# when will my tortoise lay eggs?



## egyptian and proud "mayar"

i have two greek tortoises , male"18-19 cm" , female " about 22 cm" .
i have them for over a year now , the female didn't lay any eggs , i didn't put any soil in their house . would that be the problem or what?
they mate 2 -3 times a week


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## tortadise

*RE: when will my tortoise ay eggs?*

You Definitely have to have a good nesting site for your female to dig and lay her eggs. But breeding isn't an instant anatomical occurance. I'm not sure on Greeks but the female has to develope the eggs which takes time and them when they breed that is when te male fertilizes them. The female doesn't drop the eggs right after they breed. Just make sure that their is a good deep nesting site for her to lay. At least 10" of good soil. And it's really just a waiting game really.


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## Tom

*RE: when will my tortoise ay eggs?*

There are many things going on here...
1. Some tortoises just take longer to mature than others. It might be years Before you see an egg.
2. They have to be relatively comfortable in their environment to produce and lay eggs. Do you house the two of them together full time? If yes, she is probably way too stressed to want to breed. Housing them as a pair in a relatively small indoor enclosure is about the worse thing you can do. They don't pal around in the wild. When a male happens to find a female in the wild during the right time of year, he breeds her and then they go their separate ways. Forcing her to deal with him always in her face is likely very stressful.
3. From your soil comment, I am guessing that they are housed indoors. Making them a large, interesting outdoor enclosure and putting them out there during decent weather, will improve their health, their mood, and make it much more likely for you to get egg deposition.
4. Just be cause he mounts the female does NOT mean copulation and sperm deposition has taken place. A lot of times the males just do this to assert themselves and the females might be forced to tolerate it, but no actual "breeding" occurs.

Suggestion: House them separately and only introduce them a few times a year for breeding. Or... obtain two more females, quarantine them, get some fecal exams during quarantine, medicate them if necessary, and then introduce them all together in very large enclosures with lots of hiding areas and visual barriers. If you must house them only indoors, you will need to get creative and provide several nest boxes with different substrates until you find one that your female finds suitable.


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## egyptian and proud "mayar"

thanks for the replies
i have to house them indoors because i live in a flat  , i will put some soil in their house and just wait  but i still wish it would lay some eggs quickly , i really can't wait to see their babies  
when i separate them , the male goes crazy and leave the food  i guess they are in love


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## Arizona Sulcata

It could be a number of things but something that is very important in order for them to produce eggs is their diet. If my torts have a large variety in their diet and have constant access to food they lay every 30 days on the nose. That's once they've established a habbit of laying though, it takes them a while to adjust to a new environment and can take quite some time before they'll lay eggs once relocated.


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## egyptian and proud "mayar"

Arizona Sulcata said:


> It could be a number of things but something that is very important in order for them to produce eggs is their diet. If my torts have a large variety in their diet and have constant access to food they lay every 30 days on the nose. That's once they've established a habbit of laying though, it takes them a while to adjust to a new environment and can take quite some time before they'll lay eggs once relocated.



i fed them Egyptian lettuce , the female refuses to eat anything else except in winter when we can't find lettuce anymore she eats green beans , the male eats a lot of things but he always like the lettuce more
i have them for over a year now so they are used to the place now


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## Arizona Sulcata

egyptian and proud "mayar" said:


> i fed them Egyptian lettuce , the female refuses to eat anything else except in winter when we can't find lettuce anymore she eats green beans , the male eats a lot of things but he always like the lettuce more
> i have them for over a year now so they are used to the place now



Sometimes it can take longer than a year. Do they live outside? Is there any grass or weeds or leaves available to them?


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## Akronic

i would change over to at least a spring mix, or dandelions. green beans are not that good for them and the Egyptian lettuce looks more like iceberg to really have much nutritional value. i would ditch both the green beans and the lettuce and use some of the items listed on this link http://russiantortoise.org/russiantortoisediet.htm


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## egyptian and proud "mayar"

Arizona Sulcata said:


> egyptian and proud "mayar" said:
> 
> 
> 
> i fed them Egyptian lettuce , the female refuses to eat anything else except in winter when we can't find lettuce anymore she eats green beans , the male eats a lot of things but he always like the lettuce more
> i have them for over a year now so they are used to the place now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes it can take longer than a year. Do they live outside? Is there any grass or weeds or leaves available to them?
Click to expand...


no they live indoors , no i didn't try to fed them weeds or grass , i only tried lettuce , green beans and cucumber , but the female only ate the lettuce




Akronic said:


> i would change over to at least a spring mix, or dandelions. green beans are not that good for them and the Egyptian lettuce looks more like iceberg to really have much nutritional value. i would ditch both the green beans and the lettuce and use some of the items listed on this link http://russiantortoise.org/russiantortoisediet.htm



i can try the cabbage but i don't even know most of the items in that list , i can try Hibiscus too but i can only buy the dried one , the fresh one is never available here


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## LeaderLeprechaun

cucumber doesnt have much nutritional value, i would try forms of squash instead


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## egyptian and proud "mayar"

LeaderLeprechaun said:


> cucumber doesnt have much nutritional value, i would try forms of squash instead



i tried the squash but they refused to eat it
i tried tomato too but they didn't like it a lot


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## GBtortoises

Sucessful breeding and egg production depends upon what posters have mentioned above as well as tortoises being well acclimated to their surroundings _without sudden or drastic change_ happening. In other words, they must establish a routine, usually an annual cycle for temperate species. Tortoises must first be secure in their surroundings before they will begin to reproduce.


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## egyptian and proud "mayar"

GBtortoises said:


> Sucessful breeding and egg production depends upon what posters have mentioned above as well as tortoises being well acclimated to their surroundings _without sudden or drastic change_ happening. In other words, they must establish a routine, usually an annual cycle for temperate species. Tortoises must first be secure in their surroundings before they will begin to reproduce.



who long will they take to fell secured?? i have them for a year now


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## Akronic

well if you were doing things right, that would have been plenty of time for them to adjust or calm down. the cabbage and tomato are not good for them. try salad greens, dark broad leafed greens, not pale white cabbage/lettuce. get spring mix. they must not have normal salad mix where you live


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## egyptian and proud "mayar"

Egyptian lettuce is rich in vitamin e , a and d
i can try spinach , but i heard that it could harm them
i can try parsley , Coriander and Arugula , are they healthy for them?


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## Michael Bird

There are many different varieties of "Egyptian Lettuce" since virtually ALL lettuces are variants of the lettuce plants originally cultivated in Egypt. What type of lettuce are you actually feeding to the tortoises? It may be a decent food for them, but they need a good variety of foods in order to stay healthy, especially if you want them to lay eggs. Where do you live? You may not have access to every possible food source, but you definitely need to find something more than just the plain lettuce (and don't give them green beans or tomatoes, cabbage, cucumbers, or white/iceberg lettuce). Cucumbers and white lettuce aren't bad for them, but they don't have any real nutritional value.


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## egyptian and proud "mayar"

Michael Bird said:


> There are many different varieties of "Egyptian Lettuce" since virtually ALL lettuces are variants of the lettuce plants originally cultivated in Egypt. What type of lettuce are you actually feeding to the tortoises? It may be a decent food for them, but they need a good variety of foods in order to stay healthy, especially if you want them to lay eggs. Where do you live? You may not have access to every possible food source, but you definitely need to find something more than just the plain lettuce (and don't give them green beans or tomatoes, cabbage, cucumbers, or white/iceberg lettuce). Cucumbers and white lettuce aren't bad for them, but they don't have any real nutritional value.




this is the type i use "the photo below"
i can try spinach , parsley , Coriander and Arugula , are they healthy for them?


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## Michael Bird

That is Romaine lettuce, which is an OK food for tortoises as part of a larger diet, but definitely shouldn't be the only thing that the tortoise eats. Spinach and parsley are OK as a rare "treat" for something different, but should not be fed regularly because they are high in goitrogens, which impair thyroid function when fed in excess. Arugula is good, but as with the Romaine, shouldn't be the only thing they eat.

My Greek's main food source is spring mix salad (a mix of green and red romaine lettuce, red and green oak lettuce, tango, lolla rossa, red and green leaf lettuce, mizuna, arugula, tatsoi, mache, red and green chard, endive, and raddichio) since it is readily available in every grocery market, is inexpensive, and automatically provides a nice variety of foods. Once in a while it has spinach as well so I watch for that and pick some of it out if there is a lot, but otherwise I just grab a handful and let her chow down. I also mix in zucchini squash, prickly pear cactus fruit and pads, rose leaves, dandelions, clover, and (very rarely) some strawberry stems/leaves as a special treat.

The main thing is to make sure they have a good variety of foods so they can get all of the nutrients that they need in order to stay healthy and happy.


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## egyptian and proud "mayar"

Michael Bird said:


> That is Romaine lettuce, which is an OK food for tortoises as part of a larger diet, but definitely shouldn't be the only thing that the tortoise eats. Spinach and parsley are OK as a rare "treat" for something different, but should not be fed regularly because they are high in goitrogens, which impair thyroid function when fed in excess. Arugula is good, but as with the Romaine, shouldn't be the only thing they eat.
> 
> My Greek's main food source is spring mix salad (a mix of green and red romaine lettuce, red and green oak lettuce, tango, lolla rossa, red and green leaf lettuce, mizuna, arugula, tatsoi, mache, red and green chard, endive, and raddichio) since it is readily available in every grocery market, is inexpensive, and automatically provides a nice variety of foods. Once in a while it has spinach as well so I watch for that and pick some of it out if there is a lot, but otherwise I just grab a handful and let her chow down. I also mix in zucchini squash, prickly pear cactus fruit and pads, rose leaves, dandelions, clover, and (very rarely) some strawberry stems/leaves as a special treat.
> 
> The main thing is to make sure they have a good variety of foods so they can get all of the nutrients that they need in order to stay healthy and happy.




i don't even know most of the items in that salad  , i tried zucchini and they refused to eat it , i will try the arugula and rose leaves "any kind??"
i'm not sure we have clover in Egypt


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## Akronic

are you in some BFE country where they dont have a super market and you can just buy spring mix salad in a bag.......those options you are presenting are really not the best choice.


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## egyptian and proud "mayar"

i tried coriander today and they refused to eat it , i will stick to Egyptian lettuce


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## Floof

Akronic said:


> are you in some BFE country where they dont have a super market and you can just buy spring mix salad in a bag.......those options you are presenting are really not the best choice.



I think the poster lives in Egypt... See his post just before yours-- "i'm not sure we have clover in *Egypt*"

Mayar, your tortoises NEED a better variety than just lettuce. At the very least, start giving arugula in addition to the lettuce so they have a little bit of variety. Otherwise, look around at your local markets and make a list of what greens you CAN get. All of them! Once you have a list, start going on websites like the one linked above (Russiantortoise.org) and this one: http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plant_database_14.asp to see whether the different greens are good ones to feed your tortoise. You can also use the Search function to search Tortoise Forum to find info on a particular green.

If you can't find information on a green on these lists or on this forum, then post a thread in the Diet and Food section (if it comes to this, pictures help a lot with figuring out what it is), or search the web for alternate names used for that green (for example, Arugula is also called Rocket in some areas/countries) and search the lists/forum for that name.

Find out the names of some of the native plants/weeds in your area, especially those growing in your yard or other areas that you KNOW are not treated with any kinds of chemicals (i.e. pesticides, herbicides), and do searches for those. Here in the USA, dandelions and plantain are two common garden weeds that are prolific through most the country. Many, many people will collect dandelions and other edible weeds from their yards and other safe areas to help feed their tortoises. I'm sure Egypt has a few similar native plants that you can do the same thing with, once you find out what there is and whether it's safe.

Some things to watch for that are good tortoise food: Collard greens, Turnip greens, Mustard greens, Endive, Escarole, DIFFERENT KINDS of lettuce (you should never feed only lettuce, but you can help make a good diet if you use a few different varieties of lettuce in addition to other, good greens), Arugula.

Look at the ingredients lists of pre-packaged salad mixes that you find to see if they are good for your tortoise. The Spring Mix everyone talks about here is a pre-packaged salad mix available in the USA. I believe one of the recommended salad mixes in the UK is called Rocket Salad or something to that effect. You should be able to find a pre-packaged salad there in Egypt that's good for your tortoise, you just have to look for one and read the ingredients lists very carefully.

If all else fails, you can try to grow your own greens and things for your tortoises. You can have planters indoors, in a sunny area of your house, to grow greens and things for your tortoises. For less commonly available greens and veggies, the seeds are often easier to find than the plant. It is easy to grow greens and veggies, whether you have a small yard space to work with, or just a big planter in your house or on your porch.

Sometimes it takes tough love to get them to eat what's right for them. If they refuse to eat anything but the lettuce, take away the lettuce until they do eat. Healthy, or at least mostly healthy, adult tortoises are fine without food for a few days or so. Tortoises are stubborn, and getting picky tortoise to eat new foods is more often than not a battle of wills.


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## egyptian and proud "mayar"

Floof said:


> Akronic said:
> 
> 
> 
> are you in some BFE country where they dont have a super market and you can just buy spring mix salad in a bag.......those options you are presenting are really not the best choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the poster lives in Egypt... See his post just before yours-- "i'm not sure we have clover in *Egypt*"
> 
> Mayar, your tortoises NEED a better variety than just lettuce. At the very least, start giving arugula in addition to the lettuce so they have a little bit of variety. Otherwise, look around at your local markets and make a list of what greens you CAN get. All of them! Once you have a list, start going on websites like the one linked above (Russiantortoise.org) and this one: http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plant_database_14.asp to see whether the different greens are good ones to feed your tortoise. You can also use the Search function to search Tortoise Forum to find info on a particular green.
> 
> If you can't find information on a green on these lists or on this forum, then post a thread in the Diet and Food section (if it comes to this, pictures help a lot with figuring out what it is), or search the web for alternate names used for that green (for example, Arugula is also called Rocket in some areas/countries) and search the lists/forum for that name.
> 
> Find out the names of some of the native plants/weeds in your area, especially those growing in your yard or other areas that you KNOW are not treated with any kinds of chemicals (i.e. pesticides, herbicides), and do searches for those. Here in the USA, dandelions and plantain are two common garden weeds that are prolific through most the country. Many, many people will collect dandelions and other edible weeds from their yards and other safe areas to help feed their tortoises. I'm sure Egypt has a few similar native plants that you can do the same thing with, once you find out what there is and whether it's safe.
> 
> Some things to watch for that are good tortoise food: Collard greens, Turnip greens, Mustard greens, Endive, Escarole, DIFFERENT KINDS of lettuce (you should never feed only lettuce, but you can help make a good diet if you use a few different varieties of lettuce in addition to other, good greens), Arugula.
> 
> Look at the ingredients lists of pre-packaged salad mixes that you find to see if they are good for your tortoise. The Spring Mix everyone talks about here is a pre-packaged salad mix available in the USA. I believe one of the recommended salad mixes in the UK is called Rocket Salad or something to that effect. You should be able to find a pre-packaged salad there in Egypt that's good for your tortoise, you just have to look for one and read the ingredients lists very carefully.
> 
> If all else fails, you can try to grow your own greens and things for your tortoises. You can have planters indoors, in a sunny area of your house, to grow greens and things for your tortoises. For less commonly available greens and veggies, the seeds are often easier to find than the plant. It is easy to grow greens and veggies, whether you have a small yard space to work with, or just a big planter in your house or on your porch.
> 
> Sometimes it takes tough love to get them to eat what's right for them. If they refuse to eat anything but the lettuce, take away the lettuce until they do eat. Healthy, or at least mostly healthy, adult tortoises are fine without food for a few days or so. Tortoises are stubborn, and getting picky tortoise to eat new foods is more often than not a battle of wills.
Click to expand...



we have hyper markets in here of course , we don't have this packed salad mix because no one would buy it here , we prefer the fresh local vegetables from the farmers , maybe i will post some pics of Egypt later . i guess you have a wrong idea , however , i tried arugula the male ate a little bit of it but the female refuses to eat anything except Egyptian lettuce , she is so stubborn and i can't just let her starve 
i live in the city so no yards , we live in flats 
we have dandelions in Egypt but it didn't grow yet .
we don't import clover since it is not that important
i will try to find anything healthier for my tortoises , people here are not very interested in tortoises they prefer cats and dogs , tortoises are just an ordinary creature here , i will try to post some photos here for the food i can get for them
and thank you akronic for what you said , it reveals who you really are


i will try cactus tomorrow , it is easy to get , hope she would eat it


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## Floof

egyptian and proud "mayar" said:


> (snip) i guess you have a wrong idea , however , i tried arugula the male ate a little bit of it but the female refuses to eat anything except Egyptian lettuce , she is so stubborn and i can't just let her starve (snip)
> 
> 
> i will try cactus tomorrow , it is easy to get , hope she would eat it





First, make sure the cactus you're getting is a safe one. There's hundreds of different species of cactus, and they are not all the same. The cactus we refer to here is prickly pear cactus, also known as Opuntia or Nopales. There are other good, safe cactuses, but there are also very toxic ones, so make sure the one you're getting is not toxic.

If it is being sold for human consumption, then it is probably safe. There are still other small issues to look into about produce, though, that can cause problems for tortoises, like the oxalic acid that makes spinach an inappropriate food as more than a treat, but the main thing is to make sure you're not poisoning your tortoises.

Anyway, to the first comment I quoted: TOUGH LOVE!!! You can't just offer a food ONCE, say "Oh, they didn't eat it, oh well!" and never try again. Tortoises are STUBBORN. They are used to lettuce, which tastes "good" to them. They WILL often refuse to eat new-to-them foods, and it is up to YOU to get them to realize that the new food is healthy for them.

TAKE AWAY THE LETTUCE. Only offer Arugula and other _healthy_ greens. Don't give them back the lettuce until they start eating the arugula or whatever other healthier food willingly. A healthy adult tortoise can go without food for a full week, denying lettuce for a few days or so to get them eating something HEALTHIER will not kill them.

After they give in and start eating the Arugula, you can start re-introducing the lettuce SLOWLY. Not all at once, and not as much as you used to give them. If you just give them a giant pile of lettuce the day after they finally eat the good stuff, they'll go right back to their old routine.

After they're consistently eating the good stuff for around a week, start adding small amounts of lettuce. You still want to balance their diet, so you want a mix of greens not just one, but you don't want to give them the choice to go right back to eating only lettuce.

Reptiles are STUBBORN. To give you an idea of just how stubborn they can be: I fought (and won, finally!) with my bearded dragon lizard for 3 *years* to get him to take any salad at all (they are omnivores, and supposed to eat mostly salad as adults). Getting a tortoise to eat a bigger variety of greens will be a hundred times easier than my war with the Dragon, but it's the same exact concept. The way you win a war against a stubborn reptile is to be stubborn yourself! It comes down to a battle of WILLS. Who can hold out the longest before giving in. You WILL NOT win if you give in after ONE DAY.

The fact of the matter is, your tortoises will NOT be healthy if you only feed them lettuce. Also a fact, your tortoises will most likely NOT start to eat other, less appealing but HEALTHIER greens unless you withhold their precious lettuce. For your tortoises' sake, please start showing them some tough love. Stop giving up after the first try!

Okay--rant done--the other thing I was going to say was about growing plants. That really sucks that you have no yard, I'm sorry to hear that. Yards are so nice to have. But do you have space in your flat, near a sunny window, where you could put a few big planters? Like I said in my last post, it is an option to grow your own greens inside the house. You don't need a yard to grow plants, just a big enough planter in a sunny area of your flat. Or even just a big enough planter with grow lights over it, if you don't have any nice sunny spots in the house.


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## egyptian and proud "mayar"

we own another villa , but we don't live in it the whole time , i can make my father plant something for them
but i don't see that it is so important since i can buy the vegetables from the farmers , and about the cactus that is the type i can give them


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## Floof

On the cactus--Good, Opuntia cactus is very good for them.

On growing plants-- The reason I suggested it is because, from what you've told us so far, the selection of good, tortoise-healthy greens where you are is very slim. You've told us you can get lettuce, arugula, parsley, coriander, and spinach, if I remember correctly, and made it sound like those are your ONLY options (sorry if that was a misunderstanding). Only two of those (lettuce and arugula) are good as staples in the diet, but you need a lot more variety than just 2 or 3 plants to keep your tortoises healthy.

If you cannot purchase things like Turnip greens, Collard greens, Dandelion greens, Endive, Mustard greens, etc from local farmers, then your best bet is to grow them yourself so you can provide a good, varied diet for your tortoises.

You've said there are dandelions in Egypt. And collard greens are a very common ingredient in many dishes, so, in theory, they shouldn't be too exotic to find. As far as Turnip Greens, all you need to do is find someone who grows turnips and ask for the leaves (greens). You can do the same if you know someone who grows radishes... The radish leaves (not necessarily the radishes themselves) are good to give, as part of a larger, varied diet.


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## egyptian and proud "mayar"

Floof said:


> On the cactus--Good, Opuntia cactus is very good for them.
> 
> On growing plants-- The reason I suggested it is because, from what you've told us so far, the selection of good, tortoise-healthy greens where you are is very slim. You've told us you can get lettuce, arugula, parsley, coriander, and spinach, if I remember correctly, and made it sound like those are your ONLY options (sorry if that was a misunderstanding). Only two of those (lettuce and arugula) are good as staples in the diet, but you need a lot more variety than just 2 or 3 plants to keep your tortoises healthy.
> 
> If you cannot purchase things like Turnip greens, Collard greens, Dandelion greens, Endive, Mustard greens, etc from local farmers, then your best bet is to grow them yourself so you can provide a good, varied diet for your tortoises.
> 
> You've said there are dandelions in Egypt. And collard greens are a very common ingredient in many dishes, so, in theory, they shouldn't be too exotic to find. As far as Turnip Greens, all you need to do is find someone who grows turnips and ask for the leaves (greens). You can do the same if you know someone who grows radishes... The radish leaves (not necessarily the radishes themselves) are good to give, as part of a larger, varied diet.



turnip is very popular and common here so i can get it for them , but not the collard , i can get them cabbage instead .
we don't use mustard greens in our food so it would be hard to find it here 
and i didn't see endive in Egypt before , so i'm not sure it is available here , we don't use this ingredients in our food so i guess farmers are not interested in planting them
i can feed them grape leaves if it is suitable for them , it is a local food here  and we all love it
and thank you for replying 



egyptian and proud "mayar" said:


> Floof said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the cactus--Good, Opuntia cactus is very good for them.
> 
> On growing plants-- The reason I suggested it is because, from what you've told us so far, the selection of good, tortoise-healthy greens where you are is very slim. You've told us you can get lettuce, arugula, parsley, coriander, and spinach, if I remember correctly, and made it sound like those are your ONLY options (sorry if that was a misunderstanding). Only two of those (lettuce and arugula) are good as staples in the diet, but you need a lot more variety than just 2 or 3 plants to keep your tortoises healthy.
> 
> If you cannot purchase things like Turnip greens, Collard greens, Dandelion greens, Endive, Mustard greens, etc from local farmers, then your best bet is to grow them yourself so you can provide a good, varied diet for your tortoises.
> 
> You've said there are dandelions in Egypt. And collard greens are a very common ingredient in many dishes, so, in theory, they shouldn't be too exotic to find. As far as Turnip Greens, all you need to do is find someone who grows turnips and ask for the leaves (greens). You can do the same if you know someone who grows radishes... The radish leaves (not necessarily the radishes themselves) are good to give, as part of a larger, varied diet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> turnip is very popular and common here so i can get it for them , but not the collard , i can get them cabbage instead .
> we don't use mustard greens in our food so it would be hard to find it here
> and i didn't see endive in Egypt before , so i'm not sure it is available here , we don't use this ingredients in our food so i guess farmers are not interested in planting them
> i can feed them grape leaves if it is suitable for them , it is a local food here  and we all love it
> and thank you for replying
Click to expand...



i wanted to post some photos for Egypt here , but i guess it is not the suitable forum for doing that so if any one is interested in seeing egypt you can use this words in google photo search " hurghada - aswan - alexandria "where i live  - cairo - porto marina " those are some of our cities
and you can look for carrefour egypt for hypermarkets  lol


and we have molokhia too "i don't know if you know it or not" but it is an Egyptian plant


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## Floof

Cabbage isn't very good for them. It has the same problems as spinach, high in goitrogens and oxalates. A bit here and there won't hurt, but it shouldn't be a big part of their diet.

Grape leaves are great! And it's good that you can get turnip greens, they are great tortoise food.

If I remember correctly, Endive, as well as a few other tortoise-friendly greens (Escarole, Radicchio) are varieties of Chicory, which is generally good tortoise food. Maybe one or a few of those are used under the name Chicory there?

I have never heard of molokhia, and it doesn't look like it goes under a different common name here in the states, so I don't know if that is safe for your tortoises.

Actually, there is a forum here for your pictures of Egypt. The "All Other Photos" forum, toward the bottom of the main forum list, is specially for posting non-tortoise related photos.


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## egyptian and proud "mayar"

Floof said:


> Cabbage isn't very good for them. It has the same problems as spinach, high in goitrogens and oxalates. A bit here and there won't hurt, but it shouldn't be a big part of their diet.
> 
> Grape leaves are great! And it's good that you can get turnip greens, they are great tortoise food.
> 
> If I remember correctly, Endive, as well as a few other tortoise-friendly greens (Escarole, Radicchio) are varieties of Chicory, which is generally good tortoise food. Maybe one or a few of those are used under the name Chicory there?
> 
> I have never heard of molokhia, and it doesn't look like it goes under a different common name here in the states, so I don't know if that is safe for your tortoises.
> 
> Actually, there is a forum here for your pictures of Egypt. The "All Other Photos" forum, toward the bottom of the main forum list, is specially for posting non-tortoise related photos.



i fed my tortoises cactus 5 mins ago , the both ate it and it is a miracle , my girl never eats anything but lettuce so i'm impressed but they didn't eat much of it not even half the quantity they eat when i offer lettuce
molokhia is a very delicious vegetable , i LOVE it , i don't think you have it in the states , Japanese began to eat it lately , it is very healthy for human but i don't know what about tortoises . 
i will look for the chicory , i know it but it will be a little bit hard to get a fresh one
and there is something else , i heard that tortoises can eat flowers , so i wander if this flower is suitable for them 


and i will post some photos for Egypt now


----------



## Floof

Oh good! That's definitely a good start. And don't forget, when you try Arugula and other things again, don't give up after the first try. Withhold their lettuce until they eat the new stuff. They won't starve themselves, and they'll be so much better off once they're eating a varied diet instead of just lettuce.

Yes, tortoises can eat some flowers, and usually the leaves of the plant, too. Hibiscus and Rose are a couple very notable ones, just make sure they haven't been treated with any chemicals (pesticides, fertilizer, etc). They also like squash blooms. Squash blooms are sold and eaten as a delicacy in some places, maybe you can find it for sale there? Otherwise, find a farmer who grows squash and ask if he's willing to sell some of his extra squash blooms.

Flowers are more of a treat, not something to give as a large part of their diet, but it will help you to give them a more varied diet while you find more appropriate greens.

I don't recognize that flower, do you have any pictures of the whole plant?

Also, you can look at the link I posted earlier to find more edible plants and flowers. Here's that link again: http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plant_database_14.asp The plant database has information on many different plants, including house plants, wild plants, etc. Great resource.


----------



## egyptian and proud "mayar"

Floof said:


> Oh good! That's definitely a good start. And don't forget, when you try Arugula and other things again, don't give up after the first try. Withhold their lettuce until they eat the new stuff. They won't starve themselves, and they'll be so much better off once they're eating a varied diet instead of just lettuce.
> 
> Yes, tortoises can eat some flowers, and usually the leaves of the plant, too. Hibiscus and Rose are a couple very notable ones, just make sure they haven't been treated with any chemicals (pesticides, fertilizer, etc). They also like squash blooms. Squash blooms are sold and eaten as a delicacy in some places, maybe you can find it for sale there? Otherwise, find a farmer who grows squash and ask if he's willing to sell some of his extra squash blooms.
> 
> Flowers are more of a treat, not something to give as a large part of their diet, but it will help you to give them a more varied diet while you find more appropriate greens.
> 
> I don't recognize that flower, do you have any pictures of the whole plant?
> i knew its name , it is petunias
> 
> Also, you can look at the link I posted earlier to find more edible plants and flowers. Here's that link again: http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plant_database_14.asp The plant database has information on many different plants, including house plants, wild plants, etc. Great resource.



you've been very helpful , thank you 
and about the flower i got that pic from the internet , it is the one i have
and about the cactus , about 10 thorns hurt my hand , and i couldn't remove all of it from the cactus yet , will it harm the tortoises??
and the cactus make them sleepy , the sleep right after eating it


----------



## Floof

The flowers look like Petunias? In which case they are OK as a treat, again, as long as they haven't been treated with any chemicals. 

I've seen people on here say they burn the spines off their cactus. If you hold it over (not in) a flame, then the spines should burn off. I've never tried that... Usually I go in and cut out the spines with a knife. But I also get mine at the grocery store, and they're usually pretty well de-spined by the time they get to the stores here. A few little spines here and there shouldn't hurt your tortoises, but you do want to get off as many as possible, especially the big ones.

And, you're welcome! I'm glad I could be of help!


----------



## egyptian and proud "mayar"

it is fine for the tortoises , i looked in the site you gave me , i will try to fed them this one and will see if they will eat it


----------



## MarcaineArt

egyptian and proud "mayar" said:


> Floof said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the cactus--Good, Opuntia cactus is very good for them.
> 
> On growing plants-- The reason I suggested it is because, from what you've told us so far, the selection of good, tortoise-healthy greens where you are is very slim. You've told us you can get lettuce, arugula, parsley, coriander, and spinach, if I remember correctly, and made it sound like those are your ONLY options (sorry if that was a misunderstanding). Only two of those (lettuce and arugula) are good as staples in the diet, but you need a lot more variety than just 2 or 3 plants to keep your tortoises healthy.
> 
> If you cannot purchase things like Turnip greens, Collard greens, Dandelion greens, Endive, Mustard greens, etc from local farmers, then your best bet is to grow them yourself so you can provide a good, varied diet for your tortoises.
> 
> You've said there are dandelions in Egypt. And collard greens are a very common ingredient in many dishes, so, in theory, they shouldn't be too exotic to find. As far as Turnip Greens, all you need to do is find someone who grows turnips and ask for the leaves (greens). You can do the same if you know someone who grows radishes... The radish leaves (not necessarily the radishes themselves) are good to give, as part of a larger, varied diet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> turnip is very popular and common here so i can get it for them , but not the collard , i can get them cabbage instead .
> we don't use mustard greens in our food so it would be hard to find it here
> and i didn't see endive in Egypt before , so i'm not sure it is available here , we don't use this ingredients in our food so i guess farmers are not interested in planting them
> i can feed them grape leaves if it is suitable for them , it is a local food here  and we all love it
> and thank you for replying
> 
> 
> 
> egyptian and proud "mayar" said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Floof said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the cactus--Good, Opuntia cactus is very good for them.
> 
> On growing plants-- The reason I suggested it is because, from what you've told us so far, the selection of good, tortoise-healthy greens where you are is very slim. You've told us you can get lettuce, arugula, parsley, coriander, and spinach, if I remember correctly, and made it sound like those are your ONLY options (sorry if that was a misunderstanding). Only two of those (lettuce and arugula) are good as staples in the diet, but you need a lot more variety than just 2 or 3 plants to keep your tortoises healthy.
> 
> If you cannot purchase things like Turnip greens, Collard greens, Dandelion greens, Endive, Mustard greens, etc from local farmers, then your best bet is to grow them yourself so you can provide a good, varied diet for your tortoises.
> 
> You've said there are dandelions in Egypt. And collard greens are a very common ingredient in many dishes, so, in theory, they shouldn't be too exotic to find. As far as Turnip Greens, all you need to do is find someone who grows turnips and ask for the leaves (greens). You can do the same if you know someone who grows radishes... The radish leaves (not necessarily the radishes themselves) are good to give, as part of a larger, varied diet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> turnip is very popular and common here so i can get it for them , but not the collard , i can get them cabbage instead .
> we don't use mustard greens in our food so it would be hard to find it here
> and i didn't see endive in Egypt before , so i'm not sure it is available here , we don't use this ingredients in our food so i guess farmers are not interested in planting them
> i can feed them grape leaves if it is suitable for them , it is a local food here  and we all love it
> and thank you for replying
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> i wanted to post some photos for Egypt here , but i guess it is not the suitable forum for doing that so if any one is interested in seeing egypt you can use this words in google photo search " hurghada - aswan - alexandria "where i live  - cairo - porto marina " those are some of our cities
> and you can look for carrefour egypt for hypermarkets  lol
> 
> 
> and we have molokhia too "i don't know if you know it or not" but it is an Egyptian plant
Click to expand...





Maybe you could get the variety of things that you do not use in your cooking by asking the farmers for the cut offs. You know if people eat the vegetable but not the greens the farmers must cut them off so people don't buy something they wouldn't eat. If they just throw these away maybe they would bring some to the market for you for free or I bet they would be thrilled to get a little bit of money for the things they throw away.


----------



## Floof

MarcaineArt said:


> Maybe you could get the variety of things that you do not use in your cooking by asking the farmers for the cut offs. You know if people eat the vegetable but not the greens the farmers must cut them off so people don't buy something they wouldn't eat. If they just throw these away maybe they would bring some to the market for you for free or I bet they would be thrilled to get a little bit of money for the things they throw away.



Exactly. This is probably going to be the best way to get your hands on Turnip greens, if turnips are popular in your country. Squash blooms, too, if you can find a farmer with an overabundance. You can also look into radish tops (leaves) if radishes are pretty common around there, they make a good addition to your tortoises' diet, too.

Also, I forgot in my last post. You mentioned Collards and Mustard greens are not commonly used in Egypt and therefore hard to find? That's exactly what I was talking about when I suggested growing your own earlier. Even though you can't find the actual plants at produce markets, you should at least be able to find the seeds, then you can grow them yourself to give to your tortoises.


----------



## egyptian and proud "mayar"

i don't know who can i get the seeds , i don't even know what they are called in Arabic  , i will try to see some pictures for those vegetables .
my male tortoise ate the flower , he liked it a looooot 
i will try to buy some turnip greens and we of course have radish tops here , and i already offered some to them but they refused to eat it  , i will give it another try later
i will try to give them some , i hope they will always be healthy and bring some cutie baby tortoises 

i was searching for hibiscus and found this flower , is that what you mean by hibiscus???? i can get them tons of that . it is the most commen flower here everhttp://www.google.com.eg/imgres?um=...8&start=50&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:24,s:50,i:294


----------



## Floof

Again, tough love.If they refuse to eat the new food, take away their lettuce until they do. Just keep offering fresh radish tops, arugula, or whatever it is you're trying every day. They won't starve themselves, and it's really sounding like taking away the lettuce completely is the only way you're going to be able to get them to start eating new foods.

I'm glad you're trying to get them on a proper diet.  As long as you're taking care of them right, they will probably breed for you eventually! Remember to make sure they have a big enough enclosure, proper substrate (bedding), fresh water at all times, the proper UVB lighting, proper temperatures, and at least one area of nice, deep dirt for the female to lay eggs in, if they do breed! If you haven't already, you can post a new topic down in the Enclosures section of your tortoises' home and we can help you figure out if you're doing things right, and what needs to be changed/improved.


----------



## egyptian and proud "mayar"

egyptian and proud "mayar" said:


> i don't know who can i get the seeds , i don't even know what they are called in Arabic  , i will try to see some pictures for those vegetables .
> my male tortoise ate the flower , he liked it a looooot
> i will try to buy some turnip greens and we of course have radish tops here , and i already offered some to them but they refused to eat it  , i will give it another try later
> i will try to give them some , i hope they will always be healthy and bring some cutie baby tortoises
> 
> i was searching for hibiscus and found this flower , is that what you mean by hibiscus???? i can get them tons of that . it is the most commen flower here everhttp://www.google.com.eg/imgres?um=...8&start=50&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:24,s:50,i:294





i thought the hibiscus was the roselle  that is why i thought that i can't get fresh ones

and i used to fed them bamia , i guess you call it okra . but they didn't eat much of it so i stopped giving it to them

my mom will think that i got out of my mind if i offered all of that care to my tortoise , as i said before tortoises are not so important creatures here unfortunately and we don't even have shops which sell the tortoises supplies , the only kind of tortoises which get some care here is the Egyptian tortoises because they are about to extinct , and we don't even rise it at homes because it is illegal "in fact some don't care about laws and do raise it at their homes" . i will do my best to offer a suitable life for my tortoises but i'm sure that non of my family will let me get them the Enclosures and the incubators .


----------



## Floof

Sorry, I missed that part of your post. Yes, that looks like hibiscus. You can feed them both the flowers and the leaves.


----------



## egyptian and proud "mayar"

Floof said:


> Sorry, I missed that part of your post. Yes, that looks like hibiscus. You can feed them both the flowers and the leaves.



nice


----------



## Floof

egyptian and proud "mayar" said:


> my mom will think that i got out of my mind if i offered all of that care to my tortoise , as i said before tortoises are not so important creatures here unfortunately and we don't even have shops which sell the tortoises supplies , the only kind of tortoises which get some care here is the Egyptian tortoises because they are about to extinct , and we don't even rise it at homes because it is illegal "in fact some don't care about laws and do raise it at their homes" . i will do my best to offer a suitable life for my tortoises but i'm sure that non of my family will let me get them the Enclosures and the incubators .



Unfortunately a large enough enclosure and things like that are vital for tortoises, especially if you want them to breed. Can you sit down with your mom and try to explain to her why they're important to you, and try to get her to see from your perspective why these things are needed?

Especially UVB lighting, that is absolutely vital to keeping tortoises healthy. Without UVB (or lots of time in natural sunlight), they cannot process calcium. If they cannot process calcium, they become extremely calcium deficient, which can be deadly. Calcium is necessary for the body to function, and not just for bone health. Without proper calcium, a breeding female can't form proper eggs. There is a disease called Metabolic Bone disease, or MBD, where the body steals calcium from the bones. It is fatal if not caught and treated in time, and, as far as I know, cannot be reversed. A couple signs of extremely severe MBD are for your tortoises to develop a soft shell and start having seizures. At that point, without the intervention of an experienced vet or reptile rehabilitator, it is generally too late.

If you show us your enclosure and help us understand the situation a bit better (in a new thread), then we should be able to help you come up with solutions that, hopefully, are more agreeable to your parents and good for your tortoises.

For example, you can build your own enclosure for the tortoises at home, instead of spending a lot of money on a large pre-made one. It's not very hard to do. Basically, you're making a very large plywood box and making it water proof (which can be as easy as lining it with a tarp). You can even convert a large bookcase to be a tortoise enclosure, though you would need to modify it to be deep enough for the female's egg laying areas. You can find great ideas on how to build your own tortoise enclosure from scratch or by converting something else down in the Enclosures forum.

Until you can get a proper UVB bulb, you can take them outside and let them bask in direct sunlight a few hours a day. They don't necessarily have to be running around on grass, as long as you have a cool, shady spot for them to hide and can keep a close eye on them, even your front porch would work. A local park would work, if you can make sure the city doesn't treat the park with pesticides and other chemicals.

You said your family has a villa with a yard? Can you build an outdoor enclosure there for the tortoises for when you go there? Outdoor enclosures are easy to make. You need to make it secure, so they can't dig or climb out, and so that predators can't get in. A top with chicken wire works wonderfully, it keeps predators out while still letting the sunlight through. It needs to have a water dish or two, depending on how big it is, and lots of shade, hiding places, and yummy things to eat. Basically, living plants. Things like hibiscus, collard greens, turnips, dandelions, and other edible plants and flowers are wonderful, plus the bigger ones like hibiscus shrubs provide great hiding places and shade. You can find great ideas on how to make a good outdoor enclosure in the Enclosure forum, too.

Do you have a basking bulb for them so they can get to the proper temperature? Do you have thermometers? If you don't have either of these, then you can find lamps at hardware stores (where you would buy wood, screws, etc to make your tortoise enclosure). Here in the states, they are sold as "Brooder lamps." I don't know what the name would be there, but they are used to keep baby chickens warm. They look like this: http://www.poultryhelp.com/brooders2.jpg

And you can use digital household thermometers to monitor your temperatures, the ones that sit in the house and have a sensor that sits outside to tell you what temperature it is outside? They are excellent. You can put the outdoor sensor on or next to the basking spot and the indoor unit on the cool side to watch your temperatures. They usually look something like this (thermometer with a wired probe): http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/50...door_Thermometer_digital_thermometer_room.jpg or this (thermometer with a wireless sensor): http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/partshelf/ps-00604Large.jpg If nothing else, you can order them online for not too much. Most have a switch so you can put them in Fahrenheit or Celsius, whichever you prefer.

As far as their substrate is concerned, you can try to find organic garden soil or really plain top soil, basically dirt with no chemicals in it. Make sure it doesn't have perlite (little white pieces) in it because tortoises like to eat them but they can't digest them.

The incubator, if you ever get eggs, might be a problem, but we'll worry about that when we have everything else figured out. They aren't going to breed if their care isn't right, so there shouldn't be eggs to incubate until you get everything else figured out, anyway.


----------



## egyptian and proud "mayar"

Floof said:


> egyptian and proud "mayar" said:
> 
> 
> 
> my mom will think that i got out of my mind if i offered all of that care to my tortoise , as i said before tortoises are not so important creatures here unfortunately and we don't even have shops which sell the tortoises supplies , the only kind of tortoises which get some care here is the Egyptian tortoises because they are about to extinct , and we don't even rise it at homes because it is illegal "in fact some don't care about laws and do raise it at their homes" . i will do my best to offer a suitable life for my tortoises but i'm sure that non of my family will let me get them the Enclosures and the incubators .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately a large enough enclosure and things like that are vital for tortoises, especially if you want them to breed. Can you sit down with your mom and try to explain to her why they're important to you, and try to get her to see from your perspective why these things are needed?
> 
> Especially UVB lighting, that is absolutely vital to keeping tortoises healthy. Without UVB (or lots of time in natural sunlight), they cannot process calcium. If they cannot process calcium, they become extremely calcium deficient, which can be deadly. Calcium is necessary for the body to function, and not just for bone health. Without proper calcium, a breeding female can't form proper eggs. There is a disease called Metabolic Bone disease, or MBD, where the body steals calcium from the bones. It is fatal if not caught and treated in time, and, as far as I know, cannot be reversed. A couple signs of extremely severe MBD are for your tortoises to develop a soft shell and start having seizures. At that point, without the intervention of an experienced vet or reptile rehabilitator, it is generally too late.
> 
> If you show us your enclosure and help us understand the situation a bit better (in a new thread), then we should be able to help you come up with solutions that, hopefully, are more agreeable to your parents and good for your tortoises.
> 
> For example, you can build your own enclosure for the tortoises at home, instead of spending a lot of money on a large pre-made one. It's not very hard to do. Basically, you're making a very large plywood box and making it water proof (which can be as easy as lining it with a tarp). You can even convert a large bookcase to be a tortoise enclosure, though you would need to modify it to be deep enough for the female's egg laying areas. You can find great ideas on how to build your own tortoise enclosure from scratch or by converting something else down in the Enclosures forum.
> 
> Until you can get a proper UVB bulb, you can take them outside and let them bask in direct sunlight a few hours a day. They don't necessarily have to be running around on grass, as long as you have a cool, shady spot for them to hide and can keep a close eye on them, even your front porch would work. A local park would work, if you can make sure the city doesn't treat the park with pesticides and other chemicals.
> 
> You said your family has a villa with a yard? Can you build an outdoor enclosure there for the tortoises for when you go there? Outdoor enclosures are easy to make. You need to make it secure, so they can't dig or climb out, and so that predators can't get in. A top with chicken wire works wonderfully, it keeps predators out while still letting the sunlight through. It needs to have a water dish or two, depending on how big it is, and lots of shade, hiding places, and yummy things to eat. Basically, living plants. Things like hibiscus, collard greens, turnips, dandelions, and other edible plants and flowers are wonderful, plus the bigger ones like hibiscus shrubs provide great hiding places and shade. You can find great ideas on how to make a good outdoor enclosure in the Enclosure forum, too.
> 
> Do you have a basking bulb for them so they can get to the proper temperature? Do you have thermometers? If you don't have either of these, then you can find lamps at hardware stores (where you would buy wood, screws, etc to make your tortoise enclosure). Here in the states, they are sold as "Brooder lamps." I don't know what the name would be there, but they are used to keep baby chickens warm. They look like this: http://www.poultryhelp.com/brooders2.jpg
> 
> And you can use digital household thermometers to monitor your temperatures, the ones that sit in the house and have a sensor that sits outside to tell you what temperature it is outside? They are excellent. You can put the outdoor sensor on or next to the basking spot and the indoor unit on the cool side to watch your temperatures. They usually look something like this (thermometer with a wired probe): http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/50...door_Thermometer_digital_thermometer_room.jpg or this (thermometer with a wireless sensor): http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/partshelf/ps-00604Large.jpg If nothing else, you can order them online for not too much. Most have a switch so you can put them in Fahrenheit or Celsius, whichever you prefer.
> 
> As far as their substrate is concerned, you can try to find organic garden soil or really plain top soil, basically dirt with no chemicals in it. Make sure it doesn't have perlite (little white pieces) in it because tortoises like to eat them but they can't digest them.
> 
> The incubator, if you ever get eggs, might be a problem, but we'll worry about that when we have everything else figured out. They aren't going to breed if their care isn't right, so there shouldn't be eggs to incubate until you get everything else figured out, anyway.
Click to expand...




i don't have an enclosure it is just a cartoon box , i change it every month or though , and about the bulb i have this one i don't know if it is suitable or what? http://www.google.com.eg/imgres?um=...&w=245&h=245&ei=1aK2T-XgIYfYsgah_9neBw&zoom=1


it is hard to get them outside as i go to the collage regularly but i can do that in summer , i'm afraid to put them in the porch since something eat my friend's tortoise "her head and legs" and i don't want that to happen to my tortoises
i know that it might be normal where you live to give tortoises this much of care , but where i live even some humans can't have the care they need , so the first thing i will hear that i'm ridiculous 
my family suggested to move the tortoises to the villa but i don't live there and it is far away and i don't want to leave my tortoises
Egypt is not very cold , it is about 25 degree this days so i guess the temperature is okay for them 
i intend to get them some soil and i discussed that with my family and they finally agreed "but not happy of course" .


----------



## Floof

If you can get your hands on cheap wood and screws, or even an old free bookcase, a better enclosure is very easy to make. See what you can get your hands on. An indoor tortoise enclosure can be as simple as a big wooden box with a tarp to keep the wood from rotting.

Here's how easy making an enclosure can be... Get a big free bookcase (a couple meters tall, preferably), lay it on its back, line it with some kind of cheap plastic liner (tarp, shower curtain, etc), add dirt. Very easy, and not very expensive, either.

Is that a household bulb, or was it sold as a UVB bulb? Either way, no, it isn't suitable. They do not put off heat, and the compact fluorescent (spiral-shaped) UVB bulbs can seriously damage tortoise's eyes. For heat, you can use an incandescent household lightbulb, like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...hlampe_01_KMJ.png/200px-Gluehlampe_01_KMJ.png Start with 60 or 75 watts and go from there, but you WILL need a thermometer to make sure their basking spot (right under the bulb) is the right temperature.

You want their basking spot to be around 35*C, but they also need an area that is room temperature (around 22-25*C) so they can cool off.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend's tortoise! Predators are definitely something to remember when you have your tortoises outside. If you're going to have them outside, either have them in something with a wire lid so predators (dogs and the like) can't get in, or sit outside and watch them when they're out.

Even here, a lot of people have trouble believing that tortoises need more than a tiny aquarium and some lettuce, but, you're right, people in the states are generally more used to giving their animals better care. A couple arguments to remember are that tortoises make good companions, and that they can outlive most humans! So they most certainly aren't a throw-away pet, and deserve the right care.

I agree, moving them to the villa where you can't interact and take care of them would kind of defeat the purpose of having them. But, it would be wonderful to have a nice outdoor enclosure for them there, for when you will be there.


----------



## egyptian and proud "mayar"

Floof said:


> If you can get your hands on cheap wood and screws, or even an old free bookcase, a better enclosure is very easy to make. See what you can get your hands on. An indoor tortoise enclosure can be as simple as a big wooden box with a tarp to keep the wood from rotting.
> 
> Here's how easy making an enclosure can be... Get a big free bookcase (a couple meters tall, preferably), lay it on its back, line it with some kind of cheap plastic liner (tarp, shower curtain, etc), add dirt. Very easy, and not very expensive, either.
> 
> Is that a household bulb, or was it sold as a UVB bulb? Either way, no, it isn't suitable. They do not put off heat, and the compact fluorescent (spiral-shaped) UVB bulbs can seriously damage tortoise's eyes. For heat, you can use an incandescent household lightbulb, like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...hlampe_01_KMJ.png/200px-Gluehlampe_01_KMJ.png Start with 60 or 75 watts and go from there, but you WILL need a thermometer to make sure their basking spot (right under the bulb) is the right temperature.
> 
> You want their basking spot to be around 35*C, but they also need an area that is room temperature (around 22-25*C) so they can cool off.
> 
> I'm sorry to hear about your friend's tortoise! Predators are definitely something to remember when you have your tortoises outside. If you're going to have them outside, either have them in something with a wire lid so predators (dogs and the like) can't get in, or sit outside and watch them when they're out.
> 
> Even here, a lot of people have trouble believing that tortoises need more than a tiny aquarium and some lettuce, but, you're right, people in the states are generally more used to giving their animals better care. A couple arguments to remember are that tortoises make good companions, and that they can outlive most humans! So they most certainly aren't a throw-away pet, and deserve the right care.
> 
> I agree, moving them to the villa where you can't interact and take care of them would kind of defeat the purpose of having them. But, it would be wonderful to have a nice outdoor enclosure for them there, for when you will be there.




i asked for the uvb bulb and they said that it is the one i posted , we have some of the incandescent household lightbulb , so it wont be a problem
and is the cartoon box harmful for them?


----------



## Floof

Ok, so that is a UVB bulb? I'm sorry to say that style of UVB bulb can be quite harmful to tortoises, though. It can cause severe eye infection, among other problems. There is at least one member here who had a tortoise die because of the damage from its compact fluorescent UVB bulb. For your UVB bulb, you want one made in the style of a tube (long, straight) fluorescent, or what is called a Mercury Vapor Bulb, which looks like a big incandescent spot light. Arcadia is a brand of fluorescent UVB commonly available in the UK, that I keep hearing is a really good bulb. Here in the states, the favorite brands seem to be ReptiSun (fluorescent) and PowerSun (mercury vapor) by Zoo Med. I don't know whether any of those are available in Egypt, but it's something to look into...

Otherwise, yes, an incandescent bulb will be much more important than the uvb right now. You can make up for the UVB by taking them outside in the sun whenever you have time, but they need to have the right temperatures at all times, especially when they're inside for most of the day.

I assume a cartoon box is the same as a cardboard box? It's not necessarily harmful, it's just that I've never seen one big enough to house a tortoise (you need an enclosure that is at least 2 meters [6 feet] long to comfortably house 2 tortoises), and they're quite flimsy, especially when you start putting moist soil in it for them. If you can find one that's big enough and line it with plastic or something so the water from the soil doesn't seep through and ruin the box, then a cardboard/cartoon box can work fine. Wood boxes, if you can build one, are much sturdier and don't have to be replaced all the time, plus you can make them as big as you want.


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## egyptian and proud "mayar"

Floof said:


> Ok, so that is a UVB bulb? I'm sorry to say that style of UVB bulb can be quite harmful to tortoises, though. It can cause severe eye infection, among other problems. There is at least one member here who had a tortoise die because of the damage from its compact fluorescent UVB bulb. For your UVB bulb, you want one made in the style of a tube (long, straight) fluorescent, or what is called a Mercury Vapor Bulb, which looks like a big incandescent spot light. Arcadia is a brand of fluorescent UVB commonly available in the UK, that I keep hearing is a really good bulb. Here in the states, the favorite brands seem to be ReptiSun (fluorescent) and PowerSun (mercury vapor) by Zoo Med. I don't know whether any of those are available in Egypt, but it's something to look into...
> 
> Otherwise, yes, an incandescent bulb will be much more important than the uvb right now. You can make up for the UVB by taking them outside in the sun whenever you have time, but they need to have the right temperatures at all times, especially when they're inside for most of the day.
> 
> I assume a cartoon box is the same as a cardboard box? It's not necessarily harmful, it's just that I've never seen one big enough to house a tortoise (you need an enclosure that is at least 2 meters [6 feet] long to comfortably house 2 tortoises), and they're quite flimsy, especially when you start putting moist soil in it for them. If you can find one that's big enough and line it with plastic or something so the water from the soil doesn't seep through and ruin the box, then a cardboard/cartoon box can work fine. Wood boxes, if you can build one, are much sturdier and don't have to be replaced all the time, plus you can make them as big as you want.




the box i have is not that big , we don't have empty place in our flat to put such a big box , the box i have is like 70*70 cm .
i will try to take them out for some time
but they there is something more important now which is that they are starving and they are not eating the cactus anymore , i feel like i'm torturing them   they must hate me now


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## Michael Bird

70cm square? Wow, that's not even big enough for a single hatchling. Four of those together is about the minimum amount of space you'd need for a single greek adult, and even that is too small. You need at least ten times that much space for two adults, and they're still going to fight over territory and the male is going to harass the female all the time since there's no room for her to get away from him.


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## Floof

I'm thinking part of the food problem might be the temperatures... Definitely get an incandescent bulb over them to give them a basking spot. And definitely get a thermometer so you can know what the temperature is on the basking spot. 70x70 cm isn't as bad as I was imagining, at least... You should be able to put the lamp over one corner and it will leave enough room for them to cool off on the other side.

As far as finding space for something so big, take a look at the Enclosures section. There are a lot of really creative ideas there for building an enclosure to suit your tortoise and your space. You can do different things like making it shorter but wider (like, 1.2 meters by 1.2 meters instead of 2 meters by .6 meters) and even making a two-level enclosure. 

Michael is right... Even the 2 meters I'm recommending is, really, too small. Normally I recommend 2 meters by .6 meters as a minimum for one adult tortoise the size of your Greeks. But it sounds like we can't live up to ideals right now. It's more important to get them in at least liveable conditions right now, even if it means skimping on space for awhile.

Try more than just cactus. Cactus isn't really an every day food, more like once or twice a week. It's very good for them, but the sugars in it can upset their stomachs a bit. Sorry, I probably should have mentioned that earlier!

Are they refusing lettuce, too, or are you just not offering it to them right now? If they're refusing the lettuce, then that's definitely bad. If it's just that you aren't offering lettuce and they don't want the cactus, then that's not much to worry about right now. Tortoises are stubborn, and they will try to hold out for the "good stuff" and ignore the stuff they aren't used to. They'll get hungry eventually and start eating, as long as you start correcting some of the problems (with the temperatures, again, being the big one!).


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## egyptian and proud "mayar"

Michael Bird said:


> 70cm square? Wow, that's not even big enough for a single hatchling. Four of those together is about the minimum amount of space you'd need for a single greek adult, and even that is too small. You need at least ten times that much space for two adults, and they're still going to fight over territory and the male is going to harass the female all the time since there's no room for her to get away from him.




they really go along well with each other , no one is bothering the other . 
my mom got them a bigger box it is about 100*70 cm 
we don't have much room for bigger box . out flat is full of furniture .




Floof said:


> I'm thinking part of the food problem might be the temperatures... Definitely get an incandescent bulb over them to give them a basking spot. And definitely get a thermometer so you can know what the temperature is on the basking spot. 70x70 cm isn't as bad as I was imagining, at least... You should be able to put the lamp over one corner and it will leave enough room for them to cool off on the other side.
> 
> As far as finding space for something so big, take a look at the Enclosures section. There are a lot of really creative ideas there for building an enclosure to suit your tortoise and your space. You can do different things like making it shorter but wider (like, 1.2 meters by 1.2 meters instead of 2 meters by .6 meters) and even making a two-level enclosure.
> 
> Michael is right... Even the 2 meters I'm recommending is, really, too small. Normally I recommend 2 meters by .6 meters as a minimum for one adult tortoise the size of your Greeks. But it sounds like we can't live up to ideals right now. It's more important to get them in at least liveable conditions right now, even if it means skimping on space for awhile.
> 
> Try more than just cactus. Cactus isn't really an every day food, more like once or twice a week. It's very good for them, but the sugars in it can upset their stomachs a bit. Sorry, I probably should have mentioned that earlier!
> 
> Are they refusing lettuce, too, or are you just not offering it to them right now? If they're refusing the lettuce, then that's definitely bad. If it's just that you aren't offering lettuce and they don't want the cactus, then that's not much to worry about right now. Tortoises are stubborn, and they will try to hold out for the "good stuff" and ignore the stuff they aren't used to. They'll get hungry eventually and start eating, as long as you start correcting some of the problems (with the temperatures, again, being the big one!).




i will try to get a lamp to day for them , but i'm not sure i'm gonna found the uvb bulb you mean
i'm not offering lettuce , and i don't have any other thing today but the cactus and lettuce and they still refuse to eat . that is their 3rd day


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## Floof

Don't worry about UVB right now. Just get a regular lightbulb (incandescent) over them for heat. You can take them outside in the sun for UVB. Right now you need to worry more about heat. Can you get a thermometer today, too? You still will need to know the temperature under the lamp, to make sure it's warm enough.

Like I said, I think their trouble eating might have something to do with the heat. Get a lamp over them and see if it helps. They can't digest their food properly if they aren't warm enough, which can cause big problems including making them not want to eat.


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## egyptian and proud "mayar"

Floof said:


> Don't worry about UVB right now. Just get a regular lightbulb (incandescent) over them for heat. You can take them outside in the sun for UVB. Right now you need to worry more about heat. Can you get a thermometer today, too? You still will need to know the temperature under the lamp, to make sure it's warm enough.
> 
> Like I said, I think their trouble eating might have something to do with the heat. Get a lamp over them and see if it helps. They can't digest their food properly if they aren't warm enough, which can cause big problems including making them not want to eat.




i will try to get that tomorrow
there is another problem which is the female thinks that she is a monkey and she like to climb things , i was gonna have a heart stroke because of her , i found her laying on her back and not moving , i thought that she died or something , but she is alive thanks Allah , that is the fourth tme she does that in a year . and i'm not always by her to rescue her


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## Floof

Tortoises like to explore, a lot. The small space is probably stressing her out. The male may be stressing her out and making her want to escape more, too. Like Michael said, he's probably stressing her out... Just because they look like they're getting along when you watch them doesn't mean they are.

Anyway, usually, getting a tortoise that acts like your female in a properly sized enclosure with deep enough bedding will help a lot with getting them to stop. If you give them enough room to roam around and explore, they won't feel the need to climb the walls and try to get out.

See if you can rearrange your room and find a space. I know 2 meters or bigger is hard to find room for, but it can be done. You can do things like put the enclosure on top of another piece of furniture (like a really long dresser, or a couple dressers pushed together).


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## Michael Bird

If you really can't make room for a larger flat table/enclosure, you could make something similar to this really nice looking enclosure (click the tiny pictures in Chairman's post to see them full size) that gives a pretty decent amount of roaming area for the tortoises without taking up very much floor space. Or possibly something like this or this which were my own ideas for a multiple level enclosure made of wood instead of the clear plexiglass that Chairman used.


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## MarcaineArt

Michael Bird said:


> If you really can't make room for a larger flat table/enclosure, you could make something similar to this really nice looking enclosure (click the tiny pictures in Chairman's post to see them full size) that gives a pretty decent amount of roaming area for the tortoises without taking up very much floor space. Or possibly something like this or this which were my own ideas for a multiple level enclosure made of wood instead of the clear plexiglass that Chairman used.



Thats a cool idea. Most people seem to be of the opinion that really big single layer is better. I'd like to see some pictures of his torts in the enclosure to get a better idea of scale.

To Mayar. At least you are in the right place to learn how to better care for your tortoise here. I have been learning a lot on this site and I think every day is making me a better tort owner. Keep reading and do the best you can to find the suggestions people on here give. Everyone has the tortoises best interests at heart and while some people may express their opinions more aggressively just do the best you can. You sound like you really care for your pet and want to do the best you can. I don't know if you have a small balcony area with your flat but that would be a great place to grow some of this if you can:http://www.sulcatafood.com/Store.html I bought some of this and grew it on my window sill in small low bins and brought them outside. The guys i have love it and it is very easy to grow. One bag would cover a huge area so you don't need too much at a time.

May I ask how old you are?


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## egyptian and proud "mayar"

thanks all for replying , i've been away for a while
they are eating arugula now , i will try to do the best for them
and i'm 20 years old


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## Michael Bird

I completely understand space restrictions. I don't have a lot of room for my Greek tortoise either, which is why I was working on the different multiple level ideas I posted earlier. But it's good that you are getting them eating a variety of things since that will really help improve their health.


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## CactusVinnie

It's OK that you ask and you want to learn... it is OK even to take a few wild tortoises in your care, if you ALREADY know what they need- me too, I keep natives, but not collected by myself, since here I am able to find LOTS of ignorant people that not only collected them ILLEGALY, but also mistreat them, not to mention reproducing them... those animals are ecologically DEAD, even biologically alive- more or less...
... you, my friend, seems to be from the same cathegory- but you started to ask, wich is good. 

Not good, BY FAR NOT GOOD AT ALL, is that you SELL "cheap tortoises", and you are not a breeder, not even a skilled keeper... considering these, you are nothing but a POACHER, selling protected animals for cheap prices, rare, endangered animals that you know *nothing* about and certainly much older than you!! They deserve more respect than that- being sold for a few Euro, as in Maghreb souks... 

I boiled from the first moment I read your "offer", then felt even worse when realised you don't know nothing about them!! 
I recently "ordered" a few tortoises to a guy exactly like you here in Romania, that advertised as well about â€œany size, any quantity, very cheapâ€, and waited for him in the main railway Bucharest station with undercover policemen and Environment Guard inspectors... he is waiting for his trial now.
From our discussions between "customer and seller" I realised he knows NOTHING about tortoises- except when and where can they be found, since he lives in their habitat- and nothing more. The monster have sold HUNDREDS of adults, and I hope he will receive not jail, but a very painful fine. He destroyed entire populations for a quick money... only pittyful change, since they are very expensive when bought from honnest breeders, but also very rare... SOB...

I just hope that you will change your view on tortoises, give up on poaching and learn about and breed them to help their conservation. if not, it is not my bussiness anymore- God will know better what deserves a poacher...


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