# sulcata, to breed or not?



## Kapidolo Farms (Nov 26, 2012)

I don't suppose there will be a 'right' answer, maybe not even a best one.

I worked at a zoo, so now all to well about the calls from people who bought a sulcata, and don't know what they got themselves into. I've sold animals from a table at herp shows, and heard the most outlandish BS about how "some people" know how to keep them dwarfs by a secret husbandry protocol.

What I don't get is where aside from Kingsnake.com etc are people now buying all these thousands of sulcatas.

I don't see them at the big box pet stores. I do see CalZoo, among others, buying them in the 10 lots, price aside, where are all these going? 

Without regard to $$ on the cost to breed & raise, or the price when sold. Doesn't it seem sorta criminal when they are regarded as extinct in so much of their natural range to not breed them?

So, if you had a small group, say three X 1.2 animals and they produced a 200 to 300 eggs a year = > 150 hatchlings (don't get caught up in the math) and they were sold all to CalZoo, or whoever, where do they go from there. 

The reason I use CalZoo, is they do not sell on Kingsnake.com to anyone, but retailers.

If you don't like the scenario as I set it up, think outside this box I made, where are they going? I hear, read of breeders producing hundreds - who is buying all those at retail and where, I see all the "we want your babies" on Kingsnake.com, but who are the ultimate first retail purchasers?

Are they going to Japan, Europe, back to Africa? 

Are there really hundreds maybe thousands of people buying that cute little tortoise, who have no clue what is to come, do they see it as a disposable pet, do they really count on a zoos taking it?

Has anyone actually systematical surveyed zoos and other 'dumping' places for how many sulcatas per year are offered?

What is your POV? 

At least a few folks here have rescues, so I imagine you could write a book to answer these questions, but some of you do breed, and some have seen this or that.

Where do they all go?

Will


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## yagyujubei (Nov 26, 2012)

I would think that a large percentage of those sold die in their first year.


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## Baoh (Nov 26, 2012)

Mine (I produced significantly less than 100 sulcatas in 2012, but things are expected to shoot up massively to 120-240 or so in 2013) generally go to individual customers. Not businesses. I am not opposed to selling in lots or to businesses, but I usually do not, as the profit is significantly higher when sold individually. It depends on how much of a PITA one wants to put up with. Mine find new homes directly in the US. I would rather sell an ivory sulcata at $500-$600 each or a het at $75-$125 each than give up the former at $200-$300 and the latter at $25-$45. I will likely sell typical hets in lots once production ramps up and discount for multiples for the ivories, but I will not go wholesale-low if I have no need to. 

From what I see, most people treat the cheap ones as throwaway pets or make fatal mistakes in care (too dry, too hot, or too cold) that result in no real reductions in demand. For every thriving animal you see, it seems there are many who never really get the opportunity with your average keeper/buyer.

I have no trouble placing 100% of these. Sometimes the last few lag for a few weeks or so at the end of the season, but not very long. I actually have a tougher time selling older project animals of certain kinds (like yellow foot tortoises), although that is manageable. People say they will be "ready" when the minute becomes the monster, but they are more often than not deluding themselves.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Nov 26, 2012)

This is is something I would not have guessed, that many die early on.

I've known people who buy snakes (reluctant feeder at times) never feed it, and just sorta figure that was that, ans when it dies go but another one, the ultimate low maintenance pet. You think it might be like that, or maybe not-optimal care? 

Will


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## Yvonne G (Nov 26, 2012)

All you have to do is read all the "My baby sulcata is sick" threads that are posted here from new members to realize what a big problem this (that the babies die) must be in the world outside the Forum.

The zoo in my town refers all "will you take my tortoise" calls they receive to me. I'm a pretty small operation, but I'd say about half the sulcatas I take in came from a call to the zoo first. (Zoos don't want your tortoises, folks).

I looked back at my 2011 record and of the 67 rescued turtles and tortoises I took in, 17 of them were sulcatas. They average about the size of an adult desert tortoise. In my opinion, when the tortoise is now too big for an aquarium, and is big enough to require some sort of heat during the winter, it then is too much trouble to care for anymore.

There are a couple of sulcata breeders (that I know of) here in my town. Every so often I see an ad in the classified selling baby sulcatas for $50. One of the biggest pet stores here in town buys baby sulcatas 2 or 3 at a time from a local back yard breeder.

I'm not in favor of breeding sulcatas for a couple reasons. Quite a few of the babies go to people who haven't a clue how to care for them and the baby dies. Then there are those who buy that cute little baby tortoise and are given incorrect info (or just plain don't believe how big they get) and when the tortoise starts to tear up their yard, they give it away.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Nov 26, 2012)

Based on emysemys, yagyujubei, and baoh, responses suggest somewhat that they die, or get passed on as best as re-homing people can pass them on. Baoh, I visited the "breeder of regard" in Porterville CA, in the early 1980 along with some friends. They were selling 100-200 hatchlings a year for $250.00 each, and had a waiting list. 

About 1998 +/- a year or two, I sold some at the Hamburg show in PA (the wild west of herp swap meets) and sold four or five at $60 each even though other vendors had them for about half that price. This is where I heard rumor of the secret dwarf husbandry regime.

This is what I think about now when I see first ramped up breeding of other species that get big. Radiated are very regulated (that state line thing) along with Galops. But what about Aldabras? They are not the 'brutes' that large sulcata can be, but get much bigger, and at about $1,000 for imported 'captive bred' or somewhat more for more verifiable captive bred, I see a similar future. Total egg production and hatchlings per female no doubt much less, and "backyard" breeding would be much more rare, but I see a potential.

Even Radiata, given that TSA article quoted here and there would suggest a potential would exists for them. Leopards, Redfoots too. None of these others reproduce at the same rate and are not quite the brutes that sulcatas can be, but what of this future? I have seen the import numbers for russians, 1000 come out of 

I know of one group of people that had a large breeding operation for Redfoots in Venzuela a few years before the government changed, they produced 100's annually, now that has shifted or been further developed in Brazil <http://www.geochelone.com.br/usa/caracteristicas.cfm>. Russiand, lost the link to the farm in Kazakhstan, in the thousands. 

There are many many thousand in total available each year of at least a dozen species. In aggregate, what's the problem?

Aside from the few species that are well regulated like Galops and radiateds (that are also "commercially available") zoo won't take them. Frankly when employed at one zoo, they would not even take radiated when a large group that appeared healthy was offered. So Aside from zoos as a 'dumping place . . .

What is your line to receive more animals, size, species, perceived $$ value - as an individual - or breeding potential? 

Will


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## DeanS (Nov 26, 2012)

Ironically, I don't dig the whole breeding thing at all...UNLESS you're breeding something special...i.e. ivories, locale specifics (such as the giant Sudans). If you're breeding mutts for the dollar...please...DON'T! Living in SoCal, I see dozens of breeders offering nothing but mutts...and their husbandry leaves a lot to be desired. $350 for a 7" pyramided discard? Go f**k yourself! The problem with Kingsnake and some others is that the buyers that frequent those sites are usually novices who don't know any better! You want baby sulcatas? Don't breed your own...go see Tom! At least with him it's an ongoing scientific study that ALWAYS produces top-notch animals!


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## Kapidolo Farms (Nov 26, 2012)

Mutts, I guess you mean that the adults are of 'not know origin'. Same with several other species, where there has been some actual 'population' distinctions made. Radiated, leopards, and redfoots might also be in this kind of group. All technically one species as are sulcatas, (based on the most current scientific understanding). I know I started this as a sulcata, to breed or not thread/line of thought, but these other species all display unique geographic variations, and some have been broken into geographically distinct groups, somewhere less than the criteria, currently as it is thought of, for sub-species.

DeanS, is it the mutt part, or is there some other basis for the breeding point of view. Those others that you mention tend to be more $$, with the resulting perceived owner interest should be greater. Would you break it out that way?

As teenager way back when monkeys could be bought in pet stores, people bought monkey (high end price and care) and seemed to not know what they were getting into. Not a best comparison, but $$ seems like a motivator for better care, but it seems that the color morph sulcatas may end up in rescue too?

emysemys, get any of these, or other rescue people, what comes through your rescue effort?

Will


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## Jacqui (Nov 26, 2012)

Will said:


> DeanS, is it the mutt part, or is there some other basis for the breeding point of view. Those others that you mention tend to be more $$, with the resulting perceived owner interest should be greater. Would you break it out that way?
> 
> As teenager way back when monkeys could be bought in pet stores, people bought monkey (high end price and care) and seemed to not know what they were getting into. Not a best comparison, but $$ seems like a motivator for better care, but it seems that the color morph sulcatas may end up in rescue too?



You would think high price tags would equal better care and knowledge, but sadly that does not seem to be the case with any other animal. I doubt based on how it is with the other types of animals, that it would be any different with high cost tortoises. I have heard of radiateds being given up to rescues also as an example.


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## Tom (Nov 26, 2012)

Will, I'm not sure what you are asking here. I will share a few thoughts though.

I live in Southern CA. Other than Phoenix, I don't know of a place with more sulcatas, or better suited for sulcatas weather wise. I know literally dozens of friends, family, co-workers, neighbors, acquaintances, etc... that have sulcatas. Over the last 20 years, I have literally seen 100s of privately owned sulcatas. I found this forum in Jan of 2010. Prior to that I had never seen or heard of ANYONE ever losing a baby sulcata. Not a single one. Not me, not anybody. And I work with several vets who treat reptiles. They frequently call me for tortoise advice. I hear all about leopards with runny noses, CDTs with nasty nasal discharge, sick and dehydrated red foots living with russians, w/c russians that are sick from improper hibernation, but NEVER sick or dead sulcatas. I think this forum gives an overblown sense of how bad it really is. On a bad month we might see six of these. Most of the time this is from someone who is desperate, has waited til the last second, their baby is on death's door, and they turn to the internet as a last ditch effort to find some sort of magic pill to save their baby. This forum turns up for just about any internet search for anything tortoise related. When you consider how many people buy how many thousands of baby sulcatas all over the country every year, and how many we hear about dying, the number is a tiny fraction of one percent. A TINY fraction. Sure SOME of them die, and that's sad. I work very hard to prevent that. You see my post count. But I do not share the opinion of the others here about just how much of a problem it is.

I also don't see the problem with "overflowing rescues". Some rescues, not all, make it exceeding difficult, invasive and expensive to get a tortoise from them. These are the rescues that have more than they want. Other "rescues" like the one in AZ, take in free unwanted tortoises and then sell them for a high price, or sell the babies they get as a result of putting a ton of mixed sexes in the same pens. Sensible rescues have no trouble placing them. We have a member here who is a perfect example. I have seen about a half a dozen large ones turn up at my local animal shelter in the last few years. They disappear within minutes of becoming available for adoption.

The laws of supply and demand apply to sulcatas just the same as they do any other species. If there were sooooo many and the "problem" were sooooooo bad, then how come every one who produces them by the dozens, has no problem moving them. The market demands them. People will rise up to meet that demand. I breed because: #1. It was a goal of mine when I started with the species back in the early 90's. #2. I don't agree that there is a problem, YET. #3. I wish to provide buyers with a healthy alternative to the usual "dry" ones. #4. I need babies to run my experiments on, and the things that some other breeders do, or don't do, mess them all up. I've seen introduced diseases, incubation media impaction, dehydration, eye problems, etc... When I produce my own, I see NONE of these problems EVER. #5. I find incubating sulcata eggs, and everything associated with it, to be good practice for when I start messin' with really important or endangered species. If I somehow make a mistake, or many mistakes, and lose every single egg from every single sulcata clutch for a whole year, there is not a big impact on the world. If I were to lose a whole clutch of platynota eggs, due to inexperience or a mistake, THAT would be a tragedy. People gotta learn somewhere. #6. I LOVE this species. I think they are great. I want everyone to be able to enjoy them as I do. They are easy, hardy, personable, curious, bold, very attractive, etc... Of course people should do their research first and understand what they are getting, but after that, I want them to be able to get one, and I wish to be able to provide them with a healthy one that is well started and will thrive with decent care.

Mine get sold or given to forum members, friends and family members, wholesaler friends, and word of mouth customers from past customers.

I do not wish to encourage more people to breed sulcatas, since so many people already are, but I don't have a problem with it if someone does. They just better be prepared to take responsibility for what they produce. If the market suddenly becomes flooded in the next few years, we might all end up sitting on some.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Nov 26, 2012)

Tom, it's difficult for me to keep on-topic. I guess if the thread had been labeled somewhat differently it may have been better.

I don't know that I do or don't see to many sulcatas, I hear lots of things, seen etc.

I also see that, like yourself, that they are in short "really cool" animals, and I like them. I don't have a place for them, given 50 acres I would have dozens as well as many for many other species too.

The point of the thread for me, in starting it, is that I see several interesting points of view here, based on knowledge and also emotional baggage. I'm interested in sorting those things out, not just regrading sulcatas but all the animals that are in "surplus" however that may be defined.

I agree with the '..... a $350.00 doorknob special sulcata'. "doorknob" being slang for a grossly pyramided animal that IMO ought to be euthanized.

Everyone here could be the tortoise guy or gal among their friends, and be offered many animals every year. I turn down animals I don't want frequently. I don't rescue, unless it's a species/individual I want. Then it will get some very good care.

So the point is to debate a topic that has no right answer, as debate brings forth critical thinking among opinions.

Will



Tom said:


> Will, I'm not sure what you are asking here. I will share a few thoughts though.
> 
> I live in Southern CA. Other than Phoenix, I don't know of a place with more sulcatas, or better suited for sulcatas weather wise. I know literally dozens of friends, family, co-workers, neighbors, acquaintances, etc... that have sulcatas. Over the last 20 years, I have literally seen 100s of privately owned sulcatas. I found this forum in Jan of 2010. Prior to that I had never seen or heard of ANYONE ever losing a baby sulcata. Not a single one. Not me, not anybody. And I work with several vets who treat reptiles. They frequently call me for tortoise advice. I hear all about leopards with runny noses, CDTs with nasty nasal discharge, sick and dehydrated red foots living with russians, w/c russians that are sick from improper hibernation, but NEVER sick or dead sulcatas. I think this forum gives an overblown sense of how bad it really is. On a bad month we might see six of these. Most of the time this is from someone who is desperate, has waited til the last second, their baby is on death's door, and they turn to the internet as a last ditch effort to find some sort of magic pill to save their baby. This forum turns up for just about any internet search for anything tortoise related. When you consider how many people buy how many thousands of baby sulcatas all over the country every year, and how many we hear about dying, the number is a tiny fraction of one percent. A TINY fraction. Sure SOME of them die, and that's sad. I work very hard to prevent that. You see my post count. But I do not share the opinion of the others here about just how much of a problem it is.
> 
> ...


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## Baoh (Nov 26, 2012)

Jacqui said:


> Will said:
> 
> 
> > DeanS, is it the mutt part, or is there some other basis for the breeding point of view. Those others that you mention tend to be more $$, with the resulting perceived owner interest should be greater. Would you break it out that way?
> ...



Not in terms of absolutes, as there are certainly "high-end" animals abandoned and/or neglected, too, but it seems like the proportion of abuse is worse for low-price creatures in general. When something is cheap, the emotional investment can be less and the ability to "replace" it makes for less wallet worry. It is sad, but it is what I tend to observe. I think this is sometimes better when someone spends a lot of time scraping the money together and does not act on a short-term impulse. There are, of course, plenty of exceptions.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Nov 26, 2012)

I see I used horrible grammar, but at the pet shop, people would buy monkeys, and about a month later be willing to sell, then give, them back to the pet shop. This is the late 60's and the monkeys cost $750.00 each, both wild caught and captive bred. Any how, yeah cost has an influence, but provides no certainty for care.

Tom pointed out an interesting idea, that even with best care possible and not sparing costs in time and $$, maybe best to have a learning curve with animals that are not as critically rare as others. 

Sometimes it is hard to value doing things well from the get go, and not having that learning curve, in that informed people, who get informed first and the animal second don't really appreciate how in some sense, all tortoises can be difficult captives. I had a lesson or two along the way, and now look at individuals when they are captives. I don't see species xyz or whatever first. I learn the individual, even 1000 lab boxes with five mice each, learn the individual.

Will


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## Tom (Nov 26, 2012)

As a monkey and ape trainer, as well as a tortoise keeper, I don't think the two are comparable. The reason for a monkey being returned was almost certainly behavioral, while the reason for bad tortoise husbandry would not.

About your last paragraph, I agree with learning the individual. For me, part of that entails extrapolating what I know of the species in general.

You have certainly succeeded in making some interesting tortoise conversation here Will.


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## Neal (Nov 26, 2012)

Interesting question you raise up here. I don't have much to add to the debate side of things, but just an interesting observation....over the past year or so, I've spoken with and met a lot of local tortoise breeders that mainly keep to themselves. At least two of these people have groups of sulcatas that are pumping out 400 babies a year...a lot of the others I've met are producing somewhere in the 200 range. I would imagine that some of these have to be going overseas...what's a reasonable estimate for those that die young...50%? 75%? Even if only 10% make it past the "fragile hatchling stage" that's still A LOT of tortoises that live on.


The two people I recall who are producing the larger numbers have both told me they wholesale them to people in California.


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## RedfootsRule (Nov 26, 2012)

I can't quite put my finger on what your asking. What happens to all these sulcata's, or is it ethical/humane to breed them? About the ethics of breeding, heres my POV.
I've toyed with the idea of breeding sulcata's for a couple of years now. My 26-inch male sulcata has always seemed lonely, I've often though he would enjoy a girlfriend. Also, I would love the experience....30-40 hatchlings to raise; boy it would be a handful, but rather entertaining, and definitely a learning experience. But I always come back to one point; I see way to often what happens to these sulcata's. For example; my aunt works at a pet store. A few months ago, someone dropped off a 6-7 inch sulcata. The shell was extremely flattened with pyramided scutes from progressed MBD.
The point is, one in ten thousand people are actually willing to give them the care they deserve, being that they are such a large tortoise. I breed red-foots (a rather manageable tortoise on the scale of care difficulty) and I never let them go to buyers without a very in-depth care sheet and about 10 emails back and forth. I would be horrified of rehoming sulcatas.
However, in my opinion, it applies a lot more to regular sulcatas. Those who breed ivory's, albino's, all of these different color torts worth $1000 and up; these tortoises are much more likely to get the care they deserve. Now, obviously this isn't a given, but someone getting a tortoise like this is likely to more know what they're getting into.

If your asking what happens to all of the sulcatas, my guess would be 1% live on to be healthy, happy tortoises, another 20% actually survive with MBD, the rest all die off. Forgive me if that sounds outlandish (it very well is) its just a guess.


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## Tom (Nov 26, 2012)

Peter, did you read what I wrote? What are you basing these numbers on? 1 in 10,000 get they care they deserve? 1% survive? I have observed about the exact opposite. Of the several dozen sulcatas that live near me with family, friends and neighbors, ALL of them get excellent care. Every single one. They have large enclosures, good diets, and proper temps. I can't recall any that don't. I know of one breeder that keeps his babies too dry, but that is a different can of worms, and I'm working on him. He still grows all sorts of good food, has heated shelters and takes excellent care of his tortoises.

Not trying to pick on you, it's just that I hear these sort of things form all sorts of people and it just does not line up with what I have seen anywhere in the country. Where on earth are 99% of babies dying? Except for the few that I have necropsied in the name of science and learning, I have not personally seen any of them die. Of the few dozen in my area that I have seen grow since hatchlings, not a single one has died, much less 99%. Pyramiding is a different question, but death? It's not happening with anyone that I know, outside of the few cases we see that are literally all over the country here the forum. I just don't see how the numbers between to experienced tortoise keepers could be so different. You say 99% die, while I see that 100% have survived. You say that 1 in 10,000 get the care they deserve while I see that all of the ones I know of are getting good care. Talk to me man. Tell me what I'm missing here.


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## acrantophis (Nov 26, 2012)

emysemys said:


> All you have to do is read all the "My baby sulcata is sick" threads that are posted here from new members to realize what a big problem this (that the babies die) must be in the world outside the Forum.
> 
> The zoo in my town refers all "will you take my tortoise" calls they receive to me. I'm a pretty small operation, but I'd say about half the sulcatas I take in came from a call to the zoo first. (Zoos don't want your tortoises, folks).
> 
> ...



I'm with you, Yvonne, to a point. Just as iguanas and Burmese pythons in the 90's. People bought these giants because they were cheap. 
I ran a small iguana rescue for 10 years during that period. And would place these animals only in suitable homes. These animals, like tortoises, are large robust reptiles with specific and expensive requirements. Their price should reflect that. An iguana should cost $500. So should Burms, sulcatas, leopards torts, giant monitors, etc... 
Just like the diamond industry, we need a mysterious mafia-like organization dictating the value and price of captive bred reptile species. While also deeming who can or cannot release their offspring, and at which seasons. Each reptile carries a pedigree of parents and individual attributable quality. Just sayin ;-)


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## RedfootsRule (Nov 26, 2012)

Tom,

(I didn't say 99% die, I was guessing more 70%-80%)

Of all members on this forum, from my observations, your a sulcata expert. I'm pretty amazed about how the people around you take care of their sulcatas (I can't help but think, however, being that they're your friends and family, they learn from you the proper care). As I said, what I said is by far outlandish; I've definitely never done a national survey, its just a guess of mine. As my signature says, its my opinion, based on my experience. My experience would be based on all of the sulcata hatchlings in the pet stores around me, kept on sand with 0% humidity, fed a diet of lettuce and carrots. All of the torts I see on craigslist for sale with pyramiding/MBD. "His shell's a little disformed". I guess it's different on the east coast then the west coast.
Judging by the amount of misinformation on the internet, however, and the difficulty to properly provide for these giant tortoises, I definitely believe that a large percent of them end up dead. My end opinion of all I've seem in the animal world: people are irresponsible. Take all of the cats/dogs for example. It was sooo cute as a kitten/puppy, but now its grown up, chewing/spraying on my furniture because I didn't train it correctly, so now I'm giving it away. My opinion has always been, you took the commitment, you don't get to throw them aside like dead batteries. Nothing infuriates me more.
I would definitely assume (and have seen myself) this applies to sulcatas. When they're bought from pet stores, the care sheets are out-dated, misinformed, and plain wrong (again, just what I've seen from the pet stores near me). But people follow them, because your average person believes the pet store is right. So, when the sulcata is raised on an extremely limited diet, lacking variety or proper nutrition, it will die.
Forgive me for the "80% die". Its extremely assumptuos and undoubtedly wrong. Many, many more probably live. But I still believe that only a small percent end up to live on to be healthy, happy tortoises.


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## zulu (Nov 26, 2012)

I have always wondered where all the babies go. I just can't believe the majority of them are still alive. Over the past 15 or so years I have lived In Indiana, Illinois, and Florida, and have always had a local pet store near by that had an almost constant supply of 10-20 sulcata hatchlings at any time, yet I have never actually met anyone who lives near me who owns an adult. I know I do not go out of my way to let people know I have one for fear it will be stolen. Does everyone have a secret tortoise in their backyard?


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## Yvonne G (Nov 27, 2012)

Tom:

I think probably the norm is more like what happened to yours and (was it Neal or Dean)'s Sudanese babies.


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## Baoh (Nov 27, 2012)

Tom said:


> Peter, did you read what I wrote? What are you basing these numbers on? 1 in 10,000 get they care they deserve? 1% survive? I have observed about the exact opposite. Of the several dozen sulcatas that live near me with family, friends and neighbors, ALL of them get excellent care. Every single one. They have large enclosures, good diets, and proper temps. I can't recall any that don't. I know of one breeder that keeps his babies too dry, but that is a different can of worms, and I'm working on him. He still grows all sorts of good food, has heated shelters and takes excellent care of his tortoises.
> 
> Not trying to pick on you, it's just that I hear these sort of things form all sorts of people and it just does not line up with what I have seen anywhere in the country. Where on earth are 99% of babies dying? Except for the few that I have necropsied in the name of science and learning, I have not personally seen any of them die. Of the few dozen in my area that I have seen grow since hatchlings, not a single one has died, much less 99%. Pyramiding is a different question, but death? It's not happening with anyone that I know, outside of the few cases we see that are literally all over the country here the forum. I just don't see how the numbers between to experienced tortoise keepers could be so different. You say 99% die, while I see that 100% have survived. You say that 1 in 10,000 get the care they deserve while I see that all of the ones I know of are getting good care. Talk to me man. Tell me what I'm missing here.



Proximity-related myopia. None of us can see all of them everywhere. You already decided how things are in your concept of this. Most fairground goldfish, five-and-dime RES of days past, and green anoles also go the way of compost after forms of neglect or mistakes in care take effect. Plenty of these sulcata babies also end up in states with a sulcata-intolerable winter. That decreases the convenience of looking after them and increases the probability that keepers/buyers will slip up. Lots of folks let the house heating run a little cooler to save money. It bugs my fiancee and I do not enjoy it because I tend to run hot, but that is part of my responsibility. That is a readily found issue impacting their well-being. Many buyers/keepers are apartment dwellers, which takes more doing to provide an enclosure with more limitations on space. People may be less likely to replace a $40 MVB frequently for their $40 sulcata, thereby adding an additional negative impact. Diets of iceberg lettuce are not uncommon. Giving them no drinking water source is not uncommon. Placing them on desiccating pellet substrates that also give poor purchase for muscle development is not uncommon. Not providing minerals is common. They can be seen as expensive.

The list is larger than this.


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## shellysmom (Nov 27, 2012)

The people I know in the Sarasota-Bradenton area who work at sanctuaries, zoos, rescues, wildlife rehabs, animal shelters, etc., say they receive requests "all the time" to take sub-adult and adult sulcatas. I don't know specifically how many requests that is, but it's definitely common here. I always wonder what actually happens to all the tortoises after they are refused by the rescues. Do people just let them go somewhere, or try harder to find new homes for them? Who knows...

And, judging by all of the sickly and deformed sulcatas TRN finds on Craig's List every week, I would venture to *guess* that is just the tip of the iceberg, and that a significantly large number of these animals die in captivity before reaching adulthood. Yvonne has a great point. It seems like every day, there are at least a handful of posts from concerned new tort owners that their animals are sick. These are the smart people, the ones who see a problem and are resourceful enough to reach out to TFO or somewhere else for help. Think of all the dummies out there who have torts and don't even know the difference between one that is healthy and sick? I see that heartbreaking stuff everyday, and I'm not even looking very hard.


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## Tom (Nov 27, 2012)

Interesting all the different perspectives on this. We've all seen the bad stuff. No reasonable person will argue that SOME of the thousands of sulcatas produced annually are not raised or cared for well. The unanswerable question is: How many? It seems most people think it is a lot worse than I do. Over the years I have certainly seen multiple examples of every bad thing that has been pointed out, but I have seen far far more that we're well cared for and have a good life. I discover new ones all the time. My job puts me in contact with a new crew of 100-200 people several times a week. Frequently one of my tortoise shirts or hats will strike up a tortoise conversation. The vast majority of the stories have happy endings. I also worked retail for around 8 years. Sure we had the occasional idiot, but most people wanted and took our advice and had healthy tortoises. I already recounted what happens at our local animal shelters. Large sulcatas are adopted literally the day they become available, and very few come through there in the course of a year. 

My next question then is: What are we doing about it? I sure spend a lot of my time trying to correct the very problems that Baoh enumerated. Some people think the solution is to stop breeding them. That will never happen. Eventually, the very sentiment that is being expressed here, the sentiment that I don't agree with, will probably result in the government getting involved, and that will NOT solve the problem, nor will it make anyone who keeps tortoises happy. I suggest we solve our own problems from within. This has worked very well for the SCUBA industry. Can't get your tanks filled without a NAUI or PADI card, yet there is no law that says they can't fill them for you. I'd love to see some sort of industry wide guidelines put into place and followed before the government gets involved. ... but that's a whole new thread...


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## Yvonne G (Nov 27, 2012)

In my opinion, one good solution to the baby-sulcatas-die problem is to make sure each baby sulcata goes to a new home with a GOOD care sheet. A couple years ago the pet industry was mandated to pass out care sheets when they sold animals and birds. They (pet stores) did this ok for a while, but they don't do it any more. And, if you're a pet store or in the pet selling industry, make sure your employees read and understand the care for each animal you sell. So much bad info is passed along to new animal keepers.


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## yagyujubei (Nov 27, 2012)

When I was a kid red eared sliders were very cheap. Every kid had one or more. I never saw one over a year old. I would guess that thousands upon thousands died. Green iguanas - same thing. Anoles - same thing. Why would anyone think that sulcatas would fare any differently? Are there thousands upon thousands of sulcatas in the US? There should be. If not were are they? Have people all of a sudden changed? Are we better than we were? Why don't any of my friends know anyone else with tortoises?


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## Tom (Nov 27, 2012)

yagyujubei said:


> Are there thousands upon thousands of sulcatas in the US?
> 
> Why don't any of my friends know anyone else with tortoises?




Yes there are. I have heard estimates of a million or more. I don't know what the percentage is, but it seems like a third of the backyards in the Phoenix area have at least one sulcata. Pretty similar around me. My little dirt road community has around 12 houses. 3 of us have sulcatas. And two have DTs.


For your second question: My guess is your climate. It is not easy to house large tortoises with frozen winters. I wouldn't do it if I lived there. I'd keep small species that could live outside all summer and then hibernate all winter. Just my preference, but judging from your question, I am not alone in my thinking. I have friends and family in your state, and none of them have tortoises or know much about them.


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## TylerStewart (Nov 27, 2012)

The problem with basing any of these "statistics" on "I need help" posts in a forum is that the people with perfectly healthy sulcatas or other torts don't come on the forum and say "my sulcata is doing great." If they did, there would be 100 new threads a day saying just that. For every one you see someone posting with a problem (almost all related to improper care) there's 100+ that are doing just fine. The ones you see on Craigslist that are bumpy or that get turned in to rescues are coming from the people that are less than enthusiastic about the care (lazy owner's care = easily given away once it gets too big). I've come across sulcatas in backyards here in Vegas that I never knew were here even while helping a friend move or whatever, and all of them are strong as an ox, mostly with very smooth pretty shells. These people have no interest in announcing it to the world. If it was struggling, they more likely would "look to the world (or TFO)" for help, giving the impression that all these sulcatas are having problems.


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## Tom (Nov 27, 2012)

Thank you Tyler for articulating this so well.

You say 100+ for every person asking for help. I estimate it much higher, based on what I've seen and how many are sold every year. Of course all of us are just guessing, but my guess would be 1000 or more healthy ones that are doing just fine for every one that someone comes here looking for help.


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## Baoh (Nov 27, 2012)

"60% of the the time, it works every time."


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## Tim/Robin (Nov 27, 2012)

Breed em!!!! There can NEVER be too many tortoises. I agree with Tom and Tyler. There is an entire world of healthy thriving tortoises outside TFO. TFO doesn't even represent a tiny fraction of the number of keepers around.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Nov 27, 2012)

acrantophis' idea for secret tortoise police is sorta a funny way to do the SCUBA tank fill situation. One deal with that though (I guess) is that a dive shop could be sued for wrongful death if a diver passed away. I can't imagine that with a pet.

The 1:100 ratio of bad result to good result is kinda an attractive response. It seems to be a corollary to the idea that for every one customer who complains about service, 100 were happy, but did not fill out the customer feedback form. But how many people would want to share post death stories? 

The low price does make the sulcatas a throw-away novelty to many folks. I base this on so many consumer items I see at curbside on trash day. We would be banking on peoples' values, the value that a living thing deserves some quality to life. I think this (TFO) is the choir, so it's hard to believe how little so many people who would buy a pet would do so without corresponding values.

I keep thinking, as I read so many interesting POV here, about the iguana calls at the zoo I worked at. So many people DID know the correct care, based on care sheets, and what they read, but were just lazy, and used minimal care, hoping they had an animal that would thrive anyways. On the few sulcata or other large tortoise calls we might get, I would suggest that even though sulcata are a bit smaller than the zoo's island giants, the owner ought to look at them as needed that kind of space etc. as the zoo provided for the island giants. That message connected well, by the "aha" I would get on the phone, don't know about the result.

One big difference between sulcatas and the other big herps, let alone dogs etc, that get out of hand, is that as brute as a sulcata may be, most people just don't see a dangerous animal when they look at a tortoise. 

I think the price thing would be good, but it ain't the American way, and the collective TFO sulcata breeders' association would not be a powerful enough oligopoly to make it work. If I bred them, I would undercut your price, I am not special that way. 

Sulcata are THE CHEAP tortoise, not even PetSamrt 'on sale' Russians are for less. So $$ price and the death of sulcatas may just be the philosophical "price" for the cohort of new tortoise owners in the world. I would seek that all those people have a good experience, but that zoo phone recall, suggests to me, that the good experience barrier may not dis-clude the death of the pet.

There are several other interesting topics that have been re-opened or sprung new here in this thread. DeanS hit a very interesting one with the "mutt" POV. I tend to get it, as a POV, and can see how among this choir it could gain alot of traction. I always get my cat or dog from a shelter, so I sorta like that kind of mutt. I am quite the opposite with tortoises, but I do use 'scientific' POV as to whether there are species, subspecies, or clines. And yeah, I know that caused many issues in the Indotestudo genus.

Will


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## RedfootsRule (Nov 27, 2012)

As Baoh said, its all promixity-related. We all have our own experiences within our own area's. We really need several experienced members in every state to know what actually happens.....
After what shellys said, I believe maybe the situation is worse in Florida? Especially south florida....Sadly, the phrase "south florida scum-bag" was not coined out of humor; judging by ads on local classifieds sites for all animals, not just tortoises, a majority of people do not care correctly for there animals. They very likely may know the proper care, but they have no desire to give it.

I really don't think there is much we can do about this, sadly, besides more and more rescues to take all of the unwanted tortoises. As you said Tom, the last thing wanted would be the government involved. And we will definitely never stop breeding them. What some would call a solution is to require a license for breeding, but it wouldn't work. Just like cats; many rescues think we should require a license for breeding and owning, but its just another step of diminishing our rights.

Tim, I would definitely stay there could be TOO many tortoises. There are WAY to many cats and dogs in this world, the result of irresponsible breeding. It could happen with tortoises just as easily.


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## TylerStewart (Nov 28, 2012)

RedfootsRule said:


> I really don't think there is much we can do about this, sadly, besides more and more rescues to take all of the unwanted tortoises. As you said Tom, the last thing wanted would be the government involved. And we will definitely never stop breeding them. What some would call a solution is to require a license for breeding, but it wouldn't work. Just like cats; many rescues think we should require a license for breeding and owning, but its just another step of diminishing our rights.
> 
> Tim, I would definitely stay there could be TOO many tortoises. There are WAY to many cats and dogs in this world, the result of irresponsible breeding. It could happen with tortoises just as easily.



The difference is, there is no overpopulation of tortoises in shelters, contrary to popular belief. The shelters that have tortoises "stacking up" are charging a retail price to let them go. The big rescue in Phoenix that was claiming to have hundreds of sulcatas and everyone was crying about how sad this was, I sent an e-mail to them saying I'd be there Saturday with a trailer to pick up 40 of them, and they basically responded "Great! They're $10 per pound (or whatever the dollar amount was, it wasn't cheap)." Tortoises are cheap to feed (unlike dogs and cats) and easy to house in large numbers in one area (unlike dogs and cats). As much as some of us want there to be, there's no tortoise crisis here!


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## Edna (Nov 28, 2012)

TylerStewart said:


> The difference is, there is no overpopulation of tortoises in shelters, contrary to popular belief. The shelters that have tortoises "stacking up" are charging a retail price to let them go. The big rescue in Phoenix that was claiming to have hundreds of sulcatas and everyone was crying about how sad this was, I sent an e-mail to them saying I'd be there Saturday with a trailer to pick up 40 of them, and they basically responded "Great! They're $10 per pound (or whatever the dollar amount was, it wasn't cheap)." Tortoises are cheap to feed (unlike dogs and cats) and easy to house in large numbers in one area (unlike dogs and cats). As much as some of us want there to be, there's no tortoise crisis here!



I'm going to risk saying that the line between some rescue operations and hoarders is a thin one.


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## TylerStewart (Nov 28, 2012)

Edna said:


> I'm going to risk saying that the line between some rescue operations and hoarders is a thin one.



There very well may be, and I'm certainly not going to argue that point, but I don't know of any "rescues" that are filled with tortoises and are also eager and actively trying to find them good homes. I'm sure there's a few in the Northeast probably where there's less backyards that they can be easily turned loose in, but generally speaking and certainly when compared to dogs & cats, there'd be no comparison.


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## RedfootsRule (Nov 28, 2012)

Tyler, it is true that there isn't much of a stack-up of tortoises in rescues now; I'm talking about in the future. That's my comparison of dogs and cats; if something isn't done, there could be within a few years. However, at the same time, there might not be. People don't give the tortoises proper care because they're cheap, and then the tortoises die, resulting in no reduction in demand.
Nobody here "wants" there to be a tortoise crisis. The debate is more whether there IS one. Thats why members are sharing their experiences and opinions on what happens to all of the babies. From my POV, a large percentage of them receive bad care and live unhealthy lives, or die. However, other members seem to see a lot better care of tortoises.


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