# Russian breeding



## TortoiseBoy1999 (Aug 8, 2012)

Can you breed two Russian's if they are different sub species?


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## TortoiseBoy1999 (Aug 8, 2012)

Anyone?


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## jaizei (Aug 8, 2012)

I wonder what would happen if one were to type "russian subspecies breeding" in the search box?

https://www.google.com/cse?cx=partn...&gsc.q=russian subspecies breeding&gsc.page=1

Amazing.


When dealing with subspecies, it may not just be a question of whether you can breed them but whether you should. Opinions can vary greatly.


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## TortoiseBoy1999 (Aug 8, 2012)

jaizei said:


> I wonder what would happen if one were to type "russian subspecies breeding" in the search box?
> 
> https://www.google.com/cse?cx=partn...&gsc.q=russian subspecies breeding&gsc.page=1
> 
> ...



So can I?


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## jaizei (Aug 8, 2012)

Can you or should you? One of those questions was answered by the link. The other is up to you.


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## Ethan D (Aug 8, 2012)

Can you....... Yes............ Should you, in my opinion, No. I do not cross subspecies of any animals just because it is usually frowned upon GREATLY. For instance, someone who breeds a Columbian Boa Constrictor to a Suriname Boa Constrictor (_ B.C.I to B.C.C.) , you get a cross species that is very odd, it has the size of a suriname and pattern and temperament of both boas combined. Is some cases cross breeding is very detrimental to the offspring itself. There is a lot to go wrong when making a cross breed, it is a huge gamble._


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## TortoiseBoy1999 (Aug 8, 2012)

But I can do it right? I mean nothing will go wrong? I at least want to try :/ I mean what could go wrong? Boa's are different they have different patterns and stuff, but they are just tortoise's just Russian tortoise


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## Blastoise (Aug 8, 2012)

I think it would be fine. I have a pretty hard time telling the difference between the subspecies anyway. In fact, I plan on breeding Russians from different subspecies as soon as they are old enough to breed, might be a few more years yet. And yes, nothing will go wrong, healthy little russian tortoises will be the result.


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## TortoiseBoy1999 (Aug 8, 2012)

Blastoise said:


> I think it would be fine. I have a pretty hard time telling the difference between the subspecies anyway. In fact, I plan on breeding Russians from different subspecies as soon as they are old enough to breed, might be a few more years yet. And yes, nothing will go wrong, healthy little russian tortoises will be the result.



THANK you Blastoise


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Aug 8, 2012)

As a rule, subspecies can be crossed without any negative effects. The offspring will be viable, healthy, and fertile.

From a purely pet perspective, breeding at or below the species level is safe.

Mixing does, however, tend to lead to intermediate characteristics in the offspring. In other words, if one parent comes from a larger subspecies and the other from a smaller one, the offspring may be intermediate in size. Same thing may apply to color, shape, etc.

From a conservation perspective, that can be bad because the unique traits of each subspecies may be lost, making the offspring less fit for the environment in which the parent species evolved. For example, if one parent was native to a hotter climate, and the other a colder climate, then the offspring, rather than being adapted to both, are likely to be suited to neither.

Again, none of that really matters to a pet living in the backyard. However, at the rate tortoises (and other animals) are becoming endangered, at some point captive lines may be needed for reintroduction in the wild. For that reason, it is better to keep subspecies separate, so that they will make better stock for rewilding someday down the line.


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## CactusVinnie (Aug 12, 2012)

"Blastoise" said:


> I have a pretty hard time telling the difference between the subspecies anyway.



Blastoise, you have a hard time telling the subspecies because you are dealing mostly with Kazakhstanica, and a little Kuznetzovi intergrades  - that is as far as I could get, but surely most complicated than that.

*@TortoiseBoy1999:*
I would wait- anyway having to wait until sexual maturity of tortoise- and look for as much as similar mates for my tortoises. 
As GTT said, lots of factors that you cannot immagine go into that ecuation of cross-breeding. Even hobbyst should be responsable and as scientific as possible, because you never know if your "just pet tortoises" would be very important some day- oh, yes, concerning the tortoises, we rather *can* anticipate that! 

Later, when more knowledge will be available for us, people will realise that they shouldn't have cross-bred their tortoises. 
Just take the example of Testudo hermanni herzegovinensis X boettgeri hybrids, when none was aware that these are different... or the more flagrant case of T.h.boettgeri X T.h. *hermanni* (!!!), where even releasing in pure T.h.h. habitat of those hybrids happened. In Var region, France, a study revealed a horror story: 17% of that population were HYBRIDS ! I don't remember where I read this, but I remember the percentage. 
As for T. graeca... also plenty of hybrids between all the african taxons, and with the Ibera group too. Genetic mayhem!!

So, concerning Horsfieldis, we are again at the beginning, making the same mistakes once done with other species/subspecies. We just don't know enough about these tortoises NOW, but we will find later... maybe too late, as for the previous mentioned ones. 

Be patient and responsable. You can breed 2 ssp., each one separate, or concentrate on a single one, as you wish. Just try to match them as much as possible.


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## TortoiseBoy1999 (Aug 13, 2012)

CactusVinnie said:


> Blastoise, you have a hard time telling the subspecies because you are dealing mostly with Kazakhstanica, and a little Kuznetzovi intergrades  - that is as far as I could get, but surely most complicated than that.
> 
> @TortoiseBoy1999:
> I would wait- anyway having to wait until sexual maturity of tortoise- and look for as much as similar mates for my tortoises.
> ...



:/


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Aug 14, 2012)

TortoiseBoy1999 said:


> :/



?


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## TortoiseBoy1999 (Aug 16, 2012)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> ?



What?


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Aug 17, 2012)

TortoiseBoy1999 said:


> GeoTerraTestudo said:
> 
> 
> > ?
> ...



How come you quoted a whole paragraph, and then all you added was a funny face?


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## dmmj (Aug 17, 2012)

So does anyone know if the different subspecies different genetically, or are they just cosmetic differences?


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Aug 17, 2012)

dmmj said:


> So does anyone know if the different subspecies different genetically, or are they just cosmetic differences?



You mean, are the differences in shell shape due to genes or the environment? Well, different populations are going to have different genes. Since Russians don't tend to change much in captivity (barring pyramiding or MBD), I would think the morphological differences are due more to genetics.


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## TortoiseBoy1999 (Aug 17, 2012)

Interesting


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## TortoiseBoy1999 (Sep 26, 2012)

Do you think my Russian could lay egg's? The thought of it is just mind boggling to me! I was looking at my baby (not really a baby, an adult) Russian tortoise today and thought: "but shes to small! She can't possibly lay eggs!" How big are the eggs going to be? I always see Sulcata's and Leopards laying eggs, but they are so big! And what should I keep the babies on? (wet paper towels, coco coir, etc, etc) I am going to breed her for the first time this spring so these questions were running thru my head today and I didn't want to make ANOTHER thread  thanks guys


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## Eweezyfosheezy (Sep 26, 2012)

How big is she? From the pics it looks like she's big enough. Testudo eggs are much smaller than any leopard or sulcata egg. Russians only lay a few eggs whereas sulcatas and leopards are can easily go over 10 per clutch.


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## TortoiseBoy1999 (Sep 27, 2012)

Eweezyfosheezy said:


> How big is she? From the pics it looks like she's big enough. Testudo eggs are much smaller than any leopard or sulcata egg. Russians only lay a few eggs whereas sulcatas and leopards are can easily go over 10 per clutch.



She is 7 inches long. And 6 inches wide. What about my other questions?


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## Eweezyfosheezy (Sep 27, 2012)

Yes she is plenty big. She's growing like a weed! You can keep the hatchlings on wet paper towels until their yolk sacks are absorbed. After that you can put them in a regular enclosure you'd keep the babies in.


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## TortoiseBoy1999 (Sep 27, 2012)

Eweezyfosheezy said:


> Yes she is plenty big. She's growing like a weed! You can keep the hatchlings on wet paper towels until their yolk sacks are absorbed. After that you can put them in a regular enclosure you'd keep the babies in.



Ok. How big will the eggs be?


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## Eweezyfosheezy (Sep 27, 2012)

A little over an inch I'd say, I cant find my measuring tape or I'd get you an exact size.


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## TortoiseBoy1999 (Sep 27, 2012)

Eweezyfosheezy said:


> A little over an inch I'd say, I cant find my measuring tape or I'd get you an exact size.



Ok! Thank you!


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