# CDTs For Sale?



## Tom (Aug 1, 2012)

Another member posted about someone trying to get "rehoming fees" for a CDT on another thread. This is something I have considered a lot over the years, and I'd love to hear how other keepers feel about it.

CA law says it is illegal to buy, sell, cross state lines, breed, remove from the wild, any CDT, or artificially incubate (or "help") eggs laid in captivity by any CDT. Why? Why are CDTs so different than any other tortoise species? We can snatch tortoises from the wild all over the globe, breed and sell as many as we want and that's fine, but we can't breed the captive native torts that we already have? Why not?

I agree that NONE should be removed from the wild any more given their rare and protected wild status, but I cannot understand what is the harm in reproducing an adult tortoise that is already captive and cannot ever be released. I abhor what went on for so many decades here with ignorant people bringing home souvenirs from their trip across the CA desert, but that damage is already done, and it's already stopped. So why not allow people to breed the heck out of them to satisfy the demand for captives? They are a really great species and I wish everyone across the country could enjoy them, the way we all get to enjoy what ever species we choose to work with.

I realize the laws here will likely never change, but I wish they would. My point of view is that there is no harm in captive breeding an awesome species and selling off the babies to pay for your hobby or make a profit. I see no reason why someone in New Mexico, or Washington, or New York should not be able to buy a captive bred baby CDT, and love it and give it a good home, the same way we do it with any other species.

What say you, tortoise people?


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## CourtneyAndCarl (Aug 1, 2012)

It probably has something to do with preserving the wild specimens. If everyone could get their hands on one, how can they be sure that it wasn't wild caught? If people are allowed to sell them for cash, people will probably start plucking them out of the wild to sell. Maybe some crazy disease will form in a mass produced captive population, and infect the wild one.

These aren't my thoughts, just maybe some of the reasons that the laws are in place.


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## Neal (Aug 1, 2012)

Ha, I was honestly considering a similar thread. 

Here, the AZ game and fish department is all but begging people to rehome Sonoran Desert Tortoises. I've been to the "sanctuary" where they hold several hundred of these tortoises...and it's sad to think that all these tortoises will likely live out there whole lives in those over crowded conditions. Talk about personality and hardiness, the desert tortoises I have seen are really magnificent.

I'll just say, I agree with you fully. I think that there are enough to "go around" that there really would not be any incentive to collect wild specimens.


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## MikeCow1 (Aug 1, 2012)

I agree. Why not captive breed a rare and vanishing species. And why not be able to sell or trade captive bred ones. I know the argument is that the young ones will outlive the owner, but still.


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## SamB (Aug 1, 2012)

I would love the opportunity to have a few more DT's. No doubt about that. Breeding them and then selling them would certainly make that easy. But that is a cheap fix isn't it? Would I be as attached to a purchased DT versus the long and hard road we had to travel to adopt our DT's and the strong loving bond that is created for your DT?

I see alot of Pro's, and I see alot of Con's -- so I'm on the fence on this one


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## mctlong (Aug 1, 2012)

I say absolutely NO to the buying and selling because, if buying/selling is legalized, no matter how many torts are available, there will be oppurtunistc idiots out there who will catch the wild torts and try to sell them to ususpecting buyers. Catching wild animals is free, no overhead. All profit. So my vote is no.

What I don't get it the non-breeding of DTs. I'd love to see a good breeding and reintroduction program. We should be able to test for RI before release, as that seems to be the main concern about rleasing torts into the wild.


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## CGKeith (Aug 1, 2012)

Arizona law is the same for all native species (to AZ). You cannot buy, sell or trade any of them. But if someone takes (illegaly) an animal from the State of AZ to another State they then can and do sell them. Examples are desert box turtles, Arizona Mtn kingsnakes, rattlesnakes, gila monsters, etc...
But, I can buy many animals that are not native (to AZ) and breed and sell as many of them as I want. Example, eastern box turtles, corn snakes, etc... (plus all the imported species)

The same is true in many States where the eastern box turtle is a native, they can't touch them there but they can buy plenty of other things that are not native to that State, like desert box turtle, and Arizona Mtn. kingsnakes from Arizona.

So, most of us end up enjoying and keeping animals from other States instead of what is native to our own State.

Totally makes sense.


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## kimber_lee_314 (Aug 1, 2012)

If it were legal to sell them, they would be removed from the wild even more than they already are. I can see selling hatchlings, but then again, how is one to determine whether the hatchlings were captive bred or taken from the wild. I have seen plenty of tortoises that are being sold as captive bred when clearly they have been taken from the wild.


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## wellington (Aug 1, 2012)

I agree. Voted yes


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## badkitty (Aug 1, 2012)

I say why not if you can get them a great home. We got our 2 sonoran desert tortoises from someone who had a bunch of captive bred that kept breeding, I was given the torts and didn't pay a fee which is legal in AZ.
If you go to the Arizona fish & game website you can adopt a DT but the requirements are ridiculous and most people can't meet all of them which is a shame because they are so over crowded right now that a lot could be adopted out to the right people but AZ fish & game won't budge on meeting ALL the requirements. I would definitely love to get more they have great personalities!


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## Yvonne G (Aug 1, 2012)

The reason they are illegal to be "sold" is so that people won't be tempted to go into the desert and take them from the wild. You could go harvest some wild tortoises, take them home and place an ad to sell them. How is the DFG going to prove that you didn't raise them from an egg.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 1, 2012)

wellington said:


> I agree. Voted yes



 *Me also!*


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## ascott (Aug 1, 2012)

Wow, I am totally shocked Tom that you would produce this thread????? I thought you expressed before that these are a species close to your heart....

Why would we want to step back at the further expense of this species? It has taken many many years and the lives of many of these regal creatures for there to be _any_ law put in place to offer any type of punishment for someone found ripping them from their small remaining wildland.....

Tom, I know that even as little as thirty years ago a piece of crap person could go into the desert and bring back as many as you can collect and they would pull the grand price of 10.00 dollars a piece, why? because it was free to rip them from their wildland and there was no punishment available to enforce against a repeat offender....mind you, people do and will continue to steal them from the wild...but damn it some of them get caught and some of them have to answer for it....

I have on my property a beautiful male CDT that was one of many that one person had ripped from his wildland...the other one that was with him was popped under the tire of the pizza man because the idiot left their front _apartment_ door open and they both walked out into the road....the male was found after the female was killed...now, that tort would never have been run over by the pizza man had they been left in their wildland....this same person had prior suspicion for removing them from the wild and this beautiful tort at my house was the only one that made it away from that person, all of the others were found to have died/been killed...officials turned the male over to me after they went in and confiscated the tort.......

Now, there is a great desire to house many of these torts and they are indeed an awesome tort....no question about it. However, _in my opinion,_ if the few guidelines in the law changed and were taken away....wow, the rest of the population in the wild would be gone and the only trace of a CDT would be the ones reduced to backyard pets....

Some will say, whats the matter with being a backyard pet? Nothing, if you were not designed to cover acres of land every day....graze at free will....mate as the moment arose...and so on and so on and so on....

I also do not support ripping _any_ tortoise nor turtle from the wild, not any species, it is deplorable----_in my opinion_....it is just another way man displays how superior we "think" we are and that the law of nature "should" not apply to us as well.....

Okay, so I will shut up now before I rant on.....Tom, I have great respect for what you offer to the tortoise community and I see that you have a great curiosity for the Sulcata....could you imagine the wild without that species?? without that species having an opportunity to survive on their own in their own land????

The reason there is such a huge market for Sulcata or Russians is exactly due to this way of thinking....there should be a greater population in the wild and efforts should be focused in the preservation and conservation and promoting that vs allowing humans to further rape the world of her precious treasures and the areas raped by humans will likely never recover from our ignorance....

So, I would vote, no and thank you for asking.


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## Eweezyfosheezy (Aug 1, 2012)

I voted no. Unless there was some sort of sanctuary set up here that had some security protecting them would be the only way they would ever be able to keep any numbers in the wild. People go out and pick up wild desert torts and take them home all the time and you cant even sell them. I cant imagine how fast they would be picked clean from the wild if they were legal to sell.


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## Nixxy (Aug 2, 2012)

emysemys said:


> The reason they are illegal to be "sold" is so that people won't be tempted to go into the desert and take them from the wild. You could go harvest some wild tortoises, take them home and place an ad to sell them. How is the DFG going to prove that you didn't raise them from an egg.



That's my only problem with it.

I think it should be legal, but honestly..I don't trust it being legal, knowing how folks are.


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## kanalomele (Aug 2, 2012)

I was literally Today considering this for myself... What I would love to see is captive bred torts being responsibly bred for the release of hatchlings into the wild. A responsible controlled program to bolster the wild population could be so important to these vanishing torts. So I have to vote no to their selling, but I would also love to see the captive population being placed into good homes through a better adoption program. Then a portion of that population being placed into homes that will use them for wild release hatchlings.


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## Arizona Sulcata (Aug 2, 2012)

I am by ZERO means an expert on this topic. The argument that people will just go in the desert and take them to sell if it were legal holds no relevance in my opinion. I do a lot a lot of outdoor activities hiking, hunting, and spend most of my time outdoors going to places that haven't seen a person in decades. Not once have I seen a wild DT. With that being said I think its easier said than done saying people will just go take all the wild ones and sell them... Good luck finding them is what I say to that.


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## Tom (Aug 2, 2012)

My experience mirrors Austin's. My aunt and uncle live in CDT territory and they rarely see one. When they do everyone knows to leave it alone and that its a protected species. The idea that people would suddenly drop everything and run into the desert to illegally collect every wild tortoise they could find so they could get rich is just ridiculous to me. There are tons of animals out there that could be illegally collected and sold, but they aren't. Collard lizards, chuckwallas, desert iguanas, king and gopher snakes, all the rattlesnakes. Rattlesnakes can be collected here in CA any time of the year with no permits or paperwork of any kind. And they can be sold for a pretty good profit. Yet, their wild populations are doing just fine.

And even if that were the case, the point is to captive breed them to REMOVE any pressure for collecting from the wild. If you could legally buy a captive bred baby that is well adapted and has known nothing but captivity, why would you go out and risk huge fines, jail time, and a tremendous amount of your time, effort and gas money to find and illegal wild one, that would take a long time to adjust to captivity, if it ever did, and is likely full of all sorts of wild parasites. Its the same argument against buying WC of any other species.

If these laws were abolished tomorrow, I would start putting together some captive animals and get busy breeding this endangered species. The thought of going out and collecting wild ones would never even occur to me. That is an uphill and very risky battle and there is NO sensible reason to undertake it, when there are already so many other viable options already in captivity.

Angela, your arguments are the same "sky will be falling", emotion based, hypocritical nonsense that we hear from all the animal rights groups that want to ban pet ownership. To hear it coming from someone who already has a bunch of tortoises that are very much loved and well cared for is astounding to me. Why do you not want everyone to enjoy the benefits of pet CDTs, and other tortoise species, that you so clearly enjoy. And I don't have to imagine the wild without sulcatas. They are extinct in at least two countries within their range and most probably more. They are nearly extinct in most of their range. How does this make an argument to NOT captive breed them or allow them to be sold. Isn't removing pressure for collection from the wild for the pet trade exactly they reason they SHOULD be bred? I don't see the CDT as any different. If I can buy a cheap, healthy, captive bred baby CDT legally from a reputable breeder, why on earth would I take the risk of snatching a wild one. It would cost more in gas just to drive out to where their territory is for most people, than it would to just buy one. Plus if someone were to drive out to the theoretical range of the CDT, there is no guarantee that you will even find one. The idea of wasting all that time and money and coming up empty handed is going to dissuade most people who would be willing to risk it, and the illegality of it would be enough to stop most of the rest.


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## ascott (Aug 2, 2012)

Tom, I wont let us become engaged in an argument here purely based on opinion....while I do host four CDTs here I wish there was no need for these beauties to be doomed to captivity....I wish there was no reason. Absolutely I am in love with each of the CDTs here...but I catch myself in a moment of sadness from time to time when I think about where they should be and never again allowed to be there....that is a sad sad trade off. In a heart beat I would rather them not be here but rather where they should be....that Tom would be fantastic and put a bigger smile on my face even more than the joy I get from hosting them....

Tom, I also host two dogs (the law says I own them, but that can not be the case as one living creature can not own another).....at one time in my life I supported the pure bred market place....until I had a dose of reality and learned of unheard of number of dogs being killed because people have overly and commonly devalued the life of a dog....throw away, we can get em cheap mentality....our tendency as a species is to lay claim to what we want regardless to what the victim would vote....once we claim something as our right then we begin to devalue it because we can simply get or make more...so no big deal...value lost. We need to remember to value...to let things alone sometimes....so allow value and importance to not be raped and devalued.

I also adopted two redfoot torts from a member here because she had no interest in them....I of course absolutely would and did take their pyramided beautiful little butts in and another member here had two gorgeous babies he felt would be good with me and of course of course of course I will offer love and care and a home for them through their captive lives.....case closed.

Tom, I am not going to use words like hypocrisy and such towards you....as I simply responded to your thread with emotion, passion and love for the well being of an endangered species...emotions, passion and love are not and should not be so quickly devalued simply to make a point.

Tom, here we are toe to toe on a subject that we disagree on....I am alright with us disagreeing and I still like you just the same....

Oh yeah....I am sad that folks don't have a greater opportunity to see them in their Wildlands....here are a couple pics my son and I took when we went for a two hour walk in the Mojave....the tort but is a youngster....the burrows were occupied but too darn dark for the tort to show up but the perfectness of the burrow entrance was too awesome to not photograph....and the last pic was us standing up looking over their beautiful domain......enjoy.


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## Eweezyfosheezy (Aug 2, 2012)

I think the fact that you can never find one in the wild is a huge reason not to make these legal to sell. There are so few in the wild that it wouldnt take much collecting for this species to go extinct in the wild. The biggest reason people dont take them is because they have no cash value not because its illegal to. There is almost no way to catch people red handed from taking them from the wild because Game and Fish arent everywhere (at least here in AZ there not). Not everyone like you and I truly care for this species and its well being. Most people would just see dollar signs and scoop up a desert tortoise whenever they see one. I think the best thing to do would be to legalize breeding and give the hatchlings to Game and Fish for reintroduction to the wild and treat it as a donation and deduct it from your taxes. I think thats a win win for everyone.


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## GBtortoises (Aug 2, 2012)

I'm on the fence on this subject. I am 110% in favor of _all_ species of "pet" animals being captive bred as much as possible. Whether or not making them legal to sell will cause a decline in wild populations is questionable. There is no way of knowing for certain until the practice has already taken place. You can't say that it will or won't with absolute certainty. One thing that it will do is make more available for those that want them thereby _possibly_ not effecting wild populations as negatively through captive breeding. But again, that is not a certainty either. At this point the unknowing and uneducated are most likely taking them out of the wild anyway to take home as vacation momentos. This has always been and always will be. Although I have not personally seen it, I am guessing that there is and has been a black market for them that demands high prices. There is with most such rare or endangered animals. I've never been offered a Desert tortoise but I have in the past been offered Gopher tortoises so the market most likely exists for Desert tortoises too. Bringing their trade out into the public could hurt the black market trade enough that it would stop. The only possible way to attempt to ensure that wild tortoises stay wild is to track the ownership of captive animals. At this point all adults currently in captivity would have to be registered, any change of ownership reported and the animals registered under the new owner. Breeders would have to provide proof of eggs produced and any babies born would have to be registered and ownership transfers reported and re-registered and so and so on.
One of my big concerns with this would be the introduction of captive born and raised or long term captive wild animals being re-introduced to the wild. This is something that absolutely should not be done. Unless your intention is to possibly kill off all the original wild populations in order to establish new "man made" wild populations. Often times it's thought that captive animals should be released back into the wild where they "belong". More often than not this is a poor idea which can potentially lead to exposure of foreign bacteria and parasites to wild populations. While it might seem like the right thing to do for the individual animal, it really isn't necessarily the best thing to do for the wild population.


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## Tom (Aug 2, 2012)

Angela, We have, and have had for a while, a philosophical disagreement on how we see the world as far as captive animals. I am okay with that too. I also like and respect you and your opinions too. I have no problem with CDTs and other animals being owned and well kept in society. I don't think its a tragedy or some horrible thing. In the majority of cases, I think these animals have won the life lottery. Life in the wild is cruel, harsh and totally unforgiving. Life in captivity is cushy and every need is tended to and met. If I was a CDT and had the choice of being left alone in Mojave, or living in YOUR backyard and getting fed, watered and having a safe place to overwinter, I would choose to be YOUR tortoise every time.

Ahh.. No more needs to be said. We each know where the other is coming from. Thanks for eloquently and respectfully sharing your views. They are always welcome, even if we don't always agree.


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## Jacqui (Aug 2, 2012)

Tom said:


> CA law says it is illegal to buy, sell, cross state lines, breed, remove from the wild, any CDT, or artificially incubate (or "help") eggs laid in captivity by any CDT. Why? Why are CDTs so different than any other tortoise species? We can snatch tortoises from the wild all over the globe, breed and sell as many as we want and that's fine, but we can't breed the captive native torts that we already have? Why not?
> 
> I agree that NONE should be removed from the wild any more given their rare and protected wild status, but I cannot understand what is the harm in reproducing an adult tortoise that is already captive and cannot ever be released...... So why not allow people to breed the heck out of them to satisfy the demand for captives? They are a really great species and I wish everyone across the country could enjoy them, the way we all get to enjoy what ever species we choose to work with.
> 
> ...



Tom, this is something I have been saying and asking for years.


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## acrantophis (Aug 2, 2012)

ascott said:


> Tom, I wont let us become engaged in an argument here purely based on opinion....while I do host four CDTs here I wish there was no need for these beauties to be doomed to captivity....I wish there was no reason. Absolutely I am in love with each of the CDTs here...but I catch myself in a moment of sadness from time to time when I think about where they should be and never again allowed to be there....that is a sad sad trade off. In a heart beat I would rather them not be here but rather where they should be....that Tom would be fantastic and put a bigger smile on my face even more than the joy I get from hosting them....
> 
> Tom, I also host two dogs (the law says I own them, but that can not be the case as one living creature can not own another).....at one time in my life I supported the pure bred market place....until I had a dose of reality and learned of unheard of number of dogs being killed because people have overly and commonly devalued the life of a dog....throw away, we can get em cheap mentality....our tendency as a species is to lay claim to what we want regardless to what the victim would vote....once we claim something as our right then we begin to devalue it because we can simply get or make more...so no big deal...value lost. We need to remember to value...to let things alone sometimes....so allow value and importance to not be raped and devalued.
> 
> ...





Wow great pictures! I kind of agree with you and i kind of Agee with Tom. I was in the reptile import business in the 80's and 90's. Going to the airport to pick up boxes of fish and reptiles from all over the world was exciting at first. I would love opening boxes to see what had come in. But often the boxes would contain just corpses. To see a box of dead animals can really impact an animal lover. For a long time I would see animals as price tags. The salt water fish industry is even worse. So many fish die in shipping and then again at the wholesaler and again at the pet store.
While scuba diving I would be like "that one is 129.99, that one is 49.99 etc..." I now feel that no animals should be taken from the wild. It isn't sustainable. If an animal occurs in the wild in high numbers it is necessary for that species survival. Maybe it's just to feed other animals, but definitely not for pet harvesting. 
However the captive breeding of animals for the pet industry, to me, is ok. The wild is a dangerous place. And many animals thrive in captivity. Some don't though, and some should never be kept.


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## Tom (Aug 2, 2012)

Jacqui said:


> Tom, this is something I have been saying and asking for years.



Jacqui, If I made the rules, your hatchling CDT group would be getting shipped tomorrow! You know I hate all these laws and big government. Maybe someday in our lifetimes things will change for the better...

No no... don't hold your breath. You are already turning blue...


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## harris (Aug 3, 2012)

I just want to add that this is one of the best debatable threads I've read in this section in a long, long time. Thanks to Angela and Tom, two people I respect very much here. The opposite view points couldn't of been constructed any better.


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## Jacqui (Aug 3, 2012)

So far, if I am reading most folks' posts correctly, those of you against the selling of captive bred DTs, it is the belief that by allowing them to start having a monetary value, folks will start doing more taking from the wild. Correct? So what if the law were changed so they could still NOT be sold, but could be given? Thus they would have no monetary value. Then also, at the same time rewrite the law so it allows folks who want to breed them and help the eggs to develop into hatchlings to do so. Then also allow folks who live outside of the current "legal" area to be given these CB hatchling DTs. For example, Tom has some babies to give away, in this scenario he could legally send me some and Kristina some. Would you agree to that? If not, why not?



Tom said:


> No no... don't hold your breath. You are already turning blue...



Well blue IS my favorite color.


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## Tom (Aug 3, 2012)

Jacqui, I think that is a splendid idea and makes everyone but the government types happy. Well the people who wanted to profit might not be happy too, but I'm okay with that.


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## dmmj (Aug 3, 2012)

Sorry jacqui, I passed the law in CA stating" jacqui can't ever have CDT's" my bad it was before I joined the forum, and I just picked a name at random.


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## Jacqui (Aug 3, 2012)

dmmj said:


> Sorry jacqui, I passed the law in CA stating" jacqui can't ever have CDT's" my bad it was before I joined the forum, and I just picked a name at random.



David, thing is before you passed the "None for Jacqui" law, I did have a very elderly CDT.


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## CGKeith (Aug 3, 2012)

Jacqui, you don't have to go to CA, we have DT's in Arizona. 

Here, it is legal to give them away. In fact you must do so within 2 yrs of them hatching. But you can only have one per person. 

As far as being able to take them to different States, you do have individual State laws to deal with, but also Federal laws that would have to be changed. I really doubt anyone will live long enough to see all of them getting together to work that out.


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## Jacqui (Aug 3, 2012)

CGKeith said:


> But you can only have one per person.



I personally do not understand this part of the law there. Why? Especially in light of how many the Game and Parks (is that what you call your folks?) has sitting around needing homes and are housed in crowded conditions.


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## CGKeith (Aug 3, 2012)

Jacqui said:


> CGKeith said:
> 
> 
> > But you can only have one per person.
> ...



I believe that is supposed to keep people from breeding them. The adoption centers take it a step further and say one per household if you get one from them. But as with most laws, they try and create a system to help and end up creating additional problems in the process.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Aug 3, 2012)

Tom said:


> Another member posted about someone trying to get "rehoming fees" for a CDT on another thread. This is something I have considered a lot over the years, and I'd love to hear how other keepers feel about it.
> 
> CA law says it is illegal to buy, sell, cross state lines, breed, remove from the wild, any CDT, or artificially incubate (or "help") eggs laid in captivity by any CDT. Why? Why are CDTs so different than any other tortoise species? We can snatch tortoises from the wild all over the globe, breed and sell as many as we want and that's fine, but we can't breed the captive native torts that we already have? Why not?
> 
> ...



You make a very compelling case, Tom.


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## Weldd (Aug 4, 2012)

I think this is the only way. If you place ANY monetary value on an animal, there will be people who will find a reason to exploit that.

I am from Long Island, NY originally. There was a spot on the eastern end of the island that was absolutely LOADED with spotted turtles. It was an interesting habitat because it had tidal drainage and the water was brackish. If you walked the spot on a nice spring day you could literally see hundreds of spotteds.

Well, it was discovered by a person active in the reptile trade and was collected until empty. I returned there last year for the first time in 15 or 20 years and there was not a single turtle there. The habitat had not changed a bit but there was no turtles.

Mind you, this was in the early-mid 90's when spotted turtles were about $10 wholesale.

Any financial incentive, any at all, will be enough for people to crawl around the wilderness on their belly for the chance to "earn" a dollar.

P.S. The person responsible for what I described above is still very active in the reptile trade. He posts animals for sale on KS regularly and will almost certainly have a table in Daytona in a few weeks.






Jacqui said:


> So far, if I am reading most folks' posts correctly, those of you against the selling of captive bred DTs, it is the belief that by allowing them to start having a monetary value, folks will start doing more taking from the wild. Correct? So what if the law were changed so they could still NOT be sold, but could be given? Thus they would have no monetary value. Then also, at the same time rewrite the law so it allows folks who want to breed them and help the eggs to develop into hatchlings to do so. Then also allow folks who live outside of the current "legal" area to be given these CB hatchling DTs. For example, Tom has some babies to give away, in this scenario he could legally send me some and Kristina some. Would you agree to that? If not, why not?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## kanalomele (Aug 4, 2012)

I think weldd makes a good point. There is ALWAYS someone who will put personal and financial gain over the welfare of the animals. I don't like this about our species but it is undeniably and invariably true. I am still very pro a breeding program, and the more the better. Yes even to responsible homes outside of their territory


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## Tom (Aug 4, 2012)

Weldd said:


> I think this is the only way. If you place ANY monetary value on an animal, there will be people who will find a reason to exploit that.
> 
> I am from Long Island, NY originally. There was a spot on the eastern end of the island that was absolutely LOADED with spotted turtles. It was an interesting habitat because it had tidal drainage and the water was brackish. If you walked the spot on a nice spring day you could literally see hundreds of spotteds.
> 
> ...



Was the spotted turtle completely and totally illegal to remove or even disturb in the wild in those days? Was it considered and endangered, highly threatened species then?

What you describe is a tragedy in my opinion, and I think that is pretty similar to what was happening with the CDT for a long time over here, but now even touching a CDT carries serious penalties and huge fines. I'm pretty sure if someone was caught collecting them from the wild in any numbers they would do prison time. I am NOT in favor of making legal to collect any more from the wild, but I still see no reason to not breed captive ones and let people around the country enjoy this wonderful species. I've seen a few adults in the wild over the years, but I don't know of anyone who has found babies. It would be difficult for someone to "cheat" the system if babies were allowed to be sold or at least given away.


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## EricIvins (Aug 4, 2012)

Conservation through commercialization has proven to work with a myriad of species the world over.......I would expect Desert Tortoises to be no different.....


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## Kristina (Aug 4, 2012)

Jacqui said:


> send me some and *Kristina* some.



I love you.




Tom said:


> No no... don't hold your breath. You are already turning blue...





Jacqui said:


> Well blue IS my favorite color.



I'm partial to green myself... goes well with envy...

I agree with that scenario as well. What is the true logical reason that Jacqui and I can't own a group of CDT's? An "assurance" colony if you will. Heck, we both have assurance colonies of Manouria emys emys, that came from the TSA. Other than being non-native to the US, what is the darn difference?


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## dmmj (Aug 4, 2012)

The california desert tortoise, does not know it is a california desert tortoise, if one was to reach the border where california and nevada meet, I highly doubt he will stop and turn around.


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## RonHays (Aug 4, 2012)

I don't see how law enforcement can control it there in CA. With all the other things they having going on there, I bet there's a lot of people that are illegally selling them and breeding them. Not saying it's right, but I just don't see how they can strictly force it.


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## Tom (Aug 4, 2012)

RonHays said:


> I don't see how law enforcement can control it there in CA. With all the other things they having going on there, I bet there's a lot of people that are illegally selling them and breeding them. Not saying it's right, but I just don't see how they can strictly force it.



There is no market for selling CDTs here. In all of my years of dealing with tortoises, I have never once been offered a CDT for sale. Many have come my way through donation though. When the occasion person tries to sell one on craigslist, the ad gets shut down right away as everyone in the world emails and tells the person they are not allowed to be traded for monetary gain in any way, even if its called a "rehoming fee". I know lots of people that have them and it seems to me that the vast majority of people know they are illegal to sell and don't try.


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## ascott (Aug 4, 2012)

> So far, if I am reading most folks' posts correctly, those of you against the selling of captive bred DTs, it is the belief that by allowing them to start having a monetary value, folks will start doing more taking from the wild. Correct? So what if the law were changed so they could still NOT be sold, but could be given? Thus they would have no monetary value. Then also, at the same time rewrite the law so it allows folks who want to breed them and help the eggs to develop into hatchlings to do so. Then also allow folks who live outside of the current "legal" area to be given these CB hatchling DTs. For example, Tom has some babies to give away, in this scenario he could legally send me some and Kristina some. Would you agree to that? If not, why not?



No Jacqui, my concerns are not monetary....I believe the world and its creatures are too easily dismissed...are too frequently brought to little or no value...we are rapidly out populating our own habitats and are moving down our own created checklist of other spaces and places to take over....to disturb and devastate in a way we are not qualified nor equipped to fix. I just don't believe we have the right to do this. 

We are only one species of many that have this one earth to preserve and conserve for us all....and I get sad when I hear the thought of yet another species we think we can claim and own as some crazy way we think. I am what some refer to as a "tree hugger" (incase you all have not noticed ) from way back and I am rooted deep. 

I can take a walk tomorrow through the desert and be blessed with nature all around...I also visit places from my childhood and stand and look in sadness when those beautiful places are no longer there..but rather filled with housing tracks, strip malls and the like....those places will never be there for my son or his children to take in as a calming memory, ever. 

So, while the thought of legalizing the topic of this thread may seem trivial to some, it is the larger picture I see that always stings in my heart. 

_The gross heathenism of civilization has generally destroyed nature, and poetry, and all that is spiritual._
John Muir


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Aug 4, 2012)

Tom, I'm inclined to agree with you. As you say, it is imperative to ban collecting wild California desert tortoises (and indeed, any wild animals). At the same time, though, it is imperative to establish thriving captive populations of tortoises, including CDTs ... and while we're at it, ditto for the other three _Gopherus_ species (gopher, Texas, and Bolson tortoises). Aw heck, that should be happening for every tortoise species, if at all possible.

Market forces are powerful, and can be channeled for either good or bad purposes. If wild-caught tortoises made people money, that would be devastating for wild populations. However, if captive-bred tortoises made people money, that would be good news for the species in captivity.

I guess the reason US states have laws against selling _Gopherus_ tortoises is that they think it's hard to tell where a tortoise came from, and what rather be prudent than permissive. I can understand that, and to an extant that's true. However, I would be in favor of laws that would, for example, require breeders to keep records or take "mug shots" of their hatchlings, to prove that they were indeed hatched in captivity. If they do that, _Gopherus_ tortoises might be rising instead of declining.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Aug 5, 2012)

Seems to me that one simple solution is the requirement that all DTs in captivity have ID implants, much like is required in many European countries...then, it'd be easy enough to tell if a given tortoise was captive bred (one type of implant), or was from the over-populated Government "rescues" (different type of implant) or is wild cauight (no implant).

The cost of such a program could be pretty much financed by the tortoise owner/breeder, and would surely save the considerable $$$ spent on keeping the Government rescues in over-crowded, less than optimal, conditions.

Now, how do we convince the *PowersThat Be*?


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Aug 5, 2012)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> Seems to me that one simple solution is the requirement that all DTs in captivity have ID implants, much like is required in many European countries...then, it'd be easy enough to tell if a given tortoise was captive bred (one type of implant), or was from the over-populated Government "rescues" (different type of implant) or is wild cauight (no implant).
> 
> The cost of such a program could be pretty much financed by the tortoise owner/breeder, and would surely save the considerable $$$ spent on keeping the Government rescues in over-crowded, less than optimal, conditions.
> 
> Now, how do we convince the *PowersThat Be*?



Good idea.
Signed petitions and letters to your representative.


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## Tom (Aug 5, 2012)

ascott said:


> No Jacqui, my concerns are not monetary....I believe the world and its creatures are too easily dismissed...are too frequently brought to little or no value...we are rapidly out populating our own habitats and are moving down our own created checklist of other spaces and places to take over....to disturb and devastate in a way we are not qualified nor equipped to fix. I just don't believe we have the right to do this.
> 
> We are only one species of many that have this one earth to preserve and conserve for us all....and I get sad when I hear the thought of yet another species we think we can claim and own as some crazy way we think. I am what some refer to as a "tree hugger" (incase you all have not noticed ) from way back and I am rooted deep.
> 
> ...



Angela, your view of things is a bit dismal. I too am a nature lover. I detest big cities. New York, Chicago(Sorry Barb), Paris, Cape Town, L.A.... They are all the same, big stinky, cesspools of human depravity... (How's that for a dismal view?)

Way back in high school, I was quite a tree hugger myself. One day while lamenting about the woes of gross human overpopulation and destruction of our planet, I was given a bit of a revelation by a young woman who had just transferred to our school from Utah. I was saying how disgusting human cities were and how we were crowding nature out of existence, and she looked at me funny and asked, "You've never been outside of L.A., have you?" "Haven't you ever driven across the country before?", she asked, so innocently. And then she walked away and left me standing there to absorb the gravity of her words... Changed my mind forever. For every big nasty smelly crowded city, there are millions of square miles of completely untouched wild country. There is so much room for us to expand that its ridiculous. People tend to all crowd together in our cities, but have you ever looked out the window of a plane while over any place in the entire US? Yes, you can see a big sprawling disgusting city from some points, but you can see a thousand times more completely raw untouched land as far as the eye can see. Much of this land doesn't even have so much as a small dirt trail on it.

I guess my point is that things aren't as bad as they seem sometimes. Just depends on how you look at it. We have horrible stories, like the decimation of our wild CDT populations over the last few decades, and the horrible spotted turtle story earlier in this thread, but there are many more good stories too. Sanctuaries that have been created (Channel Islands, innumerable wetlands, etc...), species that have been saved and brought back from the brink of extinction (Peregrin Falcon, CA Condor, several sea turtle species, etc...).

Now for my last point, why on earth would somebody, buying, caring for, loving, feeding and enjoying the company of an amazing CDT baby, be considered a "dismissal" of a species by you? I don't see that as a dismissal. Quite the opposite, I see it as honoring a species and an individual. To spend all that time, money and effort on trying to make a "perfect" habitat, either growing or buying all the right foods, growing an animal from baby to a healthy, long lived adult, spending time every day admiring and interacting with them... How is this a dismissal?

Angela, you are a wonderful person, and I love our tortoise forum conversations, but it seems like YOUR glass is half empty today.


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## ascott (Aug 5, 2012)

> Sanctuaries that have been created
> species that have been saved and brought back from the brink of extinction (Peregrin Falcon, CA Condor, several sea turtle species, etc...).



Ah Tom, my wish is that there would be no reason to have to designate spaces to try to clean up after ourselves....the species listed here for example, are due to human interference...

I do believe enough in the power of our species...the problem I see is that unless a shift of thinking among all of our species evolves, unless we learn to use less and to in turn conserve and preserve, this beautiful planet will slowly continue to suffer along with all of its inhabitant...I don't know if dismal is the word I would have used  maybe more like hopeful, wishful and yes, sometimes sad....you know, all of the emotions this squishy gal goes through....


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