# sillyness, again and again and again and again and again



## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 22, 2013)

w/ all due respect to TFO, the mods etc., if ballon animal and plastic tortoise images keep afloat in the thread list for their cuteness, or a serious inquiry for tea is met with bumps based on mind's eye images expressed numerous times of turtles 'playing tea party', maybe it's time to consider a new POV for splitting threads, "chelonians' herpetology" from "giggle posts".

Just thinking out loud here.

That's my wine, you'all have supplied plenty of cheese.

What say ye?

Will.


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## mctlong (Jan 22, 2013)

I couldn't disagree more. I see no problem with a little silliness mixed in. It keeps things light and fun. 

And besides, we already have an off-topic chit chat area on the forum for things that are way off tortoise topic.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 22, 2013)

mctlong said:


> I couldn't disagree more. I see no problem with a little silliness mixed in. It keeps things light and fun.
> 
> And besides, we already have an off-topic chit chat area on the forum for things that are way off tortoise topic.



I could not agree more "a little" and/or in the off topic threads, so in principle we probably agree.

But real inquiries are often buried by the sillyness, and that sorta defeats what seems to me the primary purpose here, to help and facilitate people's quality care for their chelonians.

That's why I'm here.

Will.


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## CtTortoiseMom (Jan 22, 2013)

I like the cheese but not the wine. The threads that do not specifically pertain to what you are looking for do not stop you in your quest for serious tortoise discussion, obtaining tortoises or whatever it is that you are here for. Just because a goofy thread is bumped idoes not mean you have to read it or that it take's away from your thread in any way. We are all tortoise keepers but we are not all here for the same reasons and I think this this forum does a great job of supporting our eclectic group.


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## wellington (Jan 22, 2013)

I also disagree. This is a great forum because we can share anything. Laugh, disagree, maybe even cry a little. However, we can always come together for a great laugh, or off the wall discussion. It makes for a very comfortable place to be. The tortoise and turtle questions are always answered. Members are always helped. If you can't laugh once in a while, this would be quite a boring place to be. We are all here to learn, see pictures, hear tortoise stories and get help. We all aren't here to be tortoise scientist or breeders, or herptologist. Some, maybe most of use, are here because we have a pet tortoise or turtle and want to talk with others that do also and learn the best way to take care of them, or get help if one is sick. If it was nothing but all serious, and scientific, not many would stick around.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 22, 2013)

CtTortoiseMom said:


> I like the cheese but not the wine. The threads that do not specifically pertain to what you are looking for do not stop you in your quest for serious tortoise discussion, obtaining tortoises or whatever it is that you are here for. Just because a goofy thread is bumped idoes not mean you have to read it or that it take's away from your thread in any way. We are all tortoise keepers but we are not all here for the same reasons and I think this this forum does a great job of supporting our eclectic group.



Well, that's just it, for one inquiry of interest, there are several 'silly' responses that do get read, so as to follow the thread, to sort out the silly from the serious, so following posts to that thread are coherent with the serious, and not the thick bits of silly.

I do not have an interest in discouraging 'turtle tea party' ideas or thoughts at all, but mingled in and among an answer to a real question is sillyness.

People have referred to science as 'mumbo jumbo', as an expression of the angst with a learning threshold beyond their interest, perhaps capability. I fond this POV as a balance to that.

There is a chat for music, I've looked through it, but it's called what it is, it's not an anecdote about Motley Crue or the Gibbs in the middle of someone seeking info on a diet item.

It's like going to the produce section at your grocery store and seeing bicycle tires next to the carrots. I know mega grocers carry bike tires, even engine oil, but they are not mixed in with the produce, or behind the glass fish case.

Will.


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## CtTortoiseMom (Jan 22, 2013)

So what your saying is that you really thought that a tortoise balloon animal was going to be a deep scientific discussion and you wasted precious minutes reading all of the "so cute" posts? Is that the main point of this thread? I also do not believe the majority of TFO believes that science is "Mumbo jumbo".


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 22, 2013)

CtTortoiseMom said:


> So what your saying is that you really thought that a tortoise balloon animal was going to be a deep scientific discussion and you wasted precious minutes reading all of the "so cute" posts? Is that the main point of this thread? I also do not believe the majority of TFO believes that science is "Mumbo jumbo".



On the ballon animal, my first thought was someone was posting an image of a prolapse, after that I looked no further.

My main point, which I'm figure was read over, is the insertion of sillyness within the serious interest, and posts that are entirely silly, in real thread categories.

See how this thread is in 'debatable topics' while the ballon animal is not in 'other photos', but in the section for images about turtles.

There are many great interest thread on many forums about chelonian philately or chelonian numismatics. Not about real chelonians or actual chelonian issues, but still of interest and related to the big picture.

I have no idea the proportion of mumbo jumbo folks that are here, but the expression or derivatives of it have been used frequently. And frankly, if one is open to imagine a small table with turtles in little dresses sipping their high noon tea, then I would presume it's ok for me to imagine the left side of the bell curve of people here.

Will.


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## mctlong (Jan 22, 2013)

Will said:


> And frankly, if one is open to imagine a small table with turtles in little dresses sipping their high noon tea, then I would presume it's ok for me to imagine the left side of the bell curve of people here.



What??!!! Are you seriously saying that people with a sense of humor are on "the left side of the bell curve?" Thats just ridiculous.

I'll leave you with one of my favorite Maya Angelou quotes:
â€œI don't trust anyone who doesn't laugh.â€


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 22, 2013)

Not the laughing bell curve, I enjoy finding humor in many places. The bell curve I speak of it the one that determines who rides the short bus.
Will.


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## CtTortoiseMom (Jan 22, 2013)

I enjoy the silliness but laugh most at the delusions of grandeur.


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## mctlong (Jan 22, 2013)

Will said:


> Not the laughing bell curve, I enjoy finding humor in many places. The bell curve I speak of it the one that determines who rides the short bus. Will



So, to clarify, you're saying that people who find the tortoise tea party funny are unintelligent?


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 22, 2013)

mctlong said:


> Will said:
> 
> 
> > Not the laughing bell curve, I enjoy finding humor in many places. The bell curve I speak of it the one that determines who rides the short bus. Will
> ...



In short, No. I find them unrelated, no correlation at all.

Will


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## mctlong (Jan 22, 2013)

CtTortoiseMom said:


> I enjoy the silliness but laugh most at the delusions of grandeur.



What we could use in this forum is a "like" button.


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## Tom (Jan 22, 2013)

Why are you leaving huge spaces at the end of your posts?


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## Melly-n-shorty (Jan 22, 2013)

I think this thread is sillier then all the above listed threads (JMHO)
look I can make a big space after my post too 
.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 22, 2013)

Tom said:


> Why are you leaving huge spaces at the end of your posts?



You know Tom, I love in a purely platonic man-ly kind of way.

I left that huge empty space there to illustrate how annoying reading silliness in serious posts can be, but I did not seek for anyone to actually read content, just use the scroll function on their 'puter.

And it is indeed annoying, you win the prize, I don't know what the prize is, maybe you can tell me something you want, I am open to suggestion.

I won't do that anymore.

See, I find that funny, and Tom with a straight forward question has put a bigger smile on my face than all cute antics my cat does everyday. IF I were to post cat images though they would be in the other photos thread, or maybe in the "pretend chat" under off topics next time cat images are posted there. 

I won't post an image of the tortoise shell pattern of my cat under images about tortoises.

Will




Melly-n-shorty said:


> I think this thread is sillier then all the above listed threads (JMHO)
> 
> look I can make a big space after my post too
> 
> .



OMG, this is all so funny, Tom and Melly-n-shorty both get prizes, though I still don't know what they are.

See how I took all that space out, a promise is a promise.

Will


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## wellington (Jan 22, 2013)

I Will agree with Will, haha. That some of the threads aren't in the correct sections. Thats the fault of the member posting. Some just arent sure where it should go. Also, I'm sure the mods are busy with all the new members we are getting on a daily basis to worry about moving those threads to the correct place. I also agree there may be some silliness within a some what serious thread. I persoanlly have not seen any of this in a thread that I would consider serious. A sick or dying tortoise is a serious thread to me. A thread, where the enclosure or diet or general care is all wrong, is a serious thread to me. There may be a few more examples that excape me at the moment, however, I can't say, I've seen silliness in these types of threads.
BTW, glad you were purposely leaving the space. I thought my ipad was screwing up again, which its been doing today anyway


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 22, 2013)

I agree. The tortoise tea party thing...What on earth does someone have to think to ask if their tortoise can drink tea? It goes on to long, in the wrong category...If you want to post humorous "crap", then post it in chit-chat. The forum, the way I see it, is for owners to ask questions and be answered, with maybe a little humor mixed in. As far as not knowing where to post it....Don't post it at all.
Now, of course, this feeling will never be universally shared, and there is nothing that will ever be done about it. However, glad to know I'm not the only one that finds it annoying when a thread dominates a category for weeks on end, gathering almost a hundred posts, when the sole purpose is how cute someone thinks their tortoises' butt looks....


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## wellington (Jan 22, 2013)

That's what's nice about being able to pass those threads up if you have no interest.


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## CtTortoiseMom (Jan 22, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> I agree. The tortoise tea party thing...What on earth does someone have to think to ask if their tortoise can drink tea? It goes on to long, in the wrong category...If you want to post humorous "crap", then post it in chit-chat. The forum, the way I see it, is for owners to ask questions and be answered, with maybe a little humor mixed in. As far as not knowing where to post it....Don't post it at all.
> Now, of course, this feeling will never be universally shared, and there is nothing that will ever be done about it. However, glad to know I'm not the only one that finds it annoying when a thread dominates a category for weeks on end, gathering almost a hundred posts, when the sole purpose is how cute someone thinks their tortoises' butt looks....



I never even read the tea party thread. I think it will help you both to recognize and avoid the silly threads. I only ever see you posting in debatable threads so it is becoming obvious what you use this forum for.


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## MrJorgensen (Jan 22, 2013)

I am so sorry that my post titled, "Tortoise Balloon Animal, Seriously" was interpreted by you to be something other than a tortoise balloon animal.



Will said:


> Not the laughing bell curve, I enjoy finding humor in many places. The bell curve I speak of it the one that determines who rides the short bus. Will
> .



And, you know, the two severely autistic children I have in my classroom did love the balloon animal.

It was a photo of a tortoise. Thus, I posted it in the Tortoise Photos and Videos section. Was it real? No. Did I pretend it was? No.

If you are looking for a serious topic, you may use the search bar. If you don't want to see humor in a thread, don't click on any that I've posted in. I enjoy enjoying life. Smiling and laughing are a big part of how I live. When serious and bad things happen, I want to laugh and move on. I also believe that in how I participate in this forum. To be serious all the time is not necessary. In my opinion, it is extremely unhealthy. Relax a little.

I appreciate you noticing my thread. I'm going to put my floaties on and take a bath now. I hope you say how stupid this post is by the time I return.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 22, 2013)

[/quote]

I never even read the tea party thread. I think it will help you both to recognize and avoid the silly threads. I only ever see you posting in debatable threads so it is becoming obvious what you use this forum for.
[/quote]

Oh dear....Obvious what I use this forum for? 99% of the time I post in the Diet and Feeding, Health or Redfoot section. Its what I know. Its what I post about. Now, like any other individual, I post in the debatable topics from time to time. Why? To try to clear up this misinformation commonly posted there. To lead owners in the correct directions...Thats my only purpose. But all of this has no matter. Its becoming obvious YOUR only purpose of that statement was to anger me. Its immature; please refrain from more posts like that.

We can ignore the ones SPECIFICALLY detailed to silliness, yes....But as Will said, it gets annoying having to sort through the serious and the silliness. To recognize them, we need a button next to every thread, so that it may be tagged silly and un-serious. However, these silly threads are commonly posted in the wrong category...Therefore, the thread should not have been made in that section. It all comes back to the poster for some reason being unable to recognize the proper categorization of their serious and silly threads....Its pretty straight-forward, in my opinion, to figure out. 
There is next to nothing , however, that we can do about this, other then the moderators going on over-time to sort it all out. Which, they do not have the time to do.

This seems like its getting a little heated....There is no reason to become offended , people. I enjoy humor; I love humor. Ask anyone who knows me in the real world....But some people tire of sorting through these things. Half of them aren't even related to tortoises, besides the fact that the latex balloon shares the same general shape. Thats not enough. Its about real tortoises; behavior, health-problems, diet, general care, etc.


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## CtTortoiseMom (Jan 22, 2013)

I thought of one more thing that could help you... If you see a member posting things that are far too silly for a serious keeper like yourself you can block them. It is in your user settings.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 22, 2013)

CtTortoiseMom said:


> I thought of one more thing that could help you... If you see a member posting things that are far too silly for a serious keeper like yourself you can block them. It is in your user settings.



That sounds reasonable. Heres the issue...Many keepers here I love reading some of there posts, but they get into the silliness....I still would like to see their knowledgable, serious posts. I just don't want to read the silly. Blocking them would be counter-productive, in that manner.
Please, stop trying to be offensive. There is really no reason for it in a matter such as this...


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 22, 2013)

CtTortoiseMom said:


> I never even read the tea party thread. I think it will help you both to recognize and avoid the silly threads. I only ever see you posting in debatable threads so it is becoming obvious what you use this forum for.



http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-60823.html

is what I have called the tortoise tea party thread. The person was asking about what value may be had offering tea to drink, to their tortoise. Like Lipton or herbal etc. did not come out as they OP's interest was waylaid by so many many silly posts.

For example when I moisten the grassland pellets, I don't dump that water, I offer it to the tortoises in another small dish. Sometimes they drink it, and that is essentially a tea. It is not offerd instead of clear fresh water, but in addition to it. I speculate the tortoise would get a similar opportunity with a puddle on some rocks that collects water each morning from dew or the like.

Anyhow, the topic was/is interesting, and it was floated with and buried with what seems to me to be off-topic conversation.

I hope rustybread will spark other thinking out loud ideas and questions.

Jacqui was peaked to recall the tea preps from the same era that I recalled them from too, so perhaps that might be some validation of the notion if you don't want to take it from me.

Will


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## CtTortoiseMom (Jan 22, 2013)

Will said:


> CtTortoiseMom said:
> 
> 
> > I never even read the tea party thread. I think it will help you both to recognize and avoid the silly threads. I only ever see you posting in debatable threads so it is becoming obvious what you use this forum for.
> ...



Oh no, I "saw" the thread. I did not read it because I gathered from the title that it was not something I would enjoy reading. I do appreciate you posting it though.


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## wellington (Jan 22, 2013)

I didn't read the whole thread before either. I just ran through it. I do see your point. However, when it is something that I want to read to see if there is something in it I could use, I skim past the silly threads and go right to the ones that aren't. You usually can tell within just a few words if its a post you want to read. Sometimes, I will only read the post of the members I would take advice from. I do like the silliness, all thought I get your point.


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## Jacqui (Jan 22, 2013)

I am only speaking for myself here.... I love coming across unexpected threads like the balloon one. In this mini world of this forum, I have to read and see pictures of such heartbreaking sights and share the pain as caretakers suffer through their animals being sick or their deaths, I for one know I need those moments of silly threads or comments just to keep from becoming depressed. I myself am the type of person in real life who gives out one liners and zings. I try to be the same person online as you would find if you walked into my home. I believe that advise that is given without heart, given without putting your own emotions into it falls short in giving the other members all of what they may need. The problem is you can not give and give without draining your own emotions. I see the humor as a recharge for our batteries. Folks need to see they are not alone in their struggles. Sometimes when things are not going right, you need those odd humor moments to forge ahead. Those folks also need to see us laugh and joke among ourselves. It makes us a family and gives us strength. This world of tortoises is something we are all very passionate about. That passion makes us tend to be easily aroused to anger and heated comments, the humor helps heal those moments.

Will your sense of humor does not match mine, because of that we both fail to "see" and appreciate the humor in each others comments and actions. Just as you live in a world of more scientific and seriousness then do I. I appreciate however, the fact that we are different. That you need the more serious side, as I need the humor side. I firmly believe this forum is big enough for both kinds of members (plus those that fall into other groups).

Since you mentioned my comment on the tea thread, if I had not taken the time to skim over most of those tea party comments (yes, I honestly stopped reading them after the first couple) I would not have thought about the tea usage from my past. The serious posts would not have been enough to bring it back to me.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 22, 2013)

In my opinion, as long as the question was answered, I think a bit of "silliness" is ok. What a dry, boring Forum this would be if we were not allowed to try to be funny every once in a while. I do believe the person who asked about giving his tortoise tea had his question answered.

As to where the threads should be placed...most new members put their threads in the wrong category. I sometimes recognize the mistake and I sometimes miss it. I try to be on top of that sort of thing, but its a pretty big job with all our new members each day. Sorry, I'll try harder.


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## Jacqui (Jan 22, 2013)

emysemys said:


> As to where the threads should be placed...most new members put their threads in the wrong category. I sometimes recognize the mistake and I sometimes miss it. I try to be on top of that sort of thing, but its a pretty big job with all our new members each day. Sorry, I'll try harder.



Often I leave a thread in the wrong place just because new folks have troubles finding them once they are moved. I did not think the balloon tortoise actually HAD to be moved, because it did meet what the zone uses as a requirement.


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## Team Gomberg (Jan 22, 2013)

emysemys said:


> Sorry, I'll try harder.



this made me sad to read...

You do a wonderful job Yvonne and you do work hard! Thank you 

I'm new to forums and only use this one. There are some posts or even certain "posters" I just simply avoid if I'm not interested. 

I guess it's a good thing you are just dealing with "sillyness" and not something more extreme.


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## Jacqui (Jan 22, 2013)

Team Gomberg said:


> emysemys said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, I'll try harder.
> ...



Me too.  I don't think folks realize how much time and heart Yvonne gives to this place.


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## Laurie (Jan 22, 2013)

This whole thread made me sad to read. This forum certainly has a different "feel" to it from when I joined. 

I've met many people on this forum I would consider friends and even keep in touch with ones who aren't around anymore. 

It just seems almost every little thing on here now becomes an argument.


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## LeopardTortLover (Jan 22, 2013)

Just a thought... maybe a welcome message could be put together for new members explaining what different categories are used for, what should go in them, and how to find their posts if they are moved?


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## wellington (Jan 22, 2013)

Laurie said:


> This whole thread made me sad to read. This forum certainly has a different "feel" to it from when I joined.
> 
> I've met many people on this forum I would consider friends and even keep in touch with ones who aren't around anymore.
> 
> It just seems almost every little thing on here now becomes an argument.



I agree. Different from just over a year and a half ago. Some very helpful, knowledgeable members are hardly on any more. Some, not at all.


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## sibi (Jan 22, 2013)

To those who find it silly or annoying to read posts that have been misdirected here i say this: There those that can be described as snobby elitists that I find annoying. They can learn a lesson from our tortoise balloon characters; from time to time, they need to release hot air, and that's what i think you are doing right now. Don't you find that hilarious =P=P=P


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## wellington (Jan 22, 2013)

Jacqui said:


> Team Gomberg said:
> 
> 
> > emysemys said:
> ...



Me too. Jacqui, I think most of us do realize how much Yvonne and you both do for this forum. With time, the newer members will too.


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## Laurie (Jan 22, 2013)

sibi said:


> To those who find it silly or annoying to read posts that have been misdirected here i say this: There those that can be described as snobby elitists that I find annoying. They can learn a lesson from our tortoise balloon characters; from time to time, they need to release hot air, and that's what i think you are doing right now. Don't you find that hilarious =P=P=P



Elitism is the perfect word to describe the feel of this forum now a days in my opinion.


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## Melly-n-shorty (Jan 22, 2013)

Yvonne and Jacqui do a wonderful job! they cant make everyone happy so we should all try to be good kids and play nice


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## tortallyinsane11 (Jan 22, 2013)

mctlong said:


> What we could use in this forum is a "like" button.



I love the "like" button idea!


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## sibi (Jan 22, 2013)

Don't let elitist members get to you. There are few and in-between on this forum, thank goodness! The majority here are knowledgeable, warm, and funny. Our moderators are examples of what this forum is all about. When we come across the "elitist" mentality, just pity them because they HAVE to feel important; otherwise they are miserable. This forum is big enough for even them. Caving in to their demands will only emboldened them and chase others away. Instead, if they don't like how things are run here, tough! Oh, and I am playing nice so far.



Laurie said:


> sibi said:
> 
> 
> > To those who find it silly or annoying to read posts that have been misdirected here i say this: There those that can be described as snobby elitists that I find annoying. They can learn a lesson from our tortoise balloon characters; from time to time, they need to release hot air, and that's what i think you are doing right now. Don't you find that hilarious =P=P=P
> ...


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 22, 2013)

I'm sorry, but this is disappointing....A thought about the over-abundance of "silliness" in serious threads turns into thinly-veiled attacks on other members by calling them "snobby elitists" and talking about them as bratty children. Really? Thats not "off-topic"? Your criticizing exactly what you are being. Why don't we talk about what the original topic was? I see people here complaining about how "everything turns into an argument now-a-days" while they themselves are literally TRYING to start an argument. Please stop....
Some of us are all serious, scientific, yada yada. They are not "elitists" and calling them that is just a thinly-veiled attempt to **** them off. Some of us are silly, joking, goof-balls. I, myself, like and am a little bit of both. There just needs to be a balance....The amount of the silly, joking, pointless threads is steadily increasing. I think that is what is the annoyance. There is more silly and less serious.


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## sibi (Jan 22, 2013)

You are so predictable.


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## Laurie (Jan 22, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> I'm sorry, but this is disappointing....A thought about the over-abundance of "silliness" in serious threads turns into thinly-veiled attacks on other members by calling them "snobby elitists" and talking about them as bratty children. Really? Thats not "off-topic"? Your criticizing exactly what you are being. Why don't we talk about what the original topic was? I see people here complaining about how "everything turns into an argument now-a-days" while they themselves are literally TRYING to start an argument. Please stop....
> Some of us are all serious, scientific, yada yada. They are not "elitists" and calling them that is just a thinly-veiled attempt to **** them off. Some of us are silly, joking, goof-balls. I, myself, like and am a little bit of both. There just needs to be a balance....The amount of the silly, joking, pointless threads is steadily increasing. I think that is what is the annoyance. There is more silly and less serious.



I'm sorry if you viewed my post as a "thinly veiled attack" the phrase actually makes me laugh. I'm not "attacking" anyone. Just stated my opinion, that this forum has a different feel to it than when I was very active on here. It has nothing to do with you, if you took it personally, than I'm sorry, I do not know anything about you or followed any of your posts.

If I wanted to "literally" start an argument on here, I would do it openly and not "thinly veiled" , so I'm not sure how I can "please stop". It's not what I'm about, lol!


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 22, 2013)

I wasn't so much talking about you Laurie. I could tell you weren't looking to start an argument, and I understand your opinion. I agree; there is a lot of "elitism" around. I just don't see the need to call it out offensively, as some members have done. As someone said back there, everything seems to turn into an argument when it doesn't need to...Even something as silly as this.


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## Jacqui (Jan 22, 2013)

Okay guys, back to talking about silly threads and if they should have a place here or not. Are they becoming too common?


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## Zabbi0 (Jan 22, 2013)

I read the first page of this thread, & totally LOL'd @ the ridiculousness of it all. How about that for an answer? Have a sense of humor my friends. It's okay, I promise you.  It's not going to kill you. Well, unless it does.  'I just died laughing' Heh heh get it


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## morloch (Jan 22, 2013)

I'm a fairly new member here and I truly enjoy this forum!! Personally I don't mind a little silliness , especially after a full day of seriousness,,( at work). Keep in mind we have all age groups posting on this site. I think a majority of the members here do their best to post in appropriate sections. I agree,, if you are not interested,, don't read it. This forum is built around the love we have for our torts. And everyone's thoughts and opinions is what makes us all individually unique! A little forgiveness goes a long way! Just because our torts are perfect, doesn't mean we are!!! ðŸ˜Š


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 22, 2013)

Zabbi0 said:


> I read the first page of this thread, & totally LOL'd @ the ridiculousness of it all. How about that for an answer? Have a sense of humor my friends. It's okay, I promise you.  It's not going to kill you. Well, unless it does.  'I just died laughing' Heh heh get it



Never! I am far to elite to indulge in such lesser-minded behavior. I will watch from my high horse.

I agree. I love laughing, I like humor, its all good. There is just becoming an over-abundance of it. However, thats just MY opinion. There really is nothing we can do about it though. The ones posted in the wrong section, sure, the mods can go on overtime to relocate or delete them all. But they can't delete the majority of it. What can be done? Tell everyone they will be banned if they don't stop laughing and be serious? I'm pretty sure this forum would spiral into chaos within a matter of days...This thread is more just a complaining about it, I think, because nothing can be done...


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## animalfreak (Jan 22, 2013)

wellington said:


> I also disagree. This is a great forum because we can share anything. Laugh, disagree, maybe even cry a little. However, we can always come together for a great laugh, or off the wall discussion. It makes for a very comfortable place to be. The tortoise and turtle questions are always answered. Members are always helped. If you can't laugh once in a while, this would be quite a boring place to be. We are all here to learn, see pictures, hear tortoise stories and get help. We all aren't here to be tortoise scientist or breeders, or herptologist. Some, maybe most of use, are here because we have a pet tortoise or turtle and want to talk with others that do also and learn the best way to take care of them, or get help if one is sick. If it was nothing but all serious, and scientific, not many would stick around.



Could NOT have said it better myself wow well said!!!!! Lol I will add.... Nah you pretty much said it better than I would haha!!!!


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## wellington (Jan 22, 2013)

morloch said:


> I'm a fairly new member here and I truly enjoy this forum!! Personally I don't mind a little silliness , especially after a full day of seriousness,,( at work). Keep in mind we have all age groups posting on this site. I think a majority of the members here do their best to post in appropriate sections. I agree,, if you are not interested,, don't read it. This forum is built around the love we have for our torts. And everyone's thoughts and opinions is what makes us all individually unique! A little forgiveness goes a long way! Just because our torts are perfect, doesn't mean we are!!! ðŸ˜Š



What, not perfect. I have never had anyone tell me I'm not perfect. How dare you  
Okay, back on track. Live, love, laugh, learn


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## morloch (Jan 22, 2013)

Ditto!


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## animalfreak (Jan 22, 2013)

Okay guys this has gone on a while!! I personally think that humor is a good healthy thing that is like air to me. The questions and serious posts I still enjoy reading though but who wants a forum just about sick tortoises NOT ME! I want a forum that is a mixture of tortoises, humor and just other things! This is a great forum and I've loved it and I've met some amazing people! I've gotten advice, given it, and just got lots of joy from this! So we need those extra things!! We need serious questions and topics that's what this is for and I've found it helps a lot! But we also need humor and life and joy! I want to help the ones that need healing and laugh with the ones with joy! Maybe we should work on the spots we post out threads but that's a little problem that no one needs to get all worked up about! I think that covers it and that was pretty good! HUMOR (JOY) A MUST!


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## sibi (Jan 22, 2013)

My point exactly. I personally haven't read any "silly" threads; so, understandingly, I don't understand what the big deal is all about. Most of us like humor from time to time, and if a member starts a thread in the wrong place, remedies have already been suggested. I don't think the moderator should have to do anything more than they've already been doing. That's my opinion.


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## lynnedit (Jan 22, 2013)

Factoids: 
There are still a lot of really nice people on this forum. I ignore the rest. People come and go.

Our moderators do a wonderful job, I don't know how they do it.

For pete's sake, this forum is for learning, yes, but it is also what most of us do on our free time. It is not work and should have an element of fun. Read the post you want, skip the ones you don't.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 22, 2013)

Jacqui said:


> Okay guys, back to talking about silly threads and if they should have a place here or not. Are they becoming too common?



Hi Jacqui,

So, in short yes, I think they are too common/too much.

In the past it was bunches of emoticons (smily faces as an entire response).

I too have given a few meaningless bumps to threads, someone posted a picture of their tort laying eggs, I said it can never get to old to see that. It did not ad value, but I'd hope it would encourage more such posts.

I frankly don't know the burden of being a mod, but have heard emysemys talk about how much she loves it, so what to do?

I guess the one rational bit of feedback offered was to have people who introduce themself, receive some sort of indication about what's what. A few times I've sought direct guidance from emysemys about how to post something as it was not apparent to me.

As for skilled people leaving or reducing their posts and contributions - why do you suppose that is. Maybe to much 'crap' as another put it. 

But my very interest here has turned into a gut purge party for those who thrive on trite, sorry to you and emysemys for that. 

Vets, I have seen few ever actually post, think of that pool of experience and expertise that is lost to posts like a wooden sculpture posted as a pancake tort. It seems some folks like to luxuriate in lack of knowledge.

Again, apologies to you and emysemys and whoever else is a mod for further bringing out the silly. I guess like all carnivores if one dies in the feeding frenzy, more meat for the meat eaters. Bad chum on my part.

Will


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## sibi (Jan 22, 2013)

If you are so disappointed with the quality of members posts, then perhaps there is some other forum that can quench your appetite. I don't mean this in a negative way,and I certainly don't want to sound offensive. I just don't read "silly" posts, and it may be why i can't see what you see. All I know is that many of us here totally enjoy the sharing of information and emotions when it's in reference to our torts. No doubt, more scientific minds like yours may find it challenging to read/respond to less scientific thinking, but that's something that goes with the territory. Trust me, your feeling on the subject is in the minority. And for that, I am sorry for you. I mean this in the most sincerest way.


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## EKLC (Jan 22, 2013)

I am always disappointed when I click on a fake tortoise thread. Would much rather it be the real thing. When it comes to tortoise paraphernalia, I always think, that money could go to a tortoise conservation effort. 

Also, science can be mumbo jumbo too. The peer-review process is pretty lackluster since no one is actually reproducing any experiments and the name on the paper is often the determining factor in it getting published. A lot of times a scientist must stick with ineffective methods, or work towards the conclusion, because funding organizations don't like when you detour from your proposal.


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## wellington (Jan 23, 2013)

Personally Will, I think some members aren't on so much because I think some changes or request behind the scenes were made to some. Others I don't think are on, because so many new members asking the same questions over and over instead of using the forums search thread or browsing through the sections. Yes, probably some for the reasons that started this thread, the silly and some, down right stupid threads. I have too agree, there are a lot of them. I also think some of them aren't posting as much, because as new members learn, they can answer the basic questions that are endlessly being asked. However, I do believe it takes it all to make the great forum we have. Would it be nice if there were less silly or stupid threads, maybe. Would it be nice if every new member did their research on here before asking the same question that has been asked and answered a thousand times, probably. The great thing bout this forum though, all this stuff can keep going on and most of us will still laugh, even respond and your question will get answered, yet once again.


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## harris (Jan 23, 2013)

Just delete the smiley icons and call it a day. That's really the only silliness I've noticed. Some people can't type a sentence without inserting one.


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## mctlong (Jan 23, 2013)

harris said:


> Just delete the smiley icons and call it a day. That's really the only silliness I've noticed. Some people can't type a sentence without inserting one.



Why are people always dissing the smiley icon? I like the smiley icon.

In real life, we add emotions to casual conversations using body language and facial expressions. We cannot express these emotions online (at least, not without lengthy descriptions). So, we use the smiley icon instead.


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## Jacqui (Jan 23, 2013)

As a Mod on this and othr forums the most often complaints are:

1. Having the same question asked over and over again. (so you give them a place to find that answer on their own or show them the threads they need) Then the person still will ask the basic question again.

2. Rudeness and being unwelcoming coupled with fighting.

Along with that coming in to third place is a lot of the more "experienced" folks getting tired of not really learning anything on such a forum. We all want to learn more and grow, but in a forum like this it does cater more to the beginner with basic simple needs. For example most just want to know what an urate is and how to keep their tortoise from having issues with it. They don't want to know how it is made up or why water is important in the equation. The more advance tend to be the one wanting to completely understand the hows and whys, not just the quick fix.

Burn out on any forum is high and life has a way of pulling us to new experiences in life and new endeavours away from forums. Not everybody will "fit" into a forum nor will a forum remain constant in it's activity level or personality. Sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes a bad thing, but whichever it is it's life.

As to Vets, yes it would be great if we had more of them on, but think about it, your surrounded all day by folks wanting your medical advise. Do you really want to spend your freetime facing the same thing? They want time to relax, unwind, enjoy their tortoises but we drown them in "help me with this", "I don't want to pay for a Vet so give me your knowledge and time for free", "fix my tortoise sight unseen from 1,000 miles away with very little information to work on", and other such threads, posts, and PMs.

The sad thing is, while we have the same basic complaints and problems cycling around in here, finding a solution seems to be the real sticking point. When we do try "fixing" things, those opposed get angry and say "that is why folks are leaving" if we don't fix it we hear, "that is why folks are leaving". I know we Mods are told that all the time. We do try to listen to ideas folks send us or post on threads, along with trying a few of our own. Even once the Mods debate and decide on an action plan, for most things we have to wait for Josh to approve or atleast give his feedback and then often he has to start the ball rolling. Change in here takes time and can be very frustrating even for us.

So Will (and others who think we are having too many "silly" threads and posts, tell me if you owned this site, how would you solve this problem. Be detailed, not just say, "I wouldn't allow "silly" posts". What defines your terms as silly? Do folks get in trouble if they post "silly"? Do Mods delete all "silly" comments and threads?


*Debate the topic, NOT each other. Stop the personal attacks. *

This is the second warning and I can tell you now, Yvonne will be coming in here and deleting a lot of posts and comments because you keep going personal with it. (I am having her do the deleting because I am active in this debate thread and do not wish it to appear the deletion is being done to only show comments I may favor).


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## mctlong (Jan 23, 2013)

I think the issue that is becoming clear on this thread is that there are _at least_ two different types of thinkers. There are those that view the world in a concrete manner, made up of facts and order. Then there are those who perceive and rely on the unspoken emotions and abstract imagery behind the facts (i.e. the gray area that includes, but is not limited to, silliness). Both are equally important and neither group has more or less intelligence than the other. Most people likely fall somewhere in the middle of these two groups with some leaning a little more toward the facts and some leaning a little more toward the emotion. 

This forum had tens of thousands of users and we all have to accept and make space for those who think differently than we do. Some people (such as myself) find the silly threads to be a necessary part of creating a camaraderie with other tort owners. Laughing is important, IMO. However, I respect that others are more inclined to post solely in facts and concrete truths without the silliness. Thats fine too. Ultimately, we all have the ability to pick and choose the posts we read. If a post doesn't satiate your palette, don't read it. Move to another post.

I cannot condone the idea of discluding posts for reasons of them being too silly because I think that this discludes the thoughts and feelings of the people behind the posts and this forum is not about disculding people because they may think or perceive differently than others. 

Well, thats my two cents anyways.


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## Jacqui (Jan 23, 2013)

mctlong said:


> I think the issue that is becoming clear on this thread is that there are _at least_ two different types of thinkers. There are those that view the world in a concrete manner, made up of facts and order. Then there are those who perceive and rely on the unspoken emotions and abstract imagery behind the facts (i.e. the gray area that includes, but is not limited to, silliness). Both are equally important and neither group has more or less intelligence than the other. Most people likely fall somewhere in the middle of these two groups with some leaning a little more toward the facts and some leaning a little more toward the emotion.
> 
> This forum had tens of thousands of users and we all have to accept and make space for those who think differently than we do. Some people (such as myself) find the silly threads to be a necessary part of creating a camaraderie with other tort owners. Laughing is important, IMO. However, I respect that others are more inclined to post solely in facts and concrete truths without the silliness. Thats fine too. Ultimately, we all have the ability to pick and choose the posts we read. If a post doesn't satiate your palette, don't read it. Move to another post.
> 
> ...



You sell yourself short, that post is worth a lot more then two cents. Very nicely worded!


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 23, 2013)

I would type some more, but I think mctlong said it better then anyone could.
Jacqui,
Thats the problem. There is nothing that can be done, because nothing should be. Am I annoyed by the over-abundance of silly? Certainly. But if we start yelling at everyone "stop being a silly idiot and serious-yourself up!" I'm pretty sure the forum would have 0 active members the next day.
The only thing is, you can say "don't read the thread if it annoys you". I think Will's point (and mine) was that all of the silly is mixed in with the serious threads. You have a thread you really want to read, someone brings up something about tea, 12 members respond, and then you have to sort through it. Now, when those 12 members just say "right on", or "tortoise tea party!" single, meaningless sentences, we can skip them. When its a paragraph-and-a-half, it ends up taking quite a long time to sort through it all, to pick whats worth reading (to you) and whats not. The off-topic silliness in the serious threads is the annoying part.




yagyujubei said:


> REDFOOTSRULE: I can't believe that I'm saying this, but I agree with you.



I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with you to...


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## ra94131 (Jan 23, 2013)

Ultimately this is just an internet forum; albeit a very helpful and informative one. Since the first time I used the internet I've been filtering out the "silliness", but what is silly to me may be the reason another user logs in.

It is important to remember that this is not a community of experts or professionals, but one composed exclusively of amateurs and hobbyists.* I think everyone should keep this in mind each time they log in. As informative as it may be, this is an entertainment site to many (probably a majority) of its users.

Compared to the craziness of the rest of the internet (especially forums), I find TortoiseForum.org to be about as well moderated and managed as any I have seen.


(*I mean no offense to our resident "experts" that have helped me and others immensely, but nobody here has the credentials to be an expert and to my knowledge none have claimed to be. Not that I'd trust that claim made via internet forum anyway.)


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## Melly-n-shorty (Jan 23, 2013)

I think it is impossible for everyone to be happy. we are all different. What some like, some might not... I think the best answer to the problem is tolerance... we should all be more tolerant of each other, more tolerant of those who may not appreciate silly posts, and more tolerant of those who enjoy making silly posts. everyone is going to enjoy this forum in different ways.


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## Weldd (Jan 23, 2013)

This is a very interesting post. Will should leave if he finds an aspect of this forum irritating. "Love it or leave it." Somehow it is ok to suggest that a member leave when he is just expressing frustration (an emotion) in a respectful manner.

While Will may be in the minority when it comes to his lack of enjoyment of all of the "silly" posts, he is most certainly not alone. I can tolerate the 4000th post asking "What is the sticky white stuff in my tortoises' poop" just fine. However, being tricked into opening a post with a picture of a yellow tortoise squeeky toy is irritating to me.

I'm sure I'm just an old, cranky bast*&d, but I am disappointed at the rarity of "serious" posts on this forum nowadays. I lurked here for a long time before joining and I can say that it wasn't always like this. Perhaps we've discussed all of the serious issues regarding tortoise husbandry already. However, that seems unlikely.

Anyway, I guess that's enough for now. 

Sincerely, a different Will...




sibi said:


> If you are so disappointed with the quality of members posts, then perhaps there is some other forum that can quench your appetite. I don't mean this in a negative way,and I certainly don't want to sound offensive. I just don't read "silly" posts, and it may be why i can't see what you see. All I know is that many of us here totally enjoy the sharing of information and emotions when it's in reference to our torts. No doubt, more scientific minds like yours may find it challenging to read/respond to less scientific thinking, but that's something that goes with the territory. Trust me, your feeling on the subject is in the minority. And for that, I am sorry for you. I mean this in the most sincerest way.


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## MrJorgensen (Jan 23, 2013)

Let me explain my journey on this forum. Maybe it will help those that don't enjoy the silly comments understand the perspective of those that do.

I started looking on the forum prior to rescuing a tortoise. I knew I had the opportunity, and I wanted to research before taking on the commitment. Once I rescued the tortoise, I joined the forum to share pictures of my new acquisition and share the tortoise table I had made.

This allowed me to get feedback on how that looked, the substrate, lighting, etc. It was very valuable information. It helped me get a steady diet in place and know that I was providing my tortoise with the proper care he needed.

Once I felt comfortable taking care of him, I started sharing other ways the tortoise had impacted me. This included more pictures, home decor, or anything else related to tortoises. Not just the husbandry, but how tortoises were in all aspects of my life.

I kept the pattern going by sharing pictures of a new tortoise room for another adoptee, my new pancakes, and more and more ways that tortoises are a part of my life.

Until my tortoise is sick, the things I want to know have already been answered for me. And, if they get sick, I could probably search and find an opinion without posting about the current situation.

Thus, my posts tend to be on topics related to my tortoises, but nothing that is an emergency. If I could only post serious things, I'd be off the forum and search elsewhere for information.

I love this forum. I can read what others think and see how much their tortoises mean to them. To me, this isn't a science class. This is a forum where a bunch of tortoise owners can get together to share their experiences, pictures, successes, failures, advice, and all other ways that tortoises have affected their lives (even if it is a toy, Christmas decoration, or balloon animal).

I appreciate how helpful most of you are. The supportive comments to everyone are refreshing. The mods do a great job helping out newcomers and directing them to quality keepers, breeders, and sellers.

There are no right answers! That is life. We could debate opinions for eternity. But, nobody is right and nobody is wrong. Can't we all just get along?


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## Jacqui (Jan 23, 2013)

Weldd said:


> .
> but I am disappointed at the rarity of "serious" posts on this forum nowadays.




Different Will, 

Can you tell me what in your mind makes a serious post?


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## Cowboy_Ken (Jan 23, 2013)

Perhaps a section titled, â€œLong winded, argumentative posts that you may not want to bother reading all of"? This thread could be the first! Dang it, was I serious or sarcastic? Making facial expressions.


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## Team Gomberg (Jan 23, 2013)

I like when people post a thread title actually about what the thread content contains. 

The "balloon animal tortoise", i liked, cuz i knew what i would open to find.

A title like.. "Do you know this?", "oh wow", "should i?" Are ones i find myself debating over. Open it or not.. I like to know the topic to see if its applicable to me or helpful or if i can help them.

So i guess i find some peoples choices of the thread titles to be silly. But oh well.


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## MasterOogway (Jan 23, 2013)

Could there be a thread added under the section everything else & title it Just For Fun. That way those who want to enjoy the silly topics can & those that don't can ignore or those in between who don't mind the silly posts as long as they are ready for it can be prepared. Just trying to think of a solution so that everyone can find a place as it is a great forum that every can enjoy.


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## Weldd (Jan 23, 2013)

Jacqui, in terms of husbandry, I would use Kelly's posts (Tortadise) as great examples of "serious" posts. Especially the updates over time of the new facilities being built. Those are fantastic.

I also love Field study posts. Some of the South African reports were really great. I think the "other" Will may have even authored some of those.

Finally, breeder updates are great. I will never tire of pictures of hatchlings emerging from eggs but even better when people describe successes with rare species. I'm not sure if it was on this forum or shelled warriors but Dan's description of Chaco incubation was a real triumph.





Jacqui said:


> Weldd said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...




Perhaps within that section we could have a sub-section entitled "Frivolous responses which contribute nothing to the discussion".




Cowboy_Ken said:


> Perhaps a section titled, â€œLong winded, argumentative posts that you may not want to bother reading all of"? This thread could be the first! Dang it, was I serious or sarcastic? Making facial expressions.


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## Jacqui (Jan 23, 2013)

So Will (Weldd), what you consider as "serious" threads are the more advanced ones, am I understanding correctly? So what you would like to see is an area where we label it something like this (not suggesting those actual titles this is just to see what you would think of such a section):

*Advance tortoise threads*
This section is for only the more advance subjects and for the more experienced keepers. Posts should only be made to directly ask questions or share personal pertinent information. No joking posts or beginner type questions are allowed and will be deleted.

(subforums)
*Health
Breeding
species*


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## Weldd (Jan 23, 2013)

That would be fantastic...



Jacqui said:


> So Will (Weldd), what you consider as "serious" threads are the more advanced ones, am I understanding correctly? So what you would like to see is an area where we label it something like this (not suggesting those actual titles this is just to see what you would think of such a section):
> 
> *Advance tortoise threads*
> This section is for only the more advance subjects and for the more experienced keepers. Posts should only be made to directly ask questions or share personal pertinent information. No joking posts or beginner type questions are allowed and will be deleted.
> ...


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## Cowboy_Ken (Jan 23, 2013)

Perhaps within that section we could have a sub-section entitled "Frivolous responses which contribute nothing to the discussion".

[/QUOTE]

I concur.


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## Jacqui (Jan 23, 2013)

Okay then others what do you think? We are already working on changing some of our labeling and wording in our various sections. If this seems to be an ideal that folks could love with to perhaps help solve some of our issues, I will work up an actual labeling and present this to Josh.



Weldd said:


> That would be fantastic...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## wellington (Jan 23, 2013)

See, now too me, those are not serious post or threads. They are educational, interesting, and fun too read, and to view, but not serious in the sense I believe. The serious threads to me, are the ones where someone needs help with a sick tortoise, help getting the enclosure, diet, husbandry correct. Those are serious, because if not correct, a dead tortoise thread will soon follow. Hatchlings emerging from eggs is not serious, but I do love seeing them. Tortadise's enclosure updates are not serious. I love seeing and reading those too, but they are not serious to me. The Chaco incubation, would be serious to me, if I were ever going to hatch any myself, otherwise, it is not serious to me. Everyone's opinion on what's serious and what's funny or silly will always differ from the next. That's why we all need to remember this and let everyone pick and choose what threads or post they want to read and the ones they want to skip.


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## Jacqui (Jan 23, 2013)

wellington said:


> See, now too me, those are not serious post or threads. They are educational, interesting, and fun too read, and to view, but not serious in the sense I believe. The serious threads to me, are the ones where someone needs help with a sick tortoise, help getting the enclosure, diet, husbandry correct. Those are serious, because if not correct, a dead tortoise thread will soon follow. Hatchlings emerging from eggs is not serious, but I do love seeing them. Tortadise's enclosure updates are not serious. I love seeing and reading those too, but they are not serious to me. The Chaco incubation, would be serious to me, if I were ever going to hatch any myself, otherwise, it is not serious to me. Everyone's opinion on what's serious and what's funny or silly will always differ from the next. That's why we all need to remember this and let everyone pick and choose what threads or post they want to read and the ones they want to skip.



and that was exactly why I asked the question of Weldd as to what *he* meant by serious. Sometimes we need to stop and define terms to be sure we are all saying the same thing or seeing the same picture.


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## wellington (Jan 23, 2013)

Jacqui, I think that would be a great idea. Some days I don't want to do anything but read the funny threads. Just to have a good laugh or see some pics of others torts. Some days, I feel like reading up on more educational threads. The new sections and sub sections would make it easier for me to choose where I want to go, for the mood I'm in. I for yes I like the smiles too


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## sibi (Jan 23, 2013)

On the other hand, perhaps there can be a special section entitled, "6001 Scientific Discussions Only." In this way, those who want a more interesting discussion don't have to leave the forum, and can still be able to assist those who seek their advice/ help. I, for one, would find it to be a great lost to the forum if we can't come up with something for everyone here.




Jacqui said:


> So Will (Weldd), what you consider as "serious" threads are the more advanced ones, am I understanding correctly? So what you would like to see is an area where we label it something like this (not suggesting those actual titles this is just to see what you would think of such a RIGHT ON JACQUI!! That's exactly what I think will help keep some of our valuable members who are seeking more challenging topics.
> 
> *Advance tortoise threads*
> This section is for only the more advance subjects and for the more experienced keepers. Posts should only be made to directly ask questions or share personal pertinent information. No joking posts or beginner type questions are allowed and will be deleted.
> ...


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## wellington (Jan 23, 2013)

Sibi, you wouldn't be leaving the forum. It would be the place to post those more advanced threads.


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## sibi (Jan 23, 2013)

Now, my only concern would be if the more advanced members mind questions / concerns/comments from other members who wish to know/understand the issue better? What I'm trying to do here is have a little foresight here and try to nip a potential problem in the butt BEFORE it happens. There will be some members here that want to learn from the experts here. Would that pose a problem?


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## wellington (Jan 23, 2013)

sibi said:


> Now, my only concern would be if the more advanced members mind questions / concerns/comments from other members who wish to know/understand the issue better? What I'm trying to do here is have a little foresight here and try to nip a potential problem in the butt BEFORE it happens. There will be some members here that want to learn from the experts here. Would that pose a problem?



This section is for only the more advance subjects and for the more experienced keepers. Posts should only be made to directly ask questions or share personal pertinent information. No joking posts or beginner type questions are allowed and will be deleted.


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## sibi (Jan 23, 2013)

i laughter so hard I almost fell off my chair:-D:-D. You're so funny



wellington said:


> Sibi, you wouldn't be leaving the forum. It would be the place to post those more advanced threads.



You see, I can't spell "laughed" when I'm laughing.


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## Jacqui (Jan 23, 2013)

That is a valid question Sibi. The Mods are going to have to do a lot of policing these threads and the folks using them will need to give us heads up when something "not allowed" is posted. Threads and questions will be moved to the "normal" threads if they are deemed not appropriate. It's not going to be perfect and will be asking for judgement calls that may not make everybody happy. However, I think we can handle these issues better when we are talking of a very confined section rather then the entire forum.

Let's say the thread is about the make up of urates. A post like "my Russian is peeing these" or "why is my Russian having these" would not be allowed. A post asking for more detail or clearing up a question would be allowed.


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## sibi (Jan 23, 2013)

Yes, giving clear examples may help members to post questions in the right section. The part on "no beginners questions allowed" can be tricky. I can envision me asking, for instance, a question on avian influenza in torts. Not knowing technical terms and know-how, the question could be perceived as elementary and deleted or complained about. That could be a legitimate question, but perceived as a beginners question by the experts. While we want to satisfy the needs of some, it should be free from negative "elitist" elements. What do you think?



Jacqui said:


> That is a valid question Sibi. The Mods are going to have to do a lot of policing these threads and the folks using them will need to give us heads up when something "not allowed" is posted. Threads and questions will be moved to the "normal" threads if they are deemed not appropriate. It's not going to be perfect and will be asking for judgement calls that may not make everybody happy. However, I think we can handle these issues better when we are talking of a very confined section rather then the entire forum.
> 
> Let's say the thread is about the make up of urates. A post like "my Russian is peeing these" or "why is my Russian having these" would not be allowed. A post asking for more detail or clearing up a question would be allowed.


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## Jacqui (Jan 23, 2013)

Like I believe I said, if a question is posted in the wrong area it will be moved. Just as in if a thread posted in one of the "normal" threads becomes something "special" (for lack of a better term) it could also be moved to the new section. An example would be just this week in the adoption section there was a cherryhead offered. That thread developed into something more as Kelly got the animal and went into details about her care, so I moved it to the redfoot section so more folks would see it. A question that is asked and deemed "beginner" will not be allowed to be publically critized, it will just be silently moved.

Sibi not knowing big words is not a sign of a person being a beginner or an experienced person. I don't consider myself a beginner, but I also do not use fancy words nor do I often understand some of those indepth posts some members make. I think we can make it work.

There will be a lot of learning as the section grows on seeing how things work. There would be mandatory post counts or anything to post in the new section either.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 23, 2013)

I think I proposed something to this effect a few months ago and I was shot down. I suggested we have an invitation only sub forum, where the "experts" would be invited to join and new keepers would not be allowed. This would eliminate all the "my baby is sick" "my baby won't open his eyes", etc. posts and the more expert keepers would be able to talk to each other and share experiances/books/articles with each other but not have to read through the long list of repeated questions.


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## wellington (Jan 23, 2013)

Yvonne, would the uninvited members be able to read it? I wouldn't have a problem with that either, as long as the rest of us can still see and read through it.


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## sibi (Jan 23, 2013)

Well, I don't envy your job. There may be a few kinks in the beginning, but in the end, it will all work out. So that I'm clear on this, the mods will determine what are appropriate questions and comments on the topics, right? I'm so glad that we have you all


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 23, 2013)

This all sounds good in theory, and Yvonne I like your idea of "invitation-only" but there would be a big problem...Where does one draw the line as to what qualify's as an "expert" to be invited, and what does not? I would see some serious arguments breaking out; members being insulted they weren't invited. It just seems like it would turn quite offensive...Now, I do believe, if something like this were to be done, there would have to be a way to exclude the new members, asking the questions no one wants to hear a million times. The silly would obviously be sorted out, though I doubt anyone would post such things in such a "serious" element anyways.
I just see it being very difficult to draw the line of invitation. Just thinking aloud here. Besides that, I like the idea of an "Advanced Discussion" forum.

Wellington,
I think anyone would have to be able to read it, so that everyone may benefit from it.


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## Jacqui (Jan 23, 2013)

emysemys said:


> I think I proposed something to this effect a few months ago and I was shot down. I suggested we have an invitation only sub forum, where the "experts" would be invited to join and new keepers would not be allowed. This would eliminate all the "my baby is sick" "my baby won't open his eyes", etc. posts and the more expert keepers would be able to talk to each other and share experiances/books/articles with each other but not have to read through the long list of repeated questions.



As was my problem before with that plan, you create groups within our forum. How do we choose who can use this forum? By post count so Holiwally can come in and make 100 mindless posts and get in, but Suziestromoni joins today but is a well known experienced tortoise keeper can't? Or do we say breeders only? So that means the person who bought a tortoise yesterday and it laid an egg can get in, but Josepuddingtane who has kept tortoises forever can't because he does not breed his animals? 

Then there is why are we keeping some folks from growing and learning by keeping this part private?

Plus if we are only allowing "experts" to use this area, I can't think of a single person who is an "expert" in this forum. Experienced, yes, experts I am sorry I don't think they exist with tortoises.




wellington said:


> Yvonne, would the uninvited members be able to read it? I wouldn't have a problem with that either, as long as the rest of us can still see and read through it.



So you would be happy not being able to ask pointed on topic questions?


Earlier, the term "elitist" was thrown around. I for one, would view a closed members only section as having elitist members.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 23, 2013)

No, it would be a whole separate forum and no one but the members would be able to see it. For all we know, it might be going on right now and none of us were invited!


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 23, 2013)

A whole separate forum is a very interesting idea, but I still thing everyone NEEDS to see it. A forum where experts - or experienced in Jacquis definition - post would be very beneficial to read...Thus everyone needs to be able to read it. 
The post count thing, as Jacqui said, would NEVER work. It would need to be up to you moderators to choose who you think is "experienced" enough to be invited. Now there is where I do not envy you...Because you would possibly become hated by many. Its a party; everyone gets insulted when they aren't invited.


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## Jacqui (Jan 23, 2013)

The sad thing is, it sells our members and our future members short in my mind. Somebody may not have any tortoise experience but know boat loads of information on health issues for example. Of somebody who may have no experience may question something an "experienced" person wrote that could turn on the entire lightbulb of a new discovery for that experienced person. I am sorry, but experienced keepers and super educated members can often still learn a thing or two from a new person who has pratical thoughts.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 23, 2013)

Jacqui said:


> The sad thing is, it sells our members and our future members short in my mind. Somebody may not have any tortoise experience but know boat loads of information on health issues for example. Of somebody who may have no experience may question something an "experienced" person wrote that could turn on the entire lightbulb of a new discovery for that experienced person. I am sorry, but experienced keepers and super educated members can often still learn a thing or two from a new person who has pratical thoughts.



All very true, but its not as if these members could not still post in the regular forms. Eventually, someone will learn how much that individual knows, somebody will tell one of you, and one of you can invite them there. Thats just the way I see it. Its not as if experienced/expert/boat-loads-of-information type people can't still post in the general forums.


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## Jacqui (Jan 23, 2013)

I just know I for one could not make the choices who gets in and who does not, plus I would not want to be a part of a forum who treated it's members unequally.


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## wellington (Jan 23, 2013)

I just figured Jacqui, if I had a question, I would ask it in the general forum. If I couldn't get it answered by someone that was in the expert forum, then I would pm one of them. However, now that you got me thinking about it. I really like the forum just the way it is. Now I'm not sure why one complainer is stirring all this up. It is really an easy fix. Skip the threads/post that you don't want to read. In just a couple words, one can actually determine if one wants to finish reading it or not. Usually silly post aren't made on more serious Threads. Most made fun of the "tea party" thread, because they thought it was a ridiculous question. Until of course, someone thought more about the benefits of tea, and posted a more serious, real post about the benefits it might have. I say, save the hassle and keep the forum just the way it is. It's been working for all these years. Now because of one or two complaints, all this


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## sibi (Jan 23, 2013)

This doesn't have to be that complicated. Jacqui has many good points about who would be qualified to be invited. It can't be about #of posts, or just breeders, or years with the forum. The only thing i see as viable is the topic and question/comments posed. Terminology or the know-how doesn't have to be a requirement, but the question /comments should be at least an attempt to understand the topic on point. That relieves the mods from having to have knowledge of the subject material being discussed. I mean, unless all the mods have Phds in the specified field, no one is going to have all the knowledge it will take to justify the removal of a members question/comments. This is not only silly, but insane. Just look at the question, make the standards known to the experts being invited, keep it open, and see it work. Like Jacqui stated before, having a select few create a division within the forum is "elitism" no matter how you dress it.


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## Angi (Jan 23, 2013)

I think it is not only a rude idea, but would keep information from a person of less knowledge. Who is to say if a NON expert could learn from a thread? It seems the newest members want to read the most. Just my oppinion


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## MasterOogway (Jan 23, 2013)

Angi said:


> I think it is not only a rude idea, but would keep information from a person of less knowledge. Who is to say if a NON expert could learn from a thread? It seems the newest members want to read the most. Just my oppinion



I agree. Maybe you should just close the forum to new members if it such a burden to answer questions. Leave it public and they can search away.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Jan 23, 2013)

And then there are those such as I who may just parrot what a respected member says and I gain credibility from that.


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## LeopardTortLover (Jan 23, 2013)

I haven't read every single reply to this thread, so I obviously don't know everything that has been said. But I do think its important to remember that this forum is about TORTOISES. Helping humans to help their animals. And if along the way things get a bit "silly" and things get muddled up, it it a massive deal? Can we not just avoid the threads we arent particularly interested in and focus on what we are? Its about helping our animals have a better life in captivity at the end of the day... the silly way or not.

And if people want to share tortoise related stories and photos to enlighten others, why not? This is my opinion anyway 
Oh dear, I shouldn't have put a smiley - i have to be serious. Joking


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## jaizei (Jan 23, 2013)

wellington said:


> I just figured Jacqui, if I had a question, I would ask it in the general forum. If I couldn't get it answered by someone that was in the expert forum, then I would pm one of them. However, now that you got me thinking about it. I really like the forum just the way it is. Now I'm not sure why one complainer is stirring all this up. It is really an easy fix. Skip the threads/post that you don't want to read. In just a couple words, one can actually determine if one wants to finish reading it or not. Usually silly post aren't made on more serious Threads. Most made fun of the "tea party" thread, because they thought it was a ridiculous question. Until of course, someone thought more about the benefits of tea, and posted a more serious, real post about the benefits it might have. I say, save the hassle and keep the forum just the way it is. It's been working for all these years. Now because of one or two complaints, all this



Likewise, everyone who doesn't like the complaining could have ignored this thread.

But you didn't.

See how that works. 

You're free to share your opinion, as long as it agrees with mine.







Cowboy_Ken said:


> And then there are those such as I who may just parrot what a respected member says and I gain credibility from that.



It is unfortunate how true this notion often is, in general.


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## sibi (Jan 23, 2013)

But experience has to count for something. You can have a member join who just got out of college with a Ph.D. in Biology, and knows a ton of things about the Anatomy of reptiles, but had never experienced a tortoise having a prolapse, this member would be part of that elite group, but someone who has treated sick and deformed tortoises for years can't because he hasn't the slightest idea what the new studies in the journal of modern "LaLa" says about LaLas. Get my point? It has to be open, the "experts" have to understand the rules of inclusion, except when a member is off the topic, and allow all members to be equal and free to learn. If that changes, this forum changes, and many will really leave.



Cowboy_Ken said:


> And then there are those such as I who may just parrot what a respected member says and I gain credibility from that.


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## LeopardTortLover (Jan 23, 2013)

I would feel incredibly nervous about asking a question in this "expert" thread, even if it was a perfectly acceptable question about a scientific topic (or whatever the post may be about) that may spark a lightbulb for the expert. And I probably wouldn't ask it. On the other hand - I could just ignore this thread if I wanted to - and stick to the usual pages I join in with. As I do how the forum is at the moment.

I can see both pros and cons to the idea, but as somebody previously said, has the forum not been working fine for years? A lot of opinions would need to be considered before starting the idea - which I'm sure will be accounted for if it goes ahead. Maybe a vote? how many people want the forum to change a little V who doesnt want it to change. But even this would probably cause another issue. Not everybody will always be happy.


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## wellington (Jan 23, 2013)

It might be easier to make a "Silly" section. All the wooden pancake tortoise pictures and the rubber tort pics, etc, etc, could be posted there. Then, everyone would know where to post the not a real tortoise, tortoise stuff. I really don't see that much silliness going on within a real, "serious" thread, and i'v been a member longer then the post of this thread. If I had to remember back on all the threads I have read. I could maybe come up with, well not even a handful. Along with some of the threads, that are not titled silly, but then is, such as the pancake thread, which btw, i liked, there are some threads that are titled silly and they aren't. I don't like that. I'm wanting a laugh, find a funny thread title, just too open it and its boring yada yada yada. I'm voting to leave the forum the way it is and has worked for the 5 years its been around. There's always going to be the nay sayers, the whiners, the clowns and the B's. You will never, ever, make everyone happy. The majority seems to be happy with the way it is, majority should win   Yes, I like the smiles


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## MasterOogway (Jan 23, 2013)

wellington said:


> It might be easier to make a "Silly" section. All the wooden pancake tortoise pictures and the rubber tort pics, etc, etc, could be posted there. Then, everyone would know where to post the not a real tortoise, tortoise stuff. I really don't see that much silliness going on within a real, "serious" thread, and i'v been a member longer then the post of this thread. If I had to remember back on all the threads I have read. I could maybe come up with, well not even a handful. Along with some of the threads, that are not titled silly, but then is, such as the pancake thread, which btw, i liked, there are some threads that are titled silly and they aren't. I don't like that. I'm wanting a laugh, find a funny thread title, just too open it and its boring yada yada yada. I'm voting to leave the forum the way it is and has worked for the 5 years its been around. There's always going to be the nay sayers, the whiners, the clowns and the B's. You will never, ever, make everyone happy. The majority seems to be happy with the way it is, majority should win   Yes, I like the smiles



I agree and thanks for always be willing to help everyone especially us newbies to the tortoise world who want the best for our torts


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## taytay3391 (Jan 24, 2013)

And if you do this "members only" idea what happens to those of us that just float to read and not get involved in this bs?


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## mctlong (Jan 24, 2013)

sibi said:


> But experience has to count for something. You can have a member join who just got out of college with a Ph.D. in Biology, and knows a ton of things about the Anatomy of reptiles, but had never experienced a tortoise having a prolapse, this member would be part of that elite group, but someone who has treated sick and deformed tortoises for years can't because he hasn't the slightest idea what the new studies in the journal of modern "LaLa" says about LaLas. Get my point? It has to be open, the "experts" have to understand the rules of inclusion, except when a member is off the topic, and allow all members to be equal and free to learn. If that changes, this forum changes, and many will really leave.




I would be tempted to leave if we started excluding members from reading and posting in specific threads. I'm having trouble seeing a fair and equitable way to do this. Who would determine whose in and whose out and how do you prevent that person or persons from just choosing based on personal ties rather than professional credentials? What determines who is advanced enough to join this elite fraternity?

In order for this to work (if thats even a possibility), we would need some solid, objective criteria for determining membership. It cannot be based on some master chooser's subjective opinion on whether or not someone else is an expert. What would the criteria be for membership? Number of posts? Years on TFO? Advanced degree in biology, veterinary science, or related field? Number of past publications in professional (peer-reviewed) journals? What is a fair way of choosing some and discluding others?


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## sibi (Jan 24, 2013)

That's exactly my point, and a few posts back this was addressed over and over. The moderators will determine if a comment or question fits the"beginners" level. The problem with that is some of the things you and I stated above. In addition, this puts a tremendous pressure on the moderators because they will have to have some knowledge of the subject matter in order to determine which questions are appropriate and which ones aren't. But, I think there is a sliver of hope. Without posing restrictions on anyone participating, there can be posts that are "advanced," and most members will just follow the discussion w/o commenting. Those that decide to add a comment or question can't hijack the discussion with questions or comments that are clearly unrelated. It could work, and it satisfies the needs of the many rather than the few.



mctlong said:


> sibi said:
> 
> 
> > But experience has to count for something. You can have a member join who just got out of college with a Ph.D. in Biology, and knows a ton of things about the Anatomy of reptiles, but had never experienced a tortoise having a prolapse, this member would be part of that elite group, but someone who has treated sick and deformed tortoises for years can't because he hasn't the slightest idea what the new studies in the journal of modern "LaLa" says about LaLas. Get my point? It has to be open, the "experts" have to understand the rules of inclusion, except when a member is off the topic, and allow all members to be equal and free to learn. If that changes, this forum changes, and many will really leave.
> ...


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## Yvonne G (Jan 24, 2013)

Well, its not worth discussing because its not going to happen. The other moderators and Josh had the same concerns as you all and have decided to not have the other forum.


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## lovelyrosepetal (Jan 24, 2013)

I like the idea of an advanced section. I would not limit it to who can participate but would let the members decide if they are comfortable with the subject matter. I rarely post anymore because I don't have a lot of knowledge on the subjects being discussed but I think that it would be informative to be able to read more advanced topics about tortoise care. I think it is a good idea so that more members participate and more knowledge is shared.

I also agree with Wellington, I haven't seen a lot of silly posts but the ones that are don't bother me.


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## Vegasarah (Jan 24, 2013)

Cowboy_Ken said:


> Perhaps a section titled, â€œLong winded, argumentative posts that you may not want to bother reading all of"? This thread could be the first! Dang it, was I serious or sarcastic? Making facial expressions.



I really like you, Ken. You crack me up. I literally laughed out loud at this.


I really love this forum, I'm part of a few reptile forums, and I can say that I think this one is really great. I've been known to get into stupid arguments with people once in a while on there, but never on here. Because for the most part people on here are friendlier! Everyone keeps it pretty cool, not too many arguments or that sort of thing. And so many people here, even though they would deny it, really are EXPERTS. I mean, it just doesn't get much better than that. Everyone here has helped me so much in the past, and I enjoy taking that knowledge and turning it around and telling it to new users who faced the same problems that I did early on in my tortoise keeping.

I do agree a little bit with OP, sometimes someone really is trying to be serious or really needs help and all they get is "omg cute!". When all they wanted was to learn about people giving their tortoises tea to drink. And I think that sometimes the 'silliness' can dissuade people from posting on it because it's gotten a little full of nonsense, so they leave rather than adding something constructive.

I don't post too much on here, but I constantly use the search and am learning so many new things every day about torts. Being in school to become a vet specializing in reptiles, I understand the NEED for the knowledge that is presented here by some of the keepers. There is stuff on here that no vet student will ever learn out of a text book and will never be able to use on their patients. That's why I'm here, and to be honest, the 'balloon animal' stuff does get old.

Has anyone of the mods thought about creating an 'advanced discussions' forum? That could give the people that are more geared towards science a place to be happy and to get into scientific discussions about urates and their chemical compounds. I'm part of another forum that does this (much smaller, though) and the mods can move some of the 'general' stuff to advanced if the OP wants it to be. And sometimes they also move things out of 'advanced' and into 'general' if they deem it to be more, well, general.

Just a thought, I know it works pretty well with another forum I'm part of! 


And, yet again, my phone apparently thought this discussion ended on page six... looks like this advanced discussion thing is already in the works lol. Sorry! Do mods have the power to move threads into the proper place and then post "This thread has been moved to the blah blah blah forum, it can be viewed here: *post link*"? I know you guys don't have time to sit there and do that sort of thing, of course, but maybe if the OP was able to do so easily we could say "Hey, OP, I think this thread would do better in this section!" and then they could go back and move it and do their own "This has been moved" thing?..... does that make any sense at all? I'm not good at expressing what I'm thinking into typed words, sorry.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Jan 24, 2013)

So I see this forum as a community. Being active in a community to me means sharing some of my ness as well receiving what the ness is of others in the community. As with any community, I won't get along with some, and some won't get along with me. That's a great thing about being an individual in a community, you can choose. We do a lot of gatherings at my house during the summer months and we encourage people to bring newbies to these gatherings because every now and then we find a keeper. Some come back that we don't care for and although they don't get told to leave, (after all, someone likes them) they don't get the two ply in the bathroom. I don't waste my time with those I don't care for because I feel it's more important to spend my time with those I do. 
I deal with the forum in the same manner.


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## sibi (Jan 24, 2013)

Vegasarah, I wish you well in your career choice as a future vet...we can really use someone like you. And, Ken, you all can forget about an Advanced topic forum because Yvonne (one of our mods) said it just isn't going to happen; so, I guess this discussion is a moot point. It would've been nice to see if it would've worked.


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## Yellow Turtle (Jan 24, 2013)

Will, I just thought that a forum fully dedicated to more serious talk of tortoise wouldn't work. Most of the keepers out there, including me is either new, or people who need another thing outside their daily routines. In fact, I was typing this over my lunch right now.

I've seen another forum which's aimed to have more serious talk about tortoise and they just don't do well. They've got many members from this forum as well, but somehow people prefer to stick to TFO where they can easily communicate and at the same time posting some silly thoughts or a light topic on their pets or daily life.

I also prefer not so see too many wrong section posts or see too many posts regarding white stuffs in the poo, but then I remember the time when I just started caring for my first torts and never know that caresheets even exist in the world 

Finally, I hope you stick with this forum even with all the silliness here. It's great to see people with more experienced and knowledge sharing the information to others. And yes I do agree that TFO lacks vets posting especially on the health section. I really wish to see more of them posting here.


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## Jacqui (Jan 25, 2013)

Vegasarah said:


> And, yet again, my phone apparently thought this discussion ended on page six... looks like this advanced discussion thing is already in the works lol. Sorry! Do mods have the power to move threads into the proper place and then post "This thread has been moved to the blah blah blah forum, it can be viewed here: *post link*"? I know you guys don't have time to sit there and do that sort of thing, of course, but maybe if the OP was able to do so easily we could say "Hey, OP, I think this thread would do better in this section!" and then they could go back and move it and do their own "This has been moved" thing?..... does that make any sense at all? I'm not good at expressing what I'm thinking into typed words, sorry.



We move things and split threads all the time in here. When something is moved, we choose how many days to show it as moved (normally that is two days we choose). The forum then takes you to the new place if you click on the thread. I would guess on an average day we do like 25 perhaps more such moves.




sibi said:


> Vegasarah, I wish you well in your career choice as a future vet...we can really use someone like you. And, Ken, you all can forget about an Advanced topic forum because Yvonne (one of our mods) said it just isn't going to happen; so, I guess this discussion is a moot point. It would've been nice to see if it would've worked.



It's not moot.


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## mctlong (Jan 25, 2013)

Was the concept of the advanced topics thrown out or just the invitation-only part?


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## Jacqui (Jan 25, 2013)

mctlong said:


> Was the concept of the advanced topics thrown out or just the invitation-only part?



It was the invitational part mostly as I recall. I know I fight very hard against those kinds of things. That's why I think if I go in requesting the section as I outlined in an earlier post in this thread, I can get it to happen.


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## mctlong (Jan 25, 2013)

Jacqui said:


> mctlong said:
> 
> 
> > Was the concept of the advanced topics thrown out or just the invitation-only part?
> ...



Good. I think it would be nice to see a section with more advanced topics, given that everyone has equal access.


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## Yellow Turtle (Jan 25, 2013)

mctlong said:


> Good. I think it would be nice to see a section with more advanced topics, given that everyone has equal access.



Well I have it's a good thing, the moderators can set some posting rules and delete all things not following those rules.


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## harris (Jan 25, 2013)

Would this proposed section even be necessary if...........

Members with extremely limited FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE with tortoises, like having only kept a single species, sit back and allow the people with experience answer the questions for a specific species? 

I couldn't agree more with the comments that this forum is great. I'm astounded how much it has grown from even when I signed on. What was once in 3rd place for chelonian forums is now # 1 I believe!


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 25, 2013)

harris said:


> Would this proposed section even be necessary if...........
> 
> Members with extremely limited FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE with tortoises, like having only kept a single species, sit back and allow the people with experience answer the questions for a specific species?
> 
> I couldn't agree more with the comments that this forum is great. I'm astounded how much it has grown from even when I signed on. What was once in 3rd place for chelonian forums is now # 1 I believe!



You would define "FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE" as something other then only keeping a single species? I only currently keep 2; the number of species kept by somebody has nothing to do with their experience.
And the way for many to learn is to answer the questions themselves...I'm pretty sure nobody is going to do what your asking, and they will become very insulted if you do.


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## sibi (Jan 25, 2013)

I'm glad to hear it's not a moot point because when Yvonne post that it wasn't going to happen, she didn't mention what wasn't going to happen. Glad you cleared that up and that there and will be advanced topics after all.



Jacqui said:


> Vegasarah said:
> 
> 
> > And, yet again, my phone apparently thought this discussion ended on page six... looks like this advanced discussion thing is already in the works lol. Sorry! Do mods have the power to move threads into the proper place and then post "This thread has been moved to the blah blah blah forum, it can be viewed here: *post link*"? I know you guys don't have time to sit there and do that sort of thing, of course, but maybe if the OP was able to do so easily we could say "Hey, OP, I think this thread would do better in this section!" and then they could go back and move it and do their own "This has been moved" thing?..... does that make any sense at all? I'm not good at expressing what I'm thinking into typed words, sorry.
> ...


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 25, 2013)

Hi,

It is interesting to see how this has moved forward.

I have never in any way shape or form suggested any kind forced or facilitated segregation of members. Â I do not think any posts should be dis-cluded, other than what isÂ repeatedlyÂ expressed by the mods, such as personalÂ attacksÂ  etc.Â 

I will restate what I posted on the very first post. Â Posts should be "giggle" or "Chelonian Herpetology". Â I think, though am not a programmer, that it would be a simple thing for all who sign to be made aware of a new feature. Â That new feature would be two submit button's not just one at the end of whatever you write.

One Submit button would be "submit-giggle", the other would be "submit-chelonian herpetology" Â the colored bar across each post would be one color for giggle, and one color for CH. Â Right now that color is green on my computer.

Leave this up to the poster which submit key to use. Â If someone wants to post a thread that is 'CH" and it's a plastic yellow turtle, then say after so many such errors, they would be giving a 'time-out' for a week or so. Â 

That way Josh can keep the $$ rolling in with anÂ inflatedÂ user count, and the mods are not more burdened.

ThereÂ alreadyÂ is/was some sort of 'like' button, as best as I can tell, by how many gold stars are associated with some users. Â I do not see this forum as a 'social network' in the facebook sense, but more like linked-in where it is overall based, not on profession, but interest.

Maybe for all those who are lacking substance for a post that has value* Â and feel a 'need' to post a picture of a plastic turtle- as if it were indeed a turtle, there could be yet anotherÂ categoryÂ called, images of fake (faux) turtles. Â Or maybe even "mock turtles" I think most people know what a mock turtle is.

That might over time be a really cool category. Â I can see the biggest contributor of such sought out for a late night hosted variety show with a collection of potato chips, crackers, and bits of dried bread, that all are formed in the shape of a turtle. Â At one time this kind of thing was a ratings booster for Johnny Carson, the lady with the potato chips that looked like president's busts, or the collection of moldy bread with the Virgin Mary etc.

Maybe off topic chat needs a subform called â€œhuman interestâ€ in turtles where the ballon turtle can be shared as a learning mechanism for the autistic, then it seems to me the topic is education, not so much turtle husbandry or turtle conservation.

So, in one of theÂ initialÂ threads I used as an example where silly andÂ seriousÂ were mingled, where someone seeking information about tea. Â The thread would retain all the posts it has now, but some would have the 'giggle' post color bar across the top, while others would have the "CH" color in the bar at the top of that post within that thread. Â And again those designations -> colors would have been self selected by the poster.

I would further suggest that when one users clicks on the name of another to send a PM etc. Â that the ratio, or post count of each of these two kinds of post be there as well, illustrating that forum membersÂ totalÂ type of contribution. Right now I see a place for posts and threads.

It is a fact of nature that different behaviors create self segregation within a population when those in that population are given the venue to differentiate. This way the mods got no more work, again Josh keeps hisÂ inflatedÂ user count up and advert $$ rolling in, all with just a wee bit of the programming.

Another interesting idea floated here is that there are or not experts. Â There are indeed experts here, it depends greatly on how you want to define that term "expert". Â A folk definition of 'expert' was when youÂ traveledÂ from one community to another to seek knowledge about something that all the locals could not answer. Â This is pre -wired or -wireless communication.Â 

Well now the community is global with the internet. Â I can tell you withÂ greatÂ validity the world authorities on Pallas cats areÂ pastoralists in Mongolia. They know the ecology of that cat very well, that information became global when scientists gave thoseÂ pastoralistsÂ satelliteÂ able laptops, and they could communicate with zookeepers seeking better husbandry of those cats.

I have found breeders of softshell turtles inside national parks, that were completely unknown to that park's authorities, yet who had internet access to sell their crop toÂ restaurants. Â In that case the on-foot community was at a loss but the global community worked well.

So an expert is someone who has knowledge you seek. The quality of that knowledge is subject to a better expert. If there is no better knowledge to be had, of what is known, then you have consulted the best expert, and at that point it is up to you to creat new knolwledge or be happy with the status quo. 

FWIW I have sought the inclusion of people I look to as experts to join this forum, they lurk from outside, and turn away. Â The feedback I got was not the multitude of people seeking to understand what urates were. Â It was based on â€œturtle tea partyâ€ type posts but not for those kind of posts being here at all, but for those posts being mixed in with a real question. Â In short, it was expressed that it was disrespectful of the initial inquiry. Â In that I would agree.

I know all my dinner will be mixed in my stomach, but I don't want my peas, mashed potatoes, lamb chop, and strawberry pie in one mouthful. Sure I can swirl my tongue around and get the individual flavors, but I don't want to have to do that.

Well, if someone declares their own post as giggle or CH, I think that would be a good move to having at least the strawberry pie ala mode seperate from the lamb chop and mashed potatoes. I know that sounds like the wrong order, but eat dessert first.

Will

*Value would be a restatement of a prior postÂ pertinentÂ to a current question, new points of view on the topic, redirections to other sources that answer aÂ questionÂ - pretty much that which moves a live/real animal interest forward.


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## sibi (Jan 25, 2013)

You see, the moment someone tries to set a requirement for asking questions, the problem begins. Even less experienced owners should be able to contribute something if they want.
[/quote]


> harris said:
> 
> 
> > Would this proposed section even be necessary if...........
> ...


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## harris (Jan 25, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> harris said:
> 
> 
> > Would this proposed section even be necessary if...........
> ...



If I have issues or questions about my Mee's, I would prefer to have them answered by someone having experience with this species. Not sure how that can be construed as offensive.


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## CtTortoiseMom (Jan 25, 2013)

mctlong said:


> harris said:
> 
> 
> > Just delete the smiley icons and call it a day. That's really the only silliness I've noticed. Some people can't type a sentence without inserting one.
> ...





Will said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is interesting to see how this has moved forward.
> 
> ...



And still not a one therious thinetific thread. I did see a breeding question answered by a breeder. Eureka the forum works! Thanks for the Tortoise forum version of a rorschach test.


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## Shannon and Jason (Jan 25, 2013)

I have read this "Debate" and all I have to say is Bless ya'lls hearts.


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## luvpetz27 (Jan 25, 2013)

Shannon and Jason said:


> I have read this "Debate" and all I have to say is Bless ya'lls hearts.



ditto .......oops, sorry about the smiley face! ha


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## harris (Jan 25, 2013)

luvpetz27 said:


> Shannon and Jason said:
> 
> 
> > I have read this "Debate" and all I have to say is Bless ya'lls hearts.
> ...




Gaaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!!!!! I have no prejudice towards the smiley faces! Just the way they're used at times. Like after every. Single. Sentence.


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## DrewsLife727 (Jan 25, 2013)

Will said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is interesting to see how this has moved forward.
> 
> ...



I apologize if my freakin toy tortoise offended you


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## jaizei (Jan 25, 2013)

harris said:


> RedfootsRule said:
> 
> 
> > harris said:
> ...




You hit the nail on the head. I do not think it is too much to ask that a person giving advice actually have experience with that particular species.


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## CtTortoiseMom (Jan 25, 2013)

Will, I think you might be right about experts lurking and not having an outlet. So, why not just post a thread worthy of these expert's opinions and see who joins the thread. You obviously have a lot to offer, I just don't understand why you feel you have to change all of our forum to do so. You could exemplify a real change but you are too hung up on the fact that because some people post silly thread's this forum is beneath you.


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## Jacqui (Jan 25, 2013)

jaizei said:


> harris said:
> 
> 
> > If I have issues or questions about my Mee's, I would prefer to have them answered by someone having experience with this species. Not sure how that can be construed as offensive.
> ...



Both Harris and Jaizei can you tell me how you would define experience with a species? 

Let's take Mee since they were brought up. Who can answer a question on them in your opinions:

Person A) I just bought a Mee last week.

Person B) I have owned several for over a year.

Person C) I have successfully had eggs/hatchlings, but only have had the adults a year.

Person D) I have had eggs/hatchlings and adults for over a year.

Person E) I have never had Mee, but I have kept other "like" species for years.

Person F) I am well read on Mee, but can not own a tortoise due to where I live.


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## luvpetz27 (Jan 25, 2013)

harris said:


> luvpetz27 said:
> 
> 
> > Shannon and Jason said:
> ...



Well, I am trying to cut down.....


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## BowandWalter (Jan 25, 2013)

I come to this forum because it's funny, it's homey, I know about the people here. I've seen pictures of their pets, even their children. Whenever I feel like I miss home I can come here and feel like I'm visiting extended family. 

My belief is that all these tortoise geniuses, should understand English enough to avoid these threads. If you don't want to see pictures of Drew's cute rubber tortoise don't look at it, though the name on that one was rather sneaky. As your scrolling along with your all your pomp and your monocled eye happens to fall upon a silly thread labeled something equally silly, don't make eye contact, that's what it wants. Just keep scrolling as you perspire in a nervous manner about that silly thread waving and dancing with a tea cosy on its head.


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## EricIvins (Jan 27, 2013)

The way I see it......There are three types of members in this forum -

1 - The person that owns 1 or 2 Tortoises and comes to this forum as a "Pet" owner who like to talk about "Pet" things

2 - The person who is a serious Tortoise keeper, that has kept or is keeping many species and does it "scientifically"

3 - The self proclaimed expert who owns 1 or 2 Tortoises, but posts regurgitated information on threads they shouldn't be participating in


Number 1 and 2 will never see things on the same level, which inheritantly causes a problem. Number 3 just causes problems either way. The problem with this forum is that there are too many 1 and 3s, and not enough 2s. They were here at one time, but many just don't want to deal with the constant drama and the know it alls anymore........I know I haven't participated like I used to either.......


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## bigred (Jan 27, 2013)

People are here for different reasons, EVERYONE at one time was new at keeping tortoises. The things that bother some wont bother others, if you open a thread and dont like it = close it. Should only take 5 seconds then move on to next


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## wellington (Jan 27, 2013)

EricIvins said:


> The way I see it......There are three types of members in this forum -
> 
> 1 - The person that owns 1 or 2 Tortoises and comes to this forum as a "Pet" owner who like to talk about "Pet" things
> 
> ...



I fit into,the number 1 and 3 category. Except I am no self proclaimed expert. I personally don't think anyone on here tries to call themself an expert if they aren't. I only try to pass on the information that I learned here onto others. In fact, that is what most members have done. Most of the info passed on to others is, how you call it, regurgitated information. If you didn't do an experiment or study all on your own, but read a book, seen a lecture, or read someone's thread, then it's regurgitated information. I just try to help others, as I have been helped. If its a serious problem I am trying to help someone with, I try to always remember to say if I have that species or not, or that I have read in the forum that this is what other members have done. I don't try to fool anyone. I push Toms threads on raising sullys and Leo's and have done so from the beginning. I have never tried to claim it was my experience and when someone mistook me as the author of Toms threads, i quickly corrected them. I have also been thank by Tom for Inserting his threads into my signature and for passing (regurgitating) them along. If someone thanks me for my experience, I quickly let them know, that I am just passing on what I have learned from this forum. That I am not an expert or whatever word they may use. In fact, I would say I learned more from the regular members, that probably fit under cat. 1 and 3 with a little cat. 2 in them, but don't need to act like they are better then everyone else. Too much of your number 2 cat. I don't think is what has made this forum what it is. The majority don't understand the scientific mumble jumble or feels its more then they need to get into. Not that it's not something some members wouldn't like. It's nice to have those threads. Just as much as its nice to have the silly threads. I would say for most of us, we just want to learn the best way to take care of our torts, the best diets there is, get a few opinions on a problem we might have of just talk tort. I think a lot of the older more experienced members aren't joining in as much, is either forum burn out, as I believe Jacqui mentioned and also the fact that no one tries looking up the answer before posting their question. Just about every question being asked as been answered, but no one takes the time to look them up. Most of us probably did it too, when we were new, but it does jerk a little on the nerves. Sometimes the same question will be in a thread right along side the new thread asking the same question, ugh. The more experienced don't want to answer those over and over again and thats what they have pass on to others to be able to do. it takes all kinds to make the world what it is. Why can't it be the same here ? It's just too simple to pass up the threads you don't want to read. That's what I do to the scientific threads.


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## Laurie (Jan 27, 2013)

bigred said:


> People are here for different reasons, EVERYONE at one time was new at keeping tortoises. The things that bother some wont bother others, if you open a thread and dont like it = close it. Should only take 5 seconds then move on to next



I agree with this, I know in a matter of seconds if I want to read a thread or close it. It's no big deal to me.


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## sibi (Jan 27, 2013)

Everyone 's attitude should be like yours regardless of expertise or lack thereof. The humbleness of your response, Barb, is refreshing and I believe reflects the majority of our member's sentiments. Thank you for your responded.

[/code]

```
[quote='wellington']
[quote='EricIvins']
The way I see it......There are three types of members in this forum -

1 - The person that owns 1 or 2 Tortoises and comes to this forum as a "Pet" owner who like to talk about "Pet" things

2 - The person who is a serious Tortoise keeper, that has kept or is keeping many species and does it "scientifically"

3 - The self proclaimed expert who owns 1 or 2 Tortoises, but posts regurgitated information on threads they shouldn't be participating in


Number 1 and 2 will never see things on the same level, which inheritantly causes a problem. Number 3 just causes problems either way. The problem with this forum is that there are too many 1 and 3s, and not enough 2s. They were here at one time, but many just don't want to deal with the constant drama and the know it alls anymore........I know I haven't participated like I used to either.......
[/quote]

I fit into,the number 1 and 3 category. Except I am no self proclaimed expert. I personally don't think anyone on here tries to call themself an expert if they aren't.  I only try to pass on the information that I learned here onto others. In fact, that is what most members have done.  Most of the info passed on to others is, how you call it, regurgitated information.  If you didn't do an experiment or study all on your own, but read a book, seen a lecture, or read someone's thread, then it's regurgitated information. I just try to help others, as I have been helped. If its a serious problem I am trying to help someone with, I try to always remember to say if I have that species or not, or that I have read in the forum that this is what other members have done.  I don't try to fool anyone. I push Toms threads on raising sullys and Leo's and have done so from the beginning. I have never tried to claim it was my experience and when someone mistook me as the author of Toms threads, i quickly corrected them.  I have also been thank by Tom for Inserting his threads into my signature and for passing (regurgitating) them along. If someone thanks me for my experience, I quickly let them know, that I am just passing on what I have learned from this forum. That I am not an expert or whatever word they may use.  In fact, I would say I learned more from the regular members, that probably fit under cat. 1 and 3 with a little cat. 2 in them, but don't need to act like they are better then everyone else. Too much of your number 2 cat. I don't think is what has made this forum what it is.  The majority don't understand the scientific mumble jumble or feels its more then they need to get into.  Not that it's not something some members wouldn't like. It's nice to have those threads. Just as much as its nice to have the silly threads. I would say for most of us, we just want to learn the best way to take care of our torts, the best diets there is, get a few opinions on a problem we might have of just talk tort.  I think a lot of the older more experienced members aren't joining in as much, is either forum burn out, as I believe Jacqui mentioned and also the fact that no one tries looking up the answer before posting their question.  Just about every question being asked as been answered, but no one takes the time to look them up.  Most of us probably did it too, when we were new, but it does jerk a little on the nerves. Sometimes the same question will be in a thread right along side the new thread asking the same question, ugh.  The more experienced don't want to answer those over and over again and thats what they have pass on to others to be able to do.  it takes all kinds to make the world what it is.  Why can't it be the same here ?  It's just too simple to pass up the threads you don't want to read. That's what I do to the scientific threads.
[/quote]
```


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## Tortus (Jan 27, 2013)

I just caught this thread. Can someone sum it up in layman's terms? The first post just made me scratch my head. I have no idea what this tea party nonsense is about.

From what I've gathered through skimming, Will isn't happy with the "fluff" aspect of this board. 

If that's the case, maybe he should be writing scientific journals on the subject instead of browsing a forum filled with "turtle" pet owners and backyard breeders. This isn't exactly a scientific community filled with scholars. Just average people who love tortoises.


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## sibi (Jan 27, 2013)

Jason, it seems you got the jest of the whole debate in your one liners. Will finds that there's post that are misplaced and he's tired of reading fluff and silly comments mixed with the serious ones. He does have a valid point;however, most of us contend that if you don't like a thread, just don't look at it. Many here would like more scientific threads to read and learn from, but then the questions came up whether members who are new, inexperienced, unknowledgeable should be allowed to respond to these threads. And, so the debate continues.


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## Tortus (Jan 27, 2013)

sibi said:


> Jason, it seems you got the jest of the whole debate in your one liners. Will finds that there's post that are misplaced and he's tired of reading fluff and silly comments mixed with the serious ones. He does have a valid point;however, most of us contend that if you don't like a thread, just don't look at it. Many here would like more scientific threads to read and learn from, but then the questions came up whether members who are new, inexperienced, unknowledgeable should be allowed to respond to these threads. And, so the debate continues.



Speaking as someone who's been on public message boards for at least a decade, that's the way it goes. 

This really isn't the type of forum to exclude your average Joe from participating in a topic, even if their contribution is considered fluff. The mods would be deleting fluff comments left and right, only pissing people off because they may not see their comments as fluff.

This is a forum of average fluffsters. Real people. Either deal with it and learn to weed through the comments or find something else. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## terryo (Jan 27, 2013)

Tortus said:


> I just caught this thread. Can someone sum it up in layman's terms? The first post just made me scratch my head. I have no idea what this tea party nonsense is about.
> 
> From what I've gathered through skimming, Will isn't happy with the "fluff" aspect of this board.
> 
> If that's the case, maybe he should be writing scientific journals on the subject instead of browsing a forum filled with "turtle" pet owners and backyard breeders. This isn't exactly a scientific community filled with scholars. Just average people who love tortoises.



This is just about the best post. Short, sweet and to the point. I love it!


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## Nixxy (Jan 28, 2013)

......Can't we all just get along? 

In all seriousness, this seems like a bit of a petty thing to complain about. 

I think the added "silliness" really adds to our community we have here. Sure, we learn more about tortoises together, and share stories, etc. But we also laugh, bond, and get to know one another. This forum has a very homey feel to it, and that's part of the reason I love it so much. 

I love that I can go into a thread and have there be both some humor and science in it. It just makes the environment and mood feel great. And also, I think it makes us look very welcoming to new members!


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## shelloise (Jan 28, 2013)

I read this thread with interest and wanted to comment. I had been on forums for several years. ( chinchillas, rabbits, sugar gliders etc and never stuck with them because there was a lot of fighting, name calling and negative postings. Mini wars, mostly between breeders. 
When I found this forum, I was and still am, very happy to be part of it.
I had no experience with baby torts and found people to be very helpful and compassionate. 
If there are postings with "omg what a cute tortoise you have" or postings that people are joking around with....either scroll through and read or don't. Seems very simple to me.
When it comes down to asking a question about health, habitats etc., I know I will be able to get advice. I also know that people are kind and caring. When I was having trouble with shelloise not thriving for months and then when she died, the support was good to have and very appreciated. 
I have mentioned this forum to a few friends and family since I joined, I find it very informative and like seeing other people's torts and enclosures. You can always learn something new.


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## Creedence (Jan 28, 2013)

I think the color coding of posts is kind of embarrassing. It takes just a glance most of the time for one to know whether or not they're interested in a post. To suggest a complete change of the forum's look, because you can't be bothered to decide whether or not you want to read something? Really?


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## Richsandwich (Jan 28, 2013)

Really 11 pages long?


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## Tortus (Jan 29, 2013)

EricIvins said:


> The way I see it......There are three types of members in this forum -
> 
> 1 - The person that owns 1 or 2 Tortoises and comes to this forum as a "Pet" owner who like to talk about "Pet" things
> 
> ...



LOL. Well, there will always be plenty of "1s". But without the "3s" who post regurgitated information, some people simply wouldn't get answers. At least not in a timely fashion. 

There are some people who spend copious amounts of time here, and they learn. What's wrong with them "regurgitating" what they've learned to help someone out? Should they depend on one of the "2s" to jump in, whenever that may be?

Face it. 1s and 3s are here in much greater numbers than 2s. And I'm sure the 2s are sick to death of "regurgitating" the same things over and over and over like a machine. 

I'd think they'd be relieved as more people pass on what they've taught so they don't have to keep saying it repeatedly for the duration of their stay on this forum.

Honestly, if some of the "2s" are getting butthurt over another member "regurgitating" their information, they need to step down off their pedestals and realize we're all here to help each other out. Passing on false or misconstrued information is another thing. I personally pass on information I've learned first hand that helped my tortoise. What works for me. If someone else wants to pass on the info of more experienced keepers, I see no problem with that.


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## ra94131 (Jan 29, 2013)

Quite frankly, internet forums are the place for "1"s and "3"s. We're fortunate to have some "2"s around, but I think there are other (probably better and more exclusive) channels by which "2"s can and do communicate. I view their participation in an internet forum as essentially a public service.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Jan 29, 2013)

Cowboy_Ken said:


> And then there are those such as I who may just parrot what a respected member says and I gain credibility from that.



I find it interesting that a flippant, off hand comment about a potential type of precipitant has actually turned into a class of forum members. Nothing expands in a vacuum. 
For me, when I would do presentations, I welcomed the question period because it supplied a much more organic flow for the exchange of information. Questions enable a tailoring of information to the audience.


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## EricIvins (Jan 29, 2013)

Tortus said:


> EricIvins said:
> 
> 
> > The way I see it......There are three types of members in this forum -
> ...



ANYONE and let me repeat ANYONE can find the information they need here on the forum. A simple search is all it takes.......I would hope that anyone who has dug this far into the Interwebs can perform such a menial task.........

The problem with people regurgitating information is CONTEXT and CULPABILITY. If they are regurgitating that information, obviously they have NEITHER. Just because you read the information does not mean you know how to APPLY it to captive conditions. Context and application takes experience, and no one should be posting if they lack those crudentials. There are also posters who play telephone with that information, furthur complicating care issues............


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## Yellow Turtle (Jan 29, 2013)

EricIvins said:


> ANYONE and let me repeat ANYONE can find the information they need here on the forum. A simple search is all it takes.......I would hope that anyone who has dug this far into the Interwebs can perform such a menial task.........
> 
> The problem with people regurgitating information is CONTEXT and CULPABILITY. If they are regurgitating that information, obviously they have NEITHER. Just because you read the information does not mean you know how to APPLY it to captive conditions. Context and application takes experience, and no one should be posting if they lack those crudentials. There are also posters who play telephone with that information, furthur complicating care issues............



You should ask Josh if he prefer this site to be in that direction and still profitable enough to continue running.

I opt for special thread where all the known experts can give their contribution.


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## lynnedit (Jan 29, 2013)

Nixxy said:


> ......Can't we all just get along?
> 
> In all seriousness, this seems like a bit of a petty thing to complain about.
> 
> ...





shelloise said:


> I read this thread with interest and wanted to comment. I had been on forums for several years. ( chinchillas, rabbits, sugar gliders etc and never stuck with them because there was a lot of fighting, name calling and negative postings. Mini wars, mostly between breeders.
> When I found this forum, I was and still am, very happy to be part of it.
> I had no experience with baby torts and found people to be very helpful and compassionate.
> If there are postings with "omg what a cute tortoise you have" or postings that people are joking around with....either scroll through and read or don't. Seems very simple to me.
> ...



Well said. Time to lighten up.


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## leonardo the tmnt (Jan 29, 2013)

Nixxy said:


> ......Can't we all just get along?
> 
> In all seriousness, this seems like a bit of a petty thing to complain about.
> 
> ...



Agreed!!!


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## wellington (Jan 29, 2013)

EricIvins said:


> Tortus said:
> 
> 
> > EricIvins said:
> ...




Disagree. If it weren't for the regurgitated info, as you call it. Most of us wouldn't have gotten any help. BTW, as i'v said before. If you learned it from someone, and you pass the info on, you just regurgitated. Where amd what are the credential 
Of an expert? Belonging to a club doesn't make an expert! Hatching a few dozen of clutches a year, doesn't make an expert! Hell, being a vet doesn't make you an expert, unless you a reptile certified vet. Tom, has contributed more to this forum then anyone that would call themselves an expert. Tom himself, has said it many times, he's not an expert and is still learning. You want to talk to the so called experts. Just start a thread. In the first post of the thread, as members to please not as the typical beginner questions. Also ask that they stay on topic. When or if you feel that particular topic should be closed, as for no more post on that topic. Some won't adhere to what your asking, most of us I think will. I am a proud 1 and 3 and have helped a lot of members. Infact I don't believe i'v had a number 2 help me at all!


At least not the kind of 2 you and Will are talking about!


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## sibi (Jan 29, 2013)

Can't we just drop this discussion? I mean, 11 pages of post, going back and forth, around and around is insanity. Labeling members as a 1,2,3 is just begging for an argument. Frankly, it's insulting and denigrates all members here. The majority here think that no one should be excluded from responding to any thread. Scientific discussions can still take place, and most of us encourage it, but placing requirements or criteria to be able to respond goes against the principles of this forum. Nothing is going to change the core principles that created the need for this type of forum. So, despite individual's objections or support, josh isn't going to jeopardize the future of this site on the wimp of a couple of elite members, period. So, can't we just move on and wait to see how things turn out?


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## terryo (Jan 29, 2013)

"It seems to me that "someone" has mixed up a tainted batter and baked a cake, and now that someone is sitting back, watching, as everyone is eating the tainted cake." 
I think the forum is fine just the way it is. If it wasn't, it wouldn't have as many members as it has. Why fix it if it isn't broke. If you don't like all the fun posts, don't read them.


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## bigred (Jan 29, 2013)

Wellington you do a great job trying to help people out so try not to get upset. As far as the number system goes 1,2,3 I learned something along time ago, CONSIDER THE SOURCE.


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## cristal redfoot (Jan 29, 2013)

sibi said:


> Can't we just drop this discussion? I mean, 11 pages of post, going back and forth, around and around is insanity. Labeling members as a 1,2,3 is just begging for an argument. Frankly, it's insulting and denigrates all members here. The majority here think that no one should be excluded from responding to any thread. Scientific discussions can still take place, and most of us encourage it, but placing requirements or criteria to be able to respond goes against the principles of this forum. Nothing is going to change the core principles that created the need for this type of forum. So, despite individual's objections or support, josh isn't going to jeopardize the future of this site on the wimp of a couple of elite members, period. So, can't we just move on and wait to see how things turn out?


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 30, 2013)

Eric, I may ask, have you ever told your children to much candy rots their teeth? Oh no! You just likely passed regurgitated information, because that is likely what your parents told you.
Have you done a field research study on every species you have ever given out info on? Well, unless you have, any info you have thus passed is regurgitated. Whether or not you have had a chance to APPLY it is meaningless; it is still regurgitated. There would be no form without "regurgitated" information.

I think everyone is getting confused here. What, exactly, would be wrong with a "serious discussion" forum? No one would need to be excluded. Shoot, all that was asked for was a topic section without the constant tea party and tortoise balloon animals. Is that so hard? Oh, wait, for a taste of your own medicine....Don't read it. Those of you so opposed to if because you feel you would be "excluded", well, then, don't read it. Just as simple as you say. I don't get the problem here. The idea, as I see it, was to have a section of topics to PLEASE EVERYONE. Not just to please you, though there is no reason it should displease you.
It seems it somehow insults everyone, the idea of a topic thats not entirely devoted to THEIR needs. Nobody would be treated unequally...I don't get where on earth that came up. If anyone had something valuable to say, they would be free to say it. What is the reason for opposition? Because other members may be pleased with it, other then yourselves? If you don't like it, don't need to read it. "Its that simple" in your own words.


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## MrJorgensen (Jan 30, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> The idea, as I see it, was to have a section of topics to PLEASE EVERYONE. Not just to please you, though there is no reason it should displease you. It seems it somehow insults everyone, the idea of a topic thats not entirely devoted to THEIR needs...



Please explain how creating a new section is doing anything other than pleasing your, Will's, and the other supporters' needs. You all are currently expressing frustration with topics that aren't devoted to your needs. Why complicate this? The forum meets the needs of MOST of the members, and that's as good as a forum can do.


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## EricIvins (Jan 30, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Eric, I may ask, have you ever told your children to much candy rots their teeth? Oh no! You just likely passed regurgitated information, because that is likely what your parents told you.
> Have you done a field research study on every species you have ever given out info on? Well, unless you have, any info you have thus passed is regurgitated. Whether or not you have had a chance to APPLY it is meaningless; it is still regurgitated. There would be no form without "regurgitated" information.
> 
> I think everyone is getting confused here. What, exactly, would be wrong with a "serious discussion" forum? No one would need to be excluded. Shoot, all that was asked for was a topic section without the constant tea party and tortoise balloon animals. Is that so hard? Oh, wait, for a taste of your own medicine....Don't read it. Those of you so opposed to if because you feel you would be "excluded", well, then, don't read it. Just as simple as you say. I don't get the problem here. The idea, as I see it, was to have a section of topics to PLEASE EVERYONE. Not just to please you, though there is no reason it should displease you.
> It seems it somehow insults everyone, the idea of a topic thats not entirely devoted to THEIR needs. Nobody would be treated unequally...I don't get where on earth that came up. If anyone had something valuable to say, they would be free to say it. What is the reason for opposition? Because other members may be pleased with it, other then yourselves? If you don't like it, don't need to read it. "Its that simple" in your own words.



I let the Dentist do that for me. That is his job......

I've done Field Research, but not on any Exotic species. Again, the information I post is on CAPTIVE husbandry and how it applies to CAPTIVITY. I fail to understand the relevance between field research and captive situations. Two completely different entities......There may be convergent evolution between the two, but captivity is captivity and nature is nature. A comparison can't be drawn between the two in regards to the application of captive husbandry.......


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## Yvonne G (Jan 30, 2013)

It bothers me when I see a member answer a question and I know that member doesn't keep the type of tortoise being asked about. In my opinion, I believe that if you are going to answer a question with "regurgitated" information, you should first make a disclaimer.

If no one has answered a question and I can give general info, but not first hand knowledge of the species, I will ALWAYS say, "I don't keep this species of tortoise, but I have read that blah, blah, blah." That way the person who asked the question can take my answer or leave it. Plus, 9 times out of 10, when someone who DOES keep that species of tortoise sees my response, they will come in and help the person who asked the question.


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## Tortus (Jan 30, 2013)

Yvonne you have a point, but what if someone knows certain facts about the species from reading? Like maybe average size, temperament, etc. 

I have all my pets in my sig, so if I say sulcatas are the third biggest tortoise in the world, people can look down and see I don't own a sulcata. When I see people on the leopard forum making comments, I usually look at the sig to see if they own one, if they have pets listed. Many people making comments don't own leopards, but if they've been here for a while with hundreds or thousands of posts and actively read the forum, I don't dismiss their comments. 

I agree with sibi that segregating ourselves into certain categories and dictating who can say what is only going to cause hard feelings and less members.

Since Eric mentioned #3s as "self proclaimed experts", what makes someone a genuine "expert" who we should listen to? There are still breeders who breed and raise dry, pyramided tortoises and have done so for decades. Is that person "expert" enough to take advice from? I'm sure there are casual tortoise owners who've spent enough time here to teach them a thing or two.


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## shelloise (Jan 30, 2013)

cristal redfoot said:


> sibi said:
> 
> 
> > Can't we just drop this discussion? I mean, 11 pages of post, going back and forth, around and around is insanity. Labeling members as a 1,2,3 is just begging for an argument. Frankly, it's insulting and denigrates all members here. The majority here think that no one should be excluded from responding to any thread. Scientific discussions can still take place, and most of us encourage it, but placing requirements or criteria to be able to respond goes against the principles of this forum. Nothing is going to change the core principles that created the need for this type of forum. So, despite individual's objections or support, josh isn't going to jeopardize the future of this site on the wimp of a couple of elite members, period. So, can't we just move on and wait to see how things turn out?



I agree, it would be nice if some people would get past their egos.


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## sibi (Jan 30, 2013)

Yvonne, like Jason, I too feel that I don't have to own a particular species of animal to know a lot about them. For instance, I don't own a cat, but I know that if you want to avoid urinary problems, you should buy foods with the least amount of ash. I picked this scenario because it's something that most cat owner don't know; yet, I knew that. If I give "regurgitated" information (which, btw, i find offensive because I like to think of it as "learned"), who's to say that I don't have something constructive to contribute? Some information is so easy to absorb, who's to say that it isn't worth consideration. I'm rather surprised that you felt like this because many times, based on actual experience or similar experience or even on common knowledge, i have posted remarks or advice to others. So, what you're saying is that it bothers you that i could offer advice about animals i don't own. Really?


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 30, 2013)

Please explain how creating a new section is doing anything other than pleasing your, Will's, and the other supporters' needs. You all are currently expressing frustration with topics that aren't devoted to your needs. Why complicate this? The forum meets the needs of MOST of the members, and that's as good as a forum can do.
[/quote]

Thank you, Mr. Jorgenson, you have hit the nail right on the head. A new topics section of this nature would please Will and all other supporters; one of those supporters being myself. Now, what I can't understand, is....how would that be a bad thing? No, the forum will nEVER please everyone. BUT, it can come close. Creating an "Advanced discussion" topics section would be one step closer. Tell me, please, how would that EVER be a bad thing? Is it bad just because it isn't tailored towards you, and is tailored towards meeting the desire of others? In the words of many here, if you don't like it, just ignore it. Pretend it doesn't even exist. 

As Will explained, a section like this could be very helpful. Perhaps it would attract a new set of members, with a whole knew set of experience...How would this be a bad thing?




emysemys said:


> It bothers me when I see a member answer a question and I know that member doesn't keep the type of tortoise being asked about. In my opinion, I believe that if you are going to answer a question with "regurgitated" information, you should first make a disclaimer.
> 
> If no one has answered a question and I can give general info, but not first hand knowledge of the species, I will ALWAYS say, "I don't keep this species of tortoise, but I have read that blah, blah, blah." That way the person who asked the question can take my answer or leave it. Plus, 9 times out of 10, when someone who DOES keep that species of tortoise sees my response, they will come in and help the person who asked the question.



I agree. You should not usually answer questions about a species unless you keep said species. However, this is a completely different thing then "regurgitated" information. Yvonne, I hope you know that likely, almost everything you say is regurgitated. I'm quite sure you read it in a book, on the internet, heard it in a speech, or some other form. YOU did not research it yourself, or at least most of it. In the (12?) years I've kept tortoises....I will humbly say, MOST of what I know, I learned elsewhere. Now, I have learned a lot myself, but this is mostly about their behavior....Most husbandry aspects were learned elsewhere. It is the same case with everyone, whether they would like to deny it or accept it.

I just don't understand where on earth the opposition for a new topics section of this nature is coming from. The opposers seem to want to say every other word "You don't like the silliness, don't read it and move on." I question, why it is, that they are unable to follow their own advice? If a topics section as suggested is made, IF you don't like it, then follow your own advice and completely ignore it. Never visit it. However, I am quite confident you would find yourself visiting it often, as I feel there would be a strong flow of new information that everyone would love to learn....
There has not been one justifiable reason for the opposition of the topic section suggested, other then then objection to excluding certain members. Yes, it is a bad idea to have only certain members invited and others excluded. But, if everyone is allowed to post here....Then there is absolutely no way you can reason that it would be a bad thing, other then complaining that its not just for you....


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## Tortus (Jan 30, 2013)

I find the idea of needing to own something in order to know things about it ridiculous. That's like saying only a parent can be a child psychologist or a pediatrician. 

And really, if this section is open to anyone, how would it be any different than posting a "serious" discussion in say, tortoise health? Breeding? You'll just be making more work for the moderators if only super-serious, expert posts are to be made in this section. 

I doubt it's going to happen. It sounds too exclusive and unnecessary. But what someone could do is gather a list of people who want such a section and start a free message board. Be your own admin. Just a place to go in order to assure no silliness is allowed. I've run free boards in the past and you can set one up in a few minutes.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 30, 2013)

Sorry, but you know absolutely nothing about me and what I know about turtles and tortoises. I have had turtles and tortoise for about 40 years. I must admit that during the first 30 or so years I was keeping my tortoises the way I was taught, however I can honestly say that there is nothing old school on my property anymore. Everything I do for my tortoises I do from first hand experience. You can go Wa-a-a-a-y back and double check that I am the first one to offer soaking sick tortoises in baby food. I learned this all by myself. No one told me about it and I didn't read it. When I first suggested it I was almost laughed off the YAHOO listserv that I belonged to. There are many more instances, however at 74 years of age I can't remember most of them. And besides, didn't you understand that I ALWAYS preface a post that I know nothing about the species with, "I don't keep this species, but I've read..."?


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 30, 2013)

emysemys said:


> Sorry, but you know absolutely nothing about me and what I know about turtles and tortoises. I have had turtles and tortoise for about 40 years. I must admit that during the first 30 or so years I was keeping my tortoises the way I was taught, however I can honestly say that there is nothing old school on my property anymore. Everything I do for my tortoises I do from first hand experience. You can go Wa-a-a-a-y back and double check that I am the first one to offer soaking sick tortoises in baby food. I learned this all by myself. No one told me about it and I didn't read it. When I first suggested it I was almost laughed off the YAHOO listserv that I belonged to. There are many more instances, however at 74 years of age I can't remember most of them. And besides, didn't you understand that I ALWAYS preface a post that I know nothing about the species with, "I don't keep this species, but I've read..."?



Okay, Yvonne, so you are, in essence, saying that every food item you offer to your tortoise, you learned from first-hand experience all the benefits it offered, or if it was even safe to feed? Completely absurd. Now, you have used this in first-hand experience, as have we all...But you did not LEARN it in first hand experience. Thus, most things you say, was once read, learned, somewhere, and makes it regurgitated; the fact that you had applied it in your care is regardless. Also, you just admitted that the first 30 years you did what you were taught...Well, you are one of the few here that has kept tortoises for 40 years. The rest of us are still in our first 30 years....So I will proudly keep passing on what you refer to as "regurgitated". The only difference between you, me, and Eric, is that I am humble enough to admit it, not try to deny it out of pride....


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## CtTortoiseMom (Jan 30, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> emysemys said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, but you know absolutely nothing about me and what I know about turtles and tortoises. I have had turtles and tortoise for about 40 years. I must admit that during the first 30 or so years I was keeping my tortoises the way I was taught, however I can honestly say that there is nothing old school on my property anymore. Everything I do for my tortoises I do from first hand experience. You can go Wa-a-a-a-y back and double check that I am the first one to offer soaking sick tortoises in baby food. I learned this all by myself. No one told me about it and I didn't read it. When I first suggested it I was almost laughed off the YAHOO listserv that I belonged to. There are many more instances, however at 74 years of age I can't remember most of them. And besides, didn't you understand that I ALWAYS preface a post that I know nothing about the species with, "I don't keep this species, but I've read..."?
> ...



So the fact that Yvonne was and is running a turtle and tortoise rescue and has rehabbed countless species of turtles and tortoises with her own hands and then has taken that expertise and used it on this forum is regurgitating information?


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## Baoh (Jan 30, 2013)

This thread is a real cluster of elitism mixed with anti-intellectualism.

Regurgitation is being confused with digestion by some and that confusion is being parroted in regurgitated fashion. If you understand the information fully, you have digested it. If you repeat it after having fully understood it, it is not regurgitation. If you repeat it without fully understanding the information, you are regurgitating it. The difference is defined by the depth of your understanding. It seems many do not understand even that difference.


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## mctlong (Jan 30, 2013)

IMO - Its not regurgitated information if someone took the information, carefully considered the pros and cons, applied it to their own situation, had positive results, and then recommended it to others. That is information that has been tested and withstood scrutiny.

Regurgitated information is when you hear someone say something like "carrots are bad for tortoises" and then, without ever feeding your tortoise carrots and without doing any further research or consulting any other sources, you re-post the message "carrots are bad for tortoises." 

Regurgitated information happens in forum settings. Its almost impossible to avoid. So, as a reader, I ask myself "where did this person obtain this information or opinion?" "What is this advice based on?" "Does it make sense?" These are questions that all tort owners need to ask themselves when reading advice given on a public forum (or anywhere). Never blindly accept advice given by strangers.




Baoh said:


> This thread is a real cluster of elitism mixed with anti-intellectualism.
> 
> Regurgitation is being confused with digestion by some and that confusion is being parroted in regurgitated fashion. If you understand the information fully, you have digested it. If you repeat it after having fully understood it, it is not regurgitation. If you repeat it without fully understanding the information, you are regurgitating it. The difference is defined by the depth of your understanding. It seems many do not understand even that difference.



You beat me to it, Boah. Well said.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 30, 2013)

Baoh said:


> This thread is a real cluster of elitism mixed with anti-intellectualism.
> 
> Regurgitation is being confused with digestion by some and that confusion is being parroted in regurgitated fashion. If you understand the information fully, you have digested it. If you repeat it after having fully understood it, it is not regurgitation. If you repeat it without fully understanding the information, you are regurgitating it. The difference is defined by the depth of your understanding. It seems many do not understand even that difference.



I do agree with you about not fully understanding the information. I try never to repeat information without understanding it. Parroting things you have heard others say, but not ever using it or understanding it yourself, would be regurgitation. However, you have still regurgitated it if you have once read it somewhere to learn it.




CtTortoiseMom said:


> RedfootsRule said:
> 
> 
> > emysemys said:
> ...



If she has first learned it elsewhere BEFORE having applied it, and not learned it purely out of her own experience, then yes, absolutely. Is that so hard to understand?


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## sibi (Jan 30, 2013)

I certainly couldn't have said it better.


Baoh said:


> This thread is a real cluster of elitism mixed with anti-intellectualism.
> 
> Regurgitation is being confused with digestion by some and that confusion is being parroted in regurgitated fashion. If you understand the information fully, you have digested it. If you repeat it after having fully understood it, it is not regurgitation. If you repeat it without fully understanding the information, you are regurgitating it. The difference is defined by the depth of your understanding. It seems many do not understand even that difference.


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## tortadise (Jan 30, 2013)

I think its very obvious the ambivalence of status labeling of an expert per say . So many specifications and details of tortoises are known facts and a reality of science. However, i do believe that many people learn in different ways. As well, that many scientific, and or husbandry practices or personal experiances can vary. People will never get along. Especially pertaining to the different levels of "experiance" all of us have. Whether or not its considered silly or regurgitated. It all benefits some people on multiple levels of wealth. Wealth could be a smile, giggle, or even a "wow, i never knew that. Thanks for info" moments. I can understand both sides of sillyness and the scientific sides of whichever party one might side with. I will say i am human, and with my great passion will always learn something new in this industry.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 31, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> The only difference between you, me, and Eric, is that I am humble enough to admit it, not try to deny it out of pride....



I'm not exactly sure what "pride" has to do with this, but it seems to me you are saying something bad about me. I don't understand how you can possibly say things about people you have no knowledge of. Almost every single post that you make sounds holier than thou. I think we can go back and re-read your posts and not be able to find a single one where you weren't trying to instigate an argument. Once again, you have started to debate the people and not the subject.

Let's all get back on topic. We're supposed to be talking about silliness on the Forum.


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## CtTortoiseMom (Jan 31, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> > This thread is a real cluster of elitism mixed with anti-intellectualism.
> ...





Peter, 
Since we are talking about Silliness, I think it is SILLY that you are so hung up on this word "regurgitated". Everything that she has done can not possibly be in a book. You can only read so much. Yvonne has used hands on examples of caring for tortoises and turtles and applied methods based on the individual needs of the turtle/tortoise she was working on and used real life experience to help others. It is also Silly that you called yourself "humble" if you were so humble you would have done a little homework and immediately apologized for making Yvonne out to be some well meaning, newbie, book worm.


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## Tortus (Jan 31, 2013)

So what's left to discuss in this thread? 

Oh, and it's "silliness", not "sillyness". I've seen it more than once and had to say it.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Jan 31, 2013)

I thought this was still active as an opportunity to bash others and feel better about ourselves. Lol. You are, an exclusion to this. I tried to spell it correctly I think.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 31, 2013)

emysemys said:


> RedfootsRule said:
> 
> 
> > The only difference between you, me, and Eric, is that I am humble enough to admit it, not try to deny it out of pride....
> ...



But Yvonne, in your own words...I didn't think you could say bad things about people you have no knowledge of. I never started an argument. I merely pointed out the fact that if we want to say others have "regurgitated" information, then we ourselves better have learned every piece of information we know from hands-on experience and field studys, and have never touched a book. If you haven't done that, your info is regurgitated. You and others wanted to use that as some sort of insult; I merely pointed out you should investigate yourselves before others. Yet, somehow, that started an argument. If you unjustly aim the blame out me, so be it.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand how you can justify putting your last word in to insulting me, and then ask us all to get back on-topic, and not expect a response. I have no desire to argue with a moderator, but that is just plain "silly". If you wish to delete this post, then I suggest you delete yours also, else you are a hypocrite...

There really is nothing left to discuss in this thread....There is silliness here; some say to much, some say its just their cup of tea. So it can't be fixed. The only "fix" would be a new topics section that was suggested, to please the other set of members, but there is clearly to much opposition for that, so it won't happen.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Jan 31, 2013)

The great thing about being in a civilized society that has a written language is that I don't need to know how a nuclear power plant works to know that they do work. Collective information is a great accomplishment.


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## mctlong (Jan 31, 2013)

I think this thread has run its course.........


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## wellington (Jan 31, 2013)

mctlong said:


> I think this thread has run its course.........



I totally agree. The person that started it, pretty much got over it and has not posted in quite some time. I think the thread should be closed before it goes further out of hand. Just ask members to not put silliness in on more serious, educational, scientific threads. If they do, skip over it.


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## sibi (Jan 31, 2013)

Amen!


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## TortyTom (Jan 31, 2013)

All I can say is wow! I absolutely LOVE this Forum and everything and everyone in it. It is a wealth of knowledge that would be impossible to learn on my own. But honestly,,,, If I would have read all of this before I joined,,, I more then likely would not have joined...


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## Tortus (Jan 31, 2013)

TortyTom said:


> All I can say is wow! I absolutely LOVE this Forum and everything and everyone in it. It is a wealth of knowledge that would be impossible to learn on my own. But honestly,,,, If I would have read all of this before I joined,,, I more then likely would not have joined...



I like the forum too. Don't let one thread worry you. Sometimes you've gotta be the bigger, more mature person and let someone have the last word, even if you don't agree with it. Or else it could go on forever.


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## myflutterby (Feb 2, 2013)

Tortus said:


> So what's left to discuss in this thread?
> 
> Oh, and it's "silliness", not "sillyness". I've seen it more than once and had to say it.



haha


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## myflutterby (Feb 2, 2013)

I'm new... this is intimidating...


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## bigred (Feb 3, 2013)

myflutterby said:


> I'm new... this is intimidating...



Did you actually think we would be talking about torts Its a good forum


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## Tortus (Feb 3, 2013)

myflutterby said:


> I'm new... this is intimidating...



Aw, it's not that bad. Honestly, new people should probably steer clear of the debatable topics forum for a while. At least until they have a better grasp of what the forum is about. 

A new person jumping into this topic would probably be afraid to comment on things they're not 100% expert on. It may be a good idea to make this forum accessible to members who've been here for a certain amount of time, or have a certain amount of posts, judging by some of the comments I've seen regarding this thread.


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## wellington (Feb 3, 2013)

Tortus said:


> myflutterby said:
> 
> 
> > I'm new... this is intimidating...
> ...



I totally agree on the part that newbies should not read these kinds of threads. I did that when I first joined. It was my first forum ever. I was kinda intimidated with the disagreements that was going on. However, unless you are very small minded, you will quickly realize that this is only 1/2 to 1% of this forum. Maybe even less. The rest if this forum is very kind, giving and helpful. You just can't have the diversity of members we have and always have everyone get along or agree on the same things all the time. It's just not possible. It's not possible in a family and its never going to be possible here. Everyone needs to take what they can from these kinds of threads and debates and then get over it. Realize what this forum really is about and what I'd does for our shelled family members. If you don't like someone or an opinion, that's fine. Give your say if you want and move on. You don't have to live with anyone here, nor do you ever have to talk to them if you don't want. However, I do think you owe it to your tort to consider what they are saying. It might be info you will want or need.


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## terryo (Feb 3, 2013)

A few years ago, on another forum, I was trying to help a new CH owner in keeping up the humidity for her little tort, so I posted that I kept my inside box turtles in glass vivariums, and was doing the same with my Cherry Head hatchling. I went on to describe how I set up the viv. and what plants I used, and heat, lighting etc., and how this helped keep up the humidity. Everyone came on with very negative posts and were very hurtful and critical, telling me I had no right to give new owners this information as no tortoise or box turtle should be kept in glass vivariums. Needless to say, I was mortified, embarrassed and hurt reading all the hurtful comments. My husband saw how upset I was, and told me to shut off the computer, and after I did, he said that now no one on that forum exists anymore. And he was right. (I rarely give advice now, and if I do I always say......it's just how I do things.)


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## Yvonne G (Feb 3, 2013)

terryo said:


> My husband saw how upset I was, and told me to shut off the computer, and after I did, he said that now no one on that forum exists anymore. And he was right. (I rarely give advice now, and if I do I always say......it's just how I do things.)




This is a great concept. "Just shut off the computer!" and no one exists anymore. I love it!!!

And Terry...you may not give advice anymore, but I do, for you. I try to find pictures of your beautiful glass habitats to show keepers of baby RF and box turtles what to strive for.


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## Yellow Turtle (Feb 3, 2013)

myflutterby said:


> I'm new... this is intimidating...



You actually join even longer than me. You should have noticed that even there are many debates here, so far this forum is great for all members, especially newbies.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Feb 3, 2013)

terryo said:


> A few years ago, on another forum, I was trying to help a new CH owner in keeping up the humidity for her little tort, so I posted that I kept my inside box turtles in glass vivariums, and was doing the same with my Cherry Head hatchling. I went on to describe how I set up the viv. and what plants I used, and heat, lighting etc., and how this helped keep up the humidity. Everyone came on with very negative posts and were very hurtful and critical, telling me I had no right to give new owners this information as no tortoise or box turtle should be kept in glass vivariums. Needless to say, I was mortified, embarrassed and hurt reading all the hurtful comments. My husband saw how upset I was, and told me to shut off the computer, and after I did, he said that now no one on that forum exists anymore. And he was right. (I rarely give advice now, and if I do I always say......it's just how I do things.)



I have never understood myself the strong dislike of a visible wall enclosure, glass, plexi, whatever. Maybe has something to do with size of the tank? I've seen the argument that some torts will try to get through the glass, but that sorta dies off as a point of view, when I hear about sulcata just ramming through sheet rock walls. And what of all the fish in fish taks that swim endlessly against the glass? I think the tank thing is about size, in rational thinking land, not a wall that can be seen through.

I think the whole aquarium debate began with an insular tortoise expert, some many years ago. If you know who I mean, great, if not don't worry about it, visible wall enclosures are OK, if the foot print is big enough, and it's set up for the animal, the animal is very unlikely to spend the day seeking to breach that magical barrier of glass.

Will

PS: if could turn this thread off I would, it has served all possible useful utility. But that again is up the the owner overlord Josh, and the Mods to run with what they found in the thread, or do nothing. You all can turn it off by stop using it, and it will drop in use, and off the radar.


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## sibi (Feb 3, 2013)

Hi myflutterby, don't feel intimated at what some say here because at one point in their lives, they were newbies at this. Beside the general advice on health, which you will learn if you follow this forum, the experience you have with your tort is uniquely yours. Avoid negative comments, and you'll be the better for it. Don't miss the opportunities to post pics of your tort, and the periodic updates that I'd love to see of your tort. Like most families, there's arguments and then we just go on.


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