# Concerned! NERD



## Redfoot NERD (Apr 17, 2010)

If for any reason any of you may think that I've been "overly" concerned - in the past - about 'husbandry' [ enclosure - temps - lighting - diet, etc. ] from whomever.. how I ( seemingly react ) respond at times ------ watch this!

I'm asking a specific Q? and would appreciate any specific objective responses and/or answers. 

I understand [ never accept ] the fact that there are those that love to research ( like as if they thrive on contradiction and confusion ) and analize til they're paralized..... and those that literally have said to me "I've kept ? species for 3 weeks.. so I do have some experience!". And post answers and advice that doesn't apply, matter, or is so detailed and confusing that it is virtually of no useful application. OR have absolutely no experience whatsoever with the species in Q?.. and any experience? they do have is not only 'short-term' but is with a tortoise from a different "HEMISPHERE"!

The Q? is: Do those that give "advice" know or care how important it is to have 'hands-on' experience to ensure the best care for any particular species of tortoise or turtle? 

Anyone else feel the same way????? This is not about 'wanting-to-be-heard' or trying to help or some other ego or emotionally driven mind-set. This is about 'what are the best "husbandry practices" for tortoises?'

I guess this is more than ONE Q? Generally speaking we love these critters that are tuff and resilient.. [ discounting 'abuse' before we acquire them ].. "Why are so many having so many health issues with their tortoises?" Could it be the advice given?

I can only encourage anyone to insist on asking what experience ANY given 'care-giver' has!

Objective responses please?

Terry K


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## terryo (Apr 17, 2010)

Terry, I have raised boxies and water turtles for over 30 years. I did everything the natural way...never incubated eggs. If they hatched out there that was fine...if not..it was meant to be. Same with water turtles. Most RES eggs I threw out. Still I never give advice. Sometimes I tell what I do, but never say.."you should do this" or "my way is the best way". NEVER! Tortoises...I know nothing about. Having a Tortoise for two years gives me NO experience as far as I'm concerned. People can and should research what other experienced keepers are doing and then draw their own conclusions, and do what works best for them. But....how long does a person have to keep and raise animals before they are considered an experienced keeper? If a person raises something with great results...smooth...healthy for 10 years, and another keeper raises something for 25 years and still hasn't gotten it right...well, then you have to draw your own conclusions. Everyone should do research. Why should someone take only one persons advice? There are many breeders out there that have raised beautiful tortoises for many years, and each do something different. Research, and combining good information is the key to success....IMHO. Was this what you asked....or am I way off base?


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## Tom (Apr 17, 2010)

This subject came up when I first joined the forum a few months ago. It was one of the first posts that I responded to. I still feel the same way.

I see responders with a single tortoise that they've had for a year or two, giving advice, sometimes incorrect or about a different species, as if they have a lifetime of experience. I can't understand this. The benefit of this forum is being able to gain from the knowledge of experienced keepers like Yvonne, Maggie, GB, many others, and you, Terry K. The downside is that anybody, from anywhere in the world can throw in their two cents, even if they have no experience with what they are advising about. My response as to what to do about this would be "buyer beware".

Personally, I have no problem taking advice from someone who doesn't have experience with a species. Maybe they've read something somewhere that I haven't. As long as they don't pass themselves off as an experienced keeper, I don't have any problem with somebody making a suggestion based on the experience that they do have. I've kept redfoots in the past, but I don't feel comfortable giving advice on the specifics of diet or husbandry when there are other, much more experienced keepers here, that are much better qualified than me to answer. I wouldn't hesitate to offer general advice, however. For example, how to raise humidity or what substrates do what. I have many years of direct experience with different substrates and raising humidity in tortoise and reptile enclosures. I'm not however going to tell some one how to house an adult sulcata over winter in NY. I have no experience with this.

An answer from a first time leopard keeper with a hatchling is just going to carry less weight with me than an answer from Richard Fife. Its just that simple. I appreciate people trying to be helpful, I just think some people get a little carried away with it some of the time. I'm guilty of it too.


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## Redfoot NERD (Apr 17, 2010)

terryo said:


> Terry, I have raised boxies and water turtles for over 30 years. I did everything the natural way...never incubated eggs. If they hatched out there that was fine...if not..it was meant to be. Same with water turtles. Most RES eggs I threw out. Still I never give advice. Sometimes I tell what I do, but never say.."you should do this" or "my way is the best way". NEVER! Tortoises...I know nothing about. Having a Tortoise for two years gives me NO experience as far as I'm concerned. People can and should research what other experienced keepers are doing and then draw their own conclusions, and do what works best for them. But....how long does a person have to keep and raise animals before they are considered an experienced keeper? If a person raises something with great results...smooth...healthy for 10 years, and another keeper raises something for 25 years and still hasn't gotten it right...well, then you have to draw your own conclusions. Everyone should do research. Why should someone take only one persons advice? There are many breeders out there that have raised beautiful tortoises for many years, and each do something different. Research, and combining good information is the key to success....IMHO. Was this what you asked....or am I way off base?



TerryO.. you have enough experience raising a hatchling redfoot with a good/proper environment/enclosure.. with only 2 years experience! And I will refer anyone to you that has the desire to create a similar type habitat for their redfoot. Whether you know it or not you have covered the *basics* for keeping a redfoot hatchling and raising it up to become a smooth-shelled 2 year-old.... the most critical time in a redfoots life!!! Or any tortoise as far as that is concerned.

ALL hatchling tortoises have *basic* needs.. which vary from species to species. SOME *basics* are right for ALL hatchlings.. but ALL *basics* are not right for ALL hatchlings ------ and that's where years of experience comes in. [ that's not deep theology.. is it? ]

It's those that "paint-all-tortoises-with-the-same-brush" OR those that insist that ALL *basics* are good forever without considering
"updates". No need to elaborate on that one.. is there? ( 1 example? )

PRIME EXAMPLE - there are "websites" galore on how to raise sulcatas and redfoots, etc., etc. If you were raising a sulcata hatchling and didn't want it to look like 99% of all those you had seen on the internet.. and came upon Richard Fife's website FIRST and saw how his 2-3-4, etc. year-old hatchlings look.. it only makes good sense to follow his lead. He shows how his look.. he explains what he does ( differently ). The only reason anyone would "research" further is that they are curious what others say or they don't have anything better to do.. or they have been deceived into thinking - "If it works, don't fix it" - isn't true. 

So researching in 'most' cases shows how not to do it.

Sure there are a few breeders out there that produce different ( good looking hatchlings ) species and some even have their own caresheet! Ask them what 'their' caresheet produces after 2-3-4, etc. years! If they can't/won't produce results........... heed Tom's warning - "Buyer Beware!". 

NERD


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## chadk (Apr 17, 2010)

I just had a conversation with someone who had a sulcata hatchling from one of the guys mentioned above... His caresheet he passed along was very high level. The newbie owner of the new little tort had to make many assumptions and ended up with a little tort getting fairly pyramided at a young age. 

Was this because the breeder was wrong? Was this because the breeder did not now how to raise healthy torts? No. It came down to 1) the caresheet was not detailed enough and 2) the person trusted that what was given was all they needed to know. For example, the caresheet said nothing about humidity and the role it played in raising hatchlings. I was surprised at this, and poked around on his website. Sure enough, I find the info I was looking for, but it was not included in the main caresheet. And that is just one example. There was no details on UVA vs UVB and what kind of bulbs were recommended. And it recommends vegetables and commercial tort food. In context, this may not seem like a big deal, but for this newbie I was talking to, she had filled in the blanks the best she could and thought she was doing great.

That's why I love forums like this. The true experts and researches do the work, but aren't always great at passing the info along in an way the average new keeper is going to understand. It is like sitting for an hour listening a University Prof lecture, and just not getting it. Then you talk to a study partner after class and he is able to explain it in a way that makes perfect sense. And further, you are now armed with more info and able to ask some specific and deeper questions than you were before.

Also, one persons very detailed care sheet that works 100% for them, may not work so well for person B even if he follows it exactly as written. Why? Well, one reason may be that person A lives in a high humidity area on the gulf coast and raises everything outdoors. Another person lives in Arizona, and another in Alaska. Is there a one sized fits all approach? Well, yes and no. You have to get the basic concepts and adapt to your situation. It's like cooking. Some folks only know how to follow directions exactly as written. But they are disappointed at the results at times. They do not realize that slight variations in ingredients, variation in the type of stove used, variation in type of pan used, etc etc will change the results.


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## Madkins007 (Apr 17, 2010)

Redfoot NERD said:


> The Q? is: Do those that give "advice" know or care how important it is to have 'hands-on' experience to ensure the best care for any particular species of tortoise or turtle?
> 
> Anyone else feel the same way????? This is not about 'wanting-to-be-heard' or trying to help or some other ego or emotionally driven mind-set. This is about 'what are the best "husbandry practices" for tortoises?'



I think there are two sides to this question:

1. The role of the open forum.

This is an open forum, where anyone can ask, and anyone can answer (well, unless they are banned, etc.) There are benefits and problems with any such open forum as you have often pointed out.

It is up to the individual, in any open setting, to discern the good from the bad, or the right from the wrong. Even the Bible says "Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety." (Proverbs 11:14 KJV) 

In an open forum, each can share from their strengths, from their experience and research, and even from their mistakes. Sure, there is some trash and bad stuff, but how do you clear that out without messing up the benefits? 

2. Experience vs education.

Surely you are not suggesting that all of the 'old hands' agree on every detail? There are a lot of people who have successfully bred beautiful Red-foots who have their own systems and opinions- many of which are wildly at odds with other well-experienced keepers.

In fact, many experienced people- whether tortoise breeders, oil painters, or rocket scientists- are more experts in their own system than experts in the overall skill. For example, you are THE worlds top expert in the Terry Kilgore Method of Raising (and photographing) Red-foot Tortoises. 

While that is a cool thing, it does not automatically make you an expert in native habitat, digestive processes, taxonomy, calcium metabolism, carpentry, lighting physics, nutritional needs, or hundreds of other disciplines related to raising tortoises. That is not automatically a bad thing- no one is an expert in everything.

Education and research, however, is what helps us get better and better at this.

....................................

My question and challenge to you (and other breeders with many hatchlings) is why have you not done any research of your own?

You raise many beautiful tortoises. Have you ever actually tried them under controlled conditions with and without UVB to see if there is a benefit? Tested your diet against other published diets to see if one produces healthier animals?

Like you said- "this is about 'what are the best "husbandry practices" for tortoises". Imagine how cool it would be if you could say that you did actual, controlled, and well-designed research on some of these issues that people debate.

It is going to be years before I could do anything like that with my herd, if ever, but it would be SO COOL to be able to say "I KNOW this method of (lighting, diet, substrate, etc.) works because I did the research and here is the data- this group showed clear benefits as measured by this and this." It would be like Richard Fife and his pyramiding experiment.

Yeah, yeah. I know- this was a long reply and you really don't like long replies. Sorry!


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## Redfoot NERD (Apr 17, 2010)

I'm getting the responses I expected....... from those I expected..

NERD


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## Madkins007 (Apr 17, 2010)

Of course you are- you've asked this before. It is the definition of insanity to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result.


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## -EJ (Apr 17, 2010)

When I meet young gifted people who I know are going to make it one day... I always tell them to never let it go to your head. When it does and you find yourself thinking you actually are the expert... that is when all thinking ceases... and... ego kicks in. All rational thought goes out the window and it seems people think they can ride on the ego and not the actual knowledge that got them where they are.

Terry... you've reached that point a long time ago.

This is the old experience/knowledge debate. 

Sorry... I do a great deal of reading and networking. Recent experiences have been a disaster... but I learned from them.

Needless to say... experience can only go so far. Some are better at interpeting that experince than others... another point.

As I type this I seem to recall I answered in similar fashion the first time around.


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## RichardS (Apr 17, 2010)

Interesting thread. I'll weigh in and kick the hornets nest. 

There is nothing wrong with regurgitating information that has been read or heard, as long as the person doesn't pass himself off as an authority on the subject. I refuse to use the word expert, but I will get to that later. Undergraduate students have very little original thought. By and large, students read, take notes, go to lecture, and dump it all down on paper come exam time. That's all part of being a good student, whether we're talking, biology, business, or animal husbandry. Postgraduate and postdoctoral researcher is where the original stuff happens.

I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb by saying we all have one thing we all have in common, and that is we are all hobbyists. Some of us generate income by selling hatchlings, but few, if any, are professional breeders or tortoise farmers. I know there are a couple of retailers that participate on the board, but that's different. My point is, few people in the world can actually claim to be tortoise experts. Furthermore, real experts, never claim to be such. They don't have to, because there is nothing to prove. 

Advice given and received on the internet should be take with a grain of salt. These forums tend to generate a tremendous amount of group think based on the opinions of those who are perceived to be expert. How many of us have published a scientific paper? 

All that being said, online communities have advanced hobbies and generally educate those who are interested. Just understand that only a small fraction of those who own tortoise are involved with these forums. Millions of people own reptiles, how many members does this site have? Some of us will always remain legends in our own mind.


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## -EJ (Apr 17, 2010)

I gotta disagree with you there. I've met quite a few... kids... some in highschool and some in college who you knew would become herpetologists. Some became respected herpetologists without the degree...

Disagree with you on the second point also... I've met professionals in the herpetology 'business'... who have no interest in herps but are fantastic 'herpetologists'... not many... but a few. I know quite a few that do not keep reptiles. I ask these people a great deal of question...

Totally agree with you on the third point...

On the fourth point... no desire to. I asked a prominent editor of about 60+ herp journals (his number, not mine) if he actually understood the language that they use in journals... he said no (I know he was fibbing and being nice but he understood the point). He further explained that 'that is the language they use'. The current journals are more 'common person' friendly. Anyone can write for any journal... (ask AH). The key is passing mustard.

Final point... on target. I'm trying to get this point across on another forum.



RichardS said:


> Interesting thread. I'll weigh in and kick the hornets nest.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with regurgitating information that has been read or heard, as long as the person doesn't pass himself off as an authority on the subject. I refuse to use the word expert, but I will get to that later. Undergraduate students have very little original thought. By and large, students read, take notes, go to lecture, and dump it all down on paper come exam time. That's all part of being a good student, whether we're talking, biology, business, or animal husbandry. Postgraduate and postdoctoral researcher is where the original stuff happens.
> 
> ...


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## Redfoot NERD (Apr 17, 2010)

I asked if we could get those with actual "hands-on" experience to share info on tortoise husbandry.. and implied that those that don't to learn from them. It wasn't about anybody in particular.

And the next thing we see is the typical egos and emotions I asked to not see.

Why are y'all attacking me and each other? What does this have to do with 'experience' with tortoise husbandry? 

Where are the objective responses? [ only a couple so far ]

Terry K


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## RichardS (Apr 17, 2010)

-EJ said:


> I met quite a few... kids... some in highschool and some in college who you knew would become herpetologists. Some became respected herpetologists without the degree...


I agree with that completely, but I was not suggesting a degree is required to be a great tortoise keeper or herpetologist. I was simply illustrating that reading other peopleÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s work and later repeating it is a common and acceptable way to learn. The parallel to university students was only meant to qualify my opinion. 



-EJ said:


> I've met professionals in the herpetology 'business'... who have no interest in herps but are fantastic 'herpetologists'... not many... but a few. I know quite a few that do not keep reptiles. I ask these people a great deal of question...


My experience has been very similar. Most are in the field too often to keep anything at home base! WeÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re on the exact same page here. I was referring the majority of the people on these forums. Of course allowing wiggle room for a few exceptions. Ã¢ËœÂº


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## Candy (Apr 17, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> Redfoot NERD said:
> 
> 
> > The Q? is: Do those that give "advice" know or care how important it is to have 'hands-on' experience to ensure the best care for any particular species of tortoise or turtle?
> ...



Madkins I love your response to this thread I can always tell you do your research.  The way I look at it is part of being a teacher is researching and experience if you don't do both then how can you teach anyone anything? I actually think that we had a thread like this before and it didn't end up very good.


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## jackrat (Apr 17, 2010)

I know in my case,it didn't take very long to figure out who to pay attention to.I spoke to some of you on the phone,which helped a lot.I try not to throw advice out there,as I haven't been keeping for that long.I do know that the advice I've followed has been good,as my torts are all healthy and active.The only thing I'm waiting for is eggs,and thing are looking promising on that front.


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## -EJ (Apr 17, 2010)

By your own admission... you were trolling.

Experience is learned. You either have practical experience... or... learned experience. Learned experience can be practical... or... book experiecne.

As to the 'objective' responses... what are you looking for? I've seen some quite objective responses to this post. I've also read some quite slanted... I'll leave it up to you to determine which is which.

I'll give you a little hint as to a nonobjective post... the OPs post.





Redfoot NERD said:


> I asked if we could get those with actual "hands-on" experience to share info on tortoise husbandry.. and implied that those that don't to learn from them. It wasn't about anybody in particular.
> 
> And the next thing we see is the typical egos and emotions I asked to not see.
> 
> ...


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## Maggie Cummings (Apr 17, 2010)

When I read a thread like this I always feel like ya'll are talking about me and I gave bad advice to someone.
My experience is mostly with Sulcata and Gopherus agassizii. When I give advice on those 2 species I always say "this is *my* experience" or "this is how I keep *my* animals". The only experience I have with redfoots is keeping DoctorCosmonauts when he goes on break. So I mostly don't give advice on Redfoots except when the question asked is similar to what is involved in Sulcata or G.agassizii. Frankly I hate to give advice and I seriously hate it when a newbie shoots me a PM and asks advice. I am not exactly sure what your question is here but I don't do a whole lot of research on the animals I keep, I have learned from personal experience and from asking my sister. So I guess that's pretty lame but that's how it is with me. When I lived in Calif I did a whole lot of turtle and tortoise rescue. I rehabbed many turtle and tortoises. I started doing local work so I was home to care for these animals. I learned what I learned from experience with those animals. I don't do so much rescue here in Oregon, and I guess that's ok, but I do miss the hands on work of getting in a beaten up box turtle or a RES with shell rot. I miss that. My sister was always coming over and I'd see her walking up my drive way carrying a box and I knew I was about to get something good. My heart would start beating harder and my forehead would break out in a sweat. I have a chest full of medicine to treat wounds. I have habitats for the rescues that I don't treat any more but that's how I learned, from hands on treating of beaten up or seriously injured turtles or tortoises. And that's what I want to do. I don't want to give advice, I want to treat a wound. So I hope I haven't offended any one. I don't want to do any long term tortoise keeping involved in control groups or any of that type of thing. I am not smart enough for that. I keep some animals for fun. How much fun is a 2 legged turtle? Lots!!!
I give advice here because I'm a moderator and that's what's expected. But I try to give good advice and I try to not give Sulcata advice for a Redfoot. Did that make sense?


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## Tom (Apr 17, 2010)

Maggie, I think I can safely say that nobody is talking about you here. Three decades of hands on experience makes you very qualified to give whatever advice you want in my opinion. I've never seen you give bad advice.

You can advise me anytime you like.


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## Madkins007 (Apr 17, 2010)

maggie3fan said:


> When I read a thread like this I always feel like ya'll are talking about me and I gave bad advice to someone.



Shucks! I figured he was talking about me, my small herd of three measly years and tendency to quote research.



maggie3fan said:


> When I read a thread like this I always feel like ya'll are talking about me and I gave bad advice to someone.



Shucks! I figured he was talking about me, my small herd of three measly years and tendency to quote research.


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## Candy (Apr 17, 2010)

I thought the same thing Madkins.  It doesn't matter though because we love your research so you just keep on passing your information on for us.


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## Redfoot NERD (Apr 18, 2010)

I wonder what makes anyone think that I and others haven't researched? Maybe we do our research by asking those that have actually learned from many years experience.. and not what is found on the internet or written in a book. How much does an author know about dealing with hatchlings coming out of an egg or how to get them "started" right and then keeping them 'growing' right if all they have experienced is observing tortoises in the wild. They're not going to go thru the "hatchling" process in the wild.. are they? I realize that sometimes a hatchling might surface.. but that's after they are really sought out and then our responsibility is to "duplicate" the environment they were found in.. there and then.. don't ya think?

Like some have said.. my and their experience has come from years of applying what has been told us by those that have demonstrated what they know.. and shown the results over the years - year after year after year. And that experience is what I was trying to ask to be done thru this thread.. not who's the expert or thinks they are the most experienced or who has a degree or who has authored a book or who has the best caresheet!?

I wasn't aware that this is a "recycled" thread - because if it is it didn't have much impact the first time around. How is sharing what has been successful for 25+ years by a number of keepers and breeders and then presnted in a simple pic documented format.. anything other than useful?

Who among us [ without the aid of others' decades of experience ] have come up with a "system that works" on their own. Not me.. never claimed to.

Terry K


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## t_mclellan (Apr 18, 2010)

This might be stretching the topic just a bit but I'm going to do it anyway! 
I am firm believer that there is no substitute for "Hands on experience" !
Research when done properly relies on it extensively. 
I have said before that much of what has been written & is believed to be absolute fact can be proven wrong (incomplete may be a better term), Depending on the situation.
This applies to animal keepers in instances where the person doing the research has not, Or as I see it, Cannot account for the multitude of variables encountered in captive situations. 
I have kept many types / species animals over the years & found (as I have also said before) that even animals of the same species & sub-species that originate from different locations might require some differences in husbandry.
Does this mean that I know more than the people that do this research? Write the papers?
Read all the papers?! I wish I could say yes, But it dose not! It only means that I am 1 of the people that has encountered a situation that was not covered in another's research.
My thoughts are simple, Think, read & ask questions! ALWAYS! 
There is something you don't know, That you should know, Just around the corner!
Everyone you meet has something to teach! I have met a few people that have taught me what kind of person I don't want to be! 

A great number of books & papers on animals have been written by people that I know.
Many have passed & others that shall.
Some are acquaintances & more have been great friends, Some for 30+ years. I have gained the most knowledge corresponding with my friends. Letters, E-mail or a conversation over sushi (I learn best with sushi).

I would so love to point a finger & drop the name of the person, Who in my opinion is the most flawed, PUBLISHED & famous researcher around! 
That I will not do on a public forum!
Suffice it to say that their work is often quoted or referred to by many on this forum.
Myself included! 

Thankfully most of their flawed work is on distribution & locale.

Side bar - Madkins007

You & I don't see eye to eye always, But I appreciate your enthusiasm, Not to mention your ability to read faster & retain more than I do! You are a great source of "Book" knowledge, Keep it up! Now all you need are a few more years of "Hands on" experience to round you out. I hope I'm still around to pick on you in 20 years!
I would like also to thank you for your help last month! I owe you 1.
I also have some things you might like to read. 

Senselessly!
Tom McLellan


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## Redfoot NERD (Apr 18, 2010)

t_mclellan said:


> This might be stretching the topic just a bit but I'm going to do it anyway!
> I am firm believer that there is no substitute for "Hands on experience" !
> Research when done properly relies on it extensively.
> I have said before that much of what has been written & is believed to be absolute fact can be proven wrong (incomplete may be a better term), Depending on the situation.
> ...



Thank you Tom and Mark and Carl.. luv u guys!






A special to Mark:

You 'research'.. I take pics.. we all have to do our part. Anyone with the passion we have can get like results. I ditto what Tom said!

A special to Tom:

What you learn in most cases IMHumbleO is that someone else is learning.. maybe as a result of your years......... ( ooops is that a hatchling I just stumbled upon? )

A special to Carl (cdmay): 

You never gave up on me.. how many 'egg/hatchling' pictures and questions have I bombarded you with over the past 5+ years? My "Brazilian" program has been and will be greatly enhanced by your unending generosity!

Thanks again guys...

NERD


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## Tim/Robin (Apr 18, 2010)

As I (Tim) read this thread and ones very similar to it, I continually ask myself "what is that magical time period that will allow one to give advice without criticism?" At what point is one "officially" allowed to give advice based upon their own learning and experience? Are photos required to back up this knowledge and experience?


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## RichardS (Apr 18, 2010)

My mother-in-law had a WC aquatic turtle that she kept for 10+ years in a 10 gallon tank with no heat lamp. She has over 10 years of turtle keeping experience. Not knowing how long a turtle lives, she considers this experience a success.

I'm happy this community exists because I think it serves as one of many resources for people who want to be educated. Generally, books written for enthusiasts (by enthusiasts) tend to be over simplified pictorials that become out dated very quickly. They are fun to collect, but, I am not expecting to slap my forehead and have a eureka moment while reading one. 

I also think hobbyists tend to jump to conclusions and perceive the scientific community is lagging. The lag comes from years of field/lab research, documentation, collaboration, writing and the approval process to have a paper accepted by a credible journal, and thus accepted by the scientific community as a whole. Most of these journals aren't simply a google away and you should expect to pay money to download them (or go to a university library). More people read those journal publications than post on this board, especially internationally. I bet over the next few years the publications that will be available will create some waves. 

I am not saying that one has to write or read scientific journals to be a good tortoise keeper. However, hatching and raising a statistically insignificant number of animals and forming a steadfast opinion about is no less ridiculous than a mother of three arguing down an OB GYN.

My posts are never directed at any individual board members because I don't know any of you from the man in the mood.


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## t_mclellan (Apr 18, 2010)

Just a story on Tim's question about "Time" & to emphasize what I said about everyone having something worth learning.

Once upon a time .... I was at work doing what I do. I was in a predicament, Trying to accomplish my task. In my mind I was running through different scenarios that I had used in the past in similar but not exact situations. Nothing was going to give me the result I needed.
Just then an FNG, Quite literally their first day, walked up to me & said "Sir, Did you consider this ....."? 
Here was a person that new nothing about my job, Nor did they have the wealth of knowledge I had clouding their view of the task at hand!
My point?!
Sometimes what is needed is someone looking at things from a different point of view.
Clear & unclouded or prejudiced by past experience or opinion! 

Just a thought.
Tom McLellan


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## Tim/Robin (Apr 18, 2010)

t_mclellan said:


> Just a story on Tim's question about "Time" & to emphasize what I said about everyone having something worth learning.
> 
> Once upon a time .... I was at work doing what I do. I was in a predicament, Trying to accomplish my task. In my mind I was running through different scenarios that I had used in the past in similar but not exact situations. Nothing was going to give me the result I needed.
> Just then an FNG, Quite literally their first day, walked up to me & said "Sir, Did you consider this ....."?
> ...



Great example Tom. I too believe I can learn something from everyone. It doesn't matter the number of this or photos of that, don't discount the "newbies".


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## Redfoot NERD (Apr 18, 2010)

YEP!

"A man was driving his compact car past a 'home for the mentally impaired' and had a flat tire. He jacked up the car.. removed the 4 lugs nuts and placed them into the hubcap and removed the tire. He lost his grip.. dropped the tire.. it bounced onto the hubcap.. lug nuts went everywhere [ out into the traffic, etc. ]. Just inside the fence was an individual sitting on a bench watching the whole event. He overheard the man say - 'What am I going to do?'? The individual sitting on the bench watching the whole event said.. 'Take one lug nut from each of the other 3 wheels and you'll have 3 lug nuts all the way around!'. 

The man replied.. "Why are you in there"? The individual sitting on the bench watching the whole event said.. "I'm in here for being crazy.. not STUPID!!!".

Does this mean that too much info hurts or helps? I just happen to believe "less is best" and it will help more people.

NERD


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## Candy (Apr 18, 2010)

Tim/Robin said:


> t_mclellan said:
> 
> 
> > Just a story on Tim's question about "Time" & to emphasize what I said about everyone having something worth learning.
> ...



EXACTLY!


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## ChiKat (Apr 18, 2010)

^I agree

It makes me not want to post and offer suggestions to anyone because I know I'm not very experienced with torts- I've only had my one tortoise for ~9 months. 
I usually try to give general husbandry tips anyways, but now I feel like I'm not even qualified to do that.


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## Candy (Apr 18, 2010)

ChiKat said:


> ^I agree
> 
> It makes me not want to post and offer suggestions to anyone because I know I'm not very experienced with torts- I've only had my one tortoise for ~9 months.
> I usually try to give general husbandry tips anyways, but now I feel like I'm not even qualified to do that.



Well Katie I just noticed you gave advice on another thread about carrots and I think it was very good advice given. I think they appreciated knowing that the carrots have too much sugar in them and that is very good for them to know so that their tortoise can be as healthy and cute as Nelson is.


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## jackrat (Apr 18, 2010)

t_mclellan said:


> Just a story on Tim's question about "Time" & to emphasize what I said about everyone having something worth learning.
> 
> Once upon a time .... I was at work doing what I do. I was in a predicament, Trying to accomplish my task. In my mind I was running through different scenarios that I had used in the past in similar but not exact situations. Nothing was going to give me the result I needed.
> Just then an FNG, Quite literally their first day, walked up to me & said "Sir, Did you consider this ....."?
> ...


Tom,this happens more than I care to admit in my line of work.After doing the same thing for fifteen years,you get set in your ways if you aren't careful.I can't tell you how many times I have been pulling my hair out,trying to solve a seemingly insurmountable problem,only to have the FNG walk up and point out the obvious,easy solution.In the last few years,I've made it a point to walk away from the problem and return to it in a few minutes with the mindset of someone who has never seen it before.Not surprisingly,it works a lot of the time.When it doesn't, I go and get the newest hand I have working for me,who usually can get my senile butt out of a jam.


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## Madkins007 (Apr 18, 2010)

ChiKat said:


> ^I agree
> 
> It makes me not want to post and offer suggestions to anyone because I know I'm not very experienced with torts- I've only had my one tortoise for ~9 months.
> I usually try to give general husbandry tips anyways, but now I feel like I'm not even qualified to do that.



And that is the problem with posts like the OP's. This is an OPEN FORUM. If you want to chime in, you can. It is the interplay of personalities, experiences, and ideas that make places like this fun.

I kinda like knowing that if I say something and it is completely asinine someone will correct it- I learn something and the clarifications help the whole thread.

Please participate. Besides, that is what the little rating things are for!


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## fifthdawn (Apr 18, 2010)

First, I'd like to point out that you'd probably won't get very objective answers because the questions being asked are subjective.

I think its safe to say, you need BOTH knowledge through experience and knowledge through reason (science or education). We can imagine someone only having one kind of knowledge to a polar extreme.

Someone with extreme experience without reason can never confirm that it was their method that lead to their sucess and not a fluke. As someone pointed out earlier, there may be someone who has extreme sucess with their method but never realizing that their location is extremely high in humidity so their caresheet never included humidity in it. From his experience, it worked, but the reason was missing which would explain why it might not work for others. An example of what you'll never come across with just experience: Bok choy is high in oxalic acid and this is something you'll never come across based on just experience. You can raise tortoises for 3000 years and you'll never figure out oxalic acid interferes with the metabolism of minerals without a chemical lab.

Someone with extreme reason without experience can not adapt to variations. Science or textbooks will never cover every possible situation. When a situation deviates from the expected norm, there's no answer then. Someone who has read every tortoise text book out there will never find out that tortoises or other reptiles have preferences. Some of my other reptiles has a preference for different insects, different leaf shape, different color fruit, different texture in pellets, etc. You will only get this through experience. An example of what you'll never come across through textbooks: You can read every textbook there is on humidity and you'll never figure out how much and often you need to spray/pour water on your enclosure without a constant trial and error while staring at your humidity gauge.

I'm pretty sure theres nobody on this forum that belongs on either extreme. There are definately members who tends to lean toward one side and those who really lean toward one side but I think a good amount of people found a happy median. This is the importance of an open forum. When you average the means and extremes, you get a good mix of both experience and science which is what we really need.


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## Redfoot NERD (Apr 18, 2010)

How did -

The Q? is: Do those that give "advice" know or care how important it is to have 'hands-on' experience to ensure the best care for any particular species of tortoise or turtle? And then I asked for 'objective' responses. Doesn't that mean - Lets be honest and not think we can give advice on something we haven't experienced? 

So how did the above get to "It's possible to learn from a book or scientific research"? And start some debate!?

The only research I've done is trying to figure out the 'flora, temps and humidity' of where mine are native from. And ask questions from those that have demonstrated they know how to keep theirs happy enough and long enough for them to reproduce.

I have *no interest* in reading a book or subjecting my hatchlings to conditions that have already proven produces abnormal tortoises.

The majority of the responses from the original Q? above are trying to prove that it's O.K. to give advice without personal experience.

Go ahead...... I'm done.

NERD


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## Rhyno47 (Apr 18, 2010)

At first when I was a noob and gave advise I would always say that I was new or say that "it's just a thought but..."


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## Maggie Cummings (Apr 18, 2010)

Redfoot NERD said:


> How did -
> 
> The Q? is: Do those that give "advice" know or care how important it is to have 'hands-on' experience to ensure the best care for any particular species of tortoise or turtle? And then I asked for 'objective' responses. Doesn't that mean - Lets be honest and not think we can give advice on something we haven't experienced?
> 
> ...



You have made me feel less than, but yet I just said most of my experience is from hands on treatment of bruised or battered turtles and tortoises brought to me in a trauma situation. My experience wasn't learned from a book. It was from some tort that I didn't know what species he was bleeding all over me and my kitchen table. Most of *MY* personal experience was gained in just that way. I am a hands on actually does rescues person. Not a read it in a book person. I admitted I don't do as many rescues now that I am not in Calif...but that's how I got my experience. My experience is in actually dealing with a bleeding tortoise not a long term got pyramided from no humidity tortoise. Is that not acceptable? I think that Bob is the animal that I have kept the longest. I didn't get involved in rescue because I like chelonia, I pretty much don't, but I am good at trauma, and I know how to deal with wounds, so my sister started bringing the badly wounded animals to me. But my experience is discounted because I don't have any long term animals. I got the wounded ones, fixed'em up and shipped'em out. That's me.


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## chadk (Apr 19, 2010)

Person A, who is very experienced + knowlegable + has good results to show, says do XYZ. Person B is new and listens to person A, and ends up doing XYZ. Person C shows up with some questions. Person B passes along XYZ to help Person C. Person A is pissed.


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## terryo (Apr 19, 2010)

"Do those that give "advice" know or care how important it is to have 'hands-on' experience to ensure the best care for any particular species of tortoise or turtle? "

How long do you (Terry K...Nerd) think a person has to have "hands-on" experience to be qualified to give advice? 5 years...10 years...15 years....25 years? For instance...how long have you had "hands-on" experience with Redfoots? And, do you feel that is long enough to be qualified to give advice? How long has another Redfoot breeder had "hands on" experience to be able to give advice?


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## ChiKat (Apr 19, 2010)

Redfoot NERD said:


> The majority of the responses from the original Q? above are trying to prove that it's O.K. to give advice without personal experience.





chadk said:


> Person A, who is very experienced + knowlegable + has good results to show, says do XYZ. Person B is new and listens to person A, and ends up doing XYZ. Person C shows up with some questions. Person B passes along XYZ to help Person C. Person A is pissed.



^This
For example, I learned on this forum that sulcatas (or any tortoise, really) should not be kept on a substrate of rabbit pellets for various reasons (humidity, splayed legs, etc.) 
Recently someone asked a question about housing their sulcata on rabbit pellets, and I passed along the information I had learned. 
Was that wrong of me to answer their question? I don't have experience with sulcatas OR rabbit pellets, and I've only been a Russian tortoise owner for ~9 months.


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## Madkins007 (Apr 19, 2010)

Redfoot NERD said:


> The majority of the responses from the original Q? above are trying to prove that it's O.K. to give advice without personal experience.
> 
> Go ahead...... I'm done.
> 
> NERD



As was stated earlier and throughout the thread- OF COURSE it is OK. The key issue, which probably should have been made more clear earlier is * If advice is accurate and helpful, it does not matter where it came from-* whether it was from a book, another keeper, or years of experience. By the same token, even the most experienced keeper can give bad advice sometimes.


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## ChiKat (Apr 19, 2010)

Thank you Mark!


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## chairman (Apr 20, 2010)

IMO, I have found this forum to be a very hostile environment at times to new members. As a result I generally try to avoid giving advice, even generic tortoise advice that I have read over and over and over and over and over and... for fear of being attacked for only having 8 years experience with one species. There are enough 'experienced' people on here that advice is usually passed on in a timely manner, so I don't think my lack of input is hurting any. Of course, I still post every once in a while, but usually only when a) I don't think I'm going to get my head ripped off or b) when I know I'm going to get my head ripped off but that's the point of the thread.


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## chadk (Apr 20, 2010)

My head is attached pretty well. I could care less of someone in 'internet land' finds a reason to try and rip it off. Let 'em try!


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## harris (Apr 20, 2010)

There have been a lot of good points made on this thread. I personally have been involved with turtles and tortoises for the past 27 years, since acquiring my first RES in 1983. Much of what I learned through the mid to late 80's was through trial and error. It sure would of been nice if something like this site existed back then. I've worked with literally hundreds of different species throughout this time. I've seen the hundreds of questions posted on this site weekly and people's responses. Personally, very seldom will I make a response to someone's question(s) about the care for their turtle/tortoise. There's a lot of knowledgable people on this site. My only computer access is here at work, so by the time I read these threads when I get in to work, what could I possibly add that hasn't been already said? Without making myself look like a know it all. The great thing about this site is we're all here for the same reason....Our love for chelonians. I think it's fantastic when someone has only been working with their tortoise for a year, but took into account everything they were taught by knowledgable keepers, and were able to spread what they've learned to someone else just starting out.


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## chadk (Apr 20, 2010)

Nicley put Harris.


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## samstar (Apr 21, 2010)

If I could add here, I have only been keeping torts for a good 7-8 months and I have learned a lot from this forum and from the books and internet I have been reading these past few months. I still have a long way to go but many at times I feel the same way Mike (chairman) feels about posting something that I might get told off or even think about posting another thread here about my Star getting RNS in the future. Why? becuase I have got harsh replies from before about husbandary. I was new when I first started posting here and the reason I post here is only becuase I love these beautiful animals and I want to learn more and correct what I am doing. I have two Stars now and one has been fine from the day I brought him home and the other has got RNS for the second time(1st time I brought her home, she already came home with RNS) I have brought her home and they both live under the same conditions, so the second Star, maybe is a little weaker and has got RNS again, is it my faulth that the first Star is doing well and the second is not with both being under the same conditions. So I post a thread here and again the reply posted is a little harsh, maybe I'm to sensitive but thats how it came across to me. Would I ever want my Star to fall sick, NEVER! We got to ask ourselves why we have these forum in the first place, to share information, learn and exchange ideas about our beautiful little one's. 
I'm sorry if my post is not what is expected from the first post in this thread but I had to tell you'll how I personally feel. I do enjoy this forum and admire a lot of you'll (Terry(nerd), maggie, elegans etc etc..) for what you'll have acomplished and the information you'll have provided me with, thank you and God bless!


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