# D3 diet supplement paper posted here



## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 23, 2018)

Page 255 left column half way down. But please do read the whole thing. We can debate the merits here, and argue over the best name for my new pet tortoise, both 'advanced' topics.


----------



## MichaelaW (Aug 23, 2018)

Very interesting. More food for thought...


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 24, 2018)

@Tom here is that holy grail paper you have sought, food source D3 turning a MBD tortoise around, indicating that diet based D3 is real.

•Vitamin D dosage: (Source: Mader, p. 1069) Formula for mammals is 10-20IU/kg of body weight a day. Since reptiles have roughly half the mammal's metabolism, using 1/2 of that dosage 5-10 IU/kg/day seems to work well. Vitamin D toxicity is rare, and most often seems to occur when over 50 times the recommended dosage is given for weeks at a time. The primary symptom of vitamin D overdose is calcification of the soft tissues. Vitamin D toxicity is not an issue when the D is delivered by UVB lighting.

These authors went way over Mader's 'safe' limit, and that was the low ingestion rate (2000 IU/kg/Day) compared to 50 x the 5-10 IU/kg/day would be a range of 250 to 500 IU/kg/day based on Mader's calculation. The high ingestion rate in the paper's experiment was 50,000 IU/kg/day, a whopping 5000 x the safe rate Mader suggests.


----------



## Tom (Aug 24, 2018)

@Will I saw this yesterday and downloaded it onto my desktop to read through when I get a minute. Thank you for posting this.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 24, 2018)

here is a study, which I find some flaws with, that indicates over feeding calcium may be detrimental.

The base diet was made for the purpose of being low calcium. The high calcium diet did not offer more calcium proportionally to other nutrients, but rather exclusively more calcium.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 24, 2018)

last one for today. Look at the first column in Table one for tortoises. %DM means percent dry matter. Hatchlings is 26% adults are 65%, so the other side of that is hatchlings are 74% water and adults are 35% water. If there was ever an argument to substantiate that hatchlings need a high humidity and frequent drinking husbandry regime, I don't know a better one.


----------



## Olddog (Aug 26, 2018)

Will said:


> Page 255 left column half way down. But please do read the whole thing. We can debate the merits here, and argue over the best name for my new pet tortoise, both 'advanced' topics.


Not necessarily applicable but you might find the following of interest:

Vitamin D Toxicity: A 16-Year Retrospective Study at an Academic Medical Center


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 27, 2018)

Olddog said:


> Not necessarily applicable but you might find the following of interest:
> 
> Vitamin D Toxicity: A 16-Year Retrospective Study at an Academic Medical Center


 Humans not tortoises, they kept bouncing around on what concentration they found, ng/dl and mg for kg etc. It's hard to read. But I guess you already know that. Some had a co-reported calcium blood level some did not. Those that showed the worst clinical signs were accidental overdoses of young children of the order of 100 to 150 times the recommended (bottle instructions) amount to consume.

So what was your intent to post this here? Please explain.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 27, 2018)

So this paper reports blood level of some of the D3 things (D3 is created and used and all those sub- or super- components can be measured and used to infer D3) as well as D3 itself. 
These authors are looking at tortoises with access to sun versus tortoises that had access to UVB emitting artificial light sources.

The kick is that the Hetenyl paper never reports any blood chemistry, and soft tissue calcification can be easily overlooked in x-rays. They could have ended up with tortoises that had calcified muscle tissue. That the mushy shell individuals tuned around and had hardened shells give some opportunity to think 50,000 IU/kg/day is not too much for a mushy shell tortoises. 

I would have liked to see their 2000 IU/kg/day, and a few other increments before jumping to 50,000 IU/kg/day, like 2000, 10,000, 25,000, then 50,000 along with blood chemistry at day 0, Day 30, day 90, day 180, and day 365. That would have been so much more rigorous.

The quote from Madders book is feces, mammals get this much so reptiles should get that much. Dude how about taking into account that herps are exothermic, and tortoises have proportionally more 'skeleton'. That's such a crap reference for people to rely on.


----------



## Tim Carlisle (Aug 27, 2018)

Will said:


> So this paper reports blood level of some of the D3 things (D3 is created and used and all those sub- or super- components can be measured and used to infer D3) as well as D3 itself.
> These authors are looking at tortoises with access to sun versus tortoises that had access to UVB emitting artificial light sources.
> 
> The kick is that the Hetenyl paper never reports any blood chemistry, and soft tissue calcification can be easily overlooked in x-rays. They could have ended up with tortoises that had calcified muscle tissue. That the mushy shell individuals tuned around and had hardened shells give some opportunity to think 50,000 IU/kg/day is not too much for a mushy shell tortoises.
> ...



Those were pretty much my thoughts as well. With cholecalciferol having a faster absorption rate than straight D (or arguably D2), I would like to have seen a longer testing period of the lower IU rates. I'm not sure of the reaction of too much D3 in torts, but I know that over-calcification in the bloodstream of humans can cause nausea and loss of appetite. I'm with 100% with respect to an HCT, perhaps coupled with a bone density measurement. Being exothermic, I wouldn't think it would be too difficult.


----------



## Tom (Aug 27, 2018)

I still haven't read the paper. Just looking at the comments.

I want to do a simple study:
Group 1: Indoors only, no UV, no supplements.
Group 2: Indoors only, no UV, calcium with D3 supplement two or three times a week.
Group 3: Indoors only, good UV source like a 10.0 HO with UV levels verified by meter, no supplements.
Group 4. Mostly indoors, but outdoors with access to sunshine for an hour or two daily. No supplements.

All fed the same foods. All soaked daily. Blood drawn and D3 levels checked weekly.

Why is it so difficult for these studies to check D3 levels in the blood instead of leaving us to guess? Doesn't seem like a hard concept to understand.


----------



## Olddog (Aug 27, 2018)

Will said:


> Humans not tortoises, they kept bouncing around on what concentration they found, ng/dl and mg for kg etc. It's hard to read. But I guess you already know that. Some had a co-reported calcium blood level some did not. Those that showed the worst clinical signs were accidental overdoses of young children of the order of 100 to 150 times the recommended (bottle instructions) amount to consume.
> 
> So what was your intent to post this here? Please explain.




Bottom line is: It is extreamly rare to get true Vitamin D toxicity from Vitamin D supplements based on this human study.

Out of 73,000 patients with elevated 25(OH)D, only 4 truly had Vitamin D toxicity. Two of the patients were children getting liquid vitamin D drops in excessive quantities. One was a 62 yo who was taking excessive (50,000 IU of Vit D) daily in drop form, and the last was a 70 yo reportedly taking 1000 IU daily in tablet form with a questionable history.

There are several concerns with the study. 25(OH)D was measured (as opposed to the hormonal 1,25 dihydroxyyvitamin D (D3,active form)) for technical reasons. It was a retrospective study. It does encompass a lot of cases of elevated Vitamin D. It would have been nice if ionized Ca and PTH were measured simultaneously.

This is out of my working knowledge and I can only speculate why there was not more Vitamin D3 toxicity. Apparently some mechanisms functioned to prevent symptomatic toxicity. There are positive and negative feedbacks in Vit D3 synthesis and catabolism. Vitamin D receptors (VDR) are in most tissue and transcription is comodulated. There are different analogs of D3, some of which are synthesized and used for osteoporosis Rx. Production of D3 from other than skin/proximal kidney is apparently under control of many factors. Control of catabolism is multifactorial.


----------



## Baldy Aeschylus (Aug 28, 2018)

Just jumping in here, but does Mazuri have enough D3 in it as to make the D3 supplement irrelevant?


----------



## Tom (Aug 28, 2018)

Baldy Aeschylus said:


> Just jumping in here, but does Mazuri have enough D3 in it as to make the D3 supplement irrelevant?


It is my understanding that yes it does, but I will defer to anyone with more experience that says otherwise.


----------



## Tim Carlisle (Aug 28, 2018)

Tom said:


> It is my understanding that yes it does, but I will defer to anyone with more experience that says otherwise.



That's assuming a tort will eat the Mazuri (or derivative thereof).


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 28, 2018)

Olddog said:


> Bottom line is: It is extreamly rare to get true Vitamin D toxicity from Vitamin D supplements based on this human study.
> 
> Out of 73,000 patients with elevated 25(OH)D, only 4 truly had Vitamin D toxicity. Two of the patients were children getting liquid vitamin D drops in excessive quantities. One was a 62 yo who was taking excessive (50,000 IU of Vit D) daily in drop form, and the last was a 70 yo reportedly taking 1000 IU daily in tablet form with a questionable history.
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for sharing your thinking process. I know that can be a onerous thing to do in so many ways. Thanks.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 28, 2018)

https://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/...com/&httpsredir=1&article=1506&context=theses

I have to re-read this study to better answer with my opinion on the matter that if a tortoise will eat Mazuri does it provide enough D3 to compensate for 1) a total lack of UV radiation, or 2) a partial lack of Uv radiation, or perhaps 2) could result in too much D3 in any circumstance.

What I have experienced and from what I am reading (thanks @Olddog ) and the authors in that first posted paper in this thread is that the upper tolerance by at least some species of tortoise to D3 supplementation (regardless of UV) is very high. 

D3 is called a vitamin (a cellular process building block) by many 'authorities' but others consider it a hormone so that would be more of a regulatory function. I'm thinking from what I am reading is that is plays both roles when you take into account the pre-cursors and post-cursors of the molecule know as D3.


----------



## Stoneman (Aug 28, 2018)

Will said:


> Page 255 left column half way down. But please do read the whole thing. We can debate the merits here, and argue over the best name for my new pet tortoise, both 'advanced' topics.


When they start talking about nutrition facts in the table on page 2, what do they mean by "crude ash?"


----------



## Stoneman (Aug 28, 2018)

I thought it was interesting how they stated that tortoises have few Vitamin D binding proteins, which indicates that perhaps assumptions made for radiation requirements in humans and other animals may not be the same as with tortoises, and as q result tortoises may not be able to absorb as much D3 in one sitting, and therefore require prolonged exposure sessions in order to absorb all they need for the day.


----------



## Stoneman (Aug 28, 2018)

Mizcreant said:


> That's assuming a tort will eat the Mazuri (or derivative thereof).


I let it soak in water until it is completely broken down, and then thoroughly blend it in with their greens. If you use the right amount of water, it will clump against it in small amounts. This way it is completely covering all of their food. I do this with ground limestone every day on their food.


----------



## Stoneman (Aug 28, 2018)

@Tom one thing I noticed in the first article was that it stated that nutrition content with overall lower fiber, and therefore higher carbohydrates, led to more growth. I also saw that higher protein content led to more growth. Could it be that they only eat high fiber foods because that is all that is available in their habitats? I read that in Burma, the farmers got really mad because the platyona would demolish their pea fields. Pea is high in protein. Perhaps the low nutrient diets in their habitats are not ideal, but only survivable?


----------



## Stoneman (Aug 28, 2018)

@Will great work. Thank you for being committed to learning and for sharing this great scientific info with us.


----------



## Tom (Aug 28, 2018)

VividTortoises said:


> @Tom one thing I noticed in the first article was that it stated that nutrition content with overall lower fiber, and therefore higher carbohydrates, led to more growth. I also saw that higher protein content led to more growth. Could it be that they only eat high fiber foods because that is all that is available in their habitats? I read that in Burma, the farmers got really mad because the platyona would demolish their pea fields. Pea is high in protein. Perhaps the low nutrient diets in their habitats are not ideal, but only survivable?


 You make a good point here and I don't have a defendable answer, but I think they are more like children. Offer a bowl of ice cream with chocolate syrup or a healthy veggie based meal to a child and which will they choose? Which one is better for them?

I think tortoises are adapted to thrive on what is in their native environments, but will certainly take advantage of any opportunity for any sort of nutrient rich foods they come across.


----------



## Tom (Aug 28, 2018)

VividTortoises said:


> I do this with ground limestone every day on their food.



I think this is too much calcium supplementation. Calcium interferes with the absorption of other nutrients and trace elements like zinc for example. That much calcium every day can cause mineral imbalances which typically lead to rock or substrate eating issues. A couple of times a week with the calcium supplementation should be more than enough for most situations.


----------



## Stoneman (Aug 28, 2018)

Tom said:


> I think this is too much calcium supplementation. Calcium interferes with the absorption of other nutrients and trace elements like zinc for example. That much calcium every day can cause mineral imbalances which typically lead to rock or substrate eating issues. A couple of times a week with the calcium supplementation should be more than enough for most situations.


Thank you. I am going to cut back on the sprinkling.


----------



## Stoneman (Aug 28, 2018)

When they eat an excessive amount, it all gets overloaded in the blood, is there a detox mechanism that filters excess out through the kidneys? If so, does it get excreted as urates or feces?


----------



## Tim Carlisle (Aug 29, 2018)

VividTortoises said:


> I let it soak in water until it is completely broken down, and then thoroughly blend it in with their greens. If you use the right amount of water, it will clump against it in small amounts. This way it is completely covering all of their food. I do this with ground limestone every day on their food.



I did the same with both my sulcata and my leo. The sulcata welcomed it with open mouth (so to speak) whereas my leo would have no part of it and would avoid food containing any amount of Mazuri. Temperamental little thing. lol


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 29, 2018)

VividTortoises said:


> When they eat an excessive amount, it all gets overloaded in the blood, is there a detox mechanism that filters excess out through the kidneys? If so, does it get excreted as urates or feces?



Excessive amount of which dietary component? Calcium, protein ?

I think Calcium just flows through. @Tom mentioned nutrient competition and that is an important consideration, but also consider that everything they eat in the wild has some calcium, so there will always be some nutrient competition. I think the solution is to offer a higher proportion of some nutrient or range of nutrients in some meals, but hold them back in others. I think the only universally critical nutrient is water.

Crude ash is undifferentiated ash. That is they 'burn off' organic materials at a prescribed temperature for a prescribed period of time, so all that is left is 'ash' - that is crude ash. Then it can be further processed to indicate how much is one thing i.e. calcium. and how much is another thing, i.e. phosphorous.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 29, 2018)

Tom said:


> I think this is too much calcium supplementation. Calcium interferes with the absorption of other nutrients and trace elements like zinc for example. That much calcium every day can cause mineral imbalances which typically lead to rock or substrate eating issues. A couple of times a week with the calcium supplementation should be more than enough for most situations.



I agree it is too frequent, see post 28 in this thread. There is some amount of calcium in every meal, that might be thought of as 'native' and we know that both wild and captive tortoises will consume calcium as a stand alone thing, via cuttlebone of other small bits of stuff like egg shell, snail shells, etc.

So to have a high calcium day a few days a week and a no additional calcium day I think creates a better balance to reduce nutrient competition. 

I have a single high calcium day each week, and a few days of using vionate, a few days of using layer crumbles, and a day with no non-native supplements. No non-native supplements still may include high calcium diet items like opuntia, or mulberry.


----------



## Stoneman (Aug 29, 2018)

Thanks @Will I was referring to calcium. When you say flows through, do you mean does not get absorbed by the digestive track and flows through unabsorbed, or do you mean flows through the blood stream and excreted? 

Do you think the hard urates could be in part caused by the excess calcium?


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 29, 2018)

VividTortoises said:


> Thanks @Will I was referring to calcium. When you say flows through, do you mean does not get absorbed by the digestive track and flows through unabsorbed, or do you mean flows through the blood stream and excreted?
> 
> Do you think the hard urates could be in part caused by the excess calcium?




I mean eating and pooped out. Maybe blocking other nutrients along the way, maybe not.

Urates are the result of metabolized protein. Sometimes them concrete with other nutrients which may include calcium, based on some of these and other readings. Best solve here is to keep the tortoise well hydrated.


----------



## Stoneman (Aug 29, 2018)

@Will would you recommend herptivite as a daily supplement? Any idea what supplement A and supplement B were in the first study?


----------



## Stoneman (Aug 29, 2018)

I have been bathing them 3-4 times weekly. Since the solid urates I have switched to daily bathing. I am concerned I am keeping the water too low. I fill it up to where the plastaron meets the carapace. I have seen others go higher but have not wanted risk drowning, water inhalation or pnemonia. Am I too low?


----------



## Tom (Aug 29, 2018)

VividTortoises said:


> I have been bathing them 3-4 times weekly. Since the solid urates I have switched to daily bathing. I am concerned I am keeping the water too low. I fill it up to where the plastaron meets the carapace. I have seen others go higher but have not wanted risk drowning, water inhalation or pnemonia. Am I too low?


I go about halfway up the shell. I've never had any of the problems you mentioned and I've raised over 1000 babies in the last few years with daily soaks this way.


----------



## Stoneman (Aug 29, 2018)

Okay, awesome I am going to start that up tonight. Perhaps that's whats causing them to not drink.


----------



## Stoneman (Aug 29, 2018)

Halfway up their shell to the point that their heads would be submerged if not standing upright?


----------



## Tom (Aug 29, 2018)

VividTortoises said:


> Halfway up their shell to the point that their heads would be submerged if not standing upright?


Like so:



They lift their heads and walk around. Unless you've got it so deep they are swimming, they are not going to drown.

…Come to think of it, I once had someone "helping" me soak them, and they had the water so deep that all the babies were standing on their tippy toes and snorkeling their necks up. It did no harm, and I showed them the correct water level for next time.


----------



## Stoneman (Aug 29, 2018)

Higher than this?


----------



## Stoneman (Aug 29, 2018)

Sorry to hijack your thread @Will


----------



## Tom (Aug 29, 2018)

VividTortoises said:


> Sorry to hijack your thread @Will


That looks adequate. A little more water wouldn't hurt anything.


----------



## Stoneman (Aug 29, 2018)

your little babies are quite the acrobats


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 30, 2018)

VividTortoises said:


> @Will would you recommend herptivite as a daily supplement? Any idea what supplement A and supplement B were in the first study?




I don't know, I think that was a conference presentation made into a paper. So, maybe a liable issue?? They did the study in Europe, so maybe something entirely nor readily available here. I just don't know.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 30, 2018)

VividTortoises said:


> @Will would you recommend herptivite as a daily supplement? Any idea what supplement A and supplement B were in the first study?


I recommend what I use. Vionate and layer crumbles.


----------



## Stoneman (Aug 30, 2018)

Will said:


> I recommend what I use. Vionate and layer crumbles.


I tried to find a tortoise layer feed in a google search, but could not. Are you talking about chicken feed?


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 31, 2018)

VividTortoises said:


> I tried to find a tortoise layer feed in a google search, but could not. Are you talking about chicken feed?


Yes, 
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...OdY2BwN8YIWapeeoI0krq5Mre0aXvQ6xoCCvsQAvD_BwE

https://www.purinamills.com/chicken-feed/products/detail/purina-organic-layer-pellets-or-crumbles


----------



## Stoneman (Aug 31, 2018)

@Will do you wet it first? Do you give that as normal feed or a portion of their diet? I like your thinking. A good calicum phosphorus ratio and 16% protein and other nutrients micronutrients. I could just take it from my normal chicken feed! :-D The only thing i would be concerned about is the fast release energy from the corn. There are some that supplement wheat for corn because it is a complex carbohydrate. It is interesting you mention that because I have been contemplating the pros and cons of using wheat with limestone to balance the Cah ratio, and maybe an unflavored pea or soy protein supplement.


----------



## Stoneman (Aug 31, 2018)

That was supposed to say CA: PH ratio


----------

