# Do tortoises get bored?



## Dagashi (Feb 20, 2012)

Just wondering if tortoises get bored? our current enclosure doesn't have much things to explore. It's kept quite bare for now. But we noticed that whenevery we introduce new things.. they love to explore it! 

That and when we took them out to the garden for a bit during a hot afternoon, they went straight for a pile of rocks (some rocks were as big as them) and started climbing! Galaticus even attempted to climb over a particularly high root and was hanging on his two fronts trying to go over. 

We took them away but they insisted on heading to that area everytime they had a chance. Do star torts climb? should we provide some sort of ramp/pile of rocks or mental stimulation for them? 

Thanks!


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## JoesMum (Feb 20, 2012)

Most tortoises will climb given the opportunity and the sooner they learn to do so safely the better.

Joe is an experienced mountaineer and is never happier than when he has something to scramble over. I wouldn't describe him as getting bored, he just likes being at heights. Joe seems to deliberately go out of his way to scramble over bricks when he's having a stomp.

When you're about and can pop your head round the corner to notice if there have been any capsizes, leave larger rocks or bricks in the enclosure for mountaineering practice. If you are going to be out for any length of time, I'd take them out until you are confident that your rescues are unlikely to be needed.


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## Dagashi (Feb 20, 2012)

I see much thanks.. we get a bit worried for them climbing but will oversee their climbs. Litttle mountaineers they will be! 

I was just worried becuase I see my torts sleeping most of the time indoors.. especially right after they eat.. we noticed that one or the other will quickly eat and scurry to the favourite corner and "reserve" the area to sleep. but the one "reserving" the area is not asleep and is waiting for the other one to come over. 

The reason is the other one will push the one reserving the place so that he can have the place to sleep instead. so the one reserving the place needs to be awake to ensure that he's not pushed away. This happens almost every night (for the past 3 nights) since they discovered the corner. 

Today they found a corner each. But generally they enjoy sleeping alot.. I'm not sure if this is normal? 

(they are about 2 1/2 inches big)


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## JoesMum (Feb 20, 2012)

Sleeping right after they eat is normal. Torts eat and then bask in the heat to digest their food. If you measure temperatures around their enclosure, you'll probably find the favoured corner is either a little warmer or a little darker than other places. (Possibly both)

Territorial disputes are not unusual either. Most tort species are solitary in the wild, so sharing isn't an issue.

As for activity levels. Tortoises neat heat and light to be active. The exact conditions depend on the species, but for med types you need to be simulating a bright summer's day. Basking at 35C under the heat lamp/ceramic heater, ambient air temp of lows 20s C. With the all essential UV

Many owners, including me, report lower activity levels in the winter months even indoors. I can't quite get my head round it, but I assume that even with artificial light and heat the torts seem to know the world is a colder, darker place outside.

As long as drinking, pooping and (both of the the in the bath probably!), eating and weight are normal... I would not be too concerned.


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## cemmons12 (Feb 20, 2012)

It seems to me that when my sully Cooper ggets bored, he will find his cuttle bone and tear into it for awhile, and yesterday for the very first time he started moving his hide box around. But 90% of the time he will just run back and forth and hit his cage with his shell until I get him out and let him go for a walk then sit him on the bed, and after a few minutes of finding a comfy spot he will go to sleep on the bed until I wake him up to go back into his habitat. Don't know if its bordom or what, but he really seems to like our interaction and if its right or wrong who here is to say? But this is how he has been raised since he was 2 months old, and he seems very happy when he is just laying with me on the bed, he stares at me till he goes to sleep while I watch tv till I fall asleep!  its a good time! Have a great day!


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## Katherine (Feb 20, 2012)

To your question about boredom I am going to go with yes. Tortoises definitely get bored. They are infinite explorers and if given too small an area or no visual barriers they can quickly bore and pace their enclosure walls growing stressed while looking for a way out into the exciting world. They do not need much to entertain them, but definitely will appreciate you fostering their inner explorer. This is one of the main reasons I advocate and engage my tortoises in "forage style" feedings if giving them food items other than their grasses. Giving them incentive to root around for food emulates a natural environment, keeps them active, and gives them something stimulating to do.


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## Kerryann (Feb 20, 2012)

I think my girl does because she rearranges her cage daily, stalks me whenever I am near her cage, and loves to explore/escape when she is doing her exercise time.


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## Madkins007 (Feb 20, 2012)

Getting 'bored' is sort of a trick question- we may be projecting our mammalian opinions on their reptilian brain.

However, all animals that have been studied show better brain development when they have the opportunity to explore, deal with challenges, solve problems, etc. Just being exposed to new things can have a positive impact.

To help this, zoos and others use 'enrichments' that are designed to enrich their daily existence. This can be toys, unique or unusual foods, foods presented in odd or tricky ways, parts of the enclosure that are changed around periodically, etc. 

The best enrichments for tortoises seem to be things like:
- cage mates for some species- another tortoise of the same species, hermit crabs, etc.
- hidden foods, like mushrooms tucked in odd corners. Foods 'hidden' in shells or rinds count as well
- bundles of greens hung from the side of a tank
- unusual foods
- some tortoises respond well to toys, like balls they cannot easily bite- usually in light or bright colors
- hills, holes, different substrates, places to dig or climb, etc. Most tortoises seem to enjoy clambering on rock and debris piles.
- one of the absolute best enrichments is a BIG, naturalistic well-planted outdoor habitat with sun, burrows/hides, and lots and lots of space. Especially when the keeper uses the whole space and spreads out foods and so on


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## cemmons12 (Feb 20, 2012)

Madkins007 said:


> Getting 'bored' is sort of a trick question- we may be projecting our mammalian opinions on their reptilian brain.
> 
> However, all animals that have been studied show better brain development when they have the opportunity to explore, deal with challenges, solve problems, etc. Just being exposed to new things can have a positive impact.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the interesting ideas! I want to put some sort of ball in with Cooper to see how he will react to it.


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## Turtlechasers (Feb 20, 2012)

Yes tortoises get bored... More over tortoises are intelligent... They learn... Many times if one of my tortoises finds a way out/over, they continue to go back and repeat until it is changed... They have a sense of time... I use to supplement my tortoises after work everyday. Time usually about 4:30... When I retired and had more free time I notice that my tortoises would begin to mobilize to the feeding area as yearly as 30 minutes from feeding time... Because of my nasty nature I began to supplement at different times during the day, and began scattering food, at first this seemed to confuse them... Now they seem to come only when they see me... My wife doesn't feed, they don't react to her in the same way... In short tortoises at least mine are always looking for trouble to get into... They do need to be stimuted with new things from time to time...


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## JoesMum (Feb 20, 2012)

Learn yes... Intelligent... Hmmm! Can't say Joe is the brightest spark in the fire


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 20, 2012)

I think tortoises can get bored, or at least stir crazy. If my male Russian tortoise doesn't get to go outside, he often does "laps" around his enclosure. Sometimes it's because he's hungry and looking for food, but sometimes it's just because he wants to be let out. I can only attribute this to frustration at not being able to go outside, or if you like, boredom.


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## Turtlechasers (Feb 20, 2012)

JoesMum said:


> Learn yes... Intelligent... Hmmm! Can't say Joe is the brightest spark in the fire



JoesMum
Yes intelligent... Set up a test with your friend... Set a maze and watch how quick your friend will solve it to get to the food...


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 20, 2012)

Turtlechasers said:


> JoesMum
> Yes intelligent... Set up a test with your friend... Set a maze and watch how quick your friend will solve it to get to the food...



Yes, but pit a turtle against a mouse or a rat in maze-running, and the turtle will lose. Unlike in the race against the Hare, a test of intelligence against birds or mammals is one contest the Tortoise would not win.


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## JoesMum (Feb 20, 2012)

I've known my friiend a very long time. All animals have the ability to learn and figure things out otherwise they would not survive.

Joe's intelligence is definitely not that of the highest order. He wouldn't figure a maze in the way a rodent or bird might.

He tends to assume that if his head fits, the rest of him will... and has given us a few giggles over the years as he's wedged himself in a gap unable to reverse.

His intelligence is driven by a desire for heat, food or sex, not necessarily in that order!


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## Turtlechasers (Feb 20, 2012)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> Turtlechasers said:
> 
> 
> > JoesMum
> ...



That's comparing apples and grapes... 
In that order comparing them to a stone or block of wood...
I am just saying... that they learn, and not through repetition... 
Mine have solved a problem once and then when represented with the problem again solve it the same way... Mine usually keep trying until them get what they want...


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## JoesMum (Feb 20, 2012)

That's what I was saying; they possess a degree of intelligence. 

They ain't intelligent in the grand scale of things though. My tropical fish learn too, that doesn't make them intelligent in high order terms either.

And with that, I'll have the ontelligence to bow out of this and head off to bed. It's nearly 11pm here. Night all


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## Kerryann (Feb 20, 2012)

This sounds almost like the discussion I had when I called my husband to tell him, I told him she looked sad. He told me that she doesn't have the facial muscles to look happy or sad. Medically I am sure he is right but the look on her little face was definitely sad. After I put in a bulb within a few minutes she was up and running around stalking me like normal. 
Sometimes we see our animals how we want to see them.


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## Madkins007 (Feb 20, 2012)

OK, if we are going to discuss animal intelligence, I feel it important to remind those in the discussion that no one has ever found a decent IQ test for humans that is not culturally biased. Finding a definition and test for animal IQ is much, much harder.

Running mazes, for example, is a great test for rodents- they often solve maze-like problems to deal with burrows and the spaces in houses, etc. Tortoise rarely need to deal with mazes- but they can certainly learn a safe path to food over time. Running a timed maze is a dumb test for tortoises.

They obviously can learn and have some degree of intelligence.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 20, 2012)

Turtlechasers said:


> That's comparing apples and grapes...
> In that order comparing them to a stone or block of wood...
> I am just saying... that they learn, and not through repetition...
> Mine have solved a problem once and then when represented with the problem again solve it the same way... Mine usually keep trying until them get what they want...



It's not apples and grapes, because we all have brains. It's what our brains have evolved to do that matters. All vertebrates have the ability to learn to one degree or another, and when it comes to reptiles, I think turtles are among the brightest. They do have some ability to solve man-made mazes, and they can learn to recognize different foods and even individual people. But turtles are not adapted to solving the more complex problems that birds and mammals can.

Naturally, I don't hold this against them. I love turtles. They have many wonderful attributes, and they are fit enough to have survived for some 200 million years. But intelligence is not one of their strong suits. Not compared to birds and mammals, anyway.






Madkins007 said:


> OK, if we are going to discuss animal intelligence, I feel it important to remind those in the discussion that no one has ever found a decent IQ test for humans that is not culturally biased. Finding a definition and test for animal IQ is much, much harder.
> 
> Running mazes, for example, is a great test for rodents- they often solve maze-like problems to deal with burrows and the spaces in houses, etc. Tortoise rarely need to deal with mazes- but they can certainly learn a safe path to food over time. Running a timed maze is a dumb test for tortoises.
> 
> They obviously can learn and have some degree of intelligence.



I think looking at the brain is a great place to start. The brains of birds and mammals are much bigger than those of reptiles, and along with that size comes complexity, curiosity, and problem-solving ability, all of which have to do with intelligence.

As I said above, reptiles are amazing creatures, but their intelligence is limited. Indeed, it has to be, because they lack the metabolism to support a large brain. One of the secrets of reptilian survival is cold-bloodedness, which limits their activity, but also lowers their metabolism, allowing them to survive in environments where food is hard to come by. We birds and mammals are the opposite; being warm-blooded means we need lots of food, but it's worth it for us because it gives us the energy to support big brains. Without warm-bloodedness, intelligence bumps up against a glass ceiling, because it takes a fast metabolism to support the evolution and maintenance of a large brain.

Reptiles have many amazing adaptations, but they cannot compare to birds and mammals when it comes to intelligence, simply because they cannot energetically afford a big brain.


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## Madkins007 (Feb 20, 2012)

I'm with you 100% on this Geo, after all, our human brain basically uses a reptilian brain as its core, the old 'lizard brain', then has a mammalian brain wrapped around it, and the human brain wrapped around that. 

None of this means tortoises are dumb- they do recognize patterns, their food sources, etc. and they can solve a wide variety of puzzles and challenges. We just need to remember that it is REALLY easy for a human, especially emphatic people like we get in forums like this, to see their emotions and thoughts projected on their pets.


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## Kerryann (Feb 21, 2012)

This thread inspired me to get betty a new toy. She seems to like the dogs kong so I got her one of her own. She has already climbed on it like ten times.  Even if she isn't playing with it, at least she is getting exercise


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## Dagashi (Feb 21, 2012)

thanks for all the information! 

We'll definately be putting more stimulating ideas for them.. like a pile of rocks to climb.. some logs to wander over and mebbe more interesting toys for them to push (but they are kind small and weak I think.. they can only burrow so far) 

we take them out for exploring once in a while.. here's a picture of him enjoying his expedition. 

we look forward to finding a cuttlefish bone (we can't find that in Malaysia) so they can chew and trim their beaks. Also will update ideas on how to excite them.


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## LLLReptile (Feb 22, 2012)

Madkins - Loved your post(s)! The first one was almost exactly what I had in mind! 

Within the stores, we decorate cages and add things within them, and help customers determine ways to add enrichment to their animals' lives. What each particular species finds enriching differs, naturally, and what we do for tortoises differs from what we do for the lizards etc. Providing enrichment in the form of new cage decor, exercise out of the cage, outdoors time, and new food items are some awesome ways to keep your tortoise from becoming "bored". We find that we have little to no glass pacing when the tortoises are given enriched cages or enrichment in their day to day life, and encourage customers to incorporate these things into the captive care of their animals. 

This is one of my favorite topics; the captive environment for reptiles is often kept so bare because many commonly kept animals don't "need" to have larger or more elaborate cages, and many people miss out on some truly interesting behaviors and aspects of their animals because of it. 

Great topic!

-Jen


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## Madkins007 (Feb 22, 2012)

Jen- I assume you've seen "The Art of Keeping Snakes" (DE VOSJOLI, Phillippe. AVS Books 2004.) I LOVED that book- it gave me many great ideas for tortoises even though much of the book is not applicable to them.

I know tortoises can be challenging to make even semi-naturalistic- they hide a lot, need space, and bulldoze stuff in the habitat- but it always bothers me to see the empty box with a hide, couple of dishes, and maybe a plant. No wonder the animal is understimulated.


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## LLLReptile (Feb 22, 2012)

Madkins007 said:


> Jen- I assume you've seen "The Art of Keeping Snakes" (DE VOSJOLI, Phillippe. AVS Books 2004.) I LOVED that book- it gave me many great ideas for tortoises even though much of the book is not applicable to them.
> 
> I know tortoises can be challenging to make even semi-naturalistic- they hide a lot, need space, and bulldoze stuff in the habitat- but it always bothers me to see the empty box with a hide, couple of dishes, and maybe a plant. No wonder the animal is understimulated.



YES I loved that book, and as a matter of fact I believe all of our retail locations keep it in stock. 

Fortunately, in the store it is an assigned daily task to go through and at least spot clean each and every cage, so someone goes through and "re-sets" the cage with the tortoises every day. Bulldozing always happens, but we don't mind putting things back together again - which I think is part of what deters some keepers from adding more to their cages. I'll have to see if I can create some videos of tortoises engaging in enrichment activities at the stores to share. 

-Jen


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