# Please help! Rat bite wounds



## msgreentea (Jan 4, 2016)

I have a desert tortoise who was recently attacked by rats while he was hibernating. I think we found him hours after the attack. He was badly injured to all 4 of his limbs but his head and tail appear fine. We initially thought he was dead and kept him inside a car in a box to be buried the next day. However, the next morning, we realized he had his limbs back inside his shell (movement). We took him to the vet but unfortunately the vet said he's not sure if our tortoise is dead or alive but he thinks the tortoise is dead but as he is hibernating, the vet said he couldn't tell but either way there is nothing he can do. So we took him home and cleaned up his wounds with tea tree oil and witch hazel and bandaged him up. Yesterday, I applied honey to his wounds as I read that in cases of emergency this is how you can treat tortoises. He is still tightly curled up in his shell so I can't tell if he's still hibernating. I also don't know what to do if he's still hibernating. I don't want to wake him up fully since he's so badly injured that I fear it would stress him and make him more sick. But at the same time, I don't know if treating a wounded tortoise while he's hibernating is going to help him at all.


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## G-stars (Jan 4, 2016)

I can't offer much help as far as rehabilitation. However from what I've witnessed, dead tortoises will have limp limbs. 

If it was me I would warm him up and soak him. Maybe offer some food. And just keep the wounds clean.


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## G-stars (Jan 4, 2016)

By the way, I'm sorry this happened. I wish your tortoise the best.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jan 4, 2016)

My money would be that he is alive.
If your vet can't tell if it's dead or not, get a new vet.
It wouldn't hurt to dab some general antibiotic ointment on the wounds until you can get him better help.
Never bury a dead tortoise. (If there is any question about it being dead.) Many times, they are not dead.
It happened to me. I had one die and today she is a happy and healthy thriving girl.


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## yillt (Jan 4, 2016)

msgreentea said:


> I have a desert tortoise who was recently attacked by rats while he was hibernating. I think we found him hours after the attack. He was badly injured to all 4 of his limbs but his head and tail appear fine. We initially thought he was dead and kept him inside a car in a box to be buried the next day. However, the next morning, we realized he had his limbs back inside his shell (movement). We took him to the vet but unfortunately the vet said he's not sure if our tortoise is dead or alive but he thinks the tortoise is dead but as he is hibernating, the vet said he couldn't tell but either way there is nothing he can do. So we took him home and cleaned up his wounds with tea tree oil and witch hazel and bandaged him up. Yesterday, I applied honey to his wounds as I read that in cases of emergency this is how you can treat tortoises. He is still tightly curled up in his shell so I can't tell if he's still hibernating. I also don't know what to do if he's still hibernating. I don't want to wake him up fully since he's so badly injured that I fear it would stress him and make him more sick. But at the same time, I don't know if treating a wounded tortoise while he's hibernating is going to help him at all.


That sounds terrible. I'm very sorry. You need to take him out of hibernation immediately and warm him up. You also need to find a reptile vet because your other one doesn't seem very experienced. Good luck and I REALLY hope he gets better.


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## Pearly (Jan 4, 2016)

Oh, my goodness! This is terrible! I am so sorry for the poor tort and you to have to deal with this. I have no experience in tort rehab but hoopefully @yvonne chimes in soon to give you some advise. The vet was not much help, was he?! The only thing that comes to mind is if you are able to get access if the wounds treat them with antibiotic ointment and keep them clean, but I'd have no idea what to do if the tort is all pulled inside the shell. Hang on. Hopefully Yvonne and others check in here soon


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## Kori5 (Jan 4, 2016)

Please get another vet opinion!!!


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## MPRC (Jan 4, 2016)

It is definitely time to find a better vet. Hopefully someone on the forum can point you in the right direction - where are you located? 
I am not experienced with hibernating species of tortoises, but I feel like I'm order to heal he is likely going to have to be woken up, warmed up and kept up all winter. I am just basing this on what I know about wound treatment in reptiles in general, not specific knowledge of desert torts. 
Good luck.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 4, 2016)

Hi, and welcome to the Forum! It's good that you found us before you buried your tortoise.

We used to hear a lot about rats attacking hibernating desert tortoises - not so much lately. I'm so sorry this happened to your tortoise. My money is on him being alive, just terribly traumatized. If it were my tortoise I would put him in an area of the house where he can warm up slowly for a few days, then position a light over the edge of his container and turn it on for about 8 hours a day for a few days, then set him up in an indoor habitat with lights (on for 14 hours a day), heat, hiding place, feeding station and water.

Soak him in warm water daily until he's fully awake.

Hopefully the chew damage isn't terribly bad. Once you get him fully awake, he'll need another vet visit to get some antibiotics so he doesn't get infection.

Good luck. I hope it turns out well. Can we see pictures? And please tell us where the tortoise was hibernating and how. It's a learning experience for us.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 4, 2016)

This is an old list, but these vets have been recommended by a good tortoise scientist, Dr. Kristin Berry:

Las Vegas

Joanne Stephanatos, DVM
Animal Kingdom Veterinary Hospital
1325 Vegas Valley Dr.
Las Vegas, NV 89169
(702) 735-7184

Toby Goldman, DVM
Island Pet Hospital
7025 W. Ann Road #130
Las Vegas, NV 89130
(702) 645-7387

Jason Sulliban, DVM
Jamie Sulliban, DVM
Christine Kolmstetter, DVM
Aloha Animal Hospital
7341 S. Torrey Pines
Las Vegas, NV 89139
(702) 567-5222

Terri Fujikawa, DVM
Gentle Doctor Animal Hospital
1550 S. Rainbow Blvd.
Las Vegas, NV 89146
(702) 259-9200

Michael Williams, DVM
Southwest Animal Hospital
6101 W. Tropicana Ave.
Las Vegas, NV 89103
(702) 367-6700

Dudley Pflaum, DVM
Horizon Veterinary Clinic
601 Greenway Rd
Henderson, NV 89002
(702) 558-4552

George Stoecklin, DVM
North Las Vegas Animal Hospital
2437 E. Cheyenne Ave.
North Las Vegas, NV 89030
(702) 642-5353

Randy Winn, DVM
Black Mt. Animal Hospital
400 College Dr., Suite A
Henderson. NV 89015
(702)565-6558

Sharon Gorman, DVM
Creature Comforts Animal Hospital
5741 Sky Pointe Dr.
Las Vegas, NV 89130
(702) 658-7339

Deborah Ann White, DVM
Jacqueline Shoppa, DVM
Mary Lee, DVM
Jennifer Kress, DVM
Lone Mt. Animal Hospital
6688 W. Cheyenne Ave.
Las Vegas, NV 89108
(702) 645-3116

Dominic Cacioppo, DVM
Park Animal Hospital
8400 S. Eastern Ave.
Henderson, NV 89123
(702) 361-5850


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## Tom (Jan 4, 2016)

And this is just one of the many reasons I keep saying its not safe to hibernate them outside…

M. Greentea, its fine if you want to experiment with all the holistic stuff on your own wounds and maladies, but you tortoise needs proper medical care. Wash all that food stuff off of him and scrub out the wounds with beta dine or hydrogen peroxide. Let them dry and apply some triple antibiotic ointment.

You are going to need to set up a large indoor enclosure with heat lamps on timers and the whole bit. I'd keep him on newspaper or towels until the wounds heal up a bit. After he warms up for a day or two, you'll need to do some daily soaks for while. Within a few days he will probably be ready to eat again.

If he heals up and is fine by next fall, talk to us about how to safely hibernate him indoors next time.

P.S. Where are you? I have a big 4x8' plywood enclosure you can borrow if you need it.


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## Loohan (Jan 4, 2016)

Tom said:


> M. Greentea, its fine if you want to experiment with all the holistic stuff on your own wounds and maladies, but you tortoise needs proper medical care. Wash all that food stuff off of him and scrub out the wounds with beta dine or hydrogen peroxide. Let them dry and apply some triple antibiotic ointment.



What determines "proper" medical "care" is PROFITABILITY, not effectiveness. Unadulterated raw honey (not the stuff mostly sold in grocery stores) has a broader antibiotic action than med-ointment.


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## SteveW (Jan 4, 2016)

Loohan said:


> What determines "proper" medical "care" is PROFITABILITY, not effectiveness. Unadulterated raw honey (not the stuff mostly sold in grocery stores) has a broader antibiotic action than med-ointment.



Actually, I'd say "proper medical care" is defined by demonstrated and quantified efficacy as well as some semblance of dose/response and toxicity data. If honey indeed has antibacterial properties, how would you determine the appropriate dose? Also, bee hives frequently get wiped out by a bacterial disease colloquially called Foul Brood. Apparently the honey doesn't help. Conversely, Terramycin does. 

Anyway, back to the OP, best of luck on finding a good vet and I hope things work out for your DT.


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## Jodie (Jan 4, 2016)

So sorry this has happened and hoping for the best for you.


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## Lyn W (Jan 4, 2016)

Poor thing! I have a leopard with a foot missing no idea how it happened though - before I took him in - he copes well but I hope your tort makes a full recovery, and if you follow the advice from the voices of experience here I'm sure he will stand a good chance,
Good luck to you both.


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## msgreentea (Jan 4, 2016)

Hi everyone! Thank you so much for the information and support! I greatly appreciate the help! I'm amazed how quickly everyone responded. Thank you! 

Our tortoise is probably in his 30s. He's a big fella and weighs about 15 pounds. We've had him for about 10 years and he hibernates every single year. This is the first year he's had issues during hibernation. The rats must have been really hungry when they wandered into our yard and chewed open his tightly bundled home. He is horribly injured on all 4 limbs and I think the first vet we went to didn't want to bother doing anything. When he told me our tortoise was dead, I cried a river in his office and it was a bit traumatic. 

Those that ask about the honey I used. I had used raw manuka honey, which is a medical honey that I read into. It is ridiculously expensive so I hope I got the good stuff. I've read many reviews that doctors have recommended this for treatment before and it treats better than some antibiotics so I hope it does what it claims to do. Supposedly it's antifungal, antiviral, antibacterial, and is an antibiotic. He's had it on for about 24 hours now. He's been in a box with blankets on a table in an unheated room for the past few days. I have buckets of water around his box as I'm afraid to soak him but want to make sure the air isn't dry. I've set all sorts of tape and traps around his box just to make sure he's safe. 

Yvonne G Thank you for the information and list of Vets. The first vet we went to was the last person on that list (Park Animal Hospital). It was a terrible experience and I didn't get a sense that the vet really cared. When I first called them, they told me to bring our tortoise in immediately even though I already told the that he's hibernating. I drove the 30 minutes to them and they made us anxiously wait 40 minute while the vet was out to lunch. When the vet came back, he just leaned on the door and said our tortoise is long gone but he can't tell since he's hibernating. Even if he wasn't dead, there isn't much he can do. Then he charged me $53 for telling me my tortoise is dead. I felt he was really just about money than sincere care of animals. 

I called another vet on the list from Gentle Doctor Animal Hospital today. Dr. Fujikawa was very nice and helpful. She told me how to carefully wake him up in the next few days by slowly bringing up the temperature and then take him to her for antibiotic treatment once he's more out of his shell. She had also recommended soaking him in case he's dehydrated but some of his wounds are to the bones so I'm super worried.


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## leigti (Jan 4, 2016)

It sounds like your second vet is good. Thanks for the review on the first one. Maybe we should do an overall review of the vet list and get rid of the ones that are any good. Sometimes that's MoveOn and change clinics etc. and people don't know that.
Anyway, if this was my tortoise I would clean the wounds, rinse him off thoroughly, then apply Betadine. I would only use the Betadine once then apply an antibiotic Ointment. Repeated use of Betadine or peroxide is not good either but I think once would be fine. Ask the vet about it. I hope your tortoise will be OK.


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## leigti (Jan 4, 2016)

By the way, I have nothing against natural remedies however I think a good mixture of Eastern and Western medicine so to speak is warranted.


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## Loohan (Jan 5, 2016)

SteveW said:


> Actually, I'd say "proper medical care" is defined by demonstrated and quantified efficacy as well as some semblance of dose/response and toxicity data. If honey indeed has antibacterial properties, how would you determine the appropriate dose? Also, bee hives frequently get wiped out by a bacterial disease colloquially called Foul Brood. Apparently the honey doesn't help. Conversely, Terramycin does.
> 
> Anyway, back to the OP, best of luck on finding a good vet and I hope things work out for your DT.



I used to believe as you do when i was 20 (42 years ago) but life and experience have made a realist of me.
That is interesting that bacteria can even evolve a strain that thrives on honey. Bacteria can do all sorts of amazing things. Some survive hundreds of degrees temperatures.
Although i am not an authority, i wager that many botanical extracts (e.g. eucalyptus, goldenseal, garlic...) might well take care of this Foul Brood strain at least as well as Terramycin, except for the costs/logistics involved.

If my turtle had wounds, raw honey is what i would be using.


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## Carol S (Jan 5, 2016)

I hope your tortoise makes a full recovery. Please keep the Forum posted on his progress.


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## Jodie (Jan 5, 2016)

How is he doing? Hope you will keep us updated.


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