# A Tale of Two Tortoises



## Tom (Mar 28, 2013)

This is a story about different ways of raising tortoises. This is not a scientific experiment. This is not a "How-to..." thread. I raised two different groups of sulcata tortoises at the same time, and got different results. I'd like to show what I did with each group and what I've gotten so far with each method.

Method number one is my usual method. I've described it many times, but it basically consists of a closed chamber style of enclosure. All the heating and lighting equipment is enclosed within the enclosure and there are no openings or vents. ALL of the heat and humidity generated stays inside the enclosure instead of escaping up into the room through an open top. This makes it very easy to maintain ideal conditions and it uses a fraction of the electricity that an open topped enclosure uses. Here is a thread I did on this concept: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-32333.html
The sulcata hatchlings from method one have had an ambient of 80 F or higher 24/7, plus a basking spot and florescent tube light for about 12 hours a day. They got daily soaks when they were small and they got one or two hours of sun in a planted outdoor enclosure every day. I sprayed their shells with water several times a day. Their diet has been mostly grass and weeds, with occasional leaves, cactus pads, flowers, and Mazuri mixed with ZooMed Grassland diet once or twice a week. Here are the results: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-50806.html

Method number two was a bit of a departure for me. Many people advocate doing things more "naturally". Some of it makes sense to me. I've had many conversations with many people about all this including Dave Friend, Dean, Tomas Diagne, Yvonne and lots of other forum members too. The point is, there was a lot of influence from a lot of people behind this. Method number two involved my "Wild Bunch" seen here: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-55041.html
With this group I let them live outside all day every day from the day I found them, as long as the weather was "T-shirt" weather. That is most of the year here. I found them in September of 2012 and they were outside in a 4x8' well planted enclosure all day every day until about mid November when the weather started cooling. At that point I would put them out whenever the weather was sunny and around 65 or more. There were several week long stretches during winter where they stayed inside, but most days they got at least a few hours of sunning/grazing time. Their inside enclosure is an open topped 100 gallon reptile tank. It has orchid bark for substrate, a water dish, a food dish, a basking rock, a humid hide and that's about it. The basking spot is an old MVB. It still works, but I'm sure it gives off very little UV. I'm just using it for heat. Directly under the bulb gets to about 100. The rest of the room is heated to 78-80 all the time, so that is ambient, day or night. Every night they sleep in this tank and every day they go out all day, unless it was too cold in the winter. These tortoises have been fed nothing but grass, weeds and leaves that I have either grown myself or scrounged up. They have had no store bought food, except some collard greens that I grew myself, no supplements of any kind, but cuttle bone available, and they have never seen any prepared foods whatsoever. I soak them most days, but skip a lot more days than I normally would. During the hot end of summer days when they first hatched, I soaked them every day. As they got older I skipped more and more days. I still soak them around 2 or 3 times a week. I guess you could call this a "hybrid" method of housing and caring for them. A mix of my usual wet method and the old dry methods. Here are the results:

This one is 208 grams at a little over six months old.










This one is 247.









And this one is 285.









For comparison sake, here is one of my 10 month old sulcatas from method one with a similar camera angle and background.






This cannot be any sort of direct comparison. Far too many variables were different. Food, daily temps, humidity, supplements, amount of sunshine, hatching method, genetics, etc. I just find it all interesting. I have consistently seen across the board that the more time hatchlings spend outside, the slower they grow. Many other keepers have related similar stories to me. My Sudans were 365-436 at six months where the Wild Bunch is only 208-285 grams. With the exclusion of Mazuri once or twice a week, their diets were very similar. I wish I had either skipped the Mazuri on my Sudans or included it with the Wild Bunch for comparison sake, but I didn't. Are the Sudans bigger due to genetics, food, or because they were housed in "ideal" conditions more of the time? I don't know. That is why this thread is in the debatable section.


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## wellington (Mar 28, 2013)

Great thread Tom. How about the thought that the inside torts don't have to roam around for their food. While the ones left outside to graze do. I have noticed that with my leopard, I know not a sully, but my leopard when he is outside grazing, he stops, eats a little then will move on to another spot, even though the spot he just left has the same weeds, he moved to a new spot to get. Just my thought.


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## Tom (Mar 28, 2013)

Their outdoor enclosures are the same size, 4x8', and similarly planted. The method one babies also have a 4x8' indoor enclosure, but we're in only 4x4' for their first couple of months.


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## Weda737 (Mar 28, 2013)

wellington said:


> Great thread Tom. How about the thought that the inside torts don't have to roam around for their food. While the ones left outside to graze do. I have noticed that with my leopard, I know not a sully, but my leopard when he is outside grazing, he stops, eats a little then will move on to another spot, even though the spot he just left has the same weeds, he moved to a new spot to get. Just my thought.



My sulcata does the same thing. Eat two bites and take off again, those feet hardly stop moving. Mine spends a lot of time outside. Basically as long as it's warm enough (even somewhat chilly for me his carapace temp reads in the high eighties to mid nineties, love that solar panel shell) His shell is also a bit bumpy, kind of like that "wild" bunch. And for a several months when I ran out of mazuri his growth really slowed. It's not a big part of his diet but he does get a few kibbles of it, or a few red sticks about every day now. Growth really started picking up. Most of his diet was always yard grazing stuff, mostly clover and chickweed. He still won't touch a dandelion or that plaintain weed. The rest is supplemented with spring mix, zoomed grassland, and mazuri/red sticks. Had a cuttlebone until recently when I tossed what was left. He would occasionally take some chunks out of it and he does eat a pebble outside now and then. I also let him eat his poops, I know it seems gross but I believe they do it for a reason. There's my little story, if it helps to compare. I just know that mazuri seriously kick starts the growth.


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## Tom (Mar 28, 2013)

I've seen the same thing with heavy Mazuri use. Lots of growth.


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## tortadise (Mar 28, 2013)

Tom said:


> I've seen the same thing with heavy Mazuri use. Lots of growth.



The question would be the added hydration from the mazuri it is soaked in possibly. I wonder if perhaps this experiment should be tried in both methods like you said with both fed the exact same diet consistency. I know Dean had his guys outside. What did his feeding regime consist of? In relation to the mazuri intake of yours? Interesting. Hard to tell is genetics play a role in respect too. I would begin to imagine they play a role. Definitely not really a variable that plays a large percentage perhaps. I know my guys are not Sudanese but they are massive. I think its all a matter of how they are raised from beginning to current. 

I would be curious to see if the method of outside wild bunch and incubated clutches fed exactly the same thing differed. After all your not using 1 or 2 animals in each group. I tell you what mr.tom I have a clutch of leopards/sulcatas both in the ground right now. Lets do another experiment this year. Incubated versus in ground. From hatching to current and see what my guys differ in relation to yours. Gotta love spring. 

They all look great by the way.


One more thing to consider is the percentage of mineral, proteins(animal/plant), and fiber in the diet too. Maybe the wee guys in the wild eat more protein first off then thought. I know the big guys will devour birds, small rodents, etc.. But what about the little guys. I know padlopers eat termites when they are young in their regions. Perhaps the sulcata eats ground worms, and beetles when they are young. After all 30 eggs from this clutch in the ground could be separated into 10 variable experiment group.


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## Tom (Mar 28, 2013)

Dean feeds a lot of Mazuri and redsticks. I think he makes his tortoise meatballs or tortoise lasagna every day. His got a lot of Mazuri which should have made them grow very fast in comparison to mine that only got Mazuri mixed with other things once or twice a week. This is one reason why I think raising them indoors in ideal conditions allows them to grow faster than if they are outside most of the time. They also grow slower in the typical dry open topped indoor enclosures. I wonder how fast they grow when raised outside in New Orleans, or South FL. Is it the dryness here that slows them down? Outside temps? Hydration? Combo of all of it?


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## Cowboy_Ken (Mar 29, 2013)

One thing clearly missing from this thread would be that with all this talk of feeding Mazuri tortoise chow and the higher levels of protein it contains, where are the grossly pyramided tortoises so many tortoise groups reference with this feeding regime? I've asked some to quantify their beliefs concerning this and I typically get the silent treatment. Tom, I believe, is,doing real work to help us understand the dynamics of diet and environment in raising our little charges, and for that I thank him on all of our behalf.


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## tortadise (Mar 29, 2013)

Cowboy_Ken said:


> One thing clearly missing from this thread would be that with all this talk of feeding Mazuri tortoise chow and the higher levels of protein it contains, where are the grossly pyramided tortoises so many tortoise groups reference with this feeding regime? I've asked some to quantify their beliefs concerning this and I typically get the silent treatment. Tom, I believe, is,doing real work to help us understand the dynamics of diet and environment in raising our little charges, and for that I thank him on all of our behalf.



Good points Ken. However we need to keep in mind the differences in animal and plant proteins. Although rather similar in a scientific break down. The plant protein seems to suggest its perfectly suitable and a needed part of the diet of herbivores. The real differences of plant versus animal is the amino acids and how they break down in the digestion of the animal. Animal proteins seem to contain more than a few amino acids and are sulphur based requiring a lot of calcium to balance, process, and absorb. Plant proteins tend to comprise of less "cluster" amino acids and is a medium Ph rather than a low Ph of animal proteins. Lower Ph (and trust me I am no expert) would in my opinion accelerate digestion in a herbivore instead of slowly digest and absorb in be utilized as a healthy growth additive needed to thrive. So the real question would be. How much actual plant protein is needed for sulcatas. Given they are known to consume carrion(animal protein). I would assume perhaps that a sulcata or any tortoise for that matter would be a lot smarter than people give them credit for. Kinda like a pregnant woman craving spinach for some random reason. Well the body is telling itself "I need potassium". So eat some spinach. I think all this could go very in depth for certain. But I do know protein is a much needed source for tortoises. Both animal and plant protein. The question is just how much is a perfect amount and which species needs a balance of both.

To be honest I don't really feed mazuri. I use cattle formula and soak it same as mazuri. Its make up is over 8 bermudas, and 9 different grasses including buffalo, and iron grass. Also its about 8 dollars for a 50 pound bag.


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## Tom (Mar 29, 2013)

Here is my general feeling on the matter: Even one of our well planted, irrigated, large enclosures is relatively stark and dry when compared to the green African marshlands during the rainy season. At least over here in the Southwest. Maybe its different in the South in the summer. Someone with experience hatching and raising babies over there will have to chime in. Where's Katherine? Mr. Ivans? With the exception of a few hot months in Summer, our outdoor temps don't match up to what's over there either, but my INDOOR temps and humidity match pretty well all year long with the help of a closed chamber and a little electricity.

To summarize a few debatable points:
1. Cool and or dry conditions slows growth. (Cool by sub-Saharan Africa standards...)
2. Warm, wet conditions cause them to thrive and speed up growth. This is very difficult to do outdoors in the Southwest, but it MIGHT be achievable in summer in the South.
3. Mazuri, by all accounts DOES seem to make tortoises grow faster, but its also true that sulcatas will thrive and grow on a wide variety of diet regimes.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Mar 29, 2013)

Tom said:


> 3. Mazuri, by all accounts DOES seem to make tortoises grow faster, but its also true that sulcatas will thrive and grow on a wide variety of diet regimes.



"Mazuri, by all accounts DOES seem to make tortoises grow faster . . ."

. . . than no mazuri, 

. . . than only leaves grass and weeds

. . . than ZooMed

What is at the dangling end of the comparison Tom? Maybe I read through too fast and missed something, but it reads like half of a comparative statement.

I have secretly been using the closed chamber (don't tell anyone) with some leopards, it's all good, I like the environmental control, reminds me of the chambers at the Fresno Chaffee Zoo used for several species of herps, including raditata and Psammobates. It's working super well.

Will


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## Tom (Mar 29, 2013)

D. All of the above. 


Be careful Will. I read on the Internet that humidity will give your leopard shell rot and a deadly respiratory infection...


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## Cowboy_Ken (Mar 29, 2013)

Tom said:


> Be careful Will. I read on the Internet that humidity will give your leopard shell rot and a deadly respiratory infection...



And we all know Africa is dry as a bone. Remember Daktari? Hot and dry.


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## sibi (Mar 29, 2013)

Have anyone thought about the internal regulators of sulcatas? In Africa, sulcats thrive in the warm rainy seasons, but then they are equipped to reserve water very well for the rest of the year. When sulcatas are removed from their natural habitat, and we (people) provide heat, humidity, food and water all year long, how does that affect their ablity to self regulate? Does that change affect other components of their growth? Would it perhaps speed up growth, whereas, in their natural habitat growth would be slower? I often think how sullies would live in the wild and how different they would be if the perfect environment would be provided for them. How would their natural internal mechanisms compensate for the difference?


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## Tom (Mar 29, 2013)

sibi said:


> Have anyone thought about the internal regulators of sulcatas? In Africa, sulcats thrive in the warm rainy seasons, but then they are equipped to reserve water very well for the rest of the year. When sulcatas are removed from their natural habitat, and we (people) provide heat, humidity, food and water all year long, how does that affect their ablity to self regulate? Does that change affect other components of their growth? Would it perhaps speed up growth, whereas, in their natural habitat growth would be slower? I often think how sullies would live in the wild and how different they would be if the perfect environment would be provided for them. How would their natural internal mechanisms compensate for the difference?



They don't have water all year, but they do have food and the same good temps. When the rainy season ends, they go underground into their burrows that are filled with grasses and weeds.

I don't know if the conditions we provide are better, worse, or as a good as, what they experience in the wild. They certainly have more ability to exploit more micro habitats and they certainly don't have to ever deal with cool weather, which is one of the biggest problems in our captive environments.

To answer your first question: Yes. I have thought A LOT about this subject. I think about this stuff aaaallllllll the time. One could call it obsessive even. This is why I must go there and see it for myself. I'd like to spend a few years there and really experience all the seasonal comings and goings, but that is just not possible at this stage in my life. So I do the next best thing which is question the heck out of anyone who DOES live there.


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## cdmay (Apr 1, 2013)

Interesting thread Tom. The debate about captive diets and their effects on growing tortoises will probably continue for a long time. I've come to the conclusion that pretty much ALL captive hatched/captive raised tortoises are going to grow much faster than their wild counterparts regardless of the specific diet offered. It seems that most all captive raised tortoises will have a certain 'look' about them that sets them apart from wild animals of the same species and of the same relative size, no matter what they consumed while growing. The differences may be scutes that range from being only slightly raised to extremely distorted or growth lines on the shell that are widely separated instead of the tight, uniform growth usually seen on wild tortoises. The fact is that (most anyway) of our captive animals are kept in smaller confines than they would be experiencing in their native environment and they get more food. Plus, even in the most naturalistic setup we imagine, we are still putting more food in front of tortoise than they would likely be finding in the wild. 
After trying various methods (with mixed results) over the years I have found that common sense along with knowledge of the species you are working with goes a long way.


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## Tom (Apr 1, 2013)

Insightful words. Thanks Carl.

There is just so much that we don't know or fully understand. Many blanks to fill in...


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## Neal (Apr 1, 2013)

This is a good topic, but yeah, a lot of variables to consider to really conclude anything.

I'd be curious to see if your outside sulcatas catch up to your other ones. I have always had slow growth rates compared to others. A friend suggested it might have been due to the amount of time mine spent outside as compared to others, since every other aspect was "ideal". But trying to make sense of the whys or hows of that theory had prohibited me from pursuing that idea any further. Eventually though, my tortoises caught up to others' captive bred tortoises. 

Consider my South African leopards, which are small compared to the other (possible clutch mates) of the ones shown here on the forum, but not too small as to be overly concerned. I have seen a lot of growth over the winter, and especially in the last month since things have been warming up. My largest one is tip toe-ing around 9 inches now and has a lot of new growth coming in. I'd be willing to bet they end up at a similar size to others.

The topic is definitely worth some further "experimenting".


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## Madkins007 (Apr 2, 2013)

One of the really annoying things about tortoises is that the normal methods of evaluating diet and husbandry for pets and domestic animals are longevity and reproduction (and of course things like blood tests, autopsies, etc.)- and tortoises live long enough and reproduce so slowly that a real trial would have to last about 10 years.

The fact that tortoises are such a survivor species and thrive in such fringe areas just makes it tougher.

But thanks, Tom, for doing this!!!!


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## DeanS (Apr 2, 2013)

Tom said:


> Dean feeds a lot of Mazuri and redsticks. I think he makes his tortoise meatballs or tortoise lasagna every day. His got a lot of Mazuri which should have made them grow very fast in comparison to mine that only got Mazuri mixed with other things once or twice a week. This is one reason why I think raising them indoors in ideal conditions allows them to grow faster than if they are outside most of the time. They also grow slower in the typical dry open topped indoor enclosures. I wonder how fast they grow when raised outside in New Orleans, or South FL. Is it the dryness here that slows them down? Outside temps? Hydration? Combo of all of it?



A-ha! Dean does feed Mazuri everyday! BUT! Climber and Jamie are the ones that 'kill it'...the Sudans treat the Mazuri like a 'normal' human treats coffee (OK...bad analogy). They come out in the morning and nibble on the Mazuri for about 10 minutes...then NEVER even look at it again! They go off and sleep a little...graze a little...soak A LOT...then bask...sleep...graze. Mine are not great consumers. My mulberries started blasting out leaves yesterday...I picked some of the best ones for the babies...and they barely touched it. As Mazuri and hydration go? I soak mine to the point of oatmeal consistency...medium really! Not runny and not stiff...just somewhere in between. I believe this was something Fife did as well (to deter pyramiding). Plus, I soak twice a day...usually an hour or more per session. Tom...I gotta say...it's been driving me crazy...wondering how the Sudans would be doing if I still lived In West Palm Beach...would they be thriving anymore than here? I love this thread...BADASS!


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## Deac77 (Apr 11, 2013)

My sullys live outdoors almost year round and are only a year old I feed spring mix and mazuri but they graze mainly. When they are indoors it's in a 110 gallon horse trough I just mist it 3-4 times a days and mine are very similar to yours tom


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## Yellow Turtle (Apr 12, 2013)

I'm always interested to read different ways of care for tortoise and the parameters that I always look for are pyramiding and growth. These two methods that Tom describes, I also think too many variables to consider, and I think genetic is the main issue. We see that Sudan sulcata grows much bigger, so I assume they will also grow at much faster pace too. Second thing, is it only me, but I think the ones raised outside appear to be slightly pyramided compare to the sudanese.

I hope someone will have similar experiment but with same clutch torts.


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## Tom (Apr 12, 2013)

Deac77 said:


> My sullys live outdoors almost year round and are only a year old I feed spring mix and mazuri but they graze mainly. When they are indoors it's in a 110 gallon horse trough I just mist it 3-4 times a days and mine are very similar to yours tom



Which group?




Yellow Turtle said:


> I'm always interested to read different ways of care for tortoise and the parameters that I always look for are pyramiding and growth. These two methods that Tom describes, I also think too many variables to consider, and I think genetic is the main issue. We see that Sudan sulcata grows much bigger, so I assume they will also grow at much faster pace too. Second thing, is it only me, but I think the ones raised outside appear to be slightly pyramided compare to the sudanese.
> 
> I hope someone will have similar experiment but with same clutch torts.



I do have another group from the same father and a one in three chance of being from the same mother, that were raised in the same enclosure with the Sudans. They are growing at the same rate as the Sudans.

The outdoor raised group IS slightly more pyramided. I attribute this to the dry conditions here, but the pyramiding is a lot less than I anticipated. I am attributing this to their indoor overnight accommodations.


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## Turtulas-Len (Apr 12, 2013)

I am only working with one young sulcata, not groups like you all have, This one is the same age as Toms older group, she will be 11 months old in the last week of April.I have raised her different than any tortoise I have raised before. Basically to simplify it, her set up is the same as Toms closed chamber but without the basking area or the use of a CHE. When inside she has a constant temperature as close to 85 as I can keep it throughout the entire enclosure.When outside where the temps vary she has temps that change with the day.She is not perfectly smooth but much better than I have had before. Today she weighed 772 grams and is 6 inches,took these pics at about 3 pm eastern time today.She does get Mazuri along with as much home grown food as I can grow. During the winter it is a little limited,opuntia, honeysuckle leaves,strawberry leaves,clover, and what ever grass and weeds that are available, the rest is made up of store bought greens.


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## Tom (Apr 12, 2013)

Ver nice Len. So the whole enclosure is kept at 85 day and night with no hot spot? I find this very interesting. No cool down at night?

I've always thought that the basking lamps had a negative drying effect that contributes to or worsens pyramiding. I use floods to spread the heat out because of this notion and I believe that my humid closed chambers mitigate at least some of the effect. It seems t me that simply NOT drying out the carapace in the first place might be a good way to go.

Your enclosure and techniques interest me greatly. May I request a detailed thread with pics, equipment used and all the minutia? I may want to imitate your style and see what I can produce here with it.


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## Yellow Turtle (Apr 14, 2013)

Tom said:


> I do have another group from the same father and a one in three chance of being from the same mother, that were raised in the same enclosure with the Sudans. They are growing at the same rate as the Sudans.
> 
> The outdoor raised group IS slightly more pyramided. I attribute this to the dry conditions here, but the pyramiding is a lot less than I anticipated. I am attributing this to their indoor overnight accommodations.



Thank you for explaining more, Tom. I think you spray the shells several times a day for the outdoor group, and in my case I see it helps a lot.

Too bad I can't afford too much torts of my own to experiment with...

Waiting for new updates of your sudanese and outdoor groups, as well as the african leopards.




Len said:


> I am only working with one young sulcata, not groups like you all have, This one is the same age as Toms older group, she will be 11 months old in the last week of April.I have raised her different than any tortoise I have raised before. Basically to simplify it, her set up is the same as Toms closed chamber but without the basking area or the use of a CHE. When inside she has a constant temperature as close to 85 as I can keep it throughout the entire enclosure.When outside where the temps vary she has temps that change with the day.She is not perfectly smooth but much better than I have had before. Today she weighed 772 grams and is 6 inches,took these pics at about 3 pm eastern time today.She does get Mazuri along with as much home grown food as I can grow. During the winter it is a little limited,opuntia, honeysuckle leaves,strawberry leaves,clover, and what ever grass and weeds that are available, the rest is made up of store bought greens.



Len, he is smooth enough for me. Can I know how long he spends each time for outdoor and inside the chamber?

Thank you for sharing.


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## Deac77 (Apr 14, 2013)

Sorry Tom haven't been on in a while to respond. But I raise mine basically outside like the outside group. I've seen SLIGHT pyramiding as well and I spray the shell many times a day. They also haven't grown as fast as I anticipated but still very quickly.

Ill upload some photos when I get to a computer (using the web app it's not working lol)


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## Turtulas-Len (Apr 14, 2013)

Yellow Turtle said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > I do have another group from the same father and a one in three chance of being from the same mother, that were raised in the same enclosure with the Sudans. They are growing at the same rate as the Sudans.
> ...




This past winter, October to the end of March there was almost zero time outside because it got cold and stayed cold. Now that we are getting some warmer days if the sun is shining she gets at least a couple hours a day of outside time. Also even when it is warm at night I still bring her in and she sleeps in a small enclosure with basically the same setup.


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## Deac77 (Apr 14, 2013)

here are some photos of the sullys that are kept outdoors 90% of the time with a misting system.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Apr 14, 2013)

So do you have a misting system or you just must them?


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## Deac77 (Apr 14, 2013)

have one outside, kinda like a garden mister just hung over their fence lol

inside i mist 3-5 times a day


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## Cowboy_Ken (Apr 14, 2013)

Where do you live? Average humidity in your neck of the woods? I'm in Oregon. I like that my humidity gauge has the digital readout as well as faces to let you know at a glance what the RH is. We always have a frowning face with an umbrella except for 3-4 wks out of the year. I love it. Lol.


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## Deac77 (Apr 14, 2013)

i Live in Lubbock Texas, average humidity in the summer is pretty low 10%-30% but with the mister i can get it up to like 65%-75%


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## Cowboy_Ken (Apr 14, 2013)

That's harsh. I've been in Texas, but I couldn't tell you how much further than Four Corners I was. Lol. I've got moss that grows on the side of my car that is always in the shade. And I mean real moss.


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## Deac77 (Apr 14, 2013)

Haha that's crazy! We have very little rainfall lol but they have ponds lol


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## Cowboy_Ken (Apr 14, 2013)

I've got a seasonal creek that runs through my place. It only runs during the rainy season, (9 months) and 2 months after. Lol. But everything is so green here. Currently the RH outside is 79% at 11:10 pm. It's trying to sprinkle out there. And 43.7 degrees F.


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## Deac77 (Apr 15, 2013)

I like my hot summers we've already hit 97* this year


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