# What makes an ethical breeder?



## TuckerDucker (Nov 14, 2018)

I don't think I'll purchase another tortoise, at least not any time soon, but what makes an ethical, responsible tortoise breeder? I know what responsibily breeding with dogs and rabbits means, but I feel like it's probably different with exotics since there aren't as many homeless ones.


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## kazjimmy (Nov 14, 2018)

By no mean dog breeder can breed puppy within 2 years or less. But turtle and tortoise are totally different. 

In my opinion everyone breeds tortoise should be a ethical breeder. 
Tortoise are not easy to raise to adult,tortoise are not easy to lay fertilized egg,tortoise egg are not easy to hatch out. 

I recommend if you wanna buy a tortoise, find a local breeder because their tortoise adopted the local environment already. These breeder will tell you everything you need to know.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 14, 2018)

I doubt there are many unethical breeders, just uneducated ones.


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## Minority2 (Nov 14, 2018)

Yvonne G said:


> I doubt there are many unethical breeders, just uneducated ones.



Agreed. There isn't exactly a definitive answer to this question because people in general have different opinions on what ethical really means to them. One person may consider high-end quality equipment, larger than average housing, and organic quality foods a required standard while another may believe feeding one or two types of foods is good enough as long as they're being treated with the same care and respect as their other animals. People will rationalize and find ways to justify their reasons for believing in such ways. I also wouldn't necessarily call a breeder that uses outdated care to be uncaring. These practices are most likely the only thing they've been taught about tortoise care so it is completely understandable for established breeders to be suspicious and or concern of change that is not universally known. 

The more important question you should focus on is what type of care practices are used by the breeder to raise their tortoises. How are they kept? What type of foods are they fed? What methods do they use to keep their tortoises hydrated? For a new or inexperienced buyers/owners to be able to understand these concepts they must first do the proper research to be able to figure out whether if the breeder in question is selling a well started tortoise versus one that was hastily fattened up for the purpose of selling them off quickly. 

Research and ask as many questions are you need here in tortoise forum. In time you'll find that care information can and will change due to new discoveries, results taken from field experiments, and researched studies.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Nov 14, 2018)

TuckerDucker said:


> I don't think I'll purchase another tortoise, at least not any time soon, but what makes an ethical, responsible tortoise breeder? I know what responsibily breeding with dogs and rabbits means, but I feel like it's probably different with exotics since there aren't as many homeless ones.



~ I think many confuse actual breeders with retailers.......


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## ALDABRAMAN (Nov 14, 2018)

Yvonne G said:


> I doubt there are many unethical breeders, just uneducated ones.



~ I like this answer.......


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## mark1 (Nov 14, 2018)

is it ethical to produce hundreds of sulcata hatchlings and sell them in lots for $20-30 a piece ? or cheap lots of any reptile to a dealer ? it may be , but only because reptiles are not viewed the same as dogs and cats , done with dogs and cats , the breeder would be considered pretty unethical …….


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## TuckerDucker (Nov 14, 2018)

Thanks for the answers! This was purely out of curiosity


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## drew54 (Nov 16, 2018)

@Yvonne I think is right. There are ethical codes for all animals. Repile code of ethics doesn't differ much from other animal codes. You can check out this website that outlines it well. I doubt there are many people who cross any ethical boundaries as Yvonne stated.
https://herpsocsg.wordpress.com/ethics-in-herping/
I also think @Minority2 is right also. You should look at the care the breeders provide. When we look at ethical code in regards to care we still may find few who violate any codes. Responsible breeding? That would simply include basic care and needs of the specific tortoise species. Ethics are in place to protect them, but breeders don't usually violate any codes because the animals are looked at as money. So, you take care of your item until sold. Doesn't need t be elaborate care or even proper care i just needs to be basic. Food, heat, light, and enclosure. That's it. 

Now if you want to look at ethics I breeding then look at the care. Most breeders will beef there babies up fast raise them dry and soak once I a while. The tort is alive and active eating pooping so it's healthy. You buy the tort and a month later it dies. Well s*!&. My hatchling was doing great and now he is declining and not eating etc. What I find to bee unethical ate those breeders who know the statistics on how many of their hatchlings die before they are ready to be sold and knowing that most of the ones sold will die within a month. Most breeders lose up to 80% of their stock. 
Find a good breeder and follow the care sheet on the forum.


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## enchilada (Nov 18, 2018)

Well most tortoise species are endangered. In my opinion the ethical way is breed as many as you can, unless that’s an invasive species in your area.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Nov 19, 2018)

Ethics seems to address why someone does something, not what the something is. It's a measure of motivation, not action or result. Breeders are as @Yvonne G put it, under-educated more so than unethical. But these people are usually on a steep learning curve and sort it out.

Most breeders seem to have a good heart, they find a hatched egg in the incubator an affirmation of a good job with the adults.

You might be thinking of _flippers_ and _re-sellers_ regarding ethics. I flip or re-sell some tortoises with as full a disclosure on them as I can get. I won't re-sell if the source won't disclose where they got the tortoise from. To me that is ethical. My motivation is the help a breeder sell, as they don't want the 'hassle' of being a seller. OR they are just changing the numbers of animals that they keep, and I can help.

Then there are the people who just count on their internet presence as a way to reach buyers and don't breed enough or at all to meet their demand and flip animals though their system as fast as they can. To me that is unethical as then the motivation is turnover and sales.

To make some $$ doing this is great and what might, in most cases, be thought of as a laughable profit motive, can not really be isolated to one kind of seller or another.

Does the seller follow-up with care and help? Did they tell you much about the history of the animal? 

Prices are often set by what others are selling at. When I've sold leopards at a low price people have openly speculated it was because there was something wrong with them. Entirely the opposite is true. When I sell a little high, I'm called a profiteer. 

I think if you would accept the terms you are offered, you are endorsing the ethics of the seller.

As for all those sulcata out there, don't buy one if you think it is wrong.


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## wellington (Nov 19, 2018)

To me, as a former dog breeder, ethical breeder means you breed for the betterment of the breed. You care more about the animal then the money. You give them the best possible care and you only breed what you can afford too keep it they don't sell. You only sell to those you deem responsible and capable. I don't believe in culling for any reason, specially because you don't have room for the ones you brought into this world. That's how I bred dogs.
A lot of this doesn't apply to tortoises. What does and can be applied to tortoises should be.


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## Neal (Nov 19, 2018)

TuckerDucker said:


> I don't think I'll purchase another tortoise, at least not any time soon, but what makes an ethical, responsible tortoise breeder? I know what responsibily breeding with dogs and rabbits means, but I feel like it's probably different with exotics since there aren't as many homeless ones.



In my profession, ethical and responsible are two different things. Both are important to your question.

To me, an ethical breeder is one that follows commonly accepted morals. They don't lie, cheat or steal. They fairly portray their experiences and the animals they keep/sell. They are respectful of other breeders. They respect the animals the care for and produce by providing them with the good care and follow best practices. They invest the time and money necessary to keep their animals healthy and thriving.

Responsible breeders contribute more to the hobby than just the tortoises they produce. They share their knowledge and experiences, encourage others, and provide lasting support to their customers. Correcting mistakes, remedying or reconciling wrong actions or misunderstandings falls under the responsibility category. On the other hand, it is also responsible to stand up for their positions or actions in defense of the hobby and what they believe to be best practices. At the most recent TTPG conference, one of the audience members thanked a presenter for speaking about some of their failures. I think that sort of vulnerability by the presenter is an important attribute of a responsible breeder. We all make mistakes, and if we don't talk about them then others will undoubtedly make the same mistakes, or maybe, you could save the life of a tortoise.


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## Joma (Nov 19, 2018)

I agree with @wellington. Ethical practice requires both attending to the optimal care of animal while it is in your direct care as well as attending to it after it is relinquished to its long term owner. This may mean being willing and able to take it back into your care if for some reason the long-term owner cannot continue to provide care (and signing contracts that reflect such?), selling to seemingly capable owners (and having a tool to assess this) etc.

I can't think of a reason, other than making money, why someone would do otherwise. But perhaps there are reasons that I am not aware of re torts, as I am new to understanding them?


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## wellington (Nov 20, 2018)

Joma said:


> I agree with @wellington. Ethical practice requires both attending to the optimal care of animal while it is in your direct care as well as attending to it after it is relinquished to its long term owner. This may mean being willing and able to take it back into your care if for some reason the long-term owner cannot continue to provide care (and signing contracts that reflect such?), selling to seemingly capable owners (and having a tool to assess this) etc.
> 
> I can't think of a reason, other than making money, why someone would do otherwise. But perhaps there are reasons that I am not aware of re torts, as I am new to understanding them?


People always said it was easier to buy a house then one of my pups. My contract covered everything, me having first right to buy the dog back to me having the right to inquire or visit the dog until the day it died and everything in between.
Tortoise breeding is a lot different, but some of the same should apply.
I had 3 hatchlings I sold and one that was almost 3 plus 2 adults. I know they all got great homes and I keep up on them.


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## PharSytid (Nov 27, 2018)

TuckerDucker said:


> I don't think I'll purchase another tortoise, at least not any time soon, but what makes an ethical, responsible tortoise breeder? I know what responsibily breeding with dogs and rabbits means, but I feel like it's probably different with exotics since there aren't as many homeless ones.


Considering all of the countless animals/pets that do not have forever homes, is an 'ethical breeder' even possible?


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## mark1 (Nov 29, 2018)

PharSytid said:


> Considering all of the countless animals/pets that do not have forever homes, is an 'ethical breeder' even possible?


 
something I've thought about a lot in breeding dogs , I feel absolutely , yes ethical is possible . my question would be , should irresponsible folks dictate what responsible folks do , or can do ?


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## PharSytid (Nov 30, 2018)

Hi Mark1-
All due respect to your opinion.
I feel that human nature alone creates the need for decisive directives to be in place because of the actions of irresponsible folks- cause and affect type of thing. 
Pimping animals in a world that has a sky high overpopulation of homeless pets doesn't strike me as something responsible folks would do.
Again, I respect your opinion and I am not questioning your ethics. I do appreciate a good debate, my friend.


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## mark1 (Nov 30, 2018)

11,000 people were killed in wrecks involving alcohol impaired drivers last year in the U.S. , 9-10 people are killed and 1,000 injured every day by distracted drivers (texting) , is it ethical for me to drive ?


I’ve bred dogs for near 30yrs , my motivation is to have dogs that suit me , my 8th generation is 4yrs old …….. kinda doubtful I could buy dogs like I’ve bred , I know 1 guy produces dogs similar to mine ….. I’d guess every breeding I’ve done has costed me in the 3,000-5000$ range , I could and would take back every pup/dog I’ve placed , never made a breeding I didn’t intend to keep at least 2 pups , pups that didn’t cut the breeding part spent their lives with me as pets ………. I know a lot of folks breed dogs for similar reasons , protection , hunting , sport or conformation …….. the thought they are lacking in morals , their actions certainly indicate otherwise ………, the ones lacking in morals are those “pimping” animals , or abandoning them …….. i don't believe depriving folks of the opportunity they sacrifice for would in any way help the situation , as they aren't the ones causing it .......... believe me I am a substantially poorer person because of my animals …


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## PharSytid (Nov 30, 2018)

And there it is...the common ground between opposing sides! I am also less than average financial quo because of my beloved fur and nonfur kids and like myself, you wouldn't have it any other way if it meant any compromise to the unconditional loyalty and love of your pets!
You have stated some facts that I had not considered before and I thank you for that. In a perfect world, every pet would have a home; in our real world, you have made valid points.
Touché my friend.


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