# the other legalize issue



## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 7, 2012)

Hi,

The 4" law is a legalization issue, and interesting to debate, but not so big a deal for 'backyard' turtle people, or for those who don't sell at expos etc.

The law that seems outdated, is the interstate sale of some of the longer listed CITES I species but not the newer CITES I listed species.

I know that CITES and the ESA are different laws, but one begat the other long ago, and so now, we have restrictions on Radiated and Galops, both in ESA and CITES, 

I get CITES, I don't like it, but it makes sense to me. What does not make sense is the irregular implementation of which specie are subject to needed a permit and those that are not. 

The ESA is a compliance with the CITES - each nation state must have internal regulations that work with CITES to be a signatory. But what has that got to do with inter-state sale of non-native species?

The ESA ought to not regulate the interstate sale of non-native species, or all non-native species that are CITES I ought to require the CBW permit.

See what I mean?

I would like to see the CBW permit be gone.

Will


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## dmmj (Dec 7, 2012)

Let the government legislate something and they will legislate it 4 or 5 different ways.


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## Baoh (Dec 7, 2012)

CBW permits prevent me from making simpler sales. 

It is enough work for me to take care of the animals, place advertisements/postings, correspond with the bulk who will not buy in order to complete transactions with those who will, ship animals, handle money, manage concerns and limited after-care, and so forth. Dealing with the sales of animals restricted to in-state or CBW permit holder out-of-state sales adds a thick layer of needless complication and artificial market size constraint that I consider to be more hassle than I want to take on (for now, at least).

I often see ads float for months or longer for CBW animals. Sometimes price may play a role, but in the larger span of United States, there is probably somebody willing to have discretionary funding to pay with and that somebody is probably less likely to have a CBW permit than not have one. Were there no interstate restrictions, I suspect that radiata would not remain in stock at all with current production levels unless someone maintained very/outlandishly high prices.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 8, 2012)

Any thought that this might be something that any of the pet lobbying grops might take on, Just one federal level official to propose a bill?

Will


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## EricIvins (Dec 8, 2012)

Will said:


> Any thought that this might be something that any of the pet lobbying grops might take on, Just one federal level official to propose a bill?
> 
> Will



No they will not. With regard to the 4" law, it has already been tried a few times.......

In regards to the ESA, several attempts to take ESA listed Chelonians off the ESA have been tried, but only in the private sector. Unless it is something furry, or cute, it will not be taken off the ESA........

Geoclemmys Hamiltonii and Podocemis Unifillis are the best examples........Both species are abundant in their natural ranges, and Hamiltonii are protected by Indian Law to begin with........Unifillis were put on the ESA so that South American Farms could not compete with Farms in the US producing native species........


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## Tom (Dec 8, 2012)

Sorry Will. I've got no argument for you.

Does anyone know of ANYONE who thinks these laws are a good idea? Animals rightists probably love them... Do the government types really think these laws are doing any good, or serving the "purpose" that they were supposedly written and passed for?


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## Baoh (Dec 8, 2012)

EricIvins said:


> Will said:
> 
> 
> > Any thought that this might be something that any of the pet lobbying grops might take on, Just one federal level official to propose a bill?
> ...



Good examples. I very much like both of these, but selling off what I could produce would be a hassle.


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