# viviariums or tortoise tables?



## NickPoole (Feb 4, 2009)

Hi all,

I'm looking into buying a couple of tortoises this summer, so I'm trying to get as much information about caring for them as possible. One thing that I'm getting mixed messages about is whether viviariums are a good idea or not.

They seem to be easier to regulate temperature wise, but might get humid and lack ventilation. Tortoise tables on the other hand seem to be the complete opposite: well ventilated and easier to control humidity, but not so easy to keep at the right temperature.

One thing I do need to keep in mind is that the only real place I can set up the environment is in an area of my house that is extremely hard to keep warm during the winter, but also very hot during the summer.

Is a viviarium my only real option here, and if so is there a good way to keep it ventilated?

Thanks,

Nick


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## tortoisenerd (Feb 4, 2009)

What species are you looking at? Age/size? Are you planning to house them together (you said a couple tortoises). I wouldn't blanketly say you need to use a vivarium...with enough work you could have any type of enclosure. Why I ask which species is because a tort like a Red Foot will need a lot more humidity (and have different requirements in general) than another type of tort like a Russian, etc. Each tort type has very different requirements as far as an enclosure. With some more info I'm sure you will get some great insight here. That's great you are planning ahead.

If your area is hard to keep warm, you can use either a vivarium or table and cover part of it, using heat emitters or other heat devices as needed (no heat pads though please). If it's hot during the summer, you can ventilate the enclosure and not have as many heat sources, etc. You likely will need to change at least some aspects of the enclosure due to the season.


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## NickPoole (Feb 4, 2009)

tortoisenerd said:


> What species are you looking at? Age/size? Are you planning to house them together (you said a couple tortoises).



I'd like two hermann tortoises, preferably in the same enclosure (that's something else I need to clarify). With the UK legal requirements, I'll be buying from a breeder, so I expect around a year or so old. I understand they grow to around 20cm, but I'm not sure how big they'll be at that age.

One thing I'm considering, after reading through some other the other enclosure threads, is possibly a table with removable hood; making it act more like a vivarium during the colder seasons. Obviously with ventilation built into the hood. That would make it easy enough to change the enclose to suit the external environment. Am I going in the right direction here?


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## tortoisenerd (Feb 4, 2009)

I don't have experience with Hermann's (you may want to post on that sub forum or hopefully you'll get more responses soon). What is your house temperature average in the different seasons? Hermanns don't need a very humid environment, comparatively, but vivariums seem more common in the UK. Those of us in the US may think of a vivarium as a covered aquarium with some plants, but from what I know in the UK they are usually vented and not considered the bad option like they are generally considered here. I've also heard some of you in the UK tend to keep your houses cooler, and vivariums are more common there to keep the tort warm enough, creating it's own little ecosystem. Sorry I don't have much further advice...


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## NickPoole (Feb 4, 2009)

tortoisenerd said:


> Those of us in the US may think of a vivarium as a covered aquarium with some plants, but from what I know in the UK they are usually vented and not considered the bad option like they are generally considered here. I've also heard some of you in the UK tend to keep your houses cooler, and vivariums are more common there to keep the tort warm enough, creating it's own little ecosystem. Sorry I don't have much further advice...



Not at all, thanks for the advise so far; I hadn't considered difference in views of what a vivarium actually is. These are the ones I dad been looking at: http://www.tortoisecentre.co.uk/vivariums.htm.

Seeing how popular custom build encloses are has fired me up, so I'll start looking into it. Naturally I'll check back before actually building anything, but as I understand it, a good environment should had regulated temperature, low humidity and good airflow. The good air-flow and regulated temperature points are going to be difficult to implement at the same time.


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## tortoisenerd (Feb 4, 2009)

Another important aspect to add to your list is a temperature gradient. You don't want the same temperature throughout; tortoises thermo-regulate, and will move around an enclosure with a gradient to find the right temperature for themselves. This is commonly thought of as more difficult in an aquarium or vivarium sort of enclosure, but not impossible.

The vivariums at that site are a step up from the closed aquarium, but I personally think there should be more ventilation, and you'd need one of the largest sizes or bigger to accommodate two adult Hermanns.


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## Millerlite (Feb 4, 2009)

if you can build a tortoise table and have room for one, then go with the tortoise table, Vivs are not made for tortoises, you want good ventilation and air flow. No matter the size of the tortoise the table will be better, outdoors even better. Go with a tortoise table.


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## NickPoole (Feb 4, 2009)

tortoisenerd:
Yeah, I thought the standard ones seemed a little small for two adults, but I'm still unsure of how fast they grow. The temperature gradient might be easiest solved with ventilation (a fan blowing in cool air from one side should work).

Millerlite:
I understand the negative aspects of a vivarium, but a tortoise table will be very hard to keep at the right temperature in my case. Also, summer temperatures in the UK tend to be too low (15 Celsius) to keep tortoises outside. Size isn't really an issue, and I have no intention of using a standard reptile vivarium; humidity and airflow would be too low. I'm now thinking more along the lines of an enclosed table, such that the temperature can be kept stable whilst keeping low humidity and good airflow.


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## Millerlite (Feb 4, 2009)

if you go with a vivarium look, you can always build your own, you want a lot of floor space. Most vivs dont have that but if you build your own you could provide the floor space needed. I can find pictures of some ideas. I would say build your own.


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## NickPoole (Feb 5, 2009)

Millerlite said:


> if you go with a vivarium look, you can always build your own, you want a lot of floor space. Most vivs dont have that but if you build your own you could provide the floor space needed. I can find pictures of some ideas. I would say build your own.



I agree, it would seem that building my own is my best option. If you can find some good example photos I'd be very appreciative. How much space would you recommend?


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## tortoisenerd (Feb 5, 2009)

I would recommend posting on the Hermann's forum and getting some feedback on the possibility of two torts together. Usually that is not recommended, as torts are solitary creatures, and see another tort in the wild usually just to mate.

The size of the enclosure would depend on what age/size of the tort, and 1 vs. 2. Also, if you want to build one enclosure to last you "forever", or want to expand it later. Usually if you are starting with a hatchling or juvenille tort, you want the enclosure to expand with them as they grow, so you don't have a shrinking enclosure, growing tort sort of phenomenon.

Someone familiar with the requirements of the species and their growth rates will be able to advise you also on the enclosure size. As big as you can make it is always better. Some people are now recommending rectangular vs. square due to being able to reach everything, some torts prefer it, and it seems to take up less space in the house.

If you Google "tortoise table" or "tortoise enclosure" you'll find a wealth of information, photos, and instructions. Also, the Enclosures section of this board has lots of tips.


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## Millerlite (Feb 5, 2009)

Two tortoises would do fine together. If you have enough room you should not have a problem. I have kept more then one box turtle together, and tortoise together never had problem, the key is to have enough room for them both to be comfortable. You do however get aggressive tortoise that are just aggressive, you might have to separate them, but its very possible to house two tortoises together without having a problem.


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## NickPoole (Feb 6, 2009)

Thanks for all the advice. I'm going to check with the hermann board regarding the size, but so far what I have in mind is something like this:

http://www.black-sphere.co.uk/gallery/Tortoise/tort-viv.jpg

The sketch is based on a footprint of 1m x 2m. I'm considering increasing the hight, as it's only 0.6. There will be a lid in the top section containing the heating and lighting kit (one thermotube each end set slightly differently, a number of uva tubes and a hotspot).

The fans should help keep one side cooler than other whilst keeping good ventilation.

Am I on the right track here? Obviously I may have to change the size based on the advice from the hermann boards, but apart from that, is this likely to be suitable or is it still no better than a large off-the-shelf vivarium?


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## REDFOOTMATT (Feb 6, 2009)

I do have some hatchlings that are temporarily in a viv. for the winter. I find they do have some stress with a transparent barrier. They don't understand it and can rub their noses excessivley on it. Not so much the hatchlings but the juvi's. It's not natural for them.


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## NickPoole (Feb 6, 2009)

I read that the glass can be cause stress issues, so I'm factoring that into my design: 20cm wooden rim below the glass.

I'm debating buying the lighting system and seeing if I can maintain a good temperature around a storage bin. If so I'll go with that design for a table, but it seems so wasteful with the heat escaping.


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## Maggie Cummings (Feb 6, 2009)

Most experienced tortoise keepers will say that you shouldn't try to raise a tortoise in an aquarium or a viv. I don't believe that, altho I used to. I have kept several tortoises in aquariums...big ones... 200 gallons. The temp gradient is easier to achieve in a viv or aquarium. I recently moved my small tortoises from a 200 gallon aquarium to a big beautiful tort table. I think the move was made about a month and a half ago. I still cannot get the temp right. It goes from 110 degrees to 70. One of my very favorite little tortoises has not adjusted to the new tort table and has gotten very sick. While the others in the colony have adjusted fine. The temp on one side right now is 74 degrees. It has a 150 watt CHE and a black light bulb. On the other side, 7 feet away the temp is 105 degrees. It has 2 black light bulbs. I realize on paper that sounds fine, but in the morning both sides will be in the low 60"s much too cool for my little tortoises. It takes all day to get the hot side hot. At 15:00 it was still below 80. I really wanted this table, but I ain't so happy now. I just don't know how to get the temperatures on both ends to stay consistent...
I think in your case with the room getting as cold as you said I would go with the viv...and just wrap newspaper or something like that on the outside of the tank at tort level...


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## NickPoole (Feb 6, 2009)

Thanks Maggie, this gives me more confidence with the route I'm going. I'm think I'm going to try and build the hybrid tortoise table and vivarium that I've described in my previous posts.


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