# Sulcata Vs Leopard Tortoise



## Ryansiegelreptiles (Jul 29, 2016)

Hello everyone, I have done lots of research and I am narrowing my options down to either a Sulcata or Leopard Tortoise. I live up North, so a Sulcata outside might be hard but I could always buy or build a shed for the winter but that might get a little pricey. I have room for a Leopard Tortoise. But I hear they aren't as personable as Sulcatas. And what is a good temperature to let a Sulcata out again after the winter. Thank You


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## Big Charlie (Jul 29, 2016)

They can go out when it is in the 60s but they can't digest their food in that temperature. If you have a heated box or shed, they can go in and out as needed. There are several sulcata owners who have their sulcatas outside year round with a heated shed. Some of these sulcatas even come out in the snow for short periods.


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## Ryansiegelreptiles (Jul 29, 2016)

Big Charlie said:


> They can go out when it is in the 60s but they can't digest their food in that temperature. If you have a heated box or shed, they can go in and out as needed. There are several sulcata owners who have their sulcatas outside year round with a heated shed. Some of these sulcatas even come out in the snow for short periods.


Thank you! And size wise would a 16 feet deep by 10 feet across pen work for outside and an indoor shed of 5 feet deep feet by 10 feet across?


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## KaitlinKeefe_ (Jul 29, 2016)

Hey!

i would look into the care sheets on both and see what is most reasonable for your climate. sulcatas get very large so make sure you have adequate space indoors and out if the temps get in the negatives like they do here in Vermont


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## Ryansiegelreptiles (Jul 29, 2016)

KaitlinKeefe_ said:


> Hey!
> 
> i would look into the care sheets on both and see what is most reasonable for your climate. sulcatas get very large so make sure you have adequate space indoors and out if the temps get in the negatives like they do here in Vermont


Alright Thank you. I have looked at many care sheets on both and I have the room for both


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## KaitlinKeefe_ (Jul 29, 2016)

I think youll find members that will tell you they love both so its really up to you if you want a larger tortoise or a smaller one. ive heard both have great personalities (but then again ive never met a tortoise i didnt like ) 

are you planning on getting a hatchling?


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## Ryansiegelreptiles (Jul 29, 2016)

KaitlinKeefe_ said:


> I think youll find members that will tell you they love both so its really up to you if you want a larger tortoise or a smaller one. ive heard both have great personalities (but then again ive never met a tortoise i didnt like )
> 
> are you planning on getting a hatchling?


Yes, If I get a hatching that would give me at least 4 year to figure out the cage design and start building an outdoor cage, also hatchlings are very cute


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## Jodie (Jul 29, 2016)

Hello. I keep a Sulcata and breeding groups of leopards. 
My Sulcata is 50 pounds, and lives outside year round. His enclosure is about 700 square feet. He uses every inch. He has a 8 foot by 15 foot greenhouse with an 8 foot by 4foot insulated box in it. They have to be able to go somewhere that is warm enough for them to raise their body temp over 85F to digest food. Every day. In winter his box is kept over 80F even at night. He goes out even in snow to walk around and pout because there is no grass.
The Leopards now have 2 bedrooms in my house for winter, and about 800 square foot enclosure outside. They have a heated box that is also kept 80F or warmer.
The Sulcata is definitely more active and outgoing. My adult leopards are very friendly as well though.


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## Tom (Jul 29, 2016)

Ryansiegelreptiles said:


> Yes, If I get a hatching that would give me at least 4 year to figure out the cage design and start building an outdoor cage, also hatchlings are very cute



Sulcatas are much more personable generally speaking, but they grow so large and destructive that they are very challenging to house well in winter in the frozen North. 16x10' would be fine for a yearling, but much too small for anything much larger than that. They can hit 10" and 1000 grams in a year if they are raised in the right conditions. They can hit 50 pounds and 22" in five years, even when they are grown slowly on a natural diet.


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## Ryansiegelreptiles (Jul 30, 2016)

Tom said:


> Sulcatas are much more personable generally speaking, but they grow so large and destructive that they are very challenging to house well in winter in the frozen North. 16x10' would be fine for a yearling, but much too small for anything much larger than that. They can hit 10" and 1000 grams in a year if they are raised in the right conditions. They can hit 50 pounds and 22" in five years, even when they are grown slowly on a natural diet.


Ah, thank you. What dimensions would work for an adult. Most people said that their tortoise cage was half the size of their yard, but obviously everyones yard is different sizes so i don't know what to do


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## Tom (Jul 30, 2016)

Ryansiegelreptiles said:


> Ah, thank you. What dimensions would work for an adult. Most people said that their tortoise cage was half the size of their yard, but obviously everyones yard is different sizes so i don't know what to do



This question is controversial and debatable. There is no right or wrong answer, its just people's opinions and comfort levels. You could keep a 150 pound sulcata in a 4x4' crate of some sort. The animal would be able to survive if you gave it food, water and kept it clean. But is that okay with anybody? They need room to roam. Locomotion actually helps with digestion. Its easy for me to say they need great big outdoor enclosures. I live in a climate that is warm year round and I have many acres upon which to build tortoise pens. So what does a person who lives in the frozen North need to do? I don't know. My adult sulcata enclosure is about 7000 sq. feet and that seems like its adequate, but I'd still like to go bigger. If someone in DesMoines Iowa wants to build a giant indoor 7000 sq. ft. warehouse, keep it around 80 degrees, invest in giant heating and lighting bulbs to simulate a large sunny spot with good UV, and grow all sorts of good tortoise food, man I'd sell them as many babies as they wanted. But who does that? I've never heard of one person doing it that way in a cold winter climate. I've only heard about basements, or rooms in the house. Or outdoor sheds, or outdoor heated tortoise houses and people allowing these tortoises from tropical Africa to walk outside in the snow. None of those things are within my comfort level.

The point is that you can stuff them into a small indoor basement enclosure for months at a time, and do your best to keep them warm while hoping and praying there isn't a power outage with every winter storm, but is that okay with you? Are you comfortable with that? Some people are. Some people expend a lot of time, effort and money to try to do it right in that sort of climate with that sort of space restrictions. Me, personally? I would't be comfortable with that. If I lived somewhere with frozen winters, I simply wouldn't keep giant species that need warm tropical temps year round. I wouldn't want to fight the cold and I wound't want them crammed indoors in small spaces for months at a time. I would choose other species that stay smaller and hibernate in winter. This doesn't make it "wrong" for others who choose differently, its just not what I would choose.

You will have to do some soul searching and decide where your comfort level is. Have you spent much time with large sulcatas and seen them roaming around? That might help with your decision. Here is my adult enclosure for reference: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/enclosure-expansion.38788/

This is my juvenile enclosure for them when they are 8-15". Its been expanded twice since this thread. Its now about 55x30':
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/daisys-new-enclosure.28662/

I'm not saying it must be done how I've done it. I'm just showing an example of how I do it right now.


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## Ryansiegelreptiles (Jul 30, 2016)

Tom said:


> This question is controversial and debatable. There is no right or wrong answer, its just people's opinions and comfort levels. You could keep a 150 pound sulcata in a 4x4' crate of some sort. The animal would be able to survive if you gave it food, water and kept it clean. But is that okay with anybody? They need room to roam. Locomotion actually helps with digestion. Its easy for me to say they need great big outdoor enclosures. I live in a climate that is warm year round and I have many acres upon which to build tortoise pens. So what does a person who lives in the frozen North need to do? I don't know. My adult sulcata enclosure is about 7000 sq. feet and that seems like its adequate, but I'd still like to go bigger. If someone in DesMoines Iowa wants to build a giant indoor 7000 sq. ft. warehouse, keep it around 80 degrees, invest in giant heating and lighting bulbs to simulate a large sunny spot with good UV, and grow all sorts of good tortoise food, man I'd sell them as many babies as they wanted. But who does that? I've never heard of one person doing it that way in a cold winter climate. I've only heard about basements, or rooms in the house. Or outdoor sheds, or outdoor heated tortoise houses and people allowing these tortoises from tropical Africa to walk outside in the snow. None of those things are within my comfort level.
> 
> The point is that you can stuff them into a small indoor basement enclosure for months at a time, and do your best to keep them warm while hoping and praying there isn't a power outage with every winter storm, but is that okay with you? Are you comfortable with that? Some people are. Some people expend a lot of time, effort and money to try to do it right in that sort of climate with that sort of space restrictions. Me, personally? I would't be comfortable with that. If I lived somewhere with frozen winters, I simply wouldn't keep giant species that need warm tropical temps year round. I wouldn't want to fight the cold and I wound't want them crammed indoors in small spaces for months at a time. I would choose other species that stay smaller and hibernate in winter. This doesn't make it "wrong" for others who choose differently, its just not what I would choose.
> 
> ...


Thank You! Are Cinder Blocks or wood cheaper to use?


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## Tom (Jul 31, 2016)

Ryansiegelreptiles said:


> Thank You! Are Cinder Blocks or wood cheaper to use?



For a young sulcata I'd go 16" high with plywood. That would give me 24 feet of enclosure wall per $20 plywood sheet. Then you'd need pressure treated 2x4s for upright posts. If you did 32" (16 inches above and 16 inches below ground) you could get 3 posts per 8' 2x4. This would total about $24 for 24' or $1 a foot.

16" cinder blocks at Home Depot run about .94 cents each. You'd need to go three high. So you need 18 blocks to go 24', but you've got to go three high, so 54 blocks. 54 blocks x .94 cents = $50.76 = $2.12 per foot.

Wood is less than half the price of block. BUT… Wood will rot. Wood must be painted and paint and primer are quite expensive, not to mention all the time you'll have to put in. Then you need screws, a screw gun, and a post hole digger. How hard and rocky is your dirt? Digging post holes is no fun at all. Believe me, I've done it hundreds of times. Block lasts forever because its impervious to the elements, is easy to move or reconfigure, and requires little or no "prep". Just drop it in place and be done.

So when you figure in paint and primer at around $30 and $20 per gallon respectively, deck screws, labor and tools, plus the fact that you'll have to re-do the wood every few years, block might be cheaper in the long run, and its certainly easier in the short term.

What do you think? Which way seems best for you?


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## Ryansiegelreptiles (Jul 31, 2016)

Thank you everyone (Tom in Particular) I think I am going to get a leopard tortoise and then get Sulcata Tortoise in the future.


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## Tom (Jul 31, 2016)

Ryansiegelreptiles said:


> Thank you everyone (Tom in Particular) I think I am going to get a leopard tortoise and then get Sulcata Tortoise in the future.



Here is a potential solution to your conundrum: South African Leopard. They get a little bigger than the "regular" leopards, but still much smaller than a sulcata. They tend to have bold, outgoing personalities too. One last thing is that they are big time grass eaters, like a sulcata, and you can feed them grass hay for bulk when they get older.

Just be sure to get a true South African. Ask for "Limburg" line animals, and don't be swayed by claims that other types are "South African". There are lots and lots of people out there selling mixes that cannot be verified. Also make sure to get one that has not had a dry start. These two things are a tall order when combined. I should have babies in about a month if you don't mind waiting.


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## Ryansiegelreptiles (Jul 31, 2016)

Tom said:


> Here is a potential solution to your conundrum: South African Leopard. They get a little bigger than the "regular" leopards, but still much smaller than a sulcata. They tend to have bold, outgoing personalities too. One last thing is that they are big time grass eaters, like a sulcata, and you can feed them grass hay for bulk when they get older.
> 
> Just be sure to get a true South African. Ask for "Limburg" line animals, and don't be swayed by claims that other types are "South African". There are lots and lots of people out there selling mixes that cannot be verified. Also make sure to get one that has not had a dry start. These two things are a tall order when combined. I should have babies in about a month if you don't mind waiting.


How big do the South Africans get?


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jul 31, 2016)

I have to admit I get confused when someone says they have done research and then ask basic questions. I guess I have my own research to do 

Sulcatas have the personality of of an autonomous tractor that sooner or latter sorts out that you are likely to represent food. They will walk over to you, ram you, and look at you with contemplation/suspicion. They can also know you are there and completely ignore you.

Leopards are perpetually shy, don't mind if you are several feet away, and look at you with a blind stare. They are more like cars in the street that are always parked in a different place, yet you never see the driver. Leopards may eventually think of you as food source, in the same way cattle egrets know tractors make food appear.

These are gross generalities, each tortoise will fall into it's own pattern.

Sulcatas are better at being thermo regulatory aware, leopards are not good at this. That is - a sulcata is much more likely to put itself into its nighthouse than a leopard. An ugly leopard is more attractive than a beautiful sulcata IMO. Sulcatas are burrowers, leopards will use a burrow, but don't seem to build their own. 

They both have the potential to be legacy pets, your grandchildren may end up with them.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/leopard-tortoises.144243/


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## Tom (Jul 31, 2016)

Ryansiegelreptiles said:


> How big do the South Africans get?


30-40 pounds is pretty normal after enough years. 50-60 pounds is possible in some cases.


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## Ryansiegelreptiles (Jul 31, 2016)

Tom said:


> 30-40 pounds is pretty normal after enough years. 50-60 pounds is possible in some cases.


Okay! Im going to stop bothering you and look into these guys a little bit more and decide between a South African and just a Regular one


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## Gillian M (Jul 31, 2016)

Whatever species you decide to get, good luck!


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## Jodie (Jul 31, 2016)

FYI, I have regular leopards ready to go.


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## Tom (Jul 31, 2016)

Ryansiegelreptiles said:


> Okay! Im going to stop bothering you and look into these guys a little bit more and decide between a South African and just a Regular one



I'll help:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/2010-south-african-leopard-thread.20528/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/wanna-see-an-egg-get-laid-or-two.143651/


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 1, 2016)

Some of the deeper POV of the geographic variants of leopard tortoises.

Those from the the area of Cape Town are considered an introduced population. There are no skeletal remains in cave trash piles pre-European colonization. They were initially selected and brought there by farmers who liked them around and because they taste good. Some of those selection pressures continue there and in captivity here. Some people breed true for the characteristics that make them what they are, some mix them back into less well defined groups.

There are several distinct population types, most of which are not know to be specifically available as that type. Many folks sell lines as dwarf, blond, etc and maybe they have selected for those characteristics maybe they just happen to have some that often turn out that way.

The United States has been short changed on this species as they were deemed to be a source (vector) for ticks that carry a disease potentially dangerous to cattle and other livestock. There are a few folks out there that have groups from potentially know places from before this happened (2001). But even if they imported the tortoises themselves they only have the word of the seller/shipper as to the validity of the source.

The whole point is to not get too caught up in the folklore of the tortoises. Find ones you like for what you see, not so much the story behind them.

I see many people sell leopards that are really good looking and started out with optimal conditions. They may or may not be 'south Africa', but they are great tortoises none-the-less.

In Europe and and many parts of Asia, there are many people who do breed specific geographic variants, and they field collected the adults.


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