# Any way to cure Pyramiding?



## Stalvros

Good evening to all members.
I would just like to ask some questions with regards
to pyramiding if I may?

I adopted these tortoises from a friend of mine.
They're both 9cm of length, very friendly, very tame
and very very beautiful if I might add.

However, they have a slight pyramiding.
I was told that if they're small, it can still be cured as they grow.

Here's what they look like now;







I was wondering if I could seek assistance of all
the professionals here on how to cure this if there's
a way at all.

I've been trying to find information here and there
and have been advices numerous solutions to which
I don't even know WILL work or not.

To summarize, they told me that
- Their space have to be 10 times of their size.
- They have to be given water at all times.
- Don't over-feed.
- They have to had access to UV Ray or just bathe them under the sun once a day.
- Don't feed them mazuri as it causes pyramiding.

In any case, the setup I have at the moment is this;
(Only during night-time when they sleep)
(In the morning to evening, I let them roam around the apartment)




And the food I'm giving them is this;




The UV light is ON during 9am -> 9pm
I've also placed thermometer and hydrometer to measure the temperature and humidity.
Thermometer indicates on average 28 - 31 degrees celcius
Hydrometer indicates on average 50 - 70 percent
Water is always changed EVERYDAY.
Feeding only occurs once in the morning.
Portion of food can be seen in the setup every morning.

Please let me know if I am doing anything wrong~


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## HtVic

how did you get 50-70% of humi when you are using newspaper as their bedding?
according most tort owner , humidity is very important


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## wellington

They are beautiful. You cannot cure pyramiding, but you can make the new growth grow in smooth, which as adults will make the pyramiding they do have look less. The enclosure you have them in is way to small. News paper is not a good substrate. You need to give them a more varied diet. They need UVB lighting and heat source. Mazuri does not cause pyramiding. I don't have the same species as yours, so I can't help the specifics, as far as the best substrate or temp/humidity levels, etc. Others will be along soon.
By the way WELCOME and again they are beautiful. Everything you need to know to raise them properly you will find here on TFO. Hang on others will join in


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## Yvonne G

Hi Stalvros:


*Welcome to the Tortoise Forum!!*

What would you like for us to call you? 

Also, when we know *approximately* where you are, it helps us design our answers to better fit your questions.


Your beautiful tortoises need a hiding place. Baby tortoises are prey, and they are stressed if they can't hide.

A nice variety of different kinds of greens should be offered daily.

If you add a substrate, you will be able to keep it moist. The humidity/moisture is what keeps tortoises from pyramiding. So when they go into their hiding place they will be on moist substrate and this will help the shells.


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## Jacob

They Are Still Young, You can Reverse The Pyramiding By The Time they are Full Grown.

You need Substrate to Keep it moist and Humid in there, and A Nice Varied Diet Helps to.


Humidity helps torts not to Pyramid, Just Spray There Whole enclosure and there shells several times daily to keep up the humidity.

if the weather permits let them get access to natural sun as well.


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## wellington

Jacob said:


> They Are Still Young, You can Reverse The Pyramiding By The Time they are Full Grown.
> 
> You need Substrate to Keep it moist and Humid in there, and A Nice Varied Diet Helps to.
> 
> 
> Humidity helps torts not to Pyramid, Just Spray There Whole enclosure and there shells several times daily to keep up the humidity.
> 
> if the weather permits let them get access to natural sun as well.



Just so there is no confusion. You can not reverse what has already pyramided. However, you can make the new growth grow smooth, which will make what is pyramided look less prominent when they are adults.


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## Jacob

Yea, typo 
you can't reverse it But if You keep them humid and on a varied diet, they will grow smoother.


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## tortoises101

The tortoises you have are ploughshare tortoises, astrochelys yniphora or Angonoka. There are barely a few hundred adults left on the earth and are also one of the most endangered chelonians on the planet and can be considered one of the top 20 endangered animals on the earth. Since you have 2 in your possession, you should do your very best to give them the very best care. First of all, get them off the newspaper substrate and onto a more natural substrate of a 60/40 mix of play sand and topsoil. Add more plants into the enclosure: bamboo and tall grass are ideal. Your diet is seriously lacking nutrition; start feeding them Opuntia cactus pads, hibiscus flowers, and weeds. No meat; Opuntia cactus fruit or pitaya as an occasional treat is fine. Here's a list of weeds you can feed:
http://www.tlady.clara.net/TortGuide/Diet.htm#plantlist
Mazuri isn't bad food. It's actually good stuff to feed tortoises, just make sure that the majority of their diet revolves around plant food. Animal protein is bad and does cause shell deformities, but Mazuri has no form of animal matter in it. Dusting the food with calcium and D3 powder for every feeding is also a good idea.
You also need UVB and a proper heat lamp. From the looks of it, your light looks like a simple desk lamp. Look for Zoomed and Exoterra bulbs; T-rex is also a pretty good brand. Your temps are pretty good. Let me notify you that you should NEVER EVER LET YOUR TORTOISES ROAM AROUND THE APARTMENT. Here's why: http://tortoisetrust.org/articles/roaming.html

Keep us updated.


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## Stalvros

Wow, I am amazed at the response I received from this form at such a short time.
I would really like to thank you guys for the advice.

I live in Indonesia by the way.
That's the reason why I can reach 50-70% humidity here because it's a tropical country lol.
Everyone here uses newspaper as it's way easier to maintain. (Indoor-wise)

As for the UV lamp, i got the UV-bulb to which I use the desk lamp as an enclosure.
Don't really need the heat lamp as it's hot enough here in Indo as it is .
I tried using heat lamp before and it got to 40 degrees!!!!!
(According to most people, enough to cook a dead fish!)

PS: I am so sorry the2nd, 3rd and 4th pic are sooooooooooo HUGE!!!!!
I tried to edit but apparently I can only edit 30 mins after
the topic is created >_<.


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## l0velesly

I think substrate is very easy to maintain. Even with some kind of soil substrate, you won't have to replace it until after 3 months or so. Keep the diet varied, with lots of dark leafy greens  Keep the humidity up by spraying them occasionally throughout the day. And definitely give them a nice hide.


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## Kristina

Two things I want to address - Mazuri and substrate.

First off, Mazuri. Mazuri does NOT cause pyramiding. (I actually typed all this out earlier to answer another member's question, just going to cut and paste it because it applies here as well  )

Take a look here -












See any pyramiding? Nope  That baby has eaten Mazuri every day for the last several months. It wasn't the Mazuri that did the pyramiding.

Mazuri does contain protein, but the protein does not cause pyramiding. For one, Mazuri contains plant protein versus animal protein.

There is a big difference between PLANT protein and ANIMAL protein. Now, years ago a myth developed somehow that protein was responsible for pyramiding. That led a lot of people to cut out a lot of food items from their tortoise's diets, including plant items with high level of protein like alfalfa and spinach. But tortoises STILL pyramided. How that myth grew and perpetuated for so long is completely beyond me. 

Tortoises and box turtles that are fed an ANIMAL protein rich food, like canned cat or dog food or monkey chow, grow to be hideously deformed. I personally believe this has less to do with the fact that they have been feed excess amounts of protein and more to do with the lack of any other nutrients in the diet, but I digress. With grassland tortoises like Sulcatas, though, excessive animal protein could possibly be extremely hard on the liver and kidneys, causing health issues later on.

(Just a side note - I have inclosures with what is called a "bioactive substrate." That means there are living bacteria and other organisms in the soil, along with plants, to create a miniature ecosystem. There are an abundance of worms, isopods, snails, slugs, etc. living in my enclosures, and quite often they hang out under the water dishes. Just a couple of days ago, when I removed the dish for a scrub, one of my baby Sulcatas, Devon, found and ate a worm. I have doubts as to the total exclusion of animal protein in the diet of wild tortoises, as I have also seen an adult Russian tortoise eating a slug in my yard, but again I digress.)

In recent years and months, we have made quite a few advances in the causes of pyramiding. As I demonstrated above with the picture of my baby Dee, protein obviously has little to nothing to do with it. It is just that a lot of the the things we discover and discuss here on TFO have not yet been widely accepted or discovered by the tortoise community as a whole. 

Second - substrate.

As I mentioned above, I typically use a bioactive substrate. You can do the same, but it isn't necessary. However, newspaper is BAD. I understand that a lot of people over there use it, but that doesn't make it the best thing to use. I will explain why it is bad and why it is better to use a real substrate.

First off, newspaper is slick. It does not allow for very good traction. Over months and years, this can cause bone and muscle deformity in the tortoise's legs. Not only is that a painful thing to have to go through, it can cripple them for life. This doesn't happen to every tortoise that is kept on newspaper, but it is a risk, and with tortoises as rare and special as the ones that you have, it is one that is not worth taking.

Second, there is the humidity issue. I know that your country has a very high ambient humidity due to the climate there. Obviously, that isn't good enough, because if it was, you tortoises would not be pyramided in the first place. Using a humidity holding substrate helps ensure against further pyramiding. Plain soil is much, much better than newspaper.

Third, these are TORTOISES. All tortoises share one thing in common - they LOVE to DIG. A tortoise that cannot dig down in the dirt and hide a little, is a sad tortoise. It is in their nature to do this. Not all tortoises dig extensive burrows, like a Sulcata, but all tortoises like to wedge themselves in tight at the base of a plant or rack and throw a little moist dirt over their backs. It is natural and right for them to be able to do that. 

As far as being easy to maintain - Newspaper has to be changed. A properly maintained substrate NEVER has to be changed. I have been using the same substrate for years. I pick out the solid wastes and the bacteria and bugs in the soil take care of the rest. Not all bacteria is bad. The bacteria that lives in the soil is called "beneficial bacteria" and will not harm you or your tortoise.

As Tony mentioned above, the tortoises you have are extremely special. I would give ANYTHING to be able to work with this species. You have that chance, and I really hope that you take our advice to heart. 

Welcome to the forum!


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## Stalvros

Thank you so much for your advices!
Umm yes, I actually have plans to change newspaper.

What i really wanted was actually to place SOILS instead of newspapers.
However, I don't really know what kind of soil should I use and stuff.
Not to mention the kind of bugs that comes with it >_<.

They have different types of soils here, I really don't know which one to get.


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## Stalvros

Ok, thanks to the advices of many,
here are the changes I've made.

1st - No more newspaper,
changed the substrate to plain soil and some grass called 'Rumput Gajah Mini'
here in Jakarta. I have totally no idea what the english translation is, but they've
never been happier and more excited the way I see it. The humidity increased from
65% to 75%~

2nd - Changed the food source to just mazuri.
But is this ok?

here are the changes;




Things noted but not done yet,
1st - Shelter;
I still have not found the best shelter for these tortoises yet.
I mean, should I just cut open some sort of box and just lunge
it in the middle or something?


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## Radiated

Did u know u had two astrochelys yniphora's?
How much did they cost in Jakarta? In China where i come from a tortoise about 10cm cost upto 5000 USD.

Your terrarium looks a bit small, u might want to thing about getting a larger one. I think that building/temple shaped object in the top corner is how he gets the humidity(not too sure)


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## Kristina

I would not change the diet to JUST Mazuri. You can feed Mazuri as part of the diet, but you should also feed a wide range of dark leafy greens as well, along with some vegetable occasionally. Fruit should be very, very limited, maybe once a month at the most. 

A hide can be as simple as a cardboard box with a hole cut in it. You can use flower pots laid on their side and half buried in the substrate. Whatever you can find that will work. 

I agree that the enclosure is a little small, but you have made some good changes


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## Stalvros

Well, the 2 tortoises are given to me as a gift from my friend.
So I don't really know the price of it, nor do I bother to check how much it would cost in the market.

What kind of dark-leafy greens should I use?
Could you guys recommend me one that's
1st - easy to purchase in the local jakarta supermarket (if you know of any).
2nd - can last long when kept in the fridge. (At least 1 week)

In here, they sell veggies like;
- bean sprouts
- cabbage
- brocolli
- long beans
(all which isn't in the list of recommended food for tortoises)

Please note that the enclosure is ONLY for bed-time. (9pm-6am)
This is the enclosure for play-time. (6am-9pm)


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## tortoises101

Salad mix is good. Any lettuce (no iceberg or bok choy) will suffice. Try to find them pesticide and insecticide free grass, and have you used the pictures on the list of weeds I gave you to help locate them?


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## Radiated

Why do you keep so many different species of tortoises together?


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## tortoises101

Looking at those pics, I see 2 radiateds, 2 sulcatas, and a redfoot. Mixing species is like playing Russian Roulette. The fact that you're mixing 3 species from totally different geographic locations makes cross contamination a real possibility. It's even more dangerous if not all of your tortoises are captive bred. SEPARATE THEM IMMEDIATELY.


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## Radiated

tortoises101 said:


> Looking at those pics, I see 2 radiateds, 2 sulcatas, and a redfoot. Mixing species is like playing Russian Roulette. The fact that you're mixing 3 species from totally different geographic locations makes cross contamination a real possibility. It's even more dangerous if not all of your tortoises are captive bred. SEPARATE THEM IMMEDIATELY.



I would do that for sure. Its not worth the risk.


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## Radiated

Have you separated them?


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