# Hermann's Heating



## BowandWalter (Oct 1, 2012)

I've been having trouble figuring out the proper heat for a Hermann's. I'm starting to think Walter might be to warm, and a picture is worth a thousand words  I think my main hair brained method was to try for a bunch of different temperature zones, so Walter can decide where he wants to be.

And I know his house is very tiny, I fully acknowledge that it is (I'm attempting to become handy so I can make another level).


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## GBtortoises (Oct 2, 2012)

For any of the Hermann's subspecies the active level daytime temperatures should be around 68-78 at the cooler end with a basking temperature of about 90-100 (max) for babies, adults can withstand slightly warmer basking temps. You hear a lot of talk about warmer end temperatures. If you have the basking light at one end in an enclosure that is large enough the warmer end will automatically be created by the radiant heat of the basking light. These temperatures are all with the assumption that the room the enclosure is in has a temperature range of around 62-70 degrees. An enclosure in a cooler room or area will cause cooler temperatures within the enclosure and warmer temperatures if the room is warmer. This is true to a degree even in a completely enclosed set up unless the entire thing is super insulated. The night time temperatures should be in the range of 55-65 degrees max. Around 60 would be ideal. 

I don't understand your photo. How is it possible that the temperatures are hotter away from the light? And yes, the enclosure is _way_ too small for a tortoise that size! A larger, longer wooden enclosure or Rubbermaid style storage container would be much better.


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## Tom (Oct 2, 2012)

I don't think your idea was hair brained. Seems like you've got it right. A warm area to go and bask when he wants to, and cooler areas to retreat to when he's warm enough. And bigger enclosures are always better. I think that is true for all of us. 

I think sometimes we over think this stuff and make it too complicated. I know I sure do. Because of the need for over all lower temps than some of the more tropical species, I think Testudo species are the easiest to keep. Just set a basking lamp on a timer over one end, adjust the height or wattage to get the right temp, and walk away...


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## BowandWalter (Oct 3, 2012)

GBtortoises said:


> For any of the Hermann's subspecies the active level daytime temperatures should be around 68-78 at the cooler end with a basking temperature of about 90-100 (max) for babies, adults can withstand slightly warmer basking temps. You hear a lot of talk about warmer end temperatures. If you have the basking light at one end in an enclosure that is large enough the warmer end will automatically be created by the radiant heat of the basking light. These temperatures are all with the assumption that the room the enclosure is in has a temperature range of around 62-70 degrees. An enclosure in a cooler room or area will cause cooler temperatures within the enclosure and warmer temperatures if the room is warmer. This is true to a degree even in a completely enclosed set up unless the entire thing is super insulated. The night time temperatures should be in the range of 55-65 degrees max. Around 60 would be ideal.
> 
> I don't understand your photo. How is it possible that the temperatures are hotter away from the light? And yes, the enclosure is way too small for a tortoise that size! A larger, longer wooden enclosure or Rubbermaid style storage container would be much better.



The heat cables are under those rocks  my roommates can attest that my attempts at being "handy" have run through everyone's band aids, made a huge mess, and killed an embarrassing number of trees. 
My Dad made me this one when it was summer and Walter only slept in it, I'm trying to convince him to make an add on for me. I would try to swap it for a bigger Rubbermaid but it's actually to heavy for me to move.




Tom said:


> I don't think your idea was hair brained. Seems like you've got it right. A warm area to go and bask when he wants to, and cooler areas to retreat to when he's warm enough. And bigger enclosures are always better. I think that is true for all of us.
> 
> I think sometimes we over think this stuff and make it too complicated. I know I sure do. Because of the need for over all lower temps than some of the more tropical species, I think Testudo species are the easiest to keep. Just set a basking lamp on a timer over one end, adjust the height or wattage to get the right temp, and walk away...



That sounds way to easy  his MVB doesn't seem to throw enough heat to have the basking spot under it, should I raise it up so it doesn't add any heat and just have the heat cables going?


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## Pokeymeg (Oct 3, 2012)

The idea of under the ground heating makes me nervous. It can be dangerous if a tortoise does not expect heat from underneath (most anticipate heat from above- the sun, etc) and can overheat itself without realizing.

My MVB does not give off enough heat to heat my enclosure (much bigger though- 2' x 6') either. I believe it is 100w. So I have a secondary 100w bulb hot a real 'hot spot'. In such a small enclosure, you would want much less wattage I think. 

Can none of your roommates help you build something? It wouldn't take more than 45 minutes of their time - Hammer together 4 walls and a bottom, line the enclosure and you're good. You can even have everything cut to size at home depot for free- No saw needed!


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## BowandWalter (Oct 3, 2012)

Pokeymeg said:


> The idea of under the ground heating makes me nervous. It can be dangerous if a tortoise does not expect heat from underneath (most anticipate heat from above- the sun, etc) and can overheat itself without realizing.
> 
> My MVB does not give off enough heat to heat my enclosure (much bigger though- 2' x 6') either. I believe it is 100w. So I have a secondary 100w bulb hot a real 'hot spot'. In such a small enclosure, you would want much less wattage I think.
> 
> Can none of your roommates help you build something? It wouldn't take more than 45 minutes of their time - Hammer together 4 walls and a bottom, line the enclosure and you're good. You can even have everything cut to size at home depot for free- No saw needed!



Walter seems pretty good about it, he sits there after breakfast and then goes elsewhere. I tried using CHE's to make a hot spot before I switched to heat cables, I had a 150 watt CHE and it only ever made a hot spot of 80, and used a lot of electricity, the heat cables only use 15 watts, they also hold heat when the power goes out, which was very common in my home town.

My roommates have offered assistance, they just give up faster then I do. Or have social lives.

My original question seems to have been lost in favor of bashing my enclosure. I know it's to small, I already feel guilty about it, Walter still goes to his outside pen at my cousins 3-4 times a week. Hopefully by the time it gets cold my efforts at carpentry will have paid off. Could people please pay attention to my actual question?


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## GBtortoises (Oct 3, 2012)

"The heat cables are under those rocks"

There is no reason to use heat cables, especially with this species.


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## BowandWalter (Oct 3, 2012)

GBtortoises said:


> "The heat cables are under those rocks"
> 
> There is no reason to use heat cables, especially with this species.



Don't they need a basking spot of 95-100?


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## Pokeymeg (Oct 3, 2012)

Yes, basking area 95-100 is ideal. Ambient temp 70s/80s (for me this varies a bit on the season ). At night, it can get fairly cool, 65 would be perfectly OK!


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## BowandWalter (Oct 3, 2012)

Pokeymeg said:


> Yes, basking area 95-100 is ideal. Ambient temp 70s/80s (for me this varies a bit on the season ). At night, it can get fairly cool, 65 would be perfectly OK!



Thanks!


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## lynnedit (Oct 3, 2012)

Actually, when 'basking spot' is mentioned, they are referring to heat from above, MVBs and basking lights being our feeble attempts to mimic the sun.
With the mediterranean torts like Russians, Hermanns, etc., they generally don't need heat from the bottom/underground.
They need to be able to cool off at night to say, the 60's, and then go over to their basking light around 95 to 100f or so, in the am, to warm up. During the course of the day, they move back and forth; they will especially seek out heat after eating. It seems to be essential for them to cool off, especially at night.

Torts from warmer climates like Redfoots do need more warmth all around, and can benefit from under substrate heating.

It definitely sounds like you care a lot for your tort. It is great that he gets outside for real sun 3-4x per week. And at some point you can get a bigger enclosure, when you are able (overturned bookcase from CL or Good will, etc.).

Meanwhile, make sure the temps on one side are warm/basking, under the light (so he can warm up from heat above him), and one side is cool, both substrate and air temps. With your size enclosure, you could achieve this with an MVB or basking light (since he gets UV from the sun too), on one side and nothing on the other side. That's the bottom line with these kind of torts.


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## BowandWalter (Oct 3, 2012)

lynnedit said:


> Actually, when 'basking spot' is mentioned, they are referring to heat from above, MVBs and basking lights being our feeble attempts to mimic the sun.
> With the mediterranean torts like Russians, Hermanns, etc., they generally don't need heat from the bottom/underground.
> They need to be able to cool off at night to say, the 60's, and then go over to their basking light around 95 to 100f or so, in the am, to warm up. During the course of the day, they move back and forth; they will especially seek out heat after eating. It seems to be essential for them to cool off, especially at night.
> 
> ...




Thank you 
So the ground heating doesn't help with digestion? I'd gone along the line of the sun heats the rocks, so the rocks are warm, thinking. If that makes any sense. 
This all just seems way to easy.


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## lynnedit (Oct 3, 2012)

Well, the basking/MVB bulbs do heat up the rocks that you have under it, but that's enough. A timer for your light is nice, so the light can come on early (6am?) so the rocks under the light are nice and warm by basking time. Also, that's why we adjust our light source up and down; to get the basking area temp right.
IF your house was really freezing, then cable under the warm side would be OK. But I would imagine it is 68f or so during the day at least.

Yes, it is fairly easy with Mediterranean torts in a smaller enclosure. 
When you do get a bigger enclosure, you can research threads about lighting and heating larger spaces. 
But the basic concept is still maintaining a warm side (including a hot basking spot) and a cool side...


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## BowandWalter (Oct 3, 2012)

lynnedit said:


> Well, the basking/MVB bulbs do heat up the rocks that you have under it, but that's enough. A timer for your light is nice, so the light can come on early (6am?) so the rocks under the light are nice and warm by basking time. Also, that's why we adjust our light source up and down; to get the basking area temp right.
> IF your house was really freezing, then cable under the warm side would be OK. But I would imagine it is 68f or so during the day at least.
> 
> Yes, it is fairly easy with Mediterranean torts in a smaller enclosure.
> ...



That is ridiculously easy. I have a timer, but I'm normally up then anyways. Will it shock Walter if I just turn the heat cables off cold turkey or should I slowly change it?


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## lynnedit (Oct 3, 2012)

What are you using to measure your temps? an infared thermometer, for example? You just want to make sure the temps you do measure are accurate.
If they are accurate, and your house is 68F or so, then as long as you maintain the basking (95 to 100F), warm area around that (80ish) and cool side of 65 to 70F, then you can just turn them off.


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## BowandWalter (Oct 3, 2012)

lynnedit said:


> What are you using to measure your temps? an infared thermometer, for example? You just want to make sure the temps you do measure are accurate.
> If they are accurate, and your house is 68F or so, then as long as you maintain the basking (95 to 100F), warm area around that (80ish) and cool side of 65 to 70F, then you can just turn them off.



I have a temperature gun made by Zilla. It always seemed accurate when I tested it on fish tanks. My room is 70 right now, I had the windows open all afternoon because it was nice out. The basking area doesn't have to be on at night right?


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## lynnedit (Oct 4, 2012)

The Zilla Temp gun is fine!
That is correct, no heat at all needed at night. 
Basking/MVB on 12-14 hours per day.


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## BowandWalter (Oct 4, 2012)

lynnedit said:


> The Zilla Temp gun is fine!
> That is correct, no heat at all needed at night.
> Basking/MVB on 12-14 hours per day.



Okydoke! I switched it all over last night, I'll see how Walter feels this morning!


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## lynnedit (Oct 4, 2012)

Hope he doesn't disappoint us, lol.

Sometimes you have to help them adjust with a good warm soak (not a bad idea a couple of times per week for torts inside with heat bulbs, etc.), then relocate under the light so he gets the idea...


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## BowandWalter (Oct 4, 2012)

He gets soaked every Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday, and Sunday. Usually.

He seems no worse for wear, he's running around just like normal.


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## lynnedit (Oct 5, 2012)

Lol, he probably doesn't care either way.
Still, it is probably best over the long run.


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## BowandWalter (Oct 5, 2012)

lynnedit said:


> Lol, he probably doesn't care either way.
> Still, it is probably best over the long run.



What happens if their kept to warm? Just grow really fast? Or like horrifyingly bad stuff?

Walter had a big growth spurt a few weeks ago but it's his first since I got him last January.


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## lynnedit (Oct 5, 2012)

In general, over time, some torts that are kept too warm will tend to hide and burrow a lot to stay cool.
So far Walter has seemed to do well either way, but you don't want to see that happen.

Their appetite does seem to wax and wane, so growth can do the same.


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## BowandWalter (Oct 5, 2012)

A world were Walter spends anytime hiding is not one I can imagine, he's never showed any interest in being shy, or digging. Living with him is like dwelling with a violently aggressive cat, who bites feet at any given moment.


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## lynnedit (Oct 6, 2012)

He sounds best as a solo tortoise!

In any case, now you don't have to worry about him being too warm, as you were in the original post.

Eventually he might like a second level, or larger enclosure, as active as he is.


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## BowandWalter (Oct 6, 2012)

lynnedit said:


> He sounds best as a solo tortoise!
> 
> In any case, now you don't have to worry about him being too warm, as you were in the original post.
> 
> Eventually he might like a second level, or larger enclosure, as active as he is.



He is very much solo, I want to raise a hatchling at some point but it would not be living with him.
His aggression is always geared towards me, everyone else he just ignores.

I have heat lamps around my room, so he comes out when I'm doing homework, but I'm still attempting building an add on.


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## lynnedit (Oct 6, 2012)

sounds good!


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