# Pair Discussion, Again...



## ArtieNShelley (Jul 10, 2022)

Not sure if anyone has had the same experience but my 2 Sulcata tortoises have been living in the same enclosure together since about 3 weeks hatched.

Not ONE problem with them.
They actually love each other and get along very well!

Did you not crowd each other when they’re eating and they do not fight whatsoever. I’m actually quite honestly surprised at how well they have done together and as long as you keep enough food and water in the enclosure from my experience they will be fine.

I’m going on about a year now and still have yet to see any problems with aggression or bullying of any sort.

One is male and one is female. They don’t try to walk over each other they make sure to go around each other if they are enroute across the enclosure.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 10, 2022)

Just wait until they get to be sexually mature. And if I'm reading your post right your two are only a year or so of age. This is way too young yet to determine the sex of either.


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## Tom (Jul 10, 2022)

This old thread was quoted and reference today:





Sulcatas being together


Hello I own a baby sulcata tortoise but I'm taking care of my cousins sulcata tortoises as well so I have three little baby's in my tank is it bad to keep them all together. Any I should know about keeping them together




tortoiseforum.org





@ArtieNShelley quoted one of my answers to this original thread from 2014, and I would like to answer their post and invite more debate on the subject, with the interest of educating tortoise owners and helping tortoises avoid unhealthy, bad living situations.

Here is the post from @ArtieNShelley this morning:
You seem to be the tortoise master. People are telling you what their personal experiences are and you are dead set on discounting what they have witnessed with their own eyes.

I have the same set up with two tortoises that were legitimately hatched from the same clutch. Both are eating more than I can even keep up with and straight up have a schedule on how they do things. Just to give you an idea, they both burrow in the same hide together. One in each corner.

Also, another way I know what you’re saying is a complete fallacy is because some of the most famous tortoise hatcheries and caretakers have plenty of Sulcatas living in the same immediate area. If the stress from one other tortoise causes a problem how is it that 10 tortoises can live in a confined area together, brought together and not have any issues?

You should stick to doing what works best for you and let other people do what’s best for them based on what they observe in their own enclosures. 


Here is the response I spent a lot of time typing before the thread was closed:
This thread is from 2014 in case you didn't know this.

What is your background in animal behavior? Maybe just maybe, the guy with college degrees in animal behavior, who has been a professional animal trainer since the early 90s, and who has made a career of working with animal behavior, and made a hobby of animal training competition against the top profession trainers in the country, and won several National titles at it, maybe just maybe that guy has some helpful insight to share???

Do you know how many people come to me with their dogs after self-diagnosing and telling me all about what the problem is, and then when I get to their house, what they think is the problem has nothing to do with the problem? No. You couldn't possibly know the answer to that question, but I will tel you: Most of the time. How is this relevant? The person I was responding to above is completely misdiagnosing what is going on based on their own anthropomorphic fantasies about what they are seeing. So yes, I absolutely am dead set on discounting what they are seeing with their own eyes because they are misinterpreting what they are seeing, as explained, and this is causing terrible harm to their tortoises and is likely to result in a slow death after a hellish life of torture and harassment.

Your two tortoises are not getting along any better, and this demonstrates your ignorance of pair dynamics as well. You are seeing what you want to see and justifying it in your mind based on false criteria that you've made up.

Famous tortoise hatcheries? I too am a "famous tortoise hatchery", and almost all of my adults live in groups, including sulcatas, of which I've hatched well over 1000. GROUP dynamics are vastly different than PAIR dynamics. Don't take my word for it. Look it up yourself. You want to argue with someone who has raised literally 1000's of tortoises of several species since the 80's and housed them in every way imaginable, someone who is literally a career animal behaviorist with decades of experience rising to the top of his profession, someone whose passion and hobby is animal behavior and has earned multiple National 1st place titles... Well, okay. Let's argue, respectfully. I can back up my assertions and explain each and every one. What is your argument? You have two clutch mates living together, and they are still alive and eating? Is there more?

Do you go on medical forums and argue the fineries of open heart surgery with cardiac surgeons? Do you argue self defense techniques with 6th degree black belts on your first day of class in a white belt? I can't figure why a person would do such a thing. Unless deep down they knew what they were doing wasn't right, and instead of accepting good advice from a credible source, they instead doubled down on their ignorance and attempted to justify their mistakes and wrongdoing by attempting to discredit the person telling them what they are doing is wrong and causing harm to the animals in their care? Your animals are suffering and will continue to suffer as long as you remain willfully and defiantly ignorant about this most basic tenant of animal behavior. Or... you could open your mind a bit and learn something that you didn't know and improve the lives of the animals in your care.


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## OliveW (Jul 10, 2022)

I would be terrified to do that. 

From everything I've read, and I've spent many, many hours researching Sulcatas, one of them could literally end up dead, or severely injured, when they get older.


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## wellington (Jul 10, 2022)

Like Yvonne said just wait and no, if they are that young you dont know what seces they are.
As to them bullying, maybe not yet but with all the years of experience with tortoise on this forum, I think you would be much better listening and reading all the many threads about the subject instead of putting human feelings on a tortoise and thinking they love each other. 
Yoi world do best to build a seperate enclosure now so when it happens, yes when, not if, you will be prepared.


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## wellington (Jul 10, 2022)

OliveW said:


> I would be terrified to do that.
> 
> From everything I've read, and I've spent many, many hours researching Sulcatas, one of them could literally end up dead, or severely injured, when they get older.


Good don't, it's wrong and very unhealthy for the torts. Don't learn the hard way.


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## TammyJ (Jul 10, 2022)

Why is this argument always coming up? I think because mostly, it's just so inconvenient to have to buy or build another enclosure. Right?


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## ZEROPILOT (Jul 10, 2022)

ArtieNShelley said:


> Not sure if anyone has had the same experience but my 2 Sulcata tortoises have been living in the same enclosure together since about 3 weeks hatched.
> 
> Not ONE problem with them.
> They actually love each other and get along very well!
> ...


It's very difficult for mammals like us to wrap our minds around real tortoise behavior. And they can not vocalize their wants or needs.
They are solitary creatures. They have been for as long as they've been on earth. And just seeing another tortoise is highly stressful for them. Being forced to live near another tortoise with no way to retreat is downright cruelty.
You are not alone. And you are not a bad person. But believe me (us)....Tortoises do not LOVE each other. They don't like each other either. They don't get lonely and they don't get sad.
They want food and to be left alone.
Reptiles and specifically Tortoises do not think like we do. Bullying can be subtle. It's not always missing limbs and blood. But the stress is very harmful.
Two tortoises together is a recipe for disaster no matter the species.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jul 10, 2022)

TammyJ said:


> Why is this argument always coming up? I think because mostly, it's just so inconvenient to have to buy or build another enclosure. Right?


Frankly it must SUCK.
Or having to consider keeping just one and trying to decide which one to keep.

Each adult Sulcata can easily use a 1/4 acre of land. And they require VERY strong and secure structures
I think a lot of new keepers know that they're wrong. But they're looking to convince themselves that it'll be alright.
Your inconvenience should be less important than the well being of these poor animals that are counting on you. Their lives are in your hands and it's different once you know you're wrong than it was before you knew better.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jul 10, 2022)

OliveW said:


> I would be terrified to do that.
> 
> From everything I've read, and I've spent many, many hours researching Sulcatas, one of them could literally end up dead, or severely injured, when they get older.


When they get larger. They get too heavy to lift and too strong to control. You'll need a plan WAY before then.


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## wellington (Jul 10, 2022)

TammyJ said:


> Why is this argument always coming up? I think because mostly, it's just so inconvenient to have to buy or build another enclosure. Right?


Because idiot breeders and stores say they do better with another tortoise and yes, easier and cheaper to house together. It kills me how newbies jump in here with little or no experience and think they know it all. So many threads, if they would do their home work, on why this doesn't work. They don't get it that we aren't selling anything but the idiots that sold them two torts, well geez, more money in their pocket.


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## OliveW (Jul 10, 2022)

wellington said:


> Good don't, it's wrong and very unhealthy for the torts. Don't learn the hard way.



I absolutely will not!  I have ONE Sulcata and found out within 30 minutes of owning him that he absolutely does not need me to find him a "friend." All the resources we can afford are going into building an enclosure for Tortimer only. We want it to be as close to an acre as we can afford (we already have plenty of land.) I figure a creature that can easily see 100 years old deserves the largest possible home. If we got another tortoise, it would take some quality of life away from the one we already have, so not going to happen. Kind of the same reason we only had four kids, rather than the nine I wanted.


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## Tom (Jul 10, 2022)

OliveW said:


> I would be terrified to do that.
> 
> From everything I've read, and I've spent many, many hours researching Sulcatas, one of them could literally end up dead, or severely injured, when they get older.


You are right about that, but I'm not even talking about the overt hostilities that would be seen if two adult males engaged in combat. I'm not talking about the obvious ramming and biting. I'm talking about much more subtle low grade constant stress cause by the dominant one telling the subordinate one to "GET OUT OF MY TERRITORY!!!" in ways that most humans won't even notice. Many time when people do see these signs they misinterpret them. "Cuddling" is really one trying to crowd the other out. Sleeping face to face is very confrontational and a clear sign to vacate the premises, but it can't because of the secure enclosure walls. Following each other around is a form of mad-dogging.

This constant stress hampers appetite, causes the submissive one to hide more, and can hamper the immune system. Think of all the stress hormones that are studied in humans and what those do to us. Tortoises have similar stress reactions in their bodies. The usual result of this living hell is that one will outgrow the other. Many survive this way for years, but it is not good for them in any way.


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