# TWINS!



## Tom (Jun 30, 2017)

I've hatched a lot of sulcatas over the years, and a few other species too, but I've never seen this before. Goldy laid a large clutch of 35 eggs onMarch 6th of this year. I left the eggs in the ground and dug them up on March 21st. I let them sit at room temp (About 72-75F.) for a week and put them in the incubator on March 29th. Incubator is a large stand up freezer that has been gutted and I run it with two 78 watt radiant heat panels set on a Helix digital proportional thermostat set at 87 degrees. One panel on the ceiling and one on the floor. I have two low speed computer fans that circulate the air in there. The eggs are in shoe boxes that sit on shelves and there are three open tubs of water to help with humidity which stays around 80-90% depending on how much I open the door. I'll add a pic of the incubator later on.

So a couple of days ago, all of these eggs began hatching and one of Daisy's clutches are hatching too. So this makes 4 shoe boxes full of new babies all hatching at the same time. So this morning, I'm going through all the boxes of new hatchlings and removing all the ones that are out of their shells for a fins and a soak before being moved into their brooder boxes. I get most of them out and I see this guy. Looks like he's got something going on with his yolk sac…



What the heck is going on there…



Let's open up the egg and see… WHAT THE…..???!!!???!?!!?!?!?!!!!!




Let's rinse them off and have a better look:






Here they are in their brooder box:



Both babies are alive, active and alert. They are sharing about 10-15% of their yolk sac. My babies usually absorb their yolk sac within 24 hours of going into the brooder box, so I'm curious how this will play out. The one baby is right around normal size and all scutes are normal. His little Danny DeVito twin is about half of normal size and has some aberrant scutes. HA! I'm going to name them Arnold and Danny!!! 

I will post updates over the next few days so we can all see what develops.


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## Tom (Jun 30, 2017)

I don't want to make a second thread, but check this guy out from the same clutch:





The picture doesn't show it, but this one was trying to grow its own twin too. That stuff at the end of the yolk sac is some leg scales that were forming in the egg. I've got this guy separate too, and we will see what happens.

I've never seen anything like this before in any of my babies, and now I get two in the same clutch? Weird.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jun 30, 2017)

Indeed.


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## Jennifer M (Jun 30, 2017)

Wow! Very interesting!


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## Peliroja32 (Jun 30, 2017)

Very interesting!


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## daniellenc (Jun 30, 2017)

They are so cute!! Any research on twins? I mean it's normal in humans for one to be smaller sometimes if nutrients weren't shared equally for some reason but they usually grow to be normal sized adults nonetheless.


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## Turtulas-Len (Jun 30, 2017)

Neat, Congratulations, I hope they all make it.


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## Tom (Jun 30, 2017)

Turtulas-Len said:


> Neat, Congratulations, I hope they all make it.



I'm hoping for the best, but expecting the worse.


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## AmberD (Jun 30, 2017)

Congrats! Will certainly be interesting to see what happens!


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## tortdad (Jun 30, 2017)

Sweet names, lol


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## wellington (Jun 30, 2017)

Does it look like they will actually separate on their own once the sack is absorbed? 
Pretty interesting. Wonder why the one egg had to fully develop but the other one didn't. Hmmm, can't wait for undated. Do hope they all do well.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 1, 2017)

Danny's GF, Stells, put up a thread about separating twins wa-a-a-a-ay long time ago. She tied off the yolk with fishing line. Good luck with Danny and Arnold!

About the other one with leg scales growing on the yolk - I took in a rescue quite a few years ago that had been chewed by a dog long time ago, all healed and new skin and shell growing already, however, the new skin, instead of being smooth skin as it should, was growing leg scales. He looked very weird - a sulcata with leg scales on his neck.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jul 1, 2017)

Because they may have come from the same split cell, would they be identical twins?


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## zovick (Jul 1, 2017)

Tom,

I have hatched a couple sets of twin tortoises in my day and can offer the following tips:

You will probably need to take a scalpel (or X-Acto knife) to cut through the least vascular area of the yolk sac that is connecting the twins. If you have a hemostat, you can clamp it on the fleshiest and thinnest section of the connection between the tortoises (where the least blood vessels are), and leave it for a couple hours while the vessels contract. Then take the scalpel and very gently cut along each side of the hemostat to separate the tortoises.

In the absence of a hemostat and scalpel, you can also do this by tying off the connection with dental floss, waiting a couple hours, and then cutting through the connection with small sharp scissors.

The trick is doing it at just the right time. IE, when it appears that there is no actual vascular connection, but just fleshy looking tissue.

Good luck.

Bill Z


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## wellington (Jul 1, 2017)

zovick said:


> Tom,
> 
> I have hatched a couple sets of twin tortoises in my day and can offer the following tips:
> 
> ...


So, if they are just left alone until the yolk sack is all obsorbed and dried up, they won't just naturally separate?


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## zovick (Jul 1, 2017)

wellington said:


> So, if they are just left alone until the yolk sack is all obsorbed and dried up, they won't just naturally separate?



I don't know the answer to that because I have never waited that long. The ones I have had were positioned in such a way that one twin was nearly upside down if the other was upright. I was afraid that in the efforts to right itself, the upside down twin would puncture the yolk sack with its nails and both would die from that. Hence I chose to separate them surgically rather than wait to see what transpired.

Another time, I left two twins in the egg for a few hours. When I first noticed them, they were both fine and both heads were protruding out into the air from the egg shell so I left them alone figuring to allow some more time for the yolk sack to resorb a bit. When I went back to check on them later, one twin had managed to get itself fully upright, but in doing so, had submerged the other twin's face into the albumin causing it to drown. These were two Radiated Tortoises, which made the loss rather disappointing.

At any rate, I don't generally wait to see what will happen when strange things occur. I try to be proactive to prevent problems.


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## MichaelaW (Jul 1, 2017)

@HermanniChris succesfully hatched and raised twins.


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## eric joranson (Jul 1, 2017)

This is a totally fascinating post. Please keep us posted Tom.


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## zovick (Jul 2, 2017)

wellington said:


> So, if they are just left alone until the yolk sack is all obsorbed and dried up, they won't just naturally separate?



My feeling has been that as the yolk sac was absorbed, the two shells might become extremely close together or even become joined at the center of the plastron making the tortoises appear to be, or even actually be, attached to each other like Siamese twins, hence I have always attempted to separate them before that could occur.

I guess that if Tom decides to wait it out with his twins rather than trying to separate them early on, he will be able to provide us with the answer to that theory.


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## PJay (Jul 2, 2017)

Thanks for sharing this, look forward to seeing more.


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## Jacqui (Jul 2, 2017)

Good luck


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## Tom (Jul 2, 2017)

zovick said:


> My feeling has been that as the yolk sac was absorbed, the two shells might become extremely close together or even become joined at the center of the plastron making the tortoises appear to be, or even actually be, attached to each other like Siamese twins, hence I have always attempted to separate them before that could occur.
> 
> I guess that if Tom decides to wait it out with his twins rather than trying to separate them early on, he will be able to provide us with the answer to that theory.



I can't tell you how much I appreciate your insight and experience here. Thank you.

I was all set to separate them, but then I read this part from your previous post:


zovick said:


> The trick is doing it at just the right time. IE, when it appears that there is no actual vascular connection, but just fleshy looking tissue.



The whole thing looks highly vascularized, and I'm not sure where to clamp or cut.

My babies usually absorb their yolk sacs in a day or two, and I was hoping this would work itself out.

In the past, any time I've seen any sort of damage or infection in the yolk sac, it results in the death of the baby, so I've been more than a little nervous about messing with it. I will defer to your knowledge and experience here though, if you think I should attempt to separate them.

Here they are today:


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## zovick (Jul 2, 2017)

Hello Tom,

The area still does look fairly vascular. I believe that if you clamp or tie off the red area right in the center to cut off the circulation, the blood vessels will begin to retreat into the abdominal cavities of the respective tortoises and the tissue will begin to dry up. Once that happens, you can cut through the area which then has no blood vessels and separate the babies. If you have a hemostat, clamp right in the center of the vascular area, then wait till tomorrow morning and cut right along the sides of the beak of the hemostat with a scalpel or X-acto knife on either side, leaving the dead tissue in the beak. What you are trying to do in this clamping off process is make sure that there is not a communication of the blood vessels between the two tortoises which could possibly become permanent. It doesn't appear that it will, but I cannot say for certain it would not happen.

It might be that the separation of the two will occur naturally if you do nothing at all, but we don't know that. Certainly you can wait to see if that tissue becomes less vascular looking in another day or two to the point where you dare to cut through it without doing anything to cut off the circulation first.

It's a judgment call for you to make, I would say.


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## HermanniChris (Jul 3, 2017)

Congrats Tom. Very cool. As Michaela said, I did successfully separate and begin raising twins. They'll be 2 this fall. Had I known this video would go viral, I would have done a better job on it, however, it does show how we did it and here it is: 






The twins are alive and well and even though one is considerably smaller, it thrives and continues to grow. 
This is a recent photo:


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## cdmay (Jul 3, 2017)

Tom....here is a thread from a number of years ago. Sorry about the images---Photobucket is jerking everyone's account around now---
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/cherryhead-triplets.32460/

Anyway, they were successful separated by ligation with catgut and then clipping the yolk-sac membrane. All three survived for several months until I (stupidly) used horticultural moss in their enclosure that had been treated with pesticides.


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## Tortoisefanatic88 (Jul 4, 2017)

Just seen this thread now. Very interesting. How are they doing Tom?


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## TammyJ (Jul 4, 2017)

This is fascinating! Good luck!


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## Tweak (Jul 4, 2017)

Very interesting post! How are they doing?


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## BevSmith (Jul 6, 2017)

Oh wow. How cool is this?!?


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## Tom (Jul 6, 2017)

They are now separated, alive and well.


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## PJay (Jul 7, 2017)

Tom said:


> They are now separated, alive and well.
> View attachment 212000
> 
> View attachment 212001


What method did you end up going with to separate them?


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## Tom (Jul 7, 2017)

PJay said:


> What method did you end up going with to separate them?


When the connection reached a thin point, I tied it off with some dental floss in that area. They were separated the next morning. Now, I'm using Vetricin to keep the area from getting infected and I'm cleaning their box twice a day to keep the "germ" load low.

Little Danny is really active and energetic. More than his "normal" counterparts even.


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## Tom (Jul 8, 2017)

Bad news. Arnold didn't make it. Don't know what went wrong. Everything looked okay on the outside.

Little Danny continues to look great and seems like he's doing very well.


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## leigti (Jul 8, 2017)

Tom said:


> Bad news. Arnold didn't make it. Don't know what went wrong. Everything looked okay on the outside.
> 
> Little Danny continues to look great and seems like he's doing very well.


Oh no! I'm sorry about that. Are you going to have a necropsy done just to see what went wrong or what the insides were like? I know it would probably be expensive but it would also be very interesting. I'm glad the little one is doing fine.


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## PJay (Jul 9, 2017)

Aw, that's too bad Tom. Thanks for sharing the experience. Im glad Danny is still looking good.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 9, 2017)

That's too bad. I would have expected the smaller one to not make it.


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## Tom (Jul 9, 2017)

Yvonne G said:


> That's too bad. I would have expected the smaller one to not make it.



Me too. Who knows what was going on the inside.


leigti said:


> Oh no! I'm sorry about that. Are you going to have a necropsy done just to see what went wrong or what the insides were like? I know it would probably be expensive but it would also be very interesting. I'm glad the little one is doing fine.



I'm curious too, but not so curious that I'm going to spend hundreds of dollars.


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## MichaelaW (Jul 9, 2017)

Tom said:


> Me too. Who knows what was going on the inside.
> 
> 
> I'm curious too, but not so curious that I'm going to spend hundreds of dollars.


Texas A & M will do a reptile necropsy for $100 plus shipping if you're interested. https://tvmdl.tamu.edu/tests/necropsy-avianreptilesamphibians/


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## Tom (Jul 9, 2017)

More sad news. Little Danny didn't make it either.

I'm becoming a bit superstitious about yolk sac issues. Any time I've seen any kind of ulceration or lesion on a yolk sac, the baby dies. Maybe its just unlucky coincidence, but I've had a 100% death rate with this issue. This has happened with one sulcata, one leopard and one russian now, in addition to these egg-mates. I realize that four instances does not make a scientific fact, but from where I'm sitting, yolk sac issues are a death sentence.


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## tortdad (Jul 9, 2017)




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## eric joranson (Jul 9, 2017)

so sorry for the conclusion of this story....but thank you for sharing it; its raises so many questions; and reminds us all just how much more we have to learn.


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## Anyfoot (Jul 10, 2017)

Damn, I was enjoying reading this thread until your losses were announced. Sorry for the losses Tom. It's been a very educational thread regardless of the sad outcome.


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## Pearly (Jul 10, 2017)

Anyfoot said:


> Damn, I was enjoying reading this thread until your losses were announced. Sorry for the losses Tom. It's been a very educational thread regardless of the sad outcome.


Ditto! So sorry, Tom! Do you think they had bled out internally? Or ... was there an organ sharing issue?


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## Tom (Jul 10, 2017)

Pearly said:


> Ditto! So sorry, Tom! Do you think they had bled out internally? Or ... was there an organ sharing issue?



I really don't know. Could be any number of possibilities. The rest of that clutch is doing really well and showing exceptional health and vigor. 34 out of the 35 eggs hatched and I think this is a record hatch for me. Most clutches are around 25-26 total, and usually about 20 of those will hatch. 33 live healthy hatchlings from one clutch is a lot for me. These babies were from Goldie who is a 8 or 9 year old 55 pound female. Daisy also had a large clutch that hatched around the same time, and all of her babies are exceptionally large, healthy and vigorous too.


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## Pearly (Jul 10, 2017)

Tom said:


> I really don't know. Could be any number of possibilities. The rest of that clutch is doing really well and showing exceptional health and vigor. 34 out of the 35 eggs hatched and I think this is a record hatch for me. Most clutches are around 25-26 total, and usually about 20 of those will hatch. 33 live healthy hatchlings from one clutch is a lot for me. These babies were from Goldie who is a 8 or 9 year old 55 pound female. Daisy also had a large clutch that hatched around the same time, and all of her babies are exceptionally large, healthy and vigorous too.


Well good for you!!! 30-some eggs from one female???????????!!!!!! How do they fit all those eggs inside of such confined space???!!! That just blows my mind. Incredible! And all hatching out! Wow! Yet...,.... again, I feel very sad about you losing those babies. My sincere sympathy going your way, Tom.


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## Tortoisefanatic88 (Jul 10, 2017)

Sorry to hear that Tom


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## Toons1978 (Aug 4, 2017)

tortdad said:


> Sweet names, lol


Sorry Danny & Arnold didn't make it, what about the other one with a partial twin. If it's still kicken, in sticking with big Arnold movies, might I suggest naming it "Kuato" from the original "Total Recall."


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## Tom (Aug 5, 2017)

Toons1978 said:


> Sorry Danny & Arnold didn't make it, what about the other one with a partial twin. If it's still kicken, in sticking with big Arnold movies, might I suggest naming it "Kuato" from the original "Total Recall."



Kuato is a great name for that one. It ditched its twin as part of the process of absorbing the yolk sac and closing up the umbilical scar. He was totally normal after that, so I sold him with the rest. Somebody out there has a tortoise named Kuato and doesn't know it!


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## kathyth (Aug 5, 2017)

I'm sorry you lost your twins, Tom! I was thinking they were going to make it. You certainly did everything possible.


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## Shaif (Aug 5, 2017)

I'm sorry too. Adorable little torts. And also thank you for sharing. And for of the teaching you give. It must get annoying/frustrating/maddening some times, but I honestly believe you have saved and improved the lives of many, many torts.


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