# Buying WC Tortoise from reputable breeder??



## goldie (Sep 6, 2011)

So I purchased a wc tortoise from Tortoise Supply. I did a little research and from what I have read.. a lot of people are against it. I purchased captive born from Tyler and I love them! I have a a great set up outside and all three are going to be apart. I bought tons of weeds from carolina pet supply and filled their pens with large shaded areas with rocks and many other things.. so question is why does it seem bad to purchase wc?? I am not breeding but just love them and they have become my hobby and passion!


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## Schlomo (Sep 6, 2011)

Here's a good article on why you should buy captive bred tortoises instead of wild caught:

http://www.tortoisereserve.org/research/Bred_Torts_Body2.html 

Here are some conditions a wild caught tortoise has to endure:

Packed in snack boxes to be smuggled:







Crammed into crates:


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## african cake queen (Sep 6, 2011)

hi, a better person can answer your question. i learned the hard way. got wc at a reptile show.i feel bad because they were snatched form their home in africa.they should still be there. i have pancakes and knew very little before i got them. now i have to live with it. torts. go thur alot when they are stolen from their homes and shipped to where ever. then there are many vet. bills. most i think, die from being kept in poor places while being sold.had got a pair at the show few years ago and my male momo died at the vets.i feel very bad about that. i wish they didnt sell wc anything. too each his own right? lindy


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## goldie (Sep 6, 2011)

So sorry for your loss! The article is educational..the reason I bought him.. is because I felt bad. I wanted to provide him with a good place to free roam and give him some kind of open place to feel more at home. I know he will never feel that way but I am hoping with great care he will make it. I know Tortoise Supply takes good care of their tortoise so I am hoping he will be in good condition. He is my first wc tortoise and will be my last..


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## african cake queen (Sep 6, 2011)

goldie said:


> So sorry for your loss! The article is educational..the reason I bought him.. is because I felt bad. I wanted to provide him with a good place to free roam and give him some kind of open place to feel more at home. I know he will never feel that way but I am hoping with great care he will make it. I know Tortoise Supply takes good care of their tortoise so I am hoping he will be in good condition. He is my first wc tortoise and will be my last..



we all learn. my pair of cakes are fine now. fat and happy and in tortoise love. i want another female , but cb is the way i will go when i am ready. good luck with your guys and enjoy them. lindy. ps. the other pictures made me cry. so so sad.


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## Schlomo (Sep 6, 2011)

goldie said:


> So sorry for your loss! The article is educational..the reason I bought him.. is because I felt bad. I wanted to provide him with a good place to free roam and give him some kind of open place to feel more at home. I know he will never feel that way but I am hoping with great care he will make it. I know Tortoise Supply takes good care of their tortoise so I am hoping he will be in good condition. He is my first wc tortoise and will be my last..



I think the tortoises I ended up adopting are wild caught. Given the right care and environment, I'm sure your tortoise will be happy. Food shows up magically and don't have to worry about predators? Can't beat that. It's just that so many of these tortoises end up in the wrong hands of people who don't know how to care for them and it provides an incentive for people to continue to capture and smuggle them - too many die before they end up at their destination.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 6, 2011)

In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with buying a wc tortoise from a reputable dealer. I'm sure that Tyler from Tortoise Supply doesn't buy smuggled tortoises. He is a member here and is above-board in his tortoise dealings.

Trouble with buying wc tortoises from just anyone is that you don't know how the tortoise got here. Chances are that tortoises like Russians, Greeks, etc. are here legally, but chances are pretty good that wc stars, radiateds, etc probably are not.

Just my opinion...I have no facts or science to back myself up.


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## goldie (Sep 6, 2011)

I agree the pictures are devastating to look at! I really agree about Tortoise Supply, I would not have bought wc for anyone but I trust the source. I am hoping with the 400 dollars I spent on plants and supplies.. hours of burning in the hot sun and prickly pear sticking to my entire body my new kid will be happy in his enclosure. lol


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## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 6, 2011)

emysemys said:


> In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with buying a wc tortoise from a reputable dealer. I'm sure that Tyler from Tortoise Supply doesn't buy smuggled tortoises. He is a member here and is above-board in his tortoise dealings.
> 
> Trouble with buying wc tortoises from just anyone is that you don't know how the tortoise got here. Chances are that tortoises like Russians, Greeks, etc. are here legally, but chances are pretty good that wc stars, radiateds, etc probably are not.
> 
> Just my opinion...I have no facts or science to back myself up.



 Our opinion also.


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## dmmj (Sep 6, 2011)

I have a love hate with buying WC, of course I don't want to deplete the wild populations, but without WC then most of us would have not any tortoises. And of course with WC specimens you have health issues also to contend with.


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## TylerStewart (Sep 6, 2011)

Schlomo said:


> Here's a good article on why you should buy captive bred tortoises instead of wild caught:
> 
> http://www.tortoisereserve.org/research/Bred_Torts_Body2.html
> 
> ...



Just so it's clear, there's a large difference between what these photos show and what actually happens.... These are smuggled tortoises in the images, which are worse than wild caught tortoises. Anything we have or offer is imported legally. They ship in large flat wooden crates with many dividers separating tortoises into groups of 2-3 per area. There's newspaper between them and they aren't stacked at all (the wood boxes are only maybe 6" high). We get them in and immediately start hydrating them and treating them for potential parasites that they likely do have when they come in. We have had very, very little issues with wild caught tortoises. I would say by the numbers, we don't lose any more WC animals than we do captive bred ones over the course of a year. Like was said, they can come in with health issues; a huge majority of which are parasite related. By hitting these early on which very few vendors do, you eliminate a huge part of the problem. Even if you don't clean them out completely, reducing the load and taking the stress off early on helps out a lot. We don't guarantee our WC animals are completely parasite free, but we offer the same guarantee on them as we do on anything. 

At the end of the day, if someone new is getting a tortoise and is deciding between a 4" WC Greek or a 2" CB baby Greek, I bet that one of the WC Greeks (started off right) has just as good of a chance of being alive in 3 years as the baby does.


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## dmmj (Sep 6, 2011)

thanks tyler I think people often confuse legal importation with illegally smuggled ones.


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## TylerStewart (Sep 6, 2011)

dmmj said:


> thanks tyler I think people often confuse legal importation with illegally smuggled ones.



Yeah, for sure they do. There's many websites out there that intentionally make it sound like the legal importation brings in tortoises in the same conditions as the smuggled shipments are in. The previously linked site is one of them. The majority of the photos and "horror stories" that are used in this propaganda are decades old. Nowadays, if legal shipments are not packed right, they can't even get into the country.


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## african cake queen (Sep 6, 2011)

hi ,do wc come with papers? i thought they stopped shipping pancake torts. how do you know if they are legal? just want to know. thanks lindy ps. i was not bad mouthing anyone. just feel sorry for wc.


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## Schlomo (Sep 6, 2011)

TylerStewart said:


> Just so it's clear, there's a large difference between what these photos show and what actually happens.... These are smuggled tortoises in the images, which are worse than wild caught tortoises. Anything we have or offer is imported legally. They ship in large flat wooden crates with many dividers separating tortoises into groups of 2-3 per area. There's newspaper between them and they aren't stacked at all (the wood boxes are only maybe 6" high). We get them in and immediately start hydrating them and treating them for potential parasites that they likely do have when they come in. We have had very, very little issues with wild caught tortoises. I would say by the numbers, we don't lose any more WC animals than we do captive bred ones over the course of a year. Like was said, they can come in with health issues; a huge majority of which are parasite related. By hitting these early on which very few vendors do, you eliminate a huge part of the problem. Even if you don't clean them out completely, reducing the load and taking the stress off early on helps out a lot. We don't guarantee our WC animals are completely parasite free, but we offer the same guarantee on them as we do on anything.
> 
> At the end of the day, if someone new is getting a tortoise and is deciding between a 4" WC Greek or a 2" CB baby Greek, I bet that one of the WC Greeks (started off right) has just as good of a chance of being alive in 3 years as the baby does.



My apologies if that seemed like it was directed at you. I was replying more to the why is it bad to purchase wild caught tortoises - Reading the whole post again - i missed the "reputable dealer" part and focused more on the "why does it seem bad to purchase WC". 

I've personally seen a few warehouses in Florida where they imported exotic animals and these conditions were very similar to what I saw (not the smuggling, but the 100s of small tortoises crammed into crates) - although this was over a decade ago. What I saw has kind of stuck with me to this day and is the first thing that pops to mind when I read "wild caught". 

I'm a bit curious though as I am sort of new to the tortoise world, you seem to have a good selection of captive bred tortoises - is there any particular reason you supplement that with a small selection of wild caught tortoises?


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## dmmj (Sep 6, 2011)

The cramped conditions happen here in LA also, you can go to downtown LA and see russians crammed into small enclosures, waiting for buyers to come by, you can pick up a russian for like 10 buck, but you gotta buy like 30 of them at a time.


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## goldie (Sep 6, 2011)

I am sorry to create such a stir just throwing it out there since I got so much crap from people when I said I was purchasing a wc tortoise. I would only purchase from a place I know would provide me with an excellent tortoises. My first tortoise was a hatchling I purchased from you Tyler and he is flourishing and so awesome. I am actually excited about caring for The Butcher(wc name) to arrive..I am ready to take over the care and provide my torty with the excellent care you provided. I just wanted to know why people were giving me so much crap for it.. but yes post was reputable breeder so a very trusted source..so thats why I was confused as to why people were still against it. 

opps and I didn't mean anyone here(crap)and when I say wc I just mean not captive since that is the first thing people ask me. okay I will take my foot out of my mouth now! lol I will post pics when The Butcher arrives tomorrow


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## Schlomo (Sep 6, 2011)

goldie said:


> I am sorry to create such a stir just throwing it out there since I got so much crap from people when I said I was purchasing a wc tortoise. I would only purchase from a place I know would provide me with an excellent tortoises. My first tortoise was a hatchling I purchased from you Tyler and he is flourishing and so awesome. I am actually excited about caring for The Butcher(wc name) to arrive..I am ready to take over the care and provide my torty with the excellent care you provided. I just wanted to know why people were giving me so much crap for it.. but yes post was reputable breeder so a very trusted source..so thats why I was confused as to why people were still against it.
> 
> opps and I didn't mean anyone here(crap)and when I say wc I just mean not captive since that is the first thing people ask me. okay I will take my foot out of my mouth now! lol I will post pics when The Butcher arrives tomorrow





People that were giving you crap were probably like me in that the term "wild caught" immediately made me think of those images I linked to earlier. I didn't even notice the reputable dealer part so i probably inserted my big feet into my mouth too. Anyways, I'm sure you'll give the Butcher a great home.


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## natty01 (Sep 6, 2011)

im in the uk and recently bought two horsefields tortoises from a reptile center . i specifically asked if they were captive bred because i didnt want a wild caught one and id heard about the horrid way they are transported . i was told yes they were captive bred. that put my mind at ease. later on i asked where they came from and he said checkoslovakia i was like what ? i thought you said captive bred , he said yes captive bred in slovakia , i was a bit pissed that i was buying imported tortoises but brought them home anyway. 

now my mum is going nuts . she is convinced that you cant legally import tortoises and that mine are stolen from the wild and sent here illegally . she is really mad at me because they dont have paperwork , i told her that horsefields dont need paperwork but she is far from convinced and is sure that i have been conned . 

the man said they come here as babies and go to a dealer who raises them until they are bigger and ready to be sold on to homes.

has anyone else in the uk been told this


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## ascott (Sep 6, 2011)

"I" personally believe that a wild caught is a wild caught.....which means to "me", these little ones were once in the wild....someone went into the wild and collected the wild caught tortoise. It is what it is. No matter how one wants to word it. Wild caught means the tortoise/turtle had to be caught in the wild....no way around it.

I understand that there is a COMPLETELY different way in which to ship them, you have the horrid cramped disease ridden smuggling way to move the wild caught tortoise vs. the labeled humane way of boxing/shipping them. Regardless of which method the tortoise/turtle are shipped, they are and always will be wild caught, snatched from their natural and native lands. Others are snatched up out of the wild intended for human consumption.

"I" do not support wild caught, especially for food or pet, just don't. There are sooooo many tortoise and turtles that are sitting in horrid conditions, some are lucky enough to make it to a rescue and others are, well, just lucky to die early instead of "surviving" in disgusting conditions for years with no hope of a rescue. 

I know that as humans we want what we want and we can clearly explain away, excuse away...ration with in our own minds...our methods used in getting what we want. After all, we do have thumbs---so that allows us to do what "we" feel is aok. 

I am not stating my beliefs here in an effort to bash, slam, belittle, **** off, alienate nor disgruntle any breeders on the forum, or any where else....I simply am compelled to state my beliefs here as every one else has....


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## TylerStewart (Sep 6, 2011)

> I'm a bit curious though as I am sort of new to the tortoise world, you seem to have a good selection of captive bred tortoises - is there any particular reason you supplement that with a small selection of wild caught tortoises?



We offer WC tortoises because many, many people want to breed them, and WC tortoises offer an advantage of several years as well as essentially a whole new set of bloodlines. In putting together a breeding group, it can be difficult to find CB tortoises from several people in the same year of the same locale to keep everything unrelated. WC shipments are generally all the same type of tortoise, whether it's Greeks or whatever, so buying a few from the same shipment you usually have all the same subspecies. Being from the wild, you can pretty much assume they're not related; at least not enough that it's a concern. Besides sulcatas and leopards, most of our breeding groups are made up of originally WC animals. 



goldie said:


> I am sorry to create such a stir just throwing it out there since I got so much crap from people when I said I was purchasing a wc tortoise. I would only purchase from a place I know would provide me with an excellent tortoises. My first tortoise was a hatchling I purchased from you Tyler and he is flourishing and so awesome. I am actually excited about caring for The Butcher(wc name) to arrive..I am ready to take over the care and provide my torty with the excellent care you provided. I just wanted to know why people were giving me so much crap for it.. but yes post was reputable breeder so a very trusted source..so thats why I was confused as to why people were still against it.
> 
> opps and I didn't mean anyone here(crap)and when I say wc I just mean not captive since that is the first thing people ask me. okay I will take my foot out of my mouth now! lol I will post pics when The Butcher arrives tomorrow





Oh it's no big deal at all.... I don't deny that there are plenty of bad places (particularly in FL where they import into) that house them in bad conditions, but it really has little to do with them being WC.... They house CB stuff in bad conditions too. When the last shipment I bought from came in, I had a friend in Florida making sure that the tortoises never even touched the dirt in FL. I didn't want them to, because the holding places are often as bad as the shipping conditions. Mine went from crate to soaking in a plastic bin back to rinsed out crate and onto Vegas the same day with Delta Dash. I'm convinced that more damage gets done in the week after import with many tortoises than the import process itself. 

Regardless, I don't even know your name (from this thread), but based on the conversation, I think I know which tortoise/order I sent you (invoice 3998?), and it'll be totally bulletproof. Enjoy, and get some pics posted!


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## Jacqui (Sep 6, 2011)

First off, I am glad your all staying civil to each other on this thread.

My own opinion is there is nothing wrong with buying a WC. The way I look at is: A) this animal is already out of his native habitat, there is no putting him back. B) if he were left in his native habitat and the people who would have earned money from selling him, no longer have that income. What do they do for food? Chances are, they may eat the animal. Now how did that help the wild population? Is there even any place in his native land for him to actually live and thrive? C) Okay the tortoise is here and for sale. How does it help THAT tortoise to let it sit and not get bought? What happens to THAT tortoise's life and/or genes if it is bought by somebody who will not give it the life it should have or does not breed it? Should an animal who is here, be made to suffer to MAYBE keep another tortoise from suffering the same fate? D) Where did your tortoise come from? If it is CB, were it's parents WC? So look your little well loved tortoise in the eyes and tell him he should never have been born into the lap of luxury he is living in. Think about how in the wild, even if the egg that became your tortoise had hatched, would it be alive today? Chances are no, it would not. E) If the parents of your CB, never should have been caught. That would follow that all offspring from them should be returned to their native lands too. Would you do that? F) If it were not for the WC that were the animals that first made up the tortoises whose lives and deaths have taught us the basic knowledge we have on tortoises, what would be the chances be for your own tortoise to survive?

Thank you Tyler for some of your comments (and others). It amazes me that folks see the term WC and jump to the conclusion it has been abused and will be sickly. Or they see CB and think it's all healthy and never has been treated poorly.

Just for the record, the vast majority of the tortoises I have now (plus the ones in the past who taught me to this point) have all been WC. I am not ashamed for buying WC.


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## dmmj (Sep 6, 2011)

Jacqui said:


> First off, I am glad your all staying civil to each other on this thread.


I have been taking classes.


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## terryo (Sep 6, 2011)

ascott said:


> "I" personally believe that a wild caught is a wild caught.....which means to "me", these little ones were once in the wild....someone went into the wild and collected the wild caught tortoise. It is what it is. No matter how one wants to word it. Wild caught means the tortoise/turtle had to be caught in the wild....no way around it.
> 
> I understand that there is a COMPLETELY different way in which to ship them, you have the horrid cramped disease ridden smuggling way to move the wild caught tortoise vs. the labeled humane way of boxing/shipping them. Regardless of which method the tortoise/turtle are shipped, they are and always will be wild caught, snatched from their natural and native lands. Others are snatched up out of the wild intended for human consumption.
> 
> ...



I wish I had your brain. You have a way of saying everything I want to say, but just can't get it on paper. Great post and well said.


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## ascott (Sep 6, 2011)

....Terry O, from the first time I read a post from you I harbored great respect for you. I always enjoy reading your thoughts and opinions and the way with which you deliver them. I find you to be a beautiful person and it comes through in the words you choose. Therefore, I take your kind words with humble gratitude, thank you...


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## terryo (Sep 6, 2011)

Thank you for the kind words Angela.
David you always make me laugh. Thank you for being you. 
sharing a little story...probably doesn't have anything to do with anything....but...my Dad always had a way of making me think about things and the things he told me left such an impression on me when I was a child, that I could never forget them. When I was a little girl, and I'm going back 50 years, my Dad had a friend in Manhattan that had a pet store. Sometimes he would take me there and we'd go into a back room where there were all kinds of animals that came off a ship. I was allowed to sit on a chair and hold a baby chimp that wasn't picked up yet, or play with big tortoises. I remember there were beautiful birds there too. My Dad raised canneries and bought his supplies there. Once on the way home, sitting in the subway, I saw my Dad cry and when I asked him what was the matter he told me he was sad for all those animals that were so scared and didn't know where they were or what was going to happen to them. They reminded him of when he was a little boy and was sent all alone to America on a ship. I know he was anthropomorphizing, but he did that a lot. (I think that's the word) Anyway, it's just a fond memory I thought I'd share.


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## Baoh (Sep 6, 2011)

natty01 said:


> the man said they come here as babies and go to a dealer who raises them until they are bigger and ready to be sold on to homes.



What you were told is a lie.


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## ascott (Sep 6, 2011)

Perfect description shared.....


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## Neltharion (Sep 6, 2011)

Jacqui said:


> Just for the record, the vast majority of the tortoises I have now (plus the ones in the past who taught me to this point) have all been WC. I am not ashamed for buying WC.



Jacqui, I share your thoughts and agree with the points that you made. 

A couple of other things come to mind for me that become factors in buying wild caught over captive bred. In some situations, buying a wild caught is more affordable than a captive bred (Russians and Greeks come to mind). I see wild caught Russians as low as $50 and wild caught Greeks as lot as $75. Captive bred specimens generally start at $100 and go up from there. If prices on captive bred fell below the prices of wild caught, you'd see some decrease in the demand on wild caught.

If I'm buying one just to raise as a pet, I'd probably fork out the extra money to raise a hatchling. But for people wishing to breed, it makes sense to buy a less expensive group of animals that will be ready to breed in a year or two as opposed to a more expensive group of animals that will be ready to breed in maybe five to six years. Also with a wild caught group, you'll get diverse genetics. Buying a captive bred group of hatchlings, means having to buy from multiple sources if you want diverse genetics. Buying one specimen from one source and paying shipping for a single tort, makes it expensive. Imagine buying six to eight torts and having to quarantine each separately for 30+ days in their own set ups, and then you keep your fingers crossed that you get a decent ratio of males to females.

Also, take into consideration habitat encroachment and collection for food. Between a group of torts collected for food and a group for the pet trade, I like the chances of the group collected for the pet trade a lot more than the group that was collected for food. As the human population continues to grow, and we continue to expand across the world. We are decimating the natural habitats of many animals. An unfortunate side effect of this expansion is that some species will eventually only exist in captivity.

My group of Hermanns are wild caughts. They originally came in from an exporter in Strumica, Macedonia. My group of Russians are also wild caughts. They originally came in from an exporter in Uzbekistan.


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## Cherbear (Sep 7, 2011)

I just recieved a wc tort from tortoise supply this past Friday, and I'm very happy with him. Came out of the box eating and active. I hate to say this, but with me one of the advantages of wc is that the tortoises usually have nice smooth shells. Not that cb don't. Just my observation.


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## GBtortoises (Sep 7, 2011)

Whenever possible, I prefer to buy captive born tortoises. Or long term wild caught tortoises from individuals and reputable businesses. Unfortunately, some businesses out there make claims that they have "long term" (wild caught) tortoises that in actuality "just got off the boat". Some of them seem to think that two weeks is long term! Unfortunately, due to demand, there is still a thriving market for wild caught tortoises of some species. Not so much in the tortoise hobby as in the pet shop arena where Russian tortoises and a few others have become the staple. Russians have become the disposable pets of this era, like Green Iguanas were before them and Red-Ear Sliders were before that. It would be great to be able to think that human thought has evolved somewhat since the disposable Red-Ears of the 70's but I don't think we have. "We" meaning the general population. Most of the people that are reading this know what's going on in the world of reptiles to some degree, but the general population doesn't and probably doesn't much care either. 

I am not against limited numbers of wild caught tortoises being captured and imported if it's done sensibly, responsibly and without detriment to the wild populations. After all, without X amount of wild caught animals as "seeds" you aren't going to get captive born offspring. But by removing whole generations of animals from the wild for our own amusement I believe we also have a responsibility to strive for a point in time when _no_ wild caught animals will be needed to supply the demand because there will be enough captive born animals available to do so. Until there are no longer inexpensive and easily obtainable wild caught animals available few people are going to be concerned.

On Tyler Stewart-I don't think anyone else that I know in his position is more honest and upfront about their animals and their well being. He offers nothing but strong, healthy animals and takes exceptional care of them. I am certain that his wild caught tortoises are the best of the best. People that offer this level of concern and quality are the ones that should be supported.


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## goldie (Sep 7, 2011)

Cherbear said:


> I just recieved a wc tort from tortoise supply this past Friday, and I'm very happy with him. Came out of the box eating and active. I hate to say this, but with me one of the advantages of wc is that the tortoises usually have nice smooth shells. Not that cb don't. Just my observation.



Hi I wanted to know if you are keeping it outdoors? I need ideas for the fall and winter(hide that is weather/pred proof) and if inside how is it doing?



GBtortoises said:


> Whenever possible, I prefer to buy captive born tortoises. Or long term wild caught tortoises from individuals and reputable businesses. Unfortunately, some businesses out there make claims that they have "long term" (wild caught) tortoises that in actuality "just got off the boat". Some of them seem to think that two weeks is long term! Unfortunately, due to demand, there is still a thriving market for wild caught tortoises of some species. Not so much in the tortoise hobby as in the pet shop arena where Russian tortoises and a few others have become the staple. Russians have become the disposable pets of this era, like Green Iguanas were before them and Red-Ear Sliders were before that. It would be great to be able to think that human thought has evolved somewhat since the disposable Red-Ears of the 70's but I don't think we have. "We" meaning the general population. Most of the people that are reading this know what's going on in the world of reptiles to some degree, but the general population doesn't and probably doesn't much care either.
> 
> I am not against limited numbers of wild caught tortoises being captured and imported if it's done sensibly, responsibly and without detriment to the wild populations. After all, without X amount of wild caught animals as "seeds" you aren't going to get captive born offspring. But by removing whole generations of animals from the wild for our own amusement I believe we also have a responsibility to strive for a point in time when _no_ wild caught animals will be needed to supply the demand because there will be enough captive born animals available to do so. Until there are no longer inexpensive and easily obtainable wild caught animals available few people are going to be concerned.
> 
> On Tyler Stewart-I don't think anyone else that I know in his position is more honest and upfront about their animals and their well being. He offers nothing but strong, healthy animals and takes exceptional care of them. I am certain that his wild caught tortoises are the best of the best. People that offer this level of concern and quality are the ones that should be supported.



Exactly


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## Cherbear (Sep 7, 2011)

Goldie

It's been unseasonably cool here the last few days so I've been keeping all the torts in. But yes, I keep them outside weather permitting. In the fall and winter, they come in. I live in Ohio.


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