# When does it end.. (shell rot)



## Whayla (Sep 30, 2014)

When I first bought my young female RF tortoise about a year ago, I struggled the battle of shell rot for a good 2-3 months. The situation was remedied and she has been happy and healthy for some time now. Today, while investigating her plastron before her usual soak, I noticed that there was some too familiar signs that she once again is dealing with this nasty fungal/bacterial illness. Tortuga has not had a decline in appetite, nor in her behavior. This time, the shell rot was caught very soon and I have already taken steps for her recovery.
I felt so terrible the first time I found out (not knowing if I adopted her with shell rot, or caused it within the first few weeks), and now I feel like I am a terrible tortoise parent for letting history repeat itself.

Now for my questions, what the heck am I doing wrong?! In the bottom half of her enclosure it is strictly cypress mulch with some sphagnum moss in her cave hide as burrowing/hiding material. The moss stays dry, and only is misted every once in awhile. This is because (when doing research and asking questions when the first shell rot scare came around) I was originally told that the moss when wet can be too acidic for my tortoise and could cause shell rot, so I hardly moisten the moss. Just keep it in there because Tortuga likes to hide behind it to block out the light. There is a soaking area for her and some flat rocks for a dry area. This area also has a day light that is on a timer for day/night, along with a ceramic heater that stays on 24/7 keeping the temps stable at around 82-86.
The top half of the enclosure has one MVB above a huge flat rock for basking, which is also on a timer for day/night. Temps are 93-105 on the rock so she can choose where she feels most comfortable to bask. Here there is also a small watering dish so she can drink if she gets thirsty basking + it adds humidity. The other side of the enclosure is around 82-84 and has no light. The coldest temp I am reading in the middle of the day is 80F. I will have to check for night time temps a few hours after the lights have gone "down". The substrate on this top half is coco coir/cypress mulch.
I mist both the bottom and top halves of the enclosure one to two times a day, but only on one side. So both the bottom and top halves have wet/dry sides. Well, more like misted/dry sides. The enclosure definitely dries out with the MVB and ceramic heater, so I really need some advice on how to prevent this cycle from happening to my poor girl once again. 

I've heard mixed things about cypress mulch causing tiny scrapes and cuts that can harbor bacteria/fungus.... I've also heard that some people keep their coco coir too moist which can cause shell rot (trust me, this is not the issue at hand here, I have learned from previous experience). What other substrates should I try, if anyone thinks a change in substrate would do the trick? I have heard that wood middlings (I cannot think of the name for the life of me) are a bit better than cypress chips because they are less abrasive? Btw, if anyone knows what I am talking about and would care to share the actual name, that would be much appreciated. Topsoil has been mentioned a lot when talking about tortoise substrate, and I am curious about the experiences and luck that people have had with it? 

Really any input or suggestions/responses are truly helpful and appreciated. Thank you to all the experts out there when a newer tortoise parent is in need.


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## ascott (Sep 30, 2014)

Howon long did you treat the first rot battle? At that time what did you see that led you to believe it was a good time to stop treatment? 

I personally like peat moss...it is a pain in the but to initially get the water absorbed...but be patient and once it is moist..then use your hand to firmly pack it down to create a more solid surface for the tort to motor about on....as the top layers dry out the tort is not setting on wetness...which is ideal..however, if the tort desires a dip down into the substrate to get a bit more juicied up then it can...I personally do not like the wood or bark type substrates...too abrasive in my opinion...also the fluff stuff you mentioned is not so great in my experience either...and I have tried it a few different times and still don't like it...


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## wellington (Sep 30, 2014)

From what I have learned on here, to prevent shell rot for RF is to keep the top layer dry. If the bottom layers is damp and the temps are warm enough, the humidity will be correct while keeping the top layer of substrate dry.


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## mikeh (Sep 30, 2014)

Give medium/large coco husk chunks/chips a try(not coco coir). They are soft, smell great, retain water/moisture yet allow plenty of ventilation around plastron for it to stay relatively dry. 
Soak in water for 10 mins then place in enclosure. 

Get rid of everything else including moss.


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## Whayla (Oct 2, 2014)

ascott said:


> Howon long did you treat the first rot battle? At that time what did you see that led you to believe it was a good time to stop treatment?
> 
> I treated Tortuga for about two months straight. I was told to stop treatment when there was no signs of fungus (white) or rot, and the plastron is smooth and free from flaking. At the end of treatment she did still have slight indents where the worst of the shell rot hit. I was told scaring could be a possibility. I felt confident that the treatment had done its job and that my tortoise was healing properly. There was no new signs of rot until now. Do you think it could have just came back or that it wasn't destroyed 100%?
> 
> ...


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## Turtlepete (Oct 2, 2014)

Whoever told you spaghnum moss caused shell rot was way backwards. Most of my hatchlings are raised on spaghnum and do not have this issue. It is kept very moist as well.

The most likely scenario I think is that it really never went away to start with, and your just seeing the same shell _fungus_ reoccur. 

I don't think your substrate is causing this. Again, I think it's just reoccurring. I've always used cypress mulch; it's my favorite substrate! It doesn't cause shell fungus, that I'm aware of….My favorite mix for yearlings is ground-up cypress mulch mixed with peat moss on the surface, as it stays a little bit softer.
I can assure you I don't have to keep the surface bone-dry to prevent shell fungus.


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## Whayla (Oct 2, 2014)

Thanks for your input, Turtlepete. 
The cypress mulch I use are relatively large chips; do you grind your down a bit. And if so, how do you go about doing that?


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## ZEROPILOT (Oct 2, 2014)

My tort got his shell plastron banged up by sharp cement and it looks like that started the fungus.(It's only in the banged up areas.) I don't know what the future holds as he lives outdoors in 80% humidity and has his own pond and still seeks out moist soil to sleep in. I've been treating him for a week and when it's raining, he comes inside my enclosed patio and stays on hay and ground up newspapers.


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## ascott (Oct 2, 2014)

It is likely that the affected area was just not completely healed...a tortoise can take a bit of time to heal, especially if it is the shell. "I" personally like Peat Moss as the substrate...the wood particle type substrate just seems to lumpy and full of potential rough spots...now, everyone has their own way and those ways work for them..sounds as though you may be in the "find out what works for your set up" stage....


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## ZEROPILOT (Oct 3, 2014)

Ascott, about the "rough spots". Does fungus usually get going on a damaged area? My guy was scraped up for about a year before it showed up and it only happened in the damaged areas. Also, the center portion of his plastron looks a little bit like de-laminating plywood. I think that is the beginning of actual "shell rot". The links tell you about the cures, but are a little vague on the diagnosis part. I'm treating for both. 50/50 Betadine and water treatment and a little anti-fungal cream after. Pictures are in my ABRASION OR FUNGUS? thread.


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## Whayla (Oct 3, 2014)

ascott said:


> It is likely that the affected area was just not completely healed...a tortoise can take a bit of time to heal, especially if it is the shell. "I" personally like Peat Moss as the substrate...the wood particle type substrate just seems to lumpy and full of potential rough spots...now, everyone has their own way and those ways work for them..sounds as though you may be in the "find out what works for your set up" stage....



Perfect description. I have tried different ratio mixes of cypress and coco coir for a year, but I'm always changing up the tortoise table to see what Tortuga enjoys most and what works best for the environment. 



ZEROPILOT said:


> ...Does fungus usually get going on a damaged area?.......



When you get a cut, it is a lot easier for bacteria to enter your body and it gets infected. It is practically the same concept.  When shells are beat up, it is easier for fungus to spread. At least that would be my logic?


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## Turtlepete (Oct 3, 2014)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Ascott, about the "rough spots". Does fungus usually get going on a damaged area? My guy was scraped up for about a year before it showed up and it only happened in the damaged areas. Also, the center portion of his plastron looks a little bit like de-laminating plywood. I think that is the beginning of actual "shell rot". The links tell you about the cures, but are a little vague on the diagnosis part. I'm treating for both. 50/50 Betadine and water treatment and a little anti-fungal cream after. Pictures are in my ABRASION OR FUNGUS? thread.



Your tortoise does not have "shell rot". This is an entirely different thing, a bacterial infection under the scutes. Diagnosis would be made from pitting, soft spots, terrible smell (ever smelled an infection?), discoloration, etc.. Very serious ailment that requires vet attention usually, and if allowed to progress could lead to septic infection, and therefore death.
Your tortoise doesn't have that.
Your tortoise, my friend, has shell _fungus. _Huge difference, but for some odd reason the two terms get lumped under the same name pretty much every day here :-/. Shell fungus is a fungus….Chalky white substance that spreads across the shell. Usually starts on the plastron, spreads to the marginals and if allowed to progress sometimes the carapace. Diagnosis is simple, cure is easy, and the worst it will leave is areas where it ate through a layer or two of keratin.

As far as cuts or banged up areas being infected by shell fungus easier, I would guess yes. It seems logical enough. It will certainly still happen whether there are banged up areas or not, however.

I would recommend changing up your regime there a little bit. Thats a pretty harsh dilution of betadine. Betadine is known to prohibit cell growth (or so they say?) and for that reason isn't used extensively. Usually only as a 1/10-ish dilution with water to scrub the affected areas the first two days. You could order some Novalsan and use that. Applying the cream and keeping him dry overnight for a week or two should do the trick.


I don't ground down cypress mulch. I actually have a massive pile of it since I use it for pretty much everything, and the stuff on the inside decomposes to a "ground up" state. This option obviously isn't available for everyone though. If you don't have that large of an enclosure, look into this: http://www.kincaidproducts.com/Reptile-Substrate-Trenton-FL.html
Kincaid makes a triple-ground cypress mulch specifically for reptiles. I've never personally used it, but there were advertising it at the NRBE as well. Looks like good stuff!


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## ZEROPILOT (Oct 3, 2014)

Turtlepete, Thanks VERY much for your description and diagnostic/cure/ advise. You described exactly what I'm dealing with and I'm absolutely convinced that you are correct. The areas are pitted depressions. The fungus appears to be gone as there is no more soft and flaky parts. It's all hard now. I'll lay off the batadine and continue the anti fungal. I clean him and treat him every day and he has been dry. Thanks SO much. Thatinformation is exactly what I needed. I owe you one!


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## Whayla (Oct 3, 2014)

Agreed with every word, Turtlepete. 
Your method for substrate sounds delightful, but unfortunately that option is out of reach for me, at least for right now. I like the idea though. Thanks for the advice and products to try everyone. Much needed and appreciated. 

I hope your tortoise heals quickly, Zeropilot. Make sure to continue treatment.


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## ZEROPILOT (Oct 3, 2014)

Whayla, sorry to highjack your thread! What I use indoors is a thick layer of ORCHID bark that is dampened and another thinner layer of dry potting soil on top. The potting soil has less sand in it than top soil, and is also plentiful and cheap. I have found that by heating from the bottom...In my case with a taped on 15 watt heat rope, The moist orchid bark underneath helps the humidity when warm and the top layer stays dry. This is my trial and error fix.


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## Whayla (Oct 3, 2014)

Not a problem, as long as we are both learning and gaining the information we need to keep our babies happy and healthy.

Since fungus is so easily spread, would it be advised to deep clean my tortoise table? Last time this problem happened I did end up cleaning out all of Tortuga's substrate and keeping her in a dry environment for two weeks before allowing her to re-enter her home. I still applied treatment at this time. 
Should I remove all substrate again, and potentially deep clean the table for added relief?


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## ZEROPILOT (Oct 3, 2014)

I have no experience in that, but it couldn't hurt and makes good sense. In my case I'd have to re-sod my whole yard.......


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## Whayla (Oct 8, 2014)

Just to inform and update. 

I ended up cleaning out the tortoise table and playing around with my options. I found a HUGE bag of organic 100% natural peat moss for a killer deal, so I took it as a sign to try it out. I did just a slight layer of cypress mulch (the rest of what I had from previous) and a good layer of peat moss on top of that. Its about an 80/20 ratio. I have been trying not to mist my soil "wet," but instead I poor a slight amount in certain areas, like in a corner by the UVB or ceramic heater. I still love a slight mist now and again for a humidity bump, and she enjoys the shower as well. 
So far, I have really liked the mixture of substrate, since the chips allow for airflow and the the peat moss locks in humidity underneath while maintaining a perfect dry but moist top layer. 
I agree that it's best to find what works for you and your animals. 

As for Tortuga,
I have been treating her each morning. I did not use Betadine this time around, but have been cleansing with a diluted chlothexidine solution and treating with a clotrimazole anti fungal cream. Unlike last time shell rot plagued, I have been keeping Tortuga on paper towels in a container located under her light to allow the medication to dry. This step has improved the condition immensely, and Toot seems to be healing nicely. I will continue treatment until her shell is fully restored, which I know can take months and even years in horrible cases. The earlier it's caught, the better.

I hope this information helps someone else out there and thanks to the responses to my questions.


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## lisa127 (Oct 8, 2014)

I use 100% organic peat moss for my box turtles. I love it. The smaller one is in a 50 gallon Rubbermaid tub and the larger one has a ten square foot enclosure. For ten bucks I fill up both enclosures with plenty of substrate for burrowing. You can't beat that! And unlike most people here, I hate coco fibre. So this works for me!


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## Randi (Oct 12, 2014)

My tortoise was rescued after being in sloppy conditions. She was in a five gallon tank with soaked soil, and that was since December. I got her in July. The fungus is gone but there are dents left. She was 48 grams and now sits at 54. 

I use cypress mulch and I keep it quite dry. I also live where no matter how many times you mist, it will never be enough. I make up for it in baths. She has a large water dish to lay in. She also has a moist mossy side that I mist every second day. 

I used Betadine scrubs the first two days and then Chlorhexidine Gluconate 2% that was diluted to scrub her shell for a week. I would apply a small amount of athletes foot cream and allow her to dry.

Pics of the first day and as of the other day. 
Hope to have helped. This is my first tortoise so I'm not an expert but it worked for me.


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## mike taylor (Oct 12, 2014)

You did an awesome job . This is what I use weekly to wash my tortoise . (See picture) It will help keep rot away .


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## Randi (Oct 12, 2014)

That's exactly what I used.  
You would continue use once weekly just for general hygiene?


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## Whayla (Oct 23, 2014)

I have changed my substrate, stopped misting the tank especially where Tortuga sleeps or lounges (just pouring watering in the corners to keep humidity up but the top layer is always completely dry), and have been treating her every day. She is now on peat moss.
Today, I noticed that her plastron is no longer looking better... In my opinion it is looking worse.
Can the fungus become resistant to treatment? Should I change the substrate again, seriously soak the whole table in alcohol, and not let her back in for a few more weeks? Keeping her in a steralite tub or something to monitor and keep her 100% dry? She lives in a two story tortoise table that I made from wood. Could the fungus spores be inside of the wood and therefore I will never rid myself of the problem without changing her environment completely?

I am beginning to feel like I am not fit to keep my girl. I am so distraught and saddened. I love my tortoise with all of my heart, seriously sometimes too much.....
Am I a terrible person for thinking that someone out there could rehabilitate her better than I can? Should I look into facilities that could take her?

Please don't think I am a horrible person, or that I want to rid myself of the situation. I am not stating that I am getting rid of Tortuga, nor that want to. I am extremely emotional right now and really need some sound advice on what I should do.


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## ascott (Oct 23, 2014)

Wood is a fantastic sponge for alot of fungus and bacterium....I personally do not like wood for this very reason. In an open area the wood would have time to dry out some with the sun and heat of the day...in a captive environment this is not the case...we add water to offer humidity (and if you do this over the entire enclosure then there is little chance for any dry out space) then that sits and ferments...the tortoise eats, drinks defecates all in the same soil...with no opportunity to move away from it.....it is difficult to say what is the catalyst for the problem...but the best observation is to look at what is going on in the set up and understanding and accepting that it is not working...not failure, just not working....so, the best way to get a different outcome is to do something different...right? AND UNDERSTAND THAT I AM NOT TELLING YOU WHAT I THINK IS FACT, IT IS NOT...I am simply taking in all that you are sharing and trying to offer suggestions, okay....so no one bother wasting your damn time lecturing me, thank you.

"If it were me" I would get a completely different enclosure (a rubbermaid tote new from the big box store...like a 55 gallon tub at the least)...I would line the bottom with plain ole dirt/soil from outside (just make sure you are not scooping from any ant homes) I would like the bottom of the tub with at least 5-6 inches of the earth..then leave it alone....continue to soak, gently clean the tort with a soft bristle brush and some warm water and plain ole soap (like dawn liquid soap) and be sure to make a college effort to not get any of the soap in the eyes...I would soak the tort first in a warm water bath for like 20 minutes and no less (it takes at least this amount of time to wet and loosen dirt and crud)...and while this is going on, I would get a bowl of warm water mixed with dawn and have a soft tooth brush handy...when the tort is done soaking, I would then gently use the dawn and water mix and gently do the overall cleaning of the tort....then rinse the tort completely with warm water until the tort is completely clear of any residue from the soap mixture....then I would dry the tort completely...then I would apply a thin layer of the anti fungal cream to the affected area on the tort...I would then allow that to dry...then apply the tort to the tote environment (with basking light set up for day and night heat source for night)....I would then make offering of food but would not set a large water dish in the enclosure but would instead place a small dish of water strictly for drinking and not large enough for the tort to get into....and then I would plan to do this for the next few months...sounds tedious and it will certainly weigh on you during that time....but this is what I would do if faced with what you and the tort are dealing with....I would then dump all of the substrate and any porous items from the old enclosure and perhaps rethink the more permanent housing when the tort shell have recovered....also, I would make sure to gently scrub the tort before you allow him daily warm water soaks so that the cream will not be ingested easily....

Fungus and bacterium are a nasty bunch...tenacious as any ruffian tortoise and as annoying as sun in your eyes while driving...just a real pain..so my best advice to you, hunker down, get a grip on the fact you will need to defeat the enemy and do what has to be done and be more tenacious than it....that is is, that is all I can offer and I wish you and tort ALL THE BEST WISHES AND GODSPEED ON RECOVERY....


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## Whayla (Oct 24, 2014)

I want to thank you Ascott, not only for your advice, but your kindness. Seeing my tort in any danger is really taking a toll on my mental well being too, so thank you for offering constructive criticism without making me feel like a terrible mother.

I think your advice is exactly what I needed. I think you're right about wood, and I am willing to try anything to keep my Toot happy and healthy. Right now she is in a huge tortoise table about five feet to six feet long, two stories tall. Two to three feet wide. I want to keep her in a relatively large environment, where she can get the exercise she needs for the winter. 
Anyone molded two totes together? Ideas on double layers still without the convenience of wood?

I appreciate the warm wishes and for making me feel a lot better. I was losing it. *obviously*


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## ascott (Oct 24, 2014)

Whayla said:


> I want to thank you Ascott, not only for your advice, but your kindness. Seeing my tort in any danger is really taking a toll on my mental well being too, so thank you for offering constructive criticism without making me feel like a terrible mother.
> 
> I think your advice is exactly what I needed. I think you're right about wood, and I am willing to try anything to keep my Toot happy and healthy. Right now she is in a huge tortoise table about five feet to six feet long, two stories tall. Two to three feet wide. I want to keep her in a relatively large environment, where she can get the exercise she needs for the winter.
> Anyone molded two totes together? Ideas on double layers still without the convenience of wood?
> ...




I have seen here where folks have combined two of the totes by either cutting a part of each end out and connecting with a tunnel..or by completely cutting the entire end off of each one and combining them together by layering one within the other at the cut ends...the particulars of the actual mechanics I do not know???


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## Whayla (Oct 24, 2014)

Those are both great ideas! 
You have been a wonderful help. Much love..


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## Randi (Oct 24, 2014)

Is your tortoise still eating and/or acting normal? 

Is Dawn soap safe? I've been told never to use any dish soap near any reptile. I can't imagine it being very effective in ridding fungus and bacteria.

Alcohol in my opinion would be pretty rough on the shell. I'd use a betadine solution diluted til it looks like iced tea. Scrub the shell with a toothbrush after soaking. Betadine arrests the fungus but because it inhibits new growth, it's best to keep it to a minimum. I used it a few times then started using chlorhexidine baths and scrubs. It's easy on the shell for frequent use. This will keep the fungus away and promote new skin growth. You would do these scrubs every night or every second night. Applying atheletes foot cream (clotrimazole I believe) will help with the fungus. You definitely want to treat so it doesn't spread further into the plastron.

The environment sounds too moist. Humidity doesn't mean moist objects or substrates, really. It's moisture in the air. I make up for that in bathing mine a few times daily. I live in AB, Canada and it's unrealistic to have an 80% humidity in her tank. I mist one side of her tank and it's really only her moss and log. I wait til it's completely dry until I mist that side again. She has a large dish to soak in inside her tank. I keep it as dry as possible right now to prevent the fungus from coming back. 

I'm not an expert, this is my opinion and it is what I had done to cure mine. Please don't be so hard on yourself. There's so much to learn! And how can one know unless they run into a snag along the way? I hope I could offer some advice. Best of luck with your baby.


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## ascott (Oct 24, 2014)

Randi said:


> Is your tortoise still eating and/or acting normal?
> 
> Is Dawn soap safe? I've been told never to use any dish soap near any reptile. I can't imagine it being very effective in ridding fungus and bacteria.
> 
> ...




It is gentle on the eye areas and it is also gentle on the skin...it is good at cutting through alot of materials...you would be surprised on the many uses of this gentle soap....sometimes, there is nothing like some simple gentle soap and water....please understand, I am suggesting Dawn and not just any run of the mill dish detergent...


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## Whayla (Oct 26, 2014)

Randi said:


> Is your tortoise still eating and/or acting normal?
> 
> Is Dawn soap safe? I've been told never to use any dish soap near any reptile. I can't imagine it being very effective in ridding fungus and bacteria.
> 
> ...


The thread, would answer your questions and concerns, Randi. 
Yes, my tortoise is eating and acting normally. I noticed the signs of fungus early, so she was not acting out of the usual. As for soaking my Tortuga in alcohol, I would never do such a thing. I was talking about soaking my TORTOISE TABLE, not my actual animal; I am not uneducated. 
Dish soap is not only effective, it is a lot less harmful on their skin and eyes than most antibacterial washes. Take Betadine for example; you said so yourself that it doesn't allow new growth to form. That is why you are only supposed to use it ONCE. It is also very harmful to the animals eyes and can dry their skin out. I have only used Betadine on my tortoise at the first signs of shell rot, then continue treatment with chlorhexidine (hibiclens) and an antifungal.
I am treating my tortoise, and have been since I noticed signs. 
I appreciate the response and well wishes!! Glad we are both doing what we can to make sure the little ones are happy and healthy.


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## Randi (Oct 28, 2014)

I feel you have taken what I responded with the wrong way.. it wasn't said to make you feel inferior. I'm not sure where the miscommunication was but maybe I can clarify.

Although Betadine doesn't allow for regrowth, it's very effective in arresting the fungus. Normally the treatment with Betadine is a day or two. The amount of time Betadine is used for corresponds with how severe the fungus is. I've seen cases where a vet has recommended it for two weeks. Chlorhexidine is then used as it allows for regrowth.

Well.. ideally you would bathe your tortoise normally, then you would change and lower the water and put Betadine in. They would be supervised because you are scrubbing their plastron or wherever they have fungus. The risk of it getting into eyes seems quite low. 

As per "drying" the site out, you'd want that at the beginning to help with the fungus. Fungus thrives on moisture. You would apply cream lightly after scrubbing and allow the tortoise to dry.

Where I live, one mention of reptiles and dish soap and people cringe. Never had a vet recommend it. To my knowledge they use Hibiclens soap. I've never read about "dish" soap being an ok alternative but if it is a part of your practice, by all means continue. 

With all that being said, I only replied to this to give advice. If it is reoccuring, then there is likely a variable to change. I'll be the first to say I don't know everything and I'm willing to learn. I'm not an expert. This was the treatment I have used successfully with my little one and was hoping to help. Hope no offence was taken with anything I've said.


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## Alaskamike (Oct 30, 2014)

I read this thread with interest. Being in South Florida fungus / molds can be a problem in the rainy season especially. 

My outside heated box for my torts is plywood. I do keep a water pan in there for humidity and open top for sun and air out most days. They come and go out of it at will into their yards. 

Having been in the medical profession I am a great believer in bleach. I used a 1:10 solution to wipe down the inner plywood , let it air/ dry well, then put in my substrata ( orchard bark). 

When I clean it every few months or so, I will do this again. A 1:10 bleach solution kills almost everything. Mold- fungus - bacteria - most viruses will quickly die and not easily grow back. You cannot apply directly to shell however ! 

But to keep wood enclosures from this problem. It works for me.


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