# Is Hibernation Absolutely Required?



## bellyboo (Dec 22, 2011)

I know I don't have to worry about this right now as my little guy is just a hatchling, but is it absolutely required that you hibernate your Hermann? This is mainly a curiosity question. For now, I plan to fully educate myself on the process and let my tort do as nature intended when the time comes.

Thanks! 






Edited to fix typos. D'oh.


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## Maggie Cummings (Dec 22, 2011)

I don't hibernate any of my animals. Too each his own. Just do what you feel like. I see too much death in hibernation so I don't want that happening to any of my animals...Do as you wish...no rules here!


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## Tim/Robin (Dec 22, 2011)

No it is not required. I have had great success breeding Dalmatian Hermanns without hibernating them at all. No fertility issues here!


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## Laura (Dec 22, 2011)

reminds me... tomorrow i go poke my deserts foot to make sure it moves....
I cant find my russian... :-/,,,,, im hoping he is deeper then i looked.. 
ugh


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## bellyboo (Dec 23, 2011)

Wow...really? I just assumed since they do it in nature it should be done in captivity. That's interesting! I definitely need to do a lot more reading into it. I knew when I bought my Hermy that they hibernate, but I don't feel completely comfortable with my knowledge on the subject. And like I said, I have time. Mine is just 15 weeks old. 

Thank you so much for the replies! I really appreciate all of the help I get here!


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## ascott (Dec 23, 2011)

I personally feel if you have a burrowing tortoise that evolution has designed that way you owe it to your tortoise to read and study and ask questions in a goal to make yourself comfortable with allowing your tortoise to do what he was designed to do.

Yes, there can be health issues and even death that occur with brumation...but that is also a daily factor with folks who keep even non burrowing tortoise and keep them in what are thought of as optimum conditions...

And if you are new to tortoise then of course you would not be comfortable with brumation...silly . But you will do fantastic setting up for successful brumation after you do become versed at it....IMHO that is.

Laura, my boys get tickled today...lol


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## bellyboo (Dec 23, 2011)

ascott said:


> I personally feel if you have a burrowing tortoise that evolution has designed that way you owe it to your tortoise to read and study and ask questions in a goal to make yourself comfortable with allowing your tortoise to do what he was designed to do.
> 
> Yes, there can be health issues and even death that occur with brumation...but that is also a daily factor with folks who keep even non burrowing tortoise and keep them in what are thought of as optimum conditions...
> 
> ...



That was sort of my thoughts, that I owe it to him to let him do what is natural. I will definitely be finding all info I possibly can before the time comes!

Thank you for your reply!


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## carnivorouszoo (Dec 23, 2011)

But the reason they do it in nature is because of the change in weather, temps, food availability and things that would kill them if awake. They go down when they can no longer survive in the current climate. Its not like they have an alarm that says ok its November, time to sleep! then sleep til another goes off in say April. It's triggered by natural conditions around them. If we can offer them the things they need I see no reason to force starved sleep on an animal. JMHO, for what it's worth. (may be new to torts but kept and bred corns without brumating had no health issues except scale rot on one who had it when I got him)


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## bellyboo (Dec 23, 2011)

carnivorouszoo said:


> But the reason they do it in nature is because of the change in weather, temps, food availability and things that would kill them if awake. They go down when they can no longer survive in the current climate. Its not like they have an alarm that says ok its November, time to sleep! then sleep til another goes off in say April. It's triggered by natural conditions around them. If we can offer them the things they need I see no reason to force starved sleep on an animal. JMHO, for what it's worth. (may be new to torts but kept and bred corns without brumating had no health issues except scale rot on one who had it when I got him)



That is a very good point! I guess I hadn't thought about fact that temps are what drives them into it, not instinct. (Like I said, I have a LOT of learning to do! )

Thank you for your reply! It's nice to be able to hear all of the differing opinions and both sides, especially from experienced people.


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## ascott (Dec 23, 2011)

_But the reason they do it in nature is because of the change in weather, temps, food availability_ and things that would kill them if awake. They go down when they can no longer survive in the current climate. _Its not like they have an alarm that says ok its November, time to sleep! then sleep til another goes off in say April._ It's _triggered by natural_ conditions around them. If we can offer them the things they need I see _no reason to force starved sleep on an animal._ JMHO, for what it's worth.

I am always curious about this type of statement (and I am not saying it is wrong NOR right) just curious. I recall when we thought that desert (or arid) species needed no water (because they consumed all water they needed from food) and much later discovered this to NOT be the case. I recall when we thought that they should not be exposed to any humid conditions or they would rot and die (this also has been now shown to not be the case).

I do believe that there is absolutely a "clock" that triggers to a burrowing tortoise that the time is coming on--called evolution (we have loads of folks, even on this forum that describe that no matter what lights they set up, no matter what temps they _force_--their torts are slowed down and only want to burrow in, right?)... lots of folks will advise them to force them to stay up---is this also not a sign of evolution---I mean by your theory here if you leave the lights as is and make no allowance for them to change then in theory the tortoise should also make no changes in their behavior---we know this not to be the case, just peruse this forum alone and you will find this to indeed be the case.

I can force a burrowing tortoise into remaining awake....I can dig em out every few days and offer food and water---then that same tortoise will go and bury himself again---how is this beneficial to the gut of the tortoise as then that food remains longer than would be in the warmer times of year---or active time if you will....

If you allow a burrowing tortoise to do what evolution has designed them to do they will slow on their activity, slow then stop their eating (even if food is available) and will eventually settle into their brumation....this, in my opinion is natural....forcing a tortoise to remain somewhat awake that is designed to do this is not healthy in the longevity of the tortoise life..remember a tortoise can thrive for a long long, did I say long time.

I believe that there are so many other reasons that this sleep occurs and that we as simple humans can not be left in charge to try to say that the "apparent" reasons that trigger brumation are the ONLY reasons....

I find that we as humans want to make sure that nothing ever happens to our tortoise.....as do I. However, I feel that we hamper our tortoise when we try to change their evolutionary behavior.

I find that we are afraid of the things we do not fully understand..hence not allow these guys to do what they are designed to do. This is why I say that if you are going to host a burrowing tortoise you owe it to that tortoise to gain knowledge in all aspects of their evolutionary design and not try to come in and tinker with what we do not know for certain....we do this too much as it is with most things....those damn thumbs sure make us believe we know better.....hmmm.

So, this is a subject that I will happily agree to disagree with you on....I do hope though that folks that elect/choose/seek out and host....a burrowing species will give that tortoise a full and complete life cycle, and a complete life cycle of a burrowing tortoise includes brumation---no matter what you nor I believe on a personal level---this is the way they were designed....and survived so in turn have thrived as a species.

I do not know about you, but no matter how many ways I try to figure out how to ride out a gazzillion years to possibly try to make an evolutionary disruption in these awesome tortoise I just can not derive a viable way....therefore, I choose to follow the pattern of proven life and thriving life and follow what they are designed to do....  After all part of thriving is surviving....surviving to continue on....

Of course I will end with , in my humble opinion that is


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## bellyboo (Dec 23, 2011)

My little guy already spends, oh, the majority of his day completely buried and asleep. It's probably safe to assume he's going to be all for taking a nice long nap in the winter time. Lol! I know one thing for sure, I absolutely will not even think of attempting it until I feel fully confident. I'm definitely leaning towards letting him do what is natural though. We'll see.

Thanks again for the replies! It is all very interesting!


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## carnivorouszoo (Dec 23, 2011)

ascott said:


> I am always curious about this type of statement (and I am not saying it is wrong NOR right) just curious.
> 
> I do believe that there is absolutely a "clock" that triggers to a burrowing tortoise that the time is coming on--called evolution (we have loads of folks, even on this forum that describe that no matter what lights they set up, no matter what temps they _force_--their torts are slowed down and only want to burrow in, right?)... lots of folks will advise them to force them to stay up---is this also not a sign of evolution---I mean by your theory here if you leave the lights as is and make no allowance for them to change then in theory the tortoise should also make no changes in their behavior---we know this not to be the case, just peruse this forum alone and you will find this to indeed be the case.
> 
> ...



And a wonderful opinion it is! Each of us are entitled to them. However, though methods of care may vary, as long as the animal is healthy and proven to be so by a knowledgeable vet both ways seem to be viable. When its proven that not brumating harms, hinders or kills I will agree with you completely.


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## ascott (Dec 23, 2011)

> I find that we are afraid of the things we do not fully understand..hence not allow these guys to do what they are designed to do. This is why I say that if you are going to host a burrowing tortoise you owe it to that tortoise to gain knowledge in all aspects of their evolutionary design and not try to come in and tinker with what we do not know for certain....we do this too much as it is with most things....those damn thumbs sure make us believe we know better.....hmmm.
> 
> Here now, I find that a tad insulting, _I try my best to care for my animals as they need._ I build the largest cages I can, give outdoor time when the weather agrees. I can not allow my russian outside in the winter here its far too cold and wet. He'd catch his death. _Then you'd be complaining I killed him via neglect._



Hold on....waaaiiiittttt  Please do not take me stating my opinion as a personal attack on you....by NO means was my opinion sharing in response to your opinion sharing a personal attack.....I always encourage folks to gather all information at their disposal and then from that hope that they tailor a set up and regimen that works for their reptile as well as them....so, please do not equate my opinion on the thread title and response to your post cause you insult as that was not at all my intent. okay?

When its proven that not brumating harms, hinders or kills _I will agree with you completely._

Me again ....I feel compelled to express to you that my opinion being stated in no fashion was a process to get you to agree with me, sightly nor completely  This is why I expressed at the very first sentence of my response post _"I am always curious about this type of statement (and I am not saying it is wrong NOR right) just curious."_

I in all honesty value the opinions of all Forum members here and value the opinion of other caregivers....I love to hear fresh thoughts of folks who consider themselves new to Tortoise---sometimes a fresh set of eyes can inspire new thought....I welcome this.....I am always striving and starving for any and all new information that I can get....I strive to find answers to questions that have none.....

So, please understand that I simply felt compelled to give another side of thinking than that of which you shared.....okay?


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## carnivorouszoo (Dec 23, 2011)

Never saw anything you said as an attack, sorry you felt I did.


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## ascott (Dec 23, 2011)

> Here now, I find that a tad insulting, I try my best to care for my animals as they need. I build the largest cages I can, give outdoor time when the weather agrees. I can not allow my russian outside in the winter here its far too cold and wet. He'd catch his death. Then you'd be complaining I killed him via neglect.



Oh good, fricken awesome then...


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## carnivorouszoo (Dec 23, 2011)

ascott said:


> > Here now, I find that a tad insulting, I try my best to care for my animals as they need. I build the largest cages I can, give outdoor time when the weather agrees. I can not allow my russian outside in the winter here its far too cold and wet. He'd catch his death. Then you'd be complaining I killed him via neglect.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh good, fricken awesome then...



LOL oh THAT! I did find it a little insulting but did not necessarily mean to myself. Sorry! I got carried away but honestly did not feel attacked. Was just pointing out that anything anyone does with a formerly wild creature can be seen as bad, then noted why russians can't do natural brumation here. Could have been worded better I see that now.


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## GBtortoises (Dec 24, 2011)

The very simple answer to your question is "NO". It is not necessary to hiberate any tortoise, regardless of species, in captivity. Having done and still doing both, keeping some tortoises active through the winter and allowing others to hibernate, I can absolutely tell you that there is no difference whatsoever between the two in terms of health, activity level and so on. The only difference that I have ever observed is breeding consistency. Those that are hibernated have a more "scheduled" breeding period. Fertility is the same between the two as well as everything else. 

Somewhere is was also mentioned about burrowing species hibernating. Hermann's are not a burrowing species.

It is not necessary to hibernate a tortoise in captivity, it is a choice to do so based on the environment you wish to provide.


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## bellyboo (Dec 24, 2011)

GBtortoises said:


> The very simple answer to your question is "NO". It is not necessary to hiberate any tortoise, regardless of species, in captivity. Having done and still doing both, keeping some tortoises active through the winter and allowing others to hibernate, I can absolutely tell you that there is no difference whatsoever between the two in terms of health, activity level and so on. The only difference that I have ever observed is breeding consistency. Those that are hibernated have a more "scheduled" breeding period. Fertility is the same between the two as well as everything else.
> 
> Somewhere is was also mentioned about burrowing species hibernating. Hermann's are not a burrowing species.
> 
> It is not necessary to hibernate a tortoise in captivity, it is a choice to do so based on the environment you wish to provide.



Thank you very much for your reply! I truly do appreciate it!


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## ascott (Dec 24, 2011)

> Hermann's are not a burrowing species.



Absolutely correct GB, they do dig into a pallet and not a full blown burrow---they can also brumate for approximately 4 months in the wild.... 

Bellyboo, as you can see there are loads of different opinions on this natural life cycle. As all other keepers have done, you will be the deciding factor as to what your tortoise will be allowed to do or not...good luck in your research on the subject.....


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## Tom (Dec 24, 2011)

When I first joined this forum a couple of years ago, I was of the opinion that if a tortoise, or any other animal, "hibernated" in the wild, then they should hibernate in captivity too. Many members on this forum, GB included, have demonstrated to me that is is not "necessary". But like Angela, I do think it is a good idea in most cases. Just my opinion on the matter.

I too have seen animals that are determined to put themselves down for the winter even when temps and light cycles are increased or maintained.

Lastly, I frequently see people say that hibernation can lead to death or illness. I have never seen this happen when it was done correctly with the proper lead in time and lead out time. The only time I have seen fatalities is when they are hibernated outside and some sort of extreme or unexpected weather comes along, or it was attempted in an unsuitable climate, like mine. I have always hibernated my animals indoors in controlled conditions and have never had a problem. I'm trying it outdoors this year on my tegu, but its with a pretty elaborate, safe, stable, underground set-up. The temp is staying very stable down there and there is no possibility of flooding or collapse. So far, so good.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Dec 24, 2011)

In the nearly 40 years that I've kept tortoises, I've never brumated/hibernated any...it's absolutely optional in captivity.

Really can't think of a compelling reason to even consider doing so...I just keep their winter quarters warm and feed them well.


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## ascott (Dec 24, 2011)

> it's absolutely optional in captivity.



Yes, it is because they do not have a choice in captivity....realistically they are forced to do what we make them do, right?

Just because we "can" tinker, does not mean we "should"....



> can't think of a compelling reason to even consider doing so.



I can think of a million + years worth of proof that is pretty compelling to me...

IMHO


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## bellyboo (Dec 24, 2011)

Thanks, everyone! I'm very glad I found this forum. It's nice to hear the different opinions and experience of others versus just sorting through info on line.


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## ascott (Dec 24, 2011)

> sorting through info on line.



Please do sort through the info on line as well as here on this forum....it is a great injustice to simply utilize the opinion of a few vs reviewing all opinions you can get your hands on....but this is not only for brumation but should be for most care that you take as your own...

IMHO


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## bellyboo (Dec 24, 2011)

ascott said:


> > sorting through info on line.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh, I most definitely sort though info. I have a list of bookmarks that goes on forever. I'm one of those people who LOVES research. Could have been a professional college student. lol! I simply meant I appreciate the various opinions and experiences. It's one thing to read through facts and whatnot, but it's another to hear real opinions and disputes on the matter.


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## ascott (Dec 24, 2011)

You rock


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## jaizei (Dec 24, 2011)

ascott said:


> > can't think of a compelling reason to even consider doing so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Many reptiles, even those that do not need to do so in their 'natural' range, are able to brumate. It has been mentioned on this very forum; Aldabras, Redfoots, Leopards and Sulcatas. So just because they can doesn't mean we should force them to. It's a tool for survival, and some tortoises just have to use it more often than others.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Dec 24, 2011)

ascott said:


> > it's absolutely optional in captivity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In nearly 40 years of sharing my life w/ these delightful creatures, not once have I had one walk away from their basking spot or feeding rock to wait by the refrigerator door so as to spend a few months in the vegetable crisper...


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Dec 25, 2011)

The only reason I'm hibernating my indoor Russian tortoises is because they refused to eat as winter was coming on. Because a prolonged fast is safer at a lower metabolic rate, I am letting them brumate through the winter in a fridge. In the future, if they do not feel the need to fast indoors, then I will not hibernate them. (Of course, if I ever keep them outdoors full-time, then they will brumate naturally.)


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## CactusVinnie (Dec 30, 2011)

Hi all,
I've posted the info below in another post. 

Increased mortality rate in non-hibernating temperate tortoise babies

It shows clearly that *for hatchlings, it is about 25% mortality if not brumated, vs 5% when brumated*. 
As the little tortoise get older and stronger, the mortality decreases- but is still present until a certain age. Some will show effects later, some will escape and manage to get strong enough to overcome those effects, apparently for good. Though, it seems that some will still persist, namely in the fertility rate, that is sometimes lower in non-hibernating tortoises.

Of course, an adult will show only longterm effects, maybe health issues, but not necessarily/always due to illness associated/derived from lack of brumation, but for sure from sheer accelereted metabolic rate that leads to accelerated ageing, all that in a relative good health due to proper husbandry (outdoor keeping, natural food). 
The deeper longterm effects- that's to be thought of, because these are animals artificially forced into perpetual summer, while they are physiologically able and designed for brumation. It's like kicking the evolution in the direction we want, ignoring ages of adaptation and modification in tortoise physiology in order to brumate.

Terry, GB and others usually advocate non-brumation- at least they see no ill-effects on their own old animals; others just take such points of view not having at least an elementary level of personal experience, just like kids imitating adults. 

Others sustain their pro-brumation approach, since they find it natural and even benefic- my case too.

Others are pro-brumation due to the above reason, but managed to prove their point, by experiment/fact; if those statistics show clearly 5 times more mortality in non-brumating vs brumating hatchlings, that should be conclusive, even if older tortoise escaping the critical stage may live and even reproduce well. 



> I see so much death in hibernation...



I wonder how much death in hibernation can be seen by a single person, and how much of this affirmation is more than just words?? 
If so much death was experienced first-hand, then that keeper should seriously reconsider his hobby, and start collecting stamps or... stuff. 
If it's about testifying about other keeper's loses, how can a person be sure that brumation was the cause, since one cannot guarantee that every keeper of a hibernating-dead tortoise had done it right, and no illness was involved? Most don't even know too much about their own tortoise's hidden problems, not to mention for other one's animals!

Personally, I wouldn't brumate an 100% indoors kept tortoise. I would be affraid, since I suppose that is debilitating for a temperate tortoise to be kept in tropical regime. Maybe the bulk of death during brumation were indoor tortoises, experiencing ZERO tonifying temperature swing, sunlight, rain, grazing weeds etc.?? If so, I would classify those deaths due to *improper husbandry*, not due to *brumation*- brumation could have been only the moment when the tortoise systems/immunity crashed.

Keep in mind that I am a beginner too, and lost zero tortoises in brumation- that may be not conclusive, but I had all type of tortoises: good shape, good weight; good shape, but underweight; *old and abused*; new imports (horsfieldi) *without even a thin growth line for that year* and full of worms (serious trauma from being on the road and pityful enclosures at least for the year I bought them) etc.- offered them either full brumation or a shortened one. All emerged fine and hungry.
This year, experiencing hatchling brumation and delayed (my fault) brumation- see Greek Boettgeri story below. After 6 weeks, all ok. 

Bottom line:
If lack of brumation affects only hatchling and youngs, it's enough demonstration that brumation should be regarded as mandatory. 
Older tortoises can take serious abuse and mistreat, and still live _(seen that in illegal wild-caught natives here, animals kept by true imbecils- real survival wonders)_, so the fact that they still live without only brumation is not by far a wonder, not even an argument- they receive all the other benefits from a good husbandry. 


*Gaddy,*

My 3 small Greek Boettgeri were planned for overwintering, receiving them in August. Since they insisted to eat less and hide more, I finally given up and, after hidrating them well for a week, I gradually placed them to cooler places, and now the beasts are in a 6*C sleep. No mood for building special enclosure, picking debile weeds from the dried grass (severe drought and no winter here ), no need for another 3 babies to care for, at the moment- and since they proved to be quite fit and stubborn (even underweight), well, I let them do their thing starting from this very winter. Slightly moist cocofiber/soil mix, sleep well, see you in Spring (in fact, every 3-4 weeks, at humidity check, but only I see them, they keep sleeping).


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## Terry Allan Hall (Dec 30, 2011)

CactusVinnie, you really should be more specific about explaining how your feelings about brumation are simply your *opinions*, _not iron-clad facts_...a lot of newbies may not yet be able to tell the difference.


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## CactusVinnie (Dec 30, 2011)

Terry, no need to explain that, it's irelevant what I think for myself. Not my opinion- I do not need opinions in that matter, and also do not offer my opinions as rules for others- only nature's opinion.
And I already explained all in my 2 most recent posts. 
I posted the link with those *iron-clad facts* you keep asking me- and only me; I hope that 1600 tortoise subjects are enough for your acceptance as a statistic- numbers= cold, objective facts you required. 

If 1600 tortoises are not enough, please you do the Froggies work on a 10x scale, to be relevant this time, and let us know the results. Just between you and me, I would be satisfied with the same 1600 tortoise subjects, but I am affraid that the results you should appear with will bring nothing new- *brumation drastically reduce hatchling and young tortoise mortality.* After all, those French guys are not by far neophytes in tortoise keeping. 

So, *just click* on the specified link and tell me if that brings some changes in your opinion. If you don't understand French, no problem: just look at the graphs and see the results. If any questions, I can explain within my limits.


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## ascott (Dec 30, 2011)

Hey Fabian, nice to see you check back in.... I too am excited about the link you shared....


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## CactusVinnie (Dec 30, 2011)

jaizei said:


> ascott said:
> 
> 
> > > can't think of a compelling reason to even consider doing so.
> ...



Jaizei, it is not the same thing!! All these tortoise will die if subjected to a temperate climate winter; the fact they are able to reduce their metabolism to cope with the seasonal changes of a TROPICAL climate it's a totally different matter. They are adapted to take the challenges only from a warm climate, from equatorial to warm subtropical. 
It is frost in Sahara; in Kenya; even in Pantanal! It barely lasts 1-2 hours. The tropical winter may bring even longer frosts, or dull coolish days, and the tortoises naturally stay hidden, sleeping. Even if they burry underground to avoid that short-lived cold, temperatures there are over 20*C, indiferent to the swings occuring above ground. 
If air temperatures in a tropical area oscillate between -2*C and 45*C over an entire year, at only 20 cm deep it will be only between, let's say, 20*...30*C. In such warm burrows, obviously *it is not about the same brumation* we talk here about! One single month at 5*C I bet that kills or make seriously sick an Aldabra, Sulcata, Redfoot or Leopard. Not to mention longer or colder, including even freeze episodes!
So, they don't belong to the same category, and a parallel cannot be made.

Just for my information: how much cold and for how long had those 4 tropical species endured, in their brumation in captivity? I have no interest in these species and no more than a shallow knowledge about them, so I am very curious what they can take in a colder climate.

Cheers!


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## Yvonne G (Dec 30, 2011)

Bellyboo (Isabelle):

You posted this thread in the "Hermanns" section, however we have gone far afield and talked about brumation (hibernation) in general for all species. Do you mind if I move it to "General Tortoise" topic?


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## ascott (Dec 30, 2011)

Great link...was able to use my translater and great and compelling information.....I have to admit that I was a bit uncomfortable with offering brumation for hatchlings and young torts...this link gives good basis for argument on that thought....not trying to start an argument, simply saying I will have to read more on the information given on the link...great stuff, thank you.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Dec 30, 2011)

CactusVinnie said:


> Terry, no need to explain that, it's irelevant what I think for myself. Not my opinion- I do not need opinions in that matter, and also do not offer my opinions as rules for others- only nature's opinion.
> And I already explained all in my 2 most recent posts.
> I posted the link with those *iron-clad facts* you keep asking me- and only me; I hope that 1600 tortoise subjects are enough for your acceptance as a statistic- numbers= cold, objective facts you required.
> 
> ...



Yes, I did read that report and have considered it for what value it has, which is why I point out the opinions in that report are not iron-clad facts, _merely opinions_, so that our newbies won't accidently kill their pets when mistaking such opinions for iron-clad facts.

This, otoh, is one of those iron-clad facts: *When one takes an animal out of the wild, it is then in captivity, and it is flat-out impossible to replicate every aspect of the wild in a captive state...and thinking one can do otherwise is simply foolish conceit.*

It's an entirely different scenario, wild-bred/born vs. captive-bred/born, and it's helpful to remember that.


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## CactusVinnie (Dec 30, 2011)

Hi, Angela!!

Just seen your reply! Couldn't let you and the overwintered tortoises alone ! Glad you find it useful- it is enlightening indeed!

Yes, that study made me decide no compromise in offering equal treatment to my hatchlings. In fact, they went underground even earlier then adults- due to their small bodymass, they should be ready and deep enough when serious cold arrives. I admit that once, when the Ibera eggs were just laid and I was planning the future hatchling treatment, it crossed my mind to shorten their hibernation to 3 months. 
I thought that not offering them the multiple options found in the wild should be compensate with a shortened brumation or something else... Observing them almost daily, my fears dissapeared- they knew better, and I congratulate myself for not bringing them indoors, not even for a day. Just rain protection over their enclosure, when frosts arrived. 

Read again the article, and it confirmed that my natural approach is not by far risky/dangerous- in fact, one trying to make their life easier, he could easy do a great amount of harm to their health, even killing them. Dangerous is the unnatural, and the fact that the younger the tortoises, the more loses when skipping/shortening brumation rang a bell to me- in fact, nothing new under the sun.

I don't master English that well to explain it, but it is about the primary needs of a creature- when it's small, there is no compromise in the conditions they need, or else they usually suffer/die. The wide range of various parameters is easier to cope with when larger and older. Even if these initial conditions are harsh in our standards, it is simply natural for them, and changing those conditions too much ("softening" them) means affecting some physiological mechanisms; at an young age, it may be too much for them to compensate, since they are not yet that able to meet challenges they are not adapted/projected for. At hatchling level, they have enough energy to handle the "usual", no matter how tough seems to us, but no extra energy to handle the "unusual", no matter how mild we find it. There are conversions and energy redirectionings needed to survive when a temperate hatchling is subjected to continuous summer conditions, they should "burn" when their genes dictate to "rest", and that results in exhaustion and hormonal imballance. 

I bet that some will say "well, ok, it's just survival of the fittest"- I would reply: let's see who is the fittest after a full brumation, since we are talking here about temperate tortoises, not tropicals. If they say "natural selection", well, they will surely select the ones more inclined to take a tropical climate, not the ones adapted/requiring a good, ole, long brumation. 
What next? The cold-hardiest of Sulcatas ?? The cold-tender Russian? The wingless bat? The winged mouse?

I'd say let all of these creatures like they are designed to be: warm climate Sulcata, frost-tolerant Russians, bats with wings and wingless mice... enough perversion and unnatural in the human world, no need to extend it even more than we already did it on the animals...


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## ascott (Dec 30, 2011)

> The wide range of various parameters is easier to cope with when larger and older. Even if these initial conditions are harsh in our standards, it is simply natural for them, and changing those conditions too much ("softening" them) means affecting some physiological mechanisms



Your English is grand. This I believe as well. I know that folks will say that the ONLY reason that certain species of tortoise brumate is due to the weather onset and lack of food, while this is of course part of what I believe to be true, there are so many other things that occur in nature that I believe it is not correct to replicate only the parts of the life cycle that make us humans feel good about doing...a life cycle is just that, in its complete form. Tortoise that brumate have a life cycle and that includes brumating...and to simply pull that evolutionary piece out of the pie will leave a void---this void will catch up somehow...

I would not advise someone who is new to tortoise care to claim to know everything, to act as though they know everything...but to rather strive to learn everything they can. Brumation is a viable and necessary cycle of certain tortoise species and to deny it, IMHO, is not correct. I have said it before, we owe it to our tortoise to know all aspects of their life and to try to replicate each the best that we can....and to not fear the learning of each of these cycles...


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## Yvonne G (Dec 30, 2011)

I didn't read the article, but getting the gist of what you and Angela are talking about reminds me that sometimes tortoises that hatch in the ground (personal experience with box turtles here , not tortoises) will over-winter in the nest and not come up until the ground warms up in the spring. This is quite natural and normal. 

I have a hard time keeping baby tortoises alive the first year, and have always sent them up to my sister to head start for me. I wonder if allowing them to brumate might make them hardier.


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## ascott (Dec 30, 2011)

Yvonne, I would bet they would. You have great skill and intuition when it comes to these shelled beauties...IMHO.

I kinda equate this thinking with that of a butterfly, if a butterfly never has to struggle to achieve the first flaps of the wings they then never learn to fly.....this has been studied in great depth.

I do believe that the old phrase "survival of the fittest" applies for a variety of reasons..... there is a lot that happens when a species strives to survive...survival equals life and life equals living...living in turn allows a species to thrive....we humans can not change evolution, when we think we can is when things go horribly wrong...evolution will happen no matter how hard we fight it.....

My human nature will make me grasp something tightly and firmly and not want anything bad to ever happen to it...but the flip side of us domesticated humans is the wild...the purest form of life...the simplest, the most magnificent, the most beautiful, untainted form of life. This is when I remember to loosen the grip and step back and observe and offer aid in the smallest way possible as not to disrupt it, to not humanize it...but rather let it be.


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## CactusVinnie (Dec 30, 2011)

Terry, these *are* iron-clad facts!! Opinion is something subjective or objective, but supporting facts make correct opinions= scientific truth. Statistics. Nothing subjective. Not "opinion".

If these are not facts, I wonder what do you will admit as facts? Really!!




> When one takes an animal out of the wild, it is then in captivity, and it is flat-out impossible to replicate every aspect of the wild in a captive state...and thinking one can do otherwise is simply foolish conceit.
> 
> It's an entirely different scenario, wild-bred/born vs. captive-bred/born, and it's helpful to remember that.
> 
> Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/newreply.php?tid=38255#ixzz1i3MAnkEe




If you call this *speculation of yours "iron-clade fact"*, and *French study "just opinion"*... I have no reply. Just see the subjectivity in your quote!
Yes, impossible to replicate every aspect- so what should we do? 

Instead of trying to *replicate as much as we can* (wich can be often quite satisfactory), you say it is *wiser* (vs. "foolish conceit") *giving it up from the start*, and better *totally mess-up the rules of nature*, just because *we cannot anyway replicate 100% the wild*?

No offence, but it makes NO sense. 

I know that I cannot offer the... 100 weeds they eat in the wild- instead, only 20, and another 20 with similar nutritional qualities. Quite good!
I know that my enclosures are not acres of bushes, forests and prairies, slopes and flats- but I do provide slopes, rocks, shade and sun. Quite good!
I know that my tortoises mate with another partner that they may find in the wild- but I found them pairs, and had perfect babies. Good enough!
Per total, I'd say satisfactory.

Now, if you ask me to randomly eat some of them just to please you in mimicking the natural predation, Terry, I'd say I intent to break this rule of nature. Also, I will not take them out in warm days in winter, as they rarely happen to do in the wild. Instead they will sleep at a slow changing temperature all winter: from 9*C in November... 3 in February... 9*C in April-> out. No mimicking burrow freeze, no heatwave. 
But *brumation*, since I can quite succesfully offer to them, in the way I can offer to them, is here to stay on their schedule.

As I said before: instead of keep replying against brumation, thing that consumes time and forum space, why you guys don't try to just recommend *overwintering in special cases*, and describing *the safe way to prepare for and hibernate a temperate tortoise*?? And maybe posting it as a sticky, and in further interventions, just explaining in detail the steps for all those members that are still not sure about how to do that? It would be much, much more constructive for the hobby, and, of course, for the better maintenance of tortoises. 
I really doubt that a beginner can meet the needs of a hatchling during the unnatural overwintering, but he can easy learn the preparing steps, succesfuly brumate the tortoise and having *5 times more chances of having the same tortoise alive* and strong the next year. Because the FACTS just showed there are *5 times more juvenile mortality in overwintered tortoises.*

Angela,

Well said, we cannot put that _"weather onset and lack of food"_ piece out of the pie ! It IS part of the pie! It is funny how (far as I read) EJ put it here first time, some time ago, and some just take it and run further with it, not observing the *part of the pie* analogy.
Thanks for the English compliment !


Yvonne,

Can you please share your observation in tortoise hatchling mortality? These are real stuff; even if sad experiences, we can learn as well from loses as from successes. And it seems to complete the picture. 
An American tortoise husbandry revolution? I hate revolutions, but that one deserves support !


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## Yvonne G (Dec 30, 2011)

Its really nothing I haven't already said here on the forum at one time or another.

I take in baby tortoises that are surrendered to the Rescue. Most of them are Gopherus agassizii, and I get them in September, October right after they've hatched out. Way back when I first started getting them, I would set them up in an indoor-type setting, but outside on the car port. Back then I didn't use UVB lights, but on sunny days I would prop open the lid and sun would shine in. I always tried to adopt them out as soon as I could find good people to take them, but sometimes I was left with some until spring. Not all, but some just slowly got weaker and softer and eventually died, no matter what I would do to save them. After a couple years of this, I realized I'm not good with babies, and thereafter I would send them up to my sister in Oregon to head start for their first year. Then she would bring them back and I'd adopt them out. She would occasionally lose one, but not nearly as many as I lost.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Dec 30, 2011)

CactusVinnie said:


> Terry, these *are* iron-clad facts!! Opinion is something subjective or objective, but supporting facts make correct opinions= scientific truth. Statistics. Nothing subjective. Not "opinion".
> 
> If these are not facts, I wonder what do you will admit as facts? Really!!
> 
> ...



Vinnie, we all understand that you think these_ opinions _are facts. And you're certainly entitled to your _opinion_ on what the facts may be.

All I have is almost 40 years of experience in never losing a single tortoise, from hatchling to elderly, due to allowing my pets to stay awake, rather than brumate them. And I've known friends who mistakenly believed that brumating was absolutely required, and then lost their beloved pets from the mistake (one lost all 7 of her torts and took it pretty hard because a member of our Herpetological Society kept pushing the "Brumation is the only way" mindset until she gave in. A couple of her pets she had had almost 30 years).

Again, my point was to caution you from pushing your opinion, _or that of others_, on any aspect of tortoise keeping, as the only facts to consider.

Try starting your posts as "In my opinion"...it's much more honest.


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## ascott (Dec 30, 2011)

> Way back when I first started getting them, I would set them up in an indoor-type setting, but outside on the car port



I wonder Yvonne? If when the folks found them, then removed them, if that messed up the little one in such a way that the stress caused them to become weak...then of course they are no longer on a level playing field...so they would then need to have been treated as an ailing tortoise vs a healthy hatchling? If so, then unbeknownst to you when you send the little ones with your sister she is housing them as one would if you had an ailing hatchling....so then the outcome would of course be better than letting an ailing hatchling brumate...you know what I mean? You Yvonne offer the best guidelines on treating a tortoise that is under the weather....increased temps, soaking, quiet.... 

Also, if they were then already stressed and potentially ailing and then put out in the elements, so to speak, they would not be in the best situation to get well...(and I mean this as a total objective opinion based on the information here and not in ANY ANY ANY way knocking anything that was done....)



> Back then I didn't use UVB lights, but on sunny days I would prop open the lid and sun would shine in.



You and I ABSOLUTELY agree with the concept that the sun is an almighty healer of alot of ailments....and can help considerably if dealing with a less than healthy, stressed tortoise, let alone an ailing hatchling...you know?

Just my take Yvonne 





"In MY opinion" brumation is a vital part of certain tortoise species life. In my opinion it is a great disservice to these same tortoise to not learn the best method in with which to offer this event to the tortoise. In my opinion it is our duty who house and care for these tortoise to learn and set up the most successful method for these tortoise to continue their evolutionary design with brumation. As well as remove our own human emotions from the event...such as cold, starving, alone, sad, etc.

In my opinion it is a poor decision to suddenly obtain one of these tortoise who have never brumated and are 30 plus years old and suddenly place them into a brumation environment without the proper preparation.

In my opinion it is a poor decision for a person who has never cared for these species to read somewhere that brumation is the way AND then never research what is necessary to set up the most successful set up for brumation.

I find it curious that a person that has numerous years of tortoise care experience saying that the only reason that they have never lost a tortoise was because they have never offered brumation is a bit of a unsubstantiated statement, how would one know if they have never performed this event? So, seems to me that type of statement would be strictly one sided? Perhaps? 

I believe that this is a subject that will always have two sides. In my opinion, both sides should be given equal honest set up for folks to take the real information from to better decide what they will do.


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## CactusVinnie (Dec 30, 2011)

Terry, 
That word-play about the opinion that I am entitled to, honnestity etc. is really not useful or answering no question. Please, let's leave that area, it goes into too much useless pseudo-psychological stuff. I just indicated facts, numbers, and Yvonne's observations in hatchling mortality did nothing but confirmed. 

The tragic loss of these 7 tortoises- do you agree that you equally should start your opinion on the cause of death with "in my opinion", when you put the tortoise deaths to a very vague notion as "mistake to brumate"? Because it's so unclear, that it deserves at least the same caution you recommend to me when making an affirmation!

If during 30 years of keeping tortoises, that owner suddenly lost *all of them*, doesn't that ring a bell? That maybe one (less than one... impossible)... make it 2... were unable to brumate (this is not wild, but totally insane speculation, but let it be), but all 7 died from that? I would seriously doubt- no, I would have the certitude that this "brumation" was done without understanding and following those simple preparing steps. Especially when the owner had no idea how to do it- never doing that before! 

And *"mistakes in brumation"* is one credible thing, while the *"mistake to brumate"* is simply nonsense- to put it more simple, if brumation itself was the cause, then temperate area would have been depleted by now of all its tortoises, since brumation had thousand of years to get them all killed.

Can you then say for sure what killed the lady's tortoises? Did you bothered to investigate, at least? What species? Hermanni, by case? For me, such a total wipeout during brumation sounds more like a brutal dehydration case, more than other causes. 
What was the initial state of tortoises? No regular checking, no weighing? Fridge hibernation? Outbuilding? Location? Death by freeze? I rather doubt that it was outdoors... Any other relevant information?
If you do have the details about that horrible experience, it would be useful to share them here, because the mistakes we can find together can be pointed out as serious potential killers.

Also, do you kept records of your hatchling evolution? Did you kept them long enough, all of them? Have you ever heared about those you gave away? About all of them? 
After 40 years of tortoise keeping and breeding, I really doubt that you either kept all the babies long enough, either keeping in touch with the buyers to be able to give me a fact-supported answer. Too much babies, and I speculate: in your signature there are only the old four tortoises, the breeding nucleus. 1.3.0 boettgeri- so that you usually gave the babies away quite soon. How can you be sure of their evolution after that? 
Or they are maybe a breed that never experience mortality until 70 years of age ? 
Please understand my doubts... hard to believe that you had zero hatchling losses in 40 years, while others (Frenchies) report up to 25%!! Ok, semi-immortal breed- not 25%, but... ZERO?? And you should have had lots of babies all these years! Are they French guys really dumb or just liars, only for that brumation-idea sake? 

And, as Angela noticed- me too, but not my style to abruptly ask people "and what do you know about this stuff?"- you never brumated your tortoises!! As I said, I really admire your achievements- keeping healthy tortoises that breed regularly and having... let's say, *good survival rate*  in hatchlings (see my doubts on zero losses...), all that without brumating ONCE! How can you debate on a thing you never tried? 


Short story:
I killed 15 years ago 3 adult tortoises... and after that, I said I will never adopt one again. It started with a large female (1 winter- brumating), then a male (both-2 winter brumating), then receiving another pair just before winter no. 3. Inspected briefly the 2 newcomers- one seemed a lilttle weak- and put both of them in brumation, near the other 2.
Spring came, but it seems that the bath I offered to all of them was the moment of the (possible?) cross-infection. In less than 2 weeks, both the newcomers and the first male died... and the old lady, the first tortoise, was totally unaffected. Lucky me... the same year, manage to lose her- she escaped for good. 
It sems that the newcomers were sick, and judging after the swift killing, it was the feared Chelonian Herpes Virus. Old lady naturally immune. It was a living tank.

Last year someone brought me a beautiful female tortoise found in great trouble- far from habitat, in a... pond, floating, and some Gypsy kids trying to make her sink, with helping sticks... After painful remembering of my lost tortoises, I said her "ok, but you will leave to Dobrogea with the first occasion"... then taking care of her, I saw the light : that's my revenge!! I will collect poor captives, breed them and release their babies back to Dobrogea, to pay my duty and respects to the lost ones! And that was the beginning of a beautiful friendship ! 

15 years ago, nobody knew a bit on tortoises here. No tradition in keeping them. No internet- it was a rarity. No literature available... I just read somewhere that they need a bath after winter sleep. No humidity control during brumation (luckily, my balcony was humid enough, otherwise I would have them killed much earlier, and all of them...), no other info. They stayed in a yard until cold weather came, then taking them home, wrapping in textiles, put in cardboard boxes, in a wooden closet in N-facing balcony... and that was all. Feeding? I was inspired to offer them only cabbage and tomatoes from the "bad" list; no fruits or animal items, it was obvious these are aberrations; usually plantain, dandelion and cichory- quite an inspiration.

What I wanted to say with all these above: 15 years ago, I was a genuine ignorant tortoise keeper, and I brumated them 3, 2 and 1 winter before the tragedy. If not that pathogen that killed 3 of 4 tortoises, my poor skills and knowledge hadn't get them killed, either during brumation or not. 

*If an ignorant like I was that time managed to brumate successfuly 3 and 2 years, not counting the 2 possible Trojan Horses, how on Earth a 30 years experienced keeper lost all her 7 tortoises at a time?? *
Brumation itself? Certainly not! 
Incorrect understanding of brumation? More likely! 

Cheers!


P.S.: look what you have done, Terry ! You scared Angela and she used that poor syntagm "in my opinion" in an obsessive, almost guilty manner! Let's say that, if all things should start with that creepy, politically correctness- related group of words, can we just skip it, and let it to be self-understood from the beginning?


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## Terry Allan Hall (Dec 30, 2011)

ascott said:


> "In MY opinion" brumation is a vital part of certain tortoise species life. In my opinion it is a great disservice to these same tortoise to not learn the best method in with which to offer this event to the tortoise. In my opinion it is our duty who house and care for these tortoise to learn and set up the most successful method for these tortoise to continue their evolutionary design with brumation. As well as remove our own human emotions from the event...such as cold, starving, alone, sad, etc.
> 
> In my opinion it is a poor decision to suddenly obtain one of these tortoise who have never brumated and are 30 plus years old and suddenly place them into a brumation environment without the proper preparation.
> 
> ...



A fair question...Not brumating tortoises in captivity didn't start with me...tortoise-keepers have "over wintered" European tortoises, as far as I've been able to find, since at least 1843, but possibly much longer. 

A monk, Father David Knoessler, in (I think) Austria, wrote of his pet tortoise (not positive as to the species, but presume either hermannii or graeca) that he kept in his study during the cold part of the year and it shared his life for something like 35 years. 

Just one example.

Absolute agreement that "this is a subject that will always have two sides. In my opinion, both sides should be given equal honest set up _*for folks to take the real information from to better decide what they will do*_"


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## carnivorouszoo (Dec 30, 2011)

I love having all this information shared on both sides of this, but until I live where outdoor hibernation is possible so that its natural I won't do brumation/hibernation. Just too risky to me. Its too wet during the cold season here. So far my little Russian shows no signs of slowing down. He's an active little piglet XD


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## Terry Allan Hall (Dec 30, 2011)

CactusVinnie said:


> Terry,
> That word-play about the opinion that I am entitled to, honnestity etc. is really not useful or answering no question. Please, let's leave that area, it goes into too much useless pseudo-psychological stuff. I just indicated facts, numbers, and Yvonne's observations in hatchling mortality did nothing but confirmed.
> 
> The tragic loss of these 7 tortoises- do you agree that you equally should start your opinion on the cause of death with "in my opinion", when you put the tortoise deaths to a very vague notion as "mistake to brumate"? Because it's so unclear, that it deserves at least the same caution you recommend to me when making an affirmation!
> ...



I'm guessing that you're quite a bit younger, so I'll just point out that, as you get older, it hurts less when the entire world doesn't agree with your opinion and chooses to think for themselves and/or disagree...


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## CactusVinnie (Dec 30, 2011)

CZoo,

Yes, w- MO is far too wet, but you have options in order to brumate Talison. The simplest one: the fridge. Especially with a single tortoise. 
My RT were too active piglets last year, at this time- I prolonged their active period in order to offer them a short brumation, that was planned to end right around natural awakening date. If forced with enough heat and light, tortoises stay active. For Horsfieldi, it was enough 13*-18*C ambient temperature with good basking area.


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## ascott (Dec 30, 2011)

> P.S.: look what you have done, Terry! You scared Angela and she used that poor syntagm "in my opinion" in an obsessive, almost guilty manner


! 

LOL.. I elected to use the term completely out of respect ..there are times when a message can be met with a much more open mind and sometimes we can be more receptive when a simple request is granted. All good here


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## CactusVinnie (Dec 30, 2011)

> I'm guessing that you're quite a bit younger, so I'll just point out that, as you get older, it hurts less when the entire world doesn't agree with your opinion and chooses to think for themselves and/or disagree...
> 
> Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Is-Hibernation-Absolutely-Required?page=4#ixzz1i4PelwJD



Well, Terry, it seems that one can talk to you for quite a while, and harvest nothing than the usual cloud of north Texas dust... 
As for the pain, I will try analgesics, but the cause of my pain is other than the one you guess... keep guessing. And after 38 years of pain, I got used to. It seems that the ole problem here is as well the same ole problem there, on the other side of the pond...

"Entire world doesn't agree"? ... It seems that you fight the bad fight, since you are running out even of repetitive postings. 

Terry, do you realise that the only contribution brought by you, every time I met you, was a limited mindset and cheap irony? Short, pretended ironic sentences instead of arguments and answers don't make you look cool, manly, not to mention full of knowledge.

Can you skip that false Guru attitude and learn something: never talk before knowing the subject? And next time, can you bring real answers to real questions? You sound biased towards something, that I don't get yet. And I feel a strange lack of interest in finding the answer to your problem.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Dec 30, 2011)

CactusVinnie said:


> > I'm guessing that you're quite a bit younger, so I'll just point out that, as you get older, it hurts less when the entire world doesn't agree with your opinion and chooses to think for themselves and/or disagree...
> >
> > Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Is-Hibernation-Absolutely-Required?page=4#ixzz1i4PelwJD
> 
> ...



Turn the ol' ego down a few notches, son.


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## jaizei (Dec 30, 2011)

CactusVinnie said:


> jaizei said:
> 
> 
> > ascott said:
> ...



We aren't talking about 'natural' brumation but in captivity. So it is exactly the same. Stop feeding, cool down, dark box/room/fridge. The point was that these 'tropical species' can survive being brumated just like 'temperate species.' That means that the ability to brumate isn't special, or a good argument for forcing them to.

The argument that just because something happens in nature we should replicate it in captivity is kinda ridiculous. Especially concerning adaptions as a means of survival. There are plenty of lizards that have developed 'breakaway tails' to escape predators. They wouldn't have developed such an ability if they weren't supposed to use it, right? Should we periodically yank on their tails to simulate a natural occurrence? I can think of a million + years worth of proof.


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## ascott (Dec 30, 2011)

> The argument that just because something happens in nature we should replicate it in captivity is kinda ridiculous.



I would so like to hear exactly what prompts you to make this statement...really, I would. Will you please elaborate on this statement, as I want to make certain that I do not misunderstand?


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## Tim/Robin (Dec 30, 2011)

ascott said:


> "In MY opinion" brumation is a vital part of certain tortoise species life. In my opinion it is a great disservice to these same tortoise



Please expand on this more....... 

I just can't see the "vital" part when many who do not "brumate/hibernate" have had and continue to have great success. 

Equally, I can't see the "great disservice" part. Please enlighten us......


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## ascott (Dec 30, 2011)

> Please expand on this more.......
> 
> I just can't see the "vital" part when many who do not "brumate/hibernate" have had and continue to have great success.
> 
> Equally, I can't see the "great disservice" part. Please enlighten us......



_brumation is a vital part of certain tortoise species life._

Certain species of tortoise life cycle have evolved to include brumation ..some state that the only reason that they do this is strictly due to weather and reduction in food, I on the other hand believe that there is more to it than that.... there are too many things that happen during brumation ...we should not alter their life cycle---....they are a creature that has endured the test of time, just as they are designed...and who are we to decide that they just don't need to do this...I certainly am not...nor do I find anyone else qualified to make this evolutionary decision. Hence a great disservice is done. As I said, this is what I believe.

Anything else?


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## Tim/Robin (Dec 30, 2011)

ascott said:


> Certain species of tortoise life cycle have evolved to include brumation ..some state that the only reason that they do this is strictly due to weather and reduction in food, I on the other hand believe that there is more to it than that.... there are too many things that happen during brumation ...we should not alter their life cycle---....they are a creature that has endured the test of time, just as they are designed...and who are we to decide that they just don't need to do this...I certainly am not...nor do I find anyone else qualified to make this evolutionary decision. Hence a great disservice is done. As I said, this is what I believe.
> 
> Anything else?



Yes, please go in to detail what all you believe happens during brumation........... 

Is it more involved than a metabolic slowdown due to temperature? Is it not merely their way of surviving unfavorable conditions?

MODS: Feel free to prune this to its own topic if you feel it is getting off the topic of the OP's simple question of if hibernation is absolutely required.


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## ascott (Dec 30, 2011)

Absolutely I will elaborate on my belief:

I believe that aside from the physical part of brumation...there is this huge thing called evolution;

any change across successive generations in the heritable characteristics of biological populations.

This is the one thing that you nor I can nor should muck with, what makes anyone think that for the short time that we have housed tortoise that we are going to change their instincts simply because we have forced domestication on them.....that way of thinking to me again shows how over inflated human kinds ego has become.....again, my beliefs shared here.

Anything further? 



> MODS: Feel free to prune this to its own topic if you feel it is getting off the topic of the OP's simple question of if hibernation is absolutely required.



Now, I have a question for you? What are your motives for questioning me? I know you have them. I have been clear and have continued to entertain your posts, now, how about you play like grown folks do and say what your motives are.


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## CactusVinnie (Dec 31, 2011)

> Turn the ol' ego down a few notches, son. Big Grin
> 
> Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Is-Hibernation-Absolutely-Required?page=4#ixzz1i69tag2r



Can't do that, Sir!! I am waiting for your example on how to to that, Sir! 




> We aren't talking about 'natural' brumation but in captivity. So it is exactly the same. Stop feeding, cool down, dark box/room/fridge. The point was that these 'tropical species' can survive being brumated just like 'temperate species.' That means that the ability to brumate isn't special, or a good argument for forcing them to.
> 
> Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/newreply.php?tid=38255#ixzz1i6AjCUoC



Jaizei,

Let's have a constructive discussion, can we? It could be interesting and useful if ego's, old ideas and lack of serious replies will not compromise it.
Brumation is almost the same in captivity as in the wild- and if the word "almost" will be another one that you will use to demolish my argumentation, this time please explain the difference with the reply. If it is so important to be mentioned, you should show me some things I was maybe missed. Although quite improbable, but I am open to your explanations.

As for the lizard tail part: although it's an evolutionary trait too and your funny comparison somewhat works as good humour, it is not the effective to compare a predator-escaping strategy with brumation, that has proved to have a obvious importance for hatchling and juveniles, even not much on adults- except the normal accelerated ageing. Brumation clearly implies serious endocrine processes, and the young tortoise metabolism is seriously disturbed without it.

\Please answer my previous question: the 4 tropicals mentioned, at what temperature and for how long can be brumated? I did may part to show you the differences between the rare cold episodes in the tropics and temperate brumation. If they were so cold-hardy, BTW, why are they limited to the intertropical area ? 

And even if (and we both know that is pure fiction) those 4 tropicals would be able to endure the same cold as temperates _("The point was that these 'tropical species' can survive being brumated just like 'temperate species.'")_, at least their hatchling mortality would be not by far the same, their systems being totally adapted for year-round summer. 
But again, we both know it's fiction- don't tell me (or tell that with serious back-up) that those 4 can be brumated in a fridge, at 5*C, at least for 3 months. Please consider that reports like:
_"my sulcata gets even in the snow and tries to eat some, before coming back to her 28*C enclosure", "it was frost in Tanzania once and a Leopard had some on its carapace", or "my Redfoots just brumate for an entire month when temps are about 15*C"_ and so on...
do not account a bit. 




> MODS: Feel free to prune this to its own topic if you feel it is getting off the topic of the OP's simple question of if hibernation is absolutely required.
> 
> Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/newreply.php?tid=38255#ixzz1i6P3tCl0



Wow, Tim/Robin!! Hold on your tortoises!! Pruning?? No s...nake? 
Please consider and respect the time and interest of those who really brought something to that discussion, things that none of guys in your "team" ever brought. So, please, indicate for pruning only your sterile "against"-type of replies, because they are quite empty of useful information or contra-arguments to our explanations.


Pasting the "extra" considered part to the 

Continuation of hibernation discussion

would be a much better suggestion. 

Of course, put before all of these the almighty IMHO.


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## EricIvins (Dec 31, 2011)

I think this thread just goes to show that the majority of keepers really don't know squat about the Brumation process........It's unfortunate that people with a few Tortoises and very little real world experience can throw their opinions around like some sort of gospel because it's the "right thing to do" or because its "natural".........But I digress.......

FACT - ( What we do know ) - Some Tortoises shut down naturally, whether CBB or wild caught..........WE CAN'T STOP THIS.......

FACT - Some Tortoises DON'T shut down naturally IN CAPTIVITY - Do they NEED to? NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

FACT - These Tortoises that don't shut down naturally function just fine - No different than a Tortoise that will naturally go down when the time is right........


Please, if anyone can provide quantitative Data that contradicts the facts above, feel free to post away........Not useless opinion, but hard Data........


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## CactusVinnie (Dec 31, 2011)

Eric, 

I got your message, since only Angela and me are on the "other" side, and me being more suited to be addressed to... even indirectly. Altough that kind of replies are not adding anything new, I will repy you, as I feel I was pointed to above.

My experience, altough little, proved to be most effective than that so-called "longtime experience" of people that really don't know "squat" on hibernation. Unfortunately, as you say, it seems that despite the rank obtained through many messages- or just pure ignorant beginners- lack of experience in brumation is no problem for many people to interfere and just throw "useless opinions" on a subject they didn't even know about. Although not at all complicated, they just have no experience in it. 

So, I don't need decades of experience to get an elementar understanding of tortoises. They live a healthy life, breed resulting healthy babies, go underground spontaneously- I just digg them up and place in controlled hibernacula. No accelerated growth, but exactly as in nature.
I wouldn't give my little, but consistent knowledge and experience on longtime, but sterile tortoise keeping. After all, I am one of the few here that really brumate his tortoises, and ironically, some of the few truly entitled to a pertinent opinion on the subject, despite my admitted little experience- even if some like that or not, it's fact. 

Your so-called facts are nothing but OBSERVATIONS. Little facts, it's true. But far from being considered the answer, since they invariable contain the word "some". 
"FACT no. 2" is in... fact ... a *conclusion*, and it's as subjective as it could be.

I already admitted, from finding how well are overwintered tortoises and their reasonable reproductive output, that for adults or older juveniles overwintering is not anymore a potential killer- yep, that's FACT. Although at least GB, from the ones posting here, noticed a real difference in the mood to breed and fertility rates. And many other breeders that I stumbled upon during my forums-digging noticed the same thing.
But I showed you as well that for hatchlings and small juveniles that overwintering is more than a potential killer- FACT too.

So, I would consider the case almost closed, but biased pro-brumation, since *at least for a while (first critical years), it was proved that lack of it has a negative effect on tortoises*. 

If it is required to draw a line that sums all observations and a single *"yes or no"* type of answer is needed to the question *"is brumation necessary?"*:

*Overwintering*
Hatchling+very young- significant mortality demonstrated
Adults+older young- insignificant or absent mortality
Reproductive mood and fertility- sometimes reduced, but not absent

*Brumation (not accounting flagrant mistakes! Brumation itself only!)*
Hatchlings+very young- reduced mortality demonstrated
Adults+older young- insignificant or absent mortality
Reproductive mood and fertility- never affected, optimum level

Simple math/common sense/logic indicates, naturally, *YES*.

I supopose that you didn't read those quantitative data you asked- check the link I posted in some messages above.

Someone told me that US keepers, not living in tortoise country, take great care and limiting risks, things that guys like me ignore, since I live in tortoise country and if lost one, I can easily "rescue" another one directly from habitat... while they haven't that "luxury", and only way to have a tortoise is to offer the best to the ones they have.

My delayed reply is: the whole tortoise population of Romania was numerically exceeded many times by the US "careful" keepers-fed import. If it's to consider tortoise keepers proportionally in US population/RO population, even this way, you still lead. CB's? just a nice story... the crushing bulk are WC's. That's pretty all I wanted to say...

... Including brumation. 
It is an acceptance matter from now on, since all the logical reasons were used in explaining. No resonance? No problem, we'll survive. Just hoping that the thousands tortoises leaving Central Asia "ranching" compounds, Slovenian "farms" and Maghreb countries "poacher bazaars" will keep up with the US demand and with the "care" US keepers are advised to offer them... At least my s....y country is not an engoulfing "black hole" for "legal" tortoises that in fact belong to their countries wilderness...


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## Tim/Robin (Dec 31, 2011)

CactusVinnie said:


> Wow, Tim/Robin!! Hold on your tortoises!! Pruning?? No s...nake?
> Please consider and respect the time and interest of those who really brought something to that discussion, things that none of guys in your "team" ever brought. So, please, indicate for pruning only your sterile "against"-type of replies, because they are quite empty of useful information or contra-arguments to our explanations.



Fabian, you clearly misunderstood my remark. Please slow down and reread it!!!! I said "*prune to its own topic*". Let me simplify that for you, since this discussion is not related directly to the original question posted, Mods feel free to move it to a topic of its own. Is that easier to understand? I in no way meant to cut out any of the discussion or content. 

I do not belong to any team here and have no idea why you would say that. I simply asked for elaboration of certain views Angela had posted. 

Angela: my motive is nothing more than to learn. I can't wrap my mind around such strict comments as "disservice" and "vital". The term "disservice" implies that those of us that chose not to "brumate" certain tortoises are not doing all we can to provide well for them. You cannot take the term "disservice" as anything but negative!

For those who care to know, I allow my tortoises to do as they choose. Many know we keep a rather rare species native to Madagascar among various other species. Our Pyxis tortoises slow way down in the winter time. They become very inactive and eat very little if anything. Do we change anything in our husbandry to move them to this, NO. Do we change anything as a result of their choosing to slow down, YES. They still have the same light and heat, albeit the natural length of daylight is significantly shortened in the winter months. They are only offered food once or twice a week. Some will eat, some won't. So, no one can say we belong to any "team". We allow our tortoises to do as they choose. As for our Mediterranean species, they have a cool area and a warm area in their enclosures. Some choose to move to the heat daily, some do not. None have chosen to stay in the cool area for weeks at a time.

My belief is brumation is what tortoises do to survive their environment. They do it because suboptimal or unfavorable conditions exist. Simply put, they have to or they will die! In captivity, we can provide optimal or favorable conditions for them so they do not have the "need" to "brumate" for survival. I have not read or experienced anything to show that "brumation" is anything more than a metabolic slowdown that allows them to survive. Is it a part of evolution, YES. They have evolved to survive unfavorable conditions. Just as many birds have evolved specific beaks to allow for survival in different environments. Evolution is a process of change over generations to ensure survival. 

PS. Can anyone find the article in the Reptilmag in English? I would like to read it. I am all too familiar with statistics and research. You cannot take one research article as gospel. Statistics can ALWAYS be skewed to show the desired outcome. One always has to critique the research. Who funded the project? What was the sample size? What are the variable involved? Where the hibernated and non-hibernated specimens subjected to other differences? Could the research be duplicated with similar results? ETC..................


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## ascott (Dec 31, 2011)

> Angela: my motive is nothing more than to learn. I can't wrap my mind around such strict comments as "disservice" and "vital". The term "disservice" implies that those of us that chose not to "brumate" certain tortoises are not doing all we can to provide well for them. You cannot take the term "disservice" as anything but negative!



I will have to honestly reply with, yes, that is what I personally feel. The absence of learning something because it makes us uncomfortable, in my opinion, is a disservice. But then again, anytime this subject comes to light I have never disguised my feelings on brumation. 

However, you should take no more issue with my feeling that way than I do with you feeling the opposite, you know? I am completely alright with and expect nothing different than folks having their own opinion....life should be that way, that to me is what ignites new findings and discoveries in a beneficial way.

I have said this before and I truly mean it....I share my beliefs not with the intent to get anyone to change their own mindset on this subject. That there are two sides to this subject. That there are folks who set up for this event and the tortoise are successful and thriving.




> Do we change anything in our husbandry to move them to this, NO.



Can you not allow yourself to agree then that this is and evolutionary trait then, that even though you have changed nothing, they still have the pull and drive ? This is not a set up statement, truly, a statement for meeting of the mind...



> Do we change anything as a result of their choosing to slow down, YES. They still have the same light and heat, albeit the natural length of daylight is significantly shortened in the winter months. _They are only offered food once or twice a week. Some will eat, some won't. _So, no one can say we belong to any "team". _We allow our tortoises to do as they choose._



Here is where I see an animal struggling between what is instinct and what is an altered state? My comment again IS NOT a slam, but simply an observation of what you describe....again, a point for discussion and not a point to get anyone to be on a team....

Also, I have CDTs. I know their life cycle. I try to offer them exposure to each and every part of their life cycle--with regards to this thread--brumation included. Do I think that I am a better caregiver than someone who does not include brumation in their offerings, no---I only wish when I see that someone does not is that they have made this choice for some real reason other than that of fear for losing a tortoise....there are so many other ways that people lose a tortoise being kept than this...

So, let me be clear as to what my beliefs is in response to this thread (although I have already done this)....is hibernation absolutely required?

I would have to say yes, I have found that it is a vital part of a brumating tortoise species to be allowed and should be encouraged to perform this event. 
I would suggest against anyone new to a brumating tortoise species just thinking that they can perform the event with no research and with no guidance, so do your research if you are going to care for a tortoise species that includes this event as part of their normal life cycle. 
I would suggest against brumating a tortoise that is new to you---I feel that you need to get to know the behavior of your particular guest in order to notice something going awry. 
I would suggest against brumating an ailing tortoise, as their immune system is not at its strongest---sure this tortoise will be hard to keep awake but keep at it, this tortoise will not forget what to do with a missed brumation while they get healthy.
I would suggest you research the act and set up of brumation if the species of tortoise you care for has evolved to include brumation. 
I do not believe that humans are qualified to alter such an evolutionary trait, as we will not be around long enough to fully grasp what our tinkering may cause...when in fact we have proof of the success evolution has equipped these tortoise with.

That is my stand on this particular subject and my reply to this thread.

I appreciate all that have participated in this thread and for the offer extended to me to join the conversation by the posting of this thread.


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## CactusVinnie (Dec 31, 2011)

Tim/Robin,

I was jumping because it sounded quite familiar, and the term "pruning" usually means something else. But since you explained your intention, glad to know it was nothing hostile. It's OK then !




-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
About hibernation: it was not that kind of "sponsored study" with "predictable outcome"- those are ordered by entities who mean serious money involved; there is no "Brumating Tortoise Union" or "Winter Tortoise Triad" . It was an amateur study, but those amateurs are amongst the best tortoise experts, since the pompose academics are rarely also tortoise breeders. And from those who are, all advocate brumation. No commercial reasons involved, no emotional anthropomorphysing of tortoises, and the usually natural approach, dogmatic for any scientist. 

Asking a biologist/ecologist about solid prove on how brumation is necessary and overwintering is wrong is a nonsense, since their invariable answer (mine including, being an ecologist) would be approximately:

... why to modify the parameters in wich an animal evolved and shaped its metabolism and biological cycle, instead of replicating them in the possible limits, just because they still live? "Still live well" is not by far a scientific argument! That's a hobby-world thing, when emotional approach prevail and has nothing to do with science. Also, the same approach can be met for instance in chicken farms, with crazy artificial night/day cycles and other horrors, to obtain fast and more profit- they live and breed there, but that has nothing to do with animal study, but solely with PROFIT. 
And the hobby-thing ... it would be ideal to shift from emotional, shallow and ignorant approach towards a more artisan-attitude, with care in replicating natural conditions as much as possible in a small tortoise garden, with documentation in habitat conditions, and maybe towards the ultimate level of understanding love for animals- conservation. They do that in Europe. They study habitats, they learn, and became redoutable experts (even if they are... IT people, plumbers or dentists as a profession). There are many cases of hobbysts that became true experts and enthusiast conservationists, in tortoise and many other categories of animals and plants. 
So, tortoise keeping or chicken breeding? Emotional, immature, ignorant and antropomorphysed, or documented amateur approach? There was no tortoise discussion here, only a bit of a conflict between natural-approach and toy-approach concerning tortoises. As usual, the poorest idea defends itself much better, since it has no argument- it just requires arguments from normality to legitimate it, and sometimes normality has no words to explain itself, because it's SO obvious! And poorest idea never tires, since it has no shape. It is enough for it to just be, and it's invincible. 
It's a global trend, in all the respects...


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## Tim/Robin (Dec 31, 2011)

ascott said:


> I will have to honestly reply with, yes, that is what I personally feel. The absence of learning something because it makes us uncomfortable, in my opinion, is a disservice.
> However, you should take no more issue with my feeling that way than I do with you feeling the opposite, you know? I am completely alright with and expect nothing different than folks having their own opinion....life should be that way, that to me is what ignites new findings and discoveries in a beneficial way.



I just find it terribly insulting that you boast that if we chose not to subject our animals to unfavorable or suboptimal conditions, that we are doing them a disservice. How can that be anything but insulting! There is no absence of learning or anything uncomfortable about brumation here. It is simply a choice to provide favorable conditions year round and allow the animals to do as they wish. I do not see that in any way a disservice to them!



ascott said:


> Do we change anything in our husbandry to move them to this, NO.
> Can you not allow yourself to agree then that this is and evolutionary trait then, that even though you have changed nothing, they still have the pull and drive ? This is not a set up statement, truly, a statement for meeting of the mind....



I have never once stated that this is NOT an evolutionary trait. Again, in Madagascar there is a time period that would not support their existence if they did not slow down. (Of interest, it has more to do with wet and dry than temperature). They absolutely have evolved to survive in their environment. Again, I allow them to do that which they choose. 



ascott said:


> Do we change anything as a result of their choosing to slow down, YES. They still have the same light and heat, albeit the natural length of daylight is significantly shortened in the winter months. _They are only offered food once or twice a week. Some will eat, some won't. _So, no one can say we belong to any "team". _We allow our tortoises to do as they choose._
> 
> Here is where I see an animal struggling between what is instinct and what is an altered state? My comment again IS NOT a slam, but simply an observation of what you describe....again, a point for discussion and not a point to get anyone to be on a team....



How is this a struggle? I do not see your reasoning here. How is an animal that is allowed to do as it chooses struggling? 



ascott said:


> So, let me be clear as to what my beliefs is in response to this thread (although I have already done this)....is hibernation absolutely required?
> 
> I would have to say yes, I have found that it is a vital part of a brumating tortoise species to be allowed and should be encouraged to perform this event.



I strongly and respectfully disagree. We will likely always disagree on this. But, how can it be absolutely required when many keepers have great success without it? It simply cannot be absolutely required!! I will leave it at that, a disagreement. 
However to all keepers, PLEASE do not feel or think that brumation is an absolute requirement in keeping healthy productive tortoises! It simply is NOT!


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## ascott (Dec 31, 2011)

> The absence of learning something because it makes us uncomfortable, in my opinion, is a disservice.



I have observed so many times....folks do not know what is involved with this event--- they have heard horror stories of how so many tortoise have died as a result strictly of brumation, how folks are scared to brumate because they have heard stories, some stories told from folks who have not ever set up a tortoise for this event----and not because they have researched the set up for offering brumation. 

So, when a person asks me what my take is on if brumation is required...my response will be yes, in their natural life cycle it is required-----not in the wild not in captivity--but rather, yes, in their life cycle it is required....so this is where I say, it is a disservice to a brumating tortoise species to not learn what the event is and how to successfully set up brumation for a brumating tortoise species.

You can take my feelings as a personal jab at YOU, HOWEVER, my feelings have nothing to do with you....but rather, the subject of brumation.

So as you have said, I will gladly accept that you have made your post about I am wrong and you are right---therefore, happily agree to disagree on seeing eye to eye on the discussion here.

I do hope that any new caregivers to brumating tortoise species understand that it IS totally up to them whether or not they set up their tortoise for brumation or not, but hope that they do this by research and research studies along with hearing what folks who have had direct experience with setting up for brumation think and what works in their practices....as this is a buffer for them creating their own set up---IF that is what THEY feel they should do.


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## Tim/Robin (Dec 31, 2011)

ascott said:


> So as you have said, I will gladly accept that you have made your post about I am wrong and you are right---therefore, happily agree to disagree on seeing eye to eye on the discussion here.



 It has nothing to do with who is right or wrong! It simply has to do with the general statement of "brumation/hibernation an absolute requirement. Your own words reiterate this fact.



ascott said:


> IF that is what THEY feel they should do.



By giving a keeper the choice, doesn't it negate the absolute requirement argument?


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## CactusVinnie (Dec 31, 2011)

Tim/Robin,




> How is this a struggle? I do not see your reasoning here. How is an animal that is allowed to do as it chooses struggling?
> 
> Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Is-Hibernation-Absolutely-Required?page=5#ixzz1i8iL4ozS



No intention to slam from me neither, just a single point, IMO a keypoint: they are tough fighters and it can be called "struggle", since from the moment we, humans, decide for them, from various "signs" or through sheer force, no matter the "signs", that they will _overwinter_, *they have no way to do as they choose *. They don't command you to keep a long day and summer temperatures- they just follow your will.

It cannot consider anymore that they "prefer" something, from the moment you took them indoors, and create in their ancient brain a conflict between decreased daylength and abnormal, persistent warmth of the indoors. Deep there, shortening day means time to start digging. Cool mornings, even with still warm days, make their behaviour change. 

They finally cease eating, even if the temperatures are good enough to proper digestion. They _know_ somehow that, undigested food in their stomach means certain death, and they are great in timing the date of the last serious meal, to fit the arriving of serious cold with empty stomachs- cold wich, by the way, they anticipate even if us humans don't suspect a sudden cooling. 

They burrow partially, then totally, emerging in warm days. Even still in unconfortable cold days, they emerge- why??? Confirmation: after 2-3 days, warm weather arrives and occasions prolonged basking. They get quite hot to the touch, if they got a good protected spot and optimise their angle of exposure. But still no eating, maybe just nipping a leaf and that's all.

First serious cold is usually anticipated and it finds the tortoises already burried to a safe deep. 

ALL THOSE THINGS WERE OBSERVATED BY MYSELF, and not many keepers will even hear about this complex behaviour! Why? They are not even suspecting that their tortoises are so much older and wiser than they think, and that it's fascinating to see them completing an annual cycle! Not even an occasion to try, since the rule in the US is to overwinter and all advices they receive are in this direction!! "Risky, even deadly, in many cases"- pfffff... better overwinter! 

Now... at some point in autumn, you take it indoors. Total mess!! Some try to escape the warmth, avoiding at least the basking spot, some adapt easier to the sudden change. Finally, most will give up, and let you convince them it's summer. 
I wonder how should they behave for the keeper to understand that they really want to brumate?? Keeping the hunger-strike is difficult after a while, and they should resume "normal" activity, or else they will burn out. 
So, again antropomorphysation... keeper waits a sign from them, if they really want to brumate- behaviour change etc.; but he forgets that the tortoise already sent him all the possible signs, letting him see all the preparing ritual for winter, each stage with its exact role. After taking it indoors, keeper abolish what is natural and declares the law of his own will, and no creature can resist the forced summer.

I see advices on how to get a sleepy tortoise active... It is advised to offer them... aberration... *14-15 hours* of artificial light , if the tortoise still resist to the indoor warmth and short daylength!!! That's midsummer in temperate areas!! Not even equatorial tortoises are experiencing such long days, they have 12/12 fix on 0 degrees lat. N and S!! So, they became not tropical, but Martian tortoises!! That's the aberrant chicken farm, with aberrant light cycles! It's so unnatural, that it cries for itself, no need to demonstrate nothing. 

If an animal lover cannot see what's natural by itself, from the beginning, I'm affraid many keepers will never understand _why some stubborn people keep saying some uninteligible things from wich some can hear from time to time an obsessive, agonising, "brumate, brumate"... _


Angela, 

Great point on "death stories"!! Why on the Euro forums I never managed to read a single case of hibernation death?? There may be some, but if not that easy to find them... that should ring a bell. Frozen tortoises and debile ones should not account, when rejecting brumation as a killer, better to be avoided. Just on BRUMATION itself!
It seems that brumating deaths are rather overrated legends than facts. 

Comparing to number of deaths during other stage than brumation, that shady legend became even thinner, since I suppose that even now, a kid's tortoise just died, and it's a conveiller belt of non-brumation related deaths. Maybe another one died right now, since 2 weeks ago, someone fed it a good piece of nutricious banana before putting it in the fridge or outbuilding, to have strength in order to take a long winter sleep... and so on...
Well, that kind of events will later appear as "very well documented proof that brumation kill too often to be accepted as a rule"...


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## Tim/Robin (Dec 31, 2011)

CactusVinnie said:


> Tim/Robin,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fascinating! I don't see your point, but a fascinating read. 



CactusVinnie said:


> Now... at some point in autumn, you take it indoors. Total mess!!



Wrong!! Assume nothing! 




CactusVinnie said:


> I see advices on how to get a sleepy tortoise active... It is advised to offer them... aberration... *14-15 hours* of artificial light , if the tortoise still resist to the indoor warmth and short daylength!!! That's midsummer in temperate areas!! Not even equatorial tortoises are experiencing such long days, they have 12/12 fix on 0 degrees lat. N and S!! So, they became not tropical, but Martian tortoises!! That's the aberrant chicken farm, with aberrant light cycles! It's so unnatural, that it cries for itself, no need to demonstrate nothing.




Huh????? 


My point here has been made. One cannot argue that brumation/hibernation is an absolute requirement, which afterall is what the OP was asking.


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## dmmj (Dec 31, 2011)

do tortoises (and reptiles in general) hibernate because they have to, or because they want to?


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## CactusVinnie (Dec 31, 2011)

dmmj said:


> do tortoises (and reptiles in general) hibernate because they have to, or because they want to?



Hi Dmmj!

Trap-question ?
They surely have to, as cold-blooded, no choice; they better do, when captives (some contesting, see all the stuff).

As about what they want... one thing is sure: they want to live as their areal dictates, as any creature. They worked quite long to adapt to temperate environments that well. Otherwise, we would have found them in mild climates only. But as usual, adaptation became the 2-nd nature, and brumation is kinda physiological requirement now- nothing new, some creatures fare really bad without it, some show a certain degree of tolerance. Despite even a higher degree of tolerance, it is still a physiological requirement for optimum state. 

As one stubborn new-arrived Ibera male keep showing me, some will insist to sleep indoors, for a while, then giving up. That guy still keeps hiding and sleeping while other newcomers bask and feed at this time. And health problems are out of the question: he was a Latino Feroz Lover during outdoor short episode. Maybe just exhausted from... too much love? To be investigated.

Definitely WC, max. 10 years old, maybe last 3-4 in captivity without brumation. And he still hasn't manage to learn his lesson... i wonder why?? He should be thrilled, ungrateful little fastidious bastard, finding himself in the regime that "he really wants", the one "he would surely choose" even in habitat... but cold and lack of food usually force him in that... despicable state called brumation. Maybe too young to know what is good for him?...

This guy surely made its point: even after at least 3 years in a warm appartment, he still tries to follow the ancient paths. The others eat reasonably (today- fresh Ranunculus and Malva). May this guy be one with a better memory ? But no problem, I'll show him what is better and safe for a temperate tortoise! He better don't push me, or else I will add another 200W bulb and we'll see then!

May I assume from that that he would be happier if cooler, then cold temps arrive, and he finally will CHOOSE to sleep in a cold place, because he just WANTS that, because he NEED it? Until now, it's quite obvious, IMHO.
If not allowed to "assume nothing" , at least I can say what he keeps me showing what he surely DON'T WANT, NEED or CHOOSE: basking spot, light and associated warmth. Vampire blood, Dracula Tortoise, or what?? 
Is this aversion of him towards light and warmth enough to be considered as "will'' or "need"? Because it is something from both here: he wouldn't want to, if he didn't needed to :shy:.


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## Shelly (Dec 31, 2011)

ascott said:


> I recall when we thought that desert (or arid) species needed no water (because they consumed all water they needed from food)



I still believe that to a very large degree.


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## ascott (Dec 31, 2011)

> However to all keepers, PLEASE do not feel or think that brumation is an absolute requirement in keeping healthy productive tortoises! It simply is NOT!





> _It has nothing to do with who is right or wrong!_



Uh, this is why I said;
I will gladly accept that you have made your post about I am wrong and you are right

Hi Fabien,

I enjoyed your read back, this shows me that I am not expressing myself incorrectly, but rather, my words are simply being met with a closed mind by some others....which is to be expected with this being the thread topic...as when I read others read back---they are completely stuck on their ideas, which again, is to sadly be expected with this being the thread topic.



> That's the aberrant chicken farm, with aberrant light cycles! It's so unnatural, that it cries for itself, no need to demonstrate nothing.



This is the most perfect description I have heard.... 








ascott Wrote: 
I recall when we thought that desert (or arid) species needed no water (because they consumed all water they needed from food)

_I still believe that to a very large degree._


Shelly, I also believe that they get a substantial amount of their water intake this way...however, I do know that they will consume water at every opportunity, eagerly


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## CactusVinnie (Jan 1, 2012)

Not by far any experience with Gopherus, but obviously arid climate tortoises are careful in conserving water by burrowing. That's what the reduced need of drinking. When such conserving water facilities are missing in captivity, the tortoise will surely drink sooner or later.

Angela,

What brought me only a "Huh??" from Tim/Robin, seems to be a banal thing to get for you, in fact another way to express your own opinion. All the time your words didn't need extra explanations, and when anyway detailed, still no use. Our ideas were refused from the start. no matter how many attemps to explain. 
Weird enough, as I said before, Europeans would find this debate quite funny, since it's obvious that if you can, you should replicate natural conditions as much as possible, brumation being the rule. We are maybe other... species, here in the Balkans, but W- Euros are Western-type mind persons too, like US people... still, on average, Euros show a higher degree of modesty, while (part of) US people have a dominating mindset. This dominating mindset express at all the life levels- even the pets should be as their Owners want; even temperate, the Testudo should behave as tropicals if the Owner wants to, regardless of anything. 
Of course, it's the Govt influence passed through the agressive media, and, if I may speculate, lack of a broader knowledge level due to the hard-working, fast paced type of life, despite the multitude of information sources- after all, it's the USA there, a country that has huge research possibilities. 

"Owner" vs. "Keeper" archetypes- the Keeper cares much more and strive to find more, to understand more, to offer more. The Owner doesn't need that- he just OWNS; his "subjects" should adopt his ways, not being understood and all the "eco-bio- natural-crap" some insist to impose. The Owner feels he has *rights*, a Keeper that he has *obligations*. A quite different approach. 

*Tim/Robin*, check on Google keywords like "poultry, production, light cycle" etc. and see what I was talking about. If you don't see that horrible parallel, then my point was made too.


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## Tim/Robin (Jan 1, 2012)

What you both refuse to see is I am neither pro nor con. I attempted to show that, but it seems it was a failed attempt. The comment about a closed mind surprised me. It is I who asked for futher discussion as I was trying to see Angela's point of brumation being absolutely required. I was hoping she could teach me something I did not know. I elaborated with the intent to show that it cannot be said that it is an absolute requirement. Nothing more, nothing less. Maybe it is a mere misunderstanding of definitions. To me, anything that is an absolute requirement would be met with failure if not provided or carried out. Such as food, if food is not offered or provided in some means, be it in a field to graze or in a dish, any animal will sooner or later fail. That is absolutely required.

Fabian, I am very familiar with poulty production and their use of light. Again, don't assume anything. You know nothing of my background or experience.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jan 1, 2012)

Tim/Robin said:


> What you both refuse to see is I am neither pro nor con. I attempted to show that, but it seems it was a failed attempt. The comment about a closed mind surprised me. It is I who asked for futher discussion as I was trying to see Angela's point of brumation being absolutely required. I was hoping she could teach me something I did not know. I elaborated with the intent to show that it cannot be said that it is an absolute requirement. Nothing more, nothing less. Maybe it is a mere misunderstanding of definitions. To me, anything that is an absolute requirement would be met with failure if not provided or carried out. Such as food, if food is not offered or provided in some means, be it in a field to graze or in a dish, any animal will sooner or later fail. That is absolutely required.
> 
> Fabian, I am very familiar with poulty production and their use of light. Again, don't assume anything. You know nothing of my background or experience.



Don't waste your time, Tim/Robin...CactusVinnie(Fabian) isn't interested in hearing anything that does doesn't support how *Absolutely Correct *his position on the matter is, and, so, the rest of us are *Know Nothings*. He even twists words and jumps to some bizarre (but amusing) conclusions to re-convince himself of his *Absolute Correctness*. 

Angela may be somewhat more open-minded.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 1, 2012)

I was just thinking (as I scrolled down the subjects of today's posts) that this thread was to be commended for its civility, even though there were strong thoughts on both sides. 

*So, let's please keep it civil. After all, this isn't a debate.* We're just giving our opinions to the OP on whether or not hibernation (brumation) is required.

I am on the brumation side of things. If my type of tortoise brumates during the cold months in nature, then they also brumate here in my care.

But because I do turtle and tortoise rescue, I sometimes have to keep a tortoise up for the winter.

In my opinion, its up to the keeper. If they want to keep the tortoise awake, then go for it.


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## ascott (Jan 1, 2012)

> I just find it _terribly insulting_ that you _boast_ that if we chose not to subject our animals to unfavorable or suboptimal conditions, that we are doing them a disservice.



Again, here I simply shared what my beliefs are---my beliefs were taken as an insult, my beliefs have nothing to do with you---so not meant in any personal fashion directed at you...Boast? We must have a completely different understanding of this descriptive...I share my beliefs and it is reduced into Boasting? 



> However to all keepers, PLEASE do not feel or think that brumation is an absolute requirement in keeping healthy productive tortoises! It simply is NOT!
> 
> My point here has been made. One cannot argue that brumation/hibernation is an absolute requirement,
> 
> ...


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## Tim/Robin (Jan 1, 2012)

ascott said:


> _*What you both refuse to see is I am neither pro nor con*_
> 
> Really?



Absolutely! If you reread all of my postings from the very beginning of this discussion I have only kept the take that it cannot be viewed as "absolutely required". I have never presented an argument for or against brumation. I have given personal examples of species I keep to illustrate that I allow them to do what they choose to do in my care. 

Again, food is absolutely required, brumation is NOT absolutely required in keeping tortoises in captivity. I don't know how to make it any easier to comprehend than that. 

Are other members having a difficult time seeing my point? Maybe I am lost in the flow of words and posts.


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## Tccarolina (Jan 1, 2012)

Fabian,
you have a very picturesque command of the English language, and are a skillful literary debater. I find myself laughing as I read some of your responses. I can't help but think this gives you an unfair advantage. 

Steve


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## ascott (Jan 1, 2012)

> Again, food is absolutely required, *brumation is NOT absolutely required in keeping tortoises in captivity.* I don't know how to make it any easier to comprehend than that.



I apologize, here you make a statement (as underlined) that you can not, without exact proof of the lifelong affect on the tortoise, make. In my beliefs, brumation is AS important as food. Do you-- not understand?

You are not qualified to make that type of statement (unless of course you have been around since the start of life)....lets keep this clear. If your opinion or beliefs are such then awesome, we all have beliefs and opinions.

I have said all through every post that what I state are _my beliefs_---what you state here should only be made by you based on your beliefs and opinions....as is the basis for my continuation for this ongoing discussion.

This forum is not designed as a scientific based ONLY forum...if it were there would not be much of a forum, as most here are not qualified (by degrees, published reports and studies) to participate in such a forum. (IMHO, lets not forget this one )

If you want me to say that there is no proof, that a tortoise that has brumation as part of their life cycle should be brumated or not (I have no need to do this--Proof is in the pudding so to speak--at least a gazillion years of proof, give or take vs 30 or so years of domesticated care).

We have forced domestication on tortoise for a relatively short amount of years vs their entire being---therefore, we have no true published report/study that has taken place over (well lets make it a short evolutionary time frame, shall we) the last 500 years or so-- to show the outcome of forcing a tortoise that brumates as part of their evolutionary life cycle, to not complete their life cycle--and in some tortoise, it is inclusive of brumation. I choose to follow the rules of nature as much as "humanly" possible. Again, this is my beliefs.

Now, I have shared my beliefs and opinions on this thread topic. You seem to be having then a discussion based on nothing---as you say you are not pro or con----how about you commit and give a statement that shows which you are, pro or con?---I dont mean leaving lights on--offering food from time to time during the "down" times...._but I mean really give a statement based on your beliefs on this topic question_....if indeed your only point is to prove that _there is no published way to prove _if brumation is required in a brumating species...then I have to laugh when I say, NO DUH


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jan 1, 2012)

ascott said:


> In my beliefs, brumation is AS important as food.



Must respectfully point out a pair of Iberians that I gave to the lady I previous mentioned as losing her entire collection due to the bad advice that brumation was absolutely needful...I bought both in 1981, gave them to her after the tragedy, and she still has them, so that's 30 years I know of their non-brumated life (guessing they were at least 10 yoa when I bought them), and in 30 years they've lived healthily, laid several viable clutches of eggs, and added maybe as many as 200 new members to the world-wide Iberian tortoise population...

I must respectfully point out that I seriously doubt they'd've lived that long and well had they not been fed during that period...

And so, I must respectfully conclude that brumatiing them is hardly as important as feeding them.


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## ascott (Jan 1, 2012)

Hi Terry,

Here is in where I believe that there may be a missing of the minds, I mean that with great respect. 

I am a person that believes that the whole picture, that every piece of the pie allows the rest of the pie to successfully be whole. To be as designed.

I believe that if one of the pieces is removed, voided--that the whole is no longer. 

So, for this way of believing, each part is essential to the well being of each of the other parts....I believe that for a tortoise that is designed to brumate, if you remove this _part_ of the whole---we do not know what the _lifelong_ result will be, let alone the evolutionary impact....I believe to be simply a caregiver of a tortoise...a buffer, if you will....they will continue on well beyond my short existence. 

Therefore, I find that the best teacher to me on how to continue to provide care for a species of tortoise that has included brumation in its lifecycle, is to indeed continue the evolutionary design. This design, in my opinion, has shown to be very successful on behalf of the various species of tortoise.


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## dmmj (Jan 1, 2012)

I like pie


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## ascott (Jan 1, 2012)

> I like pie


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## Yvonne G (Jan 1, 2012)

Its too bad that Ed doesn't post here anymore. He has a different outlook on whether a tortoise is "designed" to brumate or not. I hesitate to write this, because I don't want to mis-speak, but if I'm remembering correctly, he has allowed his tortoises a cool-down period during the winter and these included aldabrans, redfoots and leopards. What I gather from that is that a tortoise isn't necessarily "designed" to brumate, but rather will brumate if the conditions are such that it is required.


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## jaizei (Jan 1, 2012)

emysemys said:


> Its too bad that Ed doesn't post here anymore. He has a different outlook on whether a tortoise is "designed" to brumate or not. I hesitate to write this, because I don't want to mis-speak, but if I'm remembering correctly, he has allowed his tortoises a cool-down period during the winter and these included aldabrans, redfoots and leopards. What I gather from that is that a tortoise isn't necessarily "designed" to brumate, but rather will brumate if the conditions are such that it is required.



That's exactly what I was referring to. I was hesitant to mention Ed or link to the thread because he is not here to speak for himself. 

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-help-does-my-hermanns-need-to-hibernate#axzz1iAMtPT1H



And for good measure

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-How-much-should-I-pay-my-pet-sitter?page=2#axzz1iF2mIF4o


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## Tim/Robin (Jan 1, 2012)

An act to survive unfavorable conditions. Did they choose to do it hundreds of thousands of years ago, or was it necessary to ensure their survival? I am sure we all know the answer to that question.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jan 1, 2012)

dmmj said:


> I like pie



Baking a couple of Bartlett pear pies (say that 5X fast! ) even as we continue this discussion.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 1, 2012)

I have an anecdote to share:

About five years ago I received a whole breeding colony of Russian tortoises from an acquaintance who lives in San Diego. She felt the tortoises needed to live in a climate where it gets colder in the winter because they wouldn't hibernate for her. *So, in warmer climates, a group of tortoises that usually hibernate in the wild, was not hibernating.*


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## bellyboo (Jan 1, 2012)

Oh my, I apologize for abandoning my thread. Obviously it's grown and look forward to reading through it when I get a moment. I've been traveling for the holidays.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 1, 2012)

No, Isabelle, its us who need to apologize to you. You asked if it was absolutely required for a *hermann's* tortoise to hibernate and we all went off onto the brumation/hibernation tangent and decided it needed to be debated rather than giving you what you asked for. I hope its ok with you that a moderator didn't step in and make them stay on topic. But it really is a worthy discussion. (at least that's my excuse.)


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## bellyboo (Jan 1, 2012)

emysemys said:


> No, Isabelle, its us who need to apologize to you. You asked if it was absolutely required for a *hermann's* tortoise to hibernate and we all went off onto the brumation/hibernation tangent and decided it needed to be debated rather than giving you what you asked for. I hope its ok with you that a moderator didn't step in and make them stay on topic. But it really is a worthy discussion. (at least that's my excuse.)



By all means, debate away! That's perfectly fine.  I look forward to reading through all of it!


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## CactusVinnie (Jan 1, 2012)

Tim/Robin,

I really don't know nothing about your background, but from your only "huh??" it sounded like... well... simply "huh??"... What should I had understood from that? Anything but that you may be familiar with the field!
And that "assume nothing", while it is a good advice in general, it just fades and became banal. Of course nobody can assume too much about the others here- with the exception of Terry, who really had a glimpse on my true personality and intelect .



> brumation is AS important as food



About comparing the need to feed vs the need of brumate- that is, from the start, a very weird thing, to say the least!!! That's not what Angela wanted to say, it was a metaphore to show how mandatory is brumation in her opinion! You took it _literally_ on purpose and that was not fair...

Hunger finally kills, non-brumating has other, subtle consequences, belonging to the endocrine area!! If you are a poultry- industry king, or at least very familiar with that field, yourself or the veterinarians you maybe work with should know what I am talking about. So, if you knew, why that "huh??" and so much mystery?
It just manipulates the endocrine system by various schedules of light, temperature and food, to gain more and fast, with an obvious material interest. 
_Can't the same thing happen, unwillingly, when keeping a pet-tortoise? Of course it can, and it does!_ It is about disrupting the normal glandular activity, a debilitating practice- be it on short or longterm, be it on mammal, fish, bird or reptile.

Except for the demonstrated- no matter you would ask again and again from a simple, clear statistic- hatchling and juvenile increased mortality, NOBODY- me, Angela or anyone- said that overwintering just... KILLS!! You are now twisting our opinion towards something else!
We just strongly affirm it is HEALTHIER, and it is a *good practice* to respect that part of an annual cycle in a tortoise life, as well as we find a *bad practice* to keep the captive animals in drastically different conditions from those in the wild- that including brumation, diet, biotope etc. 


Supremelysteve,

Thanks for the double compliment !! I truly hear you , I know what you mean! I know my English is... let's say, _different_, to be safe... and I have a certain... gift in debating (and to quote Terry, especially in debating when knowing nothing but that I'm the best, period ! If I made you smile, you made me smile too, since I got what you meant!


Yvonne, 

When I will have time, I will search through Ed's (it's EJ, isn't it?) messages. Indeed too bad he is not here anymore. 
About the Russians: San Diego in *winter* is as warm to MUCH WARMER compared to Russian's habitat in *springtime*! Compare to Tashkent climate- only 2*C cooller!; compare to Atyrau... so many degrees warmer, that... "comparison is futile", as Borgs used to say.
So, no wonder they are active all winter! Remeber, I compared *winter* in San Diego to *spring* in habitat, no winter to winter!
Chech Weatherbase, for instance, and correlate with Agrionemys areal. Numbing cold in winter, much cooler springs than yours.


Terry,

You keep not insinuating, but openly affirming that *brumation kills tortoises*! What the "assume nothing" advice tells you this time, when it is really need for a closer look? 
I asked you about details on this case- *received nothing, no information, not a single word related to tortoises!!! *

So, as long as you do not really participate with *facts*, in a constructive manner, and instead showing... let's say _sad conclusions_ regarding my person... realise for yourself that you had NO CONTRIBUTION in any tortoise discussion. 

I gave you last days 20 minutes from my time... searching through your first messages- those usually are the most savurous and spicy ones, because they show the initial, real level of knowledge of many forum-Barracudas, wich prove to be, in fact, Guppies . 
You are, in fact, a 2010 beginner, just like me! Well, of course I didn't kept tortoises as long as you did, but talking here about the other level- *the true tortoise keeping*, wich it seems that we both started in the same year.
You asked elementary questions about food, maturity size and lots of elementary simple things! What breeding? What hatchlings? Incubating technique? What *old knowledge*- wich is *not by far the same with *having decades of tortoise keeping!! 

I personally know an elder person wich has tortoises for more than 30 years, and I really wondered how on Earth could they just survive in those idiotic, revolting conditions they lived in!! And... that's not all!! One female once managed even to lay eggs- of course, nothing came out of them... They are 6 Romanian Ibera, liberally taken as adults from the wild... to be "taken care of"... What an imbecile!!! Well, they always brumate in an unheated room. Lucky them... if I may say that "lucky" word ...

So, can he talk about "my 30 years of experience in tortoise keeping"? *Oh, YES! He just do that with any opportunity, with maximum ease and confidence*, while he is in reality nothing more then a dumb ignorant, who put an end to the life of 6 adult tortoises! Because, even not dead yet, the species lost 6 breeding individuals, and in 30 years, hundreds of babies that could have been now, in a certain percent, old breeding individuals, with at least 15 breeding seasons behind them, even grand-parents at their turn!!! 

Now... I am not insulting you by comparing that... man... with you! Because you are not the same stuff- you searched knowledge, while he sees himself already all-knowing- "30 years of experience", isn't it?
Too bad that you are too rigid and don't accept any approach that differs from what you have learned before. 

So, nothing bad in being a beginner- no matter the age, the will to know is important. But it's embarassing, in my opinion, to be that active in putting me down with quite unfriendly words (although no vulgarity in your language), while there is a very narrow chance that I could know a bit more than you know. 

There is no offence/irony in my words- after all, I am a bloody ecology graduate with a master degree, I love tortoises, I had lots of time (as a simple school-teacher) to study them (and that's what I did for maybe hundreds of hours on the Net), including visits in their habitat (4 in 15 years)---> all that giving me an advantage over you- call it unfair if you want.

All that stuff was not intended to show how smart I am- after all, I am just a school/sometimes highschool teacher, not a researcher or something similar. In fact, I am basically a loser, but a honnest one, and a very good hobbyst, be it about cacti, fish, tortoises and a few other unimportant things. Too bad I wasn't in the money thing- I would have been a very rich man now... 
That's all, and I hope we settled that embarassing, unconfortable exchange of hostile-ish replies. If not, let's put facts in our replies, that way at least we will have an useful exchange of ideas, even not becoming buddies. Well, "buddies" is too much, but I would be honored if an elder would have a friendly approach on me.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jan 1, 2012)

CactusVinnie said:


> Terry,
> 
> You keep not insinuating, but openly affirming that *brumation kills tortoises*! What the "assume nothing" advice tells you this time, when it is really need for a closer look?
> I asked you about details on this case- *received nothing, no information, not a single word related to tortoises!!! *
> ...



*And to, once again, answer the initial question for bellyboo: No, brumation is really not required for your Hermann's tortoise to live a long healthy life. There is no real evidence, either way, that brumation or allowing them to stay warm, well-fed and awake through the cold season has any tangible effect on their health, longevity or ability to reproduce. It truly makes no difference, which is why so many don't bother...and the tortoises don't care.

OTOH, if you don't know every little thing about brumation, you can kill your tortoise, because it's not a simple matter to brumate them...so, if your tortoise is living well in captivity, due to the right food, temperature range, and lighting conditions are being met, it can continue living just as well through the winter, too.

And if you decide brumation is what you want to have your tortoise do, be sure you know everything about it before you commence.*



emysemys said:


> I have an anecdote to share:
> 
> About five years ago I received a whole breeding colony of Russian tortoises from an acquaintance who lives in San Diego. She felt the tortoises needed to live in a climate where it gets colder in the winter because they wouldn't hibernate for her. *So, in warmer climates, a group of tortoises that usually hibernate in the wild, was not hibernating.*



I suspect that no "hibernating" tortoise will hibernate if it doesn't get cold enough, and will come up when there are warm spells (likely to become more of an accurance now that Climate Change is under way), thus the recent stories of Hermann's, Greeks, Russians and Marginateds out on warmer winter days, try to hustle up some food.


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## CactusVinnie (Jan 1, 2012)

Terry,
Valuable bandwith or not, here's my word.



> realise for yourself that you had NO CONTRIBUTION in any tortoise discussion.
> 
> Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/newreply.php?tid=38255#ixzz1iHSSklkz



I meant in *any tortoise brumation discussion* only. No need of memo, since, I repeat - again and again- no bit of details about offered by you, only brief, truncated report, and your (doubtful) conclusion regarding the cause. That's pretty enough for me. 

BTW, Hermanns, Greek, Marginated (Russians- I don't think so) came out in warm winter episodes also in habitat, in some places almost every year; unlikely but not impossible here. It is happening at the moment in all Mediteranean basin. Abnormal warm winter. Bucharest is more like Kavala, Greece now, but not enough warmth for them to go out, fortunately.


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## ascott (Jan 2, 2012)

> About comparing the need to feed vs the need of brumate- that is, from the start, a very weird thing, to say the least!!! That's not what Angela wanted to say, _it was a metaphore to show how mandatory is brumation in her opinion! You took it literally on purpose and that was not fair..._



Fabian, thank you and you were absolutely bang on here.



> Except for the demonstrated- no matter you would ask again and again from a simple, clear statistic- hatchling and juvenile increased mortality, N_OBODY- me, Angela or anyone- said that overwintering just... KILLS!!_ You are now twisting our opinion towards something else!
> _We just strongly affirm it is HEALTHIER, and it is a good practice to respect that part of an annual cycle in a tortoise life, as well as we find a bad practice to keep the captive animals in drastically different conditions from those in the wild- that including brumation, diet, biotope etc.
> _



Again here, I completely agree.



> _An act to survive unfavorable conditions. Did they choose to do it hundreds of thousands of years ago, or was it necessary to ensure their survival?_ I am sure we all know the answer to that question.




This is the best comment (I mean this seriously, not sarcastically) I do not know where it is documented that Evolution takes requests....it simply is. 

So, yes--they choose to survive, so yes they chose to do what it takes to survive and evolve, so yes--they did choose, there fore this part of their life cycle serves them well, why abandon it now? What will happen if their life cycle is disrupted, and I ask this in the long term--not merely a hundred years or a thousand years? These are questions that you can not answer, none of us can for certain, but rather can certainly give ones opinion on 

So, I would suppose "we all" don't really know the answer to that statement...but again, thank you for bringing up that great point....


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## Yvonne G (Jan 2, 2012)

ascott said:


> So, yes--they choose to survive, so yes they chose to do what it takes to survive and evolve, so yes--they did choose, there fore this part of their life cycle serves them well, why abandon it now? What will happen if their life cycle is disrupted, and I ask this in the long term--not merely a hundred years or a thousand years?



I think you're making the argument's other side point with this bit. Evolution caused the tortoises to need to brumate. It got cold so they adapted. Likewise, if its not cold, they don't need to brumate.


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## CactusVinnie (Jan 2, 2012)

Angela, 

I hardly found vague referrences to brumation deaths... in fact, no documented case. I really found ZERO cases on all my forum diggings when even a single person to say "*although temperature and humidity were in the accepted limits, I found my tortoise/s dead in fridge/hibernacula"*!
What I do found- many reports of death by freezing in unproper brumation quarters. BTW, some freezings resulted in unfazed survivors, either if took out of brumation or let them continuing it. 
Also, some dehydration deaths, especially in juveniles- and as far as we know, correct brumation usually reduce juvenile mortality. That makes sense, since juveniles are so tiny and easy to dehydrate in no time=> MISTAKE.

I do not imply that brumation deaths didn't exist, but I am also tired to point that mistakes from the owner's part are excluded. 

I recalled the totally wrong and unmotivated myth that "tortoises should reach adulthood/5-6 years before being let to brumate." I read that nonsense in a lot of places- where, of course, it was discarded, people there pointing out that nobody keeps tiny tortoises awake until they get bigger. But how many keepers had the inspiration to ask, and to ask at the proper place? Obviously, they are rather the type of keepers who offer to their tortoises bananas+ other fruits, lettuce, mustard greens, cabbage, maybe glass vivaria indoors, resulting in weakened tortoises, if not severely deformed. 
Well, yes, I doubt too that this kind of keeper knows something on brumation, and when he tries it just because other equally "experienced" voices advice him so, it results in disaster. I wrote "experienced", because no one who has not much, but just correct basic knowledge in tortoises (my type of keeper) would advice brumation for any tortoise, only after questioning and recommending first *preparing the debile tortoise* for that: at least one season outdoors, with correct feeding! 

So, I see the recipe for disaster in that "first get big, then hibernate" type of advices. I surely accept that this could result in "brumation death"! It shows how *ignorance*, not *brumation*, kills! 

Another problem: how many keepers from the "many", but rather doubtful ones who lost a tortoise in brumation surely had a correct identified temperate climate tortoise? 
Bad husbandry, bad understanding and preparation for winter, and finally... a few months of cold for a... Maghreb tortoise (!), that brumates in a very different manner (a little warmer, with often emerging episodes; they often even don't go underground!!)- where all those things can lead? Yes, I wouldn't bet too much on the tortoise survival, in such conditions.

Keep in mind that the "brumation deaths" are almost legends. Even if they were real, and even numerous, they could belong to the other *tortoise-keeping era*- namely, the time when Britain especially sucked literally hundreds of thousands of N-African tortoises, when they were ridiculously cheap, to be found at almost any place, and they were called, in a familiar way, "garden tortoises". Considering the well-known fragility of these Graeca-complex taxons, and the very low level of real knowledge in tortoise keeping in general, no wonder that the legend appeared! 
Situation turn: laws in Maghreb countries changed, the huge legal depletion of native tortoise population stopped, but continued with much reduced numbers as low-scale poaching and traffic. 
Where to get tortoises from? Quite fast, the Balkans and Turkey became the most important suppliers. This time, it was Boettgeri and Ibera time, and, as we know, baby, they are smashing hardy ! Those much resilient taxons, although still ending in the hands of ignorant owners, were not that easy to kill (see my above story on that idiot that managed to keep alive 6 Iberas in horrible conditions). They even endured British winters outdoors. Not all survived, but brumation deaths became so rare, and, with time passing and improving quality of available information on tortoise keeping, they almost "faded in the mists of oblivion" ...

Of course, in parallel, the same evolution happened in France and Germany. Germany had not too much access to African Graecas, but Balkan/Turkey tortoises had flown there in great numbers. Communist countries (Romania not included) also received some Agrionemys from communist Central Asia republics. 

That not so wild speculation of mine may explain the insubstantiality of the "brumation kills" ridiculous legend.

I tried to compensate my bulk-quantity/poor quality messages with even more... quantity , since I am not that full of quality and I am not that precious with the _poor, exceeded, bandwidth_. At least, some of us really use it .

Yvonne,

Yes, it is logical what you said. Just it is about long-term adaptations, not that we do with our temperate tortoises for short-term. Only around Mediterranean Basin you find true-brumating tortoises, milder/shorter/discontinue-brumating tortoises, to never brumating tortoises. Each group adapted for different conditions. 
Of course, neither me, and I think Angela too, advocate Morroco tortoises to be brumated as Iberas- although some manage to do that. I just point out that I am only talking about Hermanni, Ibera, Marginata, Horsfieldi. To each tortoise, respecting his natural cycle- be it brumation, wet/dry seasons dictated behaviour etc.


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## ascott (Jan 2, 2012)

> I think you're making the argument's other side point with this bit. Evolution caused the tortoises to need to brumate. It got cold so they adapted. Likewise, if its not cold, they don't need to brumate.




Hi Yvonne,

I believe that I said in like 500 of my prior posts D) that brumation is a part of some tortoise species life cycle. 

The absence of food, the freezing temps are indeed factors of the whole cycle which are part of many triggers that some tortoise species have been designed with, this is evolution, as like with brumation is a part of some tortoise species life cycle-- as is aestivation for the flip season...again, all part of the life cycle of the tortoise.. 

Yvonne, my point is and has been; we should not monkey with what evolution has designed. So, if I were to force my CDTs to remain awake once they do their natural slow down I would be altering their evolutionary cycle. 

Evolution has built into them switches that are triggered by a variety of reason--which we only can speculate those obvious reasons, as we have not observed and documented them in captivity on a wide scale for many years (only the last 30-40 years have we forced domestication in large numbers)....my concern is that if we provide all other replication to their daily life (life cycle) BUT then refuse to allow them to complete their cycle, refusing a brumating tortoise its right to complete its cycle---we are altering their design. How will this affect our tortoise in the life of the tortoise? You, me, nor anyone can tell this---we can speculate---we can gather our own conclusions....however, I choose to follow what evolution has proven works for the tortoise....

Also, I am not participating in this thread to win any argument...I felt it necessary to share that there is support for folks who want to also follow the natural life cycle of specific brumating tortoise. I answered the question on this thread with what I believe---as did with others. 

When I see this subject come to light on the forum it is immediately met with alot of folks saying things like no--don't do it your tortoise will be dead, no---don't do it you are being cruel to force starve your tortoise, no---don't do it ---THERE IS NO REASON....? Evolution has proven that it is a part of their life cycle...proven it with their continued existence....

I am not qualified to think that I know better than what is....I believe that we should serve as a buffer rather than to dominate yet another species....I believe that we simply muck things up more times than not and don't appreciate and give way to the grand design of things that came long before us and will also remain and evolve further well beyond each of us....I simply think that we should allow what is to be what is...


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## Tim/Robin (Jan 2, 2012)

ascott said:


> they choose to survive, so yes they chose to do what it takes to survive and evolve, so yes--they did choose, there fore this part of their life cycle serves them well,



Was it really a choice? I hardly think so. If they choose the other route, (not to brumate during unfavorable conditions) they cease to exist.

Is evolution a choice? Do the weaker simply choose to die and the stronger survive? Again, I hardly think so. I think you yourself said "it simply is". 

I never remember any reference about evolution being a choice. If I am forgetting something, please help me remember and point me where I can read more and get it right.  

Please note: my reference to evolution here is "biological evolution" as very simply defined "a change in a population or populations over the course of generations".


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## ascott (Jan 2, 2012)

> I recalled the totally wrong and unmotivated myth that "tortoises should reach adulthood/5-6 years before being let to brumate." I read that nonsense in a lot of places- where, of course, it was discarded, people there pointing out that nobody keeps tiny tortoises awake until they get bigger. But how many keepers had the inspiration to ask, and to ask at the proper place?



Fabian,

I have to share, I was a person that fed into this--my reason for my feed into this was based from simple old fashion ugly fear and ignorance ---fear that if I were to share my beliefs with someone---that I do believe and know that hatchlings and young tortoise brumate, and then they in turn took my belief on this subject and were then not detail oriented enough, that they could expose the youngins to the wrong conditions and cause harm or fatality...

I believe that with hatchlings and young tortoise there is a bit of tweaking that has to happen to provide a successful set up for brumation---special care has to be taken for hydration (before, during and after) along with quick dehydration being a real thing---length of time offered for the youngin to brumate and such---all are a bit more critical for a youngin than the bit hardier and more forgiving adult.

In my studies though (along now with the added observations you also have shared, thank you) I find that I am getting a bit more comfortable with sharing information that it can be a positive thing to do and to not be so fearful, but rather educate. In regards to youngins I mean 

I of course will continue to educate myself with any and all published reports to gain as much knowledge of the performance of brumation for youngins. As well as absorb as much first hand knowledge and tips from care givers that perform this on a regular basis....


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## CactusVinnie (Jan 2, 2012)

> I never remember any reference about evolution being a choice. If I am forgetting something, please help me remember and point me where I can read more and get it right. Tongue
> 
> Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Is-Hibernation-Absolutely-Required?page=7#ixzz1iKkurVTr



Tim/Robin, if I may chime in: 

If evolution is not a choice, I wonder what do you understand by "choice" when talking about a plant or an animal- except humans! Still yet, it seems that "choice"- in the sense related to "will"- do exist- check Lamarck approach. Beings seemed to relentlessly "want" to change in order to adapt, evolution being not based on "survival of the fittest", wich is not by far enough in explaining more than some evolutionary aspects.
But if we get into evolutionary theories, or even Evolution vs. Creation thing, the problem of brumating vs. non-brumating would became something like believer vs. non-believer- different approaches/views on life in general. In fact, that is the real problem (or "cause", it sounds more neutral)- we simply cannot see things in the same way.

Angela,

I admitted myself that I was too a little tempted to "make it easier/shorter" for my hatchlings. The reason: first timer, a kind of fear that I may be wrong somewhere and kill the babies... 
The long interval when the keeper doesn't see his hatchlings daily generates an insecurity feeling (are they ok there? Is it something bad happening there in the cold, and I maybe miss it? they are so tiny! should I check them more often? but I may disturb them? and be forced to stop the brumation? etc.). 
I felt the same fear as you - but I always considered a simple truth: they do that in the wild with ease, only 200km east of Bucharest; they are strong enough to dig, even with those tiny, soft claws; nobody baths them and keeps them hydrated; if it's drought, they just hide, while in my care they still feed; well, quite an easy and safe life for a hatchling- *so if they can do it without any help, they surely can do it even safer when helped!*
That and reading other's people experiences and clear, unambiguous advices that they should brumate as the adults, make me let any fear and be determined: if I do it correctly, following nature's simple ways, it will be ok! Because it's not witchcraft, nor Russian roulette- it's just respecting a few simple keypoints. 

You definitely are on the way to profound understanding, if I am allowed to say my humble opinion. Anyone on that way is not mistake and doubt-free, but the most important thing- as Terry said, and he knows better - is an open mind.


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## Tim/Robin (Jan 2, 2012)

ascott said:


> how about you commit and give a statement that shows which you are, pro or con?---



So as not to ignore your request.......

I simply cannot say I am for or against brumation! Can it be done successfully? YES, it has been done by many. Is it beneficial to the animal? I have seen no proof that this is true. I have not found the study Fabian quoted translated to English. Therefore I have not read it or critiqued it to have formed my own opinion of it. I have never lost a brumating species hatchling, and I have never brumated a single one. So my data is contrary to the research explained by Fabian. 
Can a brumating species be kept successfully with out brumation? YES, it too has been done by many. (please note, I have absolutely no experience with desert tortoises native to the US) My personal thought is, brumation is done out of a necessity to survive unfavorable conditions. I see no reason to subject my personal animals to unfavorable conditions. I have not seen any convincing evidence to change my view on that. But again, I do not say what I do is what everyone should do, therefore I am not for or against it. We each have our own thoughts, methods, and reasons for keeping tortoises they way we do. We also all live in very different climates and environments.



CactusVinnie said:


> we simply cannot see things in the same way.



Agreed!!


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## ascott (Jan 2, 2012)

> Agreed!!



Tim/Robin,

I can happily "DITTO". I feel we have achieved a meeting of the minds with this reply, meeting of the minds does not mean we have to agree, but simply understand. I thank you for all of your input, seriously I do.

Fabian,

I thank you for your thoughts and sharing. I look forward, with child like eagerness, to these types of conversation in the future....

Terry,

I also have enjoyed your participation in this thread. Thank you.

Yvonne,

I always enjoy your input as well. Thank you.

And thanks to everyone else who also took the time to come in and visit this ongoing conversation. 

Bellyboo; I do truly hope that you will absorb from all of the information shared here in great detail a format from with which to find your own path of care giving.... thank you for offering this thread up for us to share and enjoy---and learn.


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## Tim/Robin (Jan 2, 2012)

ascott said:


> Tim/Robin,
> 
> I can happily "DITTO". I feel we have achieved a meeting of the minds with this reply, meeting of the minds does not mean we have to agree, but simply understand. I thank you for all of your input, seriously I do.



Thank you too. I (Tim) will go back under my rock and do what I do best. That is caring for and producing some amazing tortoises, it certainly is not debating .


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## CactusVinnie (Jan 2, 2012)

If people here use to thank wich other after a debate, me too, I will thank to all participants to this discussion!
I surely saw different approaches to learn from and I enjoyed it!

Me too, I will soon crawl under the cover of my underground hydrophore chamber to do what I do good enough : checking my brumating babies!


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jan 3, 2012)

It has been, indeed, a lively little debate.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 3, 2012)

And it just goes to prove that we, as a group, can be civil and have debates without it getting to a point where a moderator has to step in and rein us in. Thank you all for that!


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## CactusVinnie (Jan 4, 2012)

It will never need that, Yvonne !


*GB*, there are some aspects that puzzle me. 

I had an Ibera that received a 6 weks brumation (short one, since she arrived in December). Next spring she laid 4 eggs, all generating perfect babies. I cannot count that as brumation or overwintering, but it was definitely a restart of her system. Influence in fertility? I cannot say now.

Now I have another Ibera rescued- she had a horrible life for at least 2-3 years, maybe- but this one will definitely not brumate a bit, since it has an intermittent runny nose- in fact, not the well-known contagious type of RNS, since she ate greedily, and none of her neigbours showed any problem. She was very weak, and she had a bad purulent infection at the nostrils level- I cleaned the resulting wound, it reinfected, then healed, then passing to the another nostril etc. Gaining some strength (even syringe fed initially, with a kind of weeds-shake), she managed to fare well even now, when indoors. I logically suppose that when spring arrives, she will be able to force out the infection and heal for good. Maybe even to lay some eggs ? She gained quite some weight under my care, and as weight concerns, she would be fit enough for just a few eggs- who knows? I just hope, she is very beautiful!

Now, it is just carrying and waiting. But I have dug a little about overwintering breeders to find about resulting level of fertility, because on my other forums all breeders brumate, and success in those conditions is no surprise.
You used to say it's a clear difference:




> *10-11-2011, 03:48 PM*
> Post: #50
> GBtortoises Offline
> Mediterraneans and more.
> ...



... then pointing out it doesn't matter at all:



GBtortoises said:


> The very simple answer to your question is "NO". It is not necessary to hiberate any tortoise, regardless of species, in captivity. Having done and still doing both, keeping some tortoises active through the winter and allowing others to hibernate, I can absolutely tell you that there is no difference whatsoever between the two in terms of health, activity level and so on. The only difference that I have ever observed is breeding consistency. Those that are hibernated have a more "scheduled" breeding period. *Fertility is the same* between the two as well as everything else.



Being a beginner with only 2 clutches from 2 females, anyway no comparison term for now. It will not matter too much, since I will brumate all the fit tortoises, once they are truly fit, so even less chances to compare brumating vs. non-brumating fertility rates. But it will happen to have such a case from time to time- until now, all my rescue subjects were ADULTS, since they are usually "colected" by people- and the overwintering-breeding part truly interests me at least for improving my general knowledge, and maybe for practical guidance in similar cases.

Just being curious why the *radically different* affirmations in such a short interval- I am just nosy as a Hermanni, not looking for catching people when contradicting themselves and other tricks. Just wanting to know the reason.


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## carnivorouszoo (Jan 4, 2012)

CactusVinnie said:


> CZoo,
> 
> Yes, w- MO is far too wet, but you have options in order to brumate Talison. The simplest one: the fridge. Especially with a single tortoise.
> My RT were too active piglets last year, at this time- I prolonged their active period in order to offer them a short brumation, that was planned to end right around natural awakening date. If forced with enough heat and light, tortoises stay active. For Horsfieldi, it was enough 13*-18*C ambient temperature with good basking area.



Can't use the fridge. I use it for food. I do not have the option of acquiring another and besides, I am not comfortable with it so I choose not to. If he can not brumate naturally on his own, I choose not to do it. The only downside to not brumating that I have found is issues with breeding. Having no intent of ever breeding I doubt I will have issues. So until my vet says I have to do it. I choose not to and am not a horrid owner for making this choice. Nor is anyone else who chooses whatever option works for them. This debate is beginning to play like a broken record and I am done with it. Please respect my choice to not brumate.


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## CactusVinnie (Jan 4, 2012)

> This debate is beginning to play like a broken record and I am done with it. Please respect my choice to not brumate.
> 
> Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/newreply.php?tid=38255#ixzz1iVnoYGDN



No problemo, amigo! But I just don't get it... was it such a pressure on you ? And, btw, some may even have something to extract from that broken record... and personally I respect even your choice to be disrespectful, even if you didn't participate, if that's what you want . Realmente no problemo!


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## GBtortoises (Jan 4, 2012)

*CactusVinnie*-First, I have to agree with quote in the post above: "This debate is beginning to play like a broken record". Second, While you may be absolutely certain of the conditions of your climate (which is the natural range or extremely close to that of the species that you're keeping), I doubt that you are familiar with the many micro-climates of the U.S. as well. Given that it would be hard to insist that natural brumation is absolutely possible everywhere here.

And to clarify my "radically different affirmations" it is simply a case of me typing my thoughts quicker than I was thinking them through-happens often. What I meant by what I said was that neither my year round active or brumating tortoises show any difference in fertility. _But_ my brumating tortoises do mate on a more scheduled timeline based on seasonal changes whereas those that are active year round nest more randomly. If you actually read the entire post the way it was written I already wrote that intended meaning:
"The only difference that I have ever observed is breeding consistency. Those that are hibernated have a more "scheduled" breeding period. Fertility is the same between the two as well as everything else."
It was a case of me using an unintended word. I can understand that it may be confusing, but I have re-affirmed the above, correct quote several times over in other posts.


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## CactusVinnie (Jan 4, 2012)

No, GB, I don't agree with the "broken record". Why? Because it is still- and it always be- something new to find! For instance, finding about your clarification- it was needed, since a serious contradiction would have resulted if not clearly shown here the real sense of your words.

Second: I am quite familiar with the US climates, of course not in microclimate detail. I was a real cacti and fish freak, and studying weather data was one of my interests. It was enough to study Albuquerque microclimates, and it was mind-blowing: three USDA zones for a single city, depending on particular locations!! But that's not the point, since *I was never advocating natural brumation no matter the area*- just *brumation* as a part of the natural cycle. 
In fact, you know that neither myself, I don't let them brumate naturally, just let them go underground, then bringing them in controlled conditions (underground hydrophore concrete chamber). The most important reason- but not the only one- were the rodents we talked about. 
And, as you said about taking great care of the few tortoises we have- you skip brumation to be on the safe side, but neither me let things happen as in the wild for the same reason: regardless if living close to tortoise habitat or in the US, tortoise are not so expendable to take any chances with them.
Only our views on brumation differ, but the care and responsability we feel are the same. I respect those ancient beasts. If you will have a wide look on their ENTIRE areal, you may find something very interesting- let me know when you will find what I mean ! 
In fact, I do have a much greater responsability then you: I live where they live, and I have to work hard for them. The only help I will get in my shy conservation efforts is to became a legal keeper (since I am not yet now, and there is none here!)- a fellow biologist working in the field will facilitate this thing for me. I won't sell a single baby, they will all go back to Dobrogea. Nobody helped me, even with a bag of weeds, not to mention something else- and nobody will. It's 100% benevol work, time-consuming, when having 3 kids, 300 USD monthly revenue and expensive life, and it's Romania out here- a bloody jungle. 
Please note that it is not a joke for me. I am not "rescueing" another one from the wild when one dies. So, I take very seriously tortoise keeping, since it's much more than a hobby, and not even a bit of material reward.


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## Tccarolina (Jan 26, 2012)

Among all us "lurkers" in this debate, I have found it helpful. Yes, these debates get "broken-recordish", but there are still nuggets of info that occur even in the last pages of posts. I suspect that even when animosity rises, the active participants are still secretly building respect for the other side's level of commitment to be responsible and dedicated keepers.

The worst result I think of these long debates is if it results in an active member getting fed-up with the forum, and leaving. So, for all participants, I have valued this exchange, and I have deeper respect for all of the debaters as a result.

For the record, I currently hibernate naturally outdoors for space reasons and to give me a winter break, but my future chelonian keeping is very flexible, and all this info goes into my future decision making.

I think, maybe, it is the highly opinionated individuals who are the ones who are actively changing our hobby for the better, and I mean that as a compliment to both sides here.

If this post seems unnecessary, patronizing, or pointless, it's also my 300th post! WooHoo! ! !


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## ascott (Jan 26, 2012)

Unnecessary, patronizing, pointless---none of these descriptives apply to your post....not in my opinion anyways 

Happy 300th [/code]


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## Jacqui (Jan 26, 2012)

carnivorouszoo said:


> Can't use the fridge. I use it for food. I do not have the option of acquiring another and besides, I am not comfortable with it so I choose not to. If he can not brumate naturally on his own, I choose not to do it. The only downside to not brumating that I have found is issues with breeding. Having no intent of ever breeding I doubt I will have issues. So until my vet says I have to do it. I choose not to and am not a horrid owner for making this choice. Nor is anyone else who chooses whatever option works for them. This debate is beginning to play like a broken record and I am done with it. Please respect my choice to not brumate.



You have the right to choose not to hibernate or brumate your tortoises and should never be made to feel less of a keeper to do so. The key to me, is YOUR NOT COMFORTABLE with doing it. So you should not do it. You would be less of a keeper to me, if you were to do something your not comfortable with or sure of.


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## carnivorouszoo (Jan 26, 2012)

CactusVinnie said:


> > This debate is beginning to play like a broken record and I am done with it. Please respect my choice to not brumate.
> >
> > Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/newreply.php?tid=38255#ixzz1iVnoYGDN
> 
> ...



I do not see how I was disrespectful, simply asked for respect. Why push your beliefs on someone else? Brumation is a choice in captivity. Other than the implication that I somehow disrespected you, or anyone else, I'm afraid I don't understand the rest of your post. Sorry.

To the poster above me, many thanks. Its one thing to know what you are doing and/or have an experienced person to help you, but to risk the lives that depend on you because someone somewhere says you are bad if you don't is reckless. There is no one near me that brumate their reptiles of any kind. I have asked my vet and they do not recommend it in captivity because of 1) the climate and risk of power outages and 2)the lack of in depth, reliable studies on the pros and cons of doing it. His words not mine. My RT is still very active, healthy and happy. My Bearded Dragon had a short siesta this winter, but they are easier to let sleep than a tort who requires lower temps. With a beardie, I simply had to leave the lights off while keeping the temp a bit over 60. Its way more involved for a tort. With noone to be here in person helping me, I'd rather have an awake tort than a dead one.


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## jamestaylor18 (Jan 29, 2012)

I hibernate my horsefields using the fridge method. They are on their second year now! I find from October the hardly come out anyway despite temps, lighting etc therefore I might as well hibernate them!


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## ascott (Jan 29, 2012)

Carnivorouszoo....you know what to do to allow your beadie to brumate....not complicated nor involved, right. I know what to do to allow a tortoise to brumate...not complicated nor involved.

My only reason for this parallel is to point out something is usually scary until you know what you are doing...then that scary thing is no longer complicated nor involved.

People will always have their own take on the new and unfamiliar...we are after all, only human.....


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## Jacqui (Jan 29, 2012)

It's not fear of the unknown nor something new that stops me from hibernating my tortoises. Fact is, I hibernated a Desert tortoise for several years using the box in the closet method. For several years I hibernated the Russians (and other species) in the fridge. For well over 15 years, I have hibernated outdoors "naturally" (as in letting them decide the when and where) many Ornate and three toes box turtles, paints, red eared sliders, and snappers. 

After years of doing this and by several different methods and several different species, along with talking with others, I have made the choice to only hibernate my snappers. The reason? My knowledge and experience (along with those of other experienced keepers) made me decide the risks were not out weighing the possible negative factors. 

While I believe in keeping my tortoises as naturally as possible, this is just one area where I go against the natural way. I never lost any animals during the actual hibernation, but did loose two box turtles and a Red eared slider shortly after they emerged. Was it because of the hibernation? Who really can tell? 

I simply care too much and have too much invested in my current animals, to ever take a chance on something for which I am not seeing a true need for. For example, my Russians still exhibit the same behavior and breed just as well for me without hibernating them.

So this is where I stand on hibernation. If you want to hibernate your animals, that's your choice. If you choose, like me, not to, then that's fine too. We each have to look at the facts and go from there. There is no right way or wrong way.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Feb 1, 2012)

Jacqui said:


> It's not fear of the unknown nor something new that stops me from hibernating my tortoises. Fact is, I hibernated a Desert tortoise for several years using the box in the closet method. For several years I hibernated the Russians (and other species) in the fridge. For well over 15 years, I have hibernated outdoors "naturally" (as in letting them decide the when and where) many Ornate and three toes box turtles, paints, red eared sliders, and snappers.
> 
> After years of doing this and by several different methods and several different species, along with talking with others, I have made the choice to only hibernate my snappers. The reason? *My knowledge and experience (along with those of other experienced keepers) made me decide the risks were not out weighing the possible negative factors. *
> 
> ...



Well stated!


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## CactusVinnie (May 10, 2012)

Although over 1 month late, I wanted to let you know that all my tortoises came just fine after a good hibernation: from 11 November to 20 March. 

Hatchlings of native T. ibera were just fine, as 2-4 years old Greek origin Boettgeri. All those small guys are now visible heavier and growth lines appeared. I would say one word about their state: *thriving* !!

Cheers!


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## Terry Allan Hall (May 10, 2012)

CactusVinnie said:


> Although over 1 month late, I wanted to let you know that all my tortoises came just fine after a good hibernation: from 11 November to 20 March.
> 
> Hatchlings of native T. ibera were just fine, as 2-4 years old Greek origin Boettgeri. All those small guys are now visible heavier and growth lines appeared. I would say one word about their state: *thriving* !!
> 
> Cheers!



As are my tortoises/Ornate boxies, who spent their winters chowing down and *thriving*...both methods are viable.


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## ascott (May 10, 2012)

Hey Vinnie....

Happy to hear the news....it is always wonderful to hear all is good....the CDTs here all went in and out of brumation safely...YAAAAYYYYY ....so enjoying them up and about....check in again.

CHEERS!


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## CactusVinnie (Sep 3, 2012)

*YES, IT IS!*

http://academicpublishingplatforms....imical_standardization_of_tortezin_pp.2-8.pdf

EDIT: the link did not work when previwed or posted ... just Google search "tortezin testudo horsfieldi" and it is the first find: "BIOCHEMICAL STANDARDIZATION OF TORTEZIN, A NOVEL
IMMUNOSTIMULATOR FROM THE TORTOISE BLOOD CELLS".
If you can put the link in a manner that works, please do it- and that PDF is worthy to be saved, anyway.

I hope that the *absence* of some very important substances in non-hibernating tortoises, compared to normal hibernating tortoises IS a "scientific proof" that hibernation is essential for a complete biochemical configuration and a fully functional endocrine sistem, metabolism and immunity. If an animal cannot produce such important compounds when overwintered, but can do that when hibernated, I think it is enough proof.

Of course, I expect The Usual Deniers  to reply that it demonstrates nothing but a small change, not essential, but I will ask them in that case to READ that it is a miraculous complex of substances, essential ones for the hardiness of a tortoise, not to be overlooked. Their environment built them to be hardy, and their blood tells a tale.
Yes, tortoises maybe still breed and live, but here is *the proof* that they are BIOCHEMICALLY INCOMPLETE compared to what they usually are, if denied hibernation.

In the case that T.U.D. accept the importance of hibernation for Horsfieldi only- _"you know, it is the species that lives underground for 9 months, but it is the only one doing that etc."_- I also expect them to keep saying it was not demonstrated for *other* tortoise species, so not essential for these species... 
If so, I have nothing to say anymore, it is a lost cause- I accidentally stumbled upon that article, but I am pretty sure I will not find again studies for the other temperate species confirming the same thing, just by other accident or random search . 
Then what? If next study will be for Hermanni, that will not prove nothing for Boettgeri, for instance, even less for Ibera, I think... If done for Boettgeri and Ibera too, and proof appear, then it would be _"ok, but the study was done on Bulgarian Boettgeri and Ibera, and demonstrates NOTHING for other ecotypes"_- all that proving that non-believers will be non-believers, even with the proof in front of them. 

It is only the beginning, and that research it was done just from medical reasons, not to find how a tortoise can be kept optimally in captivity conditions... so I am pretty sure it would be the only proof for some time, at least for a good while... 

Conclusion: keep tortoises as they were intended for- *outdoors*, learn "how to", and do it when you checked all the requirements for hibernation. I am not pushing my opinion, make you risk your tortoises lives, but I just tried to explain that what is natural, even not yet proved, is better than any limited human knowledge or experience. 

Sooner or later, all the Nature ways will be explained, but it would be wise from our part to understand that *from now*, not questioning every aspect until proved. How many human life-times should we have, to prove every thing that Nature did in millions of years of evolution? The knowledge is in front of us, it is ridiculous to wait 1000 generations to accumulate a knowledge that can be simply *accepted* using common sense, this way allowing us to save time and avoid some of the consequences of our ignorance.


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## kerimarie (Sep 3, 2012)

I don't wish to hibernate my tortoise, however, this is what is required for my breed which is a marginated, therefore I educated myself fully and hibernate my tortie xxx


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## Terry Allan Hall (Sep 3, 2012)

CactusVinnie said:


> *YES, IT IS!*
> 
> http://academicpublishingplatforms....imical_standardization_of_tortezin_pp.2-8.pdf
> 
> ...



Quite familiar with that "study", Fabian... 

Brumation is *absolutely optional *and pet tortoises live full and very healthy lives w/o it.


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## CactusVinnie (Sep 3, 2012)

Terry, it is a quite new "study" _(BTW, why quotation marks? Sounds like a bad joke to you or what?)_, from 2011! Either you may mistaken it with something else, or you are guilty as charged for not showing it to us !

"Full" lives- really doubt- as I said, if they live 70, it is quite a lot for us, but considering that they can reach 150, that means their live is reduced to a half only.

You cannot discard a study simply by using quotation marks and repeating that it's optional. It is just not possible. 
Facts were asked as proof- here's the facts! Blood lacking some compounds when non-hibernating, meaning their bodies cannot synthesize them when active all year. I already said that the fact overwintering doesn't kill them, neither make them sterile, is something different- but her's the proof that it's not ok either.

Even the study is not complete- and it is not the case for Tortezin stuff only (many compounds acting in synergy)...

We have failed to isolate its â€œactive principlesâ€, that is, one or more components responsible for its effect. Various kinds of purification caused reduction of its biological activity hundred fold. In our opinion, unique biological effects of Tortezin depend on specific ratio of its major and minor components making it similar to ginseng.

... it was demonstrated that it has unquestionable biostimulating qualities:

Studies on model animal systems (rats, mice and rabbits) demonstrated good hemo- and
immune-stimulating, anti-anemic and gerontoprotective effect of Tortezin.


... and producing these substances is STRICTLY conditioned by long winter sleep, respecting the natural cycles:

For 10 months a year it hibernates. For 2 spring months the animals has to replenish reserves, to accumulate new ones and to mate (Lagarde et al., 2003). *This is the time* when the tortoiseâ€™s blood contains many biogenic stimulators. The blood preparation from *non-hibernating*, active for 12 months a year tortoises living in the terrarium is *lacking* these substances.

So, even incomplete and still with lots of questions left unanswered, regardless of their medical or commercial interests, the study contains this last affirmation, that has nothing to do with "Hibernation debate" on our forum or any hibernation debate... it is just a fact: *non-hibernators lack that "something". *

Nothing unclear, but I admire your Texas stubborness ! I could have use that quality if I had it, at least in some respects, I am sure it paid you sometimes in realising good stuff, but it will never be a solid argument that overwintering is OK and hibernation is dangerous .


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## Terry Allan Hall (Sep 4, 2012)

CactusVinnie said:


> Terry, it is a quite new "study" _(BTW, why quotation marks? Sounds like a bad joke to you or what?)_, from 2011! Either you may mistaken it with something else, or you are guilty as charged for not showing it to us !
> 
> "Full" lives- really doubt- as I said, if they live 70, it is quite a lot for us, but considering that they can reach 150, that means their live is reduced to a half only.
> 
> ...



Vinnie/Fabian, brumation (tortoises do not hibernate) is not _*required*_, otherwise there would be no non-brumating sub-species of _T. graeca_...bruimation (and estivation, in the case of _A. horsfieldi_) is merely a Testudo's adaptation to adverse weather conditions...when a Testudo doesn't encounter said adverse weather conditins, it doesn't brumate. 

Captive tortoises (that recieve good care) appreciably outlive wild tortoises, as a rule, even when over-wintered. In captivity, a tortoise can live, occasionally, to 150, true...otoh, in the wild, they never do, because they succumb to a great many things, predation from carnivores being but one.

BTW, captive bears do not hibernate when kept in the tropical zone zoos, yet also still live full lives, almost always appreciably longer than in the wild (30+, as oppopsed to 12-15).


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## CactusVinnie (Sep 4, 2012)

Terry, it is about TEMPERATE tortoises only. These ones have special adaptations compared to their mild climate relatives. A non-brumating African Graeca will never be able to endure the same things that a Romanian Ibera or Horsfieldi can do, and I suppose that freezing solid as hatchlings is one of those things. 
Even if that Graeca wants to behave accordingly when encountering adverse conditions like hard freeze, it will not succeed. It is adapted to cope the adverse conditions specific to its environment, and long, freezing winters just kills them. 

You have no source to affirm that captives outlive their wild conspecifics!!! Even a captive can live for decades, and you cannot have infos on lifespan on wild tortoises to simply say "captives live longer"! Even you count Timothy or the other Ibera from the Crimean War, both lived in England, OUTDOORS! 
And death by predation doesn't count, we are talking about brumation/hibernation. The same for extreme events that don't fit the usual seasonal schedule- as floods, or snowless, windy and extreme cold winters etc.
Death by freezing solid for a month during a "one in 100 years winter" doesn't account as "death caused by brumation", I suppose we agree here. *I just advocated standard brumation for our captives, not replicating extreme, wiping-out natural events!!!*

Comparing mammals to reptiles is the same as you say in the US, "orange to apples". 
A meat-eating Innuit subjected to that harsh climate will not live too long, compared to a Mediteranean that eats fish, fruits, vegetables, olive oil and dandelion/cichory salads. The same as for comparing wild vs captive animals- well-cared for captives always have a lot of stress factors removed; for a mammal, enduring cold is quite a challenge, and that puts a lot of stress on the animal metabolism. 
In temperate reptiles, as in all temperate poikilotherms, is different: cold slows down the "burning" and prolonge life.

It still remains the question: if that "tortezin" complex is absent or biochemically incomplete in non-brumated subjects... isn't that a proof that there is something wrong- not immediate life-threatening, but wrong- when temperate tortoise are denied brumation? 

People can live and procreate while having diabetes or other blood-related illnesses- they still live, thing that can make an hypothetical human-pet owner to say _"correct blood-parameters are only optional, my humans live and I obtained viable offsprings from them; why bother to provide them natural food and opportunities to exercise, we anyway cannot keep them trying to replicate nature- as keeping them as pets is the first unnatural thing we do!"_


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## Terry Allan Hall (Sep 4, 2012)

CactusVinnie said:


> Terry, it is about TEMPERATE tortoises only. These ones have special adaptations compared to their mild climate relatives. A non-brumating African Graeca will never be able to endure the same things that a Romanian Ibera or Horsfieldi can do, and I suppose that freezing solid as hatchlings is one of those things.
> Even if that Graeca wants to behave accordingly when encountering adverse conditions like hard freeze, it will not succeed. It is adapted to cope the adverse conditions specific to its environment, and long, freezing winters just kills them.
> 
> You have no source to affirm that captives outlive their wild conspecifics!!! Even a captive can live for decades, and you cannot have infos on lifespan on wild tortoises to simply say "captives live longer"! Even you count Timothy or the other Ibera from the Crimean War, both lived in England, OUTDOORS!
> ...



And I keep trying to explain to you that brumation is ABSOLUTELY optional. There is still no reason why anyone MUST brumate ANY tortoise and quite a few reasons why brumating a pet tortoise is unwise. 

As to why such obvious information offends your tender sensibilities is a matter I prefer not to explore...

And yes, I know first-hand about Diabetes, specifically Type II...about 15 years of first-hand experience.


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## CactusVinnie (Sep 4, 2012)

Well, Terry, that while me too, I am trying to explain that while brumation can be optional, it is not also optimal; a reason to do it being their longterm endocrine normality (health, immunity, hardiness).
Reasons not to do are being explained: low fitness level or illness. Unwise is also brumating an incorrect ID animal (Morrocan vs Ibera) or not knowing what a brumating animal needs. 

You can explore in peace, I horripilated only 5 shrinks, but they were the sensitive type, I think . And yes, I have my tender sensibilities about what's natural and common sense ... some things may offend them a little, especially when it is so easy to be natural... but not that much... and, regarding our topic, brumation flows by itself for an outdoor animal. 

Wish you health and strength!


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## Terry Allan Hall (Sep 5, 2012)

CactusVinnie said:


> Well, Terry, that while me too, I am trying to explain that while brumation can be optional, it is not also optimal; a reason to do it being their longterm endocrine normality (health, immunity, hardiness).
> Reasons not to do are being explained: low fitness level or illness. Unwise is also brumating an incorrect ID animal (Morrocan vs Ibera) or not knowing what a brumating animal needs.
> 
> You can explore in peace, I horripilated only 5 shrinks, but they were the sensitive type, I think . And yes, I have my tender sensibilities about what's natural and common sense ... some things may offend them a little, especially when it is so easy to be natural... but not that much... and, regarding our topic, brumation flows by itself for an outdoor animal.
> ...



To be honest with you (and I hope I can indeed, be honest with you), the only reason I don't ignore your nonsensical prattling-ons about on the subject of "hibernating" tortoises is that your "advice" might lead one of our less experienced members to inadvertantly injure or kill their pet(s)...

Wishing you health and wisdom.


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## CactusVinnie (Sep 5, 2012)

Terry, that is a very rude bullshit from your part, and I can honnestly say that you really disappointed me. You are much over the limits with thatâ€¦ I can understand a joke, even a Russian oneâ€¦ I can take irony like a champ, if I deserved itâ€¦ but being patronized and insulted by a person less informed than me- because thatâ€™s what you are, after all, no offense- itâ€™s too much for me. 

Constant contrary replies to all my brumation advices did not bothered me, even you played the same record. Until a point, it's ok, but if don't find ok anymore the way you referred to my advices, as _cretine ideas that can lead to innocent tortoise death, if followed_, but thanks God, there is Terry saving the situation and exposing the killer ignorance... be serious, and be decent, since the ignorant is the one speaking by its mouth, while the other speaks from experience and reason. Who's who, in our story??

Keep remember that I am not quite in the field, but rather on the profi side compared to you- being an ecologist. As I said it before- and softening it as much as I could- you barely entered the real tortoise world quite recently and after "40 years of keeping Boettgeri" you did not managed to obtain NOTHING, not even accidental babies, that even some beginners can obtain, not general knowledge on tortoises- since your stereotypical poor arguments are not by far knowledge and 99,9% of your (MANY!!!) advices are nothing but a â€œhuge pile of crapâ€- words learned from prof. Terry, referring once to my posts- if you feel offended, BTW... 

I am very sorry, you are older than me, but that is not giving you the right to insult or patronize- and that not even in a crushing intelligent manner, wich I would acceptâ€¦ but itâ€™s not the case. Instead, it is an obligation to be wiser than me, and practice the ancient advice â€œdonâ€™t open your mouth if you are not sure that what you will say is better than silenceâ€. Problem isâ€¦ you are always sure, and you were never able to bring a real, true reasoning reply in any discussion we had. Or you had with anyone else, in fact.

Remember that post?

I gave you last days 20 minutes from my time... searching through your first messages- those usually are the most savurous and spicy ones, because they show the initial, real level of knowledge of many forum-Barracudas, wich prove to be, in fact, Guppies  . 

You are, in fact, a 2010 beginner, just like me! Well, of course I didn't kept tortoises as long as you did, but talking here about the other level- the true tortoise keeping, wich it seems that we both started in the same year.
*You asked elementary questions* about food, maturity size and lots of elementary simple things! What breeding? What hatchlings? Incubating technique? What old knowledge- wich is not by far the same with having decades of tortoise keeping!! 
So, nothing bad in being a beginner- no matter the age, the will to know is important. But it's embarassing, in my opinion, to be that active in putting me down with quite unfriendly words (although no vulgarity in your language), while there is a very narrow chance that I could know a bit more than you know. 

(EDIT 5.Sept.2012- in fact, you still donâ€™t know too much even by nowâ€¦only your confidence skyrocketed after having that load of EMPTY messagesâ€¦but the level of knowledge is the same, you being too busy worshiping yourself and your divine, spontane wisdom)

There is no offence/irony in my words- after all, I am a bloody ecology graduate with a master degree, I love tortoises, I had lots of time (as a simple school-teacher) to study them (and that's what I did for maybe hundreds of hours on the Net), including visits in their habitat (4 in 15 years)---> all that giving me an advantage over you- call it unfair if you want.

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Is-Hibernation-Absolutely-Required?page=7#ixzz25bCLCBk7
......................................................................................................

*â€œFeed him and let him stay awake...hibernation is absolutely optional in European tortoises (and most others).
And, if you don't know what you're doing exactly, it can be deadly.â€ *

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Tort-not-wanting-to-hibernate#ixzz25b7Xe4oD

Yes, Terry, I second that- ignorance is deadly. Practice what you preach, if you really mean it. 
Concerning me, I wanted to be another voice that, knowing what he says, from *first-hand experience*, offers that experience about a more natural and normal way to keep a captive animal- tortoise or not, to other hobbysts, as I once received good advices too. 
My- and some other's- experiences in brumation topic are useful information. In fact, we just explain what is to be done a thing that is horrifying you and never done by you. It's simple: I know more than you about that. Period. You should not speak about what you did not even tried!
Losing animals during brumation would make me learn first, than giving advices. But lost *none*, no adult, no hatchling- mines or received, no juvenile. 

Bottom line: 
from the two of us, I am the one speaking from experience, and you the other one. Please try to beat me with what you learned and realised in tortoises, then I will came by myself asking your advice. 
Until that...

DISAPPOINTMENT.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Sep 5, 2012)

CactusVinnie said:


> Terry, that is a very rude bullshit from your part, and I can honnestly say that you really disappointed me. You are much over the limits with thatâ€¦ I can understand a joke, even a Russian oneâ€¦ I can take irony like a champ, if I deserved itâ€¦ but being patronized and insulted by a person less informed than me- because thatâ€™s what you are, after all, no offense- itâ€™s too much for me.
> 
> Constant contrary replies to all my brumation advices did not bothered me, even you played the same record. Until a point, it's ok, but if don't find ok anymore the way you referred to my advices, as _cretine ideas that can lead to innocent tortoise death, if followed_, but thanks God, there is Terry saving the situation and exposing the killer ignorance... be serious, and be decent, since the ignorant is the one speaking by its mouth, while the other speaks from experience and reason. Who's who, in our story??
> 
> ...



Sorry if my being honest w/ you is disappointing, but giving out dangerously bad advice, that could kill some of my favorite creatures on Earth, and bring grief to their owners, particularily those who don't yet know better, just can't be ignored. 

Do try to understand, Fabian...*it's nothing personal* from this end.


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