# Does he have early signs of pyramiding??



## Michael Malone (Nov 16, 2017)

I think he is showing signs of pyramiding I soak 4-5 times a week I mist down encloser daily and keep his humid hide around 95% . Enclosure stays around 80 degrees and has a hot spot of 100 degrees. Diet consist of grasses ,weeds and romain lettuce. Here are some photos let me know what you guys think.


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## Tom (Nov 16, 2017)

Yes, he is pyramiding.


He needs to be soaked every day.
If you have an open top, spraying the enclosure does very little. 95% is okay for the hide, but what is humidity in the rest of the enclosure?
What substrate are you using?


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## Unique Username (Nov 16, 2017)

Michael Malone said:


> I think he is showing signs of pyramiding I soak 4-5 times a week I mist down encloser daily and keep his humid hide around 95% . Enclosure stays around 80 degrees and has a hot spot of 100 degrees. Diet consist of grasses ,weeds and romain lettuce. Here are some photos let me know what you guys think.
> View attachment 223086
> View attachment 223087
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> ...


Tom is much more experienced than me and most likely one of the most qualified people to respond to your post. I am a new owner ( a little over a year) but i have done alot of research and would like to add something that usually doesn't come up during these conversations. 

Besides the obvious controlled variables of sun and humidity I believe one of the largest contributing factors in pyrimiding is diet. I am not claiming that you are giving him an improper diet, but referring to the problem of cb powergrowing. Basically (as the community agrees on) everything we can offer our tortoises is so vitimin and protein enriched it makes their natural diet look like cardboard. Because of this most cb tortoises can reach full adult size in a little as 2 years (more common in smaller testudo species but accelerated growth rate is apparent in larger breads like sulcatas.) Personally I belive that this is just as much a contributing factor as sun and humidity. Sadly without a local nursury and your own garden with apropriaot soil you can't do much to perfectly replicate their natural diet. What you can do is limit feeding, I'm not saying starve your tortoise, but it's also not a good idea to offer them an unlimited amount of food. Someone will need to confirm, but I believe only allowing them to eat what they can for 30 min is the best (variety problems can occur with picky eaters). 

This comment may be better suited in a debating thread, but just my 2cents.


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## Big Charlie (Nov 17, 2017)

Unique Username said:


> Tom is much more experienced than me and most likely one of the most qualified people to respond to your post. I am a new owner ( a little over a year) but i have done alot of research and would like to add something that usually doesn't come up during these conversations.
> 
> Besides the obvious controlled variables of sun and humidity I believe one of the largest contributing factors in pyrimiding is diet. I am not claiming that you are giving him an improper diet, but referring to the problem of cb powergrowing. Basically (as the community agrees on) everything we can offer our tortoises is so vitimin and protein enriched it makes their natural diet look like cardboard. Because of this most cb tortoises can reach full adult size in a little as 2 years (more common in smaller testudo species but accelerated growth rate is apparent in larger breads like sulcatas.) Personally I belive that this is just as much a contributing factor as sun and humidity. Sadly without a local nursury and your own garden with apropriaot soil you can't do much to perfectly replicate their natural diet. What you can do is limit feeding, I'm not saying starve your tortoise, but it's also not a good idea to offer them an unlimited amount of food. Someone will need to confirm, but I believe only allowing them to eat what they can for 30 min is the best (variety problems can occur with picky eaters).
> 
> This comment may be better suited in a debating thread, but just my 2cents.


I don't agree. As long as you offer the right foods and enough room to get exercise, your tortoise should get as much food as he can eat.


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## JoesMum (Nov 17, 2017)

Where are all these “don’t feed your tort” people appearing from this week?

A tortoise in the wild spends its day browsing for food. Some days it may find something particularly good and gorge itself, some days it may fail and go hungry, more often it will eat what it wants and needs. 

In captivity, assuming you are feeding the correct diet, there is absolutely no reason to restrict the food intake. 

A tortoise does need enough space to exercise properly. It shouldn’t be fed entirely on pellets. 

Otherwise let it browse through the day and the tort will be fine. 

And fixing the pyramidding requires fixing the humidity as detailed by Tom


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## teresaf (Nov 17, 2017)

Yes, I agree. Close the enclosure and increase your humidity and make sure your temperatures are above 80 in every little nook and cranny. Pyramiding is from growth in low humidity times. So, yeah, I guess if you stop feeding your tortoise he won't grow and you won't get a pyramided tortoise.... Wouldn't it be better though to provide humidity for him and give him some gosh darn food?


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## Tom (Nov 17, 2017)

Unique Username said:


> Tom is much more experienced than me and most likely one of the most qualified people to respond to your post. I am a new owner ( a little over a year) but i have done alot of research and would like to add something that usually doesn't come up during these conversations.
> 
> Besides the obvious controlled variables of sun and humidity I believe one of the largest contributing factors in pyrimiding is diet. I am not claiming that you are giving him an improper diet, but referring to the problem of cb powergrowing. Basically (as the community agrees on) everything we can offer our tortoises is so vitimin and protein enriched it makes their natural diet look like cardboard. Because of this most cb tortoises can reach full adult size in a little as 2 years (more common in smaller testudo species but accelerated growth rate is apparent in larger breads like sulcatas.) Personally I belive that this is just as much a contributing factor as sun and humidity. Sadly without a local nursury and your own garden with apropriaot soil you can't do much to perfectly replicate their natural diet. What you can do is limit feeding, I'm not saying starve your tortoise, but it's also not a good idea to offer them an unlimited amount of food. Someone will need to confirm, but I believe only allowing them to eat what they can for 30 min is the best (variety problems can occur with picky eaters).
> 
> This comment may be better suited in a debating thread, but just my 2cents.



Your comment was well worded, very respectful, and obviously had good intentions. My reply will strive to achieve the same.

The ideas expressed in your post were/are common, and they are not correct. We've debated and disproven your expressed assertions many times here over the last few years. In summary, pyramiding is _caused_ by growth in conditions that are too dry. Pyramiding is _not_ caused by food of one type or another, food of one quantity or another, lack of sunshine, lack of calcium, lack of D3, protein, glass enclosures, or any of the other things that it is incorrectly attributed to. It is easy to see where you got that idea, and you are not alone. All the old books, experts, vets, and breeders are largely still saying this same thing, and all of the above _seem _like such credible sources, though they are not. In fact, I used to repeat the same sort of thing, until first hand experience proved me wrong time and time again, which is what began a decade's long tortoise adventure/obsession to discover what was really going on. The problem is that me, you, and so many others followed their advice for decades with zero success and most of us experienced 100% failure in our attempts to grow a smooth, natural looking, tortoise.

Allow me to lay out my case:

I was where you are in 1991, with my first sulcata hatchling in hand. I read the books, followed all the "expert" advice of the day and raised a very healthy, very well cared for, but pyramided, sulcata. This was very frustrating, and I couldn't understand where I went wrong. More "experts" were consulted and the general consensus was that grocery store foods were too nutritious, too high in protein, unnatural, and typically fed in quantities and frequencies that were too great. It was explained that where these desert animals occur there is little food for most of the year, and they are lucky to find and occasional tuft of dead grass to eat. "They" also all agreed and told me that raising them indoors was a contributing factor, that tortoises do better outdoors, and that sunshine and D3 would help to prevent pyramiding. Sound familiar? It was explained as a nutritional problem. This explanation made sense, but it wasn't correct. Armed with this new knowledge of where I went wrong, I went out and got two more babies to raise. They were outside in a 12x40' enclosure most of each day. They were fed sparingly, I skipped feeding days frequently, and I only fed them "natural" foods like grass and weeds. They grew very slowly. They grew so slowly that I think I stunted them. They were both male and at 10 years old they were only 30 pounds. And… they were more pyramided than the first one. No one at that time had any idea that they needed warm, damp, humid, monsoon conditions. No one seemed to understand that babies hatch at the start of the annual monsoonal rainy season. No one seemed to understand that they don't live in the desert, they live in grassland and forest edges where a lot of annual rainfall is the norm. No one seemed to understand that their first few months of life in the wild offer conditions like South Florida or New Orleans in summer with puddles, seasonal marshes and green growing food everywhere. No one seemed to understand that older, larger tortoises spend the hot dry season underground in warm, damp burrows to escape the desiccation and dehydration of the hot African sun. It would be many years before I would understand any of that too…
What we humans in North America, and elsewhere, speculate about how they live in nature over there, has proven time and time again to be wrong, and yield poor results. The weather info we have from over there is collected by weather stations with sensors mounted at the international standard of 2 meters above ground, out in the wide open and away from any shade, vegetation, or cover. What we now know is that while wild conditions are survivable for about 1 baby in every 300-1000, wild conditions, whatever they may be, are seldom _ideal_. We also now know that when ideal conditions and good food are offered in our captive environments, that they do grow faster that they would under the barely survivable conditions in the wild. This is not "power growing", this is not unhealthy, this doesn't cause or contribute to pyramiding in any way. Offering the best wild conditions that they might see, while offering a good, high fiber, high calcium, varied diet, and letting them graze freely, like a wild tortoise would, is not a bad thing. Quite the opposite.
I've done many individual experiments, as well as side-by-side experiments over almost a decade now to prove what I'm saying here, and disprove the incorrect info that you are parroting here in this thread. Please don't take that as an insult. I used to parrot the same wrong info too, and I feel it is safe to assume that is what is happening since you have one year with one tortoise to base your assertions on. Its only logical to assume that you've read that info, or been told that info from some other source. Many other people all over the globe have repeated and are repeating my same experiments and they are universally getting the same results.
Here is one such "experiment" started back in 2010 and still going today:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding.15137/

I hope you'll consider all of this and come back with questions and conversation. Feel free to ask for more evidence and make me explain and prove my points.

And welcome to the forum.


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## Michael Malone (Nov 17, 2017)

Tom said:


> Yes, he is pyramiding.
> 
> 
> He needs to be soaked every day.
> ...



It is a 2'x4' box with cypress blend mulch. His hide substrate is coco coir. I cover the enclosure with plexiglass except on the end his basking and uvb lamps are on the humidity ranges from 40-70% inside enclosure. If you think it this is caused from being to dry do u think I should move him back into my 60 gallon aquarium with all coco coir substrate cause I know it is easier for me to keep humidity up in the aquarium.

And I try to be as diverse as I can in his diet I walk my land and pick grasses and weeds for him daily. He still won't touch the cactus I try to feed him and I do feed him romain to fill the gaps cause he some times he dosent eat alll his grasses that I give him and want to make sure he is getting enough to eat

Thanks


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## teresaf (Nov 17, 2017)

You should be able to get your humidity up if you close the gaps around your lamps. Some people use a heat resistant tape it looks like aluminum foil. Heck some people use aluminum foil. Once you have all gaps covered around the edges of the plexiglass or corners you should be able to pour water in to raise the humidity inside. The substrate should be very damp (almost wet) except for the very top maybe quarter inch which will be almost dry.


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## Tom (Nov 18, 2017)

Michael Malone said:


> It is a 2'x4' box with cypress blend mulch. His hide substrate is coco coir. I cover the enclosure with plexiglass except on the end his basking and uvb lamps are on the humidity ranges from 40-70% inside enclosure. If you think it this is caused from being to dry do u think I should move him back into my 60 gallon aquarium with all coco coir substrate cause I know it is easier for me to keep humidity up in the aquarium.
> 
> And I try to be as diverse as I can in his diet I walk my land and pick grasses and weeds for him daily. He still won't touch the cactus I try to feed him and I do feed him romain to fill the gaps cause he some times he dosent eat alll his grasses that I give him and want to make sure he is getting enough to eat
> 
> Thanks



A closed chamber with all the heating and lighting inside the box works best.

Humidity should be 80-90%. Think monsoon season in the tropics. Ever been to New Orleans or Miami in summer?

Stopping pyramiding in progress is much harder than preventing pyramiding. You will need to keep humidity very high, spray the carapace several times a day, and soak daily if you want to stop it.

All of those substrates work well for adding humidity to the air. One of them doesn't work any better than the others in my experience. I prefer fine grade orchid bark.

If the breeder you bought from didn't introduce new and novel foods in those critical first few weeks, which is likely, you will have to spend months getting the tortoise to try all these new things. Its time well spent and the end result is worth the effort.


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## Unique Username (Nov 20, 2017)

Tom said:


> Your comment was well worded, very respectful, and obviously had good intentions. My reply will strive to achieve the same.
> 
> The ideas expressed in your post were/are common, and they are not correct. We've debated and disproven your expressed assertions many times here over the last few years. In summary, pyramiding is _caused_ by growth in conditions that are too dry. Pyramiding is _not_ caused by food of one type or another, food of one quantity or another, lack of sunshine, lack of calcium, lack of D3, protein, glass enclosures, or any of the other things that it is incorrectly attributed to. It is easy to see where you got that idea, and you are not alone. All the old books, experts, vets, and breeders are largely still saying this same thing, and all of the above _seem _like such credible sources, though they are not. In fact, I used to repeat the same sort of thing, until first hand experience proved me wrong time and time again, which is what began a decade's long tortoise adventure/obsession to discover what was really going on. The problem is that me, you, and so many others followed their advice for decades with zero success and most of us experienced 100% failure in our attempts to grow a smooth, natural looking, tortoise.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the helpful information Tom. After doing more research I see that you are correct, my sources were old and/or misleading. I still believe that “power growing” is a problem if you offer the wrong foods, but as you and the others have said, if you offer the correct foods (that are easily available) you will have no health concerns allowing tortoises to eat as much as they want. Again, thank you for your help.


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## Alaskamike (Nov 28, 2017)

I can’t add to the thorough answer @Tom gave about humidity. . Except to say with my own experience over the last 5 years + using his recommendations , they have proven correct ( I have an Aldabra, Leopard , 2 Sulcata’s ) Rescued a 2.3lb Sulcata off craigs list that was supposed to be almost 3 yrs old & pyramided ; raised indoors in a plastic bin. I expressed doubt he could be that old but was assured he was.

2 years later he is 19 lbs and the pyramiding is notably better. “Tiny “ , as I call him , eats like a pig. Grazes on weeds & grass , gets cactus & hibiscus regularly with occasional squash, watermelon, mushrooms, + calcium supplement ( when I think of it ) a few times a month. He is amazingly active. Thriving outdoors. 

He soaks in a kiddy pool I got. Dug a tunnel in his surround - have no idea how deep it goes. 

I have an advantage here in South Florida. Once I built him an outdoor environment his humidity was 70-95% 9 months of the year. And it rains - ALLOT In the “ winter “ months his hide box is heated to 85f & has a water pan in it to provide more humidity + for the 1st yr I had him - soaked almost daily. 

What I’m saying is - with water to drink, soaks / humidity , enough UV, I see zero adverse effects of constant good food. But it is probable with Tiny, a lack of exercise contributed to his stunted growth. At 4-5 years he is still on the small side compared to some I’ve seen. But on all measures of health now he is catching up 

It is important to remember that when people say you can’t over feed them - they have in mind food that is good for their metabolism. This to me means 95%+ weeds, grass, flowers, cactus etc for a grazing tortoise like Sulcata; fruits, watermelon, squash , etc are once in awhile. 

My Aldabra likes dog food , & gets into it sometimes if I’m not careful on my lanai. But that doesn’t mean I should feed it to her. Her metabolism will not handle a bunch of protein on any regular basis. 

Good fortune to you & your little one


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## Michael Malone (Jan 17, 2018)

Secil has been in his closed chamber for going on two months now with temps in 90's and humoty at 99%. I believe I can see a change in his new growth. What do y'all think?

@Tom







i


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## Tom (Jan 17, 2018)

I think Secil looks great. I see improvement.

The amount of pyramiding that occurred was minuscule, and I don't think that anyone looking at this tortoise a year or two, or more years, from now would ever have any idea that there was ever any pyramiding. You stopped it early. Well done!


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## Michael Malone (Jan 17, 2018)

Thank u


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## Bee62 (Jan 17, 2018)

Unique Username said:


> Tom is much more experienced than me and most likely one of the most qualified people to respond to your post. I am a new owner ( a little over a year) but i have done alot of research and would like to add something that usually doesn't come up during these conversations.
> 
> Besides the obvious controlled variables of sun and humidity I believe one of the largest contributing factors in pyrimiding is diet. I am not claiming that you are giving him an improper diet, but referring to the problem of cb powergrowing. Basically (as the community agrees on) everything we can offer our tortoises is so vitimin and protein enriched it makes their natural diet look like cardboard. Because of this most cb tortoises can reach full adult size in a little as 2 years (more common in smaller testudo species but accelerated growth rate is apparent in larger breads like sulcatas.) Personally I belive that this is just as much a contributing factor as sun and humidity. Sadly without a local nursury and your own garden with apropriaot soil you can't do much to perfectly replicate their natural diet. What you can do is limit feeding, I'm not saying starve your tortoise, but it's also not a good idea to offer them an unlimited amount of food. Someone will need to confirm, but I believe only allowing them to eat what they can for 30 min is the best (variety problems can occur with picky eaters).
> 
> This comment may be better suited in a debating thread, but just my 2cents.


I don`t agree with your thoughts about tortoises diet and pyramiding.
I live in Germany where winters are long and cold. Grass and weeds are not available at present. I feed my growing sulcata tortoises grocery greens: ( and I feed as much they can eat every day )
Lambs lettuce, Belgium endive and romain lettuce.
They are 18 months old and now look at my pictures how smooth their shells are.
They live in a closed chamber with ambient warmth and high humidity.
ONLY HIGH HUMIDITY CAN PREVENT PYRAMIDUNG !


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## Unique Username (Jan 17, 2018)

Bee62 said:


> I don`t agree with your thoughts about tortoises diet and pyramiding.
> I live in Germany where winters are long and cold. Grass and weeds are not available at present. I feed my growing sulcata tortoises grocery greens: ( and I feed as much they can eat every day )
> Lambs lettuce, Belgium endive and romain lettuce.
> They are 18 months old and now look at my pictures how smooth their shells are.
> ...


In previous comments Tom already explained how my information was from old and misleading sources, and after doing more reasurch I agreed with him. Thank you for trying to give proper information though.


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## Bambam1989 (Jan 17, 2018)

Bee62 said:


> I don`t agree with your thoughts about tortoises diet and pyramiding.
> I live in Germany where winters are long and cold. Grass and weeds are not available at present. I feed my growing sulcata tortoises grocery greens: ( and I feed as much they can eat every day )
> Lambs lettuce, Belgium endive and romain lettuce.
> They are 18 months old and now look at my pictures how smooth their shells are.
> ...


PyramiDUNG? Bee I believe you have made a hilarious typo[emoji28]


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## Bee62 (Jan 17, 2018)

Bambam1989 said:


> PyramiDUNG? Bee I believe you have made a hilarious typo[emoji28]





Bambam1989 said:


> PyramiDUNG? Bee I believe you have made a hilarious typo[emoji28]


Oh, yes .... sometimes poop/dung even can pyramid..


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