# Pros and cons of using rubber "wood chips" as substrate inside indoor enclosures?



## Stoneman (Feb 4, 2019)

Alright, so I know 90% of everyone on here is going to blow a gasket at the thought of someone using rubber flooring for their substrate, but, I would like for you to look at the facts with me and hopefully you can learn, or provide experience or some other valuable insight after reading and thoughtfully responding if you have something to contribute. I apologize for beginning the thread so defensively, but I have started conversations like this and I have gotten a lot of flak. 

I am not particularly interested in building "natural" settings. I think they are only natural superficially, and are not natural in the right ways. For example, I use artificial grass and bacteria resistant yoga mats for substrate now. There are areas for potentially egg laying adults that have clean play sand mixed with coco coir. No top soil. This is much easier to know that the soil does not contain harmful parasites, toxic chemical compounds, etc. It is a controlled environment. Plastic boxes with sponges attached to the roof have proven to be much more successful than a wood container with long strand sphagnum moss which is known to cause compaction and other digestive problems. 

Another point, people say they should do best in natural settings, but how many of us keep our dogs in natural settings? I am guessing just about none. They love their pillowy dog bed, the couch, your bed, they don't love living in the dirt in a cave. And neither do we, even though that was most natural for us for a while. Without shoes. 

So with all that being said, why not rubber wood chips? It strengthens their muscles because they have to climb over and dig into the uneven terrain. The rubber acts as a great shock absorber on their joints or in case they fall. The rubber, unlike bark, repels moisture, poop, and microorganisms that porous wood soaks up, and makes it nearly impossible to clean thoroughly. The rubber can be cleaned periodically and reused. As long as it does not rot it has a long life. It is recycled rubber which lowers environmental impact. The only ways that it can become toxic, is if it is either heated or burned. So if I have safe, smart heating system and use chunks that are large and durable enough to not be easily consumable, I think I have the best of both worlds. 

Has anyone ever used this? Or had it in your yard around a tree that your tortoise was exposed to?


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## wellington (Feb 4, 2019)

So stop starting threads like this and you won't get the flak. No, I'm just picking on you. It's good to question new things and ideas. Just remember though the flak comes from love and passion to do the best for our tortoises. It's not usually meant to be taken personally.
I don't like the rubber because of the smell. I looked at the stuff the big box stores sell for landscaping. Little nuggets but big awful smell. Outside the smell might eventually disappear, maybe. In an indoor enclosure, yikes. 
I also like to use coconut coir or dirt. To me it's better for their legs and muscles. I don't like any of the fake stuff like carpets or linoleum. However, I do have rubber type shower liner under the substrate to keep wood from rotting.


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## ZEROPILOT (Feb 4, 2019)

I have many, many times seen my tortoises eating a bit of substrate when they forage for food.
I would avoid petroleum based anything if just for that reason alone. (Rubber wood chips)
Also, rubber mulch is made from car tires. So how many stray steel wires etc could there be lurking in it? And is it good for an animal to be in constant contact with the chemical compounds?
I think it sounds like an overall bad idea.
Substrate that gets soiled is easy and inexpensive to change and to find.


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## Tom (Feb 4, 2019)

The substrates we recommend have properties that inhibit mold, fungi and bacterial growth.

Not absorbing water, like bark, is a bad thing. You want a substrate that can be kept damp. As the dampness slowly evaporates out of the bark over time, it adds to the ambient humidity.


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## Toddrickfl1 (Feb 5, 2019)

Rubber wood chips are made from recycled car tires. I don't see where this would be any more beneficial or healthier than organic substrate.


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## jsheffield (Feb 5, 2019)

I don't see the cost/benefit of switching to a rubber chip substrate working out for me.

the rubber they're made from offgasses continuously
it would inevitably contain (or break apart into) pieces small enough to be ingested
substrates like cypress mulch hold some moisture, which is a good thing for maintaining humidity
cypress mulch seems to (im my experience) inhibit molding, fungi, and bacterial growth
once it's time to clean or replace the natural substrate I use, I can compost the old stuff and get a new bag pretty cheaply
I didn't read anything in the OP that changed my mind about the substrate I currently use, or made me want to try rubber chips in my Darwin's enclosure ... that being said, I'm interested and willing to have my mind changed.

Jamie


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## Stoneman (Feb 7, 2019)

I see what you guys mean. You have changed my perspective. 

I had not thought about how it would constantly make their enclosures smell like a tire store. I don't want my house to smell like a tire store. I am going to check it out next time I see some for sale, but the fact that it doesn't absorb water is kind of an issue I was not thinking much about before, the issue being that if a substantial amount of water spills, that that water will remain and grow into a potentially hazardous culture. 

There are some attractive properties though. Rubber that does not get dry rot will last a really long time. If everything on the road can't break down rubber, I don't think a tortoise is going to be able to eat it if the sizes are all screened to be too large to eat. However if a small piece were to slip through the cracks, and were to get eaten I don't think the digestive would break it down, and could cause impaction issues. I believe petroleum jelly is used for biological purposes because the body just doesn't pick it up, kind of like insoluable fiber. I could be wrong, but that's what I have been lead to believe. 

Rubber does not retain moisture/ water, so if it is cleaned regularly it seems to be great to repel microbes. As long as there is adequate aeration. 

The chips I have seen for use on yards, like for sale at landscaping stores, seems to not be strong enough, partially broken down or constructed of a rubber with poor durability. If it was not soft it might offer some practical application, but if it does not even do that then it is of no use. 

I have heard it mentioned that cypress and orchid bark are antimicrobial, but I just brushed it off as an old wives tale. Do any of you guys have any links to scientific articles or studies about them? That would be great to read. I have tried to find them locally but it is outrageously expensive. Once I get to the northwest I will convert. 

I had the idea pop in my head about the rubber chips, and I wanted to post about it, but then got discouraged because I don't like hearing about naturalistic enclosures because I don't think naturalism is in itself best practice. That's why I started it out so defensive lol. I have had a cold the last few days so haven't been all there enough to respond.


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## Stoneman (Feb 7, 2019)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> Rubber wood chips are made from recycled car tires. I don't see where this would be any more beneficial or healthier than organic substrate.


There are a lot of stable and inert compounds that are inorganic, made in a lab, or not natural, yet extremely safe. 

However, there are a lot of volatile compounds and elements that are organic, natural, found in nature, that are extremely unstable and toxic.


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## PA2019 (Feb 7, 2019)

Stoneman said:


> There are a lot of stable and inert compounds that are inorganic, made in a lab, or not natural, yet extremely safe.
> 
> However, there are a lot of volatile compounds and elements that are organic, natural, found in nature, that are extremely unstable and toxic.




Please explain/cite the "extremely unstable and toxic" compounds found in standard organic substrates such as coir and fir bark chips that is advocated here on the forum. 

Car tire rubber (which is used in making rubber chips) has been researched and scientifically verified as having "several water-soluble compounds that can leach into water and have toxic effects on aquatic organisms." Furthermore, the addition of UVB bulbs(found in most indoor enclosures) can further increase the leeching of toxic compounds from the rubber mulch. 

Link to the above-referenced study

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15620758

Some thoughts....


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## jsheffield (Feb 7, 2019)

I'm thinking of using expired tylenol gelcaps as a substrate in my redfoot's enclosure ... 

J


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## Tom (Feb 7, 2019)

Stoneman said:


> Rubber does not retain moisture/ water, so if it is cleaned regularly it seems to be great to repel microbes. As long as there is adequate aeration.


It does not repel microbes. To the contrary, it actually offers a lot of surface area for microbes to attach to, much like biological filter media in a fish tank filter.


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## TammyJ (Feb 7, 2019)

Before this gets closed, as it just might if it keeps getting more entertaining, I will just say my worthless little bit.
Just a thought on the comparison between dogs and tortoises in their "natural" habitats.
A regular dog's natural habitat is in its owner's home and maybe even in the bed with the owner. It's not a wolf, it's a domestic animal. It's a mammal and lives with human mammals in their homes.
A tortoise lives in the wild and its natural habitat is jungle or grassland, etc. So there is no comparison and that argument can't stand.
OK. Rubber chips? Not for me or my tortoises. But thanks for the interesting thoughts!!!


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## Blackdog1714 (Feb 7, 2019)

Do a human size test. Plastic seal the windows, doors and vents to create a closed chamber. Now use an old school paint that is not low VOC. Sit in there while the paint off gases for 2 hours. Now imagine 24 hours a day and you have rubber substrate for your Tortie. There is a reason people have demanded low VOC paints chemicals off gas


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## lisa127 (Feb 7, 2019)

TammyJ said:


> Before this gets closed, as it just might if it keeps getting more entertaining, I will just say my worthless little bit.
> Just a thought on the comparison between dogs and tortoises in their "natural" habitats.
> A regular dog's natural habitat is in its owner's home and maybe even in the bed with the owner. It's not a wolf, it's a domestic animal. It's a mammal and lives with human mammals in their homes.
> A tortoise lives in the wild and its natural habitat is jungle or grassland, etc. So there is no comparison and that argument can't stand.
> OK. Rubber chips? Not for me or my tortoises. But thanks for the interesting thoughts!!!


Those were my thoughts exactly. Dogs are not wild animals. They have been domesticated for ions. Tortoises are wild animals.


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## Yvonne G (Feb 7, 2019)

Hm-m-m-m. . . interesting. When I saw the subject line I wasn't even interested in reading the thread, but it kept coming up, so decided to read it. First thing I thought was the smell. And your tire store analogy is spot on. I hate that smell. And I can't imagine my poor tortoise having to smell it 24/7. "They" use it in school playgrounds under the swings and slides, so it can't be harmful, however those places are outside and not in an enclosure.

So, for me, I say no thank you. But thanks for the discussion. It was interesting reading.


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## Stoneman (Feb 8, 2019)

PA2019 said:


> Please explain/cite the "extremely unstable and toxic" compounds found in standard organic substrates such as coir and fir bark chips that is advocated here on the forum.
> 
> Car tire rubber (which is used in making rubber chips) has been researched and scientifically verified as having "several water-soluble compounds that can leach into water and have toxic effects on aquatic organisms." Furthermore, the addition of UVB bulbs(found in most indoor enclosures) can further increase the leeching of toxic compounds from the rubber mulch.
> 
> ...



I appreciate your insight. I was in bed at night thinking this might be a good idea. I had not done research, so I am glad you have. 

Organic compounds can be very toxic. Cyanide is organic. Mercury is even more pure, an element. I never said anything about natural substrate options, I was responding to someone's general claim that natural is better than synthetic.


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## Stoneman (Feb 8, 2019)

TammyJ said:


> Before this gets closed, as it just might if it keeps getting more entertaining, I will just say my worthless little bit.
> Just a thought on the comparison between dogs and tortoises in their "natural" habitats.
> A regular dog's natural habitat is in its owner's home and maybe even in the bed with the owner. It's not a wolf, it's a domestic animal. It's a mammal and lives with human mammals in their homes.
> A tortoise lives in the wild and its natural habitat is jungle or grassland, etc. So there is no comparison and that argument can't stand.
> OK. Rubber chips? Not for me or my tortoises. But thanks for the interesting thoughts!!!



I am not going to close the thread. I brought it up to see what the wise minds here had to say. Someone else might inquire about alternative substrates, or even this alternative substrate. So it is good to see ideas compared. 

Perhaps a modern dog's natural habitat is a couch, but what about the dogs bred over tens of thousands of years for purpose? Shepherds, guard dogs, hunting dogs. I am willing to bet when their owners didn't have couches or floors, they probably did not either. Or, what about humans? 75,000 years ago did we have lotions, synthetic shoes, memory foam pillows, cars, and refrigerators? Just because we have co-evolved, does not lead me to believe we are incapable of living in the elements. My point is that perhaps we all, including tortoises, don't thrive in the elements, but merely survive. Perhaps controlled, unnatural environments cause easier lives and greater longevity to many animals.


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## Stoneman (Feb 8, 2019)

Tom said:


> It does not repel microbes. To the contrary, it actually offers a lot of surface area for microbes to attach to, much like biological filter media in a fish tank filter.


I could see that. A lot of what I know about animals, I have learned from keeping chickens. In chickens, anything in wood is bad. As far as equipment goes, you want plastic or metal, because they are easy to clean. Wood is a huge no no because wood is porous, and will retain microbes and water. So the poultry experts recommend painting any structure that is wood with something that repels moisture so that it can be easily and thoroughly cleaned. Rubber, seems to me like a product that is non-porous and easily cleaned. So I didn't think it would be too much of a stretch to apply the same principles to tortoises. I can see what you mean about how it could create films of bacteria on the surface of the rubber, but isn't it intriguing how it can be cleaned periodically?


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## Stoneman (Feb 8, 2019)

Blackdog1714 said:


> Do a human size test. Plastic seal the windows, doors and vents to create a closed chamber. Now use an old school paint that is not low VOC. Sit in there while the paint off gases for 2 hours. Now imagine 24 hours a day and you have rubber substrate for your Tortie. There is a reason people have demanded low VOC paints chemicals off gas



I had to look up what low VOC even meant. It is very concerning that is put in our homes. I will have to look up the relationship between VOCs and rubber some other time, as it is almost 5am, I've got to call it a night. Thank you for your response.


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## PA2019 (Feb 8, 2019)

Stoneman said:


> I appreciate your insight. I was in bed at night thinking this might be a good idea. I had not done research, so I am glad you have.
> 
> Organic compounds can be very toxic. Cyanide is organic. Mercury is even more pure, an element. I never said anything about natural substrate options, I was responding to someone's general claim that natural is better than synthetic.



I know you use plastic mats as a method for reducing parasitic and bacteria transmission, and your general aversion to organic substrates, but I want to point out that coco coir husk has been to studied and confirmed to be anti-bacterial. Please see the following two links validating the anti-microbial properties of the substrate.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4121915/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1319562X12000848

Beyond the anti-microbial properties, there are multiple benefits such as increasing ambient humidity and providing a means for natural behaviors such as digging/scrapes.


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## Tom (Feb 8, 2019)

Stoneman said:


> I could see that. A lot of what I know about animals, I have learned from keeping chickens. In chickens, anything in wood is bad. As far as equipment goes, you want plastic or metal, because they are easy to clean. Wood is a huge no no because wood is porous, and will retain microbes and water. So the poultry experts recommend painting any structure that is wood with something that repels moisture so that it can be easily and thoroughly cleaned. Rubber, seems to me like a product that is non-porous and easily cleaned. So I didn't think it would be too much of a stretch to apply the same principles to tortoises. I can see what you mean about how it could create films of bacteria on the surface of the rubber, but isn't it intriguing how it can be cleaned periodically?


All true info about the chickens, and much of what you said is also USDA regulation. My company has USDA permits and these things are regularly inspected at my ranch. However, totally different animals, totally different type and amount of waste being generated, and a totally different housing situation. We aren't trying to maintain sterile conditions for these tiny little shelled reptiles. The amount of waste and type of waste generated by even a single chicken is exponentially more than what is generated by a little tortoise. The type of waste too is completely different. Also, since we soak our babies daily, almost no waste is deposited into the enclosure onto the substrate. Any that is deposited is easy to remove. Not like the more liquid chicken waste that squirts everywhere and gets into everything. A tortoise turd sits on top and waits for pick up.

Every animal species has different housing requirements. I don't house the dogs the same as the chickens, and I don't house the camel, the same as the kangaroo. I don't keep a fish only tank the same as a reef tank. I don't house lizards the same as snakes, and I don't house my roach colonies the same as my tortoises. Every species has individual requirements. Baby tortoises require a thick damp substrate that they can dig into, that resists bacterial and fungal growth, and that absorbs moisture so that it can slowly allow that moisture to evaporate and generate much needed humidity. Your rubber chip substrate misses two out of these three, and its also smelly and possibly toxic.


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## Stoneman (Feb 8, 2019)

PA2019 said:


> I know you use plastic mats as a method for reducing parasitic and bacteria transmission, and your general aversion to organic substrates, but I want to point out that coco coir husk has been to studied and confirmed to be anti-bacterial. Please see the following two links validating the anti-microbial properties of the substrate.
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4121915/
> 
> ...



Thank you.


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## Stoneman (Feb 8, 2019)

PA2019 said:


> Please explain/cite the "extremely unstable and toxic" compounds found in standard organic substrates such as coir and fir bark chips that is advocated here on the forum.
> 
> Car tire rubber (which is used in making rubber chips) has been researched and scientifically verified as having "several water-soluble compounds that can leach into water and have toxic effects on aquatic organisms." Furthermore, the addition of UVB bulbs(found in most indoor enclosures) can further increase the leeching of toxic compounds from the rubber mulch.
> 
> ...



Interesting. That's terrible we are so defendant on it for our lifestyles.


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## Stoneman (Feb 8, 2019)

I found a nice article on the orchid tree bark and it's antimicrobial properties. It concludes that the plant has microbicide effects. 

https://www.researchgate.net/public...al_Activity_of_Stem_Bark_of_Bauhinia_Purpurea


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## Stoneman (Feb 8, 2019)

Tom said:


> All true info about the chickens, and much of what you said is also USDA regulation. My company has USDA permits and these things are regularly inspected at my ranch. However, totally different animals, totally different type and amount of waste being generated, and a totally different housing situation. We aren't trying to maintain sterile conditions for these tiny little shelled reptiles. The amount of waste and type of waste generated by even a single chicken is exponentially more than what is generated by a little tortoise. The type of waste too is completely different. Also, since we soak our babies daily, almost no waste is deposited into the enclosure onto the substrate. Any that is deposited is easy to remove. Not like the more liquid chicken waste that squirts everywhere and gets into everything. A tortoise turd sits on top and waits for pick up.
> 
> Every animal species has different housing requirements. I don't house the dogs the same as the chickens, and I don't house the camel, the same as the kangaroo. I don't keep a fish only tank the same as a reef tank. I don't house lizards the same as snakes, and I don't house my roach colonies the same as my tortoises. Every species has individual requirements. Baby tortoises require a thick damp substrate that they can dig into, that resists bacterial and fungal growth, and that absorbs moisture so that it can slowly allow that moisture to evaporate and generate much needed humidity. Your rubber chip substrate misses two out of these three, and its also smelly and possibly toxic.


Well said Tom. Thank you.


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## ZEROPILOT (Feb 9, 2019)

Yvonne G said:


> Hm-m-m-m. . . interesting. When I saw the subject line I wasn't even interested in reading the thread, but it kept coming up, so decided to read it. First thing I thought was the smell. And your tire store analogy is spot on. I hate that smell. And I can't imagine my poor tortoise having to smell it 24/7. "They" use it in school playgrounds under the swings and slides, so it can't be harmful, however those places are outside and not in an enclosure.
> 
> So, for me, I say no thank you. But thanks for the discussion. It was interesting reading.


Ok. So. I'm the ONLY MEMBER that thinks new tires smell good?


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## leigti (Feb 9, 2019)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Ok. So. I'm the ONLY MEMBER that thinks new tires smell good?



Yes.


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## ascott (Feb 9, 2019)

Stoneman said:


> Alright, so I know 90% of everyone on here is going to blow a gasket at the thought of someone using rubber flooring for their substrate, but, I would like for you to look at the facts with me and hopefully you can learn, or provide experience or some other valuable insight after reading and thoughtfully responding if you have something to contribute. I apologize for beginning the thread so defensively, but I have started conversations like this and I have gotten a lot of flak.
> 
> I am not particularly interested in building "natural" settings. I think they are only natural superficially, and are not natural in the right ways. For example, I use artificial grass and bacteria resistant yoga mats for substrate now. There are areas for potentially egg laying adults that have clean play sand mixed with coco coir. No top soil. This is much easier to know that the soil does not contain harmful parasites, toxic chemical compounds, etc. It is a controlled environment. Plastic boxes with sponges attached to the roof have proven to be much more successful than a wood container with long strand sphagnum moss which is known to cause compaction and other digestive problems.
> 
> ...



No. I do match the tort with close to like materials that they would naturally find....that is my job. I am housing animals forced to be kept in spaces that are not what they would exactly be in naturally...so why the hell would I add insult to injury by forcing them to live on rubber tires...please? Seriously?


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## Tamihealey5163 (Feb 13, 2019)

Lol....I don't know about anyone else...but my ding a ling will eat a white rock if given the chance! But what can I say...its a boy. So i wouldn't chance the rubber because of his unique taste for inedible objects...aside from all the helpful advice and suggestions you've already received. I've always used and am crazy about coco coir as many others are. Really holds on to the humidity. And i too just toss the freshly changed and newly "fertilized" coco coir into the garden. Working in a garden nursery for years....i actually use it as a mulch also...but not pressed up to the plant stem...and it keeps moisture in the ground and fertilizing the plant as you water. For your veggies...Just mix into soil fort the gift that keeps on giving! As they are not meat eaters the dirty coir is perfectly fine to use


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## Stoneman (Feb 14, 2019)

ascott said:


> No. I do match the tort with close to like materials that they would naturally find....that is my job. I am housing animals forced to be kept in spaces that are not what they would exactly be in naturally...so why the hell would I add insult to injury by forcing them to live on rubber tires...please? Seriously?



I appreciate and understand the perspective of the naturalist. However, I think of tortoises, like my dogs, as to be more like small children. Simple, with simple desires and simple needs. I think it can be argued that a dog is more intelligent than tortoises. What makes a dog happy? To play games, be safe, comfortable, and maybe pass on Genes one day. To have the rubber ball thrown for them. To run around in the artificially manicured lawn. Of course, having an entire mountain would probably make them happier than a backyard, but, would they exchange the mountain for a couch and constant supply of food? Maybe. Maybe not. It's hard to tell what they would choose. But we have some clues as where to start. My objective in providing an environment is not naturalism, but looking at their behavior and biology and basing their enclosures on that. 

Clean shock absorbing floor ☆
Plastic baths for exercise and experiment ☆
plastic humid hides with artificial sponges ☆
Lots of corners as to feel safe and secure ☆
Artificially created humidity, light, heat, and UV? ☆
Manufactured bowls with unnaturally procured food and water sources? ☆

I have seen a lot of beautiful terrariums, but most of the time I think, was the person doing this for themself? As a way to show to friends? Or are they anthropomorphising the needs of the tortoise? Is that truly what the tortoise wants? I bet many tortoises would prefer a plastic hide with food in its bowl over a plant that provides no angled security, that it cannot reach to eat.


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## Stoneman (Feb 14, 2019)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Ok. So. I'm the ONLY MEMBER that thinks new tires smell good?


I appreciate the way it smells when I am there, but I would not like that being the constant smell of my house.


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## Stoneman (Feb 14, 2019)

Tamihealey5163 said:


> Lol....I don't know about anyone else...but my ding a ling will eat a white rock if given the chance! But what can I say...its a boy. So i wouldn't chance the rubber because of his unique taste for inedible objects...aside from all the helpful advice and suggestions you've already received. I've always used and am crazy about coco coir as many others are. Really holds on to the humidity. And i too just toss the freshly changed and newly "fertilized" coco coir into the garden. Working in a garden nursery for years....i actually use it as a mulch also...but not pressed up to the plant stem...and it keeps moisture in the ground and fertilizing the plant as you water. For your veggies...Just mix into soil fort the gift that keeps on giving! As they are not meat eaters the dirty coir is perfectly fine to use



Thank you for sharing your experience about your tortoises behavior, it is interesting you say that is why you use coco coir, that is exactly why I do not use it. I worry about all of those little stands getting stuck inside their body. But, I am not sure how I would feel of they were eating the rubber either. That is why I was looking into it. 

Thank you for sharing your gardening experience. I get worried about salmonella transmission, but I think if that is ruled out then it is probably safe to use in a garden.


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## ascott (Feb 14, 2019)

Stoneman said:


> Thank you for sharing your experience about your tortoises behavior, it is interesting you say that is why you use coco coir, that is exactly why I do not use it. I worry about all of those little stands getting stuck inside their body. But, I am not sure how I would feel of they were eating the rubber either. That is why I was looking into it.
> 
> Thank you for sharing your gardening experience. I get worried about salmonella transmission, but I think if that is ruled out then it is probably safe to use in a garden.



How exactly would you rule out Salmonella transmission? I do not believe you would be able to. Therefore, I would not use the rubber simply because you, a human, think you can outsmart nature...silly human. 

There is no way that you can convince me that "trying" to match their natural environment is a failed attempt. I mean, placing rubber in the enclosure simply because you, a human, believe it is best does not make it so.

I am a bit offended that you automatically label me a "naturalist"...I mean, exactly what the hell do you mean by that label. When I say I try to match as close as I can their natural environment of course I know the difference between fake environment with items that they would NEVER come into contact with vs materials that are close to their natural environment is a negative thing. I actually believe now that you are a person that is trying to convince others that your way is the right way because some how you are not an "environmentalist" again, not exactly sure of what that means here in this context....but I would have to vote for closer to natural than an environment covered in rubber???? hmmm?


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## Stoneman (Feb 15, 2019)

ascott said:


> How exactly would you rule out Salmonella transmission? I do not believe you would be able to. Therefore, I would not use the rubber simply because you, a human, think you can outsmart nature...silly human.
> 
> There is no way that you can convince me that "trying" to match their natural environment is a failed attempt. I mean, placing rubber in the enclosure simply because you, a human, believe it is best does not make it so.
> 
> I am a bit offended that you automatically label me a "naturalist"...I mean, exactly what the hell do you mean by that label. When I say I try to match as close as I can their natural environment of course I know the difference between fake environment with items that they would NEVER come into contact with vs materials that are close to their natural environment is a negative thing. I actually believe now that you are a person that is trying to convince others that your way is the right way because some how you are not an "environmentalist" again, not exactly sure of what that means here in this context....but I would have to vote for closer to natural than an environment covered in rubber???? hmmm?



When something is really important to me, I try to break it down into things I understand. I try to simplify things. I am a simple man. There is so much in this world that I do not understand. If I had all the time in the world, I would try to learn it, but I know, that the would still be so much that I knew too little about. 

When I think about my understanding, and everyone's understanding in general, I like to think of it like a map of the world. Everyone has an idea of what it, or parts of it, look like. Some are more accurate than others. Some have different types of details than others. 

It seems strange to me that the ground that is walked can have such great importance in the quality of life and health of an animal. When I first got into tortoises, I lot of time trying to figure out what was best. It seemed simple in the beginning, to just use dirt, and hydrate it. I got my tortoises from LLL and after having them for about six months, I thought it would be best to give them a fecal scree , as a way to monitor their health. They were loaded with parasites. Parasites that live in the dirt, and can be re-transmitted from the dirt, even after medication. This was not something I wanted again so I started looking into alternatives. 

My local exotic vet told me to use a substrate that can be easily cleaned. I like the natural look of dirt, but I am concerned about its ability to transmit pathogens. The wood bark seems like a good alternative, since everything discussed in the study I posted states that it has antimicrobial properties, is not easily ingested, allows burrowing, does not emit toxic vapors, retains humidy, and is easily scraped up and discarded. The fact that it is naturally produced in nature is a plus, but it is the other factors that are most intriguing to me. 

I have environmentalist values. I am terrified of climate change, even though many of my countrymen are blinded by the petroleum, coal, and natural gas lobbyists. I recently posted an article on my facebook about how plastification of our seas and our environment is causing catastrophic effects that will last forever. 

I did not mean to offend but implying that you were a naturalist. I did a google search of naturalist, and it said that naturalism is a synonym to naturalistic. I have uploaded a screenshot of what my phone says that means. I was, and still am, under the impression that you feel that which is most natural is best practice. I understand and appreciate your perspective. I think it is a noble pursuit. and I think more tortoises would live longer and healthier lives if they had caretakers as thoughtful as you are. I know it takes a lot of work to try to recreate that, and that you are passionate about trying to create and maintain the best environment possible for your chelonian friends. I am too. But I see it from a different perspective. 

However, instead of using my time and resources for recreating nature, I am trying to develop a program around their biology, and the microbiological factors as well. Giving them baths daily in plastic bowls is not natural, but it provides exercise, digestive flow, and hydration. So I do it. This is an example of why and how I do the things I do. 

I once saw rubber wood chips in a garden store about six months ago. Last week I debated internally about whether or not it would be a good idea for substate. I wondered if anyone else had any experience with it, since I have never used it, even in a garden. I have never held it. I have never picked it up and smelled it. I have never tried to break it apart. I have no idea how strong it's structural integrity is, or if it has metal wires as someone has suggested. I am going to reiterate, at this point in time, I do not think it would be a good thing to use. Fortunately the are a lot of great minds on this forum who have a collective knowledge of a lot of things. That's exactly why I asked. I did not start this thread to prove a point, but to discuss the pros and cons of using this as a substrate. Orchid bark has much better properties according to scientific studies and steward experience.


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## Stoneman (Feb 15, 2019)

ascott said:


> How exactly would you rule out Salmonella transmission? I do not believe you would be able to. Therefore, I would not use the rubber simply because you, a human, think you can outsmart nature...silly human.



Mother nature has a lot of secrets. Our government has tried to protect us from those more harmful things that we can be exposed to, like controls to limit the spread of salmonella transference. Which is why the FDA implemented the toxic 4" rule, which has been extremely bad for CBW propagation of tortoise species in the United States. It is kind of silly they ban tortoises for sale under 4", but not baby chickens or dogs, which can also be contagious asymptomatic carriers of the disease. 

I am sorry if I seem ignorant, but I am struggling to understand what you are upset about in this paragraph. My concern with the disease transmission is that I have read that salmonella pullorium can be transmitted through the feces, and that if someone puts that in contact with vegetables they handle and do not cook, that it can be contagious. I was hoping to warn the person who made the response about why it is potentially dangerous to do that. Salmonella can be dangerous to people, especially the elderly and children. That's why it is recommended to not bathe your tortoise in the kitchen sink, and to keep the food and terra cotta feeding bowels separate from things your regular food stuff. 

If you want to rule out salmonella transmission, you can take one of two steps that I have done. You can buy a microscope, and a centrifuge machine, and see the bacteria. Or, you can use a salmonella pullorium antigen, and it will coagulate instantly if it tests positive. I bought the antigen for chickens. But, I am sure it would work for tortoises. I would recommend anyone by the scope and centrifuge. It is easy to spot parasites, and can lead to saving the lives of tons of tortoises. Many, many reptiles die from high parasite loads every day. They are the cost of only about five fecal sample tests, and you can test them as frequently as you want for free after you buy the setup. I know it's not natural, but I think it would be a great way to help tortoises. Here is a screenshot of my purchase history at that time. I believe I got the scope from the manufacturer. Everything set me back only about $350. A great investment in long term care, in my opinion. 

https://www.strombergschickens.com/product/pullorum-antigen-1000-tests/Poultry-Vaccines-Blood-Tests

https://www.biovac.ceva.com/en/Reagents/Avian-reagent/Salmonella


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## TammyJ (Feb 15, 2019)

Stoneman, I respect you for your intelligence and patience in promoting your idea. Let us know how it works for you as an experiment!
I suppose I am imagining myself as a tortoise, clambering and struggling and sliding around all my life on rubber wood chips and feeling rather hopeless.


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## Stoneman (Feb 15, 2019)

I made a mistake. I wrote something wrong. Pullorium and salmonella are separate bugs. Pullorium is a virus. Both have antigens available that provide immediate results.


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## Stoneman (Feb 15, 2019)

TammyJ said:


> Stoneman, I respect you for your intelligence and patience in promoting your idea. Let us know how it works for you as an experiment!
> I suppose I am imagining myself as a tortoise, clambering and struggling and sliding around all my life on rubber wood chips and feeling rather hopeless.



Thank you Tammy. I appreciate this. I did feel pretty good about the idea, until others who are more informed and experienced on certain things showed me some setbacks in the plan. For one, Tom stated that it would likely trap moisture. I have had water collect and sit under terra cotta plates, and it got moldy. I am sure this would happen if there was a water spill, because the water would not dissipate. 

I do think it has some advantages in theory, but in practice I don't think it would work as well as orchid bark, cedar, or probably even ground coco coir. My intent was not to promote rubber chips, but to show everyone the potential benefits I thought it might have, so that the idea was not immediately rejected. I have no skin in the game either way. I have no interest in pursuing this, and I will not be conducting any experiments with it. I do not recommend others do it either. 

I do however, recommend that we seek creative and innovative solutions to our stewardship, and that if anyone comes up with out of the box or atypical solutions, I am the first to want to hear about it, and that thay should let all of the rest of us know about it so we can work together on projects and benefit from each others ingenuity.


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## KAGDR (Feb 15, 2019)

rubber does dry rot...ask anyone with campers or cars in storage,it cracks and becomes unstable


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## Stoneman (Feb 16, 2019)

KAGDR said:


> rubber does dry rot...ask anyone with campers or cars in storage,it cracks and becomes unstable


Yes, I know armor all on car tires helps, and so does minimizing exposure to UV Ray's. Too bad torts need UV, and I am going to bet armor all does not add a whole lot of benefit to tortoise health


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## ascott (Feb 17, 2019)

Stoneman said:


> Yes, I know armor all on car tires helps, and so does minimizing exposure to UV Ray's. Too bad torts need UV, and I am going to bet armor all does not add a whole lot of benefit to tortoise health



This in itself is all true....minimize exposure to uv rays? I am not sorry for sharing here what I am about to....you are dealing with a creature that needs and thrives with exposure to uv rays....you as a human have been told uv rays will kill you...silly. We humans need and thrive with uv rays...simple as that. I would suggest that if you are going to house and host a uv ray loving creature that you understand it is in itself is needed...the sun and all of its glory is designed to promote what you and I and reptiles need to survive...period. Now back to the substrate....I now and still continue to promote the need for dirt....the glorious wonderful product....dirt. The earth is well, derived of dirt....period. I do not understand how you have been convinced that dirt is harmful....the dirt hold the wonderful items we all need to perform. Bacteria and critters in the dirt and designed to promote, hamper and design how we function....stop trying to think we know better. Just use it ....it is there for our use and protection. Period. Rubber is needed for tires and such, not for living, dwelling, digging critters to live in. Stop it.


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## Stoneman (Feb 18, 2019)

Minimizing exposure to UV Ray's helps extend the effective life on tires on vehicles. So because tortoises in indoor enclosures recieve frequent and direct UV Ray's, it would cause the rubber to break down more quickly, making rubber less effective to use as a safe substrate for tortoises, especially since, as I have learned from this thread, that toxic fumes can be released at a greater rate when the product breaks down. I am sure this would be even more harmful in a closed chamber environment, which I am planning on converting my enclosures to. 

I am not really sure what point you are trying to make, it seems like you have stopped following the comments in this thread a few pages back... I am not, nor have I ever, been all for the promotion of rubber substrate. The intent to of thread was to compare and contrast the benefits of it, by first putting forth the potential benefits I initially saw, because how else could I or would I bring the idea to the table? 

I think dirt has a lot of great purposes, it covers our earth and sustain lives. However, in a small controlled environment, there are too many risks of not being able to control pathogens for me to use it, or to recommend others use it when other more effective materials are possible to be used by the steward.


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## TammyJ (Feb 21, 2019)

Stoneman said:


> Thank you Tammy. I appreciate this. I did feel pretty good about the idea, until others who are more informed and experienced on certain things showed me some setbacks in the plan. For one, Tom stated that it would likely trap moisture. I have had water collect and sit under terra cotta plates, and it got moldy. I am sure this would happen if there was a water spill, because the water would not dissipate.
> 
> I do think it has some advantages in theory, but in practice I don't think it would work as well as orchid bark, cedar, or probably even ground coco coir. My intent was not to promote rubber chips, but to show everyone the potential benefits I thought it might have, so that the idea was not immediately rejected. I have no skin in the game either way. I have no interest in pursuing this, and I will not be conducting any experiments with it. I do not recommend others do it either.
> 
> I do however, recommend that we seek creative and innovative solutions to our stewardship, and that if anyone comes up with out of the box or atypical solutions, I am the first to want to hear about it, and that thay should let all of the rest of us know about it so we can work together on projects and benefit from each others ingenuity.


I am with you on what you have said. Just saying, though, cedar is toxic to reptiles.


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## Travick (Feb 21, 2019)

> I think dirt has a lot of great purposes, it covers our earth and sustain lives. However, in a small controlled environment, there are too many risks of not being able to control pathogens for me to use it, or to recommend others use it when other more effective materials are possible to be used by the steward.



I think my tort loves clay mask. It gives a lot of minerals soaked right through the skin and provide nice layer for friendly bacterias. And he loves the earthy smell and moving stuff in the soil.


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## Stoneman (Feb 23, 2019)

TammyJ said:


> I am with you on what you have said. Just saying, though, cedar is toxic to reptiles.



I meant cypress, I always get the names mixed up.


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