# Artifical insemination of tortoises



## RayRay (Nov 21, 2015)

Artificial insemination (AI) is doable in many species of animals.

I was wondering what y'all think of it for tortoises? There is this process http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02066

which works on parrots who also have cloaca's.

Do you think it would work on tortoises, and if it does do you think using the same method might make hatchlings "flash" and be less invasive then other forms of young sexing?

Also would it be legal to buy sperm from say an Ethiopian leopard and use AI to impregnate a mutt leopard and then doing AI on the closest looking/size ones of the offspring for another AI from a different father?

The science behind shipping it seems pretty straight forward. They add stuff to it and then freeze it and then ship it and then unfreeze it and use it.

I wouldn't want to do anything inhumane or causes trouble for animals and I wouldn't mix purebred species of two types.

But since they are mutts and we can't get the various purebreds would it matter?


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## dmmj (Nov 21, 2015)

I am honestly unaware of any laws regarding tortoise sperm either purchasing or collecting. I don't see why it wouldn't work but is probably expensive and counterproductive. Just my opinion


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## RayRay (Nov 21, 2015)

What do you mean by counterproductive?

It wouldn't take anything from the wild populations and we could get pseudo breeds of the various clades.


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## dmmj (Nov 21, 2015)

it seems like the cost would be counterproductive to me. What do you mean by S
psuedo breeds?


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## RayRay (Nov 21, 2015)

As in ones that look and act like Ethiopian leopards or Sudanese leopards or any of the various locality specific leopards.

In america we can't buy them but we do have mutts of various ones and we could try to breed in more and more of the bloodline from over there.

I know it would take a while and be expensive.


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## RayRay (Nov 22, 2015)

dmmj said:


> it seems like the cost would be counterproductive to me. What do you mean by S
> psuedo breeds?



Do you think it would make almost pure Ethiopian leopards after several times of using it on the offspring with various fathers?


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## dmmj (Nov 22, 2015)

I may not be grasping the concept but why would it make more pure animals bloodline wise? to quote forest Gump I'm not a smart man. why would you have to go through this to make more pure animals could you not justbreed them in the first place?


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## RayRay (Nov 22, 2015)

dmmj said:


> I may not be grasping the concept but why would it make more pure animals bloodline wise? to quote forest Gump I'm not a smart man. why would you have to go through this to make more pure animals could you not justbreed them in the first place?



Because we can't import the tortoises anymore so we can't get those locality specific leopards.


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## teresaf (Nov 22, 2015)

I get what you're saying. It would take many years though. What really needs done is for the laws about captive BRED imports to be loosened up. I see no reason a certain quantity of each species couldn't be brought in to US as long as they were quarantined and checked by a vet first. Then we'd have pure blood breeding stock. Just my opinion.


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## mike taylor (Nov 22, 2015)

Why not just be happy with what we have ? We already have to many Tortoises that need homes . Just hit up Yvonne and the 80 + Tortoises she has taken in this year . Kelly is overloaded with rescues. There's not that many people that will keep these animals forever . I could understand if we were trying to save endangered Tortoises . But to do it for self gain it's not right .


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## teresaf (Nov 22, 2015)

Aren't MOST tortoises species endangered in their native country? Protected at least... By breeding them here where they aren't hunted for their meat or shell its helping the species. If they go extinct in the wild there would still be populations of them here.


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## mike taylor (Nov 22, 2015)

Yes but its a double edge sword. They where brought here for profit. That is one reason why they are disappearing in the wild. People taking over their home land . If we just leave them alone and be happy with what we've got I think they would be better off . Look at Aldabra island . They stopped people from going there .Now there's more than a 1000 Tortoises doing what they are they're meant to do . The Galapagos Tortoises are making a come back some what after we fixed what we caused . I'm just saying just because you can keep them doesn't mean we should . If I could I would gladly send my tortoises back to Africa. So they can be wild like they should be . But I can't so they are here with me to I die . Then they go to my boys . We have plenty of captive breed Tortoises here to work with . There's more sulcatas in the USA than the wild already . Rescues around the USA are taking them in by the hundreds when are we going to stop over breeding them . If you are going to do this than do it with Russian Tortoises that are still taken out of their home land in big box loads for peoples greed . Even better how about stopping them from being exported . Just because you have the money to own a loin should you ? Hell no you shouldn't ! I love reptiles I have my whole life . For once I would love for people to see they should be left alone .


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## mike taylor (Nov 22, 2015)

This is just my personal opinion.


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## dmmj (Nov 22, 2015)

now I want a lion. :-(


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## teresaf (Nov 22, 2015)

Yes, I agree somewhat. They shouldnt be brought here for profit. Where I don't agree is the opinion that leaving them alone is somehow going to stop people from taking over their homeland. Our numbers are growing and will continue to grow until we find a better birth control. I was really talking about the countries that are eating them out of existence or taking them for their prerty shells. That doesn't look like its going to stop fast enough to stop already endangered species from going extinct. Un my opinion If we had a few (captive bred)to work with here in the US we could try to stop this from happening.


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## RayRay (Nov 23, 2015)

The whole point of AI would be so there wouldn't be anything taken out of the environment and still gaining tortoise bloodlines that are blocked currently by law.


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## mike taylor (Nov 23, 2015)

dmmj said:


> now I want a lion. :-(


Me to but its not right . Maybe if we interfere with nature and create a smaller species of Lion we can have them as house cats .


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## theguy67 (Nov 23, 2015)

teresaf said:


> Yes, I agree somewhat. They shouldnt be brought here for profit. Where I don't agree is the opinion that leaving them alone is somehow going to stop people from taking over their homeland. Our numbers are growing and will continue to grow until we find a better birth control. I was really talking about the countries that are eating them out of existence or taking them for their prerty shells. That doesn't look like its going to stop fast enough to stop already endangered species from going extinct. Un my opinion If we had a few (captive bred)to work with here in the US we could try to stop this from happening.



I agree. Limiting those that keep the animals as pets will only lower demand, and wild collecting. Many tortoises are eaten by natives, and humans are still taking their habitat. The only way leaving them alone will do any good is if humans left this planet. Even then, some may not recover on their own. Shrinking the reptile hobby would also diminish interest, which feeds conservation efforts. If I never owned a tortoise, I probably wouldn't care if people made soup out of them. Its a nice idea to "free animals" and return them to the wild,..but that's from a human prospective (since some equate it to prisons), but some animals do well in captivity. I doubt they are thinking about this as much as we are.

The best thing to do is make a list of stores that sell WC animals and boycott them.


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## teresaf (Nov 23, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> Me to but its not right . Maybe if we interfere with nature and create a smaller species of Lion we can have them as house cats .


We did. They're called 'house cats'...


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## dmmj (Nov 23, 2015)

I will gladly take a small  lion. a lion is a lion after all. while you are taking request, I'll take a pygmy elephant as well. oh yes and a cyborg monkey Butler


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## mike taylor (Nov 23, 2015)

I'll take one of the smaller giraffe. So they came keep my bushes trimmed . Cyborg monkeys sound awesome .


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## mike taylor (Nov 23, 2015)

Sorry but house cats don't come from lions .


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## mike taylor (Nov 23, 2015)

Here's how we got house cats .


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## motero (Nov 23, 2015)

I don't have any references, but they did this with an endangered tortoise years ago, (ploughshare i think). And the males ended up dying from the collection routines they were subjected to.


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## RayRay (Nov 23, 2015)

motero said:


> I don't have any references, but they did this with an endangered tortoise years ago, (ploughshare i think). And the males ended up dying from the collection routines they were subjected to.



Do you remember what the process was?


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## RayRay (Nov 23, 2015)

Do y'all think a mount collector where the tortoise mounts it and acts like normal and the collector part is attached to the mount?

I've read that is what they do for horses.


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## motero (Nov 23, 2015)

It was basically the same, electrical stimulation. 
I could see if you had a tortoise that was young and going through that hormonal stage when they are just becoming mature, a mount collector might work.
Older fellows probably won't fall for it.

This all sounds like a lot of work, better to just let tortoises be tortoises. The stress, the possible injury, the low chance of success.


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## motero (Nov 23, 2015)

@Baoh


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## dmmj (Nov 23, 2015)

I really don't want to see tortoise semen collector as a possible job. I do wonder why they are using electrical stimulation to collect it


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## jaizei (Nov 23, 2015)

dmmj said:


> I really don't want to see tortoise semen collector as a possible job. I do wonder why they are using electrical stimulation to collect it



I imagine it's better than 'manual stimulation' as it were.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/05/asia/china-turtle-extinction-insemination/


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## Yvonne G (Nov 23, 2015)

motero said:


> I don't have any references, but they did this with an endangered tortoise years ago, (ploughshare i think). And the males ended up dying from the collection routines they were subjected to.




There's a Yangtzee River Turtle that's the last female of her species and they're using AI on her. But I don't think it talks about how hard the process is on the male turtles:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/05/asia/china-turtle-extinction-insemination/


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## Yvonne G (Nov 23, 2015)

OOPS! I guess I should read all the posts before I respond, huh?


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## RayRay (Nov 23, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> There's a Yangtzee River Turtle that's the last female of her species and they're using AI on her. But I don't think it talks about how hard the process is on the male turtles:
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/05/asia/china-turtle-extinction-insemination/



Do you think AI would help with yellow foots low fertility rate in captivity?

I remember you saying you have only 1/3 of clutches hatch.


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## RayRay (Nov 23, 2015)

motero said:


> It was basically the same, electrical stimulation.
> I could see if you had a tortoise that was young and going through that hormonal stage when they are just becoming mature, a mount collector might work.
> Older fellows probably won't fall for it.
> 
> This all sounds like a lot of work, better to just let tortoises be tortoises. The stress, the possible injury, the low chance of success.



I dont think its be that hard tortoises are simple creatures.

I think making one the correct size and padded to reduce injury chances and painted to look like a tortoise would work even on an adult.

You might get better success out of it if you rub female urine or water a female was soaked in on part of it.

I could even see it being useful for vets who need to check on the male tortoises just have it on a raised platform with out a bottom and then they could examine them.


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## RayRay (Nov 23, 2015)

jaizei said:


> I imagine it's better than 'manual stimulation' as it were.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/05/asia/china-turtle-extinction-insemination/



Thanks for the link ill read it after work im not sure they would want me opening that here


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## EllyMae (Jun 16, 2020)

I know I’m late to this convo.
But I’m just thinking logistically, how to collect. Creating a dummy for mounting wouldn’t be difficult. 
a species specific collection sleeve would have to be made. As well as the “collection protocol” (They have these in different livestock like how to present the male to the dummy in the right way to gain the achieved outcome)
Research would have to be done on the storage of the samples. 
(whether or not it could be frozen for storage and for how long with which how much dilution with which dilution liquid)

{Pig collections don’t survive freezing. They have to be stored and shipped at a constant warm temperature. There’s a warm bath machine they use}
Then to inseminate, I’m guessing the safest would be the intra-uterine method with a small incision, like they do with dogs. 

In college, I either assisted or watched the collection of horses, bulls,and boars. I’ve spoken to people who have collected from elephants and dogs.

(Interestingly, they don’t use mounting dummies for elephants. They had trouble building one strong enough to support him. Plus it wasn’t safe for the zookeepers. So they do prostate stimulation by electrical pulses to help collect the sample. I toured an elephant breeding and rescue facility)


Overall, AI is used when there are very high quality parents who couldn’t “get around” enough as people would like them to, to get enough offspring. 
For tortoises, this would work well for endangered species!


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## mark1 (Jun 16, 2020)

EllyMae said:


> Overall, AI is used when there are very high quality parents who couldn’t “get around” enough as people would like them to, to get enough offspring.


or dead ...….. assuming it is frozen properly , I believe the problem is timing in healthy dogs , which is a big deal with the shortened lifespan of frozen or chilled semen , maybe one of those is the problem in pigs ……. they got the timing in dogs down pat ......... I've had success with frozen semen and transcervical inseminations , semen frozen 8-10yrs , from long dead dogs …my dogs right now , their father was dead 5yrs before they were born ……..…. looking back at the life of an old dog or dead dog is 20/20 , you know without question what your breeding too ..... i'd think timing with turtles and tortoises would require information not yet available …….


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