# Tom's Pyramiding Theories



## Tom (Feb 9, 2010)

I've been trying, and failing, to solve this mystery since my first sulcatta in the early 90's. I've seen a lot of stuff as my job takes me all over the world and the country. I frequently stay for weeks or months in far off places and work 12-16 hour days, six days a week with local crew members. Then spend our one day off hanging out with them too. This gives me a lot of time to get to know them and about their torts. The last year or so, I've been working in Louisiana a lot. Mostly in and around New Orleans. Some of the tortoise enthusiasts on the crew were from Southern Florida as well as the locals. I could not find a pyramided tortoise any where in Louisiana or Southern Florida, unless it was raised indoors, in the A/C in a dry substrated, beef- jerky maker set-up. It didn't matter what they were fed. It didn't matter if they got sun, UV, calcium or exercise. There was one in a dirty wooden box, in a shed, under a roof. The guy fed him lettuce, tomatoes and, no joke, dog kibble. He was smooth as a wild caught. One guy in Florida raised his sulcatas in his backyard with occasional soaked dog-kibble and monkey chow. He showed me pics and video on his phone. Totally smooth. They ate weeds all day and he had a good sized yard, but they appeared to be around 50-60 pounds at 5 years old. I've got all sorts of anecdotal stories like this, but my premise is this: If a tort is raised with exposure to that Southern humid air. They don't pyramid, regardless of other factors.

My sulcatas have all been raised in ideal conditions (according to the experts) for a desert species. They got UV bulbs and room sized enclosures when they were indoors, but they were outside in the sun in huge pens almost every day from hatchlings. They got a varied diet with only the expert recommended things and I fed in small amounts, so they wouldn't grow too fast. My boys are two years older, yet half the size of Maggies Bob. No protein of any kind except what's in the leafy greens and weeds. They got frequent soaks and regular calcium and vitamin supplementation. The only thing they didn't get was humidity. I kept them dry, on a dry substrate, in a dry climate, because that's what I was told desert species need. To do otherwise, I was told, would result in a deadly upper respiratory tract infection. I believed it because I was regularly shipping CDTs out to my buddies house in Whittier, away from the damp beach air where they were living when the owners would bring them to me with horrible URTIs. If we caught it early enough they'd live and be okay. Sometimes we had to hit 'em with the Baytril to pull them through, but that was hard on them too. My torts had all of the commonly listed causes of pyramiding covered, EXCEPT humidity. Mine pyramided. Not the worst I've seen, but pretty significantly.

Premise 1: Pyramiding is CAUSED by growth in the absence of enough humidity.

Premise 2: Exercise, hydration and proper diet are contributing factors, but deficiencies in these areas don't CAUSE it. Lack of exercise means fewer calories being spent on locomotion and therefore, those calories contribute to more growth. High protein foods cause more growth (as well as a host of other possible internal maladies). So, more protein and less exercise will make them pyramid MORE than a highly exercised, properly fed one. Anything that contributes to MORE growth in the absence of adequate humidity will make them pyramid more, but its the lack of humidity that CAUSES the pyramiding.

Premise 3: I don't think UV, calcium or D3 has anything to do with pyramiding. Totally separate problems.

Premise 4: The people who have disagreed with all of this USUALLY tend to live in areas with high and or variable humidity. OR they inadvertently humidified their torts enclosure. Fish tanks near by. Other humidity loving reptiles near by. Some houses just hold in dampness in some areas of the world. I haven't got much opposition to these theories from people with torts in AZ, UT and the California desert. I hear the story of such and such species being raised with out humidity and being relatively smooth. First of all this clearly varies with species. Second, I would argue that your tort DID get humidity from somewhere. My parents live 50 miles south of here relatively close to the beach. In their wet, grassy, landscaped backyard, it stays pretty humid. Tortoises raised around that area pyramid a lot less than mine that are raised in single digit humidity, on dry dirt for their whole lives.

What I would like is for people to point out how my premises are wrong. I want to know what you have experienced personally. Not what you read somewhere, in a book by an "expert" or, for goodness sake, on the internet.

If my current sulcata eggs turn out to be fertile, I'm going to use the hatchlings in an experiment to try to prove or disprove what I've theorized here. I'm going to raise them in the identical aforementioned "perfect" conditions. Same diet, same soaking, same pens, same supplementation, same climate, same everything. EXCEPT, I will keep them humid at all times. I might divide them up and try some different diets. I might do weeds/grass/cactus for some, grocery store greens for others, and primarily Mazuri for a third group. They will all be housed in the same room under the same conditions with the same substrate. For their outdoor pens, I'm planning on planting sod, watering it heavily and limiting their outside time.

One way or another, this argument will be over for me in a few years time. If I raise these babies the same way I always have, and the only factor I change is the humidity, I will have my answer.


----------



## Stephanie Logan (Feb 9, 2010)

I can't argue with your theory. I know that Taco was kept either in an air conditioned dorm room in south Texas or in our house here in semi-arid Colorado.

When I asked Ed about her misshapen shell, he said she looked like a tortoise that had been kept too cool and too dry (I cannot find that thread to get an exact quote).

So, my question is does temperature play as important a role as humidity?


----------



## Yvonne G (Feb 9, 2010)

In order for your test to be valid you would have to have a group raised without humidity...a humidity group and a non-humidity group.

My poor little leopard tortoise was fed the right stuff, got lots of sunshine and calcium and he still, at 4 years of age, looks like this:












because he was raised on dry old oat hay pellets the first three years of his life. The pictures really don't show the extent of the pyramiding. He is pretty bad. The box you see on the ground behind him in the first picture is where he spent his "outside time" before he was big enough to share the pasture with the grown-ups.


----------



## Tom (Feb 9, 2010)

Well, in a very unscientific way, I've already raised the non-humid group. All of my current and previous torts. I'll raise this new group in the exact same cages and conditions at the same ranch on the same foods, etc....
It will be proof enough for me.


----------



## egyptiandan (Feb 9, 2010)

Interesting theory 

Just a few questions, 

What exactly is humidity doing for the shell to keep it from pyramiding? 

What is pyramiding on the shell?

Danny


----------



## Madkins007 (Feb 9, 2010)

emysemys said:


> In order for your test to be valid you would have to have a group raised without humidity...a humidity group and a non-humidity group.



Actually, that is exactly what Richard Fife did with Red-foots and someone did on Sulcatas. The Sulcata study was especially interesting since they were trying to prove a dietary/protein component, but instead found that humidity was a major key.



egyptiandan said:


> Interesting theory
> 
> Just a few questions,
> 
> ...



I would LOVE to find the answer to that first question. I would be really interested to see a study that compares humidification to hydration- do well-hydrated tortoises pyramid even in low humidity? (They probably do, but I would love to see solid evidence one way or the other).


----------



## Tom (Feb 9, 2010)

egyptiandan said:


> Interesting theory
> 
> Just a few questions,
> 
> ...



Good call Danny. This is where I fall down a bit. I can tell you what works and what doesn't, but I can't tell you why.

I can tell you that my pyramided babies have always been very well hydrated. They got 30 minute soaks nearly every day, whether they needed or not, plus they ate mostly freshly rinsed, wet grocery store greens or weeds.

Similarly I'm not sure if pyramiding is bone, keratinous growth on top of the bone or both. I always thought it was misshapen keratin on top of bone, but I'm not sure of that any more.

A good part of my theory is based on the fact that NOBODY can tell me why mine pyramided so badly, under my specific set of circumstances. The only plausible answer, especially when Richard Fife's work is taken into consideration, is a lack of humidity.


----------



## webskipper (Feb 9, 2010)

egyptiandan said:


> What exactly is humidity doing for the shell to keep it from pyramiding?



I'll be following this topic pretty closely.

After seeing the cut away view of a pyramided shell vs a healthy shell I started to ponder what purpose the porous separated shell would serve if humidity was the key.

If humidity was the key and if Torts were hibernating in the wild when it was dry and cold and active in the warmer months and living in moist hides that would naturally occur during the wetter months, then the porous shell serves to hold the moisture the body so desires. Or it is a similar condition to osteoporosis.

A Greek word meaning bone and passage (porous).


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Feb 9, 2010)

I personally think it takes all 4 things to prevent pyramiding the most being humidity. Remember in the wild these guys spend most of their time in long burrows where the ambient humidity is 80%.


----------



## Tom (Feb 9, 2010)

webskipper said:


> egyptiandan said:
> 
> 
> > What exactly is humidity doing for the shell to keep it from pyramiding?
> ...



A few things. First, a lot of the torts we're talking about don't hibernate.

Second, since wild torts don't normally pyramid, what would porousness have to do with moisture retention?

Third, the porous bone on the cut away post was attributed to MBD, wasn't it?


----------



## webskipper (Feb 10, 2010)

Roachman26 said:


> Second, since wild torts don't normally pyramid, what would porousness have to do with moisture retention?



I am no expert. Just a theory here.

So if the porous shell held the moisture, then a non-porous shell would indicate an animal receiving the proper environment and health care.


----------



## egyptiandan (Feb 11, 2010)

The porus bones are a form of osteoporosis. Where the tortoise isn't getting enough of one or all of the 3 things (calcium, phosphorus, vitamin D) that are needed to produce bone. Bone does not soak up water when it is alive (same as your bones).

Danny


----------



## kbaker (Feb 11, 2010)

Let me had a little to this. People who come from the area of the country that is 'Muggy' during August will know what I am talking about. When it is humid out its 'Muggy' and you feel it. When it is hot and 'Muggy', it's very uncomfortable. And then you have the opposite, "it's a dry heat" which feels about the same until you hit 110F and then every degree above that makes a difference.

With that said, I believe that at a growing cell level (very tiny), this makes a big difference. The new cell growth starts out soft and the pressure of humidity has an effect on it untill it hardens/cures.

Try this one...does anyone know what happens to your hair in humid weather compared to dry?? 

I believe healthy shells are a product of proper balance of heat and humidity combined with proper building blocks (like calcium).


----------



## Tom (Feb 11, 2010)

kbaker said:


> I believe healthy shells are a product of proper balance of heat and humidity combined with proper building blocks (like calcium).



Now we're talking about two different things. Healthy shells can be pyramided or not. Likewise you can have a perfectly smooth, but unhealthy shell. I've seen lots of both and everything in between. You can keep a tortoise all wrong and still get a smooth shell. Likewise you can keep them perfectly, in every way, and still get a lumpy shell, if you raise them without enough humidity.

The point of my post is to basically say that I DON'T think its a balance of all these other things. When it comes to pyramiding, I think it is CAUSED by growth in the absence of sufficient humidity.

The other listed factors can make it better or worse, but they don't CAUSE it.

I'm not talking about MBD, over-all health or anything else. I've seen torts raised on the wrong food, no heat, no sun, no supplements, small glass aquariums and yet they still had a perfectly smooth shell. They we're probably not very healthy internally, but the shell was smooth on a captive raised baby. This was in Southern Louisiana and Florida where its hot and humid all the time.


----------



## kbaker (Feb 11, 2010)

Roachman26 said:


> kbaker said:
> 
> 
> > I believe healthy shells are a product of proper balance of heat and humidity combined with proper building blocks (like calcium).
> ...



I consider a healthy shell to be smooth and hardened/cured. And I agree, whether a healthy/no-pyramiding shell or not, it does not imply the tortoise is healthy inside or in other ways.

Your point is taken:
"The point of my post is to basically say that I DON'T think its a balance of all these other things. When it comes to pyramiding, I think it is CAUSED by growth in the absence of sufficient humidity."

My point is that it is hard to separate everything because you need all of it in balance. If you want to really prove that:
"When it comes to pyramiding, I think it is CAUSED by growth in the absence of sufficient humidity."
you will have to take some of other pieces out the equation and that will cause other problems for the tortoise.
You basically already have proof that lack of humidity is a big factor in pyramiding by what you said here:
"I've seen torts raised on the wrong food, no heat, no sun, no supplements, small glass aquariums and yet they still had a perfectly smooth shell. They we're probably not very healthy internally, but the shell was smooth on a captive raised baby. This was in Southern Louisiana and Florida where its hot and humid all the time." 

I just try to keep everything in balance (whatever that means) and try for over all health in the tortoise and shell (whatever that means).


----------



## -EJ (Feb 14, 2010)

No. 1 should be temperature. If you keep a tortoise at 60 - 70 F it will occasionally eat but will not grow very well. It is a reptile. It's metabolism is dependent on how well it can regulate it's temperature OR how well it's temperature can be regulated for them for proper metabolism.

What kind of temperatures did the tortoise have access to?



emysemys said:


> In order for your test to be valid you would have to have a group raised without humidity...a humidity group and a non-humidity group.
> 
> My poor little leopard tortoise was fed the right stuff, got lots of sunshine and calcium and he still, at 4 years of age, looks like this:
> 
> because he was raised on dry old oat hay pellets the first three years of his life. The pictures really don't show the extent of the pyramiding. He is pretty bad. The box you see on the ground behind him in the first picture is where he spent his "outside time" before he was big enough to share the pasture with the grown-ups.




It keeps the border layers of the scutes moist so they don't dry out.

There are a few keepers such and Richard Fife and Jon Coote and myself who have independently keyed onto this soft layer/section of the scute. I think AH even goes off on this topic trying to scientificly explain this. I actually think he's onto somthing the way he does it... but the point is the border layer of the scutes do not have enough moisture to establish before laying down another border layer.

Pyramiding is growing up instead of out.

At least... that's the way I see it.



egyptiandan said:


> Interesting theory
> 
> Just a few questions,
> 
> ...




We've established that the cutaway view that has been circulated on the net (posted by Fokker Don) are of 2 tortoises with MBD... One is pyramided... one is not.

When you see porous shell of a dried out shell... I suspect that the cavities are filled with blood or some other biomass when it is alive.

(initial response to hibernation... you are so wrong)(revised...) All tortoises seek hibernation dens which are humid but not moist... if that makes sense. Dens... leaf litter... lightly damp soil...

The porous bone is most like the result of osteoporosis. Think of it as a girder. The structure requires a certain strength. What it lacks in density it makes up for in structure... again, think of a girder set. Think about your definition and what point I'm trying to convey.



webskipper said:


> egyptiandan said:
> 
> 
> > What exactly is humidity doing for the shell to keep it from pyramiding?
> ...




I believe Richards work was with Leopards. I also don't remember him having any control groups. He pretty much changed things from year to year to raise good looking and healthy Leopards as quickly as possible.



Madkins007 said:


> emysemys said:
> 
> 
> > In order for your test to be valid you would have to have a group raised without humidity...a humidity group and a non-humidity group.
> ...


----------



## webskipper (Feb 14, 2010)

kbaker said:


> Healthy shells can be pyramided or not. Likewise you can have a perfectly smooth, but unhealthy shell.



So when I see a woman with perfect skin that means there may be underlying health issues?

What's inside exudes to the outside. Be happy, it shows all over.


----------



## Tom (Feb 14, 2010)

webskipper said:


> kbaker said:
> 
> 
> > Healthy shells can be pyramided or not. Likewise you can have a perfectly smooth, but unhealthy shell.
> ...



I hope the little smiley face indicates you are kidding. You do realize that soft, beautiful skin on a woman is different than a tortoise shell, right?


----------



## kbaker (Feb 14, 2010)

webskipper said:


> kbaker said:
> 
> 
> > Healthy shells can be pyramided or not. Likewise you can have a perfectly smooth, but unhealthy shell.
> ...


Hey, you miss quoted me. Roachman said that.


----------



## webskipper (Feb 14, 2010)

Roachman26 said:


> webskipper said:
> 
> 
> > kbaker said:
> ...


'Course. Sorry for the misquote kbaker.


----------



## Stephanie Logan (Feb 14, 2010)

I'm dizzy.


----------



## Annieski (Feb 15, 2010)

This topic has really interested me so I did a little research and this is what I found[looked in so many places, I can't document but all was found on web]. The carapace of a tortoise is directly related to the bones of the human anatomy, it is just that they are fused together[this is then where MBD becomes an issue when calcium cannot be utilized-2 stages: 1. bone only--2. bone and internal organ failure]. The scutes are related to skin and fingernails [which are always growing and get sloughed off in the course of time] B-Keratin[in reptiles] is a protein which provides the skin is waterproofing[ and because tortoises skin is so 'thick', also aids in water LOSS and the prevention of Desiccation[the state of extreme dryness or the process of extreme drying] In humans the substance is Surfactant which allows some membranes to be permeable or semi-permiable.
A DESICCANT is a "hygroscopic" substance--HYGROSCOPY is the ability of a substance to ATTRACT water molecules from the surrounding enviornment, through absorption or adsorption--- Thus the need for HUMIDITY for a smooth carapce. Don't forget Genetics and improper egg incubation will contribute to pryamiding,also.


----------



## Yvonne G (Feb 15, 2010)

Stephanie Logan said:


> I'm dizzy.



So *THAT'S* your excuse!


----------

