# Fast Foreward Pyramid Conversation 2020 or 2030



## onarock (Jan 8, 2011)

Dear So and So, I am writing to you out of sadness and a bit of anger. As you know I purchased a tortoise from you some years ago. At the time of my purchase you provided a care sheet and advice on how to raise my tortoise. Being new to tortoises at the time I took your advice and caresheet to heart. I never took the time to check and see if what you were promoting was backed by science or at least long term trial. I knew from our conversations that what you were promoting was a newer concept, but you were the "breeder" and I considered your advice as sound and correct. You recommended 80% humidity, daily soakings, and constant misting or dripping as well as a balanced diet and proper lighting. Well, after 3-4 trips to the Vet as well as an astronomical Vet bill and some new info obtained on the internet, we have determined that problem with with our tortoises is related to over exposure to high humidity levels as a hatchling/juvenile. A method I directly trace back to your recommendations. I hope this is a lesson to all new tortoise owners. I feel I have let my pet down in that I followed the advice of breeder that didnt have any substantial evidence supporting his tortoise husbandry method.

Sincerely, 
Your Customer

I wrote this letter because of another Thread. There are still pyramid tortoises on the market because either they are unaware of the "newer" info or they arent willing to chance having to write the letter I just wrote some years from now. Or, they just dont care.

As far as my beliefs about the subject. I believe what Maggie3fan says in that its a combination of things that promote smooth shell. I also believe what RedfootNerd says about having to adjust the "balanced needs" accordingly because your environment cant meet the balanced needs, or your tortoise is not in a space that allows them to balance their own needs. I also belive that Tom is on to something in regards to high humidity and smooth shells. I would ad that I think that this theory has more to do with humidity in relation to heat and indoor basking than just pure humidity. 

I feel that the debate on why tortoises shells pyramid is healthy and good. To challenge the establishment or at least say that the old methods tought are not meeting the tortoises every need to a keepers satisfaction is great. To promote an unproven method both in LONG TERM experamentation and scientific study is borderline reckless.
Aloha


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## dmmj (Jan 8, 2011)

You seem to contradict your self with this post believe what you want no one is forcing anyone to do anything, great country to live in and be free to choose what you want.


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## onarock (Jan 8, 2011)

Can you explain the contradiction? I dont see it. If you are refering to the letter and what I wrote in my belief paragraph one has nothing to do with the other. I was simply trying to reenforce what I have written in most of my posts in Pyramid Threads and the like. I am not disputing humidity, soaking, spraying or dripping. I am just saying that the promotion of this unscientific method is not for all and widespread internet promotion may be detramental. I guess its a bit complicated, I apologize, but it was interesting that you took the "patriot" route when confronted with something you dont quite understand, it says alot....


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## John (Jan 8, 2011)

I missed the promotion can someone point me to it,I know people use this method and talk about it and stand behind it.but how is that promoting it,is everyone supposed too keep everything too themselves.what then should the tortoise forum discuss?p.s I myself do not practice the above mentioned husbandry technic,but am in no way promoting or bad mouthing it.me i just do what i do cause thats what i do.


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## dmmj (Jan 8, 2011)

So patriot is a bad word to you? I simply said it is a free country and we are entitled to our opinions if that is a "patriot" to you well what can I say it seems to say a lot about you.don't start insulting people or "implying" things by what i said See I can use " " marks to. And no it is not complicated either, that just another veiled way to say "stupid" which I am not insults don't work and usually make the other person look foolish. Tom does not advocate just humid he also advocates a well balanced diet lots of sunshine all things that thy get in the wild. And if I have misinterpreted tom or you in any way you can always correct me. the contradiction I see is well I believe tom has got something with his hot and humid idea but I also believe in the others well they all believe the same thing, just maybe different degrees the CTTC has studied CDT burrows and there humidity levels are usually 80 plus so for CDT's humid seems to work, as for the other species I can't say. I didn't start out by insulting anyone so please do not continue to do so.


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## onarock (Jan 8, 2011)

squamata, I guess promotion in the trditional sence might be the wrong word. All I'm trying to state is that there seems to be a trending towards certain husbandry techniques as FACT and not Theory. We have people on TFO that state quite boldly that high humidity and constant soaking and spraying is how you stop pyramiding. This may be true, but at what cost. Thats all I'm trying to say. And that the spreading of these methods may not be responsable in that they are largely unproven both scientifically and in long term study. Thats all I'm trying to say. I'm not disputing the findings so far and I'm not trying to promote an alternative method of husbandry. Do what you do squamata, if it works great, if not, I have read enough of your post to know that youll figure it out.



dmmj said:


> So patriot is a bad word to you? I simply said it is a free country and we are entitled to our opinions if that is a "patriot" to you well what can I say it seems to say a lot about you.don't start insulting people or "implying" things by what i said See I can use " " marks to. And no it is not complicated either, that just another veiled way to say "stupid" which I am not insults don't work and usually make the other person look foolish. Tom does not advocate just humid he also advocates a well balanced diet lots of sunshine all things that thy get in the wild. And if I have misinterpreted tom or you in any way you can always correct me. the contradiction I see is well I believe tom has got something with his hot and humid idea but I also believe in the others well they all believe the same thing, just maybe different degrees the CTTC has studied CDT burrows and there humidity levels are usually 80 plus so for CDT's humid seems to work, as for the other species I can't say. I didn't start out by insulting anyone so please do not continue to do so.



Patriot is not a bad word. I guess I was insulted in that you pointed out some percieved contradiction but didnt explain why so, I took it as a shot across the bow and in my experience, sometimes when people cant fully present a clear arguement they go to the "its a free country" card. Sorry if I offended you. As far as confusing goes, if you read my O.P. I state that I agree with a number of posters, Tom included. My letter is not te be percieved as future fact only a window to see what could be. If you have read any of my posts on this topic I think you would see I am pretty liquid in that I dont side with humidity or dry theorys. I do think that senior members as well as long term breeders and keepers here on TFO owe it to the TFO community to exercise a bit of caution when promoting realatively new and unscientifically proven methods. I have seen people get slammed here for a percieved lack of responsability when it comes to the care of their tortoises, but we seem to be throwing caution to the wind when it comes to our desires to have a smooth shelled tortoise. Thats all I'm sayin. dmmj, agian I apologize if I have insulted you


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## John (Jan 8, 2011)

I've gotten what you've been tryin too point out all along and in fact too an extent i agree but not completely.


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## dmmj (Jan 8, 2011)

I would also like to apologize words may have been said I still think humidity works but I also think that none of the above people you mentioned promote their way as the only way, I in my 30 years now of turtles and tortoises and 20 years now of rescuing them privately have seen a lot of them come in in different conditions and every time I ask about their husbandry one point kept on coming up no humidity they seemed to think since they are a reptile and a lot come from the desert that they did not need it, like I said I believe in high humidity because I have seen a lot of results where there is little to no humidity and seen the result. No one can predict the future about how tom and other experiments will result, personally I think they will have a lot of happy healthy tortoises.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 8, 2011)

Here's what I think:

I think we feed hatchlings too much. I know this isn't a popular opinion, but I figure THAT'S why our sulcatas and leopards pyramid so easily. 

But you can't just take one part out of the equation and say, "This is IT!" It takes all of them...exercise, heat, food, humidity. But in my opinion, less food.


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## John (Jan 8, 2011)

I think they pyramid too have great tombs for oh wait that was the egyptions nevermind


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## onarock (Jan 8, 2011)

Yvonne, at this point your guess is as good as any and I dont think exercise gets enough attention, except for a few of you.


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## Kristina (Jan 8, 2011)

emysemys said:


> Here's what I think:
> 
> I think we feed hatchlings too much. I know this isn't a popular opinion, but I figure THAT'S why our sulcatas and leopards pyramid so easily.
> 
> But you can't just take one part out of the equation and say, "This is IT!" It takes all of them...exercise, heat, food, humidity. But in my opinion, less food.



That is what I believe also. It is a balancing act. I think of humidity as the glue that holds the puzzle together. The humidity IS important, but without the other parts of the equation, it is a hollow victory. Sure you have a good looking tort on the outside, but what does the inside look like?

The reason that adding humidity works for most of US is that we already have a basic knowledge of PROPER husbandry. In the other thread, a couple of people said that they assumed that others already knew proper balancing of diet, temperature, etc. I don't think it is ever safe to assume ANYTHING, and with the amount of horribly deformed and MBD ridden individuals out there, how anyone COULD assume that proper husbandry (sans humidity) is already in place is beyond me. 

Not only do I think that we feed our hatchlings too much, I think that we keep them too hot, and that too is a big part of the equation.

Do I think the "swamp" approach is necessary? No, I don't. Do I think that misting until they drip is necessary? Yes, I do. Do I think that humid hides are necessary? Yes, I do. So that is that in a nutshell. Do I truly believe the "swamp" approach is harmful? No, I don't, and I highly doubt that outside of some potential shell rot issues, or someone using that approach without keeping the tort warm enough and causing RI's, it will ever be found to be harmful.


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## moswen (Jan 8, 2011)

lol:

"dear self: i've read so many sound theories on how to keep a tortoise healthy and happy. some people were promoting a "new idea" a few years ago and i don't like change, so i resisted it. even after 10 years of circumstantial evidence that there were no ill-effects to this method of tortoise keeping, and i knew that a pyramided shell made my tortoise's shell weak with large air-pockets in what is supposed to be a compressed, dense, very sturdy bone as my tortoise's only form of protection, i still chose to allow my tortoise to pyramid.

due to an accident that i could not forsee, my book shelf got knocked over and it crushed my tortoise. his shell was just not strong enough to take the weight. after much grieving and riddling myself with guilt, because i knew there was a way to raise him with a smooth dense and sturdy shell, i feel as though i have let my tortoise down and shortened his tremendously long life, and i directly blame myself for that. i should have taken advantage of the knowledge i had at my finger tips.

the way i resisted such sound evidence was just borderline reckless." 

i guess in 2020 or 2030 we can get together and hash out who was right!

peace.


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## onarock (Jan 8, 2011)

Are you talking about getting together with me and seeing who is right. LOL. My point flew right by you. I was not writing that letter as a hypothetical defending keeping torts dry. I wrote it as a hypothetical in regards to pushing/promoting a method of husbandry that does not mave much trial behind it and about zero scientific fact to back it. If you would have read my entire O.P. its pretty clear that I dont have a problem with keeping torts humid. You know what? I'm tired of explaining it. How about this. For those of you that are looking for an arguement about pyramid shells, and this Thread is not about that, by the way, but hey here goies. I recommend keeping your tortoises DRY, no water at all. I also recommend keeping your tortoise on rabbit pellets and feeding iceberg lettuce, wait iceberg has too much water content and water is not good for tortoises, feed them dry alfalfa. Thats my position, whats yours. Im ready


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## John (Jan 8, 2011)

onarock said:


> Are you talking about getting together with me and seeing who is right. LOL. My point flew right by you. I was not writing that letter as a hypothetical defending keeping torts dry. I wrote it as a hypothetical in regards to pushing/promoting a method of husbandry that does not mave much trial behind it and about zero scientific fact to back it. If you would have read my entire O.P. its pretty clear that I dont have a problem with keeping torts humid. You know what? I'm tired of explaining it. How about this. For those of you that are looking for an arguement about pyramid shells, and this Thread is not about that, by the way, but hey here goies. I recommend keeping your tortoises DRY, no water at all. I also recommend keeping your tortoise on rabbit pellets and feeding iceberg lettuce, wait iceberg has too much water content and water is not good for tortoises, feed them dry alfalfa. Thats my position, whats yours. Im ready



onarock i wasn't ready too let my theory out yet,why did you tell it.


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## onarock (Jan 8, 2011)

Sorry squamata, I couldnt resist. Someone had to infuse a bit of sanity to combat the whole "keep them humid and hydrated" nonsense.


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## Candy (Jan 8, 2011)

emysemys said:


> Here's what I think:
> 
> I think we feed hatchlings too much. I know this isn't a popular opinion, but I figure THAT'S why our sulcatas and leopards pyramid so easily.
> 
> But you can't just take one part out of the equation and say, "This is IT!" It takes all of them...exercise, heat, food, humidity. But in my opinion, less food.



O.K. Yvonne now you've done it, because of this post Ruby and Eddie didn't get any dinner tonight.


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## oscar (Jan 8, 2011)

What I cannot make sense of is two of my four red foots that are kept together outside in Illinois in the summer where they get plenty of sun. They get sprayed the same amount along with there enclosure and also get fed the same food. Two of the four are pyramiding and why? The only thing that I think could be different in the way they are kept is possibly the two that are pyramiding are consuming more food when I feed them, I always feed them together and don't know who has ate more than the others.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Jan 8, 2011)

emysemys said:


> Here's what I think:
> 
> I think we feed hatchlings too much. I know this isn't a popular opinion, but I figure THAT'S why our sulcatas and leopards pyramid so easily.
> 
> But you can't just take one part out of the equation and say, "This is IT!" It takes all of them...exercise, heat, food, humidity. But in my opinion, less food.



I so agree with you, We feel part of our constant and high fertility is partly due to our feeding program with our aldabras. We allow our adults to graze at will on natural grasses, weeds, and cactus with no/minimal commercial food or suppliments.
This is based on personal observations and with many years of working with this one species. Our holdback hatchlings grow very steady with no pryamiding from the day they hatch. They are placed outside in the pure sunshine and fed the same diet as the adults. Florida also has high humidity. They exercise and graze, with one or two pieces of good quality lettuce per week.


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## onarock (Jan 8, 2011)

oscar, I have the same issue with a group of tortoises.
Aldabra, I would really like to hear more about your enclosures. I picture an environment that allows them to self regulate. Plenty of grass, trees or at least shade to help them seek out what they need. 

To all who have responded to this Thread or those who have read it, thanks. My intentions were not to start a war or even get into serious debate about pyramid shells, or to shoot holes in theorys, but to advocate responsability. I have been keeping tortoises for over 20 years and like the other experienced keepers here I have the ability to use past experience to help me make decisions for my tortoises. I am able to read methods by Tom or the Fifes or whoever and decipher for myself if I think that the method promotes too much of this or too little of that based on my knowledge of both tortoises and where I live. The newbie does not have that ability. All they can do is join forums, read books and ask questions. They dont have experience to fall back on. The letter was intended as an example to maybe shed some light on what could happen in the case that certain methods dont pan out. Yvonne, Maggie, Kyrya, dmmj, moswen and Aldabraman (ones who responded that I think have some long term experience) can take what they read from any number of publications, forums or caresheets and run it through the experience memory bank. And, unlike the newbie who may just go on the advice of one or two, they also have the ability to catch problems early and know what to start or stop doing to rectify the situation. I think my position has been mistaken because I have been playing devils advocate not in opposition to humidity and hydration as it applies, but in the promotion of short term and unproven theorys, what ever they may be. Like I said before in regards to the letter, I would hate to see anyone recieve letters like the ficticional one I wrote.


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## Kristina (Jan 9, 2011)

onarock, here is a pic of Greg's (Aldabraman's) enclosure.


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## onarock (Jan 9, 2011)

That is cool!!


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## Kristina (Jan 9, 2011)

I know. The first time I saw it, I almost died.

Then I learned that Greg has been doing this for 20 years - in the same town where my grandparents live, and also where I spent 2 weeks every spring all through school. When I realized what I had missed out on witnessing - I really did die, lol.


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## onarock (Jan 9, 2011)

I heard that. I just found out that there was a couple from S.Africa that bred p.pardalis 5 min from my house that moved to the mainland some years ago.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Jan 9, 2011)

Thank you, Our breeding program is on auto pilot, except the cold nights and collecting the eggs. Florida is very good for tortoises, at least aldabras.


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## onarock (Jan 9, 2011)

what do you do on cold nights? And what is considered cold in Florida?


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## ALDABRAMAN (Jan 9, 2011)

We never let the adults get below 55f. We heard them up in the houses and control the temperature with heat.


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## moswen (Jan 10, 2011)

onarock said:


> Are you talking about getting together with me and seeing who is right. LOL. My point flew right by you. I was not writing that letter as a hypothetical defending keeping torts dry. I wrote it as a hypothetical in regards to pushing/promoting a method of husbandry that does not mave much trial behind it and about zero scientific fact to back it. If you would have read my entire O.P. its pretty clear that I dont have a problem with keeping torts humid. You know what? I'm tired of explaining it. How about this. For those of you that are looking for an arguement about pyramid shells, and this Thread is not about that, by the way, but hey here goies. I recommend keeping your tortoises DRY, no water at all. I also recommend keeping your tortoise on rabbit pellets and feeding iceberg lettuce, wait iceberg has too much water content and water is not good for tortoises, feed them dry alfalfa. Thats my position, whats yours. Im ready



sarcasim is so unbecoming when you are trying to prove a "scientific" point. i don't see how it fits.

you seem to be looking to prove yourself right simply by trying to persuade everyone else to dis-regard a method of keeping tortoises that you do not believe in or use. in my opinion, that is an argument. by disagreeing with someone else you are, infact, promoting your way of keeping, instead of someone else's.

so.... someone has to be right... ? or is there another point that has flown right by me?

so, how much scientific evidence do you use in keeping your tort already? if your point of view is to try to dis-suade someone to keep an animal in a way that circumstantially proves that this method is correct, because it holds no "proven scientific evidence", then i would like to know your "scientific proof" that a tortoise with a pyramided shell is healthy, and has absolutely no need for improvement.

is the size of your enclosure "scientifically proven" to be the correct and absolutely best amout of space for the species and amount that you keep? is the food you feed, in the varied diet, in the amount, down to the milligram, "scientifically proven" to be the best possible food for them? how much scientific proof do you hold about exactly everyting that goes into your tortoise's body? is the amount of water you DO give your torts "scientifically proven" to be the correct amount of water? is the substrate you keep your tortoise on "scientifically proven" to be the best possible substrate? do you keep more than one tortoise together in one enclosure? is keeping more than one tortoise together in one enclosure "scientifically proven" to be the best possible thing for a tortoise?

and i honestly may be wrong here, i don't know for sure, i know there have been studies but i don't know if it's actually considered a "scientific fact" that mvbs are the best possible indoor lighting you can give your tortoise? is it a true scientific fact? i would assume that you should know. do you keep your indoor tortoises on an mvb bulb?

i'm just sayin, your heated "opinion" of trying to dis-prove one theory because there is no scientific evidence to prove that it is correct, is a completeouble-standard. so many things you do and so many ways you have adapted your own personal husbandry to suit your own personal needs are not scientifically proven either, so why are you having such a hard time with this one, and why are you trying so hard to tell everyone not to do it, because it has no scientific evidence to back it up? especially since there have been no ill effects so far, and it is only proving to increase the health of the tortoise, providing that you can do it correctly. 

tortoise keeping as a whole, is a relitavely new concept. so i don't expect to hear that everything you do has 100% complete scientific evidence that what you're doing is correct.

have you seen this picture?






and do you believe that there is something unexplainably correct about the way this tortoise's shell has formed? this is a nice, healthy, perfectly formed, completely adequate tortoise? there is no need for improvement here?

if there could possibly be something wrong with this picture, and there could possibly be some room for improvement, what is so wrong with trying to find a new and better way? how many top-notch scientists are going to sit around discussing and theorizing every possible solution for a pyramided tortoise when there's a hole in our ozone layer?

if your way of keeping tortoises in every aspect is 100% cemented in scientific fact, then go ahead, promote it, and tell everyone you want that what they're doing should not be done because there is no scientific evidence to back it up.

if, however, you don't have 100% proof that every way you keep and feed your tortoise is 100% cemented in scientific fact, then you probably ought not throw the first stone... know what i mean?


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## onarock (Jan 10, 2011)

moswen, I am not trying to disprove any theory and I quite clearly point that out. You have missed my entire point. You seem to think that I dont believe in the findings of humid and hydrated. Did you read my post #20 did you read post #1 and all inbetween? And to answer your question, No I have no scientific study or proof in any of my husbandry, wich is my point. I dont write care sheets or post on websites on any method of tortoise keeping. Although, I have been keeping tortoises for over 20 years and have produced hundreds of hatchlings I feel without long term or scientific study of such, that promoting in the way of caresheets or websites should be done with some caution.. Thats all I'm trying to say. And, you have missed my point completely. You posted pics of a section of pyramid shell, but can you say for certain what caused it? No! Nobody can. And yet you are completely convinnced that its because of hydration and humidity. I have not thrown the first stone. You, in a fit of rage, started a thread about people still raising pyramid torts and you asked the question of why? I posted some possible answers, never divulging my personal position and you took it as such. Firing off posts telling me that what I was promoting was wrong. What you never understood is, I never stated my position, only reasons why people might not heed the advice or take upon certain methods of husbandry that are not proven. My, The Devil I know, analogy. I dont know how to state it any more plainly. You, without any knowledge of what I do, have accused me of trying to bring down or shoot holes in certain methods of husbandry and that is CLEARLY not true. I do have some trials in the works with my upcoming batches of hatchlings. I also have some ideas about pyramiding, many of wich I have shared with some TFO members either in email, phone of pms but never on an open Thread. Some of wich I have shared have made it to Threads by some I have shared with, but they have never divulged that it was me. I wrote the sarcastic responce before because I think you, for lack of a better term, just dont get my point and are looking for an arguement or to impress people that you are 100% inline with their theorys. I dont know. I'm sure youll find someway to show that I advocate high heat, no humidity, and rabbit pellots along with no soaking ever, or spraying. Good Day


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## moswen (Jan 10, 2011)

i didn't realize i was trying to argue with you to impress other people, thank you for enlightening me. please tell me, who am i here to impress, that i might draw their attention to this thread and they can see how fervently i believe in this coltish theory? i was actually of the mindset that i was trying to raise my tortoises in the best possible way that has thus far been discovered. 

this is the debatable section, is it not? was this thread not intended as a debate? why are you so... for lack of a better word... irritated... with me for debating your point of view? and you do sound like your words are very heated, what with the fact that you keep telling me what i'm thinking and why i'm saying certain things and how i percieve you to keep your tortoises... so why do you keep telling me that i am angry? i just simply believe in a theory that has panned out succsessfully for over 10 years with no ill side effects, and it's panning out awesomely for my own tortoises, and i'm willing to defend what i believe in. i'm not going to mouse down and stop myself from stating my opinion just because you don't want to hear anyone else disagree with you. i don't think either of us should be upset, differences in opinion should be shared in order for us to gain new knowledge and grow. i'm just stating my diffence in opinion. my belief, that a tortoise with a smooth shell is much healthier than one who is pyramided, and i'm willing to defend that claim, because i believe in it. and i'm willing to defend that high humididty creates a smooth-shelled tortoise. and i'm willing to tell you that i don't believe your advocating that you should do NOTHING new with regards to tortoise husbandry until there has been scientific evidence to back it up, because really not everything you do CAN be backed with scientific evidence, because tortoise keeping is too new to have that large of a bank of scientific information for it.

now, you have said so many times that i have "missed your point entirely" but i still haven't seen you state your point. you just get mad and use sarcasm and claim to be tired of "stating your point"... but how can you be tired of stating your point when i haven't seen you do it yet? in your letter, you make it "your point" to blame high heat, soakings, and humidity for problems with tortoises in the future. then, down lower you say you believe in humidity. so is this your point? you believe in humididty? but you also believe that other people who advocate high humididty are borderline reckless because they've got no scientific proof to back it up? then when i reply about how humidity helps keep a tortoise's shell strong, the way nature intended it to be, and how your beilef that this humid theory should be disregarded because there is no scientific evidence to back it up doesn't make any sense, you still tell me i've missed your point. so, what is your point then? my letter, depicting the exact opposite of what your letter depicted, and blaming the completely opposite form of husbandry, is what's called a disagreement, which is what forms a debate. someone says something, gives information to back it up, and then someone else replys with a completely different stand point, and gives information to back that up. that's how it works... i'm saying this because (to me) it seems that you have a hard time understanding how a debate is supposed to work.

you say that no one can say for certain what causes a pyramided shell. how many pyramided shells have you seen that are a product of dry pellets and no access to water? and how many pyramided shells have you seen that are a product of moist substrate and daily soakings? i'm pretty sure that there are several smooth sulcata and leopard hatchlings, yearlings, and up, on this forum that every owner will say, "i kept his substrate moist, i gave him a humid hide, and i soaked him daily" (this information given along with the correct diet, enclosure, and bulbs, of corse). i of corse am no scientist, so i can't give you any scientific facts as to why this is. no one really knows WHY water and humidity help a tortoise grow a smooth shell, it is all still speculation, but i can tell you with some conviction that the circumstantial evidence points to the area where it IS a result of water. after all, before 10 years ago, how many people excersized their torts, fed them a low protein, all fiber diet, and kept them under the correct lighting or outside, and still produced pyramided tortoises? evidence points to these three things, PLUS water, which is the glue that holds the puzzle together, produces a smooth, healthy, and happy tort. maybe in the future we may find out exactly and scientifically why a tort's shell pyramids, and we may find a better way through scientific study and scientific evidence and scientific facts, but right now, my tort's are healthy, they enjoy their soaks, and their shells are smooth. 

so, please enlighten me, what is your point? first you try to undermine a theory then you advocate it? i must confess i am a little confused, could you please help me out? i really must have missed your point entirely.

oh, and i never told you how you keep your tortoises. i asked you to provide scientific evidence that supports how you keep them, since you seem to be so strongly sided with seeing scientific evidence before you act on a new technique. i just would assume you would have had some since that's been your argument since the opening post.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 10, 2011)

emysemys said:


> Here's what I think:
> 
> I think we feed hatchlings too much. I know this isn't a popular opinion, but I figure THAT'S why our sulcatas and leopards pyramid so easily.
> 
> But you can't just take one part out of the equation and say, "This is IT!" It takes all of them...exercise, heat, food, humidity. But in my opinion, less food.



That was very well-said. Thank you. It's a delight when I hear someone else say what I've been thinking lately.


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## Tom (Jan 10, 2011)

I just found this thread and read the whole thing. I've been doing the reptile show thing for the last three days straight, so sorry for getting to the party so late.

Onarock, you are my friend and I get your point, but we have all been "flying by the seat of our pants" for the last 30 years or more with no scientific proof or evidence for how we do, or have done, things. At best we have gone by speculation based on average temps and humidity readings for huge ranges that encompass millions of microclimates within thousands of square miles. This info, however useful it is or isn't, really only applies to adults that hang out in the open. All of the tried and true (and failed) methods of the past were derived by the same process by which we have now derived methods that work. To spell it out very simply: Past methods = 100% failure. Current ("reckless") methods = 100% success. It saddens me that you think that I (we) are just making this stuff up haphazardly and going all nuts with our tortoises. You've talked to me on the phone many times. Do I really seem that stupid or irresponsible... potentially "reckless", as you put it? The leaders of the past have failed us miserably. It is time for youngin's like us to get up and take bold steps in the right direction. Because we don't have decades of success to back it up yet does not make it wrong or reckless. In fact we do have one decade of success to back this up. Richard Fife has ben using humidity to grow smooth healthy torts for at least 10 years. Not as "wet" as what I've been doing for the last three years, but certainly wetter than any of the old timers would ever advocate for "desert" species.

Pyramiding has been my passion and obsession for 20 years now. I hold two animal related degrees. I have taken numerous classes throughout high school and college on animal anatomy and physiology. I've been keeping reptiles since I was 7 years old in 1979. My wife holds a masters in Microbiology and was a vet tech for 13 years. I count many doctors, medical professionals and veterinarians among my close friends. I have read every veterinary reptile book I can find cover to cover several times. I have read every husbandry article and scientific study I can find. I have experimented with many factors over the years, as have many others, who have shared their findings with me. I reached this point very gradually and very carefully. I want to assure you that there is nothing "reckless" whatsoever about any of it, or any promotion of it. You ask any of the members here who have been to my place and seen my torts first hand whether or not they see anything but super healthy tortoises with these methods. My older torts are stunted and pyramided. All of the newer ones, that have been raised with these new techniques, show nothing but excellent health and smooth growth. I even have a juvenile that shows in her scutes forever the TRANSITION between the old and new methods. I once said in another thread that just because tortoises can SURVIVE less than optimal conditions, doesn't mean that we should intentionally INFLICT less than optimal conditions upon them. It is a medical fact that drinking more water than you "need" or being more hydrated than the minimum required is not harmful. In fact, if you ask any doctor, they will tell you that is is rather healthy for you. Vets will tell you the same thing regarding hydration and animals. What kind of long term damage are you expecting from proper hydration? I can tell YOU all about the long term damage from not enough hydration.

Funny thing is your letter is exactly the type that I would like to send to the "experts" whose advice I followed for the last three decades, with a few minor changes, of course. What has really become apparent lately is that those "experts" are only human and they only have the same powers of rationalization and deduction that I have. Some of them quite a lot less so... 

Moswen, Post #30 above was very well written and you made some excellent points. I have to agree with you on all the way down the page.


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## onarock (Jan 10, 2011)

moswen said:


> i didn't realize i was trying to argue with you to impress other people, thank you for enlightening me. please tell me, who am i here to impress, that i might draw their attention to this thread and they can see how fervently i believe in this coltish theory? i was actually of the mindset that i was trying to raise my tortoises in the best possible way that has thus far been discovered.
> 
> *Awesome!
> 
> ...


*

*Wrong. I am strongly sided against the Open, As a matter of fact, promotion of new techniques without scientific backing. It has been my position since the opening post. My positon is promoting, advocating new or unproven theory without caution or disclaimer.


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## John (Jan 10, 2011)

boy its gettin hot in here now!


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## onarock (Jan 10, 2011)

Tom, I never satated that all this new info was made up haphazrdly. I have talked to you on the phone and I do consider you a friend. I also feel that your theory along with the Fifes is still speculation and without science it allways will be. Sorry, that is just fact. Its why its called science. Past methods dont = 100% failure and new methods dont = to 100% success. Your kind of overstating. No Tom, I dont think your stupid. As your friend, a bit irresponsable? maybe? Not that I think what your doing is malicious, I have told you on the phone and in emails my opinion on what your doing. I think Ive been supportive. Your right, the leaders in the past to some extent have failed us and I think it is time for us youngins to step to the forefront, but in a responsable manner. We should not be applying our theorys of husbandry with their methods of reckelessness or "flying by the seat of our pants" as they did. We need to be better in everyway. I have shared with you some of my experience in husbandry and what I think may or may not be the cause of pyramid shells. I have shared husbandry technique and tips with you that I have not shared with anyone else. Mainly because I feel you have the experience to decipher what I have told you for yourself and that any complications due to the application of such tips or techniques could easily be rectified by you. This is not true for the Newbie. I think you also missed my point. Im not debating heat and hydration I'm promoting responsability. You yourself stated that you would like to send a letter like that to someone but you would change a few words. I think I know what those words are. My point is, I would hate for someone to send you one of those letters 20 years from now. And, without scientific study or at least long term trial that letter is a real possablity. We do need to move foreward, we do need to apply new tchniques I just think that putting these new methods and techniques out for all to see should be done in a responsable manner.


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## dmmj (Jan 10, 2011)

I have excused myself for the most part from this, having said my piece earlier, but I am curious what would you consider a scientific study? how long term of a study are we talking about?


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## moswen (Jan 10, 2011)

so then, ona you believe that a decade's worth of nothing but good results in humidity with tortoises does not give enough sufficient information to share a good husbandry technique with the general public? are you saying that you believe that the "newbie's" tortoise deserves to grow up in a way that you know is wrong, PYRAMIDED, because they don't have sufficient knowledge in how to keep a tortoise, and see a change (for the worse) for their tortoise, should such a case occur? which hasn't yet? when do you think it will be time? in 20 more years? then in 20 years you can say "oops, sorry newbies of 20 years ago. i knew the way that you were keeping them was wrong, but i didn't want to impart to you the way that is considered "right" today because that information wasn't scientifically proven, just like the information that i gave you wasn't scientifically proven." what kind of sense does that even make? in 20 more years a newbie to the tortoise world will still be a newbie, how then would you proceed in teaching a newbie a technique that, in your opinion, requires 20+ years of experience with tortoises? i disagree with you again. i think that every tortoise deserves to be raised correctly, with the best knowledge available, in order to prevent such a horrible and uncorrectable shell problem that IS bad for your tortoise. i think that you are still basically saying that high humidity will cause problems in the future, so you think you shouldn't teach anyone about it. basically you would prefer to hide the information and keep it only for some elite tortoise owner club that you personally find acceptable, knowledgeable, and experienced enough to share the sacred information with, and allow some new tortoise owner to keep their tortoise in a way that has been proven to be incorrect husbandry, just because this new information isn't scientifically proven. 

i still stand beside the fact that a pyramided tortoise is a horrible thing to do to him/her, and the idea that a better husbandry technique should not be persued without scientific fact is still a double standard. have you ever given advice to anyone who you have sold a tort to? do you just say "here's the tort, don't call me again." ? surely you have given someone information somewhere along the road. would this information, if you have given any, include a basic tortoise keeping concept that may allow pyramiding to occur? pyramiding is a horrible, uncorrectable, unnatural thing, and i'm not putting words in your mouth or saying what you think, but i'm sure you can't say that pyramiding is not wrong. if you are knowingly giving wrong information to a new tortoise owner just because a new theory or technique (that has worked for 10 years, which is 10 years longer than the old technique that you may or may not be instructing a new tortoise owner to use) doesn't have scientific backing, you're double standarding yourself again, because raising them to be pyramided does not have a scientific background of "correct! this is the best and only way to raise a tortoise!" keeping with what you know just because you know the NEGATIVE side effects that will occur doesn't make it right. that's like a woman who gets beat but she stays with the man because at least she knows what to expect, even if she knows it's wrong. 

if you have ever advocated a theory that promotes the fact that pyramidiing, or the husbandry that leads to pyramiding, is okay, then you have not been responsible, according to your own statement. i personally can't believe that you've never shared information on how to keep a tortoise with a newbie before, and if you have, i'm assuming that since you're so against telling them about humididty, then you probably told them about how to keep a tortoise so that it will pyramid. which, as we all know, is wrong, and has no scientific backing to be correct. 

i think that anyone who can sell a tortoise that is pyramided, call it beautiful, and praise his husbandry techniques, should not be keeping or selling tortoises. if you're keeping and/or selling tortoises and they are still pyramiding today, i think you're wrong. (not you specifically ona, just "you" as a general statement.) this is a horrbile way to keep animals, in a condition that you cannot fix, and in a way that creates problems and weakens their ONLY line of defense that nature has given them. what a horrible way to live. i think if you're keeping tortoises humid-ly, and selling them with smooth shells, then you should advise everyone that you meet or sell tortoises to to do the same thing. if you can tell them how to keep it humid, then you can tell them how to keep the temperatures up and how to look for shell rot and uri's. every person on the planet deserves how to properly care for an animal in their care, regardless of how "unscientific" the evidence is. in fact, every aspect of tortoise keeping is pretty much "unscientific." if you give them any information at all, you might as well give them the right information. just because one way is NOT scientific, doesn't prove that your way IS.

almost nothing is known about hatchlings and yearlings in the wild, which can only mean that almost no scientific evidence can be proven on how to keep them. have you ever sold, and given information on how to keep, a hatcling? if you've ever said anything to someone who has bought one of your hatchlings besides "almost nothing is known about hatchlings. they spend almost all of their time in hiding" then you're still double standard-ing yourself. not sharing information about how to keep an animal in the best possible way is an irresponsible thing to do.

that makes me think of back in the cave man days when flint was used for a knife. just because we didn't know how to work metal that makes a better blade doesn't mean that the information of flint-knapping should not have been used, just because there was a better way out there, we just didn't know it yet. you use what you've got, and you share your information with your fellow hobbyists, new or old, and you learn from your mistakes, and you make improvements as needed. you never know, the "unworthy newbie" may just be the person who solves the mystery of pyramiding.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 10, 2011)

dmmj said:


> I have excused myself for the most part from this, having said my piece earlier, but I am curious what would you consider a scientific study? how long term of a study are we talking about?



And in the meantime, the present day, multiple, many, many sulcata and leopard babies in the new tortoise-keepers hands will grow pyramided or die. Thank goodness for Tom's theory taking the forefront and not being tested in the background.


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## onarock (Jan 10, 2011)

Thats a good question. I have thought about this myself and the answer is I dont know. Without knowing for certain the possible specific problems attributed to certain husbandry techniques then I would imagine it would be somewhere in the area of the tortoises life span. If there is an issue of bone density in overly humid tortoises, how long does that take to show itself. Further, just because a tortoises shell is smooth doesnt mean its healthy, wich only adds to the confusion. We could be over compinating with high humidity and an unnecissary amount of hydration because our technique is lacking in some other area, but the results we see with the smooth shell blinds us to the speculation or possibility that there could be an internal issue. 

You know its funny. All I'm trying to advocate both here and on moswens thread is responsability. You know I recall a father posting on TFO that his young son had lost interest in his tortoise and the father wanted advice as to what to do. The guy got torched on here and I havnt seen him post since. Most of what I read was about his lack of responsability and someone actually called him a bad father. Marty333 had an issue with chevy (rip) and people attacked her calling her in-mature and her parents irresoponsable and some started setting standards of who should and shouldnt be able to keep tortoises.
But, when it comes to advocating responsability in regards to husbandry and the promotion no one wants to hear it. People want to start debates over why pyramiding occurs. I am trying to stay clear of that debate. I have a friend accuse me of thinking hes stupid. What? Most of what I read on TFO are posts of people saying, be responsable, when in doubt take it to the vet, be responsable, help your kids with the care, be responsable, get it the right lighting. etc.etc. But, if I say that I promote responsability when it comes to the promotion or advocation of certain husbandry methods, that doesnt seem to work here on TFO. I think TFO just became a read only forum for me. Aloha


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## jackrat (Jan 10, 2011)

Good.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 10, 2011)

*"I think TFO just became a read only forum for me. Aloha" *

Be responsible and keep your word onarock...

Terry K


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## John (Jan 10, 2011)

IF everyone could grow a smooth tort would that hurt some breeders business?oh I'm sorry thats a different debate


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## zzzdanz (Jan 10, 2011)

I think there was good points on both sides of the debate.I also don't see why what Ona was saying was so hard to understand,but I think I'll keep my opinions to myself on that.

I have to say, I'm a bit shocked by the childish comments at the end of this...I don't want to see a member with all of the exp. Ona has leave,or not contribute..


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## John (Jan 10, 2011)

anyway I stated early on that Igot onarocks point and i do,this was never about the technic it self it was about sharing the technic which i feel is on the extreme side.most newbies armed with fifes book will probably get along fine,richard did and does.me i do things a little different around 60% rh.I think for a newbie extreme humidity may be a large risk you don't know everyones situation.if that enclosure gets cold one night and they are that wet its trouble.and someone new may not know how or have the means too deal with it.I'm not against tom's theory I'm very interested and watching too see it develop this could very well be the guy who figured it out.and before anyone jumps me let it be understood i keep my torts the way i do because thats what I do it has nothing too do with any one theory its a little forum and a little fife and a few odds and ends i learned along the way.lastly i don't think anyone should leave the forum over something like this nor do i think anyone should be banned for speakin their mind,i got the impression from a few early on that you either agree with them or be shunned don't dare question or you'll be shunned.thats not how it should be.luckily for everyone im a fungus that won't go away.lol john


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## moswen (Jan 10, 2011)

how can you say "what?" when you so clearly stated that what "your friend" was doing you believed to be "borderline reckless"? do you not understand what you said? 

since you promote "responsiblity in the promotion or advocation of certain husbandry techniques" then you should not be saying anything at all about husbandry techniques, in my opinion. because, in my opinion, (and it's only that; i can't speak for anyone else) promoting a technique that allows a tortoise to pyramid is INCREDIBLY irresponsible, ESPECIALLY since we know how bad pyramiding is for a tortoise. and you obviously don't agree with promoting the humid theory, save in the company of those special someones you deem worthy with the golden secret, and there's really no other husbandry techniques to speak of. it's either humid, or dry. because on either side of the equation, neither person is disagreeing with proper diet, excersize, and lighting, and direct sunlight when at all possible. so, if you're trying to be responsible, and only promote those husbandry theories with proven scientific facts that prove a husbandry theory to be completely and 100% good and proper for your tortoise, then i say that you should try not to promote anything at all when it comes to husbandry. especially "caution in the face of a new theory." because, are you being cautious in raising your tortoise in a way that might cause it to pyramid, and accepting that as the "best" way? that's not very responsible, or cautious, of anyone. it's worse than "blind recklessness" because that recklessness is KNOWINGLY reckless. 

you're doing something terrible to your tortoise, KNOWING the consequences of your actions... how cruel is that? i could understand more if someone didn't know, had no experience, did not understand. but you, and your mighty 20 years of experience, you know better.

and if you're trying to stay out of a debate, don't start a debate in the debate section, even if it is a "response" to someone's heated words about being upset by a post that she saw, speaking to fellow tortoise members who SHOULD understand the same level of love for the tortoise that she has. 

my opinion is; "be responsible, don't promote husbandry that may lead to a pyramided tort." 

as to the two specific instances you have spoken of, i quite clearly remember both, and i remember being shocked at some of the replies, and i ever so clearly remember coming to the defense of both persons and disagreeing whole-heardedly with anyone who was speaking negatively with regards to said persons. and, since the two of us are really the only two in this particular debate, the instances you provided have an empty meaning. you should not judge the entire forum on my responses to you, and make a situation warped in order to fit your needs. there are a lot of people on here, and it's possible that some or a lot of them may not 100% agree with me. i am personally proud of how responsible i thought that both of the above said persons were conducting themselves, and i think they were both trying to do the best they could with the knowledge and ability that they had. 

do you want to be responsible for 2 million pyramided tortoises in 20 years? i don't. i want to tell everyone i can about a way to keep their tortoise's shells hard and smooth. since when does a smooth shell equal a negative aspect on bone density? how can you possibly say that a smooth shelled tortoise may not have the correct bone density? how many pyramided tortoises have correct amounts of bone density? that excuse and/or fear sounds a little paper thin to me.

the irresponsible part is knowing that there is a better way to raise a tortoise and resisting it, for whatever reason, and clinging to a way that is known to be wrong, for some other unexplained reason. you, or i, can't even fathom what could possibly be wrong with a smooth-shelled tortoise that has been raised the same way you are probably raising yours (only with higher humididty) because there haven't been any long-term, un-treatable or fixable side effects. the same cannot be said for purposely pyramiding a tortoise.


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## dmmj (Jan 10, 2011)

I believe onarock thinks this and you can correct me if I am wrong, " High humidity raising may one day lead to bone problems" that is what I have gathered from his posts. For some reason he thinks or fears or suspects that we may being doing some unforeseen harm to them by doing this. while I respect his thoughts it is not one I agree with (there I go being a patriot again).


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## moswen (Jan 10, 2011)

haha john- are you a fungus that i can feed my spiders? if so, i'd be so delighted if you stuck around.


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## John (Jan 10, 2011)

fife book pg 61 this large leopard tortoise fro a collection in florida has occasional bouts with shell fungus related to the humid enviornment. I' m new what do i do about shell fungus and why does it happen thanks



moswen said:


> haha john- are you a fungus that i can feed my spiders? if so, i'd be so delighted if you stuck around.



dang i hate spiders i'd sooner wrestle a gator then hold a dang spider



dmmj said:


> I believe onarock thinks this and you can correct me if I am wrong, " High humidity raising may one day lead to bone problems" that is what I have gathered from his posts. For some reason he thinks or fears or suspects that we may being doing some unforeseen harm to them by doing this. while I respect his thoughts it is not one I agree with (there I go being a patriot again).



no i don't think he believes that he is simply saying what if it turns out that way 20 years from now orten maybe i lost track


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## moswen (Jan 10, 2011)

squamata said:


> dang i hate spiders i'd sooner wrestle a gator then hold a dang spider





no i meant my spider tortoises lol!


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## dmmj (Jan 10, 2011)

moswen said:


> squamata said:
> 
> 
> > dang i hate spiders i'd sooner wrestle a gator then hold a dang spider
> ...




I also thought you were talking about spiders (tarantulas).


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## John (Jan 10, 2011)

oh thats okay then


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## moswen (Jan 10, 2011)

dmmj said:


> moswen said:
> 
> 
> > squamata said:
> ...





haha sorry, spider tortoises seem to be the only tortoise that you have to tag "tortoise" to the end of, i find my self forgetting to do that a lot. i can say sullies, greeks, russians, RFs, but i have to say spider TORTOISES lol. maybe i should edit my signature to allow a helpful hint incase i forget to do this in the future (which i'm sure i will!)


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## John (Jan 10, 2011)

so rock what da ya say,come on back


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## Balboa (Jan 10, 2011)

After a talk with Ona, I just had to check out this thread and post 2 cents.

He likes to play devils advocate, that's nothing new. I see his point, and do not understand why its so hard to grasp. I will state that it is possibly an overreaction, but hey that's his job as devil's advocate.

First off, there are risks to extreme hydration. I can see valid concern for new keepers messing up in this regard. These aren't what I'd call long term developement problems, these are issues of health that will likely present quickly, but a new keeper may be ill equipped to deal with.

Second, I share Rebekah's abhorance for pyramiding tortoises, but am not convinced that is truly harmful to the tortoise. There are those that believe it is purely cosmetic, those that believe it is an indicator of internal problems. Studies are underway at the Tortoise Trust to try and prove that one way or another. 

It may be possible that (and I believe this is Andy Highfields take on the matter) that hydration can "cover up" the issues "truly at fault" by allowing the keratin to remain soft enough to compensate for the poorly formed bone. In essence, it produces smooth tortoises with MBD (he still believes Pyramiding indicates MBD). 

I should stress I don't take a stance on this either way yet. I lean towards pyramiding being wholly cosmetic from overly dried carapaces, but sure can't prove it.

I will say at this point in the game extreme hydration seems to be a good practice, as in my opinion current "standards" in care for many species lead to severe dehydration and health problems that are a very real threat to tortoise well-being, regardless of whether or not that tortoise is pyramided. 

So yes, Onarock may not always argue the flipside well, especially one he doesn't believe in, but I'm glad he's always been willing to do it. It helps me think. Sorry to see him ostracized for that, and daring to question the status quo. He's not the first, and won't be the last.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 10, 2011)

I think that Paul (onarock) was saying that we need to have a caveat before we explain our theory on a moist environment for desert-type tortoises.

But...

Almost every time that Tom posted his experiment he also said that he lives in a VERY dry climate with NO humidity in the air, so the spray til they drip theory works for him. And he said if you live in a more moist climate (like Hawaii, for instance), you may not need to use quite as much water.

Now, that sounds like a caveat to me. No?


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## John (Jan 10, 2011)

the word experiment is the key word onorock was trying too point out


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## Yvonne G (Jan 10, 2011)

The word "experiment" should also act as a caveat. And we didn't ostracize him, he did that himself.

This got to be a pretty heated thread, but I never felt it was getting bad enough to moderate. Maybe I had my blinders on, but I didn't see anything wrong in Moswen's posts or any need for Paul to quit posting.

When subjects like this cause such "heated" responses, we all learn from them. It would be a real shame to lose anyone because of what is posted on a forum.


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## moswen (Jan 10, 2011)

hey balboa, if you mean me, i'm not ostricizing anybody. i'm simply stating my opinion and my beliefs on the subject. i don't understand why ona or anyone else thinks differently. am i supposed to sit down and shut up because he is an experienced tortoise keeper of 20+ years and doesn't want to hear anyone disagree with him? my conscious could not allow him to tell everyone how bad humidity is and how good pyramiding is just because someone is "new" to the tortoise keeping world, and may not understand what a uri sounds like. i am presenting valid points when i disagree, and i'm backing up my opinion. i don't think anyone's attacking; no one's even speaking up, it's just me and him having a debate, i'm just willing -and always going to- stand up and state my beliefs. i've actually held back several snyde comments and chosen to ignore his, since this isn't a war on who can insult the other better. and yet i'm still viewed as the "attacker" or "ostricizer." this is a debate, and debates are intended to lay out facts, opinions, conclusions, and possibilities. and they're intended for someone to disagree, or it would be called an "agreeable conversation." not a "debate." and, honestly, i feel extremely strongly towards having the knowledge to stop your tortoise from pyramiding, but choosing to turn your back on it and attempting to hide it from others. this is the first debate i've truly commited myself to, because i feel incredably strongly about it. i just simply can't see a valid point in trying to hide a husbandry technique that smooths a tortoise's shell because there isn't a "lifetime study" on how this way of keeping could possibly be more harmful than a weakened, pyramided shell. 

i've only been a tortoise keeper for a few short years, how could i possibly be viewed as ostricizing him for "daring to question the status quo"? i've only known about humidity for as long as i've had tula, who was a grown tort when i got her, so humidity in hatchlings didn't even apply to her. i've seen the proof and read the material, i've watched my first-time hatchlings in the care of a "new tortoise owner" grow nice smooth shells, and i'm a believer. i'm not clinging to some pre-determined way of thinking that "what i've done before has worked just fine, why should i change now?" and i'm certainly not trying to dis-suade everyone else from sharing this theory with other new comers. i think i'm more passionate about it becase i know how i would feel if someone had kept this "non-scientifically proven secret" from me, and i created a tortoise that was pyramided because i did not know any better. because i was deemed "too un-knowledgeable" to obtain that knowledge. i would be furious. 

but, i would like to ask you more; how can simply a smooth shell can cause a tortoise to have mbd? mbd is caused by lack of correct rays from the light spectrum and lack of ingestion of calcium. if you are providing both of these correctly and adequately to your tortoise, along with a varied and healthy diet, and other husbandry techniques that are considered "correct and appropriate," AND increased humidity, how can your tortoise have mbd? i just don't see where a smooth shell, by itself, as a result of high humidity, has the possibility to directly correlate with bad bone density or mbd. 

and pleas understand, i'm not attacking you or anyone else who has posted on this thread before you. i'm stating my opinion, asking a question, and awaiting a response. i honestly am curious.


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## oscar (Jan 10, 2011)

onarock said:


> oscar, I have the same issue with a group of tortoises.
> Aldabra, I would really like to hear more about your enclosures. I picture an environment that allows them to self regulate. Plenty of grass, trees or at least shade to help them seek out what they need.
> 
> To all who have responded to this Thread or those who have read it, thanks. My intentions were not to start a war or even get into serious debate about pyramid shells, or to shoot holes in theorys, but to advocate responsability. I have been keeping tortoises for over 20 years and like the other experienced keepers here I have the ability to use past experience to help me make decisions for my tortoises. I am able to read methods by Tom or the Fifes or whoever and decipher for myself if I think that the method promotes too much of this or too little of that based on my knowledge of both tortoises and where I live. The newbie does not have that ability. All they can do is join forums, read books and ask questions. They dont have experience to fall back on. The letter was intended as an example to maybe shed some light on what could happen in the case that certain methods dont pan out. Yvonne, Maggie, Kyrya, dmmj, moswen and Aldabraman (ones who responded that I think have some long term experience) can take what they read from any number of publications, forums or caresheets and run it through the experience memory bank. And, unlike the newbie who may just go on the advice of one or two, they also have the ability to catch problems early and know what to start or stop doing to rectify the situation. I think my position has been mistaken because I have been playing devils advocate not in opposition to humidity and hydration as it applies, but in the promotion of short term and unproven theorys, what ever they may be. Like I said before in regards to the letter, I would hate to see anyone recieve letters like the ficticional one I wrote.



My problem is that in IL there is summer where my red foots are outside. I have them on cypress mulch hollow logs and large section of tree where they can and do dig under. And food source of hibiscus leaves and flowers, mulberry leaves, grape leaves, dandelions, squash from garden, nothing is purchased from store to feed them. I am able to hose down the cypress mulch to help keep there area humid. I frequently take them into the yard were they walk around and graze at will.
And then now the dreaded winter were they are kept in there enclosures that are nowhere as large as there outside habitat. Most everything food wise is purchased from store except squash and pumpkin that I have previously froze. Endive and Escarole are there main greens. There is a constant battle with humidity because of our forced air furnace pulling out the humidity from the house.
So now I have to try to figure out what I am doing wrong for some of the red foots to pyramid , is it something I am doing in the summer when the set up is quite a bit different from there winter set up. Or is it something that I am doing wrong both summer and winter.


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## Tom (Jan 10, 2011)

Seems so silly to leave over some debate in a simple thread. I hope you reconsider Onarock. For you to leave would prevent lots of people from learning on threads just like this.

I DO understand what you are saying. I'm not debating the merits of my new style with you. I'm telling you that I did not get to this place over night and there is nothing reckless about it. Also, this is copy/pasted directly from my care sheet that you mentioned:

"Pyramiding prevention: This is all new stuff. You won't see it on an internet care sheet. It is my opinion and the product of 20 years of utter failure and tons of research, observation and trial and error. Lot's of other people helped me to reach these findings, so its not just me...
Sulcatas are very resistant to shell rot and fungus. I have never seen a single case of shell rot on a sulcata. As long as they are kept warm (75 or warmer) they will not get respiratory infections either. I have tried to keep one too wet and could not induce any sort of problem. You don't have to go crazy, but do keep them well hydrated. Pyramiding has nothing to do with excess protein or too much food. It has everything to do with MOISTURE, HUMIDITY and HYDRATION.


These things are MY opinion and are based on MY experiences with sulcatas and other torts over the last 20 years. My way is not the only way and other people have also raised smooth sulcatas, but it is very rare and can usually be traced back to high levels of humidity and or hydration. Much of this can also be applied to other species, but as of now, sulcatas are the only one that I have kept THIS wet."

I don't know how much more of a disclaimer I could include. Thanks to Yvonne for pointing this out.

We had two very experienced chelonian vets at the TTPG conference. I asked each of them if they had ever seen a case of shell rot in a sulcata or leopard. Dr. Funk said he saw one sulcata. A pipe had a slow leak and the tortoise house was at the low end of the yard. His client's sulcata spent the entire cold winter immersed in muddy water and they didn't know it. He said it had some mild, easily treatable shell rot. Dr. Offermann said he saw one case on a leopard. It had been attacked and chewed on by a dog and had some recurring shell rot at the site of the penetrating injury. Given the number of torts these two have seen over their careers. I feel comfortable saying that sulcatas and leopards are NOT prone to shell rot.

There has been a lot of talk about "bone density" and what happens when they "grow fast" and "just because its smooth doesn't mean the bone is healthy and dense". I'm calling my vet friends tomorrow and seeing about some xrays to assess bone density. I will get xrays of my tiny 12 year old pyramided male (very slow growth), my 3 year old once pyramided-but now growing smooth female (slow, pyramided growth at first, but now smooth fast growth in the swamp), and my very fast growing completely smooth almost 8 month olds (fast growth, very smooth since hatching). Once I post the pics and the professional xray technician and vet opinions there will be no more debate. There will be factual, visible indisputable evidence one way or the other.

Onarock, the risk of that letter in 10 or 20 years is FAR outweighed by the guilt and shame I would feel for NOT sharing what I know. I advocate what I advocate because I whole heartedly believe that it is the best thing to do for torts. Contrary to the past where I believed things because the "experts" wrote it in a book, I believe THESE things because of DIRECT first hand experience over several years.


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## gummybearpoop (Jan 11, 2011)

Man, I wish I had the time to read all this and post my thoughts.... but if I had more time to spare I would rather be taking care of my tortoises.


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## Balboa (Jan 11, 2011)

Rebekah, no actually I don't see you as an ostracizer (maybe a frustrater, but that's something else and far better  ), look elsewhere in this thread and others for the ostracizing. Its kind of sad really, negativity has become so commonplace on here that it slips by, totally missed to the observers. Usually the targets aren't so lucky and are not spared the sting. At least its not downright vulgar such as in other forums.

Let me see if I can word this so as not to sound like an attack (which I assure you is NOT my intention)

It seems to me like you over-polarize the arguments (just like Ona might be doing to some degree). My suggestion that the theory proposed by another dealing with "artificially smoothed shells hiding mbd", reads as "smooth shells brought about by hydration, means MBD".

I tend to think Andy Highfield lets his biases color his research, BUT if he is correct, a tortoise that is properly cared for with "correct" environmental variables, nutrition, etc etc will not pyramid, even without a "swamp" treatment. (trouble is, we cannot agree on any of those things, by giving the tort the swamp treatment we ensure adequate humidity and hydration). He has pointed out that the keratin becomes so pliant at super high humidities (levels he doesn't believe exist in nature) that it could be "covering up" the true cause of the problem.

Now, knowing that Tom gives his torts the "total care package" I'd be very surprised if his come back with any MBD on those X-Rays.

Someone else could possibly be taking rotten care of their torts, but be keeping them super hydrated, and they will likely grow out smooth, looks all great and healthy, but internally be in sad shape.

What it all boils down to is this, I think my bro Ona is overconcerned, I seriously doubt there will be long term negative effects from Tom's methods. I'm sure glad he brought it up though, so I could think about it.


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## John (Jan 11, 2011)

you know i think this thread got way out of hand,i think because of some of rocks wording people thought he was attacking the idea and tom and rallied too tom's defense.the point being made was missed.the man was asking a simple question,what if were wrong?people don't like too be wrong and some won't even entertain the idea of it.tom is well aware of what he is doing he knows of any risks and is prepared too deal with them,is everyone else?tom doesn't need too defend him self his threads and posts speak for them selves.so maybe some out there should drop the defensiveness take an openminded step back and really ponder,what if your wrong?and thats all i have too say on this subject peace out


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## Tom (Jan 11, 2011)

Balboa said:


> I'm sure glad he brought it up though, so I could think about it.



Me too.


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## moswen (Jan 11, 2011)

thanks for the clarification balboa, not intending to over-polarize, but i feel increadibly strongly towards it. i can see where bad care in any tort could lead to mbd, i just don't get the justification of being scared of a new theory and hiding it because it may cause some torts to look healthy, but not actually be healthy. a pyramided tort can look healthy too, and not actually be healthy. so where's the justification in that? it doesn't make any sense to me. what it is starting to sound like to me is that ona's trying to get with all the brilliant experienced minds, draw some conclusions, and make some secret experiments and not share anything with anybody that he doesn't think is worthy, so that he can be glorified for solving the pyramiding equation. and in the meantime he's hiding behind "what if it's wrong" as his excuse for not sharing good, usable, correct information with a newbie, allow thousands upon thousands of torts to become pyramided, and live in improper care, just so that he can get his name on the credits. 

i just don't see where this post got "way out of hand." aside from the people coming to ona's defense and saying that, in an attempt to get me to stop posting i guess, or apologize maybe, i don't see anyone else saying it. maybe there were some comments made by other people too, maybe it wasn't me you're saying that to, but you guys seem to be overlooking several rude comments that ona specifically made towards me, several sarcastic remarks, and some over-used phrases trying to cast a bad light in my direction because he didn't want me to respond anymore. that's the part i personally think deserves a "way out of hand" if any of them do. it's unbecoming and it's not a very justifiably set of mind to be rude to other people in order to try to get them to agree with you. but i'm not coming on just so that i can post that. it doesn't bother me either, i can see his comments for what they are; i'm only bringing it up bc i'm slightly confused, maybe a little annoyed, that i keep hearing that "way out of hand" statement. i don't really personally even believe that the things he said were "way out of hand." 

anyways, squamata (and ona) i do understand that there is a slight chance we could be wrong. i don't see it, but i understand it. what if we are? raising a pyramided tort is wrong too, what's so much "more wrong" about two wrongs? because one idea is newer? one idea may be right or partially right and someone wants to claim the discoveries all to himself? that's it; i'm racking my brain trying to figure out what could be wrong with this information and technique, and that's literally the only thing that i can come up with. even the unbelievably slim chance that we could be wrong doesn't make it right to allow people to continue raising torts in ANOTHER wrong way. if we end up being wrong in the theory of humidity, which i personally strongly do not believe, then someone will write the first letter to us. and, someone will write this letter to us if we HIDE this information and it turns out to be correct, too. only, this time, we KNOW pyramiding is wrong, so the letter will be even more wrong and angry because we are KNOWINGLY leading others astray, on PURPOSE. even if your opinion is that you can get a perfectly healthy tort out of it, which i'm personally not convinced of, nature did NOT form this tortoise this way, therefore i just cannot justify it as "right". because, let's be honest, even if a small portion of the "leading tortoise experts" thought that this type of shell problem is "good enough," then there would not be such an all out world wide fascination with finding out how to correct it. 

i'm not satisfied with raising my tortoises as "good enough" until some long-term tortoise-lifetime 100 year scientific study can actually prove that the way i'm doing it is for sure worse than the new way. i just can't fathom someone who wants to keep a good thing a secret. there is where i become interested in the subject, and the part where a double-standard comes in due to the fact that neither way can "scientifically be deemed correct" is where i become passionate about it.

especially as a new tortoise owner, as i've already mentioned, and i would be one of those deemed "unworthy of the golden secret" .

tom: i'm really looking forward to your xrays. please create a new thread so i can look for it if i miss it when you post it. i'm very interested to see how they look! (but honestly, i'm not expecting anything but the best from you!) i do want to see what a pyramided tort's xray looks like too!


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## zzzdanz (Jan 11, 2011)

wow..I don't know where you came up with him saying some of that stuff (actually he was saying the opposite) but w/e..just let it go.


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## HLogic (Jan 16, 2011)

This is what you get when caution is not exercised.

I believe we should be cautious. Unfortunately, it will be the lifetimes of many tortoises down the road before we can claim 'victory' with regards to what we believe to be good husbandry currently.


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## Shelly (Jan 17, 2011)

moswen said:


> i'm simply stating my opinion and my beliefs on the subject. i don't understand why ona or anyone else thinks differently.



Wow.


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## moswen (Jan 17, 2011)

moswen said:


> *i'm not ostricizing anybody*. i'm simply stating my opinion and my beliefs on the subject. i don't understand why ona or anyone else thinks differently.



...really shelly? if you're going to quote, make it the whole quote. i don't understand why "ona or anyone else thinks differently" about the fact that i'm only stating my opinion, and that i'm not "ostracizing anybody". as in, everyone keeps saying this post got way out of hand, i don't know why anyone thinks it got way out of hand, stating my opinion isn't a reason to think i'm doing anything differently besides _stating my opinion._

obviously, people are allowed to have different opinions. 

what a leap.

if anyone has anything else to say on the subject, with why they believe humidity is bad, and they can say it along with some good evidence to back it up, i'd be more than happy to listen. but this is a debate section, this is a debateable post, if you're going to post, at least post along with the debate- either agreeing with, or disagreeing with something, and posting EVIDENCE as to why. 

i do just have one more thing to think about... how humid is it in hawaii right now? new york? california? oklahoma? a sulcata's burrow in africa? everyone's environment's humidity levels are different.... so someone who has low humidity levels adds more to it. are they the bad guys for adding the same humidity levels that a tortoise in hawaii may already be recieving? just because they're personally adding it, the environment is not supplying it? hummmm....


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## zzzdanz (Jan 17, 2011)

I must have missed the post that said humidity was bad.


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## moswen (Jan 17, 2011)

nope dan, you're just as right as you can be. no one in this whole thread has claimed humidity was bad. however, there have been a few areas where it is claimed that to PHYSICALLY SUPPLY humidity to your tortoise, and to inform others about physically supplying humididty to their tortoises, is a "borderline reckless" thing to do. glad to have that cleared up.


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## zzzdanz (Jan 17, 2011)

I guess we're just reading things differently


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## Madkins007 (Jan 17, 2011)

Actually, humidity CAN be bad in and of itself for a species whose lungs cannot tolerate it. I do not know if this applies to any tortoise species (I believe I have read this about Desert Torts and some others- but not sure) but in other species, excess humidity causes respiratory infections or problems. Overly high humidity can also cause problems with mold, mildew, and 'bad air syndrome'.

Just pointing out that too much or too little of anything can cause problems.


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## moswen (Jan 17, 2011)

zzzdanz said:


> I guess we're just reading things differently



oh no problem dan, i'm sure no one can claim to never have an "air head" moment every now and again... if you'd like to take the time to re-read some of the posts maybe you'll be able to grasp it a little better. 

would you like to inform us where you stand on this debate, and back it up with some verifiable, circumstantial, or scientifically proven evidence as to why you believe what you do? or are you happy with your position as "the heckler" on this particular thread?


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## Jacqui (Jan 22, 2011)

Redfoot NERD said:


> *"I think TFO just became a read only forum for me. Aloha" *
> 
> Be responsible and keep your word onarock...
> 
> Terry K



I can not believe you of all people would say that!

Onarock, I for one think you make some great points. Please do us and more importantly, the tortoises a favor and keep posting.


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