# Ethical Questions?



## terracolson (Oct 16, 2009)

Ethical delimma:
I have fostered a Russian Tortoise for my mother in law. It has the best life here. If i give it back, she will not properly care for it. It will live inside her apt, no lights, she will feed it per the book, with vitamins, and place him in the closet to hibernate.

She only has it cause her son wants one. she sold her last one when she was broke and bought him a new one. he never noticed. So her 11 yr old doesn't really care. 
Do i say it died?
escaped? 
do i talk to my nephew and ask if i can keep it? (he will tell her we spoke)

He is so happy here outside. With her he will live in the apartment roaming around pee and poop where ever, she used to joke her old one hid under teh fridge, she thought it was funny.

I love this little guy. He greets me and loves to be picked up. He is SO personable.

My husband says i have to give it back. Its his mom. She will be here around mid November. HELP!


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## Yvonne G (Oct 16, 2009)

You have to do what's right. The tortoise isn't yours. Can't you talk to her, expressing how much you've fallen in love with the animal and would really like to keep it. Offer to talk to the kid for her to make sure its ok with him if she gives his tortoise away.

Yvonne


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## katesgoey (Oct 16, 2009)

Well, how did you end up "fostering" for them? Maybe the reason itself gives you some idea of how to handle this. But I think you know you can't say it died or escaped because you wouldn't want to have to hide it...and you know how that kind of stuff can backfire on you. You could always explain you've fallen in love with the tortoise and would like to buy it or flat out explain to her and her son that the tortoise is better off with you and they are of course invited to visit, but if they want the best for it, they should let you keep it....oh, or ....tell them you'll have to start charging a boarding fee then if it isn't paid you can keep it for the value owed. The only other course of action if they insist on taking it back would be to buy them a "new" book on how to care for it. Good luck.


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## terracolson (Oct 16, 2009)

yeah I konw that is correct. I ended up fostering it because she is currently homeless. Dont go all sobby, she is the 58 yr old who quit her job, gave her money away to a man in HI, and came to live with us. Then her son came to visit, she bought him for her sons week visit. Then she left and left him here, to pick back up when she comes and gets all her stuff.
She lives in Southern Cailfornia, i live in Nor Cal.

I think I will just give him back and pray he doesnt die under the fridge.


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## Maggie Cummings (Oct 16, 2009)

I think you should stand up for that little tortoise. Level with her, just tell the truth and ask her if you can keep the tortoise. The worst she can do is say no...I think you need to help that tortoise and save him from harm.


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## terryo (Oct 16, 2009)

I agree with Maggie. Beg her to let you keep him...cry a little...do anything. Unfortunately, she will probably go get another one...some day when she has the money again.


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## Weloveourtortoise (Oct 16, 2009)

I'm with Maggie & Terry-- Tell her you fell the the little guy and would think of it as a favour if you could keep him. Tears are always good if she starts to say no.


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## sammi (Oct 21, 2009)

If she bought him for her son, and not for her..do you think she would really care if you wanted to keep him? Just a thought..Maybe if you can show her he'd have a better life with you..she wouldn't reject the idea?


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## Crazy1 (Oct 21, 2009)

I agree with everyone. Talk with her, cry, offer to buy him whatever it takes. Show her the care sheets and what you do for the little guy and let her know it would break your heart to give him up. Offer to talk with her son and reason with him. Also get your Hubby on your side. Talk with him now so he understands what you plan to do and is willing to support you and have him there when you talk to his mom. Moms have trouble saying No to their sons


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## harris (Oct 22, 2009)

Veto! How can she take care of the tortoise when she can't take care of herself? Tell her the tortoise went under your fridge and got stuck up in it somehow. And when (if) she comes back to get him, just make sure you hide him somewhere.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 22, 2009)

Manys the time I've advertised a "found" turtle or tortoise and when the correct owner showed up, realized this person hadn't a clue to proper care of this animal. I would LOVE to be able to say, "Sorry, you can't have the animal as it died yesterday." But I really appreciate the Golden Rule. Do unto others, etc. Instead of not giving the tortoise back, if she won't consider giving you the tortoise, then you have to print out a good care sheet and stress how important it is for the tortoise's life to be taken care of properly. That's all you can do. Educate her and hope it sticks.

Yvonne


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## terracolson (Oct 22, 2009)

thx guys.... after some thought, i will let her take it, if she ask. Since she was supposed to come in Oct, but never showed now its november and shes still homeless, living with different people every day.

I am hoping she finds a place and comes here to get her furniture and forgets about him.

We will see, i will let you know.


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## mctlong (Oct 22, 2009)

What if you bought the kid a puppy? He'd forget all about the tortoise.


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## terracolson (Oct 22, 2009)

I wish a puppy would help. He has been through 4 of them so far. His mom keeps giving them away or they get run over or worse.


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## jhaparth2006 (Oct 23, 2009)

Gift her a new pet,like a puppy or something..a kitten..or something which can be more easily taken care of.

well..its still october!


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## Redfoot NERD (Oct 23, 2009)

I KNOW.. PICK ME.. I'VE GOT AN IDEA:

*BE TOTALLY HONEST*

Of course you take the chance of getting greif from some.. I tend to all of the time.. but the truth is what's best and you'll know you did what's right. 

Terry K


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## Jacqui (Oct 23, 2009)

jhaparth2006 said:


> Gift her a new pet,like a puppy or something..a kitten..or something which can be more easily taken care of.





That would just be taking and putting another animal into a bad situation.

I would not lie to her, lies always come back to haunt you. Sounds like your right and she will forget all about the tortoise. Have you kept track of how much you have spent on her tortoise? Maybe along with being honest about your feelings (and hopefully your husband's), about the care it needs, and about how much she owes, she will just give him to you. Maybe even offer her a little money for the animal.


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## terracolson (Oct 23, 2009)

Jacqui said:


> jhaparth2006 said:
> 
> 
> > Gift her a new pet,like a puppy or something..a kitten..or something which can be more easily taken care of.
> ...





Thats a idea, give her a invoice with the amount due on there for the months of care. I am so sure she will pay that..haha

But i can dream, about it.


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## mctlong (Oct 24, 2009)

Thats an idea. If she sees how much you spend on the tort and how much good care costs, she may be willing to give him to you. If she's having financial issues, she might not want to take on the additional costs of the tort.

As she's already come by once and did not pick up the animal, I'm guessing she might abandon it on you anyways.


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## Shelly (Oct 25, 2009)

She's 58, with an 11 year old kid??


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## terracolson (Oct 27, 2009)

Yes..Actually she turned 59 this year... AS WELl as she has a 35 year old son. My hubby.
Long story short, My hubby was conceived with her using fertility drugs. 
She never had a "cycle" until she went into menopause and then boom. She was pregnant. She tried for 20 years before that.

I then when she got pregnant her husband divorced her after 25 years. took the child away from her and left her on her streets. She lost it, drove into the old house with her car, cut up all the furniture with a knife. She still only has her 11 yr old 2 days a week. And if his dad passes Me and my hubby get custody, not her.

I know to much info...sorry


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## terryo (Oct 27, 2009)

Wow...that is so sad. When we think we have troubles I guess we just have to remember someone always has it worse than we do. I feel so sorry for her child too.


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## -EJ (Nov 8, 2009)

It's not yours... especially if you took it in with the intent of allowing it to go back to it's rightful owner.

I do this all the time... Every adoption I take in comes with the stipulation that the owner can get it back anytime. 

The other thing that bothers me... judging another.



terracolson said:


> Ethical delimma:...


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## jdawn (Nov 8, 2009)

Hi Terra,
Possibly offering to buy the tortoise as someone already suggested might not be a bad idea, because you have lived up to your end of the 'bargain' (fostering the tortoise to this point)-- but by also putting the offer on the table to buy it from her, you may be giving her an option she might appreciate. She certainly has the freewill to choose to take you up on the offer or not. But, as another suggested, it may be that all you can do is try to educate her on how to better care for this tortoise if you are asked to return it. Regardless, you are to be commended for recognizing a situation that is not in the tortoise's best interest and caring enough to make it better (in my opinion, it is not about passing judgment on _her_, but is about the _situation_). Best wishes and good luck to you as you sort this out, Jenny Dawn


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## terracolson (Nov 8, 2009)

Well So far she hasnt come to get him, nor has she even asked about him. He is the only one not hibernating now. Its like he is waiting for her.

So now if he does start hibernating, it is ok if she takes him home right?


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## Stephanie Logan (Nov 8, 2009)

-EJ said:


> It's not yours... especially if you took it in with the intent of allowing it to go back to it's rightful owner.
> 
> I do this all the time... Every adoption I take in comes with the stipulation that the owner can get it back anytime.
> 
> The other thing that bothers me... judging another.




Sorry Ed, but I have to disagree. I hope the woman does what's best for the tortoise, ownership or not!

I see kids who have gone from foster care back to incompetent parents, because biological ("ownership") relationships are given top priority, NOT what's best for the child...

I can and do make judgments and form opinions from that faulty rationale.


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## dmmj (Nov 8, 2009)

How long does it take for under the law for it to be considered abandoned? I am loath to suggest breaking laws, even for a good reason usually have unintended results. Just my 2 cents.


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## -EJ (Nov 9, 2009)

Your judgement is better than mine or the next person? 

That's why chelonian types are solitary entities.

You don't know the circumstance. The person describing that circumstance on this list could be biasing the story. 

In one case where I sold a guy some leopards years ago... he went through a divorce. He couldn't take care of the tortoises. He gave them back to me. They turned out to be two males but a year or two later he asked for one back... luckily for me it was the one I didn't want. 

The point... who are you to judge what is best for the animal.

I've had my run ins with child protective services. Over judgemental people are more of a menace than anything else.



Stephanie Logan said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> > It's not yours... especially if you took it in with the intent of allowing it to go back to it's rightful owner.
> ...


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## Crazy1 (Nov 9, 2009)

Let me step in here regarding being judgments. There are always two sides to a story. terracolson is trying to do the best thing for the tort and is torn between what is right for it and what is right by law? No one should be judging the mother that is not what this thread was really about. I know I work with people everyday that have made bad judgments and acted on them and suffered the consequences of those actions. Sometimes its anger, sometimes a chemical imbalance, sometimes other issues. But none of us are here to judge mom, or any one else. 

Terracolson, I applaud you for trying to do the right thing. I would treat him as my tort for now. If she comes back and asks for him talk with her try and reason with her for the best of the tort. I agree with Terry K and Jacqui (an anyone else who advised you to ) tell the truth at least with that you can never go wrong. Good luck. She may not even contact you for it back. Also if she does I would let her know if he is hibernating it is best to not disturb him until spring. I know I do not move any of mine once they are hibernating. Nor do any of the CTTC members I know of.


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## Stephanie Logan (Nov 9, 2009)

Yes, my judgment is better.

When given the options of being kept under conditions recommended by this forum versus being kept on the floor, under the fridge, possibly being given away to a stranger, as several puppies have, or traveling around with a homeless woman, I absolutely and with no reservations make the judgment that the former is best for the tortoise.

Where would we be as a society if no one ever acted upon their good judgment when an animal's well-being is at stake? Do you oppose the SPCA because they make judgments about the unsuitability of a home?

_________________________________________________________
Your judgement is better than mine or the next person? 

That's why chelonian types are solitary entities.

You don't know the circumstance. The person describing that circumstance on this list could be biasing the story. 

In one case where I sold a guy some leopards years ago... he went through a divorce. He couldn't take care of the tortoises. He gave them back to me. They turned out to be two males but a year or two later he asked for one back... luckily for me it was the one I didn't want. 

The point... who are you to judge what is best for the animal.

I've had my run ins with child protective services. Over judgemental people are more of a menace than anything else.


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## -EJ (Nov 9, 2009)

In some cases I do.

If a person is acting on true judgement... that might work.

There are people who look at it as a job and there are no grey areas. There are rules and nothing more. 

This is the same with the general population.

A Tortoise running loose might not be acceptable to some but would be to others. In fact... it might be better off because it has more control.

Another point... your 'rules' are not the same as mine... who's right.



Stephanie Logan said:


> You are right.
> 
> When given the options of being kept under conditions recommended by this forum versus being kept on the floor, under the fridge, possibly being given away to a stranger, as several puppies have, or traveling around with a homeless woman, I absolutely and with no reservations make the judgment that the former is best for the tortoise.
> 
> ...


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## mctlong (Nov 10, 2009)

-EJ said:


> Your judgement is better than mine or the next person?
> 
> That's why chelonian types are solitary entities.
> 
> ...





Clearly, everyone on this forum wants whats best for the tortoise. 

We're giving Terra our opinions based on the information we have. Ultimately, its on her to do what she thinks is right. In the end, we have no say over what happens to this tort because its between Terra and her mother-in-law, so I see no harm in us judging the situation as we see it. 

Here's my chelonian-type judgemental opinion of the situation given the info we have: 

I don't have to know the tortoise's owner to know that letting a tortoise run loose around a house is not in the tortoise's best interest. Its obvious to me. That may be my opinion, but opinions are what forums are all about (of course, thats my opinion as well  ). If the mother-in-law hasn't picked up the tort yet, she's probably not going to. If she does come back for it and Terra explains that she believes the tort is better off outdoors in a secure backyard, then her mother-in-law may agree and allow her to keep it. Most owners want whats best for their pets.



-EJ said:


> In some cases I do.
> 
> If a person is acting on true judgement... that might work.
> 
> ...




We live in shades of grey. I wish more people in the general population would realize that as well. As this is a forum, everyone should be able to express their opinions (or their rules) whether you agree with those opinions or not.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 10, 2009)

Maybe the offer of $$ would hold some interest for the mother. Offer what you can afford, and offer to buy the tortoise.

Yvonne


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## dmmj (Nov 10, 2009)

I believe there are two sides to every story, though to be fair I am inclined to beleive terrya over the other woman, call me biased if you like.  I just believe that no matter how noble our intentions are, just keeping it and breaking the law is not good. I also believe that we all care about tortoises and want what is best for them, that is why I was curious about how long before legally a tortoise might be considered abandoned, that way a tort can get a new and happy life and no one has to break the law. Of course offering to but the tortoise is also a good idea, that way you can get the turtle, there won't be any hurt feelings and everyone goes awa happy.


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## katesgoey (Nov 10, 2009)

dmmj said:
 

> I believe there are two sides to every story, though to be fair I am inclined to beleive terrya over the other woman, call me biased if you like.  I just believe that no matter how noble our intentions are, just keeping it and breaking the law is not good. I also believe that we all care about tortoises and want what is best for them, that is why I was curious about how long before legally a tortoise might be considered abandoned, that way a tort can get a new and happy life and no one has to break the law. Of course offering to but the tortoise is also a good idea, that way you can get the turtle, there won't be any hurt feelings and everyone goes awa happy.



"legally" - usually abandoned "personal property" (sorry, that's what a tortoise would be considered) is the owners until legal notice is published or served stating that the "property" is considered abandoned and must be claimed by a certain date or it will be "sold" or offered to others. That's why you see public notices from Storage facilities before they sell the contents of unpaid or abandoned storage contents. 

In Terracolson's case, I suggested she start tracking and charging a "boarding" fee for that reason, others have suggested similar ideas - so Terracolson - start keeping a log of the costs (including a value on your time in caring for the tortoise). If and when your mother-in-law wants him back you can show her the costs involve and either ask her for the reimbursement or allow you to keep the tortoise, if that is what you prefer.


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## terracolson (Nov 10, 2009)

Well He is down for the count. Its been a few days since i seen him come out of his home.
She will come back some time, i also have all her clothes and other belongings, but it seems that she wont get an apt as soon as she wants and currently is living with a boyfriend.

So If When she returns, This winter, i will explain to her that he is sleeping with a few of my other russian, burring deep in 5 ft of leaves and i am not NOT disturbing the herd for her. 

She will have to wait till spring to get him back. Period.

In the spring when he awakes, she can drive another 6 hours for him. hump!


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## bikerchicspain (Nov 13, 2009)

I agree with everyone else,I have been in the same situation and i just told him i had grown attached to the tort plus i did tell a white lie on how much the treatment was gonna be. Just tell her if she keeps the tort it is gonna die as she isnt caring for it,also tell her how much it will cost to put special lighting, heating,food, and housing will cost. I find that usualy does the trick. Good luck to you both.Keep us informed.


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## Laura (Nov 13, 2009)

All that worry for nothing.. I doubt she will want it back.. she can visit all she wants!!


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## dmmj (Nov 13, 2009)

Remember a "free" tortoise or turtle is seldom free.


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## terracolson (Feb 9, 2010)

Update!!!!

Well CoCo is awake and she just got a place this month!!! Then she pawned her car, so she cant come up here to get him!
Plus she doesnt want to take care of him, so we can keep him.


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## ChiKat (Feb 9, 2010)

That's wonderful news that you are able to keep him


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## Shelly (Feb 9, 2010)

Never heard of anybody pawning a car before. That's pretty hardcore.


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## alfiethetortoise (Feb 10, 2010)

I didn't know you could pawn a car  but at least you can keep the tortoise so its all good


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## bikerchicspain (Feb 10, 2010)

I am sure you will be very happy together and you will be a great tort mum,Welcome to the family


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## Stephanie Logan (Feb 10, 2010)

That is good news for Coco as well.


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## terryo (Feb 10, 2010)

Great news!...all the worry for nothing.


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