# Tortoises Telling Others to Get out of their Territory



## akbecker (May 22, 2014)

Hi All - I've read about the issues between keeping pairs of tortoises together - due to bullying and also because one might be telling the other one to get out its territory, and the second not having anywhere to go.

My question is, what happens if you have two enclosures that are separate, but directly next to each other. Since tortoises can smell each other, is it possible to still create the issue where one is being stressed because the other is continually telling it to get out their space, even though they aren't actually in the same enclosure?

Thanks!


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## kathyth (May 22, 2014)

I have heard different responses.
I'm interested to see answers to this good question.


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## G_Vincey (May 22, 2014)

What if you had a connection between the two and observe whether they tend to stay in separate enclosures or prefer to be together.. 
Maybe the fact they can smell each other but can't interact with each other is stressing them out..
If they then tend to stay separate, try moving one enclosure further away and see if they seem less stressed..
Just a suggestion..


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## naturalman91 (May 22, 2014)

you just raised a great question i look forward to hearing the answer


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (May 22, 2014)

As far as I have Hurd or seen is a torts world is what he can see nothing about smell . 


Sent from my iPhone using TortForum


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## akbecker (May 22, 2014)

I'm not sure mine will actually be stressed. See this thread for the enclosure they will be in as soon as night time temps are stable: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/greek-and-russian-outdoor-enclosures.92861/#post-863614

Originally, I had one female Greek in an indoor enclosure abutting another which housed one female and one male Russian. The Greek climbed the walls and kept ending up in the Russians'. So I did just that, I gave them a connection. The two females didn't interact at all. The male would trade off hanging out with each one. When all three were together in their large indoor enclosure, no one tried to climb out. Then I quickly learned that the mixed species, and then the pair of the one female to one male Russian was bad. So all are now separated indoors. The Greek continues to climb the walls to try to get into the Russian female's enclsosure (its the only one closest) but her sides are capped, so she can't. 

Starting this weekend (fingers crossed for the weather to cooperate) each will be in their outdoor enclosures full time. I posted this thread because I'm a little worried since the females will have the abutting enclosures, shown in the thread. I worry the Greek may hurt herself if she continues to try to climb the walls in the new place. But, it got me thinking that if she climbs the walls because she can smell the other one, whether they can also bully each other. 

I may have to just give one of the girls free reign of both sides, and re-home the other girl since I don't want either one to be stressed. But I also have trouble knowing if they are stressed. The male is in his own outdoor enclosure away from everyone, and he sometimes climbs the walls. So I don't know if that's even a sign of being stressed, or just an attempted jail break - which if any of them where originally wild caught, I can't really blame them. Meanwhile, I've been breaking the rules this spring while I've been building the two new separated enclosures, and have been allowing the two females in an outdoor enclosure, just the two of them, with a lot of sight barriers - and those two never interact, and both eat like hogs. The only change is that the Russian female now climbs the walls like there is no tomorrow - so maybe the Greek is telling her to get out, and she's trying. 

So maybe the real question is whether climbing walls is an indication of stress. Does anyone with just one tortoise have any experience with them climbing the walls?


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## naturalman91 (May 22, 2014)

i think maybe @Tom could answer this


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## tortadise (May 22, 2014)

Tortoises sight is the primary olfactory sense they use. Smell comes next. It does have a large use in tortoises day by day nature. But visual is the main. Males will stare down females then go smell them, if they are ovulating the male will typical become more eager to breed, even though they breed all the time anyways. If you took the main site perimeter out of the equation the desire kinda dwindles. Generally speaking however. I had a very large male pardalis pardalis years back before selling him. This was not the case. He would have to get separated after breeding the females in the enclosure next to them. He would continually pace and pace at the demising wall between the females and him. So yes and no really is the answer. It's a loaded question for sure.


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## Tom (May 22, 2014)

I have no doubt that tortoises can smell each other, but as long as the submissive one cannot see or be reached in any way by the dominant one, there should be no issues with stress.


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## akbecker (May 22, 2014)

Interesting - thanks for all the great responses!


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## N2TORTS (May 22, 2014)

*Tortoises can smell very well due to an Organ called the “Jacobs Organ” which sits in the olfactory tract inside the tortoise mouth. This “amazing” sensor is much more advanced in a snake , and can be witnessed constantly as the snake flickers it’s tongue to draw air in past this organ which resides above it’s front lip (pits) . One neat tid bit of info ….Most chelonians, even possess taste buds although, the Snapping Turtle does not have taste buds -- this might help them to eat and swallow food that would otherwise be perceived as poisonous ya think?
Pheromones’ definitely play a role when multi torts are involved and can be seen with breeding activity wall and pen seperations as well as dominance of the herd and yard space.*


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## wellington (May 22, 2014)

Great question, great info


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## Daisy Mae (Jun 18, 2014)

akbecker said:


> I'm not sure mine will actually be stressed. See this thread for the enclosure they will be in as soon as night time temps are stable: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/greek-and-russian-outdoor-enclosures.92861/#post-863614
> 
> Originally, I had one female Greek in an indoor enclosure abutting another which housed one female and one male Russian. The Greek climbed the walls and kept ending up in the Russians'. So I did just that, I gave them a connection. The two females didn't interact at all. The male would trade off hanging out with each one. When all three were together in their large indoor enclosure, no one tried to climb out. Then I quickly learned that the mixed species, and then the pair of the one female to one male Russian was bad. So all are now separated indoors. The Greek continues to climb the walls to try to get into the Russian female's enclsosure (its the only one closest) but her sides are capped, so she can't.
> 
> ...


I take mine out to graze every day around 10:30 if Im late they try to climb the walls if im very late they take a giant poo to let me know just how they feel about tardiness, otherwise no climbing.


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