# Do we need entertainment this badly?



## Candy (Feb 24, 2010)

Has anyone heard about the killing at Sea World in Orlando Florida? It was one of the most experienced trainers of Killer Whales that they had. She was only 40 years old. It makes you wonder if we need this kind of entertainment this badly. I myself do not and would rather see them in the wild and not see them trapped in captivity like they are for our own human amusement. 

Here's the story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ap_on_re_us/us_seaworld_death


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## terracolson (Feb 24, 2010)

i know i read that earlier..

its so sad.. 
that woman saw shamu at 9 years old, had a dream to train whales, achieved it and died by it.


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## dmmj (Feb 24, 2010)

so do we outlaw it?


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## terracolson (Feb 24, 2010)

why do we have killer whales there anyway? is it just for show?


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## Tom (Feb 24, 2010)

They are called Killer Whales for a reason. I know one of the pioneers of Killer Whale training. He invented and trained a bunch of the tricks that they still use today. He quit in 1984. When I asked him why he quit, he said "because I didn't want to die in a wet suit". He's a dog trainer now.

Same thing with polar bears. You work them long enough, you will die.


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## Candy (Feb 24, 2010)

I agree with you Roachman. We need to stop funding this kind of entertainment with such dangerous animals. It's not worth the outcome.


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## tortoisenerd (Feb 24, 2010)

Yes, for show. The show goes on about how in the wild these "beasts" eat seal lions whole but in captivity they can train them to do tricks...as a kid I loved it but now that I am an adult I'm not so sure I'm a fan of animals put on show...even kinda iffy on zoos (depends on the type and circumstances of the animals).


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## Tom (Feb 24, 2010)

Candy said:


> I agree with you Roachman. We need to stop funding this kind of entertainment with such dangerous animals. It's not worth the outcome.



I don't disagree with keeping them in captivity, if its done correctly, which, at Sea World, it most certainly is. I have seen it with my own two eyes and I know people that work there. It think its a cushy life for an animal that would otherwise have a tough time out in the wild. I also think it is a great educational tool. How many little kids, like me and the trainer who was killed, were inspired by seeing the majesty of these incredible animals up close? It formed my personality and made we want to learn all about animals of all kinds.

I just don't understand why everyone is so shocked and surprised. Nobody is this shocked when a race car driver dies in a crash or a skydiver falls from the sky. Or when a cop is shot or a fireman caught in a blaze. These are all inherently dangerous activities and death is a likely outcome. Should we ban, or otherwise put a stop to, any activity where someone could be killed? If you look at the numbers, there are FAR more dangerous jobs than Killer Whale trainer.

I may have a different perspective on this as I've seen, and been involved in, many instances of large animals trying to kill people. Its just a risk you understand and take if you are going to work with them. You take every precaution to make it as safe as possible, but it is never 100% safe. I've had some very close calls. I just did a commercial with a grizzly bear two weeks ago. Nothing happened, but it could have. That's why I don't do it regularly. It paid well so I carefully considered the risk and chose to take it. I don't think the woman who died was any different. Things just didn't go her way. You might say, it was her time. One day, it will be mine... and YOURS. I, for one, would rather die doing something I love with all of my being, than die of some old age related, painful disease.


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## Meg90 (Feb 24, 2010)

Exactly Roachman---

Its like when people were HORRIFIED that Roy or Siegfried or whichever got dragged from the stage by his TIGER. Its a WILD animal for freaks sake! If you play with fire, odds are you will be burned at one time or another. The trainers all know its dangerous--they don't jump in thinking they are swimming with kittens.

That whale, whether it did it out of play, or hunting instincts, behaved exactly as it would have in the wild. Why should the animal be punished?

Did you read down in the article about the guy that sneaked past security and was found in that same whale's tank (dead) in 1999? Jeeze, what was he trying for? A Free Willy reenactment? That water is frigid (not to mention the several thousand lb animal swimming in it)! I'd have jumped in the dolphin tank myself.


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## stells (Feb 25, 2010)

Roachman... i am confused... you don't disagree with Killer Whales being keep in captivity... in small pool (compared to where they would be found in the wild)... but you started this thread about tortoises in debatable... http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-12010.html isn't that slightly contradictory?

I would much rather see them in the wild... the Whale was having a bad day from the off... so why interfere more than what was needed with him... leave alone... let him be.... he is a wild animal.... these people who work with these creatures know the risks... they chose their job... in captivity they aren't found in large pods like they would be in the wild... how is that fair on a social creature?

Makes no wonder he was having an off day...


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## Stephanie Logan (Feb 25, 2010)

I agree that the unfortunate trainer made a choice to work with Killer Whales. I am sure she understood the risks and was willing to accept them in order to live her dream...it is sad, but I'll bet when her family makes a public statement it will be that "she died doing what she loved", like Roachman said.


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## GBtortoises (Feb 25, 2010)

"not see them trapped in captivity like they are for our own human amusement."

First of all, I feel that the trainer knew the risks of the job that she chose. As do police officers, firemen, stuntmen and other people that sign on to potentially life threatening jobs. So while I think it's too bad that she (or anyone) loses their life like that, she obviously knew that it could happen at any moment.

I had to paraphrase the quote above when I saw it, not to pick on Candy at all but to ask these questions:

Aren't we all doing the same with tortoises and other wild animals? Aren't we really just keeping them for our own amusement? What makes keeping them more right than keeping a potentially dangerous animal in captivity if that is what amuses you?

Just curious how other people here feel about it and justify the difference, that's all.


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## chadk (Feb 25, 2010)

Right... I know some folks, especially the more elderly folks and those with young kids... who have very large tortoises that can get in a bad mood and are very capable of catching someone off guard and ramming them, causing injury or even death.

From another perspective... (from the PETA folks) There was an article recently where folks where trying to get dolphins classified as "non-human persons" because these types of animals are so intelligent and all that...


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## spikethebest (Feb 25, 2010)

i love to fly airplanes. if i could, i would be in an airplane 24/7. there are many risks in flying airplanes. i know those risks. i accept the fact that planes fall out of the sky and crash and people die. however, i still want to fly as much as possible. but everytime i get at the controls, i know the risks and the consequences of my actions (or lack of). i feel anyone who is that passionate about something knows this.


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## Yvonne G (Feb 25, 2010)

stells said:


> just to clarify... i meant are found in large pods not aren't... my typing failed me



Actually, Kelly, what you said was correct, "...in captivity they aren't found in large pods like they would be in the wild..."


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## egyptiandan (Feb 25, 2010)

Just pointed that out to her as she's telling me to delete the post. 

Danny


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## stells (Feb 25, 2010)

Sorry folks... head was elsewhere... still stick by what i said in my first post


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## Nay (Feb 25, 2010)

In what profession are there not risks? Even someone who sits at a desk all day gets in a car to drive to work,, or gets on a bike to get to work, etc. 
Not all of us are lucky to do, on a daily basis something we love to do.(Roachman???) If you find something you love you never work a day in your life.. I was, am still, in love with Steve Irwin.. He did some things that were questionable to many, BUT he raised so much awareness, that he inspired countless to take on the saving of our planets animals. He died doing what he loved and will be sorely missed. Yes this girl dies young, but I personally would like to die having done what I truly loved. Than to have been, like my grandparents who were working all day every day and although they may have been happy, they never seemed to enjoy life at all.
Animals in captivity are sometimes the scraficial lamb so to speak. Conservation efforts are usually maintained by some sort of entertainment. I may not know the numbers, but believe some of the profits of Sea World go towards conservation. 
And finally yes, I agree we are keeping torts for some type of entertainment, ours.
JMHO
Na


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## Candy (Feb 25, 2010)

I think people got a little off track in a couple of posts trying to make a point that the trainer has every right to do the job that makes her happy. That wasn't the point I was trying to get across in my thread. The point was that why must we put these creatures from the wild in captivity, can we not learn from them where they live in the wild? I remember when I was young watching Jacques Cousteau when he would be out at sea doing what he loved and learning about these animals in their own territory, but no now we have to make lots of money showing them doing tricks for us and our children. I want to educate my children with books and experiences not with shows like Sea World. If they don't see a live Killer Whale when they're young it's not going to hurt them. I mean chances are they won't see a wild Grizzly Bear either only on T.V. and that's probably a good thing (huh Roachman ). It's a show that's all. They don't get the valuable information that they need from that. I'm pretty sure Animal Planet can teach us more then what Sea World can. These are not to be kept in captivity for our amusement. Roachman I have to disagree with you that Sea World is the best at keeping these animals. Right now I just watched a program that states that this one whale was kept in the equivalent of a human bathtub for 30 years or more and that in the wild they will travel over 100 miles a day. How can you say that Sea World does right by them? I also learned that their lifespan is cut in half by keeping them in captivity. That was told by an expert of Killer Whales. I'm sure the trainers are probably very good to these animals, but that doesn't make captivity right. I am sicken by the stupid people that I heard on that program say that the animal should be put down for what he did. What about what the humans did. We captured this whale from New Zealand when it was a baby and it's been doing tricks and staying in a very small area for 30 years. It's got to stop.


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## Laura (Feb 25, 2010)

Its not all Entertainment.. Its Education.. its a risk.. just like driving to the store. 
A very good friend of mine trains and works with animals for conservation/education / commercials/movies etc.. he owns and works with lions tigers, bears, elephants etc.. guess what he was attacked by and hurt worse then any other wild animal... a DOG!!!!!!!!!!!!! yep.. mans best friend.. domesticated over thousands of years and that dog ripped him up good. Another friend of mine has a business, and his 5 kids were raised around all sorts of wild and exotics.. his son was attacked while walking down the street by 4 DOGS!


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## Candy (Feb 25, 2010)

I really don't need entertainment in my movies or T.V. that badly, but I guess that's just me.


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## chadk (Feb 25, 2010)

"that this one whale was kept in the equivalent of a human bathtub for 30 years or "

I want to know how big these people's bathtubs are 

Seriously... We have an extra large soaking tub with jets... and I still never use it since most of my body is left out of the water no mater how I contort... Maybe TMI... But you get my point - I'm fairly certain the whale had much more room than I do in my tub... Maybe a human bathroom is what they meant? Still don't buy it. Anyone have any pics of this tiny enclosure??


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## Laura (Feb 25, 2010)

I think they are comparing the ocean to the 'small' pools they live in at Sea World. I sure as hell cant swim in my bathtub or dive down and jump into the air and splash.. ( not a pretty picture...HA!)
In the wild, they NEED to swim for miles in search of food.. in captivity,, its handed to them.. They train them to keep them fit and mentally stimulated.


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## Stephanie Logan (Feb 25, 2010)

I think if you asked the staff at Sea World what they thought their purpose was in keeping animals in captivity, they would say that by getting people up close and personal with these animals they are hoping to enthrall and inspire the "audience" toward supporting conservation of marine animals.

I never really thought of zoo animals as being unfortunate for living in a captive environment. They have a predictable food supply, shelter from the elements, a comfortable temperature gradient, vet care for any illness or injury, no predators or alpha males pushing them out of a viable habitat...I guess one could argue that it's always better to leave animals to the capricious whims of nature, but I sure do enjoy observing exotic animals and learning about them.


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## Candy (Feb 25, 2010)

I would like for you guys to view where they are kept at Sea World like I did today. They showed the area and compared it to us in a bathtub. Lets be real do you think the area provided is adequate? They need a lot more area then what they have is my point. I don't think you can argue with that. If we rescue them (and this is a few peoples argument) then why not heal them and release them back in the wild? There are sanctuaries for these whales why not send them there instead? Money, that's why. It's all about money not education. You can educate yourself without Sea World. I feel the same way about someone keeping full grown Sulcata or a Aldabra in a 10' x 10' yard just because they rescued them. If you rescue something you give it what it needs closest to nature and that's not what they gave this whale.


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## ChiKat (Feb 25, 2010)

Even if the comparison of a human in a bathtub to a whale in the aquarium is inaccurate (as we can barely move in a bathtub) consider the whale's natural habitat- the ocean. An aquarium compared to the ocean.
To me that is the equivalent of locking one of us up in a room for the rest of our life. Yes we can move around and maybe run in a circle around the room. But it is obviously not enough space.
I'm with Candy on this one.
How is this educating people about whales if we aren't watching them in their natural habitat? How is taking your child to watch a whale perform tricks teaching them anything?


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## Candy (Feb 25, 2010)

Exactly Chikat. Maybe I didn't say it clearly enough. I just don't want to see trainers hurt, but I really don't want to see animals abused and in unnatural situations. I don't think that keeping tigers and elephants is humane either. I've got to admit though I did watch a special once with a man who raised two Grizzly Bear cubs because their mother was killed and they definitely would have died without care. This man raised them outdoors in a wooded area with lots of room to roam, and he also trains them for movies. One day he might get hurt, but he was the best I had ever seen with these animals. It's almost like he has a gift with them. That I didn't disagree with. In fact I loved watching how much he loved them.


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