# Is there an overbreeding problem with sulcatas?



## Neltharion (Oct 12, 2011)

Note, this is not my opinion or perception. I don't own a sulcata, and had never even given it much thought. What made me curious, was seeing the post in quotes below on Craigslist.

And I only ask the question to the members here, because I am curious what sulcata owners and breeders think about the situation. Is there an overbreeding problem? Is it 'irresponsible' to continue to breed them, given the large numbers out there available? As someone not familiar with the market and demand for them, I am curious to see what people that are familiar have to say. I was a little surprised to see that sulcata hatchlings can be found for as little as $45. 

Again, just to make sure everyone understands, the piece in quotes below is not a statement from me, but something that I saw on Craigslist. I'm just curious about what the members here have to say.

"This ad is NOT intended for any owners wanted to rehome their Sulcata/s. This is intended for individual CURRENTLY breeding.
Many people asked about the clubs that are adopting out. I will compile a list (local area's) and post that back here on CL.

Wanting a sulcata? Many foreclosures and the economy has forced the giant sulcata's to the tortoise and turtle clubs in your area.
They have many that do NOT have homes, and will adopt out free with accurate knowledge. Please look into this if you are interested in
adding a Sulcata to your family. There are many without a home, while people are breeding them. You will find hatchlings on CL everywhere 
for a quick and high dollar amount. Please do NOT encourage the breeding of these special animals by purchasing one or more from nothing more
than greedy people....to me this is puppy mill mentality! PLEASE foster/adopt from a reputable organization who NEED to find homes for these tortoises
that already have been abandoned."


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## cdmay (Oct 12, 2011)

The short answer is yes.
Sulcata tortoises are a large and impressive species of reptile that require a lot of space, dig deep burrows (when allowed) and consume huge amounts of food. In many ways they remind me of Burmese pythons that are another wonderful species of reptile but that are also completely unsuitable 'pets' for most of the people who decide to purchase them.
Both Burmese pythons and sulcatas are prolific breeders that produce incredibly cute hatchlings that ill informed people find irresistible. Unfortunately, those cute hatchlings eventually grow to be enormous animals that only the most dedicated of keepers are equipped to care for properly. Sadly, most of these endearing hatchlings will end up living miserable lives in spaces that are entirely too small for them, will be released into the wild where they will die or where they will displace native species, or they will end up in rescue shelters that are often already overwhelmed with members of their own kind.
The people who actively breed and sell these animals are often only thinking of the income they provide and never stop to consider the eventual fate of the hatchlings they produce. I guess it must be said that many simply don't care.

It is a sad but undeniable fact.


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## ascott (Oct 12, 2011)

I have to say that I agree with you.....on both the Burmese and the Sulcata, while they are both magnificent beautiful ultimately LARGE reptiles....people are woo'd by their cuteness when they are small with little real regard to their ultimate size....this can also be said for many breeds of dog that sales like crazy after the release of popular movies using a particular beed (101 dalmations, Beverly Hills Chihuahua, etc.)

You will get the pop up breeders that are strictly in it for the cash and have no real longevity as a dedicated, responsible breeder. 

I do know that there is little that can be done in a timely manner. I find it sad to see one of these beautiful big guys being sold for 50. bucks, kinda like buying a cheap .99 cent burger and never really appreciating what was involved for the animal that died to then be sold for such a cheap, no value amount....but that is a whole other thread LOL....

I am glad that there are long term breeders for the Sulcata as well as the Burmese, however, with that comes all the irresponsible yahoos that contribute to the overpopulation....IMHO


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## Tom (Oct 12, 2011)

We've had this discussion many times before. Its about time to do it again. I find it interesting that there is not much middle ground on this topic. People usually feel that its one way or the other. I'll share my thoughts, which are opposite of Carl and Angela's.

Some facts:
1. Every breeder of sulcatas that I know sells every single baby they produce.
2. The pet stores in my area still sell them for $150 and they sell every one they get.
3. When they very rarely become available at the animal shelters around here, they are adopted and gone within hours. Every time.
4. I know dozens of people with sulcatas here in SoCal and ALL of them, every single one, are properly cared for. I'm talking about friends, family, acquaintances, neighbors, people I meet at work, etc... I have seen lots of cases of Russians, CDTs, RES, and Box Turtles abused or neglected. I, personally, have only seen a very small number of sulcatas abused or neglected. I know that it can happen. I have seen horrible pics. But of all the hundreds of sulcatas that I've seen over the last 20 years, I have very rarely seen one treated or cared for badly. This is in direct opposition to several other species of reptile. The ones awaiting sale in pets shops could be considered an exception to this, as I think their enclosures are too small, dirty and dry, most of the time. My apologies to any pet shops out there who ARE doing it correctly.
5. I see larger sulcatas for sale at shows for $500-1500 regularly. I can post pics from the last Anaheim show if needed. This is not indicative of an animal that is over-populated.

Some opinions:
1. When rescues lament about how they are overflowing with unwanted sulcatas, I say look at how difficult they make it to adopt. Some of them make it very difficult, and have (in my opinion) ridiculous requirements. Judging from how few people "adopt" from these rescues, I am not alone in my opinion. The rescues that behave more sensibly are NOT overflowing with sulcatas.
2. This is a case of supply and demand. The supply still has not met the demand. I bought my first sulcata for $100 dollars way back in 1991, when they first hit the scene. They are still selling for that same price to most of the general public. Us tortoise specialist know how to find them, and any other species, for less than full retail price.
3. Anyone who can care for a pig or a goat, can easily care for a sulcata too. Are they for everybody? No. Can most people work it out if they really want to? Yes.
4. I don't see how, with all of the factors that determine the market value of an animal, that price is an indicator of overbreeding. It can also be a reflection of ease of care for the adults, ease of breeding, etc. For example: Pancakes. They require a fair amount of care, but only produce one or two babies a year, IF the breeder is lucky. The eggs also need to incubate for a long time. Sulcatas are easy to care for, produce a lot of eggs annually and incubate quickly. Of course they will be cheaper than a pancake. This does NOT mean they are overbred.
5. I frequently hear that people are in it for the money and don't care about the animals or their fate. This is not sensible either. The cost of procuring animals, building suitable enclosure and heating said enclosures all winter long, plus the cost of food alone, makes breeding sulcatas a money LOSING proposition. They money generated by the sale of the babies I produce does not equal the amount I spend on them annually. At best it is a partial offset of the costs involved. I don't know anyone who allows their sulcatas to breed who doesn't love their animals and hope for the best with every baby they produce. The majority of breeders go to great lengths to educate and help the buyers of their babies. I sure do.
6. I don't think the argument that sulcatas should not be bred because someone MIGHT neglect them or not take responsibility for them, is a fallacious one. This can be said of any animal on the planet. As I noted above, this has simply NOT been the case with sulcatas in MY experience. It HAS been the case with some other species.

Don't misunderstand. I'm not taking any of this as a personal attack. I'm pretty sure the above comments are not a reference to ME or people like me. What I am saying is that the handful of breeders that I personally know ARE like me. The ones that I have met and talked to at reptile show are also just like me. They love their animals and care for them well. They spend a lot of money taking proper care of their adults. Selling the babies is just a way to offset the costs AND share this amazing and wonderful species with others who are also enamored with them. I have never come across the "type" of person referred to above, who is in it for the money and doesn't care about the animals.

As far as whether or not they SHOULD be bred, I see both sides of the issue. I think it is a personal decision. Sure there are lots of sulcata babies for sale around the country. But there is also a large market for them, and the vast majority of them will be loved and properly cared for. I too feel bad for the few that won't be properly cared for, but that is an element of human society that has always existed and always will. I do my best to improve the situation for that small minority. This "bad element" of human society really has nothing to do with breeding sulcatas or not. It is not fair, in my opinion to deny the vast majority of good people access to a wonderful pet species because of a few possible bad apples.


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## dmarcus (Oct 12, 2011)

Tom said:


> 1. When rescues lament about how they are overflowing with unwanted sulcatas, I say look at how difficult they make it to adopt. Some of them make it very difficult, and have (in my opinion) ridiculous requirements. Judging from how few people "adopt" from these rescues, I am not alone in my opinion. The rescues that behave more sensibly are NOT overflowing with sulcatas.



I agree with Tom especially on this point. I have wanted to adopt a couple sulcatas but after reading all the requirements that rescues ask for I have decided to wait. I am willing to do a lot of what they ask but when they ask to see a copy of my lease or other things that should and would not play a factor in the care I would give, I scratch my head with confusion... The harder the requirements the less get adopted out. If I lived close to Yvonne I would welcome a visit to see my setup to adopt one of her rescues and when the time comes and I do decided to adopt. I hope these rescues that make adopting the great tortoises have changed there requirements even if its just a little...


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## sulcatababies1402 (Oct 12, 2011)

Well said Tom.Though i see both sides. I am happy the long standing breeders of the world are there to help bring the joy of a sully into peoples homes and will do so for yrs to come.  They are definatly not a money making option and I will personally giggle(a controlled giggle) at anyone who gets to purchase sullys to make money off of them.My babies are costing me more then my dogs ever did and they are only hatchlings.$60 bulbs( broken by fiance 2days after purchase) another $60 bulb plus new bedding due to the glass..greens greens and oh greens fixture and tables thermometers and misting supplies..babies oh babies  its not for the faint of heart by any stretch of the imagination.I applaud the people who breed.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Oct 12, 2011)

I have seen baby sulcatas sell for $25 and we get many drop offs of various sizes that people find loose or they just do not want them any further. We have several sources that will always take them. I agree with cdmay. I know of many sulcata owners that just love the species and provide wonderful homes for them. We do not keep any sulcatas, however think they are beautiful tortoises.


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## cdmay (Oct 13, 2011)

*Tom,
I see your point and just to be clear, I didn't say everyone breeding sulcatas was irresponsible. There are guys like you and others who are responsible breeders. But then again, I am on the other side of the country and am seeing a different picture than you are.*

_Some facts:
1. Every breeder of sulcatas that I know sells every single baby they produce._

*These are also facts:

The breeders I know sell all of the animals they produce too, but they wholesale the vast majority of them for $25.00 each. One friend of mine who produces over 2000 hatchlings a year sends most of them to China--for who knows what purpose.*

_2. The pet stores in my area still sell them for $150 and they sell every one they get._

*The specialty reptile stores here in Florida sell sulcatas and they too eventually sell out. But then when Burmese pythons were legal to sell these same places sold every hatchling they had of them too. Like I said, cute hatchlings are irrisitible.*

_3. When they very rarely become available at the animal shelters around here, they are adopted and gone within hours. Every time._

*Boy, I wish that were true everywhere. It sure isn't the case here. In addition, the Florida Wildlife Commission is getting more and more and MORE reports of sulcatas being found in wildlife management areas, parks and everywhere else. And more and more are found as road kills.*

_4. I know dozens of people with sulcatas here in SoCal and ALL of them, every single one, are properly cared for._ 

*I also know a number of people (including yourself) who are excellent keepers and who lavish care on their animals. But if you add up the people that we know who are good keepers it is still a rather small number compared to the many thousands of hatchling sulcatas that are produced each year. The one breeder I mentioned above produces over 2000 (2212 this year alone) each season. I know several other breeders who produce many hundreds each year too.
You can't honestly assume that most of the walk in customers at the local pet stores who snap up the little hatchlings are going to provide proper care for those animals. True, that is probably the case with any other pet that people can buy, but most of them do not have long lifespans, get as big or require the room that sulcatas do.*


_5. I see larger sulcatas for sale at shows for $500-1500 regularly. I can post pics from the last Anaheim show if needed. This is not indicative of an animal that is over-populated._

*I saw a couple of primo looking sulcatas at the Expo in Daytona this past August myself. They were offered for sale at similar prices-- although I don't think they actually sold. But even if they did we are still only talking about a handful of animals that were being sold at shows that specialize in reptile sales. Of course reptile shows are the very places that big sulcatas would most likely be sought after and exchanged. But don't forget, these are large shows that usually occur only once a year and that draw thousands of potential buyers, so we are talking about a miniscule number of big tortoises being sold at events where there are concentrated numbers of buyers present. That fact that a few adult sulcatas get sold for top dollar at reptiles shows doesn't really demonstrate a big demand for them.
In fact I would go a step further and say that sales at large reptile shows have to be taken in context. Heck, there was a ball python morph that sold in Daytona for $50,000.00, but nobody in their right mind would suggest that there are a lot of people who would pay that. Yet one could argue, "They sold out of the $50,000.00 ball pythons so there must be a big demand for them". *

*I must emphasize that I am not agianst people breeding sulcatas per se.
The question was, is there a problem with OVER BREEDING and to that I said yes.*


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## dmmj (Oct 13, 2011)

So what would be the solution to over breeding if it does exist? I am not asking this question in anger, I am interested in honest answers. And I think we all know what those ones being sent to china are being used for. 2000 sounds awfully high though.


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## Lulu (Oct 13, 2011)

Our Craigslist is Sulcata city right now. I've stopped reposting ads. Everything from hatchlings to that 200 lb. beauty I did repost. Just adding my anecdotal evidence to the argument that the supply has not met the demand. I believe it has here. The same animals are being relisted for weeks. The other tortoises: the Russians, Hermanns, and Greeks, get snapped up pretty quickly.


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## Guggie (Oct 13, 2011)

Tom -

I wonder if your experiences could be colored by where you live. I live in Chicago, and I can imagine that peoples' reactions to the growing size of their pets are very different here than in SoCal. I am surprised when, on this forum, I see people from Chicago's latitude and northwards saying they got one or more Sulcatas; I think that many of these buyers dont' truly realize their cute, silver-dollar-sized tort will soon be the size of a record and will continue to grow, and they can't be outside for over half the year due to winter.

Just a thought. I don't personally have an opinion either way; I'm a Greek guy.


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## Neal (Oct 13, 2011)

Neltharion said:


> Is there an overbreeding problem?



In AZ we do have at least one rescue that is literally overflowing with sulcatas (more on this later), and we too have a lot of craigslist ads with baby and adult sulcatas...but I don't know if that means sulcatas are overbred, maybe they were purchased by the wrong people who didn't know what they were getting into? To me, that seems to be the bigger problem with sulcatas, uneducated buyers... 



Neltharion said:


> Is it 'irresponsible' to continue to breed them, given the large numbers out there available?



As mentioned above, I don't think because there are so many available that that is a sign they are overbred. It's likely not the breeders who are selling single animals on craigslist, and it sure as heck aint the breeders that are bringing the animals into rescues, it's the people who bought them. So I think the large numbers that are available, may be an indicative of irresponsible buying. Whether that's the reality of it, who knows for sure.



Neltharion said:


> As someone not familiar with the market and demand for them, I am curious to see what people that are familiar have to say. I was a little surprised to see that sulcata hatchlings can be found for as little as $45.



I'm not sure that $45 for a sulcata means there is a problem. Everyone has different reasons for their prices. It's a free open market, they could probably sell them just as quickly if they raised their prices a bit...not all breeders are in it for the money either.

About the rescue mentioned above and being over-run with sulcatas. This is a picture I took when I volunteered there last year. 







I count 40+ adults here, and this represents about half of the total adults in this pen. This rescue had another, larger pen, that probably had 150+. This brings up the question, how did all these sulcatas end up at the rescue in the first place? I asked one of the workers there and he told me that some were confiscated, and some were dropped off by people who didn't know what they were getting into...so again, irresponsible buyers. Will these tortoises ever find homes? Well I can tell you that a large percentage of these tortoises will never leave this rescue, not because they can't find a "home", it's because they are home. The people that run this rescue are essentially hoarding them...at least that is how it appears to some of us. So for now, it seems like Tom said, that the supply has not yet met the demand. Until they are running wild in our streets and neighborhoods like feral cats, I don't think sulcata breeders are doing anything immoral or irresponsible.


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## Jacqui (Oct 13, 2011)

Let's kinda broaden our thoughts here a bit, okay. The original question was:

"And I only ask the question to the members here, because I am curious what sulcata owners and breeders think about the situation. Is there an overbreeding problem? Is it 'irresponsible' to continue to breed them, given the large numbers out there available?"

Every time I see that said about sulcata tortoises, my mind goes to the Redfoot/Cherryheads. I see as many (if not more) ads for these guys and see them offered at reptile events as I do the sulcata. They too come off often on the rescues sites, Craig's lists and other places, even tho they don't have the size issue problems. True, not yet as often as the sulcata, but they are quickly getting to that point. I say in five years or less they may be out pacing the sulcata or atleast in a dead heat. So do you feel the same way about the Redfoot/Cherryheads as you do the sulcata?

How do you decide, when you should stop? If you go by the market, sulcata are still in high demand. The price in the market place should not count, as we know that's not always a true indication of value (look at the Homes hingebacks and their low price, yet they are not over populated).

I think the reason it appears there are so many out in rescues, is just their size and the room they take up, not due to their numbers. Think how many Russians you can house in the space needed by just one large sulcata. 

I am not saying "Yes, keep breeding them." or "No, stop now because there are too many." Like was said before, that is a personal thing. I know I want to raise up a hatchling sulcata of my own one day, sure hope somebody is still out there breeding them for me.


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## Candy (Oct 13, 2011)

cdmay said:


> *Tom,
> I see your point and just to be clear, I didn't say everyone breeding sulcatas was irresponsible. There are guys like you and others who are responsible breeders. But then again, I am on the other side of the country and am seeing a different picture than you are.*
> 
> _Some facts:
> ...



Very well put post Carl. I can't imagine what happens with your friends little Sulcata's in China.


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## Lulu (Oct 13, 2011)

I don't think that breeders are doing anything immoral or irresponsible, but I also think that the large supply and low price encourages irresponsible buyers. The same thing happens with ball pythons, another CL favorite. They're awfully cute when they're babies and you can get them for $20. Then they grow and eat rats and your new girlfriend is freaked out (even though they stay relatively small by snake world standards).

I think sulcatas (and ball pythons, and a whole lot of other things) are overbred because the supply keeps them priced at a level where they can be regarded by the public as "disposable" pets. I don't think that creates a moral obligation in the breeder. I think that breeders could decide to take more responsibility, but I don't think they have an obligation to do so. For what it's worth, although I love my sulcata Cecil and have nothing but good things to say about his breeder, I do wish I had waited and picked up one of the dumped sulcatas instead.

I think the pricing of the large animals at shows also causes a problem because it leads people to believe that they can make money when they decide to dump their older sulcatas. That's not proving true from my casual review of CL. There's a 200 lb male that's been there about a month who had a $400 rehoming fee the last time one was listed. I'm not sure she's even asking one at this point.


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## DesertGrandma (Oct 13, 2011)

In my opinion the article referenced can be applied to other animals as well as sulcatas. The fact is that with the economy the way it is (especially in the Phoenix area), people are losing their homes and moving away, and leaving their pets behind. Sad but true. It is also true for cats and dogs. There are a lot of people who just don't take their animals with them and they end up in shelters or worse. In my area we see domesticated cats roaming for awhile and then they disappear because we also have coyotes in the area. IMHO it is not a problem caused by over breeding.


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## Neltharion (Oct 13, 2011)

Tom said:


> 4. I don't see how, with all of the factors that determine the market value of an animal, that price is an indicator of overbreeding. It can also be a reflection of ease of care for the adults, ease of breeding, etc. For example: Pancakes. They require a fair amount of care, but only produce one or two babies a year, IF the breeder is lucky. The eggs also need to incubate for a long time. Sulcatas are easy to care for, produce a lot of eggs annually and incubate quickly. Of course they will be cheaper than a pancake. This does NOT mean they are overbred.



In part, I look at it from a macro-economic theory (which may be an oversimplification). From that standpoint, as supply goes up, and if demand remains constant or even declines, the price will also adjust for the market and go down. My surprise in seeing $45 sulcatas, was that I seem to recall them going for $200 in the mid to late eighties. 

I managed to dig up some old price lists from the 80's, back when hardcopy mailers were sent out. Just a few examples of what I found:

Indotestudo forstenii 9" $125
Graptemys oculifera 4" $45
Pelomedusa subrufra 5" $15
Geochelone chilensis 4-5" $90
Geochelone carbonaria 9"+ $125
Geochelone denticulata 9" $110
Indotestudo elongata 3" $65
Testudo kleimanni 4-5" $225
Chrysemys picta 4-5" $12.50
Manouria emys 7-10" $225
Kinixys homeana 6" $25
Kinixys belliana 6" $30
Geochelone denticulata 10-15" $50
Geochelone carbonaria 10-15" $50
Geochelone radiata 7" $1750
Testudo grecea 5-6" $25
Manouria emys 15-20" $225
Cuora amboinensis 4-8" $10

I was pretty amazed at a lot of the prices from back then. What I found curious, was that sulcatas were not on any of those price lists. Of course for many of the species above, the fact that they are no longer imported has caused their prices to increase. 

At an average price of $100 current sale price, the price of a sulcata has dropped 50% in roughly 25 years. Indicative of over breeding? No. But an indication that supply is much more closely meeting demand? Probably yes, particularly when you can find sellers that drastically mark theirs down to clear out their inventory (I hate referring to animals as 'inventory', but for lack of a better term). And of course, the reasons you have identified above do need to be factored in.


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## cdmay (Oct 13, 2011)

After reading a few posts from members I respect (Tom, dmmj, Jacqui, and others) on this subject I believe that my original answer to the sulcata question should be moderated somewhat. 
The question asked was if sulcatas were being over bred, or in other words, are too many being captive hatched? My first response was 'yes' and I stated my reasons for saying so.
But now I think that much of the real problem is that sulcatas are simply too easily available to people who have no real idea what they are getting...or if they do, are kidding themselves into thinking they will be able to provide proper housing for them as they grow. 
Yes, I know. You could say the same thing about countless other reptiles and even dogs and cats but we have to stick to sulcatas here so... 
However I still believe that the enormous numbers of captive hatched sulcatas that flood the market each year doesn't help the problem and contributes to them being relatively cheap and easily available pet store items when they shouldn't be.


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## cemmons12 (Oct 13, 2011)

One hell of a thread I must say, and good comments for and against! But I live in Indiana, where Cooper cant go out for maybe 4 or 5 months, but I am SO happy someone was breeding them when I got the bug to get a sully. And trust me, if any of you know me (Angela) you know that Cooper has and always will get the best of everything, and if I cant provide it, due to my (crapy) health issues, I will hire it done until my death. And at that time I will have already had a plan in place for my wonderful boy!I plan on Cooper being at my funeral too! I know, I am nuts! Thanks for the good read!


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## Jacqui (Oct 13, 2011)

cdmay said:


> After reading a few posts from members I respect (Tom, dmmj, Jacqui, and others) ......
> 
> However I still believe that the enormous numbers of captive hatched sulcatas that flood the market each year doesn't help the problem and contributes to them being relatively cheap and easily available pet store items when they shouldn't be.



First off, wow, your comment about me, blows me away. I am not sure why you feel that way, but ummm thanks. Means a lot because you are one of the folks I hold great respect for.

I also agree with the above comment of yours. Too many are indeed ending up in the wrong hands and those are the animals which we hear about in such glowing negative terms. There is a side benefit of this ease of buying them, much as happened clear back when the local five and dimes were selling hatchling red eared sliders... look how many folks who never would have owned a tortoise are hooked by the innocent charm of the hatchling sulcata. These folks are becoming some of the tortoise worlds leading advocates and leading teachers to future tortoise folks and even just the masses who will never actually own one. In a way, I think the sulcata tortoise hatchlings has advance the hobby in many very positive ways, which never would have happened if they were not readily available and out in the public eye.


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## ascott (Oct 13, 2011)

Tom...you would be someone that I was directly referring to when I said that there are "long term breeders" out there ....I find you to be a benefit to this species of tortoise... So, yeah I was aiming this particular comment to you....was meant as a positive comment, btw 

Neal, that pic that you posted says alot, disgusting to imagine that those magnificent creatures have been reduced to that....

Chris, you are toooooo fun. Coop and you were meant for one another...two souls designed to intertwine, purely lovely. I also enjoy your being "nuts".....LOL 

I agree, this has been a great thread....


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## Tom (Oct 13, 2011)

WOW!!! What a great thread filled with great insight and perspective.

Neal, Excellent points and excellent insight. I never thought of it as a "buyers" problem vs. a "breeders" problem. Not surprising coming from you. I can't remember ever seeing an unintelligent post from you. Thanks for expanding my perception of the subject.

Carl, I too hold you in the highest respect among tortoise keepers. I appreciate your words and it is clear that we have had different experiences in our different parts of the world regarding this species. Your words do NOT fall on deaf ears. I will consider them for some time to come.

Neltharion, Sulcatas are not on that list because they were not widely know or available for most of the 80's. I have a friend/mentor who ran the largest West coast wholesale/import reptile business up until around 1985. Understandably he was, and still is, very well respected and connected in the reptile community. He has opened many doors for me... He and I talked about this a while back and he confirmed my perception of when sulcatas became readily available. The first time I ever saw one was in 1991. The breeder walked into the pet store where I worked with a tub of tiny CB sulcatas and leopards. The leopards were $150 and the sulcatas were $100.

Jacqui, I find your thoughts on this very insightful too.

Thanks Angela. But I totally got that the first time around. 

Not trying to skip anyone here. Thanks to all for a great and insightful conversation.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Oct 14, 2011)

cdmay said:


> The short answer is yes.
> Sulcata tortoises are a large and impressive species of reptile that require a lot of space, dig deep burrows (when allowed) and consume huge amounts of food. In many ways they remind me of Burmese pythons that are another wonderful species of reptile but that are also completely unsuitable 'pets' for most of the people who decide to purchase them.
> Both Burmese pythons and sulcatas are prolific breeders that produce incredibly cute hatchlings that ill informed people find irresistible. Unfortunately, those cute hatchlings eventually grow to be enormous animals that only the most dedicated of keepers are equipped to care for properly. Sadly, most of these endearing hatchlings will end up living miserable lives in spaces that are entirely too small for them, will be released into the wild where they will die or where they will displace native species, or they will end up in rescue shelters that are often already overwhelmed with members of their own kind.
> The people who actively breed and sell these animals are often only thinking of the income they provide and never stop to consider the eventual fate of the hatchlings they produce. I guess it must be said that many simply don't care.
> ...



100% agreement! 

I've got 11 "orphan" Burms right now that need homes and find myself in the unpleasant position of only be able to accept tame ones under 8' in length...larger and/or non-docile ones get euthanized, I'm sorry to say, because nobody will adopt them.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Oct 15, 2011)

Very interesting thread.

I agree that there's a real problem here. Bottom line: while numbers vary from region to region, there seems to be a concerning number of people buying sulcatas who don't really a clue how to properly keep them. This is evidenced by the numbers of unwanted sulcatas ending up on Craigslist, rescues, etc...not to mention the unknown numbers of babies that die within the first year simply out of poor husbandry.

However, the solution is not clear. Regulating breeders would be difficult, time-consuming and unfair to all those (like many on this forum) who are responsible). Who's to say this person can breed sulcatas but this person can't?

Likewise, restricting or regulating the freedom of buying or owning sulcatas would have similar issues. Personally, I feel the last thing we need is the govt stepping in and requiring permits to own tortoises that grow over ___ lbs and/or ____ shell length. I hate to see it come to that, but maybe if it saves the lives of some tortoises, perhaps thats the price we pay for this luxury (after all, reptile keeping is a luxury). I dunno...like others have said, its a issue that is present with many reptile species, as well as many other pets. But where do you draw the line?


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## Tom (Oct 15, 2011)

Those who would trade freedom for security will have neither...


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## morloch (Oct 15, 2011)

A little off topic!! But in Canada sulcata hatchlings cost anywhere from $450 to $650, does make you think long and hard before getting into such a long term commitment!!
Bobbymoore also lives in Canada, I'd be interested to hear what she paid for hers!,,,,


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