# Devastated...found two babies dead!



## sunshine_hugs (Aug 12, 2013)

My family and I are absolutely devastated, as we found two of out hatchlings dead this afternoon. 

I'm completely lost as to what happened. One of them was "Riddle", the one with split scutes that had and injured shell yesterday....the other was Gruffalo...he was my baby, and had the funniest personality. 

I found Riddle half eaten, and Gruffalo was fairly close to her, just completely laid out (all legs and head extended). I'm not sure if maybe he ate her, and then died. 

I posted about Riddle yesterday...she had an injured shell, and seemed stressed. After a soak, and a thorough check over, she seemed fine, and I released her back into the main pen. 

Early this morning, I saw Gruffalo out and eating (he was always the first one up, so this is normal). I held him for a minute, gave him a soak, and put him back in the pen...then I saw all the other torts, other than Riddle, slowly come out and eat. 

I left the house for two hours, and when I came home, I found Gruffalo. That's when I searched the pen for Riddle to make sure she was okay, and to give her a soak....that's when I found her half eaten. 

I'm not sure what to think or do right now. I feel super paranoid for the other 4 that are in there. I want to take them all out and redo the enclosure, but I have nowhere to put them...and it's not as if I can even go buy bins or anything today....EVERYWHERE is closed during Carnival. Nothing opens until Wednesday!! 

I'm not even sure why I'm posting this...I just feel lost, and don't know what else to do. I'm sad for the loss of two babies...and at the same time, worried about the safety of four other ones. 

R.I.P Riddle & Gruffalo...









p.s. sorry if this post is all over the place...I'm kind of scatter-brained right now, and can't even fix it to flow better.


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## Irwin4530 (Aug 12, 2013)

I'm sorry for your loss!
Do whatever it takes to get those other babies inside and safe.... Even if you have to put them in the tub!
Best of luck to you!


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## NickWag (Aug 12, 2013)

:/ 
That is all.


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## ascott (Aug 12, 2013)

When you say half eaten? Do mean shell as well? (apologies for seeming forward in asking, but you may have a predator problem--raccoon or such)....is the enclosure completely covered for the babies? If so, did you do a perimeter check to see if there was breach in the top?...I would try to figure these things out rather rapidly....as for bringing the others inside, you can bring them in and place them in any plastic tup or box or anything that you can contain them in for the short day or two....until you determine what the culprit is here...

And I am so so very sorry to hear of this...


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## sunshine_hugs (Aug 12, 2013)

ascott said:


> When you say half eaten? Do mean shell as well? (apologies for seeming forward in asking, but you may have a predator problem--raccoon or such)....is the enclosure completely covered for the babies? If so, did you do a perimeter check to see if there was breach in the top?...I would try to figure these things out rather rapidly....as for bringing the others inside, you can bring them in and place them in any plastic tup or box or anything that you can contain them in for the short day or two....until you determine what the culprit is here...
> 
> And I am so so very sorry to hear of this...



Okay...I just checked out their pen, and removed the four that were in there. I have those four a soak, and checked them over...they all look good and are acting normal. 

The pen is not covered...I put them in a sleep box at night, but they roam around a big pen during the day. I do have a hatchling pen that I keep completely covered....there are two hatchlings in it right now ( those two I'm just holding for a friend for two weeks). I emptied some of my kids toy bins and have made a temp pen until I figure out what to do....it's not ideal, but it gives me a bit of peace of mind. 

Yes, part of Riddle's shell was eaten too. Gruffalo looked perfect. So, I'm assuming something got to Riddle, but not sure if something killed her, or ate her after she died (she was acting weird yesterday). 

We don't have raccoons on the island....we do have snakes, but only garden snakes (which I have seen in my yard) and tree boas. We also have possums, mongoose and rats....I haven't seen any rats or mongoose around, but I have seen a possum. All of these things usually only come out at night...and the only thing that might possibly be able to get into the sleep box, would be a garden snake, size wise. 

Also, I'm worried that I didn't get Riddle in the sleep box last night...it was raining, and I was rushing....I was sure I counted all 6....but today I'm second guessing that. 

I don't know what else to say now....I know this was ultimately my fault, as it's my responsibility to care for them and protect them, but it doesn't make the hurt any less.




Irwin4530 said:


> I'm sorry for your loss!
> Do whatever it takes to get those other babies inside and safe.... Even if you have to put them in the tub!
> Best of luck to you!



Thank you. I have removed the remaining babies, and they are safely in a temp bin.


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## Tom (Aug 12, 2013)

The chew marks in the shell? Big like a dog, or small like a rat?

Looks like you need to build metal cage around your tortoise area.

So sorry for your loss. I feel horrible for you.


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## Kate2013 (Aug 12, 2013)

I am so sorry... :-(


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## Beck (Aug 12, 2013)

I'm so sorry for your loss.


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## sunshine_hugs (Aug 12, 2013)

Tom said:


> The chew marks in the shell? Big like a dog, or small like a rat?
> 
> Looks like you need to build metal cage around your tortoise area.
> 
> So sorry for your loss. I feel horrible for you.



The top of the shell was in almost perfect shape...something just ate the bottom. I say "almost" perfect, because of whatever got to her shell yesterday. So, if her injury yesterday morning was from an animal (I thought it was from a sharp rock that I removed from the enclosure), then it was something small. She was small, at 2.5" and whatever ate at her, ate about half of the bottom (I can't remember any terms right now) part of her, and most of her insides. I still have her in a box, but just can't bare to look again or take pictures. 

I'm going to keep the others in the temp set up until stores open on Wednesday...then I'll get to work on completely enclosing their pen.


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## sibi (Aug 12, 2013)

You definitely have a predator who ate half of your baby. Now, you must determine what it is and kill it. Relocating the predator isn't gonna work. It will only come back! Possums could of done it. I doubt it was a snake. Snakes often swallow their food whole. A garden snake is harmless. A really big rat could have done it too. I would put out a trap with yummy bate. you're doing the right thing by taking the remaining babies and moving them inside until you can find the culprit. Keep us posted, and I'm so sorry you had to experience this.


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## wellington (Aug 12, 2013)

So very sorry


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## jax7271 (Aug 12, 2013)

So very, very sorry for your loss


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## Yvonne G (Aug 12, 2013)

Oh, man...that really sucks, big time!

I'm so very sorry this happened to your little babies.

Sounds to me like a smallish predator...like a rat or something. Now the bite mark you showed us the other day makes more sense. Whatever it was that sampled the baby the other day came back to finish the job today. None of your babies will be safe for a while until this predator realizes there is no more food here and moves on.


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## Tom (Aug 12, 2013)

I ask what size predator you are dealing with because that will dictate your countermeasures. Rats can squeeze through the smallest of holes, while dogs or opossums can be stopped with most commercially available metal welded wire or hardware cloth. Rats will need a full force attack with traps and all.


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## sunshine_hugs (Aug 12, 2013)

Tom said:


> I ask what size predator you are dealing with because that will dictate your countermeasures. Rats can squeeze through the smallest of holes, while dogs or opossums can be stopped with most commercially available metal welded wire or hardware cloth. Rats will need a full force attack with traps and all.



We had a metal hardware cloth on the sleep box...so it's possible for a rat to still get through that? 

Like I said, I haven't seen any rats, but it doesn't mean that they're not around. I know we have them on the island, and that they can be a nuisance.




Yvonne G said:


> Oh, man...that really sucks, big time!
> 
> I'm so very sorry this happened to your little babies.
> 
> Sounds to me like a smallish predator...like a rat or something. Now the bite mark you showed us the other day makes more sense. Whatever it was that sampled the baby the other day came back to finish the job today. None of your babies will be safe for a while until this predator realizes there is no more food here and moves on.




Thank you Yvonne. I know....I wish I had realized it was bite marks, as I maybe could have prevented it.  I guess I had to learn the hard way.




sibi said:


> You definitely have a predator who ate half of your baby. Now, you must determine what it is and kill it. Relocating the predator isn't gonna work. It will only come back! Possums could of done it. I doubt it was a snake. Snakes often swallow their food whole. A garden snake is harmless. A really big rat could have done it too. I would put out a trap with yummy bate. you're doing the right thing by taking the remaining babies and moving them inside until you can find the culprit. Keep us posted, and I'm so sorry you had to experience this.



We're going to set traps tonight. This goes against what I normally believe in, but I can't have anything killing my babies.


Thank you to everyone who has sent sympathies. It's an emotional day at my house, but I'm trying to focus on protecting the rest of my tort family.


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## torilovestorts (Aug 12, 2013)

I'm so sorry..  that's horrible to hear.. I hope your other ones stay happy & healthy!


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## kathyth (Aug 12, 2013)

I am so sorry for your terrible loss!
Glad you brought them in the house. Safety first, comfort later. This is just so awful!
Glad you posted here to get advice and prevent further problems.
I went through something similar, in the past and it was heartbreaking.
Again, I'm sorry for your loss.


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## sunshine_hugs (Aug 12, 2013)

Thank you, tortilovestorts, and Kathy. I appreciate the kind words.


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## oknursedana (Aug 12, 2013)

I am so sorry for your loss!!! I can't imagine how you and your family feels. Keep us posted.


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## AnnV (Aug 12, 2013)

What an awful thing to happen. I am sorry for you and the two little lost ones. 
I hope you can eradicate the culprit. 


Ann from CT


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## pam (Aug 12, 2013)

Sooooooooooooooo sorry for your loss


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## Beck (Aug 12, 2013)

Rats can fit through anything they can fit their skull through. 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using TortForum mobile app


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## SANDRA_MEISSNEST (Aug 12, 2013)

I'm sorry for your loss... you have to try to find the predator and kill it, it knows where to get the food it will be back. so you have to kill it...
good luck and keep us posted let us know if you find out what it is.
you can buy all kinds of traps and keep it outside the enclosure so when they come they go for that first and then they get killed ;-)

Sent from my ZTE N9120 using TortForum mobile app


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## Laura (Aug 12, 2013)

did this happen during the day? 
do you have Crows or ravens or other such birds on the Island?


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## sunshine_hugs (Aug 12, 2013)

Thanks everyone. I can't sleep at all tonight, even though I know the remaining torts are safe. 

We have set a trap (only have one at home, will buy more when stores open on Wednesday), so we'll see if we get anything in the morning. We are definitely planning on killing the culprit, as we don't want anything to happen to our other tortoises. 

Does anyone know if a mouse would do something like this? I remember seeing a mouse in our yard when I was moving a pile of stuff our gardener left laying around. Then I saw it a few days later, scurrying in the yard. I never thought much of it, as I didn't see a mouse as a threat to tortoises, but now I'm second guessing everything. I know whatever did this was fairly small (maybe small possum, rat, mouse?). 

Also, I still can't figure out why Gruffalo died. He was perfectly untouched. Could it be from eating Riddle? (obviously it would have been after whatever ate her first). He was fine and totally normal just three hours before I found him dead...even did his usual daily routine. That part puzzles me beyond belief.

Okay, I'm going to try and get some sleep.


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## sibi (Aug 12, 2013)

I perfectly understand how upsetting this is to you. If stressed to the limit, Gruffalo could have witnessed this attack on Riddle and it could have been enough to kill him. Many animals can die of extreme stress. If that is what killed him, that would be doubly horrible and tragic! Mice could attack and nibble, but it's more likely it was a rat because they are capable of the type of damage that was done. What you saw could have been a baby mouse. Where there's babies, there's a big mommy rat.


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## ascott (Aug 12, 2013)

> did this happen during the day?
> do you have Crows or ravens or other such birds on the Island?



This is what I was wondering too when you describe the type of injury/damage...Ravens are premium predators as well as scavengers...here in the desert a Raven can easily do this exact described damage...and they do this often with CDTs...there have been nests found for Ravens with 20 to 30 shells below it with the exact damage you describe...

Again, I am so sad to hear this...I am so very very sorry to hear of this...


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## sissyofone (Aug 12, 2013)

I am sooo sorry to hear.


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## sunshine_hugs (Aug 13, 2013)

ascott said:


> > did this happen during the day?
> > do you have Crows or ravens or other such birds on the Island?
> 
> 
> ...




Yes, Gruffalo's death was during the day....he was fine in the morning, found him dead at 12:30pm. I found Riddle right after that, while searching their pen. Riddle could have died during the night, but I'm sorry to say that I don't know. 

I saw all of the torts, except Riddle, in their pen in the morning. I didn't search for her at that time, because I assumed she was hiding / sleeping from the stress the day before. I didn't want to cause more stress, so I decided to leave her until soak time, which I do early afternoon. 

When I found her, she was under one of the covered areas, right beside a hide. I'll add a picture of most of the enclosure, so you can maybe get a better idea. In the photo, on the very left, you'll see a long piece of wood...it's open on all side, just acts as a cover...I have two hides under it, and she was beside one of the hides.





Hmm...no crows or ravens on the island. Birds in my area that might be worth noting (mainly because I see them alot around my house), but I don't think would do something like this: Grackles, Smooth Bill Ani, Gray Kingbird. 

None of these birds are known to be aggressive, as far as I know. And because of where Riddle was found, I can't see it being a bird. 

Gruffalo still puzzles me. 

I really appreciate everyone's help trying to figure out what happened. Nothing in the trap this morning.


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## Itort (Aug 13, 2013)

Looking the picture of damage done the previous day I would say rat. A carnivore (mongoose) or possum would have left canine (fang) tooth marks while a rodent would leave incisor marks, a single bite mark instead of two. Rats are very difficult to control with small prey animals. I would suggest looking into getting a bait station ( holds posion bait out of reach of all but rats), elevating this above the torts.


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## Baoh (Aug 13, 2013)

My intuition also suspects a rat or something very similar based on the information provided so far. A photo of the corpse may help, but I do not want you to feel pressed to share something you do not want to.


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## yagyujubei (Aug 13, 2013)

I originally thought rat immediately, but I'm leaning toward a mongoose here. Did the bitten edges of the shell appear to be chewed (like a dog would), or gnawed like a rat would? Most predators chew with their molars or carnassials, bout rats use their incisors. A rat would leave distinctive marks almost pointed in cross section with incisor marks on both the outside and inside of the shell. Rats aren't normally known as a diurnal hunter, whereas a mongoose is. Make sure that you bait with meat.


Since one wasn't eaten, and without bite marks, you have to consider the possibility that both died from another cause, and an opportunistic predator found and fed on one.


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## sunshine_hugs (Aug 13, 2013)

yagyujubei said:


> I originally thought rat immediately, but I'm leaning toward a mongoose here. Did the bitten edges of the shell appear to be chewed (like a dog would), or gnawed like a rat would? Most predators chew with their molars or carnassials, bout rats use their incisors. A rat would leave distinctive marks almost pointed in cross section with incisor marks on both the outside and inside of the shell. Rats aren't normally known as a diurnal hunter, whereas a mongoose is. Make sure that you bait with meat.
> 
> 
> Since one wasn't eaten, and without bite marks, you have to consider the possibility that both died from another cause, and an opportunistic predator found and fed on one.





The last part of what you said is something that has been on my mind a lot. 

Riddle (the one that was eaten), was a new member to our shelled family....she had just finished a quarantine, and I released her into the main pen with my others...I have 2 others that came to me at the same time as Riddle, but I'm just holding them for a friend. They are still in a separate pen, since they will be living with my friend next week.

I worry that Riddle may have had something wrong with her, that just wasn't visible...then, after something fed on her, Gruffalo (who eats anything) also fed on her, and maybe that's what killed him? 

BUT, there were the chips in Riddle's shell, and her weird behaviour, the day before she died...so maybe there was a predator after her. 

My hubby is going to buy more traps tomorrow, and I like the idea of baiting it with meat (should have been a given, but I didn't think of it). I will get our gardener to set traps for mongoose when he comes tomorrow...he does have possum traps in the yard, but we haven't caught one yet (even though I've seen a possum). 

As for the bite marks (sorry I didn't take pictures...we left them is a small box, and buried them this morning), the edges of the bottom shell almost seemed smooth...they ate her into a crescent moon shape, and cleaned out most of her insides. There was one organ left when I found her (I didn't expect close enough to see what it was, but it was in the centre, and looked to be attached to the top shell). And again, the top shell looked to be untouched. She still had her head, and 3 limbs (sorry, this is a lot of info). 

This is what the chips in her shell from the day before, looked like, for those who didn't see: 





The other torts still seem to be fine, although the oldest two (a year old) have been fighting a little (not breaking the skin, but they are in too close of quarters right now...I'm looking for one more bin so I can separate them). 

Thanks again for everyone's help. I'm so grateful, and will keep everyone posted on the outcome.


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## ShellyTurtlesCats (Aug 13, 2013)

So sorry. Poor babies.


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## sunshine_hugs (Aug 13, 2013)

My daughter (14), made this for Gruffalo and Riddle:


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## ILoveTortoises2 (Aug 13, 2013)

OH WOW.... Wow now I am putting 2 and 2 together. I remember you putting a thread about the baby tortoise had a bite or something on his/her shell. This is so sad. Poor little tortoise. 
At least you got all your other babies out of there so this doesn't happen again. Wish I could give you a big hug so you feel alittle better. I know a hug can sometimes make me feel better 
Keep your head up hun. Lets just worry about finding the rat that did this so it doesn't happen again. I think it is a great idea to put rat traps out. Hope you feel better soon hun.


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## DixieParadise (Aug 13, 2013)

Wow, I know what it is like to lose a pet. I am thinking along the lines of predator as well. Keep them covered or inside until you can discover what it is or was. Now that it knows were it can find food..it will probably come back.


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## SANDRA_MEISSNEST (Aug 13, 2013)

Yeah rat ot possum huge teeth they get them easily, we have one living in the neighbors yard my husband want to kill it now... because I don't want that my boxies going to die! let us know when you find it

Sent from my ZTE N9120 using TortForum mobile app


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## sunshine_hugs (Aug 13, 2013)

ILoveTortoises2 said:


> OH WOW.... Wow now I am putting 2 and 2 together. I remember you putting a thread about the baby tortoise had a bite or something on his/her shell. This is so sad. Poor little tortoise.
> At least you got all your other babies out of there so this doesn't happen again. Wish I could give you a big hug so you feel alittle better. I know a hug can sometimes make me feel better
> Keep your head up hun. Lets just worry about finding the rat that did this so it doesn't happen again. I think it is a great idea to put rat traps out. Hope you feel better soon hun.



Aww....this is beyond sweet! Thank you for this! 

I'm still at the point where I cry when I talk about them, but it's also still very, very fresh. My daughter and I had a nice talk and looked through a bunch of pictures today. It was nice.


And yes, we are keeping the other torts in a bin for now....the bin is outside during the day, inside at night. We will keep a similar set up until we find and kill the culprit (it sounds so mean, but as many people have said, now that it knows there's a food source here, it will come back). 

Carnival ends tonight, so stores will be back open tomorrow. Hubby will be getting more traps, and I will be getting more bins, as the remaining torts are stressed, being confined together in a small space. 

I will definitely post if / when we catch something.


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## Jabuticaba (Aug 13, 2013)

So sorry for your loss. I feel awful for you and your torts. They were so beautiful.


I just read the other posts and you mentioned possums, in the area. They can cause serious damage and they will kill small animals. When we lived in Brazil, our chicken coops had to be covered as well as lined with chicken wire, so the possums couldn't get in.


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## peasinapod (Aug 14, 2013)

Maybe you could put flour, soft sand or soft earth around the enclosure, so every animal that gets near it would leave tracks, this could help identify what animal did it.

I do not know if this works. :/

So sorry about your babies!


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## sunshine_hugs (Aug 14, 2013)

peasinapod said:


> Maybe you could put flour, soft sand or soft earth around the enclosure, so every animal that gets near it would leave tracks, this could help identify what animal did it.
> 
> I do not know if this works. :/
> 
> So sorry about your babies!




I like this idea. We actually have bags of sand sitting in our yard right now! Perfect. We'll still set the traps, but this could help identify the predator, and set appropriate traps.




Jabuticaba said:


> So sorry for your loss. I feel awful for you and your torts. They were so beautiful.
> 
> 
> I just read the other posts and you mentioned possums, in the area. They can cause serious damage and they will kill small animals. When we lived in Brazil, our chicken coops had to be covered as well as lined with chicken wire, so the possums couldn't get in.






Hmm...I know we have possums nearby, as I've seen them in our mango trees. All of our fruit trees are done producing right now, so maybe it's a hungry possum.


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## animalfreak (Aug 14, 2013)

I can't even begin to explain how sorry I am to hear that. I'm a huge animal lover and hearing this was just terrible. I hope you find the culprit and the rest of your little shelled friends are okay! So sorry! And don't blame yourself it will just make matters worse!


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## charleylilley (Aug 14, 2013)

I'm so sorry :'( good luck to you and rip r & g


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## sunshine_hugs (Aug 14, 2013)

animalfreak said:


> I can't even begin to explain how sorry I am to hear that. I'm a huge animal lover and hearing this was just terrible. I hope you find the culprit and the rest of your little shelled friends are okay! So sorry! And don't blame yourself it will just make matters worse!




Thank you so much. The rest of my little guys are still coming inside at night. We have more traps set tonight, with meat as bait, so we shall see. 

I'm also a huge animal lover, and feel guilty for setting traps to kill an animal that was just doing what comes natural....BUT I can't have anything hurting my torts...it's also my job to protect them. 

I'm trying to move on from blaming myself, but it's difficult not to. I still feel that I should have prevented it somehow.  But thank you...maybe it's just part of the grieving process. 

I'm just so thankful to be able to share on here, as most of my real life friends think I'm a little nuts when it comes to my tortoise love...hahaha. I think it's something you can't understand until you love a tortoise (or several of them). 




charleylilley said:


> I'm so sorry :'( good luck to you and rip r & g




Thank you.


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## animalfreak (Aug 14, 2013)

sunshine_hugs said:


> animalfreak said:
> 
> 
> > I can't even begin to explain how sorry I am to hear that. I'm a huge animal lover and hearing this was just terrible. I hope you find the culprit and the rest of your little shelled friends are okay! So sorry! And don't blame yourself it will just make matters worse!
> ...





I wouldn't let the traps get to you too much because having owning one before myself tortoises do become your pride and joy!! I don't think people know how much personality a tort can really have!


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## sunshine_hugs (Aug 15, 2013)

We caught something!! I'm not sure if I'm supposed to continue to post on this thread, or start a new one. 

We had several traps baited with meat last night, and caught something in the trap that we set exactly where I found Riddle eaten. It appears to be a mouse, but could be a baby rat...I don't know much about these things. I did take pictures, but not sure where to post, as the mouse / rat is dead and I don't want to upset anyone who's not expecting to see a dead animal. 

If it is a mouse, maybe it could still be the culprit, as it wanted the meat in our trap (I don't think this is common for a mouse). So, it's still possible that Riddle died from another cause, and the mouse fed on her (I can't see a mouse actually killing her)...and then maybe Gruffalo fed on her and was poisoned or something. 

Size wise, this could be what ate Riddle. I'm not satisfied enough to return the other torts to their pen. I will continue to set traps for a while, and see what happens. 

I'm also reworking their pen. I've pulled up all the weeds / plants incase there was something toxic in there, and I'm redoing their sleep box. Even once I do put the rest of the torts back in their big pen, I will probably continue to bring them inside at night for a while. 

Just wanted to share the news.


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## samsmom (Aug 15, 2013)

yay, i hope you have caught the villian!


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## yagyujubei (Aug 15, 2013)

Post the pics here. I would keep the traps out for awhile also.


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## sunshine_hugs (Aug 15, 2013)

I will definitely still be keeping the traps out. We have mouse traps, rat traps, and my gardener put out live traps for possums (might sound gross, but they eat them here). 

Here's what we caught....









I can't help but to feel bad for killing it. It was the size of a mouse (about 4" not counting the tail), but I can't tell if it's a mouse or baby rat.


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## sissyofone (Aug 15, 2013)

I do believe thats a rat. Its a bit big for a mouse. Imo And i feel the same way about killing anything. But i understand that sometimes, you just half to.


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## diaboliqueturtle (Aug 15, 2013)

I'm so so very sorry for your loss :-(
I'll add my 2 cents in that I lost 3 babies to a rat, and it went about it the same way you described, going for the soft parts. The rat was right there so there's no question as to who the culprit was. 
On feeling guilty about setting traps, I feed pinkies to my red foot and every time, I have a thought about my lost babies. Not sure exactly what that says about me though...


But it's part of the food chain too. They wouldn't hesitate to eat baby rats or mice if they came across a nest. Of course, none of that takes the pain of this loss away. 20 odd years later I still get teary eyed over them.


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## sunshine_hugs (Aug 15, 2013)

sissyofone said:


> I do believe thats a rat. Its a bit big for a mouse. Imo And i feel the same way about killing anything. But i understand that sometimes, you just half to.



Good to know. And I agree, it just has to be done. Next time I'll try to get my hubby to empty the trap though. 




diaboliqueturtle said:


> I'm so so very sorry for your loss :-(
> I'll add my 2 cents in that I lost 3 babies to a rat, and it went about it the same way you described, going for the soft parts. The rat was right there so there's no question as to who the culprit was.
> On feeling guilty about setting traps, I feed pinkies to my red foot and every time, I have a thought about my lost babies. Not sure exactly what that says about me though...
> 
> ...






Thanks for your input. Sorry you had to lose babies the same way...it's awful. 

I worked on their pen all day. I let the yearlings back in there to graze, but only while I was in there with them (it also doubles as my herb / veggie garden)....they are hating the small bin they're in. We're getting the supplies for a secure (solid walls) sleep box, so hopefully I'll be able to at least put the yearlings back soon.


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## yagyujubei (Aug 15, 2013)

That looks like a mouse to me. Probably not the culprit. Keep trying.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 15, 2013)

I think rats have smaller ears than that. And they have a more sinister-looking face.


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## SANDRA_MEISSNEST (Aug 15, 2013)

Dont feel sad,look u lost 2 babies. And u can loose more if u dont kill the one who did it.
So keep doing what u doing 
Sent from my ZTE N9120 using TortForum mobile app


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## WillTort2 (Aug 15, 2013)

Info from About .com

The Tale of the Tape for Common Rat and Mouse Adults:

Norway Rat: Heavy and Thick body, weigh 11 ounces or 300 grams
Roof Rat: Light and Slender Body, weigh 7 ounces or 200 grams
House Mouse: Small Head, Small Feet, weigh 0.5 ounce or 15 grams

Snout Shape of Common Rat and Mouse Adults:

Norway Rat: Blunt
Roof Rat: Pointed
House Mouse: Pointed

Ear Size and Hair of Common Rat and Mouse Adults:

Norway Rat: Short, Dark Hairs
Roof Rat: Large, No Hair
House Mouse: Large, Some Hair

Tail Coloration of Common Rat and Mouse Adults:

Norway Rat: Dark Above, Pale Underneath
Roof Rat: All Dark 
House Mouse: All Dark

Fur Color and Characteristics of Common Rat and Mouse Adults:

Norway Rat: Brown with Black Shading, Shaggy Coat
Roof Rat; Grey with Black Shading, Smooth Coat
House Mouse: Light Brown with Grey Shading
Shape of Common Rat and Mouse Adult Feces or Droppings:

Norway Rat: Capsule-Shaped
Roof Rat: Spindle-Shaped
House Mouse: Rod-Shaped

Daily Food Requirements of Common Adult Rats and Mice:

Norway Rat: 1 ounce or 28 grams
Roof Rat: 1 ounce or 28 grams
House Mouse: 0.1 ounce or 3 grams

Nest Locations of Common Adult Rats and Mice:

Norway Rat: Burrows, mostly
Roof Rat: Walls, Attics, Trees
House Mouse: Stored material

Litter Size and Frequency of Common Adult Rats and Mice:

Norway Rat: 8-12, 7 Litters per Year
Roof Rat: 6-8, 8 Litters per Year
House Mouse: 6-7, 8-10 Litters per Year

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My guess would be the Roof Rat based on description above. There could be other varieties of mice and rats also.


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## Kim444 (Aug 15, 2013)

While I do understand your need to capture whatever it is that killed your torts, even if you trap and kill 5 rats, who is to say more won't appear. All it takes is one night without a trap and it could happen again. Can you section off a place to leave them overnight with a protective cover, like metal screening. I know rats can't chew through metal.


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## Irish (Aug 15, 2013)

You have a good heart. I am more callous; when it comes to vermin roaches & ants-they all must die. Mice are dumb. Coming back to the same spot expecting food again fits but that is true of many animals. I think you should keep the traps out. Rats or mice- where you see 1 there are plenty more. Wood is not much of a barrier for them. Fortify methodically.


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## SANDRA_MEISSNEST (Aug 15, 2013)

I still think its a opossum

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## sibi (Aug 15, 2013)

I always thought it was a rat from the beginning. The pic of the culprit looks like a smaller rat to me. It's way too large to be a mouse. And there may be more! What if that was a baby rat? Where is the rest of the family or its mother? If the mom is nearby, you will lose more torts unless the enclosure is completely vermin proof.


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## ShellyTurtlesCats (Aug 15, 2013)

Oh man. Stupid rat!


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## sunshine_hugs (Aug 16, 2013)

Kim444 said:


> While I do understand your need to capture whatever it is that killed your torts, even if you trap and kill 5 rats, who is to say more won't appear. All it takes is one night without a trap and it could happen again. Can you section off a place to leave them overnight with a protective cover, like metal screening. I know rats can't chew through metal.



That's exactly that we're working on....I've started already. 


What we trapped sounds like a "roof rat" from the info that WillTortoise posted. I had many more traps set last night, all baited with meat, but caught nothing. 

A possum is still not out of the question, as I've seen them before. We have two different types of possum here...the common opossum, and a pygmy possum (it's the size of a mouse...I've only seen one that someone trapped and had as a pet, but I've been told they can be a nuisance). 

I will continue to set traps all around the enclosure. 

Also, does anyone have any ideas as to why Gruffalo would have died? He died during the day (was normal in the morning), and was untouched when I found him. It was like he was suddenly poisoned or something. Could he have died from feeding on Riddle (obviously he wasn't what ate most of her, but I have a feeling he still fed on a bit)?


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## Pokeymeg (Aug 16, 2013)

Gruffalo's unexplained death makes me wonder if something else killed your poor babies (something they ingested perhaps) and the rat was simply being opportunistic? 

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## sunshine_hugs (Aug 16, 2013)

Pokeymeg said:


> Gruffalo's unexplained death makes me wonder if something else killed your poor babies (something they ingested perhaps) and the rat was simply being opportunistic?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using TortForum mobile app




I'm suspicious of that as well. I actually pulled up every plant / weed in their enclosure, and have started replanting things I know are safe. 

We regularly have Cane Toads in their enclosure, and it particularly liked one of the hides...not sure if one of them had a run-in with the cane toad (they basically seemed to avoid each other and do their own thing that I saw).

Anyway, it will probably remain a mystery.


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## yagyujubei (Aug 17, 2013)

Any more luck?


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## sunshine_hugs (Aug 17, 2013)

We've continued to have empty traps, and we have tons set. I've even tried different kids of meats. 

BUT, I did get some crazy news. My landlady stopped by this afternoon, and told me she had the yard sprayed for ticks on Monday!! She said she told them about the tortoise pen (it's quite separate from the grassy part of the yard...difficult to explain), and the guy told her it was pet friendly stuff. 

I'm home 90% of the time, but happened to be out for a few hours on Monday morning...and it was Monday, just after noon, that I found Gruffalo and Riddle. So, could be a coincidence, but I'm thinking it's the tick stuff. Thankfully that rest of the torts are doing well. 

The yearlings, Hiccup & Pickles, are back in their pen. Their sleep box is now solid and secure. The hatchlings are still living in the bin right now. 

My landlady also informed us that they will be spraying for termites (the house has termites for sure)....so, I have a friend that is going to keep all my tortoises for a couple of weeks. He has a beautiful, very large, secure enclosure....and we got our hatchlings from the same couple...five of them are clutch mates (2 of his, and 3 of mine). 

I'm also relocating all of my potted plants (like the hibiscus, and rose, and my herbs and veggies). I've never lived in a house that's been sprayed with chemicals, so this is all new to me. I have kids, dogs, and tortoises...I would opt out of spraying (like, for ticks) if they gave me a choice.

So, that's where we're at. I'm still setting traps every night, and will continue to for a while.


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## Beck (Aug 17, 2013)

Oh wow! What may be pet friendly for a 5lb dog, may not be friendly to a 3oz baby tortoise. This may be one of the missing pieces to the puzzle.

I'm sorry again for your loss.

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## Team Gomberg (Aug 17, 2013)

And "pet friendly" for a dog who walks on the grass is different than for a turtle who EATS the grass.

Sorry for your losses. 
I think the tick spray is an important factor in solving what happened.

Sent from my TFOapp


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## yagyujubei (Aug 18, 2013)

It's surprising to me that insecticide spraying was scheduled by the landlady without first informing you, knowing about your pets. I would be sure to let her know that just a few hours later, two of your pets were dead. I think we have our explanation.


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## sissyofone (Aug 18, 2013)

Sounds like maybe the insecticide maybe to blame. I dont understand why your landlord didnt make you aware of this.  If thats what happened rats and mice are opportunistic and probably came along and fed on riddle afterwards. May i ask what makes you think Gruffalo (i think i spelled that right) was feeding on Riddle? I ask because i had no idea theyd do that.


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## Tjbemis (Aug 18, 2013)

I'm so sorry for your loss! Could Gruffalo have been bitten the previous day, when the other one was injured? You might not see a small rat bite, but it would surely kill a baby tort from infection w/in a day. Just a thought, the not knowing would drive me crazy too. 

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## sunshine_hugs (Aug 18, 2013)

sissyofone said:


> Sounds like maybe the insecticide maybe to blame. I dont understand why your landlord didnt make you aware of this.  If thats what happened rats and mice are opportunistic and probably came along and fed on riddle afterwards. May i ask what makes you think Gruffalo (i think i spelled that right) was feeding on Riddle? I ask because i had no idea theyd do that.






yagyujubei said:


> It's surprising to me that insecticide spraying was scheduled by the landlady without first informing you, knowing about your pets. I would be sure to let her know that just a few hours later, two of your pets were dead. I think we have our explanation.



Well, we live in the Caribbean, so normal rules don't really apply. I believe my landlady was trying to do something nice, but maybe didn't understand the full effect her actions could have. We're actually fortunate that we she's an animal lover...it's not overly common to find here. 

I did tell her about Riddle and Gruffalo....she seemed confused (she's kind of old ), but apologized if it was the tick spray. She said the guys stayed away from that area completely (we have a very large yard, and there is a huge cement wall separating the area that was sprayed, and the area where the tortoise pen is). 

I'm sure the stuff can carry with the wind?




Tjbemis said:


> I'm so sorry for your loss! Could Gruffalo have been bitten the previous day, when the other one was injured? You might not see a small rat bite, but it would surely kill a baby tort from infection w/in a day. Just a thought, the not knowing would drive me crazy too.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710 using TortForum mobile app



It is possible. We actually caught another mouse / small rat this morning. My husband disposed of it before I woke up, so I didn't get to see it (he said it was small, but got caught in the rat trap, so was mangled...I wouldn't have wanted to see it). 

The thing about the tick stuff that doesn't add up for sure, is that when I found Riddle eaten, it seemed like she wasn't freshly dead (sorry if this is too much info)...like she had been there for at least a few hours, minimum. The yard was sprayed sometime within a 3 hour window (that's how long I was away from home)...this mouse / rat seems to come early in the a.m (shortly before sunrise)...I think Riddle died overnight, from whatever got at her shell the day before. 

Anyway, like I said, this will probably always remain a mystery....we have many theories, but can't prove any of them for sure. 


Oh, and sissyofone, I don't know that Gruffalo fed on Riddle for sure. I have heard from other keepers that tortoises will feed on carrion...including a dead tortoise (the people we got the hatchlings from, keep about 50 redfoots...they had told me a story of when one died, how the others ate him....they were all fine). 
Gruffalo was a piggy...he loved food, and would actively seek out protein sources, like snails, millipedes, etc. He was my most active little one. It's definitely just an assumption on my part.


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## sissyofone (Aug 18, 2013)

Im still so sorry.  Im so glad your other babies are ok. Im wishing you all the best with them.


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## sibi (Aug 18, 2013)

There is one thing you can do that would require a little research on your part, but it can prove to be beneficial. Ask the old lady to give you the name of the company who put down the insecticide. Then ask the company to give you the main chemical ingredients, unless you already know it. Then get on the internet and find out if those chemicals in trace amounts could kill a 3 ounce baby tort, or post it here where some of our specialists could confirm the results. I think you may find your answer definitively.


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## sunshine_hugs (Aug 19, 2013)

sibi said:


> There is one thing you can do that would require a little research on your part, but it can prove to be beneficial. Ask the old lady to give you the name of the company who put down the insecticide. Then ask the company to give you the main chemical ingredients, unless you already know it. Then get on the internet and find out if those chemicals in trace amounts could kill a 3 ounce baby tort, or post it here where some of our specialists could confirm the results. I think you may find your answer definitively.




Thanks Sylvia. I can definitely do that. Since we're in the Caribbean, everything takes a little longer, but would be worth the peace of mind.


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## yagyujubei (Aug 19, 2013)

It would be interesting to see. US companies still sell DDT to third world countries. I'm not saying that Grenada is third world, but I'm sure the restrictions differ.


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## sunshine_hugs (Aug 19, 2013)

yagyujubei said:


> It would be interesting to see. US companies still sell DDT to third world countries. I'm not saying that Grenada is third world, but I'm sure the restrictions differ.




I actually believe it's still considered third world (or a "developing country"). There are not many restrictions here at all. I'm not very curious about the apparent "pet friendly" pesticide that was used.


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## SANDRA_MEISSNEST (Aug 19, 2013)

if you want to catch rats or mice you need to use peanut butter, that's the best recipe they come with in 1 hour

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## AnnV (Aug 22, 2013)

That looked like a white footed mouse. My barn is full of them and my cat brings them and leaves them on our doorstep. 
Mice could have done the damage you described, but I can't imagine they would be the killers. 

Ann from CT


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## ILoveTortoises2 (Aug 22, 2013)

Ok so they sprayed. But what was the tooth mark bite that was n it the day before or a few days before this happened? I still think it was a rat/mice. I don't know I think this will be a mystery. I'm very sorry for your loss. Keep those traps out and do NOT give up. Aslong as your other babies are safe right now that is what you need to take care of. Make sure it doesn't happen again. HUGS


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