# Little LEOS



## Redfoot NERD (Mar 25, 2010)

BRF.. [ before redfoots ].. believe it or not I had Leopard tortoises!

I've always enjoyed traveling and had met a couple from Tampa who were on vacation here so I went down to see them! I asked around.. met an importer/breeder and acquired THREE 4" leopards from him - that was in early '98. They grew up to be 1.2! Almost exactly 6 years later the largest female was over 13" SCL and quite blond -







She was HEAVY - [ notice the 'tape ] -






The 2nd female always had a runny nose because of the humidity here so it became obvious it was time to work with a different species. 

I looked thru a few ads and found a breeder of Leos in N. Taxas and emailed him and asked him if he knew anyone who would like a 'nice' trio of Leos. He 'mailed back and asked for pics [ this was b4 I had a digital camera ].. so I scanned what I had and sent them to him and he wrote back and said.. "That would be me!".

We made a deal which included some of his hatchlings and a little $$$.
We drove half-way and met them in E. Arkansas. I'll always remember the day I handed that big girl over to him..  ( a sad day! )

The resources from that deal enabled me to pay for my first digital camera and the 3 hatchling redfoots that have become my Colombian breeders ( same importer/breeder ).. along with a trio of young LTC adults - one of which was SONshine -






These are the hatchling Leos from Texas -






Over the next 6-7 months I sold them all.. and saved 3 for last - which I'll post later in this thread. I think you'll like them.

NERD


----------



## Defiant (Mar 25, 2010)

Nice looking torts as always


----------



## rwfoss (Mar 26, 2010)

Beautiful leopard pics!! Love em


----------



## Redfoot NERD (Mar 26, 2010)

After I had that group for a few months I saw there were just a few that looked like they were going to grow up to be NICE!

Wattaya think? One at a time -
















Remember this was over 5 years ago when I didn't know how to take pics even any...

NERD


----------



## N2TORTS (Mar 26, 2010)

Yea Terry .... I think I switched over to reds too!







JD~


----------



## Tom (Mar 26, 2010)

I loved the story AND the pics. So fascinating to me how we all end up with whatever we end up with. Torts live so long and take soooo long to mature that large portions of our lives pass by while they are in our care. Its been a while since I've had my own leopard, I am long over due.

Thanks for posting this.


----------



## N2TORTS (Mar 26, 2010)

Tom said:


> I loved the story AND the pics. So fascinating to me how we all end up with whatever we end up with. Torts live so long and take soooo long to mature that large portions of our lives pass by while they are in our care. Its been a while since I've had my own leopard, I am long over due.
> 
> Thanks for posting this.



" Well Said "


----------



## Redfoot NERD (Mar 27, 2010)

Tom said:


> I loved the story AND the pics. So fascinating to me how we all end up with whatever we end up with. Torts live so long and take soooo long to mature that large portions of our lives pass by while they are in our care. Its been a while since I've had my own leopard, I am long over due.
> 
> Thanks for posting this.



Tom you're really going to like these next 2 - talk about "fresh" -
















Hope you live in a 'dryer' climate.

NERD


----------



## Redfoot NERD (Mar 27, 2010)

Tom said:


> I loved the story AND the pics. So fascinating to me how we all end up with whatever we end up with. Torts live so long and take soooo long to mature that large portions of our lives pass by while they are in our care. Its been a while since I've had my own leopard, I am long over due.
> 
> Thanks for posting this.



A few more for you Tom - the male was less than 10" - never stopped.. munch & run -











And one of the few pics I received.. from their new home in Texas -






Terry K


----------



## terryo (Mar 27, 2010)

I don't know anything about Leopard tortoises, and was just curious, and wondered why most Leopards that you see all have pyramiding. Is that because they were raised wrong, or are they supposed to look like that?


----------



## Redfoot NERD (Mar 27, 2010)

TerryO many/most 'old' caresheets would have everyone believe that their savannah/desert torts [ virtually ALL herbivors(sp?) ] have to be kept 'bone-dry' or they will die from RNS.. I'm not exaggerating too bad!

Since the first year or so is the most vital growth phase of any tortoise.. it's critical to get them started right - 'right out of the egg'.
This is something I learned shortly after I acquired the leopards. And is exactly what Tom is talking about here!

This is what leopards look like in the wild -











.. they aren't pyramided. The "lumps" are normal in the wild.. the extreme 'pyramids' with space between the scutes is most likely diet and 'dry' climate enhanced in captivity.

NERD


----------



## Tom (Mar 27, 2010)

Great pics. Thanks for posting Terry. I do live in a dry area. VERY VERY dry. Humidity is usually in the single digits. I'm worried that even with me attempting to keep them humid they might still pyramid. Someone suggested, and it sounds reasonable to me, that as long as they "dry their lungs out, once in a while" they won't get any respiratory problems. So if I keep their indoor pen nice and humid, with a humid hide box too, and then put them out for daily sunshine, in the hot, dry air here, for an hour or two, I wonder if I can get the best of both worlds. Smooth shell from the indoor humidity and a healthy respiratory tract from the excessively dry outdoor air. This has been working well for two years with my Daisy. She's a young sulcata and her indoor enclosure is downright swampy. Its literally wet all the time.

I've also recently heard and am considering belly heat. This has been a huge "no-no" since the days of unreliable hot rocks in the 70's, but its also kind of making sense. Those hot, overhead lights certainly dry out the air AND their shells. I think this may also have to do with pyramiding as it certainly decrease humidity. You redfoot folks might have this one already figured out as you guys seem to stay away from the bright, hot lights for your forest torts. I've got an 18" square Kane heat mat. I may try it on my next baby instead of over head basking lights. The manufacturer says that the Kane mats are designed to stay approximately 30 degrees above ambient. So 110 degree, 18' square hot spot in an 80 degree room sounds about right to me. The enclosure is 5x3' feet, so they can easily move off of it.

I'm going to post this separately in debatable and see what everyone else thinks too.


----------



## terryo (Mar 27, 2010)

Tom, you just might be "paving the way". Good luck.


----------



## Tom (Mar 27, 2010)

terryo said:


> Tom, you just might be "paving the way". Good luck.



Thanks, but I can't take the credit. None of these things have been my ideas. I'm just trying to put all the pieces together. Others have come up with the ground breaking revelations, like humidity for the desert species. I'm just experimenting with THEIR ideas and posting about what I learn. I wish the guys with the original ideas would join the forum. Then we'd really be getting somewhere.


----------



## Redfoot NERD (Mar 27, 2010)

Tom the trick is the humidity and temps.. without breeding 'fungi-on-the-tummy'! So I'd probly watch the 'heating from below'?

That 3rd baby I've mentioned -






Just look at the Vanilla on this one -











I wonder what he looks like now?

Terry K


----------



## Tom (Mar 27, 2010)

I hear ya about the fungus. I couldn't get fungus or mold to grow here if I tried. It seems to me, that if the belly heat is coming off of a clean, dry plastic heat mat, shell rot shouldn't be a problem. Seems to me it wouldn't matter if its an over head bulb or a dry heat mat. At least not in my case, since its so darn dry here. Maybe a different story in FL.


----------



## Redfoot NERD (Mar 27, 2010)

Tom said:


> I hear ya about the fungus. I couldn't get fungus or mold to grow here if I tried. It seems to me, that if the belly heat is coming off of a clean, dry plastic heat mat, shell rot shouldn't be a problem. Seems to me it wouldn't matter if its an over head bulb or a dry heat mat. At least not in my case, since its so darn dry here. Maybe a different story in FL.



That "literally wet" part is what threw me..





NERD


----------



## Tom (Mar 27, 2010)

Redfoot NERD said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > I hear ya about the fungus. I couldn't get fungus or mold to grow here if I tried. It seems to me, that if the belly heat is coming off of a clean, dry plastic heat mat, shell rot shouldn't be a problem. Seems to me it wouldn't matter if its an over head bulb or a dry heat mat. At least not in my case, since its so darn dry here. Maybe a different story in FL.
> ...



If I get it any wetter in there it will be one giant soaking tub!


----------



## Redfoot NERD (Mar 27, 2010)

Lemme see if I can explain this the way I understand it.

The heat-mat is dry but their enclosure is totally wet?????????

I'm confused.... kinda like the guy that was trying to explain to an old hermit how a thermos bottle worked - "You can keep hot liquids hot.. or cold liquids cold!". The hermit gave him that look and asked.. "How do they do that?".

The humid-hide for redfoot torts is full of moss that they can crawl into so their carapace is kept warm and humid. And there is no warm or cool side for redfoots.. mine anyway - just warm ambient temps! Of course redfoots have a different resp. system designed for higher humidity?

Terry K


----------



## Tom (Mar 27, 2010)

Redfoot NERD said:


> Lemme see if I can explain this the way I understand it.
> 
> The heat-mat is dry but their enclosure is totally wet?????????
> 
> ...



Right! You've got it. I'd be using a "wet" substrate and the 18" Kane heat mat would sit on top of the substrate and be totally dry. Basically it would be like a large flat rock under a heat lamp, just without the heat lamp. Does that make sense?

I'm not doing this yet. Just contemplating it.


----------



## Redfoot NERD (Mar 27, 2010)

Are you going to show us Daisy or what? Tom?

And when are you getting those p. pardalis?

Terry K


----------



## Tom (Mar 27, 2010)

Redfoot NERD said:


> Are you going to show us Daisy or what? Tom?
> 
> And when are you getting those p. pardalis?
> 
> Terry K



I've got two friends calling the Leopard guy for me. He produces several hundred of the true G.p.p. leopards every year, but he doesn't like to talk to people he doesn't know and is very secretive, for good reason. I'd be the same way. He sells everything he can produce through his long term, trusted contacts. He has no need for new, small time business. Fortunately, I know a couple of his long term friends and they are checking to see if he's got any or when he's expecting some more. Waiting to hear.

Daisy was badly pyramided when I got her at three months old. I got her right after I read Richard Fifes' Leopard Tortoise Book where he revealed the humidity for desert species thing. She's the first one I've tried to raise with humidity. Since that time, I've learned that the first few weeks are the most critical for establishing a pattern of smooth growth. Here she is around two years ago when I first got her:






Here she is just a few days ago. The new growth SEEMS a little smoother, but time will tell. I'm still not convinced that pyramiding can be stopped once it starts. They all tend to smooth out as they get big, but since all three of my big ones are smoothing out while still in the same bone dry conditions they were raised in, I don't think it has anything to do with humidity. I need to hatch one or more and keep them humid from literally day one and see if I can grow them smooth. If I grow new hatchlings smooth in the exact same conditions as all my other ones, EXCEPT for high humidity, I will have my answer. Everyone else can still argue about it all they want, but I will know for sure. If I have mixed or partial results, then it will still be open for discussion with me.


----------



## Redfoot NERD (Mar 27, 2010)

Congrats on getting those G. p. pardalis!!!

As far as your 'humid-hide' brainstorm Tom - I agree..... and others with all of their old traditional denial can scream and act as they want to.. but I spray mine "til-they-drip" literally from day one; as soon as the yolk-sac is absorbed enough to be put into the 'nursery' enclosure! This is a typical example hatched here..






And June '07..






My findings are.. the older they are the less bumpy they become if/when that "daily" spraying ceases indoors when the ambient temps are 'drier' as a result of the small heaters used in their winter building. A "drier" ( 3-4 month ) winter makes a difference. In the wild they must know how to find or have available the 'right' humid conditions.. huh?

I spoke with Richard on the phone [ can't believe it has been 5 years ago ] and he told me of his findings with the humid hides! Sept. '06 Reptiles magazine.. Jon Coote/T-Rex spoke of 'humid-hides' for hatchlings also. 

FWIW...

Terry K

BTW.. just looking at the older pics of the leos touches a soft spot!


----------

