# Ethical Dilemma Question



## G-stars (Jun 18, 2020)

Hello to everyone,

I would like to know everyone’s opinion on this subject matter from breeder(seller) to owner(buyer). So let’s cut to the chase, here’s the dilema. I recently sold some tortoises about a month ago, before I sold them this particular person (not sure if he’s a member here or not) had the choice of which 3 tortoises he wanted out of 12. The 3 I sent pictures of to him were ready to ship, the other 9 I hadn’t deemed ready to ship yet. But regardless I sent him pictures of the other 9 as well if he wanted to wait a bit longer.

He decided he liked the 3 older ones. So all went well, I shipped them, they arrived well. Everything was okay and still is okay health wise. Today that person texts me and states that he doesn’t trust me and I didn’t take clear pictures. Apparently almost a month later and several pictures after he saw that one had extra scutes. He’s very upset about it and I apologized for not disclosing it. I quite honestly was not trying to sneak in a “B grade tortoise” as he calls it.

My question to y’all is, should I have disclosed it from the beginning or let the pictures do the talking? I mean he had 12 to choose from, only 2 had extra scutes out of the 12.

Here’s one of the pictures I sent that clearly shows that the top one has extra scutes.




@Tom @Markw84 @Kapidolo Farms


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## G-stars (Jun 18, 2020)

In the future I plan to fully disclose if the tortoise has any extra scutes. I don’t want to repeat this incident.


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## Markw84 (Jun 18, 2020)

Gus

Truly like you and enjoy the discussions we've had over the last few years. With that preamble, I do have to say the extra scutes are not clear in the picture and I had to zoom in and look for seams to finally see it in the right costals. I believe in this case I can see the buyers surprise and how it could certainly been missed originally.

I do believe it wise to always point out any possible situation with a tortoise I'm selling. I will point out when they pick - "this one is a little more bumpy than the others as we see some develop this a bit while other remain totally smooth", or " this one has an extra small scute by the 4th vertebral. Totally cosemetic, and some prefer aberrant scutes, and this one does have that extra scute" etc, etc. Certainly in selling sulcatas more so than the $$$ burmese, I find many folks buying a tortoise don't really have the overall knowledge to know what they are looking at when making their first purchase.

So, my answer to your question is yes, you should have disclosed it and made it clear. And in this case, I can see how it would have been totally unkown to the buyer. I would offer a replacement if it were me.


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## method89 (Jun 18, 2020)

as a buyer, I think it should be disclosed. I've seen it disclosed in other ads and generally there is a small deduct in the price. That said, I actually like extra scute torts, makes them unique.


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## G-stars (Jun 18, 2020)




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## G-stars (Jun 18, 2020)

I have already offered the person a replacement tortoise. I believe it was a misunderstanding/ overlook on both our ends.


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## Yvonne G (Jun 18, 2020)

His loss. Aberrant scutes are a desired trait here!

I must admit, not being all that familiar with this species and with that wild and colorful pattern, I can't see the extra scute.


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## Maro2Bear (Jun 18, 2020)

I kind of agree with @Markw84 , but also, since you sent photos that are pretty clear, i see your point as well. What does the buyer want? A discount or a different tortoise? Either way, id make it right (fir the customer) and chalk it up to next time you will be more cautious.

Nice looking babies!


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## SPILL (Jun 18, 2020)

I'd be upset to receive a tortoise with any imperfections without knowing ahead of time but can't imagine waiting a month to bring it to the seller's attention. I do believe your offer of a replacement makes it right.


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## Maro2Bear (Jun 18, 2020)

SPILL said:


> I'd be upset to receive a tortoise with any imperfections without knowing ahead of time but can't imagine waiting a month to bring it to the seller's attention. I do believe your offer of a replacement makes it right.



Good point on the waiting a month......


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## zovick (Jun 18, 2020)

G-stars said:


> Hello to everyone,
> 
> I would like to know everyone’s opinion on this subject matter from breeder(seller) to owner(buyer). So let’s cut to the chase, here’s the dilema. I recently sold some tortoises about a month ago, before I sold them this particular person (not sure if he’s a member here or not) had the choice of which 3 tortoises he wanted out of 12. The 3 I sent pictures of to him were ready to ship, the other 9 I hadn’t deemed ready to ship yet. But regardless I sent him pictures of the other 9 as well if he wanted to wait a bit longer.
> 
> ...


Maybe it is because I am a health care provider and have to disclose all the potential problems with any surgical procedures with my patients before performing them, but I always made certain to point out to potential buyers those tortoises which had extra or split scutes (or any other abnormal conditions) anytime I sold a tortoise. Buyers are often excited and do not take the time to fully examine every millimeter of the photos of the animals in which they are interested. Not disclosing any abnormalities prevents the buyer from acting with "informed consent" which is legally required in many transactions today.

As an example, look at all the side effects of drugs which are duly (and very hastily and matter-of-factly) enumerated on all ads for drugs today. This is to prevent anyone who takes the drug from suing the drug company by saying they were not informed of a certain deleterious side effect before taking it. The disclaimers on cigarette packages regarding cancer are another example of providing "informed consent" to the smoker and getting the tobacco company off the hook in the event of a law suit from a smoker.

At any rate, it seems you have learned a hard lesson here. I heartily recommend just giving the buyer another tortoise (and don't charge for shipping it to him) AND letting him keep the other one. You want to come off looking like the good guy here, not a greedy person, so this buyer will have nothing about which to complain about you to other potential customers down the road.


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## KBeam (Jun 18, 2020)

I think it should be disclosed, but it’s also very obvious in the photo.


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## G-stars (Jun 18, 2020)

Quick update. The buyer will be receiving a new hatchling and keeping the other one. Seems like he is happy about the resolution. I have learned my lesson.


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## method89 (Jun 18, 2020)

G-stars said:


> Quick update. The buyer will be receiving a new hatchling and keeping the other one. Seems like he is happy about the resolution. I have learned my lesson.


keeping the other one?? now that seems a bit much

You should make him send it to me, ? ? ? ?


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## Markw84 (Jun 18, 2020)

G-stars said:


> Quick update. The buyer will be receiving a new hatchling and keeping the other one. Seems like he is happy about the resolution. I have learned my lesson.


Gus

I knew you were that type person and that is why I tried to word my response carefully.

I can add along the lines of Bill's reply, almost all the babies I now sell are by referral or previous buyers coming back. We are always stressing the importance of careful breeder selection in buying a tortoise, and reputation is vital and precious.

Nicely handled!


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## Maggie3fan (Jun 18, 2020)

G-stars said:


> Quick update. The buyer will be receiving a new hatchling and keeping the other one. Seems like he is happy about the resolution. I have learned my lesson.


But you did the right thing, that's impressive, and I'll bet you made some new customers here on TFO nice job


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## G-stars (Jun 18, 2020)

Thank you all for the responses. I was already leaning towards that decision before I posted on here. But it’s always good to hear the opinions/ thoughts of others. I immediately asked the buyer what I could do to make it right and he wanted to exchange the tortoise but shipping was a concern for both of us. The buyer never asked for a free or replacement tortoise. That was my offer to him in order to make it right. I just want to be clear that he was not trying to get a free tortoise out of this.


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## Maro2Bear (Jun 18, 2020)

G-stars said:


> Thank you all for the responses. I was already leaning towards that decision before I posted on here. But it’s always good to hear the opinions/ thoughts of others. I immediately asked the buyer what I could do to make it right and he wanted to exchange the tortoise but shipping was a concern for both of us. The buyer never asked for a free or replacement tortoise. That was my offer to him in order to make it right. I just want to be clear that he was not trying to get a free tortoise out of this.



Nice job & good for you. ?


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## Tom (Jun 18, 2020)

This exact thing happened to me when I bought my first platynota back in 2013. One of them had a subtle, hidden, scute abnormality and another had a divided scute. I also don't notice it for the first month or two. The breeder I purchased from was firm on his price and offered no discounts, even for volume purchase. I paid full top dollar, and I expected perfect specimens. When I brought this to his a attention he was annoyed with me and tried to make it seem like no big deal. He refunded me $50 on a $4000 dollar purchase. I wasn't happy, and am still not happy with that resolution, but I do have a nice group of healthy tortoises in the end, so I've let it lie.

I make it a point to disclose everything, and I offer as many pics as they want. I make it clear that once the tortoise leaves my facility, it cannot come back under any circumstances due to quarantine reasons. Having said that, I'm not sure I would have noticed any issue in the pics you sent. I might not have ever noticed that.

I think your resolution was very generous.


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## Cathie G (Jun 18, 2020)

method89 said:


> keeping the other one?? now that seems a bit much
> 
> You should make him send it to me, ? ? ? ?


Amen to that.


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## method89 (Jun 18, 2020)

all jokes aside, This type of resolution makes good business sense. While you obviously don't and won't want to make it the norm, being known as a good guy in the TFO will definitely lead to more business.


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## SPILL (Jun 18, 2020)

G-stars said:


> Quick update. The buyer will be receiving a new hatchling and keeping the other one. Seems like he is happy about the resolution. I have learned my lesson.


That is going above and beyond. Hopefully your buyer appreciates what a generous gesture this is.


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## zovick (Jun 18, 2020)

G-stars said:


> Quick update. The buyer will be receiving a new hatchling and keeping the other one. Seems like he is happy about the resolution. I have learned my lesson.


Very well done. As Mark noted above, this person may now both refer other buyers to you and become a repeat buyer of your tortoises himself based on this pleasant experience. 

He now feels that you have addressed his concern with compassion and does not feel as though you took advantage of him as he would have had you just said "tough luck" or something similar and done nothing.


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## Cathie G (Jun 18, 2020)

To me it would be more like a beauty mark and special. I guess for certain people you should disclose that...or anyone else just in case they expect perfect cosmetics. Even the perfect ones can have hidden birth defects just like us. I wouldn't beat yourself up over it.


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## G-stars (Jun 18, 2020)

There are many reasons why I did it. First was to make sure the buyer was happy. To get what he thought he paid for. Also the reason why I am not asking for the tortoise back is because of quarantine issues, I’d rather lose out on the cost of one hatchling then lose an entire collection.

From a business point of view, which is not what I am. This makes sense on so many levels, one negative review can cost a business dearly. When I review products I always look at what the negative reviews say never the positive ones. I could care less if it has 5000 5-star reviews, I will see what the 1,& 2-star reviews say and then make my decision whether or not to buy that product.


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## Cathie G (Jun 18, 2020)

G-stars said:


> There are many reasons why I did it. First was to make sure the buyer was happy. To get what he thought he paid for. Also the reason why I am not asking for the tortoise back is because of quarantine issues, I’d rather lose out on the cost of one hatchling then lose an entire collection.
> 
> From a business point of view, which is not what I am. This makes sense on so many levels, one negative review can cost a business dearly. When I review products I always look at what the negative reviews say never the positive ones. I could care less if it has 5000 5-star reviews, I will see what the 1,& 2-star reviews say and then make my decision whether or not to buy that product.


Yes.


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## turtlesailor (Jun 18, 2020)

I think you should disclose it from the beginning. Some people tend think extra scute mean lower grade. Bad health. But it not. It just a odd beauty. 

Some breeders, vendors do sell extra scutes with a discount too.


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## turtlesteve (Jun 18, 2020)

Your response went above and beyond in my book.

I did have a hard time seeing the extra scute in the photo, but would have considered it my error for missing it. That being said, I don’t mind as much as some people and happily take advantage of discounts. I do think really crazy scute patterns confer a slightly higher risk for abnormal growth.


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## KarenSoCal (Jun 19, 2020)

I don't understand why someone would get so upset over an extra or split scutes. The animal underneath is the same.

Are aberrant scutes hereditary? Will the offspring of this baby have aberrant scutes?

I agree with the resolution of the OP's problem. I just don't get all the hoopla. It's not like we have conformation shows for tortoises.


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## jsheffield (Jun 19, 2020)

Again, as always, I'm impressed by the thoughtful and well-mannered discussion here on TFO.

You've already gotten lots of replies, and I think your answer is a good one. If it were me, I think I'd offer either a retroactive discount *or* to let them swap out the tortoise. 

Part of the struggle is that if you're in the business of selling tortoises in this somewhat small world, you need to build and maintain your sterling reputation and although I don't think you did anything wrong, it could be perceived that way by some (including this customer)... a negative transactional experience has a longer half-life and a longer reach than does a good one, so it's often worth it to "fix" a problem even if it's not strictly your fault.

JMHO, YMMV.

Jamie


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## EllyMae (Jun 19, 2020)

I think it should be disclosed, but I think if an animal is healthy, imperfections add to its character.
It reminds me of a time when I was a kid (6 years old or so), I was helping my dad refinish a table. We were sanding it. I was sanding a leg. The legs were kinda like baluster spindles. I got distracted by talking to my dad. I looked down and I had sanded down the curves from the leg being turned to straight. I was very upset I had messed up and ruined the whole table. 
My dad told me not to worry, it gave the table character. It made it special.

If everyone looks alike, then no one is special.


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## C. Nelson (Jun 19, 2020)

Yvonne G said:


> His loss. Aberrant scutes are a desired trait here!
> 
> I must admit, not being all that familiar with this species and with that wild and colorful pattern, I can't see the extra scute.




I'm so glad you said that, because I can't see it either.


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## Temploni (Jun 19, 2020)

Maro2Bear said:


> Nice job & good for you. ?


I think you went beyond your commitment. I would have offered some discount as is normal with extra scutes. The main thing is your customer is happy and you have shown to honesty to resolve the issue.
Good luck to you.


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## Chefdenoel10 (Jun 19, 2020)

Cathie G said:


> Amen to that.


Right????..... why did he get a two for one price!??? Maybe that’s WHY he complained?? He figured you’d be so apologetic that you’d just throw him another one. Seems to me if he was soooooooo upset he SHOULD have given it back! Poor little tortoise. He was super cute with all those scutes. It made him different and maybe WORTH more money???
I don’t like this guy for keeping him. Is he gonna treat him bad because he is different????? Is he gonna love him less?
That’s bad parenting ! And the tortoise suffers.... ???


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## Chefdenoel10 (Jun 19, 2020)

C. Nelson said:


> I'm so glad you said that, because I can't see it either.


Me too!!!!! ???


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## Blackdog1714 (Jun 19, 2020)

I am no expert and saw that beauty on the first go! I would have been silent and not said a word! I just hope buyer treats them as well as you do!


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## Devilineangeletti (Jun 19, 2020)

G-stars said:


> Hello to everyone,
> 
> I would like to know everyone’s opinion on this subject matter from breeder(seller) to owner(buyer). So let’s cut to the chase, here’s the dilema. I recently sold some tortoises about a month ago, before I sold them this particular person (not sure if he’s a member here or not) had the choice of which 3 tortoises he wanted out of 12. The 3 I sent pictures of to him were ready to ship, the other 9 I hadn’t deemed ready to ship yet. But regardless I sent him pictures of the other 9 as well if he wanted to wait a bit longer.
> 
> ...


They are all cute. Picky isn't he?


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## chartle (Jun 19, 2020)

G-stars said:


> Hello to everyone,
> 
> I would like to know everyone’s opinion on this subject matter from breeder(seller) to owner(buyer). So let’s cut to the chase, here’s the dilema. I recently sold some tortoises about a month ago, before I sold them this particular person (not sure if he’s a member here or not) had the choice of which 3 tortoises he wanted out of 12. The 3 I sent pictures of to him were ready to ship, the other 9 I hadn’t deemed ready to ship yet. But regardless I sent him pictures of the other 9 as well if he wanted to wait a bit longer.
> 
> ...


They are so very cute!


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## jaizei (Jun 20, 2020)

KarenSoCal said:


> I don't understand why someone would get so upset over an extra or split scutes. The animal underneath is the same.
> 
> Are aberrant scutes hereditary? Will the offspring of this baby have aberrant scutes?
> 
> I agree with the resolution of the OP's problem. I just don't get all the hoopla. It's not like we have conformation shows for tortoises.




It's not a 'controllable' trait, and usually takes away from symmetry. If someone was able to produce animals with the irregular "zippered" scute pattern on purpose, it would become a designer trait.


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## Nickolas (Jul 8, 2020)

In my opinion, they are all valued the same. God creates every animal as he intends it to be. I think that saying that to a buyer may make someone irritated though.


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