# Is Tortoise-Breeding creating a Time-Bomb?



## JoesMum (May 14, 2016)

This one has been bothering me. It's not just a UK thing, but I am going to use my country as an example. 

Here in the UK, a large number of (typically Greek) tortoises were imported 40-60 years ago that have been living solitary lives in someone's backyard. They graze the summer away and every winter they're boxed and hibernated. 

They're pre-CITES. No papers. Can't be sold. Can't be exported and hence can't be returned to the wild. 

The people who bought them are ageing. They're starting to die or move to smaller homes. Their torts may well have another 50 years and more ahead of them. 

The owner's children may be in a position to take over like my husband, or they may have an obvious candidate friend (@collette is one of these people)... or there's a problem. 

I predict the problem is going to get worse in the next couple of decades as more of these torts who have been quietly living beneath the radar need new homes. 

They're not cute little babies that are attractive to new keepers (Joe weighs 7lb) and they need plenty of outdoor space, but our island is crowded and gardens are getting smaller. 

It's undoubtedly a similar story in other countries round the world - pet tortoises outlive their humans. 

New tortoises are being bred as pets in large numbers and adding to the number in captivity. In some (non EU) countries wild torts continue to be caught/imported and kept as pets too. 

Realistically these pet trade animals are never going to be returned to the wild. Who knows where they originated from? 

This problem isn't getting smaller; it's getting bigger with every cute clutch of hatchlings a breeder hatches, no matter how good the breeder is. 

So are we, as a human race, creating a time bomb by continuing to breed (and import) these animals at pets?

Will we, or are we getting, to a point where we have an unsustainable number of larger older animals that need solitary outdoor space in captivity? 

Over to you?


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## TortoiseWarrior (May 15, 2016)

Hmmmmm....... I wonder cause they don't make it back to their natural habitat. If a owner dies or they never make it through the pet trade, going back is slim next to none. Its a good point. I can't wait for other takes on this.


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## WithLisa (May 15, 2016)

I don't think the beautiful old imports are a problem. As far as I know they are very popular and hard to get.
But way too many hatchlings are bred every year, they are so cheap already, you can get Hermanns for 30€ here. I'm sure there are much more young tortoises than people with enough space to care for adults (especially when many of those adults are pyramided and suffering of MBD because they were never kept outside).

I'm quite shocked that you can easily buy even sulcata hatchlings here in Middle Europe. I believe there are only a handful of people that can (and want) to keep adult sulcatas appropriately in our climate. What will happen to those hatchlings in 10 years?


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## wellington (May 15, 2016)

i always wonder about this too. Just thinking about all the hatchlings that are hatched just on this forum alone.


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## JoesMum (May 15, 2016)

I'm just amazed that there are so few responses! I would have thought the breeders would have swung in


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## Tidgy's Dad (May 15, 2016)

Interesting point. 
No tortoise lives that long with a family here though, as far as i can establish. 
My Tidgy has a chap who has been prepared and hopefully will take good care of her when the time comes. 
it is important that people are aware of the possible longevity of their tortoise charges and should be encouraged to make arrangements for their future, but for the tortoises currently in that position, I guess one must put trust and hope in the people's families and animal rescue organizations..


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## dmmj (May 15, 2016)

I am sort of unclear about what you are worried about. Are you concerned there will be too many tortoises and not enough people?


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## Tom (May 15, 2016)

Supply and demand.


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## huff747 (May 15, 2016)

Tom said:


> Supply and demand.



Never bred tortoises (and no plans to do so) so that just made me wonder, do those of you who do breed them have good demand? Does it take you a long time to move your babies?


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## Tom (May 15, 2016)

huff747 said:


> Never bred tortoises (and no plans to do so) so that just made me wonder, do those of you who do breed them have good demand? Does it take you a long time to move your babies?



If I produced 1000 more than I do, they would all sell in a heartbeat.


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## JoesMum (May 15, 2016)

dmmj said:


> I am sort of unclear about what you are worried about. Are you concerned there will be too many tortoises and not enough people?


Basically yes. 

Someone commented that they thought there was high demand for the mature animals, but that's not my observation and the numbers of these animals available is going to increase, probably quite rapidly. 

Young animals can be kept indoors relatively easily, but those like Joe who have been outdoors 24/7 for the last 50 summers come with a prerequisite of a decent size garden being available.


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## JoesMum (May 15, 2016)

Tom said:


> Supply and demand.





huff747 said:


> Never bred tortoises (and no plans to do so) so that just made me wonder, do those of you who do breed them have good demand? Does it take you a long time to move your babies?





Tom said:


> If I produced 1000 more than I do, they would all sell in a heartbeat.


That's what I'm getting at. The breeders can sell as many as they breed. 

In 50 years time, it will be the same demand for young tortoises. 

However, the youngsters sold now will be fully mature by then and have humans needing to rehome them. They're 100lb Sulcatas, 7lb Greeks, etc and there will be an awful lot of them.


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## Anyfoot (May 15, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> That's what I'm getting at. The breeders can sell as many as they breed.
> 
> In 50 years time, it will be the same demand for young tortoises.
> 
> However, the youngsters sold now will be fully mature by then and have humans needing to rehome them. They're 100lb Sulcatas, 7lb Greeks, etc and there will be an awful lot of them.


 This is something I think about quite often. Maybe the days of juveniles being cared for incorrectly are gradually disappearing and more will survive to adulthood, then demand will drop, if a breeder is struggling to sell s/he will naturally slow down on breeding. 
Also whilst ever there are wild imports there is obviously a demand. 
I always assumed the ultimate goal was to stop wild caught and replace with captive bred.


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## WithLisa (May 16, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> Someone commented that they thought there was high demand for the mature animals, but that's not my observation and the numbers of these animals available is going to increase, probably quite rapidly.


No, definitely not for adults, but beautiful old wc (especially females!) are selling quite well over here for horrendous prices. Hatchlings are very cheap, the demand is small, but they are bred anyway (I guess it's just fun to have some cute hatchlings every year ) and I often read that rescues are full of cb males that no one wants.


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## JoesMum (May 16, 2016)

We can't sell the 'beautiful old' torts here. They're pre CITES with no papers and being kept legally.


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## Anyfoot (May 16, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> We can't sell the 'beautiful old' torts here. They're pre CITES with no papers and being kept legally.


I thought you had to apply for CITES before selling them.


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## JoesMum (May 16, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> I thought you had to apply for CITES before selling them.


It's very difficult to get papers apparently. You would have to apply if you wanted to sell.


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## WithLisa (May 16, 2016)

It was possible to apply for papers when those laws were invented. I believe it's still possible to get papers with pictures and witnesses as proof. Maybe difficult, but possible if one wants to legally adopt their tortoises out.


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## Anyfoot (May 16, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> It's very difficult to get papers apparently. You would have to apply if you wanted to sell.


It can be done. I got one of my redfoots off a guy in Scotland. He had 3 adult Greeks that he said I could have too(for free). He wasn't allowed to sell them without papers. I got the impression he couldn't be bothered to get papers and would rather give them away.(probably a cost involved) 
He gave me the redfoot for free too. 
I don't think it's illegal to own a testudo without papers, but it is illegal to sell one without papers. I may be wrong.


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## JoesMum (May 16, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> It can be done. I got one of my redfoots off a guy in Scotland. He had 3 adult Greeks that he said I could have too(for free). He wasn't allowed to sell them without papers. I got the impression he couldn't be bothered to get papers and would rather give them away.(probably a cost involved)


 Yeahit does cost.


> I don't think it's illegal to own a testudo without papers, but it is illegal to sell one without papers. I may be wrong.


You are correct

Either way, papers are a different issue to the topic of this thread.


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## Anyfoot (May 16, 2016)

Ok, back on topic. 

If the demand is there, there are 2 sources available, cb or wc. What's best, for us to take them from the wild or have source them from a breeder. 
You mentioned all those old torts that have been cared for for decades will eventually be homeless. You are assuming that if 1000 juveniles were sold that they all made it to adulthood. With old out dated care I wonder what percentage actually are still around. 
With the modern way of care(humidity etc) more will survive and the demand will naturally drop. Of course there will always be the new kid on the block who wants a juvenile, but if cared for correctly it will be only one(or a group). 

I don't think there are as many old torts out there as what you think, definitely not as many as that have been sold as juvies. 
Now let's assume all torts from now on live to a ripe old age, the only people wanting new juveniles will be newbies, or newbies to a different species. The demand will drop because all those that have cared for their torts correctly won't want anymore, or they may even breed a couple for their own curiosity. 
This is a horrible way to look at it but needs to be said. We either have a problem and endanger species in the wild by taking them or we have a potential problem in captivity of too many torts. At least the latter is in our control. If there's no demand there's no point breeding. If all breeders stopped today, humans would some how find a way to get them from the wild, legally or illegally. 
Time will come when a breeder only incubated half his/her eggs to slow it up. May not be in our lifetime. 

Everyone always points finger at sullies. Its the obvious one, grows big, lays plenty of eggs. They get too big and owners just release them in hope someone else takes them in. I often wonder about the medium size tort like a redfoot. It doesn't get too big, so it is kept indoors behind closed doors in conditions that more than likely will end up in early death. This is not seen because the owner just puts up with it. You can't just put up with a 100lb sully. What's worse, someone releasing or giving away a sully, or someone sending there redfoot to the grave because they can just forget about it in the corner of a room. 
Sorry gone off topic with that last paragraph.


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## JoesMum (May 16, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> Ok, back on topic.
> 
> If the demand is there, there are 2 sources available, cb or wc. What's best, for us to take them from the wild or have source them from a breeder.
> You mentioned all those old torts that have been cared for for decades will eventually be homeless. You are assuming that if 1000 juveniles were sold that they all made it to adulthood.


No I am assuming that proportion will and that they'll add to the number in captivity that will already outlive the humans who own them.



> With old out dated care I wonder what percentage actually are still around.


No idea, but I think there are more than people think.



> With the modern way of care(humidity etc) more will survive and the demand will naturally drop.


Will it? Demand for what? 



> Of course there will always be the new kid on the block who wants a juvenile, but if cared for correctly it will be only one(or a group)


People like cute. Educating them that cute grows up doesn't seem to work with other pets. Torts are a particular issue because they live so long. Although @Colette keeps [arrots and says there is a potentially a problem there too,



> This is a horrible way to look at it but needs to be said. We either have a problem and endanger species in the wild by taking them or we have a potential problem in captivity of too many torts. At least the latter is in our control.


I agree that they're better captive bred than wild caught.



> If there's no demand there's no point breeding. If all breeders stopped today, humans would some how find a way to get them from the wild, legally or illegally.
> Time will come when a breeder only incubated half his/her eggs to slow it up. May not be in our lifetime.


I am not demanding that breeders stop breeding, I simply asked if others agreed with my concerns that maybe there was a problem waiting to happen in future. How it is dealt with, I don't know.



> Everyone always points finger at sullies. Its the obvious one, grows big, lays plenty of eggs. They get too big and owners just release them in hope someone else takes them in. I often wonder about the medium size tort like a redfoot. It doesn't get too big, so it is kept indoors behind closed doors in conditions that more than likely will end up in early death. This is not seen because the owner just puts up with it. You can't just put up with a 100lb sully. What's worse, someone releasing or giving away a sully, or someone sending there redfoot to the grave because they can just forget about it in the corner of a room.
> Sorry gone off topic with that last paragraph.


I only mentioned sullies a something that clearly doesn't stay small and cute for long. the kind of people who can rehome a 100lb bulldozer are going to be harder to come by as their population increases than those who can rehome a 7lb testudo.

I agree there's an issue with red foots potentially too.... and there's already a problem with RES being released into the wild.

I think we are closer to agreeing than you think. I started this thread as a discussion piece. I am not claiming to have all, or even any, solutions.


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## Anyfoot (May 16, 2016)

I wasn't pulling you on mentioning sullies, it was a 'generalization' of what ive read. 

You just said the key word. 'Education'. That can only come from educated people. Those people more often than not are breeders or long term keepers, most certainly not shop keepers who buy in bulk from the wild. 

For the demand I'm referring to juveniles. I'll bet there are people out there who buy one, it dies then buy another it dies buy another and so on, lack of education.


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## juli11 (May 16, 2016)

The demand on CB animals will raise up in the next years! So it's quite important that breeders continue with breeding. The reason is that in the next years won't come so many WC animals so the people only have one solutions- CB animals-. Also the prices will raise up. 
One beautiful example is clemmys guttata in Europe. Since we got an import forbidden from the usa I think 4 years ago the demand and the price raised up massively. Until 4 years the price were ca. 40€ per hatchling at the moment the price is by 120€ per hatchling and everybody want them. 
The same by testudo. I know many breeder who don't incubate their eggs anymore because nobody want them. In the next years many people will do that and than the demand will raise up again. And than is the question if there are enough adults to breed anymore or if the prices for testudo will raise up same like guttata.


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## Anyfoot (May 16, 2016)

juli11 said:


> The demand on CB animals will raise up in the next years! So it's quite important that breeders continue with breeding. The reason is that in the next years won't come so many WC animals so the people only have one solutions- CB animals-. Also the prices will raise up.
> One beautiful example is clemmys guttata in Europe. Since we got an import forbidden from the usa I think 4 years ago the demand and the price raised up massively. Until 4 years the price were ca. 40€ per hatchling at the moment the price is by 120€ per hatchling and everybody want them.
> The same by testudo. I know many breeder who don't incubate their eggs anymore because nobody want them. In the next years many people will do that and than the demand will raise up again. And than is the question if there are enough adults to breed anymore or if the prices for testudo will raise up same like guttata.


 What do you think will happen when the guttata is very popular and easily available in captivity?


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## Tom (May 16, 2016)

I'm not sure this "problem" will come to fruition over here. I don't know about European countries with intrusive government interference in the free market and relatively small populations, but over here its still a relatively free market with 350,000,000+ potential customers and there is no shortage of willing and able homes for adults or babies.


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## motero (May 16, 2016)

This same general question is brought up over and over. It seems to be a way to promote a notion that there is a problem. I too, have no trouble selling tortoises of all sizes. Plenty of demand where I live.


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## JoesMum (May 16, 2016)

motero said:


> This same general question is brought up over and over. It seems to be a way to promote a notion that there is a problem. I too, have no trouble selling tortoises of all sizes. Plenty of demand where I live.


This notion isn't to promote a notion that there might a problem for breeders trying to sell tortoises. I don't think it ever will be 

I created it because I wondered whether the market for mature full grown tortoises is likely to become saturated.


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## juli11 (May 16, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> What do you think will happen when the guttata is very popular and easily available in captivity?



That could be in the next years.. Because of that that everybody want them now and try to breed them the quantity of available animals will raise up. Than the prices go down and the demand go back. But at the moment the prices raise and raise.. I saw somebody who sell them for 160€..


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## motero (May 16, 2016)

Mature tortoises are harder to come by and cost more. The so called over run shelters are over run because they wont let any tortoise go under reasonable terms. They don't get that many and if they rehomed them reasonably they would be out of business. There are plenty of good homes available. Saturated adult market? I don't think so. I have not seen any tortoise that was offered for free adoption not get multiple offers by willing and competent keepers. Will this be a future problem? I doubt it.


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## JoesMum (May 16, 2016)

motero said:


> Mature tortoises are harder to come by and cost more. The so called over run shelters are over run because they wont let any tortoise go under reasonable terms. They don't get that many and if they rehomed them reasonably they would be out of business. There are plenty of good homes available. Saturated adult market? I don't think so. I have not seen any tortoise that was offered for free adoption not get multiple offers by willing and competent keepers. Will this be a future problem? I doubt it.


It seems conditions are different around the world which is interesting.


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## Rue (May 16, 2016)

I think conditions are very different around the world...it is very interesting - because it colours opinions and advice so strongly. Part of the problem is that we (as in the royal 'we') have a hard time identifying with those other conditions because all we understand is our own.

OT: You have no idea what I paid for my baby...lol, but I paid the going price in my neck of the woods. My baby was local so I had no shipping issues and I met with the breeder who knows what she's doing, so I made a confident purchase. All good.

I did look for an older tortoise to begin with...but all I could find was a yearling Cherryhead with horrible pyramiding...and the owner wanted top $ for it...so I didn't bother. Not a species I wanted, and I didn't want to pay for potential health issues resulting from a poor start.


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## DPtortiose (May 17, 2016)

motero said:


> Mature tortoises are harder to come by and cost more. The so called over run shelters are over run because they wont let any tortoise go under reasonable terms. They don't get that many and if they rehomed them reasonably they would be out of business. There are plenty of good homes available. Saturated adult market? I don't think so. I have not seen any tortoise that was offered for free adoption not get multiple offers by willing and competent keepers. Will this be a future problem? I doubt it.



+2 So incredible true. It's hard to find an healthy full grown adult, even on the largest shows in Europe. I only saw a handful on the tables with the last shows I visited. It's incredible frustrating to see shelters with healthy adult animals that aren't cared for properly and hear these shelter claim in the media private keepers are 'unable' to care for these animals. 

Honestly you only need to look at the incredible amount of commercialization the hobby has been through the last decade to realize we're only the tip of the iceberg. I used to have to drive across the country to get to a decent store that sells lizards or tortoises. Now the nearest shop is 20 minutes away tops. Not to mention I can buy feeder insects in almost every pet store now. The hobby is getting more and more mainstream every day and supply will continue to rise with it, as it has done over the last decade. It's not necessary a bad thing, I enjoy the hobby very much and I hope more people will enjoy it too. But I'm a bit worried it'll push the hobby back rather then forward. More WC import for example or bad information from petshops.


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## BrianWI (Jul 19, 2016)

I agree, here the demand is high and we won't hit a bottleneck any time soon. They claim all these rescued sulcatas are around, but these "rescues" more often than not seem to be collectors. I am in the midwest and maybe that is different in CA or something.

I would also guess a HUGE number of hatchlings don't make it. Despite the knowledge of their care being better, the desire and reality of doing it are something else. Neglect probably really knocks the number down.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 19, 2016)

huff747 said:


> Never bred tortoises (and no plans to do so) so that just made me wonder, do those of you who do breed them have good demand? Does it take you a long time to move your babies?



Will and I have no trouble selling all the leopard tortoises we hatch out. 18 are up for sale at this time, and I predict they'll all be sold by this time next week.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 19, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> That's what I'm getting at. The breeders can sell as many as they breed.
> 
> In 50 years time, it will be the same demand for young tortoises.
> 
> However, the youngsters sold now will be fully mature by then and have humans needing to rehome them. They're 100lb Sulcatas, 7lb Greeks, etc and there will be an awful lot of them.



But, remember, many of those baby tortoises will never grow up. We see it every day here on the Forum. Dead and sick babies.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jul 19, 2016)

Tom said:


> Supply and demand.


Buy low, sell high. That's what is happening in the US to a great extent right now. ROI is better on two and three year old tortoises (purchased as neonates and grown well for a few years) than CD's or bonds or even the average stock.

I think if you look at British tortoise history, the laws reducing and prohibiting mass wild collected tortoise imports were backed with a range of statistics suggesting that a vast majority of those tortoises died due to winters there. I don't know if there are hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands, but I doubt there are even hundreds of these 40 year old survivalist tortoises there. Do you have any census to suggest otherwise?

Now the new trend is mass breeding and selling globally. Still most neonates won't exceed ten years or so. If they do they got great care, and those keepers often have a plan in place, or a legacy keeper. I'm mixing some US POV in this too.

In the US people lament sulcatas to the point where rescues won't place females with anyone showing an interest in breeding. Yet there are breeders here producing 1000's every year, many of which are sold into eastern Asian countries. There is and will continue to be attrition. 

The same could be said for many other pet types, both those that can naturalize and those that readily perish without captive care. On one hand it offers the chance to be engaged in wildlife by people who may not otherwise have that experience while on the other hand it can have the effect of cheapening life. 

I stopped breeding to sell in the late 90's because of these concerns. Now I would have considered to keep breeding and selling, as I have begun to do again. Entirely selfish reasons. I like doing it. If I could barter neonates for food and clothes I would, but then again pets to a great extent are in a commercial sense actually luxury items.

I would even more prefer to have been able to find a job where I do wildlife monitoring and census and observation. But even if I did find that job, well they pay sucks, and if you advance or gain upward mobility on that career path, you loose field time, not gain it.


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## JoesMum (Jul 19, 2016)

Will said:


> I don't know if there are hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands, but I doubt there are even hundreds of these 40 year old survivalist tortoises there. Do you have any census to suggest otherwise?


I know of around 15 older torts living within a 5 mile radius of here. There are undoubtedly more. Multiply that out and that's a lot of older torts in the UK. 

I asked a debatable question. I have no idea if there is a time-bomb and it's interesting to read others views; especially those in other countries.


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## Anyfoot (Jul 19, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> I know of around 15 older torts living within a 5 mile radius of here. There are undoubtedly more. Multiply that out and that's a lot of older torts in the UK.
> 
> I asked a debatable question. I have no idea if there is a time-bomb and it's interesting to read others views; especially those in other countries.


 Joe, are the 15 torts all the med species?


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## JoesMum (Jul 19, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> Joe, are the 15 torts all the med species?


Iberas and TGGs


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## mark1 (Jul 19, 2016)

I’ve raised and bred dogs for near 30yrs , I’m probably done , not because it’s hard to sell puppies . if you really don’t care what happens to them after you get rid of them they’re easy to sell ….. if you are intent on finding them lifelong homes where they will be properly cared for , that’s a whole different story ……… I throw away a dozen or so p. manni eggs every year , because I know 99.9% of the time what the future holds for a $40 turtle ………. Of the 350,000,000 people in the U.S. I think substantially less than 1% is capable or willing to care for a goldfish for it’s entire natural lifetime let alone something like a sulcata …… there is a reason you don’t see many adults , and i'm sure most realize what it is ………… you need to get on the world wide web to run across the small group of people you see on this message board , at least I do , and you still see folks on these message boards with exotic animals that can’t even imagine providing veterinary care for an animal that may have cost $100 let alone a $10 red eared slider ……. Where I’m from I know of no native species of reptile that needs their population reduced artificially by the collection of wild caught animals for the pet trade …….. from what I see , peoples respect for life is not on the increase , there is always going to be a market for disposable pets …….


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jul 19, 2016)

mark1 said:


> I’ve raised and bred dogs for near 30yrs , I’m probably done , not because it’s hard to sell puppies . if you really don’t care what happens to them after you get rid of them they’re easy to sell ….. if you are intent on finding them lifelong homes where they will be properly cared for , that’s a whole different story ……… I throw away a dozen or so p. manni eggs every year , because I know 99.9% of the time what the future holds for a $40 turtle ………. Of the 350,000,000 people in the U.S. I think substantially less than 1% is capable or willing to care for a goldfish for it’s entire natural lifetime let alone something like a sulcata …… there is a reason you don’t see many adults , and i'm sure most realize what it is ………… you need to get on the world wide web to run across the small group of people you see on this message board , at least I do , and you still see folks on these message boards with exotic animals that can’t even imagine providing veterinary care for an animal that may have cost $100 let alone a $10 red eared slider ……. Where I’m from I know of no native species of reptile that needs their population reduced artificially by the collection of wild caught animals for the pet trade …….. from what I see , peoples respect for life is not on the increase , there is always going to be a market for disposable pets …….



I totally agree with what you are saying. What I have come to realize is that I have absolutely no impact of their fate. Oddly goldfish may rival most turtles for an ability to grow old, so that's a bit cheeky a comparison. I often tell people Bearded Dragons are the best pet reptile you can get. When they ask why I refer to their relatively short life span. I always get an acknowledging smile, never once a scolding look. I think most people tend to be optimistic and rationalize that "it" will somehow work out. That one step further way off topic, is the competence of most people to parent. But that's another story.

I like these debatable topics when we are debating the topic and not each other, this is a really good thread.


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## BrianWI (Jul 19, 2016)

mark1 said:


> I’ve raised and bred dogs for near 30yrs , I’m probably done , not because it’s hard to sell puppies . if you really don’t care what happens to them after you get rid of them they’re easy to sell ….. if you are intent on finding them lifelong homes where they will be properly cared for , that’s a whole different story ……… I throw away a dozen or so p. manni eggs every year , because I know 99.9% of the time what the future holds for a $40 turtle ………. Of the 350,000,000 people in the U.S. I think substantially less than 1% is capable or willing to care for a goldfish for it’s entire natural lifetime let alone something like a sulcata …… there is a reason you don’t see many adults , and i'm sure most realize what it is ………… you need to get on the world wide web to run across the small group of people you see on this message board , at least I do , and you still see folks on these message boards with exotic animals that can’t even imagine providing veterinary care for an animal that may have cost $100 let alone a $10 red eared slider ……. Where I’m from I know of no native species of reptile that needs their population reduced artificially by the collection of wild caught animals for the pet trade …….. from what I see , peoples respect for life is not on the increase , there is always going to be a market for disposable pets …….



I never could breed animals for sale at any large scale. I have bred animals, even sold a few, but generally it was to other breeders, not the public. Even then, I was often disappointed by the outcome. Now, I am not saying people who do sell don't care, they probably do. They just are more capable of handling those difficult situations. I fail at that.


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## Rue (Jul 19, 2016)

I advocate getting rats as a pet for kids or for new time pet owners. Amazing animals. Smart, engaging, affectionate. Large enough to handle comfortably. Easy to look after. Cheap to look after. (I have developed allergies, no more rats for me, which is too bad.).

AND...what is another bonus...actually IS their short lifespan. They don't outlive their welcome, so to speak. At 2-4 years they die of old age (if they are healthy) before their owner gets tired of them.

I always read about people who mourn their dogs, saying that they don't live long enough...even if the dog makes it to 14-16 years. Well, sad as it is...a lot of people dump their senior dogs long before they are actually an issue (with old-age problems). What does that really tell you (about people in general)?

And I'm not a person who will drag out the life of animal until the bitter end either. I'm a proponent of quality of life. As long as the animal is happy, I am happy to put in a little extra work when possible.

I have several senior pets coming to the end (a cat, a dog and a horse). It's really hard - if I let myself get all mooshy about it, I'll have a good cry; but it just is. You have to balance sympathy with pragmaticism.

I also have my parrots, and now the tortoise. All of which have the potential to outlive me...so that's another concern. No seniors condo for me (er, when the time comes)...unless they welcome my menagerie!


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## BrianWI (Jul 19, 2016)

Rue said:


> I advocate getting rats as a pet for kids or for new time pet owners. Amazing animals. Smart, engaging, affectionate. Large enough to handle comfortably. Easy to look after. Cheap to look after. (I have developed allergies, no more rats for me, which is too bad.).
> 
> AND...what is another bonus...actually IS their short lifespan. They don't outlive their welcome, so to speak. At 2-4 years they die of old age (if they are healthy) before their owner gets tired of them.
> 
> ...


As I mentioned in another post, I LOVE rats. But yes, with any pet, lifespan (long or short) is a major consideration.

As for "extra" torts, how many here have collections of discarded torts but ARE NOT rescues with adoptions going on?


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## TerrapinStation (Aug 2, 2016)

Very interesting thread. 
There was just an article on Buzzfeed (https://www.buzzfeed.com/catferguson/a-reptile-dysfunction?utm_term=.wkEpa9WxY#.rbAxyQd5r) about the abundance and proliferation of Sulcata tortoise around the US in the last 15 or so years. 
American culture is notoriously "disposable" when it comes to hobbies and pets, especially when trends or fads dictate the consumer spending. It will be interesting to see how many of these animals survive to adulthood, and if they are released in to the wild, how they survive/thrive there.


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## mproko (Aug 5, 2016)

Kind of apples to oranges here but I was checking reptile rescues near me. I am in upstate New York. Many of them have a sign or note posted on their site they won't even respond to big iguanas or red ears. I too agree the sulcutta is the best example of the problem with its size and viability. So far I've rescued a turtle and tortoise. 

I think part of the appeal of raising them from hatchling size is I get to actively control their health. Not get a pyramided mess, or a finicky eater. My hatchling hermanns eat everything they are supposed to cause I've actively made sure of it. 

I'm going to attempt to breed Russians. Have a male and 2 females. I can see both sides of this argument. My main justification is that we are still capturing animals for the pet trade. I think the lesser of the evils is to have an oversupply of captive bred then deplete all the native habitats. I also feel the Russians size is and small clutch by sulcutta comparisons make them more responsible as pets. 

The local zoo near me has a sulcutta, 2 redfoots, a wood turtle, some read ears and painteds. I've always figured late in life I'd leave the zoo or a rescue a trust if I was unable to find another suitable keeper. I'm only 29 now so no worries yet.


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## Tom (Aug 5, 2016)

Will said:


> ROI is better on two and three year old tortoises (purchased as neonates and grown well for a few years) than CD's or bonds or even the average stock.



How are you calculating this? What species are you referring to?

This is certainly not the case with Sulcatas, leopards or russians.


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## Tom (Aug 5, 2016)

mproko said:


> I'm going to attempt to breed Russians. Have a male and 2 females. I can see both sides of this argument. My main justification is that we are still capturing animals for the pet trade. I think the lesser of the evils is to have an oversupply of captive bred then deplete all the native habitats. I also feel the Russians size is and small clutch by sulcutta comparisons make them more responsible as pets.



I encourage everyone to breed their russians. I'd like to see a day when the demand for the pet trade can be met by private breeding and _voluntarily _ stop importing because we just don't need them anymore.

I agree with your reasoning for wanting to raise a baby.

I would not count on a zoo to take your tortoises. They usually don't want anyone's surplus animals.

Hello and welcome to the forum.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 5, 2016)

Most zoos are governed by the AZA, and are unable to buy or accept donations of animals from the general public.


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## mproko (Aug 5, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> Most zoos are governed by the AZA, and are unable to buy or accept donations of animals from the general public.


Worst case 40-50 years from now I try to find a young person to take over for me when I meet my end. Only reason I posted this part at all is that I wanted to at least acknowledge that I considered that these animals will outlive me before purchasing them. Kind of the theme of the thread responsibility.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 6, 2016)

Tom said:


> How are you calculating this? What species are you referring to?
> 
> This is certainly not the case with Sulcatas, leopards or russians.


 ROI is a pretty simple concept. If you put ten dollar into a system, it is the measure of how long it will take to get that ten dollars back. It can also be looked at in another way, real estate people use the one term to mean a few things. If I put ten dollars into a system, how much return does that system provide each year? That answer can come as $ or a %.

For a solar installation as one example, if the system costs $30,000 and our utility bill goes from $200/month to zero then the ROI is 150 months or 12 and a half years. Thereafter the utility bill continues to be zero and the cost of the solar is now gone, so at that point the ROI calculation changes. There can be other factors brought in that make the ROI more specific, like opportunity cost of the capital outlay, most simply balanced as the 'time value' of money, or whatever the simple interest rate is at the time, or more complicated as in "had you built a spare room on your house" could you have made more money on a monthly basis renting that room out. In both cases property tax will go up, and they both bring compromises to your home some aesthetic, some practical.

So now that YOU KNOW I KNOW how complicated this can all be I'll use a turtle example and then NOT answer your further questions about vet bills, cost of food blah blah blah.

Say you already have a turtle room or outdoor place. So like a house the initial capital costs is not going to be put into the calculation.

You buy three 'perfect' Burmese Star tortoises on day one of year one. You raise then 'the right way' with optimal conditions and you have three four to six inch tortoises one year later. That initial cost was say $900 to $1,200 each (both prices on Fauna right now). Right now also on fauna are three year hold backs ( I bet I could grow them smooth that big in one year) selling for $2000 plus. But let's keep it at three years for our ROI.

$1200 out at day one, $2000 back in at day 365 of year three (four years), That is $200 return a year on your initial cost, or about 25%(per year). 25% ROI and you can get short fingers and run for president. Well the tortoise took care, say I figure about $1.00/week as the marginal costs to care for them. Marginal cost refers to the added extra amount to the whole of my operation that is already up and running. That $1.00 a week is for all three. 

So for all 3 that was $3600 out, and $6,000 back, less $208 (that $1.00/week) yields $2,192.00 or 60% over the four years. Now you can be a global banker.

And no damn kidding there are risks. Also and no damn kidding I was not talking about sulcatas or leos or russians.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 6, 2016)

Will said:


> Buy low, sell high. That's what is happening in the US to a great extent right now.



~ That is spot on!


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## Kristoff (Aug 7, 2016)

Here's the other side of the coin coming from one of the natural habitats of the Greeks. Here in Turkey urban "development" grows like cancer. It seems even the most feeble credit line means you're entitled to an apartment, a car and a summer house. The summer houses are usually built in areas where torts (and other animals) used to roam. And then there are forest fires, all too common because somebody had been burning trash or simply had forgotten about their barbecue. Testudo populations are declining. Makes me wonder if breeding in captivity - in the right conditions - could provide a solution some day.


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## mproko (Aug 7, 2016)

Kristoff said:


> Here's the other side of the coin coming from one of the natural habitats of the Greeks. Here in Turkey urban "development" grows like cancer. It seems even the most feeble credit line means you're entitled to an apartment, a car and a summer house. The summer houses are usually built in areas where torts (and other animals) used to roam. And then there are forest fires, all too common because somebody had been burning trash or simply had forgotten about their barbecue. Testudo populations are declining. Makes me wonder if breeding in captivity - in the right conditions - could provide a solution some day.



The credit line in your point reminds me of America. I always thought it was only my country that lived like that. But more on point, it's really sad to see all the habitat destruction taking place everywhere. I don't know if I was just oblivious as a kid, but every time I go to the zoo I can't help but read how most of the species are threatened endangered or extinct in the wild. It seems we are overpopulating the planet at the expense of biodiversity. When someone mentions they think zoos are cruel and animals shouldn't be in cages, I remind them of habitat destruction in the wild. I think 50 years or so from now a lot of the animals we took for granted will be extinct in the wild.


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## Tom (Aug 7, 2016)

mproko said:


> ...but every time I go to the zoo I can't help but read how most of the species are threatened endangered or extinct in the wild. It seems we are overpopulating the planet at the expense of biodiversity.



The zoos are WAYYYYYYYY over selling some of this. Some how the commies and socialists over here are winning the cultural war with their politically correct ideas and speech. Over time it has somehow become socially unacceptable and/or politically incorrect to keep animals in captivity purely for human enjoyment. Never mind how well they are cared for or what their plight would be in the wild. You are some sort of evil villain if you capture a "wild" animal and put it in a cage. Zoos have decided to bend to animal rightist pressure and so every species in the zoo is now part of some sort of global animal catastrophe and they _ONLY_ way to save them is if that zoo keeps them there in captivity and does what it is doing. See; amassing some really cool animals, putting them on display in really well designed naturalistic large enclosures and charging admission to see them has somehow become taboo/evil/a plot of the capitalist Christian white male, etc.... But amassing the same really cool collection of animals, housing them in the same large well designed naturalistic enclosures and charging admission to see them is _PERFECTLY_ fine if the zoo crams a conservation message down your throat all day and every enclosures explains how dire the situation for every species is all over the world. See; you are "supposed" to feel guilty about going to the zoo to see some rally cool animals that you can't see anywhere else, because evil humans are causing "Global Warming" (…oh wait, I'm sorry, they admitted that was a total fraud and re-named the same concept as "Climate Change") and destroying the entire planet.



Kristoff said:


> Makes me wonder if breeding in captivity - in the right conditions - could provide a solution some day.



You don't have to wonder. Captive breeding _IS_ saving several species from extinction right now. In reference to "the right conditions": Private breeders generally have much more success than any zoo or "institution", but yet the government, AZA, and animal rights groups do a fantastic job of preventing private breeders from working their magic in many cases. We have reached a crossroads similar to what we have seen several times in the past in human history. It is damn scary to me to sit, watch and wonder which way all of this is going to go this time. "They" have lost every time in the past, but they have been patient and learned lessons from each defeat.


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## mproko (Aug 7, 2016)

this is a reply to tom moreso than the rest. I didn't want to quote it all and clog up this further. I'll agree that zoos must promote conservation as a means to escape persecution/provide justification of self. Decades ago they thought we were heading to a new ice age in regards to global warming so I'll agree it's without merit. My point was to bring up that habitat destruction is destroying too many species. I can think of a couple turtles currently underpopulated cause too many people are eating them or their eggs. I think we as humans need to find a better balance before we loose more biodiversity. I'm not getting into the politics of commies or socialists winning. I'm merely looking at my hometown where a giant all brick hospital sits vacant, but they break new ground elsewhere for more medical offices etc. Regardless of viewpoints on political associations, I'd rather see them remodel that hospital or raze and build what's needed there, not keep changing woodlands and forests into more buildings while others sit vacant.


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## Tom (Aug 7, 2016)

mproko said:


> this is a reply to tom moreso than the rest. I didn't want to quote it all and clog up this further. I'll agree that zoos must promote conservation as a means to escape persecution/provide justification of self. Decades ago they thought we were heading to a new ice age in regards to global warming so I'll agree it's without merit. My point was to bring up that habitat destruction is destroying too many species. I can think of a couple turtles currently underpopulated cause too many people are eating them or their eggs. I think we as humans need to find a better balance before we loose more biodiversity. I'm not getting into the politics of commies or socialists winning. I'm merely looking at my hometown where a giant all brick hospital sits vacant, but they break new ground elsewhere for more medical offices etc. Regardless of viewpoints on political associations, I'd rather see them remodel that hospital or raze and build what's needed there, not keep changing woodlands and forests into more buildings while others sit vacant.



No argument that we as a species need to tread more lightly in some cases, and that we've done damage in the past. I'm just making the point that the global situation is not as dire as some people would like us to believe it is.


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## BrianWI (Aug 7, 2016)

http://www.worldpopulationbalance.org/3_times_sustainable


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## BrianWI (Aug 7, 2016)

Breeding...
http://www.tortoise.com/id47.html


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## dmmj (Aug 7, 2016)

mark1 said:


> I’ve raised and bred dogs for near 30yrs , I’m probably done , not because it’s hard to sell puppies . if you really don’t care what happens to them after you get rid of them they’re easy to sell ….. if you are intent on finding them lifelong homes where they will be properly cared for , that’s a whole different story ……… I throw away a dozen or so p. manni eggs every year , because I know 99.9% of the time what the future holds for a $40 turtle ………. Of the 350,000,000 people in the U.S. I think substantially less than 1% is capable or willing to care for a goldfish for it’s entire natural lifetime let alone something like a sulcata …… there is a reason you don’t see many adults , and i'm sure most realize what it is ………… you need to get on the world wide web to run across the small group of people you see on this message board , at least I do , and you still see folks on these message boards with exotic animals that can’t even imagine providing veterinary care for an animal that may have cost $100 let alone a $10 red eared slider ……. Where I’m from I know of no native species of reptile that needs their population reduced artificially by the collection of wild caught animals for the pet trade …….. from what I see , peoples respect for life is not on the increase , there is always going to be a market for disposable pets …….


Funny you should mention that I had a goldfish live for 14 years that I won from the fair it was not expected to live more than a few days 14 years later I finally died in a nice big Aquarium


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## leigti (Aug 8, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> But, remember, many of those baby tortoises will never grow up. We see it every day here on the Forum. Dead and sick babies.



I've always heard this when the argument comes up on whether tortoises are being overbred Does it bother anybody else that it is just a given that most of the babies will never make it to adulthood? I guess both sides could use that as their argument, but it's very sad.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Aug 8, 2016)

leigti said:


> Does it bother anybody else that it is just a given that most of the babies will never make it to adulthood? it's very sad.


Very sad indeed. Part of the reason I've no interest in producing sulcata any longer. I'm very picky regarding who the hatchlings would go to. Then the flip side of russians collected in the wild, I feel we must consider those collecting for the money that it provides them to help feed their families in a "legal" to them manner.


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## leigti (Aug 8, 2016)

Cowboy_Ken said:


> Very sad indeed. Part of the reason I've no interest in producing sulcata any longer. I'm very picky regarding who the hatchlings would go to. Then the flip side of russians collected in the wild, I feel we must consider those collecting for the money that it provides them to help feed their families in a "legal" to them manner.


I really don't know much about how Russians are collected in the wild. I would always prefer captive breeding to taking animals out of the wild.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 9, 2016)

Will said:


> ROI is a pretty simple concept. If you put ten dollar into a system, it is the measure of how long it will take to get that ten dollars back. It can also be looked at in another way, real estate people use the one term to mean a few things. If I put ten dollars into a system, how much return does that system provide each year? That answer can come as $ or a %.
> 
> For a solar installation as one example, if the system costs $30,000 and our utility bill goes from $200/month to zero then the ROI is 150 months or 12 and a half years. Thereafter the utility bill continues to be zero and the cost of the solar is now gone, so at that point the ROI calculation changes. There can be other factors brought in that make the ROI more specific, like opportunity cost of the capital outlay, most simply balanced as the 'time value' of money, or whatever the simple interest rate is at the time, or more complicated as in "had you built a spare room on your house" could you have made more money on a monthly basis renting that room out. In both cases property tax will go up, and they both bring compromises to your home some aesthetic, some practical.
> 
> ...




Almost on que...
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=586568


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## Tom (Aug 9, 2016)

Will said:


> Almost on que...
> http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=586568



So if he bought the babies for $1200 each, spent 3 years raising them and is now selling them for $1500 each, his ROI is $100 per year per tortoise.

I don't consider that all that good. Daily soaks, daily food growing and garden tending, daily food collection and dispension, food bowl cleaning, daily water bowl cleaning and refilling, daily cage spot cleaning, the electric bill, bulb replacements, soaking tubs, substrate, and the biggest expenditure of all: your time. That's 365 days of care for $100 per tortoise. I can't pay my bills at that rate.

It seems to me, all things considered, this seller is taking a big loss, unless he got these super cheap as babies from a friend. The buyer, in this case, will make out like a bandit though. What a HUGE bargain! If I needed more, I would seriously consider this deal. You get a three year head start for a pittance.


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## Neal (Aug 9, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> So are we, as a human race, creating a time bomb by continuing to breed (and import) these animals at pets?
> 
> Will we, or are we getting, to a point where we have an unsustainable number of larger older animals that need solitary outdoor space in captivity?
> 
> Over to you?



This is a good debate and good discussion. As a breeder, I can appreciate being challenged on my contributions to the hobby because it causes me to pause and remember why I continue to do what I do.

I can only guess, but perhaps the time will come in the US where there will be more tortoises than homes. Maybe not in the near future, but I think it's a valid concern. I personally don't think the best answer is to put pressure on breeders to reduce their numbers. That will never work realistically for a lot of reasons already discussed (supply & demand, ROI incentive, etc...). 

I think a better solution is to increase the number of homes capable of housing tortoises. Educating people, especially young people, and getting them interested in having caring for a tortoise would be the means to ensure the sustainability of future captive populations. That is where I have spent a lot of my time and efforts lately. Volunteering at my daughters schools, working with the youth at my church and just trying to take advantage of any opportunity that may come up. We left for vacation a couple weeks ago and I asked a friend to help with the tortoises while we were gone. He brought over his 12 year old son who is now hooked and will be getting his own very soon.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 9, 2016)

Tom said:


> So if he bought the babies for $1200 each, spent 3 years raising them and is now selling them for $1500 each, his ROI is $100 per year per tortoise.
> 
> I don't consider that all that good. Daily soaks, daily food growing and garden tending, daily food collection and dispension, food bowl cleaning, daily water bowl cleaning and refilling, daily cage spot cleaning, the electric bill, bulb replacements, soaking tubs, substrate, and the biggest expenditure of all: your time. That's 365 days of care for $100 per tortoise. I can't pay my bills at that rate.
> 
> It seems to me, all things considered, this seller is taking a big loss, unless he got these super cheap as babies from a friend. The buyer, in this case, will make out like a bandit though. What a HUGE bargain! If I needed more, I would seriously consider this deal. You get a three year head start for a pittance.



You are misquoting my numbers and have ignored economies of scale. And I would use the cold and dry method like you recommend .


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 9, 2016)

Neal said:


> I think a better solution is to increase the number of homes capable of housing tortoises. Educating people, especially young people, and getting them interested in having caring for a tortoise would be the means to ensure the sustainability of future captive populations. That is where I have spent a lot of my time and efforts lately. Volunteering at my daughters schools, working with the youth at my church and just trying to take advantage of any opportunity that may come up. We left for vacation a couple weeks ago and I asked a friend to help with the tortoises while we were gone. He brought over his 12 year old son who is now hooked and will be getting his own very soon.



BEST ANSWER ever Neal.


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## Tom (Aug 9, 2016)

Will said:


> You are misquoting my numbers and have ignored economies of scale. And I would use the cold and dry method like you recommend .



I didn't quote your numbers. I used the numbers from the ad you linked.

What does economy of scale have to do with this? So if I raised 100 tortoises for three years, I'd get more money? But I'd also get 100 times the work and expenses…

No horseplay Mister Man. This is a serious discussion!!!


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## BrianWI (Aug 9, 2016)

Tom said:


> What does economy of scale have to do with this? So if I raised 100 tortoises for three years, I'd get more money? But I'd also get 100 times the work and expenses…



No, you wouldn't. That is what economy of scale means. Food is cheaper in quantity, work in bulk can be streamlined. A little automation. Business 101.


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## Tom (Aug 9, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> No, you wouldn't. That is what economy of scale means. Food is cheaper in quantity, work in bulk can be streamlined. A little automation. Business 101.



Food is not cheaper in quantity if you are not buying food. I grow my own food. Therefore the time it takes to tend the crops and collect the food simply increases per tortoise.

I know all about business. Why don't you just leave me alone before we both get into trouble. You don't care what I have to say and I don't care what you have to say, so how about you quit trying to engage someone who would rather not deal with you?


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## BrianWI (Aug 9, 2016)

Tom said:


> Food is not cheaper in quantity if you are not buying food. I grow my own food. Therefore the time it takes to tend the crops and collect the food simply increases per tortoise.


Then you aren't doing it right. Better tools, better methods, anything done in volume should be way cheaper.


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## leigti (Aug 9, 2016)

Time is money.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 10, 2016)

Time is a tool for measuring all things against. One bar in most graphs is time. Money has time value, but money is not time, nor is time money.

If I told you I made a $1,000,000.00 it would be meaningless as it could be my life time earning or the past year. Same amount of $$ but one of those millions is bigger than the other, in a POV, that I don't share but is very common.

Tom if you use a 5 gallon bucket to collect weeds for your tortoises and you only fill half way, the whole cost of the buckets is measured against half of its use. Fill it all the way and now the whole cost of the bucket is the same, but measured against what the bucket can do, resource carried by the bucket, cost half as much, based only on the cost of the bucket. I would bet that it might take you say 8 minutes to fill the bucket half way, and maybe ten minutes to fill it all the way. People who measure factory workers do this kind of analytic and seek the best marginal use of any one resource against another.

For me, if my garage is insulated for any tortoises at all, and heated and cooled for those tortoise. That is a fixed cost. I can keep adding tortoises to the garage to some extent without needing more heating or cooling or insulation. Those marginal tortoises (the few more) do not add to the fixed cost of the garage as a facility. Now that I have solar, the cost to heat and cool went down and will be returned in about 5 years. If I add more enclosures the marginal enclosure cost is substrate and an actual light, and perhaps the enclosure itself. When I buy one bag of substrate is costs $30/bag, when I buy a pallet is costs $12 per bag. Cost "per" goes down. That is economies to scale.

I have a pretty reasonable grasp of both micro and macro economics, frankly the principles are very near those most used in ecology. When I was in many ecology courses I found the names of the principles in both disciplines are often the same as well. I have an unrecognized/diploma-ed graduate education in economics.

"Allocation of scarce resources over competing ends" is the one sentence summation in both economics and ecology. All resources are scarce in varying situations and conditions.


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## BrianWI (Aug 10, 2016)

Will said:


> Time is a tool for measuring all things against. One bar in most graphs is time. Money has time value, but money is not time, nor is time money.
> 
> If I told you I made a $1,000,000.00 it would be meaningless as it could be my life time earning or the past year. Same amount of $$ but one of those millions is bigger than the other, in a POV, that I don't share but is very common.
> 
> ...


Very good explanation w/ specifics for the topic at hand.


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## leigti (Aug 10, 2016)

leigti said:


> Time is money.


I was just putting in a little smart Alec statement because of all the bickering back and forth. For some people time is worth more than money and for others money is worth more than time.


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## Tom (Aug 10, 2016)

Will said:


> Time is a tool for measuring all things against. One bar in most graphs is time. Money has time value, but money is not time, nor is time money.
> 
> If I told you I made a $1,000,000.00 it would be meaningless as it could be my life time earning or the past year. Same amount of $$ but one of those millions is bigger than the other, in a POV, that I don't share but is very common.
> 
> ...



Yes Will, I understand these concepts, but the reality in regards to tortoise keeping does not line up with the theories you propose. Perhaps if someone were doing this "factory" style these concepts could apply, but for someone like me, they don't. I think quality would suffer if I were to use "mass production" techniques.

My bucket takes about 15 minutes to fill up. It takes 7.5 minutes to fill it halfway. I don't know where you've derived your numbers from. Are you counting the 20 seconds that it takes to walk to the barn to get the bucket and scissors? Why would the second half of the bucket take a quarter of the time to fill up? The second half of my bucket takes the same amount of time to fill up as the first half. What am I missing? Where did you shave off 3/4 of the bucket filling time to do the second half?

I get the part about no additional cost for heating a room that is already heated, but each enclosure in that room still needs a basking lamp and all the other amenities. When the tortoises get large enough to stay outside, each group will need shelters and heated night boxes. You would have to spread out the babies as they gain size, so more resources and supplies would be needed even if your garage was already heated.

Not trying to be argumentative, but your examples don't hold water. I buy substrate for $12 a bag right now whether I get one bag or 10 pallets. The cost per bag is the same. I've already asked about volume discounts, and I've had no luck trying to go around the retailer and buy direct either.

Certainly in some industries and for some supplies purchasing in bulk quantities is a way to keep costs down, but I don't see that happening for a small time tortoise farmer. Water dishes and lumber are already at rock bottom prices. I tried to order a full truck load of slumpstone block (14 pallets) to save money and I could not get the price per block any cheaper than buying a single block at Home Depot. I called several contractor friends, landscape supply places, construction supply places, and no one could sell me the block cheaper than HD in any quantity. Not with a resale license, not with any sort of volume discount, and not with any "bro" deals.

I could build my boxes cheaper, but I don't think they'd be as efficient at holding heat in, so I'm not sure I would save money over time.

In my case, I'm doing things in bulk already, and saving money where it can be saved. I don't think my cost per tortoise would be cheaper with 100 tortoises vs. 10. So that takes me back to a reward of $300 per tortoise for 3 full years of my time, based on the link. At that rate, I'd have to raise and sell 1000 high end tortoises each year to make a living. I don't think there is enough time in a day for me to do what I do for 1000 tortoises every day, seven days a week, 365 days a year.

All of this takes me back to disagreeing with your initial premise of:


Will said:


> Buy low, sell high. That's what is happening in the US to a great extent right now. ROI is better on two and three year old tortoises (purchased as neonates and grown well for a few years) than CD's or bonds or even the average stock.



From where I'm sitting and the way I do things, my ROI is not better with tortoises than CD's bonds or an average stock. How is that for debating the topic?


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## jaizei (Aug 10, 2016)

Tom said:


> Yes Will, I understand these concepts, but the reality in regards to tortoise keeping does not line up with the theories you propose. Perhaps if someone were doing this "factory" style these concepts could apply, but for someone like me, they don't. I think quality would suffer if I were to use "mass production" techniques.
> 
> My bucket takes about 15 minutes to fill up. It takes 7.5 minutes to fill it halfway. I don't know where you've derived your numbers from. Are you counting the 20 seconds that it takes to walk to the barn to get the bucket and scissors? Why would the second half of the bucket take a quarter of the time to fill up? The second half of my bucket takes the same amount of time to fill up as the first half. What am I missing? Where did you shave off 3/4 of the bucket filling time to do the second half?
> 
> ...



Do you have accounts set up at Home Depot and the landscape or construction supplier?


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## Tom (Aug 10, 2016)

jaizei said:


> Do you have accounts set up at Home Depot and the landscape or construction supplier?



No, but I asked if I could set something up and become a regular customer, and they said no. The HD price is the same with or without an account. The only discount I could get was with a military ID. My contractor friends and family members do have accounts, and long standing business relationships with their suppliers, and their prices came back higher than HD. When pressed for an explanation, they said HD does so much volume that they get a better price break.


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## jaizei (Aug 11, 2016)

Tom said:


> No, but I asked if I could set something up and become a regular customer, and they said no. The HD price is the same with or without an account. The only discount I could get was with a military ID. My contractor friends and family members do have accounts, and long standing business relationships with their suppliers, and their prices came back higher than HD. When pressed for an explanation, they said HD does so much volume that they get a better price break.



HD (or Lowes) can be extremely competitive on 'residential' building supplies so I could believe that. An account may not be "required" - I think you'd end up getting signed up before it's all finished regardless - but I think it opens other options up. You may have to get a quote from them to get the volume pricing, and it'd have to meet a threshold. I'd try to create the largest possible order you can and get pricing from both, along with other suppliers.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 11, 2016)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheaper_by_the_Dozen


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## BrianWI (Aug 11, 2016)

Will said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheaper_by_the_Dozen


Will,

Some people have no business sense. If they did, they'd be writing off their turtle-based expenses


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## Yvonne G (Aug 11, 2016)

When I asked my tax preparer if I could deduct any of the $$ spent on my tortoise hobby, I was told I could not.


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## jaizei (Aug 11, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> When I asked my tax preparer if I could deduct any of the $$ spent on my tortoise hobby, I was told I could not.



You can deduct an amount equal to any income from the hobby. Can't take a loss.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 11, 2016)

Aw, I see..."*income* from the hobby"...what's that?


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## BrianWI (Aug 11, 2016)

jaizei said:


> You can deduct an amount equal to any income from the hobby. Can't take a loss.


Actually, you get bupkiss if the IRS finds your business to simply be a hobby. But, if you are a legitimate business selling tortoises, supplies, etc., you can certainly take a loss in any given year.


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## wellington (Aug 11, 2016)

Actually, I claimed my dog breeding/showing, as a business years ago. Didn't sell anything except dogs. Was able to deduct portions of anything dog or dog showing and breeding related and portions of my home, utilities bills, car and gas. Yes, on the business alone, was able to show a loss every year. A percentage of my actual expenses, not all of the actual expenses. Laws may have changed since then. Most likely tighter!


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## jaizei (Aug 11, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> Actually, you get bupkiss if the IRS finds your business to simply be a hobby. But, if you are a legitimate business selling tortoises, supplies, etc., you can certainly take a loss in any given year.



Prob don't want to start the 'difference between business and hobby debate'.  I think there's a fair number of breeders that try to squeeze in under hobbyist exemption to the 4" rule that also consider themselves a business for tax purposes.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 11, 2016)

"I have accountants pay for it all" Joe Walsh. I have a business sellers permit, which is given oversight by the franchise tax board. My costs always exceed my income by design. The CPA I use sorts the details out. No body and I mean no body is a tax code expert. If you use TurboTax and stay in the green it means you erred so far to the benefit of the IRS nobody will audit you. I use a CPA and for not so much more I get much better accounting relative to what Turbo Tax shows as my return. I have done this two times now, compared a Turbo Tax estimated return and the CPA. A reputable CPA is worth it. They work for you, not the IRS, and good CPA's are not so easy to find IMO, I got lucky.


Yvonne we all know you are a tortoise millionaire, and want to keep a low profile. Opps, secrets out now. My bad. hahahahahhahahahahahhhahahahah


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 11, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> Will,
> 
> Some people have no business sense. If they did, they'd be writing off their turtle-based expenses




Many people have businesses that are not productivity based in a traditional resource use sense, and they are very successful. Most that come to mind are entertainment and amusement businesses. It's more timing and popularity in that case, neither of which I have any. Artists of many manners fit this too.

Tiger Woods comes to mind, it was both his skill as a sportsman and his name that got him many sponsors, and all that went away when he got caught fooling around. Crushed his spirit and took away his sponsors. 

This is a bit apples and oranges. The point being understanding business is somewhat different than being good at it. My Dad ran a business for his whole life, never failed, never grew past a point, His craftsmanship is impeccable, not his business savvy.


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## BrianWI (Aug 11, 2016)

jaizei said:


> Prob don't want to start the 'difference between business and hobby debate'.  I think there's a fair number of breeders that try to squeeze in under hobbyist exemption to the 4" rule that also consider themselves a business for tax purposes.


That debate gets hairy when it is with an IRS agent.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 11, 2016)

wellington said:


> Actually, I claimed my dog breeding/showing, as a business years ago. Didn't sell anything except dogs. Was able to deduct portions of anything dog or dog showing and breeding related and portions of my home, utilities bills, car and gas. Yes, on the business alone, was able to show a loss every year. A percentage of my actual expenses, not all of the actual expenses. Laws may have changed since then. Most likely tighter!



I also claimed the $$ spent on my horse breeding operation (Mighty small operation, but had high hopes). This was years ago...over 30. At that time, I was able to show a loss for only 5 years. After that it would be deemed a hobby and no longer deductible.

We seem to have gotten pretty far afield and off track from the time bomb premise of this thread. I think it's time we got back on track.


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## Big Charlie (Aug 11, 2016)

Will said:


> "I have accountants pay for it all" Joe Walsh. I have a business sellers permit, which is given oversight by the franchise tax board. My costs always exceed my income by design. The CPA I use sorts the details out. No body and I mean no body is a tax code expert. If you use TurboTax and stay in the green it means you erred so far to the benefit of the IRS nobody will audit you. I use a CPA and for not so much more I get much better accounting relative to what Turbo Tax shows as my return. I have done this two times now, compared a Turbo Tax estimated return and the CPA. A reputable CPA is worth it. They work for you, not the IRS, and good CPA's are not so easy to find IMO, I got lucky.
> 
> 
> Yvonne we all know you are a tortoise millionaire, and want to keep a low profile. Opps, secrets out now. My bad. hahahahahhahahahahahhhahahahah


Not my experience at all. We had accountants for years. Then one year, I got turbotax free and decided to do it for fun and compare it to the CPA-prepared return. I discovered my CPA had made 3 mistakes, costing us about $1300. I've done our own returns ever since, complete with small business income, investment income, capital gains, and itemized deductions.


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## Kasia (Aug 31, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> We can't sell the 'beautiful old' torts here. They're pre CITES with no papers and being kept legally.


In Poland per- Cites animals can be registered as found if you confirm what type of species are they at the Vets office. In UK found ones probably can be registered as well. I assume that they can not be sold or taken out of the country but given out for free to a neighbor I think yes. Tortoise are quite expensive in my country alderly or not. In most cases per- cites ones will have a much shorter lifespan due owners lack of knowledge and improper care. Concluding in my opinion there will be no problem ...


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## Vanessa Schnautz (Nov 28, 2016)

Getting back to the original question... I don't think it is creating a time bomb. If it were, we would already be there. Not all hatchlings survive once they get to their new owners. Between malnutrition, poor general care, accidents, escapees, predators, and so forth, many pets die. Those that don't, end up in rescues, or with family/friends once the owners pass on, or the kids get disinterested. I think that breeding ANY type of pet animal, ends up supporting rescues. Think of how many cats, dogs, reptiles, cockatiels, parakeets, large parrrots, rabbits, you name it, end up in rescues/humane societies. I don't like breeding pugs, because they have genetic issues. I don't like breeding lop rabbits, like one of my four little cuties (rescue bunny), because their head structure causes dental problems that result in pain, ulcers, and interference with their eating. They get ear infections, and are prone to blindness. The list goes on for various pedigree animals. Pets for kits - any type of pet - is more prone to ending up surrendered. Large parrots that live over 50 years are int he same boat as sulcatas. So I think there are problems everywhere int he pet trade, but none that will come to hit us as a time bomb. Nothign is new under the sun. We have had these same pet issues for a long time now. 
For those reasons, I won't get a baby animal that lives longer than 50 years. I woudl rather rescue an adult animal, so I dont' end up with a pet that outlives me.


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## Big Ol Tortoise (Nov 28, 2016)

*looks at sulcatas* It's quite sad how people breed these animals in hundreds or even thousands. Just for money. Sulcatas don't need to bread anymore. Same with other tort. (Or at least just not as much)


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## Cowboy_Ken (Nov 30, 2016)

Big Ol Tortoise said:


> *looks at sulcatas* It's quite sad how people breed these animals in hundreds or even thousands. Just for money. Sulcatas don't need to bread anymore.


 My feelings exactly. I bred my sulcata 1 time for the experience. After that I stopped. Not so much for the,"future time-bomb" effect that I might contribute to, but more for my heart. I care for these little critters, and it became hard for me to just sell them to someone that wanted "bigger than the Russian they got at Petsmart." Make sense? I was attached to these little guys and was kind of a hard a** about the home they'd end up in. Pyramids are not normal and all of that.


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## Vanessa Schnautz (Nov 30, 2016)

Yeah... My cockatiels have been producing babies... I got to where I swap out their eggs for dummy eggs, because it is difficult vetting out new owners. Cockatiels are such social creatures, I don't want them being cage birds, and not getting enough attention. They can't compete with a dog for attention. My turaco also bred (larger fruit eating birds), and I turned down 2 potential buyers before going with the third. You just never know how the animal will end up being cared for. Not criticizing breeders - I just found it too difficult on my heart. I'm still ok with breeding finches, because they have a short lifespan, and don't require social interaction with their owner. Typically - anyone interested in a Lady Gouldian Finch - knows what they are doing.


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## mike taylor (Nov 30, 2016)

I look at it like this . The sulcata in its home rang is hurting . Here in America it's numbers are great . So this tortoise will live on for generations . We need to get more of the tortoises that are disappearing in the wild into breeders hands . Home breeders produce and have more successful breeding rates than most zoos . The tortoise we have in our hands will never disappear from the plant .


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## Big Ol Tortoise (Nov 30, 2016)

mike taylor said:


> I look at it like this . The sulcata in its home rang is hurting . Here in America it's numbers are great . So this tortoise will live on for generations . We need to get more of the tortoises that are disappearing in the wild into breeders hands . Home breeders produce and have more successful breeding rates than most zoos . The tortoise we have in our hands will never disappear from the plant .


Sulcatas help the ecosystem they live in (obviously) I'd be cool if we did something for them similar to the Galapagos where people would raise the baby's then release them.... maybe that wouldn't work since the Sullys still have predators unlike the Galapagos and Aldabra where the only predators to them was humans and now human is protecter. Just my thoughts


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## mike taylor (Dec 5, 2016)

Man I need to start spell checking better . To late now . I couldn't agree more . I'd gladly pay the shipping cost to send my sulcatas back to Africa . People like Tomas over there are doing wonderful things for the tortoises . I personally don't breed my sulcatas . But red footed tortoises I hope to produce some of them . So far I've only gotten one baby .


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## Tidgy's Dad (Dec 5, 2016)

mike taylor said:


> Man I need to start spell checking better . To late now . I couldn't agree more . I'd gladly pay the shipping cost to send my sulcatas back to Africa . People like Tomas over there are doing wonderful things for the tortoises . I personally don't breed my sulcatas . But red footed tortoises I hope to produce some of them . So far I've only gotten one baby .


I'm in Africa! 
Free sulcatas please, Mike.


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## tortoise5643 (Dec 5, 2016)

mike taylor said:


> Man I need to start spell checking better . To late now . I couldn't agree more . I'd gladly pay the shipping cost to send my sulcatas back to Africa . People like Tomas over there are doing wonderful things for the tortoises . I personally don't breed my sulcatas . But red footed tortoises I hope to produce some of them . So far I've only gotten one baby .


Would shipping them over and releasing be possible? I'd guess it wouldn't be allowed since it could pass parasites to wild populations. They would need a complete check up from a professional which would cost a lot I assume.


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## mike taylor (Dec 5, 2016)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> I'm in Africa!
> Free sulcatas please, Mike.


Nice try Adam!


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## mike taylor (Dec 5, 2016)

tortoise5643 said:


> Would shipping them over and releasing be possible? I'd guess it wouldn't be allowed since it could pass parasites to wild populations. They would need a complete check up from a professional which would cost a lot I assume.


I don't see why we couldn't breed for relocation .


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## JoesMum (Dec 5, 2016)

mike taylor said:


> I don't see why we couldn't breed for relocation .


We can only do that if we know the origins of our animals. 

Where captive breeding programmes exist for reintroduction they carefully manage the parentage of the youngsters reared so that there is certainty of health and breed. 

A reintroduction wouldn't simply use <insert species> by contacting people who bred them. A lot of research would need to be done first. Most of us couldn't even start to trace the wild origins of the tortoises we own. Scientific research might not be able to reveal it.


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## Tom (Dec 6, 2016)

tortoise5643 said:


> Would shipping them over and releasing be possible? I'd guess it wouldn't be allowed since it could pass parasites to wild populations. They would need a complete check up from a professional which would cost a lot I assume.



It is a very very involved process with a lot of testing, vetting and permit granting done many times along the way, but it _can _be done. It should also be understood that many tortoise diseases are not easy to diagnose, even with thousands of dollars of testing and diagnostics per animal. An animal can look and seem healthy to an expert or vet and pass every test administered, but still be carrying a disease that could wipe out a population in the wild. Some diseases organisms and pathogens can only be found in a detailed necropsy performed by a person with lots of experience who knows what they are looking for.

Reintroduction _is _being done with sulcatas over there in Senegal, but its a big deal. In addition to the disease potential, origin questions, government permission issues, the _main_ problem tends to be dealing with whatever caused the problem of wiping out the species in that area in the first place. Poaching for a variety of reasons, habitat destruction and encroachment, pollution, natives feeding their families, introduced predators like rats or feral dogs and cats, introduced competitors for the same foods like cattle, goats, etc… If the original problems are not dealt with and corrected, it will do no good to re-introduce a species.


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