# Hybrid tortoises



## Leopardsulcata (Jan 5, 2014)

Ok I like hybrids I realize this topic so I would to say that if you are not a fan of hybrids I understand I only condone related species hybrids not complete freak shows so with that out of the way lets get down to business and start the topic


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## bigred (Jan 5, 2014)

Im not against it, but alot of people on here probably are, this will be a hot topic


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## Tom (Jan 5, 2014)

This subject has been covered many times over the years. Rehashing it is not productive. Please do a search for these older threads if you are interested in everyone's opinions about this subject.


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## jaizei (Jan 5, 2014)

Leopardsulcata said:


> I only condone related species hybrids not complete freak shows so with that out of the way lets get down to business and start the topic



Where do you draw the line? What are some of the 'related species' hybrids that you condone and which ones cross the line.


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## wellington (Jan 5, 2014)

Here is just one other thread on it. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-73581.html


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## cdmay (Jan 6, 2014)

Leopardsulcata said:


> Ok I like hybrids I realize this topic so I would to say that if you are not a fan of hybrids I understand I only condone related species hybrids not complete freak shows so with that out of the way lets get down to business and start the topic



As was mentioned by Tom this is a topic that has been beat to death here in the past. I've given up arguing with but I will say that hybridization of very different species (Radiated Tortoises X Red-Footed Tortoises, Elongated X Red-Footed, and so on) doesn't bother me as much as the deliberate mixing of similar species, or recognizable regional variants of the same species.
Most of the serious keepers of the Testudo species of tortoise now recognize the danger of losing the unique populations of _Testudo hermanni_ in captivity due to ignorant or irresponsible keepers mixing localities together. In my opinion keepers who engage in such behavior are short sighted and are not thinking of the long term consequences of their actions.
As for actual hybridization of different species, very little has been done as far as I know outside of Leopard Tortoises being bred with Sulcatas and maybe a few Yellow-Footed X Red-Footed tortoise crosses. Although virtually all of the so called hybrids of the latter that I have seen have simply been well colored Yellow-Footed Tortoises.
There has been at least one (or two) instances of Red-Footed X Radiated Tortoise breeding but the offspring were fairly recognizable as hybrids and I doubt that many keepers would want to perpetuate such a mix.


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## diamondbp (Jan 6, 2014)

It would be cool to see a composed list of known hybrids with pictures.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 7, 2014)

*Re: RE: Hybrid tortoises*



cdmay said:


> Leopardsulcata said:
> 
> 
> > Ok I like hybrids I realize this topic so I would to say that if you are not a fan of hybrids I understand I only condone related species hybrids not complete freak shows so with that out of the way lets get down to business and start the topic
> ...



This is the list, now that it is pulled together on TFO, maybe the OP can demonstrate some skills and pull the images here as the OP's contribution to this fringe interest. Yeah, get your google on.


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## argus333 (Jan 7, 2014)

Sorry but I think leoprocatas are badass.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jan 10, 2014)

I find the subject interesting, and really doubt it'll ever be a major issue, as getting tortoises (or most reptiles) to hybridize isn't all that easy to do. I have a female rat/bullsnake X that only lays slugs, and the guy I got her from has bred corns, rats, bulls and kings for about 25 years, but only managed to get three breedings from "mixed sets (bull/rat, king/bull, rat/king)", and only one clutch hatched.

That being said, I feel the genetic integrity of the rarer subspecies' bloodlines should remain "pure", such as western Hermann's vs. Eastern and/or Dalmation Hermann's, as the Westerns are rarer. Same way with the various Graeca subspecies. These are close enough for breeding to successfully take place, and, in fact, my Jennifer may well have some Dalmation ancestry. 

And I am curious as the whether leoprocatas can even reproduce...they may well be "mules", and quite possibly will the redfoot/radiateds prove to be, as well.

Fascinating subject that we know so little about.


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## mctlong (Jan 12, 2014)

Yes, hashed and rehashed over and over again on this forum. This is one of those topics where people will always disagree. There will always be people for it and people against it and new threads on the subject probably aren't going to change anyone's minds.

I didn't fill out the poll since none of the categories really fits my beliefs on the subject. I'm not neutral, but I don't consider myself a "major hybrid fan" either. I can't clump all hybrid efforts together as all good or all bad. For me, it depends.

I think we need to look at it on a case by case basis. I have no problem with hybrids in the pet market, as long as there are still plenty of viable, pure bred lines available for study & as long as the breeders & sellers are open and honest about the animal's lineage (i.e. not trying to pass it off for something its not). There are also some (not many, but some) exceptions where I'd approve of cross breeding rare animals. For example, I was completely for breeding lonesome George with a closely-related galapagos to try to preserve some of his genes.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jan 12, 2014)

mctlong said:


> Yes, hashed and rehashed over and over again on this forum. This is one of those topics where people will always disagree. There will always be people for it and people against it and new threads on the subject probably aren't going to change anyone's minds.
> 
> I didn't fill out the poll since none of the categories really fits my beliefs on the subject. I'm not neutral, but I don't consider myself a "major hybrid fan" either. *I can't clump all hybrid efforts together as all good or all bad. For me, it depends.*
> 
> I think we need to look at it on a case by case basis. *I have no problem with hybrids in the pet market, as long as there are still plenty of viable, pure bred lines available for study & as long as the breeders & sellers are open and honest about the animal's lineage (i.e. not trying to pass it off for something its not). *There are also some (not many, but some) exceptions where *I'd approve of cross breeding rare animals. For example, I was completely for breeding lonesome George with a closely-related galapagos to try to preserve some of his genes.*



Some EXCELLENT points made...kudos!


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## tartagon (Nov 7, 2015)

I don't really mind hybrids but not a huge fan either since none of them look more amazing than other regular species. With that said, if it happens in captivity, then so be it. I don't condone releasing them into the wild, though it's unlikely they'll survive or thrive to the point of outcompeting their parent species to extinction anyway. But that's a risk regardless of hybridization since other tortoise species can be introduced into non-native environments and compete with native tortoise populations. 

I think the idea of keeping bloodlines 'pure' or 'natural' is more a human concern. If it happens that a hybrid is released into the wild and manages to outcompete it's parents, it'll have to fill the same role as it's parent species anyway and thus cause no significant change to the ecosystem. It's sad that future generations wouldn't be able to see the extinct parent species in the wild but they'll get to see this new hybrid tortoise in the wild, so it wouldn't be that different in their perspective. If the tortoise offsprings are happy, the ecosystem is happy, I have nothing against it. 

Besides, hybrids do sometimes occur naturally. Polar bears and grizzly bears sometimes mate to produce 'grolar bears'. Some people are upset about this because it's a symptom of climate change caused by human actions that can impact polar bear populations. But the polar bears and grizzly bears are obviously quite happy with the arrangement, and the offsprings are often healthy too. So the idea of keeping polar bears around just for the future generations is not really a valid reason since it's nothing but a visual experience. Similarly, wholphins (false killer whale x dolphins) have been observed in the wild. 

The only concerns I would have with hybrids are the possibility of different mating rituals between species that can cause stress during courtship, or different sized eggs causing health complications for the females, and reproductive organ damage from mating different sized species.

With all this said, don't release hybrids or any non-native species into the wild; that's not cool.


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