# Pet Store Conversation



## Tom (May 17, 2012)

I just had an interesting conversation with the lady who runs the pet store near me. She had some decent looking baby sulcatas and they were actually on damp orchid bark instead of rabbit pellets, but that's another topic...

I asked her how much she was asking for the baby sulcatas and she told me that "the price has gone way up lately because nobody is breeding them anymore". She told me that they have been very hard to find and nobody has them right now. She used to charge $179 for them and is now getting $225 due to the shortage. Hmm... Very interesting.


----------



## wellington (May 17, 2012)

WOW, now that's a line.


----------



## dmmj (May 17, 2012)

Well I doubt she would say that they were cheap and plentiful, besides what she charges and what she gets are 2 different things.


----------



## jeffbens0n (May 17, 2012)

That's a good deal, I would've bought 10!


----------



## Laura (May 17, 2012)

times may be changing... maybe less will die? we can hope... as people learn and get educated.... evolution...


----------



## Mert (May 17, 2012)

Look up on craigslist santa ynez, ca. Theres hatchlings a month old for 50 dollars.


----------



## Michael Bird (May 17, 2012)

A small pet shop near me charges $350-$450 for sulcata hatchlings, depending on their age/size. I asked if they would be willing to buy some from me for $300 (so they still make a profit) and I got some fairly unfriendly looks from the guy in the shop that actually has the breeding parents of the hatchlings they sell. Then I suggested they go online and get hatchlings from a dedicated and reliable breeder for about $100 each so they can set more reasonable prices and I was told to leave the store.

I didn't feel too bad about being kicked out since everything in that shop is significantly overpriced ($89 for ReptiSun MVB bulbs, for example) but while I was being sarcastic, I really was trying to help them see that their prices are WAY too high...


----------



## KimandKarasi (May 17, 2012)

Michael Bird said:


> A small pet shop near me charges $350-$450 for sulcata hatchlings, depending on their age/size. I asked if they would be willing to buy some from me for $300 (so they still make a profit) and I got some fairly unfriendly looks from the guy in the shop that actually has the breeding parents of the hatchlings they sell. Then I suggested they go online and get hatchlings from a dedicated and reliable breeder for about $100 each so they can set more reasonable prices and I was told to leave the store.
> 
> I didn't feel too bad about being kicked out since everything in that shop is significantly overpriced ($89 for ReptiSun MVB bulbs, for example) but while I was being sarcastic, I really was trying to help them see that their prices are WAY too high...



I think most places are just trying to squeeze what they can from buyers and have no reguard for what's right. I think they just didnt want their other customers hering you speaking the truth is what it was  lol! I bought mine for 300, but I was just trying to save the poor thing from those lunatics.


----------



## Tom (May 17, 2012)

This store is always wayyyyyyy over priced. That was not what I found interesting. What I found interesting is that, according to her, there is a scarcity of them right now and the demand is high enough to drive the prices up. I've also had my regular buyers tell me that they will take as many as I can possibly get right now.


----------



## Jacob (May 17, 2012)

Very Interesting.


----------



## tortadise (May 17, 2012)

That is very weird you posted this thread. I'm working up in Oklahoma city for a few days an decided to pet store browse. I found a shop that was actually very knowledgable for once. They had the same story. Their babies were decently taken care of but were 249. I was shocked but they said same thing very small supply of them. I wonder if commercial breeders aren't producing many anymore Tom. All I know is I kinda like tht they are priced higher because it forces people in my opinion to do more research while they are saving up for desired tort. Maybe a partial positive perhaps. Who knows.


----------



## l0velesly (May 17, 2012)

The higher price can be a good thing. People won't buy them on impulse anymore. Too many people are buying them and not knowing much about their care.


----------



## StudentoftheReptile (May 18, 2012)

Our LPS is very high-priced as well...on some things.

Up until maybe 3 yrs ago, ALL ball pythons were $149.99. I finally let on to my boss that PETsMART sold them for 79.99, and he dropped them down. All Uromastyx lizards are $149.99. Pretty much any tortoise is $199.99 (even Russians). Large constrictors were like $400+ (for normals...whether they're red-tails, Burmese, retics, etc.). If it was a boa or python over 6 ft, it had a ridiculous price on it.

One thing that always boggled my mind was the price on adult iguanas. $199.99. And keep in mind that most of the larger animals were donations to the store (i.e. virtually no cost to the store except food & housing). More astonishing is that adult iggies sold like hotcakes! It was rare that one would remain in the store for a whole week. People would always purchase them at that price!
-----

Anyway, I guess my point was that if pet stores want to charge outrageous prices for their herps, and they can regularly get customers to buy at those prices, more power to them.



lushcious said:


> The higher price can be a good thing. People won't buy them on impulse anymore. Too many people are buying them and not knowing much about their care.



Ditto. With few exceptions, I don't really consider pet stores part of the herp community honestly. We herpers know where to buy the critters we like for a LOT less (expos, online, swap meets, etc.). And like Lushcious said, maybe the raised retail prices are a good thing. Deters some people from buying them.


----------



## yagyujubei (May 18, 2012)

I recently saw a lot of 20 hatchling sulcatas on fauna or kingsnake for $400. So, $20 each.


----------



## Baoh (May 18, 2012)

yagyujubei said:


> I recently saw a lot of 20 hatchling sulcatas on fauna or kingsnake for $400. So, $20 each.



I saw that on FC, too. Possibly plus shipping, I think, but I do not remember. From my perspective, I see no lack of availability. A lot gets scooped up this week and there is another or several the next week or two. In between, were one to look at the market, things would seem like a situation of low supply, but that is a typical valley.

I sell lots of mine, too, because it cuts down on my risk. Easier to sell a lot for a couple grand or so than to go through the risk and individual hassle of selling each little one for under fifty or, if locally and without shipping, as high as a hundred each.

Suppose 100 normal hatchlings in a hypothetical lot. 

$100 individual local x 100 = $10,000, but with a lot of work, added fuel cost, management of ads, dealing with emails from people who are not really interested in buying, and so on.

$45 individual internet x 100 = $4500 with even more work than locally to deal with shipping.

$35 individual in lot x 100 = $3500 with one transaction, maybe a couple hours of time, and one ad to manage.

I have a "real" job, so tortoises just kind of a add a bonus to things. If I had no job, obviously, the $10k option may then become necessity. However, selling in lots tends to cut down on a lot of the busy-work. Especially as it relates to individual sales on the internet. 

Anyhoo, if I need/want hatchlings, I can find them for my purposes.


Oh, and I can also sell lots to vendors in areas of the country where the climate is more suitable to having the tortoises survive in the hands of less knowledgeable keepers.


----------



## Neal (May 18, 2012)

It is very hard, almost impossible to find hatchling sulcatas right now in large quantities where I am at. But it should pick up in the coming weeks.


----------



## Momof4 (May 18, 2012)

I like the higher prices in the pet stores as stated above. People won't impulse buy & the Sulcata's may not end up in rescues or living in horrible conditions like we all have seen on Craig's List. 

I think if a person is willing to research for breeders than most likely they have done their homework and know exactly what they are getting into. 

Are they really that hard to find right now? Interesting.


----------



## GeoTerraTestudo (May 18, 2012)

Tom said:


> I just had an interesting conversation with the lady who runs the pet store near me. She had some decent looking baby sulcatas and they were actually on damp orchid bark instead of rabbit pellets, but that's another topic...
> 
> I asked her how much she was asking for the baby sulcatas and she told me that "the price has gone way up lately because nobody is breeding them anymore". She told me that they have been very hard to find and nobody has them right now. She used to charge $179 for them and is now getting $225 due to the shortage. Hmm... Very interesting.



Hmm ... that is interesting. And, IMHO, this is good news. Sulcatas are so abundant in the tortoise hobby because they are so robust and fecund. It's not because they are easy to care for, at least not beyond infancy, because they are so big and strong. Maybe that last aspect is finally catching up with the first two?


----------



## Katherine (May 18, 2012)

It is not suprising that a pet store (or many) have overpriced animals, they are a store after all and with some exceptions most stores are more concerned with their bottom line than anything else. It IS suprising to hear others (Neal?) report that Sulcatas may be hard to come by in some areas right now. Probably good news for the animals though, as in abundance the price and scrutiny goes down and they are increasingly likely to be scooped by misinformed or noncommitted owners. If you have to go out of your way to locate a sulcata, odds are you will have done some research and know what you are signing up for before hand. This whole thread is just interesting.


----------



## Neal (May 18, 2012)

I don't think it has anything to do with breeders not producing as much, or even the market moving towards equilibrium. It's more likely that the hatching season is just getting underway, which is really the same time of year around the country. 

Give it a few more weeks and the story will be quite different. I actually just took a look at Craigslist right after I posted above (something I haven't done in a couple of weeks) and it looks like there are a few adds popping up for hatchling sulcatas. I've spoken with a ton of sulcata breeders in my area over the last several weeks and they are all saying the same thing, which is that in the coming weeks they are going to have more sulcatas than they know what to do with.


----------



## yagyujubei (May 18, 2012)

Currently, there are 27 ads on Kingsnake selling sulcatas.


----------



## reticguy76 (May 18, 2012)

wow, i have never seen such high costs for sulcatas. the most expensive ive seen here in az (reptile stores included) is like 80 bucks. most have been like 40-50. 

but stores also double and even triple their wholesale prices.

couple stores are selling normal bally python bbaies for like 100 bucks. they are like 15-20 bucks breeder direct/wholesale. 

i never buy animals retail, unless they are close to the "going rate" so to speak


----------



## ALDABRAMAN (May 18, 2012)

No shortage here in Florida, I know of some for $25 each.


----------



## CLMoss (May 19, 2012)

Question... What about the four inch rule? Would a pet store be able to sell a hatchling? I don't believe that pet stores can do that here in New Your State? Maybe the store owner was talking about the lack of four inch sulcatas? Just asking...


----------



## dmmj (May 19, 2012)

4 inch rule applies to pet stores, but it is very very rarely enforced.


----------



## Tom (May 19, 2012)

Nobody abides by the 4" rule. Most of the people who are charged wit enforcing it don't even know where its written or what it says. I have asked many of them.

Besides that, all those hatchlings sold at pet stores are sold strictly for "educational" purposes, don't you know.


----------



## Katherine (May 20, 2012)

dmmj said:


> 4 inch rule applies to pet stores, but it is very very rarely enforced.



Four inch rule applies to everyone



Tom said:


> Besides that, all those hatchlings sold at pet stores are sold strictly for "educational" purposes, don't you know.


----------



## Tom (May 20, 2012)

katherine said:


> dmmj said:
> 
> 
> > 4 inch rule applies to pet stores, but it is very very rarely enforced.
> ...





This is open to legal interpretation, but I don't think so. My impression is that it pertains to businesses and not small time hobbiests.


----------



## Katherine (May 20, 2012)

Tom said:


> This is open to legal interpretation, but I don't think so. My impression is that it pertains to businesses and not small time hobbiests.



Well I like your impression better than mine! It does refer to 'commercial and public distribution' which I guess one could argue did not apply to them. Tried to link to the FDA page where it is posted but was unable to do, maybe someone more tech savvy can post it so people can read it and form their own informed opinions.


----------



## jaizei (May 20, 2012)

katherine said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > This is open to legal interpretation, but I don't think so. My impression is that it pertains to businesses and not small time hobbiests.
> ...



http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=1240.62

I do not think the law is open to interpretation; however, who is a hobbyist vs who isn't is arguable. If someone is selling their hatchlings, as themselves, it is easier to say that they are within the exception versus someone who forms a business entity and makes a website to sell their turtles. Even if it is only part time and they have a 'real job', it's hard to say that they aren't selling them as a business. 

There is also this: http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dailys/03/May03/052903/98p-0680-pdn0001-01-vol1.pdf


> Further, 21 CFR 1240.62 does not prohibit adult hobbyists from
> owning or making an occasional sale to another hobbyist, as long as such sales are not so
> frequent as to make the seller a dealer.








As for the OP, I haven't noticed any change in availability of sulcatas around here, and in the pet stores they are the usual $109 - $129 they've been for the last few years.


----------



## expo tort (May 20, 2012)

Strange. Here in so cal I regularly see them for 50 dollars a pop a discount of up to 100 dollars off if you buy multiple.


----------



## drgnfly2265 (May 25, 2012)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> No shortage here in Florida, I know of some for $25 each.



I agree. The reptile show that I was just at this past weekend had baby sulcatas at like 5 different booths. They were cheap and I think I seen one person walking around with one that they just bought. Maybe it's the location that the price is higher?


----------



## dmmj (May 25, 2012)

No business in the business of selling is gonna say that item A is plentiful , scarcity or rumors of scarcity, means higher prices, is this the actual case in this pet store, I don't know but it would be pretty dumb to say " oh yah sure I got lots of them". 
4 inch rules does not apply to hobbyist and private breeders, only businesses.
Sorry for going OT


----------



## Laura (May 25, 2012)

like 'kitten season' pretty soon there will be so many, and no homes for them.. yet again... and shelters will have no choice but to........:-(
it would be nice to think that the 'breeders' of sulcatas have stopped selling to pet stores, so they had control and say over who bought them and the education they receive before purchase.. but Im sure that is not the case either...


----------



## Tom (May 25, 2012)

Laura said:


> like 'kitten season' pretty soon there will be so many, and no homes for them.. yet again... and shelters will have no choice but to........:-(
> it would be nice to think that the 'breeders' of sulcatas have stopped selling to pet stores, so they had control and say over who bought them and the education they receive before purchase.. but Im sure that is not the case either...



What are you talking about? Baby sulcatas don't end up at shelters. Even the big ones hardly ever do, and when they do on that rare occasion they are adopted within hours of becoming available.


----------



## CLMoss (May 26, 2012)

I had a hard time getting a Star tortoise mailed to me from the companies that I reach out to (I had to find a local breeder). I just read from Rept-Mart website that you are not even allowed to keep a tortoise in New York State if it is not 4 inches... Scary! I have never seen a baby Sulcatas... So sad.


----------



## Neal (May 26, 2012)

Tom said:


> What are you talking about? Baby sulcatas don't end up at shelters. Even the big ones hardly ever do, and when they do on that rare occasion they are adopted within hours of becoming available.



Unless you're in Arizona where hundreds of them go...and never leave.


----------



## Tom (May 26, 2012)

Neal said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > What are you talking about? Baby sulcatas don't end up at shelters. Even the big ones hardly ever do, and when they do on that rare occasion they are adopted within hours of becoming available.
> ...



You are saying that hundreds of baby sulcatas are turned into local AZ shelters and euthanized? This is the first I've ever heard of that.


----------



## Neal (May 26, 2012)

I was referring to your statement that the big ones hardly make it to the shelters...although babies do get turned in from time to time. 

By never leave I don't mean they are euthanized, I mean that the shelter hoards them and never lets them go. We've discussed this on several threads.


----------



## Tom (May 26, 2012)

Oh you are talking about that "rescue" that sells the babies.

I was talking about our local govern,ent run county animal shelter. The one that takes in dogs and cats and stuff.


----------



## JeffG (May 26, 2012)

Neal is right. Here in Arizona there are probably hundreds currently in rescues. They might not be officially _government_ run rescues, but they are the closest thing we have here. 

You are right too Tom. These animals could be placed in good homes, but the "rescues" seem to be more interested in making a profit on them than finding them good homes.


----------



## LeaderLeprechaun (May 30, 2012)

The pet store down the street was selling a sulcata for $125 which is cheaper than the red foot i bout for $145


----------



## CLMoss (May 30, 2012)

JeffG said:


> Neal is right. Here in Arizona there are probably hundreds currently in rescues. They might not be officially _government_ run rescues, but they are the closest thing we have here.
> 
> You are right too Tom. These animals could be placed in good homes, but the "rescues" seem to be more interested in making a profit on them than finding them good homes.



Rescues should NEVER breed and sell baby animals. It is a conflict of interest.


----------



## Neal (May 30, 2012)

CLMoss said:


> JeffG said:
> 
> 
> > Neal is right. Here in Arizona there are probably hundreds currently in rescues. They might not be officially _government_ run rescues, but they are the closest thing we have here.
> ...



The specific "rescue" we're talking about refers to themselves as a sanctuary...in my opinion, that's a completely different thing than a shelter or an actual rescue. I don't see where the conflict of interest would exist.


----------



## StudentoftheReptile (May 30, 2012)

Neal said:


> CLMoss said:
> 
> 
> > JeffG said:
> ...



I guess I think of a sanctuary as a place where tortoises can live out the rest of their lives in peace and in general good care and health. One could argue that being forced to live in large groups in a relatively confined space (=stress?) would not be that healthy. I'm not certain of the specifics of the place in question, but just giving food for thought. If they are breeding animals, they are either doing so deliberately, which case they are in it for profit and I would call that a breeding business, not a sanctuary. If any breeding is done "by accident," maybe they need to re-evaluate their housing conditions for the adult tortoises, because I would imagine the reason they became a "sanctuary" in the first place was because of all the unwanted tortoises out there. They certainly wouldn't to be putting more out there...just seems like a conflict of interest to me.


----------



## Neal (May 30, 2012)

OK, maybe I do see that a conflict of interest exists...but I guess it all depends on their opinions and the actual manner of how they obtained their animals.


----------



## dmmj (May 30, 2012)

This rescue we are talking about i s it the one that only sells males by the pound, and breeds the females?


----------



## Neal (May 30, 2012)

Yes.


----------



## CLMoss (May 30, 2012)

Sanctuary, well thats a different story! Some of them could be frighting... I would sooner put an animal down than subject them to some of the sanctuaries here in the northeast. Many start with the best intentions (501c3, I believe), then become hoarders, charging large "donations" to care for your unwanted pet. Many of these pet would do much better if they were re-homed; however, santuaries don't want to take the time to find new homes for these amimals. I have seen way too many so-called sanctuaries and their owners to feel comfortable about them. Those who want to put their unwanted pet into a place like that really should do research about who and what they are. Questions like; how much funding to you have and for how long, is there a vet on staff, who is going to take over the sanctuary in 50 years, etc. Tortoises and parrots live a long time. Also, interested party must do a walk thru of the sanctuary and property. A good sanctuary is few and far between. I believe that unwanted pet should be rehomed asap so that they (good rescues) can take in more pets in need of loving homes. Please remember that I am talking about the northeast sanctuaries.


----------



## StudentoftheReptile (May 31, 2012)

CLMoss said:


> Sanctuary, well thats a different story! Some of them could be frighting... I would sooner put an animal down than subject them to some of the sanctuaries here in the northeast. Many start with the best intentions (501c3, I believe), then become hoarders, charging large "donations" to care for your unwanted pet. Many of these pet would do much better if they were re-homed; however, santuaries don't want to take the time to find new homes for these amimals. I have seen way too many so-called sanctuaries and their owners to feel comfortable about them. Those who want to put their unwanted pet into a place like that really should do research about who and what they are. Questions like; how much funding to you have and for how long, is there a vet on staff, who is going to take over the sanctuary in 50 years, etc. Tortoises and parrots live a long time. Also, interested party must do a walk thru of the sanctuary and property. A good sanctuary is few and far between. I believe that unwanted pet should be rehomed asap so that they (good rescues) can take in more pets in need of loving homes. Please remember that I am talking about the northeast sanctuaries.



Rescue, shelter, sanctuary...whatever label they go by, I have seen the same thing happen with all of them: they basically turn into animal hoarders with 501(c)(3) status. Now I'm aware that there are some rescues out there that don't generally practice rehoming the animals they take in (maybe that's what make them a "sanctuary"...I dunno [shrugs]), and that's fine, I suppose. But the bottom line is that the lives of the animals rescued or received are improved or better than where they were previously. Otherwise, I think the proprieters of the shelter have fallen short of their goal. After all, if I had a snake or turtle that I could no longer care for myself and didn't just want to sell it off for cash, and genuinely wanted to make sure it went to someone who would at least take as good care of it as I did...I would hope that a rescue or "sanctuary" would be that place, right? But if the snake is just thrown into an empty tank in a back bedroom or the tortoise is just plopped in the yard with a dozen others...then personally, I don't consider that a sanctuary or rescue at all. 

Perhaps my standards are too high, but there it is. Our local reptile rescue takes EVERY rescued animal to the vet for a check-up and we make sure it is healthy before putting it up for adoption. We occasionally have to turn away animals (mostly large iguanas and big snakes) if we're out of room. A lot of "rescues" do not do this.


----------

