# Desert Tortoise



## hollygollygee (Dec 27, 2019)

My parents were given a captive desert tortoise back in the 80's. They live in Phoenix, but are moving. They are trying to figure out how to handle their tortoise. I live in Denver and before agreeing to help them out, I am trying to determine if I can actually do this given the different climates and native plants.


So I have been looking up plants for a possible enclosure (would need to bring them indoors for hibernation) and trying to at least start with what I know is already on my property. I notice that people feed mallows to their tortoises, but does this include desert tortoises? Also...is every mallow safe? I have a lot of Poppy Mallow AKA Winecups on my property which is in the mallow family, but can't find any info about people feeding it to a tortoise or desert tortoise. 

I am also unfortunate to have bindweed which is a constant battle for me. Can desert tortoises eat bindweed?


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## Tom (Dec 27, 2019)

Their tortoise cannot legally leave the state of AZ. The feds and the state animal agencies will be all over that. They will have to find a suitable home for it in AZ.

Mallow, yes. Bindweed, no.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 27, 2019)

Desert tortoises don't belong to the caregiver , they belong to their native state. Thus, it is against the law to take them across state lines. If caught, it is a mighty hefty fine!


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## ZEROPILOT (Dec 27, 2019)

Very Informative


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## hollygollygee (Dec 27, 2019)

From what I understand, the agency that deals with captive desert tortoises has more than they can handle. They are transported to a facility in Nevada and adopted out IF they can find homes. They currently take in more than 1,000 per year. Given the number of homeless tortoises, it’s become a huge problem. I didn’t read anywhere that they couldn’t leave the state, just that they cannot be released in the wild. Given the fact that this tortoise has been in their backyard for 40 years and was never a wild tortoise to begin with, it will need captivity for its whole life. Finding another home for it given the problem they currently have with an over abundance of captive tortoises.... I will research more, but spent quite a bit of time already trying to make sure the tortoise is properly cared for. I don’t necessarily WANT another pet. I have a dog, but I do feel a sense of responsibility to make sure this tortoise will still be cared for. I grew up with this tortoise (am 46 now) and know the basics of care. So that’s where I’m at with that. At this point many of the captive tortoises taken in are put down because there are simply too many to care for and not enough people adopting them.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 28, 2019)

The State of Nevada has its own tortoises, and I've read the same newspaper article that you have about the hundreds of them needing to be adopted. Each state takes care of their own desert tortoises. Since your folks' tortoise has been in captivity for over 40 years, it is "grandfathered" and today's regulations don't apply, however, I'd still be leery of taking it across state lines unless they have clear documentation alluding to how long they've had it.


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## hollygollygee (Dec 28, 2019)

Yvonne G said:


> The State of Nevada has its own tortoises, and I've read the same newspaper article that you have about the hundreds of them needing to be adopted. Each state takes care of their own desert tortoises. Since your folks' tortoise has been in captivity for over 40 years, it is "grandfathered" and today's regulations don't apply, however, I'd still be leery of taking it across state lines unless they have clear documentation alluding to how long they've had it.


 Goodness, no... they have zero documentation. As I remember it (and I was a kid at the time), an old friend of theirs had a pair of captive tortoises that had babies (I don't think they realized they had one of each sex or something. I would have to ask) and they gave one to my parents. At the time, I don't think my parents thought of it as anything more than a bit of a novelty. They knew NOTHING of desert tortoises. They had moved from Kansas! Anyway, there was no official agency involved and I think back then, very few people would have known it was even an issue. It's not like they could have looked it up online and I don't think they would have bothered to ask a sate agency about a tortoise just as they wouldn't have asked about a gerbil. I am sure given the lifespan of a tortoise, there has to be more people in this situation. My parents are in their mid seventies now and a tortoise would have outlived them even if they hadn't moved. They are still in AZ, but in an RV until they finish wrapping up the rest of their lives there. The tortoise is in hibernation in a box for now. But yeah, definitely a bit of a dilemma and I don't want the poor tortoise to suffer for it. Neither do they! They learned a lot about caring for him in AZ, but most of that is just allowing nature to do what nature does and providing a safe yard and food options (my mother planted a ton of hibiscus because she knew he loved hibiscus...among other things).


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## Yvonne G (Dec 28, 2019)

There are rescue groups in Arizona you can give the tortoise to, or maybe place an adoption ad here on the Forum for folks in Arizona to adopt the tortoise. But if you do that, be sure to vet the people well.


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## Applehead (Dec 29, 2019)

My situation is similar to yours, I grew up with an adult rescued desert tortoise my family was given in the mid 1970s in Cheyenne, Wyoming, and managed to keep him alive through several moves, ultimately to North Carolina where he is thriving. I think the hardest thing you'll deal with if you move him to Denver is growing food - I don't know if hibiscus and opuntia grow that far north. The early years of my tortoise's captivity with my family in Wyoming involved much frozen food from the grocery store due to both ignorance and lack of a decent growing season. 

If you are deeply attached to his being in your life you can make any place on the planet work with enough planning and money, but finding a new home in Arizona would be best for the tortoise. Good luck whichever way you choose to go!


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## AZTgirl (Dec 29, 2019)

Hi...I live in Phoenix and there is a great group here (see this link: https://www.phoenixherp.com/assistance/surrender-a-pet.html) that works very hard to accept, care for, and adopt out reptiles. Would definitely be worth checking out.


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## Kipley (Dec 29, 2019)

It appears he can be transported with the proper paperwork:


Per Commission Rule R12-4-407(A)(1), desert tortoises legally held prior to April 28, 1989, may be possessed, transported, and propagated without a special license. Progeny of lawfully held desert tortoises may, for 24 months from date of hatching, be held in captivity in excess of the stated limit. Before or upon reaching 24 months of age, such progeny must be disposed of by gift to another person or as directed by the Department. An individual who receives a desert tortoise that is given away under this rule is also exempt from the special license requirements. An individual shall not export a desert tortoise from this state unless authorized in writing by the Department.

Per Arizona Revised Statues 17-306, an individual shall not release desert tortoises.
https://www.azgfd.com/wildlife/nongamemanagement/tortoise/


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## Yvonne G (Dec 29, 2019)

Applehead said:


> My situation is similar to yours, I grew up with an adult rescued desert tortoise my family was given in the mid 1970s in Cheyenne, Wyoming, and managed to keep him alive through several moves, ultimately to North Carolina where he is thriving. I think the hardest thing you'll deal with if you move him to Denver is growing food - I don't know if hibiscus and opuntia grow that far north. The early years of my tortoise's captivity with my family in Wyoming involved much frozen food from the grocery store due to both ignorance and lack of a decent growing season.
> 
> If you are deeply attached to his being in your life you can make any place on the planet work with enough planning and money, but finding a new home in Arizona would be best for the tortoise. Good luck whichever way you choose to go!


But bear in mind that if you're caught taking him out of Arizona, it's a VERY hefty fine, and they take the tortoise away from you.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 29, 2019)

Kipley said:


> It appears he can be transported with the proper paperwork:
> 
> 
> Per Commission Rule R12-4-407(A)(1), desert tortoises legally held prior to April 28, 1989, may be possessed, transported, and propagated without a special license. Progeny of lawfully held desert tortoises may, for 24 months from date of hatching, be held in captivity in excess of the stated limit. Before or upon reaching 24 months of age, such progeny must be disposed of by gift to another person or as directed by the Department. An individual who receives a desert tortoise that is given away under this rule is also exempt from the special license requirements. An individual shall not export a desert tortoise from this state unless authorized in writing by the Department.
> ...


That's all well and good, but anyone can SAY they've had the tortoise prior to 1989, I'm sure the commission will ask for proof.


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## Kipley (Dec 29, 2019)

Yvonne G said:


> That's all well and good, but anyone can SAY they've had the tortoise prior to 1989, I'm sure the commission will ask for proof.


I'm certain proof will be required. Which is why I included the link to those who can actually tell the OP what is needed. Hopefully it could be something as simple as dated photos or vet records (if the tortoise has ever needed a vet) that shows the tortoise has been in their care as long as it has? I can't imagine people having notarized documentation of the day the tortoise was found in their yard, so I wonder how people prove their tortoise's history?


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## AllieKat1997 (Dec 29, 2019)

I don’t know much, I’m in Missouri with my Golden Greek, Lumos. I think it’s amazing that you grew up with this tortoise! Hopefully you can get him safely to Denver. I’m sure you can grow him plants he likes. I’m absolutely the worst with plants (I have a dying spider plant right now and just tossed my cactus away from rot) What I do is order plants and dried food from tortoise vendors. A bit more expensive but my guy loves them and with just the one it lasts forever. Good luck with your tortoise!!


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## Blackdog1714 (Dec 29, 2019)

Your parents must have a photo or even some items purchased for its care that could be used to prove the age of ownership. Even the smallest things could be used to show a clear proof of ownership


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## Donna Albu (Dec 30, 2019)

Blackdog1714 said:


> Your parents must have a photo or even some items purchased for its care that could be used to prove the age of ownership. Even the smallest things could be used to show a clear proof of ownership


Maybe they have a picture of you as a child with the tortoise? And just as a side note, "hefty" is $10,000.00 and up.


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## Maro2Bear (Dec 30, 2019)

Last I checked, we are not YET doing POV inspections as one crosses from one state to another. Sounds like the Law is ok with the transport. Unless you have your POV filled with thousands of lbs of illicit cargo AND not driving at the speed of sound, you would be ok. Where are these “inspectors” ? // Just wondering out loud //


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## AllieKat1997 (Dec 30, 2019)

Maro2Bear said:


> Last I checked, we are not YET doing POV inspections as one crosses from one state to another. Sounds like the Law is ok with the transport. Unless you have your POV filled with thousands of lbs of illicit cargo AND not driving at the speed of sound, you would be ok. Where are these “inspectors” ? // Just wondering out loud //



my friend and I were talking about this post and that’s exactly what we said! Put him in a box, put packages on top of him. Nobody will know.  He’s literally a family pet for YEARS. They’re not getting rid of him (I don’t think). I’ve had my baby for a year and I couldn’t image parting with him!


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## Donna Albu (Dec 30, 2019)

Maro2Bear said:


> Last I checked, we are not YET doing POV inspections as one crosses from one state to another. Sounds like the Law is ok with the transport. Unless you have your POV filled with thousands of lbs of illicit cargo AND not driving at the speed of sound, you would be ok. Where are these “inspectors” ? // Just wondering out loud //


Definitely on post between Arizona and California, but mostly they wave people through unless they suspect illegal immigration. Summer time is different. They stop the non local campers to check for transport of the wrong fruits and vegetables.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 30, 2019)

It's against Forum policy to talk about or encourage anything illegal.


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## AllieKat1997 (Dec 31, 2019)

Yvonne G said:


> It's against Forum policy to talk about or encourage anything illegal.



Sorry Yvonne. It’s just a really crappy situation. I couldn’t image losing my pet after 48 years (I think that’s what she said). Back in those days people didn’t have documentation. I dunno about anyone else but pets are _family_ for me; that’s how I was raised. And you don’t give up on family. Not for anything. I just hope they figure it out and everything works out for them.


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## hollygollygee (Jan 1, 2020)

Wow! Thanks for all the replies. As it's all settled into our brains a bit more, I have encouraged my mother to call the Sonoran Desert Museum and give him to them. It seems they do a great job. If for some reason, that doesn't pan out, I am hoping they can suggest further options. And then along with the options posted here...I am sure we can figure it out.

Yes...my parents have lots of photos of him all the way back in the 80's. I even took him to a pet day thing at Girl Scouts when I was like 7 years old and there is a picture of me in my Girl Scout uniform holding this tortoise (I am 46 now..so think on that...lol). Although I am still not sure how it proves much since they all kind of look the same.

As far as habitat here in Denver, I could easily build a wonderful habitat. I am on 2.5 acres on the eastern plains and have lovely gardens all planted by me. And yes, we have hibiscus believe it or not. I had mentioned the bindweed in the original post because I am constantly torching it, pulling it, etc. It's awful stuff and I have no shortage of it, but I also have things like Hollyhock Zebrina (not actually a hollyhock, but a mallow), actual hollyhocks which apparently tortoises like, lots of grape vines, sunflowers, and echinacea to name only a few of the varieties I grow in my yard. I even have a beautiful cactus garden that is loaded with blooms and prickly pear fruit every year. I am a bit of an obsessed gardener. I have a cool dark basement to hibernate a tortoise in in the winter...but alas, it sounds like the legalities of it might be more than we can deal with. Maybe I will call the Desert Museum too and find out the scoop on their end.

While all of us would be and likely will be sad to let him go, I would be even more sad if he was seized from us and my parents fined as they move on to this new era in life. They have lived in that house since I was 5. It was a big deal to move out and I am so glad they are doing it while they are still healthy vibrant people who can enjoy retirement. I would hate for something like this to cause harm to the tortoise or to them.

I will update when we get it figured out. I told my mother that I thought it best for them to get it sorted out sooner rather than later ...while in hibernation still. He has never hibernated in a box. He had a den/burrow on a hill in my parents' yard so all of this is kind of uncharted territory.


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