# Substrate Help



## DuttonWebb (Mar 9, 2009)

Alright. I have two tortoises. A Sulcata and Redfoot. 

I kept them both on sand and peat moss. It worked great, but it caused so much dust in my room and i feared impaction, so I switched over to rabbit pellets. The rabbit pellets are awesome except that my redfoot eats them and they are very dehyrdrating and really high in protein. I soak him everyday and spray him with water. What is the best, dustfree, easy to clean, natural looking (as in Not newspaper), alternative.


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 9, 2009)

fine grade orchid bark or eco earth mixed 50/50 with sand. That's the substrate most keepers use and kept moist there's no dust and mixed 50/50 there's no risk of impaction...


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## DuttonWebb (Mar 9, 2009)

maggie3fan said:


> fine grade orchid bark or eco earth mixed 50/50 with sand. That's the substrate most keepers use and kept moist there's no dust and mixed 50/50 there's no risk of impaction...



problem...I tried to keep my sand and peat mosss moist too, but it wasnt possible I'm at school too much. I need a dry substrate. Could I just use bark?


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## Itort (Mar 9, 2009)

I assume that they are housed seperately, so I'll address the RF's housing (I don't have experience with sulcatas). A moist substrate is essential for a RF, so I would strongly recommend the bark/peat mix with sphagum moss in hide. A terra cotta plant saucer 1.5 times the shell length as a wadeing/soaking bowl will help with moist substrate (water leaches out into substrate). A partial cover (about 3/4) will help with humidity as will a twice a day misting.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 9, 2009)

DuttonWebb said:


> problem...I tried to keep my sand and peat mosss moist too, but it wasnt possible I'm at school too much. I need a dry substrate. Could I just use bark?



Hi DuttonWebb: *YOU* might need a dry substrate, but BOTH of your tortoises require a moist substrate...especially the redfoot. If you use either Orchid Bark, Cypress Mulch or 50/50 mix of play sand/dirt or coir, you can solve your problem. Someone has to feed the two tortoises every day while you are away at school, so that same someone can pour a pitcherfull of water over the substrate every day at feeding time to keep the dust down. I'm sure you want what is best for your tortoises, and a dry substrate IS NOT what's best.

Yvonne


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## nrfitchett4 (Mar 10, 2009)

For my sulcata baby I just used organic potting soil and planted sulcata mix grass seed. It gets watered with warm water every afternoon on the warm side and every other day on the cool side. Seems to work really well. Not sure why you don't have time to water the substrate?


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## DuttonWebb (Mar 10, 2009)

emysemys said:


> DuttonWebb said:
> 
> 
> > problem...I tried to keep my sand and peat mosss moist too, but it wasnt possible I'm at school too much. I need a dry substrate. Could I just use bark?
> ...



I seriously dont think its that bad. I soak the rf twice a day for him to get a drink and the humidity here is 70%...his skin isnt dry or pealing, so. Its pretty healthy looking. here, take a look http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxroPt_-cZk&feature=channel


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## galvinkaos (Mar 10, 2009)

I really like your videos (I looked at a couple) and your torts. Very nice looking. You really should look at some of the care sheets and advice posted by the experienced people here. You have 2 different species with different care and housing recommendations housed together. Although right now it doesn't appear that it is creating any problems. It can cause long term issues with them. The people here have made the mistakes and learned from them and post the results of their experience so that those of us that are new to tortoises don't make the same mistakes. It is always up to you what advice you take and what you don't, but you are asking so you obviously want to do right by Wall-E and Sgt. Pepper. Yvonne is very experienced and will steer you in the right direction about your torts, as will several others here. I have DT and have learned alot here to keep the kids happy and healthy.  And I appreciate every post I read.

Dawna


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## Yvonne G (Mar 11, 2009)

DuttonWebb said:


> I seriously dont think its that bad. I soak the rf twice a day for him to get a drink and the humidity here is 70%...his skin isnt dry or pealing, so.



Both of your tortoises are babies. Only time will show you that by not having a moist substrate was harmful to them. If you have time to soak the RF twice a day, then you have time to pour a glass of water on the substrate and mix it up. Your substrate in the video looks fine to me, you just have to pour on some water every day. The top layer will dry out, but it will be moist underneath, and that's what they need for healthy growth. Both of the tortoises that you have are two of the worst for pyramiding. And pyramiding can be avoided by feeding the correct diet, providing humidity and plenty of exercise. Humidity plays a major role.

Yvonne


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## DuttonWebb (Mar 11, 2009)

emysemys said:


> DuttonWebb said:
> 
> 
> > I seriously dont think its that bad. I soak the rf twice a day for him to get a drink and the humidity here is 70%...his skin isnt dry or pealing, so.
> ...


Ok. So do I have to use sand? I took them off of the pellets and I placed a towel in the enclosure with a moist underlayer on one end that keeps the top layer fairly moist and humid inside their hide. I think everyone here is over reacting a bit from what I said. It may sound like I dont take care of my tortoises well. I try to do the best for my tortoises. The breeder that I received my sulcata from said I was doing great. Apparently not... Anyways I am going to switch -cypress mulch, maybe some kinda of bark, MAYBE sand? It may have been the peat moss creating all the dust.
They also get plenty of excercise. They romp around my room while I do homework. Anyways, tell me exactly what to do, where I can get it, and such.


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## DuttonWebb (Mar 11, 2009)

galvinkaos said:


> I really like your videos (I looked at a couple) and your torts. Very nice looking. You really should look at some of the care sheets and advice posted by the experienced people here. You have 2 different species with different care and housing recommendations housed together. Although right now it doesn't appear that it is creating any problems. It can cause long term issues with them. The people here have made the mistakes and learned from them and post the results of their experience so that those of us that are new to tortoises don't make the same mistakes. It is always up to you what advice you take and what you don't, but you are asking so you obviously want to do right by Wall-E and Sgt. Pepper. Yvonne is very experienced and will steer you in the right direction about your torts, as will several others here. I have DT and have learned alot here to keep the kids happy and healthy.  And I appreciate every post I read.
> 
> Dawna



New questions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuOejsjvhq4


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## Crazy1 (Mar 11, 2009)

DuttonWebb, you came to us and asked for help. We are trying to give it. Please understand no one is pointing a finger at you and saying you donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t care about your torts. And by asking these questions it shows us you do care and are trying to do the best by them. And that is what we are trying to do. To give you the help you asked for and some of the experience we have gained over the years. Both Maggie and Yvonne have years of experience as do many others on our forum. They really are just trying to help you make a better life for your torts.

As Maggie stated: 'fine grade orchid bark or eco earth mixed 50/50 with sand' and Yvonne stated: 'Orchid Bark, Cypress Mulch or 50/50 mix of play sand/dirt or coir, you can solve your problem'. I have extreme allergies to dust. I use a mix of 50/50 coir and play sand and pour water on it daily and have had no reactions from it, thus no dust problems. 
1) You can get play sand at home depot, Lowes, or most hardware stores.
2) coir is sold also as bed a beast or coconut fiber in bricks at Petsmart and Petco to name but two.
3) Orchid bard and cypress mulch you can also get from hardware or garden stores.

I am glad you allow your torts to get lots of exercise by romping around your room. However I do not suggest anyone let their torts on their floors. Floors are generally too cool and drafty and have hidden dangers like strings, fibers, things that are dropped like; small screws, thumb tacks, hair, etc. these are things that a tort can ingest and can cause impactions or problems, plus a misplaced foot or stumble could cause a tragedy. Exercise is better done in a large enclosure or in a safe outside area like a portable tort pen, which could be made or bought at Petco or online.


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## DuttonWebb (Mar 11, 2009)

Crazy1 said:


> DuttonWebb, you came to us and asked for help. We are trying to give it. Please understand no one is pointing a finger at you and saying you donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t care about your torts. And by asking these questions it shows us you do care and are trying to do the best by them. And that is what we are trying to do. To give you the help you asked for and some of the experience we have gained over the years. Both Maggie and Yvonne have years of experience as do many others on our forum. They really are just trying to help you make a better life for your torts.
> 
> As Maggie stated: 'fine grade orchid bark or eco earth mixed 50/50 with sand' and Yvonne stated: 'Orchid Bark, Cypress Mulch or 50/50 mix of play sand/dirt or coir, you can solve your problem'. I have extreme allergies to dust. I use a mix of 50/50 coir and play sand and pour water on it daily and have had no reactions from it, thus no dust problems.
> 1) You can get play sand at home depot, Lowes, or most hardware stores.
> ...


Thanks. I think I am going to go with cypress mulch and play sand. Now. I also need to know about how deep. And did you see my video?
Also. with sand I have to feed them on a different surface? because When I had sand last time it would stick to their mouths and get in their food. That can't be good.


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## Crazy1 (Mar 11, 2009)

Datton, I believe you can use just cypress mulch without the sand. Yvonne or Maggie could answer that one better than I. I am at work and unfortunatly can not view the video until I get home. I would put it deep enough for him to completely cover himself. You should be feeding your tort on a hard surface like a piece of tile or slate. The hardware stores carry slate tiles that are really cheep and it will help keep his beak (mouth) trimmed down too. As will a cuttlebone if/when he uses it.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 11, 2009)

Hi DuttonWebb: First of all, let me say that I don't have my speakers hooked up because they're really cheap ones and they buzz and howl (driving me crazy!!!), so I don't know what you said on your video. However, I must complement you on your inventiveness. Your avatar looks so much like you. Did you do that yourself? You must be quite the artist. Very good job!!

Next, I personally don't like to use sand because I've seen radiographs of babies who had sand impactions. My personal choice for tortoise substrate is 100% cypress mulch. This can be purchased at pet stores under the label Zoo Med Forest Floor or T-Rex Jungle Bedding.

I have to give you many, many good tortoise points for trying to take such good care of your babies. I have an 18 year old grandson who has a couple aquariums of some kind of lizard, I think bearded dragon and gecko, and he lets them go for days without food and water or cleaning the tanks. I've asked him many times to let me try to find homes for them, but he doesn't think he's doing anything wrong. So your interest in your tortoises just makes me so proud!!! This is a big happy gramma smile: 

I'm very glad you found us. You will make a welcome addition to our little family here. And your tortoises are very cute!

Yvonne


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## Crazy1 (Mar 11, 2009)

Dutton, I just go home and had to watch your video. Unfortunately like Yvonne, I don't have my speakers set up either, so I couldn't listen to your questions. Here are two different sites that show or tell how a Sully and a Redfoot should be kept.
http://www.africantortoise.com
http://www.sulcata-station.org/faq.html
www.redfoots.com
www.turtletary.com

Keeping them on a damp towel for any length of time is not a good idea, could cause shell rot, but since you are going to use Cypress Mulch that should not be a problem. The key is keeping the under layers damp and the layer that touches the torts dry or drier (the heat from the lamps or ceramic heat emitters will try out the top layers). But Redfoots and Sullys both need such different habitats and diets that you really need to set them up separately.
You are on the right, track keep up the good work and you will soon have happy, healthy torts, and habitats you can be proud to show off .


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## DuttonWebb (Mar 11, 2009)

emysemys said:


> Hi DuttonWebb: First of all, let me say that I don't have my speakers hooked up because they're really cheap ones and they buzz and howl (driving me crazy!!!), so I don't know what you said on your video. However, I must complement you on your inventiveness. Your avatar looks so much like you. Did you do that yourself? You must be quite the artist. Very good job!!
> 
> Next, I personally don't like to use sand because I've seen radiographs of babies who had sand impactions. My personal choice for tortoise substrate is 100% cypress mulch. This can be purchased at pet stores under the label Zoo Med Forest Floor or T-Rex Jungle Bedding.
> 
> ...



 The avatar was colored in photoshop by me, but the lines came from an album cover. I love my torts. The tortoise has been my favorite animal since i was a young child. I owned a texas river cooter for 6 years, but I was not able to take good enough care for it and I released it into the river near our house. I believe I found him about a year later, same species, but slightly larger and doing much better! I couldnt offer him the right conditions, I was just too young to understand. Now that I have money to spend, I hope to have a hundred pound sulcata living in my parents backyard for the rest of time!



Crazy1 said:


> Dutton, I just go home and had to watch your video. Unfortunately like Yvonne, I don't have my speakers set up either, so I couldn't listen to your questions. Here are two different sites that show or tell how a Sully and a Redfoot should be kept.
> http://www.africantortoise.com
> http://www.sulcata-station.org/faq.html
> www.redfoots.com
> ...


When summer comes I am going to build new enclosures for both tortoises. I have the tools to do so (I built the stand for my torts) so that I can tend to their seperate needs. I explained only wetting the bottom layer.  I also feed them basically 3-4 parts collard greens mixed with 1 part romaine lettuce with a little calcium dust on top. My main concern is just keeping my redfoot off of the rabbit pellet substrate that he regularly ate. He actually stopped eating his store bought redfoot food. I will break this habbit. Is it safe to place a new enclosure near a window? the window faces north so there isnt very much sun that hits.


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## Meg90 (Mar 11, 2009)

You should be feeding both of them spring mix as a staple diet, along with different greens every other week or so. Too much of one thing can cause problems....

Also, I would separate them.

Your Redfoot needs high humidity. He does not like bright lights. (this is the reason, that even though I love the species, I do not own. Because I do not think I could create the right environment.)

While your sulcata is a desert species, and enjoys high-light conditions. He also only would need one humid area (a humid hide) instead of having his whole enclosure as humid as the Red Foot.

To keep them together because they are "buddies" is faulty logic. Tortoises are solitary from day one. They do not live in groups in the wild, even as babies. All species of turtles and tortoises are like this. They are reptiles, baby torts, not puppies who need play mates.

To say that you haven't seen any harm now, is faulty as well. If one, or both of your animals begin to pyramid, you cannot erase that. The damage is there forever.

These species do not even come from the same continent. 

What makes you think that they would do well under the same conditions?


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## Crazy1 (Mar 11, 2009)

I personally do not like to have my torts by the windows as it makes it difficult to regulate the heat. Sullys need a variety of food. Spring mix when they are small with collard greens or endive mixed in and a little grass but when he get a bit bigger you will want to add more grasses and hays. But Redfoots, as you know, need meat (which is how they get most of their UVB, rather than lights) So the Cat Food Terry at turtletary suggests works well. He may have been eating the rabbit pellets because they are so high in plant protein (just a guess). Glad to hear you are planning on seperating the two and I am looking forward to seeing your enclosures for them.


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## Meg90 (Mar 11, 2009)

Just watched your video, to the tortoise forum, and there are all sorts of things that are wrong with your set up, despite the obvious incorrect housing of the two species.

One: too small. 
two: not enough hides....
three: no water dish? Red foots like to soak.

Also, do you soak your tortoises? For having babies you should be doing it daily, in warm, treated water for about 15 minutes. This helps keep them hydrated.

Also, the light was VERY dim. Your sulcata seems especially dark, for such a young baby. They darken from producing extra pigment in their shells to absorb more heat. What are you using for a light?

This is also where both species vary IMPORTANTLY. Your red foot will not do well under a Mercury vapor bulb. This is what your sulcata needs. I would recommend a 100 W Trex bulb.

Your red foot, should have a ceramic heat emitter (no light comes from this) and a UVB tube light (they are not as bright as the MVB bulbs)


Do you have any more questions? It really upset me to see that you are looking for suggestions on what you should get for your next reptile, when clearly your tortoises are lacking necessities. 

I understand the urge to collect (i myself have several species) but if your setups are subpar, you are not doing any of the animals you own any favors.


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## DuttonWebb (Mar 11, 2009)

Meg90 said:


> You should be feeding both of them spring mix as a staple diet, along with different greens every other week or so. Too much of one thing can cause problems....
> 
> Also, I would separate them.
> 
> ...



No worries. I am seperating them soon. I need a new set of lamps for that and a new stand (that can wait) . The only reason I keep them together was that a breeder told me they both did well on rabbit pellets. I was thinking, "cool, i'll put them together. If you watch this from a while back, I had the right idea going. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJukd-Zlbkc[hr]


Meg90 said:


> Just watched your video, to the tortoise forum, and there are all sorts of things that are wrong with your set up, despite the obvious incorrect housing of the two species.
> 
> One: too small.
> two: not enough hides....
> ...



chill out. that was months ago. AND YES I SOAK THEM.


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## Crazy1 (Mar 11, 2009)

Dutton, that last video was a much better habitat for both. Try using long strand Sphagnum moss (Home Depot or Lowes) for the Redfoot. It will retain moisture and humidity and not mold or mildew and no dust. Your Redfoot will always need about 80-85% humidity and low light. Where youÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re Sully, well you know, Loves the sun and desert but needs a humid hide about 70% humidity. I know it takes a while to get things just the way you want them and to get them so the torts are in a more natural habitat and I applaud you for working towards that. Like you, we are all passionate about torts and only want what is best for them. I suggest you get, if you do not already have, a couple of thermometers an hydrometers to get good temps and humidity for your little ones. And as young torts things are more critical, like humidity, diet, exercise. As during the first year or two the development of your tort is at its most critical stage for pyramiding, MBD or Kidney failure. As I said, I'm sure you understand we only want what's best for your shelled babies, as do you.


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## Meg90 (Mar 11, 2009)

Um, I watched the video you posted ten HOURS ago.

And a damp towel is not suitable. Have you ever heard of shell rot? A tortoise contracts it from incorrect conditions.


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## Crazy1 (Mar 11, 2009)

OK Meg, easy. I know how passionate about torts you are and Dutton is working at making a suitable enclosure for his torts. I just sent you a PM Meg, please read before you post more in this thread.


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## DuttonWebb (Mar 11, 2009)

Meg90 said:


> Um, I watched the video you posted ten HOURS ago.
> 
> And a damp towel is not suitable. Have you ever heard of shell rot? A tortoise contracts it from incorrect conditions.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fIfIOq2LK8


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## Meg90 (Mar 11, 2009)

saw that. my name is meg btw. I can see that you care about your animals. But why did you not care enough before now in march, when you've had them since what, sept? 

I'm sorry if I came off as bitey (want to keep the language pg, i can guess what you thought I was being) but I am just trying to help try and educate you about your torts.


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## DuttonWebb (Mar 11, 2009)

Meg90 said:


> saw that. my name is meg btw. I can see that you care about your animals. But why did you not care enough before now in march, when you've had them since what, sept?
> 
> I'm sorry if I came off as bitey (want to keep the language pg, i can guess what you thought I was being) but I am just trying to help try and educate you about your torts.



Yeah I understand. When people are using a forum or a form of text, its easy to lose meaning or to take on a different attitude. Its easy to lose the acountability of your true personality, thats why I use youtube so much. It offers a more personal and accurate look into the message. Even if you are just being nice because you got messaged by Crazy1. Anyways its cool.


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## Meg90 (Mar 11, 2009)

I consider Robyn a friend, I am not a little kid that got scolded for putting her hand in the cookie jar. She just dropped me a bit of advice. 

I can be kind of, err...high strung for lack of a better word. I am just REALLY serious about this hobby, and it upsets me to see subpar care of anything that doesn't have a voice of its own to express how it feels. In my opinion, OK is not good enough. I wouldn't want to live in an OK apartment, so I make sure that my animals are not subjected to that kind of thing either.

I'm glad that you are making changes. Check out the enclosure section, there are a bunch of great pics of setups for sulcatas, and red foots. Also, there is a fool proof care sheet for RFs here, that helps completely eliminate the chances of pyramiding...I think it even has a detailed diet listed as well. I'm sure someone can get you the link.....


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## galvinkaos (Mar 11, 2009)

I hope you don't think I was criticizing you. I was really trying not to come across that way. It is hard to express inflection on a post. 
You said on your video it is trial and error, I was trying to let you know that there are those who have made the errors and give advice so we don't have to make them. I commend you for asking questions and for taking such good care of your torts. Yvonne, Maggie, Danny and Robyn and the list goes on are very experienced and will give you excellent advise. They will also tell you if they don't know.  

Dawna


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## DuttonWebb (Mar 12, 2009)

I've got the cypress mulch in. It's gonna create dust I know it, but whatever....healthy torts is more important.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 12, 2009)

DuttonWebb said:


> I've got the cypress mulch in. It's gonna create dust I know it, but whatever....healthy torts is more important.



Actually, cypress mulch isn't dusty at all. Every morning just pour a glass or two of water on it and mix it up with your hand.

Yvonne


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## DuttonWebb (Mar 12, 2009)

emysemys said:


> DuttonWebb said:
> 
> 
> > I've got the cypress mulch in. It's gonna create dust I know it, but whatever....healthy torts is more important.
> ...



you sure? this stuff has so much dirt in it :/


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## Crazy1 (Mar 13, 2009)

Dutton, as you know I am allergic to dust so I do understand the thing about dust, but can I ask what is the problem you are having or concerned with regarding the small amount of dust that a small enclosure would produce, regardless of the substrate?


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## DuttonWebb (Mar 13, 2009)

Crazy1 said:


> Dutton, as you know I am allergic to dust so I do understand the thing about dust, but can I ask what is the problem you are having or concerned with regarding the small amount of dust that a small enclosure would produce, regardless of the substrate?



I guess a little dust is fine, but last time it got rediculous and it was a nightmare (that was sand and peat moss though so I guess that is completely different). Everyday there was a layer of dust on everything. Its cool though.


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## dannomite (Mar 17, 2009)

I worked for a landscape supply company for over 7 years, we bagged a lot of products with a commercial bagging machine and when we did the Peat Moss we had to wear doctor's masks and goggles as the dust was crazy. I think you'll notice a big difference after getting rid of the Peat.


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