# Anyone ever use Hemlock barkdust/mulch for substrate?



## mightymizz (Aug 9, 2012)

Since I live in the PNW, we just can't get the Cypress Mulch here. I know to stay away from Cedar so I avoided that. I did look at fir, but boy does that stuff give you splinters/slivers really quick, so I passed on that.

The only other stuff I found was the Hemlock.

Is this stuff a definite "Do not use" like cedar? Anyone use this stuff?

I just don't want to use it and wake up to dead torts.

Oh- I will use it with the heat ropes and water to help raise humidity and probably put some Sphagnum moss on top of the hide area of the enclosure.
Thanks,

Mike


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## ssydney (Aug 9, 2012)

Can you get top soil? Or just use all moss? What about a 50/50 mix of sand and coco coir?


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## mightymizz (Aug 10, 2012)

I have tried soil before and it just had too many bugs. I was just double checking on the hemlock to make sure I didn't use something that is an obvious don't use.

Anyone else think it should be fine, or might say pass?

Ok, here is a picture of the hemlock bark for reference. It does not seem to have a chemical smell, but it has that traditional kind of funky barkdust smell.

There is a quarter for reference in picture also.


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## mightymizz (Aug 10, 2012)

bump for adding a picture of the stuff!


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## mightymizz (Aug 11, 2012)

Anyone have "any" thoughts? Good or bad? I also included a picture in a previous post. I could really use some insight here. 

Thanks!!


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## Madkins007 (Aug 11, 2012)

I cannot think of any real reason to avoid it, but have not tried it.

After all, there is nothing magic or special about shredded cypress.


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## mightymizz (Aug 11, 2012)

Mark,

Thanks for your help with this substrate dilemma for me! This hemlock stuff isn't stringy, but it is definitely more of a true barkdust size. 

Now time to order my Heat Ropes!


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## mightymizz (Aug 12, 2012)

I am just not sure now with this stuff. Notice in the picture with the quarter in it, it is very small, and when you pick it up it leaves sliver type pieces of dust. Luckily with Hemlock, for us humans it rarely causes real slivers, but I am wondering if the tort eats his poop off this barkdust he will be also eating small amounts of this wood.

I just keep going back and forth between using this hemlock barkdust or not. 

Would 4 inches of Sphagnum Moss with the heat ropes and water, also provide the same effect to help raise humidity?


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## mightymizz (Aug 12, 2012)

Went to Petco today and saw they had the forest floor which is the only place here to find cypress mulch. To bad it was $20 for a cubic foot of it!!

I might just break down and end up buying some of this stuff as a top layer only because I am afraid that the hemlock bark dust would get eaten when my tortoise eats his poop.

It is just silly that they charge so much for cypress mulch when you can normally buy a 2 cubic foot bag for ~$3-$4.


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## Madkins007 (Aug 12, 2012)

Can you get Douglas fir chunks? Sometimes sold as 'orchid bark'?


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## mightymizz (Aug 12, 2012)

I will look into this Orchid Bark if it might be a better alternative to the Hemlock barkdust. I wasn't aware that it would be a possible alternative. 

I assume that this stuff has been used with success before and would still work with heat ropes to aid in humidity?

I will report back after looking tomorrow.

Thanks!!


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## Redstrike (Aug 13, 2012)

I've contemplated using Hemlock mulch as well, but I know we used to tan leather using compounds found in the magenta hue of this bark so I generally avoid it. It probably wouldn't have any effect on your tortoise(s), but it just makes me uncomfortable to use something with such heavy plant phenolics in it.


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## mightymizz (Aug 13, 2012)

Since this bark thing has been such a dilemma I am thinking about going with the coconut mulch or coir.

I'm thinking of either using it straight, or topping it off with a bag the outrageously expensive "forest floor."

How would this stuff work with water on bottom and the heat ropes to help raise humidity levels?

Any other thoughts for or against the coconut stuff? I know it is just opinions but that's what I'm looking for.

Thanks


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## ssydney (Aug 14, 2012)

mightymizz said:


> Since this bark thing has been such a dilemma I am thinking about going with the coconut mulch or coir.
> 
> I'm thinking of either using it straight, or topping it off with a bag the outrageously expensive "forest floor."
> 
> ...



Water at the bottom would be absorbed by the coir, giving extra humidity. I believe it would be just fine straight, no need for spending an outrageous amount of money. The heat ropes would be completely fine. Nothing against coco coir so good luck!


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## Redstrike (Aug 14, 2012)

mightymizz said:


> Since this bark thing has been such a dilemma I am thinking about going with the coconut mulch or coir.
> 
> I'm thinking of either using it straight, or topping it off with a bag the outrageously expensive "forest floor."
> 
> ...



The mulch is absorbent, but it's not as spongy as coir. My concern is that the coir would wick out the excess water at the bottom, acting like a sponge and creating a very wet substrate throughout. This is contrary to what you want; you want excess water pooled up beneath that the heat ropes evaporate. I don't have much experience with Coir, hopefully others that do will supply more opinions (you've got one positive vote above). 

Like I've said, I can't find Cypress or hardwood mulch anywhere in Maine. Rather than spending lots of money for an alternative, I'm going to grab a shovel and go dig up some soil from my backyard. The trade-off is that it will not work well with the heat ropes; at least not as well as the cypress mulch does. I don't know how I'm going to maintain humidity like I have been with my current cypress & heat rope setup...


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## Madkins007 (Aug 14, 2012)

Redstrike said:


> The mulch is absorbent, but it's not as spongy as coir. My concern is that the coir would wick out the excess water at the bottom, acting like a sponge and creating a very wet substrate throughout. This is contrary to what you want; you want excess water pooled up beneath that the heat ropes evaporate. I don't have much experience with Coir, hopefully others that do will supply more opinions (you've got one positive vote above).
> 
> Like I've said, I can't find Cypress or hardwood mulch anywhere in Maine. Rather than spending lots of money for an alternative, I'm going to grab a shovel and go dig up some soil from my backyard. The trade-off is that it will not work well with the heat ropes; at least not as well as the cypress mulch does. I don't know how I'm going to maintain humidity like I have been with my current cypress & heat rope setup...



I'd mix in sand and some sort of wood mulch to help keep it loose, then try the rope anyway. You may not feel the heat much, but it should still trigger the water to vaporize.


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## mightymizz (Aug 14, 2012)

Ok, so I think I am going to go with the Orchid Bark, which is a "nicer" fir bark than what I can find as "fir" mulch. It does not look as "slivery" and pretty much comes in uniform pieces.

Before my question, let me quickly explain what I'm thinking. I will put pea gravel on very bottom of enclosure about an inch deep, maybe half-inch so that the plastic won't get melted by the heat ropes. On top of the gravel will be my hardware cloth and heat rope. Then I was thinking of using some of the hemlock barkdust for around 2 inches as a foundation, and then the final 2 inches would be the Orchid Bark.

I am thinking of this because you can only buy the Orchid Bark in smaller bags, so it might save a little bit of money.

Would this setup still ideally wick up moisture to help humidity using the different layers as mentioned, or should I just do the entire thing with pure Orchid Bark?

Thanks once again to all who have contributed! I hope that this thread might also give some ideas to other fellow members both now and in the future.


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## Redstrike (Aug 15, 2012)

I say go for it! I'm thinking of doing something similar shortly.


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## Madkins007 (Aug 15, 2012)

Something to consider...

1. Layers make it tough to stir the material to keep things fresh. I cannot believe that your Home Depot type places does not have something similar in big bags- but I've never lived in a place like yours.

2. ANY rocks, etc. will be forced to the surface by the compacting action of the steamrollers... er, I mean, 'tortoises' in the habitat.

3. Putting pebbles, etc. UNDER the heat rope makes a pool of water that may not touch the heat ropes and becomes stagnant. The heat ropes should be as low in the system as possible. Can you lay some glass or something on the plastic and tape the ropes to it?


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## mightymizz (Aug 15, 2012)

Great insight Mark, appreciate it!

I can definitely do just all Orchid Bark in the enclosure. It really shouldn't be that much more money. I think the Black Gold Orchid Bark only comes in the largest size of 1 cubic foot bags.

I could probably get away with putting a very thin/fine layer of orchid bark on plastic and along with the hardware cloth making sure the heat rope wont physically touch the plastic, be fine in not having the plastic melt.

Ideally the water would also help prevent the melting as well.

So I will go 100% Orchid Bark; no layers, no rocks.

This sound like a better, longer term sustainable, yet safe plan?


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## Vegasarah (Aug 15, 2012)

mightymizz said:


> Great insight Mark, appreciate it!
> 
> I can definitely do just all Orchid Bark in the enclosure. It really shouldn't be that much more money. I think the Black Gold Orchid Bark only comes in the largest size of 1 cubic foot bags.
> 
> ...



That sounds like the best plan. I'm no expert by far, but that does seem like it's a good idea. Try not to over-complicate things and you should be just fine.


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## mightymizz (Aug 16, 2012)

Well, I went to order the heat rope and thermostat and BigApple was out of stock on the heat rope and thermometer I wanted.

So I settled for the one size of heat rope they had in stock as well as the thermostat.

I also looked into the Hydrokable, but it appears you have to buy their thermostat to run the cables which I didn't want to do.


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## Redstrike (Aug 19, 2012)

My tortoise enclosures are overdue for an overhaul of substrate and cleaning. I've been looking more into Hemlock mulch, and I'm seeing less of an issue with it than I had previously stated. Hemlock is heavy in tannins, so is cypress. They're in the same order (Pinales) but different families (_Pinaceae_ vs _Cupressaceae_). Because hemlock is in the _Pinaceae_, there are some levels of pine oils (alpha and beta pinenes) shortly after processing the mulch. If you let it sit, it's likely that these will break down and be less of a concern to your tortoises. I picked up a bag today for gardening, took a handful and gave it a good sniff. It's not too "piney" which leads me to think the pine oils are not as heavy as the tannins. 

The only issue I'm running into is that most companies like to add a bit more color to their Hemlock mulch prior to it seeing the market (they don't always put this on their bags). I know Timberline adds a bit of color and that's the primary supplier around Maine. I googled "organinc hemlock mulch" in my area and found a couple suppliers that will sell additive free mulches. They are landscape supplying companies and sell by the cubic yard, but the prices are reasonable (~$25/cubic yard). They also market a 40-50 year old "seasoned" hemlock mulch. If the price isn't outrageous, I'm going to get some (likely no or very few pine oils). If the "seasoned" mulch is pricey - and I anticipate it will be due to the longevity of aging and the space it requires -, I'm going to get regular ol' hemlock mulch and let it sit for a week or two outside. Then I'm going to give it a shot with my torts. I'll let you know what happens.

Attached is some information on eastern hemlock.


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## mightymizz (Aug 19, 2012)

Well thanks for the advice Chris!

I think for now, I am going to buy the Orchid Bark. It is the Black Gold brand and from what they told me, out here on the West Coast, it is only fir bark.

I am just hoping this Orchid works well with the heat ropes and water to help aid in raising the humidity.

Also kinda bummed that Big Apple only ships UPS and so my heat rope and thermostat was $11 shipping and takes the UPS "ground" which is 5 business days, which really means basically a week. Oh well. Thursday will be here soon enough so that I can start actually building my substrate.

Anyone else feel free to chime in.


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## Redstrike (Aug 19, 2012)

I think you'll be fine with the Orchid Bark, I don't see why that will not work. It's probably the best alternate next to hardwood mulch, which I can't seem to find in Maine either! I almost bought some orchid bark today, but I was weary of a $5 price tag associated with 8 dry quarts. I'm used to buying 2 cubic feet of cypress mulch (in Syracuse, NY) for $4, forcing me to turn my nose up at the bleak 8 quarts for a similar price in Maine (yea, I've been spoiled and now I'm being rotten!).

I'm a fan of Big Apple herp, but in the future, I'd give those Hydrokables on Amazon a shot. It will likely save you some money since you're on the west coast. The Hydrokable I have seems to be working great. 

I hook my rope up to a rheostat and my CHE's to a thermostat, but you could hook the ropes up to either and it would still work. The advantage of the rheostat is that it keeps it going constantly (maybe this is what you're plan is, I'm just assuming the aforementioned thermostat is for the ropes - I could be very wrong!).

It's possible that the hemlock mulch on your side of the country is from western hemlock, very little difference to eastern hemlock for our purposes.


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## mightymizz (Aug 19, 2012)

When I looked at the Hydor Hydrokables, it seemed to me that they can only be used if you buy the Hydor thermostat? I didn't want to spend $50 on a thermostat that I could only use with one product just in case I needed to switch it elsewhere in the future.

I actually was planning on using the thermostat for the heat ropes, I never really considered using a rheostat. That does seem nice that it would keep the ropes "on."


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## Redstrike (Aug 20, 2012)

The Hydor Hydrokables are similar in quality and function as the Big Apple ropes from what I've seen so far. No special equipment necessary to run them.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 20, 2012)

Hemlock bark should not be confused with the herb hemlock which is used to poison so many folks in the mystery books.

Hemlock is a type of pine tree and is used medicinally. Because it is related to pine, I would hesitate to use it as a substrate. However, the picture looks pretty good. Does it have a strong smell?


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## mightymizz (Aug 20, 2012)

It definitely has the classic barkdust smell. It is not a chemical smell, rather a slight....I guess I might say light barnyard "manure" scent.

Maybe the hemlock as an herb was where I was getting my initial fear of using it.

That is good to know about the HydroKables in case I need an alternative.

At this time, I think I am just going to go with the Orchid Bark, but it is a little expensive since the largest bags I can find are the 8 quart ones. The Repti Bark I think might come in larger bags, so maybe that stuff is a better deal? Although from what I have read, Black Gold brand seems like a pretty solid brand.


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## Redstrike (Aug 20, 2012)

emysemys said:


> Hemlock bark should not be confused with the herb hemlock which is used to poison so many folks in the mystery books.
> 
> Hemlock is a type of pine tree and is used medicinally. Because it is related to pine, I would hesitate to use it as a substrate. However, the picture looks pretty good. Does it have a strong smell?



I just picked up a couple trash can bins full of aged hemlock (40-50 years old) and it doesn't smell like pine at all. I also bought some fresh hemlock mulch and there is little pine odor. Instead ,it's like all the cypress mulch I've used, having a slight coniferous odor. Hemlock, pine, and cypress are all in the order Pinales, but yes hemlock is more closely related to pines via the family pinaceae. This said, hemlock is not in the _Pinus_ genus, it is a _Tsuga_, and I don't think it's going to cause much of an issue as a substrate. 

We need affordable alternatives to cypress mulch as suppliers don't distribute to all portions of the U.S. I'm going to test the waters with hemlock and let you guys know how it holds out. I may create another post outlining what I purchased today.

I went to a landscape supply store today and picked up 2 large trashcans of aged hemlock mulch and a 40-gallon tote fresh hemlock mulch. It cost $15, which is dirt cheap for the volume I received. 

Aged mulch (40-50 years old). You can see it's almost like soil at this point. No additives and was actually cheaper than the fresh stuff! I guess it's easier to mill since it's heavily decomposed.










Here's the fresh stuff. Again, no additives, just milled up hemlock bark.









Minimal smell in the fresh mulch, but slightly more than cypress. It's also a bit wet so I may air it out and let it dry for a bit. The aged mulch has an earthy smell (no surprise!). This may be an alternative to cypress where it is not available and other substrates are not reasonably priced for their volume. I'll put up a separate thread after I've had it in their enclosures for some time.


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## mightymizz (Aug 20, 2012)

Great! Appreciate you sharing pictures as well.

Maybe I am confusing what I might describe as the warm barn type smell with what you are describing as an earthy smell. It just makes me remember as a kid, I always knew there was fresh barkdust because you could smell it.


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## Redstrike (Aug 21, 2012)

I don't like making statements about plant volatiles that I have zero evidence for. Attached are two papers, one on hemlock and one on cypress, examining plant volatile levels of leaves/branches in both generas (_Tsuga_ & _Taxodium_).

Keep in mind these papers do not discuss bark. Both genera have very high levels of alpha-pinene, a common antimicrobial & insecticide in conifers.


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## mightymizz (Aug 23, 2012)

Well today I got in my Heat Rope and my thermostat. I bought some hardware cloth and it was just a little bit too big so I was able to fold it over to make it fit inside my enclosure. The hardware cloth doesn't seem to want to lay flat ( no matter how I bend it, it still is wavy from being rolled up) so I will need to buy some slate to help keep it flat.

I plugged in the heat ropes with some orchid bark on top of it, and these ropes just dont seem to get very hot. I can easily hold it with no discomfort. I do feel heat though. After a good amount of time of being on full time, I definitely don't feel much of a warmth in the substrate just 2 inches above the heat rope. 

1. Does this sound normal for those of you who have used these heat ropes before? I almost feel like I don't need to hook it up to a thermostat. Maybe my heat ropes is not operating as it should? I have the space between each "section" of rope about 2-3 inches away from each other, so I could make it a smaller distance if I need to?

2. If this is pretty much normal, will this amount of heat really help the water raise all the way to the surface (through 4 or 5 inches of bark) to be released as humidity? 

3. I was really hoping that these ropes would give a slight warmth to the surface of the substrate since this enclosure is 6 feet long and I will have CHE at each end, and dont want the middle section to be too cold. Any thoughts here?

Thanks to anyone who has any thoughts!
I'll keep everyone updated on how it goes from here!


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## Madkins007 (Aug 24, 2012)

Pretty normal and the way we want it. The ropes should ideally just run a bit higher than the ambient temps (average low temps) in the habitat. That is all the boost the water needs to turn to vapor and rise up through the substrate, converting to humidity in the process. It will also slowly warm the substrate as well.

Too much heat here would damage the habitat surfaces, and make the substrate 'run dry' too easily- it could actually become a potential fire hazard. We are not trying to make steam, just water vapor a little faster than it would happen anyway.

As things settle in, the rising warmish water vapor should also help moderate the habitat temps but it is not really going to 'heat' them, just gently warm them a bit.


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## mightymizz (Aug 24, 2012)

Good to know, thanks Mark.

Today I ended up buying some slate pieces to hold down the hardware cloth. I think I will also end up buying another heat rope to finish the remaining of the enclosure.

My thermostat from Bigapple says to not submerse the temp. probe in water. I tried calling them as there is some confusion to me if they are talking about the temp. probe or the device, but they are already closed.

I hope that a little moisture on the BAH temp. probe isn't going to be a problem as I will have it buried to run the heat ropes.

Thanks everyone!


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## Alan RF (Aug 24, 2012)

It sounds like you might of sorted it with the substrate but can't wait to read how the orchid bark performs on the humidity side with the heat ropes!


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## Madkins007 (Aug 24, 2012)

Temp probe- there should be a wire with a slightly bulbous end that measures the temps and adjusts the heaters accordingly. This probe should never be too wet, and finding a good place for it is trial and error and depends in part on if the thermostat is set to the hot, mid, or cool temps for the place- which in turn kind of depends on stuff. 

I set mine for not quite the warmest I want it, then locate it near but not under the main heater, close to the soil surface.


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## mightymizz (Aug 24, 2012)

So you put your temperature probe that runs your heat ropes actually just above the surface? Wouldn't that mean that you aren't really monitoring the heat ropes and more the ambient temps. of your enclosure?

Maybe this is ideal?

I was under the impression that I needed to bury my temperature probe to help it get a little closer to the heat ropes so that the thermostat has a more accurate reading of when to turn the ropes on and off.?


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## Redstrike (Aug 24, 2012)

This is why I prefer a rheostat/dimmer switch setup for the heat ropes. I can dial them down to a medium-low setting and hook my CHE's up to a separate thermostat to regulate the air temperatures in the enclosure. I just use the ropes for humidity, which I can accomplish fine with a rheostat/dimmer.

The temperature probes on the thermostat aren't generally meant to be buried under damp/wet substrate, though it may be fine?

I wish I had caught your plan sooner and directed you toward a cheap rheostat for the ropes...


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## mightymizz (Aug 24, 2012)

Don't the rheostats use some type of temperature probe also though?


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## mightymizz (Aug 26, 2012)

So after thinking about it some, I have decided to run the Heat Ropes on a timer with them coming on for 2 hours and then being off for 1 hour. 

I now have my 100w CHE attached to the new thermostat.

Still interested in the rheostats, but any concerns with this set up? The humidity currently is very nice at about 90%.


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## Redstrike (Aug 26, 2012)

mightymizz said:


> So after thinking about it some, I have decided to run the Heat Ropes on a timer with them coming on for 2 hours and then being off for 1 hour.
> 
> I now have my 100w CHE attached to the new thermostat.
> 
> Still interested in the rheostats, but any concerns with this set up? The humidity currently is very nice at about 90%.



This sounds very functional.

The rheostats do not use a temperature probe, they simply adjust the amount of electricity being supplied to the appliance. It's similar to a dimmer switch but they are not the same. Either would work fine for this application.


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## Madkins007 (Aug 26, 2012)

The difference between the rheostat and the thermostat is that the thermostat senses the temperatures at the probe and adjust accordingly.

I don't run my ropes on a controller anymore. I use the thermostat for the CHE, and set the ropes up to run at about 90F by how they are spaced. It is not at 90 by the time it hits the surface through all that insulatation, but just a little gently warm. I missed where the probe was being uses for the ropes- sorry!


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## mightymizz (Aug 26, 2012)

Hey Mark, mind if I ask what you have found to be good spacing? Is that still about 2 inches if I remember correctly?

So you leave power to the ropes all day then, but with correct spacing, feel safe about temps. and not having really any possible fire potential?


PS- I do have to say that so far with the ropes and this new enclosure pretty much totally covered (Minus a few openings where I didn't cut the wood so straight) the humidity has been at 90% or greater. I am almost starting to wonder if it stays that high, if it might be too high?


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## Redstrike (Aug 27, 2012)

mightymizz said:


> Hey Mark, mind if I ask what you have found to be good spacing? Is that still about 2 inches if I remember correctly?
> 
> So you leave power to the ropes all day then, but with correct spacing, feel safe about temps. and not having really any possible fire potential?
> 
> ...



I average ~80% humidity in my enclosure. It's most when I add water the the substrate and slowly tapers off when they've evaporated it out of the substrate by the end of the week. I shoot for 70% minimum and this setup easily provides this for me.

I understand your concern for the fire hazard. I place my trust in the product. The hydrokables diagram putting them in a fish tank, so I feel very comfortable with them and I know the Big Apple ropes are good too. In reality, yes it is a fire hazard. I try to keep a good amount of water/moisture on the ropes and I think this helps.


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## Madkins007 (Aug 27, 2012)

Like Redstrike said.

The thing I like about the Big Apple ropes are that they just plain don't get that hot. You can tape them down with electrical tape and it won't melt it. I taped them to a big sheet of ABS plastic, about 1/8" thick, and the heat warped the plastic, but did not cause ANY melting damage.

About 2" apart worked for me. This is the trickiest part of the whole thing- finding a pattern you like. On the other hand, it is not real critical to get exactly right.


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