# Hard or Soft Water?



## Wolfpackin (Jul 28, 2018)

Is there a water hardness range that is best for drinking and soaking for tortoises?


----------



## KarenSoCal (Jul 28, 2018)

Wolfpackin said:


> Is there a water hardness range that is best for drinking and soaking for tortoises?


Yes...somewhere between frozen and steam...[emoji23]


----------



## Wolfpackin (Jul 28, 2018)

I'm also curious if hard water softened by a salt based water softener is OK for drinking and soaking.


----------



## KarenSoCal (Jul 28, 2018)

Wolfpackin said:


> I'm also curious if hard water softened by a salt based water softener is OK for drinking and soaking.


@Wolfpackin 
I am sorry if you didn't appreciate my joke in post #2. I certainly didn't mean to make fun of your question. And in case you wonder, I do understand water hardness.
I would guess that turtles certainly are living in varied hardness in their natural environments. For example, I would think that southeastern US turtles live in softer water, with their peat bogs, etc. And turtles in CO, or here in SoCal, probably live in harder water due to heavy mineral content.
I know that tropical fish can be very sensitive to hardness. However, I suspect that the only time a tort might be sensitive would be if it was very recently wild caught, and suddenly put in totally different water than what it came from. Even then, I don't know if it would care.
As for your softened water, I don't think it matters at all. As another member has said, "if the water is safe for you, it's safe for your tort".
All of the above is conjecture on my part...I hope someone with real knowledge will chime in and enlighten us both.


----------



## Wolfpackin (Jul 28, 2018)

No worries, absolutely no offense taken. I just didn't have a witty comeback.
I also appreciate your opinion.

I have the option of providing very hard Rocky Mountain water or that water after it passes through our softener for domestic use.

I have the unsubstantiated opinion that hard water might be better for tortoises in general because it's calcium and mineral rich.
Things that a shell growing animal might be able to use. And that's just conjecture on my part...


----------



## KarenSoCal (Jul 29, 2018)

Well, one time I asked my doctor why, if the Ca levels in our water are so high, isn't my body Ca level high? He laughed at me and said it doesn't work that way.
Maybe our bodies can't utilize dissolved Ca, or can't extract it from water.
Maybe torts are the same?
Usual caveat: all conjecture [emoji6] Maybe @Markw84 can help us with this.


----------



## JoesMum (Jul 29, 2018)

From a Scientific Paper



> We report herein that the bioavailability of Ca from the water was generally as good as or better than that from milk, a food product well known for its very high Ca bioavailability.


----------



## KarenSoCal (Jul 29, 2018)

JoesMum said:


> From a Scientific Paper


Well, how about that! There went my theory! [emoji16]


----------



## JoesMum (Jul 29, 2018)

Wolfpackin said:


> I'm also curious if hard water softened by a salt based water softener is OK for drinking and soaking.


Humans are advised not to drink artificially softened water here in the UK. We have to have at least one tap that is unsoftened, straight from the water main, in the house. Ours is the cold tap in the kitchen which we use for drinking, cooking and making tea and coffee.

Given that advice, I always use the hard water for pets too.


----------



## KarenSoCal (Jul 29, 2018)

JoesMum said:


> Humans are advised not to drink artificially softened water here in the UK. We have to have at least one tap that is unsoftened, straight from the water main, in the house. Ours is the cold tap in the kitchen which we use for drinking, cooking and making tea and coffee.
> 
> Given that advice, I always use the hard water for pets too.


How interesting! I have personally never had a water softener, but have never heard anything like that.
This is getting more fascinating!


----------



## Markw84 (Jul 29, 2018)

I know of no "hard, scientific" data to support this, but my thoughts from what I have seen in a myriad of other turtle and tortoise issues is that I would not use softened water, and indeed a moderately hard water would be best. I would not be overly concerned about this, but if I had a choice, I would certainly go with the harder water.


----------



## KarenSoCal (Jul 29, 2018)

Markw84 said:


> I know of no "hard, scientific" data to support this, but my thoughts from what I have seen in a myriad of other turtle and tortoise issues is that I would not use softened water, and indeed a moderately hard water would be best. I would not be overly concerned about this, but if I had a choice, I would certainly go with the harder water.


Thank you! Could I ask why you think this? Just curious.


----------



## Markw84 (Jul 29, 2018)

KarenSoCal said:


> Thank you! Could I ask why you think this? Just curious.


I resisted the explaination trying to avoid a long, boring post. The problem I find is that most of my thoughts on tortoise/turtle needs are based upon experience and studies from a broad range of topics and how they all would then fit together. The study showing Ca in water is just as bioavailable as in milk, for example, is one small piece of a puzzle of 100 pieces. It is how they all fit together (or not fit) that leads to my conclusions.

A few pieces... soil and ground water in most areas tortoises are found is both high in total alkalinity and acidic. In tropical forest species, rainwater that puddles and feeds water sources is much higher there in ionic calcium content, for example. I also tend to look at what is optimal as the enviroment best for a developing embryo that would be the most sensitive period of an animal's life. For example - What is the best temperature for a tortoise actively growing? = the best incubation temperature! There is more and more evidence I see that developing chelonian eggs are very much affected by the acidity and total hardness of the moisture to which they are exposed. Rainwater that moistens the nest prior to hatchling emerging are filtered by high mineral, acidic soil in areas that were in a more dry period previously. In the tropical forests the rainwater itself is very high in ionic calcium, potassium and magnesium. I believe many scute abnormalities are related to this chemistry (not incubation temps) when the mother's water content she uses while laying, and the moisture used for the incubation media is too soft and alkaline.

So from just those few examples, I feel there is enough reason to err on the side of caution and try to more closely mimic nature with the chemistry of the water our chelonians use.


----------



## KarenSoCal (Jul 29, 2018)

Markw84 said:


> I resisted the explaination trying to avoid a long, boring post. The problem I find is that most of my thoughts on tortoise/turtle needs are based upon experience and studies from a broad range of topics and how they all would then fit together. The study showing Ca in water is just as bioavailable as in milk, for example, is one small piece of a puzzle of 100 pieces. It is how they all fit together (or not fit) that leads to my conclusions.
> 
> A few pieces... soil and ground water in most areas tortoises are found is both high in total alkalinity and acidic. In tropical forest species, rainwater that puddles and feeds water sources is much higher there in ionic calcium content, for example. I also tend to look at what is optimal as the enviroment best for a developing embryo that would be the most sensitive period of an animal's life. For example - What is the best temperature for a tortoise actively growing? = the best incubation temperature! There is more and more evidence I see that developing chelonian eggs are very much affected by the acidity and total hardness of the moisture to which they are exposed. Rainwater that moistens the nest prior to hatchling emerging are filtered by high mineral, acidic soil in areas that were in a more dry period previously. In the tropical forests the rainwater itself is very high in ionic calcium, potassium and magnesium. I believe many scute abnormalities are related to this chemistry (not incubation temps) when the mother's water content she uses while laying, and the moisture used for the incubation media is too soft and alkaline.
> 
> So from just those few examples, I feel there is enough reason to err on the side of caution and try to more closely mimic nature with the chemistry of the water our chelonians use.


Thank you! Very interesting! I appreciate you taking the time for this...not boring to me!


----------



## Wolfpackin (Jul 29, 2018)

Excellent, just the type of discussion and information I was hoping for.

The most surprising thing to me so far is that the UK advises against drinking softened water.


----------



## Tom (Jul 29, 2018)

Here's more anecdotal conjecture on the subject: I soak and water my babies with the well water on my ranch. It is very hard and very alkaline. Been doing it this way for many years and it has worked very well for me. All babies of all species thrive. I actually use distilled or rainwater to rinse them after soaks so that the hard water doesn't leave unsightly mineral deposits on their carapaces.


----------



## Wolfpackin (Jul 29, 2018)

I asked my wife to switch from our softened water to hard water for the tortoise a couple years ago.
She really didn't consider the difference but since I take care of our cichlids, that require hard water to thrive, and I have to carry buckets of it up stairs...I did consider it. And it seemed like a logical guess that harder water would be better.

I'm glad I decided to ask this question, I feel good about my decision to have her switch.
But I don't feel as good about drinking so much softened water now that I know about the UK.


----------



## KarenSoCal (Jul 29, 2018)

Tom said:


> Here's more anecdotal conjecture on the subject: I soak and water my babies with the well water on my ranch. It is very hard and very alkaline. Been doing it this way for many years and it has worked very well for me. All babies of all species thrive. I actually use distilled or rainwater to rinse them after soaks so that the hard water doesn't leave unsightly mineral deposits on their carapaces.


Was using the hard water a decision on your part because you believed it to be better, or merely a matter of convenience?


----------



## JoesMum (Jul 30, 2018)

This document is from the UK Drinking Water Inspectorate Water Hardness


It is pretty easy to read. This paragraph explains the point about having softened water in the kitchen.



> If you do install a water softener, it is very important that you make sure that it is correctly installed and you do not soften the water to the tap in your kitchen which is used for drinking and cooking. This is because most water softeners work by replacing the hardness with sodium. Too much sodium can be a problem for premature babies because their kidneys are not good at filtering it out of the blood, and for people who are on a low sodium (low salt) diet. Artificially softened water may also be aggressive to plumbing causing leaching of copper and lead.



It's not just about the salt used to soften the water, it is also bcause artificially softened water can cause copper to leach from the pipework into that water supply and excess copper isn't good for you either. We had a blue stain in our bath where a dripping tap caused copper staining over time. (Lead piping is banned for drinking water supplies in the UK and where it exists it is only in very old properties and you are not allowed to drink the water)


----------



## Tom (Jul 30, 2018)

KarenSoCal said:


> Was using the hard water a decision on your part because you believed it to be better, or merely a matter of convenience?


Its just what was/is available.


----------



## C. Nelson (Aug 1, 2018)

I teach first grade and we have repeated a water science experiment twice now. We put tap water in one cup, Coca Cola in another, and vinegar in a third. We dropped in each one of those little candy pumpkins that you get at Halloween. Guess which liquid dissolved the candy first in BOTH experiments? The tap water from a public school faucet that passes government inspections. I always soak my torts in filtered water now just because I am afraid the tap water in my home might be acidic as well. I don't think it's a big deal unless it's a water turtle. But I just want to be safe.


----------



## JoesMum (Aug 1, 2018)

C. Nelson said:


> I teach first grade and we have repeated a water science experiment twice now. We put tap water in one cup, Coca Cola in another, and vinegar in a third. We dropped in each one of those little candy pumpkins that you get at Halloween. Guess which liquid dissolved the candy first in BOTH experiments? The tap water from a public school faucet that passes government inspections. I always soak my torts in filtered water now just because I am afraid the tap water in my home might be acidic as well. I don't think it's a big deal unless it's a water turtle. But I just want to be safe.



If, as I do, the water from your tap leaves limescale all over your kettle then there is absolutely no way it is acidic. 

Test your water with litmus paper... or take it to a pet store that sells fish and get them to test the water for you... one of the tests they do is the pH level, ie acidity.


----------



## Maro2Bear (Aug 1, 2018)

Markw84 said:


> I resisted the explaination trying to avoid a long, boring post. The problem I find is that most of my thoughts on tortoise/turtle needs are based upon experience and studies from a broad range of topics and how they all would then fit together. The study showing Ca in water is just as bioavailable as in milk, for example, is one small piece of a puzzle of 100 pieces. It is how they all fit together (or not fit) that leads to my conclusions.
> 
> A few pieces... soil and ground water in most areas tortoises are found is both high in total alkalinity and acidic. In tropical forest species, rainwater that puddles and feeds water sources is much higher there in ionic calcium content, for example. I also tend to look at what is optimal as the enviroment best for a developing embryo that would be the most sensitive period of an animal's life. For example - What is the best temperature for a tortoise actively growing? = the best incubation temperature! There is more and more evidence I see that developing chelonian eggs are very much affected by the acidity and total hardness of the moisture to which they are exposed. Rainwater that moistens the nest prior to hatchling emerging are filtered by high mineral, acidic soil in areas that were in a more dry period previously. In the tropical forests the rainwater itself is very high in ionic calcium, potassium and magnesium. I believe many scute abnormalities are related to this chemistry (not incubation temps) when the mother's water content she uses while laying, and the moisture used for the incubation media is too soft and alkaline.
> 
> So from just those few examples, I feel there is enough reason to err on the side of caution and try to more closely mimic nature with the chemistry of the water our chelonians use.



In @Tom and @Markw84 - We Trust


----------



## Tom (Aug 1, 2018)

C. Nelson said:


> I teach first grade and we have repeated a water science experiment twice now. We put tap water in one cup, Coca Cola in another, and vinegar in a third. We dropped in each one of those little candy pumpkins that you get at Halloween. Guess which liquid dissolved the candy first in BOTH experiments? The tap water from a public school faucet that passes government inspections. I always soak my torts in filtered water now just because I am afraid the tap water in my home might be acidic as well. I don't think it's a big deal unless it's a water turtle. But I just want to be safe.


This is not an indication of acidity. This is an indication of which is a better solvent. Water is an excellent solvent, especially of sugar.

What type of filter are you using to change the perceived acidity of your water? Most household filters remove particulates, but don't change the chemical nature or pH of the water. RO water would do it, but that is not good for your tortoises due to lack of minerals.


----------

