# Turtle is streatching neck, gaping, and making the sound!



## omhoge

Our tortoise is an African Hingeback, he's lived with us over 30 years
he was a young adult when we adopted him, we estimate his age at 35 - 40 years.

A couple of months ago he started "pumping" his head and front legs in an out,
unusually opening and closing his mouth,
now also pumping the bottom of his throat under the jaw,
sometimes weeping and drooling.

I took him to a new Vet who seems really good who did a blood test which revealed
*low calcium to phosphorus ratio and suspected low vitamin D*.

*No signs of infection at all*, no worms as of last test about 8-10 months ago (he has no exposure to other animals).
The X-Ray showed (as best as they can) no foreign objects,
the Vet was able to get him to open his mouth wide and saw nothing in his throat as far as she could see.

I've added a daily calcium/Vit. D supplement to his food (Repto-Cal), 

switched the type of heat and UVB bulbs (#5 strength UVB and will replace in 6 months), 

and increased spritzing, keeping areas of his pen damp, and more frequent baths.
It's about a month since these lifestyle changes.

*He often lies with his head out, opening his mouth gaping, sometimes leaving drool puddles.
And he has recently started making the squeaking sound! *
(Before he only ever made a sound when getting "romantic" with a shoe)
*
He has also taken to elevating his head, resting his chin on the edge of his water bowl, 
or propping his head way up, almost straight up, on the side of his tank or on the side of a small ball.
And often falls asleep in these potions. *
He used to always pull in when he slept, and never opened his mouth except when eating.
*
Has anyone else ever seen their tort's do this?*

Closely listening to him: there is no sign of wheezing or sounds of troubled breath,
his appetite and pooping seem good and normal,
but lately he is not being as active as he usually is in the Summer heat,
he takes in the finely chopped course dark greens mixed in his food.
When active he's just like always: chasing us around or climbing on the shoes,
but there are increasingly more frequent periods of lethargic, sprawled, head out resting.

The vet suggested direct sunlight outdoors, but that's difficult and not very safe where we live.
Her initial treatment is to use the new UVB bulb, supplement, increased baths
and keep an eye on him.

He's not getting better yet, and I'm worried.

_[I am starting this as a new thread from the "pale thin band" thread where I originally posted this update, 
that band in his shell seems to be new growth and unrelated to these symptoms, 
I'm hoping by starting this new thread it will get more attention and guidance]_

Thanks Everyone!


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## Kasia

I would say get another's Vet opinion. Did the X-ray excluded pneumonia/infection? Or a heart condition? Did the Vet consider viral infections?


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## omhoge

Thank you* Kasia*. The Vet said the x-ray looked normal. I believe she meant viral as well when she said there wasn't an infection from the blood test.

She did not mention a heart condition. Are these symptoms consistent with that? Can you treat it?

This was the fourth vet I've taken him to and the *only *one who knew tortoises and how to handle them. I guess we can try another, but at this point I'm a bit doubtful of finding a better one.


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## Kasia

Make sure that all those specific tests were run... some of them are not included or can't be done in a standard blood panel (viral/protozoa definitely are not) ... all those test results are YOURS and you should be able to get a copy of them. The same goes for X-ray. If you're not certain what was done ask your Vet it is his job to inform you. You pay for it.
Open mouth breathing is one of the indications of a possible heart problem but I wouldn't go there if an infection was not ruled out for certain. 
I would redo the fecal as well, parasites eggs can be found of food items and if you feed your tortoise items grown outside nothing is impossible. Were are you from?


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## omhoge

Thank you* again Kasia*! We are in New York City. We have the X-Ray, I didn't think to ask for the blood tests thank you. I'll follow up and ask she confirm if the viral/protozoa infection was tested. I hope I don't have to make him have another blood test.

Will adding carrots daily help? The only other forum thread I found here that mentioned gaping said they cured their pet by adding carrot baby food to warm baths every 30 minutes. (we can only do nightly baths)

The Very first vet we took him to 30 years ago (long before the four recent ones and now retired), he had pneumonia when we got him, had us soak him in antibiotics, this new/latest vet said soaking does not help much as they don't absorb very much and she'd have gone with injections.


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## Kasia

Was he given any antibiotics now? Is he still eating (a bit at least)? If yes I don't think adding carrots to soaking will help him. Daily normal warm water soaks are of course good so keep up with them.


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## Markw84

what you are describing can be a normal cooling mechanism tortoises have when they get too hot. They will pump their throat and legs to move air more forcefully in and out while excess "saliva" and watering eyes, will serve as an evaporative cooling. Tortoises have been shown to survive ambient temps over 15° above their thermal max with this technique.

Has it been very warm where they tortoise is? Perhaps you are just noticing this and not seen the tortoise in a very hot environment before??


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## Kasia

Markw84 said:


> what you are describing can be a normal cooling mechanism tortoises have when they get too hot. They will pump their throat and legs to move air more forcefully in and out while excess "saliva" and watering eyes, will serve as an evaporative cooling. Tortoises have been shown to survive ambient temps over 15° above their thermal max with this technique.
> 
> Has it been very warm where they tortoise is? Perhaps you are just noticing this and not seen the tortoise in a very hot environment before??


They have him for 30 years...I would not assume that.


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## TammyJ

I certainly hope you can find what is wrong, and that your tortoise will get better!
All the best of luck with this.


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## TammyJ

Kasia said:


> They have him for 30 years...I would not assume that.


They may not have lived in the same place for the 30 years they had him.


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## Markw84

Kasia said:


> They have him for 30 years...I would not assume that.


A change in lifestyle, work status, enclosure, unusually hot weather, activity on a forum causing you to be more observant, etc, etc. often will lead to things we can notice that we had not noticed before.


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## Kasia

I believe in a keepers eye and what I meant is that 30 years is enough to get to know your pet. 
If you think his acting strange he probably is.


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## Teodora'sDAD

This sounds exactly like what happened to my tortoise. I put her outside in her enclosure and left for about a half hour. came back and she was throat pumping and gaping her mouth with LOTS of saliva. she also appeared to be trying to dig..... I completely forgot to put her over hang back up after taking it down to water. Luckily I remembered reading somewhere on here the symptoms of a tortoise over heating. I gave her a room temp soak and that helped after a few minutes! That was a while ago and I have learned a great lesson from that. That's also when I started to notice how much she regulated her temp by using the shaded area. Sometimes she is in it all the way or just half way. She will also look for the water source to take a quick dip. its all pre-programed.


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## omhoge

Thank you Kasia, Markw84, TammyJ, good points all! I wish it were as simple as overheating or forum hypochondria, but I doubt it. The front head and limb pumping started while we were still in an exceeding cool Spring here. His average pen temp. was around 80 to 90 at that point, and I've increased it to an average minimum of 90, plus we are finally having some Summer Weather here.

It sounds like similar signs to yours when overheated, but he still does it when we let him out to run around in the living room which is definitely cooler than his pen.

He is not on antibiotics now because the blood tests showed no infection, which was a relief since the thought of giving him a daily injection was not something I wanted to have to do. I'm going to email the vet about the viral tests, she's been remarkably good about replying to emails albeit with an understandable delay.

He's eating TONS! His feeding is at full Summer levels, but his activity is extremely low for this Season. I'm certainly not a turtle expert by any means, but yes I know This Turtle well. We've lived in the same place for about 20 years, the only change is for two years now he sometimes goes with us upstate on weekends, but seems accustomed to the trip and to love his room up there where he's kept warm and gets to spend more time with us, and that seems to have contributed positively to his growth spurt. The vet visit was worth it, we learned a lot, but it cost a lot too, I may have to get pet insurance before I take him back.

Just as well about the carrots, he clearly didn't like them.


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## omhoge

When you pick up your Tortoise, should he feel cool to the touch? I thought that was bad so make sure he's warm both with the theremometer and holding him. When he's out and about his shell definitely feels cooler.


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## zovick

This sounds like the classic signs of pneumonia to me. I would give the tortoise Fortaz (ceftazidime) to see if the symptoms subside regardless of the vet saying there is no infection. Did the vet tell you specifically the white blood cell count was not elevated? Does this vet treat enough tortoises to know the normal WBC count for this species, or tortoises in general?

The dose for Fortaz for tortoises is 20 mg. per kilo of weight and it is given every three days for 3-4 doses. Severe cases can be dosed every other day for 5 doses. It certainly won't hurt anything to give him 3-4 doses of the medication and see if he improves. Don't even bother with Baytril if anyone recommends it to you. It doesn't work as well, causes pain when injected, tissue necrosis at the injection site, plus has to be given more frequently as well.


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## Dudley The Sulcata

I just read an article on Herpes virus in tortoises, some of the symptoms match up... maybe ask the vet to just rule it out?


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## omhoge

Thank you Zovick and Dudley. 
I'm going to have to take him back to the vet and will ask about herpes. 

There's a factor now that was not happening when he had pneumonia when we first got him. 
Back then he did not display any of these symptoms, and he is not currently wheezing or sounding nasally congested; 
and back then the wheezing was constant all the time, now the gaping and squeezing is *intermittent*. He will be active and normal, then slow down and start mouth breathing. 

We also are finding we can only give him very shallow baths right now, he's start showing distress with the usual amount of water (about up mid shell); 
not sure if he's having trouble lifting his head up a little bit to breathe like usual or if his trying to climb out of his tub is triggering it. 

Thank you again everyone, your thoughts are helpful while we deal with this hard to figure out illness.


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## omhoge

He has now started "coughing" every once in a while.

Rough but productive visit with Vet, she was very open to discussing all of your thoughts mentioned here and patiently went through all my questions and concerns.
He was in the midst of an episode and the Vet felt it so obvious he's in distress we didn't need another blood test to proceed.
I also took in a stool sample just to rule that part out for sure.

We are starting with a 14 day course of oral Baytril.
I let them give him an injection last night so I could learn how to do it (in the inside of the front leg, lower muscle, between scales),
but watching him scream while it was happening makes me want to do *anything* to avoid forcing him go through that again.
Though very active on our way there, when we got home he was completely immobile and wouldn't eat. It almost seemed like he wanted to eat but couldn't,
but really hard to tell.

This morning he ate a small amount of his favorite food with the medication in it,
then I offered him more of his regular food without medication, but suddenly this morning ate much less than he has been up to now.
He just wanted to go into his little shelter and rest.
I'm not sure if he's still in shock from the Vet visit, or has gotten sicker.
Praying this oral med. works.


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## Kasia

Antibiotics usually suppress apetite so I would say it's normal. Give him the whole course and then wait a week or two to see if he gets back to his old self again. I keep my fingers crossed for him


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## zovick

This has been stated earlier in the thread, but I would like to reiterate that Baytril injections are very painful to tortoises. They also cause necrosis of the tissue at the injection site. Before this was widely known, back in the early 1990's a large number of Indian Stars (100+) were confiscated and sent to the Bronx Zoo. I was affiliated with the zoo back then and got to watch numerous Baytril injections given prophylactically to the Stars by the vets to be sure the tortoises didn't have any diseases. Without fail, after the injections, the tortoises would writhe in pain for several minutes and frequently would not use the leg into which the injection had been given for a couple of days. Therefore, if the oral Baytril is not effective on your tortoise, I strongly recommend insisting that your vet use Fortax (ceftazidime) should any future injections be necessary. The Fortaz is injected less frequently (every 3 days) and also works better most of the time.

So you may notice your tortoise not feeling great for a couple of days following that injection.


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## Sterant

I can also tell you that many species have displayed similar problems following Baytril given both by injection and orally.
These include members of the Indotestudo group (I. elongata and I. travencorica), in Angulate tortoises, in Gapalagos tortoises as well as Indian Star tortoises as @zovick mentions above. The tortoise trust recommended that no tortoise be given Baytril as far back as 1996.


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## Meganolvt

I'd like to throw out there that at my clinic we use Baytil in turtles and tortoises (injectable as well as oral), and have never had any of the above problems with our patients. At this point, it sounds like pneumonia, bronchitis, or something similar, and Baytril will hopefully do the trick. I wouldn't stop giving it unless under the direction of your vet he is switched to a different antibiotic.


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## Sterant

Here is one example. I will try to find the text and include it here....


Casares, M. and F. Enders. 1996. Enrofloxacin side effects in a Galapagos tortoise (Geochelone elephantopus nigra). Proc. Am. Assoc. Zoo Vet 1996:446–448.


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## Sterant

Meganolvt said:


> I'd like to throw out there that at my clinic we use Baytil in turtles and tortoises (injectable as well as oral), and have never had any of the above problems with our patients. At this point, it sounds like pneumonia, bronchitis, or something similar, and Baytril will hopefully do the trick. I wouldn't stop giving it unless under the direction of your vet he is switched to a different antibiotic.


I'm happy to hear that however it doesn't always go that way.


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## Yvonne G

Meganolvt said:


> I'd like to throw out there that at my clinic we use Baytil in turtles and tortoises (injectable as well as oral), and have never had any of the above problems with our patients. At this point, it sounds like pneumonia, bronchitis, or something similar, and Baytril will hopefully do the trick. I wouldn't stop giving it unless under the direction of your vet he is switched to a different antibiotic.



It might just be that your clients neglected to inform you of the problem. also, they may not have realized that what they were seeing with the tortoise was caused by the Baytril.


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## Kasia

Yvonne G said:


> It might just be that your clients neglected to inform you of the problem. also, they may not have realized that what they were seeing with the tortoise was caused by the Baytril.


I'm that type of client...went with it once, didn't know what to expect...did it help? Of course it works...but with current knowledge on how animal looks after different types of injections would never agree on it again. 
My leo was so itchy afterwards that he scratched whole skin of his neck and back of his front legs. Literally. With those side effects it wouldn't pass any human trial. Not to mention being painful...


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## omhoge

Update on the Tortoise. Thank you all the Fortax vs. Baytril info. it is really great to hear, and good to have out here in the forum for other folks. (though a bit scary!)
Thanks to your first post I mentioned them and the Vet discussed it with me very openly. The plan is if the oral Baytril does not work, the injections will be Fortax every three days.

We are about halfway through the two week course of oral Baytril.
(I'll keep using it till we run out. If he starts showing signs you folks mention I'll go back to the vet.)

That first injection in the office was Baytril (also to teach me how). Fortunately his leg seemed ok.
The big change is a precipitous loss of appetite (which Kasia noted is a side effect of antibiotics).
I'd estimate he's eating 30-40% of what he was, he was eating heartily, so hopefully he started this phase of treatment better off.
Again his vitamin D was low and I'm continuing supplements and better UVB lighting.

I'd say I'm at a 60% success rate getting him to eat the medicated food. Roughly every other day he eats some.
Oranges are his favorite and I've had more success with them than watermelon.
Watermelon was easier, though, to inject the Baytril into after making a hole with a chopstick.

Two of the successful feedings were with "leftovers" where I kept and refrigerated the medicated food he ignored, hopefully without much medication loss.
I'm going to try preparing some orange tonight and let it sit, maybe that helps.
I'm also keeping the med., well shook up, refrigerated as well in case having it cool makes it more palatable

Once of habit I licked my fingers and I got a tiny taste of what he’s experiencing and though the medication smells slightly orange flavored, I can see why he’s avoiding it. It leaves a tangy chemical taste on the tongue When I used smaller orange chunks for easier eating I put the med. on top of them (as opposed to trying to putting it “in” chunks of food) and watched him try to eat it and be shocked and repelled at the taste. He ate those same chunks the next day, with a tiny bit of new orange pulp and tomato on top.

For the most part he seems about the same.
His primary symptom is labored breathing, the honking *may* be slightly less, though his soaks distress him and he honks then.
Sitting near him where he can see me while soaking seems to calm him down, but I never had to do that before.
There might be less tearing. No nasal discharge at all. Maybe less drooling, but also hard to tell. Extreme fatigue continues.
Mostly it's his breathing, and he's often trying to prop up his head and shell sitting at an angle with his head raised,
though just as often sprawled out, head out, kind of limp. Tending to hide in his little house, I angled the UVB light to shine on him a little bit when he's in there.

Your thoughts, prayers and crossed fingers are really appreciated.


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## Kasia

That's the thing with oral medication, not all you wish goes in . I hope he gets well after this course of meds. I keep mine fingers crossed for him


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## omhoge

Shortly after my last post our tortoise got much worse and stopped eating and became almost completely immobile,
he left eye seemed sunken and stuck shut, and his breathing was faint and extremely labored.

I went right away to the vet and got the Flotaz injections. (I didn't even complete the Baytril)
We are now through three of the seven injections, one every three days.

After the first shot he started eating and became more active, the marked improvement seemed to continue with the second.

But my concern was re-triggered yesterday, 
after his third shot, he started mouth breathing, gasping, and honking a lot.

It seems he is getting worse again.
But he remains more active and is eating pretty well.
But honked almost continuously during his warm bath and was honking just now while walking around.

I know tortoises take a long time to heal, 
but is this relapsing a "normal" part of this process?


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## Kasia

Give meds time to work. Sometime it takes more then one course of antibiotics to see an improvement. So I would advise to be patient and hope for the best. Would it be possible for you to record and post a video of him while symptoms are showing? It would be educational for all forum members and maybe someone encountered similar case like yours and can trow couple more ideas on the table.


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## omhoge

Thank you, Kasia, for the encouragement. Its hard watching someone you love be so sick. I've tried to capture the symptoms on video, I agree it's a good idea, but have not been able to yet.

The big thing I did not realize was when he first started slightly "pumping" his head and front legs was that it could be so a serious matter, posts in the forum here said that was normal, but is was not in our tortoise's case. When we first got him his pneumonia symptoms were only wheezing, we hadn't seen signs until now.

(In lieu of a video)
The basic progression I now know to look out for is:
* Pumping of the Head and Limbs when breathing, especially if a new behavior.
* Stretching out of the neck and head.
* Sudden unexpected and debilitating fatigue after formerly normal activity (like pushing against your foot or chasing you)
* Mouth ever so slightly open from time to time when breathing.
* Tearing mild to extreme (which can also apply to a lot of things)
* Yawn like gaping when trying to breathe
* Continuous Mouth Breathing
* Drooling
* Honking
* Complete Loss of Appetite (which can also apply to a lot of things)
* Change in sleeping position, head and feet hanging limp when resting
* Trying to prop up their head or front half of their body.
* Eye or Eyes appearing sunken or stuck closed
* Near to Complete Immobility and Unresponsiveness.
* Nasal Discharge or Bubbling (at this point it is a Critical condition, get to a vet, fortunately we didn't get to this point)

Find a Vet who really knows tortoises. I went through four to find our current doctor.

Don't be afraid of injections like we were, even if needles scare the poo out of you.
At least for our tortoise, after the first one, they are not as traumatic as expected. Have someone hold the animal for you if you're not used to it. Be prepared: though you don't have to put the needle in all the way, they will pull back hard when it goes in.

Prepping everything, assembling the syringe, little dish of alcohol and swab to wipe, tapping the syringe and pressing out the air, all before your helper grabs the tortoise makes getting it over with much faster and you may have a few squirm-free seconds to get it in. We put a towel over his head when we do it. Stay very focused, the needle is very sharp. The Nurse showed me to inject in the lower muscle of the front legs, alternating legs with each shot. All the videos on YouTube show targeting the more inward pectoral muscle, I'm doing it I was as shown, that method seems to take more skill, you risk only injecting under the skin, and you have to hold the leg much farther out which would be tougher in our case. It may be great for more experienced shooters.

I hope this regret-filled outline helps. I'll try and get a video.
We have three more shots to go in this series. So far, not a lot of improvement since my last post.

skol - omhoge


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## omhoge

We will be finishing off the course of Flotaz in a few days. Our tortoise is still having major trouble breathing.
The Vet is going to have us switch to another antibiotic named Amikacin next.

I don't know anything about it yet, but at least it is not Baytril.


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## omhoge

So the desktop reference says 
Amikacin (amiglyde sulfate) Highly nephrotoxic - give with SC/IC fluids.

Has anyone uses Amikacin, and did you also have to give your pet fluid injections or was the usual fresh drinking water and soaking enough?
I'm picking up the Amikacin Monday, it's pretty clear he's stopped responding to the Flotaz.


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## Kasia

I read that description as well and I guess that additional soaking yes but maybe it needs more than that... sc fluids flush the system more effective probably so it will not cumulate. I never administered to my tortoise this drug so it's just a thought. Ask your Vet and tell him about your concerns so he will not get his kidneys fried during treatment.


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## omhoge

Thank you* Kasia*!. Even with those risks, I honestly cannot wait for the Amikacin to come in so I can pick it up and switch to it. He's started making gurgling sounds, still eating and moderately active, and though the Flotaz may have slowed the progression it has not cured his illness and he's not getting better yet. But he's fighting it! thank you!


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## domalle

omhoge said:


> Thank you* Kasia*!. Even with those risks, I honestly cannot wait for the Amikacin to come in so I can pick it up and switch to it. He's started making gurgling sounds, still eating and moderately active, and though the Flotaz may have slowed the progression it has not cured his illness and he's not getting better yet. But he's fighting it! thank you!



Tortoises are resilient creatures. Regrettably, the symptoms described indicate a severely compromised animal. While recovery from such a state
is hoped, the percentages are not great. Thirty or so years in captivity for any tortoise is an accomplishment and a testament to the special care
and love you provided. And hingebacks taken from the wild have always been a challenge.

When labored breathing, rasping sounds and open-mouth gaping are displayed, some form of pneumonia is strongly indicated. When a tortoise
props its head up against the walls of its enclosure, it is congested, obstructed and desperately trying to draw breath.

Zovick's reputation and expertise are widely recognized in the herpetological community. He is a pioneer in the care and culture of tortoises
in this country and is accorded the utmost respect. If he is willing to consult with you on this, I would take him up on it.

The love you have poured into this animal, especially now in its distress, is clear. And admirable. 
Hoping for the best. Good luck.


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## omhoge

The Amikacin order came in early and we were able to start him on it Sunday, it is a five injection course, his second shot it tonight.
He's still eating and relieving himself normally, so we're giving him extra wet foods like watermelon while on the Amikacin. 
The breathing difficulties continue, he's subdued but still active.

Thank you domalle for you well wishes.
Zovick gave us great feed back on the Flotaz vs. Baytril.
I'm very open to further suggestions.

Zovick do you have anything else you can suggest?

thank you everyone!


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## Kasia

@zovick any suggestions?


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## Taco*mom

So many valuable lesson to learn from this thread. Hopefully your tortoise will get better soon. Thank you for sharing. And thanks to our senior members as well.


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## zovick

omhoge said:


> The Amikacin order came in early and we were able to start him on it Sunday, it is a five injection course, his second shot it tonight.
> He's still eating and relieving himself normally, so we're giving him extra wet foods like watermelon while on the Amikacin.
> The breathing difficulties continue, he's subdued but still active.
> 
> Thank you domalle for you well wishes.
> Zovick gave us great feed back on the Flotaz vs. Baytril.
> I'm very open to further suggestions.
> 
> Zovick do you have anything else you can suggest?
> 
> thank you everyone!



I have been away for a week, hence no posts.

All I can say is that I would make certain your tortoise is very well hydrated if you are using Amikacin. I have never used it personally. Tortoises do not do well on nephrotoxic drugs in my opinion. There was one called Gentocin years ago which killed a number of reptiles before it was learned that it crystallized in their kidneys. My feeling is that if the Fortaz didn't help your tortoise, there is very likely no drug that will cure the tortoise. Hopefully, I am wrong.

How is it doing today?


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## zovick

omhoge said:


> The Amikacin order came in early and we were able to start him on it Sunday, it is a five injection course, his second shot it tonight.
> He's still eating and relieving himself normally, so we're giving him extra wet foods like watermelon while on the Amikacin.
> The breathing difficulties continue, he's subdued but still active.
> 
> Thank you domalle for you well wishes.
> Zovick gave us great feed back on the Flotaz vs. Baytril.
> I'm very open to further suggestions.
> 
> Zovick do you have anything else you can suggest?
> 
> thank you everyone!



Does your apparent cessation of posts on this thread indicate bad news? IE, the tortoise has expired?


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## omhoge

What happens when you hospitalize your tortoise? I'm sure there is more they can do in a Veterinary Hospital, what do they do that you can't do at home?

I don't know yet if we will have to do that, this illness is confounding. He seems better at times, then the symptoms return. Diet and activity are normal. We are continuing the Amikacin but I think I will have to take him in for a medical followup. I'm not sure what that will entail, I'm guessing a swab of his throat or lungs maybe.


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## omhoge

Thank you zovick. I did not see your posts until after I replied (and the email notifications didn't come). Happily he's still, eating, often scampering around, then resting with labored breathing.


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## omhoge

++ the labored breathing still entails gaping, sometimes drooling adn weeping. More pronounced after eating or baths. We're giving him very wet fruit, but keeping the baths short since it triggers the honking, over all the honking is less. He does not seem to be getting worse on the Amikacen, but not all the way better, he is still very congested.


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## omhoge

We are keeping strong hope while staying as informed and prepared as possible. I wish to God I had realized what was happening sooner, after 33 years to fail his care so thoroughly will be hard if things do not improve. 

Any information on Hospitalization would help to know if it's a viable choice. Any suggestions on easing his discomfort are also welcome. 

He was gaping last night and normal this morning and ate a lot. Our vet is out of town next week, I've scheduled a visit for next Thursday with the covering doctor in case things worsen. 

The priority is to continue the best care possible and treat him especially well. We have four more Amikacen injections. What happens after that remains to be determined.

Thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge and support. This forum is real a help.


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## omhoge

zovick, sorry, I should have mentioned: he did respond to the Fortaz up to a point. It definitely pulled him back from the brink after the oral meds and he'd gotten worse to the point of imobility. Since he was not fully recovered after the 6 Fortaz shots the Vet opt'd to switch to Amikacin.


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## zovick

omhoge said:


> zovick, sorry, I should have mentioned: he did respond to the Fortaz up to a point. It definitely pulled him back from the brink after the oral meds and he'd gotten worse to the point of imobility. Since he was not fully recovered after the 6 Fortaz shots the Vet opt'd to switch to Amikacin.



Well, I hope it works out well for you and your tortoise. Good luck!


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## omhoge

Thank you so much zovick, I really appreciate your help and well wishes! We're definitely keeping his fluids up and the environment humid. 
It's a real ebb and flow with his condition, he had some difficulty after eating dinner, then he became active and had a good night tonight. 
I'll probably have more questions, and will add key updates as they come along. 

I spoke with a nurse at the veterinary clinic about hospitalization, and besides a controlled environment and they do any injections, one of the main things they do is tube feed animals who have stopped eating. He's still eating tons, and if he were to stop eating I'd have to consider the quality-of-life aspect of him being fed that way. He'll probably see the vet again in the next ten days.

we'll see what tomorrow brings...


----------



## omhoge

"tomorrow" brought more news and the roller coaster ride continues.

We went back to the vet. 

They did a front on X-ray. 

His lungs are completely clear, (big dark areas, clear and full of air in the picture)
so it is not pneumonia. 

It may be some sort of upper respiratory condition.

I was concerned his 'glands' behind the jaw were swelling, but the vet said from what she could see they were not,
so it must have been him puffing his throat trying to breathe.

The vet said it could be another kind of bacterial infection (the name escapes me now, I think it started with an F).
They took an oral swab to test for that bacteria, it may take a week for the results to come back.

The vet also mentioned a CT scan of his throat, that would not only require leaving him and having him transported to another hospital with
that equipment, but would mean sedation and he is not a good candidate for that right now.

The plan for now is to greatly increase his baths, to finish the Amikacin,
then see what the latest test results show and form a new strategy based on that.

He's still eating pretty normally, subdued but active, occasionally seemingly normal, then having the troubled breathing symptoms: gaping, drooling, honking, etc.


----------



## omhoge

The Veterinarians wrote me last night. His mycoplasma test came back negative. 
I was almost hoping it would be positive so we'd have a solid diagnosis and treatment plan.

They mentioned two possible tests next. Unfortunately the test I think would yield the most useful information,
an endoscopy of his upper respiratory tract and bacterial culture, 
would require sedation, with his breathing difficulties I feel any anesthesia is too risky.

The other test would be a CT Scan, but I'm not sure if they can do that without anesthesia, 
and I would rather take him to the affiliated hospital myself rather than leave him there for them to do the transport.
I'm waiting for answers on that now.

I guess hospitalization will come up too, but if all they can offer is forced feeding, 
then I'm not sure it's the right thing to do for him.

After his shot last night he had a worse honking episode because it upset him more than usual.
I held him and petted him until he calmed down and his breathing became more normal, 
he finally got drowsy and I put him in his pen.

This morning he is better than last night, he's still looking for ways to prop his head up, 
but not honking.


----------



## RACCOON EGGS

Any updates?


----------



## omhoge

Thank you, *RACCOON EGGS*, for asking. No news yet. Not much change, but not any worse either.

CT Scan is scheduled later in the week, I'll only let them do it if it is without sedation. 
Looks like the bacterial culture of his in his upper airways or mouth, if they can ever do it at all,
has to wait till he's off the antibiotics a few days. His last Amikacen shot is tomorrow.

He's still eating, the periodic difficult breathing episodes continue, he only honked a little in his bath and shortly after.
His eyes stopped watering after the bath too. 

He walked around for a while, staying where he could see us.
After some petting he got drowsy and he is resting quietly in his pen now for the night.


----------



## RACCOON EGGS

Well good news that he is not getting any worse and that more tests can be done without sedation. Keep us posted on what happens and good luck!!!


----------



## Melis

omhoge said:


> The Veterinarians wrote me last night. His mycoplasma test came back negative.
> I was almost hoping it would be positive so we'd have a solid diagnosis and treatment plan.
> 
> They mentioned two possible tests next. Unfortunately the test I think would yield the most useful information,
> an endoscopy of his upper respiratory tract and bacterial culture,
> would require sedation, with his breathing difficulties I feel any anesthesia is too risky.
> 
> The other test would be a CT Scan, but I'm not sure if they can do that without anesthesia,
> and I would rather take him to the affiliated hospital myself rather than leave him there for them to do the transport.
> I'm waiting for answers on that now.
> 
> I guess hospitalization will come up too, but if all they can offer is forced feeding,
> then I'm not sure it's the right thing to do for him.
> 
> After his shot last night he had a worse honking episode because it upset him more than usual.
> I held him and petted him until he calmed down and his breathing became more normal,
> he finally got drowsy and I put him in his pen.
> 
> This morning he is better than last night, he's still looking for ways to prop his head up,
> but not honking.


Follow your gut. I hospitalized my 11 year old sulcata after a bunch of ups and downs on her treatment of a bladder stone. They incubated her, soaked her multiple times a day, and continued the tube feeding through her feeding tube (which I had also been doing at home). She passed at the vets, which may have been inevitable. But the guilt that comes along with it sucks. Listen to your instincts and make sure you share them with the vet. I hope you get to the bottom of this soon.


----------



## omhoge

Thank you Melis, following your gut is the best advice. And yes, the guilt sucks, bad, I hope you're finding comfort in knowing you did the best you could and your turtle was happy while she was with you. 

Is that the feeding tube in your profile picture? 
I had a horrible image of them putting a tube down his throat and forcing food down him when they told me they did forced feeding.


----------



## Melis

omhoge said:


> Thank you Melis, following your gut is the best advice. And yes, the guilt sucks, bad, I hope you're finding comfort in knowing you did the best you could and your turtle was happy while she was with you.
> 
> Is that the feeding tube in your profile picture?
> I had a horrible image of them putting a tube down his throat and forcing food down him when they told me they did forced feeding.


Yes the feeding tube we had was surgically placed because she was going to be on it for awhile, but she had stopped eating. And it was a way to ensure she was receiving her medicine. I have read where they do forced feedings through their mouth, but it has to be done carefully as to avoid the turtle aspirating. Please keep us updated!


----------



## RACCOON EGGS

Have the tests been run yet?


----------



## omhoge

The CT Scan was done last week, we are still waiting for the results. Thanks for checking in, Raccoon Eggs.


----------



## omhoge

The CT scan showed a possible abdominal mass, but nothing in the sinuses or lungs and confirms what we knew: that it's not pneumonia.
In speaking to the vet covering for ours, the possible mass does not explain the upper respiratory difficulties.
It took most of our remaining resources for his care, we a have visit his with his vet tomorrow and hopefully she can still find something.


----------



## no one

Hoping for the best!! And I really aplaud all the effort!!


----------



## omhoge

Thank you so much debora. He's been such a good turtle for so many years, hoping for the best as well.


----------



## omhoge

It turns out the CT was very useful, a Vet with less experience might not have pushed for it 
and just continued looking for some sort of pneumonia. It is not pneumonia or herpes.

The CT scan showed he has a large mass in the left side of his body cavity, 
most likely cancer but could be a cyst or granuloma.

I wanted to share this unfortunate but important discovery: 
*** From the outside of a tortoise, a tumor can display symptoms identical to pneumonia. ***

The only point in doing a surgical biopsy of the mass at this point would be if we were considering removal.
Given the size and location, that would probably require opening the plastron and reattaching the piece after, 
this would be extreme and chances of survival are low.

The Vet took an oral culture and ordered a broad bacterial test to rule out any secondary infection we could treat.
We're probably going to try a bronchial dilator to see if it helps his breathing.

He is still eating well and pooping normally and has periods of his usual activity. 
We're basically going into hospice mode now. 
The Vet said the main sign for him indicating he's in pain and nearing the end would be his stopping eating completely. 
He may stay around with us for weeks or months, we're going to keep him near us, comfortable, 
and shamelessly indulge him with his favorite foods and activities.


----------



## zovick

omhoge said:


> It turns out the CT was very useful, a Vet with less experience might not have pushed for it
> and just continued looking for some sort of pneumonia. It is not pneumonia or herpes.
> 
> The CT scan showed he has a large mass in the left side of his body cavity,
> most likely cancer but could be a cyst or granuloma.
> 
> I wanted to share this unfortunate but important discovery:
> *** From the outside of a tortoise, a tumor can display symptoms identical to pneumonia. ***
> 
> The only point in doing a surgical biopsy of the mass at this point would be if we were considering removal.
> Given the size and location, that would probably require opening the plastron and reattaching the piece after,
> this would be extreme and chances of survival are low.
> 
> The Vet took an oral culture and ordered a broad bacterial test to rule out any secondary infection we could treat.
> We're probably going to try a bronchial dilator to see if it helps his breathing.
> 
> He is still eating well and pooping normally and has periods of his usual activity.
> We're basically going into hospice mode now.
> The Vet said the main sign for him indicating he's in pain and nearing the end would be his stopping eating completely.
> He may stay around with us for weeks or months, we're going to keep him near us, comfortable,
> and shamelessly indulge him with his favorite foods and activities.



Very sorry to hear this. Hopefully the mass is benign and slow growing. I pray your tortoise will not suffer any more than he already has and can enjoy his remaining days in your care.


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## RACCOON EGGS

So sorry.


----------



## no one

I was afraid for cancer. So sorry!! Hope you can keep him comfortable for some time. My thoughts are with you...


----------



## JoesMum

omhoge said:


> It turns out the CT was very useful, a Vet with less experience might not have pushed for it
> and just continued looking for some sort of pneumonia. It is not pneumonia or herpes.
> 
> The CT scan showed he has a large mass in the left side of his body cavity,
> most likely cancer but could be a cyst or granuloma.
> 
> I wanted to share this unfortunate but important discovery:
> *** From the outside of a tortoise, a tumor can display symptoms identical to pneumonia. ***
> 
> The only point in doing a surgical biopsy of the mass at this point would be if we were considering removal.
> Given the size and location, that would probably require opening the plastron and reattaching the piece after,
> this would be extreme and chances of survival are low.
> 
> The Vet took an oral culture and ordered a broad bacterial test to rule out any secondary infection we could treat.
> We're probably going to try a bronchial dilator to see if it helps his breathing.
> 
> He is still eating well and pooping normally and has periods of his usual activity.
> We're basically going into hospice mode now.
> The Vet said the main sign for him indicating he's in pain and nearing the end would be his stopping eating completely.
> He may stay around with us for weeks or months, we're going to keep him near us, comfortable,
> and shamelessly indulge him with his favorite foods and activities.



Oh dear. This happened to Joe in March and he had to be put to sleep. 

I am so sorry to hear this. I know exactly how you feel. Please accept my electronic hugs.


----------



## Kasia

omhoge said:


> It turns out the CT was very useful, a Vet with less experience might not have pushed for it
> and just continued looking for some sort of pneumonia. It is not pneumonia or herpes.
> 
> The CT scan showed he has a large mass in the left side of his body cavity,
> most likely cancer but could be a cyst or granuloma.
> 
> I wanted to share this unfortunate but important discovery:
> *** From the outside of a tortoise, a tumor can display symptoms identical to pneumonia. ***
> 
> The only point in doing a surgical biopsy of the mass at this point would be if we were considering removal.
> Given the size and location, that would probably require opening the plastron and reattaching the piece after,
> this would be extreme and chances of survival are low.
> 
> The Vet took an oral culture and ordered a broad bacterial test to rule out any secondary infection we could treat.
> We're probably going to try a bronchial dilator to see if it helps his breathing.
> 
> He is still eating well and pooping normally and has periods of his usual activity.
> We're basically going into hospice mode now.
> The Vet said the main sign for him indicating he's in pain and nearing the end would be his stopping eating completely.
> He may stay around with us for weeks or months, we're going to keep him near us, comfortable,
> and shamelessly indulge him with his favorite foods and activities.


Thank you for this update, I think not many keepers would persist on finding out the diagnosis like you did. Still very sad news, hopefully he will have couple more happy days/weeks/months with you. Spoil him as much you can


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## omhoge

Thank you Kasia. Now that we know, we're taking him with us again and he had a **Great Weekend** in his room upstate;
ate a lot and was quite active, he even played "Ram-man" with my foot for a while.
The symptoms continue, come and go in intensity, there will be good days and not so good ones.
I think his hinge back is helping too, just a hair more breathing room.

We're still waiting for the bacteria tests, and the bronchial medication is due in today, 
hopefully I can get him to eat it. They mostly do meat flavors, not many fruit options, so I chose 
strawberry. That's one of his favorites and maybe this will taste close enough to the real thing.

He's about as spoiled as a turtle can be, and we'll keep spoiling him as long as we can.
At this point he can even poop on the rug if he wants to.


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## no one

Don't know what to say... thinking of you guys.


----------



## Kasia

omhoge said:


> Thank you Kasia. Now that we know, we're taking him with us again and he had a **Great Weekend** in his room upstate;
> ate a lot and was quite active, he even played "Ram-man" with my foot for a while.
> The symptoms continue, come and go in intensity, there will be good days and not so good ones.
> I think his hinge back is helping too, just a hair more breathing room.
> 
> We're still waiting for the bacteria tests, and the bronchial medication is due in today,
> hopefully I can get him to eat it. They mostly do meat flavors, not many fruit options, so I chose
> strawberry. That's one of his favorites and maybe this will taste close enough to the real thing.
> 
> He's about as spoiled as a turtle can be, and we'll keep spoiling him as long as we can.
> At this point he can even poop on the rug if he wants to.



Greatest expression of tortoise feelings - pooped rug and a trail of pee showing you where your beloved pet is waiting for food  LOL


----------



## RACCOON EGGS

How is he doing?


----------



## omhoge

Hello RACCOON EGGS, thank you for checking in. Our tortoise has been stable in his "new normal". He is still eating and pooping well, with only two not-so-good days in the past 17 days. 

The bacterial cultures showed "Serratia Marcesens", which I'm told is an opportunistic bacteria that can cause respiratory infections in reptiles, but we suspect it may be a remnant after the long course of antibiotics he went through and that cleared up his sever resperatory symptoms a few weeks ago. We have a standing script for Fortaz if he worsens and starts showing signs of infection. His current respiratory issues are most likely not a true infection, but secondary to the internal mass. 

The oral expectorant seems to help when I can him to eat it. He's been having mood swings with his food preferences, so I often have to offer a second option, specially for breakfast, but he's eating up two to three times a day. Daily warm soaks. And if I get the timing right the poop happens in the bath not on the rug.

He's resting a lot, dozing or keeping an eye on us, then getting moderately to crazy active to come out and run around or hang out and have his head scratched. He's such a good turtle.


----------



## omhoge

Our tortoise is still at it! He's had a great two weeks since I last checked in with you all.
There have been only two not-so-good days, and he seemed to take them in stride.

Most evenings he's been active, running around or climbing on our feet,
or just coming to his spot by the sofa for some head scratching.
Then he seems to tire out. 
The honking happens occasionally, usually in his bath, 
but sometimes when he's out in the room, I'm trying to figure out if it's related to humidity or just happening.

The expectorant seems to help, but being an oral med with just a few drops on his food,
it's often hard to tell how much is getting into him. I plan to refill that script.

There has been no sign of the respiratory infection returning,
and the Vet is still keeping the Flotaz prescription open in case it does.

I guess we're in a slow growth period with the mass inside him for now.
The shameless spoiling of him continues wholeheartedly.

Thank you all, your support and prayers are a big help.


----------



## RACCOON EGGS

Still doing good?


----------



## omhoge

I was just thinking I should check in with you all when your message arrived, thank you Raccoon Eggs!

He's still much the same, but worsening very gradually. Eating well, occasionally getting feisty, but I can tell, albeit slow, it's getting worse. 
Still more good days than not so good ones, and his weeping episodes are still brief. No where near as bad as when he had active pneumonia.

It's really good to have found this forum. Most folks don't understand how you could love a turtle so much.
All your support and prayers are very appreciated.


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## RACCOON EGGS

Once again I am back. Still doing good?


----------



## omhoge

I warned the turtle yesterday that he's lived so much longer than I expected, I can't let him off from toenail clipping any longer.

He's declining, definitely. We're going to do a course of antibiotics to stave off any recurrence of pneumonia since he still has the bacteria in his system and his health is compromised now. The vet was great and called in a script for a full vial of fortaz so I can do a second course later if I need to.

I didn't know I would have to "reconstitute" it myself. A ton of small single syringe transfers of the fluid later, 
(and only once did the plunger fly up and out from the pressure of it reconstituting itself) I prefilled the syringes for the course.

He's still eating and pooping, and being a picky eater, more than once I've had to offer him an alternative meal.
Today he completely turned up his beak at his breakfast with greens in it, and it was almost all eaten when I got home from work.

We spoiling him for as long as we can.


----------



## RACCOON EGGS

Still doing good?


----------



## omhoge

Remarkably, he is still with us and we all had a Happy New Year's together. He's gotten very picky about his food and now will only eat his Treat Foods, but he will take them with very finely chopped dark greens mixed in. He had a bad 24 hours during the holiday, but was much better the following days. I think whatever it was, the antibiotics cleared it out for now.

Like most folks in the Eastern States lately, the main priority is keeping the room and enclosure warm during the subzero temperatures.
Overall he seems comfortable, but very tired. Less honking and gaping the past few weeks. Continued mouth breathing.
He still gets active, but more often now falls asleep when I hold him and rub his neck.

A friend who recently lost a pet gave me a very helpful idea
"Keep track of the Good Days and the Bad Days on a wall calendar, then when the time comes the writing will literally be 'On the Wall'.".
I already had a calendar to keep track of the injections and a couple weeks ago started noting when, what and how much he eats,
and any episodes or new symptoms.

I've almost given up on the oral expectorant, he hasn't been eating it even on the Treat Foods.
Since the recent antibiotics he may not need it as much anyway, I hope.
Will have a call with his nurse this week to discuss it all, and to learn more about options for euthanasia if we have to go that route.


----------



## vladimir

sending tortoise hugs


----------



## omhoge

Thank you Vladimir. He had a good weekend and Martin Luther King day and ate a lot. He's getting more tired lately, and is sleeping a lot.


----------



## RACCOON EGGS

Good to hear he still has an appetite.


----------



## omhoge

He's actually been eating more lately! It's so confounding sometimes; the other day he had a pretty bad morning and I thought "this is it, time to start planing the end" then when I got home from work he was completely back to his "new normal" no signs of congestion or anything else new. Over the weekend he was much more active, walking all over the place and trying his best to get stuck in narrow spots he hasn't visited in weeks.

I had a long talk with his nurse, like most things with tortoises some extra time is needed to form any opinion. She said to give any of the final warning signs three days to repeat. (Baring of course extremely bad stuff.). At least now we've got everything planned out for when that time comes, whenever that may be.

The injections I was so afraid of do not seem to bother him at all, and the antibiotics are definitely helping him a lot at this point.


----------



## vladimir

that's great to hear! We've been thinking about him.

(does he have a name, by the way?  sorry if I missed it )


----------



## omhoge

Thank you so much for keeping him in your thoughts, vladimir.
Honestly 99% of the time we call him "The Turtle" or if speaking to him directly "Turtle!" I kid you not.
Please forgive me for being very shy about mentioning any real names in public forums, though I'll feel duty bound to when the time comes for his obit.


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## vladimir

Awww. I completely understand. No worries


----------



## omhoge

Thanks for understanding. You've caught in a sentimental moment, Vlad, I just really miss him chasing me around. I'd tap my foot and he'd come running in that funny way turtles do, and would chase me all over the place. But he *is* still around, isn't in discomfort, and I'm very grateful to him and for him. 
He ate a ton today. Hoping for a big poop at bath time tonight.


----------



## vladimir

omhoge said:


> Thanks for understanding. You've caught in a sentimental moment, Vlad, I just really miss him chasing me around. I'd tap my foot and he'd come running in that funny way turtles do, and would chase me all over the place. But he *is* still around, isn't in discomfort, and I'm very grateful to him and for him.
> He ate a ton today. Hoping for a big poop at bath time tonight.


Yep, enjoy the little things [emoji16]


----------



## omhoge

I teased The Turtle yesterday that he is quickly catching up to Sarah Bernhardt as Camille for the longest running death scene on record.

He really freaked me out last week, he stopped eating for a few days and was very lethargic, and I dreamt of him which is unusual. 
Then suddenly he started eating a lot and walking around a bit without the signs of mucus or congestion. Just the mouth breathing.
I was about to make the final call, then he ended up having a very good week and weekend and was a lot more active. 

He is also more likely to eat if I hold him and pet him awake before putting him by his food.

The antibiotics and expectorant are definitely helping to ease the symptoms and keep him comfortable. 
I've been giving him the expectorant directly into his mouth as needed. I'm still amazed at what he lets me get away with. 
But it's much more reliable than putting it on his food.

He's started getting little black dots on his head and neck which I attribute to the cancer. We found a cremation place that specializes in pets.
He keeps rallying every time I think 'this is it', I cannot predict how much longer he'll stay around, and am really glad I didn't jump the gun last week.


----------



## vladimir

omhoge said:


> I teased The Turtle yesterday that he is quickly catching up to Sarah Bernhardt as Camille for the longest running death scene on record.
> 
> He really freaked me out last week, he stopped eating for a few days and was very lethargic, and I dreamt of him which is unusual.
> Then suddenly he started eating a lot and walking around a bit without the signs of mucus or congestion. Just the mouth breathing.
> I was about to make the final call, then he ended up having a very good week and weekend and was a lot more active.
> 
> He is also more likely to eat if I hold him and pet him awake before putting him by his food.
> 
> The antibiotics and expectorant are definitely helping to ease the symptoms and keep him comfortable.
> I've been giving him the expectorant directly into his mouth as needed. I'm still amazed at what he lets me get away with.
> But it's much more reliable than putting it on his food.
> 
> He's started getting little black dots on his head and neck which I attribute to the cancer. We found a cremation place that specializes in pets.
> He keeps rallying every time I think 'this is it', I cannot predict how much longer he'll stay around, and am really glad I didn't jump the gun last week.


Thanks for the update! I'm glad he's doing as well as can be expected


----------



## RACCOON EGGS

Thank you for the update. You are doing an amazing job caring for him and keeping him comfortable.


----------



## omhoge

Thank you for saying that, Raccoon Eggs. But what else could I do?
He's been our beautiful turtle for more than half my life. 

I've learned so much from him.
Not the least of which is never to temp him to his food by wiggling a finger over it, 
because he may think it's a worm and take a taste of it later when you're asleep on the sofa.


----------



## orv

I just discovered this wonderful saga about "The Turtle" and his epic struggle to live. I too am a cancer survivor (×2), with a strong will to keep going. Your love and care for Turtle rivals that of others on our forums, for which I am thankful. We lost our senior CDT, Tommy, during the winter of 2013 following more than 60 years in our family care. He simply failed to come out of hibernation. It was still difficult for us. Still, we have his mate of more than 40 years and son, now aged 44. Last summer we were blessed to be able to rescue two juvenile females from the Living Desert. I suppose that what I'm trying to convey is that as time goes by, and Turtle finally passes, you will have experienced and learned so much that you will be able to pass on to the caring for your next Turtle. Enjoy the life you have together for it passes so quickly. But indeed, life goes on. Thank you for all your sharing.


----------



## RACCOON EGGS

How are you doing?


----------



## omhoge

Raccoon Eggs, you must be psychic, I was just thinking of writing an update.

But first, thank you, orv. for sharing your stories and for your support. Hearing of both your cancer survival, and the loss of 
your 60 year shelled companion, Tommy, is comforting and helpful to know we're not lone in this kind of tortoise journey. 
I certainly know more than I did, and love this turtle more than ever.

The turtle started waking up early and looking for his food on his own. A sure sign Spring is near!

He's been having a great week, starting with a nice big poop in his bath. The congestion had been lees this week and he's been eating more too.
I can't say why but am keeping up the antibiotics, he's still mouth breathing but hasn't needed the expectorant this week.

The vet had to reschedule so I still have yet to get the black spots checked out.


----------



## omhoge

The Vet visit was good. 

The scab seems to be an understandable abrasion, probably worsened by his head pumping breathing. Because of the thickness the of clotting the medicine I was using probably was not getting to the open skin. She said she also sees this a lot in the Winter, though this one's been there a while. The black spots are just pigment changes and the graininess I felt was from the scab. The Vet cleaned the sore and gave me an antibiotic/anti-fungal cream to put on it every day… More Together Time! It did not seem cancerous to her, if it does not heal with the new cream in a couple weeks we’ll have to revisit it. 

I just have never had one like this happen before, the last one under his chin healed right up. The cream is a good idea to prevent any secondary infection. 
She said he seems the same to her as the last time: weight still good, mouth breathing, some congestion and tearing but not worse and he does not seem to be in discomfort. The turtle still felt plenty strong to them when they were working on him. 

He started bubbling there for the first time in weeks which she said could also be brought on by the trip up there and doctor visit stress. Her thought is the mass is growing slowly. You can never tell, but he may make it to the one year mark since his diagnosis!


----------



## vladimir

Glad to hear he had a good vet visit!

Thank you for the continued updates. We're all rooting for The Turtle


----------



## vladimir

@omhoge Thinking about you and Turtle


----------



## omhoge

It's amazing, it really is. The turtle has made it to the Spring Holidays and is doing better than he was a few months ago. 

My guess is the secondary infection has been beating back enough to give him a little more energy.
I've been debating giving him a break from the antibiotics, but they clearly seem to help him so much, I'm continuing them. 
The shots hardly bother him any more. He also tolerates the expectorant which I give as needed when he sounds congested. 
The neck sore is almost completely new skin, just the last phase now, applying ointment when it drys out.

He gets winded easily and has episodes of labored breathing. But he's still waking up early on his own early looking for food, 
and he had a nice big poop yesterday. He's been eating well, actually taking some corse greens in with his treat foods. 
He even did the ramming against my foot thing a little bit last week, which he hasn't done in months. 
He props himself up on his stones by himself when he needs to. Generally he rests, watches us from the corner, 
and seems more or less comfortable. 

Our dear old turtle is still declining, thankfully a bit more slowly these past couple weeks. 
I'm very grateful we have such a good a vet and pharmacy service.
Thank you, Vlad, and everyone for your thoughts, they help a lot.


----------



## RACCOON EGGS

Glad to hear he is still doing ok. It is so impressive he has made it this far! Keep up the good work and thanks for the update.


----------



## omhoge

As the weather finally warms up after this long bitterly cold early Spring the turtle is responding and getting much more active.
Like all of us, he's eager for Summer to really start.

We're continuing the antibiotic shots but I had to jump through some hoops to refill the Fortaz/Tazicef script.

It's apparently on a big back order and our normal pharmacy, Best Pet RX, could not get any or even a possible ship date.
Apparently the impact to the hurricane in Puerto Rico has also caused a national shortage of syringes.

The Best Pet RX agent did call around and finally found some Tazicef at the large Animal Hospital where we had his CAT Scan done,but they say they have to record of every examining him 
and would require he be brought and examined in order to get the medication from their pharmacy.

Thank goodness for his Vet and Nurse, they were able to stock Tazicef at the clinic's pharmacy and they even ordered me abox of the syringes so I don't have to worry about that part for a while. (I still have a bunch of extra needles for them,I change the needles after prepping the syringes so it's the sharpest possible point when going into reptile skin. I keep 6 - 8 syringes ready in the freezer so I don't have to thaw the whole bottle each time).
They don't deliver like Best Pet does so I had to go uptown to get them, but we spared the turtle a stressful hospital visit.

He's generally the same and doing pretty well, all things considered, occasionally congested and drooling, still eating well and pooping regularly.
The dry skin sore on his neck seemed to be recurring, but the Vet said it may take several shedding cycles for it to completely
go away; which makes sense since the sore is getting much smaller each time it shows up. I'm giving him soaks more often now,
and OTC Neosporin if the sore looks open, and zinc cream if the scab looks really dry and crunchy.
Its hard to apply since the spot is way up on his neck, so I have to pet and cajole him into letting me pull his neck out
far enough to dab it with my little finger.

He's been walking around a lot and revisiting all his favorite hiding spots, and finding good new ones to keep me
on my hands and knees looking for him.


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## vladimir

Glad to hear it


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## RACCOON EGGS

Good to hear he is still doing OK. Keep up the good work!


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## RACCOON EGGS

It has been a while since an update. How are you guys doing?


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## vladimir

I hope The Turtle is still doing well


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## omhoge

Hi Racoon Eggs and Vladimir, thank you so much for checking in!

I've thought a few times to post an update, but worried the daily details of long term illness get very boring very quick from the outside. 
We've had issues getting his meds and syringes, I don't understand how these things can "go on back order". But his vet has been remarkable 
finding alternative sources. And I did learn never to tell anyone in a turtle group who your vet. is, or you are likely to get the reply we did: 
"NOOOOOOOOO she is HORRRRIBLE! You HAVE to take him to my vet!" Never mind our positive experiences, his response to treatment, 
or the fact that "my vet" is over 200 miles away, we don't have a car, and just getting him there would stress him out tremendously. 
But I'm chalking that reply up to passion :~) 
We actually laughed out loud when we saw it and and been quoting that email a lot in the most dramatic voices we can muster.

The turtle had a great Spring and became more active The decline is continuing though, albeit slowly. He's getting progressively more tired and drools more. But he sure loves heat waves! And still has some active periods.

Remarkably he's still eating twice a day or more, pooping weekly, and peeing daily. 
Our most increased effort is keeping him very well hydrated, frequent baths, and he's often drinking from his water bowl on his own.
At least twice a week I find him out looking for his food before I deliver it and don't have to pet or cajole him before eating.

Though very lethargic, he seems more active on the weekends when we're around him more.
When we let him roam the room and he'll walk around, sometimes even seeking an open area where sun is shining on the floor, 
or setting himself near our feet or where we were just sitting. He is still an expert at hiding, but it feels like he wants to be where he can see us more now. If turtles even feel such urges, I like to think he does, but I'm probably projecting my own affection on him.

Thanks again for asking, I appreciate it.


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## RACCOON EGGS

Glad to hear he is doing well! Keep up the great work!


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## omhoge

The turtle had a nice upswing the last two weeks. He slept pulled in, which I haven't seen him do since he first took ill, and even played the foot pushing game. He's sliding back to his prior condition now and honking sometimes. But so far no worse than he was, and the upswing was very sweet despite the bitter reality of long term illness. There are no longer any objections from him with his meds, I still can't believe what he lets me do now. He's been eating even more during the Summer, and has pooped twice a week for the past couple. Poop..., how funny what we take comfort in late in life.


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## vladimir

@omhoge happy to hear it! I was actually just looking at this thread earlier to see if there were any updates.


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## TammyJ

Thanks for caring for this guy! And don't ever think that your long posts may be boring - we here are very interested in learning and sharing any information we may have or that may be given on our favourite creatures!


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## omhoge

Thank you, TammyJ! 

Well the turtle has been having a great last half of Summer. Lessened respiratory symptoms and increased activity and appetite.

I'm continuing the meds, after a short break the symptoms were returning so I started them up again.
The oddest thing is that the drooling and nasal bubbling happen after he chows down on red peppers. It's one of his favorites, I'm not sure yet if it's just from eating a lot, he eats just as much of other foods. I'm looking for a pattern there. 

My thoughts are turning to ways to keep him very warm and very hydrated when the seasons change. If nothing else, lots of warm baths.
I don't want to get our hopes up, but I think he'll see the one year mark since his diagnosis.


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## omhoge

*This week marks a year since the turtle was diagnosed with "a large tumor, most likely cancer".*

Though he still has issues, and major ups and downs, the difference from his nearly-dead posture a year ago is striking. 
Fighting back whatever the respiratory infection was, was the biggest step.

He's still on a decline and still on his meds, and I'm deeply grateful he's stuck around. 
We love this turtle so much, and after such a long time his behavior has definitely adapted to being with us. 
Even now I can't really imagine him not being here.

The key for giving him red peppers is to chop them smaller, I think because they're firmer they may be harder for him to swallow.
Mushrooms have become the go-to food to make sure he eats (used to be oranges), and he'll still gobble them up with finely chopped coarse greens.
And he's still pooping regularly. 

Thank you all so much for your interest and support! It has helped a lot knowing I'm not alone in this turtle-loving-madness.

*Excelsior!*


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## vladimir

awesome news


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## Arzu78

omhoge said:


> *This week marks a year since the turtle was diagnosed with "a large tumor, most likely cancer".*
> 
> Though he still has issues, and major ups and downs, the difference from his nearly-dead posture a year ago is striking.
> Fighting back whatever the respiratory infection was, was the biggest step.
> 
> He's still on a decline and still on his meds, and I'm deeply grateful he's stuck around.
> We love this turtle so much, and after such a long time his behavior has definitely adapted to being with us.
> Even now I can't really imagine him not being here.
> 
> The key for giving him red peppers is to chop them smaller, I think because they're firmer they may be harder for him to swallow.
> Mushrooms have become the go-to food to make sure he eats (used to be oranges), and he'll still gobble them up with finely chopped coarse greens.
> And he's still pooping regularly.
> 
> Thank you all so much for your interest and support! It has helped a lot knowing I'm not alone in this turtle-loving-madness.
> 
> *Excelsior!*



I just finished reading your story, the whole 6 pages, shedding happy tears for you guys, God Bless [emoji1317][emoji1317][emoji1317]


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## RACCOON EGGS

You have done such a great job taking care of him! What a lucky tort to have you!


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## omhoge

Arzu78, I cannot believe you read the whole 6 pages! I did a quick scan and golly I repeat myself a lot, I hope it helped you sleep well if nothing else. To be fully honest, I didn't post much of the bad days, which are there too. RACOON EGGS always looks so happy when the news is more positive, I couldn't help it.

I have more to think about now. That "mass" has me wondering, and when I wrote his nurse and vet about the one year mark, even the nurse said: "maybe it isn't cancer". Perhaps it *is *a cyst or some other benign tumor. He still has trouble breathing and anesthesia for a biopsy scares me. Removing it would surely involve opening his plastron and patching the piece back on. I don't think I could put him through that or if he'd even survive it.

Maybe I need to shift out of "hospice mode" thinking. I don't know. I cannot help but think those bad days will return. This past week he honked again for the first time in quite a while. The meds still very much seem to help, I'm shy of changing anything there either.

But you know..?, pondering his treatment is much better than making his funeral arrangements.

RACOON EGGS, really we're the lucky ones to have such a personable tortoise who's willing to stick out a few decades with us.


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## Arzu78

omhoge said:


> Arzu78, I cannot believe you read the whole 6 pages! I did a quick scan and golly I repeat myself a lot, I hope it helped you sleep well if nothing else. To be fully honest, I didn't post much of the bad days, which are there too. RACOON EGGS always looks so happy when the news is more positive, I couldn't help it.
> 
> I have more to think about now. That "mass" has me wondering, and when I wrote his nurse and vet about the one year mark, even the nurse said: "maybe it isn't cancer". Perhaps it *is *a cyst or some other benign tumor. He still has trouble breathing and anesthesia for a biopsy scares me. Removing it would surely involve opening his plastron and patching the piece back on. I don't think I could put him through that or if he'd even survive it.
> 
> Maybe I need to shift out of "hospice mode" thinking. I don't know. I cannot help but think those bad days will return. This past week he honked again for the first time in quite a while. The meds still very much seem to help, I'm shy of changing anything there either.
> 
> But you know..?, pondering his treatment is much better than making his funeral arrangements.
> 
> RACOON EGGS, really we're the lucky ones to have such a personable tortoise who's willing to stick out a few decades with us.



I hear you!!! These sullys are STRONG and RESILENT, when our Jack got sick, our vet wished he was older in order to be able to operate, that type of surgery is common, although it sounds “horrible” ... In the end I beleive you’ve got to go with your gut feeling, you are the one in the 24/7 situation, I think you will do the best for him ... I suffer my pets health issues as I did with my kids and do now with the grandkids, keeps me from sleeping when they’re sick [emoji30][emoji30][emoji30] Best of luck[emoji1317][emoji1317][emoji1317]


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## Cheryl Hills

Ask your vet if they can do a pet scan. Not sure if it would work on a tortious but it is used in humans to see if they have cancer. It may help your decision, if they can do it. Just a thought.


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## ShirleyTX

Dear omhoge,

I've just stumbled across your posts (I've read every word) and I will call it your Story Of Love. There is surely a place in heaven for a person who cares for an animal the way you are caring for The Turtle. I agree with others, the details are of interest and you must post as many of the details as you like.

I am fascinated by how attached he is to you, and how he responds to you. I also understand, I think, how attached you are to him. I love the idea of you petting his neck as he falls asleep. After many years of studying and wanting a tortoise, I finally got one four months ago. I hover over her as I would a newborn baby. For instance, I don't just track her poo, I break it apart to monitor how wet or dry it is. That's sounds insane to ME and I'm the one doing it LOL.

Anyway, I just want to say how I admire your turtle-keeping and I will have The Turtle in my thoughts from now on!

Shirley 
(one little 2 1/2 year old Egyptian tortoise)


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## TortMom6

I just found this thread and read it all! What you are doing for your beloved pet is absolutely amazing. The Turtle and you will be in my prayers.

Because of this story, I've decided to take all 3 of my shell babies in for regular vet visits, so that if anything ever happens to one of them I'll catch it early.

My Juliet (three-toed box turtle), Littlefoot (Leopard tortoise), and Gilbert Fitzwilliam (Greek tortoise) send their love and support to The Turtle and to you.

Thank you for sharing.


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## omhoge

Arzu78, thanks a million for the support and good wishes!

TortMom6, wow, I'm glad this long tail helped! I know so little about the bigger world of tortoises, I just know one particular one very well. And this forum has been a great help.

Cheryl Hills, thank you for that idea, I haven't heard of "pet scan" for cancer, I'll ask the vet. To be honest though, we're weighing visits to the vet very carefully, it causes the Turtle a lot of stress and it takes a couple days or more for him get back to normal.
After his one year mark, and an amazing and active Summer, I tried giving him a break from the antibiotic injections. But after a week his congestive mucus-y symptoms came back so I started them back up. In six days he was back where he was before the medication break. This week he needed his expectorant for the first time in a while.

ShirleyTX, congratulations on your new tortoise companion! You sound well on your way to being a very fine keeper! I still vividly remember the Turtle's first night with us when we adopted him and learned he likes red food after snatching up a toy barbie shoe we didn't notice on the floor but he went right after (forgive if I repeat myself). During the first couple years we had to learn when to hover and when to ignore him, specially to eat, now he prefers the attention very much (well, except when he wants to hide and spy on us). I can recall him playing the foot pushing game very early on (which is actually how they fight), but it took a long time to get where we are now. The first many times I tried to clip his nails or file his beak, it was like wrestling a kraken!

It's true, he's attached and very aware. After his first visit to a vet, not a great one for turtles like we have now and with loud dogs in the lobby, he was completely freaking out in the box, but as soon as we got to our door he heard Donna Summer blasting and smelled the incense for the holiday and completely settled down. He doesn't like incense really and we keep him away from it now, but that night it told him he was home. He also responds very differently to other people, somehow he knows who we are. I'm sure most everyone here has experiences like these, you cannot underestimate how aware and smart they are simply because their brains are smaller. (said with the accepted risk of over-anthropomorphizing )

Last night and this morning taking care of some recurred symptoms, I was reminded, *Yet Again*, how very different _*Time *_is for tortoises.
They can get sick very slowly, then get well very slowly, shed and grow and heal sores slowly, adjust to new locations gradually, and as we monitor things I have to mentally stretch out that time line and remind myself he operates at his pace and his time, not mine. If he has to be in a new room, I make sure to hold him like usual many times since that is a "place" he knows. The only thing he does quickly is change his mood, gobble orange, or find a new place to hide to make us search for him.


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## vladimir

Thanks for the update! Glad he's still doing well


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## Cheryl Hills

Many hugs for what you are doing for him! And for you!


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## Arzu78

omhoge said:


> Arzu78, thanks a million for the support and good wishes!
> 
> TortMom6, wow, I'm glad this long tail helped! I know so little about the bigger world of tortoises, I just know one particular one very well. And this forum has been a great help.
> 
> Cheryl Hills, thank you for that idea, I haven't heard of "pet scan" for cancer, I'll ask the vet. To be honest though, we're weighing visits to the vet very carefully, it causes the Turtle a lot of stress and it takes a couple days or more for him get back to normal.
> After his one year mark, and an amazing and active Summer, I tried giving him a break from the antibiotic injections. But after a week his congestive mucus-y symptoms came back so I started them back up. In six days he was back where he was before the medication break. This week he needed his expectorant for the first time in a while.
> 
> ShirleyTX, congratulations on your new tortoise companion! You sound well on your way to being a very fine keeper! I still vividly remember the Turtle's first night with us when we adopted him and learned he likes red food after snatching up a toy barbie shoe we didn't notice on the floor but he went right after (forgive if I repeat myself). During the first couple years we had to learn when to hover and when to ignore him, specially to eat, now he prefers the attention very much (well, except when he wants to hide and spy on us). I can recall him playing the foot pushing game very early on (which is actually how they fight), but it took a long time to get where we are now. The first many times I tried to clip his nails or file his beak, it was like wrestling a kraken!
> 
> It's true, he's attached and very aware. After his first visit to a vet, not a great one for turtles like we have now and with loud dogs in the lobby, he was completely freaking out in the box, but as soon as we got to our door he heard Donna Summer blasting and smelled the incense for the holiday and completely settled down. He doesn't like incense really and we keep him away from it now, but that night it told him he was home. He also responds very differently to other people, somehow he knows who we are. I'm sure most everyone here has experiences like these, you cannot underestimate how aware and smart they are simply because their brains are smaller. (said with the accepted risk of over-anthropomorphizing )
> 
> Last night and this morning taking care of some recurred symptoms, I was reminded, *Yet Again*, how very different _*Time *_is for tortoises.
> They can get sick very slowly, then get well very slowly, shed and grow and heal sores slowly, adjust to new locations gradually, and as we monitor things I have to mentally stretch out that time line and remind myself he operates at his pace and his time, not mine. If he has to be in a new room, I make sure to hold him like usual many times since that is a "place" he knows. The only thing he does quickly is change his mood, gobble orange, or find a new place to hide to make us search for him.


One day at a time


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## omhoge

Apology for the delay. Cheryl Hills, I asked his nurse and unfortunately the PET scan is not available for animals. Thanks for the idea though.
Turtle is starting to show his usual seasonal slowness, though he's very warm, he still responds to the seasons some how. That added onto his general slow down scared me at first, but otherwise... well the same, a bit slower. He gets active in his bath every day, then that seems to tier him out till the next feeding time when I still often find him already looking for his food with that sideways "and where is it?" glare he gives when he beats me to the feeding corner.

onward!


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## Cheryl Hills

It was worth a shot. I sure hope he does good. You really care for him.


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## omhoge

This was quite a week and the Turtle gave me a scare. He had a rough weekend last week, Monday he was more congested than he's been in a while.
Besides his antibiotic, I made sure to give him his expectorant whenever his breathing sounded very wet or there was drooling or bubbling. It all helped, drooling and bubbling stopped, but he was super lethargic.

Then in his bath on Wednesday he went nuts. Scrambling against the bowl like he was finishing a marathon, and pooped like a rocket ship!
I lost count how many times I had to change the water, and his last poop was only a couple days ago. Absolutely nothing new in the diet either. 
Pen is plenty warm and humid. 

I think he just went on another symptom roller coaster ride. Since that manic bath he's been more active than he's been in a while.
I have no idea what super-charged his batteries. I wish I did. It's Winter and cold here, so him just being awake and a little active is what I hope for. 
Seeing him scamper and poop all over? 
It was pure Joy... really stinky Joy.


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## Kasia

I wish you both more joyful days ahead....


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## Cheryl Hills

omhoge said:


> This was quite a week and the Turtle gave me a scare. He had a rough weekend last week, Monday he was more congested than he's been in a while.
> Besides his antibiotic, I made sure to give him his expectorant whenever his breathing sounded very wet or there was drooling or bubbling. It all helped, drooling and bubbling stopped, but he was super lethargic.
> 
> Then in his bath on Wednesday he went nuts. Scrambling against the bowl like he was finishing a marathon, and pooped like a rocket ship!
> I lost count how many times I had to change the water, and his last poop was only a couple days ago. Absolutely nothing new in the diet either.
> Pen is plenty warm and humid.
> 
> I think he just went on another symptom roller coaster ride. Since that manic bath he's been more active than he's been in a while.
> I have no idea what super-charged his batteries. I wish I did. It's Winter and cold here, so him just being awake and a little active is what I hope for.
> Seeing him scamper and poop all over?
> It was pure Joy... really stinky Joy.


He sure is hanging in there!


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## TortMom6

omhoge said:


> This was quite a week and the Turtle gave me a scare. He had a rough weekend last week, Monday he was more congested than he's been in a while.
> Besides his antibiotic, I made sure to give him his expectorant whenever his breathing sounded very wet or there was drooling or bubbling. It all helped, drooling and bubbling stopped, but he was super lethargic.
> 
> Then in his bath on Wednesday he went nuts. Scrambling against the bowl like he was finishing a marathon, and pooped like a rocket ship!
> I lost count how many times I had to change the water, and his last poop was only a couple days ago. Absolutely nothing new in the diet either.
> Pen is plenty warm and humid.
> 
> I think he just went on another symptom roller coaster ride. Since that manic bath he's been more active than he's been in a while.
> I have no idea what super-charged his batteries. I wish I did. It's Winter and cold here, so him just being awake and a little active is what I hope for.
> Seeing him scamper and poop all over?
> It was pure Joy... really stinky Joy.


I'm really glad he's still doing well. It sucks he had some bad days, but I'm happy he perked up, even if it wasn't nasally pleasant. 
You might have posted the answer to this and I forgot. Did you ever get a firm diagnosis on The Turtle?

I hope you, your family, and The Turtle have a happy Christmas and a merry New Year. I'm wishing you many more good, happy, joy filled days together.


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## omhoge

Thank you, everyone, for your support and kind comments.

TortMom6, regarding a firm diagnosis: We're basically going with what they said last year, that it's a large mass. Any attempt to biopsy or remove it I just think would be too much for him. Even on his good days, I'd be really afraid of sedation for him. 

We'll all be together and Turtle will be with us as we ring in the New Year, something we didn't think we'd be doing a year ago. 
A Happy Healthy New Year to you, your family, torts, and to all the Turtle's supportive friends here on TortoiseForum!


----------



## Cheryl Hills

omhoge said:


> Thank you, everyone, for your support and kind comments.
> 
> TortMom6, regarding a firm diagnosis: We're basically going with what they said last year, that it's a large mass. Any attempt to biopsy or remove it I just think would be too much for him. Even on his good days, I'd be really afraid of sedation for him.
> 
> We'll all be together and Turtle will be with us as we ring in the New Year, something we didn't think we'd be doing a year ago.
> A Happy Healthy New Year to you, your family, torts, and to all the Turtle's supportive friends here on TortoiseForum!


And same to you!


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## ShirleyTX

Is Turtle doing okay? My dad always said “No news is good news; bad news travels fast.” So I’m hoping Turtle is chugging along.


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## omhoge

Hi, ShirleyTX, thank you for asking. I've been meaning to check in here.

The Turtle had a great holiday and New Years! I don't know if it was the festive spirit, or since we were all home, he was free to roam around his favorite room all the time, but he was a lot more active and less congested.

He had a slump last week and was gapping and honking for the first time in a while. He's been warm, so I don't think it was the Winter chill that hit us so hard.
But he's looked more dry lately and we've doubled his baths.

I've been watching him during and after eating as much as I can. And I don't think the nasal bubbling is related to the type or chopping size of the food after all.
It seems much more related to the voracity with which he eats. When he really gobbles his food, that is when his nose bubbles.

The antibiotics and expectorant are still clearly helping him. I had to reorder the expectorant and it more than doubled in price.
I was suspicious with the pharmacy and called his nurse. She said that this med. (guaifenesin) goes on back order a lot,
and when it does, if owners can get it at all, she's seen the price jump tremendously.

The same thing happened with syringes last year and I had a hard time getting any. How critical meds and instruments can go on back order at all is beyond me.
But wouldn't you know it, the same thing happened with one of my own human meds and it took over three weeks to get it again.

This morning he looked like he was feeling a lot better and I was almost late for work because of the endless poops in his bath.
It is humbling to think exactly a year ago this week, we were pondering if we should let him go. 

A New Year of riding this roller-coaster with him was the best gift of all!


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## Cheryl Hills




----------



## RACCOON EGGS

Quite amazing how long he has made it, what an awesome tort! You, as always, are doing a great job.


----------



## omhoge

Well, rollercoaster have their dips as well. 

Last weekend the Turtle had a bad episode which started during his bath.
He was as usual before, and I was trying to figure out: did he aspirate some water? was his dinner not chopped enough? did I let him get too warm?
All I could think to do was give him his cough syrup and keep him propped up. He had trouble into the night, then, come morning, he was back to his "new normal".
Part of this is learning to accept sometimes I just can't know exactly what's happening inside him and the only option is to do my duty to keep him as comfortable as I can.

He's been more lethargic and eating less this week. He goes up with me to our little house today where he can roam his favorite room and always does better whenever he's there and gets more active every weekend. 
I got him to eat well this morning and told him to get packed today so we can rush up right after work.

Thank you so much Raccoon Eggs, and to all you folks who are rooting for the Turtle! He really is amazing, he's become so brave that doing the injections is almost easy... **almost!**.


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## omhoge

Perhaps a harbinger of Spring, or just a little shift of something inside, but the Turtle has been more active all of a sudden.

Every day this week he's come out looking for his food, or come to it when I put it down without the usual coaxing and manually positioning him by it. He's been very active in his bath, pooping well, and reaching up his head higher to look around than he has in a long time. 

The sore on his neck reappeared, then a few days later was gone again. Still trying to figure that one out, but it clearly does not pain him. He does not wince or pull in when I clean it. I've been using Neosporin, or a zinc sulfate cream from the vet. The the zinc cream was the last treatment before it closed again. He's been well hydrated, I'm starting to suspect it is cancer related. The shell edges are very smooth.

All I can say is: enjoy the upswings.


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## vladimir

Yay, glad to hear it! The Turtle is pretty amazing


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## omhoge

Finally it's Spring! The Turtle made it through our deep freezes unscathed. 
Most things continue the same. The main sign has been that he just seems more tired. 
He's been eating and pooping, he still walks around a bit and will find a spot and stay put, 
sometimes after his bath he'll just stay where I place him till it's time to eat again. 

Feeding often takes more time lately, he has gotten unpredictable in his pickiness.
Even if I give him what he gobbled down at the last feeding, he's just as likely to turn his beak up at it, 
and I have to make him a second choice meal.

He seems to know now when it's medication time, and won't like me touching his legs at all, 
usually he doesn't mind, but the actual injection itself doesn't seem to bother him once it's done. 

We're still in long term care mode, he generally seems comfortable, but less active.
I'll keep an lookout to see if he perks up as the season progresses.
Thanks to all his friends here for keeping him in your thoughts!


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## ShirleyTX

I’d like a photo of Turtle, if that’s possible? I admire his fortitude and I admire yours even more.


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## omhoge

Hi Shirely, thank you. Of course, I couldn't find the one l'd like to share, but I'll upload one from after a bath. 


He's actually walked out to his food a couple times since the season turned!

More active, still stationary most of the day but there's been an increase of him talking walks around his pen or room on the weekends when he's out most of the time.

This was the first year we observed World Turtle Day, and it was very special to have him with us.


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## vladimir

omhoge said:


> Hi Shirely, thank you. Of course, I couldn't find the one l'd like to share, but I'll upload one from after a bath.
> View attachment 273472
> 
> He's actually walked out to his food a couple times since the season turned!
> 
> More active, still stationary most of the day but there's been an increase of him talking walks around his pen or room on the weekends when he's out most of the time.
> 
> This was the first year we observed World Turtle Day, and it was very special to have him with us.


So nice to finally put such a cute face to the Turtle [emoji173]️


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## ShirleyTX

Thank you for sharing the Turtle with us. Your patience and dedication are truly an inspiration to all of us! I'd love a photo from time to time, if you have room for it in your schedule.


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## RACCOON EGGS

vladimir said:


> So nice to finally put such a cute face to the Turtle [emoji173]️


Thank you for sharing a picture, what a nice turtle!


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## KarenSoCal

Wow! I don't know how I've missed this thread for so long, but I just read all 146 posts.

What a marvelous story of love, dedication, and perseverance! With so much in today's world that tears us down, I feel lifted up and rejuvenated by this tale of a turtle, and the man who adores him.

Thank you!


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## omhoge

Thank you, everyone! KarenSoCal, it's been one of the lengthiest long-term relationships we've had. He's such a good turtle, though I swear he saves up so he can leave mess in the travel bag.

The Summer heat waves have been rough on his keepers, but The Turtle loves it. He's had a noticeable upswing.

He's walking around even more, and hasn't bubbled after eating in a few weeks. *Every* morning and evening he's been out at his food spot waiting before I can get his meal ready. When he's out, he's come to sit by our feet a few times before going to find a hiding spot.

In addition to the joyous poops, he's been more active and doing new stuff in his bath. He started streatching his neck out and lifing his head reallly high. Not gaping and seeming calm, I thought he was looking around, but I think he's actually sniffing around. The real surprise is several times now he's managed to climb up onto the edge of his bath basin and gotten his front legs over it. Either he's grown or his nails are gripping worn spots he's made in the basin over the years. 

He still tires out quickly, sometimes stopping in the middle of the floor, giving up on wherever he was going, and continues to drool. Every once in a while he'll gape after a very active bath. The honking hasn't happened much at all since Summer stated.

It's actually made the high heat and humidity welcomed.


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## ShirleyTX

I’m always a little apprehensive when I see an update to this thread. But The Turtle continues to demonstrate why turtles have survived for 200 million years. I am especially tickled at the thought of him with his front feet on the side of his bath.


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## RACCOON EGGS

Thanks for the update! Keep up the good work!


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## Cheryl Hills

Wow! What an amazing tort and tort mom!


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## omhoge

It's been a rough week. The turtle was doing so amazingly better, last week I thought it would be a good week to let him have a break from his shots and give his system a rest. The Vet had said at some point I may want to try this. He was a bit slower over the weekend but didn't seem a lot worse till yesterday.
He's skipped two meals and is just been limp. I resumed the shots Monday, and had to give him his cough syrup tonight because he was more congested than he's been in a long time. I'd already scheduled a Vet visit for tomorrow, and though he's not as perky as when I made the appointment, I'm still planning on taking him. 
I hope the short medicine break hasn't tipped the scales inside of him. Keeping watch and keeping hope.


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## ShirleyTX

I hope you are not second guessing yourself. I have wondered off and on if the turtle would need a med break at some point. If there ever has been a chelonian who can tipped the scales back, it is your turtle. Please let us know how he is in the morning, and what the vet has to say. Will keep hope with you.


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## omhoge

He was super koncked out this morning, I held him and petted him awake. I gave him pure treat food and he's gobbling it up. Fingers crossed for trip to Vet this evening. Thank you ShirleryTX.


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## ShirleyTX

How wonderful it must be for the turtle to wake up in your hand, being petted and getting warmed up. Not feeling well and having your magic fingers appear with his favorite treats. Have a warm light to sit near while he waits for you to return and pack him up for a vet trip. Hoping hoping hoping...…..


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## vladimir

Wishing you and the Turtle a good vet visit!


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## omhoge

The Vet visit was stressful but good, if not entirely definitive, we agreed any sedation is out of the question so biopsies and surgical procedures just aren't an option.

His weight and size are the same.

We discussed his decline after a break in the meds, it's possible the large mass is a type of encapsulated infection (I forget the medical term for it.). We're continuing the Fortaz. When I use up what I have, she said to talk to her about another antibiotic she's having success with in reptiles that only requires an injection every ten days instead of every three. The drooling is probably congestion, and I'll keep using his expectorant when he sounds really phlegmy.

The sore on his neck may have started as a dry spot in a fold of his neck skin, the Vet says she's seen that a lot, but she didn't think the black stuff looked like a normal scab, and it bleeds more than it should when it opens. A chronic sore could turn into a type of lesion, but given the fact it hasn't changed shape or size, it's not malignant. It's still very disconcerting when it opens and she suggested trying liquid skin on it the next time the crust comes off, and the topical creams as needed to keep it protected and as supple as possible. Since we're continuing the shots, she's not concerned about a deep skin infection. He's also been getting a kind of orange "dust" on his front legs which I cannot account for. It could be fungal. So she started us on a Betadine medicated bath for the "dust" and as a treatment for the sore. I have to add the medicine to one of his daily baths and make sure his neck gets washed with it.

We discussed the extreme stretching and gapping/gasping that happened the day I took off work to stay with him. I still haven't figure out what triggered it, and it remains infrequent. She wasn't entirely sure either, it could be something shifts or expands in his bath. But noted that if it becomes continuous he'll stop eating. Complete refusal to eat remains the signal to schedule his final visit.

The Vet pointed out puffy congestion under his eyes I've not noticed before. It went away soon after we got home, and I'm chalking that up to office visit stress.
The Turtle was pretty cooperative, he responds well to her, and she got a look at as much as possible in a noninvasive examination. She encouraged me to not be as shy about it any more and scrub him on his legs and the front part of his shell (the intergular?) under his head. His morning routine is turning into a full 1950's spa day. His nails and beak looked OK. He rebounded from the trip within 24 hours.

He's been improving since the med break though not as active as he was before it, but has been eating more normally again, and is a bit more active. The weather has started to cool off and we heading into the season change, which might be contributing as well.

We spent a least half an hour with her, probably more, and were never rushed, she stayed till I was sure we'd talked through everything we needed to.
Twice she said: "I can't believe I'm seeing him again. I really didn't expect to."


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## KarenSoCal

omhoge said:


> The Vet visit was stressful but good, if not entirely definitive, we agreed any sedation is out of the question so biopsies and surgical procedures just aren't an option.
> 
> His weight and size are the same.
> 
> We discussed his decline after a break in the meds, it's possible the large mass is a type of encapsulated infection (I forget the medical term for it.). We're continuing the Fortaz. When I use up what I have, she said to talk to her about another antibiotic she's having success with in reptiles that only requires an injection every ten days instead of every three. The drooling is probably congestion, and I'll keep using his expectorant when he sounds really phlegmy.
> 
> The sore on his neck may have started as a dry spot in a fold of his neck skin, the Vet says she's seen that a lot, but she didn't think the black stuff looked like a normal scab, and it bleeds more than it should when it opens. A chronic sore could turn into a type of lesion, but given the fact it hasn't changed shape or size, it's not malignant. It's still very disconcerting when it opens and she suggested trying liquid skin on it the next time the crust comes off, and the topical creams as needed to keep it protected and as supple as possible. Since we're continuing the shots, she's not concerned about a deep skin infection. He's also been getting a kind of orange "dust" on his front legs which I cannot account for. It could be fungal. So she started us on a Betadine medicated bath for the "dust" and as a treatment for the sore. I have to add the medicine to one of his daily baths and make sure his neck gets washed with it.
> 
> We discussed the extreme stretching and gapping/gasping that happened the day I took off work to stay with him. I still haven't figure out what triggered it, and it remains infrequent. She wasn't entirely sure either, it could be something shifts or expands in his bath. But noted that if it becomes continuous he'll stop eating. Complete refusal to eat remains the signal to schedule his final visit.
> 
> The Vet pointed out puffy congestion under his eyes I've not noticed before. It went away soon after we got home, and I'm chalking that up to office visit stress.
> The Turtle was pretty cooperative, he responds well to her, and she got a look at as much as possible in a noninvasive examination. She encouraged me to not be as shy about it any more and scrub him on his legs and the front part of his shell (the intergular?) under his head. His morning routine is turning into a full 1950's spa day. His nails and beak looked OK. He rebounded from the trip within 24 hours.
> 
> He's been improving since the med break though not as active as he was before it, but has been eating more normally again, and is a bit more active. The weather has started to cool off and we heading into the season change, which might be contributing as well.
> 
> We spent a least half an hour with her, probably more, and were never rushed, she stayed till I was sure we'd talked through everything we needed to.
> Twice she said: "I can't believe I'm seeing him again. I really didn't expect to."


Wow! What a great update!
I'm so glad he is improving again. I think "The Turtle" should be "The Wonder Turtle"!


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## omhoge

Thank you KarenSoCal, he's pretty amazing. 

And usually very cooperative.
But I have to say, putting liquid bandage on his neck by myself was not exactly easy.
We'll see how this works out. 

He's gotten closer to his "New Normal - Summer Phase", 
but has been propping himself up on his stones more this week.

fingers crossed.


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## KarenSoCal

omhoge said:


> Thank you KarenSoCal, he's pretty amazing.
> 
> And usually very cooperative.
> But I have to say, putting liquid bandage on his neck by myself was not exactly easy.
> We'll see how this works.


I have that same problem! Trying to medicate by myself! Simple ear drops in a cat...I put my foot across her chest, my hand clamps her neck, while I try to manage her eyedrops with the other hand.


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## RACCOON EGGS

Very interesting info from the vet.
Let us know how liquid skin goes, and keep up the good work!


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## omhoge

This week the Turtle came out early looking for his food a couple times! Still slower than a couple months ago, but closer to his "new normal",

The front of his shell under his head is becoming shinny again with the scraping and cleaning. The orange dust is still there but seems less.
He really hates having his legs cleaned.

The liquid bandage may actually be helping! I'm lucky he lets me do all this stuff to him. 
We'll have to go through a shedding cycle to see if it will contain the sore, but I'm surprised at how well it's working so far.

He's been keeping his head out after his bath, specially if I hold him at an angle, and I've been able to apply it more easily without having to pull on him.
And he's been letting it dry, which may be due to his condition,
or he may just like me blowing on the back of his neck.


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## omhoge

The Turtle passed away quietly at home today.

He will be greatly missed. We're very grateful to have had so many years together, 
and that he was in his favorite place, in the company of those who loved him, at the end.

Thank you so much to everyone on this forum for your support and prayers.


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## Toddrickfl1

omhoge said:


> The Turtle passed away quietly at home today.
> 
> He will be greatly missed. We're very grateful to have had so many years together,
> and that he was in his favorite place, in the company of those who loved him, at the end.
> 
> Thank you so much to everyone on this forum for your support and prayers.


Oh no, so sorry for your loss


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## Turtle girl 98

Oh so sorry for your loss [emoji20]


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## vladimir

I'm so very sorry for your loss. You went above and beyond in caring for the Turtle


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## omhoge

Thank all you for your kind words. Vlad, it was more to remember and do, but honestly never felt like a burden.

His passing could not have been more perfect. The Turtle left us an amazing gift.

If anyone in NY or NJ ever has need of one, the pet crematory we used was exemplary.
Pet Rest at Peace in Secaucus, NJ

I finally found the photo I'd wanted to share a long time ago.
So many memories of our 32 years together, this shot captured the essence of them.

many, many, thanks!


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## ShirleyTX

I guess we all knew it was coming... but he had cheated death so many times, a part of me thought him immortal. Your patience and love are a model of commitment to an animal, and I’ve been inspired. Thank you for sharing turtle’s journey with us. 

R.I.P. Turtle.


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## RACCOON EGGS

I'm sorry to hear that he passed  You gave him such a good life for the time that you had him. You did a great job and stuck with him till the end and never gave up.


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## KarenSoCal

I just found your post...to say I'm sorry doesn't begin to cover how I'm feeling.

You must have a big hole in your heart. I can't imagine having the same pet for 32 years, and the difficulties you two faced together.

Bless you for your dedication and love.

RIP, Turtle!


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## omhoge

Many thanks to you all for your kind remarks, and support over the last couple years. It's not easy, but it helps to have a lot to be grateful for.

Today is the date the Turtle was diagnosed with a terminal condition. He rallied several times, and stayed with us another year and 11 months. We always spent time with him, which became every moment possible after that visit to the Vet. He kept coming to us, or was near, all the while. After an amazing Summer upswing, he still maintained his "new normal": eating, walking around, and pooping in his bath. 

That last day he walked around his room, settled in the spot where our feet usually are, and fell asleep with his head hanging out like he had been. Later on he was pulled in. When I took him dinner he didn't respond as I scratched his shell and asked "what's going on Turtle?" I picked him up we could tell he was gone. Though I could still hold him with his front legs over my thumbs, I couldn't kiss his little beak any more.

His timing was perfect, everything fell into place exactly right. There was not the slightest unpleasantness as we prepared for the cremation. We were able to be with the Turtle up to the very final moment and say good by. The entire process was incredibly healing. 

We all have been saying: "He did it! that's exactly how I want to go." Thank you Turtle, you were the best turtle in the world to us.


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