# Dog Poop



## October (Jun 28, 2011)

I took the hatchlings out to a new part of the yard for some sun and exercise this evening, and they, of course, made bee lines for the dog poop. Now, I've done some searching around, and it seems the answer is always "Dog poop is bad because of medications, bad food sources and parasites."

Our Great Dane gets no meds whatsoever. She is also on a strict BARF (Biologically Appropriate Raw Food) diet, which consists of raw meat, fats and bones. That's it. Well, unless you count the random CheezIt she finds on the floor. 

So, we've ruled out meds and chemicals/grains/fillers/standard dry dog food garbage. Is there any proof that dry old dog poop has harmful parasites in it or is it just assumed? If any of you have ever done a raw dog diet, you know by dry old dog poop, I mean it turns white and powdery within 2 days. We normally just mow or stomp them and they disappear. 

Also, based on her diet, the poop will be very very high in calcium (and conversely the grass growing in the yard). I know this is an unusual dog poop situation but I'd enjoy some discussion on it. 

So... thoughts?


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## Laura (Jun 28, 2011)

probably high in Protein too. Either build a seperate yard or clean it up before letting the torts out. 
What parasites or junk is in the dog feces,, may not hurt the dog,, but why subject your torts to it?


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## Angi (Jun 28, 2011)

My only thought is YUCK eating poop is bad, but that is just my thought. I have nothing to back it up.


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## kale315 (Jun 28, 2011)

When in doubt, don't risk it. Just spray the hose when the dogs some doing the deed.


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## Angi (Jun 29, 2011)

No...scoop it up throw it away then hose it down.


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## October (Jun 29, 2011)

Well, yes, I don't let them get at it, it squicks me out. Nor was I looking for what to do about the poop. What I wanted to know was is there any basis for 'dog poop is bad'? Real true evidence. 

Torts are very good at understanding what they need and don't need, and we all know that they love poop of almost any sort. It seems to be an evolutionary adaptation to eat the droppings of carnivores because it's loaded with bio-available calcium. It is true that most dogs take heartworm medications, and don't actually eat raw bones, so it would not be safe. But where is this idea that dog feces has bad bacteria in it coming from? From what I've found, tortoises can not get parvo or corona, and already carry salmonella to an extent. So, other than a variety of worms, which both the dog and torts are free from, I'm not understanding where this idea came from.


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## dmmj (Jun 29, 2011)

I know a lot of people say "tortoises know what is good and bad for them" Then I think of all the stories I hear of sulcatas eating dry wall, plastic bags, ( personal experience) Mardi Gras beads and more. I would say while it is beneficial for them to eat their own poop ( nutrients and beneficiary parasites) I can't honestly think of any benefit to them eating dog poop. it may not harm them, but I certainly don't see a benefit.

My 2 cents (though in this economy that makes it worth about .5 cents now)


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## GBtortoises (Jun 29, 2011)

I wouldn't allow or encourage tortoises to eat dog feces or any other feces for that matter, even their own. If they are constantly eating their own feces there may very well be an important nutrient missing from their regular diet. There might be some truth to the believe that tortoises eat other tortoises feces to gain certain digestive bacteria. This has always been a believe with newly hatched tortoises. Yet I've raised several hatchlings that have never come in contact with an adult during the developmental part of their live and have been just fine, in fact very healthy. I have never witnessed any of my own tortoises, young to adult, eating their own or other tortoises feces. Tortoises are opportunistic feeders and will eat just about anything they believe could be food, some of which is not (food). Based on all the research out there, that I am aware of, never has it been recommended that feces be part of their regular diet.


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## October (Jun 29, 2011)

Thanks for the replies guys. I think this is going around in circles.


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## Yvonne G (Jun 29, 2011)

I know that tortoises are opportunity feeders, but in my opinion, they eat non-food items because they are lacking something in their diet... to get trace minerals and vitamins that they might not otherwise be getting. I have found that if I see a baby eating the substrate, and if I add Miner-all (by sticky tongue farms) to their food, they stop eating the substrate.

I think that when you hear about dog poop being bad for tortoises its usually because the type of tortoise that eats it isn't supposed to have animal protein. And way back in the dark ages, it was thought that too much animal protein caused pyramiding.


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## Angi (Jun 29, 2011)

My motto is "If it stinks, don't eat it" I hate it when mu husband makes boiled eggs. But what Yvonne said is interesting. The idea still makes me want to throw up. What about eating moss ? what could that mean they need. This is still kind of on topic isn't it?


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## Whinhill (Jun 30, 2011)

Eating dog poop isn't good in my opinion (I'm a lower vertebrate parasitologist) many reasons, Ivermectin drug residues from worming treatments for one (Ivermectin is fatal to tortoises). I'm not sure there are any huge dietary benefits for a tortoise eating dog poo (or any mammal poo), but there is a big risk of them picking up parasites. Many parasites can live in dead end hosts (the wrong host to complete the life cycle) where they can cause serious health problems (e.g. Anisakis or the seal worm in humans). The risk of Toxascaris getting into a tortoises from dog poo is quite high and I suspect that would be an expensive vet bill at least if not a blind or badly debilitated tortoise.


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## dmmj (Jun 30, 2011)

Angi said:


> My motto is "If it stinks, don't eat it"


I was gonna make a comment about british food, but decided against it.


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## Laura (Jun 30, 2011)

another thought,, OT.. do you not have Heartworm Mosquitos where you live? your dogs should be on some sort of preventative. but maybe its too dry there for Mosquitos??


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## Whinhill (Jun 30, 2011)

dmmj said:


> Angi said:
> 
> 
> > My motto is "If it stinks, don't eat it"
> ...



Clearly you've never had spotted **** 

I'm a Brit BTW



Laura said:


> another thought,, OT.. do you not have Heartworm Mosquitos where you live? your dogs should be on some sort of preventative. but maybe its too dry there for Mosquitos??



And that often has Ivemectin as an ingredient, and in quite high doses, as it is so safe for mammals


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## dmmj (Jun 30, 2011)

Whinhill said:


> dmmj said:
> 
> 
> > Angi said:
> ...


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## October (Jun 30, 2011)

Whinhill said:


> Eating dog poop isn't good in my opinion (I'm a lower vertebrate parasitologist) many reasons, Ivermectin drug residues from worming treatments for one (Ivermectin is fatal to tortoises). I'm not sure there are any huge dietary benefits for a tortoise eating dog poo (or any mammal poo), but there is a big risk of them picking up parasites. Many parasites can live in dead end hosts (the wrong host to complete the life cycle) where they can cause serious health problems (e.g. Anisakis or the seal worm in humans). The risk of Toxascaris getting into a tortoises from dog poo is quite high and I suspect that would be an expensive vet bill at least if not a blind or badly debilitated tortoise.



There we go, something other than "there might be bad bacteria". Toxascaris is a roundworm variety, yeah? Yes, it just looked it up. Eggs are viable 3-6 days after leaving the host animal and adults are 3-4 inches in length. That's something easy enough to spot visually, so in theory any animal keeper worth their salt should not have an unknown toxascaris issue?



Laura said:


> another thought,, OT.. do you not have Heartworm Mosquitos where you live? your dogs should be on some sort of preventative. but maybe its too dry there for Mosquitos??



There is usually between 1-4 cases reported yearly for my area. We do have mosquitoes for a short time period, but for the most part it is too dry. 


I do just want to add another disclaimer here. I'm not trying to prove that torts should eat dog poop or anything like that, and I don't let mine eat any to the best of my ability. What I'm trying to figure out is if there an actual basis to poop=bad, or if it's more of commonly held belief like keeping torts dry, or feeding monkey chow.


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## Whinhill (Jul 1, 2011)

Well the adult worms are 3-4 inches long, but they live in the intestine and are rarely seen, usually when the population of worms in the gut is large and some adults abandon ship by leaving via the mouth or cloacae (which is kind of stressful for the animal and the owner.)

The eggs, which are shed in the feces, are a few hundred microns long and virtually impossible to see without a good microscope. 

Also Toxocara is only one of 100's of parasites passed on in feces.


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## October (Jul 1, 2011)

Very true. In general, you wont start seeing worms until the infestation is really bad. 

What about the pH difference? If I remember right, dogs have a very very low pH in the stomach and GI tract in general. Does anyone know what the pH of a torts GI tract? It could play a part in what is transmittable or not.


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## Whinhill (Jul 1, 2011)

Parasite eggs and cysts are usually very resistant to pH they have to survive the stomach acids of their host (most vertebrates that have stomach have an acid stomach as this help hydrolyze proteins. The resistance of parasite eggs to the environment is legendary the eggs of pig round worm (Ascaris) have been know to survive for 40 years + in 10% formalin (the stuff they preserve tissues in in museums and pathlabs) and still be able to infect their host.


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## SnakeyeZ (Jul 1, 2011)

Good or bad - I would not be allowing my tortoises eat feces. Mine don't show any interest in feces that I have seen so I don't worry too much.


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## ascott (Jul 1, 2011)

Yeah....my guys are not dookie divers, thank goodness....ewwww


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## Tccarolina (Jul 9, 2011)

October,
I would guess eating animal feces in the wild is an opportunistic encounter to get loads of calcium and other trace nutrients. Once the feces are gone its back to the usual grub of weeds. In your yard, the feces are much more common, and the tortoises probably don't have the instinct to only eat them on occasion. Probably, your tortoise would only eat the dog poop if he could.
Sort of like if we were cave men, the occasional bag of potato chips would be a valuable source of additional calories. Here in our time, we don't need those extra calories, but we don't have the sense to stop!

I think you're probably right about the actual risk of harm. Your dogs poop is probably similar to what a wild tortoise would find, and the majority of parasites that might live in a warm blooded canine are probably not going to survive in an ectotherm like your tortoise. As long as you or your tortoise limits his consumption to occasional, it MIGHT be safe, and perhaps very beneficial. The risk is that you don't know, and if your tortoise starts developing health problems, there's no way for you to know whether the dog poop caused the issue or if something else is responsible.

Good luck!
Steve


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## Saloli (Jul 13, 2011)

Oh speaking of parasites the human or beef tape worm is very common in cattle in the U.S. so I wouldn't give dogs or turtles any raw meat from cattle. But thats just me I like my cow well chared.


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