# Live naked people



## Kapidolo Farms

Armchair forays into chelonian conservation.

“This will be brief, no matter how long it takes.” Former Mayor of Philadelphia, John Street.

My life has been a long and bumpy road, I’m glad to have shared it with so many chelonians

As a very young child, about 3 or 4, I had two red-ear sliders and two reeves turtles in a plastic bowl with a plastic palm tree and they were fed hamburger on a toothpick. My parents ‘disappeared’ their enclosure and deaths when I wasn’t looking, they knew I had become very attached in a short time. Later in my pre-teens I got to work for my Aunt and Uncle’s pet shop, my Aunt’s love for turtles was overly represented in that pet shop, and in her own animals at home.

As a slightly older preteen I would go the meeting of the Bay Area turtle and Tortoise Society, sometimes catching rides with older friends I could talk into the adventure some 50 miles away from home to Berkeley where the meeting were held. I found myself at this age wondering about the future of turtles in the wild. The pivotal awareness came from a manipulation of water reservoirs in Marin County CA.

Several reservoirs were drained during the fall of one year to prompt voters to pass a bond to support more reservoirs, unfortunately that winter provided little rain and several stabile populations of western pond turtles were disrupted. One member of that turtle club decided to solicit people who had to idle their swimming pools to keep the turtles for a year, until rain returned and the turtles could be returned to their reservoirs. My small role was to tag the turtles for follow-up. My typical teen interest led me to cute girls and fast cars, California living at its teen best, but no follow-up on those turtles.

During that same period early teens I had amassed a reasonable collection of pet turtles including what are now multi $$ thousand exotics as well as common domestic species. That collection was given away too many people as the cars, girls, a swim team, Boy Scouts and working odd jobs around my high school schedule took over. My Eagle project was to put a cattle exclusion fence up around the Fairfield Osborne Nature preserve in Sonoma County, there was/is a large population of western pond turtles there.

An initial interest to pursue zoology in college was dismissed by both academic advisers and family. Undergraduate college was a ‘no pet turtle’ or turtle conservation period of my life. Fast forward to post college, with a mishmash of schooling that ended with a degree in Agricultural Production. I became a volunteer at what is now the Fresno Chaffee Zoo, and had a great time being in that Reptile house with some truly unique and wonderful herps. A few turtles started coming back into my home around then, somehow like a pathogen or passion, the turtle interest was re-rooted into my life.

Some work related to animals husbandry in farming transitioned into an actual job at the Fresno Chaffee Zoo after enough volunteer hours added up to the requisite experience. At about the same time, I with a few others, founded the San Joaquin Herpetological society. The SJHS was a big instant success, still pre-internet; it was the go to place for people with a herp interest.

That’s where I met Yvonne who I now think of as my ‘turtle wife’. However I ended up going to the Philadelphia Zoo, and again, the collection of animals was paired down and Yvonne became a life saver for me, keeping many of the turtles and tortoises until I could sort things out.

These two collections built and dispersed and the few conservation projects I had been involved with set a stage for a third much more substantive collection and what I reported on elsewhere as the Asian Scholarship Program for In-situ Chelonian Conservation. That third collection was dispersed as I went back to school and worked multiple full and part time jobs to make up for the poor income zoo keepers are subjected to for virtue of the fun and privilege to work at a zoo. Not having a collection at home also afforded the time and resources to get a graduate degree in organismal biology.

Now back in California again and having Yvonne further help with maintaining a multisite collection I am again considering what kind of conservation initiatives I can become involved with. The local natural history museum and the local ‘authorities’ seem to have no use for someone like myself, with one foot in captive animals and one in native or natural populations. 

I would like to more emulate those few folks who have been able to partially or wholly sustain themselves with breeding and selling with a pet turtle/tortoise enterprise, but still also be contributing to wild chelonian conservation. I have a strong idea about when conservation is hubristic meddling and ego empire building versus keeping wild turtles wild in the wild. This has brought some conflict, but I’m okay with that.

So - what to do?

I stumbled across something that I hope will set a trend.

When people use PayPal they select what kind of transaction it will be- commerce versus family or friend. PayPal charges 3% to those in commerce but leaves that money alone for the friend and family transaction. When I sell tortoises I noticed some people use the friend and family option. I get a small 3% bonus on the sale. 

I have decided to give that bonus to turtle and tortoise conservation efforts. I prefer small one man shows, the bang for the buck is so much higher. Like in business it has the greatest ROI, and rarely a large overall return. I’ll ask that you trust me on this POV, I am very sure of my statement.

I will never ask a customer to use the friend and family method, because then they lose the ability to seek a refund directly with PayPal, it can be risky for a new relationship to hope for that much trust to work. But whenever that is the case that 3% is going to go to the conservation program of my choice. It’s a bit of a conservation “tax” funded by trust between the buyer and me. I’ll sooner or later offer information on where the $$ went, so that it’s not all suspected as feces to promote sales. The reckoning is never going to be public; it will always be private between me and my accountant. The recipient can talk it up or not - that would never be a condition, and the first recipient has been asked to keep it to themselves. I’ll out myself later when it seems appropriate to me.

I hope this can be a trending way to allow those of us who are small scale breeders to offer a bit back to the chelonians in the wild. It will not cost me anything, it’s $$ that is based on the trust a buyer has for me as a seller. I believe this could collectively make a substantial difference. 

That’s why I call it armchair chelonian conservation. I collect some $$ passively, and send it on, all while sitting in a chair.


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## Yvonne G

Sounds good, Will. In that same vein, I shop Amazon Smile and they donate a percentage of my purchase to a charity of my choice, and so far, naturally, my choice has been turtle related.

We now have almost 50 leopard eggs cookin'. This means more 3% donations in our future!!


(you posted this 4 minutes ago, and so far I'm the only 'viewer' who bit on the live naked people thing)


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## dmmj

good idea but misleading title I was expecting naked where is it?


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

I was the third to fall for it !


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## dmmj

just remember as a moderator it's my job to check out suspicious threads my interest in this thread was purely for the protection of the form honest


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

I went because without pics I wanted to see how it would be naked ! I know dirty old man


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## jaizei

dmmj said:


> good idea but misleading title I was expecting naked where is it?




It's much more intimate to bare your soul than your body.


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## dmmj

jaizei said:


> It's much more intimate to bare your soul than your body.


true that but I'm very visual


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## mike taylor

I took the bait ! Now where's the naked people ?


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## wellington

Okay, I too was wonder what in the world was happening. Will being a member for some time now, I couldnt believe what he could be doing. Then when I seen dmmj had posted, I thought oh no. 
That's a great thing Will. Hopefully others will follow. I too, do the Amazon smile.

Notice how many mods are here


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## Kapidolo Farms

jaizei said:


> It's much more intimate to bare your soul than your body.


I knew someone would understand 'naked' has a depth beyond skin. A nude image of me would shut down the whole of the internet, we don't want that. 


Yvonne G said:


> Sounds good, Will. In that same vein, I shop Amazon Smile and they donate a percentage of my purchase to a charity of my choice, and so far, naturally, my choice has been turtle related.
> 
> We now have almost 50 leopard eggs cookin'. This means more 3% donations in our future!!
> 
> 
> (you posted this 4 minutes ago, and so far I'm the only 'viewer' who bit on the live naked people thing)


It is a thing! or Thang as some might say.

I so look forward to more neonates, now that I'm in a house and have lots of room, it is more pleasure than I imagined. 

NAKED, more image rich than an actual naked person. What's that thing I said one time to the hot babe at the local adult beverage establishment. "You have dressed in such a way that there is little left to the imagination, yet my imagination is running wild". Yeah Haw


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

mike taylor said:


> I took the bait ! Now where's the naked people ?


Another dirty old man


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> Armchair forays into chelonian conservation.
> 
> “This will be brief, no matter how long it takes.” Former Mayor of Philadelphia, John Street.
> 
> My life has been a long and bumpy road, I’m glad to have shared it with so many chelonians
> 
> As a very young child, about 3 or 4, I had two red-ear sliders and two reeves turtles in a plastic bowl with a plastic palm tree and they were fed hamburger on a toothpick. My parents ‘disappeared’ their enclosure and deaths when I wasn’t looking, they knew I had become very attached in a short time. Later in my pre-teens I got to work for my Aunt and Uncle’s pet shop, my Aunt’s love for turtles was overly represented in that pet shop, and in her own animals at home.
> 
> As a slightly older preteen I would go the meeting of the Bay Area turtle and Tortoise Society, sometimes catching rides with older friends I could talk into the adventure some 50 miles away from home to Berkeley where the meeting were held. I found myself at this age wondering about the future of turtles in the wild. The pivotal awareness came from a manipulation of water reservoirs in Marin County CA.
> 
> Several reservoirs were drained during the fall of one year to prompt voters to pass a bond to support more reservoirs, unfortunately that winter provided little rain and several stabile populations of western pond turtles were disrupted. One member of that turtle club decided to solicit people who had to idle their swimming pools to keep the turtles for a year, until rain returned and the turtles could be returned to their reservoirs. My small role was to tag the turtles for follow-up. My typical teen interest led me to cute girls and fast cars, California living at its teen best, but no follow-up on those turtles.
> 
> During that same period early teens I had amassed a reasonable collection of pet turtles including what are now multi $$ thousand exotics as well as common domestic species. That collection was given away too many people as the cars, girls, a swim team, Boy Scouts and working odd jobs around my high school schedule took over. My Eagle project was to put a cattle exclusion fence up around the Fairfield Osborne Nature preserve in Sonoma County, there was/is a large population of western pond turtles there.
> 
> An initial interest to pursue zoology in college was dismissed by both academic advisers and family. Undergraduate college was a ‘no pet turtle’ or turtle conservation period of my life. Fast forward to post college, with a mishmash of schooling that ended with a degree in Agricultural Production. I became a volunteer at what is now the Fresno Chaffee Zoo, and had a great time being in that Reptile house with some truly unique and wonderful herps. A few turtles started coming back into my home around then, somehow like a pathogen or passion, the turtle interest was re-rooted into my life.
> 
> Some work related to animals husbandry in farming transitioned into an actual job at the Fresno Chaffee Zoo after enough volunteer hours added up to the requisite experience. At about the same time, I with a few others, founded the San Joaquin Herpetological society. The SJHS was a big instant success, still pre-internet; it was the go to place for people with a herp interest.
> 
> That’s where I met Yvonne who I now think of as my ‘turtle wife’. However I ended up going to the Philadelphia Zoo, and again, the collection of animals was paired down and Yvonne became a life saver for me, keeping many of the turtles and tortoises until I could sort things out.
> 
> These two collections built and dispersed and the few conservation projects I had been involved with set a stage for a third much more substantive collection and what I reported on elsewhere as the Asian Scholarship Program for In-situ Chelonian Conservation. That third collection was dispersed as I went back to school and worked multiple full and part time jobs to make up for the poor income zoo keepers are subjected to for virtue of the fun and privilege to work at a zoo. Not having a collection at home also afforded the time and resources to get a graduate degree in organismal biology.
> 
> Now back in California again and having Yvonne further help with maintaining a multisite collection I am again considering what kind of conservation initiatives I can become involved with. The local natural history museum and the local ‘authorities’ seem to have no use for someone like myself, with one foot in captive animals and one in native or natural populations.
> 
> I would like to more emulate those few folks who have been able to partially or wholly sustain themselves with breeding and selling with a pet turtle/tortoise enterprise, but still also be contributing to wild chelonian conservation. I have a strong idea about when conservation is hubristic meddling and ego empire building versus keeping wild turtles wild in the wild. This has brought some conflict, but I’m okay with that.
> 
> So - what to do?
> 
> I stumbled across something that I hope will set a trend.
> 
> When people use PayPal they select what kind of transaction it will be- commerce versus family or friend. PayPal charges 3% to those in commerce but leaves that money alone for the friend and family transaction. When I sell tortoises I noticed some people use the friend and family option. I get a small 3% bonus on the sale.
> 
> I have decided to give that bonus to turtle and tortoise conservation efforts. I prefer small one man shows, the bang for the buck is so much higher. Like in business it has the greatest ROI, and rarely a large overall return. I’ll ask that you trust me on this POV, I am very sure of my statement.
> 
> I will never ask a customer to use the friend and family method, because then they lose the ability to seek a refund directly with PayPal, it can be risky for a new relationship to hope for that much trust to work. But whenever that is the case that 3% is going to go to the conservation program of my choice. It’s a bit of a conservation “tax” funded by trust between the buyer and me. I’ll sooner or later offer information on where the $$ went, so that it’s not all suspected as feces to promote sales. The reckoning is never going to be public; it will always be private between me and my accountant. The recipient can talk it up or not - that would never be a condition, and the first recipient has been asked to keep it to themselves. I’ll out myself later when it seems appropriate to me.
> 
> I hope this can be a trending way to allow those of us who are small scale breeders to offer a bit back to the chelonians in the wild. It will not cost me anything, it’s $$ that is based on the trust a buyer has for me as a seller. I believe this could collectively make a substantial difference.
> 
> That’s why I call it armchair chelonian conservation. I collect some $$ passively, and send it on, all while sitting in a chair.


Very nice Will. But off topic.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> Very nice Will. But off topic.


My thread, my topic, yeah! Now I'm flip flopping back to captive animals, but it's still a naked reality.

With seeing @Tom 's image rich description, and now having seen them live, I am jumping into building a some night houses. I had considered using plastic lumber and aluminum siding in an effort to eliminate termite and other insect issues, but came across using a boric acid wash that can go directly on the wood. So first step in my build is placing the boric acid on what will be the inside surface of the panels/walls of the night house. Inside the wall itself or the C side of the plywood.



Some people believe that termites won't go into plywood, but in fact they will, they will even go through Sheetrock to eat the paper. The foam which I will use already has some vermin repellent quality to it. The boric soaks through to the A side of the plywood, it's fantastic stuff, with a 30 year effective life if kept dry. Here is the web page for this particular brand http://nisuscorp.com/builders/products/BORA-CARE I've treated most of the exposed wood in the attic space of my house, and when I have had occasion to open a hole in a wall, I foam it with this stuff. I also bought a foaming agent, and when mixed in it will hold about an inch of foam on a vertical surface until the boric acid penetrates the wood and dries, the foam does not slough. For this application though gravity is my friend, and it just soaks in.

I have gone over a bazillion ideas about size and construction, and Tom made a suggestion, use the dimensions of 16 inches and 32 inches from a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood, to maximize the wood to coverage area. I had been thinking going with a full 4 x 8 foot print, but that is excessive for the tortoises that will use this hide/night house. So the foot print will be slightly less than 32" wide by 80" long, that will be the actual roof size. This defies what I learned in calculus, but then again it does not, in that the limitation is based on the standard plywood sheet. 

I had to finish Darth's night-house first, he is so far preferring not to use it, but that's okay, it's different than @yvonne 's night houses which are essentially walk-in rooms for people as much as the tortoise. Then there are many honeydo things popping up, making drape and curtain rod enclosures that continue around the room for rope light etc.

Tonight when I get home, though, it's the fun stuff for me, working on the nighthouse.


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> My thread, my topic, yeah! Now I'm flip flopping back to captive animals, but it's still a naked reality.
> 
> With seeing @Tom 's image rich description, and now having seen them live, I am jumping into building a some night houses. I had considered using plastic lumber and aluminum siding in an effort to eliminate termite and other insect issues, but came across using a boric acid wash that can go directly on the wood. So first step in my build is placing the boric acid on what will be the inside surface of the panels/walls of the night house. Inside the wall itself or the C side of the plywood.
> 
> View attachment 144143
> 
> Some people believe that termites won't go into plywood, but in fact they will, they will even go through Sheetrock to eat the paper. The foam which I will use already has some vermin repellent quality to it. The boric soaks through to the A side of the plywood, it's fantastic stuff, with a 30 year effective life if kept dry. Here is the web page for this particular brand http://nisuscorp.com/builders/products/BORA-CARE I've treated most of the exposed wood in the attic space of my house, and when I have had occasion to open a hole in a wall, I foam it with this stuff. I also bought a foaming agent, and when mixed in it will hold about an inch of foam on a vertical surface until the boric acid penetrates the wood and dries, the foam does not slough. For this application though gravity is my friend, and it just soaks in.
> 
> I have gone over a bazillion ideas about size and construction, and Tom made a suggestion, use the dimensions of 16 inches and 32 inches from a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood, to maximize the wood to coverage area. I had been thinking going with a full 4 x 8 foot print, but that is excessive for the tortoises that will use this hide/night house. So the foot print will be slightly less than 32" wide by 80" long, that will be the actual roof size. This defies what I learned in calculus, but then again it does not, in that the limitation is based on the standard plywood sheet.
> 
> I had to finish Darth's night-house first, he is so far preferring not to use it, but that's okay, it's different than @yvonne 's night houses which are essentially walk-in rooms for people as much as the tortoise. Then there are many honeydo things popping up, making drape and curtain rod enclosures that continue around the room for rope light etc.
> 
> Tonight when I get home, though, it's the fun stuff for me, working on the nighthouse.


Man you guys really do have it harder than us with pest critters. 
It's not a problem for me, but how do you guys deal with overheating in summer months?Not just in hides but in incubators. Well actually we had a 3 day spell at 37°c. My incubator got up to 32° from a setting of 28.9°c


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## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> Man you guys really do have it harder than us with pest critters.
> It's not a problem for me, but how do you guys deal with overheating in summer months?Not just in hides but in incubators. Well actually we had a 3 day spell at 37°c. My incubator got up to 32° from a setting of 28.9°c



When I lived in Fresno I had a small basement, and that is where the incubator was kept, a very constant temp all year. In Carlsbad (San Diego area) my temps don't get above the high 80's. It ends up meaning losing a few eggs and getting more females otherwise.

There are controllers and devices to both heat and cool. I have not seen a "plug-n-play" incubator sold through pet stores that does this well, but they can be made with some bit of trial and error.


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## Kapidolo Farms

So this is the first cut, the largest piece will be the outer surface of the lid, it is 79-7/8 inches by 31-7/8. The longer of the two narrow pieces is 16 by 96 inches and the shorter piece is 16 by 48 inches. As the walls need to be uniform in height, I let the blade width waste be taken from the piece that will be the lid. The long narrow piece will now be one side of one long side wall, the shorter piece will serve the same purpose for an end wall.

When I cut the inside piece for the lid, I will do the same basic cuts, but the inside of the lid will be marginally narrower, and it will fit inside the rim of the lid. The long piece will match the other long piece for one long side wall, and the same with the short piece for an end wall.

The same general process will be used when I make the floor. So, four sheets of plywood will make a box 70 inches by 32. There will be a little waste in that the inside lid panel and the floor are an inch or so smaller than the lid or bottom. By keeping the sides at a constant 16 inches the project costs will be held to the four pieces of plywood and the 'spacer boards so that the walls can contain the insulation. More images to follow.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Along with all the other chelonian things going on I'm trying different methods of drying opuntia cactus. If you'd like to try some, send me a PM with your mailing address. I'll give you a small bag for you to try out. This is the thread where @Anyfoot has kept the conversation going well http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...d-edibles-for-winter-use.125981/#post-1174268


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## Yvonne G

I love watching thing being built. Thanks for this. As you know, I'm quite the builder myself, however, I really don't have the skills, so seeing someone else do a project helps me learn how to do it.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Will said:


> The longer of the two narrow pieces is 16 by 96 inches and the shorter piece is 16 by 48 inches.


Should have been the longer narrow piece is 16 by 79-7/8 inches.


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## Kapidolo Farms

More on the build of the nighthouse...

This is detail on the inside of the lid and progression through to the lid being complete




I don't have a table saw or a panel saw, so to make each cut straight (I don't trust myself to following a drawn line) I use a piece of super strut.





This following image is the second 4 x 8 sheet cut down. Again across one end at 16 inches to match the piece from the first panel, and again the long side. also 16 inches for its match from the other panel. Those strips are the difference between the outside piece cut for the lid and the inside piece cut for the lid.





Here is the inside of the lid with the 1-1/2 inch foam panel cut and placed, you can also see caulking/glue that will help both seal and bond the inside lid panel to the frame pieces. Those frame pieces are 1 x 1-1/2 and 1 x 3. This will allow a little bit of overhang of the lid over the side walls.






This is the inside surface of the lid, complete, less being painted, all interior surfaces have been treated with boric acid solution.





This is the outer side of the lid.






Next I will build the walls, all as separate components, so the whole structure can be transported laying flat in my Honda Fit. I plan to build them in pairs, two long sides and then two short sides, line them up and remove any height irregularity. Then lastly the base. The final 6 pieces will be fitted together here at my home, then disassembled for transport to the Fun Tortoise Farm in Clovis. where my turtle wife Yvonne impatiently waits. That's not totally fair, I said I would build this November last year, but then bought a house, that took a huge chunk of time out of getting things done. Yvonne has been a super patient excellent turtle wife.


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## Kapidolo Farms

This is what the dry opuntia looks like, paper bill for size reference. This was three smallish pads not including about an inch from each end, then cut side to side the long way to preserve the long fiber aspect of the pad.





This is a very close image, the center pulpy part dried to a paper thin width, the outer skin of the pad twisted to one side or the other and is also quite thin.





The pancakes got them on top or crumbled into their salad (two and two of the four colonies), it met their pass/fail criteria. Neonate leopard seem okay to eat everything. The K. spekii and I. forsteni made it all disappear as well. Today was the first day they all got some. I tried is crumpled with one pancake group yesterday, they ate it all.


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## Kapidolo Farms

So, what kind of Romaine do I feed out? NAKED of course! So all you who think naked is a person without clothes, it is also a pack of Romaine. Yeah.


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## Kapidolo Farms

A big squish of glue/sealer between the 1-1/2 X 1-1/2 and the plywood siding as one end unit is assembled.







This is both sides and both ends held in place sitting in the lid. Those little metal thing will be at the end of a bolt hole from the outside passed to the inside. That way the four side and bottom will be bolted together, and make the whole house moveable in panels. two ends, two sides, a top and a bottom. At this point the metal things will be installed, the four side will be bolted together temporarily, and then the bottom will be made. The smaller area on the side panel will become the door.


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## Kapidolo Farms

This is a T-nut installed on the inside of the frame. This particular one is in the floor before the insulation and second skin of plywood are placed.


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## Kapidolo Farms

This is all the panels assembled into the single box. Still needs the door affixed and the lid to hinge, I'll use plastic pipe for feet/legs, be securing a piece the whole distance front to back, one near each end. The end away from the door will be a larger diameter so there will be a slight slope inside to facilitate cleaning and to better collect warmth. Then primer, and paint, and I'll be installing it at the Fun Tortoise Farm that Yvonne manages.\






For heat I am planning on a 115 watt heat panel with a simple on/off thermostat. We will have a few month to play with it, if the thermostat's "on" cycle make is too hot, I'll get a proportional thermostat. We may put a small 24 watt T5 HO lamp in there too, on a timer to help out with day length and the bio-feedback it provides.


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## Yvonne G

I keep forgetting to call a budget electrician I know of to give me an estimate on running a new line. I'll try to remember to do that today.

The box is lookin' good, William.

Is it too late to ask for a slight modification? I think another door at the other end might be a good idea in case we decide we need to separate any of the occupants. It would be easy enough to partition the inside after the fact.


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## mike taylor

Maybe I can help you do it yourself Yvonne . If you take pictures of the way you want to run it I can tell you how to do it . It's really not that hard to do . The hardest part is digging the trench . I found an easy way to do that to . Find kids in your neighborhood to dig it for you . I cooked crawfish for the kids that helped me build my fence .


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## Kapidolo Farms

Yvonne G said:


> Is it too late to ask for a slight modification? I think another door at the other end might be a good idea in case we decide we need to separate any of the occupants. It would be easy enough to partition the inside after the fact.



uh, well yeah, when first planned as a 4 x 8 foot print that was the idea, but the smaller box is too small to do that. I can make a second box, or we can make the interior in such a way that the are mostly segregated as individuals. I can also make another box more quickly as I now have one built as experience. If I make another box that can be broken down into panels, it will be assembled with lag bolts, the t-nuts are a bit of a pain.


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## even gomer

Mike: (it's yvonne on her kindle) I don't know the regs and I'd like to go aerial. Too many buried obstacles in the way of trenching. (Water, sewer, electricity, phone)


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## even gomer

Lol...trenching


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## Kapidolo Farms

even gomer said:


> Lol...trenching


Trenching is many things but never 'lol'.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Fecal madness is about to begin...


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## Yvonne G

Will said:


> Trenching is many things but never 'lol'.



Especially with a shovel, in hard clay soil with Bermuda grass roots!!!


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## Yvonne G

Will said:


> Fecal madness is about to begin...
> 
> View attachment 146265



I don't get it. S h i t is about to begin? ?? I have no idea what that piece of equipment is.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Yvonne G said:


> I don't get it. S h i t is about to begin? ?? I have no idea what that piece of equipment is.


 That is a microscope, a pretty darn nice one. I need to get a lamp for it, and some slides and them I'm looking at poop.


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## Rutibegga

Will said:


> That is a microscope, a pretty darn nice one. I need to get a lamp for it, and some slides and them I'm looking at poop.



Out of curiosity, what are the common parasites/organisms found in torts poop? I'm still planning to submit a fecal on Troggy, but I don't know what test to order! (I'm used to working with cats, not torts!)


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## Kapidolo Farms

Rutibegga said:


> Out of curiosity, what are the common parasites/organisms found in torts poop? I'm still planning to submit a fecal on Troggy, but I don't know what test to order! (I'm used to working with cats, not torts!)


Three things they might look for that are fairly simple and many Vet Tech's can do it, actual small worms, worm eggs, and larger bodied protozoans. The best simple reference book I like and use is "understanding reptile parasites"
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1882770218/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20
There are many other books out there, but this is not overwhelming and can lead you to more if you want.


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## Rutibegga

Will said:


> Three things they might look for that are fairly simple and many Vet Tech's can do it, actual small worms, worm eggs, and larger bodied protozoans. The best simple reference book I like and use is "understanding reptile parasites"
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/1882770218/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20
> There are many other books out there, but this is not overwhelming and can lead you to more if you want.



Thank you! I keep meaning to scour some vet journals for tortoise articles, but it's been madness at my office and we're understaffed, so I haven't had time.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Rutibegga said:


> Thank you! I keep meaning to scour some vet journals for tortoise articles, but it's been madness at my office and we're understaffed, so I haven't had time.



Yeah, madness at work places are why tortoises are so good for me as pets, they take the edge off.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Rutibegga said:


> Thank you! I keep meaning to scour some vet journals for tortoise articles, but it's been madness at my office and we're understaffed, so I haven't had time.


Yeah, you know PubMed has many as well, many of those are free/open access. On no regular schedule I do a similar thing, I thought I was the only one. Google scholar has many too.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

https://www.facebook.com/KapidoloFarms

Hey all, I made a Facebook presence for this. No matter how it ends up, if/when I start selling I will always give TFO members a 10% discount. How I'll know you're a TFO member for the discount? Order here on TFO via a PM.

Until such time, the samples are free, and now that I figured out a few economies, I will be sending out samples for a longer time than I initially considered viable. One per household, unless I just send you more to try out.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

The Mulberry Angel has showered me with a winter's supply. Drying on the living room floor after being washed.


----------



## Yvonne G

I'm sure this is going over wonderfully with Tamara!


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Yvonne G said:


> I'm sure this is going over wonderfully with Tamara!


It was her suggestion, somehow that prompted me to sort out general 'crap' laying around, she's a smart woman.


----------



## mike taylor

Dammit the title got me again ! Haha


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

mike taylor said:


> Dammit the title got me again ! Haha


@mike taylor Well if you substitute mulberry leaves for fig leaves, just imagine all the naked people running around inside my house. Imagine them as you see fit to.


----------



## mike taylor

Ha-ha the mind is running wild !


----------



## dmmj

I get it now metaphysical naked not actually naked. not as fun in my honest opinion but at least I wont get scarred for life


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

@Yvonne G I got so excited to complete the night-house I forgot to take a picture and post it here. Can I burden you with that task?


----------



## Yvonne G

Happy to. Give me a few minutes.


----------



## Yvonne G

It's 90F outside today, 102F inside the greenhouse and 89F inside the night house. None of the electrical units have been fired up yet. The well-insulated box is doing great.


----------



## Turtlepete

At least its not dead naked people. That'd just get weird….

Where do you get such a huge supply of mulberry?


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Turtlepete said:


> At least its not dead naked people. That'd just get weird….
> 
> Where do you get such a huge supply of mulberry?


Hi, I met someone via TFO, that is local to me that has an occasional overabundance of mulberry, he shares it with me. I call him a "Mulberry angel" for the very helpful gift of all the leaves. I figure that person will "out" them self if they want to. Tortoises seem to like Mulberry quite alot, it is great to have a Mulberry angel.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Yvonne G said:


> It's 90F outside today, 102F inside the greenhouse and 89F inside the night house. None of the electrical units have been fired up yet. The well-insulated box is doing great.
> 
> View attachment 151537
> View attachment 151536


There are three 80 watt heat panels, a vestibule between inside and outside, that's why Two "air" curtains, and gasket around the lid. There is passive air circulation, no fan. We'll see how this combination works. Thanks to @Tom for all the great image threads on his builds and everyone else's too. I hope you all can see my modifying ideas and build on them.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

@dmmj 
I grizzled old miner comes into town for the first time in a few years. He cashes out some of his gold and decided he wants a beer and a burger before going on to other matters. he walks up the the eating establishment for which he is most familiar and sure enough it's crowded, but much more so than he recalls. Figuring that there might be a new menu he reads it. At the bottom he sees what all the fuss is about, new menu item is "Hand Job" $50.

He walks in and see the only server in the place, a really attractive women behind the bar, engaged in conversation with several customers. He knocks on the bar and she comes over and asks how can she help. He asks her if indeed she is the only person there that day, she must be horribly overworked. She winks and says its nothing she can't handle. He asks her if she is who delivers the new item on the menu. She tells him with a flirty smile that indeed she is.

He asks that before he order that she wash her hands, that he has his own unusual fetish about such. As she's washing her hands she looks over her shoulder and flashes another flirty smile. The miner notices a nail brush at the sink and indicates that would help him enjoy the day better if she used that.

When all done with an elaborate hand washing show, she comes around the bar and puts her hand on his lap and in a sexy voice asks him how he wants it. He says, I'd like the hamburger with cheese please.


----------



## Yvonne G

First thing this a.m. I checked the temperature in the greenhouse. It was 60F degrees. Then I opened the lid to Will's night box and it was 70F degrees.

There are three radiant heat panels up in that corner shown in the picture. last night I set that rheostat (or whatever it's called) to 70. I was worried that three panels would be overkill, but this a.m. 70f it is! I'll keep checking it out over the next few weeks, as it gets colder at night, but I feel confident that I can now open the door and allow the tortoises inside.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Yvonne G said:


> It's 90F outside today, 102F inside the greenhouse and 89F inside the night house. None of the electrical units have been fired up yet. The well-insulated box is doing great.
> 
> View attachment 151537
> View attachment 151536


@keepergale you can't see the second vinyl curtain as the solid wood door is closed. But there is one hanging from the 'black' bar and one vinyl curtain hanging directly behind the solid wood door. That black bar is pipe insulation over a clothes hanger rod that has vinyl curtain on it. I used the no-dimple vinyl carpet runner, double double, so four layers. The strips are cut on different intervals from one curtain sheet to another. I think many thinner vinyl strips will hold more heat in that it is lighter so slides over the shell and falls back into place better, at least for smaller species. Aldabars it might not be a good enough difference than legitimate warehouse/farm vinyl curtain material.

Here is Medea modeling the double curtain entry to the night house in Carlsbad. Two new 120 watt reptile basics heat panels in there. The simple on/off thermostat and these heat panels are killer good for heating inside a nighthouse. That's 240 watts on a thermostat and it's keeping the inside temp at 68-ish against 42 outside even with just those curtains, no solid door. Phae continues to be a pain in the a$$ but Darth and Medea totally get it.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

OK you got me ! No naked people !


----------



## Yvonne G

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> OK you got me ! No naked people !



I'm pretty sure that was his objective.


----------



## keepergale

Thanks Will


----------



## mike taylor

You guys are lucky there's kids on this forum ! This thread could turn ugly ........... But then again we do have a bunch of beautiful people on here . Namely me ! Haha


----------



## Grandpa Turtle 144

Yvonne G said:


> I'm pretty sure that was his objective.


It worked ! But shame shame your here too .


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## dmmj

I am thinking of adding the word not to this title. I believe in truth in advertising


----------



## mike taylor

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> It worked ! But shame shame your here too .


Good point ! She fell for it too ! Shame shame Yvonne !


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Yeah all the mods seemed to think the worst, but I think it is about how I push limits, not so much the title itself. Naked means many things. There is a local cleaning company called "naked clean" and of course being a man now, having grown up in the 60's as a boy, it makes me think of attractive women coming to my house and cleaning the place, while 'naked'. I suppose the woman's version of this would be 'naked pool services' or 'naked tennis'. Anyhow, naked is about more than clothes, yeah? It's, to 'me' about being a bit less clothed in political correctness, or posting an image where my tools are all laying around. Now I got to think dmmj had the wrong idea about what I mean with my "tools". I mean leaving the hammer or saw on the concrete floor as I take a picture of the nighthouse build. Or maybe there is some feces in the nighthouse when I take a picture of Darth. Those are practical images for a point, they are naked, not clothed in the idea that no tortoise feces is on the ground for more than three minutes. 

Frankly Yvonne keeps her yards more clean than anyone I know, at least for those that don't have a keeper staff.

Naked is the elaborate, perhaps boring, narrative you are reading right now, explaining what I mean. It might not always be pretty or desirable. 

That's why the first post has that John Street quote. No matter...

Funny to think about, the building where my father worked while I was young had several dozen unfolded images of naked woman, and an annualized poll of which was best. It was re-tallied every year as a whole new suite of unfolded pictures were added. Must have been over 60 of them by the time the company moved to another building. More funny was that female employees voted too, did not seem offended, and would engage me in conversation if I thought they were/are pretty as any of the models in the photos. It's a different sensibility now.


----------



## Yvonne G

Ah yes...the 'naked truth'!!


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## Kapidolo Farms

Look at the temp. She came out of a 70F nighthouse to eat, the sun will hit in about an hour from when the photo was taken this morning warming them to feeling hot to the touch. I hope we will not have an egg shutdown due to the move from Clovis to San Diego, and the eagerness to eat is all about being able to lay. Darth sure has kept up his part of the deal. I've gotten on my hands and knees to get an intimate moment view of the romance they have. He has completed mating with his maleness stuff just fine.

https://www.facebook.com/KapidoloFarms It's going on.... OM for ordering


----------



## Yvonne G

Judging from the scrapes on her carapace, he's hard at it! I was worried he would find his new lack-of-a-hip-joint too painful to give it the old college try.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

Yvonne G said:


> Judging from the scrapes on her carapace, he's hard at it! I was worried he would find his new lack-of-a-hip-joint too painful to give it the old college try.


Come on a man on his death bed would rather die then not try !


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Yvonne G said:


> Judging from the scrapes on her carapace, he's hard at it! I was worried he would find his new lack-of-a-hip-joint too painful to give it the old college try.



I don't think he is in any pain, or if there is a sensation when walking he does not consider it pain anymore. At this point it might be in his memory, for what that may be, as the way it has always been. I am beginning to think Phae likes the palm frond forest as it is where she can evade him. 

When I spy on them in the night house they are most frequently head down and sleeping. Sometimes though they are head up and looking around, throat pumping air, and seem to be liking life. Darth does not seem to 'go for it' in the nighthouse. He's a wide open spaces kind of male tortoise, a nudist at heart no doubt. Hmmm maybe should have been "Live Naked Tortoises".


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Last night all three knuckleheads were out in the palm frond forest, it got down to 47 overnight in my backyard, I don't want to see if that is a tolerable temp, besides forecasting is not that precise, and I'm not inclined to set up a temp alarm for the conditions in the backyard. I lowered the nighthouse temp a bit to 68 to 70F. It had been going up to 75F, maybe too high for them to want to retire for the night at? They eat about 80% of what I think of as their maximum daily intake right now, I don't want them to get too cold with a gut load of food. I hope this slightly lower temp will prompt them into the nighthouse on their own, if that is even a factor going on inside their decision making process, as it may be.


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## Yvonne G

Well, you're much more scientific at it than I was. The night house thing is the only reason I'm glad they now live with you. Every night (with the exception of summer nights) I would have to tote a 65lb tortoise and a 50lb tortoise into their shed. Neither one of the girls ever went in on their own. It got so bad that I finally invested in a tortoise buggy to save my back:


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

The only reason I think I had the nighthouse too warm is it is the first night that Medea was not in there on her own mobility. Usually she had been in there, so I reasoned the warmer temp in there kept her out of fooled with her ability to evaluate the potential cold for the evening. Prior she was good about going in on her own, Darth was at about 90% and Phae, well she's a bit of a b itch about it, so far she put her self in the nighthouse only one time.


----------



## Grandpa Turtle 144




----------



## Yvonne G

Medea was the worst one about going in on her own. It never occurred to me that the shed might be too warm.


----------



## Grandpa Turtle 144

Yvonne G said:


> Medea was the worst one about going in on her own. It never occurred to me that the shed might be too warm.


What first you give me the car , and now a time out for being in the car !


----------



## Yvonne G

No driving without a license!


----------



## Grandpa Turtle 144

Yvonne G said:


> No driving without a license!


But mom you gave me the keys !


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Sentence finishers, who the %^$#* are these people. Like you climbed inside my head and know what I'm going to say.

Earlier this week I went a 'financial planner' as a free service of my wife's employer. I went mostly 'cuase I worried she might sign something that includes me and it's not appropriate. She was talked into a 24.99% credit card by her dentist for background on my concern.

So this guy is an specialists in a dozen or so things, an oxymoron in itself. 

I wanted to ask if he was the go-to person for reconsidering mortgages, as that was on the flyer handed to us, and the largest word on a poster in the meeting room, in our session which included him, myself and my wife. It went something like this...

Me: I wanted to ask about (as I point to the flyer)
Him: 401k's, your wife has an excellent 401k here, she gets

Me: I want to see about
Him: you can also put money in an IRA, but that won't be matched by

Me: uh excuse m e
Him: we also have many personally managed account choices for your retirement.

Me: How about I just sit here and you do all the talking for both of us?
Himworried look) (about to say??)

Me: Dude, are the go-to guy for mortgages or not?
Him: well that is something we can help you with, but that's not really what we do.

I don't have a copy of the flyer/poster thing in the meeting room, but the word MORTGAGE was the single largest single word on it.

F-tard.


----------



## Yvonne G

Are you glad to have gotten that out of your system?


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Yvonne G said:


> Are you glad to have gotten that out of your system?


Little bit, Tamara scolded me for being rude, she has no idea what I would have said had she not been there. No idea at all.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Gobble Gobble, I have many chelonian related thanks, mostly my interest in them has filled me with engagement in life. You ever notice people who have no apparent interests? Their friends are other people who also have no interests in things, they usually have super clean everything, home, car, clothes are all ironed etc.

One of the first things that come to mind when I visit someone's home and it's clean, plastic on the furniture, spice rack is organized. They don't do anything, like a mouse in a box (opps). When I visit a friend and there is a coffee cup stained magazine on the coffee table, or an odd sock sorta semi-hidden under a chair, etc. They usually have interesting lives, and do things, travel, are avid readers, have a large family, they are engaged.

So, this interest has lead me to some really great friends in the truest nature of what a friend is, at least as I see it.. I know many people, have needs to interact with many people, am friendly to people, but they aren't really friends. They are people I know due to the circumstances of life. I find I don't like most people, It does not mean I dislike them, I just fail to like. I guess they just represent non-cannibalistic zombies. They just are there and you can't ignore them, two objects - one bit of space kind of thing, yeah?

The other day when I was at the FedEx office one of the employees was singing Xmas carols. I said " woa there cowboy, it's two days to Thanksgiving. Xmas is great, but lets keep our heads" The guy looked up at me as if at first he was going to bark at me. Tamara was clutching my hand like 'oh feces, here it comes'. But the guy saw my smirk, and ultimately said, "those guys in the stores been doing Xmas since before Halloween". I just said "yeah THOSE guys".

We chuckled, it was funny, everyone else in the FedEx lobby chuckled too, Tamara's grip on my hand loosened some. That was sorta friendly yeah? But that guy is not my friend. His work day brought him water cooler fodder or whatever is the more modern version of that POV. My friends are those of you who read that, can make a movie in your mind's eye of the scenario, and think it's funny too.

More of us ought to meet more of us. We ought to have more meet ups with people who actually meet. THANKS to everyone who took the time to meet me over the past year. That's my TFO thanks.


----------



## dmmj

that guy wasn't a sentence finisher he was an F-tard


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Everyone still under the influence of tryptophan? How's that working out?


----------



## dmmj

(looks around)


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Captain, are you left making sure I don't sneak images of unclothed people into the thread, or maybe you are hoping I might? Well, back to tortoise-ing .


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Hi, I hatched since last night. Yeah yeah. I'm a scorpio.


----------



## Yvonne G

Aw, a cute little flap jack!


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

It amazes me, at 45F outside this morning Medea is chowing down. She is consistently the first one out each moring. That pile of food will be gone by day's end, with Phae hanging out in the palm frond forest and getting a ride to the night box. Darth occasionally stays out with her, but tends to go in on his own more and more.
The piles of feces where the sun does shine indicates daily basking, which I don't see when I'm at work. Work now is leave while dark in the morning, and get home when dark at night.


----------



## Yvonne G

Her carapace shows quite a bit of breeding activity has been going on. I'm so glad you keep us updated on the Manouria. I really miss having them here.

When they lived here, the evening stragglers always "got a ride" to the night shed. I never wanted to take a chance on them getting too cold. I have no more use for their wagon. Would you like to have it?


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Yvonne G said:


> Her carapace shows quite a bit of breeding activity has been going on. I'm so glad you keep us updated on the Manouria. I really miss having them here.
> 
> When they lived here, the evening stragglers always "got a ride" to the night shed. I never wanted to take a chance on them getting too cold. I have no more use for their wagon. Would you like to have it?
> 
> View attachment 158200
> View attachment 158201


Next time I come, no doubt jan/feb, we can see.

I sound like I have tourette's syndrome when all three need to be put away. I am sure my neighbors may soon volunteer to do the job just so they don't have to hear me fussing and cussing in the dark.

This next weekend I will use white nail polish on them so my mother-in-law who has the window onto their enclosure can tell me which ones are doing what. They all look the same to her and she speaks Russian, so the translation is already I bit difficult, let alone saying which one did what. I'll let her indicate how she wants them labeled hopefully by a single character of her choosing, maybe some odd cyrillic character?

Weekends they get their microwave eggs, I want to make sure crows don't figure that out. I so fully understand your missing them Yvonne. You do still have the Mee, and Tamara is super happy about that.


----------



## Yvonne G

Will said:


> Next time I come, no doubt jan/feb, we can see.
> 
> I sound like I have tourette's syndrome when all three need to be put away. I am sure my neighbors may soon volunteer to do the job just so they don't have to hear me fussing and cussing in the dark.



Believe me, I sympathise. When Dana lived across the street he was great about coming over just before dark and carrying them into the shed for me.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Today the Mulberry angel has their wings beneath a jolly red coat with coal buttons, so is a Mulberry Santa today. The trees were pruned by some winds awhile back, now that trimming has stimulated new leaf growth. Mulberry santa. Yeah!


----------



## dmmj

Will said:


> Next time I come, no doubt jan/feb, we can see.
> 
> I sound like I have tourette's syndrome when all three need to be put away. I am sure my neighbors may soon volunteer to do the job just so they don't have to hear me fussing and cussing in the dark.
> 
> This next weekend I will use white nail polish on them so my mother-in-law who has the window onto their enclosure can tell me which ones are doing what. They all look the same to her and she speaks Russian, so the translation is already I bit difficult, let alone saying which one did what. I'll let her indicate how she wants them labeled hopefully by a single character of her choosing, maybe some odd cyrillic character?
> 
> Weekends they get their microwave eggs, I want to make sure crows don't figure that out. I so fully understand your missing them Yvonne. You do still have the Mee, and Tamara is super happy about that.


it's better to light a candle than curse the darkness. but I do enjoy cursing in the dark. still no naked people though.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

dmmj said:


> it's better to light a candle than curse the darkness. but I do enjoy cursing in the dark. still no naked people though.


I use a flashlight, but one that requires a hand. I guess I ought to get one of the cap type hats with the flashlight build into the brim.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

I'm a zoo member, so get their magazine. There is always some reptile interest article, often regarding the more charismatic animals in the collection. This is an often seen image of a collection of gallops which started most colonies currently in the USA.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

G ary @GBtortoises had two Reptibators for sale, and I was lucky enough to sort that out and get them. So as a review of sorts I'd want to convey, if you have occasion to do business with Gary, he is amicable and communicative about what is going on from his side.

I always have some "red alert" going off in my head when ever I am doing any kind of internet based buying or selling. If you have such an occasion with Gary, no such mind set is appropriate. 

Thanks Gary.


----------



## Yvonne G

I think you meant "Gary" at gbtortoises.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Yvonne G said:


> I think you meant "Gary" at gbtortoises.


Yes, you are correct. That darn memory, thank Yvette.


----------



## dmmj

still no naked people? :-(


----------



## jaizei

dmmj said:


> still no naked people? :-(


 
I'm naked while reading this, if it helps.


----------



## dmmj

jaizei said:


> I'm naked while reading this, if it helps.


no, not really


----------



## Yvonne G

dmmj said:


> still no naked people? :-(



Here ya go, David:


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

The latest climate Whoopty-Doo, rain in San Diego, has helped the snails out, and so the hingeback are getting a windfall of a snack they like. 

The regular European gardens snails are much desired, the funny corkscrew guys in the image are not liked at all. As a matter of fact the are predatory on the European Garden snails, each other, dead bugs and they still eat plant material.

Somewhere in someone else's thread I said I post the picture of the snails in my garden, I can't find it now, so here it is, live naked snails.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

At the Pomona reptile super shows today.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Will said:


> At the Pomona reptile super shows today.


I am having a bit of a presence crisis at shows like this. I was wearing my old ZooMed t-shirt, no doubt older than the average age of attendees. My fellow attendee noted, and I agree, it could have been a bachelor show ala bridal show, so many clean cut people. Not the collection of tattooed, pierced generally goth looking folks in the line, but clean cut apple pie eaten baseball loving people. Prices are now 1.2 x pet shop, long gone seem to be the 0.6 of pet shop prices. 

One dude said hey, when was the last time you saw neonate burm starts at a show? My reply of "last show I was at" got me called an A$$ hole. They had b grade animals at A+ prices. 

Tyler was there so I got the super size water tray from him. Some Ca+D3 somewhere else with an honest to goodness expiry date in 2018 not 2015 rounded out the expenditures. A few tortoises that looked great to my eye. Sunland had really nice looking neonate redfoots and marginated that looked wild caught their shells were so perfect (a node to husbandry, not poachery).


----------



## dmmj

Will said:


> I am having a bit of a presence crisis at shows like this. I was wearing my old ZooMed t-shirt, no doubt older than the average age of attendees. My fellow attendee noted, and I agree, it could have been a bachelor show ala bridal show, so many clean cut people. Not the collection of tattooed, pierced generally goth looking folks in the line, but clean cut apple pie eaten baseball loving people. Prices are now 1.2 x pet shop, long gone seem to be the 0.6 of pet shop prices.
> 
> One dude said hey, when was the last time you saw neonate burm starts at a show? My reply of "last show I was at" got me called an A$$ hole. They had b grade animals at A+ prices.
> 
> Tyler was there so I got the super size water tray from him. Some Ca+D3 somewhere else with an honest to goodness expiry date in 2018 not 2015 rounded out the expenditures. A few tortoises that looked great to my eye. Sunland had really nice looking neonate redfoots and marginated that looked wild caught their shells were so perfect (a node to husbandry, not poachery).


so the long haired scruffy look is out?


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

I think so.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Dinosaurs eating breakfast. Darth never let's pass a moment to woo the girls. Weekend mornings when I'm here at winter's late sunrise it sounds funny to hear his pig like grunting and happy sounds.

They may be due for a weight check, Medea is heavy.


----------



## Yvonne G

Phae's shell size is quickly catching up to Medea's size. I know she doesn't weigh as much, but volume-wise, she looks the same size now. Darth has a lot of growing to do if he wants to be as big as the girls.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Taiwan. Hey all, I'm likely going to Taiwan for a short trip some time later this year, are there members here from the Island? It could be fun to meet for a tea, beer, or to talk turtles. Unfortunately I am only an English speaker. Well, give a shout out if you think you might want to have a get together for a few minutes/hours over a meal, or just the tea, beer idea.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

The Manouria pen is partially under a pine tree, and the Manouria like to rake the pine straw (needles) around. Darth, the male, did the front leg backsweep when here as a healing bachelor from his dislocated rear left leg.

Well, now that the girls are here, Phae and Medea, I added much more, about 18 inches deep over an area about 12 x 20 feet, at the far end on the enclosure, the sunny side of the fake palm forest.

Yesterday Medea was busy pushing and piling pine straw up. She dropped one egg a few weeks ago, I found it torn open but still wet with albumin. I have hopes she will lay a bounty of eggs and that I'm able to hatch them. If so that would be an F1 generation of studbooked M.e.p. from San Diego. 

The group has been eating 5 to seven pounds of food most days. I will have to weigh Medea, I swear she most be topping 70 to 80 pounds now or else I have gotten very weak. Maybe some combination of the two? 

Even on sunny days when the air temp is 65F, they will all laze around in a sunny spot. When I touch their shell it is very warm, so maybe they are super good IR absorbers being so dark a color.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Here she is sitting atop her nest, I don't know yet if there are eggs inside. I don't want to wreck her triumph and fool with it yet. I'll try luring her off with food within view but off the nest by Saturday.
The image orientation may be weird (smart phone?). The nest is about 18 inches high, and 4 foot by 6 foot. It has been incorporated into the most late afternoon sunny spot of the fake palm forest.

She pulled all that together from Monday to last night. Two big piles of eucalyptus mulch and about a cubic yard (or more) of pine straw. As stoic as there faces may be, she seems to be happy with her effort.

I believe they have egos, and to fuss looking for eggs and fooling with what she has done might have the consequence of her not going to the effort next year, or maybe even another clutch this year, if indeed there are eggs in there now.

More to follow.


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## Yvonne G

Too bad you didn't weigh her prior to the nest building. Then you could weigh her again after and you would know if she had dropped the eggs.


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## Kapidolo Farms

If tortoises could talk..... I think Medea is saying she wants MORE nest building stuff. I'll have to get more now. Yesterday when I got home it was still light out, so I went to say hello to my outside tortoises. As Medea was scrapping up that very last bit of eucalyptus mulch I laid a whole romaine head just aside her apparent path. She didn't leave her task, but ate it along the way. Phae is sitting at the base of the mound well hidden in the palm frond forest.

Darth seems to have lost interest in them, so I hope that is further indication they can have some level of communication. He comes out eats, sits in a sunny spot, then goes back in the nighthouse.

The girls are okay to stay out overnight, the temps may get as low as 55F but for a few hours, as soon as light appears, about the time I leave for work, the temp is already back up to 62F or more. Most nights it stays above 60F as the low point. Gotta love that marine air layer.

My mother in law, whose bedroom window looks into the tortoise pen, makes many periodic observations throughout the day. Her active spoken English is minimal, and my wife gets noticeable tired of translating "tortoise observations", so at best I get bits and pieces of activity when I don't see for myself. Alla, my mother in law, is somewhat afraid of them and it makes collecting lemons from the tree in the pen difficult. Those are the moments, getting lemons, that I can chat her up to hear about what she sees.


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## Yvonne G

I really didn't have much info on Medea's nest building/egg laying, but when Phae would start nest building, she deposited the eggs almost immediately, then spent the next two weeks or so scraping and piling up more debris on the nest.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Yvonne G said:


> I really didn't have much info on Medea's nest building/egg laying, but when Phae would start nest building, she deposited the eggs almost immediately, then spent the next two weeks or so scraping and piling up more debris on the nest.




Okay, so maybe there are eggs in there, I will find out tomorrow.


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## Kapidolo Farms

I couldn't lure Medea off the mound with bananas or artificial rain. She came down later to warm herself in full sun. I worked the mound edge to edge, no eggs in there, I gave her another wheelbarrow pile of mixed eucalyptus mulch and decomposing palm frond (from inside the palm frond forest) and about another wheelbarrow load of pine straw. She ate the banana on her way back to the mound. I think I put it back enough into her shape she's okay with it.

So I weighed her, Medea is 68 pounds. Phae weighs 54 pounds, Darth didn't come out of the night house yet today, I'll weigh him later. Only 12 pounds different between the girls but Medea feels like much more. 

Alla and Tamara are a bit disappointed, no eggs. Yet!


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> I couldn't lure Medea off the mound with bananas or artificial rain. She came down later to warm herself in full sun. I worked the mound edge to edge, no eggs in there, I gave her another wheelbarrow pile of mixed eucalyptus mulch and decomposing palm frond (from inside the palm frond forest) and about another wheelbarrow load of pine straw. She ate the banana on her way back to the mound. I think I put it back enough into her shape she's okay with it.
> 
> So I weighed her, Medea is 68 pounds. Phae weighs 54 pounds, Darth didn't come out of the night house yet today, I'll weigh him later. Only 12 pounds different between the girls but Medea feels like much more.
> 
> Alla and Tamara are a bit disappointed, no eggs. Yet!


 I think I'm as anxious about Medea laying as you guys are. Keep the stories coming. Thoroughly enjoying the read.


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## Yvonne G

Will said:


> I couldn't lure Medea off the mound with bananas or artificial rain. She came down later to warm herself in full sun. I worked the mound edge to edge, no eggs in there, I gave her another wheelbarrow pile of mixed eucalyptus mulch and decomposing palm frond (from inside the palm frond forest) and about another wheelbarrow load of pine straw. She ate the banana on her way back to the mound. I think I put it back enough into her shape she's okay with it.
> 
> So I weighed her, Medea is 68 pounds. Phae weighs 54 pounds, Darth didn't come out of the night house yet today, I'll weigh him later. Only 12 pounds different between the girls but Medea feels like much more.
> 
> Alla and Tamara are a bit disappointed, no eggs. Yet!



She consistently weighed 65lbs here, so I'd say she's still full of eggs.


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## dmmj

disappointment sets in :-(


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## Yvonne G

dmmj said:


> disappointment sets in :-(



Not to worry. I have faith in William's methods.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Another two 55 gallon bags of pine straw and all the other two additions swept up into the ever broadening pile. It lost some height with both my and Medea's manipulations. There is a distinct path up and down. It does not really show in photos, two many browns and grays I guess. Alla and I have not seen here go to the food place or the water dish, so I put the old smaller water dish over on ;her' side of the palm frond forest and a few path tiles for her food and she drank and ate. Her reproductive rapture does know at least some bounds. She does appear to be on drugs, as far as tortoise expressions go.


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## Yvonne G

I called that being in the zone.


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## Kapidolo Farms

So today's weigh-in shows Medea at 67 pounds, and I got darth into the mix, his weight is 61 pounds of all man-tortoise. I did not re-weigh Phae today, she is pretty deep in the palm frond forest.


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## dmmj

still waiting.....


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## Yvonne G

Will said:


> So today's weigh-in shows Medea at 67 pounds, and I got darth into the mix, his weight is 61 pounds of all man-tortoise. I did not re-weigh Phae today, she is pretty deep in the palm frond forest.



Boy, Darth is really growing! Pretty soon he'll be the biggest one.


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## Yvonne G

dmmj said:


> still waiting.....



For the naked people? I think you've got a long wait.


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## dmmj

Yvonne G said:


> For the naked people? I think you've got a long wait.


I am a very patient man


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## jaizei

dmmj said:


> I am a very patient man



Be careful what you wish for.


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## Kapidolo Farms

dmmj said:


> I am a very patient man


look in a mirror, get over it.


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## Kapidolo Farms

An update here on Medea. Wednesday morning Tamara found an egg early in the morning, likely right after it was released. I check on the tortoises nearly every morning, and she was on the ground off the steep side of her mound, somewhat protected in the palm frond forest. When Tamara went out about an hour later she found Medea on top of the mound (she climb a nearly vertical side) and there was one egg on the ground and a small poop. I'm thinking it was an accident, she may indeed have a hard time coordinating which impulse and set of muscles does what exactly. The egg looks 'good' and is in one of three incubators set up for all ongoing potential production.

Medea has grown fully aware we are not predators, but allies to her. She does not pull her head in or react with any more than 'what food are you going to offer' as we put our hands near her. She readily gobbles down cumbers, squash, and whole heads of greens, and big slices of opuntia. That later seemingly a favorite.

This morning is rainy and overcast, but temps are highish at 64F. Her nest is well placed, she gets early morning sun, for about an hour or so, and many hours of mid to late afternoon. Mid day is shaded by a huge pine tree, just well enough to keep her in the rain shadow, she is high and dry even though it rained all night.


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## Yvonne G

So now you know you don't have to dig through the nest. She's still holding the eggs.


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## Anyfoot

What sort of clutch size is expected with the manouria?


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## Kapidolo Farms

They produce the largest single clutch of any non aquatic chelonian, exceeding 80 eggs from the largest adult females. Medea has laid about 40 in a single clutch before. This is from recall. I'll look for a researched answer later.


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## Yvonne G

She averages 50 eggs per clutch.


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> They produce the largest single clutch of any non aquatic chelonian, exceeding 80 eggs from the largest adult females. Medea has laid about 40 in a single clutch before. This is from recall. I'll look for a researched answer later.


Wow. I'm guessing there is a high risk of becoming prey in the wild.


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## Kapidolo Farms

So my quick at home lit search tells me 51 eggs is the high. I believe a woman Vicki Bowman? had a group, her female was one of the largest know and it laid some 80 eggs, but perhaps my memory is at fault? Either way, It's many.


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## Kapidolo Farms

HHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. Weigh in yesterday was after a huge meal of about three pounds of food. There was going to be no weighing until after she ate, she was chasing me around. Two good signs in one. She weighed 64.6 pounds after eating. Weight loss and off the mound for Saturday afternoon through to today Monday. Hmm time to go on an egg hunt. I found one egg as a slowly and carefully probed about the nest. The nest is like a pie wedge against the fence and the palm frond forest. The two axis against these two barriers were each about 8 feet long. The pile at it solid top was 20 inches, the fluffiness on top of that is pine straw not yet compacted.

Well by the time my careful search was over I found zero eggs other than the nighthouse one from many weeks ago, and the accidental pooped egg about a week ago, and one right now. Three total if that got a little confusing.

Alla was watching the whole process in great anticipation, and when no bounty of eggs was found she pointed at Medea and said "dinner". Russians from Soviet times are very pragmatic.

I am wondering now where the weight and or eggs are? Was all that for those three eggs, better luck next year? Does she still have eggs in her? If after another few weeks she still looks okay and is eating and pooping I will seek a radiograph. If she starts to seem "off" at all, that trip to the vet might come sooner.


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## Yvonne G

It's so disappointing, huh? I'm sure there are more eggs. They're inside and she hasn't released them yet. Don't know about the weight loss unless someone had their toe on the scale out of your sight the first time.


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## Kapidolo Farms

http://www.turtleconservationsociety.org.my/malaysian-turtles/river-terrapin/ As I said I would here on TFO, I gave this group some funds based on sales that I made here on TFO of Cactus Chips and neonate tortoises. I fund myself to have these things that I need, the feeling that I am making a difference for wildlife, specifically chelonians.. See my FaceBook page https://it-it.facebook.com/kapidolo/ of free online sources of conservation news and open access publications for details by clicking on the link provided in that free open source information Facebook page. When you click on the link for terrapins in Malaysia do what makes you get the same kinds of things you may need.


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## Kapidolo Farms

This video relates information about Pelf and the program she is working on creating a community based conservation program.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Tone when I write might sound different to me than to you. Just so we are clear this is indeed a rant.

"I did my research on the breed . . ."

To that I say feces. I have read to many posts here on TFO where someone writes they did their research and still can't find blah blah blah. Well, based on results I'd say "No you did not do your research", less you wouldn't be saying blah blah blah. So maybe it's how you frame the post, perhaps another way would be to write 'I'm still doing more research, does anyone have a source on blah blah blah'.

The fine line of it is we are all always potentially learning more. As a high school teacher said frequently "Nobody has patent on knowledge" (just what you can do with it, would be a more modern spin). But some of the questions do not reflect finer details of knowing stuff about a tortoise, they are questions that basically could be akin to, "I am starting to try to learn why this tortoise I've had for awhile is not doing so well." Congratulations on being aware something is missing and asking on TFO is indeed a great way to delve into it. Seriously CONGRATULATIONS.

So say you are past all of that, you've read the wiki here and maybe the IUCN/redlist info all of which is often copied from elsewhere. Meaning the person writing the web page just took to information from somewhere else and compiled it for the purpose of the webpage. That person did internet research which ranges from spitting up garbage to a careful accumulation and filtering.

But all that information started somewhere, yeah? Someone made an accidental observation or had a specific purpose to understand something. An accidental observation may be in a newspaper about someone finding a road kill turtle found with eggs inside. Well based on the date of the paper, and the species, you now have a soft factoid that indicates the species in that location lays eggs about that time of year. maybe there was information associated with the picture from the person who found the turtle. Interesting story and their is natural history information contained within.

Intended observation that is written is often more ornery to read, like scientific literature. Opps some eyes just glazed over. You're likely not going to find a well crafted narrative in National Geographic about the care and husbandry of Egyptian tortoises. For that you need a hobbyist magazine and you would get you an article that I characterize as a recipe from the kitchen of ... about how the author sorted out a husbandry routine. Often a good place to read more in depth information, but it is often very site specific. The hidden information, like ambient room temp and humidity is almost always edited out if it was included in the first place. You know it's this kind of article if you find yourself strongly compelled to want to ask the author many questions. "what about . . ." etc. An example is here post 34 http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/why-my-eggs-are-shrinking.140728/page-2 .

Frankly, myself, I like to go to google scholar https://scholar.google.com/?hl=en and use the species name in the search box. So I don't miss-spell it I use copy and paste from the wiki page. So lets try it for Egyptians.

I used "testudo kleinmanni" in the search box and got these results . . .

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=testudo+kleinmanni

There is a chance the results will come up different one time to the next as each users changes how google provides the results (some mystery math formula, it's a google secret)

Anyhow on the first page of hits are at least two articles with natural history (that is husbandry information) contained within

http://www.tau.ac.il/lifesci/departments/zoology/members/geffen/documents/2Herpetologica1988.pdf

and 

http://www.tau.ac.il/~geffene/PDFs/3-J_Herpetol_1989.pdf

It would seem Dr. Geffen participates in open access, he readily shares the results of his hard work. The second link is for "Activity Patterns and Thermoregulatory Behavior of the Egyptian Tortoise Testudo kleinmanni in Israel". The title alone tells me I can find out the basic pattern of awake and hiding throught the day and what temps are preferred. Wow, that's alot of information about proper husbandry in one place. 

The real extra advantage of this kind of article is the author explicitly says what they found out, and what they found that correlates to other authors (the bibliography). 

So, it may take a couple of readings to find all the information in the kind of writing. Scientists have to do what editors tell them as well as the hobbyist who wrote the article I posted here on TFO. Either way ...

Next time you think you done alot of research, believe me, there is more. What you are really asking is for help with research others have already done. I did all this research in about 35 Minutes. Did you just look at pretty pictures of animals on google image search, or did you really read text that some spent some time on. This is what I do for a living. That will be $20 for 1/2 hour of my time. Get it?? Some of the mods do your research for you. Most are just draconian overloads, or say, "I don't know the answer but ...".

Ouch.


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## Tom

I always cringe when I read, "I've done my research…". And that sentence is usually followed by some inane question that would have already been answered by even the most cursory attempt at "research".

Did they read an article somewhere that said to keep their baby sulcata on rabbit pellets because humidity will cause respiratory infection and shell rot? Did they read something that told them protein and "fast" growth will cause pyramiding? Did they read something that says night temps in the Sahel drop down into the 50 or 60s (2 meters above ground…), so its good to keep sulcata babies cold at night?

I enjoyed your rant, and my own rant too, but what is the solution? I just try to help and provide the info where I can. What really grinds my gears is when a question is asked, I take the time to post a link that has the answer explained in detail, and then the person comes back and asks the same question and makes it obvious they couldn't be bothered to click my link and read… 

Sometimes I will copy/paste the text of the thread I linked for them...


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## JoesMum

Tom said:


> I always cringe when I read, "I've done my research…".



I'm another... you always seem to have a fight to get pictures and then, when you do, you could cry. frequently these people seem to be the ones with all the arguments as to why we are wrong too.


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## Tom

JoesMum said:


> I'm another... you always seem to have a fight to get pictures and then, when you do, you could cry. frequently these people seem to be the ones with all the arguments as to why we are wrong too.



I do it for the tortoises.

I also remember what it was to be in the dark. I really really did all the research that a person could do. For many years I researched. Books, vet, breeders, "experts". I read everything I could find in books and magazines, went to seminars, talked to the breeders and experts at every reptile show, etc… Yet I was rewarded with failure time and time again. I was so frustrated that I almost quit tortoises entirely. How different would my life be if I had gone that direction?

I wasn't able to put it all together until I started traveling all over the globe. How frustrating it is to hand someone all this knowledge and decades of experience on a silver platter with a recipe for success, only to have them argue and tell you about the same wrong info that I myself followed for a lot of years before realizing it was all wrong?

What can we do? We can share, educate, convince, and argue, but in the end they will all learn it one way or another. They can learn it the easy way by learning from other people's mistakes, or they can make their own mistakes for years, as I and so many other have done.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Tom said:


> I always cringe when I read, "I've done my research…". .



Yeah @Tom that is the source of my rank = your cringe.

I also 'get it' that some people may be isolated with an interest in chelonians, and they get so much 'feeling of person-hood' here that they are compelled to want that feeling more than they want to learn. As a pre-driving teen, I would go to meetings of the Bay Area Turtle and Tortoise Society. It took a couple of bus transfers or talking my Mom into the drive. All just to not find myself being so isolated for my interest. The few other 'herp' guys in grade school or high school were all into snakes, seeing chelonians as what a sissy was into or some kind of rationalization like that. I suppose if not for laws prohibiting it I would have traversed into smaller species of crocodilians. I did have caimens for awhile as that pre-driving teen.

Anyhow, natural history observation are never outdated. That is always my first goto if there is such that fills my information interest.

There are however some questions on my mind that I don't think there are natural history observations regarding, which must then be fulfilled by other people with captive husbandry information. 

Do Manouria have any kind of prevalence to use the same nest mounds year to year? Seems like they might. What is the wetness of the mound? What is the composition of the mound relative to the varying abundance of available materials? Do they they seem to choose nest sites where a preferred nest building material is or seek a certain profile or orientation?

Do Malacochersus migrate from rock outcrop to rock outcrop seasonally, over their life time, ever at all? Is it just an aberrant male (like box turtles) that moves about in search of new females.

In the late 1990's I sought to create a long term study of Manouria impressa, but the pitfalls of doing that kind of work in developing countries is 90% political maneuvering and 8% funding, with 2% energy left over for being in the field. Subsequently a few studies have occurred, with some little influence from me, but most of what it 'out there' is captive husbandry reporting. 

Both sources are needed. Both require finding works by the primary observer. Often mentioned here, most of what is banted about is a repeat of a repeat of something some one read somewhere.


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## Tom

@Will 

Impressa studies??? Man, I just want someone to stick a darn thermometer probe down a wild sulcata burrow once in a while…

Or observe what babies do at the end of the rainy season.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Tom said:


> @Will
> 
> Impressa studies??? Man, I just want someone to stick a darn thermometer probe down a wild sulcata burrow once in a while…
> 
> Or observe what babies do at the end of the rainy season.


As I recall that was you, going there last year at this point. You and Thomas D. had some sort of thing going on. What happened? You talked about this fall of 2012, when I first got involved with TFO. Sh!t happens!


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## Kapidolo Farms

Last night Tamara and I supervised Medea with some IM injections of oxytocin. We gave one IU per Kilo, the lower end of the range, actually the range is 3 to 5 IU/kilo. We had three single syringe loads of one IU/kilo ready to go. Radiographs on Saturday showed an estimated 45 egg in her, I did not count, vet techs did at the the hospital, and they had to look at two images and estimate. 

She had dribbled out at least seven eggs up to Monday afternoon from over a two month period. One was laid before she made her first backward scrape with front legs, found in the night house and crushed, then she build her giant nest mound. Two eggs were laid in the nest mound, two perfect but slightly desiccated eggs were found in the night box the day after she decided to abandon the nest mound, another pooped out Sunday morning, and one was found crushed in the night box Monday afternoon.

So if the vet techs counted right that would be a total of 52 eggs. Well she deposited 38 last night after the first oxytocin injection (not the predicted 45 less two laid since Saturday morning X-rays). That first injection of one IU/kilo was given at about 5:30 pm, and the first eggs were found at about 6:50. She continued dropping eggs until about 8:30, after another half hour with no eggs and thinking there might be more, I gave her a second IM injection of one IU/kilo. No more eggs by 10:00pm and no more by this morning. So actual eggs counted stands at 45 total, seven drops and 38 laid with oxytocin induction. If the vet techs counted right and I missed some around the enclosure there was 52.

All the eggs laid last night had a slight dimple in them. I rinsed them off as some had poop on them. I got my incubators set to have good air flow and maintain 89/90% RH. That is no simple trick. This morning most of the dimples were gone or much reduced. All the earlier laid eggs that may have had a chance imploded as the dimple grew, they are not re-hydrating. But they served as good models for sorting out the incubators better.

If Darth made a viable contribution, at least some should hatch. Running with the theme @keepergale suggested they would be little death stars. At some point I may candle a few and see what's what. I'll post images here and on my Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/william.espenshade.7 where some images are already posted.

My garage stays in the lower 70's F and last night got down to 68 in my backyard. The night house is set for 70F. I left Medea in the garage overnight as I don't know the full range of what oxytocin may do (safe as it is claimed to be) and the garage temp was 74F this morning. I made salads first and returned here to the outside pen and put salad in front of her. She wasted not a second in getting to eating. Phae came out right away to join her at the salad. Darth seemed to want to sleep in until after I left for the day.

Tamara and her mom Alla tell me on kids' birthdays in Russia the Mom is celebrated, not so much the child. So last night is another birthday for Medea, she did her part despite my not having something optimal for her to lay in the nest mound she made. I hope Darth did his part and didn't just act out the role with all his porno moaning. 

I notice from several images posted here and there that they want their nest mound to be much more moist if not outright wet than what Medea was able to build. The quickly desiccating eggs would tend to align with that perspective. I'll have to set up something better for that purpose for next year.


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> Last night Tamara and I supervised Medea with some IM injections of oxytocin. We gave one IU per Kilo, the lower end of the range, actually the range is 3 to 5 IU/kilo. We had three single syringe loads of one IU/kilo ready to go. Radiographs on Saturday showed an estimated 45 egg in her, I did not count, vet techs did at the the hospital, and they had to look at two images and estimate.
> 
> She had dribbled out at least seven eggs up to Monday afternoon from over a two month period. One was laid before she made her first backward scrape with front legs, found in the night house and crushed, then she build her giant nest mound. Two eggs were laid in the nest mound, two perfect but slightly desiccated eggs were found in the night box the day after she decided to abandon the nest mound, another pooped out Sunday morning, and one was found crushed in the night box Monday afternoon.
> 
> So if the vet techs counted right that would be a total of 52 eggs. Well she deposited 38 last night after the first oxytocin injection (not the predicted 45 less two laid since Saturday morning X-rays). That first injection of one IU/kilo was given at about 5:30 pm, and the first eggs were found at about 6:50. She continued dropping eggs until about 8:30, after another half hour with no eggs and thinking there might be more, I gave her a second IM injection of one IU/kilo. No more eggs by 10:00pm and no more by this morning. So actual eggs counted stands at 45 total, seven drops and 38 laid with oxytocin induction. If the vet techs counted right and I missed some around the enclosure there was 52.
> 
> All the eggs laid last night had a slight dimple in them. I rinsed them off as some had poop on them. I got my incubators set to have good air flow and maintain 89/90% RH. That is no simple trick. This morning most of the dimples were gone or much reduced. All the earlier laid eggs that may have had a chance imploded as the dimple grew, they are not re-hydrating. But they served as good models for sorting out the incubators better.
> 
> If Darth made a viable contribution, at least some should hatch. Running with the theme @keepergale suggested they would be little death stars. At some point I may candle a few and see what's what. I'll post images here and on my Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/william.espenshade.7 where some images are already posted.
> 
> My garage stays in the lower 70's F and last night got down to 68 in my backyard. The night house is set for 70F. I left Medea in the garage overnight as I don't know the full range of what oxytocin may do (safe as it is claimed to be) and the garage temp was 74F this morning.  I made salads first and returned here to the outside pen and put salad in front of her. She wasted not a second in getting to eating. Phae came out right away to join her at the salad. Darth seemed to want to sleep in until after I left for the day.
> 
> Tamara and her mom Alla tell me on kids' birthdays in Russia the Mom is celebrated, not so much the child. So last night is another birthday for Medea, she did her part despite my not having something optimal for her to lay in the nest mound she made. I hope Darth did his part and didn't just act out the role with all his porno moaning.
> 
> I notice from several images posted here and there that they want their nest mound to be much more moist if not outright wet than what Medea was able to build. The quickly desiccating eggs would tend to align with that perspective. I'll have to set up something better for that purpose for next year.


 Excellent news Will. Whats the average incubation time for manouria?


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## Kapidolo Farms

I don't have the textbook answer off the top of my head, but like most leathery shelled eggs it is short-ish, say 75 to 90 days?


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## Kapidolo Farms

I spoke with the vet yesterday evening about the result of the oxytocin induction. He suggested that the eggs have a long way to travel from somewhere in the reproductive track to being laid. Give her a few days and then use the last dose of oxytocin. So Friday night's date night with my wife will be another evening in the garage hosting a beer and egg laying adventure. I get a bit confused between Tamara saying she doesn't like the "farm' of tortoises and her deep fascination with their husbandry and management. If you are in Carlsbad Friday evening with nothing better to do and you want to see what's happening and have a barley pop, give a yell. Really, what the heck. It's sorta cool.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Will said:


> I don't have the textbook answer off the top of my head, but like most leathery shelled eggs it is short-ish, say 75 to 90 days?


Looks like closer to 60 days based on a few published accounts.


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## Yvonne G

Will said:


> I spoke with the vet yesterday evening about the result of the oxytocin induction. He suggested that the eggs have a long way to travel from somewhere in the reproductive track to being laid. Give her a few days and then use the last dose of oxytocin. So Friday night's date night with my wife will be another evening in the garage hosting a beer and egg laying adventure. I get a bit confused between Tamara saying she doesn't like the "farm' of tortoises and her deep fascination with their husbandry and management. If you are in Carlsbad Friday evening with nothing better to do and you want to see what's happening and have a barley pop, give a yell. Really, what the heck. It's sorta cool.



Years ago, when Phae first started egg production, she dribbled out some eggs on the ground. I had her X-Ray'd and she had 18 eggs left inside her. Oxytocin and calcium were administered. It didn't work. I learned at that time that oxytocin doesn't work on all species of tortoise. She never did actually lay the eggs, but after a couple weeks just started dropping them one or two at a time, over several days, all over the yard.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Yvonne G said:


> Years ago, when Phae first started egg production, she dribbled out some eggs on the ground. I had her X-Ray'd and she had 18 eggs left inside her. Oxytocin and calcium were administered. It didn't work. I learned at that time that oxytocin doesn't work on all species of tortoise. She never did actually lay the eggs, but after a couple weeks just started dropping them one or two at a time, over several days, all over the yard.


It's my understanding unless the calcium is IV injected (notoriously difficult in larger tortoises)a few hours before the oxytocin is injected to increase blood calcium level, it should be offered as calcium carbonate in the food for a few days before the oxytocin is given. The calcium is intended to increase the blood's calcium content to assist in muscle spasm control maintenance during egg laying. The kind of muscles involved can 'cramp' and cause problem, the calcium is meant to reduce or eliminate that potential. Maybe that's how it was done, it's not a quiz if you don't recall that detail.

I gave Medea lots more calcium in her Saturday, Sunday, and Monday food, and she was injected with the oyxtocin on Monday evening. The higher calcium aspect is continuing until Friday evening's beer and oxytocin event.


----------



## Yvonne G

No, the calcium and oxy were injected at the same time. The vet was not well-versed in tortoise medicine.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

I don't know if I mentioned or not, but Phae was radiographed at the same time. No eggs. After a few in-progress projects are pushed further along, I'm going to make a space for Darth to be less in the females day-to-day. Giving the girls some time to eat, grow, gain weight without his constant banter for reproductive wanting. The backyard sounds like a sound bite studio for porn flicks sometimes the way he carries on.

Thanks for the follow-up Yvonne. Even with your anecdote regarding Phae, if she presents a similar progression of nest building and retaining eggs, I'll pursue a oxytocin induction. BTW, it is Thomas Boyer DVM who was the vet seeing the girls this time. He's the vet that help resolve Darth back to stud tortoise.

I really do wish I could find a human doctor I have as much confidence in as I do for Boyer with the tortoises. 

Thomas H. Boyer, DVM
Pet Hospital of Penasquitos
9888 Carmel Mt. Road, Suite F
San Diego, CA 92129


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

It looks like I can only upload 5 image pages at a time as pdf, which are two book pages per pdf page, which is really ten book pages of content. Blah blah here is the first installment.


----------



## Yvonne G

Thanks for sharing "The Crying Tortoise". I wish I could read French. Was interesting to see the depiction of how they strapped them onto the camel.

I'm going to save the book and see if I can get Google to translate it for me.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Yvonne G said:


> Thanks for sharing "The Crying Tortoise". I wish I could read French. Was interesting to see the depiction of how they strapped them onto the camel.
> 
> I'm going to save the book and see if I can get Google to translate it for me.




OR alternatively you can read the English in the pdf. It's in both English and French. The predominate language (by placement and type) for the text and contents is French, but all content is in English too. Glass half empty today Yvonne? Feel the love, everyone loves you.


----------



## Yvonne G

Are you sure? It's so tiny, but I could swear I only saw French.


----------



## Yvonne G

Nevermind. I see it now. The second paragraph under each French paragraph is in English. I've not been able to figure out how to enlarge it though. I've saved it to "my documents" but it's still too small. Maybe I can manipulate the text through Word. I'll try that.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Will said:


> It looks like I can only upload 5 image pages at a time as pdf, which are two book pages per pdf page, which is really ten book pages of content. Blah blah here is the first installment.


I'm not sure why but section-group of pages 5 is to big still. I'll try again and make it 5A and 5B so that the sequence is somewhat kept.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Will said:


> I'm not sure why but section-group of pages 5 is to big still. I'll try again and make it 5A and 5B so that the sequence is somewhat kept.


Maybe as some of these illustrations were color, it took more KB's per page. TCT10 is the centerfold map for the journal.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Yesterday I thought I'd sit and watch the Manouria eat while I spoke with my Dad for father's day. I had considered going over to AZ, but the heat, we had 90F in Carlsbad, and he reported over 110F there. So My thought was he ought to come here and enjoy the ocean breeze. 

So anyway I put out some two pounds of chopped opuntia, Several "Butts" from Escarole heads, two pounds of Zucchini and about two pounds of butternut squash, all chopped to be two hard to be picky. I figured I'd snap a photo. 

I ended up talking with my Dad for about an hour (56 minutes actually) and in the time the three Manouria left not even a scrap a box turtle could get. They were so loud that my Dad asked what was that sound? I had to tell him some prehistoric beasts landed in my backyard and were tearing cactus and squash limb to limb as they feasted in the unusual heat of the day.

You have to understand when they eat there are many grunting and farting sounds, as they push all that produce down some air gets caught up in the process and the burp it back up, only it sounds like gas coming out of the south end or a north facing cow.

I looked the eggs over closely yesterday and determined I need to figure out where my fiber optic light is so I can candle them. None look like they are bad, the shells have chalked over, but this is my first rodeo with these eggs. I consider maybe Darth may not have hit the that specific time and place, but then why would Medea lay while Phae is still actively courting Darth, while Medea stays away. Medea was actually mounting Phae, so I figure they all know she wants to have eggs too.

It struck me yesterday as well as I was on the phone with Dad and watched the tortoise antics, Darth, you couldn't tell he was a cripple a little over a year ago, he walks with full tortoise swagger. It really stands out when you watch him walk and recall he just barley shuffled along 8 months ago. It is an amazing statement about both the skills of the vet and the tenacity of the tortoise.


----------



## Yvonne G

Didn't you say something about a picture? Or did you get involved with the phone conversation and forgot about it?


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Yvonne G said:


> Didn't you say something about a picture? Or did you get involved with the phone conversation and forgot about it?



I am not smart enough to talk on the phone and use the camera feature at the same time, so they ate it all in less than 56 minutes, no image to share.


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## Anyfoot

No need for the photo, that 4th paragraph had me in stitches.


----------



## DawnH

Will said:


> I'm not sure why but section-group of pages 5 is to big still. I'll try again and make it 5A and 5B so that the sequence is somewhat kept.



Oh my gosh, THANK YOU for this!!! I am so excited, just downloaded and saved all the files and I CANNOT wait to read it!! Thank you, thank you Will!!!


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## Kapidolo Farms

My workplace Superior is a Comma Con mega fan. He came back from this years event with this t-shirt. Had he been a a peer I might have had to wrestle it off him. So I satisfied myself with a quicky camera phone capture, better than a Pokemon, I don't feel compelled to get 'em all. I'm good with this one.


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> View attachment 182499
> 
> 
> My workplace Superior is a Comma Con mega fan. He came back from this years event with this t-shirt. Had he been a a peer I might have had to wrestle it off him. So I satisfied myself with a quicky camera phone capture, better than a Pokemon, I don't feel compelled to get 'em all. I'm good with this one.


Had to Google Comma Con. Never heard of it. I can see why your superior is a fan. Google it then look at images. 
Dont talk to me about Pokemon.  , newest fad, find virtual Pokemon, even when we were sat in bars at night on hols in Majorca last week my kids were searching for Pokemon, yeah, there's one behind a tree on hole number 9 of the 'Tropicana cocktails bars crazy golf coarse.


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## Kapidolo Farms

All those big comic action hero movies were born in early Comic Cons. I spelled it phonetically and you still found it in google, that's how crazy it turns San Diego up side down, you can really blow the spelling and Google still finds it.


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> All those big comic action hero movies were born in early Comic Cons. I spelled it phonetically and you still found it in google, that's how crazy it turns San Diego up side down, you can really blow the spelling and Google still finds it.


 That makes sense, Googled it and loads of hot chicks in super hero uniforms came up. 
That's funny.


----------



## Yvonne G

Anyfoot said:


> Had to Google Comma Con. Never heard of it. I can see why your superior is a fan. Google it then look at images.
> Dont talk to me about Pokemon.  , newest fad, find virtual Pokemon, even when we were sat in bars at night on hols in Majorca last week my kids were searching for Pokemon, yeah, there's one behind a tree on hole number 9 of the 'Tropicana cocktails bars crazy golf coarse.



I'm sure he meant Comic-con. It's been going on a couple weeks ago in San Diego.


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## Rzm7810

Anyfoot said:


> That makes sense, Googled it and loads of hot chicks in super hero uniforms came up.
> That's funny.






WHERE ARE THEY !!!


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## Yvonne G

Down boy. You'll have to wait now until 2017.


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## Rzm7810

Yvonne G said:


> Down boy. You'll have to wait now until 2017.


 LOL


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## Kapidolo Farms

Guess the greens in one mix?


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## Kapidolo Farms

Rzm7810 said:


> LOL


One of my colleagues at work brought her daughter in a different costume each of a few days. One of the few times when my first uttered comment was "cuteness overload".


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## Kapidolo Farms

Ben and friends


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> Guess the greens in one mix?
> 
> View attachment 183376


 Think I see nettles in there.


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## Yvonne G

Will said:


> Guess the greens in one mix?
> 
> View attachment 183376



I think I see Mulberry.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Mulberry, Romaine, Escarole, and collards that time. Some italian squash to, but so little I can't see it myself. Just enough for a different flavor that day.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Will said:


> Ben and friends
> 
> View attachment 183478



@deadheadvet brought a serious issue to us and this image represents some little bit of help towards rectifying the situation.


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## Yvonne G

Will said:


> @deadheadvet brought a serious issue to us and this image represents some little bit of help towards rectifying the situation.



What - a ball cap and a 100 dollar bill?


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## deadheadvet

For those not following a previous thread, I will bring the topic to the forefront. USFWS has a new director of the Permits Branch. Tim Van Norman. He has taken the position that only zoos and AZA Facilities should possess a CBW permit. That being said, they have not issued a new permit for Reptiles since he took the position in Sept. 2015. Fish and Wildlife have taken (stolen) 200$ from each applicant since they have no intention of granting the permit application. I have contacted my senator in NC (Thom Tillis) and have encouraged others to do the same in their home state. I am meeting with Phil Goss, President of USARK this week while attending the National Breeder Expo in Daytona to discuss USARK representing us in the matter. Reeks of gov't abuse. Those interested in helping should donate money to USARK. They are one of our true voices in standing up for all Reptile and Amphibian Keeper's rights. Thanks again @Will for the donation


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## Yvonne G

Thank you for the clarification.


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## Kapidolo Farms

It has begun.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Yvonne I did not want to run afoul TFO rules. The cap represents an organization, the man who is not me is a key player in that organization, Ben represents a transfer of persuasion power from me to that organization. Even has made it relevant to people who might like to sell radiated tortoise amoung a few species that are now being impinged upon.


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## Yvonne G

Clear as mud!

Is that Medea's clutch hatching?


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## Kapidolo Farms

Yvonne G said:


> Clear as mud!
> 
> Is that Medea's clutch hatching?



That's my turtle wife!


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## Yvonne G

I guess this indicates that a short time away from the male is beneficial. Congratulations, William!! I'm so happy for you.


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## Yvonne G

Will said:


> Yvonne I did not want to run afoul TFO rules. The cap represents an organization, the man who is not me is a key player in that organization, Ben represents a transfer of persuasion power from me to that organization. Even has made it relevant to people who might like to sell radiated tortoise amoung a few species that are now being impinged upon.



Oh lordy, lordy! Ben Franklin. ***Yvonne slaps her forehead*** I thought the fellow in the picture (who was not you) was named 'Ben'!


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> It has begun.
> 
> View attachment 183726


Cool Will, so happy for you. 
Does this species have an egg tooth?


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## Yvonne G

Yes, it does.


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## Kapidolo Farms

I was dashing off to work this AM and did my morning check of the incubators. One all the way out, and a few dozen others in process. Yvonne I do recall you writing Darth off after the leg issue. Now he is bigger and heavier than both girls. Phae is trolling (enticing for mating) for him daily and all three eat huge amounts of food. Darth is slotted to be in his own area sometime in a few months.

I have found Darth on his back two times and Phae one time. Fortunately the sun cycles through there yard with shade and shadows a great deal of the day. I don't think these guys can right themselves. Risky business.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Soon to be edited out, Donate money to USARK, then lobby for reptile and amphibian keepers interests to keep herps.


----------



## Yvonne G

Will said:


> I was dashing off to work this AM and did my morning check of the incubators. One all the way out, and a few dozen others in process. Yvonne I do recall you writing Darth off after the leg issue. Now he is bigger and heavier than both girls. Phae is trolling (enticing for mating) for him daily and all three eat huge amounts of food. Darth is slotted to be in his own area sometime in a few months.
> 
> I have found Darth on his back two times and Phae one time. Fortunately the sun cycles through there yard with shade and shadows a great deal of the day. I don't think these guys can right themselves. Risky business.



It's Medea that does it. I've had to rescue those same two quite often when they were here, and also, I lost a 45lb'er that was on its back and dead before I discovered it. No, they can't right themselves.


----------



## Yvonne G

Will said:


> Soon to be edited out, Donate money to USARK, then lobby for reptile and amphibian keepers interests to keep herps.





Will: I think you misunderstand. A member can't request funds for themselves or ask donations, etc. but what Evan did in his thread is quite ok. This leaves it up to the member to think for himself whether or not he wants to send $$. I may be wrong, so let's ask @jaizei to help us understand.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Most of the eggs have popped now. I hope all goes well.


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## Yvonne G

OMG!!! That's just so great.

To keep everyone abreast of the situation:

This group of tortoises used to live here with me. I kept them all (one male and two females) together in a large, rain forest-like yard. I got eggs most years, but only one or two of them would hatch. And cracking open the rest of the eggs showed that they weren't fertile.

Several months ago Darth, the male, suffered an injury that required surgery. Will brought Darth home to San Diego because there is a very good tortoise vet in San Diego. And Darth has been there ever since. 

Then Will came up here to pick up some leopard babies and when he went home he took the two females home with him. Darth was VERY happy to see the girls...and the rest is now history!


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> Most of the eggs have popped now. I hope all goes well.
> 
> View attachment 183854


Will, your going to have to remind me. Did you incubate the 7 eggs she dropped aswell, or only the 38 she laid. I notice you have virtually covered the eggs too, is there any particular reason for this? Certainly makes sense to do this. 
To my reckoning these took about 83/84 days to incubate. Is that the norm for these guys?


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> Will, your going to have to remind me. Did you incubate the 7 eggs she dropped aswell, or only the 38 she laid. I notice you have virtually covered the eggs too, is there any particular reason for this? Certainly makes sense to do this.
> To my reckoning these took about 83/84 days to incubate. Is that the norm for these guys?



All the eggs laid by being pooped out collapsed. There are 38 that were put in the incubator, two are sitting on top of the media, and they look funky. I've not fooled with the eggs as they have progressed through incubation.

There are what I think of as conflicting reports about the outcome of different way to incubate these eggs. Sean McKeown, the first, incubated at 83 F and others are saying they incubate at 88F or so to promote females.

I've never been a fan of a stable temp incubation period, I think it may create it's own problems, I do NOT have a specific speculation on what those problems may be. In Grad school, and when I worked at the Philly Zoo I wrote out a few experiments regarding varying the temp during incubation. I was never able to implement any of those ideas for one reason or another. I have had subsequent communication with some people suggesting varying temps over a 24 hour cycle and through a 'season' has yielded high incubation rates. Though that should not be read as a comparative, they are not higher hatching rates than some 2nd clutch with the more simple single temp incubation.

This is what I did with these guys. I started the incubation at 82/83F and over the course of several weeks increased it up to 88F. Think about what happens to a mounds of decaying vegetation, the temp is no doubt somewhat stable day to day (24 hour cycle) , but increase over the season.

I've have failed to communicate some of these subtle things to many, so just stopped trying. Now that the eggs and adults are here, I can implement what I hope are sound ideas to increase outcome to what I think of as a benefit. We will see though, just because the eggs have pipped and a few are out of the egg is a far different thing than active weight gain and growth after the yolk is all used up.

Right now the few that have come fully out of the egg are still in the incubator in a 'brood' box. 

When I set up the incubators I had some time to sort out a few things as well, the advantage of a species that alerts the keeper that eggs are on the way. I put an airstone in the incubators blowing through some water. That way the air turnover was both high and humid. RH stayed at around 84% with sometime going as high as 88% and as low as 76%. I looked every morning and many evenings. 

I also set up three of the ZooMed Reptibators well before so I could play around with setting and have a quicker learning curve. regarding the various trials of one way to have high humidity or another. Most ended up with a sweaty box that seemed like it would promote mold. 

The idea about the airstone is not 'original' Harold Carty did this ( Isaw his place in the 1980's and later) as does Bill McCord. Airflow through is more important than I think is often considered. The ground 'breathes' on a cycle both monthly with lunar gravitational changes and in 24 hours with sun's warmth and night's cool.

On the other side of consideration is that they all may have hatched at a single temp with static air, who knows?


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> All the eggs laid by being pooped out collapsed. There are 38 that were put in the incubator, two are sitting on top of the media, and they look funky. I've not fooled with the eggs as they have progressed through incubation.
> 
> There are what I think of as conflicting reports about the outcome of different way to incubate these eggs. Sean McKeown, the first, incubated at 83 F and others are saying they incubate at 88F or so to promote females.
> 
> I've never been a fan of a stable temp incubation period, I think it may create it's own problems, I do NOT have a specific speculation on what those problems may be. In Grad school, and when I worked at the Philly Zoo I wrote out a few experiments regarding varying the temp during incubation. I was never able to implement any of those ideas for one reason or another. I have had subsequent communication with some people suggesting varying temps over a 24 hour cycle and through a 'season' has yielded high incubation rates. Though that should not be read as a comparative, they are not higher hatching rates than some 2nd clutch with the more simple single temp incubation.
> 
> This is what I did with these guys. I started the incubation at 82/83F and over the course of several weeks increased it up to 88F. Think about what happens to a mounds of decaying vegetation, the temp is no doubt somewhat stable day to day (24 hour cycle) , but increase over the season.
> 
> I've have failed to communicate some of these subtle things to many, so just stopped trying. Now that the eggs and adults are here, I can implement what I hope are sound ideas to increase outcome to what I think of as a benefit. We will see though, just because the eggs have pipped and a few are out of the egg is a far different thing than active weight gain and growth after the yolk is all used up.
> 
> Right now the few that have come fully out of the egg are still in the incubator in a 'brood' box.
> 
> When I set up the incubators I had some time to sort out a few things as well, the advantage of a species that alerts the keeper that eggs are on the way. I put an airstone in the incubators blowing through some water. That way the air turnover was both high and humid. RH stayed at around 84% with sometime going as high as 88% and as low as 76%. I looked every morning and many evenings.
> 
> I also set up three of the ZooMed Reptibators well before so I could play around with setting and have a quicker learning curve. regarding the various trials of one way to have high humidity or another. Most ended up with a sweaty box that seemed like it would promote mold.
> 
> The idea about the airstone is not 'original' Harold Carty did this ( Isaw his place in the 1980's and later) as does Bill McCord. Airflow through is more important than I think is often considered. The ground 'breathes' on a cycle both monthly with lunar gravitational changes and in 24 hours with sun's warmth and night's cool.
> 
> On the other side of consideration is that they all may have hatched at a single temp with static air, who knows?


 Very interesting Will. I'm liking that air stone idea, humidity with air circulation. 
As for stable temps, with what very little experience I've seen with hingeback eggs, you are correct. Out of 31 eggs. 
10 eggs with temperature fluctuations was 100% hatch rate. These 10 ramped up from 24 to 28.5°c as summer kicked in and night time temps dropped. It wasn't a scientific experiment like yours, I just stuck them in the tort room to the peril of the ambient temp of that room. 

Then another 10 eggs at a stable temp in the incubator, only 4 hatched. 

11 eggs now in incubator at a stable temp 2 have gone rotten, 1 gone mouldy, 7 still on the go, 4 of these look no good to me. 
All 31 eggs in exact same substrate. 

Next batch I will go back to variable temps but a more scientific approach, I may copy your method. 

Thanks. When you talk, I learn. Keep talking.


----------



## Anyfoot

@Will. Without going into mega bucks is there an incubator that can be automatically set to drop temps on a timer or will I have to construct something myself. 
The problem I will have is ramping the eggs up gradually in a controlled environment. Because homeana only lay 2 to 4 eggs per clutch I'm thinking I will have to set 3 incubators up at 24, 26 and 28.5°c. The 3rd incubator at 28.5°c would also take a night time drop on temps. This way i could have them in incubator 1 and 2 for lets say 4wks each one then into the 3rd and final incubator. I can't just use 1 incubator because I'll never know when the next clutch will be laid.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> @Will. Without going into mega bucks is there an incubator that can be automatically set to drop temps on a timer or will I have to construct something myself.
> The problem I will have is ramping the eggs up gradually in a controlled environment. Because homeana only lay 2 to 4 eggs per clutch I'm thinking I will have to set 3 incubators up at 24, 26 and 28.5°c. The 3rd incubator at 28.5°c would also take a night time drop on temps. This way i could have them in incubator 1 and 2 for lets say 4wks each one then into the 3rd and final incubator. I can't just use 1 incubator because I'll never know when the next clutch will be laid.




The multiple incubator system is what I have seen at the local zoo. Reptile Basics sells a temp controller with a night time drop feature. I have to figure there might be a similar device available in the UK or Germany at least.

There is another simple way to do it - have two heating devices in an incubator, one set on a timer for day time and at the high temp, the other on 24 hours/day but set at the low temp. This way when the timer shuts down the day time high temp, the temp will fall until the 24/day heater kicks in. Still something I think you would need to make for yourself.

I used this system to heat a whole room for reptiles many years ago.


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> The multiple incubator system is what I have seen at the local zoo. Reptile Basics sells a temp controller with a night time drop feature. I have to figure there might be a similar device available in the UK or Germany at least.
> 
> There is another simple way to do it - have two heating devices in an incubator, one set on a timer for day time and at the high temp, the other on 24 hours/day but set at the low temp. This way when the timer shuts down the day time high temp, the temp will fall until the 24/day heater kicks in. Still something I think you would need to make for yourself.
> 
> I used this system to heat a whole room for reptiles many years ago.


Problem solved. That's the way I'll do it. Cheers.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Here is an image that captures some fresh neonates pipping eggs, and my airstone.


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> Here is an image that captures some fresh neonates pipping eggs, and my airstone.


 Are they all split free up to now?


----------



## Anyfoot

Your method(more natural method) has got me thinking how nature deals with the male to female ratio. 
I'm not sure if this knowledge is known yet but I'll ask anyway. 

Because in nature temps fluctuate when is temperature sexing determined? 
Is it a case of pot luck when the temps coincide with the critical development stage of the embryo on every clutch. 
Or is it determined throughout the laying season. For example my homeana lay upto 3 clutches over a period of 3 months. Each clutch can take up to 4 months to hatch(from what I've seen up to now). This means from laying of the 1st and hatching of the 3rd clutch can cover a 7 month period. Is it a case of in the wild as they lay the 1st clutch the local climate is at its warmest giving higher female ratio then as the last clutch develops towards the end of the season and the climate is cooling off a bit it gives a higher male ratio.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

I forget the specifics of the study, but there is a time point i the development when sex is determined and before ad after have no bearing, at least for the species studied. Sex varies for where in a natural nest the eggs sat, Some nest are laid in areas with more shade than others, different kinds of sand and soil transmit heat differently. Chelonias have survived at least two mass extinction events and many drastic climate cycles. I think the failing is people like to eat them.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Another guess the salad. This image is like the last one, but now not just for pancakes, leos, and Egyptians which already got the leafy greens. This has now been made interesting for hingebacks, Forstens and Manouria - oh my. Three kinds of yellow/oranges added and also virtually invisible, I'll just give it up, one mashed up banana for stickyness so the dried mulberry leaves stick to everything else.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> That makes sense, Googled it and loads of hot chicks in super hero uniforms came up.
> That's funny.


Loads of hot chicks


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> Another guess the salad. This image is like the last one, but now not just for pancakes, leos, and Egyptians which already got the leafy greens. This has now been made interesting for hingebacks, Forstens and Manouria - oh my. Three kinds of yellow/oranges added and also virtually invisible, I'll just give it up, one mashed up banana for stickyness so the dried mulberry leaves stick to everything else.


 Squash, rocket,romaine lettuce, spring greens, maybe spinach.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> Squash, rocket,romaine lettuce, spring greens, maybe spinach.


Wow, yeah, Spring mix that has some spinach, rocket (arugula), romaine, dried bits of mulberry leaves, collards, and the then yellows/oranges include butternut squash, yellow summer squash (yellow zucchini), and sweet potato. I got a hand crank vegetable shredder and it has a potato chip blade, so the yellow/oranges were cut up with that, they fluff in with the greens real well. I added a couple tablespoons of Vionate today for all, and the sub-portion for the neonate M.e.p.'s had some moistened aquatic turtle food mixed in. I added many hundred isopods (some are left) into the neonate M.e.p. enclosure as well as some red earthworms (all of which are gone).

Many of those M.e.p. neonates had their shells somewhat twisted up from the half hatched position they sit in as their yolk was absorbed. All straightened out now. Three have extra vertebral scutes or split scutes, all the other (many) have normal carapace scute arrangements. They are all getting that predatory cat look to their little faces too. Leo neonates are puppy cute, the M.e.p. are maybe badger cute babies. Hahahahahlolololo


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> Wow, yeah, Spring mix that has some spinach, rocket (arugula), romaine, dried bits of mulberry leaves, collards, and the then yellows/oranges include butternut squash, yellow summer squash (yellow zucchini), and sweet potato. I got a hand crank vegetable shredder and it has a potato chip blade, so the yellow/oranges were cut up with that, they fluff in with the greens real well. I added a couple tablespoons of Vionate today for all, and the sub-portion for the neonate M.e.p.'s had some moistened aquatic turtle food mixed in. I added many hundred isopods (some are left) into the neonate M.e.p. enclosure as well as some red earthworms (all of which are gone).
> 
> Many of those M.e.p. neonates had their shells somewhat twisted up from the half hatched position they sit in as their yolk was absorbed. All straightened out now. Three have extra vertebral scutes or split scutes, all the other (many) have normal carapace scute arrangements. They are all getting that predatory cat look to their little faces too. Leo neonates are puppy cute, the M.e.p. are maybe badger cute babies. Hahahahahlolololo


 I'll have to have go at this for my hinges. I've never fed squash or sweet potato. I fed pumpkin before but not squash. Mmm just noticed some butternut squash and sweet potatoes in the veg rack. I'll mix some up now. My adult hinges seem to feed late on. Like 9pm onwards. 
Are you keeping any of those M.e.p neonates? 

Btw. 3 of my hinge eggs exploded, the ones I put straight into the incubator at 28/29°c. Didn't even chaulk.


----------



## Anyfoot

Butternut squash, sweet potato, romaine, spring greens, dandilion and a touch of pineapple. All grated in. 
See how this goes.


----------



## Anyfoot

Mmmm, some interest there already. Let's see if they eat around the foliage. 
Maybe just natural inquisitiveness though.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Pineapple, interesting idea, smell does drive much food interest. I've tried Jack Fruit (not Durian) and that seemed to make no difference. Papaya always scream "TORTOISE FOOD" somehow. Great images. I hope my spekii will do more than eat, $hit, and mate.

Reminds me of the joke about the Panda that stepped into a bar, ordered the 'blue plate' special, then upon exiting shot an inbound patron. The Panda showed the police his excuse in a natural history book when he said, "look it says so right here 'Panda - eats, shoots, and leaves'". Hahahahah


----------



## Anyfoot

They seem to favor what we Brits consider the more exotic fruits. Pineapple, mango and papaya. They love tangerines too, but ive never fed to hatchlings and only once or twice a month to adults.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> I'll have to have go at this for my hinges. I've never fed squash or sweet potato. I fed pumpkin before but not squash. Mmm just noticed some butternut squash and sweet potatoes in the veg rack. I'll mix some up now. My adult hinges seem to feed late on. Like 9pm onwards.
> Are you keeping any of those M.e.p neonates?
> 
> Btw. 3 of my hinge eggs exploded, the ones I put straight into the incubator at 28/29°c. Didn't even chaulk.




I'm keeping all of them for at least several months to 4 inches in length, which comes last. I'll PIT tag them put the number on-line with the stud-booked registered parents and then any one any where can look the number up and see their appellation, including the current studbook keeper, who at that point becomes moot. Tired of dealing with it, but like the information it provides. These guys are F1 and to me that makes them a bit more important than a "flipped" tortoise for those who trade in miss-information based animals.


----------



## Anyfoot

@Will. Need to pick your brains again. I'm assuming anything goes in this thread seen as none of it lives up to the thread title. 

What is a diapause and its purpose. I'm not fully understanding it. 
I am under the impression its a cool period within an incubation time. My hinges are said to require a diapause before incubation. 
But surely if a female was to lay let's say 3 clutches over a 3 month period then at least 1 clutch would not endure the cool diapause period. 
Trying to figure out if my eggs that blew were due to no diapause period or no night time drop. I need a better understanding of what a diapause period does to the egg, I'm sort of thinking how can the 'diapause' be consistent in the wild. 

If a clutch is laid and this first clutch goes through a 4wk cool diapause period then comes the warmer weather and a 2nd clutch is laid at the end of that 4 wks the 2nd clutch is laid in the warmer weather with no diapause. 
I'm thinking it's the night lows that's playing a bigger part. 
HELP.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

An sincere question is nudity. I wrote a pretty full explaination about diapause here on TFO somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Will said:


> An sincere question is nudity. I wrote a pretty full explaination about diapause here on TFO somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.


http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/diapause-explained.100188/

There was at least one study I read regarding three stripe mud turtles where within one population single clutch females laid consistently year to year as one of three strategies, early spring, late spring, and late summer, all resulting is very variable emergence of neonates. The potential benefit is that predators have no way to correlate anything to an abundance of baby turtles as food. This is quite the opposite of the timed emergence of 1000's of sea turtles which overwhelm predators.

It is ultimately the stochastic attempt to survive with a net of strategies, and what we see are the winning ones, modified some little bit with each cohort.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> They seem to favor what we Brits consider the more exotic fruits. Pineapple, mango and papaya. They love tangerines too, but ive never fed to hatchlings and only once or twice a month to adults.


My adult Manouria browse the low fruit on my lemon tree and eat was falls to the ground.


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> My adult Manouria browse the low fruit on my lemon tree and eat was falls to the ground.


Never tried lemon, but I will do.


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## Kapidolo Farms

The tally of eggs out of Medea's 2016 reproductive adventure.

Four eggs pre nest (4), Three eggs during nesting (3), (46 or 47 seen in the radiograph at the vet's), 38 eggs laid with oxytocin induction, a few more found dribbled out after oxytocin induction. 

7 eggs before or during nesting and 46/47 in radiograph = 53/54 eggs total, unless I missed some pre radiograph eggs, which would be a higher count.

Only the 38 eggs laid with induction did not collapse during incubation. 

24 eggs hatched, two neonates died in the brood box, 22 are now eating and scrambling around in an enclosure.

Of the 12 eggs that failed to hatch four (4) showed no early development as far as I can determine with simple dissection, eight (8) had early death embryos (very small semi developed tortoises).

I did not mark the eggs for their progression in being laid during oxytocin induction. Many eggs had several calcium layers that exfoliated. The guys that died in the egg had this too, but most (not all) did not exfoliate any layers of calcium, maybe they died due to poor gas exchange of water exchange during development, Just a guess on that. What complicates this guess is that some that did hatch also had layers of shell, and are doing okay even though those layers did not exfoliate.

In a few months when they are bigger, or when they reach about four inches I'll PIT tag them all and post those numbers here and on free international PIT tag registries for however long those web sites and/or the internet lasts.

Medea and Darth are both wild caught tortoises with a great many shared phenotypical traits that are not shared by Phae who was bred at the Honolulu Zoo in 1983. Medea and Phae are the adult females, Darth is the male.

Medea and Darth's offspring are F1 captive bred and so are a good contribution to the North American Studbook process. I'll refer the Studbook keeper to these stats and from here they can either enter them or not. 

As a past Studbook Keeper I am okay with describing many studbook keepers as petulant. It's not that damn hard to keep and maintain a studbook for chelonians. Imagine trying to do one for so many other much more promiscuous animals and all of a sudden any chelonian is a snap easy studbook to keep. 

Hatch dates ran 14/15 August 2016 through to today when I examined the unhatched eggs. Last 'doer' hatched 24 August 2016. So now we all know . . .


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> The tally of eggs out of Medea's 2016 reproductive adventure.
> 
> Four eggs pre nest (4), Three eggs during nesting (3), (46 or 47 seen in the radiograph at the vet's), 38 eggs laid with oxytocin induction, a few more found dribbled out after oxytocin induction.
> 
> 7 eggs before or during nesting and 46/47 in radiograph = 53/54 eggs total, unless I missed some pre radiograph eggs, which would be a higher count.
> 
> Only the 38 eggs laid with induction did not collapse during incubation.
> 
> 24 eggs hatched, two neonates died in the brood box, 22 are now eating and scrambling around in an enclosure.
> 
> Of the 12 eggs that failed to hatch four (4) showed no early development as far as I can determine with simple dissection, eight (8) had early death embryos (very small semi developed tortoises).
> 
> I did not mark the eggs for their progression in being laid during oxytocin induction. Many eggs had several calcium layers that exfoliated. The guys that died in the egg had this too, but most (not all) did not exfoliate any layers of calcium, maybe they died due to poor gas exchange of water exchange during development, Just a guess on that. What complicates this guess is that some that did hatch also had layers of shell, and are doing okay even though those layers did not exfoliate.
> 
> In a few months when they are bigger, or when they reach about four inches I'll PIT tag them all and post those numbers here and on free international PIT tag registries for however long those web sites and/or the internet lasts.
> 
> Medea and Darth are both wild caught tortoises with a great many shared phenotypical traits that are not shared by Phae who was bred at the Honolulu Zoo in 1983. Medea and Phae are the adult females, Darth is the male.
> 
> Medea and Darth's offspring are F1 captive bred and so are a good contribution to the North American Studbook process. I'll refer the Studbook keeper to these stats and from here they can either enter them or not.
> 
> As a past Studbook Keeper I am okay with describing many studbook keepers as petulant. It's not that damn hard to keep and maintain a studbook for chelonians. Imagine trying to do one for so many other much more promiscuous animals and all of a sudden any chelonian is a snap easy studbook to keep.
> 
> Hatch dates ran 14/15 August 2016 through to today when I examined the unhatched eggs. Last 'doer' hatched 24 August 2016. So now we all know . . .


 Sounds good Will. What sort of size would these guys have to reach before they can be sexed. Be interesting to see what sort of ratio you ended up with. 
Any photos available?


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> Sounds good Will. What sort of size would these guys have to reach before they can be sexed. Be interesting to see what sort of ratio you ended up with.
> Any photos available?


Have you ever seen bits and pieces of a movie over several showings, maybe not even in time order of the movie, but not seen the whole movie straight through? That's what I got going on here. I've read most of the literature that is in English, and spoken with many folks both living and now passed regarding the natural history of this as well as many other species of animals with an emphasis on chelonians. That has not left me shorthanded. This one year I have produced near or more hatchlings than these had produced in the previous 20 + years, so the book knowledge has not hurt, my own listening skills of others' experience is a boost as well. If I learned one thing from my father it is to be able to actually listen.

Just the way I incubated the eggs was novel based on what is written and what I have heard from others. No telling if it was harmful or helpful?? I could have done a much better job documenting many seemingly silly bits of information to better know so much.

Anyhow - I don't know at what size I will be able to discern males from females. There is quite a bit of size and weight difference among the hatchlings, now neonates. Some are much more aggressive feeders than others based on my limited time to watch them. That is some run to the new pile of food while others throat pump air, then slowly amble on over to eat. Some go right for the yellow/orange foods, some for the pellets, and some are still occupied with a constant almost ambush depredation on isopods.

The mulberry angel visited again recently and so I put many leaves in, last week and I can here the eating that as well. I know well the benefit of somewhat crowded enclosures for new hatched chelonians, one that eats seemingly inspires another to do so. As the more bold eaters start to prevail, they are going to be separated out into more enclosures until I have five or six per enclosure. I'm a bit worried they may decide to start trying to eat each other, I at one time bred Florida Box turtles and those little neonates will sooner eat an enclosure mate than an over abundance of food.

I will probably hold back a few that are the ends of the bell curve on my husbandry for growth, and see what sex distribution may come along.


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> Have you ever seen bits and pieces of a movie over several showings, maybe not even in time order of the movie, but not seen the whole movie straight through? That's what I got going on here. I've read most of the literature that is in English, and spoken with many folks both living and now passed regarding the natural history of this as well as many other species of animals with an emphasis on chelonians. That has not left me shorthanded. This one year I have produced near or more hatchlings than these had produced in the previous 20 + years, so the book knowledge has not hurt, my own listening skills of others' experience is a boost as well. If I learned one thing from my father it is to be able to actually listen.
> 
> Just the way I incubated the eggs was novel based on what is written and what I have heard from others. No telling if it was harmful or helpful?? I could have done a much better job documenting many seemingly silly bits of information to better know so much.
> 
> Anyhow - I don't know at what size I will be able to discern males from females. There is quite a bit of size and weight difference among the hatchlings, now neonates. Some are much more aggressive feeders than others based on my limited time to watch them. That is some run to the new pile of food while others throat pump air, then slowly amble on over to eat. Some go right for the yellow/orange foods, some for the pellets, and some are still occupied with a constant almost ambush depredation on isopods.
> 
> The mulberry angel visited again recently and so I put many leaves in, last week and I can here the eating that as well. I know well the benefit of somewhat crowded enclosures for new hatched chelonians, one that eats seemingly inspires another to do so. As the more bold eaters start to prevail, they are going to be separated out into more enclosures until I have five or six per enclosure. I'm a bit worried they may decide to start trying to eat each other, I at one time bred Florida Box turtles and those little neonates will sooner eat an enclosure mate than an over abundance of food.
> 
> I will probably hold back a few that are the ends of the bell curve on my husbandry for growth, and see what sex distribution may come along.


 I wise man once told me when you want to learn, ask a question then shut up and listen. More often than not the person answering the question(if really knowledgeable) will fill you with more info than you expected, no point interrupting them when you are learning. Let them speak. IT WORKS. 

That bit about box turtles is scary, I'll keep an eye on these hinges because they can be feisty at times. 

Thanks for the information Will. I've learnt a lot from this experience of yours.


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## Anyfoot

@Will. 

I'll just briefly jog your memory, 1st 10 hingeback hatchlings had a diapause before incubation and night time lows during incubation. 
2nd 10(same parents) went straight into the incubator with no diapause and no night time drops, nothing but complications. 
3 eggs blew.

1 egg produced twins which 1 of them was dead as the other pipped then that one died.

4 eggs hatched with weights as low as 15g, 3 of these are not thriving anywhere near as well as the 1 and the first 10 hatchlings. 

1 egg still in incubation and way over due. 

1 egg just split and gave of the worst smell I've ever endured. This was a partially developed neonate. Photos are below, may seem grose but you may be able to shed some light on why a pause in development happens. 
First thing I'm going to do next is make an incubator like yours with nightime drops and have no diapause. Hopefully this will tell me what's most important, diapause or temp drop offs(maybe it's both).


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## Kapidolo Farms

Weekend quick post. Manouria food fest.


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> Weekend quick post. Manouria food fest.


It's an 'all you can eat buffet'. Excellent photos. Really serrated, didn't expect that.


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## Yvonne G

...a murder of crows...a herd of elephants...a rumble of Dodges...a buffet of Manouria babies!!!


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## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> It's an 'all you can eat buffet'. Excellent photos. Really serrated, didn't expect that.


And those serration shred rubber gloves as well, they are sharp. Response to hinge-back interest tomorrow.

That much food a day, or I worry they will start in on each other, the split up is today.


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> And those serration shred rubber gloves as well, they are sharp. Response to hinge-back interest tomorrow.
> 
> That much food a day, or I worry they will start in on each other, the split up is today.


Really, they will eat all that. Got me paranoid I'm not feeding enough now. 
Is it because the manouria are a ferocious species or do you apply that method to all species?


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## MichaelaW

Anyfoot said:


> Really, they will eat all that. Got me paranoid I'm not feeding enough now.
> Is it because the manouria are a ferocious species or do you apply that method to all species?


I have the _emys_ and they are incredibly social, even during feeding.


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## Kapidolo Farms

So why a pause helps, hugh? I can repeat some of what Iv'e read and offer speculation. All depend on your agreement that evolution is not a result but a process.

Nature throws many small changes at the world as it is at that moment, and some of those small changes make a difference. The theory is those small changes or differences collect over time and result in the aggregation of 'winner' small changes.

So there are no doubt some K.h. eggs that will do well to start incubating and run straight through to hatching, but you don't seem to have those. You have the ones that work with some undefined interruptions (I take it you will try a few things and see which matters most).

One experiment that my sister consulted on (she works with medical isotopes for use in human health therapies and assured me I would not glow if I did this), but the vets at the Philly Zoo would not sign off on, was to incubate eggs side by side of pancake tortoises, one set that had a night time drop and another that did not. The incubators would be in larger enclosures with gas concentration monitors. The oxygen would be radio isotope labeled, and at some point the some eggs would be sacrificed to see if the night time drop eggs had a different accumulation od oxygen isotope after the same number of 'incubator days'. Also would night time drop eggs incubate at a different average number of days, and what would be the robustness of those neonates. "My" idea is that the change in temperature makes the eggs respire, more than at a stable temperature. Respiration is the result of metabolic processes in the egg. It would potentially do two things along two paths. Just pumping the air in and out might accelerate development, and it might also give rest to some processes. This as a thought experiment may be even more complex than narrated, but at least two factors could explain any differences in the observable parameters I hoped to look for. Days to emergence, and robustness. At the time we were generating many pancake tortoises with a high hatch rate.

It is my extreme speculation that pancakes have at least two potential egg incubation optimizations. One with diapause of a cool period and one without, based on the somewhat strange distribution they have in the wild.

As far as cool periods with no apparent development and active development periods, well I don't think that absolutely no development occurs during a cool period. I have not any data to back this up, it is speculation. I think some low temperature mechanisms need to set the egg up for high temperature development. 

Another species another story, Pyxis planicauda need a cool period for incubation followed by a warm period. First success used a warm, then cool, then warm again period, which follows the natural (in-situ) temp cycle closely. Some keepers tried putting eggs directly into a cool cycle then the warm and still had success. Placed right into a warm cycle and they had very poor success. So in evolutionary time (history) eggs that wintered over did better, to such an extent that straight warm cycle eggs won. There is only so much 'space' for P.p. that the carrying capacity of the forest where they live got filled up with warm, cool, warm reproducers. Look like that first warm is not super critical, and may even allow for further change where females lay eggs towards the end of the cool cycle (just poking at some imaginative future) so they eggs get a few weeks of cool then develop. Why, less time as an egg means less depredation, means less a million other things that can happen to an egg just sitting there. However maybe females can't get warm enough to do this cool cycle egg laying? 

Understanding evolution is similar to crime scene investigation, we are looking after the fact, and trying to come up with a compelling explanation. We don't know the age of the scene or what factors made things happen that are no longer apparent or present. Much explanation in evolution seems to be speculative. But less and less as more bits of data are gathered and reconciled. 

Just observing the things is a first big step, then sorting out what they accomplish as a today need or some vestige of a yesterday need is not so easy.

Your proposed experiment of incubating eggs with just a day night temp change and with a cool down as separate factors will take a few years and then the interpretation of your results would be difficult. That you might parse out one of these variables as being more critical, or that they work best in conjunction is cool. I would be whelmed just know that it worked and more eggs hatched.


----------



## Anyfoot

Thanks, very interesting. I'll read that again tomorrow when I'm not as tired.


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> So why a pause helps, hugh? I can repeat some of what Iv'e read and offer speculation. All depend on your agreement that evolution is not a result but a process.
> 
> Nature throws many small changes at the world as it is at that moment, and some of those small changes make a difference. The theory is those small changes or differences collect over time and result in the aggregation of 'winner' small changes.
> 
> So there are no doubt some K.h. eggs that will do well to start incubating and run straight through to hatching, but you don't seem to have those. You have the ones that work with some undefined interruptions (I take it you will try a few things and see which matters most).
> 
> One experiment that my sister consulted on (she works with medical isotopes for use in human health therapies and assured me I would not glow if I did this), but the vets at the Philly Zoo would not sign off on, was to incubate eggs side by side of pancake tortoises, one set that had a night time drop and another that did not. The incubators would be in larger enclosures with gas concentration monitors. The oxygen would be radio isotope labeled, and at some point the some eggs would be sacrificed to see if the night time drop eggs had a different accumulation od oxygen isotope after the same number of 'incubator days'. Also would night time drop eggs incubate at a different average number of days, and what would be the robustness of those neonates. "My" idea is that the change in temperature makes the eggs respire, more than at a stable temperature. Respiration is the result of metabolic processes in the egg. It would potentially do two things along two paths. Just pumping the air in and out might accelerate development, and it might also give rest to some processes. This as a thought experiment may be even more complex than narrated, but at least two factors could explain any differences in the observable parameters I hoped to look for. Days to emergence, and robustness. At the time we were generating many pancake tortoises with a high hatch rate.
> 
> It is my extreme speculation that pancakes have at least two potential egg incubation optimizations. One with diapause of a cool period and one without, based on the somewhat strange distribution they have in the wild.
> 
> As far as cool periods with no apparent development and active development periods, well I don't think that absolutely no development occurs during a cool period. I have not any data to back this up, it is speculation. I think some low temperature mechanisms need to set the egg up for high temperature development.
> 
> Another species another story, Pyxis planicauda need a cool period for incubation followed by a warm period. First success used a warm, then cool, then warm again period, which follows the natural (in-situ) temp cycle closely. Some keepers tried putting eggs directly into a cool cycle then the warm and still had success. Placed right into a warm cycle and they had very poor success. So in evolutionary time (history) eggs that wintered over did better, to such an extent that straight warm cycle eggs won. There is only so much 'space' for P.p. that the carrying capacity of the forest where they live got filled up with warm, cool, warm reproducers. Look like that first warm is not super critical, and may even allow for further change where females lay eggs towards the end of the cool cycle (just poking at some imaginative future) so they eggs get a few weeks of cool then develop. Why, less time as an egg means less depredation, means less a million other things that can happen to an egg just sitting there. However maybe females can't get warm enough to do this cool cycle egg laying?
> 
> Understanding evolution is similar to crime scene investigation, we are looking after the fact, and trying to come up with a compelling explanation. We don't know the age of the scene or what factors made things happen that are no longer apparent or present. Much explanation in evolution seems to be speculative. But less and less as more bits of data are gathered and reconciled.
> 
> Just observing the things is a first big step, then sorting out what they accomplish as a today need or some vestige of a yesterday need is not so easy.
> 
> Your proposed experiment of incubating eggs with just a day night temp change and with a cool down as separate factors will take a few years and then the interpretation of your results would be difficult. That you might parse out one of these variables as being more critical, or that they work best in conjunction is cool. I would be whelmed just know that it worked and more eggs hatched.


Just re-read with a fresh mind. Full of info and well written. 
I agree, it's logical that ' warm, cool, warm would have similar success rate as cool, warm. The first warm period is just allowing for a larger hatching season but both give that crucial cool period. 
I'd never thought of the cool periods allowing breathing and oxygen exchange within the egg. Do you think that a night time drop also achieves the same as an actual prolonged cool diapause? So with nightime lows are we allowing the breathing in smaller amounts but more often. 
The one thing I never understood until now is why a diapause, something must be happening during these cooler periods, or what's the point, and there must be a point because pyxis require the cool period for success, this in itself proves there is development in cool period. 

Many thoughts will arise for me after reading this, got 2 straight away. 
When the eggs are freshly laid are they oxygen rich or does the cool period or night lows finish the actual process of the egg to be successful, then I think, why some species and not others for cool periods, do redfoots for example lay eggs with high oxygen levels and night lows will suffice to make viable eggs. 
On and on, deeper and deeper the thought go. It's interesting though, something else to focus on in life. 

Thanks.


----------



## Anyfoot

Do we know if all tort eggs are the same when it comes to how porous the egg shells are? 
Do some eggs exchange air easier than others due to egg shell density? 

Within the same species but from different localities are for example, are the locale that are in the more constant warm/humid climate naturally deficient of calcium resulting in more porous eggs which helps combat the weak air exchange. 

On and on.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> Do we know if all tort eggs are the same when it comes to how porous the egg shells are?
> Do some eggs exchange air easier than others due to egg shell density?
> 
> Within the same species but from different localities are for example, are the locale that are in the more constant warm/humid climate naturally deficient of calcium resulting in more porous eggs which helps combat the weak air exchange.
> 
> On and on.


There are many common aspects of eggs, but they are different species to species, from different parts of a range, and also diet. Diet calcium source makes for different calcium structure in the shell. Egg retention results in more layers of calcium being applied to the egg. 
I don't know of a study that has looked at natural egg clines along the range of any species, but that would be an interesting detail to look at. Maybe for Cal Desert tortoises when they were all one species might show something. I am pretty sure they along with Gopher tortoises probably amount to the most literature on natural history.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Will said:


> I'm keeping all of them for at least several months to 4 inches in length, which comes last. I'll PIT tag them put the number on-line with the stud-booked registered parents and then any one any where can look the number up and see their appellation, including the current studbook keeper, who at that point becomes moot. Tired of dealing with it, but like the information it provides. These guys are F1 and to me that makes them a bit more important than a "flipped" tortoise for those who trade in miss-information based animals.



@David Mount , for some reason I am not able to reply to your PM, some button may need to be switched?

Anyways, I'll sell some when they get big enough to PIT tag. I fear some that were sold in the past have been 're-identified' for profit based disbursement of mis-information. I don't want to contribute to that. These are F1 from known stud-booked WC adults. I'd like that history to follow them.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

On another note, I was away for a week vacationing, sorry of it seems like I gave a deaf ear to anyone. I'm very lucky to have found a local person to take care of my animals while I was away. I'll be replying to inquiries and shipping tortoises again right away.


----------



## Yvonne G

Anyfoot said:


> Do we know if all tort eggs are the same when it comes to how porous the egg shells are?
> Do some eggs exchange air easier than others due to egg shell density?
> 
> Within the same species but from different localities are for example, are the locale that are in the more constant warm/humid climate naturally deficient of calcium resulting in more porous eggs which helps combat the weak air exchange.
> 
> On and on.



I saw an interesting story a couple days ago on a national news program. Some students in Japan had hatched chicken eggs in a glass, not in the shell. I've found it on youtube if you're interested:


----------



## Anyfoot

Yvonne G said:


> I saw an interesting story a couple days ago on a national news program. Some students in Japan had hatched chicken eggs in a glass, not in the shell. I've found it on youtube if you're interested:


Looks interesting, not sure if this is the same video that Allegra posted. 
With all the eggs I'm likely to get, I can't incubate them all, just not the market over here. So I would be the ideal candidate to try this rather than bin the eggs. 

@Will
Do tortoises rely on the egg shell to get the carapace shape, or is that formed with vains bridging to the outer most of the yolk?


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> Looks interesting, not sure if this is the same video that Allegra posted.
> With all the eggs I'm likely to get, I can't incubate them all, just not the market over here. So I would be the ideal candidate to try this rather than bin the eggs.
> 
> @Will
> Do tortoises rely on the egg shell to get the carapace shape, or is that formed with vains bridging to the outer most of the yolk?




You are exploring interest that I have not with this question. Michael Ewert and Ytem(?) have done the most with chelonian eggs in English language papers and I don't recall that either did this. So, it makes me wonder if it really would work, or they just didn't get around to doing this, or they did but chose not to publish?

I'm still stuck on "just not the market over here". But if you must, I imagine there would be many scholars that would like to follow-up with you. The interest to watch the development of anything is always interesting.


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> You are exploring interest that I have not with this question. Michael Ewert and Ytem(?) have done the most with chelonian eggs in English language papers and I don't recall that either did this. So, it makes me wonder if it really would work, or they just didn't get around to doing this, or they did but chose not to publish?
> 
> I'm still stuck on "just not the market over here". But if you must, I imagine there would be many scholars that would like to follow-up with you. The interest to watch the development of anything is always interesting.


Will, I meant if I could produce 100 babies I probably couldn't sell 100 babies in the uk.
I may be wrong, not really explored the market to any great extent yet, just the impression I'm getting, we will see when the time comes, Across the channel into Europe is a whole different story. 

Anyway, I'm doing this, the curiosity is killing me. Found a polystyrene box,thermostat and a 21w heat Matt. 
Just knocked up a makeshift incubator, hit a stumbling block because the thermostat isn't working, so that's going back, still under warranty, but it did reach 40°c, so at least its going to work. 
I've not put any air holes in it yet. What do you think, and howmany and where should I put air holes, top and bottom. Any suggestions welcome before I proceed. 

In the video Yvonne linked in, why do you think they where pre-stretching the cling film?


----------



## Yvonne G

Oh boy! an experiment!! I'm not sure whether @Will would like for you to start a thread or keep the experiment here. But I'm terribly interested in watching it.


----------



## Anyfoot

Yvonne G said:


> Oh boy! an experiment!! I'm not sure whether @Will would like for you to start a thread or keep the experiment here. But I'm terribly interested in watching it.


 Regardless Will's input is needed. 
I'll start a thread when I've got everything set with the incubator, the female I have that seems to be produced fertile eggs may be due again soon and today she was gobbling up cuttlebone so that's a good sign.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

You know the whole thing of owning threads makes no sense to me. They are all TFO threads. 

As for air holes, I would put one or two very small ones near the top and several small ones on the bottom, then plug the bottom ones with loose cotton. I am now fixated on using the air stone as a source of air into the incubator. The water will heat to the incubator temp and help stabilize the interior temp., and provide a stream of fresh humid air. If the warmer air rises up that will draft air in from below. I put something over the holes to keep some sort of spastic little flies out.


----------



## Anyfoot

This is a snap shot of the set up in video. 
I'm not understanding some of it. 
What is the benzalkonium chloride solution for? 
Why the distilled water and calcium lactate?


----------



## Anyfoot

Anyfoot said:


> This is a snap shot of the set up in video.
> I'm not understanding some of it.
> What is the benzalkonium chloride solution for?
> Why the distilled water and calcium lactate?
> 
> View attachment 190366


I'm guessing the benzalkonium is keeping the air free of bacteria.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

So here is the whole article, and another regarding exploration of the method with quail eggs. I did not read these yet, okay? I only was able to find these with your assistance by printing that one image.


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> So here is the whole article, and another regarding exploration of the method with quail eggs. I did not read these yet, okay? I only was able to find these with your assistance by printing that one image.


Huh, I couldn't find it, and I tried. Yes I know, the whole research thing.


----------



## Anyfoot

Well Will, I didn't realize there was so much going on in an egg. Very interesting and I have much to learn. I've only read the chick culture, not the quail one(yet).
I certainly have questions, where do I start.
I'm assuming we don't need the 8° tilt and 120° rotation that chicks require.
The calcium lactate compensates for what would normally come from the eggshell, and the distilled water is to drip feed the calcium.
We need to you polymethylpentene not clingfilm because this allows oxygen flow and breathing.
How did they get the pure oxygen in there, I now it's through the pipe, but is it a case of it naturally flows through the pipe or do they have a gadget to force it in at 500ml/h. Does the word aerated suggest its just naturally flowing through the pipe. 
Oxygen was aerated in on day 17, before this period it reduced viability. Where do we start with air flow(day 1)?
Pre-incubation or not. At what stage can we not rotate a Tortoise egg?
Im not fully understanding the chorioallantoic membrane. Does this membrane develope as the embryo starts to grow?
It doesnt say what the benzalkonium solution is for. The water part of this solution is obviously for humidity, but what's the benzalkonium for.(sterilization maybe).

I'll stop there for now.

I've never googled so many words. 

Fascinating stuff.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> Well Will, I didn't realize there was so much going on in an egg. Very interesting and I have much to learn. I've only read the chick culture, not the quail one(yet).
> I certainly have questions, where do I start.
> I'm assuming we don't need the 8° tilt and 120° rotation that chicks require. I agree.
> The calcium lactate compensates for what would normally come from the eggshell, and the distilled water is to drip feed the calcium.
> We need to you polymethylpentene not clingfilm because this allows oxygen flow and breathing.
> How did they get the pure oxygen in there, I now it's through the pipe, but is it a case of it naturally flows through the pipe or do they have a gadget to force it in at 500ml/h.I think you can buy medical grade oxygen at some pharmacies. I use it in anesthesia machines at work, flow rate is not so difficult. But we use very small chambers, the oxygen is a carrier for the chemical that puts the animals under. Does the word aerated suggest its just naturally flowing through the pipe.Maybe an akward translation from Japanese as a first languge?
> Oxygen was aerated in on day 17, before this period it reduced viability. Where do we start with air flow(day 1)? No idea?
> Pre-incubation or not. At what stage can we not rotate a Tortoise egg? I don't know a days allowed period, but less and sooner is better.
> Im not fully understanding the chorioallantoic membrane. Does this membrane develope as the embryo starts to grow?
> It doesnt say what the benzalkonium solution is for. It's botha surfacnt and a biocide. The water part of this solution is obviously for humidity, but what's the benzalkonium for.(sterilization maybe).
> 
> I'll stop there for now.
> 
> I've never googled so many words.
> 
> Fascinating stuff.



On the oxygen flow. A small chamber inside the incubator, where it is just big enough for the egg would work. That way the need for oxygen is reduced and safer, and the incubator is still large and has more plasticity to hold a constant temp.


----------



## Anyfoot

Will,. I've managed to get hold of everything I'm going to need. The only thing I'm not 100% sure of is the oxygen, or rather how do I get it down the tubes of the vessels, baring in mind there could be half a dozen or so vessels. 
Anyway I ran my makeshift incubator to make sure it holds temps ok, and it's perfect. I still haven't put any air holes in the incubator yet, and after about an our I couldn't see through the window due to the humidity(99%). Obviously I can control this with less surface area of water and air holes(I'm thinking of looking for some small simple vents that I can open slightly to control the air and humitiy escaping). 
However, why does the actual incubator have to be humid when inside the vessels will be humid. I'm thinking the vessels are acting like the mini incubators minus the heat supply which comes from the incubator.

Something else I was thinking about was why in the chick experiment when they added oxygen prior to the 17th day it reduced fertility. 
Does this mean when an egg is first layed the eggshell is at it's least porous, then as the embryo develops and absorbs the calcium from the eggshell it becomes more porous allowing the flow of oxygen to pass through the egg? 
Also do you think a Tortoise egg would get less oxygen under the ground than a chick egg under the chicken? Silly question but the answer could lead onto other thoughts.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Moisture on the glass only demonstrates a temp difference between inside and outside and Water comes out of the air because on the difference. It's not a reliable way to observe RH.


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> Moisture on the glass only demonstrates a temp difference between inside and outside and Water comes out of the air because on the difference. It's not a reliable way to observe RH.


My digital read out read 99% on the RH. 
Mmm, I need to find a way to reduce the moisture on the plexiglass so I can observe through it.


----------



## Anyfoot

Nearly got everything I need Will, then it's the waiting game for the lady to lay eggs. Believe it or not the hardest thing to get was plastic cups with lids without a god damn hole in it for a straw. 
Anyway, In this chick experiment they burnt a series of 10 holes in the polymethylpentene for ventilation. Then just 1 hole in the cup for the tube(oxygen in). 
Then because at some point the vains were bright red they forced pure oxygen in to compensate for oxygen starvation. 
What's the point of having 1 hole feeding 10 holes to get oxygen to the embryo. I'm thinking if they had more holes in the cup then oxygen starvation wouldn't have happened.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> Nearly got everything I need Will, then it's the waiting game for the lady to lay eggs. Believe it or not the hardest thing to get was plastic cups with lids without a god damn hole in it for a straw.
> Anyway, In this chick experiment they burnt a series of 10 holes in the polymethylpentene for ventilation. Then just 1 hole in the cup for the tube(oxygen in).
> Then because at some point the vains were bright red they forced pure oxygen in to compensate for oxygen starvation.
> What's the point of having 1 hole feeding 10 holes to get oxygen to the embryo. I'm thinking if they had more holes in the cup then oxygen starvation wouldn't have happened.



It might be about the size of the holes. One large inlet of oxygen and many smaller outlets would assure that the vessels does not become 'pressurized', and that air flow is over the whole area not just a simple in one place and out another, which might not have a good 'mixing' effect.

Like a hose and a sprinkler, but with less pressure build up?

I have to image there was much trial and error, and they only published what worked.


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> It might be about the size of the holes. One large inlet of oxygen and many smaller outlets would assure that the vessels does not become 'pressurized', and that air flow is over the whole area not just a simple in one place and out another, which might not have a good 'mixing' effect.
> 
> Like a hose and a sprinkler, but with less pressure build up?
> 
> I have to image there was much trial and error, and they only published what worked.


Agreed, More holes in the polymethylpentene to reduce pressure but control is achieved via 1 hole. 
I was thinking of doing some vessels exactly as they did and some with more tube inlets. Say 2 and 3 inlets on some vessels.


----------



## Anyfoot

Hi Will. Just been messing around with my set up. I need to make sure I don't do any amateur mistakes with the set up so a few questions I could do with your input on please.

In the chick experiment....

It says 0.01% benzalkonium chloride solution. So in the 40ml solution is that 0.4ml or 0.004ml of BAC50. (is it 1% or 0.01 of a %). The latter seems a very small amount. 

In the processing of the polymethylpentene film it says after I've pre-stretched it to the size and shape of an egg, " The film should then be aspirated using an aspirator equipped with a plastic cup, which has the same diameter as the artificial vessel." What's that mean?( Leave it to relax in a spare cup in air). 

Also, does it really matter what humidity the incubator is at, because the actual vessels will be at 100%(or should be) anyway. 

Will be doing 5 cups, below is just me doing a dummy run to see how heat and humidity settles down. I'll make sure there's no reflections showing in the window when it's set up for the actual experiment.


----------



## Anyfoot

Well Will, the lady dropped a clutch of 9 late last night. When I get home tonight the games shall begin. Hope near on 24hrs after laying isn't too late.


----------



## Anyfoot

Fuming, I just got everything ready, and opened the polymethylpentene that I bought from USA because it's a third of the price that it is over here and it's the wrong s**t. 
I ordered 
12"x12ft transparent,
I got 12"x12" frosted. So size and type totally wrong. I wait for an email response from the supplier. 
Eggs in incubator now. 
Not a happy chappy.


----------



## JoesMum

Anyfoot said:


> Fuming, I just got everything ready, and opened the polymethylpentene that I bought from USA because it's a third of the price that it is over here and it's the wrong s**t.
> I ordered
> 12"x12ft transparent,
> I got 12"x12" frosted. So size and type totally wrong. I wait for an email response from the supplier.
> Eggs in incubator now.
> Not a happy chappy.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

I understand disappointment with the ploy... but nine eggs, that's happy.


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> I understand disappointment with the ploy... but nine eggs, that's happy.


Yep, she's laid 48 eggs in the last 11 months. With the last 9 being 100% success. I have 10 of hers in the window of opportunity plus this latest clutch of 9. 
Bit more good news last night too, one of my other females laid a clutch of 6. First clutch ever, we've found on 3 occasions a couple of random eggs on the surface, I assume some from this female. These 6 eggs were burried perfect next too a palm. 
The experiment can wait for now.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

My wife calls them dinasours. They ate all this and more on a cooler temp day. Medea is getting a headstart.


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> My wife calls them dinasours. They ate all this and more on a cooler temp day. Medea is getting a headstart.


 Look at the scales on those forelimbs, there amazing. That's some serious armour, do these guys have an aggressive nature? 

We're dinosaurs warm or cold blooded or neither?


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> Look at the scales on those forelimbs, there amazing. That's some serious armour, do these guys have an aggressive nature?
> 
> We're dinosaurs warm or cold blooded or neither?


 

If they feel you are there for a pushing contest they will rake those scales on you, but otherwise I'm pretty much just the tree the food drops from. It's that slow silent creep they do, and then you feel the clumsy bite on the back of your leg, that's why she calls them dinosaurs. The hose bib is in the tortoise pen. You can't not pay attention.


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> If they feel you are there for a pushing contest they will rake those scales on you, but otherwise I'm pretty much just the tree the food drops from. It's that slow silent creep they do, and then you feel the clumsy bite on the back of your leg, that's why she calls them dinosaurs. The hose bib is in the tortoise pen. You can't not pay attention.


That's funny.
All our reds bite, it's like a scene from the walking dead when I go into the Tortoise house, coming at me from all directions. 
I used to let them bite me to see if it hurt, one day it did, now I don't.


----------



## MichaelaW

Will said:


> My wife calls them dinasours. They ate all this and more on a cooler temp day. Medea is getting a headstart.
> 
> View attachment 192723


What is today's cuisine?


----------



## Yvonne G

I know the part that makes it look dirty is soaked and smashed alfalfa/Bermuda hay cubes, but the rest ???


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## Kapidolo Farms

It's actually raining today so nothing that can get washed away. Whole heads of romaine, whole summer squash and cucumber. Special for today whole heads of raddichio.


----------



## MichaelaW

Will said:


> It's actually raining today so nothing that can get washed away. Whole heads of romaine, whole summer squash and cucumber. Special for today whole heads of raddichio.


Where do you source all your vegetables?


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

There is a chain called "resturant depot" I was turned on to it by Barry Lambert of spectrumreptiles. They are cash or wholesale. Some of there prices are not so competative. I also swing by any one of three Smart and Final stores where near out of date produce is marked 50% off. And lastly I will go to another chain store "H-mart" where they too offer near out of date or 'damaged' produce for silly low prices. The pellets I get at a tack and feed store.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Yvonne G said:


> I know the part that makes it look dirty is soaked and smashed alfalfa/Bermuda hay cubes, but the rest ???


That 'rest" not sure what you mean. I also added some crushed oyster shell and a little vionate. But it's mostly 'dirty' looking from the cubes. This particular salad had banana in it to help make the moisten mixed cube stick to everything else.


----------



## Yvonne G

Will said:


> That 'rest" not sure what you mean. I also added some crushed oyster shell and a little vionate. But it's mostly 'dirty' looking from the cubes. This particular salad had banana in it to help make the moisten mixed cube stick to everything else.



Someone asked what you were feeding in that picture. All I knew to say was the cubes, the rest of the items I didn't know.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Thanks for fielding questions for me. Opuntia, red cabbage, yellow summer squash, banana, Apple, dragon fruit, cucumbers, romaine butts, oyster shell, vionate. 14 pounds total for breakfast. Dinner was romaine with sticky (has molasses in it) horse pellets.


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## Kapidolo Farms

How I use opuntia for smaller eaters. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...chips-lower-cost-better-functionality.149062/

Fresh or dry, it's a good food item.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

These images taken by a friend document the first Manouria impressa eggs to hatch in captivity. That was 1995, the neonate eating mango was 8 months later in May 1996. I always referred to the breeder as the 'Secret turtle lady of San Jose'. Privacy is important, but so is an accurate awareness of firsts and success.


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> These images taken by a friend document the first Manouria impressa eggs to hatch in captivity. That was 1995, the neonate eating mango was 8 months later in May 1996. I always referred to the breeder as the 'Secret turtle lady of San Jose'. Privacy is important, but so is an accurate awareness of firsts and success.


 I'll bet that day was one of the best days of the secret ladies life. Good stuff.


----------



## Gopherus Guy

Just beautiful!


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Will said:


> How I use opuntia for smaller eaters. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...chips-lower-cost-better-functionality.149062/
> 
> Fresh or dry, it's a good food item.


for comparison http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=572069


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

This paper explains so many things.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

No body seems to have liked the Hardin paper, .


I buy produce from some wholesale outlets for the farm. Restaurant Depot is a great resource. I thought I found a good easy access to organic Escarole, but it's too far out of the scope of the local grocery stores to have a standing order for whole case quantities of things.

I really like using escarole as the tortoises themselves seem to like it best, not to mention it makes a killer good soup. Winter, even the warm ones in southern California are soup season in my kitchen at home. Well I set up an account at another wholesaler so I could get Escarole once a week. The tortoises are undoubtedly happy about this. Even the shy pancakes stretch their neck to it's limits to look out from under their hides to confirm it is indeed escarole, not other greens.

Well this new place also (Restaurant Depot being the other) has marked down items for sale that day. Whole flats of Portabella mushrooms for $8. I got two. The thing is mushrooms don't have much of a shelf life. Wednesday night my wife's Mom cook some by making thick slices and frying them on the stove top, it's really good that way, but too rich from the frying process to eat more than a few slices.

Last night I decided to do "something" with many of them, aside from the monster Manouria having their day of mushroom gluttony. I ground up 12 caps and stems cheese grater style, folding in a four eggs, a tablespoon of bacon fat, and a cup of ground turkey, laid it out in a glass baking pan and cooked it 50 minutes covered with foil at 350, then another ten minutes uncovered with a little Parmesan on top. Mushroom meatloaf. If you like mushroom but lament how the flavor can so easily escape many cooking processes, well here's a thing you can do, it tasted very mushroomy. Damn I had my cooking cap on last night.

Tortoise.


----------



## Yvonne G

I was going to give you a 'like' just so you would stop your whining, but I couldn't get through the article. I read the first few sentences and it almost put me to sleep. Besides that, we're not supposed to talk politics on the Forum. So, sorry, no 'like' for you.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

It's an economics paper. It regards the district union of scarce assets.


----------



## KevinGG

Will said:


> This paper explains so many things.



Thanks for sharing Will. Sent you a PM as I think Yvonne is right. Any public discussion may veer into insecurity very quickly. May be removed by admins first though...


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Fat finger reply from my phone got butchard. It's an economics paper regarding the allocation of scarce resources. Some system is required to do that, as 'market forces' are like evolution and the weak are quickly eaten in pure capitalism. Any system is subject to those who implement it. Everyone is corrupt. What to do?

It basically suggests that left to our own devices we will quickly exploit resources for ourselves at the expense of others. Close others are less exploited than far others. That's evolutionary altruism at work. If only someone would fairly run the system of resource use? The guy in the sky is one feeble attempt, governing systems are another.

E.O. Wilson (really well regarded evolutionary Biologist) sees ants and other communal organisms doing this well, however those species act as colonies and do kill off others of their own kind, but a different colony, as well as many other things that they consider resources. Just like people do. The more you are like me the more I will care if you succeed (that's the idea) not so much my practice.

This is all biology and evolution. Not politics or any other construct of people. Politics and constructs are how we deal with inequality as best we can. All political systems and other constructs can and do work, it's the people that are the chinks in the systems. Someone always want or finds the need to get one up, that is when any social organizing behavior starts the fail.

In the meantime I'm going to put a few extra cows in the field, more to my benefit than your detriment, so I'm sure you won't mind. I'm about to post a small 30 second movie of Medea eating some of those mushrooms.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Don't recall how to do a movie. D'oh.


----------



## Yvonne G

I think you put it up on You Tube then copy/paste it here


----------



## KevinGG

Will said:


> Fat finger reply from my phone got butchard. It's an economics paper regarding the allocation of scarce resources. Some system is required to do that, as 'market forces' are like evolution and the weak are quickly eaten in pure capitalism. Any system is subject to those who implement it. Everyone is corrupt. What to do?
> 
> It basically suggests that left to our own devices we will quickly exploit resources for ourselves at the expense of others. Close others are less exploited than far others. That's evolutionary altruism at work. If only someone would fairly run the system of resource use? The guy in the sky is one feeble attempt, governing systems are another.
> 
> E.O. Wilson (really well regarded evolutionary Biologist) sees ants and other communal organisms doing this well, however those species act as colonies and do kill off others of their own kind, but a different colony, as well as many other things that they consider resources. Just like people do. The more you are like me the more I will care if you succeed (that's the idea) not so much my practice.
> 
> This is all biology and evolution. Not politics or any other construct of people. Politics and constructs are how we deal with inequality as best we can. All political systems and other constructs can and do work, it's the people that are the chinks in the systems. Someone always want or finds the need to get one up, that is when any social organizing behavior starts the fail.
> 
> In the meantime I'm going to put a few extra cows in the field, more to my benefit than your detriment, so I'm sure you won't mind. I'm about to post a small 30 second movie of Medea eating some of those mushrooms.



Well, it's an opinion piece though. 

Yes, and that is the reason systems don't work. Because we assume that a system will work independently of people and truths of humanity (insecurity, distraction, hierarchy, etc). In the end, the only solution would be a change in people. The ability to confront our inner selves, our pain, our need to, as you put it, get one up. Unfortunately, if history has shown us anything, it is that people as a collective are unwilling or unable to do this.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

KevinGG said:


> Well, it's an opinion piece though.
> 
> Yes, and that is the reason systems don't work. Because we assume that a system will work independently of people and truths of humanity (insecurity, distraction, hierarchy, etc). In the end, the only solution would be a change in people. The ability to confront our inner selves, our pain, our need to, as you put it, get one up. Unfortunately, if history has shown us anything, it is that people as a collective are unwilling or unable to do this.



It's a process and I think we are moving in that direction. The 'hope' I have is that we will meet the purpose before our collective self destruction wins.

My wife and I are both Elon Musk fans. He has suggested his push for populating Mars ASAP is that a window in humanity is closing, and if we don't colonize somewhere else soon we will fulfill one of the explanations of the Fermi Paradox and wipe ourselves out.

In that case it would be a weird founder effect ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect ) for people.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

This is what I've been able to sort out regarding the SA phenotype. There are no doubt others out there, and also Jeff Price and Ben Awes sold their WC or CB animals, and they are "lost to follow-up".


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

These are some. The clear plastic background are 2016 D.i.c.k Bartlett tortoises. The ones on the cypress mulch are Chris Rodriguez tortoises through another person, I think 2014 hatch.

We now have 12 SA phenotype leos at the north and south farms from four WC founder groups represented in my chart. Yvonne is the north I am the south. Go team!!!

This last weekend we made a 40 x 40 square foot pen for them, planted with a wide range of edible greens. So 1600 square feet of space. Might still be a bit too small.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Richard, I guess d.i.c.k confused TFO and it **** his name.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

http://www.tortoiselibrary.com/

At the bottom of the webpage for Tortoise forum are other associated pages. The Tortoise Library is a great resource. Just saying'.


----------



## Tom C

he had one adult male from Bartlett. I didn't want to confuse the matter because he uses multiple males to breed. the babies from his female definitely look different and are distinctive.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Tom C said:


> he had one adult male from Bartlett. I didn't want to confuse the matter because he uses multiple males to breed. the babies from his female definitely look different and are distinctive.




With names this would read "Chris R. has one adult male from R. Bartlett. I didn't want to confuse the matter because Chris R. has multiple males in his group. The babies from R. Bartlett female defiantly look different and are distinct". Did I get that right?

Elsewhere I have understood that different females from Chris R.'s group produce distinct babies as well.

here's a cool short concept presentation http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/bottlenecks_01

I appreciate all the insight and conversation Tom C. it is highly valued.


----------



## Tom C

chris' limburg females has babies that all look distinct. he does not have a bartlett female. you can kinda tell which limburg line female laid the eggs by looking at the hatchlings. i was able to look through about 35 babies from 5 clutches when i dropped by his place the other day. look at the sunning picts. i posted. 4 babies came from one female, 2 from another, and lastly 2 from his last laying limburg female. i didn't even have to dot most of the babies cuz' they were so distinctive looking.


----------



## Yvonne G

@Will - maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I just put Darth's pit tag # for a Google search and it says, "No results found for *pit tag #981020011929499*."

Maybe I shouldn't have used the # sign?


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

I'll try too. He is on two registries here and Facebook. FWIW maybe if when other people post pit tag numbers we might find some better route.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

I am not sure if the # symbol was an issue or it just takes time for the data to be placed in the many server farms for google, or what else may be a factor.

I'm happy to report that just the digits brought the first hit up in .035 seconds and it was the digits here in tortoise forum.

I hope if other folks have PIT tagged animal you will post them in that registry thread. I bought a scanner for $150, and it is universal. It even reads the somewhat cryptic tags used in my work place. they are for research not pets, and the scanner will read them. I think most vets routinely scan most animals that come into their practice.

Here is another lookup page that did not provide a result, it said some registries could not be accessed at that time, to please try again later. http://www.petmicrochiplookup.org/ which is the point to do it here.

That tag for Darth was placed by the vet who fixed his hip, so that tag number is in two AHAA searchable data bases, one that is for any tag that comes from MERCK, the tag registry I used and posted about and here on TFO. The TFO cite comes up first in the searches each time.

So, I'd suggest that TFO is more accessible, and well, who better to follow-up than a consortium of 30,000 chelonian people?


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## Kapidolo Farms

https://academic.oup.com/bioscience...483/PIT-Tagging-Simple-Technology-at-Its-Best

This is a "scholarly" article debating PIT tag use for many purposes.


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## Kapidolo Farms

I'll drop this here .. .. ..

@Anyfoot @cdmay This is her thesis that begat the papers published elsewhere.


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> I'll drop this here .. .. ..
> 
> @Anyfoot @cdmay This is her thesis that begat the papers published elsewhere.


Brilliant that Will. Thank you.


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## cdmay

Will said:


> I'll drop this here .. .. ..
> 
> @Anyfoot @cdmay This is her thesis that begat the papers published elsewhere.


Yes, that's the one.
Pretty sure she wasn't naked most of the time.


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## Kapidolo Farms

#2 @cdmay 

na·ked
ˈnākid/
_adjective_

*1*.
(of a person or part of the body) without clothes.
"he'd never seen a naked woman before"
synonyms: nude, bare, in the nude, stark naked, having nothing on, stripped, unclothed,undressed.
*2*.
(of something such as feelings or behavior) undisguised; blatant.
"naked, unprovoked aggression"
synonyms: undisguised, plain, unadorned, unvarnished, unqualified, stark, bald; 
overt, obvious,open, patent, evident, apparent, manifest, unmistakable, blatant
"the naked truth"


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## Yvonne G

So, let me get this straight.

I buy a Mep and realize it has a pit tag (however). So I go to my friend Google and put in the pit tag number and the "pit tag registry" on the forum comes up. If I bother to scroll down and find my pit tag number, I am able to find out that "Darth" is the sire and he also has a pit tag, and that "Medea" is the dam, who is not tagged. What if I also wanted to know hatch date, etc. Does this tag number give me any other locations to do more research on this animal I just bought?


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## Kapidolo Farms

Yvonne G said:


> So, let me get this straight.
> 
> I buy a Mep and realize it has a pit tag (however). So I go to my friend Google and put in the pit tag number and the "pit tag registry" on the forum comes up. If I bother to scroll down and find my pit tag number, I am able to find out that "Darth" is the sire and he also has a pit tag, and that "Medea" is the dam, who is not tagged. What if I also wanted to know hatch date, etc. Does this tag number give me any other locations to do more research on this animal I just bought?


Well I believe when/if someone is curious about such they will see that some guy named "will" posted that, and they can ask him if they want to. The hatch date, egg laying as it occurred, and how they were incubated is all here, though not so easy to find. In that sense TFO exceeds what is in an actual IUCN/AZA studbook. In AZA studbooks there is no nothing more than Dame Sire and Hatch date, no egg laying date or how they were incubated.

I know that flippers will flip, no stopping that, and many are pretty open about what they are doing. But there are many people who sell more than they have. I've purchased more than a few animals that were "studbooked" and yet the person could not provide a studbook number that reconciles with the studbook.

Recently there was some Manouria for sale, yet no one could say where they were bred. I'd like to hook Phae up with a F1 male on KNOWN parents. not some random high priced male that can't be accounted for. Yeah I'm talking about @Baoh , I mean WTF dude? You seek a premium price and you have a random captive bred somewhat rare-ish animal.

Think about the guy in Tx that bought the integrades and then flipped them as one subspecies or another (as I have been told). Those people down stream have no idea. The offspring from 2012 were sold and flipped months later, those people have no clue. 

I think it is more scrutable to make the history knowable.

Look at all the hype, paranoia, and false dogma (is that redundant?) associated with the SA leopard tortoise phenotype. I'm tired of all that crap. This is what I can do about it.


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> Well I believe when/if someone is curious about such they will see that some guy named "will" posted that, and they can ask him if they want to. The hatch date, egg laying as it occurred, and how they were incubated is all here, though not so easy to find. In that sense TFO exceeds what is in an actual IUCN/AZA studbook. In AZA studbooks there is no nothing more than Dame Sire and Hatch date, no egg laying date or how they were incubated.
> 
> I know that flippers will flip, no stopping that, and many are pretty open about what they are doing. But there are many people who sell more than they have. I've purchased more than a few animals that were "studbooked" and yet the person could not provide a studbook number that reconciles with the studbook.
> 
> Recently there was some Manouria for sale, yet no one could say where they were bred. I'd like to hook Phae up with a F1 male on KNOWN parents. not some random high priced male that can't be accounted for. Yeah I'm talking about @Baoh , I mean WTF dude? You seek a premium price and you have a random captive bred somewhat rare-ish animal.
> 
> Think about the guy in Tx that bought the integrades and then flipped them as one subspecies or another (as I have been told). Those people down stream have no idea. The offspring from 2012 were sold and flipped months later, those people have no clue.
> 
> I think it is more scrutable to make the history knowable.
> 
> Look at all the hype, paranoia, and false dogma (is that redundant?) associated with the SA leopard tortoise phenotype. I'm tired of all that crap. This is what I can do about it.


Ain't that the Naked Truth.


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## Baoh

Will said:


> Recently there was some Manouria for sale, yet no one could say where they were bred. I'd like to hook Phae up with a F1 male on KNOWN parents. not some random high priced male that can't be accounted for. Yeah I'm talking about @Baoh , I mean WTF dude? You seek a premium price and you have a random captive bred somewhat rare-ish animal.



Always fun to have other people tell me about these posts about/to me when a person making them does not simply send me an email or message me on Facebook (both of which I believe you are capable of based on historical precedent).

"no one could say where they were bred"

If you are talking about the spare male I recently sold, I gave the history of the animal to 1) anyone who messaged me as I expressly directed in the FB ad or who emailed me as I expressly directed in the Fauna ad and Kingsnake ad and 2) the buyer of that male. Not sure where "they" comes into this since that single male is not a plural in any sense. I sold a couple (plural) of other phayrei back in 2016. The buyer of those two animals received the background on those as well via email after contacting me to express interest. I sold one phayrei in 2015 before I decided to expand my colony and offered all of the information available to the buyer at the time (which is my custom). Since the buyer now has that information, it is his to keep or pass on if he ever decides to part with the animal.

"random high priced male"

Not random. It was that specific male. The price was on target to have three willing buyers lined up at the time of sale in addition to the usual series of people who like to make less serious contact. If the price had been too high, I would have had three fewer potential buyers. I have sold a male that was 2" longer (for $625 more than this animal) before (in 2014) and originally listed this recent male for $250 more than the shipped price in the ad you saw before deciding to change that to emphasize a speedier sale for the sake of freeing up the materials that form the barrier of the pen he was kept in. If it makes you feel better for some reason, I could not have mathematically profited off of him unless I had sold him for the pair's purchase price and I certainly did not do that. I have no problem with the price. If I had females and no male and needed a male to avoid missing reproductive seasons, I would pay more than I sold the male in 2014 or the male in 2017 for. Demand was adequate. I could sell two more phayrei males for the same amount as the recent one right now and another two fellows I know are in need of emys males for their projects. The correct price is what sells - even if a seller has to be patient to find the correct buyer.

I have been told you have some kind of complaint regarding me selling him in the first place. Maybe you think I should feel obligated to keep him or something. I did not buy him for the sake of selling him. I also did not buy him for the sake of keeping him. This situation was not a dichotomous set of options when it comes to motivations for sale. I bought him because he was an unavoidable co-purchase with the purchase of a female that I wanted to add to my project. Both animals came to me needing some work. I improved the breadth of the male's dietary range, cleaned out his gut, and spent time adjusting him to a more interactive life. To that end, he would prefer my company (complete with neck rubs and crawling into my lap to sit there for them) to food and he gained several pounds of lean body mass between the time I brought him to my property and the time I took him for transfer to his new home further South. The people meeting with me to pick him up for the sake of the buyer were treated to just how friendly he is and expressed being pleased with him. The female took a lot more work due to the damage she had from before she was handed over to me, but she is doing extremely well. She might even nest this year if I am lucky. Her origin is completely different from his. I have five distinct bloodlines in my colony at the least (likely more, but I call all of my TSA animals one single line and I call all of my TC animals another single line since I was not given further subdivision on their lineages; I could actually have as many as nine distinct lines, but I cannot say for sure and therefore refer to some groups as a single line as a result) and I avoid what overlap I can. I do not recall a mandate I am subject to that means I have to keep a spare male because someone else wants me to.

Sadly, one of the intermediate owners made up (and told) multiple differing stories about the animal, but - luckily for me - my network allowed me to make contact with an owner before that owner (and who is known for the accuracy of his information integrity maintenance; he generally keeps to himself because people hound him to sell his females to them when he has no such interest in selling, so I appreciate that he and I could discuss this). What was lost was found and all was well. On this site, there is a person talking about another person's phayrei and misstating the origins of that person's animals. I feel bad seeing that, but that sort of thing happens frequently. I let the owner know and he can make waves or not. Probably not.

As mentioned, an email or a message as the respective ads indicated would have allowed anyone with interest to receive the actual history of the animal back when it was for sale. Since it was sold, there is no longer a need for that from me unless the buyer asks it of me again.


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## Kapidolo Farms

I did ask, the man who sold it to you was forthcoming with as much history as he knew, which was still absent the actual source. That you held fast at your price, noting such as the case on a couple of responses toward no actual question regarding price affords the contemplation it is a premium price. That in itself is no worry. That the breeder was not known or posted makes it random.


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## Kapidolo Farms

On another note regarding posting PIT tag numbers here. I don't know Josh, never met him, but he has built a interweb presence that has stood many test of such on the interweb and it still stands. I'd like to see this venue persist. It persists based on revenue. At some point I may be of a mind to buy ad space, in the intervening time I think posting the PIT tag numbers ads value and more clicks, for more $ to those who do buy ad space here. Yeah for TFO!


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## Baoh

Will said:


> I did ask, the man who sold it to you was forthcoming with as much history as he knew, which was still absent the actual source. That you held fast at your price, noting such as the case on a couple of responses toward no actual question regarding price affords the contemplation it is a premium price. That in itself is no worry. That the breeder was not known or posted makes it random.



I have multiple screen shots of that seller's words. I am sure he was very "forthcoming" with a version of its background. The screen shots include three different versions of its background (according to that person) and then there was a fourth version (according to that person) that was stated to me in person. Different stories at different times for different people from the same individual. For the same tortoise. To get the reality of its background, I had to go to a source of information prior to the person who I got the animal from. I also confirmed the background of the female with a seller prior to the seller I bought her from. There were no major inconsistencies with the retelling of the background of the female. One of the four versions given for the male is correct after getting confirmation via communicating with a prior owner. That makes the other three versions, since all four versions differed, not truthful. The correct version was not posted publicly by a previous seller, but I hinted at the correct version in one of my replies to someone else. While I privately have references who can testify to the penchant for storytelling involved with one of these sources of information/misinformation, I am not keen on stirring anything needlessly. The breeder was known at the time of the ad's placement. The animal was specific in its origin and therefore not random. The animal of topic is in an excellent home with an even better subdivision of climate than mine here, the buyer and his facilitating friends have the genuine history, I have received the money I expected for the animal for a semi-local transaction, I met some nice people, and I was able to reclaim the barrier panels allocated for his pen to clean and apply to another quarantine area for a friend's animals down the road.

Not accepting just any offer from any person does not make it a premium price. I do not mind when others sell their own animals for less if they like, as it is their prerogative. Kind of like how people who sometimes like to reach out and say they will "give it a good home for free if you cannot find a buyer for it" do not make the values of animals like elegans, phayrei, ivory sulcata, hypo carbonaria, and more suddenly become zero because some of the people want something for zero dollars. I see it as being a little further up the spectrum as those people who post wanted ads to profess a willingness to adopt free radiata or gigantea. If you or anyone else would like to sell animals for less, I think you/he/she have/has every right to do so. Same for if you/he/she would like to sell animals for more. The completion of sales will determine what is tenable as far as pricing goes.

Unless there is something warranting further response on the matter (which could have been done directly in the first place), I am happy to return you to the normal course of your thread so as not to further distract from it.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Baoh said:


> I have multiple screen shots of that seller's words. I am sure he was very "forthcoming" with a version of its background. The screen shots include three different versions of its background (according to that person) and then there was a fourth version (according to that person) that was stated to me in person. Different stories at different times for different people from the same individual. For the same tortoise. To get the reality of its background, I had to go to a source of information prior to the person who I got the animal from. I also confirmed the background of the female with a seller prior to the seller I bought her from. There were no major inconsistencies with the retelling of the background of the female. One of the four versions given for the male is correct after getting confirmation via communicating with a prior owner. That makes the other three versions, since all four versions differed, not truthful. The correct version was not posted publicly by a previous seller, but I hinted at the correct version in one of my replies to someone else. While I privately have references who can testify to the penchant for storytelling involved with one of these sources of information/misinformation, I am not keen on stirring anything needlessly. The breeder was known at the time of the ad's placement. The animal was specific in its origin and therefore not random. The animal of topic is in an excellent home with an even better subdivision of climate than mine here, the buyer and his facilitating friends have the genuine history, I have received the money I expected for the animal for a semi-local transaction, I met some nice people, and I was able to reclaim the barrier panels allocated for his pen to clean and apply to another quarantine area for a friend's animals down the road.
> 
> Not accepting just any offer from any person does not make it a premium price. I do not mind when others sell their own animals for less if they like, as it is their prerogative. Kind of like how people who sometimes like to reach out and say they will "give it a good home for free if you cannot find a buyer for it" do not make the values of animals like elegans, phayrei, ivory sulcata, hypo carbonaria, and more suddenly become zero because some of the people want something for zero dollars. I see it as being a little further up the spectrum as those people who post wanted ads to profess a willingness to adopt free radiata or gigantea. If you or anyone else would like to sell animals for less, I think you/he/she have/has every right to do so. Same for if you/he/she would like to sell animals for more. The completion of sales will determine what is tenable as far as pricing goes.
> 
> Unless there is something warranting further response on the matter (which could have been done directly in the first place), I am happy to return you to the normal course of your thread so as not to further distract from it.



We are well within the normal course of the thread, it's TFO's, it's only moderated for tone of argument and "bad" words. Very very rarely do the mods retroactively delete things, but you'd be correct to say they do on occasion. Yeah, I know. You can't keep re-editing on TFO after several minutes.

Thanks for sharing so many words and not actually saying anything of value towards the identity of the animal. If we don't wholly keep record of the animal we all end up with higgly-piggly messes.

In all sincerity I wish you would post here more again on husbandry and care info, your insights on other things as well. If it takes a pot shot to have you contribute then expect more. I like you Nick. It would be great if in venues you have editorial/moderator input on you too would offer the occasional personal e-mail, nor not edit out or sensor content of modest value. That person who had so many versions would have outed themselves for silliness had you just left it all alone. Each 'comment' elevates the post for the seller, never too much of a bad thing. 

If/when that animal comes up for sale again (slight chance at least) how will anyone know of it's origin?

I have F1 and F1/F2 animals out there forever lost to follow-up. I am frankly ashamed of that.


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## Baoh

Will said:


> We are well within the normal course of the thread, it's TFO's, it's only moderated for tone of argument and "bad" words. Very very rarely do the mods retroactively delete things, but you'd be correct to say they do on occasion. Yeah, I know. You can't keep re-editing on TFO after several minutes.
> 
> Thanks for sharing so many words and not actually saying anything of value towards the identity of the animal. If we don't wholly keep record of the animal we all end up with higgly-piggly messes.
> 
> In all sincerity I wish you would post here more again on husbandry and care info, your insights on other things as well. If it takes a pot shot to have you contribute then expect more. I like you Nick. It would be great if in venues you have editorial/moderator input on you too would offer the occasional personal e-mail, nor not edit out or sensor content of modest value. That person who had so many versions would have outed themselves for silliness had you just left it all alone. Each 'comment' elevates the post for the seller, never too much of a bad thing.
> 
> If/when that animal comes up for sale again (slight chance at least) how will anyone know of it's origin?
> 
> I have F1 and F1/F2 animals out there forever lost to follow-up. I am frankly ashamed of that.



I am not concerned with retroactive moderator deletion as it relates to this topic. I also am not concerned by an inability to edit to fix spelling errors or what have you.

You are welcome. The animal's history was open to you (and everyone else) when the animal was for sale, but people had to ask as the ad instructed. I find that instructions in my ads serve as good selection tools. A number of fellow enthusiasts appreciate that attention to detail. Now the history belongs to the new owner. It is not owed to others unless they court ownership of it. If the current owner ever wishes to relay it, that is now his option.

I share information daily with a network of advanced, intermediate, and neophyte keepers (as the last group's members comprise the future) from various walks of life, but the environment has to support it. If a pot shot is how someone chooses to seek my attention, maybe there is too much distance between our perspectives for effective communication. I certainly do not take pot shots for the sake of receiving information that would have otherwise been readily shared. Not the most effective strategy with me. Whether you like me or not really does not factor in, Will, but this approach with me will not engender full information exchange and I remember how people approach me. If they request information from me using the channels I stipulate in my ads, I share everything while those windows of opportunity are open. I do not post ads to satisfy interests of people who are not my prospective customers. As for moderation duties/activities, I moderate according to the rules for the venues I moderate within. If you want to run things differently elsewhere, it would be irrelevant to my operation within the frameworks of the website and other groups within which I serve as a moderator/administrator. You are free to moderate in the manner you see fit wherever that is permitted, of course. I can run my ads however I like within the rules of the venues I use. I do not have to leave anything alone and I do not have to encourage anything within the context of my advertisement. A fabricator's self-outing is not the point of a for-sale ad posted by me. The point is the sale to a party I feel matches or can provide the care needs of the animal while delivering the financial compensation I expect in the exchange. I am capable of bumping my ads easily enough, so I do not need fake backstories or bickering amongst noise-makers to do so. I understand that those needless dramatics entertain some, but I lack that interest. Other people wanting their ads to spiral out into something else is their business. Or lack of business in favor of play.

If the animal is posted for sale again, the prospective buyers can simply request that information from the seller. Just as it could have been asked of me if contacted directly by email or messenger when I had the animal listed for sale. I am sure he would respond well to anyone he would consider to be approaching him honestly.


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> I'll drop this here .. .. ..
> 
> @Anyfoot @cdmay This is her thesis that begat the papers published elsewhere.


 After the mammoth print out of this thesis I am now reading through it, and very interesting it is too. Some things are being confirmed to me and some things are totally new information to me. I'll be back to talk when I've finally read it all(don't hold your breath). 
Just a quick question though. @cdmay @Will. Are the northern forms strictly north of the Amazon River and the Brazilian forms South of the Amazon. Obviously Bolivians are south, also are yellowfoots only north of the Amazon? 

Still trying to work out how Debra actually got to Maraca island when it looks to be at least 10miles from the main road(RR-342).


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## Kapidolo Farms

Yellow foots are or have been estimated from south of the Amazon . There had been a population of a unique form in the "Atlantic " forest. Coastal area of South East Brazil.


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## Kapidolo Farms

I meant extirpated not estimated in post #324. There are several regional differences, size of adult is an easy one to see. The St. Louis Zoo has some so large they exceed small adult Aldabras. 

In the late 1990's a man Anthony Taggert(?) did a presentation at the Philly zoo seeking help with his quest to bring some sort of modernization to a zoo in Peru. In that presentation was an image of at least a few dozen yellowfoots that were on scale with Tapirs they shared an enclosure with. All easily exceeded 100 pounds. I asked about them, he mentioned odds were they had all been consumed as Fish during Easter. 

Equally unique are individuals from the Atlantic Forest. . .




I think Peter Pritchard showed slides of them at an NYTTS meeting/Seminar. They looked distinct.


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> I meant extirpated not estimated in post #324. There are several regional differences, size of adult is an easy one to see. The St. Louis Zoo has some so large they exceed small adult Aldabras.
> 
> In the late 1990's a man Anthony Taggert(?) did a presentation at the Philly zoo seeking help with his quest to bring some sort of modernization to a zoo in Peru. In that presentation was an image of at least a few dozen yellowfoots that were on scale with Tapirs they shared an enclosure with. All easily exceeded 100 pounds. I asked about them, he mentioned odds were they had all been consumed as Fish during Easter.
> 
> Equally unique are individuals from the Atlantic Forest. . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Peter Pritchard showed slides of them at an NYTTS meeting/Seminar. They looked distinct.


Im guessing the extirpation is due to the demand for human consumption more than anything else. (e.g pet trade and deforestation) ?????

Where are you getting these range maps from? Even Mr Google can't find them.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> Im guessing the extirpation is due to the demand for human consumption more than anything else. (e.g pet trade and deforestation) ?????
> 
> Where are you getting these range maps from? Even Mr Google can't find them.


 Well then I guess I used Ms. Google. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=ran...X&ved=0ahUKEwiXkpmI7abSAhUqsFQKHRwqDR8QsAQIJA


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> Well then I guess I used Ms. Google.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=ran...X&ved=0ahUKEwiXkpmI7abSAhUqsFQKHRwqDR8QsAQIJA


Ahhh. When I google redfoot map range I get perthetic maps, not like googling yellowfoot maps. 
Cheers


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## Kapidolo Farms

BTW, this is a PotShot. Nothing random about it. There are several thousand expressions that conform to a style of poetry written by a man, Ashleigh Brilliant. This is my all time favorite. It acts like a filter, if you read it and find I am confessing to be stupid, then I know you are. Harsh, but that's how I see it. So many of his expressions are now ingrained in common spoken language it's hard to realize they came from one poet.

My dad ran his own printing plant for most of his adult life and printed quantities of these in the 100's of 1,000's. I was indoctrinated into running some presses and the like. That's how I learned to read from any direction equally well. Might be my I'm dyslectic too.


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## Kapidolo Farms

These are some of the Mep available.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Images of the Mep's

The neonates a few weeks ago
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/live-naked-people.126107/page-17#post-1460953

The neonates at about two weeks of age
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/live-naked-people.126107/page-12#post-1377785
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/eggs-are-hatching-m-e-p.145386/#post-1376111

As they hatched
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/live-naked-people.126107/page-11#post-1367082
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/live-naked-people.126107/page-10#post-1366368

The dam
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/live-naked-people.126107/page-15#post-1435385
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/live-naked-people.126107/page-14#post-1412523
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/live-naked-people.126107/page-5#post-1250793
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/live-naked-people.126107/page-4#post-1238352
when she was building her nest
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/live-naked-people.126107/page-6#post-1308397

The trio, Darth (sire) is facing us, Medea (dam) is to the left
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/live-naked-people.126107/page-6#post-1278484
The trio, two closest are Medea (dam) and Darth (sire)
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/live-naked-people.126107/page-5#post-1256760

A whole thread on Darth (sire)
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/case-file-on-darth.116347/


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## Kapidolo Farms

For some reason I did not get the plastron of that last one. Image with PIT tag reader is followed by image of SAME tortoise's plastron.

Guys these are all so similar looking I can only tell the two creased scute holdbacks from all the others. Already sold are the few in the low 200 grams. All these range from 180 grams to 205 grams, and that changes daily between eating, defecating, and drinking.

Radiated, leos, others I understand you want to find abstract art in a pattern. That is not happening with this species.


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## Kapidolo Farms




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## Kapidolo Farms

All done now and partially grazed by girls of both phenotypes.


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## Cowboy_Ken

Wishing now that I had internal PIT tags on the tortoises that were "held for me" while I recovered. Still no sign on ones I was very attached to and raised. These are from when I was in my auto accident.


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## Kapidolo Farms

This morning's salad. Two heads of escarole, two bunches of organic black Kale, one bunch of collards, about 1 pound each of arugula and spring mix. One cup of grated pumpkin (the last of it from Halloween) , and a cup of rehydrate Bermuda grass pellets. One small cuttle bone and a heaping teaspoon of vionate.

A small portion chopped much finer for small Egyptians. Mushrooms and yard blossoms (hibiscus, Cape honey suckle, and nasturtiums) added for planicauda and hingebacks. Small chunks of organic strawberries mixed in for Forstens.

Manouria neonates, pancakes and adult Egyptians etc get the base mix.

It's a little different everyday.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Cowboy_Ken said:


> Wishing now that I had internal PIT tags on the tortoises that were "held for me" while I recovered. Still no sign on ones I was very attached to and raised. These are from when I was in my auto accident.




PIT tagging is pretty simple once you know how. Like most things.

At a vet the cost can be prohibitive for many people. Establish a patient fee can run from $20 to $50, actual office visit (just walking through the door) can double that. Then the actually tagging can run $60 to $120 for a total cost of $100 to $220. All for a few minutes and a $5 PIT tag. The registries can cost a one time fee or $20 or an annual subscription.

I buy tags at less than $5.00 each and post the number here and through a free tag registry. I've contemplated a video showing how, but then some rectal orifice might botch the procedure and blame it on me. But them again I handle thousands of small animals a year and have 'good hands' for such. I've done many terminal and survival surgeries on mice and tagged thousands of mice an many many hundreds of turtles and tortoises.

When I've trained colleagues at work they seem to pick it up within about five to ten mice. But they are already in the mode of handling hundreds of mice and rats. One of these "keep a tortoise like a Barbie" keepers will faint if they saw the size of the needle. Might not have good eye hand coordination and then end up harming the animal they like and maybe love. 

So I'm not going to do a video. Maybe you know a vet tech that will place tags that you buy?


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## Yvonne G

Will said:


> PIT tagging is pretty simple once you know how.




You want to think back to the leg you spent about 45 minutes on a couple week-ends ago and say that "pretty simple" comment again?


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## Cowboy_Ken

Will said:


> I know two vets that will place tags that you buy?


Heckfire, they own their clinic…


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## Kapidolo Farms

[URL='http://www.tortoiseforum.org/goto/post?id=1469080#post-1469080' said:


> ↑[/URL]
> "Will said: I know two vets that will place tags that you buy?"
> "Cowboy_Ken, post: 1469212, member: 14851"]Heckfire, they own their clinic…


I did NOT say that.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Yvonne G said:


> You want to think back to the leg you spent about 45 minutes on a couple week-ends ago and say that "pretty simple" comment again?


Four animals. three took about ten minutes one took much longer. The procedure was the same for each animal. One simply was better at alluding my leg hold. All the while my assistant was capping and uncapping sharps, using two hands. That's a crazy distraction. Those needles are very sharp and skin offers little resistance to penetration from the needle. 

The procedure is simple. Changing a tire is more complicated. But if you change a tire in the rain or a snow storm it becomes more challenging yet the actual procedure is the same.


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## Kapidolo Farms

These are both dry and hydrated Bermuda grass pellets. It took about 1/2 hour to rehydrate with cool tap water. That amount that was rehydrated was mixed in with one bunch of black Kale, two heads of escarole, 3 pounds of spring mix, a half pound of arugula, a grated cactus pad and a grated sweet potato that was about the size of an orange.

Today was a no Vionate or extra calcium day, just produce. So that at least 7 kinds of greens, grass, cactus, and some root vegetables. Very good variety and nutrient rich.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Today's base salad. Two heads of escarole, two heads of romaine, one bunch of black kale, 1.5 pounds of spring mix, and 1 pound of 'baby' kale. One cactus pad grated along with two deep green zucchini, and about half the sweet potato in volume (about the size of half an orange) as yesterday. 

Today's dry fiber rich addition is dry mulberry leaf. That is about one cup's worth in the image. Today they got a teaspoon of vionate and a small cuttle bone scraped into a powder. 

As you can see from the salad as fed, it is pretty diverse for content. The hingebacks and planicauda get chopped mushrooms added and the planicauda get hibiscus blossoms mixed in, I was lazy to go harvest cape honeysuckle blossoms today. The Egyptians got many dandelion mixed in. The Egyptians will go to great lengths to get the dandelion right away, so I quarter them and mix them in to the base salad.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Stocked for about one week. 24 heads of escarole, 24 heads of romaine, two 3 pound bags of spring mix, one 2.5 pound bag of baby kale, one 2 pound bag of arugula, one remaing bunch of black Kale, 22 pounds of zucchini, one two pound flat of mushrooms (in the door out of sight), and grated cactus pad in the white tub. Sweet Potato, winter squashes are next to the frig.


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## Anyfoot

@Will. Hoping you can help me out. 
Where do I find out what the past and present import quotas for wild tortoises where/are into the UK?


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## eec0354

Hi Will, I was wondering if any of your m.e.p were still available? Thanks.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Mep still avaiable.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> @Will. Hoping you can help me out.
> Where do I find out what the past and present import quotas for wild tortoises where/are into the UK?



EEU and all I may be incorrect, but I think as all tortoises are CITES II or I, with in the EU I don't think you need permits or quotas, but then again I recall England having rules more restrictive than CITES. There is no doubt a CITES office in London and they should have online resources. Lets see??

First hit with the search "England CITES office"
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/cites-imports-and-exports

second hit
https://cites.org/eng/cms/index.php/component/cp/country/GB

So outside the EU may be more about export quotas and the UK authority CITES office just accepts the export countries 'experts".


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## Kapidolo Farms

The cement tub neonate grow out tubs. First image is looking at the bottom inside so you can see the bulk head fitting. The second image is the outside bottom showing the fitting ready to relieve hose. The third image is straight onto one end of what is the top tub. That piece cut out is the access. The fourth image is four units on shelves holding small tortoises.

Two way to deal with that bulk head as it sits for use. You can buy a plastic cone shaped fitting that keeps large particles out. I use a piece of that coco mat stuff used in hanging baskets and put the feed tile over it. I put a 24 watt T5 HO inside on the lid tub. Now I've added 25 watt nano CHE's to a few of them (on a thermostat) to keep a slightly higher overnight temp.)

I use painters masking tape to seal top and bottom together. Makes it easy to pull off and open the whole thing up. I use the spring mix bags over the access as they have many small holes so the greens can breath. That also allows air exchange but not so much humidity gets too low.

The first one took a few hours to make. This one took 20 minutes. All the figuring has been done and trial (no error) has lead to very simple refinements.


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> EEU and all I may be incorrect, but I think as all tortoises are CITES II or I, with in the EU I don't think you need permits or quotas, but then again I recall England having rules more restrictive than CITES. There is no doubt a CITES office in London and they should have online resources. Lets see??
> 
> First hit with the search "England CITES office"
> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/cites-imports-and-exports
> 
> second hit
> https://cites.org/eng/cms/index.php/component/cp/country/GB
> 
> So outside the EU may be more about export quotas and the UK authority CITES office just accepts the export countries 'experts".


 Yep on my first and second hit I got those. After endless hits and a bold head because of the pulling of my hair out of frustration I thought I'd ask you. 
Thanks anyway, it's not what I'm looking for, not sure what I'm looking for exists. 
Basically I was trying to find out if there is a list of all tortoises imported into the UK for lest say the last 3 decades. 
So what what the import quota for redfoots in 2016, 2015........1987...... (For example) 

I'll contact the gov UK site and see if they can help. 

Cheers


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## Kapidolo Farms

I see I answered the wrong question. Traffic an IUCN monitoring entity based in Switzerland and has offices in different parts of the world tracks actual imports of animals. To me a quota is an allowed amount. Traffic monitors actual import and export.


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## Kapidolo Farms

@Anyfoot 

http://www.traffic.org/ This is it.

https://www.tortoise.org/archives/impressa.html look in the acknowledgements

I so did not get your question sorry for the frustration.


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> @Anyfoot
> 
> http://www.traffic.org/ This is it.
> 
> https://www.tortoise.org/archives/impressa.html look in the acknowledgements
> 
> I so did not get your question sorry for the frustration.


 Thanks Will. I'll have a look when I get a minute. No sorry needed.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Take a close look. This small Pyxis planicauda is sitting on food that is several days old. They try to monopolize the best food of all offered. There are two in this enclosure, just like the one I showed in the most recent previous post, 2 x 3 so six square feet for two tortoise under 100 grams each.

Anyhow, they like the mushy semi decomposed food over the most fresh. Aside from Hibiscus and cape honey suckle flowers which they go for ASAP.

These little guys are hyper vigilant to not do much when I'm looking at then even through the smallest place possible. However I noticed they graze the fruit fly maggots from the decomposed two day old food. Those little dudes are farmers. I have seen gulfcoast box turtles do this. I Am very surprised to see these guys do it. And they get decomposed food too, but they are focused on those fruit fly maggots. Especially the ones from decomposed mushrooms. 

My favorite thing about having pets, any pet, is seeing some interesting behavior or adaptation reveal itself. These guys figured this out for themselves.


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> Take a close look. This small Pyxis planicauda is sitting on food that is several days old. They try to monopolize the best food of all offered. There are two in this enclosure, just like the one I showed in the most recent previous post, 2 x 3 so six square feet for two tortoise under 100 grams each.
> 
> Anyhow, they like the mushy semi decomposed food over the most fresh. Aside from Hibiscus and cape honey suckle flowers which they go for ASAP.
> 
> These little guys are hyper vigilant to not do much when I'm looking at then even through the smallest place possible. However I noticed they graze the fruit fly maggots from the decomposed two day old food. Those little dudes are farmers. I have seen gulfcoast box turtles do this. I Am very surprised to see these guys do it. And they get decomposed food too, but they are focused on those fruit fly maggots. Especially the ones from decomposed mushrooms.
> 
> My favorite thing about having pets, any pet, is seeing some interesting behavior or adaptation reveal itself. These guys figured this out for themselves.


 Cool Will, you could do with setting up a small camera on these guys, may learn a lot about their habits.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> Cool Will, you could do with setting up a small camera on these guys, may learn a lot about their habits.




I could do with a full time employee. LOL. I'm very fixed on the completion of upgrading everyone's enclosures. I'm coming into a large group of erosa and working a few hours at least every a few days to get that sorted out. I still have some documentation to complete on animals in the farm, with PIT tags and photos. 

I keep bouncing back and forth between seeking a property here in So Cal or going to a central American country where the comparative investment is about 1 acres versus a 100 acres. That pesky graft thing and CITES authorities keeps coming up with those central American countries though. I'm not good at that kind of negotiation. 

So I take delight in simple observations as I go. This species P. planicauda are a top three most interesting species for me.


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> The cement tub neonate grow out tubs. First image is looking at the bottom inside so you can see the bulk head fitting. The second image is the outside bottom showing the fitting ready to relieve hose. The third image is straight onto one end of what is the top tub. That piece cut out is the access. The fourth image is four units on shelves holding small tortoises.
> 
> Two way to deal with that bulk head as it sits for use. You can buy a plastic cone shaped fitting that keeps large particles out. I use a piece of that coco mat stuff used in hanging baskets and put the feed tile over it. I put a 24 watt T5 HO inside on the lid tub. Now I've added 25 watt nano CHE's to a few of them (on a thermostat) to keep a slightly higher overnight temp.)
> 
> I use painters masking tape to seal top and bottom together. Makes it easy to pull off and open the whole thing up. I use the spring mix bags over the access as they have many small holes so the greens can breath. That also allows air exchange but not so much humidity gets too low.
> 
> The first one took a few hours to make. This one took 20 minutes. All the figuring has been done and trial (no error) has lead to very simple refinements.
> 
> View attachment 203843
> View attachment 203844
> View attachment 203845
> View attachment 203846


 I don't know why I've only just seen this, looks good, simple, inexpensive and works. What size are these cement tubs, this could be a very easy way for new tortoise owners to get going on the correct path(after the pet shops have sold them all the wrong expensive equipment).


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## Kenno

Will said:


> Take a close look. This small Pyxis planicauda is sitting on food that is several days old. They try to monopolize the best food.



Only one of my three desert torts has figured out how to sit on the food and wait for the others to leave. Then he backs up and eats everything!


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## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> I don't know why I've only just seen this, looks good, simple, inexpensive and works. What size are these cement tubs, this could be a very easy way for new tortoise owners to get going on the correct path(after the pet shops have sold them all the wrong expensive equipment).


There have been a few discussion about these here on TFO, most lost in the haze of active conversations. They are 2 x 3 foot at the edge of the top, so actual usable foot print is slightly smaller, the sides are 8 inches tall.

There are a few manufactures out there, and qualities as well, all that fit this size. I just spent 1/2 an hour trying to find the thread where some of us collaborated in sourceing the 'good ones' and I can't find it now. 

One type by MaCourt (sp) is not as good as the other maker whose name I did not find. But both work.

By writing this response enough brain cells were triggered, here it is http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/where-to-find-this-container.149919/#post-1431378


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> I'll drop this here .. .. ..
> 
> @Anyfoot @cdmay This is her thesis that begat the papers published elsewhere.


@SarahChelonoidis have you read this, I'm still only about a third the way through, not much alone time. But it's a very very good read.

God damn it, the PDF didn't link in on my reply and I don't know how to find out what number post it is in Will's thread. It's on page 16 of this thread.


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## SarahChelonoidis

Anyfoot said:


> @SarahChelonoidis have you read this, I'm still only about a third the way through, not much alone time. But it's a very very good read.
> 
> God damn it, the PDF didn't link in on my reply and I don't know how to find out what number post it is in Will's thread. It's on page 16 of this thread.



Thanks for the tag - no I haven't read it, but I'll give it a read this week. Definitely looks like something I'd enjoy.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/Live-naked-people.126107/#post-1454265


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## Yvonne G

@Will - I hope you don't mind that I post my feeding here too. Afterall, you are the one who gave me the idea.

So yesterday I went grocery shopping and outside the front door of the store they had these "bushel baskets"??? stacked up to sell. 

Will had been telling me it would be much easier in the a.m.s when I'm mixing up the tortoise food if I were to use a big cement mixing tub like he does and just get in there and toss it all around with my hands. So I looked at those tubs outside the store, placed my fist under my chin, and said, "Hm-m-m-m-m. . ." I bought one. And he was right. It IS much easier to mix up the food in a larger container:




First I put in three scoops (a 2-cup measuring cup) of Mazuri, then one scoop of bermuda grass pellets and a scoop of Purina Layena. I added water until it was all submerged and let it sit. In the meantime, I went outside and cut several small branches off the mulberry tree, a couple stems of prickly lettuce and a couple stems of mallow. By the time I got back into the house all the pellets were mushy. I added the stuff from outside along with 6 heads of romaine, a bag of collards and a bag of kale. I had a bit of iceberg garden salad left over from my lunch and I also added that. Mixing it all up with my hands, I was able to break apart the clumps of soggy pellets so that it coats the greens. And now, with the handles, I no longer have to balance three dish pans of food while trying to open the door to get them all outside. I cut the leaves off the stems, and cut up the lettuce so it would all mix together better.

I used to chop up food for the babies, but I'm going to try feeding them from this mixture too. If they eat it, no more baby chopping! Whoopee!

I also have a wonderful food grinder given to me by a very nice friend, and on the days I feed veggies like zucchini, carrots, etc. I will grind up those with the food grinder and mix it in too.

Thanks, Will.

I feed this to all my tortoises and box turtles (leopard, manouria, YF, RF, Aldabran, desert, sulcata. For some I also add in the occasional fruit)


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## Kapidolo Farms

I'm sorta thinking we ought to make a thread for tortoise chefs. Post pictures of salad as fed and the process used to make it. I see people posting all the food they eat in social media. A tortoise salad thread could be fun.


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## wellington

Can I add in a couple requests? Let us know what species you feed your mixtures too and with any of the specialty foods like Mazuri or the Purina Layena, etc, mention how often you feed these items. 
@Will love the idea of the tortoise chef thread. Seen it. It should help a lot of members with food ideas. 
I think Julia Child would love it if you get drunk and spit when you talk, while mixing the foods LOL


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## Kapidolo Farms

I got ahold of some used crickets tubs made by vision, the cage manufacture. They are all about 25 x 50 inches on the outside base. They all have a lip that gives the top rim/edge some structural integrity. They are variable by an inch or two though.

I made them into enclosed enclosures (mostly all done) here are some images associated with making them into enclosures.

The first image is looking through from one end to the other. I put a door at each end for access. This was done so I could fully use the 4' x 8' span of the industrial shelving I placed in the garage and shown elsewhere.

Next are images of a closed and open access door. You can see screw heads for both a 2 x 2 inch wooden rim that I used to replace the variable plastic rim that was part of the mold. You can also see a hinge and door jam line of screws holding 1 x 2 structural wood pieces so the door is not stressing the plastic with use.

The last two images show the double bulkhead system I'm using more and more. The water tray has a 3/4 bulkhead that sets over and into a 1 1/4 inch bulkhead in the enclosure floor. That way I can drain and refill the water dish right in place. The enclosure as a whole can also drain. Now I only need one hose/pipe to run from the bottom for drainage. I can dump much water into the enclosure for plants and humidity without swamping it so much.

I still need to place the lighting and lid. The lid is just 1/2 inch foam board held with double sided tape. I made it two pieces so that a can 'crack' the lid for heat escape and air circulation. I'm using two T5HO lights, one for 14/10 light cycle, and one for mid "day" brightness using a zoomed forest UV tube.

As the tubs were free the total cost per enclosure is under $100. The tubs retail new for $185. I looking to find or buy more used ones. At one time @cowboyken had some but shipping was cost prohibitive.

The first one took about 8 hours of fussing around. The last one took about an hour -all the sorting out "how to" was done.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Post 365 was done from my phone where all the images are and I was too slow to have edits saved. @Cowboy_Ken

It took a few minutes per enclosure to clean/sanitize the tubs. I used plain dish soap and water, rinse and dry, then bleach on wet surface so it would cover better, then rinse and dry, then ammonia, rinse and dry, and lastly hydrogen peroxide, rinse and dry. I used a one gallon garden sprayer for each cleaning agent application, it goes pretty fast that way. I let each cleaner sit for about ten minutes or longer, then rinsed well.

By the time the hydrogen peroxide is used, the 'no bubbling' is a good indication that all dirt and grime is gone. It is also a good sanitizer onto itself.


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## Kapidolo Farms

How to make a forest.
1) collect sone foresty looking things
2) dig a narrow hole
3) put the foresty looking things in the hole


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## Kapidolo Farms

That other image.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Some detail about the fake forest. I used Giant Canary Reed grass this time. I stripped the lower leaves off as they would get buried. The tortoises don't eat this grass. These will only last several months, the palm fronds last much longer but none are available right now. I have several more 'trees' to plant to make it more foresty. I had an easier time digging as I used the holes from the last few applications of grass and palm. I cut the tops off the taller stalks and jammed them nto the hole so that's why there is bushyness near the ground. Once more dense the tortoise mostly just go sit there and watch the world.

There are squirrels, rabbits and many kinds of birds running around in the yard and they too like hanging out in this little forest.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Those cicada grubs.


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## Anyfoot

Will said:


> Those cicada grubs.


Mmm. Erosa food.


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## Yvonne G

Will said:


> Those cicada grubs.
> 
> View attachment 206722



We have a giant flying beetle here called a fruit/fig beetle. He's iridescent green/black and the colors are actually quite beautiful. They sound like humming birds when they fly close to you. Well, reason I brought it up is because they love to "nest" in my manure pile, and in the past as I was digging up old, decomposed manure for gardening, I would uncover the larva of these beetles. It's huge, even bigger than yours in the picture. Funny, I never thought of it as turtle/Manouria/YF/RF food. What a treat that would have been for them.


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## Kapidolo Farms

A couple of images of converted vision cages.


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## Kapidolo Farms

A couple of images of converted vision cages. The conversion is not so complicated. I remove the screen air areas at the back and top and use aquarium sealer to glue 1/2 foam board to that opening with the shiny side in. I use plastic closet rod hangers/ends glued to the inside (Liquid nails) and then span that with 1/2 inch PVC and hang the light from the pipe. I have used fence boards and 2 x 4 to increase the height along the front. I drill one large bulkhead fitting into what will be the low corner, connected to a drain hose. I use coco fiber mat so that loose substrate does not clog the drain. I use a slightly smaller bulkhead fitting in a water dish that fits into the larger bulkhead fitting in the floor. I use a plug fitting for the water dish. Each morning I dump a few gallons of water at the high point and it works its way in the substrate to the low point and drains. I un-plug the water dish and poopy water goes away, a quick rinse, and re-plug and then overfill the water dish. I use tiles for food plates, when they get soiled I run them under hot water and wipe them off, put them right back. I have a heat panel in there for when it gets cold, set at 85F right now, I think it may have turned on once or twice. I keep the end's of the doors open about an 1.8 inch for air exchange throughout the day and night. The things that need to plug in go through the smallest hole possible in the top, I did not plug the air gap there. RH is now never less than 89%. The lights right now are providing a good temp gradient. The tiles, (just like substrate in the outside world) absorb energy from the light and attain 98F at a peak. 

I have a smaller one set up for six neonate M. impressa that I noted in another thread http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...cies-at-least-in-the-usa.159742/#post-1511651

Costs are associated with getting the least expensive Vision cage you can off Craig's list. One panel of the foam board is less than $10.00, the glues are about 5$ each. I bought the coco mat from Amazon, I got a large roll. but you can use the end of season discounted ones from a local super store (lowe's, Home Depot, target, wall mart, whatever). The bulkhead fitting from Aqautic Eco Systems (now someone else but the search term still works.) Tyler (Tortoise Supply) sells square plant saucers or you might find them at a local plant nursery. Lighting and heating is at your discretion.


----------



## Anyfoot

Nice set up Will. Plenty of moisture in there. Can't wait to see how these leopards grow. No one tort is dominating that pile of food .


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## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> Nice set up Will. Plenty of moisture in there. Can't wait to see how these leopards grow. No one tort is dominating that pile of food .


That's the funny thing, there is absolutely no ring, just slow expansion all the way around each scute. It is difficult to 'see' growth by evidence of observation of growth seams. But they are growing.

I actually drain water dish first, then dump the few gallons at the high corner, that purges the small poops out of the discharge hose. I'm using 5/8 garden hose and it clogs remarkably easy.


----------



## Anyfoot

I've noticed this with my redfoots. The areoles seem to expand for a while, soon as the bone under the scute starts to thicken then growth rings follow. 
I couldn't for the life of me work out how my homeana were growing, I didn't see any growth rings for at least 6 months. These start off with the sunken scute look just like yellowfoots. Mine look smooth now and growth rings are appearing. I can only think it's the same principle for both types of tortoises(sunken scute look or not), the bone under the scute thickened to make them look smooth then growth rings follow. With the redfoots(that don't start with sunken scute look) at around 6 months old the bone thickens giving the look of raised scutes, then growth rings follow, as the tort grows they start smoothing off again. I'm hoping your Leo's do the same, I'll bet the transition of bone thickening to growth rings appearing is the most critical time to keep moist and humid so the bone can push the keratin to smooth off again. Some of my redfoots have gone through a really ugly look at around 6 months and now are smoothing back out.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> I've noticed this with my redfoots. The areoles seem to expand for a while, soon as the bone under the scute starts to thicken then growth rings follow.
> I couldn't for the life of me work out how my homeana were growing, I didn't see any growth rings for at least 6 months. These start off with the sunken scute look just like yellowfoots. Mine look smooth now and growth rings are appearing. I can only think it's the same principle for both types of tortoises(sunken scute look or not), the bone under the scute thickened to make them look smooth then growth rings follow. With the redfoots(that don't start with sunken scute look) at around 6 months old the bone thickens giving the look of raised scutes, then growth rings follow, as the tort grows they start smoothing off again. I'm hoping your Leo's do the same, I'll bet the transition of bone thickening to growth rings appearing is the most critical time to keep moist and humid so the bone can push the keratin to smooth off again. Some of my redfoots have gone through a really ugly look at around 6 months and now are smoothing back out.




Back to the little impressa, of the many adults I have seen necropsied, they have large fenestra (gap of bone underlying the scute) almost like pancake tortoises. I'm thinking they don't not require calcium as much, but can do with less. To that end I am adding calcium to what they eat to try and make sure it is not a growth limiting nutrient. I'll try some macro photos of each.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Another Vision cage up and running. same basic set up. double drain, one for the whole enclosure and one for the water tray, which they soil within minutes of being cleaned.


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## Kapidolo Farms

This will probably get 'lost' here in Live Naked People, but I am at a quandary to know where better to put it.

I have a few species of forest type tortoises, as neonates. Adults are good at walking to food plates to get food, but the neonates just don't seem to get it or want to do that. Could be a way to avoid being preyed upon, or otherwise just a cautious way to not get stepped on. No matter, they are not adventurous in regards to traveling to the food plate, even when it's just 4 or more inches away. 

So, with the small Pyxis planicauda and now Manouria impressa, I have been putting a small stack of food on a leaf (dry magnolia leaf or fresh mulberry leaf) and putting the food right in front of them, where ever they sit when the lights come on. They gobble it up. They move around during the day, and days when I've had a chance to watch them off and on throughout the day, they go and "steal" other tortoises food. But no worries, I am now putting more leaf plates of food in the enclosure than there are tortoises. They are all growing a noticeable bit better now.


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## Anyfoot

Have you tried putting a wiggly worm 4" away. I'm curious if seeing edible live food would be enough to coax them out of hiding.


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## Yvonne G

For the real shy ones (my experience with 'shy' is with baby box turtles) I place the food right at the mouth of the hiding place.


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## Kapidolo Farms

@Yvonne G @Anyfoot I'll try some worms, that's an interesting idea, maybe isopods too. Come to think of it, I put isopods in there before and don't see them any more. I don't have any 'hide's' in this set-up, but many large Magnolia leaves, large enough for a small tortoise to have a choice of many places to hide. I'll wait on the worms until I have time to sit and take a picture.


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## Anyfoot

My homes hingebacks have half the enclosure covered and half out in the open( it's all indoors). It's about 80sq ft total. This year they have opted to lay eggs in the covered half. I've left all eggs in the ground. I've noticed the half that they choose to lay eggs in is literally crawling with bugs, Isopods and god knows what other bugs that resided there. The floor is crawling with bugs 
My substrate is dried leaves and an apple tree that I shredded plus some orchid bark. The same substrate throughout the 80sq ft. I know the choice to lay eggs in the covered area is riddled with bugs, have they chose that area because of the food source. Yes there are other things like lighting and temps, But is the choice because of natural food source. 
Why not lay the eggs next to the food slate out in the open???? 
I think they live off natural bugs etc more than we think in the early days/weeks/months or even year. 
My hinges love a good lively worm or a scampering isopod.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

North San Diego County (more for you than me)? Want to work with many really cool tortoises? I need help for a few days the week before the T-Day holiday - THE WEEK BEFORE. I pay pretty decent wages, even for training. please call me with your voice at 215-483-7675. After all we are going to actually spend time in the same tortoise Farm for a few training sessions, so don't be shy (NO txt or PM). Will


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

I'm a five year member today, wow.


----------



## Grandpa Turtle 144

Great ![emoji217]



I Thought you might like to look up this story ?


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Wow, I see the last post here from Grandpa turtle 144 was in early November. 

Been spending much time on getting things done rather than talking about them. The https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/w...ry-and-garden-published-nutrient-list.161833/ thread is a 'doing something' thread, I am working on sorting out how much romaine or other leaf lettuce can actually work out with a continual and modest addition of other things. Garden weeds are great, but unless they are from your own yard always iffy. A close (geographical) friend reported to me losing many very long term tortoises when something shifted and an also very long term source for hibiscus was sprayed with something and the tortoises perished.

I have moved more and more to USDA certified organic. The grass pellet I use are such, and most of the produce. I eat this way too. I can tell most apples from apples that are certified just by their taste. Actual certification in and of itself is a strong indication but still no guarantee. It means the particular producer of the crop did not spray, it does little to help when the neighboring farmer does spray on a breezy day. The crops themselves are often not inspected, but rather the practices used on the farm get scrutinized. 

Anyhow, I am still offering USDA certified Organic Moringa, and NON-sprayed (yet not certified) Cactus Chips. I now also have USDA certified Alfalfa pellets. Respond here on this thread in the next few days, say until the end of 2017, and I will send a small sample of the alfalfa. Private detail can be PM'ed here on TFO, but a 'hey I'd like some" here is needed for the sample.

So, no, I don't suggest that you feed Alfalfa pellets as a stand alone diet item. But mixed with grocery or garden greens to increase variety and range. So far the Egyptians and Pancakes have been most excited, feeding reaction observation (they are using their nails to write graffiti on the enclosure walls). Alfalfa in its native range is a diet item for russians BTW.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

I mentioned this a few times, here it is. A simple radiant heat source. I put a 1 x 2 foot tile up on some pices of 2 x 4. Place the heat pad on top, put two 1 x 1 tiles on top. I put the thermostat sensor on the bottom side of the 2 x 4 tile and set it for about 90F. All of 20 minutes to set up. The one already on the salad tray is telling the others that the salad in "no good" stay away.


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> I mentioned this a few times, here it is. A simple radiant heat source. I put a 1 x 2 foot tile up on some pices of 2 x 4. Place the heat pad on top, put two 1 x 1 tiles on top. I put the thermostat sensor on the bottom side of the 2 x 4 tile and set it for about 90F. All of 20 minutes to set up. The one already on the salad tray is telling the others that the salad in "no good" stay away.
> View attachment 227305


Will, they look stunning as usual. How have you raised them. Not the diet, I understand your approach regarding diet, and one I'm going to take. 
How do you provide UVB, do you provide a basking spot or just an ambient temp? 
What about hydration techniques, do you rely on your very wet and humid environments, or do you soak them aswell?


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Anyfoot said:


> Will, they look stunning as usual. How have you raised them. Not the diet, I understand your approach regarding diet, and one I'm going to take.
> How do you provide UVB, do you provide a basking spot or just an ambient temp?
> What about hydration techniques, do you rely on your very wet and humid environments, or do you soak them aswell?




One of the two T5 HO tubes is a ZooMed 5.0, but as you can see it's about 8 inches away, and directly over food, the other light is BlueMax T5 HO. I do not provide a focus of heat, only ambient ranging from low of the high 70'sF to a high or 98F. There is a large shallow dish that they can use 24/7, and they do as evidenced by the constant supply of poop in the water. But I don't know they all have figured out pooping or drinking in the water so on weekends I give them a few cycles in a shallow bus tray like waiters use. One cycle is not enough, as I don't know who takes time to adjust as opposed to those who drink and poop right away, so the lagers get a second and third chance at fresh water. The enclosure floor space is 3 x 6 foot. Before winter hen the ambient was high do the climate they would be pretty dispersed in there, now they spend much time under the radiant heat area. There is also a traditional radiant heat panel at one end, which provides the gradient. It is on the wall right above the water tray, so that keeps higher humidity as a gradient to a much lesser extent than the heat. I had many small hides throughout which are much less commonly used as they get bigger, and the room ambient dropped.

I find the use of just a 25 watt CHE gives enough of a spot of heat over and above the other sources to be used in other enclosures by other species that are more or less set up the same, and I will add one to this enclosure as well. Especially when it is placed over a dark ceramic tile or slate. 

All that and, about once a week weather and time permitting they are placed in the bus trays and outside for a few hours. That min temp for that activity is 60F in the the sun or 70F in the shade (cloud cover and a porch overhang as 'shade' for this purpose). I place a double board over one end of the tray for spot shade. I often also put a pile of grass in the tray and it's on a slope, so water and browse are there. They mostly sit fully exposed to the sun for a short time, then crawl under the grass, shaded or full sun. The temps and shade criteria is what we used for Galops when I was at the philly zoo. Direct sun at 60F and they would stretch out to increase surface area, at 70F they just did their 'normal' walking around. They were put in anight house daily, so outside time was a best practice when possible for other husbandry needs, like cleaning the inside enclosure..

I do this out side time for several radiated I am raising to a larger size and some Egyptians too, which have a similar set-uped enclosure. The Egyptians are not on as wet a substrate.


----------



## Anyfoot

Thanks Will. Very interesting. Think I need to up my game with the vitamin side of things.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Here is the label from the chicken layer food. All organic now, I stopped using the Sunfresh labelled product in preference to the all organic. Sunfresh was the vegetarian line from Purina. More and more all organic is making its way into my tortoise kitchen.


----------



## Anyfoot

Never seen your radiated Will


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

These are a few.


----------



## ColaCarbonaria

Beautiful. Second pic makes me laugh, she looks like you shorted her on something she was lookin for![emoji23]


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

2017 Kapidolo Farms conservation contributions.

$100.00 https://www.gofundme.com/save-the-albera-testudo-h-hermanni

$79.80 Direct purchase of 100 nano chips for implanting wild Indotestudo forsetnii

$100 https://experiment.com/projects/conservation-efforts-to-protect-endangered-turtles-of-sulawesi

$900 TTPG life memberships paid directly to TTPG in consideration of lower price on captive bred Manouria emys phayrei. http://www.ttpg.org/


Total: $1179.80, considerably more than my commitment to pass on the 3% saved on sales with the use of 'friends and family'. Money matters, voting with your dollars is everyday, not just in a booth during November.


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## Kapidolo Farms

At 16 months. Yeah.


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## Kapidolo Farms

From a half pad to bite-able, what I mean by chopping so there is skin on only one side of the bite. This new variety has great chopping and grinding texture and very few 'pores' so glochid count is very low. Thanks 'Mulberry Angel'.


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## Kapidolo Farms

I tend to be critical of many things, it's an inward looking eye as well. There are a few web pages I have found where I close off the page dumbfounded by my critical eye getting a vacation.

Chris Leone's Hermanni page https://www.hermannihaven.com/ and the mystery person behind http://startortoises.net/ have done a great job building a coherent source of information. 

Part of what makes both these pages so good is that they both stick to the facts, and explore edges of information without calling them facts. It is like hearing someone thinking out-loud and hearing their own critical thought on what they are thinking. It's a great deal of work to deal with making a web page at all. Keeping it simple and functional can be a challenge because there are many things 'bling' that can be added. 

If you have not looked at these pages in awhile they deserve another look-see.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

So many folks post images of feces hoping for help in diet adjustment, clinical direction, or out of some latent $hit fetish?

This is a wonderfully formed dump from an adult Kinixys erosa. It has taken awhile of diet component adjustment to have them produce such wonderful turds, butt here you have in all its glory - a well formed forest Kinixys poop


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## Kapidolo Farms

I don't know why one image got flipped? These guys are on their backs to hold still long enough to manage my phone, the PIT tag reader, and the scale. These are the two being offered. One is already sold. They are essentially identical.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Here are two xrays showing the females Mep and camera image of one weird egg. From my phone. I'll log in and follow-up with the narrative from my computer.


----------



## wellington

Whoa, that's crazy.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Both the x-rays were taken in early April as you can see on the x-ray, Phae is already with fully developed eggs and Medea is not there, some egg shadow can be seen. 2nd week of April with Phae on and off the nest mound I gave her oxytocin, after a few days of elevated calcium intake. She did not lay any, time to just wait it out.

Medea took over the nest mound as Phae abandon it, yet Darth was still staying clear of Phae. Media abandon the nest mound and started dribbling eggs out, so I gave her oxytocin and she dropped many eggs. Darth started mating with Medea alot, but was still leaving Phae alone.

Phae still did not drop eggs. I tried the oxytocin on her again, and not eggs. A few days later she started dribbling eggs out and I gathered many up including that weird indented one at about 9 o:clock in the xray. That is the last of the three images. There is a rope of calcium attached to it, several of her eggs were like that, yet that does not appear on the x-ray as best as I can tell. 

I am left to wonder if the rope formed after the xray, or was somehow preventing her from laying the eggs, as they could have been attached to each other. At least three eggs came out that were attached to each other.

At this point I am convinced they need a somewhat higher ambient humidity and worth to lay than my current setup provides. I'm thinking a larger heated nght house with misting and a greenhouse roof is needed.

Darth is now busy with Phae. It seems their behavior to each other clears time of the boot knocking schedule to let the females lay eggs.


----------



## wellington

Will I thought these two pics I took from the first X-ray pic might have been the odd egg pictured?
In my first pic the darkest egg seems to have a stem. The second pic there is the odd shaped egg right in the center looking to be getting squashed and also has a little stem part top side. 
Could these be the odd eggs or just shadowing?


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## Kapidolo Farms

That's really cool @wellington . However I still don't feel comfortable reading the x-ray that well. That multiple indent egg in your second blow-up is the weird egg from my phone image. She is still pooping out eggs and I'm still making several trips through the enclosure a day to get them and place them in the incubator. I hope I get some to hatch.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

*Food Items Quality*

I buy in bulk to get low prices and re-sell for a lower price than is often found for small quantities offered by other vendors. I use all the food items that I sell, so turnover if high, nothing is sitting around for very long before it ends up with you. I keep small quantities of every purchase stored as I would expect most buyers would store them (as directed on the package) so I can see their 'shelf life'.

I am NOT a USDA certified provider or processor of organic pet foods.

I buy what is packaged as USDA certified organic diet items for human consumption and resell them for animal consumption. I am NOT a USDA certified re-packaging facility so I can not claim the items are USDA certified in the package that you have purchased. However I do not alter the items in any way, shape, or form, that would cause the integrity of the food item to not carry the quality of the original supplier. Some items I may package with moisture and/or oxygen packs to maintain freshness for extended periods of storage time.

Some items are acquired while the producer is transitioning from a non-organic growing system to an approved organic system. This will be mentioned in the description when posted for sale and/or on the packaging that holds the diet item.

Some items I produce myself and I do so adhering to the principles and rules that govern organic farming systems. This will be in the description when posted for sale and/or on the packaging that holds the diet item.

I uncovered this issue while searching out to create a wholly USDA certified organic tortoise food. There are many strange perceptions even in the Organic Foods 'realm'.

I approached a few certification vendors and got this one response "Thank you for contacting CCOF. From an organic certification perspective, products considered “pet food” and “pet treats” are different. We do not certify pet food because the organic requirements conflict with the AAFCO requirements for pet food. We do certify pet treats made with agricultural ingredients. Below is basic information on the requirements for pet treats. . I’ve attached the National Organic Standards along with information on CCOF’s services." CCOF did not know what pets I was seeking to make food for, nor did they ask.

CCOF is one USDA approved compliance and certification company that operates in California, there are others. There are indeed many certified organic dog and cats foods in many stores. This certification company, CCOF, has decided to not do this kind of certification. AAFCO is https://www.aafco.org/ Associated of American Feed Control officials.

Livestock feed has a whole section for organic, as what the livestock is fed effects whether the resulting meat, eggs, or dairy can be certified organic. Tortoises are pets, not livestock.

I have sorted out a tortoise feed that has no grain or grain by-products, has a 20:1 C: P ratio and I have grown some holdback leo's with it. More work to do to make a it available.


----------



## MichaelaW

Will said:


> *Food Items Quality*
> 
> I buy in bulk to get low prices and re-sell for a lower price than is often found for small quantities offered by other vendors. I use all the food items that I sell, so turnover if high, nothing is sitting around for very long before it ends up with you. I keep small quantities of every purchase stored as I would expect most buyers would store them (as directed on the package) so I can see their 'shelf life'.
> 
> I am NOT a USDA certified provider or processor of organic pet foods.
> 
> I buy what is packaged as USDA certified organic diet items for human consumption and resell them for animal consumption. I am NOT a USDA certified re-packaging facility so I can not claim the items are USDA certified in the package that you have purchased. However I do not alter the items in any way, shape, or form, that would cause the integrity of the food item to not carry the quality of the original supplier. Some items I may package with moisture and/or oxygen packs to maintain freshness for extended periods of storage time.
> 
> Some items are acquired while the producer is transitioning from a non-organic growing system to an approved organic system. This will be mentioned in the description when posted for sale and/or on the packaging that holds the diet item.
> 
> Some items I produce myself and I do so adhering to the principles and rules that govern organic farming systems. This will be in the description when posted for sale and/or on the packaging that holds the diet item.
> 
> I uncovered this issue while searching out to create a wholly USDA certified organic tortoise food. There are many strange perceptions even in the Organic Foods 'realm'.
> 
> I approached a few certification vendors and got this one response "Thank you for contacting CCOF. From an organic certification perspective, products considered “pet food” and “pet treats” are different. We do not certify pet food because the organic requirements conflict with the AAFCO requirements for pet food. We do certify pet treats made with agricultural ingredients. Below is basic information on the requirements for pet treats. . I’ve attached the National Organic Standards along with information on CCOF’s services." CCOF did not know what pets I was seeking to make food for, nor did they ask.
> 
> CCOF is one USDA approved compliance and certification company that operates in California, there are others. There are indeed many certified organic dog and cats foods in many stores. This certification company, CCOF, has decided to not do this kind of certification. AAFCO is https://www.aafco.org/ Associated of American Feed Control officials.
> 
> Livestock feed has a whole section for organic, as what the livestock is fed effects whether the resulting meat, eggs, or dairy can be certified organic. Tortoises are pets, not livestock.
> 
> I have sorted out a tortoise feed that has no grain or grain by-products, has a 20:1 C: P ratio and I have grown some holdback leo's with it. More work to do to make a it available.


Awesome, Will! I will be following this with great interest.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/forstens-conservation-is-on-going.167939/


*Conservation Efforts to Protect Endangered Turtles of Sulawesi*
Lab Note #15 by Christine Light ● Like?

*Project Update!*
The project has continued to move forward over the last year! We did have some setbacks, including delays in getting the Indonesian research permit which resulted in personnel changes. Because of these delays, Andrea Currylow had other commitments that she needed to focus on she was unable to continue as the Project Field Coordinator. But I am happy to say that Angela Simms, who is a PhD Candidate at Macquarie University in Sydney, Australia has recently joined the team and will head up Field Operations. We were approved for the research permit in January 2018 and we began population surveys in March and they continued through the end of April. We are heading back in September to continue population surveys and to begin work on the captive breeding program at Tadulako University. Please say tuned for more Project Updates and also please check out and "like" the project's FB page https://www.facebook.com/SulawesiChelonianConservation/


----------



## Maggie3fan

I also bit on the naked people tickle. But I semi know Will and kinda didn't buy it. Plus my sister has GREAT carpenter skills. I am glad for you Will, I know the long trip you made to get where you are.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

One of the 2016 cohort holdbacks next to a 10 inch paper plate. NFS lets wait and see what sex they show, maybe a few more years. They are big enough, they'll go outside next year. Darth and Phae's nenotes.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

This is Sam. He was a pet to Julian Duvall, the soon to retire President/CEO of the San Diego Botancial Gardens. WAS his pet in the early 1960's and is his pet again. Sam spent 40 years with another keeper in southern California when he outgrew the home that Julian grew up in. Their reunion was a fluke chance of fate.

One of the SDTTS meeting was the full story of Sam, and his caretakers over his life starting with his purchase for $50 as a neonate imported directly from the Galapagos.

Julian's wife, Leslie, wrote a children's book about it. "Too Big To Lose..." find it on Amazon.


----------



## Yvonne G

Will said:


> One of the 2016 cohort holdbacks next to a 10 inch paper plate. NFS lets wait and see what sex they show, maybe a few more years. They are big enough, they'll go outside next year. Darth and Phae's nenotes.
> View attachment 248226



Just goes to show what the kind of diet Will feeds and the environment he keeps them in makes such a very big difference. This is a clutchmate of the above shown tortoise, at HALF THE SIZE!!!!!! (shown in a 10" plate):




I'm so embarrassed! I can't get another Vision cage too soon!!!!!


----------



## MichaelaW

Will said:


> One of the 2016 cohort holdbacks next to a 10 inch paper plate. NFS lets wait and see what sex they show, maybe a few more years. They are big enough, they'll go outside next year. Darth and Phae's nenotes.
> View attachment 248226


Beautiful!


----------



## ColaCarbonaria

MichaelaW said:


> Beautiful!



Great job on your Forsteni presentation at NRBE this weekend Michaela!


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Large herbivores must select food from a wide variety of plant parts, species, and strains. These differ in nutritional value (protein, carbohydrate, etc.), toughness, spinosity, etc. Even greater differences are found in types and concentrations of secondary compounds. *Every plant produces its own set of secondary chemical compounds, which to a great extent are unique to it or its species. Ingestion of natural concentrations of these compounds can lead to either death or severe physiological impairment. The ubiquitous nature of these compounds would make herbivory impossible unless animals had mechanisms for degrading and excreting them.* An animal displaying no obvious symptoms of poisoning is not free of the problem of ridding itself of toxic compounds; if it is eating plants, it almost certainly has this problem. Herbivores are capable of detoxifying and eliminating secondary compounds. Limitations of these mechanisms force mammalian herbivores to consume a variety of plant foods at any one time, to treat new foods with caution, to ingest small amounts on the first encounter, and to sample food continuously. Selection of foods is based on learning in response to adverse internal physiological effects, and herbivores probably cannot predict these from the smell or taste of new foods. Herbivores prefer to eat familiar foods and can seek out and consume foods that rectify specific nutritional deficiencies induced by detoxification. They should prefer to feed on foods that contain small amounts of secondary compounds, and their body size and searching strategies should be adapted to optimize the number of types of foods available with respect to the total amount of food that can be eaten and will be present in the future. Natural selection can increase the efficiency of degrading particular secondary compounds. Specialist herbivores, like koala and mountain viscacha, are expected where a large amount of several related toxic foods is present in a year-round supply. However, few large herbivores are specialized on such a restricted range of foods.

*Strategies in Herbivory by Mammals: The Role of Plant Secondary Compounds*

W. J. Freeland, and Daniel H. Janzen
*The American Naturalist*
Volume 108, Number 961 | May - Jun., 1974

In other words all plants have some kind of deleterious compounds in them and many animals that eat the plants have a way to make it not be deadly. It is what is sometimes called evolutionary warfare.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

https://www.vetexotic.theclinics.com/article/S1094-9194(17)30173-1/references

Anecdotal, empirical or evidence based?


----------



## MichaelaW

ColaCarbonaria said:


> Great job on your Forsteni presentation at NRBE this weekend Michaela!


Thank you! My legs nearly gave out I was so nervous though, haha!


----------



## ColaCarbonaria

The first article made me think of 2 things and I don’t know if I’m even thinking in th right direction but pothos was one. I remember it being ‘toxic’ 20 years ago to being described more recently as an ‘irritant’ but clearly it does something for them because even fat, little well-fed jungle tortoises mow it down when it’s in their enclosure. Mushrooms also came to mind. I have very sandy soil and when I plant something I use a mix of top soil and mushroom compost. In addition to the nutrients the compost provides it also helps with keeping the nematodes away. So as crumby as mushrooms are nutritionally could they help herbivores battle some type of parasite bombardments? Don’t get me wrong I don’t think shrooms are a dewormer but maybe more of a Tums? Idk just thoughts. On the second article I registered w th site and it still wouldn’t give me the article. So I couldn’t read it, I’m sure it’s an operator error somehow.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Unlike birds of a feather, who flock together,
tortoise gatherings are not a pleasure.
They admit to always being spurned,
and never seem to be that concerned.
Surly and distant, and not easy to please,
they live alone under the trees.

Perhaps they have low self-esteem?
Never gracing the covers of magazines!

Slowly and carefully they dawdle along,
not even a whistle or a silly song.
Just a squeaky sound when they see a mate,
almost sprinting in a wobbly gait.
In lonesome pods, without a care,
antisocial reptiles, in protective gear.
Elusive hulks in patterned shells,
they don’t know each other very well!

Me thinks, inside they’re just squishy and soft,
unaccustomed,
to being mocked!

©AllysoAlly2018


----------



## TammyJ

I'm sure they would not like to know
How you have brought them to your show
And made us all take careful note
Of their uncaring, how remote
They so prefer to be, and thus
Make perfect idiots of us
Who simply cannot comprehend
That they don't wish to be our friend.


----------



## Pearly

Will said:


> Unlike birds of a feather, who flock together,
> tortoise gatherings are not a pleasure.
> They admit to always being spurned,
> and never seem to be that concerned.
> Surly and distant, and not easy to please,
> they live alone under the trees.
> 
> Perhaps they have low self-esteem?
> Never gracing the covers of magazines!
> 
> Slowly and carefully they dawdle along,
> not even a whistle or a silly song.
> Just a squeaky sound when they see a mate,
> almost sprinting in a wobbly gait.
> In lonesome pods, without a care,
> antisocial reptiles, in protective gear.
> Elusive hulks in patterned shells,
> they don’t know each other very well!
> 
> Me thinks, inside they’re just squishy and soft,
> unaccustomed,
> to being mocked!
> 
> [emoji767]AllysoAlly2018



LOVE IT!!!!! Would like to share this poem with my kids if you don’t mind


----------



## Pearly

TammyJ said:


> I'm sure they would not like to know
> How you have brought them to your show
> And made us all take careful note
> Of their uncaring, how remote
> They so prefer to be, and thus
> Make perfect idiots of us
> Who simply cannot comprehend
> That they don't wish to be our friend.



Love this one too!


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Pearly said:


> LOVE IT!!!!! Would like to share this poem with my kids if you don’t mind


Of course, I posted the author as well. Found it on a blog.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

I added the slide deck for my upcoming presentation at the Turtle and Tortoise Preservation Group's 2018 conference at my web-page www.KapidoloFarms.com as a blog post for this date, 8 November 2018. 

Why not just put it here? I'm looking to build traffic.


----------



## Maro2Bear

Will said:


> I added the slide deck for my upcoming presentation at the Turtle and Tortoise Preservation Group's 2018 conference at my web-page www.KapidoloFarms.com as a blog post for this date, 8 November 2018.
> 
> Why not just put it here? I'm looking to build traffic.




Thanks...glanced at all 35 pages. The proof is in the pudding!


----------



## Anyfoot

Will said:


> I added the slide deck for my upcoming presentation at the Turtle and Tortoise Preservation Group's 2018 conference at my web-page www.KapidoloFarms.com as a blog post for this date, 8 November 2018.
> 
> Why not just put it here? I'm looking to build traffic.


Just had a quick glance. Looks good and I look forward to reading your entire page.


----------



## Yvonne G

Maro2Bear said:


> Thanks...glanced at all 35 pages. The proof is in the pudding!


What? When I looked at it I saw nothing but the Title. I clicked on the title and the same page comes up.


----------



## Yvonne G

Ok, I got it. First one has to click on 
*2018 TURTLE AND TORTOISE PRESERVATION GROUP PRESENTATION.*

and then one has to click on
KapidoloFarmsTTPG

These electronic things are not so easy for this old person.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Hi All,

So much change going on, So It's still Will here as Kapidolo Farms, but if I have to pay-to-play, I thought having the hobby/business name would be better, so now the posts are as Kapidolo Farms. Kapidolo, BTW, is a Malagasy name for the flat tailed spider tortoise, _Pxyis planicauda._

Another big change, FaceBook has decided to enforce their policy of no live animal sales, so as many pages seek to bypass that by going from public to private most first time buyers as well as scammers will be closed out of animals sales. This is an effort to keep rats out of the animal rooms. Most pages that are based on selling still exists but by invitation only.

Maybe there will be an uptick in TFO's market place? or some of the actual webpages for such. But for sure the person who only knows the internet by using facebook will be lost for quit some time. 

Trade shows and internet sales of food stuff are going up quite a bit. I'm able to buy in large enough bulk now that I can even beat the one pound price of those I buy from. Maybe I am okay with a smaller margin??


----------



## PA2019

Kapidolo Farms said:


> Hi All,
> 
> So much change going on, So It's still Will here as Kapidolo Farms, but if I have to pay-to-play, I thought having the hobby/business name would be better, so now the posts are as Kapidolo Farms. Kapidolo, BTW, is a Malagasy name for the flat tailed spider tortoise, _Pxyis planicauda._
> 
> Another big change, FaceBook has decided to enforce their policy of no live animal sales, so as many pages seek to bypass that by going from public to private most first time buyers as well as scammers will be closed out of animals sales. This is an effort to keep rats out of the animal rooms. Most pages that are based on selling still exists but by invitation only.
> 
> Maybe there will be an uptick in TFO's market place? or some of the actual webpages for such. But for sure the person who only knows the internet by using facebook will be lost for quit some time.
> 
> Trade shows and internet sales of food stuff are going up quite a bit. I'm able to buy in large enough bulk now that I can even beat the one pound price of those I buy from. Maybe I am okay with a smaller margin??



@Kapidolo Farms Did Nickolas turtle/tortoise classified page get removed or turn private? It was a great way to connect local breeders who don't have a large online presence.


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## Toddrickfl1

PA2019 said:


> @Kapidolo Farms Did Nickolas turtle/tortoise classified page get removed or turn private? It was a great way to connect local breeders who don't have a large online presence.


Nope, just checked it's gone


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## Maro2Bear

Kapidolo Farms said:


> Hi All,
> 
> So much change going on, So It's still Will here as Kapidolo Farms, but if I have to pay-to-play, I thought having the hobby/business name would be better, so now the posts are as Kapidolo Farms. Kapidolo, BTW, is a Malagasy name for the flat tailed spider tortoise, _Pxyis planicauda._
> 
> Another big change, FaceBook has decided to enforce their policy of no live animal sales, so as many pages seek to bypass that by going from public to private most first time buyers as well as scammers will be closed out of animals sales. This is an effort to keep rats out of the animal rooms. Most pages that are based on selling still exists but by invitation only.
> 
> Maybe there will be an uptick in TFO's market place? or some of the actual webpages for such. But for sure the person who only knows the internet by using facebook will be lost for quit some time.
> 
> Trade shows and internet sales of food stuff are going up quite a bit. I'm able to buy in large enough bulk now that I can even beat the one pound price of those I buy from. Maybe I am okay with a smaller margin??




FACEBOOK? We have TFO !


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## Kapidolo Farms

Turtle and tortoise classified is no called turtle and tortoise hobbyist, is a closed group, and 'owned' by Ronnie Hare I think.
https://www.facebook.com/justatwinturbo . Ii's by invitation only, with the threat that if you invite someone and they cause problems, they and you will be removed. So if you know Nick or Ronnie, ask them for an invite. I invited people I have done actual business with, no others.


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## PA2019

Kapidolo Farms said:


> Turtle and tortoise classified is no called turtle and tortoise hobbyist, is a closed group, and 'owned' by Ronnie Hare I think.
> https://www.facebook.com/justatwinturbo . Ii's by invitation only, with the threat that if you invite someone and they cause problems, they and you will be removed. So if you know Nick or Ronnie, ask them for an invite. I invited people I have done actual business with, no others.



Thanks, I was talking with Ronnie about this last night. They are also starting a group on the MeWe app.


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## Kapidolo Farms

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=430218471062184





an experiment


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## Kapidolo Farms

https://mewe.com/group/5cc2fd722c3e2d2e216a564b


PA2019 said:


> Thanks, I was talking with Ronnie about this last night. They are also starting a group on the MeWe app.


https://mewe.com/group/5cc2fd722c3e2d2e216a564b


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## Yvonne G

Kapidolo Farms said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=430218471062184
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> an experiment


Is your 'experiment' rose petals?


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## Kapidolo Farms

Cal-Hib-Roh.mov



Yvonne G said:


> Is your 'experiment' rose petals?


my experiment is if I could post an mp4 video here. Those are the roses petals that I have available now. All the spider tortoises were a bit grumpy coming out of their winter slumber. The perfume from the rose petals seems to have done the trick to perk their appetite. They are not grumpy anymore.


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## Kapidolo Farms

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=432145124225790


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## Kapidolo Farms

already sold.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=396922711038568


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## Kapidolo Farms

This is the replication . https://mewe.com/group/5cc438365ca0292e1c4d40e0 . the other one is okay too. 



Kapidolo Farms said:


> https://mewe.com/group/5cc2fd722c3e2d2e216a564b
> 
> https://mewe.com/group/5cc2fd722c3e2d2e216a564b


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## Toddrickfl1

Is it Rose hips and hibiscus?


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## samkerns1

I'm guessing rose hips and alfalfa pellets.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Wow, the unboxing video. 






Kapidolo Farms said:


> already sold.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=396922711038568


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## Kapidolo Farms

samkerns1 said:


> I'm guessing rose hips and alfalfa pellets.


nope


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## Kapidolo Farms

Toddrickfl1 said:


> Is it Rose hips and hibiscus?


nope


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## SPILL

ZooMed grassland and hibiscus?


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## Yvonne G

Kapidolo Farms said:


> Wow, the unboxing video.


Is this the "already sold" tortoise from several posts back?


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## Kapidolo Farms

Winner winner chicken dinner, whatever that means?

Yes it's ZooMed Grassland soaked with the 'cold brew tea' that results from soaking the dehydrated hibiscus blossoms. And yes, even the most stubborn tortoises I have, spring emerging spider tortoises, gulp this down.

The bonus question is what political figure have I quoted in this thread, and what is the quote, cut and past is okay.




SPILL said:


> ZooMed grassland and hibiscus?


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## Kapidolo Farms

Yvonne G said:


> Is this the "already sold" tortoise from several posts back?


Post # 446, Yes, it is. That turntable thing is very 'yes I like' it, 'no I don't'.


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## SPILL

Kapidolo Farms said:


> Winner winner chicken dinner, whatever that means?
> 
> Yes it's ZooMed Grassland soaked with the 'cold brew tea' that results from soaking the dehydrated hibiscus blossoms. And yes, even the most stubborn tortoises I have, spring emerging spider tortoises, gulp this down.
> 
> The bonus question is what political figure have I quoted in this thread, and what is the quote, cut and past is okay.



John Street, former Philadelphia mayor: "This will be brief, no matter how long it takes."


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## Kapidolo Farms

SPILL said:


> John Street, former Philadelphia mayor: "This will be brief, no matter how long it takes."


Cool, easy peasy

Please send me an email of what item you seek, any thing I've posted here on TFO or the webpage for Kapidolo Farms. [email protected] Please let me know you are SPILL here on TFO. Hmm, I guess I might get many such emails, better PM me here using the PM system here. LOL


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## Yvonne G

Kapidolo Farms said:


> Cool, easy peasy
> 
> Please send me an email of what item you seek, any thing I've posted here on TFO or the webpage for Kapidolo Farms. [email protected] Please let me know you are SPILL here on TFO. Hmm, I guess I might get many such emails, better PM me here using the PM system here. LOL


Dang! I had my finger poised and ready to email posing as SPILL. Oh well.


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## Kapidolo Farms

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1477838809025505




. Fresno 




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=299375314338757




. Pleasanton and




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2322313798035560








__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=303920110303532




. San Diego 




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1071640599686699




. Bakersfield 

The shows so far this year, I have several more booked and will post them a week or so ahead on the Kapidolo Farms Facebook and MeWe platforms.

Shows are fatiguing but fun. Saving the costs of shipping are high, the chance to see first before you buy is great, and actual live conversation.


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## Toddrickfl1

Kapidolo Farms said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1477838809025505
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Fresno
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=299375314338757
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Pleasanton and
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2322313798035560
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=303920110303532
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . San Diego
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1071640599686699
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Bakersfield
> 
> The shows so far this year, I have several more booked and will post them a week or so ahead on the Kapidolo Farms Facebook and MeWe platforms.
> 
> Shows are fatiguing but fun. Saving the costs of shipping are high, the chance to see first before you buy is great, and actual live conversation.


I wish you did some of the shows here in GA. You've got more tortoises at your booth than they usually have at the whole show here.


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## Kapidolo Farms

You know, I gotta say Russ, who runs this group, sorta gotta it all going on. I attended and spoke (about tortoise nutrition) at a conference called Hepeton 2019, this past weekend. Lots of lamenting how the hobby/interest is slowly being destroyed* from both the inside and outside by our ever changing world. 

Well, if you listened to all the check boxes for what 'ought to be done' by these older 'statesmen' of herpetoculture, you see Russ (and crew) and TTPG are already doing it. Been doing it for ten years, and have a structure that is not likely to poop out anytime soon.

I further got to thinking about turtle and tortoise clubs in north America. NYTTS, CTTC, STTC, SDTTC, etc. most have been at it for 30, 40, 50, some even 60 years, well past any single person doing 'all the work'.

Are chelonian keepers just better at the long haul? I think so.

* from inside, by poor players getting caught up in sensationalized news stories, release of non-natives, people counting on zoos, or others to take on their sulcata when it out grows them. etc.

* from outside, summed up as a$$ hats who try to legislate pet ownership in the name of many things, most if not all none sense.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Where I have been...
Bakersfield, Central Valley Reptile Expo, February 9/10 2019

San Diego, Reptilian Nation, March 30/31 2019

Fresno, Central Valley Reptile Expo, June 01/02 2019

Pleasanton, NorCal Reptile Expo, May 17/18 2019

See videos of table and set up here https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/live-naked-people.126107/page-23#post-1745269 click on the "learn more" to see the video.

Coming UP...
Pomona/Los Angeles, Reptile Supper show, August 10/11 2019

La Habra/Los Angeles, California Turtle and Tortoise Club show, August 25 2019 (no animal sales)

Fresno, Central valley Reptile Expo, date to be determined.

San Diego, Reptilian Nation, September 21/22 2019

Sacramento, Sacramento Reptile show, September 28/29 2019

2020
Anaheim/Los Angeles, Reptile Super Show, January 4/5 2020


See more, Pay less, what's not to like about a show? Mention that you saw this posting here on TFO and I'll take your single person entry fee off any animal you purchase. Remind me, I'll forget I said this. 

I have all the foods, ZooMed diets, calcium carbonate, cotton Batiks from Indonesia, and also @Markw84 's all in one 'plug-n-play' enclosures. It makes sense to think of them as the only enclosure you'll need, unless you get a giant species. Many times Mark will be partnering with me in/at the booth, as cool as Mark is to exchange with here on TFO, he's even cooler in person. And those enclosures, are spectacular.

I hope to see you at any of these shows.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Also, I'm committing to do the the Phoenix show, right after the TTPG conference
November 16 – 17, 2019


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## Kapidolo Farms

August 2019, deal of the month suggestions.... and GO


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## Yvonne G

How about a picture of a I.D. the tortoise contest here in this thread? The prize could be a sampling of all the dry goods you sell.


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## Kapidolo Farms

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=358594511499998





Facebook video of this past weekend at the Pomona Fairgrounds (Reptile Super Show).


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## Yvonne G

I noticed your little red wagon. I have a nice wagon you can have. Fairly new. I bought it to take Medea in at night. Remind me next time you visit and I'll show you.


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## Kapidolo Farms

New Blog post up . https://kapidolofarms.com/2019/09/09/grassland-is-a-habitat-description-not-a-diet-definition/

September show list is up with deal of the month in TFO's market place.


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## Kapidolo Farms

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=432958453992367




. The Del Mar show from 21&22 September 2019. 

Next week I will be at the Sacramento show, that will now be at the Expo Center, not that cramped situation downtown. I'll add small 'grow your own organic grass kits' to the store so you can get the babies eating soft fresh organic grass right away. Acceptance at Kapidolo Farms has been 100%, so they know it's stuff to eat.

Let me know if you have a specific animal interest. [email protected]


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## Yvonne G

Nice display. I first watched this video on FB on my Kindle. The small screen really doesn't do it justice. Is that manouria tortoise from the same clutch as my aberrant scutes babies? He's huge! Did you sell him?


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## jsheffield

That Manouria is exquisite!

Jamie


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## Kapidolo Farms

That is the smallest of the three holdback form 2016. They are all so rowdy, I had to use a fence board in the vision cage so they don't break the glass doors. Together they eat a full dishpan worth of salad daily, plus an extra head of some greens. It did not sell, I'm sure I'll cry when it does. They all look female too.



Yvonne G said:


> Nice display. I first watched this video on FB on my Kindle. The small screen really doesn't do it justice. Is that manouria tortoise from the same clutch as my aberrant scutes babies? He's huge! Did you sell him?


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## Kapidolo Farms

Not my first word choice, but I'll take it in good order. I run with robust. Exquisite is a whole other realm of good description.


jsheffield said:


> That Manouria is exquisite!
> 
> Jamie


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## Yvonne G

Kapidolo Farms said:


> That is the smallest of the three holdback form 2016. They are all so rowdy, I had to use a fence board in the vision cage so they don't break the glass doors. Together they eat a full dishpan worth of salad daily, plus an extra head of some greens. It did not sell, I'm sure I'll cry when it does. They all look female too.


Well, the one I hatched here is probably male. All my babies so far have turned out male. He's quite a bit bigger than his aberrant scute 'sisters.' So we can save my 4 year old (or is he five now) to be a second male for our group. I'll check, but I think is mama is Medea.


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## Kapidolo Farms

The Sacramento Reptile Expo...





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=393998458186713


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## Kapidolo Farms

The Phoenix reptile show, a still image from a balcony. My Dad joined @Markw84 and me at this show. Dad was selling 'Pegs and Jokers" a game popular with his many years of friends from full time motor-homing. He's in the blue shirt pointing to me on the balcony, telling that woman, "he knows about these food, he'll be right back down".

This show is held at the Meza Convention center immediately following the TTPG conference. Five days of chelonian glory for me.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Milky Oats is oat hay harvested before seed heads appear, it is a soft palatable hay high in fiber with a positive C: P ratio. It is the only USDA certified organic grass/hay that I have found consistently available. Acceptance is high among tortoises at least a pound in weight. This covers adult pancake tortoises, larger Egyptians, up to an including 70 pound Manouria, held at Kapidolo Farms. It is a great scaffold of complex carbohydrates and lignin, the structure that facilitate a healthy gut biome of microbes that aid in digestion. 

What I find most beneficial is that it is soft and pliable, has no little sticks, and the tortoises do not bite a eject it from their mouths when mixed in with fresh greens.

Here are two references for your seeing specific nutrients and description of this item.

Nutrients: https://www.feedipedia.org/node/12386 this includes all parts of the 'hay'. I have not found a reliable nutrient breakdown for just the flower tops before seed set.

General description: *Milky oats* are the *oat* tops harvested when they are in their *milky* stage, during which the *oat* tops release a white, *milky* sap when squeezed. This stage, which lasts approximately one week, occurs after the *oat* begins flowering and before the seed hardens and becomes the *oat* grain we eat as oatmeal.


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## Kapidolo Farms

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10219727712959284





An unanticipated path for me. What a super personable little dude.

I'll see what I can do to bring the video here.


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## Kapidolo Farms

. now also on YouTube.



Kapidolo Farms said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10219727712959284
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An unanticipated path for me. What a super personable little dude.
> 
> I'll see what I can do to bring the video here.


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## iAmCentrochelys sulcata

Yvonne G said:


> Sounds good, Will. In that same vein, I shop Amazon Smile and they donate a percentage of my purchase to a charity of my choice, and so far, naturally, my choice has been turtle related.
> 
> We now have almost 50 leopard eggs cookin'. This means more 3% donations in our future!!
> 
> 
> (you posted this 4 minutes ago, and so far I'm the only 'viewer' who bit on the live naked people thing)


wow i think i’m one of the youngest here (15 years of age)


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## Kapidolo Farms

The last evening in Hawaii we went for a dinner boat excursion. The boat was large enough to hold about 40 people, they maxed it out at 12, covid issues and all. 



 it may seem so simple a thing to see on video, but the odds of two humpback whales about 50 feet off the stern is really really low. On an earlier snorkel trip we saw several but from hundreds of yards away, so far, no point in taking cell phone images.

During that few days earlier snorkel trip we watched a green sea turtle eat off the bottom algae after being spotted at the surface. Frankly it was like watching a sulcata on a lawn, just gomp gomp gomp along a meandering path of gomping. There were only four of us on boat fitted for 20, but the 'other' wife got seas sick, while swimming/snorkeling, so that was all cut short.

A highlight for me was to see an angulate tortoise that my boss from the Fresno Chaffee Zoo had cared for several decades earlier. https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/who-has-the-oldest-tortoise-on-the-forum.103180/post-1900162 . This exact female was part of the AI trial that has been used later for the Red River softshell turtles. That use was originated here in Hawaii by Sean. This female had to have her female parts removed as a result of a later yolk infection. 

If you 'Facebook' there are more images at William Espenshade of Hawaii.


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## Kapidolo Farms

For some reason most efforts never happen as fast as you think they ought to. I do recall the earthquake damaged freeways in LA were fixed ahead of schedule though (Northridge 1994?). But that seems the exception, the contractors would see a fine if they failed and a bonus if they beat the 'completed by' date. The new webpage intended to be online in mid Dec was just completed mid Jan. Kapidolo Farms' customer base has not reached that customer proportion, yet, the number of angry Angelenos who couldn't drive versus the number of tortoise keepers seeking wholesome foods. 

I do see others coming into the market. It's difficult to see if it's a copy of ZooMed 'toppers' or the line of products I have, or separate inspiration. I think ZooMed had been inspired by the topper product that premiered elsewhere. Most of the competitors are making blends/mixes, a few have single items. NO ONE else has the breath of products or all organic sourced. 

Fully unique: Kapidolo Farms Gel Kit is a way to make your own food for use at a later time, no others are bringing that to you. The powder type gel foods are not on equal footing, they have no comparative fiber content/profile.

So, why am I stuck on organic sourced? Tortoises are long lived and bioaccumulate toxins. Populations of aquatic turtles can be used as habitat indicators of environmental pollutants. Organic is measurably more healthy. I have never found the source material again, first found 1996 when I read - that even toxins on the PPB can destroy the reproduction of parthenogenetic geckos. 

Another important concept behind organic foods is that the land management practices required mean that less poisons are applied, so those aquatic turtles that are bio-accumulators have less poison accumulating in their bodies. Birds, fish, frogs, etc. also benefit. 

In 2015 when I first gave out a few hundred one ounce bags of what has come to be known as backyard harvest Cactus Chips I had no idea in five years I would be here today. Offering over 25 organic sourced foods, now including opuntia cactus flour. 

The new webpage is not what I had a vision for specifically, it has been designed for search optimization, and that is being realized, month over month sales have been increasing steadily. I'm nearing the need for employees and warehouse space. I've hired out some services like the webpage and accounting, so I can focus more on product development and customer fulfillment That is where I am leading with this text.

All the stuff offered has been what is called a PUSH, I supplied it and you-all have bought it, and I am genuinely grateful for that. Five years ago no one was demanding Cactus Chips. Now I fall behind their production almost weekly, even with two dryers running almost daily. The other side of product development is PULL. PULL is from customers saying what is right or good or saying what is wrong or bad. I'd like you all to feel you have permission, even encouragement to tell me more about what is bad or wrong. The many positive reviews have compelled many long days of very busy hands, thank you all for that support. I'd like to do better.

Part of what makes me look forward to waking up each day is feeling I am creating better lives for tortoises with quality foods. It is a small part of the whole of your husbandry efforts, I am grateful that you let me help. I don't think I will step away from organic sourced or backyard harvest as principles of source foods. The ZM foods (ZooMed) are not organic, they are nonGMO and that is a reasonable compromise in my opinion, it's also the best rated prepared 'tortoise' food available, at least in the US.

I have some ideas for improvements. But I'd like to hear what may be your consideration - why don't they do this?, I'd like to see (fill in the blank). Please shoot me an email with whatever might be on your mind.


----------



## Ink

I have a question, I am currently soaking cactus and hibiscus for my tortoises tomorrow. (Leopard, Eastern and Western Hermanns) can I give all of them the rose hips? Thank you


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Rose hips are a good part of variety. They have a very high content of the beta-carotene. See HERE.

All species of tortoise can benefit from rose hips in their diet. The frequency and amount should be less than 2-3% per meal or week. The idea is too make each food prep different. A little goes a long way for that purpose. Leafy weedy greens should be the bulk of the diet for the species you mention. Forest dwelling species can have more rose hips in their daily food, but still skip a few days before offering it again, no matter the species.



Ink said:


> I have a question, I am currently soaking cactus and hibiscus for my tortoises tomorrow. (Leopard, Eastern and Western Hermanns) can I give all of them the rose hips? Thank you


----------



## Ink

Thank you I give it as a treat. And tomorrow they will have a feast from your farm.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=225913722287302





Do a little dance, make a little love, get down tonight.


----------



## Sarah2020

Kapidolo Farms said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=225913722287302
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do a little dance, make a little love, get down tonight.


Brilliant, what a character.


----------

