# Hybrids



## Brewster320 (Oct 18, 2012)

Yep, I decided to let that cat out of the bag and open up a can of worms on a topic which can get fairly heated. I am new to tortoises so I'm not overly familiar with their hybrids, what people think about them, what issues people have with them, ect. However from being on here for a bit there's seems to be a negative vibe towards them.

While I may not be familiar with tortoise hybrids that much I do keep other animals and its interesting to see how different groups of people react to the same issue but with different animals. For example there seems to not be much of an interest in them in the lizard and aquatic turtle hobby but if one pops up people are like "Oh that interesting." And then move on with their lives. People who keep fish, cichlids mostly, seem to either like hybrid fish like blood parrots and flowerhorns or they just don't like hybrids and prefer the pure forms. And lastly people who keep snakes so far have seemed the most diverse bunch over this issues. You have the extremist who will not even do business with people who own or breed hybrids fearing that all captive lines of all species will be ruined, there's those who aren't against it but would not breed hybrids themselves and prefer other just keep them as novelty pets as well, and then you have the people who are completely for it and have breeding projects trying for new crosses and mixing up different genes and seeing how they interact with another species genes ect.

I myself do find hybrids quite interesting and I always have as well. I currently own two snake hybrids also, a creamsicle, albino corn snake (Pantherophis guttatus) x Emory's rat snake (Pantherophis emoryi), and a jungle corn, corn snake x California king snake (Lampropeltis getula californiae). I do plan on breeding some in the future and I would love to study hybrids once I get out of school as I'm switching over to a bio major next year and then hopefully get a graduates in zoology.

While I do find hybrids interesting I do understand the fear and risks with them contaminating pure lines. The creamsicle I have mentioned above is a very common hybrid in corn snakes and when it was first introduced and still today it's often sold as a pure animal and therefore many corn snakes have Emory's blood in them and its impossible to tell the pures from the hybrids unless you can trace their linage all the way back to the wild. 

Because of this I find it important to always label hybrids for what they are and to make cross that strongly stick out from one another. For example, crossing a corn with an Emory's rat snake will result in offspring looking very much like pure corns as the parent species are extremely closely related (they were even considered the same species at one point.). On the other hand crossing a corn with a king snake or a milk snake results in offspring that look nothing like pure animals and are easily spotted as hybrids.

Now I understand everyone has their own opinion and I respect that. However I know in some places hybrid discussions can get extremely heated and can result with people ready to shoot each other. I just wanted to see what everyone's opinions on tortoise hybrids and hybrids in general are, why you do or don't like them, ect.


----------



## Neal (Oct 18, 2012)

I would recommend that you use the search tool here and take a look at some of our hybrid discussions. It's been discussed and debated very heavily here and I'm sure we've all shared our opinions on one of the many threads.


----------



## CharlieM (Oct 18, 2012)

Speaking of hybrids:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=348264

Although these are really attractive I am not a fan of intentionally creating them.


----------



## StudentoftheReptile (Oct 18, 2012)

Neal said:


> I would recommend that you use the search tool here and take a look at some of our hybrid discussions. It's been discussed and debated very heavily here and I'm sure we've all shared our opinions on one of the many threads.



Ditto. Some recent ones are:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-56218.html#axzz29esi2ts5

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-45502.html#axzz29esi2ts5


----------



## wellington (Oct 18, 2012)

Ditto to all above. Against the purposely breeding if them. Not going to hate anyone that has one or likes them. However, humans are the only ones that does ruin everything!


----------



## Tom (Oct 18, 2012)

When considering this issue, it should be noted that importation is banned on many species, so no new ones are coming in. In this case, I think every effort should be made to maintain purity.


----------



## EricIvins (Oct 18, 2012)

It is really this simple - 

Keepers will keep/breed "pure" ( whatever that does mean ) animals.......

Keepers will breed Hybrids or Integrades.......

Some will only do one or the other. Some will do both.......Both "Pure" or "Hybrid/Integrade" animals will always be around. You just have to do your research when you want to find a specific species, sub-species, or whatever......It really is not that hard. However, most people take the easy way out and not do the research, then complain about how they can't find pure - insert animal here - ..........


----------



## StudentoftheReptile (Oct 18, 2012)

Tom said:


> When considering this issue, it should be noted that importation is banned on many species, so no new ones are coming in. In this case, I think every effort should be made to maintain purity.



Ditto. We have what we have. We're not getting anymore from the outside, so if we want more, we breed our own. [again, this is mainly regarding tortoises, but much of what is said about this topic can pertain to other reptiles as well]

If people continue to create hybrids, whether inadvertently due to ignorance, or deliberately in the name of "curiosity" or to make something "cool," we are muddying the gene pool, making it more and more difficult over time for anyone to find a particular species, subspecies, or even locality that is unique....just because an ignorant dealer just thinks "one box turtle is the same as another" or that they can simply make more money making a mutation from the natural phenotype of the parents. These individuals are not thinking about the endgame, the long term consequences.


----------



## Brewster320 (Oct 18, 2012)

Tom said:


> When considering this issue, it should be noted that importation is banned on many species, so no new ones are coming in. In this case, I think every effort should be made to maintain purity.



Very good point! That's also something I agree with. Mainly with animals that are not common in the hobby. If one decided to make hybrids with animals that one could find anywhere, at any show, in great numbers then that isn't going to make much of an impact on the hobby. If one does it with rare species, especially one that people have a hard time breeding in the hobby then that could have an impact on that species in the hobby and is time wasted that could have put to use trying to breed that species, especially if a female is used to produce the cross. On this point I do agreed this.


----------



## StudentoftheReptile (Oct 18, 2012)

To be perfectly honest, with the way things are going with increasingly restrictive legislation for exotics as well tighter laws for wild collection (any species from anywhere)...it will soon get to the point where everything is going to be hard to come by.

So it behooves the herp community as a whole to do what we can to preserve what we have. Even if it's "common" now, doesn't mean it will be forever. There are many examples of this I could list in the reptile trade from the past couple decades.


----------



## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 18, 2012)

Hybridizing is bad, m'kay.


----------



## WinterDB (Oct 18, 2012)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> Hybridizing is bad, m'kay.



This is the most incredible post on this entire forum.


----------



## Baoh (Oct 19, 2012)

My hybrids are going to break into your pens and breed with your stock. Right after that, they will form hybrid packs to hunt down and consume every last panda, manatee, and giggling human child.

*rubs hands together*


----------



## Terry Allan Hall (Oct 19, 2012)

Agree that intergrades/hybrids should be clearly offered as such, so that those who wish to breed "pure" lines may do so.

That being said, I'm very interested in hybrids, such as Leoocattas and cornsnake hybrids (have a corn/bullsnake hybrid, myself), particularily in whether these will be able to reproduce.


----------



## N2TORTS (Oct 19, 2012)

HYBRID TORTOISE.???? Never seen one of them before~


----------



## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 19, 2012)

N2TORTS said:


> HYBRID TORTOISE.???? Never seen one of them before~



<facepalm>


----------



## N2TORTS (Oct 19, 2012)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> N2TORTS said:
> 
> 
> > HYBRID TORTOISE.???? Never seen one of them before~
> ...



I thought it was " knuckles" ....? 

Face palm<~~~~must be a Colorado Thing


----------



## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 19, 2012)

Yes, I think it is!


----------



## fluffypanda17 (Oct 29, 2012)

Looks to me like an ornate crossed with a three toed. These were found in the wild.


----------



## RedfootsRule (Nov 27, 2012)

It's an interesting POV of maintaining purity in tortoises because of importation bans. I definitely support bans on importation of any kind. However, in some ways I still find hybridization pretty interesting. And given the difficulty, and the vast amount of wild animals of the species people are going to actually TRY with, I don't see much wrong with it. For example, those with pyxis planicauda are experienced enough not to try to hybridize them; what I'm saying is, the tortoises that would be threatened by lack of purity aren't going to be hybridized. And as has been stated, regardless, we will still know what we have. There will be hybrids and pures. Also, there will always be hundreds (maybe thousands) of pure breeders out there. If your against hybridization, keep breeding pures and there won't be a problem.


----------

