# Indoor enclosure Substrates



## exoticsdr (Nov 28, 2010)

Going to be housing two 7-7 1/2" Aldabras in the house this winter with frequent extended time outside so lighting is not an issue. I've read differing opinions on substrate choices in other threads. What I am particularly interested in is the WHAT and WHY of these choices, and the same for those substrates that you would absolutely NOT use. I'm always interested in learning something new.


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## Missy (Nov 28, 2010)

I use dirt mixed with cocoa choir for my small Sulcata and cyrpress mulch for my big one. The cocoa choir holds moister and if eaten it will not harm him. The mulch is the cheaper way to go for the larger pen 8x10 and can be spot cleaned and is non toxic.


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## jackrat (Nov 28, 2010)

I like cypress mulch.It absorbs a lot of water,but the top dries relatively quickly.You get the benefit of the humidity of the water evaporating without having to worry about your animals staying on a wet substrate.I've never seen mold growing on it either.


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## Maggie Cummings (Nov 28, 2010)

I use cypress mulch or orchid bark. The animal can burrow into the cypress mulch, it doesn't smell and maybe the best part for orchid bark is I have had a small colony of box turtles on the same substrate for almost 5 years. I pull out poop when I see it and I stir it up at times and for the boxies it keeps the bugs and the worms that I have added growing until the turtles can find and eat them.
Cypress mulch stays fresh, doesn't mold, holds humidity very well and doesn't get dirt all over the tort or most important doesn't get dirt in the food. Tortoises like to burrow into it and it's easy for the torts to find an escaped super worm or the beetle that the worm morphs into.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Nov 28, 2010)

Yet another cypress mulch fan...good stuff: non-toxic, odorless, fun for torts to burrow ii, and cheap enough that you can change it weekly, if desired, w/o it costing much! 

Absolutely avoid cedar and/or pine shavings, alfalfa pellets, that sort of thing.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 28, 2010)

I got my two Aldabrans as hatchlings and set them up outside with a heated shed. They've never been kept in the house. I made a mistake in their care by having them on a bare floor. The cement floor was covered with rubber horse stall mats and wasn't cold, however, it was dry. We now know that babies require some humidity in order to grow smoothly. Both of my Aldabs are pyramided.

For other tortoises that have to be kept in during the winter (baby box turtles, baby desert tortoises, sick tortoises), I use fine grade orchid bark (from Orchard Supply Hardware) or cypress mulch. Both of these media can tolerate being wet without smelling or souring. The cypress mulch comes in bigger pieces than I would like, however if I pat it down with the palm of my hand it sort of compresses it and makes it easier for babies to walk on.

In the past (I've been doing this for over 40 years) I always raised my babies on oat hay pellets. Totally dry. This didn't seem to affect the desert tortoises, however my one leopard baby that I kept is quite pyramided.


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## exoticsdr (Nov 30, 2010)

So it seems that everyone is in agreement that cypress mulch and coconut fibre are preferable substrates. Let's hear about some of the substrates that should not be used and WHY. I've seen many references to alfalfa pellets being bad, hay being bad and many others and am very interested in the forum members opinions. I think that some of the choices will be reguarded as poor choices for obvious reasons, but the info could prove useful to new tortoise keepers and as always, I like to know what pet owners are thinking. thanks in advance and for the previous posts.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 30, 2010)

I might consider using a grass hay in one corner of a habitat, just for them to burrow into and maybe eat. But you can't wet it and babies require a moistened substrate to grow smoothly.

I used to use oat hay pellets (very similar to alfalfa pellets) to the exclusion of everything else. When the tortoise would pee it was quite easy to pick up the lump of stuck together pee/pellets and keep the habitat clean. The down side is it molds quickly if you don't keep it dry.

Pine substrate has oils that cause eye problems in baby tortoises. I have seen first hand a baby sulcata with burned corneas.


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## Balboa (Nov 30, 2010)

Aside from going rancid and getting mushy, most typical pet bedding options (pellets/nuggets/recycled paper/whatever) just seem too difficult for torts to walk on, which apparently leads to leg developement issues (though I've never seen that first-hand).

The only thing I dislike about orchid bark and cypress mulch is it still seems like a slightly awkward surface for my tortoises to walk on.

I've gotten flack for this before and it has been called no-better than pellets by folks I respect, but I'm still convinced a soil substrate is best. By this I mean that I blend compost formulated topsoil, peet and sand to create a nice substrate that affords good traction and provides ample drainage and moisture retention. Good old fashioned sandy loam.

I like to give my tortoises as naturalistic a home as I can.

Many keepers are strongly opposed to the use of sand in a substrate blend for fear of impaction. I contend however, that natural soil (which always contains some part of sand) is only a risk to poorly hydrated tortoises. They live on dirt in nature, so I give them dirt in captivity. I suspect a small amount of sand in the diet may be beneficial to aid in digestion and the horror stories of the past occured when tortoises were kept dehydrated on pure sand substrates of a clumping nature.

I may be wrong, and someday my tortoises may pay the price of my arrogance, but I sure hope not.


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## Maggie Cummings (Nov 30, 2010)

Yvonne left out one thing about oat hay pellets, it is very hard for hatchlings to walk on and can create problems with their legs.

I had 3 Sulcata yearlings and I gave them new substrate that had pine in it and within a few days one was dead, one had burned corneas and was blinded and I got the other out safely with no damage. Pine and cedar have toxins that make fumes and it's really bad stuff. We treated the one with the burned corneas for a couple of years, it was awful. The pain that his eyes caused him was seriously tragic... he hurt so bad that he would drool, it took about 2 years to get his eyes to a place where they didn't cause constant pain. The end result was being blinded in one eye with diminish sight in the other, but at least the pain stopped.


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## exoticsdr (Nov 30, 2010)

Balboa said:


> Aside from going rancid and getting mushy, most typical pet bedding options (pellets/nuggets/recycled paper/whatever) just seem too difficult for torts to walk on, which apparently leads to leg developement issues (though I've never seen that first-hand).
> 
> The only thing I dislike about orchid bark and cypress mulch is it still seems like a slightly awkward surface for my tortoises to walk on.
> 
> ...



I like this.


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## Kristina (Nov 30, 2010)

I use cypress for my Hingebacks and Redfoots, because they don't really dig and they are large enough that they can easily walk on it. It is covered in a layer of leaf litter also.

My Russians have topsoil covered with a layer of cypress mulch. 

For my babies, (Greek, Redfoot and Box turtles) I have a couple of inches of organic topsoil covered in a thin layer of coconut coir/sphagnum moss mix.

My adult Box turtles have soil covered in leaf litter and leaf mulch. 

Reptibark is another one that I think is HORRIBLE. It molds when wet, and doesn't hold moisture well so instead of being more uniformly damp, all the water sinks to the bottom and gets stinky. It also is hard to walk on and stains the tortoise red after awhile. I used it very briefly with my first tortoise, oh, about 12 years ago, and hated it. One of my Redfoots was a drop off, and she was dehydrated and stained red from the bark.







The coconut shell chips (which are also called coir) I don't like because they are big chunks and again hard to walk on.


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## DeanS (Nov 30, 2010)

coco coir exclusively for indoor habitats...


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## exoticsdr (Nov 30, 2010)

Now THAT'S what I'm talking about. have to agree on the Reptibark...horrible product, have done many a gastrotomy or enterotomy to remove this product from unlucky reptiles.


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## Balboa (Dec 1, 2010)

Go figure, here I'm worried about the sand blended soil and the vet likes that, but the reptibark I dust the muddy, high traffic areas of the enclosure with is the hazard. I liked the reptibark as its basically the same thing as orchid bark only smaller, and makes a nice, firm, dry surface when worked into the muck. Think maybe I'll stop that practice now


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## exoticsdr (Dec 1, 2010)

I'm mainly concerned with indoor enclosures in this thread, I've never seen an impaction in a tort or other reptile living in an outdoor enclosure, even with a wide variety of substrates that I wouldn't use in an indoor enclosure for fear of an impaction. Have to admit that most of the problems I see arise from new owners taking the advice of petstore employees selling products for the new pet's environment. I believe the chances of running into a problem with reptibark in your outdoor enclosure, unless you are feeding directly on top of it, are pretty slim.


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## ChiKat (Dec 1, 2010)

I used coco coir/sand when Nelson was little but I did find the sand to be a bit irritating.
Then I used plain coco coir which was fine but I wanted something with a little more traction. 
I mixed coco coir with top soil and my tort really seemed to enjoy it.
I just hate buying so many bricks of coco coir for Nelson's large enclosure. I'm currently using plain organic top soil and couldn't be happier!

Everyone rants and raves about the cypress mulch but it always looks so..."splintery" in pictures. I feel like it would poke my little man.


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## PeanutbuttER (Dec 1, 2010)

I second that I hated buying so many bricks of coir and then making it brick or two at a time in a bucket. It took forever to fill up my tort table. That is one of the reasons why I changed to cypress.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 1, 2010)

I tried re-hydrated coconut coir and I really didn't like it. There were long strings which I occasionally found hanging out of a small tortoise's mouth. The tortoises track it all over their food (which might not be harmful if ingested, but I didn't like it)


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## Shelly (Dec 1, 2010)

Balboa said:


> I'm still convinced a soil substrate is best. By this I mean that I blend compost formulated topsoil, peet and sand to create a nice substrate that affords good traction and provides ample drainage and moisture retention. Good old fashioned sandy loam.
> 
> I like to give my tortoises as naturalistic a home as I can.
> 
> Many keepers are strongly opposed to the use of sand in a substrate blend for fear of impaction. I contend however, that natural soil (which always contains some part of sand) is only a risk to poorly hydrated tortoises. They live on dirt in nature, so I give them dirt in captivity. I suspect a small amount of sand in the diet may be beneficial to aid in digestion and the horror stories of the past occured when tortoises were kept dehydrated on pure sand substrates of a clumping nature.



I agree with this. I keep my young Desert Torts on dirt.


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## yagyujubei (Dec 2, 2010)

I use a mixture of topsoil and coir, and a thin layer of cypress mulch on top. I think the mulch provides firmer footing, and keeps their feet cleaner (less tracking).


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## Tom (Dec 2, 2010)

I like cypress mulch, orchid bark, coco coir, chips and fine coco, peat, long fibered peat moss and plain soil, with no additives. I have used all of these for years and never had any problems with any species of reptile. I like them all because because you can keep them wet for humidity and none of them mold, grow fungus, rot or stink. Also, since I soak small indoor torts daily, they never poop in their enclosure and all of the above lasts forever. I NEVER clean out and replace substrate. I stir it up from time to time and I'll dump it if a new animal is going into that enclosure, but that's it.

I don't like any type of pellet. You can't keep them wet, so no humidity and no water bowl. They also turn to dust after a week or two and make a mess of your house. I've never had a problem with little ones walking on it in the past when I used to use it, but its just too dry.

I don't like sand by its self or as a mixture. Its messy and I've seen to many impactions.

I don't like any other substrate that can't be kept wet. As far as I can tell right now ALL species need humidity as babies. I could be wrong on this. There might be an exception somewhere, but I haven't found it yet.


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## -ryan- (Dec 5, 2010)

I find that it's always good to start out trying plain old dirt. I am a big fan of dirt, but that being said, it is not always practical. For instance, I use cypress mulch with my red foot because it holds humidity well and is not a weight issue (as his enclosure is above my russian enclosure). I used to have my russian breeding group on 8" of dirt (throughout their enclosure) but I have since switched to using 8" of dirt in a sunken concrete mixing bin (2'x3'), and the rest of the enclosure is just hay, which is inexpensive and light. Most of my other enclosures I utilize about 2-3" of regular old dirt. Really, dirt is my favorite substrate, but to be most effective you usually need a lot of it to create a substrate with good moisture-holding capabilities while retaining appropriate drainage properties.

I use coconut coir bedding in my hatchling enclosures. BTW: Sold 3 russian hatchlings last Sunday, and today another clutch is hatching. They are very prolific and a testament to the effectiveness of a good deep layer of dirt (as my females refuse to use more traditional nesting boxes or piles of dirt as many others will indoors.)


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## Terry Allan Hall (Dec 9, 2010)

Balboa said:


> Aside from going rancid and getting mushy, most typical pet bedding options (pellets/nuggets/recycled paper/whatever) just seem too difficult for torts to walk on, which apparently leads to leg developement issues (though I've never seen that first-hand).
> 
> The only thing I dislike about orchid bark and cypress mulch is it still seems like a slightly awkward surface for my tortoises to walk on.
> 
> ...



I'm inclined to agree that sandy loam is a very good substrata...as you correctly point out, it's pretty much what tortoises have been walking over/digging into for millenia!

Nature's way is just fine, but for the short amount of time my torts stay inside (cold part of the year only), cypress mulch works great, too...sandy loam is what they live on outside for most of the year, though.

I mix mine about 20% compost, 50% top-soil earth and 30% play" sand, well mixed before spreading it about 4-6" deep in my outside encosures...lots of good things grow in that mixture, and the torts can dig in if they feel the urge.


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## Madkins007 (Dec 10, 2010)

My NO! List...
- Carpet- Just plain messy as the tortoise drags its feces through it
- Hard surfaces like linoleum, woods, etc.- too smooth, no natural behaviors, deformed limbs, no water or feces absorption
- Skinned rubber foam, like exercise mats- no natural behaviors, no absorption
- Sand- Unstable, messy, causes blockages under some conditions. May be OK in small areas.
- Food pellets- messy and molds when damp, unstable, harbors germs
- Artificial mulches (shredded rubber, etc.)- smelly, harsh, non-absorbing
- Cedar mulch or shavings- known health risk. Pine is less well documented as a risk, but many avoid it as well.
- Pebbles, marbles, etc.- slippery, hard to clean. OK in small areas
- Smelly or 'enriched' bagged soils- strong smells are just bad news, and enriched products may include chemicals, etc. The worst are the little white chemical balls that torts love to eat

My "There Are Better Choices in My Opinion" List...
- Bagged pet store barks and mulches- cheaper in larger bulk at the home or garden center
- Coconut products- Not bad at all, but I think hardwood mulch is better, and I got a lot of pests when I used it
- Moss- My experiences with various mosses is only so-so
- Most soil-based mixes- see below

My Faves...
- Cypress or other hardwood mulches or chips that do not smell strongly of cedar (or maybe even pine)- for all of the reasons give above, plus it is light weight, which is a blessing in a larger table or indoor pen!
- Bioactive substrate- Not good for smaller spaces, but great otherwise. Combine a good soil mix with some sand and organic material (mulch, loam, compost, moss) in a 2-6" layer. Add some healthy garden soil, worms, and isopods/wood lice. pill or sow bugs. Keep slightly moist and stir periodically. What will happen is beneficial microbes will colonize the soil and sand to give the soil a silky feel that does not stick to the tortoises and has almost no smell. It will 'digest' feces and some food wastes (still remove as much as you can), and fight common pests. It compacts easily under the tortoise's constant clomping, but still allows some digging and nestling. You can also grow plants in it.


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## Edna (Dec 10, 2010)

Balboa said:


> The only thing I dislike about orchid bark and cypress mulch is it still seems like a slightly awkward surface for my tortoises to walk on.



I can tell you for certain that my tortoises are not concerned about the surface being awkward to walk on. I think they welcome and even search out awkward. They go over rocks, logs, and plants as if they weren't even there, and never seem bothered by the cypress mulch. Part of a naturalistic enclosure is challenges similar to what they might encounter in the wild.


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## tortoises101 (Dec 23, 2010)

Aldabras live on well drained landscapes in the wild, and this can be replicated in captivity by a 70/30 mix of play sand and topsoil. I wouldn't add too many decorations, just a few robust plants or some opuntia cacti.


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## russianhenry (Jan 5, 2011)

exoticsdr said:


> I'm mainly concerned with indoor enclosures in this thread, I've never seen an impaction in a tort or other reptile living in an outdoor enclosure, even with a wide variety of substrates that I wouldn't use in an indoor enclosure for fear of an impaction. Have to admit that most of the problems I see arise from new owners taking the advice of petstore employees selling products for the new pet's environment. I believe the chances of running into a problem with reptibark in your outdoor enclosure, unless you are feeding directly on top of it, are pretty slim.



Totally agree. My russian was on alfalfa pellets when I got her and they told me I had to get that otherwise she would get gut impaction. Thought this was strange, should have listened to my gut. I got her last Thursday and am changing her substrate to coco coir w/ sand. It is an indoor enclosure in the winter.


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## exoticsdr (Jan 5, 2011)

I would be leary of using too much sand.....I have seem more impactions due to sand substrate than any other.


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## mike1011 (Jan 5, 2011)

Hello, I've been using the sand/ topsoil mix for several years now with aldabs. It works extremely well especially cleaning. It has to be sanitized daily any changed frequently as they get big(they **** ALOT and it is RANCID) When larger depending on what they are fed on they will not intake enough to harm.

I should have mentioned that this is in their heated shed, but I would still use it in an indoor enclosure as well.


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## russianhenry (Jan 5, 2011)

exoticsdr said:


> I would be leary of using too much sand.....I have seem more impactions due to sand substrate than any other.


Alright so just coco coir? I have a pretty humid house but I think she might need more, especially while she is inside.


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