# Hypothetical Breeding Question



## Tom (Oct 17, 2020)

A recent thread from a new member that was interested in breeding made me think of this question. We all know its illegal to breed DTs and told this new member so. We all know if they somehow accidentally get together and breed that its illegal to interfere with the eggs in any way. We are supposed to leave them in the ground and let nature take its course, right?

Here is my question: What if someone is ignorant of the law, digs up DT eggs from their yard, shows up on your door step unannounced, and hands you some tortoise eggs? Further, two scenarios here: 1. What if the person just has a bunch of rescued tortoises of several species, including DTs, running loose in the back yard and doesn't know who laid the eggs, and 2. What if the person does know the species, and tells you something like, "Here these are DT eggs. I don't know what to do with them.", as they hand you the box of eggs?

In either of these purely hypothetical situations, its clear the original person shouldn't be doing what they are doing, and should not have dug up the eggs after doing all the other wrong things, but what is the person being handed the eggs legally required to do? The receiver of such eggs cannot put them back in the ground and let nature take its course as was legally supposed to happen. Is the receiving person supposed to destroy the eggs? Is it okay to hatch them since the receiver didn't do anything illegal and the illegal deeds are already done by someone else? After the fact, so to speak? What if the species isn't known? Can someone hatching DT eggs that didn't even know they were DT eggs until babies hatched be found guilty of breaking the law? If someone hands a person some mystery eggs and genuinely doesn't know what species laid them, could the person doing the incubating be found guilty of knowingly breaking the law?

All of these guys have specific DT experience, but comments and opinions from anyone are welcome and invited.
@Yvonne G 
@maggie3fan 
@KarenSoCal 
@Kapidolo Farms 
@Markw84


----------



## Chubbs the tegu (Oct 17, 2020)

Hypothetically.. if you were to receive illegal eggs knowingly then you would be obligated to report it.
Hypothetically.. if you were to incubate eggs that you had no clue what they were..would highly doubt any legal actions would be taken against you.( highly doubt anybody would know about it anyway)
sooo hypothetically hatch em Tom! Haha


----------



## method89 (Oct 17, 2020)

Hypothetically, what would be the plan if the eggs hatched? Would they be returned to the wild if they were indeed DT's? If this was the case, then nobody is the wiser. If the plan was to keep them I would notify the governing body that you "may" have been given them and how should you proceed. Government inefficiency here would probably absolve you her of any wrong doing


----------



## Toddrickfl1 (Oct 17, 2020)

Box turtles are illegal to own in GA. So hypothetically, I don't own any ?


----------



## Maggie3fan (Oct 17, 2020)

I preface my comment with a not hypothetially, you all know I'm a little bit different than "normal", so my question before I answer...our hypothetical situation...are you asking, what is the right/legal thing to do, or what might, maybe, the hypothetical person, (not me), do. To me all the rest of the questions can be answered quickly after that 1 question. Sorry


----------



## Yvonne G (Oct 17, 2020)

During my years in the rescue business I took in and adopted out in many, many CDT hatchlings from 'ignorant of the law' folks who purposely bred CDTs. I always advised them, and sometimes even gave them a copy of the regulations regarding CDT breeding.

I was never given eggs, but if I was, i would have destroyed them.


----------



## Chubbs the tegu (Oct 17, 2020)

Yvonne G said:


> During my years in the rescue business I took and adopted out in many, many CDT hatchlings from 'ignorant of the law' folks who purposely bred CDTs. I always advised them, and sometimes even gave them a copy of the regulations regarding CDT breeding.
> 
> I was never given eggs, but if I was, i would have destroyed them.


You savage! ?


----------



## Maggie3fan (Oct 17, 2020)

Hypothetically if I still lived in Calif I would find a local chapter of CTTC and give the eggs to them. 
Hypothetically even tho I know better, I could not smash the eggs. I would stick them in my incubator and hatch them, then when the hatchlings are well started I would either see if there's a chapter of CTTC in Northern Calif and turn over the hatchlings, or find homes for them myself keeping the Star tortoises that were in most of the eggs. I am not adverse to breaking the law, and I know DFG would euthanize the hatchlings or break the eggs. I would never tell DFG anything.
While the questions sorta refer to breaking the law, I don't believe the police care at all. The only governing body that cares is DFG, and I don't care for them, so there ya go, you are seeing my lack of character. TA DA!


----------



## method89 (Oct 17, 2020)

I'm ignorant to most turtle/tortoise law but why on earth is destroying the eggs an option at all?


----------



## Maggie3fan (Oct 17, 2020)

method89 said:


> I'm ignorant to most turtle/tortoise law but why on earth is destroying the eggs an option at all?


1. It's only a law with DFG. 2. They make their rules fairly ambiguous, but if they take a DT away from captivity, they automatically believe it has some disease that would wipe the DTs off the planet. (the Air Force) so they euthanize any DT found in somebody's back yard. Does not matter if you have had that tort for 20 years, doesn't matter if they are not sick, DFG kills them.
In Oregon it's against some law to keep Western Pond Turtles, RES, and Western Painted turtles. Does that mean I won't keep them. No. The owner of the small pet store that buys my parakeet babies called me to go to that store and I picked up an illegal turtle that somebody had left in the store. So of course I'd take it, rehab it and find a home for it. The pet shop owner "might, could" lose his license for that turtle, and Tom(?) "might could" lose his career in his hypothetical situation. Nothing would happen to me as I am very strange, weird, and seriously old, and the being very old I have Disabled and Senior servises


----------



## Tom (Oct 17, 2020)

method89 said:


> Hypothetically, what would be the plan if the eggs hatched? Would they be returned to the wild if they were indeed DT's? If this was the case, then nobody is the wiser. If the plan was to keep them I would notify the governing body that you "may" have been given them and how should you proceed. Government inefficiency here would probably absolve you her of any wrong doing


Captive tortoises cannot be released into the wild with out a whole lot of testing and red tape to get through. This is one area where I agree with the laws. No pet owner should be doing this. Ever. It could wipe out an entire species, and many other species as well.

Any baby DTs that come my way are rehabbed and given away for free to good homes.

The other poster's question just got me thinking.


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Oct 18, 2020)

CDTs are now considered endangered, aren't they? From protected.
If so, every egg life matters, imo.


----------



## Tom (Oct 18, 2020)

BeeBee*BeeLeaves said:


> CDTs are now considered endangered, aren't they? From protected.
> If so, every egg life matters, imo.


You are using common sense and rationality. Those concepts have NOTHING to do with laws or government anymore.


----------



## ZEROPILOT (Oct 18, 2020)

Tom said:


> You are using common sense and rationality. Those concepts have NOTHING to do with laws or government anymore.


Amen


----------



## Maggie3fan (Oct 19, 2020)

BeeBee*BeeLeaves said:


> CDTs are now considered endangered, aren't they? From protected.
> If so, every egg life matters, imo.


This was in yesterdays Corvallis-Gazette Times. It tells how California is making Gopherus agassizii an endangered species temporarily due to the pandemic. It reads " This is a temporary situation. There is basically no difference between the designation endangered and threatened. Endangered simply that DFG will pay more attention to them, then if they were threatened."


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 19, 2020)

This morning I was a bit late for work, traveled at about 80mph, failed to use my turn signal every time I changed lanes. I may have even done a 'California' stop at one metal stop sign. The interstate travel was indeed observed by a CHP. The rest ODK.

The illegality is first and always determined by the law enforcement person on the scene. They do indeed make a judgement. Technically, I could have wracked up alot of 'tickets on my way to work, I got none, even with some of those matters being observed by the law enforcement specifically charged to uphold those bits of law.

CFG tend to be score keepers, the more the better, and use no situational judgement. I wouldn't have even posted a hypothetical here on those matters. But by admission a CHP could probably give me a ticket for my drive to work this morning. Get my point?


----------



## Yvonne G (Oct 19, 2020)

Are you saying beauty is in the eye of the beholder?


----------



## Blackdog1714 (Oct 19, 2020)

Yvonne G said:


> Are you saying beauty is in the eye of the beholder?


What if they have really bad eyesight and call the hypothetical toroise a cat.


----------

