# Blackfish the documentary on Sea World tonight at 6 and 9



## Candy (Oct 24, 2013)

Just FYI. CNN is showing the wonderful documentary "Blackfish" tonight at 6:00 and 9:00 p.m. This is the truth about Orca's in captivity. There are former Sea World trainers who speak the truth about this industry.  Please let me know what you think if you watch it. 

http://blackfishmovie.com/


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## AnnV (Oct 24, 2013)

Watching.
Thanks!


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## Team Gomberg (Oct 24, 2013)

I wanna watch. But i don't have tv...maybe they have an internet channel? Time to google around..thx for the heads up


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## wellington (Oct 24, 2013)

Watching it now and have lost respect for Sea World. It's a shame what people will do for money.


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## Team Gomberg (Oct 24, 2013)

I found it online  watched some but I have to put the kiddos to bed now. I want to watch it in it's entirely eventually. I knew some of this stuff already and am glad others will finally know, too. 
The media spins a lot of stories. Not just whale attacks. Keep that in mind next time you watch the news.


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## sibi (Oct 24, 2013)

I knew about this problem for years. SeaWorld deserves all the negative publicity or gets. It's animal abuse any way you look at it. You can spin it like Shamu, but in the end, the animals were taught to kill out of desperation. Shame on SeaWorld!!!


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## wellington (Oct 24, 2013)

The bad thing is its a double edge sword. In some respect they and zoos are good. In other respects they are bad. If they would take the greed for money out of it and put more care into the animals well being, it would work for the animals and I believe the humans much better. I think most have known about a lot of this stuff. Seeing it put all together in one program, that's when it really hits of how many times things have gone bad. Also have to remember the trainers are ex trainers. They got to do what they wanted and only now it's something they are stepping up against.


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## EricIvins (Oct 24, 2013)

So what happens when someone makes "Blacktort" and exposes all the wrongs being done every day in the Tortoise world?


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## Tom (Oct 24, 2013)

I have not seen this, but I've been told by people who have that it is the typical animal rightist drivel and lies that we should all be accustomed too.

It's infuriating. It is these people's full time job to slander and lie about whoever it is they don't like this week. The people who would oppose them are busy actually doing real work and earning a living. It is a disgusting product of our current society. It's a shame that some people can't seem to see both sides of a story.


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## AnnV (Oct 24, 2013)

*Re: RE: Blackfish the documentary on Sea World tonight at 6 and 9*



EricIvins said:


> So what happens when someone makes "Blacktort" and exposes all the wrongs being done every day in the Tortoise world?



Blacktort.... lol
I own horses and have been in so many "animal exploitation" arguments. How far is too far? What is acceptable when we require an animal to serve us? And equines certainly run the gambit. 
But I must say that animals are often on the losing side of things when profit is involved. Especially when business administrators are not directly involved with the animals. The more the profit the worse it gets.


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## sibi (Oct 24, 2013)

I see both sides of the issue; however, when it comes to what's truly best for the people (trainers) and the animals they train, I side with "life" over profit any day. If that means doing away with orca shows at SeaWorld, and freeing the captive animals, so be it. These tremendous creatures shouldn't be keep in these small modules. Who here wouldn't chastise someone who would keep a 50 pound Sulcata in a 4'x4' enclosure? Who here would advocate that large tortoises should have access to a large backyard? Who here wouldn't take our tortoise to a vet if they knew they were sick? Then one can ask, "Is it better to give my tort to someone who could give him what he needs than to keep him in a small tank with no resources to make his life better?

On the other side, if they animals are truly loved, as the management of SeaWorld claim, and the conservation efforts are at the heart of these captivities, then SeaWorld has a responsibility to enlarge the enclosures of these animals. If, after 40+ years of observation, SeaWorld discovers that Orcas are a social species, that these animals have a lifetime bond with their calf's, that life is significantly shortened in captivity, then it's the responsibility of these owners to practice good husbandry. We expect owners of any animal to learn to practice good husbandry. And I certainly hold SeaWorld to the same standards for captivity.


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## ascott (Oct 24, 2013)

> "It was gruesome as they closed the net. You could hear the whales screaming," Munro recalls. "Goldsberry kept dropping explosives to drive the whales back into the net."



When I was little I loved to watch the big whales doing the awesome tricks...I mean, Wow! They must really love to jump and love the swim fast and thought "when I am older I am going to learn to do what I needed to so I could swim with them ---they love to swim with those people"...and year after year, my Mom and I would go to Sea World in San Diego...then there was some years as I became a little older--we started to do Magic Mountain and such--we did not go to Sea World for a good number of years....I then had my beautiful son and I thought--how cool is this, I can do the same thing with my son as my Mom did with me...he will love it.

So, we go and I sit there in the middle of the loud cheering crowd of people...and all I can notice is the size of the whales and the undersized body of water they are in...and then looked at the fact that they don't get to swim off into a larger area when their performance is over...they are in this small area --always, day in and day out---forever...between the crowds moving in and out between shows hustling off to the next show...and here these powerful creatures float---no break for them, but just idle time--idle time to do nothing but waste away....I sat there with my son and I cried quietly to myself behind the dark of my sunglasses....this was the moment, as a Mother---as a being that now loves someone more than I ever could have imagined...a Mother who would without a second of time, would give my life in exchange for my son to live on---and thought, these magnificent creatures will die here. I then was disgusted with myself for ever offering up a penny towards this...I did not get up, I did not share this sadness with my son. For you see, I did not want to force my feelings on him...so he enjoyed the show..as I did, and I am sure many did, he would share with me how he wanted to be a trainer when he got big so he could swim with the whales....

Then a couple of years ago, we discussed when we use to go to Sea World and he smiled and asked if we could go again (mind you, it had been awhile since we had gone)...so I reluctantly agreed...we went and when we got there I assumed he would want to see the Shamu show so I looked at the schedule and began to read off the show times....this beautiful young man says to me...Mom, we can go and look at the fish and other exhibits but can we not go to Shamu? Will it make you sad if we don't go?....I stopped myself from yelling hell yeah we can skip it...and said "sure, we can skip the shamu show, but why ?" He quietly says, "it is sad to see them in the little fish bowls Mom, they must be so sad---it is not right"....enough said.

I have let our last membership expire and I will no longer support this behavior with not even one penny. I know some folks will say that the few are sacrificed for the public to have knowledge and a way to feel a direct interest with a creature we would otherwise never encounter---to this my response is, not everything is ours to own...and some things should be part of a once in a lifetime story---if ever...we have no right to "own" everything....and say it is due to we are the top of the chain....it is our right....we are but only one of the creatures in a long line....just because we can, does not mean we should.

Thank you for this thread....


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## waitmanff (Oct 25, 2013)

Where can you fine it online? Can you watch the full thing ?


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## Tom (Oct 25, 2013)

There is a point that seems to be getting completely missed here. This is not about animals. It's about politics, money and manipulation.

Does anyone doubt that if I had the time, money and inclination, I could make a film to make you "feel" the exact opposite about this issue. I don't have that time or money, or an agenda to push, and I'm not trying to separate people with good intentions from their money so I can use it to force my own ideology on the world through the rule of law, so MY film will never be made.

This is just like any other politicking you see on TV. They want your vote and your financial support. They want to pass more laws restricting what all of us can and can't do. They will lie cheat and steal to get to further their goals. They try to appeal to your emotions to motivate you into action and get you to open your pocketbook so they can make MORE films like this. Not too far down the road, you will start seeing films like this about exotic pets, and how horrible they have it, and why we should all be banned from having them.

The noose it tightening. Lets not help them.


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## CLMoss (Oct 25, 2013)

No Tom...I think that you are missing the point. It IS about the animal. Don't you have any empathy for these magnificent creatures? I have been to Sea World and I have seen these shows. Yes, it was a thrill; however, it is a thrill that I can live without, knowing how these animals suffer in captivity. I have also seen a Beluga whale here in Coney Island... swimming in circles in a human size pool...how depressing. I will never go to or support this type of treatment to any profit driven enterprise that treats captive animals this way. These animals belong in the ocean. Sea World can not provide the ocean... As a society we need to evolve, it has nothing to do with politics. You can put any spin on this that you want. Enough said...


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## ben32hayt (Oct 25, 2013)

I watch a little but up until the sea captain started telling his experience of capturing the baby orcas. I couldn't keep watching it was to sad. I feel so bad for the orcas it's a disgrace what sea world has done.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 25, 2013)

I did not see the film, dont really need to. The free clip says it all. The producers have an agenda, using the whales as much as the seaworld people.

In short open plains/migrating animals do not "work out" in captivity. 

No matter if it is an albatross, pelagic fish, migrating hoofstock, or open water large marine mammals, none of these animals do well in captivity.

But the emoting delivered by shows like this, IMO, is worse than keeping the whale in the tank. They are screwing with you through your heart.

When one human exploits another through their heart, they are bad, their rational argument is weak.

I am pretty sure a leopard gecko does not miss the Pakistani desert, nor a goldfish missing open water. I'm also pretty sure that even the WC pancakes I have, are OK with their current setup.

Some types of animals based on how they make their living are OK in captivity, some are not.

You sure don't need scientists to sort this out, ascott's kid did based on simple direct observation. Its not an all this or that proposition. 

I have worked in a few different animals in captivity industries. Its OK, to have some animals in captivity, not others. 

Large ocean going animals with complex social lives are not OK, in captivity, butterfly fish are OK. The animals communicate this divide just fine.

But hype TV, well, I think those folks need a small free rent room, with narrow vertical windows. Marketing people who run live animal exhibitions, zoos and aquaria, who have never worn fecel smelling shoes, ought to be right next door.

An unprofessional joke among zoo people had been, "the two most dangerous people in a zoo are architects and veterinarians". That was before the "Disney" affect (yes Affect, not Effect) , now both those mindsets have been replaced by the wild animal experience marketers.

If you want to see whales, go on a boat into the ocean, not sit on your bottom and watch them do stupid human tricks. The boat is also less expensive.

Just my five cents worth. Two cents doesn't support an opinion anymore.

Will


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## EricIvins (Oct 25, 2013)

CLMoss said:


> No Tom...I think that you are missing the point. It IS about the animal. Don't you have any empathy for these magnificent creatures? I have been to Sea World and I have seen these shows. Yes, it was a thrill; however, it is a thrill that I can live without, knowing how these animals suffer in captivity. I have also seen a Beluga whale here in Coney Island... swimming in circles in a human size pool...how depressing. I will never go to or support this type of treatment to any profit driven enterprise that treats captive animals this way. These animals belong in the ocean. Sea World can not provide the ocean... As a society we need to evolve, it has nothing to do with politics. You can put any spin on this that you want. Enough said...



If it IS about the animal, I would implore you to return your Tortoises to the wild. After all, both you and I can live without them....Enough said?

Funny thing is, the Pet Trade, Conservation, and AR propaganda are all PROFIT DRIVEN enterprises.....One is no worse than the other....


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## redfootHbadger (Oct 25, 2013)

What about all the animals sea world saves, rehabilitates and send back to the wild?


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## wellington (Oct 25, 2013)

Just a friendly reminder. This is a heated subject. Do not get into name calling or trashing each other. Keep on track and let everyone voice their opinions without being made to feel bad, wrong or any other way.
Thank you.


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## CLMoss (Oct 25, 2013)

Eric.... We are talking about whales.


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## EricIvins (Oct 25, 2013)

CLMoss said:


> Eric.... We are talking about whales.



Whales, Tortoises, Rats, whatever.....A life is a life right? One shouldn't be held in higher regard than the other as far as I know?


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## Yvonne G (Oct 25, 2013)

I just love Will's take on the subject. Thank you, Will.


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## ascott (Oct 25, 2013)

> If it IS about the animal, I would implore you to return your Tortoises to the wild.



Eric, in a hot minute I would love to see the torts here back in their wild land....in a hot minute. I would much rather see the CDTs be allowed to truck around in the desert--much moreso than a captive yard...but as already happened, someone would impose their wants for this tortoise to be theirs and catch and remove them from their desert....leaving them essentially unable to be returned to land they should have...

However, this is about the thread topic...I simply shared here a parallel moment in life between my son and myself in relation to awareness of a situation we both find wrong....

I too believe some creatures conform better to a captive situation than others....Whales are simply one of those that, to me, are a poor creature to be subjected to the "tank" conditions......also, Sea Turtles are a sad bunch to watch swim in a circle .....if/when you are at sea world please take note; there is a big, flashy lavish tank in what use to be the manatee tank (they were quietly shipped to a new tank in Florida to make way for the turtles)it has bright cartoon colors, fun viewing glass shapes placed at just the planned angle so you can get real close up--to feel like you are as close as possible....absolutely a lovely tank---then make your way over to the old tank inside the building next to the circue de something show--go down into the dark building, move to the back of the building and you will come to a tank--filled almost to the rim with the left over sea turtles that did not get picked to be in the new flashy tank---they have bite marks, scrapes and fuzzy stuff on their shells....the tank is a concrete brown finish and that is it....no bright fun cartoon colors, no fun shaped windows....just a dark box tank with a plain wall of viewing window....so of course I need to find someone who knows what this is about , so I meet up with a trainer who advises me that those are the "overflow" turtles....that after their max was met in the new tank and their max was met in the "back" this was the only place to put them....those are bite marks and injuries from circling turtle too many in a small/inadequate space....why would you possibly need so many turtle? Profit is the word that comes to mind...

Tom is correct in that politics and very planned actions are the method in obtaining pulling on the heart strings, because politicians think the general public are idiots at their disposal, a creature to use and exploit for their own benefit and profit....however Tom, this should not be the quick dismissive "reason" for this topic...not to be tossed out with the dish water as just another political topic, this is in itself a grand cover....when the show is over and the people go home the trainers leave...there, they sit in all of their grand captivity... nothing to do, nothing to bond with, nothing to do but wait for the light of day just to be put through the same ole circus tricks....this is not fair....their memory is there, they have memory of what was--it simply is not a fair situation, it is not right.


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## wellington (Oct 25, 2013)

Ascott, your first post gave me chills, your second one, well. So sad they would treat "left over" living things so poorly. I do wonder why they need so many. With the whales, if they had only two, they could give them more space. Run one or two shows a day, and if one happens to not be able to perform, so be it, that show doesn't go on. Better yet, forget the shows and just let people view them acting however it is they would want to act. I'm not against the zoos or aquariums, etc, they do a lot of good too. What I am against is the way they make the animals perform and the over crowding. We don't need to see 5 or 10 turtles or whales. One or two is enough for seeing, enjoying and being educated about.


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## sibi (Oct 25, 2013)

Will, you talk about how media exploits one heart on controversial subjects such as this one; yet, you have just made their arguments for them. Tell me if that didn't come from the heart.


Will said:


> I did not see the film, dont really need to. The free clip says it all. The producers have an agenda, using the whales as much as the seaworld people.
> 
> In short open plains/migrating animals do not "work out" in captivity.
> 
> ...


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## Candy (Oct 25, 2013)

Thanks to those of you that watched the documentary and to those of you who made very positive comments on this very important subject matter. I too loved Angela's sons story and I also loved what Will said. It looks like the showing of this documentary on CNN reached a lot of people and did very well at educating them on orca's in captivity. I started researching this subject after Dawn Brancheau was killed. I get updates everyday from Orca Network and am able to see beautiful pictures and wonderful updates on the orca's in Puget Sound. It is so wonderful to see them in the wild. It's such a different life for them. One day I hope to visit there just like the ex-trainers did in the movie. Here is the website if anyone would like to see for themselves. http://www.orcanetwork.org/Main/ If you weren't able to see the movie it will be for sale in November on Amazon. Here is the link. 
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EL6ACOI/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

I have my copy that I purchased from the UK and am loaning it out to as many people as I can. I love to see peoples reaction AFTER they watch the documentary. Some of them are shocked and others already knew some of it. I'm adding a link that tells how the showing did last night. I think an Oscar is in her future. 


http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2...-conversation-surrounding-cnnfilms-blackfish/

Thank you again and keep passing the word and someday Tilikum and Lolita (at the Miami Sea Aquarium) will once again be free.


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## Candy (Oct 27, 2013)

Sorry this is a day late, but I was out all day yesterday and didn't know they were going to do an encore of Blackfish this weekend. Anyway, for those who didn't have a chance to see it here is the information. It's on the 26th and 27th and it got top ratings. Please let me know what you think.  Don't forget to tape it if you don't have the time tonight. 

Thanks so much for tuning in. Eyes are opening! 

Watch an encore of Blackfish on CNN Saturday, October 26 at 7p ET/6pm JA time. and Sunday, October 27 at 9p ET.

I just found the link to an online viewing if you don't have cable. Here are two links. 

http://www.thegreatplanet.com/blackfish/

http://afdah.com/watch-movies/blackfish-2013/


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## sibi (Oct 29, 2013)

Tom, I get what you're saying, and I totally agree with you about manipulation of people's emotions for a given purpose. Playing politics with the lives of people or animals is something I've abhorred for years. Manipulating people's emotions is extremely effective; but, the proof of most of their allegations concerning these animals were documented and taped. On numerous occasions, SeaWorld had to backtrack and confirm what they previously denied about the death of a trainer. One can manipulate how they use the tapes, but, you can't change the facts that were revealed and that we all know to be true about the tight housing of these whales.

The argument that these colossal animals are forced to live in tight quarters cannot be denied. Even if SeaWorld expanded these quarters and that information was conveniently left out of the documentary, the added space would still be inadequate. As tortoise lovers, we would be outraged if a tortoise lived in such tight quarters that they are unable to stretch out their limbs. Why would we not be equally outraged with the small quarters forced upon these whales?

Politics and manipulation is one thing, but the living conditions of these giants is something totally different. Often facts are manipulated to serve the purposes of those revealing it, but the fundamental fact that these animals live in inhumane conditions cannot be denied. That's been my argument for years now, and until SeaWorld changes how they house these animals, it will continue to be my beef with SeaWorld.

If someone put on a documentary trying to convince people of the opposite position, I would be hard pressed to be convinced that these whales are not better off in the wild and and open oceans. 

It's not the same with other wild animals. Preservation and conservation is a good thing especially for animals that are in danger of extinction. Many of us own captive species and do provide a better life to them than if they lived in the wild. I total agree with you there, but, it's not the same for corporations whose sole interest in capturing these animals is the bottom line. Leaping to the idea that someone may use the same argument for all exotic pet lovers is like comparing apples to oranges. There are just a handful of corporations that invest in Orca whales for entertainment, but there are millions of people who own exotic animals as pets. Logistically, it would be a nightmare to remove pet animals and release them in the wild. Isn't gonna happen...not now, not ever. Therefore, I don't fear that possibility, and never will.


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## DeanS (Nov 9, 2013)

Ironic that Josh would allow such a topic in the new WORLD OF DISNEY tortoise forum. So much controversy! So many lies. But I digress. I've always found Sea World's propaganda deplorable. I saw Tilikum's behavior long before there was a Tilikum! Marineland had an identical bull named Orky! Same fin...same attitude! If I remember correctly, SW purchased him from Marineland...and he died shortly thereafter! These big guys don't belong in captivity...NEVER did! As a former elephant handler, I feel the same about them. No intelligent species should be held in captivity. You lock up a human...does he rehabilitate? Not usually (and I really mean not at all)! Most elephants held in captivity are the product of culling...you don't think they remember what happened to their mothers? Revenge is sweet! Orcas...actually all cetacea...in captivity are frustrated...and claustrophobic! Maybe there's a degree of predation memory triggered...tell me a trainer belly-sliding across a platform is stirring ideas of a seal trapped on an ice flow. None of these trainers were eaten. Their injuries were inflicted by a physically superior animal...nothing more! And take into consideration that most human bones break at 10 lbs/si. I've known several of SW's trainers and they are among the best anywhere. It's never about their incompetence...because they're not! It's ALWAYS about SW's greed and the neccesity to cover-up these incidents! Whatever the filmmaker's intentions are/were...I will only say this. I would NEVER contribute to any of these 501(C)3s...because they always have an ulterior motive...but I do believe all cetacea and elephants need to be out of the hands of zoos, aquariums and circuses!


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## terryo (Nov 9, 2013)

Great post Dean, Angela and Will. Everything I would have liked to say.


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## Team Gomberg (Nov 9, 2013)

I haven't been able to see this documentary in its entirety. I only caught some of the middle. I was able to see A Whale of A Tale on YouTube. The story of Keiko. I hope to finally see Blackfish, too.


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## Candy (Nov 9, 2013)

Keiko, or Free Willy as most of you know him as, was an awesome orca as well. I loved that movie. He was able to finally enjoy freedom.  Here's a background on him if anyone is interested. It lets you know his story. http://keiko.com/history.html

The other night on Nexflix I was able to watch Luna the killer whale that captured the hearts of many people. Luna somehow was separated from her pod but they never found out how. Luna spent five years in Nootka Sound, off the west coast of Vancouver Island. It was beautiful to watch her swim free but still interact with people. You can watch the trailer here if you'd like. http://www.thewhalemovie.com/

I loved watching Luna and how she pulled peoples heartstrings but it was still sad to think of her alone without her family. I was so happy to see her free and not in captivity.


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## thatrebecca (Nov 30, 2013)

I watched Blackfish tonight and came on here cause I knew there would be interesting and thoughtful comments about it.

As a pure piece of journalistic research, I found it a very persuasive argument against keeping orcas in captivity. And certainly against keeping them in the manner they are kept at SeaWorld.

I understand why some people are wary about the film -- oh here come the hysterical, finger-wagging animal rights folks with their propaganda, ready to regulate and take our rights away.

But this isn't a simple, melodramatically edited PETA video.

It's a well researched study of the impact on these animals and the humans who work with them. 

Training orcas to swim in circles all day long is nothing like training dogs to sit and fetch a newspaper.

Ultimately the question the movie poses is one I suspect we all think about often: is what we're doing the best for the animals? 

I know with my tortoises I have asked myself that question often, and with the guidance of folks here on TFO, I have made changes to improve their lives: bigger enclosures, healthier food, more suitable temps, etc.

To dismiss Blackfish without watching it is to miss out on a chance to learn and be moved.

I'd recommend it to anyone.


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## nate.mann (Nov 30, 2013)

some comments here had me upset, but i will refrain from mentioning who to prevent an argument. anyways, very interesting thread. good read.


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## Candy (Dec 6, 2013)

Willie Nelson and Barenaked Ladies cancel performances at Sea World Orlando due to Blackfish. I myself am very happy to see them add their names to this cause.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok0fNLPevUk

http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/permalink/2013/12/05/blackfish


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## Candy (Dec 9, 2013)

Here are some more adding their names to this cause. I couldn't be happier reading this.  The band Heart has now cancelled. 

http://music.yahoo.com/blogs/music-...-ladies-back-seaworld-concerts-154013399.html


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## DeanS (Jun 15, 2015)

How many of you have seen Sea World's *PATHETIC* commercials regarding orcas! Absolutely disgusting! *ALL LIES*!


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## Candy (Jun 15, 2015)

I tried watching one, but they are all lies. I contacted their company to let them know that they should have put the money they spent on them in sea pens to release the orcas into. I also let them know that if this is the best that their new CEO can do they wasted money there also. Just keep on spreading the word and these innocent animals will be released one day. I truly believe that.


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## Team Gomberg (Jun 15, 2015)

Wow Dean. 

But hey, it's on TV. It must be true, right?


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## dmmj (Jun 15, 2015)

Are they fish? 
Saw it on Netflix, nice propoganda


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## Tom (Jun 15, 2015)

Supporting Animal Rightists in any way, shape or form is NOT good for animals or people who keep them.


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## FLINTUS (Jun 15, 2015)

Tom said:


> Supporting Animal Rightists in any way, shape or form is NOT good for animals or people who keep them.


So supporting Sea World with a hell of a lot of money each year is better?
Not that I'm a fan of PETA and the like, but Sea World with all its advertising etc. is basically propaganda as well for its own cause. So two agendas, but ignoring both sides' propaganda, can you really say these animals are better off in captivity?
There is a difference between the proportional size that your Russians in their 'at least an 8X4 ft enclosure' get, and some huge whales, not to mention the difference in intelligence. Their is a huge difference between small reptiles, and large mammals or cetaceans.


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## Candy (Jun 15, 2015)

For anyone looking for truth and information on orcas, this is one of the best sites. They send me updates and pictures everyday of orcas in the wild and how they thrive. In fact, there are a couple of new babies that have been born. They are adorable out there with their mothers. I love reading about all of them and the people who protect them. You can also sign up for their website and get updates and see how they actually live and thrive in the wild. You can also go there and see how many orcas have died in Sea Worlds care. It's the people who speak up that will eventually get these orcas back to the wild where they belong so don't let anyone try to tell you differently. as they have their own agenda and it's not usually for the good of the animal.
https://theorcaproject.wordpress.com/killer-whale-orca-marine-parks/seaworld/


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## Candy (Jun 15, 2015)

https://www.thedodo.com/jurassic-wo...ld-tweets-1202373428.html?utm_source=BfishFB2

The film has already drawn some tongue-in-cheek comparisons to “Blackfish,” the controversial 2013 documentary that reported disturbing allegations about how marine parks treat their animals, not to mention the deaths of trainers. When the “Jurassic World” trailer was released, some immediately pointed out that the set looked suspiciously like a SeaWorld show, as an enormous mosasaurus leaps out of the water and eats a shark dangling from a hook. There’s a splash zone and everything. Turns out, the tonal similarities between the film are no accident.

“Yeah, there’s a bit of a [‘Blackfish’] vibe to this story,” “Jurassic World” director Colin Trevorrow told Slashfilm. He compared the movie’s havoc-wreaking Indominus rex to a creature that grew up in a SeaWorld-type environment. “Our new dinosaur…is kind of out killing for sport because it grew up in captivity,” Trevorrow said. “It’s sort of, like, if the black fish orca got loose and never knew its mother and has been fed from a crane.”

That’s exactly what happens in “Jurassic World,” as the Indominus rex escapes from a life of isolation and proceeds to test its boundaries and food-chain order by killing everything in sight. The idea of captured animals is brought up again and again, particularly by Owen (Chris Pratt), the ex-military dino expert brought in to help train the velociraptors. He is consistently stunned and offended by the arrogance of people like Claire (Bryce Dallas Howard), the park’s operations manager who treats the animals like property created in a lab.


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## terryo (Jun 15, 2015)

I'll never get it Candy. This world is never going to change. People will always suck. Intelligent people condoning this is way beyond my comprehension.


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## Tom (Jun 15, 2015)

FLINTUS said:


> So supporting Sea World with a hell of a lot of money each year is better?
> Not that I'm a fan of PETA and the like, but Sea World with all its advertising etc. is basically propaganda as well for its own cause. So two agendas, but ignoring both sides' propaganda, can you really say these animals are better off in captivity?
> There is a difference between the proportional size that your Russians in their 'at least an 8X4 ft enclosure' get, and some huge whales, not to mention the difference in intelligence. Their is a huge difference between small reptiles, and large mammals or cetaceans.



Anything and everything is better than supporting animal killing, lying, rights destroying terrorists.

Understand that these groups do not want you or anyone else to have pets, they kill more dogs in THEIR shelter than local county shelters, and are defined by the FBI as a terrorist group. They manipulate children and hand out pamphlets with horror movie style depictions to children in an attempt to turn children against their parents for eating fish and chicken.

I am all for animal welfare, housing animals well and offering good captive conditions. I am against assigning the same rights to animals as are extended to human beings. I am against terrorists and liars. I'm against people who attempt to turn innocent children against their parents to further their political agenda. I am against people who want to tell me I can't have a pet tortoise.


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## terryo (Jun 15, 2015)

Just an add-on......This is my personal opinion and I respect most people's opinions, and just ask the same. When you post something like this on this (or any other) forum, sometimes some bashing goes on. Scary!


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## terryo (Jun 15, 2015)

I can't talk about PETA....too many pro's and con's. I guess we just have to keep in mind that there are lunatic's in every organization, and good people too. I would never generalize any organization. Also...there is a BIG difference in keeping Orca's in a little tank that can become dangerous and kill people and keeping a tortoise.. I've never heard of a tortoise that killed anyone in captivity.


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## dmmj (Jun 15, 2015)

A tortoise ate my family. 
documentaries are biased by being one.


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## FLINTUS (Jun 15, 2015)

Tom said:


> Anything and everything is better than supporting animal killing, lying, rights destroying terrorists.
> 
> Understand that these groups do not want you or anyone else to have pets, they kill more dogs in THEIR shelter than local county shelters, and are defined by the FBI as a terrorist group. They manipulate children and hand out pamphlets with horror movie style depictions to children in an attempt to turn children against their parents for eating fish and chicken.
> 
> I am all for animal welfare, housing animals well and offering good captive conditions. I am against assigning the same rights to animals as are extended to human beings. I am against terrorists and liars. I'm against people who attempt to turn innocent children against their parents to further their political agenda. I am against people who want to tell me I can't have a pet tortoise.


Huge generalisation again about conservationists and people who stick up for animal rights. Sure, there are bad groups, we have a very manipulative group against reptiles in the UK called the APA, -and those are generally the ones who get the attention- but there are also plenty of good groups. For instance, I believe you are very good friends with Tomas at the African Chelonia Institute? Is that not a conservation organisation?
Who exactly are you talking about with this 'animal killing'? Most shelters do good work, I know some dog shelters in the States have a bad reputation for putting healthy animals down, but even in the US, that is a small amount. I'm guessing the terrorist group is PETA, correct? Yes, they are not good e.g. ruined the Nazca Lines recently, but I wouldn't take the FBI's terrorist list too literally, there are(and have been) some interesting names on there...
I am vegetarian; is that the product of propaganda? Yes, it probably is, but there is a whole lot more 'eat meat( or fish)' 'propaganda' out there than 'don't eat meat'. If every animal was farmed with a good quality of life, fine, but that doesn't happen here in the EU with a pretty comprehensive legislation list(which puts up food prices), yet alone countries with much worse welfare acts for farm animals. 
We are, as a world, still a hell of a long way off granting human rights to animals-don't worry there, it won't happen anytime soon...
But what you appear to be saying is that anyone who utters the words '_animal rights'_ is a terrorist or liar if they want them to have a standard of living similar to humans? That seems a bit strong to me. There is more evidence that worldwide animal conditions-farming, entertainment etc.- are detrimental for the animals, which leads to the question, who is lying? Sure, PETA are, but what about people who want animals to have space, to have food which doesn't involve them being a cannibal?
Sea World do a lot more to manipulate parents through advertising to children than the animal rights group, in a similar way that McDonalds do actually, to go back to farming. Propaganda is employed much more by the pro-captive supporters than the antis, as they are often referred to...
Finally, nobody here is against pet tortoises in the right conditions, but that is a different case, and while I do believe most enclosures-off forum, of course- are too small, they have a lot more proportional space, while being much less intelligent animals. There is a difference between tortoises and cetaceans, and I feel like you have missed that point in this discussion, and ones we have had on a similar subject before.


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## Tom (Jun 15, 2015)

FLINTUS said:


> Huge generalisation again about conservationists and people who stick up for animal rights. Sure, there are bad groups, we have a very manipulative group against reptiles in the UK called the APA, -and those are generally the ones who get the attention- but there are also plenty of good groups. For instance, I believe you are very good friends with Tomas at the African Chelonia Institute? Is that not a conservation organisation?
> Who exactly are you talking about with this 'animal killing'? Most shelters do good work, I know some dog shelters in the States have a bad reputation for putting healthy animals down, but even in the US, that is a small amount. I'm guessing the terrorist group is PETA, correct? Yes, they are not good e.g. ruined the Nazca Lines recently, but I wouldn't take the FBI's terrorist list too literally, there are(and have been) some interesting names on there...
> I am vegetarian; is that the product of propaganda? Yes, it probably is, but there is a whole lot more 'eat meat( or fish)' 'propaganda' out there than 'don't eat meat'. If every animal was farmed with a good quality of life, fine, but that doesn't happen here in the EU with a pretty comprehensive legislation list(which puts up food prices), yet alone countries with much worse welfare acts for farm animals.
> We are, as a world, still a hell of a long way off granting human rights to animals-don't worry there, it won't happen anytime soon...
> ...



ALL animal rights groups are bad. They purposefully confuse the issue of animal rights and animal welfare. They dupe nice people with good intentions toward animals into giving them money to use for political and nefarious purposes.

The animal rights run shelters have a dismal record for killing animals and refusing adoptions.

I don't know why you wouldn't take the FBIs list seriously. I do.

About Sea World. I know of no other organization in the entire world that has done more to educate people and engender a love of the ocean, and all its creatures. They've done this for generations. They did it with ME! We want to throw this organization under the bus because some people think the pools are too small for the killer whales. Or @terryo , our definition of which animals are allowed in captivity depends on which ones can kill people? That's not how I choose to decide this issue.

How about instead of condemning an entire group that employs thousands of people who love animals and are dedicated to conservation and eduction, we instead try to get them to make the pools bigger and better?

And Tomas? I have no problem conservation. I participate in it myself. Conservation and animal rights are two different things, just as protecting wild animals in the wild and banning peoples CB pets are tow different things.

Did I miss any points?


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## FLINTUS (Jun 15, 2015)

Tom said:


> ALL animal rights groups are bad. They purposefully confuse the issue of animal rights and animal welfare. They dupe nice people with good intentions toward animals into giving them money to use for political and nefarious purposes.
> 
> The animal rights run shelters have a dismal record for killing animals and refusing adoptions.
> 
> ...


The animal rights-conservationist group is a very fine line, but I can simply not accept that ALL animal right groups are bad.
The RSPCA for instance in the UK was set up for the welfare of animals here, and yes they know nothing about tortoises, but it would be very rare to have a healthy animal put down. While I'm sure there are exceptions, I highly doubt that the overall shelter record in The States is 'dismal'.What about private rescue organisations? We have a few for tortoises on this forum...
Not saying I don't take it seriously, but the FBI has had some interesting names on that list.
Maybe so, and they are using money from the entertainment for this, but little research NOW is being done into them by Sea World, the money would be better spent with a number of smaller, specialised organisations that at the end of the day don't have a very large tax bill to pay for their revenue. You yourself specifically discourage people keeping tortoises in small enclosures, is an orca any different?
They might be starting a love for orcas with some little kids-note to self, nice propaganda btw-, but that is for an orca in captivity, which is not where they should be, not at least until as you said the pools are 'better', and much 'better'. And realistically, an adequate enclosure would require a phenomenal amount of space and money.
Again, you're getting hung up on the tortoise point. Tortoises and orcas are not the same, not at all really...


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## meech008 (Jun 15, 2015)

DeanS said:


> How many of you have seen Sea World's *PATHETIC* commercials regarding orcas! Absolutely disgusting! *ALL LIES*!



Oh this hurts my heart. There are so many LIES in this video :-( they don't "collect" whales from the wild: false, Morgan was "rescued" from the wild under the conditions that she be released. Years later she lives at Loro Parque which is connected to Seaworld. 

So many of their whales have dental problems and are on antidepressants. Sad. I'm not saying shut Seaworld down, but the pools ARE too small and the animals do deserve better


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## Tom (Jun 15, 2015)

FLINTUS said:


> The animal rights-conservationist group is a very fine line, but I can simply not accept that ALL animal right groups are bad.
> The RSPCA for instance in the UK was set up for the welfare of animals here, and yes they know nothing about tortoises, but it would be very rare to have a healthy animal put down. While I'm sure there are exceptions, I highly doubt that the overall shelter record in The States is 'dismal'.What about private rescue organisations? We have a few for tortoises on this forum...
> Not saying I don't take it seriously, but the FBI has had some interesting names on that list.
> Maybe so, and they are using money from the entertainment for this, but little research NOW is being done into them by Sea World, the money would be better spent with a number of smaller, specialised organisations that at the end of the day don't have a very large tax bill to pay for their revenue. You yourself specifically discourage people keeping tortoises in small enclosures, is an orca any different?
> ...



I don't find the line between conservation/welfare and "rights" to be fine at all. I find the gap between the two points of view as broad as a continent. Taking good care of animals is one thing. Assigning them rights that make them equal to humans is so so different. Catching, killing and eating a trout or a chicken is NOT murder and never will be, but that is what the animal rights groups advocate. TOTALLY different than encouraging people to take good care of their animals.

Kill ratios are horrendous for the PETA and HSUS shelters. This is not my opinion. This is documented fact. I'm terrible at searching and citing, but it is there if someone wishes to look for it.

There is no difference to me between keeping an Orca in captivity and a tortoise. None. Do I want want it done right in both cases? Yes. Absolutely. To use your example, when someone comes on this forum and their tortoise is in too small of an enclosure, I attempt to educate them and encourage them to go bigger and better. I DON'T want them to be banned from the forum, to lose their job, to be publicly disgraced and accused of all sorts of animal abuse, to be banned from owning tortoises and I certainly don't ignore all the good things this person might contribute to the world. Same with Sea World.


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## Tom (Jun 15, 2015)

FLINTUS said:


> They might be starting a love for orcas with some little kids-note to self, nice propaganda btw-, but that is for an orca in captivity, which is not where they should be...



About this point specifically, you are so wrong. Did you happen to go to Sea World as a child? Did you grow up a couple of hours from there and get to go once or twice a year? No? Then how do you know what effect this has on a child? How do you know how they view what they have seen?

Speaking from personal experience, first hand experience, I did not fall in love with only captive orcas. I fell in love with a species because I got to see them right there in front of me in the flesh. I got to touch them, smell them, feed them, and watch them. Same as any other species. Didn't matter that they were in a cage, pool, enclosure, zoo or at Sea World. As a child I understood how they lived in the wild because Sea World took the time to educate me. I would not have a clue about their plight otherwise. I saw lots of other animals on TV. I've always enjoyed watching nature programs, even as a child. I saw bears, eagles, big cats, wolves... All sorts of cool stuff, but I had no personal connection the any of them. I had no way to look them in the eye and have them look back. As a result, while I liked all those other animals and thought they were cool, I felt they were something far removed and foreign. But not Shamu. I _KNEW _Shamu. Shamu was like a childhood hero to me and millions of other kids. Sea World is directly responsible for making that connection to killer whales and the ocean in general. It formed who I was and who I became. Sea world is the reason I went into Marine Biology. Sea World is the reason I started snorkeling at age 13 and got SCUBA certified at age 18.

For people to attempt to destroy such an amazing, beneficial educator of ignorant far removed children is abhorrent to me. Its despicable. 

Propaganda? I can't understand why you would choose that word. They had animals on display with educational placards and entertaining, but educational shows. What better way to highlight the wonders of the sea? Most kids, like me, were poor and growing up surrounded by concrete. Nature and the wild was a very very foreign place back there. A several generations of Americans would be a heck of a lot more ignorant about life in the sea were it not for Sea World. They are not villains and propagandists. They make a beneficial difference in the lives millions and millions of children.


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## Candy (Jun 16, 2015)

terryo said:


> I'll never get it Candy. This world is never going to change. People will always suck. Intelligent people condoning this is way beyond my comprehension.


That's the thing Terry, I have to question the intelligence of anyone who thinks that putting an orca into captivity is not for pure entertainment. The money they bring in is also a reason. A very selfish reason might I add. That's why Sea World doesn't want to give them up. Sea World is losing big time now and that's exactly what should happen. Tilikum is not doing well. He sits in his small tank day after day not moving a lot of the time. In the wild this is not how they behave. I am doing my part in educating everyone that I come in contact with about the orcas and dolpins that are held in captivity. It is wrong to do this to these animals. I ask people to please watch Blackfish as it is based only on factual evidence. I tell people, if after watching this educational documentary you want to go back to Sea World, then I can't stop you. I haven't had one person come back after watching it that said they would visit Sea World again. They tell me the opposite and they start advocating themselves and that is exactly what I want to see. These animals cannot speak for themselves so it's up to us to lend them our voices and our time. If you have not watched Blackfish please do and get the facts about this cruel industry.


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## terryo (Jun 16, 2015)

. I brought my kids to see the Orca's. I sat there and explained to them why I took them. I wanted them to know how sad it was that people were making so much money while these animals suffered. I'm not an educated person, but I explained to them the best I could why I was against this and asked them to do some research and form their own opinion. I also brought them to our local zoo, which is the worst zoo I have seen to try and educate them on how NOT to keep an animal. They aren't children any more, they are men now, and they do the same with their children. I remember when we left the Staten Island Zoo, we were all crying and no one wanted to go eat lunch. Years later, my kids still talk about the lion that went around, and around in a circle and banged his head against the wall. I recently went back to that zoo and nothing has changed, and apparently nothing has changed at sea world either. I really don't understand when I see kids sitting with their parents laughing and watching while this huge animal goes around and around and no one is telling their kids this is wrong. Everyone has a different opinion, and I respect that, but this is just my thoughts.


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## Candy (Jun 16, 2015)

I think what you did is wonderful Terry. I wish others would do the same. I don't understand zoos. It seems so inhumane to keep an animal behind bars. If this was the only way that I could teach my children about animals I think I would rather not teach them. My oldest son had told me how he went with a friend to the zoo and would never go back. He said that it was so sad seeing all of those animals in cages and that he couldn't understand what kind of education people got from that. He said it depressed him and that he had decided never to go again. I was so happy to hear that and now he helps me as an advocate for the orcas and dolphins. He has been to some of the protests and helps put the information out there to the ones who don't know the facts yet. I am so proud that he's found his humane side. I love men that support animal rights. Thank you Terry for teaching your children humanity.


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## Tom (Jun 16, 2015)

Anyone who advocates for animal rights should not be keeping pets.

What is the term for someone who advocates against something, but then does it themselves anyway?


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## Turtlepete (Jun 16, 2015)

Tom said:


> Anyone who advocates for animal rights should not be keeping pets.
> 
> What is the term for someone who advocates against something, but then does it themselves anyway?



Hypocrite…Ignorant..


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## terryo (Jun 16, 2015)

So much for a civil debate with no name calling. FYI I keep three domestic animals (dogs...all rescues who were mistreated and abused) and Box turtles that cannot be introduced back into the wild. All my box turtles were turned into a rescue and were given to me, except for two Gulf Coasts that were also given to me. After a box turtle is kept for a year they cannot be put back into the wild. These are the only animals I have. My tortoises were re homed to a warm climate so they never have to come in for the Winter again. (poor me....lucky them) I am also a vegen who eats no meat or dairy. I am neither a hypocrite or ignorant. My life is an open book..... I was also into primate rescue at one time. You have no idea of the mistreatment of these intelligent animals.....but that's another story.


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## dmmj (Jun 16, 2015)

Let's keep it civil calling people names does not further discussion.


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## Turtlepete (Jun 16, 2015)

I am not calling anybody in specific names, only naming the mindset of the groups of people Tom is referring to. I was not referring to anyone specific within this thread. To advocate for and side with animal rights groups (who firmly state they believe no animal should "suffer" captivity) whilst keeping any living animal is hypocritical. This is the dictionary definition, not my personal feelings. To believe every institution which showcases animals and turns a profit for it is evil and doesn't have any benefit towards animals is ignorant. This is proven when you consider all of the information (not animal-rights circulated propaganda) and come to a conclusion based on factual evidence. Once more, ignorance would be the dictionary definition of this mind-set.

I have no ill-will towards any of the individuals I am describing. More often than not they are well-meaning, typical people. My only wish is they would broaden their research and not allow emotions to factor into their decisions when they go out to boycott whatever is trending on twitter.


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## leigti (Jun 16, 2015)

I wanted to respond to this thread but I don't know where to start. Even just glancing through it I partly agreed with almost everything said. I think the problem is that this is not a black and white issue, no pun intended :-( there are a whole a lot of areas of gray. I have major issues with many so-called animal rights organizations, and yet I also greatly appreciate those people that can honestly give their own blood sweat and tears to help animals, or constantly try to educate people. 
You would think that I would be describing the same group of people but sadly it often is not that clear cut. If I firmly pick one side or the other I am going to be a hypocrite.


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## Tom (Jun 16, 2015)

leigti said:


> I wanted to respond to this thread but I don't know where to start. Even just glancing through it I partly agreed with almost everything said. I think the problem is that this is not a black and white issue, no pun intended :-( there are a whole a lot of areas of gray. I have major issues with many so-called animal rights organizations, and yet I also greatly appreciate those people that can honestly give their own blood sweat and tears to help animals, or constantly try to educate people.
> You would think that I would be describing the same group of people but sadly it often is not that clear cut. If I firmly pick one side or the other I am going to be a hypocrite.



Wrong. Picking a side does not make you a hypocrite, as long as you are not doing what you are advocating against. Advocating against animals in captivity while KEEPING your own animals in captivity is hypocritical. 

You, like most people, certainly like everyone who is a member on this forum, want animals to be treated well, respected, cared for properly, and given humane care and treatment in every way. We ALL agree on this and this makes us ALL advocates of ANIMAL WELFARE.

ANIMAL RIGHTS is something completely different than this. Not even remotely related. Opposite end of the spectrum. Animal rightists believe that animals are better off dead than in human hands. They believe meat, ANY meat, is MURDER and should be a crime. They think dog trainers and animal trainers (Me) are evil and should be shut down by any means possible legal, ethical, or NOT.

There is a quiet war going on right now. Its been going on for years. Most people are not even aware of it. People like me are busy earning a living, enjoying my time with friends, family, my animals, and generally trying to have a good quality of life. I have little or no time to fight a war and go after the people trying to destroy me and my profession and my hobbies and get my animals banned and taken away from me. My opponents on the other hand, have made a profession of slandering me, anyone like me, and Sea World. Its their job to come in every day and figure out new and creative ways to make us look bad in the public eye, turn the public against us and get horrible freedom destroying laws passed. They don't care what means they have to stoop to to do it. Even if they have to torture and harass animals to do it. The end justifies the means in their mind. Do an internet search about PETA throwing M-80s at the circus elephants so they could film the aftermath of the trainers trying to calm the herd after the giant explosion goes off.

They make horrible heart-wrenching commercials and pamphlets to get good, kind, honest people with nothing but good intentions to give them money to "help the animals". Instead their shelters kill more animals than the government run shelters. Instead they BMWs, Mercedes, and multi-million dollar mansions and laugh at how stupid the people who gave them the money are. Not joking here and not making it up. The general public has good intentions, but they have been largely duped by the animal rights media machine. Sea World and people like me spend our time tending to the animals. Animal rights groups spend their time and money making films like the one in this thread while I'm bust trying to have a life. Ruining my life, and yours, is their life's work.

By the time people realize what is really going on, it will be too late. Spread the word. Support animal welfare, NOT animal rights.


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## meech008 (Jun 16, 2015)

Tom said:


> Wrong. Picking a side does not make you a hypocrite, as long as you are not doing what you are advocating against. Advocating against animals in captivity while KEEPING your own animals in captivity is hypocritical.
> 
> You, like most people, certainly like everyone who is a member on this forum, want animals to be treated well, respected, cared for properly, and given humane care and treatment in every way. We ALL agree on this and this makes us ALL advocates of ANIMAL WELFARE.
> 
> ANIMAL RIGHTS is something completely different than this. Not even remotely related. Opposite end of the spectrum. Animal rightists believe that animals are better off dead than in human hands. They believe meat, ANY meat, is MURDER and should be a crime. They think dog trainers and animal trainers (Me) are evil and should be shut down by any means possible legal, ethical, or NOT.



I'm truly not trying to be funny or someone who goes back on what they said because someone else disagreed with it, but thank you for clarifying that. It's definitely cleared up some things for me and I see a lot more research in my future. Thank you!


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## leigti (Jun 16, 2015)

I guess that animal rights and animal welfare are two different things. The second part of my post was about animal welfare but I wasn't using that term. Maybe other people make my same mistake and use the terms interchangeably. My friends who use guide dogs, and I will soon be one of those guide dog handlers, have been harassed and had their dogs harassed for just doing their jobs. Even for just sitting at a coffee shop quietly. I hate PETA and everything they stand for and always have, I always felt they were an extremist group and people didn't realize it. And yet I also wish that sea world would stop breeding killer whales and make a better habitats for the ones they do have. I think sea world has done and continues to do some very good things as well. I personally do not want to see world to go away just like I don't want zoos to go away but I think they can do better as far as caring for their own animals. Especially the very large ones. I think no kill shelters for the most part are propaganda machines. I did not make friends at the local shelter when I politely told them that when they changed over. But I pay them my money for a dog license every year and I didn't hesitate to call when the dog next door was being neglected. Hypocrite? Maybe. So there's the gray area. 
I watched blackfish, I'm not going to watch it again.


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## terryo (Jun 16, 2015)

Tom, where do you get these things from? I am all for animal rights. I've been involved and been a bit of an activist in my much younger days, but I have never felt or thought the things you have posted and no one I worked with thought that. 
* They think dog trainers and animal trainers (Me) are evil and should be shut down by any means possible legal, ethical, or NOT.*
My God! I don't think anything like that at all. No one that I ever worked with in any kind of rescue thought things like that. Who are you talking about? If you're talking about PETA, then yes they have an agenda that isn't acceptable at times. But not every one who is for animal rights feels that way.
*. Animal rightists believe that animals are better off dead than in human hands.*
I don't know anyone that thinks that either. Do you think people who are fighting to save the orca's think they are better off dead? You sound so angry and upset that I really feel bad now. 
I think that every animal on this earth deserves some rights. Do you not think that the primates that are locked up in cages and are made to feel pain every day of their lives don't deserve some rights? Have you ever been to any of these facilities and seen first hand how they are treated? I have. I have seen things that I can't even talk about. But NEVER have I worked with or knew anyone who felt that these animals were better off dead. I know people who have suffered and lost everything to save them and give them a better life. 
I'm sad that you feel so angry about this, but you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that, and you should respect other people's opinions even if they don't agree with yours. 
Some people, like myself, keep animals that should be in the wild, (box turtles) because there is no other alternative for them. So we try to mimic their natural environment as best we can, but we are not hypocritical.....or ignorant Some people are vegans because they feel it is a more healthy way to live.
* Animal rightists believe that animals are better off dead than in human hands. They believe meat, ANY meat, is MURDER and should be a crime.*
I am for animal rights and I don't feel this way at all, and neither do any of my friends and family who are vegans. You should not generalize statements like this because all people who want rights for animals don't feel this way. I certainly don't. .


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## leigti (Jun 16, 2015)

Not speaking for Tom but I think he is making a distinction between animal-rights an animal welfare. To me you sound like you are for animal welfare.


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## FLINTUS (Jun 16, 2015)

Tom said:


> Wrong. Picking a side does not make you a hypocrite, as long as you are not doing what you are advocating against. Advocating against animals in captivity while KEEPING your own animals in captivity is hypocritical.
> 
> You, like most people, certainly like everyone who is a member on this forum, want animals to be treated well, respected, cared for properly, and given humane care and treatment in every way. We ALL agree on this and this makes us ALL advocates of ANIMAL WELFARE.
> 
> ...


As @terryo said, you seem to be getting rather defensive over this. I have no problem with dog-training, although I am still against non-domesticated 'show' mammals, although luckily Europe experimented with that long enough ago to realise what problems can result of this.
I feel like you are still missing the point; not all animal rights activists are like the above. I don't agree with PETA, but to quote a dictionary definition, animal rights is defined as:
_The rights of animals to live free from human exploitation and abuse._
That is not what you are describing above. There are many animal rights groups who are free of corruption, free of terrorism etc.
Furthermore, you seem to have assumed that all of us who are anti Sea World are pro-animal rights. I would personally see myself in the animal welfare category, if you wish to distinguish the differences that way. 
I'm sorry that you feel threatened by these so called 'murderers', but realistically, I too am not for exploitation for profit of non-domesticated animals. And tbh, training animals for films is exactly that. You do it because you enjoy it, but you also do it, like most people, because it pays well. Sure you might get a couple of kids interested in some strange creature, but at the end of the day, that is not why the film, or Sea World for that matter, was created. 
PETA have committed some horrible crimes against animal welfare; so have Sea World and other 'training-related' organisations for show. Your point? 
Sea World again makes those pamphlets to 'manipulate' young children, no different from PETA, but the difference is that many animal rights organisations do not do that. I do however, strongly dislike the distribution of money in PETA.
At the end of the day Tom, most countries that have had large, wild animals in captivity have seen where the problems lie and banned it, not causing too many problems for the rest of us. Civilisation evolves with experience, but in N.America, probably due to the lack of a colonial presence for the most part, these non-domesticated animals are a relatively new thing in history. Eventually, when these accidents continue to happen, something will need to be done...


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## keepergale (Jun 17, 2015)

FLINTUS said:


> As @terryo said, you seem to be getting rather defensive over this. I have no problem with dog-training, although I am still against non-domesticated 'show' mammals, although luckily Europe experimented with that long enough ago to realise what problems can result of this.
> I feel like you are still missing the point; not all animal rights activists are like the above. I don't agree with PETA, but to quote a dictionary definition, animal rights is defined as:
> _The rights of animals to live free from human exploitation and abuse._
> That is not what you are describing above. There are many animal rights groups who are free of corruption, free of terrorism etc.
> ...



Oh geeez That xpans it all. We jus to unevolvd to no de write ting 2 do here in de colonies.


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## Tom (Jun 17, 2015)

FLINTUS said:


> As @terryo said, you seem to be getting rather defensive over this. I have no problem with dog-training, although I am still against non-domesticated 'show' mammals, although luckily Europe experimented with that long enough ago to realise what problems can result of this.
> I feel like you are still missing the point; not all animal rights activists are like the above. I don't agree with PETA, but to quote a dictionary definition, animal rights is defined as:
> _The rights of animals to live free from human exploitation and abuse._
> That is not what you are describing above. There are many animal rights groups who are free of corruption, free of terrorism etc.
> ...




Defensive? Well when one is under attack, isn't defense what is supposed to happen? I don't think you understand. There is an entire segment of society who have made it their daily job, their passion, their life's work to end my career, my passion and my life's work. While I am busy going about my life's work, these people are busy trying to shut it all down. Its not even a fair fight since the attack while I'm busy trying to earn a living. People like you, people with good intentions toward animals, are HELPING them do it because they don't understand what is really going on and what the real end game is.

Some Europeans clearly have different ideas about what the role of government is and ought to be compared to the ideas of most Americans. That is the reason we had a horrible bloody revolution. To get out from under this sort of "Big Brother knows best" sort of attitude. If you like being told what to do at every turn, then you are in the right place. Personally, I prefer to make my own decisions, rather than have my government make them for me.

As far as the value of live animals for educational purposes, we could argue that all day. You don't seem to see much value in it the way you imagine it, but I'm telling you that as one of those children exposed to this, the positive impact is profound. I didn't read about it. I don't imagine what I think it is like and what the effects are. I LIVED it.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but it is worth discussing where these opinions come from and what they are based on. What do you base all your assertions on? News stories? Things you read or saw on TV? Things the media and government want you to see? Or do you have any first hand personal experiences with these sort of animals? You demonstrate a strong emotional reaction to this subject so surely you know first hand about what goes on with these professional animal trainers and what goes wrong with these "incidents" you speak of. Tell me, what is the source of your opinions and feelings on this matter?

I will tell you where my opinions and info come from: It has been my paid profession to raise, train and care for all manner of exotic animals since 1986. Birds, fish, reptiles, mammals, insects, amphibians... Am I leaving any out? I know hundreds of other people who do the same thing including some of the trainers that work at Sea World and really know what goes on there. Every single day hundreds or thousands of these captive animals are handled, trained and worked with and there is no incident. No disaster to sensationalize and put on the news. Are there disasters from time to time? Yes. How could there not be. Every once in a while a mother decides to kill her own children. A man in China went crazy and stabbed a whole bunch of people. Thousands of innocent children drown in 5 gallon buckets every year. So do we ban parenthood, kitchen knives and 5 gallon buckets? No. No we do not. Every profession has accidents, bad apples, and the odd incompetent person. Mine is no different. when the crane operator makes and error, someone dies. Do we want to ban cranes and put crane operators out of work? Cops have negligent discharges of their firearms regularly. Sometimes resulting in death or injury. Should we fire all the cops and take away their weapons?

These ultra-sensationalized incidents that hit the news are NOT the norm. Every single day, I and my peers handle and interact with these animal and nothing bad happens. but since it doesn't serve their purposes nobody publicizes all the things that DIDN'T and DON'T happen. Think about it...

So let me ask you now, who has a better perspective what really happens on a day to day basis with these kind of animals in captivity?


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## terryo (Jun 17, 2015)

_The rights of animals to live free from human exploitation and abuse._
_
That totally says it all for me. Thank you! I don't think I have anything more to say on this subject._


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## Tom (Jun 17, 2015)

Here is what I was doing two days ago. Working on a TV show in Louisiana. I'm here with my dogs and some of my friends are here with a couple of leopards and a serval. These guys have been handling lions, tigers, bears, elephants, etc... for more than 20 years. You have never heard their names or seen them on the news. In these pics we took the leopards out for a walk on our day off. This is on private property near where we were filming. Know why you didn't see or hear anything about this walk with the leopards? Because nothing newsworthy happened. Just like nothing newsworthy has ever happened in any of our 20+ year careers. No one was attacked. No animals were abused. One of the leopards is 18 years old and nearing retirement. If you've seen a spotted leopard on camera in the last 17 years or so, its probably been this one. All of our animals go this way. They live their whole lives with us, doing gig after gig with no incident...







A little tree climbing fun. This was a beautiful sight to see. Things like this are what make our job "worth it".





Here is the cats owner horribly abusing and torturing the kitty. 4 years old and still acting like a kitten...






You see a problem here? You want to end this? You want to take our animals away and end our life long dreams and careers?

Hell yes, I'm defensive.


Am I a villain? Am I an animal abuser? Am I an animal exploiter?
If you answered yes, to any of these, then we have a philosophical difference of opinion about life in general that will NOT be resolved. If you answered yes to any of these questions, then you are my enemy and I will fight you to the death to protect what I hold near and dear.


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## FLINTUS (Jun 17, 2015)

keepergale said:


> Oh geeez That xpans it all. We jus to unevolvd to no de write ting 2 do here in de colonies.


My post wasn't meant that way at all-more along the lines of rules and regulations generally appear after countries have experienced them, and the US(or Canada, or Mexico, or China for that matter), hasn't had these animals come into the country long enough to see the full effects. And yes, to counter Tom's inevitable reply, I do recognise that animal welfare has evolved in that time, but it is a general theme over history that those who experience it longer are the first to do something about it.


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## FLINTUS (Jun 17, 2015)

I'm not going to bother responding to the individual points now as you are in denial, but I will make this clear: I am not attacking you specifically, but I just do not agree with non-domesticated animals being exploited. Of course, if an ideal habitat could be created for orcas at Sea World that would be great, but it is almost impossible. There is much more scientific evidence citing that orcas(and lions for that matter worldwide), are generally worse off in captive environments. 
I appreciate the bad incidents are not the norm, however they do happen, and at the very least, more space would improve this. However, I do think that you have had your thoughts slightly clouded by your (passionate) beliefs on this topic. Read over what you have written and you too will find that it is not particularly comprehensible for one to understand the actual points you are trying to convey, rather than a plethora of unrelated references-and for the record, police carrying guns is not something I'm a fan of either...


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## leigti (Jun 17, 2015)

terryo said:


> _The rights of animals to live free from human exploitation and abuse._
> _
> That totally says it all for me. Thank you! I don't think I have anything more to say on this subject._


The problem with that definition is that people have their own definitions of what exploitation and abuse is. And you or me or anybody else can have a view totally different on what the definitions are. And trying to compare how different countries deal with it is too big to even discuss here.It seems like people on this thread are trying too hard to say how they are on one side or another, and then insulting the other side. If we can all agree that we love animals and care about how they are treated by humans then I think we have some common ground.


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## Tom (Jun 17, 2015)

leigti said:


> If we can all agree that we love animals and care about how they are treated by humans then I think we have some common ground.



That is just it. We HAVE that common ground and we ALL agree that animals should be treated well. Everyone on this thread and on this whole forums an advocate of ANIMAL WELFARE. The problem is ignorance. People don't know what the ANIMAL RIGHTS movement is all about and what they really stand for. The majority of people who side with these radicals and donate the money that allows them to accomplish their nefarious goals do so out of ignorance. They've been duped. These poor people are trying to help animals and they want animals to be treated well and cared for. Animal Rights groups don't want animals cared for at all. They opine that animals are better off dead than in human care at all. They show pictures of adorable puppies and kittens in cages with sad music and people send them money. Doesn't everyone want to help the puppies and kittens? Again. Look at the facts. Kill ratios in Animals Rights group funded shelters are far higher than other shelters. They want them dead, not in homes where people will "enslave" them. That is why they kill them instead of adopting them out.


It is my intention in typing all this to demonstrate these facts. If you love animals and want them treated well, then the animal rights movement is not for you. If you want shelter animals to go to loving homes, then the animal rights movement is not for you. If you want people to learn about and take good care of their pet tortoises, then the animal rights movement is not for you. All of the above tenants are tenants of ANIMAL WELFARE. If animals have the same rights as humans then they can not be eaten, sold, owned, caged, enclosed, trained, etc... 

I assert that animals should be well cared for, respected, handled and housed appropriately. I strongly disagree that every ant and cockroach should have the same rights as me and everyone reading this.

If nothing else is accomplished here, I want people to know the difference between human rights and taking good care of animals. We can argue forever about what is the most "appropriate" way to house killer whales, dogs or tortoises. I doubt two people will ever 100% agree on all of that, but can we agree that the fly bothering you at your dinner table, or the chicken on your dinner table does not have the same rights as my child?


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## Tom (Jun 17, 2015)

FLINTUS said:


> I'm not going to bother responding to the individual points now as you are in denial, but I will make this clear: I am not attacking you specifically, but I just do not agree with non-domesticated animals being exploited. Of course, if an ideal habitat could be created for orcas at Sea World that would be great, but it is almost impossible. There is much more scientific evidence citing that orcas(and lions for that matter worldwide), are generally worse off in captive environments.
> I appreciate the bad incidents are not the norm, however they do happen, and at the very least, more space would improve this. However, I do think that you have had your thoughts slightly clouded by your (passionate) beliefs on this topic. Read over what you have written and you too will find that it is not particularly comprehensible for one to understand the actual points you are trying to convey, rather than a plethora of unrelated references-and for the record, police carrying guns is not something I'm a fan of either...



I am in denial? I base my emotions and opinions on decades of first hand experience with the subject matter, while you base yours on media reports of incidents and reading animal rights propaganda, and you think I am the one in denial? I beg to differ.

I still don't know what constitutes exploitation in your mind. Is that leopard in my pictures being exploited? Are our tortoises being exploited? Is the person who made money by selling you your tortoise guilty of animal exploitation? Is it money changing hands that upsets you? If I hunt game with raptors, an endeavor that can in no way involve money changing hands, is that exploitation?

Citations? I have no doubt that researchers on both sides of this issue can find hundreds of citations to support their views. I _LIVE _ this life daily and have for decades. What experience do you have with captive lions other than what an animal rights group told you? Have you seen how lions are housed by the people I know? Do you have any idea what kind of life they have?

How on earth would more space prevent an incompetent person from having an "incident" with an animal? You think that a happy killer whale in a giant pool wouldn't toy with its human trainers? You are wrong. You think a lion in a 50,000 hectare enclosure wouldn't eat the first person it came across? Wrong again. I saw the bloody evidence in South Africa. The lion enclosure was so huge that you could not see the fence on the other side because of the curvature of the earth. You are sounding like someone who wants whats good for animals, but doesn't really know about what is good for animals. Can you tell me I'm wrong and that you have some first hand experience handling lions, or maybe working behinds the scenes at a facility that houses big cats of any kind?

Not germain to this discussion, but I am curious... What would you have police officers carry when they are going to possibly have to confront armed criminals who want to kill them and/or other people?


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## Tom (Jun 17, 2015)

terryo said:


> _The rights of animals to live free from human exploitation and abuse.
> 
> That totally says it all for me. Thank you! I don't think I have anything more to say on this subject._




What is exploitation in your mind Terry? Is eating a chicken exploitation? Is enjoying a pet exploitation? Does this depend on whether or not money changed hands? Is a tortoise rescuer not an exploiter, but a tortoise purchaser is an exploiter, even though both love and care for their tortoises incredibly well?

And abuse? I once thought this was so simple to define and understand, but I've been proven wrong by the assertion of other members of our society. Animal rights groups believe that simply confining a dog on my premises constitutes slavery and abuse. Cookie trainers (dog trainers who rely only on positive reinforcement and nothing else, ever...) accuse me of abuse for using a correction collar to literally save the life of the monsters they create with their well intentioned ignorance. Am I an abuser for jerking the crud out of an aggressive dog with a choke chain in order to save it from the euthanasia needle? Tell me Terry, would that dog be better off dead than receiving some stern corrections from an experienced dog trainer?

You know that I love you. This is not an attack. This is a conversation between two friends that have differing opinions on a subject near and dear to our hearts. I want to understand where your lines are drawn and I want _you_ to understand where your lines are drawn and who you are standing with, and who you are standing against.


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## Turtlepete (Jun 17, 2015)

@FLINTUS,
Quick question. To have such a detailed and passionate opinion, surely you must have some real experience in the topic at hand, am I right? How many years did you work in a zoo? Did you train exotics for the film industry, perhaps? How about orcas, have you ever visited SeaWorld? Worked as a marine biologist? Ever owned a lion, tiger, leopard, or any big exotic? Your house-cat doesn't count. 
Or is your entire opinion solely based off of a biased documentary, google-yielded search results and a strong attribution of human emotions to the poor orcas which are several thousand miles away from you?
If the aforementioned case is applicable to your "opinion", there may be an issue.


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## leigti (Jun 17, 2015)

Well, if I follow Tom's definition then I am definitely on the animal welfare side of things. I do think that the word "rights" is applicable to humans but not to animals. And we humans can't even agree on the rights that fellow human beings have. That does not mean that humans are above or better than animals in my opinion. 
I think people are easily manipulated by media nowadays. It is so much a part of our lives that many of us have lost the ability to look critically at something or to dig deeper than just the surface. Any advertising is a form of propaganda, no matter how transparent and organization tries to be they are still twine to sway your opinion towards them. That doesn't necessarily make it bad however. Before giving money or supporting an organization I think people should look into it a little more. 
I also feel that personal experience is very important and how a person forms their ideas and opinions. It is not fair to be criticized for an opinion based on knowledge and first-hand experience.


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## terryo (Jun 17, 2015)

OK....my stand is very simple Tom. It may seem contradictory to you. I have been to Sea World, and have left in tears with my children. I wanted them to see what I saw, but let them do research and decide for themselves how they felt about it. I hate seeing those animals in such a small tank, when they should be free in the ocean. I don't stand on any side. That is just my opinion.
Years ago I worked with primate rescue, and seeing infant primates taken from their mothers when they were only hours old, to be sold was horrible. The hallway was lined with incubators with two day old infants where I was. The females were kept in sound proof rooms where they screamed for hours when their babies were taken from them. Heartbreaking. I am totally against selling primates for profit because of this. Some of these babies were bought my couples that couldn't have children. They came with baby clothes, diapers, bottles, just like they were adopting a new born human child. This was sick to me. Just my opinion.....
When I was a child my Dad would take me to the circus (the man was way before his time) to show me the Elephants, chained to large tree like poles, and then made to perform. He taught me that this was the cruelest form of abuse in his opinion. So, I'm against Circus's for this reason.
I'm on the fence about Zoo's because I've been to some horrible one's, where the large cats were in small enclosures and circled for hours and banged their heads on the wall. I've been to the Bronx zoo where the animals were in good condition and had plenty of roaming space. So, I'm not against all zoo's.
I can't even think about meat slaughter houses without throwing up. I'm glad I don't eat meat for this reason.
The animal shelter where I live is NO KILL and is clean and they have volunteers who come and walk the dogs and they have big runs to play and get exercise. Not so bad.
I am a vegen because my health was suffering and my son made me try changing my diet. It worked, and I'm doing good today because of it. That is the reason I don't eat meat or dairy.
So, I really don't know what category you would put me in Tom. I have fought for animal rights for many years. So, am I for animal rights, or animal welfare? I believe that every living thing deserves respect.....animals and humans. I fought many years for primates in testing facilities, and breeding farms. Is that animal rights or animal welfare? I don't know......
As for you Tom, and what you do for a living......I never really thought about it in a bad way. Maybe because I respect you so much, and know your animals are well taken care of. I truly don't believe I am a hypocrite. * I don't believe that any animal is better off dead.* I have turtles now that I'm taking care of that were treated so poorly that my vet said they might not make it, but I'm not giving up on them.
I don't know how to train dogs.....I still can't train my three little rescues....so you would know better than me about whether to train using a cookie or a choke chain. I would never criticize you on how you train your animals. So, I guess that's where I stand. I think we've been through this before Tom, you and I.
I have no idea what category you would put me in. Those are just some of the things I believe in.


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## FLINTUS (Jun 17, 2015)

Ok, probably my last post on the subject:
I do have little first-hand experience compared to Tom, although do know many people who have that experience. And yes, the media can easily manipulate people's views; I am not a supporter of PETA, but I do believe that @Tom needs to recognise that Sea World and other zoos do the same 'horrible manipulation' of a young child to get them to support a cause/give money.
However, as above, I do think that there is a distinction to be made in the terms we are using here. I would not regard myself specifically as an animal rightist(never have in this thread), and like you I do support animal welfare-although where that line falls is questionable. So under your (too generic for me) definitions, I am not meant to be in support of a 'propaganda film'. However, you said yourself that you've not actually watched Blackfish? It is factually pretty correct-moreso than most of these 'propaganda films', and while there is the usual emotive pictures, it does provide an accurate portrayal for one-side of the argument. Therefore, it supports my views that orcas should not be kept in captivity, unless there is a huge change to the conditions. Is that, under your definition of killing animals, animal rights? I do still believe that there are good organisations who support animal rights, and I can link some organisations if you wish? That said, your definition is not what the actual definition is, rather than how PETA in particular has taken it on, and I think it is worth recognising that. 
Something else that I wished to add to the earlier post about experience vs regulations but couldn't edit it: I would be very surprised if the US was so lenient on cetaceans in captivity by 2050.


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## dmmj (Jun 17, 2015)

I guess I am proud to live in a country where I can choose to go to sea world, or choose not to go.


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## terryo (Jun 18, 2015)

Yup! That's the best way to look at it, David. I agree.


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