# Female mounting male



## Akronic

So this morning i did my normal routine w/ my pair of RT and a few hours after my wife was watching them and she called me in there to find my supposed Female almost fully mounting my sleeping male, she was bobbing her head and even opened her mouth as to yawn and then a small squeek came out of her!........i have heard of females mounting other females, so is this normal in Russians? or could the SHE be a possible HE or just really dominate Female, here are some pics for those that didnt respond/see the last pics


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## dmmj

Mounting can often be seen in females doing it(no pun intended), but with the description you put I think you may have an underdeveloped male.


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## JoesMum

You don't say how old or how long they are? Gender isn't reliably identified until 5 to 10 years.

What you describe is typical of Russians though. They are solitary in the wild and as they get older in captivity stop sharing nicely.

Regardless of gender with these torts mounting, butting and biting occur and blood is often drawn. The subordinate tortoise goes into decline and can become ill and die if not separated. That is why it is not recommended to keep Russians together.

They don't get lonely, so for the sake of their health please split them and accept this may have to be permanent.

If you do wish to breed later, introduce them to do the business and separate straight after.


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## GBtortoises

If the female is supposed to be the center photo then you definitely have female, as well as the other tortoise definitely being a male. Female Testudo will often "act" as a male in a few situations: One being when there is two or more tortoises and the group is comprised of only females. Quite often a dominant, female, usually the largest/oldest one, takes on a male role and will act very much like a male going through the courting motions and even sometimes defending a territory. Although all of this is usually mild by comparison to how aggressively a male would do it. The second scenario where a female Testudo acts like a male is when in the presence of a male she is ready to be bred and he is not. She will act like another male, mounting, ramming, biting, etc... This is very likely to "encourage" (probably more accurately "enrage" the male into defending his territory and breeding with the nearest female! I have witnessed some of my own female Russians, Ibera and especially Eastern Hermann's do this over the years. Not as much with the other Hermann's subspecies or Marginateds. There is somewhat of a misconception that male tortoises, especially those of the Testudo family, are _always_ "on and ready to breed". But there is a difference between territorial aggression and breeding aggression. Territorial aggression is generally more constant and is exactly that-territorial. A male defends his perceived territory against other males in order to secure his food supply, shelter and _the right to breed_ with any females that may enter his territory. Territorial aggression can lead to breeding if a female is in the area. Breeding aggression takes place between a male and a female only. Even if he male is ready the female may or may not be, depending upon season. For all the times that a male mounts the female actual coitus takes place extremely rarely unless the female is "in season" and receptive. This is one of the main reasons that it is usually advised not to keep a single male and female together. The often constant breeding aggression of the male can intimidate a female into constant hiding and even physical damage from constant biting and ramming. A pair is often best kept seperate from each other when the only alternative is a small enclosure together. But it can also be true that some males when in constant company of a female under consistent environmental conditions will lose interest or give up attempting to court the female. This could be your case. The female may be coming into maturity and showing some minor breeding interest while the male is not. But more often than not, dramatic changes in their environment (light duration & intensity, temperatures and other minor factors) will often cause a total change in the male and the female.


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## Akronic

they are both 4 1/2 inches long. i dont know how old they are cuz they were WC, the male from petco and the female from the local pet store owner. there has been no aggressive behavior between either of them, not biting or butting, just this one mounting. the female was kept alone for a while and the male hasnt been acting sick or sluggish at all, he was just napping under the basking light and she must have been wanting to go. but i didnt think most Testudo or Russians for that matter were sexually mature till closer to 6-7" once again i dont know the actual age, ive only had them a few months total. 

yes the supposed female is in the center photo and the one on the left in the 1st photo, but mounting in the 3rd. im guessing she's a little older than him.


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## GBtortoises

At 4 1/2" the female is too small to be sexually mature yet. The male is close to sexual maturity. Neither is probably interested in really mating just yet. She may be showing some weak dominance. It's very doubtful that any harm will come from it.
Different species of Testudo become sexually mature at different sizes/ages. There is no "standard" size at which all Testudo species reach sexual maturity. It is based on individual species (and subspecies) and to some degree, individual tortoises. Also, most Northern Testudo species have quite a noticeable size difference between males and females. The exception being Marginateds where fully mature males and females are relatively the same size. Russian males will usually become sexually mature at around 5" give or take a little. Females usually around 6". The majority of Russian males don't get much larger than 6" maximum. Females can get as large as 8" and years ago a friend of mine had two females that were close to 9".


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## Akronic

yeah i didnt think she was large enough to breed, they are getting along just fine. they each have their own hide, they eat together. and i have not seen any aggression from either of them. im wondering what will happen when i get a couple other females, im going for a 1.3 ratio possibly 1.4. but i will be building a much larger table for that. im thinking about making it some what like this ( l_l ) so there is a break in the line of site and that way i can work in the middle and get to all the areas of the table. as long as they are not both males im good, but at 4 1/2" that's large enough to be positive on the sex based on the pics provided, correct? thanks for the input


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