# Vivariums for Tortoises



## Kadaan (Nov 30, 2009)

EJ mentioned in another thread that vivariums are vehemently discouraged on the UK reptile forum as habitats for tortoises.

Provided you can keep the vivarium at the proper temperatures with a heat gradient, basking spot, adequate humidity, and ventilation so the air doesn't get stale, what's wrong with a vivarium?


Some possible arguments:

"Tortoises will try to walk through the glass and get stressed" - This is true for open-top enclosures with transparent sides, and is more an argument against glass walls than directly against a vivarium. A short sight barrier of tape/paper a couple inches high is enough to still allow you to view inside.

"There's no ventilation!" - I don't know what 'adequate ventilation' would be, but as long as there's a decent section of screened area to allow air to flow through the enclosure I'd think it would be fine. The showcase cages have a strip of screening that goes lengthwise across about 1/3 of the top, and creates a gap when stacked to allow air to flow through:









What are the other reasons against a vivarium?


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## Yvonne G (Nov 30, 2009)

They're usually built with sides that are too high, and this is where the no ventilation theory came into play. Obviously Terryo has made an aquarium work for her. Her little Redfoot is a beautiful specimen.


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## Rhyno47 (Nov 30, 2009)

I only use vivs for my aquatic species. I am going to replace them with opaque containers soon though.


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## chairman (Dec 1, 2009)

Kadaan said:


> Provided you can keep the vivarium at the proper temperatures with a heat gradient, basking spot, adequate humidity, and ventilation so the air doesn't get stale, what's wrong with a vivarium?



Therein lies the crux of the viv argument, I think. "Vivariums" as most people understand them are fish tanks. They're too tall, don't have enough floor space, don't allow ventilation, don't allow for temperature gradients, yadda yadda yadda. Personally, I think vivs can be great homes for torts. They certainly seem to have treated my torts well. 

I think that vivs are much hated because the 'stereotypical' viv owner is the one who goes to supersizepetstoreusa and buys a baby sulcata to live in a 10 galllon tank and then procedes to feed it nothing but lettuce a couple times a week if they remember to pick it up while they're at the grocery store. 

For folks that are willing to spend the time and energy to research other people's opinions on the needs of their torts, acceptable vivs can be put together, whether they be a permanent home for a small tort, a bad-weather only home, or a temporary home for torts too small or too sick to be placed elsewhere.


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## bettinge (Dec 1, 2009)

I think that vivs are much hated because the 'stereotypical' viv owner is the one who goes to supersizepetstoreusa and buys a baby sulcata to live in a 10 galllon tank and then procedes to feed it nothing but lettuce a couple times a week if they remember to pick it up while they're at the grocery store. 

For folks that are willing to spend the time and energy to research other people's opinions on the needs of their torts, acceptable vivs can be put together, whether they be a permanent home for a small tort, a bad-weather only home, or a temporary home for torts too small or too sick to be placed elsewhere.
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Well written.....I agree!


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## terryo (Dec 1, 2009)

I also use planted vivariums for all my boxies when inside. I like the fact that they are high because it gives the plants room to grow. I have a screen top for air flow. I cover the back, sides, and about 6 - 7 inches across the front. I have never had anyone ...boxies or my tortoise try to get out or get stressed. The plants provide natural cover, and I put plenty of leaf litter on one side for them to dig in and hide. I don't use any half log or any other kind of hide in the boxie's vivarium. I try to keep it as natural as I can, and only probide the plants and leaf litter for them to hide in. But my tortoise has a hide in his viv. I love planted vivariums for humidity loving species, and have been doing this for boxies for well over 20 years...while they are inside. 
I also like vivariums because they look good, and you can keep them in a part of the house that lets you interact with your "pet". Once they reach a certain age they go outside, and are always outside in the summer...if the weather is good. I am not saying this is the right way to do things, as I believe there is NO right way, only the way that works best for me. Also I don't know about any other kind of tortoise only the one that I have. 
Pio in his viv. looking for a worm.





When Chewy hears me in the room, she comes out looking for a yummy.


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## Kadaan (Dec 1, 2009)

I just read through the whole 15-page thread on shelled warriors, Why are vivariums and glass tanks bad? (and I see EJ posting a lot in that thread defending vivs .) The common arguments against it are what I listed above:

1. "There's no ventilation and heat gradient, it's like an oven and you're just cooking your tortoise"
2. "They're too small"
3. "The glass stresses the tortoise"

#1 is only a problem if you have a completely enclosed box. Most vivs that house torts have open/screened tops so this isn't an issue.
#2 is utter BS. Just because it's a viv doesn't mean it's too small. A standard 55g aquarium used as a viv has 48x12" of floor space, which is comparable to many of the common plastic tubs (the biggest one I could find at Target was 44"x20", but only 6" high.)
#3 is debatable. If it's too small and there's not a lot of "stuff" in the enclosure to walk/hide in/around then the tort will exhibit the "trying to walk through the glass" behavior. Even in a table though, if it's too small the tort tries to climb the sides (which is the same thing as trying to walk through glass, except they can't see through it.)

All three "anti-viv" arguments are really just anti-small-enclosure arguments. It seems like they just have a bad reputation because of all the people who do zero research on how to care for a tortoise and pick up a 10 or 20 gallon tank for an adult tortoise.


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## terryo (Dec 1, 2009)

Tom on TurtleTails.com only uses planted vivariums and he never covers the sides. He interacts with all his boxies and water turtles (has no tortoises). He considers them pets and has his hatchlings right on his desk where he can see them and they can see him. He also has a water turtle that walks around his house and tells him when he wants to go outside. He has the most beautiful vivariums and all his boxies and water turtles are picture perfect. He also has ponds, and water bogs. His site is amazing, and through the years I have copied many ideas from him.


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## Stephanie Logan (Dec 1, 2009)

Well, Taco did/does have the problem of trying to ram through glass, and she continued to do it even after I put a 4" sight block on the tub side of her enclosure. Little booger would just raise her head WAY up and see over the top to the Promised Land on the far side. Then she would stand up against it and push so hard her little feet left two deep tracks in her substrate. It was pretty funny.

The irony is, vivariums are so attractive to this human owner of a small tortoise, that I'd love to have Taco in one because then I could watch her all the time without having to stand next to her table and look down on her. So, I'm hereby officially complaining that someone needs to teach my tort to love glass walls so I can be happy!


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## terryo (Dec 1, 2009)

Maybe because mine have been in there since they were hatchlings, so they don't know any better.....also, I don't think Pio is the brightest bulb in the box...if you know what I mean...lol


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## Madkins007 (Dec 1, 2009)

I think this is another example of an "all or nothing" argument. Because some things have been abused by unknowing keepers in the past, we reject that element completely- throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

There is nothing automatically evil about aquariums used correctly- that is, with good heating, enough floor space, etc. Or, if you want to put it another way, almost all problems with aquaria would also apply to the same sized tub or box (assuming you covered the glass as needed.)

The same thing applies to:
- Iceberg lettuce, which got a bad rap as part of the old 'lettuce and hamburger diet', but by itself makes a perfectly good bulky filler for light feeding days, or to supplement a more nutritious diet.
- Cabbage, kale, and other brassicas, which if fed in excess can lead to goiter, but are great as part of a better diet.
- 'Belly heat' which got a bad rap because of overly hot heated rocks and older under tank heaters, while the idea of gentle belly heat has lots of benefits.

I am often amazed at what 'no-no's' are based on old mis-uses and abuses- in most parts of life, not just tortoise keeping. I honestly believe that aquaria habitats fall in this category.


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## Tim/Robin (Dec 1, 2009)

Madkins007 said:


> I am often amazed at what 'no-no's' are based on old mis-uses and abuses- in most parts of life, not just tortoise keeping. I honestly believe that aquaria habitats fall in this category.



Bingo!! Agreed. You are a wise man!!


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## terryo (Dec 1, 2009)

(Today 06:27 AM)Madkins007 Wrote: 
I am often amazed at what 'no-no's' are based on old mis-uses and abuses- in most parts of life, not just tortoise keeping. I honestly believe that aquaria habitats fall in this category.

I totally agree Mark.


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## Meg90 (Dec 1, 2009)

On the subject of see through walls....I use frosted tubs. They are semi clear, and I know my torts can partially see out. Only one who has a problem with it is Nigel, and he was WC. I feel terrible for him, when he paces or tries to get out. He wants more space. The girls have never shown any issue with it. And Anouk doesn't even TRY to climb her walls or walk through them. She is such a mellow, sweet girl. She could easily escape, but has not even tried (she's outgrown her second baby bin) I'm just itching for walmart to get the xmas tree bins in. She needs a big girl habitat.


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## stells (Dec 2, 2009)

I would just like to mention that not all of us on these UK forums believe they are all bad...

I always say if set up right they can be a good home.... i do keep all mine on tables but that is my choice and i like floor space provided by a table... we do see alot of vivs over here as you probably do there too that just aren't set up correctly... and i have a couple of rehomers that have come from that kind of enviroment.... that didn't fair to well...


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## Maggie Cummings (Dec 2, 2009)

I have several animals in vivs now and have used them for years. You just have to keep on top of the situation and don't cook a small tortoise or little turtle with too much light or heat....


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## tortoisenerd (Dec 2, 2009)

I think there are some big differences between an aquarium and a suitable vivarium. Yes, it can be done but it isn't as easy to set up as a tort table or plastic tub.


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## terryo (Dec 3, 2009)

tortoisenerd said:


> I think there are some big differences between an aquarium and a suitable vivarium. Yes, it can be done but it isn't as easy to set up as a tort table or plastic tub.



This is true, but once it's set up, there is little or no maintenance. Everyday, I check to see if there is any poop (I like to get it first before he does) and take it out with a paper towel. He rarely bothers the plants because they are close to the sides. All you have to do is mist the plants and change the water. I only change the substrate twice a year.


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## Madkins007 (Dec 3, 2009)

tortoisenerd said:


> I think there are some big differences between an aquarium and a suitable vivarium. Yes, it can be done but it isn't as easy to set up as a tort table or plastic tub.



OK, tubs are cheaper and lighter, and rarely transparent. Only the last item affects the tortoise. Other than that- what are the differences you speak of?


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## stells (Dec 5, 2009)

I think it was the difference between a glass aquarium and a vivarium that was being addressed not the difference between a viv and a table/tub...


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## Yvonne G (Dec 5, 2009)

Madkins007 said:


> OK, tubs are cheaper and lighter, and rarely transparent. Only the last item affects the tortoise. Other than that- what are the differences you speak of?



The plastic tub usually has lower sides, a bigger floor space.


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## alfiethetortoise (Dec 5, 2009)

I feel the need to add that i actually love my vivarium, and if used correctly, they can be a great habitat for a tortoise. Ok so here are my reasons:

(1) Alfie is around 90mm in length. The Vivarium she is in is 2.5 feet long, so in my oppinnion she has plenty of room to roam around, and i get her out every couple of days for a run around the living room
(2) I get a little paranoid about the temps in my vivarium and by watching closely i can maintain temperatures very well (i.e warmer in winter colder in summer)
(3) Despite many people sayint you can't get a heat gradient i would dissagree - i manage to maintain a 70-80 'cooler' end and a 85 plus area for basking. 
(4) They require very little maintience - i check for poo and moisten the soil/sand on a regular basis but i only completely empty about once a month and i'd say even then its pretty clean and could be done less frequently.
(5) I have a lock for my vivarium which keeps little fingers (toddlers) out. But as its all glass on on a small coffee table, she can easily see in.
(6) I find that if i haven't bathed Alfie, or she hasn't been out of the viv in a day or so she will actually come to the front of the glass for a 'look' to see what's going on so it's more interactive
(7) On the 'ventilation' argument - my vivarium has ventilation accross the back, about three inches of holes which i can attatch my UVBstrip. I open the glass doors most evenings to allow some air in, and whenever i open the air seems fresh but a little more moist.
(8) They look GOOD! Ok, maybe that's vain, but my Vivarium fits well in the living room and doesn't make my house look like a pet shop! 

For all those table top enthuisasts, good for you if that works. If you have read up and know what your doing with your tortoise, a vivarium can be a great asset, but if you aquire a tortoise with no real knowledge and place it in a vivarium with similar lack of knowledge then i can only assume you and your tortoise would easily run into difficulty...


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## -EJ (Dec 5, 2009)

I very successfully keep tortoises in 'shoe boxes'. No temperature gradient or 'proper' ventilation.

How much ventilation do you think a tortoise gets in a burrow or burried beneath the leaf litter?

Too much ventilation is not always a good thing. Some of my tortoises are outdoors... tonight it is supposed to hit 22F... do I really want 'proper' ventilation???????

What's the difference? You can obtain the same conditions in an aquarium as you can in a closed viv. In some cases... better ventilation.

You did it again... what is 'suitable'?



tortoisenerd said:


> I think there are some big differences between an aquarium and a suitable vivarium. Yes, it can be done but it isn't as easy to set up as a tort table or plastic tub.


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## terryo (Dec 5, 2009)

Madkins007 Wrote: OK, tubs are cheaper and lighter, and rarely transparent. *Only the last item affects the tortoise.* Other than that- what are the differences you speak of? 

I know a few people who do not cover the sides and front of their viv's because they want their tortoise to be a pet and to interact with them. Also I know breeders of boxies who don't cover any part of the "tank". 

A quote fromTom from TurtleTails:
"A specimen turtle is an animal in a cage on a shelf in a storage room somewhere. A pet turtle is a turtle you live with. A pet turtle you live with has a much more interesting and enjoyable environment. Watching you is part of their entertainment."


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## -EJ (Dec 5, 2009)

Have you ever kept a tortoise in a viv/aquarium????? If they are hatchlings they learn the boundries quickly for the most part... there are some stupid individuals that just don't seem to get it but they (in my experience) are a small minority.

Once they learn the boundries they seem to be entertained by the action that goes on outside the 'tank/viv'

I can't imagine the 'thought' process but there is an obvious interest and I've heard the story time and again coupled with my own experience.

Boxies are at the top of the list for the inquisitive.



terryo said:


> Madkins007 Wrote: OK, tubs are cheaper and lighter, and rarely transparent. *Only the last item affects the tortoise.* Other than that- what are the differences you speak of?
> 
> I know a few people who do not cover the sides and front of their viv's because they want their tortoise to be a pet and to interact with them. Also I know breeders of boxies who don't cover any part of the "tank".
> 
> ...


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## Madkins007 (Dec 5, 2009)

The bits about the torts watching you reminded me of an OLD article in the International Turtle and Tortoise Society Journal about a woman who kept lots of torts and carefully noted observations.

One interesting one was that her torts did better when kept in aquaria at eye level then they did in aquaria at lower levels. Her theory was that having giants hover over them was stressful. That makes a lot of sense to me, and I can see how torts that don't stress over the glass would appreciate it.


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## -EJ (Dec 5, 2009)

I'm gonna cry... some of the best/objective observations I've heard/read... are from people who 'don't have a clue



Madkins007 said:


> The bits about the torts watching you reminded me of an OLD article in the International Turtle and Tortoise Society Journal about a woman who kept lots of torts and carefully noted observations.
> 
> One interesting one was that her torts did better when kept in aquaria at eye level then they did in aquaria at lower levels. Her theory was that having giants hover over them was stressful. That makes a lot of sense to me, and I can see how torts that don't stress over the glass would appreciate it.


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## Stephanie Logan (Dec 5, 2009)

-EJ said:


> .
> 
> You did it again... what is 'suitable'?
> 
> .


[/quote]

According to the dictionary, "suitable: appropriate, fitting, becoming..."


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## -EJ (Dec 5, 2009)

ugh... i didn't bring up suitable.

Again... I raise turtles/tortoises in shoe boxes.



Stephanie Logan said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...



According to the dictionary, "suitable: appropriate, fitting, becoming..."
[/quote]


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## Stephanie Logan (Dec 5, 2009)

-EJ said:


> there are some stupid individuals that just don't seem to get it but they (in my experience) are a small minority.


[/quote]

Thank goodness! That is happy news indeed.



-EJ said:


> Again... I raise turtles/tortoises in shoe boxes.



Yes! But only suitable shoeboxes, I am sure.


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## tortoisenerd (Dec 5, 2009)

When I think aquarium I think very high sides and no ventilation. Vivarium makes me think that it is better equipped for a tortoise--more floor space than vertical height and it likely has the sides blocked off and has plants. Yvonne got what I was trying to say. I mean it is more difficult to set up as in you need to make sure you have proper ventilation, unlike a plastic tub. It may also take more tweaking to get a good temperature gradient unless it is a huge vivarium. You may need to block off the glass sides if it bothers the tort. I don't mean that daily it will take more work, only initially, especially when choosing the proper enclosure (likely the "long" aquarium not the typical one). Some people never put that initial work/thought into it. I think I'd only chose an aquarium for a high humidity tortoise/turtle. Otherwise, the plastic tub or tortoise table is easier and likely cheaper. I don't have anything against them though as long as they are set up well.


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## terryo (Dec 6, 2009)

What is the difference? An aquarium has water in it.....a vivarium has plants in it? They are still all glass tanks. It's how you set them up. Rignt? If you get a big plastic tub ....or.....a big glass tank....and put plants in both of them and put a screen top on them.....what is the difference to your tort? A table top is something very different. Just my HO.


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## chairman (Dec 7, 2009)

I think some of the confusion in our discussion is because there are a ton of plastic bins on the market that are essentially aquariums. Some of them are even "clear" enough for torts to see through. It is entirely possible to choose a bin that is just as "evil" as an aquarium. You just have to pay attention and use a little common sense.

I do agree that tables are among the cheapest/easiest way to go- I think you probably get more floor space for your buck than with any other indoor enclosure type. Even the large plastic bins usually cost more than a 4x8 sheet of plywood unless there's a sale or coupon involved. Especially since most home improvement stores will make all the cuts you need on the sheet gratis, so there's no need to own a saw specifically for the project.

I still prefer vivs though, as I think my torts and I both appreciate the interaction... even if it is only because they are better able to get the attention of the 'food god'. I'm not going to say that vivs are a universal best solution, but they're not automatically bad.


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## tortoisenerd (Dec 7, 2009)

I don't think any plastic tub could ever be as "evil" as the aquarium due to the glass. A glass tank cannot be placed next to a window as it will cook the animal. A glass tub with the same dimensions as a plastic tub will have more difficulty maintaining a temperature gradient (not an issue for a redfoot for example). Not trying to argue, just adding a point to the discussion.


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## -EJ (Dec 8, 2009)

I'm guessing that you've never used an all glass enclosure. With a little thought they are actually easier to maintain humidity and a good temperature gradient.





tortoisenerd said:


> I don't think any plastic tub could ever be as "evil" as the aquarium due to the glass. A glass tank cannot be placed next to a window as it will cook the animal. A glass tub with the same dimensions as a plastic tub will have more difficulty maintaining a temperature gradient (not an issue for a redfoot for example). Not trying to argue, just adding a point to the discussion.


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## Madkins007 (Dec 8, 2009)

Wow! This many pages debating the pros and cons of a plastic or wood box compared to a glass box.

What if we said something like:

"Glass vivaria/aquaria can be a suitable habitat for tortoises as long as it has adequate space, and the proper environment (heat, humidity, etc.) can be maintained for that species. This also applies to plastic tubs, tortoise tables, and other habitats."

Would that be adequate?


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## -EJ (Dec 8, 2009)

It would be adequate but some people of a particular mindset still would not buy into it.



Madkins007 said:


> Wow! This many pages debating the pros and cons of a plastic or wood box compared to a glass box.
> 
> What if we said something like:
> 
> ...


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## chairman (Dec 8, 2009)

If we didn't spend pages discussing different ways to keep healthy torts then all we'd read about here is sick torts, and that wouldn't be any fun at all. And I know that, for myself, one of the reasons I joined up here was to interact with folks who realize that scaly critters can make quality companions too.

Besides, I like to see the pros and cons to various approaches. If I know WHY glass is bad then I have a good foundation for making future decisions that may not involve glass, but could hinge on similar properties. For example, if glass can't be left in the sun because of its heat trapping abilities, is placing a tort table with a black pond liner or black bin near a window also going to cause a heat trapping problem? Maybe it isn't possible, but I would think that you could cook a tort in a bin too. 

I think the more important theme is not to place indoor enclosures near windows? The sunlight would provide inconsistant heating during the summer months and would provide inconsistent cooling during winter. Please someone let me know if my thinking here is wrong... but I would think that indirect sunlight is almost always the best approach for an indoor setup. If other setups can go in windows then given how beneficial real sunlight can be for some species, it is a legitimate strike against vivs.


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## terryo (Dec 8, 2009)

I have Pio's vivarium in the living room. It isn't near a window, but where it is, gets morning sum for about 2 hours. He's in a 75 gal. planted, glass tank. During those two hours ....that's when I mist the plants and have no light on until the sun moves and then I put it on. The heat emitter is always on. It's also when I feed him. For those two hrs. it looks like a steamy green house in there and Pio can be seen sitting with his neck up....basking? I know there is no benefit from that sun, but he really loves it. To be honest, I never checked the temp. to see if it goes up. The humidity level is way up in the tropical section. If it was a smaller tank, I would turn off the heat emitters.


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## Madkins007 (Dec 8, 2009)

chairman said:


> If we didn't spend pages discussing different ways to keep healthy torts then all we'd read about here is sick torts, and that wouldn't be any fun at all. And I know that, for myself, one of the reasons I joined up here was to interact with folks who realize that scaly critters can make quality companions too.



Hey, I'm ALL FOR a good debate. Hang around a bit longer and you'll see that 

What gets me is that we seem to be spinning our wheels rather than advancing the debate.

Right now, I am sitting at work (slow day- heavy snow outside) surrounded by plastic tubs of all sizes. Most of them would be TERRIBLE tortoise tubs- terrible size to floor ratios, smelly plastics, dark interiors, etc. To make a blanket statement that 'any plastic tub is better than any glass tank'* is absolutely foolish because there are so many options.

(*= not that anyone said this as such, but it seems to have been hinted at sometimes.)

Here is a question: If I made a glass tank (aquarium or vivarium or whatever) that had a huge floor space, suitable in size and ratios for tortoises, bottom-hiding turtles, shallow-water fish and invertebates, etc. and used a nice material to block direct sunlight and block sightlines- would it still be objectionable?

I propose that if you find that tank to be 'OK', then your objections are not to glass tanks, but to SMALL habitats- which I think we would all agree should be avoided.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 8, 2009)

Years ago I started out with 50 gallon aquariums for all my turtles and tortoises...mostly rescued then adopted out, but in aquariums, none-the-less.

Then we went through an educational period where we were indoctrinated that aquariums were bad for tortoises, so all of my 50 gallon aquariums went out to the curb on trash pick up day and were smashed into the garbage truck.

Now we've come around again saying that aquariums are ok.

I like to think that I have grown as a tortoise keeper. I no longer tell people not to use aquariums, but rather I try to impart good tortoise-keeping habits and setting up the correct habitat per type of tortoise. If someone can get that in an aquarium, then more power to them.

But, in my case, plastic tubs are way cheaper than aquariums and I much prefer them. But that's because I require so many.


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## brymanda (Dec 11, 2009)

I have a 50 gallon glass semi-aquatic terrarium that sits on my outdoor covered patio (Florida). My torts aren't in it yet since I'm still setting it up and monitoring conditions, but with the heat lamp on one side, I get a 10 degree gradient from one side of the tank to the other. In florida, the hottest it got over the summer (I have a fancy thermometer/humidity inside) was 95. (Without the heat lamp on). Since it's winterish now, I'm still working on getting good winter readings. Humidity inside is generally between 70 and 100% and I can vary it pretty well by exposing or covering pieces of the top. Also, Florida is naturally humid so the outdoor humidity generally stays above 60. I have a ton of plants in there so I'm actually not too worried about air quality. 

That being said, my setup is for a redfoot, which thrives in eactly those conditions. And when they get too big, like many florida redfoot owners, I can build an outdoor enclosure for them. I've thought a lot about how I would keep a mediterranean tort or a desert tort and my problem, being in florida, is I would need to *remove* humidity somehow. In that situation, I think I would again go for a tank, just because it has a smaller air exchange surface, and I would be able to remove humidity more effectively. But, I would also need to consider a size that was appropriate for the maximum size of the tort, since putting them outside wouldn't be appropriate in my climate. 

So, in conclusion  I like having a glass tank because it's durable, pretty, and allows me to control the conditions inside better. But that's just me. And I agree with earlier posts that people who have a fish tank with just some mulch in there are really no different from people who have a plastic tub with just some mulch in there. It's all in how you manage what you have, and whether your environmental conditions are already set up for the kind of tort you have/want. In my case, a large outdoor tub wouldn't have worked as well because of heat issues since baby torts are temperature sensitive. But technically a vivarium is just a "place of life". So any enclosure can be a vivarium  

As per the glass issue:
I have my torts in a temp 10 gallon indoor and they've never had any problems runnning into the glass. In fact, they seem more upset when they're in their playcage and can't get past the bars.

Oh - this is a nice vivarium site/forum for people who are interested. http://www.vivariumforum.com/community/ There are some pretty amazing pictures of what people have done. (caveat: I generally stick to the construction and plants sections, so I don't actually know much about the turtle forum there).


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