# Scammer!!!



## EddieW

So a few days ago I posted on here that me and my wife were looking for a leopard tortoise. 

User Hermann88 messaged me saying he has a couple leftover and gave me pricing (picture attached). 

I texted him and we communicated back and forth. It was a normal exchange. He had a couple juvenile leopard tortoise picture and said he would do 140$ plus shipping per tortoise (we just wanted one). 

I paid him through PayPal on Sunday he said it would ship Tuesday but no later than Wednesday. He’s since gone completely ghost on me won’t respond to calls texts or emails. So please be careful everyone. I should have been smarter. Not sure what I could have done differently it seemed real. 

Mods might want to ban that user though he’s just here to rip people off now I’m out 186$ and I just wanted a tortoise.


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## EllieMay

That’s horrible!!! I’ve read to always be cautious of new members but it’s human nature to want to believe . so many people are just out to take advantage these days and it ruins the whole spectrum for the honest folks [emoji35]
Thanks for making us aware .


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## EddieW

EllieMay said:


> That’s horrible!!! I’ve read to always be cautious of new members but it’s human nature to want to believe . so many people are just out to take advantage these days and it ruins the whole spectrum for the honest folks [emoji35]
> Thanks for making us aware .



Yes. And I noticed he just joined in September. That was a red flag but everything he was saying and all the pictures just seemed so legit. On with PayPal now trying to get a refund but I don’t want anyone else to have to go through this. Seems like a lot of work to go to just to scam someone out of $186.


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## Toddrickfl1

A good precaution is to ask for a picture of the Tortoise with a piece of paper next to it with the date written on it. If it's a scammer and they don't have the Tortoise they won't be able to provide this.


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## EddieW

I will for sure only buy from well known regulars on here.


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## Toddrickfl1

Also Google image search to see if the picture is stolen.


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## EddieW

Toddrickfl1 said:


> A good precaution is to ask for a picture of the Tortoise with a piece of paper next to it with the date written on it. If it's a scammer and they don't have the Tortoise they won't be able to provide this.



Ugh. This is good information. I even asked for different pictures like of the bottom and side and he provided me all of that. I was sure to check google images too and make sure I didn’t see those pictures anywhere. Lesson learned. Here are all the pictures he/she provided.


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## EddieW

I’m hoping PayPal is good with refunding. Anyone ever had to request a refund for a payment on PayPal? Really hoping I’m not SOL here. This was gonna be a surprise gift for my wife’s birthday in 2 weeks.


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## Minority2

@Hermann88 could have also happen to be a tortoise owner/breeder that scams people from sites like tortoise forum. Personally I would be cautious to do business with anyone that doesn't have a single post in their record. Definitely go through a person's posting records and check the advice they give before making these decisions. 100+ of useful, detailed posts would be a good indication of someone that is here to stay.


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## Toddrickfl1

EddieW said:


> I’m hoping PayPal is good with refunding. Anyone ever had to request a refund for a payment on PayPal? Really hoping I’m not SOL here. This was gonna be a surprise gift for my wife’s birthday in 2 weeks.


Not sure about PayPal but could you dispute the charge on your card?


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## EddieW

Toddrickfl1 said:


> Not sure about PayPal but could you dispute the charge on your card?



I’m on hold with PayPal now. If this goes no where I’ll call my credit card company and try that.


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## Melis

Did you use the “goods and services” or “friends and family” option on PayPal?


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## EddieW

Melis said:


> Did you use the “goods and services” or “friends and family” option on PayPal?



Goods and services


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## Melis

EddieW said:


> Goods and services


Did you get any tracking info? You have to start a claim with PayPal. They will reach out to the seller, and if the seller can’t provide tracking info, PayPal will refund your money.


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## EddieW

Melis said:


> Did you get any tracking info? You have to start a claim with PayPal. They will reach out to the seller, and if the seller can’t provide tracking info, PayPal will refund your money.



Yes. I actually just got off the phone with PayPal. Claim is started. If seller doesn’t respond by Saturday then I should get a full refund. 

Thanks everyone for the help on this! I should have been more careful.


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## EddieW

So after this extravaganza I’m back on the prowl for a leopard tortoise preferably 1-3 years old.


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## Reptilony

Wow that's bad...I hate scammers...Sorry you had to go trough this, im sure there are good leopards breeders on this forum.


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## Yvonne G

I just checked his profile and he has signed on with over 50 different IP addresses, and a random check doesn't show any of them in Florida, like where he says he is.


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## Reptilony

Yvonne G said:


> I just checked his profile and he has signed on with over 50 different IP addresses, and a random check doesn't show any of them in Florida, like where he says he is.



He must use a vpn so we can’t retrace him.


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## EddieW

Yvonne G said:


> I just checked his profile and he has signed on with over 50 different IP addresses, and a random check doesn't show any of them in Florida, like where he says he is.



Geez. He must do this all the time. If anyone is bored at work and wants to follow an update on this case it gets more interesting. 

So when I filed my reclaim with PayPal yesterday it was for an item that was never shipped/received. But today when I called PayPal to follow up they advised me that the seller provided a USPS tracking number on the reclaim file. They gave me this “new” tracking number and it’s for an envelope that shipped out 09/24 which was the day after I paid for the tortoise) and will be arriving on Saturday 09/29. (For those wondering it shipped out of Hollywood Florida so he is in Florida). 

This obviously won’t be a tortoise but my guess is he goes and ships an envelope with nothing of importance in it just so he can provide a valid tracking number to PayPal which will in return allow him more time on the reclaim case. Because now I can’t do anything through PayPal until the “package” is delivered on Saturday then I have to update my reclaim file to “item not received as described”. 

My next step today is calling the post office and seeing if they will tell me what the delivery address is listed on that package. I doubt it’s even coming to my house but maybe it is. I think it’s just a way for him to buy more time.


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## EllieMay

EddieW said:


> I’m hoping PayPal is good with refunding. Anyone ever had to request a refund for a payment on PayPal? Really hoping I’m not SOL here. This was gonna be a surprise gift for my wife’s birthday in 2 weeks.



PayPal is usually amazing and they will go along way towards shutting him down!


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## wellington

One thing to look for also is price. The price you were paying is a hatchling price. Older goes for more money and blonde/white/etc even more money. 
It's also good to be cautious of any newbies. They aren't even allowed to post a for sale thread without first meeting the posting requirements of 100 thread/posts.
Sorry this happened, so glad you will not be out the money.


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## EddieW

wellington said:


> One thing to look for also is price. The price you were paying is a hatchling price. Older goes for more money and blonde/white/etc even more money.
> It's also good to be cautious of any newbies. They aren't even allowed to post a for sale thread without first meeting the posting requirements of 100 thread/posts.
> Sorry this happened, so glad you will not be out the money.



Yea there were red flags that I just ignored. I think I just wanted it to be true because we had been looking for a new leopard for our family for quite a while and I thought it wouldn’t be crazy to think another forum member would give out a good deal. But yea if it’s to good to be true it probably is. It’s a good lesson for me to learn from.


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## Toddrickfl1

EddieW said:


> Geez. He must do this all the time. If anyone is bored at work and wants to follow an update on this case it gets more interesting.
> 
> So when I filed my reclaim with PayPal yesterday it was for an item that was never shipped/received. But today when I called PayPal to follow up they advised me that the seller provided a USPS tracking number on the reclaim file. They gave me this “new” tracking number and it’s for an envelope that shipped out 09/24 which was the day after I paid for the tortoise) and will be arriving on Saturday 09/29. (For those wondering it shipped out of Hollywood Florida so he is in Florida).
> 
> This obviously won’t be a tortoise but my guess is he goes and ships an envelope with nothing of importance in it just so he can provide a valid tracking number to PayPal which will in return allow him more time on the reclaim case. Because now I can’t do anything through PayPal until the “package” is delivered on Saturday then I have to update my reclaim file to “item not received as described”.
> 
> My next step today is calling the post office and seeing if they will tell me what the delivery address is listed on that package. I doubt it’s even coming to my house but maybe it is. I think it’s just a way for him to buy more time.


You should be able to track the package and it will show you the delivery address


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## Maro2Bear

EddieW said:


> I’m hoping PayPal is good with refunding. Anyone ever had to request a refund for a payment on PayPal? Really hoping I’m not SOL here. This was gonna be a surprise gift for my wife’s birthday in 2 weeks.



Yes...PAYPAL should be good on their word here (and reputation) - AND will know who the owner of that Account is should you want to press charges. 

Good luck. I guess Caveat Emptor and Trust but Verify are valid here!


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## Yvonne G

Us moderators are kind of in a bind when it comes to banning members. We have to have some pretty good evidence before we can take such a drastic step. Consequently, we have to wait to hear the end of this story before we can act. When I was approving new members, I wouldn't have seen anything wrong with this person, and would have approved the account. Please keep us informed.


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## Yvonne G

"WE" moderators??????


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## EddieW

Yvonne G said:


> Us moderators are kind of in a bind when it comes to banning members. We have to have some pretty good evidence before we can take such a drastic step. Consequently, we have to wait to hear the end of this story before we can act. When I was approving new members, I wouldn't have seen anything wrong with this person, and would have approved the account. Please keep us informed.



I will keep you updated. I should know more Saturday or Sunday.


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## vladimir

Good luck!


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## ZEROPILOT

Had that new member reached the "criteria" to be able to post animals for sale?


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## Toddrickfl1

ZEROPILOT said:


> Had that new member reached the "criteria" to be able to post animals for sale?


I don't think they posted a for sale ad the OP posted a wanted ad and they were contacted by the scammer.


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## Bee62

I am sorry to hear that you payed money to a scammer. That is really bad.
I wish you good luck that you`ll get your money back.


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## ZEROPILOT

Toddrickfl1 said:


> I don't think they posted a for sale ad the OP posted a wanted ad and they were contacted by the scammer.


I see
I tried to go back and see his/her content and @Hermann88 has ZERO content.
No posts and no replies.
That's a red flag and a half.


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## vladimir

ZEROPILOT said:


> I see
> I tried to go back and see his/her content and @Hermann88 is already disabled.


I looked earlier and they had 0 posts


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## EddieW

Toddrickfl1 said:


> I don't think they posted a for sale ad the OP posted a wanted ad and they were contacted by the scammer.



Yep they DM’d me after I posted in the wanted section. It was for sure by no fault of this site that this happened. There were some red flags I should have picked up on better. Lesson for everyone to just be extra careful.


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## ZEROPILOT

EddieW said:


> Yep they DM’d me after I posted in the wanted section. It was for sure by no fault of this site that this happened. There were some red flags I should have picked up on better. Lesson for everyone to just be extra careful.


Hopefully you'll get your money back.


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## Toddrickfl1

EddieW said:


> Yep they DM’d me after I posted in the wanted section. It was for sure by no fault of this site that this happened. There were some red flags I should have picked up on better. Lesson for everyone to just be extra careful.


Ya hopefully you get your money back and thank you for making us aware of that scumbag.


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## EddieW

Toddrickfl1 said:


> Ya hopefully you get your money back and thank you for making us aware of that scumbag.



Yep I’m hoping. I’ll have an update for everyone by Sunday.


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## SPILL

If possible it wouldn't be a bad idea to try to video yourself receiving and opening the package if an envelope does come.


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## EddieW

SPILL said:


> If possible it wouldn't be a bad idea to try to video yourself receiving and opening the package if an envelope does come.



If the package actually does show up tomorrow not even sure I want to open it. We’ll see. Recording it isn’t a bad idea though. I’m guessing he just ships a piece of paper to a random address to buy him time on the PayPal claim because i can’t move forward when there is a valid tracking number in transit.


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## ZEROPILOT

EddieW said:


> If the package actually does show up tomorrow not even sure I want to open it. We’ll see. Recording it isn’t a bad idea though. I’m guessing he just ships a piece of paper to a random address to buy him time on the PayPal claim because i can’t move forward when there is a valid tracking number in transit.


That's interesting.
I once ordered a car part from Malaysia and got a tracking number.
The package DID eventually arrive. But it was an envelope with a slip of animation decals in it.


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## south12_9

Sorry to hear about your Bad experience on this... But did Da Package or Envelope come yet.. Wish you Da best of luck...


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## EddieW

south12_9 said:


> Sorry to hear about your Bad experience on this... But did Da Package or Envelope come yet.. Wish you Da best of luck...



Alright guys/gals here’s the final update. 

The “package” he mailed was delivered to Mississippi. I’m in Florida. I figured this package he mailed was nothing more than a way for him to buy more time and it appears that was the case. 

I just got off the phone with PayPal and they were extremely helpful once they saw where this package was delivered and issued me a full refund. I am very glad to have this case closed. PayPal were extremely helpful and good to work with on this refund so I’d like to point that out to people. 

Now me and my wife just need to find another leopard tortoise to add to our family but this time I’ll be sure the tortoise actually exists


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## Pearly

EddieW said:


> Alright guys/gals here’s the final update.
> 
> The “package” he mailed was delivered to Mississippi. I’m in Florida. I figured this package he mailed was nothing more than a way for him to buy more time and it appears that was the case.
> 
> I just got off the phone with PayPal and they were extremely helpful once they saw where this package was delivered and issued me a full refund. I am very glad to have this case closed. PayPal were extremely helpful and good to work with on this refund so I’d like to point that out to people.
> 
> Now me and my wife just need to find another leopard tortoise to add to our family but this time I’ll be sure the tortoise actually exists



I am sorry to hear you got to go through this. On this Forum there are many Leopard tort keepers, and they do have babies for sale at times. I’d ask @Tom or @YvonneG, or @Elohi. Know for sure that @Elohi had some Leopard babies at one point. Not sure about Tom and Yvonne but if they don’t they will tell you who does and that will be a GOOD reliable information. And if @Elohi has a tort for sell, your chances of getting a well started, healthy animal are very very high. There are MANY other leopard keepers/breeders on here but I haven’t kept up with the Forum for a ling while due to some issues with
my human children. Anyway, don’t be discoraged and stick around. People on here will help you. Best of luck


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## Yvonne G

Last I heard, @Will has some of our older ones left, but he's keeping them until they're big enough to sex.


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## ALDABRAMAN

~ So sick and disgusted with scammers, basically thieves. It is getting worse than ever these days, actually for many reasons, and not only in the pet trade. Part of the frustration is the lack of legal recourse with many cases, just very time consuming and not cost effective to pursue. The best thing anyone can do is purchase directly and in person, however i know many argue it is not practical. We deal with fewer than most these days and we truly keep it simple and non complex. It is much less stressful and time consuming to only deal with a few these days. It is getting harder to find good ethical honest people these days, most are deceptive, liars, nefarious, deviant, and simply pathetic at some level. I can give countless stories of many, however this is simply not the correct venue. Bottom line here is to simply be cautious and careful. I have always stressed that it is best to actually pay and pick up in person.


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## Kapidolo Farms

EddieW said:


> Alright guys/gals here’s the final update.
> 
> The “package” he mailed was delivered to Mississippi. I’m in Florida. I figured this package he mailed was nothing more than a way for him to buy more time and it appears that was the case.
> 
> I just got off the phone with PayPal and they were extremely helpful once they saw where this package was delivered and issued me a full refund. I am very glad to have this case closed. PayPal were extremely helpful and good to work with on this refund so I’d like to point that out to people.
> 
> Now me and my wife just need to find another leopard tortoise to add to our family but this time I’ll be sure the tortoise actually exists


PM sent.


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## Millerlite

EddieW said:


> Alright guys/gals here’s the final update.
> 
> The “package” he mailed was delivered to Mississippi. I’m in Florida. I figured this package he mailed was nothing more than a way for him to buy more time and it appears that was the case.
> 
> I just got off the phone with PayPal and they were extremely helpful once they saw where this package was delivered and issued me a full refund. I am very glad to have this case closed. PayPal were extremely helpful and good to work with on this refund so I’d like to point that out to people.
> 
> Now me and my wife just need to find another leopard tortoise to add to our family but this time I’ll be sure the tortoise actually exists


Sorry to hear you had to go through this tough lesson, hopefully lesson learned. Pay pal is really good with refunds one reason I like to go through them and not do money orders or checks. I would double on getting one from will wont be disappointing! 

Kyle


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## Anthony_Martinez

Wow i had a similar issues with the same user, I actually send him a payment for 3 cherry heads he supposedly had for sale. Only weird thing is he gave me his wife's paypal email and i sent the payment there. Then he actually refunded me the money back and told me to send it to his personal paypal account and that's when i got a bit suspicious about it and didn't proceed to anymore.


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## Yvonne G

Anthony_Martinez said:


> Wow i had a similar issues with the same user, I actually send him a payment for 3 cherry heads he supposedly had for sale. Only weird thing is he gave me his wife's paypal email and i sent the payment there. Then he actually refunded me the money back and told me to send it to his personal paypal account and that's when i got a bit suspicious about it and didn't proceed to anymore.


You lucked out.


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## KSeaman

I hope you get it all worked out. This is why I like my Turtles and dogs. Good luck


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## turtlesteve

Just to chime in here.....been through this sort of thing once, got my money back. Some suggestions / thoughts:

1. Unless you know or trust the seller, always use the "goods / services" checkout - otherwise you'll have no recourse from scams.
2. Make sure the transaction terms are included with the payment (what you're buying, where it will ship to, when they'll ship, etc).
3. Pay with a credit card through paypal - never via bank account, debit card, or anything else. That way you have a backup option of filing a claim through the credit card company (I didn't have to go this far...). 
4. If the transaction goes bad, file a claim quickly and be wary of delay tactics (seller claims something came up and they can't ship for a couple weeks, etc). The intent of the seller is to get the money out of paypal before it can be clawed back. Paypal and credit card companies both have deadlines on filing a claim.


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## popeye46

EddieW said:


> Alright guys/gals here’s the final update.
> 
> The “package” he mailed was delivered to Mississippi. I’m in Florida. I figured this package he mailed was nothing more than a way for him to buy more time and it appears that was the case.
> 
> I just got off the phone with PayPal and they were extremely helpful once they saw where this package was delivered and issued me a full refund. I am very glad to have this case closed. PayPal were extremely helpful and good to work with on this refund so I’d like to point that out to people.
> 
> Now me and my wife just need to find another leopard tortoise to add to our family but this time I’ll be sure the tortoise actually exists


Have you located any leopard tortoises?? I have two that I have had for 15 years and now that I am getting older I realize no one in my family will be here to take care of them. I have an ad posted in craigslist and I am located in Adrian MI. They are a part of our family and want them to go to a good home. Let me know...... Mike


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## Tiki/Red Foot Tortoise

EddieW said:


> I’m hoping PayPal is good with refunding. Anyone ever had to request a refund for a payment on PayPal? Really hoping I’m not SOL here. This was gonna be a surprise gift for my wife’s birthday in 2 weeks.



PayPal will refund you and then go after the debtor themselves. Yes, I have personal experience on several occasions with PayPal providing a refund. Most recently with a company called The Paw Tracker. Horrible customer service, no readily available phone number for customer support. PayPal refunded my payment to them within a couple of days after I had been trying to contact them for 3 weeks concerning a technical question. Good luck with your search for a tortoise.


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## drew54

I find it odd that anyone would sale a leopard that size for 140 when most hatchlings go for 200.


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