# How long is the "delicate" stage for hatchlings?



## DaveInLA (Jun 7, 2011)

There are a lot of articles and care sheets out there stating that beginners shouldn't take on a hatchling because they're more delicate than a young tortoise that has "weathered the storm", so to speak. But how long before a hatchling is out of the delicate stage? I've seen some recommend yearlings, but most breeders don't hold onto baby tortoises for a year. What about 5-6 months? Are they a lot less hardly than they are at 1 year, for example?


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## Eweezyfosheezy (Jun 7, 2011)

Hatchlings at 5-6 months old could be a big difference in some tortoises than a yearling tortoise but those are probably less hardy tortoises. If you are looking at russians or other testudos for a first tortoise I would suggest to get at least a yearling or older although it wouldnt be too much hardier or bigger than a 5-6 month old tortoise. Id say right around a 3-4 month old hatchling would do good without any problems given the right environment and you wouldnt have to worry too much as long as its already healthy when acquired and what species it is.

Here is a yearling greek tortoise that would be a great first tortoise: 

http://www.tortoisesupply.com/products/Yearling-(Ibera)-Greek-Tortoise.html

Or heres one for a russian tortoise:

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=152&de=848878


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## yagyujubei (Jun 7, 2011)

I think that size rather than age is the factor.


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## GBtortoises (Jun 7, 2011)

I agree with yagyujubei. I also don't believe that there is a "delicate" stage. Hatchlings can be maintained the same as adults as long as their smaller body mass is taken into consideration in terms of ensuring that they remain well hydrated. Diet, temperatures and all other care requirements are exactly the same, just on a smaller scale.


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## DaveInLA (Jun 7, 2011)

Regarding size, a sulcata at 3 months is probably as large as a Russian at 1 yrs (I think)-- do you suppose they would be equally hardy at those respective ages?


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## GBtortoises (Jun 7, 2011)

Growth rate is completely determined by environmental forces such as diet quality & quantity, temperature, light intensity & duration and activity level. So a 3 month old Sulcata could or could not be the same size as a 1 year old Russian tortoise, kind of hard to compare since each may have a very different growth rate under the same conditions. Under good environmental conditions both tortoises would likely be "hardy". The difference may be that in general the younger (and smaller) the tortoise, the more likely it is going to be to spend more time in hiding. People sometimes relate this to "hardiness" of a species or specific animal. It's actually just simply a survival instinct. Smaller tortoises are more apt to become prey for something. Some young tortoises will feel secure enough to venture out more often than others of the same age and/or size. Sometimes it just comes down to the individual tortoises. I have two adult female Ibera tortoises that came to me as wild caught adults about 20 years ago. One is out all the time, in all temperatures and weather. The other one, I might see about once a week unless I go looking for her. Young tortoises can be very much the same. Sometimes it just comes down to the individual.


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## Yvonne G (Jun 7, 2011)

Hi Dave:

What the previous posters said is absolutely true, but with a caveat. Quite a few hatchling tortoises are purchased by brand-new-to-tortoises people. These people don't have a "feel" for caring for a tortoise. We should refer the "delicate" moniker to the people, not to the hatchling. With proper care, a hatchling is no more delicate than a full grown tortoise, however, a full grown tortoise is much more forgiving of improper care than a hatchling is.

Because of their small size, they dehydrate quite quickly. Someone used to the feel of the weight of a tortoise would soon realize how light their baby feels, and know that he's dehydrated, while a new tortoise person, wouldn't recognize it.

If a new-to-tortoises person follows the care instructions faithfully, he shouldn't have any trouble keeping a baby alive. 

In answer to your question, in my opinion, the first 6 months of a baby's life are the critical ones.


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## GBtortoises (Jun 7, 2011)

Excellent point (and point of view) Yvonne! I sometimes overlook the fact that people don't always ask questions or seek information for their newly acquired tortoises until after the fact. Sometimes too long after the fact! 

I think you just nailed it with the statement: "We should refer the "delicate" moniker to the people, not the hatchling".


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## HLogic (Jun 8, 2011)

I am somewhat confused by some of the statements above. I think there are differing 'definitions' of the term "delicate" in this context.

Age-related: In almost all cases, hatchlings are less likely to survive anomalies in husbandry in comparison to larger specimens. Barring husbandry issues, hatchlings (or newborns of any higher organism) are susceptible to greater numbers and more varied threats to survival than older specimens from suboptimal immune systems, less effective avoidance reactions, ineffective defense mechanisms, fewer learned behaviors, greater number of potential predators, etc. I doubt anyone would argue that a newborn human, given proper care, is as 'durable' as an adult. The same can be said of almost any other neonate.

Size-related: Simply stated, bigger is better! Fewer predators, less body temperature fluctution, more effective food gathering... Under ideal conditions a sulcata at one year of age will be larger and less 'fragile' than a russian under ideal conditions at three months of age - genetics plays a large (pun intended) role in determining fitness by size. Larger animals typically face fewer survival threats than smaller ones.

Species-related: Some species are simply more susceptible to survival threats at any age. This susceptibility is magnified in ex-situ husbandry conditions. Red-footed tortoises are almost bullet-proof and can survive wide deviations from optimal conditions for considerable duration. The same cannot be said, in general, for some other species such as _Manouria emys_ (hydration issues), _Pyxis spp._ (communicable disease issues), or _Manouria impressa_ (dietary issues).

Environment-related: Temperature ranges and gradient, predator densities and suitable habitat and food availability also could be considered when judging 'frailty'. Those species that are subjected to greater environmental pressures are generally more 'durable' than others. For example a tropical tort vs. a desert tort relative to predator density where the tropical tort may have a better hiding strategy or a desert tort's tolerance of temperature extremes vs. that of a tropical tort.

Last but not least, there is us, their keepers... Ignorance (lack of knowlege) is the key problem. This doesn't, per se, make the tortoise any more or less delicate but it certainly can compound any idiosyncracies they may already have. Misinformation or incomplete information is another killer. The fact that tortoises can survive for long periods of time without food or water doesn't mean they can do so on one meal/drink every week or month. It is only true if the tortoise had sufficient reserves to do so from extended periods of regularly feeding/drinking prior to the fasting.

So, is there a 'delicate' phase? I think so. In some it is just a phase and passes with age or size. In others, it is a continuous challenge to create and maintain 'ideal conditions' to obviate as much of the delicateness as is possible.


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## Kristina (Jun 8, 2011)

Art, couldn't have said it better myself. It is easy for someone that has been keeping tortoises for years to say that there is no delicate stage, because as Yvonne said, after a time you just get a "feel" for what is right. You are less likely to make beginner mistakes and also more likely to identify problems early on.

Another reason I recommend that new tortoise owners start with older youngsters is the simple fact that sometimes you can do everything right and still lose them. It is heartbreaking. I recently lost one of my babies. I did EVERYTHING right, and I can say that without hesitation. I tried every trick in the book, and that baby still failed. Is it my fault? No. I really don't believe it is. You all have seen pictures of my other babies. They are in fantastic shape, growing healthily and smooth.

My point is, if it had been my very FIRST tortoise, not only would I be extremely upset, I would most likely be blaming myself. I don't want to see people go through that either.

To answer the initial question, typically I feel the hardier species, such as Sulcatas, Redfoots and Russians are out of the woods at 6 months of age. More sensitive species, that is completely dependent on the owner.


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## Tim/Robin (Jun 8, 2011)

Very well said Art. However, I think like Gary. I do not believe that hatchlings are "delicate". They are programmed for survival. Yes it is true, not all survive, but that is true with every living thing. Hatchling tortoises are amazing critters. In their native, natural surroundings they do not rely or need any one to survive. In captivity, they need their basic needs met. They need daily attention, but what captive/domestic animal doesn't? Gary said it nicely, they have less body mass and therefore will starve faster, dehydrate quicker, overheat easier, etc. IF set up correctly, hatchlings will thrive. Are they for a beginner, absolutely!! IF the beginner has prepared themselves and knows what care is required for the hatchling prior to getting it. Does an older tortoise ensure success for a beginner, absolutely not. I will say, some species require more in the way of set up and care, and therefore can be more difficult for a beginner, whether adult of hatchling.


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