# Garlic, avocado, etc.?



## Madkins007

Let's take it as a given that feeding on a variety of plants outside is better than most of what we can offer indoors, especially in the cold states in the winter.

That said, many people I respect recommend tossing in small amounts of 'non-traditional' foods in the winter for most species to try to help provide variety, interest, and micronutrients. Make sense to me as long as you are prudent.

So- what about garlic and avocado? You almost never see them on food lists, but when you look at the benefits of these foods, I find myself wondering about them. I cannot find any research pro or con, and I would not be talking about large amounts- just a little once in a while when we are using them for other meals.

Thoughts, links, etc.?


----------



## Laura

avocado is toxic for birds.. 
garlic.. ? isnt really a food.. they say it gets rid of parasites in dogs.. but not really sure it does that either.. 
I personally would not feed it..


----------



## Tom

I believe its the avocado PITS that are toxic. The fruit is supposedly not too healthy because its is kind of fatty. My torts have eaten small amounts of both with no apparent ill effect.

BTW, I like to feed them all sorts of novel stuff all year long. I scavenge and scrounge from all over the place.


----------



## wildponey21

I have redfoots and they love avocado fruit. I have read that garlic is bad for trots and should not be given. But we all know how that works two say yes you can give but 3 other say no it bad for them. I would just call a reptile vet and ask them. As for the person that said that garlic gets rid of parasites in dogs. That is wrong asa a vet tech it can kill your dog along with many other thigs.


----------



## Tom

...everything in moderation.

Too much of anything can kill you.


----------



## Madkins007

As for the avocado fat, it is a monosaturated fat and not quite as bad as some other kinds of fats. Animals need some fat in the diet, although we need to avoid EXCESS, as Tom and others have pointed out.

As for garlic not really being a food, I am not sure what you mean by that. It is a very useful food for humans. It is related to onions, shallots, leeks, and chives. 

Thanks, Tom. I knew they did not show up on any dangerous food lists I could find. They offer so many benefits that are hard to find in the typical grocery store greens that I was hoping I could add small amounts once in a while safely.


----------



## Yvonne G

These quotes are talking about birds:

"While the use of limited amounts of onion or garlic powders as flavorings is generally regarded as acceptable, excessive consumption of onions causes vomiting, diarrhea, and a host of other digestive problems. It has been found that prolonged exposure can lead to a blood condition called hemolytic anemia, which is followed by respiratory distress and eventual death."

"Avocado - The skin and pit of this popular fruit had been known to cause cardiac distress and eventual heart failure in pet bird species. Although there is some debate to the degree of toxicity of avocados, it is generally advised to adopt a "better safe than sorry" attitude toward them and keep guacomole and other avocado products as far away from pet birds as possible.


----------



## Madkins007

Thanks, Yvonne! If possible, can you shoot me the source of that? Bird stuff is often very applicable to reptile stuff.

My original thought was to use a very limited amount of garlic. After all, it does have a strong taste and tortoises often avoid that sort of thing. On the other hand, they seem to enjoy a little onion now and then! 

Avocados... Hmmm. One big difference between birds and turtles is that birds are really vulnerable to a huge range of toxins, and turtles are rather hard to poison. I'll have to look at the risks/benefits some more.

Thanks!


----------



## Candy

As for feeding Avocados to tortoises ask Douglas Beard (Elegans). When I was speaking to him on the phone and told him that there were some members on here that said the avocado fruit was toxic to the tortoises he laughed. He said that his ate it quite a bit and always has, even the leaves of the trees. Douglas knows quite a bit about plants and trees and what is toxic to tortoises. I have a giant tree in my backyard and was worried about Dale eating the leaves, but so far so good. Douglas knows quite a bit about plants and trees and what is toxic to tortoises. 

As for the dogs they can have garlic. It is great for killing bacteria, fungus, and parasites, as well as providing immune support and normalizing fats in the system. It is also speculated to help repel fleas. However, do no use garlic for toy breeds of dogs or cats. It is speculated that garlic (and onions) can cause anemia in toy breeds (dogs weighing less than twenty pounds) and cats. Garlic contains many of the nutrients dogs need including sulfur, potassium, phosphorus, vitamins B and C, allicin, ajoene, amino acids, germanium, and selenium. Use fresh or oil not dried as it is far less effective.  Do be careful with the amounts of garlic given though. If anyone's interested in how much per dog weight just ask and I'll post it.


----------



## cdmay

I noticed this thread rather late so I am behind in commenting about the avocados. But like others have said, tortoises love avocados and I have never heard of any sort of problems associated with feeding them. However, I have read that avocados have a bad calcium to phosphorus ratio which means that if fed in large amounts and often enough, a tortoise's calcium uptake might get inhibited. 
Avocados ARE high in fats too but in moderation this can be a good thing, especially for breeding females who could use the extra lipids during egg production.


----------



## tortoisenerd

Meg's (Meg90) tortoise got very ill from avocado apparently. I would NEVER feed either avocado or garlic--why take that sort of risk? Its nothing like they'd get in the wild, and has no benefit I see. Avocado is much higher in fat and calories than typical tort foods. I wouldn't even consider garlic a food...kinda like giving a tort herbs or onion or something.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-avocado-for-greeks


----------



## cdmay

tortoisenerd said:


> Meg's (Meg90) tortoise got very ill from avocado apparently. I would NEVER feed either avocado or garlic--why take that sort of risk? Its nothing like they'd get in the wild, and has no benefit I see. Avocado is much higher in fat and calories than typical tort foods. I wouldn't even consider garlic a food...kinda like giving a tort herbs or onion or something.
> 
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-avocado-for-greeks





Well, I can't argue with your line of reasoning and I agree that it is always better to be safe than sorry.
But then again, in moderation I think even a high fat food like an avocado can be beneficial. Plus avocados are known as one of those 'super foods' that contain a lot of good things besides fats or oils. If they are dangerous I think I would have known by now as I have been feeding them to tortoises (let me stress once more--in moderation) for almost 40 years.


----------



## Edna

I wouldn't ever feed my torts garlic because metabolized garlic would be smelly in their poos.... Wait, I guess I wouldn't even notice that, would I?


----------



## Candy

Oh I forgot about the avocado's and the dogs. My dogs have been eating avocado's for years and they love them. The only thing that I've found with dogs eating avocado is that when they eat them when they've fallen and are starting to rot and they eat a lot it can make them vomit. Emma (our Chocolate Labrador) will come in coughing sometimes because a seed has gotten in her throat. I'm not sure if it's the seeds or the rotting skin that makes this happen. I will put avocado in their food when they're ripe, they love that.


----------



## Madkins007

You know, this has been an interesting example of how information spreads. There is no clinical literature suggesting that avocado is a risk for reptiles in general and many keepers of different species have reported no problems when used in moderation.

However, some people comment that they vaguely remember 'something' about avocado, and one one member has an unfortunate situation in which a quarter of an avocado may have played a role. Suddenly, the recommendations are 'it is a no no food'. Surely there is a more rational and reasonable response?


----------



## cdmay

Madkins007 said:


> You know, this has been an interesting example of how information spreads. There is no clinical literature suggesting that avocado is a risk for reptiles in general and many keepers of different species have reported no problems when used in moderation.
> 
> However, some people comment that they vaguely remember 'something' about avocado, and one one member has an unfortunate situation in which a quarter of an avocado may have played a role. Suddenly, the recommendations are 'it is a no no food'. Surely there is a more rational and reasonable response?



One thing that I think sometimes happens is that someone will _over feed _a certain type of food, usually a fruit, and have a negative experience as a result. So from that time on the offending food item will be considered as bad or risky by that person. That keeper may then go on to warn others against ever feeding that item to their tortoises.

I once fed a young newly imported tortoise a bunch of mango and it puked a little while later. It was thin and I was trying to put some weight on it by getting it to eat a lot. I clearly should not have given it so much mango all at once and learned a valuable lesson. But that doesn't mean that mangos in moderation are bad for tortoises. 
There are a number of foods ( bananas, strawberries, and again, mangos) that if fed in large amounts can have undesirable results
like diarrhea or worse, and avocados might fall into that catagory too. 
Still I tend to agree, at least in part, with tortoisenerd's caution and if you are not sure about something, don't offer it to your animals.


----------



## Madkins007

cdmay said:


> Still I tend to agree, at least in part, with tortoisenerd's caution and if you are not sure about something, don't offer it to your animals.



And I am not against the 'better safe than sorry' view, but if we listen to all the people warning about all the foods, we would soon be left with little to offer. Even collards and turnip greens are brassicas and many people feel brassicas and other goiterogens should be avoided (although, when those same people list the brassicas, they almost always omit these useful greens for some reason!)

It is hard enough to find good stuff at the store in a Nebraska winter if I have to cross off most of the produce section. It is hard to find other foods that can offer some of the benefits that things like garlic and avocado can. 

....................................

On a slightly different note- I just had to share that yesterday's shopping trip I got a deli container with a variety of stuff from the salad bar at the store- just small amounts of an assortment- squash slices, cuke slices, baby corn, chopped mushrooms, bell pepper, sprouts, pea pods, and so forth with a bit of my home made nutrient mix on it, and two of my guys are circling the plate, taking a bite of this then of that as a hermit crab is sitting on one end of the plate eating whatever is under it.


----------



## DoctorCosmonaut

I never even thought about avocados being potentially dangerous... maybe a bad thing I absent mindedly just fed them something... but they loved it and they never had have a problem when I give them a little mixed in with fruit.


----------

