# trying to save friend's tortoise (updated 8/14)



## Rramagge (Jul 25, 2013)

Hi a family that I know has got a tortoise and they are actually the ones that got me my horsefield. They have had theirs for years and since having mine I have researched a lot (you have all been helping so massive thank u for that)
I have noticed that they don't look after him properly and the lovely grandma a few days ago said she is sure he is going to die soon. (She has always been against the daughter having a tortoise as she knows it wouldn't get looked after properly)
Ok sorry this is getting long oops, so I have made a deal with her that while the rest of her fam r on Holliday she will bring him to mine and I will try and c what needs being done. He is arriving on the weekend and I have got him for up to 4 weeks.
I was wondering if u guys could help on what you think I should do,
I was thinking to start with i should get his feces tested for parasite.
Give him soaks every day in warm water and just trying to get him on a good diet. Apparently he never really moves so I'm guessing that that's because they don't bother getting the proper heat light and UVB (that will change after I have my hands on the poor little bugger)
Just feel so sad that there is a tortoise suffering its taken me so long to b able to get the mo let me look after him. 

Sorry for such long message any suggestions would be great  

Rebecca


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## Jlant85 (Jul 25, 2013)

*RE: Please help trying to save tortoise*

First things first, QUARANTINE! you dont want your tortoise getting sick because of the other tort. I understand that your worried but worry bout yours first. From what you already said, I think you already got it down. Baby food soak, feces test (If your willing to spend the money), and then proper food/lighting. Something else i would do, talk to the family who owns him/her. Give them proper information on how to raise the tortoise. Offer to help them out. Thats what i do w/ my neighbor. Ask for permission if you can check up on the torts. I check up on my friends tortoise every week or two. =) I even bring them fresh plants that i grown =)


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## Rramagge (Jul 26, 2013)

*Please help trying to save tortoise*

Thank u  will try my best and yes I am making another tort table that after he has him i can disinfect and add to make my torts enclosure bigger 
What do I do for baby food soak?

Rebecca


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## LeopardTortLover (Jul 26, 2013)

*Re: Please help trying to save tortoise*

Do you know the age, size, and species? That would help a lot


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## Jlant85 (Jul 26, 2013)

*RE: Please help trying to save tortoise*



Rramagge said:


> Thank u  will try my best and yes I am making another tort table that after he has him i can disinfect and add to make my torts enclosure bigger
> What do I do for baby food soak?
> 
> Rebecca



This is something i do when my tortoise are sick, I buy baby food (Usually carrot) and add to the water that my torts soaks in and leave her there for 15-20 minutes. I sometimes do this even when they are not sick just for extra supplements.


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## Rramagge (Jul 26, 2013)

*Please help trying to save tortoise*

Unfortunately all I know is its a horsefield. I haven't got him yet so will measure him ASAP 
Thanx Jlant85  might treat my tort to a baby food bath as well lol


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## Jlant85 (Jul 26, 2013)

*RE: Please help trying to save tortoise*

No problem. Just keep us updated. I'll subscribe to this thread and if you can, do all your follow ups here instead of starting a new thread.


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## Rramagge (Jul 26, 2013)

*Please help trying to save tortoise*

Ok  will try remember. Will post a pic of him when he arrives


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## Jlant85 (Jul 26, 2013)

*RE: Please help trying to save tortoise*

Coolios =)


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## Rramagge (Jul 26, 2013)

*Please help trying to save tortoise*

Hi one more question do u know how much water u need to add to coconut coir ?


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## Jlant85 (Jul 26, 2013)

*RE: Please help trying to save tortoise*

are you talking bout the brick?


if so, i like to use 2-2.5 liters. The direction says 3 but it tends to be too damped. I like to start off at 2 liters then if i need to add more i can. If you go over, it gets too damn and it takes a while to dry.


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## Rramagge (Jul 26, 2013)

*Please help trying to save tortoise*

Thank you very much I have been looking everywhere to find that info lol I should just ask here in the first place


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## Jlant85 (Jul 26, 2013)

*RE: Please help trying to save tortoise*

Lol... Yeah, I actually just started using this forums about 2 months ago and just by reading up on others post, I learned a lot.


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## Rramagge (Jul 26, 2013)

*Please help trying to save tortoise*

I have a question it's one I have been asking 4 a while but still confused over it.
I need to buy new lighting, I'm thinking I will get the zoomed Powersun UVB 100w 
Which reflector/holder should I get with it?

Thanx
Rebecca


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## Jlant85 (Jul 26, 2013)

*RE: Please help trying to save tortoise*

Here is a good thread to read up on when it comes to lightings and getting ideas =)

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-32333.html


just make sure the lamp emits 100w... you can even get one that goes up to 150... if the bulb is 100 anything that goes 100 up is good... it doesnt work vice versa... you cant get a lamp holder w/ 75w and use a 100w bulb. thats just going to mess up the bulb and the holder. but to save you some money.... look at the threads i posted.


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## Rramagge (Jul 26, 2013)

*Please help trying to save tortoise*

Ok will do thanx


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## Jacqui (Jul 26, 2013)

*RE: Please help trying to save tortoise*

Does he get outside time? That would help him a lot, if he isn't getting it now.


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## Rramagge (Jul 26, 2013)

*Please help trying to save tortoise*

My one does yes not sure about the one I'm about to look after but as its England I need lights defo for the winter


Hi I couldn't really find on that link which fitting/reflector to get for the zoo med Powersun I really need advice


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## Rramagge (Jul 27, 2013)

*Please help trying to save tortoise*

Ok he has just arrived, his name is Rex.
He didn't have any lights on him, his is so dry they said he doesn't like drinking but its coz the bowl they use can hardly hold any water at all. His eyes are shut and they have said they are permanently closed. They say he is in "hibernation" which is not the case it's neglect.
Nd they also said that he never opens his bowels.

This poor tort is going to get loads of TLC


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## Rramagge (Jul 28, 2013)

*Update*

People where asking me to give an update on how the poor tortoise I.
Basic info:
He is my friends cousins horsefield, I have know they don't look after him for a while but it's been tricky asking to look after him 4 a bit. They on Holliday so the lovely grandparents have said I can look after him for 2-3 weeks (they don't thing that the fam should have ever got a tortoise coz she knows that the daughter + grand kids wouldn't look after it properly) she asked me to help because she knows it isn't well.
He arrived yesterday he didn't have any lights on him and they say he is in hibernation which he isn't. He can't open his eyest and is soooo dry.
They don't really have him in a good tort table but I can't do anything with that at the mo.
I have had the heat lamp on him and he his head just resting on the rock as he couldn't really lift it but he literally just tufted it a tiny so I'm hoping the warmth is helping a bit. I'm going to give home a baby food soak soon to c if that helps his eyes and to hydrate him. 
Will be doing that every day for the week do u think that's right?
Going to change the substrate as its crawling with wood lice.
Any suggestions for what else I should do? Or if I have said anything wrong please correct me
Thanx

Here is a pic of him then a pic of my tort spot the difference (can't believe how dry the shell looks)




Oh and please don't have a go at me for the lights. The mvb bulb is on its way but post taking a while.
Could you also recommend in the uk what the best reflector/holder for the Powersun 100w is? In not sure if I should get the zoo med one or not


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## Jlant85 (Jul 28, 2013)

*RE: Update*

baby food soak sounds good like i told you before. I would probably start him off w/ food that he might like such as romaine, red and green lettuce. Just to get him going. Then start introducing other foods like kale, mustard greens and other spring mix. Can you take a close up picture of his face? Just want to see his eyes and nose.


Oh dont place him anywhere near your tortoise!


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## Rramagge (Jul 28, 2013)

*Update*

Will take pic in min
Is that to close? Even if they in dif enclosures? 
Nd ok sorry I didn't c that u had said that b4, should I feed him after wash or b4?


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## Jlant85 (Jul 28, 2013)

*RE: Update*

I just wouldn't risk it. Since we don't know whats wrong w/ him i would probably separate them a little further. Hows his poop? or have ever even seen him poop?


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## Rramagge (Jul 28, 2013)

*Update*

He hasn't gone yet and they said they haven't seen him go for a while.
That's why I was thinking the soak ASAP coz I'm guessing when u not been in a while u wouldn't want to eat anyway


Once I changed the soil do u think I should not put anything else in with it to keep it as sterile as poss for his eyes?


Bit blurry sorry





It's like they r fused closed


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## Jlant85 (Jul 28, 2013)

*RE: Update*

Yeah i would start the soak asap. sorry man im ready to fall asleep but i cant and work is killing me.


his skin looks dry too! his dehydrated.


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## Rramagge (Jul 28, 2013)

*Update*

Oh really sorry I forget that practically everyone else is in dif time.
Will let u no how he is later


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## Jlant85 (Jul 28, 2013)

*RE: Update*

Lol its all good. im at work so i cant sleep. this is the only thing that's keeping me up!


So if i happened to type any typos, excuse me. Im just very sleepy!


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## Rramagge (Jul 28, 2013)

*Update*

Ohhh lol unlucky. Suggestion: Say u r having a private meeting nd sleep  

And u no the pic of the torts eyes do u think there any chance they could open?


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## Rramagge (Jul 28, 2013)

*Need help (swollen eyes/shell rot?)*

As u have prob seen in other posts I some I trying to save a tortoise.

Is this shell rot/ fungus or just v v v dehydrated (I know it's defo dehydrated so he is in baby food soak at the mo)

View attachment 50288
View attachment 50289



Oh and this pic is how bad his eyes are


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## Jlant85 (Jul 28, 2013)

*Need help*

Poor little guy. Ever though of adopting him? I highly recommend it. I would talk to the owner of that tort if I were you. Not to get you in trouble. But apparently he's been neglected.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 28, 2013)

*RE: Need help*

The way you tell if a tortoise is dehydrated is first looking at the eyes. The eyes will be sunken in. You really can't tell by looking at the shell. I don't see what you're seeing in the picture that has you thinking "fungus." But shell rot/fungus usually starts on the bottom (plastron) from sitting in dirt or wet substrate. 

If you don't see any improvement in three days after the baby food soaks, then I suggest the tortoise needs to see a qualified tortoise vet. But don't allow any vitamin A injections.


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## Rramagge (Jul 28, 2013)

*Need help*

Ok thank u. Tbh I only said shell tort coz u can't c properly in the pic but its v bad.
U can't c the eyes coz he can't open them.
I will c how he is over the next few days 


I know it was dehydrated because the owners said it never drinks and they rarely wash him


They said he "doesn't like water" 
What a load of rubbish


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## Jlant85 (Jul 28, 2013)

*Need help*

Yvonne, the tort can't even open his eyes. I really think he should see a vet but that's not his tort. He's just helping someone out. (Mad props to you bro!)


Start out with the baby food soak. Make sure the water is warm. Place his food in a warm saucer and don't hover around him while he eats so he don't get frightened. Let him feel comfortable. Keep a temperature of 90+ basking and cooler end at 75.


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## Sulcata_Sandy (Jul 28, 2013)

*Need help*

Jlant85 is spot on.

Soak in 30 min twice a day in warm water, being careful to not let the temp get to cold. I used my bath tub, and just checked on the water, emptied a bit and refilled with warm. I left him alone most of the time as adding any stress compromises the immune system. So please limit handing.

Make sure his environment is extremely warm...90Â°. This will not only help is digestion and immune system, but also help kill any possible bacteria. It won't kill all bacteria, but will help.

I agree, a qualified veterinarian is needed. Call around and give them your situation. I've been a tech 20+ years (ugh, just dated myself), and most GOOD practices will work with you. They might discount the exam fee, or have you pay full exam fee but work with you on Rx's. I can help too. So please, at least get him examined so we know what is going on. Thankfully you are doing an excellent job with supportive care. 
Get him seen, I'd be happy to give you my number/email and if he needs expensive drugs, I can prob help get them at cost or at least a much better price.

And this goes for anyone on this forum. There are a few other vet techs on this list that I'm sure would love to help as well. I don't work with these guys much, but one of our associates is a reptile expert and we plan to have an exotic side to the practice. Since Mo wandered into our lives, we are also focusing on Torts. I've learned HUGE amounts in the past 2 weeks. Incredible creatures. And they have my heart now.

Blow him a kiss, and please let us know what you decide.
You are an angel. I want to hug you!!!!!


Sandy in Oregon
.....................................................
Schlomo the rescue Sulcata
Dexter and Lola (Basenjis)
Sent from my iPad using TortForum mobile app




Yvonne G said:


> If you don't see any improvement in three days after the baby food soaks, then I suggest the tortoise needs to see a qualified tortoise vet. But don't allow any vitamin A injections.



Why no Vit A? Also, do DVMs seem to just do this regularly?
Curious, especially since we are opening up our practice to these guys now. If the textbook instructs us as part of a treatment protocol, and I say to Dr "you can't give Vit A", he's not going to accept the response of "because I read it online,". LOL

THANKS!!!!!



Sandy in Oregon
.....................................................
Schlomo the rescue Sulcata
Dexter and Lola (Basenjis)
Sent from my iPad using TortForum mobile app


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## Rramagge (Jul 28, 2013)

*Need help*

Aw thanx guys 
It's so hard finding a vet that specialises in tort nd I haven't been able to find one for my own tort yet. If last resort can I tace him to my local vet?
I will keep u all informed and I may b asking more questions (just warning u  )
My thermometer/hygrometer still hasn't arrived so I'm using a crappy thermometer at the mo (kind of guess work) I'm trying my best tho


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## Yvonne G (Jul 28, 2013)

*RE: Need help*

I don't really know why the dosage is wrong, but some vets inject the vitamin a,d,e shot and there is too much vitamin a in it. This causes the turtle/tortoise's skin to slough off. Then it gets infected and the animal usually dies. Vitamin A is one of the vitamins that is fairly easy to get into a tortoise via his food, so the injection isn't really necessary.


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## Sulcata_Sandy (Jul 28, 2013)

*Need help*

Thanks! I will make a note in our texts about the Vit A.


Sandy in Oregon
.....................................................
Veterinary Technician, 21 years of critter luvin'
Schlomo aka "Mo" the rescue Sulcata, "man without a face"
Dexter and Lola (Basenjis...show dogs extraordinare)

No kids, no husband, just critters and I'm happy.
Sent from my iPad using TortForum mobile app


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## Rramagge (Jul 28, 2013)

*Need help*

Pics taken after first baby food soak earlier



he moved a tiny bit after it which is better than nothing I guess. Hopefully after more soaks tomorrow he will have more strength nd hopefully going to call a vet nd c if we can take him in to b seen


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## WillTort2 (Jul 28, 2013)

*RE: Please help trying to save tortoise*

Good luck.


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## Jlant85 (Jul 28, 2013)

*RE: Need help*

How is his eyes? did he open them at least? Im rooting for you man! LIke what SenjiSandy said, try doing it twice a day. One in the morning and one at night. While he is soaking, that is when i would prep his food (warm up his saucer/food dish and cut up the lettuce or what ever im feeding that day).


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## mainey34 (Jul 28, 2013)

*RE: Need help*

I also will agree with soaking 2 times a day. With the increase temps he will dry out, so therefore it is necessary.
Senjisandy...my experience with vitamin A injection in a box turtle with a RI, was the skin reacted like it was burned. It just melted right off my poor boxie. It was the most awful thing. I know she suffered.she wouldn't eat or drink, we had to tube feed her. She never did make it. They said she had a Vitamin A overdose.


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## Rramagge (Jul 29, 2013)

*Need help*

Ok thanx will do the two soaks a day 
How long do u reckon it should b 4?
No, unfortunately eyes did not open at all but after being like that for I'm guessing years I'm worried they won't open. Can torts survive with no sight?
 hopefully after more soaks it will help
Oh last thing should the two soaks a day both baby soaks?

Thanx everyone for helping


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## Jlant85 (Jul 29, 2013)

*RE: Need help*

Wow! try the tortoise eye drop.


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## Rramagge (Jul 29, 2013)

*Need help*

What ones?


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## Rramagge (Jul 29, 2013)

*Need help*

Ok an update
Tomorrow we r taking both tortoises to a vet that has one guy that knows about tortoises  hope it doesn't get to expensive coz don't have much money so dont no if will be able to pay for all of there tortoise meds
Atleast we can get him checked out


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## Rramagge (Jul 29, 2013)

*Need help*

I have just got one of these I hope it's right


So he can have more heat


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## Rramagge (Jul 30, 2013)

*Need help*

UPDATE:
ok so Rex has been to the vet he actually has 3 torts himself so knows loads which is great.
He is sure that Rex is blind but can't b certain until we find out if his eyes have ever been open.
He has calcium deficient and needs 16 hours uvb a day.
We have to try force feeding him with a mix that we where given. 
Apparently he prob so lethargic coz they start using their skeleton for the calcium and breaking it up.
We have to make sure temps r exact for hot side nd cold side.
I think that's it 
Oh and guess what.... I think the car journey stressed him loads which was bad but it meant he opened his bowels which he hasn't done in ages.


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## sissyofone (Jul 30, 2013)

*Re: Need help*

Hoping and Praying and sending positive vibes yalls way.


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## Rramagge (Jul 30, 2013)

*Need help (swollen eyes/shell rot?)*

Thank you


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## samsmom (Jul 31, 2013)

*RE: Need help (swollen eyes/shell rot?)*

oh such a sad story, i hope and pray he gets better soon, keep up the soaks so hopefully he will regain some strength to fight!


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Jul 31, 2013)

*RE: Need help (swollen eyes/shell rot?)*

The carapace seems fine (he just seems like a wild-caught tortoise, which often have healthy but rough-looking shells). As for the eyes, here's a relevant TFO thread:

"Puffy eyes: common causes"


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## Rramagge (Jul 31, 2013)

*Need help (swollen eyes/shell rot?)*

Thank you, I went to the vet yesterday. Apparently he has calcium deficiency nd his body had started to use his skeleton for calcium.
Not sorted eyes yet so will have a look at that thanx 
Thankfully my tort is v health just need to sort this little one out now (ok not so little lol)


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## Rramagge (Aug 9, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

Hi I have previously post about Rex the horsefield tortoise that is my friends but wasn't looked after properly so I am looking after him. He has got a lot stronger but still having problems with his eyes. To begin with the swelling was so bad and they just looked like they where completely fused but the swelling has now reduced a little and on occasions he has tried to open them but still can't. Do you have any suggestions as to what I could use on them? I'm still doing the baby food soaks and someone mentioned outing coiner oil on his eyes which I have now done for 5 days.
Pleas help any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Also I have been using coco coir for a few weeks now, how do I keep it damp? Is it ok to poor water in and mic it up or is there another way. I have an open topped enclosure and can't get another one at the min.

Thanx
Rebecca


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## Yvonne G (Aug 9, 2013)

*RE: Need help with torts eyes*

I really like Terramycin Opthalmic Ointment, but it's hard to find:






My second choice is easier to find and ALMOST as good:


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## wellington (Aug 9, 2013)

*RE: Need help with torts eyes*

For humidity, be sure your temps are correct, humid and cold, not good. Hot and humid is. To help with humidity, cover the enclosure 1/2 to all the way. Be sure you are getting the right humidity for your species though.


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## Rramagge (Aug 9, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

Thank you I will try nd look for them.



Could I cover half of it with like bubble wrap until I can get something else?


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## johnsonnboswell (Aug 9, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

Collyrium for Fresh Eyes is available over the counter and makes a good eyewash. It won't cure an infection - you need ophthalmic antibiotic for that - but it helps unglue the eyes.


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## Rramagge (Aug 9, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

Thanx should I use both?


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## johnsonnboswell (Aug 9, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

No, I'd just use one. Probably doesn't matter which. If you do have to put antibiotic ointment in, it will still help as an opener. 

Keep soaking in water , drip water over the eyes, then use the drops.


Yes, you can pour water into the substrate & rake it in with a tool or your fingers.


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## Rramagge (Aug 9, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

Thank v much  I hope u don't mind if I need any more info asking u 
Don't want to b a pest lol


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## johnsonnboswell (Aug 10, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

Ask away. 

You might try a moistened q tip to help gently unseal the eyes. I wouldn't use oil because it could be another irritant. Just water or eyewash. 

I have to ask you this: apart from the eyes , does this tortoise seem healthy to you? If not, see a vet ASAP. If so, treat it as an irritation problem.


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## Rramagge (Aug 10, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

No that's y I have practically begged them to let me look after him while they on holiday.
He was a mess everything wrong if u look at one of my older posts I explain everything that was wrong.
He is hydrated now. He has been opening his bowels a few times but its rock hard.
B4 he couldn't hold his head up or anything which he can now. The vet said there loads of things wrong but he said he didn't think he had eyes but I found a pic of when I looked after him last time nd he had them open nd looked ok. Vet also said he thinks he's calcium deficient but he not eating so having to force feed this liquid food.
He is now swallowing it which he hardly did b4 it would just dribble out


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## johnsonnboswell (Aug 10, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

Yikes. Good for you for taking care of him. 

Got a good UVB light?

You're keeping that RT, right? Good care can go a long way even after serous neglect, so don't give up.


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## Rramagge (Aug 10, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

I have a Powersun 100w which is mvb bulb

Unfortunately we r unsure as to what's going to happen they r back from holiday in a week and think they will want him back if they do I will give them STRICT instructions as to what to do.

Thanx  I'm trying my best don't want the little guy to go 

This was him when he first came a week and a half ago




Few days after



This was him a few days ago

he had just had a soak but the swelling is down a little I think.





Poor guy


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## lynnedit (Aug 10, 2013)

*RE: Need help with torts eyes*

Good grief, can't they look at him and realize he is in a bad way? 
I sure hope they consider giving him to you, poor thing. If not, visit him weekly!

Must be a combination of poor substrate (dry), dehydration and nutritional deficiencies. 
If he is eating, make sure you add a supplement, calcium with D3 at this point, 3-4x per week. You can also add a squirt of bird vitamins to the baby food soaks.
By the way, Nutrabol ("A high potency calcium balancer and multivitamin supplement") is an excellent supplement to use, we just don't see that brand in the US.

Get Saline rinse for eyes and squirt that over his eyes whenever you can, at least twice per day.
Ask the vet for some antibiotic eye ointment and smear that on gently twice per day.

With adequate lighting, nutrition, hydration and eye care, you will have covered all of your bases.

Finally, if you can get him outside in the sun (under strict observation) for even 1/2 hour per day, that can help with healing.


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## Rramagge (Aug 10, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

I know apparently his dad had spoken to someone on the phone as to how to look after him. He didn't even have lights on him.
I have occasionally had him outside in the enclosure that he is in so he doesn't get stressed with the change and being picked up more than he needs.
He can't eat himself at mo we having to force feed him a liquid food that vet gave me.
It's also quite hard coz I'm actually ill I have been ill for 5 years and am bedbound. I'm 17, my parents r helping me out soo much with the torts. 
I find out what needs being done then they do it  they r learning quickly lol if they don't do something right they soon hear it  just want the best for the torts 

I will try get saline for eyes and the antibiotic stuff. Will it b expensive? At the mo I paying for everything for my tort and this one nd I know vets aren't to cheap.


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## lynnedit (Aug 10, 2013)

*RE: Need help with torts eyes*

Saline eye wash is inexpensive in the US. The antibiotic ointment is hard to say: I am sure it doesn't cost the vet much, but sometimes there are mark ups. Perhaps let the vet know that you are helping a rescue, he might give it to you at cost?

Wow, you have a lot on your own plate, and here you are helping a little tortoise too.


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## Rramagge (Aug 10, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

Yeah I will email the vet.
Thanx
Lol I know it's a good distraction from pain nd stuff.  I will b happy if we can just get his eyes open for a start coz then hopefully he will eat coz he would c the food and walk a bit more 
Thanx 4 your help


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## lynnedit (Aug 10, 2013)

*RE: Need help with torts eyes*

You're welcome! Please keep us posted.


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## Kate2013 (Aug 10, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

Thank you for taking care of this poor tortoise!! Hope you are feeling better yourself, too! Hugs


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## johnsonnboswell (Aug 10, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

The owners of that tortoise have neglected it terribly. I don't know who the proper authorities to report animal abuse are in your area - but you should find out. Not that them confiscating the tortoise would save its life, but it might be a useful thing to know. In a kind and gentle way, not confrontational, you should refuse to give it back because letting them kill it is not a good option. You may need your parents in on this. And a host of care sheets ready. Perhaps pointing out what the tortoise needs in the way of equipment & vet care & nutrition may convince them that they don't want the responsibility of the animal, or its death.


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## GBtortoises (Aug 11, 2013)

*RE: Need help with torts eyes*

Swollen, puffy eyes are usually a symptom of vitamin A deficiency not just dry conditions. While too dry of an environmental may be aggravating the situation, it is doubtful that it's the cause. Eyes that are fused close, slightly swollen or sunken from dry environmental conditions can be "cured" with a few applications of some type of moistener and increasing the overall humidity (amibient and substrate) along with regular access to drinking water. Severely swollen, puffy eyes are very likely the result of severe vitamin deficiency, especially vitamin A, due to insufficient lighting (lack of UV) and poor diet.


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## Rramagge (Aug 11, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

What would u suggest to put on the eyes then?


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## Teodora'sDAD (Aug 11, 2013)

*RE: Need help with torts eyes*



Yvonne G said:


> I really like Terramycin Opthalmic Ointment, but it's hard to find:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Love this brand! works great on my horses too! lol


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## lynnedit (Aug 11, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

You can't treat vitamin deficiency with a topical eye treatment. 
That is where the feedings and soaks come in. There is some thought the tortoise absorbs nutrients through the cloaca, and also certainly if he drinks. 
That is the reason for adding bird vits and baby food like carrot or sweet potato which are higher in vitamin A. 
The vet has you tube feeding, right, because he is not eating? 
So your current care addresses the likely Vit A deficiency.

Meanwhile, might as well do everything you can, saline rinse, antibiotic ointment, etc., as poor conditions like dryness probably contributed to his symptoms too.


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## Rramagge (Aug 11, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

No the vet has got us force feeding with syringe opening his mouth then putting tiny bit in at a time nd he swallows it.
He said if that didn't work he would do tube but we would have to give rex to him.


We have something called critical care the powder that u mix with water


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## lynnedit (Aug 11, 2013)

*RE: Need help with torts eyes*

Well, either way, what you are giving him likely has vitamins and nutrients to help with a vitamin A deficiency.
If you can get enough in, and the syringe feedings are not too difficult, then tube feeding won't be necessary.
And the soaks will help, even if he isn't drinking a lot.

Has he urinated?


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## Rramagge (Aug 11, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

He has once or twice and opened bowels about 4 times now but each time it's rock hard


We r only able to get 5ml 3times a day of the feed down him at the mo but even with what we are doing he is better than when he first came


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## lynnedit (Aug 11, 2013)

*RE: Need help with torts eyes*

He is a lot better off with you. That's 15cc per day, it is something. See what the vet says about the volume, too.
Keep up the soaks, perhaps twice per day. At least once with the strained carrots or sweet potato.

And I agree with johnsonnboswell that his care was definitely neglect/abuse. Also not sure what you do about it, besides explain how ill he is, and what you have been doing about it.


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## Rramagge (Aug 11, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

Mum said when she fed him just now he was much feistier nd trying to pull at the syringe which he not been doing b4


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## ascott (Aug 11, 2013)

*RE: Need help with torts eyes*

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2752624

I have heard of folks using this product on the eye as well as in their food offerings to give a short term boost of vitamin a (again, not as a permanent supplement but as an aid to help your tort get a boost of it to aid in the eye issue)....

I know that a forum member here used vitamin a turtle drops to get his russian jump started out of brumation when they came out with swollen puffy eyes,.....


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## lynnedit (Aug 11, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

Whoo hoo


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## Rramagge (Aug 11, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

Lynnedit lol

Nd will have a look thanx


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## AnnV (Aug 11, 2013)

*Re: Need help with torts eyes*

If you have some general antibiotic ointment around the house, you can use that until you get the terramycin. It is the same as the more expensive eye ointment just thicker petroleum base. You can get terramycin through most online pet supplies or even Ebay. It costs around $15 US. Once his eyes open, you would need the eye ointment becausevyou can't really dab the thick stuff in the eye. 
The very tiniest amount of a petroleum based ointment will do. Since he can't open his eyes, anyway, I would just take a folded tissue slightly dampened with the abx ointment and barely touch the tissue to the eyelids. Just dab it lightly. It kind of spreads on contract. 
Poor guy. I hope you can keep him. But if not, please make up a list of needed supplies. They may not bother otherwise, or forget.
Have you tried feeding him normal fresh foods yet? Sounds like he is ready. I would chop it up for him so he doesn't have to chase and struggle with whole pieces.
You are his savior! 

Ann from CT


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## Rramagge (Aug 11, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

Will try get that stuff not sure if we got anything in the house will ask mum tho.
They have asked me to give them the sort of price it will b and then they will decide if they can get it all but they have told me to go ahead with lights nd stuff like that. The gran is lovely I have know her since really young nd she didn't think they should have got him in the first place. 
They meant no harm but just didn't know what they doing nd got the wrong advice. 
They r nice people but just need being told what to do nd going to write what need being done. If its to much for them I will welcome him/her (sure it's female but they said male) into the family 
I may have to persuade dad tho lol


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## ILoveTortoises2 (Aug 11, 2013)

*RE: Need help with torts eyes*

Yeah you need to keep this poor tortoise. He is way better in your care then their care. How sad. I would report animal abuse if I were you. I would NOT give them the tortoise back either and if they call the cops show the cops ALL the things you had to do to get him back to good health and your still trying get him to 100% Keep up the good work hun.


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## lynnedit (Aug 11, 2013)

*RE: Need help with torts eyes*

I've used the Zoomed drops on a tortoise who was previously in bad conditions with puffy eyes. But this tortoise was able to eat, not as bad off as this tortoise.

I agree about using a general antibiotic ointment, that and the saline rinse. Trying to keep expenses down for you, given you are taking on the care of this tortoise w/o knowing if you get to keep it.

Mainly I believe that he needs hydration and nutrition. Hopefully he will start nibbling soon: you might try offering him some chopped greens (might have to hold them up to his nose), prior to the next syringe feeding. Once he takes those, you can sprinkle a little Nutrabol on them.


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## johnsonnboswell (Aug 11, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

Maybe you can find some flowers to feed him. Rose of Sharon is good & may be in bloom where you live. Mine eat fallen blooms, so maybe you can gather some from neighbors if you know they don't spray.


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## Rramagge (Aug 12, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

Rex can't eat for himself at the mo he has to have liquid supplement stuff we do try giving him flowers and we have tried cucumber coz although its not the best food it's soft and the vet said to try the softest things first


Lynnedit I will try that  thnx


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## AnnV (Aug 12, 2013)

*Re: Need help with torts eyes*

Yes, mine will go for cukes every time. And cukes are anti inflammatory, so if he will eat them, I say go for it.

Ann from CT


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## Rramagge (Aug 14, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*

Ok bad news guys thought u would all like to know as u have been helping me out so much.
Mum called a vet that works at a zoo he is an amazing reptile vet and we explained everything that's going on with Rex. He said unfortunately there is no going back he has (something) herpes I can't remember the first bit.
He said the reason he is becoming more feisty and like he is getting better is actually coz he is getting worse, his body and insides have had enough and can't go on much longer.
He said we need to get him back to the owners ASAP as could pass it to mine. Going to completely disinfect everything with f10 as he has advised.
He said that the owners can have him kept in a vet nd they will try to keep him alive but the chances are v slim otherwise it's a case of them keeping him till he passes away 

I tried my best but there is nothing more I can do


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## lynnedit (Aug 14, 2013)

*RE: Need help with torts eyes*

I am amazed that the Vet can make the diagnosis by phone. Wouldn't they need cultures?

In any case, you made an effort. Please talk with his owners so that they care for him and take him to a reptile vet to confirm this.


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## Rramagge (Aug 14, 2013)

*Rex to unwell*

Hi for anyone that has been following and helping me out with my friends ill horsefield tortoise Rex I have sad news. We have spoken to two vets today and they both have said he has herpes.
They have told us we need to give him back to owners as soon as pos coz we don't want it getting to my tort.
They have given two options 
1.pay hundreds of pounds to have him sent to a specialist vet and they try to look after him but he has a v slim chance of surviving 
2.he is given an overdose of ketamine (I think it's that drug) and he is put down. 

It is completely up to my friends cousins family to make the deduction but I think they are going to go with putting him down.

Dad has just left to take him back  we tried our best and I hope I did everything that I could have done to keep him at least more comfortable.

The owners will prob talk to the vet tomorrow but I will defo make sure they keep the heat on him at the mo to keep him as comfortable as possible. I have sent him back with the lights I was using and depending on what their decision is I will get them back whenever they don't need them anymore.

Sorry it's such a long post but really sad and just wanted everyone that has helped me to know what's going on.

Thanx for all your support
Becks


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## theelectraco (Aug 14, 2013)

*Need help with torts eyes*



lynnedit said:


> I am amazed that the Vet can make the diagnosis by phone. Wouldn't they need cultures?
> 
> In any case, you made an effort. Please talk with his owners so that they care for him and take him to a reptile vet to confirm this.



I think mr. reptile expert vet is no expert on tortoises. Herpes? Not saying its impossible but I haven't heard of any tortoises having herpes since being on the forums.


0.1.0 Dachshund
0.0.1 Redfoot
1.0.0 Greek


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## theelectraco (Aug 14, 2013)

*Rex to unwell*

What were the symptoms of the tortoise and what were you guys doing as treatment?


0.1.0 Dachshund
0.0.1 Redfoot
1.0.0 Greek


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## Rramagge (Aug 14, 2013)

*Rex to unwell*

If u look back at old posts I have done you can see its long to explain


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## luvpetz27 (Aug 14, 2013)

I have never heard of a tortoise having Herpes!! The STD herpes?
Has anyone heard of such a thing?


I just did some research and tortoises can get herpes. It is not the same as human herpes tho. This is very sad. I am so sorry. You did everything u could.


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## Rramagge (Aug 14, 2013)

Thanx I tried so hard to save him but they had had him in the wrong conditions for way 2 long


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## Jlant85 (Aug 14, 2013)

Holy **** I fell off the wagon for a second and hasn't been on the forum in a while. The hell happened?


Lol so sorry too lazy to read on my phone.


God Rex looks horrid. Pure sign of neglect. Did you talk to the family of that tort? I swear I wouldn't even give them back! Not to get you in any trouble but explain to them the situation. And if they question you, show them the vet bills! I just attempted a rescue myself. A cherry head but I was too late also. So sad. Poor gal had septic.


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## pepsiandjac (Aug 14, 2013)

I found this about herpes,


Herpes Virus Infections in Pet Trade Tortoises - A Warning

Herpes is an extremely serious, usually fatal disease in tortoises. It should not be confused with herpes-virus infection in humans, which is a relatively mild condition. In chelonia, herpes-virus infection can cause massive lesions, swelling, respiratory distress, hepatitis and subsequent death. Affected animals may also suffer from concurrent fungal, bacterial and protozoan infections, presumably as a result of a compromised immune system. There is no effective treatment at present. Mortality once advanced symptoms appear is typically 100%.

This disease is contagious. A single affected animal can infect others that come into contact with it. Direct contact involving shared feeding, or contact with an affected animalâ€™s bodily fluids or excretions is particularly dangerous. Such situations, this disease can spread rapidly through an entire tortoise collection and there are many reports in the veterinary literature that support the view that should that occur, 100% mortality can be expected (see below). Certainly, in all the cases we have seen, there have been no long-term survivors once advanced symptoms commence.

There are a number of points which at present remain unclear.

The first is the â€˜incubationâ€™ time from infection to the time when first symptoms appear. There is evidence that this may be measured in years. In one case, the tortoise did not develop serious symptoms for 10 years following exposure. Most cases, however, do develop very much more rapidly. Throughout this period the infected animal can be shedding virus that can in turn infect others. Such animals may display no outward sign that they are infected.

The second question to which at present we do not have an answer is whether the Herpesvirus detected is primary, or is itself secondary to an as yet unidentified causal organism. Several different viral pathogens have been identified as possible agents.

The most important thing that keepers can do is to maintain strict quarantine of all existing stock. On no account introduce other animals of unknown origins, and especially animals of trade origin. Because of the way in which trade animals are both exposed to multiple contacts with other tortoises, and are subject to high levels of stress, these tortoises are exceptionally high risk. Unfortunately, six or even eighteen months quarantine is completely inadequate when confronting a viral disease of this nature. The only effective solution is not to allow contact on a permanent basis. Feeding together, fighting or mating are highly effective routes for transmission.

Good hygeine measures are also essential. Wash hands thoroughly between handling tortoises. Do not share feeding utensils. Avoid spreading particles from one pen or enclosure to another. Wear disposable latex gloves when handling sick tortoises. Dilute bleach is an effective disinfecting agent for utensils, etc.

It should be noted that herpes has now been diagnosed in tortoises purchased from online dealers in the UK. We would strongly recommend that you do not buy such imports as they are at extremely high risk of being carriers of this devastating disease. If you do buy them please see the FAQ below for recommended handling procedures.

Do ensure that you obtain a written statement of the origins of any animals that you do purchase in advance (import or UK captive-bred) as knowing the origins of an animal is vital to forming an accurate risk assessment. We would not advise relying upon verbal assurances. While some sources are honest, others are not, and may present wild-caught imports as captive-bred in this country. If someone is reluctant to provide a written assurance of origin you should treat this with suspicion. An honest breeder or dealer will have no problem with such a request.


Symptoms in the tortoise recently diagnosed included severe lesions with blisters, diphteresis of the tongue and pharynx, oedema, and puffy eyes. The tortoise did not eat voluntarily since it was purchased. Ultimately, euthanasia was advised, but death from the infection ocurred first.



FAQ

We have added this Frequently Asked Questions section to deal with some of the misinformation on this topic circulating on the internet.

Q. Is it true that the Tortoise Trust is claiming that there is a Herpes epidemic among imported tortoises?

A. No. Absolutely not. What we have actually said - repeatedly - is that such animals should be regarded as "high risk". The reasons for this are fairly obvious when you consider the number of animals involved in these imports, their inevitable close contact with each other during holding and transit, the levels of stress they are subjected to (stress has been suggested as an agravating factor in chelonian herpes), and the difficulty of establishing and tracing any contacts. With any contagious or infectious disease these factors inevitably amplify risk.

Q. Is it appropriate to warn of such a danger on the basis of only a few suspected or confirmed cases?

Yes. Firstly, for a tortoise to manifest with advanced symptoms and die within a few weeks of purchase it is beyond any doubt whatsoever that that animal has been actively shedding infective live virus particles in huge numbers for months. Any other tortoise that contacts those particles is highly likely to have acquired the disease. The "incubation time", from first infection to first symptoms appearing can be very extended: months or even years. Throughout that time, though appearing outwardly healthy, those animals themelves shed live virus and are highly contagious. This tends to create a false sense of security for keepers. 

Dealer's and shipper's premises are not geared to disease control and 
prevention. Large numbers of animals are in very close proximity and even physical contact. As such, they are a very effective amplification mechanism for infectious and contagious diseases. You only need one animal shedding virus particles in that environment to infect hundreds or even thousands. That is why even a single case is important and should not be underestimated or dismissed.

Q. Should I be worried?

A. We would prefer to say that you should be concerned. The wisest course of action is to assume the worst and hope for the best. Take extra precautions and be particularly careful of "holiday homing", tortoise meetings where animals are present, breeding loans, etc.

Q. Can this affect humans? Am I in any danger myself?

A. There is no evidence to suggest that at all.

Q. Does it just affect Russian tortoises?

A. No. It has been recorded in many species. See list of references. It can also "jump the species barrier" between different tortoises.

Q. What would happen if this did get into my collection of tortoises?

A. We can only refer you to an actual case history reported by one of our members and subsequently reported in the veterinary literature. The consequences are extremely serious and far-reaching. That is why we take such a strong stand on this subject. We have also seen this ourselves at first hand. To those who allege that the Tortoise Trust is "scaremongering" on this topic, we simply urge you to read the above.

Q. Is this new, or has this happened before?

A. The first recorded cases date back more than 20 years. In fact, as long ago as 1989 the Tortoise Trust was the first organisation in the world to specifically highlight the potential importance of viral diseases to tortoise keepers and to issue specific guidelines to avoid cross infection. We were also the first organisation to highlight the dangers of mixing different species. So, this is not "new". The threat has been there for some time and outbreaks have been reported from all over the world, including Japan, the US, South Africa and throughout Europe (see the list of references below for some specific examples). What is relatively new is the vast surge in imports of questionable origins and in such a situation, the danger of wider disemination of such diseases increases exponentially. With reduced animal movements, the risk decreases.

Q. Can this travel through the air?

A. Not directly. It is contagious rather than infectious. What that means is that some form of physical contact or transfer is required. In the latter case, faecal material, or contaminated feeding equipment, or transfer of substrate should be regarded as a possible way to spread the disease. Precautions to eliminate this possibility should be undertaken. We have some practical suggestions written by a qualified microbiologist on the veterinary section of this website.

Q. Is it true that only tortoises from dealer's might be affected? What about rescue centres? What about animals from UK breeders?

There is some element of risk with all tortoises, from any source. It is only the degree of risk that varies. At the lowest end would be a single tortoise that has been in isolation for very many years without ever being mixed with others. For example, a 'pet tortoise' obtained 30 years ago and kept by one owner. The risk in a case like that is absolutely minimal. Of very low risk would be animals from an enthusiast who has kept a closed group for many years and who has never mixed species or allowed any form of contact with other tortoises. In the low-medium risk category would be animals from a careful genuine breeder who has very good quarantine and hygeine practices and who does not mix species or introduce new breeding stock. In the medium risk category we could place enthusiasts with larger collections and less careful breeders . Well managed rescue centres must also be considered medium risk as it is not always possible to know the history of all the animals involved. The more animals that pass though a location, the higher the risk. That would increase to very high risk if the recue centre has poor hygeine standards or mixes different species. Enthusiasts who attend meetings with tortoises or who constantly add new animals to their groups are also placing themselves in the very high risk group. It should be noted that by adopting good practices and by being very careful you not only massively reduce the danger of introducing diseases such as herpes-virus, you also massively reduce the risk of many other diseases too, such as 'Runny Nose Syndrome' and bacterial stomatitis, shell-rot, etc.

Q. What should I do if I already have, or plan on getting, tortoises from a high-risk source?

A. It would be best to establish these as a completely separate, self-contained group and to take adequate steps to prevent any cross-contamination taking place with other tortoises. Ideally, they should be in pens physically as far removed as possible from your other animals. Do not share vivariums or other accessories and do not walk between pens without changing or sterlising footwear. See the article on disease prevention for guidelines on how to reduce the risk of any disease that might be present from spreading.

Q. If I breed from a high risk tortoise or group, will the hatchlings be safe or will they also present a threat?

A. We simply do not know the answer to that at present. More research is required.

Q. Are you saying that people should not ever buy imported tortoises?

A. We are merely pointing out that they are in a very high risk group. If you do buy them, and permanently quarantine them in accordance with the advice above then you should be reasonably safe even if the worst happens as any outbreak will be restructed to that single, isolated group. If you have mixed them, or allowed cross-contamination with other tortoises in your collection, the consequences will of course be much worse.

In summary, there is no reason for panic at all. Simply take extra precautions by being ultra-careful in terms of handwashing and general hygeine, and do not introduce high risk animals into your collection. A 'closed' collection is by far the safest course of action.


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## Rramagge (Aug 14, 2013)

That's v interesting thanx


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