# Legalize Torts!



## Raymo2477 (Dec 4, 2012)

Is there any movement to get the US ban on the selling of torts under 4" SCL?

I think the law hurts captive breeding programs and ensures that mostly imported torts are sold.

I know I want to breed my Hermann's tortoises but I wouldn't want to wait the years it would take to get them to legal size before selling them. Besides the cost to maintain them would mean I'd ask like $200-300 for them.

I get that back in the 1970's there was a huge problem (and there still is) with the selling of cheap hatchling red eared sliders. This lead to animal abuse by unprepared owners and maybe a few cases of salmonella.

Now that people are more educated the law seems out if date and besides if you go to flea markets and reptile shows and people are illegally selling 1,000's of red eared sliders and other turtles.

They would great help the captive bred movement by overturning this law.

And there ends my rant.


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## BowandWalter (Dec 4, 2012)

It's a mostly unenforced law. As long as you "The seller" put that it's only for Scientific or Educational purposes, nothing seems to happen. Many of the for sale ads on this forum are for hatchlings, just browse through and see what people write.


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## Neal (Dec 4, 2012)

There is, or was, a lot of effort put forth by Richard Fife. Here is a link to his page that you might find informative:

http://ivorytortoise.com/information/four_inch_tortoise.php


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## theTurtleRoom (Dec 4, 2012)

I don't think it impacts the captive bred movement at all. There are plenty of exceptions to the law that enable people to breed their animals and move the babies along.

As long as you openly state you are not selling them as PETS (i.e. for Scientific, Educational, or between Hobbyists), you're in the clear. I've been vending at a PA show selling hatchlings with the FDA visiting, and nothing happened because all the proper steps were taken.

I think the law more impacts which species are normally available in the pet trade. One of the reasons Sliders, Cooters, Miss, Ouachita, and False Maps are the most common aquatics in the pet trade, is because they'll often reach 4" within a year. And they're farmed, not wild-caught. Same can be said for most of the sulcatas and redfoots in the pet trade. Sadly, the same can not be said for the russians and others seen.


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## Spn785 (Dec 4, 2012)

If I'm not mistaken the law was actually created because of the belief that the tortoises were spreading salmonella, (I believe some people were calling it epidemics) and because people were uniformed, including law makers, this law was made. There is the exception to the law that tortoises and turtles can be sold under 4" SCL if they are for Scientific or Personal Education or Research. Technically speaking you cannot sell a hatchling tortoise as a pet, it is for Personal Education. I may be mistaken, but I am pretty sure that this information is accurate.


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## acrantophis (Dec 4, 2012)

I lived in New Jersey for 31 years. Working in the pet industry for most of that time. We were not allowed to sell turtles or tortoises of any size for any reason. You could own them. Just not sell them. Still to this day you will not find chelonians for sale in New Jersey. Laws made by uninformed people tend to be stupid. It's like the python ban. You now can't bring many pythons across any state lines. Concerns of wild populations of man eating snakes. This should be relegated to the south eastern US. There is no danger of a wild python colony setting up shop in Oregon!


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## EricIvins (Dec 4, 2012)

The USDA is not going to repeal the law. Period.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Dec 4, 2012)

The 4" law applies to turtles, tortioses,and terrapins. Yes, back in the seventies there were confirmed cases of salmonella transmission between sliders and young children which in turn, led to the law. 
Unsupervised children had carried small sliders in their mouths and there were even cases of some kids drinking the title swimming water. 
As stated above, the law makes exception for education, scientific non-pet sales.




EricIvins said:


> The USDA is not going to repeal the law. Period.



The law did work.


Mind you, I think it poor practice for parents to allow their kids to share food with the family dog and that it's a good idea to wash your hands after you pet a dog.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Dec 4, 2012)

Any turtle under 4" can fit in a child's mouth. That's the reason behind the "4-inch" rule. In a nutshell, it keeps big chain pet stores from selling baby turtles. Pretty much anyone else can and often will sell them.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Dec 4, 2012)

My favorite part of the 4" law is by the letter of the law, it does not apply to marine turtles. I guess they figure if you own a 4" marine turtle, you won't be putting it in your mouth.


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## Tom (Dec 4, 2012)

This law does not pertain to private hobby breeders. It specifically says so in the text. All of us small time backyard breeders are exempt, so you can breed your hermanni and sell as many as you want as long as you don't do it as a "business".


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## Tortus (Dec 6, 2012)

As long as there are breeders, classifies/forums, and small tortoises can be legally shipped through the mail, I don't see why this law even matters. I'd rather buy one like this than from a pet shop. I wouldn't buy one from a pet shop period. Not only due to poor conditions that I've seen lots of, but you'd be paying a lot more than what a breeder charges.

Plus it's illegal to export certain species from their native countries so the only ones that can be obtained are captive bred. I believe leopards are one of them.


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## Baoh (Dec 6, 2012)

People still get dinged for/by this from time to time. I know of two warnings and one prosecution. Exercise discretion with your wording in your ads and pitches. It can help unless someone has already decided to go after you.


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