# Tortoise Enrichment



## jsheffield (Nov 16, 2018)

Hello,

A person in a FB rf tort group posted a picture that made me think ....




They filed this dog toy, a ball, with chopped greens and fruit, which the redfoots pushed around to get the food to fall out so they could eat it.

Lots of zoos have enrichment strategies they use with their animals to keep them from getting bored, to stimulate, to simulate a life with more challenge.

What do you think about enrichment ... what do you do for enrichment?

Thanks,

Jamie


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## T Smart (Nov 16, 2018)

Another easy one is to place food in different parts of the enclosure. It allows tortoises to forage for food instead of simply having it placed in the same area everyday.


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## NorCal tortoise guy (Nov 16, 2018)

I have heard about enrichment In zoos and totally get it but I'm not too sure it would apply to reptiles the same way. Just seems to me they don't think the same way. I'm very interested to see what others have to say.


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## JoesMum (Nov 16, 2018)

I think this isn’t enrichment... it’s stress. We have had this debate many times. 

Balls, flower pots, buckets, shoes, the lawn mower, the drain cover, the wheelie bin all get shoved by torts... so do other torts and humans that aren’t welcome in their territory. 

Joe, my tort, isn’t alone in treating them all the same. OK maybe he hated the lawn mower most and mated with some of the others more than he rammed them, but it isn’t play or enrichment.


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## TechnoCheese (Nov 16, 2018)

I definitely think reptiles can be enriched. A ball python in a small tub with nothing but a hide, a water bowl, and paper towels generally shows less behavior or interest than one in a nicely furnished one with branches to climb and such. While there might not be an amazing difference, I do think it’s fun to experiment with enrichment.

I’ve actually been planning to do something like this, but I haven’t been in a pet store for a while, lol. Seems like it could be interesting.(but then again, knowing Curtis, he would probably just try to eat the ball  )


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## TechnoCheese (Nov 16, 2018)

On the other reptile site I moderate, we created a few posts over reptile enrichment, if anyone’s interested. I did the tortoise section.

http://aminoapps.com/p/ksayb3
http://aminoapps.com/p/slya9s
http://aminoapps.com/p/ld812t
http://aminoapps.com/p/vr2ff7


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## jsheffield (Nov 16, 2018)

TechnoCheese said:


> On the other reptile site I moderate, we created a few posts over reptile enrichment, if anyone’s interested. I did the tortoise section.
> 
> http://aminoapps.com/p/ksayb3
> http://aminoapps.com/p/slya9s
> ...



Thanks, I'll take a look.

J


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## JoesMum (Nov 16, 2018)

I don’t confuse enrichment with a properly setup enclosure for a tortoise ... just clarifying my position. 

Having plants to hide under, plants to graze and suitable shelters, digging in spots and soaking places and plenty of space to patrol and look for food naturally is what they need.


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## Maro2Bear (Nov 16, 2018)

The ball with food inside that the torts struggle to get at is like having a locked and latched cookie jar on your desk.


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## jsheffield (Nov 16, 2018)

Maro2Bear said:


> The ball with food inside that the torts struggle to get at is like having a locked and latched cookie jar on your desk.



OMG!

My wife's been doing that to me for years ... [emoji16]

J


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## JoesMum (Nov 16, 2018)

jsheffield said:


> OMG!
> 
> My wife's been doing that to me for years ... [emoji16]
> 
> J


Do you consider it enrichment or does it make you stressed?  [emoji23]


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## Yvonne G (Nov 16, 2018)

I think chasing a ball around trying to get at the food inside is stressful for a tortoise. I wouldn't do it. What I would do would be to go to the stationery store and buy some clips:







Then clip them all around in different locations in the enclosure with greens in them, up high so the tortoise has to reach up to eat.


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## jsheffield (Nov 16, 2018)

JoesMum said:


> Do you consider it enrichment or does it make you stressed?  [emoji23]






J


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## drew54 (Nov 16, 2018)

I've actually thought about doing that. However, I would make it an option for the tort. What I mean is that I would have the same food on the fish as I would in the toy. If it chooses the toy then I would imagine the tort wants to do it.

I think this way letting the tort choose would almost eliminate the stress. When the tort is done it can eat from the dish if it chooses to. 

I do think that just putting a toy with food in it without the option would be very stressful for the tort especially if can't pull any food out. 

I don't think this is really much different than hanging food, hiding it, etc. As long as food is always available in the dish and the tort can choose.


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## JoesMum (Nov 16, 2018)

Hiding it is one thing. Using a ball is quite another. The ball is interpreted as an invader of territory as any owner of older torts will tell you.

Having live plants they can browse is encouraging natural behaviour that doesn't stress them. Sink the plant pot into the substrate with a half inch of rim showing. They occasional tray of 'living lettuce' from a supermarket goes down a treat.


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## drew54 (Nov 16, 2018)

By that logic you couldn't put anything I the enclosure but plants. The water and food dishes are invaders, the fake plants, the plastic hide, etc are all invaders and would do the same thing as a ball. Even hanging food up with a clip would be viewed as invader if no food was on the clip. 

If you present these things to them as adults I'm sure the level of stress is more intensified if these things were never introduced as hatchlings, but even so the adults are highly capable of adapting. 

Captive bred hatchlings aren't exposed to anything but walls, food, water, light, heat, substrate of some kind or cloth /paper towel, etc. They are exposed to these new things all at once and they have giant humans man handling them. After a few weeks they are placed in another area with more walls, light, heat, substrate, etc. Which is all stressful to them. My point is these animals adapt and putting objects of any kind be it fake plants, stones, new substrate, food dish, etc is stressful until they adapt and get used to it. 

Toys and alike are no different.


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## JoesMum (Nov 16, 2018)

But they don't play with these things. They challenge them until they decide they're safe... which may take a very long time. If an object is being constantly rammed or pushed then it isn't being treated as part of the environment and is causing stress.


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## drew54 (Nov 16, 2018)

Agreed, but not all hatchlings will respond with aggression like that. And if they do respond with aggression then you remove the item. No, reptile don't "play", but adding any object in the enclosure as a hatchling could help the tort adjust easier in the long run. I added a fake plant and an aquarium crashed ufo piece and a little practice golf ball. My hatchling sniffed the objects and that was that. She bumps into the stuff every once in a while, but she goes torting on. I understand I'm a beginner owner and because my hatchling responds differently that I also fully understand that it doesn't set the standard for tortoise behavior. I'm just giving my thoughts nothing more.


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## Jnics10 (Nov 21, 2018)

Ok, so here's my anecdote:
My little guy (RF, male, unknown age, probably around 10ish years old) will make up "games" for himself. I mean, like, beyond humping everything in his enclosure. One thing I catch him doing quite often when we're outside is holding a stick down with his arms and picking the end up with his beak and snapping it against a hard surface, like a rock. It's almost like... he enjoys the noise it makes??? 

He's got lots of toys in his enclosure, including the ball filled with treats in question, as well as a rubber duckie (which he plays with a lot), a plastic dinosaur, a couple smaller balls, and a mirror hanging on the wall (which he will sit and stare at for HOURS). He doesn't ram them or seem stressed out by them at all--he actually seems to enjoy them. He moves them around, gets freaky with them (he is a teenager after all), boops them, falls asleep next to them, sometimes I find him piling a few into one of his hides. But, I did introduce these toys cautiously, over time, and alongside his favorite foods. 

I think it's all about trying different things and seeing what works and what doesn't. 

Just my 2 cents


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## drew54 (Nov 21, 2018)

Jnics10 said:


> Ok, so here's my anecdote:
> My little guy (RF, male, unknown age, probably around 10ish years old) will make up "games" for himself. I mean, like, beyond humping everything in his enclosure. One thing I catch him doing quite often when we're outside is holding a stick down with his arms and picking the end up with his beak and snapping it against a hard surface, like a rock. It's almost like... he enjoys the noise it makes???
> 
> He's got lots of toys in his enclosure, including the ball filled with treats in question, as well as a rubber duckie (which he plays with a lot), a plastic dinosaur, a couple smaller balls, and a mirror hanging on the wall (which he will sit and stare at for HOURS). He doesn't ram them or seem stressed out by them at all--he actually seems to enjoy them. He moves them around, gets freaky with them (he is a teenager after all), boops them, falls asleep next to them, sometimes I find him piling a few into one of his hides. But, I did introduce these toys cautiously, over time, and alongside his favorite foods.
> ...


The issue with reptiles and these seemingly enjoyable moments and behaviors is that because they don't have a hippocampus (the part of the brain that's believed to control emotions, learning, etc.) it's believed they are incapable of these things. Also, since we can't tell how a tortoise thinks and feels we assume that the observable behaviors that we can't explain outside of basic instinct is in fact that basic instinct we understand and observe frequently. This leading to the conclusion that we owners, enthusiasts, and alike humanize these creatures and in doing so we see the behaviors that wee want to see. Like a self fulfilling prophecy. 

I'm sure they do find things interesting, amusing, etc. Definitely not to the extent that we do though. But until we are able to get inside a reptiles head we will never know.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Nov 21, 2018)

My Leopard pen has a dry river bed deviding it in half. Leopards always want to be on the other side ! And the others have their pens devided in thirds with the center third 2inches higher then the two ends so they have to climb up to get to the other end !


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## DesertGirl (Nov 21, 2018)

drew54 said:


> The issue with reptiles and these seemingly enjoyable moments and behaviors is that because they don't have a hippocampus (the part of the brain that's believed to control emotions, learning, etc.) it's believed they are incapable of these things. Also, since we can't tell how a tortoise thinks and feels we assume that the observable behaviors that we can't explain outside of basic instinct is in fact that basic instinct we understand and observe frequently. This leading to the conclusion that we owners, enthusiasts, and alike humanize these creatures and in doing so we see the behaviors that wee want to see. Like a self fulfilling prophecy.
> 
> I'm sure they do find things interesting, amusing, etc. Definitely not to the extent that we do though. But until we are able to get inside a reptiles head we will never know.



If a tortoise, or any animal, human,etc., can’t learn, they won’t survive. They have to learn where the food is, where’s the water and where did I dig that burrow? Our DT has learned what doors are, stares at the doorknob. If we don’t get there fast enough, she clicks her nails repeatedly on the metal flashing to get our attention. She has learned to take her little hat off its stand when she wants out, she loves car rides and walks on a leash. I fully believe in mental stimulation.


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## drew54 (Nov 21, 2018)

DesertGirl said:


> If a tortoise, or any animal, human,etc., can’t learn, they won’t survive. They have to learn where the food is, where’s the water and where did I dig that burrow? Our DT has learned what doors are, stares at the doorknob. If we don’t get there fast enough, she clicks her nails repeatedly on the metal flashing to get our attention. She has learned to take her little hat off its stand when she wants out, she loves car rides and walks on a leash. I fully believe in mental stimulation.


I absolutely agree. That's pretty impressive cognitive power there.


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## Jnics10 (Nov 22, 2018)

DesertGirl said:


> If a tortoise, or any animal, human,etc., can’t learn, they won’t survive. They have to learn where the food is, where’s the water and where did I dig that burrow? Our DT has learned what doors are, stares at the doorknob. If we don’t get there fast enough, she clicks her nails repeatedly on the metal flashing to get our attention. She has learned to take her little hat off its stand when she wants out, she loves car rides and walks on a leash. I fully believe in mental stimulation.




My lil guy loves car rides too, or at least his body language while we're in the car is similar to that of other "enjoyable" activities (like when I give him "treat" fruits like bananas). 

But yeah, drew54, you're absolutely correct, we have no idea what's going on in their little heads. 

Why don't we have the technology to read animals' minds yet?! I mean come on, it's almost 2019!!!


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## drew54 (Nov 22, 2018)

Jnics10 said:


> My lil guy loves car rides too, or at least his body language while we're in the car is similar to that of other "enjoyable" activities (like when I give him "treat" fruits like bananas).
> 
> But yeah, drew54, you're absolutely correct, we have no idea what's going on in their little heads.
> 
> Why don't we have the technology to read animals' minds yet?! I mean come on, it's almost 2019!!!


That's a whole different discussion right there. There are some very interesting military tech geared toward animal communication.


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## drew54 (Nov 22, 2018)

I've been thinking about attaching another larger rub to the main enclosure. To make it one bigger and two to provide a little more enrichment. I was thinking about adding more hides, plants, and maybe some small length tunnels to crawl through. I think the "tunnel" idea has me intrigued. 

I think in a way the tunnels would simulate a burrow and provide a more interesting hide spots to explore. I don't think they need to be elaborate or very long like say a hamster tunnel system, but I think it would be something worth trying out.


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## DesertGirl (Nov 22, 2018)

drew54 said:


> I've been thinking about attaching another larger rub to the main enclosure. To make it one bigger and two to provide a little more enrichment. I was thinking about adding more hides, plants, and maybe some small length tunnels to crawl through. I think the "tunnel" idea has me intrigued.
> 
> I think in a way the tunnels would simulate a burrow and provide a more interesting hide spots to explore. I don't think they need to be elaborate or very long like say a hamster tunnel system, but I think it would be something worth trying out.



Try some elevation changes too. Frisbee loves to climb. She’s always climb over a rock than go around. The hard way seems the fun way to her!


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## drew54 (Nov 22, 2018)

DesertGirl said:


> Try some elevation changes too. Frisbee loves to climb. She’s always climb over a rock than go around. The hard way seems the fun way to her!



I thought about getting these foam half balls and using them to shape the terrain into some hills and making the second micro climate a little more natural like. Maybe Nyx will enjoy the two different areas.

My first tortoise loved to climb over and through everything. Nyx, my second, doesn't seem to interested in anything.


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## DesertGirl (Nov 22, 2018)

I say do it! We have a 4’ x 8’ rock garden that she loves to motor through. She’ll select the most difficult path possible. We rearrange the rocks periodically.


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## drew54 (Nov 22, 2018)

DesertGirl said:


> I say do it! We have a 4’ x 8’ rock garden that she loves to motor through. She’ll select the most difficult path possible. We rearrange the rocks periodically.



I read that rearranging the items in the enclosure is also suggested to keep them exploring. Do you find this helpful in anyway?


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## JoesMum (Nov 23, 2018)

drew54 said:


> I read that rearranging the items in the enclosure is also suggested to keep them exploring. Do you find this helpful in anyway?


It depends on your tortoise. Quite a lot of them don't handle change well. If you keep changing things round then it all has to be checked out for invaders again and some tortoises find this stressful.


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## drew54 (Nov 23, 2018)

JoesMum said:


> It depends on your tortoise. Quite a lot of them don't handle change well. If you keep changing things round then it all has to be checked out for invaders again and some tortoises find this stressful.



The post mentioned that also. What kind of things do you put in your habitats?


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## JoesMum (Nov 23, 2018)

drew54 said:


> The post mentioned that also. What kind of things do you put in your habitats?


My tort is an outside roamer. No indoor habitat. 

The obvious things are plants. Live ones grow best in pots that are sunk into the substrate with a half inch of rim showing. Once they're eaten and/or trampled the pot makes it easier to replace them.

In a large enclosure, log roll lawn edging can be used as an effective sight barrier and to make paths through the enclosure


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## Tim Carlisle (Nov 23, 2018)

JoesMum said:


> My tort is an outside roamer. No indoor habitat.
> 
> The obvious things are plants. Live ones grow best in pots that are sunk into the substrate with a half inch of rim showing. Once they're eaten and/or trampled the pot makes it easier to replace them.
> 
> In a large enclosure, log roll lawn edging can be used as an effective sight barrier and to make paths through the enclosure



Got any pics of your outdoor enclosure? I love to see it.


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## drew54 (Nov 23, 2018)

That was my next question.


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## JoesMum (Nov 23, 2018)

Mizcreant said:


> Got any pics of your outdoor enclosure? I love to see it.



It’s my entire garden. He had free range over all of it except the patio. 

Sadly, Joe had to be put to sleep last year after 47 years with us after succumbing to an internal tumour [emoji22]


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## Tim Carlisle (Nov 23, 2018)

JoesMum said:


> It’s my entire garden. He had free range over all of it except the patio.
> 
> Sadly, Joe had to be put to sleep last year after 47 years with us after succumbing to an internal tumour [emoji22]


I sawry


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## TammyJ (Nov 23, 2018)

drew54 said:


> I've actually thought about doing that. However, I would make it an option for the tort. What I mean is that I would have the same food on the fish as I would in the toy. If it chooses the toy then I would imagine the tort wants to do it.
> 
> I think this way letting the tort choose would almost eliminate the stress. When the tort is done it can eat from the dish if it chooses to.
> 
> ...


Maybe the tort does not actually "choose" anything as we think of a choice. Maybe he sees the food in the dish and in the toy, but thinks of the toy as if it was another tort holding on to what should be HIS food, and attacks it.


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## TammyJ (Nov 23, 2018)

And how about this "stress" thing? How do we know if our tortoise is stressed? I mean, apart from an obvious thing like just after being dropped five feet onto concrete, or just after being taken out of the dog's mouth?


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## JoesMum (Nov 23, 2018)

The first sign of stress is a change in behaviour. Going off food, hiding away, ramming an object (territorial behaviour), scarbbling at boundaries...

You need to learn what your tort is like when relaxed and happy (the sprawl with all limbs splayed, and other behaviours) to see the stress. 

A tortoises's unstressed day involves basking, browsing for food, snoozing, checking the boundaries for an incomers, eating, basking and more basking. They're never happier than grazing some clover or chomping the heads off dandelions.


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## drew54 (Nov 23, 2018)

TammyJ said:


> Maybe the tort does not actually "choose" anything as we think of a choice. Maybe he sees the food in the dish and in the toy, but thinks of the toy as if it was another tort holding on to what should be HIS food, and attacks it.


Wee may never actually know without getting in their heads and knowing how they think and feel.


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## Joma (Nov 23, 2018)

I think that moderate stress can produce resilience. Anything new or unusual produces stress, adaptive behavior and then increased resilience in most individuals and, on a meta level, in species. Its a good thing! The trick is finding that "moderate" place - some, but not too much. In zoos, animal shelters etc it is easy to see the result of "too much" and the resulting severe stress responses. Agree with @JoesMum that a disruption to normal, basic life sustaining activities would be a severe stress response in tortoises. I say stick a ball full of food in their enclosure and let em struggle a little, as long as they have alternative food sources and continue to access them.


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## LaLaP (Nov 24, 2018)

One of my torts likes to slide... I built a 2nd story loft for my Russian's enclosure and I was experimenting with ramp angle. I used a long box that my fluorescent tubes came in which happens to be just a little bigger than my tortoise. After I got the length and angle right he would go up and then slide back down over and over. I had meant to add something for some grip on the bottom but he seems to like sliding so much I've just left it. This has to be for enjoyment, right?


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## drew54 (Nov 24, 2018)

Joma said:


> I think that moderate stress can produce resilience. Anything new or unusual produces stress, adaptive behavior and then increased resilience in most individuals and, on a meta level, in species. Its a good thing! The trick is finding that "moderate" place - some, but not too much. In zoos, animal shelters etc it is easy to see the result of "too much" and the resulting severe stress responses. Agree with @JoesMum that a disruption to normal, basic life sustaining activities would be a severe stress response in tortoises. I say stick a ball full of food in their enclosure and let em struggle a little, as long as they have alternative food sources and continue to access them.



This is where my train of thought is. They are amazing creatures that are very capable of adapting and finding enrichment.


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## drew54 (Nov 24, 2018)

LaLaP said:


> One of my torts likes to slide... I built a 2nd story loft for my Russian's enclosure and I was experimenting with ramp angle. I used a long box that my fluorescent tubes came in which happens to be just a little bigger than my tortoise. After I got the length and angle right he would go up and then slide back down over and over. I had meant to add something for some grip on the bottom but he seems to like sliding so much I've just left it. This has to be for enjoyment, right?



I have seen many torts that like to slide. I don't think they would keep doing it if wasn't enjoyable. Even though they don't have a brain like mammals I do believe they still have the ability to feel things such as enjoyment.


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## PatrickDannyandDanielle (Nov 25, 2018)

When it comes down to it I believe having any wild animal as a pet is to some degree stressfull for them and a selfish act by us.Maybe as humans we have a self centered and incorrect belief that we are better and or smarter than any and all other living creatures in our universe.That being said I care for two Redfoots aquired when I found them left behind in a house I helped clean out after tenants were evicted.What was I to do murder them and think I was putting them out of their misery? I like the idea of trying to enrich their lives as best we can and think each day is a learning experience and all we can do is try the best we can to keep our torts safe, healthy and hopefully happy.Best of luck to each and every member here and of course to your torts as well. 
Patrick


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## mark1 (Nov 25, 2018)

with newer methods of mapping the brain in trying to understand the evolution of the mammalian brain , I believe they are finding more similarities in the function of various structures than previously known ….

let one figure out how to escape , they sure don't forget that ……...


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Nov 26, 2018)

PatrickDannyandDanielle said:


> When it comes down to it I believe having any wild animal as a pet is to some degree stressfull for them and a selfish act by us.Maybe as humans we have a self centered and incorrect belief that we are better and or smarter than any and all other living creatures in our universe.That being said I care for two Redfoots aquired when I found them left behind in a house I helped clean out after tenants were evicted.What was I to do murder them and think I was putting them out of their misery? I like the idea of trying to enrich their lives as best we can and think each day is a learning experience and all we can do is try the best we can to keep our torts safe, healthy and hopefully happy.Best of luck to each and every member here and of course to your torts as well.
> Patrick



I respect what your saying. But why is turtles and torts disappearing on a daily 
Bases ? But red ear sliders doing so well ! Is it because people got in to them ?


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## PatrickDannyandDanielle (Nov 26, 2018)

When it comes down to it I think that as a species the human race is narsasistic at the core and more than likely messed it up for the rest of us.
Speaking for the torts of this world of course


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## PatrickDannyandDanielle (Nov 26, 2018)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> I respect what your saying. But why is turtles and torts disappearing on a daily
> Bases ? But red ear sliders doing so well ! Is it because people got in to them ?


Let's just hope that what we do is not to little to late. Support for places like this where we might learn to better our environment is the least we can do.


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## PatrickDannyandDanielle (Nov 26, 2018)

LaLaP said:


> One of my torts likes to slide... I built a 2nd story loft for my Russian's enclosure and I was experimenting with ramp angle. I used a long box that my fluorescent tubes came in which happens to be just a little bigger than my tortoise. After I got the length and angle right he would go up and then slide back down over and over. I had meant to add something for some grip on the bottom but he seems to like sliding so much I've just left it. This has to be for enjoyment, right?


Now I wonder thinking back to this last summer we were camping and I built a hide out of a new metal garbage can laid down and half filled with soil,moss,leaves and mulch for the torts inside the tent.Danielle would exit the hide by sliding down the ramp I installed.I thought she didn't like the hide and because of her back legs,and the angle of the ramp it was all she could do. But just maybe, and I hope so,she was enjoying herself!


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## drew54 (Nov 26, 2018)

PatrickDannyandDanielle said:


> Now I wonder thinking back to this last summer we were camping and I built a hide out of a new metal garbage can laid down and half filled with soil,moss,leaves and mulch for the torts inside the tent.Danielle would exit the hide by sliding down the ramp I installed.I thought she didn't like the hide and because of her back legs,and the angle of the ramp it was all she could do. But just maybe, and I hope so,she was enjoying herself!


Torts remind me of children, teens, and adults. I have seen many childlike torts with playful like behaviors. I have seen stubborn torts (I have one, she is a princess). I have seen torts that are seemingly wise and old. Whats wrong with her back legs?


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## TammyJ (Nov 27, 2018)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> I respect what your saying. But why is turtles and torts disappearing on a daily
> Bases ? But red ear sliders doing so well ! Is it because people got in to them ?


Can I ask what you mean by your questions, Grandpa Turtle? Do you mean that RES's are surviving better because they are more popular than other turtles and tortoises?
(Red eared sliders must like to slide more than other turtles too...maybe that is how they got that name!)
But anyway, can you elaborate on your questions? I used to keep RES's, babies that I got from the pet shop here in Jamaica, but I very rarely see them being sold here any more, and maybe that is a good thing, if they too are at risk from over-collection by humans.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Nov 28, 2018)

TammyJ said:


> Can I ask what you mean by your questions, Grandpa Turtle? Do you mean that RES's are surviving better because they are more popular than other turtles and tortoises?
> (Red eared sliders must like to slide more than other turtles too...maybe that is how they got that name!)
> But anyway, can you elaborate on your questions? I used to keep RES's, babies that I got from the pet shop here in Jamaica, but I very rarely see them being sold here any more, and maybe that is a good thing, if they too are at risk from over-collection by humans.



People started having and raising RES and their population grew to very large numbers. Now the RES are all over the world in large numbers. Maybe if they would let more people Have endangered torts to raise their numbers would grow the same ![emoji217]


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## mark1 (Nov 28, 2018)

Seen a study on red eared slider populations in a native river system , I believe in the rio grand , it showed a population decline due to urbanization ……… as far as being introduced into other habitat , it’s been at the expense of native species , particularly native turtle populations not as aggressive , adaptable or prolific …….


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## PharSytid (Nov 28, 2018)

drew54 said:


> The issue with reptiles and these seemingly enjoyable moments and behaviors is that because they don't have a hippocampus (the part of the brain that's believed to control emotions, learning, etc.) it's believed they are incapable of these things. Also, since we can't tell how a tortoise thinks and feels we assume that the observable behaviors that we can't explain outside of basic instinct is in fact that basic instinct we understand and observe frequently. This leading to the conclusion that we owners, enthusiasts, and alike humanize these creatures and in doing so we see the behaviors that wee want to see. Like a self fulfilling prophecy.
> 
> I'm sure they do find things interesting, amusing, etc. Definitely not to the extent that we do though. But until we are able to get inside a reptiles head we will never know.


I beg to differ. Each one in my Sulcata trio has shown me definite responses to different things I do. For example, when I pick them up and talk to them, they extend their necks for head rubs; while in their enclosure, they will follow the sound of my voice and come to me; and they almost always give me a smile when I pet their backs. 
I appreciate your comment about their lack of a hippocampus, but I know from my experience with my torts that they can learn, respond and are unique in their personalities. Un-fuzzies affection greatly differs from fuzzies; however, I see it displayed every single day!


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## drew54 (Nov 28, 2018)

PharSytid said:


> I beg to differ. Each one in my Sulcata trio has shown me definite responses to different things I do. For example, when I pick them up and talk to them, they extend their necks for head rubs; while in their enclosure, they will follow the sound of my voice and come to me; and they almost always give me a smile when I pet their backs.
> I appreciate your comment about their lack of a hippocampus, but I know from my experience with my torts that they can learn, respond and are unique in their personalities. Un-fuzzies affection greatly differs from fuzzies; however, I see it displayed every single day!



I was speaking in general. Most people think reptiles are in capable of these things because of having no hippocampus. I on the other hand believe differently and have frequently argued their capabilities in this forum. My job as a behavioral specialist is modification. I see many techniques used for human behavior as I do for animal behavior modification. I do believe any animal can be trained to a degree. I've seen the bond between a owner and his camen, I've seen many things in reptiles that I see in mammals. However, I do know and understand that there are and always will be some limitation to these creatures as we can't fully expect them to feel what we do emotionally. As they may experience human like emotion and feelings but it's hard to fully understand ti what degree.


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## PharSytid (Nov 28, 2018)

drew54 said:


> I was speaking in general. Most people think reptiles are in capable of these things because of having no hippocampus. I on the other hand believe differently and have frequently argued their capabilities in this forum. My job as a behavioral specialist is modification. I see many techniques used for human behavior as I do for animal behavior modification. I do believe any animal can be trained to a degree. I've seen the bond between a owner and his camen, I've seen many things in reptiles that I see in mammals. However, I do know and understand that there are and always will be some limitation to these creatures as we can't fully expect them to feel what we do emotionally. As they may experience human like emotion and feelings but it's hard to fully understand ti what degree.


Touché my friend- I completely agree. Thank you for expanding on your viewpoint.


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## drew54 (Nov 29, 2018)

PharSytid said:


> Touché my friend- I completely agree. Thank you for expanding on your viewpoint.


As far as not having a hippocampus reptiles brains are different, but that doesn't mean that there are other parts of the brain that controls learning, etc. Even with new brain mapping technology I doubt science will dedicate time and interest to use that expensive machine to study reptiles. So, we are left to interpret the behaviors that we see with the understanding off what we already know about reptilian behaviour.


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## McSnotoisethetortoise (Feb 24, 2021)

So I know this is an old thread but I have a few things to say. First, I think to say that tortoises don’t know the difference between an invader and a ball is a bit ridiculous; and I don’t know about you guys but my RF and Russian both, absolutely play. I live in Boston so during the winter we end up turning my dining room into an indoor tortoise enclosure complete with heat sinks, hides, plants, the whole nine yards - trust me when I say I spend more money on making sure it’s the right environment for (specifically) our Red-foot than I do on Chrismas, birthdays, and anniversary combined. My RF loves coming inside because he really enjoys being around things. If you sit on the floor cross-legged he’ll climb in your lap and fall asleep OR nip at your toes/hump your shoes, depending on his mood. As for play, however, we bought him a blue ball that just has a rattle inside it because we were worried that this year - since our plants died due to a bug infestation - he wouldn’t have enough enrichment. Most of the time, he ignores it; but sometimes when we aren’t around you’ll just start hearing the rattle and it’s him either poking it with his nose or walking over it again and again and again. If it gets stuck under a shelf - he’ll start pushing stuff over to draw your attention. 

As for my Russian -he has a penchant for escaping his tortoise box which lives on the floor of our bedroom. He does this, apparently, so that he can play on our back packs. He’ll climb up the part that is against your back like a ramp and then sit at the top for a second like he’s pumping himself up and then launch himself down sliding down the part of the backpack that has the pockets. He’ll do loops and do it over and over again. And we ended up noticing that he only escapes if the backpacks are in view of his enclosure(he’ll push media together to climb out). 

Reptile brains are not inferior to mammal - they are just different. Tortoises and reptiles have personalities and intelegence; i even read about one study where they taught some RFs to push a button on an iPad to get strawberries and the torts were able to repeat the action 6 months later. My advice is not to expect your tortoise to be a dog or a cat or a bunny. It’s a tortoise - but you should take some time to watch it and see what it likes- we ended up putting a little ramp in our Russian‘s box because, after we got a lid and he couldn’t slide down backpacks anymore, he was really lethargic until he started launching himself off the hide He had and flipping himself over every few days.


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