# Hybrids



## Raymo2477 (Jun 22, 2013)

I've bred corn snakes for a few years and what seems most important is making unique morphs that are genetically inheritable. Unfortunately to accomplish some one introduced non-corn snake DNA to make Creamsicles and Ultras. With the case of Ultra it was not found out until later that the origin of this morph was a another type of rat snake (or so it is hypothesized).

I bred Ultra into my colony before I knew true history of the morph and now I have offspring that are no longer pure. 

My question is how is hybridization with torts possible and how it's regarded with in the hobby?


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## GBtortoises (Jun 22, 2013)

See my post to your similar question in the Hermann's tortoise section.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Jun 22, 2013)

To answer the first question: it is possible quite simply because the two species in question are close-enough related to each other. Ex: a horse can never mate with a cow, but it can with a donkey.

How it is regarded in the hobby? A lot (I daresay most) tortoise hobbyists are against it, because of genetic pollution. The fear is that one day, there will be no "pure" Brazilian redfoots or Sudanese sulcatas, because no one cares and puts all their redfoots in one pen, etc etc. 

Others are indifferent about it, while some make the argument that tortoise hybrids are not common and those that produce them market them accurately.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Jun 22, 2013)

Interspecific hybridization has been debated pretty intensively here on TFO. Some folks like the look of hybrids, while others (including myself) discourage interspecific hybridization for its negative effects.


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## EricIvins (Jun 22, 2013)

There is this little thing called Taxonomy. This Taxonomy stuff is meant to be fluid, not a hard fast set of rules. What is considered a species one day, may be considered invalid the next. Or what might be considered a sub-specie, may be elevated to full specie status...

Either way, none of us here are Tortoise whisperers. Very rarely do we have site data for any Tortoises we have in private hands in captivity, so I find this whole argument to be nothing but a bunch of chest thumping either way. Who's to say that the "pure" Tortoise you own is not from an Integrade range, as A LOT are. Depending on species of course. Is that animal not "pure" now? Point blank, Tortoise hybrids are not going to be taking over the world any time soon. I have a host of other things I'm more worried about than "unpure" bloodlines. I don't frown on any making hybrids either. A Leopard/Sulcata cross may be one of the best "pet" Tortoises on the market. Who knows? I sure don't. After all, we've been doing this with captive animals for eons over. I don't see why Tortoises should be any different. Bottom line - In the coming years you will be able to find both "pure" and "hybrid" Tortoises. You'll also find that crazy Taxonomy stuff coming into play there too....It all comes down to doing your research when acquiring an animal. If I'm looking to acquire something specific, I'm not going to go on Craigslist to find it. I'll go to the sources that I can verify has what I'm looking for.


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## tortadise (Jun 22, 2013)

EricIvins said:


> There is this little thing called Taxonomy. This Taxonomy stuff is meant to be fluid, not a hard fast set of rules. What is considered a species one day, may be considered invalid the next. Or what might be considered a sub-specie, may be elevated to full specie status...
> 
> Either way, none of us here are Tortoise whisperers. Very rarely do we have site data for any Tortoises we have in private hands in captivity, so I find this whole argument to be nothing but a bunch of chest thumping either way. Who's to say that the "pure" Tortoise you own is not from an Integrade range, as A LOT are. Depending on species of course. Is that animal not "pure" now? Point blank, Tortoise hybrids are not going to be taking over the world any time soon. I have a host of other things I'm more worried about than "unpure" bloodlines. I don't frown on any making hybrids either. A Leopard/Sulcata cross may be one of the best "pet" Tortoises on the market. Who knows? I sure don't. After all, we've been doing this with captive animals for eons over. I don't see why Tortoises should be any different. Bottom line - In the coming years you will be able to find both "pure" and "hybrid" Tortoises. You'll also find that crazy Taxonomy stuff coming into play there too....It all comes down to doing your research when acquiring an animal. If I'm looking to acquire something specific, I'm not going to go on Craigslist to find it. I'll go to the sources that I can verify has what I'm looking for.




I agree here. I have many "locale" specific red foots, I keep separate and offer for sale as; Venezuelan, Guyana, Suriname, etc... But in reality. Their is no way of knowing EXACTLY what their genetic purity consists of. Even if I personally went to South America and collected them myself. The Guyana could of been in a range that bred with Suriname locales 4 generations ago. Either way they are all both Northern red foots. I just take it to the next level of keeping where they came "from" together and don't breed outside of those ideals. Same goes with many Russians. They can all breed and produce offspring. But one year they could be brought in from multiple different countries. They may be different types, but same species. Blah Blah Blah. So on and so forth. usually these things can get out of hand. To each is own, I suppose.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Jun 22, 2013)

Indeed.

My personal stance is that the cons outweigh the pros as far as mixing. Likewise, the pros outweigh the cons for keeping them separate.

But like you said, to each his own.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Jun 22, 2013)

EricIvins said:


> There is this little thing called Taxonomy. This Taxonomy stuff is meant to be fluid, not a hard fast set of rules. What is considered a species one day, may be considered invalid the next. Or what might be considered a sub-specie, may be elevated to full specie status...



Right, so just because humans and chimps come from different species, that doesn't mean it's not worth experimenting a little with hybridizing them.

Come on, man. I certainly take your point that there is room for debate about what qualifies as a species. But dismissing the whole concept of species altogether is just solipsism: throwing up your hands and saying, "I give up, do whatever you want." We can't do that. We know that there really are different species out there, and that mixing them can result in problems later on. Even mixing at the subspecies level, although the offspring can be quite healthy, should not be taken lightly.

It's one thing to question taxonomy, but flat out disregarding it is just irresponsible.


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## Yellow Turtle (Jun 22, 2013)

So can anyone shares what kind of hybrids has been produced from tortoises so far?

I know there are plenty for turtles, but for tortoises I only know sulcata x leopard for now.

It would be great if can share some pictures of the hybrid too.


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## jtrux (Jun 22, 2013)

This is a tortoise forum and as such you are gonna have die hard enthusiasts that would scoff at the idea of a hybrid but hybrids of all sorts have existed for years in various forms. Beefalo, Zebroids, and Ligers come to mind. 

After a little internet research it appears that there are some natural occuring hybrids for all the people saying hybridization is the devil. It seems polar bears and grizzlies have crossed in the wild and produce fertile offspring. Coyotes and wolves cross naturally in the wild as well. The most popular hybrid is probably the killer bee, which are European bees crossed with African bees. 

Getting back to tortoises. It's gonna happen. We can all sit behind our computers and throw popcorn at the monitor and be pissed at the people who condone it all day long but somewhere, somehow there's gonna be people mixing species together. These hybrids that are being created are regarded as desireable in the pet trade as there are a lot of people that desire them so it's not likely at all that they will ever be introduced into the wild to run off the "pure" species. It's likely the will be sterile anyways. So what if there are some Leopard/Sulcata mixes out there, they look cool and people sell them for a lot and make money with them. I wish I would've thought of it.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Jun 23, 2013)

Yellow Turtle said:


> So can anyone shares what kind of hybrids has been produced from tortoises so far?
> 
> I know there are plenty for turtles, but for tortoises I only know sulcata x leopard for now.
> 
> It would be great if can share some pictures of the hybrid too.



Someone posted a thread about a redfoot x leopard hybrid recently. I never thought it was possible until seeing the pics. I don't have the link though.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Jun 23, 2013)

jtrux said:


> This is a tortoise forum and as such you are gonna have die hard enthusiasts that would scoff at the idea of a hybrid but hybrids of all sorts have existed for years in various forms. Beefalo, Zebroids, and Ligers come to mind.



Beefalo are typically sterile, but their legacy has made bison conservation much more difficult because now even some wild populations have cattle gene introgression in them (I work with bison ecology).

Zebroids are a rare novelty, and again, usually sterile.

Ligers are typically quite unhealthy, with shortened lifespans and various disorders.



> It seems polar bears and grizzlies have crossed in the wild and produce fertile offspring.



Yes, that does appear to be happening more frequently now, as brown bears move north, and polar bears lose icy habitat. Brown and polar bears are actually very closely related, and very similar genetically.



> Coyotes and wolves cross naturally in the wild as well.



Most wolf x coyote hybrids have reduced fertility, and go extinct after several generations due to sterility. Having said that, there are a few hybrid populations out there. The red wolf appears to be of wolf x coyote hybrid origin. Also, the New England canid appears to be of wolf, dog, and coyote origin (note: wolves and dogs are in the same species, _Canis lupus_).



> The most popular hybrid is probably the killer bee, which are European bees crossed with African bees.



European and African bees are actually two subspecies within the same species (_Apis mellifera_). This is why they can freely interbreed, and produce fully viable and fertile offspring. It's like northern and southern wolves mixing, or Carolina and three-toed box turtles interbreeding. This is _not_ an example of interspecific hybridization.



> Getting back to tortoises. It's gonna happen.



Sometimes intraspecific mixing and even interspecific hybridization can occur in the wild. And in captivity, mixing subspecies can be justified if an animal is very endangered. However, for the most part, mixing different subspecies and hybridizing different species in captivity is irresponsible, and a form of genetic pollution.



> These hybrids that are being created are regarded as desireable in the pet trade as there are a lot of people that desire them



Factory farming is considered "desirable" in some circles, too, but that doesn't necessarily make it justified. If more people knew the consequences of irresponsible breeding, both in the world of chelonians and with other types of animals, I don't think they would continue doing what they're doing.



> so it's not likely at all that they will ever be introduced into the wild to run off the "pure" species. It's likely the will be sterile anyways. So what if there are some Leopard/Sulcata mixes out there, they look cool and people sell them for a lot and make money with them. I wish I would've thought of it.



Sad.


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## Tom (Jun 23, 2013)

Very well stated GTT. I agree.

Because some doctoral candidate somewhere might decide to "re-do" some tortoise classification is no reason to just willy nilly throw some cherry heads in with some red-foots, or to just plop some regular leopards in with my South Africans.

The flippant, "Awe, it doesn't really matter..." attitude is the reason why the captive populations of RFs and leopard tortoises are so messed up.

I don't like hybridization in mammals. I don't like it in fish. And I don't like it in tortoises or other reptiles. It should be discouraged where ever possible.

Kelly may not be able to 100% verify the origin of all of his animals, but I applaud the effort to at least ATTEMPT to keep like with like.


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## Millerlite (Jun 23, 2013)

So if your saying all the hybrids that occurred naturally in the wild die off because fertility is lower and genres are weaker and they end up not making it, why would tortoises be different and hybrid tortoises thrive so much it will make genes pools disappear? They won't be genetically as strong as a "pure tortoise"


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## FLINTUS (Jun 23, 2013)

The hybrid thriving idea is interesting. Certainly in the case of already domesticated mammals, hybrids do appear to be hardier. I suspect they wouldn't thrive in the wild because the needs are compromised-there isn't the ideal condition- just like any hybrid wouldn't thrive in the wild because you never have the ideal care, however in captivity IF a keeper can get the right balance for the hybrid's IDEAL care, then it should technically be hardier.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Jun 23, 2013)

Millerlite said:


> So if your saying all the hybrids that occurred naturally in the wild die off because fertility is lower and genres are weaker and they end up not making it, why would tortoises be different and hybrid tortoises thrive so much it will make genes pools disappear? They won't be genetically as strong as a "pure tortoise"





FLINTUS said:


> The hybrid thriving idea is interesting. Certainly in the case of already domesticated mammals, hybrids do appear to be hardier. I suspect they wouldn't thrive in the wild because the needs are compromised-there isn't the ideal condition- just like any hybrid wouldn't thrive in the wild because you never have the ideal care, however in captivity IF a keeper can get the right balance for the hybrid's IDEAL care, then it should technically be hardier.



The word "hybrid" always generates a lot of confusion. Hybrid literally means "half-breed," or the result of a union from unlike parents. But that could mean a number of things. "Hybrid vigor" is an old term that refers to the tendency for mixed offspring to be healthier than pure offspring. This is because inbreeding weakens animals through the accumulation of harmful alleles, so by mixing them up, you reshuffle the deck and give them more copies of healthier alleles. But again, the term "hybrid" here is misleading, because it refers to intraspecific mixing, not interspecific hybridization. In other words, mutt dogs tend to be healthier than purebreds, because they have fewer harmful alleles. Ditto for mixed-breed horses vs. purebred horses, or mixed-breed cats vs. purebred cats, and so on. One exception is mules, which are the offspring of two different species of equid, and that do exhibit "hybrid vigor." But again, that's not entirely accurate, because most mules are not fit when it comes to reproduction, i.e. they are usually sterile. In general, though, hybrid vigor has to do with recent, artificially selected breeds, not naturally occurring species and subspecies.

In nature, species and subspecies are much older than breeds, and they have evolved to fit certain types of environments. Mixing subspecies up may not produce offspring that are unhealthy (they're still the same species), but it does produce offspring that may lose their adaptations to specific conditions, such as temperature or moisture. Thus, mixing may not be bad for captive animals, but it can be bad for animals that might get reintroduced into nature down the line.

As for hybridization above the species level, this is not only bad in nature, it's also bad in captivity. Hybrid offspring are often a lot less healthy than normal offspring. So, rather than having "hybrid vigor" from mixing, hybridization produces illness in them instead. They may have reduced longevity or difficulties with activity, and their behaviors may be inappropriate. They may be sterile, so as unhealthy as they are, they might not pass it onto the next generation. However, sometimes they just have reduced fertility, meaning that although they may not produce as many sperm or eggs as normal animals, they can still produce some, and therefore reproduce. That means that their problems can get passed onto the next generation, which can be bad both in nature and in captivity. This is why hybridization is considered a form of genetic pollution, and should be avoided.


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## FLINTUS (Jun 23, 2013)

I have to say, that is a FANTASTIC post.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Jun 23, 2013)

FLINTUS said:


> The hybrid thriving idea is interesting. Certainly in the case of already domesticated mammals, hybrids do appear to be hardier. I suspect they wouldn't thrive in the wild because the needs are compromised-there isn't the ideal condition- just like any hybrid wouldn't thrive in the wild because you never have the ideal care, however in captivity IF a keeper can get the right balance for the hybrid's IDEAL care, then it should technically be hardier.



I think you have it a tad backwards. The NATURAL species/sub-species typically get the "ideal care" in the wild, because that is the environment that they have evolved to dwell in thousands, if not millions of yrs ago. In captivity is where we humans often screw things up; look how long it takes for us to get a good handle on proper husbandry!

But I do see your fundamental point: yes, hybrids would likely not survive as well in the wild because they do not exist in the wild in the first place. So it is only in captivity where they can "survive" simply because we help them along the way. The same could be said for genetic mutations such as albinos, and piebald snakes, etc. We praise the mutations (most of the herp community, anyway) because they look cool and they are worth more. But we often forget that these are ANOMALIES, ABERRATIONS to the real deal, and likewise, would not survive in nature. There is a REASON a sulcata is colored the way it is, and not naturally ivory. There is a reason a cherry head looks the way it is and a yellow foot looks the way it is. Evolution decided this, not us.


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## Millerlite (Jun 23, 2013)

StudentoftheReptile said:


> FLINTUS said:
> 
> 
> > The hybrid thriving idea is interesting. Certainly in the case of already domesticated mammals, hybrids do appear to be hardier. I suspect they wouldn't thrive in the wild because the needs are compromised-there isn't the ideal condition- just like any hybrid wouldn't thrive in the wild because you never have the ideal care, however in captivity IF a keeper can get the right balance for the hybrid's IDEAL care, then it should technically be hardier.
> ...



Yeah we are still evolving to get captive care right. I been around the hobby for a bit not as long as some, and just in the time I been researching reading and caring for these unique reptiles things are still uncertain. Things have changed a lot. 5 years ago we cared for our tortoises in a totally horrible no tortoise can live in those condition to today standards. Don't get me wrong we everyone in this hobby today are doing better but I would say we even come close to perfect conditions... 

Back to the topic: you nailed it on this mutations of hypos, albinos and any other morph that are desired. They def look very cool, and the price tag really shows that , but they wouldn't survive in the wild because there color is just not meant to be that way and hasn't evolved too, (just repeating what he said above) these tho are morphs or almost "defects" that we love in the wild this happens you don't see an adult albino just cuz they probably die. Hybrids tho. Can survive depending on what they are hybrids with. American box turtles in te wild cross breed and they do find usually look like one or the other tho. Which is why they probably survive. Do they live as long.. No idea, but they arnt necessary at disadvantage.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Jun 23, 2013)

StudentoftheReptile said:


> We praise the mutations (most of the herp community, anyway) because they look cool and they are worth more. But we often forget that these are ANOMALIES, ABERRATIONS to the real deal, and likewise, would not survive in nature. There is a REASON a sulcata is colored the way it is, and not naturally ivory. There is a reason a cherry head looks the way it is and a yellow foot looks the way it is. Evolution decided this, not us.



Very refreshing to read that. Thank you! I'd take a wildtype reptile over a morph any day.



Millerlite said:


> Hybrids tho. Can survive depending on what they are hybrids with. American box turtles in te wild cross breed and they do find usually look like one or the other tho. Which is why they probably survive. Do they live as long.. No idea, but they arnt necessary at disadvantage.



There is a large zone of intergradation in the Southeastern United States, where three-toed, Carolina, Florida, and Gulf Coast boxies mix. You can't place the eastern boxies there in any one subspecies. But again, they are all conspecific, and these intergrades do well in that part of the South.

However, the boundary between the eastern and western box turtle species is in the middle of Kansas. There, western boxies are adapted to the higher, colder, drier plains to the west, and eastern boxies to the lower, warmer, moister plains to the east. Historically they did not hybridize very often, although nowadays they hybridize more often, probably due to habitat degradation. When it gets harder to find suitable habitat and mate with their own kind, animals are willing to search far and wide and mate with a member of another related species. However, it's doubtful that these _Terrapene carolina_ x _T. ornata_ hybrids are as fit as either of their parent species in the Great Plains.


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## cdmay (Jun 24, 2013)

The idea of producing hybrids in captivity is of course not new and in itself is not necessarily a bad thing. Orchid growers have been producing complex hybrids for over a hundred years. But orchid growers (for the most part) have also kept very detailed records about the lineage of each cross. In addition, orchid species and identifiable regional variants have been closely and carefully preserved so that they are not lost in the bewildering universe of crosses.
This has not been the case with reptile keepers who have produced so many crosses and mutations in snakes in the past thirty years that now the Big Fear of ecologists have come true--these mutts are being released into the wild to screw up native snake genes. Whether intentional or not, corn snakes and kingsnakes that possess multiple mutation gene mixes common to the 'designer morph' craze have now been found in Florida in numerous locations. 
It is an undeniable fact that many garage breeders of boas, pythons and colubrid snakes have proved that they are not the most responsible people in the world. Just take a look at the pythons in the Everglades if you need further proof.
EricIvins makes a good point when he says that hybrid tortoises are not likely to be overrunning the reptile trade any time soon. But his idea that since most people don't really know *exactly* where their tortoises came from, trying to maintain identifiable locality types is nothing more than 'chest thumping' is overly simplistic and demeaning. He is an animal dealer and no doubt has seen thousands of imported tortoises from more or less identifiable places. I'm pretty sure EricIvins could see a group of imported red-footed tortoises and tell you with great accuracy what country they were exported from. Does that mean there are no interlopers from somewhere else mixed in, or no unusual animals in that group that don't fit the general phenotype of that region? Of course not. But in general an experienced person has a good idea. 
I've been involved with imported tortoises since the 1960s when my uncle worked for Bill Chase in Miami. I spent countless hours at Pet Farm, Chase's, Chapman's and the many other smaller importers. I was at Pet Farm when the first major shipment of the so called cherry-head (about 3500 animals) red-footed tortoises came in. Believe me, although there are exceptions, I can pretty much tell you what the most commonly imported red-footed tortoises look like. I don't need to know exactly what plot of land each animal came from to be a responsible breeder-- and that isn't chest thumping. I guess I could play dumb as some folks on this and other forums have done in the past and say, "Aw shucks, I didn't check their passports and a redfoot is just a redfoot, so I'll just breed my cherryhead to this Colombian._ Duh_, they look exactly the same to me anyway."
OK, I know that this isn't what most of you are saying. But some have.

Having said all of this (and gotten it off my thumped chest), I do agree with EricIvins about the idea that a leopard X sulcata cross might be the best pet tortoise going in the future. That might just be true and I'm not against people producing them. I sure hope these animals are clearly identified and not sold as 'dark' leopard tortoises or sulcatas 'with some spots' though. But seeing what has happened with designer snakes doesn't make me feel that hopeful.


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## FLINTUS (Jun 24, 2013)

surely people would hope in the future that sulcatas altogether are not bred much and only given to very experienced keepers?


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## ra94131 (Jul 12, 2013)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> StudentoftheReptile said:
> 
> 
> > We praise the mutations (most of the herp community, anyway) because they look cool and they are worth more. But we often forget that these are ANOMALIES, ABERRATIONS to the real deal, and likewise, would not survive in nature. There is a REASON a sulcata is colored the way it is, and not naturally ivory. There is a reason a cherry head looks the way it is and a yellow foot looks the way it is. Evolution decided this, not us.
> ...



My thoughts exactly. I have about as much of a problem with most morphs as I do hybridization. Admittedly though, hybridization is a bigger potential problem down the line as far as genetic "purity" goes. Try buying a true _Boa constrictor constrictor_ or a pure Jungle Carpet Python and you quickly realize the only option is a reputable breeder, because the "Craigslist-type animals" are almost all hybridized somewhere down the line. (I know there are a ton more examples, but those are two I've looked into at some point.)

I have even more respect for people that are dedicated to keeping locality purity intact, because that just adds another level of dedication. When I buy an animal, I want something representative of what is really out there in the wild.


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