# Tortoise hybrids?



## theelectraco (May 7, 2013)

First off I'd like to state that I don't condone cross breeding species, I am asking purely out of amusement. 

is it possible for different species of tortoises to reproduce with each other. I have only heard of leopard and Sulcatas cross breeding. Can any other species breed with others, can they all?


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## AustinASU (May 7, 2013)

Yeah your sri's can, ummm most of your greek species are crossed (i.e. golden greek), travencore's x Forsteins, yellow foots x red foots...etc


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## theelectraco (May 7, 2013)

What about ones that aren't similar like a sulcata and a Redfoot


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## sibi (May 7, 2013)

I don't know the genetic makeup of all torts, but I would imagine that some torts can cross-breed. My question would be, Why? Why would anyone cross-breed torts? It's like, if you allow a poodle to mate with a German Shepard, you'll get a mutt. There's nothing special about a mutt besides feeling love for the animal. 

If the DNA of a species is similar to another tort, I don't see why it would be impossible to cross-breed. Of course, size would be a big factor in successful breeding. I mean, can a small Russian mate with a sulcata?


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## theelectraco (May 7, 2013)

I'm not really concerned about "why" as I said, I don't plan on doing it and don't condone it, I was just wondering if its possible.


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## AustinASU (May 8, 2013)

I'd say there would be a slim chance, and i mean extremely slim. If anything i would say any tortoise that inhabits the same territory as another species ...they are of a relative genus/phylum so they'd be easier to hybridize. Now if they were to ever get down artificial insemination for reptiles.....it would be a free game so speaking......dear god it would be another ball python nightmare.


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## Terry Allan Hall (May 8, 2013)

The Europeans (the various Greeks, all three Hermann's, the two Steppea, the Marginated and the Egyptian) can and have, Redfoots and Yellowfoots can and have, American Deserts can and have, American Box turtles can and have, obviously Sulcatas and Leopards have, believe I've heard of some Asians have succesfully crossed.

I'm aware of a few more "distant" cross attempts (there was someone attempting to cross an Eastern Box with a Steppe tortoise, but with no results, and I'm thinking that'd be nearly impossible, as the two are VERY "distant"...otoh, an assortment of ratsnake/bullsnake, ratsnake/kingsnake and other unlikely hybrids are available these days, so one can't completely rule such "similarily distant" matings out...but most tortoise enthusiasts agree it's a bad idea for ANY hybridization to be intentionally allowed.


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## Yvonne G (May 8, 2013)

We've had numerous discussions on this subject, and a couple of them have gotten very heated.

Go to the "search" page, and scroll down to the bottom under the ad(don't use the top search boxes) where it says "search tortoise forum." Type in "tortoise hybrids." The results come back with 10 or so links to threads on this subject.


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## yagyujubei (May 8, 2013)

I have seen pics of Leopard x Redfoot.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (May 8, 2013)

AustinASU said:


> Yeah your sri's can, ummm most of your greek species are crossed (i.e. golden greek), travencore's x Forsteins, yellow foots x red foots...etc



The different types of Greeks are all subspecies within the same species (_Testudo graeca_). This is unlike your other examples of travancore x Forsten and redfoot x yellowfoot, both of which are pairs of different species within the same genus. Hybrids within the genus _Testudo_ (Russians, Hermanns, Greeks, and marginateds) have unfortunately also been recorded in captivity. The different subspecies of Greek can all interbreed and form fertile hybrids, although that's not a good idea for conservation purposes. This is in contrast to hybridizing species within a genus, which can have reduced fertility. Hybrids of species from different genera are not only sterile, but might not even by viable.



sibi said:


> I don't know the genetic makeup of all torts, but I would imagine that some torts can cross-breed. My question would be, Why? Why would anyone cross-breed torts? It's like, if you allow a poodle to mate with a German Shepard, you'll get a mutt. There's nothing special about a mutt besides feeling love for the animal.



There is no comparison between hybridizing wild species, and crossing domestic breeds. All dogs are domestic wolves (_Canis lupus_), therefore they are all of the same species. The different breeds of dog were simply selected by humans for different tasks (herding, guarding, companionship, etc). Therefore, barring gross differences in size, they can all freely interbreed and yield fully fertile and viable offspring. Although there are reasons to perpetuate certain breeds, from a genetic standpoint mutts are actually better off. This is because they are less inbred, and less likely to exhibit genetic disorders. Pure-breeding has proven to be a disaster for many lines of domestic wolves (dogs). Out-crossing usually produces healthier offspring.

This is a totally different ballgame from hybridizing different species of tortoise, for example. These animals have been separated for not just a few centuries, but for hundreds of thousands to millions of years. Hybridizing is not good for them as individuals or as species.


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## FLINTUS (May 8, 2013)

yagyujubei said:


> I have seen pics of Leopard x Redfoot.


same, and a radiated x red foot
red foot x leopard


http://www.shelledwarriors.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=67842


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## Terry Allan Hall (May 8, 2013)

Some of what I think are interesting hybrids (tongue firmly in cheek, in some cases)...







*Sire (leopard) and his three leopard/redfoot hybrid rugrats*






*The famous "Lepcata"*






*Redfoot/Yellowfoot hybrid*






*Cow/tortoise hybrid...*






*Peacata, presumably...Tom needs a few of these!*​


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## theelectraco (May 8, 2013)

Lol the peacata is a good one haha


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## Terry Allan Hall (May 8, 2013)

theelectraco said:


> Lol the peacata is a good one haha



It's always interesting what you can find on Google Images...


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## Yvonne G (May 8, 2013)

I watched a TV show about a tiger/lion cross and the resultant offspring. They said that the gene that tells the animal to stop growing comes from the parent that WASN'T used to make the baby. I can't remember exactly what was said, but let's say that the mother was a lion and the father was a tiger. That means that the gene that tells the baby animal to stop growing would have come from the *lion* father, except the father in this case was a tiger. So the baby Liger just keeps growing and growing. The animal used for the TV show was huge!!

That might be what is happening to the redfoot/leopard babies.


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## Terry Allan Hall (May 8, 2013)

Yvonne G said:


> I watched a TV show about a tiger/lion cross and the resultant offspring. They said that the gene that tells the animal to stop growing comes from the parent that WASN'T used to make the baby. I can't remember exactly what was said, but let's say that the mother was a lion and the father was a tiger. That means that the gene that tells the baby animal to stop growing would have come from the *lion* father, except the father in this case was a tiger. So the baby Liger just keeps growing and growing. The animal used for the TV show was huge!!
> 
> That might be what is happening to the redfoot/leopard babies.



That was a Ligon (Lion sire/Tiger dam)...and yeah, the "stop growing" gene wasn't expressed, so Ligons presumably grow their entire lives (which will be much shorter than either a tiger or a lion, apparently).

I'm wondering if the Leopcata will be the same, as well. Interesting to see in the next few years.


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## Terry Allan Hall (May 8, 2013)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> Yvonne G said:
> 
> 
> > I watched a TV show about a tiger/lion cross and the resultant offspring. They said that the gene that tells the animal to stop growing comes from the parent that WASN'T used to make the baby. I can't remember exactly what was said, but let's say that the mother was a lion and the father was a tiger. That means that the gene that tells the baby animal to stop growing would have come from the *lion* father, except the father in this case was a tiger. So the baby Liger just keeps growing and growing. The animal used for the TV show was huge!!
> ...



Ooooops, I meant* Liger*, not *Ligon*...*Tigons* are the opposite, with the tiger being the sire and the lioness being the dam, and (I understand, as I've never actually seen one in the flesh) stay considerably smaller. The "stop growing" gene is expressed in Tigons.










*Liger*






*Tigon*​


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## EricIvins (May 8, 2013)

That Red/Yellowfoot Hybrid looks an awful lot like an "orange" Yellowfoot hatchling......


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## GeoTerraTestudo (May 8, 2013)

Ligers and tigons have a lot of health problems, and as mentioned above, they are also short-lived. They may look big and impressive, but on the inside, they are not well.


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## Terry Allan Hall (May 8, 2013)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> Ligers and tigons have a lot of health problems, and as mentioned above, they are also short-lived. They may look big and impressive, but on the inside, they are not well.



That's what I'm told...there's a couple cat santuaries near us (one in Bridgeport, the other in Aurora) and both have a couple of HUGE Ligers (and one has a Tigon and a Leopon, a Leopard/Lion X) and the keepers say that these mixed cats require a lot more medical care than the "pure" stock do, and that the Ligers are on restricted diets to try to keep them from getting too obese, which is very hard of their joints. One is said to weigh 960#!

Haven't seen the Tigon yet, but understand that it's about the size of a small tigress and the Leopon, which I have seen, is about the size of a lioness, and is REALLY messed up...crossed eyes, inner-ear balance issues that keep it running into things in it's cage, and skin allergies.

Rich idiot's pets that grew up, one and all...actually, most of the cats in such places are rich idiots' pets that grew up.


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## Yvonne G (May 8, 2013)

Thank you for posting those pictures. I hadn't seen them before. They almost look photo shopped.


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## Team Gomberg (May 8, 2013)

*Re: RE: Tortoise hybrids?*



Yvonne G said:


> Thank you for posting those pictures. I hadn't seen them before. They almost look photo shopped.



You mean those last 2 pictures aren't photo shopped??

Heather
sent while on my purple android TFOapp


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## Terry Allan Hall (May 8, 2013)

Yvonne G said:


> Thank you for posting those pictures. I hadn't seen them before. They almost look photo shopped.



The bottom one, of the Tigon, certainly does, but the site I found 'em all on says they're all for real. 

Curious if the Tigon at the sanctuary is as vividly marked at the one in the pic.


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## yagyujubei (May 8, 2013)

Don't you guys remember Ligertown in Idaho? Police shot about 15 to 20 ligers after they mauled their keeper and escaped in the 90's.


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## Terry Allan Hall (May 8, 2013)

yagyujubei said:


> Don't you guys remember Ligertown in Idaho? Police shot about 15 to 20 ligers after they mauled their keeper and escaped in the 90's.



Just looked that incident up...wow!


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