# Signs of Pyramiding?



## MzNENA (Dec 26, 2013)

With all recent threads I've come across since joining the tortoise forums & seeing as my tortoise research prior to purchasing mine, was mostly for the care of adults, I can say I've grown a bit concerned.

Reading now that hatchlings & baby tortoises need & are suggested to live under certain conditions with the right humidity & correct temperatures to promote healthy & smooth shell growth as well as having a more of a closed enclosure to ensure these better conditions, I've come to realize the set up I had was well kind of wrong lol

So at this time I'm not sure if it's just my anxiety and paranoia acting up after reading through many threads.

I've had our Ibera Greek for just about a week now. Purchased online from Tortoise Supply. He's about 3 months old.
Lives in a 30"x20" plastic storage tub.
Has a 50W basking light & coil UVB (which I've stopped using immediately as I wait for my MVB bulb in the mail)
Soak his substrate twice a day with a spray bottle.
His substrate consists of 50/50 Coconut Coir & top soil.
I also give him 2 daily soaks with warm water for 20min.

Noticed 3 bumps on his shell already. Looking at previous photos from a week ago he already had them, but they seem to be sticking out a bit more, now.
Are these signs of pyramiding at all??
If so, what can I do to prevent it from progressing?

If not, what are the first initial signs that I should start to look out for as my tort grows?
Thanks ahead of time to all of the kind & experienced tortoise owners of this forum for the help


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## Yvonne G (Dec 26, 2013)

Your baby hasn't grown enough to see pyramiding. When (if) it happens it will be at the growth seam. The scute will look higher than the new growth at the seam.


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## MzNENA (Dec 26, 2013)

Yvonne G said:


> Your baby hasn't grown enough to see pyramiding. When (if) it happens it will be at the growth seam. The scute will look higher than the new growth at the seam.



Thank you very much for clarifying that for me Yvonne 
There is still hope & there is still time lol


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## Yvonne G (Dec 26, 2013)

Everyone needs to realize that most of the pyramiding we've been talking about here on the Forum was related to sulcatas and leopards. The Hermann's and Greeks and Russians are fairly easy to grow smooth. You can raise a Hermann's right next to a sulcata in the same circumstances and the Hermann's will grow smoothly but the sulcata will pyramid.

Everyone - please don't worry so much about pyramiding. All of you here on the Forum are getting good info about diet, habitat, lighting, etc, and if you see a bit of pyramiding, its not the end of the world. It is purely cosmetic and your tortoise is not going to be less healthy because of it. 

Just do your best and enjoy your tortoise. And whenever possible, get him outside in the real sunshine.


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## reatrocity (Dec 26, 2013)

Thanks Yvonne for those words. For us new tort owners it really helps put our minds at ease. I think for me personally, I just wanted to make sure if my tortoise was pyramiding, I would just want to catch it as quickly as possible and fix whatever problems I may have. I probably worry too much, but I rather worry too much than not enough. All of you have been a tremendous help.


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## MzNENA (Dec 26, 2013)

That last post took the words right out of my mouth. Very well said exactly the same way I'm feeling. 

As the new owner of my very first tortoise & seeing the almost completely different information I saw on youtube and other websites prior to purchase, compared to the tortoise forums, it makes this a whole new learning experience.

But with the experienced experts on this forum my troubles & worries can be put at ease or responded to with the needed solutions & I love that about this community.

Although I feel my questions may be dumb at times, hey we all start somewhere & it's better to get those questions answered then to avoid the possible solution or explanation to a subject that's remained on your mind


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## Testudoresearch (Dec 26, 2013)

Yvonne G said:


> The Hermann's and Greeks and Russians are fairly easy to grow smooth.



Unfortunately, someone forgot to inform them of this...



































Spot the captive-raised..






(recent batch of seized tortoises received at rescue center)



Yvonne G said:


> Everyone - please don't worry so much about pyramiding. All of you here on the Forum are getting good info about diet, habitat, lighting, etc, and if you see a bit of pyramiding, its not the end of the world. It is purely cosmetic and your tortoise is not going to be less healthy because of it.



Have to say that while there is some evidence that you can find _wild-raised tortoises _with some slight degree of so-called 'pyramiding' and apparently healthy bone development, I have yet to find a captive bred/raised example that does. *100% of the tortoises (several hundred) with evident 'pyramiding' I have personally autopsied over the past 30 years have MBD to varying degrees. * I have yet to find one that does not.

Example: Testudo hermanni






Internal, demonstrating advanced lesions and fibrous tissue









Yvonne G said:


> And whenever possible, get him outside in the real sunshine.



+1 on that point.


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## Team Gomberg (Dec 26, 2013)

> If so, what can I do to prevent it from progressing?



Testudoresearch, why don't you help out this new member and offer her some answers to her question?
Your pictures showed her how bad it can get, so advise her on how to prevent it. Both her and her tort would thank you for it.


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## Testudoresearch (Dec 27, 2013)

Team Gomberg said:


> > If so, what can I do to prevent it from progressing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. Avoid any diet (or feeding quantity) that results in highly accelerated rates of growth. High growth rates are typically associated with greatly increased incidence of MBD (metabolic bone disease)

2. In practice, these means avoiding too much reliance on foods that are excessively high in protein content (which I would define as much above 10% on a dry matter basis), and any foods which are high in starch and carbohydrates, or in naturally occurring sugars (fruits, for example). Such foods also are typically very high in phosphorus, and low in calcium. Low fiber foods should also be generally avoided. Many commercially sold "complete" diets are not suitable. Avoid any with brans, grain-derivates and similar additives. 

3. 99.9% of the natural diet of Mediterranean tortoises is comprised of very high fiber, varied wild flowers and "weeds". The fiber content is typically in the 30-40% range.

4. These tortoises are typically found in areas with calcium-rich soils. Their calcium intake is very high. Their phosphorus intake is quite low. Laboratory analysis with wild Testudo diets have revealed Calcium to Phosphorus ratios as high as 14:1. Many captive diets are very poor in this respect.

5. Natural UV-B from unfiltered sunlight is simply unbeatable. If this is difficult because of your location, you will need some form of artificial UVB lighting. This is a complex area in its own right. At this time, I feel florescent UVB tubes are a safer option in most situations than combined-heat-light sources. See the UV Guide for a more detailed discussion. There are various options, from mercury-vapor to metal halide - but all need to be installed correctly and used with care.

6. Basking lamps and radiant heat sources used at close range produce intense drying effects. This should be avoided. Humidity directly under basking lamps can fall to <15% and remain there as long as the lamp is in use. This is dangerously low. It it, I believe, a major, major contributor to physical 'pyramiding'.

7. Testudo species do not require super-high humidity. In nature, they experience typical levels from 32%-60%, with occasional periods where it is higher or lower for a short time. In captivity, if levels are in the 45-55% range (and drying effects from artificial heat sources are avoided), they are absolutely fine.

8. They should be housed in well-ventilated accommodation with sufficient space for exercise. A substrate should be provided that they are able to burrow into. A sand/soil mix has proved consistently safe and effective. The 'tortoise table' type habitat is vastly more suitable than any form of enclosed 'tank'. Outdoor housing is preferable whenever and as frequently as possible.

9. Fresh drinking water should be available to all captives. Daily soaking may be required in some captive environments.

10. Over-feeding with frequency and bulk is just as damaging as severe under-feeding or feeding unsuitable items and results in a number of diseases and conditions of excess: gout, renal failure and liver disease, for example.

That is a brief summary.


I would add that there is a free booklet you can download on Mediterranean tortoises by a very experienced keeper in the UK. You may need to adapt some of the info to suit your local climate and conditions, but there is some very good advice there. Lin (the keeper) has studied wild tortoises in France, Tunisia and Turkey - and has been raising absolutely superb captive-bred offspring for over 20 years. No MBD. No 'pyramiding' - very healthy animals indeed.


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## TortsNTurtles (Dec 27, 2013)

Thanks this is great information!


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## MzNENA (Dec 27, 2013)

Yes the photos above were quite saddening and my heart goes out to the poor torts. In the cases above, the pyramiding looked quite uncomfortable 
I am determined to do the best I can to prevent that from happening to my tortoise.
Didn't know over feeding could lead to something like this so I will definitely keep a better eye on my torts eating habits.
Thank you very much for the thorough information!


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## Sulcata_Sandy (Dec 27, 2013)

Testudoresearch said:


> Your pictures showed her how bad it can get, so advise her on how to prevent it. Both her and her tort would thank you for it.



Andy, I wish you where local so I can give you a BIG squishy hug...from present and future young tortoises. [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES][PURPLE HEART][TURTLE]


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## mikeh (Dec 27, 2013)

Andy, are you against enclosed "tank"/closed chamber set up due to lack of air circulation and fresh air exchange? 
I use closed chambers but utilize low voltage fan inside for air circulation with fresh air inlets.
What other reasons if any have you against this type of a set up?


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## Yvonne G (Dec 27, 2013)

I stand by my answer in post #4. Andy, the pictures you show of deformed tortoises were not being kept by educated (like our forum members ARE) tortoise-keepers. If the people raising tortoises follow the advice given here on the Forum, they will have no problems raising smooth, healthy tortoises. And if they have a *little* bit of pyramiding, its not a death sentence.


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## Testudoresearch (Dec 27, 2013)

mikeh said:


> Andy, are you against enclosed "tank"/closed chamber set up due to lack of air circulation and fresh air exchange?
> I use closed chambers but utilize low voltage fan inside for air circulation with fresh air inlets.
> What other reasons if any have you against this type of a set up?



Certainly forced-air ventilation will help a lot in that situation. One of the major problems of "closed tanks" is static air and consequential humidity and thermal distribution problems. In closed systems, you can find humidity "see-saws" from incredibly low (basking lamps) to very high (evaporation following urination). The more air volume you have, in general, the better, as things tend to equalize. Very small tanks are particularly difficult in terms of gradient provision. Whatever system you are using,* I highly advise investing in some genuinely accurate thermometers and hygrometers. *The cheap, plastic "stick on" kind are usually worse than useless, producing grossly misleading readings. If you rely on those - you could be in big trouble without even knowing it. Get a decent quality thermometer/hygrometer for ambient levels, and a separate non-contact ("laser") thermometer for spot measurements. Even better - some data loggers, to record what is actually happening in your housing systems over hours or days. We used those when conducting controlled tests on various vivarium systems some years ago - with startling results in some cases.

If you measure things accurately, you are at least in a position to reliably assess and appraise your setups, and if necessary, can modify elements as required.


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## gtc (Dec 27, 2013)

Yvonne G said:


> I stand by my answer in post #4. Andy, the pictures you show of deformed tortoises were not being kept by educated (like our forum members ARE) tortoise-keepers. If the people raising tortoises follow the advice given here on the Forum, they will have no problems raising smooth, healthy tortoises. And if they have a *little* bit of pyramiding, its not a death sentence.



Thank you Yvonne, some of us here (myself included) have really started to worry lately. 

I also want to thank Andy for all the great info. I have made several changes recently to try to address all the issues that have been mentioned that could cause pyramiding. 

1. Added 1 off day a week for the 8-9 months my tort is indoors.
2. Feeding fresh greens only every 2-3 day, relying a lot more on PreAlpin and JR farm dry weeds and flowers.
3. And most importantly: got my humidity under the 160 watt mvb up to a steady 35-40%. Rest of enclosure is at around 60% (I use several hydrometers). 

I did this by going from 75% top cover to 90% top cover (almost closed chamber. This much coverage is only necessary during winter when my ambient home humidity is around 20%). In addition I moved the water bowl next to the basking zone and added moss (which I water every morning) around the basking area too. Finally to make sure that the evaporation doesn't cool my tort, I added a large flat rock that my tort loves to lay on while basking.

I wrote this in case it may give other relatively new members (like myself) some good ideas. I can post pictures of the new setup if anyone wants them.


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## Testudoresearch (Dec 27, 2013)

gtc said:


> 3. And most importantly: got my humidity under the 160 watt mvb up to a steady 35-40%.



That will make a big difference by itself. We should have quite a lot more completely new data on these heat-lamp effects in a couple of months or so as we are just about to run a whole series of new trials starting 2nd week of January using a specially built test rig and using a new, ultra-high resolution imaging system that can even generate 3D RH 'maps' of the immediate environment surrounding a living animal. We have MVB's, Halogen, LED and Metal Halide systems all lined up for comparison. I am very much looking forward to what that reveals. To the best of my knowledge, it has never been done before.

There is one very important point about so-called "pyramiding" that is very widely misunderstood by many keepers. It is a *symptom *generated by a *syndrome*. It is not a "single thing" in its own right. It is also a symptom that can be artificially _suppressed_, without addressing the real problems that lie at the root of it. When you understand that, it all makes a lot more sense.

A helpful definition of syndrome.


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## mikeh (Dec 27, 2013)

Andy, looking forward to see the results.
I have been experimenting with T5HO tubes for UVB and basking as they do have some heat output. A quad fixture housing 4bulbs is able to create an area under the bulbs 10-15F higher then surrounding temperature at 15-18" height. The heat appears gentle but even over large area with lower effect on humidity.

It would be great if you could add to your test a 24" T5HO quad fixture equiped with specular aluminum reflectors and mixture of Arcadia T5HO3D+ UVB or Zoomed T5HO tubes with T5HO plant grow tubes of different temperatures. Frances could also chime in on Arcadia and other T5HO grow lights spectrums for beat mixture, and opinions on using this as UVB/basking set up. 
Mike


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## Testudoresearch (Dec 27, 2013)

mikeh said:


> Andy, looking forward to see the results.
> I have been experimenting with T5HO tubes for UVB and basking as they do have some heat output. A quad fixture housing 4bulbs is able to create an area under the bulbs 10-15F higher then surrounding temperature at 15-18" height. The heat appears very gentle and even over large area with lower effect on humidity.
> 
> It would be great if you could add to your test a 24" T5HO quad fixture equiped with specular aluminum reflectors and mixture of Arcadia 3D+ UVB or Zoomed tubes with plant grow tubes of different temperatures. Frances could also chime in on Arcadia and other T5HO grow lights spectrums for mixture, and opinions on using this as UVB/basking set up.
> Mike



I will try to arrange that, Mike. The Arcadia tubes are excellent for UVB. It would be interesting to get some IR distribution data from them too. I have used them in the past with hingebacks, Asian box turtles and Rhinoclemmys. I would suspect the heat output is too limited to be of much use for basking with larger tortoises - but they may work with hatchlings. I will try to get them included.


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## wismihh (Dec 28, 2013)

hi all
excuse mznena, this is my star baby she's about 7cm. last september i got her with smooth shell still, i put her in a glass tank with just newspaper at the base(according to the seller told me to do) and later moved to a better enclosure with moist substrate bcs i saw a quite difference between past and now, this could be a sign of pyramiding. the major cause was probably too low humidity. 
past





now





thanks


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## Testudoresearch (Dec 28, 2013)

wismihh said:


> now
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes... you have a real problem.

What is:

1) The diet. Constituents, amounts, frequency of feeding, any supplements?
2) The lighting?
3) The heating?
4) The weight/size gain over that period?


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