# Cuttle bone vs urates?



## Moozillion (Mar 24, 2016)

Hi, Guys and Gals,
Although I THINK I know the answer to this question, I'm going to post it up here anyway, because I don't want to take chances.

My 6 year old Hermann's tort, Elsa, FINALLY started chewing on her cuttlebone after 3 years of ignoring it, walking on it, peeing on it etc. In fact she ate it down so well, that I've given her a second one. 

I've had her in her indoor enclosure for the winter, and she appears to have been peeing and pooping well. Yesterday I found a pile of gritty, sandy urates on her feeding slate. She had had a well-formed (but not hard) poop a couple days before. My husband asked me if the grit could be from the cuttlebone and NOT urates, but I told him I didn't think so. 

What are your thoughts: urates or cuttlebone passing through instead of being absorbed???
(I think it's urates, and am hydrating her enclosure more and she will be getting a soak today for sure. Also fed her some cucumber, may add aloe vera).


----------



## Moozillion (Mar 24, 2016)

Further thoughts:
Since the cuttlebone is SO dry and chalky, I wonder if it is a little dehydrating as it goes through their system? Maybe she's forming urates more easily, and just needs more hydration to counteract the water her system uses to hydrate and soften the cuttlebone?
Seem plausible?


----------



## Sandy Martinez (Mar 24, 2016)

Moozillion said:


> Hi, Guys and Gals,
> Although I THINK I know the answer to this question, I'm going to post it up here anyway, because I don't want to take chances.
> 
> My 6 year old Hermann's tort, Elsa, FINALLY started chewing on her cuttlebone after 3 years of ignoring it, walking on it, peeing on it etc. In fact she ate it down so well, that I've given her a second one.
> ...


Gives me some hope after reading the cuttlebone was ignored for years -- my hermann and russian, neither touch the cuttlebone thus far. I've had both less than a year.


----------



## wellington (Mar 24, 2016)

This is interesting. My first guess would be its Urates from eating too much of the cuttle. However, everything else you said makes sense too. 
Let's see what @Yvonne G @Tom @tortadise @Will has to say. 
I think though if it were me, I not only would hydrate her more, but I think I would limit the cuttle and maybe add a small amount of a food that gives a fair amount of calcium where she may not need the cuttle so much. I feed a small amount of spinach 1-2 times a month and I don't use cuttle or any other type of calcium. I was just waisting my money as they never touch the cuttle or eat the food with calcium on it, no matter how small the amount or how I disguised it.


----------



## Tom (Mar 24, 2016)

I don't think cuttle bone will cause urates. Urates are usually seen when there is a lack of water or when they are in a state closer to being dehydrated. If they don't need the calcium, it simply passes through. I have frequently seen pieces of cuttlebone, among other things, that have been eaten and pass on through. Bits of gravel, dirt, pieces of orchid bark, undigested grass from a russian, opuntia slime, etc…

How often have you been soaking over winter?

It is very possible that what you are seeing is a pile of crumbled cuttlebone that passed through the GI tract.


----------



## Moozillion (Mar 24, 2016)

Tom said:


> I don't think cuttle bone will cause urates. Urates are usually seen when there is a lack of water or when they are in a state closer to being dehydrated. If they don't need the calcium, it simply passes through. I have frequently seen pieces of cuttlebone, among other things, that have been eaten and pass on through. Bits of gravel, dirt, pieces of orchid bark, undigested grass from a russian, opuntia slime, etc…
> 
> How often have you been soaking over winter?
> 
> It is very possible that what you are seeing is a pile of crumbled cuttlebone that passed through the GI tract.


I seldom soak her because it distresses her so. I use an opaque plastic tote, so she can't see out; it does not matter what temperature the water is or how deep: she constantly tries to scramble up the sides to get out. I hate to stress her out so badly, but if she needs it, she'll get it.

I have never seen her actually drink water, either in her soak or the water dishes in either her indoor or outdoor enclosures. 

The humidity in her indoor enclosure had dropped into the 45% range- I usually try and keep her OVER 50% indoor humidity (the outdoor humidity takes care of itself!)


----------



## Yvonne G (Mar 24, 2016)

She'll get used to it and calm down when she realizes she's not in any danger.


----------



## Tom (Mar 24, 2016)

Moozillion said:


> I seldom soak her because it distresses her so. I use an opaque plastic tote, so she can't see out; it does not matter what temperature the water is or how deep: she constantly tries to scramble up the sides to get out. I hate to stress her out so badly, but if she needs it, she'll get it.
> 
> I have never seen her actually drink water, either in her soak or the water dishes in either her indoor or outdoor enclosures.
> 
> The humidity in her indoor enclosure had dropped into the 45% range- I usually try and keep her OVER 50% indoor humidity (the outdoor humidity takes care of itself!)



Hmm… In that case dehydration… let me rephrase… In that case, a state of lesser hydration seems much more likely, and you might be seeing gritty urates.

To expand upon what Yvonne just said, I have gotten in WC russian adults and when I drop them into their first soak, they act like it is acid and their skin is being painfully dissolved by the water. I just walk away. I soak new and potentially dehydrated tortoises daily for a while as I believe it to be very good for their health. In every single case of water aversion like this, I persist, and in every single case they desensitize, and after a couple of weeks they just sit there calmly and demonstrate what seems to be tortoise contentment. Daisy, my big sulcata girl, was one of these cases. It took months of daily soaks for her to fully calm down, but calm down she did, and the hydration likely saved her life and got her over that hump of dehydration induced internal organ damage. Now she's over 50 pounds at 7-8 years old. She just laid eggs for me last month.

Think of her scrambling like a daily tortoise workout. Sort of like an exercise bike, but without the bike.  It won't hurt her, and it will likely do her a lot of good. Studies have shown that some occasional stress in a captive wild animals life is a good thing. Too much stress, all the time, causes major problems, but occasional stress stimulates their adrenal system, brain and muscles, and to some degree simulates what would happen in the wild. I would imagine living in the wild would have the tortoise meeting all sorts of different stressors on a regular basis.


----------



## Moozillion (Mar 24, 2016)

Tom said:


> Hmm… In that case dehydration… let me rephrase… In that case a state of lesser hydration, seems much more likely, and you might be seeing gritty urates.
> 
> To expand upon what Yvonne just said, I have gotten in WC russian adults and when I drop them into their first soak, they act like it is acid and their skin is being painfully dissolved by the water. I just walk away. I soak new and potentially dehydrated tortoises daily for a while as I believe it to be very good for their health. In every single case of water aversion like this, I persist, and in every single case they desensitize, and after a couple of weeks they just sit there calmly and demonstrate what seems to be tortoise contentment. Daisy, my big sulcata girl, was one of these cases. It took months of daily soaks for her to fully calm down, but calm down she did, and the hydration likely saved her life and got her over that hump of dehydration induced internal organ damage. Now she's over 50 pounds at 7-8 years old. She just laid eggs for me last month.
> 
> Think of her scrambling like a daily tortoise workout. Sort of like an exercise bike, but without the bike.  It won't hurt her, and it will likely do her a lot of good. Studies have shown that some occasional stress in a captive wild animals life is a good thing. Too much stress, all the time causes major problems, but occasional stress stimulates their adrenal system, brain and muscles, and to some degree simulates what would happen in the wild. I would imagine living in the wild would have the tortoise meeting all sorts of different stressors on a regular basis.



Thanks so much, Tom. 
It really helps to hear other, more experienced viewpoints!

She will start her daily soaks today!!!


----------



## Tom (Mar 24, 2016)

Some people report success with different times of day and/or different water temperatures. I see no reason not to attempt these things, but for me, I just plop them in their tub of warm water when its convenient in my irregular busy schedule, and _all_ of them of _all_ species do just fine. I realize that I might not be as emotionally sensitive to my tortoises needs as some, but I wish to report that none of my tortoises ever suffer from stones, gritty urates, or any other dehydration related maladies, despite my callous insensitivity to their feelings. {We need a smiley face depicting tongue in cheek here…}


----------



## MPRC (Mar 24, 2016)

I may sound crazy, but putting a piece of non-slip rubber stuff on the bottom of my sink made my one redfoot who doesn't like soaks a little more calm. I also put a warm wet rag over her shell because she was dried out like a little raisin and she either panicked and froze or liked being covered and calmed down. I'm not sure which, but she acts completely normal after a soak...and it never fails she poops immediately afterward and never in her water like I want her to.


----------



## Tom (Mar 24, 2016)

LaDukePhoto said:


> ...and it never fails she poops immediately afterward and never in her water like I want her to.



I HATE it when they do that!!!


----------



## Moozillion (Mar 24, 2016)

Well, THAT went much better than I had anticipated! 

I was about to put Elsa in her tote for her soak, when it occurred to me that the tote I had used before was now barely twice as long as she is, which doesn't really leave much room for walking. I rinsed out a 55 gal Rubbermaid tote, put a towel in the bottom and dumped in some 80* water. When i first put her in, she immediately started MARCHING hastily for the end of the tote. Once she got there, she scrabbled a little, then turned around and marched back to the other end. She kept this up for about a half hour. I kept track of the water temp with my temp gun and added a little more warm water at one point. I tried to tell her to look at it as "A Day at the Spa," and offered her manicure, pedicure and a facial, but all I got was a dirty look. 

As she kept walking, she gradually got slower and slower, until she was plodding along at her usual walking speed. A couple of times, she stopped at the end and looked around for a few minutes, as if to say, "Well, DARN- this isn't working out..." but never any frantic scrambling at the sides! 

She gave me a big soft poop and then passed some urates: it was mostly soft and stringy, but I could feel some hard little chips inside it. 
I think I will take out her cuttle bone, and we will go back to scraping a shower of dust off the cuttle bone onto her wet greens when we feed her.

AND I feel MUCH BETTER about soaking her now, and will do so daily!!!!! 
THAnks to ALL for your input!!!


----------



## Tom (Mar 24, 2016)

Moozillion said:


> AND I feel MUCH BETTER about soaking her now, and will do so daily!!!!!
> THAnks to ALL for your input!!!



Everyone has a little different strategy, but for a 6 year old hermanni, I would soak daily or every other for a couple of weeks to make sure she's well hydrated and then cut it down to two or three times a weeks for the long term. Especially in your humid climate. Daily soaks forever won't hurt anything, but probably not necessary.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Mar 24, 2016)

wellington said:


> This is interesting. My first guess would be its Urates from eating too much of the cuttle. However, everything else you said makes sense too.
> Let's see what @Yvonne G @Tom @tortadise @Will has to say.
> I think though if it were me, I not only would hydrate her more, but I think I would limit the cuttle and maybe add a small amount of a food that gives a fair amount of calcium where she may not need the cuttle so much. I feed a small amount of spinach 1-2 times a month and I don't use cuttle or any other type of calcium. I was just waisting my money as they never touch the cuttle or eat the food with calcium on it, no matter how small the amount or how I disguised it.




So cuttle is calcium and other minerals, not protein. Urates, urea etc are all waste products from protein digestion when there is (often) insufficient water/hydration to support the elimination of the protein waste.

Every 'stone' or accumulation of white gritty stuff that I have smelled (not the most scientific evaluation procedure) has always been protein waste, never once based on an over accumulation of calcium. At least two incredibly well regarded vets have assured me there is no such thing as a calcium stone in tortoises (as opposed to turtles).

So more water or less protein. I would go with the more water. 

Also I am not making a first hand observation, Yeah? So what I'm saying is based on what you are saying, and that can result in my own incorrect interpretation.


----------



## DPtortiose (Mar 25, 2016)

Ok, the give some clarification about the workings of poo and pee. 

Poo is made up from the 'leftovers' in the intestines. Meaning that everything that the body didn't absorb or couldn't break down is in the poop. If you're worried that the cuttlebone isn't digested, you'd find pieces of cuttlebone in here.

You wouldn't however found them in the urate (or pee/the white stuff). You'll only find excess nutrients in the urates. Every nutrient that your body has digested and absorbed and had too much of, is excreted through pee. A large portion ‘pee ’is made from urid acid, (the white stuff) this serves as a way to dump excess nitrogen taken up from protein for example. But it also contains a number of other elements. Basically everything your body has too much of. So it's impossible to find 'chips' of undigested cuttlebone in the urate. Only digested material is expelled through the urate. The way calcium is absorbed also makes it very unlikely that there is an excess of calcium that needs to be excreted.

Like stated above, the 'gritty' feel of the urate is caused by a lack of water in the excrements.


----------



## Markw84 (Mar 25, 2016)

The problem is that with tortoises pee and poop are excreted together and all through the cloaca. You don't know what came through the urinary vs intestinal tract

When I feed my tortoises extra cuttle bone ground up with their food I will often see what I am sure is excess cuttle bone chips excreted And I see completely normal unrates before and after. I never see it other times. Only egg laying season when I push extra eggshell and/ or cuttlebone with the food


----------



## Moozillion (Mar 25, 2016)

Thanks bunches for all the kind replies!!!! VERY helpful!!! 
I feel certain she got a little dehydrated and am soaking her daily until I see nice watery urates.
I'm also keeping a closer eye on the humidity of her winter substrate and enclosure. 

You guys ROCK!!!


----------



## Tom (Mar 25, 2016)

DPtortiose said:


> Ok, the give some clarification about the workings of poo and pee.
> 
> Poo is made up from the 'leftovers' in the intestines. Meaning that everything that the body didn't absorb or couldn't break down is in the poop. If you're worried that the cuttlebone isn't digested, you'd find pieces of cuttlebone in here.
> 
> ...



This was a helpful and informative response. Good info.

My response sort of mirrors Marks: When looking at a pile of "stuff" that just came out of their tortoise, how does a noob know if they are looking at a pile of poop and urates, or a pile of poop and some undigested cuttlebone? It all comes from the same hole at the same time. Those of us with lots of tortoises and years of experience with tortoise poop and urates, can probably tell the difference, but for a new person?

In any case, I liked your post.


----------



## DPtortiose (Mar 25, 2016)

Tom said:


> My response sort of mirrors Marks: When looking at a pile of "stuff" that just came out of their tortoise, how does a noob know if they are looking at a pile of poop and urates, or a pile of poop and some undigested cuttlebone? It all comes from the same hole at the same time. Those of us with lots of tortoises and years of experience with tortoise poop and urates, can probably tell the difference, but for a new person?



Very true, this might provide a of better understanding how the two look different:






(Picture used from this site:http://www.guthriepet.net/blog/reptile-care/)

Mind you, I'm not saying poop and pee should look like this (it's highly depended on the species, diet and hydration), But it might give someone new a feel how the two look.


----------



## Tom (Mar 25, 2016)

That's a good visual. Now can you show us a pic of undigested cuttlebone fragments that have made it through a smaller tortoise species? You know those times when a Testudo species ignores a cuttlebone for months and then eats the whole thing in one day? What does _that_ look like on the other end?


----------



## Gillian M (Mar 25, 2016)

Moozillion said:


> I seldom soak her because it distresses her so. I use an opaque plastic tote, so she can't see out; it does not matter what temperature the water is or how deep: she constantly tries to scramble up the sides to get out. I hate to stress her out so badly, but if she needs it, she'll get it.
> 
> I have never seen her actually drink water, either in her soak or the water dishes in either her indoor or outdoor enclosures.
> 
> The humidity in her indoor enclosure had dropped into the 45% range- I usually try and keep her OVER 50% indoor humidity (the outdoor humidity takes care of itself!)


I soak OLI  each and every day no matter how cold/hot it is.


----------



## DPtortiose (Mar 25, 2016)

Tom said:


> That's a good visual. Now can you show us a pic of undigested cuttlebone fragments that have made it through a smaller tortoise species? You know those times when a Testudo species ignores a cuttlebone for months and then eats the whole thing in one day? What does _that_ look like on the other end?



Never seen anything like it in my animals. I'm not sure if it's even possible for cuttlefish chips to remain 'undigested'. I think it’s very likely that not all the calcium from the bones are absorbed by the body, but I doubt the remaining calcium with be visible as chips. Cuttlefish bones are basically entirely made from calcium carbonate, a molecule that is soluble when mixed with (strong) acids (in a low ph). Like the low PH found in the stomach acids. So it I think it simply 'melts away' when it hits the stomach, but I'm not sure. The only thing that I can say for sure is that I’ve never seen something like that in my animals.


----------

