# Please Look At My New Tortoise House Set-Up; I need HELP!!



## Aristotle (May 18, 2011)

I have finally set up my tortoise house (rearranged 3 times based on many threads on TF), and I would love some feedback from all you experts out there, or newbies who have successfully set up their tables. I am pretty happy with the set up, but I really need some advice on certain issues, as I'm not sure Ari is as happy as I am with her abode. Below are photos of the house, which I hope show all the relevant parts of the house. Ari is in one of the hides - she is a bit shy - so I have also attached a photo of her. My questions/issues follow below the photos. BTW - she is a greek (I'm not certain of her subspecies), about 8-9 months old.

Here's some basic info about the house:

Substrate: Pure Coco Coir. Previously I mixed in Cypress Mulch but Ari started eating it. I also have mixed in Repti Bark, but I read on TF that it is difficult for babies to walk on so I don't use it anymore. The hot side has a bottom layer of moist moss (exo-terra forest moss) with about 2-3 inches of coco coir on top; the warm side is coco coir only.

The moss you will see in the photos is a mix of forest moss and sphagnum moss - wet on the hot side and dry on the warm side.

Hot Humid Side: Day - 89-101 degrees, between 20-50% maximum "general" humidity  , humid hides humidity: between 40-50%. Humid Hide #1 is an upside down rectangular plastic container covered in contact paper with cut-out opening; a moist sponge is glued to the "ceiling"; moist moss in the back. [Ari spends most of her time sleeping in Hide #1]. Humid Hide #2 is angled into a hill of layers of moist moss and coco coir. Night: 69-71 degrees (MVB & CHE off; I replace the basking bulb with a 100Watt incandescent bulb if the night is chilly; if not, all lights are off)

Warm Dry Side: Between 71-82 degrees and a bit lower at night. Virtually no humidity.

Please Beware! The warm dry side is sparse and dark and in my opinion looks awful and unwelcoming. Ari NEVER goes in there. I have tried to entice her by placing her cuttlebone slightly inside the entry, but no success so far. I could use some interior designing help here!

'Nuf said . . . here are the photos.





































I have read through the posts in the Enclosures part of the forum (as well as the species-specific Greek posts), and have read just enough to get completely confused as I try to reconcile all the different (but not necessarily inconsistent) advice. That said, I've tried very hard to narrow down the issues. So here we go . . . !

HUMIDITY: This seems to be the most challenging issue for me. With the current set up, the humidity in the hot area only goes up to about 50%, and that's only AFTER I spray the hot section. I believe that I need to have an additional source(s) of moisture as well as increase the temperature of the substrate. I am considering placing heat ropes under the substrate and decreasing the wattage of the lamps, but I'm not sure of the best way to add more moisture. I have read the following ideas: attaching very wet sponges (where?), placing a glass cover over the humid side (where and what about the lighting from above?); installing a waterfall (sounds complicated), and/or using a wet/damp humidifier (sounds expensive & where/how?). I'm sure there is a simple solution that won't require me to take out a second mortgage on my house, or spend all day spraying the house, but I just can't seem to find it.

REGULATING TEMPERATURE: Right now I'm not employed so I have the ability to check the temps a few times a day and make adjustments (ie, changing the CHE from 100 Watts to 60 Watts or vice-versa), but at some point when I find a job I will be out of the house all day. I have looked at the thermostats at PetSmart - they look kind of cheap and flimsy to me, and I question their quality/effectiveness. I figure that Home Depot is the best source for thermostats, so if anyone can recommend a good brand which can handle multiple sources of heat I would appreciate it.

LAMPS: All of my lamps have ceramic bases, so I'm clear on that issue. However, I don't know when a *dome* lamp should be used vs. a *wire* lamp. I assume the dome light provides more concentrated heat, while a wire lamp disburses heat to a larger area (pretty basic), but I don't know which lamps should be concentrated on an area (other than the basking lamp as that seems obvious) or broadly disbursed.

SPARSE WARM AREA: As mentioned above, the warm area is very unwelcoming and DARK (I think it's supposed to be dark given that it has a cover), and Ari never goes in there. If anyone has any ideas to spruce it up to make it into a place Ari would like to visit once in a while, I would really appreciate it.

ANY OTHER ADVICE/SUGGESTIONS IS/ARE WELCOME!! Don't hesitate to offer constructive criticism or make any other comments. I have never been steered wrong here!  

Thanks for your patience reading this very lengthy post (those of you who have successfully trudged through this)! My intention was to minimize the backing and forthing of basic questions that usually follow posts requesting help regarding fairly broad topics.

Thanks in advance!

Best,
Kristina


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## OllieInAZ (May 18, 2011)

Wow...


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## Aristotle (May 18, 2011)

OllieInAZ said:


> Wow...



"Wow" in a good way , or "wow" in a bad way ?


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## OllieInAZ (May 18, 2011)

I'm sure someone will come along with constructive criticism. But wow, very well thought out enclosure and impressive photos complete with annotations and documentation. Any tort would be lucky to live under your care.


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## dmarcus (May 18, 2011)

I am no expert but it looks like you have put a lot of thought into this enclosure. Wish I could help with your question but I am impressed with the work that went it this set up..


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## OllieInAZ (May 18, 2011)

Re: humidity... I use a reptifogger. It was ~$50 I think. But I tend to use it most frequently when I have my hatchlings outside. That way their inside home is nice & warm & humid when they come back inside. I'm in AZ and struggle to keep the environment from getting bone dry.


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## Zouave (May 18, 2011)

Excellent thread of info and annotated pics. Well done ma'am! 

No expert here but if i had to pick something to tweak on your dry warm side to entice Aristotle, i'd have to say nudge the temp up a bit. That seems to be the answer so often. lol As for decor, i would suggest whatever you think looks nice as the tort probably doesn't care all that much.  maybe staple some moss around the opening so it looks more like a natural cave opening? i dunno.

Great enclosure though! Keep it up!


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## DixieParadise (May 18, 2011)

I like it. I agree with other poster that you put some great thought into this. You did a wonderful job, I would love to be a Tort under your care.


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## Aristotle (May 18, 2011)

Thanks for the compliments. I'm afraid my OCD tendencies emerged while I worked on this project. Geez . . . I definitely need a job!! 

OllieinAz:"Any tort would be lucky to live under your care" and DixieParadise: "I would love to be a Tort under your care."

LOL! You are TOO kind! Ari will either be very happy or will soon be packing her things and running to therapy to process the pain that her controlling mother inflicted upon her!!! 

Thanks for the suggestions - the reptifogger, moss around the entrance to the dark warm part, and the temperature increase - I will try them all. Unfortunately, the temperature suggestion leads me to yet another question: How to _slightly_ increase the temperature in that enclosed area since overhead lighting is not an option. The warm section's current temperature results (I think!) from the ambient temperature in my house increased by any heat that may travel from the adjacent hot area. I assume that I will need to put either heat ropes/cables or a heating pad under the substrate, separately from any under-substrate heating system I put in the open, hot area. That's not framed in the form of a question, so I suppose that I am (AGAIN) soliciting advice from anyone out there who happens upon this thread.

Thanks (again). I LOVE this forum!!

Best,
Kristina


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## OllieInAZ (May 18, 2011)

I would expect your warm side temps are impacted heavily by the adjacent lighting & CHE. To achieve a 'slight' increase it may be as easy as moving your CHE over (and down?) a few inches.


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## Aristotle (May 18, 2011)

OllieInAZ said:


> I would expect your warm side temps are impacted heavily by the adjacent lighting & CHE. To achieve a 'slight' increase it may be as easy as moving your CHE over (and down?) a few inches.



You are BRILLIANT! So I will switch the CHE and basking light - I'll give it a try tomorrow. The basking light will do well over there - Ari basks on top of hide #2 (the wooden log hide) quite a bit, with a smug look on her face as if she scaled Mt. Everest! It's hard to see in the photos, but that hide is at quite an angle, and she loves climbing up and down on it. The first time she did it I just about fell out of my chair. She has done it about 100 times since then!

Can tortoises look smug?


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## coreyc (May 19, 2011)

Look's great you could loss the basking bulb the MVB put's out heat she can bask under it just put a flat rock under so she can lay on dont worry about it being boring she wont mine it looks great


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## CtTortoiseMom (May 19, 2011)

Wow, really great job! You thought of EVERYTHING! Your Greek is lucky to have you! I have a wooden enclosure and it is really hard to maintain humidity in it. My suggestion ( only if you find you are having problems keeping it moist) is to cover your humid side with plexi glass.


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## Niffer10 (May 19, 2011)

You're enclosure is amazing, I hope to have something similar by the end of the weekend!


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## Isa (May 19, 2011)

I really like the enclosure  You did a very good job, you thought of everything!


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## lynnedit (May 19, 2011)

Very well thought out. I agree, you could move the CHE closer to the 'cool dry hide', just the proximity would likely warm it up a bit, if needed, although your temps there sound ok. Not sure if you would need the basking light then, or you could move it midway to help with overall warmth if needed, with the MVB toward the warm side. How high off the substrate is the MVB? 
If covering part of the warm humid side does not help increase humidity (might be hard to cover and have the MVB help keep it warm), then you could attach a sponge to the inside roof of one of the humid hides with zip ties (means drilling 2-4 small holes) and moisten it periodically. That way your tort could choose to go in there and self regulate the humidity. The idea of microclimates within an enclosure seems to work well.
As far as the warm dry side, try throwing in a small pile of hay (Timothy, etc.). Mine like to burrow in that, they don't care if it is pretty. And the hay won't degrade as much since it is a drier area, you can still replace it weekly or so. 
Great job!
Lynne


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## Aristotle (May 19, 2011)

Thanks again everyone! I was pleased with how the house turned out, as it was certainly a lot of work (and $!), but it's so nice to receive compliments from impartial tort experts! I really appreciate it. 

This morning I switched the CHE (w 100W bulb) and basking light, so now the CHE is closer to the cool enclosed side; I am monitoring the temp and if it gets too high I will turn off the basking light. IF ANYONE KNOWS WHETHER I SHOULD BE USING THE WIRE LAMPS VS DOME LAMPS FOR EITHER THE MVB OR CHE, PLEASE LET ME KNOW. I still don't understand the difference between the two and am just going with my assumption as articulated in my original post.

@ Lynne: The MVB is 20 inches away from the substrate. I have read so much about the dangers of MVBs being too close, but maybe I am being too conservative? Should it be closer? 
The plastic container hide does have a sponge affixed to the roof, which I wet down every morning. I think it is working because Ari sleeps in there all the time, whereas prior to me putting that hide in this week, she slept in the wood log hide constantly (the humidity in that hide comes from the mountain of moist moss/coco coir at the back of the hide). Granted, she didn't have a choice at that time (with the only other hide being in the abandoned warm side), but I think this suggests that the sponge is working. I got the sponge idea here on TF, and I thought it was a great suggestion! Thanks for reinforcing it.
Does your statement regarding "microclimates" mean that if the hides provide the ideal humidity level (for Greeks it is 55-65% I believe), then a lower humidity in the rest of the hot area is okay? Thanks for the hay suggestion - I will definitely give that a try.

@ ctTortoiseMom: I did think about a plexiglass top (thanks for the idea), but with the overhead lighting I didn't think that was a good idea, and I was worried about air circulation as well. However, if I try all of the ideas that have been posted and they don't sufficiently increase the humidity, I may go with adding a heat source under the substrate, with a cover on top. 

@ coreyc: I initially had a flat rock for Ari for basking, but she never used it! She either slept on the coco coir (right next to the rock!), or on top of the wood log hide, so I just removed it and now it's part of the rock "formation" in the cool side of the enclosure.

Thanks again to everyone!

Best,
Kristina


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## Jacob (May 19, 2011)

This Is very Great!
Very detailed and Everything, My Opinion on Humidity is if you cant get it right
spray it more, i spray my enclosure and torts shell several times daily!

Also Might i Suggest putting Another Substrate on One Side,
so You Have Two Kinds, get the best of both Worlds!
and who knows maybe you will notice which side your torts Loves,
Although i would say the basking side


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## Aristotle (May 19, 2011)

Jacob said:


> This Is very Great!
> Very detailed and Everything, My Opinion on Humidity is if you cant get it right
> spray it more, i spray my enclosure and torts shell several times daily!
> 
> ...



Thanks Jacob. The problem with relying on spraying is that at some point I will be working full time and won't be able to spray the enclosure/tort throughout the day (as much as I would like to!). So a more permanent solution would be best. OllieinAz suggested a repti-fogger, so I'm going to give that a try. I like your idea about different substrates. Any suggestions? I already tried cypress, but Ari started eating it. I also bought some organic soil, but it had large pieces of dark bark in it which I didn't like, and it smelled so I never used it. I've seen references to Aspen bedding, but the PetSmart near my house only has COLORED Aspen bedding. What do you recommend?

As for Ari's favorite side, you are correct - I think she's already voted for the hot/basking side. I would be happy if she goes into the cool side JUST ONCE!! 

Thanks for your suggestions.

Best,
Kristina


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## coreyc (May 19, 2011)

You should cover part of the top with plexiglass to keep the humidity in is she eating the cypress or nibbling at it ? what are you feeding her ?


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## Aristotle (May 19, 2011)

coreyc said:


> You should cover part of the top with plexiglass to keep the humidity in is she eating the cypress or nibbling at it ? what are you feeding her ?



When I mixed in the cypress about a month ago, she went at it - this was no nibbling. I posted about it and received responses questioning whether she was getting enough calcium and Vit D - which she was (I sprinkle a light covering of Vit D and Calcium powder on her daily meal(s) [sometimes she eats twice]. She also has a cuttlebone that she uses daily. So I took the cautious route and removed the cypress. She seems happy with the coco coir, and I find it easy to spot clean each day.

As for her diet, I try to feed her a variety of organic veggies: lettuce (romaine, green leaf, red leaf, spring mix), collard greens, kale, shredded carrot (very sparingly). I tried yellow squash, mustard greens and dandelion greens, but she wouldn't eat them (maybe too spicy for a baby?). Outside of veggies once a week as a treat I have tried shreds of apple, tiny pieces of bananas, a tiny piece of mango, and some rose petals - she totally ignored them. I am going to buy some of that Manzumi (I may have spelled it wrong) after reading so much about it on TF, but PetSmart only has it for cats/dogs and I wasn't sure if that was okay for torts. Any diet advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

Best,
Kristina


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## gmayor (May 19, 2011)

very nice like the other people said any tort would be lucky to live in that set up very well done.


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## Aristotle (May 19, 2011)

I don't mean to bombard you all with photos, but I just took this one of a sleepy Ari in her new humid hide. You can see the yellow sponge on the ceiling, which is attached by velcro superglued to the ceiling and top of sponge. It's very handy and easy to remove to get it wet and put it right back in. And it's great at raising and maintaining the humidity. Don't be fooled by how light the picture is, as the hide is dark inside. The light came from the flash of the camera - I hope that doesn't damage torts' eyes.


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## coreyc (May 19, 2011)

Aristotle said:


> I don't mean to bombard you all with photos, but I just took this one of a sleepy Ari in her new humid hide. You can see the yellow sponge on the ceiling, which is attached by velcro superglued to the ceiling and top of sponge. It's very handy and easy to remove to get it wet and put it right back in. And it's great at raising and maintaining the humidity. Don't be fooled by how light the picture is, as the hide is dark inside. The light came from the flash of the camera - I hope that doesn't damage torts' eyes.




Great pic's love it


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## Fernando (May 19, 2011)

I like that sponge idea...I'm going to super glue sponges all over the tank now! haha


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## lynnedit (May 19, 2011)

Aristotle said:


> Thanks again everyone! I was pleased with how the house turned out, as it was certainly a lot of work (and $!), but it's so nice to receive compliments from impartial tort experts! I really appreciate it.
> 
> This morning I switched the CHE (w 100W bulb) and basking light, so now the CHE is closer to the cool enclosed side; I am monitoring the temp and if it gets too high I will turn off the basking light. IF ANYONE KNOWS WHETHER I SHOULD BE USING THE WIRE LAMPS VS DOME LAMPS FOR EITHER THE MVB OR CHE, PLEASE LET ME KNOW. I still don't understand the difference between the two and am just going with my assumption as articulated in my original post.
> 
> ...



Yes, microclimates means several humidity/lighting choices. Young torts overall need more humidity than adults, but Mediterranean torts less than tropical/African torts. Of course, you are also soaking your tort, too. Giving them choices in the enclosure to self regulate is the key.
You can have the MVB as close as 12 inches, to about 18 inches, to get the basking area warm enough. Just go by the basking area temp. Can't remember, do you have a temp gun? Anyway, if you follow those guidelines, your tort will be fine.
The CHE should always have a ceramic base. Officially, the wire cage fixture is the one to use with the CHE (always make sure the wattage allowance on bulb is the same or less than the max allowed on the fixture).
Some use dome lights for the CHE with a wire cage cover,and a ceramic base, like this:
http://www.petmountain.com/show_product/11442-505017 attached to this:
http://www.petmountain.com/show_product/11442-504915.
(I used 'Pet Mountain' for the pictures, just one online store).

Actually, I think what you have for the CHE is fine! 
Lynne


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## Yvonne G (May 19, 2011)

Its called Mazuri Tortoise Diet, and you can order it anywhere Purina products are sold (usually feed dealers). You can also buy smaller quantities from folks here on the forum. Just do a search for Mazuri and you'll find out who sells it.


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## CtTortoiseMom (May 19, 2011)

I like your sponge idea!


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## evlinLoutries (May 20, 2011)

Amazing!


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## Aristotle (May 20, 2011)

Thanks to all of you! Everyone here is so nice and validating. My kids think I have gone insane with my obsession with Ari and her tortoise house, but you are "my people" and can totally relate!  As one of your people, I think I appreciate the house more than Ari, but maybe she has a slight memory of being the glass tank and scratching against the glass for hours, and is grateful for her new digs. Actually, maybe it's best if she forgets the glass tank period!

As for the sponge idea, it was absolutely not my original idea. I'm sure I got it from a thread here on TF. The only thing I did differently was to affix the sponge with velcro so it's easy to remove to clean and make it really wet every day. *@ Fernando* - you mentioned superglue, which I initially used and didn't like. I didn't like it because I found it difficult to re-wet the sponges, both in the hides and on the walls of the house (I just have them in the hides now). You can buy velcro strips (at Home Depot, CVS, probably Target too) that stick to the sponge and to the surface to which you want to attach the sponge; then all you do is press the two velcro strips together and voila - moisture. I did use superglue to affix the velcro to the sponge, and it's holding up very well. The sponge I used was a regular kitchen sponge - yellow on one side, with the other side made up of a green scouring surface (more rough, sturdy and less porous than the yellow part) - so that is where I affixed the velcro. It's been successful so far.

In my on-going effort to achieve and maintain the proper level of humidity I am putting together a water drip system that will gradually drip water into a dish with moss covered by a few rocks. I'm still thinking about the specifics of setting it up and where I want to put it - the house is already pretty crowded. The wheat grass may have to go - Ari is ignoring it. But I do like how it kind of brightens up the place. (I may have to remodel!  !!) 

Thanks again for all the positive feedback. It really makes my day!

Have a good weekend everyone!

Best,
Kristina


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## Fernando (May 20, 2011)

Cool! Thanks for the info....


Try not to remodel TOO much because it can stress a tortoise out. Have fun!


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## lynnedit (May 20, 2011)

yes, your tort will appreciate overall stability of the enclosure now,but a few tweaks like the water dish supply are fine.
you could scatter some flower or mixed lettuce seeds on the subtrate, especially around the edges, to see if it makes it before being mowed over...


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## Aristotle (May 20, 2011)

@ Lynne & Fernando (Andy?) - You're absolutely right about stressing the poor little tort out with more changes. Instead of the water drip I may do the repti-fogger unless it is too intrusive and is a substantial change to Ari's little world. I really need to turn my attention elsewhere - I actually had a dream last night about modifying one of the hides!!! Pretty frightening!!!

So I promise not to even THINK about tortoises all weekend . . . Errrr . . . at least until the Tortoise Show on Sunday . . .

Thanks to both of you for the great advice.

Best,
Kristina


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## Fernando (May 20, 2011)

Aristotle said:


> @ Lynne & Fernando (Andy?) - You're absolutely right about stressing the poor little tort out with more changes. Instead of the water drip I may do the repti-fogger unless it is too intrusive and is a substantial change to Ari's little world. I really need to turn my attention elsewhere - I actually had a dream last night about modifying one of the hides!!! Pretty frightening!!!
> 
> So I promise not to even THINK about tortoises all weekend . . . Errrr . . . at least until the Tortoise Show on Sunday . . .
> 
> ...



Make sure you say hi! 

Andy is the name of my tortoise (the sulcata) 

Android people call the Android system Andy...hence my tortoises name. "Android Enthusiast" Is sort of a two part title


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