# Squiggly Lines and Pyramiding



## Tom (Oct 11, 2010)

irEric posted pics of his greek tortoise recently and was asking about the little squiggly lines that we sometimes see in young, growing torts. As I answered him I had one of those lightbulb moments. The only time I see these squiggly lines in my baby sulcatas is when they have been out in their sunning enclosure in the hot, dry air for an hour or two. I don't see them when they are in their humid enclosure in the humid reptile room with their humid hide box and their regularly sprayed wet shells. The best analogy that I can think of is: When you submerge a clear, plain glass under water it more or less disappears. But when you lift the glass out of the water it is plainly visible. These little squiggly tubes seem to disappear when the shell is wet and well hydrated.

Is it possible that little torts have tiny "water channels" running though their little pliable young scutes? If you stacked lots of these channels on top of each other, layer upon layer, after months or years of growth, you would end up with that spongey-looking honeycomb structure that we've seen in cross sections of pyramided tortoise shells. Maybe these "channels" act as a water reservoir to hydrate the scutes from the inside.

I'm betting that this also has to do with pyramiding. So frustrating. So many unanswered questions and no real way to get answers.


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## Az tortoise compound (Oct 11, 2010)

I have noticed the lines you're talking about, but only pronounced in a clutch of sulcatas we had (incubating) where the thermometer had broken and wasn't reading properly (got too hot for an extended period). It took 6-8 months to "smooth" out. They have not had any long term pyramidding issues.
I haven't noticed any fluctuation day-day with any hatchlings we have.


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## Tom (Oct 11, 2010)

Az tortoise compound said:


> I have noticed the lines you're talking about, but only pronounced in a clutch of sulcatas we had (incubating) where the thermometer had broken and wasn't reading properly (got too hot for an extended period). It took 6-8 months to "smooth" out. They have not had any long term pyramidding issues.
> I haven't noticed any fluctuation day-day with any hatchlings we have.



Do you move them in and out of areas with drastically different humidity and moisture levels? The only time I ever see it is when they are out in the hot, dry air sunning. As soon as I spray or soak them and their carapace gets wet the lines quickly disappear.


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## ChiKat (Oct 12, 2010)

Are you talking about these lines?


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## Az tortoise compound (Oct 12, 2010)

THe little ones get some sun when I am out watering the yard so they are never too far away from moisture. That might be why I havn't noticed it.


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## moswen (Oct 12, 2010)

oh no way katie i have never seen those before, is that what you guys were talking about? i was at a loss until i saw that pic... that's really quite awesome if you ask me! keep going tom... answer all our tortoise mysteries, and do it fast!


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## Tom (Oct 12, 2010)

ChiKat said:


> Are you talking about these lines?



Yes. Exactly. But they look just a little different on my sulcatas or irEric's greek.


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## kbaker (Oct 13, 2010)

Ok, guys - time to throw you another curve ball...
I have seen these lines often on my young tortoises over the years. The ones that are most noticable are the tortoises that have recovered from being soft or have taken a long time to firm up. I've always assumed it was from putting a large amount of calcium/structure back into the shell. From my experience, I don't see the relationship to pyramiding. As for heat and dryness, it might have something to do with it. I tend to keep mine on the warm side/plenty of basking heat. With heat, you get drying. You can also see from the Russian pics that water on the shell does not make them any less visiable.

At this point, I don't associate it with anything bad, but rather as a good sign that the shell is stronger.

Has anyone seen these lines with tortoise that has a soft shell?


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## Tracy Gould (Oct 13, 2010)

Shelbys as got these little patterns too but u can hardly see them they are that fine, but i have been following this forum since i got her and knew about humidity and spraying them so i bet u have hit the nail on the head Tom dehydration is going to have an effect on the shell like our skin if we get dehydrated we get dry flaky skin these guys are going to have some sort of pore to absord moister if they get to dry they are going to expand to try an collect more i bet that is what these lines are


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## froghaven5 (Oct 13, 2010)

This is interesting. I took a really close look at our little sulcata baby before soaking him this morning and could just barely see some squiggles at the base of his shell. Can't see them after soaking.


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## Tom (Oct 13, 2010)

kbaker said:


> Ok, guys - time to throw you another curve ball...
> I have seen these lines often on my young tortoises over the years. The ones that are most noticable are the tortoises that have recovered from being soft or have taken a long time to firm up. I've always assumed it was from putting a large amount of calcium/structure back into the shell. From my experience, I don't see the relationship to pyramiding. As for heat and dryness, it might have something to do with it. I tend to keep mine on the warm side/plenty of basking heat. With heat, you get drying. You can also see from the Russian pics that water on the shell does not make them any less visiable.
> 
> At this point, I don't associate it with anything bad, but rather as a good sign that the shell is stronger.
> ...



Curveballs are good. That's why we are in the debatable section.

I'm not saying that this is for sure related to pyramiding, I'm just wondering if it is. Seems like a strong likelihood to me, especially given my recent thread on sponginess. It seems the shell dryness has a lot to do with causing pyramiding and since I only see these lines on my sulcata babies when they are outside, drying out in the sun, well... it seems like its probably all related, you know? I wish I had a few million dollars to fund the research to figure it out, but not yet...


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## Terry Allan Hall (Oct 13, 2010)

Tom said:


> irEric posted pics of his greek tortoise recently and was asking about the little squiggly lines that we sometimes see in young, growing torts. As I answered him I had one of those lightbulb moments. The only time I see these squiggly lines in my baby sulcatas is when they have been out in their sunning enclosure in the hot, dry air for an hour or two. I don't see them when they are in their humid enclosure in the humid reptile room with their humid hide box and their regularly sprayed wet shells. The best analogy that I can think of is: When you submerge a clear, plain glass under water it more or less disappears. But when you lift the glass out of the water it is plainly visible. These little squiggly tubes seem to disappear when the shell is wet and well hydrated.
> 
> Is it possible that little torts have tiny "water channels" running though their little pliable young scutes? If you stacked lots of these channels on top of each other, layer upon layer, after months or years of growth, you would end up with that spongey-looking honeycomb structure that we've seen in cross sections of pyramided tortoise shells. Maybe these "channels" act as a water reservoir to hydrate the scutes from the inside.
> 
> I'm betting that this also has to do with pyramiding. So frustrating. So many unanswered questions and no real way to get answers.



Makes sense!


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## egyptiandan (Oct 13, 2010)

I'm afraid scute material isn't honeycombed, even on a pyramided tortoise. The scutes conform to the bone underneath, which can become more honeycombed. I have scutes here from both pyramided and smooth tortoises and they are the same thickness. 
Scute material is hard and impermeable to prevent a tortoise from dehydrating. It doesn't let water in and more importantly it doesn't let water out. It's there to protect the living bone underneath.

Danny


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## Annieski (Oct 13, 2010)

egyptiandan said:


> I'm afraid scute material isn't honeycombed, even on a pyramided tortoise. The scutes conform to the bone underneath, which can become more honeycombed. I have scutes here from both pyramided and smooth tortoises and they are the same thickness.
> Scute material is hard and impermeable to prevent a tortoise from dehydrating. It doesn't let water in and more importantly it doesn't let water out. It's there to protect the living bone underneath.
> 
> Danny



Thank You Danny!


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## Tom (Oct 13, 2010)

egyptiandan said:


> I'm afraid scute material isn't honeycombed, even on a pyramided tortoise. The scutes conform to the bone underneath, which can become more honeycombed. I have scutes here from both pyramided and smooth tortoises and they are the same thickness.
> Scute material is hard and impermeable to prevent a tortoise from dehydrating. It doesn't let water in and more importantly it doesn't let water out. It's there to protect the living bone underneath.
> 
> Danny



So you are saying that the actual "pyramids" are made up of the underlying bone and the scute is just a thin covering over the top?

Also, if its totally impermeable, as I too used to think it was, why do my leopards shells "deflate" in the hot dry air when they are outside sunning and then re-inflate once they are back in the soaking tub with a wet shell in the humid room?

You know that I'm very willing to listen to you and learn from your experience, but I need you to explain these two phenomenons that I'm seeing.

1. Why do I only see the squigglies after they've been in the sun for a while and their shells are all dried out, but not when they are indoors in their humid enclosures, even when their shells are dry inside?

2. How do you explain the spongy quality of my Leopards shells if they are totally impermeable? Dean and Cory have both witnessed this first hand on my tortoises, so its not just me or an optical illusion due to the water on the shell.

I don't want the tone of this post to sound the wrong way. I am asking you because I respect you and you are one of the most knowledgeable, experienced people on the forum. (No offense to our other seasoned keepers.)



So glad you decided to chime in. You've told us that you don't think it has anything to do with humidity or pyramiding because its damp where you live. Can you offer an explanation of why this only appears on my baby sulcatas when they have been out in the hot dry air for an hour or two? Also why it disappears after soaking and shell spraying for a few minutes? See, where I am its not damp all the time. In fact its really really dry all the time, except in my reptile room and indoor tortoise enclosures, where these lines never appear. The longer they are out, the more pronounced and visible the lines become.

Now that would really help renew my lightbulb.


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## egyptiandan (Oct 14, 2010)

That's exactly what I'm saying  The scute is just a thin layer covering the underlying bone. It is very very thin in a hatchling tortoise.

The "deflating" and "inflating" sounds to me like your Leopards are getting dehydrated in the sun and rehydrating when soaked. As you've noticed hatchling can dehydrate very quickly. It can be seen in the "deflating" as the bones in the carapace are mostly cartilage in a hatchling. Cartilage holds lots of water and does swell up and deflate with how hydrated the tortoise is. This in turn would show up on how the carapace looks with a hydrate animal and a dehydrated animal.
Hatchling can dehydrate and conversely rehydrate very quickly, making changes to the carapace more noticable.
The lines on the scute are more noticable when dry, but are still there when wet. They just aren't as noticable.

Danny


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## Tom (Oct 14, 2010)

egyptiandan said:


> That's exactly what I'm saying  The scute is just a thin layer covering the underlying bone. It is very very thin in a hatchling tortoise.
> 
> The "deflating" and "inflating" sounds to me like your Leopards are getting dehydrated in the sun and rehydrating when soaked. As you've noticed hatchling can dehydrate very quickly. It can be seen in the "deflating" as the bones in the carapace are mostly cartilage in a hatchling. Cartilage holds lots of water and does swell up and deflate with how hydrated the tortoise is. This in turn would show up on how the carapace looks with a hydrate animal and a dehydrated animal.
> Hatchling can dehydrate and conversely rehydrate very quickly, making changes to the carapace more noticable.
> ...



Thank you Danny.

I did not know that that was bone sticking up in highly pyramided torts. I thought it was primarily keratinous scute material. Much will be learned (at least by me) as soon as I come across a dead pyramided tortoise.

Another question about the baby leopards. Each scute in the baby leopards actually sinks in when they are out in the sun, almost like reverse pyramiding. After 5-10 minutes back in the water and humid air, each scute puffs back up into "normal" shape. If the shell is an impermeable membrane, and they aren't drinking (they never do in the soaks)(well that's not true, they did drink the day I picked them up and soaked them for the first time and some of them drank again during their second soak that day, but none of them have drunk in a soak since then. I do see them drink in their enclosure, however.)... and they aren't drinking in their soaking water, then how does the shell "puff" back up so quickly? I remember in Biology classes that some animals to have one-way permeable membranes. In other words fluids CAN pass one way, but not the other. We actually went so far as to study the cell structure that made this possible. Is it possible that our little baby torts have something similar?


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## Tracy Gould (Oct 14, 2010)

I think they do they have to have a way of taking in the moisture otherwise the misting and soaking would not have any effect yer i know they take in water though there skin but their shell reacts to spraying them so i think they have cells that take in water.


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## terrypin (Oct 20, 2010)

hi i have been breeding for a little over 20 years now and the first tim ei ever saw these lines was when i attempted to give some of my first hatchlings access to uvb.i had no computer then and living on a small island all i had for reference really was the local library.i didnt think i could put my hatchlings outdoors at first because they needed to be warm so mine never saw any real uvb.i couldnt even find uvb tubes locally and it was some time before i eventually found a supplier for trulite tubes.the information i had read was to place the hatchlings under a sun lamp for about 20 minutes a day while protecting their eyes.it was only after doing this that i first saw these squiggly lines they reminded me of the salt deposits on your shoes after they dry when you have walked along the beach getting them wet.i later only noticed this with my hatchlings after they first had access to sunlinght .possibly the tubes i had by then didnt give out enough uvb.now of course all my hatchlings have access outdoors from day one so i can so i dont really notice the lines appear.
terry


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## PeanutbuttER (Oct 21, 2010)

I was cleaning my little redfoot tonight (I think she has shell rot, but so far it hasn't responded to treatments which is disappointing...) and I noticed that she had some of these on her plastron, but not the carapace. This was right before I began cleaning. As I was looking at the pictures on this thread before posting this I noticed that generally the "squiggly"s are on exclusively light colored scute material , without crossing over into the dark material. Additonally, the examples in this thread have been on light colored tortoises, sulcatas, a greek and a russian. I haven't heard anyone else make this observation yet, so I thought I would point it out. Who knows, maybe its important and maybe its not. 

I'll post some pictures of her plastron tomorrow or the day after just to verify that they're the same "squiggly"s.


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## Edna (Oct 21, 2010)

PeanutbuttER said:


> Additonally, the examples in this thread have been on light colored tortoises, sulcatas, a greek and a russian. I haven't heard anyone else make this observation yet, so I thought I would point it out.
> 
> My Hermann, Torty, is just as squiggly as he can be, visible full time, even after soaking, even after a long night sleeping in warm wet stbstrate. True, the squiggles are only visible in the light colored portions of his shell, but I think the same phenomenon is present all over his shell and is merely obscured in the dark areas. One thing that all these squiggled torts seem to have in common is a period of rapid growth. Edna


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## dmmj (Oct 21, 2010)

Who knew tortoises could wrinkle?


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## PeanutbuttER (Oct 21, 2010)

TortyQueen said:


> PeanutbuttER said:
> 
> 
> > Additonally, the examples in this thread have been on light colored tortoises, sulcatas, a greek and a russian. I haven't heard anyone else make this observation yet, so I thought I would point it out.
> ...


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## Balboa (Oct 26, 2010)

I could've sworn I remembered learning that Torts/Turts can drink through their skin in school. Of course that was still the stone age by modern standards. A little digging right now brought up some references to Torts drinking through their Cloaca. Maybe they just didn't want to tell us the Torts drank through their butts back then. lol

It did turn up an interesting article that may have some relevance to the inflating/deflating thing. I'll give my usual Newb sorry if its common knowledge or long disproven spiel.

Role of urinary and cloacal bladders in chelonian water economy: historical and comparative perspectives.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9951413

For some reason the squiggles make me think of the stress lines, deformations I frequently get in a nail after smashing my finger (something I do WAAAY too often) making me think of them as possibly just a cute fluke of how the scutes grow. Which also reminds me of something I'd largely forgotten about that may be pyramiding related. ON one occasion I smashed a finger so bad that for years the nail grew out bumpy, like a pyramided shell. I'd somehow damaged the root and the nail kept coming out bent up and down like waves. Over the years the waves kept getting smaller and smaller, and now that nail just grows out with a flat spot. Seems to tie in somehow with the damage done early on by being too dry idea with torts.

Terrypin's observations make me wonder about a possible UV roll as well. I'm not sure about the biology of course, but we do the D thing in our skin under the sun... and from Dan's explanation I'm getting that there is no skin between the bone and the scute on a tort? or if so very thin? There needs to be capillaries to carry the materials to and from the D producing cells. Where are those cells? The Scute? The Bone? 

Cool Stuff, and dang I spend too much time thinkin

rofl @myself

just read through the Mythbusters thread, so no cloaca drinkin either, poor deprived torts.


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## Tom (Oct 26, 2010)

Now we're doing some thinking! Very good questions. Exactly where does D3 synthesis take place? I always thought it was the skin, but does it happen on the shell too?

BTW, I'm not so sure that no absorption takes place in the cloaca. Despite what that study says. 

Your post sounds just like the stuff that runs through my head every day. Made me laugh too.


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## Badgemash (Oct 26, 2010)

Unfortunately the only way to find out with certainty what these structures are would be to look at thin sections in microscopes. Aside from the ethical quandary that presents I just don't have the stomach (and I doubt many biologists would) to euthanize otherwise healthy hatchlings to make these kinds of observations. 

I think everyone is on the right track with these observations, but at this point the data is too scant to make an interpretation. Maybe a post could be put up in the general forum asking for photos of the torts scute lines and the environmental conditions they're seen in? Perhaps once we have more information a pattern will present itself.

-Devon


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