# Tort Nesting Concern



## Maximus (May 4, 2011)

Hi Guys,

Long time no post  have been away for a while (still monitoring the forum to get more info how to make my torts happy).

Have a slight issue. Normally my torts live in an outside enclosure (almost the whole back garden), but we needed to do some changes so I made a temporary space (using large square pots filled with soil and a places for them to hide) on the roof while we finish the work in the yard. We live in Malta so the weather here is almost always hot this time of year and the roof is flat. They seem to like it, so much so that I noticed the female digging away what seems to be a nest. Itâ€™s the first time sheâ€™s doing it so Iâ€™m hoping to do this right. 

The torts live together with a turtle, heâ€™s quite shy never in the way but this morning when feeding I saw him resting bang right on top of what I think is the nest. Is it an issue? Should I do something before itâ€™s too late?


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## bikerchicspain (May 4, 2011)

First of you should not have a turtle with a tortoise, Turtles have alot more bacteria than torts will ever have, They swim around in dirty water in the wild and even in captivity the water is not completely clean.
They also have a very sturdy immune system.

Also take into account that turtles are omnivorous, The turtle could dig the eggs up by accident.
I would separate permitently the turtle from the tortoise


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## Yvonne G (May 4, 2011)

Yvonne makes a good point, however, I would have never thought of it.

What kind of turtle (box turtle or water turtle)? And what kind of tortoise?

It really is a moot point, because I think you should dig up the eggs and incubate them.


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## GBtortoises (May 4, 2011)

I agree with Yvonne, both of them! It was just fun to say that! (But I really do agree too)!


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## TortieLuver (May 4, 2011)

Agree. Separate asap, but am curious what you have?


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## Baoh (May 4, 2011)

bikerchicspain said:


> Turtles have alot more bacteria than torts will ever have



How many more, exactly?


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## Maximus (May 4, 2011)

> Yvonne makes a good point, however, I would have never thought of it.
> 
> What kind of turtle (box turtle or water turtle)? And what kind of tortoise?
> 
> It really is a moot point, because I think you should dig up the eggs and incubate them.



Hi All,

Many thanks for your replies .. will do as you suggest and separate them. I put a pic of what i think is closest to what our turtle looks like. I think they're called terrapins right ? 

As for the torts, we have 2 Greek ones, a male and a female. We've had them for ages, but its the first time we're noticing nesting activities. The nest is still empty, i checked now.

The temporary enclosure is not nice at all, very unhappy with it, and the works on the main yard are taking too long. Was thinking of making a more suitable and permanent one in a nice corner there is on the same roof this wkend but it being concrete it is very difficult to make a soil enclosure. Any ideas ? 

Many thanks again !


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## bikerchicspain (May 5, 2011)

I would say your turtle is either a scripta elegant or scripta script, ( red or yellow eared slider)

These were the most popular in shops and among breeders for a good few years before the ban.

About how much bacteria a turtle has, exactly I don't know, but think of this,
Reptiles can be carriers of salmonella, turtles more so because of the conditions they live in,

They live in water with their own excrement and uneaten food, with them being omnivorous, if any meat, fish has been given and not all of it has been consumed their is an added addition of bacteria from slow rotting food in the water.

Normally in the wild these reps live in dirty, murky water and they relish in it,
It is us human for estetic reason that they live in clean water, hence the health problems they get
when the water conditions get to dirty.

I do not recommend turtles to young children because of the risk to their health, as soon as i say to the parents that they need a large tank, lighting, heating and for th child to wash their hands after putting them in the water, and to wear gloves if they have a wound on their hands, they suddenly say no thank you!

With torts I make sure they understand the maintenance and the handling and hygiene first befor taking one, although most do not buy torts for children as they are so expensive.


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## Baoh (May 5, 2011)

bikerchicspain said:


> About how much bacteria a turtle has, exactly I don't know



So asserting either an absolute or relative value/level to it is meaningless without actual evidence.


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## bikerchicspain (May 5, 2011)

Baoh said:


> bikerchicspain said:
> 
> 
> > About how much bacteria a turtle has, exactly I don't know
> ...



Common sense is the best value, a turtle that lives in it's own excrement and then you put your hand in to get them the turt out, to a tort that does it's business and moves on and you pick it up of the garden


Which one would you say had the most bacteria?

Also it is also known that one of the biggest possible carriers of salmonella are turtles, as in turtles not box turtles?


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## Baoh (May 5, 2011)

bikerchicspain said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> > bikerchicspain said:
> ...



"Common sense" assumes shared assumptions. I'll take evidence over assumption any day.

As an example of an assumption, you are implying in your contextual example that the ground on a garden is low in microbial load and that excrement is high in microbial load. The follow-on assumption is that the former situation is non-pathogenic while the latter is pathogenic. I do not hold that assumption to be necessarily true, whether it is or is not, until tested.

The most bacteria would be determined with microbial testing that neither you nor I have likely performed on these particular two animals. Therefore, since I lack evidence to state a claim, I would not make a definitive statement of more versus less, bad versus good, or any such black-and-white dichotomous declaration. To do so would be irresponsible on my part, as that is not how science and logic work. 

It is known that birds are bigger carriers of salmonella than turtles and, as such, I don't wear a sandwich board in the streets warning people of the potential for bad turkey sandwiches. It is also known that the _typhi_ variant (which is specific to humans) is the worst strain in terms of causing illness in humans and that humans typically cross-contaminate freely without even realizing it. Since more cases of salmonella poisoning have occurred due to cross-contaminated poultry, other foods, and human beings than turtles, I just exercise what I consider to be reasonable caution. To boot, this is more about harm to the tortoise than to humans and, as I am not seeing any evidence showing that a particular strain that turtle may be carrying is a threat to the tortoise or even different from the strain(s) the tortoise may be carrying, I consider the matter alarmist. I have not seen any studies comparing Trachemys versus Testudo immune systems, but a tortoise with a weak immune system could never be an opportunistic feeder and certainly not coprophagic (which tortoises, including Testudo species, often are).

To the latter point, if the crux of your argument is that salmonella is a threat to the health of the tortoise or represents a negative bacterial element due to (undetermined) load, it might stand to reason that such an animal would not freely consume salmonella strains from other species of all sorts when given the opportunity. This is the problem with assumptions as they relate to "common sense", for it assumes our premises are shared.


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## Yvonne G (May 5, 2011)

So far this has been a pretty friendly exchange, but I want to caution each side to keep it friendly. Also, the thread is about a concern with a turtle sitting on a site where tortoise eggs were laid. I think it has gotten a little off topic.

Its a good and interesting argument. I'd like to see it in the debate section.


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## Baoh (May 5, 2011)

I apologize for being potentially disruptive to the topic at hand, so I will refrain from continuing it here for the sake of the OP and etiquette.


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## Maximus (May 12, 2011)

Hi Guys,

Your suggestions paid off. This morning while feeding I saw my tort lady digging a larger nest then usual and damping it. Gave her some time and went to check on her, the nest was leveled and she was sleeping at the other side of the enclosure. I managed to move some soil away and there it was .. one of the eggs (hoping that there are more at the bottom). Was surprised how large it was for the tortâ€™s size.
The only concern now.. I donâ€™t have an incubator. But I live in Malta and the weather here is rather hot during the day. Should I leave them there in the nest? or should I move them just in case she lays more (hopefully ) ?

Tks


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