# Some of my tortoises



## Baoh (Oct 10, 2012)

Some pics are a bit old. Some are new.

Sudanese female (a recent arrival and a bigger draw at the cargo hub than a tiger cub I had the good fortune of being allowed to hold).







Some of my Gpp het Sunset Hypo animals. The rightmost animal has since found a new home.






A couple out of my group of Western Hermann's babies. I am pleased to build a new group of these. I have four, but may add two more this year or the next.






My biggest YF female (unknown lineage raised from a random hatchling picked up at a show ten years ago) sitting in the expanded sulcata burrow.






Same gal next to my keystone ivory sulcata male (they are both about 20" scl, IIRC).






Where baby ivories come from.






Some shots that include my ~15" Leopcata poss het ivory poss het Sunset Hypo. She is just over three years old. I keep her around to observe her behaviors, have a very cool pet, test her reproductive capabilities, and make sure that people on the internet do not run out of things to complain about. She has not burrowed as of yet, but she, like many species I keep, uses the communal sulcata burrow readily and regularly.











Leopard crypsis. Too bad the grass was not dry. Would have had a better blending visual effect.






Box-o'-baby Sudanese.






Introverted het.






Extroverted het.






Strike a pose. Large LTC female YF. I will probably find her a new home.


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## l0velesly (Oct 11, 2012)

Pretty torts!!!


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## mainey34 (Oct 11, 2012)

Wow. Beauties you have there. Thank you for sharing


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## tortadise (Oct 11, 2012)

they look great. I am interested in the "probably find her a new home" yellow foot you have.


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## TortoiseBoy1999 (Oct 11, 2012)

Question! Why do I see to species together? Have they been tested to be ok? I was just curious I do not mean this in a mean way. Thanks


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## Q'sTortie (Oct 11, 2012)

They are all soooo beautiful!! LOVE your GPP het sunset hypo's


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## Jacqui (Oct 11, 2012)

I just think those leopards are awesome. So is the one very neat looking Sudanese in the upper left corner.


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## Vincentdhr (Oct 11, 2012)

If you ever have any baby Sudanese sulcatas for sale, just give me a PM...


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## Pokeymeg (Oct 11, 2012)

Your Large LTC female YF looks purple!! Is that true or is it a trick of the camera?


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## Neal (Oct 11, 2012)

Great pictures! I like your hypo leopards.


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## Tropical Torts (Oct 11, 2012)

Great torts! I would definitely be interested in your yellowfoot for sure!


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## Baoh (Oct 11, 2012)

TortoiseBoy1999 said:


> Question! Why do I see to species together? Have they been tested to be ok? I was just curious I do not mean this in a mean way. Thanks



No offense taken.

You see multiple species together because they are afforded common space as deemed fitting by me based on size, temperament, and state of health. I check for parasites and treat as warranted for newcomers, but they are also put through a quarantine period (more of an observation period). My Sudanese female comes from an excellent breeder, for example, but she is in quarantine for now as a matter of course in order to ease her post-move stress and allow me to evaluate her on multiple aspects. She will not be allowed to "meet" anyone during this period other than my dogs, myself, and my fiancee. After that, she will not be allowed to interact with others beyond my keystone male ivory sulcata (who is a great behavioral compatibility evaluation assistant to me) in limited fashion. In April, I will increase her exposure to others if behavior is acceptable in communal spaces. Then I can decide to what extent, if at all, she will be allowed to interact with others (of any species, her own included).




Jacqui said:


> I just think those leopards are awesome. So is the one very neat looking Sudanese in the upper left corner.



"She" sold super-quick by a person gambling on female. I know you love some split scutes.




Vincentdhr said:


> If you ever have any baby Sudanese sulcatas for sale, just give me a PM...



I will not have any pure locale offspring going forward (unless I change my mind on this). I have high hopes for her potential offspring, though. If not, she is surely one snazzy lawnmower.




Pokeymeg said:


> Your Large LTC female YF looks purple!! Is that true or is it a trick of the camera?



Depends on the light, I would guess. The photo is unaltered and was taken at the tail end of a storm. When dry, she is somewhat more drab.




tortadise said:


> they look great. I am interested in the "probably find her a new home" yellow foot you have.





jrcrist4 said:


> Great torts! I would definitely be interested in your yellowfoot for sure!



She has a lot of local interest right now, but we will see how that goes.


Thanks, all. I like to see and share some of the atypical ones.


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## acrantophis (Oct 11, 2012)

Wow! Nice collection! Very healthy looking.


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## TortoiseBoy1999 (Oct 11, 2012)

Oh ok. Thanks


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## DrewsLife727 (Oct 12, 2012)

Awesome pics for some awesome torts!


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## ALDABRAMAN (Oct 12, 2012)




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## Baoh (Oct 29, 2012)

Here are a couple shots of a newly acquired hypo CH/RF, a shot of my little Aldabra, and one of my favorite little female ivory sulcata that shows a bit of her absurdly high dome (I believe she will be an incredible breeder when she matures).


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## tortoise_lover (Oct 30, 2012)

very nice tortoise.. awesome !!!


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## mightymizz (Nov 1, 2012)

Great pictures, thanks for sharing!!


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## bigred (Nov 1, 2012)

You have some very beautiful animals and I must say I love the White leopards. I have never owned leopards as of yet. I must agree with you about keeping the Leprocatta for arguments sake


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## lovelyrosepetal (Nov 1, 2012)

I, also love the white leopards. You have some very beautiful tortoises. I, personally, love leprocattas. They are beautiful. I hope you post more pictures of your tortoises in the future. They are beautiful and a great treasure!!!


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## Baoh (Nov 1, 2012)

I said I would take some Aldabra photos, so here are some shots of an Aldabra being grown according to my keeping habits (not laws by any means).



























Tortoise Thanksgiving. OMG! Mixed species! I guess I will have to burn the house down. Relax, folks. Just a little ribbing. In case anyone is wondering, I decided to try out Rapid Micro testing for the new hypo. Nothing concerning, so group interaction has been allowed to make sure social behavior is agreeable.


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## mightymizz (Nov 1, 2012)

Not sure if this thread would be the ideal spot, or the other one, but is there any way you could discuss your methods and approach to feeding? Here and in the other thread you do mention the rich diet and I would love to hear your thoughts. 

Also if you don't mind your enclosure set ups, and if you happen to live in Florida. I only mention Florida due to many people being able to get their torts a lot of outside sun and nice humidity usually.

I personally only have redfoots currently, but love to hear other people's ideas to glean what I can.

Thanks!!


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## l0velesly (Nov 1, 2012)

Wow, you have a lot of rare and unique tortoises!


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## DesertGrandma (Nov 1, 2012)

nice torts. I want the little leo in the grass, sooooo pretty.


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## Baoh (Nov 1, 2012)

Colder months:

In terms of feeding, I allow and encourage energy dense foods such as Mazuri. Some animals will take to rabbit or alfalfa pellets. I feed a variety of non-processed foods, too. I feed a lot of string beans when they are cheap. I allow many types of fruit (avocado, papaya, mango, tomato, strawberry, squash, bell pepper, opuntia tuna, banana, and so on), but this is in addition to fibrous vegetable matter and not as a substitute for it. I will feed spring mix to young animals. I feed turnip greens, collard greens, romaine lettuce heads, endive, escarole, and the like. Sometimes cactus pads. I sprinkle Miner-all on the food at least a few times a week for young animals. 

I never intentionally restrict food.

Warmer months:

Outside, they eat what grows on the ground or falls upon it. Grass primarily. Some weeds. Some garden plants. Fallen blooms and sweet gum leaves. Feces of all sorts (dogs, rabbits, various tortoise species, birds, and deer). Animals (snakes, birds, worms, slugs, and insects). Animal corpses (birds and squirrels). Eggs that have fallen from nests. Remains that the hawks drop when they pick apart their prey on the posts of my fence. Some leftover food if it falls into what I consider an appropriate category.

The smaller young have a separate outdoor enclosure that has weeds, grasses, lots of chia, lots of turnip greens, and more.

I add minerals, especially dolomite flour, to the ground each year to try and boost calcium levels in the yard graze.

Certain animals are given the rich diet of things like Mazuri and avocado year-'round. These are typically animals with high growth demands (giants) or animals who I am seeing if I can bring to maturity faster since it is a matter of size more than anything. If there was anything other than quality growth resulting, I would reevaluate, but all evidence here points to "just fine".

I produce some animals myself and some I acquire in order to improve my projects. I also acquire some for pets, observational insight, and some simply to grow out to sell to others as future breeders. I will eventually produce some for brumation experiments, but I cannot financially justify that just yet. Some of the animals I acquire come to me with significant pyramiding (like a recent ivory pair). The rich diet does not seem to exacerbate the issue and new growth is typically smooth. My high energy density versus low energy density diet phases are essentially the opposite of nature. I do not think it matters, really. I think much of nature is what the animals may simply endure. A portion of nature is what they may need. I think it is up to each individual keeper to decide what they consider to be reasonable for care and I have seen many different practices produce positive and negative results.

If something works for you, I say use it. If something works for me but something else works for you, I see no reason why you should switch to mine or I should switch to yours. If your animals are doing well, I should be happy for you and that is that as far as I am concerned.


Whoops. Forgot to mention it, but I live in the Midwest and deal with a real winter. This makes things much more complicated for me, but I seem to manage okay. It would be a ton easier for me in terms of feeding and housing if I still lived on one of my FL properties.


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## mightymizz (Nov 1, 2012)

Fabulous!! Thanks for sharing that, I appreciate it. Gives me some ideas as well to enhance my routine!

Thanks again!


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## N2TORTS (Nov 1, 2012)

Very Very Nice ................


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## bigred (Nov 1, 2012)

Baoh said:


> Colder months:
> 
> In terms of feeding, I allow and encourage energy dense foods such as Mazuri. Some animals will take to rabbit or alfalfa pellets. I feed a variety of non-processed foods, too. I feed a lot of string beans when they are cheap. I allow many types of fruit (avocado, papaya, mango, tomato, strawberry, squash, bell pepper, opuntia tuna, banana, and so on), but this is in addition to fibrous vegetable matter and not as a substitute for it. I will feed spring mix to young animals. I feed turnip greens, collard greens, romaine lettuce heads, endive, escarole, and the like. Sometimes cactus pads. I sprinkle Miner-all on the food at least a few times a week for young animals.
> 
> ...





Never heard of Dolomite flour before


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## Baoh (Nov 1, 2012)

I make it a point to use the flour/powder over granules for two reasons. The first is the smaller particle size should get into the ground easier. The second is that, if I cast the granules poorly, I am concerned that a smaller animal could consume a group of them that could bind together in the digestive tract, creating a stone like calcium sand can in some lizards. It is probably not something that has a high chance of occurring, but I avoid it by using the flour.


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## bigred (Nov 1, 2012)

Baoh said:


> I make it a point to use the flour/powder over granules for two reasons. The first is the smaller particle size should get into the ground easier. The second is that, if I cast the granules poorly, I am concerned that a smaller animal could consume a group of them that could bind together in the digestive tract, creating a stone like calcium sand can in some lizards. It is probably not something that has a high chance of occurring, but I avoid it by using the flour.



Thanks for the info, Im going to do just that


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## jesst (Nov 4, 2012)

You have an amazing collection there.....


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## Yvonne G (Nov 4, 2012)

bigred said:


> Never heard of Dolomite flour before



Another name for it is lime, but don't use hydrated lime. It should say dolomite lime flour.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Nov 6, 2012)

emysemys said:


> Another name for it is lime, but don't use hydrated lime. It should say dolomite lime flour.



Limestone flour. (Ground up limestone$


I'm not sure why this is in this thread but let me hazard some thoughts on using limestone flourâ€¦first off, let me qualify this by saying, I use it regularly and freely. It's 99.9% pure and organic and really inexpensive. 
Agriculturally it is a soil enhancer. It binds with clay soils making them looser and it helps loose soils firm up and hold more water. Another property is that it makes available nitrogen for plant use. Put it in your lawn in the spring and you will be rewarded with a green lawn. 
Now I freely broadcast this in my tortoise enclosures early morning when the morning dew makes it stick to the grazing. My concern that maybe more inquisitive members may investigate has to do with the freeing up of nitrogen. I have read somewhere that nitrogen buildup is something we need to concern ourselves with as tortoise caretakers. In that the plants the tortoises are grazing on have access to freer nitrogen that might be a health issue. I have no idea what those problems are or how they would manifest themselves but maybe some one out there could help.


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## jaizei (Nov 6, 2012)

Baoh said:


> I add minerals, especially dolomite flour, to the ground each year to try and boost calcium levels in the yard graze.



Do you/have you done any type of testing or analysis to see how effective this is? I've made similar efforts, but without any actual data it has always been more of a theoretical, "couldn't hurt" kinda thing.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Nov 6, 2012)

One of the â€œfun" aspects of calcium is that the rain washes it away. That is why the soils in my neck of the woods, Pacific Northwest, have a low mineral content compared to just 200 miles east in eastern Oregon where they get less rain and the soils and forage grown has a higher mineral content. I pay dearly to have my eastern Oregon orchard grass for my horses. Even buying it by the ton.


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## Baoh (Nov 6, 2012)

Cowboy_Ken said:


> emysemys said:
> 
> 
> > Another name for it is lime, but don't use hydrated lime. It should say dolomite lime flour.
> ...





Nitrogen is incorporated as amino acids. It is the most key differentiating nutrient between lipids, proteins, and carbohydrates. It is beneficial to tortoises as it is to all living things.




jaizei said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> > I add minerals, especially dolomite flour, to the ground each year to try and boost calcium levels in the yard graze.
> ...



No. Your reasons are on point, but I am not that worried that fortification is not taking place and it costs little. I want to make it available, but I do not believe that it, for example, presses incorporation to a greater level than whatever the plants normally would. I just want to make sure that, by providing it, the plants are not lacking in available supply from which to incorporate to the best of their normal ability.


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## yagyujubei (Nov 7, 2012)

Fantastic pics...


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## Baoh (Nov 13, 2012)

My little Burmese star and my smallest Gpp het sunset hypo eating greens.






The Burmese star wanted something a bit more dense.











A quick shot of my Western Hermann's babies.


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## mightymizz (Nov 14, 2012)

Great pictures!

Is that coconut coir that you are using for your indoor substrate?

Any other tips you might share on how you like to keep higher humidity indoors for your setups?

Thanks for sharing!


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## TortoiseBoy1999 (Nov 14, 2012)

Baoh said:


> My little Burmese star and my smallest Gpp het sunset hypo eating greens.
> 
> The Burmese star wanted something a bit more dense.
> 
> A quick shot of my Western Hermann's babies.



Awsome pics.....


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## Baoh (Nov 14, 2012)

Yes, I mainly use coir for the baby and juvenile tubs. I am using cypress mulch for the subadults and adults, but plan to add top soil to that. I have been told of a few cases of coir-based impaction, where baby tortoises just ate a ton of it for whatever reason, so I plan to mix soil with the coir, too, although I have not had any problems. I keep a repti-fogger on one end with the outlet beneath the heat radiation of a CHE. That end has the substrate generally kept moist. I keep an MVB on the other end with some dry substrate. I sometimes add a regular CFL or incandescent (I prefer incandescent, but I dislike the relatively frequent replacement) to the side of the middle. Substrate gets added water, simply poured in until the entire enclosure is wet, but not soupy, around every week or every other week. Every other week is more typical than weekly. For larger juveniles, I provide a ramped water dish. For smaller ones, I tend to just put a group of overturned lids beneath the MVB when setting up the food dishes and place one to two babies in each one after I have filled them with warm water. They drink, clamber out, and then go eat. Then I remove the lids. I am thinking about finding a nicer water dish setup that is permanently left in the baby enclosure.

I do not seek to achieve high humidity everywhere all of the time. I have no quarrel with doing so, but I want the animals to have the option to sit in a dry space if they feel the need. Since babies tend to "dig in" both in captivity and nature, I emphasize a moist subterranean substrate layer. I also want to avoid fungal infections, and I assume this (dry area and some dry surface) is working in favor of that avoidance.

I have also stopped using spring mix and have replaced it with baby lettuces. I did not realize how much spinach was present in spring mix. Unfortunately, I have a leopard (the one you see with the Burmese star) that seemed to be getting more lethargic and weaker. It started to really progress. I could not figure out what was wrong. Its locations in the enclosure were fine (not too much time spent near or away from moisture, heat, and cooler areas). It ate, although it stopped eating Mazuri. The amount of food it ate was decreasing. It seemed better after baby food soaks and soaks in general, but it was always a short burst of improvement. It was negative for parasites. It had more than adequate UVB. No RI symptoms like bubbling, a runny nose, or labored breathing. Stools were properly formed. I could get it to eat better when I shredded spring mix and mashed it into soaked Mazuri, but it would start declining again if I did straight spring mix. I sat with it for a few hours and tried some things. First, I separated all of the components of the spring mix into respective leaf types. I noticed a significant spinach quantity and was concerned about possible oxalic acid issues. I placed the seperated piles before the tortoise. After rousing it and a soak, it went straight for the spinach pile. I tried rearranging the locations of the piles to disfavor proximity to the spinach pile. It would walk over or around the other piles, ignoring them to get to the spinach pile. I remixed the piles together and then set the mix before the tortoise. The tortoise picked out the spinach preferentially. I shredded the pile and set it back before the tortoise. The tortoise then would consume all leaf types because it was so finely mixed, it could not pick out the spinach. The animal was getting quite weak by now. I went out and bought baby lettuces. and gave no solid food to the animal for two days, but I soaked it twice daily with baby food soaks to keep nutrition going in. I then provided baby lettuces, which it tore into. Its activity, weight, muscle tone, and everything else have since improved dramatically. I am sprinkling Miner-all on the baby lettuces every other day, as the animal may have a degree of calcium deficiency if the problem was actually oxalic acid (I do not know; all I know is that it had a problem when preferentially consuming spinach and has improved dramatically with the removal of spinach from the diet). I had been planning to eventually sell this animal if it proved robust enough, but its decline prevented that. If things improve, its health fully restores, and it continues to grow well now that it is growing again, I will be able to let it go to a new owner in the Spring. Outside of this one baby, I have never observed this particular issue in my many animals, but a process of elimination helped clarify things for me.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 14, 2012)

Thanks for that, Baoh. I quit using spring mix too because I noticed that it had a very high percentage of spinach in it. I now grow my own, and include the Santa Barbara mix in with mine. Santa Barbara mix is escarole, endive and raddiccio.


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## Baoh (Nov 14, 2012)

I will have to pick some of that up, then. Good recommendation.


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## mightymizz (Nov 14, 2012)

Thanks again for your information! I appreciate your time and thoughts!




Yeah, I also will buy spring mixes but in my area they usually don't have a ton of spinach, but I always pick it out anyways.


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## Yellow Turtle (Nov 14, 2012)

How can I miss to comment on this. They are all very beautiful torts and you seem to have your own opinion of mixing tortoise of different species. Not to be mistaken, I would totally agree with anyone mixing their torts if they find no harm in doing so.

Also, I always enjoy watching large varieties of torts, and you have quite a bunch!!!


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## Baoh (Nov 16, 2012)

Thanks.

Updates:

1) The little Gpp het sunset hypo that was having trouble is now consuming Mazuri, too, so I am much relieved. Muscle tone is getting better every day, too, and its activity has increased substantially.

2) My adult leopcata/hybrid displayed some ramming activity (against me) today. She ran up curiously, I crouched down and placed my palm before her, and she would lurch forward and ram my palm. My female sulcatas sometimes do this, but only if I shove them around a little bit, too, to slightly antagonize them. I do not have any large adult leopard tortoises to compare this behavior to. For those of you with adult female leopard tortoises, do yours ever do this? I am thinking it may be sulcata driven, but I do not have the other half of the experience necessary to make such a conclusion on my own. Does your big girl ever do anything like this, Dennis?


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## jtrux (Dec 10, 2012)

Did you sell all your Sudanese?


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## Baoh (Dec 10, 2012)

Yep, save for the big girl, for whom I have breeding plans.


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## yagyujubei (Dec 15, 2012)

Sorry, No, my big female is quite demure and a little shy. If I put my hand in front of her, she will retract at first. Hrothgar, my male, however, seems to take great delight in ramming my feet almost everyday. I also have to be careful wearing sandals around him. He will bite them and my toes if given half a chance. He is very bold, and if I tap his nose, he is just as likely to push my finger as retract.


Baoh said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Updates:
> 
> ...


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## Baoh (Dec 15, 2012)

Appreciate the input.

Mine has become the dominant female in her living space. She will ram me or my hand, but does not seem to ram her cagemate. Her cagemate is a very assertive female sulcata het of comparable size. If the sulcata tries to take from the food the hybrid is eating at and gets in her face, the hybrid will not ram, but will Sumo-shove the sulcata all the way to other end of the enclosure and then return to her food.

Also, my 4" female Gpp het sunset hypo does something like this. Even against animals 10" scl and obviously much heavier than she is, she will go to their flank and try to shove and flip animals that get in her face while she is eating. Even if they block her food by accident. This only happens once in a while, but it is interesting to observe when it does.

Both of these feeding-related activities only take place if a dish or concentration of food, like some kind of large piece of food, is involved. When food is in multiple locations or is spread about or when grazing, this does not seem to happen.


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