# "The floor is too cold for them!" -- I Disagree!



## Talka (Mar 7, 2012)

I looked up whether or not reptiles feel temperatures very well through their scaly skin. I couldn't find any formal papers (disappointing lack of findings, really) but the idea on the internet seems to be that reptiles, especially on their thick, scaly skin, can only feel more extreme temperatures like burning and freezing. Otherwise, they know it's cold simply from their metabolism slowing down.

Torts can feel temperatures well through their necks, by that logic, since they don't have scaly necks. Makes sense, as they always stretch their necks out to the sun and stick their legs out so their softer skin shows.

So I wonder, is letting a tortoise wander around a cold floor in a house bad for them at all? A bit of a temperature change to the body does happen, but their feet are so thick and scaly that I doubt they can feel it. I also doubt they can feel the cold of the floor through their shells, which are particularly thick underneath.
A lot of tortoise owners here have said their torts willingly go onto the cold floor. I know my Sheldon does this often. He gets huffy with me when I don't open my study door and let him out onto the tiled floor.

Just my two cents...


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## Tom (Mar 7, 2012)

This should be in the debatable section...

Never the less... The issue is not whether or not they "feel" the temperature. The issue is that with out the correct temperatures, these ectothermic animals cannot properly maintain their bodily functions. It isn't about the floor, its about any space that is too cold, where they cannot or will not warm up.

Another problem with the floor is the danger of foreign object ingestion. All sorts of things are lurking on the floor. Hair, buttons, crumbs, cords, carpet fibers, screws, pen caps, etc...

Another issue is the possibility of them getting stepped on, smacked by a door, chewed on by another pet, or lost...

The floor in any normal home is not a place for a tortoise. They belong in their own dedicated safe space with the correct temperatures for that species.


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## JoesMum (Mar 7, 2012)

Joe is a heat magnate like all torts.

My observations of him in the garden are that he appears to prefer to walk on warmer surfaces. 

We have a large area of sandstone patio with red brick edging. The edging continues around the lawn. On cooler days, Joe will go out of his way only to walk on the bricks. It can be quite funny watching him following the red brick 'road' round the lawn and patio to get to where he wants to be.

I have measured the relative temperatures with my hand and the bricks are definitely a few degrees warmer than the sandstone slabs and the grass. I don't think cold floor temps do any harm, but torts will just use any opportunity to pick up heat.


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## Talka (Mar 8, 2012)

Woops, sorry. Can a mod move this to "debates"?


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## harris (Mar 8, 2012)

Talka said:


> So I wonder, is letting a tortoise wander around a cold floor in a house bad for them at all? A bit of a temperature change to the body does happen, but their feet are so thick and scaly that I doubt they can feel it. I also doubt they can feel the cold of the floor through their shells, which are particularly thick underneath.



Think about this for a moment, and I'll use an exaggerated scenario here. 

Outside it's a 50 degree day, yet the ground is covered with snow from the previous night's snowfall. Take a 4" thick piece of steel that is 12" X 12" and lay it on the snow and come back in an hour or so. What temp is that piece of steel going to be, which is surely thicker, stronger, an much less porous than a tortoise's shell or legs? It's going to be as cold as the snow is.

Floor temps will certainly affect your tortoise's temp.


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## Madkins007 (Mar 8, 2012)

Heat will always move from hot to cold, either by direct contact (conduction), or by warming the air or liquids it is in contact with (convection), or though warming rays (radiation). 

Our homes are heated mostly by convection- the furnace heats air which warms the room. Convection heating will never really 'warm' a floor because the warm air rises (check the temps by the ceiling- they are almost always surprisingly high! This is the main benefit of a ceiling fan.)

So, cool floor. The tort gains heat by sitting in the sunlight (radiation), or by a heat vent (convection), or sitting on or near a heated surface (conduction)... then walks on the typical cooler floor. It will loose heat quickly by conduction with every step.

This does not happen so much outside since the radiation and convection heating of the sun will warm the top several inches of soil quite nicely. Even in a good terrarium, we have trouble heating the substrate as nicely as the sun can.

How much of an issue is this really? I think you can arrange a room or even a house to accommodate the tortoise's needs, but it takes a bit of thinking. How to prevent too much heat loss? How to manage the need to dig or burrow? How to keep the tort safe from other issues or drafts, etc. Overall, it takes a lot more thought than keeping a dog or cat in the typical home.


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## Merlin M (Mar 8, 2012)

Madkins007 said:


> How much of an issue is this really? I think you can arrange a room or even a house to accommodate the tortoise's needs, but it takes a bit of thinking. How to prevent too much heat loss? How to manage the need to dig or burrow? How to keep the tort safe from other issues or drafts, etc. Overall, it takes a lot more thought than keeping a dog or cat in the typical home.



So theoretically a clean house with underfloor heating (provided this is not too hot, am not sure what temps they create on the floor) would be fine?


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## EricIvins (Mar 8, 2012)

Step 1 - Research Thermal Dynamics.......

Step 2 - Research Ectotherms, and the complexities of being Ectothermic in relation to heat energy and heat energy transfer....... ( It isn't as simple as being cold blooded )

Step 3 - Apply step one and two, and you'll realize why this is a bad idea, in a formal way........ ( Google is not you friend when it comes to this, but academic databases are )


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## StudentoftheReptile (Mar 8, 2012)

> The floor in any normal home is not a place for a tortoise. They belong in their own dedicated safe space with the correct temperatures for that species.





> Floor temps will certainly affect your tortoise's temp.





> How much of an issue is this really? I think you can arrange a room or even a house to accommodate the tortoise's needs, but it takes a bit of thinking. How to prevent too much heat loss? How to manage the need to dig or burrow? How to keep the tort safe from other issues or drafts, etc. Overall, it takes a lot more thought than keeping a dog or cat in the typical home.





EricIvins said:


> *Step 1* - Research Thermal Dynamics.......
> *Step 2* - Research Ectotherms, and the complexities of being Ectothermic in relation to heat energy and heat energy transfer....... ( It isn't as simple as being cold blooded )
> *Step 3* - Apply step one and two, and you'll realize why this is a bad idea, in a formal way........ ( Google is not you friend when it comes to this, but academic databases are )



DITTO! My opinion is that if you really want a pet that can wander around safely around the floor of your home, get a dog or a cat. Don't try to force any ectothermic animal into this situation.


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## Weda737 (Mar 8, 2012)

I used to let my bearded dragon out from time to time, I'd watch him so he wasn't really "running loose" but when he got a little cool I had a heat lamp shining down on the floor and he'd go crash under it. It's so cute how he would curl up like a cat under that lamp and take a nap.


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## Madkins007 (Mar 9, 2012)

There is another aspect to this discussion- what does the tortoise think? If you laid down and looked at your house from a tortoise's eye level- what do you see?

Mostly a big, empty space, right? Nowhere really snug to use as a hide, nowhere to really dig in or wedge in and feel secure. No visible food, no familiar landmarks... What does it smell? Dust, cleaning agents, other animals (maybe)? Lots of vibrations from you walking around, transmitted very well.

When I used to do this back in the 90's, my tort spent most of his time hiding in a couple of corners. Now that I look at it from his point of view, he was probably at least somewhat stressed out by this.


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## Kerryann (Mar 10, 2012)

I have an area that I let betty run in our theater room. I don't leave her out there for very long but she spends her time climbing and running around like an escape artist or crawling on me. I am a neat freak and I also vacuum the carpet before letting her run. She never seems to hide or be nervous. She does come over towards the chair I work in and eyeball me if I am not sitting in her play area. 
I would think that letting an animal run around outside would be less temperature consistent and definitely less sanitary than allowing them to run around a clean and warm house.


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## Tom (Mar 10, 2012)

Kerryann said:


> I would think that letting an animal run around outside would be less temperature consistent and definitely less sanitary than allowing them to run around a clean and warm house.



For the first part: You don't put them outside in incorrect temps.

For the second part: It's not a question of sanitary, it's a question of access to things that if ingested could be dangerous.

The benefits of letting them run around outside in a safe well designed pen far out weigh the risks. There is no benefit to letting them run around indoors on the floor, but there are lots of risks.


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 10, 2012)

Letting an animal run around outside is more normal, they are used to seeing the rocks and still might taste one or two, that won't hurt them. Walking and grazing on the grass is more normal then walking across the bare kitchen floor and eating cat hair. The ground heats up more then the kitchen floor does, that's why we wait until Spring to put our tortoises outside. I let one of my tortoises walk around the kitchen floor for a while and when I picked him up he was stiff and cold. Not dead, just cold. Several weeks later he had poop dragging along behind him connected to his anus with a long blonde hair, (mine) so I gently pulled on it and it was a long one. I felt lucky that the hair hadn't gotten wrapped an intestine and caused trouble. I had washed the floor before putting the tort on it. That's another thought...how does a tort feel about inhaling Mr Clean? I think there are many pros and cons to this subject so the best thing I think is to keep tortoises in habitats intended for them. I'd be willing to bet the farm that it's only new inexperienced chelonia keepers who allow tortoises out on the floor. Most experienced keepers keep them in a habitat intended for them...


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## jaizei (Mar 11, 2012)

I'd agree with the idea that the floor might not be too cold for them. The floor of my house is no colder than the cool side of their enclosures, so temperature wouldn't be a reason for me to not let them roam around. I don't let them roam about the floor for the other reasons given here; I don't want them eating things off the floor and I don't want to clean up the mess they may make.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Mar 11, 2012)

Tortoises are active on days when the temperature is right for them, and inactive on days when it's not. A cold part of your house (such as a cold floor) may mimic the conditions on a cold day, but the tortoise has nowhere to go to try to rectify the situation. He is forced to walk around in suboptimal conditions, looking for someplace better. Unless your house is warm enough, the tiles will be rather cold, and whether your tortoise feels it or not, they will cause the heat in his body to diffuse outward. Therefore, unless even your tiles are warm (which is possible), letting your tortoise walk around the house will cause his body temperature to fall unnecessarily.

Of course, as mentioned above, there's more to it than temperature. There's also the matter of debris your tortoise might ingest, dust bunnies he might get in his face (which are not the same as the dust in the soil he's adapted to), and the chance he might get stepped on or struck with a door.

I'm not saying tortoises should never be allowed out of their pens indoors. Rather, I'm saying that if they are allowed to roam inside the house, it should be under the proper conditions, and with supervision.


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## JoeImhof (Mar 30, 2012)

Tom said:


> This should be in the debatable section...
> 
> Never the less... The issue is not whether or not they "feel" the temperature. The issue is that with out the correct temperatures, these ectothermic animals cannot properly maintain their bodily functions. It isn't about the floor, its about any space that is too cold, where they cannot or will not warm up.
> 
> ...



Tom,

I must say I dont exactly agree. I mean, obviously, they need an enclose to spend most of their time in with the temps, basking light, etc.
BUT, they also spend time when in the enclosure, in the "Cool" side, which is generally same temp as house. Same with night, at night, temp goes down to house temp even in enclosure.
I think its great for them to get out of the enclosure for an hour or so a day and walk around. Not the whole day, or many hours, but an hour or so.
House stays in the 70's, its not too cool for a hour or so a day.
Mine have walked the house for some time most days, since I've had them 3 years +, never had an issue. 
Its good for them too, to get time to explore in the winter, when I cant take them outside.
Just my 2cents

Just to be clear, I surely do NOT suggest they live on the floor and roam around all day like a cat or dog. Thats totally wrong care. They need basking areas, and ability to regulate temps as mentioned by other posters.


Just saying, some time getting out and exploring for short periods, is surely a benefit and not harmful as regards to temps.


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