# Keeping tortoises together



## Turborich (May 18, 2018)

I've always been under the impression that these creatures should be kept by themselves. That's what I have done based on what I've read on forums. It seems that this isn't always the case though. I've been watching Kamp Kenan on YouTube. He's can be considered a turtle and tortoise expert. He suggest housing tortoises together, especially to increase egg production if you are a breeder. He suggests a ratio of a few (2-4) males to roughly (7-10) females. Of course you will need a good sized area for this many tortoises or you will have issues. He also says that some tortoises such as Sulcatas will tend to battle more. However over time they will calm down and be peaceful. Check him out on YouTube at Kamp Kenan. After seeing this, I let my two tortoises interact today and they were just fine. Not everything you read online is always true all of the time. I think that various views and experience is healthy.


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## Marianna (May 18, 2018)

I have 3 male marginated tortoises on 5000 square feet (500 m2) here in Greece. No problem whatsoever. I think it is all about having enough space for them to live as naturally as possible. I wouldn't want to experiment though in a 8x4 feet enclosure.
Like human beings, tortoises don't want to be locked/stacked up in a too small housing either.


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## TechnoCheese (May 18, 2018)

Turborich said:


> I've always been under the impression that these creatures should be kept by themselves. That's what I have done based on what I've read on forums. It seems that this isn't always the case though. I've been watching Kamp Kenan on YouTube. He's can be considered a turtle and tortoise expert. He suggest housing tortoises together, especially to increase egg production if you are a breeder. He suggests a ratio of a few (2-4) males to roughly (7-10) females. Of course you will need a good sized area for this many tortoises or you will have issues. He also says that some tortoises such as Sulcatas will tend to battle more. However over time they will calm down and be peaceful. Check him out on YouTube at Kamp Kenan. After seeing this, I let my two tortoises interact today and they were just fine. Not everything you read online is always true all of the time. I think that various views and experience is healthy.



Key word: Groups.
It cannot work in pairs. In pairs, there is always a dominant and a subordinate, and both tortoises are immensely stressed. One tortoise is always being bullied, and the other is constantly trying to get the other out of its territory. In groups, they are able to have a pecking order, and the aggression is spread out.
Tortoises cannot make friends, do not get lonely, and are solitary animals. The reason your tortoises were “fine”, is because they were only together for a short period of time. I believe your tortoises are male and female, but correct if I’m wrong. If they had been HOUSED together for days or months, you would have noticed aggression (cuddling, following, laying on food, not letting the other eat, sitting on each other, biting, etc.), and the male might even start harassing the female.
Kamp Kenan is in no way a good source of information, and it is incredibly dangerous that he calls himself an expert. Most of his information is outdated, and incorrect. And even he has stated that, every now and then, he finds a dead male, flipped over from a fight.
Here are some good links-
Your Opinion on Kamp Kenan Advice on leos. Good ? Bad ?
https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php...mp-Kenan-Advice-on-leos.-Good-?-Bad-?.153284/
Kamp Kenan Baby Kits
https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/Kamp-Kenan-Baby-Kits.164761/


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## TechnoCheese (May 18, 2018)

Marianna said:


> I have 3 male marginated tortoises on 5000 square feet (500 m2) here in Greece. No problem whatsoever. I think it is all about having enough space for them to live as naturally as possible. I wouldn't want to experiment though in a 8x4 feet enclosure.
> Like human beings, tortoises don't want to be locked/stacked up in a too small housing either.



Yep, space is definitely important!


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## ZEROPILOT (May 18, 2018)

Take notice of 2 things in his videos.
1 He lives in a tropical environment
2 He has very large plots of land
The only species that almost (not always) get along in groups with one male for every no fewer than 3 females is the Redfoot.
With a lot of space, hide areas, etc. These often times can be kept together. But the space needed isn't something available to most keepers. Providing the warmth, shade and needed humidity is also difficult. But not for Keenan in south Florida.
Most first time keepers think of a BIG enclosure as a large fish tank, etc. A large enclosure is larger than that. With most medium sized tortoises such as leopard or Redfoot needing at least an 8x8 foot space at the very minimum. So anything less than an entire reptile room in a house will soon be too small for just one. Much less a group.
And I agree. No pairs. Not even Redfoot. And never, ever mix species in the same enclosure.


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## Tom (May 18, 2018)

Turborich said:


> He's can be considered a turtle and tortoise expert.



No. No he can't. Not by anyone who knows better.

He's a charismatic guy who makes professional quality videos. The content of the videos is not always a good example or good advice.

As has been said already, pairs are the problem we discuss. Most species can be kept in groups in some way or other with caution and the correct sex ratios.


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## Erik Elvis (May 18, 2018)

I like Kenans videos. Ive watched a lot of them and he has updated some of his info from older videos. So I think he's willing to learn. But yeah def not a one stop shop for care.


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## Yvonne G (May 18, 2018)

I have a group of leopards, a group of russians, a group of desert tortoises, a group of RF, a group of YF and a few groups of box turtles. These groups all live outside in fairly large yards. The smallest group is 2.2 RF. They key here is the size of their yards and the amount of sight barriers in their yards.

I like to keep babies in groups because of competition for the food. One sees the other eating and it makes him eat. Sometimes a single baby won't eat, but you put him with others and he eats.


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## katieandiggy (May 18, 2018)

Yvonne G said:


> I have a group of leopards, a group of russians, a group of desert tortoises, a group of RF, a group of YF and a few groups of box turtles. These groups all live outside in fairly large yards. The smallest group is 2.2 RF. They key here is the size of their yards and the amount of sight barriers in their yards.
> 
> I like to keep babies in groups because of competition for the food. One sees the other eating and it makes him eat. Sometimes a single baby won't eat, but you put him with others and he eats.



Yvonne at what age do you see it becoming a problem... I have a large garden and more than enough space, but as for keeping them together In a smaller area say 8ft by 4ft at what age would you say they should be separated.


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## Antoni (May 18, 2018)

Yvonne G said:


> I have a group of leopards, a group of russians, a group of desert tortoises, a group of RF, a group of YF and a few groups of box turtles. These groups all live outside in fairly large yards. The smallest group is 2.2 RF. They key here is the size of their yards and the amount of sight barriers in their yards.
> 
> I like to keep babies in groups because of competition for the food. One sees the other eating and it makes him eat. Sometimes a single baby won't eat, but you put him with others and he eats.


I have read about babies being put together for that reason, but at what age or size would u consider separating them?


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## tglazie (May 18, 2018)

As an extremist on this subject with what some seem to describe as an outlying set of experiences, I've always pushed total separation. They can be placed together for supervised combat/breeding, but otherwise, I keep them separated. Like Yvonne said, keeping hatchlings together definitely promotes a better feeding response, and as hatchlings aren't filled with the fury the often fills the blackened hearts of many adult tortoises, they can often be kept together without incident. This isn't a surefire thing, however, and I've seen hatchling Hermanns and Russians as young as six months resorting to chasing and vicious biting, and I have heard of it in numerous other species. I've personally never seen it in hatchling marginated tortoises, but I have seen other more passive aggressive forms of dominance, and I generally move to isolate those individuals engaging in such practices. Last year's group was particularly notable for the fact that I didn't have to isolate a single hatchling, and my noting of that fact should indicate just how remarkable such a thing is. 

Yes, sometimes group dynamics can work among adults, but with respect to my experience keeping marginated tortoises, it has never worked, not once. I raise hatchlings together, and when one of them starts to mature into a juvenile male, that tortoise will start engaging in dominance play and bullying. With the marginated tortoises, I can't even seem to get the females to get along. I once kept my three biggest girls together with a single male, and he would terrorize them constantly. However, once I removed the male, Lady Gino, my largest and most dominant female, took over as tyrant, and she was even worse than Little Gino. At least Little Gino would lay off as soon as he bred one of the girls to completion. He would bother them, do his business, then go rest in the shade somewhere. Lady Gino, on the other hand, would just relentlessly terrorize the other girls. After a few days of this, Marge started coming down with respiratory problems. She wasn't eating. At that point, I decided that complete separation was necessary. 

Once I did this, all my girls' personalities changed. Everyone was far more content, more gregarious. Sure, I introduce them to one another every so often. Sundays are my big day for these social events, where I take the tortoises out, water them, given all the girls access to an enclosed grazing area, and predictably, Lady Gino acts like a giant jerk and starts chasing other tortoises around. She's generally the first to be returned to her enclosure. But even Marge, who is normally exceedingly shy and reserved, will get an urge to lash out and attack little Whitins and Biggins. Interestingly, Whitins and Biggins, who were raised together with a pair of males and had often been the objects of aggression, have never shown aggression to one another. Of course, I've never owned a male that didn't show aggression. Every single one that I've ever kept was aggressive; the only real question with the boys is "how aggressive is he?" In the case of Little Gino, my most prolific male, the answer is extremely aggressive. Big Gino, on the other hand, is more interested in food than aggression, but even with him, I wouldn't allow him unfettered access to other tortoises. Joey, my youngest male, is also fairly aggressive, but given that he has been raised in isolation and not part of a hatchling group (I acquired him as a juvenile from Chris Leone a few years back), I couldn't gauge exactly how monstrous he truly is. But I do know that when he is in the presence of the other boys, he doesn't shy away from confrontation. 

Many new folks are asking how old the animals have to be when you have to separate them, and that truly varies. I've spoken with enough fellow tortoise keepers to know that some folks will never have to separate their animals. I raised Whitins and Biggins together for years, and they never had an incident. I ultimately separated them when they passed the five inch mark, as I'm wont to do, but that's just a policy I started regarding marginated tortoises back in the mid 2000s. I've lost tortoises to aggression that I failed to recognize in the past, and thus, I drew a line in the sand. But obviously, that isn't necessary for all animals. Whitins and Biggins have no problems with each other, even when I reintroduce them on neutral ground. Were I a betting man, I'd say they could probably live together in a large enough space without any problems. But I'm not going to do it, because even though I've never seen these two open their mouths at one another, even though I've never seen these two interact with more than a sniff to the shell of the other, all it takes is one incident, one day when Biggins decides that Whitins will look better minus an eyeball. 

There are other reasons as well. I like ensuring paternity with my tortoises. I like knowing which tortoise laid which egg, and which male fertilized said egg. It makes things so much easier, especially when my girls manage to sneak a clutch past me, so I know, this baby is in Lady Gino's enclosure, ergo, this baby is Lady Gino's and Little Gino's. Sure, some people don't care, but I guess I'm a bit obsessive in that regard, like Maury for tortoises or something. 

I'm not trying to press my way of doing things onto others. If groups has worked for you, that's wonderful, I'm glad you saved all that time, energy and money on fencing materials. But know that for many, it just doesn't work. Now I'm not saying don't get more than one tortoise either. I mean, I have thirty five animals under my care currently (yeah, I know, Tom, small potatoes), and all the adults and subadults in that number are kept singly. It doesn't mean you can't enjoy multiple animals, and it doesn't mean you can't enjoy watching them interact. It just means that for their safety and for your absolute peace of mind, you just can't beat single keeping. Sure, it's more work to set up, but in my view, I wouldn't have it any other way. 

T.G.


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## Antoni (May 18, 2018)

tglazie said:


> As an extremist on this subject with what some seem to describe as an outlying set of experiences, I've always pushed total separation. They can be placed together for supervised combat/breeding, but otherwise, I keep them separated. Like Yvonne said, keeping hatchlings together definitely promotes a better feeding response, and as hatchlings aren't filled with the fury the often fills the blackened hearts of many adult tortoises, they can often be kept together without incident. This isn't a surefire thing, however, and I've seen hatchling Hermanns and Russians as young as six months resorting to chasing and vicious biting, and I have heard of it in numerous other species. I've personally never seen it in hatchling marginated tortoises, but I have seen other more passive aggressive forms of dominance, and I generally move to isolate those individuals engaging in such practices. Last year's group was particularly notable for the fact that I didn't have to isolate a single hatchling, and my noting of that fact should indicate just how remarkable such a thing is.
> 
> Yes, sometimes group dynamics can work among adults, but with respect to my experience keeping marginated tortoises, it has never worked, not once. I raise hatchlings together, and when one of them starts to mature into a juvenile male, that tortoise will start engaging in dominance play and bullying. With the marginated tortoises, I can't even seem to get the females to get along. I once kept my three biggest girls together with a single male, and he would terrorize them constantly. However, once I removed the male, Lady Gino, my largest and most dominant female, took over as tyrant, and she was even worse than Little Gino. At least Little Gino would lay off as soon as he bred one of the girls to completion. He would bother them, do his business, then go rest in the shade somewhere. Lady Gino, on the other hand, would just relentlessly terrorize the other girls. After a few days of this, Marge started coming down with respiratory problems. She wasn't eating. At that point, I decided that complete separation was necessary.
> 
> ...


Hello! Still a newbie with the hobby, how do u feel about separate enclosures but have the same roaming yard?


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## tglazie (May 18, 2018)

Antoni said:


> Hello! Still a newbie with the hobby, how do u feel about separate enclosures but have the same roaming yard?


This all depends upon the level of exposure. I have a roaming yard that serves as neutral ground. I use it for all animal social interactions. It also has the highest concentration of edible plants growing, and it is basically my seed bank. Sometimes, the tortoises overgraze a particular plant within their enclosure. In the central neutral space, I usually have that plant growing, and it will produce seed for the coming season. But that's a tangent, apologies, I'm often one to get on those. What I mean regarding exposure is, how much time do the animals spend in one another's company? How much of that time is unsupervised? I'm personally of the view that these animals should be supervised when kept together, so from my perspective, a common area is fine, but you should be there watching their interactions to ensure that nothing potentially damaging occurs to one or the other animals. 

I place my males together a few days out of brumation to engage in ritual combat. This gets their man juices going, inclines them to be more enthusiastic breeders. Basically, you get them fighting, then remove both of them from the fight before there is a clear winner and before anyone gets hurt, and both males come to the conclusion that they won the fight. Both of them think they're big and bad, that the opponent was the coward who ran. I'm not sure exactly how this mechanism operates, the biology of it, but I have noticed that my males fertilize many more eggs when they've had a few bouts beforehand. Apologies, this is a somewhat related tangent, but my point is that even tortoises who hate each other on first sniff, who get in each other's faces like a couple of MMA fighters squaring off, can be allowed some time together so long as that time is supervised, and that that is perfectly fine, even beneficial in a certain respect. But the question, again, comes back to level of exposure. 

How much time will these animals be spending together. A number of keepers here keep their animals together, but give them a gigantic amount of space in which to roam with numerous sight barriers. This works because all animals within the bounds of the territory can escape from one another should the need arise. What I'm doing isn't really that different. In keeping the animals together in a large space with plenty of hiding places and sight barriers, they are simply lowering the chances that the animals will run into each other and generate conflict. I'm simply lowering those chances to basically zero, ensuring that all conflict and encounters occur within a window that I, as their caretaker, can control. 

What kind of tortoises do you have? How big are they? Do you keep them together or separate? Do you have one and are thinking of getting another? All of these things will help me better tailor any advice I may have to offer. But yes, I'm of the opinion that you should keep the animals safe and ensure they spend most of their time on their own. That's how I've been doing things for a while now, and it has worked quite well. 

T.G.


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## Antoni (May 18, 2018)

tglazie said:


> This all depends upon the level of exposure. I have a roaming yard that serves as neutral ground. I use it for all animal social interactions. It also has the highest concentration of edible plants growing, and it is basically my seed bank. Sometimes, the tortoises overgraze a particular plant within their enclosure. In the central neutral space, I usually have that plant growing, and it will produce seed for the coming season. But that's a tangent, apologies, I'm often one to get on those. What I mean regarding exposure is, how much time do the animals spend in one another's company? How much of that time is unsupervised? I'm personally of the view that these animals should be supervised when kept together, so from my perspective, a common area is fine, but you should be there watching their interactions to ensure that nothing potentially damaging occurs to one or the other animals.
> 
> I place my males together a few days out of brumation to engage in ritual combat. This gets their man juices going, inclines them to be more enthusiastic breeders. Basically, you get them fighting, then remove both of them from the fight before there is a clear winner and before anyone gets hurt, and both males come to the conclusion that they won the fight. Both of them think they're big and bad, that the opponent was the coward who ran. I'm not sure exactly how this mechanism operates, the biology of it, but I have noticed that my males fertilize many more eggs when they've had a few bouts beforehand. Apologies, this is a somewhat related tangent, but my point is that even tortoises who hate each other on first sniff, who get in each other's faces like a couple of MMA fighters squaring off, can be allowed some time together so long as that time is supervised, and that that is perfectly fine, even beneficial in a certain respect. But the question, again, comes back to level of exposure.
> 
> ...


Great tip! Thanks a bunch!  i own 3 leos atm planning on getting stars later on. Basically its ok with supervision and im ok with that.


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## tglazie (May 18, 2018)

Excellent. I've never kept stars, but my uncle owns a bunch of leos. Cool tortoises. He keeps his females together, though he isolates the males. He and I have had some pretty lively debates over care strategies over the years. 

T.G.


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## JanelP (May 19, 2018)

Yvonne G said:


> I have a group of leopards, a group of russians, a group of desert tortoises, a group of RF, a group of YF and a few groups of box turtles. These groups all live outside in fairly large yards. The smallest group is 2.2 RF. They key here is the size of their yards and the amount of sight barriers in their yards.
> 
> I like to keep babies in groups because of competition for the food. One sees the other eating and it makes him eat. Sometimes a single baby won't eat, but you put him with others and he eats.



I'm just curious how you have a group of 2.2 RF.............


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## wellington (May 19, 2018)

tglazie said:


> Excellent. I've never kept stars, but my uncle owns a bunch of leos. Cool tortoises. He keeps his females together, though he isolates the males. He and I have had some pretty lively debates over care strategies over the years.
> 
> T.G.


So do you promote mixing species? Talking of this joint roaming yard? Asking because some could misunderstand.


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## Big Charlie (May 19, 2018)

JanelP said:


> I'm just curious how you have a group of 2.2 RF.............


I believe it means 2 males and 2 females.


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## JanelP (May 19, 2018)

Big Charlie said:


> I believe it means 2 males and 2 females.



ok, that makes more sense. thank you for clarification. I'm thinking poor 0.2 RF


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## Antoni (May 19, 2018)

tglazie said:


> Excellent. I've never kept stars, but my uncle owns a bunch of leos. Cool tortoises. He keeps his females together, though he isolates the males. He and I have had some pretty lively debates over care strategies over the years.
> 
> T.G.


Lucky, im the only one in my family or group of friends that has this as a hobby  no1 wants to talk torty to me. Hense why im active here lol


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## Salspi (May 19, 2018)

Antoni said:


> Lucky, im the only one in my family or group of friends that has this as a hobby  no1 wants to talk torty to me. Hense why im active here lol



Yeah, most of my friends suck too.


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## tglazie (May 19, 2018)

wellington said:


> So do you promote mixing species? Talking of this joint roaming yard? Asking because some could misunderstand.



Not to stray too far off topic, but no, I absolutely advise against the mixing of species. I keep mostly marginated tortoises, a single Turkish ibera, a single Eastern Hermanns tortoise, and, my newest addition, a small colony of baby radiated tortoises. I keep the Hermanns and the Greek in the eastern end of my property (not together, mind you, but within their own respective enclosures. I keep the marginated tortoises in a series of pens clustered around the neutral grazing area (I guess it's the marginated grazing area, for clarity's sake, given that they are the only animals with access to it; I do use seed from this area to sow the hermanni/ibera area) in the center of the property. And I keep the radiateds in the newly setup western end of my property (bought some hibiscus for the adult radiated area and planted a bunch of other stuff; none of my rads are adults yet, so this area only serves as a planter garden for the kiddos at the moment, but when they grow large enough not to be carried off by birds, they will have full access to it). I use a separate set of tools for handling, watering, and maintaining all animals. I even have separate sandals for walking about the different areas (I use the same sandals for Graecus and Mr Lucky, the ibera and the hermanni, because I've had both of them for so long and, to be honest, back when I was more of an idiot than I am today, Mr Lucky has escaped into Graecus' enclosure and challenged the old man to fights that he's lost, but this hasn't happened for a long time now, so I figure that were the two of them to cause one another any trouble concerning direct infection, it would have happened; regardless, this is something of a weak spot in my normally steadfast quarantine protocol, but I maintain complete separation otherwise). 

I have a three way divider on the water nozzle out back, and I have three hoses connected, one green, one black, one red. Green goes to Graecus and Mr Lucky's area, black to the marginated paddocks, and red to the radiated tortoises. This way, I don't have to drag a wet hose between paddocks. Granted, they all meet at the same water source, but even I am of the belief that one can be too thorough, though I must admit I did think about it a lot. One of these days, I need to lay some pvc and set up three nozzles, but running a shop and the regular routine, you know how it is. I bathe all tortoises in bus tubs purchased at a local restaurant supply store, and each tub is marked to indicate which tortoise belongs in which tub. I clean the tubs out on the side of my house, an area to which no tortoises have access. I use the soak water on the front yard flower beds and the yard itself. 

Cinder blocks are my preferred fencing material, given that you can stack them however high you need. Plus they absorb quite a bit of water, which is great for the flash floods we have here in South Texas. When I was younger and more of a fool, I used a lot of wood, and when a flash flood would happen, I would have to run out in the damned rain and save the tortoises on the south central point of the property, the low spot where all my females now sit. Since using the cinders and filling in that area with deeper soil, I don't have any issues. Babies even hatch out of the ground on their own when I miss nests. 

Apologies, I feel I've veered wildly off topic just to respond to the question of whether or not I advocate for the mixing of species. Bottom line, I absolutely, positively do not. No species mixing, not even a "well, these species are sympatric, so maybe..." No, I would never recommend mixing. Not judging those who do, and I'm not wanting to start any arguments in this thread over the matter given how controversial this subject is, but no, I don't practice mixing and never recommend it. 

T.G.


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## tglazie (May 19, 2018)

Antoni said:


> Lucky, im the only one in my family or group of friends that has this as a hobby  no1 wants to talk torty to me. Hense why im active here lol


This forum is a highly valuable resource, and I always wish that I had more time to contribute to it. Unfortunately, I'm one of those guys who never has his phone with him, so I often just don't take pictures, which is a big part of this forum, and I really should contribute more in the way of that. Apologies everyone, but it's just not my first instinct to snap photos when I'm relaxing with the tortoises. 

But yes, I was always fortunate for the fact that my old man and uncle were always very much into tortoises. My grandfather brought home a California desert tortoise when my father was only six years old back in the fifties. And they did everything wrong. Hole drilled in the shell to tether the animal, feeding iceberg lettuce, painting the shell, not providing proper shelter, leaving the poor beast to dig a shallow burrow the length of the tether to escape the heat. I mean, absolutely every single thing wrong. And when I got my first Greek tortoise Graecus, I wasn't much better. I mean, sure, the books back then talked about how barbaric it was to drill and tether a tortoise, because no kidding. But the diet advice, and the products available in pet shops, all of it was, at best, suspect. Having debates with my dad and uncle, reading whatever I could get my hands on, that was the only way to advance one's knowledge back then, and our knowledge is still fairly elementary. I mean, there are still species largely unrepresented in captivity because we lack basic knowledge of their reproductive biology. In the age of the mapped human genome, google maps and solar powered Martian rovers, I find that crazy. But that is starting to change, and I'm absolutely ecstatic to know that some of these mysteries that confounded me as a kid are so much closer to being solved. 

T.G.


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## Joetheyido (May 20, 2018)

Just my 2cents. I so far keep Herman's, stars and one redfoot. The Herman's where adopted from my wife's sisters as they didn't have the time for them anymore and I could look after them better, they have been together for 11years, both female and never had a problem, the both ignore each other most of the time. 
My possibly female stars I have had for 3ish years and there about 4yrs old, possible from the same batch, they have both been fine, never seen any signs, they tend to ignore each other and do what they like. my redfoot I have had for 2 1/2years and is about 3yrs old and I would never get He/she a friend as he eats whatever is in front of him. All that may change or may not who knows but I will cross that bridge when it happens. They all have space (which is important)to do what they want but all tend to be right next to each other most if the time. Most of the info I get for my Herman's is from friends a relative's that have kept these type of torts for 30+yrs.


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## Blackie (May 23, 2018)

Antoni said:


> Lucky, im the only one in my family or group of friends that has this as a hobby  no1 wants to talk torty to me. Hense why im active here lol


My


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## Salspi (May 23, 2018)

Joetheyido said:


> Just my 2cents. I so far keep Herman's, stars and one redfoot. The Herman's where adopted from my wife's sisters as they didn't have the time for them anymore and I could look after them better, they have been together for 11years, both female and never had a problem, the both ignore each other most of the time.
> My possibly female stars I have had for 3ish years and there about 4yrs old, possible from the same batch, they have both been fine, never seen any signs, they tend to ignore each other and do what they like. my redfoot I have had for 2 1/2years and is about 3yrs old and I would never get He/she a friend as he eats whatever is in front of him. All that may change or may not who knows but I will cross that bridge when it happens. They all have space (which is important)to do what they want but all tend to be right next to each other most if the time. Most of the info I get for my Herman's is from friends a relative's that have kept these type of torts for 30+yrs.



Just curious, how much space are you providing the two Hermanns that are getting along very well?


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## ZEROPILOT (May 23, 2018)

I don't think anyone here is saying that pairs (not necessarily a sexed pair) of any particular tortoise NEVER work in ANY circumstances.
What We Want People To know...Especially new tortoise keepers is that in general, pairs are not ideal. They often lead to sickness and even physical harm. To such an extent that as a collective, we just warn new members to not attempt it. Or at the very least, if they're already in that situation, to be on the lookout for the signs and to be prepared to separate them.
Some tortoise species are more calm. Some are more aggressive. But in general, these are not "pack" animals. They don't want or need company. And they should not be kept in pairs.
So, it's not CAN YOU. It's SHOULD YOU.
This is offered as a general rule to help owners and their tortoises.
(Especially their tortoises)


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## Turborich (May 25, 2018)

Well guys, here's an update. I used to have what I believed was a male in my backyard and what I know is a male in my front yard. I posted pics of them both on here somewhere. Anyways, they both stayed separate, however they both tried digging to get the the others yard. There is concrete between the two yards so they could never actually reach each other, but could just see one through the fence a bit. 

Put them together and all seemed fine a dandy to me. I caught the known male trying to mate with the other one. Perhaps the other is a female or perhaps it's a sign of dominance? I'm really not sure. Anyhow, both have been together now for several days, they both go under my shed to sleep and escape the daytime heat and both come out to eat. Sometimes when they are both out at the same time the known male will head bob a bit at the other one, but that's about it. No aggressive or harmful behavior. 

So in my case, I will continue to monitor them and see how they do. So far everything is fine. They did have a good amount of time to smell and see each other through the fence before I actually let them contact each other. 

The known males tail is a bit longer, the scoop on the lower front of his shell is just a bit longer and he has just a bit more of a concave to the underside of his shell. So who knows...

People also say that you can't ever have two male leopard geckos together. My son has had two males in the same terrarium for a year. Both are good eaters, never fight and sleep together. Always exceptions to the rules I would say.


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## TechnoCheese (May 25, 2018)

Turborich said:


> Well guys, here's an update. I used to have what I believed was a male in my backyard and what I know is a male in my front yard. I posted pics of them both on here somewhere. Anyways, they both stayed separate, however they both tried digging to get the the others yard. There is concrete between the two yards so they could never actually reach each other, but could just see one through the fence a bit.
> 
> Put them together and all seemed fine a dandy to me. I caught the known male trying to mate with the other one. Perhaps the other is a female or perhaps it's a sign of dominance? I'm really not sure. Anyhow, both have been together now for several days, they both go under my shed to sleep and escape the daytime heat and both come out to eat. Sometimes when they are both out at the same time the known male will head bob a bit at the other one, but that's about it. No aggressive or harmful behavior.
> 
> ...



You just described aggression. Head bobbing and mounting? Those are ways to assert dominance, unless ones a female, in that case it could be very stressful for the female. I would definitely separate them. They are not friends, and the only thing it can bring is stress.

I would also seriously recommend separating the leopard geckos. They are not “friends”, they do not “get lonely”, and the most they can ever do is tolerate each other. If anything, the most they could do is stress each other out. That could also be why they haven’t been “aggressive” yet; no one wants to make the first move. They are not benefiting in any way by being together, and the only thing it can possibly bring is stress.

Please keep in mind that most aggression is mental, and it’s not just biting. Following, cuddling, sitting on food, not letting the other eat, mounting, always sleeping in the same hide when other hides are present, etc. are all clear signs of aggression.


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## KarenSoCal (May 25, 2018)

tglazie said:


> Not to stray too far off topic, .....
> T.G.



T.G., I say stray all you like! I find your posts to be fascinating! Keep them coming!


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## Tom (May 25, 2018)

Joetheyido said:


> Just my 2cents. I so far keep Herman's, stars and one redfoot. The Herman's where adopted from my wife's sisters as they didn't have the time for them anymore and I could look after them better, they have been together for 11years, both female and never had a problem, the both ignore each other most of the time.
> My possibly female stars I have had for 3ish years and there about 4yrs old, possible from the same batch, they have both been fine, never seen any signs, they tend to ignore each other and do what they like. my redfoot I have had for 2 1/2years and is about 3yrs old and I would never get He/she a friend as he eats whatever is in front of him. All that may change or may not who knows but I will cross that bridge when it happens. They all have space (which is important)to do what they want but all tend to be right next to each other most if the time. Most of the info I get for my Herman's is from friends a relative's that have kept these type of torts for 30+yrs.


I've been keeping tortoises for more than 30 years too. I/we did a lot of things wrong during that time and not everyone has figured this out. Just because your two aren't openly trying to bite and kill each other doesn't mean its not a problem. Being "right next to each other all the time" is called crowding. Its one or both telling the other: "Hey jackass! This territory is occupied. Why don't you leave and go find your own place?" Only they can't leave, and the chronic stress of the situation takes a toll over time.


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## Tom (May 25, 2018)

Turborich said:


> Put them together and all seemed fine a dandy to me.



Is it fun for you to come here, ask for advice, have experienced members spend a lot of their time typing out detailed thoughtful answers to your questions and then completely ignoring what you are unanimously told?



Turborich said:


> I caught the known male trying to mate with the other one. Perhaps the other is a female or perhaps it's a sign of dominance? I'm really not sure.


 You're not sure? I'm sure. I know exactly what is happening there, and that's why we all told you not to do it.



Turborich said:


> Anyhow, both have been together now for several days, they both go under my shed to sleep and escape the daytime heat and both come out to eat. Sometimes when they are both out at the same time the known male will head bob a bit at the other one, but that's about it. No aggressive or harmful behavior.



Everything you just described is aggressive, harmful behavior. Mounting, head bobbing, and trying to crowd each other out of the same burrow is classic tortoise _aggression_ and its bad.



Turborich said:


> So in my case, I will continue to monitor them and see how they do. So far everything is fine.



Everything is *NOT* fine. They are at war, and you've failed to recognize the signs. It is obvious how they are doing. Allowing this to continue is literally animal cruelty. It goes against their nature and doing what you are doing has killed more tortoises than I can count. You need to separate them ASAP. You can't claim you didn't know better anymore after reading this thread and this post.



Turborich said:


> People also say that you can't ever have two male leopard geckos together. My son has had two males in the same terrarium for a year. Both are good eaters, never fight and sleep together. Always exceptions to the rules I would say.



We aren't talking about leopard geckos. We are talking about tortoises. Totally different story. And your tortoises are proving the rule, not an exception to it.

This is where you are headed. After there is a missing eye, scales removed from the front legs, or a dead tortoise that cooked in the summer sun after the other one flipped it, you will wish you had listened to the people you asked for advice.
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/bad-day-for-baby.114328/


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## Turborich (May 26, 2018)

Tom said:


> Is it fun for you to come here, ask for advice, have experienced members spend a lot of their time typing out detailed thoughtful answers to your questions and then completely ignoring what you are unanimously told?
> 
> You're not sure? I'm sure. I know exactly what is happening there, and that's why we all told you not to do it.
> 
> ...


Geez, You expect me to "do as I'm told?" You obviously have some type of a problem dude. It's easy for you to bash on others and claim that professionals are wrong. Take a chill pill guy. I doubt if you have an operation remotely close to Kenan's, yet you bash him too. 

I like reading posts on the forums until you show up acting like the tortoise God and start talking down to people. Might work on somebody else, but not me. I have found a wealth of information, just not from you...


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## Turborich (May 26, 2018)

Tom said:


> Is it fun for you to come here, ask for advice, have experienced members spend a lot of their time typing out detailed thoughtful answers to your questions and then completely ignoring what you are unanimously told?
> 
> You're not sure? I'm sure. I know exactly what is happening there, and that's why we all told you not to do it.
> 
> ...


Tom, the tortoises aren't at war, head bobbing is completely normal mating behavior from the male, nobody ever said they are crowding the same burrow, i said they both go under my shed to escape the heat. You obviously see everything in an extreme scenario. Get a life dude.


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## Redfool (May 26, 2018)

Competitive aggression is necessary in nature to maintain an optimal gene pool. But the torts also have an out of escape unlike in a pen. Aggression equals stress and we as keepers shouldn’t want our torts under constant stress of aggressive behavior by an alpha, they need some relief. Let’s move to relieve stress in our torts and in this post.


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## ZEROPILOT (May 26, 2018)

Turborich said:


> Geez, You expect me to "do as I'm told?" You obviously have some type of a problem dude. It's easy for you to bash on others and claim that professionals are wrong. Take a chill pill guy. I doubt if you have an operation remotely close to Kenan's, yet you bash him too.
> 
> I like reading posts on the forums until you show up acting like the tortoise God and start talking down to people. Might work on somebody else, but not me. I have found a wealth of information, just not from you...


I didn't notice anything mentioned by @Tom that wasn't true and this was all great advice. Learned the hard way. (Experience)
Frank response shouldn't feel like it is rude.
We don't know you. The information shouldn't be seen as an attack on you. It's for the welfare of your animals.
What you do or choose not to do is up to you. But to continue on your current path would be nothing short of foolish.


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## Redfool (May 26, 2018)

ZEROPILOT said:


> I didn't notice anything mentioned by @Tom that wasn't true and this was all great advice. Learned the hard way. (Experience)
> Frank response shouldn't feel like it is rude.
> We don't know you. The information shouldn't be seen as an attack on you. It's for the welfare of your animals.
> What you do or choose not to do is up to you. But to continue on your current path would be nothing short of foolish.



I’d rather learn from others mistakes and experiences than to go through them myself. People convey opinions and experiences at different levels. Advice can be heeded or ignored. I don’t always go by the “suggestions” read here. Just ask yourself “from what I know and from what I’ve read, is this best for my tort?”


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## TechnoCheese (May 26, 2018)

Turborich said:


> Geez, You expect me to "do as I'm told?" You obviously have some type of a problem dude. It's easy for you to bash on others and claim that professionals are wrong. Take a chill pill guy. I doubt if you have an operation remotely close to Kenan's, yet you bash him too.
> 
> I like reading posts on the forums until you show up acting like the tortoise God and start talking down to people. Might work on somebody else, but not me. I have found a wealth of information, just not from you...



Learn from everyone else’s mistakes. We don’t tell you these things for no reason, and Tom was entirely correct. 
Kenan is nowhere near an expert, his tortoise information is not even close to being up to par, and my tortoise has a ring of pyramiding to show for it.


I believed that I could keep him in an open topped enclosure, and I believed that pyramiding was normal. I thought I could just spray the tank once or twice a day, and it would be fine. I was even ‘this’ close to buying him a “friend”.
Follow the forum’s advice. We are making sure that you don’t follow the same path as others, and at this point, it looks like it might turn out that way.


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## Antoni (May 26, 2018)

This forum is great. The shared experience and knowledge proves to prevent mistakes that happened with the more experienced if the advice is followed. BUT..... i have seen some of you in another thread basically bully this kid into returning his tort. Yes i know that he didn’t know what he got himself into. And should’ve done the research first. But we dont know exactly whats going on. It could’ve been a bday present or a graduation surprise or even just a surprise companion from a loved one. Wouldnt it be nicer if we’re to guide them rather than telling them “if you cant provide this, or do this, return it”. He was so extatic for his new friend and everyone in the thread told him to return it. When i read it, all our info was correct but that was Harsh no matter how u look at it. statistically im guessing about 40% of the forums visitors here are kids to teenagers getting info to care for their new tortoise, maybe more. Not everyone has years and years of care experience, ir mature enough for this kind of responsibility. But i would never tell a kid “return that puppy because your parents will end up taking care of it” (which is 100% of the time) Again i love this place. I learned so much and have seen accurate results. And i try my best to give advice to the new owners in a way that they dont feel pressured. Because in the end we cant force them to do the other. Also our information is “live” and by that i mean we discover new things and techniques which is why its hard to introduce it to a crowd, specially taught by pet stores who cares only for money. I remember buying my sulcata and the guy told me to just soak twice a week and feed lettuce. That they’re not high maintenance at all.. i went here and OMG!! Was he wrong lol i was upset. Thanks to this place he’s a growing healthy smooth sulcuta. I love it here but lets try to help the torts by helping them.


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## Yvonne G (May 26, 2018)

Turborich said:


> Tom, the tortoises aren't at war, head bobbing is completely normal mating behavior from the male, nobody ever said they are crowding the same burrow, i said they both go under my shed to escape the heat. You obviously see everything in an extreme scenario. Get a life dude.


Yes, head bobbing is a normal mating behaviour, but it is also a sign of aggression, one tort to another, regardless of the sex. I'm sorry you took offense to what Tom said to you, but everything he said has value. Don't forget, we only know what you write. You see the actual tortoises in real life. We can only tell you our experience from what you said. Maybe we don't have the big picture, but Tom does have a lot of experience with tortoises, and he's sharing with you what he knows from first hand.


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## Tom (May 26, 2018)

Antoni said:


> This forum is great. The shared experience and knowledge proves to prevent mistakes that happened with the more experienced if the advice is followed. BUT..... i have seen some of you in another thread basically bully this kid into returning his tort. Yes i know that he didn’t know what he got himself into. And should’ve done the research first. But we dont know exactly whats going on. It could’ve been a bday present or a graduation surprise or even just a surprise companion from a loved one. Wouldnt it be nicer if we’re to guide them rather than telling them “if you cant provide this, or do this, return it”. He was so extatic for his new friend and everyone in the thread told him to return it. When i read it, all our info was correct but that was Harsh no matter how u look at it. statistically im guessing about 40% of the forums visitors here are kids to teenagers getting info to care for their new tortoise, maybe more. Not everyone has years and years of care experience, ir mature enough for this kind of responsibility. But i would never tell a kid “return that puppy because your parents will end up taking care of it” (which is 100% of the time) Again i love this place. I learned so much and have seen accurate results. And i try my best to give advice to the new owners in a way that they dont feel pressured. Because in the end we cant force them to do the other. Also our information is “live” and by that i mean we discover new things and techniques which is why its hard to introduce it to a crowd, specially taught by pet stores who cares only for money. I remember buying my sulcata and the guy told me to just soak twice a week and feed lettuce. That they’re not high maintenance at all.. i went here and OMG!! Was he wrong lol i was upset. Thanks to this place he’s a growing healthy smooth sulcuta. I love it here but lets try to help the torts by helping them.


You make some good points Antoni, and I'm glad you felt comfortable expressing them.

In general I agree with you, but… there's always a but… there comes a point, when harsh realities must be dealt with in order to save the lives of the animals that are the subject of these discussions. I don't know which thread you are talking about in your post, but that has happened several times in the past. If someone is unable, unwilling, or can't afford, or doesn't have the space to take care of their animal, then they do need to give it to someone who can care for it properly. I agree with you that we should try to help them figure out ways to get it done correctly, but in the cases where it can't or won't be done correctly, then recommending they give it away is the best option.

In the case of the OP, he's heading toward a train wreck that I've personally witnessed far too many times. The nice approach failed, so it was time to level with the guy and spell it out in plain English. His tortoise's lives depend on it. It seems his ego and pride are going to win out, which means his two tortoise are going to lose. I, and other people who've done what he's doing, or seen it done by others, know what is coming. He'll find one or both of them bloody or dead. Then his foolish pride will make him leave the forum in silence and shame, when instead he should share the mistake he made and try to prevent others from making that same mistake. How much do you want to bet he didn't even click open the thread I linked for him with the tortoise that now has a bloody hole where its eye used to be?

I appreciate your reminder of why we are here. The goal is to help tortoises and their people. I need to constantly assess and re-assess how to best accomplish that, but sometimes I am going to fail. I can't reach everybody. Some people don't want to be helped, and won't allow themselves to be helped, no matter what approach is taken. In cases like this, my hope is that some of the other people reading along will be helped, even if the OP can't or won't be helped.


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## Antoni (May 26, 2018)

Tom said:


> You make some good points Antoni, and I'm glad you felt comfortable expressing them.
> 
> In general I agree with you, but… there's always a but… there comes a point, when harsh realities must be dealt with in order to save the lives of the animals that are the subject of these discussions. I don't know which thread you are talking about in your post, but that has happened several times in the past. If someone is unable, unwilling, or can't afford, or doesn't have the space to take care of their animal, then they do need to give it to someone who can care for it properly. I agree with you that we should try to help them figure out ways to get it done correctly, but in the cases where it can't or won't be done correctly, then recommending they give it away is the best option.
> 
> ...


100% agree. Im trying my best to share the info i have learned here. But some simply wanna see for themselves.. im not one of those. Never was.. so i appreciate the knowledge shared 150%!!


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## Turborich (May 26, 2018)

You guys and gals can follow Tom like a flock of sheep and can take everything he says as holly. That's your choice. I have my own choice and I choose to leave this group due to Tom's aggression. I've seen it in multiple posts now. Perhaps Tom is so worried about missing eyes, scales and finding dead tortoises because of his own mistakes which he now lashes out at others for? This forum reminds me of the HOA with the bad president that you just can't get rid of. Goodbye people.


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## Tom (May 26, 2018)

Turborich said:


> You guys and gals can follow Tom like a flock of sheep and can take everything he says as holly. That's your choice. I have my own choice and I choose to leave this group due to Tom's aggression. I've seen it in multiple posts now. Perhaps Tom is so worried about missing eyes, scales and finding dead tortoises because of his own mistakes which he now lashes out at others for? This forum reminds me of the HOA with the bad president that you just can't get rid of. Goodbye people.


Several people are telling you the same thing. No one is "following" me. If multiple people are telling you the world is not flat, that doesn't mean they are blindly following the first guy that said it. It just means more than one person realizes the world is not flat.

No one lashed out at you. We are all trying to save your tortoises from the harm that is likely coming their way. You taking good advice based on decades of first hand as some sort of personal attack is not a wise choice for your tortoises in my opinion. I have nothing against you. I'm just trying to help you understand that you've made a mistake and your tortoises will pay the price for it.


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## TechnoCheese (May 26, 2018)

Turborich said:


> You guys and gals can follow Tom like a flock of sheep and can take everything he says as holly. That's your choice. I have my own choice and I choose to leave this group due to Tom's aggression. I've seen it in multiple posts now. Perhaps Tom is so worried about missing eyes, scales and finding dead tortoises because of his own mistakes which he now lashes out at others for? This forum reminds me of the HOA with the bad president that you just can't get rid of. Goodbye people.



So, let me get this strait. Because Tom has made these mistakes, and is trying to keep people from doing the same thing, it means he is bitter and wants to attack everyone who thinks they can do it. 
Lots of us have experienced the things that the forum has warned us about. It’s not just Tom, it’s the forum as a whole. We don’t just blindly follow, we have observed it through the forum. We have seen these with our own eyes. I hope that you drop your naive view that your tortoises are “friends”, and that they’ll get along fine (while showing obvious signs of aggression, of course), and do what’s best for your tortoises. This is considered animal cruelty. You are not ignorant to the fact that they are being aggressive to each other, yet you still choose to leave them together.
You are not the exception. You are the example.


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## Antoni (May 26, 2018)

Turborich said:


> You guys and gals can follow Tom like a flock of sheep and can take everything he says as holly. That's your choice. I have my own choice and I choose to leave this group due to Tom's aggression. I've seen it in multiple posts now. Perhaps Tom is so worried about missing eyes, scales and finding dead tortoises because of his own mistakes which he now lashes out at others for? This forum reminds me of the HOA with the bad president that you just can't get rid of. Goodbye people.


“Follow”? It’s a forum dude. People will say what they want. I. This case they were trying to help you by pointing out things that they’ve experienced. And lets say everything is good on ur side by some luck with their personality, multiple breeders and handlers not just tom points the same things and concerns. So people re-reading forums will get these infoz I dont agree with the bashing with kenan. Since not all his info is “outdated” i still find alot of what he say helpful and the video is entertaining. But u got put things that he say like “flip the alpha male over so he knows ur the alpha” as an example of an advice that put us in concern and a video of him admitting that he came home to a flipped and dead male sharing with multiple adults. Take what you think is right with kenan or here. Just remember here u are talking to alotnof experienced handlers not just one. More torts doesnt mean they’re better either. Lands in florida are bigger than most states so the amount of tortoise they can care for differ as well. Anyway. Good luck with your tortoise. Feel free to read back any threads that could help u in the future.


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## Joetheyido (May 26, 2018)

Salspi said:


> Just curious, how much space are you providing the two Hermanns that are getting along very well?


Most of the time now they have a garden, when the weather is bad they have a spare bedroom. Before I had them they had a pretty small rabbit cage in winter but from what I know there still wasn't any aggression and no sighs on them of anything.


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## Jay Bagley (May 26, 2018)

Turborich said:


> You guys and gals can follow Tom like a flock of sheep and can take everything he says as holly. That's your choice. I have my own choice and I choose to leave this group due to Tom's aggression. I've seen it in multiple posts now. Perhaps Tom is so worried about missing eyes, scales and finding dead tortoises because of his own mistakes which he now lashes out at others for? This forum reminds me of the HOA with the bad president that you just can't get rid of. Goodbye people.


I tend to just listen to who or what ever makes the most sense. Tom's care sheets that he has out for sulcatas have helped me tremendously. Do I follow them to a T, no. Do I eventually want to get to the point where I am, yes very much. Since I have been applying a lot of the info that he does have out there, my tortoise has transformed from being underweight and small to packing on the pounds. I think what I like the most about the info that he puts out there is that he does it in a very modest way. I hope you don't leave. Its a holiday weekend, crack a beer with a couple friends and reset.


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## Redfool (May 26, 2018)

I for one come to this forum to learn. You must realize that there is a very different presentation technique between an elementary school teacher and a college professor. They both present info. No matter how it’s presented, just analyze the facts. Facts are facts. Take no offense from someone you don’t know and will probably never interact with, just use their knowledge.


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## Joetheyido (May 26, 2018)

Tom said:


> I've been keeping tortoises for more than 30 years too. I/we did a lot of things wrong during that time and not everyone has figured this out. Just because your two aren't openly trying to bite and kill each other doesn't mean its not a problem. Being "right next to each other all the time" is called crowding. Its one or both telling the other: "Hey jackass! This territory is occupied. Why don't you leave and go find your own place?" Only they can't leave, and the chronic stress of the situation takes a toll over time.


That was just my experience, I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It goes to show everyone has a different experiences. I believe I have given them just enough space to chose where and what they want to do.

I have read on keeping groups of 3 or more together, I believe Tom you might have written something before can't remember tho. Would that only apply when they are smaller or does the amount of space they have come into play?

I do listen to alot of good information from here and Tom mainly. If there is obviously sings there's something wrong then change it.


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## tglazie (May 26, 2018)

Turborich said:


> You guys and gals can follow Tom like a flock of sheep and can take everything he says as holly. That's your choice. I have my own choice and I choose to leave this group due to Tom's aggression. I've seen it in multiple posts now. Perhaps Tom is so worried about missing eyes, scales and finding dead tortoises because of his own mistakes which he now lashes out at others for? This forum reminds me of the HOA with the bad president that you just can't get rid of. Goodbye people.



I may be speaking to a wall here, but you really shouldn't leave. Whatever your feelings may be toward Tom, this forum is a valuable resource, and it's members have contributed greatly to the body of knowledge concerning the captive care of these animals. I've been keeping tortoises for decades, and I can second many of Tom's views from my personal experience. Granted, he's not a diplomat, but if you can for one moment divorce what you perceive to be his condescending tone from the advice he has on offer, you will be the better for it. 

Regarding head bobbing, yes, it is a normal mating behavior, but so is a crow eating my baby tortoise's guts through a hole pecked in his carapace. This doesn't mean I should indulge the God forsaken crow, and it doesn't mean I should allow one of my male tortoises unfettered access to my females or other males simply because the behavior that would follow such an action is normal or natural. Bottom line with tortoises is that they are, if nothing else, big jerks. Just because it is normal for them to be jerks doesn't mean we should allow them to be jerks to one another. 

If you don't want to participate in the forum anymore, I don't think there's anything any of us could say to convince you otherwise. However, I hope that when your feelings of indignity toward Tom subside (or at least dim ever so slightly) that you will at least return as a reader of the content generated here. 

T.G.


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## Tom (May 26, 2018)

Joetheyido said:


> I have read on keeping groups of 3 or more together, I believe Tom you might have written something before can't remember tho. Would that only apply when they are smaller or does the amount of space they have come into play?



I don't believe space has much to do with it. When I turned my two male sulcatas loose on opposite ends of a 5 acre ranch they would usually find each other, and start trying to kill each other, within 10-20 minutes. I had to only let one out at a time. Nowadays I don't "let them out" at all, and I just made their enclosures bigger. My main sulcata enclosure is now over 8000 sq. ft. Another lesson I had to learn the hard way over the years.

I think this is two different conversations for babies/juveniles, and adults too. Prior to those male hormones kicking in, most species can get along fairly well in small groups, and I don't think enclosure size matters all that much. For adults, larger enclosures with lots of visual barriers and hiding areas will reduce tensions, but a pair of adult males, or a male and female pair will still find each other and have problems even if they have a giant enclosure. Two females _might _be able to co-esist in this sort of situation (large enclosure with lots of visual barrier and hiding spots), but it really depends on the individuals and the species in general. This is more likely to work with two leopard tortoise or star tortoise females than it is with two desert tortoises, sulcatas or russians.


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## Joetheyido (May 26, 2018)

Tom said:


> I don't believe space has much to do with it. When I turned my two male sulcatas loose on opposite ends of a 5 acre ranch they would usually find each other, and start trying to kill each other, within 10-20 minutes. I had to only let one out at a time. Nowadays I don't "let them out" at all, and I just made their enclosures bigger. My main sulcata enclosure is now over 8000 sq. ft. Another lesson I had to learn the hard way over the years.
> 
> I think this is two different conversations for babies/juveniles, and adults too. Prior to those male hormones kicking in, most species can get along fairly well in small groups, and I don't think enclosure size matters all that much. For adults, larger enclosures with lots of visual barriers and hiding areas will reduce tensions, but a pair of adult males, or a male and female pair will still find each other and have problems even if they have a giant enclosure. Two females _might _be able to co-esist in this sort of situation (large enclosure with lots of visual barrier and hiding spots), but it really depends on the individuals and the species in general. This is more likely to work with two leopard tortoise or star tortoise females than it is with two desert tortoises, sulcatas or russians.


Ok cheers Tom. I have to female Herman's and I believe to female stars so maybe I'm lucky and they do.


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## tglazie (May 26, 2018)

Regarding Kamp Kenan, I have to admit that I occasionally watch that channel. I don't think he's an expert, and he definitely engages in some practices that I wouldn't. He and I differ greatly regarding separation, which is obvious to anyone familiar with his collection. All of his animals exist in groups, and several of them exist in multi-species groups, and many of his hatchlings are kept in multi-species groups, which is why I would never purchase any animals he produces. In my view, he just takes way too many risks. For instance, I would never keep a galaps and aldabras together, nor would I keep elongata and manouria together, nor would I keep elongata and redfoots together. And I do remember he lost one of his male sulcatas to male on male violence, and to me personally, I just don't know how he can continue keeping those animals together without the constant fear that it could happen again. 

I mean, speaking purely from my own experience, if something tragic happens, I look at what caused it, and I do my best to keep those causal factors from coalescing ever again so that any such tragedy in the future may be avoided. My old man passed away in 2011 from a heart attack. After that, I quit smoking, significantly reduced my drinking, improved my diet and started walking the trails on the southern end of my property. After that happened, I began thinking seriously about how my tortoises would fare if I suddenly passed away, leaving my old lady and younger brother to look after my group in my stead. What would happen to my employees if I continued smoking and making bad life choices like my poor old man, God rest him? I did the logical thing, what was, in my view, the right thing. Same works for those tortoises. I just don't see how you can square keeping multiple males in a group when something so unspeakably horrible happened. I mean, it's not just the irreplaceable loss of that animal, but also all that work and time, none of which you will be getting back, all of which was in vain. I just couldn't accept something like that and then, well, just choose to do nothing. 

I don't know. Ya'll know I'm a bit of an extremist when it comes to this stuff. Something about my upbringing, I suppose, or just a tactic I developed being at loggerheads with my old man and uncle concerning tortoise care. It's actually something I rather enjoy about the forum, flushing out the differences, explaining why we do things the way we do. Makes you reexamine things. And self reflection is good, in my view. It makes us better at keeping these beasts. 

T.G.


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## Antoni (May 26, 2018)

Joetheyido said:


> That was just my experience, I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It goes to show everyone has a different experiences. I believe I have given them just enough space to chose where and what they want to do.
> 
> I have read on keeping groups of 3 or more together, I believe Tom you might have written something before can't remember tho. Would that only apply when they are smaller or does the amount of space they have come into play?
> 
> I do listen to alot of good information from here and Tom mainly. If there is obviously sings there's something wrong then change it.


Im currently keeping 3 leos together. It promotes competition which makes them eat when the other is eating. That being said, they are only 3 months old and ive been informed that once they are bigger i would need to separate. Also on top of that while i keep them together i lrovide enough room for them to roam and stay away from aggression. If i notice any type of aggression i will separate right away. ( i have the enclosures ready just incase)


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## ZEROPILOT (May 26, 2018)

Please allow me to clarify my own, previous input about keeping a small herd of tortoises.
I keep Redfoot. Only Redfoot. And they may just be the most calm and tolerant species of all. But even with them. Pairs are not anything I'd recommend.


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## KarenSoCal (May 26, 2018)

Turborich said:


> I have my own choice and I choose to leave this group due to Tom's aggression.



Don't dismiss the message just because you don't like the messenger.


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## Turborich (Aug 5, 2018)

Well guys and gals, just thought I'd pop in in tell you all that Tom is totally incorrect about just about everything that he claimed. As you know, I had two desert tortoises together. Well, now you can make it three! It's been over two months now with all three of them and they are all doing fantastic and all interact with each other. No harm has come to any of them. I basically let them do their own thing and they figured everything else out on their own! 

My large female has decided to live and make a burrow under my 8'x10' shed which is raised off of the ground about 6". Sometimes the other two tortoises will stroll in for a daytime visit, however they go into their own borrow at the end of the day which is about 20' away. Yes, two tortoises in one burrow and they love it! A large male and a medium sized female have both made the burrow home. They will usually come out to feed around the same time. Now that summer is in full swing and the nights don't fall under 90 degrees, the large male will sometimes come out at night and sleep on the grass. The tortoises, my two dogs, a bunch of Mediterranean house geckos and toads all share my back yard in peace and harmony. 

All three are happy and do their own thing without any friction or fighting. Just like all other animals there is a pecking order. If you allow them to work it out then they are quite peaceful creatures. 

As far as food, they love mulberry leaves, grape vine leaves and dandelion leaves and flowers! They will eat spinach, kale, bell peppers, squash, etc, but really prefer the first three! 

We are talking about desert tortoises here, not Sulcata tortoises. If you want to listen to Tom then more power to you, however I know what I have experienced in my own backyard. Also, if you think that Kenan doesn't know about tortoises, then that's your opinion. I think it's laughable to say he's not very educated about tortoises or turtles after watching his videos. I would say that he's more of an expert versus anyone here. 

Thanks for reading and take care!


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## Reptilony (Aug 5, 2018)

Turborich said:


> Well guys and gals, just thought I'd pop in in tell you all that Tom is totally incorrect about just about everything that he claimed. As you know, I had two desert tortoises together. Well, now you can make it three! It's been over two months now with all three of them and they are all doing fantastic and all interact with each other. No harm has come to any of them. I basically let them do their own thing and they figured everything else out on their own!
> 
> My large female has decided to live and make a burrow under my 8'x10' shed which is raised off of the ground about 6". Sometimes the other two tortoises will stroll in for a daytime visit, however they go into their own borrow at the end of the day which is about 20' away. Yes, two tortoises in one burrow and they love it! A large male and a medium sized female have both made the burrow home. They will usually come out to feed around the same time. Now that summer is in full swing and the nights don't fall under 90 degrees, the large male will sometimes come out at night and sleep on the grass. The tortoises, my two dogs, a bunch of Mediterranean house geckos and toads all share my back yard in peace and harmony.
> 
> ...



Wow, I disagree with everything you said...thanks for sharing!


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## TechnoCheese (Aug 5, 2018)

Turborich said:


> Well guys and gals, just thought I'd pop in in tell you all that Tom is totally incorrect about just about everything that he claimed. As you know, I had two desert tortoises together. Well, now you can make it three! It's been over two months now with all three of them and they are all doing fantastic and all interact with each other. No harm has come to any of them. I basically let them do their own thing and they figured everything else out on their own!
> 
> My large female has decided to live and make a burrow under my 8'x10' shed which is raised off of the ground about 6". Sometimes the other two tortoises will stroll in for a daytime visit, however they go into their own borrow at the end of the day which is about 20' away. Yes, two tortoises in one burrow and they love it! A large male and a medium sized female have both made the burrow home. They will usually come out to feed around the same time. Now that summer is in full swing and the nights don't fall under 90 degrees, the large male will sometimes come out at night and sleep on the grass. The tortoises, my two dogs, a bunch of Mediterranean house geckos and toads all share my back yard in peace and harmony.
> 
> ...



Good job, you got a group. AKA how to make tortoises live together and establish a pecking order, which everyone has been telling you to do instead of keeping a pair.

Them sleeping in the same burrow is called crowding, not affectionate. It’s one trying to stress the other out of its territory. Believe it or not, you can’t give human emotions to everything.

Kenan recently recommended that you keep tortoises with other large reptiles. I don’t know about you, but to me that’s absolutely unacceptable,




And leads to questions like this.


You can choose to keep up your arrogant facade, but I do hope you know that your animals suffer for it.


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