# first post created a stir, keeping multiple species



## NEtorts (Jan 16, 2010)

My first post I mentioned that I keep multiple species together....I know it is frowned upon, but, I have had no ill effects yet. 
the "mistake" I made was before I knew much about tortoises I got one. in 2002 I got a baby sulcata. did not know much about them but I knew they got huge and were destructive and told myself i'd do what it took to keep the tort as part of my family, so over the years I learned what I could...kept him growing slow and healthy. as he did well, in 2006 i came home from a reptile show with a 4" redfoot and a 4" greek! didnt know much about either. so I hit the internet and learned about them. now the challenge is to keep the redfoot in a more humid enviornment and the greek and sulcata a bit drier. then I thought it would be a good idea to try a baby leo. so I found one and it arived! then last year a lady in my town could not take care of her female greek so....you guessed it,, its at my house now. ...and the last chapter of the story is last week i found a pancake for a good price from a reputable breeder and it has arived...
now, my climate is cold, so i have put the effort into it. I have 1500 square feet of tort accomodations. (bigger than my house) this includes a 2 zone fenced in yard (fenced so that the big boy sulcata cannot get into all of the outside pen but the smaller torts can) 
A green house for the spring and fall days, and a shed (super insulated) for the winter and nights.
they have free range for about 6 months, tunnels allow them tomove to the area they want to be in. at night in the summer i will find them in the shed staying warm and grazing in the yard during the day, on rainy or cool days the will graze breifly then head into the greenhouse to stay warm... they all move about at will
I think the key is space. they have there own little hiding spots, they are not harrased or stressed.
I have witnessed the sulcata trying to mount the redfoot and the red will walk away and go straight to a place where he cannot follow. its like the red knows he can not follow her to these areas of the pen. 
i make holes and burrows of apropriate size so the sulcata cannot follow.
inthe winter it is a bit tighter quarters but i still see no ill effects.
the hard part is that they become part of the family. i am not a breeder. (yet) and if i decided to breed i should focus on specific species. but how would i choose? I care for them so much and enjoy watching them grow... how do you all choose which torts to raise?
and yep...go ahead, let me have it, i can take the critisizing. i will listen and i will take all coments into consideration, as long as you are nice about it!


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## Jacqui (Jan 16, 2010)

NEtorts said:


> the hard part is that they become part of the family. i am not a breeder. (yet) and if i decided to breed i should focus on specific species. but how would i choose? I care for them so much and enjoy watching them grow... how do you all choose which torts to raise?
> and yep...go ahead, let me have it, i can take the critisizing. i will listen and i will take all coments into consideration, as long as you are nice about it!



There shouldn't be any need for us to criticize the fact your mixing a lot of species. You yourself are doubting your own wisdom for doing that.  The point is this thread is not about the mixing, it's about how to choose which type to raise. I hope everybody is mature enough to stay on that subject and that one alone.


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## NEtorts (Jan 16, 2010)

You yourself are doubting your own wisdom for doing that.  The point is this thread is not about the mixing, it's about how to choose which type to raise. I hope everybody is mature enough to stay on that subject and that one alone.
[/quote]

I see your point, if i had to do it all over again, and had the knowledge before hand, i probably would do it differently. But since I do not wish to get rid of my pets i will make them the best home I can for as long as I can. Isn't that what you all do? "make the best home you can for as long as you can"
I have seen numerous breeders who keep species together but in plastic totes. this seems cruel. 
This is so far, a great forum. forums are for debate, information,and sharing. seems like thats just what im getting! 
nice to be part of it!


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## Yvonne G (Jan 16, 2010)

Sorry, you get no debate from me. I said my piece in your introduction.


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## NEtorts (Jan 16, 2010)

emysemys said:


> Sorry, you get no debate from me. I said my piece in your introduction.



And with a humble smile I thank you and point taken Yvonne. 
Ok so...back on topic does anyone have anything to say about keeping species together, 
how about if you took the redfoot out of the picture? more arid species together? how about just African species? does anyone do this? how do the big breeders do it? they must just have acres of space......


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## stells (Jan 17, 2010)

There are a few that will advocate what you are doing... i am not one of those...

I can see you heading for disaster...you say the Sulcata is already mounting.... i'm seeing stressed/sick tortoises in your future..


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## -EJ (Jan 17, 2010)

If the animals are healthy an growing well... I don't see that you have a problem. They're your pets. If they're getting along... don't mess with it.

There are some that don't recommend the practice but not too many of them have come up with a reasonable answer as to why not.

As far a focusing on one or two tortoises... can't help you there I've focused on as many as 15 species at one time.

(...a red sulcata... I wonder)


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## stells (Jan 17, 2010)

I think different situations have different reasonable answers... in this case my main concern would be that a baby Sulcata in 2002 would now be around 7-8 years old and would have some size to it.... then you have something like a Pancake mixed in with this fairly substantial tortoise to tread all over and stress... i have had situations here where smaller tortoises... of the same species... mixed in with a larger but not yet adult tortoise have gotten stressed out by the bigger tortoise....

The Redfoot is already running and having to hide away from the Sulcata...


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## GBtortoises (Jan 17, 2010)

NEtorts--I also live in the Northeast, am always curious about how other people keep tropical and arid species of tortoises here and always on the look out for new ideas. I would love to see some pics of your set up.


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## t_mclellan (Jan 17, 2010)

Hello NEtorts;
People here aren't so bad! Heck they put up with ME!!

Over the years I have kept different species together for 1 reason or another. Also over the years I have figured out a few things that I feel make sense (to me at least). I'll do this in a "Pro's vs. Con's" kinda format thingy.

Pro's - You can keep more animals in fewer pens. This is the only "Pro" I can think of.

Con's - Possibility of transferring disease or parasites that a species would not encounter in the wild.
Animals from drastically different ecosystems making do with substandard & sometimes detrimental captive habitat. The possibility of unintentional hybrids (I'm not sure how I even feel about intentional hybrids, but that's another thread) This list could go on for a LONG time, But I think I just covered the BIG issues.

My thoughts are simple. I'll start with, I keep all my animals separated by,
1) Species.
2) Size.
3) Captive born.
4) Wild caught.

But that's me!

I have friends that keep the following combinations of TORTOISES with no problems.
1) Sulcata & Leopard (pardalis, pardalis)
2) Redfoot & Yellowfoot

I feel that if all the animals are captive born & disease / parasite free there should be very few problems apart from size, personality & habitat.


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## Jacqui (Jan 17, 2010)

Thank you guys for attempting to stay on subject matter, which in this thread is debating how to choose what one or maybe one environmental type species to raise. Sorta wondering if this qualifies as a debate even, it's more opinion.

Please continue to stay on the subject....comments about mixing are not being asked for.


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## GBtortoises (Jan 17, 2010)

While I do keep different species seperate from each other. If I were keeping them together I would definitely strive to at least keep tortoises from similar environments together and those that are from completely different environments apart. Much like t_mclellan stated. One of the issues that I have with keeping similar species together is that in many cases they can hybridize. some of the commonly known hybrids are: Sulcata/Leopards; Redfoots/Yellowfoots & Marginateds/Ibera and there are undoubtably others. I absolutely do not believe that the original species form should be diluted in captivity. 

While many species may have similar requirements, few are exactly the same, each has certain micro-climate needs. While some people may get away with providing generalized care requirements for multiple species I believe there is a difference between surviving and thriving.


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## t_mclellan (Jan 17, 2010)

True to my style I read the entire post and still missed the point!
"How do you all choose which torts to raise?"
Now I think I'm on track!
A 2 fold question.
Raising tortoises for breeding or as pets.
Several things to consider are, In my opinion.
1) What tortoises am I "PASSIONATE" about? (Breeding & pets)
2) How much space do they need? (Breeding & pets)
vs.
How much space am I able & willing to commit to the project? (Breeding & pets)
3) What & how much do they eat & am I able to supply it? (Breeding & pets)
4) Indoors or outdoors? Or both depending on climate. )Breeding & pets)
6) Am I willing to do / build or buy anything & everything I must to keep them healthy & safe? (Breeding & pets)
7) Do I want to breed for myself & the animals or money? 

These are just a few of the considerations I feel should be addressed BEFORE making this decision.
I raise the animals I do because I am passionate about them & where & how they fit in the world.
I have kept Redfoots since the 70's & still have some of the first I acquired. For this I must thank a few friends that have kept my animals safe & happy while I, Wandered the world making money from time to time. 
I have a few Sulcatas that I care for since there owners could not. Have I bred Sulcata? Yes. Do I? No. Would I again? I don't know.
I have some young Rhinoceros Iguanas Cyclura, cornuta & some young Cyclura, nubila 
I breed Redfoots. 
Why?
I breed Redfoots to reduce the demand for "Wild" Redfoots!
& cuz I like to!


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## NEtorts (Jan 17, 2010)

Very interesting, and even though some of these comments seem like common sense i had not even thought of a few of them!!! I am surprised by my own lack of thought on this subject. t_mclellan has a great outline that i have read several times for determining the question. perhaps I will need to look into seperating my 24.4lb sulcata from the others because there is a difference between surviving and thriving! excellent point. at this point it would be almost impossible to get rid of any of them, they are pets not just breeding stock. and that is one of the criteria some of you must use when deciding what torts to keep....


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## dmmj (Jan 17, 2010)

I choose which ever species interests me, or I am passionate about.


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## GBtortoises (Jan 17, 2010)

Many years ago I kept temperate, arid and tropical climate tortoises. Many, many different species, some very rare today (and even then). But after a while I realized that because of my geographical location (New York state) and the way that I preferred to keep tortoises (outdoors as much as possible) that the temperate climate tortoises were best suited for me. Fortunately, they were also the group that I was most attracted to. So I keep and breed Hermann's, Marginateds, Ibera and Russians. I still have Pancake tortoises. They have to stay indoors year round here. Although I've got a few plans in mind to get them outdoors much of the summer with some additional night time heat. I have a few Redfoots, they can go out from about mid-June to early September. But I have to bring them in on cold nights here. Many people keep their tortoises indoors year round. That's just not for me. I like to see them outside acting at least somewhat naturally. Other people do bring them in and out daily, that's not for me either, it would take me hours each day! Some people, usually someone that only has a few animals can afford to spend more on heating equipment and insulated outdoor buildings for their animals during cold weather. I can't not with what my electric bill already is each month!

I usually tell people: When you're deciding what species you want to keep look at the entire situation an be honest with yourself: Can you provide the type of climate they require, indoors and or outdoors too? Can you keep them outdoors where you live based on climate and security needs, can you afford to provide them with additional living quarters outside your home if they need it (buildings, lights, heat source). Can you devote enough space indoors for them when they get bigger? Do they fit into your daily life schedule (are you home at "normal" hours to care for and enjoy them)? 

Unfortunately many first time or newer keepers buy tortoises on a whim or based solely on the fact that they like a certain species looks or shape and not giving too much thought to what it's lifelong requirements are going to be.


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## egyptiandan (Jan 17, 2010)

Lets keep this on topic folks  Please take all off topic comments to the PM facility. 

Danny


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## -ryan- (Jan 17, 2010)

I am a little bit confused about two things: #1 I am confused about what the debate is, because I don't know what comments were off topic (it seems like we're talking both about cohabitation and about how to decide what species of tortoise to keep?)
#2 I am just wondering, what is the reasoning for not separating the tortoises? Do you have any pics of their yard/shed? I think a lot of us would really love to see how you keep them, because we have all basically been jumping to conclusions based on what we have read. A picture is worth a thousand words. I am just a bit confused though, because it seems like if you already have areas sectioned off that the smaller tortoises can get to but the sulcata can't, it would be easy enough just to separate them off completely. You could just put up some walls and make a series of smaller pens for everything except the sulcata. You are completely free to make your own decisions though. Really the main thing I am concerned about with the interspecies thing is the damage that a large sulcata could do to your smaller torts. I have heard of large sulcatas ramming similar sized leopard tortoises and killing them.

As far as what species to choose, it is so difficult for me (as well as, I am sure, others on this forum) to keep from going out and buying a hatchling sulcata, leopard, yellow foot, more redfoots, etc. etc. but I try to exercise self control for several reasons. I work mainly with russians, so all I have is russians and one red foot. I love the red foot too, but I don't wish to get more and start a breeding colony because there are others out there doing that already who are very successful, so for now it seems most beneficial for me to stick with the russians which fewer people are breeding and which I am just naturally a little more interested in. I have also been tempted to build up my breeding stock a lot more than it is now (1.2, with a third female close to large enough to join the group and a hatchling that I am raising for kicks), but I haven't done that yet for several reasons. The first is financial, because I am of limited means and don't want to raise the food bill or electric bill. The second has to do with the tortoises' needs. I think every time you are about to pull the trigger and buy another tortoise you should ask yourself 'how will this affect the care I give to my other tortoises'. The third is that I have started to get hatchlings and am trying to figure out what to do with them, and that is enough of a task. More hatchlings would mean that I would have to find more buyers.

That's just a few things to think about, but that is my reasoning and you need to develop your own


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## elegans (Jan 18, 2010)

This is a disaster in the making, I will say no more other than "Good Luck". I really do mean that, I have rarely seen anyone keep multiple species together successfully. Always in that situation they were all still old world or new world together, newer a mix of the two. Best wishes Douglas

PS: I would really consider separating the old / new world animals and treating them with Panacure and Flagyl at least 3 times on a 10 day cycle to try to prevent some bad outcome. Good luck.


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## -EJ (Jan 18, 2010)

As spoken by an inexperienced keeper...

15 years personal experience??????... would that count?... Way more than that on reported accounts... is that valid?

Before we got into the matchbox frame of mind how many old timers just threw their tortoise into the yard regardless of the species and still have them?







elegans said:


> This is a disaster in the making, I will say no more other than "Good Luck". I really do mean that, I have rarely seen anyone keep multiple species together successfully. Always in that situation they were all still old world or new world together, newer a mix of the two. Best wishes Douglas
> 
> PS: I would really consider separating the old / new world animals and treating them with Panacure and Flagyl at least 3 times on a 10 day cycle to try to prevent some bad outcome. Good luck.


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## chadk (Jan 18, 2010)

Panacure and Flagyl just for good measure? Not sure that is good advice. Maybe a vet check first to see if there is anything actually to treat first.


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## -EJ (Jan 18, 2010)

It blows me away about this advice... 

Where do you think the vets got their beginning on the treatment of herps? Surely not vet school.

Let's see... diagnostics... $1000... outcome... inclusive. 

Panacure and Flagyl... safe and very broad spectrum...

I really can't put into words the direction of this point... but... been there... done that.





chadk said:


> Panacure and Flagyl just for good measure? Not sure that is good advice. Maybe a vet check first to see if there is anything actually to treat first.


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## elegans (Jan 18, 2010)

Yeah it is actually good advise. There is no down side if done properly. I routinely "deworm" my outside tortoises every year. Most good keepers that I know do the same. So the fact is that the tortoises in question have "possibly" been exposed to some pathogen. Agreed? It is easier and cheaper to just assume that they have it than check to see. As it is also entirely possible for your vet tech to check for something and miss it anyway. New World and Old World Tortoises should never be mixed in any circumstances! Plenty of people just threw torts together; and some survived, old timers as you call the own great shell collections! I lost more than a few by not being more prudent in my early days. I wish that someone had more clearly directed me. Good luck for real!


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## -EJ (Jan 18, 2010)

If you really understand the biology of the tortoises you keep this discussion is a nonissue.

I can write a book on the mechanics of species interaction aka mixing species.



elegans said:


> Yeah it is actually good advise. There is no down side if done properly. I routinely "deworm" my outside tortoises every year. Most good keepers that I know do the same. So the fact is that the tortoises in question have "possibly" been exposed to some pathogen. Agreed? It is easier and cheaper to just assume that they have it than check to see. As it is also entirely possible for your vet tech to check for something and miss it anyway. New World and Old World Tortoises should never be mixed in any circumstances! Plenty of people just threw torts together; and some survived, old timers as you call the own great shell collections! I lost more than a few by not being more prudent in my early days. I wish that someone had more clearly directed me. Good luck for real!


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## chadk (Jan 19, 2010)

Elegans - so you consider "pathogens" the same as 'worms' or 'parasites'? My concern is that by killing off the good \ natural flora in the torts system, you may actually reduce it's natural ability to fight off some harmful pathogens and risk an opportunistic infection. But again, I'm not sure on this. Just thining outloud and hoping others with more experience can chime in.

EJ - $1000 seems high to me for a fecal check. And I'm lucky that in our area here, we have a few well respected tort vets. But I agree that many vets give out advice on par with the typical big chain pet shop employee...


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