# What makes you an "expert"?



## AnimalLady (Oct 22, 2015)

Is it vast experience with a certain species? Is it the length of time you have cared for a tortoise or tortoises? What exactly would you define a tort expert to be?

*Honest question*


----------



## Tom (Oct 22, 2015)

Certainly length of time and experience are factors, but there has got to be something more to it than just time. How many people have been breeding sulcatas or leopards for decades and still start them way too dry? Certainly you must have time and experience with the subject matter to be an "expert", but time and experience alone do not make someone an expert.

I can point to examples of people that I think are experts, but it is difficult to define what makes that distention in my mind. Lots of people keep Aldabra tortoises, but I consider Aldabraman to be a true expert on this species because of his clear experience based knowledge of the subject and because of his remarkable success with the species compared to his peers. I define success as long term health and well being of the animals as well as reproduction rate and health of babies. The man knows what he is doing. Likewise, I consider JD an expert on the RF. GB and Chris are experts with Testudo. Neal is an expert on stars and leopards. Etc...


----------



## AnimalLady (Oct 22, 2015)

Would you consider yourself an expert?

So, you would consider these people to be experts on the specific species they care for? Do you know anyone to be just an all around tortoise expert? Like a general expert on tortoises..? I'm assuming this would be achieved by people who care for many different species and not just one or two, but I'm not sure.


I'm not sure ive been here long enough to gauge the experts per say, but based on all of your responses to me at least, I do consider you to be pretty high up there in expert world.


----------



## Alaskamike (Oct 22, 2015)

"Expert" is maybe not the right word. But it might have to do. In my mind I seek out the knowledgable and experienced with proven results. 

The best information and advise comes from there. But .... 

Experts can be wrong. And novices can discover new and valuable things. Every area of knowledge and discovery expands and grows with each additional discovery. 

I find the more I learn the more I understand I don't know. Quite a paradox. And the ability to keep ones mind open to new possibilities can cloud with " Expert " status. 

General Motors were " experts" at making cars - till Japanese innovative manufactures put them in bankruptcy. And the best theoretical scientists in the world just knew the Universe was static till discovery of the Red Light shift proved it was expanding at an astronomical rate. 

Great knowledge tempered with reasonable humility and a thirst for more makes an expert in my book. 

We certainly have some on the Tortoise Forum


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 22, 2015)

An expert on any topic is defined practically on to what extent others will seek their advice, opinion, or counsel. That definition transcends being someone a newbie might seek out because they are so un-exposed to the topic area they don't know who longer term exposure people seek help with.

Another way to express the same POV is best illustrated before modern communications.

If in a town of several hundred people someone (an apple farmer with an extra large crop for several years) wanted to know how to build an ice chest for storing apples for a long time, but a larger one than is commonly used in this particular town, They might go the ice house where all the ice is received into the town and ask that supplier, how big can I build it and how much ice will I need. That supplier is potentially mired in the dogma of how everyone in the town keeps their ice for food storage in a certain size range. They no doubt know other ice house owners from other towns and of course they know the ice supplier, so they ask, what to do in this novel situation. They now go withing their area of expertise to find an expert with a greater range of experience and knowledge.

Maybe one of these first reach-outs will have an answer, maybe it gets kicked up to an even higher order of magnitude ice supplier, maybe someone from an area where everyone has larger ice houses, so it is already on-board knowledge. Maybe the ice house people reach out to a math/physics person to run the numbers and calculate a theoretical maximum size ice house to store x tons of apples for a certain duration.

The cause and effect of the interest from the initial apple grower has increase the expertise of everyone in the path of inquiry. That last person who says you will need three tons of ice for 20 tons of apples in an ice chest dug into the ground with a one foot layer of soil on it's roof, will make the apples last for six months end up being the 'expert'. But only if the other collected knowledge of the people in the path of inquiry also bring up whatever spoilage prevention will be required for such a large stockpile of apples, and how to keep vermin out, etc.

NO one person is an expert. It takes a team.

The problem that fouls up the whole team approach is politics, likes, prejudices, and the biggy, 'thought dogma'. Automatic thinking confined by the experience of experts.

One of my favorite quotes from a post card " There has been a surprising increase in the number of things I know nothing about" Ashleigh Brilliant. https://www.ashleighbrilliant.com/


----------



## AnimalLady (Oct 22, 2015)

Will said:


> An expert on any topic is defined practically on to what extent others will seek their advice, opinion, or counsel. That definition transcends being someone a newbie might seek out because they are so un-exposed to the topic area they don't know who longer term exposure people seek help with.
> 
> Another way to express the same POV is best illustrated before modern communications.
> 
> ...



Very nice response Will. It takes a team, I love this.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 22, 2015)

Opps, it's " There has been an _alarming_ increase in the number of things I know nothing about"


----------



## dmmj (Oct 22, 2015)

knowledge and passion I guess in my book anyways. knowledge, you know what you R talking about not just parroting back information you see & read and passion for a particular subject. I'm always eager to learn more about turtles and tortoises. I never want to stop learning.


----------



## AnimalLady (Oct 22, 2015)

dmmj said:


> knowledge and passion I guess in my book anyways. knowledge you know what you talking about not just parroting back information you see read and passion for a particular subject. I'm always eager to learn more about turtles and tortoises. I never want to stop learning.



Me too, I love learning, love it. I sometimes think I overload my brain, but I like it


----------



## Yvonne G (Oct 22, 2015)

I have been called a "so-called expert" in the past, and it really offended me. I'm not an expert on turtles and tortoises, however, I do have a wealth of experience dealing with sick and injured turtles and tortoises. It is that experience I delve back into when answering questions here on the Forum. But for general all around care, I look to others to provide the experience. I have several misshapen, bumpy tortoises here at the turtle farm that attest to my poor care, but I'm learning and growing. It's just too bad my animals had to teach me at their expense.


----------



## ZEROPILOT (Oct 22, 2015)

When it's obvious that you know more than most people on a given subject.
You are now the expert. 
Until someone else shows you up!
(I fancy myself an expert on certain types of vintage motorcycles, but recently I met someone who just blew me away with knowledge.)


----------



## AnimalLady (Oct 22, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> I have been called a "so-called expert" in the past, and it really offended me. I'm not an expert on turtles and tortoises, however, I do have a wealth of experience dealing with sick and injured turtles and tortoises. It is that experience I delve back into when answering questions here on the Forum. But for general all around care, I look to others to provide the experience. I have several misshapen, bumpy tortoises here at the turtle farm that attest to my poor care, but I'm learning and growing. It's just too bad my animals had to teach me at their expense.



Thats a really good way of learning though, Trial and Error work well.

I was going to call you an expert on tort health... but i retract that statement as i do not want to offend you.

You have surely taught me a thing or two in the short time i have been on here


----------



## ZEROPILOT (Oct 22, 2015)

Yes. there are several people here that I would call experts......And that would not be meant to offend. Just the opposite!


----------



## Yvonne G (Oct 22, 2015)

It was the "so called" part of the statement that offended me. I've never said I was an expert and that statement was meant to demean.

I have a lot of experience. Been caring for turtles and tortoises for over 30 years, however, if you don't learn and grow and change your way of doing things, update your care, then all those years don't mean squat.


----------



## ZEROPILOT (Oct 22, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> It was the "so called" part of the statement that offended me. I've never said I was an expert and that statement was meant to demean.
> 
> I have a lot of experience. Been caring for turtles and tortoises for over 30 years, however, if you don't learn and grow and change your way of doing things, update your care, then all those years don't mean squat.


Subtlety is not my strong point. I missed the "so called".


----------



## dmmj (Oct 22, 2015)

I call Yvonne an expert all the time, it makes her so angry


----------



## AnimalLady (Oct 22, 2015)

dmmj said:


> I call Yvonne an expert all the time, it makes her so angry


I missed that too, i'd offended too.

Oops, sorry quoted the wrong reply


----------



## AnimalLady (Oct 22, 2015)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Subtlety is not my strong point. I missed the "so called".


I meant it for this one


----------



## Tom (Oct 22, 2015)

AnimalLady said:


> Would you consider yourself an expert?



I've never given this any thought. I just do what I do, and I know what I know from experience. Some people have called me an "expert", but lots of people have called me lots of other names too. I don't really care what people call me one way or the other. I just like tortoises and want to learn all I can about them. I know more than some, and not as much as others. What does that make me?


----------



## Tom (Oct 22, 2015)

AnimalLady said:


> So, you would consider these people to be experts on the specific species they care for? Do you know anyone to be just an all around tortoise expert? Like a general expert on tortoises..? I'm assuming this would be achieved by people who care for many different species and not just one or two, but I'm not sure.



Hmm… So much food for thought here…

I don't see how someone can be an expert on something they have no knowledge of, and no experience with. I have extensive experience with a few species, but I have zero experience with others, so how can I be an "all around" tortoise expert when there are species that I know nothing about? How can anyone? While there is certainly general tortoise knowledge, there is no substitute for years of hands-on experience with many individuals of a given species. People like Will that have kept all sorts of species here in captivity, studied them in the wild, and also posses a great deal of book knowledge, are people that I would consider "all-around tortoise experts". Will doesn't know everything, but he certainly knows more than most people on the planet about tortoises.


----------



## AnimalLady (Oct 22, 2015)

Tom said:


> I've never given this any thought. I just do what I do, and I know what I know from experience. Some people have called me an "expert", but lots of people have called me lots of other names too. I don't really care what people call me one way or the other. I just like tortoises and want to learn all I can about them. I know more than some, and not as much as others. What does that make me?



A semi-expert 

No but really, you give off the impression that you know your (expletive deleted)


----------



## pepsiandjac (Oct 22, 2015)

AnimalLady said:


> A semi-expert
> 
> No but really, you give off the impression that you know your (expletive deleted).


Thats because he does know his (expletive deleted)


----------



## Tom (Oct 22, 2015)

AnimalLady said:


> A semi-expert
> 
> No but really, you give off the impression that you know your (expletive deleted).



I just know the (expletive deleted) I know, but there's a lot of (expletive deleted) I don't know too.

I just think back to all the things I _*DIDN'T*_ know 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago…
Then I wonder what new things I will know 5, 10 or 20 years from now.


----------



## AnimalLady (Oct 22, 2015)

But the fact that you acknowledge you don't know everything says a lot, and the fact that you are still hungry to learn more also says a lot.

Good stuff.


----------



## Neal (Oct 23, 2015)

AnimalLady said:


> Is it vast experience with a certain species? Is it the length of time you have cared for a tortoise or tortoises? What exactly would you define a tort expert to be?
> 
> *Honest question*



I dislike the term "expert", but as far as who I choose to pay attention to on the forum or in the hobby in general it would be someone with a significant amount of practical knowledge and actual hands on experience keeping tortoises. The term significant is subjective...it could mean a lot of experience in a short amount of time or a long time period of keeping tortoises. You have to be careful who's advice you choose to follow. As others have mentioned, someone who has kept tortoises for decades may not be promoting "good" practices and people who promote generally accepted "good" practices may not have the experience or knowledge to back it up.

For someone like me who has been around the block a couple of times (and still learning everyday), it's pretty easy to weed out who can support what they are saying and who is simply repeating what others have said. Both types have their value I suppose, but in order to identify someone I feel I could learn from, it takes a lot of time and evaluation to read and corroborate the things they share to determine whether or not I agree the individual knows what they're talking about.


----------



## AnimalLady (Oct 23, 2015)

Neal said:


> I dislike the term "expert", but as far as who I choose to pay attention to on the forum or in the hobby in general it would be someone with a significant amount of practical knowledge and actual hands on experience keeping tortoises. The term significant is subjective...it could mean a lot of experience in a short amount of time or a long time period of keeping tortoises. You have to be careful who's advice you choose to follow. As others have mentioned, someone who has kept tortoises for decades may not be promoting "good" practices and people who promote generally accepted "good" practices may not have the experience or knowledge to back it up.
> 
> For someone like me who has been around the block a couple of times (and still learning everyday), it's pretty easy to weed out who can support what they are saying and who is simply repeating what others have said. Both types have their value I suppose, but in order to identify someone I feel I could learn from, it takes a lot of time and evaluation to read and corroborate the things they share to determine whether or not I agree the individual knows what they're talking about.



I very much agree with you. It takes time for me to gauge if you know what you're talking about or not. I really don't know a thing about torts or reptiles in general, so, it's not second hand to me. I've read so much on here already I'd swear I was some degree of an expert lol, but really I feel when it comes to living creatures you need experience. Reading from a book will obviously help, but there's nothing like first hand experience..and that's one thing that ways heavy on my decision to trust your methods or not.


----------



## tartagon (Nov 7, 2015)

An expert to me is someone who not only has experience but knowledge that can be backed up by science. Someone with 30 years experience but unable to provide sources for their claims is less of an expert to me than someone who has 5 years experience but can provide multiple studies to prove his point. For example, if fruits should not be fed to a certain speces of tortoise, simplistic reasons like "because it's not their natural diet" is not good enough. I want to hear them talk about enzymes, gut flora etc. and provide sources for them.

An expert is someone who not only spent time with their animals but have extensive knowledge that they gained from research of reliable studies. My grandma has many years experience with tortoises but I doubt she knows much about humidity requirements or calcium : phosphorus ratios.

A reptile vet with extensive experience and knowledge in tortoises is someone I would normally consider an expert. But one must still be careful with mere qualifications. Recently, the field of psychology took a hard blow from the Reproducibility Project, which analyzed 100 peer-reviewed journal articles and found only 39% of their results could be reproduced.

Thankfully for the purpose of tortoise-keeping, hard sciences like medicine haven't been disproven in this way.

The introduction to the project pretty much sums up my thoughts:
_"Scientific claims should not gain credence because of the status or authority of their originator but by the replicability of their supporting evidence."_


----------



## Anyfoot (Nov 7, 2015)

tartagon said:


> An expert to me is someone who not only has experience but knowledge that can be backed up by science. Someone with 30 years experience but unable to provide sources for their claims is less of an expert to me than someone who has 5 years experience but can provide multiple studies to prove his point. For example, if fruits should not be fed to a certain speces of tortoise, simplistic reasons like "because it's not their natural diet" is not good enough. I want to hear them talk about enzymes, gut flora etc. and provide sources for them.
> 
> An expert is someone who not only spent time with their animals but have extensive knowledge that they gained from research of reliable studies. My grandma has many years experience with tortoises but I doubt she knows much about humidity requirements or calcium : phosphorus ratios.
> 
> ...


Speaking from experience here. Your tort needs a safety helmet and knee pads whilst skateboarding.


----------



## tartagon (Nov 7, 2015)

Anyfoot said:


> Speaking from experience here. Your tort needs a safety helmet and knee pads whilst skateboarding.



Haha! That's actually just a photo from google  My torts have been adopted by my aunt since I moved to Australia (they're very strict about keeping non-native animals as pets). I'll be moving back in a couple of years though, so I'm looking forward to keeping torts again.


----------



## Anyfoot (Nov 7, 2015)

tartagon said:


> Haha! That's actually just a photo from google  My torts have been adopted by my aunt since I moved to Australia (they're very strict about keeping non-native animals as pets). I'll be moving back in a couple of years though, so I'm looking forward to keeping torts again.


Welcome to the forum. So where will you be moving back to?


----------



## tartagon (Nov 7, 2015)

Anyfoot said:


> Welcome to the forum. So where will you be moving back to?


Back to the UK but haven't decided on where yet (I'll move to wherever I find work in). I used to live in London though.


----------

