# Intranuclear Coccidiosis (Tortoise Bubonic Plague)



## tortadise

For lack of words this is a very limited study of infection in chelonians and reptiles. This tends to be apparent in all species but plays a particular role of fatal infection in most. More commonly deadly(really deadly to begin with) in astrochelys radiata. Little is known of this strain of coccidia. Case studies are very limited. But I will advise after researching this "bubonic plague" for tortoises and turtles, to start doing cloaca swabs of your animals(specifically new additions). In many cases of "bio-security" as member Will defines in another posthttp://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-66974.html. This level of testing for this highly infectious and very deadly is to be known more upon the sciences and medicinal aspects in this field. I cannot express enough reason to follow the guidelines of practicing safe tortoise/turtle keeping. Any size collection none the less needs to undergo a sense of quarantine for new animals or even just yearly exams/checks. I have been doing a lot of research on this with a few veterinarians, histopathoolgists, and professors of veterinary medicine. This seems to have a very very rare case of exposure. But none the less far more advanced and fatal than that of Mycoplasma, herpes, or any other common strain of protozoa in chelonian species. The way to test for this is to do cloaca swabs and send to a laboratory for bacterial/viral panel test. Typically takes a few weeks for results.

This infection can be spread among the easiest forms of transportation and that which we do not regularly deem "I was safe" conditions. Hands, feet, water, plants, flies, gnats, saliva of other chelonians housed together, fecal excrement smeared or carried from other animals feet to "tear apart a piece of green leaf", even finding worms in the soil it COULD be contaminated with, and then feeding to your animal. Little is known of the incubation of this nasty virus. The origins are not known either. Nor that of treatment. Published article is very vague but none the less a good start to make awareness to such deadly viruses our precious animals, hobby, business, or shelled friend could possible suffer from.

One case study done on a leopard tortoise was with the following histopath report. Luckily I had been able to be part of sharing this information and help out the tortoise community in awareness of an everyday new find in the sciences of this hobby.

Northwest Zoopath
http://www.zoopath.com/Services.htm
Michael M. Garner, DVM, Dipl. ACVP

"HISTORY: This greater than 30-year-old, the animal became inappetent, and was diagnosed with yolk coelomitis based on laparoscopic exam. Supportive care was administered, but the animal developed severe tenacious mucoid/diphtheric stomatitis/ileus, and died. Necropsy revealed a steel gray liver, mucoid colitis, yolk coelomitis, stomatitis, rhinitis, glossitis, and conjunctivitis.

CLINICAL DIAGNOSIS: Yolk coelomitis, possible herpes or iridovirus infection.

GROSS: Received in formalin are 18 tissues to 7 cm. in greatest dimension that are processed in nine blocks following appropriate decalcification of blocks #8-9.

MICROSCOPIC: Intranuclear coccidia in various stages of development are present in epithelial cells of the lung, ependyma, tongue, liver, gallbladder, kidney, esophagus, small intestine, colon, ureter, gallbladder, pancreas, and oviduct. Developmental stages are associated with varying degrees epithelial necrosis and lymphoplasmacytic inflammation. In the colon, the lesion is also associated with erosions and transmural edema. In the kidney, the lesion is associated with renal tubular dilatation, urate stasis, and necrosis. Ovary: Numerous follicles are degenerative. Coelomic cavity: Serosal surfaces have several adhesions and histiocytic inflammation with fibrin deposition and phagocytized yolk material.

HISTOPATHOLOGIC DIAGNOSIS: Intranuclear coccidiosis.

COMMENT: Histologic findings are consistent with fulminant disseminated intranuclear coccidiosis. There is no evidence of herpesvirus infection in the soft tissue sections.  Microscopic examination of the decalcified head is pending with an addendum to follow."


Few articles portraying this viciously rare virus in chelonians
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...88&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102084083501
http://www.vetcontact.com/en/art.php?a=1188&t=


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## ascott

Thank you for this share.


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## tortadise

To sum it up if you do not want to read it all and look through the links. This is my bible that built my quarantine regimes and facilitates a strong belief of "better safe than sorry". I care a lot about the tortoises we all keep and cherish about as our pets, conservation specimens, breeders, or inherited animals from our grandparents. After all even if you know who you are buying from, you still don't know what the animal could potentially have. Captive bred or not. The limits of rarity plays no vital importance in my opinion. People win the lottery all the time, even with outrageous odds against them. Always quarantine, always check and double check, and always never second guess the health of an animal. All my opinions on "adding" new animals, or "should I separate the new guy?" or "how long should I keep him alone before adding him to the group". I might be OCD and over zealous about rare infections but this and being a part of learning new and ongoing studies with very intellectual people in the research, and veterinarian field just fuels my fire to helping build a stronger presences in this world of chelonian.




ascott said:


> Thank you for this share.



My pleasure. Wish we new more on this.


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## ascott

Man, these creatures have survived and thrived for a few years D) now...it is amazing to me how what we consider minor changes can so change the health in such a drastic way....evolution in motion is an awesome machine for sure....thank you again.


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## tortadise

It sure is. The thing with this is that a lot of the studies an cases of it were randomly through out the early 90's to today. The test are not typical at all for even experienced chelonian veterinarians. The cloaca swab is usually not even thought of. Even fecal exams (and I have done hundreds of them) are very hard to see coccidias unless copies of extreme cases are present in the animal. This strain however is only tested through the lab mentioned, and certain research institutes. So any tortoise owner cant run to the vet and say I want a intranuclear coccidiosis swab run and sent off to the lab. We as humans definitely take for granted our society and what we don't see. Even in our hobby or love for something.


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## ascott

> We as humans definitely take for granted our society and what we don't see



What a perfect statement. I completely agree. Sometimes just when we think we are so smart, we are humbly reminded, we know nothing....


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## Kapidolo Farms

Hey,

Just to be straight with a few terms, they are not a virus. They are a larger organism, similar to bacteria, but there are many differences such a different DNA architecture. Coccidian are actual animals/plants, which bacteria are not.

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coccidia

for a general definition.

One of these organisms is what snake keepers fear, causing Cryptosporidiosis.

No matter, as Kelly points out they are bad. 

http://vet.sagepub.com/content/43/3/311.full.pdf+html for a open source (free) full text article that Kelly references.

Will


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## Redstrike

ascott said:


> Man, these creatures have survived and thrived for a few years D) now...it is amazing to me how what we consider minor changes can so change the health in such a drastic way....evolution in motion is an awesome machine for sure....thank you again.



If you haven't read the book "Parasite Rex", I'd highly recommend it. The author suggests pathogens & parasites are one of the primary drivers of evolutionary processes (vs. top-down or bottom-up controls).


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## tortadise

Thanks Will. I am definitely not an organism or micro biologist type. Your clarified words are great add to this thead.









Will said:


> Hey,
> 
> Just to be straight with a few terms, they are not a virus. They are a larger organism, similar to bacteria, but there are many differences such a different DNA architecture. Coccidian are actual animals/plants, which bacteria are not.
> 
> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coccidia
> 
> for a general definition.
> 
> One of these organisms is what snake keepers fear, causing Cryptosporidiosis.
> 
> No matter, as Kelly points out they are bad.
> 
> http://vet.sagepub.com/content/43/3/311.full.pdf+html for a open source (free) full text article that Kelly references.
> 
> Will


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## deadheadvet

I'd like to chime in here on this disease because I have been involved in many discussions regarding Intranuclear Coccidiosis.
First of all it has been reported in multiple species of tortoises. The first likely case goes back to 1974 in a Radiated Tortoise from St. Catherine's Island. The first documented case was in 1994 in 2 Radiated Tortoises from that same group.
Right now it is not sure what the pathogenesis is. It does not show up on fecal analysis. PCR at the University of Florida on a cloacal swab is the only way to determine the presence right now except at necropsy. mortality can be as high as 100%.
There is some success using Ponazuril to treat any positive animals if caught early enough. The key is screening a collection before the animals are too debilitated for the treatment to be ineffective.
The best recommendations as previously stated would be to:
Quarantine new additions.
Test any new animals to be sure negative before introduction.
We are not sure how widespread Intranuclear Coccidiosis is. We are in the process of looking at funding to epidemiologically assess that scenario. The more collectors are willing to test, the better we are at finding out how to manage this disease.


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## Tom

This stuff scares the crap out of me.

Wen I buy new animals I prefer to get the, from backyard breeders with only one species that they've had for a long time. I feel this reduces the risk vs. buying from a large breeder with lots of species and lots of animals coming and going all the time.

My intention for the future is to get my foundation animals as CB stock and then go on complete lock down. Nothing new will come in. Only babies will go out.


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## tortadise

Tom said:


> This stuff scares the crap out of me.
> 
> Wen I buy new animals I prefer to get the, from backyard breeders with only one species that they've had for a long time. I feel this reduces the risk vs. buying from a large breeder with lots of species and lots of animals coming and going all the time.
> 
> My intention for the future is to get my foundation animals as CB stock and then go on complete lock down. Nothing new will come in. Only babies will go out.



Sounds like a very good plan indeed Tom. However this can be transmitted to CB,WC,CH, CBB etc.. Which indeed to me scares the crap out me too. I do have to say though. Fortunately it is very very rare. 

deadheadvet thank you for giving a DVM perspective on this. Its hard for someone like me to relay conversations, emails, and communications from researchers, DVMs, and pathologists and remembering exactly what to "regurgitate" in a fashion. I for one am one of those people willing to partake in these studies for sure. I started now to do swabs and send them to the University Lab. Makes me wonder really if this inst so common after all. A lot of people don't do necropsy, and definitely don't think to do a cloaca swab and send to the University. I hope this never becomes an issue in this trade. Preventative measures are what I am doing now.


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## deadheadvet

I would have to disagree with the rarity classification. With the information I have been made aware of, it is likely more common than we would like. It has been reported in Indian Star tortoises, Radiated tortoises, Leopard tortoises, Forstens tortoises, Impressed tortoises, and some species of turtles. The only way we get get a true statistical data base as to its true spread is if collectors will test their collection and find out if it exists. Better to know if you have it and start treating before these animals become debilitated and it's too late.


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## sibi

How long is the incubation period of this organism before manifesting symptoms, and once infected, what would be some of the symptoms that owners could spot so as to have testing done before it's too late? Also, once infected and it goes undetected, how long does it take before death becomes imminent? Does anyone know?


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## tortadise

I do not know the incubation period. Or the timeframe when an animal contracts it and then shows signs. My understanding is that lethargy is a good sign. Loss of appetite, mucus discharge from eyes and nasal.cavity, heavy thick mucus. A vet I have been talking to about it states, its possible for animals to carry it and show no signs of having issues. Deadheadvet is spot on. I incorrectly stated the rarity of it. It's rare to many keepers because its typically not tested for. So with that being known. His statement of hoping more keepers test and provide information of animals with it is what I get from him and the vet I have been inquiring on this organism about. Way out of my realm to stating those answers Sibi. At least with an accuracy.


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## sibi

Do you know how much the test cost? I know a doc at UF vet hosp that can do the test, but I have three sullies and I would like to know how much it would cost me.



tortadise said:


> I do not know the incubation period. Or the timeframe when an animal contracts it and then shows signs. My understanding is that lethargy is a good sign. Loss of appetite, mucus discharge from eyes and nasal.cavity, heavy thick mucus. A vet I have been talking to about it states, its possible for animals to carry it and show no signs of having issues. Deadheadvet is spot on. I incorrectly stated the rarity of it. It's rare to many keepers because its typically not tested for. So with that being known. His statement of hoping more keepers test and provide information of animals with it is what I get from him and the vet I have been inquiring on this organism about. Way out of my realm to stating those answers Sibi. At least with an accuracy.


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## tortadise

I was told 100 per animal. Or 500 for 25 swabs.


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## sibi

Thanks for all your info Kelly.


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## tortadise

No problem. They University typically wont do it for anyone. But if you know people there hope it works. I have to do my send outs through my local vet. It does not matter to me though. I will pay what needs to be preventative or just cautious with my animals. Better safe than sorry right.


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## deadheadvet

There have been reported cases of very acute illness in younger animals and early death and older animals having more slower protracted disease and ultimate death. IT has as been reported as early as 2 week incubation dependent on exposure but still unknown how it is transmitted.
There are 2 ways to test:
1. Quick PCR which will only look for the exact DNA sequence of the coccidia in question. Faster results. Could be less expensive since the lab can run 24 samples on 1 gel plate and you pay for the number of tests you are running on that plate. Sometimes it's worth waiting a little bit of time until a full plate is being run.
2. Full PCR: complete DNA breakdown which looks at the full sequence in case there could be other coccidia causing this. Right now it is the belief it is one type of Eimeria that is the culprit.
Cost is more and takes longer to get results.
3. It is possible to run pooled samples on multiple animals to reduce cost. The only risk is if the result is positive, each animal has to be retested.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Another good overview, with a broader focus than chelonians is ...

http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/digestive_system/coccidiosis/overview_of_coccidiosis.html

as suggested by another TFO member (sorry I forget who).

Chickens are "shot gun" treated. Ag extension services have many web pages concerning the effect of different species of this group of pathoegns on chickens, along with husbandry and cleaning protocols to reduce spread, and even a few therapies for infected flocks.. But collectively chickens are worth hundreds of millions of $$, so they get a bit ore attention than chelonians. 

Birds and reptiles have much in common as well as differences. deadheadvet - any traction on a chelonian perspective with this disease from the poultry industry?

Will


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## deadheadvet

The treatment in chickens has not been effective for this form of coccidia. We think Ponazuril will be effective. The coccidiastats in chickens show no efficacy against this because it is an intranuclear form of coccidia and the other drugs don't seem to penetrate the cell as well.


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## Kapidolo Farms

deadheadvet said:


> The treatment in chickens has not been effective for this form of coccidia. We think Ponazuril will be effective. The coccidiastats in chickens show no efficacy against this because it is an intranuclear form of coccidia and the other drugs don't seem to penetrate the cell as well.



So this would point to something I am not finding in what I read, or at least beyond what I understand from what I read.

inTRAnuclear (not inTERnuclear) indicates to me they reside in the membrane that also contains the nucleus of each cell, so this coocidian organism in behind the cell membrane and also behind the nuclear membrane? Maybe I have this wrong? I have not been able to sort that out when I read some of the articles I have found.

To move from one cell to another some part of the life cycle has to leave this double membrane residence, and wouldn't that mean that part of the life cycle is the point where some compound would have efficacy?

What am I missing here in this understanding?

Will


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## deadheadvet

Intranuclear in that the organism is somehow incorporating its DNA into the cells via plasmid or some other mechanism that is not understood. So not extra cellular but outside the nucleus of the cell.


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## Kapidolo Farms

deadheadvet said:


> Intranuclear in that the organism is somehow incorporating its DNA into the cells via plasmid or some other mechanism that is not understood. So not extra cellular but outside the nucleus of the cell.



So when the cell divides the disease organism (or some phase of it) 'hitches' a ride, and is not extra cellular?

Will


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## deadheadvet

That is correct.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Well Kelly, now I better understand your use of the word 'virus' to describe this disease process. Coccidians are a protozoan, seems like maybe they are 'infected' with the plasmids. But then we are 'infected' with mitochondria, so maybe that is not the case at all. Creepy sh*t non-the-less.

Will


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## tortadise

Very creepy. Thanks for all the valid educated comments and discussed terminology and clarification from you Will. You and Evan sure did make this post a good reason why I wanted to put it out here. Scary stuff for sure. Again thanks Evan and Will for the advanced comments.


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## deadheadvet

I hope that the people this forum read this thread and look at their collection and give serious thought as to have there ever been an animal that had a questionable illness at any point that was never pursued. You are absolutely crazy not to test due to the high mortality rate this disease carries. I for one would never buy an animal that was not tested prior to purchase. The thought of losing an entire collection due to this is unnerving. I would still quarantine on top of a negative test as well.


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## tortadise

deadheadvet said:


> I hope that the people this forum read this thread and look at their collection and give serious thought as to have there ever been an animal that had a questionable illness at any point that was never pursued. You are absolutely crazy not to test due to the high mortality rate this disease carries. I for one would never buy an animal that was not tested prior to purchase. The thought of losing an entire collection due to this is unnerving. I would still quarantine on top of a negative test as well.



Agreed. My swabs will be off tomorrow. 9 species and 24 samples. Lets hope im not a victim of this lurker.


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## deadheadvet

I have a couple of samples in my freezer i'm holding to send out as well. Waiting on one tortoise to defecate and then I'll send them out.


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## mking

I just had all my tortoises swabbed on Monday. Basically I just printed out this discussion and the sheets for submitting to the lab in Florida and let my vet take a look at it. Cost me an arm and a leg and took multiple trips to take care of everyone but I will let you know what results I get. My vet mentioned some concern on the effectiveness of Ponazuril on something that is intracellular since it won't reach all the places that the original post stated as infected however, he is looking into the matter and interested in how this pans out for me. 




deadheadvet said:


> There is some success using Ponazuril to treat any positive animals if caught early enough. The key is screening a collection before the animals are too debilitated for the treatment to be ineffective.
> The best recommendations as previously stated would be to:
> Quarantine new additions.
> Test any new animals to be sure negative before introduction.
> We are not sure how widespread Intranuclear Coccidiosis is. We are in the process of looking at funding to epidemiologically assess that scenario. The more collectors are willing to test, the better we are at finding out how to manage this disease.


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## Sulcata_Sandy

Can Idexx run this test? Or does this lab in Florida have a specific test for it?


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## deadheadvet

Only the Univ. fla. Is running the test. Best results are from a cloacal swab (vigorous swirl inside the cloaca) for best result. We have had mixed results on cases depending on when the diagnosis was made. The key is early detection and length of treatment. The latest recommendation is Ponazuril 25mg/kg orally every other day for a minimum of 45 days and up to 60. Best to separate out the animals since transmission still not understood and reinfection likely. There could be a vector involved in this. Mosquitos, lizards, flies potentially could be spreading the oocysts.
You are welcome to PM for for detailed questions regarding the topic. There are a few veterinarians with a lot of experience treating this disease. It's really bad and difficult to get under control. Can wipe out a whole collection.


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## tortadise

mking said:


> I just had all my tortoises swabbed on Monday. Basically I just printed out this discussion and the sheets for submitting to the lab in Florida and let my vet take a look at it. Cost me an arm and a leg and took multiple trips to take care of everyone but I will let you know what results I get. My vet mentioned some concern on the effectiveness of Ponazuril on something that is intracellular since it won't reach all the places that the original post stated as infected however, he is looking into the matter and interested in how this pans out for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> deadheadvet said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is some success using Ponazuril to treat any positive animals if caught early enough. The key is screening a collection before the animals are too debilitated for the treatment to be ineffective.
> The best recommendations as previously stated would be to:
> Quarantine new additions.
> Test any new animals to be sure negative before introduction.
> We are not sure how widespread Intranuclear Coccidiosis is. We are in the process of looking at funding to epidemiologically assess that scenario. The more collectors are willing to test, the better we are at finding out how to manage this disease.
Click to expand...


keep me posted on it Mary Lee. I hope all ends well and tests come back negative. As for the Ponazuril. I have had Mary lee the cherryhead that tested positive for this for 5 months now. Vast improvement. Extreme turn around. For now pending results just practice a very very tight bio-security protocol. Quarantine subject animals. use gloves. Don't step into their enclosure then another one. Basically treat them like a hospital surgery room.


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## Bryan

Does this form of Coccidiosis affect other animals as well of just Chelonians? Also are the tests done by most vets or do they have to be spent to specific labs? Thanks, Bryan


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## deadheadvet

This is a very specific type of Coccidia. It is a certain Eimeria species so far only found in turtles and tortoises. This test run at Univ. Fla. is a PCR test looking for this strand of DNA. There are other types of coccidia common in Chameleons, Anoles, and other lizards that are easy to find in fresh fecal samples. This particular species of Eimeria does not shed in the feces, therefore very difficult to identify. Hence Intranuclear (inside the cell) coccidiosis. It was just recently reported in Redfoot tortoises among at least a dozen other species. First known confirmed case was 1994 in a Radiated tortoise from St. Catherine's Island. I have reliable info that this disease likely goes back to the early 1970's but there wasn't the sophisticated testing we have today to have identified the organism back then. I can't emphasize enough how important it is to screen collections to be sure the organism does not exist.


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## Bryan

deadheadvet said:


> This is a very specific type of Coccidia. It is a certain Eimeria species so far only found in turtles and tortoises. This test run at Univ. Fla. is a PCR test looking for this strand of DNA. There are other types of coccidia common in Chameleons, Anoles, and other lizards that are easy to find in fresh fecal samples. This particular species of Eimeria does not shed in the feces, therefore very difficult to identify. Hence Intranuclear (inside the cell) coccidiosis. It was just recently reported in Redfoot tortoises among at least a dozen other species. First known confirmed case was 1994 in a Radiated tortoise from St. Catherine's Island. I have reliable info that this disease likely goes back to the early 1970's but there wasn't the sophisticated testing we have today to have identified the organism back then. I can't emphasize enough how important it is to screen collections to be sure the organism does not exist.



Thanks, is it something that decimates populations regardless of health or does it seem to decimate animals that are stressed ie. in shipping, cold spells, unclean environments, etc.?


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## deadheadvet

It seems that stress does play a role in this. There has been some discussion whether there is some other variable that makes the coccidiosis perform more aggressively but that has not been identified so far. We thought that possible another virus might be involved but nothing has turned as of yet. There has been discussion that rain may stress these guys and immunocompromise them. Specifically for outdoor animals.


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## Bryan

deadheadvet said:


> It seems that stress does play a role in this. There has been some discussion whether there is some other variable that makes the coccidiosis perform more aggressively but that has not been identified so far. We thought that possible another virus might be involved but nothing has turned as of yet. There has been discussion that rain may stress these guys and immunocompromise them. Specifically for outdoor animals.



Thanks, that's even scarier as you may not see any symptoms in the animal or group until they get stressed. This is not uncommon in animals as when they are healthy and have an abundance of food their immune systems are operating at peak performance, but once stress or hunger kicks in their immune systems become compromised. In your previous post you mentioned that you believe that there may have been unconfirmed cases since the 70's, do you have an idea of which species it originally entered the pet trade from?


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## deadheadvet

Radiated Tortoise. I was speaking with Dr. Jacobson on the subject recently and it was his opinion about a case he was involved in back then that had all of the signs we are currently seeing now for this disease. You have to remember that there are a lot of unreported deaths that we just don't know about that may be involved with this. Necropsies are so important when done in time.


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## Bryan

deadheadvet said:


> Radiated Tortoise. I was speaking with Dr. Jacobson on the subject recently and it was his opinion about a case he was involved in back then that had all of the signs we are currently seeing now for this disease. You have to remember that there are a lot of unreported deaths that we just don't know about that may be involved with this. Necropsies are so important when done in time.



Thanks, from what you've seen do Radiateds have a bit more of a tolerance/resistance to it than other species since it may well have originated in the radiateds natural range?


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## deadheadvet

From the cases reported, I would say no. They are just as likely to die if infected and not treated early enough. There have been some successful outcomes in collections where animals were found positive in screening large groups and responded well to treatment.


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## Sulcata_Sandy

Has anyone complied a list of symptoms?
I've read some brief case reports, and initially is sounds like Redfoots where affected, but several reports I came across notes various species from mediteranians to African tortoises. I was hoping there would be a possible signalment or "breed predilection" like my "joke" at the hospital...

"It's a Pom, so it's Cushinoid until proven otherwise". (Nothing against Poms, one of my fav breeds).

I'd like to help compile a sort of information/treatment sheet to disseminate to veterinarians/keepers/breeders. I have four reptile DVMs I work with (two at my own practice) who are very interested in this organism.

For those of you sending in swabs to screen, are you paying the $100 test fee listed on UFs Diagnostic Lab fee schedule? My boss and I are calling the lab tomorrow for more information and possibly a group price for our hospital account. Maybe I can get us all a discount. We are also interested in performing necropsies at no cost if keepers are willing to ship us the animal frozen.

I'd love to hear some thoughs.


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## deadheadvet

Having submitted a lot of samples, there are no group prices. PCR testing is very expensive! 90$ for the first sample and 30$ for every additional sample for qPCR which is very specific for the strand of DNA for this particular type of Eimeria. If you are testing for All sequencing of DNA, 100$ per sample.
I have actually done both depending on the case. 
As far as ill animals go. Usually they go off feed quickly, runny eyes, diarrhea, no weight loss because very acute illness and death in a matter of 
7-10 days.
In larger collections, it is possible to submit group samples to reduce cost.
Vigorous cloacal swabs is the best way to get an accurate test result.
We take a mini culturette, flip the tortoise over plastron facing you and insert the culturette into the cloaca and swirl it around vigorously, then transfer it into a sterile red top plain tube. Samples are then sent FEDEX priority overnight to U of F for analysis. I have tested every single animal in my collection. I have tested for Mycoplasma as well. 
The number of known reported species include:
Radiated tortoise, Leopard Tortoise, Redfoot Tortoise, Yellowfoot Tortoise, Forstens Tortoise, Impressed Tortoise, Burmese Star Tortoise, Indian Star Tortoise, African Spur Thighed Tortoise, A Few Aquatic Turtles,


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## Sulcata_Sandy

Cost: Nevermind, found the post "$100 ea or $500 for 25".
I'm still going to call the lab and see if our account can be used for us here to submit as needed, and possible get a discount on those of us with fewer animals. Or maybe we can pool a submission...like I send Sylvia 8 swabs, she add hers, someone else adds the remainder and we all pay $20/animal.


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## cdmay

deadheadvet said:


> From the cases reported, I would say no. They are just as likely to die if infected and not treated early enough. There have been some successful outcomes in collections where animals were found positive in screening large groups and responded well to treatment.



That is encouraging. I still am not really clear about one aspect of this issue though...it has been often repeated that extreme quarantine procedures are needed to prevent the spread of IC. That sounds good. 
But if the disease can be transmitted by simply stepping from one pen into another, then how long does the organism survive in the environment?
In other words, suppose and infected tortoise lived in an outdoor pen while contagious but that animal was then removed. For how long would that area be off limits to reintroduction? A week? A month? A year?
If a keeper has infected animals in his or her yard that are being treated, is it pointless to treat them while they remain in that yard?


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## Sulcata_Sandy

deadheadvet said:


> Having submitted a lot of samples, there are no group prices. PCR testing is very expensive! 90$ for the first sample and 30$ for every additional sample for qPCR which is very specific for the strand of DNA for this particular type of Eimeria. If you are testing for All sequencing of DNA, 100$ per sample.
> I have actually done both depending on the case.
> As far as ill animals go. Usually they go off feed quickly, runny eyes, diarrhea, no weight loss because very acute illness and death in a matter of
> 7-10 days.
> In larger collections, it is possible to submit group samples to reduce cost.
> Vigorous cloacal swabs is the best way to get an accurate test result.
> We take a mini culturette, flip the tortoise over plastron facing you and insert the culturette into the cloaca and swirl it around vigorously, then transfer it into a sterile red top plain tube. Samples are then sent FEDEX priority overnight to U of F for analysis. I have tested every single animal in my collection. I have tested for Mycoplasma as well.
> The number of known reported species include:
> Radiated tortoise, Leopard Tortoise, Redfoot Tortoise, Yellowfoot Tortoise, Forstens Tortoise, Impressed Tortoise, Burmese Star Tortoise, Indian Star Tortoise, African Spur Thighed Tortoise, A Few Aquatic Turtles,



Dang yer fast! [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]

Thank you for the above, very helpful. I'm adding to my notes as we "speak".
Is a sterile cotton tipped applicator acceptable? I have many in stock, or I can order mini-culturettes. I have a ton of Copan swabs, but I assume the culture medium is useless?


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## deadheadvet

Since the transmission has not been worked out, you need to isolate the infected animals for sure. The pen needs to be left empty if possible since the organism is in there. The issue is how are the other animals getting contaminated. This we do not know. I have spoken to a couple Parasitologists on the subject and the best way to kill off the oocysts is heat and direct sunlight. How long will it take, unknown. Since the organism has been found in the conjunctiva of infected animals, it may be transmitted through direct contact of infected animals, since runny eyes is very common when these animals are sick, so isolation is very important. Removing all fecal material from the pens is also important.
I spoke to a large collector who treated a large group of animals, and they removed everything from the enclosure that could be removed. They blowtorched all permanent structures not made of wood. 
If you don't treat any positive animal, likely they will die.


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## Sulcata_Sandy

So, with as little as we currently understand, would a current recommended quarantine period for new acquisitions be 90 days? 6 months? A year?
I understand it is all speculative at this point, but possible having basic guidelines to educate keepers would be a great place to start, then making changes as new information and experiences come along.


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## deadheadvet

Sulcata_Sandy said:


> So, with as little as we currently understand, would a current recommended quarantine period for new acquisitions be 90 days? 6 months? A year?
> I understand it is all speculative at this point, but possible having basic guidelines to educate keepers would be a great place to start, then making changes as new information and experiences come along.


The swabs you have are fine if they will fit up the cloaca, don't use the transport media. Put the swab into a plain red top tube.
Quarantine should be a minimum of 90 days possibly 6 months. I have a new group of tortoises that will be isolated until the spring. They came as a group, so they are kept together and were tested immediately upon arrival. Still will be isolated to make sure they will not show any signs of illness or not put them at risk from any of my other animals as well. Even though all of my other animals are fine. New animals are always at risk until settled in. Stress plays a big role in the disease process.


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## Sulcata_Sandy

Thank you.
I'm going to state in my info sheet "minimum 90 day quarantine/isolation, 6 months recommended". Can I email you my rough draft? Going to be a bit, as I am also revising the Sulcata care sheet on VeterinaryPartner.com. EEEEEK!


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## deadheadvet

Sulcata_Sandy said:


> Thank you.
> I'm going to state in my info sheet "minimum 90 day quarantine/isolation, 6 months recommended". Can I email you my rough draft? Going to be a bit, as I am also revising the Sulcata care sheet on VeterinaryPartner.com. EEEEEK!


sure


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## Bryan

Does anyone have any idea on how long of an incubation/infection period an animal can have before showing symptoms?


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## deadheadvet

Bryan said:


> Does anyone have any idea on how long of an incubation/infection period an animal can have before showing symptoms?


Weeks to months


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## Bryan

deadheadvet said:


> Bryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any idea on how long of an incubation/infection period an animal can have before showing symptoms?
> 
> 
> 
> Weeks to months
Click to expand...


So in theory a year long quarantine should be sufficient?


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## deadheadvet

I know of a case where a tortoise showed signs almost a year later and died. It's a question of when the infected tortoise becomes exposed and how long before signs show up. My advice is to test a collection, know it's clean and isolate any new additions for at least 3-6 months and test those new animals.


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## Sulcata_Sandy

While that is horribly tragic, would you say it's less likely? I'm working on recommendations/treatment protocol/isolation for this disease, planning to disseminate to reptile DVMs and anyone else interested, however recommending to everyone they quarantine for a year and/or screen each new acquisition is going to discourage a lot of would-be keepers who tortoises need for better homes and even species conservation. I guess it's sort of a "double edged sword".
I have five DVMs assisting in the development of this information sheet. Planning to keep is very open and encourage testing, but try not to scare anyone off. Thoughts? Am I way off base?


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## sibi

Sandy, I'll send you the phone number of someone at UF that knows more on this disease. He treated Beasty Boy last year and alerted me to this disease last year. I was concerned about Baby Runt who I just received.


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## deadheadvet

The best way for me to put this is:
Those with large, valuable collections will test and quarantine new additions because it will limit spread and exposure of dangerous pathogens. Those with small collections or individual animals, or 
Tortoises on the inexpensive side, will see this only as a dollars and cents thing and can't justify the cost of the test. That is a hurdle that serious tortoise keepers will never be able to overcome. That is why this disease will be difficult to overcome. The failure of collectors to test will continue to cause the spread of this organism. I have passed on numerous purchases because the seller refused to test their animals.


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## cdmay

deadheadvet said:


> The best way for me to put this is:
> Those with large, valuable collections will test and quarantine new additions because it will limit spread and exposure of dangerous pathogens. Those with small collections or individual animals, or
> Tortoises on the inexpensive side, will see this only as a dollars and cents thing and can't justify the cost of the test. That is a hurdle that serious tortoise keepers will never be able to overcome. That is why this disease will be difficult to overcome. The failure of collectors to test will continue to cause the spread of this organism. I have passed on numerous purchases because the seller refused to test their animals.



All true statements. But I would also add this...there are those who have collections that have had no new introductions for over a year, or even two years and have never had any illness issues or symptoms during that time. I would include myself in this group. Should these people also test their animals or is it safe to assume (I know, this is stupid to do) they are 'clean'. 
Testing would be great if it was simple and inexpensive. BUT, my local veterinarian only does the cloacal swab for $50.00. I then have to take the swab to FedEx myself (which is another $40.00) and have it sent to the University of Florida which I am told charges another $100.00 per test. If I have 10 animals in my collection you're starting to talk about some serious money to test for something I have never seen a symptom of. 
So I can understand why many keepers aren't all jumping on the bandwagon to test their collections. It may not be the best situation, but I understand it.


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## deadheadvet

Lot of misinformation on testing. Closed collection obviously at lower risk. You could random test some animals or test animals as a group with multiple swabs to reduce cost. That's what I have done. The qPCR is the way to go. 90 first sample, 30 each additional.


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## AnnV

*Re: RE: Intranuclear Coccidiosis (Tortoise Bubonic Plague)*



deadheadvet said:


> Lot of misinformation on testing. Closed collection obviously at lower risk. You could random test some animals or test animals as a group with multiple swabs to reduce cost. That's what I have done. The qPCR is the way to go. 90 first sample, 30 each additional.



Have you heard of false negatives from the PCR testing? I mean it could be missed with this method, right?
Do you foresee the accessibility and affordability improving in the near future?


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## deadheadvet

False negatives are possible. If the DNA copies are not present at the time of sampling, you will get a false negative. That's why you need a good cloacal swab to be sure the result will be valid.


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## cdmay

deadheadvet said:


> Lot of misinformation on testing.



That is obviously true. However the costs and hassle I mentioned were exactly what a buddy of mine here locally went through to have one of his animals tested. We use the same vet as good reptile vets aren't exactly that common. I'm sure you could get some kind of break with multiple swabs though.


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## deadheadvet

I'm going to say this one more time.
I don't get any discounts just like the rest of you! The lab charges 90$ for the first sample if submitting for qPCR which is looking for only the specific sequence of coccidia that is the cause of this disease. Any additional sample is 30$. If you want to bundle multiple samples into one test, that is a way to save money. If it is negative, those animals are negative. If the test comes back positive, you will not know which animal is positive. I am not going to explain this anymore. The majority of the people on this forum seem to think that vets are getting some deal on the testing. Not happening. Go to the Univ. of Fla. Coll. Vet med web site and you will see the info there yourself.


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## cdmay

deadheadvet said:


> I'm going to say this one more time.
> I don't get any discounts just like the rest of you! The lab charges 90$ for the first sample if submitting for qPCR which is looking for only the specific sequence of coccidia that is the cause of this disease. Any additional sample is 30$. If you want to bundle multiple samples into one test, that is a way to save money. If it is negative, those animals are negative. If the test comes back positive, you will not know which animal is positive. I am not going to explain this anymore. The majority of the people on this forum seem to think that vets are getting some deal on the testing. Not happening. Go to the Univ. of Fla. Coll. Vet med web site and you will see the info there yourself.



_Whoa!_ easy there Head!
I meant you might get a discount for multiple swabs, from the vet who takes the the swabs...not from the University of Florida. I think we get the point about what UF charges.
We might not all be veterinarians but that doesn't mean we're idiots you know.


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## deadheadvet

So now you know the cost. If your vet is going to charge too much for obtaining the samples, then find someone else who won't. As far as being treated as idiots. Sorry about that, but I've had this discussion over a dozen times and it's the same thing, how do I get a discount on samples. U of F is discounting all the sample after the first one. 90 down to 30. If you want complete DNA sequencing, gonna get expensive. 100$ per test no discounts on any volume. Very labor intensive test. 2 weeks minimum on results.


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## AnnV

*Re: RE: Intranuclear Coccidiosis (Tortoise Bubonic Plague)*



deadheadvet said:


> So now you know the cost. If your vet is going to charge too much for obtaining the samples, then find someone else who won't. As far as being treated as idiots. Sorry about that, but I've had this discussion over a dozen times and it's the same thing, how do I get a discount on samples. U of F is discounting all the sample after the first one. 90 down to 30. If you want complete DNA sequencing, gonna get expensive. 100$ per test no discounts on any volume. Very labor intensive test. 2 weeks minimum on results.



Thank you very much for your thorough explanation. It IS very much appreciated. 
You may not, but some vets really rake their clients over the coals when it comes to sending tests off. We are now aware, thanks to you, of the exact charge by UF. But there are vets who determine their own costs regardless of what they are charged. Also, they may or may not pass on any savings for multiple test discounts.
I am on a tick bite disease discussion group and we talk price all the time for various blood tests - the range is mind boggling, for the same tests through the same exact labs. It is highway robbery what some vets charge. Most labs will only deal with vets, so it is not an option to send yourself.


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## deadheadvet

I will put this out there. For anyone who wants to test their tortoises,
I will send the swabs and tubes to you with the form. You will tell me how many animals you want tested. You provide me with the species of tortoise and I.D. number of animal being tested. I will only charge the cost of the test, cost of the materials, shipping charge via US Postal, 2.5% credit card fee that Mastercard/Visa charges. There will be no profit in it for me. You will be responsible to send the samples to the Univ. of Fla. Lab. Samples must be sent Priority overnight. Results will be sent to me and I will forward them onto you once they are finalized. The deal is I will need to be paid in advance through my vet hospital so no shenanigans. As previously stated. The lab charges 90 for the first test, 30 for all additional samples. Let me know if anyone wants to test their collection.


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## cdmay

deadheadvet said:


> So now you know the cost. If your vet is going to charge too much for obtaining the samples, then find someone else who won't. As far as being treated as idiots. Sorry about that, but I've had this discussion over a dozen times and it's the same thing, how do I get a discount on samples. U of F is discounting all the sample after the first one. 90 down to 30. If you want complete DNA sequencing, gonna get expensive. 100$ per test no discounts on any volume. Very labor intensive test. 2 weeks minimum on results.



No worries. Much gets lost in translation on forums.
As AnnV stated... your information is highly appreciated.

For many of us spread across the country, finding a local *competent *veterinarian who treat reptiles is not so easy. Down here in south Florida there are a million dog/cat vets, many horse vets and then some who specialize in exotic birds. Very few treat reptiles, and even then they are sort of ambivalent about it. When I approached the two vets I know about IC you could almost see their eyes roll back in their heads.
Too bad Greg Flemming is gone--he was one reptile vet in Florida who would be all over something like this.


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## deadheadvet

Just keep in mind. Depending on where you are in Fla. The U of F has top notch people there especially Dr. Heard. I've spent a lot of time there throughout my career and they are the best. That is why they offer all the cutting edge testing on all of these reptile diseases. 
The other option I have done multiple times myself is shipping tortoises via FEDEX when I can't get my own animals to come around and need more diagnostics than I have available.
I have shipped them there and to an excellent reptile Vet in El Paso as well. All of my animals have traveled well. Some survived treatment, some not depending on the illness. That's tortoise collecting. They all don't make it. However I'll do whatever needs to be done. We have a responsibility once we take on the care of these animals. No one ever said it would be cheap. Boy don't I know it!


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## sibi

I, for one, appreciate that we're having this discussion because so many members claim they can't afford to buy a water dish or take their tort to a vet. Whether we own reptiles as breeders, hobbyist, or as a pets, we all know that many can't afford to own tortoises and maintain their care. As such, perhaps if they read this thread, they will do right by their animals and either refrain from buying tortoises especially cheaper sulcatas, or if they own tortoises, give them to those who they know can care for them financially and responsibly. This includes testing them for diseases such as this.


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## Sulcata_Sandy

Deadheadvet and I seem to be on the same wavelength.

I spoke with my boss/practice owner yesterday...and we'd like to offer the same assistance. Since Deadheadvet is on the east coast, and I'm on the west, maybe we can team up and help...sort of regionally take care of keepers. I'm in Oregon, so anyone out west I can ship free swabs and forms to (I have an account at UF), and Michelle will be the overseeing DVM. My techs can do a thorough cloacal swab, so it's not rocket surgery. [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES] and I am more than happy to call your local DVM and techs and talk them into doing this for free as a service to further research, and maybe coming from a peer vs a client will help...even though they should ALL offer this free to clients. (Shakes head).

Anyone in my area, I will do this for you.

Deadheadvet, would you be interested in writing up a brief procedure for a thorough c-swab? I can help disseminate those to keepers and hospitals out here.


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## deadheadvet

I'll post a youtube video in the next few weeks showing how to do it. Really easy, just requires a little patience with the tortoise. Once you see it, the keepers can do it themselves without bringing the tortoises in. Females are a little easier than males. The males you sometimes have to run their tails under warm water to get them to show their cloaca, then quickly insert the swab and swirl around.


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## Sulcata_Sandy

deadheadvet said:


> I'll post a youtube video in the next few weeks showing how to do it. Really easy, just requires a little patience with the tortoise. Once you see it, the keepers can do it themselves without bringing the tortoises in. Females are a little easier than males. The males you sometimes have to run their tails under warm water to get them to show their cloaca, then quickly insert the swab and swirl around.



Even better! I agree, super easy, no reason keepers can't do this at home. I've already ordered mini swabs from Idexx, so I can mail them out next week to anyone out in the wild Wild West that want 'em.

Are you on VIN or VSPN?


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## deadheadvet

Yup on VIN


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## sibi

A YouTube video would be great! I then can drive to UF and prearrange a drop off. If deadheadvet would receive the results, that would be the way to go for me. What kind of special packaging would I need to put the samples in for drop off ay UF?


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## deadheadvet

If you are going to bring the samples in person, need to keep them in a cooler until delivered.
They usually want the samples between Mon-Wed.


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## deadheadvet

Here are the links on You tube on how to do a cloacal swab for submitting samples. The tortoises I demo'ed with was a female which is much easier. Males will require more patience for them to show their cloaca with their longer tail. Keep that in mind.
http://youtu.be/piTUwsT-dyk
http://youtu.be/A7aYyl9Yv9o
http://youtu.be/Z5ZEggj238Q


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## sibi

Are the swabs in the mail yet? Thanks.


deadheadvet said:


> Here are the links on You tube on how to do a cloacal swab for submitting samples. The tortoises I demo'ed with was a female which is much easier. Males will require more patience for them to show their cloaca with their longer tail. Keep that in mind.
> http://youtu.be/piTUwsT-dyk
> http://youtu.be/A7aYyl9Yv9o
> http://youtu.be/Z5ZEggj238Q


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## deadheadvet

No, 
Need a bit of information first before I can send the supplies out.
I'll need to know how to identify the sample, i.e. Tortoise group name or number for example mine all have studbook numbers so I identify by their numbers or you can by name, or just say Sulcata group since it's a group sample.
Then you will need to call my office 919-469-0029 so we can get the tortoises set up in the computer, collect payment via c.c. Over the phone, and I'll send the kit out with the form filled out.
Any questions, I'll be more than happy to answer them for you over the phone
Dr. R.


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## tortadise

I like seeing these posts here. The more animals tested the better knowledge and information can be gained on this nasty stuff. Thanks Evan for doing this for people here.


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## deadheadvet

No problem Kelly. A very worthwhile disease. All tortoise keepers can get samples on their own. I forgot to mention, for really young tortoises, you can run tests on fresh feces, but cloacal swab is best. Just contact me if any interest on submitting samples.


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## sibi

Good. I'll do that asap. I have a critical care rescue that was suppose to pare of that group; however, it's very likely that she may pass away soon. She is isolated from the others, but should I still get her tested as part of this group? I have concerns about her because of her sickness and former husbandry.


deadheadvet said:


> No,
> Need a bit of information first before I can send the supplies out.
> I'll need to know how to identify the sample, i.e. Tortoise group name or number for example mine all have studbook numbers so I identify by their numbers or you can by name, or just say Sulcata group since it's a group sample.
> Then you will need to call my office 919-469-0029 so we can get the tortoises set up in the computer, collect payment via c.c. Over the phone, and I'll send the kit out with the form filled out.
> Any questions, I'll be more than happy to answer them for you over the phone
> Dr. R.


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## deadheadvet

I'd suggest testing her separately. I'm assuming your others are healthy and have been together for a while. If that is the case. Test the rehab animal separately, and the others as a group. You are looking at, 90$ for the group, 30$ for the rehab animal, 5$ for the shipping and supplies, and 3.13$
For c.c. fees. Your only additional cost is Fedex priority overnight to the lab.


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## sibi

Ok, I'll call your office. It's al.ozt 4 p.m. here. Is your office on eastern or central time? If on the east, it will be almost 5 p.m. Will they still be open?


deadheadvet said:


> I'd suggest testing her separately. I'm assuming your others are healthy and have been together for a while. If that is the case. Test the rehab animal separately, and the others as a group. You are looking at, 90$ for the group, 30$ for the rehab animal, 5$ for the shipping and supplies, and 3.13$
> For c.c. fees. Your only additional cost is Fedex priority overnight to the lab.


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## Sulcata_Sandy

I talked to April Childress at UF lab yesterday. She updated my hospital account and answered my questions promptly. I'm acquiring a female RF, presumably an older WC Venezuelan female. I plan to test her before I introduce her to my other RFs. 

Is there enough data collected to determine at least if this is coming from farm raised (like the mass produced Columbian RFs) or is it still very random at best?


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## cdmay

Sulcata_Sandy said:


> Is there enough data collected to determine at least if this is coming from farm raised (like the mass produced Columbian RFs) or is it still very random at best?



Determining the source, or sources of this outbreak would be quite interesting. But then as some of the members who are more familiar with IC than others of us have stated, it may have been around for a long time and just not identified.


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## deadheadvet

First confirmed case was 1994. Radiated Tortoise from St. Catherine's Island.
I can tell you first hand from discussions from those who have been doing the research the longest, this disease likely started in the early 70's. It wan't confirmed however since we didn't have the technology we have now. So this bugger has been around a long time.


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## sibi

Wow, in more reason to test your tort(s) or collection. If I'm not mistaken, the incubation period of this organism could take even years before the onset of symptoms? However, once established, it's 100% deadly. And, we really don't know ALL there is to know about contamination, do we?


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## deadheadvet

All correct assumptions on your part. It would require a lot of grant money to pursue all the variables with this. We don't know the epidemiological impact yet on this organism. We don't know if this is a wild tortoise problem or captive problem. There was a recent confiscated group of forsteni that all died of INC but it is unknown if they had it before they were confiscsted or contracted it through the process of transportation and close contact with each other. The bottom line is all died, stress, close proximity of large animals leads to bad things.


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## sibi

By now, since this may have started back in the 70's or longer, we just don't know, it may have crossed over from wild to captive or vice versa. The point is, now both wild and captive cases have been confirmed. That's why i'm having mine tested.

quote='deadheadvet' pid='782271' dateline='1386259406']
All correct assumptions on your part. It would require a lot of grant money to pursue all the variables with this. We don't know the epidemiological impact yet on this organism. We don't know if this is a wild tortoise problem or captive problem. There was a recent confiscated group of forsteni that all died of INC but it is unknown if they had it before they were confiscsted or contracted it through the process of transportation and close contact with each other. The bottom line is all died, stress, close proximity of large animals leads to bad things.
[/quote]


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## Benjamin

deadheadvet said:


> All correct assumptions on your part. It would require a lot of grant money to pursue all the variables with this. We don't know the epidemiological impact yet on this organism. We don't know if this is a wild tortoise problem or captive problem. There was a recent confiscated group of forsteni that all died of INC but it is unknown if they had it before they were confiscsted or contracted it through the process of transportation and close contact with each other. The bottom line is all died, stress, close proximity of large animals leads to bad things.


 Are you referring to the group of forstenii the TSA handled in 2007? All animals eventually perished then?


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## deadheadvet

Can't tell you that. The info was published as part of a paper dealing specifically with INC. There was a specific group of Forsteni that were part of that study that was only published early this year.
So don't know if it's the same group from '07.


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## cdmay

deadheadvet said:


> Can't tell you that. The info was published as part of a paper dealing specifically with INC. There was a specific group of Forsteni that were part of that study that was only published early this year.
> So don't know if it's the same group from '07.



Sadly, wild caught and or imported _forstenii_ are difficult to begin with. Many of the animals I knew of back in the 80's (or was it 90s?) did OK for a while but most ended up crashing.


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## Sulcata_Sandy

Is that a generally fragile species?


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## cdmay

Sulcata_Sandy said:


> Is that a generally fragile species?



Imports have been tough but captive hatched are wonderful. 
Benjamin knows a lot about them...


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## Benjamin

cdmay said:


> Sulcata_Sandy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that a generally fragile species?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Imports have been tough but captive hatched are wonderful.
> Benjamin knows a lot about them...
Click to expand...


I do not really consider forstenii to be a fragile species. They are however, very susceptible to "foreign" pathogens. Trade animals are often cross contaminated with other species before arriving to the US. I currently have 6.5 WC animals, all captive a decade or more. An additional 1.4 did not survive longterm. Two of the females did produce a few hatchlings prior to their untimely demise. With the sometimes(often)poor treatment of WC animals from the point of collection on, it is amazing that as many survive and eventually thrive as do. For every WC animal thriving in captivity many more were not so fortunate.

To quote my friend/vet support regarding some WC animals "they are already dead, they just don't know it yet".


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## sibi

I have received the package from deadheadvet (Evan) to take samples of my 4 sullies. One sully, Ms. Piggy, had passed away this morning. I took a sample of her and placed it in the refrigerator until Monday, when I expect to get the rest of the samples done. Then I'll mail all samples overnight to UF. I just need to k ow if Ms. Piggy had this disease.


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## tortadise

sibi said:


> I have received the package from deadheadvet (Evan) to take samples of my 4 sullies. One sully, Ms. Piggy, had passed away this morning. I took a sample of her and placed it in the refrigerator until Monday, when I expect to get the rest of the samples done. Then I'll mail all samples overnight to UF. I just need to k ow if Ms. Piggy had this disease.



Sorry about Mrs.Piggy. Necropsy would also be a great way to find out if she was taken by this. Evan can steer you about doing that as well. That lab is in Pacific Northwest. However it is more costly than the UFL tests. Soft tissue samples are best at findings of which was the cause.


In regards to the Forstenii. I do tend to favor sides which that of Benjamins statements. A lot of the animals coming out of SEA or Indo are kept until quotas are met and then sent out. A lot of times they are the conditions in which they are kept well before they are sent to dealers. In other events, systematic adenovirus is another issue with this species (more can be seen here on this http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-70536.html ). In relation to INC adenovirsuses are incredibly nasty too. Both INC and Adenovirus, or even irridioviruses can play on each other. Stress in any situation of carrier of one of the thousands of pathogens can eradicate an animals future.


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## Testudoresearch

This is but one of several 'emerging diseases' to consider. There are others. There are yet more that are certainly out there, that currently, we know nothing about and have no easy or reliable means to even test for. Inclusion bodies for CHV were observed many years before a PCR test was developed, for example. Many 'outbreaks' of fatal epidemic syndrome never make it into the literature because other than the fact that a lot of animals became ill and died, no causal agent could be established. In many cases the path of infection also is not clear. This simply emphasizes the critical importance of "assuming the worst, but hoping for the best" strategy when handling any animal, and the very grave consequences of running unnecessary risks. Introductions of unknown animals, of unknown origin and poor quarantine procedures are unfortunately more the rule than the exception. Maintaining a high grade quarantine and employing high strength hygiene protocols are both inconvenient and costly, but the failure to do so can be even more inconvenient and costly. If you have ever seen the conditions in some dealer and distributor premises, it is abundantly clear that extreme caution needs to be taken with any animal exposed to such sources. I am sorry to hear of the loss of Miss Piggy, incidentally. If more keepers did take the time and trouble to try to establish a cause of death in all questionable circumstances, we would know more than we do right now. Unfortunately, much evidence is lost without any meaningful investigation ever taking place.


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## Sulcata_Sandy

I checked with my supplier (Henry Schein) yesterday and they only carry the equine paste at $695 something wholesale.

If any of use have used this product, where have you obtained it and is there oral/injectable?


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## tortadise

Sulcata_Sandy said:


> I checked with my supplier (Henry Schein) yesterday and they only carry the equine paste at $695 something wholesale.
> 
> If any of use have used this product, where have you obtained it and is there oral/injectable?



Equine Paste? For what are you seeking to do and what drug is equine paste?


----------

