# Tortoise Self Harming



## LegoTortoise (Jun 28, 2012)

Please help I don't know how to get my tortoise to stop biting her forelimb, she's ripping scales off! 
She's about two and a half years old and lives with another tortoise of about 5 years of age, we've witnessed aggression between the pair on several occasions but we believe its subsided.
The elder tortoise often opens her mouth in aggression if we pay attention to the younger (she's very territorial) so consequently she doesn't get handled very much but the last few times I've got her out she has been fine for a while then started biting her forelimb and ripping scales off. I don't know if this is just when I pick her up but I think she must be doing it when we're not around as well the amount of scales she's taking off.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can stop her doing this? 
We're already planning to put the other tortoise in hibernation this year so the younger can bulk up a bit more and get a bit more confidence but we're starting to think we might have to separate them if this keeps up :/


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## Yvonne G (Jun 28, 2012)

Hi LegoTortoise:

Welcome to the Tortoise Forum!!

You've left out quite a bit of information. We'll need to know much more if we're to give you any help at all. For instance, what kind of tortoises are we talking about? Where do they live? What are their temperatures all over the habitat? Are they indoors or outside? Are you sure its the tortoise herself and not the other tortoise? During mating, a male will bite the female's front legs to get her to submit. It can get pretty rough.

Sometimes when a tortoise has developed a bad habit, all you need to do to correct the problem is change things around. Especially moving them outside. Living outside does wonders for a tortoise's mental well-being.

*What would you like us to call you?*

...and may we know appx. where in the world you are?


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## Laurie (Jun 28, 2012)

I think you should separate them as soon as possible. Perhaps the aggression you think has subsided, hasn't. Bullying can lead to hiding, not eating, withdrawal and sometimes death. Maybe the smaller tortoise is having anxiety over the bullying and that is leading to the biting. Separate them and see if the behaviour gets any better.


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## LegoTortoise (Jun 28, 2012)

Sorry, as you can tell I'm new to this! They're both Russian Tortoises. Tracy we've had for about 4 years (approx 5 years old) and Shelly (the one biting herself) we've had for a year and a half and is approx 2 years old. They live in an indoor enclosure with a heat lamp and uvb light recommended by Reptile Cymru (we live in Cardiff, Wales). I'm unsure of the temperatures of the habitat, as they're indoors the heat lamp is on during the day from about 8am to 8pm, the habitat has the lamps at one end with the hide at the other cooler end. 
I've witnessed Shelly bite herself and rip the scales off (hence my alarm). Tracy has bitten Shelly in the past but as I said everything seems to have died down now and we don't see it anymore so as far as I'm aware Tracy is innocent for the scales at the moment. 
As to the mating suggestion i'm not convinced as to my knowledge they're both actually male (we named them before knowing this)(but this needs to be confirmed with someone with more knowledge) and surely they'd both be too young yet to mate? 
I could take them outside for a week or two (would need to tortoise proof the garden) but then the weather in wales isn't great for tortoises . . . I've done an ethogram on tortoise behavior for university so I kind of know what to expect but I panic when I see something like this to my own pets :/
What kind of enclosure do you reccomend if I were to move one of them outside? I doubt the weather would be warm enough for them outside really in Wales, we barely reach 15 degrees C (and thats hot for us)!


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## LegoTortoise (Jun 28, 2012)

Oh and my names Abby x


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## Yvonne G (Jun 28, 2012)

Can you tell us the brand and wattage of the UVB light, Abby?


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## ascott (Jun 28, 2012)

> have to separate them



I would do this first off...."self mutilating" can be a sign of many things, not eating enough, frustration, something crawling on the limbs...a variety of things....however, if there are two in one enclosure, you are already working against time---pairs are a hard nut to crack---harmony usually does not reside with a pair....as a result, one will suffer and that can occur and manifest itself in a variety of ways....



> Ethology is a combination of laboratory and field science, with a strong relation to certain other disciplines such as neuroanatomy, ecology, and evolution. Ethologists are typically interested in a behavioral process rather than in a particular animal group, _and often study one type of behavior (e.g. aggression) in a number of unrelated animals._






> An ethogram is a catalogue or inventory of all behaviours or actions exhibited by an animal used in ethology





> I've done an ethogram on tortoise behavior for university _so I kind of know what to expect _but I panic when I see something like this to my own pets :/





> Ethogram= the definition of a behaviour in an ethogram may have arbitrary components. For example, "Stereotyped licking" might be defined as "licking the bars of the cage more than 5 times in 30 seconds". The definition may be arguable, but if it is stated clearly, _it fulfills the requirements of scientific repeatability and clarity of reporting and data recording._



This is just for informational reference  

I always refer back to this simple saying " the shoemaker usually has the crappiest set of shoes"...so, my point being....aggression in one animal is absolutely not apparent the same way in every species---so, unless you are familiar with the interaction between a pair of tortoise (almost any species--and throw into the mix perhaps both males and then throw in the mix a species that is even more prone to aggressive behaviors) and how they can become instant gladiators----or the silent ninja style bully---then all the study you do for the purpose of recording the same action enough times to then be equated to a certain meaning, goes out the window.....

I would venture to bet---if you set up two separate equal enclosures---got actual readings of your temps---set the temps to desired boundaries---added lots of places for hiding---allow a soaking dish---and let each settle into their own spaces---you will find the "self mutilation" will subside....just saying 

And a side note, based solely on my opinion and experience with tortoise, I would not suggest that you brumate your older tort simply to remove him from the scene----there are alot of factors that you will need to take into account to successfully brumate a tortoise---you will want to have all of your feeding, sunning, exercising and hydrating to all be geared towards brumation at the right season---so an entire season of planning is needed to assure a good chance at a successful brumation entry and exit....


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## Jacqui (Jun 29, 2012)

Any way you could show us a photo of their habitat? Do they have "furniture" within their enclosure? Like plants (real or fake), logs, hides, rocks, ect? How large is it? When he is biting himself, what do you do? Your saying he starts this when your working with him, does he stop on his own, do you make him stop, or do you quickly put him back into his enclosure?


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## expo tort (Jun 29, 2012)

Two males together BAD BAD BAD. They must be separated. If one grows it will simply start to bully the other so just letting one grow while the others hibernates will just change the balance of power.


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## Jacqui (Jun 29, 2012)

expo tort said:


> Two males together BAD BAD BAD.



I disagree. While it can be bad, there are also times when it does work out. A lot depends on the individual animals and how they are housed. I myself have kept two male Russians together several times and had no problems, so I know first hand it can work.


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## LegoTortoise (Jun 30, 2012)

Well yes see I agree with Jacqui here, they seem fine and content - even loving some days when they are together its just an odd day that the elder will bully the younger one and this is mostly over food or attention. 
Yvonne - its a 10W ReptileGlo UVB
Typically my camera's broken atm so I can't give you a photo of the enclosure to examine but its basically about 3ft by 2ft with a big wooden hide on one side along with a shallow dish for soaking, the heat lamp is situated at the other end of the enclosure with lots of space underneath for basking and then food is spaced on a feeding plate in the center of the enclosure. 
We did have a revelation yesterday when reading another post mind, we often feed them our own veg from our garden and figured she might have been irritated by something on the plant - consequently we're going to stop giving them this for a while and clean the soaking dish regularly and see if that helps


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## Yvonne G (Jun 30, 2012)

Hi Abby:

It might be the light that is causing the tortoise discomfort. Those bulbs are marketed for reptiles, however, they should not be used for tortoises. Try leaving the light off for a week or so and see if the leg-biting improves.


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## wellington (Jun 30, 2012)

I think you need to get them a bigger enclosure. 2x3 is very small for two Russians. With that little space, there isn't much room for water dish, hides, food dish, let alone decorations. They also should have at least two hides, one for each. And enough room to get away from each other, that's not possible in a 2x3. They like to dig, is there enough proper substrate for them to bury into? If I had to guess at the problem, I would guess STRESS, no way in that size enclosure can they act like a tortoise and be stress free.


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## ascott (Jun 30, 2012)

> the elder will bully the younger one and this is mostly over food or attention.



This is bullying, clear and simple. 



> a big wooden hide
> 
> shallow dish for soaking,
> 
> heat lamp



If this is all that is available for them mixed with the size of the enclosure, then you may want to re-evaluate their needs and supply plants for them to hide under/behind.....if you are going to force them to remain in the same space when there are clear signs showing one is being bullied....tortoise will not be forced to get along simply by forcing them to remain in the same enclosure...and yes, there are exceptions to the pair rule...but those are few and far between and have nothing to do with the enclosure set up---no matter what someone may think, if you have two torts that clearly show signs of discomfort being paired, then it is your responsibility to correct that situation...



> they seem fine and content - even loving some days



This statement seems weird especially with all of the info here in the thread....also, I have never knowns the word "loving" to be in descriptives of tortoise behavior.....that seems like a human emotion put in place for a raw behavior....

I certainly hope your little one does well....but I would strongly suggest you re-evaluate and set up two identical enclosures for each of them....I mean after all, what could be harmed by taking the precaution and seeing what comes of it vs starting a thread asking for input and then rejecting all that are offering you their experience and opinions...? After all, this has nothing to do you with you...we are concerned for the well being of the torts.....have a nice day.


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## LegoTortoise (Jun 30, 2012)

Angela - I hadn't said anything of the sort about not taking your opinion and advice into account so please don't jump to conclusions like that its hardly a good example to set for someone new to your site after all is it? 
Thank you Yvonne we'll switch the light off for a week or two as well


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## ascott (Jun 30, 2012)

> Angela - I hadn't said anything of the sort about _not taking your _opinion and advice into account so please don't jump to conclusions like that





> > I think you should separate them as soon as possible. Perhaps the aggression you think has subsided, hasn't. Bullying can lead to hiding, not eating, withdrawal and sometimes death. Maybe the smaller tortoise is having anxiety over the bullying and that is leading to the biting. Separate them and see if the behaviour gets any better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> _that its hardly a good example to set for someone new to your site after all is it? _



I thought this was a forum to discuss tortoise and turtles, I am not in the business to play nice nice when it comes to ignorance at the expense of the health of an animal....I assumed you are grown right? I figured we were off the playground where everyone has to sugar coat, make nice nice and such???? My apologies for my error..... have a great day


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## Laurie (Jun 30, 2012)

LegoTortoise said:


> Angela - I hadn't said anything of the sort about not taking your opinion and advice into account so please don't jump to conclusions like that its hardly a good example to set for someone new to your site after all is it?
> Thank you Yvonne we'll switch the light off for a week or two as well



Hi Abby, I'm sorry if what Angela has posted upset you, but I agree with her. I'm also sorry if some of the advice you've received isn't what you wanted to hear. When it comes down to it, a 3 x 2 enclosure is too small for one Russian tortoise let alone two of them. One of your animals is clearly stressed from something. The best thing to do in my opinion for your tortoises is separate them. 

One of the reasons I like this forum so much is that just about everyone here can discuss things and express their own opinions without hard feelings. You don't have to accept the opinions you'll find here, you can form your own. Keep in mind there are a lot of people on here with a great deal of experience with tortoises, I would just suggest to keep an open mind and take it all in. 

I also think that it is hardly a good example for someone new to the forum to disregard valuable advice. 

Best of luck to you and your tortoises


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