# Sulcata hiding for days



## sulcata sam (Feb 13, 2010)

My 5yr old Sulcata is very healthy, according to the vet that routinely checks on him. I have noticed in the past few weeks he buries himself (indoor inclosure) for a day or two at a time. He never did this before, everyday he was out walking and eating. It is the middle of winter here, but he has always been only indoors. He has a big pen, with proper lighting for day and night. Is there anything to worry about, that he hides for a day or two at a time? Nothing has changed in his diet or habitat.

Thanks


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## -EJ (Feb 14, 2010)

Where do you live?




sulcata sam said:


> My 5yr old Sulcata is very healthy, according to the vet that routinely checks on him. I have noticed in the past few weeks he buries himself (indoor inclosure) for a day or two at a time. He never did this before, everyday he was out walking and eating. It is the middle of winter here, but he has always been only indoors. He has a big pen, with proper lighting for day and night. Is there anything to worry about, that he hides for a day or two at a time? Nothing has changed in his diet or habitat.
> 
> Thanks


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## sulcata sam (Feb 14, 2010)

I live in Wisconsin. I have had him for 5 years and he never has gone "dormant" for days on end. I have been giving him handfuls more Timothy Hay lately ( as well as his greens), being that he was eating what I gave him in a short time. A pile of hay remains when he is done feasting...maybe creating burrowing material he didn't use to have? He hides under the mound of hay. I also have about 3" of plain CareFresh on the bottom of the entire pen. Guess that in itself was not enough for him to totally bury himself in before. Is it possible, now that he has enough substrate he can dig his way into complete hiding, and likes to stay hidden? Just making sure he isn't hiding because something else is wrong. I love this little guy and have done everything for him.

Where do you live?




sulcata sam said:


> My 5yr old Sulcata is very healthy, according to the vet that routinely checks on him. I have noticed in the past few weeks he buries himself (indoor inclosure) for a day or two at a time. He never did this before, everyday he was out walking and eating. It is the middle of winter here, but he has always been only indoors. He has a big pen, with proper lighting for day and night. Is there anything to worry about, that he hides for a day or two at a time? Nothing has changed in his diet or habitat.
> 
> Thanks


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## Yvonne G (Feb 14, 2010)

Hi Sulcata Sam:







to the forum!!

If I'm understanding you correctly, your 5 yr old sulcata is indoors? My first impression was that he isn't warm enough. 

My 20 year old sulcata lives outdoors in a heated shed, however, during the winter, he seems to "hide" quite a bit more than he does in the summer. 

If your house is warm and you keep the lights on for 12 to 14 hours a day, he should act the same way summer or winter. How big is his enclosure and have you measured the temp at different spots around the enclosure?

(Ed's question about where you live was so he could figure out what your weather is like and answer your question with a little more knowledge)


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## Tom (Feb 14, 2010)

Welcome to the forum. I think I can safely speak for everyone when I say, "we'd love to see pics of him and his enclosure". Also, how big is he? Length and weight? You say you've had him for five years. Do you know how old he is? None of this has much to do with your question, I just love sulcatas and I'm nosey.


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## Annieski (Feb 14, 2010)

I'm not as experienced as everyone else on this forum but you said Carefresh in at the bottom of the enclosure. Isn't that "kitty litter"? And is this new for your tort to have it as substrate? Perhaps if he ate it along with his hay, he ate too much and he is plugged-up. My vet told me " the poop you see today is what was eaten 7-10 days ago.


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## Maggie Cummings (Feb 14, 2010)

I agree with the others, my first thought was that he is not warm enough and I personally wouldn't use Carefresh as a substrate. His core temp (inside him) needs to be in the area for 85 to 90 degrees so he can metabolize his food. If his core temp isn't that high he can't process his food so his own instinct tells him not to eat. His basking spot needs to be around 95 degrees to make his core temp 85 to 90 degrees. So ...can he be too cold? Can he be blocked from eating his substrate? You need to correctly answer those questions as well as those EJ asked you...


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## sulcata sam (Feb 14, 2010)

Good news, Sam has come out and ate all the greens that I left him. I appreciate the help and advice and will attempt to answer your questions. Any knowledge I obtain about keeping him happy and healthy are appreciated. 

I attached 2 pictures of him also. He is about 3lbs. and 7-8" long. I had him since he was the size of a quarter.


He has an enclosure 8-feet long and 18" wide. Soon it is time to build him his next enclosure. At one end is a "Zoo-Med" 160w Powersun UV light. That is on about 12 hours a day, and at night I have (at the other end) a 100w red heat lamp. He does his hiding in a pile of hay, which is only a foot from the day UV lamp. So it appears as if he is hiding from the heat, or maybe because the mound of grass was there, is why he settled in that spot. He's not use to a big brush pile.

The temperature at the warm UV end is about 85, and 92 about 2 inches above his shell, under the light itself. At night just the heat lamp is on. Not always does he sleep under it either. My house temp is always around 72.

I was told Carefresh works fine for tortoises. It is just recycled newspaper, I think. So if they eat it, there is nothing harmful in it. Although I keep him well fed and he's never eaten it, to my knowledge.

I just gave him some fresh green kale leaves and he ran for it and is eating like a pig (tortoise).

I think he is fine, looks good and is eating ravenously like always. So my question is...there was a lot of grass in the cage and he buried himself in it. In the past he hasn't had enough substrate to actually cover himself. So this was a new experience for him. Should I be giving him enough material so he can completely cover up? And, when he does bury himself, is it normal to stay buried for a day or two? That is the new behavior that started this concern.


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## tortoisenerd (Feb 14, 2010)

Welcome! Did you just measure these temperatures, or are they from awhile ago? With reptile lighting as your indoor temperature and humidity changes you will need to make adjustments. I measure the temps every few days and move my bulb up or down to maintain the same temperature. 92 deg two inches above the shell also sounds too cold. You want about 95 at the top of the shell (so a little less than that at ground level). I think you would be better off with a humid substrate such as cyprus mulch, orchid bark, organic soil, or coconut coir. As far as dry substrates go, aspen would be better in my opinion than Carefresh because it is not quite as absorbent (some believe that a highly absorbent dry substrate can literally suck the moisture away from the tort). Some torts do just go through funks as well. They can feel the pressure changes, and even with those who have never hibernated they will slow down a bit in winter typically. What do you feed him? I'd love to see enclosure pictures. Does he go outside in warm weather? What will you do when he gets even bigger? Wow! Yes, a deep substrate is best to simulate their natural environment. But, I think he should be coming out every day to move around, eat, and bask. I will move my tort to do this if he is not, and then try to figure out why he is staying hidden. Like I said, many times for me it will just be a funk and he'll get over it in a couple days. What are the temps in the areas not under the lights? With that huge of an enclosure the heat gradients do not go that far out so the rest I assume is 72 deg. That is too cold for the majority of the enclosure, that should only be a part of it. I think you need to figure out a better heating scenario for the large enclosure as a MVB plus one heat bulb does not sound like enough at all. Him spending time in the low 70s could explain the behavior. Do you have multiple hides in warm areas? Torts will either stay in the cold area with no warm hide, or burrow near the warmth. Having warm hides will encourage him to stay warm. Best wishes.


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## Tom (Feb 14, 2010)

I think Kate is steering you the right direction. Do you have a thermometer with a remote probe or an infared temp gun? You really need one or the other, or both, so you can regularly check temps as the seasons change. Your cool and warm side temps sound okay to me, but your basking SPOT is too cool. I get a tortoise sized rock or brick and put it right under the hot spot for a good hour. Measure the temp at the top of this. I like it around 115-120 at that height for sulcatas. (Think bright, mid-day sunshine on the African plains.) You can then raise or lower your bulb to get the desired temp. As a general rule when I see unusual lethargy, especially during winter, I bump the temps up and see if anything changes.

Tortoise have been kept on any substrate known to man. Just because its non-toxic doesn't mean they can't eat it and get impacted. Even though he's feeling better, I would still recommend daily warm, shallow water soaks in a large tub for at least thirty minutes. Bathtubs work great. Usually they try to start walking out of it pretty quickly and this gives them a lot of exercise which will help move stuff through the digestive tract. If he's not blocked with a tummy ache, at least he'll be well hydrated and exercised. In other words, even if this isn't your problem, it won't hurt anything. Also, since they usually poop a lot in the tub, it will keep your enclosure cleaner.

Its great that he seems to be feeling better, but both of these subjects need to be addressed. Also, like Kate said (7-10 days), keep an eye on the stools for the next couple of weeks to see if this problem was, indeed, caused by something in his stomach. This will give you insight into preventing the same thing down the road.

Might as well cover all the bases. SUNSHINE! Sunshine has an amazing effect on tortoises health and vitality. If you don't have a large, safe, outdoor pen for use during warmer weather, you ought to. I believe this is necessary for several species of tortoise, but good for all of them. For colder days, the bulbs you have are the best substitute that I know of.

BTW, your little guy is about the same size mine were at that age, which means he is growing on the slow side. Most people agree that this is a good thing. My twelve year old boys are just 35 and 40 pounds and around 18". Some of them seem to grow much faster. I honestly don't know if its the amount of food, genetics or what.

I'm glad you are here. I wish I had this crowd behind me five years into my first sulcata. Keep those questions( and those pics ) coming. We are all still learning so any updates will give us insight and help us to solve future mysteries for other people.


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## Stephanie Logan (Feb 14, 2010)

Welcome to the forum Sam! 

Your Sulcata is a cutie and certainly seems a well-fed guy...nice sturdy, strong legs and a tranquil face...

Good luck with your endeavor to tweak his habitat so that he is satisfied you are "spoiling" him properly.


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## sulcata sam (Feb 15, 2010)

Thanks everyone for all the help and suggestions. I have my work cut out for me. Sam is very healthy and doing well, but I see from reading your responses that he could be doing better. I am going to get a better thermometer and do some more accurate readings and adjust his lighting accordingly. Also, I'll look into a different substrate for him as well.

Yes, Sam is also a bit small for his age. He is solid as a rock and surprisingly heavy for his size. He is growing steady and no pyramiding shell. There will come a day he will be part of the household, walking around with us. Then the real modifications start.

As I find out more about his environment changes and have questions I'll post again.

Thanks


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## Yvonne G (Feb 15, 2010)

Hi Sulcata Sam:

You say your baby has no pyramiding, however, he IS starting to pyramid. And two ways to help stop that are either using a substrate you can moisten or providing a humid hiding place for him.

I personally would NOT use the Care Fresh. Just because you were told it was ok to use, doesn't mean it really is ok to use. If you tear off a piece of newspaper and chew on it you notice that you soon have a pretty soggy lump of paste in your mouth. I can only imagine what that would look like as it travels down your digestive system. It might dissolve in the gastric juices, but then again, it might not, causing impaction. Plus, if you moisten it, it will mold.

I like to use cypress mulch as substrate, but there are many others that you can use that can be moistened.

Or if you opt for a humid hide, you can either glue a moistened sponge inside the ceiling of his hiding place or provide moist sphagnum moss inside the hide. Terryo soaks her half logs until they have absorbed water and then the hide itself provides the humidity.


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## sulcata sam (Feb 15, 2010)

I guess a picture is worth a thousand words. So you say he is pyramiding. Guess I'll add your suggestions to my list of options and changes to research. Not too many general pet people know much about Sulcatas, so I am glad I found this forum to fine-tune what I've been doing so far. Thanks again!


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