# Clutch of 9.



## Anyfoot (May 8, 2018)

This is a clutch of 9 from last August, So nearly 10 months old and weigh around 130g. 
Again, some are smooth and some have minor pyramiding going on. 
I wanted to slow growth down a bit so I changed the diet. These have been fed predominantly greens/weeds. Protein once a month in the form of catfood. No mushrooms and occasionally some fruit(like 2 or 3 times per month at the most). For the last 5 months I’ve sprinkled a small amount of nutrobal on their food daily to make sure they got enough vitamins and calcium because of the lack of fruit intake. 
I soaked them daily for first 3 months then backed off sharply to 2 or 3 times a wk. 
Humidity is at 80/85%. I have no heat source anywhere near these guys so no artificial drying out of the carapace was possible at any time(3 days ago was the first time I’ve had them outside in the sun). 

Even at 80/85% humidity the carapace still dries out within the hour. 

There’s still got to be a variable to get different levels of smoothness. 

I can only think of micro climates within my enclosure, maybe some are drying out in the open 80/85% humid air and others dig in. 

No matter what I feed or the speed that any of my torts grow at, I get differences in smoothness. 

The plot thickens.


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## daniellenc (May 8, 2018)




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## daniellenc (May 8, 2018)

@Anyfoot hrre is my just now 1 year old excuse the poo. Soaked daily, humidity in closed chamber always high, but wasn’t fed to grow slow. However lately he’s looking quite pyramided and I keep wondering what I’ve done wrong.


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## Anyfoot (May 8, 2018)

daniellenc said:


> @Anyfoot hrre is my just now 1 year old excuse the poo. Soaked daily, humidity in closed chamber always high, but wasn’t fed to grow slow. However lately he’s looking quite pyramided and I keep wondering what I’ve done wrong.


Do you use any supplements?


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## Anyfoot (May 8, 2018)

And what are you using for a heat source?


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## daniellenc (May 8, 2018)

I use calcium powder once a week, a CHE set to 88 which keeps the whole tank except under the CHE in the 80’s, and a fluorescent UVB light.


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## daniellenc (May 8, 2018)

He gets a large variety of goodies for food and Mazuri 2-3x per week plus protein once a week usually mushroom, chicken, or shrimp. He’s not into cat food at all


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## Anyfoot (May 8, 2018)

daniellenc said:


> I use calcium powder once a week, a CHE set to 88 which keeps the whole tank except under the CHE in the 80’s, and a fluorescent UVB light.


 What is the UVB(5.0 or 10.0 & T5 or T8). How high is it from the substrate?


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## daniellenc (May 8, 2018)

I thought it was a 10.0 but it’s a 5.0 about 12 inches above his carapace. Now T5 or 8 I’ll have to look again I honestly don’t remember


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## Kapidolo Farms (May 8, 2018)

Watching with interest. Thick plots usually need to be watered down. LOL sorta punny.


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## Kapidolo Farms (May 8, 2018)

daniellenc said:


> View attachment 238029


All those mini growth ridges/rings indicate many start and stops to growth. More calcium, at least that's what I'm seeing with leo's.


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## Kapidolo Farms (May 8, 2018)

Anyfoot said:


> What is the UVB(5.0 or 10.0 & T5 or T8). How high is it from the substrate?


T5 and T8 are 5/8ths and 8/8ths of an inch in diameter. T5 can be T5, T5 HO, or T5 VHO, most UV tubes are T5 HO (High Output).


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## daniellenc (May 8, 2018)

Thank you @Will maybe calcium twice a week? I legit take a fingernail full once a week and mix it with everything but he normally isn’t clearing his whole pile. I am ignorant to growth rings but I’m seeing pyramiding is there a thread that explains growth rings and carapace structure?


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## Kapidolo Farms (May 8, 2018)

daniellenc said:


> Thank you @Will maybe calcium twice a week? I legit take a fingernail full once a week and mix it with everything but he normally isn’t clearing his whole pile. I am ignorant to growth rings but I’m seeing pyramiding is there a thread that explains growth rings and carapace structure?


The reason there is a ring is because growth stops. Then it starts again. In Anyfoots second image (first post) you can see the one in the center has very few rings, but they are wide. That is continuous growth over time, un-interrupted. It is also smooth. I think that means the protein based growth of the keratin (scute material) is perfectly matched to new bone being laid down under the scute. Babies need protein, and so I think the solution (aside from keeping the keratin soft and flexible with humidity) is to provide enough calcium for the underlying bone to keep in pace with the keratin. Then growth without a conspicuous ridge can occur. Like when you see those Radiated raised in Asia, perfect match between calcium and protein in high humidity at temps that support many hours of active growth a day, not stop/start daily or every few days, non-stop. I don't think most tortoises bask as it were. They may use direct sun exposure to lengthen the window of activity on any given day, but if ambient temps are good with out sun exposure it seems like all that 'sun' time is incidental. Ambient temps and high humidity with well balanced food. The thick plot would seem to be individual preference of the tortoises in the enclosure.


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## Anyfoot (May 8, 2018)

Will said:


> The reason there is a ring is because growth stops. Then it starts again. In Anyfoots second image (first post) you can see the one in the center has very few rings, but they are wide. That is continuous growth over time, un-interrupted. It is also smooth. I think that means the protein based growth of the keratin (scute material) is perfectly matched to new bone being laid down under the scute. Babies need protein, and so I think the solution (aside from keeping the keratin soft and flexible with humidity) is to provide enough calcium for the underlying bone to keep in pace with the keratin. Then growth without a conspicuous ridge can occur. Like when you see those Radiated raised in Asia, perfect match between calcium and protein in high humidity at temps that support many hours of active growth a day, not stop/start daily or every few days, non-stop. I don't think most tortoises bask as it were. They may use direct sun exposure to lengthen the window of activity on any given day, but if ambient temps are good with out sun exposure it seems like all that 'sun' time is incidental. Ambient temps and high humidity with well balanced food. The thick plot would seem to be individual preference of the tortoises in the enclosure.


 Well explained Will. During the winter months my temps witchin the tort house dropped. I don’t have enough heat in there to maintain 27c when it’s -10c outside for prolonged periods. 
Could this be the factor that kickstarted stacking on some torts, but why only on some torts? 

I’ve often wondered if we should be raising them at slightly lower temp than we do. Anything below 23.5c and my redfoots stop feeding and become dormant. 
Would lower temps make growth more even?


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## Anyfoot (May 9, 2018)

@Will 

Do you think there is a possibility my problem of inconsistency in growth amongst a group may be because my temperature fluctuates too much over the winter months, depending on what stage of growth they are at when temps start to fluctuate is showing different degrees of stacking within my group. 

Even if I feed a perfect diet and have perfect humidity/hydration and with no concentrated heat, Would I still get irregular growth if my temps are up and down because of the stop start in growth that is relative to temperatures? 

This would also answer why my torts are always smooth when grown in a small vivarium type enclosure where the temps are extremely stable. 

Your thoughts please.


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## Kapidolo Farms (May 9, 2018)

Anyfoot said:


> @Will
> 
> Do you think there is a possibility my problem of inconsistency in growth amongst a group may be because my temperature fluctuates too much over the winter months, depending on what stage of growth they are at when temps start to fluctuate is showing different degrees of stacking within my group.
> 
> ...



I would tend to agree with this summation. I don't have things dialed in enough to actually do this where all the enclosures are, keep super stable enclosure climate.


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## Kapidolo Farms (May 9, 2018)

daniellenc said:


> Thank you @Will maybe calcium twice a week? I legit take a fingernail full once a week and mix it with everything but he normally isn’t clearing his whole pile. I am ignorant to growth rings but I’m seeing pyramiding is there a thread that explains growth rings and carapace structure?



I have added calcium to the diet daily in a number of ways. One meal a week is only supplemented with calcium carbonate, another five days a week supplemented with Vionate or crumbles (a tortoise food I am working up) and one day no supplement, but that the day that opuntia is in the diet for sure.


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## Markw84 (May 9, 2018)

For what it's worth...

There are many things that can cause a slowdown in growth. Not just temperature variations. Parasite loads, photoperiod, diet, hormonal levels, stress - all come into play.

I agree that it is the stopping of growth that causes rings to form. However, it would be the bone growth that is the controlling factor. Keratin growth responds to bone growth. When the bone grows it spreads the seams of the scutes (keratin) apart, and the keratin growth is stimulated to fill in the gap. When growth stops, it seems the keratin production at the seams continues as the keratin develops its thickness. With no/ very slow growth, this continues long enough to build a ridge. It is certainly very possible that the same effect of putting pressure on the epithelial layer and stimulating osteoclast genesis, is in effect here - as we have noted in the past that growth rings also put corresponding grooves in the bone beneath. If this were to continue over a period, that groove could, possibly become a slight valley forming. So an imbalance in bone materials in the diet (D3, calcium, phosphorus, or magnesium) could be creating a prolonged phase of less bone growth while keratin is still actively expanding. Protein in the diet would have to be at near fatally low levels to effect keratin growth. Excess protein could not produce excess keratin, just as excess calcium will not produce excess bone. So it would be the lack of bone materials, or conditions to limit bone growth that would be the issue I would see as the probable cause. But... Stress, horomones, parasite loads can also create a stop/slow in bone growth and that could also come into play.


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## Anyfoot (May 9, 2018)

Markw84 said:


> For what it's worth...
> 
> There are many things that can cause a slowdown in growth. Not just temperature variations. Parasite loads, photoperiod, diet, hormonal levels, stress - all come into play.
> 
> I agree that it is the stopping of growth that causes rings to form. However, it would be the bone growth that is the controlling factor. Keratin growth responds to bone growth. When the bone grows it spreads the seams of the scutes (keratin) apart, and the keratin growth is stimulated to fill in the gap. When growth stops, it seems the keratin production at the seams continues as the keratin develops its thickness. With no/ very slow growth, this continues long enough to build a ridge. It is certainly very possible that the same effect of putting pressure on the epithelial layer and stimulating osteoclast genesis, is in effect here - as we have noted in the past that growth rings also put corresponding grooves in the bone beneath. If this were to continue over a period, that groove could, possibly become a slight valley forming. So an imbalance in bone materials in the diet (D3, calcium, phosphorus, or magnesium) could be creating a prolonged phase of less bone growth while keratin is still actively expanding. Protein in the diet would have to be at near fatally low levels to effect keratin growth. Excess protein could not produce excess keratin, just as excess calcium will not produce excess bone. So it would be the lack of bone materials, or conditions to limit bone growth that would be the issue I would see as the probable cause. But... Stress, horomones, parasite loads can also create a stop/slow in bone growth and that could also come into play.


 A stable temperature falls in with the micro climates though doesn’t it Mark?


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## Markw84 (May 9, 2018)

Anyfoot said:


> A stable temperature falls in with the micro climates though doesn’t it Mark?


Yes. The more you use the earth as a heat sink, the more stable the temperature. Where most tortoises come from - in the tropical regions, the temperatures day to night are far more stable as well. Those that come from more of the fringes of the tropics or where temps vary more, tend to be the tortoises that use burrows more. So under a rock shelf, under leaf litter, dug in a pallet under a bush, and certainly in a burrow, the temperatures are amazingly stable.


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