# What To Do About Pics Of Inappropriate Tortoise Practices?



## Tom

I am constantly confronted with this dilemma. Someone happily posts a picture of their baby sulcata eating a strawberry, or their desert tortoise eating an apple, or their dog or cat "playing" with their tortoise, or the tortoise sunning next to the human swimming pool, running loose in a public park… etc… You pick the bad or dangerous practice.

They post the pic wanting to share their happiness and commune with like minded folks, but all I see is a disaster in the making. Do I say something and make them hate me and never want to post again? Will they be grateful that I'm attempting to save their tortoise from harm?

Saying something is likely to upset them, but how upset will they be when their tortoise is injured, ill or dead and nobody said anything?

I could take it to PM, but not saying anything publicly is in some manner condoning the practice, and I certainly don't want other people reading to think these things are okay to do. 


All opinion and discussion is welcome here. What do you guys do when you see this sort of thing?


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## G-stars

I think it should be pointed it. Some people know the risks and still take them. 
While others do it out of ignorance. Once they are informed they can then take the risk if so desired. I like how straight forward @Tom is, some people may not. But the intention is always good. I would rather someone be straight forward with me or "harsh" if it means that my animals will benefit from it, some don't like constructive criticism. 

"Don't regret what you have done, regret what you should have done"


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## wellington

I usually say something. I don't care about the person as much as the animal. I think it's in the way you say it if they hate you or thank you. If I'm in a hurry or bad mood, and I say something, that's usually when it doesn't go well. I am trying to at those times say nothing until I can come back in a better mood or more time. Suggest and give a why, a demanding tone or short answer never seems to fly.
Now I know others won't say anything on an intro thread. However, I will, it may be the only chance you have to get the info to them.
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.


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## Careym13

Personally, I would say something. I don't know always know enough to point out diet related photos, but I have pointed out dog photos. I think saying it, in a direct yet polite as possible manner, is in the best interest of the tortoise. I'd rather have a human upset with me than have that same human have a dead/injured animal. Now, it would be unfortunate for that person to leave the forum or not want to post anymore, but for many of those people I would hope common sense would eventually prevail and they would see the error of their ways.


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## Alaskamike

I've posted pics of my Sulcata next to my dog 


Two different type eating together 



And my little Redfoot in the human pool 



And I know somewhere there is a photo of my Sulcata with " strawberry face ". 
And pictures of my badly pyramided Redfoot. 

It would not bother me if someone pointed out - 
Possible cross contamination
Beware of dogs & torts together
Chlorine is bad for torts. 
Fruit is bad for Sulcatas 
Pyramiding is caused by dehydration 
Etc. 

Personally , I feel pretty confident in my practices , and am always willing to learn and change my mind. 

What always takes me back a bit is when a new person comes here and asks for advice then argues about the advice. That is amazing. 

In the short time I've been on TFO , I have seen a softening in the initial way advice is given - and I applaud that. 

But I would be unhappy if it was not given. Or bad practices ignored. 
If some people get the a_ _ because their enclosures are not praised so be it. Teachable moments are sometimes short and opportunity lost. 

Being a " bull dog" when it comes to best care practice is what I love about this forum. ( not that I'm calling you bull dogs Tom & Yvonne .... Will maybe .... )


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## Alaskamike

.... Or @wellington 
Hahaha


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## AnimalLady

I think its best to say something. Sometimes it doesn't really come off sounding like advice though and that's the tricky part for me. I sleep better at night knowing I might have saved an animal though. So, I really just put the humans feelings aside and worry about the animal at hand. I do try my hardest to not come off sounding like a btch, that's not always accomplished though *shrug*

I'm new here, I've been given the absolute best advice, and I really trust what you guys tell me. Everything isn't unicorns and rainbows and I understand that, I wear my big girl panties all the time so my feelers are never hurt lol.

If you cant stand things of this nature, stay far the hell away from the tortoise facebook page. The things I see people do on there, my goodness.


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## wellington

Alaskamike said:


> .... Or @wellington
> Hahaha



I love bull dogs


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## Neal

I've had a similar discussion with another forum member over the past couple of days. An appropriate approach would always depend on the specific situation. In my case, I did not have a good understanding of the background of why someone presented publicly (in my case it was just words, not a picture). Instead of publicly discussing it, I took it to a PM and resolved the matter peacefully. Resolved well enough for me that is so going forward I will not feel so quick to the defensive. In the context of the scenario you described, unless you know that someone is intentionally engaging in something harmful as a matter of regular practice, instead of someones dog just happened to be in the same area when that particular picture was taken, then I think a more public discussion might be more appropriate. You know what I"m trying to say?

If it were me, and I was sure someone was intentionally engaging in (what I would consider to be) a harmful practice, then I would speak up to the person directly and publicly and explain why it's harmful. Not doing so would dis-serves the community, in my opinion. 

It's a fine line to walk though, so I totally understand how you feel. From what I've seen, these types of discussions escalate very quickly to personal attacks and people leave the forum or worse, become enemies. I think what causes that is both parties feel the need to convince each other that they're individual opinions are correct so the arguments keep going on and on and on. It's hard to let go when it gets to that level, I know, I've been there. Personally, I would prefer to see each party explain why they are engaging in the practice or why they would discourage it, then move on with their lives. Let the reader make their own determination as to what is right and what is wrong, rather than trying to convince them.


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## dmmj

I usually don't say something unless I am asked.


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## Yvonne G

I really feel badly when a new member feels so happy and proud of their picture that they want to share it with other tortoise lovers, but then gets shot down because the picture displays something that might eventually be harmful to the tortoise. It bothers me. By the same token, if we see a really cute picture of a small tortoise and a big brute of a dog, and we don't say anything besides, "Oh, how cute is that?", then the picture is there for posterity. Anyone signing onto the forum, guest or member, sees the picture and it looks like it is approved by the membership, or looks like that practice is an ok practice.

So, I feel we need to say something. BUT - there is a right way and a wrong way. And once the practice has been pointed out to the Original Poster (OP), and explained in a nice way, *NO OTHER MEMBER NEEDS TO POST AND SAY THE SAME THING!!!!!!* If you have a different opinion, by all means, post your opinion, but let's don't all of us jump on them.


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## Kapidolo Farms

As a mentor once said to me, when they really didn't have an answer they'd say " well that's a pickle isn't it."

It's hard to know the sensitivity of someone right in front of you (hard for me to know) let alone the anonymous nature of people we meet through this kind of venue. It would be most desirable to alert the person to what the 'wrong' message might be in their image, without making them feel backed into a corner.

So maybe there might be a simple thread somewhere called "best simple practices", that can be inserted via link into the image poster's thread. Not some long diatribe, but bullet points.

1) never mix species, a debatable topic thoroughly discussed here Thread link,
2) dog and tortoises don't mix, not ever. discussed here Thread link,
3) CFL bring many concerns with them, discussed here Thread Link
4) fun with tortoise food overwintering discussed here Thread link, (something positive)
5) blah blah blah.


You can't pin every post, but this might be a way to highlight the topic by a common thread title, but then link it to a reasonable good discussion on the topic.


So the OP post a picture of three species sharing a meal with a pet raccoon near a pool. 

My comment would be 

"Cool image, some might say it's a test to see good image focus of not good practices with tortoise keeping, take a look at this thread, of links to threads regarding what could be better. My concerns are 1) mixed species, 2) pet raccoon, and 3)proximity to the pool"

I am sure that thread of best practices which would only really be a series of links to threads discussing the topics would be argued until our fingers are bloody from typing, so that's where some monitor would have to do some heavy lifting and maybe even suggest "Thread abcxyz post numbers 12, 17, and 31, discuss the dangers of pools and tortoises ability to swim."

https://www.facebook.com/KapidoloFarms


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## wellington

Yvonne G said:


> I really feel badly when a new member feels so happy and proud of their picture that they want to share it with other tortoise lovers, but then gets shot down because the picture displays something that might eventually be harmful to the tortoise. It bothers me. By the same token, if we see a really cute picture of a small tortoise and a big brute of a dog, and we don't say anything besides, "Oh, how cute is that?", then the picture is there for posterity. Anyone signing onto the forum, guest or member, sees the picture and it looks like it is approved by the membership, or looks like that practice is an ok practice.
> 
> So, I feel we need to say something. BUT - there is a right way and a wrong way. And once the practice has been pointed out to the Original Poster (OP), and explained in a nice way, *NO OTHER MEMBER NEEDS TO POST AND SAY THE SAME THING!!!!!!* If you have a different opinion, by all means, post your opinion, but let's don't all of us jump on them.



I don't agree, that just one member posting about the bad things in the pic is enough. So what, one member disagrees. When a consenses of the post are the same, then it can be taken more seriously and given more value/merit. Of course, it always has to do with the tone of each post and how the agreement of the care is presented.


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## Nephelle

I think @Yvonne G hit the nail on the head. It's not being told once, it's being told 10 times before being given the chance to correct the issue. 

As for myself, I have been told wrong on several occasions. And, I have felt those moments of frustration when I know I am trying and still hitting bumps. I have simply learned over the years to work past the bruises and appreciate the value of good advice. Others might not be there yet, and get defensive, angry, or just leave. 

I would want to be told in a clear way that didn't just say WRONG but said WHY it was wrong. If, however, the first person responding didn't offer a why, I would be appreciative after that if someone else came along and explained further.


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## wellington

Will said:


> As a mentor once said to me, when they really didn't have an answer they'd say " well that's a pickle isn't it."
> 
> It's hard to know the sensitivity of someone right in front of you (hard for me to know) let alone the anonymous nature of people we meet through this kind of venue. It would be most desirable to alert the person to what the 'wrong' message might be in their image, without making them feel backed into a corner.
> 
> So maybe there might be a simple thread somewhere called "best simple practices", that can be inserted via link into the image poster's thread. Not some long diatribe, but bullet points.
> 
> 1) never mix species, a debatable topic thoroughly discussed here Thread link,
> 2) dog and tortoises don't mix, not ever. discussed here Thread link,
> 3) CFL bring many concerns with them, discussed here Thread Link
> 4) fun with tortoise food overwintering discussed here Thread link, (something positive)
> 5) blah blah blah.
> 
> 
> You can't pin every post, but this might be a way to highlight the topic by a common thread title, but then link it to a reasonable good discussion on the topic.
> 
> 
> So the OP post a picture of three species sharing a meal with a pet raccoon near a pool.
> 
> My comment would be
> 
> "Cool image, some might say it's a test to see good image focus of not good practices with tortoise keeping, take a look at this thread, of links to threads regarding what could be better. My concerns are 1) mixed species, 2) pet raccoon, and 3)proximity to the pool"
> 
> I am sure that thread of best practices which would only really be a series of links to threads discussing the topics would be argued until our fingers are bloody from typing, so that's where some monitor would have to do some heavy lifting and maybe even suggest "Thread abcxyz post numbers 12, 17, and 31, discuss the dangers of pools and tortoises ability to swim."
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/KapidoloFarms



But then hope they will take the time to actually read all the links your gave them. Heck, most newbies won't read the rules before posting.
Get the info in there head while you have their attention. Be kind and helpful about it. If they are offended, then that's their problems, our problem should be for trying to help the animal, not baby sitting egos.


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## wellington

Nephelle said:


> I think @Yvonne G hit the nail on the head. It's not being told once, it's being told 10 times before being given the chance to correct the issue.
> 
> As for myself, I have been told wrong on several occasions. And, I have felt those moments of frustration when I know I am trying and still hitting bumps. I have simply learned over the years to work past the bruises and appreciate the value of good advice. Others might not be there yet, and get defensive, angry, or just leave.
> 
> I would want to be told in a clear way that didn't just say WRONG but said WHY it was wrong. If, however, the first person responding didn't offer a why, I would be appreciative after that if someone else came along and explained further.



Again I disagree. Newbie number one tells you what is wrong. That's it, your good with that? Maybe it's me, but until I get to know who is who and who really knows what, I don't listen to advice from just anyone. A newbie might have great knowledge and experience, but until they have been here a while, shared their stuff, who knows what this person is really knows. No, it probably doesn't need to be said ten times, but the more that confirm the same answer, the better the person will realize that it's not just this one persons opinion and that one person that gave that opinion, may have been here for two weeks. When I was a newbie, that's not the person I wanted help from.


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## Nephelle

wellington said:


> Again I disagree. Newbie number one tells you what is wrong. That's it, your good with that? Maybe it's me, but until I get to know who is who and who really knows what, I don't listen to advice from just anyone. A newbie might have great knowledge and experience, but until they have been here a while, shared their stuff, who knows what this person is really knows. No, it probably doesn't need to be said ten times, but the more that confirm the same answer, the better the person will realize that it's not just this one persons opinion and that one person that gave that opinion, may have been here for two weeks. When I was a newbie, that's not the person I wanted help from.



Personally, I feel that if the first time was clear and offered corrections that you as the reader agree with, there is no need to keep repeating the same information. Liking the comment is a thumbs up and far less intimidating than repeat posts.

Newbs are often marked by date, number of posts and number of likes  I am obviously a newb, and I always identify myself as a new owner in my posts (or that my tortoise is very young). When I read posts from other members in response to my questions, I always look to see who is replying and then weigh their activity level on the forums against the advice. I realize not all might do the same.

That said, most of the advice and help I have been given has come from mods (automatic okay), or a handful of the same people in general pop with thousands of posts to their name.


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## dmmj

I guess I'm not as arrogant as some. If I'm doing something wrong I want to be told that's how it's always been with me.I don't have An ego in tortoise keeping.


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## MPRC

From the thread title I expected graphic mating photos. 

Also I like to try to be gentle when telling folks they are idiots, but that's because that is the method that I respond best to. I also have the good sense to not show you guys photos when I feed my tortoise off my dinner plate or let him run around my home office because I KNOW that it is not appropriate behavior, even though sometimes I indulge in it myself. No need to let impressionable newbies think it's okay.


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## turtlesteve

I like Will's suggestion best, but even this may be too direct. Advise given by a "position of authority" approach is often received poorly unless respect is earned prior to the advice being given. The posters are obviously tortoise lovers and will potentially keep many tortoises in the future. If they are driven off the forum, you have removed any opportunity to spread (or share) knowledge.


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## Rutibegga

LaDukePhoto said:


> From the thread title I expected graphic mating photos.



Ha, ditto there.

I think that pointing out potentially harmful situations to people is never a bad thing as long as you're diplomatic about it. I'll admit that Troggy gets some exploration time in my living room. I am taking a calculated risk. If someone saw a photo of him on my floor with a sleeping giant dog in the background and cautioned me about the potential dangers, I'd agree that there are safer situations for him, but I'm open to criticism as long as it's constructive. 

As a relative noob, I'd be hesitant to give the same sort of advice to others unless I really felt I could back up my statements, but again, if I could, I'd be certain to be pretty laid-back and non-threatening about it. My job is actually advising people on animal (specifically, cat) care, so I'm pretty good at doing so in a non-judge mental way.


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## Tom

Alaskamike said:


> Being a " bull dog" when it comes to best care practice is what I love about this forum. ( not that I'm calling you bull dogs Tom & Yvonne .... Will maybe .... )



The difference is that you _know_ those things are wrong, you know what you are doing there, you have lots of experience, and with your history on this forum and my history of dealing with you, I already know that you have a handle on things. You also don't usually post pics depicting these risky things you do, thereby encouraging others with less of a knowledge base than you to try them.

I don't hold a high opinion of Bulldogs being very tenacious. I fancy myself more of a malinois if a dog comparison is needed.


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## Tom

LaDukePhoto said:


> No need to let impressionable newbies think it's okay.



You touch on a good point here. A large part of my issue here is that showing pics of this sort of unsafe practice encourages others to do the same stuff. Its bad enough when people engage in this stuff in the privacy of their own home, but putting it on public display and having people post cute comments about it, is not a good thing.

I know people like Mike sometimes mix species and stuff, but encouraging others to do it by posting "cute" pics is another story. I don't like it that it happens, but I can't sit by and let these practices be publicly encouraged.


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## Tom

turtlesteve said:


> I like Will's suggestion best, but even this may be too direct. Advise given by a "position of authority" approach is often received poorly unless respect is earned prior to the advice being given. The posters are obviously tortoise lovers and will potentially keep many tortoises in the future. If they are driven off the forum, you have removed any opportunity to spread (or share) knowledge.



Also a good point, and this is part of the reason why this is such a dilemma for me personally. Like Barb, I care more about the animal's welfare than the human's feelings, but if I'm not careful I'll drive the person away. Finding that balance is a challenge for me.


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## Team Gomberg

This is what I've done...

Instead of right away advising them on what is wrong and what they should do instead, I ask them a question about it. 

"Cool, tortoise and pretty dog. Do they often spend time together our do they live separately?"

"Strawberries, yummy! How often does Shelley enjoy those treats?"

"Wow, what a lot of tortoises! Do the Russians always eat their meals with the leopards?"

You get the point... 

This gives them the benefit of the doubt and allows them to clear it up. If they were unaware, this introduces the opportunity to offer them advice without becoming so defensive. 

I feel it's a polite way to bring up an issue, in text, with a stranger on social media.

I think of 1 case where a knowledgeable keeper posted a photo of his newly rescued redfoot enjoying a mud soak. No one knew that of course but it was later brought up after his photo was attacked. The members were well meaning and wanted to help but the approach was so rough he left. I don't remember specifics but it was strong enough that I remember enough!

Anyway. My opinion is to ask a question first. This forum already has a bit of a reputation for harsh criticism. Maybe questions first could change that. ?


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## Jess84

Tom said:


> Also a good point, and this is part of the reason why this is such a dilemma for me personally. Like Barb, I care more about the animal's welfare than the human's feelings, but if I'm not careful I'll drive the person away. Finding that balance is a challenge for me.



And in this case, the poster/owner's feelings are what determines the animal's welfare.

I am a new tortoise owner, and I can say the work that goes into maintaining a healthy, stable and nurturing environment is far more tedious (and expensive) than I ever could have imagined. We are more than up for the task of taking the fullest care of our tortoise possible, and I imagine that most owners coming to these forums want the very best for their animals as well. There is not a lot of information out there in the world that is readily available to people who take on something they think initially is going to be a much more low key pet than a dog or cat. The majority of chain pet stores dole out bad or inaccurate advice. Basic write-ups on the internet seem to follow those general guidelines. The details and immediate responses available here are beyond helpful, and probably life saving for many a new owner and tortoise.

I also imagine that the long term, mass scale breeders/owners here didn't know everything from day one. Their wealth of knowledge comes from years and years of tortoise care. And if they had been turned off from learning and doing right by their animals simply because they felt unwelcome or driven away because their first set-up and the hundreds of dollars that went into it were wrong, then we wouldn't have the information we have from them now.

If good advice is given, we need to be confident in our fellow forums members. A hit of the like button, or a simple response of "What he/she" said should suffice. If we are more concerned with adding our two cents, simply repeating the changes that need to be made, it looks like we haven't bothered to read the advice already given. And if that's the case, then any advice we offer that is already on the table comes across as scolding for the sake of scolding. If people shut down, they won't want to be a part of this group. And if they aren't a part of this group, they will likely return to the pet-store advice it seems these forums are trying to save animals from.


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## Tom

Team Gomberg said:


> This is what I've done...
> 
> Instead of right away advising them on what is wrong and what they should do instead, I ask them a question about it.
> 
> "Cool, tortoise and pretty dog. Do they often spend time together our do they live separately?"
> 
> "Strawberries, yummy! How often does Shelley enjoy those treats?"
> 
> "Wow, what a lot of tortoises! Do the Russians always eat their meals with the leopards?"
> 
> You get the point...
> 
> This gives them the benefit of the doubt and allows them to clear it up. If they were unaware, this introduces the opportunity to offer them advice without becoming so defensive.
> 
> I feel it's a polite way to bring up an issue, in text, with a stranger on social media.
> 
> I think of 1 case where a knowledgeable keeper posted a photo of his newly rescued redfoot enjoying a mud soak. No one knew that of course but it was later brought up after his photo was attacked. The members were well meaning and wanted to help but the approach was so rough he left. I don't remember specifics but it was strong enough that I remember enough!
> 
> Anyway. My opinion is to ask a question first. This forum already has a bit of a reputation for harsh criticism. Maybe questions first could change that. ?



I suck at tact. You are so much better at this than I am. I need to follow your lead more.


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## Nephelle

Tom said:


> Also a good point, and this is part of the reason why this is such a dilemma for me personally. Like Barb, I care more about the animal's welfare than the human's feelings, but if I'm not careful I'll drive the person away. Finding that balance is a challenge for me.



I think the real question in this is:

What is the main purpose of TFO?

If the answer to that question is a forum for a closed group of enthusiasts who are available for Q&A to the general public on a limited basis, then there is no issue in how you respond to these matters. 

If the answer instead is to provide a teaching platform, then the question changes into how would you like that information to be passed. Yes, there are those who breeze through the forums to ask a question and never return, and for them the "teaching moment" would be brief. However, there are those who wish to learn, and with a friendly, open approach to their initial introduction that might encourage further participation, the potential for teaching moments would be endless.

My first introduction to these forums was rather harsh. I actually left after my first few posts, and on the advice of a snake-owning friend, went to another reptile forum that she promised was "friendlier". A short time there, and I realized that while friendly, it didn't provide the information I needed on my specific pet. It was very important to me that I provide the best care for my animal, so I sucked it up and came back and tried again. I am very glad I did. I feel, though, that most wouldn't. 

Yes, you might save a tortoise from a possible dog attack at some point in the future. In the meantime, that tortoise might be living in a 10 gallon aquarium being fed only lettuce, and because it's owner was driven off by harsh comments from the start, nothing about it's life will ever change. So again, it really comes down to my original question, and your personal goals in how you interact here.


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## Anyfoot

Interesting. We are all human, mistakes happen. Looking from the outside inwards the problem is that some members character can play an effect on the newbie op's reaction. Some newbies will be thick skinned and some will not. Some people are not outgoing and confidant. For this reason it should be assumed all new members take harsh criticism to heart, and tact is needed. I agree with Yvonne that not everyone should jump on a newbie. But this can not be policed. @Will has the answer. 
A tactful comment on the subject in the op's thread is needed then pointed to a thread of "common bad practices"


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## Tortoisefan

Well most people when they post a pic of their lovely new child or a family photo don't like to be told geez you shouldn't hold your child like that or seriously you let you child
Play on shag carpet... Lol. Not to mention there is virtually 80 percent incorrect knowledge out there about caring for these precious shelled animals. So people get shocked, hurt, feel betrayed by wherever they got the info on care. I think @Tom you are so incredibly knowledgable and helpful. Its all about tact and I have not always been the most tactful person myself. But I am learning. I understand how yah would think its common sense care on so many issues, but it just shows how little education there is on how to care for these awesome animals. Also not sure you have noticed but common sense is becoming so rare it should be classified as a superpower! I might try to build a bridge as some others have suggested with comments about the pic and you have some suggestions if they are interested about making their torts life better. I also like the idea the person posted about maybe having bullet points in a welcome post. Maybe when ppl sign up for the forum they get a little info in the sign up e mail about giving their tortoise the best life possible. Just my take on it. I don't post much but I am on here reading wayyyy too much!


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## Alaskamike

Jess84 said:


> And in this case, the poster/owner's feelings are what determines the animal's welfare.
> 
> I am a new tortoise owner, and I can say the work that goes into maintaining a healthy, stable and nurturing environment is far more tedious (and expensive) than I ever could have imagined. We are more than up for the task of taking the fullest care of our tortoise possible, and I imagine that most owners coming to these forums want the very best for their animals as well. There is not a lot of information out there in the world that is readily available to people who take on something they think initially is going to be a much more low key pet than a dog or cat. The majority of chain pet stores dole out bad or inaccurate advice. Basic write-ups on the internet seem to follow those general guidelines. The details and immediate responses available here are beyond helpful, and probably life saving for many a new owner and tortoise.
> 
> I also imagine that the long term, mass scale breeders/owners here didn't know everything from day one. Their wealth of knowledge comes from years and years of tortoise care. And if they had been turned off from learning and doing right by their animals simply because they felt unwelcome or driven away because their first set-up and the hundreds of dollars that went into it were wrong, then we wouldn't have the information we have from them now.
> 
> If good advice is given, we need to be confident in our fellow forums members. A hit of the like button, or a simple response of "What he/she" said should suffice. If we are more concerned with adding our two cents, simply repeating the changes that need to be made, it looks like we haven't bothered to read the advice already given. And if that's the case, then any advice we offer that is already on the table comes across as scolding for the sake of scolding. If people shut down, they won't want to be a part of this group. And if they aren't a part of this group, they will likely return to the pet-store advice it seems these forums are trying to save animals from.


I like this last paragraph especially. And actually I see this done much moe know than even just a year ago. This is not the first time we've had this discussion. And some bandwagon jumpers have used more thought and tact. I also see links given early on to help educate - though we all know many don't read them. @Tom, you say you suck at tact but that's not what I see. You are among the several extremely experienced hobbiests who takes the time for thorough explanation and education despite having said similar things in 100'ds of posts as well as care sheets - I call that grace & patience. 

I appreciate the suggestion to not post pics of bad practices - even though it's " cute" and does not reflect a pattern of care. Tom is right , some may draw the wrong conclusions from that. I will not do that anymore

It takes additional words some times to soften the blow sometimes. This is done well by most. 
I believe also keeping the active educated members involved is important to the health of the forum. Think of the dozen or so of the most knowledgable and active member - what would this forum be like if they left ? 

When a highly experienced member leaves over a conflict , we all lose.


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## ShannonT

wellington said:


> I love bull dogs


I have a French bulldog  she love to help with the clan and make sure everyone is being looked after.


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## jaizei

Alaskamike said:


> I've posted pics of my Sulcata next to my dog
> View attachment 151258
> 
> Two different type eating together
> View attachment 151259
> 
> 
> And my little Redfoot in the human pool
> View attachment 151260
> 
> 
> And I know somewhere there is a photo of my Sulcata with " strawberry face ".
> And pictures of my badly pyramided Redfoot.
> 
> It would not bother me if someone pointed out -
> Possible cross contamination
> Beware of dogs & torts together
> Chlorine is bad for torts.
> Fruit is bad for Sulcatas
> Pyramiding is caused by dehydration
> Etc.
> 
> Personally , I feel pretty confident in my practices , and am always willing to learn and change my mind.
> 
> What always takes me back a bit is when a new person comes here and asks for advice then argues about the advice. That is amazing.
> 
> In the short time I've been on TFO , I have seen a softening in the initial way advice is given - and I applaud that.
> 
> But I would be unhappy if it was not given. Or bad practices ignored.
> If some people get the a_ _ because their enclosures are not praised so be it. Teachable moments are sometimes short and opportunity lost.
> 
> Being a " bull dog" when it comes to best care practice is what I love about this forum. ( not that I'm calling you bull dogs Tom & Yvonne .... Will maybe .... )



Why do you do these things that you seemingly acknowledge are 'wrong'? Perhaps you've realized that they are not? The risk isn't near as great as some would have you believe? What concerns me the most; that members are unwilling to share because their practices aren't approved by the tortoise police. 





Alaskamike said:


> When a highly experienced member leaves over a conflict , we all lose.



I'd agree but then there are many that are happy when members with opposing opinions leave.


----------



## terryo

Everyone has there own way of doing things that work for them. Some people do things that a lot of people think are wrong, but they have much success. That's one of the reasons I always say....Just what I do, not written in stone. The only thing that bothers me is when someone gives advice about a turtle...tortoise, and they only have had a few years experience or just have one animal. That usually means that the only experience they have is research on the internet, which to me is no experience at all. When a new person comes on here with a first time tortoise/turtle and shows a picture of her set up and it's all wrong, I think that the person would appreciate any advice, and would also like some different opinions on what worked best for them. When I got my first Cherry head about 7 or 8 years ago, everyone told me the same thing...a plastic tub for an enclosure. I tried everything and it didn't work for me so I decided that since the Cherry needed the same care as a box turtle, I would try a tank. It worked great. I appreciated all the advice because it was done in a helpful way. What I'm trying to say is that if only one person gives advice, then the new owner only gets one opinion, and I really believe that there is not only one way to raise any species of tortoise. The fundamentals, of course are important, but I personally would like to hear what everyone has to say.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> Interesting. We are all human, mistakes happen. Looking from the outside inwards the problem is that some members character can play an effect on the newbie op's reaction. Some newbies will be thick skinned and some will not. Some people are not outgoing and confidant. For this reason it should be assumed all new members take harsh criticism to heart, and tact is needed. I agree with Yvonne that not everyone should jump on a newbie. But this can not be policed. @Will has the answer.
> A tactful comment on the subject in the op's thread is needed then pointed to a thread of "common bad practices"


Thanks, I see it as being lead to water, but not forced to drink. Maybe 'common good practices' too?


----------



## Prairie Mom

Nephelle said:


> When I read posts from other members in response to my questions, I always look to see who is replying and then weigh their activity level on the forums against the advice. I realize not all might do the same.
> 
> That said, most of the advice and help I have been given has come from mods (automatic okay), or a handful of the same people in general pop with thousands of posts to their name.


A thought comes to my mind... I'm don't feel number of posts or "likes" should really be considered when weighing advice given by a person. I have a number of posts and "likes", but some of my posts are simply "Hi...how are you?" and someone clicks the "like" button to show they've read my message. These numbers do not mean I have experience keeping tortoises.

I think it's really good that you identify yourself as a new caregiver. I do the same if I'm not simply attaching a link to an experienced caregiver's info and wish more people did this.

In the beginning, I definitely listened to advice if I saw it being repeated and I think you make a good point in that if a lot of people click the "like" button on a piece of advice, that may give it more weight. I definitely pay more attention to the advisor if they are a mod (which is why I DO think the next Mod should have tort experience), have pinned posts, or I notice them often giving advice that seems reasonable to me.


----------



## Prairie Mom

Team Gomberg said:


> This is what I've done...
> 
> Instead of right away advising them on what is wrong and what they should do instead, I ask them a question about it.
> 
> "Cool, tortoise and pretty dog. Do they often spend time together our do they live separately?"
> 
> "Strawberries, yummy! How often does Shelley enjoy those treats?"
> 
> "Wow, what a lot of tortoises! Do the Russians always eat their meals with the leopards?"
> 
> You get the point...
> 
> This gives them the benefit of the doubt and allows them to clear it up. If they were unaware, this introduces the opportunity to offer them advice without becoming so defensive.
> 
> I feel it's a polite way to bring up an issue, in text, with a stranger on social media.
> 
> I think of 1 case where a knowledgeable keeper posted a photo of his newly rescued redfoot enjoying a mud soak. No one knew that of course but it was later brought up after his photo was attacked. The members were well meaning and wanted to help but the approach was so rough he left. I don't remember specifics but it was strong enough that I remember enough!
> 
> Anyway. My opinion is to ask a question first. This forum already has a bit of a reputation for harsh criticism. Maybe questions first could change that. ?


This is excellent


----------



## Prairie Mom

Tortoisefan said:


> Maybe when ppl sign up for the forum they get a little info in the sign up e mail about giving their tortoise the best life possible.


This is a REALLY GOOD idea! When you sign up for the forum, you get an automatic "hello" message from Josh. But the reality is you'll most likely never hear or see him again and the only purpose the email fills is to let you know that the link has been made to your email account. I think it's a great idea to have the automatic message include bulleted links to forum rules, brief explanation of categories (enclosures, diet, introductions, etc), and THERE you include a list of practices that have commonly lead to tortoise injuries and fatalities. It might be good to have a fun/cheerful link too; like a link to photos for this years calendar contest or something. 

Wellington is right that many people will ignore this info, but it's such a simple & non threatening thing. If it reaches a handful of people then it has served a good purpose.


----------



## Bogie=babyDINO

Yvonne G said:


> I really feel badly when a new member feels so happy and proud of their picture that they want to share it with other tortoise lovers, but then gets shot down because the picture displays something that might eventually be harmful to the tortoise. It bothers me. By the same token, if we see a really cute picture of a small tortoise and a big brute of a dog, and we don't say anything besides, "Oh, how cute is that?", then the picture is there for posterity. Anyone signing onto the forum, guest or member, sees the picture and it looks like it is approved by the membership, or looks like that practice is an ok practice.
> 
> So, I feel we need to say something. BUT - there is a right way and a wrong way. And once the practice has been pointed out to the Original Poster (OP), and explained in a nice way, *NO OTHER MEMBER NEEDS TO POST AND SAY THE SAME THING!!!!!!* If you have a different opinion, by all means, post your opinion, but let's don't all of us jump on them.


I totally agree! Whenever I come across bad pictures I see that the well-known members have already commented on them but I also see everyone jumps onboard the bashing wagon and takes the persons happiness away. They have already be told once or twice about the danger so the rest of us should congratulate them and welcome them. I don't want people being scared away. I was new to torts too (I still am) but this forum is teaching me so much! I remember reading some bashing threads and thinking yikes I don't think I will post something. Now that I have got the hang of everything I'm more comfortable posting. Let's make this site friendly and informative! I think Well known members kinda have a right to be bull dogs but that's where the rest of us come in and say they mean well and if you want the best for your tort you should soak up the advice. That's what I did and my tort is so happy and healthy!! Thanks @Tom


----------



## wellington

jaizei said:


> Why do you do these things that you seemingly acknowledge are 'wrong'? Perhaps you've realized that they are not? The risk isn't near as great as some would have you believe? What concerns me the most; that members are unwilling to share because their practices aren't approved by the tortoise police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd agree but then there are many that are happy when members with opposing opinions leave.



Really. Wow. I guess let everyone do what ever they want. Nothing seems to be bad for tortoises.
Sure hope too many newbs don't read this thread.


----------



## bouaboua

How you like this??





The title of the thread is "Happy feast"......From a tortoise forum in China. Tom will pull all his hair out if he ever visit that forum. Many new comer post this kind of thread/photo on that forum.

I always say something, but with a sandwich that I have my criticism between something nice.


----------



## terryo

That are a few forums that I go on and as I read some posts, I sit there with my mouth open. The usual comments...Oh how cute...very nice...etc., but no help given to someone who is doing things most of us would cringe at. I never say anything, as they are not nice if you do. I found out the hard way.


----------



## Bogie=babyDINO

wellington said:


> Really. Wow. I guess let everyone do what ever they want. Nothing seems to be bad for tortoises.
> Sure hope too many newbs don't read this thread.


Mmm well to be honest I think the word "wrong" gets people all in a tiff. Maybe that why they wrote this. But when explained it's not a great idea because of accidents, mistakes, and what is not healthy for the tort's body then maybe people will take less offense. To call them "the tortoise police" is kinda rude. When I see a well known member with years of experience get mad, agitated, forceful, I think well they are acting this way because they have seen tortoises died! They are trying to save torts! That way they are acting this way because they are trying to help!


----------



## Prairie Mom

bouaboua said:


> How you like this??
> 
> View attachment 151354
> View attachment 151355
> 
> 
> The title of the thread is "Happy feast"......From a tortoise forum in China. Tom will pull all his hair out if he ever visit that forum. Many new comer post this kind of thread/photo on that forum.
> 
> I always say something, but with a sandwich that I have my criticism between something nice.


WOOOOOOW!!! You couldn't have picked a better example for this thread!!! Nice one!WOOOOOWWWWW!!!


----------



## Tom

jaizei said:


> Why do you do these things that you seemingly acknowledge are 'wrong'? Perhaps you've realized that they are not? The risk isn't near as great as some would have you believe? What concerns me the most; that members are unwilling to share because their practices aren't approved by the tortoise police.



Let me ask you something. Have you ever had your entire collection of tortoises die off because of a disease outbreak? This ever happen to anyone you are close to?

What experience are you drawing from to decide what level of risk any of these thing pose?

Do you have tortoises? How many? What species? I can't recall you ever mentioning your own tortoise collection or what practices you do or don't engage in. In fact, the ratio of your criticizing negative posts to helpful positive posts is pretty abhorrent. Are you here to help and enjoy tortoise talk, or is your purpose here to criticize, be negative and attempt to discredit others?

These questions are not rhetorical.


----------



## Prairie Mom

I'm going to throw in one of my own threads to add into this really interesting discussion. I think this follows into the category of concern that is being discussed here...
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/a-stroller-ride-to-the-park.120701/ it's still open if you want to comment on it.

I think I understand a bit of what Jaizei is saying, because I do want this forum to be a place where members feel like they can freely share. I was saddened when Mike suggested he may censor his pics a bit more often.

My thread definitely has some hazards (that I was already aware of because of good comments on other threads!) and I feel like my own thread was handled really nicely. @wellington put a disclaimer for everyone to read about the dangers of treated grass, which I feel was very necessary and appropriate, but she was also nice about it. (I love Team Gomberg's examples) I responded and mentioned what I was doing to try to reduce the hazard (bringing my own weeds & cleaning my tortoise at home).

Teachers have asked me to bring the tortoise back to the picnic again this year. I intend to do it again and will probably post more photos. We're also raising our tortoise a bit differently than I often see on the forum. She travels with us often and we do take her to family outtings in natural places with us. No, she's not a dog, but I do feel like she is gaining from her experiences with us and we certainly love having her with us.

My feelings about raising my tortoise are definitely different than many other posters I see. I enjoy sharing my experiences on the forum and I know that I could be up for some scrutiny as well.

-Should I shy away from sharing my experiences? Is it considered more appropriate if I add my own disclaimer of what safety concerns I've learned on the forum?

-When anyone responds to my debatable photos, I would appreciate it done in the manner that Team Gomberg, boua boua, and Bogie Babydino suggest, and the example that Wellington has always given me. Slow down and be tactful, and maybe throw out something nice along the way, particularly if no other posters have done it.

I think a few bulldogs are helpful and necessary as long as there are friendly smiles too.


----------



## Prairie Mom

Now, this very helpful and interesting thread has given me courage to post some info on a photo I've observed recently. I'm off to try to do some good!


----------



## Tom

bouaboua said:


> How you like this??
> The title of the thread is "Happy feast"......From a tortoise forum in China. Tom will pull all his hair out if he ever visit that forum. Many new comer post this kind of thread/photo on that forum.
> 
> I always say something, but with a sandwich that I have my criticism between something nice.



I get a lot of PMs asking question and needing help. I can't even count all the members from Asian countries that contact me wondering why their tortoise is sick, or dead, or not eating anymore. Frequently, we will go over all the basics and everything about the enclosure, heating and lighting seems okay, then I find out that the sick leopard lives in an enclosure with a RF, a radiated and two sulcatas… or something similar. I've seen this soooooo any times and its one of the many things that "color" my opinions on these matters. Of course there is no practical way for me to 100% confirm that disease transmission from foreign species is the COD in these cases, but when all else is good and done correctly, even Jaizei would have to admit that it is a likely cause of the issue at hand.


----------



## Prairie Mom

Prairie Mom said:


> Now, this very helpful and interesting thread has given me courage to post some info on a photo I've observed recently. I'm off to try to do some good!


Alright...I made two posts. I think I was nice and helpful. Feelin' Good!


----------



## jaizei

Tom said:


> Let me ask you something. Have you ever had your entire collection of tortoises die off because of a disease outbreak? This ever happen to anyone you are close to?
> 
> What experience are you drawing from to decide what level of risk any of these thing pose?
> 
> Do you have tortoises? How many? What species? I can't recall you ever mentioning your own tortoise collection or what practices you do or don't engage in. In fact, the ratio of your criticizing negative posts to helpful positive posts is pretty abhorrent. Are you here to help and enjoy tortoise talk, or is your purpose here to criticize, be negative and attempt to discredit others?
> 
> These questions are not rhetorical.




We see what we want to see. 


I'm can't play with you anymore because you always run crying to 'mom'.


----------



## Careym13

Prairie Mom said:


> I'm going to throw in one of my own threads to add into this really interesting discussion. I think this follows into the category of concern that is being discussed here...
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/a-stroller-ride-to-the-park.120701/ it's still open if you want to comment on it.
> 
> I think I understand a bit of what Jaizei is saying, because I do want this forum to be a place where members feel like they can freely share. I was saddened when Mike suggested he may censor his pics a bit more often.
> 
> My thread definitely has some hazards (that I was already aware of because of good comments on other threads!) and I feel like my own thread was handled really nicely. @wellington put a disclaimer for everyone to read about the dangers of treated grass, which I feel was very necessary and appropriate, but she was also nice about it. (I love Team Gomberg's examples) I responded and mentioned what I was doing to try to reduce the hazard (bringing my own weeds & cleaning my tortoise at home).
> 
> Teachers have asked me to bring the tortoise back to the picnic again this year. I intend to do it again and will probably post more photos. We're also raising our tortoise a bit differently than I often see on the forum. She travels with us often and we do take her to family outtings in natural places with us. No, she's not a dog, but I do feel like she is gaining from her experiences with us and we certainly love having her with us.
> 
> My feelings about raising my tortoise are definitely different than many other posters I see. I enjoy sharing my experiences on the forum and I know that I could be up for some scrutiny as well.
> 
> -Should I shy away from sharing my experiences? Is it considered more appropriate if I add my own disclaimer of what safety concerns I've learned on the forum?
> 
> -When anyone responds to my debatable photos, I would appreciate it done in the manner that Team Gomberg, boua boua, and Bogie Babydino suggest, and the example that Wellington has always given me. Slow down and be tactful, and maybe throw out something nice along the way, particularly if no other posters have done it.
> 
> I think a few bulldogs are helpful and necessary as long as there are friendly smiles too.


I don't think you should have to shy away from sharing your experiences (nor would I want you to ). I think some photos, even if they do deviate from what is considered an acceptable practice, can still be educational and enlightening. I've seen several people post "controversial" photos, but they accompany it with some sort of an explanation. I don't know if its fair to say that every person who posts a photo of their tortoise with their dog should have to justify it or offer an explanation, but at least when people do choose to post such photos if they follow it up by saying "I know this isn't usually a good idea, but.....or, this was just staged for a photo, blah blah", at least everyone else knows that they are already aware of the dangers presented in the photo. At the end of the day, no one here can stop another person from taking risks with their tortoise...all we can do is try. But what is a risk to some may not be to others. The debate goes on


----------



## Tom

jaizei said:


> We see what we want to see.



Are you implying that I should just imagine what tortoises you have or what you do? That doesn't seem very useful. Is it a surprise to you that I don't know what species you keep or what your tortoises look like? Have you posted lots of pics and details and I have somehow missed them all over the years? Since you are the undisputed KING of finding old threads and info, may I respectfully request a link to any old threads you may have done that show pics of your tortoises and or, how you care for them and house them?


----------



## Tom

jaizei said:


> I'm can't play with you anymore because you always run crying to 'mom'.



I have no idea what you mean by this. Who is mom? When have I tattled or asked for help in dealing with you? I've certainly complained about your negative attitude, snide remarks and lack of helpfulness, but that has been on the open forum in full public view and it is usually deleted pretty quick.

You have no shortage of negative things to say, but have you anything positive to add to this discussion? Do you think feeding lots of fruit to sulcatas is a good idea? How about roaming the floor in someone's house? Is it totally safe to mix species however we see fit? Really what is your point of contention here? Above you asked Mike if he thought "The risk isn't near as great as some would have you believe?" What do _YOU_ think the risk is?


----------



## N2TORTS

Tom....what's your *opinion* on keeping different dog species together?

and if so why?


----------



## Tom

N2TORTS said:


> Tom....what's your *opinion* on keeping different dog species together?
> 
> and if so why?



It is my opinion that species should not be mixed. There is a high probability of disease transmission from asymptomatic carriers of either species, and there are often behavior incompatibilities too.

I have this opinion based on first hand personal experience with handling diseases and behavioral issues in tortoises to include my own past mistakes, decades of working closely with many veterinary professionals, decades of observing what happens with the collections of tortoise keeping friends and acquaintances, and the direct advice of multiple veterinarians who specialize in reptiles that I am fortunate to call my friends. I have also been a career professional working with exotic animals of many species since 1986.

How about you JD? What is your *opinion*?


----------



## Yvonne G

Jeff; Dogs are all the same species, unlike tortoises. All dogs are the canine species. So go ahead and keep your collie with your german shepherd. Both are canine.

Tortoises are different species and sub species, so you're talking apples and oranges.


----------



## Tom

Yvonne G said:


> Jeff; Dogs are all the same species, unlike tortoises. All dogs are the canine species. So go ahead and keep your collie with your german shepherd. Both are canine.
> 
> Tortoises are different species and sub species, so you're talking apples and oranges.



Hey! Maybe he was referring to dingoes, African wild dogs, and our domesticated canines? 

I'm totally against mixing those species!


----------



## Yvonne G

I don't care what anyone says here in this thread. I'm going to continue to advise *NEW* tortoise-keepers against mixing species, allowing the tortoise free roaming throughout the house, letting the dog be with the tortoise, etc. NEW tortoise keepers don't have the experience to have thought these practices through.

More experienced keepers, like, for instance, Baoh and -E.J. have years of tortoise-keeping under their belts. They don't just arbitrarily buy a new tortoise and dump it in with the old tortoises. It might even be unconscious thought, but they weigh the experience then decide to do it or not. A more experienced keeper probably knows his animals have been de-wormed, or that they've lived on his property for a length of time and aren't harboring any disease, etc. 

But a new keeper has none of this knowledge and it's our job to help them gain it.


----------



## Elohi

Team Gomberg said:


> This is what I've done...
> 
> Instead of right away advising them on what is wrong and what they should do instead, I ask them a question about it.
> 
> "Cool, tortoise and pretty dog. Do they often spend time together our do they live separately?"
> 
> "Strawberries, yummy! How often does Shelley enjoy those treats?"
> 
> "Wow, what a lot of tortoises! Do the Russians always eat their meals with the leopards?"
> 
> You get the point...
> 
> This gives them the benefit of the doubt and allows them to clear it up. If they were unaware, this introduces the opportunity to offer them advice without becoming so defensive.
> 
> I feel it's a polite way to bring up an issue, in text, with a stranger on social media.
> 
> I think of 1 case where a knowledgeable keeper posted a photo of his newly rescued redfoot enjoying a mud soak. No one knew that of course but it was later brought up after his photo was attacked. The members were well meaning and wanted to help but the approach was so rough he left. I don't remember specifics but it was strong enough that I remember enough!
> 
> Anyway. My opinion is to ask a question first. This forum already has a bit of a reputation for harsh criticism. Maybe questions first could change that. ?



Precisely why I think you would make an excellent mod.


----------



## SteveW

Interesting thread. As a sideline participant, it often appears to me that the TFO regulars/pretend chatters/socializers (I'm not knocking it, just not my scene) don't always realize that there is more than just TFO vs the Petco refugees in the hobby, and not everyone with knowledge/experience agrees with the TFO standard of care. 
Here's an example; I've had a leopard tortoise since May (not my first tortoise). She's grown from 53gr to 170gr. I don't feed her Mazuri, don't use a closed chamber, don't use oil on her shell. I'm pleased with her growth.



Oh yeah, she's in an aquarium too. 
I think I might have some things to share of interest on, say, microclimates. I've not shared previously because I don't need 20 people telling me to read Toms threads. I've read them and appreciate them, but that doesn't end the discussion, at least not for me. So anyway, to provide at least one additional answer to the original question, if you have first hand knowledge, solid reasoning, or a source you can point to, then drop some knowledge and don't worry so much about diplomacy. If you don't have those things, then all the diplomacy in the world doesn't change the fact that you are just the first to arrive from the bandwagon. 
And now I await your diplomatic replies


----------



## Alaskamike

jaizei said:


> Why do you do these things that you seemingly acknowledge are 'wrong'? Perhaps you've realized that they are not? The risk isn't near as great as some would have you believe? What concerns me the most; that members are unwilling to share because their practices aren't approved by the tortoise police.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd agree but then there are many that are happy when members with opposing opinions leave.


Let's see , the whys....
My tortoises have their own enclosures. The Aldabra & Sulcata have both recently been tested negative for parasites & infreqently take a lunch together. 
I give my sulcata a strawberry 1x / month. 
I have no concerns about the chorine in my pool, & rinse him well after
My dogs do not have access to any of my tortoises , except the 40 lb Sulcata. My dogs accept him in the yard like they do the cat and leave him alone - I'm willing to take the risk. 
.... It is not ignoring sound advise , rather mitigating it with what know of my own care & supervision. 
The problem Tom pointed out in the original post is valid still. Warnings are a good idea. Informed choices are often the best choices. But it's still a choice. 
Most of us have no where near the experience of the most knowledgable here. And completely new keepers have no experience at all to inform choices. 
As far as conflicts, they are inevitable and good for thought. I wish more people would view disagreement as healthy and supply justification for contrary thoughts. Some of the best education I've received has been engaging in this process. 

Total agreement is highly overrated.


----------



## bouaboua

Yvonne G said:


> I don't care what anyone says here in this thread. I'm going to continue to advise *NEW* tortoise-keepers against mixing species, allowing the tortoise free roaming throughout the house, letting the dog be with the tortoise, etc. NEW tortoise keepers don't have the experience to have thought these practices through.
> 
> More experienced keepers, like, for instance, Baoh and -E.J. have years of tortoise-keeping under their belts. They don't just arbitrarily buy a new tortoise and dump it in with the old tortoises. It might even be unconscious thought, but they weigh the experience then decide to do it or not. A more experienced keeper probably knows his animals have been de-wormed, or that they've lived on his property for a length of time and aren't harboring any disease, etc.
> 
> But a new keeper has none of this knowledge and it's our job to help them gain it.



I think I will do the same. I will continue to offer my sandwich.


----------



## N2TORTS

Yvonne G said:


> Jeff; Dogs are all the same species, unlike tortoises. All dogs are the canine species. So go ahead and keep your collie with your german shepherd. Both are canine.
> 
> Tortoises are different species and sub species, so you're talking apples and oranges.



Yes, I KNOW they're all the same species, and I know the definition "*species*." My question is WHY aren't they all different species? The ancestors of all the purebreds were all isolated from each other and forced to evolve by humans….Species is just a conceptual term, that's really rather arbitrary. We use it because it's useful and convenient to categorize organisms. There's no perfect definition of what a species is; the "interbreeding" definition suggested by Mayr is now used less and less since so many different species can interbreed, despite remaining in isolation from each other. 
There is complete legitimacy in arguments that certain dog species should be reclassified as separate species (for starters, it's obvious that a Great Dane can't really reproduce easily with a Chihuahua).
Other factors or shall I say and more related to the topic …certain dogs are GREATLY susceptible to certain diseases or inherited health problems, more so than their “same species counterpartners”....WHY?

Just some examples are ….

Atrial septal defect* is a hole in the division between the heart atria (upper chambers of the heart). It is an uncommon abnormality in dogs. Most are not clinically significant, but large defects can cause right heart failure and exercise intolerance. Standard Poodles are the most common breed diagnosed with ASD in the USA.

Pulmonic stenosis* is a congenital heart disease in dogs characterized by right ventricular outflow tract obstruction. Most commonly the narrowing occurs at the pulmonary valve but it can also occur below the valve (subvalvular) or above the valve (supravalvular). The most commonly affected breeds include terriers, Bulldogs, Miniature Schnauzers, Chihuahuas, Samoyeds, Beagles, Keeshonds, Mastiffs, and Bullmastiffs. Signs may include exercise intolerance, but often there is only a heart murmur

Tetra-logy of Fallot* is a congenital heart defect in dogs that includes four separate defects: pulmonic stenosis, a ventricular septal defect, right ventricular hypertrophy, and an overriding aorta. Keeshonds and Bulldogs are predisposed. Signs include cyanosis and exercise intolerance. Polycythemia is often present and, if severe, needs to be controlled with phlebotomy or drugs to suppress red blood cell production.[49]

Patent ductus arteriosus* is one of the most common congenital heart defect in dogs around the world. It is inherited in toy and miniature Poodles, and seen commonly in German Shepherds, Pomeranians, Bichon Frises, and Malteses. Signs include a continuous heart murmur, bounding (strong) femoral pulse, tachypnea (increased breathing rate), dyspnea (labored breathing), and exercise intolerance

Subvalvular Aortic stenosis* (Subaortic stenosis; SAS) is a congenital disease in dogs characterized by left ventricular outflow tract obstruction by a discrete ring or tunnel of fibrous tissue immediately below the aortic valve. It is inherited in Newfoundlands, and also found in Golden Retrievers, Rottweilers, Boxers, Bulldogs, German Shepherd Dogs, and Samoyeds. Signs include a left basilar systolic heart murmur, weak femoral pulse, and fainting and exercise intolerance. Dogs with severe SAS are predisposed to dying suddenly

Trapped Neutrophil Syndrome* is an autosomal recessive disease which results in mature neutrophils being unable to migrate from the bone marrow into the blood. Affected pups suffer from chronic infections and failure to thrive. Other symptoms can include stunted growth and a ferret like facial appearance.[53] The disease is common in Border collies.

_Abbott, Jonathan A. (2000). Small Animal Cardiology Secrets (1st ed.). Hanley & Belfus, Inc. ISBN1-56053-352-8._


I’m not advocating keeping different species together, more so because of environmental and diet requirements- rather than transmitting or spreading disease. This can hold very true with mixing different species or even the same species “wild caught” animals….but wondering if CB F3’s down the line and years later of two different species would hold true to so much of the panic of “disease spreading’.


----------



## Careym13

SteveW said:


> Interesting thread. As a sideline participant, it often appears to me that the TFO regulars/pretend chatters/socializers (I'm not knocking it, just not my scene) don't always realize that there is more than just TFO vs the Petco refugees in the hobby, and not everyone with knowledge/experience agrees with the TFO standard of care.
> Here's an example; I've had a leopard tortoise since May (not my first tortoise). She's grown from 53gr to 170gr. I don't feed her Mazuri, don't use a closed chamber, don't use oil on her shell. I'm pleased with her growth.
> View attachment 151404
> 
> 
> Oh yeah, she's in an aquarium too.
> I think I might have some things to share of interest on, say, microclimates. I've not shared previously because I don't need 20 people telling me to read Toms threads. I've read them and appreciate them, but that doesn't end the discussion, at least not for me. So anyway, to provide at least one additional answer to the original question, if you have first hand knowledge, solid reasoning, or a source you can point to, then drop some knowledge and don't worry so much about diplomacy. If you don't have those things, then all the diplomacy in the world doesn't change the fact that you are just the first to arrive from the bandwagon.
> And now I await your diplomatic replies


I think you make some interesting points. It's good to see some "sideliners" jumping in on this thread. My question though, what harm is done in the event 20 people actually did suggest that you read Tom's threads? Wouldn't that suggest that 20 people actually care about your tortoise's well-being and are willing to help you out? 

I think different standards of care are a good thing, we can all learn from different methods of tortoise keeping. I can't speak for every single person on this forum, but most of us try to be open-minded and if you keep your tortoise in a different manner than most of us yet have good results, I'd actually like to see you share that info so others can benefit. If you can justify, explain, back-up, etc. what your methods are...why not share?


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## Alaskamike

@N2TORTS 
In fairness the examples you site are congenital defects - not disease transmission or parasitic resistance & susceptibility. But .... 

I spent 20 yrs in Alaska and did some work out in the "Bush" with native people. The horrific plagues of flu, pneumonia, and several other diseases , brought to them courtesy of Europeans, almost wiped out entire cultures. They had little resistance to new pathogens. And they were all humans. 

You are certainly correct that the term " species" has come under some revision & valid question in the Biological Community. But the evolutionary process to develop the individual biology of Redfoot and the Aldabra occurred over 100'rds of 1000'ds of years , Unlike the canine with at most a 30k history of domestication. 

Not being argumentative here , just throwing in some thought.


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## wellington

Careym13 said:


> I think you make some interesting points. It's good to see some "sideliners" jumping in on this thread. My question though, what harm is done in the event 20 people actually did suggest that you read Tom's threads? Wouldn't that suggest that 20 people actually care about your tortoise's well-being and are willing to help you out?
> 
> I think different standards of care are a good thing, we can all learn from different methods of tortoise keeping. I can't speak for every single person on this forum, but most of us try to be open-minded and if you keep your tortoise in a different manner than most of us yet have good results, I'd actually like to see you share that info so others can benefit. If you can justify, explain, back-up, etc. what your methods are...why not share?



This is almost what I wanted to say. The last part. Share what you do, but include where you live too. Try not to leave out any important details. Someone living in humid Florida and doesn't have to use a lot of artificial drying heat, can probably get away with no extra humidity, etc. However, someone living in AZ or any other hot and dry area, well their torts probably wouldn't turn out so smooth, even if they didn't use artificial heating/lights. 
I'm sure everyone would love to find an easier way without so much artificial heat/lights/humidity. 
Start a thread and share your details please. Even if everyone can't benefit from what you do, members that live in the same kind of climate as you could. 
The bigger problem when someone wants to dispute what we know as good husbandry comes when there is no proof to back up their claim. You showed your tort, now please share your husbandry. Also if possible, share how your tortoise was started by the breeder. Most if not all the time, the first few weeks/months in the breeders hands will have a lot to do with how the tortoises will turn out with pyramiding.


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## SteveW

Alaskamike said:


> Total agreement is highly overrated.


 
I totally agree


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## N2TORTS

I stayed away from the thread for a few days ....but hey another log on the fire never hurts...
How we all learn right?......Now I wish my own Doctors would have their own forum....


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## SteveW

Careym13 said:


> My question though, what harm is done in the event 20 people actually did suggest that you read Tom's threads? Wouldn't that suggest that 20 people actually care about your tortoise's well-being and are willing to help you out?
> ?



It's kind of like going out to dinner with a group that includes vegans, gluten-free, Paleo, etc, that want to lecture me about my beer and hamburger. If I'm in good health (I am) and my doctor's not worried about (he's not) then unsolicited advice is annoying and more than a little presumptuous.


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## Prairie Mom

SteveW said:


> ; I've had a leopard tortoise since May (not my first tortoise). She's grown from 53gr to 170gr. I don't feed her Mazuri, don't use a closed chamber, don't use oil on her shell. I'm pleased with her growth.
> View attachment 151404
> 
> Oh yeah, she's in an aquarium too.


A lot of other keepers don't use the same practices that you mentioned and I have seen others that use aquariums too. I hear what you're saying and am glad that you decided to speak up. I hope you and other "sideliners" will speak up more often. I like hearing more points of view


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## SteveW

wellington said:


> I'm sure everyone would love to find an easier way without so much artificial heat/lights/humidity.
> Start a thread and share your details please. Even if everyone can't benefit from what you do, members that live in the same kind of climate as you could.
> The bigger problem when someone wants to dispute what we know as good husbandry comes when there is no proof to back up their claim. You showed your tort, now please share your husbandry. Also if possible, share how your tortoise was started by the breeder. Most if not all the time, the first few weeks/months in the breeders hands will have a lot to do with how the tortoises will turn out with pyramiding.



I can't help you with easy; I have 2-4 hygrometers per enclosure and 3 different lights plus CHE. Also in California so no humidity benefit there. I'll start my own thread and see how it goes. My apologies to the OP for the unintended hijacking.


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## SteveW

wellington said:


> The bigger problem when someone wants to dispute what we know as good husbandry comes when there is no proof to back up their claim. You showed your tort, now please share your husbandry. Also if possible, share how your tortoise was started by the breeder. Most if not all the time, the first few weeks/months in the breeders hands will have a lot to do with how the tortoises will turn out with pyramiding.



Sorry, one more thing; who is the 'we' to which you refer? How much of the knowledge you reference is from your own experience, how much repeated? If it's repeated (and I don't know if this is the case,) then doesn't accuracy require you to state that? 
One more one more thing; your last statement seems to indicate the lack of pyramiding is due to the breeders efforts rather than mine. I would counter than anyone posting a 'I have a 6 month old leopard' thread would receive the requisite 20 'read Toms threads' replies. It seems as though you are already building a case against different information before it's even presented. 

The relevance to this thread isn't my approach (which isn't that different in net) it's that the wave of group consensus doesn't further discussion, doesn't encourage creativity, and doesn't inspire outsiders/interlopers/crackpots like myself to be involved. 
Ok, now no more high jacking


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## Careym13

SteveW said:


> It's kind of like going out to dinner with a group that includes vegans, gluten-free, Paleo, etc, that want to lecture me about my beer and hamburger. If I'm in good health (I am) and my doctor's not worried about (he's not) then unsolicited advice is annoying and more than a little presumptuous.


I can understand that point of view, as I spent many years as a strict vegetarian. However, if I were to engage in a public forum that routinely discussed the different styles, methods, etc. of vegetarianism (even as observer)...I would fully expect to have people with differing opinions offer me or others info or suggestions as to my eating habits or those of others. I certainly wouldn't take things personally, find them annoying or find them presumptuous. Especially not if it were merely because numerous members suggested I read a helpful thread. 

People often come to TFO to learn and help others learn. Isn't that the point after all? How can that be accomplished if members must walk on egg shells and count the number of times a suggestion was made in one specific thread as to not duplicate info at the risk of offending the OP? 

Many people here take time out of their lives to jump on the forum to try to contribute as their day allows. Sometimes that leads to a duplication of information. I'm sorry you feel the way you do and I hope for others they can see that most of us are only trying to help...nothing more.


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## SteveW

Apparently that came across more boorish than intended. My apologies. Perhaps I just really need a beer and hamburger


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## Careym13

SteveW said:


> Apparently that came across more boorish than intended. My apologies. Perhaps I just really need a beer and hamburger


Well, as we speak, I am out cooking on the grill...not vegetables either.


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## wellington

SteveW said:


> Sorry, one more thing; who is the 'we' to which you refer? How much of the knowledge you reference is from your own experience, how much repeated? If it's repeated (and I don't know if this is the case,) then doesn't accuracy require you to state that?
> One more one more thing; your last statement seems to indicate the lack of pyramiding is due to the breeders efforts rather than mine. I would counter than anyone posting a 'I have a 6 month old leopard' thread would receive the requisite 20 'read Toms threads' replies. It seems as though you are already building a case against different information before it's even presented.
> 
> The relevance to this thread isn't my approach (which isn't that different in net) it's that the wave of group consensus doesn't further discussion, doesn't encourage creativity, and doesn't inspire outsiders/interlopers/crackpots like myself to be involved.
> Ok, now no more high jacking



You totally misunderstood my last statement. Only stating that if a breeder hatches and keeps his torts hot and dry, that usually or at least sometimes promotes pyramiding no matter what you do to prevent it. Yes, I have experience with my first leopard on this.
The only experience I have is with my own leopards, no breeding yet, well at least nothing hatched yet and some when I was much younger with turtles. I'm not stupid though and can read and learn just like everyone else has in the beginning of their tortoise years. Not one single person has ever been born with the knowledge they have now. Everyone has learned it, some has then been able to experience it, some sooner then later. I pass on the info that I have learned from here FROM A FEW MEMBERS I TRUST AND SHARES THEIR PROOF OF WHAT THEY SAY, common sense, my vet tech years, and all the other years I was in some kind of dog work. I take owning animals very seriously, so I do my home work. I spend lots of money on my animals, so yes, I try to learn everything I can to do it right! The threads (Toms) are at the bottom of every post I make. Some of it I unfortunately found out too late, all of it I pass on.
I asked for you to,share your info because it would be great to,learn what you have done. It is important though to know your location. If you want to argue, I'm not going to bite.
Btw, you have how much experience yourself? One leopard or two. Maybe your to argumentive to help others.


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## wellington

N2TORTS said:


> I stayed away from the thread for a few days ....but hey another log on the fire never hurts...
> How we all learn right?......Now I wish my own Doctors would have their own forum....



You would think so, but some people think they were born with tort knowledge and experience. They must be special
Then again they tell us nothing of their experience, are a member for a very short time, but yet, we should worship every word they say.
I need a vacation.


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## wellington

SteveW said:


> It's kind of like going out to dinner with a group that includes vegans, gluten-free, Paleo, etc, that want to lecture me about my beer and hamburger. If I'm in good health (I am) and my doctor's not worried about (he's not) then unsolicited advice is annoying and more than a little presumptuous.


Those are people that know you. You've only been here a few months, don't tell us much, but we are suppose to know you k ow what your doing. A post on a forum is not unsolicited advice. You put it out there for people to comment on. If your doing something very dangerous to any animal, I will tell you so and don't care if your feelings were hurt or not. It's not about you or and ego, it's only, at least from me, the animal.


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## Careym13

wellington said:


> Those are people that know you. You've only been here a few months, don't tell us much, but we are suppose to know you k ow what your doing. A post on a forum is not unsolicited advice. You put it out there for people to comment on. If your doing something very dangerous to any animal, I will tell you so and don't care if your feelings were hurt or not. It's not about you or and ego, it's only, at least from me, the animal.


I agree. As I stated earlier in this thread, I'd rather have someone upset with me than have their animal be injured or dead.


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## N2TORTS

BTW Mr. Tom and Yvonne .....I have the upmost respect for your knowledge on all animals regardless if torti'......just thought I would bring some questions into the pic and see some other folks answer (Good Job Mike). For the OP sorry for the Hijack ....and my 2-cents. For myself I go to great extents for separation of my own "species of torts", as well as the gene quality within the same species....and I keep very good records. Plus I have proof of the babies I produce, and some out comes years later. My Hypo project for instance did not happen overnight - breeding torts for genetic quality Ex: Colors does not happen at random (Alegra's beautiful cherries for instance- result of outstanding parents and tortoise keeping for them to produce) and they sure don't breed like rats. My first tortoise owned was 1971....I'm no spring chicken... and lucky enough to have some ties with the San Diego Zoo that helped along the way.
Be happy~ Cheers!


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## SteveW

wellington said:


> You would think so, but some people think they were born with tort knowledge and experience. They must be special
> Then again they tell us nothing of their experience, are a member for a very short time, but yet, we should worship every word they say.
> I need a vacation.



Oh Wellington, perhaps you do need a vacation. I can't tell if you're being ironic on purpose or not, but regardless, you're making my point beautifully. Just so we're all clear, you're not hurting my feelings. Nor do I think I'm special, born with knowledge or should be worshiped. Im not sure why you are adding such emotional invective, but that's on you, I had nothing to do with it. I mentioned my approach only to illustrate how sideways things get when a post is out of line with TFO common knowledge. This initially seemed relevant to Toms original question of how to approach folks about possible deficiencies in their care. Your demonstrated approach is to question my intelligence, ascribe to me all manner of self importance, and go out of your way to point out my outsider status. 
This seems like a poor outreach strategy and oddly mean spirited. 
So to answer the OP, I'd say, dont respond as demonstrated here.


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## DeanS

dmmj said:


> I usually don't say something unless I am asked.


...and you've got nearly 15,000 posts to prove it!


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## wellington

SteveW said:


> Oh Wellington, perhaps you do need a vacation. I can't tell if you're being ironic on purpose or not, but regardless, you're making my point beautifully. Just so we're all clear, you're not hurting my feelings. Nor do I think I'm special, born with knowledge or should be worshiped. Im not sure why you are adding such emotional invective, but that's on you, I had nothing to do with it. I mentioned my approach only to illustrate how sideways things get when a post is out of line with TFO common knowledge. This initially seemed relevant to Toms original question of how to approach folks about possible deficiencies in their care. Your demonstrated approach is to question my intelligence, ascribe to me all manner of self importance, and go out of your way to point out my outsider status.
> This seems like a poor outreach strategy and oddly mean spirited.
> So to answer the OP, I'd say, dont respond as demonstrated here.


Really, you can question me, my experience take my interest in knowing what you do and twist it as if I was attacking you. Yet, when I reply back, you twist it again. That's fine, I know who I will listen too and learn from.


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## SteveW

wellington said:


> Really, you can question me, my experience take my interest in knowing what you do and twist it as if I was attacking you. Yet, when I reply back, you twist it again. That's fine, I know who I will listen too and learn from.



Can we please just have a do over? Somehow this went from hypothetical to personal. I have no reason to doubt your knowledge or sincerity, my point was if a post/picture were to be criticized, as per the OP, then detailing what you know and how you know it would be important to gain credibility. 
I have no illusions that anyone's chomping at the bit to learn from me. I'm good with that. Again, I only chimed in to describe what happens to out of step opinions, and on that front at least I was successful. Regardless, I'm sorry you felt attacked or that I was twisting words against. Not at all what I was going for.


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## maybe

Not everyone has time to sit on this app/website to comment on everything right or wrong. Nobody is perfect, everyone is human. The constant bashing of a "newbie"(which is outrageous title), is not helpful. You only prevent someone from enjoying this form. This form is a wonderful research tool, and everyone should be grateful to share tortoise/turtle information. There is no exact way to do anything, raising tortoises is not an exact science. Bad things happen and unfortunately that's life. But this is planet earth & everyone is different. Children are not all raised the same, neither are tortoises. So maybe jump off your cloud and think before your feel the need to repeat a point that YOU think is important. Being informative is great, the form needs more people that are... But having every little picture/post put under a microscope is petty to say the least...


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## wellington

SteveW said:


> Can we please just have a do over? Somehow this went from hypothetical to personal. I have no reason to doubt your knowledge or sincerity, my point was if a post/picture were to be criticized, as per the OP, then detailing what you know and how you know it would be important to gain credibility.
> I have no illusions that anyone's chomping at the bit to learn from me. I'm good with that. Again, I only chimed in to describe what happens to out of step opinions, and on that front at least I was successful. Regardless, I'm sorry you felt attacked or that I was twisting words against. Not at all what I was going for.


Glad to have a do over. However, I would still be very interested in what you do and how it's set up. I'm sure others would too and would be nuts, in my opinion, to not.


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## Alaskamike

I don't think we need a do over. 
Personally the divergent viewpoints are good for all of us - if , and this is a big "if" , we think about what is expressed and don't take contrary ideas as a personal attack. 
Presumably we all have our big boy panties on, and a question like Tom's origional post , as well as the follow up comments all have merit. The issue of over critical comments and ' group think' behavior on TFO, especially as expressed to a new member looking for a forum to participate in, should not be avoided for fear of controversy. Earlier in this thread some mention the hope that new members don't read this thread. I'm of the opposite mind, & hope they do. At least some would see how seriously we take these issues and have a willingness to discuss them. 

I tried before joining TFO to participate in another tortoise forum - bored the s_ _ _ outta me. Here there is quality info , great variety , and a huge membership. If you need to know something - get a question answered, it's almost immediately done. 

That being said, it is apparent to me that there is an inside crowd of established members who have through their history of tortoise keeping - multitude of posts - and shear force of their personalities , set the standards and tone of advise. 

To contradict the pervading "facts" of best practice husbandry established here , invites rapid contradiction, often by people who are not greatly experienced ,but merely repeating group think mentality. 

A good example of this is the thread in debatable topics on the use of coconut oil on shells to hold in hydration and prevent pyramiding, started by @glitch. He hung in there and made his case , at least to me & in the dry season here , I use it. 

Other controversial subjects are taking tortoises from the wild, cross breeding, and the size of enclosures. Many times I've seen the advice for a 4'x8' indoor enclosure for a baby. Really? Most people don't provide that themselves or have that kind of room. But this has become the " standard" so it is repeated. 

And I know the leaders here strongly oppose cross breeding. But really that is opinion. Creating albinos, or breeding for color seems accepted. But how many lepocata do we see? Almost none. For if a photo of one is posted it would be jumped on. 

I would caution all of us to avoid argument from authority. If someone can demonstrate results, or explain ideas with scientific credibility I take it seriously. No matter how new they are, or lack of many posts.


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## N2TORTS

Well said Mike.....
You are soooooo right!
Here about 6-7 years ago ........"Lepracuttas" - I took so much flak for them ...


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## TerrapinStation

Just want to thank everybody for all the info here. I am a very new member, but have had my tortoise for almost 3 years. Before we got him, i did a lot of research and am lucky to have a pet shop in town that are very knowledgeable on tortoises and committed to selling them only to owners that are aware of their care, diet, disposition and especially life span & growth potential. 

I said it in another post, but from what I have seen in my short time (but plentiful binge reading) on this forum, the "corrective" comments are direct, to the point and strictly business in their nature. We consider our tortoise a member of the family, as most of us do, and his well being comes before my ego or emotional feelings.

I was a member on a kayaking forum, where some of the senior members were condescending, rude, brash and even insulting to new members with "silly" questions. They also were very quick to bash those that had entry level/cheaper kayaks. It got so bad I had to leave because they were driving away more new members than they were retaining. It was a real shame because those senior members had so much knowledge they could share, but instead chose to be rude and insulting.


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## bouaboua

This is why I offer my sandwich approach.


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## dmmj

bouaboua said:


> This is why I offer my sandwich approach.


I think you're going to have to explain that one.


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## jaizei

dmmj said:


> I think you're going to have to explain that one.



Sandwich criticism between compliments.


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## dmmj

jaizei said:


> Sandwich criticism between compliments.


my bad I thought it involves a lot of mayonnaise and mustard.


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## bouaboua

dmmj said:


> I think you're going to have to explain that one.


I always have something nice to say when I see a "inappropriate" post or photo from a new forum member on one of the Chinese forum that I'm on. Or I try. 

Then I will give my suggestion or "correction". People are taking it nicely.......most of the time, but some will never learn, and argue with you all the way. Then I let them go, because I know I did try, and I can't change everyone or someone may have some sideline about it.

I think it is the word we choose, and the tone we use.


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## Alaskamike

TerrapinStation said:


> Just want to thank everybody for all the info here. I am a very new member, but have had my tortoise for almost 3 years. Before we got him, i did a lot of research and am lucky to have a pet shop in town that are very knowledgeable on tortoises and committed to selling them only to owners that are aware of their care, diet, disposition and especially life span & growth potential.
> 
> I said it in another post, but from what I have seen in my short time (but plentiful binge reading) on this forum, the "corrective" comments are direct, to the point and strictly business in their nature. We consider our tortoise a member of the family, as most of us do, and his well being comes before my ego or emotional feelings.
> 
> I was a member on a kayaking forum, where some of the senior members were condescending, rude, brash and even insulting to new members with "silly" questions. They also were very quick to bash those that had entry level/cheaper kayaks. It got so bad I had to leave because they were driving away more new members than they were retaining. It was a real shame because those senior members had so much knowledge they could share, but instead chose to be rude and insulting.



Especially this 
"I was a member on a kayaking forum, where some of the senior members were condescending, rude, brash and even insulting to new members"

Personally though I read many threads - I rarely see this here. 

Open , blunt, factual , repeating the same advice multiple times , and quick judgments on a single photo - yes. And none of that is really offensive ( to me ) but does need tempered sometimes. 

We are all human. Our feelings are real and influencing. Depending on a persons self confidence and awareness we all react differently. 

I'm the guy you can call a bastard to my face and I'll ask you with a smile what makes you think so ? 

If your reasons are sound I might even agree with you. 

Others start crying if someone frowns at them. 

So where is the happy middle ground ? We have to search for it. That's what we do.


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## Nephelle

I feel the need to follow up on a certain point that I've seen pop up over and over again in this thread and many others.

The words "Ego" and "Arrogance" often come up about new members when anyone questions the general methods of care endorsed on this forum. And while, yes, there are those stubborn (and rude) souls that refuse to read the information to compare/contrast against their own standards of husbandry, there are also those who simply find it a lot to take in.

@Alaskamike said it best in another thread (now deleted) that it is a hard road for those new to the forums to take. Many times they have spent quite a bit of money on things the pet store or their vet or another website has told them to buy, thinking it was the best for their tortoise. When they come here and are immediately told it is ALL WRONG, that is a very difficult thing.

Personally, I have spent far more than my budget can allow in the past month, trying to match the standard of care recommended on this website. I had not planned for it to this excess, and we are definitely feeling it now. I am not sorry for this, as I took on the responsibility, but it hasn't been easy.

However, when those words come up in immediate response to ANYONE with less than 100 posts questioning a method of care, it saddens me. I do not believe that everyone who doesn't immediately hop on the bandwagon is being deliberately neglectful or insistent that their method of care is better. Sometimes it just takes a bit for information to sink in. Sometimes people want to ask their vet, question the pet store, do further research, save up the money, etc etc etc. And, unfortunately, sometimes people get immediately defensive because that is their learned reaction to being "wrong".

There are a lot of ways new members are shut down in these threads--not just by comments on inappropriate care as the OP suggested. The mods are often hostile to each other or other members. The members themselves are a closed group that is incredibly difficult to break into unless you are willing to post pretty much every day in a manner that agrees wholeheartedly with the rest of the group. And there is a definite "hazing" process that involves 1) reading the caresheets 2) proving you read the caresheets by asking specific questions from them and 3) formulating those questions to agree 100% with everything you read.

I wish there were more new, active members here. People I could share my struggles and frustrations with. Ways to post those struggles and frustrations without being afraid I'm going to sway the popular crowd against me. I am on these forums every day. I like being here. I like the people here. I like the debates, the information, the experience and the learning. But, it's hard to be the new kid on the block in TFO. Trust me on that.


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## TerrapinStation

I can see and understand above frustrations. I worked at the same job for almost 12 years (16-28) at a restaurant, working my way up from dishwasher to night chef, then left to start a new job in a completely different field (welding!) It was really tough for me to go back to the bottom of the ladder, to be the new guy getting his chops busted, learning instead of teaching, bossed around instead of doing the bossing. It has humbled me some and I am glad to learn.... But everyone has a different attitude towards these things I guess...


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## ascott

Nephelle said:


> I feel the need to follow up on a certain point that I've seen pop up over and over again in this thread and many others.
> 
> The words "Ego" and "Arrogance" often come up about new members when anyone questions the general methods of care endorsed on this forum. And while, yes, there are those stubborn (and rude) souls that refuse to read the information to compare/contrast against their own standards of husbandry, there are also those who simply find it a lot to take in.
> 
> @Alaskamike said it best in another thread (now deleted) that it is a hard road for those new to the forums to take. Many times they have spent quite a bit of money on things the pet store or their vet or another website has told them to buy, thinking it was the best for their tortoise. When they come here and are immediately told it is ALL WRONG, that is a very difficult thing.
> 
> Personally, *I have spent far more than my budget can allow in the past month, trying to match the standard of care recommended on this website. I had not planned for it to this excess, and we are definitely feeling it now.* I am not sorry for this, as I took on the responsibility, but it hasn't been easy.
> 
> However, when those words come up in immediate response to ANYONE with less than 100 posts questioning a method of care, it saddens me. I do not believe that everyone who* doesn't immediately hop on the bandwagon* is being deliberately neglectful or insistent that their method of care is better. Sometimes it just takes a bit for information to sink in. Sometimes people want to ask their vet, question the pet store, do further research, save up the money, etc etc etc. And, unfortunately, sometimes people get immediately defensive because that is their learned reaction* to being "wrong".*
> 
> There are a lot of ways new members are shut down in these threads--not just by comments on inappropriate care as the OP suggested. The mods are often hostile to each other or other members. *The members themselves are a closed group *that is incredibly difficult to break into unless you are willing to post pretty much every day *in a manner that agrees wholeheartedly with the rest of the group.* And there is a definite *"hazing" process that involves 1) reading the caresheets 2) proving you read the caresheets by asking specific questions from them and 3) formulating those questions to agree 100% with everything you read.*
> 
> _*I wish there were more new, active members here. People I could share my struggles and frustrations with. Ways to post those struggles and frustrations without being afraid I'm going to sway the popular crowd against me. I am on these forums every day. I like being here. I like the people here. I like the debates, the information, the experience and the learning. But, it's hard to be the new kid on the block in TFO. Trust me on that.[/*QUOTE] _




Well my dear, if you have gone through some of my prior posts you will see that I have a person or two that belong to the "closed group" that would rather I shut the hell up most days....hugely due to some of the reasons you mention here, I have a real problem with "bandwagons" the phrase "wrong" when a new member arrives (unless someone directly invites me to say so)...."hazing" (except in good mutual fun) and I absolutely don't agree 100% with the Closed group riding around in their bandwagon deciding who is next to be hazed, while believing they are the crew to decide who is right or wrong...no thanks....

The "popular crowd" only is allowed by the totality of he forum membership...I see no one as the popular crowd (perhaps a bit arrogant and self absorbed) and therefore I will continue to keep people on my ignore member list or have an verbal slap fight once in a while...both work fine with me.

I am of the mindset that just because someone is new to this sight does not mean they are new to this planet and should be treated with face value respect. I am of the mindset that new members bring a rush of fresh air to the sometimes stagnant funk that lingers some days. I am of the mindset that there is no one person on this forum that has all of the answers in a life purposely full of variables...however, Josh came up with a brilliant idea in creating a place where folks can share all they know, all they have learned, all that they have heard and their take on what they have heard, a place where folks should be able to collectively come up with combined ideas to better improve the lives of the reptiles forced captive in our care....I have also never seen why folks get such a wad going when more than one person asks similar questions over and over again---there is never the exact outcome because there is rarely the same variables in play--the folks who believe that repeated questions should offer repeated exact solutions, in my opinion, is missing the point.

Tortoise should not cost you so much that you and the fam have to go without in a noticeable way....do not drive yourself crazy, take a deep breath, do not take the cool opportunity to get to know a tortoise and cloud that by so much stress...remember, stress is bad...oh and don't worry about pissing off the "popular crowd"....the rest of the herd is always here....[/QUOTE]


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## ascott

"someone is new to this sight" oopss....damn auto correct, should of course been "site"


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## terryo

Angela...I wish I could express myself like you do. You always say just what I want to, but it never comes out the right way. I think you are amazing.


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## Tom

Tom said:


> All opinion and discussion is welcome here. What do you guys do when you see this sort of thing?



REMINDER:
The above quote is the end of post number 1 of this thread.

I think all of this discussion is fantastic. I'm thankful for all points of view expressed here, and thankful for everyone who has taken the time to comment.

If I didn't care about others, I would have no dilemma regarding this subject, and no need for this thread. The opinions expressed here have the potential to make me a better person, and also to help our forum be even better. This is what I'm most thankful for.


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## Cowboy_Ken

I just wanted to help bring us back to the title of this thread…


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## Tom

SteveW said:


> Interesting thread. As a sideline participant, it often appears to me that the TFO regulars/pretend chatters/socializers (I'm not knocking it, just not my scene) don't always realize that there is more than just TFO vs the Petco refugees in the hobby, and not everyone with knowledge/experience agrees with the TFO standard of care.
> Here's an example; I've had a leopard tortoise since May (not my first tortoise). She's grown from 53gr to 170gr. I don't feed her Mazuri, don't use a closed chamber, don't use oil on her shell. I'm pleased with her growth.
> 
> Oh yeah, she's in an aquarium too.
> I think I might have some things to share of interest on, say, microclimates. I've not shared previously because I don't need 20 people telling me to read Toms threads. I've read them and appreciate them, but that doesn't end the discussion, at least not for me. So anyway, to provide at least one additional answer to the original question, if you have first hand knowledge, solid reasoning, or a source you can point to, then drop some knowledge and don't worry so much about diplomacy. If you don't have those things, then all the diplomacy in the world doesn't change the fact that you are just the first to arrive from the bandwagon.
> And now I await your diplomatic replies



Where have you been hiding lurker man? You've got some good info to share here.

Here is the problem: Many people come to this site and make all sorts of assertions and do nothing to back up where those assertions came from, or why they think the things they think. I, on the other hand, have provided years and years of hard cold facts. Proof. People all over the world have duplicated my set ups and gotten the same positive results. One of the many things I've been accused of is that I think MY way is the ONLY way. This is total non-sense, but that is the accusation. If that accusation were true, why would I continue experimenting and trying to learn new things year after year? Why would I want you to explain in detail what YOUR methods of success have been?

When I started here on this forum a few years back I came in talking about all this same stuff with humidity and hydration. Some of the "regulars" jumped me pretty hard. I got some really nasty PMs. I persevered because I knew I was right and I knew they were wrong and I was determined to show them. After months of arguing I decided to "Put up or shut up" and asked the same of my "opponents". I started three new hatchlings "MY" way and asked them to do the same, so that we could compare results every so often for months or years to come. If I was wrong, then their predictions would come true and I would like like the total idiot that they thought I was. If THEY were wrong… well. You know… This is where the "End of Pyramiding" thread came from, and it is still going strong 5 years later. None of my opponents chose to take me up on my offer, but many of them got real quiet and left when the sky didn't fall as they strongly asserted it would. I'm very sad that they left just because some young upstart hd something new to teach them. Many of those guys open their minds and learned a little something. They tested my theories and methods for themselves and found something useful and worthwhile.

I'm asking you to do the same thing that I did. I don't care how anyone is achieving success, I want to know all about it. I want to LEARN from YOUR experience. Start a thread. Explain the techniques. Show your success. I will happily go toe to toe with anyone that want to hassle ANY PERSON that is demonstrating a new, novel successful way to care for tortoises.

And by the way, I also use glass tanks, I also don't rub oil on their shells, but I do feed some Mazuri from time to time… My point is that you aren't so far off base from the "regulars" as you might think.

I can't speak for everyone, but my mind is wide open. Teach me. SHow me what worked and how you did it. Convince me with lots of evidence and lots of similar cases. Please.

One last thing: Have you read my threads???


----------



## leigti

@SteveW you haven't researched enough on the site to realize that not everybody thinks the same way. Not everybody does things the same way. Everybody's situation is different. You sound like you were being some sort of rebel raising your tortoise the way you are. But you're not. Many people do the same exact thing you do and do just fine. Many people do things totally different and do just fine. The information given on this for him is all given with good intentions. But you still have to tweak it to fit your exact situation. 
For instance, when I upgraded and enclosure I followed a bunch of specific recommendations for lighting and heating etc. None of them worked well enough. So I had to take a combination of the suggestions until I found what worked. That doesn't mean I badmouth the people who gave me information that didn't work, or thought other people were absolute tortoise gods for giving information that was closer to what works for me.
Read all you can, be open-minded, and figure out what works for you. But don't badmouth information that doesn't. Or the people that give it.


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## leigti

Cowboy_Ken said:


> View attachment 151548
> View attachment 151549
> View attachment 151550
> 
> I just wanted to help bring us back to the title of this thread…


It is often recommended that you do not keep tortoises in pairs.    thanks for a little tortoise porn just to bring us all back on track!


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## Bogie=babyDINO

Prairie Mom said:


> Now, this very helpful and interesting thread has given me courage to post some info on a photo I've observed recently. I'm off to try to do some good!


I think you were very well spoken on this thread, Praire mom!


----------



## SteveW

Tom said:


> Where have you been hiding lurker man? You've got some good info to share here.
> 
> Here is the problem: Many people come to this site and make all sorts of assertions and do nothing to back up where those assertions came from, or why they think the things they think. I, on the other hand, have provided years and years of hard cold facts. Proof. People all over the world have duplicated my set ups and gotten the same positive results. One of the many things I've been accused of is that I think MY way is the ONLY way. This is total non-sense, but that is the accusation. If that accusation were true, why would I continue experimenting and trying to learn new things year after year? Why would I want you to explain in detail what YOUR methods of success have been?
> 
> When I started here on this forum a few years back I came in talking about all this same stuff with humidity and hydration. Some of the "regulars" jumped me pretty hard. I got some really nasty PMs. I persevered because I knew I was right and I knew they were wrong and I was determined to show them. After months of arguing I decided to "Put up or shut up" and asked the same of my "opponents". I started three new hatchlings "MY" way and asked them to do the same, so that we could compare results every so often for months or years to come. If I was wrong, then their predictions would come true and I would like like the total idiot that they thought I was. If THEY were wrong… well. You know… This is where the "End of Pyramiding" thread came from, and it is still going strong 5 years later. None of my opponents chose to take me up on my offer, but many of them got real quiet and left when the sky didn't fall as they strongly asserted it would. I'm very sad that they left just because some young upstart hd something new to teach them. Many of those guys open their minds and learned a little something. They tested my theories and methods for themselves and found something useful and worthwhile.
> 
> I'm asking you to do the same thing that I did. I don't care how anyone is achieving success, I want to know all about it. I want to LEARN from YOUR experience. Start a thread. Explain the techniques. Show your success. I will happily go toe to toe with anyone that want to hassle ANY PERSON that is demonstrating a new, novel successful way to care for tortoises.
> 
> And by the way, I also use glass tanks, I also don't rub oil on their shells, but I do feed some Mazuri from time to time… My point is that you aren't so far off base from the "regulars" as you might think.
> 
> I can't speak for everyone, but my mind is wide open. Teach me. SHow me what worked and how you did it. Convince me with lots of evidence and lots of similar cases. Please.
> 
> One last thing: Have you read my threads???



I'm sorry, which threads are you referring to? 

I'll put together a thread and show you what I'm up to, but I can offer no revolution. I too stress hydration, I just approach a little differently. So you and I are clear, I wasn't making assertions about my methods or taking shots at your methods. Furthermore, this is my first leopard and going on 6 months. She's off to a good start but miles away from proving anything. More of a proof of concept than a case study. 
What pulled me in from the lurking fringe was not some amazing insight, but your question about how to address the sometimes appalling ignorance or misguided care that some folks post. My point was (is) that bandwagoneers do more harm than good. By offering no insights beyond 'I know somebody that says that's wrong', particularly en mass the real message convened is 'you're not in the cool crowd'. I submit my experience as exhibit A. As you noted, I provided no differences that are really substantial. However, I've had my motivation, experience, and attitude questioned and in a fit of irony been called argumentative. If I really fit any of those descriptions I'd be gone already and if I was new to this tortoise world, I'd be running right back to petco for advice. Hence my suggestion that alternative methods be employed. 
I'm hoping this all sounds like constructive criticism and not a lecture.


----------



## Tom

Cowboy_Ken said:


> I just wanted to help bring us back to the title of this thread…



I'm sorry Ken. I just don't see any inappropriate tortoise pics here…

Unless of course your poor unfortunate tortoises are all living as pairs. If that is the case then I will try out Steven's technique on you:


You have nice grassy enclosures. 
Tortoises should not be kept in pairs! 
Your pancakes have lovely color and patterning. 


Okay Ken. How did that make you feel?


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## SteveW

leigti said:


> @SteveW you haven't researched enough on the site to realize that not everybody thinks the same way. Not everybody does things the same way. Everybody's situation is different. You sound like you were being some sort of rebel raising your tortoise the way you are. But you're not. Many people do the same exact thing you do and do just fine. Many people do things totally different and do just fine. The information given on this for him is all given with good intentions. But you still have to tweak it to fit your exact situation.
> For instance, when I upgraded and enclosure I followed a bunch of specific recommendations for lighting and heating etc. None of them worked well enough. So I had to take a combination of the suggestions until I found what worked. That doesn't mean I badmouth the people who gave me information that didn't work, or thought other people were absolute tortoise gods for giving information that was closer to what works for me.
> Read all you can, be open-minded, and figure out what works for you. But don't badmouth information that doesn't. Or the people that give it.



I'm going to respectfully disagree on all counts. I've read extensively and it was that reading that informed my post. I have no illusions of rebellion just because I think for myself. Nor do I think everybody here thinks the same way. Lastly, I didn't bad mouth people or ideas, I just didn't agree with all of them. That's significantly different. 

Ok, that's enough from me. Peace Out! (Drops mic)


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## Tom

SteveW said:


> I'm sorry, which threads are you referring to?
> 
> I'll put together a thread and show you what I'm up to, but I can offer no revolution. I too stress hydration, I just approach a little differently. So you and I are clear, I wasn't making assertions about my methods or taking shots at your methods. Furthermore, this is my first leopard and going on 6 months. She's off to a good start but miles away from proving anything. More of a proof of concept than a case study.
> What pulled me in from the lurking fringe was not some amazing insight, but your question about how to address the sometimes appalling ignorance or misguided care that some folks post. My point was (is) that bandwagoneers do more harm than good. By offering no insights beyond 'I know somebody that says that's wrong', particularly en mass the real message convened is 'you're not in the cool crowd'. I submit my experience as exhibit A. As you noted, I provided no differences that are really substantial. However, I've had my motivation, experience, and attitude questioned and in a fit of irony been called argumentative. If I really fit any of those descriptions I'd be gone already and if I was new to this tortoise world, I'd be running right back to petco for advice. Hence my suggestion that alternative methods be employed.
> I'm hoping this all sounds like constructive criticism and not a lecture.



Steve, You and I are crystal clear here. I made no assumptions, took no offense and jumped to no conclusions after reading your words. Your points are well thought out and worded very intelligently. I am receiving your messages in the way you intend them. Thank you for taking the time to repeatedly spell it out, even under the circumstances.

Even if you have only been using your methods for 6 months with one tortoise, the results from the one pic look pretty good, and I look forward to your thread explaining more. I promise not to link any of my threads on your thread, unless you ask for something specific.


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## Bogie=babyDINO

What a fun thread! So we love our tortoises, we talk about our tortoises, we argue about our tortoises and then we realize...we are all tortoises lovers and want the best for them! Lets all post more tortoise pics!!


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## Cowboy_Ken

Tom said:


> I'm sorry Ken. I just don't see any inappropriate tortoise pics here…
> 
> Unless of course your poor unfortunate tortoises are all living as pairs. If that is the case then I will try out Steven's technique on you:
> 
> 
> You have nice grassy enclosures.
> Tortoises should not be kept in pairs!
> Your pancakes have lovely color and patterning.
> 
> 
> Okay Ken. How did that make you feel?


Now I feel all warm inside! Thanks Tom ! 
It's dry in Oregon, but the land is less expensive than many USA locals...
Pancakes on newspaper isn't the best
Nice roomy outdoor ares for the sulcatas. 

Now I even feel fuzzy as well as warm.


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## Alaskamike

I feel it is important to say how much I appreciate this thread ( thanks @Tom ) and the great thought and time people have put in here. It is questions like this that are honestly asked and honestly answered that greatly improve TFO. 

Only a few forums I have visited have shown the level of maturity of TFO. 

Some people can tell you to go to hell and in spite of yourself you'll be looking for a ticket and a train to get there - they say it so diplomatically and kindly. Others can even make a complement sound like an accusation and get our dander up

This is inevitable and understandable but it does not mean we can't all improve. I know I can. 

The written word is more easily misunderstood than verbal communication. We can't see the person's expression , hear the tone in their voice or the smile on their face. 

One caution I would make - and this is for those with great experience and a willingness to teach and inform. It is way too easy to become defensive when your hard earned education and information is not immediately taken as fact. Or embraced and acted upon without hesitation or question. Be patient. Back up assertion with experience . Don't ask them how many torts they have raised - or how long they've been in the hobby. - show yours. 

Sometimes it is helpful if you talk about what YOU have done or would do in a similar situation rather than what THEY should do as a directive. This may sound obtuse but people tend to react better to a recount of personal experience than sentences that start with " You should ..." 

On a lighter note I do like the photos of torts humping , always makes me smile , but I'm perverse that way


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## Tom

Alaskamike said:


> One caution I would make - and this is for those with great experience and a willingness to teach and inform. It is way too easy to become defensive when your hard earned education and information is not immediately taken as fact. Or embraced and acted upon without hesitation or question. Be patient. Back up assertion with experience . Don't ask them how many torts they have raised - or how long they've been in the hobby. - show yours.



I am guilty of this one on many occasions, but it is in no way a defensive mechanism. It has nothing to do with ego or me feeling threatened or disrespected in any way. I do it to point out to the person arguing with me, and anyone reading, that they don't have a leg to stand on. A very good example of this is our own Ascott. Love her. Think she's great, even if she is proud to constantly point out that I'm on her ignore list. In the past couple of years, she keeps jumping on to threads about how best to raise baby sulcatas or russians and she makes all sorts of well worded, informative sounding assertions about what is best for these species. We don't argue anymore because she has me on ignore, but when we did argue, I did ask her how many baby sulcatas she had raised. How many russian tortoises was she caring for in the manner she was prescribing. I wanted her and everyone reading to know that the answer to both questions was ZERO. Here you have someone with zero experience with the subject matter, zero experience with babies of any species, arguing with someone who lives with those species daily and has literally raised hundreds. My assertions were/are based on the hundreds of babies I have raised the way I'm saying to raise them. I know what works and what doesn't because I have done it many ways hundreds of times. My opponent in the argument knows what? Her guesses? Her feelings on the matter? Isn't it reasonable and pertinent to point out to the people reading that the person telling them how to best to care for their baby or their russian tortoise has NEVER even done what they are telling others to do?

Lets use a different, hypothetical example. Suppose Steve had come on to the forum and said that "Tom's methods are all wrong and baby sulcatas should never be raised that way…" Of course he did nothing of the sort. (Sorry Steve you were just fresh in my mind…) Wouldn't it be reasonable to ask what he based that upon? Wouldn't it be reasonable to ask how he knows what he is asserting? How many babies has he raised "Tom's way" to know that there is something wrong with the method? What way is he using that he has lots of experience with that works better?

I don't know Mike… Seems like if someone is going to make an authoritative suggestion on how a given tortoise of a given age should be housed, they ought to be able to easily back up the assertion with some explanation of their experience. Seems like experience level ought to be a relevant factor in a discussion of differing husbandry techniques. Someone with no experience arguing with me about how best to raise sulcata or leopard tortoises would be like me arguing with Aldabraman about how best to raise Aldabras. I would expect Aldabraman, when confronted with me telling people to do the opposite of what he knows is best to ask me, "Hey Tom. Exactly how many Aldabra babies have you hatched and raised in the manner you are telling people to use here?" Of course my answer would be "zero" and those reading would be able to make a more informed decision about how to care for their Aldabra baby. This doesn't mean I am stupid or that I don't have something to offer here. It just means I don't know jack about raising Aldabras, because I have never done it. I would not find Aldabraman's question to be insulting, a personal attack, confrontational or degrading in any way. When I ask this question it is to either demonstrate that the arguer has no idea what they are talking about, like in Ascott's case, or to learn what they have to offer from their first hand experience like in Steve's case with his one leopard and 6 months of success.

The problem I have with "just showing" mine is that an intelligent person like Ascott can make a compelling, convincing argument, while never having to show her own results, because there are none. I could convince people how I think Aldabras should be raised, couldn't I? Aldabraman could post all the pics he wanted, but some percentage of people would still be swayed by my baseless words and arguments, wouldn't they? This is what I wish to prevent with this line of questioning.

Thoughts?


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## terryo

Tom, when I was born, my Dad had box turtles (also tortoises, which I didn't know what they were at the time) and I've raised them all my life. That's more than 60 years of raising box turtles, but you will never see me argue with anyone. I always tell people "that's just how I do it". I've also posted many pictures on how I do it, but still say "it's not written in stone". I've only had 7 years, with great success raising Red foots, but again I always say ..just how I do it. Why? Because I don't believe there is a right or wrong way. We always have to take in consideration where people live and the climate...inside or outside, etc. I do notice a lot of people on other forums actually getting mad at some keepers who aren't doing it right in their opinion, when they only have one tortoise. IMHO, lots of times it has to do with ego, and other times it has to do with their success and just wanting to share.


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## Elohi

I love this thread. Look! Humans! Actual caring, intelligent, passionate humans! 
Sorry, the rest of the Internet is usually so full of dark side of humanity. 
Jokes aside, I really do love this thread.


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## Tom

terryo said:


> ...Why? Because I don't believe there is a right or wrong way.



Terryo you are, and have always been, one of my favorite people on this forum. You are an example I point to for how to do it "right".

However, I have to disagree with the above statement. While I do think there is more than one "right" way to do things, there is most certainly a wrong way. There are lots of wrong ways. We see the wrong things constantly. Pet stores are constantly giving the wrong advice and selling the wrong products. We see baby tortoises die on this forum constantly because people did things one of many "wrong" ways. It is to try and prevent people from doing things the wrong way that I argue, fuss and fight so much. For example: The typical advice of raising leopard, sulcata, russian or DT hatchlings on dry substrate in a dry open topped tortoise table, feeding them romaine lettuce and soaking once a week is WRONG. Putting a red bulb over a 10 gallon tank with rabbit pellets and leaving it on 24/7 is wrong. Not soaking babies because they get all the water they need from their food is wrong. There are lots and lots of wrong ways, and I think it is a good thing to point them out, explain why they are bad, and offer better ways to do things.

There _is_ a right way. Your methods are one demonstration of this.

There is _also_ a wrong way and that is what I am here to combat against.


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## SteveW

Tom said:


> Suppose Steve had come on to the forum and said that "Tom's methods are all wrong and baby sulcatas should never be raised that way…" Of course he did nothing of the sort. (Sorry Steve you were just fresh in my mind…) ?



No apologies necessary. I'm happy to be a bad (even hypothetical) example. Right in my wheelhouse


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## Prairie Mom

hmmm...I'm thinking about the new question that has been posed in regards to expressing experience and Mike's cautions. I liked Mike's cautions, but I also see the point that sometimes it becomes necessary to ask if a poster actually has experience with the care they are professing to be the best method. -I'm not sure there is an easy answer. I'm also thinking about Terryo's thoughtful comment. I know one poster mentioned offense at the term "newbie". I'm a newbie and the term doesn't offend me. As someone that is new and needing help, I WOULD really like to know that Terryo has 60 years of experience raising box turtles. That made my jaw drop! That would be helpful to me and I would place more weight on her advice. It's difficult because how does a member let this be known without then being labeled as arrogant?

This makes me wish that members took more advantage of the "personal profile pages," so those were more frequently viewed. It would be cool if people made more of a habit of looking at WHO they're typing to. On the profile page, members could give this info there in a friendly way and offer to help anyone with that species or kind of care etc. I think I will go into mine and list my single little sulcata and what I feel that I could help with.

I too have loved reading this thread and have been really impressed with some of the viewpoints shared here.


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## Prairie Mom

A note in regards to comments made about picking apart threads and photos.

Yes, I agree that there have been times it has happened pretty badly. I think Steven's "sandwich" approach should be used often in the "enclosure" section.  None of the members who participated in this thread come to mind as people that have participated in some of the moments that made me cringe.

You might find this tidbit interesting---I wanted to share that I have participated in forums on the Tortoise Table. Many people don't realize that they have their own forums. I've posted under the same user name. There are a couple other not super active members here who have done the same. They give advice on housing and keeping species and the whole nine yards. (-They advise substrate to be a sand/soil mixture, which is why you see this from many overseas members who are surprised about the possibilities of impaction).

It was my gardening interest that brought me there. I was pretty excited and looking forward to some great dialogue about the ins and outs of feeding tortoises. I quickly found that I could post NOTHING. The people that run the forum are SO NICE and go out of their way to answer questions and help people, but the strictness and "only this way" approach was so bad that I couldn't feel comfortable posting anything! They were even encouraging members to shy away from strawberry leaves -strawberry leaves-! Anyway, just wanted to share that this forum isn't the only one that can be accused of strictness and crowd mentality. I think it happens on some level every where.


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## Turtlepete

Alaskamike said:


> View attachment 151620



Do I recognize someone there?


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## AnimalLady

Nephelle said:


> I feel the need to follow up on a certain point that I've seen pop up over and over again in this thread and many others.
> 
> The words "Ego" and "Arrogance" often come up about new members when anyone questions the general methods of care endorsed on this forum. And while, yes, there are those stubborn (and rude) souls that refuse to read the information to compare/contrast against their own standards of husbandry, there are also those who simply find it a lot to take in.
> 
> @Alaskamike said it best in another thread (now deleted) that it is a hard road for those new to the forums to take. Many times they have spent quite a bit of money on things the pet store or their vet or another website has told them to buy, thinking it was the best for their tortoise. When they come here and are immediately told it is ALL WRONG, that is a very difficult thing.
> 
> Personally, I have spent far more than my budget can allow in the past month, trying to match the standard of care recommended on this website. I had not planned for it to this excess, and we are definitely feeling it now. I am not sorry for this, as I took on the responsibility, but it hasn't been easy.
> 
> However, when those words come up in immediate response to ANYONE with less than 100 posts questioning a method of care, it saddens me. I do not believe that everyone who doesn't immediately hop on the bandwagon is being deliberately neglectful or insistent that their method of care is better. Sometimes it just takes a bit for information to sink in. Sometimes people want to ask their vet, question the pet store, do further research, save up the money, etc etc etc. And, unfortunately, sometimes people get immediately defensive because that is their learned reaction to being "wrong".
> 
> There are a lot of ways new members are shut down in these threads--not just by comments on inappropriate care as the OP suggested. The mods are often hostile to each other or other members. The members themselves are a closed group that is incredibly difficult to break into unless you are willing to post pretty much every day in a manner that agrees wholeheartedly with the rest of the group. And there is a definite "hazing" process that involves 1) reading the caresheets 2) proving you read the caresheets by asking specific questions from them and 3) formulating those questions to agree 100% with everything you read.
> 
> I wish there were more new, active members here. People I could share my struggles and frustrations with. Ways to post those struggles and frustrations without being afraid I'm going to sway the popular crowd against me. I am on these forums every day. I like being here. I like the people here. I like the debates, the information, the experience and the learning. But, it's hard to be the new kid on the block in TFO. Trust me on that.



Hey you,
We'll be new kids on the block together <3


----------



## terryo

Tom said:


> Terryo you are, and have always been, one of my favorite people on this forum. You are an example I point to for how to do it "right".
> 
> However, I have to disagree with the above statement. While I do think there is more than one "right" way to do things, there is most certainly a wrong way. There are lots of wrong ways. We see the wrong things constantly. Pet stores are constantly giving the wrong advice and selling the wrong products. We see baby tortoises die on this forum constantly because people did things one of many "wrong" ways. It is to try and prevent people from doing things the wrong way that I argue, fuss and fight so much. For example: The typical advice of raising leopard, sulcata, russian or DT hatchlings on dry substrate in a dry open topped tortoise table, feeding them romaine lettuce and soaking once a week is WRONG. Putting a red bulb over a 10 gallon tank with rabbit pellets and leaving it on 24/7 is wrong. Not soaking babies because they get all the water they need from their food is wrong. There are lots and lots of wrong ways, and I think it is a good thing to point them out, explain why they are bad, and offer better ways to do things.
> 
> There _is_ a right way. Your methods are one demonstration of this.
> 
> There is _also_ a wrong way and that is what I am here to combat against.



Oh Tom, I'm sorry, of course you're right about a wrong way. You know me, I have a hard time expressing myself. There are plenty of wrong ways. I can go into my local pet store and ask for a care sheet and I'll get a list of wrong ways. I guess what I meant was that anyone who has success with their tortoises/turtles even though it is different than what was suggested by experienced or non experienced keepers is doing OK. And thank you for that nice compliment.


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## leigti

It is interesting to hear what new members have to say. It saddens me that some feel that they get shut down on this forum. But part of me can definitely understand. I did a lot of research on this forum before and after I got my tortoise. If I would have joined and posted immediately with my first enclosure I definitely would have got A lot of suggestions for improvement. Maybe I would have got my feelings hurt, I had done research, I thought I was doing pretty well, I recognized the pet store people were clueless and did not follow their recommendations. And I am insecure. So maybe I would have reacted badly to A bunch of negative comments on what I thought was a good job, especially considering I had never had a reptile in my life and I love my animals very much and want to do the best for them.
It takes time and experience to get things right even with all the best information out there. It's hard to know what Will be best for your particular situation. And it's hard when there's nobody locally to talk to and you are just going on what is said on some website. I try to keep this in mind when I make suggestions to people. But I know there are times when I probably do come across more critical than I mean to be. I think we all want people to avoid the mistakes that we ourselves have made. But also, if I see an animal in danger I will say something with less regard for the owners feelings then for the welfare of the animal.


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## ascott

Tom said:


> I am guilty of this one on many occasions, but it is in no way a defensive mechanism. It has nothing to do with ego or me feeling threatened or disrespected in any way. I do it to point out to the person arguing with me, and anyone reading, that they don't have a leg to stand on. _*A very good example of this is our own Ascott. Love her. Think she's great,*_ even if she is proud to constantly point out that I'm on her ignore list. In the past couple of years, she_* keeps jumping on to threads about how best to raise baby sulcatas or russians*_ and she makes all sorts of well worded, informative sounding_* assertions*_ about what is best for these species. We don't argue anymore because she has me on ignore, but when we did argue,* I did ask her how many baby sulcatas she had raised. How many russian tortoises *was she caring for in the manner she was prescribing.* I wanted her *and everyone reading to know that the answer to both questions was ZERO. Here you have someone with zero experience with the subject matter,* zero experience with babies of any species*, arguing with someone who lives with those species daily and has literally* raised hundreds*. My assertions were/are based on the hundreds of babies I have raised the way I'm saying to raise them. I know what works and what doesn't because I have done it many ways hundreds of times. *My opponent* in the argument knows what? Her guesses? Her feelings on the matter? Isn't it reasonable and pertinent to point out to the people reading that the person telling them how to best to care for their baby or their russian tortoise has NEVER even done what they are telling others to do?
> 
> Lets use a different, hypothetical example. Suppose Steve had come on to the forum and said that "Tom's methods are all wrong and baby sulcatas should never be raised that way…" Of course he did nothing of the sort. (Sorry Steve you were just fresh in my mind…) Wouldn't it be reasonable to ask what he based that upon? Wouldn't it be reasonable to ask how he knows what he is asserting? How many babies has he raised "Tom's way" to know that there is something wrong with the method? What way is he using that he has lots of experience with that works better?
> 
> I don't know Mike… Seems like if someone is going to make an authoritative suggestion on how a given tortoise of a given age should be housed, they ought to be able to easily back up the assertion with some explanation of their experience. Seems like experience level ought to be a relevant factor in a discussion of differing husbandry techniques. Someone with no experience arguing with me about how best to raise sulcata or leopard tortoises would be like me arguing with Aldabraman about how best to raise Aldabras. I would expect Aldabraman, when confronted with me telling people to do the opposite of what he knows is best to ask me, "Hey Tom. Exactly how many Aldabra babies have you hatched and raised in the manner you are telling people to use here?" Of course my answer would be "zero" and those reading would be able to make a more informed decision about how to care for their Aldabra baby. This doesn't mean I am stupid or that I don't have something to offer here. It just means I don't know jack about raising Aldabras, because I have never done it. I would not find Aldabraman's question to be insulting, a personal attack, confrontational or degrading in any way. When I ask this question it is to either demonstrate that the arguer has no idea what they are talking about, like in Ascott's case, or to learn what they have to offer from their first hand experience like in Steve's case with his one leopard and 6 months of success.
> 
> The problem I have with "just showing" mine is that an intelligent person like Ascott can make a compelling, convincing argument, while never having to show her own results, because there are none. I could convince people how I think Aldabras should be raised, couldn't I? Aldabraman could post all the pics he wanted, but some percentage of people would still be swayed by my baseless words and arguments, wouldn't they? This is what I wish to prevent with this line of questioning.
> 
> Thoughts?



So, it would appear that me removing you from the land of the Ignored, well, essentially you were THE list...was premature, silly me. Tom, in this thread you make statements about your feelings of me "Love her" "Think she's great" along with on prior posts eluding to us being "friends" at one time? I will clarify here as I did on prior post , _with friends like you who needs enemies?_ I would not address someone I lay claim to think is great or a friend in the boorish manner in which you address me. 

Tom, you do not know me now nor before--you know nothing about me nor any life experiences I have had, let alone any experience I have with a variety of animals (including tortoise). You see, I did not come to this Forum trying to be anything other than a person wanting to know if anyone had ever dealt with a California Desert tortoise with failing salivary glands as I had never dealt with the issue personally, well of course Yvonne was the outreached hand , and while she did not lay claim to having all answers, she did share in conversation with me and at that moment that was what I needed, new ideas formed and I was able to better research and conclude my next steps...that was it. While I came here as a new member, I in no way was new to tortoise/reptiles-- I did not come here to be quizzed, to be challenged, to misguide, to mislead anyone--as you have tried desperately to paint me as.

I also do not know where you ever came up with the idea that I lay claim to currently housing Sulcata, Leopards, Russians--it clearly does and has always shown in my signature section of my profile, which shows up on all posts I add (purportedly not on all mobile apps? not my doing)showing my lovely son and the current tortoise I have in my care 4 California Desert Tortoise, 4 Redfoot Tortoise..along with two turtles and two dogs...so I do not know where your statements continue to come from in vain pointing out that I do not house Sulcata, Leopards, Russians....I never claimed to have any....so, really you are beating that dead bloated statement....you however, are incorrect beyond that in your assumptions....I have cared for a baby or two in my day and more recently a couple Redfoots...there are threads on this Forum to that point...however, *your* opinion matters not to me--I also make no assertions, I do however offer up* what I would do* in a variety of situations based on what a thread is about and taking into account my tortoise knowledge, I may offer my thoughts on a particular subject (oh, again with no regard to what Tom may think, could you imagine my boldness?hmmmm). Again, in my posts I have NEVER laid claim to be housing a species I don't. 

I remember the moment you turned into an Ahole with regards to me....there was a thread started about their Russian not opening its eyes and was lethargic and the person was going over their enclosure set up...and in that descriptive they said that they let the night temp drop into the 70s as instructed by you (because Russians like a night temp drop--this is indeed a true statement. if said tort is not a baby and is not in a closed chamber with constant high humidity) they were keeping the humidity up near 70%, even with the low night temps....I said to them that if their tortoise (baby tort) was going to be kept in the closed enclosure high humidity method (no mention of you by me, and on top of that a method in which you did not even invent to begin with, so again, no direct attack on you) then they may want to keep the night temps from getting cold with the high humidity and would want to bump the temps to no less than 80 including night time to assure that the tort did not get chilled because Russians do not do well in cool wet environment....I also shared that not all species nor all ages should be housed in a wet, closed, hot box....I also said that there are other factors that are as important to the over all health of the tort outside of high humidity....that was it.... *you* came on and blasted me and told me that I overstepped some boundary by being in a part of the forum for a species I don't keep, also according to you because I did not RAISE hundreds of Sulcata, Leopards, Russians like you do...really? You asserted that you are right and I am wrong, to which I said whatever and clearly let you know then, as I am now...your feelings and opinions of me are of no concern...none.

"Opponent" , you see here, again you appear to believe we are in some type of battle??? I am not on this Forum to battle anyone, however I never have nor will I ever turn away from someone trying to do me dirty...which you clearly are. This is entirely on you...but do not expect me to slink away, that won't happen. Toe to toe baby, all day.


----------



## ascott

terryo said:


> Angela...I wish I could express myself like you do. You always say just what I want to, but it never comes out the right way. I think you are amazing.



You are very generous with your kind words...and I adore you, always have


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## Nephelle

I am going to reference a post my partner made earlier in this thread by saying that the welfare of an animal is 100% contingent on the owner's feelings. Trying to separate those two things is the entire problem in a nutshell.

*You cannot and you will not make any worthwhile change in the life of an animal without changing the owner's attitude toward its care. *

There is a passion for good husbandry here that is undeniable. There is also a distinct lack of respect for the human element that is completely and utterly in charge of it. This has been demonstrated and bluntly stated over and over.

For me, this approach is...omg I'm going to say it!....wrong. If new members were welcomed in, if there were ways for them to participate without having to prostrate themselves before the group in an attitude of abject humiliation over their previous tortoise-keeping practices, if when they DID participate they were acknowledged and encouraged to continue doing so, the need for harsh correction and criticism would greatly decrease. This "spare the rod and spoil the child" attitude much of TFO takes is, in my opinion, helping no one.

Let me put it into a non-tortoise example:

I shop at my local co-op, which is ripe with vegan/vegetarian options and a very...very...small meat section. If every time I went to the co-op to buy chicken, the checker stopped the line to publicly point out that eating chicken is WRONG, that the care of the chicken was negligent and offered me 10 pounds of literature on the subject--I would probably stop shopping at the co-op.

Would I stop eating chicken? No, although I might make some changes. I might eat it less often, as my meals are now tinged with guilt, and I might make better choices on where that chicken is purchased and how it is kept. Or, I might decide that the checker is a know-it-all chicken loving hippie who needs to mind their own business.

So who wins? The checker? Me? I don't know, but I can promise you one thing...it certainly wasn't the chicken.


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## dmmj

I personally don't use the term newB but I see it all the time in newbies threads just saying


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## wellington

Personally I just don't see where newbies are getting so disrespected and bashed as so many are saying. Like I said before. We have a lot of members that join to post one time and then never post again. Not because anyone bashed them. But probably because for the moment their tortoise was important to them. We should wait to see if they ever come back on? Let's poo poo their terrible care, say nothing but good things about their cute tort, then when someone does try to correct things, the newb have and use all those people that poo poo'd their pics as back up that their stuff must be fine and the one trying to help the tortoise is off their rocker. 
Btw,,there is nothing wrong with the term Newb or Newbie we have ALL been one.
There is a nice way/tone it can be done in. However, to poo poo a pic or post that things are wrong in, is a disservice to the animal that if he/she could speak for itself, we wouldn't have too. I will always be a voice for any animal. After all, the Newbie does have the choice to read some threads before posting pics of everything wrong. Maybe they should do their work on the forum before thinking we need to coddle them.

Years ago I used to be a dog groomer. Doing a collie in terrible condition. The owner kept calling and wondering why we were taking so long. We explained how matted the dog was. She argued that it was not that bad, she brushed him everyday.
When she picked up the dog. I let her know that just brushing the top coat did nothing. I let her know exactly how bad that dog was and that it had a baseball sized tumor at the base of its tail. I was as nice I as could be but was not going to poo poo anything. She had no idea about the tumor and later that day, she called us back and thanked us for doing such a good job and finding the tumor. Btw, if she had actually brushed the dog like she said, heck, even pet the dog,she couldn't have missed the tumor. I will.never forget that day, many many years ago and one of the reasons I will always stand on the animals side and be their voice, ALWAYS. Doing it as nice as possible, but do it at the first chance.


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## Tom

ascott said:


> I remember the moment you turned into an Ahole with regards to me....there was a thread started about their Russian not opening its eyes and was lethargic and the person was going over their enclosure set up...and in that descriptive they said that they let the night temp drop into the 70s as instructed by you (because Russians like a night temp drop--this is indeed a true statement. if said tort is not a baby and is not in a closed chamber with constant high humidity) they were keeping the humidity up near 70%, even with the low night temps....I said to them that if their tortoise (baby tort) was going to be kept in the closed enclosure high humidity method (no mention of you by me, and on top of that a method in which you did not even invent to begin with, so again, no direct attack on you) then they may want to keep the night temps from getting cold with the high humidity and would want to bump the temps to no less than 80 including night time to assure that the tort did not get chilled because Russians do not do well in cool wet environment....I also shared that not all species nor all ages should be housed in a wet, closed, hot box....I also said that there are other factors that are as important to the over all health of the tort outside of high humidity....that was it.... *you* came on and blasted me and told me that I overstepped some boundary by being in a part of the forum for a species I don't keep, also according to you because I did not RAISE hundreds of Sulcata, Leopards, Russians like you do...really? You asserted that you are right and I am wrong, to which I said whatever and clearly let you know then, as I am now...your feelings and opinions of me are of no concern...none.



I don't dislike you, in spite of your direct insults. Your entire post is proving MY point and your reaction to being rightfully discredited is typical of how many discredited false "experts" react. You just said you don't keep sulcatas or russians. So why are you advising on how to care for them? You have never kept a russian in humid conditions with warm nights. You have never kept a russian in humid conditions with cold nights. You have never kept any russian at all, so how could you possibly know what any sort of care routine would do to the tortoise one way or the other. Further you malign and misrepresent how I and others keep them, when you don't have any idea what results will come from any care routine at all. This is all I am saying now, and all I have ever said. You are offering specific advice on topics that you have no experience with, and absolutely no knowledge of, and you are doing it in direct opposition to people who DO have direct experience with the species and care routines being discussed. You shouldn't be doing this. No one should. Me included. I would expect to be called out by any of our RF keepers if I started dispensing specific advice about temps, care routines and humidity for RFs. Unlike you dispensing advice about sulcatas, leopards and russians, I have actually housed a few RFs and so have some of my tortoise keeping friends. I actually have a little bit of experience to draw from there, but not enough in my own opinion. You on the other hand have NO russian, leopard or sulcata experience to draw from. If Aldabraman publicly corrected me for dispensing Aldabra advice that I had dreamed up that was contrary to his extensive first hand experience with the species, I would not react the way you have. Quite the opposite.

You have swerved way out of your lane, and now your are fuming mad at the person who is honking at you for doing so. You are the person in traffic who cuts someone off and then gives _them_ the finger for your own transgression. Just stop. Please stop being mad and stop giving incorrect, baseless advice on species that you know nothing about.


----------



## Tom

ascott said:


> "Opponent" , you see here, again you appear to believe we are in some type of battle??? I am not on this Forum to battle anyone, however I never have nor will I ever turn away from someone trying to do me dirty...which you clearly are. This is entirely on you...but do not expect me to slink away, that won't happen. Toe to toe baby, all day.



Yes "opponent". Two people arguing opposite sides of an issue are by definition "opponents". Its not an insult or an attack in any way.

No one is trying to "do you dirty". Certainly not me. I am simply, calmly and repeatedly pointing out that you do not have any housing experience with some of the species that you are advising people on how to house. Nothing more, nothing less. I am sorry that you don't like this inconsistency pointed out and exposed, but it needs to be done since the baseless advice you are offering could be harmful to the tortoises in question. Keeping a russian tortoise at 80+ degrees 24/7 because it is on damp substrate with moderate humidity is not good or beneficial to them. Allowing a night time drop in temperature in said scenario IS good for them. Ask me how I know this. C'mon. Go ahead. Ask me. I'll give you a well thought out, reasonable, experience based answer. What will happen if I ask you how you know? More insults and bluster headed my way?

Your second sentence in this paragraph is in direct opposition to your last, BTW...


----------



## Tom

wellington said:


> Personally I just don't see where newbies are getting so disrespected and bashed as so many are saying.



Me neither. I've seen some noobs get upset and lash out at the people they asked for help and then argued with though. Its an understandable response, so I don't hold it against them, but rare is the case where I see our members here being unkind or disrespectful to a new person. Quite the opposite really. I can only remember one instance where I thought some people were going a little over board, but once it was pointed out, apologies were dispensed and the tone of the thread changed back to being completely helpful.


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## leigti

When I say that if I see something dangerous I will definitely say something, and with less regard for the owner's feelings than the welfare of the animal that is exactly what I mean. It doesn't mean I will be nasty and rude and I have no respect for that person. I know exactly how it feels to think that you are doing something right and find out you're not. It's not a good feeling. But if people are afraid to say anything in the fear of hurting someone's feelings then the animal still loses. If you post on an open forum you are opening yourself up to comments and possible criticism. But I think people here try to make it constructive criticism and coming from their own experience.
Maybe part of the problem is just the way the forum is set up. People react instantly instead of thinking about things for a while. And sometimes people want instant one size fit all answers to a situation that just doesn't work that way. Taking proper care of any animal is a learning curve and people must be willing to travel along that curve.


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## Tom

leigti said:


> When I say that if I see something dangerous I will definitely say something, and with less regard for the owner's feelings than the welfare of the animal that is exactly what I mean. It doesn't mean I will be nasty and rude and I have no respect for that person. I know exactly how it feels to think that you are doing something right and find out you're not. It's not a good feeling. But if people are afraid to say anything in the fear of hurting someone's feelings then the animal still loses. If you post on an open forum you are opening yourself up to comments and possible criticism. But I think people here try to make it constructive criticism and coming from their own experience.
> Maybe part of the problem is just the way the forum is set up. People react instantly instead of thinking about things for a while. And sometimes people want instant one size fit all answers to a situation that just doesn't work that way. Taking proper care of any animal is a learning curve and people must be willing to travel along that curve.




Well said. Maybe I am just over-thinking this. At times I am a bit of a social moron, so in the interest of not wanting to run people off, or get nasty backlash comments, I might be thinking too hard about this. Of all the hundreds of people I've attempted to help over the years, very few were upset by my tactics. Most have been openly thankful. Perhaps some people are just over sensitive and will be "rubbed-the-wrong-way" no matter how things are worded or presented. We have had a few of those type of people over the years too.

Hmmm… Food for thought.


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## Alaskamike

Tom said:


> I am guilty of this one on many occasions, but it is in no way a defensive mechanism. It has nothing to do with ego or me feeling threatened or disrespected in any way. I do it to point out to the person arguing with me, and anyone reading, that they don't have a leg to stand on. A very good example of this is our own Ascott. Love her. Think she's great, even if she is proud to constantly point out that I'm on her ignore list. In the past couple of years, she keeps jumping on to threads about how best to raise baby sulcatas or russians and she makes all sorts of well worded, informative sounding assertions about what is best for these species. We don't argue anymore because she has me on ignore, but when we did argue, I did ask her how many baby sulcatas she had raised. How many russian tortoises was she caring for in the manner she was prescribing. I wanted her and everyone reading to know that the answer to both questions was ZERO. Here you have someone with zero experience with the subject matter, zero experience with babies of any species, arguing with someone who lives with those species daily and has literally raised hundreds. My assertions were/are based on the hundreds of babies I have raised the way I'm saying to raise them. I know what works and what doesn't because I have done it many ways hundreds of times. My opponent in the argument knows what? Her guesses? Her feelings on the matter? Isn't it reasonable and pertinent to point out to the people reading that the person telling them how to best to care for their baby or their russian tortoise has NEVER even done what they are telling others to do?
> 
> Lets use a different, hypothetical example. Suppose Steve had come on to the forum and said that "Tom's methods are all wrong and baby sulcatas should never be raised that way…" Of course he did nothing of the sort. (Sorry Steve you were just fresh in my mind…) Wouldn't it be reasonable to ask what he based that upon? Wouldn't it be reasonable to ask how he knows what he is asserting? How many babies has he raised "Tom's way" to know that there is something wrong with the method? What way is he using that he has lots of experience with that works better?
> 
> I don't know Mike… Seems like if someone is going to make an authoritative suggestion on how a given tortoise of a given age should be housed, they ought to be able to easily back up the assertion with some explanation of their experience. Seems like experience level ought to be a relevant factor in a discussion of differing husbandry techniques. Someone with no experience arguing with me about how best to raise sulcata or leopard tortoises would be like me arguing with Aldabraman about how best to raise Aldabras. I would expect Aldabraman, when confronted with me telling people to do the opposite of what he knows is best to ask me, "Hey Tom. Exactly how many Aldabra babies have you hatched and raised in the manner you are telling people to use here?" Of course my answer would be "zero" and those reading would be able to make a more informed decision about how to care for their Aldabra baby. This doesn't mean I am stupid or that I don't have something to offer here. It just means I don't know jack about raising Aldabras, because I have never done it. I would not find Aldabraman's question to be insulting, a personal attack, confrontational or degrading in any way. When I ask this question it is to either demonstrate that the arguer has no idea what they are talking about, like in Ascott's case, or to learn what they have to offer from their first hand experience like in Steve's case with his one leopard and 6 months of success.
> 
> The problem I have with "just showing" mine is that an intelligent person like Ascott can make a compelling, convincing argument, while never having to show her own results, because there are none. I could convince people how I think Aldabras should be raised, couldn't I? Aldabraman could post all the pics he wanted, but some percentage of people would still be swayed by my baseless words and arguments, wouldn't they? This is what I wish to prevent with this line of questioning.
> 
> Thoughts?


Tom , in response to your reply which was very well thought out and certainly a good explanation - I would say that only those of us making a post know what our true motivation is and I take you at face value . 

I think that backing up our assertions in the way that you describe is certainly appropriate and needed in certain situations. My only caution was to weight the situation carefully and see if that's the proper response. 

All of us of have been in situations of disagreement with someone who has no background for the assertions that they're making and feel very free & justified in opposing the ideas of someone with great education research and experience ; it is frustrating. 

My question was more for new people or responses to new people who are resistive to information based on what they've read somewhere else on the Internet or their experience with a handful of tortoises . I think it's there that we need to show restraint and caution. Certainly share best care practices as we know it , but allow for information to sink in 

There is no doubt that if they stay around long enough ( and it won't take very long ) they will very quickly find out on their own who the experienced members are and what the depth of that experience is. 

I found myself in the noob situation when I first started reading many threads , and I don't know if you recall or not , but I was rather surprised at that time , at the number of posts regarding Pyramiding and how often this was stated and repeated on new people's introductions. Times that really offended me the most was a singular post or response that said "I see pyramiding" with no explanation no mitigation at all in their statement , often several " bandwagoners " in a row , it was very offensive to me ; not on my own tortoises , but when I would see new people post and it was being done rather rudely , I don't see that anymore

I have the utmost respect for your depth of knowledge and demonstrable results - you know that

Take This with the grain of salt and the grace in which I am trying to convey it. Sometimes it is better to let others Toot our horn than to toot our own horn - it has a greater impact. 

For no monetary gain , you ( and many others ) have spent a tremendous amount of time educating others. I appreciate and respect that. 

You certainly taught me a lot and I am grateful.


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## Tom

Alaskamike said:


> Tom , in response to your reply which was very well thought out and certainly a good explanation - I would say that only those of us making a post know what our true motivation is and I take you at face value .
> 
> I think that backing up our assertions in the way that you describe is certainly appropriate and needed in certain situations. My only caution was to weight the situation carefully and see if that's the proper response.
> 
> All of us of have been in situations of disagreement with someone who has no background for the assertions that they're making and feel very free & justified in opposing the ideas of someone with great education research and experience ; it is frustrating.
> 
> My question was more for new people or responses to new people who are resistive to information based on what they've read somewhere else on the Internet or their experience with a handful of tortoises . I think it's there that we need to show restraint and caution. Certainly share best care practices as we know it , but allow for information to sink in
> 
> There is no doubt that if they stay around long enough ( and it won't take very long ) they will very quickly find out on their own who the experienced members are and what the depth of that experience is.
> 
> I found myself in the noob situation when I first started reading many threads , and I don't know if you recall or not , but I was rather surprised at that time , at the number of posts regarding Pyramiding and how often this was stated and repeated on new people's introductions. Times that really offended me the most was a singular post or response that said "I see pyramiding" with no explanation no mitigation at all in their statement , often several " bandwagoners " in a row , it was very offensive to me ; not on my own tortoises , but when I would see new people post and it was being done rather rudely , I don't see that anymore
> 
> I have the utmost respect for your depth of knowledge and demonstrable results - you know that
> 
> Take This with the grain of salt and the grace in which I am trying to convey it. Sometimes it is better to let others Toot our horn than to toot our own horn - it has a greater impact.
> 
> For no monetary gain , you ( and many others ) have spent a tremendous amount of time educating others. I appreciate and respect that.
> 
> You certainly taught me a lot and I am grateful.



I will consider all this and let wisdom of your words sink in...


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## Careym13

I think some people are going to be offended no matter how a response is worded. Everyone here has different personalities and as a result, responses to controversial photos are going vary. We live in a world where nearly everything has become offensive to somebody in one way or another. This thread has generated some great discussion but I think I'm just going to keep on being myself...I hope no one is offended by that


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## ascott

Tom said:


> I don't dislike you[/B][/U][/I], in spite of your direct insults. Your entire post is proving MY point and your reaction to *being rightfully discredited* is typical of how many discredited false *"experts*" react. *You just said you don't keep sulcatas or russians*. So why are you advising on how to care for them?* You have never kept a russian in humid conditions with warm nights. You have never kept a russian in humid conditions with cold nights*. You have never kept any russian at all, so how could you possibly know what any sort of care routine would do to the tortoise one way or the other. Further you malign and misrepresent how I and others keep them, when you don't have any idea what results will come from any care routine at all. This is all I am saying now, and all I have ever said. You are offering specific advice on topics that you have no experience with, and absolutely no knowledge of, and you are doing it in direct opposition to people who DO have direct experience with the species and care routines being discussed. You shouldn't be doing this. No one should. Me included. I would expect to be called out by any of our RF keepers if I started dispensing specific advice about temps, care routines and humidity for RFs. Unlike you dispensing advice about sulcatas, leopards and russians, I have actually housed a few RFs and so have some of my tortoise keeping friends. I actually have a little bit of experience to draw from there, but not enough in my own opinion. You on the other hand have NO russian, leopard or sulcata experience to draw from. If Aldabraman publicly corrected me for dispensing Aldabra advice that I had dreamed up that was contrary to his extensive first hand experience with the species, I would not react the way you have. Quite the opposite.
> 
> You have swerved way out of your lane, and now your are fuming mad at the person who is honking at you for doing so. You are the person in traffic who cuts someone off and then gives _them_ the finger for your own transgression. Just stop. Please stop being mad and stop giving incorrect, baseless advice on species that you know nothing about.




Wow, I was kind of hoping for more insight from you in response, but nope, same old rhetoric, rather sad. But onward, at your request.

_*"I don't dislike you",*_ kind of like saying this won't hurt, right before someone tries to do something painful to you---just not true, and outright lie.
*"experts",* here is your fav word, a word that you seem to need to apply to yourself, to cover yourself in, to cloak yourself in, to pour all over the place as though there is such a thing...I mean, that is a subjective word, one you love to subject the rest of us to by trying to label yourself as...next. You are by no means an expert...there is no one on this forum that is an expert...there are a lot of folks here who have valuable information to share as a collective group..oh I don't know, perhaps a Forum??
_*"You just said you don't keep sulcatas or Russians"*_ , hey don't forget that I also said Leopards...I also have not housed a grip of other tortoise species...but I am sure that will also be held against me by you at some convenient tantrum riddled moment...woo hoo, I can not wait. Again, I have NEVER said that I have, I have NEVER said that I have..so the point is mute, I sure love that word---one that comes to mind on my wish list when thinking of some folks..
*"You have never kept a Russian in humid conditions with warm nights. You have never kept a Russian in humid conditions with cold nights.",,* I would not subject this species of tortoise to *either, * unnatural, unhealthy environment in a forced captive space in a closed chamber...what you fail to mention Tom, is that the care for this species of tort is not that far off from the care of a Ca Desert Tortoise, and while I have also heard you spew the same information for Russians and Desert Tortoise, it is not the correct care to provide...you instruct people to run the Hot Wet Closed chambers for Sulcata, Leopard and outline keeping temps up for night..but for these two species you say to people to let the temps drop at night for the Russian and I have read you say the same nonsense for Ca Desert Tort, you are crazy in telling someone this, especially a person new to tortoise especially when you should know that neither of these two species does well in cold wet dirt--you know it--see what you fail to realize, with that big head and ego of yours, is that new care givers have not yet developed that inner voice that tells them promptly when something is going wrong...a slight look in the eye of the tort, the slight difference in weight, the routine that is changing ever so slight...all of the things that come with time that some of us can tune into that have been caring for tortoise ...THIS is where we are responsible with every word we share with someone Tom...and although I do not have Sulcata, Leopard, Russian torts, I do know what is good for a tort to be healthy and that is where my words come from...nothing I need to get approval on from you...again, you know nothing about me Tom. Do you notice that these are the two species of tort that I fight you the most on....I will continue to do so until you come up with a better way to share with folks that these two species are highly susceptible to illness when the ground they rest on and the air they breath is cooled when wet, or the word you now like to use instead, damp....until that happens, we will do this over and over again...you simply are to flippant when it comes to this and it is reckless. There are too many variables in life, a closed, wet , warm chamber can quickly become a closed wet cold place of illness ----so allowing a tort some micro climates is a better, safer way, more natural way--IN MY OPINION--than not. So Tom, you will need to just resolve that you and I will continue this in the future when we approach a differing view...while tiring, it is necessary, in my humble opinion.

I jump all around this forum, I do so based on what a title says and I pop in based on the concern first and not species...if there is an issue that is out of my comfort zone or I know I can not be helpful on, I will invite another forum member on that will be able to offer some insight...no problem with that. I also will sometimes see someone freaking out on a thread and it may be late at night and I am up and see that what they are freaking out about can be easily resolved with a tweak or two...or they are freaking out because they think that their attempts are futile when actually they are in the game and just don't know it..so I can pop in with the knowledge I have with this awesome creature the tortoise and offer up what I would do given their situation...this Tom, does not require a person to house every tortoise species in the world before they can offer some basic tortoise information--which some caregivers do not yet even poses..

You brought up @ALDABRAMAN a couple of times for some reason??...I do not house Aldabras, don't have the weather, the space, the time, the money to do so...but I do believe that Greg would not jump on this forum and scold me/ attempt to reprimand me if a person came on this forum at 1 am, as a new Aldabra keeper with no experience and was freaking out because they have a baby that is on aspen bedding, in a cardboard box in their closet no light for warmth no uv, no access to water--because the pet store told him this is okay...feeding green beans and dog food and why won't it move, it won't eat and it seems to have a cold with snot running out of its nose....can someone help me...so by your theory Tom, I am not suppose to share with this person on the basic needs to a tortoise, warmth, lighting, diet, proper enclosure, which I do know because of my personal knowledge as a whole with tortoise/reptiles simply because I do not house an Aldabra?? (disclaimer, Greg--I tagged you in only because I referenced you and not for you to get into the cloud of dust here, that would never be my intention )

So Tom, let me end (good grief let me end) by saying this, bye.


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## Yvonne G

That's all folks! Both of you are the main complainers when a moderator "fluffs" or deletes posts. These last couple of posts by you both show why we feel the need to occasionally delete posts. You are each just going back and forth to each other and not really adding anything constructive to the thread. No one wants to read your bickering. So, if you don't want me to start deleting your posts, cool it.


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## Tom

Yvonne G said:


> That's all folks! Both of you are the main complainers when a moderator "fluffs" or deletes posts. These last couple of posts by you both show why we feel the need to occasionally delete posts. You are each just going back and forth to each other and not really adding anything constructive to the thread. No one wants to read your bickering. So, if you don't want me to start deleting your posts, cool it.



So she's going to publicly level a bunch of false accusations at me, and if I take the time to refute them you or some other mod is going to delete it? Why? This is my thread. Its in the debatable section. Forum rules are being adhered to by all parties. Debate like this is not a bad thing. It allows the readers to see where people are coming from.

Ascott has never kept russians or DTs the way I have and yet she says things like "you are crazy in telling someone this, especially a person new to tortoise especially when you should know that neither of these two species does well in cold wet dirt--you know it--". Actually I DO know the opposite because I've done it dozens of times. She makes OBVIOUSLY false statements like this, and I have dozens of healthy babies raised this way to prove it, while she has no proof whatsoever to back up her false claims, yet you, Yvonne, want me to let these falsehoods stand unchallenged? She continually falsely represents my style of keeping, and I can't explain otherwise?

I don't see any reason for any mod to be stepping in here. We are having a debate in the debatable section. A warning for her name calling or abbreviated cuss words might be appropriate, but other than that, can we continue our discussion without fear of our time being wasted with your delete key?


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## wellington

Tom said:


> So she's going to publicly level a bunch of false accusations at me, and if I take the time to refute them you or some other mod is going to delete it? Why? This is my thread. Its in the debatable section. Forum rules are being adhered to by all parties. Debate like this is not a bad thing. It allows the readers to see where people are coming from.
> 
> Ascott has never kept russians or DTs the way I have and yet she says things like "you are crazy in telling someone this, especially a person new to tortoise especially when you should know that neither of these two species does well in cold wet dirt--you know it--". Actually I DO know the opposite because I've done it dozens of times. She makes OBVIOUSLY false statements like this, and I have dozens of healthy babies raised this way to prove it, while she has no proof whatsoever to back up her false claims, yet you, Yvonne, want me to let these falsehoods stand unchallenged? She continually falsely represents my style of keeping, and I can't explain otherwise?
> 
> I don't see any reason for any mod to be stepping in here. We are having a debate in the debatable section. A warning for her name calling or abbreviated cuss words might be appropriate, but other than that, can we continue our discussion without fear of our time being wasted with your delete key?



My personal opinion on this is debate on the points you need to and the tort care you need to, but leave names out, anyone reading this knows who the discussion is about, throwing each other's name under the bus is not needed.


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## DandR

Yvonne G said:


> That's all folks! Both of you are the main complainers when a moderator "fluffs" or deletes posts. These last couple of posts by you both show why we feel the need to occasionally delete posts. You are each just going back and forth to each other and not really adding anything constructive to the thread. No one wants to read your bickering. So, if you don't want me to start deleting your posts, cool it.



Hello - Please don't delete this thread. I'm new and for the past 6 weeks have been scouring this site in a crash course in tortoise keeping. I haven't introduced myself yet because I wanted to get everything "right" to avoid being scolded. I'm not a shrinking violent who takes offense at the slightest criticism and, in the best interest of the animal, would hope to be scrutizined and guided toward best practices. Yet there seem to be some moments when enthusiasts cross the line and become overzealous....that is scary to a newb. So is seeing the same reprimand repeated in 3 or 4 consecutive posts in a thread.

Just FYI, I started on this forum by reading the Care Sheets of the type of tortoise I've been handed. I didn't know who the "main players" were until about 2 weeks after poring through the care section. This thread is giving me another type of education altogether. Please let it remain.


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## wellington

DandR said:


> Hello - Please don't delete this thread. I'm new and for the past 6 weeks have been scouring this site in a crash course in tortoise keeping. I haven't introduced myself yet because I wanted to get everything "right" to avoid being scolded. I'm not a shrinking violent who takes offense at the slightest criticism and, in the best interest of the animal, would hope to be scrutizined and guided toward best practices. Yet there seem to be some moments when enthusiasts cross the line and become overzealous....that is scary to a newb. So is seeing the same reprimand repeated in 3 or 4 consecutive posts in a thread.
> 
> Just FYI, I started on this forum by reading the Care Sheets of the type of tortoise I've been handed. I didn't know who the "main players" were until about 2 weeks after poring through the care section. This thread is giving me another type of education altogether. Please let it remain.



The thread would not be deleted just the offending post, so no worries there. Also no worries on being scolded either. We all, well at least most, have been there, doing wrong, not because we didn't try to get things right, but because we were told wrong by people or places we thought would know better.
Most if not all of us try to be helpful without sounding scolding or offending, sometimes typed words just comes off wrong.


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## DandR

wellington said:


> Most if not all of us try to be helpful without sounding scolding or offending, sometimes typed words just comes off wrong.



Thanks. EVERYTHING I know about keeping a tortoise, I've learned here. And I still have a lot to learn. No doubt this forum has the most comprehensive and updated information. I'm following the care sheets to a T and can see my torts, who came from sad & deplorable conditions, are improving. However there are 2 things that I'm not yet able to fix or make ready before posting pics. So others will definitely be concerned and have comments. I'd like to save everyone the time and have it as "qualified" as possible before posting. 

I work in IT and understand that what's being said much more important than how it's being said.


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## Yvonne G

DandR said:


> Hello - Please don't delete this thread. I'm new and for the past 6 weeks have been scouring this site in a crash course in tortoise keeping. I haven't introduced myself yet because I wanted to get everything "right" to avoid being scolded. I'm not a shrinking violent who takes offense at the slightest criticism and, in the best interest of the animal, would hope to be scrutizined and guided toward best practices. Yet there seem to be some moments when enthusiasts cross the line and become overzealous....that is scary to a newb. So is seeing the same reprimand repeated in 3 or 4 consecutive posts in a thread.
> 
> Just FYI, I started on this forum by reading the Care Sheets of the type of tortoise I've been handed. I didn't know who the "main players" were until about 2 weeks after poring through the care section. This thread is giving me another type of education altogether. Please let it remain.



I wasn't threatening to delete the THREAD, I was telling the two people to stop picking at each other or their POSTS would be deleted.


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## Nephelle

DandR said:


> Thanks. EVERYTHING I know about keeping a tortoise, I've learned here. And I still have a lot to learn. No doubt this forum has the most comprehensive and updated information. I'm following the care sheets to a T and can see my torts, who came from sad & deplorable conditions, are improving. However there are 2 things that I'm not yet able to fix or make ready before posting pics. So others will definitely be concerned and have comments. I'd like to save everyone the time and have it as "qualified" as possible before posting.
> 
> I work in IT and understand that what's being said much more important than how it's being said.



Hi DandR 

I am brand new, too--and I completely understand where you are coming from about not wanting to post until you have it "right".

That said, I ran into a pretty serious issue because I didn't understand the caresheets fully, and what I thought was right--wasn't. One day everything seemed great, and the next it wasn't--it was that fast. If I could go back and do it over, I would have posted my enclosure pics far sooner, and saved myself the agony of a sleepless night wondering if I'd made my tortoise sick from my lack of experience.

So, as a fellow new owner, I would highly suggest going ahead and posting your pics for feedback  You know where you want to make improvements, and you might get some tips and suggestions that might save you a good deal of money. Always a good thing! 

Best of luck


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## DandR

In response to the original question of "What to do about pics of inappropriate tortoise practices", I appreciate people pointing out the wrongs. Yet, the reason for WHY it's wrong should also be included. Without the "why" makes it seem like only an opinion and that may put some new people off, especially if they simply wanted to share their "new tort bliss". 

Most people do provide the reasons, as well as first hand experience, about why something is wrong. That is valuable information that can be absorbed. However, I've also seen a few one-sentence posts along the lines of "That's the wrong type of [whatever]", without any further explanation. This forum is fortunate to have many who will followup and elaborate on that one-sentence. But again, speaking as a newb, those one-sentence responses can be scary. 

So YES please say something about inappropriate practices and include the reasons why. (Although all the information everyone needs to start off with is in the Care Sheets, not everyone has the luxury of time, especially in urgent cases, to read them. And, then there are always those who won't read them no matter what). You all do a great job and your passion for these animals is very evident.


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## Cowboy_Ken

DandR said:


> DandR, you do a great job and your passion for these animals is very evident.


 Personally, I can't wait to watch you continue to grow, thrive and share your tortoise knowledge with the masses. Keep up the good work.


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## ascott

Yvonne G said:


> That's all folks! Both of you are the main complainers when a moderator "fluffs" or deletes posts. These last couple of posts by you both show why we feel the need to occasionally delete posts. You are each just going back and forth to each other and not really adding anything constructive to the thread. No one wants to read your bickering. So, if you don't want me to start deleting your posts, cool it.



Out of personal respect for you Yvonne, Yes ma'am, I will zip it as instructed...


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## newCH

Interesting thread, have to say I have had several issues.

One, it is a forum and everyone is an expert on their own opinion.
The internet involves everyone in the whole world, so therefore
you get comments that range from the good, the bad & the ugly.

Two, its not like we truly know each other. People we deal with in person in everyday life, we know. People on the internet are not necessarily genuine. 

I plan on doing less commenting. I will try my best raising Sheldon & if I run into issues I will Google it to see what forum posts show up.
If someone feels like making jerky comments, my tort looks pyramiding, etc. I dont care anymore.


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## Cowboy_Ken

newCH said:


> I plan on doing less commenting. I will try my best raising Sheldon & if I run into issues I will Google it to see what forum posts show up.
> I dont care anymore.


 Come on. Don't do that. We all, whether we openly say it or not, need new, fresh minds to help keep us growing and trying new things we come up with that seem good on paper but still need to be tried. It's the relatively new as well as the new members that help keep us thriving and alive. Please keep us in mind. And the tortoises will all thank you as well.


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## leigti

newCH said:


> Interesting thread, have to say I have had several issues.
> 
> One, it is a forum and everyone is an expert on their own opinion.
> The internet involves everyone in the whole world, so therefore
> you get comments that range from the good, the bad & the ugly.
> 
> Two, its not like we truly know each other. People we deal with in person in everyday life, we know. People on the internet are not necessarily genuine.
> 
> I plan on doing less commenting. I will try my best raising Sheldon & if I run into issues I will Google it to see what forum posts show up.
> If someone feels like making jerky comments, my tort looks pyramiding, etc. I dont care anymore.


It sounds like your issues have more to do with the Internet and forums in general rather than this particular forum. You don't have to comment. But if you have a question you should feel free to ask it. Or search here on the forum. You probably know by now that there is a lot of bad information out there. This forum has great information on it so use it for what it is. Source of information. You say you don't care anymore. What don't you care about? Taking care of your tortoise or participating here on the forum?


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## christinaland128

My only word of advice as a Early Childhood Educator is that people from the smallest to the oldest respond to politeness. Offer a positive comment, a negative (constructive criticism) and another positive. Works wonders! 

Some people remain stubborn, or become brutally offended. Well, they end up learning through mistakes. Nothing you can do about that.


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## wellington

newCH said:


> Interesting thread, have to say I have had several issues.
> 
> One, it is a forum and everyone is an expert on their own opinion.
> The internet involves everyone in the whole world, so therefore
> you get comments that range from the good, the bad & the ugly.
> 
> Two, its not like we truly know each other. People we deal with in person in everyday life, we know. People on the internet are not necessarily genuine.
> 
> I plan on doing less commenting. I will try my best raising Sheldon & if I run into issues I will Google it to see what forum posts show up.
> If someone feels like making jerky comments, my tort looks pyramiding, etc. I dont care anymore.



I dont know why you feel the need to not post here much and or why you would want to google for info. There is so much out there that is bad. As for our members not being genuine. I think your wrong here too. Animal people in general are very genuine and care about your tort/animal almost as much as their own. When people post about pyramiding, it's usually to help you and believe it or not, many don't know that tortoises are not suppose to be bumpy. Many of us have pyramided tortoises, bad Google info is the reason for some of us. A search of Google will show a lot of pyramided tortoises and most of the care advice out there will help you achieve a pyramided tortoises. I do hope you will do your tort good by at least search for,the correct info on this forum. If you don't want to post, that's sad, but you can sure still read as much info from this forum as needed.


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## Cowboy_Ken

leigti said:


> You say you don't care anymore. What don't you care about? Taking care of your tortoise or participating here on the forum?


Most excellent questions. I'm wishing I'd come up with them. Wait, this being the "World-Wide Internet Machine" I can claim active responsibility for these and just mention that you posted a private conversation between you and I. No one really knows me, so who would be the wiser. 







Fine. Kidding here. LOL (no one really knows me, priceless!)


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## Nephelle

newCH said:


> Interesting thread, have to say I have had several issues.
> 
> One, it is a forum and everyone is an expert on their own opinion.
> The internet involves everyone in the whole world, so therefore
> you get comments that range from the good, the bad & the ugly.
> 
> Two, its not like we truly know each other. People we deal with in person in everyday life, we know. People on the internet are not necessarily genuine.
> 
> I plan on doing less commenting. I will try my best raising Sheldon & if I run into issues I will Google it to see what forum posts show up.
> If someone feels like making jerky comments, my tort looks pyramiding, etc. I dont care anymore.



There seems to be a theme running through this thread today. 

And he doesn't have pyramiding, he's faceted 

I have read through quite a few of your threads, CH...I think that's what we new parents tend to do here, eh?

@leigti , I think you give rockstar advice. I don't understand, however, why you would question her not wanting to care for her tortoise. That is sort of the point I have been trying to make in my posts here, and what is coming up again and again in new members today. Of course she wants to care for her tortoise. She stated clearly she is frustrated with the forums and her interactions here, and instead of that being addressed, her dedication to care was.

I don't think I will post any more on this topic, since I seem to just be going in circles. There is a severe disconnect between what is being stated again and again by new members and what is being heard. 

I will say, CH, that I disagree only on one point. I think people in online social networks such as these are actually more genuine than most you will meet in real life, simply because when you are using your brain and your fingers to do the talking, you lose a lot of the filters you have in face-to-face interaction. This is, honestly, probably the most genuinely dedicated group of people out there when it comes to tortoise husbandry. It might not always come at you like you were hoping, but the advice is awesome. But you know that already 

Best of luck to you and yours--hope to see you around


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## leigti

Nephelle said:


> There seems to be a theme running through this thread today.
> 
> And he doesn't have pyramiding, he's faceted
> 
> I have read through quite a few of your threads, CH...I think that's what we new parents tend to do here, eh?
> 
> @leigti , I think you give rockstar advice. I don't understand, however, why you would question her not wanting to care for her tortoise. That is sort of the point I have been trying to make in my posts here, and what is coming up again and again in new members today. Of course she wants to care for her tortoise. She stated clearly she is frustrated with the forums and her interactions here, and instead of that being addressed, her dedication to care was.
> 
> I don't think I will post any more on this topic, since I seem to just be going in circles. There is a severe disconnect between what is being stated again and again by new members and what is being heard.
> 
> I will say, CH, that I disagree only on one point. I think people in online social networks such as these are actually more genuine than most you will meet in real life, simply because when you are using your brain and your fingers to do the talking, you lose a lot of the filters you have in face-to-face interaction. This is, honestly, probably the most genuinely dedicated group of people out there when it comes to tortoise husbandry. It might not always come at you like you were hoping, but the advice is awesome. But you know that already
> 
> Best of luck to you and yours--hope to see you around


This person said they didn't care anymore. But they didn't make it clear what they actually cared about. That's why I asked the question. And I met the advice I gave, use the form to get the information you want. I don't give a rats butt if someone's tortoise is pyramided, and I would never give anybody a hard time about it. It is my personal belief that a little bit too much is made of that on this forum in general but that is a totally other topic. Like I posted before, it is a learning curve and I'm not sure that some of the newer people are willing to stay on the curve long enough to really understand different aspects of care. And some don't understand that they will continue to learn for as long as they have the animal.


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## wellington

I don't know. It seems the veteran members are getting the bad rap here to me. They do everything they can to help new members so they don't go through the pain of losing their tort and try to answer as much as possible so the member can get it right as soon as possible. They answer the same question over and over again, as not many will search before asking a question that was asked and answered hundreds of times. Yet, the veteran member will still take the time to answer it again. 
Some members don't have time to right a lengthy post, but they don't want your thread/question to sit there unanswered, so they will pop on, give a quick answer and then have to go about their busy days. I think most members, if not all, try to be as nice and friendly as they can. Some times a short answer is all they have time for. Personally, I would rather a short answer then leave me hanging. 
To all new members. If your feelings get hurt, remember this. 99% of the time a post by 99% of our members, wasn't meant to offend you or degrade you or your efforts. They do have concern for your tortoise and in helping you to make life better for your tort and easier for you. So, take a step back, take a deep breath and put your big girl/boy panties on and forge ahead to take the advice in the manner it was meant to be given in. That is to help you and your tortoise. After all, they could just fluff your efforts and let you go through the agony of failing which would also make your tortoise fail.


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## wellington

leigti said:


> This person said they didn't care anymore. But they didn't make it clear what they actually cared about. That's why I asked the question. And I met the advice I gave, use the form to get the information you want. I don't give a rats butt if someone's tortoise is pyramided, and I would never give anybody a hard time about it. It is my personal belief that a little bit too much is made of that on this forum in general but that is a totally other topic. Like I posted before, it is a learning curve and I'm not sure that some of the newer people are willing to stay on the curve long enough to really understand different aspects of care. And some don't understand that they will continue to learn for as long as they have the animal.



I agree, I had the same question in my head too.
However, I do disagree about the pyramiding being a bit much on this forum. After all, tortoise are not suppose to be pyramided. It's us humans that make them look that way. I personally would love to never see another hatchling grow pyramided. A big dream of mine. However, I too would not hound someone because they have a pyramided tortoise or hatchling. I would advise and move on. My leopards are pyramided and I love them just the same as my smooth Russian.


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## leigti

I realize that tortoises are pure amid because of poor care. But often the people with peer amid a Tauruses


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## Cowboy_Ken

leigti said:


> I realize that tortoises are pure amid because of poor care. But often the people with peer amid a Tauruses


Wait, that came out incorrectly.


----------



## leigti

Oh man, sorry about that It seems Siri does not understand the word pyramid. I realize it is caused by poor care but often people get their tortoises and they already have the issue. Or they just don't know any better. So I agree that it is a problem but I can understand why people start feeling defensive about it. It all comes back around to taking as good a care of your animal as you can. But people don't know what they don't know. And I'm glad I'm not the only one who didn't understand what the person was seen as far as what they don't care about anymore.


----------



## leigti

Sometimes the threads that get the most critical or informative responses have to do with people getting a new hatchling. They are hit with a lot of information very quickly. A new owner may not understand how fragile a hatchling can be and that it is important to get the environment right as quickly as possible.


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## Cowboy_Ken

My large, smooth, female sulcata that is fostered out right now was raised in Idaho of all places. I had money with me at the time earmarked for another prearranged, female pancake purchase. The folks with Makita,(sulcata) were nice folks moving but didn't want to take her. They were asking $500 for. I couldn't do that. All I had was $200 so I asked them if they'd do it. I stepped back to give them room to talk. They talked and the wife looked up at me and said yes. Other than my hatchling I got from Tom, this is the only time I've paid for a sulcata. I did it because she's beautiful and I wanted to insure she was with someone that understood that. Here is here picture and I hope you agree…

those are 8"x8" pieces of lumber.


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## DawnH

I haven't read all nine pages of comments but...

I have seen a few people taken over the coals a lot on TFO. It's a huge bummer for me. I get it when the same person has five different threads and they are just not getting it on all five threads (and are impervious to the advice given) but it breaks my heart when someone is obviously TRYING and they are treated like crap.

I've left the forum before because of this.

I get it. It's frustrating to repeat the same things over and over and over and over. Now that I know "more" (then I did two years ago) I find myself with that same frustration at times. I won't comment on the post though because I know that at that moment, I am a bit of a cranky pants and need to keep my mouth shut. Basic husbandry issues, no life and death stuff...

Kindness goes a long way. If I post a photo of Tuleo eating a bit of watermelon I don't want to hear from 10 people how he really shouldn't have that. I would ASSUME (key word) that given two years of posting everyone knows that it is treat. Not done often, therefor I want to share this cute picture with you.

There is not a set way to raise these torts. We taken in all the advice and tweak and mold for what works right for us. We do the best we can in our personal environment and there is nothing wrong with that. I love learning new things, and reading from those who think outside of the box. 

It's funny that I stumbled across this tonight... I took a photo of Tuleo in our kitchen sink tonight (posted in the Sulcata section) and I wanted to post it HERE, on this forum, among people who would "get it" (dirty dishes need to wait, soaking tortoise comes first.) I had a fleeting thought of "I wonder if anyone is gonna say anything negative about the fact that dishes are near him/he is in the kitchen sink/whatever."

That is kinda sad.


----------



## ascott

Cowboy_Ken said:


> My large, smooth, female sulcata that is fostered out right now was raised in Idaho of all places. I had money with me at the time earmarked for another prearranged, female pancake purchase. The folks with Makita,(sulcata) were nice folks moving but didn't want to take her. They were asking $500 for. I couldn't do that. All I had was $200 so I asked them if they'd do it. I stepped back to give them room to talk. They talked and the wife looked up at me and said yes. Other than my hatchling I got from Tom, this is the only time I've paid for a sulcata. I did it because she's beautiful and I wanted to insure she was with someone that understood that. Here is here picture and I hope you agree…
> View attachment 151898
> those are 8"x8" pieces of lumber.



Absolutely lovely tortoise...


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## dmmj

@Cowboy_Ken. that is a absolutely beautiful tortoise


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## Yvonne G

wellington said:


> I dont know why you feel the need to not post here much and or why you would want to google for info. There is so much out there that is bad. As for our members not being genuine. I think your wrong here too. Animal people in general are very genuine and care about your tort/animal almost as much as their own. When people post about pyramiding, it's usually to help you and believe it or not, many don't know that tortoises are not suppose to be bumpy. Many of us have pyramided tortoises, bad Google info is the reason for some of us. A search of Google will show a lot of pyramided tortoises and most of the care advice out there will help you achieve a pyramided tortoises. I do hope you will do your tort good by at least search for,the correct info on this forum. If you don't want to post, that's sad, but you can sure still read as much info from this forum as needed.



I have two very large Aldabra tortoises that are quite bumpy. I'm ashamed! I raised them from babies, but I didn't know about the humid/hot method of helping the tortoise to grow smoothly. So they were raised dry. I also have three 11 year old Yellowfooted tortoises that look like pine cones and they have bitten off each others' tails. I'm ashamed of that too. If I had it to do over again would I raise bumpy tortoises? I doubt it. Thank goodness for the info posted on this forum!


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## leigti

You did not have the information you needed to keep your tortoises from being bumpy. Now you do. And you follow it. Nothing wrong with that. The crime is if you have the information and you still don't use it. Basically just about all the information people need is here on this forum, it's their choice if they use it or not.


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## Cowboy_Ken

ascott & dmmj, thank you. But other than continued care I can't take credit for her growth. That said, I'm sure you see why I wanted her to the point of even paying money for her. Would have been broken hearted to see someone that showed up for a couple bearded dragons and no tortoise experience walking out with her.


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## Cowboy_Ken

leigti said:


> The crime is if you have the information and you still don't use it. Basically just about all the information people need is here on this forum, it's their choice if they use it or not.


 This is the precise reason I bought Little Ricky from Tom. I knew it could be done and I had to prove it. Tom, at the time was the only breeder I trusted to start them right. If you haven't seen him, here's Little Ricky,


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## reptimomAZ

I'm new and would hope for nothing but complete honesty from this type of forum. If I post something and you see room for improvement or some sort of red flag please please please tell me because I want my baby to live a long, healthy life! I think it is a good idea to point out concerns especially because not every thread is read. As long as it's done with respect and the tort's best interest it isn't a personal attack, right? Just a heads up since we all here because we all care


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## Kapidolo Farms

SteveW said:


> It's kind of like going out to dinner with a group that includes vegans, gluten-free, Paleo, etc, that want to lecture me about my beer and hamburger. If I'm in good health (I am) and my doctor's not worried about (he's not) then unsolicited advice is annoying and more than a little presumptuous.


Seems like a confusion of cultural choices with nutritional ones.


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## wellington

Yvonne G said:


> I have two very large Aldabra tortoises that are quite bumpy. I'm ashamed! I raised them from babies, but I didn't know about the humid/hot method of helping the tortoise to grow smoothly. So they were raised dry. I also have three 11 year old Yellowfooted tortoises that look like pine cones and they have bitten off each others' tails. I'm ashamed of that too. If I had it to do over again would I raise bumpy tortoises? I doubt it. Thank goodness for the info posted on this forum!



Same with my leopard Tatum. I did try to do the home work, unfortunately I listened to the wrong person. When I realized something seemed off, I finally found this forum, unfortunately, it was too late. I too would love a do over. If we had known though from the get go, we would have done it right. If I ever hatch out any leopards, I will at least be able to do it right with them.


----------



## wellington

Cowboy_Ken said:


> This is the precise reason I bought Little Ricky from Tom. I knew it could be done and I had to prove it. Tom, at the time was the only breeder I trusted to start them right. If you haven't seen him, here's Little Ricky,
> View attachment 151902



Beautiful guy you got there. 
That's what I want to do if I ever have any viable leopard eggs. I will start them all out the right way and keep at least one to continue growing smooth and depending on who (if non forum members)gets the others, all of the forum info will be going with them.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Have you ever driven up to a blind interesection, without a stop sign and stopped anyways? Have you ever driven up to an intersection where you could see oncoming traffic for many 10th's of miles, it was all clear, and you still stopped because the sign was there. 

Similar to blindly following stop signs when there is clearly no danger, and stopping when danger might be there, yet there is not a sign are both behavioral conservative actions.

I advocate conservative keeping, statistically it will be safer more successful keeping. 

What I believe I understand from the concern raised at the first post here are images that are incomplete pictures of the care. 

I posted a movie of the Aldabra tortoises at a friend's house and a giant doberman keeps walking back and forth. What's a teenager in there first few dozen miles of driving going to see as the take home message when I sorta roll through that stop sign at the intersection of road 125 and 157th Avenue in the valley of freshly plowed wheat fields( I can see 1/4 mile in every direction)?

The 1000 words in the picture are open to interpretation by the viewer. Each viewer will have some of those thousand words in common. Those words not in common can be problematic.

That doberman see tortoises as candy factories (feces) and is under close supervision, just for the purpose of keeping her on a diet with less candy.

I've posted images of pancakes with leopards, mixed species, yes. Likely disease transmission, no.
They all hatched in the same incubator, side by side. Genetic disease don't transmit that way.

But in both cases these extra unshared 1000 words send a conflicted message when I also write and or agree that dogs and tortoises don't mix, nor should you mix species.

What to do? 

Listen and learn, read and learn, suffer in silence when the reasonable advise, despite the apparent conflict in message(image and text), is ignored.

But then someone has a Bad tortoise experience, so who needs tortoises anyways, there just stupid animals. 

Images with disclaimers seem snarky or smirky to me, don't do this at home, I'm a professional, don't attempt this on an open road, driving in this commercial was done on a closed course by professional drivers. 

SOPs with oversight are how professionals do work it out. SOPs are really SSOPs "suggested standard operating procedures". There are always exceptions to standards, but they are done with oversight.

People come here to be policed as far as I can tell, might not be a best choice of a way to put it, but that's what they come for.


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## SteveW

Will said:


> Seems like a confusion of cultural choices with nutritional ones.



Indeed. Sometimes searching for the right analogy is like driving into a blind intersection with no stop sign.


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## Kapidolo Farms

SteveW said:


> Indeed. Sometimes searching for the right analogy is like driving into a blind intersection with no stop sign.


just like rocket surgery


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## AnimalLady

*pops out from under rock* things chill out here? I kid, i kid.

Well, I want to say...
I searched the internet for hours and days on how to properly care for a tort. my husband brought me a RT he found, i didn't know anything at all about him. I started googling, a day later, my poor tort died. I know if i would have soaked him in carrot, i probably could have helped more (i learned this HERE). SO, this is how my tort journey began. Fell in love with that tort, he died, i decided to read and read and learn and research before I got one. HERE is where i landed. I had so many questions and so many of you helped me. You told me how to choose a healthy tort and how to set him up.
I am very familiar with forums, no expert (heh) but I've been on many forums before. Before this tort journey I was a rabbit freak, i was apart of a rabbit forum... its the same thing everywhere! They wanted to see everyones set up to HELP. To let people know what was right and what was wrong. A lot of times it comes off like the people are just judging, but i personally learned in forum world, that's not the case. So when i came on here and showed you all a picture of my enclosure. sure i got some criticism, i thought it was only normal. My enclosure needs to be bigger, i need to secure it more, i needed a new water dish. All of these things were told to me, and i felt happy that people were responding! I didn't feel like i was being judged harshly. That doesnt mean i'm going to do exactly as they say, but i do take their recommendations into great consideration. I personally have received some responses that blow me away. paragraphs upon paragraphs of a response, that really makes me feel the person who is replying actually cares and wants to help.. i mean, who types up all of that if they didn't care and want to see the tort doing good? there are so many different people here from all over, and personalities are different, but that's the beauty in all of this! Plus, i wear my big girl panties, ALWAYS, so I'm good. No worries with my feelers getting hurt 

Its just hard to tell someone what they've been working on, obsessing over, is wrong, isn't good enough or needs to change. Its just the way it is. Not everyone will be happy and willing to learn, but for the ones who are (like myself) I find this forum super helpful, pretty damn entertaining, and freggin addicting! For example, the other day I was on a FB RT group and told someone their enclosure was too small for a Russian, heck for a tortoise all together. I tried to say it in the most polite way as possible "Oh! That looks great, but, I'm afraid an adult Russian needs more space than that, maybe you can add to it so the tort has more roaming room?" I got shut down. I was told i didn't know what I was talking about and that her tort was happy and she didn't need to dedicate her entire home to a tort like us "crazies" yea, she was a number lol. What did i do? I cracked up! She got butt hurt and i didn't mean it that way. My response to her was "Alllllrighhttttyyy then" The end! I take nothing to heart.

As for the information~ I don't always just take the information im given here and call it a day. I research, i try to find more information on the response. Then, i make an informed decision. I always wonder, but, why, who, where, when?! ALWAYS, my brain questions everything, it can be quite annoying..

anywho... that is all i wanted to say!


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## Kapidolo Farms

Cowboy_Ken said:


> This is the precise reason I bought Little Ricky from Tom. I knew it could be done and I had to prove it. Tom, at the time was the only breeder I trusted to start them right. If you haven't seen him, here's Little Ricky,
> View attachment 151902


I don't know Ken, that tortoise looks awfully domed and rounded. Those growth rings are very uniform and consistent. Maybe you should start feeding less hay and grasses.


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## Kapidolo Farms

leigti said:


> You did not have the information you needed to keep your tortoises from being bumpy. Now you do. And you follow it. Nothing wrong with that. The crime is if you have the information and you still don't use it. Basically just about all the information people need is here on this forum, it's their choice if they use it or not.


Knowing and still doing wrong is the definition of a f***tard, so say all my rebellious friends who find it important to know exactly what these slang terms mean. Apparently it is not a contraction of f*** and retard. I am so grammatically challenged.


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## LibbyCecil

I'm a "newbie" and this is all very intimidating.


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## wellington

LibbyCecil said:


> I'm a "newbie" and this is all very intimidating.



Why? What is intimidating? This thread or the forum in itself? And why on both accounts?


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## LibbyCecil

wellington said:


> Why? What is intimidating? This thread or the forum in itself? And why on both accounts?


 This thread specifically. I just felt anxiety reading it lol. 
I love the forum and I am so very happy to have found it, I believe my hachling is and will continue to thrive mainly because I have joined this forum.


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## Alaskamike

LibbyCecil said:


> This thread specifically. I just felt anxiety reading it lol.
> I love the forum and I am so very happy to have found it, I believe my hachling is and will continue to thrive mainly because I have joined this forum.


Divergent ideas , conflicts in perspective , confrontation and justification make many people anxious. But without the freedom to express ourselves and debate issues none of us can expand perspective and knowledge. 

Having a " debatable " thread area inproves us all. 

The. Great thing is , each person can decide for themselves where to participate and where not to - 

Good fortune with your hatchling.


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## SteveW

Tom said:


> So she's going to publicly level a bunch of false accusations at me, and if I take the time to refute them you or some other mod is going to delete it? Why? This is my thread. Its in the debatable section. Forum rules are being adhered to by all parties. Debate like this is not a bad thing. It allows the readers to see where people are coming from.
> 
> Ascott has never kept russians or DTs the way I have and yet she says things like "you are crazy in telling someone this, especially a person new to tortoise especially when you should know that neither of these two species does well in cold wet dirt--you know it--". Actually I DO know the opposite because I've done it dozens of times. She makes OBVIOUSLY false statements like this, and I have dozens of healthy babies raised this way to prove it, while she has no proof whatsoever to back up her false claims, yet you, Yvonne, want me to let these falsehoods stand unchallenged? She continually falsely represents my style of keeping, and I can't explain otherwise?
> 
> I don't see any reason for any mod to be stepping in here. We are having a debate in the debatable section. A warning for her name calling or abbreviated cuss words might be appropriate, but other than that, can we continue our discussion without fear of our time being wasted with your delete key?




So I missed this bit, apparently. Why (moderators) would these posts be deleted? Yes, there is disagreement but it is on the debatable section. What is more relevant to the sharing of knowledge than determining how someone came by that knowledge?
When I showed up with some (minor) differences of opinion, Wellington (a moderator, I gather) wasted no time in asking me. This was an appropriate response then and to this new member at least, appropriate now. 
I don't think it completely discounts someone's opinion if it based on other species, but it does pay to weigh accordingly. 
Someone, somewhere in this thread said there are no experts or something to that effect. That may or may not be true but I'd vote for firsthand experience being the nearest approximation.


----------



## Yvonne G

SteveW said:


> So I missed this bit, apparently. Why (moderators) would these posts be deleted? Yes, there is disagreement but it is on the debatable section. What is more relevant to the sharing of knowledge than determining how someone came by that knowledge?
> When I showed up with some (minor) differences of opinion, Wellington (a moderator, I gather) wasted no time in asking me. This was an appropriate response then and to this new member at least, appropriate now.
> I don't think it completely discounts someone's opinion if it based on other species, but it does pay to weigh accordingly.
> Someone, somewhere in this thread said there are no experts or something to that effect. That may or may not be true but I'd vote for firsthand experience being the nearest approximation.



Because they were sniping back and forth at each other and not adding anything constructive to the thread.


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## Alaskamike

Yvonne G said:


> Because they were sniping back and forth at each other and not adding anything constructive to the thread.


Dear Yvonne , To me " sniping " is more like ... 
" you're a poopy head " 
" no you are!" 
"Am not !"
"are so !" 
" well you're just dumb " 
" but rocks know more than you do !" 
Etc. 

If a member gets their dander up and digresses to ad hominem attack - well okay. Knock it off. 

But. 
Challenging someone on their ideas , opinion , experience, attitude - especially with detailed explanation ( which is what I see ) is not sniping. It's explaining and justifying. 

The readers of the posts are free to agree or disagree , read or not read , and make up their own minds. To me this is not off topic at all. 

We have been discussing comments , suggestions, and assumptions from posted pictures. Including requests for advice, or when advice is not asked for but given anyway. 

I'm learning. I think others are too. " constructive" is a matter of opinion. And my opinion is debate with extensive explanation is healthy.


----------



## Turtlepete

Alaskamike said:


> But.
> Challenging someone on their ideas , opinion , experience, attitude - especially with detailed explanation ( which is what I see ) is not sniping. It's explaining and justifying.



Not to mention important. I generally consider it pertinent to point out someones complete lack of experience when they speak as an authority on a subject. Book knowledge isn't a substitute for real life experience, and it certainly doesn't give you a green card to argue with those who actually have it….Which seems to be the root of this "sniping".

Well-said, Mike.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Yvonne G said:


> Because they were sniping back and forth at each other and not adding anything constructive to the thread.


In school they call this debating the person and not the topic. If you have no arguments with the information provided, but don't find the nature of how it is communicated or dislike the communicator you point out issues with the messenger, not the message. It's called a 'straw man' argument. Lawyers are expert at it, as are politicians. The opposite too, you like someone or the way they present a message, and even if the content is poor you agree with it, as 'respect' to the messenger, not the message.


----------



## SteveW

Alaskamike said:


> Dear Yvonne , To me " sniping " is more like ...
> " you're a poopy head "
> " no you are!"
> "Am not !"
> "are so !"
> " well you're just dumb "
> " but rocks know more than you do !"
> Etc.
> 
> If a member gets their dander up and digresses to ad hominem attack - well okay. Knock it off.
> 
> .



Only idiots use ad hominem attacks


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## SteveW

Yvonne G said:


> Because they were sniping back and forth at each other and not adding anything constructive to the thread.



I see your point, but in a big picture , meta-discussion sort of way, they really were, particularly as to the OP's original question. How, indeed to correct a mistake, particularly a really bad one when authority itself is in question. 

My suggestion is to qualify the information and describe the source. For example, when I post a picture of my Russian tortoise aquatic tank, Tom can tell me that he has raised a ton of them and that's not how to do it. Ascot may say she has other species and that's not how to do it. Wellington might say as a long time forum member, she's seen a lot of Russian set ups and that's not how to do it. 
I, of course may say I've just conferred with Pet Empire and the employees are on my side. That's none of the aforementioneds problem, and they have held serve in insuring other folks see bad husbandry addressed. Anyway, just a thought

* Note - no Russian tortoises were harmed in the belaboring of this point.


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## Kapidolo Farms

SteveW said:


> Only idiots use ad hominem attacks


Steve is correct ad hominem is attacking the messenger not the message, straw man is refuting an argument not presented to avoid dealing with the real/primary argument. They might not be idiots, but just deceitful people, though with an emo thingy, maybe that's the ironic point.


----------



## SteveW

Will said:


> Steve is correct ad hominem is attacking the messenger not the message, straw man is refuting an argument not presented to avoid dealing with the real/primary argument. They might not be idiots, but just deceitful people, though with an emo thingy, maybe that's the ironic point.



Will, you see right through me and my emo thingys.


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## TexTorts

As somewhat of a Newbie myself-- I would want as much information as I could get in order to foster healthy and long-surviving animals. If you get "butt-hurt" over the constructive comments made by one or more members with more experience and/or knowledge, I believe you should take a step back and restrospect on why are you got into and are raising torts and why are you on a forum to begin with. 

Straight and honest information has led to our having many healthy animals. Things read and learned on the internet have been debated and either proven true or negated for us. The newbies that join the forum will either learn from the information given by members or simply leave (which is sad). 

This practice of information give and take differentiates the "pet owners" from the "pet lovers". I have seen an abundance of both. Your practices and voice can foster either one and set you apart! I would assume all are on this forum because they "love" their babies. 

This can be done with respect- but, don't be such a soft touch that the animal is in danger because one or more of us are afraid we are going to hurt someone's feelings and didn't speak up. Remember, it's ultimately about the animal. They are such incredible animals! Let's work together to foster greatness in their very long lives!


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## mike taylor

Word your stuff nicely and tell them the reason why you can't keep doing whatever it was .


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## Bogie=babyDINO

mike taylor said:


> Word your stuff nicely and tell them the reason why you can't keep doing whatever it was .


Right? I feel like that's all people need to do. Be nice to each other. If you correct them politely and they still get mad that's not on you.


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## CharlieM

I belong to a Facebook group that has the following rules:

1) keep it friendly at all times 
2) don't give advice unless asked 
3) no judging anyone 
4) nobody owes anyone an explanation 
5) save the lectures for a pm or a phone call 
6) respect each other and their opinions. 

I'm not saying this is correct but it's food for thought...


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## wellington

CharlieM said:


> I belong to a Facebook group that has the following rules:
> 
> 1) keep it friendly at all times
> 2) don't give advice unless asked
> 3) no judging anyone
> 4) nobody owes anyone an explanation
> 5) save the lectures for a pm or a phone call
> 6) respect each other and their opinions.
> 
> I'm not saying this is correct but it's food for thought...



A couple of these I see tortoises suffering. Like #2, you might not get another chance or they may not know they are dong bad for their tort #5 although I don't think anyone needs to actually lecture, and #4, that's true, but if you can't back up what you say with something, then I sure hope no one believes you. 
Is this Facebook group for animals? If not, there's a big difference when an animal is involved. If it is, the tortoise Facebook your talking about, I have heard bad things about them, like still giving bad advice and doing things wrong


----------



## Alaskamike

CharlieM said:


> I belong to a Facebook group that has the following rules:
> 
> 1) keep it friendly at all times
> 2) don't give advice unless asked
> 3) no judging anyone
> 4) nobody owes anyone an explanation
> 5) save the lectures for a pm or a phone call
> 6) respect each other and their opinions.
> 
> I'm not saying this is correct but it's food for thought...


I understand why these guidelines might be appropriate in some forums. But here we are a place of information and education. 
I would take issue with 2,3 & 4. 
Advice is needed and necessary asked or not when an animals well being is involved. 

Judging is nothing more than weighing the facts and drawing a conclusion 

And when advice is given we do owe an explanation. Additionally , if I post a picture of my dog next to a tortoise , I should explain how I keep my tortoise safe from him - so new keepers don't get the idea this is common practice and safe. 

There is a presumptive purpose in the tortoise forum that differs from others; people join and participate to share "best care " practices , solve problems, share success as well as failure. 

I NEED information , advice, suggestions, and education. There are plenty of places to merely share cute pictures and get pats on the back. Being a better tortoise keeper is my goal for participating in this forum. 

And I make a presumption it is the goal of participants here also.


----------



## CharlieM

Yes it's for animals @wellington in fact very similar content to this forum. 
Again, I'm just sharing an example not agreeing or disagreeing. I will add though that many don't post much for fear of being judged and lectured...


----------



## Elohi

CharlieM said:


> Yes it's for animals @wellington in fact very similar content to this forum.
> Again, I'm just sharing an example not agreeing or disagreeing. I will add though that many don't post much for fear of being judged and lectured...


And are there a lot of animals lost in this group? I am member of several fb groups and one in particular is heavy in animal loss... (Hatchlings in particular)


----------



## CharlieM

Elohi said:


> And are there a lot of animals lost in this group? I am member of several fb groups and one in particular is heavy in animal loss... (Hatchlings in particular)



No. They aren't dropping like flies.


----------



## aundreagwen

I have been on this forum a very short time. I came on here after acquiring two tortoises and showing off the enclosure. Immediately I was advised to separate the tortoises and given tips about the enclosure. I posted pictures of my dogs with the tortoise and was immediately cautioned about what could happen. I am a new tortoise owner who clearly has a lot to learn and I took everyone's advice and knew it was for the better of my animal. I have seen people here get very offended with the recommendations offered. If you truly care for your animal and you want the best life for them than you should not take offense to people giving you advice on how to properly care for them. These are creatures that need a certain level of specialized care and I feel the only way to learn how to care for them best is from people who have experience. I thank everyone who has given me advice and warned me of things I am doing wrong or what could go wrong.


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## Tom

aundreagwen said:


> I have been on this forum a very short time. I came on here after acquiring two tortoises and showing off the enclosure. Immediately I was advised to separate the tortoises and given tips about the enclosure. I posted pictures of my dogs with the tortoise and was immediately cautioned about what could happen. I am a new tortoise owner who clearly has a lot to learn and I took everyone's advice and knew it was for the better of my animal. I have seen people here get very offended with the recommendations offered. If you truly care for your animal and you want the best life for them than you should not take offense to people giving you advice on how to properly care for them. These are creatures that need a certain level of specialized care and I feel the only way to learn how to care for them best is from people who have experience. I thank everyone who has given me advice and warned me of things I am doing wrong or what could go wrong.



Thank you for sharing this. The interesting thing for me about this subject is that some people take it like you did and thank the people who tried to help them, while other people get defensive and snotty and don't seem to appreciate the help. Why?

Why did you get the impression we only wanted to help, while others think they are being insulted and attacked? Is it the personality of the the receiver? Is it the manner of the advice giver? Both?

I've been so successful at helping so many people and I have received so many thanks both publicly and privately, but I still seem to offend a few people every year with the same words I used for the many people who are thanking me. It would be easy to just write it off as those few people are messed up, but I want to improve my methods. Anyone who leaves mad or frustrated is not going to get help for their tortoise, and that is the opposite of my goal.

Would you mind giving a brief explanation of why you perceived the words directed your way as such a positive message? Or maybe some insight into why someone else might have perceived those same words differently?


----------



## AnimalLady

Tom said:


> Thank you for sharing this. The interesting thing for me about this subject is that some people take it like you did and thank the people who tried to help them, while other people get defensive and snotty and don't seem to appreciate the help. Why?
> 
> Why did you get the impression we only wanted to help, while others think they are being insulted and attacked? Is it the personality of the the receiver? Is it the manner of the advice giver? Both?
> 
> I've been so successful at helping so many people and I have received so many thanks both publicly and privately, but I still seem to offend a few people every year with the same words I used for the many people who are thanking me. It would be easy to just write it off as those few people are messed up, but I want to improve my methods. Anyone who leaves mad or frustrated is not going to get help for their tortoise, and that is the opposite of my goal.
> 
> Would you mind giving a brief explanation of why you perceived the words directed your way as such a positive message? Or maybe some insight into why someone else might have perceived those same words differently?



Tom,
I'm going to be 100% honest with you, don't get mad.

Some of your responses come off sounding dck-headed. I read one the other day and I'm trying to remember where and I was like... oh man, it was a bit cold I guess. I'll see if I can remember where I read it and link it.

*backs up slowly*


----------



## AnimalLady

ok, I cant find it, sorry :\


----------



## Alaskamike

AnimalLady said:


> Tom,
> I'm going to be 100% honest with you, don't get mad.
> 
> Some of your responses come off sounding dck-headed. I read one the other day and I'm trying to remember where and I was like... oh man, it was a bit cold I guess. I'll see if I can remember where I read it and link it.
> 
> *backs up slowly*


The issue , I believe , is often that the printed word is more sensitive to interpretation than a face to face discussion. This is why those little emoticons were created. 
When we read something , we project our interpretation on it and often are reading " between the lines" for the meaning and emotional impact. 

What I try to do , since I communicate in print often ,,is to check my intent as I write. In other words : search my motivations a bit to be certain what they are so that my writing conveys that. 

There are times I intentionally want to bring someone up short - make a pithy point- maybe even bring into question their intelligence. But if this is not my intent , I chose my words a bit more carefully. 

My background is in science. I'll never forget asking a question in graduate school and the professor responding with 

" Now that's a stupid question !" 

And it was. 

Quite a shock to my system. Hahaha 

And a direct challenge to my intellect. But good for me. 

Here we have no idea the background, learning, experience or sometimes even the age of who we are corresponding with - unless they tell us. Even then much is unknown. 

The extreme efforts and time folks on here like Tom , Yvonne, Wellington, N2TORTS, and many many others devote for absolutely no remuneration is amazing. Sometimes when giving advice it is interpreted as insulting or overly critical. 

But I think , as one who reads allot of replies ,,99% of the time it is well written and measured. 

The occasional pithy reply is just that - occasional.


----------



## Tom

AnimalLady said:


> ok, I cant find it, sorry :\



I can't explain or learn from it if we can't find it...


----------



## AnimalLady

Alaskamike said:


> The issue , I believe , is often that the printed word is more sensitive to interpretation than a face to face discussion. This is why those little emoticons were created.
> When we read something , we project our interpretation on it and often are reading " between the lines" for the meaning and emotional impact.
> 
> What I try to do , since I communicate in print often ,,is to check my intent as I write. In other words : search my motivations a bit to be certain what they are so that my writing conveys that.
> 
> There are times I intentionally want to bring someone up short - make a pithy point- maybe even bring into question their intelligence. But if this is not my intent , I chose my words a bit more carefully.
> 
> My background is in science. I'll never forget asking a question in graduate school and the professor responding with
> 
> " Now that's a stupid question !"
> 
> And it was.
> 
> Quite a shock to my system. Hahaha
> 
> And a direct challenge to my intellect. But good for me.
> 
> Here we have no idea the background, learning, experience or sometimes even the age of who we are corresponding with - unless they tell us. Even then much is unknown.
> 
> The extreme efforts and time folks on here like Tom , Yvonne, Wellington, N2TORTS, and many many others devote for absolutely no remuneration is amazing. Sometimes when giving advice it is interpreted as insulting or overly critical.
> 
> But I think , as one who reads allot of replies ,,99% of the time it is well written and measured.
> 
> The occasional pithy reply is just that - occasional.



YES, I agree 100% with you. See, ive been here for about a month, reading and reading and reading. I have become familiar with some of the people here, the more outspoken ones (you're one of them) I have already picked up on how some people here speak, I know that some are more giggly, some are more serious, some are dry.. etc etc. BUT, if I was completely new and I got a somewhat cold or dry response I might use caution on how I post or interact with people here. Luckily for me, my personality doesn't allow me to take anything to heart, I can converse with a wide range of people and never get emotionally bothered. That's not the case for all though.

I didn't mean to offend Tom, or anyone else with my comment, I honestly just said what I felt. I appreciate the advice and conversation I get on here.... I was just sayin'


----------



## AnimalLady

Tom said:


> I can't explain or learn from it if we can't find it...


I know, I'm sorry Tom, I'm still looking! Please don't get mad with me!


----------



## Tom

AnimalLady said:


> I know, I'm sorry Tom, I'm still looking! Please don't get mad with me!



Why would I be mad? You are answering a question that I asked. You are helping me.


----------



## AnimalLady

Tom said:


> Why would I be mad? You are answering a question that I asked. You are helping me.



It took a lot of guts for me to say that and I was pretty worried you'd be pissed.... good to know you aren't! I will continue looking.

I do remember the response being straight forward and to the point and cold. FML I just cant remember where!!


----------



## aundreagwen

Speaking for myself, I have been a member of a boston terrier forum for 7 years so I am familiar with the environment. Tone is difficult to gauge in print and some people take being told they're wrong very personal, regardless of how it is delivered.


----------



## Tom

AnimalLady said:


> ok, I cant find it, sorry :\



Was it this one?
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sulcata-tortoise-feeding.130274/


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Tom said:


> Was it this one?
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sulcata-tortoise-feeding.130274/


To me multiple 'why' sound like a bored little kid, why? blah blah blah. why? etc.

like maybe you didn't have the time to offer much, but didn't want to loose the question so blurted out a bunch of why's. No dhead though.


----------



## dmmj

IRL tom is very nice just FYI. not at all intimidating whatsoever.


----------



## AnimalLady

Tom said:


> Was it this one?
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sulcata-tortoise-feeding.130274/


No, it was a shorter response, but, uhm that ones a bit nasty too..

I want to say it was either about a dog or the tort roaming the house.. Something the owner was doing wrong, for the life of me I can't find it.

I don't know if I'm right, but I think the sentence started with "Let me guess" again, I'm not positive, but I seem to remember something along those lines..


----------



## AnimalLady

dmmj said:


> IRL tom is very nice just FYI. not at all intimidating whatsoever.


I bet he is.... I don't think he's mean! Errz, maybe I should have just kept my mouth shut :/


----------



## Team Gomberg

dmmj said:


> IRL tom is very nice just FYI. not at all intimidating whatsoever.



Seriously, it's true.

After being around him, I can't wrap my brain around people's accusations that's he's a prideful know it all. 
He's not.

I don't like typed discussions for this very reason. You can't interpret tone or body language.


----------



## wellington

Team Gomberg said:


> Seriously, it's true.
> 
> After being around him, I can't wrap my brain around people's accusations that's he's a prideful know it all.
> He's not.
> 
> I don't like typed discussions for this very reason. You can't interpret tone or body language.



I so agree. I don't get it either. He is so easy to talk to. I could have talked for hours when he visited. The help he gives, he will go way out of his way to help. I just don't get it and never will. I think some members make him sound intimidating and that's why others think so. It's funny, most that say these things about him, usually doesn't offer much help to members.


----------



## Alaskamike

wellington said:


> I so agree. I don't get it either. He is so easy to talk to. I could have talked for hours when he visited. The help he gives, he will go way out of his way to help. I just don't get it and never will. I think some members make him sound intimidating and that's why others think so. It's funny, most that say these things about him, usually doesn't offer much help to members.


I don't know Tom but I am sure you are right. 

But I beg to differ here on the value of critique - of Tom or anyone. 

Discussions like this are almost always among the more active and mature members with a motivation to improve our ( and I say " our" in the broadest sense ) Tortoise Forum. 

It is precisely because Tom offers so much help that occasionally he gets maligned. ( and he's not the only one) If he - or any of the other very active members were quiet - it would never come up. 

If you do little or nothing - there will never be any controversy or criticism. But if you put yourself on the front lines , expect some fireworks once in awhile. 

'No good deed goes unpunished ' 
An old adage says - Too true. 

This discussion is in some ways about risk / reward. If suggestions are given , critique made , we risk offense. If they are not made , and made with some conviction - a tortoise suffers , as well as the owner when they get sick or die. 

I believe everyone who tries to help does so with success in mind : success for the owner & success for the tortoise. 

Discussions like this help me. When I offer my take on things , I know I'll try and avoid coming across as a **** head. Not always easy for sure. Not even always my nature. 
But I'll try.


----------



## wellington

Alaskamike said:


> I don't know Tom but I am sure you are right.
> 
> But I beg to differ here on the value of critique - of Tom or anyone.
> 
> Discussions like this are almost always among the more active and mature members with a motivation to improve our ( and I say " our" in the broadest sense ) Tortoise Forum.
> 
> It is precisely because Tom offers so much help that occasionally he gets maligned. ( and he's not the only one) If he - or any of the other very active members were quiet - it would never come up.
> 
> If you do little or nothing - there will never be any controversy or criticism. But if you put yourself on the front lines , expect some fireworks once in awhile.
> 
> 'No good deed goes unpunished '
> An old adage says - Too true.
> 
> This discussion is in some ways about risk / reward. If suggestions are given , critique made , we risk offense. If they are not made , and made with some conviction - a tortoise suffers , as well as the owner when they get sick or die.
> 
> I believe everyone who tries to help does so with success in mind : success for the owner & success for the tortoise.
> 
> Discussions like this help me. When I offer my take on things , I know I'll try and avoid coming across as a **** head. Not always easy for sure. Not even always my nature.
> But I'll try.


You possibly misunderstood. I totally agree with what you said. My point, over the years I have been here, a few have argued with or about Tom or his thread/post contributions, or how he comes across, yet they don't really offer much input on the forum for helping others. 
I'm all for new ideas of doing things. I too love to learn all there is when it comes to the animals I have. But if your going to try and discredit someone with other ways of doing things, or making one sound "almighty" then share the details and proof like Tom has. Maybe get to really know him and understand his passion. Don't just try to discredit by name calling or disagreeing Since I joined in 2011, I don't remember a member trying as hard to improve the life of tortoises and sharing everything they know or do.


----------



## Tom

Alaskamike said:


> I don't know Tom but I am sure you are right.
> 
> But I beg to differ here on the value of critique - of Tom or anyone.
> 
> Discussions like this are almost always among the more active and mature members with a motivation to improve our ( and I say " our" in the broadest sense ) Tortoise Forum.
> 
> It is precisely because Tom offers so much help that occasionally he gets maligned. ( and he's not the only one) If he - or any of the other very active members were quiet - it would never come up.
> 
> If you do little or nothing - there will never be any controversy or criticism. But if you put yourself on the front lines , expect some fireworks once in awhile.
> 
> 'No good deed goes unpunished '
> An old adage says - Too true.
> 
> This discussion is in some ways about risk / reward. If suggestions are given , critique made , we risk offense. If they are not made , and made with some conviction - a tortoise suffers , as well as the owner when they get sick or die.
> 
> I believe everyone who tries to help does so with success in mind : success for the owner & success for the tortoise.
> 
> Discussions like this help me. When I offer my take on things , I know I'll try and avoid coming across as a **** head. Not always easy for sure. Not even always my nature.
> But I'll try.



Summed up: If you wanna make an omelet, you are gonna have to break some eggs.


----------



## Tom

wellington said:


> You possibly misunderstood. I totally agree with what you said. My point, over the years I have been here, a few have argued with or about Tom or his thread/post contributions, or how he comes across, yet they don't really offer much input on the forum for helping others.
> I'm all for new ideas of doing things. I too love to learn all there is when it comes to the animals I have. But if your going to try and discredit someone with other ways of doing things, or making one sound "almighty" then share the details and proof like Tom has. Maybe get to really know him and understand his passion. Don't just try to discredit by name calling or disagreeing Since I joined in 2011, I don't remember a member trying as hard to improve the life of tortoises and sharing everything they know or do.



I get exactly what you are saying. My biggest detractors over the years have contributed almost nothing to this forum or to helping others. Their activity on this forum centers on discrediting me or others who exhibit any sense of agreeing with what I have said because it worked for them.

Its crazy isn't it? I say what I say because of open experiments done in full public view where everyone can see the results, good or bad. My detractors come on and make all sorts of wild assertions with NOTHING to back them up. When asked to back them up with pics and evidence, they begin attacking my character, the character of anyone who agrees with me based on their own experience with the subject matter, or they leave, or they talk about their speculations of what happens in the wild, or they start calling me names and leveling all sorts of accusations about my personality and "god" complexes, all the while trying to ignore the large and obvious facts that I have placed right in front of their face.


----------



## mike taylor

Well Tom all I can say is you must sleep good knowing you tried to help as many keepers as you could . I know I've tried your keeping methods and they have worked great . For the nay sayers you should give it a try . I personally wouldn't try to fight about it anymore because it's the same few nah sayers every time . Say what works for you add your pictures to provide proof . If new members go with you they will have a pet tort for a long long time .If they go with the nay sayers information in a month or so they should see its not going to work and try a new method . It's to bad someone who is trying to help gets so much flack . You have a lot of people who back what you do . Keep doing it brother .


----------



## AnimalLady

Ok, so, I want to make this clear, just in case I was misunderstood~

My comment was not to accuse Tom of being a dhead, all i said was certain responses sound dheaded. There is a difference. Like others have mentioned, its hard to grasp the true intent *sometimes* on the computer. I was speaking more regarding people who come here for advice and then carry on. These people dont stick around and get to know a person, some of them dont spend time on here to see post after post of the person who they think gave them a nasty response. They dont see the bigger picture, they only saw the response they got and thats it.

I do not think he is mean, i do not think he is a dhead, i dont think anything negatively about him what so ever. I personally have asked him for advice, and he has taken the time out of his day to write me a very detailed and informative response (which I honestly appreciate more than ya'll know!). I take his advice, i truly do, because his passion shows in his response. I have been here ohhhh a month or so? So i have read countless replies from him. I understand he isnt a d! I also understand his responses are written with the absolute best interest of the animal in question. I get this, but I get this because i have read more than one of his responses, hell more than 10 of them! I see his motive, and its not to sound almighty. I actually asked Tom a question yesterday, and it was "Do you consider yourself an expert?" Go read his response, he doesnt sound like a too good know it all at all. So, thats further proof that I do not think he's a d!

It was also mentioned that some members make him sound intimidating and other members just go with that, not the case here. I'm not that type of person, i come to my own conclusions.

I wrote what I said because i meant it, some responses come off like WHOA, but i really dont think its an issue that should be addressed..sometimes on forums responses will come off sounding like that no matter what! People dont like to be told theyre wrong, its human nature.. depending on the individual the reaction differs. You cant please everyone, and thats just the nature of the beast! I didnt write my response to start crap or to **** off anyone. Some of the responses after my comment give me the feeling that theres drama here in between members, bigger than what i said, and have nothing to do with me.... but i guess i feel bad since my comment sparked a little crap poof.
I'm sorry if I pissed anyone off, it really wasnt my intent.
I'll be sure to keep my mouth shut in regards to posts like this.


----------



## Tom

AnimalLady said:


> Ok, so, I want to make this clear, just in case I was misunderstood~
> 
> My comment was not to accuse Tom of being a dhead, all i said was certain responses sound dhead. There is a difference. Like others have mentioned, its hard to grasp the true intent *sometimes* on the computer. I was speaking more regarding people who come here for advice and then carry on. These people dont stick around and get to know a person, some of them dont spend time on here to see post after post of the person who they think gave them a nasty response. They dont see the bigger picture, they only saw the response they got and thats it.
> 
> I do not think he is mean, i do not think he is a dhead, i dont think anything negatively about him what so ever. I personally have asked him for advice, and he has taken the time out of his day to write me a very detailed and informative response (which I honestly appreciate more than ya'll know!). I take his advice, i truly do, because his passion shows in his response. I have been here ohhhh a month or so? So i have read countless replies from him. I understand he isnt a d! I also understand his responses are written with the absolute best interest of the animal in question. I get this, but I get this because i have read more than one of his responses, hell more than 10 of them! I see his motive, and its not to sound almighty. I actually asked Tom a question yesterday, and it was "Do you consider yourself an expert?" Go read his response, he doesnt sound like a too good know it all at all. So, thats further proof that I do not think he's a d!
> 
> It was also mentioned that some members make him sound intimidating and other members just go with that, not the case here. I'm not that type of person, i come to my own conclusions.
> 
> I wrote what I said because i meant it, some responses come off like WHOA, but i really dont think its an issue that should be addressed..sometimes on forums responses will come off sounding like that no matter what! People dont like to be told theyre wrong, its human nature.. depending on the individual the reaction differs. You cant please everyone, and thats just the nature of the beast! I didnt write my response to start crap or to **** off anyone. Some of the responses after my comment give me the feeling that theres drama here in between members, bigger than what i said, and have nothing to do with me.... but i guess i feel bad since my comment sparked a little crap poof.
> I'm sorry if I p-ed anyone off, it really wasnt my intent.
> I'll be sure to keep my mouth shut in regards to posts like this.




Oh Stop it. No one is at all upset with you! We are just conversing. You are already part of the group and we like you and you don't need to explain stuff like this.

Like Mike has been explaining, candid discussion and people sharing their opinions in a constructive way, like what you did, is a good thing. You shared your thoughts on the post you saw, and I'd like to learn from it, or at least explain it, if we knew which one it was. Sometimes I am intentionally a little saucy when I feel it is justified, so your observation is probably spot on. Don't retreat. Stand your ground. Your comment was relevant, helpful and probably accurate. Others are just sharing their thoughts too. Its ALL good. I don't want you to feel like you need to censor yourself when talking with all of us. Speak freely. Let your personality come out. This is an open discussion in the debatable section and I, the original poster, welcomed all discussion and opinions. I thank you for boldly sharing yours. Don't hesitate to do it again, even if you think someone might disagree or get their feathers ruffled.


----------



## AnimalLady

Tom said:


> Oh Stop it. No one is at all upset with you! We are just conversing. You are already part of the group and we like you and you don't need to explain stuff like this.
> 
> Like Mike has been explaining, candid discussion and people sharing their opinions in a constructive way, like what you did, is a good thing. You shared your thoughts on the post you saw, and I'd like to learn from it, or at least explain it, if we knew which one it was. Sometimes I am intentionally a little saucy when I feel it is justified, so your observation is probably spot on. Don't retreat. Stand your ground. Your comment was relevant, helpful and probably accurate. Others are just sharing their thoughts too. Its ALL good. I don't want you to feel like you need to censor yourself when talking with all of us. Speak freely. Let your personality come out. This is an open discussion in the debatable section and I, the original poster, welcomed all discussion and opinions. I thank you for boldly sharing yours. Don't hesitate to do it again, even if you think someone might disagree or get their feathers ruffled.





Thank you! I was on shut down mode, lol


----------



## Prairie Mom

SteveW said:


> So I missed this bit, apparently. Why (moderators) would these posts be deleted? Yes, there is disagreement but it is on the debatable section. What is more relevant to the sharing of knowledge than determining how someone came by that knowledge?
> When I showed up with some (minor) differences of opinion, Wellington (a moderator, I gather) wasted no time in asking me. This was an appropriate response then and to this new member at least, appropriate now.
> I don't think it completely discounts someone's opinion if it based on other species, but it does pay to weigh accordingly.
> Someone, somewhere in this thread said there are no experts or something to that effect. That may or may not be true but I'd vote for firsthand experience being the nearest approximation.





Yvonne G said:


> Because they were sniping back and forth at each other and not adding anything constructive to the thread.





Alaskamike said:


> Dear Yvonne , To me " sniping " is more like ...
> " you're a poopy head "
> " no you are!" .



(Yvonne, Steve, & Mike please excuse the reply, I only quote you to give reference to my post)
(Also, Tom, you and I spoke about this subject recently. I'm really impressed with the way you've handled this thread)
---------------
I'm catching up on this interesting discussion. I'm just throwing out my opinion in regards to moderating posts, because it differs from a few of you and I want all opinions to be represented. I feel there are good points on both sides. -However-, I am one, that has come to appreciate moderator intervention, and there have been times that I wish it happened a bit more often. I appreciated the caution for posters to reign it in, because a trend that I am seeing throughout the forum is that people obviously know that they can be kicked off for "being blatantly rude and/or insulting," and rather than speaking more respectfully, they are sadly working on ways to just lay out insults in a slightly more indirect way.

I'm also not a fan of the abbreviated swearing. It's pointless. I still READ the swearing in my head. In fact, I think the little stars etc draw more attention to the swear word and this is supposed a Family Friendly site. I, personally, am more inclined to wear pie on my face rather than a halo on my head, but come on!...we have some young members that poke around this site. I also regularly have my own children (who are becoming excellent readers!) constantly looking over my shoulders as I read threads because they want to see the cute tortoise pictures in all of your avatars.

I know censorship is a tricky discussion and that is basically what we are talking about here, no one wants to feel they are on the receiving end of that nasty word, but I personally look to our moderators to set the tone on this forum.


----------



## wellington

AnimalLady said:


> Ok, so, I want to make this clear, just in case I was misunderstood~
> 
> My comment was not to accuse Tom of being a dhead, all i said was certain responses sound dheaded. There is a difference. Like others have mentioned, its hard to grasp the true intent *sometimes* on the computer. I was speaking more regarding people who come here for advice and then carry on. These people dont stick around and get to know a person, some of them dont spend time on here to see post after post of the person who they think gave them a nasty response. They dont see the bigger picture, they only saw the response they got and thats it.
> 
> I do not think he is mean, i do not think he is a dhead, i dont think anything negatively about him what so ever. I personally have asked him for advice, and he has taken the time out of his day to write me a very detailed and informative response (which I honestly appreciate more than ya'll know!). I take his advice, i truly do, because his passion shows in his response. I have been here ohhhh a month or so? So i have read countless replies from him. I understand he isnt a d! I also understand his responses are written with the absolute best interest of the animal in question. I get this, but I get this because i have read more than one of his responses, hell more than 10 of them! I see his motive, and its not to sound almighty. I actually asked Tom a question yesterday, and it was "Do you consider yourself an expert?" Go read his response, he doesnt sound like a too good know it all at all. So, thats further proof that I do not think he's a d!
> 
> It was also mentioned that some members make him sound intimidating and other members just go with that, not the case here. I'm not that type of person, i come to my own conclusions.
> 
> I wrote what I said because i meant it, some responses come off like WHOA, but i really dont think its an issue that should be addressed..sometimes on forums responses will come off sounding like that no matter what! People dont like to be told theyre wrong, its human nature.. depending on the individual the reaction differs. You cant please everyone, and thats just the nature of the beast! I didnt write my response to start crap or to **** off anyone. Some of the responses after my comment give me the feeling that theres drama here in between members, bigger than what i said, and have nothing to do with me.... but i guess i feel bad since my comment sparked a little crap poof.
> I'm sorry if I p-ed anyone off, it really wasnt my intent.
> I'll be sure to keep my mouth shut in regards to posts like this.



Your too funny. I wasn't talking about you. Sorry if you thought that.


----------



## wellington

Prairie Mom said:


> (Yvonne, Steve, & Mike please excuse the reply, I only quote you to give reference to my post)
> (Also, Tom, you and I spoke about this subject recently. I'm really impressed with the way you've handled this thread)
> ---------------
> I'm catching up on this interesting discussion. I'm just throwing out my opinion in regards to moderating posts, because it differs from a few of you and I want all opinions to be represented. I feel there are good points on both sides. -However-, I am one, that has come to appreciate moderator intervention, and there have been times that I wish it happened a bit more often. I appreciated the caution for posters to reign it in, because a trend that I am seeing throughout the forum is that people obviously know that they can be kicked off for "being blatantly rude and/or insulting," and rather than speaking more respectfully, they are sadly working on ways to just lay out insults in a slightly more indirect way.
> 
> I'm also not a fan of the abbreviated swearing. It's pointless. I still READ the swearing in my head. In fact, I think the little stars etc draw more attention to the swear word and this is supposed a Family Friendly site. I, personally, am more inclined to wear pie on my face rather than a halo on my head, but come on!...we have some young members that poke around this site. I also regularly have my own children (who are becoming excellent readers!) constantly looking over my shoulders as I read threads because they want to see the cute tortoise pictures in all of your avatars.
> 
> I know censorship is a tricky discussion and that is basically what we are talking about here, no one wants to feel they are on the receiving end of that nasty word, but I personally look to our moderators to set the tone on this forum.



Although you pointed it out, I will say it again. 
*The cuss/nasty words need to be abbreviated a bit more and more *** being used.*


----------



## Prairie Mom

wellington said:


> Although you pointed it out, I will say it again.
> *The cuss/nasty words need to be abbreviated a bit more and more *** being used.*


The mom in me would also add that the Dictionary has become impossibly large. There are plenty of other word choices that are funnier and can make someone appear far more witty


----------



## wellington

Okay, so you all know. I did some editing of the too little abbreviating of inappropriate words. I did not delete anything, just made the words a little less obvious. If I missed any let me know


----------



## AnimalLady

Sorry! I am a potty mouth by nature. I will be sure to be more careful. No worries.


----------



## wellington

AnimalLady said:


> Sorry! I am a potty mouth by nature. I will be sure to be more careful. No worries.



I am too, so it takes me longer or a nudge to see it. I'm very immune. Thank you and yours wasn't the only one


----------



## Prairie Mom

In regards to early comments wondering where people think the negativity is coming from.. 

I don't think most of it is really coming from the longer term members and I think threads like this very one that we are participating on have REALLY HELPED change the tone on the forum.

My suspicion is that the people who have been here longer are getting the hang of how to deal with the different situations on the forum. I actually think it comes more from the "middle population"-those like myself who still have some kinks to work out in our "forum-kung fu," ('forum-fu?, "the Forum FORCE is not as strong with us"?, not a high count of "Midi-forumians"?)

One burning example in my mind is that I remember quite a while ago in the enclosure section, a new member who was an obvious craftsman built an incredible tortoise chamber with waterfalls for humidity and a really stunning design. I believe he was some kind of industrial designer/architect. The big controversy was that he was using smooth black river rocks as substrate and if I remember right, he had some water moving under them as some kind of a self-cleaning filtration system. I understood the debate about the substrate, but I was shocked at how some forum members handled him and his post. The first really negative forum member wrote nearly a page picking apart e-v-e-r-y-t-h-I-n-g and commenting negatively in what I perceived as a rather forceful way. Because the negative commenter spoke so well and in such a strong voice, tons of people lined up to parrot what the member said and click the "like" button. The new member never responded and was obviously permanently chased away. I'm disappointed that they wouldn't feel comfortable posting further. This guy is someone who creates professionally, I'm certain he is doing AMAZING things as his tortoises get larger! Maybe he decided to change the substrate after all. My own tortoise has a preference for smooth surfaces to lay on. His husbandry looked like he cared for his tortoise. I would have loved to see what else he came up with and I wish I could see what he's up to today.

I really think threads like this are so beneficial. This thread has certainly helped me to think about a few things I can be doing.


----------



## Tom

I missed that one. Anyone got a link?


----------



## AnimalLady

Prairie Mom said:


> In regards to early comments wondering where people think the negativity is coming from..
> 
> I don't think most of it is really coming from the longer term members and I think threads like this very one that we are participating on have REALLY HELPED change the tone on the forum.
> 
> My suspicion is that the people who have been here longer are getting the hang of how to deal with the different situations on the forum. I actually think it comes more from the "middle population"-those like myself who still have some kinks to work out in our "forum-kung fu," ('forum-fu?, "the Forum FORCE is not as strong with us"?, not a high count of "Midi-forumians"?)
> 
> One burning example in my mind is that I remember quite a while ago in the enclosure section, a new member who was an obvious craftsman built an incredible tortoise chamber with waterfalls for humidity and a really stunning design. I believe he was some kind of industrial designer/architect. The big controversy was that he was using smooth black river rocks as substrate and if I remember right, he had some water moving under them as some kind of a self-cleaning filtration system. I understood the debate about the substrate, but I was shocked at how some forum members handled him and his post. The first really negative forum member wrote nearly a page picking apart e-v-e-r-y-t-h-I-n-g and commenting negatively in what I perceived as a rather forceful way. Because the negative commenter spoke so well and in such a strong voice, tons of people lined up to parrot what the member said and click the "like" button. The new member never responded and was obviously permanently chased away. I'm disappointed that they wouldn't feel comfortable posting further. This guy is someone who creates professionally, I'm certain he is doing AMAZING things as his tortoises get larger! Maybe he decided to change the substrate after all. My own tortoise has a preference for smooth surfaces to lay on. His husbandry looked like he cared for his tortoise. I would have loved to see what else he came up with and I wish I could see what he's up to today.
> 
> I really think threads like this are so beneficial. This thread has certainly helped me to think about a few things I can be doing.


Does that thread still exist, i'd love to see it.


----------



## wellington

I think its a little of both. Once your on for quite some time, it can get on your nerves to see the same bad things posted over and over again. It's like they did no home work at all on here and then they want us to "awwww" over their bad choices, when it's the millionth time repeating the same thing over and over. Sometimes in one day there will be 2 or 3 posts at the same time, different members asking the same thing, that has been answered in a million threads.
Sometimes I think people are just short on time or patients, yet they want to hurry on the forum and try to help someone and it comes out short and a little snide. My main thing is, get them while you got them, but in the nicest way possible with the point still being highlighted.


----------



## Prairie Mom

Tom said:


> I missed that one. Anyone got a link?


@AnimalLady 

The thread is at least a year old. I actually remember this from when I first joined the forum. If I ever come across it again, I'll send it to anyone privately.


----------



## AnimalLady

Ohhh its an oldy, okay cool. Thanks!


----------



## Yvonne G

Prairie Mom said:


> @AnimalLady
> 
> The thread is at least a year old. I actually remember this from when I first joined the forum. If I ever come across it again, I'll send it to anyone privately.



Was that the guy whose username was the same as his business? And I think his actual business was building enclosures/habitats. I sort of remember him, but can't find him.


----------



## Prairie Mom

Yvonne G said:


> Was that the guy whose username was the same as his business? And I think his actual business was building enclosures/habitats. I sort of remember him, but can't find him.


I'm sorry. I don't remember. I actually did a few searches too. Maybe I shouldn't have even brought it up. I'll learn from this one...Sorry folks!


----------



## wellington

Prairie Mom said:


> I'm sorry. I don't remember. I actually did a few searches too. Maybe I shouldn't have even brought it up. I'll learn from this one...Sorry folks!


Don't be sorry. Maybe if we can find it, @jaizei is really good at finding stuff, we could all have a look that may have missed it, I don't remember it and who knows, might learn that the OP still lurks on the forum.


----------



## mike taylor

Prairie Mom said:


> (Yvonne, Steve, & Mike please excuse the reply, I only quote you to give reference to my post)
> (Also, Tom, you and I spoke about this subject recently. I'm really impressed with the way you've handled this thread)
> ---------------
> I'm catching up on this interesting discussion. I'm just throwing out my opinion in regards to moderating posts, because it differs from a few of you and I want all opinions to be represented. I feel there are good points on both sides. -However-, I am one, that has come to appreciate moderator intervention, and there have been times that I wish it happened a bit more often. I appreciated the caution for posters to reign it in, because a trend that I am seeing throughout the forum is that people obviously know that they can be kicked off for "being blatantly rude and/or insulting," and rather than speaking more respectfully, they are sadly working on ways to just lay out insults in a slightly more indirect way.
> 
> I'm also not a fan of the abbreviated swearing. It's pointless. I still READ the swearing in my head. In fact, I think the little stars etc draw more attention to the swear word and this is supposed a Family Friendly site. I, personally, am more inclined to wear pie on my face rather than a halo on my head, but come on!...we have some young members that poke around this site. I also regularly have my own children (who are becoming excellent readers!) constantly looking over my shoulders as I read threads because they want to see the cute tortoise pictures in all of your avatars.
> 
> I know censorship is a tricky discussion and that is basically what we are talking about here, no one wants to feel they are on the receiving end of that nasty word, but I personally look to our moderators to set the tone on this forum.


I'm not a mod . If that is what you are implying ?? Ha-ha I'm far from a roll model . Tom can get a little spicy with his wording but can you blame him ? I back him like a brother would . Hell I've even made a Tom thread . ha-ha I read Tom's post with a little sarcastic smile it helps it really does . ha-ha Like I said keep it up Tom .Even if you end up only saving one that's one more future adlut Tortoise to save a population .


----------



## Prairie Mom

mike taylor said:


> I'm not a mod . If that is what you are implying ?? Ha-ha I'm far from a roll model . Tom can get a little spicy with his wording but can you blame him ? I back him like a brother would . Hell I've even made a Tom thread . ha-ha I read Tom's post with a little sarcastic smile it helps it really does . ha-ha Like I said keep it up Tom .Even if you end up only saving one that's one more future adlut Tortoise to save a population .


Hi Mike, It took me a second to figure out what in the world you were talking about... I'M SO SORRY ABOUT THE CONFUSION...I was referring to "AlaskaMike." I clearly should have used his entire user name! If you'll look back at my post that confused you, I was quoting Yvonne G, Steve W, and AlaskaMike. I made the quick thoughtless assumption that his post quoted at the top of my thread would be enough. I left the little note to Yvonne G, Steve W, and Alaskamike kind of letting them know that I wasn't responding to their exact words, but their posts just provided me a reference point to the new random discussion about moderation on the forum. Please excuse any mix up here.

I also wasn't criticizing Tom in my post either, I hoped I was doing the opposite, and thought that I was letting him know that in my silly parentheses at the top. He and I had discussed this subject recently and he was incredibly kind to me. I think he handled some of the posts in this thread with a patience I WISH I had! I'm still glad you posted Mike TAYLOR You said some nice things


----------



## Neal

Prairie Mom said:


> I'm sorry. I don't remember. I actually did a few searches too. Maybe I shouldn't have even brought it up. I'll learn from this one...Sorry folks!



http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/a-planted-rainforest-redfoot-terrarium-v-2.108556/#post-1019706

Was it this one?


----------



## Prairie Mom

Neal said:


> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/a-planted-rainforest-redfoot-terrarium-v-2.108556/#post-1019706
> 
> Was it this one?


If it were, I don't think it should be posted outside of Pms.


----------



## Yvonne G

It's interesting to note that the OP of Neal's linked thread never commented. I closed the thread so no more comments could be made on it without the OP there anymore.


----------



## wellington

Prairie Mom said:


> If it were, I don't think it should be posted outside of Pms.


It's fine to be posted in the open its closed anyway and anyone could find it if they wanted to search hard enough. It actually should be in your post history and anyone else's that posted on it.
Btw, it's pretty cool. I did send the OP a pm and hopefully they will respond.


----------



## Yvonne G

It looks like I closed the wrong thread. But I've now re-opened THIS one and closed the one in Neal's link. I hope.


----------



## Yvonne G

wellington said:


> It's fine to be posted in the open its closed anyway and anyone could find it if they wanted to search hard enough. It actually should be in your post history and anyone else's that posted on it.
> Btw, it's pretty cool. I did send the OP a pm and hopefully they will respond.



They haven't visited the Forum since February.


----------



## aundreagwen

I can see where the OP would be disheartened by the reaction. He cleary put a lot of time and effort into the habitat.


----------



## mike taylor

Prairie Mom said:


> Hi Mike, It took me a second to figure out what in the world you were talking about... I'M SO SORRY ABOUT THE CONFUSION...I was referring to "AlaskaMike." I clearly should have used his entire user name! If you'll look back at my post that confused you, I was quoting Yvonne G, Steve W, and AlaskaMike. I made the quick thoughtless assumption that his post quoted at the top of my thread would be enough. I left the little note to Yvonne G, Steve W, and Alaskamike kind of letting them know that I wasn't responding to their exact words, but their posts just provided me a reference point to the new random discussion about moderation on the forum. Please excuse any mix up here.
> 
> I also wasn't criticizing Tom in my post either, I hoped I was doing the opposite, and thought that I was letting him know that in my silly parentheses at the top. He and I had discussed this subject recently and he was incredibly kind to me. I think he handled some of the posts in this thread with a patience I WISH I had! I'm still glad you posted Mike TAYLOR You said some nice things


I know that's why I said ( ha ha ) !!


----------



## dmmj

they may put a lot of work into the enclosure but if it's all wrong do you just keep quiet about it?


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## wellington

dmmj said:


> they may put a lot of work into the enclosure but if it's all wrong do you just keep quiet about it?


I didn't read the post, just looked at the pics. But from what I'm reading about it on here, it sounds like the comments weren't that nice, but don't know. My answer though, would be no, you still say something, but nicely. I really didn't see much wrong with the enclosure. The stones weren't small enough to be eaten, the tort probably wouldn't have to be worried about getting shell rot the way the substrate looked, but I also didnt read his thread which I think gave a lot of detail.


----------



## dmmj

wellington said:


> I didn't read the post, just looked at the pics. But from what I'm reading about it on here, it sounds like the comments weren't that nice, but don't know. My answer though, would be no, you still say something, but nicely. I really didn't see much wrong with the enclosure. The stones weren't small enough to be eaten, the tort probably wouldn't have to be worried about getting shell rot the way the substrate looked, but I also didnt read his thread which I think gave a lot of detail.


not nice? most people nowadays get their feelings hurt way too easily so not nice has different levels of acceptability. take the current generation for example can't take any criticism whatsoever.


----------



## aundreagwen

^^^ yes. 
So many times I have seen people complain about being bullied when someone voices a different opinion.


----------



## Tom

So some of us (Me) need to be more tactful sometimes, and others need to not be so darn sensitive when people are trying to help them.

Do I have that right?


----------



## wellington

Tom said:


> So some of us (Me) need to be more tactful sometimes, and others need to not be so darn sensitive when people are trying to help them.
> 
> Do I have that right?


I think that's it, except to also realize, no matter how nice you might be, some will still not be happy and that's on them, not you (whoever the "you" is at that time)


----------



## Prairie Mom

mike taylor said:


> I know that's why I said ( ha ha ) !!


----------



## mike taylor

Prairie Mom said:


>


Ha-ha you get it !


----------



## leigti

Prairie Mom said:


>


I don't get it.


----------



## Cowboy_Ken

Tom said:


> Oh Stop it. No one is at all upset with you! We are just conversing. You are already part of the group and we like you and you don't need to explain stuff like this.


 No kidding here AnimalLady. You are truly part of the "cool kids crowd" and you should know that by now. But, having Tom point this out publicly like he has certainly adds to your credibility. 
I'm thrilled how this thread has continued and flourished as if with a life of its own. I'm normally an interactive human in regard to the other carbon based lifeforms. I find the education and exposure of new life to folks to be a rewarding aspect of my life. I've been doing this for 30 odd years when I'd teach third and fourth graders life sciences as a long haired high school student. I remember one concerned parent went to the school principal and voiced concerns. He said I was doing as service to the students and that if the parent was truly concerned they should volunteer as an aid in the class. I was an active member in the Oregon Herpetological Society (president for 4 years). I lived off the outreach available with the shows and presentations we did because of the opportunity to educate people. Me, I like to be liked. I like people and I like people to like me. I'll educate the best I can but if someone starts getting short with me or disagreeable I just move on. The Forum is my only Internet Machine social interaction and I enjoy it quite a lot. The beauty of it is if I read a thread I don't "like" I don't have to get hung up on it.


----------



## AnimalLady

Cowboy_Ken said:


> No kidding here AnimalLady. You are truly part of the "cool kids crowd" and you should know that by now. But, having Tom point this out publicly like he has certainly adds to your credibility.
> I'm thrilled how this thread has continued and flourished as if with a life of its own. I'm normally an interactive human in regard to the other carbon based lifeforms. I find the education and exposure of new life to folks to be a rewarding aspect of my life. I've been doing this for 30 odd years when I'd teach third and fourth graders life sciences as a long haired high school student. I remember one concerned parent went to the school principal and voiced concerns. He said I was doing as service to the students and that if the parent was truly concerned they should volunteer as an aid in the class. I was an active member in the Oregon Herpetological Society (president for 4 years). I lived off the outreach available with the shows and presentations we did because of the opportunity to educate people. Me, I like to be liked. I like people and I like people to like me. I'll educate the best I can but if someone starts getting short with me or disagreeable I just move on. The Forum is my only Internet Machine social interaction and I enjoy it quite a lot. The beauty of it is if I read a thread I don't "like" I don't have to get hung up on it.


I feel special now ::blushes::

I certainly don't like to be hated, and I'm sure everyone likes to be liked to some degree.

From what I recall you don't ever come off sounding negative, so you're good there . 
And I agree with you, we aren't forced to reply or even read a post!


----------



## mike taylor

Yep ,just like mom always says ( if you have nothing nice to say say nothing at all ) ha-ha


----------



## Cowboy_Ken

mike taylor said:


> Yep ,just like mom always says ( if you have nothing nice to say say nothing at all ) ha-ha


Or…if you don't like what you're hearing, walk away.


----------



## Prairie Mom

mike taylor said:


> Yep ,just like mom always says


Did you just say my name!? What are you implying? Are you saying I don't say nice things?

Ha ha!! Sweet vengeance!

(sorry to clutter the thread, but Mike Taylor had it coming! )


----------



## mike taylor

You got me! You !!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Cowboy_Ken

Has this thread been closed by you bunch of no-it-alls ?


----------



## Aunt Caffy

I saw the subject on pictures of "inappropriate tortoise practices," and I opened it, thinking it was going to be a discussion of taking pictures of tortoises mating or tort genitals. I got to say that I was a little disappointed.


----------



## Cowboy_Ken

Aunt Caffy said:


> taking pictures of tortoises mating I must say that I'm a little disappointed.







@Aunt Caffy , I would really feel disappointed if you were to be left out.


----------



## Aunt Caffy

Cowboy_Ken said:


> View attachment 154471
> View attachment 154472
> View attachment 154473
> 
> @Aunt Caffy , I would really feel disappointed if you were to be left out.


I feel much better now. Thank you.


----------



## Cowboy_Ken

Aunt Caffy said:


> I feel much better now. Thank you.


I'm here to help.


----------



## Alaskamike

Looks like this thread has run its course and answered many questions. Certainly helped me both in the way I comment and reminds me to put qualifiers on photos that might give a new person ideas about dangerous practices. 

One thing that would help me , if I get a bit abrasive, or short, would be a PM from any member who notices it. Sometimes I know - and sometimes it is inadvertent or poor wording. 

I disagree about censorship at times , and really don't have sensitivities about euphemisms for words like penis or bottoms , but since I'm not a moderator , it " makes no never mind" , not my choice. I'll watch it. 

But, If children are old enough to read and understand these posts , a few slang words will not trip them up. Have you ever been on a playground ? They throw around much more offensive language than that. 

Good thread. Seems we need this every so often. 

Great forum you all have built over the years BTW.


----------



## Prairie Mom

Alaskamike said:


> Have you ever been on a playground ? They throw around much more offensive language than that.



Of course, you see and hear it all at parks. I only bring it up because the guideline for this specific site is "family friendly" with the intention of being open to "all age groups." If that were not the case, I wouldn't have said a word and can completely understand why many people wouldn't even notice or care. For me, just as we discuss and choose what we feel is age appropriate material for our kids, if the overall tone changed on this specific website, we'd simply avoid using it.

I do totally agree with you about how helpful this thread has been. I think a lot of really going points have been discussed.The biggest thing that I have taken from this thread is to go ahead and speak out more, but I will definitely be practicing "the sandwich approach." I really need the reminder to consider more that there are people behind the screens. My hope is that if they feel welcome and positive about coming here, that they'll stick around and learn to improve their animal care practices even if it takes longer than we would have liked.


----------



## Cowboy_Ken

Prairie Mom said:


> I do totally agree with you about how helpful this thread has been. I think a lot of really good points have been discussed.The biggest thing that I have taken from this thread is to go ahead and speak out more, but I will definitely be practicing "the sandwich approach." I really need the reminder to consider more that there are people behind the screens. My hope is that if they feel welcome and positive about coming here, that they'll stick around and learn to improve their animal care practices even if it takes longer than we would have liked.


I find what you say here to be most relevant. I try to close my welcomes with the, "soon you'll be helping others yourself." To ideally encourage more Forum reading and asking.


----------



## tartagon

I think the best approach is to point it out but with tact. If the goal is to help them avoid health issues with their pets, a tactful advice is the most appropriate response. Maybe you can let them know it can cause health issues but also compliment that their tortoise is beautiful/adorable?


----------



## Kennabear914

Alaskamike said:


> I've posted pics of my Sulcata next to my dog
> View attachment 151258
> 
> Two different type eating together
> View attachment 151259
> 
> 
> And my little Redfoot in the human pool
> View attachment 151260
> 
> 
> And I know somewhere there is a photo of my Sulcata with " strawberry face ".
> And pictures of my badly pyramided Redfoot.
> 
> It would not bother me if someone pointed out -
> Possible cross contamination
> Beware of dogs & torts together
> Chlorine is bad for torts.
> Fruit is bad for Sulcatas
> Pyramiding is caused by dehydration
> Etc.
> 
> Personally , I feel pretty confident in my practices , and am always willing to learn and change my mind.
> 
> What always takes me back a bit is when a new person comes here and asks for advice then argues about the advice. That is amazing.
> 
> In the short time I've been on TFO , I have seen a softening in the initial way advice is given - and I applaud that.
> 
> But I would be unhappy if it was not given. Or bad practices ignored.
> If some people get the a_ _ because their enclosures are not praised so be it. Teachable moments are sometimes short and opportunity lost.
> 
> Being a " bull dog" when it comes to best care practice is what I love about this forum. ( not that I'm calling you bull dogs Tom & Yvonne .... Will maybe .... )



My sully has been around my cats and dogs as well. What’s the harm if they don’t mind each other?


----------



## Yvonne G

Kennabear914 said:


> My sully has been around my cats and dogs as well. What’s the harm if they don’t mind each other?


Here's the harm (I've told this story before, but it bears repeating):

Mildred, an adult desert tortoise, lived with this older couple happily roaming the backyard and living in peace. One day the couple got a labrador pup. *The pup shared Mildred's yard and they lived there together for 15 years. *One summer the older couple went away on vacation and their grown son came over every so often to gather the mail, check the animals, water the plants. When the couple got home they found Mildred with one of her front legs chewed totally off, clear up to the shoulder.


----------



## Kennabear914

Yvonne G said:


> Here's the harm (I've told this story before, but it bears repeating):
> 
> Mildred, and adult desert tortoise, lived with this older couple happily roaming the backyard and living in peace. One day the couple got a labrador pup. The pup shared Mildred's yard and they lived there together for 15 years. One summer the older couple went away on vacation and their grown son came over every so often to gather the mail, check the animals, water the plants. When the couple got home they found Mildred with one of her front legs chewed totally off, clear up to the shoulder.



Omg that is horrible! I understand the danger in that sense but i’d never leave them alone together, always with supervision. They usually only see each other when I take Ollie out of his enclosure and let him roam around a little, but I only let him do that under supervision so


----------



## RosemaryDW

Zombie thread!


----------



## terryo

On Instagram there was a picture posted of a box turtle who was either chewed up or hit by a car...don't remember. The turtles shell was screwed together with these big screws...a couple on the top and 4 underneat . Then a wire was twisted around these big screws to hold the shell together. I was sick looking at it, but I didn't say anything. A while back I commented on something else this person did and I got a lot of backlash. Now if I see a situation that won't make a difference, no matter what I say, I just keep quiet.


----------



## Benjtort

While y’all are talking about tortoises eating fruit mine just sits there like we don’t like fruit


----------



## LoutheRussian

I joined this forum five or so years ago when I rescued/inherited my
Ex girlfriends Russian. When she left him at my house he was in a small cardboard box and nothing else. I had no idea what I was doing so I cut connected several other boxes together just to give him more space. If I hadn't stumbled across TFO I'd have been lost and Lou would have suffered for it. I asked a lot of questions some of which I get silly for not knowing any answer to. Everyone and I mean everyone was incredibly helpful and gently guided me through my beginning fazes of tort ownership. Everything from his enclosure, heat lamps, UV info down to his diet I was given suggestions corrections and when I needed it a firm and direct check of what I was doing wrong that could potentially bring harm to my tortoise. I was between jobs and broke at the time and one member even sent me a link to a $50 gift card to a tort supply store. I have learned so much from so many of the members here. I've seen people come on strong when correcting people and I've seen it gently put. I've seen positive and negative reactions to both approaches. I don't think there is a clear cut way to address those people we see doing things that aren't in the torts best interests but I have seen when the op gets defensive about things the people correcting them will often keep coming at them which continues to raise their walls. In my opinion when someone does not respond well to advise given then after one or two posts explaining why what they are doing is wrong then it may be time to tell them that you were only trying to help and that you suggest not just taking your word for it but to search the forum and read other similar posts. I know when I do that it leads me down a TFO rabbit hole where I've read and learned things I never would have known. I'm still a "newer" tort owner but I have gained so much knowledge from this forum that I have found myself able to help others and pass on advice here and in other groups I belong to.


----------



## Loni

I am an absolute newbie and have been working my way through all of the forums here since I found you and the knowledge shared here is amazing and appreciated. 

Personally, I do not have thin skin and if I am putting my tort at risk please feel free to roll up a magazine and smack me upside the head. Public is fine. If someone else can learn from it as well...perfect. I will be posting a lot of pictures and descriptions here as I am concerned that the prevailing recommendation is for newbies to not purchase hatchlings. In western Canada there is not an option to purchase older animals that I have found so I will be actively seeking guidance.

However, generally speaking, people need to feel approval balanced with constructive criticism. If the only responses they ever get are negative, they are going to feel unwelcome and leave. I try to find something to praise, question the dangerous behaviour and offer clear reasons for my questioning the practice, not the person.


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## ZEROPILOT

I've grown numb to repeating suggestions meant to help and then being "corrected" by the O.P.
I thank members such as @Tom for the replies that keep trying to help, over and over again.
Some new members take offense and leave the forum. But clearly, some are also helped.
That's the best that we can hope for.


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## Morty'sMamma

G-stars said:


> I think it should be pointed it. Some people know the risks and still take them.
> While others do it out of ignorance. Once they are informed they can then take the risk if so desired. I like how straight forward @Tom is, some people may not. But the intention is always good. I would rather someone be straight forward with me or "harsh" if it means that my animals will benefit from it, some don't like constructive criticism.
> 
> "Don't regret what you have done, regret what you should have done"


Straightforward is great but I think harsh is a little different. I think it’s important to let owners/keepers know how to properly care for their pets. It’s also important to let them know if they are placing them in harms way. An ounce of prevention.....


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## wellington

ZEROPILOT said:


> I've grown numb to repeating suggestions meant to help and then being "corrected" by the O.P.
> I thank members such as @Tom for the replies that keep trying to help, over and over again.
> Some new members take offense and leave the forum. But clearly, some are also helped.
> That's the best that we can hope for.[/QUOTE
> Like Tom I'm straight forward. Care more for the voiceless animal then the human. I have gotten more thank you's then kiss offs. In my experience with correcting people face too face, they don't like my delivery but they learned a lot and it saved an animal and with an embarrassed posture they apologized for their behavior. I think the same happens here, except they can hide behind their computer and we can't see their embarrassment or guilt. So, they just get defensive and push back. However, I would bet everything they are changing things and lurking too learn more of the wrong they are doing. They just don't have too face us in person so they/some don't feel the need to apologize.


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## Turtulas-Len

Is this inappropriate ?


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## TechnoCheese

I actually have the three-set of Sulcata info and Russian Care Sheet+Beginner Mistakes saves to my “text replacement”





Because who has time to copy and paste each individual link?


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## wellington

Turtulas-Len said:


> Is this inappropriate ?
> View attachment 242576


Very and shame on you, a veteran member should know better


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## TriciaStringer

*Proverbs 12:15 *
15 The way of fools seems right to them,
but the wise listen to advice.


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## Tom

TriciaStringer said:


> *Proverbs 12:15 *
> 15 The way of fools seems right to them,
> but the wise listen to advice.


I'm both of those. What do I do now?


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## drew54

How did I miss this thread?! This is essentially what my recent post was about. 

You could always post a pic of a dead tort vs a live healthy tort with captions that say "your way" and "the right way" in response to angry people and then they can choose. A bit harsh I know.


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