# Proper Testudo enclosure size



## Unique Username (Sep 25, 2020)

What is the proper indoor enclosure size for the common testudo(russian, hermanns, greek)? Over the years I have seen multiple recomendations for size from the good old 4x8 to the 2x3 as a minimum. But what does a tort really need? We all know the saying bigger is always better. Yet there are always limiting factors.


I am looking to make an argument for the "optimal" enclosure size for a testudo tort. When I say optimal I mean what both meets the need of the tort, and the keeper. First and foremost I will say I dont think it's a 4x8. While this is a great enclosure to have most people cant source it, move it, or fit it in their house. The only reason why this size is recommended/well known is because that's what the size of a sheet of plywood is. On the other side something like a 2x3 is simply to small. To make the proper heat gradients and fit the proper dishes in you simply need more room. Dont get me started on glass aquariums we all know the problems they can cause.


Now to be optimal we need to consider a few factors, what the tort needs (heat gradient, food and water dishes, hides, and a basking spot) but we also need to consider the reality of the keeper (space in house, availability of enclosure, and price). The torts needs are pretty simple, but I want to talk about something. Torts aren't that smart. They are goofy little guys who cant exactly assign value to things. By this I mean they dont assign value to space the same as we do. Provide the same food and care to two different tortoises in two drastically different size enclosures. Say a 3x6 and a 4x16 foot. And the one in the larger enclosure isnt exactly going to brag to his friends about his big house. They dont care. Of course more space provides more opportunity for enrichment but we cant all exactly make an entire guest bedroom into an enclosure.


For the keeper it needs to be realistic. We all see the individuals who keep the torts in small glass aquariums and cringe. Yet this is a common problem because it's simply availible. What else can they use. You cant exactly go to walmart and buy a tort enclosure. That being said you actually can go to walmart online and buy a zoomed tort enclosure for a little over 100 bucks. But the zoomed enclosure isnt much better. It's simply too small and to exspensive for what it is. But it brings up something that is also a factor to look into. Open table top or closed chambers?


Closed chambers get a bad rap for being dangerous. The thing is they are... if done incorrectly. They keep the heat and humidity inside but at night if the heat drops dramatically and the humidity stays high well... bad things can happen. Yet tort tables are almost just as bad, they retain no heat or humidity and unless you want to heat an entire room in your house you are out of luck. In my opinion closed chambers are the way to go. You just need to make sure that you operate them correctly. To do so all you need is a che with a thermomator at night and either plenty of optional vent holes or a partially removable acrylic face for both viewing and to let heat out when needed.


In my opinion, the best enclosure for a testudo is a 4x4x2 closed chamber with both a basking and a che and a removable partially acrylic face for eassy access and venting on hot days. I believe 4x4 is large enough for hides,dishes,basking spot etc with enough left over room to roam. I chose a 4x4 instead of say a longer 3x6 for one major reason. Availability. To make say a 3x6 yourself you would need atleast 3 sheets of plywood. And the cost would be simulare to a 4x8. While a 4x4x2 you only need two sheets of plywood and for the fram it would only take 5 2x4s. All of which can be purchased and cut at a local store like lowes and home depot. If you dont have the proper tools to assemble the enclosure you can also rent these tools at said stores. But one problem arises, wood and moist dirt dont mix. So what do you do? Pond liners and tarps are good options, but I have used industrial grade/thick painters plastic for years with no issues. I simply use a 1x2 board and bolt it to the wall to hold up the plastic and wola. Semi permanent water proof lining that can remove all the dirt at once. This plastic can also be bought at lowes or home depot.


There are multiple other odds and ends that go into a tortoise enclosure (lights, dishes, basking rock, hides) but I wanted to make this post to start a debate before pricing and making a how to guide on it. I estimate entire enclosure to cost around 200 when all said and done with lights,substrate etc. Let me know your thoughts and counter ideas. Note I am looking to make a guide so just disagreeing with me with no solution is very unhelpful.


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## Srmcclure (Sep 25, 2020)

With all honesty, I think the 8x4 is optimal. They need lots of room to roam and its just not fair to confine the animal to a smaller space. These are considered exotic animals. That alone should put up a flag that says these will require more work and specialized equipment/enclosures. There are grow tents that you can use for closed chambers that allow for larger sizes, you can also build your own closed chamber with melamine and sealant. These tortoise use every inch of the enclosures we put them in, so 4x4 is kind of sad if its not a baby. My 3x6 enclosures only cost me $89.

I feel like if you can't offer that space, these aren't the animals for the potential owner. 

There is also an amazing care guide for these animals on this site already by someone who has been doing this for decades and any other care guide that is posted i feel should be as comprehensive as that one. Im not trying to shoot down your efforts at all. Just letting you know in case you weren't aware.


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## Unique Username (Sep 25, 2020)

Srmcclure said:


> With all honesty, I think the 8x4 is optimal. They need lots of room to roam and its just not fair to confine the animal to a smaller space. These are considered exotic animals. That alone should put up a flag that says these will require more work and specialized equipment/enclosures. There are grow tents that you can use for closed chambers that allow for larger sizes, you can also build your own closed chamber with melamine and sealant. These tortoise use every inch of the enclosures we put them in, so 4x4 is kind of sad if its not a baby. My 3x6 enclosures only cost me $89.
> 
> I feel like if you can't offer that space, these aren't the animals for the potential owner.
> 
> There is also an amazing care guide for these animals on this site already by someone who has been doing this for decades and any other care guide that is posted i feel should be as comprehensive as that one. Im not trying to shoot down your efforts at all. Just letting you know in case you weren't aware.



No I understand the criticism, and I dont intend on making a full care guide, but rather a guide on how to make an affordable enclosure that a tortoise could thrive in. People always recomend a 4x8 but dont have any recomendation on how to get one besides building it yourself. Also not to many comprehensive guides that I I atleast on how to build a 4x8. I believe the 4x8 is a great enclosure and is what I primarily use. I simply believe that 4x4 is more feasible for the average owner. Also again the 4x8 recomendation is based on one thing and one thing only. The full size of a sheet of plywood. Larger then 4x8 would be even better but it's not feasible for most owners. That's why the standerd isnt something like 4x12. I would guarentee you if the industry changed the standerd sheet of plywood to 3x8 the recomendation would change with it. That's where I still see some problems with the 4x8 it's still too large for the average consumer. For the tortoise they dont really care about the space. They just need enough room for temp gradients, food, water, etc... it doesn't matter to them the size, proper food and temp is what matters for health, they dont have the brain capacity to assign value to space. I believe that 4x4 is large enough to make the heat gradient. It is much easier to make that heat gradiant with a 4x8 but it sure is doable with a 4x4. To the tortoise it doesn't matter, they just do 1.5 laps instead of 1 to go the same distance.


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## Blackdog1714 (Sep 25, 2020)

It is simple confine yourself to one room say 10x10 for two weeks then discuss the downsizing. My Russian has a 13’ by 3’ outdoor pen that has patrol paths from daily rounds. I am prepping a 10’x40’ for my 2 year old leopard for next year. If people really love something that make space for it look a model train people?


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## Unique Username (Sep 25, 2020)

Blackdog1714 said:


> It is simple confine yourself to one room say 10x10 for two weeks then discuss the downsizing. My Russian has a 13’ by 3’ outdoor pen that has patrol paths from daily rounds. I am prepping a 10’x40’ for my 2 year old leopard for next year. If people really love something that make space for it look a model train people?



Your personifying the tortoise. They dont have the mental capacity to assign value to space. Just because the larger space makes us humans feel better it doesn't mean squat to the tortoise. Space is space it's not a good thing nor a bad thing to them. So even though bigger is better I believe a 4x4x2 closed chamber is optimal because it both meets the requirements of the tortoise and the keeper.


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## Srmcclure (Sep 25, 2020)

Unique Username said:


> Your personifying the tortoise. They dont have the mental capacity to assign value to space. Just because the larger space makes us humans feel better it doesn't mean squat to the tortoise. Space is space it's not a good thing nor a bad thing to them. So even though bigger is better I believe a 4x4x2 closed chamber is optimal because it both meets the requirements of the tortoise and the keeper.


Just because it meets the requirements doesn't mean its right... i can meet the requirements of a goldfish in a 2 gallon tank. Doesnt mean its a good setup or fair for the animal. I think thats the controversy you're going to get here. Just because you can get the temps right and all that doesn't mean its optimal. It means its bearable/liveable. Optimal means best. Best is not 4x4. I think you'll get a lot of push back on here for that. The keeper should be able to provide these for the animal, or not get the animal. So optimal for the owner should still be what is best for the tort otherwise we are just giving our animals sub-par care.


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## Unique Username (Sep 25, 2020)

Srmcclure said:


> Just because it meets the requirements doesn't mean its right... i can meet the requirements of a goldfish in a 2 gallon tank. Doesnt mean its a good setup or fair for the animal. I think thats the controversy you're going to get here. Just because you can get the temps right and all that doesn't mean its optimal. It means its bearable/liveable. Optimal means best. Best is not 4x4. I think you'll get a lot of push back on here for that. The keeper should be able to provide these for the animal, or not get the animal. So optimal for the owner should still be what is best for the tort otherwise we are just giving our animals sub-par care.



Exactly, "what is optimal for the owner should still be what is best for the tort" what proof is there that a larger space is at all better for the tortoise and doesn't just make the keeper feel better? We cant exactly ask them. There is no definitive proof that torts do better in larger spaces. We just assume bigger is better because it allows for more enrichment. Yet how much entichment do they need? Because they live so long and are so hardy it's hard to do studies on longevitity and prosperity of torts in different environments. So is the larger space really better for the tort or to make us fell better about having them. If we all cant provide 10 x 30 outdoor enclosures year round should we just not have a tortoise? No that would be ludicrous. There is a number out there of square footage that is optimal for a tortoise, one that provides enough space for everything they need to thrive. It is most defenitly not a 4x8. Again 4x8 is just an arbitrary number that was provided to tortoise owners buy lumber companies. The magic number of square footage probably isnt 4x4 either, could be smaller, could be larger. But 4x4 is most likely slightly more than enough space then what is needed but is also easy for the owner to provide. I believe there is no difference to the tortoise between a 4x4 and a 4x8. It just makes the owner feel better. If there is good food, heating, water and room to roam what exactly else are we providing? More Room to rome? Again instead of doing one lap around the enclosure they do 1.5 to move the same distance.


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## pawsplus (Sep 26, 2020)

Obviously bigger is better. That said, it depends on the tortoise. My redfoot, darn her, spends much of her time in her 10x40 foot, planted and perfectly appointed outdoor pen, in warm, humid TN weather, in her house! She gets out and uses it some, but I sometimes feel as if it's wasted on her. Her indoor pen, for the winter and the nights, is 4x6. I am contemplating a 3x6 addition to it, but honestly, she seems perfectly fine in the one she has. Again, despite perfect temps and 70-90% humidity, she spends a lot of time either in her hide or just wandering slowly. I do not feel that she needs more necessarily.

But some tortoises, and some species, are more active.


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