# The End Of Pyramiding



## Tom

I thought a lot about what to name this thread. I intend for it to go on for several years, so I had to pick something fitting. So be careful how you reply to this thread, as it will be read by many for a long time to come.

One way or another, the following will be one more nail in the coffin for pyramiding in our captive raised tortoises. Either these babies will grow smooth or they won't. If they do grow smooth then we will all know that humidity and hydration is the key. If they don't grow smooth, then we will know that there is more to it than just humidity and hydration and further experimentation will be necessary. It is my goal to end pyramiding forever. Credit must be given to Richard Fife as the one who put this idea in my head. This is his discovery. I'm only testing his theory here, in public view.

I will post pics here of all milestones and at least monthly, so that everyone can watch their growth. I'll use the same scale and tape measure on the same counter to keep it all consistent. 

I'll be raising these new babies the same way, with the same diet, the same set-up, same temps, in the same room, on the same ranch, with the same outdoor sunning enclosures, the same supplements in the same quantities, as their parents, my older, pyramided ones. The only thing different will be humidity and hydration. They'll get daily warm water soaks, frequent carapace mistings, damp substrate, humid hide boxes and drinking water always available. Outdoors, their sunning/exercise enclosures will get a thorough wet down each time I put them in there.

This is Mr. Man. Pipped on 5-15-2010. He's still in the brood box absorbing the remainder of his yolk sac.
My digital caliper decided to stop working despite battery replacement so I'm having to estimate length using a tape measure. He's right around 5cm and 35 grams.















This is Dimple. He started trying to bust out of his shell on 5-12-2010. I helped him get through the leathery inner membrane on 5-14-2010 and he stuck his head out on 5-16-2010. He's also 5cm, but only 32 grams. He's much less active than Mr. Man at this point. He's also still absorbing his yolk sack.






Here they are together in the brood box with the lid removed. Room temp is 80-85. Their enclosure is ready for them, I'm just waiting for them to absorb the rest of their yolk sacks and start eating.


----------



## RascalDesertTort

Yay! I'm excited for this! GL


----------



## dreadyA

Your little ones are stunnning. Such dedication Tom. Can't wait for next months pictures


----------



## DeanS

Tom...he's f**king gorgeous and I'm very curious how this experiment (and this thread) will turn out...and now I have to figure out whether to add my findings to this thread or your previous pyramiding thread...which will also be around forever


----------



## Maggie Cummings

Geeze Tom, I'm beginning to think you're a bit obsessed with this. 

Don't forget that a good varied diet and lots of exercise are also involved in stopping or preventing pyramiding. Yes, humidity and hydration are important but on an equal basis with them is exercise and a good varied diet. I believe three things are necessary and all are equal...humidity, a good varied diet with mostly grasses and weeds leafs and things like that and a lot of exercise...
In the wild tortoises walk for miles daily looking for food. In captivity our tortoise don't have to look for food. I put off feeding them in the morning and watch them pace back and forth waiting for food. After they eat they go in a hide and sleep. So...I believe in holding off the food kind of forcing them to pace and get exercise. I also put all my inside animals outside at every given opportunity as sun is also involved here but I am not quite sure if it's needed as much as the other three...just my experience and opinion...


----------



## Tom

maggie3fan said:


> Geeze Tom, I'm beginning to think you're a bit obsessed with this.
> 
> Don't forget that a good varied diet and lots of exercise are also involved in stopping or preventing pyramiding. Yes, humidity and hydration are important but on an equal basis with them is exercise and a good varied diet. I believe three things are necessary and all are equal...humidity, a good varied diet with mostly grasses and weeds leafs and things like that and a lot of exercise...
> In the wild tortoises walk for miles daily looking for food. In captivity our tortoise don't have to look for food. I put off feeding them in the morning and watch them pace back and forth waiting for food. After they eat they go in a hide and sleep. So...I believe in holding off the food kind of forcing them to pace and get exercise. I also put all my inside animals outside at every given opportunity as sun is also involved here but I am not quite sure if it's needed as much as the other three...just my experience and opinion...



Obsessed? Who, me?!

Thanks Maggie. While I wholeheartedly agree that good diet and exercise play very important roles in maintaining and raising a healthy tortoise, but I question how much they have to do with pyramiding for two reasons. Reason #1: I've personally seen sulcatas raised on a poor diet and/or in small inadequate cages that were totally smooth, presumably because they were in a very humid environment. Reason #2: I've seen lots and lot of totoises, like mine, that had a great diet, huge indoor and outdoor pens that they spent a lot of time walking around in, still pyramid. Presumably because they were intentionally, mistakenly, kept dry. I hear what you are saying; that it takes all three, but I've seen otherwise.

However, I think I'm going to have to take your word for it, because I am not ever going to raise a tortoise in a tiny cage with a poor diet to prove that one can be grown smooth under those conditions as long as there is adequate humidity. I have seen this done, and while I was happy to see smooth shells, I was not happy to see tortoises kept in such a manner. I tried to tactfully talk to these folks about a bigger cage and better diet, but I'm not sure it did any good.


----------



## DeanS

Hey Tom...Are they going in your homemade 'rack system' that you showed in your 'other' thread?


----------



## terryo

This is a post from Andy Highfield at Tortoise Trust after I said that I thought Pio was smooth because of all the humidity he grew up in.
Terry,

The diet you are using is excellent and I would not expect to see poor bone development or "pyramiding" on such a regime - regardless of environmental conditions. 

On this topic of humidity affecting bone growth, there is NO serious scientific evidence for this whatsoever, and furthermore, the single piece of published "research" that those who promulgate such misinformation rely upon is deeply, deeply flawed. Let me put it this way. There are thousands of people (apparently) who believe that Adolph Hitler is still alive and was take to a secret base on the moon using flying saucers built by Nazi scientists ( ) They believe this passionately. Oh, and the moon is not airless - it has an atmosphere like Earth. NASA know this, but keep it secret so that "other countries" will not go there ( ). Everyone who disagrees is part of the great New World Order conspiracy or is simply a gullible fool. It is quite easy to get such nonsense accepted as fact, especially on the Internet where you have a lot of very vocal people spreading myths and "facts" they barely understand.

Fact: The biology of bone growth (and pathologies) is very well understood. Tortoises are no different than any other animal. The same rules apply.
Fact: Rapid growth is a key factor in all nutritionally related developmental bone pathologies.
Fact: Excess protein stimulates high growth rates.

If you control growth, and ensure adequate serum (blood) D3 and trace element levels the bone will develop correctly, at an optimum density. There will be no deformity. It cannot happen.

The whole "humidity" issue is a total red herring. It is unscientific, illogical, and unfortunately, leads many people to make fatal mistakes. Sadly, the good old Internet is the perfect place for such anti-science myths to spread like a nasty disease. 

Andy


----------



## Tom

DeanS said:


> Hey Tom...Are they going in your homemade 'rack system' that you showed in your 'other' thread?



Yes, but since I'm only going to have two or three right now, I'm just going to put them all together and raise this batch the same as I always have, except for humidity. I've got some more coming and they will go in the other two tubs. One tub will have a heat pad instead of over head lighting and the other tub will get a heavy Mazuri diet something like 2-4 days a week. These initial two or three tortoises will show me what I need to know, but I want to do the others just to learn. Plus, its really cool to have more sulcatas around. It will also demonstrate, to a degree, that as long as they have humidity, they won't pyramid, even under a variety of conditions.


----------



## chadk

terryo said:


> This is a post from Andy Highfield at Tortoise Trust after I said that I thought Pio was smooth because of all the humidity he grew up in.
> Terry,
> 
> The diet you are using is excellent and I would not expect to see poor bone development or "pyramiding" on such a regime - regardless of environmental conditions.
> 
> On this topic of humidity affecting bone growth, there is NO serious scientific evidence for this whatsoever, and furthermore, the single piece of published "research" that those who promulgate such misinformation rely upon is deeply, deeply flawed. Let me put it this way. There are thousands of people (apparently) who believe that Adolph Hitler is still alive and was take to a secret base on the moon using flying saucers built by Nazi scientists ( ) They believe this passionately. Oh, and the moon is not airless - it has an atmosphere like Earth. NASA know this, but keep it secret so that "other countries" will not go there ( ). Everyone who disagrees is part of the great New World Order conspiracy or is simply a gullible fool. It is quite easy to get such nonsense accepted as fact, especially on the Internet where you have a lot of very vocal people spreading myths and "facts" they barely understand.
> 
> Fact: The biology of bone growth (and pathologies) is very well understood. Tortoises are no different than any other animal. The same rules apply.
> Fact: Rapid growth is a key factor in all nutritionally related developmental bone pathologies.
> Fact: Excess protein stimulates high growth rates.
> 
> If you control growth, and ensure adequate serum (blood) D3 and trace element levels the bone will develop correctly, at an optimum density. There will be no deformity. It cannot happen.
> 
> The whole "humidity" issue is a total red herring. It is unscientific, illogical, and unfortunately, leads many people to make fatal mistakes. Sadly, the good old Internet is the perfect place for such anti-science myths to spread like a nasty disease.
> 
> Andy



My little sully was raised on spring mix and good calc+vit supplimentation. Yet he was severly hindered in his growth (much smaller than he should have been) and had very bad pyramiding.

He was kept in a 40gal glass aquarium with a hot basking bulb and a UVB tube light. There was just about zero humidity. He got exercise out of the tank regularly, spring mix for the main diet, and UVB. But raised as a hatchling with no thought to humidity.

So was he cronically dehydrated and that was the issue? Not sure. But I do know that now (for the last year) he has a much bigger water dish he can acually wade in, he has moist substrate and humid hides. And he has shown drastic improvements in his over all health - doubling in size and new growth is much healthier.


----------



## Tom

terryo said:


> This is a post from Andy Highfield at Tortoise Trust after I said that I thought Pio was smooth because of all the humidity he grew up in.
> Terry,
> 
> The diet you are using is excellent and I would not expect to see poor bone development or "pyramiding" on such a regime - regardless of environmental conditions.
> 
> On this topic of humidity affecting bone growth, there is NO serious scientific evidence for this whatsoever, and furthermore, the single piece of published "research" that those who promulgate such misinformation rely upon is deeply, deeply flawed. Let me put it this way. There are thousands of people (apparently) who believe that Adolph Hitler is still alive and was take to a secret base on the moon using flying saucers built by Nazi scientists ( ) They believe this passionately. Oh, and the moon is not airless - it has an atmosphere like Earth. NASA know this, but keep it secret so that "other countries" will not go there ( ). Everyone who disagrees is part of the great New World Order conspiracy or is simply a gullible fool. It is quite easy to get such nonsense accepted as fact, especially on the Internet where you have a lot of very vocal people spreading myths and "facts" they barely understand.
> 
> Fact: The biology of bone growth (and pathologies) is very well understood. Tortoises are no different than any other animal. The same rules apply.
> Fact: Rapid growth is a key factor in all nutritionally related developmental bone pathologies.
> Fact: Excess protein stimulates high growth rates.
> 
> If you control growth, and ensure adequate serum (blood) D3 and trace element levels the bone will develop correctly, at an optimum density. There will be no deformity. It cannot happen.
> 
> The whole "humidity" issue is a total red herring. It is unscientific, illogical, and unfortunately, leads many people to make fatal mistakes. Sadly, the good old Internet is the perfect place for such anti-science myths to spread like a nasty disease.
> 
> Andy



Andy is wrong. At least for sulcatas. People like him cannot explain how my (and many other peoples) tortoises pyramided. My biggest 12 year old is only 40 lbs. I did not over feed. They did not experience rapid growth and they did not get excessive protein. They've had an excellent, varied diet with no animal protein and they were out in the Southern CA almost every day year round. I kept them indoors on cold days, but this was rarely ever for more than a few days in a row. If daily sunshine for several hours does not "ensure adequate serum (blood) D3", then what does? They got calcium and vitamin supplementation in moderation and their enclosure, both indoors and out were huge.

He says the same thing I used to say. I used to say until I kept getting pyramided tortoises time after time, following that advice. He disregards obvious evidence and the Austrian study was not flawed at all, much less deeply, deeply. Even if the Austrian study didn't exist, there is still the small matter of thousands of peoples personal experience. How come sulcatas raised outdoors in the Southern (humid) States tend to be smooth, while the ones raised in desert areas tend to be pyramided. This is pretty universal. I've seen it with my own eyes. What about Richard Fife in AZ. He couldn't raise a smooth one either until he discovered the humidity thing. He feeds his Mazuri and greens like a lot of people and his babies grow up consistently smooth.

Fact: I've raised dozens of tortoises of several species and they all pyramided, despite doing everything that people like Andy say ought to be done.
Fact: With my own eyes, I've seen people raising torts in direct conflict with what Andy says and they are totally smooth. I've only seen this in very humid areas. I've never seen this in arid areas.

In a few months time we will have the answer. If I'm wrong I will humbly eat my words and apologize.


----------



## CGKeith

I have only had one Sulcata, as a foster for less than a year. So my experience and time frame are limited. 
It was kept very warm and dry, but misted daily (direct on shell). Fed a mixture of items from my garden which is basically the Mediterranean seed mix along with Bermuda grass, grape leaves, hibiscus leaves and flowers and mulberry leaves.
Here are before and after pics to show growth.


----------



## Tom

CGKeith said:


> I have only had one Sulcata, as a foster for less than a year. So my experience and time frame are limited.
> It was kept very warm and dry, but misted daily (direct on shell). Fed a mixture of items from my garden which is basically the Mediterranean seed mix along with Bermuda grass, grape leaves, hibiscus leaves and flowers and mulberry leaves.



Interesting that you should say this. I had a conversation with Richard Fife a couple of weeks ago and one of the things he told me about, was spraying the carapace. He felt like that alone would prevent pyramiding, but was not ready to go public with it, until he had done some more research on it.

Yours looks very young in the first pic. Do you know the source? Did the breeder keep it humid? It looks so perfectly smooth, that I'd expect it to be from Richard Fife. Do you know the age? I can only hope mine grow up that smooth.

Another thing that I've been trying to figure out is when, exactly, does pyramiding start. It seems to me that whatever pattern is established in the first few weeks will continue. Several breeders and experienced keepers have told me that if you can get them smooth to 4-6" they won't pyramid no matter what you do after that. By contrast, if they've already started pyramiding at a young age you pretty much can't stop it.

I'd love to know more about your set-up and climate conditions there. What substrate did you use for that fellow? Soaking routine? Water dish, or not? What size and type of enclosure? Sunshine, or not? UV bulbs, or not? Supplements, or not?

Sorry for all the questions, its just so rare to see a year old sulcata so smooth like that. He's got a pretty high dome too.

This has just given me a thought... We all refer to pyramiding as a raised scute. What if its not a raised scute, but a sunken valley between the scutes. If I looked at Daisy from the side and mentally brought all the valley's between her raised scutes up to the level of the tops of her pyramids she'd have a high dome just like that. Maybe pyramiding isn't the overgrowth of the center of the scute, but the UNDERGROWTH of the edges.

This has been one of my major obstacles in eradicating the scourge of pyramiding. No one, including me, seems to be able to really explain the exact mechanism behind it. Is it malformation of the underlying bone? Is it merely the upper keratinous layers? Both, in some combination? I'm left with trying to see what causes or prevents it. ALL the evidence (both scientific and anecdotal) I've seen points to humidity/moisture/hydration or the significant lack thereof.


----------



## terryo

I know nothing about Sulcata's, and My Cherry Head is my first tortoise, so I have absolutely no experence with tortoises. I only know that for the past almost three years that I have Pio, the humidity in his enclosure has rarely gone under 80 degrees, but his substrate was never kept wet. I really got blasted over at TT for saying that he was smooth because of the high humidity.


----------



## dmmj

WOW, so the old " he grows to fast" theory is still around?


----------



## Yvonne G

AH's response to Terry's pyramiding solution is the reason I quit his forum. He has old fashioned ideas and refuses to listen to new theory. He is a closet member here on the forum, so we can now expect to have him come in and slap our hands.


----------



## Maggie Cummings

terryo said:


> This is a post from Andy Highfield at Tortoise Trust after I said that I thought Pio was smooth because of all the humidity he grew up in.
> Terry,
> 
> The diet you are using is excellent and I would not expect to see poor bone development or "pyramiding" on such a regime - regardless of environmental conditions.
> 
> On this topic of humidity affecting bone growth, there is NO serious scientific evidence for this whatsoever, and furthermore, the single piece of published "research" that those who promulgate such misinformation rely upon is deeply, deeply flawed. Let me put it this way. There are thousands of people (apparently) who believe that Adolph Hitler is still alive and was take to a secret base on the moon using flying saucers built by Nazi scientists ( ) They believe this passionately. Oh, and the moon is not airless - it has an atmosphere like Earth. NASA know this, but keep it secret so that "other countries" will not go there ( ). Everyone who disagrees is part of the great New World Order conspiracy or is simply a gullible fool. It is quite easy to get such nonsense accepted as fact, especially on the Internet where you have a lot of very vocal people spreading myths and "facts" they barely understand.
> 
> Fact: The biology of bone growth (and pathologies) is very well understood. Tortoises are no different than any other animal. The same rules apply.
> Fact: Rapid growth is a key factor in all nutritionally related developmental bone pathologies.
> Fact: Excess protein stimulates high growth rates.
> 
> If you control growth, and ensure adequate serum (blood) D3 and trace element levels the bone will develop correctly, at an optimum density. There will be no deformity. It cannot happen.
> 
> The whole "humidity" issue is a total red herring. It is unscientific, illogical, and unfortunately, leads many people to make fatal mistakes. Sadly, the good old Internet is the perfect place for such anti-science myths to spread like a nasty disease.
> 
> Andy



I spent many an afternoon on TT arguing with Mr. Highfield and others there about humidity and pyramiding and Sulcata. He humiliated me no matter what facts I showed him. The members of TT blindly follow him they are outright rude to most Americans and they also will tear apart any American who tries to show that Sulcata need humidity to prevent pyramiding. I ended up being banned for life.
Right now in Senegal the temp is 73 degrees with 88% humidity. Not only do Sulcata create humidity in their burrows the ambient air carries humidity for them and I use Senegal as an example as that covers a good part of their territory.
He will admit to not keeping any Sulcata, I have and do and I have researched humidity until I can't stand hearing the word. But...Sulcata need humidity to prevent pyramiding and soon it will be apparent to everyone and we will have been the front runners to that belief.
I am sure that if Mr. Highfield does appear to comment on this thread he will be treated with a respect he does not give to Americans when they broach the subject of humidity and Sulcata on TT.


----------



## Sigmar

I hope i don't get chewed up and spit out by this group. I'm kinda questioning the humidity thing. Has anyone seen a wild caught specimen and how many to give a good comparison? Here is an interesting article about their homeland http://www.anapsid.org/sulcata.html I'm wondering if this problem exists in the wild. I also highly question calcium supplementation, especially when its easy to give it to them naturally, my vet tells me don't do it. yea I'm a complete noob when it comes to tortoises but some things are not yet adding up from all I've read and what common sense is telling me. For instance their natural habitat.


----------



## Kayti

Sigmar said:


> I hope i don't get chewed up and spit out by this group. I'm kinda questioning the humidity thing. Has anyone seen a wild caught specimen and how many to give a good comparison? Here is an interesting article about their homeland http://www.anapsid.org/sulcata.html I'm wondering if this problem exists in the wild. I also highly question calcium supplementation, especially when its easy to give it to them naturally, my vet tells me don't do it. yea I'm a complete noob when it comes to tortoises but some things are not yet adding up from all I've read and what common sense is telling me. For instance their natural habitat.



Melissa Kaplan (creator of anapsid.org) is an amazing herpetologist and the reason I first got into tortoises- but, she hasn't been active in the reptile world in like 15 years, unless I am mistaken. I know a lot of her care sheets are sort of out-dated now.


----------



## TortieGal

Great thread Tom! I predict your babies will be nice and smooth. Looking forward to seeing the next pictures.


----------



## reptylefreek

When i first got my baby sulcata, I kept him on hay as a substrate. He had a water dish and got regular soakings, but no actual humidity. He pyrimided fast. I have obviously changed his substrate and now I constantly spray him down and I now see some smooth growth. I now have a baby leopard and keep the substrate moist, humidity up there, and spray her regularly till she is dripping wet. I am also doing a kind of experiment with this. I am excited that someone as dedicated as Tom is doing this. I expect to see amazing results, and i hope for them too


----------



## Tom

Sigmar said:


> I hope i don't get chewed up and spit out by this group. I'm kinda questioning the humidity thing. Has anyone seen a wild caught specimen and how many to give a good comparison? Here is an interesting article about their homeland http://www.anapsid.org/sulcata.html I'm wondering if this problem exists in the wild. I also highly question calcium supplementation, especially when its easy to give it to them naturally, my vet tells me don't do it. yea I'm a complete noob when it comes to tortoises but some things are not yet adding up from all I've read and what common sense is telling me. For instance their natural habitat.



Hi Sigmar. There will be no chewing or spitting here today. The first thing I noticed on the link you posted was the date, "1996". As Kayti already noted, its pretty outdated. I'll address some of your questions as best I can.

No, this doesn't happen in the wild. Occasionally you'll see an imported tortoise that is pyramided. I contend that such a tortoise was captive raised in Africa and then shipped over here to the states as a wild caught. I saw this with my own eyes in Africa. There were captive tortoises everywhere. Thousands of them.

A couple of points about the wild, but a preface first. MY theory is that pyramiding is CAUSED by growth in the absence of sufficient humidity/moisture. Yes they come from a hot dry area, but they aren't growing when its at its hottest and driest. They aestivate in humid underground burrows during those times. They are only growing during the humid, sloppy wet rainy season, because that's the only time there is plentiful, nutritious food around. As Maggie pointed out, its 88% humidity over there right now. Its not as hot and dry all year over there as we tend to think it is. I was in the natural habitat of the Leopard tortoise for several months and at times the humidity was just like Louisiana. At others times, it was below freezing at night.

Second point about the wild: Babies don't come above ground much. You'll never see a hatchling sulcata or leopard just walking around out in the open, hot, dry air. They'd get picked off by a host of predators instantaneously. They stay underground in humid burrows most of the time or bury themselves into the damp root balls of plants. They stay hidden in humid areas of an otherwise dry landscape. It is also my belief that the pattern for shell growth is established in the first few days or weeks of a young tortoises life. Most experienced keepers and breeders have told me that if you can get them to 4 or 6" smooth, they will continue to grow that way regardless of how they are kept after that. Prior to figuring that one out, I always wondered why smooth, young wild caughts didn't start pyramiding as soon as they got over here into the same captive conditions as our pyramided ones.

Calcium: I think your vet is referring to over-supplementation and/or possibly calcium with D3. Sprinkling a little plain calcium carbonate on the food occasionally is pretty natural. About the same as leaving cuttle bone around. There are excellent keepers here on the forum (GB) who don't use it at all. He keeps mostly smaller species. Other excellent keepers (Yvonne) recommend a fair amount of calcium supplementation for the larger growing species like sulcatas or Aldabrans in her case. Yvonne is careful to point out that she doesn't use calcium with D3, as her tortoises get lots of sunshine. Personally, I'm somewhere in between. I don't use a lot of supplements, but I do occasionally use a little.

Now then; will somebody please correct my ignorance and tell me what is TT. Is that Tortoise Trust? I'm assuming they have a forum too. So Andy is another yahoo with no sulcata experience whatsoever, telling people who have been keeping and RAISING sulcatas for decades that they are all wrong about everything? IF that is true, he doesn't sound like a very bright guy. A couple of months ago, I had this very argument with a guy here on the forum. It was going nowhere and it finally occurred to me to ask what his level of experience with sulcatas was. ZERO. He was talking about Egyptians. It turns out that he and I were both probably right in what we were saying, but we were talking about two totally different species. I know nothing about Egyptian tortoises. I would never intentionally argue anything about how to properly raise an Egyptian.

If Andy or any of his followers are here please chime in. I don't see how you have a leg to stand on if you haven't raised a few sulcatas, but I would like to hear what you have to say. I only ask that it be a two way street. I don't know everything, but I do know a few things. I am, after all, here to learn.


----------



## -EJ

There is no doubt that the answer lays within the boundry line of the scutes... this is where pyramiding begins. The keratin layer restricts bone growth in pyramiding.




Tom said:


> This has been one of my major obstacles in eradicating the scourge of pyramiding. No one, including me, seems to be able to really explain the exact mechanism behind it. Is it malformation of the underlying bone? Is it merely the upper keratinous layers? Both, in some combination? I'm left with trying to see what causes or prevents it. ALL the evidence (both scientific and anecdotal) I've seen points to humidity/moisture/hydration or the significant lack thereof.




wow... this is ignorance at it's best.

How does he explain my results feeding a strict pelleted diet which he... in his infinate wisdom... believes is 'too high' in protein.

Needless to say... those keepers who actually learn from their experiences and that of others tend to drift away from this particular person.

I'd love to see a reference or any 'reasonable' explanation for his 'facts'.

I can only come up with one thought on the AHs 'facts'... idiotic.



terryo said:


> This is a post from Andy Highfield at Tortoise Trust after I said that I thought Pio was smooth because of all the humidity he grew up in.
> Terry,
> 
> The diet you are using is excellent and I would not expect to see poor bone development or "pyramiding" on such a regime - regardless of environmental conditions.
> 
> On this topic of humidity affecting bone growth, there is NO serious scientific evidence for this whatsoever, and furthermore, the single piece of published "research" that those who promulgate such misinformation rely upon is deeply, deeply flawed. Let me put it this way. There are thousands of people (apparently) who believe that Adolph Hitler is still alive and was take to a secret base on the moon using flying saucers built by Nazi scientists ( ) They believe this passionately. Oh, and the moon is not airless - it has an atmosphere like Earth. NASA know this, but keep it secret so that "other countries" will not go there ( ). Everyone who disagrees is part of the great New World Order conspiracy or is simply a gullible fool. It is quite easy to get such nonsense accepted as fact, especially on the Internet where you have a lot of very vocal people spreading myths and "facts" they barely understand.
> 
> Fact: The biology of bone growth (and pathologies) is very well understood. Tortoises are no different than any other animal. The same rules apply.
> Fact: Rapid growth is a key factor in all nutritionally related developmental bone pathologies.
> Fact: Excess protein stimulates high growth rates.
> 
> If you control growth, and ensure adequate serum (blood) D3 and trace element levels the bone will develop correctly, at an optimum density. There will be no deformity. It cannot happen.
> 
> The whole "humidity" issue is a total red herring. It is unscientific, illogical, and unfortunately, leads many people to make fatal mistakes. Sadly, the good old Internet is the perfect place for such anti-science myths to spread like a nasty disease.
> 
> Andy




A wonderful account of the Sulcata in it's natural habitat can be found in 'The Crying Tortoise'... a French publication... not easy to find.

I don't know about anyone else but I'll never attack a person for having a difference of opinion.



Sigmar said:


> I hope i don't get chewed up and spit out by this group. I'm kinda questioning the humidity thing. Has anyone seen a wild caught specimen and how many to give a good comparison? Here is an interesting article about their homeland http://www.anapsid.org/sulcata.html I'm wondering if this problem exists in the wild. I also highly question calcium supplementation, especially when its easy to give it to them naturally, my vet tells me don't do it. yea I'm a complete noob when it comes to tortoises but some things are not yet adding up from all I've read and what common sense is telling me. For instance their natural habitat.




I could be mistaken but the last time I looked Melissa K. is a keeper the same as you or I. She is a great researcher and writer but does a disservice by injecting her personal slant on any topic she writes on. She does not, by any means offer objective information. 

Her writings would be fantastic if she offered the spectrum of her research and let the reader decide which is correct. This is along the lines of the AH... what I present is correct and everything else is nonsense.



Kayti said:


> Sigmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope i don't get chewed up and spit out by this group. I'm kinda questioning the humidity thing. Has anyone seen a wild caught specimen and how many to give a good comparison? Here is an interesting article about their homeland http://www.anapsid.org/sulcata.html I'm wondering if this problem exists in the wild. I also highly question calcium supplementation, especially when its easy to give it to them naturally, my vet tells me don't do it. yea I'm a complete noob when it comes to tortoises but some things are not yet adding up from all I've read and what common sense is telling me. For instance their natural habitat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Melissa Kaplan (creator of anapsid.org) is an amazing herpetologist and the reason I first got into tortoises- but, she hasn't been active in the reptile world in like 15 years, unless I am mistaken. I know a lot of her care sheets are sort of out-dated now.
Click to expand...



Tom... Pyramiding definately occurs in the wild. I'm basing this opinion of seeing many imported wild caught tortoises and observing tortoises in the wild.

Last point... Tom... I think you should do what you are doing and check out the results... you should ask as many question of the newbe who posted the other photo of the sulcata... you are not going to get more perfect than that.


----------



## Tom

-EJ said:


> Tom... Pyramiding definately occurs in the wild. I'm basing this opinion of seeing many imported wild caught tortoises and observing tortoises in the wild.
> 
> Last point... Tom... I think you should do what you are doing and check out the results... you should ask as many question of the newbe who posted the other photo of the sulcata... you are not going to get more perfect than that.





Thanks for chiming in Ej. I always appreciate your opinion, even when you disagree with me.

Have you seen wild pyramided sulcatas? I've heard of Leopards and Stars, but not sulcatas. I don't count imports, because so many are captive raised, in some form or other, over there.

I didn't see a single pyramided Leopard in all of South Africa. I've been there twice for a total of about 4 months. I only saw a handful of wild ones actually in the wild, but I saw literally hundreds of captives.

I agree with you on CGKeith's sulcata. That is the best, smoothest shell I've ever seen. I want to know everything that he's done from day one.

CGKeith, where did you go? Your fans want answers.


----------



## Yvonne G

Sigmar said:


> I hope i don't get chewed up and spit out by this group. ... Here is an interesting article about their homeland http://www.anapsid.org/sulcata.html I'm wondering if this problem exists in the wild. ... but some things are not yet adding up from all I've read and what common sense is telling me. For instance their natural habitat.



This is copied from the link you provided, "Sulcatas come from some of the Sahel, the hottest, driest area in Africa. Some regions may not get rain for years. To make the most of available moisture, their skin is resistant to fluid loss but, when exposed to moisture, may become highly permeable. Towards this end, they will excavate pallets or burrows in the ground to get to areas with higher moisture levels; in the wild, they may spend the hottest part of the day in these microhabitats."

In other words, they go into a humid environment, and while they're there, they poop and pee, keeping the humidity level up. 

I would hope that we would be a little more forgiving than you suggest, and chew on you just a bit, but be lady-like and not do any spitting!


----------



## Kristina

I have nothing important to add at the moment (I did my bit on Tom's other thread, LOL) but I just want to say I love you gyys, lol. Seriously. Tom, this is awesome and I really think some major answers are going to be discovered over the next 6 months, and I am anxious to read on.


----------



## Jacqui

emysemys said:


> but be lady-like and not do any spitting!



Dang Yvonne, there ya go taking away all our fun again!


----------



## Sigmar

In other words, they go into a humid environment, and while they're there, they poop and pee, keeping the humidity level up.

I would hope that we would be a little more forgiving than you suggest, and chew on you just a bit, but be lady-like and not do any spitting! Big Grin
Yvonne G.

This is copied from the same source,,,,,Sulcatas are, like most turtles and tortoises native to dry areas, extremely efficient in their use of water. A sulcata may urinate just 0.64 ml a day, significantly less than their spur-thighed cousins living in the relatively lush Mediterranean countries who may urinate 1-2 ml a day. A danger, then, in captivity is that too much water may be given or made accessible which may lead to health problems including skin and shell infections and kidney problems.

.64 ml is no where near enough to keep up humidity in that climate even in an enclosed burrow


----------



## Yvonne G

Sigmar said:


> .64 ml is no where near enough to keep up humidity in that climate even in an enclosed burrow



But you're missing the point. Those burrows go down so deep that the tortoise is in an already moist environment. Then add what little urine they expel, even less than a ml, and they actually ARE in a humid environment. They dig down at an angle for 20 feet or so, then they make a turn, usual a left turn. This bend in the tunnel effectivly blocks out the incoming hot air. When they get to where they want the tunnel to end, they excavate a small turn-around. So they are in a pretty tight and closed-in area of moist earth.

(Pa-too-ey!!)


----------



## chadk

What is the humidity already in that burrow? How many torts use the burrow? 

As we know, getting a hatchling started right can be the biggest challenge. So you really need to know the micro-climate of HATCHLINGS and not so much the adults. What time of year are they born? Where do they spend their time?

Has anyone ever experienced a sulcata that has had access to clean fresh water 24X7 have associated health problems???


----------



## -EJ

The similarities of some of the responses to previous 'discussions' on other lists is scary.

It looks like those who have their minds made up are not going to change their line of thought.

I don't mind debate but when more questions are asked than answered... that's not a debate. I've already done the work to attain the results I have. If anyone questions my or anyone elses results... they need to do the research and offer an answer to support their oppinion.

This 'discussion/debate' is way too familiar and is heading in a pointless direction.


----------



## Tom

-EJ said:


> The similarities of some of the responses to previous 'discussions' on other lists is scary.
> 
> It looks like those who have their minds made up are not going to change their line of thought.
> 
> I don't mind debate but when more questions are asked than answered... that's not a debate. I've already done the work to attain the results I have. If anyone questions my or anyone elses results... they need to do the research and offer an answer to support their oppinion.
> 
> This 'discussion/debate' is way too familiar and is heading in a pointless direction.



Ej, are you producing smooth hatchlings now. I can't recall seeing any pics. If so, what have you discovered to be the trick? You mentioned temps before. Are you going hotter or cooler than normal?

You are right. I do have my mind made up and within the next few months I'll either look like a bumbling idiot or a genius. My results will do all the talking for me, one way or the other. If humidity has nothing to do with pyramiding, then these new babies should pyramid at exactly the same rate as my other ones all have, since I am raising them exactly the same way. I've already posted pics of my adults several times and I'll probably take some more photos for comparison sake and posting here in this thread. Point being; the rate of pyramiding in my area with my style of raising them is well documented and easily seen. The only variable, I'm changing for these current hatchlings is humidity and moisture.


----------



## CGKeith

Sorry, I haven't been able to sit long enough to post again until now.

Like I stated prior, I only had this little one for less than a year. 
I stated the diet prior. 
The enclosure was just the large plastic Christmas tree bin sold by walmart. You can see the substrate in the pictures, just newspaper and a little bermuda grass. 
Yes it had a small water dish, but I could never get it to drink from the dish, which is why I started misting it daily, it would drink the drops that dripped off the tip of it's nose (something I have had to do with some lizards).
Lighting was a MVB, placed about 12" above the substrate.
The only other condition that could factor in is the fact that I run a Mastercool (swamp cooler) which keeps a constant humidity level in the room.

I have kept baby desert tortoises the same way with near perfect shell growth as well.

That being said, I have Ibera greeks that have pyramided when kept under the same conditions.
I now have all my indoor enclosures with cypress mulch, kept deep enough to dig under and damp. I am liking the results so far on the greeks.


----------



## Tom

Sigmar said:


> This is copied from the same source,,,,,Sulcatas are, like most turtles and tortoises native to dry areas, extremely efficient in their use of water. A sulcata may urinate just 0.64 ml a day, significantly less than their spur-thighed cousins living in the relatively lush Mediterranean countries who may urinate 1-2 ml a day. A danger, then, in captivity is that too much water may be given or made accessible which may lead to health problems including skin and shell infections and kidney problems.
> 
> .64 ml is no where near enough to keep up humidity in that climate even in an enclosed burrow



Sigmar, I've never heard of any burrow humidity studies done in Africa and I've never tested it here, BUT I have dug a lot of holes in the desert. In fact two weeks ago we dug an 18" deep trench to bury the wire and foundation posts for my new lizard cage. About 6" below the surface the dirt is wet. In the middle of summer when its 110 every day and single digit humidity with no rain for several months the dirt is cool and damp just a foot down. 

Rather than guessing and speculating, remind me in July or August and I'll dig a big hole with a short horizontal section off to one side and we will measure humidity. The climate up here is pretty similar to the natural range of the sulcata. Its very hot and dry. I think we get less rainfall than that part of the world. We get hardly any. Often when is raining or gloomy just over the hill in Los Angeles, its hot and sunny up here.

Its not scientific, I know, but its better than everyone guessing. I can do it right now, but we've had an unusually long and heavy rainy season here this year, so I'm afraid it will be wetter than the norm. By the middle of summer, however, everything will have had plenty of hot, dry, windy weather to dry out. I'll set the probe out in the open on bare dirt and leave it for an hour or so to check surface humidity, then I'll dig a big hole right in that spot, reach in and dig a horizontal side tunnel, stick the probe in there for an hour and take a pic of the digital readout for all to see.



CGKeith said:


> Sorry, I haven't been able to sit long enough to post again until now.
> 
> Like I stated prior, I only had this little one for less than a year.
> I stated the diet prior.
> The enclosure was just the large plastic Christmas tree bin sold by walmart. You can see the substrate in the pictures, just newspaper and a little bermuda grass.
> Yes it had a small water dish, but I could never get it to drink from the dish, which is why I started misting it daily, it would drink the drops that dripped off the tip of it's nose (something I have had to do with some lizards).
> Lighting was a MVB, placed about 12" above the substrate.
> The only other condition that could factor in is the fact that I run a Mastercool (swamp cooler) which keeps a constant humidity level in the room.
> 
> I have kept baby desert tortoises the same way with near perfect shell growth as well.
> 
> That being said, I have Ibera greeks that have pyramided when kept under the same conditions.
> I now have all my indoor enclosures with cypress mulch, kept deep enough to dig under and damp. I am liking the results so far on the greeks.



Wow. Thanks for the details. So, I'll bet you run the swamp cooler most of the year in AZ, right? Do you have a humidity gauge of some sort in the room? I'd sure like to know what the humidity is in there.

The shell misting thing has been gaining ground in my mind and your pics make a pretty good case for it.

Do you supplement Ca? D3 or not? Sunshine? Exercise?

Your experience with the greeks is pretty interesting too. Both ways.

Again sorry to grill you so hard, but your case is so exceptional that you need to give the rest of us lessons, seriously.


----------



## -EJ

Do a little research in the archives... there is tons of good information to be found there.



Tom said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> The similarities of some of the responses to previous 'discussions' on other lists is scary.
> 
> It looks like those who have their minds made up are not going to change their line of thought.
> 
> I don't mind debate but when more questions are asked than answered... that's not a debate. I've already done the work to attain the results I have. If anyone questions my or anyone elses results... they need to do the research and offer an answer to support their oppinion.
> 
> This 'discussion/debate' is way too familiar and is heading in a pointless direction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ej, are you producing smooth hatchlings now. I can't recall seeing any pics. If so, what have you discovered to be the trick? You mentioned temps before. Are you going hotter or cooler than normal?
> 
> You are right. I do have my mind made up and within the next few months I'll either look like a bumbling idiot or a genius. My results will do all the talking for me, one way or the other. If humidity has nothing to do with pyramiding, then these new babies should pyramid at exactly the same rate as my other ones all have, since I am raising them exactly the same way. I've already posted pics of my adults several times and I'll probably take some more photos for comparison sake and posting here in this thread. Point being; the rate of pyramiding in my area with my style of raising them is well documented and easily seen. The only variable, I'm changing for these current hatchlings is humidity and moisture.
Click to expand...


----------



## DeanS

I still don't remember a response from Ed regarding temps...


----------



## CGKeith

Tom, I have had one of those little stick on humidity guages and it will vary with the weather since it is pulling in the air from outside. I run the cooler from April through October. Normal dry days here I might have a reading inside of 15% -20%, rainy days may get a reading as high as 40%-50%. 

No supplements. No sunshine.

I would be curious to see if the same results that I had could be duplicated, but I don't really want to raise a sulcata.


----------



## -EJ

Again... check the archives. I think I've covered my opinion quite thoroughly on this topic.

The main problem with some people is they want answers handed to them on a platter.

I've spent thousands on research material and many years of networking in addition to many years of practical experience... for some reason this particular thread has actually angered me.

For those of you who do the research and actually find the 'answer'... I do hope you will extend the same courtacy that long time keepers have extended and actually share your results.



DeanS said:


> I still don't remember a response from Ed regarding temps...


----------



## Kristina

-EJ said:


> Again... check the archives. I think I've covered my opinion quite thoroughly on this topic.
> 
> The main problem with some people is they want answers handed to them on a platter.
> 
> I've spent thousands on research material and many years of networking in addition to many years of practical experience... for some reason this particular thread has actually angered me.
> 
> *For those of you who do the research and actually find the 'answer'... I do hope you will extend the same courtacy that long time keepers have extended and actually share your results.*
> 
> 
> 
> DeanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I still don't remember a response from Ed regarding temps...
Click to expand...



I find that statement intriguing, especially since you refuse to type out a simple temperature number because it is "in the archives."

Wouldn't that be a case of the pot calling the kettle black?


----------



## mightyclyde

I am excited about the experiment. I think it has possibilities. However, it seems that duplicating the experiments will be difficult for anyone else, as none of it seems to be measurable in any way. "frequent" mistings, "high" humidity, soak(s)... can mean anything. Completely subjective.


----------



## Tom

Ed, we are asking you to share what your research and experience has taught you. You came on and said you'd bet my older sulcatas pyramided because my temps were wrong, but you never said what the right temps are. Do you really expect every single one of us to raise dozens of hatchlings, for ten years, in an experimental fashion, with different temps to see which temp works the best? Isn't the point of this forum to share information about the best way to keep all of our tortoises as healthy as possible? That's what the point is for me.

You clearly know more and have more experience that most of us, but you want us to somehow earn the knowledge by wasting hours of our time searching through tens of thousands of old posts for something we may never find and have no idea how to look for? I'm happy to do a search. Can you at least give us the title of the thread to look for?

We will all eventually figure it out, as you have, but do you wish all of our tortoises to suffer the consequences of trial and error, as yours have?



mightyclyde said:


> I am excited about the experiment. I think it has possibilities. However, it seems that duplicating the experiments will be difficult for anyone else, as none of it seems to be measurable in any way. "frequent" mistings, "high" humidity, soak(s)... can mean anything. Completely subjective.



Good point mc. I'll be as precise as possible when it comes to describing exactly what I do for these guys.

My main objective, however, is to publicly demonstrate the difference between raising them dry (all of my current and past adults) and raising them "wet" (my current hatchlings), with all other variables remaining as constant as possible. I'm no scientist and three hatchlings does not a viable study make. I'm just trying to further tortoise knowledge a bit. If nothing else, the whole thing is just for my own edification. If someone else is interested or can somehow benefit from what I'm doing here, all the better.


----------



## chadk

I think I recall Ed mentioning 85 degrees in another recent post.


----------



## Yvonne G

chadk said:


> I think I recall Ed mentioning 85 degrees in another recent post.



Well, most of us have always said the turtle or tortoise needs to be AT LEAST 80 degrees to digest his food. I was thinking Ed meant something completely different, not just 5 degrees.


----------



## DeanS

85 seems a minimum to me...because it's probably 85 -95 in the burrow (in the Sahara)...but direct sunlight is going to be upwards of 125 and filtered sunlight (shade) is going to be 100 -115. Burrows are going to be the ONLY source of humidity from plant roots, animal respiration and such and they do get dripping wet underground...ARCHIVES hell! It's mostly common sense.


----------



## reptylefreek

Can genetics play ANY role in pyrimiding? Alot of people compare a torts shell to a persons fingernail. Well some people just have a gene that makes them have extremely unhealthy nails. I know some torts or more prone to pyrimiding then others, but could some individual torts be just genetically prone to pyrimid no matter what? Also, I have been really thinking about spring mix as a main staple. I heard somewhere on this forum that chard is high in oxalic acid, as well as spinich, and my spring mix i buy has quite a bit of chard and some spinich in it. If a person never picked it out, could that have any effects on pyrimiding? I have actually switched back to buying everything seperately so I know exactly what they are getting. 

There was recently a new member that keeps a Leopard, its 20 years old and has a perfect shell. This person did live in a high humidity climate but also fed a good bit of friut and things deemed "unhealthy" for that species. I really would like to see someone also test a diet theory as well. TOM: have you thought of this. Use one sully for the "humidity theory" and one with a "diet theory"


----------



## dmmj

I have seen studies about humidity and pyramiding, but sadly I have not seen any done on genetics, but I think it is a enviromental factor myself, not a genetic one.


----------



## -EJ

this list has turned into the very same as another we all know and love.

Take care folks.



emysemys said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to see a photo of that leopard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL! Ed...to see the photo you're going to have to go back through the archives and look for it!!!!! (and don't any of you do the work for him)
Click to expand...


----------



## Tom

reptylefreek said:


> Can genetics play ANY role in pyrimiding? Alot of people compare a torts shell to a persons fingernail. Well some people just have a gene that makes them have extremely unhealthy nails. I know some torts or more prone to pyrimiding then others, but could some individual torts be just genetically prone to pyrimid no matter what? Also, I have been really thinking about spring mix as a main staple. I heard somewhere on this forum that chard is high in oxalic acid, as well as spinich, and my spring mix i buy has quite a bit of chard and some spinich in it. If a person never picked it out, could that have any effects on pyrimiding? I have actually switched back to buying everything seperately so I know exactly what they are getting.
> 
> There was recently a new member that keeps a Leopard, its 20 years old and has a perfect shell. This person did live in a high humidity climate but also fed a good bit of friut and things deemed "unhealthy" for that species. I really would like to see someone also test a diet theory as well. TOM: have you thought of this. Use one sully for the "humidity theory" and one with a "diet theory"



Interesting that you should say this. We will see, at least to some degree, if genetics play a role because these three hatchlings are the offspring of my older, dry raised, pyramided ones. If genetics play a big role, I'd expect these ones to pyramid too.

I've got some more unrelated hatchlings on the way, and I intend to do diet, and alternative heat sources (underbelly heat mat instead of over head lights), as well as humidity, with two additional groups.

For the current group, which is two right now, but expecting a third to join us any day now, dry vs. wet, is the only variable that I'm changing from how I raised the others.


----------



## chairman

Went through the archives... my apologies to EJ if his position has changed since 2008, but that's the latest posts I could find that mention exact temperatures. The threads are:
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-866-post-7943.html#pid7943
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-758-post-7981.html#pid7981
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-2555-post-22202.html#pid22202
To summarize, the acceptable ranges listed are: 75-85(cool) to 90-100 (hot)[sulcata]; 70 to 90[Testudo]; 80 to 100[Herman's].


----------



## Yvonne G

Mike: Thanks for doing the searching for us. I really DO appreciate it. And in re-reading Ed's old posts, I have to admit, he's changed. He used to be a lot more forgiving in the "olden days."


----------



## reptylefreek

Ed... the new member joined very recently and I beleive the pictures would be in the leopard section. Under something like New tortoise forum member, old leopard owner. should be in the first couple pages. Pictures are the first post. I agree that some people dont wanna do the research theirselves and rely on instant answers from the people who did do their homework, but come on Ed, this cant be a "do as I say, not as I do". Or it can and it would make no sence at all. I would love for you to see these pictures if you haven't already.


----------



## chadk

just for Ed...

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-14029-page-1.html?highlight=leopard


----------



## Yvonne G

Why did you do that when he couldn't show us the courtesy of an answer? Oh, I know...it was the golden rule thingey.


----------



## reptylefreek

Just one thing... I really hope this experiment goes beyond sulcatas. I hope people learn more about ALL species with this experiment


----------



## Tom

I've got it in the works to do this with some Leopards as well. Others will have to try out what we learn here on other species. I wish I had the time and resources to just raise all sort of hatchlings of many species and try different things. In a sense, that is what we all do over our lifetimes. 

I think a huge benefit of participating in a forum like this is that we CAN learn from what everybody else is doing. I can't raise a whole bunch of every species with different variables, but collectively, that is exactly what we are all doing. Its been a number of years since I've had a redfoot, but I've learned a ton about them from Terry K. and the rest of you redfoot keepers. I've learned a whole lot of new stuff since I discovered this forum.

Seems appropriate to say: Thanks everyone!


----------



## terryo

I know this thread is about tortoises, but I was thinking about my boxies too. I only have the one tortoise, and he was raised with lots of humidity and a misting every time he stepped out of his hide, and so far he is very smooth. For the past thirty years I've been involved with boxies, as was my father before me. Way before there was a computer in my house, I always followed what my Dad did with his babies. I'm going back many, many years now. When he would find a hatchling in the yard, (he never incubated eggs) he would bring it in and keep it in a little plastic tub with wet moss. He always stressed humidity to me with the boxies. Reading this thread I can't stop thinking of him now and how he would have loved this forum, and how much he could have contributed. I know this is off topic, but I just had to throw it in. Sorry.


----------



## cdmay

_


terryo said:



I know this thread is about tortoises, but I was thinking about my boxies too. I only have the one tortoise, and he was raised with lots of humidity and a misting every time he stepped out of his hide, and so far he is very smooth. For the past thirty years I've been involved with boxies, as was my father before me. Way before there was a computer in my house, I always followed what my Dad did with his babies. I'm going back many, many years now. When he would find a hatchling in the yard, (he never incubated eggs) he would bring it in and keep it in a little plastic tub with wet moss. He always stressed humidity to me with the boxies. Reading this thread I can't stop thinking of him now and how he would have loved this forum, and how much he could have contributed. I know this is off topic, but I just had to throw it in. Sorry.

Click to expand...

_ Its not off topic. The thread is about pyramiding and pyramiding can occur in other chelonians besides tortoises and box turtles can get screwed up shells too.
Your dad seems to have been one of those people who figured out what to do based on observation of how the box turtles lived in the wild. From those observations he probably reasoned on the best way to keep the hatchlings.
I am sure he would have had some good insight to add to the forum and I doubt very much he would have come off as pompous or a know-it-all.


----------



## Tom

Update: Both hatchlings have absorbed their yolk sacks and are doing what sulcatas do best. Eating! No sign of number three yet, but I'm still expecting him to hatch. Here are some pics:

First day in their new home. I was going to put them into a tub on my new tortoise rack, but I decided against it for two reasons. Number 1: Its too big and I'm afraid I'd lose them in there. Too many places for them to flip too. Number 2: I started my adults in this same 20 long back in '98. Just imagine it with rabbit pellets, no water dish, and a cardboard cereal box for a hide instead of the humid hide box. I'm doing everything possible to raise them identically, except for humidity. They will move into an open topped tub when they get bigger, just like my adults did.






Sorry for the bad pic, but I though it would be important to show the living conditions. You can see the remote probe in the above pic. Its the little white plastic rectangular box on top of the humid hide box. This is the base unit. Top number, 78, is the temp where the probe sits. Next number, 82%, is humidity at the probe. Its 99% inside the hide box. Next two numbers are the high and low over the last 24 hour period. It was sitting somewhere else when it picked up that 73. This was the first day I set it up. Last two numbers are temp, 81 and humidity 64% at the base unit. Just to clarify; the probe is in the tank with the babies and the base unit is sitting on the table in front of the tank.





First soak. A daily occurrence.





Oh, I forgot to mention that Ava (with minimal help from my wife) decided to name them Tuck and Tulee. If number three ever hatches he'll be Trey. I have no idea where she came up with these.


----------



## ChiKat

Awww they are too cute!
I love the names Ava picked  when my cousin was 3 he named one of his toys 'Trent' haha where do they come up with these things?
Thanks for the update, I can't wait to watch them grow..
smoothly!


----------



## Tom

ChiKat said:


> Awww they are too cute!
> I love the names Ava picked  when my cousin was 3 he named one of his toys 'Trent' haha where do they come up with these things?
> Thanks for the update, I can't wait to watch them grow..
> smoothly!



I'm anxious too. I must check on them 50 times a day. They got their first grape leaves today.


----------



## stells

So you are not raising them the same way as you are keeping them on a different substrate and with access to water at all times? and you didn't do this with your "control group"... makes me wonder what else you are doing differently... diet? Temps? soaking regime?

Also wondering why you have placed the humid hide... at the cool end of the enclosure?

Also you said in your first thread about it being the end of pyramiding for captive raised tortoises... now you are saying that you are only doing this with Sulcata's and maybe Leopards... so was that opening statement in your first post on this thread abit misleading maybe?


----------



## mightyclyde

The names are well thought. My 3 year old wanted to name our Hermann's tortoise "DooDah". She still calls him that.


----------



## terryo

Tom, I love those names. They are so cute, and I think they fit really well for those little guys.


----------



## Tom

Updates: First time sunning. Pics are from yesterday 5-28-10.










BIG Update: Trey has decided to join the party! Pipped on 5-29-10.


----------



## TortieGal

They look like they're having a great time soaking up some sun and all that room to run around. So cute.


----------



## Kayti

Yay happy birthday Trey!

Sorry, a bit ot:
I have those same bins, Tom. What is that top you've made for it? Would you mind explaining how you did it?

Also, I've read that mesh and things like window screens greatly reduce the amount of UVA/UVB that gets through- does anyone know if this is true, and what gauge you could use to avoid it? 
I've noticed that Exo Terra's have a very fine mesh screen top, but a lot of people keep reptiles in them that need full spectrum, and I've never heard of any problems.


----------



## Tom

Kayti said:


> Yay happy birthday Trey!
> 
> Sorry, a bit ot:
> I have those same bins, Tom. What is that top you've made for it? Would you mind explaining how you did it?
> 
> Also, I've read that mesh and things like window screens greatly reduce the amount of UVA/UVB that gets through- does anyone know if this is true, and what gauge you could use to avoid it?
> I've noticed that Exo Terra's have a very fine mesh screen top, but a lot of people keep reptiles in them that need full spectrum, and I've never heard of any problems.



My friend actually made these for his hatchling Russian a few years ago and gave them to me when he built his permanent outdoor Russian enclosure. Its just a simple PVC frame. Its not even glued. The mesh is held on there with some zip ties. This mesh is actually plastic and the holes are 1/2 inch by 1/2 inch. I'm sure it does filter out a very small percentage of the UV, but not enough to matter. Tighter screens, like window screens, would filter out more. The mesh is only to keep out errant ravens. We really don't have a predator problem out here, but these babies are so small that a bird could easily swoop down and be gone with them without me even noticing. If I was worried about predators I'd build a 2x4 frame and use hardware cloth or welded wire. They are only out when I'm around to supervise and only for an hour or so at a time. When they get bigger, they'll get a larger enclosure for exercise and sunning until eventually they move into Daisy's 15x30' slumpstone block pen.


----------



## ChiKat

Awww Trey! Can't wait to see pictures of him 
Where did you get that large tub? Do you happen to know the dimensions?


----------



## jackrat

Tom,at least you are DOING something. For better or worse,I guarantee you will learn some things. If not you,then someone else who actually DOES something will solve the riddle of pyramiding. Nobody is ever going to talk their way to the answer. Keep up the good fight.


----------



## Kayti

ChiKat said:


> Awww Trey! Can't wait to see pictures of him
> Where did you get that large tub? Do you happen to know the dimensions?



Lowe's! I just got done searching every hardware store in my area because I wanted to buy more of them- they are called "cement mixing bins" and all hardware stores have them, but only Lowe's has this size without the sloping sides. They are about 3 ft by 2 ft. 


I thought the finer meshes might filter out more UVA/UVB. I'm sure a gauge like Tom's doesn't filter out too much, but I seriously wonder about the Exo Terra ones now.


----------



## Tom

jackrat said:


> Tom,at least you are DOING something. For better or worse,I guarantee you will learn some things. If not you,then someone else who actually DOES something will solve the riddle of pyramiding. Nobody is ever going to talk their way to the answer. Keep up the good fight.



Thanks man. 100% agreed. Enough talk. I wish all the people on both sides would go get a brand new hatchling and demonstrate what they think will work. Then we'd really make some progress.


----------



## Seiryu

Tom said:


> Thanks man. 100% agreed. Enough talk. I wish all the people on both sides would go get a brand new hatchling and demonstrate what they think will work. Then we'd really make some progress.



I am definitely going to try the keeping substrate moist 100%, daily misting's (at least 3 a day), daily soaks thing if I ever get another leopard hatchling (I hope!).

With Thor, half of his 4x6 enclosure was dry, the other was moist. I never misted him though, until a few weeks ago when people started saying it was OK to spray sulcata's. And with soaking, I do maybe 2-3 a week, but I see him in his water dish drinking daily.

I'll have to post some pictures of him when i got him at 3-4 months old in another thread, but he may have already been slightly pyramiding when I got him. And if what people say is true, you can't start smoothing it out for years and have to let it run it's course.

I do appreciate the work you're doing though Tom, it should be interesting to see how these guys turn out.


----------



## stells

If a tortoise is older and pyramiding then they can be hard to "smooth out" in a little tortoise it isn't that difficult... i have had a few hatchlings come to me with early signs of pyramiding that have gone on to grow smooth since me having them...


----------



## Tom

Update: Tuck and Tulee have each grown about 5mm and they each weigh 41 grams now. Check out the new growth around the edges of the scutes. Very cool.





Trey has officially joined the party! He's in the brood box now absorbing his yolk sack. He's just about 5 cm, like his two siblings and he weighed in at 32 grams.









Meet Trey:


----------



## terryo

I'm really excited about this thread Tom. If hatchlings are going to start Pyramiding, how old would they be when they do start. Of course I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Tulee, Tuck, and the others.


----------



## Tom

terryo said:


> I'm really excited about this thread Tom. If hatchlings are going to start Pyramiding, how old would they be when they do start. Of course I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Tulee, Tuck, and the others.



I've seen it in them in as little as their first month. Daisy was pretty heavily pyramided when I got her at 12 weeks. She was kept very dry, on grass pellets, at an ambient temp of 80-85 and with no basking spot. Tuck and Tulee hatched on the 15th, so they are already more than two weeks into it. Trey pipped two days ago and went into the brood box just a few hours ago. (I love that each post here has a date and time stamp. It will help me keep track of details months from now.)

I would say that by 90 days, it should be pretty apparent which way its going to go.


----------



## PaeSerin

I actually have just a quick question. I was led to believe high humidity was a high factor in respiratory infections in tortoises. I admit, it's hard getting the same answer twice around here, but even my vet said the high humidity here is a huge factor. Have I been mislead?


----------



## Tom

Good question. You are right about the inconsistent answers. For the last three decades everyone thought that all species of desert tortoises needed it hot and dry all the time. As you've seen from your vet most people still do. Also for the last three decades, almost everyone who raised a desert species of tortoise (CDT, Leopard, Sulcata) ended up with them heavily pyramided. There were very few exceptions to this and almost every exception was a tortoise raised outdoors in South Florida or Louisiana. I did not see a single smooth captive raised Leopard or sulcata in CA for nearly 20 years.

A few years ago, a man named Richard Fife in Arizona discovered quite by accident that if you raise a Leopard tortoise on a humid substrate with a humid hide box, they don't pyramid. This was a ground breaking, amazing discovery. The establishment balked at him and most people wrote him off as a nut. Meanwhile he kept raising and selling batch after batch of healthy, smooth Leopards and sulcatas while nobody else could. Many of the Leopards and Sulcatas on this site came from him. In 2007 he and his brother published a book and this is when most of the tortoise world got wind of this.

I was so frustrated by failure after failure that I was ready to try anything. I got a three month old, already pyramiding hatchling and gave her a humid hide box. She didn't get sick, but she didn't stop pyramiding either. As I learned more, I made it more and more humid and wet in there. Now, and for the last year, you could find drier areas in the middle of the Everglades. Her pen is an absolute swamp AND her new growth is starting to come in smooth. Sulcatas raised in the most humid parts of our country don't get respiratory infections unless young ones are allowed to catch a chill. I spray her and her enclosure several times a day every day. I soak her everyday. Her substrate and her hide are wet. Not damp, but dripping wet. And I keep her warm. She's healthy as a horse and no sign of shell rot or respiratory problems. I'm not advocating that anybody keep them this wet, I'm just illustrating that even in very extreme conditions, they don't get sick because of wetness/humidity.

Think about this. In the wild, it is a desert. But only for nine months out of the year. Guess what the other three are. The rainy season. Its wet and very humid nearly every day. Coincidentally, this is also when most of their food grows and they do the majority of their growing. The rest of the year they subsist on dead dry grasses and shrubs and try to avoid the heat by staying in humid burrows.

Also consider that babies don't just walk around above ground, out in the open much. If they did they'd get eaten quick. Hatchlings and babies stay in humid burrows or they burrow into plant root balls or leaf litter.

Where the debate comes in is with all the different species. Some people have raised some species without intentionally increasing humidity and gotten good results. The old stand by's keep getting repeated too. Pyramiding is not caused by excess protein. Pyramiding is caused by growth in the absence of sufficient humidity. Excess protein causes more growth. If its humid the growth will be smooth, if its dry the growth will be pyramided. This I can tell you from personal experience. Lots of it.


----------



## PaeSerin

Thanks for the well-explained answer. Best one I've ever gotten on the subject.


----------



## Tom

You are very welcome. I always feel like I'm leaving out important details, even though my posts can get very long-winded. Please ask more questions. It helps me remember important details that I've forgotten. It has taken decades to get to where I am with this, and A LOT of things have happened and been observed over that time. The whole idea, for me, is to share what I have learned and hopefully inspire others to share what they've learned, so that we can all figure out and eliminate pyramiding.

Questions and criticism actually help to further this goal.


----------



## Tom

Update:
Tuck.






Tulee.





Trey.





All are doing well. Eating, sunning and soaking daily. Humidity in their tank is staying in the high 80's. They also get sprayed several times a day.


----------



## latshki

Tom, when is the time that they hatch in the wild? is it the month or two before the rainy season 
I think you have something here and it all seems to make perfect sense lol
if I ever get some sulcatas they will be following your end of pyramiding care given here


----------



## Tom

latshki said:


> Tom, when is the time that they hatch in the wild? is it the month or two before the rainy season
> I think you have something here and it all seems to make perfect sense lol
> if I ever get some sulcatas they will be following your end of pyramiding care given here



Honestly, I don't know, but I'll make an educated guess. I would think they'd hatch in the Spring time, which would be October, November for the Southern Hemisphere. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will correct me if I'm wrong. I'm going to be trying these techniques, or something similar, with some other species too, in the not too distant future.


----------



## Yvonne G

I once had a female sulcata here who laid three or four clutches throughout the year...summer, winter, spring...didn't matter to her. And I believe, if left alone, the eggs would hatch in three or four months from the date they were laid, depending upon the heat of the earth. So in winter, they probably wouldn't hatch at all, but the rest of the year I don't think it matters if its rainy or not, they just hatch when they've matured.


----------



## Tom

emysemys said:


> I once had a female sulcata here who laid three or four clutches throughout the year...summer, winter, spring...didn't matter to her. And I believe, if left alone, the eggs would hatch in three or four months from the date they were laid, depending upon the heat of the earth. So in winter, they probably wouldn't hatch at all, but the rest of the year I don't think it matters if its rainy or not, they just hatch when they've matured.



I've seen the same thing in captivity. Its fairly common to get 3-5 clutches of 15-20 eggs a year, at anytime of year. Most, but not all, people who breeds sulcatas tell me they lay about once a month during the warmer months. Others tell me its just random and they do it whenever they feel like it. My female has chosen January as her time to lay, which makes her babies hatch out just as the weather is really warming up. She been living outside, full time for around 7 years now, so she should be pretty well programmed for the seasons in our area here.


----------



## Tom

Update: Steadily growing. Smoothly.

Tuck:









Tulee: She's a little piggy. So far growing the fastest.









Trey: Two weeks late, but catching up.









Some side view beauty shots:


----------



## DeanS

WOW! They're as flawless as they are CUTE


----------



## Cameron

awesome Tom. i'm getting a new hatchling sully this week, i'm definitely gonna try the misting/higher humidity thing too. keep us updated!


----------



## ChiKat

WOW those new pictures are incredible!!! I can't believe the smooth growth- flawless!
I'm really looking forward to watching them grow! Thanks for posting regular updates!!


----------



## Cameron

Also I have heard Russ Gurley mention lack of humidity having a lot to do with pyramiding. I'm really hoping you can help to add credibility to this theory.


----------



## Tom

ChiKat said:


> WOW those new pictures are incredible!!! I can't believe the smooth growth- flawless!
> I'm really looking forward to watching them grow! Thanks for posting regular updates!!



Thanks Katie. They've been out of the egg for more than a month now and they still look great. I'm already farther ahead than I've ever been. Usually they are already starting to get bumpy by the end of the first month. (I mean my hatchlings always did in the past.) 90 days is my real benchmark. Its sort of arbitrary, but that's when I got Daisy, my 3 year old, and she was already pretty badly pyramided. I'm going to post comparison pics of her and these three when they hit 90 days.



Red Earth Exotics said:


> Also I have heard Russ Gurley mention lack of humidity having a lot to do with pyramiding. I'm really hoping you can help to add credibility to this theory.



Funny. Most people want to meet Tom Hanks or Wil Smith. I couldn't care less about the movie stars. I want to meet Russ Gurley, Richard Fife, Yvonne, Maggie and a few others like them. Oh, the brain picking I could do...

I just learned about a new guy today. He's a bit of a recluse. Doesn't want anyone to call him or know his name. I know several of his friends and I'm contacting him through them. I doubt I'll ever get to see his place or meet him, but the man knows some stuff about tortoises. He's got a herd of about 20 Gpp and he's figured out some stuff. He was having nothing but trouble getting them to incubate. Very little success.

One day his kid says, "hey dad, look at that baby tortoise over there." Sure enough he hunted around and found a hole in the ground with Gpp hatchlings streaming out of it. He incubates them all "naturally" in the ground now. 18 month incubation time. Apparently, they lay during the cooler months and there is a long diapause. This makes sense as the climate over there in SA is nearly the same as it is here in SoCal. He says the females are very meticulous about covering their tracks. He just sits and watches them all day and marks the nests. He says if you didn't see them laying, you wouldn't know there was a nest.

Sorry. Very off topic. But I find it very interesting.


----------



## Cameron

Tom said:


> Red Earth Exotics said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also I have heard Russ Gurley mention lack of humidity having a lot to do with pyramiding. I'm really hoping you can help to add credibility to this theory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny. Most people want to meet Tom Hanks or Wil Smith. I couldn't care less about the movie stars. I want to meet Russ Gurley, Richard Fife, Yvonne, Maggie and a few others like them. Oh, the brain picking I could do...
> 
> I just learned about a new guy today. He's a bit of a recluse. Doesn't want anyone to call him or know his name. I know several of his friends and I'm contacting him through them. I doubt I'll ever get to see his place or meet him, but the man knows some stuff about tortoises. He's got a herd of about 20 Gpp and he's figured out some stuff. He was having nothing but trouble getting them to incubate. Very little success.
> 
> One day his kid says, "hey dad, look at that baby tortoise over there." Sure enough he hunted around and found a hole in the ground with Gpp hatchlings streaming out of it. He incubates them all "naturally" in the ground now. 18 month incubation time. Apparently, they lay during the cooler months and there is a long diapause. This makes sense as the climate over there in SA is nearly the same as it is here in SoCal. He says the females are very meticulous about covering their tracks. He just sits and watches them all day and marks the nests. He says if you didn't see them laying, you wouldn't know there was a nest.
> 
> Sorry. Very off topic. But I find it very interesting.
Click to expand...



It's easy for me, he is the president of the Okc Herp Society, so he does tortoise presentations for us a few times a year. 

Also, i can't for the life of me figure out GPP. Galapagos??


----------



## Annieski

Wow, Tom, "the Babies" look fantastic! I'm curious--- what are they eating and do you notice if they have a preference for one thing over another or amount?


----------



## Seiryu

Red Earth Exotics said:


> Also, i can't for the life of me figure out GPP. Galapagos??



I think Gpp = Geochelone Pardalis, Pardalis (Leopard tortoise).


----------



## Cameron

Seiryu said:


> Red Earth Exotics said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, i can't for the life of me figure out GPP. Galapagos??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Gpp = Geochelone Pardalis, Pardalis (Leopard tortoise).
Click to expand...


Thanks! Acronyms can be tough!


----------



## Tom

Annieski said:


> Wow, Tom, "the Babies" look fantastic! I'm curious--- what are they eating and do you notice if they have a preference for one thing over another or amount?



They are eating a little of all the good stuff. The rose leaves have to be small, soft new growth. I give them different colored flower petals mixed in with the food sometimes, but they just seem to munch on everything equally. They didn't care much for the kale, but ate it anyway since that's all they got that day. Same with mustard greens. They love the mallow and mulberry leaves. The opuntia becomes a slimy mess by the time I chop it finely enough, but they still ate it. They seem to eat quite a bit for three tiny little babies. Interestingly, their appetite seems to really pick up in their sunning cage too. I've always said natural sunshine is a reptile "supercharger".


----------



## spikethebest

i just love the pics!!!! cant wait to see them in person sometime soon. your doing a great job.


----------



## danielledelynn

Tuck, Tulee & Trey....that may possibly be the most adorable set of names for a triplet tortie family that I've ever heard!!! They are all beautiful and look smoother than a baby's bottom! Thanks for the update & pics Tom


----------



## Paige Lewis

I have found this so interesting to follow, when i first got my tort he was already pyramiding at 3 months, he was on a weed diet from the start of me having him with supplements yet his growth didn't at first seem to change its pattern, i then increased the humidity (as i joined this forum and began reading about it) in his enclosure and started spraying him and his growth over the past few months has begun smoothing out.


----------



## Tom

Paige Lewis said:


> I have found this so interesting to follow, when i first got my tort he was already pyramiding at 3 months, he was on a weed diet from the start of me having him with supplements yet his growth didn't at first seem to change its pattern, i then increased the humidity (as i joined this forum and began reading about it) in his enclosure and started spraying him and his growth over the past few months has begun smoothing out.



This is nearly the same story as my Daisy tortoise. Although, its taken me nearly three years to be able to say the new growth is now coming in smooth.


----------



## Tom

Extreme close up of Tuck's shell. He's just over six weeks in this pic.






This pic is literally just minutes out of the egg:






Tuck is the first of my three hatchlings, so he's the oldest by a couple of days. Weights and measurements will be coming soon.


----------



## Tom

Update: These pics are from a few days ago, just shy of the 60 day mark. I left them in their sunning cage for a couple of hours in the hot dry sun and then put them down on the dry ground for these pics. It looks as stark and dry as possible, in contrast to the usual wet photos. I wish I had photos of my adults when they were this size for comparison, but no such luck.

Here's Tulee:









Trey, the youngest, but quickly catching up in size:













Tuck, the first one to hatch:





The end:


----------



## ChiKat

Wow Tom, they all look incredible!! How exciting to see such great results 
I love how rounded they are. I'm used to my Russian "pancake" 

Love the picture updates; keep them coming!


----------



## kbaker

Those are great shots!! 

Trey is my favorite of the three.


----------



## -EJ

Total nonsense.

AH actually gave the closest explaination to pyramiding and it does involve humidity.



terryo said:


> This is a post from Andy Highfield at Tortoise Trust after I said that I thought Pio was smooth because of all the humidity he grew up in.
> Terry,
> 
> The diet you are using is excellent and I would not expect to see poor bone development or "pyramiding" on such a regime - regardless of environmental conditions.
> 
> On this topic of humidity affecting bone growth, there is NO serious scientific evidence for this whatsoever, and furthermore, the single piece of published "research" that those who promulgate such misinformation rely upon is deeply, deeply flawed. Let me put it this way. There are thousands of people (apparently) who believe that Adolph Hitler is still alive and was take to a secret base on the moon using flying saucers built by Nazi scientists ( ) They believe this passionately. Oh, and the moon is not airless - it has an atmosphere like Earth. NASA know this, but keep it secret so that "other countries" will not go there ( ). Everyone who disagrees is part of the great New World Order conspiracy or is simply a gullible fool. It is quite easy to get such nonsense accepted as fact, especially on the Internet where you have a lot of very vocal people spreading myths and "facts" they barely understand.
> 
> Fact: The biology of bone growth (and pathologies) is very well understood. Tortoises are no different than any other animal. The same rules apply.
> Fact: Rapid growth is a key factor in all nutritionally related developmental bone pathologies.
> Fact: Excess protein stimulates high growth rates.
> 
> If you control growth, and ensure adequate serum (blood) D3 and trace element levels the bone will develop correctly, at an optimum density. There will be no deformity. It cannot happen.
> 
> The whole "humidity" issue is a total red herring. It is unscientific, illogical, and unfortunately, leads many people to make fatal mistakes. Sadly, the good old Internet is the perfect place for such anti-science myths to spread like a nasty disease.
> 
> Andy


----------



## Tom

-EJ said:


> Total nonsense.
> 
> AH actually gave the closest explaination to pyramiding and it does involve humidity.
> 
> 
> 
> terryo said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a post from Andy Highfield at Tortoise Trust after I said that I thought Pio was smooth because of all the humidity he grew up in.
> Terry,
> 
> The diet you are using is excellent and I would not expect to see poor bone development or "pyramiding" on such a regime - regardless of environmental conditions.
> 
> On this topic of humidity affecting bone growth, there is NO serious scientific evidence for this whatsoever, and furthermore, the single piece of published "research" that those who promulgate such misinformation rely upon is deeply, deeply flawed. Let me put it this way. There are thousands of people (apparently) who believe that Adolph Hitler is still alive and was take to a secret base on the moon using flying saucers built by Nazi scientists ( ) They believe this passionately. Oh, and the moon is not airless - it has an atmosphere like Earth. NASA know this, but keep it secret so that "other countries" will not go there ( ). Everyone who disagrees is part of the great New World Order conspiracy or is simply a gullible fool. It is quite easy to get such nonsense accepted as fact, especially on the Internet where you have a lot of very vocal people spreading myths and "facts" they barely understand.
> 
> Fact: The biology of bone growth (and pathologies) is very well understood. Tortoises are no different than any other animal. The same rules apply.
> Fact: Rapid growth is a key factor in all nutritionally related developmental bone pathologies.
> Fact: Excess protein stimulates high growth rates.
> 
> If you control growth, and ensure adequate serum (blood) D3 and trace element levels the bone will develop correctly, at an optimum density. There will be no deformity. It cannot happen.
> 
> The whole "humidity" issue is a total red herring. It is unscientific, illogical, and unfortunately, leads many people to make fatal mistakes. Sadly, the good old Internet is the perfect place for such anti-science myths to spread like a nasty disease.
> 
> Andy
Click to expand...


What's total non-sense? AH said humidity is a red herring.

Stirring the pot today, Ed?


----------



## -EJ

Yea... totally stirring the pot...

Check out the TTs account on pyramiding. I'm willing to bet he has not changed the account... if he has he's done a disservice... it was the best account on the mechanism of pyramiding I've found to date... and it totally acknoledges moisture as a factor.



Tom said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Total nonsense.
> 
> AH actually gave the closest explaination to pyramiding and it does involve humidity.
> 
> 
> 
> terryo said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a post from Andy Highfield at Tortoise Trust after I said that I thought Pio was smooth because of all the humidity he grew up in.
> Terry,
> 
> The diet you are using is excellent and I would not expect to see poor bone development or "pyramiding" on such a regime - regardless of environmental conditions.
> 
> On this topic of humidity affecting bone growth, there is NO serious scientific evidence for this whatsoever, and furthermore, the single piece of published "research" that those who promulgate such misinformation rely upon is deeply, deeply flawed. Let me put it this way. There are thousands of people (apparently) who believe that Adolph Hitler is still alive and was take to a secret base on the moon using flying saucers built by Nazi scientists ( ) They believe this passionately. Oh, and the moon is not airless - it has an atmosphere like Earth. NASA know this, but keep it secret so that "other countries" will not go there ( ). Everyone who disagrees is part of the great New World Order conspiracy or is simply a gullible fool. It is quite easy to get such nonsense accepted as fact, especially on the Internet where you have a lot of very vocal people spreading myths and "facts" they barely understand.
> 
> Fact: The biology of bone growth (and pathologies) is very well understood. Tortoises are no different than any other animal. The same rules apply.
> Fact: Rapid growth is a key factor in all nutritionally related developmental bone pathologies.
> Fact: Excess protein stimulates high growth rates.
> 
> If you control growth, and ensure adequate serum (blood) D3 and trace element levels the bone will develop correctly, at an optimum density. There will be no deformity. It cannot happen.
> 
> The whole "humidity" issue is a total red herring. It is unscientific, illogical, and unfortunately, leads many people to make fatal mistakes. Sadly, the good old Internet is the perfect place for such anti-science myths to spread like a nasty disease.
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What's total non-sense? AH said humidity is a red herring.
> 
> Stirring the pot today, Ed?
Click to expand...


----------



## terryo

Total nonsense.

AH actually gave the closest explaination to pyramiding and it does involve humidity.

So then why did he discredit my post Ed?


----------



## Madkins007

I cannot seem to locate the TT article on pyramiding- can I get a link?

Andy writes some good stuff, but I think that some people in any field of expertise get a sort of fixation on something. I know of people who have been banned from the TT forums for disagreeing with key points, like this one.

I find it interesting that Andy (as with so many others in his situation) do not seem to admit that there may be a chance they are wrong or misunderstand a situation. For example, Andy talks a lot about bone development, but with tortoises, the bones are capped by scutes- does this change the dynamics?

I also think it is interesting he mentions one study. There are at least two I know of- Fife's and Wiesner's, which deals with Sulcata (http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/humidity-pyrmiding-sulcata-tortois.pdf )


----------



## Tom

Tom said:


> Update: These pics are from a few days ago, just shy of the 60 day mark. I left them in their sunning cage for a couple of hours in the hot dry sun and then put them down on the dry ground for these pics. It looks as stark and dry as possible, in contrast to the usual wet photos. I wish I had photos of my adults when they were this size for comparison, but no such luck.
> 
> Here's Tulee:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trey, the youngest, but quickly catching up in size:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tuck, the first one to hatch:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The end:



These pics got buried by some other stuff. So here they are again.


----------



## Redfoot NERD

Tom you are showing evidence that the "science" world denies.. probly because they can't disprove it. Meanwhile we normal tortoise lovers will enjoy our critters.. without having to poke and probe them under some magnifying glass to see what isn't right with their meaningless theories???

The upcoming 'replies' should be rich.......

NERD
..mist'em 'til they drip...

From this - [ see egg-tooth ] -






8 months later...to this - [ compare head patterns ] -


----------



## terryo

What about Pio, Nerd. I'm still misting him until he drips, and his humid hide was always packed with moss, that he had to dig his way into. It has worked for me for three years now.


----------



## Redfoot NERD

terryo said:


> What about Pio, Nerd. I'm still misting him until he drips, and his humid hide was always packed with moss, that he had to dig his way into. It has worked for me for three years now.



Absolutely TerryO!

Another *PERFECT* example.. can't deny that!

I wonder how many examples _they_ need?

Baby "X" -






2 1/2 YEARS later -






See dates lower right?

NERD


----------



## Madkins007

I don't agree with Andy on this, and I firmly believe that humidity/misting/hydration is an important part of controlling pyramiding, but I CAN understand his take on Pio and other smooth Red-foots.

The thing is- you and NERD, and others are offering a good diet AND misting. Andy can just point at the diet part and say that the diet is the main or only reason they are smooth. 

The only way we could really show him to be in error would be to have well-designed controlled study with many torts over a long time, carefully testing for the influence of protein, humidity, hydration, etc. The Wiesner study sort of does this, but with kind of a small group of animals over a kind of short time. We would also need a good understanding of WHY humidity or misting work- what is the physiologically process going on?

We do have some good evidence on our side- Fife's and Wiesner's studies, the experiences of several people who have been doing it for a while with lots of tortoises of different species, etc. so I am certainly going to keep misting my herd- and I am going to keep feeding them as best I can, too.


----------



## Yvonne G

So, once again, Ed has been ambiguous with his post. I'm thinking he meant that Andy's response to Terry's post is total nonsense, because elsewhere the TT has mentioned that humidity is necessary for non-pyramiding. Not sure, but I THINK that's what he meant.


----------



## Redfoot NERD

Yes Mark..

Andy can just point at the diet part and say that the diet is the main or only reason they are smooth. 

.. because they can't admit that they are wrong! They have to prove to *us* that "misting" often daily and providing a hide where the carapace comes in direct contact with humidity is NOT the reason for 'smooth-growth'. But no.. they won't do that..
because they may find they have been wrong all these years. 

Andy Highfield suggests 'animal protein' as part of a redfoot diet.. so how can they say that a diet including too much protein causes rapid growth and abnormal scute formation. Who's in denial here anyway? They are convinced that the "right/no protein" diet will create 'proper' growth. If that's the case.. why all the pyramided torts in captivity?

This link has been on my 'Caresheet' for how many years? -

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/feeding_redfoots.html

Pat bought all of these from me a few years back - she lives in Washingtom state -






And later these -






.. and awhile later they look like this -






And this -











You know what care regime she follows!

How many more???

NERD

{ Tom all of this is your fault }


----------



## cdmay

Keeping the humidity high in the growing tortoise's enclosure is something I have advocated for years and direct misting is a good way to achieve that result.
But I would add that high humidity in itself will not automatically result in a healthy tortoise with a wild type carapace and normal leg scutes. 
It is just as important not to overfeed young tortoises and it is especially important not to overfeed with things that are far too rich in sugars and fats. More and more I find that the commercially available diets (yes, including Mazuri Tortoise Chow) will result in highly accelerated and unnatural growth--regardless of humidity--if they are fed in excess. Tortoises simply do not grow as fast in the wild as they do in captivity and this is a fact that many keepers seem to forget.
I don't know Andy Highfield nor have I read anything he has written but it could be that when he cautions against protein in the diet that he means EXCESSIVE amounts of protein. Keep in mind that even the leanest of commercially available cat or dog foods that we offer to our tortoises are probably many times higher in fats (and sugars) than any 'dead animal' protein that they scrounge up in nature. You have to keep this in mind too---it aint like there are little forest gnomes that come out at night and leave nice plates of dry cat food for wild tortoises. And dead animals don't just drop out of the trees or bushes every night for them to find either. A responsible keeper who wants his animals to live a long time (regardless of how 'nice' their shell looks) won't go nuts with these food items.
What actually causes pyramiding is most likely a combination of things with lack of humidity being the most common factor in captive animals. But I would quickly add that diet clearly plays a huge role as well.


----------



## Tom

Redfoot NERD said:


> { Tom all of this is your fault }



All of what is my fault? Tons of pictures of smooth torts? I wish I could take the credit for "all of this"!

Nothing makes me happier than pics of smooth, round, healthy looking tortoises..., except seeing them in person everyday for the first time in 20 years of trying!!!!!!!


----------



## tglazie

I don't know, Tom. There is certainly a great deal of variability when it comes to pyramiding. I've seen some animals with pyramiding so pronounced that the central scutes appeared to sink into the center of the animal's back, giving the tortoise a compacted car appearance. Tortoises such as these often have extremely overgrown beaks due to the lack of roughage in their diets. I acquired all of my sulcatas through various individuals who had, without exception, raised their animals indoors, in tanks, without access to humid hiding areas (micro-climates), feeding them nothing but commercial tortoise food and wet kitchen produce. These animals suffered horrendous pyramiding as a result. However, following introduction to an outdoor environment with grasses for grazing with access to a grazing pen filled with various cacti, succulents, and some matured lettuce and kale, these animals' pyramiding became less pronounced, as though they were outgrowing their early developmental flaws. I think the humidity theory probably holds some weight, given that all of my animals dig constantly in order to establish an appropriate micro-climate. However, I think it is incorrect to surmise that humidity is the only factor. Without access to regular UVB, tortoises will suffer pyramiding, as well as other problems associated with D3 deficiency. Without a nutritious and varied diet that includes many high fiber grasses and succulent plants, these beasts will suffer pyramiding, as well as malformed beaks and many of the more recognizable symptoms of trace element and mineral deficiency. Without ample room for exercise and exploration, I think sulcata tortoises also can get bored and eat more as a result. I've also noticed that appetite varies from tortoise to tortoise, though sulcatas are some of the most ravenous tortoises I've ever had the pleasure of keeping. Some, however, don't know when to quit. My biggest, Pigsy, will not stop eating. He will graze an enclosure until it is a moonscape if allowed to do so. I've also had to separate him from the others given that he will greedily push the smaller tortoises to the side and hog all of the food. My second largest, Chelsea, however, is more conservative and tends to browse rather than tear away the grass by the roots. My third largest, Pete, is similar to Chelsea in that he browses the new shoots of grass rather than consuming everything in sight. However, all of the animals seem to be displaying much smoother growth than they did previously. In addition to this, they are behaving in a much livelier fashion than they did when I'd first acquired them. In short, I would have to say that there is probably not one single factor that contributes to pyramiding. Life tends to be more complicated than this, and I think the key to reducing and eliminating pyramiding is to take a multi-faceted approach. But I am interested to see what results your experimentation will yield. 

T.G.


----------



## Annieski

I do believe TG's post has a great deal to offer to show the need for "balance". But it is the balance of the tortoise. In a captive situation, we strive to simulate the "wild"--- and with artificial means, it can be provided [ie, lights, substrate, weeds and grasses, hides]. What I think we fall short of is the cyclical nature of the wild enviornment. I also think that we get hung-up on "amimal protein" when in fact, there is a protein precentage in all the common greens and weeds and grasses we feed to our Tort's [in the foods section--post on Protein-- I posted a chart with the values of the most common greens offered to Tortoise]. During and just after the rainy season, is when rapid growth takes place in the wild. Tortoise are designed to "conserve", I believe in preparation for the LESS plentiful time of year[it would certainly explain why those "sailors" scooped-up so many tortoise for fresh food--and I doubt they fed them on the journey]. Our captives never have an absense of plentiful [and thus, never have a decrease of "rich greens"]. I do believe that it is all the factors that have to complete the enviornment of the tort for proper growth and optimal health.


----------



## Redfoot NERD

EVERYBODY..... we are talking about "pyramiding".. NOT the result of BAD/WRONG diets. 

However a "not-so-good" diet with daily exposure to ample humidity directly on carapace will result in a smooth(er) carapace appearance. This is accomplished in nature by burrowing/crawling into an area where humidity is high and/or comes into direct contact with the tortoises carapace.. ie. leaf litter.. vegetation/heavy plant growth.. and in the case of sulcatas' actual burrows where they urinate, etc. to escape the heat and maintain needed humidity levels.

Tom and I have discussed this at length on the phone and again we are attempting to clerify the affects of humidity DIRECTLY on the carapace.

Last summer I acquired this redfoot tortoise that was raised in an aquarium.. the actual report from the "rescuer" as told by the person that raised this tortoise:

"The young lady states that she kept her 'turtle' in a 55 gal. aquarium her entire life.. bought at a 'chain' pet store. She says her turtle was about 3-4" when she got her and she fed her Reptomin turtle pellets and some times lettuce and would give her a bath every other day. A couple times a week during the summer she would take her outside and she would eat the grass in the yard.. which she thought was strange for a turtle. She was kept on "turtle-carpet" and she had a waterdish which she soon outgrew.

This is the worst part..... she said her turtle got so big that she couldn't turn around in her cage.. so it was time to take her to the 'turtle-rescue' place so she could be provided for better."

Even tho' this creature was kept as described.. and her plastron is at least 2x as thick ( and quite 'distorted' ) as any I've ever seen at this size.. her carapace is amazingly smooth! 

She is right at 10" SCL shown here -












She stayed under the Rose-of-Sharon in the corner of the "quaratine" enclosure for almost a week before coming out and finally eating -











.. most likely the first 'real' food she had ever eaten. 






Since I was sure she was 'clean' [ after being tested by the "rescue" organization ] she fit right in a couple months later among the reat of the group here.. although she was a little shy initially as can be expeted - she had never seen another tortoise her entire life.

The point is - although [ we can imagine how this tortoise looked as a result of being "farm-hatched" and fed the first year or so ] she was kept and fed all the wrong ways/things.. the fact that her carapace was subjected to water directly on a regular basis leads me to believe once again the importance of "misting 'til they drip"....... the sooner the better.

And again how many well/overfed kept dry tortoises have we seen in captivity that are pyramided?.. not obese from over-feeding! ( or fed the wrong things )

BTW - this post was started before Annieski posted theirs.

NERD


----------



## Annieski

I thought my post was in direct response to TG's post before me. If I replied in the wrong sequence--I apologise. I only have Mortimer [a Sulcata]-- and that is the tortoise family I can only relate to in my posts [I have learned here, there are different requirements for each type of tortoise]. That being said, did I miss the part about the tortoise referred to in Nerd's post that it was kept in "water" being that the original owner thought it was a turtle? If I missed it-- I'm sorry---If I didn't---I'm confused. If this was a private discussion--- I apologise for the post.


----------



## Redfoot NERD

Annieski said:


> I thought my post was in direct response to TG's post before me. If I replied in the wrong sequence--I apologise. I only have Mortimer [a Sulcata]-- and that is the tortoise family I can only relate to in my posts [I have learned here, there are different requirements for each type of tortoise]. That being said, did I miss the part about the tortoise referred to in Nerd's post that it was kept in "water" being that the original owner thought it was a turtle? If I missed it-- I'm sorry---If I didn't---I'm confused. If this was a private discussion--- I apologise for the post.



Your post was Annie.. because it takes me so long to type and post pictures you did respond in order. 

The tortoise kept in the aquarium was simply referred to as a turtle by the original 'owner' because they didn't know the difference. And was probly going on what was told them by the pet store.. on how to care for it! Or who knows where.

My real point was that the correct diet does NOT ensure perfect carapace growth.. and even a "less-than-perfect" diet can yield a smooth(er) carapace when exposed to humidity directly on the carapace! Meaning 'diet' is not the determining factor.. even tho' that's been said.. along with chronological pic documentation a number of times.

NERD


----------



## Annieski

I thank you Terry, for your reply. I still do find it difficult to read about a "care sheet" that stresses the humidity level for Redfoots, and think it can be used interchangablly for Sulcata. If I have really lost the whole concept or strayed from the intent of the thread--- again I apologise for the error and thanks for taking the time to respond.


----------



## chairman

Annieski said:


> I thank you Terry, for your reply. I still do find it difficult to read about a "care sheet" that stresses the humidity level for Redfoots, and think it can be used interchangablly for Sulcata. If I have really lost the whole concept or strayed from the intent of the thread--- again I apologise for the error and thanks for taking the time to respond.



I think that what some people are starting to advocate is that young sulcatas that grow up in warmer, brighter redfoot habitats are highly unlikely to pyramid. They're even more unlikely to pyramid if you also make sure that the diet, UV, and exercise requirements are also met. Tom's results, as well as those of others, certainly seem to bear this out. Whether or not there is any KEY factor in pyramiding has yet to be scientifically determined, but humidity sure looks like the best candidate so far.


----------



## Tom

T.G., All the things you mentioned are necessary to raise a smooth, HEALTHY tortoise, but we are talking about two separate issues. I'm only talking about pyramiding as a single stand alone entity. You CAN raise a smooth tortoise without all the things you mentioned as long as the humidity and moisture level is high. It might not be very healthy, but it will be smooth. This is a fact. I've seen it with my own eyes multiple times in FL and Louisiana.

What you are advocating IS what we should all be striving for and we are in complete agreement on what it takes to raise a healthy tortoise.


----------



## Tom

chairman said:


> Annieski said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thank you Terry, for your reply. I still do find it difficult to read about a "care sheet" that stresses the humidity level for Redfoots, and think it can be used interchangablly for Sulcata. If I have really lost the whole concept or strayed from the intent of the thread--- again I apologise for the error and thanks for taking the time to respond.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that what some people are starting to advocate is that young sulcatas that grow up in warmer, brighter redfoot habitats are highly unlikely to pyramid. They're even more unlikely to pyramid if you also make sure that the diet, UV, and exercise requirements are also met. Tom's results, as well as those of others, certainly seem to bear this out. Whether or not there is any KEY factor in pyramiding has yet to be scientifically determined, but humidity sure looks like the best candidate so far.
Click to expand...


Annieski, I've thought a lot about the feast and famine regime of wild tortoises too. I'm sure this plays a part in the smoothness of the wild caught ones, but I don't know how to safely implement this into my captive care routine. Really I don't know if I even want to. SWe call the area where sulcatas come from a desert, but its really humid there during the 3 month rainy season when all the grow is occurring. I don't know how to simulate the other nine months, where there is a lot less to eat. Really, what needs to happen is for someone who knows torts, like a TFO member, to go over there for a couple of years and watch what they do in the wild. Innumerable lessons could be learned from that to help captive torts.

Mike, your above post touches on several things that I have been meaning to address. For one thing, I'm advocating higher humidity and shell spraying for most species, depending on where you live and how they are kept. I have raised many species and none of them have ever had perfect shells, until now. Its very dry where I am, so if you lived somewhere more humid, you wouldn't need to go as far as me. I don't think any species will be harmed by picking them up, removing them from their enclosure, squirting some water on their carapace and putting them back in their enclosure. I've you have a leopard in New Orleans, doing this won't create excess humidity that you don't need and I'll bet it will prevent pyramiding.

I am waiting until the 90 day mark to officially say that I've solved the pyramiding problem for ME and MY situation. Its sort of arbitrary, but 90 days is when I got Daisy and she was pretty lumpy. All the other hatchlings that I've raised were good and lumpy by 90 days too. I figure that if these stay this smooth until the 90 day mark, I will have satisfied MY requirements and answered my own questions about it.

I've been thinking about all the hatchlings that I will be having in the next few years. It is my intention to try out all the different aspects of pyramiding prevention. Right now, I am using the "shotgun" approach and keeping everything all wet all the time. Multiple soaks and sprayings every day, super humid, water on the food, drinking/soaking water always available, etc... Its working. Its working perfectly, in fact. In the future I would like to try out some different things to try and find out exactly what is preventing the pyramiding.

I want to raise some hatchlings in the house, out of my humid reptile room, and raise them Richard Fife style. Dry aspen bedding, dry air, and a humid hide box. It works for him. I'd like to try it too. When it fails for other people, I'm speculating that the hatchlings were kept too dry, PRIOR to the new owners getting them.

I want to try some with no forced soaks, but with shell spraying several times a day and drinking water available.

I want to try some with daily calcium supplementation and some with none.

The possibilities are endless. These three current little hatchlings are my first ever that are not pyramided. It will be hard for me to NOT wet the newer ones all the time, but I really do want to know what it is that is at work here. I'll do a comparison post at 90 days with my current ones and pics of Daisy at 90 days and now.

Thanks to everyone for all the thought provoking input. And a very special thanks to everyone who has posted pics of smooth tortoises of any species.


----------



## spikethebest

Tom said:


> Really, what needs to happen is for someone who knows torts, like a TFO member, to go over there for a couple of years and watch what they do in the wild. Innumerable lessons could be learned from that to help captive torts.



I volunteer for that job!!!!


----------



## Michael Bird

I know this test is primarily aimed at Sulcatas, but I'd like to add my own results with my Jordanian Greek if you don't mind...

When I acquired Gracie, her shell was 5.5 inches long and she had been living in a glass aquarium with a thin layer of newspaper on the bottom of the cage and a small water bowl that she could drink from but could not soak in and she was not ever misted or soaked that I am aware of. She only ate iceberg lettuce and was never given anything else except a rare baby carrot as a treat. (I don't know the full history since the person I got her from only had her for a few months after getting him from a family who thought she was a box turtle.) While she wasn't ever really pyramiding significantly (I haven't been able to find any reference to a Greek with a pyramid shell, so I don't know if they can pyramid the way sulcatas can), there are very distinct and almost jagged edges between the old growth lines on her shell with mild "bumps" at the middle of each scute.

I have been soaking her at least once a week (usually more) since I got her, and regularly mist her box to keep the 3-4" deep layer of aspen shavings from drying out. The ambient air in the house is usually between 50-60% due to the evaporative cooler so she gets humidity all of the time even when I don't make it "rain" on her. She frequently burrows beneath the aspen where the humidity is even higher.

Since she came to live with me almost exactly four months ago on March 24th, she has had five separate growths with visible white growth lines between the scutes, adding a total of 3/4" to her shell length. I can't find any "official" source to say for sure, but I think that's pretty significant/fast growth for an adult Greek tortoise, likely because I'm feeding her a lot more than she got in the past, with more of a variety. The new growth on her shell is so perfectly smooth that I have to look VERY carefully to identify the lines between those five new growth periods, and in some places I can only see them with a magnifying glass.

Common "expert knowledge" seems to say that extremely rapid growth due to overeating is a primary cause of pyramiding. However, mine had ragged shell growth when she was significantly underfed and malnourished, while she's growing amazingly well when I admit that I am probably feeding her quite a bit more than she really needs, just because it makes me happy to think that she's happy when she gobbles up everything that I give to her. 

It might be a coincidence, but I don't really think so, that she is living in a fairly humid environment now and has perfect growth while growing very quickly, when her growth in the past was not smooth at all even though she had to be growing slowly due to the lack of nutrition in her diet..


----------



## Annieski

Tom, Should my thinking be of any worth, I don't think it would be that difficult to try--- simply reduce the amount and # of feedings. I keep thinking of "shmily 1605" the member who's Sulcata hatchling got lost in shipping. Even with the 7 day span of no food, no water, ?no light source or substrate--the Babe was ALIVE. I know in my posts ,I seem to fixate on certain thoughts, but I do think the whole "seasonal" changes thing has something to add to the mix. Adaptation of enviornmental changes happen over years and years, for a reason.


----------



## tglazie

Annieski said:


> I do believe TG's post has a great deal to offer to show the need for "balance". But it is the balance of the tortoise. In a captive situation, we strive to simulate the "wild"--- and with artificial means, it can be provided [ie, lights, substrate, weeds and grasses, hides]. What I think we fall short of is the cyclical nature of the wild enviornment.



Well, in South Texas, this really happens for me on it's own. The weather becomes unbearably hot here in the spring, summer, and fall. My Greek and Marginated tortoise colonies eat significantly less and tend to prefer dried leaves over fresh ones at this time. I always ensure they have ample amounts of water for drinking, and I have a large live oak under which I place their shelters, ensuring ample shade as well. 

However, to Tom's point, I don't know if there's a way to safely replicate the extreme conditions of a sulcata's natural habitat, where dry season temps can run in the 120s F, leaving the tortoise burrow-bound without food or water. Given that these torts have such high clutch densities and clutch so frequently, I would have to surmise that most of the hatchlings don't make it, that their environment is a harsh one where few survive. 

T.G.


----------



## Tom

Update and Pics:

Tuck:













Tulee:













Trey:













They are all doing very well and seem to like their aquatic lifestyle. Interestingly, they don't like to go into their humid hide box much and no matter how hot it is, they like to lay around the perimeter of the hot spot. They are typical sulcata babies. Very active and very hungry all the time. It is astounding how much food they can put away. I had to start using a bigger lid for their food. They eat everything I offer them and don't slow down for the calcium or vitamin powder. Their sunning cage is roughly 32"x8' and they run the whole thing. Occasionally one will stop to gorge or rest under the log, but mostly they exercise.

I'm trying to feed these guys the same way I fed my adults when they were babies, but I have to admit that I am feeding them a little more. By most peoples estimations and going by the outdated care sheets, this should make them more likely to pyramid.

I was pretty sure things would go this way, but I was, admittedly, a little worried. I have raised nothing but pyramided torts for 20 years, so you can imagine the expectations and pressure I felt about these new little guys. When you fail so many times after so many years, you almost never expect to succeed. Add to that the pretty bold statements I have been making, based on years of observation, and failure this time would have been embarrassing to say the least. I stuck my neck out like that because I don't care about my reputation, my feelings or my pride. I care about ending pyramiding. A whole lot more still needs to be learned, but here are three, smooth, ten week old hatchlings, raised by a guy whose never raised a smooth tortoise in his life. I've done everything the same as I always have with ONE exception: Water. Lots of it in every way. Humidity everywhere indoors and out. Soaks several times a day. Spraying several times a day. A full, clean water bowl always available in the enclosure. And I spray their food with water, before, and sometimes during, every meal.

I don't know if one single above element has made all the difference or a combination of all of them. What I DO know is that whatever I am doing, it is working!

Words just cannot describe the joy I feel every time I lay eyes on these little babies. Beyond being beautiful little torts AND the offspring of adults that I raised from hatchlings, what they symbolize is monumental to me.

Listen people. No one ever has to raise a bumpy baby ever again. We just have to get the word out. Keep them warm and wet. Please help me.


----------



## spikethebest

I cant wait until I can see and hold these little torts again. They really are a sight to see. go Tom! The Tortoise Pioneer! 

that last frontier in the world of torts.... finding and ending the cause of pyramiding!


----------



## terryo

Tom, this is wonderful and I'm just so happy for you. They are apsolutely beautiful. 
I don't know if this has been answered before or not, and if it has I apologize for asking again....I can't read through this whole thread to see if it has. Do you feel this is just for Sulcata or for other tortoises as well? I was reading an article in Reptile Mag. on Redfoots by Dave Fogel, and he feels that it isn't humidity, and he said he has never seen a smooth Redfoot that was raised in captivity. I didn't buy the magazine, I was just sitting in Barns and Nobel reading the article, so I hope I am not misquoting him.


----------



## Redfoot NERD

terryo said:


> Tom, this is wonderful and I'm just so happy for you. They are apsolutely beautiful.
> I don't know if this has been answered before or not, and if it has I apologize for asking again....I can't read through this whole thread to see if it has. Do you feel this is just for Sulcata or for other tortoises as well? I was reading an article in Reptile Mag. on Redfoots by Dave Fogel, and he feels that it isn't humidity, and he said he has never seen a smooth Redfoot that was raised in captivity. I didn't buy the magazine, I was just sitting in Barns and Nobel reading the article, so I hope I am not misquoting him.





We'll have to send Dave Fogel this pic of a five ( 5 ) year old Brazilian redfoot tortoise hatched by Carl May in March '05 and raised by Terry Kilgore from May '05 -






Tom.. you think we could pass this off as 'smooth'? [ pic taken April 2010 ]

Wonder what he would think.. not to mention Terry O's'.. etc., etc., etc.!!!

NERD


----------



## Tom

terryo said:


> Tom, this is wonderful and I'm just so happy for you. They are apsolutely beautiful.
> I don't know if this has been answered before or not, and if it has I apologize for asking again....I can't read through this whole thread to see if it has. Do you feel this is just for Sulcata or for other tortoises as well? I was reading an article in Reptile Mag. on Redfoots by Dave Fogel, and he feels that it isn't humidity, and he said he has never seen a smooth Redfoot that was raised in captivity. I didn't buy the magazine, I was just sitting in Barns and Nobel reading the article, so I hope I am not misquoting him.



I gave your questions some thought. First, about the Dave Fogel thing. Prior to TFO, and Terry K and you, I had never seen a smooth captive raised redfoot either, including my own from years ago. Remember that this humidity/hydration/moisture stuff is "Brand Spankin' New" to most of the world. Even the hardcore tortoise world. You, Richard Fife, and Terry K. are on the very leading edge of this new wave. I'm merely bringing up the rear and following leaders like you. Pio, in my opinion, ought to be the poster child for things done right. No offense to Terry K or any of his amazingly beautiful torts, but he is an experienced expert and the lay person would expect his animals to be perfect. You, TerryO, are new to the redfoot world and the "average Joe" will be able to relate to your situation much better. One person, with one tort, following and excellent, cutting edge, care sheet and getting fantastic results.

As far as other species and how this pertains to them:
I can only make educated guesses here. I do intend to prove this with several other species in the coming years. I've got Leopards hatching next month, and I've been talking about redfoots, Hermann's and CDTs, with a few notable breeders.

These things are just my opinion, not facts. I believe most tortoise species are kept too dry and not hydrated enough. I'm talking about the general public, not the experience knowledgeable lot we have here on the forum. I believe this is especially true for the "desert" species and not as much for the Mediterranean or forest species. The Med. species seem to have lower water requirements and they usually turn out smooth in most of the world. I, however, have caused pyramiding in several Testudo species. I raised them too dry, plain and simple. The forest torts are generally kept wetter and more humid anyway, but judging from all the pyramided redfoots, not wet enough. Terry K first introduced the shell spraying to me and Richard Fife confirmed it.

It is my opinion that as long as temps are kept in the 80's around the clock that it can't be too wet for a baby sulcata or Leopard. I am 100% sure of this for sulcatas, but there is still some doubt with the Leopards as for some reason SOME of them SEEM prone to URTIs. Once I raise my own Leopards in sloppy wet, swampy conditions, I will have a much stronger opinion on this matter, but for now, I exercise caution in my recommendations. Richard Fife advocates dry aspen bedding and a humid hide box as the way to raise a smooth Leopard. This seems way too dry to me given what I've learned in the last few months, but it seems to work in most cases. The biggest factor in my mind is those first few, critical, formative weeks. By the time someone gets one of Richard's tortoises, they are already head started to be smooth. As opposed to most other breeders that start them on dry substrate, in a dry tank with a dessicating heat lamp for the first few weeks.

Interestingly, some of the forest torts, like redfoots, seem more prone to shell rot and fungal infections than the "desert" species. Taking into consideration the guidance of others, I believe that this is because the baby sulcatas and leos poop and pee in their tight little burrows and hidey holes to keep humidity up and their shells and immune systems have evolved to resist infection in such a nasty environment. Whereas the forest torts seem to stay above ground and normally move away from such filth.

In short, I don't think more warm water soaks, shell spraying or food spraying will be detrimental to any species. Too much constant high humidity MIGHT be a problem for some species, some of the time.

Also remember we are talking about raising babies here, not caring for adults. I do not keep my adult sulcatas 80-85 round the clock or 80-100% humidity either. I do soak and spray them a lot though.


----------



## RichardS

Tom, the tortoises look great. I don't want to knock anything you've done, but I am concerned by how much you water your tortoises. 

I think I read somewhere on another thread that you soak them 3 times a day and spay them up to 10 times per day. How is that replicating natural conditions? Its so extreme, its almost impossible to justify. How will you formulate your conclusion? If I soak my sulcata 2 times a day and only spray it 5 times a day, and it pyramids, did I not do enough? I really like where this is going and I am interested in your response. What is your justification for soaking 3 times day? 

Thanks!


----------



## ekm5015

Tom,

How old are your babies that you posted pics of today? Just curious to get some perspective on where my little guy is.

Great job so far by the way.


----------



## terryo

This is really very exciting for you Tom, and all of us watching you and those babies.
Terry K......Where would you attribute learning that humidity played such an important part in pyramiding?


----------



## Tom

ekm5015 said:


> Tom,
> 
> How old are your babies that you posted pics of today? Just curious to get some perspective on where my little guy is.
> 
> Great job so far by the way.



They are right around 9 weeks. The three of them hatched between May 15th and 25th. Those pics were taken this morning.


----------



## Redfoot NERD

Keep it up Tom!!! Great Q? Terry O!!!

The following may surprise - hopefully 'enlightens' - many.

It was not that long ago that I also was frustrated, confused and doubtful. I'll do my best to tell my story as complete as possible.. of course with corresponding pics - some are actually "scanned" from prints [ before digital! ]

I agree in part with what Richard stated about "over-doing" the soaks and spraying, etc. I also believe that the odds of getting 'pyramiding' from/after "over-doing" is probly 328,963,1247,047,194,495,491 to 1.

To answer Terry O's Q? -

Terry it was really like your ability to visualize anything pertaining to outdoor landscaping, enclosures, vivariums, etc.! It just comes/came naturally - maybe like that's what we do?

I _simply_ observed the situation/facts/results present.. let them incubate for a short while and the 'conclusion' hatched! 

About Redfoots and Leopards.. they don't co-habitate [ make note of DATES in lower right of some of the pics.. from the first camera that was set to embed them for this very reason apparently ]

Look who's coming to dinner! Romaine/Kale? [ it gets worse............ ]












The redfoots were '98 CH that grew up quite bumpy -











Shown above at various sizes.. they were raised-up during very warm/humid seasons together outside -





Don't tell me about how you guys have done it wrong!


The Redfoots were fed no fruit or protein.. kept dry inside on hay for the Leopards and never "misted"!

The Leopards were subjected to high humidity here in TN.

They were all very small when housed together.. 4" CH redfoots and 4" WC leopards ------- YIKES!!!!!

I saw 'bumpy' Flat-tails ( a spider ssp. ) at the ZOO -






They saw remarkable results after providing "humid-hides" for their hatchlings!

I have "Mediterranean" breeder friends face the same dilemma, etc. Same results.

And I did speak with Richard Fife on the phone.. in early '03 maybe { not sure } I think I was asking him about sexing the Leopards.. and we may or may not have discussed redfoots at that time.

No humid hide for these guys -






It only took a few months..








A few pages before my article in the Sept. '06 Reptiles magazine - Jon Coote wrote about 'pyramiding' also! He was/is with a major tortoise nutrition manufacturer.. among other things. He mentioned how it has been a "slow-to-accept" concept for him also.

But to answer your Q? Terry O - I decided when I got my very first redfoot hatchling.. in Feb. '05.. that I would simply raise them totally opposite of how I described I kept the '98 hatchlings. I began to "mist-them-til-they-drip" and haven't stopped! Luck?, Coincidence? or Fate?.. there you have it.

Are they healthier since I've 'improved' their diet or habitat? - maybe!? 

Originally I kept the cypress mulch entirely too wet and that created plastron 'fungus' issues - like Tom and I discussed on the phone and he mentioned on his last post. So their substrate doesn't need to be "wet".

Bottom line - "carapace contact" - with [ substantial ] humidity.. forms/always it to grow SMOOTH! There.. I've said it.

The proof is in our on-going pics.


----------



## Tom

RichardS said:


> Tom, the tortoises look great. I don't want to knock anything you've done, but I am concerned by how much you water your tortoises.
> 
> I think I read somewhere on another thread that you soak them 3 times a day and spay them up to 10 times per day. How is that replicating natural conditions? Its so extreme, its almost impossible to justify. How will you formulate your conclusion? If I soak my sulcata 2 times a day and only spray it 5 times a day, and it pyramids, did I not do enough? I really like where this is going and I am interested in your response. What is your justification for soaking 3 times day?
> 
> Thanks!



Very good question. It is a very reasonable question given the current state of sulcata knowledge. Let me tell you how I got to this point and also where I am.

In the late 80's and early 90's I worked in pet shops down by the beach in L.A. It was pretty common for people to bring in sick CDTs that were living in their backyards. The cold, clammy, beach air would cause these guys to get URTIs. We'd ship them inland to dryer, hotter areas and they'd usually get all better. So when CB sulcatas and leopards started hitting the scene around this time, the common knowledge was that since they were from the African desert, you better keep them hot and dry or they would get a URTI, just like the CDTs kept near the beach. So all of my early sulcatas went into "beef jerky maker" style set-ups. Dry substrate, hot bulb AND CHE. No water bowl, to cut down on humidity. I would soak them periodically, but then dry them off with a towel before putting them back in their hot box.

This system produced copious quantities of seemingly healthy, yet pyramided tortoises. For nearly 20 years I banged my head against the wall unable to figure out why they were pyramiding, even though I was doing everything "right". Since my job takes me all over the world, I was always checking out the local tortoises. I saw leopards in South Africa in 1999 and again in 2005. I saw smooth sulcatas that seemed to be doing fine in FL and Louisiana with no sign of any URTI. Early on, I assumed they were wild caught because they were so smooth. The people didn't know anything about proper tortoise care, so I (incorrectly) assumed that their smooth tortoises were really wild caught and they just didn't know any better. 

Fast forward to 2007. I get hold of a copy of "Leopard Tortoises" by Richard and Jerry Fife. I've read tons of reptile and tortoise books, but none had ever mentioned humidity for baby sulcatas and leopards before. 15 lightbulbs went off in my head. DING! Everything, all the puzzle pieces, started coming together in my head. I had seen thousands of tortoises in South Africa, but not one single baby anywhere. DING! Maybe those people in FL and Louisiana weren't as ignorant as I had ignorantly assumed. DING! The beach tortoises were sick because it was cold AND damp. DING! Babies stay hidden in humid places, like root balls and burrows. DING! Etc... MYSTERY SOLVED!!!

I was quite upset with my self for not putting it all together sooner, but nobody else had either. Even the Fife's discovered it quite by accident. If anybody knew about it before them, they weren't telling anybody and they certainly weren't publishing it in any books. Thanks, again, to the Fife's for changing the tortoise world.

So its 2007, I've just had a 20 year mystery solved for me, what do I do now? Go get a new baby and try it out, of course! Enter Daisy:





This is Daisy, the day after I got her at 3 months old. You can see that she already had significant pyramiding. I stuck her in her enclosure on sani-chips (my usual tortoise substrate at that time) and gave her a nice humid hide box with some bed-a-beast. After a few months the pyramiding showed no sign of slowing down. I was very frustrated. I started talking to people and decided that I needed to make the whole enclosure more humid. Went to Lowes and got the orchid bark mix. Still did nothing. Next I covered the top, made the substrate much more damp and humidified the room. After a year of gradually making it more and more humid and wet, I realized two things. She was not going to get a respiratory infection or shell rot AND the pyramiding wasn't stopping. This where where I realized the next piece of the puzzle. Humidity will PREVENT pyramiding in a hatchling, NOT STOP pyramiding once it starts. Daisy's new growth does seem to be coming in smoother. Over the course of 2009 I made it wetter and wetter in Daisy's enclosure just to see what, if anything it would do. It has been SWAMPY in there for a year and a half now. There has been absolutely no ill effect and the new growth does appear to be smoothing out.

So in Jan 2010, I discover TFO at the reptile show. I met Littlefoot and talked to a pretty TFO girl. Finding this forum was like breaking open the Hoover Dam for me. The information flow was suddenly gushing after 20 years of a tiny, slow trickle. I learned that the humidity thing was already circulating out in the tortoise world. I learned about Terry K. and TerryO spraying the redfoot shells and growing them as smooth as any wild caught. I learned about dehydration being a problem in babies of desert species (Thanks Danny). I immediately began hitting Daisy with the shotgun approach. All wet all the time. Soaks, sprays, humidifiers, food spraying, substrate wetting, etc... Now understand, I've been keeping sulcatas for 20 years. I got my first turtle 30 years ago. I know what to watch for as far as health problems AND what to do about it should any surface. None did. Still haven't. Not in any way. I've actually considered making Daisy's tub into an aquatic habitat with a few haul outs just to see what would happen. That's really the only way it could be any wetter.

After two years of all wet all the time, I knew that water ain't gonna hurt a sulcata. Now with my hatchlings coming, I had to make a plan. Not too long ago Danny did a post suggesting that pyramiding was due to major internal organ damage caused by chronic dehydration in hatchlings. Danny's post explained that they could dehydrate even over night in a typical dry tortoise set up. Breathing humid air helps to prevent this dehydration.

I was determined to grow these babies smooth, so if dehydration is a factor in pyramiding, it won't be for mine. I knew that lots of water won't hurt a sulcata as long as the temps are kept up in the 80's, sooooooo here we are.

I have not ever seen any evidence that too much hydration is bad for a tortoise. If they aren't getting URTIs or any kind of shell rot, what is your concern about all the water? Another thing to consider is that I live in a very hot, dry area. What works for me might be too much for someone in the San Francisco Bay area or South Florida.

If you soak twice a day and spray 5 times a day and your tortoise still pyramids, something will have to be terribly wrong. But remember: Humidity, moisture and hydration will PREVENT pyramiding. It will not necessarily STOP pyramiding that is already underway.

How is it replicating natural conditions? I don't know if it is or isn't. I honestly don't know what natural conditions for a wild sulcata hatchling are. Do you? I've never even seen one in the wild. I do know they stay underground in humid burrows. Mine come out whenever it rains and drink and soak in puddles, even at night. I don't know how wild hatchlings find enough food underground, so they must come up some of the time, some how. I can look up the weather in those areas and see the above ground temps and humidity, but I don't think that has much to do with a baby. I don't think replicating the wild is always a good thing. I think replicating whatever is best for them in captivity is best.

What is my justification for all this? Glad you asked. Here it is:


----------



## spikethebest

i love butt shots! and tiny wrinkled legs...


----------



## terryo

Redfoot NERD said:


> Keep it up Tom!!! Great Q? Terry O!!!
> 
> The following may surprise - hopefully 'enlightens' - many.
> 
> It was not that long ago that I also was frustrated, confused and doubtful. I'll do my best to tell my story as complete as possible.. of course with corresponding pics - some are actually "scanned" from prints [ before digital! ]
> 
> I agree in part with what Richard stated about "over-doing" the soaks and spraying, etc. I also believe that the odds of getting 'pyramiding' from/after "over-doing" is probly 328,963,1247,047,194,495,491 to 1.
> 
> To answer Terry O's Q? -
> 
> Terry it was really like your ability to visualize anything pertaining to outdoor landscaping, enclosures, vivariums, etc.! It just comes/came naturally - maybe like that's what we do?
> 
> I _simply_ observed the situation/facts/results present.. let them incubate for a short while and the 'conclusion' hatched!
> 
> About Redfoots and Leopards.. they don't co-habitate [ make note of DATES in lower right of some of the pics.. from the first camera that was set to embed them for this very reason apparently ]
> 
> Look who's coming to dinner! Romaine/Kale? [ it gets worse............ ]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The redfoots were '98 CH that grew up quite bumpy -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shown above at various sizes.. they were raised-up during very warm/humid seasons together outside -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't tell me about how you guys have done it wrong!
> 
> 
> The Redfoots were fed no fruit or protein.. kept dry inside on hay for the Leopards and never "misted"!
> 
> The Leopards were subjected to high humidity here in TN.
> 
> They were all very small when housed together.. 4" CH redfoots and 4" WC leopards ------- YIKES!!!!!
> 
> I saw 'bumpy' Flat-tails ( a spider ssp. ) at the ZOO -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They saw remarkable results after providing "humid-hides" for their hatchlings!
> 
> I have "Mediterranean" breeder friends face the same dilemma, etc. Same results.
> 
> And I did speak with Richard Fife on the phone.. in early '03 maybe { not sure } I think I was asking him about sexing the Leopards.. and we may or may not have discussed redfoots at that time.
> 
> No humid hide for these guys -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It only took a few months..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A few pages before my article in the Sept. '06 Reptiles magazine - Jon Coote wrote about 'pyramiding' also! He was/is with a major tortoise nutrition manufacturer.. among other things. He mentioned how it has been a "slow-to-accept" concept for him also.
> 
> But to answer your Q? Terry O - I decided when I got my very first redfoot hatchling.. in Feb. '05.. that I would simply raise them totally opposite of how I described I kept the '98 hatchlings. I began to "mist-them-til-they-drip" and haven't stopped! Luck?, Coincidence? or Fate?.. there you have it.
> 
> Are they healthier since I've 'improved' their diet or habitat? - maybe!?
> 
> Originally I kept the cypress mulch entirely too wet and that created plastron 'fungus' issues - like Tom and I discussed on the phone and he mentioned on his last post. So their substrate doesn't need to be "wet".
> 
> Bottom line - "carapace contact" - with [ substantial ] humidity.. forms/always it to grow SMOOTH! There.. I've said it.
> 
> The proof is in our on-going pics.



Wait a minute Nerd....didn't you tell me that Carl (cdmay) was your mentor and taught you most of everything you know about humidity for your Red's? I remember you told me that you and he e-mailed and phoned back and forth (you even told me you saved all his e-mails). In fact I remembered this post you made.
Redfoot NERD 
Posting Freak

Posts: 1,766
Joined: Dec 2007 
Reputation: 8 

DWARF "Cherryhead" vs "Regular" redfoot 
This one hopefully will answer a lot of Q?'s!!!

Everyone has a Guru / Mentor - Carl was mine. He is in FL.. and shared a couple of his '05 Brazilian's with me.


----------



## RichardS

Tom said:


> I have not ever seen any evidence that too much hydration is bad for a tortoise. If they aren't getting URTIs or any kind of shell rot, what is your concern about all the water?



You've missed the point of my questions. How did you justify spraying 10 times per day, vs. 5 times, vs. 2 times, etc? Why not spray them 50 times per day or 100 times? If a little is good, more is better, right?

Are you familiar with the concept of diminishing marginal returns? By going so far past what most of us (with jobs) would consider feasible, you have alienated yourself and your results. 

Let me break it down again. If I don't spray my tortoise it will pyramid. Gotcha. If I spray it 10 times per day, it won't pyramid. Gotcha. What if I spray it twice a day? What if I spray in 5 times per day? How do we know what will happen?

Wouldn't you have had better results if you could have told us, I only spray twice a day? Where is the fine line (or balance)? It would have helped your conclusion. 



Tom said:


> If you soak twice a day and spray 5 times a day and your tortoise still pyramids, something will have to be terribly wrong. But remember: Humidity, moisture and hydration will PREVENT pyramiding.



But that isn't what you are doing. You are soaking 3 times per day and spraying 10 times per day.


----------



## Redfoot NERD

terryo said:


> Redfoot NERD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Keep it up Tom!!! Great Q? Terry O!!!
> 
> The following may surprise - hopefully 'enlightens' - many.
> 
> It was not that long ago that I also was frustrated, confused and doubtful. I'll do my best to tell my story as complete as possible.. of course with corresponding pics - some are actually "scanned" from prints [ before digital! ]
> 
> I agree in part with what Richard stated about "over-doing" the soaks and spraying, etc. I also believe that the odds of getting 'pyramiding' from/after "over-doing" is probly 328,963,1247,047,194,495,491 to 1.
> 
> To answer Terry O's Q? -
> 
> Terry it was really like your ability to visualize anything pertaining to outdoor landscaping, enclosures, vivariums, etc.! It just comes/came naturally - maybe like that's what we do?
> 
> I _simply_ observed the situation/facts/results present.. let them incubate for a short while and the 'conclusion' hatched!
> 
> About Redfoots and Leopards.. they don't co-habitate [ make note of DATES in lower right of some of the pics.. from the first camera that was set to embed them for this very reason apparently ]
> 
> Look who's coming to dinner! Romaine/Kale? [ it gets worse............ ]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The redfoots were '98 CH that grew up quite bumpy -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shown above at various sizes.. they were raised-up during very warm/humid seasons together outside -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't tell me about how you guys have done it wrong!
> 
> 
> The Redfoots were fed no fruit or protein.. kept dry inside on hay for the Leopards and never "misted"!
> 
> The Leopards were subjected to high humidity here in TN.
> 
> They were all very small when housed together.. 4" CH redfoots and 4" WC leopards ------- YIKES!!!!!
> 
> I saw 'bumpy' Flat-tails ( a spider ssp. ) at the ZOO -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They saw remarkable results after providing "humid-hides" for their hatchlings!
> 
> I have "Mediterranean" breeder friends face the same dilemma, etc. Same results.
> 
> And I did speak with Richard Fife on the phone.. in early '03 maybe { not sure } I think I was asking him about sexing the Leopards.. and we may or may not have discussed redfoots at that time.
> 
> No humid hide for these guys -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It only took a few months..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A few pages before my article in the Sept. '06 Reptiles magazine - Jon Coote wrote about 'pyramiding' also! He was/is with a major tortoise nutrition manufacturer.. among other things. He mentioned how it has been a "slow-to-accept" concept for him also.
> 
> But to answer your Q? Terry O - I decided when I got my very first redfoot hatchling.. in Feb. '05.. that I would simply raise them totally opposite of how I described I kept the '98 hatchlings. I began to "mist-them-til-they-drip" and haven't stopped! Luck?, Coincidence? or Fate?.. there you have it.
> 
> Are they healthier since I've 'improved' their diet or habitat? - maybe!?
> 
> Originally I kept the cypress mulch entirely too wet and that created plastron 'fungus' issues - like Tom and I discussed on the phone and he mentioned on his last post. So their substrate doesn't need to be "wet".
> 
> Bottom line - "carapace contact" - with [ substantial ] humidity.. forms/always it to grow SMOOTH! There.. I've said it.
> 
> The proof is in our on-going pics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wait a minute Nerd....didn't you tell me that Carl (cdmay) was your mentor and taught you most of everything you know about humidity for your Red's? I remember you told me that you and he e-mailed and phoned back and forth (you even told me you saved all his e-mails). In fact I remembered this post you made.
> Redfoot NERD
> Posting Freak
> 
> Posts: 1,766
> Joined: Dec 2007
> Reputation: 8
> 
> DWARF "Cherryhead" vs "Regular" redfoot
> This one hopefully will answer a lot of Q?'s!!!
> 
> Everyone has a Guru / Mentor - Carl was mine. He is in FL.. and shared a couple of his '05 Brazilian's with me.
Click to expand...


Not that I remember TerryO! Most everything that Carl shared with me was about incubating eggs.. not humidity. In fact I'll look and see what we talked about [ emails only ] early on.

NERD


----------



## Tom

RichardS said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have not ever seen any evidence that too much hydration is bad for a tortoise. If they aren't getting URTIs or any kind of shell rot, what is your concern about all the water?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've missed the point of my questions. How did you justify spraying 10 times per day, vs. 5 times, vs. 2 times, etc? Why not spray them 50 times per day or 100 times? If a little is good, more is better, right?
> 
> Are you familiar with the concept of diminishing marginal returns? By going so far past what most of us (with jobs) would consider feasible, you have alienated yourself and your results.
> 
> Let me break it down again. If I don't spray my tortoise it will pyramid. Gotcha. If I spray it 10 times per day, it won't pyramid. Gotcha. What if I spray it twice a day? What if I spray in 5 times per day? How do we know what will happen?
> 
> Wouldn't you have had better results if you could have told us, I only spray twice a day? Where is the fine line (or balance)? It would have helped your conclusion.
> 
> 
> 
> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you soak twice a day and spray 5 times a day and your tortoise still pyramids, something will have to be terribly wrong. But remember: Humidity, moisture and hydration will PREVENT pyramiding.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But that isn't what you are doing. You are soaking 3 times per day and spraying 10 times per day.
Click to expand...


Richard, I'm not sure where you are coming from here and I don't think you understand where I'm coming from either. My goal here was to raise some smooth tortoises and demonstrate through pics and text how I did it. That's really all. I don't expect to come out of this with a universal exact formula that everyone, everywhere can follow and get the exact same results. I think that what I, and several others have demonstrated here is that increased levels of hydration, moisture and humidity will grow a smooth tortoise. How much moisture and humidity will YOU need in your situation? I don't know. If your last hatchling grew lumpy, then you needed more. I think I've also shown that an extreme amount of wetness will not harm them in any way. So if someone else decides to use less than my extreme amount, they can feel a little safer about it knowing that if they went way overboard, it would still be okay.

I feel compelled to explain my methods further. I soak so many times because of my routine. First thing in the morn because Danny's post indicated that they can dehydrate over the long night. Then I soak again before I put them out in the hot dry sun. Then after an hour or two out in the hot dry air, I soak them again to rehydrate them. Finally, I soak them in the late evening, before they retire to again rehydrate them before the long night. The shell spraying is just done every time I walk by their enclosure and think about it. Others have demonstrated that it doesn't have to be done quite this much to grow a smooth one, but since it doesn't hurt, I want to go overboard with it. 

I've already stated that I will try to suss out exactly what is doing the trick on future hatchlings and come up with a more reasonable approach that most people can follow, but I had to get this first one under my belt. Remember these are the first smooth hatchlings I have ever raised!

If you want to know what would happen in your enclosure, in your house, if you only spray twice a day, there is only one way to find out.

Let us all know how it goes, please.


----------



## Meg90

Can I add to this? I thought this thread was for sullys only but now I'm seeing Red foots and Leos, so Imma ad my two cents.

Novalee is a Golden Greek x Antakyan Greek cross I got her at 5 weeks old
This is her day one:





And this is her now at a year old, 4.5" and 317g





As you can see, she's smooth as butter. Not a bump or ridge in sight. And I will tell you right now, I did not soak her, spray her shell or anything. She has been soaked maybe three times in her entire life. She uses her water dish and thats it. Its big enough for her to get into, and I witnessed her using it and so I didn't feel the need to force soak her and up her stress level. My older girl hated to be soaked, and the couple times Novalee was, she hated it as well. 

This is how I kept her: 3/4 aspen, and 1/4 moist eco earth with that section of the tank covered in plexi to help retain more humidity. I wet the eco earth when I noticed the top centimeter or so was dry, about once ever 4-6 days or so. She had gone through three different bins in the year that I've had her, as she grew out of them, and I set them all up just the same as her baby bin in the picture





Dusted spring mix was my staple, with dusted romaine and very rarely a veggie like squash thrown in.

I know she's not a sulcata, but the Mediterranean torts have a closer climate to sullys than red foots. I don't know if soakings are really the key to smooth growth, nor do I know if actually spraying the shell is. I did neither of those things with Novalee, and I didn't raise her on all moist bedding either, and yet, she's smooth as a stone and not pyramided at all.


----------



## NealH

Does anyone have any pics of a 9 week old sulcata with significant pyramiding? Just wondering as a comparison. Just seems a little early for all the back slapping that seems to be going on. I'm just sayin'.

Neal


----------



## shmily1605

Sorry I know I dont know much right now but here is a pic of a boy that I am about to adopt. From what I know he was not properly taking care of. But I live in MS where it is really humid and that is where he is from. He is pretty smooth so that to me is good proof that they do need humidty.


----------



## dolfanjack

shmily1605 said:


> Sorry I know I dont know much right now but here is a pic of a boy that I am about to adopt. From what I know he was not properly taking care of. But I live in MS where it is really humid and that is where he is from. He is pretty smooth so that to me is good proof that they do need humidty.



Nice looking tortoise congradulations.


----------



## RichardS

Tom said:


> My goal here was to raise some smooth tortoises and demonstrate through pics and text how I did it. That's really all. I don't expect to come out of this with a universal exact formula that everyone, everywhere can follow and get the exact same results.



But over and over again you have claimed to have ended pyramiding. I think there are about 50+ threads that you make some reference to ending pyramiding.



Tom said:


> I think that what I, and several others have demonstrated here is that increased levels of hydration, moisture and humidity will grow a smooth tortoise. How much moisture and humidity will YOU need in your situation? I don't know.



What which is it, hydration, moisture (on the shell) or humidity? Now I am confused.



Tom said:


> I think I've also shown that an extreme amount of wetness will not harm them in any way. So if someone else decides to use less than my extreme amount, they can feel a little safer about it knowing that if they went way overboard, it would still be okay.





Tom said:


> The shell spraying is just done every time I walk by their enclosure and think about it. Others have demonstrated that it doesn't have to be done quite this much to grow a smooth one, but since it doesn't hurt, I want to go overboard with it.



If 2 sprays a day stopped pyramiding, why do 10? 
What's going to happen when a member who doesn't live in the desert reads this and sprays their tortoise 50 times a day (more is better, right?) and it develops shell rot. Will you feel any personal responsibility? 



Tom said:


> If you want to know what would happen in your enclosure, in your house, if you only spray twice a day, there is only one way to find out.



And while this last statement is undoubtedly accurate, its hard to be satisfied with after all the claims we've all heard about the end of pyramiding. 

I don't think we're all looking for a bullet proof formula, however, it would have been nice if you had not have gone so far overboard.

Again, I think the tortoises look great and you are obviously doing a lot of things correctly. Diet, sunlight, D3 synthesis, hydration, etc. Your answer lies with some combination of variable.


----------



## Tom

NealH said:


> Does anyone have any pics of a 9 week old sulcata with significant pyramiding? Just wondering as a comparison. Just seems a little early for all the back slapping that seems to be going on. I'm just sayin'.
> 
> Neal



The pic of Daisy that I posted in post #158 on page 11 is from when she was 12 weeks old. So its only three weeks away. I seriously doubt that my hatchlings are going to be perfectly smooth for 9 weeks and then suddenly sprout that kind of pyramiding. Also, I've raised lot of sulcatas from hatchlings and ALL of them started to pyramid within the first couple of weeks in my old dry set-ups.



shmily1605 said:


> Sorry I know I dont know much right now but here is a pic of a boy that I am about to adopt. From what I know he was not properly taking care of. But I live in MS where it is really humid and that is where he is from. He is pretty smooth so that to me is good proof that they do need humidty.



He does look pretty good. This is basically the same thing that I have observed all over the country. If they grow up outdoors in a humid area, they tend to be smooth regardless of the care they have or have not received.


----------



## NealH

My concern with this "study" is the lack of any sort of comparison or "control." I think it would be important to have another hatchling from the same clutch raised under the exact same conditions with the only difference being the level of humidity. Then if one showed significant pyramiding in comparison to the other, some preliminary, anecdotal conclusions might be able to be drawn. As of right now, the only conclusions are that can be drawn is that you've raised two hatchlings to nine weeks without significant pyramiding. You have to be able to be able to isolate the variable (as much as possible) and have a comparison to draw conclusions. It's not enough to just say that all of the tortoises you've raised over the past 20 years have had pyramiding and these don't. That's not an adequate comparison. I applaud you for what you're doing--I think it's great and I hope this is the answer. I just wanted to give my suggestion on how to lend a bit of credence to your argument. 

Neal


----------



## Tom

RichardS said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> My goal here was to raise some smooth tortoises and demonstrate through pics and text how I did it. That's really all. I don't expect to come out of this with a universal exact formula that everyone, everywhere can follow and get the exact same results.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But over and over again you have claimed to have ended pyramiding. I think there are about 50+ threads that you make some reference to ending pyramiding.
> 
> 
> 
> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that what I, and several others have demonstrated here is that increased levels of hydration, moisture and humidity will grow a smooth tortoise. How much moisture and humidity will YOU need in your situation? I don't know.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What which is it, hydration, moisture (on the shell) or humidity? Now I am confused.
> 
> 
> 
> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think I've also shown that an extreme amount of wetness will not harm them in any way. So if someone else decides to use less than my extreme amount, they can feel a little safer about it knowing that if they went way overboard, it would still be okay.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> The shell spraying is just done every time I walk by their enclosure and think about it. Others have demonstrated that it doesn't have to be done quite this much to grow a smooth one, but since it doesn't hurt, I want to go overboard with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If 2 sprays a day stopped pyramiding, why do 10?
> What's going to happen when a member who doesn't live in the desert reads this and sprays their tortoise 50 times a day (more is better, right?) and it develops shell rot. Will you feel any personal responsibility?
> 
> 
> 
> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to know what would happen in your enclosure, in your house, if you only spray twice a day, there is only one way to find out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And while this last statement is undoubtedly accurate, its hard to be satisfied with after all the claims we've all heard about the end of pyramiding.
> 
> I don't think we're all looking for a bullet proof formula, however, it would have been nice if you had not have gone so far overboard.
> 
> Again, I think the tortoises look great and you are obviously doing a lot of things correctly. Diet, sunlight, D3 synthesis, hydration, etc. Your answer lies with some combination of variable.
Click to expand...


Well okay Mr. Critical Pants. I'll dance.

First of all I have NEVER claimed to have ended pyramiding. I HAVE repeatedly claimed that my GOAL is to end pyramiding. It was. It still is. It will always be. Will I ever achieve my goal? That would be near impossible. I just want to do as much to end it as I possibly can, for as many people and their tortoises as I can. I have certainly ended it for my self and several forum members have thanked me for helping give them the info for keeping theirs smooth.

Second, I have repeatedly stated that I don't know which single element or combination of elements is doing it yet. I only know that all of these elements together, in my environment, DOES prevent pyramiding. You seem to be upset that I don't want to jump to wild, premature conclusions. In time and after half a dozen or so more attempts at various techniques, I'll have your answer about exactly how much of what part is working the magic. I can't help it if you are confused. I've spent hours of my time typing it out in plain english and answering numerous questions about it.

Third point. I don't know if two times a day is enough. I don't know if 50 times a day is too much. Neither do you. I have clearly stated that sulcatas have a much greater resistance to shell rot than some of the other species and that after two years of keeping mine swampy, I have had no ill effect. Others have related similar experiences. (Thanks Dean) All I am doing is reporting what I have done and what I am doing so that others who are interested can learn from my experiences and draw their own conclusions as I have. Terry K did not tell me that I MUST spray them 10 times a day. In fact he cautioned against shell rot in the redfoots. He told me what he does. I assimilated that with what I know and have observed about MY situation and chose to spray the heck out of mine. Its working, and its not hurting them in the least. Everyone else will have to exercise their own judgement about how much is enough or too much. I have demonstrated the result of keeping them too dry with Daisy and my adults. Now I am demonstrating the results of keeping them super sloppy wet. I will demonstrate something in between these too extremes with future hatchlings.

Finally, you are the second person to come after me like this. I don't understand what you are upset about any more than the first person who did it. I do appreciate it, however. It helps me to explain things more thoroughly. It helps me to examine exactly what I have done, what I am doing and what I will do. Your critical thinking and questions cause me to think more critically and look for faults or possible problems in this whole equation. For that, I thank you.

But I still can't understand why anybody would be upset at a guy who is demonstrating how he is growing some smooth tortoises, in a species that rarely grows smooth in captivity. It seems as though you are upset because my goals are too lofty. They might be, but I'm not lowering them for you or anyone else. IF I could end pyramiding for everyone, everywhere, for ever, I would. Of course I can't, but I will strive to do as much as I humanly can in that direction. The last naysayer accused me of being "so full of myself". That may be true, but isn't it still a good thing to try to improve the lives of our tortoises? That's all I am doing here. I don't even take the credit for what I'm doing here. I've mentioned the names of the people who discovered these things and who I learned them from so many times that I've been teased about it.



Meg90 said:


> Can I add to this? I thought this thread was for sullys only but now I'm seeing Red foots and Leos, so Imma ad my two cents.
> 
> Novalee is a Golden Greek x Antakyan Greek cross I got her at 5 weeks old
> This is her day one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this is her now at a year old, 4.5" and 317g
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, she's smooth as butter. Not a bump or ridge in sight. And I will tell you right now, I did not soak her, spray her shell or anything. She has been soaked maybe three times in her entire life. She uses her water dish and thats it. Its big enough for her to get into, and I witnessed her using it and so I didn't feel the need to force soak her and up her stress level. My older girl hated to be soaked, and the couple times Novalee was, she hated it as well.
> 
> This is how I kept her: 3/4 aspen, and 1/4 moist eco earth with that section of the tank covered in plexi to help retain more humidity. I wet the eco earth when I noticed the top centimeter or so was dry, about once ever 4-6 days or so. She had gone through three different bins in the year that I've had her, as she grew out of them, and I set them all up just the same as her baby bin in the picture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dusted spring mix was my staple, with dusted romaine and very rarely a veggie like squash thrown in.
> 
> I know she's not a sulcata, but the Mediterranean torts have a closer climate to sullys than red foots. I don't know if soakings are really the key to smooth growth, nor do I know if actually spraying the shell is. I did neither of those things with Novalee, and I didn't raise her on all moist bedding either, and yet, she's smooth as a stone and not pyramided at all.



Hi Meg. Thanks for including your care regime for your tort. Novalee has an extremely beautiful shell and you have done a fine job with her. Yours is a great example of how to raise a smooth Med. tort.


----------



## RichardS

Tom said:


> I have repeatedly stated that I don't know which single element or combination of elements is doing it yet. I only know that all of these elements together, in my environment, DOES prevent pyramiding. You seem to be upset that I don't want to jump to wild, premature conclusions.



I am concerned that you have already formulated a premature conclusion. 



Tom said:


> I have clearly stated that sulcatas have a much greater resistance to shell rot than some of the other species and that after two years of keeping mine swampy, I have had no ill effect.



Do you not see the difference in your statements? On one hand you say you have solved pyramiding (but only in your exact specific situation), which may or may not work for anyone else. 

On the other hand, you have concluded that keeping sulcatas swampy has no ill effect, across the board. How can you be so confident about one statement/conclusion, but not the other? 



Tom said:


> I have demonstrated the result of keeping them too dry with Daisy and my adults. Now I am demonstrating the results of keeping them super sloppy wet. I will demonstrate something in between these too extremes with future hatchlings.



Are you going on the record with a third batch? When are you finishing the current experiment? how much longer are you planning to keep them on their same diet? 



Tom said:


> But I still can't understand why anybody would be upset at a guy who is demonstrating how he is growing some smooth tortoises, in a species that rarely grows smooth in captivity. It seems as though you are upset because my goals are too lofty. They might be, but I'm not lowering them for you or anyone else.
> 
> IF I could end pyramiding for everyone, everywhere, for ever, I would. Of course I can't, but I will strive to do as much as I humanly can in that direction. The last naysayer accused me of being "so full of myself". That may be true, but isn't it still a good thing to try to improve the lives of our tortoises? That's all I am doing here. I don't even take the credit for what I'm doing here.



I am not upset. More power to you.

On your third trial, can you eliminate all sunshine and UVB of any kind, so we can conclude that has no effect on the tortoises shells.


----------



## Redfoot NERD

Instead of "replying" with the entire page I'll just 'reply' to this post Terry O made -

Terry K......Where would you attribute learning that humidity played such an important part in pyramiding? 

I replied and didn't include Carl ( cdmay ) as being an influence in any way.. to which she 'questioned'? 

Wait a minute Nerd....didn't you tell me that Carl (cdmay) was your mentor and taught you most of everything you know about humidity for your Red's? I remember you told me that you and he e-mailed and phoned back and forth (you even told me you saved all his e-mails). In fact I remembered this post you made.

Redfoot NERD 
Posting Freak

Posts: 1,766
Joined: Dec 2007 
Reputation: 8 

DWARF "Cherryhead" vs "Regular" redfoot 
This one hopefully will answer a lot of Q?'s!!!

Everyone has a Guru / Mentor - Carl was mine. He is in FL.. and shared a couple of his '05 Brazilian's with me. 

I replied.. Not that I remember TerryO! Most everything that Carl shared with me was about incubating eggs.. not humidity. In fact I'll look and see what we talked about [ emails only ] early on.

NERD

I looked back thru and found this.. the first mention of 'pyramiding' thru-out our emails -- NOTE DATES --

[ unrelated dialogue about incubation advice results with pics deleted and then ]...



Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: You believe THIS?
From: Terry E. Kilgore 
To: Cdm [ address hidden ]

Showing "growth" with no pyramiding. I 'mist' them til they drip 3 or so times a day.. I believe that is making a difference. They sure like endive as a staple and pineapple as a treat!

We then shared pics of hatchlings back and forth and Carl talked about a 4" he had raised up and mentioned about pyramiding the first [ and last ] time.. 

From: Cdm
To: [email protected] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: This is my opinion.......


Terry,
Oh, now I understand.

 Regarding that cherryhead, I have raised her for nearly 10 years from a 4 inch import. She did lay a few days after that one photo was taken (her first clutch) and then she laid the 9 eggs a few weeks back. *I don't get pyramiding in my animals when they are outside.*
Carl 

I did attempt to speak with Carl on the phone a few times but we never have.

Carl does no doubt provide the 'ideal' outdoor enclosure I'm sure - knowing that he does work in landscaping!

Just wanted to make sure it was not misunderstood. Carl has been a substantial help and has greatly influenced the little success I've had at breeding redfoot tortoises. He and a few others that frequent this forum have years of actual 'hands-on' experience HERE in the US where most of us live.. which has mainly been my source of research.

And as Carl has told me in past.. "We all have much to learn"...

NERD 

BTW ---- Tom with your 'contacts' in the "entertainment industry" you should have then consider this thread as some kind of "SOAP"........... it would sell zillions.......... hahahahahahaha


----------



## Madkins007

In another thread, I believe you gave at least some of the credit for misting to an article by Fife in Reptiles magazine, as well.


----------



## Tom

Hi Richard. I'll hit your points and questions one at a time. BTW, I want to reiterate that your input is appreciated and welcomed.

#1. The only conclusion that I have reached, is that what I am doing is working so far. NOTHING has ever worked in the past, so this is monumental to me.

#2. Yes I do see the difference and you are right. I am, however, stating my opinions based on what is happening at my house AND what I have observed all over the globe in the last 20 years AND what others have observed and experienced with their torts. I know lots of people with tortoises, so this is a considerable pool of knowledge and experience to draw from.

#3a. Yes, I will be messin' with a third batch and a fourth and a fifth, etc... I cannot foresee any point in the future where I will not want to share what I learn with other tortoise keepers, so yes it will be "on record".

#3b. I don't know that the current "experiment" will ever end. I dream about what these three hatchlings will look like in 10 or 20 years. I can't even begin to imagine what I will have learned by then. I look forward to the offspring of these offspring.

#3c. I haven't decided about the diet yet. They are eating the same stuff that my current adults were eating when they were hatchlings. The only thing I really want to do different is add more grass earlier than I did for my other ones and add Mazuri, as I believe it to be beneficial in many ways. For now the diet will continue to closely mimic the diet that my adults were raised on. When it changes, I will let everyone know as that will clearly "corrupt" my little informal experiement here.

#4. Glad you are not upset. Thanks for the power sent my way, and no I will not eliminate UV as an experiment. I believe all tortoises (even the forest torts, to a lesser degree) need to be outside with some access to sun. As Maggie has stated many times you need 4 things for a healthy tort. Sun (UV), exercise, good diet and humidity. I'm not so much of a mad scientist that I would do anything that would risk the health and well being of a tortoise. I don't mind messing with some of the moisture, humidity or hydration factors a bit, but I won't knowingly risk their well being. I think removing them from any UV would be a risk to their health eventually.

Richard, you are obviously a reasonable and intelligent person. Please keep up your questions. They remind me of things I have forgotten and stimulate me to think more about things I have yet to learn.


----------



## Redfoot NERD

Madkins007 said:


> In another thread, I believe you gave at least some of the credit for misting to an article by Fife in Reptiles magazine, as well.



Exactly Mark.. May '05 publication.. over 5 years ago is hard to recall all events. I may have emailed or spoken with Richard about his findings of the importance of humidity for hatchlings!

NERD


----------



## PeanutbuttER

For future groups I'd actually love to see the humidity broken down even farther. Like, I'd love to see a 70% group, 80% group, 90% group and so forth or something to the effect of a humidity level continuum. While it'd be more difficult to maintain a constant humidity level, if it could be done I for one would be really fascinated by the results as they would narrow down the "humidity" label to a much narrow and more specific scale.


----------



## Tom

This has actually already been done by actual real scientists in a real lab. Check it out.
http://africantortoise.com/_sulcatadiet2.pdf


----------



## -JM

Tom said:


> This has actually already been done by actual real scientists in a real lab. Check it out.
> http://africantortoise.com/_sulcatadiet2.pdf



lol @ "actual real scientists" 
You're a real scientist, Tom. Not all science happens in a lab! interesting article though.


----------



## PeanutbuttER

Tom said:


> This has actually already been done by actual real scientists in a real lab. Check it out.
> http://africantortoise.com/_sulcatadiet2.pdf



Oh! Ask and ye shall receive indeed!

Thanks Tom. I'll have a read through this over the weekend. The german parts were surprising  , but thankfully I have experience with german (although I don't really need it since they're just the repeated translations of the english sections)


----------



## Tom

You are going to be able to wait for the weekend?! When I found this I couldn't put it down until I had read it and re-read several times.


----------



## PeanutbuttER

Tom said:


> You are going to be able to wait for the weekend?! When I found this I couldn't put it down until I had read it and re-read several times.



Yeah... I'm an undergrad doing research of my own so I've got other articles ahead in the queue.


----------



## RichardS

It is a good article. The best part about it is the date.


----------



## spikethebest

i wanna see updated pics please.....


----------



## Albinoboidsetc

spikethebest said:


> i wanna see updated pics please.....



I second that


----------



## Tom

I'm going to do a big update and post in another 10 days or so to commemorate their first 90 days. It will feature comparison pics of my 3 year old Daisy from when she was 90 days old.


----------



## murdocjunior

i cant wait....


----------



## terrypin

i look forward to any updates.i take great pains and spend a lot of time picking weeds and grasses for my hatchlings diet .so anything that will help to keep them healthy and looking as they should, interests me


----------



## Tom

Update: These pics were taken right around the ninety day mark on August 19th, 2010. I've raised a lot of hatchlings of a lot of species. These are by far the healthiest, most robust, fastest growing I've ever raised. I have fed other hatchlings in the past more than these and didn't get anywhere near this much growth. They are still completely smooth, despite their rapid growth, which proves, at least to me, that pyramiding has nothing to do with fast growth, too much food or protein. In comparison, it seems like all my other hatchlings were just surviving while these ones are thriving. While its too early to know for sure, its seems like I have two males and a female, just like the parents. My next hatchlings will be temp sexed for females.

Tuck:










Tulee (AKA: The new Big Bertha):









Trey:









The three amigos:


----------



## Albinoboidsetc

That is freaking awesome!!! They look great Tom


----------



## ekm5015

Wow Tom. They are growing so fast and look great! Keep up the good work.


----------



## jackrat

I'd say it's working,Tom.They are growing like weeds! Keep us updated.


----------



## Becki

Smoooooooth!


----------



## ChiKat

Wow they are growing soo quickly!! They're almost catching up to Nelson in weight! 
I can't wait to have a Sulcata of my own some day 

They're looking great!!


----------



## Tom

Thanks for the encouragement and compliments. I'm trying to find the time to get them out and get some good profile shots. I'll post some more soon.


----------



## DeanS

For the record...this post should be in *EVERYONE*'s favorites...entertaining and most informative!

...so should the following threads...

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-16006.html

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-14125.html


----------



## Tom

Thanks Dean.


----------



## spikethebest

Yesterday I saw these hatchlings in person for i think the 3rd or 4th time. and they are just AMAZING!!! i hold one up, look at them from the side, I see nothing but smooth shell. I rub my fingers across the entire carapace, and I feel no bubbles or indents or ridges at all. absolutely amazing in every possible way. Tom has my vote for the solution to end pyramiding once and for all!


----------



## bettinge

I found this interesting. Not sure where I got the link, but I'm sure I got it somewhere on TFO. I apologize if its already linked to in this thread, I did not have the energy to read all posts.

http://www.graeca-home.de/Krueger 2008 e.pdf


----------



## spikethebest

very interesting article. thanks for posting that.


----------



## HarleyK

bettinge said:


> I found this interesting. Not sure where I got the link, but I'm sure I got it somewhere on TFO. I apologize if its already linked to in this thread, I did not have the energy to read all posts.
> 
> http://www.graeca-home.de/Krueger 2008 e.pdf



Great article! 
"Using moist soil dens rather than a solid
shelter hut has by now been proving beneficial
in my nursery enclosures since 2006. All
animals have so far grown without developing
any recognizable humps in their shells."


----------



## Tom

Update: They continue to grow perfectly and quickly. All of them are over 8cm long at four months. Tulee is as wide as she is long. I feel like I should put a "Wide Load" sticker on her bottom. She also consistently uses the humid hide box more than the other two. These pics were their first time on the ground and each of them immediately started trying to eat the dead weeds around them.

Tuck:














Tulee:













Trey:













Here are their weights. You can see the dates for the last weigh in also:


----------



## Annieski

Great job, Tom--- I love how all three had very different and distinct shell patterns. Daisy looks so "well groomed" and clean. Very pretty.


----------



## DeanS

OUTSTANDING! Tom: The NEW Tortoise Guru!


----------



## spikethebest

DeanS said:


> OUTSTANDING! Tom: The NEW Tortoise Guru!



I think Tom was ALWAYS a Tortoise Guru, but just recently, he has become known to the tortoise world!


----------



## ChiKat

They look incredible. The most gorgeous Sulcata hatchlings I have ever seen!


----------



## Tom

DeanS said:


> OUTSTANDING! Tom: The NEW Tortoise Guru!



Now that's just silly. I've got such a long way to go. This is ONLY three torts of one species. I need to repeat many times with lots of species, then we can start discussing titles. Thank for the praise, though.


----------



## ChiKat

So when are you getting your Leopards Tom?


----------



## DeanS

Tom said:


> DeanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> OUTSTANDING! Tom: The NEW Tortoise Guru!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now that's just silly. I've got such a long way to go. This is ONLY three torts of one species. I need to repeat many times with lots of species, then we can start discussing titles. Thank for the praise, though.
Click to expand...


OK! Sulcata guru then!


----------



## Edna

On this topic of humidity affecting bone growth, there is NO serious scientific evidence for this whatsoever, and furthermore, the single piece of published "research" that those who promulgate such misinformation rely upon is deeply, deeply flawed. 

Fact: The biology of bone growth (and pathologies) is very well understood. Tortoises are no different than any other animal. The same rules apply.
Fact: Rapid growth is a key factor in all nutritionally related developmental bone pathologies.
Fact: Excess protein stimulates high growth rates.


Okay, I'm new here, and maybe also I'm a complete idiot. My point of confusion: I didn't think the shell was bone, so therefore the above would be irrelevant. Dumb me? I was thinking that the shell was scale, or along that line. Please help me understand.... Edna


----------



## DeanS

One of my first posts was on humidity...and I'll reiterate. Realize, this mostly relates to sulcatas...we all know they come from the Sahara. It's HOT! It's VERY HOT! Hatchlings spend a good amount of time in burrows...whether it was dug by their mom...or vacated by another animal. Given the heat above ground and the moisture from roots and the rarely seen rainstorm, these burrows are humid...I don't care if they're 5 feet deep or 30 feet deep...in fact, the deeper they dig the more moisture they obtain and therefore...MORE HUMIDITY! It will not be cooler than 65-75 degrees (at night) and damn near 100% humidity.


----------



## dmmj

All I can say right now is I have seen ones raised under low to no humidity, and the result almost if not always is pyramiding, and I have seen tom's raised under very humid conditions and they are smooth, is it a scientific proven thing yet? no, but I would think there is a lot of room for maybe some papers or such to be written. I am pretty sure that rapid growth has been ruled out as pyramiding causes, The shell is bone not scale. I think tom has proven something here, I am interested if he is gonna repeat the experiment now and see if he will get similar results.


----------



## Tom

TortyQueen said:


> On this topic of humidity affecting bone growth, there is NO serious scientific evidence for this whatsoever, and furthermore, the single piece of published "research" that those who promulgate such misinformation rely upon is deeply, deeply flawed.
> 
> Fact: The biology of bone growth (and pathologies) is very well understood. Tortoises are no different than any other animal. The same rules apply.
> Fact: Rapid growth is a key factor in all nutritionally related developmental bone pathologies.
> Fact: Excess protein stimulates high growth rates.
> 
> 
> Okay, I'm new here, and maybe also I'm a complete idiot. My point of confusion: I didn't think the shell was bone, so therefore the above would be irrelevant. Dumb me? I was thinking that the shell was scale, or along that line. Please help me understand.... Edna



Hi Edna. That was a quote from another post, right? The shell is made up of an underlying layer of bone covered by an outer layer of keratin. After all this time, I still don't have a clear answer about whether pyramiding is a bone thing, a keratin thing, or both. I've seen some shell cross sections, but I don't know if I'm looking at MBD, pyramiding or both. Further, I still can't tell you exactly why humidity and moisture prevent pyramiding, BUT THEY DO! I still don't know exactly what is going on in there at the cellular level, but here is what I do know:

1. If you raise them dry, they will pyramid. I did this for 20 years with many individuals of several species. It sucks, and I'll never do it again, now that I know better.
2. If you raise them wet, hydrated, humid and keep them warm round the clock they will NOT pyramid.
3. Pyramiding has nothing to do with diet or protein or fast growth. I'm sure of this. I've seen it demonstrated many times all over the world.
4. The pattern for pyramiding or not is established in the first few weeks of life. Once they reach a certain size, not a whole lot can be done to change it one way or the other.
5. What you read in most books, magazines and care sheets is all about adults, not hatchlings.


----------



## dmmj

I actually heard of a theory why it prevents, I read a long time ago that it is supposed to keep the scutes like loose or flexible, maybe moistened so they move better as they grow.


----------



## Tom

dmmj said:


> I actually heard of a theory why it prevents, I read a long time ago that it is supposed to keep the scutes like loose or flexible, maybe moistened so they move better as they grow.



Richard Fife calls it scute "lubrication". He told me that, in his experience, spraying them twice a day prevents pyramiding. He's currently conducting more experiments on this.


----------



## chairman

Ok, so forgive the logic, I took some serious shortcuts to keep it brief...

Premise: Most animals have nice, moist, humid meat suits fully surrounding their bones. 
Premise: Tortoise shell bone only gets that type of flesh coverage from the inside. 
Premise: Animals with flesh-covered bones don't develop bone deformities nearly as easily as tortoises.
Sub-conclusion: Tortoise shell bone deformities (pyramiding) are the result of not having a moist, humid, flesh covering on their bone.
Premise: Tom's hypothesis/test shows that increasing external humidity causes tortoise shells to grow without deformities.
Conclusion: External humidity replicates the benefits of having flesh covered bone for tortoises, ie, moist tortoises don't pyramid.

The argument isn't perfect, and it isn't pretty, but it is an explanation.

By contrast, Tom's damp sulcatas are very perfect and pretty... which ought to be good enough for the average keeper until science can catch up.


----------



## HarleyK

After reading the article attached and some posts it sounds to me like it's all about the wetness of the shell and the humidity levels. So soaking a tortoise overtime and making sure it is fully hydrated wouldn't necessarily prevent pyramiding?


----------



## Redfoot NERD

This 'adult' [ 10+" SCL ] .carbonaria I acquired was raised in the worst conditions [ 55 gal aquarium with no hide and carpet for substrate ] and fed the wrong things [ Reptomin pellets staple diet ] all her life from a hatchling.. AND "was given a bath" [ per former owner .. maybe the only redeeming factor ] everyday! Amazing how 'smooth' she looks now -







NERD


----------



## terryo

Tom, I love this thread!! You are very modest, but you are definitely paving the way with what you are doing, and helping new, old and even the experienced Sulcata owners. 
Pio lived under very humid conditions, and was sprayed every time he came out to eat, as per Terry K's instructions to me....and he is just as smooth as when he was a hatchling, so I'm thinking that this must apply to other species as well.


----------



## Redfoot NERD

terryo said:


> Tom, I love this thread!! You are very modest, but you are definitely paving the way with what you are doing, and helping new, old and even the experienced Sulcata owners.
> Pio lived under very humid conditions, and was sprayed every time he came out to eat, as per Terry K's instructions to me....and he is just as smooth as when he was a hatchling, so I'm thinking that this must apply to other species as well.



TerryO - Richard Fife and I spoke on the phone about this very thing some years ago [ late '04 ]... it's finally coming to light as a result of Tom's tenacity!


----------



## Tom

Harley K, I don't have an answer for you, yet. I don't know which individual element of care, or combination of elements are solving the problem. I only know that all the things in combination have grown my first three smooth tortoises in my life. More study is necessary. 

Terryo, Thanks for the kind words, but as I've said before, and as TerryK pointed out, I cannot take credit for this discovery. I am just the guy beating everybody over the head with it and screaming from the mountain top.

I've been researching this for many years, but there have been three main breakthroughs. If any one deserves credit, its the following three people: Richard Fife, who published the humidity thing in his book "Leopard Tortoises" in 2007. Richard also introduced me to the current state of protein deficiency in most tortoise species (but that's another post). Terry K for introducing me to the shell spraying concept and verifying what Richard Fife said. Danny (Egyptian Dan) for introducing the dehydration puzzle piece to me. What these three people said fit perfectly with my own observations and lots of the pieces of the puzzle started coming together.

Clearly, there is much more work to be done, but this is a very good start. I would really like it if other people would start out their hatchlings in the same, or a similar way, and document it as I have done here. More species or the same species. We'll all figure out more puzzle pieces if more people do the same stuff. A lot of folks are coming in after the damage is already done, like me with Daisy, so this really needs to be all about hatchlings.


----------



## Madkins007

A few aspects of this still trouble me, although I think the basic lesson of humidity/moisture/hydration is sound.

1.) Why in the bejeebers would a high-humidity animal like the Red-foot be more likely to develop a form of plastron rot when kept too wet compared to something like a Sulcata? The well-drained soil in much of the wild may be the biggest issue here, but does not seem to answer it.

2.) It troubles me that so many of the best successes come from locations that are rather tortoise friendly in their climate. I know a lot of keepers in colder, drier climes struggle even when rather heroic measures of humidity are tried. A combination of better drainage and near-excessive misting may be the answer here as well- it may be worth it for us to check out some sort of powered, timed misting systems. 

I DO wish we knew more about WHY this works, but I am used to there being a lot of grey areas in tortoise husbandry.

Well done, Tom!


----------



## Kristina

Madkins007 said:


> 1.) Why in the bejeebers would a high-humidity animal like the Red-foot be more likely to develop a form of plastron rot when kept too wet compared to something like a Sulcata? The well-drained soil in much of the wild may be the biggest issue here, but does not seem to answer it.



Personally I think the shell rot has less to do with the moisture and more to do with the presence of fungal spores and improper pH level. On humans, skin, hair and nails have an acid pH. If the same is true for tortoises, then a substrate that is too alkaline could cause "burns" or erosions of the outer layer of the scute material, the same way a strong alkali soap causes human skin to crack and be irritated, or human hair to become brittle and break easily. This could open the way for fungal spores to seat themselves quite strongly, and damp, humid conditions where a tortoise is sometimes crawling through its own feces (think of mushrooms on cow poop, lol) in turn create a perfect environment for the fungus to continue to grow. It is no secret that shell rot is fungal, which is why athlete's foot cream clears it up so well. My theory makes sense to me 



chairman said:


> nice, moist, humid meat suits



I am sorry, I know you wrote that in all seriousness, but I seriously LOL'ed when I read that...


----------



## chairman

kyryah said:


> chairman said:
> 
> 
> 
> nice, moist, humid meat suits
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry, I know you wrote that in all seriousness, but I seriously LOL'ed when I read that...
Click to expand...


No apologies necessary. The idea is serious, but my delivery was at least _part_ silliness.

And Tom, you need to quit urging people to raise smooth babies  ... it is hard enough to keep from adding to the creep without you tempting us like that!


----------



## Tom

Thanks Mark. Those things trouble me too. I think in the next few years, we'll have most of the answers.

On point number 1: Terry K and I have talked several times about this. I won't speak for Terry, but my best educated GUESS is this: Sulcatas live down underground in the dirt and nastiness. They poop and pee in their burrows to keep up humidity and then lay in their own filth. I think for this reason, they have evolved a much greater resistance to anything that would attack their plastron. By contrast, the redfoot lives primarily above ground and moves to a new area after depositing waste. They don't lay in their own filth, and other than rainy days their plastrons probably stay relatively dry.

On point number 2: I think that most would consider my area "tortoise friendly", but I've had nothing but failure for 20 years. I've had to go to extreme lengths to raise and maintain humidity, and honestly, I don't know if I could do it outside of my reptile room. I'm going to try it with some of my next batch of hatchlings in the spring. They make automatic misters. I actually have one, but prefer to do it by hand. I know that sulcatas are resistant to shell rot with these extreme levels of wetness, but I don't know about ANY other species... yet. Leopards are next on my list, followed by CDT. Because the Testudo sp. aren't as prone to pyramiding, I don't anticipate anyone trying this with them. Stars anyone? How about aldabras or galops? Those are often pyramided.

Kristina, I don't know if your theory is right or wrong, but I wanted to throw what I know in to the mix. The water where I live is very hard and alkaline. Perfect for African Cichlids or saltwater mixing. The well water at my ranch is seriously alkaline and VERY heavy with minerals. I spray them with this water all day long and soak them in it one to three times a day. One of the "problems" I'm experiencing with this new method of raising torts is hard water stains and mineral deposits on the carapace. Granted my substrate is wet coco coir or an orchid bark mix and these are probably acidic, but with that much highly alkaline water on them all day, every day, I would expect to see the problems you describe in my collection if your theory were correct.


----------



## Madkins007

kyryah said:


> Personally I think the shell rot has less to do with the moisture and more to do with the presence of fungal spores and improper pH level. On humans, skin, hair and nails have an acid pH. If the same is true for tortoises, then a substrate that is too alkaline could cause "burns" or erosions of the outer layer of the scute material, the same way a strong alkali soap causes human skin to crack and be irritated, or human hair to become brittle and break easily.



In contrast, I have had my worst shell rots on acidic substrates- sphagnum moss, etc. I was wondering (and still sort of do) if wet acidity is an issue, eating away at the outer layers. It might well be that either too high or too low a pH level has a similar effect.



Tom said:


> Thanks Mark. Those things trouble me too. I think in the next few years, we'll have most of the answers.
> 
> On point number 1: Terry K and I have talked several times about this. I won't speak for Terry, but my best educated GUESS is this: Sulcatas live down underground in the dirt and nastiness. They poop and pee in their burrows to keep up humidity and then lay in their own filth. I think for this reason, they have evolved a much greater resistance to anything that would attack their plastron. By contrast, the redfoot lives primarily above ground and moves to a new area after depositing waste. They don't lay in their own filth, and other than rainy days their plastrons probably stay relatively dry.



That is an interesting possibility, but Red-foots do often use dens, armadillo holes, root shelters, etc. and are known to return to the same site over and over- even to making visible trails. They are also known to rest and digest for days or even months at a time in the same place (Moscovitz, Vinke, Vetter). I cannot say I have ever seen a comment about the relative filthiness of the hides, though. 

Probably needs more pondering.




Tom said:


> On point number 2: I think that most would consider my area "tortoise friendly", but I've had nothing but failure for 20 years. I've had to go to extreme lengths to raise and maintain humidity, and honestly, I don't know if I could do it outside of my reptile room. I'm going to try it with some of my next batch of hatchlings in the spring. They make automatic misters. I actually have one, but prefer to do it by hand.



This is what amazes me. You, Fife, etc.- trouble and trouble in Florida, So. California, etc., then trying even higher yet levels of humidity/moisture with success. What hope do those of us closer to Canada than to Mexico have?  Sometimes I feel like we'd have to raise our torts underwater to get the same humidity/moisture!*

*Note for newbies or the humor impaired- that was a JOKE. I would never do it underwater... although maybe a few inches of warmed water would work????


----------



## Becki

At what age do the swampy conditions and frequent sprayings lessen? I believe my sulcata is just below yours in age Tom...hatched in June. So far he's smooth as can be. When can I relax?


----------



## DeanS

Becki said:


> At what age do the swampy conditions and frequent sprayings lessen? I believe my sulcata is just below yours in age Tom...hatched in June. So far he's smooth as can be. When can I relax?



It will depend equally on age and size. Generally, 3 or 4 years if the animal grows slow. As size goes, 10 inches is the point at which you're going to know if pyramiding is going to remain an issue or not...if it continues to show a smooth carapace with NO signs of pyramiding whatsoever, then you can ease up on the misting (in pther words, STOP)...soaking at least twice a week will suffice at this point...though you should (of course) continue to keep things HOT and HUMID!


----------



## Tom

Madkins007 said:


> This is what amazes me. You, Fife, etc.- trouble and trouble in Florida, So. California, etc., then trying even higher yet levels of humidity/moisture with success. What hope do those of us closer to Canada than to Mexico have?  Sometimes I feel like we'd have to raise our torts underwater to get the same humidity/moisture!*



I don't mean to be dense, but what does North or South have to do with an indoor hatchling enclosure in regard to humidity? I don't think there are too many areas in the entire country that are as dry as it is here in the Southern CA desert. Humidity has always been nearly impossible for me to maintain here. This is one of the main reasons I don't keep redfoots.



Becki said:


> At what age do the swampy conditions and frequent sprayings lessen? I believe my sulcata is just below yours in age Tom...hatched in June. So far he's smooth as can be. When can I relax?



The number I've heard from the majority of people I've talked to is 6-8". We used to get smooth 4" wild caught ones back in the early nineties and nothing we did would make those pyramid.

I don't think age has much to do with it. Its mostly size.

BTW, how big is yours? Length and weight? Mine are growing way faster than any others I've ever raised.


----------



## Becki

I guess I have a way to go still. He is 70 gms and 3.5 inches with a really high dome.....like a ball with legs.


----------



## Kristina

I am going to adjust my theory, based on a couple things.

I said previously that human skin, hair, and nails are acid based. As Tom stated, he has very highly alkaline water.

I raise Mystery snails, pomacea bridgesii. These are like the snails you see in aquarium stores, but mine are selectively bred for color, and very vivid and I have a wider range of colors than you see in stores, purples, magentas, etc. I raise them in very hard, alkaline water, because if they are raised in softer, acidic water, their shells become pitted and brittle, and holes can actually appear.

From what I know of the shells of the snails, it is a safe assumption that the shell material of tortoises would have a similar reaction to acidity. So, what if the opposite of what I said originally were true? That it is in fact the acidic substrates causing erosions that in turn allow fungus spores to seat themselves in the plastron?


----------



## Madkins007

Tom said:


> I don't mean to be dense, but what does North or South have to do with an indoor hatchling enclosure in regard to humidity? I don't think there are too many areas in the entire country that are as dry as it is here in the Southern CA desert. Humidity has always been nearly impossible for me to maintain here. This is one of the main reasons I don't keep redfoots.



Temperature and its relation to relative humidity would be my guess. Us northerly people have to contend with lower temps, so while the relative humidity may be high, the actual amount of water in the air at 65F is much less than it would be at 80F. I know 80% relative humidity feels and acts differently at 65F than it does at 80F- hair frizzing, for example.

Does this make a difference? I dunno. Heck, maybe barometric pressure is the key. 

I understand and applaud your climate-based decision to avoid Red-foots! I don't keep Sulcata for a similar reason- no good winter space big enough. By rights, I SHOULD probably focus on Russians, etc. that can better handle our climate.

Now- that would be interesting- a tortoise selection guide keyed off 'growing zones' or climate?


----------



## Tom

Becki said:


> I guess I have a way to go still. He is 70 gms and 3.5 inches with a really high dome.....like a ball with legs.



You have got to post pics! Mine don't seem all that high domed, but they do seem very wide. Mine are all right around 3.25" and their weights are between 113-123 grams.


----------



## Tom

I didn't get good pics today, but they are looking better than ever. Their weights are now 138, 154 and 142, respectively.


----------



## Tom

Okay, I got one decent indoor pic.

Tuck and Trey


----------



## HarleyK

Hi Tom I'm wondering how you prevent shell rot from occuring when it's that humid? I would think that your torts would have some sort of contact fungus also?


----------



## Madkins007

HarleyK said:


> Hi Tom I'm wondering how you prevent shell rot from occuring when it's that humid? I would think that your torts would have some sort of contact fungus also?



Drainage and good substrate choice, especially for Red-foots which are prone to the contact form of shell rot.


----------



## Tom

HarleyK said:


> Hi Tom I'm wondering how you prevent shell rot from occuring when it's that humid? I would think that your torts would have some sort of contact fungus also?



I've got sulcatas and pp leopards on four different kinds of substrate and they are all wet, like in the pic, all day long. NO shell rot of any kind, ever. Nothing but healthy growing flat plastrons. Carapaces are pretty smooth too.

Some days, when I have time I just keep their shells wet all day long for hours at a time. As soon as their carapace looks like its starting to dry a little, I just spray it again. Also, the substrate isn't damp, its wet. They say you shouldn't be able to squeeze water out of your coco coir. I can fill a cup with water squeezed out of handful of mine.

Bottom line is: Sulcatas, and now pp leopards it seems, are very resistant to shell rot. Redfoots are not, from what I'm told. I tell the whole story of how I reached this conclusion in one of the "End Of Pyramiding" threads, but it was a bout a three year process. Dean keeps his sulcatas in a pool of water for several hours a day. They can haul out if they want, but he says they usually don't. He's got some really healthy torts too.


----------



## vyeates409

Tom said:


> I thought a lot about what to name this thread. I intend for it to go on for several years, so I had to pick something fitting. So be careful how you reply to this thread, as it will be read by many for a long time to come.
> 
> One way or another, the following will be one more nail in the coffin for pyramiding in our captive raised tortoises. Either these babies will grow smooth or they won't. If they do grow smooth then we will all know that humidity and hydration is the key. If they don't grow smooth, then we will know that there is more to it than just humidity and hydration and further experimentation will be necessary. It is my goal to end pyramiding forever. Credit must be given to Richard Fife as the one who put this idea in my head. This is his discovery. I'm only testing his theory here, in public view.
> 
> I will post pics here of all milestones and at least monthly, so that everyone can watch their growth. I'll use the same scale and tape measure on the same counter to keep it all consistent.
> 
> I'll be raising these new babies the same way, with the same diet, the same set-up, same temps, in the same room, on the same ranch, with the same outdoor sunning enclosures, the same supplements in the same quantities, as their parents, my older, pyramided ones. The only thing different will be humidity and hydration. They'll get daily warm water soaks, frequent carapace mistings, damp substrate, humid hide boxes and drinking water always available. Outdoors, their sunning/exercise enclosures will get a thorough wet down each time I put them in there.
> 
> This is Mr. Man. Pipped on 5-15-2010. He's still in the brood box absorbing the remainder of his yolk sac.
> My digital caliper decided to stop working despite battery replacement so I'm having to estimate length using a tape measure. He's right around 5cm and 35 grams.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is Dimple. He started trying to bust out of his shell on 5-12-2010. I helped him get through the leathery inner membrane on 5-14-2010 and he stuck his head out on 5-16-2010. He's also 5cm, but only 32 grams. He's much less active than Mr. Man at this point. He's also still absorbing his yolk sack.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here they are together in the brood box with the lid removed. Room temp is 80-85. Their enclosure is ready for them, I'm just waiting for them to absorb the rest of their yolk sacks and start eating.


----------



## davy89

Wow so thats a lot of information about pyramiding over those last 16 pages 

Again Tom, forgive me if it seems like I'm asking stupid questions, but would you apply this same theory of humidity to Leopards? Should I be spraying their carapace 3-4 times a day and keeping them on a wet substrate?

I'm not slating your theory as I'm a complete newbie and have about 2 months of experience at this stage. In fact quite the opposite, I'm starting to panic now about how to keep them humid! I'm just a bit overwhelmed by all of the different opinions and results that are popping up everywhere.

My 2 Leos, which we estimate to be about a year and a half, are both very smooth. But the breeders who I got them from had them on aspen bedding as a substrate which was kept dry, in a very dry environment. The same I have them on now. They get their regular soakings, but they haven't had there carapace sprayed or anything like that. 

Would you suggest that I start doing this now? Is pyramiding likely to be a problem in them if I don't? and what's your opinion on the substrate I'm using, are you against the aspen bedding? Should I be keeping them on a wet substrate?

I think this thread is an excellent Idea and an overwhelmingly valuable resource for inexperienced keepers like myself, keep up the good work Tom.

Dave


----------



## jackrat

My redfoots have been on a swampy wet substrate for a year without any shell rot.


----------



## Tom

Lots of good questions Davy.

I am doing this exact same thing with a whole bunch of pardalis pardalis leopard hatchlings. So far, its working like a charm.

How about posting some pics of your leopards? Love to see how smooth they are. At 1.5 years, there isn't going to be a lot of benefit to changing things up now. The pattern for shell grow is established in the first few weeks or months of life. Yours must have been started very well if they are still smooth without a humid hide box, humid substrate, shell sprays and or daily soaks and such. Did you get them from Richard Fife at Ivorytortoise.com? I know he uses aspen bedding along with a humid hide box and has had very good results. He's one of the few producing smooth hatchlings.

The thing to be careful about is don't let them get cold and wet at the same time. If you do decide to make changes, understand that all that evaporation will cool things down significantly and you'll have to bump up the heat a bit.

If what you are doing is working, then I wouldn't change anything. If yours are smooth and you've only had them for two months, I'd really like to know what was done for them early on. You do know that it is NOT normal for a year and a half old leopard to be smooth, right? We've been doing it all wrong for 30 years and are only just figuring it out in the last 2 or 3 years.

Can you contact the person you got them from and ask them what the routine was and how they were grown so smooth? This thread is for me to learn too.


----------



## franeich

Thaught this might interest you Tom.
http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/humidity-pyrmiding-sulcata-tortois.pdf


----------



## franeich

http://africantortoise.com/_sulcatadiet2.pdf


----------



## Tom

franeich said:


> http://africantortoise.com/_sulcatadiet2.pdf



Thanks franeich. I have not seen the first part that you posted, but the second one is referred to earlier on in this thread. Makes a pretty compelling case, I think. When you couple this study with what is being observed here in the real world, it all starts to make a lot of sense.


----------



## gummybearpoop

Wow.

A LOT of pages. Don't have time to read through it all

I live in a climate similar to Tom's....though we have some nice heat records like 100 days in a row of a 100+ degree heat. Even now it is still 95 degrees here with 15% humidity. I have kept hatchlings indoors and outdoors. Raised some redfoots indoors as well without much pyramiding when I had them.

Well, I will just give a little of my experience in the Sonoran Desert. I try to spray my tortoises once every day or two. I use a humid hide (piece of card board or half a plastic flower pot) with moist sphagnum moss under it. I soak my baby tortoises (under a year) once every 1-2 days, and yearlings to two-year olds 2-3 times a week. There have been several times where I am gone for a week and unable to water my tortoises. In addition, I have kept babies outside as well for the entire summer and provided places for them to hide. I spray them down once every day or two. My pens are planted very well.

Here is one tortoise raised in the manner described above....pretty much all my tortoises' shells look like the pictures attached.


----------



## HarleyK

Wow I'm guessing that's the same tort....very pretty! So what is the humidity in the indoor enclosures?



gummybearpoop said:


> Wow.
> 
> A LOT of pages. Don't have time to read through it all
> 
> I live in a climate similar to Tom's....though we have some nice heat records like 100 days in a row of a 100+ degree heat. Even now it is still 95 degrees here with 15% humidity. I have kept hatchlings indoors and outdoors. Raised some redfoots indoors as well without much pyramiding when I had them.
> 
> Well, I will just give a little of my experience in the Sonoran Desert. I try to spray my tortoises once every day or two. I use a humid hide (piece of card board or half a plastic flower pot) with moist sphagnum moss under it. I soak my baby tortoises (under a year) once every 1-2 days, and yearlings to two-year olds 2-3 times a week. There have been several times where I am gone for a week and unable to water my tortoises. In addition, I have kept babies outside as well for the entire summer and provided places for them to hide. I spray them down once every day or two. My pens are planted very well.
> 
> Here is one tortoise raised in the manner described above....pretty much all my tortoises' shells look like the pictures attached.


----------



## Tom

New weights and Pics:

Tuck is up to 151 grams.






Tulee is now the largest at 174 grams.






Trey, the one who was hatched two weeks after the first two, has overtaken Tuck. He is at 164 grams now.





All three continue to do well and have just moved up to a 100 gallon glass tank with wet coco chips as a substrate. Tulee likes to hide out in the humid hide box a lot. Tuck and Trey tend to sit right where they are in the pic. They sat in these same spots in there 40 gal.


----------



## Seiryu

Tom, kind of off subject. But how deep is that huge plant saucer in the pic?

It looks shallow (great for little guys) but around here, all the ones that size are really deep. Where did you get it?

I really want one that size (Thor is getting close to outgrowing his current dish).

Or maybe it's not as big as I think it is since your guys are so small.


----------



## Tom

Seiryu said:


> Tom, kind of off subject. But how deep is that huge plant saucer in the pic?
> 
> It looks shallow (great for little guys) but around here, all the ones that size are really deep. Where did you get it?
> 
> I really want one that size (Thor is getting close to outgrowing his current dish).
> 
> Or maybe it's not as big as I think it is since your guys are so small.



Its just a little over 1/2 inch deep. I got it at Lowes. I have a bunch of different sizes and they are all just right in depth for the size tortoise I need it for.


----------



## gtlightning

i sat down and read this thread all at once and there is a lot of info here. i don't remember what page or post it was on but some one was arguing that "they (tortoise's) get the moisture from there food not a watering dish". forgive me if that is worded wrong, but Cleetus runs back and forth between his food dish and watering dish all the time. sorry for the poor picture but i used my phone.


----------



## Kristina

They look absolutely fantastic, Tom!

So when can I expect delivery of the three torts AND the 100 gal?


----------



## Tom

kyryah said:


> They look absolutely fantastic, Tom!
> 
> So when can I expect delivery of the three torts AND the 100 gal?




There is a price for everything. Did you win the lottery yet?




gtlightning said:


> i sat down and read this thread all at once and there is a lot of info here. i don't remember what page or post it was on but some one was arguing that "they (tortoise's) get the moisture from there food not a watering dish". forgive me if that is worded wrong, but Cleetus runs back and forth between his food dish and watering dish all the time. sorry for the poor picture but i used my phone.



The old, incorrect line is that "tortoises get ALL the water they need form their food". Most of them can survive for quite a long time with no water other than the metabolic water produced by digestion. The key word there is SURVIVE. I don't want my torts to just survive, I want them to THRIVE! And I think most other people do too.

Cleetus is gorgeous. I think we need a Cleetus thread with lots more pics and whatever info you can give us on his care. He sure looks good.


----------



## cknfrmr

Wow this was a lot of reading took me a couple of hours. But it was well worth it. I got my first Sulcata hatchling back at beginning of sept. And read everything it could get my hands on. Didnt see this one though but did come across another one written by Tom which talked about keeping the a sulcata encloser hot and humid. Which is the route i went with. 

The substrate is a sand/potting soil mix about 3 inches deep with 2 inches of ZOO MED Eco Earth on top of it. I am very happy to say there is no signs of pyramiding. I spray the whole thing down every morning.

Just from what i have done for my tortoise at my house the heat and humidity thing seems to work and thats just my personal opion and i am just starting out with only 2 months experiance.


----------



## Tom

cknfrmr said:


> Wow this was a lot of reading took me a couple of hours. But it was well worth it. I got my first Sulcata hatchling back at beginning of sept. And read everything it could get my hands on. Didnt see this one though but did come across another one written by Tom which talked about keeping the a sulcata encloser hot and humid. Which is the route i went with.
> 
> The substrate is a sand/potting soil mix about 3 inches deep with 2 inches of ZOO MED Eco Earth on top of it. I am very happy to say there is no signs of pyramiding. I spray the whole thing down every morning.
> 
> Just from what i have done for my tortoise at my house the heat and humidity thing seems to work and thats just my personal opion and i am just starting out with only 2 months experiance.



This is all such new info. We are all still learning here. Please post lots of pics of your torts so we can all watch them grow up and see the results of your method of raising them.


----------



## ticothetort2

Tom I noticed that you have your humid hide on the cool end of their tank, is this ok as long as you keep overall temps above 80 degrees? Just trying different set ups and want to make sure that I'm not setting myself up for failure...Thanks.


----------



## Tom

I think its fine since my whole room stays between 80 and 90 all the time, but its not the way its normally done.

They are almost 6 months old now and I cannot call them perfect anymore. Yes, the "high and mighty" Tom is having to eat some humble pie and I don't like the taste. Just when I thought Mr. Pyramiding was down for the count he's trying really hard to rear his UGLY head again.

The purpose of this thread and experiment was to learn, and share what I learned with everyone. It didn't matter whether I failed or succeeded, the point was to advance knowledge. We have succeeded in that, but as you can see in the pics, there is still more to be learned. I have been contending based on what I've seen that pyramiding is purely about humidity, hydration and moisture for babies. Well, again, I've learned the hard way that there IS more to it than that.

They were perfect up to about four months, and then I started seeing just a hint of imperfection. Mind you, they are still the smoothest and healthiest torts I've ever raised or seen, they just aren't "perfect" anymore. I've been racking my brain and obsessing even more than usual over this and I keep coming back to one thing: Calcium. Several people, including Danny, have emphasized the importance of calcium, and the ability to assimilate it, as a means of pyramiding prevention. Admittedly, I've been a little lax about the calcium supplementation with these guys, as I didn't think it mattered all that much. When they were around three months I got busy with work and there was some rain and weird cooler weather, and there was a stretch of about three weeks where they didn't get any sun. I didn't think it was any big deal since I've gone much longer than that with other torts, but the first hints of this started appearing shortly after that sunless, low Ca, stint. I can't say conclusively that not enough Ca in combination with a period of not enough UV is the sole cause of this, but it seems the most logical choice. I've upped their Ca intake and put them out in the sun more often again and it seems to have halted. I'll know more after a couple more months of growth.

This is now top priority for next years hatchling experiments. Scooter and Delores have been busy making new test subjects for us. One group of hatchlings next year are going to get a full time MVB and DAILY Ca. Another group are going to get primarily Mazuri, which has lots of Ca and D already in it. All groups will continue to get the wet routine.

I will not rest until I completely figure this pyramiding thing out and KILL it. Hard.


----------



## Balboa

Now Tom, I hate to see you beating yourself up. I realize I'm a NewB and NOT a Sully expert, but as I understand it there's a "normal" amount of "pyramiding" that will be evident in most species, which comes from trying to make a round object out of hard plates. The idea is for added material to create the overall "effect" of a rounded carapace. The plates will have to get thicker to accomodate this. When I lookly closely at "smooth" torts, there are still clearly visible growth lines and bumps, and that's what I see in these little guys, the overall effect is still a rounded carapace.

Also consider that these guys aren't subject to all the wear and tear they'd see in their natural environment. Constant burrowing, scraping under/around rocks and branches will wear at a carapace. As adults sand and dirt in the wind. A Tortoise shell needs to be a beefy construct. Rainforest species likely get less of this sort of wear, so may naturally tend to put on less robust layers, and suffer more dramatically if they do.

just my 2 cents, you're doing great bud.


----------



## Madkins007

Lessee... you are thinking calcium and sunshine (UVB, D3, etc.) and Dr. Mader thinks diet and exercise play a key role... (can you hear the gears turning?)

If we think about scutes like human fingernails- which they are basically identical to in many ways- then this makes sense. Human nails get brittle, soft, ridged, etc. when our diet is poor, when we are exposed to various toxins or chemicals, when we have a variety of disease issues, etc.

So, maybe we need to keep the scutes from drying out so they move correctly as the tortoise grows, but they also need the right materials to be built correctly, and the tortoise needs the sort of 'playing in the sunshine' care we used to tell our kids all of the time (as in "Its a beautiful day outside, get out of your room and go play!")

Another faint possibility- I know I have read somewhere that someone experimented with hides that applied a little pressure or contact to the shell and got better than usual results. We rarely raise our babies in 'tight' hides, and maybe we should?

(FYI- I especially like photos 7 and 9- you could turn them into some kick-butt logos or avatars)


----------



## Tom

I've been seeing a lot of those kind of hides lately. It seems they are catching on. I May have to do some messin' with that.


----------



## DeanS

Tom said:


> I've been seeing a lot of those kind of hides lately. It seems they are catching on. I May have to do some messin' with that.



I thought Fife was doing this with hides several years back...am I wrong? I always thought it was a great idea but never tried to implement it...about a year ago I started using the sterilites and loosely stuffing them with hay and coir (soaked...the coir, not the hay). It's worked well for me so I figured 'why change?'

Tom...those pictures are fantastic...they look like yearlings...on steroids!

*YOU ARE THE GURU!*


----------



## Kristina

Tom - I do NOT see a pyramided baby. I see a baby with growth rings typical of a captive bred tortoise, that has not wore its shell smooth digging and being, well, a wild tortoise, and a baby that has grown too fast. The gaps that you are seeing between the scutes are a result of overfeeding, NOT typical "pyramiding."

When you feed them more and also feed something higher in protein - such as Mazuri - they grow faster. It causes valleys between the scutes. This is why Terry K. not only says "mist them til the drip" but also "keep 'em HUNGRY!"

My advice? Keep up with the misting, and everything else you have been doing, and slow down on the food! Limit the Mazuri especially. It is designed for fast growth. This is a typical side effect.

I know Terry's experience is with Redfoots, not Sulcatas, but ask him what he thinks. 

You have said multiple times how fast these babies are growing. I am positive this is your problem.


----------



## DeanS

OK! Kristina...Tom and I are following basically the same path, but with slight variations. The difference here is that I offer my torts a good amount of food, but they do not have consistenly ravenous appetites. The only things that they will demolish is opuntia and Santa Barbara Mix (endive, escarole and radicchio). They get Mazuri/Grassland every three or four days...and they eat it, but they don't scarf it! Look at the picture...I don't see any difference in development between Tom's and mine...except for size...mine are about half the size of his but their development has remained a constant. 

*PLEASE NOTE: The pyramiding on Eggroll is what she had when I got her the end of last winter...it's there and it always will be...but it hasn't grown with her...so I think it's under control...I welcome your thoughts!


----------



## Kristina

Your babies look "gapped" to me too. I tell you what, I am starting to think it is the Mazuri. It is a common denominator. I don't honestly know. 

On Snowflake, is it? you can see the space in between the scutes. It isn't so much pushed up as spread apart.

Now, on Eggroll I can see the "buttons" of pyramiding, but between it is "smooth" growth, however - there is that gap again in between the scutes.

It is harder to see on the little dark colored one. It just looks like dark lines. But I can really see what I am talking about on the ivories.

GAH I NEED a Sulcata baby... I need some hands on....


----------



## DeanS

So the possibility (probability?) that a better protein source be implemented seems to be the case to me...which could bring us full circle to the '...carnivorous...' thread...YES? I've only been using Mazuri for about 4 months now...however all the babies were started on it by the breeders. It wasn't until I started using it in June that their appetites picked up! Again! I still use it only once or twice a week...but is that enough to cause this 'gapping'?


----------



## Annieski

I know I have pm'd Tom with my thoughts--since this "thread" started. I decided to throw my $.02 in because I am thinking the same way Kyryah questioned the "amount of food" still being offered. If the season has changed [in Africa] even if the change is not as drastic as our seasons--there would theorectically be a "reduced food source". What if Mother Natures design for reptiles, especially Sulcata, was to have them hatch, during a time of "plenty" to eat--to get them to a point of good weight, firm shell, and conservative hydration--to be able to handle the "famine". During this time, there would not be much growth, since the animal would be in aestivation mode and surviving in slow gear 'til the Spring/Summer time of plenty. I do think dessert areas have at least 2 seasons[ with winter only being a few months].If my thinking is correct, the "timing" falls into place with Tom's theory of when pryamiding happens.It would also[IMO] explain the "old thinking" of a diet "too high in protein" being a component--maybe it's not that it's too high--but more too much. From what I have read about the digestive system of Sulcata, it is different from ours in that we NEED to eliminate every day. Sulcata design is to CONSERVE, for periods of food scarcity as well as water. Nutrient and hydration is re-absorbed from feces and urine[which would explain the thinking that a Sulcata will only pee if it has a water source to replenish itself]. I applaud Tom for the strides he has made so far. Perhaps this is now the next chapterof trying to get the answers to the questions. JMO


----------



## Redfoot NERD

Annieski said:


> I know I have pm'd Tom with my thoughts--since this "thread" started. I decided to throw my $.02 in because I am thinking the same way Kyryah questioned the "amount of food" still being offered. If the season has changed [in Africa] even if the change is not as drastic as our seasons--there would theorectically be a "reduced food source". What if Mother Natures design for reptiles, especially Sulcata, was to have them hatch, during a time of "plenty" to eat--to get them to a point of good weight, firm shell, and conservative hydration--to be able to handle the "famine". During this time, there would not be much growth, since the animal would be in aestivation mode and surviving in slow gear 'til the Spring/Summer time of plenty. I do think dessert areas have at least 2 seasons[ with winter only being a few months].If my thinking is correct, the "timing" falls into place with Tom's theory of when pryamiding happens.It would also[IMO] explain the "old thinking" of a diet "too high in protein" being a component--maybe it's not that it's too high--but more too much. From what I have read about the digestive system of Sulcata, it is different from ours in that we NEED to eliminate every day. Sulcata design is to CONSERVE, for periods of food scarcity as well as water. Nutrient and hydration is re-absorbed from feces and urine[which would explain the thinking that a Sulcata will only pee if it has a water source to replenish itself]. I applaud Tom for the strides he has made so far. Perhaps this is now the next chapterof trying to get the answers to the questions. JMO



YOU GOT IT!!!!! Finally............. the gap *between* the scutes is the rapid even growth.. maintained by the consistant carapace moisture!

Yes - 2 seasons.. wet and dry! Little temp changes!

I have pics of my adult female shortly after she was acquired.. and maybe a year later - I'll have to look.

Terry K

I found them -

Note dates in pics..






A year later - ( especially between the vertebrals and costals )






Typical "captive" OVERFEEDING.. let's all learn from this! Does this principle apply to hatchlings?.. seems like it

Yesterday afternoon Tom and I discussed these very things on the phone. I explained his babies no longer look like "China dolls".. they are beginning to look like tortoise youngsters! The best 'youngsters' he or most have ever seen!!! They now have 'texture'.....

NERD


----------



## Tom

Not saying right or wrong on the over feeding thing. You two might be right. Here are a couple of points to ponder: Point #1: When I got my first sulcata in the early 90's I fed it light. It grew slow and it pyramided. I figured that I must have fed it too much, so I fed the next one lighter. It grew slower and still pyramided. This went on for a while and when I finally got Bert and Scooter in '98, I really went overboard with the "feed them light and grow them slow" stuff, out of frustration over repeated failure. (Kind of the same way I went overboard with Daisy and the moisture, humidity and hydration thing, but look where that took us all.) The result of that is tiny 12 year old 43 pound adult males. So understand why I'm leery of "under-feeding" or "growing them slower". Once bitten, twice shy.

Point #2: This super hydration and humidity thing has produced healthy accelerated growth in my other species as well. Remember my tiny little hatchling black throated monitors lizards from back in January? I just fed them normally, like I do all my monitor lizards, and they hit 4' in six months. This is un-heard of! Kristina knows what I'm talking about. They were in my warm humid reptile room, with a thick humid substrate, a humid hide and regular soaks. They simply thrived! They outgrew their 100 gallon tank in three months. Now at 11 months old they are already breeding.

These sulcatas are the first torts that I have ever raised from hatchlings with the wet routine. I don't feed them any more than any other tort, but they are growing really fast, just like my monitors did. They only get Mazuri once or twice a week in small amounts mixed in with their other greens. And they really aren't very "greedy" anyway. My leopards are more into the food than they are lately. As they've grown all of the past "rough spots" have sort of faded away and now we are seeing some new "rough spots" around the growth ring areas. I'm guessing that these will fade too. I suppose I'm just being paranoid. I see that evil pyramiding monster around every blind corner and hiding under every rock. He has haunted me for so long, I'm having trouble coming to terms with the fact that I actually killed him.

Time will answer many of these questions for us. I knew this would be a long road and much would be learned and discussed along the way


----------



## Annieski

I don't think you should focus soooo much on past mistakes. You have found a way to alter HATCHLING growth for smooth shell in a way that corrected the "usual" hatchling pyramiding. If that was the "understood" thinking[keep 'em dry] of tortoise husbandry --you have made great strides to expell that thinking. Now you're at the next level. Up to now---there has been very little known for EXACT values of anything. If this is a time where you are noticing changes in your "youngin's'" then you must follow the path that will lead to correcting the "next" phase of sub-optimal growth. Even in humans--- there are different times for "growth" to have a rapid/slower process["he sprout-up like a weed" or "he seemed to grow OVERNIGHT"]. This phase of developement may just be the time when growth of shell and bone isn't as critical, as maturation of internal organs and systems[human babies need time for the digestive system to mature before it can break down a good juicy steak dinner]. If my thinking is correct---our torts never know that it is winter--even though MotherNature's wild babes have no choice.


----------



## Tom

When you phrase it that way, it sure makes a lot of sense. I've been watching my little girl develop in just the way you describe too. As my torts get older, I do generally let them "feel" the seasons a bit. But at this age I tend to baby them a bit. Terry had to remind me yesterday that they aren't hatchlings anymore. At 6 months they can handle a little more.

We'll all be fine-tuning things for some time, I suspect.


----------



## Redfoot NERD

Tom we're not talking about 'pyramiding' from the feeding/humidity curse you were under.. we're talking about the evidence of over-feeding which is an entirely different thing than 'pyramiding/stacking' growth. We talked about that yesterday.

A multitude of times we've heard on forums [ and personal emails.. I have ] about how "My baby just scarfs down as much as they can eat as fast as they can.. 2 or 3 times a day!!! Could it be they are feeding "empty" greens?.. and the babies are trying to get the nutrients needed for the "get-established" growth cycle? DUH.....

Yes.. you did kill that 'pyramiding-monster' in your camp --- beware of his brother the "space-between-the-scutes" from over-feeding monster. 

I realize there is quite a bit of experience/difference between 6 months and 6 years! I'm patient...

Terry K


----------



## Madkins007

OK, I've looked at Tom's pictures over and over, as closely as I can, and I do not see a wide growth ring from overeating. I see one thickened ring a couple of rings old, but the rest seem to be nicely spaced and close together.

If the growth lines are that close and neat, how do you know it is overeating and not undernourished? So little food that it is barely adding growth lines, like a tree during a bad season?

Just curious.


----------



## DeanS

I used a horse trough as a pool for my last Burmese python "Baby"...I kept feeding records, collected sloughs and long story short...she was a little more than 11' by her first birthday...she made use of the trough all the time...swimming, drinking and soaking. Water is obviously the key...but protein sources have to be scrutinized...I already mentioned that I've decided against introducing pinkies to the yearlings...I'm curious if insects are the natural course of action...crickets? roaches? I've seen adult sulcatas munch on snails like it was second-nature!~


----------



## spikethebest

I would just like to announce that as of TODAY! ....


This thread is the 2nd most replied too thread in the entire forum!

Congrats to everyone who contributed to the benefit of all tortoises around the globe. 

and a special Thanks to Tom for starting it all!


----------



## Madkins007

IMPORTANT UPDATE!!!

I had a mildly pyramided Red-foot shell I was going to cut apart to examine how the pyramids are formed, and as I was looking at it and photographing it in preparation, I found a loose scute! I was able to peel it off and examine things closely.

I'll post photos later today, but the key points are:
1. The BONE FOLLOWS THE PYRAMID! 
2. The pyramided scute is so thin you can see though the pale central area. (I know someone earlier mentioned these two points, but now we have photographic proof of them.)
3. The bone shows impressions of the growth lines.

While this does not change the results of Tom's experiments, it may affect our working theories and would seem to mean that even simple pyramiding is a form of MBD since bone is indeed involved.

One of many remaining questions- does the scute deform the growing bone or does the deforming bone push the scute out?


----------



## Redfoot NERD

Madkins007 said:


> OK, I've looked at Tom's pictures over and over, as closely as I can, and I do not see a wide growth ring from overeating. I see one thickened ring a couple of rings old, but the rest seem to be nicely spaced and close together.
> 
> If the growth lines are that close and neat, how do you know it is overeating and not undernourished? So little food that it is barely adding growth lines, like a tree during a bad season?
> 
> Just curious.



Mark we're not talking about a wide 'growth' ring.. we're talking about the space between each individual scute. 

I noticed it especially 5 - 6 years ago when I first acquired the adults [ posted on the "carnivorous" thread ] - alpha female Aug. '04 -






And only about a *year* later [ between vertebrals and costals ].. as a result of 'enthusiastic' feeding -






Since then I've watched how much I've fed hatchlings - adults.. at different growth 'phases'! I think I've seen a pattern. The diet has not effected the adults' ability to make eggs.

Since the main 'concern' has been on "pryamiding".. and not on growth rate.. I haven't posted much about it until now. 

Yes I do have pics over the years...

Terry K


----------



## Annieski

From a medical stand point, there are only a few conditions that are so systemically connected--- that you can't have 1---without the other. 
Scutes are part of the integumentary system [our version of skin, hair and nails---UNDER this protective layer is where you find the SKELETAL system[bone--which also includes some cartilage]. In the tortoise--the bones, that resemble human anatomy, such as our 12 pair of ribs and the bones of the spine---happen to be FUSED together. They both contribute to making the "protective housing" for the internal organs. Even though the 2 separate systems may require the same minerals,vitamins and hormones to produce healthy CELLS, it is the varied amounts that each individual cell [ie; bone/skin]---needs to replicate for "normal" growth to happen. IMO--I still believe--you can have pyramiding--without MBD----but not the other way around. I think of it in "human"terms--- I could have "ugly" finger/toenails that have thickened or have ridges, and not have an issue with the bones of my hand/foot, but most often, an underlying systemic problem-ie; cardiac insufficiency--- will present itself with clubbed fingers.


----------



## jackrat

Madkins007 said:


> IMPORTANT UPDATE!!!
> 
> I had a mildly pyramided Red-foot shell I was going to cut apart to examine how the pyramids are formed, and as I was looking at it and photographing it in preparation, I found a loose scute! I was able to peel it off and examine things closely.
> 
> I'll post photos later today, but the key points are:
> 1. The BONE FOLLOWS THE PYRAMID!
> 2. The pyramided scute is so thin you can see though the pale central area. (I know someone earlier mentioned these two points, but now we have photographic proof of them.)
> 3. The bone shows impressions of the growth lines.
> 
> While this does not change the results of Tom's experiments, it may affect our working theories and would seem to mean that even simple pyramiding is a form of MBD since bone is indeed involved.
> 
> One of many remaining questions- does the scute deform the growing bone or does the deforming bone push the scute out?


Every shell I've ever found had loose or fallen scutes.I think it's just decomposition.My humble opinion.


----------



## Kristina

Annieski said:


> IMO--I still believe--you can have pyramiding--without MBD----but not the other way around.




Google image - obvious MBD, no pyramiding. (despite the fact that they point out almost non-existent pyramiding  )








One of my own tortoises. Pyramiding is slight, obvious that this girl suffered from MBD in the past.






So yes, you absolutely can have MBD without pyramiding.


----------



## Tom

Madkins007 said:


> IMPORTANT UPDATE!!!
> 
> I had a mildly pyramided Red-foot shell I was going to cut apart to examine how the pyramids are formed, and as I was looking at it and photographing it in preparation, I found a loose scute! I was able to peel it off and examine things closely.
> 
> I'll post photos later today, but the key points are:
> 1. The BONE FOLLOWS THE PYRAMID!
> 2. The pyramided scute is so thin you can see though the pale central area. (I know someone earlier mentioned these two points, but now we have photographic proof of them.)
> 3. The bone shows impressions of the growth lines.
> 
> While this does not change the results of Tom's experiments, it may affect our working theories and would seem to mean that even simple pyramiding is a form of MBD since bone is indeed involved.
> 
> One of many remaining questions- does the scute deform the growing bone or does the deforming bone push the scute out?



Mark. That's fascinating stuff. Now we're getting somewhere. I've been waiting for a DOA for a while now, just for this reason. Please post lots of pics and share your observations.

Is the bone "spongy" looking inside? Your first three observations above speak volumes. I would really like to know the answer to that last question? Which came first the chicken or the egg? Canine hip dysplasia was another study obsession of mine a few years back. The bones of young puppies are like rubber. They don't calcify and harden up for a few months after birth. One of the ways to avoid dysplasia in breeds that are prone to it is to keep them light, grow them slow, and don't let them jump or exercise too much. It seems the muscle and tendons pull on the rubbery bones and if the muscles are too big and the pup weighs much more than normal the bones can get misshapen and then calcify that way, causing the dysplasia. I wonder if there is an element of this rubbery-ness to our torts shells during some phases of growth. Your previous starched sheet analogy, coupled with this rubbery bone theory might explain some of this. The bone conforming to the misshapen scutes would also explain why it takes years to get smooth growth, after a pattern for pyramided growth has already been established. Good lord, you are changing the direction of BONE growth. No wonder it takes so long and is so difficult.

My mind is racing with all the details and implications...


----------



## Redfoot NERD

Since we know that the internet is THE source of valuable and *true* info! See - http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/unicorn-meat.shtml

We can't leave this out of the equation Tom! For example.. how the horn of the aging Unicorn deteriorates..

Unicorns, as we all know, frolic all over the world, pooping rainbows and marshmallows wherever they go. What you don't know is that when unicorns reach the end of their lifespan, they are drawn to County Meath, Ireland. The Sisters at Radiant Farms have dedicated their lives to nursing these elegant creatures through their final days. Taking a cue from the Kobe beef industry, they massage each unicorn's coat with Guinness daily and fatten them on a diet comprised entirely of candy corn.

As the unicorn ages, its meat becomes fatty and marbled and the living bone in the horn loses density in a process much like osteoporosis. The horn's outer layer of keratin begins to develop a flavor very similar to candied almonds. Blending the crushed unicorn horn into the meat adds delightful, crispy flavor notes in each bite. We are confident you will find a world of bewilderment in every mouthful of scrumptious unicorn meat.

Your mind has to be racing now I'm sure............... 

NERD


----------



## Tom

Redfoot NERD said:


> Since we know that the internet is THE source of valuable and *true* info! See - http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/unicorn-meat.shtml
> 
> We can't leave this out of the equation Tom! For example.. how the horn of the aging Unicorn deteriorates..
> 
> Unicorns, as we all know, frolic all over the world, pooping rainbows and marshmallows wherever they go. What you don't know is that when unicorns reach the end of their lifespan, they are drawn to County Meath, Ireland. The Sisters at Radiant Farms have dedicated their lives to nursing these elegant creatures through their final days. Taking a cue from the Kobe beef industry, they massage each unicorn's coat with Guinness daily and fatten them on a diet comprised entirely of candy corn.
> 
> As the unicorn ages, its meat becomes fatty and marbled and the living bone in the horn loses density in a process much like osteoporosis. The horn's outer layer of keratin begins to develop a flavor very similar to candied almonds. Blending the crushed unicorn horn into the meat adds delightful, crispy flavor notes in each bite. We are confident you will find a world of bewilderment in every mouthful of scrumptious unicorn meat.
> 
> Your mind has to be racing now I'm sure...............
> 
> NERD



... sarcastic old fart...


----------



## Balboa

jackrat said:


> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> IMPORTANT UPDATE!!!
> 
> I had a mildly pyramided Red-foot shell I was going to cut apart to examine how the pyramids are formed, and as I was looking at it and photographing it in preparation, I found a loose scute! I was able to peel it off and examine things closely.
> 
> I'll post photos later today, but the key points are:
> 1. The BONE FOLLOWS THE PYRAMID!
> 2. The pyramided scute is so thin you can see though the pale central area. (I know someone earlier mentioned these two points, but now we have photographic proof of them.)
> 3. The bone shows impressions of the growth lines.
> 
> While this does not change the results of Tom's experiments, it may affect our working theories and would seem to mean that even simple pyramiding is a form of MBD since bone is indeed involved.
> 
> One of many remaining questions- does the scute deform the growing bone or does the deforming bone push the scute out?
> 
> 
> 
> Every shell I've ever found had loose or fallen scutes.I think it's just decomposition.My humble opinion.
Click to expand...


Jack, if I'm following both you and Mark right I think you missed the point. I believe Mark is talking about the deformed bone causing a deformed scute (in regards to "popping out") not about the scute just falling off from decomposition.

And yes, this is fascinating stuff Mark! 



Tom said:


> Redfoot NERD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since we know that the internet is THE source of valuable and *true* info! See - http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/unicorn-meat.shtml
> 
> We can't leave this out of the equation Tom! For example.. how the horn of the aging Unicorn deteriorates..
> 
> Unicorns, as we all know, frolic all over the world, pooping rainbows and marshmallows wherever they go. What you don't know is that when unicorns reach the end of their lifespan, they are drawn to County Meath, Ireland. The Sisters at Radiant Farms have dedicated their lives to nursing these elegant creatures through their final days. Taking a cue from the Kobe beef industry, they massage each unicorn's coat with Guinness daily and fatten them on a diet comprised entirely of candy corn.
> 
> As the unicorn ages, its meat becomes fatty and marbled and the living bone in the horn loses density in a process much like osteoporosis. The horn's outer layer of keratin begins to develop a flavor very similar to candied almonds. Blending the crushed unicorn horn into the meat adds delightful, crispy flavor notes in each bite. We are confident you will find a world of bewilderment in every mouthful of scrumptious unicorn meat.
> 
> Your mind has to be racing now I'm sure...............
> 
> NERD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... sarcastic old fart...
Click to expand...


+1 I couldn't for the life of me think of how to respond to Terry on this one, I was laughing too hard, Tom did it perfectly


----------



## Tom

He knows I mean that with the utmost respect...

Brash young whipper-snappers need sarcastic old farts to reel them in sometimes...


----------



## Annieski

kyryah said:


> Annieski said:
> 
> 
> 
> IMO--I still believe--you can have pyramiding--without MBD----but not the other way around.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google image - obvious MBD, no pyramiding. (despite the fact that they point out almost non-existent pyramiding  )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of my own tortoises. Pyramiding is slight, obvious that this girl suffered from MBD in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So yes, you absolutely can have MBD without pyramiding.
Click to expand...


Kristina--I see pyramiding in both of those animals. I believe the "deformed" shell is a good indicator of MBD. I disagree though, about the swollen limbs. Puffiness and/or swollen limbs is an indication of Kidney and Cardiac problems--of which--both can be a direct result of MBD due to calcium leeching. When trying to find an answer to a question---sometimes I can get off the right path. My point was to be that---just because you have one symptom---it's cause is not necessarily from only 1 thing. And because "systems" work together for the whole organism to thrive, you must look at each part to find how it contributes to the whole.


----------



## Balboa

OK.
thinking about the mechanics involved here. 
As I understood it from Danny, the entire scute grows another layer underneath, but that doesn't fit with what Mark found.
We know that Scutes overlap the growth lines in the bone. Like a brick wall with just two courses or flooring in your home.
This means that as one layer grows, the other must as well, and they will slide against each other. If one grows unevenly, or they can't slide (lack of lubricating moisture), buckling will result. That presents a void, which a body may fill with bone. If it buckles the other way, ie there is not enough calcium to produce enough bone the shell will buckle in.


----------



## Redfoot NERD

Tom said:


> Redfoot NERD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since we know that the internet is THE source of valuable and *true* info! See - http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/unicorn-meat.shtml
> 
> We can't leave this out of the equation Tom! For example.. how the horn of the aging Unicorn deteriorates..
> 
> Unicorns, as we all know, frolic all over the world, pooping rainbows and marshmallows wherever they go. What you don't know is that when unicorns reach the end of their lifespan, they are drawn to County Meath, Ireland. The Sisters at Radiant Farms have dedicated their lives to nursing these elegant creatures through their final days. Taking a cue from the Kobe beef industry, they massage each unicorn's coat with Guinness daily and fatten them on a diet comprised entirely of candy corn.
> 
> As the unicorn ages, its meat becomes fatty and marbled and the living bone in the horn loses density in a process much like osteoporosis. The horn's outer layer of keratin begins to develop a flavor very similar to candied almonds. Blending the crushed unicorn horn into the meat adds delightful, crispy flavor notes in each bite. We are confident you will find a world of bewilderment in every mouthful of scrumptious unicorn meat.
> 
> Your mind has to be racing now I'm sure...............
> 
> NERD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... sarcastic old fart...
Click to expand...


Thank you Tom..



.. to me! It's taken years to establish that recognition!

- "Age and treachery will always dictate youth and enthusiasm" - [bumper sticker]

Touche'

NERD


----------



## Tom

Annieski, In the case of MBD, the limbs swell because the body tries to reinforce the weakened area around the receding bone with fibrous connective tissue that it can build without Ca. You can see this very easily in lizards. Their limbs start to look like Popeye and their lower jaws swell out.


----------



## chadk

I don't know why there is so much focus on pyramiding to be honest. MDB is definately a concern we should all fight, but a little pyramiding shouldn't be treated like the plague... Severe pyramding would be an indicator of some husbandry issues, but can anyone show that aside from aesthetics, pyramiding in itself is a sign of any specific health concern?


----------



## Madkins007

Update clarification-

This shell from a 8" or so female has been dried and was varnished something like 20-25 years ago. The loose scute has just loosened in the last few years- and even with it loosened, I had to carefully work it with a thin knife blade to get it all the way off.

I have not cut into the bone yet- I still really do not want to saw him up. However, I discovered that there are two thin spots in the shell that light comes through- completely apart from where the scute came off- that correspond to the upper, outer (distal) corners of the first pair of costals- but does not line up with any sutures in the bone that I can see. Because the shell is so old and dried out, I am not sure anything I find about the density will be valid. 

When I was wondering about the scutes pulling the bone, I was basically wondering cause and effect- 
- Are the scutes deforming because of dryness or something and the soft, growing bone is changing to accommodate?
- Is the bone changing for so-far unknown reasons and shoving the scutes? If the bone is the first change, then why is misting working? The water droplets are not penetrating the scute layer to hit the bone, so what is happening?

I fully agree that nothing happens in a vacuum- bodies and systems are intimately interconnected. However, having said that, I can easily show that MBD can happen without pyramiding since MBD is a catch-term for several bone diseases. Piaget's Disease, for example, is a form of MBD and does not involve pyramiding. You might be able to say that pyramiding happens with Nutritional Secondary Hyperparathyroidism (NSHP), the most common MDB, but it is not listed amongst the official symptoms that I can find.


----------



## Redfoot NERD

chadk said:


> I don't know why there is so much focus on pyramiding to be honest. MDB is definately a concern we should all fight, but a little pyramiding shouldn't be treated like the plague... Severe pyramding would be an indicator of some husbandry issues, but can anyone show that aside from aesthetics, pyramiding in itself is a sign of any specific health concern?



I'm really glad you brought this up Chad. The Q? IS.. what real damage is done? Guess we'll know 20 years from now? 

The original [ 1998 ] 'raised from hatchling' breeders of mine are still producing. Jackrat's Knobs is one of them.. this Brazilian looked like she does when I acquired her 4 years ago..

Hasn't slowed her down -

Aug. 16 '10 - outside -






She was showing 'nesting' behavior around the 2nd week of Sept. so I placed her in the nest box, but never saw her nesting - I missed her laying - and she dug them up 11/09 while nesting! Three of the 4 were destroyed in the process.

Oct. 08 '10 - inside -






Nov. 09 '10 -






Not the prettiest Chad.. but still regular!

NERD


----------



## Madkins007

Terry and Kristina- Re: Tom's Sulcata growth lines...

No, sorry, I do not see a gap, a space, or a sign of a wider ring. When I examine them as closely as I can, I see thin, evenly spaced rings right up to the other scute. Yes, the outer rings are darker, but I am wondering if you are seeing the darker spaces as a gap.

I cannot clearly see what is happening near the ventrals, but between the costals and between the costals and marginals is nice and tight as far as I can see.



chadk said:


> I don't know why there is so much focus on pyramiding to be honest. MDB is definately a concern we should all fight, but a little pyramiding shouldn't be treated like the plague... Severe pyramding would be an indicator of some husbandry issues, but can anyone show that aside from aesthetics, pyramiding in itself is a sign of any specific health concern?



LOL! Did you read the Shell Problems article yet? I said almost the exact same thing in it!

It would be nice to figure out this piece of the puzzle so we can offer the best cares possible, but if it really is a cosmetic issue, then it is not the end of the Earth.


----------



## Kristina

Annieski said:


> Kristina--I see pyramiding in both of those animals. I believe the "deformed" shell is a good indicator of MBD. I disagree though, about the swollen limbs. Puffiness and/or swollen limbs is an indication of Kidney and Cardiac problems--of which--both can be a direct result of MBD due to calcium leeching.



As I said - GOOGLE picture. I was simply using it as an example of a tortoise with MBD and very little evidence of pyramiding. I did NOT put the labels on the picture.

Where is the pyramiding in the first animal? I see no pyramiding, rather a captive raised tortoise.


----------



## Madkins007

UPDATE PHOTOS





The shell before finding the loose scute





The space the scute was. Notice the raised bone.





The scute- notice that you can see the pad guidelines through the scute.





You can see the growth lines in the bone.

(Golly, Tinypic.com works nicely!)

To recap- this is my 20-25 year-old shell I have kept from my first Red-foot, Japuta. I was going to cut it to see how the scutes were shaped inside when I found one of the scutes was loose so I gently pried it off.

As you can see, the scute IS fingernail thin, and the bone IS deformed.

The bone is so old that it is light, and I am reluctant to cut it to look at the bone but still may. There are a couple thin, translucent areas right on the upper rear corners of the first pair of costal scutes.


----------



## Balboa

Thank you Mark,
I can only imagine how you feel holding that shell.

I think I can see there why it would be difficult to correct pyramiding once started. In order for that vertabral bone (forgive me if the correct name is wrong) to grow, it would have to essentially pop off the scute, which creates a void that the bone is constantly trying to fill.

I'm not great on biology, but wouldn't there need to be a cartilage layer between the scute and bone to even allow the bone to grow this way, which of course reminds me, are we looking at bone or cartilage?


----------



## Redfoot NERD

Granted.. I'm too simple-minded to do all this tech. stuff and besides.. what difference does it make anyway??? - there are a number of us that keep redfoot tortoises, etc. that grow them smooth when they are misted regularly; and they become bumpy when they aren't..... all other things the same. AND it didn't take 10 years and 100's of them to observe this ( in some cases ).. even tho' I've seen 100's over 5 years. [ I can show pic doc. of at least 5 for 5 years on a regular basis ]

Again these observations are too simple for some - and some things we'll never have answers to anyway. Some are even so concerned that they keep changing their names and who belongs to who's family tree...... mine just want a warm place to live and something good to eat and drink!

NERD


----------



## kbaker

This confuses things. After trying to understand Danny's point of view, it does not apply after seeing these pictures. It appears to me that the scutes grow out at the edges and not as a new layer from under the whole scute. The under lying bone is what is pyramiding and the scute is just a layer over top. So what causes the bone to shape like that? And it appears the bones was firm so can it be MBD?

Or is there different types of pyramiding and they just look the same from the outside?


----------



## Balboa

I've been puzzling over that too. Aquatics grow entire new scutes and drop the old, and can still pyramid apparently, which does imply its in the bone, but they are indeed continuously adding an entire new scute, not just the edges.

I'm kind of thinking the scute on tortoises is just constantly getting a little thicker, but each new layer is so thin it doesn't add up quickly.

As Mark was wondering, where's the chicken, where's the egg. The constantly growing bone could fill a gap if present (and there's enough calcium around) and then that deformed bone could deform new scute material trying to slide over it.

Seems like it would lead to overbuilding of the shell, which could overly tax the calcium utilization capabilities of the tortoise, leading to MBD, hence the possible link.

Seems to me to illustrate why shell hydration is so important. Just like your fingernail gets more pliant after doing the dishes, a well hydrated scute will be more able to adjust shape as needed, and the non calcified material between scute and calcified bone will be better able to compensate as well. Let it dry and die, and I imagine it will lead to a more rapid calcification process.


----------



## Annieski

kbaker said:


> This confuses things. After trying to understand Danny's point of view, it does not apply after seeing these pictures. It appears to me that the scutes grow out at the edges and not as a new layer from under the whole scute. The under lying bone is what is pyramiding and the scute is just a layer over top. So what causes the bone to shape like that? And it appears the bones was firm so can it be MBD?
> 
> Or is there different types of pyramiding and they just look the same from the outside?



I don't know if this will help--but let's see. A Tortoises' Housing[shell And skeleton] are supposed to be ridgid enough to protect internal organs. Our skeleton[comprised of 206 bones] does the same, with variations because of how we move[bending,walking,twisting,turning,etc].Our skull[just the cranium] is actually 8 bones that over time[growth maturity] are fused together to from our heads[to protect the brain].The process takes many years. At birth,because there needs to be a way for the "bones" to "grow-with" the rest of the body---there are "FONTANELS". These are membrane-filled spaces that act as a "seam-like" point for the 8 cranial bones to have contact. As "new bone cells" form and "growth" takes place----the "seams" will narrow and become less membranous. These 8 cranial bones are the only bones in our bodies that actually FUSE and this make the multi-boned cranium, an immovable "joint". When all is said and done, those "seams" are referred to as sutures and will always be present. Tortoises' ribs and spine are fused for the "domed-like" shape it must have to protect internal organs. The appearance of their ribs is just different than ours. The lines you see in the picture are the "fontanels/sutures" if you will, because of this "fusion". If you look carefully. the scutes actually, overlap the sutures---because--this hard, keratinized "skin" needs to "waterproof" the "underlying" bone for protection.


----------



## Madkins007

Redfoot NERD said:


> Granted.. I'm too simple-minded to do all this tech. stuff and besides.. what difference does it make anyway??? - there are a number of us that keep redfoot tortoises, etc. that grow them smooth when they are misted regularly; and they become bumpy when they aren't..... all other things the same. AND it didn't take 10 years and 100's of them to observe this ( in some cases ).. even tho' I've seen 100's over 5 years. [ I can show pic doc. of at least 5 for 5 years on a regular basis ]
> 
> Again these observations are too simple for some - and some things we'll never have answers to anyway. Some are even so concerned that they keep changing their names and who belongs to who's family tree...... mine just want a warm place to live and something good to eat and drink!
> 
> NERD



You know, Terry, if the 'why' does not interest you and you don't care about the underlying mechanics and biology, you don't have to read this or respond to it. (But how can you be a real 'nerd' if you are not fascinated by the science?)

I also don't really care about your comments that misting solves everything for you. You live in a state with 2 kinds of Box Turtles and more amphibian and reptile species than most of the US or Canada. You have an enviable natural climate and can have your older guys outside for over 1/2 of the year.

On the other hand, for Tom and others who live in places other than moderate temperate forest zones, misting does not seem to be enough of an answer. Tom is raising his almost like water turtles and is still unhappy with the shell development. Apparently your advice would be to mist them more? 

You can say, as you have before, that your climate has nothing to do with it or is not that special, but that is obviously untrue. Local climate is a HUGE factor in this stuff- that is why so many of the biggest breeders are in Florida, etc.

So, to answer your question- "What difference does it make anyway?"- the better we can understand the mechanisms and physiology of this, the better the rest of us can deal with it and the closer we get to understanding their overall needs.


----------



## ALDABRAMAN

WOW, this is a great thread. As most of you know I am new here. I can say that we soak our aldabra hatchlings daily and they only eat natural weeds, grass, cactus, and a small amount of good quality lettuce. They are kept outside in the pure sunshine. The growth is slow and very smooth. -Great job Tom-


----------



## Tom

Their shells look great, but their noses are still pointy... Haha. Just funnin'. Thank you for the support. Its still a work in progress.


----------



## kbaker

Annieski said:


> kbaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> This confuses things. After trying to understand Danny's point of view, it does not apply after seeing these pictures. It appears to me that the scutes grow out at the edges and not as a new layer from under the whole scute. The under lying bone is what is pyramiding and the scute is just a layer over top. So what causes the bone to shape like that? And it appears the bones was firm so can it be MBD?
> 
> Or is there different types of pyramiding and they just look the same from the outside?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if this will help--but let's see. A Tortoises' Housing[shell And skeleton] are supposed to be ridgid enough to protect internal organs. Our skeleton[comprised of 206 bones] does the same, with variations because of how we move[bending,walking,twisting,turning,etc].Our skull[just the cranium] is actually 8 bones that over time[growth maturity] are fused together to from our heads[to protect the brain].The process takes many years. At birth,because there needs to be a way for the "bones" to "grow-with" the rest of the body---there are "FONTANELS". These are membrane-filled spaces that act as a "seam-like" point for the 8 cranial bones to have contact. As "new bone cells" form and "growth" takes place----the "seams" will narrow and become less membranous. These 8 cranial bones are the only bones in our bodies that actually FUSE and this make the multi-boned cranium, an immovable "joint". When all is said and done, those "seams" are referred to as sutures and will always be present. Tortoises' ribs and spine are fused for the "domed-like" shape it must have to protect internal organs. The appearance of their ribs is just different than ours. The lines you see in the picture are the "fontanels/sutures" if you will, because of this "fusion". If you look carefully. the scutes actually, overlap the sutures---because--this hard, keratinized "skin" needs to "waterproof" the "underlying" bone for protection.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the reply, but let me clearify what I meant...
I probably should have left the quote I was replying to in the post. I was replying to 'Posted by Madkins007 - 11-12-2010 01:23 AM.
Annieski, that was a great comparison of a tortoise shell and skull. I never thought to compare them, but at the same time understood that a shell was structured and grew the same way. I did not want to miss quote Danny too badly, but if I remember correctly, he takes the stand that external moister does not affects internal bone; and that the scutes thicken with layers which is what pyramiding is if the layers are too thick with gaps.
From what I saw in the pictures, the scutes do not have layers across the whole scute and the pyramiding is structured at the bone level and not the scute level.
I pull a few conclusions from this whether fact or theory:
1) What comes first (chicken or the egg)? Does a hatchling start growing first or start laying down a harder bone structure? To me, if the bone was hard, the shell would not bow under each scute.
2) Is the bone bowing or is it spongy at that time (MBD)? Bone should be dense and harden. If its spongy, is it expanding to what we see in the pictures?
3) If the bone is bowing, something has to put pressure on it to bow. I never believed over eating was that big of a factor, but what if the hatchling over eats and is bloated/fat. It pushes outward like one of those gel balls in a net.
4) Is there more to it with the scutes? What if the outer edge of the scutes is new/live material and it is stronger than the middle of the scute? That would be the 'net' part. Until the bone hardens, this happens.
5) What if the moister (spay "til they drip) has the effect of strengthening the middle scute long enough to have the bone harden?
6) What if it works like this...the hatchling has a soft shell at first and it needs to harden. The scute keeps the bone somewhat in check and the bone affects how the scute grows. If the bone hardens, it does not bow or if MBD, the bone does not thicken. Then the bone does not push out at the scutes. The scute continues to grow, but the scute's new layers are laid 'side by side' at the edges. Wonderful! If there is any push from the bone, the new scute growth can't grow 'side by side' and the prevoius growth is pushed away from the new scute growth.

From what I found on human nails, one of the BIG tips for strong healthy nails is to keep them moisterized. Another is a healthy intake of protein and vitamins. These all seem like no brainers, but with the chicken or egg way, one thing might be stepping on the other. The shell has to harden before feeding a lot and at the same time, the hatchling has to eat a lot of good things to get the shell to harden. I think this is why some tortoises pyramid at different rates, too.

I think the next step would be to cut into that shell to see if is bowed or thickened.

I am sure I missed some of my thoughts here and what I did say might have gaps, but it should be enough for everyone to think about.


----------



## Annieski

kbaker said:


> Annieski said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kbaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> This confuses things. After trying to understand Danny's point of view, it does not apply after seeing these pictures. It appears to me that the scutes grow out at the edges and not as a new layer from under the whole scute. The under lying bone is what is pyramiding and the scute is just a layer over top. So what causes the bone to shape like that? And it appears the bones was firm so can it be MBD?
> 
> Or is there different types of pyramiding and they just look the same from the outside?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if this will help--but let's see. A Tortoises' Housing[shell And skeleton] are supposed to be ridgid enough to protect internal organs. Our skeleton[comprised of 206 bones] does the same, with variations because of how we move[bending,walking,twisting,turning,etc].Our skull[just the cranium] is actually 8 bones that over time[growth maturity] are fused together to from our heads[to protect the brain].The process takes many years. At birth,because there needs to be a way for the "bones" to "grow-with" the rest of the body---there are "FONTANELS". These are membrane-filled spaces that act as a "seam-like" point for the 8 cranial bones to have contact. As "new bone cells" form and "growth" takes place----the "seams" will narrow and become less membranous. These 8 cranial bones are the only bones in our bodies that actually FUSE and this make the multi-boned cranium, an immovable "joint". When all is said and done, those "seams" are referred to as sutures and will always be present. Tortoises' ribs and spine are fused for the "domed-like" shape it must have to protect internal organs. The appearance of their ribs is just different than ours. The lines you see in the picture are the "fontanels/sutures" if you will, because of this "fusion". If you look carefully. the scutes actually, overlap the sutures---because--this hard, keratinized "skin" needs to "waterproof" the "underlying" bone for protection.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply, but let me clearify what I meant...
> I probably should have left the quote I was replying to in the post. I was replying to 'Posted by Madkins007 - 11-12-2010 01:23 AM.
> Annieski, that was a great comparison of a tortoise shell and skull. I never thought to compare them, but at the same time understood that a shell was structured and grew the same way. I did not want to miss quote Danny too badly, but if I remember correctly, he takes the stand that external moister does not affects internal bone; and that the scutes thicken with layers which is what pyramiding is if the layers are too thick with gaps.
> From what I saw in the pictures, the scutes do not have layers across the whole scute and the pyramiding is structured at the bone level and not the scute level.
> I pull a few conclusions from this whether fact or theory:
> 1) What comes first (chicken or the egg)? Does a hatchling start growing first or start laying down a harder bone structure? To me, if the bone was hard, the shell would not bow under each scute.
> 2) Is the bone bowing or is it spongy at that time (MBD)? Bone should be dense and harden. If its spongy, is it expanding to what we see in the pictures?
> 3) If the bone is bowing, something has to put pressure on it to bow. I never believed over eating was that big of a factor, but what if the hatchling over eats and is bloated/fat. It pushes outward like one of those gel balls in a net.
> 4) Is there more to it with the scutes? What if the outer edge of the scutes is new/live material and it is stronger than the middle of the scute? That would be the 'net' part. Until the bone hardens, this happens.
> 5) What if the moister (spay "til they drip) has the effect of strengthening the middle scute long enough to have the bone harden?
> 6) What if it works like this...the hatchling has a soft shell at first and it needs to harden. The scute keeps the bone somewhat in check and the bone affects how the scute grows. If the bone hardens, it does not bow or if MBD, the bone does not thicken. Then the bone does not push out at the scutes. The scute continues to grow, but the scute's new layers are laid 'side by side' at the edges. Wonderful! If there is any push from the bone, the new scute growth can't grow 'side by side' and the prevoius growth is pushed away from the new scute growth.
> 
> From what I found on human nails, one of the BIG tips for strong healthy nails is to keep them moisterized. Another is a healthy intake of protein and vitamins. These all seem like no brainers, but with the chicken or egg way, one thing might be stepping on the other. The shell has to harden before feeding a lot and at the same time, the hatchling has to eat a lot of good things to get the shell to harden. I think this is why some tortoises pyramid at different rates, too.
> 
> I think the next step would be to cut into that shell to see if is bowed or thickened.
> 
> I am sure I missed some of my thoughts here and what I did say might have gaps, but it should be enough for everyone to think about.
Click to expand...

I still think is't important to look at scutes["skin"] and shell["fused bones"] as 2 separate entities or organs/systems. I think the growth , of each, happens simultaneously but at different speeds to accomadate the type of enviornment the creature is exposed to. Our fingernails grow out from a "nailbed"[ where it is attached to the cuticle]--once the nail passes from that point,and "hits the air" so to speak, those "keratinized" cells become hardened to be able to protect the living tissue BELOW. The best analogy I can refer to is if you injured your fingernail and it had to come off/or fell off--that finger "tissue" is now exposed and you must wait[sometimes 6/8 mos.] for the nail to process down to the end. My understanding is, that the scutes have a CENTERED "nailbed" that grows out in concentrical rings. So the original "square-ish" portion of the scutes is where there is a direct blood supply for growth to coinside with the developing bone below. When a baby is born, the finger/to nails are soft and pliable for several months--even though the purpose of the nail is the same. Tortoises don't have that luxury of time. I also believe there needs to be a more cyclical time period to allow for periods of "rest" so that all development can happen[maturation of digestive,excretory,reproductive,etc.] at a steady pace. Maybe pyramiding happens because the bones cannot keep up with the scutes? JMO


----------



## Balboa

Annie,
Are the bones truly fused? Most of the information I've been able to find indicates they don't truly fuse to allow some limited flexibility. Of course these were likely oversimplified, outdated, and refering to Chelonians as a whole, maybe torts are different? I just want to clarify my understanding.

I'm curious about this "central nailbed" and how it would work. That implies a complete new scute essentially sliding out from the center, somehow expanding in diameter as it goes? Or does the "new scute" start there and grow on its leading edge until it finally gets to air.

Either of those scenarios DOES imply a need for some kind of "season" to trigger the time to stop adding and start again, which is think what you were saying. If the timing is wrong there could be a huge lag where the bone continues to try to grow and there's no new scute available to cover it.

Or does the nailbed start sending out a new scute automatically every so often and it wouldn't matter, and more than one scute layer could be growing at a time?

In any of those cases it shows a need for continuous hydration to prevent early hardening.

For my limited knowledge of how bones grow, the outermost layer is always softish material, basically cartilage waiting to be calcified, is this the case?

All of this is starting to make me think those olive oil users were on to something. There are no pores to worry about, this is fingernail,horn,scale type material, or am I wrong in thinking that? I had thought that there were pores to worry about at the joints of the Scutes possibly, but now I'm doubting that. So what's wrong with keeping a shell healthy with natural products? I put nasty chemicals on my dogs and cats to protect their skin from fleas.


----------



## kbaker

Annieski said:


> kbaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Annieski said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kbaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> This confuses things. After trying to understand Danny's point of view, it does not apply after seeing these pictures. It appears to me that the scutes grow out at the edges and not as a new layer from under the whole scute. The under lying bone is what is pyramiding and the scute is just a layer over top. So what causes the bone to shape like that? And it appears the bones was firm so can it be MBD?
> 
> Or is there different types of pyramiding and they just look the same from the outside?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if this will help--but let's see. A Tortoises' Housing[shell And skeleton] are supposed to be ridgid enough to protect internal organs. Our skeleton[comprised of 206 bones] does the same, with variations because of how we move[bending,walking,twisting,turning,etc].Our skull[just the cranium] is actually 8 bones that over time[growth maturity] are fused together to from our heads[to protect the brain].The process takes many years. At birth,because there needs to be a way for the "bones" to "grow-with" the rest of the body---there are "FONTANELS". These are membrane-filled spaces that act as a "seam-like" point for the 8 cranial bones to have contact. As "new bone cells" form and "growth" takes place----the "seams" will narrow and become less membranous. These 8 cranial bones are the only bones in our bodies that actually FUSE and this make the multi-boned cranium, an immovable "joint". When all is said and done, those "seams" are referred to as sutures and will always be present. Tortoises' ribs and spine are fused for the "domed-like" shape it must have to protect internal organs. The appearance of their ribs is just different than ours. The lines you see in the picture are the "fontanels/sutures" if you will, because of this "fusion". If you look carefully. the scutes actually, overlap the sutures---because--this hard, keratinized "skin" needs to "waterproof" the "underlying" bone for protection.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply, but let me clearify what I meant...
> I probably should have left the quote I was replying to in the post. I was replying to 'Posted by Madkins007 - 11-12-2010 01:23 AM.
> Annieski, that was a great comparison of a tortoise shell and skull. I never thought to compare them, but at the same time understood that a shell was structured and grew the same way. I did not want to miss quote Danny too badly, but if I remember correctly, he takes the stand that external moister does not affects internal bone; and that the scutes thicken with layers which is what pyramiding is if the layers are too thick with gaps.
> From what I saw in the pictures, the scutes do not have layers across the whole scute and the pyramiding is structured at the bone level and not the scute level.
> I pull a few conclusions from this whether fact or theory:
> 1) What comes first (chicken or the egg)? Does a hatchling start growing first or start laying down a harder bone structure? To me, if the bone was hard, the shell would not bow under each scute.
> 2) Is the bone bowing or is it spongy at that time (MBD)? Bone should be dense and harden. If its spongy, is it expanding to what we see in the pictures?
> 3) If the bone is bowing, something has to put pressure on it to bow. I never believed over eating was that big of a factor, but what if the hatchling over eats and is bloated/fat. It pushes outward like one of those gel balls in a net.
> 4) Is there more to it with the scutes? What if the outer edge of the scutes is new/live material and it is stronger than the middle of the scute? That would be the 'net' part. Until the bone hardens, this happens.
> 5) What if the moister (spay "til they drip) has the effect of strengthening the middle scute long enough to have the bone harden?
> 6) What if it works like this...the hatchling has a soft shell at first and it needs to harden. The scute keeps the bone somewhat in check and the bone affects how the scute grows. If the bone hardens, it does not bow or if MBD, the bone does not thicken. Then the bone does not push out at the scutes. The scute continues to grow, but the scute's new layers are laid 'side by side' at the edges. Wonderful! If there is any push from the bone, the new scute growth can't grow 'side by side' and the prevoius growth is pushed away from the new scute growth.
> 
> From what I found on human nails, one of the BIG tips for strong healthy nails is to keep them moisterized. Another is a healthy intake of protein and vitamins. These all seem like no brainers, but with the chicken or egg way, one thing might be stepping on the other. The shell has to harden before feeding a lot and at the same time, the hatchling has to eat a lot of good things to get the shell to harden. I think this is why some tortoises pyramid at different rates, too.
> 
> I think the next step would be to cut into that shell to see if is bowed or thickened.
> 
> I am sure I missed some of my thoughts here and what I did say might have gaps, but it should be enough for everyone to think about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I still think is't important to look at scutes["skin"] and shell["fused bones"] as 2 separate entities or organs/systems. I think the growth , of each, happens simultaneously but at different speeds to accomadate the type of enviornment the creature is exposed to. Our fingernails grow out from a "nailbed"[ where it is attached to the cuticle]--once the nail passes from that point,and "hits the air" so to speak, those "keratinized" cells become hardened to be able to protect the living tissue BELOW. The best analogy I can refer to is if you injured your fingernail and it had to come off/or fell off--that finger "tissue" is now exposed and you must wait[sometimes 6/8 mos.] for the nail to process down to the end. My understanding is, that the scutes have a CENTERED "nailbed" that grows out in concentrical rings. So the original "square-ish" portion of the scutes is where there is a direct blood supply for growth to coinside with the developing bone below. When a baby is born, the finger/to nails are soft and pliable for several months--even though the purpose of the nail is the same. Tortoises don't have that luxury of time. I also believe there needs to be a more cyclical time period to allow for periods of "rest" so that all development can happen[maturation of digestive,excretory,reproductive,etc.] at a steady pace. Maybe pyramiding happens because the bones cannot keep up with the scutes? JMO
Click to expand...


I don't think you can separate the two. They work with each other whether directly or indirectly.

Keep in mind two facts...
1) From the pictures, the permanent structure damage of pyramiding is in the bone of the shell.
2) External hydration reduces pyramiding by a large percentage.

What's with the seasons thing? The tortoise may adapt to stop and start growth because of it environment, but it means nothing with pyramiding from what I can tell. Whether the tortoise is forced through seasons or not, it won't prevent or cause pyramiding.


----------



## Annieski

Balboa said:


> Annie,
> Are the bones truly fused? Most of the information I've been able to find indicates they don't truly fuse to allow some limited flexibility. Of course these were likely oversimplified, outdated, and refering to Chelonians as a whole, maybe torts are different? I just want to clarify my understanding.
> 
> I'm curious about this "central nailbed" and how it would work. That implies a complete new scute essentially sliding out from the center, somehow expanding in diameter as it goes? Or does the "new scute" start there and grow on its leading edge until it finally gets to air.
> 
> Either of those scenarios DOES imply a need for some kind of "season" to trigger the time to stop adding and start again, which is think what you were saying. If the timing is wrong there could be a huge lag where the bone continues to try to grow and there's no new scute available to cover it.
> 
> Or does the nailbed start sending out a new scute automatically every so often and it wouldn't matter, and more than one scute layer could be growing at a time?
> 
> In any of those cases it shows a need for continuous hydration to prevent early hardening.
> 
> For my limited knowledge of how bones grow, the outermost layer is always softish material, basically cartilage waiting to be calcified, is this the case?
> 
> All of this is starting to make me think those olive oil users were on to something. There are no pores to worry about, this is fingernail,horn,scale type material, or am I wrong in thinking that? I had thought that there were pores to worry about at the joints of the Scutes possibly, but now I'm doubting that. So what's wrong with keeping a shell healthy with natural products? I put nasty chemicals on my dogs and cats to protect their skin from fleas.



Human bones start out being LESS" mineralized " at birth[it would be very "hard" to pass through a birth canal---for baby and mom]. Bones have [for BASIC explanation] a shaft and 2 ends. At these 2 ends are also cartilagenous membranes called epiphyseal plates. This area is where growth takes place by depositing new cells. It isnt hard yet. As the cells are deposited---the bone grows in LENGTH. At the same time---SKIN is "growing" to PROTECT and cover the growing bone. Bone is mineralized for strength---but it is porous to allow cellular activity to occur. If you were to cut a human bone in 1/2, lengthwise, you would find hundreds and 100's of "holes". This is necessary for all the blood capillaries to have a place to do their thing. It's only when you "stop" growing /or "reach your adult height" that the ends of the bone will no longer have the epiphyseal plates----it will become hardened as the rest of the bone and a very "faint" suture-type LINE will still be there.In a tortoise--the actual anatomy is formed different[even though the area those bones are, are refered to as in human anatomy. ie;the front limb of a tortoise has a radius like in our forearm---but in a tortoise the humerous and scapula[shoulderblade] are FUSED to form the top portion of the plastern---our 12 pairs of ribs make up the FUSED portion of the carapase refered to as the costals[human anatomy terminology costal=rib]. I don't know if this is making any sense and I'm starting to ramble. I think that it is always better to read and incorporate info to a plan but I am always leery of extremes. I believe it is extreme to feed 365 days a year, a wild species[even if they are captive-born] because we all know that would not be the enviornment in the wild. It becomes debatable because there is NO FORMULA to replicate Mother Nature---and these are our "PETS". JMO


----------



## spengleri

Tom, hope this hasn't been covered. You mentioned in a post a few pages back:
"Humidity will PREVENT pyramiding in a hatchling, NOT STOP pyramiding once it starts."

I have seen drastic changes in shell growth of redfoot, sulcata and leopard shells, as well as box turtle shells with improved diet, smaller portions and increased humidity. Pyramiding basically stopped and new growth was smooth. I do rescue and rehab and over the years have seen this numerous times. Many animals were kept in inappropriate conditions and shells were in terrible condition until I was able to change conditions. It was not always diet, as I was given complete histories on many of the animals, with the culprit often being environments that were apparently far too dry.

A quick google search shows what appears to be cases where initial pyramiding was halted and new growth was smooth. Of course we don't know the history of these animals (through the google search), but I have seen great results myself during 20 years of tortoise rehab. 

I do agree with increased humidity for young tortoises, but I also know that once pyramiding has begun, it can be rectified for all new growth. A few google examples are here:
http://chelonianconservation.org/speciesimgs/phayrei.jpg
http://image42.webshots.com/42/2/54/77/2881254770090794962HVoBVx_fs.jpg
http://www.sulcata.dk/custom/Skildpadder 1679a.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...bw_01.jpg/800px-Geochelone_pardalis_bw_01.jpg
http://www.repticon.com/Images/Pics_for_Pages/redfoot_ranch_redfoot.jpg
http://www.tigerhomes.org/animal/images/g-tortoise/aldabra-a.jpg
http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thu.../2/istockphoto_371134-red-footed-tortoise.jpg
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/resources/james_harding/Geochelone_radiata.jpg/medium.jpg
http://www.perthzoo.wa.gov.au/upload/Animals_and_Plants/radiated_tortoise.jpg
http://media.lonelyplanet.com/lpimg/27684/27684-3/preview.jpg

Great thread and interesting topic.


----------



## Tom

spengleri said:


> Tom, hope this hasn't been covered. You mentioned in a post a few pages back:
> "Humidity will PREVENT pyramiding in a hatchling, NOT STOP pyramiding once it starts."
> 
> I have seen drastic changes in shell growth of redfoot, sulcata and leopard shells, as well as box turtle shells with improved diet, smaller portions and increased humidity. Pyramiding basically stopped and new growth was smooth. I do rescue and rehab and over the years have seen this numerous times. Many animals were kept in inappropriate conditions and shells were in terrible condition until I was able to change conditions. It was not always diet, as I was given complete histories on many of the animals, with the culprit often being environments that were apparently far too dry.
> 
> A quick google search shows what appears to be cases where initial pyramiding was halted and new growth was smooth. Of course we don't know the history of these animals (through the google search), but I have seen great results myself during 20 years of tortoise rehab.
> 
> I do agree with increased humidity for young tortoises, but I also know that once pyramiding has begun, it can be rectified for all new growth. A few google examples are here:
> http://chelonianconservation.org/speciesimgs/phayrei.jpg
> http://image42.webshots.com/42/2/54/77/2881254770090794962HVoBVx_fs.jpg
> http://www.sulcata.dk/custom/Skildpadder 1679a.jpg
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...bw_01.jpg/800px-Geochelone_pardalis_bw_01.jpg
> http://www.repticon.com/Images/Pics_for_Pages/redfoot_ranch_redfoot.jpg
> http://www.tigerhomes.org/animal/images/g-tortoise/aldabra-a.jpg
> http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thu.../2/istockphoto_371134-red-footed-tortoise.jpg
> http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/resources/james_harding/Geochelone_radiata.jpg/medium.jpg
> http://www.perthzoo.wa.gov.au/upload/Animals_and_Plants/radiated_tortoise.jpg
> http://media.lonelyplanet.com/lpimg/27684/27684-3/preview.jpg
> 
> Great thread and interesting topic.



I now know that you are correct. It took two years of "swamp" living for me to see that Daisy's new growth was coming in smooth. Prior to that, I really had a heck of a time. She was a pretty bad case and it really took a lot of effort and time, but since then I've seen lots of other examples where things turned around much sooner and easier.

I'm learning as I go. No one will ever know everything, but as we all share experiences, like you just did, the big picture will become more and more clear.

Thanks for sharing what you know.


----------



## ElfDa

CGKeith said:


> I have only had one Sulcata, as a foster for less than a year. So my experience and time frame are limited.
> It was kept very warm and dry, but misted daily (direct on shell). Fed a mixture of items from my garden which is basically the Mediterranean seed mix along with Bermuda grass, grape leaves, hibiscus leaves and flowers and mulberry leaves.
> Here are before and after pics to show growth.



I am in love with you, your husbandry practices, and your foster tortoise.
[bows before you]


----------



## CGKeith

ElfDa said:


> CGKeith said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have only had one Sulcata, as a foster for less than a year. So my experience and time frame are limited.
> It was kept very warm and dry, but misted daily (direct on shell). Fed a mixture of items from my garden which is basically the Mediterranean seed mix along with Bermuda grass, grape leaves, hibiscus leaves and flowers and mulberry leaves.
> Here are before and after pics to show growth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am in love with you, your husbandry practices, and your foster tortoise.
> [bows before you]
Click to expand...


Well, thanks for the complement but I think my results with that one sulcata was more dumb luck than anything else.


----------



## onarock

I have been reading this thread for about a month now and I have my own theory. I'm going to put it to a test and see. After reading all this some things have clicked. There is a reason Tom is not happy with the results of his semi aquatical raising of torts and theres a reason Nerd suggests mist might solve the problem. I'll get back to you all after my babcocki egg laying machine starts again this winter. Hmmmmmm


----------



## Tom

onarock said:


> I have been reading this thread for about a month now and I have my own theory. I'm going to put it to a test and see. After reading all this some things have clicked. There is a reason Tom is not happy with the results of his semi aquatical raising of torts and theres a reason Nerd suggests mist might solve the problem. I'll get back to you all after my babcocki egg laying machine starts again this winter. Hmmmmmm



That's an awful long time to wait. How about a little hint to get us started?


----------



## Marty333

How are your torts looking Tom? I would like to see some pics.


----------



## Tom

Marty333 said:


> How are your torts looking Tom? I would like to see some pics.



I keep meaning to get more shots. I had them out in Daisy's 15x30' pen with all the weeds yesterday, but I din't have my camera. Weighed the yesterday and they are all over 200 grams now. Pics coming soon.


----------



## Yvonne G

This is all brand new stuff, Ben. The whole point being there is no rule yet. We're flying by the seat of our pants. But you're right to question it. For example, desert tortoises (Gopherus agassizii) aren't prone to pyramiding, while Texas tortoises (Gopherus berlandieri) ARE. In the first case, the humidity thing we're talking about here for Sulcatas really doesn't apply. I've raised CB desert tortoise hatchlings on perfectly dry pellet substrate and they grew up smooth and pretty, while the Texas babies I just took in, while only two months old, already show signs or pyramiding. The person who gave them to me kept them on paper towells and I've been keeping them on moist cypress mulch.


----------



## Tom

Hey Ben. So far I've only done this with Sulcatas and South African Leopards. CA Deserts are just starting and some more species are in the works. Neal is doing his Babcock leopard and several other people are doing various other species. In time we will have all the answers. Leopards are one of the most sensitive to respiratory problems and so far all of them have had ZERO problems with high humidity. One ket is to ALWAYS keep them above 80. Day and night 24/7. The combination of cold and wet is where the problems usually start. I invite everyone to try it out and report back to the forum what their results are. In my own experience, and in the Austrian study, 80% or higher seems to be the magic number.


----------



## Tom

Ben3233 said:


> Hi Tom, I might get a Marginated or Russian tortoise next week. I would like to contribute and try this technique myself. All my tortoise (well hermann and redfoot) do have a humid hides and water always available and I already started to spray all my tortoise (even if both of them are already adult or small adult lol). However, I'll give it a try on the next species I'll get to see if it work and give you update about it!



That would be great. This technique is all about hatchlings. I don't think there is much benefit to using the wet routine on juveniles or adults.

I'd love to hear how this goes for hatchlings of any species from anyone out there.


----------



## Tom

Update. They continue to grow smoothly. Weights are between 230 and 255 grams. Sorry for the bad lighting. Its just been too cold and rainy to go out.


























The End.


----------



## DeanS

VERY, VERY NICE!


----------



## Redfoot NERD

Those aren't real Tom!

You have to be feeding.. or warming.. or lighting.. or exercising or hiding or something DIFFERENTLY - this can't be just the result of maintaining high humidity levels on their carapace!

WHAT ARE YOU DOING DIFFERENTLY??? COME ON.. TELL YOUR SECRET.. [ one more time until _they_ hear it ]

Terry K


----------



## ChiKat

Redfoot NERD said:


> Those aren't real Tom!
> 
> You have to be feeding.. or warming.. or lighting.. or exercising or hiding or something DIFFERENTLY - this can't be just the result of maintaining high humidity levels on their carapace!
> 
> WHAT ARE YOU DOING DIFFERENTLY??? COME ON.. TELL YOUR SECRET.. [ one more time until _they_ hear it ]
> 
> Terry K



It isn't _just_ "the result of maintaining high humidity levels on their carapace"  I'm pretty sure they are also fed an excellent, varied diet, given lots of exercise, and have access to natural sunlight.


They look great Tom!!! I can't believe how big they're getting! It looks like those tiny little legs shouldn't be able to hold up since big, sturdy shells!


----------



## Redfoot NERD

ChiKat said:


> Redfoot NERD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Those aren't real Tom!
> 
> You have to be feeding.. or warming.. or lighting.. or exercising or hiding or something DIFFERENTLY - this can't be just the result of maintaining high humidity levels on their carapace!
> 
> WHAT ARE YOU DOING DIFFERENTLY??? COME ON.. TELL YOUR SECRET.. [ one more time until _they_ hear it ]
> 
> Terry K
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't _just_ "the result of maintaining high humidity levels on their carapace"  I'm pretty sure they are also fed an excellent, varied diet, given lots of exercise, and have access to natural sunlight.
> 
> 
> They look great Tom!!! I can't believe how big they're getting! It looks like those tiny little legs shouldn't be able to hold up since big, sturdy shells!
Click to expand...


Tom told me on the phone yesterday that the ONLY thing that he is doing differently with these hatchlings ( the *ONLY* thing that he is doing differently from any other tortoise in the past 20 years ).. is the humidity directly on their carapace! Instead of the carapace growing UP/pyramided.. it's growing out and solid.. no honey-comb carapace bone-growth. 

Try it you'll like it. 

Terry K


----------



## ChiKat

Ohh I see what you're saying...what he's doing differently compared to what he did with his other tortoises.
I apologize, it's been a long day


----------



## Tom

ChiKat said:


> Ohh I see what you're saying...what he's doing differently compared to what he did with his other tortoises.
> I apologize, it's been a long day



Try to keep up Katie.

Thanks for the compliment.


----------



## Badgemash

Going through the last few pages gave me a few ideas. This is more brainstorming than fully fledged action plans, so bear with me. 

1) When I look at pictures and videos of wild leopards, the shells aren't perfectly smooth, I wouldn't say they're "pyramided" exactly, but there is definitely some sort of lumpy effect. What if a perfectly smooth shell is wrong for some species? It might be good for some (the aldabs at the zoo with their smooth domes spring to mind), but has anyone ever seen a leopard anywhere with that kind of shell?

2) Should we be looking at wild examples as the ideal? I've seen BLM mustangs brought off the range at roughly 1.5-2 years old, and with a high quality "captivity" diet finish out as 16h warmblood look-a-likes. You would never guess how they started out when comparing them to wild adult horses. I know torts aren't horses, but it's something to think about, the wild appearance isn't always ideal. 

3) Applying concept #2 to torts, I'm not seeing how allowing them to eat a lot (assuming the food is high quality, nutritionally balanced, species appropriate, and properly supplemented) is detrimental. Yes it might make them grow faster, but if we look at the equine example, that's not a bad thing. If everything else physiologically is going well, is faster growth bad? 

4) (perhaps less controversial) At what point do we consider the non-pyramidal growth pattern set, and begin to reduce the humidity levels? I ask this from a practical and selfish standpoint, high humidity and permanent outdoor living don't really go together in AZ.

Just some ideas to play with and kick around. I'm new at this and want to learn, so please feel free to tell me (nicely) why I'm wrong 

-Devon


----------



## Redfoot NERD

Badgemash said:


> Going through the last few pages gave me a few ideas. This is more brainstorming than fully fledged action plans, so bear with me.
> 
> 1) When I look at pictures and videos of wild leopards, the shells aren't perfectly smooth, I wouldn't say they're "pyramided" exactly, but there is definitely some sort of lumpy effect. What if a perfectly smooth shell is wrong for some species? It might be good for some (the aldabs at the zoo with their smooth domes spring to mind), but has anyone ever seen a leopard anywhere with that kind of shell?
> 
> 2) Should we be looking at wild examples as the ideal? I've seen BLM mustangs brought off the range at roughly 1.5-2 years old, and with a high quality "captivity" diet finish out as 16h warmblood look-a-likes. You would never guess how they started out when comparing them to wild adult horses. I know torts aren't horses, but it's something to think about, the wild appearance isn't always ideal.
> 
> 3) Applying concept #2 to torts, I'm not seeing how allowing them to eat a lot (assuming the food is high quality, nutritionally balanced, species appropriate, and properly supplemented) is detrimental. Yes it might make them grow faster, but if we look at the equine example, that's not a bad thing. If everything else physiologically is going well, is faster growth bad?
> 
> 4) (perhaps less controversial) At what point do we consider the non-pyramidal growth pattern set, and begin to reduce the humidity levels? I ask this from a practical and selfish standpoint, high humidity and permanent outdoor living don't really go together in AZ.
> 
> Just some ideas to play with and kick around. I'm new at this and want to learn, so please feel free to tell me (nicely) why I'm wrong
> 
> -Devon



mammal vs reptile

warm-blood vs cold-blood

"all" tortoise species are different so have different needs.. some are herbivorous and some are omnivorous.. and look different.

This 'look' is perfectly normal for the Sri Lanken Star tortoise - G. elegans -






Or the smallest tort on the planet - 'padloper' -






... the list goes on...

Terry K


----------



## Kosace

There does seem to be a correlation of more water/humidity--->smoother shell formation. That's probably why through evolution the water turtles all have smooth shells. Although there are exceptions such as snappers, etc. I feel as though painted turtles are watered down red foot tortoises. That's just my point of view.


----------



## Tom

Badgemash said:


> Going through the last few pages gave me a few ideas. This is more brainstorming than fully fledged action plans, so bear with me.
> 
> 1) When I look at pictures and videos of wild leopards, the shells aren't perfectly smooth, I wouldn't say they're "pyramided" exactly, but there is definitely some sort of lumpy effect. What if a perfectly smooth shell is wrong for some species? It might be good for some (the aldabs at the zoo with their smooth domes spring to mind), but has anyone ever seen a leopard anywhere with that kind of shell?
> 
> 2) Should we be looking at wild examples as the ideal? I've seen BLM mustangs brought off the range at roughly 1.5-2 years old, and with a high quality "captivity" diet finish out as 16h warmblood look-a-likes. You would never guess how they started out when comparing them to wild adult horses. I know torts aren't horses, but it's something to think about, the wild appearance isn't always ideal.
> 
> 3) Applying concept #2 to torts, I'm not seeing how allowing them to eat a lot (assuming the food is high quality, nutritionally balanced, species appropriate, and properly supplemented) is detrimental. Yes it might make them grow faster, but if we look at the equine example, that's not a bad thing. If everything else physiologically is going well, is faster growth bad?
> 
> 4) (perhaps less controversial) At what point do we consider the non-pyramidal growth pattern set, and begin to reduce the humidity levels? I ask this from a practical and selfish standpoint, high humidity and permanent outdoor living don't really go together in AZ.
> 
> Just some ideas to play with and kick around. I'm new at this and want to learn, so please feel free to tell me (nicely) why I'm wrong
> 
> -Devon



I'll answer these "nicely" for you:

1. I've heard people claim to have seen pyramided wild caught imports. I don't think so. Here's why: With my own eyes, in Africa, I did not see one single pyramided leopard in the wild. I did see some in captivity, but even that was the rare exception. I saw 100's of them and they were all so smooth that I didn't even recognize them as leopards. When I got home, I went on the internet to try to identify what they were and that's when I realized that wild ones, or ones raised in "wild" conditions in Africa do not pyramid. Now if I raised a pyramided CA desert tortoise and then gave it to a wholesaler and he exported it to Africa, the importer in Africa would call it a wild caught import and Africans would think that CDTs pyramid in the wild.

2. The short, easy answer, given my thoughts on #1, is yes, we should look at the wild ones as an example of what we should strive for.

3. I say that faster growth is not bad, IF IF IF it is done right. Conventional wisdom, and "The Establishment" mostly say that faster growth is bad. Even my good friend Terry K. generally thinks that fast growth is bad. I used to think so too, but my latest experiments are showing me otherwise.

4. For sulcatas the number I've heard is 6-8". I have not heard a number for leopards since they are ALL pyramided in captivity, I don't think anyone knows. Maybe, in a few years, WE will discover this answer with the 36 leopards that ours came out of.


----------



## Redfoot NERD

Tom.. ".....fast growth is bad. I used to think so too, but my latest experiments are showing me otherwise."

You are taking the entire "BALANCE" to the max.. too! 

Notice the growth-rate in some of the pics of my redfoots.. sometimes several/wide growth 'rings'.. but they aren't "stacked" because I/you keep them 'lubricated'( a Richard Fife term )/wet so they grow out instead of up! Oooooops I let the secret out.

Terry K


----------



## Badgemash

I don't disagree that the pyramiding is a result of poor husbandry and isn't present in the wild specimens (at least as far as I know). But from what I can see in the pictures of wild leopards, even they have little mounds on them. They're vastly smoother than what we see in captivity (so far), but they're not perfectly smooth. So are we aiming for a wild appearance, or a perfectly smooth appearance? 

I asked about the growth thing for Octavia (she can't type). I allow them access to fresh, varied food for most of the day and they eat when and as much as they want (which is often and a lot). All of them, but especially Octavia have been growing like crazy. But her shell is still smooth and firm, and as far as I can tell (and the vet) she's perfectly fine and healthy. How does allowing constant foraging cause harm? I'm not asking to be confrontational, I just don't know the answers.

-Devon


----------



## Tom

Badgemash said:


> I don't disagree that the pyramiding is a result of poor husbandry and isn't present in the wild specimens (at least as far as I know). But from what I can see in the pictures of wild leopards, even they have little mounds on them. They're vastly smoother than what we see in captivity (so far), but they're not perfectly smooth. So are we aiming for a wild appearance, or a perfectly smooth appearance?
> 
> I asked about the growth thing for Octavia (she can't type). I allow them access to fresh, varied food for most of the day and they eat when and as much as they want (which is often and a lot). All of them, but especially Octavia have been growing like crazy. But her shell is still smooth and firm, and as far as I can tell (and the vet) she's perfectly fine and healthy. How does allowing constant foraging cause harm? I'm not asking to be confrontational, I just don't know the answers.
> 
> -Devon



All of the wild ones I saw were completely smooth. That amounts to a whopping six individuals. However, I saw dozens that were living outside in large, natural areas that were more or less "wild" and ALL of them were totally smooth too. They were so smooth, and of differing sizes and ages, that I didn't even know what species it was at first. All of the wild caught captives that produced our Gpp babies are totally smooth too. Here's a couple of pics. They were brought in as large adults 21 years ago, so who knows how old they are, but they are very weathered.









The ones that I saw over there were smoother than this and much darker.

I don't see anything wrong with letting them graze "naturally". I think that's the best way to feed them, personally.


----------



## Tom

UPDATE: I forgot to get weights but they are around 250 grams. I'll add weights later. Enough yammering. Here's todays pics...


















The End...


----------



## Edna

They look awesome, Tom. The 3rd pic looks like a future RV in the making. Such a sweet face!!


----------



## Torty Mom

Tom, when you were in RV's burrow, did you take any temperature readings or humidity readings?


----------



## kbaker

Tom said:


> UPDATE: I forgot to get weights but they are around 250 grams. I'll add weights later. Enough yammering. Here's todays pics...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The End...




Tom,
We love you and your tortoises, but these "in your face" pictures have got to stop! 
Can you size them a little smaller? or Are we playing 'Find the Tick? 

And the tortoises are looking great!


----------



## Tom

Mary Anne, No we didn't get any temps, but it was much cooler than the surface which was around 85. Teri was working on that, but minimal progress so far.

KBaker, I don't know why the pics do that. I thought it was only on my screen that way. Those pics are cropped way down and tinypic.com is supposed to auto size them when you upload. I don't know how to make them smaller.


----------



## Laura

tiny pic is not so tiny... it did that to my pics i posted the other da y too.. big!


----------



## Redfoot NERD

Do they no longer post with the 'click for full size view' under the pic anymore? My monitor is 22" and it doesn't show that anymore.. hasn't for at least maybe a month now? And when I clic on View and ZOOM OUT you can barely read the "Preview Post" below - and the text still runs off the screen..... is it mine only guys?
*
MODS or someone who knows.. please respond?*

Is this one big? [ it's bigger than my screen ] It's 2048 wide per Photo Shop - 'started' on rabbit pellets *"dry"* [ relative humid 'ambient' ].. maybe 6 months old.. ( you can see it's an old pic.. taken with first camera ) and the carapace is already starting to 'bunch-up' -








TEK


See Tom.. I had them back then before the redfoot hatchlings.....

Can't believe I did this - *NEVER NEVER DO THIS EVER, EVER.. EVERYBODY*.. STUPID ME - didn't do anything right then [ very little anyway ] -






The leopards were raised from 4".. WC or hatched in S. FL., not sure which. The redfoot was one of the hatchlings raised up before the "MISTING" regime!


----------



## Edna

Interesting how the leopard on the left looks quilted, while the one on the right has pointy pyramids. 
Anyway folks, I propose a moratorium on CLOACA SHOTS until the giant pic thing is resolved. Please.


----------



## terryo

Terry, that RF still looks good, even though you said you didn't mist her.


----------



## Balboa

I know nothin bout Tinypic, I use photobucket myself, but....

I don't rely on the online editors anyways. Its not too tough to resize em before I upload. I think I got it from kristine's thread on the subject, a nice little free program called:

IRFANVIEW
http://irfanview.com/

I just rightclick the pic I want to resize on my computer, and select "open with irfanview"
Under the "Image" menu is a resize option.
I usually go with either 640 x 480 or 800 x 600, hit "ok"
and then "save as" with a new name. Upload it to photobucket.
Hope this helps 

If not no matter to me, I like big pics LOL


----------



## Yvonne G

Tom's pictures ARE too big. Half the time they don't open up all the way on my computer. I sometimes have to use the bar across the bottom of the screen to move the picture to the side so I can view it all.

Like Balboa, I re-size my pictures through Irfanview before I save them to my computer. Then when I put them in Photobucket they are already the size I want them to be.


----------



## Redfoot NERD

emysemys said:


> Tom's pictures ARE too big. Half the time they don't open up all the way on my computer. I sometimes have to use the bar across the bottom of the screen to move the picture to the side so I can view it all.
> 
> Like Balboa, I re-size my pictures through Irfanview before I save them to my computer. Then when I put them in Photobucket they are already the size I want them to be.



Yvonne any pic I posted "before" was resized to 2222 x whatever.. and it was auto-sized to fit the text format by the then existing software.. with the 'click to view fullsize' below. Some of the "current" software parameters are not "user-friendly"/compatible.

Here's an 800 X pic -






With this smaller "shrunk" pic it is not possible to view in "hi-res" to see the details the thread is about! That's the issue.. we have no choice because that software was done away with!

Tom's pics were not too big *before* because they were re-sized by the then-existing software........... but we had the option to view "fullsize". Now we don't.

TEK


----------



## Tom

Ahh. Now I see. When we switched servers the auto resize function was left behind.

No problem I just found an easy solution.

TINYPIC users: After you "Choose File" but before you "UPLOAD NOW!", there is a little tab that says "Resize". Mine is set to "Default". Just click on that and select a more appropriate size. I'll be doing that from now on.

Sorry about the GIANT pics everyone. I didn't know how to fix it.


----------



## ALDABRAMAN

Can this forum just have a browse option and out resize, then post? Is it financial? Just curious, I think some struggle and do not post. I tried and just gave up.


----------



## Redfoot NERD

If enough ask we can get an "auto-resizer" so we can accomplish BOTH scenarios.. and won't lose the "hi-res" look to option!

Of course Tom there are a number of ways to "re-size" pics. And before.. none of us had to re-size so there were more that posted -- like 'dabman' said!

I'll start:

HEY JOSH.. WE WANT AN AUTO-RESIZER BACK.. PLEASE!?!?!?

 Terry K


----------



## ALDABRAMAN

YES, Me too. Auto resize would be great, I think more would participate in sharing pictures. I vote "YES".


----------



## Badgemash

ALDABRAMAN said:


> Can this forum just have a browse option and out resize, then post? Is it financial? Just curious, I think some struggle and do not post. I tried and just gave up.



That's a shame, I would love to see a larger version of your profile pic.


----------



## Josh

Does that help?


----------



## ChiKat

YES! They're resized (on my comp at least!)

Tom- your Sulcatas are looking amazing! I love watching them grow.


----------



## Redfoot NERD

From this *May '05* -






To this in almost *4 years* -






TEK

WAY TO GO JOSH -



-


----------



## Badgemash

All of the wild ones I saw were completely smooth. That amounts to a whopping six individuals. However, I saw dozens that were living outside in large, natural areas that were more or less "wild" and ALL of them were totally smooth too. They were so smooth, and of differing sizes and ages, that I didn't even know what species it was at first. All of the wild caught captives that produced our Gpp babies are totally smooth too. Here's a couple of pics. They were brought in as large adults 21 years ago, so who knows how old they are, but they are very weathered.


[/quote]

You're right, they are much smoother than the pics I've seen. So those are the actual parents? So big!

-Devon


----------



## mckenzieg

My baby is definitely pyramiding...I threw my humidifier away because after too many years, it became too difficult to clean. I am looking into getting another one--and wonder if cold or warm air is better? The first was warm and it corroded really badly, but that's what you get when you mix heat and water! 

I take Charli out every morning and give him a nice warm bath. He usually goes to the bathroom and has nice, solid poops (sorry) most of the time. Much bigger than 6 months ago. I had been so afraid of him not eating last time i was on the forum that I've been feeding him 4-5 pellets of mazuri daily and then greens (kale, chard, mixed greens, etc.). While he's in the bath, I take his garage out and spray the whole area. I was wetting it with a glass of water, really getting it wet before, but a reptile-owning friend told me that was a bad idea for bacterial growth. I spray him and his area a few times a day, but he's certainly pyramiding. Is that too much mazuri? I only feed him once a day...and he loved the mazuri--sometimes neglecting the salad greens (though he does eat them...but they dry out).

I can't cover his enclosure because the UV lamp sits on top of a screen that's on top of the enclosure. Not the best set up, but there's nothing to hang the lamp from in my room. I'll be moving in July and hope to build him a good tortoise shelf, but for now, this is what I'm left with. I have a blue moon light on him in the same fixture as the uv lamp (Sorry--been a while--it's the UV that emulates sunlight--is that uva or uvb? I have the box at home, sorry) so I can't cover it at night, either, tho I guess I could always move a different lamp and then cover the area after spraying to retain SOME humidity. 

I haven't been great about calcium, either, but I do put it in his mazuri when I think of it. As well as a multi-vitamin. I will do that more if you think that helps him from pyramiding. 

He seems to be growing exponentially now. He seems happy and I take him out and let him run around sometimes, though he's still a bit scared of us, but still lets us pet his head a little. 

Thanks for any advice or help. 





Tom said:


> Not saying right or wrong on the over feeding thing. You two might be right. Here are a couple of points to ponder: Point #1: When I got my first sulcata in the early 90's I fed it light. It grew slow and it pyramided. I figured that I must have fed it too much, so I fed the next one lighter. It grew slower and still pyramided. This went on for a while and when I finally got Bert and Scooter in '98, I really went overboard with the "feed them light and grow them slow" stuff, out of frustration over repeated failure. (Kind of the same way I went overboard with Daisy and the moisture, humidity and hydration thing, but look where that took us all.) The result of that is tiny 12 year old 43 pound adult males. So understand why I'm leery of "under-feeding" or "growing them slower". Once bitten, twice shy.
> 
> Point #2: This super hydration and humidity thing has produced healthy accelerated growth in my other species as well. Remember my tiny little hatchling black throated monitors lizards from back in January? I just fed them normally, like I do all my monitor lizards, and they hit 4' in six months. This is un-heard of! Kristina knows what I'm talking about. They were in my warm humid reptile room, with a thick humid substrate, a humid hide and regular soaks. They simply thrived! They outgrew their 100 gallon tank in three months. Now at 11 months old they are already breeding.
> 
> These sulcatas are the first torts that I have ever raised from hatchlings with the wet routine. I don't feed them any more than any other tort, but they are growing really fast, just like my monitors did. They only get Mazuri once or twice a week in small amounts mixed in with their other greens. And they really aren't very "greedy" anyway. My leopards are more into the food than they are lately. As they've grown all of the past "rough spots" have sort of faded away and now we are seeing some new "rough spots" around the growth ring areas. I'm guessing that these will fade too. I suppose I'm just being paranoid. I see that evil pyramiding monster around every blind corner and hiding under every rock. He has haunted me for so long, I'm having trouble coming to terms with the fact that I actually killed him.
> 
> Time will answer many of these questions for us. I knew this would be a long road and much would be learned and discussed along the way


----------



## LaNino

isn't there any update photo?


----------



## Yvonne G

LaNino said:


> isn't there any update photo?



My apologies to the original poster for this little foray into off topic:

Hi LaNino:

Welcome to the forum!! Please take a moment to go to the "introduction" part of the forum and tell us a bit about yourself. May we know your name and where you are?


----------



## firework

Hi, guys,

I asked this question in another thread, no one answered me yet, I hope you people will see this this time:

What specises are most prone to pyramiding? Most of the pyramiding pictures I saw are the larger specises such as sulcatas, leopards.... What about the smaller ones?

I have a Greek, I had it since it's 4 months old, it's one year old now. I recently noticed the growth rings are "stacked" higher than the edge. I suspect it's developing pyramiding, but I also think it might be just the normal way it grows because I have a vauge memory that someone said Greek doesn't pyramid as easily as others.


----------



## Yvonne G

Pyramiding can occur in any type of tortoise, but it is usually seen in leopards and sulcatas. It takes some pretty bad care to see it in the Mediterranean or gopherus species, but it can and does happen there too. When we refer to "pyramiding" it refers to the center scutes, not to the growth area. The new growth pushes up the center of the scutes so the tortoise looks bumpy. Can we see a picture of what you are talking about?


----------



## firework

Thanks for your reply. I will take a picture today. 



emysemys said:


> Pyramiding can occur in any type of tortoise, but it is usually seen in leopards and sulcatas. It takes some pretty bad care to see it in the Mediterranean or gopherus species, but it can and does happen there too. When we refer to "pyramiding" it refers to the center scutes, not to the growth area. The new growth pushes up the center of the scutes so the tortoise looks bumpy. Can we see a picture of what you are talking about?


----------



## firework

Here are some picture I took today. Soryy for the poor quality. I am trying to show how the "rings" are stacked and the grooves are deeper than I think it should.




















emysemys said:


> Pyramiding can occur in any type of tortoise, but it is usually seen in leopards and sulcatas. It takes some pretty bad care to see it in the Mediterranean or gopherus species, but it can and does happen there too. When we refer to "pyramiding" it refers to the center scutes, not to the growth area. The new growth pushes up the center of the scutes so the tortoise looks bumpy. Can we see a picture of what you are talking about?


----------



## CGKeith

Yes, that is slight start to it.
No, they don't have to grow that way.
Here are a couple different examples. So, yes greeks can pyramid also.

One was kept dry. This picture was taken when it was about a year old.





These have been kept humid and shells sprayed.


----------



## firework

Thanks a lot for your reply.

So you think mine IS developing pyramiding? I definitely will moist his habitat more often with more water and of course the soaking. I feel so sorry for him.

By the way, your one-year-old (is he also a Greek?) seems much bigger on the picture than mine, do you think mine is underfed? His hind legs (can be seen on the 2nd picture) look thin too. 



CGKeith said:


> Yes, that is slight start to it.
> No, they don't have to grow that way.
> Here are a couple different examples. So, yes greeks can pyramid also.
> 
> One was kept dry. This picture was taken when it was about a year old.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These have been kept humid and shells sprayed.


----------



## CGKeith

Well, I'm not sure yours is underfed. Mine may be overfed  , they eat a lot and I do tend to have some large ones.
Yes, that one is an Ibera Greek. Probably bigger than most for it's age, but it is also from a very large female.
If you can get the future growth of yours to grow smoother you won't notice the little bit of pyramiding that it has now much at all.


----------



## Tom

Two notes for Firework:
1. I have noticed that they tend to grow bigger and faster on "the wet routine" than they do normally. I don't feed mine any more than I ever have, but it seems that humidity and hydration "agree" with their systems and make them grow faster. Some people think this is bad. I do not.

2. Do NOT let your tort get cool, even at night, when you start making it more humid and damp in there. No one has reported any problems yet with any species, but I fear that a chill in damp conditions might be enough to make any tort get sick. We are in uncharted territory here, as this has not been done for very long yet. I, personally, have never done it with a greek tortoise and I don't know what they can or can't tolerate. For my four types of torts, I keep my reptile room 77-80 at night. That's the lowest it ever gets, at any time, all year. During the summer the room sometimes gets into the high 80's or low 90's.


----------



## Yourlocalpoet

Tom said:


> UPDATE: I forgot to get weights but they are around 250 grams. I'll add weights later. Enough yammering. Here's todays pics...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The End...



Unfortunately I haven't been able to frequent the forum as much as I used to and I've been dying to see how these little fellas are getting on! Tom, they look absolutely stunning.
Now where are those little leopards...


----------



## CGKeith

Tom said:


> Two notes for Firework:
> 1. I have noticed that they tend to grow bigger and faster on "the wet routine" than they do normally. I don't feed mine any more than I ever have, but it seems that humidity and hydration "agree" with their systems and make them grow faster. Some people think this is bad. I do not.
> 
> 2. Do NOT let your tort get cool, even at night, when you start making it more humid and damp in there. No one has reported any problems yet with any species, but I fear that a chill in damp conditions might be enough to make any tort get sick. We are in uncharted territory here, as this has not been done for very long yet. I, personally, have never done it with a greek tortoise and I don't know what they can or can't tolerate. For my four types of torts, I keep my reptile room 77-80 at night. That's the lowest it ever gets, at any time, all year. During the summer the room sometimes gets into the high 80's or low 90's.



Tom, I think you hit on something here. 

I do provide night time heat as well for my little ones as well as damp cypress mulch. They (greeks) all tend to bury themselves at night right under the heat lamp (black light bulb). So they are staying warm and moist pretty much all the time.

Which should keep their bodies in a constant growing state, as opposed to most reptiles cooling down at night or through a Winter cool down period that would slow down their systems to just maintain, not necessarily grow.

This could help explain the larger growth size along with the wet routine keeping the growth smooth.


----------



## Sky2Mina

I read through all the post. This must be one of the most interesting threads ever (and I'm not even interested in keeping sulcatas). I'll follow this thread and I'm looking forward to see more pictures of the little torts. They look so pretty (perfect).


----------



## Tom

CGKeith said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Two notes for Firework:
> 1. I have noticed that they tend to grow bigger and faster on "the wet routine" than they do normally. I don't feed mine any more than I ever have, but it seems that humidity and hydration "agree" with their systems and make them grow faster. Some people think this is bad. I do not.
> 
> 2. Do NOT let your tort get cool, even at night, when you start making it more humid and damp in there. No one has reported any problems yet with any species, but I fear that a chill in damp conditions might be enough to make any tort get sick. We are in uncharted territory here, as this has not been done for very long yet. I, personally, have never done it with a greek tortoise and I don't know what they can or can't tolerate. For my four types of torts, I keep my reptile room 77-80 at night. That's the lowest it ever gets, at any time, all year. During the summer the room sometimes gets into the high 80's or low 90's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom, I think you hit on something here.
> 
> I do provide night time heat as well for my little ones as well as damp cypress mulch. They (greeks) all tend to bury themselves at night right under the heat lamp (black light bulb). So they are staying warm and moist pretty much all the time.
> 
> Which should keep their bodies in a constant growing state, as opposed to most reptiles cooling down at night or through a Winter cool down period that would slow down their systems to just maintain, not necessarily grow.
> 
> This could help explain the larger growth size along with the wet routine keeping the growth smooth.
Click to expand...


Agreed, except for one detail. I've always kept night heat and little to no seasonal temp variations on all of my torts in the past. They all pyramided (much too dry) and none of them ever grew at anywhere near this rate on the same amount of food and same temps. The ONE factor that IS different is wet vs. dry. At least for me.


----------



## gummybearpoop

I do raise my tortoises similar to Tom, except I keep my tortoises cool (high: 70s and low:60s, sometimes lower) AND dry during the winter. Warm and moist all other times. No heat lamps and UVB bulbs, but I live in Arizona so no need for them. Plenty of UVB and heat here!

I typed my reasons for the winter temp drops and deleted them. I will share my reasons/results in 10 years.

Norman


----------



## Tom

Yeah Norman. I'm figuring 10 years will be about the right time frame for me too.


----------



## Jharris1385

WOW! Just read this whole thread. Great work.

Some advice - why not just contact a biology professor at your local university who studies tortoises. This should not be too hard, and should be a quick email to one of them in the department to see if anyone specializes in this. With all the members in various places surely somewhere, someone would have the answers. For example, my professor friend is a sea turtle guy but not a tortoise. Then you would not have to do these long trial runs with questioning and have tortoises subject to less than optimal health.


----------



## CGKeith

Jharris1385 said:


> WOW! Just read this whole thread. Great work.
> 
> Some advice - why not just contact a biology professor at your local university who studies tortoises. This should not be too hard, and should be a quick email to one of them in the department to see if anyone specializes in this. With all the members in various places surely somewhere, someone would have the answers. For example, my professor friend is a sea turtle guy but not a tortoise. Then you would not have to do these long trial runs with questioning and have tortoises subject to less than optimal health.



Well, most of us have relied on prior research and published information and ended up with pyramided tortoises.

I don't see any of the tortoises in this discussion as being in "less than optimal health" at all.


----------



## Jharris1385

Don't get me wrong...I don't mean they are suffering at all. Just why not be 100% the first time instead of having trial runs? (And not Tom's or anyone in particular, but there are a few on this forum that I have even noticed have pyramiding shells)

It only makes sense to mimic their natural habitat.

And once again I did not mean anyone here is doing anything wrong at all. I personally just like being over the top when I start a hobby or task.


----------



## Yvonne G

You see, that's just the problem, John. There aren't any fresh, new studies on tortoises and pyramiding for us to fall back on. It's up to you and I, the hobbyist, to come up with the new ideas.

Dr. Kristin Berry studies desert tortoises, but her studies don't start with hatchlings, and that's were the pyramiding starts.

I haven't heard of any studies in Africa with leopards and sulcatas. And there's no money in tortoises for science to take a look at them.


----------



## Jharris1385

Thank you for that information emysemys. I wondered why we are not reaching out to others. I will ask friend if he knows of any or where to direct me. He is from Jordan and deals with sea turtles of the Red Sea.


I have not had time to read....viewing this from my phone. But have you tried google scholar? I just did a quick search on there and found pyramiding in the title of a couple but did not check their internal value.

I can not promise anything at the moment but I have contacted a few who work with tortoises currently and from hatchlings concerning pyramiding.


----------



## Tom

Jharris1385 said:


> WOW! Just read this whole thread. Great work.
> 
> Some advice - why not just contact a biology professor at your local university who studies tortoises. This should not be too hard, and should be a quick email to one of them in the department to see if anyone specializes in this. With all the members in various places surely somewhere, someone would have the answers. For example, my professor friend is a sea turtle guy but not a tortoise. Then you would not have to do these long trial runs with questioning and have tortoises subject to less than optimal health.



Doh! [smacks forehead] Why didn't I just think of that? We could just call our local biology professor and get all the answers. No need for any debate or experimentation anymore. We'll just follow our professor's model and every tortoise will grow a smooth shell from now on!!!

JHarris, Based on your comments, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and ASSUME that you didn't mean this to be insulting or offensive. Do you really think we are all a bunch of uneducated imbeciles who are all flying by the seat of our pants and just making stuff up as we go? I'm hoping your answer is no. There are many on this forum who, like me, have been keeping tortoises, and other animals, for decades. I have been studying EVERYTHING I can find on pyramiding for the last 20 years. I read anything I can find and talk to anyone I can talk to. I go to reptile conferences and shows. I listen to lectures given by "experts". I thoroughly read any "scientific" study that I can find. I also have been trying (and failing) for many years to grow one smooth. For the last two decades, I have read every book and followed all the expert advice from the top tortoise people in the world. These are the experts that a biology professor would contact for help if he started a course of study on tortoises. All of it failed repeatedly and dismally. WE, the people right here on tortoise forum, as well as a handful of others out there, are the ones who will and ARE solving this problem. I'm comfortable speaking for all of us here on the forum when I say that its a HUGE compliment that you noticed few tortoises on here that are even pyramided. THAT is exactly why I have spent thousands of hours, thousands of dollars and a lot of blood, sweat and tears to try to make things better for our captive tortoises and figure out exactly what the problem is. Do you really think that a college professor knows more than someone who has been raising, breeding and keeping a given species for decades? Who do you think writes the books that the professors read?

I would never advocate or do anything that I did not think would lead to "optimal" health for my tortoises. My whole life, I have been striving for optimal conditions. I'm not there yet, but I'm much closer now than I was 10 or 20 years ago and still moving rapidly in the right direction. All these changes and ideas are aimed at providing optimal conditions. That is exactly what we are trying to do here.

You said, "It only makes sense to mimic their natural habitat". Actually, this is not very sensible, practical or even doable. Their habitat encompasses hundreds or thousands of square miles filled with literally millions of "micro-habitats" that are constantly changing with the seasons, the weather and millions of other factors. Also remember that for every tortoise that hatches out in the wild and makes it to adulthood and reproduction, hundreds or thousands died along the way. Mimicking mother nature is NOT the way to go. Instead, we have found what works, and what doesn't work, over many decades of unfortunate trial and error. Each new technique that I try and report on here, is based on all of my decades and prior experience, and each time it is intended to improve upon the status quo. I never do anything "just to see what will happen". Each move is very carefully thought out and each attempt is very carefully watched for any sort of problem. Also, please do not forget that I did not originate these ideas. What I am doing is based on following the example of others and developing their techniques to suit my particular situation. Those others include some of the top tortoise professionals in the world, and some of them have been doing these things, with these species, for over a decade.

Having said all of that, if you are able to come up with a professor or scientist that has any info on pyramiding prevention I would LOVE to see anything new. Maybe your fresh new perspective will fill in some of the "blanks" for us all. My goal (and its a lofty one) is to END PYRAMIDING, one way or another. I don't care who, how or what it takes to do it, I just want it done. I'm not a glory hound. I don't care who gets the credit for solving this mystery. I just want it done and I'm VERY motivated to do it. So far the results have astounded even me!

Welcome aboard.


----------



## spikethebest

Okay I go first on identifying a Biology Professor that specializes in Herpetology....

My alumni.. California State University of Northridge, Biology Department (www.csun.edu/biology), Professor - Dr. Robert Espinoza; [email protected]

Very nice guy. Knows a LOT about turtles, tortoises, and most other reptiles.


----------



## Tom

spikethebest said:


> Okay I go first on identifying a Biology Professor that specializes in Herpetology....
> 
> My alumni.. California State University of Northridge, Biology Department (www.csun.edu/biology), Professor - Dr. Robert Espinoza; [email protected]
> 
> Very nice guy. Knows a LOT about turtles, tortoises, and most other reptiles.



Okay. Can you call him up and ask him the secret formula for raising smooth torts?


...... hurry up. I'm holding my breath....


----------



## ALDABRAMAN

Smooth growth = sunshine + humidity + exercise + good diet.


----------



## Jharris1385

First and foremost it was not to insult anyone and prior to posting my simple message, maybe I should have used the search feature more. However it seems that the most opinionated and abundantly discussed topic is that of pyramiding shells. And yes this pyramiding of the shell is a sign of non optimal conditions.

You started off stating you were going to give me the benefit of the doubt, but then continued to rant your case. Like I said my message was simple it was not pointing fingers and it was singling out you for doing anything wrong. When in fact it actually stated "Great work."

My direction of contacting a professor in the field of Biology is actually great advice. I suggested one "who studies tortoises" as well, and did not suggest just any ol' run of the mill teacher who knows something about life on Earth. Why this good advice, is studies take years to complete and there is that slight possibility that maybe with the vast array of members that a professor somewhere has a concurrent study going on either personally or for a graduate research project, or knows of one. In addition if a said professor was one who studies tortoises he actually would be in fact the one that is called upon for advice from the majority of the tortoise knowledge seeking crew, outside of someone who lives with them daily and has a superior knowledge of cellular growth within a carapace. Now given the idea that there may be some doctoral holding individual or group that works daily with turtles and is easily available to contact for questioning; versus someone who has knowledge of a tortoise and likes them, and as a result breeds them and lives with many...I would highly assume there would be no issue with pyramiding as I am sure this knowledge would be shared. Since there is a current issue, that is why I suggested this. What I am trying to say is that there is a difference between someone who is master hobbyist and is a jack of the trade compared to someone who jack of the hobby and master of the trade/study (cellular growth knowledge). This all goes back to the idea that maybe there is a study going on or one we don't know of that has not been published and if all or just a few of us reached out to someone we would all be one step closer.

I never once doubted that anyone on this forum has not exhausted nearly all means to end this issue of captive raised turtles. However like I have said it was a suggestion and all humans can benefit from being open minded and learning from another set of eyes or a different perspective of thinking.

I do have to shed light on the fact that you stated that you "have been trying (and failing) for many years to grow one smooth." You said you are striving for optimal conditions but in reality, that we would not like to face or admit, is you have captive tortoises that are not at 100%. This may be an internal issue I have as I do not like to start a hobby or activity until I am certain I have is down to the T. It is obviously 110% sensible to mimic the natural habitat. So you are trying to tell me what you are doing is not trying to give it what it would have in the wild? Then why are you having issues with pyramiding if it not sensible? I don't state the obvious, which is we can't duplicate the habitat, we all know, and we should all embed the common sense that we will never be able to provide the "square miles" or the "micro-habitats" that are found in the wild. Did those "hundreds or thousands" die to outside predatory/climatic..etc conditions with a pyramided shell? In fact mimicking mother nature is the ideal situation, because in a mimicked habitat with mimicked mother nature the life of the living tortoise will always exceed that of a captive rasied...one that is subject to the conditions provided by the caretaker and is more dependent on someone that has spent nearly zero living adaptational ancestral time in their geographical location.

You mention that some "top tortoise professionals""have been doing these things, with these species, for over a decade" but you still don't have the answers? How many more have to be subject to your "trial and error""techniques?"

"Having said all of that" as well, my goal is to provide anyone on here an outside perspective and a source to potential knowledge of this issue. My ideal situation is one that mimics the natural conditions, one without pyramiding or visual cues of non optimal health, and provides them the life that they should have. Let's be honest, it is a pet, and we (not I yet) have taken this specie(s) out of its natural world for our gain of pleasure and enjoyment.

...ps. I could have honestly never replied or replied to your post in another manner but I just like you did stood up for my opinions/facts and this is all in effort to create a better life. I could have easily been pushed away and any potential knowledge or ideas that I could bring (if any) could have been lost. Once again I did not mean to insult in my posts, and I hope to be of some assistance to this forum as I learn this all myself.


----------



## onarock

Jharris, to be honest, I was going to send you a PM earlier when I started reading the recent posts to this thread to warn you that you are edging yourself close to the deep end and I hope you know how to swim. I dont need to tell you what you already know and that is youve stumbled upon this forums "holy ground". But, after reading this, I'm sure youll do just fine... good on ya and well put. 

Tom is a good guy and a passionate tortoise keeper that is h*ll bent set on helping to find a way to put an end to pyramiding. However, I have to say that I was a bit supprised, but,.... not totally, that he chose to attack you the way he did. Lucky you... one of Toms admirers didnt get to you first.

Welcome to the Forum



Jharris1385 said:


> First and foremost it was not to insult anyone and prior to posting my simple message, maybe I should have used the search feature more. However it seems that the most opinionated and abundantly discussed topic is that of pyramiding shells. And yes this pyramiding of the shell is a sign of non optimal conditions.
> 
> You started off stating you were going to give me the benefit of the doubt, but then continued to rant your case. Like I said my message was simple it was not pointing fingers and it was singling out you for doing anything wrong. When in fact it actually stated "Great work."
> 
> My direction of contacting a professor in the field of Biology is actually great advice. I suggested one "who studies tortoises" as well, and did not suggest just any ol' run of the mill teacher who knows something about life on Earth. Why this good advice, is studies take years to complete and there is that slight possibility that maybe with the vast array of members that a professor somewhere has a concurrent study going on either personally or for a graduate research project, or knows of one. In addition if a said professor was one who studies tortoises he actually would be in fact the one that is called upon for advice from the majority of the tortoise knowledge seeking crew, outside of someone who lives with them daily and has a superior knowledge of cellular growth within a carapace. Now given the idea that there may be some doctoral holding individual or group that works daily with turtles and is easily available to contact for questioning; versus someone who has knowledge of a tortoise and likes them, and as a result breeds them and lives with many...I would highly assume there would be no issue with pyramiding as I am sure this knowledge would be shared. Since there is a current issue, that is why I suggested this. What I am trying to say is that there is a difference between someone who is master hobbyist and is a jack of the trade compared to someone who jack of the hobby and master of the trade/study (cellular growth knowledge). This all goes back to the idea that maybe there is a study going on or one we don't know of that has not been published and if all or just a few of us reached out to someone we would all be one step closer.
> 
> I never once doubted that anyone on this forum has not exhausted nearly all means to end this issue of captive raised turtles. However like I have said it was a suggestion and all humans can benefit from being open minded and learning from another set of eyes or a different perspective of thinking.
> 
> I do have to shed light on the fact that you stated that you "have been trying (and failing) for many years to grow one smooth." You said you are striving for optimal conditions but in reality, that we would not like to face or admit, is you have captive tortoises that are not at 100%. This may be an internal issue I have as I do not like to start a hobby or activity until I am certain I have is down to the T. It is obviously 110% sensible to mimic the natural habitat. So you are trying to tell me what you are doing is not trying to give it what it would have in the wild? Then why are you having issues with pyramiding if it not sensible? I don't state the obvious, which is we can't duplicate the habitat, we all know, and we should all embed the common sense that we will never be able to provide the "square miles" or the "micro-habitats" that are found in the wild. Did those "hundreds or thousands" die to outside predatory/climatic..etc conditions with a pyramided shell? In fact mimicking mother nature is the ideal situation, because in a mimicked habitat with mimicked mother nature the life of the living tortoise will always exceed that of a captive rasied...one that is subject to the conditions provided by the caretaker and is more dependent on someone that has spent nearly zero living adaptational ancestral time in their geographical location.
> 
> You mention that some "top tortoise professionals""have been doing these things, with these species, for over a decade" but you still don't have the answers? How many more have to be subject to your "trial and error""techniques?"
> 
> "Having said all of that" as well, my goal is to provide anyone on here an outside perspective and a source to potential knowledge of this issue. My ideal situation is one that mimics the natural conditions, one without pyramiding or visual cues of non optimal health, and provides them the life that they should have. Let's be honest, it is a pet, and we (not I yet) have taken this specie(s) out of its natural world for our gain of pleasure and enjoyment.
> 
> ...ps. I could have honestly never replied or replied to your post in another manner but I just like you did stood up for my opinions/facts and this is all in effort to create a better life. I could have easily been pushed away and any potential knowledge or ideas that I could bring (if any) could have been lost. Once again I did not mean to insult in my posts, and I hope to be of some assistance to this forum as I learn this all myself.


----------



## Robert

John:

Are you a college student? Maybe searching out and contacting university professors would be a good project for you while doing your pre-tort purchase research. Let us know what you find.


----------



## Jharris1385

Onarock - Thank you. Just trying to help. We are all here for the same goal. 

CtTortoise - Or you could. It seriously takes 10-20 minutes. If anything I could start a thread with a proposed message to send to a school and we as a community could copy and paste it and send it. I am surely not ever going to be able to send it to every college or university or organization that is why I suggest more than just I.


----------



## Robert

Jharris1385 said:


> CtTortoise - Or you could. It seriously takes 10-20 minutes. If anything I could start a thread with a proposed message to send to a school and we as a community could copy and paste it and send it. I am surely not ever going to be able to send it to every college or university or organization that is why I suggest more than just I.



I'm not interested in contacting university professors. I thought that you were which is why you suggested it. Sorry if I misunderstood you. 

If you do, and if you are able to make some headway, please share what you have learned.


----------



## CGKeith

Wow, what a bunch of foolish double talk.

Since you don't have a PHD in torts you are not worthy to deviate from the standard of keeping your tortoise dry and pyramided.

Even if your results are indeed better you have failed because someone at a University didn't write a paper on it first.

I guess that you won't be owning a tortoise in your lifetime, or have any children either for that matter.

Both ends of the spectrum. Very little info on torts, so we have to use trial and error. Tons and tons of info on raising kids, we still have to use trial and error.


----------



## ALDABRAMAN

*I wish someone had wrote a book when I started!*


----------



## CGKeith

But I would still choose an experienced keepers advice over the PHD's 

Same with whose advice on raising kids, ask the Grandma with 6 kids and 17 grandchildren or the PHD at the college who just studies kids.

I go with real experience.


----------



## Neal

JHarris, your post (#384) is one of the most interesting and insightful I've read in awhile. I agree with you that we should try to mimic their natural environment...problem is no one knows exactly how a hatchling tortoise lives or the conditions they're exposed to on a daily basis. 

-You mention that some "top tortoise professionals""have been doing these things, with these species, for over a decade" but you still don't have the answers? How many more have to be subject to your "trial and error""techniques?"-

This is a good point, I don't think pyramiding is as big a mystery as it's made out to be. It's really been solved, but lacks the scientific explanations as to 'why' certain environmental (and other) factors create pyramided scutes. I guess until then, it can be called a mystery. 

Tom knows what he's doing, I wouldn't consider what he's doing much of an experiment or "trial and error" in the sense that there is a chance for failure. He's simply applying what he has learned, how he wants to, and is getting good results and sharing that with others who may not have as much experience so they can get similar results. He's part of a big group of people that want nothing more than to see smooth shelled tortoises everywhere.

Anyway, good post thanks for coming aboard and not running away after the responses you got.


----------



## Fernando

aaaaaannnd break! everyone take a breather... =D


----------



## gummybearpoop

I am sure JHarris meant no harm by his suggestion.

I will say that this thread seems like many other "pyramiding" threads on this forum and others. Seems like I am reading the same arguments and ideas over and over.


----------



## onarock

Jharris, cant say i didnt warn ya... and here they come..



CGKeith said:


> Wow, what a bunch of foolish double talk.
> 
> Since you don't have a PHD in torts you are not worthy to deviate from the standard of keeping your tortoise dry and pyramided.
> 
> Even if your results are indeed better you have failed because someone at a University didn't write a paper on it first.
> 
> I guess that you won't be owning a tortoise in your lifetime, or have any children either for that matter.
> 
> Both ends of the spectrum. Very little info on torts, so we have to use trial and error. Tons and tons of info on raising kids, we still have to use trial and error.


----------



## ALDABRAMAN

CGKeith said:


> But I would still choose an experienced keepers advice over the PHD's
> 
> Same with whose advice on raising kids, ask the Grandma with 6 kids and 17 grandchildren or the PHD at the college who just studies kids.
> 
> I go with real experience.


I so agree, but consider both.


----------



## onarock

Norm... your right and you are
PS thanks for the contact, but unfortunately the one I would trade is from him.



gummybearpoop said:


> I am sure JHarris meant no harm by his suggestion.
> 
> I will say that this thread seems like many other "pyramiding" threads on this forum and others. Seems like I am reading the same arguments and ideas over and over.


----------



## Az tortoise compound

ALDABRAMAN said:


> Smooth growth = sunshine + *HYDRATION* + exercise + good diet.



'Nuff said


----------



## Tom

JHarris, I DID give you the benefit of the doubt in regards to your intentions not being to insult anyone. My ranting was trying to give you some insight into the state of things in the tortoise world from my perspective.

I do openly admit that I have nearly 20 years of failure and that's how I know we've got it "right" now. Since applying the techniques expressed here in this thread I have not had one single failure to date. THAT is the biggest point to be made here. 48 hatchlings, of three different species and a subspecies later, and all is now working perfectly. My 20 years of failure was largely due to trying to mimic the natural conditions where these guys come from. The African Desert. As Neal pointed out, no one knows what hatchlings do. The people who live in those areas don't even know. Its kind of like box turtles or CA desert tortoises here in the States. No one ever even sees a baby in the wild, much less studies them. They hatch and then disappear for a while. They reappear as juveniles. Nobody really knows what happens, where they go or what they eat during that time. We have a whole lot of people (scientist types) studying the CDT and yet we still know almost nothing about babies in the wild. We see pics of dead babies under raven nests, but that's about the only evidence we have of them even existing in the wild.

The guys who have been doing it for ten or more years have not been failing, and as a result, thousands of their hatchlings are started out perfectly smooth and healthy. The trial and error period ended for them many years ago. The problem is that most of the rest of us have not caught up yet, and I'm trying to speed up the process. My so called "experiments" are an attempt to end the arguing about this subject with the simple facts of success, and move tortoise knowledge forward. We can trade words all day long, but when I show a pic of a smooth sulcata or leopard, the arguments cease. What is there to argue? Its smooth. Its healthy. Its wet. The end.

Just a bit of animal trivia for you. Most (almost all) animals live nearly twice as long in captivity as they do in the wild. This is due to excellent medical care, lack of internal and external parasites, excellent hydration, balanced nutrition as needed, lack of competition from conspecifics, lack of predation and stress from attempted predation, temperature controlled shelter 24/7, etc...

I stated my case against mimicking "wild" conditions, but you persist. So my question to you is which wild conditions do you intend to try to mimic in your enclosures? Which of the multitudes of micro climates will you emulate? I propose that since no human being in the entire world even knows what to imitate, and even if we did know what to imitate, we couldn't successfully do it in a small captive environment anyway, that we go with what WORKS. What doesn't work is simulating desert conditions. What does work is hydration, humidity and moisture directly applied to the shell.

Please don't misunderstand all of this. It is NOT an attack of any sort. I've been accused of not liking it when I am questioned. Quite the contrary. I love it. It gives me opportunity and motivation to refine my thoughts, ideas and experience, and then put it into words and share it. When I am questioned, I simply answer. It seems more likely that my accusers don't like to be answered. I'm not mad or upset in any way, but the typed word doesn't show this. I'm am glad you are participating and I hope you continue to do so. I thoroughly enjoy, and learn from, conversations like this. It is my sincere hope that others do too.





onarock said:


> Jharris, to be honest, I was going to send you a PM earlier when I started reading the recent posts to this thread to warn you that you are edging yourself close to the deep end and I hope you know how to swim. I dont need to tell you what you already know and that is youve stumbled upon this forums "holy ground". But, after reading this, I'm sure youll do just fine... good on ya and well put.
> 
> Tom is a good guy and a passionate tortoise keeper that is h*ll bent set on helping to find a way to put an end to pyramiding. However, I have to say that I was a bit supprised, but,.... not totally, that he chose to attack you the way he did. Lucky you... one of Toms admirers didnt get to you first.



Paul, your cynicism is showing again. I have never "attacked" anyone on this forum. Jharris stated his case and I rebutted. When we talk on the phone again I'll demonstrate an "attack" for you,if you wish, so you'll know the difference. (I mean this in good fun, everyone.)

You are proving to be a crafty "adversary" here. You've made your opposition to these ideas well known, but it was very clever to label people with common sense who have discovered the same things I'm always ranting about as "Toms admirers". This way they will be reluctant to comment as no one wants to be know as an "admirer" of Tom. Could it be that they are just reasonably intelligent (or highly intelligent, in some cases), and have come to the same conclusions that I have? Could it be that they just happen to agree with the point of view being expressed and that they are NOT necessarily an "admirer of Tom" at all? Hmm...

Paul is a good guy too, and while I'm h*ll bent on ending pyramiding, he's h*ll bent on playing devil's advocate and keeping me honest and on my toes. He's also knows a heck of a lot more about torts than he lets on, and he's got a lot of experience with a lot of different species for those people that don't already know this.


----------



## Jharris1385

I highly appreciate your reply!

Just to make things 100% clear, the pictures you post to this thread show immaculate hatchlings and your work and strive for perfection is admirable.

Honestly if the minimal evidence of hatchling life points to a disappearing act or a life underground, I would highly assume it is for shelter and for health due to their growing shell. Or maybe just for shelter but since the conditions underground are moist a smooth shell is the result and thus a result of adaptational evolution...or even further thinking a result of natural selection in the wild. Ok I will stop there. So I agree, hydration is a huge factor in the early stages. My other personal thoughts are maybe more emphasis on Vitamin D3 consumption from longer periods outside or better indoor bulbs. There is a lot to be learned from D3 even in the human world that can play a role in other walks of life. For example it is dependent on good sources of cholesterol to metabolize the D3 from the sun in order for us to reap its benefits. I highly hope you have great result from this as it is something we can all learn from and duplicate.

I do know that captive raised turtles and other animals live longer as a result of their dependency however the quality of life during that span could be less than ideal. It is a cost vs. benefit analysis.


----------



## Tom

We are definitely agreed that there is more to be learned. I find it highly unlikely that we will ever reach a point where there ISN'T more to be learned.

D3 is another subject of much debate and again, despite the science and academia involved, I still fall back on what I know to work in the real world.

And, oh yeah, I forgot to thank you for your multiple compliments. THANK YOU. I did notice...


----------



## onarock

Tom, dont think I have ever apposed these ideas. Actually, I think I have been supportive and have posted such on a few occasions. However, I have made comments about the promotoin of these ideas as fact. I have also taken acception to those who make comments like "Nothing But Good has come from these ideas"... A bold statement in my opinion, especially when you take into consideration that the person was basing that statment on your very, very short term experiment.

I think you underestimate your admirers, they will show little to no reluctance to prove their loyalty. You know the ones I am talking about and so do I. They tend to get aggressive towards the opposition (not that I'm the opposition, but its likely that they will ignore my first paragraph and perceive me as such) and generally dont have an original thought, just a bunch of regurgitation. Sad, really... They will be along shortly.

Crafty Adversary? If only that were true. I had to look at your post twice so I could spell adversary right. Just a simple tortoise keeper.

Looking foreward to the phone call and I have to say that I think your too much of a "good sport" and a heck of a nice guy to "attack" me and besides... you love me 





Tom said:


> Paul, your cynicism is showing again. I have never "attacked" anyone on this forum. Jharris stated his case and I rebutted. When we talk on the phone again I'll demonstrate an "attack" for you,if you wish, so you'll know the difference. (I mean this in good fun, everyone.)
> 
> You are proving to be a crafty "adversary" here. You've made your opposition to these ideas well known, but it was very clever to label people with common sense who have discovered the same things I'm always ranting about as "Toms admirers". This way they will be reluctant to comment as no one wants to be know as an "admirer" of Tom. Could it be that they are just reasonably intelligent (or highly intelligent, in some cases), and have come to the same conclusions that I have? Could it be that they just happen to agree with the point of view being expressed and that they are NOT necessarily an "admirer of Tom" at all? Hmm...
> 
> Paul is a good guy too, and while I'm h*ll bent on ending pyramiding, he's h*ll bent on playing devil's advocate and keeping me honest and on my toes. He's also knows a heck of a lot more about torts than he lets on, and he's got a lot of experience with a lot of different species for those people that don't already know this.


----------



## Jacqui

Hey folks, this thread is really needing to be pruned and much of it moved to the debate section. So for now atleast, let's stop the debating on this thread and move it to on to a debate section pyramiding thread.


----------



## stells

If you are going to do that you may as well move the whole thread there... this thread is always going to be debatable... its always going to come up on here... its been debatable from day one...

BTW... my dry kept greeks are still growing lovely and smooth


----------



## Tom

Long overdue update: They continue to thrive and grow smoothly. Their growth still surprises me. They are both 12cm now and weight is between 318 and 366 grams... at just over 9 months old. I do not feed them any more than I've ever fed any tortoise. They get Mazuri twice a week now. On warm days, like today and yesterday, I don't feed them at all. They just graze in their outdoor pen for several hours. They, and this project, continue to bring me immeasurable joy. Hope you like the pics.


----------



## Robert

Wow Tom. Beautiful and smooth. Nice work and thanks for the update.


----------



## Fernando

friggin awesome looking.


----------



## spikethebest

LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## John

onarock said:


> Tom, dont think I have ever apposed these ideas. Actually, I think I have been supportive and have posted such on a few occasions. However, I have made comments about the promotoin of these ideas as fact. I have also taken acception to those who make comments like "Nothing But Good has come from these ideas"... A bold statement in my opinion, especially when you take into consideration that the person was basing that statment on your very, very short term experiment.
> 
> I think you underestimate your admirers, they will show little to no reluctance to prove their loyalty. You know the ones I am talking about and so do I. They tend to get aggressive towards the opposition (not that I'm the opposition, but its likely that they will ignore my first paragraph and perceive me as such) and generally dont have an original thought, just a bunch of regurgitation. Sad, really... They will be along shortly.
> 
> Crafty Adversary? If only that were true. I had to look at your post twice so I could spell adversary right. Just a simple tortoise keeper.
> 
> Looking foreward to the phone call and I have to say that I think your too much of a "good sport" and a heck of a nice guy to "attack" me and besides... you love me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Paul, your cynicism is showing again. I have never "attacked" anyone on this forum. Jharris stated his case and I rebutted. When we talk on the phone again I'll demonstrate an "attack" for you,if you wish, so you'll know the difference. (I mean this in good fun, everyone.)
> 
> You are proving to be a crafty "adversary" here. You've made your opposition to these ideas well known, but it was very clever to label people with common sense who have discovered the same things I'm always ranting about as "Toms admirers". This way they will be reluctant to comment as no one wants to be know as an "admirer" of Tom. Could it be that they are just reasonably intelligent (or highly intelligent, in some cases), and have come to the same conclusions that I have? Could it be that they just happen to agree with the point of view being expressed and that they are NOT necessarily an "admirer of Tom" at all? Hmm...
> 
> Paul is a good guy too, and while I'm h*ll bent on ending pyramiding, he's h*ll bent on playing devil's advocate and keeping me honest and on my toes. He's also knows a heck of a lot more about torts than he lets on, and he's got a lot of experience with a lot of different species for those people that don't already know this.
> 
> 
> 
> hahahaaaaaaa if were lucky tom will tell them too drink the kool-aide
Click to expand...


----------



## Kristina

How many times a day are you spraying on average, Tom? Just curious


----------



## Tom

kyryah said:


> How many times a day are you spraying on average, Tom? Just curious



At least 2, but some times up to 5 or 6. They soak once a day, but I have skipped a few days now and then.


----------



## ChiKat

Now those are some hydrated torts!! They look fantastic!!!
Nelson always looks dry (especially his face) and it drives me crazy. I spray him once a day.


----------



## Paige Lewis

They look stunning and i just love the picture of both of them, it looks like the tort on the left is following the other one and the other is like 'just stop following me', great torts, great pics.


----------



## Tom

Thanks everyone.


----------



## Tom

So here they are in a rare dry photo at 11 months old. Weights are between 420 and 480 grams. I opened up the entrance to their tunnel and underground chamber and they tried it out, but decided to stay up where it was warmer at the surface. Their pen is totally overgrown in weeds. Sometimes it takes me a few minutes to find them.


----------



## Yvonne G

They're so smooth! You must've read Tom's care sheet!


----------



## dmarcus

They look good Tom...


----------



## SnakeyeZ

Wow they look great! Really smooth... do you soak them daily?


----------



## Tom

SnakeyeZ said:


> Wow they look great! Really smooth... do you soak them daily?



Haha. That's funny...


----------



## SnakeyeZ

C'mon... just wanted you to say it one more time. I think you're onto something here.


----------



## Tom

Ya think??? 

I've been trying to solve the mystery of pyramiding for literally two decades. These babies are the first time I put everything I've learned into practice, from literally day one. I was really getting tired of all the arguing about this, that and the other thing, and decided to put up or shut up. If it had not worked, I would have been very embarrassed, very publicly. Suffice to say, I'm really glad it went the way I thought it would. There is not much point in anyone arguing anymore. Pictures don't lie or exaggerate. I've had a bunch of forum members come over and personally check out the whole set up and see them in person.

Its not a taunt or anything, but I would still really love to see pics of any smooth leopards or sulcatas from any of the people who were arguing about all of this humidity and hydration stuff with me. I don't know everything. There is still a lot more to be learned and I would love to see ANYONE else successfully raise a smooth sulcata or leopard using ANY method. We can all learn from each others successes AND failures.


----------



## SnakeyeZ

Tom said:


> Ya think???
> 
> I've been trying to solve the mystery of pyramiding for literally two decades. These babies are the first time I put everything I've learned into practice, from literally day one. I was really getting tired of all the arguing about this, that and the other thing, and decided to put up or shut up. If it had not worked, I would have been very embarrassed, very publicly. Suffice to say, I'm really glad it went the way I thought it would. There is not much point in anyone arguing anymore. Pictures don't lie or exaggerate. I've had a bunch of forum members come over and personally check out the whole set up and see them in person.
> 
> Its not a taunt or anything, but I would still really love to see pics of any smooth leopards or sulcatas from any of the people who were arguing about all of this humidity and hydration stuff with me. I don't know everything. There is still a lot more to be learned and I would love to see ANYONE else successfully raise a smooth sulcata or leopard using ANY method. We can all learn from each others successes AND failures.



Well said, once again they look great.


----------



## Sky2Mina

They are so beautiful!


----------



## Sky2Mina

They are so beautiful.


----------



## Katmb85

I'm brand new and I'm not sure what I'm doing here, I just hope someone replies... I live in Southern California (chino) and I have two 1 year old Sulcata's. For the first year I had them on Alfalfa pellet bedding and I just yesterday switched to Kellogg's All Natural Soil. I have a UVB (10.0 Repti Glo) light and a Heat Bulb and the temp in the cage varies 85-95. 

My tortoises appear to be healthy, one is about a month older then the other and he is about the size of my hand (average woman's hand) and the younger one is smaller and is growing very slowly but eats more than the larger one! Both have started pyramiding! The small guy is about palm-size. They nibble on a cuddle bone and I feed them mostly weeds (dandelion), grass, hibiscus, grape leaves, rose petals, cactus pad, kale, lettuces here and there. I must be doing something wrong since they have bumpy shells. I really care about them and I want them to be healthy. 

I am so overwhelmed by all of the info I find online and am told my different people who raise sulcata's. I even brought both of my tortoises to a Southern Cali Tortoise Club and everyone said they looked great and healthy, but if they have pyramids that can't be true- right? No one's info seems to match. I have read most of the posts by TOM and he seems to know what he is doing. I would some feedback on what I can do to help my little guys out. 

Both are very active and eat regularly. I used to feed every day but was told to start feeding every other day. 

Now that I am using soil the enclosure is definitely more humid. They have always had a water dish and I spray them occasionally. 

What else can I do for them? 
What is the diff between a MVB & UVB? I use UVB is that enough?
I notice sometimes the nibble at the soil, is this safe for them?

What are your recommendations?
What should the humidity level be?
Is natural soil a good/safe bedding to use?

THANKS EVERYONE!


----------



## ChiKat

At this point it seems that most people believe pyramiding is purely cosmetic- so it is definitely possible that your tortoises are very healthy! Their diet sounds great.
I am glad you switched to soil in their enclosure.
One of our members, Tom, has a Sulcata care sheet floating around here that I would follow to a T! I'm sure someone will point you in the right direction (I'll look for it too.)

And I will let those with Sulcatas answer your other questions! I only have 1 tortoise and he is a Russian


----------



## Yvonne G

Hi Katmb85:

Welcome to the forum!!

Please take a moment to start a new thread in the introduction section and tell us a bit about you and your tortoises.


----------



## Tom

Hi Katmb85. The conflicting info out in the world is very frustrating. I came up with these things after years of failure and research. I used to use the rabbit pellets and keep them dry too. It didn't work for me either. As you can see from this thread we are getting much closer to a solution, but there is still much more to learn. 

The answers to most of your questions can be found here:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-How-To-Raise-Sulcata-Hatchlings-and-Babies#axzz1Ky1nuOoG

Is your 10.0 bulb the coil type or the tube type?

As long as all else is good, pyramiding is believed to be cosmetic and doesn't hurt them. You can still have a healthy tortoise even if its pyramided. For the last two decades, since sulcatas and leopards first became well known and available, no one could grow them smooth. Its really only in the last few years that a few people have figured it out. The first reference I saw was in Richard and Jerry Fife's Leopard Tortoise book in 2007. Prior to that everyone kept these perceived "desert" species much too dry as hatchlings and babies. Through the work of the Fife's and several others like them, we are all now learning how to do it "right". I didn't invent this stuff, I'm just demonstrating what works for me on a public forum.

I feed every day. I used to feed light and skip days. The result was slow growing, but still pyramided, 13 year old mini-sulcatas. If conditions are good and the diet is right, lots of food will not make them pyramid.

MVB stands for mercury vapor bulb. These emit UV in the right spectrum and intensity for tortoises to convert dietary vitamin D2 into D3 which allows them to use the calcium in their diet. The manufacturers use all sorts confusing product names and terminology. To keep it really simple, all you need is a MVB OR lots of sunshine and your tortoise's UV needs will be met.

The problem with soil is that it usually has additives and fertilizers in it. If you found some with none of that, it should work fine. Most of us use other stuff, but as long as it can be kept damp, it should work just fine. There are several substrate suggestions in the care sheet. They should not be eating it. If they eat a little bit that's stuck to their food, its no big deal, but if they are chomping down mouthfuls of it, then something needs to change.

Don't forget to keep them warm, since your are adding humidity. I like to keep them 80 all the time with a basking spot of around 100 degrees for 12 hours a day.

Your diet sounds pretty good. I'd recommend adding a humid hide and if you don't already have an outdoor enclosure, I'd get one going right away. Sunshine and exercise is very good for them and Chino is a great place to put them outside almost year round. The climate there is very similar to mine so the things that work well for me should work well in your area too.

Following the care sheet above is the best thing I know to do to stop pyramiding and start getting good growth. Its mainly for hatchlings and babies, but it works for older ones too.

Good luck and keep us posted.


----------



## Katmb85

Thank you very much for your reply. So it seems like I am doing everything okay then?

The only thing that concerns me is that I don't take them outside, I use a 10.0 TUBE UVB light only. Have I already caused them harm by keeping them inside all year? If I start taking them outside now is it ok or am I too late? I don't want them to get MBD- they seem alright.

Another question, does a MBD light replace a UVB?
Is just the UVB not good enough? I'm really confused on that. I always though UVB was all they needed, and of course natural sun light like you just told me. (I will start natural light at least 2 times a week.)

I do not have a hide box. I will get one tomorrow along with a humidity gage and keep the enclosure 80% and 80-90 degrees hot. 


The soil I am using is all natural. The first day I used it the smaller sulcata tried to take a big bite of it. If this continues what else do you suggest? He also ate the alfalfa pellets when we had him in those. He is a pig, but like I mentioned earlier seems small for a 1 year old.

Please answer my 2 questions and also let me know if I am missing anything.

THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!

I meant to say does MVB replace the UVB.
I wrote MBD on accident!


----------



## Katmb85

I change the substrate to 100 percent coconut fiber- zoo med brand. I've been spraying it down all day to keep it damp and all of the little pieces keeps sticking all over my tortoises face arms and legs. Is there a solution for this? If not is that okay that it's sticking to him? It looks uncomfortable!


----------



## dmmj

It is not a problem they like to burrow in the stuff and it gets all over them, so I don't think they find it uncomfortable, but if it concerns you that much you could always provide a dish for them to soak and wash off in.


----------



## Katmb85

I do have a water dish inside the habitat. It became filled with the coco substrate within minutes. The water was nearly black with it. If the tortoise drinks from his bowl (he usually does) he will get a mouthful. Can't he get impacted if he does this?


----------



## Tom

Okay. I'll answer them one at a time.
1. Yes it sounds like you are doing okay.
2. It is best to take them out for sun from the time they hatch. Second best is to provide an indoor artificial source of UV. Your tube has done that. The tubes also need to be replace every 6 months or so, is what I've heard here on the site. I don't use them, so I'm no expert on UV tubes by any means. The mercury vapor bulb gives you UV, heat and light all in one. I think they are better than the tube lights. This is just my opinion based on personal observation of the animals kept under them for the last 20 years. The florescents used to not be effective at all, but I am told by the people who use and sell them that they have improved in the last few years. Either way, I prefer a MVB. Chino is such a perfect area for sunshine though. The best thing to do is build them an outdoor enclosure and let the sun provide them with free UV and save your expensive bulbs for the day when they have to be inside all day. Keeps your electric bill lower too. 
3. The coco fiber does that for a few days. Just give them fresh water as needed and it helps if you pack the substrate down with your hand. Eventually it packs down and doesn't stick to them so much. It is very unlikely that your tortoise will get an impaction from drinking out of a water bowl that he's tracked coco coir into.


----------



## Katmb85

Thanks a lot Tom! I've been taking them outside daily and also daily soaking and feedings. I appreciate all your feedback.


----------



## Tom

Tuck says, "We've got a birthday coming up..."






Trey says, "NO! MY birthday is still two more weeks away."


----------



## jackrat

Tom,those are drop dead gorgeous. I've never seen a sulcata with a carapace that nice. Are those the two you started the experiment with? If so,I think the routine is working out for you. LOL


----------



## ALDABRAMAN

jackrat said:


> Tom,those are drop dead gorgeous. I've never seen a sulcata with a carapace that nice. Are those the two you started the experiment with? If so,I think the routine is working out for you. LOL



I so agree, just beautiful.......Nice job sir!


----------



## Tom

Thanks fellas. Yep these are the same ones from last May. They are not perfect, and there is still more to learn, but I'm very happy with them. I've got a couple of new experiments planned for this year, but its a bit difficult. I'm finding that a major factor in how smooth they turn out is their preference for hanging out in the humid hide box, or not. My biggest smoothest one was in the hide box all the time. My smallest, bumpiest one was almost never in the humid hide. The middle one, seen in this most recent pic, sometimes sleeps in the hide and sometimes not. This year I have more babies to play with, so I'm going to try out a few different ideas that I've been mulling over.


----------



## Kristina

Question - how warm do you keep your humid hide?


----------



## Tom

The whole room is at 80 all the time. On hot days, it warms up to 90ish in there as an ambient, but then cools back down to 80 overnight. I've temped my humid hides anywhere from 78-90. Most of the time I'd say 80-82.

Why? What are you thinking? Tell us your ideas. I'm just about to start some new experiments this year involving ambient temp stuff, so I'd love to hear what you are thinking. I'll be starting a couple of new long term threads in the next few days.


----------



## Kristina

Where I am keeping my babies is 80*F ambient, with about 60% ambient humidity in the enclosure (10% more than in the house itself.) The hide itself has a blacklight bulb over it 24/7 that keeps it a constant 92* in the hide. The only other "basking" area is an incandescent bulb that hangs directly over the water dish. It keeps the water warm, like a little hottub  They lay in it a LOT. There is no area that is dry/hot. 

My babies are 5 months old now, hard as rocks and actually larger than yours were at the same age (at least heavier.)  They have never been under any sort of UV light, and the only "supplementation" they get is once weekly dusting with pure food grade calcium carbonate and a couple of pellets of Mazuri once a week. Just the last two weeks they have been able to go outside during the day.

They are also growing very smoothly. I wish I could STOP LOSING MY CAMERA CORD, I took some nice pictures the other day and I would show you. Ah, well.

Oh, and also, my Greek is 10 months old, hard as a rock, almost ten times the weight she was at 5 weeks. She also has never been under a UV lamp, and never been outside 

I have mentioned before that I thought that our basking temps are too hot and dry. I have raised my Sullies without a hot dry area, and they are doing AWESOME.


----------



## Tom

Good stuff Kristina. I've never put a bulb over water like that. Seems logical to me. Doesn't the humid hide dry out with that blacklight in it?

My ambient room humidity is only around 50%, but I get it up to 65-75% in the enclosures by covering the tops. Its 98-100% in the hide boxes.


----------



## CtTortoiseMom

Tom said:


> Thanks fellas. Yep these are the same ones from last May. They are not perfect, and there is still more to learn, but I'm very happy with them. I've got a couple of new experiments planned for this year, but its a bit difficult. I'm finding that a major factor in how smooth they turn out is their preference for hanging out in the humid hide box, or not. My biggest smoothest one was in the hide box all the time. My smallest, bumpiest one was almost never in the humid hide. The middle one, seen in this most recent pic, sometimes sleeps in the hide and sometimes not. This year I have more babies to play with, so I'm going to try out a few different ideas that I've been mulling over.



Do they only have one hide in their enclosure? If so do you think it is possible that they don't want to share? I wonder if you put three hides if they would go in whichever is not occupied. Just a thought.


----------



## Tom

I usually use a hide box that takes up an entire end of the enclosure. Plenty big inside, but you might be right. Sort of hard for me to test since I have around 30 babies in a 12x20 room. When I build my next reptile room, I might just have to try that out. I'll put a half dozen in individual enclosures by themselves and see how much they prefer their hide boxes when they are alone.

Once I get rid of these surplus leopard babies, I'll have a free tank...


----------



## ticothetort2

Tom said:


> I usually use a hide box that takes up an entire end of the enclosure. Plenty big inside, but you might be right. Sort of hard for me to test since I have around 30 babies in a 12x20 room. When I build my next reptile room, I might just have to try that out. I'll put a half dozen in individual enclosures by themselves and see how much they prefer their hide boxes when they are alone.
> 
> Once I get rid of these surplus leopard babies, I'll have a free tank...



How many surplus leo babies do you have to get rid of??


----------



## Kristina

The bulb isn't in the hide, it is over it. That is the beauty of it  The hide is just a gladware container with a door cut in it and stuffed with moss. The plastic is thin enough that it warms up nicely, but it also keeps the moisture from evaporating and the moss from drying out.


----------



## fgately

Wow, what a great read! I love it. 

It makes logical sense that the baby torts who manage to survive such hot, dry, and dangerous conditions, had to have evolved the ability to stay really well hidden. Staying hidden in burrows, rock crevices, or in and under vegetation will automatically include much higher levels of humidity. These smaller pockets of humidity are micro-climates in an otherwise arid environment. So the evolutionary necessity of good baby-tort-hiding abilities serves two purposes. One, they avoid predation by not being seen. Two, they maintain adequate levels of hydration by living in high-humidity micro-climates. Aint Mother Nature awesome! 

I also raise a few species of orchids, and many similar principles apply. It is easy to get orchids to live. Getting them to thrive is another matter. A seemingly small change to their environment can result in huge differences, both positive or negative. I was given an awesome orchid specimen called Schomburgkia about a year ago. Despite all the efforts of it's past owner, who was an orchid expert, it never bloomed in all the years he had it. I hung it up in a tree where it got way too much light (unintentionally) and it proceeded to shoot out a huge flower spike and is ready to bloom for the first time. 

So if this high level of humidity is necessary for the baby grassland torts to thrive, is it necessary for the adults? Or juveniles? I'll bet that once the baby torts are off to a good, smooth-shelled start, the humidity levels are not as crucial. Does pyramiding ever happen to a tort that was originally smooth shelled? 

Even though it appears as though the majority of us here are not formally scientists, this thread is all about utilizing the Scientific Method regarding humidity and pyramiding in the growth of tortoise shells. I used to teach the fifth grade, and the Scientific Method was one of the subjects I taught my students about. The Scientific Method is "a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses." Of course this has not been a carefully controlled scientific study, but it is adding to the body of knowledge out there regarding tortoise husbandry.

This has also been a lot of fun! 

Good work out there!


----------



## SnakeyeZ

Tom, they look really good. While you feel you can get them smoother those are still the smoothest I have seen. I am greatly envious of all you sulcata keepers.


----------



## Melly-n-shorty

I have learned a lot buy reading this thread!


----------



## Tom

Long overdue update: They are over one year now, as of Mid-May. They are both right around 600 grams. They are left outside now most of the time when the weather is nice, but then I soak them and they sleep in their humid enclosure at night. They use their underground burrow/box from time to time now, but usually hang out in the above ground weed bushes.

Trey:


I trained him to sing songs:






He caught me lookin', "Hey you!!!, Yeah you in the bushes with the camera..."



Tuck:
Check out the evil reptilian eye.





Just some beauty shots.


----------



## dmmj

Those are beautiful tom, great job, I wonder is your nickname around your house "Tortoise paparazzi guy"?


----------



## CGKeith

They are looking great Tom.


----------



## l0velesly

So cute! Love the pictures.


----------



## Sulcatifornia

Hello everyone, I'm a new member, I found this forum through google searches about tortoises and it's helped us alot. This thread especially has caught my interest and I have a question for everyone. I've never had tortoises before and I now have 3 baby sulcata, I plan on choosing 1 and eventually adopting out the other 2. I have no information about them from before they've been with me but I believe they're only a few months old. I'm wondering if any of you can tell if their carapaces are pyramiding?

Thanx so much!
Alyssa


----------



## dmarcus

Sulcatifornia said:


> Hello everyone, I'm a new member, I found this forum through google searches about tortoises and it's helped us alot. This thread especially has caught my interest and I have a question for everyone. I've never had tortoises before and I now have 3 baby sulcata, I plan on choosing 1 and eventually adopting out the other 2. I have no information about them from before they've been with me but I believe they're only a few months old. I'm wondering if any of you can tell if their carapaces are pyramiding?
> 
> Thanx so much!
> Alyssa



Hello Alyssa and welcome.

All three of them look good no pyramiding, smooth as they should be..


----------



## Tom

Hello and welcome. They look good so far. Have you seen the care sheet at the top of the sulcata page yet? That is a summary of how I like to keep the babies. You might finding it entertaining and even possibly a little bit useful. I find it VERY difficult to ever part with any of mine. Good luck choosing.


----------



## dmmj

Sulcatifornia said:


> Hello everyone, I'm a new member, I found this forum through google searches about tortoises and it's helped us alot. This thread especially has caught my interest and I have a question for everyone. I've never had tortoises before and I now have 3 baby sulcata, I plan on choosing 1 and eventually adopting out the other 2. I have no information about them from before they've been with me but I believe they're only a few months old. I'm wondering if any of you can tell if their carapaces are pyramiding?
> 
> Thanx so much!
> Alyssa


So far they look smooth to me.


----------



## Paganthegoat

My first Tortoises were raised in the early 1980`s , we hadnt a clue no one had and i found i had this Pyramiding, as time went on and everyone learnt more i had read that it was too much rapid growth much the same as a puppy getting a complete high protien puppy food and then being given vitamin and calcium suppliments on top .

We saw this a lot when complete dog foods came out (bone deformaties in pups), and the explaination seemed to make sence for the Tortoises too.

I last saw my youngesters when we moved they were the oldest about 15 years , the pyramiding had smoothed out in later years as i guess they had gone out more as they got older.

With a new clutch in the incubateing chamber im hopeing if thier fertile to get it right this time , very interesting thread .


----------



## -EJ

The idea of rapid growth as being a cause of pyramiding is slowly being accepted as being wrong... doesn't really make sense.

There is pretty much one source of this misinformation... and people are starting to realize... it's wrong in some cases.



Paganthegoat said:


> My first Tortoises were raised in the early 1980`s , we hadnt a clue no one had and i found i had this Pyramiding, as time went on and everyone learnt more i had read that it was too much rapid growth much the same as a puppy getting a complete high protien puppy food and then being given vitamin and calcium suppliments on top .
> 
> We saw this a lot when complete dog foods came out (bone deformaties in pups), and the explaination seemed to make sence for the Tortoises too.
> 
> I last saw my youngesters when we moved they were the oldest about 15 years , the pyramiding had smoothed out in later years as i guess they had gone out more as they got older.
> 
> With a new clutch in the incubateing chamber im hopeing if thier fertile to get it right this time , very interesting thread .


----------



## Paganthegoat

Well if thats so it makes life easier  .........i read my info from the British Chelonia group back in the 80`s i cannot remember who wrote the article did the study etc..I have just had a quick look and i cant find the article i am refering to , when i do i will post the details as i think it all helps compareing data etc .


----------



## Yvonne G

Sulcatifornia said:


> Hello everyone, I'm a new member,
> 
> Thanx so much!
> Alyssa



Hi Alyssa:

Welcome to the forum!!


----------



## Tom

Paganthegoat said:


> My first Tortoises were raised in the early 1980`s , we hadnt a clue no one had and i found i had this Pyramiding, as time went on and everyone learnt more i had read that it was too much rapid growth much the same as a puppy getting a complete high protien puppy food and then being given vitamin and calcium suppliments on top .
> 
> We saw this a lot when complete dog foods came out (bone deformaties in pups), and the explaination seemed to make sence for the Tortoises too.
> 
> I last saw my youngesters when we moved they were the oldest about 15 years , the pyramiding had smoothed out in later years as i guess they had gone out more as they got older.
> 
> With a new clutch in the incubateing chamber im hopeing if thier fertile to get it right this time , very interesting thread .



Ed is right. (He usually is...)

These guys in this thread are a good example. They went from 35 to 600 grams in one year and I really wasn't trying to grow them fast. That's pretty fast and they are pretty smooth. Growing them fast was not the goal here, but it was a side effect of all the healthy hydration.


----------



## Paganthegoat

Growing them fast was not my goal either just keeping them alive in the early 80`s was considered over here as an achivement, so it was some time before i actualy knew i had a problem. There was no internet and more or less no books, the only available resourse was the BCG in the UK . 

So its great to see another take on the subject , what interests me tho is lots of different Tortoises come from different habitats , some of which dont actualy have a lot of humidity , so is this the case accross the board on all baby Tortoises as i have Mediteranian species ?

Not for one minite trying to argue a point just trying to find out as much as possible and not make assumptions on my part


----------



## -EJ

They are different habitats but very similar micro habitats.



Paganthegoat said:


> Growing them fast was not my goal either just keeping them alive in the early 80`s was considered over here as an achivement, so it was some time before i actualy knew i had a problem. There was no internet and more or less no books, the only available resourse was the BCG in the UK .
> 
> So its great to see another take on the subject , what interests me tho is lots of different Tortoises come from different habitats , some of which dont actualy have a lot of humidity , so is this the case accross the board on all baby Tortoises as i have Mediteranian species ?
> 
> Not for one minite trying to argue a point just trying to find out as much as possible and not make assumptions on my part


----------



## Paganthegoat

Ah right , thank you for that


----------



## Tom

I share Ed's opinion on this question. I have so far tried the "wet" routine with both subspecies of leopards (42 of them), lots of sulcatas (dozens), and a few CA Desert torts. I know that it is safe and it works with all of those. I can't speak from personal experience with any others yet. Lots of people have been posting on the forum with other species, including Mediterranean ones, with good results. They key seems to be the temps. Just don't let it get any cooler than 75 if you go high on the humidity. This is a bit higher than most people recommend for most Testudo sp. I often see a night drop down to 65 recommended. I wouldn't do that in a very humid environment. For an adult in an open tort table, sure. But not for a baby in a humid tank. Just my opinion and as I said it is totally untested by me, yet...


----------



## Tonka's Dad

Hey Tom,

Great thread you have going - very informative for newbs like me. I have a sulcata hatchling that was purchased with what I think is mild pyramiding. He is still only about 2-2.5 inches long so I'm hoping there is a chance to get him relatively smooth again as he grows. Have you had much luck turning things around for hatchlings that got off on a rocky start?

Has anyone ever used a household humidifier to amp the humidity in the room they keep their tortoise table in? I'm wetting down and remixing the coconut substrate I'm using, as it is the only way I can keep the humidity over 80 and thought keeping more moisture in the whole room might help.


----------



## onarock

Tonka said:


> Hey Tom,
> 
> Great thread you have going - very informative for newbs like me. I have a sulcata hatchling that was purchased with what I think is mild pyramiding. He is still only about 2-2.5 inches long so I'm hoping there is a chance to get him relatively smooth again as he grows. Have you had much luck turning things around for hatchlings that got off on a rocky start?
> 
> Has anyone ever used a household humidifier to amp the humidity in the room they keep their tortoise table in? I'm wetting down and remixing the coconut substrate I'm using, as it is the only way I can keep the humidity over 80 and thought keeping more moisture in the whole room might help.



Tonka's Dad, I know there is one member using a humidifier to up the humidity right in the tortoise enclosure (Hustler) in Canada. As far as people using them to humidify the entire room I believe there are a few on here doing just that. As far as trying to keep the humidity over 80%, thats a bit overkill. If you back down your basking temps to a more moderate 85-95 degrees you wont need as much humidity to compensate. Good luck


----------



## Fernando

Tonka said:


> Hey Tom,
> 
> Great thread you have going - very informative for newbs like me. I have a sulcata hatchling that was purchased with what I think is mild pyramiding. He is still only about 2-2.5 inches long so I'm hoping there is a chance to get him relatively smooth again as he grows. Have you had much luck turning things around for hatchlings that got off on a rocky start?
> 
> Has anyone ever used a household humidifier to amp the humidity in the room they keep their tortoise table in? I'm wetting down and remixing the coconut substrate I'm using, as it is the only way I can keep the humidity over 80 and thought keeping more moisture in the whole room might help.



80% seems a bit high, but I use a humidifier at the moment as well (Reptifogger). On the lowest setting, my humidity percentage level is 70% so that is where I have it. If you decide to use a humidifier, I would recommend you not go below 80 degrees on the coldest side during the day. I'd even suggest you turn it off at night while everyone is asleep and other heat elements are off (i.e. Daytime heat lamp).


----------



## Tonka's Dad

Thanks for the insight on the over 80% - nice to know I can back off on that a bit since re-wetting the substrate (well beyond just misting) was a pain. I'll have to look into the reptifogger.


----------



## FranklinAndTara

I just got a couple of sulcatas... they have been raised outdoors in florida (super humid) and they are Pyramided.... But the woman i got them from said "i only fed them romaine lettuice"


----------



## -EJ

Keep in mind florida is not always hot and humid... also consider that the tortoises were kept indoors... in an airconditioned house.



FranklinAndTara said:


> I just got a couple of sulcatas... they have been raised outdoors in florida (super humid) and they are Pyramided.... But the woman i got them from said "i only fed them romaine lettuice"


----------



## Fernando

There is an Aldabra breeder here on the forum named Aldabraman (Greg). He lives in Florida and says that you guys have the humidity part, but he attributes it also to diet too. But then again his aldabra are kept outdoors year around.


----------



## Tom

onarock said:


> Tonka's Dad, I know there is one member using a humidifier to up the humidity right in the tortoise enclosure (Hustler) in Canada. As far as people using them to humidify the entire room I believe there are a few on here doing just that. As far as trying to keep the humidity over 80%, thats a bit overkill. If you back down your basking temps to a more moderate 85-95 degrees you wont need as much humidity to compensate. Good luck



I disagree with the above. I've tried using basking temps that low here in the states and my tortoises just park right under the heat lamp all day. They can't get warm enough and sitting under the light all day just dries out the carapace even more. I find right around 100 to be the best basking temp. In my enclosures they move in and out of the basking spot throughout the day. They bask for a while then move around a bit once they are up to the temp they want to be at. This is the same thing they do outside. They sit in the sun until they are warm enough then start moving around and hunting shade. On cooler days here my adults will sometimes sit in the sun for hours. On hot days, like now, they don't really bask at all, they just walk around doing their daily business in the morning and evening and find shade for most of the middle of the day when its over 100 here.

I suggest you let your tortoise be your guide. There are a lot of individual factors that determine the "best" temp for anyone's set up. Set your temp where ever you want it and then watch his behavior. If he just sits under the light all day and rarely moves out from under it, its probably too cool. If he stays over on the cool side of the tank and rarely basks, its probably too warm. If you get a good mixture of basking and moving around or resting elsewhere in the enclosure, then you've probably got it just right. I'm constantly tweaking my enclosures to get things just right. I make seasonal changes and sometimes make changes as they get bigger or if I see behavior changes.


----------



## kbaker

Tom said:


> I suggest you let your tortoise be your guide.



Well said...and it took how many posts?


----------



## Tom

kbaker said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest you let your tortoise be your guide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well said...and it took how many posts?
Click to expand...


Well it says 473 in the upper right corner...


----------



## ALDABRAMAN

Fernando said:


> There is an Aldabra breeder here on the forum named Aldabraman (Greg). He lives in Florida and says that you guys have the humidity part, but he attributes it also to diet too. But then again his aldabra are kept outdoors year around.



Yes, our aldabras are kept outside in Florida all year and grow very nice, heavy, and no pryamiding.


----------



## mctlong

This is a fascinating forum. I live in the San Fernando Valley of California which is generally hot and dry (low humidity). My outdoor RT's shell is very smooth, zero pyramiding. 

I don't doubt that humidity plays a role in shell development, especially is young torts. However, I think Tom's said it best: 
"let your tortoise be your guide".

I got my RT as a young (4-inch) WC. I keep him outside and he's been out there for about 4 years (minus the winters when I bring him indoors). I water the outdoor enclosure several times a week to keep his plants fresh and green. Because of the hot, dry weather, water evaporates very quickly, so the surface of the entire enclosure is generally dry, but just below the surface remains damp most of the time. His enclosure also has a dry hideaway box that is packed with dry orchard grass. 

I've found that he's very good at regulating himself. I don't need to obsess about humidity. He seeks out dry areas when he needs them and wet areas when he needs them. While he has the option of burrowing in the dirt which contains subsurface moisture, he almost always chooses to spend his nights in the dry hideaway box. On occasion, if he needs water, he'll climb into his water dish. In the same way, if he needs UV's, he'll sit in the sun. If its too hot out for his taste, he'll sit in the shade, climb in his box, or dig himself a hole to relax in. These animals are far better at regulating themselves then we are at regulating them. Watch your tortoise, use common sense, and as Tom said "let your tortoise be your guide."


----------



## onarock

Your welcome. A recent field study of leopard tortoises at both high elevation and sea level was conducted over a year using remote probe thermometers inserted up the tortoises cloaca. They showed that the desired core temp of theses tortoises is around 92F. They seek out both sun and shade to keep their core at this temp. There are also Senior TFO members that do not use basking spots at all and only provide ambient temp of 86f with very moderate humidity that get great results. (Discaimer..upcoming hearsay, but you can email and ask him yourself) Not wanting to name drop, so I wont, I'll just call him the Godfather of Radiated tortoises and Burmese star tortoieses in this country doesnt even provide a basking spot for his hatchling tortoises untill they are over 4" SCL. And, at this point he only provides a basking spot of 95-98f for 1 hour in the morning and 1 hour in the afternoon. 
Anyone who says that their tortoies will just sit under the lamp unless its 100f is probably having other husbandry issues, I suspect not enough, or bright enough ambient light.



Tonka said:


> Thanks for the insight on the over 80% - nice to know I can back off on that a bit since re-wetting the substrate (well beyond just misting) was a pain. I'll have to look into the reptifogger.


----------



## mctlong

onarock said:


> A recent field study of leopard tortoises at both high elevation and sea level was conducted over a year using remote probe thermometers inserted up the tortoises cloaca.




That doesn't sound pleasant.


----------



## River14

dmmj said:


> WOW, so the old " he grows to fast" theory is still around?



Im new to this whole subject, but my Star hatchlings now a year are not "pyramided", however many tortoises in the wild certainly are.

I have studied the growth and management of young horses and can say absolutely along with all studies and control groups that high protein diets too soon encouraging rapid growth lead to chronic joint problems in warm blood adults and three year olds. These are big animals but must be left to mature slowly. 

The problem is grass contains a load of protein, add to this horse feed also high in protein leads to trouble. There is though a three tiered program to get the horse through all this in health. One is daily exercise or preferably unlimited excersise sun rain whatever this strengthens bones and joints and is absolutely vital, the other is to reduce protein or supplementary feed to just grass, hay and or silage. The last is absolutely no supplements unless the grazing is very much lacking in certain important elements. This will differ from area to area but is rarely a problem and if it is it will be well known amongst farmers etc.

Im slightly sceptical about the humidity aspect here. Ok tortoises are not horses, but in the wild hatchlings tortoises will go through humid and extremely dry periods in varying seasons as they grow with no ill affects. 

Homopus signatus the smallest tortoise on earth will endure wet cold winters and bone dry summers with no humidity at all in the wild they are naturally pyramided but still require spraying to keep up the humidity level in the first three weeks of life. This isn't to prevent pyramiding but to make sure they are hydrated.

As far as I can work out tortoises are slaves to their environment, and this being extremely volatile will adapt , but most importantly at their own pace. 

So if a Sulcata is pyramided or not might depend on many different things but essentially is not a problem for health unless incorrect artificial conditions are forced on it. This might mean rapid growth due to feeding but bone dry, or slow growth due to bad diet combined with overly humid conditions where it most probably simply will die if its lucky.

Im rather amazed that no one looks to the natural environment of these creatures for clues. Experiment all you want with humidity protein but until you know how it all come together in its natural environment and naturally variable conditions you will always be blind.

I suppose in fact there are no perfect conditions rather the variables that nature throws its way. They survive all this just swell, given natural sunshine just enough food and periodical months of extreme lean.

Tey are masters of their environment and not of ours. (im Irish of decent give me a break)


----------



## reighneyday

Just read through this entire thread. Wow! Tom if I ever make it to California, I am going to shake your hand and buy you a case of your favorite beer! HAHA! Purchased a female sulcata, which i named Venus, last month from a show in Southwest Pennsylvania. Total rookie, no experience whatsoever. Friend talked me into buying her on the spot. Did an hour's worth of research at the show before I pulled the trigger and bought her. Since then I have read for countless hours trying to get the husbandry, diet, lighting, etc correct. I really feel like a weight has been lifted off of my shoulders. Just from reading through this forum. I desperately wanted to get this 100% right. 



The tiny container I carried her out in.

Obviously, the couple that I bought her from read your thread or have been around for 20 years and on the cutting edge, like yourself! She is smooth as can be!! I'm making the necessary changes to my setup the second I wake up tomorrow. Will post more pictures in the near future. And I'll ask the couple I bought her from about their experiences and post those as well. 

Thanks again Tom and all those who have worked toward raising these reptiles properly!!

Reighney, proud papa of Venus


----------



## Yvonne G

Hi Reighney:

Welcome to the forum!!

Your little baby is much to young to be seeing any effects of poor-keeping. They don't start pyramiding until they start growing. You can tell by the dark lines between the scutes on the carapace, that your baby hasn't started growing yet. Also, just so you won't be disappointed down the line, she's much to young to tell the sex yet. I'd be willing to bet she turns out to be "he." (the majority of them are)

Glad to have you here. You seem like a very interested and caring tortoise keeper.


----------



## ALDABRAMAN

reighneyday said:


> Just read through this entire thread. Wow! Tom if I ever make it to California, I am going to shake your hand and buy you a case of your favorite beer! HAHA! Purchased a female sulcata, which i named Venus, last month from a show in Southwest Pennsylvania. Total rookie, no experience whatsoever. Friend talked me into buying her on the spot. Did an hour's worth of research at the show before I pulled the trigger and bought her. Since then I have read for countless hours trying to get the husbandry, diet, lighting, etc correct. I really feel like a weight has been lifted off of my shoulders. Just from reading through this forum. I desperately wanted to get this 100% right.
> 
> 
> The tiny container I carried her out in.
> 
> Obviously, the couple that I bought her from read your thread or have been around for 20 years and on the cutting edge, like yourself! She is smooth as can be!! I'm making the necessary changes to my setup the second I wake up tomorrow. Will post more pictures in the near future. And I'll ask the couple I bought her from about their experiences and post those as well.
> 
> Thanks again Tom and all those who have worked toward raising these reptiles properly!!
> 
> Reighney, proud papa of Venus





Welcome.


----------



## Tom

Hello and welcome. Thanks for the support and good luck with your baby.



Hey, Yvonne. Don't wreck my free beer...


----------



## PEEEETE

Thank you for all your hard work, Tom. I'm going to call the lady I got PÃ©pe from and tell her to read this thread as I have. I'm trying to follow your regiment exactly, I only wish that PÃ©pe will be as beautiful as your 3 one day. 

I was curious about the reaction to the mistings... My baby seems to run back to his hide, or to his basking spot, every time i mist him. Is this normal? Should I use warm water? Is is possibly just shocking him because it's a new thing to him, and it scares him? Thanks for your help, again.

Also, which town in So-Cal are you from? I got my hatchling in Hemet.


----------



## Tom

They get used to the spraying within a few days usually. My yearlings don't even react any more. Some of the babies run for the hills, but its good for them so I do it anyway. You can always pick them up and spray in your hand r put them in a shallow tub of water and lightly splash them before putting them back in their enclosure.

I know Hemet well. I'm up in Santa Clarita, just North of Los Angeles. Still L.A. County.

If your baby lady will give the "wet" method a try, she will never go back to the "dry" method again. The difference is amazing!


----------



## drgnfly2265

I know I'm a little late to thise thread but after reading this I have changed somethings to how I take care of Bowser. 

The first was getting rid of the hay and getting cypress mulch (ty again for the help Tom  ). The hay was horrible with humidity that I aleady had on the porch and molded like crazy.

Also I am now misting her once or twice daily. At first she was a little hesitant of what was going on but now she loves it! I mist her when she is inside in her area and she walks around in it and tries to eat the spray bottle (maybe getting a yellow one wasn't a great idea, it looks like one of her favorite food squash, lol). Plus I'll mist her area too to keep it humid. Then not to mention the huge water bowl that she has that she drinks out of a lot and lays in too. Right after I mist her I notice that she wants to eat during or right after the misting, it makes her hungry I guess?

After seeing how great your little torts looked I couldn't resist. They look amazing! Bowser seems to be a little more active since I have been doing this, and not to mention that it is a great bonding time


----------



## Tom

Its been a long time since my last update. Tuck and Trey are doing great. They've been living outside full time now for most of the summer. Trey puts himself away every night, but Tuck can't seem to figure it out...
They live here now:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Daisy-s-New-Enclosure#axzz1bODSMaJo

Tuck is 850 grams and Trey is 1026. They are fantastic torts and I look forward to watching them grow up.


----------



## CtTortoiseMom

They are perfect Tom!! I want them!!


----------



## Tom

Thank you Erin. I let one go a few months ago and I've regretted it ever since. I should have just kept all three. I don't think I'll ever part with these two. I hope my daughter continues to love tortoises into adulthood...


----------



## Morty the Torty

This is great! I'm going to start misting every day now


----------



## Tom

Richard Fife is the one who convinced me that misting was the way to go with sulcatas and leopards. Terry K. introduced me to the concept with his redfoots.


----------



## jackrat

Tom said:


> Its been a long time since my last update. Tuck and Trey are doing great. They've been living outside full time now for most of the summer. Trey puts himself away every night, but Tuck can't seem to figure it out...
> They live here now:
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Daisy-s-New-Enclosure#axzz1bODSMaJo
> 
> Tuck is 850 grams and Trey is 1026. They are fantastic torts and I look forward to watching them grow up.


Wow Tom,are they ever growing! And smooth as a baby's butt too.


----------



## Kristina

They are about a year and a half now, am I right?

They look beautiful. They are going to be some of the most gorgeous captive bred Sulcatas that ever were when they are adults. You have to stick with TFO, Tom... I *HAVE* to see what they look like in 5 years!


----------



## Tom

Thanks Kristina. I have no intention of going anywhere. They are outside full time now, so I wonder what the "weathering" will do to their already pretty smooth shells. I've seen plenty of examples of young sulcatas that were fairly pyramided turn out fantastically smooth and beautiful, so I can't wait to see how these are going to turn out. I'm also dying to know the sex. They are hovering right in the middle. I can't tell at all yet.


----------



## paper_boy

Hi this would be my first post. First of all congrats to tom for finally winning the war on pyramiding! I have read all post on the subject and I'm convinced that this is the way to go in raising torts. Now for my question, do you this can also apply to radiatas? i know that weather in madagascar, from which the originate, is somewhat different than sulcatas. But from my understanding, radiatas experience monsoon rains half a year so it would make sense to me that tom's approach will work well for radiatas.

Any insights guys?


----------



## Tom

That is uncharted territory paper_boy. I think most people do keep radiata with more humidity than a typical sulcata or leopard, but I don't know if anyone has gone so far as the daily soaks, spraying and humid hides. I'd love to learn from someone else's experience. 

Just saw your intro thread. If your radiata are already 5", then the pattern for growth is probably already pretty well set. If they are smooth, I'd love to know how whoever raised them did it. Well heck, even if they aren't, I still love to know how they were raised.


----------



## terribrown71

How pretty Tom. [/color][/b]


----------



## MatrixDJ

Thank you Tom, for creating this thread! It is an amazing story and great research!! I just got Athena, my 4 month old greek a short while back and she gets misted every day now too after her bath.


----------



## kastalarial

Hi,

I am new to tortoises and just purchased my first sulcata. I already asked Tom for advice. Below are the pictures. It's 5 months old and according to the breeder he never let's his sulcatas drink water and only dip them once a week. Are there any signs of pyramiding, if so is it too late to stop it?
































Sorry for the photos, I only have my iPod.


----------



## dmmj

I see very slight (to me anyways) pyramiding on the top. The best way to tell is to close your eyes and run your fingers over the top of it's shell, it should feel smooth and not bumpy.


----------



## kastalarial

Let me also add the I will religiously follow Tom's regimen on growing and misting. 

Please help me understand if this is a "normal" shell of babies?


----------



## kastalarial

dmmj said:


> I see very slight (to me anyways) pyramiding on the top. The best way to tell is to close your eyes and run your fingers over the top of it's shell, it should feel smooth and not bumpy.



It feels normally smooth. I don't feel mountainy bumps. My question is, if I religiously follow Tom's regimen, will the scutes be closer at some point or is it too late to achieve that?


----------



## evlinLoutries

Just wanna share my opinion, I raised radiated, babcocki, sulcata, cherry head, indian star and they are not having a pyramiding shell at all..

Even I adopted a pyramiding one, they are not become more pyramiding..

So here's how I kept them : I gave them meal only once a day, with a limit food, not mist them, gave them warm bath once a week, gave them moderation food, and not gave them any source of heat at night,.

I don't know exactly the point that make me success to prevent pyramiding, but thats all I do..


----------



## kastalarial

evlinLoutries said:


> Just wanna share my opinion, I raised radiated, babcocki, sulcata, cherry head, indian star and they are not having a pyramiding shell at all..
> 
> Even I adopted a pyramiding one, they are not become more pyramiding..
> 
> So here's how I kept them : I gave them meal only once a day, with a limit food, not mist them, gave them warm bath once a week, gave them moderation food, and not gave them any source of heat at night,.
> 
> I don't know exactly the point that make me success to prevent pyramiding, but thats all I do..



Do you have some pics of tortoises that you manage to prevent pyramiding? I'd love to see them.


----------



## kastalarial

evlinLoutries said:


> Just wanna share my opinion, I raised radiated, babcocki, sulcata, cherry head, indian star and they are not having a pyramiding shell at all..
> 
> Even I adopted a pyramiding one, they are not become more pyramiding..
> 
> So here's how I kept them : I gave them meal only once a day, with a limit food, not mist them, gave them warm bath once a week, gave them moderation food, and not gave them any source of heat at night,.
> 
> I don't know exactly the point that make me success to prevent pyramiding, but thats all I do..



One more thing, since we live in the same part of the globe. Could you share to me what are you feeding your torts? Most of the plants in the western care sheets aren't available locally or very hard to find. Is it ok to feed the "kangkong" a.k.a. swamp, chinese cabbage and or sweet potato leaves?


----------



## Tom

kastalarial,

Yes, that is the start of pyramiding, and its no surprise given the way he was kept. I have seen them go from much worse than that and turn out perfectly fine with the right conditions. The little raised ridges will not disappear, but if the new growth is smooth they will start to blend in and as an adult it will hardly be noticeable. I turned mine around using the methods in the care sheet. Just remember to keep them warm day and night with all the humidity.


----------



## evlinLoutries

kastalarial said:


> Do you have some pics of tortoises that you manage to prevent pyramiding? I'd love to see them.



U can see it on my thread..


----------



## Yvonne G

I think the fact that Devlin (elvinloutries) lives in Indonesia, has a lot to do with the shape of the tortoise's shell.


----------



## evlinLoutries

kastalarial said:


> One more thing, since we live in the same part of the globe. Could you share to me what are you feeding your torts? Most of the plants in the western care sheets aren't available locally or very hard to find. Is it ok to feed the "kangkong" a.k.a. swamp, chinese cabbage and or sweet potato leaves?



Where were u live actually.

I fed them siomak, fumak, hibiscus flower and leafs, mulberry leafs, mustard greens, opuntia cactus, grass,.

I never fed them with kangkung (swamp), cause from the table I read, it has a negative content that may cause digestive problems on tort.. CMIIW



emysemys said:


> I think the fact that Devlin (elvinloutries) lives in Indonesia, has a lot to do with the shape of the tortoise's shell.



Myabe, u have a point there,,

Cause humidity in here was very acceptable for tortoise, arround 60up..

Anyway, how do u know my name? Have I ever mentioned it? 

But its Devin, lol..


----------



## Tom

Yes Devin. The whole point of this thread, and the care sheet too, is to try to help people here in the US and other countries attempt to SIMULATE the tropical, warm, humid conditions that you live in every day.


----------



## kastalarial

Tom said:


> kastalarial,
> 
> Yes, that is the start of pyramiding, and its no surprise given the way he was kept. I have seen them go from much worse than that and turn out perfectly fine with the right conditions. The little raised ridges will not disappear, but if the new growth is smooth they will start to blend in and as an adult it will hardly be noticeable. I turned mine around using the methods in the care sheet. Just remember to keep them warm day and night with all the humidity.



Kindly tell me if I am doing this right. I always make sure he has food. I mist him 10 times a day and soak him 2 times x 20 mins each. I then let him walk around at noon till 1pm and feed on grass lawn. At night I leave on an incandescent bulb because I noticed the swampy coco fiber is cooler than I hoped since it is already November.


----------



## evlinLoutries

Tom said:


> Yes Devin. The whole point of this thread, and the care sheet too, is to try to help people here in the US and other countries attempt to SIMULATE the tropical, warm, humid conditions that you live in every day.



yeah, but at night, our temp here can be at 20Ëš C, it was at my home..

if raining it could be more cool that 20Ëš C..


----------



## Tom

kastalarial said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> kastalarial,
> 
> Yes, that is the start of pyramiding, and its no surprise given the way he was kept. I have seen them go from much worse than that and turn out perfectly fine with the right conditions. The little raised ridges will not disappear, but if the new growth is smooth they will start to blend in and as an adult it will hardly be noticeable. I turned mine around using the methods in the care sheet. Just remember to keep them warm day and night with all the humidity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kindly tell me if I am doing this right. I always make sure he has food. I mist him 10 times a day and soak him 2 times x 20 mins each. I then let him walk around at noon till 1pm and feed on grass lawn. At night I leave on an incandescent bulb because I noticed the swampy coco fiber is cooler than I hoped since it is already November.
Click to expand...


I don't think there is ONE right way. There are a million variables including where you live, the conditions in YOUR house, the time of year, each individual enclosure, etc... In the past I have misted 10 times a day, but I don't find that necessary. I also don't find it harmful either. Same thing with the soaks. On a really hot day if they were out in the sun a long time, I might soak mine twice, but usually once a day gets the job done for me. As they get older and bigger, I usually cut it down to every other day or so, with some exceptions like the aforementioned hot sunny days with with long outdoor sessions here in our super dry, hot air. You will have to experiment a bit to find just the right balance for you and your situation. I'm constantly thinking about all the variables and making little tweaks here an there. Many of my adjustments are seasonal based too.

You DO need to make it dark at night for him, but still keep it warm. That one is really not debatable or variable.


----------



## reighneyday

Nap time under the lights



Venus is now 90 grams. A gain of 3-4 grams per week since I purchased her. I have followed Tom's care sheet and have pretty much made it up as I've gone along. I live in the northeast so she is inside for the winter. I mist her a couple times a day and soak her 3-4 times a week. She seems well hydrated and very happy. 

The most important thing I have found is to watch your tort's body language and habits. I'm still making tweaks week by week, day by day, to the husbandry, lighting, etc. And (with any pet) making the time sacrifice to ensure you get it right. 

Thanks again to all the contributors of this thread.


----------



## Connie

With all the "theories" out there---is one fact certain?-->That wild tortoises all have smoothe shells?? The problem is that capitives are the only ones with this pyamiding problem?? Could this all be STRESS related to the captive animal??????


----------



## Yvonne G

Connie said:


> With all the "theories" out there---is one fact certain?-->That wild tortoises all have smoothe shells?? The problem is that capitives are the only ones with this pyamiding problem?? Could this all be STRESS related to the captive animal??????



Hi Connie:

Won't you take a few moments to start a new thread in the "Introductions" section and tell us a bit about yourself?

Because you're new here, you probably haven't read the thread Tom wrote citing information given to him by a man in Africa who has a huge sulcata project going on in their native land. This man has told us that baby sulcatas in Africa hatch out during wet weather in boggy/marshy areas and live in wet conditions. This gives credence to our "keep 'em moist" theory.


----------



## Connie

emysemys said:


> Connie said:
> 
> 
> 
> With all the "theories" out there---is one fact certain?-->That wild tortoises all have smoothe shells?? The problem is that capitives are the only ones with this pyamiding problem?? Could this all be STRESS related to the captive animal??????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Connie:
> 
> Won't you take a few moments to start a new thread in the "Introductions" section and tell us a bit about yourself?
> 
> Because you're new here, you probably haven't read the thread Tom wrote citing information given to him by a man in Africa who has a huge sulcata project going on in their native land. This man has told us that baby sulcatas in Africa hatch out during wet weather in boggy/marshy areas and live in wet conditions. This gives credence to our "keep 'em moist" theory.
Click to expand...

Hi Yvonne,
I also read that red foots can be found in forests (wet or damp most of the time?) but in grass lands(dry). I know nothing of any other "Breed" of tortoises for I just gotr my "Ruby" and and trying hard to find out as much as I can about red foots.
I want her to be healthy and happy but I also know that Stress can play havic on any living creature, humans included. It can lead to all sorts of disorders.. I know feather picking in birds (I have 4 parrots and 6 finches)only occurs in captive bred birds. Stress, diet and boredom plays a major there.....



emysemys said:


> Connie said:
> 
> 
> 
> With all the "theories" out there---is one fact certain?-->That wild tortoises all have smoothe shells?? The problem is that capitives are the only ones with this pyamiding problem?? Could this all be STRESS related to the captive animal??????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Connie:
> 
> Won't you take a few moments to start a new thread in the "Introductions" section and tell us a bit about yourself?
> 
> Because you're new here, you probably haven't read the thread Tom wrote citing information given to him by a man in Africa who has a huge sulcata project going on in their native land. This man has told us that baby sulcatas in Africa hatch out during wet weather in boggy/marshy areas and live in wet conditions. This gives credence to our "keep 'em moist" theory.
> 
> I posted my introduction in the introduction area as my first post... The title is Red Foot...
Click to expand...


----------



## BrinnANDTorts

I have some questions. I have been keeping Gupta in very high humidity for a while now (85%-91%) he has a constant water source. 

The main this is that I don't mist him that much(maybe once every other day or less) Is that really really important ? I was under the impression that is wasn't that important . I thought that humidity was the main thing which I have nailed and Gupta has had really smooth growth. His shell itself isn't constantly wet.
I also stopped soaking him as much as I use to because he struggles and struggles to get out after maybe ten minutes and it makes him poop. I'm still not sure or not if its good for them to poop before their body is naturally ready so I try not to do it that much. I don't know much about it though.
I use to be able to soak him for like an hour under a light bulb at a time without him caring, now he hates it. 
He use to get squirted a lot more than he does now because that was when he was in his old enclosure and i squirted it down to make it humid. In his new one its to big to squirt and squirt the whole thing so I just pour a ton of warm , warm water into the substrate and mix it all around and use a humidifier sometimes. 

Should I just make him stay in his soaks and not worry about the pooping and go back to squirting him a lot?


----------



## StudentoftheReptile

This is just my understanding of it....perhaps I'm wrong; someone feel free to correct me if that's the case.

Just taking into account all that's been laid on the table about humidity and hydration, this thread and others like it, Tom's recountings of his talks with Tomas, the "Scientific Studies pt 1" thread, etc...I would think that regular misting would have a greater effect on preventing pyramiding than just soaking would. It seems to me it has a lot to do with that water getting into the cracks between the scutes as well as water running down the carapace when misted. High humidity in the environment does this as well as misting (in nature, this may come from the morning dew collecting on the shell and rainfall, too). 

Just sticking the tortoise in water up to its chin wouldn't do a whole lot for preventing pyramiding in my opinion. Perhaps my method/definition of proper soaking technique differs from others, but given what I said above, unless you're submerging the tortoises entirely underwater to make sure all areas of the carapace (where pyramiding typically occurs!) gets good and wet and dripping, I don't think it gets the same effect. [and I'm NOT implying anyone should completely submerge their tortoise underwater! The statement was rhetorical.]

Now I'm not saying anyone shouldn't soak their tortoises. I mean, I still do mine, but I do it more for hydration purposes, to ensure they're getting enough water intake. I still most each at least 2x daily, and more on the weekends when I'm home during the day.
-------------

In response to Connie, given what we know of the mechanics of pyramiding so far (which I'll admit is still not that much), I personally do not feel stress is a huge factor. While not entirely conclusive, there seems to be pretty substantial evidence that humidity is the major contributing factor. One study already has indicated that improper diet has little to do with it. It certainly seems to be an environmental issue. That said, I suppose one could make the argument that enough stress could induce a tortoise to spend all of its time in hiding, possibly in a location where humidity is low. But even then...I think this would be unlikely. In captivity, we can control the environment for the tortoise, so stress or not, maintaining proper humidity is moot. In the wild, stress would induce the tortoise to find the most secure, familiar place possible, which would be its burrow (likely to be very humid). While again, it is not conclusive that every single tortoise in the wild doesn't have pyramiding, no wild tortoise has been documented with pyramiding. Ergo...the hypothesis that stress in wild tortoises could cause pyramiding is a stretch as well.


----------



## Connie

StudentoftheReptile said:


> This is just my understanding of it....perhaps I'm wrong; someone feel free to correct me if that's the case.
> 
> Just taking into account all that's been laid on the table about humidity and hydration, this thread and others like it, Tom's recountings of his talks with Tomas, the "Scientific Studies pt 1" thread, etc...I would think that regular misting would have a greater effect on preventing pyramiding than just soaking would. It seems to me it has a lot to do with that water getting into the cracks between the scutes as well as water running down the carapace when misted. High humidity in the environment does this as well as misting (in nature, this may come from the morning dew collecting on the shell and rainfall, too).
> 
> Just sticking the tortoise in water up to its chin wouldn't do a whole lot for preventing pyramiding in my opinion. Perhaps my method/definition of proper soaking technique differs from others, but given what I said above, unless you're submerging the tortoises entirely underwater to make sure all areas of the carapace (where pyramiding typically occurs!) gets good and wet and dripping, I don't think it gets the same effect. [and I'm NOT implying anyone should completely submerge their tortoise underwater! The statement was rhetorical.]
> 
> Now I'm not saying anyone shouldn't soak their tortoises. I mean, I still do mine, but I do it more for hydration purposes, to ensure they're getting enough water intake. I still most each at least 2x daily, and more on the weekends when I'm home during the day.
> -------------
> 
> In response to Connie, given what we know of the mechanics of pyramiding so far (which I'll admit is still not that much), I personally do not feel stress is a huge factor. While not entirely conclusive, there seems to be pretty substantial evidence that humidity is the major contributing factor. One study already has indicated that improper diet has little to do with it. It certainly seems to be an environmental issue. That said, I suppose one could make the argument that enough stress could induce a tortoise to spend all of its time in hiding, possibly in a location where humidity is low. But even then...I think this would be unlikely. In captivity, we can control the environment for the tortoise, so stress or not, maintaining proper humidity is moot. In the wild, stress would induce the tortoise to find the most secure, familiar place possible, which would be its burrow (likely to be very humid). While again, it is not conclusive that every single tortoise in the wild doesn't have pyramiding, no wild tortoise has been documented with pyramiding. Ergo...the hypothesis that stress in wild tortoises could cause pyramiding is a stretch as well.







Connie said:


> StudentoftheReptile said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is just my understanding of it....perhaps I'm wrong; someone feel free to correct me if that's the case.
> 
> Just taking into account all that's been laid on the table about humidity and hydration, this thread and others like it, Tom's recountings of his talks with Tomas, the "Scientific Studies pt 1" thread, etc...I would think that regular misting would have a greater effect on preventing pyramiding than just soaking would. It seems to me it has a lot to do with that water getting into the cracks between the scutes as well as water running down the carapace when misted. High humidity in the environment does this as well as misting (in nature, this may come from the morning dew collecting on the shell and rainfall, too).
> 
> Just sticking the tortoise in water up to its chin wouldn't do a whole lot for preventing pyramiding in my opinion. Perhaps my method/definition of proper soaking technique differs from others, but given what I said above, unless you're submerging the tortoises entirely underwater to make sure all areas of the carapace (where pyramiding typically occurs!) gets good and wet and dripping, I don't think it gets the same effect. [and I'm NOT implying anyone should completely submerge their tortoise underwater! The statement was rhetorical.]
> 
> Now I'm not saying anyone shouldn't soak their tortoises. I mean, I still do mine, but I do it more for hydration purposes, to ensure they're getting enough water intake. I still most each at least 2x daily, and more on the weekends when I'm home during the day.
> -------------
> 
> In response to Connie, given what we know of the mechanics of pyramiding so far (which I'll admit is still not that much), I personally do not feel stress is a huge factor. While not entirely conclusive, there seems to be pretty substantial evidence that humidity is the major contributing factor. One study already has indicated that improper diet has little to do with it. It certainly seems to be an environmental issue. That said, I suppose one could make the argument that enough stress could induce a tortoise to spend all of its time in hiding, possibly in a location where humidity is low. But even then...I think this would be unlikely. In captivity, we can control the environment for the tortoise, so stress or not, maintaining proper humidity is moot. In the wild, stress would induce the tortoise to find the most secure, familiar place possible, which would be its burrow (likely to be very humid). While again, it is not conclusive that every single tortoise in the wild doesn't have pyramiding, no wild tortoise has been documented with pyramiding. Ergo...the hypothesis that stress in wild tortoises could cause pyramiding is a stretch as well.
> Just the fact that we handle the animal is stress to that animal.These tortoises aren't domesticated animals, though we would like to think that... In captivity we control the environment, in the wild no one controls the environment, they are at the mercy of mother nature... Mother nature isn't as kind as all of you on this forum...Reading the posts I see everyone takes great care in seeing that their tortoises get the best of food and treatment--> You think then the opposite would be true-->smoother shells in captivity. Why do dessert tortoises in the wild and as stated red foots who I read ALSO live in the grasslands(dry) don't pyramod in the wild ,but in captivity they do? Just the Stress of being in captivity can do alot of biological things to the system to screw it up..........
Click to expand...





Just the fact that we handle the animal is stress to that animal.These tortoises aren't domesticated animals, though we would like to think that... In captivity we control the environment, in the wild no one controls the environment, they are at the mercy of mother nature... Mother nature isn't as kind as all of you on this forum...Reading the posts I see everyone takes great care in seeing that their tortoises get the best of food and treatment--> You think then the opposite would be true-->smoother shells in captivity. Why do dessert tortoises in the wild and as stated red foots who I read ALSO live in the grasslands(dry) don't pyramid in the wild ,but in captivity they do? Just the Stress of being in captivity can do alot of biological things to the system to screw it up..........

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/newreply.php?tid=15137&pid=373153#ixzz1iGjOL4Eu


----------



## BrinnANDTorts

> Just the fact that we handle the animal is stress to that animal.These tortoises aren't domesticated animals, though we would like to think that... In captivity we control the environment, in the wild no one controls the environment, they are at the mercy of mother nature... Mother nature isn't as kind as all of you on this forum...Reading the posts I see everyone takes great care in seeing that their tortoises get the best of food and treatment--> You think then the opposite would be true-->smoother shells in captivity. Why do dessert tortoises in the wild and as stated red foots who I read ALSO live in the grasslands(dry) don't pyramid in the wild ,but in captivity they do? Just the Stress of being in captivity can do alot of biological things to the system to screw it up..........
> 
> Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/newreply.php?tid=15137&pid=373153#ixzz1iGjOL4Eu



Wild Sulcata hatchlings are not dry in the least. They have been seen in marshes and they live in very , very ,very humid burrows for the first years of their life 
read more at 
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Wild-Baby-Sulcatas#axzz1iHkwtmMb
Have you also seen these threads 
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-End-Of-Pyramiding-II-The-Leopards#axzz1iHkwtmMb

I find it very hard to believe that stress causes pyramiding when if I tortoise is raised wet (like this thread shows) it grows perfectly smooth and thats with handling my tortoise all the time. Where as I promise you that if you were to raise a tortoise dry and never touch it at all it would pyramid, like all of them do raise this way. 
Without daily squirting and humidity 



StudentoftheReptile said:


> This is just my understanding of it....perhaps I'm wrong; someone feel free to correct me if that's the case.
> 
> Just taking into account all that's been laid on the table about humidity and hydration, this thread and others like it, Tom's recountings of his talks with Tomas, the "Scientific Studies pt 1" thread, etc...I would think that regular misting would have a greater effect on preventing pyramiding than just soaking would. It seems to me it has a lot to do with that water getting into the cracks between the scutes as well as water running down the carapace when misted. High humidity in the environment does this as well as misting (in nature, this may come from the morning dew collecting on the shell and rainfall, too).
> 
> Just sticking the tortoise in water up to its chin wouldn't do a whole lot for preventing pyramiding in my opinion. Perhaps my method/definition of proper soaking technique differs from others, but given what I said above, unless you're submerging the tortoises entirely underwater to make sure all areas of the carapace (where pyramiding typically occurs!) gets good and wet and dripping, I don't think it gets the same effect. [and I'm NOT implying anyone should completely submerge their tortoise underwater! The statement was rhetorical.]
> 
> Now I'm not saying anyone shouldn't soak their tortoises. I mean, I still do mine, but I do it more for hydration purposes, to ensure they're getting enough water intake. I still most each at least 2x daily, and more on the weekends when I'm home during the day.



Thank you this was very informative !!  I am going to start squirting him a lot more 



> Hi Yvonne,
> I also read that red foots can be found in forests (wet or damp most of the time?) but in grass lands(dry). I know nothing of any other "Breed" of tortoises for I just gotr my "Ruby" and and trying hard to find out as much as I can about red foots.
> I want her to be healthy and happy but I also know that Stress can play havic on any living creature, humans included. It can lead to all sorts of disorders.. I know feather picking in birds (I have 4 parrots and 6 finches)only occurs in captive bred birds. Stress, diet and boredom plays a major there.....



Your Redfoot needs high humidity , but the substrate itself should not be very wet because Redfoots are extremely prone to shell rot where as I can keep Gupta ( my sulcata ) in a swamp and he wont get shell rot. Misting your Redfoot's shell daily is also really important 
Here is a really good caresheet about raising them smoothly and what they should need ect. 
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Raising-REDFOOT-Hatchling-to-Adults-Do-s-Don-t-s#axzz1iHsnqOsi
Only thing with this care sheet is I would provide more UVB lighting than it suggests to make sure your little tortoise doesn't get MBD. Supplements with Calcium and D3 vitamin also will really help.
This is off topic so I won't post any more about it but you can go to the red foot section and ask lots of questions . The people on this forum are very , very intelligent and experienced. Thats where all my info comes from



yoda06 said:


> Hi, just a quick one, is this an mediterranean/African spur-theighed??



I'm not quite sure what you mean by that because when you say mediterranean /spur theighed that could very well be a greek tortoise (more likely because greeks are Mediterranean) but African Spur theighed tortoises is most likey a Sulcata (their scientific name)
When you combine them I am not sure, also are just asking what species of tortoise we are talking about or do you have a tortoise that you don't know what species is ?


----------



## Connie

BrinnANDGupta said:


> Just the fact that we handle the animal is stress to that animal.These tortoises aren't domesticated animals, though we would like to think that... In captivity we control the environment, in the wild no one controls the environment, they are at the mercy of mother nature... Mother nature isn't as kind as all of you on this forum...Reading the posts I see everyone takes great care in seeing that their tortoises get the best of food and treatment--> You think then the opposite would be true-->smoother shells in captivity. Why do dessert tortoises in the wild and as stated red foots who I read ALSO live in the grasslands(dry) don't pyramid in the wild ,but in captivity they do? Just the Stress of being in captivity can do alot of biological things to the system to screw it up..........
> 
> Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/newreply.php?tid=15137&pid=373153#ixzz1iGjOL4Eu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wild Sulcata hatchlings are not dry in the least. They have been seen in marshes and they live in very , very ,very humid burrows for the first years of their life
> read more at
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Wild-Baby-Sulcatas#axzz1iHkwtmMb
> Have you also seen these threads
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-End-Of-Pyramiding-II-The-Leopards#axzz1iHkwtmMb
> 
> I find it very hard to believe that stress causes pyramiding when if I tortoise is raised wet (like this thread shows) it grows perfectly smooth and thats with handling my tortoise all the time. Where as I promise you that if you were to raise a tortoise dry and never touch it at all it would pyramid, like all of them do raise this way.
> Without daily squirting and humidity
> 
> 
> 
> StudentoftheReptile said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is just my understanding of it....perhaps I'm wrong; someone feel free to correct me if that's the case.
> 
> Just taking into account all that's been laid on the table about humidity and hydration, this thread and others like it, Tom's recountings of his talks with Tomas, the "Scientific Studies pt 1" thread, etc...I would think that regular misting would have a greater effect on preventing pyramiding than just soaking would. It seems to me it has a lot to do with that water getting into the cracks between the scutes as well as water running down the carapace when misted. High humidity in the environment does this as well as misting (in nature, this may come from the morning dew collecting on the shell and rainfall, too).
> 
> Just sticking the tortoise in water up to its chin wouldn't do a whole lot for preventing pyramiding in my opinion. Perhaps my method/definition of proper soaking technique differs from others, but given what I said above, unless you're submerging the tortoises entirely underwater to make sure all areas of the carapace (where pyramiding typically occurs!) gets good and wet and dripping, I don't think it gets the same effect. [and I'm NOT implying anyone should completely submerge their tortoise underwater! The statement was rhetorical.]
> 
> Now I'm not saying anyone shouldn't soak their tortoises. I mean, I still do mine, but I do it more for hydration purposes, to ensure they're getting enough water intake. I still most each at least 2x daily, and more on the weekends when I'm home during the day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you this was very informative !!  I am going to start squirting him a lot more
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Yvonne,
> I also read that red foots can be found in forests (wet or damp most of the time?) but in grass lands(dry). I know nothing of any other "Breed" of tortoises for I just gotr my "Ruby" and and trying hard to find out as much as I can about red foots.
> I want her to be healthy and happy but I also know that Stress can play havic on any living creature, humans included. It can lead to all sorts of disorders.. I know feather picking in birds (I have 4 parrots and 6 finches)only occurs in captive bred birds. Stress, diet and boredom plays a major there.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your Redfoot needs high humidity , but the substrate itself should not be very wet because Redfoots are extremely prone to shell rot where as I can keep Gupta ( my sulcata ) in a swamp and he wont get shell rot. Misting your Redfoot's shell daily is also really important
> Here is a really good caresheet about raising them smoothly and what they should need ect.
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Raising-REDFOOT-Hatchling-to-Adults-Do-s-Don-t-s#axzz1iHsnqOsi
> Only thing with this care sheet is I would provide more UVB lighting than it suggests to make sure your little tortoise doesn't get MBD. Supplements with Calcium and D3 vitamin also will really help.
> This is off topic so I won't post any more about it but you can go to the red foot section and ask lots of questions . The people on this forum are very , very intelligent and experienced. Thats where all my info comes from
> 
> 
> 
> yoda06 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, just a quick one, is this an mediterranean/African spur-theighed??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not quite sure what you mean by that because when you say mediterranean /spur theighed that could very well be a greek tortoise (more likely because greeks are Mediterranean) but African Spur theighed tortoises is most likey a Sulcata (their scientific name)
> When you combine them I am not sure, also are just asking what species of tortoise we are talking about or do you have a tortoise that you don't know what species is ?
Click to expand...








Isn't not being properly " Hydrated" a form of stress to the animal. Isn't lack of exercise a form of stress to the body?. It is a known fact (for humans at least) exercise helps build strong bones. Get your kids off the computer and have them play outside in the sun!
I read at the World Chelonian Trust that:"That tortoises have access to microclimates that we cannot provide and Even tortoises that would have little contact with water in the wild MUST have it in captivity". That stresses the animal--not having these "Microclimates" so we compensate with soaking . spraying, etc??? I guess it does help and does do the trick for some. From what I see and read not all.. Some can deal with stress better than others, just lke people...


----------



## Tom

BrinnANDGupta said:


> Should I just make him stay in his soaks and not worry about the pooping and go back to squirting him a lot?



Short answer: Yes, in my opinion you should.

Longer answer: The shell spraying thing is an idea that I got from Terry K who told me to call Richard Fife and ask him about it for sulcatas and leopards. Terry had been doing it for redfoots for many years with stunning results. Terry O used the technique with her redfoot, Pio, with PERFECT results. Richard Fife told me he had been doing it with sulcatas and leopards for a while, and the results were very promising. I have also had great results with it, and Ana's "Scientific Studies Part I" thread gave me my a good explanation of WHY it works. I think what the humidity does is keep them from dehydrating as quickly and it keeps those crevices in their scute margins from drying out as quickly too.





Connie said:


> With all the "theories" out there---is one fact certain?-->That wild tortoises all have smoothe shells?? The problem is that capitives are the only ones with this pyamiding problem?? Could this all be STRESS related to the captive animal??????



Hi Connie. Welcome to the discussion. I have two reasons why I think it is not stress related to pyramiding, or that it plays a very minor role.
1. Captivity is a LOT less stressful than wild living.
2. I can take two of groups clutchmates and raise them side by side in two separate, but identical enclosures in the same room. If one group gets the wet routine and the other group gets the dry routine, all the wet ones will grow smooth and all the dry ones will pyramid. Same diet, same exercise level, same stress level, same amount of sunshine or UV, same level of human interaction, same everything except moisture, humidity and hydration.


----------



## Sammy

Tom's #2, before I joined this forum, saw this experiment on the web (not forum). A guy took 2 batches of his tortoises, everything the same except, one is in a dry enclosure and other wet. The results = wet one all smooth. Dunno if I can find it again. 

I think cause Artificial light & heat is very drying, so we need to give extra humidity too. While I soak my tortoises, I'd soak a thin piece of tissue and place it on their shell. Like a hydrating mask for 30 mins with the soak. They don't seem to notice it. That plus spraying and a humidifier, they still look a bit dry and red foot is a bit bumpy.


----------



## BrinnANDTorts

Sammy said:


> Tom's #2, before I joined this forum, saw this experiment on the web (not forum). A guy took 2 batches of his tortoises, everything the same except, one is in a dry enclosure and other wet. The results = wet one all smooth. Dunno if I can find it again.
> 
> I think cause Artificial light & heat is very drying, so we need to give extra humidity too. While I soak my tortoises, I'd soak a thin piece of tissue and place it on their shell. Like a hydrating mask for 30 mins with the soak. They don't seem to notice it. That plus spraying and a humidifier, they still look a bit dry and red foot is a bit bumpy.





That tissue thing is a seriously awesome idea, I might use a very small rag though because its much sturdier 



yoda06 said:


> Sorry, what type of tort is yours?? Our are Greek spur-theighed!!



Sulcata tortoise  also known as African Spurred Tortoise 
I also have Ibera Greeks too 



Tom said:


> BrinnANDGupta said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should I just make him stay in his soaks and not worry about the pooping and go back to squirting him a lot?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Short answer: Yes, in my opinion you should.
> 
> Longer answer: The shell spraying thing is an idea that I got from Terry K who told me to call Richard Fife and ask him about it for sulcatas and leopards. Terry had been doing it for redfoots for many years with stunning results. Terry O used the technique with her redfoot, Pio, with PERFECT results. Richard Fife told me he had been doing it with sulcatas and leopards for a while, and the results were very promising. I have also had great results with it, and Ana's "Scientific Studies Part I" thread gave me my a good explanation of WHY it works. I think what the humidity does is keep them from dehydrating as quickly and it keeps those crevices in their scute margins from drying out as quickly too.
Click to expand...


Awww thank you , I'm glad I asked this question. I will go back to making him soak and spraying him a lot more


----------



## Sammy

The 'hydrating mask soak' thing, I use a kitchen towel tissue it's more durable. Drape the tissue over the sides into the water, it absorbs and keeps the tissue very wet. I try to hydrate them at every opportunity, heat lights so drying. Summer no need these and tortoises don't look dry.


----------



## BrinnANDTorts

Sammy said:


> The 'hydrating mask soak' thing, I use a kitchen towel tissue it's more durable. Drape the tissue over the sides into the water, it absorbs and keeps the tissue very wet. I try to hydrate them at every opportunity, heat lights so drying. Summer no need these and tortoises don't look dry.



Thanks for the tip


----------



## Bow

The Hermann's tortoise I'm getting in a matter of days has pyramiding. I'm going to try this and see if his new growth comes in smooth. Great work!


----------



## Katherine

Sammy said:


> The 'hydrating mask soak' thing, I use a kitchen towel tissue it's more durable. Drape the tissue over the sides into the water, it absorbs and keeps the tissue very wet. I try to hydrate them at every opportunity, heat lights so drying. Summer no need these and tortoises don't look dry.



I also use a wet paper towel drape in the winter months, seems effective.


----------



## Sammy

Only while bathing time or when they're sleeping too? I am worried about shell rot?


----------



## BrinnANDTorts

Sammy said:


> Only while bathing time or when they're sleeping too? I am worried about shell rot?



You have a redfoot(I believe) and it will get shell rot very easily for some reason. Where as it would take a lot to give my sullies shell rot, I mean pretty bad husbandry conditions


----------



## Sammy

My red foot (Tor Tor) is so dry, shell is looking a bit bumpy too. She needs alot of humidity and I read on this forum red foots gets shell rot more than others. So I have to be very careful.


----------



## BrinnANDTorts

Sammy said:


> My red foot (Tor Tor) is so dry, shell is looking a bit bumpy too. She needs alot of humidity and I read on this forum red foots gets shell rot more than others. So I have to be very careful.



Many people told me that to keep up humidity without having wet substrate for a redfoot you need to use under tank heat cables plugged into a rheostat to make sure they don't get to hot. I would get a 100 watt one , cause I got a 50 and it didnt do much and wasn't long at all. Then u can have a layer of really wet substrate under a layer of dry substrate the cable heats the water up and evaporates it creating humidity. You need to cover the top of the cage to make sure it doesn't escape. I just dig a little hole to the bottom of the enclosure in different places in the enclosure and pour water into the lower half of the substrate to make it wet. 
Here are some threads about it 
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Heat-Mat-and-Heat-Cable-wattage
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-how-wet-is-too-wet--37232


----------



## Sammy

Thanks so much, I will follow that


----------



## Connie

From all the posts I read spraying the shell seems to be a great idea-->keep the shell moist.I am going to be doing that . My redfoot is slightly bumpy when I got her. I guess moisture makes the shell more "flexable" so the shell can grow evenly and nicely, at least that is what I get from it. 
What about those moisturizers for the tortoises and turtles they sell. They claim it makes the shell and hinges flexable. I also saw a breeder on utube use olive oil to make the shell shine and be "flexable".
ANY WOMAN knows moisturizers and oils holds in the moisture on skin and makes the skin flexable and smooth. Wouldn't this help to make the shell grow evenly also because you are holding in the moisture and making the shell flexable to grow evenly???
One other thing I would like to ask, everwhere I read that to feed a red foot protein once a week because more(Too much protein) might cause pyramiding. Let's just say for arguements sake, You give it a piece of chicken, instead of giving the tortoise one chunk once a week, why not divide that one chunk into 7 pieces and give it every day, wouldn't that make the shell grow more evenly?? I know protein repairs also and giving it every day because repairs are made by the body every day. Repairs don't wait for that "protein day".... Why is that a good or not good idea?? You are giving the same amount of protein , but in small steady amounts... BTW How much Protein should I give my Ruby. She is 5 inches long and weighs 15 oz???


----------



## StudentoftheReptile

Connie said:


> From all the posts I read spraying the shell seems to be a great idea-->keep the shell moist.I am going to be doing that . My redfoot is slightly bumpy when I got her. I guess moisture makes the shell more "flexable" so the shell can grow evenly and nicely, at least that is what I get from it.



If you haven't already, here's a good thread that better explains the mechanics of chelonian shell growth and what happens when each scute adds a new ring of growth. 

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Scientific-Papers-pt-1#axzz1iWGmC300

I'm not sure "flexible" is the most accurate term to apply. I think of it more akin to a stone worn smooth after years of being in a streambed of running water.


----------



## ShadowRancher

Sammy said:


> The 'hydrating mask soak' thing, I use a kitchen towel tissue it's more durable. Drape the tissue over the sides into the water, it absorbs and keeps the tissue very wet. I try to hydrate them at every opportunity, heat lights so drying. Summer no need these and tortoises don't look dry.



I do the same thing, have been for a couple of weeks now. Before I was constantly pouring water over his back to keep it moist during a soak...then one night I was setting the table, looked over into the living room where he was soaking then back at my paper napkin and lightbulb, duh  you're right it's nice bc it constantly wicks, it's basically the same as spraying except it holds the water there for a bit.

Also glad my scientific papers thread wasn't completely unintelligible  I was so excited about tortoise related papers that I just wrote down everything and left the important bit at the end...glad some people slogged through and found it useful!


----------



## Sammy

I use to sit there pouring water over her back too, then I'd have a hydrating mask for myself. I thought, yeah let's give them one ttooi

I use to sit there pouring water over their shell during their soak too, for half an hour. Then I'd give myself a hydrating mask, as I was lying there all relaxed I thought 'why not? We can all have one at the same time' : D

Sorry I thought I lost the first one, duplicated it


----------



## Tom

I have too many babies to sit there and put a little napkin on each one during the soak, plus they would pull them off of each other while they were crawling around in the soak. So here's another alternative. Soak them in a shoe box. Get their carapace's wet and then keep the lid on the box during the soak. Mine don't dry off this way even during a long soak.


----------



## Sammy

Hi Tom,

Close the lid completely? Give them a sauna


----------



## BrinnANDTorts

how do you keep the water from getting cold ? When you say long i assume you mean around an hour... thats how long I soak


----------



## Tom

Sammy said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> Close the lid completely? Give them a sauna



Yes. There is plenty of air in there since none of those lids are air tight, and this eliminates evaporation. Keeps the water warmer longer too.





BrinnANDGupta said:


> how do you keep the water from getting cold ? When you say long i assume you mean around an hour... thats how long I soak



This is usually not an issue for me since my reptile room is always 80-85, but I have used heating pads, sunshine through a window (very carefully on this one), heat lamps and the plain old "just dump some out and add more warm water" method too.


----------



## marcy4hope

so how do your two guys look now tom? would love to see new photos.


----------



## Tom

Way back on page 32, post number 472, I did an update. They look about the same as that only a little bigger now. I'll do some more updates soon.


----------



## wellington

Now you no by now, I fully trust and believe the knowledge you have, the way you raise your torts and that I am trying to do the same with my leopard. But if you are going to tell me that your torts drink from water bottles, well, I give up. I could never even begin to know how to do that.
They look great Tom, and i love the enclosure they are in. Did you ever get any plants to live in that area without being fried


----------



## Kristina

My tortoises insist on drinking only Swiss water from champagne glasses


----------



## dmmj

Evian for mine


----------



## Tom

wellington said:


> Now you no by now, I fully trust and believe the knowledge you have, the way you raise your torts and that I am trying to do the same with my leopard. But if you are going to tell me that your torts drink from water bottles, well, I give up. I could never even begin to know how to do that.
> They look great Tom, and i love the enclosure they are in. Did you ever get any plants to live in that area without being fried



Because the picture is so many pages back, it took me a minute to figure out what the heck you were talking about... Hahaha. 

Their whole pen is full of nice green grass and weeds right now. It always sprouts nicely in the winter. I'll get a pic up as soon as I get a chance...


----------



## Tom

UPDATE: Here are some pics I took today. Last time I weighed them Trey was around 1100 grams and Tuck was around 1400. They continue to do well and they are outside for at least a little while almost every day. In the next few weeks they will move outside permanently.


----------



## Connie

Tom said:


> UPDATE: Here are some pics I took today. Last time I weighed them Trey was around 1100 grams and Tuck was around 1400. They continue to do well and they are outside for at least a little while almost every day. In the next few weeks they will move outside permanently.



Very NICE looking tortises!!!


----------



## Tom

Connie said:


> Very NICE looking tortises!!!



Thank you Connie.


----------



## kbaker

Kristina said:


> My tortoises insist on drinking only Swiss water from champagne glasses



That's because I told them not to make it easy for their new mother!!


----------



## luvmysulcata

Tom said:


> I thought a lot about what to name this thread. I intend for it to go on for several years, so I had to pick something fitting. So be careful how you reply to this thread, as it will be read by many for a long time to come.
> 
> One way or another, the following will be one more nail in the coffin for pyramiding in our captive raised tortoises. Either these babies will grow smooth or they won't. If they do grow smooth then we will all know that humidity and hydration is the key. If they don't grow smooth, then we will know that there is more to it than just humidity and hydration and further experimentation will be necessary. It is my goal to end pyramiding forever. Credit must be given to Richard Fife as the one who put this idea in my head. This is his discovery. I'm only testing his theory here, in public view.
> 
> I will post pics here of all milestones and at least monthly, so that everyone can watch their growth. I'll use the same scale and tape measure on the same counter to keep it all consistent.
> 
> I'll be raising these new babies the same way, with the same diet, the same set-up, same temps, in the same room, on the same ranch, with the same outdoor sunning enclosures, the same supplements in the same quantities, as their parents, my older, pyramided ones. The only thing different will be humidity and hydration. They'll get daily warm water soaks, frequent carapace mistings, damp substrate, humid hide boxes and drinking water always available. Outdoors, their sunning/exercise enclosures will get a thorough wet down each time I put them in there.
> 
> This is Mr. Man. Pipped on 5-15-2010. He's still in the brood box absorbing the remainder of his yolk sac.
> My digital caliper decided to stop working despite battery replacement so I'm having to estimate length using a tape measure. He's right around 5cm and 35 grams.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is Dimple. He started trying to bust out of his shell on 5-12-2010. I helped him get through the leathery inner membrane on 5-14-2010 and he stuck his head out on 5-16-2010. He's also 5cm, but only 32 grams. He's much less active than Mr. Man at this point. He's also still absorbing his yolk sack.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here they are together in the brood box with the lid removed. Room temp is 80-85. Their enclosure is ready for them, I'm just waiting for them to absorb the rest of their yolk sacks and start eating.



Beautiful!! smooth shells! 



dmarcus said:


> Sulcatifornia said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello everyone, I'm a new member, I found this forum through google searches about tortoises and it's helped us alot. This thread especially has caught my interest and I have a question for everyone. I've never had tortoises before and I now have 3 baby sulcata, I plan on choosing 1 and eventually adopting out the other 2. I have no information about them from before they've been with me but I believe they're only a few months old. I'm wondering if any of you can tell if their carapaces are pyramiding?
> 
> Thanx so much!
> Alyssa
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello Alyssa and welcome.
> 
> All three of them look good no pyramiding, smooth as they should be..
Click to expand...


How old are yours and how much do they weigh? Mine weighs 61 grams and the guy i got her from says shes a year old how much is a year old supposed to weigh do you know?


----------



## Tom

At a year old they should be somewhere between 500 and 1000 grams.


----------



## Texastravis

Nice thread. I read the first couple pages and looked at pics inbetween and I am not suprised at all by the results. The whole notion of "controlling growth" for pyramiding prevention is a crock of old ideology. Humidiy is without a doubt the answer. I have 2 redfoots who are terribly pyramided and they were slow grown good diet under low humidy conditions.

Couple Aldabras I picked up as babies had already noticable pyramiding, the distributor kept them on hay. Now after being in my care for over a year on wet cypress mulch and frequent sprays, the tortoises have packed on about 3 inches of smooth growth. 

I wish this test would have had 4 tortoises: 2 with identical high humidty but different diets and 2 with low humidy and different diets. The difference in diets would be total protein intake. That would definately put an end to the arguement.


----------



## jasmine_1234321

Actually the prettiest torts I've seen !  
Xxxx


----------



## Tom

Texastravis said:


> Nice thread. I read the first couple pages and looked at pics inbetween and I am not suprised at all by the results. The whole notion of "controlling growth" for pyramiding prevention is a crock of old ideology. Humidiy is without a doubt the answer. I have 2 redfoots who are terribly pyramided and they were slow grown good diet under low humidy conditions.
> 
> Couple Aldabras I picked up as babies had already noticable pyramiding, the distributor kept them on hay. Now after being in my care for over a year on wet cypress mulch and frequent sprays, the tortoises have packed on about 3 inches of smooth growth.
> 
> I wish this test would have had 4 tortoises: 2 with identical high humidty but different diets and 2 with low humidy and different diets. The difference in diets would be total protein intake. That would definately put an end to the arguement.



TexasTravis, there are many people who still disagree with you. I am not one of them.

Farther into the thread somewhere, I explain that my current adults were raised just as you say you wish I had currently done. They were raised in the same pens on the same ranch with the same foods, etc... The only difference was wet vs. dry. Well you've seen the results on these new "wet routine" babies, but my adult males are 14 years old somewhat pyramided and only around 60 pounds. I tried the slow growth idea and it resulted in small stunted tortoises that still pyramided because it was too dry. Meanwhile we have a few leopards and sulcatas here on the forum that are growing like a bad weed, but totally smooth because they are hydrated and kept humid.

The evidence is just overwhelming now...





jasmine_1234321 said:


> Actually the prettiest torts I've seen !
> Xxxx



Thank you.


----------



## manuetaaz

Great thread, thank you for sharing! I have 2 young hermanns and trying to do the same, although probably not as wet. Mistings several times a day, humidity around 60% and basking light on top of their water and humid hide. They are now around 5 months+ so we'll see how it goes. My older hermann is pyramided even though he was fed weeds only with the usual calcium-vitamins supplements (They all came to me relatively smooth at 3 months old).
We'll see how it goes...


----------



## Yvonne G

manuetaaz said:


> Great thread, thank you for sharing! I have 2 young hermanns and trying to do the same, although probably not as wet. Mistings several times a day, humidity around 60% and basking light on top of their water and humid hide. They are now around 5 months+ so we'll see how it goes. My older hermann is pyramided even though he was fed weeds only with the usual calcium-vitamins supplements (They all came to me relatively smooth at 3 months old).
> We'll see how it goes...



Hi manuetaaz:

Won't you take a few moments to start a new thread in the "introductions" section and tell us a bit about yourself?


----------



## Jacob

They Look Great Tom!


----------



## tortle

What happened to Tulee?




Tom said:


> UPDATE: Here are some pics I took today. Last time I weighed them Trey was around 1100 grams and Tuck was around 1400. They continue to do well and they are outside for at least a little while almost every day. In the next few weeks they will move outside permanently.


----------



## Tom

I gave Tulee to another member who had lost her hatchling due to the typical "kept too dry" syndrome. The lady did a few posts showing how happy she was, and then promptly disappeared from the forum. Attempts to contact her have failed. Once she answered her phone and told me I had a wrong number before hanging up on me. I suspect her dog killed it or something bad happened and she just didn't want to face the group with it.


----------



## jaizei

oops...wrong button.


----------



## expo tort

How has this not made stickies yet?


----------



## t9dragon

I am sure it was mentioned somewhere in the 37 pages of this thread but can pyramiding be stopped once it has begun?


----------



## StudentoftheReptile

t9dragon said:


> I am sure it was mentioned somewhere in the 37 pages of this thread but can pyramiding be stopped once it has begun?



Yes, it can be stopped, or halted, once the tortoise is receiving optimal care (high humidity and proper temps, lots of natural sunshine, etc.). It cannot be reversed, but once the new growth comes in, as the years go by, the old "pyramided" growth will become less and less noticeable.


----------



## t9dragon

I found this tortoise here locally and the owner said it was 2yrs old and 7 inches long but it has bad pyramiding..







Here is it's pen...


----------



## StudentoftheReptile

t9dragon said:


> I found this tortoise here locally and the owner said it was 2yrs old and 7 inches long but it has bad pyramiding..



Nearly everything about that habitat is incorrect: dry open air, low humidity, dry, loose substrate, a water bowl that is difficult to get into, not sure what the rectangular box or the red cup for. Not sure what the temps are either, but everything else I mentioned needs to be changed if you want halt that pyramiding. [I'm assuming of course, based on your last post, that you have now acquired this tortoise, correct?]

Read this entire thread, and you'll understand. 

Also, check most of the links in this thread: Helpful Threads

Beginner Mistakes

Here's how my sulcata is housed outdoors. If this is feasible, you may want to consider this option. Yours is large enough, and if your climate is right, natural sunshine will do wonders.

And finally, check out the thread in my signature. Its how I set-up my redfoots, but its very similar to how one can set-up a juvenile sulcata.


----------



## t9dragon

Nope, I don't own the tortoise.. I was thinking about it but the wife would kill me if I brought another reptile home.. I am picking up 3 female and 1 male Russian torts this weekend along with 2 baby Halmahera skinks..


----------



## StudentoftheReptile

Oh ok gotcha.


----------



## t9dragon

I just hate seeing reptiles kept improperly...


----------



## StudentoftheReptile

I don't think anyone (or least anyone here) likes seeing them that way.


----------



## brandi2546

Hey...Although I have had tons of different animals in my life, I am new to this tortoise thing. I just want whatever advice, comments, etc anyone can give me. I am just concerned that my tortoise is starting to look different. I am not sure if he is starting to pyramid or what. He has a UVB bulb and heat bulb on 12 hours a day and goes outside almost everyday and get sun at least 20 minutes too. I dust his food with calcium at least 3 times a week. I will attach pictures of when I got him (June 15th, 2012) and now. Please ask all the questions you want and tell me what you think. Anything you can tell me will be appreciated


----------



## Tom

He looks okay to me. What are your four temps and what is your hydration routine?


----------



## brandi2546

Tom said:


> He looks okay to me. What are your four temps and what is your hydration routine?



His basking spot was 85, but that bulb just died...after only 3 months, so I am trying to adjust the height of the new one to the same. We keep our house set at 78 degrees, so that is what the cooler area is. He has a house to go in on the opposite end of the cage. His substrate is 80% top soil/20% sand. He also has stones in their for a different texture (I have heard it keeps them from being so bored). I soak him 4 times a week and mist him at least once a day and mist the substrate near the basking spot to increase humidity. He also has a Rubbermaid top with water he can get in all the time. I was concerned because they guy I bought him from said I didn't need a UVB bulb, based on the research he has done. I do have one for him, so that can't be an issue. So then I wondered if I was over feeding because I read that you should not feed them every single day because they are not active enough & I always feed him every day. Thanks so much, Tom. Every website says something different and I really respect your opinions.


----------



## Tom

Here are my preferences:
Basking spot should be closer to 100.
If your house stays 78 in the winter too, you will be fine. If not, add a CHE and a thermostat to maintain night temps.
I would not use any sand in the substrate. Plain topsoil should be fine.
They don't need UV bulbs if they are getting sunshine every day. What sort of UV bulb are you using?


----------



## brandi2546

Tom said:


> Here are my preferences:
> Basking spot should be closer to 100.
> If your house stays 78 in the winter too, you will be fine. If not, add a CHE and a thermostat to maintain night temps.
> I would not use any sand in the substrate. Plain topsoil should be fine.
> They don't need UV bulbs if they are getting sunshine every day. What sort of UV bulb are you using?



It is a Repti Glo 26watt 10.0. After I put the new bulb in, it was 100, and he stayed in his house all the time. I assumed he must have thought it was too hot. I moved it higher (12 inches from the floor) and he goes under it now. We keep the house set at 68 in the winter. He has slept a lot since I got him. maybe because he is a baby??? I was worried about that because the bigger ones don't seem to sleep much. I got him June 15th and I am not sure how old he is. He weighs 58 grams now. The end of June, he weighed 38 grams...so 20 grams he gained in 2 months. Is that good? I just read so many different things.


----------



## Tom

Is your repti-glo one of the coil type CFL bulbs? Those can damage tortoise eyes. He's not hiding from the heat. He's hiding because that bulb hurts his eyes. I'd shut it off right away.

What are you using for heat? My suggestion is to use a Mercury Vapor bulb or a regular incandescent flood bulb, if your tortoise gets regular sun, on a timer for 12 hours a day. Then use a Ceramic Heating Element on a thermostat to maintain the ambient temp around 80 all the time. 68 will be too cold.

I never answered you before about the feeding. In the wild they hatch during the rainy season. Its hot, humid, wet, and there is green stuff everywhere to eat all day long. I think they should be able to graze all day in our enclosures too. Outdoor sunshine and grazing on weeds and grass is best, but if you can't do that then I'd feed him a pile in the morning and another pile in the afternoon if he ate up all the morning stuff.

His growth is just a little on the slow side. Offering more food, or offering some Mazuri might pick things up a bit.


----------



## StudentoftheReptile

Yeah, those Repti-Glo CFL bulbs come in 13 watts and 26 watts, so I'm betting thats what it is. I'm with Tom; I would switch it out for a MVB or a tube florescent bulb.


----------



## brandi2546

Tom said:


> Is your repti-glo one of the coil type CFL bulbs? Those can damage tortoise eyes. He's not hiding from the heat. He's hiding because that bulb hurts his eyes. I'd shut it off right away.
> 
> What are you using for heat? My suggestion is to use a Mercury Vapor bulb or a regular incandescent flood bulb, if your tortoise gets regular sun, on a timer for 12 hours a day. Then use a Ceramic Heating Element on a thermostat to maintain the ambient temp around 80 all the time. 68 will be too cold.
> 
> I never answered you before about the feeding. In the wild they hatch during the rainy season. Its hot, humid, wet, and there is green stuff everywhere to eat all day long. I think they should be able to graze all day in our enclosures too. Outdoor sunshine and grazing on weeds and grass is best, but if you can't do that then I'd feed him a pile in the morning and another pile in the afternoon if he ate up all the morning stuff.
> 
> His growth is just a little on the slow side. Offering more food, or offering some Mazuri might pick things up a bit.



Thanks. Yes it is the coil type. He sits under the heat lamp a good bit if it is not hotter than 90. I have read that if the temp gets up to 104, they start salivating on their arms and wiping themselves to cool down. In Georgia them temps are in the 90's all summer and the guy I bought him from said he is too small to be outside all the time. He said the little guy would fry out there. I only take him out in the mornings or afternoons when it is cooler. The guy told me it didn't need to be too hot in the cage and a 50W heat bulb would be best, so that is what I had. I read a lot of good things about the Powersun that has heat and UVB in one bulb, but my husband said it would be no good if one aspect of the bulb stopped working, plus I think they are a pretty high wattage. The room my reptiles stay in is in the spare bedroom on the opposite end of the house from the a/c and is the warmest room in the house too.

When I started to get concerned about the pyramiding, my husband said it could only be that he is eating too much or growing too fast. That is good that he can eat more. I see in pictures that the light part of their shell shrinks and the dark part gets bigger, so I guess that is normal and not them pyramiding. I just weighed him and he weighs 61 grams. So 23 grams he has gained in less than 2 months. I just want to make sure his growth is slow and steady so he won't have shell issues. He usually leaves food in his bowl...and drags it around the cage. Lol. 

When he gets a few years old and big enough that a eagle can't pick him up, he will stay outside in our privacy fence and come in for the winter. We only have a 4 month winter here. 

Also, I want your input on burying something under the fence so they cannot dig under it. I talked to a breeder and he said as long as I have things for them to hide in, they won't dig. He said he hatched 200 Sulcatas a year and never had an issue with them digging.


----------



## Tom

You are getting a lot of mixed information from a lot of sources. It can all be very confusing, I know. All I can do is share with you my opinion and what I do.

The idea behind a heat lamp is to heat up one spot in the enclosure. You need to measure the temp DIRECTLY under that bulb and right around 100 works for me. 90 is not warm enough in my enclosures. At 90 mine just stay under them all day because they can't get warm enough. The idea is for them to get under or near the hot spot, warm up and then move away.

My temps are over 100 everyday here. In phoenix they are 110+ nearly all summer long. You have to build a suitable enclosure in a suitable place. There should be lots of shade available and I like to make little underground retreats for them too. Nothing beats the heat like going underground. They need sunshine and exercise. If need be you can put them out in the early morning or late afternoon when things are cooler. If predators are an issue in your area. Build a wire cover for you enclosure.

The powersun is a good bulb, but it does get hot in a small enclosure. These are really only needed for winter if your tortoise doesn't get sun for months at a time.

Slow and steady growth has nothing to do with pyramiding or not. Slow growth in a sulcata often indicates a problem. If they are kept warm, humid and hydrated, it does not matter how fast they grow. It will be smooth. If they are kept dry and dehydrated, it won't matter how slow and steady they grow, it will be slow steady pyramided growth.

In 20 years of keeping sulcatas of all ages, I have never once buried anything to keep them from digging out. Mine will occasionally try to dig, maybe once or twice a year. I just fill in the hole and put a block there for a couple of weeks and they stop trying. Most of them don't try to dig most of the time, in my experience. The bigger and more interesting the enclosure, and the better your shelter, the less likely they are to try to dig.


----------



## brandi2546

Tom said:


> You are getting a lot of mixed information from a lot of sources. It can all be very confusing, I know. All I can do is share with you my opinion and what I do.
> 
> The idea behind a heat lamp is to heat up one spot in the enclosure. You need to measure the temp DIRECTLY under that bulb and right around 100 works for me. 90 is not warm enough in my enclosures. At 90 mine just stay under them all day because they can't get warm enough. The idea is for them to get under or near the hot spot, warm up and then move away.
> 
> My temps are over 100 everyday here. In phoenix they are 110+ nearly all summer long. You have to build a suitable enclosure in a suitable place. There should be lots of shade available and I like to make little underground retreats for them too. Nothing beats the heat like going underground. They need sunshine and exercise. If need be you can put them out in the early morning or late afternoon when things are cooler. If predators are an issue in your area. Build a wire cover for you enclosure.
> 
> The powersun is a good bulb, but it does get hot in a small enclosure. These are really only needed for winter if your tortoise doesn't get sun for months at a time.
> 
> Slow and steady growth has nothing to do with pyramiding or not. Slow growth in a sulcata often indicates a problem. If they are kept warm, humid and hydrated, it does not matter how fast they grow. It will be smooth. If they are kept dry and dehydrated, it won't matter how slow and steady they grow, it will be slow steady pyramided growth.
> 
> In 20 years of keeping sulcatas of all ages, I have never once buried anything to keep them from digging out. Mine will occasionally try to dig, maybe once or twice a year. I just fill in the hole and put a block there for a couple of weeks and they stop trying. Most of them don't try to dig most of the time, in my experience. The bigger and more interesting the enclosure, and the better your shelter, the less likely they are to try to dig.



That makes sense about the heat needing to be higher. You think I should get a higher wattage bulb then? The 50W only get up to 86 degrees, so maybe I should get an 80 or 100W. Thanks for clearing that up about him growing too fast. I have seen pictures where their shell is deformed and it said it was caused by them growing too fast, so I was so worried about feeding too much. He does have access to food at all times. 

We are about to fence in the backyard with a wooden privacy fence, so when he gets bigger, he will have the whole backyard to himself. I had planned on having 2 houses back there. One where the sun doesn't hit in the morning and one where the sun doesn't hit in the afternoon, so if one house gets too hot, he can move to the one on the other side of the yard 

Is it fine if I soak him everyday? I used to, then read where you only need to soak them 3-4 times a week. I mist the him and the rocks in his house at least once a day. I was worried about him getting shell rot if he is kept too damp. What causes shell rot?

Also, your babies are gorgeous! Are you selling them?


----------



## brandi2546

Ok, Tom...I just went through the entire post. I didn't realize it was SOOOO old. Your babies aren't babies anymore. I also understand now about the mixed information. Some of the info is very old and outdated. I will be keeping him much wetter now. 

Do you sell babies often? Mine came from CA.


----------



## Tom

brandi2546 said:


> Ok, Tom...I just went through the entire post. I didn't realize it was SOOOO old. Your babies aren't babies anymore. I also understand now about the mixed information. Some of the info is very old and outdated. I will be keeping him much wetter now.
> 
> Do you sell babies often? Mine came from CA.



You can adjust your heat by simply raising or lowering your bulb. I prefer to use lower wattage flood bulbd and just adjust it up or down to get the temps I want. I find that a 65 gives nice even heat over a fairly large area for babies. But other wattages will work too, just at different heights.

I like the two house idea. Just be prepared that he will likely pick one or the other and ignore the second one. Maybe not. It hurts nothing to try. Also During warm weather, leave him outside until after dark a few nights and see where he likes to retire for the evening. If you then put his new house in that spot, it will be much easier getting him to use it on his own.

Soaking everyday is my preference for small ones. Once they get to around 4" I cut it back to 4-5 times a week depending on the weather. Once they get around 6" I cut them back to every other day or so. By the time they hit 10-12" I cut back to once a week in winter and twice a week in summer. My adults are just sporadically done any more. I usually do the females a day or two after laying. And I do all of them when we have our summer hot spells. I ALWAYS have drinking water available for all sizes.

I mist my hatchlings at least 3-4 times a day. I try to keep this up until they are at least 6". Shell rot is a bacterial or fungal infection of the shell or some of its layers. Sulcatas almost never get it. It is extremely rare to see it in a sulcata or a leopard, and when it is seen there is some obvious reason for it. I have heard of a single leopard that had it. It was occurring at the site of a dog mauling on the shell and was a secondary infection. The one sulcata case I ever heard of was from a pipe that broke with out the owners knowing, The sulcata spent the entire winter with no heat in poopy mud. These are the only two cases that I've ever heard of and I've asked several very experienced vets who specialize in tortoises.

Yes. I do occasionally sell some babies when I have them available. I've got a bunch right now if you want some.


----------



## brandi2546

Thanks for the advice. I just clamp my light fixtures to his house. What do you hang yours from? 

What do you sell the babies for? Also, shipping will probably be high since I am in Georgia. I really am wanting a big one that I can pick up locally...preferably one that someone no longer wants. You know that campaign..."Don't Shop, Adopt". A friend of mine's Aunt had one that was 40 lbs, but it died a few weeks ago. Apparently they did not keep any water in his enclosure and he quit eating and they had to hand feed him. I think his kidney's starting shutting down because he did not get enough hydration. That was sad I know they took him to a specialist and the vet bills were insane. 

Also, I have read that some people keep theirs outside all year, but how is that possible when it gets to 30 degrees? I know you can hang a heat lamp in their house, but what if they want to come outside? I know last year, the lowest it got was in the 40s, but it typically gets colder during the winter. It just happened to be very mild this past year.


----------



## Tom

Against the advice of professional electricians (little disclaimer there, so you can't sue me if something goes wrong), I hang my lights by the cords. I and many others have been doing this for literally decades and I've never had a problem from it. This makes it very easy to keep the lamp hanging straight down and raise or lower it to get the right temps. Be careful using the clamps. Those clamps always fail eventually and many homes have been burned down because of it. I have had a few close calls with some charred wood or plastic myself. In my opinion, hang them. It's MUCH safer.

They come up for adotion pretty regularly and I think that is a great way to go, if you can find one that suits you. Most of my adults were adopted in some way or other. I got one as a trade, and all the other ones were given to me. Didn't buy any of them. I did buy my very first one back in the early 90's. If you decide you want to buy a baby from me, I charge $75 for one or $60 each for three or more. I try to refrain from selling pairs. Overnight shipping is $50 anywhere in the country for up to four babies. I have an ad in the "for sale" section.

Nighttime lows get into the 20 and 30s here over the winter too. But day times usually warm up to the 60's off 70's. Most of us build heated boxes of some sort or insulated sheds and use various devices to heat them. Here is an example:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-Mother-of-All-Tortoise-Boxes#axzz24yRPo9PM

On cold days and nights, they simply go into their warm boxes and wait for warmer temps. The better and more insulated you build your box, the easier and cheaper it will be to heat it.


----------



## brandi2546

Some of my lights have metal hooks I can hang them from too. I have always been worried about the clamps. What do you hang the cords from? Also, what do you put on the shells that make them do shiny when you take pictures?

I warms up to the 50s during the days mostly and I think they even have weather in the 30s in Africa too where they come from. I just didn't know quite how that worked if it is never supposed to be below 70 for them. I have read to make sure they are in there house at night because they may fall asleep in the yard and freeze. I don't know if I would ever feel comfortable leaving him (Bob) out in the cold. Lol. I do have a garage where I could let him stay at least.

Do you have any ideas about adoption in Georgia? I have seen some sites, but not for this state and they want a $350 adoption fee. My fiance bought me one from a pet store for $350 (it was 5 years old and 10lbs). I told him that was insane to pay that, so we got the baby for $125. The older one had some pyramiding and he had bubbly nasal discharge, so we took him back. There is a website that sells all kinds of tortoises at various prices, but I was scared to buy one & have it shipped because I didn't know what I would end up with. I know they have different personalities and wanted to choose from several, but I didn't get to anyway bc the owner of the pet store had him shipped from CA alone. I could have done that myself and saved some money. He was weird about it too because it is illegal to sell them under 4".


----------



## Tom

I either build wooden frames or use an overhanging shelf and attach rubber coated coffee cup holder hooks to hang my lights from.

That is plain old water on their shells in the pics.

I've been watching the temps in 6 random locations throughout the sulcatas natural range since November. The lowest night temp I've seen was 65, BUT you must understand that no wild sulcata ever sees that temp because they are underground in their burrows. Daytime highs are always in the 90s or above. I don't know where you heard it is never supposed to be below 70 for them. Adults can tolerate it lower. I don't let babies ever drop below 80. My adults have 80 degree boxes to sleep in over winter, but they come out and walk around when temps are in the 40s or 50s sometimes. They graze a bit and then go back in their warm boxes. My night boxes used to get pretty cold in the winters, but I much prefer keeping them warmer now that I've tried both methods.

Don't know about any rescues in Georgia. According to the people that are against breeding more sulcatas there is a huge overabundance of them just overflowing from everywhere. Of course when someone like you wants one they seem pretty scarce. This has come up many times here on the forum.

The 4" rule only applies to businesses, not small time hobbyists, and there are loopholes built in.


----------



## brandi2546

I wouldn't mind having an aldabra either. I like them a lot, but they are even harder to find. I certainly would never pay $1500 for one. They seem to be very sweet too. Do aldabras and sulcatas even get along together? I know you shouldn't have 2 males of the same type together, but I have no idea what sex mine is. As far as I know, he is no older than 6 months old..probably younger since he is only 64 grams

I am not sure what all types of tortoises you have owned, but in your opinion, which ones are the most personable?


----------



## Tom

It is unlikely that you will find an Aldabra for less than $1500. They are neat tortoises yes.

A sulcata and an Aldabra should never be mixed. Sulcatas are much more aggressive and the disease potential is not worth the risk to something so rare and precious as an Aldabra. Really no two species should be mixed in my opinion.


----------



## TortoiseWorld

Good work Tom!


----------



## BK-JAY

Hey Tom I would love to see some up to date pictures of Trey and Tuck if possible. I feel like I know the lil guys


----------



## Tom

I plan to do updates soon. Swamped with work right now.


----------



## Tom

We've had some cold rainy weather lately. Tuck and Trey have been hiding out in their warm underground "burrow". I caught them above ground doing some grazing today. I have not weighed them for a while, but they are around 12" now.


----------



## animalfreak

I am glad your doing this! It sounds successful and ill go by it too as I don't want pyramided sulcatas! I'll be checking this thanks!!


----------



## Tom

Your welcome. I hope you make your own thread, post all the details for your set up and show pics of the results. Every time someone does this it is one more nail in the coffin for the old "dry" method. Remember too keep temps warm day and night. I shoot for 80.


----------



## animalfreak

Tom said:


> Your welcome. I hope you make your own thread, post all the details for your set up and show pics of the results. Every time someone does this it is one more nail in the coffin for the old "dry" method. Remember too keep temps warm day and night. I shoot for 80.



Thanks ill make a post soon!


----------



## Clementine

Great thread - I am so excited that I found this before my baby arrived! Keep up the good work Tom!


----------



## DeanS

I can't tell if that's Trey or Tuck...but he sure looks good! Nice work buddy! I was just gonna call you today or tomorrow to find out how the burrows were working! BTW, I saw one of your other posts...that is GARGANTUA in your avatar!


----------



## Tom

DeanS said:


> I can't tell if that's Trey or Tuck...but he sure looks good! Nice work buddy! I was just gonna call you today or tomorrow to find out how the burrows were working! BTW, I saw one of your other posts...that is GARGANTUA in your avatar!



That's Trey in the update photo, and Blondie as my avatar. Burrow is working fantastically. So stable down there. I added a bucket of water last spring to increase humidity. It works great and acts as a bit of a heat sink too.


----------



## RedfootsRule

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html

Has anyone else read this?
Seems humidity and hydration are not the only effect on pyramiding - more of a treat the symptoms type deal. Everyone seems to use the argument with semi-arid species that they have "humid burrows of 80-90%" in the wild. Well, in this article, they actually TESTED that theory in the wild and...Well, see for yourself!

Not to argue with you Tom. What you have done here is fantastic - humidity and hydration are definitely a huge role in pyramiding - I just hope people understand dryness is not the only culprit.


----------



## Yellow Turtle

That's a pretty old article. I've read it and I believe many people in this forum as well.

After reading lots of threads and articles, the concept for heat, hydration, humidity and diet always comes up top for pyramiding prevention. It is pretty old concept, although I think using closed chamber practically makes things simpler and more controllable.


----------



## Tom

RedfootsRule said:


> http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html
> 
> Has anyone else read this?
> Seems humidity and hydration are not the only effect on pyramiding - more of a treat the symptoms type deal. Everyone seems to use the argument with semi-arid species that they have "humid burrows of 80-90%" in the wild. Well, in this article, they actually TESTED that theory in the wild and...Well, see for yourself!
> 
> Not to argue with you Tom. What you have done here is fantastic - humidity and hydration are definitely a huge role in pyramiding - I just hope people understand dryness is not the only culprit.



Oh I've read it. We had a big debate over it here. Its about greeks in the wild during a 14 day "test" span. Totally different thing for sulcatas and leopards. I challenge anyone to raise a smooth sulcata where it never has more than 30-40% humidity. No one that wants to argue can show me pics of a smooth tortoise raised the dry way. I'm not talking adults, since they all smooth out as they get bigger. I'm talking 100-1000 gram sulcatas. The only ones I have seen that are smooth are ones that haven't grown.

For sulcatas dryness is the main culprit. I can feed them wrong, deprive them of UV, keep them in small indoor enclosures and still grow them smooth with humidity and hydration. (I would NEVER do this, but I have seen it many times.) By contrast, I can feed them perfectly, give them correct temps, lots of UV and outdoor exercise, but if they are kept dry, with no humid hide, the WILL pyramid. If you don't believe me, take a look at my adults.

There are many other factors to raising a smooth HEALTHY tortoise, but you can't do smooth without some water one way or another.


----------



## surie_the_tortoise

is there a set amount of food you feed your sulcata (say 1 cup daily as an example)? for the record im a big believer in the humidity concept . just curious if you had them on a set amounth for ages. also whats your thoughts on mazuri being fed to sulcata?


----------



## RedfootsRule

The article states the test was done with over 18,000 data points over a 12-month period. Certinaly not something to dismiss, IMHO. But yes, it was just done in the natural habitat of greeks, and leopards and sulcatas MAY be a lot different. Honestly, I'll not pretend to know one way or another what its like in africa; never seen actual data on the AH in their burrows in the wild. 

Like I said, obviously humidity and hydration are a major effect on the smoothness. But bone development has a bit to do with it to. The article talks a lot about the thickening of keratin from dryness putting pressure on the bones, etc. etc. 

I believe you Tom. Humidity + hydration = smooth tortoise. I've seen more then enough to believe it; but its not the ONLY way to treat it. Sure, it can keep them smooth, but keeping the bones underneath healthy and developing correctly will have a lot to do with it also.

No UV and wrong diet = MBD, thus a "pyramided" tortoise =P. I know what you meant, sorry I couldn't resist .

Once again, I'm not in any way trying to say dryness doesn't have a lot to do with smooth tortoises...I'm just saying it isn't EVERYTHING.


----------



## Tortus

RedfootsRule said:


> http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html
> 
> Has anyone else read this?
> Seems humidity and hydration are not the only effect on pyramiding - more of a treat the symptoms type deal. Everyone seems to use the argument with semi-arid species that they have "humid burrows of 80-90%" in the wild. Well, in this article, they actually TESTED that theory in the wild and...Well, see for yourself!
> 
> Not to argue with you Tom. What you have done here is fantastic - humidity and hydration are definitely a huge role in pyramiding - I just hope people understand dryness is not the only culprit.



A paragraph from that link made me wonder something:

_A further important factor is that wild terrestrial tortoises are continually wearing and abrading excess keratin from the scutes in the course of normal life. Unlike turtles, they do not shed old keratin - they wear it away. They are abraded by coarse vegetation, by impact with rocks, by wind-born sand particles, and by the constant burying, digging and excavating they engage in. While estivating or hibernating they are not motionless. They move, surrounded by highly abrasive particles in the soil. Also, micro-organisms in the soil gradually degrade the outer surface of the scutes. As such, they are subject to continual wearing (and resulting thinning) of the scutes. In the vast majority of captive situations (and especially so in indoor maintenance) this factor is totally overlooked by keepers. One result is that the keratin continues to accumulate even if humidity is not an issue. Where very low humidity is also present, the effect is compounded._

Since the article seems to claim the wearing down of scutes is a factor that creates smooth wild tortoises, can captive tortoises that show signs of pyramiding be filed smooth? Is the top of the "pyramid" down to the base pure keratin with no flesh that can be removed?

I know that's probably a silly question but I've seen pics of tortoises that didn't appear to have any growth rings at all, yet alone pyramiding, and I wondered if they were manually helped along.


----------



## RedfootsRule

I honestly had that thought to Tortus, but I then got the picture of me, one of my tortoises, and an electric sander and...quickly dismissed the idea .


----------



## Yvonne G

No, I think that idea is all wet. I have several female tortoises that have been bred quite a bit. Their carapaces are worn in spots...where the male plastron rubs on the female carapace right above her tail; where each front foot of the male rubs on the front of the female's carapace. These spots are worn smooth and probably thin, and they are devoid of any coloration or patterning that may have been there in the first place. The smooth wild tortoises you see still have their patterns.

Another thing to consider is that the pyramids go up on the outside as well as on the inside. If you were to take your electric sander and grind them smooth, you would soon have holes in the shell.


----------



## Tom

Each actual pyramid consists of a very thin layer of keratin, about the thickness of your thumbnail, and the rest is living bone. After filing about a millimeter, you'd be filing down bone.

See this:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-19691.html?highlight=Open+Topped+Pyramided+Scute

Make sure you read down to at least post #15. Much better pics there.


----------



## RedfootsRule

Tom, I was thinking about chersina angulata today, and it made me wonder...How do we stop pyramiding with them? Humidity is said to be their absolutely worst enemy....Is a humid hide enough, and does the humid hide not have negative health effects? Same with egyptians...Or with these more fragile, humidity-sensitive tortoises, do we have to rely on supporting proper bone growth instead of hydration and humidity?
Just a thought ....


----------



## Tom

surie_the_tortoise said:


> is there a set amount of food you feed your sulcata (say 1 cup daily as an example)? for the record im a big believer in the humidity concept . just curious if you had them on a set amounth for ages. also whats your thoughts on mazuri being fed to sulcata?



I let babies eat as much as they want. I the wild they hatch during the rainy season and are surrounded by as much food as they want. My preference, weather permitting, is to put them into a well planted enclosure with grasses and weeds and let them graze all day long on whatever they want.

Mazuri is a good food for them. It is balanced nutrition and a good way to insure they are getting all the nutrition they need. I feed it a couple of times a week.




RedfootsRule said:


> Tom, I was thinking about chersina angulata today, and it made me wonder...How do we stop pyramiding with them? Humidity is said to be their absolutely worst enemy...q



Chersina angulata are reputedly difficult to keep alive in captivity. I think the same things said about them are said about other species. Incorrect speculation based on above ground temps and other weather data. There is a man who gave a presentation at the first TTPG conference in 2010 who has had tremendous success with the species and gets babies every year. He gave us his secret. He displayed a world map with several areas highlighted in red. He said, if you want to keep them alive move to one of these areas, put them in large secure outdoor pens and leave them alone. He lives in San Diego somewhat near the coast. No heat. Moderate humidity. Cold nights. Foggy sometimes. June gloom every year, etc... The highlighted areas on the map included the Mediterranean, southern CA one portion of Australia, and of course, South Africa. All areas that have a similar climate.

It seems that this species is not as adaptable as some. Sulcatas for example will thrive in FL, AZ, CA, OR, VA, MI, TX,.... You get the point. They will tolerate a wide variety of conditions, temps and humidity. For whatever reason, some species have a much narrower range of tolerance for "less than optimal" conditions.

I have no experience at all with Chersina or Egyptians, so I can't tell you what they need or how to grow them smooth. I can speculate based on my experience with other species that were said to be "sensitive" to humidity, but it would only be unbased speculation. Ask someone who breeds and has success with those species.


----------



## 5.7

Tom said:



> We've had some cold rainy weather lately. Tuck and Trey have been hiding out in their warm underground "burrow". I caught them above ground doing some grazing today. I have not weighed them for a while, but they are around 12" now.



looks great how old is it?


----------



## Tom

Hatched in May of 2010, at the beginning of this thread about them.


----------



## Love4tortoises

I know all Sulcata's grow at different rates, but in your opinion, how much should they weigh at about 6 months? 

I purchased my sulcata from a pet store in November and dont know its birth date. As of February 16th, 2013 he weighed 55 grams and is about 2.5 inches in length. Does this sound like he is growing or should he weigh more by now? I feel like all the other readings I have seen the torts weigh more by now...

Any helpful info on growth rates would be great! I want to make sure that he is growing at a healthy rate!!

Thank you, Tom!


----------



## paludarium

Tom said:


> We've had some cold rainy weather lately. Tuck and Trey have been hiding out in their warm underground "burrow". I caught them above ground doing some grazing today. I have not weighed them for a while, but they are around 12" now.


Wow. I love this thread and the results.




RedfootsRule said:


> http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html
> 
> Has anyone else read this?
> Seems humidity and hydration are not the only effect on pyramiding - more of a treat the symptoms type deal. Everyone seems to use the argument with semi-arid species that they have "humid burrows of 80-90%" in the wild. Well, in this article, they actually TESTED that theory in the wild and...Well, see for yourself!
> 
> Not to argue with you Tom. What you have done here is fantastic - humidity and hydration are definitely a huge role in pyramiding - I just hope people understand dryness is not the only culprit.


I don't know why some authors missed this important study? The following research is one of the must read articles regarding humidity and water balance:
Water balance in neonate and juvenile desert tortoises, Gopherus agassizii

The abstract of this research along unveils many interesting facts. 
Such as "in controlled laboratory conditions, rates of body mass loss which reflect net evaporative water losses, were independent of the difference in vapor density between the animal and its environment." Also " total evaporation rate was independent of burrow conditions, but tortoises in the longer, more humid burrows had higher rates of water vapor input and total water input than did those in shorter burrows. Thus, tortoises in long burrows lost body mass more slowly in response to a higher humidity, in contrast to neonates under laboratory conditions."

Ambient humidity is not as effective as burrows or "humid hides" to prevent the neonates or juveniles from losing water.


----------



## Tom

Love4tortoises said:


> I know all Sulcata's grow at different rates, but in your opinion, how much should they weigh at about 6 months?
> 
> I purchased my sulcata from a pet store in November and dont know its birth date. As of February 16th, 2013 he weighed 55 grams and is about 2.5 inches in length. Does this sound like he is growing or should he weigh more by now? I feel like all the other readings I have seen the torts weigh more by now...
> 
> Any helpful info on growth rates would be great! I want to make sure that he is growing at a healthy rate!!
> 
> Thank you, Tom!



Your weight sounds fine for a 3.5 month old. Steady growth is what you are after and you've got it. They start at around 35 grams. Make sure your temps are good, day and night, and feed that little bugger. Don't worry. He'll be giant soon enough.

Do you feed Mazuri? Its a good food as part of a varied diet for young ones. Helps them put on some size and get past that delicate baby stage sooner.


----------



## Love4tortoises

Tom said:


> Love4tortoises said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know all Sulcata's grow at different rates, but in your opinion, how much should they weigh at about 6 months?
> 
> I purchased my sulcata from a pet store in November and dont know its birth date. As of February 16th, 2013 he weighed 55 grams and is about 2.5 inches in length. Does this sound like he is growing or should he weigh more by now? I feel like all the other readings I have seen the torts weigh more by now...
> 
> Any helpful info on growth rates would be great! I want to make sure that he is growing at a healthy rate!!
> 
> Thank you, Tom!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your weight sounds fine for a 3.5 month old. Steady growth is what you are after and you've got it. They start at around 35 grams. Make sure your temps are good, day and night, and feed that little bugger. Don't worry. He'll be giant soon enough.
> 
> Do you feed Mazuri? Its a good food as part of a varied diet for young ones. Helps them put on some size and get past that delicate baby stage sooner.
Click to expand...


Great! I am so happy to hear that!  I just learned from reading on the forum about the Mazuri food, so I actually ordered some and I am waiting for it to be delivered.  I have finally mastered the tank conditions and have seen a huge improvement in his activity since figuring it out. Thank you so much for starting this thread about pyramiding, it is amazing!  I will post pics once my little one grows a bit more! 
Thanks again!


----------



## mintybum

Hi
I have a 14 year old cherry head and two three year old redfoots, ive just noticed that one ooks like its showing signs of pyramiding, the othe rthree year old is ok as is my oldest, is there any reason for this?
Julie


----------



## Ansh

First of all Tom, I'd like to thank you for the work you've done! This thread (and some other similar threads) have provided me with more information than anything else I've read. 

I am relatively inexperienced, but learning fast. Have 2 Stars about 6 months old that are feeding really well. Have more than doubled in weight in the last 4 months. The point of my post is to share an observation that you made earlier. Both my tortoises are exposed to the same temperature/ humidity, soaking and diet. I have had problems maintaining the humidity in the past but that has been sorted. Despite these identical conditions, one of my stars seems to have developed some pyramiding. I've thought a lot about the reason for this and the only difference between them is that the one that isn't pyramided seems to prefer to sleep in the humid hide, whereas the other one doesn't. I've now introduced another hide and hope that this will help prevent further pyramiding. The humidity is now constantly between 70-80% and I can't think of anything else that I could change. 

I know you noted something similar with your sulcatas. Would love to hear what you think. 

(I appreciate stars are supposed to have some natural pyramiding but that still doesn't explain the difference between the 2).


----------



## Tom

Ansh, I love your way of thinking.

In my experience with species other than stars, pairs are a bad idea. Almost always, one member of a pair grows faster and smoother while the other grows slower and more pyramided. Is this a function of chronic stress? Is it simply mechanical in that one hogs the most food and the best microclimates within the enclosure for sleeping, basking and resting? I don't have this answer, but I have observed what you are seeing many times with multiple species.

If I were you, I would separate these two or get another one or two. I'll bet that either course of action will make the smaller guys growth start to come in smoother.

Again, I can't speak for stars, but shell spraying has helped with sulcatas and leopards I've raised. You could spray the lumpier one more often. I like at least 3-4 times a day, but if I'm trying to slow down some pyramiding I might do it 10 times a day.


----------



## Ansh

Thanks Tom. Makes lot of sense. Will separate the 2 and see what happens.


----------



## tortoise007

Any update? I really don't want read through the whole thing but I've read about 10 pages and this thread rocks! Well done Tom, I haven't heard much about Tulie... is she still doing OK? I could check myself but as I stated, I don't want to read through all of it (would you read through 41 pages of one thread ?)


----------



## Tom

Tulee was given to a forum member whose sulcata had died due to chronic dehydration problems. I felt bad for her, so I offered to give her one of mine. She loved it, was very thankful, posted a couple of threads on how wonderful everything was and then promptly disappeared. She would not return my calls, answer emails or PMs, and told me I had the wrong number before hanging up on me when I called her once. I didn't have the wrong number. It was programmed with her name in my phone. It was obviously her voice.

I can only guess that the tortoise suffered some sort of untimely demise and the woman just couldn't face it, so she buried her head in the sand, so to speak, instead of handling it like a grown up.


----------



## tortoise007

That's not good....


----------



## TurtleTortoise

*Re: RE: The End Of Pyramiding*



Tom said:


> Tulee was given to a forum member whose sulcata had died due to chronic dehydration problems. I felt bad for her, so I offered to give her one of mine. She loved it, was very thankful, posted a couple of threads on how wonderful everything was and then promptly disappeared. She would not return my calls, answer emails or PMs, and told me I had the wrong number before hanging up on me when I called her once. I didn't have the wrong number. It was programmed with her name in my phone. It was obviously her voice.
> 
> I can only guess that the tortoise suffered some sort of untimely demise and the woman just couldn't face it, so she buried her head in the sand, so to speak, instead of handling it like a grown up.



That's terrible! I wonder what happened to Tulee... quick question (I'm sure you've answered before and I didn't want to start a new topic) what should you do if your tort doesn't use the humid hide? If you put them in it enough do they just go in automatically or what? He has one other hide he uses which can be removed, but I would only want to remove it if I have to. Thanks and great work!


----------



## tortoise007

Tom, should I make all my hides humid hides?


----------



## Tom

TurtleTortoise said:


> what should you do if your tort doesn't use the humid hide? If you put them in it enough do they just go in automatically or what? He has one other hide he uses which can be removed, but I would only want to remove it if I have to. Thanks and great work!



Brand new hatchlings go to great lengths to avoid any sort of cave or hole in the ground. In the wild this would help keep them away from what ever hungry animal MADE said hole. In time they get comfortable and secure in their enclosures and start using the hides more. Once they get some size on, you can hardly get them OUT of their hide.

Here's what I do: I put the babies in the humid hides several times a day and just let them walk out at their leisure. Then about an hour or so after dark, I put them in their hide and make sure the room stays pitch black. They usually don't want to go moving around in the dark and will stay in until morning. On a few stubborn individuals, I'd block them in at night.

Just make sure it never drops below 80 F in there.




tortoise007 said:


> Tom, should I make all my hides humid hides?



Personally, I would not offer a dry hide to a hatchling. I keep their whole chamber humid AND offer humid hides that are even more humid than the humid closed chamber air. Mine sleep inside their humid hides inside their humid closed chambers.

In the wild, there is no dry hide for them when they hatch in the rainy season. Everything is humid.

Do NOT let any part of your enclosure drop below 80 with humidity.


----------



## tortoise007

All righty! I'll get some more humid hides pronto!


----------



## TurtleTortoise

Same here, thanks for the advice! He used it last night so we're off to a good start.


----------



## Jesse977

Hey Tom my baby sulcata and I thank you for all your hard work and dedication. My baby is two months old and so far his shell is nice and smooth thanks to you.


----------



## Camdens tortoise

my little guy still refuses to use his hide. He used it for 1 day and I got excited but that was the end of that! I put him in there all the time but he just keeps coming out! On the bright side...my closed chamber is AMAZING and at least I know hes warm and humid!


----------



## BK-JAY

Hey Tom can we get some up date pictures of these guys? I see they just turn 3 years old on the 15th


----------



## Tom

BK-JAY said:


> Hey Tom can we get some up date pictures of these guys? I see they just turn 3 years old on the 15th



I keep thinking I need to do that. They will be moving into the big adult enclosure soon, so updates will be coming. They are doing well.


----------



## BK-JAY

that's great we'll be waiting 3 years old can't wait to see them


----------



## Sezdawg

This is great. You really meant it when you said this thread would last for years! Very cool experiment!


----------



## arotester

Hi,
TOM i would like to thank you for all the work you have done.The water sprays and humid hide idea have worked for me and by the way i have stars which have grown smoother due humidity.That's another tort species you can add to your list that respond well to the humidity thing


----------



## IRTehDuckie

after skimming over this thread, i see i need to change a lot about my tortoises houses. I know everybody thinks they come from the desert, what does humidity matter? btu you are right, about the burrows.. they ARE so far down its always humid there, and they spend a lot of time there.. My tortoise has slighty pyramiding on the shell, just little bumps, nothing huge, but after seeing this, i definitely need to get stuff straight.

my tort is 2 and a half, and we keep her outside all day, bring her in at night, at night the humidity is about20-50% depending on the weather outside, and temps never get below 73 degrees. during the day we pop her outside, and temps range much more from 60 to 90, (its michigan, what can i say? haha) but humitidy out there is usually high, about 70 to 80.

Is there anything different i should be doing? I know for a fact now i have to make the appropriate shelter for my sulcatas.


----------



## Tom

What size is your tortoise? Age doesn't matter. Once they get to about 8-10" they will start smoothing out regardless of humidity. It's the first few months and the first few inches of growth that are the most critical.


----------



## mintybum

theyre about 3"
Yes I read that its part of their make-up kinda from how theyre kept from very young, I bought these guys at 1 year old I do need to improve the humidity I feel. Always a problem in the uk.
My 13 yr old's shell is fine so im doing something right you just so so many horro stories its slmost the norm to have pyramiding on them now a days

Sent from my GT-I9100 using TortForum mobile app




IRTehDuckie said:


> after skimming over this thread, i see i need to change a lot about my tortoises houses. I know everybody thinks they come from the desert, what does humidity matter? btu you are right, about the burrows.. they ARE so far down its always humid there, and they spend a lot of time there.. My tortoise has slighty pyramiding on the shell, just little bumps, nothing huge, but after seeing this, i definitely need to get stuff straight.
> 
> my tort is 2 and a half, and we keep her outside all day, bring her in at night, at night the humidity is about20-50% depending on the weather outside, and temps never get below 73 degrees. during the day we pop her outside, and temps range much more from 60 to 90, (its michigan, what can i say? haha) but humitidy out there is usually high, about 70 to 80.
> 
> Is there anything different i should be doing? I know for a fact now i have to make the appropriate shelter for my sulcatas.



Hi redfoots arent from the desert lol, theyre from the amazon where is damp and humid. id says you humidity is fine, 70-80 is great do you have hose the run down keep it damp for them?
im no expert, still learning myself.


----------



## BK-JAY

No up-to-date pictures yet awww ok I guess you'll get around to it when get a minute can't wait to see them


----------



## Tom

BK-JAY said:


> No up-to-date pictures yet awww ok I guess you'll get around to it when get a minute can't wait to see them



I tried to get pics yesterday, but they never came up above ground. They were fat and happy from the previous days big cactus meal and it was really hot and windy, so the lazy tortoises just stayed underground where their weather is always perfect. I didn't feel like reaching in to grab them out of their hole. Trey is really too big to pick up one handed anymore.

I'll get some pics ASAP.


----------



## Tom

They are now three years old, and they are both doing well. I'm pretty sure they are both female too. I didn't get weights, but Tuck is now 12" long and Trey is 14". For those that are new to the forum and don't want to go back and read 42 pages, these were my first tortoises that I raised with the "wet routine" from literally the day they hatched. They were raised in an open topped enclosure. I had it mostly covered, but humidity was never stable and never where I wanted it to be. The room was usually around 50% and inside the enclosure was usually a bit higher. These guys look good enough to make me happy, but you can see they are not perfectly smooth. My Sudans were started in a closed chamber once I got them, and they are growing considerably smoother than these two. Its all a learning process. I started this thread in an attempt to silence those that called this method of simulating the African rainy season "unnatural". They said that the tortoises would get a respiratory infection and/or shell rot from all the humidity. I showed them pics of Daisy, who was my first tortoise ever to get the "wet routine", but still they argued. I'm still waiting for that shell rot and RI to develop, but so far, after three full years, I haven't seen any sign of either yet... My opponents in this argument got quieter and quieter as this thread progressed.

Soon they will be moving into the 7000 square foot adult enclosure. Here they are:


----------



## AZtortMom

Beautiful torts, Tom. Thank you for sharing [SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]


Life is good


----------



## Tom

Chainsawkitten said:


> Beautiful torts, Tom. Thank you for sharing [SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]
> 
> 
> Life is good



You're welcome.


----------



## Yellow Turtle

Tom said:


>



They look smooth enough to make me really happy if I care for them myself.

I'm curious with the above pictures. Are they their soaking containers or containers being put in their enclosure for them to self soaking?


----------



## Tom

Yellow Turtle said:


> They look smooth enough to make me really happy if I care for them myself.
> I'm curious with the above pictures. Are they their soaking containers or containers being put in their enclosure for them to self soaking?



They are great big concrete mixing tubs that I use for soaking the big ones. Here is an old pic with some of my adults in them.


----------



## Laura

so now your next experiment should be rainy season and amount of food.. I wonder if overfeeding causes they to have growth spurts... hence pyramid.


----------



## Tom

These guys have free fed their whole lives. My Sudan's too.

From what I can tell, if conditions are correct, they don't pyramid regardless of growth rate. If conditions are not correct they will pyramid no matter how slow you grow them. My adults demonstrated this one for me.


----------



## BK-JAY

They look great Tom thanks for the pictures and the on going knowledge you grace us with. can't wait to see them at 4 years old


----------



## IRTehDuckie

*Re: RE: The End Of Pyramiding*



Tom said:


> What size is your tortoise? Age doesn't matter. Once they get to about 8-10" they will start smoothing out regardless of humidity. It's the first few months and the first few inches of growth that are the most critical.



I didnt know that at all, I still have a little one about 4 or 5 inches though. So I still plan on taking all of your advice. Thanks again!

Sent from my GT-P5113 using TortForum mobile app


----------



## tortoise007

Hey Tom, I was wondering... There is all this talk about stoping pyramiding and all... but what's so bad about it??? Other than showing that the tortoise may or may not be slightly dehydrated, is there anything harmful about it? I mean does it harm the tortoise in any what soever? There are plenty of tortoises out there that aren't dehydrated but still have slight pyramiding. Unless the tortoise is quite noticeable pyramided and when you see it you think, "Man, that thing needs help!", Is there anything wrong with minor pyramiding??? Or is it just something that people like to say: "My tortoise is pyramid free!"? 

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, what's the big deal about minor pyramiding? I get that heavy pyramiding shows that the tortoise is unhealthy and all, but what's so bad about minor pyramiding Other than it looks bad?


BTW... do you still have scooter, Bert, Delores and Daisy? Your first four sulcatas? If you do I'd love to see some pics, so you can say: "these are my first ever sulcatas!"


----------



## Tom

Pyramided bone is porous. Non pyramided bone is dense, relatively thin and heavy. When you look at it in cross section, the pyramided bone looks like a big sponge. Imagine if your skull was made of porous lumps instead of the dense correctly formed bone that it is currently made up of.

Does this hurt anything in a practical sense? No. Not really, unless its pretty severe and associated with MBD. The big deal to me is that they don't do this in the wild. Wild sulcatas are smooth. All the wild leopards I've seen in the wild were smooth. All the Testudo in the wild are smooth. There are a couple of species where some mild pyramiding might occur in the wild, like the Tent tortoise (Psammobates) from South Africa and possibly some Indian stars, but most do not. To me this indicates that "we", the people who keep these tortoise here in captivity, are doing something terribly "WRONG". I figured out at least some of the problem. People were keeping tortoises that in the wild would hatch into a wet, hot, rainy, humid environment, in desert like conditions. They were doing this based on incorrect, but somewhat logical assumptions.

There is much more to this whole thing that needs to be studied and tested, but at least for the time being, people can now grow a captive tortoise that comes pretty close to looking like a wild one of the same species. The shell may not be weathered and abraded as much, but at least it has the same general shape and profile.

Your question is a good one. Ask more.


----------



## tortoise007

Tom said:


> Pyramided bone is porous. Non pyramided bone is dense, relatively thin and heavy. When you look at it in cross section, the pyramided bone looks like a big sponge. Imagine if your skull was made of porous lumps instead of the dense correctly formed bone that it is currently made up of.
> 
> Does this hurt anything in a practical sense? No. Not really, unless its pretty severe and associated with MBD. The big deal to me is that they don't do this in the wild. Wild sulcatas are smooth. All the wild leopards I've seen in the wild were smooth. All the Testudo in the wild are smooth. There are a couple of species where some mild pyramiding might occur in the wild, like the Tent tortoise (Psammobates) from South Africa and possibly some Indian stars, but most do not. To me this indicates that "we", the people who keep these tortoise here in captivity, are doing something terribly "WRONG". I figured out at least some of the problem. People were keeping tortoises that in the wild would hatch into a wet, hot, rainy, humid environment, in desert like conditions. They were doing this based on incorrect, but somewhat logical assumptions.
> 
> There is much more to this whole thing that needs to be studied and tested, but at least for the time being, people can now grow a captive tortoise that comes pretty close to looking like a wild one of the same species. The shell may not be weathered and abraded as much, but at least it has the same general shape and profile.
> 
> Your question is a good one. Ask more.




Thank you! Very interesting! Glad to know that.


----------



## TommyZ

Hey Tom, 

I was thinking since pyramiding is directly correlated to moisture and humidity do you think there's any chance that using Vita shell on a hatchling would be beneficial? It seems just like a general moisturizer to me so I have been putting it on my hatchling weekly, I posted pics on a separate thread recently and everyone seemed to say that the shell was growing in quite smooth with no early signs of pyramiding. I do still struggle a bit with humidity, it hovers in the 50 to 70 percent range as opposed to the 80 percent typically required and recommended for a cherry head hatchling. I am wondering what your thoughts are on using Vita shell or some other lotion or moisturizer type to aid in stopping pyramiding early on? Thanks for having my input. 

Tom

Sent from my SCH-I535 using TortForum mobile app


----------



## Tom

I did a whole thread on this a couple of years ago. I found it made no difference, but it was only a very small trial on three tortoises. Some people swear by it and claim great results from it.

Personally, I'm pretty neutral on it. I don't think it does any harm, and in some cases I think it might offer some benefit.


----------



## thereptileenthusiast

Very interesting thread. Most large sulcatas here in sunny, humid south florida have a small bump in the center of each scute about the size of a typical pyramid from a 5-6 inch tortoise. I assume that is the size most people get tired of them tearing up the indoor (dry)enclosure and move them to the backyard. Smaller ones like to create a depression under a bush or dense vegetation where it is nice and humid and spend the hottest part of the day there. Adults create burrows and also spend the hottest part of the day there. Most will sprint to their favorite grazing spot when it starts to rain and eat all the soaking wet vegetation they can get. Mine love being out and about during light rain.
One thing many people outside of South Florida don't realize is our winters are very dry. Wet season corresponds to the hot summers. "Winter" is typically in the 70's and we scarcely get rain. Your lawn will actually go dormant if you don't irrigate and look like dry hay. My sulcatas will still spend just as much time in the burrows even though it is cooler, so apparently they enjoy the extra humidity there. They still prefer to come out in the early AM regardless of temps since the grass is wet with dew.
As was mentioned, sulcatas aren't found roaming the barren sandunes of the Sahara. They live in the marginal areas where the desert gives way to the savannah and there is abundant vegetation. Have you ever walked through the subdesert in the early AM? The vegetation is soaking wet. That is when tortoises are out and about, eating the wet vegetation and no doubt getting nice and wet as they pass through the wet vegetation. 
Just my 2 cents


----------



## Ansh

The more I think about it, the more in feel that the dry method for raising hatchlings is completely unfounded. Even in the simplest sense, an animal that carries most of its bony skeleton around it, must need to keep it moist in order for the growth to be uniform. Drying out of the outer keratin layer would only restrict the growth of the underlying bone resulting in the 'pyramided' appearance.


----------



## -EJ

Just one little important correction... pyramided bone is not always porous... which is a sign of MBD. A pyramided tortoise does not always have MBD. 

Also... a humid environment benefits ALL tortoises regardless of size.


----------



## Tom

Every cross section of pyramided bone I've seen has been porous. Have you seen one that wasn't?


----------



## -EJ

I've seen many pyramided shells where the cross section was dense. This is how I can state that pyramiding is not a sign of MBD.




Tom said:


> Every cross section of pyramided bone I've seen has been porous. Have you seen one that wasn't?


----------



## Ansh

This thread is taking an interesting turn. EJ, could you point me to any specific references suggesting that bone porosity is absent in pyramided bone? I would really like to study this aspect as it fascinates me. As a practicing rheumatologist I have lots of experience with MBD in humans. In humans osteoporotic bone is less dense. But a number of other metabolic bone diseases have completely normal bone density, and yet have bone that is brittle and of poor quality. Most importantly, the quality of bone often has very little impact on the general state of health in such patients. And so the question is, does pyramided bone fall into this spectrum of bone disease where the usual parameters for assessing bone quality are not useful.




Ansh said:


> This thread is taking an interesting turn. EJ, could you point me to any specific references suggesting that bone porosity is absent in pyramided bone? I would really like to study this aspect as it fascinates me. As a practicing rheumatologist I have lots of experience with MBD in humans. In humans osteoporotic bone is less dense. But a number of other metabolic bone diseases have completely normal bone density, and yet have bone that is brittle and of poor quality. Most importantly, the quality of bone often has very little impact on the general state of health in such patients. And so the question is, does pyramided bone fall into this spectrum of bone disease where the usual parameters for assessing bone quality are not useful.



I apologise if this is the wrong place for this discussion. Please move this post to a different section if appropriate.


----------



## -EJ

You are going to the other end of the spectrum. I don't think I've ever seen where tortoise bone is brittle but I bet it does occur.

In my experience... pyramiding is not an indication of ill health or improper development.



Ansh said:


> This thread is taking an interesting turn. EJ, could you point me to any specific references suggesting that bone porosity is absent in pyramided bone? I would really like to study this aspect as it fascinates me. As a practicing rheumatologist I have lots of experience with MBD in humans. In humans osteoporotic bone is less dense. But a number of other metabolic bone diseases have completely normal bone density, and yet have bone that is brittle and of poor quality. Most importantly, the quality of bone often has very little impact on the general state of health in such patients. And so the question is, does pyramided bone fall into this spectrum of bone disease where the usual parameters for assessing bone quality are not useful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ansh said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread is taking an interesting turn. EJ, could you point me to any specific references suggesting that bone porosity is absent in pyramided bone? I would really like to study this aspect as it fascinates me. As a practicing rheumatologist I have lots of experience with MBD in humans. In humans osteoporotic bone is less dense. But a number of other metabolic bone diseases have completely normal bone density, and yet have bone that is brittle and of poor quality. Most importantly, the quality of bone often has very little impact on the general state of health in such patients. And so the question is, does pyramided bone fall into this spectrum of bone disease where the usual parameters for assessing bone quality are not useful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I apologise if this is the wrong place for this discussion. Please move this post to a different section if appropriate.
Click to expand...


----------



## Tom

Tuck and Trey have officially moved into the larger enclosure. They now have 7000 square feet to roam.

Here is Tuck sharing some Mazuri with Goldie:








Here is Trey having a bite with Daisy:







And here is the "big" picture:


----------



## Sky2Mina

I observed this thread since almost the beginning (I think 5 or 6 months into the experiment) and I always awed and owed at these cute torts. I can't believe how much they have grown and how quick 3 years passed by. Needless to say, they are beautiful. This thread inspired me to raise my star in a humid environment (well semi-humid anyways with a humid box, frequent baths and direct-shell spraying), although I was afraid she'd get RI, but she never did. Keep up the good work, Tom. I love these experiment threads - also because of the regular growth updates and pictures.


----------



## Tom

Sky2Mina said:


> I observed this thread since almost the beginning (I think 5 or 6 months into the experiment) and I always awed and owed at these cute torts. I can't believe how much they have grown and how quick 3 years passed by. Needless to say, they are beautiful. This thread inspired me to raise my star in a humid environment (well semi-humid anyways with a humid box, frequent baths and direct-shell spraying), although I was afraid she'd get RI, but she never did. Keep up the good work, Tom. I love these experiment threads - also because of the regular growth updates and pictures.



Thanks for the support, and thank you for participating by adding your own info. I have not done this with Indian stars, so now we have more evidence from you demonstrating that it works with them too!  Sweet!

Everyone else is welcome to chime in with their own experience on this topic too.


----------



## the567spud

Nice.


Edward. B


----------



## monkeylu

Thank you Tom for this thread. I recently discussed my Russian with you and I admit I am new to all this. My passion is with sulcata though and this has been a treasure of information and research. Your care and love for these noble being is palpable. Hopefully soon I can chime in with my own findings and ideas. My husband and I plan to start a sulcata sanctuary for those who out grew their owners. Oh and I'm having trouble seeing the last 3 photos you posted on the 7/20/13. Perhaps its my stupid phone. Love and light to y'all. 

Sent from my PC36100 using TortForum mobile app


----------



## BangoSkank

Awesome job documenting their progression. This is very informative and I will definitely be raising my tort this way.


----------



## tortoise007

Hey Tom (and everyone else on TFO, but I thought since this is Tom's thread...)!!!!! Loooooooooooooooooooooong time no post on my part  ! Man I haven't been on TFO in ages! Well, I'm back. Quick question, Hermanns, they need a humid environment right? Remember my post months back: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-72793.html
Would this enclosure work for a hermanns baby? I never got my leo... life got busy, we moved ect. So i started considering other species, like hermanns.


----------



## fbolzicco

congrats Tom!!
This is one of the best topic I've ever read.
I's wrong to think that desert tortoises never have access to moisture, remember also that in nature this animals dig deep holes to shelter from both hot days and the cold nights, but doing this they have access to the moisture in the subsoil.

p.s. forgive my bad english, I only need to improve it


----------



## andre_saltiva

i do this method for a several day with my star
the problem is very hard to keep it humid while it warm,
when temp around 31-32c i spray all the substrate to raise humidity from 60-70 to reach 80 above, when I'm get the right humid, temperature suddenly fall to 26-27, so i get higher lamp ( 100 watt / add more lamp on the other end ) since move downward not working. and guess what, when i get the right temperature 30-31 on warm side, the humidity fall back to 60-70, arghh, i spray again and the temp fall again,,>.<
how can this happen?
i use closed wooden terrarium with some ventilation on upper front and some in lower back, 3x2x2' with cocopeat
my room temp is around 26-28 and humid 60-70


----------



## Cowboy_Ken

andre_saltiva said:


> i use closed wooden terrarium with some ventilation on upper front and some in lower back, 3x2x2' with cocopeat
> my room temp is around 26-28 and humid 60-70



I would cover the vents to prevent the heat exchange to the room. My closed chambers have no vents. It stays constant temperature and constant humidity inside. I open my tortoise cage always 
2-3 time each day, so they always have fresh air.


----------



## Tom

Yep. I agree with Ken. If you are losing warmth and humidity, there is too much ventilation. With what you were describing, I was expecting your enclosure to have an open top. Then I read a little further.

Can you post a pic?


----------



## andre_saltiva

Cowboy_Ken said:


> andre_saltiva said:
> 
> 
> 
> i use closed wooden terrarium with some ventilation on upper front and some in lower back, 3x2x2' with cocopeat
> my room temp is around 26-28 and humid 60-70
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would cover the vents to prevent the heat exchange to the room. My closed chambers have no vents. It stays constant temperature and constant humidity inside. I open my tortoise cage always
> 2-3 time each day, so they always have fresh air.
Click to expand...




Tom said:


> Yep. I agree with Ken. If you are losing warmth and humidity, there is too much ventilation. With what you were describing, I was expecting your enclosure to have an open top. Then I read a little further.
> 
> Can you post a pic?



here's my enclosure
should i cover all the vents
I'm just worried he don't get enough fresh air
the left side is the hardest to get right humid, 80% only last 15min

* vents mark with red arrow



* top side is fully closed,


----------



## Cowboy_Ken

So in my opinion, if you are opening your enclosure to feed once a day, you are providing e good air exchange. As far as how many/much to plug you need to experiment. I have zero vents.


----------



## Tom

I would close them off and see what happens with your heat and humidity. Every enclosure is different and everyone must make adjustments based on the readings from their thermometers and hygrometers.

My closed chambers have no vents at all, but they are not air tight either. And as Ken mentioned, opening the doors a few times a day for soaking feeding, water bowl cleaning, etc., allows for a decent amount of air exchange.

I predict things will get a little better with each one of those vent you close.


----------



## andre_saltiva

Cowboy_Ken said:


> So in my opinion, if you are opening your enclosure to feed once a day, you are providing e good air exchange. As far as how many/much to plug you need to experiment. I have zero vents.





Tom said:


> I would close them off and see what happens with your heat and humidity. Every enclosure is different and everyone must make adjustments based on the readings from their thermometers and hygrometers.
> 
> My closed chambers have no vents at all, but they are not air tight either. And as Ken mentioned, opening the doors a few times a day for soaking feeding, water bowl cleaning, etc., allows for a decent amount of air exchange.
> 
> I predict things will get a little better with each one of those vent you close.



already closed two vents on the back,, and tadaaaa temp an humid exactly just like what i want to be 
thx for all your information

another question,
warm soak, 27C is warm enough? btw my tort is baby star which is sleeping alot whole the time,does it safe to wake him up to give carapace mistings or soak?
and he looks like to run panic when i soak him on swallow water bowl which is no able to run, is there something wrong?
thx


----------



## Tom

32-35 would be a better soaking temperature. Its okay to mist or soak when he's laying around sleeping. Some of them take some time to get used to the soaks. Its okay. Its good for them. Make sure the water is not too deep, and that it stays the correct temp too. Its best to use a tall sided tub that they can't see through.


----------



## tortoise007

BTW, your enclosure looks epic! I might steal some of those ideas


----------



## andre_saltiva

Tom said:


> 32-35 would be a better soaking temperature. Its okay to mist or soak when he's laying around sleeping. Some of them take some time to get used to the soaks. Its okay. Its good for them. Make sure the water is not too deep, and that it stays the correct temp too. Its best to use a tall sided tub that they can't see through.


Thx for all your concern
Now i only need spray once a day to get humid 80-90% all the day, second spray make humid reach 94% ouchh
I'll give you update how your method working with star
Keep the hard work tom
Thx



tortoise007 said:


> BTW, your enclosure looks epic! I might steal some of those ideas


Which page did you see tom's enclosure? I can't find any


----------



## BK-JAY

About how much do these guys weigh now?


----------



## justino4444

Really hope this works out


----------



## Tom

BK-JAY said:


> About how much do these guys weigh now?



Gotta weigh them...




justino4444 said:


> Really hope this works out



Really hope what works out?


----------



## justino4444

Tom said:


> BK-JAY said:
> 
> 
> 
> About how much do these guys weigh now?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gotta weigh them...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> justino4444 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really hope this works out
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really hope what works out?
Click to expand...




Your little experiment


----------



## Tom

justino4444 said:


> Your little experiment



Not really sure what you mean. This thread is three and a half years old, and it has worked out very well. Much has been learned.


----------



## Yvonne G

And to call it a "little experiment" is quite demeaning. Tom has gone to great lengths to ensure a quality experiment...using many tortoises, not just one or two, and sharing his results with us for over 3 years. Not many of us can afford (time wise and money wise) to take on such an experiment with so many tortoises and it was and is great that he has done it and shared so openly with us.


----------



## justino4444

Tom said:


> justino4444 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your little experiment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not really sure what you mean. This thread is three and a half years old, and it has worked out very well. Much has been learned.
Click to expand...

Never mind I'm stupid haha




Yvonne G said:


> And to call it a "little experiment" is quite demeaning. Tom has gone to great lengths to ensure a quality experiment...using many tortoises, not just one or two, and sharing his results with us for over 3 years. Not many of us can afford (time wise and money wise) to take on such an experiment with so many tortoises and it was and is great that he has done it and shared so openly with us.



I'm sorry if I offended anyone and I feel really stupid


----------



## Tom

Justino, Did you read just the first page or two and then post a response? 

No offense taken at all, I was just trying to understand where you were coming from.


----------



## justino4444

Tom said:


> Justino, Did you read just the first page or two and then post a response?
> 
> No offense taken at all, I was just trying to understand where you were coming from.


That's exactly what I did didn't really feel like reading 14 pages


----------



## Team Gomberg

> That's exactly what I did didn't really feel like reading 14 pages



14pages? lol my screen shows me 45 pages!!!


----------



## justino4444

Team Gomberg said:


> That's exactly what I did didn't really feel like reading 14 pages
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 14pages? lol my screen shows me 45 pages!!!
Click to expand...

Two days later mine shows 23


----------



## Dizisdalife

Yvonne G said:


> And to call it a "little experiment" is quite demeaning. Tom has gone to great lengths to ensure a quality experiment...using many tortoises, not just one or two, and sharing his results with us for over 3 years. Not many of us can afford (time wise and money wise) to take on such an experiment with so many tortoises and it was and is great that he has done it and shared so openly with us.



My sentiments exactly. I came to the forum three years ago, having just rescued a baby sulcata. Tom's openness about his failures raising sulcata with the old methods and his excitement about the results he was getting using high humidity captured my attention. His explanations made sense to me and the methods seemed very practical. They were things that I could do as the keeper of a single tortoise on a limited budget. Today I have a 3 1/5 year old sulcata that is smooth growing, healthy, and I hope he is happy. He is sleeping outdoors in a safe, warm house that Tom designed and shared with all of us. And I will add that later today, since the temps will be above 70F, my sulcata will come out and graze on a grass seed mix that Tom found and shared with us all.


----------



## samsmom

45 pages filled with such important information and I've read every single page! This wonderful experimental journey that Tom has taken us on goes so far above and beyond what anyone has done for our beloved sullies. To say thank you doesn't seem enough for all the time and effort Tom has put into this experiment but THANK YOU Tom, from the bottom of my heart. I have a very healthy, happy and smooth 16 month old Samson because you chose to take the time to share.


----------



## BK-JAY

Ok Tom it's been 6 months or so since our last up-date pictures. Time to let us see how good these guys are looking. Thanks in advance


----------



## Tom

Ok. Its pouring rain right now. First time in over a year. They will be out and ready for new pics when the weather clears.


----------



## DeanS

Tom said:


> Ok. Its pouring rain right now. First time in over a year. They will be out and ready for new pics when the weather clears.



No kidding! I'm planning a two year update in May...replete with rain photos. These guys love the rain!


----------



## BK-JAY

Still waiting


----------



## BK-JAY

Nothing yet,


----------



## BK-JAY

We want pictures we want pictures we want pictures we want pictures lol


----------



## Tom

I hear ya'. I've been working on other things lately. Spring time ya' know...

What little free time I've had has been spent on other more pressing priorities. Tuck and Trey both covered themselves with mud, so its going to be a bit of a process to soak them, clean them up, weigh them, and get measurement photos and beauty photos.

I've been completing project after project, but the lists seems to keep growing anyway. Just recently I built a giant chameleon cage for a friend's birthday, a new night box for some new leopard tortoises, I had to remove the old underground buried 4x4x2' box from the leopard's enclosure and then fill in a hole that seemed like it was the size of a house, I had to collect my annual rainwater for shell spraying during our only "big" rainstorm for the last two years, then I had to build a bury-able planter box as part of my ongoing war to stop the gophers (I win every battle, but I'm still losing the war... until these new boxes go in. Look for my upcoming G.E.D. thread. Gopher Excluder Device.), then there has been my (failed) blue tongue skink breeding project (Seems you can't get any babies when all your adults turn out to be males. Go figure...), next was the new 4x8' planter/shade box in the new leopard tortoise enclosure, I had to trim up the frost damage on all my cactus stands to get them ready for spring and all the incoming new buds, and finally I am currently in the middle of plumbing and running pipes for irrigation in my four outdoor completely covered enclosures for hoses and automatic sprinklers.

So on top of all this, and daily maintenance of 47 tortoises and a whole bunch of other animals, and remembering to bring my camera, and running the business, and doing actual jobs to keep getting paid... {inhale, then sigh}... I've been a bit short on time.

I promise I will get to it soon.  And thank you for the reminders.


----------



## Tom

Here is Tuck enjoying some mud time.






Tuck is now a little over 15" and 20.6 pounds. He's always been the slowest grower of the bunch.






Trey has been a pig lately. Surrounded by weeds and grass, but still looking for handouts.





She is now just a little over 17" and 31.6 pounds.


----------



## Camryn

Just a question, but do tortoises pyramid in the wild?


----------



## enchilada

does it apply to other tortoise, such as radiated?


----------



## Tom

Tuck and Trey came up from the depths of their 22' deep underground burrow this after noon, apparently looking for food. I quickly granted their polite request with a tray of soaked Mazuri and Grassland food.













Tuck is around 25 pounds now and Trey around 35-40.


----------



## Tom

Camryn said:


> Just a question, but do tortoises pyramid in the wild?



Some species do, but there is much debate about it. Sulcatas don't.


----------



## Tom

enchilada said:


> does it apply to other tortoise, such as radiated?


Yes.


----------



## Camryn

Tom said:


> Some species do, but there is much debate about it. Sulcatas don't.


Hmm. Thank you.


----------



## Tom

Camryn said:


> Hmm. Thank you.



You're welcome!


----------



## Tom

Snapped a quick photo of Tuck and Trey sharing some cactus the other day. I just recently closed off their burrow entrance for the season, so they are still quite dirty from being underground all summer. Temps have been near 100 every day since June, so now that the highs are barely reaching 90, I get to see them all above ground much more often.


----------



## yni007

Nice tortoises tom, I have a quick question, does diet can cause pyramiding at all, coz i bought a tortoise that already pyramided, but somehow it was decreasing as it grow, is that cause by humidity or diet? Thx


----------



## Orlando Roman

Very interesting subject,I will be testing the humid factor very soon ,I m in Puerto Rico close to the Arecibo Observatory, humid weather year around ,some times I think I ' m in a rainforest because de amount of rain, sunny in the morning and rain around 2'o clock .. will keep you posted.


----------



## Yvonne G

yni007 said:


> Nice tortoises tom, I have a quick question, does diet can cause pyramiding at all, coz i bought a tortoise that already pyramided, but somehow it was decreasing as it grow, is that cause by humidity or diet? Thx



Here's MY OPINION, listed in order with most important first: Humidity/moisture, exercise, sunlight (UVB), diet


----------



## Tom

yni007 said:


> Nice tortoises tom, I have a quick question, does diet can cause pyramiding at all, coz i bought a tortoise that already pyramided, but somehow it was decreasing as it grow, is that cause by humidity or diet? Thx



I think a case could be made that many factors are inter-related, but diet is a minor factor in my experience.

Yours is probably growing better now due to environmental factors.


----------



## Rhonda Matteson

How are you keeping the humidity up? I have seen people keeping their young torts in a almost bog situation using foggers. I have an adoped Sulcata that was pyramiding and I decided to try the higher humidity. I keep the enclosure around 70 to 80% and I mist her burrow twice a day.

Thanks for all the great info! It makes me want to get a baby and try the higher humidity!! My first two were raised on a sorta dry enclosure, but they do not look too bad. I have started misting them daily and they outside in the summer, when it's warm enough.


----------



## Tom

Rhonda Matteson said:


> How are you keeping the humidity up? I have seen people keeping their young torts in a almost bog situation using foggers. I have an adoped Sulcata that was pyramiding and I decided to try the higher humidity. I keep the enclosure around 70 to 80% and I mist her burrow twice a day.
> 
> Thanks for all the great info! It makes me want to get a baby and try the higher humidity!! My first two were raised on a sorta dry enclosure, but they do not look too bad. I have started misting them daily and they outside in the summer, when it's warm enough.



Hello and welcome Rhonda. I'll need you to be more specific. How am I keeping the humidity up where?

What size and age is your adopted tortoise? When you say misting her burrow, do you mean indoors?


----------



## Rhonda Matteson

How do you keep the humidity up in your indoor enclosures for your young torts? I am not too sure of my adopted torts age, but I am sure it is under 2, and probability closer to 1.5years. I really need to contact the previous owner and get more info. Yes, I mist her indoor burrow/hide. I live in Indiana, so too cold right now to be outside!!

Also, how long do you leave the hatchlings at a higher humidity?


----------



## Tom

Rhonda Matteson said:


> How do you keep the humidity up in your indoor enclosures for your young torts? I am not too sure of my adopted torts age, but I am sure it is under 2, and probability closer to 1.5years. I really need to contact the previous owner and get more info. Yes, I mist her indoor burrow/hide. I live in Indiana, so too cold right now to be outside!!
> 
> Also, how long do you leave the hatchlings at a higher humidity?



I use closed chambers to maintain humidity. Makes life so easy and uses a fraction of the electricity. Like this:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/

Here is the rest of the care info:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.78361/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/


----------



## Rhonda Matteson

Thank you so much for information!! I know someone that advocates using a reptile fogger. To me, that is too much humidity and way over the top! These poor torts do live in the tropics!!


----------



## Tom

Rhonda Matteson said:


> Thank you so much for information!! I know someone that advocates using a reptile fogger. To me, that is too much humidity and way over the top! These poor torts do live in the tropics!!



In an open topped dry enclosure in a dry heated or air-conditioned home, it might not be too much. Every situation is different. I prefer to prevent the loss of humidity rather than adding more all the time to try to compensate for lost humidity in a dry room. So while I prefer to use closed chambers, humidifiers are not necessarily bad in all situations.

And actually these tortoises DO live in the tropics. Sulcata territory actually straddles the Tropic of Cancer, so some of the native range is in and some out. Sulcata babies hatch during the monsoon season where it is hot, humid and rainy with puddles and marshes in abundance.


----------



## Rhonda Matteson

Thank you for all the great info. Do you do research with Rodney Pettway? He copy and pastes your info on Facebook on several pages. But he never states his source. I would like to share your information but I want to make sure you get credit for it, if that's ok.


----------



## Tom

Rhonda Matteson said:


> Thank you for all the great info. Do you do research with Rodney Pettway? He copy and pastes your info on Facebook on several pages. But he never states his source. I would like to share your information but I want to make sure you get credit for it, if that's ok.



Rodney is a friend and always asks permission to post my info. We converse regularly. I don't care about credit. I just want good info to get out there any way possible. I care about tortoises being healthy and bad info being eradicated. I don't care who gets credit for it. You are welcome to copy/paste my info, or message me anytime.


----------



## Rhonda Matteson

Thank you! I like to give credit to the people that have done all work. I do not want to post anything making it sound like the work is mine.


----------



## Rhonda Matteson

How old is Daisy in this pic?


----------



## Tom

Rhonda Matteson said:


> How old is Daisy in this pic?



She is right around 4 in that pic, if memory serves...


----------



## Rhonda Matteson

What was her weight?


----------



## Tom

Rhonda Matteson said:


> What was her weight?



Don't remember. Probably around 20-25 pounds. She is now around 50 pounds and around 22-23" in length.


----------



## Rhonda Matteson

And how old now? I like seeing other people's torts growth rates


----------



## Tom

Rhonda Matteson said:


> And how old now? I like seeing other people's torts growth rates



She hatched in September of '07. So she just turned 8. It should be noted that she hardly grew at all for the first couple of years, due to her dry start. She started growing at a more normal rate right around her third year. By comparison, she lives with Tuck, who was one of my "End of Pyramiding" thread tortoises that hatched in May of 2010. Tuck was started with the "wet" routine and now at four and a half years old, she is almost the same size as Daisy. 21" and 45-50 pounds. I suspect she will be larger than Daisy within the next few months to a year.


----------



## russian/sulcata/tortoise

Tom my Zooboo just turned 3 years old a couple days ago! she/he is 9 inches long but i don't know here weight. where can i buy a scale? also how big will she be by 2016?


----------



## Zeko

russian/sulcata/tortoise said:


> Tom my Zooboo just turned 3 years old a couple days ago! she/he is 9 inches long but i don't know here weight. where can i buy a scale? also how big will she be by 2016?



Bigger


----------



## russian/sulcata/tortoise

Zeko said:


> Bigger


oh thank you so much for you amazing answer!


----------



## Zeko

russian/sulcata/tortoise said:


> oh thank you so much for you amazing answer!



No problem. I'm always here for you!


----------



## el_ote

almost got in trouble laughing out loud at work. 
lol


----------



## leigti

russian/sulcata/tortoise said:


> Tom my Zooboo just turned 3 years old a couple days ago! she/he is 9 inches long but i don't know here weight. where can i buy a scale? also how big will she be by 2016?


Do you have regular people scale at your house? Way yourself holding her and then weigh yourself not holding her and that will tell you how much she weighs.


----------



## @ndrew

Tom said:


> She hatched in September of '07. So she just turned 8. It should be noted that she hardly grew at all for the first couple of years, due to her dry start. She started growing at a more normal rate right around her third year. By comparison, she lives with Tuck, who was one of my "End of Pyramiding" thread tortoises that hatched in May of 2010. Tuck was started with the "wet" routine and now at four and a half years old, she is almost the same size as Daisy. 21" and 45-50 pounds. I suspect she will be larger than Daisy within the next few months to a year.


Hey tom go to page 22 in this forum.


----------



## Tom

Its been a while since the last update. I don't have weights, but they are getting big.

Here is Trey enjoying a warm soak:




And here is Tuck enjoying the mud hole with Miss Daisy in the background:


----------



## Heardofturtles

Wow, they look great. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## kirsty Johnston

Tom said:


> Interesting that you should say this. I had a conversation with Richard Fife a couple of weeks ago and one of the things he told me about, was spraying the carapace. He felt like that alone would prevent pyramiding, but was not ready to go public with it, until he had done some more research on it.
> 
> Yours looks very young in the first pic. Do you know the source? Did the breeder keep it humid? It looks so perfectly smooth, that I'd expect it to be from Richard Fife. Do you know the age? I can only hope mine grow up that smooth.
> 
> Another thing that I've been trying to figure out is when, exactly, does pyramiding start. It seems to me that whatever pattern is established in the first few weeks will continue. Several breeders and experienced keepers have told me that if you can get them smooth to 4-6" they won't pyramid no matter what you do after that. By contrast, if they've already started pyramiding at a young age you pretty much can't stop it.
> 
> I'd love to know more about your set-up and climate conditions there. What substrate did you use for that fellow? Soaking routine? Water dish, or not? What size and type of enclosure? Sunshine, or not? UV bulbs, or not? Supplements, or not?
> 
> Sorry for all the questions, its just so rare to see a year old sulcata so smooth like that. He's got a pretty high dome too.
> 
> This has just given me a thought... We all refer to pyramiding as a raised scute. What if its not a raised scute, but a sunken valley between the scutes. If I looked at Daisy from the side and mentally brought all the valley's between her raised scutes up to the level of the tops of her pyramids she'd have a high dome just like that. Maybe pyramiding isn't the overgrowth of the center of the scute, but the UNDERGROWTH of the edges.
> 
> This has been one of my major obstacles in eradicating the scourge of pyramiding. No one, including me, seems to be able to really explain the exact mechanism behind it. Is it malformation of the underlying bone? Is it merely the upper keratinous layers? Both, in some combination? I'm left with trying to see what causes or prevents it. ALL the evidence (both scientific and anecdotal) I've seen points to humidity/moisture/hydration or the significant lack thereof.



What's really interesting is that when I obtained my tort he was beginning to pyramid pretty bad. They said that they bathed him once a week.
I soak my tort every day and now I've had him a couple of years you can see where he's grown and his shell is perfectly smoothe... Obviously he still has the initial pyramiding that he had when I 1st got him but the key is where he's grown is smoothe.
I would be totally convinced that soaking everyday if it weren't for the fact that his diet and substrate were equally shocking. Interesting reading! Might take me a while to get through all the other post as well though


----------



## Redstrike

Wow Tom, they look fantastic! Trey is especially smooth.


----------



## Tom

Redstrike said:


> Wow Tom, they look fantastic! Trey is especially smooth.



She is a big girl too. Nearly 50 pounds. I gotta get an exact weight and length for the next update...


----------



## monsteraldabra

hello Tom, 

any experience with aldabra tortoise Tom? i mean are they (babies) suitable to be kept in closed chamber with high humidity and 79-81F?
how about shell rot in aldabra? because you said that sulcata never show sign of shell rot.


----------



## Tom

monsteraldabra said:


> hello Tom,
> 
> any experience with aldabra tortoise Tom? i mean are they (babies) suitable to be kept in closed chamber with high humidity and 79-81F?
> how about shell rot in aldabra? because you said that sulcata never show sign of shell rot.



I don't have much Aldabra experience. They don't do well in my climate, so I don't keep them. I have never heard of an Aldabra with shell rot.


----------



## monsteraldabra

a friend of mine send this picture few minutes ago, maybe he read my questios to you..

i believe this aldabra has a shell rot, said that this aldabra kept in an outdoor garden.. 

poor baby..



guys, always CHECK your tortoise plastron regularly please.


----------



## Tom

Its been a long time since I updated. I don't have weights, but here are some sizes. @maggie3fan This is for you! 

This is Mr. Tuck. 5 and a half years old now. Its been cold and ugly here, so not the best pics. Its too cold to soak them so you get to see his usual dirty appearance while resting in his night box. I think is weight would be around 30-35 pounds now.




Here is Ms. Trey. She is a good looking girl. She's got a big blocky head. She was 42 pounds at her last weight in, but she's put on some size since then. I would estimate her at over 50 pounds now.




My thread for my Sudanese tortoise has been closed, so I thought I'd post an update here. Seems appropriate since they were also an end of pyramiding experiment. This is one of the two biggest ones. I still CANNOT tell the sexes on these two biggest ones. I have five left. One is an obvious male (flashing, longer gulars, wide "V" anal scutes, huge tail...) and two are obvious females, but I cannot tell on the two biggest. They are right in the middle. Could go either way.


----------



## samsmom

I don't see a difference between tuck and trey and the Sundanese tort! What are the differences?


----------



## Anyfoot

Tom said:


> Its been a long time since I updated. I don't have weights, but here are some sizes. @maggie3fan This is for you!
> 
> This is Mr. Tuck. 2 and a half years old now. Its been cold and ugly here, so not the best pics. Its too cold to soak them so you get to see his usual dirty appearance while resting in his night box. I think is weight would be around 30-35 pounds now.
> View attachment 159280
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Ms. Trey. She is a good looking girl. She's got a big blocky head. She was 42 pounds at her last weight in, but she's put on some size since then. I would estimate her at over 50 pounds now.
> View attachment 159281
> 
> 
> 
> My thread for my Sudanese tortoise has been closed, so I thought I'd post an update here. Seems appropriate since they were also an end of pyramiding experiment. This is one of the two biggest ones. I still CANNOT tell the sexes on these two biggest ones. I have five left. One is an obvious male (flashing, longer gulars, wide "V" anal scutes, huge tail...) and two are obvious females, but I cannot tell on the two biggest. They are right in the middle. Could go either way.
> View attachment 159282


 They look gorgeous Tom. Perfectly symmetrical too. Nice job.


----------



## Tom

samsmom said:


> I don't see a difference between tuck and trey and the Sundanese tort! What are the differences?



Sudanese tortoises, if these are really Sudanese, get twice as large and have a much higher dome when they are mature adults.

I've not seen any differences in the babies or juveniles. If they hit 100 pounds and stop growing, I will know they are not Sudans. If they grow to 250 pounds and look like a tan Galop, well, you know...


----------



## samsmom

So you'll know in about 10-15 years! Be sure to let me know! Lol


----------



## Maggie Cummings

Oh, he's beautiful Tom. Bigger than I thought, but done, he's so smooth and good looking. Ms. Trey and the bottom one certaining have a lot of new growth lines. Well, done


----------



## Anyfoot

samsmom said:


> I don't see a difference between tuck and trey and the Sundanese tort! What are the differences?


It's easy to the trained eye. Sudan's have a dot on the middle scute.


----------



## Redstrike

Wow, that's some smooth growth!


----------



## Ansh

I can't believe how smooth their shells are. Truly the "end of pyramiding". Wish there was such conclusive evidence for star torts...


----------



## Tom

Ansh said:


> I can't believe how smooth their shells are. Truly the "end of pyramiding". Wish there was such conclusive evidence for star torts...



The majority of my stars are this smooth too.

Closed chambers with monsoon season conditions work wonders.


----------



## Tom

samsmom said:


> So you'll know in about 10-15 years! Be sure to let me know! Lol



Ha! Making a mental note...

In 15 years call samsmom and let her know about Sudanese torts...


----------



## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> It's easy to the trained eye. Sudan's have a dot on the middle scute.



Right! Some have a blue dot. Others have a green, silver, orange, purple or pink dot!


----------



## Josh Casenave

Tom said:


> Its been a long time since I updated. I don't have weights, but here are some sizes. @maggie3fan This is for you!
> 
> This is Mr. Tuck. 2 and a half years old now. Its been cold and ugly here, so not the best pics. Its too cold to soak them so you get to see his usual dirty appearance while resting in his night box. I think is weight would be around 30-35 pounds now.
> View attachment 159280
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Ms. Trey. She is a good looking girl. She's got a big blocky head. She was 42 pounds at her last weight in, but she's put on some size since then. I would estimate her at over 50 pounds now.
> View attachment 159281
> 
> 
> 
> My thread for my Sudanese tortoise has been closed, so I thought I'd post an update here. Seems appropriate since they were also an end of pyramiding experiment. This is one of the two biggest ones. I still CANNOT tell the sexes on these two biggest ones. I have five left. One is an obvious male (flashing, longer gulars, wide "V" anal scutes, huge tail...) and two are obvious females, but I cannot tell on the two biggest. They are right in the middle. Could go either way.
> View attachment 159282


Hello Tom, I have read that humidity causes respiratory infections. Did this ever occur as hatchlings?


----------



## Tom

Josh Casenave said:


> Hello Tom, I have read that humidity causes respiratory infections. Did this ever occur as hatchlings?



Cold temperatures can cause respiratory infections. Humidity does not. I've raised 100's of hatchlings with high humidity, simulating the African rainy season that they hatch into, and never had one problem. Baby sulcatas should not drop below 80 degrees, day or night.


----------



## JohnnyDigester

Tom! I tracked you down from a YouTube video and now on here, I need help with my 2 young sulcatas. I have had them about a year and 6 months, they are probablaly 2 to 3 years old maybe. I rescued them from a lady in Northern California, they were kept in a glass tank inside with no lights and nothing but a slippery glass floor to walk on. Upon getting me they both had severe pyramiding, both had super soft shells, and both had flat back legs, as they dragged themselves around in that tank. So time has gone by but I don't know what else I can do to help them... they both live outside, they have a 10'x10' pen with freshly grown sulcatafood.com grass seed, small river rocks in patches to help them walk better, and a box I built for them with a heat lamp to keep it about 70 degrees in the winter time, I am located in so cal, oh and yes a water dish as well. So in that time their shells have become hard again, they are out everyday getting sun and exercise unless it's raining, I give them turnip greens with calcium powder 1 to 2 times a week, and try to soak them 1 to 2 times a week. I have been so worried about them, and I don't know what else to do. The pyramids are still there, both shells have hardened up nicely, the smaller one walks normal now, the larger one still drags himself around but has improved a lot, the rocks really force him to walk correctly. They both had a vet visit when I got them since they had a respatory infection, running nose and eyes... but they have been in good health since. I am probably forgetting some details but that's the majority of my story. any help you could possible offer? I would greatly appreciate it. The smaller one is Barnaby, the large one is Harold.


----------



## Tom

JohnnyDigester said:


> Tom! I tracked you down from a YouTube video and now on here, I need help with my 2 young sulcatas. I have had them about a year and 6 months, they are probablaly 2 to 3 years old maybe. I rescued them from a lady in Northern California, they were kept in a glass tank inside with no lights and nothing but a slippery glass floor to walk on. Upon getting me they both had severe pyramiding, both had super soft shells, and both had flat back legs, as they dragged themselves around in that tank. So time has gone by but I don't know what else I can do to help them... they both live outside, they have a 10'x10' pen with freshly grown sulcatafood.com grass seed, small river rocks in patches to help them walk better, and a box I built for them with a heat lamp to keep it about 70 degrees in the winter time, I am located in so cal, oh and yes a water dish as well. So in that time their shells have become hard again, they are out everyday getting sun and exercise unless it's raining, I give them turnip greens with calcium powder 1 to 2 times a week, and try to soak them 1 to 2 times a week. I have been so worried about them, and I don't know what else to do. The pyramids are still there, both shells have hardened up nicely, the smaller one walks normal now, the larger one still drags himself around but has improved a lot, the rocks really force him to walk correctly. They both had a vet visit when I got them since they had a respatory infection, running nose and eyes... but they have been in good health since. I am probably forgetting some details but that's the majority of my story. any help you could possible offer? I would greatly appreciate it. The smaller one is Barnaby, the large one is Harold.



Sounds like you are doing a pretty good job. Here is what I would suggest:

I would get rid of the heat lamp and replace it with a Radiant heat panel and a Kane heat mat all on one thermostat. I'd set the thermostat to 85 in winter and 75 in summer.

I'd soak 2-3 times a week.

I'd make the pen 3 times that size.

I'd separate the two. Tortoises don't do well in pairs.

Here is some more info in case you haven't found this all yet:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

Here is an example of one of my night boxes with the type of heating I suggest. Over head lamp and ceramic heating elements desiccate the carapace terribly. Its worse on larger ones, but still not good for smaller ones like yours. This carapace desiccation tends to worsen the pyramiding and in some cases actually damages, or "slow burns", the keratin layer on the top of the carapace.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/


----------



## JohnnyDigester

Thank you so much for all the help. I really like your house you built, very well done, mine are similar in design just taller to allow my heat lamp with ceramic bulb to be high enough to avoid burning them, they do the job of heating the box but I will look into the heat pads I like the way you set them up. Thank you so much for your help and I will hope for the best for my little ones, time and patience will tell. At least I can find some peace and joy knowing my torts are way better off than they were. Not to go off on another topic but they have been together this whole time, they get along well. I know they are solitary animals, maybe in the future as they get bigger I will separate their current house. Thank you so much again and continue to keep up the great work you are doing with these animals.


----------



## glitch4200

@Tom I think this is huge. Brand new Research literature on pyramiding in tortoises and it's causes. This is as recent as December 2015.
Taken from this journal. 



This article name is:



I just shared this in my other thread. They do some very groundbreaking research in my opinion and smash alot of old outdated theories. 

The full article can be found here:
http://www.exoticpetmedicine.com/article/S1557-5063(15)00185-8/fulltext

Let me know what you think.


----------



## Yvonne G

I have a hard time concentrating when reading scientific stuff, so was only able to skim the article. Did they have any smooth tortoises as a result of the study? Or were some just less pyramided than others? I have actually raised perfectly smooth babies using the humid method.


----------



## JohnnyDigester

I read the article and all the sub sections of the study... my brain hurts, English please! What I take from this study was night heat was not good and increased pyramiding? Humidity and diet had no effect on either group? Maybe someone else can clarify, too many big words... From everything I have read it seems multiple factors cause it, light, exercise, heat, humidity, lack of calcium, seem to be the main ones. My 2 juveniles I rescued are ruined from being stuck in a glass tank most of their lives with no light or proper substrate, who knows what they were fed. I lean more towards humidity proper heat diet and exercise to be the main problem for these guys, in my opinion. And furthermore with Tom producing healthy smooth baby torts using his humidity method with proper diet and exercise light etc.... I am almost shocked they said humidity had no effect on them? unless I am reading it wrong... time for another cup of coffee...


----------



## Yvonne G

Well, I didn't see any pictures of actual "smooth" tortoises, and my guess is that the group with less night heat pyramided LESS than the other group, but really wasn't smooth at all.

The study has benefit. There probably should be a slight drop in night time temperature. When the sun goes down, it has to cool off a bit, even in Africa. But those of us who use the hot and humid method, have to be careful to not allow that drop to be too much. Cool and humid is not a good thing for babies.


----------



## Tom

Yvonne G said:


> Well, I didn't see any pictures of actual "smooth" tortoises, and my guess is that the group with less night heat pyramided LESS than the other group, but really wasn't smooth at all.
> 
> The study has benefit. There probably should be a slight drop in night time temperature. When the sun goes down, it has to cool off a bit, even in Africa. But those of us who use the hot and humid method, have to be careful to not allow that drop to be too much. Cool and humid is not a good thing for babies.



Haven't read the study yet, but my ambient in my enclosures drops to about 80 at night and creeps up into the low 90s most days.


----------



## Anyfoot

glitch4200 said:


> @Tom I think this is huge. Brand new Research literature on pyramiding in tortoises and it's causes. This is as recent as December 2015.
> Taken from this journal.
> View attachment 167218
> 
> 
> This article name is:
> View attachment 167219
> 
> 
> I just shared this in my other thread. They do some very groundbreaking research in my opinion and smash alot of old outdated theories.
> 
> The full article can be found here:
> http://www.exoticpetmedicine.com/article/S1557-5063(15)00185-8/fulltext
> 
> Let me know what you think.



Am I understanding the set up correctly. 

Room temp at night is 17c and in the day 29c. 
Treatment subjects had a heat mat on 24/7 connected to a thermostat. 
Controlled subjects had a heat mat on at night only.

All subjects had heat mats on at night from 1900 to 0700.


----------



## ashleighmaylouise

Hi, I'm new to keeping a tortoise and I'm worried about pyramiding, I have a Redfoot tortoise called Rafael and I've had him for just over 1 week. However, I have no idea how old he is, but apparently he's 2 years old and from what I've seen on the Internet, he doesn't look it. I do mist his viv twice on a daily basis and I bathe him in warm water for 5-10 mins daily. I also live in the UK, England, so as you might know the weather is never really too clever outside for him to be out there on a daily basis or even permanently.
I was wondering when I do mist how much should I do each time and so on. Same with how much food to give him daily, I have briefly read through this page briefly and you find that people with personal experience have better advice.
I'm worried I'm doing everything wrong, the more I read, the more I get anxious that I'm not keeping him healthy


----------



## Tom

They baby has not been kept in the correct conditions. Since I don't keep that species, you'd be better served by getting specific advice from someone who does. Pop over to the RedFoot section and look up some names of experienced keepers.


----------



## jockma

I have a pyramided RF. Make a topic over in the RF section and I'll answer any questions you have.

I was told mine was "probably 6 months old" despite him being twice the size of yours, I wouldn't be surprised if they gave you an inaccurate age. Thankfully size matters more than age when it comes to care.


----------



## Kenn Batingal

,@@@


----------



## MadieM

This guy is giving two torts away because he doesn't have the time to take care of them. When I asked him what he feeds them he said "fruit and all sorts of things! they're like little pigs!" my stomach churned and i then asked him what does he keep them inside? he said he has never let them outside but want's to build them a little house, for now he has them both in a terrarium tank that they're both outgrowing and the medium used is rabbit pellets. As of today I am going to build them both their own separate pens and rescue them tomorrow but do their shells look okay?


----------



## saginawhxc

I'm not the forum expert or anything, but despite the fact that their shells are decently pyramided for that age, I think they look okay. I think they are small enough that if you introduce proper husbandry you can introduce proper growth from here on out. I think they will be okay.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

MadieM said:


> This guy is giving two torts away because he doesn't have the time to take care of them. When I asked him what he feeds them he said "fruit and all sorts of things! they're like little pigs!" my stomach churned and i then asked him what does he keep them inside? he said he has never let them outside but want's to build them a little house, for now he has them both in a terrarium tank that they're both outgrowing and the medium used is rabbit pellets. As of today I am going to build them both their own separate pens and rescue them tomorrow but do their shells look okay?


Bit bumpy, but nothing to panic about.
They're actually rather pretty!


----------



## MadieM

Thanks guys! I've seen some gnarly pyramiding at their worst on the web.  Can you guys tell what their ages are or do i have to measure them?


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

You cannot tell the age of a tortoise unless you have it's hatch date. 
Measuring doesn't really help as they can grow at vastly differing rates depending on conditions kept in, diet, health and genetics.
These are not hatchlings, obviously, but don't look full grown either.


----------



## MadieM

hmmm....fingers crossed he know's when their hatch date was. Said he got them from a breeder and they were both little babies. Also can male and female be together? either way I still want to build their own pens. Thank you for helping me


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Pleasure, but we may have to get this transferred off the pyramiding thread. 
Best to keep them separated. These tortoises are territorial and don't need or want friends. They will bully, maybe fight and possibly injure or even kill each other. A male can also 'pester' a female to death if she can't escape.


----------



## JohnnyDigester

they look great to me, they don't look like the 2 I rescued so ya... mine were kept in a tank as well with no lights and newspaper... who knows what they ate.


MadieM said:


> This guy is giving two torts away because he doesn't have the time to take care of them. When I asked him what he feeds them he said "fruit and all sorts of things! they're like little pigs!" my stomach churned and i then asked him what does he keep them inside? he said he has never let them outside but want's to build them a little house, for now he has them both in a terrarium tank that they're both outgrowing and the medium used is rabbit pellets. As of today I am going to build them both their own separate pens and rescue them tomorrow but do their shells look okay?


----------



## MadieM

JohnnyDigester said:


> they look great to me, they don't look like the 2 I rescued so ya... mine were kept in a tank as well with no lights and newspaper... who knows what they ate.




Good thing you got them when you did and they're in a much safer environment


----------



## JohnnyDigester

MadieM said:


> Good thing you got them when you did and they're in a much safer environment


thanks, same to you as well. the sooner you get them the better off they will be. thanks for stepping up and helping out those torts.


----------



## chompychomp

What is pyramiding


----------



## JohnnyDigester

read this. http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Turtles-Tortoises/Turtle-Care/Pyramiding-in-Tortoises/


----------



## JaySparks

Tom said:


> Very good question. It is a very reasonable question given the current state of sulcata knowledge. Let me tell you how I got to this point and also where I am.
> 
> In the late 80's and early 90's I worked in pet shops down by the beach in L.A. It was pretty common for people to bring in sick CDTs that were living in their backyards. The cold, clammy, beach air would cause these guys to get URTIs. We'd ship them inland to dryer, hotter areas and they'd usually get all better. So when CB sulcatas and leopards started hitting the scene around this time, the common knowledge was that since they were from the African desert, you better keep them hot and dry or they would get a URTI, just like the CDTs kept near the beach. So all of my early sulcatas went into "beef jerky maker" style set-ups. Dry substrate, hot bulb AND CHE. No water bowl, to cut down on humidity. I would soak them periodically, but then dry them off with a towel before putting them back in their hot box.
> 
> This system produced copious quantities of seemingly healthy, yet pyramided tortoises. For nearly 20 years I banged my head against the wall unable to figure out why they were pyramiding, even though I was doing everything "right". Since my job takes me all over the world, I was always checking out the local tortoises. I saw leopards in South Africa in 1999 and again in 2005. I saw smooth sulcatas that seemed to be doing fine in FL and Louisiana with no sign of any URTI. Early on, I assumed they were wild caught because they were so smooth. The people didn't know anything about proper tortoise care, so I (incorrectly) assumed that their smooth tortoises were really wild caught and they just didn't know any better.
> 
> Fast forward to 2007. I get hold of a copy of "Leopard Tortoises" by Richard and Jerry Fife. I've read tons of reptile and tortoise books, but none had ever mentioned humidity for baby sulcatas and leopards before. 15 lightbulbs went off in my head. DING! Everything, all the puzzle pieces, started coming together in my head. I had seen thousands of tortoises in South Africa, but not one single baby anywhere. DING! Maybe those people in FL and Louisiana weren't as ignorant as I had ignorantly assumed. DING! The beach tortoises were sick because it was cold AND damp. DING! Babies stay hidden in humid places, like root balls and burrows. DING! Etc... MYSTERY SOLVED!!!
> 
> I was quite upset with my self for not putting it all together sooner, but nobody else had either. Even the Fife's discovered it quite by accident. If anybody knew about it before them, they weren't telling anybody and they certainly weren't publishing it in any books. Thanks, again, to the Fife's for changing the tortoise world.
> 
> So its 2007, I've just had a 20 year mystery solved for me, what do I do now? Go get a new baby and try it out, of course! Enter Daisy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is Daisy, the day after I got her at 3 months old. You can see that she already had significant pyramiding. I stuck her in her enclosure on sani-chips (my usual tortoise substrate at that time) and gave her a nice humid hide box with some bed-a-beast. After a few months the pyramiding showed no sign of slowing down. I was very frustrated. I started talking to people and decided that I needed to make the whole enclosure more humid. Went to Lowes and got the orchid bark mix. Still did nothing. Next I covered the top, made the substrate much more damp and humidified the room. After a year of gradually making it more and more humid and wet, I realized two things. She was not going to get a respiratory infection or shell rot AND the pyramiding wasn't stopping. This where where I realized the next piece of the puzzle. Humidity will PREVENT pyramiding in a hatchling, NOT STOP pyramiding once it starts. Daisy's new growth does seem to be coming in smoother. Over the course of 2009 I made it wetter and wetter in Daisy's enclosure just to see what, if anything it would do. It has been SWAMPY in there for a year and a half now. There has been absolutely no ill effect and the new growth does appear to be smoothing out.
> 
> So in Jan 2010, I discover TFO at the reptile show. I met Littlefoot and talked to a pretty TFO girl. Finding this forum was like breaking open the Hoover Dam for me. The information flow was suddenly gushing after 20 years of a tiny, slow trickle. I learned that the humidity thing was already circulating out in the tortoise world. I learned about Terry K. and TerryO spraying the redfoot shells and growing them as smooth as any wild caught. I learned about dehydration being a problem in babies of desert species (Thanks Danny). I immediately began hitting Daisy with the shotgun approach. All wet all the time. Soaks, sprays, humidifiers, food spraying, substrate wetting, etc... Now understand, I've been keeping sulcatas for 20 years. I got my first turtle 30 years ago. I know what to watch for as far as health problems AND what to do about it should any surface. None did. Still haven't. Not in any way. I've actually considered making Daisy's tub into an aquatic habitat with a few haul outs just to see what would happen. That's really the only way it could be any wetter.
> 
> After two years of all wet all the time, I knew that water ain't gonna hurt a sulcata. Now with my hatchlings coming, I had to make a plan. Not too long ago Danny did a post suggesting that pyramiding was due to major internal organ damage caused by chronic dehydration in hatchlings. Danny's post explained that they could dehydrate even over night in a typical dry tortoise set up. Breathing humid air helps to prevent this dehydration.
> 
> I was determined to grow these babies smooth, so if dehydration is a factor in pyramiding, it won't be for mine. I knew that lots of water won't hurt a sulcata as long as the temps are kept up in the 80's, sooooooo here we are.
> 
> I have not ever seen any evidence that too much hydration is bad for a tortoise. If they aren't getting URTIs or any kind of shell rot, what is your concern about all the water? Another thing to consider is that I live in a very hot, dry area. What works for me might be too much for someone in the San Francisco Bay area or South Florida.
> 
> If you soak twice a day and spray 5 times a day and your tortoise still pyramids, something will have to be terribly wrong. But remember: Humidity, moisture and hydration will PREVENT pyramiding. It will not necessarily STOP pyramiding that is already underway.
> 
> How is it replicating natural conditions? I don't know if it is or isn't. I honestly don't know what natural conditions for a wild sulcata hatchling are. Do you? I've never even seen one in the wild. I do know they stay underground in humid burrows. Mine come out whenever it rains and drink and soak in puddles, even at night. I don't know how wild hatchlings find enough food underground, so they must come up some of the time, some how. I can look up the weather in those areas and see the above ground temps and humidity, but I don't think that has much to do with a baby. I don't think replicating the wild is always a good thing. I think replicating whatever is best for them in captivity is best.
> 
> What is my justification for all this? Glad you asked. Here it is:



Is this the same tortoise? is the bottom picture after or before?


----------



## Tom

JaySparks said:


> Is this the same tortoise? is the bottom picture after or before?



No. First one is Daisy. Lower pic is one of my hatchlings that was raised humid and hydrated.


----------



## JaySparks

Tom said:


> No. First one is Daisy. Lower pic is one of my hatchlings that was raised humid and hydrated.


Lovely shell. Is diet still a contribution towards pyramiding? and what did you have inside the humid hide was it cocoir?


----------



## Tom

JaySparks said:


> Lovely shell. Is diet still a contribution towards pyramiding? and what did you have inside the humid hide was it cocoir?



Diet really has little to do with pyramiding, except that diet controls growth rate to a degree. Pyramiding is _caused_ by growth in conditions that are too dry. If conditions are too dry, it doesn't matter what you do or don't feed. The tortoise will pyramid. Conversely, if conditions are warm and humid and the tortoise is well hydrated, they will grow perfectly smooth even if you feed a sulcata cat food every day. Not suggesting anyone do this, but I have seen it and the tortoises were smooth, but very large for their age.


----------



## JaySparks

Tom said:


> Diet really has little to do with pyramiding, except that diet controls growth rate to a degree. Pyramiding is _caused_ by growth in conditions that are too dry. If conditions are too dry, it doesn't matter what you do or don't feed. The tortoise will pyramid. Conversely, if conditions are warm and humid and the tortoise is well hydrated, they will grow perfectly smooth even if you feed a sulcata cat food every day. Not suggesting anyone do this, but I have seen it and the tortoises were smooth, but very large for their age.


I'm currently keeping my tortoise at 80% humidity and I am seeing some improvements on the shell.


----------



## no one

I have finally read this whole thread. Thank you for all this information. I have learned a lot. Between this thread and a site called star tortoises. net.
Nice to know my findings on humidity are correct. I usually go overboard carring, but now I know not with the humidity. I was pretty anxious about my new little Indian Star Tortoise. Thinking I was never going to be able to get him nice and healty growing like a Star should. All the Star I see over here are pyramid. So I was really looking into humidity and doing everything I can. But was affraid I was over doing it, like I tend to do things. And then I found this thread. So glad I did!!

Oh, and loved the pictures!! Thank you Tom!! I really hope I will grow a nice smooth shell on my Sterretje like you did your Sulcata's.


----------



## Tom

*debora* said:


> I have finally read this whole thread. Thank you for all this information. I have learned a lot. Between this thread and a site called star tortoises. net.
> Nice to know my findings on humidity are correct. I usually go overboard carring, but now I know not with the humidity. I was pretty anxious about my new little Indian Star Tortoise. Thinking I was never going to be able to get him nice and healty growing like a Star should. All the Star I see over here are pyramid. So I was really looking into humidity and doing everything I can. But was affraid I was over doing it, like I tend to do things. And then I found this thread. So glad I did!!
> 
> Oh, and loved the pictures!! Thank you Tom!! I really hope I will grow a nice smooth shell on my Sterretje like you did your Sulcata's.



You'll love this thread from @Markw84 
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/our-new-closed-chamber-for-our-new-group-of-tortoises.138430/


----------



## no one

Thank you Tom, I will go and take a look.


----------



## Tseeman

Tom said:


> Interesting that you should say this. I had a conversation with Richard Fife a couple of weeks ago and one of the things he told me about, was spraying the carapace. He felt like that alone would prevent pyramiding, but was not ready to go public with it, until he had done some more research on it.
> 
> Yours looks very young in the first pic. Do you know the source? Did the breeder keep it humid? It looks so perfectly smooth, that I'd expect it to be from Richard Fife. Do you know the age? I can only hope mine grow up that smooth.
> 
> Another thing that I've been trying to figure out is when, exactly, does pyramiding start. It seems to me that whatever pattern is established in the first few weeks will continue. Several breeders and experienced keepers have told me that if you can get them smooth to 4-6" they won't pyramid no matter what you do after that. By contrast, if they've already started pyramiding at a young age you pretty much can't stop it.
> 
> I'd love to know more about your set-up and climate conditions there. What substrate did you use for that fellow? Soaking routine? Water dish, or not? What size and type of enclosure? Sunshine, or not? UV bulbs, or not? Supplements, or not?
> 
> Sorry for all the questions, its just so rare to see a year old sulcata so smooth like that. He's got a pretty high dome too.
> 
> This has just given me a thought... We all refer to pyramiding as a raised scute. What if its not a raised scute, but a sunken valley between the scutes. If I looked at Daisy from the side and mentally brought all the valley's between her raised scutes up to the level of the tops of her pyramids she'd have a high dome just like that. Maybe pyramiding isn't the overgrowth of the center of the scute, but the UNDERGROWTH of the edges.
> 
> This has been one of my major obstacles in eradicating the scourge of pyramiding. No one, including me, seems to be able to really explain the exact mechanism behind it. Is it malformation of the underlying bone? Is it merely the upper keratinous layers? Both, in some combination? I'm left with trying to see what causes or prevents it. ALL the evidence (both scientific and anecdotal) I've seen points to humidity/moisture/hydration or the significant lack thereof.


Hey Tom I'm a new owner of a lepoard tortiose do you see signs of eakry pyramiding I read you typed once it starts it can't be stopped? Now you have me extremely worried I ruined my baby


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Maybe slightly, but not much to see. 
It cannot be reversed but it can be stopped from getting any worse.
Ensure your humidity is correct and keep up with the soaks.


----------



## LisaLew

Hello! I believe it’s been about a decade? Any updates on your experiment?


----------



## LisaLew

LisaLew said:


> Hello! I believe it’s been about a decade? Any updates on your experiment?


Oh wait! I missed a whole page. ?


----------



## christinaland128

@Tom many of these helpful posts are no longer showing pictures!?

is there a way to retrieve them or repost?


----------



## Jasminemmm

All the pictures from 10 years ago are now gone... ? I’m thinking that from now on, I need to post the pictures in the thread as well as to make them as attachments.


----------



## Yossarian

Jasminemmm said:


> All the pictures from 10 years ago are now gone... ? I’m thinking that from now on, I need to post the pictures in the thread as well as to make them as attachments.



Im not sure the forum allowed direct uploads of images back then. All those images that dont load are links to external image hosts. As long as you upload the images directly to the TFO servers then as long as they decide to host the data it will remain viewable.


----------



## Jasminemmm

Yossarian said:


> Im not sure the forum allowed direct uploads of images back then. All those images that dont load are links to external image hosts. As long as you upload the images directly to the TFO servers then as long as they decide to host the data it will remain viewable.


good to know. Thanks!


----------

