# Help! My tortoise has a runny nose, is whistling all the time, and is scratching his face!!!!



## Helena F. (Aug 11, 2020)

Hi. I have a 6 year old Russian tortoise named Poseidon. I’ve been staying with my grandma during quarantine on the other side of the country and we safely shipped Poseidon out here about a week ago. He started sniffling and has had snot bubbles. He’s scratching a lot and is eating wayyyyy more than normal. I’m concerned it’s an RI or URTD. My grandma makes me keep him in a terrarium outside on a screened in porch. I have a thermometer and hydrometer and when the humidity gets too high I take him inside. He’s been sleeping with me inside so I can keep an eye on him at night. I thought the whistling would stop in a lower humidity environment that he’s used to, but he whistles all night. Please help. He has a vet appointment coming up but idk what to do until then.


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## nicoleann2214 (Aug 11, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> Hi. I have a 6 year old Russian tortoise named Poseidon. I’ve been staying with my grandma during quarantine on the other side of the country and we safely shipped Poseidon out here about a week ago. He started sniffling and has had snot bubbles. He’s scratching a lot and is eating wayyyyy more than normal. I’m concerned it’s an RI or URTD. My grandma makes me keep him in a terrarium outside on a screened in porch. I have a thermometer and hydrometer and when the humidity gets too high I take him inside. He’s been sleeping with me inside so I can keep an eye on him at night. I thought the whistling would stop in a lower humidity environment that he’s used to, but he whistles all night. Please help. He has a vet appointment coming up but idk what to do until then.


Are you using any heat sources?
And what type of enclosure are you using when he’s “sleeping inside”


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## TechnoCheese (Aug 11, 2020)

Can we see pictures of your tortoise and enclosure?

What are your enclosure temps? Basking, cool side, and night.

What are you using to measure these temps?


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## Minority2 (Aug 11, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> Hi. I have a 6 year old Russian tortoise named Poseidon. I’ve been staying with my grandma during quarantine on the other side of the country and we safely shipped Poseidon out here about a week ago. He started sniffling and has had snot bubbles. He’s scratching a lot and is eating wayyyyy more than normal. I’m concerned it’s an RI or URTD. My grandma makes me keep him in a terrarium outside on a screened in porch. I have a thermometer and hydrometer and when the humidity gets too high I take him inside. He’s been sleeping with me inside so I can keep an eye on him at night. I thought the whistling would stop in a lower humidity environment that he’s used to, but he whistles all night. Please help. He has a vet appointment coming up but idk what to do until then.



Humidity levels are never going to be an issue for tortoises. Burrowing tortoises such as the Russian tortoises freely pee and poop inside their burrows until the humidity level is well above 80% in nature. There is no downside in keeping humidity relatively high for even adult tortoises well after they've reached their max growth rates.

High humidity levels are only dangerous to a tortoise if your temperature are far too low. If daytime temperatures are well above 80F, basking temperature is around 100F, and nighttime temperature stays above 60F (keep nighttime temperatures at 80F if the tortoise seems sick) then the adult tortoise should be fine. 

Please show us a picture of your current setup.
1. Including the bulbs you're using. Links would be a plus.
2. What type of substrate.
3. Specific temperature zones you're working with along with the humidity levels during the day and night.
4. What do you mean sleeping with you inside at night? Do you mean you bring the terrarium inside or?


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## Tom (Aug 11, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> Hi. I have a 6 year old Russian tortoise named Poseidon. I’ve been staying with my grandma during quarantine on the other side of the country and we safely shipped Poseidon out here about a week ago. He started sniffling and has had snot bubbles. He’s scratching a lot and is eating wayyyyy more than normal. I’m concerned it’s an RI or URTD. My grandma makes me keep him in a terrarium outside on a screened in porch. I have a thermometer and hydrometer and when the humidity gets too high I take him inside. He’s been sleeping with me inside so I can keep an eye on him at night. I thought the whistling would stop in a lower humidity environment that he’s used to, but he whistles all night. Please help. He has a vet appointment coming up but idk what to do until then.


Where is the tortoise now? And where did it live prior? Your location says S.F., but I don't know if that is where he came from, or where you shipped him to last week.

You need to get him off the porch and bring him inside to a correct and stable environment, or he will likely die.


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## Helena F. (Aug 13, 2020)

Tom said:


> Where is the tortoise now? And where did it live prior? Your location says S.F., but I don't know if that is where he came from, or where you shipped him to last week.
> 
> You need to get him off the porch and bring him inside to a correct and stable environment, or he will likely die.


 I took him to the vet yesterday and the exotic vet said he needs to be inside. He was shipped from San Francisco to Virginia. The vet also told me to add Mazuri tortoise diet as well as his leafy greens. A tiny part of his shell chipped but I was told it’s part of the humidity, but the vet said it’ll grow back. His shell isn’t warped or pyramiding. His whistling and bubbles are caused by humidity. I ordered digital thermometer, heat mat Thermostat, a new uvb light and basking stone, and a better hydrometer and thermometer. We moved him inside and I’ll show pics. He’s temporarily staying in a kiddie pool in my grandmas bath tub that doesn’t work. We’re staying at her house temporarily and she won’t let me get a real tank because she doesn’t want anything touching her furniture.


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## Helena F. (Aug 13, 2020)

Substrate: reptibark
Heating: 75w basking lamp with uva, tank heater underneath
Weight: 15 oz

all of his other stuff was left back in SF so I just ordered a uvb light and clip lamp, heat mat thermostat, digital infrared thermometer, in tank thermometer and hydrometer, cuttlebone, and mazuri tortoise dry diet that the vet told me to add to his leafy greens. The bathroom stays in the 70’s while the humidity is 40-50 %
His whistling and bubbles stopped. He’s only allowed outside max 1 hour per day with supervision


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## Minority2 (Aug 13, 2020)

Minority2 said:


> Humidity levels are never going to be an issue for tortoises.



This is an incorrect typo. What I meant to say was that high humidity levels *combined *with warmer temperatures (70-80F) is not going to be an issue for tortoises. People may probably be able to tell by the additional info provided in that post, however, just to be sure that someone isn't going to come on this site and misuse a quote of mine I'm gonna formally address it using part of this post.



Helena F. said:


> I took him to the vet yesterday and the exotic vet said he needs to be inside. He was shipped from San Francisco to Virginia. The vet also told me to add Mazuri tortoise diet as well as his leafy greens. A tiny part of his shell chipped but I was told it’s part of the humidity, but the vet said it’ll grow back. His shell isn’t warped or pyramiding. His whistling and bubbles are caused by humidity. I ordered digital thermometer, heat mat Thermostat, a new uvb light and basking stone, and a better hydrometer and thermometer. We moved him inside and I’ll show pics. He’s temporarily staying in a kiddie pool in my grandmas bath tub that doesn’t work. We’re staying at her house temporarily and she won’t let me get a real tank because she doesn’t want anything touching her furniture.



His whistling and bubbles is not specifically caused by humidity. I've written above that high humidity levels only become dangerous if day or nighttime temperatures are far too low for far too long, which is more likely the case. 

I understand you're in a situation where you're more limited than others as to how much space/area you can use to house your tortoise. 

Do know that a single Adult Russian needs at least their own 8ft x 4ft enclosure in order to live actively and peacefully. How long does your family plan to stay in Virginia if you don't mind me asking? How much space and amount of money are you able to spend in order to make your tortoise live a little better than it is currently is now? Not purposely trying to get too personally, just want to help clear that gap between making something impossible seem more possible by giving you different and honest options depending on your answer. 



Helena F. said:


> Substrate: reptibark
> Heating: 75w basking lamp with uva, tank heater underneath
> Weight: 15 oz
> 
> ...



Do not use the clamp/clip. It will eventually fall. Those clamps have been responsible for killing a good number of tortoises. Plenty of evidence can be found in this forum if searched with the correct key words.

Try to keep your tortoise's entire enclosure above 80F for the next week or two to make sure that the whistling and bubbles are completely gone for good. Better safe than sorry when it comes to a possible respiratory infection.

If you're regularly taking your tortoise outside for some supervised sun you don't necessarily need to have a uv(B) lighting fixture. That'll be a whole different story during the wintertime so it's up to you to know whether or not you'll need such a fixture depending on how long you're going to stay in Virginia. 

If your heat mat is specifically a reptile heat panel, make sure it does not ever touch your tortoise's skin. It will burn them. 

I suggest purchasing a separate basking bulb (cheap found in hardware stores - incandescent flood style light bulb) and a uv(B) tubular style bulb and fixture (T5 fixture and reptile rated uv(B) bulb) instead of a 2 in one product like a mercury vapor bulb. Mercury vapor bulbs in general do more harm to tortoises than good. If you want a better explanation I can do so but I just wanna move and try to keep this reply as short as I can. The short answer is that this separate setup is going to last longer, reach farther, and be more energy efficient (lower electricity cost) than a single mercury vapor bulb can reasonably provide. 

Most updated guide on Russian tortoise care. Read it and follow the instructions:





The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise


I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...




tortoiseforum.org


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## Helena F. (Aug 13, 2020)

We are not sure how long we’ll be here. I have plenty of money saved up so I have no problem with expenses. What lamp / stand do u recommend. Please let me know what I can do to improve his habitat and health. Nothing is off limits. Also how should I raise the temp in the bathroom?


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## Minority2 (Aug 13, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> We are not sure how long we’ll be here. I have plenty of money saved up so I have no problem with expenses. What lamp / stand do u recommend. Please let me know what I can do to improve his habitat and health. Nothing is off limits. Also how should I raise the temp in the bathroom?



Okay you said it. 

There's several options to make a suitable tortoise enclosure provided that your grandmother is okay with having something like a 8ft x 4ft piece of furniture somewhere inside or outside her home.

You can:
1. You can build an outdoor enclosure along with a night time heating box similar to the one linked in the guide I posted in one of my previous posts. 
2. You can build an indoor closed chamber style enclosure out of lumber. You can make any of the two into a family project.
3. You can purchase a custom pre-made enclosure from either https://apcages.com/ or @Markw84 but the turn around time could take a number of months before the either the product is able to be completed and or shipped to your location. 

This is what I would usually recommend for a general heat and uv(B) setup. I'm only using two feet as a general standard. Depending on the enclosure size and lighting configuration you can go as high as 3-4 feet in lighting fixtures. 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0721TG86M/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20 Arcadia has complete T5 fixture and bulb kit which is also a very good alternative. I'm still not convinced that it's the top overall choice yet unless more comparisons are shown. 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PNK42W8/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001BM5YZW/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002CZ1E4M/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20
Optional equipment depending on how cool temperatures get during night time.
https://www.reptilebasics.com/rbi-radiant-heat-panels or https://www.reptilebasics.com/60watt-heat-emitter (will need additional lamp fixture and possibly a protective cage to prevent the tortoise from touching the emitter if it accidentally falls into the enclosure.

To raise the overall temperature in your enclosure all you need to do is make a top lid for it. Something as simple as a cardboard top covering the pool with cutouts to allow your light fixtures to heat and shine through is going to help stabilize your temperature and humidity levels far better than if you would've kept the enclosure completely open and exposed.


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## Helena F. (Aug 14, 2020)

We don’t have the space for an 8ft x 4 ft enclosure. Being at my grandma’s is temporary, so for now he has to stay in the kiddie pool which is 2ft x 2ft ( I know, it’s super small ). His terrarium is 80 degrees while his hotspot is 90 - 100. The humidity is 40 - 50 percent. He gets bathed several times a week ( almost every day ) with lukewarm water. His bubbles are gone but his whistling is still there sometimes. Until his tortoise diet comes, he’s eating his leafy greens with fresh non toxic weeds ( no chemicals at all ) and has his calcium dust and multivitamins 2x per week. He gets one hour of supervised exercise outside a day, and overall is doing a much better. I wanted to know what you guys thought of his shell and if anything is wrong, besides the chipping due to humidity.

in his permanent enclosure when we leave I will 100% get a 8ft x 4ft.


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## Minority2 (Aug 14, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> We don’t have the space for an 8ft x 4 ft enclosure. Being at my grandma’s is temporary, so for now he has to stay in the kiddie pool which is 2ft x 2ft ( I know, it’s super small ). His terrarium is 80 degrees while his hotspot is 90 - 100. The humidity is 40 - 50 percent. He gets bathed several times a week ( almost every day ) with lukewarm water. His bubbles are gone but his whistling is still there sometimes. Until his tortoise diet comes, he’s eating his leafy greens with fresh non toxic weeds ( no chemicals at all ) and has his calcium dust and multivitamins 2x per week. He gets one hour of supervised exercise outside a day, and overall is doing a much better. I wanted to know what you guys thought of his shell and if anything is wrong, besides the chipping due to humidity.
> 
> in his permanent enclosure when we leave I will 100% get a 8ft x 4ft.



Are you not allowed to buy something larger like a stock tank and keep that outside? 

Humidity levels should stay well above 60% even for adult Russians. 80%100% humidity levels, while not required for adult Russians is beneficial as it helps keep their carapace from fully drying out from various heat sources in a captive environment. Russian hatchlings started under a 100/80/80 setting which is 100 basking temp/80 cool side temp/80% humidity level are generally going to stay healthy.

Healthy, well hydrated shells glisten and look rather pristine. They don't look chipped, at least not from captive bred specimens. Can you show more pictures of your tortoise so others can members can get a better idea of what's causing the chipping?


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## Helena F. (Aug 14, 2020)

I don’t think so. I’ll talk with my grandma but she doesn’t understand anything about reptiles. She is only concerned about her furniture, not his health. The exotic vet said to keep him inside because the humidity is too high for him. He also said to keep him in 40 - 50 % humidity. I upped it to about 50 - 60 % and he’s doing even better. His energy is back. Vet said chipping is caused by too high humidity outside. His chips are slowly growing back. I’ll send pics in a little bit. Other than that he has no other problems. It takes some trial and error but I’m doing everything I can to do things right and correct my mistakes as well as provide him with the best life possible


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## Helena F. (Aug 14, 2020)

I mean, she’s been very gracious to let him be here, but it’s frustrating because he needs to be healthy

speaking of healthy please let me know about his shell. Here are some pics and let me know what I can do to improve. His shell seems kind of dry looking, but it feels smooth and I bathe him almost every day. It makes me anxious though because his shell doesn’t seem right up close. What can I do to fix it ? I heard u can use olive oil or vita shell? What do u guys recommend?


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## Minority2 (Aug 14, 2020)

Can you hold the tortoise up and take a picture of the top (carapace) and the bottom (plastron) of the tortoise? I personally cannot tell how pronounced the damage is when the basking lamp is interfering with the natural color of the shell. 

I do see some visible damage of flaking going straight to the bone. This to me seems more like the cause of new or old injuries and general dryness than shell rot to me because shell rot usually starts from the plastron (bottom shell) and is commonly caused by the tortoise sitting on a very wet substance for long periods at a time. Shell rot in itself is not too serious if treated and is not caused by humidity as I said numerously times before. 

If it is indeed shell rot what you do is:

1. Scrub the affected areas with peroxide.
2. Rinse with water and dry off tortoise with a clean towel. 
3. Apply a thin layer of anti-fungal cream in the affected areas.
4. Continue this treatment for at least a week in order to see improvement which is the light whitish cloudy parts slowly disappearing from the shell. 

I still think that carapace is really dry.


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## Helena F. (Aug 14, 2020)

Those little chips are definitely new. And his shell seems really dry even though I bathe him all the time. I was told the chipping is from humidity by the vet and that it’ll grow back. The vet also said there was no shell rot. Sorry if the pics aren’t clear. He keeps wiggling. What can I do to make his shell and him healthy again? He hasn’t been with me for 5 months because of staying at my grandmas and corona. He didn’t have vitamins or calcium, prob not even the right diet, for 5 months.


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## Helena F. (Aug 14, 2020)

I’m thinking of changing his substrate back to eco earth. Also can I put a little bit of olive oil on his shell? Or mineral oil? I read here on the forum it can help dryness


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## Minority2 (Aug 14, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> Those little chips are definitely new. And his shell seems really dry even though I bathe him all the time. I was told the chipping is from humidity by the vet and that it’ll grow back. The vet also said there was no shell rot. Sorry if the pics aren’t clear. He keeps wiggling. What can I do to make his shell and him healthy again? He hasn’t been with me for 5 months because of staying at my grandmas and corona. He didn’t have vitamins or calcium, prob not even the right diet, for 5 months.



I don't know how the tortoise got injured but that looks like damage and dryness to me. The white bone parts will regrow in time.

Keep your light fixtures as high as it can go while also being in the correct temperature. Have it pointed downwards and not at an angle. I don't know if you're using one of those reptile double reflector basking bulbs or a regular incandescent flood bulb. My guess is that the bulb is likely contributing to the tortoise's dryness. That enclosure is so small that your tortoise has nowhere to go to move away from that single heating source.

Soak your tortoise daily for 20-30 minutes. If you don't have a uv(B) source at hand the tortoise needs to go outside and have contact with the sun at least 2-3 times a week, the more the better. 

Does the shell feel weak? As in vulnerable like a newborn baby, like you if you press it hard enough it might lump?



Helena F. said:


> I’m thinking of changing his substrate back to eco earth. Also can I put a little bit of olive oil on his shell? Or mineral oil? I read here on the forum it can help dryness



The substrate is too low for one. An adult Russian requires a deep substrate to submerge themselves into. Try to achieve at least 4 inches deep. 6 inches or more would be better. I'm surprised I missed this. No wonder humidity levels are so low. This type of information should already be covered in one of this guide linked in this thread.

There's no space there to allow your tortoise to thermoregulate between different temperature zones because it's either basking hot or the cold side in that little pool and there isn't enough substrate for the tortoise to burrow into to escape the heat with.

I don't use olive oil or anything like that so I personally can't comment on how effective it can be. I don't think such a product would be necessary if changes were made.


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## Helena F. (Aug 14, 2020)

Ok great. Thank u so much. UVB lights are on the way. Giving him daily soaks. I’m going to clean the chipped part with water and add neosporin to the chipped parts and bandage it. Tomorrow first thing I’m going to get better substrate. I’m also looking for a bigger enclosure. I’ll keep updating on him and will continue to ask questions. Please let me know what else I can do and any articles or care guides I could read.


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## Minority2 (Aug 14, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> Ok great. Thank u so much. UVB lights are on the way. Giving him daily soaks. I’m going to clean the chipped part with water and add neosporin to the chipped parts and bandage it. Tomorrow first thing I’m going to get better substrate. I’m also looking for a bigger enclosure. I’ll keep updating on him and will continue to ask questions. Please let me know what else I can do and any articles or care guides I could read.



Your tortoise is likely fine now if the runny nose is gone. The best substrate is either orchid/fir bark and or coco coir, not any reptile pet branded mixture. Make sure to pour a jug of water over the substrate daily if needed to keep humidity levels up. 100% humidity with damp but not wet substrate is not going to harm your tortoise. I don't care what the exotic veteranarian you saw told you it's safe.

Pet branded mixtures are fine but sometimes you can find metal pieces, plastic pieces, and even mites in there because some companies don't clean it properly before shipping. Best thing to do is to put the substrate you're planning to use in a 5lb bucket and pour boiling water over it to kill any possible leftover mites.


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## newCH (Aug 14, 2020)

Maybe in a pinch while he is in the baby bath tub in the tub, is that you can put him on a warm hot water bottle, with a barrier in between, maybe like a towel. 
Might make him more cozy and bring his temps up a bit.


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## Minority2 (Aug 14, 2020)

newCH said:


> Maybe in a pinch while he is in the baby bath tub in the tub, is that you can put him on a warm hot water bottle, with a barrier in between, maybe like a towel.
> Might make him more cozy and bring his temps up a bit.



What? Are you taking about soaking methods? Because for soaking all you need to do is get a 12 inch dish tub, fill it with warm water, just slightly above or lower than the lip that separates the plastron from the carapace. That way the tortoise never has to force themselves to raise their neck above the water line. Keep them in the tub for 20-30 minutes. Replace the water with more warm water if needed. After the soak you tower dry the tortoise, making sure to gently wipe around sensitive areas and they'll be fine for the day. 

If you want to make the tortoise cozy just make sure to get more substrate. That's like the blanket/poncho they use to keep warm at night and cool during the day.

You also need a hide for shade. I just noticed there wasn't a single hide in that little pool enclosure. That's also included in the guide.


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## Helena F. (Aug 15, 2020)

I use a reptile basking bulb. What about his dryness? Continue to give more moisture? I’m going to get him a hide do that’ll help. I’m bathing him every day like u said


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## Helena F. (Aug 15, 2020)

Also what about basking temperatures and cool sides. I read that basking temps should be 90-95 degrees Fahrenheit while cool should be about 70. Is this true? I’m also providing a moist hide. Lastly should I keep his heat mat all day and night? I have a heat mat thermostat so I can control it but I would like to know what temperatures should be


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## Minority2 (Aug 15, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> I use a reptile basking bulb. What about his dryness? Continue to give more moisture? I’m going to get him a hide do that’ll help. I’m bathing him every day like u said



Replace that reptile basking bulb with a regular non-pet branded incandescent flood styled bulb. Incandescent flood bulbs provide a wider, less concentrated heat source unlike reptile basking bulbs which run much hotter because of it's double reflector design and project much narrower, concentrated heat which dries out a tortoise much faster than an incandescent flood bulb would. Yes always provide shade options in any indoor and or outdoor enclosure.



Helena F. said:


> Also what about basking temperatures and cool sides. I read that basking temps should be 90-95 degrees Fahrenheit while cool should be about 70. Is this true? I’m also providing a moist hide. Lastly should I keep his heat mat all day and night? I have a heat mat thermostat so I can control it but I would like to know what temperatures should be



Basking temperature which is the temperature of a basking area (lamp fixture facing directly downwards) usually measured by where the middle of the light/heat source meets the substrate. That temperature needs to be either 95-105F for Russian tortoises.

Ambient temperature usually refers to the middle of the enclosure but also can refer to the entire enclosure depending on the context. That temperature should be around 80F.

Hot side is the side near where you basking fixture is positioned. That's the area where you're getting higher than ambient temperatures, which is about 85-90F.

Cool side temperature is located on the opposite side of the hot side. For Russian tortoises there may not be a need for a night heating source so that side stays relatively cooler during the day. It should be above room temperature if it's a closed chamber enclosure or near room temperature for open enclosures. During the day it can be around 70F-90F depending on what the temperature is in the room. Nighttime it should stay above 60F. If it routinely dips lower than 60F you should install an additional night time heating source to raise it above that. This should answer your heat mat question. 

I don't believe a moist hide is required. At least not if you're planning on putting something like moss or something like that. I wouldn't do something like that. Just pour water on top of their hides if you're really concerned. The tortoise knows when he or she needs to generate more humidity while sleeping in their burrows. Just make sure to raise that substrate level to at least a minimum of 4 inches as soon as possible.


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## Helena F. (Aug 17, 2020)

So its been a week since we moved him inside. I've changed his diet, temperature, lighting, heat, hot spots, cold spots, and everything you can think of ( besides substrate, cause we need to get that this weekend.) It started (if u weren't here before) with the vet saying it was the humidity from being outside causing his whistling and a little bit of snot bubbles. After a week of changing what the exotic vet said and what you all said, he is doing worse. He is whistling more, his snot bubbles are a lot more, he's clicking, rubbing his face all the time, hasn't had water or eaten in a couple of days ( that may be nothing idk ) except a few bites today. He's always hiding in his hide (even though his temps are correct) , is sleeping/ laying in the same spot all day, and isn't active. I took him outside this afternoon for some fresh air and he didn't run around like he usually does. He just dragged himself along the grass/porch. He walked a total of 4 human steps and just laid down. I brought him inside and he just collapsed. He was alive and breathing, but his limbs were all spread out like i've never seen. He didn't move for a long time and I actually thought he was dead for a minute. I touched his arm several times and he finally flinched his arm and blinked but that was it. I could tell he was struggling for breath. I usually hear a clear, constant breath, but he'll click and whistle, and then stop breathing all together, then take a huge breath. I called the vet and he wasn't there so i was told he will most likely return my call tomorrow, but im afraid its a RI or something even worse. What should I keep an eye on and/or do? Also what do you think it is. Sorry,super long but i've never seen this in him before. Idk if its because he's still not used to the humidity, ( which makes no sense since he's inside and in a controlled environment) or if its something else and is serious. Please let me know ASAP.


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## Minority2 (Aug 17, 2020)

What exactly did you change? Please name them specifically.

From the exotic vet:

From me:

Because if the bubbles are back it sounds the temperature in your enclosure is still getting too low which can cause infections when paired with wet substrate because your current substrate level is too low.

I also said to keep the entire enclosure above 80F day and night for a week or after until the bubbles stay gone. Did you do that? Maybe you continue doing that because it sounds like it's likely still too cold for the tortoise. 

The dragging of the leg can mean several things. For example, poor diet of the same food types that contain goitrogens can cause gout like pain which causes tortoises legs to act like that. I can't say for certain if it is that reason because again, I have no idea what you've changed. 

Your statement about your tortoise being inside a controlled environment is not true if you're still using an open faced kiddie pool. I've already listed many of the reasons why heat and humidity can escape such a enclosure. And I also questioned how stable the temperatures were at night which I don't think you've replied to and or fixed said issues with day and night time heating.

Struggling to breathe, sounding like a whistle and or click does indicate a good possiblity of having an infection. You should go see the vet for that. The cause is likely *wetness combined with cold temperatures*.


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## Helena F. (Aug 17, 2020)

Yes he is still in an open faced kiddie pool. Right now there is nothing I can do about that. I have changed his diet and added more weeds and leafy greens, even less treats, and Mazuri tortoise diet food. He has always had a healthy appetite and a healthy diet. I do not believe this is the problem though.

The whole room stays above 80 degrees at all times, with hotspots of 90-100, and cool spots of low 80's. It is always warm and I check the temps every hour almost. It is never cold and wet. Humidity is usually between 50 and 60 percent, lowest is in the 40's. I know all of this because I have a humidity gauge, thermometer, infrared digital thermometer, and a heat mat thermostat. He has his UVB and heating lamp a foot away. I'm giving him baths and exercise daily but still nothing is right. I always make sure the water is the correct temp and that he is dry after his baths. He not only has his lamp and uvb, but as well as a window with pure sunlight, giving it off even more heat. ( no, the humidity doesn't change due to the window. It was built not to open.) It always stays above the 80's, but always below the 100's. 

Something is seriously not right, and i'm not sure what it is. I'm doing everything I am supposed to and everything I can, but it's getting worse.


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## Minority2 (Aug 17, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> Yes he is still in an open faced kiddie pool. Right now there is nothing I can do about that. I have changed his diet and added more weeds and leafy greens, even less treats, and Mazuri tortoise diet food. He has always had a healthy appetite and a healthy diet. I do not believe this is the problem though.
> 
> The whole room stays above 80 degrees at all times, with hotspots of 90-100, and cool spots of low 80's. It is always warm and I check the temps every hour almost. It is never cold and wet. Humidity is usually between 50 and 60 percent, lowest is in the 40's. I know all of this because I have a humidity gauge, thermometer, infrared digital thermometer, and a heat mat thermostat. He has his UVB and heating lamp a foot away. I'm giving him baths and exercise daily but still nothing is right. I always make sure the water is the correct temp and that he is dry after his baths. He not only has his lamp and uvb, but as well as a window with pure sunlight, giving it off even more heat. ( no, the humidity doesn't change due to the window. It was built not to open.) It always stays above the 80's, but always below the 100's.
> 
> Something is seriously not right, and i'm not sure what it is. I'm doing everything I am supposed to and everything I can, but it's getting worse.



What do you mean by threats? Sugary foods?

The whole room's temperature doesn't matter. That's not how you measure temperature and humidity levels for your indoor enclosure. You measure the substrate, the very thing your tortoise touches. 
1. Is your substrate wet? Is the bottom below that wet or dry?
2. What is the temperature directly under the basking fixture at the substrate level.
3. What is the humidity level on the hot side substrate and the cool side substrate?
4. How are you keeping the temperatures *inside *of the enclosure above 80F at night? Are you measuring the hot and cold side substrate? 
5. What humidity and temperature gauge are you using? The tiny cheap non-digital pet branded ones are quite inaccurate. A digital one such as this one on the other hand, has a accuracy rating +1/-1% which is what members generally recommend buying and using instead. 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075QBRR6S/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20
6. Are the light/heating fixtures controlled by a digital timer?

If you are only using the heat mat at night in an open enclosure that's not going to keep the heat in. Heat rises. Even when paired with a temperature controller the heat mat will not be able to keep an open enclosure's temperature stable.


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## Helena F. (Aug 18, 2020)

im measuring all of it. substrate, air temp, heating mats. I'm doing all of the right things. I meant to say treats, not threats. I was talking about his diet. I'm trying to explain that i'm doing everything I can and I want to know what others think this issue is. I'm concerned and he is in a great environment and is well taken care of, but he's sick, and idk what is going on. I was asking if anyone knows or thinks they know what these symptoms mean, (example: Respiratory infection)


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## Toddrickfl1 (Aug 18, 2020)

At this point I'd advise seeing a different Vet. If your unable to get him to a Vet, unfortunately, I don't think your going to have a happy conclusion to this thread.


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## KronksMom (Aug 18, 2020)

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I can tell how much you care about him. Sometimes once an infection begins, antibiotics are necessary. His body may just not be strong enough to fight it off on its own, even if you are doing all the right things to help. @zovick


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## zovick (Aug 18, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> im measuring all of it. substrate, air temp, heating mats. I'm doing all of the right things. I meant to say treats, not threats. I was talking about his diet. I'm trying to explain that i'm doing everything I can and I want to know what others think this issue is. I'm concerned and he is in a great environment and is well taken care of, but he's sick, and idk what is going on. I was asking if anyone knows or thinks they know what these symptoms mean, (example: Respiratory infection)


The tortoise does have a respiratory infection, given all the symptoms you have mentioned here. It does need to have some antibiotics to help it fight this off. The best one is ceftazidime (Fortaz). The injections need to be given every three days for milder infections and every other day for more serious ones. I would given your tortoise injections of ceftazidime every other day for 8 days, then go to every third day for another three doses. You will most likely need to have the vet do the injections or at least do the first one and then give you syringes of the medication to take home with you for the other doses. The medication needs to be refrigerated because it deteriorates over time once it has been reconstituted (mixed). The correct dosage for tortoises is 20 to 40 mg per kilo of body weight, so I would stay in the mid-point of the range and give your tortoise 30 mg per kilo of its weight.

Be sure to keep the tortoise warm and well hydrated (soak daily for 20-30 minutes) while it is on the medication because it is excreted by the kidneys.

Good luck.


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## Helena F. (Aug 18, 2020)

KronksMom said:


> I'm so sorry you're going through this. I can tell how much you care about him. Sometimes once an infection begins, antibiotics are necessary. His body may just not be strong enough to fight it off on its own, even if you are doing all the right things to help. @zovick


 Thank you so much for that message. I really needed to hear that. I am trying my best and am taking all of this advice very seriously. I love him with all my heart and just want him to be happy and healthy.


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## Helena F. (Aug 18, 2020)

zovick said:


> The tortoise does have a respiratory infection, given all the symptoms you have mentioned here. It does need to have some antibiotics to help it fight this off. The best one is ceftazidime (Fortaz). The injections need to be given every three days for milder infections and every other day for more serious ones. I would given your tortoise injections of ceftazidime every other day for 8 days, then go to every third day for another three doses. You will most likely need to have the vet do the injections or at least do the first one and then give you syringes of the medication to take home with you for the other doses. The medication needs to be refrigerated because it deteriorates over time once it has been reconstituted (mixed). The correct dosage for tortoises is 20 to 40 mg per kilo of body weight, so I would stay in the mid-point of the range and give your tortoise 30 mg per kilo of its weight.
> 
> Be sure to keep the tortoise warm and well hydrated (soak daily for 20-30 minutes) while it is on the medication because it is excreted by the kidneys.
> 
> Good luck.


Thank you so much for explaining the medication to me. I'm with my grandmother so this new vet im seeing isn't the best but is the only exotic vet in this whole county. This vet hasn't really explained much to me, just saying all of it was because of the humidity outside. I will definitely bring up ceftazidime (Fortaz) and talk to him about dosages. My tortoise doesn't whistle or click every single breath, but its becoming more and more frequent. Thank you. All of your guy's wisdom has really helped me grow as a tortoise owner, as well as keeping him safe and getting the right treatment for him. Don't know what I would do without this forum!!!


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## Helena F. (Aug 18, 2020)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> At this point I'd advise seeing a different Vet. If your unable to get him to a Vet, unfortunately, I don't think your going to have a happy conclusion to this thread.


Thank you for the honesty. I really appreciate it. I'm looking for a new exotic vet in this area, but im afraid this vet is the only exotic vet around. I'm not going to give up. I'd do anything for my little guy and he is a big part of my life. I'll continue to search.


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## Toddrickfl1 (Aug 18, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> Thank you for the honesty. I really appreciate it. I'm looking for a new exotic vet in this area, but im afraid this vet is the only exotic vet around. I'm not going to give up. I'd do anything for my little guy and he is a big part of my life. I'll continue to search.


If anything I'd ask the Vet you saw about the medication @zovick mentioned and if he can administer it asap.


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## Minority2 (Aug 18, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> im measuring all of it. substrate, air temp, heating mats. I'm doing all of the right things. I meant to say treats, not threats. I was talking about his diet. I'm trying to explain that i'm doing everything I can and I want to know what others think this issue is. I'm concerned and he is in a great environment and is well taken care of, but he's sick, and idk what is going on. I was asking if anyone knows or thinks they know what these symptoms mean, (example: Respiratory infection)



I accidentally wrote threats instead of treats in the last post. What specific treats are you feeding it? 

You haven't answered any of the questions I've given you. I need specific numbers for different daytime and night temperature zones as I've supplied you with in my previous posts. I need humidity levels, again, daytime and nighttime to get a better idea of what the climate is and what it could possibly feel like for the tortoise that's inside the kiddie pool/open enclosure. You saying the tortoise is in a great environment without telling me exactly what you've changed in the last couple days since I've written to you makes it more confusing because members aren't getting up to date and or accurate information needed in order to give you the safest avenue of "suggested" care. 

Respiratory infection usually goes away when the temperatures in the enclosure, bumped up, and kept to the specified temperatures I wrote in one of my previous posts. And yes the tortoise can possibly get worse even if the temperatures are correct, however, that can also mean there may be different things that are happening which is causing the tortoise to not be able to shed off that infection. Something may possibly be preventing the tortoise from recovering from the last time it started forming bubbles. 

Your enclosure issues, if still left uncorrected, will not go away even if the tortoise were to go to receive antibiotics. For example, if temperatures remain too low for your tortoise it's going to possibly get much worse for them. This is why members like myself are constantly asking about temperature, humidity numbers, and how important it is to buy and use accurate equipment to check them. 

If the tortoise actually receives any injections you'll going to need to provide an even slightly warmer environment; 85F daytime and nighttime heat throughout the enclosure along with a 100F basking spot 12-14 hours for them in order to help aid in their recovery. The negative side affects (examples: inactivity, loss of appetite) of some vet treatments such as antibiotics injections can last for months at a time. That means your enclosure or separate quarantine enclosure needs to absolutely be kept in the right temperature levels at all time.


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## Helena F. (Aug 18, 2020)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> If anything I'd ask the Vet you saw about the medication @zovick mentioned and if he can administer it asap.


I actually just got off the phone with the vet. He was supposed to call me this morning but never did. I called them just now and was told he wasn't going to see me tomorrow like he was supposed to, and may not even come in until the next day. I was referred to another vet, who referred me to another vet, and finally found one. I spent my whole lunch break on the phone with multiple vets. I was on the phone for at least a good hour and a half. I finally found a well known exotic vet who i booked an appointment with for tomorrow early afternoon. They specialize in reptiles and exotic animals and will give him meds and a diagnosis tomorrow. I now have to skip my zoom meeting to drive to a different state. That's how far the next vet is. Fantastic. But as long as my little guy is getting what he needs, i'd drive across the country for him.


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## Helena F. (Aug 18, 2020)

@Minority2 I know you mean well, but I have said multiple times numbers for the temps and the humidity and everything in between. This is more than just temp issues. I'm doing everything I can and am getting quite frustrated because nothing is working. Please read all of the message to understand what I have done. I will not explain it again. I'm not trying to be mean, I just have a lot on my plate. I physically do no have the room to give him a bigger enclosure at this time. I have two other dogs, as well as classes, appointments, more medications with my other dog because he has a yeast infection in his ear, and plenty of other things to deal with, along side my tortoise, and now driving to ANOTHER STATE to get him to the correct vet. Please stop asking about temps. I have answered those questions.


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## Helena F. (Aug 18, 2020)

i'm going to try syringe feeding since he hasn't eaten in three/ four days. Any ideas on electrolytes. I read on the tortoise library about a homemade solution of salt, sugar, water, and baking soda. should i do that concoction or is it just bs


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## Toddrickfl1 (Aug 18, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> i'm going to try syringe feeding since he hasn't eaten in three/ four days. Any ideas on electrolytes. I read on the tortoise library about a homemade solution of salt, sugar, water, and baking soda. should i do that concoction or is it just bs


I wouldn't, 3-4 days is not a long time for a Tortoise to not eat. It will probably just be more stress for him. You can try baby food soaks. Mix some water with some carrot baby food and soak your tort in that for a while.


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## KronksMom (Aug 18, 2020)

I wouldn't do that. The reason is, it's incredibly easy for a tort (or even a human for that matter) to aspirate. What that means is, you take some of the fluid into your lungs. Especially with an upper respiratory infection already in progress, that could be deadly.


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## Helena F. (Aug 18, 2020)

Yeah. I actually had made the mistake of syringe feeding him. I read that if they hadn't eaten, you should syringe feed them. This was written on the website that my tortoise was going to (the one that was trash here in Virginia) He ate a little. I fed him a tiny piece of cauliflower (his fav treat) and he swallowed it. After he finished eating ( a while later ), he started wheezing and making a cry sound i have never heard before. He spit up his cauliflower. The food that I syringe fed him came gushing out of his nose along with clear mucus. Clear, tear like (mucus I guess) liquid came out of his eyes. I got the spit up food out of his mouth but he continued to make that cry. He finally got enough air and stopped. I cleaned him up and brought him inside. He's asleep now and is okay. I spoke with my mom (who is a nurse) and said that from what she knows about humans ( it may be different for reptiles), that it seemed like a serious respiratory infection, from the way he is acting. She said the same thing about aspiration. Because he is so dehydrated ( i know 3-4 days eating and drinking isnt a long time tho), that the vets may need to give him a stomach tube, if this is as serious as we believe. I'm just trying to take care of him the best i can until tomorrow.


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## Helena F. (Aug 18, 2020)

The crying sound he made, the spitting up food, the wheezing, the liquids from eyes and the nose, all of this combined....i thought he was gonna die....


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## Maggie3fan (Aug 18, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> im measuring all of it. substrate, air temp, heating mats. I'm doing all of the right things. I meant to say treats, not threats. I was talking about his diet. I'm trying to explain that i'm doing everything I can and I want to know what others think this issue is. I'm concerned and* he is in a great environment *and is well taken care of, but he's sick, and idk what is going on. I was asking if anyone knows or thinks they know what these symptoms mean, (example: Respiratory infection)


But he's NOT in a great environment. People are suggesting what you need to do and you aren't doing it, right out, he has an upper respiratory infection and if you can't give him antibiotics he needs a Vet. His temps are too low for him to have humidity...hot and moist=good, cold and moist =bad. UVB rays can't come in thru the glass in that window. You telling us that you can't find an exotic Vet in The City?? Really? I was born and raised in S.F. Please explain just how and why you went to a different state for a Vet??? You make no sense. You say nothing you tried has helped. It's only been 7 days since you first post. It took that tortoise a while to get sick, and it takes a while to make him better. Soak him in strained carrots daily, and he'll get better as far as nutrition goes.


Helena F. said:


> I actually just got off the phone with the vet. He was supposed to call me this morning but never did. I called them just now and was told he wasn't going to see me tomorrow like he was supposed to, and may not even come in until the next day. I was referred to another vet, who referred me to another vet, and finally found one. I spent my whole lunch break on the phone with multiple vets. I was on the phone for at least a good hour and a half. I finally found a well known exotic vet who i booked an appointment with for tomorrow early afternoon. They specialize in reptiles and exotic animals and will give him meds and a diagnosis tomorrow. I now have to skip my zoom meeting to drive to a different state. That's how far the next vet is. Fantastic. But as long as my little guy is getting what he needs, i'd drive across the country for him.


Bull Sh*t You are in San Francisco, right? There's an exotic Vet on just about any corner, there's Vets in
San Bruno, Daly City, and South San Francisco. Want me to continue? Fresno, Clovis, Salinas, Bakersfield all those cities have exotic Vets, so there was no need to drive over 500 miles to get out of California


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## Helena F. (Aug 18, 2020)

@maggie3fan Im not in the city right now. Im in Virginia. If u had actually read the posts you would know that. U arent some expert. Ur just another person with access to the internet. Stop being a little sh*t. I also said that he has heating lamps, uvb light, heating pads, AS WELL as access to a window giving off extra light. I cant help the fact that right now, this day in time, that I can't give him a better enclosure. You have no idea how hard it has been for me as an owner to see him so sick. I'm in a town in virginia with very little vets, and am driving to tennessee tomorrow. I'm juggling a lot of things. When i say the perfect environment im talking temperature wise. He's getting worse, not better. Im not expecting him to be cured the next day, but he should not be getting dramatically worse. Not everyone has time to b*tch at other people like you do. I can give you a whole list of reasons why I can't just drop everything and build the perfect enclosure. I'm giving him the correct temperatures as well. I have very little patience for people like you right now. I care and love for him, and am doing the best I can. So either be helpful, or kindly f*ck off.


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## Helena F. (Aug 18, 2020)

Let me make this loud an clear. Most of you have been extremely helpful, and I am so thankful for you and your wisdom. To the people who are b*tching at me because I don't have a big enough enclosure or keep asking me about temperatures, I already answered these questions. The pattern here is people who are b*tching at me are not reading the whole post. I am doing everything I can to take care of him. I'm trying to get him to a vet to prescribe him antibiotics. I cant just make them appear out of thin air. I'm a full time student juggling classes, homework, two dogs, one dog with a yeast infection in his ear, living across the country with my grandma and my parents, im on zoom meetings from 12-5 everyday, calling vets, giving medicine to my dog, trying to take care of my mental health, bathing my tortoise, spending my money on everything my tortoise could possibly need, literally sleeping on the floor of my grandma's bathroom next to my tortoise so i can watch him throughout the night, and not getting a lot of sleep. I'm doing this all by myself as a sophomore in high school. So i'm sorry i dont have the patience to listen to others bullsh*t, but i'm working my a$$ off. So if you're not going to be helpful, don't write anything on this page. PERIOD!!!!


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## zovick (Aug 18, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> Let me make this loud an clear. Most of you have been extremely helpful, and I am so thankful for you and your wisdom. To the people who are b*tching at me because I don't have a big enough enclosure or keep asking me about temperatures, I already answered these questions. The pattern here is people who are b*tching at me are not reading the whole post. I am doing everything I can to take care of him. I'm trying to get him to a vet to prescribe him antibiotics. I cant just make them appear out of thin air. I'm a full time student juggling classes, homework, two dogs, one dog with a yeast infection in his ear, living across the country with my grandma and my parents, im on zoom meetings from 12-5 everyday, calling vets, giving medicine to my dog, trying to take care of my mental health, bathing my tortoise, spending my money on everything my tortoise could possibly need, literally sleeping on the floor of my grandma's bathroom next to my tortoise so i can watch him throughout the night, and not getting a lot of sleep. I'm doing this all by myself as a sophomore in high school. So i'm sorry i dont have the patience to listen to others bullsh*t, but i'm working my a$$ off. So if you're not going to be helpful, don't write anything on this page. PERIOD!!!!


Helena,
I would not recommend trying to feed the tortoise with a syringe any more right now. There is a very good chance it will aspirate some of the food (if it didn't do so already) and get pneumonia on top of the other problems. Wait till you get to the vet tomorrow and if he/she thinks the tortoise needs a stomach tube, let them put it in place. THEN you can safely get the food from the syringe into the tortoise's stomach without having it possibly be aspirated into the lungs. Note that stomach tubes are usually placed through an incision at the base of the neck and go directly into the stomach. A cap is placed over the end which sticks out of the opening. You then just open the cap, squirt the food into the tube with a syringe, and follow it with a bit of water to flush the tube. Then close the cap and wait till the next feeding to repeat the process. It is much easier than trying to feed it through the mouth which further stresses the tortoise and is a possible source of aspiration pneumonia or even worse, death. The vet should also have a powdered food to give you which you mix with water to feed the tortoise.

If you are seeing a really good exotics vet, there is a chance that he/she will want to keep the tortoise for a few days to make sure it is doing well. I would say that would be a good idea as they normally have specially prepared set-ups in which to keep sick animals. Think of a baby incubator such as used for premature infants. That is very similar what I have seen used in my experience. Then the vet could give the required medications plus feed the tortoise for a few days and give you back a healthier, happier tortoise.

Let us know how it goes, and again I wish you good luck.


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## Helena F. (Aug 18, 2020)

zovick said:


> Helena,
> I would not recommend trying to feed the tortoise with a syringe any more right now. There is a very good chance it will aspirate some of the food (if it didn't do so already) and get pneumonia on top of the other problems. Wait till you get to the vet tomorrow and if he/she thinks the tortoise needs a stomach tube, let them put it in place. THEN you can safely get the food from the syringe into the tortoise's stomach without having it possibly be aspirated into the lungs. Note that stomach tubes are usually placed through an incision at the base of the neck and go directly into the stomach. A cap is placed over the end which sticks out of the opening. You then just open the cap, squirt the food into the tube with a syringe, and follow it with a bit of water to flush the tube. Then close the cap and wait till the next feeding to repeat the process. It is much easier than trying to feed it through the mouth which further stresses the tortoise and is a possible source of aspiration pneumonia or even worse, death. The vet should also have a powdered food to give you which you mix with water to feed the tortoise.
> 
> If you are seeing a really good exotics vet, there is a chance that he/she will want to keep the tortoise for a few days to make sure it is doing well. I would say that would be a good idea as they normally have specially prepared set-ups in which to keep sick animals. Think of a baby incubator such as used for premature infants. That is very similar what I have seen used in my experience. Then the vet could give the required medications plus feed the tortoise for a few days and give you back a healthier, happier tortoise.
> ...


Thank you. I know my last two posts have been kind of cranky and i apologize. Thank you for your help. I totally regret syringe feeding him, but will 100% not do that again. I'm learning from my mistakes and trying my best to keep my composure. Guess you all can kind of tell im stressed out and running on very little sleep huh? lol. Will let you know how it goes tmr. Thank you for your wisdom and your support.


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## wellington (Aug 18, 2020)

Keep this friendly and watch your language. 
Lots of people are having harder then normal times right now. 
Let's give helpful tips and info.
A sick tortoise is better off in a smaller hospital tank until it's well. I'm sure when the OP can, they will improve the enclosure. For now the enclosure is fitting in size for the situation.


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## wellington (Aug 18, 2020)

I have not read very many posts on this thread. I just want to say that temps should be kept at a higher temp when a tortoise is sick. 85 all over day and night.
Just incase it hasn't been said.
Good luck hope all turns out well.


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## Helena F. (Aug 18, 2020)

Thank you. I agree. This whole Corona thing is driving everyone nuts. I don't think getting upset and arguing with one another is going to help anything. Whether its negative or positive input, I'm trying my best and learning not only about taking care for my tortoise, but learning about myself and how to react better in a positive way. I apologize for my behavior, and being upset is not going to make my tortoise better. Being calm is the best thing that I can do to help him. Will def continue to keep temps above 85. Much love to all and wish the best for each one of you.


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## Tom (Aug 18, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> Thank you. I agree. This whole Corona thing is driving everyone nuts. I don't think getting upset and arguing with one another is going to help anything. Whether its negative or positive input, I'm trying my best and learning not only about taking care for my tortoise, but learning about myself and how to react better in a positive way. I apologize for my behavior, and being upset is not going to make my tortoise better. Being calm is the best thing that I can do to help him. Will def continue to keep temps above 85. Much love to all and wish the best for each one of you.


What type of UV light are you using?

Heat mats are not safe for tortoises. I would not use those.

I think the stress of shipping, and going from a dry environment to a humid one is the cause of your problem. The right meds from the vet should clear it up.


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## wellington (Aug 19, 2020)

Tom said:


> What type of UV light are you using?
> 
> Heat mats are not safe for tortoises. I would not use those.
> 
> I think the stress of shipping, and going from a dry environment to a humid one is the cause of your problem. The right meds from the vet should clear it up.


Tom I would love for you to clarify the heat mat not safe for tortoises. I believe you, Yvonne, me others use and recommend the Kane heat mat or the similar ones sold. 
It's very confusing to say they are not safe, yet hundreds of post where they are recommended or stated being used by you and others.


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## Helena F. (Aug 19, 2020)

Tom said:


> What type of UV light are you using?
> 
> Heat mats are not safe for tortoises. I would not use those.
> 
> I think the stress of shipping, and going from a dry environment to a humid one is the cause of your problem. The right meds from the vet should clear it up.


I was told by the vet i was seeing to use a reptisun 10.0 desert bulb with a dome lamp. Its the tube kind. I keep it a foot away.

For the heat mat i use an undertank heater. Right now i use a small one that is plastic safe for his temporary enclosure. I have a bigger heat mat for when we move. I also use a heat mat thermostat so i can control the temp.

I agree about the stress part. Stress can be a big factor in causing his (what i believe) RI


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## Tom (Aug 19, 2020)

wellington said:


> Tom I would love for you to clarify the heat mat not safe for tortoises. I believe you, Yvonne, me others use and recommend the Kane heat mat or the similar ones sold.
> It's very confusing to say they are not safe, yet hundreds of post where they are recommended or stated being used by you and others.


The indoor reptile under tank heating pads is what I'm referring to. That is what the OP in this thread is using. Those should not be used.

Outdoor Kane mats controlled by a thermostat for larger tortoises is an entirely different concept. Totally fine and safe.


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## Tom (Aug 19, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> I was told by the vet i was seeing to use a reptisun 10.0 desert bulb with a dome lamp. Its the tube kind. I keep it a foot away.
> 
> For the heat mat i use an undertank heater. Right now i use a small one that is plastic safe for his temporary enclosure. I have a bigger heat mat for when we move. I also use a heat mat thermostat so i can control the temp.
> 
> I agree about the stress part. Stress can be a big factor in causing his (what i believe) RI


The vet told you to use a cfl, but you are using the long tube type instead? Is it the T8 or newer T5 HO type? Does it have a reflector? What length is it? What length is the enclosure?

Trying to eliminate possibilities here...


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## wellington (Aug 19, 2020)

Tom said:


> The indoor reptile under tank heating pads is what I'm referring to. That is what the OP in this thread is using. Those should not be used.
> 
> Outdoor Kane mats controlled by a thermostat for larger tortoises is an entirely different concept. Totally fine and safe.


I didnt realize they had stated what kind of heat mat until after your post.
After your post, yes she did state under the tank. I didn't see it posted before your post.


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## Helena F. (Aug 19, 2020)

Wait what is wrong with an under tank heater? Is it dangerous?


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## Yvonne G (Aug 19, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> Wait what is wrong with an under tank heater? Is it dangerous?


Baby tortoises don't realize they can move off of it if they get too hot.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 19, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> I was told by the vet i was seeing to use a reptisun 10.0 desert bulb with a dome lamp. Its the tube kind. I keep it a foot away.
> 
> For the heat mat i use an undertank heater. Right now i use a small one that is plastic safe for his temporary enclosure. I have a bigger heat mat for when we move. I also use a heat mat thermostat so i can control the temp.
> 
> I agree about the stress part. Stress can be a big factor in causing his (what i believe) RI


Hi Helena: The vet told you to use a Reptisun 10.0 desert bulb with a dome lamp. This is NOT the tube kind. This is a compact fluorescent bulb, and they have been known to harm young tortoises' eyes. The "tube type" we're referring to is long, maybe 22" long, not tubed back and forth and fitting in a dome fixture.

Compact fluorescent bulb - Reptisun 10.0:




This is the kind we're telling you to use:


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## Tom (Aug 19, 2020)

wellington said:


> I didnt realize they had stated what kind of heat mat until after your post.
> After your post, yes she did state under the tank. I didn't see it posted before your post.


Its no problem. Clarification is good!


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## Tom (Aug 19, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> Wait what is wrong with an under tank heater? Is it dangerous?


Yes.

When a tortoise feels hot, their instinct is to dig down to escape the heat of the sun. They don't use reason and logic to realize "Hey. This mat under me is hot and I should move off of it." Intread they keep trying to dig down underground and get "away" from the surface heat and sun. In the wild, this would save their life. In our tanks, this places them right on top of the mat. They don't sweat to cool, and the temperature only has to be a little over 100 to eventually do damage. It doesn't have to be so hot that they burst into flames. Just a little too hot is enough to kill cells and damage tissue. Much the same way a basking bulb will often "slow-burn" the carapace of larger tortoises.


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## Helena F. (Aug 19, 2020)

Tom said:


> Yes.
> 
> When a tortoise feels hot, their instinct is to dig down to escape the heat of the sun. They don't use reason and logic to realize "Hey. This mat under me is hot and I should move off of it." Intread they keep trying to dig down underground and get "away" from the surface heat and sun. In the wild, this would save their life. In our tanks, this places them right on top of the mat. They don't sweat to cool, and the temperature only has to be a little over 100 to eventually do damage. It doesn't have to be so hot that they burst into flames. Just a little too hot is enough to kill cells and damage tissue. Much the same way a basking bulb will often "show-burn" the carapace of larger tortoises.


Okay thank you. That makes a lot of sense. Would it be okay if I kept it on at night? just on one side of his little terrarium?


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## Tom (Aug 19, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> Okay thank you. That makes a lot of sense. Would it be okay if I kept it on at night? just on one side of his little terrarium?


I wouldn't. Heat for tortoises should come from over head. Either a CHE or a RHP, controlled by a thermostat.


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## Helena F. (Aug 19, 2020)

I just got back from the vet. He does have a upper respiratory infection, (as I and many others believed he did). He got his first shot for antibiotics, and has nasal drops that I will give to him two times a day. He goes back Friday for another shot. The vet and I agreed that if he continues to not eat in the next couple days, he will get critical care oral feeding. Hopefully he eats, but only time will tell. Thank you for your wisdom and support.


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## zovick (Aug 19, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> I just got back from the vet. He does have a upper respiratory infection, (as I and many others believed he did). He got his first shot for antibiotics, and has nasal drops that I will give to him two times a day. He goes back Friday for another shot. The vet and I agreed that if he continues to not eat in the next couple days, he will get critical care oral feeding. Hopefully he eats, but only time will tell. Thank you for your wisdom and support.


Do you know the name of the antibiotic? Was it ceftazidime (Fortaz)? Just curious what medication the vet used. Also where was it injected? Front leg or rear leg areas?


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## Agathaade (Aug 19, 2020)

Hi @Helena F. 
Just chiming in to give you a little tip about repeating the same answers multiple times. Or what seems like the same answers, but may not be. 

You can create a template in a notes app on your phone or laptop, all systems have one, that you can copy paste. I’m saying this bc looks like in your frustration you spent time writing about being frustrated when a simple copy paste would have been a quicker solve. No judgement here, just trying to point a way forward. 
Could look like this :

************
DAYTIME
Cool side temp : 
Basking temp : 
Cool side humidity :
Warm side Relative humidity
NIGHTTIME
Overnight temp : 
Overnight Relative humidity
*Measurement tools : type and method 

LIGHTS & HEAT
Basking bulb : make and Wattage
UV : make and model
CHE : 
Heat mat : type and placement

Substrate : 

Enclosure type : kiddie pool, open. 

Symptoms : description and duration
***********

Please anyone knowledgeable improve on this!!! Maybe the forum could pin such a form when people come asking for help and inevitably the same questions are asked. 

Good luck with your tortoise.


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## Helena F. (Aug 19, 2020)

Agathaade said:


> Hi @Helena F.
> Just chiming in to give you a little tip about repeating the same answers multiple times. Or what seems like the same answers, but may not be.
> 
> You can create a template in a notes app on your phone or laptop, all systems have one, that you can copy paste. I’m saying this bc looks like in your frustration you spent time writing about being frustrated when a simple copy paste would have been a quicker solve. No judgement here, just trying to point a way forward.
> ...


Haha yeah. Fr that would have been a lot less time consuming then going on a rant. will def use that. thanks so much


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## Helena F. (Aug 19, 2020)

zovick said:


> Do you know the name of the antibiotic? Was it ceftazidime (Fortaz)? Just curious what medication the vet used. Also where was it injected? Front leg or rear leg areas?


I do not know. we were running around trying to get him and do this from the car since we aren't allowed into the actual clinic due to covid. He gets another shot on Friday and will def ask those questions. The nasal drops are called terramycin ophthalmic ointment. Also does anyone have any ideas on feeding my tort. He hasn't eaten in about 4-5 days now and if he doesn't eat by friday he will have to have critical care oral feeding. I was thinking about making his food into a mush, since I don't want to syringe feed him due to possible aspiration. Any ideas?


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## zovick (Aug 19, 2020)

Helena F. said:


> I do not know. we were running around trying to get him and do this from the car since we aren't allowed into the actual clinic due to covid. He gets another shot on Friday and will def ask those questions. The nasal drops are called terramycin ophthalmic ointment. Also does anyone have any ideas on feeding my tort. He hasn't eaten in about 4-5 days now and if he doesn't eat by friday he will have to have critical care oral feeding. I was thinking about making his food into a mush, since I don't want to syringe feed him due to possible aspiration. Any ideas?


I would just keep offering him the things he used to like the most. As soon as he starts feeling better from his medications, he will eat on his own, hopefully by Friday. Tortoises can go quite a while without eating and still be OK. The vet who does endoscopies at UGA vet school requires that the tortoises not be fed for three days before going to him for the appointment. By the time they have been endoscoped, they haven't eaten for four days and aren't offered food till the fifth day.


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## Helena F. (Aug 20, 2020)

I've found that soaking his Mazuri tortoise diet in warm water helps soften the pellets up, as well as steaming carrots and other veggies to make them softer. He just ate today by hand feeding. I soak him in lukewarm water 2x per day before I give him his nasal injections. Bathing him before his meds seems to help the ointment dissolve into his nostrils easier than when he's dry. He also is drinking the water so that's good too. He hates the ointment though and keeps wiping it off. Im keeping him in temps above 85 as well so he stays nice and warm. He sleeps 99% of the day, but was wondering if he could go outside for like 30 minutes for some fresh air. He gets his second set of shots tmr, and will continue treatment until he is better.


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## Helena F. (Aug 20, 2020)

also, I recently noticed that my russian tortoise's spots were wearing down. ive read they wear down, especially for digging breeds but do the come/grow back? also he has a dip inwards in the last middle scute. anyone know why and is there anyway to fix both of these problems? I give him supplements and the correct diet, as well as improving his enclosure


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