# [Moved from Intros] To hibernate or not



## CircleStarRanch (Aug 27, 2015)

In many of the replies to my intro to the forums, it was suggested we not hibernate (brumate) our new Sonoran Desert Tortoise (SDT) this year. I'm somewhat confused for several reasons. (1) The adoption agency (AZ Game and FIsh) requires a burrow be constructed to spec - with photos to prove it - as a part of the adoption application. (2) They will only adopt out prior to October 1st due to this being about the beginning of hibernation season for the SDT. (3) If he lives in a fairly large outdoor enclosure (again photos required as part of the application), what is to stop him from going into his burrow to hibernate? Or is this all a moot questioning, as the needs of a SDT are different than other tortoises?

-Dutch


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## wellington (Aug 27, 2015)

@Yvonne G can probably help you out here. 
I don't know anything about the place you got him from. All I can say, is, just because someone or some place is a tortoise rescue, doesn't mean they really know everynting that there is to know, or the latest most updated info. 

Do you know how long they had the tortoise? Do they know that for most of the year he has been healthy in every way so that it is safe for him to brumate? These are the reasons it's not recommended the first year of owning a tort, you don't know how it's been, healthy, not healthy, eating good, not eating good, etc, in order to make it safely through.

Possibly different for the DT, but I don't know.


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## Country10 (Aug 27, 2015)

Why would you interrupt the natural cycle. We assume we know best, however the tortise should be able to decide on their own, breaking a natural cycle adds stress which brings on illness! Are we not just caregivers, ensuring the basic needs are met, and in return our tortise will grace us with their presence for our enjoyment. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## ascott (Aug 28, 2015)

Country10 said:


> Why would you interrupt the natural cycle. We assume we know best, however the tortise should be able to decide on their own, breaking a natural cycle adds stress which brings on illness! Are we not just caregivers, ensuring the basic needs are met, and in return our tortise will grace us with their presence for our enjoyment.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.



Yes we should only act as a buffer to encourage them to do what they do...however, they have already been interrupted in a huge way by original removal from the wild. So since they have been displaced and are now in a forced captive space in an area they kay jot necessarily picked on their own we must take variables into count. So you are adopting this tort who has been displaced prior to you and will again be displaced when he comes into your yard...that is in itself a lot of stress for a creature that is by nature very private..so there is issue one. Add to that there is no way you know if he has eaten properly to store enough nutrition to carry his body through brumation..you don't know if he has hydrated enough to help to not dehydrate too much through brumation..you also do not have a yard/enclosure that has been tried during winter rains to see how water will move in and through as well as if the man made hut/burrow is sound and deep enough for the tort to remain safe..even though you have done work and think all looks good..you will not know for sure until it has had a real life test run..and there is not many things that match the feeling in your gut when you realize your work was not spot on and you find yourself knees sunk in the mud with rain pouring down on you while you are digging by hand to recover a burried tortoise who is brumating...and hoping what you find is still alive...

So when folks recommend holding off on brumation for the first year, there are many reasons why..you don't know what this tortoise "normal" is until you have had time to get to know him..also stress in the tortoise can be a very sneaky killer...stress underlying in a tortoise can make things that are not normally an issue turn into a big issue...so it is a good practice to hold off for the first year...during that time the tort will let you get to know him...if he insist on sleeping then you can do a sleep box and put him away in a dark cool place where you can keep an eye on him...


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## Ciri (Aug 29, 2015)

Can Arizona game and Fish give you more information about his history? I assume this is an adult, rather than a juvenile tortoise. I believe they are checked over by a reptile veterinarian before adoption. You might want to ask him about that. I don't think they would adopt out a tortoise who is low weight or for any reason is not in good shape for hibernation. It is always good to be cautious, though.


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## Country10 (Aug 29, 2015)

Looks up where Apple Valley CA IS....LONG WAYS from the sonora desert........ (thinks ascott has no clue about raising SDT)


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## SarahChelonoidis (Aug 30, 2015)

Country10 said:


> Looks up where Apple Valley CA IS....LONG WAYS from the sonora desert........ (thinks ascott has no clue about raising SDT)



Sarcasm is really hard to read online sometimes... But just in case you were serious, desert tortoises are also native to the Mojave desert too...


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## ascott (Aug 31, 2015)

Country10 said:


> Looks up where Apple Valley CA IS....LONG WAYS from the sonora desert........ (thinks ascott has no clue about raising.



You may want to check back in when you have some tortoise keeping facts that are as valuable as your keen map reading skills..wow, I could not be more impressed..


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## ascott (Aug 31, 2015)

SarahChelonoidis said:


> Sarcasm is really hard to read online sometimes... But just in case you were serious, desert tortoises are also native to the Mojave desert too...



You are correct...there are very subtle differences ..but when speaking of the issue of brumation and general information..the differences nearly become mute...and you are also correct about sarcasm being easily misread...as I sensed more ignorance than sarcasm..as usually I find sarcasm a form of intelligence and that was lacking all around...


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## ascott (Aug 31, 2015)

CircleStarRanch said:


> In many of the replies to my intro to the forums, it was suggested we not hibernate (brumate) our new Sonoran Desert Tortoise (SDT) this year. I'm somewhat confused for several reasons. (1) The adoption agency (AZ Game and FIsh) requires a burrow be constructed to spec - with photos to prove it - as a part of the adoption application. (2) They will only adopt out prior to October 1st due to this being about the beginning of hibernation season for the SDT. (3) If he lives in a fairly large outdoor enclosure (again photos required as part of the application), what is to stop him from going into his burrow to hibernate? Or is this all a moot questioning, as the needs of a SDT are different than other tortoises?
> 
> -Dutch



I wish you well and much luck to the tortoise being adopted into your care. It would appear by your "like" you are not seriously seeking help but rather a cheering section for how awesome your knowledge is in the care of a desert tortoise...have a great day.


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## Country10 (Aug 31, 2015)

Lmao!!!!!!!!!


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Oct 6, 2015)

Country10 said:


> Lmao!!!!!!!!!



Whoa. And wow. Sorry. Not cool. Some (many) of our members are very experienced, long term keepers and I know I have learned a lot from them. 
It's that kind of forum. It's funny that way. No need to be snarky, and snipey. 
Most of us check our ego at the door when coming in to TFO, in order to learn more for the sake of the tortoises we host. They are that important to us.
Crazy, isn't it?


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## Tom (Oct 6, 2015)

CircleStarRanch said:


> In many of the replies to my intro to the forums, it was suggested we not hibernate (brumate) our new Sonoran Desert Tortoise (SDT) this year. I'm somewhat confused for several reasons. (1) The adoption agency (AZ Game and FIsh) requires a burrow be constructed to spec - with photos to prove it - as a part of the adoption application. (2) They will only adopt out prior to October 1st due to this being about the beginning of hibernation season for the SDT. (3) If he lives in a fairly large outdoor enclosure (again photos required as part of the application), what is to stop him from going into his burrow to hibernate? Or is this all a moot questioning, as the needs of a SDT are different than other tortoises?
> 
> -Dutch



1. You really think the government knows best about ANY subject?
2. What happens to the ones that are not adopted? Also see number 1.
3. You enclosure and man-made burrow are NOT the wild. They can't do what they would they would do in the wild to prepare for hibernation or hibernate, when confined in your back yard. We need to help them. Above ground temperature extremes can be deadly to DTs. Your little shallow man made burrow counts as "above ground" because your tortoise will still be subjected to those extreme temperature variations at that depth and with a wide open door like yours. A deep burrow, in the right place, way out in the desert is a totally different thing.


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## leigti (Oct 6, 2015)

If it were me I would definitely not hibernate the tortoise this year. If you want to next year great. You will have plenty of time to research and get everything the way it needs to be. I feel it is just too risky now. Meanwhile you can get to know your tortoise.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 6, 2015)

It is not recommended to allow a new-to-you tortoise of any species to hibernate the first winter you have it. You need time to make sure the tortoise has enough weight to make it through the stress of hibernation. Keeping him awake also gives you the opportunity to make sure he's healthy and isn't harboring any sickness.

(and to that person who was rude to Ascott, Apple Valley, California is the home range of our Gopherus agassizii (desert tortoise), and she has a couple of them in her care. The desert tortoises in the Sonora desert are no different from the desert tortoises in the Mojave...in fact it was only recently they were separated into two different species. Ascott is one of the more experienced desert tortoise keepers here on the Forum and we appreciate her insight. Please don't be rude. We don't appreciate it)


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Oct 7, 2015)

Tom said:


> 1. You really think the government knows best about ANY subject?



Exactly, Tom!
We the People constantly have to Protect the Protected from the Protectors. (desert tortoises, wolves, wild horses, San Animas River ... on and on ...)
EPA - Everyone Poisoned in America 
FDA - For Dead Americans
Sorry for hijacking. Simply could not help myself on this one.


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## Tom (Oct 7, 2015)

BeeBee*BeeLeaves said:


> Exactly, Tom!
> We the People constantly have to Protect the Protected from the Protectors. (desert tortoises, wolves, wild horses, San Animas River ... on and on ...)
> EPA - Everyone Poisoned in America
> FDA - For Dead Americans
> Sorry for hijacking. Simply could not help myself on this one.



It is good to see that lots of other people realize what is going on in our world.


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