# Can we talk a bit about guns?



## Yvonne G (Jun 5, 2012)

I'm 73 years old and my dog (doberman) is also old. She doesn't hear well and is almost blind. She is no protection because of her hearing. 

So, I had the vet out this a.m. because of an injury on my horse, and I mentioned I'm looking for a doberman pup. He said, "get a gun."

He made some good points. 

...I don't have to actually shoot it, just the sound of cocking, ratcheting? will deter
...I don't even have to aim a short barrel shot gun 

I don't think I could actually shoot someone, I mean with a bullet, but I'm pretty sure I could shoot a shot gun aimed lower, like at their feet.

I'm torn, because I really enjoy my dog's company and I'm going to miss that when she dies. But with all the home invasion robberies I'm quite uneasy here by myself at night.

Can we talk about this so I can get some more insight as to whether I want a shot gun or a pup?


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## StudentoftheReptile (Jun 5, 2012)

As far as home security goes, dogs can be tricked, distracted, bribed, poisoned, or shot themselves. I'm sure the personality, the genetics and the training of dog plays some role there, but I bet Tom could share better insight on that.

Guns don't have to be fed or watered everyday, or let out to go to the rest room. You can leave them in one spot, and that is where they will be when you need them. Obviously, a lot can be said for getting a gun that you're comfortable with, be familiar with it, and don't leave it anywhere irresponsible (i.e. places where little hands can find it!). But in general...while a large, upset dog is intimidating to an intruder, the sound of a firearm being cocked elicits a more visceral response: someone means business!

Although I'm only 30, I decided to get a gun for the same reasons. I hope I never have to use it, and chances are, I never will. But I take comfort in the fact that its an option. My dogs were great in letting me know when someone was around, but someone who is determined can find ways to deal with dogs. 

And plus...I say, get a gun before they pass a law that says you can't! That's my $.02


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## MarcaineArt (Jun 5, 2012)

Is having both not a possibility? While yes a gun is for the most part a one time expense and a dog requires feeding and vet care, a gun can't keep you company. Also an intruder may not hear the cocking of the gun but will hear the bark and growl of a dog. I am both a gun owner and a dog owner. Both have their places, their benefits, and their drawbacks. One of the main things that you said though is that you don't think you could shoot someone. If the intruder can get this impression as well from your behavior and body language the gun may not do you any good and could cause a problem if you are overpowered. I am 42 and, as I said have both guns and dogs. My dogs are not even very big but when anyone comes onto the property I know they are there and they know I am aware.


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## Baoh (Jun 5, 2012)

I prefer both. Also, you should not draw a weapon you are unwilling to use. It is not for show. If you brandish it, it escalates the situation. If the flight part of the fight-or-flight reaction occurs for the intruder, you would be fine. If the fight part dominates, you have to be willing to protect your safety. Try out a number of guns at a range and see which feel comfortable in your hands (balance and so on). Then, after practice with your choices, make your selection. I would go with ones known for reliability. I prefer dogs for the warning signals they send when someone is around and you may not be aware of it. They tend to notice things before we do.


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## Yvonne G (Jun 5, 2012)

That's the way I was thinking too, Baoh. I thought that the sound of a shot gun being cocked might be a deterrent. But the dog gives me company plus peace of mind because it hears what I don't.


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## wellington (Jun 5, 2012)

I agree with all the above. If you are uncomfortable in getting a gun, you could take some lessons. I would do both. A dog for company and added first alert protection, the gun for the final answer, if you get what I mean. As far as shooting someone. Don't forget, it's you or them, make it them. Good luck in whatever you choose and hopefully you will never have to use either for protection.


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## Zamric (Jun 5, 2012)

Guns -vs- Dogs....

Always a Debateable Subject!

#1] A Dog can be by your side 24/7. A Gun must be placed someplace accessable Like bed side table (but what to do if break-in happens when your NOT in the bedroom?)

#2] EVERYONE who owns a gun SHOULD go thru a "Gun Control Class"

#3] Unless you purchase a Trained Dog, a puppy will be useless for the 1st year or so.


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## dmmj (Jun 5, 2012)

While I would say get both, getting a gun is a personal choice. I always stress though a gun is meant to kill, if you are unsure if whether or not you can shoot a person it might not be a good choice for you. Classes and training are essential.

Just give me a warning if you get one, in case I decide to sneak onto your property one night


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## Zamric (Jun 5, 2012)

dmmj said:


> Just give me a warning if you get one, in case I decide to sneak onto your poroperty one night



Oh, you'll be safe enough.... after all theres a pretty good chance she'll miss you completely on the 1st couple of shots!


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## Tom (Jun 5, 2012)

Hmm...

This a a personal choice that each person must make. "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice...". Sorry, that's a lyric from a "Rush" song, but it seemed to fit well.

I truly think the best choice is both. They each have their good and bad points. Both things are simply parts of my general security strategy.

One thing I must point out is that when you see someone click the hammer back, or rack the shotgun slide in the movies, you are witnessing a HUGE tactical error. If you are confronting an intruder and feel the need to be armed while doing so, you should have already chambered a round, verified it with a press check, keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on a target, and disengage the safety, all BEFORE commencing any sort of search or confrontation. To walk around looking for a bad guy and then racking your slide or shotgun upon finding said criminal is foolish. If you were to be surprised by the person or an accomplice and did not have a round already chambered, it could be disastrous. Likewise, if there already was a round chambered, it would be foolish to eject a round and or be manipulating your weapon in the face of a potentially dangerous intruder.

Anyhow, the first course of action, in my opinion, is to go take a basic firearms class, with a qualified instructor. Some schools offer ladies classes that make some women feel more comfortable too. Once you have a class under your belt and learn about proper handling and safety, as well as all the laws for firearms ownership, use, and deadly force legalities, then you will be able to make a more informed decision.

Lastly, I have to agree with Barb here. If it comes down to you or them, please make it them. The world is much better with you in it.


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## tortadise (Jun 5, 2012)

I always say to myself. "make sure you have a plan A and plan B". I have a wonderful dog but never know really how well he would react to an invasive situation. Lots of times dogs can be possessive dominant and protective over their master. But when left to hold down the fort can be lured into submission. So, I would say if your personally fine with handling a firearm and willing to ensure the safety courses (which I recommend) and a new pup. Always good to have plan A&B. I have lots of guns but never intend to use them unless at last measure have to. And I also think your right. I believe everybody knows what a 12 gauge being pumped means. "get the **** out of my house criminal"


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## Jacob (Jun 5, 2012)

Having both might be great, but you have many tortoises to take care of and that you love.
A Gun isnt a bad idea tho, specially a shotgun classes would be very smart to take to just in case
and so you have proper handling etc.


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## terryo (Jun 5, 2012)

Forget the puppy. Go to a shelter and get a large adult Doberman or German Shepard. My friend lives up state in a log cabin and her husband recently died and that's what she did. Her new, male Doberman is over 100 lbs, and has become very protective of her now. A dog is great company too. As for the gun, go for lessons, and find which one is right for you and get that too. If you have to shoot, aim a bit lower then the stomach. Just my 2 cents.


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## TylerStewart (Jun 5, 2012)

I agree with most of the above, get both if possible. If you're going to shoot, shoot to kill. I think dogs are a great deterrent even if they're small because just the barking alerts people that something is going on. Our dogs wouldn't hurt a fly around the house and property, but if you peek over the back wall, they go crazy barking and growling and you'd be crazy to jump over. My wife went jogging early one morning last winter and came home with baggy clothes on and a beanie in the dark and just about got tackled because they didn't know who she was. They had her cornered and were ready to attack when I realized what was going on and broke it up. I've never seen them act like that. We never trained them to do really anything fancy, but they were real defensive when they thought it mattered, and I sleep better every night because of it! We have bullmastiffs. The gun is a good backup plan, but realistically without the dogs, you could make quite a bit of noise (and probably make it into my bedroom) before I would be awake, but they'd be watching and would wake me up pretty quick.


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## ijmccollum (Jun 5, 2012)

I don't do guns...i might actually use it...i'm a pretty wicked woman with a base ball bat and hand to hand combat....and if i don't get you, the dog will.


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## wellington (Jun 5, 2012)

TylerStewart said:


> I agree with most of the above, get both if possible. If you're going to shoot, shoot to kill. I think dogs are a great deterrent even if they're small because just the barking alerts people that something is going on. Our dogs wouldn't hurt a fly around the house and property, but if you peek over the back wall, they go crazy barking and growling and you'd be crazy to jump over. My wife went jogging early one morning last winter and came home with baggy clothes on and a beanie in the dark and just about got tackled because they didn't know who she was. They had her cornered and were ready to attack when I realized what was going on and broke it up. I've never seen them act like that. We never trained them to do really anything fancy, but they were real defensive when they thought it mattered, and I sleep better every night because of it! We have bullmastiffs. The gun is a good backup plan, but realistically without the dogs, you could make quite a bit of noise (and probably make it into my bedroom) before I would be awake, but they'd be watching and would wake me up pretty quick.
> 
> https://store-
> 6bee4.mybigcommerce.com/product_images/uploaded_images/cutepuppies.jpg[/
> ...


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## Kerryann (Jun 5, 2012)

I have dogs and guns. I personally would not use my dogs for protection. I will be putting the dogs behind me, if I can and protecting myself with the gun. To be comfortable enough to handle a gun in a stressful situation you need to be practiced with the gun. We own several guns and I can shoot and load all of them. I want to get to the point where I can tear them all down or fix issues. 
Someone else in the thread said that if you have the gun in hand and your finger on the trigger, you should be ready to shoot. The seconds you take fumbling to unlock the safety, rack the gun, or chamber your bullets can be your last seconds alive. 
A shotgun is not the best home defense. I thought this too and my hard head had to go through some serious tactical training to learn why that is. I was once told that someone hearing shotgun rack is a deterrent also, and it made sense to me. It was hard to beat out of my head. 
I would suggest you go to a gun range, take a safety course, and shoot some different guns until you feel comfortable with what you like. My husband likes a 1911 .45 but I prefer a glock 9mm. I actually prefer long guns to pistols. I would rather defend my home with one of the ARs as opposed to a pistol, but I am comfortable I can do it with any gun we own.
Also for additional security you could take a personal defense class like krav maga. I am getting ready to take a tactical krav maga class where I learn how to manage a fight and use a weapon if necessary. 
Now.. if I could just teach the tortoises krav maga and they could be like extra little ninjas


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## Madkins007 (Jun 5, 2012)

A gaziliion years ago, as part of my training to work in a largish hardware store (back when employees actually KNEW stuff), we had a basic program in home security. I don't remember all of it, but based on that training, you may be thinking too narrowly.

1. Don't make your house a target. Do not show off wealth or possessions, never leave boxes for big screen TVs in the trash, etc. Also- never let mail, newspaper, etc. accumulate and keep the yard looking cared for.

2. Encourage them to move on. Exterior lighting, neighborhood watch signs, closed and locked doors- especially garages. Good locks and reinforced door plates, etc. really help as do automatic internal lights (look for those with random functions, and use them in places where the light can be seen from the street, but not the source of the light- bathrooms are especially good for this!. Adding radios and TVs thoughtfully helps as well.)

2a. Indications you have an alarm system are a mixed blessing. It often deters punks, but suggests to pros that there is something worth protecting, thus worth stealing. Warnings about guns are about the same- and a lot of crooks target homes with guns!

2b. Indications of a big, trained dog, however, are almost always a deterrent. 'Beware of dog sign' with a big dog pictured is a good start, but more subtle things like a dog bowl with a little food around it and a water dish topped off daily, a couple well-chewed toys (from friends upgrading theirs?), a chunk of visible doo, etc. can make a person casing the house move on.

3. Make it hard to get in. Good locks and reinforced jambs, locked windows, no hiding places, no easy access to upper areas, motion-sensing lights. The very best thing, however, are alert, interested, and friendly to you neighbors (an occasional banana bread buys a lot of security!)

4. Once in, make them want to leave quickly. Alarms and panic buttons are good, but not perfect. A dog barking recording on a motion sensor can help... but it is kind of an old trick now. Making valuables hard to find is usually a good plan- but a pro who has time on his side will just systematically search and destroy to find what they want. 

5. Avoid confrontation. Statistically, it is safer to hide than to confront- unless you really mean it and have some confidence you can win. This is obviously a personal decision, but there is no shame in surviving to identify and prosecute the crook. If you DO go the gun route, do some research about what kind of weapon suits your needs best and get the right training and practice with it.

6. Maximize odds of recovery and prosecution. Marking and photo-documenting your stuff (good for insurance purposes, as well), etc.

A bit off topic, but maybe helpful.


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## bigred (Jun 5, 2012)

My whole family is into guns and they have way to many. The State of Calif. didnt think it would be a good idea if I owned a gun so I dont have one. I think you should get both and the dog can alert you to noises outside. If someone comes it your house, shoot them. Doesnt have to be a big gun, it can be a smaller gun that a 73 year old can handle. Im moving in August to a duplex that is shared by my Mom. Im moving there so she wont be alone. She wouldnt move in with us so we are moving next door to her. She is 88 and we are moving to a smaller place with a way smaller tort yard


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## Jacqui (Jun 5, 2012)

MarcaineArt said:


> Is having both not a possibility? While yes a gun is for the most part a one time expense and a dog requires feeding and vet care, a gun can't keep you company. Also an intruder may not hear the cocking of the gun but will hear the bark and growl of a dog. I am both a gun owner and a dog owner. Both have their places, their benefits, and their drawbacks. One of the main things that you said though is that you don't think you could shoot someone. If the intruder can get this impression as well from your behavior and body language the gun may not do you any good and could cause a problem if you are overpowered. I am 42 and, as I said have both guns and dogs. My dogs are not even very big but when anyone comes onto the property I know they are there and they know I am aware.



I am not going to write a reply, because this one nicely says it all for me. I was always also a believer, if you have a gun in your hand, you had better be ready to use it or it could as stated increase the danger you could be in.


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## ascott (Jun 5, 2012)

Yvonne, I hope you understand that if you should find an intruder in your house---they are there to do nothing but harm and turmoil....so if you should choose to get a firearm, get one that is readily comfortable in your hands...one that has a kick back that you can handle and not cause you to drop the firearm during firing....

A dog would be a fantastic companion. A dog can be a thinking weapon vs a firearm is based on all that you see and hear....you may even think about acquiring a trained guard dog---protection and companion all in one (you really will want to deal with a reputable source for this because personality and stability of the dog is of the utmost importance--and other than outright killing of this type of dog an intruder would not have the same success in tricking nor poisoning of this type of dog as this should be part of its training)..

A firearm is a necessary tool in a home where there may ever be a chance of an intruder D) I believe that would be every home....my 12 year old son is also comfortable and willing and has been directed and been made familiar with our firearms by myself..also that if ever he found himself in a position to defend himself in our home against an intruder----he is to fire fire fire with the intent to make the intruder go from live to dead, as the intruder is not there to do any good....

I hope you will get enough input here to assist you in making the choice that will work for you dear.


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## tyguy35 (Jun 5, 2012)

I'm a bit biased on the situation. I'm a military man so gun would be my first thought but at the same time guns can be very dangerous. A gun can go off for no reason at all injuring anyone. I seen a semi auto pistol fired and went full auto the person involved was not ready and the last bullet caught his chin. But if you follow the rules and safety I'm sure a gun can be a great deterent. Although a theif doesn't see a gun loaded he would see a dog with a mouth full of teeth and move to the next house. I theif will go for what's easiest not always but in most cases he doesn't want to deal with a dog attack.


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## Angi (Jun 5, 2012)

If I lived alone I would have both.
I agree with Tyler, If you pull a gun. be ready to kill.
If someone breaks in your house with you there, they will probably kill you if you don't kill them first. It is your house. You belong there they don't so if someone has to die it should not be you.
Madkins- great tips.
Kerryann- My son took Krav mega about 7 years ago. He is 18 now and yesterday he told me how glad he was that he had that training, but I am not sure I would recomend it to a 70+ lady. I took him to all his classes and he really got knocked around. At 46 I don't think my body could take that.
Good luck with what ever you decide Yvonne.


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## Eweezyfosheezy (Jun 5, 2012)

I recommend both as well. A dog will deter someone from coming into the house if it is barking its head off and alerting everyone in the house that someone is coming. And a gun can be a safe haven so if someone did break in you have some guaranteed protection if you know how to properly work a gun.


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## dmmj (Jun 5, 2012)

I think we should get yvonne a sign that says " I am here to kick *** and chew bubblegum, and I am all out of bubblegum."


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## ijmccollum (Jun 6, 2012)

I second that.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Jun 6, 2012)

Madkins007 said:


> 1. Don't make your house a target.
> 
> 2. Encourage them to move on. Exterior lighting, neighborhood watch signs, closed and locked doors- especially garages. Good locks and reinforced door plates, etc. really help as do automatic internal lights
> 
> ...



I agree with this!

Mark's right. Most burglars are looking for the highest payoff for the lowest effort. They want to get in and get out as easily as possible, and if it doesn't appear the "mark" is worth their time, they likely will move on.


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## TylerStewart (Jun 6, 2012)

Madkins007 said:


> 1. Don't make your house a target. Do not show off wealth or possessions, never leave boxes for big screen TVs in the trash



Let's be honest, big screen TVs are so friggin cheap nowadays at Costco, I'm not sure they're worth the effort of kicking in the door in anymore, especially knowing that you gotta carry that thing out 

Mastiffs probably do have a bad sense of smell in comparison to other dogs, but mine are very alert and hear and see everything, 24/7. The problem I have with relying on a gun (don't get me wrong, I have multiple) is that you have to be aware of what's going on, and a burglar doesn't ring the doorbell or walk up at 12 noon singing a song.... In all reality, if one was to break in, it would be very quietly in the middle of the night. By the time you wake up, you'd have almost no time to do anything, in most cases. By then, my dogs would be all over it. For that reason, I still think a dog is a better "starting point" but if for some reason somebody can fight through your dog, you'd have time by then to have a gun ready to shoot.


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## Nay (Jun 6, 2012)

What a funny thiing to be reading on a "Tortoise Forum"!!! Almost as good as"Oh I joined a book club on my Tortoise fourm!!!
TerryO's message was my first thought also. and everyone's points are all spot on..
I found so much fun in learning to shot a bow and pistal with my hubby, I have kept up archery for many years. (And I never thought to do any of that when I was young.). You may turn out to be the next Annie Oakly or something!
Keep us updated!!
Nay


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## Edna (Jun 6, 2012)

Pup first, gun next, for two reasons:
First, a large breed/guard dog pup becomes a deterrant long before it reaches maturity, partly because a good percentage of people fear them and partly because they begin alterting to sounds and strangers long before they are mature or trained. My GSD was scaring the socks off people when he was 6 months old, and he was one with a softer personality. Breed+big teeth+loud bark=scary.
Second, the simple version of the story is that humans and dogs live together because many many years ago those with dogs were more likely to survive bear attacks. Dogs' protective nature and willingness to take on the dangers for us are at the heart of our relationship with them. Companionship probably came later. We aren't using dogs for protection as much as giving them an opportunity to do what they prefer in that situation.

I have a handgun, but don't like it at all and am not likely to even get it out. My club (diamond willow!) and hatchet would be my first choices for self-defense.


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## ijmccollum (Jun 6, 2012)

bamboo staff works for me....and of course the dog....gratefully I have the hubbie too, but he is not always home, but the 100lb dog is.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Jun 6, 2012)

Edna said:


> Pup first, gun next, for two reasons:
> First, a large breed/guard dog pup becomes a deterrant long before it reaches maturity, partly because a good percentage of people fear them and partly because they begin alterting to sounds and strangers long before they are mature or trained. My GSD was scaring the socks off people when he was 6 months old, and he was one with a softer personality. Breed+big teeth+loud bark=scary.
> Second, the simple version of the story is that humans and dogs live together because many many years ago those with dogs were more likely to survive bear attacks. Dogs' protective nature and willingness to take on the dangers for us are at the heart of our relationship with them. Companionship probably came later. We aren't using dogs for protection as much as giving them an opportunity to do what they prefer in that situation.



Good point!



> My club (diamond willow!) and hatchet would be my first choices for self-defense.





> bamboo staff works for me



Now we're talking! I know projectile weapons can only go so far compared to a bullet shot from a gun barrel...but in the confined space of a hallway or bedroom, I believe I would trust my skills with my nightstick, spear, machete, or any one of the several knives I keep around the house about as much as I do holding a handgun.


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## Kerryann (Jun 6, 2012)

Angi said:


> If I lived alone I would have both.
> I agree with Tyler, If you pull a gun. be ready to kill.
> If someone breaks in your house with you there, they will probably kill you if you don't kill them first. It is your house. You belong there they don't so if someone has to die it should not be you.
> Madkins- great tips.
> ...



Krav Maga fighting classes are what your son took. They also have krav maga self defense classes where you don't end up with bloody noses and black eyes. 
The fighting classes are honestly the best if you can take the abuse, because they teach you how to fight under stress. If you don't fight back in class you will get a whooping, but the self defense classes are more about basic moves that you can do to throw the person attacking you off their footing, or to escape a grapple. I would think anyone with a home intruder worry of any age could take the self defense classes.


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## Laura (Jun 6, 2012)

emysemys said:


> That's the way I was thinking too, Baoh. I thought that the sound of a shot gun being cocked might be a deterrent. But the dog gives me company plus peace of mind because it hears what I don't.



Yep. this is what I was going to say... plus the dogs give you companionship. Most bad guys will not want to go to a house with a barking dog.. if they do and they get in.. then you want the gun. A Shot gun is great.. the sound it makes as a warning you are armed, its easy to use and you dont have to aim perfect...


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## ascott (Jun 6, 2012)

LMAOfffff Captain.....I think you could make a bundle on those signs...and hell, if I were a burglar and walked up to a house that had that sign ...I would be discovered right away by me laughing so damn hard.....lol


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## Madkins007 (Jun 6, 2012)

TylerStewart said:


> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> > 1. Don't make your house a target. Do not show off wealth or possessions, never leave boxes for big screen TVs in the trash
> ...



You are right. When we took the class I remember the photo was a typical neighborhood on trash day and we were asked which houses looked 'ripe'. This was back when a big TV was a big deal (and not flatscreened). 

There were big TV boxes, computer boxes, and lots of other stuff just screaming "I JUST MADE A BIG NEW PURCHASE! ROB ME!" 

I had never thought about that before, but at the time it was apparently a pretty common way for thieves to figure out where to hit.


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## Kerryann (Jun 6, 2012)

Madkins007 said:


> TylerStewart said:
> 
> 
> > Madkins007 said:
> ...



You should just break down the boxes and recycle them. Actually I drive around here on trash day and in addition to seeing all of the boxes, my neighbor has a ton of boxes every week, it amazes me how much trash most houses generate.


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## bigred (Jun 6, 2012)

dmmj said:


> I think we should get yvonne a sign that says " I am here to kick *** and chew bubblegum, and I am all out of bubblegum."



That was pretty funny


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jun 9, 2012)

emysemys said:


> I'm 73 years old and my dog (doberman) is also old. She doesn't hear well and is almost blind. She is no protection because of her hearing.
> 
> So, I had the vet out this a.m. because of an injury on my horse, and I mentioned I'm looking for a doberman pup. He said, "get a gun."
> 
> ...



Dogs are great (got a few myself). but, as previousy mentioned, dogs can be killed.

Get a pump 12-guage, Yvonne, *and aim dead center*...if he's in your home, he's in range so that just pointing the shotgum at him and pulling that trigger will change his plans.

And, if someone is invading your home, he's obviously not got the best intentions, and if he finds you at home, he may not choose to leave a witness! 

These are the hard truths that we see on the evening news much too often, and you need to adopt the mindset "_Him or me? It's a shame about him!_" This is exactly what I've taught my wife and daughter because I put the value of their lives over that of a burglar/rapist/?. Value yourself in the same way.

If the sound of the 12-guage's ratchet doesn't send him fleeing, he's too stupid to pass his genes on, anyway...


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