# Why do people breed Sulcata's



## Candy

This is a question that I've wanted to ask ever since I started reading threads and posts on this website. After what I saw today I'm going to go ahead and ask it. I thought some of you might be offended, but now it just comes down to right and wrong to me. Today my husband and I were headed to a farmers market, but I wanted to stop by a petstore first to look at some bird cages. After we looked I decided to see if they had any tortoises there and low and behold there were two big Sulcatas in this 6ft x 2ft enclosure (it was around that size we didn't measure it). One of the Sulcatas was around 50lbs and the other I would say was a good 35lbs. both males. There was some shedded stuff at the bottom of the enclosure and no water at all in there. I asked the girl that helped us with the cages where their water was and she said that they get it from the romaine lettuce that they eat. I told her that is not correct and they need water at all times and even to soak in. She seemed surprised. From being on this forum I knew I had to ask for the owner of this place and they were nice and wrote it down for me. I came home and printed out a care sheet and took it back to her and am sending one to the owner tomorrow. She was very nice actually and I also gave her this website and told her that when she sold any she should hand out one of these caresheets and give them this address. She said it was a good idea. Now is there anything to be done about the enclosure that they're being kept in should I contact the SPCA on that? The thing is that they also had about 5 or 6 babies in a tank to sell too. Why are people breeding something so big? I know that a lot of them go to rescues. I just think that is not a very responsible thing to do since these creatures grow to be more than 100lbs and most people don't have the proper space for them. Hopefully I will get some good responses on this and someone can make me understand why people would do this for a living or a hobby.


----------



## KQ6AR

Hi Candy,
You won't get an argument from me, I agree with you. If anyone wants a sucata, I think their only choice should be a >50# tortoise. At least that way they'll realize what their getting into. I don't think the pet stores that sell the hatchlings make sure the customer knows what they are getting into. 
Anyway its a sore subject for me also.


----------



## Laura

MONEY! and the y have NO clue the pressure they are putting on the rescues or dont care. Its neeat to have babies.. they are cute. but how many die? Do they give proper education? how many people can really house them properly? 
If the majority of them die, which they probably do, is it ok to cont breeding? Is it right? 
I dont know...


----------



## Candy

I think that the petstores and the breeders have an obligation to inform people about how to take care of these living things. I mean it's not like your buying a piece of clothing or furniture. You're buying a living reptile. I don't know how they can go home at night if they don't give the right information to keep them healthy. It should be a law. And you're right Laura it is all about the money and nothing else.


----------



## terryo

I agree Laura...MONEY...Here in NY we have the 4 in. law also Boxies are illegal to sell...as is Iguana's.....BUT...if you know someone who works in a pet store or owns one you can get anything..if you ask someone to get you a tortoise hatchling ...that is what they usually come up with... a Sulcata hatchling. The almighty dollar is what counts in most any situation...very sad.


----------



## Maggie Cummings

First of all...I am totally against breeding Sulcata. But that is an old debate, some for some con. 
You shouldn't get too upset about the size of the pen that they are kept in because (I think) they are just housed that way while they are for sale. So find out first if they are kept that way while they are for sale before you get too upset. Small pet shops don't have a lot of room to display their animals. And Sulcata don't drink much water so not seeing a water dish is not too terrible. I offer Bob water every other day or so because if he's not drinking and there is water in his bowl he will drag it over to his pile of hay and slip it all on the hay. In a small pet shop I would hope to see water in there 3 times a week.
Now...on the West Coast we all know that Sulcata are like feral cats; over bred and not cared for. Our rescues are full, most won't take Sulcatas anymore and no zoos will take them. On the West Coast we would almost string up someone for breeding Sulcata...BUT...that's NOT the case on the East Coast for the most part. Their rescues aren't over burdened. They are looking to buy/adopt/rescue Sulcata there. We have a forum member who says he can find homes for all the Sulcata we on the West Coast would like to get rid of. So we could start shipping our Sulcata to the East Coast except it's just too darned expensive...


----------



## egyptiandan

Oooooooooo a bit of deja vu  We have a pretty big thread going about just this Candy  http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-3231.html

Danny


----------



## Candy

egyptiandan said:


> Oooooooooo a bit of deja vu  We have a pretty big thread going about just this Candy  http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-3231.html
> 
> Danny



Now that I went to that thread Danny I do remember it. This morning when I came home from the petstore I looked for threads that had the Sulcata care sheet on them, but to tell you the truth it was just to much to go through all of them to find it so I yahoo'd Sulcata care sheet and found quite a few there. You guys find these threads so easy, but not me so I start new ones. 



maggie3fan said:


> First of all...I am totally against breeding Sulcata. But that is an old debate, some for some con.
> You shouldn't get too upset about the size of the pen that they are kept in because (I think) they are just housed that way while they are for sale. So find out first if they are kept that way while they are for sale before you get too upset. Small pet shops don't have a lot of room to display their animals. And Sulcata don't drink much water so not seeing a water dish is not too terrible. I offer Bob water every other day or so because if he's not drinking and there is water in his bowl he will drag it over to his pile of hay and slip it all on the hay. In a small pet shop I would hope to see water in there 3 times a week.
> Now...on the West Coast we all know that Sulcata are like feral cats; over bred and not cared for. Our rescues are full, most won't take Sulcatas anymore and no zoos will take them. On the West Coast we would almost string up someone for breeding Sulcata...BUT...that's NOT the case on the East Coast for the most part. Their rescues aren't over burdened. They are looking to buy/adopt/rescue Sulcata there. We have a forum member who says he can find homes for all the Sulcata we on the West Coast would like to get rid of. So we could start shipping our Sulcata to the East Coast except it's just too darned expensive...



Maggie, is it O.K. to put two males of their size together in that size of an enclosure. Will one hurt the other one? I told the girl there that they usually try to knock each other over being males that it wasn't a good thing to house them together. I felt bad for the little one when I went back he tried to get to me through the glass with his mouth.


----------



## Maggie Cummings

Males generally won't fight when there is no female present. *generally*. The little one was just trying to get you to feed him


----------



## Candy

maggie3fan said:


> Males generally won't fight when there is no female present. *generally*. The little one was just trying to get you to feed him



Maggie I knew you would know. I feel quite a bit better now. Not that it's the best situation for both of them. I wish they never had to see a petstore and to be subject to that kind of environment. I wish they were at your house and you could take care of them like you do Bob and they could be wild and free.


----------



## reptylefreek

I think that its really good of you to print out a caresheet, especially if they are willing to take it. Pet store employees are just listening to orders so if you give them a reason to do research they can inform customers better. That girl will hopefully get on here and find out some real quality info that she can take back to work with her. And here on the west coast its really strange to see that large of a sulcata in a pet store, I wonder where it came from.


----------



## Candy

I agree with you that she did seem very interested when I mentioned the tortoise forum. She didn't know that there was such a site and I myself am hoping that she will come here and learn more since she does work with reptiles. I was surprised at myself that I didn't get mad I was just concerned and I think that comes from learning from the people on this site. I also thought they were pretty big to be in a petstore. This used to be family owned (way back when) and my husband says they've had there fair share of complaints and have even been shut down once or twice. When the manager gave me the owners name it's different then the previous owner so I think it's probably switched hands now. They do sell puppies in there and to me that's not a good thing. All one can do is hope to educate so things can change and hopefully the care sheet will do that.


----------



## -EJ

Because they can and it is the perfect... most adaptable... chelonian pet.

You do realize that the Sulcata was extremely rare as a pet 20 years ago (which is not as long as it seems to some). They now go for as low as $33 each retail in the trade. I guess it all depends on if you are a glass half full or a glass half empty kind of person.

Wrong is the animal disappearing in the wild. Overproducing the animal... I can debate that one. Then... consider that the private sector is responsible... think about all that.

As to your situation... sounds pretty judgemental to me.

Considering the numbers sold... relatively few go to rescues.



Candy said:


> This is a question that I've wanted to ask ever since I started reading threads and posts on this website. After what I saw today I'm going to go ahead and ask it. I thought some of you might be offended, but now it just comes down to right and wrong to me. Today my husband and I were headed to a farmers market, but I wanted to stop by a petstore first to look at some bird cages. After we looked I decided to see if they had any tortoises there and low and behold there were two big Sulcatas in this 6ft x 2ft enclosure (it was around that size we didn't measure it). One of the Sulcatas was around 50lbs and the other I would say was a good 35lbs. both males. There was some shedded stuff at the bottom of the enclosure and no water at all in there. I asked the girl that helped us with the cages where their water was and she said that they get it from the romaine lettuce that they eat. I told her that is not correct and they need water at all times and even to soak in. She seemed surprised. From being on this forum I knew I had to ask for the owner of this place and they were nice and wrote it down for me. I came home and printed out a care sheet and took it back to her and am sending one to the owner tomorrow. She was very nice actually and I also gave her this website and told her that when she sold any she should hand out one of these caresheets and give them this address. She said it was a good idea. Now is there anything to be done about the enclosure that they're being kept in should I contact the SPCA on that? The thing is that they also had about 5 or 6 babies in a tank to sell too. Why are people breeding something so big? I know that a lot of them go to rescues. I just think that is not a very responsible thing to do since these creatures grow to be more than 100lbs and most people don't have the proper space for them. Hopefully I will get some good responses on this and someone can make me understand why people would do this for a living or a hobby.


----------



## Candy

If seeing something trapped in a box that is not big enough to hold them and let them have freedom is judgmental than you've got me. This petstore has already been sited more than once or did you not read that part? I find it hard to believe (from what I've seen on here and at the reptile shows that Sulcata's are going to be extinct anytime soon. And as for the rescues you could be right because I think the majority of them die before they make it to the rescues, but I'll wait for the ones who do rescue them like Maggie or Yvonne to post their information for you. From what I've seen at the reptile shows it is the equivalent of what puppy mills do.


----------



## Maggie Cummings

Neither Yvonne nor I will post any information for EJ. He lives on the East Coast and has said in the past that he can find homes for any number of Sulcata that we can send to him. So in his part of the world like I said before, they don't see Sulcata like we do, over bred, abused, mistreated and unwanted. 
EJ is a very experienced keeper and has written several books on keeping different species. In fact if memory serves, one book he wrote was on keeping Sulcata and Leopards. I think another was on keeping Russians. OK, now EJ...where's my money for the pitch I just gave for your books???


----------



## -EJ

yea... they are not going to become extinct anytime soon... because of the pet trade.

As to rescues... I take in quite a few a year. I'm not a rescue. I keep a few and find homes for the rest. I've been doing that for years. I don't need the badge. The point is that I can always find a home for these 'unwanted' sulcata.

As to the enclosure... I've kept many tortoises in small enclosures... until they outgrow them.

The shops... those enclosures are temporary.

Every Sulcata breeder I know is as passionate about the hobby as you or I.

You really need to look past the hype.




Candy said:


> If seeing something trapped in a box that is not big enough to hold them and let them have freedom is judgmental than you've got me. This petstore has already been sited more than once or did you not read that part? I find it hard to believe (from what I've seen on here and at the reptile shows that Sulcata's are going to be extinct anytime soon. And as for the rescues you could be right because I think the majority of them die before they make it to the rescues, but I'll wait for the ones who do rescue them like Maggie or Yvonne to post their information for you. From what I've seen at the reptile shows it is the equivalent of what puppy mills do.


----------



## Stephanie Logan

http://harpoandfriends.homestead.com/Harpostory.html

People who want a Sulcata really do need to read Harpo's story at the link above. I thought it was funny and it was clear that the owner loved her reptile "project in the works", but the essay truly reveals the amount of time, space and food that are necessary to properly house these magnificent creatures!

Once again, thanks for the laugh, Maggie. Bob dragging his water dish over to his hay pile to wet it down...you really need to post some video of this character.


----------



## -EJ

you are sooooooooooooo sweet. Tank you.

My offer still stands... I can find all the homes you need.

To put it in perspective... as many that are sold... are they really a problem?





maggie3fan said:


> Neither Yvonne nor I will post any information for EJ. He lives on the East Coast and has said in the past that he can find homes for any number of Sulcata that we can send to him. So in his part of the world like I said before, they don't see Sulcata like we do, over bred, abused, mistreated and unwanted.
> EJ is a very experienced keeper and has written several books on keeping different species. In fact if memory serves, one book he wrote was on keeping Sulcata and Leopards. I think another was on keeping Russians. OK, now EJ...where's my money for the pitch I just gave for your books???




These are extremes and are not the norm... again... consider how many are sold and how many get passed on.



Stephanie Logan said:


> http://harpoandfriends.homestead.com/Harpostory.html
> 
> People who want a Sulcata really do need to read Harpo's story at the link above. I thought it was funny and it was clear that the owner loved her reptile "project in the works", but the essay truly reveals the amount of time, space and food that are necessary to properly house these magnificent creatures!
> 
> Once again, thanks for the laugh, Maggie. Bob dragging his water dish over to his hay pile to wet it down...you really need to post some video of this character.


----------



## Candy

Stephanie Logan said:


> http://harpoandfriends.homestead.com/Harpostory.html
> 
> People who want a Sulcata really do need to read Harpo's story at the link above. I thought it was funny and it was clear that the owner loved her reptile "project in the works", but the essay truly reveals the amount of time, space and food that are necessary to properly house these magnificent creatures!
> 
> Once again, thanks for the laugh, Maggie. Bob dragging his water dish over to his hay pile to wet it down...you really need to post some video of this character.



That story truly is wonderful. If anyone was thinking of buying one of these huge creatures they should definitely read this story first. Actually it kind of reminds me of Maggie's Bob except Bob is about 70 lbs so a bit bigger the Harpo was. I love to see people's Sulcatas on this site, but I have to admire them for raising them (when they're raised properly I mean). I love to see Bob and Dudley they are characters. Thanks for posting the story hopefully people read it and learn something from it.


----------



## -EJ

I guess you missed this in another post...





The photo has been well used... Those tortoises are 100lb+ each.



Candy said:


> Stephanie Logan said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://harpoandfriends.homestead.com/Harpostory.html
> 
> People who want a Sulcata really do need to read Harpo's story at the link above. I thought it was funny and it was clear that the owner loved her reptile "project in the works", but the essay truly reveals the amount of time, space and food that are necessary to properly house these magnificent creatures!
> 
> Once again, thanks for the laugh, Maggie. Bob dragging his water dish over to his hay pile to wet it down...you really need to post some video of this character.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That story truly is wonderful. If anyone was thinking of buying one of these huge creatures they should definitely read this story first. Actually it kind of reminds me of Maggie's Bob except Bob is about 70 lbs so a bit bigger the Harpo was. I love to see people's Sulcatas on this site, but I have to admire them for raising them (when they're raised properly I mean). I love to see Bob and Dudley they are characters. Thanks for posting the story hopefully people read it and learn something from it.
Click to expand...


----------



## bettinge

I think another lure of Sulcata breeding is the large clutch size! I wonder how many people would buy Sully's if the law restricted the sale of them to only ones that are over 20 pounds.

When I decided to get a tortoise, I did lots of research on the adult size and enclosure requirements of different species. I finally chose Greeks and Hermanns because they fit what I could offer. If I lived in a warmer climate and had lots of property, I would have many Sulcatas......I thinlk they are awsome!


----------



## TylerStewart

bettinge said:


> I wonder how many people would buy Sully's if the law restricted the sale of them to only ones that are over 20 pounds.



Like almost everything the government does, that law wouldn't work. You're already not supposed to sell them under 4", yet it happens openly everywhere. Only a small handful of states do any enforcement of it, and if a 20 pound law was made, it would still be enforced by the same people enforcing the 4" law. 

I again agree with EJ on this, and I remain confused about where all the abused, mistreated, neglected etc sulcatas are. I'm in Las Vegas, and I know of none in any rescues here. They still routinely sell at local pet stores (here) for hundreds of dollars for big males, and I recently traded a spare 75lb male and a small 4" juvie for a root canal to a dentist that wanted a big tortoise (I owed him $780 after my insurance paid half). I am constantly told at shows by customers how happy they are with their 100lb lawnmowers, and how much joy they bring into their lives. I stand by my past statement that if rescues are complaining about sulcatas piling up, they are simply not trying to get rid of them. Plenty of people want them.

What's not to love?


----------



## Vegas_Leopard

I love Sulcata's, the end.


----------



## Yvonne G

TylerStewart said:


> I stand by my past statement that if rescues are complaining about sulcatas piling up, they are simply not trying to get rid of them. Plenty of people want them.



I'm sure its geographical. The area I live in, Central California, doesn't have that many tortoise-lovers, and once you've sold each of them a baby leopard, or adopted out all your sulcatas, there just aren't that many more folks here that want or can fit another tortoise into their lives. Seems to me that the American Tortoise Rescue had to stop taking in sulcatas because they had too many.

I practically had to give my baby leopards away at 2 for $50. And there are only 3 folks on my Sulcata list. Thankfully this was a pretty slow year for adoptions. I only took in one baby sulcata and didn't get in any larger ones. Whew!

Yvonne


----------



## -EJ

I'd of given you $100 for the two leopards.

It also depends on the standard you have to adopt out.



emysemys said:


> TylerStewart said:
> 
> 
> 
> I stand by my past statement that if rescues are complaining about sulcatas piling up, they are simply not trying to get rid of them. Plenty of people want them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure its geographical. The area I live in, Central California, doesn't have that many tortoise-lovers, and once you've sold each of them a baby leopard, or adopted out all your sulcatas, there just aren't that many more folks here that want or can fit another tortoise into their lives. Seems to me that the American Tortoise Rescue had to stop taking in sulcatas because they had too many.
> 
> I practically had to give my baby leopards away at 2 for $50. And there are only 3 folks on my Sulcata list. Thankfully this was a pretty slow year for adoptions. I only took in one baby sulcata and didn't get in any larger ones. Whew!
> 
> Yvonne
Click to expand...


----------



## Yvonne G

-EJ said:


> I'd of given you $100 for the two leopards.
> It also depends on the standard you have to adopt out.



Well, I'm pretty strict as far as safety for the tortoise goes, however if the yard isn't safe, I tell the people what they have to do to make it safe...fence the in-the-ground-pool or fence out the tortoise, fix the hole in the fence, provide a hiding place or a shelter...none of these are too much for the person to have to take care of. I'm only looking out for the tortoise's safety, not looking for a clean and perfect yard. In all the years I've been doing this, I've only failed two yards, and one of those was a veritable junk yard with no walking space between the wrecked cars and the rusted out kitchen appliances. The other one had a chain link fence all around and they didn't want to take precautions to keep the tortoise from pushing under.

I had about 30 leopards hatch from 4 females. I had no trouble selling the first 20 at $100 apiece, but couldn't find any takers after that. So I went online and lowered to $75 because of the shipping. Sold a few more. Finally had to go down to $50 apiece and sold a couple more. The last 4 went for 2 for $50! Even so, I made a bit of a profit overall to help defray some of the rescue's vet bills! Then I adopted out (free) all the males so no more baby worries!

Yvonne


----------



## Meg90

I think breeding sulcata is a bad idea. Its like breeding cats....like, if I got two kittens, let them grow up, and then have more kittens because I wanted to experience the miracle of life. Its a bad idea. Don't see unwanted torts in your area? Go on craigslist and type in tortoise. Misspell it if you like. Sometimes that helps.

People treat them like garbage because they don't "emote" the way dogs and cats do. The tort is "fine" or "happy" being fed frozen veggies for 6 mos and kept without UVB and then dumped when the owners get bored.

Why add to the problem just for kicks?


----------



## -EJ

I'm sorry... but the people who I know who have Sulcatas... adore them.

I'm talking about people who have no interest in tortoises in general.

Bottom line... your wrong.

Again... think of how many are sold and how many show up as 'adoptions'.



Meg90 said:


> I think breeding sulcata is a bad idea. Its like breeding cats....like, if I got two kittens, let them grow up, and then have more kittens because I wanted to experience the miracle of life. Its a bad idea. Don't see unwanted torts in your area? Go on craigslist and type in tortoise. Misspell it if you like. Sometimes that helps.
> 
> People treat them like garbage because they don't "emote" the way dogs and cats do. The tort is "fine" or "happy" being fed frozen veggies for 6 mos and kept without UVB and then dumped when the owners get bored.
> 
> Why add to the problem just for kicks?


----------



## Meg90

And again, think of how many just simply, die and are never offered the chance to have a real home?

I am not against the Sulcata Species. I love torts. I think sullys are beautiful, and someday, when I live in a nice warm climate, with a nice piece of land, I will have one. Or more.

But I do not think they should be so readily available to the general public. Backyard breeders just make it worse. The easier they are to obtain, the more of them will be tossed aside.


----------



## TylerStewart

Meg90 said:


> I think breeding sulcata is a bad idea. Its like breeding cats....like, if I got two kittens, let them grow up, and then have more kittens because I wanted to experience the miracle of life. Its a bad idea. Don't see unwanted torts in your area? Go on craigslist and type in tortoise. Misspell it if you like. Sometimes that helps.
> 
> People treat them like garbage because they don't "emote" the way dogs and cats do. The tort is "fine" or "happy" being fed frozen veggies for 6 mos and kept without UVB and then dumped when the owners get bored.
> 
> think of how many just simply, die and are never offered the chance to have a real home



One minor _(major)_ difference is that cats reproduce in a year, so the cat population gets out of control quickly. They are higher maintenance than a tortoise, and more costly (per month/year etc) to own than a tortoise. This contributes to cats being unwanted. Dogs are the same way. To me, my big sulcatas are some of the easier ones because they're happy and healthy eating grass. 

I would guess that a similar percentage of sulcatas die as babies as any other tortoise sold. So if 10% of sulcatas die in the first year, and 10% of redfoot tortoises die in the first year, should we also stop trying to produce redfoot tortoises?

For what it's worth, I confirmed this morning on Craigslist that there are no unwanted tortoises in the Las Vegas area.


----------



## Isa

TylerStewart said:


> For what it's worth, I confirmed this morning on Craigslist that there are no unwanted tortoises in the Las Vegas area.



Yes, but it does not say how many sulcatas live in the woods or in the streets because their owners were too lazy to sell them and it does not talk about the huge sulcatas who are abused and who lives in enclosures smaller than we can think of.


----------



## Yvonne G

TylerStewart said:


> One minor _(major)_ difference is that cats reproduce in a year, so the cat population gets out of control quickly.



I don't know the point you were trying to make with the cats comment, but an adult female sulcata will lay around 30 eggs in a clutch and she will nest three or four times a year. That would be way more sulcata babies in a year than one female cat can produce.

Yvonne


----------



## -EJ

Needless to say... Sulcatas are not a problem. Supply and demand will dictate how many are sold.

I've never come across a Sulcata in the woods or walking down the street although Herman (Ref Free Sulcata) was found walking down the street. I really do not think that was a case of neglect.


----------



## TylerStewart

emysemys said:


> I don't know the point you were trying to make with the cats comment, but an adult female sulcata will lay around 30 eggs in a clutch and she will nest three or four times a year. That would be way more sulcata babies in a year than one female cat can produce.
> 
> Yvonne



My point was that a pair of kittens, over the course of 10 years, will produce many more kittens than a pair of baby sulcatas over the same amount of time. The kittens would be multiplying yearly, and those kittens yearly. Nothing would happen with the sulcatas until the 10th year, give or take. The amount of cats (1000's), dogs (1,000's), and sulcatas (0) in shelters and rescues here in Vegas clearly back up this fact. 

Call me the bad guy, but in all my attempts, I've never had a female sulcata lay 30 eggs 3 or 4 times a year. And I have a lot of females


----------



## Stephanie Logan

_One minor (major) difference is that cats reproduce in a year, so the cat population gets out of control quickly. They are higher maintenance than a tortoise, and more costly (per month/year etc) to own than a tortoise. This contributes to cats being unwanted._ 

As a cat lover and owner of four cats, I have to say that cats are much cheaper and lower maintenance than the one tortoise we have had; at least, now that we are keeping the tortoise properly in a cage with space, substrate, lighting, humidity, and a varied diet with calcium and TNT supplements. A lot of equipment and habitat requirements compared to my cats, but I don't mind and am happy to do it.

I would think the diet and indoor care requirements for a Sulcata would be significantly more expensive than for a cat, and the outdoor requirements, the space and the strong deep fence and hide, etc, would also add to the overall cost.

AHHH! How do you guys highlight the quote from a previous post in your current post?! I hate being so computer-challenged!


----------



## Isa

-EJ said:


> Needless to say... Sulcatas are not a problem. Supply and demand will dictate how many are sold.
> 
> I've never come across a Sulcata in the woods or walking down the street although Herman (Ref Free Sulcata) was found walking down the street. I really do not think that was a case of neglect.



Well a friend of mine saw a huge tortoise on the highway near the woods, maybe it was a Sulcata but then again maybe not. And yes, I believe some people instead of selling their Sulcata's because they are getting too big will bring them in the woods or somewhere near the highway. Before when I said streets I was talking about the kind of streets in rural places where there are a lot of farms not the street in front of your house. The problem is some pet store or whatever will not tell the buyer the Sulcata will get huge so when they get big, some people are just iresponsable. I think it is sad because it is an amazing tortoise. Too bad my winters are sooo cold because I would want one for sure. Where I live, they sell sulcata, sometime during the winter the temps can go down to -40C. It is very cold, It must be very hard to keep a huge sulcata warm during a winter that cold.


----------



## Yvonne G

Stephanie Logan said:


> AHHH! How do you guys highlight the quote from a previous post in your current post?! I hate being so computer-challenged!



When you hit "reply" to a post, that person's post shows up in your reply box. If you want their whole post to be in your answer, you just leave it alone. If you only want a part or a sentence, then you delete everything you don't want, but you must leave the [quote.......quote] symbols at the beginning and the end of their post.

Yvonne


----------



## Stephanie Logan

Ah, the "Quote" symbols...of course it would have to be an easy answer. It usually is...

Thanks, Yvonne.


----------



## Yvonne G

Stephanie Logan said:


> Ah, the "Quote" symbols...of course it would have to be an easy answer. It usually is...
> 
> Thanks, Yvonne.



I neglected to mention, that you have to hit the "reply" button that is within the person's post that you want to reply to, NOT the "new reply" button that is at the top or at the bottom of the page.

YVonne


----------



## terryo

This was posted in the Fall news letter on Felice's World of Turtles. She is in Sacramento, CA .

On the adoption scene: If anyone bought baby Sulcatas at the recent reptile show, when it quickly grows large, poos and wees like a camel and takes out your fences and destroys whatever warm winter quarters you have provided because they do not hibernate and constantly chase you for food, please know that it is yours for life because there are NO homes available. At this writing, there are at least 8 of them on my 'waiting' list. Some are 100 pounds!! Someone described a Sulcata as follows: 'Take a large dogaloo, fill it with cement, put wheels on it and continually ram it into buildings.' Nice! Folks, please do NOT breed them. You may get a momentary thrill watching the eggs hatch, but it certainly isn't fair to the tortoises or the people who might end up with them for the next 75 years.


----------



## -EJ

This is stupidity at it's best. Send her my email ([email protected]) and I'll place them all in the central to southern Cal area.



terryo said:


> This was posted in the Fall news letter on Felice's World of Turtles. She is in Sacramento, CA .
> 
> On the adoption scene: If anyone bought baby Sulcatas at the recent reptile show, when it quickly grows large, poos and wees like a camel and takes out your fences and destroys whatever warm winter quarters you have provided because they do not hibernate and constantly chase you for food, please know that it is yours for life because there are NO homes available. At this writing, there are at least 8 of them on my 'waiting' list. Some are 100 pounds!! Someone described a Sulcata as follows: 'Take a large dogaloo, fill it with cement, put wheels on it and continually ram it into buildings.' Nice! Folks, please do NOT breed them. You may get a momentary thrill watching the eggs hatch, but it certainly isn't fair to the tortoises or the people who might end up with them for the next 75 years.


----------



## terryo

-EJ said:


> This is stupidity at it's best. Send her my email ([email protected]) and I'll place them all in the central to southern Cal area.
> 
> 
> 
> terryo said:
> 
> 
> 
> This was posted in the Fall news letter on Felice's World of Turtles. She is in Sacramento, CA .
> 
> On the adoption scene: If anyone bought baby Sulcatas at the recent reptile show, when it quickly grows large, poos and wees like a camel and takes out your fences and destroys whatever warm winter quarters you have provided because they do not hibernate and constantly chase you for food, please know that it is yours for life because there are NO homes available. At this writing, there are at least 8 of them on my 'waiting' list. Some are 100 pounds!! Someone described a Sulcata as follows: 'Take a large dogaloo, fill it with cement, put wheels on it and continually ram it into buildings.' Nice! Folks, please do NOT breed them. You may get a momentary thrill watching the eggs hatch, but it certainly isn't fair to the tortoises or the people who might end up with them for the next 75 years.
Click to expand...


Why don't YOU e-mail her and help her out Ed....
http://turtlebunker.com/


----------



## Laura

I took two in from her the last few years. She said I was crazy. But then again she donest have the space for them. So when you live on 8 acers and have a barn like we do.. it is easier. Not EASY, just doable. more so then most people. The heating is always an issue. The $$ is also. Not just for heating but material cost to build something they cant destroy! It can be done and done right, but it can also go very wrong... EDUCATION! is the Key!
Felice is an older lady who does most of what she does on her own. Be kind. If you can truely help her, then by all means do so!! Networking within groups and working TOGETHER is awsome. 
When I was building my enclosure and contacted a place in Southern Calif who said they needed homes, they stopped adopting out and doing rescues. They are now concentrating on Education and Conservation issues. Yvonne is also in Central Calif, and Im sure she could use some help occasionally as well! Got a list of people wanting? Be sure the rescues know! The one in the Bay Area of San Fran also needs homes for MANY.. Ed.. I think you are going to be REALLY busy!

I will post the Bay Areas contact info and current list in Adoptions.. GO EJ!!! ( not ED)


----------



## Candy

TylerStewart said:


> emysemys said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know the point you were trying to make with the cats comment, but an adult female sulcata will lay around 30 eggs in a clutch and she will nest three or four times a year. That would be way more sulcata babies in a year than one female cat can produce.
> 
> Yvonne
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point was that a pair of kittens, over the course of 10 years, will produce many more kittens than a pair of baby sulcatas over the same amount of time. The kittens would be multiplying yearly, and those kittens yearly. Nothing would happen with the sulcatas until the 10th year, give or take. The amount of cats (1000's), dogs (1,000's), and sulcatas (0) in shelters and rescues here in Vegas clearly back up this fact.
> 
> Call me the bad guy, but in all my attempts, I've never had a female sulcata lay 30 eggs 3 or 4 times a year. And I have a lot of females
Click to expand...


I agree with you on one point Tyler...that they will produce that many kittens if you have an irresponsible owner (or breeder). That's why I started this thread is because we're not talking about responsible owners (or breeders here) we're talking about people who try to make a profit at the animals expense. Now you yourself have people on this site who believe you are a reputable breeder so we're probably not talking about you, but how many more are out there who are not? At the reptile show alone I saw a good 300 Sulcata's for sale more then any other tortoise there. Are these breeders giving the best advice in the 15 minutes that it takes to sell one? What about the ones on here who I've seen selling Sulcata babies, are they even caring who there selling to or how these babies will be raised? I don't think so. I prefer people like Danny or Terry who sell their tortoises and then offer to give advice and even websites available so these people can take care of their tortoise properly. I think a lot of people do buy Sulcata's in the moment and that's not a good decision most of the time. Anyway that's just my take. I do know from meeting you that you do care about your tortoises and your wife and your son too. I know that you love reptiles from seeing you at the reptile show. It was nice to see that it's a family affair with you. 



-EJ said:


> This is stupidity at it's best. Send her my email ([email protected]) and I'll place them all in the central to southern Cal area.
> 
> 
> 
> terryo said:
> 
> 
> 
> This was posted in the Fall news letter on Felice's World of Turtles. She is in Sacramento, CA .
> 
> On the adoption scene: If anyone bought baby Sulcatas at the recent reptile show, when it quickly grows large, poos and wees like a camel and takes out your fences and destroys whatever warm winter quarters you have provided because they do not hibernate and constantly chase you for food, please know that it is yours for life because there are NO homes available. At this writing, there are at least 8 of them on my 'waiting' list. Some are 100 pounds!! Someone described a Sulcata as follows: 'Take a large dogaloo, fill it with cement, put wheels on it and continually ram it into buildings.' Nice! Folks, please do NOT breed them. You may get a momentary thrill watching the eggs hatch, but it certainly isn't fair to the tortoises or the people who might end up with them for the next 75 years.
Click to expand...

Do they not do all of the things that she stated? Why does that seem stupid? Maybe because she had some sarcasm in her writing, but that doesn't mean that she's not correct. Just because you might have a lot of space for your Sulcata's does not mean that most people do. 
I know that this is a species that you obviously enjoy and even seem to love, but that's not what we're posting about we're posting about whether irresponsible people are producing something that might be too much for most people to handle just for profit not because they want to keep this species going. I don't believe most of your breeders care that much when they're selling these.


----------



## terryo

Julie M. posted this today on the LIR group
I still have six here Sohni. Two are big guys, 60-80 pounds that we'll be shipping Delta hopefully next week. Two are about ten pounds that I just the homes I had for fell through but they won't be a problem if I have to keep them here, one is the terribly deformed sick one and a hatchling that I'm hanging onto because I can. I had two hatchlings and placed the other. I almost got two more in last week but luckily the fellow had a friend of his take them and we went over care so things will be changed for them and another today that I told them they need to change things so they will do that and try to hold on to him. This was a real big year for Sulcata's. I haven't gone through my records yet, but I think we had over 30 and about 15 out of state that I have helped or am still helping place. Once things settle down here I'll have time to update all my notes and get a final count.


----------



## -EJ

Why do people have horses or cows...

This is a pretty judgemental post.

Again... Sulcatas used to be rare. 



Candy said:


> This is a question that I've wanted to ask ever since I started reading threads and posts on this website. After what I saw today I'm going to go ahead and ask it. I thought some of you might be offended, but now it just comes down to right and wrong to me. Today my husband and I were headed to a farmers market, but I wanted to stop by a petstore first to look at some bird cages. After we looked I decided to see if they had any tortoises there and low and behold there were two big Sulcatas in this 6ft x 2ft enclosure (it was around that size we didn't measure it). One of the Sulcatas was around 50lbs and the other I would say was a good 35lbs. both males. There was some shedded stuff at the bottom of the enclosure and no water at all in there. I asked the girl that helped us with the cages where their water was and she said that they get it from the romaine lettuce that they eat. I told her that is not correct and they need water at all times and even to soak in. She seemed surprised. From being on this forum I knew I had to ask for the owner of this place and they were nice and wrote it down for me. I came home and printed out a care sheet and took it back to her and am sending one to the owner tomorrow. She was very nice actually and I also gave her this website and told her that when she sold any she should hand out one of these caresheets and give them this address. She said it was a good idea. Now is there anything to be done about the enclosure that they're being kept in should I contact the SPCA on that? The thing is that they also had about 5 or 6 babies in a tank to sell too. Why are people breeding something so big? I know that a lot of them go to rescues. I just think that is not a very responsible thing to do since these creatures grow to be more than 100lbs and most people don't have the proper space for them. Hopefully I will get some good responses on this and someone can make me understand why people would do this for a living or a hobby.


----------



## Yvonne G

-EJ said:


> Why do people have horses or cows...
> This is a pretty judgemental post.
> Again... Sulcatas used to be rare.



But that's the whole point, Ed. If you want a horse and you live in an apartment or in a house in the city on a 50x100 foot lot, you just have to go without getting the horse of your dreams. But the person who lives in an apartment goes ahead and gets the sulcata of their dreams and the poor animal suffers for it.

Yvonne


----------



## -EJ

To put it in perspective... how many Sulcatas are produced a year... how many are a problem?

Many people who buy a Sulcata when they are living in an apt... move on... to a house... with a yard.

Again... a very judgemental point of view.



emysemys said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do people have horses or cows...
> This is a pretty judgemental post.
> Again... Sulcatas used to be rare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But that's the whole point, Ed. If you want a horse and you live in an apartment or in a house in the city on a 50x100 foot lot, you just have to go without getting the horse of your dreams. But the person who lives in an apartment goes ahead and gets the sulcata of their dreams and the poor animal suffers for it.
> 
> Yvonne
Click to expand...


----------



## Meg90

You keep saying how many end up in shelters?

And we all know the answer: NOT many. 

But why is that? Because people let them loose, or frankly, kill them with bad care. How hard is it to kill a young tortoise? Not hard. Even with complete and proper care, some still perish. I cant imagine the death rate of hatchling sulcata who's owners don't know, and could care less what the proper care is.

The bottom line, is sulcata are cheap. Cheap cheap cheap. I've seen them as low as 40$. At that price, its a throw away pet. Just like an Ig. Get em while they are cute, for cheap, and when they become a nuisance, OH WELL. It was only 40$.

I've seen it over and over and over again. WC Russians are more expensive than little CB sulcata.


----------



## Laura

I think a lot more die at the hands of the naive or un caring then anyone knows or relalizes.. or even cares.. Doesnt make it right. 
Too bad people wouldnt look at them like a horse.. and have a boarding facility to have them at and PAY for the care.. but it will never happen..


----------



## Candy

I would like to ask Ed if they're rare anymore? The answer to that question is no they are not they are very popular as Oh sooooo cute little tortoises that grow up to be huge. Most people take a while to get from an apt. to a house Ed sorry.


----------



## TylerStewart

As a general request to everyone against breeding them, I would like to know a realistic solution to the problem. You're never going to get everyone to stop breeing them. If you're able to convince a few breeders to stop, there are hundreds more people that are still going to be producing them. Should the lowest price retail vendors be the target of your campaign? The people that sell them as a good investment? The people that produce the most quantity are people you've surely never heard of, and nothing is going to stop them.


----------



## Meg90

This wasn't a debate to brain storm ideas HOW to stop them.

It was a debate on WHY people do it at all.

I think we all know that we're not going to stop those big producers from hatching out thousands of little sullys to make a quick buck.

But I was stunned that we still have people on this forum that think is OK to keep saturating an already saturated marker with young sulcata, when so many need homes, and so many are already in bad homes being mistreated.


----------



## TylerStewart

Well, I won't speak for everyone else that sells them, but I sell them because that's the species that many people want. People love the species and people love the size. I have well over a dozen _species_ and sulcatas are probably my favorite - from the standpoint of enjoying a tortoise that I can interact with. The fact that an animal here and there end up in rescues, and a few outspoken people make it sound like there's a huge overpopulation of them with no homes is inaccurate.


----------



## chadk

Here in WA, the only area i'm familiar with, it is hard to find them. I've been watching CL and rescues closely for the last year and found 2 I could rescue, but had lots of competition from others who wanted them. Then had another that really NEEDED to be rescued, but he was trying to sell it. Had him convinced to give it to me, but at the last minute he wanted money as he suddenly had another buyer interested.... But that little Thunder needed some TLC or he would probably die. So I took him. So with much searching this year, I was able to get 3. I've seen a few offered for sale - usually over a hundred dollars - usually more if you take the supplies. Recently some babies were listed for 75, but that is as low as I've seen.

I wonder if everyone stopped breeding, would the black market on the WC become more active?


----------



## Yvonne G

I'm sure its regional. The folks in WA who don't do it right, probably end up killing them rather than giving them to a rescue. 

Here in Central Calif, where the weather is really good for eight or nine months out of the year, there are many more throw away tortoises that end up in the rescues. Its usually the larger ones that are starting to cause trouble at home that people get rid of, but occasionally I'll get a smaller one too.

And in Southern Calif. The American Tortoise Rescue had to quit taking in sulcatas because they were starting to get over run with them.

We're never going to get people to stop breeding them, because there is a market for them. Take a look at this site:

http://www.tigerhomes.org/animal/egg-laying-sulcata-tortoises.cfm

He doesn't say what he does with all the babies.

Yvonne


----------



## chadk

It is kinda interesting that 2 of my 3 were imported from other states and eventually the owners could not longer care for them here (apartments). One came from Cali and the other from Nevada (or Utah, ...I forget).


----------



## katesgoey

I don't think the debate should be limited to WHY because I think that answers are obvious and rather pointlessly frustrating without contemplating Who, What, When, and Hows. 

I think Laura's on to something - let's open a boarding facility for Sulcatas owners who live in the City. Doubt anyone would pay much for it and I wonder how often they would visit their boarders?

Chad has a good point about the black market if breeding were too limited.

Unfortunately there will always be sulcatas and other animals who need help from someone knowledgeable about their care because of those who are unknowledgeable or just don't care. For centuries there have been unwanted, neglected and abused children in the world while millions more are born daily - unfortunately, that will never end either. I think its more productive to focus on how to help care for those in need and venting is a release but not a solution.


----------



## terryo

posted today by J.M. 

Is that guy still so disillusioned that he thinks the overpopulation 
> of Sulcata tortoises is not a problem here in the states? 
> Unfortunately that's how most breeders are, they turn a blind eye to 
> the problem because they make a few bucks. Sad that they have no 
> regard for the animals future that they are breeding. Idiots! The Lot 
> f them!
>
> I've been lucky so far, but finding good homes is hard. I get quite a 
> few that seem to be collectors and don't care how many they take in or 
> what gender and I won't adopt to them. I'm real picky about where the 
> tortoises go so that makes it a bit harder to place them, but I want 
> to do my best to make sure they go to good homes where they are not 
> going to be bred and they will hopefully be long time homes. Because 
> they live so long I can't expect them to be permanent homes, but at 
> least for as long as the keepers can care for them.
>
> It really helps that others have referred us to those looking for 
> tortoises and others have placed our ad, the Sulcata Challenge, in 
> Craiglist.org in other states. That reminds me, can somebody post that 
> down in Modesto, CA area? Someone is selling them as a garden 
> tortoise. Yikes! Yeah, they'll take care of your garden all right!
>


----------



## katesgoey

Sorry for my ignorance Terry, but who is J.M. and where was this "posted today?" Let J.M. know that I think that poster also owns or knows the owner of a pet shop that moved out of the area. Not sure but the terms used are familiar to ones I heard uttered at that store before it moved.


----------



## Kadaan

I don't believe that breeding Sulcatas is wrong. There are definitely misconceptions by the general public about them though. I'd guess that 3/4 of the hatchlings for sale at the NARBC in Anaheim last month were Sulcatas, ranging from $50-100, definitely the cheapest type there.

What this whole debate/argument seems to revolve around is responsibility: How much responsibility should be placed on the breeder for the welfare of the tortoises they sell?

I think the most we can reasonably expect from a breeder is that they do their part in educating buyers about the needs of their new pet. If the breeder checks and double-checks that the buyer is aware of how large Sulcatas grow, how much space they require, that they need a place to live indoors if it gets too cold where they live, that they eat and poop a lot, and about diet/UVB/humidity... then I don't believe the breeder should have any responsibility past that.

I realize it's horrible to have pets die young due to improper care or being released into the wild (although I'd bet Sulcatas have no higher percentage of fatalities/releases than some other pets. I bet fish are exponentially worse.) The biggest problem are the few breeders who mass-produce Sulcatas to third party vendors (like pet stores) who fail to properly educate customers on what kind of requirements their Sulcatas have. I've seen several stories here on the forum of owners who were told by the pet store/vendor/word of mouth that their Sulcata would take "many years" to get big. I even saw a YouTube video last night of someone saying Greeks were great indoor pets because they only grow to 6-7" max as adults.

The real 'problem' isn't breeders directly, it's the lack of education provided for new owners. Whether this is a pet store or simply breeders who aren't as concerned with the care of the torts as Tyler and Marla are, lumping breeders all into one group and saying that breeding should stop is too broad and doesn't address the real issue that plagues the entire pet industry (remember when Hermit Crabs were all the rage and there were Hermit Crab booths in nearly every major mall? Or how about people who keep goldfish or Bettas in tiny <1 gallon tanks/bowls?  )


----------



## Millerlite

if your going to get a horse you should know you need a ranch or a lot of yard space, which a lot of people do know. If your going to get a sulcata they should know they need a lot of yard space, i blame the people buying the tortoises not the sellers, with the internet and stuff they can easily look it up, but they are lazy. If no one bought the tortoise, then breeders would have a bunch of tortoises and stop breeding or start killing eggs because they are over populated with them. like EJ said, Supply and Demand .


----------



## Yvonne G

katesgoey said:


> Sorry for my ignorance Terry, but who is J.M. and where was this "posted today?" Let J.M. know that I think that poster also owns or knows the owner of a pet shop that moved out of the area. Not sure but the terms used are familiar to ones I heard uttered at that store before it moved.



I believe she's talking about Julie McGuire of the Turtle Rescue of Long Island. Julie has her own web site, her own YAHOOgroup and is moderator of the African Tortoise YAHOOgroup. She is also the author of the "the sulcata challenge" article that we re-post here all the time.

Yvonne


----------



## terryo

I'm sorry Sandy...I should have put her name. I asked her if I could cross post and she said yes. It is Julie Maguire from the Turtle Rescue of Long Island. Read the whole thread.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/TurtleRescueLongIsland/?yguid=46465065
http://www.turtlerescues.org/index.htm


----------



## -EJ

It can take many years for them to reach a large size... My speedy took over 7 years to reach 5 lbs.




Kadaan said:


> I don't believe that breeding Sulcatas is wrong. There are definitely misconceptions by the general public about them though. I'd guess that 3/4 of the hatchlings for sale at the NARBC in Anaheim last month were Sulcatas, ranging from $50-100, definitely the cheapest type there.
> 
> What this whole debate/argument seems to revolve around is responsibility: How much responsibility should be placed on the breeder for the welfare of the tortoises they sell?
> 
> I think the most we can reasonably expect from a breeder is that they do their part in educating buyers about the needs of their new pet. If the breeder checks and double-checks that the buyer is aware of how large Sulcatas grow, how much space they require, that they need a place to live indoors if it gets too cold where they live, that they eat and poop a lot, and about diet/UVB/humidity... then I don't believe the breeder should have any responsibility past that.
> 
> I realize it's horrible to have pets die young due to improper care or being released into the wild (although I'd bet Sulcatas have no higher percentage of fatalities/releases than some other pets. I bet fish are exponentially worse.) The biggest problem are the few breeders who mass-produce Sulcatas to third party vendors (like pet stores) who fail to properly educate customers on what kind of requirements their Sulcatas have. I've seen several stories here on the forum of owners who were told by the pet store/vendor/word of mouth that their Sulcata would take "many years" to get big. I even saw a YouTube video last night of someone saying Greeks were great indoor pets because they only grow to 6-7" max as adults.
> 
> The real 'problem' isn't breeders directly, it's the lack of education provided for new owners. Whether this is a pet store or simply breeders who aren't as concerned with the care of the torts as Tyler and Marla are, lumping breeders all into one group and saying that breeding should stop is too broad and doesn't address the real issue that plagues the entire pet industry (remember when Hermit Crabs were all the rage and there were Hermit Crab booths in nearly every major mall? Or how about people who keep goldfish or Bettas in tiny <1 gallon tanks/bowls?  )


----------



## katesgoey

terryo said:


> I'm sorry Sandy...I should have put her name. I asked her if I could cross post and she said yes. It is Julie Maguire from the Turtle Rescue of Long Island. Read the whole thread.
> 
> http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/TurtleRescueLongIsland/?yguid=46465065
> http://www.turtlerescues.org/index.htm



No worries, Terry. I thought you might have meant Julie....I'm on the yahoo African Tortoise site - but just wasn't sure. Thanks for clarifying


----------



## Candy

Interesting that out of 65 posts what we've come up with is supply and demand. Not a very convincing argument. I think if you're a responsible breeder you are probably O.K., but the thing is that there's so many more who are not. I was thinking today about show dog breeders and how they breed and sell their animals. They are very picky on who gets their dogs and they offer if anything goes wrong they will take them back. I wonder if Sulcata breeders would think about doing this before they breed them. Probably not because lets face it they live a lot longer then a dog does and they're much harder to take care of and they need a lot more space. I don't think just because you have people who want them is a good enough reason to produce more of them. There's enough out there just trying to make a buck and that's sad for the tortoise. Just because "you love the species" isn't enough reason to mass produce them. I mean I love my Chocolate Labrador, but I'm not going to breed her over and over again. It's not like Sulcata's are becoming extinct are they?


----------



## TylerStewart

Candy said:


> Interesting that out of 65 posts what we've come up with is supply and demand. Not a very convincing argument. I think if you're a responsible breeder you are probably O.K., but the thing is that there's so many more who are not. I was thinking today about show dog breeders and how they breed and sell their animals. They are very picky on who gets their dogs and they offer if anything goes wrong they will take them back. I wonder if Sulcata breeders would think about doing this before they breed them. Probably not because lets face it they live a lot longer then a dog does and they're much harder to take care of and they need a lot more space. I don't think just because you have people who want them is a good enough reason to produce more of them. There's enough out there just trying to make a buck and that's sad for the tortoise. Just because "you love the species" isn't enough reason to mass produce them. I mean I love my Chocolate Labrador, but I'm not going to breed her over and over again. It's not like Sulcata's are becoming extinct are they?



But it's not like dogs are becoming extint either.... People still breed dogs because people want pet dogs. Sure there are some that do it with bad (monetary) intentions, there is with anything. I do love the species, but I don't mass produce sulcatas. I don't produce enough of them to keep up with what people ask me for. My tortoises come with care information and a phone number. Rather than everyone ranting about the (non-existant) overpopulation problem, I again ask for some ideas about how best to tackle this issue at hand.


----------



## Candy

I know Tyler it's not you that I'm speaking about. I only wish that most of the breeders out there were more like you. I saw your family and it's very obvious that you're all involved in these reptiles and that your passing it on to your son. That's the kind of breeder that people should want breeding these big guys not the ones just trying to make a buck. About the dogs though, LA county has done something to help with the breeding of the dogs. You now have to spay or neuter your animal before you register them. I know there's holes in that too, but at least they're trying. If people get the word out (just like buying dogs from pet stores that come from puppy mills, that's taken a long time to do also) about home much work these are to take care of and how big they get and it's not just about how cute or how cheap you can buy them for then that should help people make the right decision. Sites like this one where people actually own them and can share their experiences with others about which tortoise might be the best for them and their family's helps also.


----------



## Jacqui

Candy said:


> About the dogs though, LA county has done something to help with the breeding of the dogs. You now have to spay or neuter your animal before you register them.



What do you mean by "registering" them? Like only spay/neutered dogs can be licensed? What about folks who believe that is morally, ethically, and even health wise wrong to have them "fixed", but also won't allow them to reproduce?

Sorry about taking this little side step off subject, but I am curious.


----------



## Yvonne G

Its the same way here in Fresno County. But if you have purebred dogs and breed them you can get some sort of permit to do so, and still register your dogs. Also, if you advertise puppies for sale in the newspaper, you have to show that your dog is registered. Problem with all this is Joe Blow and Susie Cream Cheese down the street who have intact male dogs and un-spayed female dogs that run loose in the neighborhoos, breeding and having puppies two or three times a year. They don't get a license for the dogs and never get caught. And these are the types of people that the laws were made for in the first place.

Yvonne


----------



## katesgoey

emysemys said:


> Its the same way here in Fresno County. But if you have purebred dogs and breed them you can get some sort of permit to do so, and still register your dogs. Also, if you advertise puppies for sale in the newspaper, you have to show that your dog is registered. Problem with all this is Joe Blow and Susie Cream Cheese down the street who have intact male dogs and un-spayed female dogs that run loose in the neighborhoos, breeding and having puppies two or three times a year. They don't get a license for the dogs and never get caught. And these are the types of people that the laws were made for in the first place.
> 
> Yvonne



We have the same restrictions and problem here with those who fly under the radar (Joe Blow and Susie Cream Cheese LOL). Meanwhile those with purebred dogs have to pay more to the county, then charge more for their puppies, so those in a lower income bracket can't afford them or their care - even those who would be a great family or parent to a new pup. So they turn to Joe Blow who thought it would be great if his and Ms. Cream Cheese's dogs mated...voila! cheap puppies 
I think education is better than regulation.


----------



## Laura

Joe and Susies dogs are most likely Pit bulls or mixes of such, so that is all that ia available anymore. Go to any shelter and see what they have. .. say goodbye to the majority.. 
And for those people who dont believe in neutering.. they will pay higher lic fees, impund and release fees and thier dogs with have a much higher incidence of cancer. it is thier choice, and many times, others and thier animals, pay the price. What is the most popular gender of dog in the shelters? Intact males, why? they are out looking for the females the smell in heat.. who pays for shelters? Tax payers----Domino effect...ok,, now back to torts..


----------



## -EJ

I'm sorry... what's this got to do with the topic??????

Believe it or not there is a connection...

Bunny huggers... 

I guess that's not a bad thing but the idea of ramming it down the general populations throat... that causes friction and with enough friction the machine... siezes... stops... comes to a halt.

I've been fighting this forever... attitude. The extremists on both ends but heads to prove who is 'right' and there really is not a right answer.

Personally... I think too many Sulcatas is a good thing... What I'd like to see... is too many Stars, Radiata, Egyptians, Angulata... and a few others.

Has anyone noticed the herps coming out of Slovenia? They are breeding Hermanns, Marginateds and Greeks by the hundreds.

You can now find Marginateds for $100 for hatchlings... that was unheard of years ago...

Stars are getting there... Leopards...

Watch out when the key to Aldabras is found...

Is that a bad thing.



Laura said:


> Joe and Susies dogs are most likely Pit bulls or mixes of such, so that is all that ia available anymore. Go to any shelter and see what they have. .. say goodbye to the majority..
> And for those people who dont believe in neutering.. they will pay higher lic fees, impund and release fees and thier dogs with have a much higher incidence of cancer. it is thier choice, and many times, others and thier animals, pay the price. What is the most popular gender of dog in the shelters? Intact males, why? they are out looking for the females the smell in heat.. who pays for shelters? Tax payers----Domino effect...ok,, now back to torts..


----------



## Candy

Jacqui said:


> Candy said:
> 
> 
> 
> About the dogs though, LA county has done something to help with the breeding of the dogs. You now have to spay or neuter your animal before you register them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by "registering" them? Like only spay/neutered dogs can be licensed? What about folks who believe that is morally, ethically, and even health wise wrong to have them "fixed", but also won't allow them to reproduce?
> 
> Sorry about taking this little side step off subject, but I am curious.
Click to expand...


Actually Jacqui I'm one of those people. I had spayed and neutered my poodle and my Labrador the first time around and this time I'm doing things differently. I don't agree in the health reasoning of fixing them. It's just the irresponsible people end up making the responsible ones pay.


----------



## reptylefreek

I think at some point every type of animal is said to be over produced and every one complains about animal neglect. But I agree that they are not a problem. There are almost never any on craigslist here in seattle and no one I know owns one around here. I personally would not breed because I am so picky I would never find homes for them. I think that if your a concerned animal owner you should be more worried about cats and dogs then any other animal. They might be the most popular pet and lots af people take excellent care of them, but there are also so many homeless ones, EVERYWHERE. I also think too many of a miracle like sulcatas is a good thing. And I would also like to see more exotics. If all of us tort freaks would just try to keep people informed it would help, if anything. All you people who happen upon a pet store and see a baby sulcata on weird substrate and eating wrong food, and you go in and talk to the employees about it, you've already helped. Thats really all you can do.


----------



## -EJ

reading the last post... I know there are tons of tortoise who would love a free Sulcata or any other tortoise...


----------



## reptylefreek

I would love some EJ... have any to spare? Like your beautiful Aldabra? LOL


----------



## -EJ

I have all you want... for free...

but... there is an adoption fee of $3000.... no... $4000 each.

ummm... thanks. I love them also. They are work though.

BTW... what are you doing up a 3am??????



reptylefreek said:


> I would love some EJ... have any to spare? Like your beautiful Aldabra? LOL


----------



## reptylefreek

Its not quite 3 here.. been lately staying up that late cuz I dont work till late the next day. I start at like 5pm
Plus I'm a night owl


----------



## jhaparth2006

Hello,
I am from India.And i have a very interesting point here.In India,having tortoises at home is illegal.Its a huge fine and jail as punishment.Being curious about wildlife.I am quiet involved in breeding and petting activities though illegal as per the law.I have seen pet stores having tortoises in such dirty conditions that you wouldn't have seen anywhere.And most of them sold are not in a healthy conditions.They will cost about 30US$ to 60US$ as per the size.The point i have is,what if having pet tortoises and turtles is made legal?Even now breeding is done at illegal bases,with fithy and dirty conditions.So if the goverment makes it legal,like only authorized people are allowed to breed and sell them,these sales can be done at a better level,atleast it wont introduce unhealthy animals into pet trade!I saw on TV that all tortoises which are sold are injected with a microchip.Why cant they do it here?Only captive bred specimens for sale!Thats it!The condition here is so poor that even a UVB light is not available!Please do reply on this.Am i right in my point of view?Should i take these points to a higher level in the goverment?


----------



## reptylefreek

We have laws here in the US that prohibit the sale of turtles under three inches unless its for "scientific purposes". But I have never heard of a person getting in trouble for this. Also we have laws for protected species, I owned an American Alligator, ordered her from online and carried her around all the time. I wasn't aware of the law until I started asking questions. These laws would be very hard to enforce, on top of that there is a grandfather clause. Any one who owns a turtle or tort before this said law would have to still be aloud to keep them. It would get so complicated. Plus I dont really ever se unhealthy animals in the pet trade. Every so often you hear of one or two people who get a parasite infected tort from petsmart, but here in WA stores are watched closely. Plus if petsmart has this horrible wrap why are people still shopping there. Any who, got off topic, it just wouldn't work here. If your rules are already that strict, start reporting people who dont care for their animals properly.


----------



## chairman

I think one element of the debate that is missing here is how much better it is to have sulcatas overbred in captivity than it is to have them harvested from the wild. Obviously neither are optimal, but captive breeding is proabably preferable. I don't know the statistics, but I would imagine that the fatality rates for captive bred sulcatas that are mistreated by uninformed folks has to be lower than the fatality rates of those poor torts that get crammed in boxes and shipped on the slow boat from China (ok, Africa, but still). As someone who keeps tortoises that are rarely available captive bred, I would see an overbreeding problem as a blessing. It saddens me to think that the journey my torts took to get to me started off by hanging on a string by one leg in a street market, then getting shoved into burlap sacks, crated with hundreds of other tortoises with no food or water and managing to survive getting crushed to death all while having to breath in the stench of death and feces. My personal opinion, I would rather have a bunch of irresponsible backyard breeders who accidentally eliminate the need for importation because they think it is amusing to watch their tortoises reproduce.


----------



## TheACO731

reptylefreek said:


> We have laws here in the US that prohibit the sale of turtles under three inches unless its for "scientific purposes"




Interesting fact! This law was only enacted in the U.S. for one reason, in the 70's there was a wide spread break out of salmonella in children. It was thought that if a turtle was over 3", a child would be less likely to place it in his or her mouth. The law had nothing to do with the protection of the species at all!. Last I heard the law is getting close to being repealed.


----------



## Yvonne G

Actually it is 4", but who's counting.


----------



## Candy

TheACO731 said:


> reptylefreek said:
> 
> 
> 
> We have laws here in the US that prohibit the sale of turtles under three inches unless its for "scientific purposes"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting fact! This law was only enacted in the U.S. for one reason, in the 70's there was a wide spread break out of salmonella in children. It was thought that if a turtle was over 3", a child would be less likely to place it in his or her mouth. The law had nothing to do with the protection of the species at all!. Last I heard the law is getting close to being repealed.
Click to expand...

I have been hearing this quote often and would love someone to tell me about it, "Cannot be sold only for scientific purposes". What does that really mean. What do they do with a tortoise that would be bought for scientific purpose?


----------



## Yvonne G

Here's an excerpt from the Federal law concerning turtles less than 4":

(d) Exceptions. The provisions of this section are not applicable to:

(1) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs for bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibitional purposes, other than use as pets.
(2) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs not in connection with a business.
(3) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and turtle eggs intended for export only, provided that the outside of the shipping package is conspicuously labeled "for export only."
(4) Marine turtles excluded from this regulation under the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section and eggs of such turtles.

So, in #1 we see that it is ok to sell a smaller turtle for BONA FIDE scientific, educational or exhibitional purposes...just not for pet.

And in #2 we see that if you aren't connected with a business, its quite ok to sell them or distribute them.


----------



## Candy

But I still would like to know what they do scientifically with them if anything? But then again maybe I don't want to know because my family always tells me that I should belong to Peta.


----------



## redreatta

you wanna talk about upset.....i went to a local petstore to see if they had some seed for sale and when i get to the bak of the store i find 11 adult sulcatas in a wooden cage about the size of a large bookcase, they were all scrunched together no room to move. the sign read NOT FOR SALE. they were for breeding only. i felt so bad for these guys. just makes me wanna hurl. the person in the store said the owner was the (info god on sulcatas) all of them had bone problems. there backs were all sunken in, 

I was also asking for info on the beautiful torts and the person in the store gave me all bad info. needless to say i will never buy anything from (the store beside old toys r us on morse rd in columbus ohio


----------



## -EJ

There's a huge chunk of information missing from this story.



redreatta said:


> you wanna talk about upset.....i went to a local petstore to see if they had some seed for sale and when i get to the bak of the store i find 11 adult sulcatas in a wooden cage about the size of a large bookcase, they were all scrunched together no room to move. the sign read NOT FOR SALE. they were for breeding only. i felt so bad for these guys. just makes me wanna hurl. the person in the store said the owner was the (info god on sulcatas) all of them had bone problems. there backs were all sunken in,
> 
> I was also asking for info on the beautiful torts and the person in the store gave me all bad info. needless to say i will never buy anything from (the store beside old toys r us on morse rd in columbus ohio


----------



## Meg90

What is missing Ed? The fact that those store keepers were trying to breed animals that were obviously NOT adult sized, and also riddled with MBD? Or that they had all the wrong information and were passing that on to potential owners?

Somehow people always have a fact that supports their argument, but when presented with something that doesn't agree, they want to dismiss right away.


----------



## TheACO731

I was thinking about the amount of sulcta hatchlings that I see in local stores for sale and how many full grown sulcatas I see or hear about in my area... I would guess the survival rate is about 7% at most. Anyone else have similar observations?


----------



## Candy

-EJ said:


> There's a huge chunk of information missing from this story.
> 
> 
> 
> redreatta said:
> 
> 
> 
> you wanna talk about upset.....i went to a local petstore to see if they had some seed for sale and when i get to the bak of the store i find 11 adult sulcatas in a wooden cage about the size of a large bookcase, they were all scrunched together no room to move. the sign read NOT FOR SALE. they were for breeding only. i felt so bad for these guys. just makes me wanna hurl. the person in the store said the owner was the (info god on sulcatas) all of them had bone problems. there backs were all sunken in,
> 
> I was also asking for info on the beautiful torts and the person in the store gave me all bad info. needless to say i will never buy anything from (the store beside old toys r us on morse rd in columbus ohio
Click to expand...


Would you like to fill in what is missing for us so we can actually know what you're talking about? I'm wondering why you don't ever finish anything that you comment on. Is it because you don't really know what the problem is?


----------



## reptylefreek

Hey what about the happy stories??? We all talk about the worst we've seen and all these horrible owners... what about the petstores and breeders that do a very good job. I only very rarely hear some one take pride in a home town pet store. I cant imagine its because there are none out there. Its because people seem to naturally only see something when its bad. Just like how you boss never prides you on good work and only tells you what your doing wrong. The guy I got my sulcata from still answers my emails and gives me advice when I truely need it. And he still breeds to this day with no complaints on the site he sells them on. These STUPID MORONIC people who treat animals like s**t ruin it for the rest of them that spend every last minute of their lives worried about the well being of the animals they are selling.


----------



## -EJ

That's not for me to comment because I wasn't there and the individual making the observation doesn't seem to have all the facts and also seems to be taking the observation out of context.



Candy said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a huge chunk of information missing from this story.
> 
> 
> 
> redreatta said:
> 
> 
> 
> you wanna talk about upset.....i went to a local petstore to see if they had some seed for sale and when i get to the bak of the store i find 11 adult sulcatas in a wooden cage about the size of a large bookcase, they were all scrunched together no room to move. the sign read NOT FOR SALE. they were for breeding only. i felt so bad for these guys. just makes me wanna hurl. the person in the store said the owner was the (info god on sulcatas) all of them had bone problems. there backs were all sunken in,
> 
> I was also asking for info on the beautiful torts and the person in the store gave me all bad info. needless to say i will never buy anything from (the store beside old toys r us on morse rd in columbus ohio
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Would you like to fill in what is missing for us so we can actually know what you're talking about? I'm wondering why you don't ever finish anything that you comment on. Is it because you don't really know what the problem is?
Click to expand...


----------



## redreatta

ok you guys lost me,lol who wants to know what?


----------



## Stephanie Logan

-EJ said:


> That's not for me to comment because I wasn't there and the individual making the observation doesn't seem to have all the facts and also seems to be taking the observation out of context.
> 
> 
> 
> Candy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a huge chunk of information missing from this story.
> 
> 
> 
> redreatta said:
> 
> 
> 
> you wanna talk about upset.....i went to a local petstore to see if they had some seed for sale and when i get to the bak of the store i find 11 adult sulcatas in a wooden cage about the size of a large bookcase, they were all scrunched together no room to move. the sign read NOT FOR SALE. they were for breeding only. i felt so bad for these guys. just makes me wanna hurl. the person in the store said the owner was the (info god on sulcatas) all of them had bone problems. there backs were all sunken in,
> 
> I was also asking for info on the beautiful torts and the person in the store gave me all bad info. needless to say i will never buy anything from (the store beside old toys r us on morse rd in columbus ohio
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Would you like to fill in what is missing for us so we can actually know what you're talking about? I'm wondering why you don't ever finish anything that you comment on. Is it because you don't really know what the problem is?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


EJ, it does become very tiresome when you hijack a thread with an arcane or provocative accusation and when asked to clarify your position, you respond with an equally nonsensical sidestepping of both your original comment and the clarification request.

Let me help you out: Redreatta was upset by the sight of a group of Sulcatas kept in a tiny cage "for breeding purposes" and severely pryramided, indicating astonishingly poor husbandry bordering on animal cruelty.

So, what you need to explain is your claim that "the individual making the observation doesn't seem to have all the facts and also seems to be taking the observation out of context."

*What facts are you missing?

What context are you spectating from?*


----------



## -EJ

The 'facts' I'm missing are a photo of the situation and why those animals are in that situation.

Pretty simple.



Stephanie Logan said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's not for me to comment because I wasn't there and the individual making the observation doesn't seem to have all the facts and also seems to be taking the observation out of context.
> 
> 
> 
> Candy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a huge chunk of information missing from this story.
> 
> 
> 
> redreatta said:
> 
> 
> 
> you wanna talk about upset.....i went to a local petstore to see if they had some seed for sale and when i get to the bak of the store i find 11 adult sulcatas in a wooden cage about the size of a large bookcase, they were all scrunched together no room to move. the sign read NOT FOR SALE. they were for breeding only. i felt so bad for these guys. just makes me wanna hurl. the person in the store said the owner was the (info god on sulcatas) all of them had bone problems. there backs were all sunken in,
> 
> I was also asking for info on the beautiful torts and the person in the store gave me all bad info. needless to say i will never buy anything from (the store beside old toys r us on morse rd in columbus ohio
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Would you like to fill in what is missing for us so we can actually know what you're talking about? I'm wondering why you don't ever finish anything that you comment on. Is it because you don't really know what the problem is?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> EJ, it does become very tiresome when you hijack a thread with an arcane or provocative accusation and when asked to clarify your position, you respond with an equally nonsensical sidestepping of both your original comment and the clarification request.
> 
> Let me help you out: Redreatta was upset by the sight of a group of Sulcatas kept in a tiny cage "for breeding purposes" and severely pryramided, indicating astonishingly poor husbandry bordering on animal cruelty.
> 
> So, what you need to explain is your claim that "the individual making the observation doesn't seem to have all the facts and also seems to be taking the observation out of context."
> 
> *What facts are you missing?
> 
> What context are you spectating from?*
Click to expand...


----------



## Candy

Their in that situation due to money and sales of Sulcata's. Cute little Sulcata's that people buy because they're cheap and cute. 

Pretty simple.


----------



## -EJ

Anyone who has a clule as to breeding tortoises knows the situation described is not probable.



Candy said:


> Their in that situation due to money and sales of Sulcata's. Cute little Sulcata's that people buy because they're cheap and cute.
> 
> Pretty simple.


----------



## redreatta

the problem lies there.....i dont believe they know how to breed. i wish i could have taken a picture for you. but the place is a 45 min drive away for me and the thought of going back there makes my tummy hurt.


----------



## Stephanie Logan

"The 'facts' I'm missing are a photo of the situation and why those animals are in that situation.

Pretty simple."

*Quibble: a use of ambiguous or irrelevant language to evade a point at issue.

Obtuse: slow in understanding or feeling.

Obtrude: to thrust forward without warrant or invitation.*

Dictionaries are valuable reference books both for definitions and for correct spelling. You ought to dust yours off, Ed.


----------



## Meg90

Anyone who wants to throw around phrases like *Its not possible. No that's not how it works. That's not true.
*

These phrases hould follow with an explanation. Otherwise, they become only a useless provocation to others who feel very strongly on the matter. This is supposed to be debate, and I applaud my other members for actually debating. However, if you are posting in this thread just to fuel fires, please stop.

I have read tons of horror stories here, most of them about sulcata. I have also seen about 85% of the newbies here, either COME with a sick baby sully that they don't know how to care for, or come on here to ask about getting one. They are the easiest tortoise species to find. They seem more exotic because of the size they will reach. They ARE the cheapest CB tort you can come by. And MAN who doesn't love a big tortoise? It can like, walk around your kitchen when its too big for an aquarium, and I heard, like, the fridge will keep it warm!

I see this mentality EVERY time I tell people I have tortoises.

I would love to see the better side of this adebate. But there are what, three people here that take proper care of their adult Sulcata? The rest just have wee babies. Oh, and I would love to see some sulcata with owners not of this forum, that are not riddled with MBD and suffering from severe neglect.


----------



## dmmj

I personally like ed, do I always agree with everything he says? no of course not but i know him from a couple of other turtle groups and I think he gets a bad rap sometimes. I think he was mainly talking about the turtles being kept at the pet store, were they there only temporary thus the breeding only sign so people would not inquire about them? I don't know since all the information is not there we only have one person's observation, if the tortoises were being kept like that all the time and not in transit somewhere, then yes that would be horrible conditions to be ketp in. Was the tortoises rescues of some type that people took away from horrible conditions? Again not enough info in my viewpoint. I am not defending the tortoises being kept in those conditions. IMHO if you are breeeding sulc's just to make money without regards to the future type of care they recieve is wrong. I almost wish they were more exspensive like when they first came out so people would think twice or three times before buying a cute 40 dollar sulc. It is sad but the more money people spend on a tort or turtle the better care they usually give it. I see lots of RES being treated like throw away pets because, well you can always buy a baby for like 5$ in chinatown so what if it dies? it is sad. please forgive the long winded post.


----------



## TylerStewart

Meg90 said:


> I have read tons of horror stories here, most of them about sulcata. I have also seen about 85% of the newbies here, either COME with a sick baby sully that they don't know how to care for, or come on here to ask about getting one. They are the easiest tortoise species to find. They seem more exotic because of the size they will reach. They ARE the cheapest CB tort you can come by. And MAN who doesn't love a big tortoise? It can like, walk around your kitchen when its too big for an aquarium, and I heard, like, the fridge will keep it warm!
> 
> I see this mentality EVERY time I tell people I have tortoises.
> 
> I would love to see the better side of this adebate. But there are what, three people here that take proper care of their adult Sulcata? The rest just have wee babies. Oh, and I would love to see some sulcata with owners not of this forum, that are not riddled with MBD and suffering from severe neglect.



I had just said (not sure if it was this thread or the other), people flock to forums when they have a problem with their tortoises. They don't come here to tell you their tortoise is doing great. I think it's rediculous to suggest that only 3 people on this forum and a few others with babies are the only ones that are capable of keeping their tortoises healthy. Believe it or not, there's an entire world outside of TortoiseForum.org. There's a few dozen _active_ members here, many or most of which are anti-sulcata, and you base your mindset on this group of tortoise rescuers and people coming here for help? Of course you're seeing the negative in everything. 

The part about the missing facts that nobody seems to understand is that per the description of the store -


> 11 adult sulcatas in a wooden cage about the size of a large bookcase, they were all scrunched together no room to move. the sign read NOT FOR SALE. they were for breeding only.


This is not a way that anyone would use or could use to breed sulcatas. It was either a temporary home for them, or they're not producing anything, one or the other. If you were intentionally trying not to get your tortoises to breed, this would pretty much be what it would take to accomplish that.


----------



## Yvonne G

dmmj said:


> I personally like ed, do I always agree with everything he says? no of course not but i know him from a couple of other turtle groups and I think he gets a bad rap sometimes.



I like Ed too. Its just that he forgets that when he posts something on a forum or a listserv, its out there for the whole world to see. We have over 1000 forum members, and any one can read the posts as a "guest." So his explanation that he explains his answers when he's asked a question by one person or in an email, or whatever, doesn't hold water. If you're going to say something on a forum for the world to read, then you need to explain it well enough that anyone can understand. No matter how many times you've explained it someplace else.

I think that because of his tortoise expertise his mind works faster than he can put the thought down through the keyboard. And we, the readers, are the losers. He has so much to offer, but it tends to get lost in the shuffle.


----------



## dmmj

I do have to take exception to most of us being anti sulc. If anything I think we are anti ignorant people buying a sulc without any knowledge of them group. I personally do private rescue and evreytime I post on CL's I always get 2 or so offers from people who need to get rid of one. I almost always get the same response, " I bought this cut elittle tort and he hasa gotten to big for me to take care of" lately as few have been " due to economic situaiton i can't take care of him/her anymore" I am all for people geting a sulc if they ant one but I always urge to just do a little research on how big they get how destructive they are and then if you still want one and you think you can provide a home then get one and enjoy it. If I am wrong about most of the people here being anti sulc then I apologize, I just don't think most of us are.


----------



## Stephanie Logan

As far as the original topic of this thread is concerned, I am not "pro" or "anti" Sulcata. I am a novice to the tortoise world, and am generally content to read the opinions and debate of the many experts--including EJ--who post here.

What I object to is a person who seeks to undermine the debate, rather than contribute to the discussion.

"_you wanna talk about upset.....i went to a local petstore to see if they had some seed for sale and when i get to the bak of the store i find 11 adult sulcatas in a wooden cage about the size of a large bookcase, they were all scrunched together no room to move. the sign read NOT FOR SALE. they were for breeding only. i felt so bad for these guys. just makes me wanna hurl. the person in the store said the owner was the (info god on sulcatas) all of them had bone problems. there backs were all sunken in
I was also asking for info on the beautiful torts and the person in the store gave me all bad info. needless to say i will never buy anything from (the store beside old toys r us on morse rd in columbus ohio_"

All I read here is that the poster was "upset" at the physical condition and too-small enclosure of the Sulcatas she saw in the back of her local pet store. The only salient facts are 1) 11 adult Sulcatas in a wooden cage the size of a bookcase" and 2)"their backs were all sunken in". 

Ed accuses, "_There's a huge chunk of information missing from this story_", then refuses to illuminate that "chunk" for the rest of us, instead choosing to obfuscate the issue by claiming,"_That's not for me to comment because I wasn't there and the individual making the observation doesn't seem to have all the facts and also seems to be taking the observation out of context_" and then when asked to explain this accusation (yes, Ed, you are accusing the original poster of not having "all the facts" and "taking the observation out of context"), continues to dissemble by blithely excusing himself from the discussion with "_The 'facts' I'm missing are a photo of the situation and why those animals are in that situation. Pretty simple._"

Well, gee. That really clarifies EJ's position. Yep, as clear as mud!

In my opinion, if you are going to respond in such a condescending, dismissive tone, you OWE it to those of us who are trying to understand your criticism to explain yourself. In my opinion, you should cease this "stab and run" tactic. Your inability to clarify your viewpoints disqualifies you from criticising others. If you can't answer a simple question, don't participate. Worse, if you make a mean-spirited and unfounded accusation, either explain your position or apologize and retract your charge. Obviously you can choose to continue pretending to be only one who truly gets it, accusing others of JUDGMENTALism, and implying that most of us are naive and ignorant. Just know that you are not deceiving anyone so much as yourself.


----------



## -EJ

My position is pretty straight forward. No photos have been provided and there was a very subjective description of the situation.

How many time's has the OP walked into the shop and found the tortoises in that condition and for how long? Did the OP talk to the owner and ask why the tortoises were in that position? Did the OP pick up the tortoises or evaluate the general health of the tortoises?

All I'm commenting on is that what might be bad or wrong to one person is not so to another.

I don't see were there is an acqusation. I'm simply stating an opinion. As stated before I wasn't there or don't know the OPs situation.

I'm pretty confident in my position and the way I stated it. Half of the people who have responded seem to understand what I'm trying to say. That is the mark I look for anytime I express a thought. If there are those who don't get it they are reading it in a perspective that stears them away from the point.



Stephanie Logan said:


> As far as the original topic of this thread is concerned, I am not "pro" or "anti" Sulcata. I am a novice to the tortoise world, and am generally content to read the opinions and debate of the many experts--including EJ--who post here.
> 
> What I object to is a person who seeks to undermine the debate, rather than contribute to the discussion.
> 
> "_you wanna talk about upset.....i went to a local petstore to see if they had some seed for sale and when i get to the bak of the store i find 11 adult sulcatas in a wooden cage about the size of a large bookcase, they were all scrunched together no room to move. the sign read NOT FOR SALE. they were for breeding only. i felt so bad for these guys. just makes me wanna hurl. the person in the store said the owner was the (info god on sulcatas) all of them had bone problems. there backs were all sunken in
> I was also asking for info on the beautiful torts and the person in the store gave me all bad info. needless to say i will never buy anything from (the store beside old toys r us on morse rd in columbus ohio_"
> 
> All I read here is that the poster was "upset" at the physical condition and too-small enclosure of the Sulcatas she saw in the back of her local pet store. The only salient facts are 1) 11 adult Sulcatas in a wooden cage the size of a bookcase" and 2)"their backs were all sunken in".
> 
> Ed accuses, "_There's a huge chunk of information missing from this story_", then refuses to illuminate that "chunk" for the rest of us, instead choosing to obfuscate the issue by claiming,"_That's not for me to comment because I wasn't there and the individual making the observation doesn't seem to have all the facts and also seems to be taking the observation out of context_" and then when asked to explain this accusation (yes, Ed, you are accusing the original poster of not having "all the facts" and "taking the observation out of context"), continues to dissemble by blithely excusing himself from the discussion with "_The 'facts' I'm missing are a photo of the situation and why those animals are in that situation. Pretty simple._"
> 
> Well, gee. That really clarifies EJ's position. Yep, as clear as mud!
> 
> In my opinion, if you are going to respond in such a condescending, dismissive tone, you OWE it to those of us who are trying to understand your criticism to explain yourself. In my opinion, you should cease this "stab and run" tactic. Your inability to clarify your viewpoints disqualifies you from criticising others. If you can't answer a simple question, don't participate. Worse, if you make a mean-spirited and unfounded accusation, either explain your position or apologize and retract your charge. Obviously you can choose to continue pretending to be only one who truly gets it, accusing others of JUDGMENTALism, and implying that most of us are naive and ignorant. Just know that you are not deceiving anyone so much as yourself.


----------



## chadk

I agree with Tyler. That was a pretty silly thing to say Meg90...


----------



## redreatta

dmmj said:


> I personally like ed, do I always agree with everything he says? no of course not but i know him from a couple of other turtle groups and I think he gets a bad rap sometimes. I think he was mainly talking about the turtles being kept at the pet store, were they there only temporary thus the breeding only sign so people would not inquire about them? I don't know since all the information is not there we only have one person's observation, if the tortoises were being kept like that all the time and not in transit somewhere, then yes that would be horrible conditions to be ketp in. Was the tortoises rescues of some type that people took away from horrible conditions? Again not enough info in my viewpoint. I am not defending the tortoises being kept in those conditions. IMHO if you are breeeding sulc's just to make money without regards to the future type of care they recieve is wrong. I almost wish they were more exspensive like when they first came out so people would think twice or three times before buying a cute 40 dollar sulc. It is sad but the more money people spend on a tort or turtle the better care they usually give it. I see lots of RES being treated like throw away pets because, well you can always buy a baby for like 5$ in chinatown so what if it dies? it is sad. please forgive the long winded post.



ok to clear that one up. the person in the pet store said that the torts stay in that cage till it gets warm out again....being in ohio that will not be till may or june. the size of the pen was roughly 6 ft by 4 ft. 11 adult sulcatas (HUGE!) in this area did not seem to be very humane. there was no room for them to move about. there shells, more so toward the rear was sunken in very deep. no water dishs, and a few old pumkins were in there...i know very little about these awsome torts, but from what i have read the way that they were being taken care of was not correct and i feel bad for them. the person in the pet store also told me that i should be feeding mine ONLY greens and that hays,grasses and other plants that have fiber in them was bad for torts..i asked her "what do they eat in the wild" she could not give me an answer...i value everyones opinion on here because it is making a better life for IGGIE...


----------



## oswego tort lover

i don't think EJ undermined this debate at all in fact i understood what he was saying with out any problem . if at times a debate doesn't rise to a socratic dialoge well it happen's . no one's holding you back .. you sure come across as angry. you are the student yelling at the prof here , and i see no reason for it . i would urge you to apologize to him and return to the debate.


----------



## Stephanie Logan

_"My position is pretty straight forward. No photos have been provided and there was a very subjective description of the situation.

How many time's has the OP walked into the shop and found the tortoises in that condition and for how long? Did the OP talk to the owner and ask why the tortoises were in that position? Did the OP pick up the tortoises or evaluate the general health of the tortoises?

All I'm commenting on is that what might be bad or wrong to one person is not so to another.

I don't see were there is an acqusation. I'm simply stating an opinion. As stated before I wasn't there or don't know the OPs situation.

I'm pretty confident in my position and the way I stated it. Half of the people who have responded seem to understand what I'm trying to say. That is the mark I look for anytime I express a thought. If there are those who don't get it they are reading it in a perspective that stears them away from the point._"

Hooray! Thanks for the clarification.

Don't you feel more like you do now than when you arrived?


----------



## -EJ

I appreciate your sentiment but I'm a tortoise keeper... just like you. I'm guessing the only difference between us is the time kept and the numbers of animals. I always say that if I get to the level that I actually think I'm better than another... slap me. Haven't been slapped yet... (and be careful if you do)

Again... thank you but I don't think an appology is warranted. I know how passions run on many sides.




oswego tort lover said:


> i don't think EJ undermined this debate at all in fact i understood what he was saying with out any problem . if at times a debate doesn't rise to a socratic dialoge well it happen's . no one's holding you back .. you sure come across as angry. you are the student yelling at the prof here , and i see no reason for it . i would urge you to apologize to him and return to the debate.




I'm having trouble understanding what is going on here. If this shop keeper has that many tortoises... where did they come from? The keeper must be involved in the hobby. They must have a little knowledge.

On the other hand... as I was typing the first part... a thought did occur to me (again... that happens sometimes)... the shop keeper got the animals in a trade and really doesn't have a clue. Again... not being there or having an objective observation... I can't say. That's pretty much my point.



redreatta said:


> dmmj said:
> 
> 
> 
> I personally like ed, do I always agree with everything he says? no of course not but i know him from a couple of other turtle groups and I think he gets a bad rap sometimes. I think he was mainly talking about the turtles being kept at the pet store, were they there only temporary thus the breeding only sign so people would not inquire about them? I don't know since all the information is not there we only have one person's observation, if the tortoises were being kept like that all the time and not in transit somewhere, then yes that would be horrible conditions to be ketp in. Was the tortoises rescues of some type that people took away from horrible conditions? Again not enough info in my viewpoint. I am not defending the tortoises being kept in those conditions. IMHO if you are breeeding sulc's just to make money without regards to the future type of care they recieve is wrong. I almost wish they were more exspensive like when they first came out so people would think twice or three times before buying a cute 40 dollar sulc. It is sad but the more money people spend on a tort or turtle the better care they usually give it. I see lots of RES being treated like throw away pets because, well you can always buy a baby for like 5$ in chinatown so what if it dies? it is sad. please forgive the long winded post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ok to clear that one up. the person in the pet store said that the torts stay in that cage till it gets warm out again....being in ohio that will not be till may or june. the size of the pen was roughly 6 ft by 4 ft. 11 adult sulcatas (HUGE!) in this area did not seem to be very humane. there was no room for them to move about. there shells, more so toward the rear was sunken in very deep. no water dishs, and a few old pumkins were in there...i know very little about these awsome torts, but from what i have read the way that they were being taken care of was not correct and i feel bad for them. the person in the pet store also told me that i should be feeding mine ONLY greens and that hays,grasses and other plants that have fiber in them was bad for torts..i asked her "what do they eat in the wild" she could not give me an answer...i value everyones opinion on here because it is making a better life for IGGIE...
Click to expand...



huh?



Stephanie Logan said:


> _"My position is pretty straight forward. No photos have been provided and there was a very subjective description of the situation.
> 
> How many time's has the OP walked into the shop and found the tortoises in that condition and for how long? Did the OP talk to the owner and ask why the tortoises were in that position? Did the OP pick up the tortoises or evaluate the general health of the tortoises?
> 
> All I'm commenting on is that what might be bad or wrong to one person is not so to another.
> 
> I don't see were there is an acqusation. I'm simply stating an opinion. As stated before I wasn't there or don't know the OPs situation.
> 
> I'm pretty confident in my position and the way I stated it. Half of the people who have responded seem to understand what I'm trying to say. That is the mark I look for anytime I express a thought. If there are those who don't get it they are reading it in a perspective that stears them away from the point._"
> 
> Hooray! Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> Don't you feel more like you do now than when you arrived?


----------



## Meg90

Personally, I think calling ANYONE anti sulcata is ignorant.

Am I anti sully? 

No. 

That's one of the most ridiculous things I have ever come across on this forum.

What I am against is the prolific, ridiculous, uneducated breeding and selling of small sulcata by unscrupulous breeders and reptile dealerships. They provide them to the masses like Halloween candy...cheap, fun, and disposable.

And yes, I stand behind my claim. There are verrrrrry verrrry few members here that have adult sulcata kept correctly. The majority of sulcata owners present and active on this forum, all have torts under 12 inches. That is small. Three may have been a bad estimate. Maybe there are more like 10.

You want to say that there are tons of people out there and not on the forum with well formed, and properly cared for sullies? I'd love to meet ONE of them. Every sulcata I have ever come across for rehoming is either golf ball sized and cute, or malformed. I have NEVER seen a sulcata tortoise up for "adoption" that had a perfect shell. Or even near to perfect.

The people that have those well formed torts are few and far between, and they KEEP them because it was hard to get them to that beautiful size and shape. 

Its the rest of the uneducated, ill advised idiots who own these animals that "re-home" them. AKA *dump them* when they get to be "problems." when even the TINIEST bit of reading would have saved everyone the heartache.

And what does that sound like? *A throw away pet.*


----------



## Candy

Well back to the beginning of this thread. As I started it I told you that I was at a petstore who had two Sulcata's in what was probably a 6'x3' about 2 foot deep enclosure. I think I had also added that they had already been sited before. Now here's another person saying the same thing about another petstore selling them. Now whether or not they're not going to be there "forever" as some of you are trying to point out still seems cruel. Maggie's about the only one so far who has explained this to me in a way that I understood. I have heard people on this forum who told others that they can't keep a Sulcata (lets say) that's 20lbs. in too small of an enclosure because it's just not right to do that, now what makes it right for the petstores to do it? And if we're talking about not making any money off of them then why were they going for $2000.00 for the small one and $2500.00 for the bigger one. Seems like a big chunk of change to me.


----------



## -EJ

They are not bred in as large a numbers as you seem to think.

I can ship them world wide but can't find the numbers to make it profitable.

...and I'm called arrogant. What do you consider 'kept properly'?

Are you looking to be attacked.

Here are some Sulcatas I've adopted...

This is Herman... found wandering the streets of some town in Michican...







It's sad and I'm sorry to say that I don't remember the origin of this guys but I do have records to jog the f/u'd memory...






This is big Al and one of the first adoptions... about 10 years ago...








Meg90 said:


> Personally, I think calling ANYONE anti sulcata is ignorant.
> 
> Am I anti sully?
> 
> No.
> 
> That's one of the most ridiculous things I have ever come across on this forum.
> 
> What I am against is the prolific, ridiculous, uneducated breeding and selling of small sulcata by unscrupulous breeders and reptile dealerships. They provide them to the masses like Halloween candy...cheap, fun, and disposable.
> 
> And yes, I stand behind my claim. There are verrrrrry verrrry few members here that have adult sulcata kept correctly. The majority of sulcata owners present and active on this forum, all have torts under 12 inches. That is small. Three may have been a bad estimate. Maybe there are more like 10.
> 
> You want to say that there are tons of people out there and not on the forum with well formed, and properly cared for sullies? I'd love to meet ONE of them. Every sulcata I have ever come across for rehoming is either golf ball sized and cute, or malformed. I have NEVER seen a sulcata tortoise up for "adoption" that had a perfect shell. Or even near to perfect.
> 
> The people that have those well formed torts are few and far between, and they KEEP them because it was hard to get them to that beautiful size and shape.
> 
> Its the rest of the uneducated, ill advised idiots who own these animals that "re-home" them. AKA *dump them* when they get to be "problems." when even the TINIEST bit of reading would have saved everyone the heartache.
> 
> And what does that sound like? *A throw away pet.*


----------



## Meg90

Am I asking to be attacked? Nope. Another foolish thing to say on a public forum.

But if anyone feels the need, go right on ahead. Its against forum rules, mind.

Who is calling you arrogant? I have yet to see that be posted.

And again, all of those animals were dumped. Especially Herman. Found wandering the streets? What else can that even be considered?


----------



## -EJ

I'm pretty comfortable saying what I did. 

I think I can honestly say that I have a little more experience as to saying stupid/thoughtless things online.

The 'arrogant' thing might be from another 'conversation'.

You so nailed the point. Herman was found wandering the streets. The person who found him (who I believe is a her) posted sighns all over to find the owner. They decided they could not handle a huge tortoise... I believe they could have. A more caring family you could not find. Herman was definately not dumped.

I'm seriously holding back from using the B word. 

This is my last response to you. You have some serious anger issues and it is not productive to this conversation.



Meg90 said:


> Am I asking to be attacked? Nope. Another foolish thing to say on a public forum.
> 
> But if anyone feels the need, go right on ahead. Its against forum rules, mind.
> 
> Who is calling you arrogant? I have yet to see that be posted.
> 
> And again, all of those animals were dumped. Especially Herman. Found wandering the streets? What else can that even be considered?


----------



## Meg90

I don't know how anyone can say that these are NOT being bred in great quantities. 
LOOK at the links below, seven seperate ads all from today or yesterday. LOWEST PRICE IS 30$. 

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=738207 35$
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=728434 55$
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=738157 45$
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=664193 75$
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=737808 30$
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=722522 55$
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=644659 50$

Oh, and don't forget, DISCOUNTS on more than one! 

*Ridiculous *


----------



## -EJ

They might be advertised at that but I can't get them at that price.

What is your point? What are you trying to get across to the members???

(I know... I lied. This is to interesting not to respond to)

OMG... you're antisulcata!!!!!!!!!!!




Meg90 said:


> I don't know how anyone can say that these are NOT being bred in great quantities.
> LOOK at the links below, seven seperate ads all from today or yesterday. LOWEST PRICE IS 30$.
> 
> http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=738207 35$
> http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=728434 55$
> http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=738157 45$
> http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=664193 75$
> http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=737808 30$
> http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=722522 55$
> http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=644659 50$
> 
> Oh, and don't forget, DISCOUNTS on more than one!
> 
> *Ridiculous *




They might be advertised at that but I can't get them at that price.

What is your point? What are you trying to get across to the members???

(I know... I lied. This is to interesting not to respond to)

OMG... you're antisulcata!!!!!!!!!!!




Meg90 said:


> I don't know how anyone can say that these are NOT being bred in great quantities.
> LOOK at the links below, seven seperate ads all from today or yesterday. LOWEST PRICE IS 30$.
> 
> http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=738207 35$
> http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=728434 55$
> http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=738157 45$
> http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=664193 75$
> http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=737808 30$
> http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=722522 55$
> http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=644659 50$
> 
> Oh, and don't forget, DISCOUNTS on more than one!
> 
> *Ridiculous *


----------



## Meg90

EJ that is a personal attack if I have ever seen one. That is against the rules here.


----------



## -EJ

Rules... Rules... There are no steenking rules... 

sorry couldn't resist. 

For me to attack you personally I would have to know you... I don't.

I'm responding to a post on the internet. If you think that is personal... get a life.



Meg90 said:


> EJ that is a personal attack if I have ever seen one. That is against the rules here.


----------



## chadk

Meg, first off, shipping will double the cost of most of those... But they are also meant to be sold to pet shops and retailers I think as they are being sold as groups:
MINIMUM ORDER IS 10 = 300.+ shopping overnight


----------



## Meg90

Shipping should not be taken into account. And even if it is, DOUBLE is only 60$ that's chumpchange. All of my CB Greeks were 200$ shipped. How many Sullies can I get for that price?

Find me someone wholesaling pancake tortoises that way, or Greeks, or Hermans.

Sullies are wholesaled cheap because they are the easiest tort to produce. Supply and demand. Look at aldabrans. Their prices are high because they are hard to come by. Sulcata prices are super low because they are not.


----------



## TylerStewart

Meg90 said:


> Personally, I think calling ANYONE anti sulcata is ignorant.
> 
> Am I anti sully?
> 
> No.



Well considering you do nothing but rant about what a problem they are, how is someone to think otherwise? Heaven forbid someone admit that they're considering buying a sulcata. I stand by what I said, as I always do. 



Meg90 said:


> That's one of the most ridiculous things I have ever come across on this forum.



You mean, besides your next line: 



Meg90 said:


> There are verrrrrry verrrry few members here that have adult sulcata kept correctly. The majority of sulcata owners present and active on this forum, all have torts under 12 inches. That is small. Three may have been a bad estimate. Maybe there are more like 10.
> 
> You want to say that there are tons of people out there and not on the forum with well formed, and properly cared for sullies? I'd love to meet ONE of them. Every sulcata I have ever come across for rehoming is either golf ball sized and cute, or malformed. I have NEVER seen a sulcata tortoise up for "adoption" that had a perfect shell. Or even near to perfect.
> The people that have those well formed torts are few and far between, and they KEEP them because it was hard to get them to that beautiful size and shape.



As if you have any clue on earth the health of the sulcatas of the 1000 (?) members on this forum. You "know" maybe 50 of them, and you "know" maybe 5-10 of their tortoises? 

It's becoming very clear that you are extremely misled by the TortoiseForum bubble, or just don't get out much. I doubt that there's anyone else reading this that would agree with the notion that very few people out there (out of 7 billion in the world) have well formed sulcatas, besides the now 10 (after you upped your phony estimate) people in this forum. That statement alone blows all credibility you once had. Makes me nervous, too, as you just suggested in another thread that you'd feel comfortable buying from me LOL. 

If I have time tomorrow, I'll run an ad on Kingsnake suggesting that everyone with a well formed sulcata, e-mail full sized photos to you. That way, you'll be able to verify for all our sake that there is indeed, someone else out there with a pretty sulcata. Let me know which e-mail address you want on the ad.


----------



## Meg90

Seriously. I am anti idiocy. And it runs rampant in the reptile world. 

I will have a sulcata when I have the space. Would I buy one now living in an apartment? NO. But that is the most common excuse when people dump these animals. As if its a surprise that they grew so large.

I don't see sulcata without pyramiding. I'm in WI and I have yet to meet another keeper at an expo, or online that has a smooth CB sully.

Go ahead. Post your KS add. I would LOVE to see pictures of these hundreds upon hundreds of smoothly domed adult sulcatas. Please, post the results where everyone can see them.


----------



## chadk

Easiest to breed? How many years do you think it takes to get to breeding age and size? Rabbits are easy to breed. Torts? Not so much...

And the idea that you can judge care simply by shape of the shell from a pic is kinda silly as well. A full grown sullie will be 20-50yrs old (give or take) and who knows how many owners had it during the critical growing years. A guy could have 10 badly shaped sullies and have had them in perfect living conditions for the past 10 years...

"What I am against is the prolific, ridiculous, uneducated breeding and selling of small sulcata by unscrupulous breeders and reptile dealerships. They provide them to the masses like Halloween candy...cheap, fun, and disposable."

Sounds like you are talking about BPs...


----------



## Meg90

Easiest TORT. They are prolific, large clutch sizes.


----------



## TylerStewart

Meg90 said:


> Go ahead. Post your KS add. I would LOVE to see pictures of these hundreds upon hundreds of smoothly domed adult sulcatas. Please, post the results where everyone can see them.



You never told me what e-mail address you wanted to use for them to send you the photos. I'm not gonna post them. You're the one that wants someone to show you well formed sulcatas.


----------



## Meg90

I'm not the only one. The majority of people in this "debate" want to see it. People keep saying we are not seeing both sides of things.

I'm sure its not just little ol' _me_ that wants to see all these success stories.


----------



## TylerStewart

Meg90 said:


> I'm not the only one. The majority of people in this "debate" want to see it. People keep saying we are not seeing both sides of things.
> 
> I'm sure its not just little ol' _me_ that wants to see all these success stories.



So friggin do some research. I don't have time to present you with a portfolio of photos just because you can't see outside the walls of your room. There's nothing for me to discover. You said you wanted to see them; go out and look.


----------



## -EJ

Can you email me directly at [email protected] I've got this problem in that I think I love you.




Meg90 said:


> I'm not the only one. The majority of people in this "debate" want to see it. People keep saying we are not seeing both sides of things.
> 
> I'm sure its not just little ol' _me_ that wants to see all these success stories.


----------



## Meg90

Awesome. So, an offer to post success stories? Or a ploy to get my email address! 

You two are a real treat. And boy, do I love a thread that gets so many daily replies. I'd hate to sit here bored.


----------



## Candy

Wow you guys are really going after Meg and that's like ganging up on a person and it's really not fair. She's got valid points. Tyler she said that she would feel comfortable buying from you because you're a reputable breeder, but she also said only when she has the room. Meg might be a little hot headed (as she calls herself),( I would prefer to call it a passion) but that doesn't mean that she's wrong. I think this thread has gone beyond what it was meant to make people think about. Ej I have to tell you that I loved the pictures of your rescued Sulcata's they're all very beautiful, but they're still rescued whether the family was a good family or not.


----------



## TylerStewart

I'm not attacking Meg, just think her mindset is off. She's still my girl, even if we have our disagreements. Right Meg?


----------



## Meg90

Sure Tyler. I do love sulcata. I hope someday to have a few. I'm nursing a want to move to CA so I can have DTs as well.

I just think the fact that sullys are sold so tiny, and cute and cheap is why so many of them end up neglected and unwanted. If they had the 150$ on up price tag that most other species of torts do, people would think twice. Plus, I really only have ever seen poor neglected sullies. Most people have no idea what they are getting themselves into. Its the lack of caring, and research that pisses me off.

I also think that a large clutch size, and decent hatch rate makes everyone think CASH cow! I want me some breedin' sulcata! And then they sell them cheap just to make a quick buck. Wholesale is an easy way to make money in the reptile community.


----------



## Candy

TylerStewart said:


> I'm not attacking Meg, just think her mindset is off. She's still my girl, even if we have our disagreements. Right Meg?



That makes me feel better Tyler. I really thought you were going to scream at her.  And you've got to admit she is one of the most caring animal lovers on this site.


----------



## TylerStewart

Candy said:


> TylerStewart said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not attacking Meg, just think her mindset is off. She's still my girl, even if we have our disagreements. Right Meg?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That makes me feel better Tyler. I really thought you were going to scream at her.  And you've got to admit she is one of the most caring animal lovers on this site.
Click to expand...


Aw come on, nothing can make me mad. The only thing I yell at is my dog when she's in trouble again.


----------



## Candy

You did make me wonder for a minute.


----------



## Yvonne G

Bottom line - If you have the space for a pair of large sulcatas to forage for most of their food, there is a bit of money to be made in selling their babies. The problem is non-education and impulse buying.


----------



## TylerStewart

emysemys said:


> Bottom line - If you have the space for a pair of large sulcatas to forage for most of their food, there is a bit of money to be made in selling their babies.



Just like there's a bit of money to be made breeding redfoots, drilling for oil and washing windows. There is nothing wrong with making a bit of money for your work.


----------



## -EJ

It's a temporary enclosure. The fact the owner did not throw you out and was willing to listen to your suggestions should have given you a clue that the owner was well intentioned.

In the UK there are what they call Tortoise Nazis... I'll leave it at that.



Candy said:


> This is a question that I've wanted to ask ever since I started reading threads and posts on this website. After what I saw today I'm going to go ahead and ask it. I thought some of you might be offended, but now it just comes down to right and wrong to me. Today my husband and I were headed to a farmers market, but I wanted to stop by a petstore first to look at some bird cages. After we looked I decided to see if they had any tortoises there and low and behold there were two big Sulcatas in this 6ft x 2ft enclosure (it was around that size we didn't measure it). One of the Sulcatas was around 50lbs and the other I would say was a good 35lbs. both males. There was some shedded stuff at the bottom of the enclosure and no water at all in there. I asked the girl that helped us with the cages where their water was and she said that they get it from the romaine lettuce that they eat. I told her that is not correct and they need water at all times and even to soak in. She seemed surprised. From being on this forum I knew I had to ask for the owner of this place and they were nice and wrote it down for me. I came home and printed out a care sheet and took it back to her and am sending one to the owner tomorrow. She was very nice actually and I also gave her this website and told her that when she sold any she should hand out one of these caresheets and give them this address. She said it was a good idea. Now is there anything to be done about the enclosure that they're being kept in should I contact the SPCA on that? The thing is that they also had about 5 or 6 babies in a tank to sell too. Why are people breeding something so big? I know that a lot of them go to rescues. I just think that is not a very responsible thing to do since these creatures grow to be more than 100lbs and most people don't have the proper space for them. Hopefully I will get some good responses on this and someone can make me understand why people would do this for a living or a hobby.


----------



## Candy

EJ try reading the entire thread and you might get the right information before you post a response next time. I said nothing about any owner being on site. What I posted was that I spoke with a girl and she was nice enough to give me the owners address. And as for throwing someone out because they have a concern about one of the animals that you are trying to sell would (as long as they're not being disruptive) would not be a very wise business move do you think? Just because people voice their concerns is no reason for anyone to take offense especially if you are dealing with the public everyday and you want to keep your business going. And as for the owner being as you say, "well intentioned", I guess you had also passed up him being sited before (more then once). Plus, we're not in the UK.



TylerStewart said:


> emysemys said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bottom line - If you have the space for a pair of large sulcatas to forage for most of their food, there is a bit of money to be made in selling their babies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just like there's a bit of money to be made breeding redfoots, drilling for oil and washing windows. There is nothing wrong with making a bit of money for your work.
Click to expand...


Interesting post Tyler. I wonder if this goes for puppy mills also. I mean all they're really doing is trying to earn a buck, right? And what about the stuff that's sold through Child Labor Camps? I mean all there trying to do is sell stuff cheap, doesn't make it right though.


----------



## Kayti

I have seen great people breed tortoises responsibly, and I have seen horrible people profit off of Sulcatas without the slightest care as to the kind of lives they will be living. I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t think this should be an argument about whether or not breeding Sulcatas is wrong; I think itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s really about the people involved. There are good breeders and bad breeders and good pet owners and bad pet owners in every pet trade. 
But itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s definitely easier to be an irresponsible pet owner/breeder in the case of 100 pound reptiles. 
Candy- your story really resonates with me because my Sulcata came from a horrible situation brought about by irresponsible breeders, distributors, and pet owners combined. There is also a pet store right near my house that advocates really outdated and damaging husbandry for the Sulcatas they carry. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve watched the same hatchlings living on rabbit pellets in a dirty tank with other tortoises trampling over them, no water, and only one spindly coil bulb, for the entire almost-year I have lived here. If 11 months still qualifies as a Ã¢â‚¬Å“temporary enclosure,Ã¢â‚¬Â then I guess theyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re doing nothing wrong. :/ 
I'd really like to ask the owners if the few hatchlings that have disappeared were sold, or died.


----------



## Madortoise

All I can say is that my hubby initially had obsessed about getting a sulcata and I'm so glad I put my foot down and said no because there was no way that we could have cared for it the way some of you do dedicating a whole shed and a backyard, trucking the produce to feed the animal, and...etc. Accolade for you all who loves the sullies and takes good care of them.


----------



## TylerStewart

Candy said:


> TylerStewart said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just like there's a bit of money to be made breeding redfoots, drilling for oil and washing windows. There is nothing wrong with making a bit of money for your work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting post Tyler. I wonder if this goes for puppy mills also. I mean all they're really doing is trying to earn a buck, right? And what about the stuff that's sold through Child Labor Camps? I mean all there trying to do is sell stuff cheap, doesn't make it right though.
Click to expand...


Big difference.... There is no population problem with sulcatas like there is with dogs and cats. The apparent problem only exists in a few very rare cases, and in many other's minds.

Child labor camps - Sure it's not right, but much the stuff you (and I, and most of us) buy has gone through child labor process at some point. It's not right, but the only way to protest your anger towards it is to move into the middle of the desert and produce your own food, shelter and clothing. Standing in front of Wal Mart with a sign isn't going to change anything that's happening in China.


----------



## Kayti

TylerStewart said:


> Candy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TylerStewart said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just like there's a bit of money to be made breeding redfoots, drilling for oil and washing windows. There is nothing wrong with making a bit of money for your work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting post Tyler. I wonder if this goes for puppy mills also. I mean all they're really doing is trying to earn a buck, right? And what about the stuff that's sold through Child Labor Camps? I mean all there trying to do is sell stuff cheap, doesn't make it right though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Big difference.... There is no population problem with sulcatas like there is with dogs and cats. The apparent problem only exists in a few very rare cases, and in many other's minds.
> 
> Child labor camps - Sure it's not right, but much the stuff you (and I, and most of us) buy has gone through child labor process at some point. It's not right, but the only way to protest your anger towards it is to move into the middle of the desert and produce your own food, shelter and clothing. Standing in front of Wal Mart with a sign isn't going to change anything that's happening in China.
Click to expand...


Just FYI, there are labor injustices in the united states too. 
http://www.corpwatch.org/section.php?id=184

And boycotting is one way people are making a difference, as is legal action and creating groups that aid workers.
The parallel in the tortoise world would be not buying hatchling sulcatas from bad pet stores/breeders, or lobbying to get standards of care set for tortoises as there are for dogs/cats.

I don't think Candy was referring to an overpopulation problem as much as an improper care problem, such as bad breeders giving sick Sulcatas to bad chain pet stores who sell them to apartment dwellers and 12 year olds along with a 10 gallon tank full of sand. Obviously, not all breeders/distributes are like this, but some are. I think the comparison to puppy mills is fair; these people don't care about the health of their animals, they don't care about the health of their products, all they care about is profit. It's different if you're looking at the population issue, but not so different if you looking at the quality of life of the animals.


----------



## Candy

Well at least Kayti got my point. I didn't compare population Tyler. You said "to make a bit of money". No difference like Kayti said in her post. My point was that Puppy Mills are to make a quick sale off of the animal no difference between them and a bad Sulcata Breeder. And I don't agree on the activist thing. A lot of people have made a difference by standing in front of Walmart. Why do you think you used that terminology?


----------



## TylerStewart

Candy said:


> Well at least Kayti got my point. I didn't compare population Tyler. You said "to make a bit of money". No difference like Kayti said in her post. My point was that Puppy Mills are to make a quick sale off of the animal no difference between them and a bad Sulcata Breeder. And I don't agree on the activist thing. A lot of people have made a difference by standing in front of Walmart. Why do you think you used that terminology?



So you think it's a fair comparison to say that a bad sulcata breeder is like the manager of a child labor camp? I got your point, it was just innacurate. 

I'd like a definition of a "bad sulcata breeder." If I sell a sulcata to someone who is well intentioned, keeps it for 10 years, then loses their house and is forced to get rid of it, does that make me a bad sulcata breeder since an animal that I produced eventually became unwanted? Almost everyone is well intentioned when they buy a tortoise, but circumstances change, and some of them become less of a priority than they once were. The other 95% of them make lots of families and kids very happy, like everyone that I know that has a big sulcata. 

A protester standing in front of Wal Mart is not going to close down a child labor camp in China. On a local level, I see where they might have some influence, but the last thing that China cares about is a bunch of retired ladies and laid off union workers protesting Wal Mart.


----------



## Candy

So you think it's a fair comparison to say that a bad sulcata breeder is like the manager of a child labor camp? I got your point, it was just innacurate



No who is inaccurate is not me Tyler, but you. I'm wondering where I compared a Child Labor Camp to a bad Sulcata Breeder? We were talking about making a buck that was the point of the conversation. That's why I brought up Child Labor Camps. Well I don't know if I could give you a definition of a "Bad Sulcata Breeder", but there's a few that I've seen on this site alone (and no it's not you). I myself think that these people are selfish about how they go about their breeding. I think they could care less about who they sell to as long as they get the money for them. i also think that they could care less about how the Sulcata is going to end up in the long run. And this is why I compared them to Puppy Mills. 


Almost everyone is well intentioned when they buy a tortoise, but circumstances change, and some of them become less of a priority than they once were. The other 95% of them make lots of families and kids very happy, like everyone that I know that has a big sulcata. 

I think you are probably right that people are well intentioned when they buy a tortoise, but this is not just any tortoise. This is a huge thing that will eventually grow to be the size that even a man can't pick up and move. How many households (and I'm talking about my state California) do you think really want to have something that big? I'm sorry maybe I phrased that wrong I should have said "How many households do you think can handle something that big"? Oh they're cute for a while and then they're a very big responsibility that I know I wouldn't want to have. Are you trying to say that you sell that many Sulcata's and if you do where are they going to I'm curious? I mean are you selling 50 to 100 a year? Are they selling better than your other tortoises?

And Tyler about the Walmart thing. It does start with one person protesting and I'm not talking about shutting down Walmart just making people aware of things helps them make their own decisions on who they would like to do business with. How do you think we found out about what Walmart was doing? It took someone to put it out there don't you think?


----------



## -EJ

It seems we are straying off topic...

People breed and sell Sulcatas because there is a market. It's a pretty simple concept. 

You can still buy and sell RES... why not Sulcatas.

Whether you like this practice or not is not really relevent to the question as it is written.


----------



## Stephanie Logan

Wait--didn't Candy originally ask the question?

I thought that meant she got to decide the meaning of the question, or at least the interpretation. Maybe she was questioning the moral aspect, not the presence of a market.


----------



## TylerStewart

Candy said:


> Well I don't know if I could give you a definition of a "Bad Sulcata Breeder", but there's a few that I've seen on this site alone (and no it's not you). I myself think that these people are selfish about how they go about their breeding. I think they could care less about who they sell to as long as they get the money for them. i also think that they could care less about how the Sulcata is going to end up in the long run. And this is why I compared them to Puppy Mills.



So would someone that offered sulcatas wholesale be considered a bad sulcata breeder? I'm still looking for what makes one breeder a bad one versus another breeder being a good one. I don't really care much if you consider me a bad one, I just want to know what qualifies me as that to you. I have sold sulcatas wholesale in the past.... Does that mean I'm a bad sulcata breeder? Either way, the breeder makes money whether it is retail or wholesale. Does that make someone selfish? Greedy? It seems to me that the fact that money changes hands is what makes it evil, in your opinion. 



Candy said:


> I think you are probably right that people are well intentioned when they buy a tortoise, but this is not just any tortoise. This is a huge thing that will eventually grow to be the size that even a man can't pick up and move. How many households (and I'm talking about my state California) do you think really want to have something that big? I'm sorry maybe I phrased that wrong I should have said "How many households do you think can handle something that big"? Oh they're cute for a while and then they're a very big responsibility that I know I wouldn't want to have.



I've never seen a sulcata that was too big for me to physically move, and I'm skinny. I moved my entire group recently from one property to another, and it wasn't mission impossible. I know that somewhere out there on the internet, it says that they get to be 250-300 pounds, but in all reality, this is rare. 



Candy said:


> Are you trying to say that you sell that many Sulcata's and if you do where are they going to I'm curious? I mean are you selling 50 to 100 a year? Are they selling better than your other tortoises?



What, do you want the customer's names? Addresses? Out of fear of you and Yvonne and Meg burning my house down, I'm not going to admit to how many sulcatas I sell. Maybe in a different forum, but not the anti sulcata one LOL.


----------



## Candy

I thought so. Are we positive that "Bob" wasn't one of yours and now Maggie has to take care of this character. lol And really Tyler do you think Yvonne goes around picking up Dudley and moving him from here to there. Got ya!


----------



## -EJ

This is like Kindergarden... she has the hots for you. Tyler... pm her your number.



TylerStewart said:


> Candy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I don't know if I could give you a definition of a "Bad Sulcata Breeder", but there's a few that I've seen on this site alone (and no it's not you). I myself think that these people are selfish about how they go about their breeding. I think they could care less about who they sell to as long as they get the money for them. i also think that they could care less about how the Sulcata is going to end up in the long run. And this is why I compared them to Puppy Mills.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So would someone that offered sulcatas wholesale be considered a bad sulcata breeder? I'm still looking for what makes one breeder a bad one versus another breeder being a good one. I don't really care much if you consider me a bad one, I just want to know what qualifies me as that to you. I have sold sulcatas wholesale in the past.... Does that mean I'm a bad sulcata breeder? Either way, the breeder makes money whether it is retail or wholesale. Does that make someone selfish? Greedy? It seems to me that the fact that money changes hands is what makes it evil, in your opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> Candy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you are probably right that people are well intentioned when they buy a tortoise, but this is not just any tortoise. This is a huge thing that will eventually grow to be the size that even a man can't pick up and move. How many households (and I'm talking about my state California) do you think really want to have something that big? I'm sorry maybe I phrased that wrong I should have said "How many households do you think can handle something that big"? Oh they're cute for a while and then they're a very big responsibility that I know I wouldn't want to have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I've never seen a sulcata that was too big for me to physically move, and I'm skinny. I moved my entire group recently from one property to another, and it wasn't mission impossible. I know that somewhere out there on the internet, it says that they get to be 250-300 pounds, but in all reality, this is rare.
> 
> 
> 
> Candy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you trying to say that you sell that many Sulcata's and if you do where are they going to I'm curious? I mean are you selling 50 to 100 a year? Are they selling better than your other tortoises?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What, do you want the customer's names? Addresses? Out of fear of you and Yvonne and Meg burning my house down, I'm not going to admit to how many sulcatas I sell. Maybe in a different forum, but not the anti sulcata one LOL.
Click to expand...


----------



## TylerStewart

-EJ said:


> This is like Kindergarden... she has the hots for you. Tyler... pm her your number.



I thought it was strange he way she kept glaring at me at the Anaheim show, but that would explain it. Candy, you know I'm happily married. Your signature shows that you have a husband. You should be ashamed of yourself.


----------



## Candy

You guys are something else. I am soooo laughing right now. Your right Tyler I'm married and he's 6 foot 3 inches tall and weights about 250lbs. I guess he'd have no problem picking up one of your Sulcatas. lol Anyway your right EJ, Tyler is very cute, but I do think that I've got him by just a few years, but it's a good try. Afterall I saw his wife and she very pretty. They make a very nice looking family.


----------



## Kayti

> So would someone that offered sulcatas wholesale be considered a bad sulcata breeder? I'm still looking for what makes one breeder a bad one versus another breeder being a good one.



Money doesn't really enter into the question of morality. 
I think, and I think Candy would agree, that someone who sets up a situation to create an animal in captivity has a responsibility to ensure a certain quality of life for that animal. 

Obviously, that's pretty difficult to do, and especially difficult to do if you're looking to make a profit. 

When I was breeding Betta fish, I had to find a lot of homes for the fish I created. I found out pretty fast that it simply wasn't possible to be absolutely certain each fish would have a perfect life after they left my apartment. But there are things you can do- like give people good care sheets, ask them if they know what they're doing, talk to them, etc. 

I think animal breeders that don't even make an effort are bad breeders; especially with the kind of pets that a lot of people don't know how to keep- viz. tortoises. My hatch-ling's sibling wouldn't have died if some breeder had made a tiny bit of effort to explain basic care to the retailer buying them. 

Making sure that people buying baby tortoises at least know that tortoises need water doesn't seem that hard to me. I feel like stores buying tortoises from reputable breeders would want to know what such an experienced keeper has to say about tortoise care. After all, it's in their best interest to sell products that don't die six months after you pay $100+ for them. And people with dead tortoises don't come back to buy reptile supplies either.



TylerStewart said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is like Kindergarden... she has the hots for you. Tyler... pm her your number.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought it was strange he way she kept glaring at me at the Anaheim show, but that would explain it. Candy, you know I'm happily married. Your signature shows that you have a husband. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Click to expand...


You guys got all silly while I was typing up my serious post! Dorks. I want more heated debate so I can keep procrastinating my O Chem final. (puke)


----------



## -EJ

I'm sorry... but I interjected some info and was ignored. I saw the chat going between you and whats her name and thought it was personal



Kayti said:


> So would someone that offered sulcatas wholesale be considered a bad sulcata breeder? I'm still looking for what makes one breeder a bad one versus another breeder being a good one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Money doesn't really enter into the question of morality.
> I think, and I think Candy would agree, that someone who sets up a situation to create an animal in captivity has a responsibility to ensure a certain quality of life for that animal.
> 
> Obviously, that's pretty difficult to do, and especially difficult to do if you're looking to make a profit.
> 
> When I was breeding Betta fish, I had to find a lot of homes for the fish I created. I found out pretty fast that it simply wasn't possible to be absolutely certain each fish would have a perfect life after they left my apartment. But there are things you can do- like give people good care sheets, ask them if they know what they're doing, talk to them, etc.
> 
> I think animal breeders that don't even make an effort are bad breeders; especially with the kind of pets that a lot of people don't know how to keep- viz. tortoises. My hatch-ling's sibling wouldn't have died if some breeder had made a tiny bit of effort to explain basic care to the retailer buying them.
> 
> Making sure that people buying baby tortoises at least know that tortoises need water doesn't seem that hard to me. I feel like stores buying tortoises from reputable breeders would want to know what such an experienced keeper has to say about tortoise care. After all, it's in their best interest to sell products that don't die six months after you pay $100+ for them. And people with dead tortoises don't come back to buy reptile supplies either.
> 
> 
> 
> TylerStewart said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is like Kindergarden... she has the hots for you. Tyler... pm her your number.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I thought it was strange he way she kept glaring at me at the Anaheim show, but that would explain it. Candy, you know I'm happily married. Your signature shows that you have a husband. You should be ashamed of yourself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You guys got all silly while I was typing up my serious post! Dorks. I want more heated debate so I can keep procrastinating my O Chem final. (puke)
Click to expand...


----------



## Candy

I'm sorry... but I interjected some info and was ignored. I saw the chat going between you and whats her name and thought it was personal



Now who's acting like he's in Kindergarten EJ?  What do you mean "What's her name"? Are you not following the posts? lol


----------



## dmmj

I think some people are disturbed by selling lots of sulc, like 10 or 20 to one person for pets, it makes it seem like they are expendable to the person buying them. I personally do not have a problem with people selling sulc, but I would like some of you to start mass breeding aldab so the price can drop on them so I could get 1 or 2.


----------



## Yvonne G

TylerStewart said:


> What, do you want the customer's names? Addresses? Out of fear of you and Yvonne and Meg burning my house down, I'm not going to admit to how many sulcatas I sell. Maybe in a different forum, but not the anti sulcata one LOL.



I'm hurt that you've included my name in this argument. I've never said I was against sulcatas...I have one for Pete's sake. I adopt them out to people all the time. If you'll look back at my posts, what I've always said is that I feel new sulcata buyers need to be given more information about the tortoise so they aren't making an impulse buy, but buying with the knowledge of what they are really getting.


----------



## Meg90

I'm not anti sulcata either. I attempted to rescue one this summer, and would gladly take in another if I found one in need in my area.

A bad breeder is someone who is selling these animals without educating the buyer. Sullys are often hawked as "slow growers" and people are told it will take years for them to get to an unmanageable size. Which is why so many people seem "shocked" when they continue to grow.

I love torts, and when I have the space, I will be getting a sully or two. I'd love to have DTs someday as well.

But honestly, if you had to have a permit to have them, proving that the land you owned or rented was sufficient to house a large tortoise I think things would go alot nicer for sulcata. That, or the price on them I WISH would go back up. Something to deter the uneducated masses from picking up this cheap little baby tortoise for their kids. They are second cheapest only to Hingebacks, that I've seen.


----------



## TylerStewart

Yvonne - it was sarcastic, I thought you'd get a kick out of that. I just used your name in there because in these debates, you are often on the opposite side of me about much of it. 



Meg90 said:


> A bad breeder is someone who is selling these animals without educating the buyer. Sullys are often hawked as "slow growers" and people are told it will take years for them to get to an unmanageable size. Which is why so many people seem "shocked" when they continue to grow.
> 
> But honestly, if you had to have a permit to have them, proving that the land you owned or rented was sufficient to house a large tortoise I think things would go alot nicer for sulcata. That, or the price on them I WISH would go back up. Something to deter the uneducated masses from picking up this cheap little baby tortoise for their kids. They are second cheapest only to Hingebacks, that I've seen.



So then, I would be classified as a bad breeder since I have, in the past, sold them wholesale, without knowing where they might eventually end up. Ok, just wanted some clarification, and Candy had never given me a definition of one. I'd love to know who you would call a "good breeder" then, because I can't think of anyone that has ever produced a sulcata that hasn't at one time sold some of them wholesale. Does buying them wholesale make you a bad "broker?" Does it make the guy you bought them from a "bad breeder?" 

Again, I think your reference about them being sold as a slow grower is much more rare than you make it seem. Not everyone that sells them is out to lie to everyone about their size. When possible, I bring a large sulcata or two to the shows with me so people know what they're getting themselves into. I'm not sure whether it helps or hurts sales. The animal rights crowds think it needs to be shown (so they know how big they can get), but then the customers are probably more likely to buy them on impulse since they think it's the coolest thing they've ever seen. Which approach would you like me to take Meg? 

Permits for sulcatas? It's a little different than a permit for a 20 foot python that can potentially kill a kid. The last thing this hobby or this country needs is more government intervention in anything. You give an inch and they take a foot. I'm all for eliminating 75% of the govt jobs and programs, save the police and military. My apology to anyone working at the DMV. 



> I think some people are disturbed by selling lots of sulc, like 10 or 20 to one person for pets, it makes it seem like they are expendable to the person buying them. I personally do not have a problem with people selling sulc, but I would like some of you to start mass breeding aldab so the price can drop on them so I could get 1 or 2.



I'd like more Aldabras too, and I think many people would. It would take the pressure off of the sulcatas for being of the devil, since they would be able to spread the complaints about a heavy tortoise over a few more species in captivity. I think for the sake of the species and many people's sanity, it's a species better left in lower numbers in the US.


----------



## Yvonne G

Oh...ok...Sorry! Sometimes I'm not the brightest bulb in the package.


----------



## Candy

Well Tyler then I guess you do sell quite a few Sulcata's. I didn't realize you sold Wholesale. Why would you do this if this is not your primary business? Isn't that what I read in one of your earlier posts back to Yvonne or am I wrong? I thought this was more of a hobby thing for you.


----------



## TylerStewart

Candy said:


> Well Tyler then I guess you do sell quite a few Sulcata's. I didn't realize you sold Wholesale. Why would you do this if this is not your primary business? Isn't that what I read in one of your earlier posts back to Yvonne or am I wrong? I thought this was more of a hobby thing for you.



Well, lately, I don't sell wholesale, but I have before. I have friends that are tortoise guys (many more that are chameleon people), some sell them retail against me. Occasionally they'll be low on sulcatas when I have plenty, and sometimes I'm running low and get a few from them. We sell them wholesale to eachother in those situations. Different areas and climates have different hatching seasons... My sulcatas start laying eggs in March and are usually done in June, then they hatch 3-4 months later. This means that almost all my sulcatas hatch from about June to November, give or take, so I have a bunch available during that time of year. Most of So Cal has breeders that their tortoises will lay through the summer into the fall, so they have hatching at a different time than I do. It's smartest for me to keep and sell as many of my own at my normal price, and this year, I mostly did. I still have a few hatching right now, and had them hatching at the show here in Vegas last weekend on display. 

I'm in commercial concrete construction, and times are slow, but I am good at what I do so I've maintained a job. Tortoises aren't my main job and is completely a hobby, and creates a good excuse to get out of town several times a year for the expos. If anything, it's my wife's job since I make her answer the phone to deal with constant questions we get (more often than not, people that have never and will never buy from us). She is a good full time mom, and that's how we want it. All the profit from it goes into tortoises. Any losses affect the reptile account. I still get steak for dinner either way LOL. Not really sure what that has to do with wholesaling, though.


----------



## -EJ

I'm tellin' ya Tyler... she's hot for ya.


----------



## Stephanie Logan

"Good"? She's "good" at being a full-time mom?

Come on! You can think of a more flattering adjective than "good"! If she reads these posts, she'll want to see "conscientious", "competent", "fabulous", "top-notch", "invaluable", "renowned", "widely acclaimed", etc, or a combination of these. She makes you steak for dinner, and you say she's "good" at her job? Clearly, you sir are still living in the 20th century!!

I'll bet she calls you better than "good" at commercial construction!


----------



## TylerStewart

Stephanie Logan said:


> "Good"? She's "good" at being a full-time mom? Come on! You can think of a more flattering adjective than that! If she reads these posts, she'll want to see "conscientious", "competent", "fabulous", "top-notch", "invaluable", "renowned", "widely acclaimed", etc, or a combination of these. She makes you steak for dinner, and you say she's "good" at her job? Clearly, you sir are still living in the 20th century!!
> 
> I'll bet she calls you better than "good" at commercial construction!



Sorry, I meant to say she's good "with" being a full time mom. She married into me, a 5 year old boy I had (now 7), and at the time, 200+ chameleons and several dozen tortoises, among other various things. Now we have a little baby, and with animals and the 2 kids, she's got a full day every day. She's a rock, and she can dish it back as well as I can dish it to her. She is the only girl that I have met that really has my same mindset on so many issues, and actually has her head on 100% straight (in my opinion, but many people question both of us). 

Ed - I know she does.... I'll be sure to take my wife to the Pomona show next month, in case Candy tries to make a move.


----------



## Candy

I didn't know there was a Pomona show next month. I'm sure my husband will be thrilled when I tell him about it. He's not as supportive of my tortoise love as your wife is with yours. Although he does help out a lot with building the different enclosures for Dale (He just finished building Dales 3rd enclosure and we've only had him a year on Christmas Eve). Spoiled tortoise! Oh well Tyler and EJ I think we've about finished this debate. It was nice and all. Maybe we educated people maybe we didn't, but for me it was fun. Tyler, when I go to the Pomona show I'm going to have to count up the Sulcatas that are being sold there so maybe after that we can start up a new thread? So please take note because I don't know if Pomona is a great place for anyone to raise a Sulcata.  I've got to admit that the other day when I told my 23 year old that we might be getting a female Cherryhead for Dale he said "Why would you do that, why don't you get a Sulcata it would be so much better". I said something to my husband and he gave me that don't even think about it look. It's not like I don't have the backyard for one. Mine is pretty good sized. And EJ if your going to post please post something worth posting. She's got the hots for you doesn't end the thread. Plus I've always been the kind of woman that if I had the hots for someone I could tell them myself I didn't have to rely on someone else to do it for me, but thanks anyway.


----------



## mctlong

When is this Pomona show you guys are talking about? Is there a website?


----------



## -EJ

23 year old... you're an old lady... I'm sorry... that was rude.

...but the dynamics so school girl.





Candy said:


> I didn't know there was a Pomona show next month. I'm sure my husband will be thrilled when I tell him about it. He's not as supportive of my tortoise love as your wife is with yours. Although he does help out a lot with building the different enclosures for Dale (He just finished building Dales 3rd enclosure and we've only had him a year on Christmas Eve). Spoiled tortoise! Oh well Tyler and EJ I think we've about finished this debate. It was nice and all. Maybe we educated people maybe we didn't, but for me it was fun. Tyler, when I go to the Pomona show I'm going to have to count up the Sulcatas that are being sold there so maybe after that we can start up a new thread? So please take note because I don't know if Pomona is a great place for anyone to raise a Sulcata.  I've got to admit that the other day when I told my 23 year old that we might be getting a female Cherryhead for Dale he said "Why would you do that, why don't you get a Sulcata it would be so much better". I said something to my husband and he gave me that don't even think about it look. It's not like I don't have the backyard for one. Mine is pretty good sized. And EJ if your going to post please post something worth posting. She's got the hots for you doesn't end the thread. Plus I've always been the kind of woman that if I had the hots for someone I could tell them myself I didn't have to rely on someone else to do it for me, but thanks anyway.


----------



## dmmj

it is on the 9th and 10th of jan If I remember correctly it is at the LA county fair grounds.
and the website should be fairplex.com


----------



## TylerStewart

Sulcatas should be a little more out of season by then, so hopefully your count isn't as high as it would have been a few months ago. It will be an over-vendored show, so I'm sure there's still going to be plenty of opportunities for you to bust people there. Keep in mind when walking around - just because a big sulcata is in a small bin (and there will be), it's a weekend show - not a breeding arrangement. I probably won't be taking any big guys like I did in Anaheim. I'm hauling the booths for FLChams.com (in from FL) as well as Julie of ChamoWear (in from IL) for them, so I won't have room in my trailer for a big sulcata. 

The show's site is www.ReptileSuperShow.com.


----------



## Tom

Where are all these rescues that are full of sulcatas? I've got lots of room and I've been trying to find "surplus" sulcatas for years.


I didn't read all 12 pages of this thread, but did anyone address the the opinion that sulcatas shouldn't be bred because they get so big? 

Ever stood next to a horse? How about a pig or a goat? Its much easier to house and care for a giant sulcatta, than most of the animals, I care for on a daily basis. In fact around the corner from my ranch is a big 100 pound boy who lives in a horse stall when he's not out roaming his 6 acre ranch.

I agree that they are big, personable, hardy, wonderful animals and I'd love to see more people owning them. I assume that most people will and do care for them properly. Everyone that I personally know takes great care of theirs. Its really not that hard.

If your premise for more government intrusion in to our lives is that SOME people MIGHT not take proper care of them, then, perhaps your efforts would be better spent trying to save the millions upon millions of mistreated dogs and cats... or children.


----------



## Candy

Sorry you have to read all 12 pages no shortcuts to education or research. If we had to read them then so do you.


----------



## Tom

Candy said:


> Sorry you have to read all 12 pages no shortcuts to education or research. If we had to read them then so do you.



Okay. In that case I'll get back to you in a couple of weeks....


----------



## cyclura28

People breed Sulcatas for me. I bought a sulcata 10 years ago, still have it, don't plan to ever get rid of it, dont plan to breed it, I'm not against it, just don't plan on it. I think they are overbreed a little, but nowhere near as much as dogs,cats,burmese pythons,red tails, ball python,red eared slider and the mother of all (IGUANAS). Still doesn't make it right. But if there were no breeders than I would have my little girl and that would suck. It does help poaching of wild one though, and BTW I would love to adopt one, but believe it or not, down here in South Florida, it is nearly impossible to adopt a tortoise. Your slogan should be BUY MORE REDFOOTS.


----------



## Yvonne G

cyclura28 said:


> People breed Sulcatas for me.



Hi Cyclura28:





to the forum!

When you get a chance, we'd love for you to go to the introduction section and tell us a bit about yourself and your tortoise. And pictures, of course...we LOVE pictures!


----------



## moswen

i haven't even read even the first page of the replies on this twelve page thread, but i did want to state (if it hasn't been stated yet), that what you're complaining about isn't an over-production of sulcatas, you're complaining about uninoformed people keeping sulcatas in bad conditions. this could happen to any animal in the world-- it just usually happens with sulcatas because not as many people understand how truly big they will get. if red foots or russians grew over 2 feet the same thing would be happening to them... obviously.

however in my humble opinion, people breed sulcatas because people buy sulcatas! if no one bought that particular animal, i believe that no one would breed it. 

i am going to say that i agree with your rant-- i really do wonder where people have been living that they don't understand BY NOW that you should research ANY breed of animal and take time to make an INFORMED decision on the animal you are keeping. and that goes for ANY ANIMAL, reptile or mammal!

also, i'm going to say that there are a lot of people out there that don't actually care about animals, they just want money. and sullies are one of the cheapest tortoises on the market, and because of this, someone buys a breeding trio, resulting in hundreds of babies, and sells them. resulting in hundreds/thousands of dollars. they don't care where they go. 

now, i am not saying that EVERYONE who has ever bred a sully doesn't care. that's just usually the ones that we see abused, poorly kept, sad little torties that need love. most buyers were un informed or MISinformed. i believe terry's donna tello was pushed off on her son as "won't get much bigger than this." that's where we see these guys needing new homes and kept in cages too small.

i'm sorry you don't agree with breeding sulcatas. some people would say don't breed one single more dog because there are abused ones in the world... but that's a whole nother topic...

i personally am looking very forward to having three huge sulcatas in my huge garden in my back yard one day... i'm glad my breeder bred them because i wanted them as babies, and i want to watch them grow up!

i'm going to end this ESSAY (LOL) with a statement:

it's up to us to inform!! i'm glad you went in there and corrected their living conditions. it's sad that a pet store doesn't know how to properly keep an animal that they are selling. however, thanks to you they can hopefully become educated and in turn properly educate their potential buyers... HOPEFULLY!


----------



## -EJ

As usual... much of this information is taken out of context. For this to be a viable thread you would have to know how many were produced to how many that were abused or orphaned to get a proper perspective of the situation.


----------



## moswen

Meg90 said:


> Seriously. I am anti idiocy. And it runs rampant in the reptile world.
> 
> I will have a sulcata when I have the space. Would I buy one now living in an apartment? NO. But that is the most common excuse when people dump these animals. As if its a surprise that they grew so large.
> 
> I don't see sulcata without pyramiding. I'm in WI and I have yet to meet another keeper at an expo, or online that has a smooth CB sully.
> 
> Go ahead. Post your KS add. I would LOVE to see pictures of these hundreds upon hundreds of smoothly domed adult sulcatas. Please, post the results where everyone can see them.



meg, how many adult leopards do you see with smooth shells today? you don't see any 12 plus inch sulcatas with smooth shells because only in the last ten years has it become apparent how to properly keep these little guys... WITH humidity. you'll start seeing more "pretty" adult sullies in ten years or so. have a little faith in sulcata owners... we're not all bad!


----------



## -EJ

Meg... I'm sorry but you seem to fit the class well. First have you given a little thought to your comment? Second... how long have you been keeping reptiles?



-EJ said:


> As usual... much of this information is taken out of context. For this to be a viable thread you would have to know how many were produced to how many that were abused or orphaned to get a proper perspective of the situation.


----------



## dannomite

First of all to everyone I dont have much to offer to this debate but I have to admit I had an amazing 30 mins reading this Thread!...I don't have TV at home so I get a lot of my daily drama from tortoiseforum.org (just a joke no harm intended)! The one thing I can say to the argument that there is so many older tortoises that are pyramided and deformed is thank god we now have the internet. Lets not forget that this technology and the access to information is a relatively new thing for this world. I understand the argument that there is a lot of deformed adult sulcatas, but don't you think that nowadays with this powerful tool we use every day that we may see a lot of nice healthy Adult Sulcatas as our little ones grow and reach maturity? It is ignorant to buy a pet that you have no knowledge of, but I seriously do not know many people who don't "Google" something before they make a decision. If people Google sulcata, then decide to get one then in the future its too big and they claim they didn't know...that to me is just a lie....how could you not know? 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=sulcata

I know that kind of strays away from the topic of breeding sulcatas....but I just think the argument of all the pyramiding and deformed adult sulcatas is because that was a different time, with much less access to information. I am convinced that the majority of Sulcatas being raised now will be raised in better conditions because there is so much info now. Am I delusional? Or does that sound valid?

Worst case scenario we can just eat them all right? I mean we'll have a food shortage eventually (relax im kidding!)


----------



## Stephanie Logan

Wow, that's a really good point, and a thoughtful post.

I hope you are right.


----------



## Candy

Actually Dan we bought a Sulcata and then went home and googled it. We bought it because the 18 year old guy at the pet store liked them. He thought they were the most interesting tortoise because they're fun. When we got home I googled it and the next day we went back and exchanged it for Dale. I think it just scared me too much. Actually now that I think back about it we could have raised a Sulcata we do have the backyard for one, but we love Dale.


----------



## dannomite

Candy said:


> Actually Dan we bought a Sulcata and then went home and googled it. We bought it because the 18 year old guy at the pet store liked them. He thought they were the most interesting tortoise because they're fun. When we got home I googled it and the next day we went back and exchanged it for Dale. I think it just scared me too much. Actually now that I think back about it we could have raised a Sulcata we do have the backyard for one, but we love Dale.



I like that though....you bought the Sulcata, learned more about it and decided it wasn't for you. The fact that you brought it back to the store should have told that 18year old and other employees that they should know more about the animals they sell before they recommend them to people...or at least let people know how big they get! 

When I bought Nova, they didn't have any Sulcatas at all. I read about it for a couple weeks before I bought one and I had to go into the store and order one in. Even then the girl who was ordering for me tried to convince me not to and she told me over and over again how big and messy they will get. That is a great employee in my opinion!


----------



## Candy

I forgot to say in my other post Dan that I bought the Sulcata, but never took it home because it was Christmas time and they said that they would hold it for me until Christmas Eve. The 18 year old didn't understand when we went back he thought we were crazy to take Dale instead of the Sulcata. That's because he was only 18 I think.


----------



## Tom

dannomite said:


> First of all to everyone I dont have much to offer to this debate but I have to admit I had an amazing 30 mins reading this Thread!...I don't have TV at home so I get a lot of my daily drama from tortoiseforum.org (just a joke no harm intended)! The one thing I can say to the argument that there is so many older tortoises that are pyramided and deformed is thank god we now have the internet. Lets not forget that this technology and the access to information is a relatively new thing for this world. I understand the argument that there is a lot of deformed adult sulcatas, but don't you think that nowadays with this powerful tool we use every day that we may see a lot of nice healthy Adult Sulcatas as our little ones grow and reach maturity? It is ignorant to buy a pet that you have no knowledge of, but I seriously do not know many people who don't "Google" something before they make a decision. If people Google sulcata, then decide to get one then in the future its too big and they claim they didn't know...that to me is just a lie....how could you not know?
> 
> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=sulcata
> 
> I know that kind of strays away from the topic of breeding sulcatas....but I just think the argument of all the pyramiding and deformed adult sulcatas is because that was a different time, with much less access to information. I am convinced that the majority of Sulcatas being raised now will be raised in better conditions because there is so much info now. Am I delusional? Or does that sound valid?
> 
> Worst case scenario we can just eat them all right? I mean we'll have a food shortage eventually (relax im kidding!)



Very intelligent post. Good points and I agree with you. Even on the food shortage thing.


----------



## Yvonne G

Hey Dan: The first time I read your post I didn't click on the link. But when Tom showed your post in his reply, I clicked on it and what a great thing!!! So that's how you "GOOGLE", huh? LOL!!!


----------



## Candy

I just clicked on it. How does it do that? Cool.


----------

