# Do tortoises HAVE to go outside?



## jesusrobotmonkey (May 22, 2016)

Hi guys,

I'm considering getting a tortoise in the future but I don't have a garden or any outside space. Is it possible to keep a tortoise solely inside? Or will I have to wait until I live somewhere where the tortoise can roam outside?

Thanks!


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## Rue (May 22, 2016)

Yes. You can keep a small species inside...but you will need to have adequate space. 4X8' is the minimum recommendation for an adult.

That's a significant chunk of real estate if you live in a small apartment. But...if you plan for it I don't see why you can't come up with something doable.

Don't forget you will need proper lighting...that will impose some limitations on how you can arrange things too.


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## lisa127 (May 22, 2016)

It can be done. I have a redfoot tortoise and live in a cooler area. He has to be housed indoors for 9 to 10 months of the year unfortunately.


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## Jacqui (May 22, 2016)

Can it be done, yes. Should it? That is open to debate.


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## wellington (May 22, 2016)

And on that debate, I side with, they should be able to go outside when weather is warm. If you can't provide a little outdoor time, get something else. Would you want to be caged inside all the time?


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## phebe121 (May 22, 2016)

The do need natural sunlight. So if on nice days you can take him to a park you know that doesn't put chemicals on the grass get a portable play pen .


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## JoesMum (May 22, 2016)

phebe121 said:


> The do need natural sunlight. So if on nice days you can take him to a park you know that doesn't put chemicals on the grass get a portable play pen .


And that is advice we don't generally give on here. 

Many torts do not handle change well and don't travel well. 

Allowing them outside time on public land puts them at greater risk of picking up worms. You can never guarantee what has been tipped on the grass even if the park authority doesn't use pesticides or herbicides generally - it's public land; anyone could have done anything at any time. 

I would not recommend this, even with a "playpen"

Torts need UVB. 
It's free from the sun and otherwise you use lamps. 

Torts need space. 
While the minimum for an adult is said to be 4' x 8' - I have bitter experience of having to contain my Greek to an enclosure that size when he was recovering from illness - it was FAR too small for him. 

So while getting a tort outdoors isn't essential, you are likely to come to a point where indoors just isn't big enough. If you're not likely to be able to provide the 8' x 4' minimum don't even think about it. 

Please read our Beginner Mistakes thread which will help you to make your decision 
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/


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## Gillian M (May 23, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> And that is advice we don't generally give on here.
> 
> Many torts do not handle change well and don't travel well.
> 
> ...


How small was the enclosure?


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## DPtortiose (May 25, 2016)

It's interesting to see it's considered a debate on this forum. I honestely don't know a tortoise keeper here who would ever suggest keeping these animals indoors or in such a small enclosure. You have to be able to keep tortoise outside in a much larger enclosure or don't buy a tortoise is the general advice here.


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## Yvonne G (May 25, 2016)

DPtortiose said:


> It's interesting to see it's considered a debate on this forum. I honestely don't know a tortoise keeper here who would ever suggest keeping these animals indoors or in such a small enclosure. You have to be able to keep tortoise outside in a much larger enclosure or don't buy a tortoise is the general advice here.



I feel the same way, DP. Where is "here"?

I believe that tortoises are wild animals. They haven't gone through years and years of human intervention to make them a domesticated animal. And as a wild animal, they belong outside. Tortoises get stressed when confined indoors. Are there exceptions to this rule? Heck yeah. We read about "pet" tortoises everyday here on the Forum. But the majority of tortoises are still wild animals, not pets, and should live outside.


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## Tom (May 25, 2016)

jesusrobotmonkey said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm considering getting a tortoise in the future but I don't have a garden or any outside space. Is it possible to keep a tortoise solely inside? Or will I have to wait until I live somewhere where the tortoise can roam outside?
> 
> Thanks!



I agree with all the other posters here. Can it be done? Yes. Absolutely. It has been done before and with all the heating and lighting options available nowadays, its easier than ever.

Should it be done? Hmmm… Mixed feelings on that one. Done right, an indoor only tortoise could have a much better life than some of the outdoor ones I've seen. On the other hand I sure enjoy watching my tortoise marching around their large outdoor enclosures and interacting with their environments.

If someone is willing to invest the time, money and effort needed to house a tortoise inside all the time, I am not opposed to the idea. A case could be made that, with the proper set up, they are safer and better off inside under controlled conditions.


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## DPtortiose (May 25, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> I feel the same way, DP. Where is "here"?
> 
> I believe that tortoises are wild animals. They haven't gone through years and years of human intervention to make them a domesticated animal. And as a wild animal, they belong outside. Tortoises get stressed when confined indoors. Are there exceptions to this rule? Heck yeah. We read about "pet" tortoises everyday here on the Forum. But the majority of tortoises are still wild animals, not pets, and should live outside.



The Netherlands, there are of course people who keep tortoise in indoors (and some successfully as well) but the advice that was given to me when I started with tortoise was to keep them outside or don't keep them at all.

Testudo hermanni and other Mediterranean species are probably the most kept tortoise here because they are the most adapt to our climate. They are also rather cheap (about 40 to 70 euro) depending on their subspecies with T. (h.) hermanni being the most expansive.

Our climate is a pain for keeping anything else though, sulcata's and redfoot’s can only be kept outside seasonally. So they do have to be kept inside for a larger part of the year. So it's generally advised to not keep these species, unless you have an extreme amount of indoor space.

But perhaps I'm simply not looking in the right 'circles'. Though I'm still rather 'young' (mid twenty's) I tend to do more research and interview on dedicated forums and I'm a member of our national terrarium organization. This means I get my info from the 'older generation' that see our hobby as you see it; A slice of nature in their home to learn from and educate people about. The newer 'mainstream' generation of keepers that started after the increased commercialization of the hobby is often more active on facebook tend to see them as pets. I don't tend to comment or look on those kind of media, so I'm not sure what the general husbandry standards they advocate. (I know I'm making a gross generalizations and perhaps label people incorrectly, but I this is simply what I've observed over the last couple of years.)


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## DutchieAmanda (May 25, 2016)

Hi, a fellow Dutchie!
I do keep a redfoot in The Netherlands, currently planning on a large indoor enclosure and an outside enclosure with greenhouse for the summer. It can be done bit it takes money and space.

However, I'm not as enthusiastic as you about tort conditions in The Netherlands. Take a look at marktplaats (our Dutch craigslist) and you will see many many big torts in small dry enclosure for sale, even sulcata's in small glass terraria with sand and together with a Greek or Russian. It often makes me sad... :'(


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## DPtortiose (May 25, 2016)

DutchieAmanda said:


> Hi, a fellow Dutchie!
> I do keep a redfoot in The Netherlands, currently planning on a large indoor enclosure and an outside enclosure with greenhouse for the summer. It can be done bit it takes money and space.
> 
> However, I'm not as enthusiastic as you about tort conditions in The Netherlands. Take a look at marktplaats (our Dutch craigslist) and you will see many many big torts in small dry enclosure for sale, even sulcata's in small glass terraria with sand and together with a Greek or Russian. It often makes me sad... :'(



I agree, and it's not just on marktplaats (craiglist). They recently rebuild the zoo in Emmen and even they keep sulcata's in a way that wouldn't be recommended by most if any serious sulcata keeper on this forum. But I've yet need to meet a breeder who advices anything other than a spacious outdoor enclosure, all the articles published by Lacerta states that an spacious outdoor enclosure is a must. The enclosures I've seen on the largest dedicated Dutch reptile forums are pretty much only outdoor enclosures and I haven't read anything recommend anything else for the last 3 years or so. I'm totally not denying there is still a lot of mistreated animals out there, but I'm not seeing the same discussion as the one in this thread. You keep them outside in a spacious enclosure or not at all. 

But like I stated perhaps I'm too much involved in the 'wrong' circles or simply forgetting/blocking out things. Is your experience about this discussion with the Dutch reptiles community different?


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## Kori5 (May 26, 2016)

I feel they need to spend at least a couple of months a year in the real sun. They can be kept indoors all the time but I don't think it is a moral thing to do as they act differently indoors and outdoors. I see my little boy smile when he is out . No matter how big table you make them, how expensive your lights are or how many interesting things you put inside, nothing beats the sun. So yes, I feel they need to go outside, even for a few hours a day. That's just my opinion of course, I'm not saying it is the law. But I do know breeders who won't sell you an animal unless you have some outdoor space.


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## Gillian M (May 26, 2016)

I totally agree with Kori5 here. Torts are used to live in the wild where they roam around as they wish *without* "red lights/borders/boundaries" so as to speak.


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## DutchieAmanda (May 26, 2016)

Just a question here: do we feel the same about other reptiles? Should snakes, agamas, gecko's etc also live outside for a part of the year at least?


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## Kori5 (May 26, 2016)

Yes. Nothing should be locked up inside all the time.


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## JoesMum (May 26, 2016)

DutchieAmanda said:


> Just a question here: do we feel the same about other reptiles? Should snakes, agamas, gecko's etc also live outside for a part of the year at least?


Difficult question as it so depends on the reptile and your climate. If you had the right climate, yes I would ideally want them to get out too. 

Many of those don't have the need to walk the huge distances that torts do though.


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## Gillian M (May 27, 2016)

Kori5 said:


> Yes. Nothing should be locked up inside all the time.


So very true.


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## Cowboy_Ken (May 27, 2016)

jesusrobotmonkey said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm considering getting a tortoise in the future but I don't have a garden or any outside space. Is it possible to keep a tortoise solely inside?


 Were I you, with a reptile motivation,I'd start with a snake if possible. Not a Python or boa, but a good looking snake you could care for in a smaller flat. As time moves on and you do to, then reassess your desire to move on to a tortoise commitment. Or a gecko or a uromastiic.


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## DPtortiose (May 27, 2016)

DutchieAmanda said:


> Just a question here: do we feel the same about other reptiles? Should snakes, agamas, gecko's etc also live outside for a part of the year at least?



If it's at all possible, there are several European and North American reptiles that do very well in our climate. There keepers that keep _Thamnophis _species (Garter snakes) outside year round. But there are also other snakes that do well outside, like with some members from the _Natrix _and _Nerodia _genus. You can read more about this here.

There is also a large selection of lizards that do very well here outdoors with an heated shelter to retreat to. _Timon lepidus_ (Eyed lizard), _Lacerta viridis_, _Lacerta bilineata_ and _Podarcis sicula_ are probably the most popular 'outdoor' lizards. But there are people who keep some 'unorthodox' species outside as well. Some members of the _Eremias_ genus are suitable and _Salvator merianae_ (Argentine black and white tegu) tend do rather well as well. 

More tropical species or desert species are a bit more trickier. We simply don't have the humidity or temperature for these species to thrive for a good number of days. But it's possible, I know someone who keeps Uromastyc outside for a number of days a year and Iguana keepers sometimes have outdoor trees or cages for their animals.


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## enchilada (May 31, 2016)

if you dont have yard, just go to a park on sunny warm afternoon and let it roam. if you have more than one, round it up with blocks


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## Tom (May 31, 2016)

DutchieAmanda said:


> Just a question here: do we feel the same about other reptiles? Should snakes, agamas, gecko's etc also live outside for a part of the year at least?



If an animals needs are being met, I don't have a problem with it being indoors or out. So yes, I feel the same about other reptiles.

The two main differences are:
1. Tortoises need to roam large distances for their health. Locomotion assists with digestion. Iguanas and ball pythons don't.
2. Tortoises are one of the reptile species that _need_ UV. Sunshine is the easiest, cheapest and best way to provide this. Beardies and green iguanas need it too. Blue tongues skinks and all the snakes do not need UV to live and remain healthy, so keeping them inside full time doesn't present the same challenges.


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## Tom (May 31, 2016)

Kori5 said:


> I feel they need to spend at least a couple of months a year in the real sun. They can be kept indoors all the time but I don't think it is a moral thing to do as they act differently indoors and outdoors. I see my little boy smile when he is out . No matter how big table you make them, how expensive your lights are or how many interesting things you put inside, nothing beats the sun. So yes, I feel they need to go outside, even for a few hours a day. That's just my opinion of course, I'm not saying it is the law. But I do know breeders who won't sell you an animal unless you have some outdoor space.



This post is too full of emotion, anthropomorphism and baseless assertions to be ignored. I tried.

The opening sentence tells the story. "I feel…" Feelings don't keep a tortoise healthy. Meeting its biological and physiological needs does.

Why two months of outside time. Why is two months of outside time moral in your eyes, but one and a half months isn't. Is 3 months even more moral? What if I made the case that tortoises should live outside full time, all year long, like mine do, and that anyone who lives in a climate that prevents this is immoral for keeping tortoises because that's how I "feel"? Would you agree with my feelings?

Moral? There is absolutely nothing immoral about keeping a tortoise, or any other animal, indoors full time if all of its needs are being met and it is treated humanely.

Tortoises can't smile. They don't have lips. (I know, you didn't mean this literally, but do me a favor and look up "anthropomorphism" please. My apologies if you already understand this term.)

I prefer to house adult tortoises outside full time with the right set up, but there are a lot of outdoor housed tortoises that really do not have a good life. All the sulcatas living in AZ with no heat in winter. All the DTs here in CA that are tossed into a backyard and left to survive on their own in an above ground, very artificial and foreign environment… or not survive as is often the case. Or all the babies that are kept outside full time because people say things like: "Outdoors is better." Well in some cases, it isn't.

Attempting to shame people who keep tortoises properly, but mostly indoors, on the basis of morality or "feelings" is wrong.

Often I am accused of being closed minded and thinking that _my_ way of keeping tortoises is the only right way. Each time these accusations are leveled I say they are false. This post proves it. There are many ways to keep a tortoise properly and meet their needs. For someone in an unsuitable climate, indoors may be a better option. If a person can meet all of their tortoise's needs, why would you want to shame or discourage them? Everyone's climate creates challenges to over come. Heck, even in an animals natural range there are challenges to overcome presented by our artificial captive environments. The aforementioned desert tortoises being a prime example.


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## Tom (May 31, 2016)

enchilada said:


> if you dont have yard, just go to a park on sunny warm afternoon and let it roam. if you have more than one, round it up with blocks



How does a person know what lawn chemicals or pesticides have been sprayed in that park? How does one prevent their tortoise from eating unseen dangerous objects or toxic weeds when their tortoise is roaming at a park?

I don't think this is good advice.


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## Kori5 (May 31, 2016)

Tom said:


> This post is too full of emotion, anthropomorphism and baseless assertions to be ignored. I tried.
> 
> The opening sentence tells the story. "I feel…" Feelings don't keep a tortoise healthy. Meeting its biological and physiological needs does.
> 
> ...


Wow Tom, I wouldn't expect such a post from you! You were one of my favorite members here. Thank you very much, however I do know what antropomorfism means, even tho English isn't my mothers tongue. What were you saying again about me trying to shame others? That was not my intention and people who know me here know it. Yours, perhaps . However, I stay beside my opinions as that's what they are- just opinios as I stated in my previous post. This topic is one of those were there isn't right or wrong, it summes to your feelings and moral. Yes, moral. I don't feel it's moral to keep these animals inside all the time and I wouldn't do it. That doesn't mean someone else shouldn't. You mentioned your animals live outside all year long. That's great! Well I live in my animals natural range, their climate so I think it's ok if he gets those months of sunshine and then spends the winter inside or hibernating. When I said 'He smiles', I meant how happier he looked outside. Wait happy? That's a human emotion again. Silly me.


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## Kori5 (Jun 1, 2016)

I didn't mean to deter anyone from getting a tortoise, even if they don't have an outdoor space and I apologise to everyone who read my previous post and felt it was my plan. It is just my opinion on the aspect of keeping these animals and this is a forum where people share their.


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## jaizei (Jun 1, 2016)

Kori5 said:


> Wow Tom, I wouldn't expect such a post from you! You were one of my favorite members here. Thank you very much, however I do know what antropomorfism means, even tho English isn't my mothers tongue. What were you saying again about me trying to shame others? That was not my intention and people who know me here know it. Yours, perhaps . However, I stay beside my opinions as that's what they are- just opinios as I stated in my previous post. This topic is one of those were there isn't right or wrong, it summes to your feelings and moral. Yes, moral. I don't feel it's moral to keep these animals inside all the time and I wouldn't do it. That doesn't mean someone else shouldn't. You mentioned your animals live outside all year long. That's great! Well I live in my animals natural range, their climate so I think it's ok if he gets those months of sunshine and then spends the winter inside or hibernating. When I said 'He smiles', I meant how happier he looked outside. Wait happy? That's a human emotion again. Silly me.



I think it means that you've "arrived". Welcome to the forum.


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## Cindy Rademaekers (Jun 1, 2016)

Kori, not sure why your post got ripped into like that. I did not take away from it that you were trying to shame anyone or deter anyone. To me you were simply stating that you feel it is important for a tortoises mental and physical wellbeing to get some outside time. You also were clear that it was your opinion. I think the word "moral" may have triggered a strong reaction.


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## Gillian M (Jun 1, 2016)

enchilada said:


> if you dont have yard, just go to a park on sunny warm afternoon and let it roam. if you have more than one, round it up with blocks


That's exactly what I do with Oli.


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## Kori5 (Jun 1, 2016)

Cindy Rademaekers said:


> Kori, not sure why your post got ripped into like that. I did not take away from it that you were trying to shame anyone or deter anyone. To me you were simply stating that you feel it is important for a tortoises mental and physical wellbeing to get some outside time. You also were clear that it was your opinion. I think the word "moral" may have triggered a strong reaction.


Thank you for your understanding. Maybe my choice of words wasn't the best. But I will tell you one thing. Here on this forum (which is a great forum ) older and more experienced members don't allow you to have your opinion.


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## Tom (Jun 1, 2016)

Kori5 said:


> But I will tell you one thing. Here on this forum (which is a great forum ) older and more experienced members don't allow you to have your opinion.



That is not true at all. Opinions that are based on experience, facts, or some sort of tangible truth, are welcome. Many people do things differently than I do. Their opinions are based on things they've learned along the way and what has worked for them. This is fine, I might argue that one way or another is better for a variety of reasons, but I can back up my assertions with fact and experience. If they can back up their assertions, then we can let it lie. But if someone comes on to the forum with their first tortoise and wants to assert, that rabbit pellets are the best substrate for a baby sulcata because they feel that way, or because its more moral to use alfalfa pellets than ground coconut husk, I am going to say something, because their words are detrimental to baby tortoises.

The issue I have with your post, not with you, is that your assertions are based on warm fuzzy feelings and they cannot be backed up with facts, experience or truth. There are lots of people who keep tortoises indoors full time, and those tortoises are healthy, reproducing, eating the right foods, and have a great life. Neither you nor I wish to keep our own tortoises that way, but to publicly say that it is not moral, or that a tortoise can't be "happy" living indoors is simply not true, and there are many real world examples to prove it.

This is not a personal attack. This is simply pointing out that emotional feelings are not what good tortoise advice should be based on. I don't want a well to do person in Alaska, or some parts of Europe, or in the middle of the Sahara Desert who wants to breed a rare tortoise species and do some really good work for a species, to be discouraged by words like the ones used in your post. If they can make a better environment indoors for their chosen species than what their climate or situation will allow outdoors, I wish to encourage them, not make them question the morality of the situation.

Mind you, I will be the first person to tell someone with limited funds, living in a 3rd floor apartment in Minnesota with no yard, that a sulcata is not the right species for them, but its not just because of their weather. My point is: Let's discuss facts and experience here when offering advice on what is best for tortoises, not feelings.


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## Cindy Rademaekers (Jun 1, 2016)

Honestly I think your going a bit overboard here. She admitted she may have used the wrong words. English isn't her first language. Moral/immoral is a pretty strong word and makes one think what a person is doing is evil. I don't believe that is what she meant. She is only sharing her personal experience that her tortoise seems to enjoy being outside and she feels that is important to their overall well being.


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## Kori5 (Jun 1, 2016)

Tom said:


> That is not true at all. Opinions that are based on experience, facts, or some sort of tangible truth, are welcome. Many people do things differently than I do. Their opinions are based on things they've learned along the way and what has worked for them. This is fine, I might argue that one way or another is better for a variety of reasons, but I can back up my assertions with fact and experience. If they can back up their assertions, then we can let it lie. But if someone comes on to the forum with their first tortoise and wants to assert, that rabbit pellets are the best substrate for a baby sulcata because they feel that way, or because its more moral to use alfalfa pellets than ground coconut husk, I am going to say something, because their words are detrimental to baby tortoises.
> 
> The issue I have with your post, not with you, is that your assertions are based on warm fuzzy feelings and they cannot be backed up with facts, experience or truth. There are lots of people who keep tortoises indoors full time, and those tortoises are healthy, reproducing, eating the right foods, and have a great life. Neither you nor I wish to keep our own tortoises that way, but to publicly say that it is not moral, or that a tortoise can't be "happy" living indoors is simply not true, and there are many real world examples to prove it.
> 
> ...


You know it is true and I'm not the only one who feels that way. But people are afraid to speak their mind because someone of the experienced group will attack them and make their opinion seem worthless. I'm not one of those people and I think forums are made for sharing experiences. And how do you know what I base my opinion on? Kori has been with my boyfriends family for 25 years! And I live in their natural habitat, our neighbours have tortoises and people here are very fond and protective over them. Sure they can live indoors, eat well, mate etc. But I yet have to meet a tortoise who reached an age of let me see...50 years and lived all her life indoors. Neighbours Hermanni just had her 70th birthday and guess what, she lives outside, in our beautiful Mediterranean air, eats her weeds and is healthy as a horse. So, no my opinions are not just feeling based. And you say it is not a personal attack. Then why haven't you quoted one of the post before mine...Yvonnes who said they are wild animals and should live outside. Because she is, in your eyes, an experienced keeper and her opinion is relevant. I'm not and even If we share the same thoughts it is all that matters.


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## Gillian M (Jun 1, 2016)

Kori5 said:


> Thank you for your understanding. Maybe my choice of words wasn't the best. But I will tell you one thing. Here on this forum (which is a great forum ) older and more experienced members don't allow you to have your opinion.


SO *VERY* true.  Some members think that their experience/knowledge gives them the green light to be harsh/impolite I regret to have to say this.


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## Gillian M (Jun 1, 2016)

Cindy Rademaekers said:


> Honestly I think your going a bit overboard here. She admitted she may have used the wrong words. English isn't her first language. Moral/immoral is a pretty strong word and makes one think what a person is doing is evil. I don't believe that is what she meant. She is only sharing her personal experience that her tortoise seems to enjoy being outside and she feels that is important to their overall well being.


I experienced something similar only because I once said: "I do not believe that apartments are not the appropriate place for animals/pets." Too bad that some members do not know how to say things/give advice in a more *POLITE*/*DIPLOMATIC* manner. 

I for one am 100000% (if that makes sense) that Kori did *NOT* mean anything bad.


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## MPRC (Jun 1, 2016)

I think we are getting hung up on the details here. 

Can you make a suitable habitat for a tortoise to thrive in indoors? Yes.

Does this mean that your regular Joe who wants a tortoise because it's "cool" is going to have the time, space and knowledge to do so? No. 

I think we may be better off saying something to the tune of, "Yes, if proper provisions are made including a massive amount of space, proper heat, lighting and humidity are provided a tortoise CAN live out it's life indoors."

The sad truth is that there are tortoises out there who will live shortened unhappy (yes, I *anthropomorphized*) lives in glass fish tanks on rabbit pellets in apartment buildings. 

If you can safely keep a tortoise outside I see no reason not to. If you live somewhere where you can't have an outdoor enclosure but you have space and dedication, by all means it CAN thrive indoors.


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## Tom (Jun 1, 2016)

Kori5 said:


> You know it is true and I'm not the only one who feels that way.



No. I've already said that I do not think it is true at all. I don't doubt that others feel this way sometimes.



Kori5 said:


> But people are afraid to speak their mind because someone of the experienced group will attack them and make their opinion seem worthless.



I don't know if people should be "afraid", but they should definitely be considering what they say. I certainly have to. I've been attacked on this forum many times for the things I've said. Some former members made it their hobby to attempt to ridicule me.

We do not "attack " people here. Its not allowed. You were not attacked. You were disagreed with, and the reasons why were elaborated and explained in detail. A disagreement, and refuting baseless opinions is not an attack. You were called no names, and your character was not questioned. I don't dislike you and I usually enjoy reading your posts. Your emotion based statements were questioned and that is all.



Kori5 said:


> I'm not one of those people and I think forums are made for sharing experiences.



I agree. Share experiences. Share an experience that adds validity to your statements about the morality of housing a tortoise indoors. Share an experience where you tried to keep a tortoise indoors full time and it failed. Share why it failed. Let others learn from your mistakes.

Or… do you not have any experience in this matter of housing a tortoise indoors full time?



Kori5 said:


> And how do you know what I base my opinion on?



I don't. I only know what you've typed in.



Kori5 said:


> And you say it is not a personal attack. Then why haven't you quoted one of the post before mine...Yvonnes who said they are wild animals and should live outside. Because she is, in your eyes, an experienced keeper and her opinion is relevant. I'm not and even If we share the same thoughts it is all that matters.



Your speculation is incorrect.

I didn't argue with Yvonne because she stated her opinions, backed it up with factual reasons why she feels that way, and she didn't call into question someone's morality for thinking or doing otherwise. There was nothing to argue. She also didn't speculate about the emotional state of someone else's animals.

And you are correct that her experience level is a factor. I know what she thinks and what she does with her tortoises from years of personal interaction and conversation with her. I know she has decades of practical experience behind what she says, and she also has the input of many other people in her life with decades of practical experience. I will still not hesitate to disagree with her, and she will not hesitate to disagree with me. Neither of us feels attacked when this happens.


This is just tortoise conversation. You made statements that I disagree with. I refuted them. No attack. No dislike. Nothing personal.


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## Kori5 (Jun 1, 2016)

Tom said:


> No. I've already said that I do not think it is true at all. I don't doubt that others feel this way sometimes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And again you took parts of my post which you like to point out and the important ones left behind. I've explained on what I base my opinion but you haven't answered my question. Do you know anyone who kept his/their tortoises indoor indoors all the time and the animal reached an significant age of 50 years or more? I don't know. I know people who keep them indoors/outdoors and those are healthy animals. Also, you said I haven't explained my first post, it was emotional, baseless etc. Well so was Jacqui's and wellington's and your treatment was different. They weren't called up for being emotional were they? That's what bothers me, people should show respect to all members, not only the elderly ones. And the last thing. How come you are the only one who took my post as a message :" Don't get a tortoise if you don't have an outdoor space". I said it is my opinion not the right one. What is right and moral? If it is not against the law, what you feel is right and moral.


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## Tom (Jun 1, 2016)

I don't personally know anyone that has had a tortoise for 50 years in any environment.

I'm not spending any more time on this. I've explained myself repeatedly. If you wish to be offended, that is your prerogative. No offense was intended.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jun 1, 2016)

I see a few answers way off from your original Question. "Do tortoises have to go outside?" NO, in fact they don't. However a full life for the tortoise, meaning many things, is soooooo much easier outside than inside IF (a really huge ginormous if) you are in an appropriate climate for them in the first place. If you are not in an appropriate climate for them, the inside<->outside thing can be as stressful as poor conditions in either one or the other.

Other concerns are the species involved and how much time and resources you can dedicate to an all the time indoor animal.

One reason sulcata are so popular in the desert southwest is that they are super very low maintenance once set up outside with a suitable enclosure.

But if you had a huge climate controlled barn, and wanted you could have a sulcata inside and be ethical about it.

Quality of life can be had as well indoors as outdoors, quality being a scale of good to bad as well. Outdoors in a appropriate climate, high quality, outdoors in a poor climate bad quality. Same with indoors, only now climate is 100% your responsibility. It can be much work to accomplish. It also gives you much control and therefore you can maintain a more stable optimal environment year round.


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## WithLisa (Jun 1, 2016)

Kori5 said:


> I feel they need to spend at least a couple of months a year in the real sun. They can be kept indoors all the time but I don't think it is a moral thing to do as they act differently indoors and outdoors. I see my little boy smile when he is out . No matter how big table you make them, how expensive your lights are or how many interesting things you put inside, nothing beats the sun. So yes, I feel they need to go outside, even for a few hours a day. That's just my opinion of course, I'm not saying it is the law. But I do know breeders who won't sell you an animal unless you have some outdoor space.


I had the same experience, their behaviour is different. I can't say they smile because it's difficult to interpret emotions in tortoises  but they are more active and that seems like a positive thing to me.

Of course any living creature can be kept indoors as long as their basic needs are met. Even humans can lead a healthy life and reproduce in a windowless basement, but it is a well known fact that sunlight has great influence on us, it makes us happy.
The effect - more active and outgoing behaviour - is similar in humans and tortoises, that's why I assume that tortoises also in a way feel better outside, no matter if they can feel happy/unhappy like a human.

Is it immoral to keep a tortoise indoors? Who knows, since they can hardly show any feelings. But I myself surely don't want to keep my pets indoors, if I wouldn't live in a suitable climate or had no garden, I would have to go without tortoises.
Don't do unto others what you would not have done unto you, even if that's anthropomorphism. 

But I understand that the American point of view about animal rights is different from (parts of) Europe.


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## Cindy Rademaekers (Jun 1, 2016)

WithLisa said:


> Is it immoral to keep a tortoise indoors? Who knows, since they can hardly show any feelings. But I myself surely don't want to keep my pets indoors, if I wouldn't live in a suitable climate or had no garden, I would have to go without tortoises.
> Don't do unto others what you would not have done unto you, even if that's anthropomorphism.
> 
> But I understand that the American point of view about animal rights is different from (parts of) Europe.



There are many, many, many of us in America that think as you do. But it's a big country with lots of people so there are a lot of uncaring people too. Unfortunately.


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## Tom (Jun 1, 2016)

Cindy Rademaekers said:


> There are many, many, many of us in America that think as you do. But it's a big country with lots of people so there are a lot of uncaring people too. Unfortunately.



Whoa whoa whoa…

If we are not an animal rightist we don't care about animals? Do you want to clarify that statement?


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## WithLisa (Jun 1, 2016)

Tom said:


> Whoa whoa whoa…
> 
> If we are not an animal rightist we don't care about animals? Do you want to clarify that statement?


Does one have to be an "animal rightist" to believe in animal rights?

For example in my opinion a bird should have the right to fly. In Austria it's required by law to keep at least two budgies in a rather big cage and give them flying time every day. If you would ask random Austrians for their opinion, most would say that's a good and reasonable law.
If you would ask random Americans I assume most would say they should have the right to keep budgies however they want (or am I just biased?).
Cultural differences.


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## mark1 (Jun 1, 2016)

Kori5 said:


> But I yet have to meet a tortoise who reached an age of let me see...50 years and lived all her life indoors. Neighbours Hermanni just had her 70th birthday and guess what, she lives outside, in our beautiful Mediterranean air, eats her weeds and is healthy as a horse. .


 this would be my opinion also ....... reptiles lives are so connected to the sun , their life revolves around it more so than any other animal i can think of .....as much as you may try noone can replicate a days sunlight indoors......... . just the difference in the amount of work involved , and expense , in properly keeping them indoors would make me wonder about the sustainability for 25, 50, 70yrs ....... ii would think anybody who has kept reptiles indoors and outdoors has seen the difference in behavior , the smile these folks are talking about ......jmo


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## Cindy Rademaekers (Jun 1, 2016)

Tom said:


> Whoa whoa whoa…
> 
> If we are not an animal rightist we don't care about animals? Do you want to clarify that statement?



Not really sure what you mean by " animal rightist". Are you talking about people like PETA? If so, I'm really not sure how you got that from my comment. ..


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## Tom (Jun 1, 2016)

Cindy Rademaekers said:


> Not really sure what you mean by " animal rightist". Are you talking about people like PETA? If so, I'm really not sure how you got that from my comment. ..



Withlisa said: "But I understand that the American point of view about animal rights is different from (parts of) Europe."


You answered: "There are many, many, many of us in America that think as you do. But it's a big country with lots of people so there are a lot of uncaring people too. Unfortunately."

She's implying that (parts of) Europe believe in the animal rights point of view. Your answer implies that some AMericans also subscribe to animal rights points of view, but the ones who don't are "uncaring".

A lot of implication there, and that is why I asked if you wanted to clarify and explain. To answer your question, yes, I mean people like PETA, and HSUS, and all the other similar organizations that want to ban pet ownership because it is "slavery", and ban eating meat because animals have equal rights to people.

Because I don't think as Withlisa does about animal rights, but I most certainly care about the_ welfare, _humane treatment and health of all animals.

Some people might not be aware that we animal lovers are under attack from people who claim to be animal lovers, but really just have an agenda of controlling other people and "freeing" all animals from human exploitation of every kind. We have pet owners on this very forum that donate money and claim to be members of these animal rights groups. I believe they do so with the good intentions of helping animals, but they don't realize they've been hoodwinked and lied to.


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## Tom (Jun 1, 2016)

WithLisa said:


> Does one have to be an "animal rightist" to believe in animal rights?



By definition, yes. If you fly airplanes, are you not an airplane pilot?


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## lisa127 (Jun 1, 2016)

Tom said:


> Withlisa said: "But I understand that the American point of view about animal rights is different from (parts of) Europe."
> 
> 
> You answered: "There are many, many, many of us in America that think as you do. But it's a big country with lots of people so there are a lot of uncaring people too. Unfortunately."
> ...


Tom is very right about PETA, HSUS, etc. Please don't support these organizations.


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## Cindy Rademaekers (Jun 1, 2016)

Believing that animals have rights and should be treated humanly doesn't automatically mean you're a crazy PETA person. That wasn't what I was talking about at all. In Europe you arent allowed to crop ears or descent your pet skunk because they feel it is unnecessary and inhumane. That is not quite the same as not wanting people to have pets at all. I was just making a general statement that there were people who love and care about animals in this country as well and there are also those who will trap a skunk or possum or squirrel and promptly drown them.


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## Tom (Jun 1, 2016)

Cindy Rademaekers said:


> Believing that animals have rights and should be treated humanly doesn't automatically mean you're a crazy PETA person. That wasn't what I was talking about at all. In Europe you arent allowed to crop ears or descent your pet skunk because they feel it is unnecessary and inhumane. That is not quite the same as not wanting people to have pets at all. I was just making a general statement that there were people who love and care about animals in this country as well and there are also those who will trap a skunk or possum or squirrel and promptly drown them.



Many people don't understand this distinction, but they need to. This is not semantics or nit picking. There is a lot at stake here.

Animal rights is one thing. Animal welfare is something totally different.

Animal rights is "crazy PETA people". I described their beliefs and goals above. Their shelters kill more dogs and cats than even the worse county run shelters. They drive beemers and Mercedes, and they live in fancy houses all paid for by the donations of the people who fall for their schemes.

What you are describing yourself as is an advocate of animal welfare. Respect them, treat them well, make sure all their needs are met, enjoy them.

I make such a big deal about this because it is these people's full time job to end our hobby and end people having any sort of pet or eating any sort of meat. We are fighting a losing battle, and its largely because they get paid to fight this battle. That is all they do. Its their job. Literally. Meanwhile, their opposition, me and you, have to go to work every day to earn a living. We just want to live our lives and enjoy our pets. Their enjoyment in life comes from ending our relationships with our pets any way they can.


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## Gillian M (Jun 2, 2016)

WithLisa said:


> Does one have to be an "animal rightist" to believe in animal rights?
> 
> For example in my opinion a bird should have the right to fly. In Austria it's required by law to keep at least two budgies in a rather big cage and give them flying time every day. If you would ask random Austrians for their opinion, most would say that's a good and reasonable law.
> If you would ask random Americans I assume most would say they should have the right to keep budgies however they want (or am I just biased?).
> Cultural differences.


Culture definitely plays a role here. Take the Arab World for example, where is little or *NO* care for animals.Only the filthy rich buy dogs to guard their villas, luxurious cars and property. In these cases, dogs are obviously not pets. Torts are considered "toys" for children, *NOT *pets, like Adam (who lives in Morocco) once said. You ought to see how *shocked* people get when they see me with Oli outside!


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## Gillian M (Jun 2, 2016)

mark1 said:


> this would be my opinion also ....... reptiles lives are so connected to the sun , their life revolves around it more so than any other animal i can think of .....as much as you may try noone can replicate a days sunlight indoors......... . just the difference in the amount of work involved , and expense , in properly keeping them indoors would make me wonder about the sustainability for 25, 50, 70yrs ....... ii would think anybody who has kept reptiles indoors and outdoors has seen the difference in behavior , the smile these folks are talking about ......jmo


Also keep in mind that they hibernate so long as it is cold. Indeed, they have to see the sun.


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## Yvonne G (Jun 2, 2016)

So far I have seen nothing that would warrant this thread being closed or any of the posters being warned. And I believe we all benefit from the back and forth that's going on here, but please stay true to the subject, "Do Tortoises HAVE to go outside?" And please remember to be polite to each other.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jun 2, 2016)

@jesusrobotmonkey what kind of tortoise are you seeking to find out about, about where do you live (not your mailing address, but the general area)? Any species can be kept indoors for it's whole life. As for 50 years, yeah many examples out there. If you are in your 30's then you can count on having the tortoise well into your 80's.

There are now three pages of debate regarding you question and you have not followed-up with any further details. Are you trolling?


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## Yvonne G (Jun 2, 2016)

You might have something there, Will. He joined 5/22, made this one thread, then left. And that was the last time he was on the forum.


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## DutchieAmanda (Jun 2, 2016)

Wow, so many responses to one simple question... 

Although not everybody agreed, I was happy about the response of @Tom. I live in The Netherlands (cold and wet most often) and keep a redfoot. I sometimes put him outside when the weather is very nice. He is indeed more active, walking around a lot. However, I interpret this as being stressed out by being in a new unknown (dry) environment. So I am really doubting whether I make him "happy" by doing this. I'm currently planning on a big inside enclosure which is big enough for an adult redfoot and looks as natural as possible. Our outside climate is definitely not natural for this South American animal.

Shouldn't I have chosen a redfoot? Or any tortoise? Maybe. But I fell in love with redfoots and try to give him the best life possible. By all the responses about tortoises are "happier" outside and shouldn't be kept inside I felt almost guilty and stopped participating in this topic. No personal attacks here, just clarifying. 

Well, I shared my opinion, responses are welcome


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## lisa127 (Jun 2, 2016)

DutchieAmanda said:


> Wow, so many responses to one simple question...
> 
> Although not everybody agreed, I was happy about the response of @Tom. I live in The Netherlands (cold and wet most often) and keep a redfoot. I sometimes put him outside when the weather is very nice. He is indeed more active, walking around a lot. However, I interpret this as being stressed out by being in a new unknown (dry) environment. So I am really doubting whether I make him "happy" by doing this. I'm currently planning on a big inside enclosure which is big enough for an adult redfoot and looks as natural as possible. Our outside climate is definitely not natural for this South American animal.
> 
> ...


I have a redfoot as well. Where I live he can only go outdoors maybe 3 months of the year, some years it might only be 2 months.


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## GingerLove (Jun 2, 2016)

I have a Russian tortoise that I keep indoors. I think it's smart, however, to let every tortoise play outside once and a while. I try to get mine outside for an hour every day. She actually became potty-trained because of it!


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## Gillian M (Jun 2, 2016)

GingerLove said:


> I have a Russian tortoise that I keep indoors. I think it's smart, however, to let every tortoise play outside once and a while. I try to get mine outside for an hour every day. She actually became potty-trained because of it!


Wow! A smart tort!


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