# CDT or ADT?



## torkoal (Apr 29, 2015)

I want you who are expert help, we have a doubt about my Mexican peers. Some think that these turtles are desert tortoise and think they are G. morafkai with different coloration. Now the serious question: are CDT or ADT?


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## wellington (Apr 29, 2015)

They are beautiful. @tortadise should be able to help


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## Yvonne G (Apr 29, 2015)

From http://www.basinandrangewatch.org/Tortoise-Species.html


"Differences in microsatellite DNA alleles and maternal mitochondrial DNA were used by Murphy and other researchers to separate out more than one species in the desert group of tortoises. The two forms have been separate for apparently as long as 5-6 million years, and only hybridize in one small area in western Arizona.

Other differences include a much wider and box-like shell and longer gular scutes in the Mojave, while the Sonoran tortoise has a narrower, flatter pear-shaped shell. Mojave tortoises lay 5-16 eggs from April to mid-July, while Sonoran tortoise deposit on average 5 (1-12) eggs from early June to early August, associated with monsoonal rains. Mojave tortoises may have as many as 3 clutches per season, Sonoran only one every 1-2 years. Female Mojave tortoises become reproductively active at 176-178 millimeters carapace length, while Sonoran tortoises lay their first eggs at 220 mm carapace length.

A very high number of captive tortoise are hybrids.

The authors are examining the Morafka's desert tortoise in the far southern edge of its range in Sinaloan Thornscrub habitat in Mexico, as this population may be a third cryptic species of tortoise."

Taking the above description into account, I seem to have a mixture of both species of tortoise. I have some wider, box-like and some more pear-shaped.


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## torkoal (Apr 29, 2015)

Hello Yvonne 

if the truth is not much on the specimens, they are 4 different. what I know is that a Colorado wine and others not so much. yes, there is much talk of possible hybridization but other people tell me they are CDT that the ADT have a more reddish color.


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## tortadise (Apr 30, 2015)

Well phycical variances of the two are common. But that's common in all species too. It's almost impossible to tell physically. Sonorans usually do have a different color but not always.


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## torkoal (Apr 30, 2015)

if it is what I told them. for example I saw that there variasiones in Texas tortoise, some are clear and others are normal. I see that are very difficult CDT, at least 3 of them.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 30, 2015)

Extra scute too. Now, see? This last picture shows a more pear-shaped animal. The description I quoted above says the Sonorans are more pear-shaped. So, along with the lighter color and the shape, I'd guess this one is morafka.


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## tortadise (Apr 30, 2015)

torkoal said:


> if it is what I told them. for example I saw that there variasiones in Texas tortoise, some are clear and others are normal. I see that are very difficult CDT, at least 3 of them.
> View attachment 128082


Yes.mwe have noticed a variance in berlandieri as well that have come through. The ones in Mexico tend to be lighter as the topography gets much more arid and sandy soil.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (May 1, 2015)

Oh, now I finally get to see the pear shape in that last picture.
Quite frankly, I never seem to see that in the CDT I have encountered in SoCal. Everyone seemed box shaped Mojave style.
I kept reading "pear" shape and I would always say "what you talking about Willis?" cause I never could see it.
And is it darker shell colors in higher, rocky altitudes? and lighter in lower levels that are also sandier?


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## torkoal (May 1, 2015)

Yes, although it is only in some places. for example I have seen more yellow and less dark with a light-colored homogeneous. Now I am very interested what they tell me, I never thought so, I always thought they were a peculiar color variation, which was not linked to what they tell me.

Now, on the side of the CDT and MDT, it is what I think that is a variation of color (except the last 2 photos as I was told to Mexico brought years of Colorado). I'm interested enough that the Gopherus are my favorite genre of land tortoise and because I really love to learn from you.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (May 2, 2015)

Torkoal, you found the very best place to learn about how to care for our beloved gopherus, to keep them happy and healthy and thriving, not just surviving.
I adore the gopherus. Building awareness and education is always a very good thing. 

Pienso que soy muy patriota porque la tortuga goherus es la official reptil de el estado de California. Y son adorable!
(I guess I am very patriotic because the tortoise is the official State reptile. And they are adorable).

Saludos al DF! (Hello to the Federal District) : )


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