# Whitch Incubator should I use?



## KatyshaB (Apr 6, 2016)

I have been breeding my russians on and off for a month now, I'm hoping Natalie (the female) will soon lay eggs. And I'm looking at incubators. The first one I looked at was the Zoo Med's Reptibator, I read the reviews and many said it was flimsy, some said it was a great incubator, others said it fried all of there eggs. I also went into the Exo-Terra incubator, the reviews where on and off also. I would normally not care, but eggs are fragile things. And I want to get the PERFECT one (As long as I can buy it without going broke..) because I don't want to take any chances for my first eggs, so what incubators are really good and under the price range of $350?


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## Lyn W (Apr 6, 2016)

There was an interesting article on TV about incubators that people buy for chicken rearing in the UK the other day and of 140+ that were tested - by Trading Standards I believe -they all had fake safety marks and most over heated with quite serious consequences.

I don't know how safety standards work in the US but you are right to do your homework.


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## KatyshaB (Apr 6, 2016)

I have found many incubators, also safety standards in the US are REALLY REALLY safe, to the point where it's annoying. It's because americans sew people every time there child falls or they get hurt. For an example, say a kid falls of a slide and breaks his arm. The parents would sew the people who made the slide because it was too 'high'. I remember when I was younger THERE WHERE NO FUN PLAYGROUNDS. Also, I went to a science fair one time and my experiment was cutting up a sheep brain, I took pics of that and when I went to the science fair they said I had to remove my pics of the brain because it was too 'scary'. And that people had sewed them before because there child got upset about a dead animal. I was SO mad, so I'm pretty sure there aren't gonna be any safety hazards for me. I'm worried about the eggs, and I want a reliable incubator that won't overheat my eggs. Also, while your here, I was thinking about taking my female to the vet to get her X-Rayed, money put aside, I would like to know if it will have any side affects like it does with humans.


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## Tom (Apr 6, 2016)

Get a simple, plain old, still air "Hovabator" or "Little Giant". Should cost about $60. They are simple and reliable and they work as well as anything out there. You can find them at a local feed store or on line.

I would not recommend any of the ones marketed for reptiles. All of them are unreliable crap. I have not used any of the high end ones that cost hundreds or thousands of dollars, so those might be okay, but they still perform no better than the two I mentioned.


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## KatyshaB (Apr 6, 2016)

Really? I didn't know that, good thing I checked but don't tortoise eggs need humidity to survive. I looked at Hovabators too, but they said they didn't have any humidity control, otherwise I would have gotten one from the start, what do you do with humidity?


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## Tony the tank (Apr 6, 2016)

KatyshaB said:


> I have been breeding my russians on and off for a month now, I'm hoping Natalie (the female) will soon lay eggs. And I'm looking at incubators. The first one I looked at was the Zoo Med's Reptibator, I read the reviews and many said it was flimsy, some said it was a great incubator, others said it fried all of there eggs. I also went into the Exo-Terra incubator, the reviews where on and off also. I would normally not care, but eggs are fragile things. And I want to get the PERFECT one (As long as I can buy it without going broke..) because I don't want to take any chances for my first eggs, so what incubators are really good and under the price range of $350?




I use a Reptibator( was given to me).. I can't compare it to any other incubator as this is the only one I've used for years ..Never any issues... Yes ...it's very flimsy basically a styrofoam box with a double walled clear lid which houses the heater and controller... Comes with a large egg crate sponge which you moisten to raise humidity.... It does what it's supposed to do ..But to be honest ..if it wasn't free. Not sure I would have brought it...not very impressive..


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## KatyshaB (Apr 6, 2016)

One more thing, I'm not sure if my female is gravid. I got her one march 14, and they started breeding on march 15. I put them together on and off. They where together all day for three days, and then then put together for a couple of hours for two more days. It's been about two weeks from that time frame, did I breed them enough? People have said it depends on genes, I can believe that, but what is the general number that russian torts have to mate for there to be a gravid female?


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## Tom (Apr 6, 2016)

KatyshaB said:


> Really? I didn't know that, good thing I checked but don't tortoise eggs need humidity to survive. I looked at Hovabators too, but they said they didn't have any humidity control, otherwise I would have gotten one from the start, what do you do with humidity?



Humidity is achieved with russian eggs by having wide mouthed open containers of water inside the incubator, next to the egg containers.

You control the humidity by have more or less water containers, as needed.


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## Tom (Apr 6, 2016)

KatyshaB said:


> One more thing, I'm not sure if my female is gravid. I got her one march 14, and they started breeding on march 15. I put them together on and off. They where together all day for three days, and then then put together for a couple of hours for two more days. It's been about two weeks from that time frame, did I breed them enough? People have said it depends on genes, I can believe that, but what is the general number that russian torts have to mate for there to be a gravid female?



Just putting two tortoises together and seeing mounting does not mean you have eggs coming. There are people who have male and female Russians together for years, with lots of mounting, and they don't see eggs ever. Its really hit or miss. It just works sometimes, and other times, it just doesn't. 

Also, they mount to show territorial dominance too. The male might not have copulated at all. The female has to let him in. She might wait years to do this, or she might never let him. It is also possible that he succeeded in his first few attempts. Only time will tell, but what I'm saying is: Don't hold your breath. It might be a long time before you see eggs.


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## KatyshaB (Apr 6, 2016)

Tom said:


> Just putting two tortoises together and seeing mounting does not mean you have eggs coming. There are people who have male and female Russians together for years, with lots of mounting, and they don't see eggs ever. Its really hit or miss. It just works sometimes, and other times, it just doesn't.
> 
> Also, they mount to show territorial dominance too. The male might not have copulated at all. The female has to let him in. She might wait years to do this, or she might never let him. It is also possible that he succeeded in his first few attempts. Only time will tell, but what I'm saying is: Don't hold your breath. It might be a long time before you see eggs.


I see. But I don't think they where just mounting. Because when he mounted her, there was a lot of humping. And he did that high pitched squealing noise too. Bosley is dominant, I can tell because he sleeps on top of her when they rest. But I do think they where signs of sex. Also, it's different then showing dominance because at FIRST sight he begins the biting\mating cycle, so it's not at random times, and after I take her away, he trots around his enclosure looking for her, and then skulks away, but if they where showing dominance I don't think he would mount her 15+ times a day. So I really do believe that is it mating. I will try not to hold my breath, I'm this way with lots of things. One of my downfalls I suppose.


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## KatyshaB (Apr 7, 2016)

Another thing, that I think shows they are mating, is right before Bosley mounts her, he moves his tail from his usual sideways position to having his tail right under him, so he can make contact with her tail. (So it's basically just sex), unless Bosley wants to pretend to have sex, he is mating..


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## Tom (Apr 7, 2016)

KatyshaB said:


> Another thing, that I think shows they are mating, is right before Bosley mounts her, he moves his tail from his usual sideways position to having his tail right under him, so he can make contact with her tail. (So it's basically just sex), unless Bosley wants to pretend to have sex, he is mating..



It is not that simple. The male can do whatever he wants. Doesn't matter how many times he does, or doesn't mount. Doesn't matter what he does with his tail or his other equipment. The female has to decide to let him in, or it ain't happenin'.

Believe me when I tell you that lots and lots of very experienced keepers have put russians together and done everything "right" and never seen a baby, no matter how much mounting was happening. Other times, people just throw two tortoises together and get eggs in a month. It is a really perplexing mystery, and I suspect there are several factors at work which determine success or failure.

I'm not trying to discourage you. I'm trying to give you a realistic picture of what may, or may not be happening. Don't count your chickens before they hatch.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 7, 2016)

I have used the Little Giant Bird Brooder for years:







and have hatched out quite a few different species of tortoise. Yes, it's flimsy, made out of styrofoam, but it works. You don't need artificial humidity control. You are the humidity control. You add a cup of water, like Tom suggested, and keep it filled with water.

If you do buy one of this type, be sure you DO NOT get the kind that turns the eggs.


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## KatyshaB (Apr 7, 2016)

Tom said:


> It is not that simple. The male can do whatever he wants. Doesn't matter how many times he does, or doesn't mount. Doesn't matter what he does with his tail or his other equipment. The female has to decide to let him in, or it ain't happenin'.
> 
> Believe me when I tell you that lots and lots of very experienced keepers have put russians together and done everything "right" and never seen a baby, no matter how much mounting was happening. Other times, people just throw two tortoises together and get eggs in a month. It is a really perplexing mystery, and I suspect there are several factors at work which determine success or failure.
> 
> I'm not trying to discourage you. I'm trying to give you a realistic picture of what may, or may not be happening. Don't count your chickens before they hatch.


I see. And I understand. But it what way does the female have to let him in? Is it tail wise, or is it something else. This is interesting and I'm going to try to do research on it. If you can, tell me what way the female has to let him in?


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## Tom (Apr 7, 2016)

KatyshaB said:


> I see. And I understand. But it what way does the female have to let him in? Is it tail wise, or is it something else. This is interesting and I'm going to try to do research on it. If you can, tell me what way the female has to let him in?



They usually lift up their rear just a little, and they have to relax the muscles that hold the cloaca shut.

A little insight: I was given a sick leopard tortoise to rehab. She was 19" and near 40 pounds. As treatment went along, my vet wanted to ensure good hydration. There are three ways to hydrate a tortoise. 1. Soaking and drinking. Least effective. 2. SubQ. Most effective, but also most invasive, what with the needle and all. 3. Cloacal fluids. Middle of the road effectiveness, and not as invasive as a needle.

We opted to try cloacal fluids. He showed me how much to use and gave me a large syringe with a large ball ended cannula on the end of it. Day 1 was no problem. Slipped it right in and proceeded to push the fluid into her. Day two she was feeling better and offered a little "resistance", but I carefully got the cannula in and gave her what she needed. Day 3? Uh uh. No way. Not happening. She clamped shut and there was no way no how I was getting that little cannula inside her. No amount of lube, effort or trickery was going to make it happen. I tried food distraction, the "surprise attack", gentle persistent persuasion, etc… Nope! No one and nothing was getting in there. So we switched back to daily soaks and eventually a feeding tube so that I could get medicine, hydration and nutrition into her.

The point is, females have control over what does or does not enter their cloaca.

Further info: Even when the female does allow entry, it doesn't always "take". Just like with humans or any other animal, copulation does not automatically guarantee fertile eggs. Sometimes it just doesn't happen. Is it captive stress? Lack of hydration? Poor diet? Different subspecies of parents? Lack of suitable nesting sites from the females perspective? Some mechanical problem? Some biological problem? Some combination of these or many other possible factors? No one knows. What we do know is that some tortoises reproduce and some don't. Just because a male mounted, does not mean babies are on the way. It _might_ mean that, but frequently it doesn't.

Here is another thing we've seen here on the forum: Two males. Or two females. Russians are scrappy and females will mount other females as a sign of dominance and territoriality, just like males. Many people misidentify the sexes of russians, especially because the males have flat plastrons in contrast to other species. Don't laugh. It happens all the time.

So again. Not trying to quell your enthusiasm. Just trying to keep your feet on the ground.


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## KatyshaB (Apr 7, 2016)

I see. And I understand, well I guess I'll just wait and see what happens.


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## KatyshaB (Apr 7, 2016)

How is your leopard tortoise anyway?


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## Tom (Apr 7, 2016)

KatyshaB said:


> How is your leopard tortoise anyway?



After a two year fight and thousands in diagnostics and treatment, I lost her. Necropsy was inconclusive. Many problems were detected, but nothing contagious. They could not determine which issues were the primary COD, and which issues were secondary. They listed "Respiratory Infection" as the official COD.

I was really heart broken over that one. She was a magnificent 15 year old South African specimen. Several times throughout the years she seemed like she was going to recover and get better, and then she'd back slide again. We never could figure out what was wrong with her in the first place. Knowing where she had come from, I had a few suspicions, but nothing could be verified. After every test known to man came back negative, we began trying to diagnose through treatment. Several courses of various meds all failed.

There are not words to describe my frustration and sorrow over the loss of "Hope".


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## KatyshaB (Apr 7, 2016)

Tom said:


> There are not words to describe my frustration and sorrow over the loss of "Hope".


I'm sorry.. that's kind of how I feel right now.. But I suppose without loss of hope, we wouldn't be human. Alas!

I know how it feels to lose an animal. Well not just an animal, but somebody you loved. My family (well, mainly me) studies how animals can adapt to different environments. We would catch all sorts of reptiles and amphibians. And keep them for a few months to see how they react to captivity, and if they survive (some have sicknesses that we cannot cure), we set them free again. Once I was walking by a drained water hole, (full of icy cold water) and found an aquatic gardner snake, he must have been attracted to the water and could not get out, he would have died if I wasn't there. So we took him home and I named him Larry. We was REALLY cool, he would eat fish and we could watch him eat. But one day.. we lost him. I was heartbroken. 

They way you feel is kinda how I feel right now. I was REALLY excited about getting babies. I thought is would be a good way to help my future of working with reptiles if I had experience raising them. From my research I read it was hard to trigger sexual actions. But it happened on the second day I got her. And I got hopeful.. Too hopeful. I thank you for setting me back on my feet, otherwise I would have learned the hard way, after mopping around feeling depressed (some tears where shed..) I listened to an hours worth of symphonic metal, doom metal, gothic, and punk metal. I feel better.. mostly.. but I'll get over it. One of my downfalls is being too hopeful, it always ends in one way.. Indescribable joy, or serious disappointment..


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## Tom (Apr 7, 2016)

KatyshaB said:


> I'm sorry.. that's kind of how I feel right now.. But I suppose without loss of hope, we wouldn't be human. Alas!
> 
> I know how it feels to lose an animal. Well not just an animal, but somebody you loved. My family (well, mainly me) studies how animals can adapt to different environments. We would catch all sorts of reptiles and amphibians. And keep them for a few months to see how they react to captivity, and if they survive (some have sicknesses that we cannot cure), we set them free again. Once I was walking by a drained water hole, (full of icy cold water) and found an aquatic gardner snake, he must have been attracted to the water and could not get out, he would have died if I wasn't there. So we took him home and I named him Larry. We was REALLY cool, he would eat fish and we could watch him eat. But one day.. we lost him. I was heartbroken.
> 
> They way you feel is kinda how I feel right now. I was REALLY excited about getting babies. I thought is would be a good way to help my future of working with reptiles if I had experience raising them. From my research I read it was hard to trigger sexual actions. But it happened on the second day I got her. And I got hopeful.. Too hopeful. I thank you for setting me back on my feet, otherwise I would have learned the hard way, after mopping around feeling depressed (some tears where shed..) I listened to an hours worth of symphonic metal, doom metal, gothic, and punk metal. I feel better.. mostly.. but I'll get over it. One of my downfalls is being too hopeful, it always ends in one way.. Indescribable joy, or serious disappointment..




Hope was that leopard tortoises name. As in I Hope she gets better...

Don't be disappointed about what you've learned about tortoise breeding. Still be hopeful, but understand that tortoises require a lot of patience and persistence. Not much instant gratification here... Enjoy your tortoises now, with the long term goal of reproduction.


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## KatyshaB (Apr 7, 2016)

I'll try to do that. Sorry I didn't get the quotations marks on the name "Hope" that a pretty name.


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