# When is it too cold?



## JSWallace (Apr 4, 2017)

I am just wondering when it is too cold for a tortoise to be outside. Today has reached a maximum of 14°C with no sunshine. My Russian has chosen to leave her nice warm indoor enclosure to spend the day outside. I am just watching her now heading back indoors. She would have been warm when she headed out this morning and is cold now but will warm up again when inside, is this likely to cause any problem as it is different to how natural living conditions would be?


----------



## Yvonne G (Apr 4, 2017)

One thing to remember in in a sheltered spot, sunny and out of the wind, it is much warmer than what your weatherman tells you. Today, here, it is a bit breezy, but the sun is shining. The thermometer reads 55F degrees. All my tortoises are out. So in answer to your question, I would allow my Testudos out if it is 45F or warmer, my leopards out if it were 60F or warmer, the sulcata has free choice, and the rain forest type go out when it's in the 70s.


----------



## JSWallace (Apr 4, 2017)

Yvonne G said:


> One thing to remember in in a sheltered spot, sunny and out of the wind, it is much warmer than what your weatherman tells you. Today, here, it is a bit breezy, but the sun is shining. The thermometer reads 55F degrees. All my tortoises are out. So in answer to your question, I would allow my Testudos out if it is 45F or warmer, my leopards out if it were 60F or warmer, the sulcata has free choice, and the rain forest type go out when it's in the 70s.


Hi Yvonne, yes I realise it can be a lot warmer at ground level but today there was no sun to warm the ground at all. I just sort of work on the assumption that she knows what she's doing and will go where she feels best, it just got me thinking though . Interestingly my cat slept outdoors all day today too and you know what cat's are like for always wanting the warmest spot!


----------



## wellington (Apr 4, 2017)

As long as they do have a warm spot to go and really warm up then it's probably okay they go out as long as it's not raining. Cold and wet will get them sick.


----------



## Markw84 (Apr 4, 2017)

JSWallace said:


> Hi Yvonne, yes I realise it can be a lot warmer at ground level but today there was no sun to warm the ground at all. I just sort of work on the assumption that she knows what she's doing and will go where she feels best, it just got me thinking though . Interestingly my cat slept outdoors all day today too and you know what cat's are like for always wanting the warmest spot!


A tortoise's shell, and a cat's fur for that matter, heats up fastest with a certain range of Infrared radiation. Not the "sunlight" we see. It is part of sunlight, but not visible to our eye. It easily penetrates clouds in the range most useful for heating tortoises, and cats. (keratin). So even on a cloudy day, you will find the shell of a tortoise, or hair of your cat, getting quite a bit hotter than you would imagine. Just went outside to illustrate - It is 10:47AM and cloudy, but not a thick cloud cover. Outside temperature is 64f. If I shoot the ground next to my tortoises, 66f. If I shoot my tortoises' shell - 88f.


----------



## JSWallace (Apr 4, 2017)

Markw84 said:


> A tortoise's shell, and a cat's fur for that matter, heats up fastest with a certain range of Infrared radiation. Not the "sunlight" we see. It is part of sunlight, but not visible to our eye. It easily penetrates clouds in the range most useful for heating tortoises, and cats. (keratin). So even on a cloudy day, you will find the shell of a tortoise, or hair of your cat, getting quite a bit hotter than you would imagine. Just went outside to illustrate - It is 10:47AM and cloudy, but not a thick cloud cover. Outside temperature is 64f. If I shoot the ground next to my tortoises, 66f. If I shoot my tortoises' shell - 88f.


----------



## JSWallace (Apr 4, 2017)

Yes I did check temps, ground was 57° and torts shell was 72° and cat was76°. The lure of outside is obviously greater than being indoors with the extra heat.


----------



## Moozillion (Apr 5, 2017)

Markw84 said:


> A tortoise's shell, and a cat's fur for that matter, heats up fastest with a certain range of Infrared radiation. Not the "sunlight" we see. It is part of sunlight, but not visible to our eye. It easily penetrates clouds in the range most useful for heating tortoises, and cats. (keratin). So even on a cloudy day, you will find the shell of a tortoise, or hair of your cat, getting quite a bit hotter than you would imagine. Just went outside to illustrate - It is 10:47AM and cloudy, but not a thick cloud cover. Outside temperature is 64f. If I shoot the ground next to my tortoises, 66f. If I shoot my tortoises' shell - 88f.


 WOW!!!!! I had NO IDEA!!!!!! 
THANKS so much for this info!!!!!!


----------



## Tom (Apr 5, 2017)

I'd leave mine inside if it was 14 C and cloudy. There is no benefit to being out there when its like that.


----------



## JSWallace (Apr 5, 2017)

Tom said:


> I'd leave mine inside if it was 14 C and cloudy. There is no benefit to being out there when its like that.


Yes that's why I asked the question, I assumed would be better inside but she was desperate to go out. I thought a tort would choose to stay in the warmth given the choice?


----------



## Big Charlie (Apr 6, 2017)

JSWallace said:


> Yes that's why I asked the question, I assumed would be better inside but she was desperate to go out. I thought a tort would choose to stay in the warmth given the choice?


I'm not sure they are that smart. I think they come out to eat or because of habit, and don't realize it is colder.

Every day I open Charlie's door, no matter how cold it is. We are in California so it rarely freezes, and never during the day. Many days, even when it is relatively warm, he doesn't come out as early as I'd expect. Maybe it is because his nightbox is in the shade and he waits until the sun is low enough to heat up the ground next to it. Once he is out, he usually stays out for a few hours at least, this time of year. It seems that the controlling factor is how warm he gets in his nightbox. If he gets warm enough to digest his food, then the next day he wants to come out and eat more. However, if he doesn't warm up enough to digest his food, he won't come out the next day.


----------



## JSWallace (Apr 6, 2017)

Yes that makes sense. So Nellys indoor enclosure is warm but in a part of the garden that doesn't get sun until later in day so she leaves the warm to go into coldness at this time of yea,r early in the morning. She then tramps across the garden to a sunny spot and follows the sun around (if there is any!)


----------



## RosemaryDW (Apr 6, 2017)

I wouldn't say they are smart, but they are wired to respond to light and seasonal rythms in a very specific way. I doubt they'd go through a natural life without having the occasional cloudy day.

Our Russian's pattern are like clockwork, whether it's cloudy or clear. Once ambient temperature is around sixty-three degrees, she leaves her heated night box and starts her day.


----------



## Moozillion (Apr 6, 2017)

Our current air temperature is 70*, clear and very breezy. I used my temperature gun to check the ground in Elsa's outdoor enclosure: the range was from 95-102* IN THE SUN.  I am amazed at how much warmer the ground is than the ambient air. The temp on Elsa's carapace is 98!
She's got her front half in the shade and is sunning her butt!


----------



## JSWallace (Apr 6, 2017)

It's a revelation isn't it?! I've been checking temps all say today and although nothing lu


Moozillion said:


> Our current air temperature is 70*, clear and breezy. I used my temperature gun to check the ground in Elsa's outdoor enclosure: the range was from 95-102* IN THE SUN.  I am amazed at how much warmer the ground is than the ambient air. The temp on Elsa's carapace is 98!
> She's got her front half in the shade and is sunning her butt!


It's a revelation isn't it?!! I have been checking temps all day and although nothing like as high as your temps ground temperature is easily 25°+ higher than air temperature. Clever tort obviously knows this! As does the cat!


----------



## Cowboy_Ken (Apr 6, 2017)

Cats are the ones to amaze me. While growing up, we had a very old cat. She was old enough that she had arthritis. Back in them thar days, we had the orange filament tube type television. Old Eloise would jump up on top of that t.v. and sleep all curled up. We just figured the heat from the tubes made here aching joints feel better. My question at the time has been answered, how did she "know" in the first place that it was warm up there? She saw the radiant heat coming off of it. 
She was 18 years old, and had lost many teeth, (as a teen, my friends and I would jokingly call her toothless). While sleeping up there, often she'd drool in front of the screen. The static from the screen would draw the drool to the screen and we'd have to clean it off while we moved her…those were good times, yup.


----------



## JSWallace (Apr 6, 2017)

Cowboy_Ken said:


> Cats are the ones to amaze me. While growing up, we had a very old cat. She was old enough that she had arthritis. Back in them thar days, we had the orange filament tube type television. Old Eloise would jump up on top of that t.v. and sleep all curled up. We just figured the heat from the tubes made here aching joints feel better. My question at the time has been answered, how did she "know" in the first place that it was warm up there? She saw the radiant heat coming off of it.
> She was 18 years old, and had lost many teeth, (as a teen, my friends and I would jokingly call her toothless). While sleeping up there, often she'd drool in front of the screen. The static from the screen would draw the drool to the screen and we'd have to clean it off while we moved her…those were good times, yup.


Ha that made me laugh. My old cat lived to be 21 he would sit out on the road watching for any neighbours coming home and as soon as their cars were parked he would go sit on the bonnet where it was hot. He would move from car to car so he always had the warmest spot..


----------



## RosemaryDW (Apr 6, 2017)

Moozillion said:


> .  I am amazed at how much warmer the ground is than the ambient air.



On a hot day, think how hot the pavement is when you walk on it. Sometimes you can't go barefoot!


----------



## JSWallace (Apr 6, 2017)

RosemaryDW said:


> On a hot day, think how hot the pavement is when you walk on it. Sometimes you can't go barefoot!


A very rare occurrence in the UK!!


----------



## Tom (Apr 6, 2017)

JSWallace said:


> I thought a tort would choose to stay in the warmth given the choice?



Nope. I sometimes find leopards parked in a corner on a night that will drop below freezing, instead of in their heated night box. Sulcatas are pretty good about going into their night boxes on their own every night, but when they are new to the enclosure, or the night box is new, they sometimes just park outside.

My russians usually retired to their boxes, but not always.


----------



## JSWallace (Apr 6, 2017)

Tom said:


> Nope. I sometimes find leopards parked in a corner on a night that will drop below freezing, instead of in their heated night box. Sulcatas are pretty good about going into their night boxes on their own every night, but when they are new to the enclosure, or the night box is new, they sometimes just park outside.
> 
> My russians usually retired to their boxes, but not always.


Am I right in thinking that on a relatively chilly day my tort will get nice and warm indoors and then maybe decide to go outside , it may be warmish outside but as temp of day decreases the torts body temperature will also decrease and it may then run out of energy to actually get itself back indoors ,so just hunkers down in the ground wherever it happens to have found itself? ( sorry that is a very long single sentence!!)


----------



## Tom (Apr 6, 2017)

JSWallace said:


> Am I right in thinking that on a relatively chilly day my tort will get nice and warm indoors and then maybe decide to go outside , it may be warmish outside but as temp of day decreases the torts body temperature will also decrease and it may then run out of energy to actually get itself back indoors ,so just hunkers down in the ground wherever it happens to have found itself? ( sorry that is a very long single sentence!!)


Yes you are right. That is exactly what happens sometimes.

Other times, I don't think its temperature related. There are many reasons why a tortoise might decide to park for the night in one spot or another. Security, cover, humidity, proximity to something else, distance from a cage mate, etc… There could be a million reasons. The point is that they do sometimes choose poorly and we have to help them. In their wild countries where they evolved and where individual tortoises have grown up, they know where all the good stuff is and they know where to park. And wherever they park, the temp is acceptable since they are in their native range. Move them to a foreign country with a different climate, and the temperatures might not be survivable some of the time.


----------



## JSWallace (Apr 6, 2017)

Tom said:


> Yes you are right. That is exactly what happens sometimes.
> 
> Other times, I don't think its temperature related. There are many reasons why a tortoise might decide to park for the night in one spot or another. Security, cover, humidity, proximity to something else, distance from a cage mate, etc… There could be a million reasons. The point is that they do sometimes choose poorly and we have to help them. In their wild countries where they evolved and where individual tortoises have grown up, they know where all the good stuff is and they know where to park. And wherever they park, the temp is acceptable since they are in their native range. Move them to a foreign country with a different climate, and the temperatures might not be survivable some of the time.


That all makes perfect sense. This time of year I would always make sure tort was indoors for the night (I'm in UK). But once it warms up I trust her instincts more. My dilemma is when it's warm but wet, she will dig well down under a bush somewhere which is pretty dry but I always wonder if she should be indoors.


----------



## Big Charlie (Apr 7, 2017)

Tom said:


> Nope. I sometimes find leopards parked in a corner on a night that will drop below freezing, instead of in their heated night box. Sulcatas are pretty good about going into their night boxes on their own every night, but when they are new to the enclosure, or the night box is new, they sometimes just park outside.
> 
> My russians usually retired to their boxes, but not always.


Charlie (sulcata) does this sometimes. He chooses the corner that is the farthest from his nightbox and hunkers down. It's very hard to move a 100 pound tortoise when he doesn't want to.


----------



## JSWallace (Apr 7, 2017)

Big Charlie said:


> Charlie (sulcata) does this sometimes. He chooses the corner that is the farthest from his nightbox and hunkers down. It's very hard to move a 100 pound tortoise when he doesn't want to.


I can imagine! How do you do it?


----------



## Big Charlie (Apr 7, 2017)

JSWallace said:


> I can imagine! How do you do it?


I get 2 or 3 people to help. Two people pick him up while someone slides a tarp or large towel underneath. Then we all grab the ends of the cloth and carry or drag him.


----------



## JSWallace (Apr 7, 2017)

Big Charlie said:


> I get 2 or 3 people to help. Two people pick him up while someone slides a tarp or large towel underneath. Then we all grab the ends of the cloth and carry or drag him.


Blimey, sounds like hard work!


----------



## RosemaryDW (Apr 7, 2017)

JSWallace said:


> A very rare occurrence in the UK!!



Very true.


----------



## Moozillion (Apr 7, 2017)

Big Charlie said:


> I get 2 or 3 people to help. Two people pick him up while someone slides a tarp or large towel underneath. Then we all grab the ends of the cloth and carry or drag him.


 GOOD LORD!!!!!!


----------

