# Need to rant: Govt making my life difficult again



## TylerStewart (Feb 28, 2012)

Has anyone here ever had to deal with permitting to build a tortoise enclosure? 

We've been working on our new property and eventual home for about a year now, on and off as tortoise funds become available (as a challenge to myself, the money that the tortoises earn is paying for all of this). We are trying to get the animals moved there ASAP, and us shortly after (it's a lot harder to move the tortoises than it is to move us). I have access to free heavy equipment because I work at a concrete company. I can get sand and clean dirt very cheap, and my brother drives an end-dump so dirt delivery is cheap (lunch at Buffalo Wild Wings usually gets me a load delivered). I've been using this equipment to move dirt around, level some areas, dig a little bit here and there, etc. I've also been slowly building hundreds of feet of short CMU block walls with about 500 feet of it done (complete with footing, mortar and grout, since I'm tired of fixing walls that tortoises destroy) and much more than that planned. The fact that I had heavy equipment parked on a rural piece of desert apparently caught the eye of some building inspectors who proceeded to give me citations for working without proper permits. 

I am now forced to have a civil engineer draw up plans for me, stamp them, and I have to go get a grading permit. I think I was able to argue my way out of the block wall (without a permit) citation because by their own laws, my walls aren't high enough (over 24" height) to require a permit, which is why I kept them at 24" to begin with. Part of the grading permit process is a soils report, which I've been quoted at $2,400, where they go drill a few holes out there and test the soils for density, drainage, etc. I'm trying to loophole my way out of that now. What a pain in the butt. They wonder why nobody wants to build anything or develop anything. Apparently at some point I also have to pay $550 per acre for a desert tortoise relocation fee (we are a little over 3 acres there now). 

I'm convinced that if I was doing this work with a pick and shovel, and building my walls without a footing or mortar and kept them shaggy looking instead of nice and straight, they would have completely left me alone. It's like the harder you try to make things look good, the more of a target you become.... I guess it gives the impression that a contractor is involved, who, in theory, should have a permit.


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## wellington (Feb 28, 2012)

That does stink. But have comfort in knowing it happens all over. Except where I grew up. My father and brother built a horse barn with loft, pretty large and the city never new anything. About 20 years later, after everything was gone and my dad was selling one of the lots, that's when the city said we could building pretty much any style house/building, we just couldn't have a barn. My dad just laughed and told them we had already done that. The people running most cities don't have a clue. Good luck. You know better for next time. Hope you find those loop holes. I know I will not be getting permits when I start my tort project. I will be doing mine by hand and not as big a project as yours


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## Neal (Feb 28, 2012)

That sucks. Part of me says, maybe there's a reason for why they make you get the permits. Another part of me says, they really don't know what they're doing and they just want more money. I do think it's a little counter productive...you want to encourage growth, jobs, wealth, etc...in a community yet the process of getting all that done really limits the benefits you're trying to achieve. 

Soon, I will have my own island and make my own laws.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Feb 28, 2012)

I struggle with a lot of useless permitting, however I am convinced that the major influence is revenue........One thing I noticed in my area is extreme inconsistency with enforcement! 

I dread dealing with the county or state.........Wish you the best.


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## TylerStewart (Feb 28, 2012)

While I don't like it, I understand the need for permitting to build a house or structure; if it's built like crap it can fall down and hurt someone. What I have a hard time with is why I need to pay an engineer (which fortunately I also found almost free) to draw the existing land slopes & elevations and then another plan with my intended elevations (which at this point are already done). I haven't changed any of the elevations more than about 8 inches, I mostly just leveled things out and got rid of nasty bushes. I'm not building a permanent structure yet, and had every intention of permitting that when I get there. The fact that a 24" wall is safe but a 32" wall is a hazard irritates me. They wanted me to get a dust control permit (again, for work that is already done), and put up a big sign on the property basically telling everyone who they can tattle-tale to if this property has dust blowing on it (again, for work that's already done) so they can give me a ticket for making dust. So in theory, I pay all these permits, but up a big dust sign at my expense, and the next day take the sign down since the work is already done. Gimmie a break. We were able to get a black market phone number for the "guy at the big desk," and he had more common sense than the guy at the counter, so I think we are going to be able to get through the process a little easier than originally thought (I'll probably know tomorrow). 

Much of Nevada doesn't even have a building department. There's several counties that have 1 guy WHO IS the building department. You buy him a beer, sketch out your intentions on a napkin and you're good to go. Other counties don't even have that; you just go for it. I'm just not quite far enough North


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## dmmj (Feb 28, 2012)

Just say you are amish and you are building a very tiny tiny barn.


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## GBtortoises (Feb 28, 2012)

Having been in the contracting business and dealt with code enforcement on a sometimes weekly basis, I have to say in most cases requiring a building permit and job inspection is a good thing. Building codes and the requirement for permits and inspections helps to protect the current and all future owners of a property from faulty workmanship, potential damage, injury and even liability in some cases. This is assuming that building inspectors are knowledgable and and codes are fairly and sensibly enforced. Codes, enforcement levels and fines vary from state to state and county to county within a state but there are many common basics nationwide standards too. I'm not in favor of government being any more involved in my life or anyone elses, but having seen, repaired and replaced some of the things that were done by others, both homeowners and contractors, I am very much in favor of building codes and inspections.


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## Katherine (Feb 28, 2012)

Ugh I feel for you. I have dealt with this as well. Who knew you needed an expensive permit to build a tortoise enclosure on your privately owned property? Property insurance adjuster was an even bigger nightmare than code enforcement for me. Challenging to explain to a man with Armani shoes and a pseudo handkerchief that the big tortoises did not pose an imminent danger to the average passer-by. Fortunately a lot of patience, explaining, and down right pleading to the proper officials got my business cleared up with very minimal cost- I hope yours resolves itself as well. Goodluck.


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## HLogic (Feb 28, 2012)

The permits are for revenue only. Once they know you are building they can enforce all kinds of other requirements. Desert tortoise relocation? Do you have any DT's to relocate??? Why would a civil engineer need to draw plans for something (the walls) which requires no permit?

Remind them they will get their money when you pay the business taxes. If you can't build, no business; no business, no taxes!

Fight it every step of the way! If you have to jump through their hoops you might as well duck through their loop holes...


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## TylerStewart (Feb 28, 2012)

HLogic said:


> The permits are for revenue only. Once they know you are building they can enforce all kinds of other requirements. Desert tortoise relocation? Do you have any DT's to relocate??? Why would a civil engineer need to draw plans for something (the walls) which requires no permit?
> 
> Remind them they will get their money when you pay the business taxes. If you can't build, no business; no business, no taxes!
> 
> Fight it every step of the way! If you have to jump through their hoops you might as well duck through their loop holes...



Yeah, and that's what we're doing.... The desert tortoise people have a little "farm" on the other side of town where a couple of (from what I understand) hippies sit there all day and watch over a few dozen baby DTs. Something has to fund their time, so they pin the bill on anyone wanting to change "native soil." There's no burrows on my land bigger than a chipmunk so there's no resident DTs there, but they have to fund it somehow. I'd be surprised if anyone ever went out there and even looked for them. They just want the fee. The property is fenced and locked up, so I'll know if or when they need to be there. 

The civil engineer has to draw it up for the grading plan (rain runoff, mostly). There's an old wash that runs through also that we are trying to get the ability to fill in. I think my walls are off the radar now since the guy I talked to agreed that they didn't need permits. I removed them from my proposed grading plan so that they didn't have more reasons to harass me about it. Once I completely block off the "tortoise area" with a (permitted) 6' block wall, I can work in there without anyone being able to see in. There's an outer fence around that so the tortoises don't border the perimeter of the property at all (10' dog run around the torts). That way, nobody can peek over my wall into the tort area (they can't get up against that wall). 

Like I said, I'm fine with the permitting needed for a structure and arguably a 6' block wall, but the process involved in it all (dust sign, etc) is overkill.


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## ascott (Feb 28, 2012)

While I feel for you I have to add that everytime it rains here where I live I get creek size waterways that head straight for my house....if I don't go out in my rubber boots shovel in hand trenching and praying that the rain let's up ...I get the pleasure due to the couple home grading projects that a couple of my surrounding neighbors did on their own....and having operated heavy equipment myself for 4 years...I know the damage that can and usually does occur when someone is only working with earth moving to suit their end goal...so I have to say that while engineers and soil compaction tests are a pain...they are a necessary pain in the but.....also, since you live in Arizona I am guessing the 500.00 dollar desert tortoise relocation fee is in the event that they will charge you that amount for any desert tortoise that may be displaced as a result of your construction activity...due to most home yard work is done without heavy construction equipment....because of where you live if you had gone through the appropriate channels I bet a biologist would also have been sent out to walk your equipment staging area along with the entire site being disturbed as well as surrounding areas to assure you have not harmed valuable plant and wildlife especially with emphasis on the desert tortoise.....so yeah I know it is a pain and the deed of ground disturbance is already done....so hope works out for you...


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## Tom (Feb 28, 2012)

Absolute BS. Criminal theft I tell ya. When are we all gonna stand up and say enough is enough?


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## jackrat (Feb 28, 2012)

Damn it's good to live in the country.


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## Tom (Feb 28, 2012)

jackrat said:


> Damn it's good to live in the country.



If I could convince my wife, you'd have a new neighbor.


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## bfmorris (Feb 28, 2012)

Interesting tortoise constructions. I'm curious, why remove the creosote bushes?

My experience is that wall footings are troublesome for laying females, unless the top of the footing is above grade by several inches.


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## Arizona Sulcata (Feb 29, 2012)

I could say so much here but I'm refraining. Government is crap. That sums it up. They have their finger in everything now in days instead of addressing the issues they should be concerned with. If we cut our government in half this country would be better off and restored to its glory days. What sickens me is they literally have people who's job is to drive around and look for stuff like this... Seriously? Can't you find some other way to spend our tax money? Ok I guess I did get started here... Oops! Haha sorry!


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## TylerStewart (Feb 29, 2012)

ascott said:


> While I feel for you I have to add that everytime it rains here where I live I get creek size waterways that head straight for my house....if I don't go out in my rubber boots shovel in hand trenching and praying that the rain let's up ...I get the pleasure due to the couple home grading projects that a couple of my surrounding neighbors did on their own....and having operated heavy equipment myself for 4 years...I know the damage that can and usually does occur when someone is only working with earth moving to suit their end goal...



Well, the soil in this area is very silty-soft, and absorbs water very quickly. About a year ago, we had a crazy rainy week where it didn't stop for 4 days. I was out there almost daily and there was no standing water anywhere, even the last day. The property slopes 13 feet from one end to another (over the course of about 330 feet), but water doesn't flow; it soaks in. I had a 5 gallon bucket out there to water my dogs when we are there, and after these rains it had 6 inches of water in it (more than our yearly average). I'm not concerned at all about water flooding me. There's multiple washes around the property and a big and small one running through it, and none of them ever have standing water. There is no roads or drains anywhere near it, so there's nothing "feeding" the property water. It's essentially just desert, and desert on all 4 sides. 



> I'm curious, why remove the creosote bushes?
> 
> My experience is that wall footings are troublesome for laying females, unless the top of the footing is above grade by several inches.



Yeah, I've dealt with the footings under walls interrupting females.... We are keeping the footings narrow, so they don't stick out much beneath the walls to the inside. Our current walls (at home) come in much further than our planned ones. 

The area we are working on right now didn't really have creosote on it. It had been cleared a few years before we bought it, and apparently someone there just had a bunch of junk and old construction materials piling up. They had cleared off all the junk when trying to sell it, but there was broken glass and nails and sagebrush on the surface. We removed the top few inches of dirt from about an acre to give us a nice clean surface to work from, and then we did the cuts from there (cut down 6-8" on the high side, and filled in 6-8" on the lower end to make flat pads). I don't want water puddling in one end of the enclosures, so we are making them generally flat both to save irrigation water and to prevent a flood in the low end. Nothing will "feed" or channel water into the cages, so the only water in there will be rain falling and water from sprinklers (which will be mostly falling from overhead instead of in the ground). Most of the property is still untouched, virgin desert with creosote and a few joshua trees all over it. 

Here's a few pics from the last several months. There is now a small wire fence around the whole thing, mostly to contain my dogs. Torts won't be moved there until a block wall replaces it, or until we are there full time.


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## Neal (Feb 29, 2012)

It's beautiful!


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## CGKeith (Feb 29, 2012)

Great site and nice work. Can't wait to see when you get it all done. I'm already jealous.

I fully agree with your feelings about the heavy handed ways our cities and counties are using, it really hinders development in all ways. I've been in land surveying/development/real estate for more than 30 yrs and it just keeps getting worse every year.


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## bfmorris (Feb 29, 2012)

TylerStewart said:


> ascott said:
> 
> 
> > While I feel for you I have to add that everytime it rains here where I live I get creek size waterways that head straight for my house....if I don't go out in my rubber boots shovel in hand trenching and praying that the rain let's up ...I get the pleasure due to the couple home grading projects that a couple of my surrounding neighbors did on their own....and having operated heavy equipment myself for 4 years...I know the damage that can and usually does occur when someone is only working with earth moving to suit their end goal...
> ...



Interesting! Thanks for the photos. Have you considered planning for allowing your sulcata to burrow?


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## jackrat (Feb 29, 2012)

Tom said:


> jackrat said:
> 
> 
> > Damn it's good to live in the country.
> ...


Come on down.


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## TylerStewart (Mar 1, 2012)

CGKeith said:


> Great site and nice work. Can't wait to see when you get it all done. I'm already jealous.
> 
> I fully agree with your feelings about the heavy handed ways our cities and counties are using, it really hinders development in all ways. I've been in land surveying/development/real estate for more than 30 yrs and it just keeps getting worse every year.



Thanks (and thanks Neal). Unfortunately, it's coming along slower than I wish.... I've got a backhoe headed out there tomorrow, but I'm afraid to do anything with it until I get the county dealt with. 



> Have you considered planning for allowing your sulcata to burrow?



Considered it, yes. I just don't like the difficult access to them when they have burrows. We are building them underground hideboxes with a concrete floor and block walls with a suspended concrete lid, like a mini-basement. I'm debating how far underground to make them, but I'll probably just be deep enough that they won't really need additional heating in the winter, but shallow enough that I can somewhat easily climb in there and pull them out if needed. I'll have a pipe to run power to each one if I decide to, but I'd rather make them as fail-safe as I can in case there's no power, etc. With a natural burrow, I don't like the risk of cave-ins (in the soft soil here) and since there will be multiple in each enclosure, don't want them "stacking up" in there. If I have any lone males or whatever, I'd probably let a few burrow on their own.


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## bfmorris (Mar 1, 2012)

TylerStewart said:


> Considered it, yes. I just don't like the difficult access to them when they have burrows. We are building them underground hideboxes with a concrete floor and block walls with a suspended concrete lid, like a mini-basement. I'm debating how far underground to make them, but I'll probably just be deep enough that they won't really need additional heating in the winter, but shallow enough that I can somewhat easily climb in there and pull them out if needed. I'll have a pipe to run power to each one if I decide to, but I'd rather make them as fail-safe as I can in case there's no power, etc. With a natural burrow, I don't like the risk of cave-ins (in the soft soil here) and since there will be multiple in each enclosure, don't want them "stacking up" in there. If I have any lone males or whatever, I'd probably let a few burrow on their own.



Thanks for the responses. I hope you don't mind my relentless questions, what an interesting topic. Sorry to hear about the trouble with the authorities, we can at least forget them for a bit and dive into the details here 

Could you please describe your suspended concrete lid? Do you mean a reinforced slab that you crane onto the block walls of the hide box? 

How many torts per enclosure and what sex ratio for the new place?

How deep will you have to go so no additional heat, and how will you plan access?


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## TylerStewart (Mar 1, 2012)

bfmorris said:


> Could you please describe your suspended concrete lid? Do you mean a reinforced slab that you crane onto the block walls of the hide box?
> 
> How many torts per enclosure and what sex ratio for the new place?
> 
> How deep will you have to go so no additional heat, and how will you plan access?



The lid I've been debating which way to do it.... We have similar boxes now, but they're just wood and wood sags and you can't put much weight on them. I was initially thinking I'd do them as suspended, so you pour the slab (which is also the footing) and place the blocks (probably 24" height inside), then you basically fill the inside of the box with vertical wood that holds a plywood "ceiling" inside at the top of the blocks. Then you pour concrete on top of the wood, and strip out the wood after the concrete dries. That would be cast-in-place, which I have done a lot of at work on parking garages and drainage channels, stuff like that. The other option I'm entertaining would be a simple panel of concrete, so if the box is 8' x 4', somewhere off site you can pour a 4" or 6" thick slab of concrete on another slab (like on a smooth driveway) and then lift the "panel" up, take it to the land and set it right on top of the concrete blocks. We do this pretty regularly at work to pre assemble things and then throw them on a truck and drive them out. It sounds like a big process, but they go fast. You could form up and pour all of them in a day, and maybe 3-4 days later they could all be moved and placed. If you have reinforcing steel in the panel, they're very sturdy and can hold a lot of weight. 

I was going to do a manhole for access, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort and loss of temperature through the roof, so I'll probably just access them right through the entry that they use. I don't expect to need in there very often, maybe just once a year to clean it out. I wont need to be very deep at all.... We have some now that never get below about 50, and the tops of those are right at the surface. I plan to have something like 12" of dirt on top of them. It'll be as much a shelter for heat as it is for cold. 

I haven't decided on the sex ratio yet.... Right now, we keep a few "spare" sulcata males over at my parent's house, with the females here with me and usually just one male. We will swap out males every few weeks during the summer, and in the cold months we have them all here since they're much less active and my parents usually run to Utah for the winters. It will likely be something like 1 male to 3 or 4 females at the end of the day on sulcatas.


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## bfmorris (Mar 1, 2012)

TylerStewart said:


> bfmorris said:
> 
> 
> > Could you please describe your suspended concrete lid? Do you mean a reinforced slab that you crane onto the block walls of the hide box?
> ...



Thanks again for the responses!
Very interesting!

I'm curious how you plan the tortoises' access ramp to these underground bunkers? That's what I meant by access.

I'm quite a distance south of you and much lower elevation. I think summers are hotter here, thus my concern with artificial housing is how to keep the tortoises from abandoning their housing in favour of burrowing during the later days of the egg season and the heat of summer? As I said here in my location, it is hot enough to drive them out of artificial housing and into underground burrows. Maybe at your elevation ( I noticed the Joshua tree in the photo) you haven't experienced this to be an issue? 

I suggest to make the floor of the hide the earth instead of a concrete slab. Then, in summer, the earth floor can be moistened and will act as a heat sink. To stop the torts from burrowing into the earth floor, bury likestock panels 12 ' down and re cover with earth. This direct-to-earth floor will also help the torti keep themselves warmer in the winter months.

I also like the idea of foregoing the manhole, because surface access presents thermal conduction problems during both summer and winter.


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## Tom (Mar 1, 2012)

What kind of livestock panels are you referring to bfmorris? You mean like hog wire? I have 6x12' portable panels but the spaces between the horizontal bars are too big. What are the dimensions of the openings on the livestock panels you refer too.

I was planning on just using plywood for my floors when I get around to building a big underground box, but I like the idea of an earthen floor better. I was afraid that they would dig down to the welded wire and then tear up their feet and legs on it.

Tyler, I wanna know about access too. I build covers over all of the opening to the underground tunnels. This keeps the rain out of their bunkers and also gives them a shady, but above ground spot to hang out in on those hot days when they aren't ready to go underground yet. My 2 and 3' deep boxes stay around 80 all summer long, and drop to 50ish all winter long. Since you are the one who got me started in building the underground stuff, I'd love to see what innovative things you come up with for this.


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## bfmorris (Mar 1, 2012)

Tom said:


> What kind of livestock panels are you referring to bfmorris? You mean like hog wire? I have 6x12' portable panels but the spaces between the horizontal bars are too big. What are the dimensions of the openings on the livestock panels you refer too.



Similar to hog panels but without the graduated spacing that hog panels have. 6'x 6' spacing, in one gauge bull panels or 2 3/4 gauge cattle panels.
I suppose hog panels would work, if you use heavy 2 3/4 gauge panels. Heavy so they don't get tore up, and dont rust away in five years.
Where you live doesn't get so hot that burrowing becomes almost frantic, but I'd still do a dirt floor as long as winter rains don't saturate it. Your main issue is those winter rains, in my opinion.


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## Tccarolina (Mar 2, 2012)

It's going to look great when you're done! 

And it is about the money. I won't argue with the original intent of any individual fee and regulation but the totality of it all is throttling down our economy. The inefficiency of bureaucracy is ridiculous!

GBTortoises, a trip to Mexico shows the wisdom in building codes, like you said, but at some point it is all so stifling to basic productivity that the prevention is worse for our society than the problem its trying to prevent.

In whose mind can it make sense for you to apply for permits and post for things that are already done! That's just stupid. A fine for doing it without a permit would make more sense. 

Steve


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## Tom (Mar 2, 2012)

Steve, you are making good sense there.

Bf, thanks for the tips and sizes. I actually have seen the frantic burrowing you speak of. We get 110 here regularly all summer long and occasionally as high as 118 in the shade. My solution is the hose. Everyday is a rainy day at my place in the summer. I soak all the shady spots. I spray the tortoises and I run sprinklers all day.


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## TylerStewart (Mar 2, 2012)

bfmorris said:


> Thanks again for the responses!
> Very interesting!
> 
> I'm curious how you plan the tortoises' access ramp to these underground bunkers? That's what I meant by access.
> ...



The ramp will be a simple dirt ramp, probably with a small block wall on the sides to hold the dirt out. I haven't worried about that part too much, I'll probably get the holes dug and slab/footing poured and just figure that out on the spot. The whole entrance and ramp area will have a small berm around it to keep any water accumulating around it from channeling in the hole. The amount of rainfall that could/would fall in that small open area would be pretty irrelevant since it just doesn't rain that much here. It soaks in fast and even if it didn't, unless something was feeding it water, it won't be a problem. The sulcata pens have about a 12" slope from one end to the other, and the holes are on the higher end of the enclosures (30' x 60' enclosures). I could always throw a few pieces of vertical pipe in there filled with drain rock through the slab so that any water that made its way down there could drain out. 

I've never had a problem with sulcatas abandoning their currently above ground summer hideboxes for an underground burrow.... Our sulcatas really don't burrow at all. Our summers are at least 110-115 every year, and we hit 122 a few years ago, so I doubt you're _too_ much hotter, wherever you are. We are about 5 degrees cooler than Phoenix just about all year, and we get about half their rainfall. Vegas is the lowest major city for rainfall in the country at 4.49" in an average year. Our winter lows are usually about 23-25 for the absolute low at our current place. This year we had one cold night of maybe 22-23, and besides that we barely even hit 30 at my house. The new place is at a slightly higher elevation (joshua trees), but it's only a few miles away from where we live now so it's not going to be that different. I measured it over 110 last summer there. I think they'll be thrilled with the summer "coolness" of these bunkers. 

The concrete floor was my way of keeping it somewhat clean down there and somewhat easy to clean out and keep level. I don't want them digging further down at all. I plan on putting some sort of heat device down there, probably a KANE heat mat mounted to the ceiling, that I can use it if needed. If they're 50 degrees or more, I don't think they'll have any problem at all. It's still 55-60 on our winter days, and if basking in the sun, the torts themselves warm up to 70 and 80s. I'll probably dump a bag or two of cypress in each one just to give them something absorbent down there, but the dust and dirt moving around in there I'm trying to avoid. Maybe I'm missing something, but I see nothing wrong with a concrete floor in there. It's not something that can be destroyed, which is my ultimate goal. Plywood, in the past has worked ok, but ends up being a huge roach breeding spot underneath it (between dirt and plywood is very difficult to get really clean together). Bare floor or a concrete slab wouldn't have this issue. Our above ground hides for sulcatas are dirt floor (plywood in the past) but they move around a lot of dirt in there and are slowly digging under the perimeter walls. It'd be hard to fix this if it was underground with a concrete lid on it. I understand burying something down there to prevent digging, I just don't see the problem with a concrete slab, and it'd be much easier for me to put in. 

Tom - I'll have photos of just about everything as it progresses.... I got my grading permit application going this morning, so at some point, the work I did 2 months ago will be legal. I'll probably have to sit through an 8 hour class about preventing dust, again for work I did 2 months ago. I'll probably have to put up the big dust control sign out there and literally take it down the next day. I had to fill out the desert tortoise paperwork that will likely cost me about $1,500, plus or minus $500, and by their own admission, they will probably never send anyone out to look for desert tortoises. It's a tax to fund the "facility" across town that spends 6,000 man hours per year producing a few dozen desert tortoises.


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## Tom (Mar 2, 2012)

I've seen tortoises kept on concrete wear down their foot pad, nails and plastrons down to the bone. Are you not worried about that? I think the cypress will slow it down, but ultimately won't they dig through the cypress and start making direct shell to concrete contact? I don't have the answers here, I'm just asking to try and learn. You are leading the way here. When I build I will learn from your efforts and mimic what you have done, most likely.

Have you ever looked at radiant heat panels? They project the heat down and heat the air vs. a heat mat that is not designed to heat the air at all. I think they might work better for you and have similar electricity usage to your heat mats. I've been using one on the roof of an above ground tortoise house, one on the roof of an in ground lizard house and one one the side of an underground tortoise house. All have been working great for me.


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## TaraDodrill (Mar 2, 2012)

I totally agree with Tom and Austin. It's a government racket. There isn't any zoning or building permit process in my entire county. Not a single home has ever collapsed or decreased property values. My hubby is an appraiser and former town mayor, in addition to being a writer I am a real estate agent and former city council member, so we would have noticed shotty buildings, property values etc. I can't imagine living somewhere where I couldn't just go to Lowe's and get materials and gave my hubby on a new room or deck. Good luck on your outdoor enclosure and jumping through all those expensive and unnecessary hoops. I think my Libertarian is showing lol


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## TylerStewart (Mar 2, 2012)

Tom said:


> I've seen tortoises kept on concrete wear down their foot pad, nails and plastrons down to the bone. Are you not worried about that? I think the cypress will slow it down, but ultimately won't they dig through the cypress and start making direct shell to concrete contact? I don't have the answers here, I'm just asking to try and learn. You are leading the way here. When I build I will learn from your efforts and mimic what you have done, most likely.
> 
> Have you ever looked at radiant heat panels? They project the heat down and heat the air vs. a heat mat that is not designed to heat the air at all. I think they might work better for you and have similar electricity usage to your heat mats. I've been using one on the roof of an above ground tortoise house, one on the roof of an in ground lizard house and one one the side of an underground tortoise house. All have been working great for me.



I'm not worried about it because it's not in a traffic area. They'll just go in and plop down there, not moving around a whole lot. I can finish the concrete very slick, also (instead of the "broom" finish of almost all sidewalks and driveways") so it'd be slick like a garage floor (at least garage floors in Vegas are slick). Realistically, within a week of being cleaned, it's going to have dust and dirt in there anyways. 

I've got some radiant heat panels here, I just don't think they're as weather-proof long term as a KANE heat mat is... I also don't think they'd handle the occasional sulcata abuse, even on the ceiling, that a mat would. Not sure of the prices, either, but I remember what I paid for the small panels that I have, and they were much more per square foot than a mat would be. I think on a roof they would work much the same way. 

You're one of about 2 people from the forum that will eventually be allowed over there, I just wanna get it all done first so it's not half-a$$ed. I'll let you check toenails for your approval, but you're going to have to go in there head-first and pull some out. For all I know, their nails are probably already worn down; our dirt isn't a whole lot softer than concrete! 



> I think my Libertarian is showing



I think we all have a little of that in us! It comes out more and more when you go through this kinda crap!


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## bfmorris (Mar 2, 2012)

Tom said:


> . My solution is the hose. Everyday is a rainy day at my place in the summer. I soak all the shady spots.




I'll bet the tortoises use those damp shaded patches of ground as heat sinks. You'll see them resting right on top of those shady damp patches, even put their skulls and all their limbs directly in contact with that ground. 

Given a choice, tortoises won't choose to use a shaded concrete slab as a heat sink over that shaded damp ground, because they know (or quickly discover) the slab's thermal properties are different. This is due to it actually being a thermal break from the ground, not a sink, in summer time, which means it will absorb heat at a slower rate than the damp earth. The tortoises quickly discover this and don't return to it. If that slab is also connected to concrete bunker walls and a concrete ceiling that rise up towards the surface and warmer earth, where it can gather heat then conduct it downwards, well, then what we end up with are desert dwelling tortoises that aren't as cool as they would prefer to be. They will end up sleeping outside at night and moving underground the next morning. I've seen these design results manifest themselves before, there is nothing new here. The floor's composition is important; it's probably the most important trade-off/decision that will be made. Not that I'm not sympathetic, and I do recognise the paradox that trying to duplicate a simple hole in the ground represents. In trying to design this stuff, we're looking at a table top of jig saw puzzle pieces, each piece representing a trade-off and micro paradox, all in one. Great fun! hhehe

In winter, the slab is again a thermal interference, because, lo and behold, the thermal game reverses. Now, in winter the tortoises are chasing warmth, and the slab is again, in the way. Blocking heat's path, or conducting ground heat towards the concrete walls where it is conducted upwards and away, but also ready to conduct heat out of the tortoise as well. Yes, in winter, the slab is a tremendous heat sink, right when it is unneeded. Then we end up with torti that aren't as warm as they would choose to be.

I understand Tyler's floor dilemma, because he needs to also make the project workable for human care givers. I think, if I had to go with a slab floor, I would trade-off by putting that bunker deeper into the earth so that the bunker's lid was at least three feet below grade. I would also take the time to install some kind of thermal break between the main envelope of the bunker and the ramp retaining walls; even if it is just a piece of 2x4 as a spacer.


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## TylerStewart (Mar 2, 2012)

bfmorris said:


> I understand Tyler's floor dilemma, because he needs to also make the project workable for human care givers. I think, if I had to go with a slab floor, I would trade-off by putting that bunker deeper into the earth so that the bunker's lid was at least three feet below grade. I would also take the time to install some kind of thermal break between the main envelope of the bunker and the ramp retaining walls; even if it is just a piece of 2x4 as a spacer.



As much as I'd like to sink it lower, and I could (the work wouldn't really be any different, and I'm digging with a tractor), it adds a lot more process to the tunnel or "hallway" between the finished above-ground enclosure and the bunker.... It would have to help the temperatures down there there in all seasons, but would be a nightmare to get down there and clean it or pull out a tortoise. We always have babies hatch out of the ground from missed clutches, and they always end up in nooks and crannies in the enclosure. If any were to get down there, they'd be trampled in no time, so I'd need to be in there a lot during certain seasons, etc. I could probably come up with some kinda "baby barrier," but I'm trying NOT to add to the over-complication this has already become! 

Maybe I'll make one or two of them really deep and the rest less so.... I'm building at least 5 of these, but only 2 or 3 will be used initially (I'm building much more than I will fill up when we first move animals there). I have a list of other species to address somehow also, every one of them with a slightly different plan in mind.... Not always sure what I'm getting myself into!


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## Yvonne G (Mar 3, 2012)

TylerStewart said:


> I've got some radiant heat panels here, I just don't think they're as weather-proof long term as a KANE heat mat is... I also don't think they'd handle the occasional sulcata abuse, even on the ceiling, that a mat would. Not sure of the prices, either, but I remember what I paid for the small panels that I have, and they were much more per square foot than a mat would be. I think on a roof they would work much the same way.



I bought several radiant heat panels a few years ago at about $79 apiece. At first I mounted them up high on a side wall, out of the tortoises' reach. I soon learned that the heat comes off the panel only about an inch or maybe two, then rises. So having them up high wasn't giving the tortoises any benefit. So I mounted them down lower. It only took one season for them to be wrecked by the tortoises. A very big waste of money.


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## Tom (Mar 3, 2012)

Tyler, What have you got planned for the leopards? I really like the ease of maintaining stable tmps in an in ground enclosure, but since they are not a burrowing species, I worry how well they will take to it.

I thought I might try an in ground box, but with the lid at the surface. Kind of the best of both worlds. What do you think?



emysemys said:


> TylerStewart said:
> 
> 
> > I've got some radiant heat panels here, I just don't think they're as weather-proof long term as a KANE heat mat is... I also don't think they'd handle the occasional sulcata abuse, even on the ceiling, that a mat would. Not sure of the prices, either, but I remember what I paid for the small panels that I have, and they were much more per square foot than a mat would be. I think on a roof they would work much the same way.
> ...



Mine are mounted on the 24" high ceilings and they heat my 4x4' boxes to 20-25 over ambient in the whole box. Must be a different type or something. The type I am using are designed to safely heat up entire large boa and python cages. They are designed to project the heat downward and in my enclosures they work well. I could certainly see them being wrecked if large tortoises were rubbing on them...


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## TylerStewart (Mar 3, 2012)

Tom said:


> Tyler, What have you got planned for the leopards? I really like the ease of maintaining stable tmps in an in ground enclosure, but since they are not a burrowing species, I worry how well they will take to it.
> 
> I thought I might try an in ground box, but with the lid at the surface. Kind of the best of both worlds. What do you think?
> 
> Mine are mounted on the 24" high ceilings and they heat my 4x4' boxes to 20-25 over ambient in the whole box. Must be a different type or something. The type I am using are designed to safely heat up entire large boa and python cages. They are designed to project the heat downward and in my enclosures they work well. I could certainly see them being wrecked if large tortoises were rubbing on them...



I haven't decided what I'm going to do about the hides of the leopards.... I think they'd use an underground hide just fine, but they may not want to go through a tunnel to get there. I think just a little bit of dirt on the top does a lot to reflect the summer sun. I guess foam would work also, just seems to be more work, mess, and clutter than it's worth to me. I also don't care for the look of a bunch of wood boxes that I have now, and kinda want to make it all look more natural. A few years back I had a hide for leopards that had 6" or so of dirt on top of it, but was basically open in the front (I built up the back side of the enclosure). It worked well for temperature, with the 6" dirt blocking out a lot of the heat of the sun during the day, but with the hill on it the dirt was always sliding off from traffic and I had to keep shoveling it back up there. Eventually there was leopards in there large enough to lift up the wood top (which was never screwed on) and it just started falling apart. Now my leopards have shade cloth over their wood-topped hide which helps a lot with the heat in the summer in there, but I still want to get everything as thermally protected as I can. I'm assuming that at some point I am going to be without power on a cold night, and it scares me to death to think that all this stuff is above ground and exposed like that. I'm kinda burned out of not sleeping well worried about a light bulb burning out. At least if they were underground or partially underground, they'd have some barrier from the temperature. I'm tired of relying on heaters and light bulbs. I want the worst case scenario of no electricity to keep everything above 40 on a night that is 20. The hibernators (_Testudo_) will probably be the first to move out there, since I think they'll be just fine in our natural conditions. I've never heated them in the past and they've lived naturally outdoors for years here. 



> I bought several radiant heat panels a few years ago at about $79 apiece. At first I mounted them up high on a side wall, out of the tortoises' reach. I soon learned that the heat comes off the panel only about an inch or maybe two, then rises. So having them up high wasn't giving the tortoises any benefit. So I mounted them down lower. It only took one season for them to be wrecked by the tortoises. A very big waste of money.



Yeah, I was thinking I paid about $90 each for the small Pro-Products panels which were only about 1 square foot or less. To cover the size of these boxes would be a few hundred dollars, I'm sure. Mine seem to work ok, just are expensive and I don't think they're durable enough. I've never torn one apart, but someone told me all they are is heat tape in pretty packaging, which is probably pretty accurate (they seem to put off the same amount of heat and wattage per square foot). I'd rather drop $200 on a 6x3' KANE heat mat and be done with it forever than need to worry about something getting dinged.


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## ascott (Mar 3, 2012)

> I had to fill out the desert tortoise paperwork that will likely cost me about $1,500, plus or minus $500, and by their own admission, _they will probably never send anyone out to look for desert tortoises._ It's a tax to fund the "facility" across town that spends 6,000 man hours per year _producing a few dozen desert tortoises._



Well, I know that I am totally bias in regards to the above statement...of course there will be no one go to the property, especially at this point--heavy equipment and disturbance has already happen....as I said earlier, I agree that some permits should be required and some studies done BEFORE ground is disturbed. It is because people go out into areas without "the whole picture" in mind that these permits are necessary...you see, if it were not all too common place for the earth to disturbed and so much land destroyed by our species then there would not be a need for a "facility" across town that has to spend 6000 man hours per year producing a few dozen desert tortoise....especially when it is their native habitat....you know? 

I do hope that you get some great pens set up and I hope that you resolve the concerns about the underground dens ...good luck


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## TylerStewart (Mar 3, 2012)

ascott said:


> Well, I know that I am totally bias in regards to the above statement...of course there will be no one go to the property, especially at this point--heavy equipment and disturbance has already happen....as I said earlier, I agree that some permits should be required and some studies done BEFORE ground is disturbed. It is because people go out into areas without "the whole picture" in mind that these permits are necessary...you see, if it were not all too common place for the earth to disturbed and so much land destroyed by our species then there would not be a need for a "facility" across town that has to spend 6000 man hours per year producing a few dozen desert tortoise....especially when it is their native habitat....you know?



During the permit process, there is not a "checkbox" that I checked to say that the land was already disturbed. The county sends the permit around to various agencies to get approval on, one of which is the tortoise people apparently. They're not going to know it's been altered until they get there. I have to get the permit to avoid a fine, but that doesn't change the permit process, and the lady I talked to said they usually don't go look for tortoises. On top of that, only about 1/3 of my land has been altered. There's still 2 acres of raw desert. 

I'm sorry I don't agree with the "destroying of the earth" by humans by building on what was once vacant desert. Like it or not, I guarantee you there are more desert tortoises in and around Vegas now than there was 100 years ago. I also guarantee you that more desert tortoises hatch naturally out of the backyards of every zip code in the city in a year than this breeding facility produces each year. I have multiple friends here in town that get baby DTs every year out of their backyards, but since they're not "raised by the government," they're off limits for reintroduction. I would guess that of the 15 or 20 houses on my street, there are desert tortoises in the backyards of at least 4 or 5 of them. It'd be amazing if they'd put out "jump starting of desert tortoises" for a bid. They should be willing to pay $100, or whatever amount, for someone to raise baby desert torts to a 4" (or whatever) size for reintroduction. There would be private farms cranking them out. They can do every health test known to man prior to reintroduction, and they'll spend $100 per tortoise instead of what is likely thousands of dollars per tortoise that they spend now. If you look at a map of the natural desert tortoise range (which seem to be debatable, because I've seen desert tortoises 300 miles outside what is referred to as their natural range), the size of Las Vegas is a decimal point on a sheet of paper. The mindset that people shouldn't develop land because we are running out of desert tortoise habitat has always been crazy to me. The last thing we need right now is another reason not to boost the economy. Different topic for a different thread.


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## ascott (Mar 3, 2012)

. You and I have agreed to disagree in the past....I am going to go ahead and say it...I completely disagree with you in this particular case....I believe you are bias as well...just on the other side of where my admitted bias generates from....you can use the word "hippie" and "farm" when referencing people with an interest in the continuation of a species that will always lose when toe to toe with people and their fancy word "progress".....I believe that we disregard fact all too often to cover our own mistakes...


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## bfmorris (Mar 3, 2012)

On the topic of conservation, I think the single most egregious thing ever done to the desert tort was including ravens in the Migratory Bird Act.

But back to the thread topic:





TylerStewart said:


> As much as I'd like to sink it lower, and I could (the work wouldn't really be any different, and I'm digging with a tractor), it adds a lot more process to the tunnel or "hallway" between the finished above-ground enclosure and the bunker....




Bury em deep, Grasshopper. Two grouted & footed retaining walls spaced apart for the entrance, then grade your dirt ramp between them leading down into the bunker. Next, drop an embossed stall mat on top of the grade and anchor it. Holds the dirt in place and the torti like it. A heavy door flap redheaded to concrete header.

Dirt floor with cattle panel to prevent digging, plumbed water to moisten floor in May, June, July and August. A whole bunch of straw thrown in there, and left there year around. Cleaning isn't the issue you fear it to be. They only crap in their house if it is too warm where they sleep. In the case of these bunkers, they will mostly crap above ground at bask.

re Kane mat-- Unless there is a sheet of good insulation placed between it and the concrete ceiling, all the heat will travel into the concrete which then becomes a complete waste of electricity.

A three inch curb will stop hatchlings while adults go right over it..


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## TylerStewart (Mar 4, 2012)

ascott said:


> . You and I have agreed to disagree in the past....I am going to go ahead and say it...I completely disagree with you in this particular case....I believe you are bias as well...just on the other side of where my admitted bias generates from....you can use the word "hippie" and "farm" when referencing people with an interest in the continuation of a species that will always lose when toe to toe with people and their fancy word "progress".....I believe that we disregard fact all too often to cover our own mistakes...



Sorry, I don't keep track of who I have disagreed with prior to this thread (besides my girl Meg90 and Candy, but they are both my BFFs now) and frankly I don't care. I have better things to get done than worrying about somebody whining about humans destroying earth because I am building tortoise breeding enclosures in the desert. I have as much an interest in the continuation of the species as they do, I just have common sense about how to go about it being accomplished. You wanna know the quickest way to get radiated tortoises mass produced? Quit requiring people to have the Federal CBW permit to own them. Within 20 years they'd be more produced than leopard tortoises are now. You wanna know how to get desert tortoises mass produced? Get the government out of the way and allow them to be sold over state lines. You can't possibly say those are false statements. For the record, it was a government employee that said it was 3 "hippies" working out there, not me. I've never been there or seen them. 

Now to get back on topic:



> Bury em deep, Grasshopper. Two grouted & footed retaining walls spaced apart for the entrance, then grade your dirt ramp between them leading down into the bunker. Next, drop an embossed stall mat on top of the grade and anchor it. Holds the dirt in place and the torti like it. A heavy door flap redheaded to concrete header.
> 
> Dirt floor with cattle panel to prevent digging, plumbed water to moisten floor in May, June, July and August. A whole bunch of straw thrown in there, and left there year around. Cleaning isn't the issue you fear it to be. They only crap in their house if it is too warm where they sleep. In the case of these bunkers, they will mostly crap above ground at bask.
> 
> ...



That's probably what we will do.... I was thinking the 3" curb would just get buried with time, but I guess keeping that clear would probably be easier than having to get in the bunker more often.... I'd want to build the ramp as steep as was reasonable, since I don't want it being 10 feet long, either. Heaven forbid I build a (retaining) block wall more than 3 blocks high; I'd have to go get a permit for that which would then require inspections and a massive footing. 

The Kane heat mats don't put much heat out the bottom, so besides heat rising, I don't think much would be lost to the backside of the mat. I hadn't thought of the mat down the ramp, but that's a good idea. The ramp was my biggest concern as a dirt source ending up in the bunker. Covering it would, in theory, keep it where it is. They do accumulate a lot of mud on their shells, so there still will be dirt piling up in there to some degree.... I guess I won't really have a final amount until it's just done.


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## bfmorris (Mar 4, 2012)

TylerStewart said:


> Heaven forbid I build a (retaining) block wall more than 3 blocks high; I'd have to go get a permit for that which would then require inspections and a massive footing.




You could just eliminate the retaining walls and further isolate the bunker thermally, by using 48" diameter plastic smooth core culvert pipe cut in half and completely buried, as the entrance tunnel. With stall mat flooring. A man could shimmy down that into the bunker.




> The Kane heat mats don't put much heat out the bottom, so besides heat rising, I don't think much would be lost to the backside of the mat. I hadn't thought of the mat down the ramp, but that's a good idea. The ramp was my biggest concern as a dirt source ending up in the bunker. Covering it would, in theory, keep it where it is. They do accumulate a lot of mud on their shells, so there still will be dirt piling up in there to some degree.... I guess I won't really have a final amount until it's just done.



That's a common misperception, that heat rises. Heat actually travels in any direction. That's the second law of thermodynamics. If the backside of that heat mat can 'see' the concrete, the heat will go in that direction. Even if a space heater is used, the heat will go straight for the concrete walls and ceiling. The key to warmth is direct access to the ground, and plenty of straw/old tort manure for insulation. The torts will cover themselves with it.


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## ascott (Mar 4, 2012)

If common sense is your way, you would not have brought loaders and backhoes to the desert thinking you we're entitled to do something over and above the way anyone else would have...a bit arrogant ......if you have better things to do than listen to some whiny person...well then why did you take the time to start this thread about how awful it is to have thought YOU would not have to follow the same rules as the rest of us...then whine and moan about how you got called to the carpet?? You go right ahead and continue to break the law and whine to the rest of us about how unfair it is you got yourself caught........you know damn we'll, as I do, you intended to break the law and you just plain got hammered ......


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## TylerStewart (Mar 4, 2012)

bfmorris said:


> That's a common misperception, that heat rises. Heat actually travels in any direction. That's the second law of thermodynamics. If the backside of that heat mat can 'see' the concrete, the heat will go in that direction. Even if a space heater is used, the heat will go straight for the concrete walls and ceiling. The key to warmth is direct access to the ground, and plenty of straw/old tort manure for insulation. The torts will cover themselves with it.



In the smaller versions of this that I already have, the heat from the roof seems to work well.... I do have underground hides like this; plastic and wood (and block with a wood roof) and I like the way the heat mats work when mounted to a roof or back wall. I don't doubt that the concrete is going to absorb much of the heat, though.... I'm hoping that it'll just be deep enough that it won't become an issue, and won't need to be heated. Still trying to plan out the leopards and more "above ground non-hibernators." I was thinking we'd have their enclosures up against some kinda greenhouse with a trap door to get them inside, but I don't expect a greenhouse to do be done in time for the first winter, whenever that happens, and per the current layout, I don't really expect any greenhouses to be near the leopards. 



> If common sense is your way, you would not have brought loaders and backhoes to the desert thinking you we're entitled to do something over and above the way anyone else would have...a bit arrogant ......if you have better things to do than listen to some whiny person...well then why did you take the time to start this thread about how awful it is to have thought YOU would not have to follow the same rules as the rest of us...then whine and moan about how you got called to the carpet?? You go right ahead and continue to break the law and whine to the rest of us about how unfair it is you got yourself caught........you know damn we'll, as I do, you intended to break the law and you just plain got hammered



Are you still here? Are you about done? My intent on this thread was to show the absurdness of the fact that a permit is required to move a little bit of dirt on property that I own. I'm sorry, but yes I do feel entitled to work with my own money on my own property. Like I said at least twice, I understand the need for permitting for a permanent structure, but yes I'm going to complain that I can't even move 8" of dirt around without a permit and $1500 in desert tortoise fees, plus whatever the permit ends up costing. The other half of the citation (24" high retaining walls) wasn't even illegal, and has been dropped. There's nobody in this forum that would go get a permit if they wanted to add or remove 8" of dirt on property that they own. The fact that I have access to heavy equipment is irrelevant. Just about everyone I know has moved 8" of dirt here or there in their own backyards and nobody cares, nobody permits it. My bigger concern is why you seem to have such a high school crush on me that you keep coming back to my thread in your effort to throw a "side-track" into the conversation of someone that you finally found that you think has a different level of love for the government than you do. Now, if we can keep it back on topic (which you were never a part of), I think we would all appreciate it.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 4, 2012)

Hi everyone, its me, a moderator! 

May I please remind everyone that this is not a debate? Tyler is just ranting about how hard it is for him to develop his own land and not asking for debates on whether or not the gov't is wrong or right. Either commiserate with him, or not, and if you want to discuss the government's rights about land development, start another thread in the debate section.

Thank you.


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## ascott (Mar 4, 2012)

With great respect for you Yvonne, yes mam.


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## bfmorris (Mar 6, 2012)

TylerStewart said:


> .. I'm hoping that it'll just be deep enough that it won't become an issue, and won't need to be heated.




I think if you go deep, w/ dirt floor and keep the opening some distance away from the bunker envelope, you will be fine. You'll be able to say you're a geothermal farmer. Get yourself a waterproof thermistor probe and bury it 6-8 feet deep positioned so that it touches virgin undug earth in the hole. Plug the probe into your thermistor reader and have a blast taking deep ground temp readings throughout the year. A man has to know how to have fun! haha

It just occurred to me that the 48 inch drain pipe, if it were cut in half, wouldn't be big enough for my males. They wouldn't fit they are too tall to be able to walk and still fit under a 24" limit. I'd have to use the whole 48" diameter pipe for the bunker passage.




> Still trying to plan out the leopards and more "above ground non-hibernators." I was thinking we'd have their enclosures up against some kinda greenhouse with a trap door to get them inside, but I don't expect a greenhouse to do be done in time for the first winter, whenever that happens, and per the current layout, I don't really expect any greenhouses to be near the leopards.



I agree, leopards are a different sort of pain in the butt. I think the ideal is a greenhouse, with heated hides along the exterior walls that open into pens inside the greenhouse. The hides can be opened into outdoor pens during the warm months. During winter, the hide opens only into the greenhouse. They always seem to lay their eggs at night so that's where the greenhouse comes in, at least the female will be out of the cold & wind and can have a heat lamp put on her if the greenhouse has already gotten chilly.


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## dmmj (Mar 7, 2012)

anyone else find it odd you need a permit (sarcasm deployed) on private property? Honestly if they were so concerned about the DT's the property should have never been sold.


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## TylerStewart (Mar 9, 2012)

bfmorris said:


> I think if you go deep, w/ dirt floor and keep the opening some distance away from the bunker envelope, you will be fine. You'll be able to say you're a geothermal farmer. Get yourself a waterproof thermistor probe and bury it 6-8 feet deep positioned so that it touches virgin undug earth in the hole. Plug the probe into your thermistor reader and have a blast taking deep ground temp readings throughout the year. A man has to know how to have fun! haha
> 
> It just occurred to me that the 48 inch drain pipe, if it were cut in half, wouldn't be big enough for my males. They wouldn't fit they are too tall to be able to walk and still fit under a 24" limit. I'd have to use the whole 48" diameter pipe for the bunker passage.
> 
> I agree, leopards are a different sort of pain in the butt. I think the ideal is a greenhouse, with heated hides along the exterior walls that open into pens inside the greenhouse. The hides can be opened into outdoor pens during the warm months. During winter, the hide opens only into the greenhouse. They always seem to lay their eggs at night so that's where the greenhouse comes in, at least the female will be out of the cold & wind and can have a heat lamp put on her if the greenhouse has already gotten chilly.



You must have some big males.... My bigger ones are 30-32" straight length range, but I don't think they'd be anywhere near 24" height when walking. Most of my current hides are 24" high and they only hit the roof when they're climbing over each other. We have lots of old construction stuff laying around at work I can dig through and see if we have any big pipe like that. I found a bunch of 12" PVC pipe a while back that I use quite a bit (photo below). For what it's worth, my stars (which I generally care for the same as leopards) eagerly use underground hideboxes. Besides some shallow ones, I've never tried a whole lot with leopards, but I bet they would use them as long as maybe the ramp wasn't too steep or too long. I'm still thinking I'll end up making the tunnel somewhat rectangular.... CMU block walls would be cheap and easy for the walls. I think I can find something rigid enough for a lid on it, or I can whip up some concrete panels. 









> Honestly if they were so concerned about the DT's the property should have never been sold.



A while back at work, we were bidding on a construction project to convert an older existing building into an insulated building (adding a foam slab to what was just a standard concrete slab). On the bid, we were the general contractor (normally we are just the concrete guy). They wanted us to pull this desert tortoise permit on the existing property. The building alone was about 6 acres, and the other part of the property was about 20 acres of straight asphalt. There wasn't 10 square feet of dirt on the property, and they wanted something like $15,000 for "desert tortoise removal" on a property that was completely concrete and asphalt. We didn't end up converting the building so I never found out if anyone eventually had to pay that, but it was certainly something that was in everyone's budget as an expense that needed to be covered. 

Quit taking us off topic, David!


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## bfmorris (Mar 9, 2012)

TylerStewart said:


> . I'm still thinking I'll end up making the tunnel somewhat rectangular.... CMU block walls would be cheap and easy for the walls. I think I can find something rigid enough for a lid on it, or I can whip up some concrete panels.




How would you do the footings for these tunnel walls? Would they step up as the ramp nears the surface or would they be on grade with the lowest section and the wall increases in height?

Yeah, I suspect that 48" pipe is a fortune in costs.


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## bfmorris (Mar 19, 2012)

TylerStewart said:


> I'm still thinking I'll end up making the tunnel somewhat rectangular.... CMU block walls would be cheap and easy for the walls. I think I can find something rigid enough for a lid on it, or I can whip up some concrete panels.



I'm curious how deep one of these bunkers, made the way you describe with the poured panel lid you describe, could safely be buried before collapse is a worry. Seems a good three feet of soil on top shouldn't be a problem. Any ideas?


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## TylerStewart (Mar 20, 2012)

I think it'd all depend on how it was built.... Having a mat of rebar I think you'd have to do regardless of how thick the concrete was, but if you were 6-8" thick with rebar it would hold a huge amount of weight. I was hoping to keep it at about 4" thickness with rebar, and I would think at that thickness you could put at least 2-3 feet on it. I'm still having nightmares about having to shimmy myself down a concrete tunnel to try to do anything at all in there (retrieve a tortoise, housekeeping, etc). With my luck there will be a bobcat down there waiting for me. Maybe I'll just have Tom come over once a year to go down there and investigate. He's known to go head first down tunnels. 

I would probably step the CMU footing, but slope the ramp gradually. I'll probably try to build the hide into a higher end of the area so the ramp isn't quite as steep. Currently I'm at a stand-still waiting on several permits and a flood water study.


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