# Two owner dilemma?



## ALDABRAMAN (Oct 29, 2015)

Here is an interesting situation. Person #1 purchased a large male sulcata three years ago. This sulcata escaped almost two years ago and was recently found across the street from where it originally escaped from. The tortoise again escaped and has been missing for about one month this time. Person #1 discovers the tortoise at the local animal control and goes down to claim his tortoise. The staff at the animal control tells person #1 that someone else (Person #2) has already put a claim on the tortoise and has pictures, etc. Person #1 also has pictures, etc. Animal control calls me and ask my opinion, it is clear that all pictures are of the same male sulcata. I offered this possible narrative, when the tortoise originally escaped from person #1, person #2 found the tortoise and decided that it is now his. Person #2 had the tortoise for about one year and then it escaped from him, that is when the neighbor of person #1 found the tortoise roaming his yard and calls person #1. The tortoise then escapes from person #1 again and this time is picked up by animal control. One fact that needs disclosed is person #1 and person #2 live within one mile of each other. One fact that puzzles me is that the final location of the tortoise when picked up by animal control was just over 23 miles away from both person #1 and person #2. Neither person #1 nor person #2 have a bill of sale, however the pictures they both provided are definitively the same tortoise.

Q: What would you do and why?


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## jaizei (Oct 29, 2015)

What did person 2 do after they found it originally? Did they report it 'found'? 

Does person 1 have pictures from the first time they owned it? I don't see many scenarios where person 2 has a good claim since person 1 was both the first and most recent owner.


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## wellington (Oct 29, 2015)

wow, this is a tuff one. I had written two different answers and as I reread them, I wasn't sure that would be a proper way to handle this. 
Can owner number one prove it was his first? 
Did owner number two do anything to try and find the rightful owner or did they just keep it, knowing it had to be someone's pet?
I think owner number one should get it. However, only after a proper, secured enclosure is made to insure no more further escapes.


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## GRohr (Oct 29, 2015)

I am shocked nobody picked up a foreign tortoise before it traveled 23 miles. I know my guys will move with some serious purpose when they want to but that is still a long way to go without somebody picking him up.

That is a tough question though. If person number two put in a found claim and number one didn't try hard enough to find his tortoise I think person 2 should be able to keep him. But if person 2 did not put in a found claim then the tort should return to person one. In either case I would recommend making sure the yard is tort proof first as it would truly be a crime if he gets out again and killed


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## dmmj (Oct 29, 2015)

is the owner number 2 under any legal or moral obligation to find the original owner? I don't think they are but I'm not a lawyer even though I play one on TV. I feel like as sad as it is for owner number one owner number 2 has the more legitimate claim


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## Yvonne G (Oct 29, 2015)

I think it belongs to person #1. Person #2 obviously didn't do enough to find the original owner at the time he found the tortoise.


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## dmmj (Oct 29, 2015)

if owner number 1 had not lost. It in the first place you know the rest....


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## Tom (Oct 29, 2015)

It should go to neither Person #1 nor Person #2. Neither of them are responsible enough to house a tortoise properly and neither of them seem to care to learn. I wouldn't let either of them have it.

The tortoise should go to a responsible person who will keep the darn thing contained.


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## Team Gomberg (Oct 29, 2015)

Wow. 

Will you keep us posted and let us know the outcome?

I think person #1 would get it if they have the earliest dated photos. 
I also wonder what person #2 did to try and find the tortoises owners before keeping him as their pet.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 29, 2015)

Tom said:


> It should go to neither Person #1 nor Person #2. Neither of them are responsible enough to house a tortoise properly and neither of them seem to care to learn. I wouldn't let either of them have it.
> 
> The tortoise should go to a responsible person who will keep the darn thing contained.



You just never know why or how they escape. It might have been something unavoidable - gardener left gate open, tortoise broke down fence, someone left garage door and door to back yard open.


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## Tom (Oct 29, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> You just never know why or how they escape. It might have been something unavoidable - gardener left gate open, tortoise broke down fence, someone left garage door and door to back yard open.



Yet somehow none of my 50 some odd tortoises are ever wandering the neighborhood…

There should be a small board across gate openings, like what you saw in my russian enclosures.

If the tortoise broke the fence down, they didn't build the fence correctly.


If it were up to me, I wouldn't let either of them have it.


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## Prairie Mom (Nov 2, 2015)

Where would something like this scenario even be settled? Small claims court?

---------------
I've actually wondered about this topic a bit. Our tortoise is a lost/unclaimed pet that we've had a year now. We found her in our neighborhood within walking distance of our house. I suspect she was abandoned because she was out in deadly weather conditions. We didn't put up "found" signs, but contacted animal control, the only reptile vet in town, and the humane society (the only other rescue here). Animal control even scanned her for a chip.

If the previous owner showed up out of the blue now, I wouldn't be willing to let her go. We would be fighting it out in court.


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## Foursteels (Nov 2, 2015)

It's no different than with a lost dog. It's considered a piece of property technically and thus should be returned to it's original owner.


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## dmmj (Nov 2, 2015)

Prairie Mom said:


> Where would something like this scenario even be settled? Small claims court?
> 
> ---------------
> I've actually wondered about this topic a bit. Our tortoise is a lost/unclaimed pet that we've had a year now. We found her in our neighborhood within walking distance of our house. I suspect she was abandoned because she was out in deadly weather conditions. We didn't put up "found" signs, but contacted animal control, the only reptile vet in town, and the humane society (the only other rescue here). Animal control even scanned her for a chip.
> ...


small claims can only decide monetary damages to decide property issues like this you have to go to court court.


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## jaizei (Nov 2, 2015)

Prairie Mom said:


> Where would something like this scenario even be settled? Small claims court?
> 
> ---------------
> I've actually wondered about this topic a bit. Our tortoise is a lost/unclaimed pet that we've had a year now. We found her in our neighborhood within walking distance of our house. I suspect she was abandoned because she was out in deadly weather conditions. We didn't put up "found" signs, but contacted animal control, the only reptile vet in town, and the humane society (the only other rescue here). Animal control even scanned her for a chip.
> ...




There really are different, interesting aspects that come into play. I think the fact that you made an effort (contacted animal control) and the length of time would probably be in your favor, there's usually a time period for the original owner to reclaim their property.


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## Prairie Mom (Nov 2, 2015)

dmmj said:


> small claims can only decide monetary damages to decide property issues like this you have to go to court court.


Good to know. Thanks!
To Civil court we would go...To Civil Court we would go...high-ho the merry-o...to civil court we would go!


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## Prairie Mom (Nov 2, 2015)

jaizei said:


> There really are different, interesting aspects that come into play. I think the fact that you made an effort (contacted animal control) and the length of time would probably be in your favor, there's usually a time period for the original owner to reclaim their property.


Your point of view here is comforting. Thanks for the reply!


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## Kapidolo Farms (Nov 2, 2015)

I tend to agree with Tom despite having so little of the story, about those 'escapes', which could have been pranksters, thievery, or some other foolery, not just poor enclosure security. I have to consider if they cared enough, any of them, they would have blanketed the area with lost posters and let animal control know, even local cops who patrol and might see it.

When my cat was pushed out while I was on an out of country vacation, the other house-mates all went silent and if not for the fear-of-Will I put in them it might have never been sorted out. My cat was taken some undisclosed distance away, but found his way back, Cats aren't tortoises, I know, but I left nothing to chance and put up fliers, checked all the shelters within several miles and bugged all my neighbors. If you care everyone within a reasonable distance will know by your own effort.

I don't know how the might help Greg come to any conclusion, but a history of attempted recovery from escape would weigh heavily.


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## RayRay (Nov 3, 2015)

My opinion aside.

Legally unless they are both being neglectful I believe it would go back to the first owner.


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## AnimalLady (Nov 3, 2015)

Forget Person #1 & #2, both seem unfit for this poor tort. Unless someone could provide me a bill of sale, i wouldnt give it back, nah uh.


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## Alaskamike (Nov 4, 2015)

If I were the shelter " decider". I would call both parties in for a discussion. 

To include 
- how long each had the tortoise and when they first had him 
- I would ask each person to defend / explain why they believe the tortoise should go back to them 
- ask how he is kept and what measures will be taken to keep him safe 
- do some quality of life / environment assessment of each. 

After a good discussion it would be pretty apparent where the tort should go. 

Honestly , neither person at this point has primary claim without debate. 

Let each make their case - then decide. Is it a small claims court case ? Maybe , depends on how adamant each is and reasonable. 
Mediation is certainly advised.


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## dmmj (Nov 4, 2015)

Will said:


> I tend to agree with Tom despite having so little of the story, about those 'escapes', which could have been pranksters, thievery, or some other foolery, not just poor enclosure security. I have to consider if they cared enough, any of them, they would have blanketed the area with lost posters and let animal control know, even local cops who patrol and might see it.
> 
> When my cat was pushed out while I was on an out of country vacation, the other house-mates all went silent and if not for the fear-of-Will I put in them it might have never been sorted out. My cat was taken some undisclosed distance away, but found his way back, Cats aren't tortoises, I know, but I left nothing to chance and put up fliers, checked all the shelters within several miles and bugged all my neighbors. If you care everyone within a reasonable distance will know by your own effort.
> 
> I don't know how the might help Greg come to any conclusion, but a history of attempted recovery from escape would weigh heavily.


would you classify it as tomfoolery?


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## Lyn W (Nov 4, 2015)

Alaskamike said:


> If I were the shelter " decider". I would call both parties in for a discussion.
> 
> To include
> - how long each had the tortoise and when they first had him
> ...



I would hope a home visit to both homes to actually see how he would be housed would be on the cards too.


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## Tom (Nov 4, 2015)

So let me get this straight…

If I leave my car somewhere with the keys in it, and say I blacked out and couldn't remember where for some reason. You find the car, don't find the owner and drive it around for a few months. Then one day you somehow lose the car.

While looking for my car, I discover it down at the impound lot. I try to finally get my car back, but you think it should somehow be your car now since you found it and were driving it around for a while? And the "authorities" might agree with you? This is crazy.

The person who paid for the tortoise originally owns the tortoise. Plain and simple. Whether we like them or think they are a responsible owner has nothing to do with who legally owns this property. If person number #1 found the tortoise in person #2's backyard being showered with love by a lovely loving family, its still person #1s tortoise. It was nice of person #2 to offer food, shelter and care to someone else's found tortoise for two years, but that doesn't make it their tortoise.


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## Prairie Mom (Nov 4, 2015)

Tom said:


> So let me get this straight…
> 
> If I leave my car somewhere with the keys in it, and say I blacked out and couldn't remember where for some reason. You find the car, don't find the owner and drive it around for a few months. Then one day you somehow lose the car.


I'm obviously so biased that I should just let everyone else debate it out. BUT-I've been looking into this a little and thankfully many states are adopting laws that do view this as a more complex situation than forgetting where you parked.

Here's a website about dogs that poses some good questions and interesting answers surrounding this topic... https://www.animallaw.info/intro/lost-dogs


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## Prairie Mom (Nov 4, 2015)

Since I posted about my tortoise earlier...
It is very likely that my tortoise was abandoned and this situation would never apply. We found her in a snowy road in 29*F and may have actually seen the person ditching her. My main concern has been whether or not she was stolen from her owner.

If her owner showed up now out of the blue, we would be in a situation that is similar to what is being described in this thread. Our family wouldn't be willing to let her go (again, unless she was stolen from a loving home). Just out of curiosity, I've been looking into our State's "animal at large" laws and it looks very likely that we would have a great case for maintaining ownership. I do want to put in a call to our animal control and confirm that one or two things were handled as they should have been.

Also-There is even a chance that the previous owner could be prosecuted for animal cruelty. My State has decent laws for pets (sorry livestock, you're screwed).

You might find this statute interesting:
*"(b) A person commits cruelty to animals if he has the charge and custody of 
any animal and unnecessarily fails to provide it with the proper food, drink or 
protection from the weather, or cruelly abandons the animal, or in the case of 
immediate, obvious, serious illness or injury, fails to provide the animal with 
appropriate care." *


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## Tom (Nov 4, 2015)

Prairie Mom said:


> I'm obviously so biased that I should just let everyone else debate it out. BUT-I've been looking into this a little and thankfully many states are adopting laws that do view this as a more complex situation than forgetting where you parked.
> 
> Here's a website about dogs that poses some good questions and interesting answers surrounding this topic... https://www.animallaw.info/intro/lost-dogs



I doubt this will be an issue for you because I doubt your tortoise will be out wandering the streets and picked up by animal control.

Further, about this pictorial proof offered by person number two in the OP. A sulcata is a sulcata. They change in appearance over time. If you took one of mine for two years and then showed it to me again, there is no way I could say with 100% certainty that it was mine. Unless it had some sort of distinct scar or a particularly unusual split scute or deformity of some sort.


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## Prairie Mom (Nov 4, 2015)

Tom said:


> I doubt this will be an issue for you because I doubt your tortoise will be out wandering the streets and picked up by animal control.
> 
> Further, about this pictorial proof offered by person number two in the OP. A sulcata is a sulcata. They change in appearance over time. If you took one of mine for two years and then showed it to me again, there is no way I could say with 100% certainty that it was mine. Unless it had some sort of distinct scar or a particularly unusual split scute or deformity of some sort.


Good points. The photos would be interesting to know more about.


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