# pyramiding



## Maggie Cummings (Mar 14, 2010)

I wish I knew I would be keeping track of his growth and pyramiding. I would have taken better pictures. 
So here is Bob when I first got him 6 years ago. He was 5 pounds. He was little and he'd steal the cats food...Anyhow, this is Bob at 5 years old and 5 pounds...







This is Bob at 7 years...






And Bob now at 11 years...






It doesn't ever go away completely, it becomes little peaks...So I don't know what the pictures show, Bob with a clean face??? It does show what I've always said, that if you correct the husbandry and make sure that the humidity is right and you feed correctly that the new growth will be smooth and the pyramiding will look less...


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## GBtortoises (Mar 14, 2010)

His pyramiding really isn't bad at all. There are far worse out there! While pyramided growth does not go away, your tortoise is proof that if changes are made when young enough that it can be subdued with a better diet and care.


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## Stephanie Logan (Mar 14, 2010)

AAaawwww, little Bob already being mischievous, eating the cat's food!

I can really see the "reduction" in the appearance of wrinkles and fine lines--oops, I mean pyramids! He's just such a handsome tort, waking up from his beauty sleep! "Time to go move some cement blocks"...


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## Tom (Mar 14, 2010)

I think I'm catching your drift Maggie. I've noticed this in a lot of the bigger sulcatas. There are a couple of hold ups with your theory though. Maybe you can explain these away for me and then we can agree 100%.

Hold up #1. My older sulcatas are exhibiting this very phenomenon you are expressing. And I've seen it in most of the other large adults I come across too. Problem is me and all these other keepers, didn't change any thing. It SEEMS to me that as they get bigger they just gradually start to smooth out on their own. This is the case for the mildly pyramided, well cared for ones, like mine and yours and my local friends here. This may not be the case for the extreme cases and poorly cared for ones.

Hold up #2. Daisy. I got her just to try to prove or disprove this very thing we are discussing. (Well, if I'm honest, I just wanted another one, but it still serves our discussion.) To reiterate for anyone whose not up to speed on Daisy: I got her at three months, heavily pyramiding in a "beef jerky maker" style set-up. Her initial set-up was a dry substrate with a large, very humid hide box, a la Richard and Jerry Fife's Leopard Tortoise book. She spent most of her time in the humid hide box. She slept in there all night, and during the day she'd come out to eat and run around a little then go right back in. After six months or so, no change in rate of pyramiding, so I went to a soil/orchid bark substrate, covered the top and kept everything very damp. Still no change after six months of this. For the last 8 or 9 months I've gone all out. She's got a wet hide box, wet 3" thick substrate, completely covered top, thorough mistings of the whole enclosure two or three times a day, and I've bumped the room humidity up to 50% all the time. The humidity inside her enclosure is usually in the 90's. I watch her very closely for shell rot or respiratory problems and have seen no sign of anything.

There has been no noticeable change in her rate of pyramiding. What I'm surmising from this is that whatever pattern is established in the first few months is very difficult to change. I don't know if you can take a smooth 6 month old, put it in a dry aquarium with a hot light and make it pyramid. Anyone ever done it this way (and willing to admit it)?

Daisy at 3 months, just days after I got her:





Daisy a couple of weeks ago, after nearly two years of humidity:


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 14, 2010)

But it's more than just humidity. You also have to feed a correct diet, give UVB and EXERCISE...

4 things are needed to prevent or stop pyramiding and if you don't correct all 4 the pyramiding won't change. So your Daisy needs to walk miles like they do in the wild, she needs to be fed a strict diet and she needs to be under a UVB light for 12 hours a day. So to me, in MY experience you need to have all 4 of those things lined up correctly. I think you can maybe ease up on the UVB, but exercise is a major part of that regimen, and I don't hear you talking about getting her to exercise. You seem to be locked in on humidity and preventing or stopping pyramiding is much more then just a lot of humidity...I think she needs to be put outside and walk, walk for miles or as close to miles as you can get...


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## GBtortoises (Mar 14, 2010)

Maggie-you read my mind! I've been "preaching" nearly the same thing for a long time now. Yet, some insist that you can simply "cure" pyramiding with added humidity alone. While lack of humidity (ambient air and substrate moisture combined) is definitely a contributing factor in the developmental growth of young tortoises so are several other factors. In my opinion many tortoises are being fed too much of a diet that is too rich in vitamins, too much supplemental vitamins, not nearly a high enough activity level (often due to lack of adequate space) and being kept too warm on a constant basis.


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## Tom (Mar 14, 2010)

maggie3fan said:


> But it's more than just humidity. You also have to feed a correct diet, give UVB and EXERCISE...
> 
> 4 things are needed to prevent or stop pyramiding and if you don't correct all 4 the pyramiding won't change. So your Daisy needs to walk miles like they do in the wild, she needs to be fed a strict diet and she needs to be under a UVB light for 12 hours a day. So to me, in MY experience you need to have all 4 of those things lined up correctly. I think you can maybe ease up on the UVB, but exercise is a major part of that regimen, and I don't hear you talking about getting her to exercise. You seem to be locked in on humidity and preventing or stopping pyramiding is much more then just a lot of humidity...I think she needs to be put outside and walk, walk for miles or as close to miles as you can get...



This is exactly my argument from all of my previous pyramiding postings. I contend that it is not those things and it IS just humidity. Daisy gets daily exercise for at least an hour or two in a big outdoor pen. Somedays its four or five hours. You've seen the size of my pens. This is the only time she's out of the humidity. Her indoor enclosure is 6x2'. Exercise? If mine don't get a lot of exercise, I don't know whose do. She can't get a better diet. You know what I feed. Freshly picked grasses, weeds, mulberry leaves, roses and leaves, two kinds of cactus, occasional Mazuri recently, and occasional spring mix and leafy greens. And you know she's undersize, so not over fed, just like my older ones. She's got cuttlebone and regular calcium supplementation. She gets soaked 5-6 times a week and I spray her food with water for extra hydration. If diet, exercise, hydration, calcium and UV had anything to do with it she'd be perfect and so would all of my older ones.

Forget Daisy. I've seen tortoises literally all over the world and this country. Doesn't matter what they are fed, how much exercise they get, whether or not they get additional calcium or UV. If they are housed humid, they don't pyramid, if they are housed dry they do. Did you see my post about the guy in Louisiana that raised his hatchling outside, in a shaded, small box, with dirt and feces for substrate on dog food? He was very large for his age, but totally smooth. Ever been to New Orleans. Its ALWAYS very humid there. I have a mountain of this anecdotal evidence from nearly two decades of trying to figure this out. The Fife's book planted this seed in my head and not only does what they said make perfect sense and work, I can't find anything, anywhere to contradict it.

Forget ALL of my anecdotal evidence AND Daisy. Have you read over this study?

http://africantortoise.com/_sulcatadiet2.pdf

I have. I've just re-read it for the sixth time. This is a repeatable, peer reviewable, legitimate scientific study proving what I am trying to say. It clearly states that diet had a negligible effect. Didn't matter what percentage of protein they were on. They all had the same size enclosures, UV, exercise, calcium, water... everything. The more humid they were the less they pyramided. The highest humidity group was "almost smooth". The lowest humidity group was significantly pyramided. It basically says all other factors were not a factor. I don't know how much more proof there could be.

I used to think and teach exactly what you are trying to tell me. Basically the same thing that it says on the africantortoise site and almost everywhere else on the internet or in books. I'm saying now that I WAS and YOU ARE wrong. The evidence, both anecdotal and scientific, doesn't support the whole combination of things concept. It does support the humidity only concept. I don't care about being right or wrong. There is no pride involved here. I just want me, you and everyone else to finally really know, what causes pyramiding, how to prevent it and how, if possible, to stop it once it starts. You know I think you are great and there is not once ounce of disrespect in this, so don't you get your feathers all ruffled with me. We have all been wrong about things in the past and I believe "the establishment" is wrong on this one. For how many years did we tell everyone that all desert species need it hot and dry ALL the time? That was clearly wrong and this latest info is just an extension of that.


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## zeec (Mar 14, 2010)

GBtortoises said:


> Maggie-you read my mind! I've been "preaching" nearly the same thing for a long time now. Yet, some insist that you can simply "cure" pyramiding with added humidity alone. While lack of humidity (ambient air and substrate moisture combined) is definitely a contributing factor in the developmental growth of young tortoises so are several other factors. In my opinion many tortoises are being fed too much of a diet that is too rich in vitamins, too much supplemental vitamins, not nearly a high enough activity level (often due to lack of adequate space) and being kept too warm on a constant basis.



With all due respect, the idea of humidity having anything to do with pyramiding is laughable. What exactly is the connection between low humidity and pyramiding? how does low humidity cause or even contribute to pyramiding? What exactly is the mechanism by which low humidity causes pyramiding? How does a diet rich in vitamins or a low activity level cause it? One can't simply say that it does, without any shred of objective evidence, based on anecdotes. You can't just say "I've been raising torts for 20 years and I know thats the cause," or " a very reputable vet told me so " 

Pyramiding is likely caused by low calcium levels secondary to either low calcium intake or low vit D3 levels causing a malabsorption of calcium. This causes the matrix of the bone to be spongy and low in density. Bone is constantly being turned over, when there is a lack of Calcium the resultant matrix is brittle, with a sponge like appearance and a low density. Now there is an objective way to absolutely measure this. This should have been done as a research study to put this issue to rest a long time ago.
1) Measure the density of bone via a Dual energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA scan) which would tell you if the pyramided bone is in fact osteoporotic or not by comparing to non pyramided shells in a control group. 
2) Measure the amount of vit D 25 hydroxy in both groups. This the most accurate measure of usable vit D
3) Measure the amount of ionized calcuim in both groups.

Compare the Data and put the issue to rest. 

Please don't take my post the wrong way. In no way do I mean to be antagonistic, just debating a topic


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## Shelly (Mar 14, 2010)

zeec said:


> Pyramiding is likely caused by low calcium levels secondary to either low calcium intake or low vit D3 levels causing a malabsorption of calcium. This causes the matrix of the bone to be spongy and low in density. Bone is constantly being turned over, when there is a lack of Calcium the resultant matrix is brittle, with a sponge like appearance and a low density. Now there is an objective way to absolutely measure this. This should have been done as a research study to put this issue to rest a long time ago.
> 1) Measure the density of bone via a Dual energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA scan) which would tell you if the pyramided bone is in fact osteoporotic or not by comparing to non pyramided shells in a control group.
> 2) Measure the amount of vit D 25 hydroxy in both groups. This the most accurate measure of usable vit D
> 3) Measure the amount of ionized calcuim in both groups.
> ...



It sounds to me like you are describing MBD, not pyramiding. They are 2 separate, distinct issues.


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## zeec (Mar 14, 2010)

Shelly said:


> zeec said:
> 
> 
> > Pyramiding is likely caused by low calcium levels secondary to either low calcium intake or low vit D3 levels causing a malabsorption of calcium. This causes the matrix of the bone to be spongy and low in density. Bone is constantly being turned over, when there is a lack of Calcium the resultant matrix is brittle, with a sponge like appearance and a low density. Now there is an objective way to absolutely measure this. This should have been done as a research study to put this issue to rest a long time ago.
> ...



I am describing pyramiding. MBD is a vague constellation of symptoms without any real criteria for diagnosis. I am saying that pyramiding is caused by low calcium not low humidity.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 14, 2010)

Tom:

I am willing to entertain your train of thought about if the tortoise has started to pyramid, nothing you can do will change that. Its going to go where it is headed without any intervention or outside help. However, your pictures of one tortoise do not a study make. It would be very interesting to see it happen to other tortoises besides just the one. It makes a lot of sense to me what you are saying.

Zeec: It has been proved and a paper written on the subject. Read:

http://www.ivorytortoise.com/information/documents/pyramiding_in_tortoises.html

by Richard Fife, a well-known and respected member of the tortoise community.


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## zeec (Mar 14, 2010)

emysemys said:


> Tom:
> 
> I am willing to entertain your train of thought about if the tortoise has started to pyramid, nothing you can do will change that. Its going to go where it is headed without any intervention or outside help. However, your pictures of one tortoise do not a study make. It would be very interesting to see it happen to other tortoises besides just the one. It makes a lot of sense to me what you are saying.
> 
> ...



That's exactly what i mean. we should be looking at a cohort with hundreds of animals to get accurate results. In the above studies again vit d3, or bone density were never measured. In the first study mentioned above calcium, phosphorus and hematocrit were measured. The problem with measuring calcium directly is that calcuim is so tightly controlled by the body that you hardly get any fluctuations in it if you did the animal would die. Hypo and hypercalcemia is very dangerous, which is why the body will destroy any existing bone matrix to keep the calcium level at a normal range. That is why bone density and vit D3 levels are the gold standards for diagnosing osteoporosis. The phosphorus level can fluctuate but is usually dependant on calcium homeostasis first. Finally a hematocrit level is of no help whatsoever when it comes to osteoporosis. 

The idea of protein affecting the shell growth can although be tested by measuring the total protein and albumin level. An albumin level is a good indicator of overall nutritional status. Calcium is bound to albumin usually so a very low albumin may affect calcium level as well but in a minor way. 

The last study mentioned. Two things stood out, first this statment; "During periods when food is plentiful the humidly is also increased, growth is rapid, and pyramiding is rare." which leads me to think " how do we know its not the high nutritional intake that caused the smooth growth? 
Secondly Ã¢â‚¬Å“that during dry conditions, dehydration reduces both intra- and inter-cellular pressures on soft cartilage at the areas of bone growth, which could lead to collapse of the soft tissue and subsequent ossification in the collapsed position.Ã¢â‚¬Â this is the only statement that attempted to provide a clear mechanism explaining the cause and effect, but fell short for me. For that to happen you would need a huge decrease in the total body fluid of more that 20% or so which would mean an extremely dehydrated animal on the verge of death. which is certainly not the case with most pyramided animals. 

My point is there are no large or small studies that looked at the objectives.When you raise animals under differnent conditions for a study the variables are too confounding and a cause and effect relation cannot be assumed. 

I don't mean to bore anyone, and I respect anyone's hard work towards a valid explanation whether it be Richard Fife or anyone else. I just don't buy it yet


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## zeec (Mar 14, 2010)

emysemys said:


> Zeec: It has been proved and a paper written on the subject. Read:
> 
> http://www.ivorytortoise.com/information/documents/pyramiding_in_tortoises.html
> 
> by Richard Fife, a well-known and respected member of the tortoise community.



Richard Fife's article hardly proves anything so I wouldn't say its been proven.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 14, 2010)

How much more proof do you need? He states in his article:

In 2003 the University of Veterinary Medicine in Vienna (Austria) finally quantified the importance of Ã¢â‚¬Å“HumidityÃ¢â‚¬Â in the environment of hatching tortoises, and also showed in their research that high levels of protein had little affect on Pyramiding (Wiesner CS, Iben C. 2003. Influence of environmental humidity and dietary protein on pyramidal growth of carapaces in African spurred tortoises (Geochelone sulcata). J Anim Physiol a Anim. Nutr 87:66-74).


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## zeec (Mar 14, 2010)

emysemys said:


> How much more proof do you need? He states in his article:
> 
> In 2003 the University of Veterinary Medicine in Vienna (Austria) finally quantified the importance of Ã¢â‚¬Å“HumidityÃ¢â‚¬Â in the environment of hatching tortoises, and also showed in their research that high levels of protein had little affect on Pyramiding (Wiesner CS, Iben C. 2003. Influence of environmental humidity and dietary protein on pyramidal growth of carapaces in African spurred tortoises (Geochelone sulcata). J Anim Physiol a Anim. Nutr 87:66-74).



what proof are you talking about here, because he sites another author that means he proved anything? He doesn't offer any data of his own.I would hardly call that proof or a study. The Vienna study is the same study sited earlier, that again didn't prove objectively any relationship or offer a plausible explanation. If you raise 20 or 30 hatchlings with or without humidity and some have slightly more pyramiding in the non-humid group that doesn't mean it was a cause and effect. If you don't get that, I don't know what else to tell you. 

...If you are convinced that humidity causes pyramiding, please enlighten me, How does lack of humidity cause pyramiding?


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 14, 2010)

I don't know how to prove anything that we are talking about, as it is all over my head now. All I have for proof is Bob. He was starting to pyramid when I got him. I corrected the husbandry...80% or so ambient humidity, hours daily of UVB light, correct diet, and exercise. I don't use any supplements on him. I feed him a varied diet, he has no direct humidity now but he did for the first couple of years I had him, and miles of exercise.
I can only say over and over...it takes all 4 of those things to correct/prevent growing pyramiding. I don't know how or why they work, but they do. Look at Bob. You are saying that's not good enough...you are wanting to see a tortoise that was badly pyramided and now he's not. But all I have is one tortoise who was starting to pyramid and I got it to stop. You are wanting to make it complex and hard. But it's not complex, it's not hard. It's easy...4 things to prevent or stop pyramiding and they work. That's what it is. It's simple and you want to make it hard. Get me a badly pyramided Sulcata and I'll get it to stop. There's your challenge...that's my offer. I'll get bad pyramiding to stop from the time he's in my hands. Because you are making this hard and it's not, it's simple...


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## zeec (Mar 14, 2010)

maggie3fan said:


> I don't know how to prove anything that we are talking about, as it is all over my head now. All I have for proof is Bob. He was starting to pyramid when I got him. I corrected the husbandry...80% or so ambient humidity, hours daily of UVB light, correct diet, and exercise. I don't use any supplements on him. I feed him a varied diet, he has no direct humidity now but he did for the first couple of years I had him, and miles of exercise.
> I can only say over and over...it takes all 4 of those things to correct/prevent growing pyramiding. I don't know how or why they work, but they do. Look at Bob. You are saying that's not good enough...you are wanting to see a tortoise that was badly pyramided and now he's not. But all I have is one tortoise who was starting to pyramid and I got it to stop. You are wanting to make it complex and hard. But it's not complex, it's not hard. It's easy...4 things to prevent or stop pyramiding and they work. That's what it is. It's simple and you want to make it hard. Get me a badly pyramided Sulcata and I'll get it to stop. There's your challenge...that's my offer. I'll get bad pyramiding to stop from the time he's in my hands. Because you are making this hard and it's not, it's simple...



I don't mean to make anything complex, its quite the opposite. All I am saying is that you need some sunlight and a good diet to avoid pyramiding. That's all. I'm all for simplicity but I am just stating the facts behind my reasoning. When someone makes a claim for low humidity without evidence-based facts, is it wrong to challenge them? The more we are challenged, the more we will understand. Ultimately its for the benefit of tortoises.



maggie3fan said:


> ...you are wanting to see a tortoise that was badly pyramided and now he's not.



I never said that. I said get some pyramided tortoises, some non-pyramided tortoise and compare their bone density and Vit D level. This will give you accurate, measurable data that can be compared.


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## Stephanie Logan (Mar 14, 2010)

I think it was Roachman who spent time in South Africa, where he saw tons of Leopard tortoises in the wild, and none of them were pyramided (?) And hasn't that been true across all species, that when they are not captive born, they are not pyramided?

So my question would be: what is different about a tortoise's diet and habitat in the wild as opposed to in captivity? And it would seem then that Maggie's theory about humidity and endless exercise is logical and "proven" in the sense that only captive tortoises kept in (varying) captive conditions end up pyramided.

There has to be something(s) that all wild tortoises experience that contributes to universally smooth shells, so if one could do a study with wild tortoises as the "control group", maybe some of the beliefs stated in this thread could be scientifically proven.


[My apologies if I got the "wild tortoises don't pyramid" concept wrong...I looked and looked for that thread but couldn't find it to cite.  ]


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## zeec (Mar 14, 2010)

Stephanie Logan said:


> I think it was Roachman who spent time in South Africa, where he saw tons of Leopard tortoises in the wild, and none of them were pyramided (?) And hasn't that been true across all species, that when they are not captive born, they are not pyramided?
> 
> So my question would be: what is different about a tortoise's diet and habitat in the wild as opposed to in captivity? And it would seem then that Maggie's theory about humidity and endless exercise is logical and "proven" in the sense that only captive tortoises kept in (varying) captive conditions end up pyramided.
> 
> ...



Wild tortoises do pyramid as well. A tortoise can go through periods of poor intake in the wild. That's a fact, this will affect their calcium intake. They will have to remodel or reabsorb bone matrix to keep calcium homeostasis. 

By your logic, why would some tortoises pyramid in the wild in the same environment as others who don't, Isn't the humidity level the same?


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 14, 2010)

While I was standing in the shower just now I got to thinking about it. I have head-started I don't know...50?...100? Anyhow how ever many there were Gopherus agassizii I head-started for Clovis Turtle and Tortoise Rescue and not a one had a bump on it's carapace when it was adopted out. Granted they don't pyramid the way Sulcata do, but they were still smooth. I also raised Tony Stewart, Sulcata, from 24 hours old to about 3 years old and when he was adopted out he was only slightly pyramided, I blinded him but he wasn't pyramided...

Who made a claim for low humidity? Did I miss that? Anyhow Tom, all 4 things need to be in place. If one is not right then you have a pyramided animal. I think you are making it more difficult then it is. You are looking for reasoning that is not there. And you are still missing the exercise part. Daisy needs to walk miles every day. I think that is a key part you are not understanding. Yes I have been to New Orleans, several times it has miserable humidity.


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## zeec (Mar 14, 2010)

maggie3fan said:


> While I was standing in the shower just now I got to thinking about it. I have head-started I don't know...50?...100? Anyhow how ever many there were Gopherus agassizii I head-started for Clovis Turtle and Tortoise Rescue and not a one had a bump on it's carapace when it was adopted out. Granted they don't pyramid the way Sulcata do, but they were still smooth. I also raised Tony Stewart, Sulcata, from 24 hours old to about 3 years old and when he was adopted out he was only slightly pyramided, I blinded him but he wasn't pyramided...
> 
> Who made a claim for low humidity? Did I miss that? Anyhow Tom, all 4 things need to be in place. If one is not right then you have a pyramided animal. I think you are making it more difficult then it is. You are looking for reasoning that is not there. And you are still missing the exercise part. Daisy needs to walk miles every day. I think that is a key part you are not understanding. Yes I have been to New Orleans, several times it has miserable humidity.



Tom is differnent person, my name is Robert . I think the reasoning is definitely there and its not easily refutable. Low humidity as a basis of pyramiding is what previous posters argued and cited Richard Fife's article. Regardless, we all have or opinions. Goodnight.


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 14, 2010)

I used the name Tom because it was Tom to whom I was speaking. I know who I was directing my words to and it was Roachman, Tom. Zeec, you are new here and while you have made great reasoning I feel it was Yvonne you were talking to and not I. 

Tom was the only person I was talking to. Zeec, I had been directing my words to him, I apologize for not making that more obvious. You came in the middle of the conversation and if you would read back you will see that you were talking to Yvonne and I was talking to Roachman.
This has been a matter of misunderstanding. So I think I will save anymore for tomorrow...


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## zeec (Mar 15, 2010)

maggie3fan said:


> Zeec, you are new here and while you have made great reasoning I feel it was Yvonne you were talking to and not I.



I was actually one of the first people to join this forum when it first started in 08.


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## Annieski (Mar 15, 2010)

I know I'm new to tortoise and their care in captivity, but In My Opinion, the reason this is soooo debatable is because there doesn't seem to be any "absolute values" for what it takes to raise a tortoise[the same way Mother Nature does]. Just because someone had good luck with "85% humidity, doesn't mean that is an absolute. The temperatures and relative humidity are different every day no matter where you are in the world. Calcium is as important for humans as it is for tortoise, for strong bones[shells] for humans[age and weight appropriate] average female 600iu with vitamin D,1xdaily. Where does it tell you on the Reptical with D3 what a "sprinkle" or "dusting" actually means. I just "dusted" Morty's food with the reptical. After she was finished with what I gave her to eat, she found her cuttle bone leaning in her water dish. She devoured half of a LARGE bone right in front of me--- is she now overdosed with calcium--- did she JUST want to keep her beak clean?--- maybe now she won"t touch the bone for weeks? I don't know. But neither does anyone else. I believe we can only follow the guidelines[however vague] and hope for the best. Sometimes, things go wrong---even when you do everything right.


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## chadk (Mar 15, 2010)

Do hatchling tortoises in the wild spend more time in the direct sun on hot dry dusty sand, or more time in a borrow that has higher humidity than the surrounding open air habitat? Does anyone know the typical ambient humidity in the regions of Africa where you'd find Sulcatas? How much does it vary based on time of year (emphasis on the the period of time right after hatching). Where do the hatchlings sleep? 

From what I've seen, sullies raised on decent diet with calcium suppliments, under hot lamps and dry substrate will definately have serious pyramiding issues.


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 15, 2010)

chadk said:


> Do hatchling tortoises in the wild spend more time in the direct sun on hot dry dusty sand, or more time in a borrow that has higher humidity than the surrounding open air habitat? Does anyone know the typical ambient humidity in the regions of Africa where you'd find Sulcatas? How much does it vary based on time of year (emphasis on the the period of time right after hatching). Where do the hatchlings sleep?
> 
> From what I've seen, sullies raised on decent diet with calcium suppliments, under hot lamps and dry substrate will definately have serious pyramiding issues.



Right now in the part of Sulcata range that I follow it is 10 PM with a temp of 68 degrees and an ambient humidity of 88%


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## chadk (Mar 15, 2010)

That's some serious humidity. And it would be even more humid in a burrow...


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## zeec (Mar 15, 2010)

chadk said:


> That's some serious humidity. And it would be even more humid in a burrow...



That's just an association at best NOT a causality. Do you understand the difference? Its like me saying that people in humid parts of africa die of heart attacks more often than peolple in a dry area like arizona for example, so that means humidity causes more heart attacks. You can not attribute one to the other. I don't know why is that so difficult to understand. You still don't even say why you think low humidity causes pyramiding. Really I would love to hear what the mechanism is? I would love to hear anything that remotely comes even close to an explanation.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 15, 2010)

Does this make any sense to you:

"research suggests that they (pyramid lumps) are caused by a mismatch
of water/humidity and food resources. Dry conditions would go hand in hand
with very low levels of available food in the wild. Tortoises that live in areas
of their natural range which happen to have more water resources will also
have more plants growing there. A lot of food and too little water/humidity is
strongly associated with pyramiding. So it isn't too much food per se that is
the issue, but too little water for the available food."


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## chadk (Mar 15, 2010)

zeec said:


> chadk said:
> 
> 
> > That's some serious humidity. And it would be even more humid in a burrow...
> ...



Forget pyramiding for a second.... If their natural habitat is high in humidity, then surely that is one key ingredient a good sulcata keeper will try to provide as part of good husbandry. Agree?

Now does it play a part a in pyramiding? Not a 100% sure, but it seems likely, and it is part of what you should provide anyway, so it should be listed on any decent sulcata caresheet as a requirement.


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## zeec (Mar 15, 2010)

emysemys said:


> Does this make any sense to you:
> 
> "research suggests that they (pyramid lumps) are caused by a mismatch
> of water/humidity and food resources. Dry conditions would go hand in hand
> ...



This writer is using water and humidity interchangeably (water/humidity). which is inaccurate " So it isn't too much food per se that is the issue, but too little water for the available food." so he/she is implying dehydration not low humidity as the cause. You can have a dehydrated tortoise in 100% humidity and visa versa. Water intake and humidity are two different things. Did they cite this research by the way?


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## Tom (Mar 16, 2010)

Zeec, I don't know what the mechanism is for the sky being Blue. I don't know how to explain, in proper scientific terms, why the sky is blue. I CAN tell you that the sky IS blue. Because I haven't yet learned the exact mechanism of why its blue and how to clearly explain it, doesn't mean that it isn't blue. If all that was needed to prevent pyramiding was some calcium and sunshine, then mine wouldn't be pyramided. I have seen tortoises literally all over the world and one thing is consistent: If a hatchling is raised in a humid area, it DOES NOT pyramid. Conversely, if it is raised in a dry area it does. The care, diet, UV, sunshine, exercise, temps and calcium supplementation do not seem to matter. Humidity is the ONLY consistent factor. I don't expect you or anyone else to just take my word for it and that's why I posted the legitimate Austrian study that says almost exactly the same thing that I'm saying. My sulcatas have always had the best of care. Correct thermal gradient, lots of sunshine year round, great varied diet, huge outdoor pens for exercise, huge indoor pens for night time and the occasional cold day, calcium and vitamin supplementation (but, not too much), regular soaks for hydration, etc... I even underfed them to get them to grow slower. They were also, intentionally, kept very dry. I did this because that's what everyone said you were supposed to do back then. I was ignorant. If they are not pyramided because of low humidity, then please explain why they are. Instead of me telling you why humidity prevents pyramiding, why don't you tell me/us why tortoises that have all of your conditions met, still pyramided? If you need more info on my care, I'm happy to give it. As I said before, there is no pride here, I just want the truth about pyramiding to be known.

Maggie, would you please explain why tortoises that have all four of your requirements met still pyramid AND why some tortoises that have none of your requirements met don't. Please tell me why MY tortoises have all pyramided. I seem to have met all of your 4 required things, EXCEPT humidity. You seem to be basing a lot of your argument on Bob. Well, central CA and Washington are a lot more humid than the CA high desert. Might that have something to do with it? You also didn't address what I said about all of them smoothing out over time when they get bigger, regardless of conditions. All tortoises SHOULD be getting the four important things you mentioned. Those things are all part of properly caring for a captive tortoise. I'm saying that they can grow up completely smooth with none of those things. I've seen it! Repeatedly.

For everyone on both sides of this discussion, please understand there is no disrespect here. It is my sincere hope that this discussion, and others like it, will lead to the understanding and eradication of pyramiding. Several people seem to still believe that it is caused by several factors involving poor care. No one has offered any explanation to me about the ones I've seen with my own eyes that have grown up smooth in the poorest of care.


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## Annieski (Mar 16, 2010)

Perhaps the last line of your post offers the key. In the wild, I don't think it is as much "poor care" as it is availability of dietary requirements. It has often been mentioned here that "hatchlings" will not readily eat hays or dried grasses and weeds. As "keepers" - what do we do?--- we offer chicory, endive, spring mix--- to delight ourselves with growing and thriving tortoises in captivity. There is no one on the Sahara to make these provisions in the wild except Mother Nature During the Rainy Season. Best case -- all babies hatch as rainy season ends--- food for all. The scutes on a tortoise carpace are best likened to our fingernails or horse hooves. Functional Keratin is responsible for SKIN[soft keratin] and fingernails[hard keratin]. Keratin is a protien. The cells originate in the dermal layer and upon reaching the surface, they die to form the protective surface layer. Think of a baby's fingernails and how soft they are when newborn. I know there is a difference in the animal kingdom, but the similarities are there. I believe that the main cause of pryamiding is "too rapid growth" for captive torts, with the other factors that have been mentioned," the big four", all contributing to the mix. Even as a hatchling, looking foor food during the "dry season" will give me my UV and D3, exercise, and when I'm exhausted, find a humid burrow one of my cousins left[while looking for food]. Also, could the burrows that are dug, just be dug because there is "the absense of HEAT" and since a Sulcata will pee wherever it wants, create the Humid Hide we believe is "necessary" for a smooth shell?


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## GBtortoises (Mar 16, 2010)

Well said Annieski & Roachman!


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## zeec (Mar 16, 2010)

Roachman26 said:


> Zeec, I don't know what the mechanism is for the sky being Blue. I don't know how to explain, in proper scientific terms, why the sky is blue. I CAN tell you that the sky IS blue. Because I haven't yet learned the exact mechanism of why its blue and how to clearly explain it, doesn't mean that it isn't blue. If all that was needed to prevent pyramiding was some calcium and sunshine, then mine wouldn't be pyramided. I have seen tortoises literally all over the world and one thing is consistent: If a hatchling is raised in a humid area, it DOES NOT pyramid. Conversely, if it is raised in a dry area it does. The care, diet, UV, sunshine, exercise, temps and calcium supplementation do not seem to matter. Humidity is the ONLY consistent factor. I don't expect you or anyone else to just take my word for it and that's why I posted the legitimate Austrian study that says almost exactly the same thing that I'm saying. My sulcatas have always had the best of care. Correct thermal gradient, lots of sunshine year round, great varied diet, huge outdoor pens for exercise, huge indoor pens for night time and the occasional cold day, calcium and vitamin supplementation (but, not too much), regular soaks for hydration, etc... I even underfed them to get them to grow slower. They were also, intentionally, kept very dry. I did this because that's what everyone said you were supposed to do back then. I was ignorant. If they are not pyramided because of low humidity, then please explain why they are. Instead of me telling you why humidity prevents pyramiding, why don't you tell me/us why tortoises that have all of your conditions met, still pyramided? If you need more info on my care, I'm happy to give it. As I said before, there is no pride here, I just want the truth about pyramiding to be known.



I thought we can have an intelligent, conscientious discussion and present fact- my mistake. I guess it will always be anecdotal at best. I have presented you with an excact mechanism of how pyramiding based on calcuim and vit D3 works . Beacuse you have had pyramiding despite that, you automatically attribute it to humidity regardless of not having any reasoning why this would happen. There may have been several environmental and dietary factors, You even say you underfed your animals at times! I don't wanna keep beating a dead horse. I don't go around preaching vit D and calcium because it has not been proven yet, and this is the first time i've written about it. But it seems silly to me that when you don't know why something occurs, as in humidity and pyramiding, that you so full heartedly endorse it and preach it to all. It's amazing to me how the same opinions based on fallacies are reiterated from one forum to another. Despite what you think this has a tremendous effect on how tortoises are raised. Already on this forum this happening http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-13143.html. I too have seen many tortoises around the world and have come to a different conclusion, so I don't base my opinions merely on personal experience and anecdotes. I have written, published and reviewed many articles and can tell you without a doubt that the vienna study has many shortcomings, it would be unwise to base any opinion on it.


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## Tom (Mar 16, 2010)

I thought we can have an intelligent, conscientious discussion and present fact- my mistake. I guess it will always be anecdotal at best. I have presented you with an excact mechanism of how pyramiding based on calcuim and vit D3 works . Beacuse you have had pyramiding despite that, you automatically attribute it to humidity regardless of not having any reasoning why this would happen. There may have been several environmental and dietary factors, You even say you underfed your animals at times! I don't wanna keep beating a dead horse. I don't go around preaching vit D and calcium because it has not been proven yet, and this is the first time i've written about it. But it seems silly to me that when you don't know why something occurs, as in humidity and pyramiding, that you so full heartedly endorse it and preach it to all. It's amazing to me how the same opinions based on fallacies is reiterated from one forum to another. Despite what you think this has a tremendous effect on how tortoises are raised. Already on this forum this happening http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-13143.html. I too have seen many tortoises around the world and have come to a different conclusion, so I don't base my opinions merely on personal experience and anecdotes. I have written, published and reviewed many articles and can tell you without a doubt that the vienna study has many shortcomings, it would be unwise to base any opinion on it.
[/quote]

I don't see anything unintelligent about this discussion and I don't see you answering my question. If its not humidity then why did mine pyramid despite ample sunshine and calcium? How can you dismiss such repeated, obvious observations? What is flawed with the Austrian study? Seems perfectly legit to me. Just because someones observations are different than yours does not mean they are not conscientious or intelligent.


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## zeec (Mar 16, 2010)

Roachman26 said:


> I thought we can have an intelligent, conscientious discussion and present fact- my mistake. I guess it will always be anecdotal at best. I have presented you with an excact mechanism of how pyramiding based on calcuim and vit D3 works . Beacuse you have had pyramiding despite that, you automatically attribute it to humidity regardless of not having any reasoning why this would happen. There may have been several environmental and dietary factors, You even say you underfed your animals at times! I don't wanna keep beating a dead horse. I don't go around preaching vit D and calcium because it has not been proven yet, and this is the first time i've written about it. But it seems silly to me that when you don't know why something occurs, as in humidity and pyramiding, that you so full heartedly endorse it and preach it to all. It's amazing to me how the same opinions based on fallacies is reiterated from one forum to another. Despite what you think this has a tremendous effect on how tortoises are raised. Already on this forum this happening http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-13143.html. I too have seen many tortoises around the world and have come to a different conclusion, so I don't base my opinions merely on personal experience and anecdotes. I have written, published and reviewed many articles and can tell you without a doubt that the vienna study has many shortcomings, it would be unwise to base any opinion on it.
> 
> 
> I don't see anything unintelligent about this discussion and I don't see you answering my question. If its not humidity then why did mine pyramid despite ample sunshine and calcium? How can you dismiss such repeated, obvious observations? What is flawed with the Austrian study? Seems perfectly legit to me. Just because someones observations are different than yours does not mean they are not conscientious or intelligent.



What exactly do you mean by Perfectly "legit" ?.....

Because your animals pyramided with calcium and sunshine that means nothing. How do you know how much calcium the animals where getting? did you measure it?, how much vit D3 from sunshine? was it sunny all the time? did u have them out exactly for the same amount of tim? How do you know if they weren't calcium and vit d deficien? Did you do any blood tests?if so what did you measure and at what intervals? How big of a group did you use? Over what period of time? Maybe you didn't follow them long enough? did you have a control group? What was the humidity every day? what was it at different times of the day?where any of them ill? maybe they were stressed out from not being "overfed." How do you define and quantify pyramiding?Did you measure in millimeters or just looked at it?. How much pyramiding occurred and over what period of time?. which periods showed more pyramiding. anyone can go on and on about this, which was my original point, there are too many confounding factors that looking at blood levels of vit d and bone density scans can give us something objective and irrefutable.


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## Annieski (Mar 16, 2010)

"In my opinion", I think part of the reason this topic[as well as many others],is so confounding, is the LACK of research or study for the specific topics. Even if you have "kept" tortoise for thirty or forty years--- what length of time is that for a species that has survived for thousands, if not millions. Just look at human medicine-- drugs are "tested" for sometimes 15 to 20 years before getting to the general population and even then what is good for 200 may not be ok for 201. I think for a species to have evolved for all these years in the wild, there must be mechanisms in place for adaptation and mutations. I do believe there are "guidelines" that can be followed for every species of being, simplly because in our world-- if there is enough of a demand---it will be met[ ^ patient load = ^ reptile vets] But if there are only limited studies done, pertaining to a specific species, there will only be limited info available, thus, lumping similar species together[birds come under reptiles because of similar characteristics]. That doesn't mean the care is identical--- just similar. I believe Mother Nature's enviornment is way too variable, at any given time, to be able to have a "control group" to prove once and for all the cause of pryamiding. Perhaps that in itself is what prevents it in the wild--- the constant changes and how the animal adapts to the surroundings.

Just to add--- looked up the weather in Chad, Africa for today----high 105F low 79F humidity 19% dewpoint 55F
Also looked at some of the temps in other areas that Sulcata are found and not only were temps surprisingly low 84--87F the humidity was just as low 4--9%. Interesting!


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## Stephanie Logan (Mar 16, 2010)

So are we any closer to some practical guidelines for amateur tortoise keepers to provide the best possible microclimate for a smooth healthy shell?

Robert, do you: 
1) Measure the density of bone via a Dual energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA scan) which would tell you if the pyramided bone is in fact osteoporotic or not by comparing to non pyramided shells in a control group. 
2) Measure the amount of vit D 25 hydroxy in both groups. This the most accurate measure of usable vit D
3) Measure the amount of ionized calcuim in both groups.

Have you reached any conclusions that could be made into recommendations for the rest of us? What do you do for your own tortoises?


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## chadk (Mar 16, 2010)

Annieski said:


> I believe that the main cause of pryamiding is "too rapid growth" for captive torts,



I've seen too many badly pyramided, yet very stunted torts to go for this. Unless somehow rapid growth can equate to not growing...


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## Tom (Mar 16, 2010)

What exactly do you mean by Perfectly "legit" ?.....

Because your animals pyramided with calcium and sunshine that means nothing. How do you know how much calcium the animals where getting? did you measure it?, how much vit D3 from sunshine? was it sunny all the time? did u have them out exactly for the same amount of tim? How do you know if they weren't calcium and vit d deficien? Did you do any blood tests?if so what did you measure and at what intervals? How big of a group did you use? Over what period of time? Maybe you didn't follow them long enough? did you have a control group? What was the humidity every day? what was it at different times of the day?where any of them ill? maybe they were stressed out from not being "overfed." How do you define and quantify pyramiding?Did you measure in millimeters or just looked at it?. How much pyramiding occurred and over what period of time?. which periods showed more pyramiding. anyone can go on and on about this, which was my original point, there are too many confounding factors that looking at blood levels of vit d and bone density scans can give us something objective and irrefutable.
[/quote]

Legitimate. Valid. Holding up to the scrutiny of the scientific community. Clear enough?

Those are a whole bunch of ridiculous inflammatory questions. They don't deserve a response.

You need to come back to the real world where regular people have tortoises as pets and share rational, real world observations. A normal, healthy tortoise who is out in the Southern CA sun several hours almost every day should certainly be making enough D3 for the purposes of our discussion. The exact amount produced and measured by the hour is not relevant. 

You are still dodging the issue. If you want to be taken seriously you need to explain how all of my observations and the same observations of many others are wrong.

BTW, who are you? What species do you keep and how many? How many decades of practical, real world experience do you have to back up what you are saying?

If we are all so wrong and off base, then surely you must have the CORRECT answer to this enigma. Please enlighten us. All I hear you saying is that we are wrong and jumping to conclusions. Logically, if you know that we are wrong, then you must also know what is right, right? You keep saying that we don't have the scientific basis to be making these claims, but I'm not hearing any scientific facts to back up yours.

It is absurd and foolish to just blatantly disregard decades of hands on experience. All the science in the world can't be substituted for years of professional hands on work. Remember the top scientists of the world used to think the world was flat and defended that premise vigorously. All it took was one guy to sail around a little bit and say, "hey, I didn't fall off the edge".

Anyhow, unless you can come back with something better than your last few posts, I'll just leave you to your opinion. You raise your tortoises how you want and I'll do the same. In a few years time we'll have living proof that one or the other of us was wrong. Maybe we should leave the debate until then. Once one or the other of us is able to raise up some smooth ones. Until then, the WHOLE discussion is nothing but academic anyway.


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## zeec (Mar 16, 2010)

Roachman26 said:


> Legitimate. Valid. Holding up to the scrutiny of the scientific community. Clear enough?



Thanks for the definition of legitimate... Did you or the scientific community examine the research? Did you look at the Power of the study, the confidence intervals, the P values? the methods? the data analysis ?to name a few. Just saying " it seems perfectly legit" is a joke to anyone who knows anything about stats or conducting research.



Roachman26 said:


> You need to come back to the real world where regular people have tortoises as pets and share rational, real world observations. A normal, healthy tortoise who is out in the Southern CA sun several hours almost every day should certainly be making enough D3 for the purposes of our discussion. The exact amount produced and measured by the hour is not relevant



Thats your answer to a scintefic method. just come back to the reall world? what about calcium content of. You sprinkle some calcium on some weeds and that means they are getting enough calcium?



Roachman26 said:


> You are still dodging the issue. If you want to be taken seriously you need to explain how all of my observations and the same observations of many others are wrong.




No, you have to explain why you are right. you have to show us the connection between humidity and pyramiding. I only have to prove why I'm right not why you are wrong. In any case you seem to think its hot and humid where sulcata's live which is wrong, It's not humid.



Roachman26 said:


> BTW, who are you? What species do you keep and how many? How many decades of practical, real world experience do you have to back up what you are saying?




I raise T. Kleinmanni. I have a huge breeding goup and have years of experience. I've raised hatchlings on 100% pure bone dry sand with no pyramiding what so ever.



Roachman26 said:


> If we are all so wrong and off base, then surely you must have the CORRECT answer to this enigma. Please enlighten us. All I hear you saying is that we are wrong and jumping to conclusions. Logically, if you know that we are wrong, then you must also know what is right, right? You keep saying that we don't have the scientific basis to be making these claims, but I'm not hearing any scientific facts to back up yours.



Have you read the thread? I've explained that already more then once. Go to the start and read.



Roachman26 said:


> It is absurd and foolish to just blatantly disregard decades of hands on experience. All the science in the world can't be substituted for years of professional hands on work.



You yourself have said that for years you followed what was concered to be expert advice from people who have decades of experience and now they've been proven wrong. 



Roachman26 said:


> Remember the top scientists of the world used to think the world was flat and defended that premise vigorously. All it took was one guy to sail around a little bit and say, "hey, I didn't fall off the edge".
> 
> Another great example of why you shouldn't listen to the "experts." You have to base your reasoning on fact and objectives not what someone tells without evidence. I'm not saying i'm a scientist so believe me, I'm saying look at the facts.
> 
> ...


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## Stephanie Logan (Mar 16, 2010)

So...what do you recommend to tortoise keepers who want to raise torts with smooth shells?


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## snake_girl85 (Mar 16, 2010)

> It's amazing to me how the same opinions based on fallacies are reiterated from one forum to another. Despite what you think this has a tremendous effect on how tortoises are raised. Already on this forum this happening http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-13143.html.



I feel that since it is my post you are referring to, I should explain myself.

I did not go out and buy a tortoise, only to see one guy on a forum say that humidity causes pyramiding, and take it as gospel. I have seen many arguments regarding the cause, and am perfectly able to form my own opinions.

I am inclined to believe that humidity plays at least some part in pyramiding, but I am not 100% sure. My method for preventing pyramiding is to try to keep all my bases covered. Not only am I attempting to keep the humidity up, but I am also trying to provide my tortoise with proper lighting, diet, temperature etcÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ In fact, I have determined that the diet I have been providing is too nutritious (dandelion, collard/turnip greens etc, grasses), and am adding more spring mix to the rotation, so as to simulate the lower nutrient content of a natural diet. Are the beginning signs of pyramiding due to low humidity or inappropriate diet? I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t know, but I am trying to correct both.

Likewise, I am not so selfish and vain as to tailor the environment to create a pretty, perfectly smooth shell. My main concern for humidity is because I am dealing with a very young tortoise, and do not want him to become dehydrated. Regardless of the effects on the shell, there can be no doubt that hatchling tortoises are prone to dehydration due to their small size, and that even in the desert they have access to higher humidity in burrows and other hiding places. Of course I want a natural looking shell, but my concern is the survival of my fragile young tortoise.

As for the other responses on the thread you referenced, I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t believe that they were definitely saying that low humidity is the only factor in pyramiding. I think that everyone is merely trying to keep all bases covered. If it were a long held opinion that humidity was the only cause of pyramiding, and out of the blue someone had evidence that it was due to excessive dietary protein, you would see the same thing happen. ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s not because these people take that view as absolute truth, it is more like Ã¢â‚¬Å“Hey, I know you are trying everything else, but you havenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t been feeding your tortoise cat food, have you?Ã¢â‚¬Â

I think that the best way to avoid pyramiding, REGARDLESS of the cause, is to provide a habitat and diet as close to nature as possible. DonÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t condemn concerns over humidity when it is an obvious and often overlooked factor in the health of tortoises.

Not to nitpick, and I have only skimmed the study so far, but...



> Did you or the scientific community examine the research?



I'd venture to say whoever published it in the Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition at least read the thing...



> Did you look at the ...the P values?...



It's been a few years since my AP stats class, but I think I remember a P value of less than 0.001 being pretty darn good.

As for the methods and analysis, I haven't read that far yet.


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## zeec (Mar 16, 2010)

Stephanie Logan said:


> So...what do you recommend to tortoise keepers who want to raise torts with smooth shells?



I'm sorry, I didn't have time to answer your question earlier. I raise my animals on a rich diet of weeds, grape leaves and store bought lettuces. I don't worry about the humidity. Its usually whatever ambient humidity is in my house which is usaually around 30-40% but varies depending on the seasons. I supplement regularly with plenty of calcium and vit D. If i notice that there may be early signs of pyramids i decrease the food intake and and increase the calcium/d3 intake, Not because i think overfeeding is bad but because i want to minimize phosphorus and maximize calcium absorbtion. The only time I ever change humidity is when an animal is sick (which is rare) If i have the tort at 30 c i alywas keep the humidity as high as i can in his inclosure because high humidity decreases the work of breathing. The lungs don't have to first humidify the air. this helps when an animal has a respiratory infection. I also keep a water dish with the animal to climb into it so that they don't become dehydrated, Because i know that dehydration and humidity are differnt.

Snake_girl85: My post was not directed at you in any way. I just thought it was funny when someone said that your animal is pyramiding and ammediatley asked about the humidity. Your leopard looks great by the way. As far as P values is dependant on the power of the study among many other things. You can power any study to get P values to suite your needs


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## Tom (Mar 16, 2010)

"I raise T. Kleinmanni. I have a huge breeding goup and have years of experience. I've raised hatchlings on 100% pure bone dry sand with no pyramiding what so ever."

One species? Really? And you are trying to win an argument with people who have raised many species for decades?

Tell us, what part of the country do you live in? What is the humidity like?

Raise a smooth Sulcata or Leopard using your methods and then I will hang on your every word. For that matter, I'd like to hear from anyone whose raised a smooth Sulcata or Leopard.

I do not have the answer to pyramiding, yet. But I think I've seen enough to make an educated guess. I'm in the process of using actual live animals in my own informal experiments to try to answer this question.

You are free to disregard whatever helpful info you want.


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## chadk (Mar 16, 2010)

Sounds like an extreme case - does best with very low humidity...

http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/tkleinmannicare.htm

"HOUSING: Egyptian tortoises MUST be housed in a dry, warm environment with low ambient humidity. This must be taken into consideration when arranging housing for them. Upon exposure to a humid environment, even if warm, many of these tortoises fare very poorly and rapidly decline. This is a species that has evolved a very strict niche over the years and one that does not fare well outside that niche. While most species of tortoises respond well and do much better with outdoor maintenance, this species tends to do best in indoor accommodations unless they are being maintained in a low humidity, high temperature climate. Egyptian tortoises tend to bury themselves in the topsoil or under the base of clumps of grass, regardless of being maintained indoors or out. Opportunities to practice this natural behavior should be provided for. "


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## Scooter (Mar 16, 2010)

Is pyramiding more likely in some species and not others? I have seen few T. Kleinmanni with pyramiding but most leopards and sulcatas I see have at least some pyramiding. Does this mean they are less susceptible to pyramiding?


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 16, 2010)

Tom... I am in Oregon not Washington. For the last 4 years of Bob's life he has lived in Oregon. Right now the temperature here is 54 degrees with 57% humidity. In Senegal which is the median Sulcata range the temperature is 73 degrees with 80% humidity.
I have head-started numerous Gopherus agassizii, raising them from new fresh out of the egg to 12 to 15 months and not one had a bumpy carapace where he was adopted. Then I had Tony Stewart(sulcata) from 24 hours out of the egg to almost 4 years old and he was very slightly pyramided. I had Cali she was 4 years old when she died with a smooth carapace.
I feel my street cred is being questioned here.
I am not an expert, I have not been keeping chelonia for decades like the rest of you. But I know what I have seen and I know what I know and that is the *big four* will keep your tortoise from becoming pyramided. How? I don't know and frankly I don't care. I do believe however, that if you miss hit on one of those 4 things you get a Sulcata with a pyramided carapace. 
As for the carapace smoothing out as the animal grows, yep I see that happen and the only thing I have for that is my personal opinion that it is slow growth that does that. If Yvonne would post a picture of her Dudley he has tiny points on his carapace, not square tall pyramids.


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## zeec (Mar 16, 2010)

Scooter said:


> Is pyramiding more likely in some species and not others? I have seen few T. Kleinmanni with pyramiding but most leopards and sulcatas I see have at least some pyramiding. Does this mean they are less susceptible to pyramiding?



You actually see pyramiding just as much in t kleinmanni. It's just that there's probably 20 or 30 sulcata's for every Kleinmanni that you see, so it seems like its more prevalent. So I wonder what causes pyramiding in Egyptians...maybe its high humidity since they are used to a dry environment? 
Roachman : This is getting nowwhere. I've raised other species before, I'm just focused on T. Kleinmanni because that's my passion. I've raised them in different parts of the country from So Cal to NY. 
Let me ask you this, Why do you think pyramiding happens in the wild as well especially with leopards. You can have differnt degrees of pyramiding from one leopard to another living in the same range, Isn't humidity there the same?
"One species? Really? And you are trying to win an argument with people who have raised many species for decades?

I'm not trying to win any any arguments, you can say whatever you want now since we are way off topic now.

"Raise a smooth Sulcata or Leopard using your methods and then I will hang on your every word"

Again, Raising a smooth sulcata is not the ultimate proof that someone's way of doing things equalls smooth shells . Its even been said on this thread that there have been torts that have been fed horrible diets or dog food since hatching and still have perfect shells. Does that mean their way is correct? This applies to all species not just sulcata's, Their physiology is the same.


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## Stephanie Logan (Mar 16, 2010)

So do you use separate products for calcium and D3 supplementation, or do you use calcium powder that also has D3 in it?

Do you recommend a particular brand?

How much calcium/D3 do you use? Is it measurable or do you just "dust" it on?

Just to clarify, you believe all tortoise species are equally susceptible to pyramiding unless they are given calcium and D3 supplements.

Conversely, you believe that no tortoise will experience pyramiding as long as they are given adequate amounts of calcium and D3 supplements. Yes?


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## zeec (Mar 16, 2010)

Stephanie Logan said:


> So do you use separate products for calcium and D3 supplementation, or do you use calcium powder that also has D3 in it?
> 
> Do you recommend a particular brand?
> 
> How much calcium/D3 do you use? Is it measurable or do you just "dust" it on?



At one point in time I used to buy Tubs of pure calcium. I would make my own vit D powder by crushing 400U Vit D tablets. I would calculate the amount I have and mix with the calcium as I thought i needed depending on the diet, activity, and season. I have since stopped doing that because it was more time consuming and I felt that I was probably overshooting my target vit D which may become problematic. Now I just use Good Ole Reptical. It has a good safe amount of Vit D plus other trace minerals that are important as well. 


Stephanie Logan said:


> "Just to clarify, you believe all tortoise species are equally susceptible to pyramiding unless they are given calcium and D3 supplements.Just to clarify, you believe all tortoise species are equally susceptible to pyramiding unless they are given calcium and D3 supplements."


I believe they will develop pyramiding if they are calcium and/or Vit D3 deficient. If they can get enough from diet and natural light then they don't need any supplements. If they are getting suplemented, that will not guarantee that they will not pyramid, since differnt people will give differnt amounts, The torts may avoid eating any calcium at all since its less palatable. So its no guarantee that if you give supplements you won't get pyramiding but for the most part you will get less pyramiding 

This is they way I have done things. I never preach it, or try to tell anyone what to do with his/her animals unless they ask, thats why i stay off the forums. The last thing I would say is " my animals are healthy/healthier so I must be right and you must be wrong"


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## DonaTello's-Mom (Mar 16, 2010)

Hi Zeec,
I have a question for you, actually two. If you had a Sulcata hatchling, how would you house it to prevent pyramiding? Temps, substrate etc. Now number two. If you just got an older Sulcata, slightly pyramided, what adjustments would you make if any? I'm just curious on other members methods of husbandry.


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## Tom (Mar 17, 2010)

Zeec, I mean you no disrespect, but we've been talking about apples and oranges here. I don't know Kleinmans tortoises at all, but a quick google search turned up a bunch of pics and none of them were pyramided. Do a google search for sulcatas or leopards. The only non-pyramided pics you will see are of wild ones.

To address something you brought up, I saw several hundred leopards in the wild, semi-wild and captivity while I was in in South Africa working for four months. Both sub-species. Not a single one was pyramided at all. So different looking were they, that I didn't even recognize the species at first. So, no I don't think they pyramid in the wild. Maybe there has been one somewhere, sometime, but that is most definitely a rare phenom, if it happens.

I noticed a definite change in the tone of your posts when I (incorrectly) called you on a lack of experience with other torts. You went from combative and argumentative to cooperative and helpful. Do you live in a humid climate now? Have you raised Leopards or Sulcatas from hatchlings and experienced the terrible frustration of failure even though you did everything "right"? I have, and that's why I feel so strongly about this and have been coming at you the way I have. I detect from your new tone that you know what I'm talking about.

I will have the evidence to back up my claims in the next 2 or 3 years, but right now, you are correct, I can't do it. I have, however seen what I've seen out in the world and there is too much anecdotal evidence to be ignored. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck, etc... 

I wish you well with your herd and thank you for making me challenge and really think through what I've observed.


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## zeec (Mar 17, 2010)

Roachman26 said:


> Zeec, I mean you no disrespect, but we've been talking about apples and oranges here. I don't know Kleinmans tortoises at all, but a quick google search turned up a bunch of pics and none of them were pyramided. Do a google search for sulcatas or leopards. The only non-pyramided pics you will see are of wild ones.
> 
> To address something you brought up, I saw several hundred leopards in the wild, semi-wild and captivity while I was in in South Africa working for four months. Both sub-species. Not a single one was pyramided at all. So different looking were they, that I didn't even recognize the species at first. So, no I don't think they pyramid in the wild. Maybe there has been one somewhere, sometime, but that is most definitely a rare phenom, if it happens.
> 
> ...



My tone is never combative, or at least I never meant it to be but fair enough. I think we've discussed this topic ad nauseam. Let's move on...


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## -EJ (Mar 23, 2010)

While I've only skimmed through this thread... I could not see one mention of temperature. As long as the thread is I would suspect that it was mentioned.

Heat and hydration (internal and external) are the primary and secondary components in good shell growth... nutrition comes in third.


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## Tom (Mar 23, 2010)

-EJ said:


> While I've only skimmed through this thread... I could not see one mention of temperature. As long as the thread is I would suspect that it was mentioned.
> 
> Heat and hydration (internal and external) are the primary and secondary components in good shell growth... nutrition comes in third.



Well thanks for finally joining us! Do mean they need more heat or not too much or just the right amount? Are you saying that too cool temps can contribute to pyramiding? Or too hot?


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## -EJ (Mar 23, 2010)

I believe that the lack of heat is a primary cause of pyramiding. Again... tortoises are reptiles and require proper temperature for proper metabolism. The hydration is the next step. These 2 points are the basic components for everything else to occur.



Tom said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> > While I've only skimmed through this thread... I could not see one mention of temperature. As long as the thread is I would suspect that it was mentioned.
> ...


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## Tom (Mar 23, 2010)

Thanks Ed. In the past I kept mine a little warmer than most. 75-80 at night and basking SPOTS up to 120 during the day. Do you think this is too hot and possibly contributes to the drying effect? They had places as cool as 75-80 to get away from the basking spots in very large enclosures. They also got regular soaks and I sprayed the food with a little water before they ate it.

Oh, I'm mostly talking about young sulcatas, by the way.


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## -EJ (Mar 23, 2010)

That's perfect.



Tom said:


> Thanks Ed. In the past I kept mine a little warmer than most. 75-80 at night and basking SPOTS up to 120 during the day. Do you think this is too hot and possibly contributes to the drying effect? They had places as cool as 75-80 to get away from the basking spots in very large enclosures. They also got regular soaks and I sprayed the food with a little water before they ate it.
> 
> Oh, I'm mostly talking about young sulcatas, by the way.


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## Rhyno47 (Mar 23, 2010)

When I got Isaac he was pyramiding badly. But since then I have gone crazy making his home perfect for him. His pyramiding practically stopped, spare the very very gradual amount of vertical growth. His shell now has little plateaus showcasing his old pyramiding when he was very young. 

Isaac at 3 months when I got him.











Isaac at 10 months, very recently, after alterations.





Notice the plateaus I mentioned.


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## -EJ (Mar 23, 2010)

How exactly are you keeping him?



Rhyno47 said:


> When I got Isaac he was pyramiding badly. But since then I have gone crazy making his home perfect for him. His pyramiding practically stopped, spare the very very gradual amount of vertical growth. His shell now has little plateaus showcasing his old pyramiding when he was very young.


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## Rhyno47 (Mar 23, 2010)

He is in a stainless steel stock tank with about 4 inches of coconut sand mix kept damp all the way through. He has a hide box with a bedding of sphagnum moss about an inch or two thick kept damp as well. Humidity in the hide = 90, in the tank = 70, and in the sunlamp area = 50.


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## -EJ (Mar 23, 2010)

Very nice setup.



Rhyno47 said:


> He is in a stainless steel stock tank with about 4 inches of coconut sand mix kept damp all the way through. He has a hide box with a bedding of sphagnum moss about an inch or two thick kept damp as well. Humidity in the hide = 90, in the tank = 70, and in the sunlamp area = 50.


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## Stephanie Logan (Mar 23, 2010)

Shell looks great!

How are his turd lengths? No new records?


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## Yvonne G (Mar 23, 2010)

Stephanie Logan said:


> Shell looks great!
> 
> How are his turd lengths? No new records?



Humph! Rather personal, don't you think?


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## Rhyno47 (Mar 23, 2010)

Rather small recently lol.


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## -EJ (Mar 23, 2010)

do you spray the substrate? What kind of sand did you use?



Rhyno47 said:


> Rather small recently lol.


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## Rhyno47 (Mar 23, 2010)

I dont spray, Im going to start a new thread called How I Keep Humidity Up look it up by the name or my profile it will show the steps I go through. They are pretty reliable.


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## -EJ (Mar 23, 2010)

Not very helpful.



Rhyno47 said:


> I dont spray, Im going to start a new thread called How I Keep Humidity Up look it up by the name or my profile it will show the steps I go through. They are pretty reliable.


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## Rhyno47 (Mar 23, 2010)

Sorry i had to make the thread first.
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-13370.html

Aslo I use playsand.


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## Stephanie Logan (Mar 23, 2010)

Sorry, you are right Yvonne.

I have fallen into the iniquitous habit of seeking out salacious gossip to treat as Truth...I do think there should be an Olympic competition for torts like Isaac, though. Maybe I should request such a competition here on TFO...

Sorry to have gone so far off topic on this pyramiding thread. 

I'm still an Isaac groupie, though.


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