# eggs in the wild



## monsteramp (Apr 23, 2015)

im curious how eggs survive in the wild since everyone says u need an incubator for it to hatch. even though the climate is suitable there's bound to be rain through the many days and night temps fall.


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## mike taylor (Apr 23, 2015)

Well to answer this not all eggs that wild tortoises and turtles lay survive . The conditions have to be perfect . If you have a room where the temps stay constant then you don't need a incubator . Kelly ( tortadise ) doesn't use an incubator 100% of the time . He has a green house that the temps and humidity are perfect for his eggs . In the wild eggs get eaten by all kinds of animals and people . So if you want better hatch rates use a incubator . If you want lower hatch rates don't use one . But you can hatch eggs without one .


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## WithLisa (Apr 23, 2015)

I don't think the conditions have to be perfect. I only have experience with european tortoises, but they are very easy to breed, especially Hermanns. Wet or dry, hot or cold, it doesn't really matter. I know someone who put eggs on a shelf in his room and forgot about them, 3 months later he found the hatchlings on the floor.

Falling night temperatures are natural and lead to better hatch rates and more active hatchlings (with less scute anomalies).


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## ZEROPILOT (Apr 23, 2015)

It looks like the biggest problem with the "natural" method in captivity is that even in a spacious enclosure, the eggs are likely to be damaged by a clumsy tortoise without even factoring in the predators.
There have been nice stories about babies popping up in pens that have hatched from eggs that the owner didn't know were there.


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## cmacusa3 (Apr 23, 2015)

The ones that just hatched for me sat outside 4" down for almost 6 months during the end of fall and all of winter. Snow, rain and freezing temps however there was a small blanket of leaves over the top but that was all. It' was a shaded area that doesn't see much Sun.


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## WithLisa (Apr 23, 2015)

Abramsmytankturtle said:


> The ones that just hatched for me sat outside 4" down for almost 6 months during the end of fall and all of winter.


I don't think an egg can survive the winter. Maybe the baby hatched in fall and brumated in the nesting hole.


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## cmacusa3 (Apr 23, 2015)

WithLisa said:


> I don't think an egg can survive the winter. Maybe the baby hatched in fall and brumated in the nesting hole.


 one was still in the egg


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## cmacusa3 (Apr 23, 2015)

This was her on Halloween of last year, when I noticed this I put her back in the enclosure for a few days before taking her in for Hibernation, Then on Apr 1st of this year I discovered the first hatchling, then next day I found 2 more and day 3 I dug up the area and found one out of the egg and one more half way out.


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## Tom (Apr 23, 2015)

WithLisa said:


> I don't think an egg can survive the winter. Maybe the baby hatched in fall and brumated in the nesting hole.



They absolutely can. Even for tropical species. I've had sulcata nests laid in December hatch in September, October and November. The cold doesn't seem to bother the eggs at all. They just need at least 3 months of consistently hot temperatures to develop and hatch.


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## cmacusa3 (Apr 23, 2015)

I don't know how to explain it.


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## cmacusa3 (Apr 23, 2015)

our avg temps for those months
Oct 65.3
Nov 45.1
Dec 42.5
Jan 38.4
Feb 36.0
March 52.8


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## Yvonne G (Apr 23, 2015)

Eggs can and do incubate in the ground all the time. The sun warms the earth down to a certain level, and it stays warm there for quite a while. It takes consistently cold weather for a very long time to reach down far enough to cool the eggs. Quite a few turtles and tortoises hatch out in the nest and stay there until the sun warms the earth in the spring.

The reason I have to dig my eggs and incubate them is due to the terrible red ant population here where I live. If I leave the eggs in the ground the ants bore through the shell and eat the egg/babies.


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## Tom (Apr 23, 2015)

monsteramp said:


> im curious how eggs survive in the wild since everyone says u need an incubator for it to hatch. even though the climate is suitable there's bound to be rain through the many days and night temps fall.



Several points here:
1. Most of the species we are talking about are not native to the climates and areas of the world where they are being kept and wehre they are depositing eggs into the ground.
2. You don't "need" and incubator in most cases, but it is a controlled, safe, measurable way to bring the babies into the world. A lot less risky than letting nature take its course in a foreign land with foreign predators and climate issues.
3. The eggs are usually buried deep enough and in a suitable area, so that rain and temperature extremes do not reach them. At least that's how it works here in my area.
4. In the wild nest temperature can vary wildly. It is not known whether this is good or bad, or exactly how this affects the eggs during the many stages of development. We know from trial and error that consistent warm temps in an incubator usually yields good results, where other variations sometimes yield good results and sometimes not.


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## WithLisa (Apr 23, 2015)

Abramsmytankturtle said:


> This was her on Halloween of last year, when I noticed this I put her back in the enclosure for a few days before taking her in for Hibernation, Then on Apr 1st of this year I discovered the first hatchling, then next day I found 2 more and day 3 I dug up the area and found one out of the egg and one more half way out.
> View attachment 127141


I would not have believed that eggs can survive the winter. There is always something new to learn about tortoises! 
But I guess your hatchlings are from older eggs and have only brumated inside the nesting hole (maybe even inside the egg shell) or was it warm enough for them to develop between November and March?


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## Yvonne G (Apr 23, 2015)

WithLisa said:


> I would not have believed that eggs can survive the winter. There is always something new to learn about tortoises!
> But I guess your hatchlings are from older eggs and have only brumated inside the nesting hole (maybe even inside the egg shell) or was it warm enough for them to develop between November and March?



We're talking about hibernating species here. The 'eggs' don't survive the winter, the babies hatch in the Autumn and over winter in the nest in a hibernation type state.


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## cmacusa3 (Apr 23, 2015)

WithLisa said:


> I would not have believed that eggs can survive the winter. There is always something new to learn about tortoises!
> But I guess your hatchlings are from older eggs and have only brumated inside the nesting hole (maybe even inside the egg shell) or was it warm enough for them to develop between November and March?


I have no clue how it worked to be honest, those eggs weren't laid until early November to my best guess, It got very cold here during those incubation months. When I found them they were only about 7 grams and the yolk sacs were gone but it hadn't been long because the I could still see the marks on the plastron.


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## WithLisa (Apr 23, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> We're talking about hibernating species here. The 'eggs' don't survive the winter, the babies hatch in the Autumn and over winter in the nest in a hibernation type state.


That's what I wanted to know.
I never heard about eggs that were laid late in autumn, survived a long winter and started to develop in spring - but maybe it's possible?
I know that eggs can be stored at a cool place for some days or even weeks before being incubated, but a few months with maybe freezing temperatures seems quite long to me.



Abramsmytankturtle said:


> When I found them they were only about 7 grams and the yolk sacs were gone but it hadn't been long because the I could still see the marks on the plastron.


I'm not sure if the marks would disappear with a depressed metabilc rate during brumation...
But I'm afraid you'll never find out, your hatchlings will keep their secrets.


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## Tom (Apr 23, 2015)

WithLisa said:


> That's what I wanted to know.
> I never heard about eggs that were laid late in autumn, survived a long winter and started to develop in spring - but maybe it's possible?
> I know that eggs can be stored at a cool place for some days or even weeks before being incubated, but a few months with maybe freezing temperatures seems quite long to me.



From what I have read, laying eggs in the fall is common to most Testudo species in the wild. The eggs over winter underground and begin to develop once temperatures get warmer in spring and summer. They incubate underground over summer and hatch in late summer or early fall, just in time to hibernate.

I read this specifically about russians and some of the greeks. @HermanniChris , can you confirm or deny this for us?


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## HermanniChris (Apr 23, 2015)

Hatched eggs or those near hatching of temperate species particularly the genus Testudo can and absolutely will survive winters depending on severity. Much like our Northeastern natives the wood, eastern box, Blanding's, spotted and painted turtles, eggs laid too late in the year will hatch but overwinter in the nest. Soil quality and consistency, temperature fluctuation and precipitation play a major role here. It's not the cold that usually destroys viable eggs or neonates, it's the elements. Eggs of many species even tropical can hatch just fine without any use of an incubator. For instance, a lot of keepers hatch eggs placed in containers that just sit on a shelf in a room that stays room temperature! In fact, Andrew, Ben and I were talking about this just last night on a video chat. Ben has hatched several tropical species this way with big success rates. I on occasion have found Hermann's and Ibera Greek hatchlings wandering around the adults' outdoor enclosures in past spring after overcoming absolutely ridiculous winters. This situation is reminiscent of the over-saturation of keepers thinking their "babies need to be kept warm at night". An individual over does it by adding a supplemental heat source as a nighttime warmer in the form of a CHE or infrared. When it comes to many of these species especially most of the Tetsudos, this is NOT necessary whatsoever and many times results in the animal's untimely death. Unless your house gets super cold at night, you don't need it and the tortoise certainly doesn't. Same with eggs. various studies have shown that nighttime drops in temperature are actually good for incubating eggs thus replicating what they experience in nature. The end result is healthy, robust, strong hatchlings. I choose to use incubators for all tortoise species bred here but I will sometimes incubate some turtle species on shelves in a room or in our mud room with 100% hatch rate. Each year (this year is no exception) we usually find baby European pond turtles in the enclosure that holds the adults. These are from a nest missed, they overwinter in the nest and come out in spring. Just another example that conditions do not need to be perfect. 

As for Testudos laying eggs in the fall in nature, I too have heard of this although it is not common. In captivity, that's another story. We've gotten Russian, all 3 Hermann's ssp, several Greek ssp and Marginated eggs in every single month during any given year. With other species this varies. We haven't gotten any Red Foot eggs since late February-March, no C. bourreti since February but we did get a pancake tortoise nest a few days ago. 

Hope this helps a bit and that I didn't go too far off topic.


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## WithLisa (Apr 23, 2015)

HermanniChris said:


> various studies have shown that nighttime drops in temperature are actually good for incubating eggs thus replicating what they experience in nature. The end result is healthy, robust, strong hatchlings.


That's true, it's much better for the hatchlings, but there is a higher probability to get males, that's why only few breeders use this method. 
If you only put them on a shelf, all of them are male for sure (at least for european tortoises, I don't know about tropical species).


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## HermanniChris (Apr 23, 2015)

Producing males and females is possible in either situation. It all depends on temperatures and consistency of temperature. For example, producing female T. h. hercegovinensis does NOT require very high temperatures at all. Not to mention, a temperature drop or climb would need to take place at the right pivotal timeframe during the duration of the incubation in order to actually push either sex outcome as the end result.


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## ascott (Apr 23, 2015)

monsteramp said:


> im curious how eggs survive in the wild since everyone says u need an incubator for it to hatch. even though the climate is suitable there's bound to be rain through the many days and night temps fall.



Weird huh,..things wild ....making it in the wild...completely without any help from humans...wow...amazing  where there is will there is a way......


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## monsteramp (Apr 23, 2015)

really great, learnt many things from u guys.


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## WithLisa (Apr 23, 2015)

HermanniChris said:


> Not to mention, a temperature drop or climb would need to take place at the right pivotal timeframe during the duration of the incubation in order to actually push either sex outcome as the end result.


But when is the provital timeframe?
When my mother was still breeding Thb, she experimented with fluctuating temperatures (95-100° at day and switched the incubator off at night) and most of the hatchling were male.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Apr 24, 2015)

Some species of tortoise and turtle seem to have a natural antifreeze in the egg and ,indeed, in the young hatchlings to help them over winter. this chemical slowly dissipates and is said to be gone in a few years.


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## Tom (Apr 24, 2015)

WithLisa said:


> But when is the provital timeframe?



This is not known yet, even by the people who study reptile incubation.


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