# how to differentiate a sulcata from Sonoran Desert tortoise



## Anet (Aug 20, 2019)

I was gifted two tortoises at different times and one has grown immensely. I know for a fact that the smaller tortoise is 3 yrs old and is a Sonoran desert tortoise. I was told that the bigger one is also a desert tortoise and is 2 years old. However the bigger one has doubled his body size. I am wondering if the bigger one is a sulcata because of rapid growth. Thank you


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## Toddrickfl1 (Aug 20, 2019)

The larger one is a Sulcata, smaller one is a desert tortoise.


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## waswondering (Aug 20, 2019)

Anet said:


> I was gifted two tortoises at different times and one has grown immensely. I know for a fact that the smaller tortoise is 3 yrs old and is a Sonoran desert tortoise. I was told that the bigger one is also a desert tortoise and is 2 years old. However the bigger one has doubled his body size. I am wondering if the bigger one is a sulcata because of rapid growth. Thank you


The lager one is a sulcata, the smaller one is a desert tortoise. You can tell from the color, size, and the legs of the sulcata. Desert tortoise are a brown/black color. Most sulcatas are much lighter in color then your but the fact that theres color at all means it's a sulcata. 

Hope this helps, 
Any other question please ask


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## Action (Aug 20, 2019)

So I know nothing so am just asking....I thought Sulcatas were v shaped at the neck ? Don't know the terminology yet....lol....that 1 seems to have an extra something there.
Thanks
Jack


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## Anet (Aug 20, 2019)

Wow, thanks so much for this. The owner of the sulcata said that she had two and had them outside during winter. One didn't make it. So it makes sense since sulcatas don't brumate.


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## waswondering (Aug 20, 2019)

Anet said:


> Wow, thanks so much for this. The owner of the sulcata said that she had two and had them outside during winter. One didn't make it. So it makes sense since sulcatas don't brumate.


Sulcatas are really easy in winter. All you have to do I put a heat light in an enclosed area and move them in every night if they leave.


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## waswondering (Aug 20, 2019)

Action said:


> So I know nothing so am just asking....I thought Sulcatas were v shaped at the neck ? Don't know the terminology yet....lol....that 1 seems to have an extra something there.
> Thanks
> Jack


I'm not really sure if I know where the v is supposed to be but if you tell me I can check my adult sulcatas. I've never heard of this.


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## Action (Aug 20, 2019)

If you look at the pic from the top there is a flat thinging in the center of the neck......Sulcatas dont have that.....I thought that was a sign of a desert tortoise ? Just asking.....cause I don't know.
Jack


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## SweetGreekTorts (Aug 20, 2019)

Can you post photos of the larger tortoise's head and front legs? From above they appear to have the same color, shape, and texture as the desert tortoise. Sulcata tortoises have more gold-colored skin and larger scales on their legs. Desert tortoises have darker grey skin and smaller, smoother leg scales. The larger tortoise could be a sulcata-desert tortoise hybrid with it's carapace coloring, but more photos from other angles are needed to verify.

The marginal scutes of the larger tortoise are also like the desert tortoise and not a sulcata.


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## SweetGreekTorts (Aug 20, 2019)

Action said:


> If you look at the pic from the top there is a flat thinging in the center of the neck......Sulcatas dont have that.....I thought that was a sign of a desert tortoise ? Just asking.....cause I don't know.
> Jack


Are you referring to the nuchal scute? True, sulcatas do not have those, while desert tortoises do.


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## Tom (Aug 20, 2019)

waswondering said:


> Sulcatas are really easy in winter. All you have to do I put a heat light in an enclosed area and move them in every night if they leave.


Not quite that easy. That is how people burn the top of the carapace, and it is still too cold on those winter nights. Something like this will work much better:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/

Or this for someone who has two tortoises to house separately:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/double-door-night-box.129054/


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## Tom (Aug 20, 2019)

We need pics showing the front of the tortoises too. Leg scales are the easiest way to tell when they are this size. Color is highly variable on both species.

In either case, regardless of what they are, they should not be living as a pair. Tortoises should never be kept in pairs.


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## wellington (Aug 20, 2019)

Agree with Tom. Can't tell by your pics if they are sulcata or not. Need pics from the front showing front legs 
The DT will have smooth legs scales while the sullies will protrude and be pointy


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## Tom (Aug 20, 2019)

Also, most people don't start either of the two species we are discussing with enough humidity or hydration. If one managed to get a little more hydration early on, it could easily grow at two or three times the rate of the one that was started drier.

The chronic stress of living as a pair can also cause one to grow much slower.

When left to hibernate outdoors, above ground, subject to the whims of Mother Nature, death is a common outcome, even for species that hibernate in the wild. DTs hibernate deep underground out in the wild. Temps down there are cold, consistent and stable. Above ground the temps swing wildly from day to night and even day to day. 85 degrees in January one day, 35 degrees that night, and 50 degrees and rainy a few days later. These extremes take a toll and many don't survive.


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## Action (Aug 20, 2019)

SweetGreekTorts said:


> Are you referring to the nuchal scute? True, sulcatas do not have those, while desert tortoises do.



If that is what it is called then yes....Thank you.
Jack


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## waswondering (Aug 20, 2019)

Tom said:


> Not quite that easy. That is how people burn the top of the carapace, and it is still too cold on those winter nights. Something like this will work much better:
> https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/.
> 
> Or this for someone who has two tortoises to house separately:
> https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/double-door-night-box.129054/



You are right of course. I didnt tell in enough detail what I meant. The way I do it is have the lights inside there hut 5 feet off the ground then have a layer of wood that has a metal cover directly under the lights and there is a 6 inch gap on all sides of the wood bord and that's where the heat comes from. The wood its 1/2 inch thick so most of the heat is lost to it and it there for radiates a small amount of heat as well. It works well for me


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## Yvonne G (Aug 20, 2019)

It's hard to tell from the picture, but I'm thinking both of them are desert tortoises. The smaller one is very small for three years old. I have two hatchlings from last September that are that size. So he's stunted from not having received the best care. If you look closely you can see the front leg scales on the larger one and they are not raised or large like a sulcata would have.

@Anet : I love your invention - the clothes pin to hold greens up off the ground.


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## Maro2Bear (Aug 21, 2019)

Yvonne G said:


> It's hard to tell from the picture, but I'm thinking both of them are desert tortoises. The smaller one is very small for three years old. I have two hatchlings from last September that are that size. So he's stunted from not having received the best care. If you look closely you can see the front leg scales on the larger one and they are not raised or large like a sulcata would have.
> 
> @Anet : I love your invention - the clothes pin to hold greens up off the ground.



Yep, i agree with Yvonne. I don’t see any big scaly claws and forearms/legs on either one either.


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## Anet (Aug 27, 2019)

Tom said:


> We need pics showing the front of the tortoises too. Leg scales are the easiest way to tell when they are this size. Color is highly variable on both species.
> 
> In either case, regardless of what they are, they should not be living as a pair. Tortoises should never be kept in pairs.


Well, thinking that the larger one is a sulcata, I gave it to a good home. Now I have one DT like it should be.


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## Markw84 (Aug 27, 2019)

Both are desert tortoises. Neither of those are sulcata. A view of the front legs will make it obvious for most, but the nuchal scute is a dead give-a-way that it is not sulcata!.


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## Tom (Aug 27, 2019)

Anet said:


> Well, thinking that the larger one is a sulcata, I gave it to a good home. Now I have one DT like it should be.


The person you gave it to needs to know that its not a sulcata. Both for care and feeding and also to make sure they know they can never sell it. DTs can only be given away for free.


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## Anet (Aug 27, 2019)

Tom said:


> The person you gave it to needs to know that its not a sulcata. Both for care and feeding and also to make sure they know they can never sell it. DTs can only be given away for free.


Yea, she was already informed. The smaller DT is considerably smaller and I believe they are the same age, around 3yrs. He eats well and is active. How much should a 3 year on DT weigh? Should he be brumated?


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## ascott (Aug 27, 2019)

Anet said:


> Yea, she was already informed. The smaller DT is considerably smaller and I believe they are the same age, around 3yrs. He eats well and is active. How much should a 3 year on DT weigh? Should he be brumated?



There is "generally" an average size for most species of tortoise...but also playing into the size is the genes of that particular tortoise....and that can offer up a variation that can offer up a larger/smaller individual creature. If the tortoise is eating, hydrating and mobile and is acting normal in every way--then the size alone would not worry me.

If the tort slows down during the natural slow down time, then you can offer up a short term "starter" brumation period...this will allow you to hone your skills to offer up/support a true brumation as the tortoise ages...I do not know where in the world this tortoise lives, but most outdoor set ups are a bit tricky and I would not suggest you try outdoors, especially in the beginning.


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## ascott (Aug 27, 2019)

Anet said:


> I was gifted two tortoises at different times and one has grown immensely. I know for a fact that the smaller tortoise is 3 yrs old and is a Sonoran desert tortoise. I was told that the bigger one is also a desert tortoise and is 2 years old. However the bigger one has doubled his body size. I am wondering if the bigger one is a sulcata because of rapid growth. Thank you
> 
> View attachment 278861
> View attachment 278862
> View attachment 278863




I know you have already rehomed one....but if these two Desert Torts occupied the same space at the same time for any length of time....you will absolutely have ended up with one larger and or one growing faster than the other....this is a species that is absolutely a species that should not be housed as a pair (especially if two males=gladiators)...and even more so of a species that "generally" is a nomadic creature and thrives in that set up....hugely territorial, super tenacious and confident....a wonderful design for a creature that is faced with harsh surroundings as their backdrop to survive in...both torts are beautiful by the way


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## Tom (Aug 27, 2019)

Anet said:


> Yea, she was already informed. The smaller DT is considerably smaller and I believe they are the same age, around 3yrs. He eats well and is active. How much should a 3 year on DT weigh? Should he be brumated?


Most people don't start DT hatchlings correctly. Usually much too dry and outside all day. Both of these will stunt their growth. Most DT babies don't survive for very long because of this. Sounds like the bigger one managed to get a little more hydration or a little better start in some way or other, and the little one was started in the typical dry fashion.

The stress of living as a pair could contribute to it too.

If the tortoise seems healthy, I would go ahead and hibernate it, but do it correctly, indoors, under controlled conditions, at the correct temperature.


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## TammyJ (Aug 29, 2019)

Anet said:


> Well, thinking that the larger one is a sulcata, I gave it to a good home. Now I have one DT like it should be.


Well then! I hope the good home knows they have a desert tortoise!


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## Anet (Aug 30, 2019)

Tom said:


> Most people don't start DT hatchlings correctly. Usually much too dry and outside all day. Both of these will stunt their growth. Most DT babies don't survive for very long because of this. Sounds like the bigger one managed to get a little more hydration or a little better start in some way or other, and the little one was started in the typical dry fashion.
> 
> The stress of living as a pair could contribute to it too.
> 
> If the tortoise seems healthy, I would go ahead and hibernate it, but do it correctly, indoors, under controlled conditions, at the correct temperature.


I am going to brumate it in a refrigerator


Tom said:


> Most people don't start DT hatchlings correctly. Usually much too dry and outside all day. Both of these will stunt their growth. Most DT babies don't survive for very long because of this. Sounds like the bigger one managed to get a little more hydration or a little better start in some way or other, and the little one was started in the typical dry fashion.
> 
> The stress of living as a pair could contribute to it too.
> 
> If the tortoise seems healthy, I would go ahead and hibernate it, but do it correctly, indoors, under controlled conditions, at the correct temperature.


I am going to brumate it in a refrigerator. Even though the SW desert of AZ is warmer than most of the US it still does get below 50 on some occasions. Thanks for your post!


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## Tom (Aug 30, 2019)

Anet said:


> I am going to brumate it in a refrigerator
> 
> I am going to brumate it in a refrigerator. Even though the SW desert of AZ is warmer than most of the US it still does get below 50 on some occasions. Thanks for your post!


The problem isn't that it gets below 50. Below 50 is necessary for hibernation. The problem is that it gets so far above 50 where you are most winter days.


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## Anet (Sep 2, 2019)

Tom said:


> The problem isn't that it gets below 50. Below 50 is necessary for hibernation. The problem is that it gets so far above 50 where you are most winter days.


Oh, I never thought of the warming aspect of our winters. So the fluctuation in temperatures is the problem. Would the recommendation be brumation in a refrigerator?


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## Tom (Sep 2, 2019)

Anet said:


> Oh, I never thought of the warming aspect of our winters. So the fluctuation in temperatures is the problem. Would the recommendation be brumation in a refrigerator?


Yes, but there is a lead in and a lead out to it. Here is a more in depth explanation. You can rad the whole thread, but I explain it all in post #19:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/looking-for-an-rt-hibernation-mentor.128790/


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