# POST SALE RESPONSIBILITY



## ALDABRAMAN (Apr 28, 2016)

I have read several recent post, etc. and my e-mails requesting help and information regarding aldabra hatchlings are significantly increasing. It seems many have similar circumstances with after sales help, direction or information from the sources that they purchase the hatchlings from. It seems most are mislead that they are purchasing directly from actual breeders, when in fact they are buying from someone that simply buy and sell hatchlings as a business. It seems many have no or minimal experience with actually working with the species they sell and therefor can not or provide bad information and direction if any help is needed post sale. Any thoughts on this? Here is what we tell people that purchase our hatchlings, we are always reachable directly by phone and will share any experience or information we have based on our three decades of experience. They also always ask what kind of guarantee do we provide. I explain we guanantee that every hatchling leaves our program in optimal health and condition, however once you take possession we have no control with how you keep, feed, etc. and have no responsibility. We have never had any major issues, however we encourage they call if any issues at all. When they pick up the hatchling we now give them a very informative care sheet and spend time explaining many things that we find to be common problems. In some cases i call for the first week or so and check in.

My question to members of this forum is what opinions do you think regarding after purchase liabilities and responsibilities?


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## wellington (Apr 28, 2016)

I have always received my reptiles, tort and lizard me with a guarantee of live arrival and that's it. 
I don't know how you can be responsible after that, unless it was for like a day or two, too short of a time for the new owners to screw up too much. I'm sure the tort brokers are not giving the buyer the whole truth. Dog brokers are selling puppy mill dogs, so there isn't much honesty. I'm sure it's a lot of the same in the tort/reptile broker world too.


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## Tom (Apr 28, 2016)

You summed it up well Aldabraman. I agree with your points.

I always try to tell people who to buy from, but sometimes they don't get the message, and they just don't know better.


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## Turtlepete (Apr 28, 2016)

I think anyone selling live animals has a moral obligation to that animals safety and well-being, but this is more pre-sale than post-sale. When I sell any animal, I evaluate whoever is contacting me. If I feel they won't make a suitable home for any living animal (plenty of these), I turn them away. If I sense they mean well but really don't know where to begin on care, I'll converse with them via email/phone/text about the proper care for the animal, sometimes for weeks on end. I help them decide if the animal is for them or not. Everything I sell comes with a detailed care sheet and the promise that anyone who wants to return it may do so at any point, no questions asked. I encourage them to store my number and email and contact me with any issues they may have down the road, any care questions, etc.. 

I have no control over what they do _after_ they purchase an animal from me. This is why I try to screen potential buyers; I'd rather avoid a situation where I am contacted 6 months down the road by an owner wondering "Why is it's shell so bumpy?" and sending me pictures of a turtle or tortoise in a 10 gallon glass tank on marbles. So, I make sure they have ALL the information they need before hand and ensure that they are going to make a proper owner.

So, to answer the question of post-sale responsibilities, I think your only responsibilities are to ensure the person wanting to buy an animal from you is well-equipped to do so, to make sure they have any and all information they need, and encourage them to contact you if they should need any help.


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## Tom (Apr 28, 2016)

Turtlepete said:


> I think anyone selling live animals has a moral obligation to that animals safety and well-being, but this is more pre-sale than post-sale. When I sell any animal, I evaluate whoever is contacting me. If I feel they won't make a suitable home for any living animal (plenty of these), I turn them away. If I sense they mean well but really don't know where to begin on care, I'll converse with them via email/phone/text about the proper care for the animal, sometimes for weeks on end. I help them decide if the animal is for them or not. Everything I sell comes with a detailed care sheet and the promise that anyone who wants to return it may do so at any point, no questions asked. I encourage them to store my number and email and contact me with any issues they may have down the road, any care questions, etc..
> 
> I have no control over what they do _after_ they purchase an animal from me. This is why I try to screen potential buyers; I'd rather avoid a situation where I am contacted 6 months down the road by an owner wondering "Why is it's shell so bumpy?" and sending me pictures of a turtle or tortoise in a 10 gallon glass tank on marbles. So, I make sure they have ALL the information they need before hand and ensure that they are going to make a proper owner.
> 
> So, to answer the question of post-sale responsibilities, I think your only responsibilities are to ensure the person wanting to buy an animal from you is well-equipped to do so, to make sure they have any and all information they need, and encourage them to contact you if they should need any help.



Good post. It reminded me of the days when I worked in the pet store. I literally spent more time talking people OUT of buying pets than into it.
"No you can't keep your iguana in a 10 gallon tank, and no, there is no guarantee that it won't grow up to be a biter or tail whipper."


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## dmmj (Apr 28, 2016)

to be honest if you provide a healthy animal and good care advice I don't think there's much responsibility. saying that if you want to continue guiding them after they buy the animal I'm all for that


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## N2TORTS (Apr 29, 2016)

Great Post Greg .......unfortunately we live in a world of "want it now" with most folks not realizing the care and time it takes to own these lovely creatures, not too mention the laziness of most not doing ANY research before their purchase ( I think "reading" is a thing of the past) These are the same folks who have no clue... the patience , funds and care it takes for the animals to breed successfully in captivity. Imagine if car salesmen had to follow the same guide lines? Cheaper insurance for all , less accidents and deaths. But the real truth is people buy cars and trucks who have no business getting behind the wheel and this isn't petty cash ....it's a multi billion dollar industry.
But your ideals, program and animals set a 5 star regime in a quality breeder and love for these animals.....
I think the internet has become more of a "slam" thing , then actual truths being told in some cases.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 29, 2016)

Well, adopting out isn't quite the same as selling, but I make sure the person taking the animal understands what they're getting into. I provide a care sheet for that species. I tell them I'll take the animal back any time, no questions asked. And I reassure them I'm available on the phone any time they have questions.

If I were selling, I would do all the above, but I would also note that there is only a one week window when they can get their money back. A lot can go wrong after a week and I don't think the seller should be responsible money wise for anything that happens after a week.


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## Pearly (Apr 29, 2016)

I think screening pre-sale, detailed care sheets, maybe little samples of appropriate food/substrate/supplement included in shipment, and provide opportunities for questions post sale just about does it. Responsible buyers will do what's right. Others... should never have any animals. You can't fix "stupid" and you can't change "cruel". Frankly I had no idea there were "animal brokers"! But yeah! There's money to be made there! That's why I feel the best source is local shelters and rescue groups (those rarely have exactly what you look for) or directly from the breeder... but... How can you tell when buying online who is who? Is there a way for people to tell their ordered pet comes from a broker, vs breeder?


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## Kapidolo Farms (Apr 29, 2016)

I have whined about flippers more than a few times. I like your spin on post sale care better. Flippers don't have to provide poor information or care advice (often they do), they just don't seem to have regard for the animals as much more than widgets, or turning a feeble animal over as quickly as possible so it dose not die in their hands.

Greg, there is no replacing 'Buyer Beware'. Maybe it should not have to be that way, but it is. People who sell who are forthright can get lost in the crowd of less reputable sellers. Even breeders versus flippers is not a clear distinction here.

I think the proactive stance is to educate buyers. That seems to be a great part of TFO philosophy.

Many people seem to buy on impulse, with a corresponding attention span after the purchase. 

I've had a few arguments here on TFO about how soon after hatching is appropriate for selling, it seems there are some hallmarks that many miss in this regard based on the biology/physiology of the animals. 

There is also some debate about what kind of guarantee should be provided, and IMO that depends somewhat on the method of delivery.

I have opened arguments with some buttheads in FaunaClassifieds about what LTC (Long Term Captive) means. To me it is *over* one year in the seller's care. There are business precedents for what is LTC in any business, and 'herpers' for the most part don't grasp it. Usually in business 'Long Term' applies to greater than ten years, short term is less than one year and that gap from one to ten is medium term. Try putting that in to FaunaClassifieds and the shout down would be heard on Mars.

It all comes down to BUYER BEWARE. Due diligence is just not a home or car buyers responsibility.

Buyers have to ask...

How long has this animal been in YOUR care?
Where did it come from before your ownership?
What other animals has it shared accommodations with?
What other species do you work with?
Can/will you show me pictures of the adults?

I recently sought to buy a group of tortoises that was not so inexpensive. The asking price was high. I told the seller that I would meet their asking price in about 6 weeks. I would be happy to put a refundable deposit down. They sold them at a reduced price in a few days. My conversational follow-up was that several had died. Two things here. The asking price was placed so some 'hurry up and get' them person could loose ground in seeking a refund and to compel the sale if the price was negotiated down. Second, they were not 'doers' and the six weeks even at the full price would have been a loss for the person selling. FLIPPER of animals with a shady history.


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## Pearly (Apr 29, 2016)

Will said:


> I have whined about flippers more than a few times. I like your spin on post sale care better. Flippers don't have to provide poor information or care advice (often they do), they just don't seem to have regard for the animals as much more than widgets, or turning a feeble animal over as quickly as possible so it dose not die in their hands.
> 
> Greg, there is no replacing 'Buyer Beware'. Maybe it should not have to be that way, but it is. People who sell who are forthright can get lost in the crowd of less reputable sellers. Even breeders versus flippers is not a clear distinction here.
> 
> ...


Yes, buyers should be asking the questions you suggest above. Trouble is... Most buyers wouldn't think to ask all that. I know I didn't! And I did do some research prior to buying my babies. I agree with wide effort on public education there. But that takes time


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## Kapidolo Farms (Apr 29, 2016)

Pearly said:


> Yes, buyers should be asking the questions you suggest above. Trouble is... Most buyers wouldn't think to ask all that. I know I didn't! And I did do some research prior to buying my babies. I agree with wide effort on public education there. But that takes time


@Pearly , A bit of putting you on the spot with this question...

What exactly was that pre-purchase research that you did?

I probably go overboard, when I look to buy screws that will go into concrete I will look to see what people have said in blogs, talk to different hardware people at Big Box stores etc, all just for one project. I tend to go overboard. I don't trust what I learn most of the time as well. I don't think people are intentionally seeking to misguide or misinform. I think most people just take the interest as casual, not serious.

When I made the night box that I brought to Yvonne's place, just the hinges I used for the tortoise entry door got many bouts of several minutes of consideration, questions and follow-up. I'm okay with the hinges I got, but think I should have just bought a certain kind and modified them to my specific spec. But time and tools to do that were not available, so it was a purchased hinge.

So anyways, can you describe what your research entailed?


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## Pearly (Apr 29, 2016)

Will said:


> @Pearly , A bit of putting you on the spot with this question...
> 
> What exactly was that pre-purchase research that you did?
> 
> ...


Hahaha! I should have put that word in parenthesis! Comparing to what you describe, mine is as half-a**'ed as it can get For the baby tortoises in my case it was simply google search. None of the people I know keep torts, so I couldn't ask them. Now, my friend from HS who still lives back in Poland, used to have a little tortoise. That was in the 80's. I remember she was just walking around the house and did "sleep whole winter" according to my friend whom I did text to specifically ask what it was like to keep the tort. Apparently they had that tortoise for little over 20 years before she finally died. She did lay few eggs on their balcony and they even hatched but none of the babies survived. I wonder why obviously she was not kept right, and probably not fed the right food, still she did live fir quite a while in this very urban dwelling. Was probably kept strictly indoors. They lived on 10th floor. I doubt they had any lamps or anything like that for her. On my google search it wasn't until shortly after we got the babies that I'd found this forum. I wish I had found it beforehand. But... things did work out for us in this case. My babies are doing well. So again, my research probably differs from yours quite a bit


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## Cheryl Hills (Apr 29, 2016)

Some of the problems I see with post selling guarantee has to do with some sellers. What if you did all your homework, research and all, you questioned the seller, eco and say a month or so the baby dies because of the way it was taken care of before you got it. Clearly, this is the seller or breeder that was not taking care of the baby right. Maybe you should not get your money back but I feel the buyer should be compensated. Maybe, send them another tort but, wouldn't it still be the same problem. My thoughts are how do you protect the buyer from the unwired breeder? We have seen many stories on here about a baby dying months after purchases because the baby was not taken care of right at birth. And the buyer is out of there money and there tort.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Apr 30, 2016)

In my case, things were alittle different. I'm not a tortoise rescue, yet some how folks a hundred miles from me would track me down to adopt their tortoises. No advertising or talking with strangers in regards to tortoises, these folk just out of the blue would call on me with a tortoise that wold need a new home. 
Other than my trio of pancake tortoises I only purchased 2 of the larger sulcata I own. I had a total of 9 sulcata, 3 pancake tortoises and somewhere between 15-20 russian tortoises, before I had my "fun" truck accident. If you're curious about that story, send me a pm and I'll give you the rundown on it. 
While I was in my, "medically induced" coma, my now exwife "temporarily" adopted out all my tortoises but 1. She wanted nothing to do with them. I had kept all these tortoises knowing local reptile rescues were available but over stocked and under budgeted so, rather than pass them on, I kept them here at my place. I knew I could do it and didn't want to pass more on to these rescues. 
During the time I was functioning, my sulcatas bred once. This was a goal of mine. I thought how cool would it be to hatch out your own tortoise babies every year, sell them, and bring in some cash each year? Right? In my case wrong! I couldn't just sell the babies to unknown buyers that seemed "nice" enough. I was too long term attached to my babies and from the total of 7 I had hatch out, I still had 2 that were entering the bully time of growth. Most of the sulcata i'd taken in had been in a pair situation and I knew first hand they don't unlearn that. 
So for now, back to the thread topic. If, in that place you hold things precious and of value, you feel confused about buy a baby from someone, I say do it. Ask if they are the breeder. Ask how it's been kept since it hatched. We're all pretty much inline with the observations and study that Tom has done with sulcata raising and he's good at it as well. So if looking for a baby sulcata I say Tom. If you've got a hankering for one that's older than a hatchling, ask him he may even have something for you in that department as well. Questions about my ridiculously long post ask and I'll answer or shoot me a pm. Happy weekend all.


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## ColleenT (May 1, 2016)

some of you might not have read my recent situation from the box turtle area, so here is the link. i found a very reputable person who is a large animal dealer, and this happened to me. i am still waiting to hear back from Seller and tried to call him today and got no response and was unable to leave a message. i have sent a few emails, including the vet bill, and still waiting. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/strange-day-with-unwanted-outcome.140839/


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## Kapidolo Farms (May 1, 2016)

Cheryl Hills said:


> Some of the problems I see with post selling guarantee has to do with some sellers. What if you did all your homework, research and all, you questioned the seller, eco and say a month or so the baby dies because of the way it was taken care of before you got it. Clearly, this is the seller or breeder that was not taking care of the baby right. Maybe you should not get your money back but I feel the buyer should be compensated. Maybe, send them another tort but, wouldn't it still be the same problem. My thoughts are how do you protect the buyer from the unwired breeder? We have seen many stories on here about a baby dying months after purchases because the baby was not taken care of right at birth. And the buyer is out of there money and there tort.



A month or so! If I see something wrong I call it out right away. I am figuring this was a shipped animal. In person pickup, I feel comfortable I can sort it out on the spot. Otherwise it is my responsibility. 

On the other side of this coin, people have killed perfectly well started animals in just hours after I sell them. With enough conversation I have pulled out some pretty hairbrained things experienced folks have done, and still wanted a refund. In the late 90's one sale was enough to put me off for many years, pretty much until 2011 or so. Probably best to leave names out of it, no one I know here on TFO, but 25K+ members those folks could be here?


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## dmmj (May 1, 2016)

if someone was to claim one of my animals was defective for some reason I would want a necropsy done there's no guarantee that just because they say they did everything right that it was done right you know what I mean. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone just thinking out loud


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## dmmj (May 1, 2016)

I have a question how do sellers go about determining whose fault it was just by asking questions about care anybody can lie anytime online


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## Cheryl Hills (May 1, 2016)

Will said:


> A month or so! If I see something wrong I call it out right away. I am figuring this was a shipped animal. In person pickup, I feel comfortable I can sort it out on the spot. Otherwise it is my responsibility.
> 
> On the other side of this coin, people have killed perfectly well started animals in just hours after I sell them. With enough conversation I have pulled out some pretty hairbrained things experienced folks have done, and still wanted a refund. In the late 90's one sale was enough to put me off for many years, pretty much until 2011 or so. Probably best to leave names out of it, no one I know here on TFO, but 25K+ members those folks could be here?




I agree. Some people who say they know what they are doing or did everything right, may not have. But, I know that babies that are dry raised may die later. They were not raised right from the beginning. That would be sad if you were doing everything right and the tort died because of something the breeder/seller did wrong. The buyer should be compensated. Guess it would be hard to prove though


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## dmmj (May 1, 2016)

Cheryl Hills said:


> I agree. Some people who say they know what they are doing or did everything right, may not have. But, I know that babies that are dry raised may die later. They were not raised right from the beginning. That would be sad if you were doing everything right and the tort died because of something the breeder/seller did wrong. The buyer should be compensated. Guess it would be hard to prove though


that was my main point how do you prove who is wrong


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## Neal (May 13, 2016)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> I have read several recent post, etc. and my e-mails requesting help and information regarding aldabra hatchlings are significantly increasing. It seems many have similar circumstances with after sales help, direction or information from the sources that they purchase the hatchlings from. It seems most are mislead that they are purchasing directly from actual breeders, when in fact they are buying from someone that simply buy and sell hatchlings as a business. It seems many have no or minimal experience with actually working with the species they sell and therefor can not or provide bad information and direction if any help is needed post sale. Any thoughts on this? Here is what we tell people that purchase our hatchlings, we are always reachable directly by phone and will share any experience or information we have based on our three decades of experience. They also always ask what kind of guarantee do we provide. I explain we guanantee that every hatchling leaves our program in optimal health and condition, however once you take possession we have no control with how you keep, feed, etc. and have no responsibility. We have never had any major issues, however we encourage they call if any issues at all. When they pick up the hatchling we now give them a very informative care sheet and spend time explaining many things that we find to be common problems. In some cases i call for the first week or so and check in.
> 
> My question to members of this forum is what opinions do you think regarding after purchase liabilities and responsibilities?
> 
> ...



To your first question, I definitely don't like seeing or hearing about people selling tortoises that have no practical experience with the species they're selling or give out bad advice. A lot of the problem lies with the breeders who are unloading their hatchlings to these types of people without any respect for the animals themselves. Admittedly, I wholesale a lot of what I produce, but I sell to people I have a good relationship with and who I know will give good advice and provide good support. 

Honestly, I don't think the after purchase responsibilities as a whole never go away, as far as what a breeder should specifically be responsible for will change perhaps. Example, the breeder should provide some sort of assurance that the tortoise sold will behave normally and otherwise be healthy for a day or couple of days after arrival. Young tortoises can turn south quickly, so responsibility for replacement on the breeders part if the tortoise becomes ill or dies should end after at least a day or a short time longer. As far as being available for questions or other help, I don't think that should ever end. So the breeders responsibility shifts to a more customer support type of position. 

You're a good example to a lot of breeders by offering many means to contact you, being active on public forums, and following up with post purchase sales to see how things are going. To me that fully satisfies any and all social responsibilities we should expect from breeders in the hobby.


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## Cowboy_Ken (May 14, 2016)

Neal said:


> Young tortoises can turn south quickly, so responsibility for replacement on the breeders part if the tortoise becomes ill or dies should end after at least a day or a short time longer.


 It is amazing to me that we still see threads titled "failure to thrive syndrome" as if this were a type of disease that is common with young tortoises as apposed to poor keeping knowledge being handed down in the first place by the sellers of hatchling and or young tortoises. If it's just a business and not a passion, why would the sellers really care about after care?


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