# solarmeter best use



## Salspi (Dec 11, 2020)

Im trying to dial in my UVB levels under Arcadia 12% t5 HO. My substrate is oyster shell and is only 1 inch deep(Testudo Kleinmanni). Since the solarmeter 6.5r is 4 inches tall, I cant sink it down far enough into the substrate to give me a reading at the substrate level. I tried to take a measurement outside of the enclosed vivarium by pulling out the fixture and measuring the same distance. However, the inside of the enclosure is all white. Especially compared to my wood floors. Does this effect the UVI recorded level. How do you most accurately measure UVI with this meter if you cant sink it 4 inches down into the substrate?


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## Tom (Dec 12, 2020)

Salspi said:


> Im trying to dial in my UVB levels under Arcadia 12% t5 HO. My substrate is oyster shell and is only 1 inch deep(Testudo Kleinmanni). Since the solarmeter 6.5r is 4 inches tall, I cant sink it down far enough into the substrate to give me a reading at the substrate level. I tried to take a measurement outside of the enclosed vivarium by pulling out the fixture and measuring the same distance. However, the inside of the enclosure is all white. Especially compared to my wood floors. Does this effect the UVI recorded level. How do you most accurately measure UVI with this meter if you cant sink it 4 inches down into the substrate?


Your levels are not that critical. Anything from 1-6 UVI will work. If you move the substrate and put the bottom of the meter on the bottom of the enclosure, and then measure, you'll only be a couple inches different than the top of the tortoise. That is close enough.

I predict with oyster shell as a substrate and an HO tube in a dry enclosure, your tortoise will grow slowly and pyramid. I haven't done it myself yet, but all indications tell me that Egyptians are no different than other Testudo when it comes to raising them in overly dry desiccating conditions. In the wild, these desert tortoises would seek out humid microclimates as babies to hide from predators and also to maintain hydration.


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## TeamZissou (Dec 12, 2020)

Tom said:


> I predict with oyster shell as a substrate and an HO tube in a dry enclosure, your tortoise will grow slowly and pyramid. I haven't done it myself yet, but all indications tell me that Egyptians are no different than other Testudo when it comes to raising them in overly dry desiccating conditions. In the wild, these desert tortoises would seek out humid microclimates as babies to hide from predators and also to maintain hydration.



I had the same idea after reading Ricarda Schramm's 2019 book on keeping Egyptians. She's in Germany, and it seems like all the CB Europeans Egyptians that I see are a lot smoother than what you see in the US on forums, Fauna, and other places. Her tortoises are smoother despite the use of MVBs, regular (UVA) fluorescent tubes, and UVB set to the "ideal" UVI of 3-4. She also uses a closed chamber whereas most of the setups for Egyptians in the US are open topped tables.

The other main difference is substrate. Rather than using oyster shell, they use a mix of building sand and loam, which has a small amount of clay in it and supposedly retains moisture a bit better than straight sand. It also provides more digging opportunities compared to the oyster shell, so they get more wet/humidity directly on the shell. 

She also runs a fogger to raise humidity into the 75% range. I've read that you're not pro-fogger and have said that it's not the same as regular humidity, but it seems to work for her. On that note, how is it fundamentally different compared to raising the humidity with water dishes etc? The only thing I can think of is that the water particles from a fogger are a bit larger, so we can see them. 

Anyway, my primary strategy when I get some Egyptians in the spring is to run a closed chamber with LED lights for ambient light, 1 hour of UVB at a lower UVI, and obviously regular flood basking bulbs; really it's fairly standard stuff, but not for Egyptians in the US. I think there is something to the sand + loam + fogger option as well. It seems like it has worked for the European Egyptian keepers.


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## Tom (Dec 12, 2020)

TeamZissou said:


> Anyway, my primary strategy when I get some Egyptians in the spring is to run a closed chamber with LED lights for ambient light, 1 hour of UVB at a lower UVI, and obviously regular flood basking bulbs; really it's fairly standard stuff, but not for Egyptians in the US. I think there is something to the sand + loam + fogger option as well. It seems like it has worked for the European Egyptian keepers.


With the exception of the substrate, this was essentially the experiment I was planning on running for 2020. Covid hit and I didn't work for 6 months and that changed my plans.

I would never use sand or soil (loam), and I won't be running a humidifier, but more moderate humidity in a closed chamber, with humid hides and humid microclimates available, was my plan. One of the breeders I was going to buy from uses a fogger in the mornings to simulate the coastal fog that blows in to those wild areas in the mornings and then burns off. He was keeping them on a more damp substrate and his animals are healthy and some of the smoothest I've seen.


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## TeamZissou (Dec 12, 2020)

Tom said:


> With the exception of the substrate, this was essentially the experiment I was planning on running for 2020. Covid hit and I didn't work for 6 months and that changed my plans.
> 
> I would never use sand or soil (loam), and I won't be running a humidifier, but more moderate humidity in a closed chamber, with humid hides and humid microclimates available, was my plan. One of the breeders I was going to buy from uses a fogger in the mornings to simulate the coastal fog that blows in to those wild areas in the mornings and then burns off. He was keeping them on a more damp substrate and his animals are healthy and some of the smoothest I've seen.



Excellent. It will be good to see how everything works out. There's definitely a perception that Egyptians can't be kept on very damp substrate, but your friend's method seems indicate that it does work. Have you seen a lot of negatives associated with a humidifier, such as more frequent URI or something with other species?

I guess Egyptians also grow faster and develop bone more quickly compared to other Testudo species, so the humid climate might be more critical right from the start. 

That is a bummer about not working for six months. I can definitely see getting a load of Egyptians as a non-essential cost. Maybe if enough people start breeding Egyptians, the price will come down. It doesn't look like the price has decreased at all, especially in the last 5 years based on old listings on faunaclassifieds.


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## Salspi (Dec 12, 2020)

Beware of using a fogger in an enclosed vivarium with baby egyptians. This is my experience only talking. I dont know about anyone else. My babies had bubbles coming out their noses after two weeks. I kept terra cotta pots turned upside down with the terra cotta saucer on top filled with water as humid hide, ran a fogger set to 60% humidity and did daily soaks for 10 min. That caused the bubbles. I took off the fogger and stopped the humid hides and kept the daily soaks going while skipping a day here and there. Everything went back to normal. In my experience, the breathing in of water vapor in the air that comes from a fogger builds up in their lungs. Maybe this doesnt happen on a tort table. Just letting you know what happened to me. Maybe there was something else i was doing wrong but i dont think so. My only thought was that at night the enclosure temp would dip to 73-75 degrees. I dont have as much experience as you guys. But, i want to share my story. I am tempted now that they are 30 months old to try it again and see if the results would be different. So, ive been running no humidity with daily-ish soaks since the nose bubbles started.


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## Salspi (Dec 12, 2020)




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## Salspi (Dec 12, 2020)

Its not as smooth as I wanted but, nose bubbles aren’t an option I’m willing to live with.


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## Salspi (Dec 12, 2020)

@Tom what substrate do you think would work better? I know you are a fan of fine orchid bark in other species.


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## Tom (Dec 12, 2020)

Salspi said:


> Beware of using a fogger in an enclosed vivarium with baby egyptians. This is my experience only talking. I dont know about anyone else. My babies had bubbles coming out their noses after two weeks. I kept terra cotta pots turned upside down with the terra cotta saucer on top filled with water as humid hide, ran a fogger set to 60% humidity and did daily soaks for 10 min. That caused the bubbles. I took off the fogger and stopped the humid hides and kept the daily soaks going while skipping a day here and there. Everything went back to normal. In my experience, the breathing in of water vapor in the air that comes from a fogger builds up in their lungs. Maybe this doesnt happen on a tort table. Just letting you know what happened to me. Maybe there was something else i was doing wrong but i dont think so. My only thought was that at night the enclosure temp would dip to 73-75 degrees. I dont have as much experience as you guys. But, i want to share my story. I am tempted now that they are 30 months old to try it again and see if the results would be different. So, ive been running no humidity with daily-ish soaks since the nose bubbles started.


This is EXCELLENT info and insight. Thank you for sharing your experience.


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## Tom (Dec 12, 2020)

Salspi said:


> @Tom what substrate do you think would work better? I know you are a fan of fine orchid bark in other species.


I like coco coir for baby Testudo, and fine grade o bark for adults.

I believe my friend has his in open topped enclosures, and that may be why he has not had respiratory issues using the fogger. Myself, I prefer to just not use foggers.


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## TeamZissou (Dec 12, 2020)

I wonder if this is purely a UV issue like what @Sterant is seeing with his Chersina.


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## Salspi (Dec 12, 2020)

Tom said:


> I like coco coir for baby Testudo, and fine grade o bark for adults.
> 
> I believe my friend has his in open topped enclosures, and that may be why he has not had respiratory issues using the fogger. Myself, I prefer to just not use foggers.



I think that foggers are dangerous if used in an enclosed chamber for kleinmanni. Could it be that the oyster shell was absorbing the water and making the fogger work extra? And in turn, creating alot of water droplets from the fogger which kleinmanni hate? What substrate is he using on the tort table, Tom?


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## turtlesteve (Dec 12, 2020)

@TeamZissou I have never worked with Egyptians but this sounds close to how I would try to keep them and I want to see how it turns out. Like Tom, I am not really keen on the oyster shell substrate. The breeders promoting this have clearly perfected husbandry for the breeding adults, but not necessarily hatchlings, which commonly end up pyramiding.

With regards to the MVB’s, I have been testing MVB versus T8 this year and saw no difference, even with a 70W MVB at 8” distance from hatchlings. This was South African leopards. But, I am seeing differences between species in that 90-100% humidity works for leopards and redfoots, mostly works (not perfect) for platynota, but no bueno for Chacos (they still pyramid). I have some hunches as to why but need more hatchlings to test it all.


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## Salspi (Dec 12, 2020)

@Tom - is this the fine size? there are 4 diff sizes here. Is there a cheaper way to get he quality fine stuff that you reccommend? Seems pricey. 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TLYHGZH/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20


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## Tom (Dec 12, 2020)

Salspi said:


> @Tom - is this the fine size? there are 4 diff sizes here. Is there a cheaper way to get he quality fine stuff that you reccommend? Seems pricey.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TLYHGZH/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20


That is made from a different species of tree than what we get here. I don't know if New Zealand pine, Pinus radiata, is safe or not.

Quarter inch is the correct size.


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## Tom (Dec 12, 2020)

Salspi said:


> What substrate is he using on the tort table, Tom?



I don't think they are on tables. The pics I saw were more in ground looking, but I haven't seen them in person. He's using a coco peat and sand mixture.


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## Salspi (Dec 12, 2020)

Thanks for all the help tom. So im trying to find 1/4inch fir bark correct? Is repti bark good? It looks like its 1/2 inch size. Def too big.


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## Tom (Dec 12, 2020)

Salspi said:


> Thanks for all the help tom. So im trying to find 1/4inch fir bark correct? Is repti bark good? It looks like its 1/2 inch size. Def too big.


ReptiBark sold at the pet store is perfect. Its clean and its the right size, but its relatively expensive to buy that way.


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## Salspi (Dec 12, 2020)

Tom said:


> ReptiBark sold at the pet store is perfect. Its clean and its the right size, but its relatively expensive to buy that way.


all the reptibark pics look way bigger than 1/4 inch tho. it must be deceiving in the pics i guess.

This is the best i could find shipped. youre right very expensive : https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MRB6F9Q/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

But this product is sterilized and heated so it might be worth it


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## Tom (Dec 12, 2020)

Salspi said:


> all the reptibark pics look way bigger than 1/4 inch tho. it must be deceiving in the pics i guess.
> 
> This is the best i could find shipped. youre right very expensive : https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MRB6F9Q/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20
> 
> But this product is sterilized and heated so it might be worth it


That is way over priced. You can get 24 quarts of repti-bark for $18.09. That's 10 more quarts for about half the money.


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## Salspi (Dec 12, 2020)

I hear ya. The loaded with mites complaint is what bugs me(excuse pun). But i guess ill throw it in the freezer for a couple days and then boil the [email protected] out of it.


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## TeamZissou (Dec 13, 2020)

turtlesteve said:


> @TeamZissou I have never worked with Egyptians but this sounds close to how I would try to keep them and I want to see how it turns out. Like Tom, I am not really keen on the oyster shell substrate. The breeders promoting this have clearly perfected husbandry for the breeding adults, but not necessarily hatchlings, which commonly end up pyramiding.
> 
> With regards to the MVB’s, I have been testing MVB versus T8 this year and saw no difference, even with a 70W MVB at 8” distance from hatchlings. This was South African leopards. But, I am seeing differences between species in that 90-100% humidity works for leopards and redfoots, mostly works (not perfect) for platynota, but no bueno for Chacos (they still pyramid). I have some hunches as to why but need more hatchlings to test it all.



The Egyptian's the the German book (Biedenweg and Schramm 2019) range from being exceptionally smooth (almost like wild specimens) while others aren't perfectly smooth, they are generally smoother than what you see in the US. Of course, you never know the exact history of a tortoise, especially in this format.

Here's a synopsis of the setup:

Enclosure: closed chamber, 40"x 80" for adults, 2x4' for hatchlings
Lighting: fluorescent tubes UVA + UVB separate T5 fixtures. MVBs (70W) for basking, dialed in for UVI of 3. Additional lighting from LEDs.
Humidity: (ultrasonic) fogger run in the morning to bring the ambient humidity up to 55-65%. Night humidity raises to 70-80%. Additional water is sprayed from a garden sprayer, at most 2-3 times per week. The hatchling chamber receives more frequent spraying of water.
Substrate: building sand and loam power mixture. The loam is not soil, but rather a mixture of sand, silt, and clay particles. I suppose this may be a difference between US and EU definitions.
Halved clay pot hides buried in the sand. These also have humidity sensors at the base of the pot sticking through what is normally the drain hole. However, they do not say what humidity level is maintained in the hide.
Forced estivation: they make a big deal about emulating a natural yearly cycle in the book, so they crank up the heat in the closed chamber to 100 F to force the tortoises to estivate for a few months in the summer.
Soaking: not a lot of info here. Adults are soaked every 1-2 weeks. Hatchling are soaking frequency ('every now and then')
That's really a lot of UV. My main question is, with such high UV levels (from UVA, UVB, and MVBs)--and assuming this contributes to pyramiding, what could possibly offset that as a source of pyramiding aside from the difference in substrate and/or more humid hide opportunities? I know sand does not have a good track record, but it may allow the hatchlings to dig down and have moist sand directly on the shell compared to the oyster shell, which doesn't afford this opportunity. Of course, with oyster shell, people provide humid hides, but that may not be enough to offset being out and relatively dry the rest of the time. 

It's worth noting that they're not advocating constant use of the fogger. The use of the fogger is a lot like Tom's friend does, running it in the morning for a while and then off. Additional humidity is added via the spraying.

The other big unknown is the effect of the forced estivation for four months. They do this even with hatchlings. While this doesn't sound like a great idea to me, it could affect growth. Cranking up the heat forces the tortoises into the hides for extended periods of time. They still receive drinking water during this time, but the authors do not spray the substrate. It seems like they still run the fogger during this period, since the same humidity levels of 50-60% during the day are maintained. 

Anyway, that's why I wondered about running LEDs for ambient lighting, with UVB on for an hour a day. I figured the sand was worth a try even though it runs counter to what's advocated here on the forum. I guess we won't know until someone tries it. Either way, I think all we can say is that the ideal conditions to raise smooth Egyptians is still an open question.


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## TeamZissou (Dec 13, 2020)

Salspi said:


> Its not as smooth as I wanted but, nose bubbles aren’t an option I’m willing to live with.



@Salspi , what was your soaking protocol for this tortoise?


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## Salspi (Dec 13, 2020)

TeamZissou said:


> The Egyptian's the the German book (Biedenweg and Schramm 2019) range from being exceptionally smooth (almost like wild specimens) while others aren't perfectly smooth, they are generally smoother than what you see in the US. Of course, you never know the exact history of a tortoise, especially in this format.
> 
> Here's a synopsis of the setup:
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to post this!


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## Salspi (Dec 13, 2020)

TeamZissou said:


> @Salspi , what was your soaking protocol for this tortoise?



Everyday 10 min.... especially as hatchlings. One point id like to make is that you are Godzilla to a one inch hatchling. when you pick them up to put in the soak, only lift them a few inches off the substrate. And, soak them in the enclosure in the vicinity of the basking area. 95-100 degree water. I always picked them up slowly and calmly and they seemed to be less stressed by this.


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## Salspi (Dec 13, 2020)

However, i was doing that without a fogger setup. Im telling you, watch for nose bubbles. As soon as you see them, you know to back off on the water.


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## Salspi (Dec 13, 2020)

To be clear, I had my fogger set to 60% humidity. I didn’t have the 1 hour every morning system. Maybe this was the reason I encountered problems.


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## turtlesteve (Dec 13, 2020)

TeamZissou said:


> The Egyptian's the the German book (Biedenweg and Schramm 2019) range from being exceptionally smooth (almost like wild specimens) while others aren't perfectly smooth, they are generally smoother than what you see in the US. Of course, you never know the exact history of a tortoise, especially in this format.
> 
> Here's a synopsis of the setup:
> 
> ...



I now run LEDs with T5 for juvenile Chacos, it was one of several changes to fight pyramiding. Adding LEDs made the enclosure very bright and changes their behavior. They spend probably 21-22 hours a day hiding and are out only to eat and drink. I also gave them some live grass to hide under since I can now keep the grass alive and growing indoors. On a hunch I also dropped humidity to 85-90% at night and 60-65% mid-day. The last thing I did was change to a calcium supplement with a Ca / P ratio of about 3-4 and quit using straight calcium carbonate.

I have seen an immediate improvement. The problem is, I changed a whole bunch of stuff at the same time and I don’t know what was actually important.


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## Salspi (Dec 13, 2020)

turtlesteve said:


> I now run LEDs with T5 for juvenile Chacos, it was one of several changes to fight pyramiding. Adding LEDs made the enclosure very bright and changes their behavior. They spend probably 21-22 hours a day hiding and are out only to eat and drink. I also gave them some live grass to hide under since I can now keep the grass alive and growing indoors. On a hunch I also dropped humidity to 85-90% at night and 60-65% mid-day. The last thing I did was change to a calcium supplement with a Ca / P ratio of about 3-4 and quit using straight calcium carbonate.
> 
> I have seen an immediate improvement. The problem is, I changed a whole bunch of stuff at the same time and I don’t know what was actually important.


What night time temps are you keeping?


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## turtlesteve (Dec 13, 2020)

Salspi said:


> What night time temps are you keeping?



~68-75 at night and low-mid 80s day.


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## TeamZissou (Dec 14, 2020)

turtlesteve said:


> I now run LEDs with T5 for juvenile Chacos, it was one of several changes to fight pyramiding. Adding LEDs made the enclosure very bright and changes their behavior. They spend probably 21-22 hours a day hiding and are out only to eat and drink. I also gave them some live grass to hide under since I can now keep the grass alive and growing indoors. On a hunch I also dropped humidity to 85-90% at night and 60-65% mid-day. The last thing I did was change to a calcium supplement with a Ca / P ratio of about 3-4 and quit using straight calcium carbonate.
> 
> I have seen an immediate improvement. The problem is, I changed a whole bunch of stuff at the same time and I don’t know what was actually important.



It's good news that all the changes are working, 

What was the calcium product that you switched to called?


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## turtlesteve (Dec 14, 2020)

TeamZissou said:


> It's good news that all the changes are working,
> 
> What was the calcium product that you switched to called?



Powdered bone meal, which has a 2:1 Ca to P ratio by itself. So, I mix with the calcium carbonate I already had (1/3 to 1/2 of the total is calcium carbonate).


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## Salspi (Jan 2, 2021)

TeamZissou said:


> The Egyptian's the the German book (Biedenweg and Schramm 2019) range from being exceptionally smooth (almost like wild specimens) while others aren't perfectly smooth, they are generally smoother than what you see in the US. Of course, you never know the exact history of a tortoise, especially in this format.
> 
> Here's a synopsis of the setup:
> 
> ...



My guess is the forced estivation is the reason they are getting smoother shells. If they have a 3 month period where they are staying in a humid hide 95% of the day and out of any UV/Basking areas, this could easily be the reason why they are getting smoother shells in general. After speaking with Egyptian breeders, who swear by oyster shell for many reasons, it seems the perfect setup is to provide a dry substrate and humidity at the same time. Which is hard because they negate each other. My goal going forward is to keep the oyster shell substrate but try to keep a stable 50% humidity level in the enclosure. Supplementing this with humid hides ( terra cotta pot with saucer on top filled with water) will provide an area with 80+RH% for them to use. Other hides provided will have no water on top and just have the same humidity as the enclosure. The tortoises will tell me what they prefer. I think I may try the estivation technique this coming summer. If you think about it, sitting in an 80+% humid hide with 100 degree temperature for 3 months every year has got to be a main reason the europeans get smoother shells than the americans. Opinions?


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## Salspi (Jan 2, 2021)

Also, the humidity i provide will only come from water dishes, humidifying the tortoise room and water filled terra cotta saucers. My experience with foggers is terrible.


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## TeamZissou (Jan 2, 2021)

Salspi said:


> My guess is the forced estivation is the reason they are getting smoother shells. If they have a 3 month period where they are staying in a humid hide 95% of the day and out of any UV/Basking areas, this could easily be the reason why they are getting smoother shells in general. After speaking with Egyptian breeders, who swear by oyster shell for many reasons, it seems the perfect setup is to provide a dry substrate and humidity at the same time. Which is hard because they negate each other. My goal going forward is to keep the oyster shell substrate but try to keep a stable 50% humidity level in the enclosure. Supplementing this with humid hides ( terra cotta pot with saucer on top filled with water) will provide an area with 80+RH% for them to use. Other hides provided will have no water on top and just have the same humidity as the enclosure. The tortoises will tell me what they prefer. I think I may try the estivation technique this coming summer. If you think about it, sitting in an 80+% humid hide with 100 degree temperature for 3 months every year has got to be a main reason the europeans get smoother shells than the americans. Opinions?



The estivation is probably a factor. I don't know if the hides are super humid during the estivation. They seem to discontinue the misting of the substrate during that period. I also do not know if the feeding frequency/amount of food during that time is reduced. They didn't go into super detail about how much more misting the hatchling enclosure received, but it's more frequent compared to the adults.

The estivation may just be another mechanism that forces the tortoises into the hides. Another could possibly be that the light intensity is higher. With all the lighting sources, the overall intensity may also play a role in encouraging more time spent in the humid hides. This is the theme of what @turtlesteve talks about regarding his Chacos.

To be sure, the Egyptians in the book (and often on the Germany-based T. Kleinmanni group on Facebook) aren't perfectly smooth; there is still often a bit of pyramiding. On balance though, they are far smoother compared to US Egyptians.

The answer might end up being that baby Egyptians (any many other species) need to spend 20+ hours per day in humid hides to end up not pyramided. We as keepers like to see activity, but we may have to make peace with the fact that they just need to hide more.


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## Salspi (Jan 2, 2021)

That is my point. It doesnt matter what you do to cause them to spend more time in the hides. Whether you use higher temps, brighter lights or high UV levels, it doesnt matter. Its just a trigger to get them into the hides. And if you combine that with a hide that is comfortably humid for them, good results might be the outcome. Basically, its the same reason that people like the enclosed chamber with 80% humidity and 80 degrees for other tortoises. However, in my experience, egyptians need to be able to get out of the humidity if they want to. So, they may be a little bit different. Im going with the 50% humidity enclosure and humid hide route while on oyster shell substrate. We shall see what happens. This makes the most sense to me after speaking with knowledgeable breeders. As was told to me, the tortoises will tell you what they prefer. Seems logical.


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