# Gravid behaviour?



## FLINTUS (Aug 8, 2013)

My erosas have been mating non-stop since we got them, but we thought they were both too small to lay. Well one of the females-around 19cm so quite small I would think-is increasingly digging, climbing the walls, consuming protein and calcium excessively etc. She hasn't been a big eater since we got her, but her appetite hasn't changed. I've put in a nest box with leaf litter and soil and she has dug a hole in it. Do we think she is gravid?


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## Baoh (Aug 8, 2013)

Seemingly.


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## FLINTUS (Aug 9, 2013)

At 19cm though?


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## Baoh (Aug 9, 2013)

Just because many accept a minimum for erosa of around 24cm or so does not mean an exceptional individual animal 5cm shorter cannot pull it off, so I would not rule it out. I have seen smaller than normal hermanni pull it off and smaller than normal tornieri pull it off. Most are larger, sure, but that is meaningless to the individual females which do lay at a smaller size.

Every time I see 17-18" scl claimed for sulcata minima, I wonder why this belief persists, as all of mine except for one have laid between 13" and 14" scl and every once in a while you will come across an account of someone owning a sulcata female which reproduced at ~12" scl.

There are rare carbonaria females that reproduce at 7" scl instead of the more typical 10-12". 

Better to be prepared than not, I think, especially if she might experience some distress if she does have eggs at a smaller size. You should find out soon enough. Keep us posted.


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## FLINTUS (Aug 9, 2013)

Well someone in France had fertile hatchlings at 21 and 23cm, so possible I guess. She's been in her nest box all the time this morning and gone off her food, digging but not one proper hole. The other female has come to investigate and is doing a bit of digging as well by slightly wrecking her nests-would it be worth removing the 2nd female? I have heard these guys tend to lay in pairs. Fingers crossed I guess. If they lay, I am going to leave them at 75 for 2 months-my reptile room temp-and then put them in the incubator at 83.


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## Baoh (Aug 9, 2013)

I would remove the second female in case this is more difficult for her and maybe do a light warm misting. If the nest box does not have a visual blockade, I might put one up just so that she might feel more secure, too.

Is she digging with the hind limbs with the characteristic scooping/scraping motions? If yes, likely nesting behavior. If she does not lay in a week's time, you might need to take her for an X-ray to make sure the egg can pass. If it is borderline, a shot of oxytocin might help. I can also PM you another biochemical your vet can administer that has more "thorough" effect if that does not work. If the egg is much too large, it may need to be broken and passed, but I would like to avoid that for obvious reasons.

Also, a warm soak and sometimes like vibrations from a car ride are said to help, but I have no direct experience with the use of this or any associated efficacy. 

I had one female who had consistent trouble because she had one ovary and had a tendency to oversecrete in the oviduct, so I usually had to induce her and she only gave me two small clutches over the last couple of years. One (six eggs, I think) required a lot of help. The other (two eggs) she managed on her own, but I had to eventually get her surgery and turn her into a pet-only animal. I could have sold her for $5-7k, but I knew it would only be a matter of time and that would have been unfair to her and to the buyer, so I made the call that was in her best interest and she now lives in a farm-style "country" petting zoo. So while I do not have direct experience with Kinixys, I do have some experience with nesting difficulties. 

Keep us posted if only so we can learn. My ability to offer meaningful guidance is limited. I am hoping she manages. If she does, I recommend accelerating her growth for a year via dietary enrichment just so that she gets enough additional size so her tissues become more roomy and she has an easier time passing eggs in the near term. You could revert to whatever your preferred care style is (I am guessing something more moderate) afterwards. If I have a little laying female, an extra half-inch to inch of longitudinal growth can make it much safer and much less stressful.


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## FLINTUS (Aug 9, 2013)

Well I have been giving them loads of protein and calcium since getting them as I have noticed with mating this might happen, so she has already grown a bit. She was digging with the hind legs but after making a little hole she has gone very quiet. I have removed the other female now. The top of the nest box is covered, but the sides are not I have placed it slightly higher than most of the enclosure, as I know in the wild these guys will often nest on fallen tree trunks, and have even been found to climb up and nest in small bushes so hoping I can replicate this. Danny has told me that these guys aren't massive at digging down, they make a small hole and just lay. From what I've seen of manouria, she is behaving very like that-taking sticks and leaves into the box to make a pile and digging down into it. There is a local vet about 5 mins away from us, but has limited tortoise experience, however to avoid the stress of a long journey if I need an xray I will take her there, but if she is going to need anything to help her, or hopefully not-since CB erosa are few and far between-, the egg will have to be destroyed, there are a few good specialist tortoise vets within an hour or so. If we get to that stage, I will PM you. Thanks for your help and I will keep you updated.


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## FLINTUS (Aug 9, 2013)

Just read through the French paper again and they said that this kind of behaviour happened two months before she was laid her eggs! So may be waiting a while.


She has made a proper nest now and is sitting in the middle of it.


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## Baoh (Aug 9, 2013)

I am hoping it all goes well for her.


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## FLINTUS (Aug 10, 2013)

Thanks. They both slept together last night but no news on the nest or eggs.


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## FLINTUS (Aug 10, 2013)

Found plenty of faeces in her nest this morning, and she has eaten quite a bit today as well.


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## Baoh (Aug 10, 2013)

Interesting.


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## FLINTUS (Aug 20, 2013)

Looks like it was just a trial run, everything is back to normal with the male trying to mate with the other two lol.


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