# is dry hay a fire hazard?



## johnnysd (Oct 19, 2011)

i just finished my sullies winter house. i just attached the CHE about 12" above from the top shell of the sullie. my question is this, since i have dry hay and dirt inside the enclosure. i'm concerned that this will be a fire hazard. i mean its pretty warm in the enclosure right now. is there any chance of the che producing too much heat and causing the the hay to catch on fire. if anyone can help out i'd really appreciate it


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## Yvonne G (Oct 19, 2011)

Hi Johnny:

Only if it comes in contact with your heat source or light. Like if your clamp fixture fails and the light or CHE falls down on it, yes, it will ignite. But just shining down onto it should not be a problem. I don't know what temperature it takes to make it ignite, but if you have it 100 degrees directly under the light, I don't think that's hot enough for a fire.


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## dmmj (Oct 19, 2011)

hay spontaneous combustion temperature is 130 F and 65 C


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## dmarcus (Oct 19, 2011)

Just make sure your light is securely attached.. I have hay inside my big sulcata's house and the first thing I did was to make sure the lights were secured and would not fall...


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## johnnysd (Oct 19, 2011)

dalano73 said:


> Just make sure your light is securely attached.. I have hay inside my big sulcata's house and the first thing I did was to make sure the lights were secured and would not fall...



i attached the che 12" and about 1 hour later i thought i smelled something burning and i notice the sullie doesnt like to sleep in there he's always wanting to sleep outside no matter how many times i put him back inside. is this normal. and are you sure the distance is safe?
this is my first winter home so i'm very inexperienced


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## fbsmith3 (Oct 19, 2011)

I grew up on a farm; we had several "barns" where we stored hay. Every barn had several 100 watt lights sometimes inches from the top row of hay. Most of the time the lights were on for a few minutes, sometimes maybe an hour.

We only had one group of hay spontaneously combust, that hay was baled too soon, wet, and became moldy. 
I guess wet hay can become moldy and when the mold somehow ferments the moist hay and the process heats up and the outside dry hay combusts. It was quite something, totally unexpected and the insurance company did a thorough investigation. They determined it was all caused by moldy hay and actually paid us to get rid off all the other hay from that shipment.


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## johnnysd (Oct 19, 2011)

fbsmith3 said:


> I grew up on a farm; we had several "barns" where we stored hay. Every barn had several 100 watt lights sometimes inches from the top row of hay. Most of the time the lights were on for a few minutes, sometimes maybe an hour.
> 
> We only had one group of hay spontaneously combust, that hay was baled too soon, wet, and became moldy.
> I guess wet hay can become moldy and when the mold somehow ferments the moist hay and the process heats up and the outside dry hay combusts. It was quite something, totally unexpected and the insurance company did a thorough investigation. They determined it was all caused by moldy hay and actually paid us to get rid off all the other hay from that shipment.


 ok well that explains it. the "hay" i have isn't quite hay yet. it was the lawn clippings i had dried out since sunday. its not `completley dry and there is still a hint of green color. is this a problem?


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## Yvonne G (Oct 19, 2011)

If anyone ever wants to toss the catcher-full of grass clippings for their tortoise, be sure to spread it out, don't pile it up. Grass clippings get VERY HOT in the middle if left in a pile. So hot that if you open the pile, steam will come out.


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## fbsmith3 (Oct 19, 2011)

Honestly, I don't know. I do know that the guys need to know it will be dry and sunny at least four days before they cut and bale the hay. I never was part of the cutting and baling. I was only there for the loading and unloading and loading again. 

I'm glad I moved an hour away from my moms "house". That way she stopped calling me to ask me to "help load the hay". I have not owned a horse for 24 years, but I helped "take care" of her horses until I got married and moved far enough away. I think my wife picked this house, just so it was far enough away, but close enough to visit occasionally


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## johnnysd (Oct 19, 2011)

emysemys said:


> If anyone ever wants to toss the catcher-full of grass clippings for their tortoise, be sure to spread it out, don't pile it up. Grass clippings get VERY HOT in the middle if left in a pile. So hot that if you open the pile, steam will come out.



great info thank you very much


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## dmarcus (Oct 19, 2011)

When I first hooked up the CHE it hard a burning smell so I unplugged it and wasn't going to use it, but after chatting with Tom I found out that it happens with new bulbs like that and that it was burning off all the factory dust and other things that may be on it. I plugged it back in and haven't had that issue again. 

After I built the house I would put mine inside and he would come right back out then I just left him alone to see if he you do it on his own and he refused to go in there. Then we started to get some rain so since he wouldn't go in on his own I had to lock him inside his house and I didn't let him out until the next day then when it rained again I had to do that again and luckily for me he figured out that it was nice and warm in there. Then he started going in there on his own at night and if it was cold. 

You are going to have to block him in his house at night and let him out in the mornings and hopefully after doing that a couple times he will start going in there on his own.. Good luck, sulcatas are very stubborn..


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## Tom (Oct 19, 2011)

Grass clippings CAN be a problem because they can mold. Not good. I wouldn't use them for that application. It is great to feed them to your tort when they are fresh, but you should chuck any that is not eaten everyday.

You need a thermometer in there. That is the ONLY way you will know if it is too hot.

Many torts don't like their box at first. I find it easiest to move the box to wherever they WANT to be, but locking them in there every night will usually convince them that its the place to be in a few weeks.


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## boutselis (Oct 20, 2011)

hay will only spontaneously combust in bales or in large heavy piles. It is true that this happens when there is moisture in the hay. the act of the hay drying causes heat that can not escape from the center of the bail fast enough and then when it reaches a certain temp there is a chemical reaction that causes more heat that can not escape and the temp rises till it catches fire. 

The kindling temp (the temp the ignition source would need to be for hay to start burning) for dry hay is in the hundreds of degrees. The spontaneous combustion happens from a chemical reaction that will not take place in a small pile and would also have to have moisture to take place. 



This is where it may get confusing to some people. green hay has a higher kindling temp than dry hay. thats why if you put a match to green hay it won't catch fire. As long as the pile is small and the heat from the drying and breakdown can escape then the green hay is safe. But then there is the mold problem (which some one mentioned before). And if you have a heavy tort compressing the green hay then it changes the whole picture but the heat from the hay would probably make him move and end the cycle.

Green grass creates heat in much smaller piles than hay does because it is so much more compact. Unless pressed, hay will fluff up and a small pile will remain cool but grass is self compacting and will not let gasses and heat out. Thats why green grass works so well in a compost piles. 

so to make a to long reply end
even if the lamp touched the hay directly it probably won't catch the hay on fire so its pretty safe.

I almost forgot. A few people mentioned locking the torts in at night. Make sure they are not coming out because its to hot. Olivia had a problem with her house when the heat lamp was on. It turned out it was way to hot for her. Locking the torts in a situation where their body temp gets to high is just as dangerous as being to cold so check those temps please before you lock them up


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## yagyujubei (Oct 20, 2011)

Every spring there are barn fires in this area caused by heat lamps coming into contact with hay or straw, usually caused by a calf or lamb. Dry hay or straw is EXTREMELY flamable (inflamable) I personally would clear an area directly under the heat source. If your tortoise should decide to bury itself under the hay, under the light, it could possibly raise the material into the light. Shards of a hot broken bulb could be a problem also, so be careful spraying water around a hot bulb.


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## Grigor.Love. (Oct 20, 2011)

Could I just put barn hay in my tortoise's enclosure?


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## boutselis (Oct 20, 2011)

yagyujubei said:


> Every spring there are barn fires in this area caused by heat lamps coming into contact with hay or straw, usually caused by a calf or lamb. Dry hay or straw is EXTREMELY flamable (inflamable) I personally would clear an area directly under the heat source. If your tortoise should decide to bury itself under the hay, under the light, it could possibly raise the material into the light. Shards of a hot broken bulb could be a problem also, so be careful spraying water around a hot bulb.



I guess it does matter what type of bulb we are talking about. I was only thinking of the typical 150 watt ceramic bulb you would use for a tortoise. A barn may be using like a 500watt heat lamp or something much hotter. 

Here is a picture of some very very old and dry hay on a 150 watt ceramic bulb at full temp. I even blew on it to try and get it to ignite

. No fire. It did smolder for a short time but then stopped. I think dust on the hay was doing the smoldering and not the hay. 

Maybe if a 150 watt in a dome fell so the dome contained the heat it may build up enough to get it to burn but it just laying on the bulb did not start a fire.


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## Grigor.Love. (Oct 20, 2011)

boutselis said:


> yagyujubei said:
> 
> 
> > Every spring there are barn fires in this area caused by heat lamps coming into contact with hay or straw, usually caused by a calf or lamb. Dry hay or straw is EXTREMELY flamable (inflamable) I personally would clear an area directly under the heat source. If your tortoise should decide to bury itself under the hay, under the light, it could possibly raise the material into the light. Shards of a hot broken bulb could be a problem also, so be careful spraying water around a hot bulb.
> ...




Kudos on the experimentation.


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## yagyujubei (Oct 20, 2011)

Well don't I feel stupid! I guess it's myth busted. Your experiment definately proves that nothing can go wrong. Please continue to reassure people to the "proven" safety of that combination.


boutselis said:


> yagyujubei said:
> 
> 
> > Every spring there are barn fires in this area caused by heat lamps coming into contact with hay or straw, usually caused by a calf or lamb. Dry hay or straw is EXTREMELY flamable (inflamable) I personally would clear an area directly under the heat source. If your tortoise should decide to bury itself under the hay, under the light, it could possibly raise the material into the light. Shards of a hot broken bulb could be a problem also, so be careful spraying water around a hot bulb.
> ...


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## boutselis (Oct 20, 2011)

I thought it was important. Although I would say it is better to be safe than sorry and you should try to avoid having anything touch the lamp I didn't want people to be needlessly scared of hay under heat lamps



yagyujubei said:


> Well don't I feel stupid! I guess it's myth busted. Your experiment definately proves that nothing can go wrong. Please continue to reassure people to the "proven" safety of that combination.



I never said anything is
Proven. I just didn't want people to be so scared that they didn't use their hay. 

And everyone should remember this was a 150 watt ceramic bulb. Our lamp will take up to 250 which I am sure would be much hotter.


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## yagyujubei (Oct 20, 2011)

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## boutselis (Oct 20, 2011)

Here is something I just thought of.

Not only would the size of the lamp matter but I just remembered that the air temp matters also. Believe it or not, the chance of fire is actually higher in colder temp because of the air density. I am not sure how much it changes the kindling temps of various things but it does make it easier to ignite kindlings like hay or small sticks. 

there is also the chance of electrical fire which is much different than something catching on fire from the heat produced by a lamp. sparks from a worn or malfunctioning electrical item can produce temps over 500 degrees and that will ignite many things in an instant and would definitely ignite dry hay or paper.

so thats something to think about also. There are a lot of different variables to consider.


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## Maggie Cummings (Oct 20, 2011)

Huh! Notice how all those fires or most of them happened in Oregon? Guess we're not too smart here...but Bob has a bare floor and his hay is clear on the other side of the room.


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## Tony the tank (Oct 20, 2011)

I have used hay for a while as a substrate.. Even under my basking light were the temp usually hit 130+ on the substrate....I had no issues..

I have read that when moist hay is bailed tightly..The heat generated from the fermenting hay would cause the hay to combust...

I tried my own test..(i had nothing better to do) I moistened a bundle of hay and tied it tight..and threw it in the sun for a few days with a meat thermometer in the middle( oh yes my wife's favorite meat thermometer)..checked it a few times temp never got higher than about 5-6 degrees over ambient..So I would venture to say it would have to be a very big tight bail for the air not to circulate in deep..and cool the heat caused by the fermentation..


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