# Losing all of my tortoises



## tracey.p (Feb 7, 2015)

I posted on here a while ago regarding my Sulcata tortoise Flower, who wasn't doing so great, (probably as a result of being dehydrated at the pet shop I bought her from) and I received some great advice on how to best house my more tropical torts (closed chamber set up). Since setting her up in a vivarium, aswell as my other Sulcata Crash and my Leopard tortoise, Pokey, I have lost her, (she died in the night) which was wholly unexpected since she started getting better. Pokey and Crash beforehand were healthy, happy little torts who were very greedy and active, and since being moved into a vivarium are sluggish and withdrawn. I would like to point out that all the temps are perfect, it is very humid, they have two shallow water bowls each, and three hides, as well as fake leaves and plants to hide in; the substrate is coco noir. and they are in separate vivarium's. I have recently spent over £200 at the vets trying to save Crash, who has metabolic bone disease and Pokey is heading the exact same way - I will probably lose him soon. MBD is nearly always caused by not enough UVB and not enough calcium- I would like to point out that I sprinkle a supplement on their diet of freshly cut weeds and grass everyday, and they are under 12% UVB strip lights and a heat bulb on a thermostat. I have ran out of ideas of what to do, I am literally waiting to lose them. It is so frustrating and I sometimes wish I would have just left Pokey and Crash in their plastic runs, with a good old solar glo mercury vapour lamp instead - because that's when they were healthiest. The pain of watching your baby tortoises slip away before you is the hardest thing in the world - especially when everything is how is should be (apparently) in a closed chamber style set up. I have no idea what I am ding wrong anymore, and I will not accept that they all had 'hatchling failure syndrome' since two of them were from a very good breeder, and they have always had access to water, hides and cooler spots if need be. My advice to anyone would be to listen to your tort and maybe the set way of doing things is not always best - it only leads to heartbreak.


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## turtlemanfla88 (Feb 7, 2015)

I see you live in England ,but I had adults and babies make a 360 turn around when i gave them natural sunlight. This has worked for me in 60F or above even if it was only for one hour a couple times a week.


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## HLogic (Feb 7, 2015)

Perhaps the UVB lights are too far from the torts to provide enough radiation. Have you measured the UVB emitted?


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## tortdad (Feb 7, 2015)

You say temps are right but what are the temps and what are you using to monitor the temps? If it's genetic or from a bad start with the pet shop then there's nothing you can do but try and see. 

Typically we see this with someone who's temps are not right. High humidity with low temps causes this. How sure are you that your temps are correct?


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## tracey.p (Feb 7, 2015)

I have a temp gun, a thermostat to control the temps and they are on a timer, right under the bulb is 100-110, warm side is high eighties to low nineties, cooler side is high seventies, I check sometimes twice a day. The strip lights are the highest UVB we could buy, and are only around 30cm off of the vivarium floor. I don't know whether it is too cold to take them out for an hour a day? It has been snowing here, but maybe on a warmer day? I have thought about it. I am just desperate now.


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## Odin's Gma (Feb 7, 2015)

Do you have any south facing windows? I am in the northern united states and it is far too cold to even consider taking our sulcata outside, so in addition to his lights we let him hang out in our dining room in front of our south facing deck doors at least a couple afternoons a week. It always get him extra active.


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## tracey.p (Feb 7, 2015)

Oh, and I also spray into the viv multiple times a day, and have sphagnum moss in all of the sleeping areas. How do I measure the UVB?


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## tracey.p (Feb 7, 2015)

I do, I will try putting him in as much extra light as I can this weekend


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## Odin's Gma (Feb 7, 2015)

Just make sure you have a safe enclosure for him to roam when you do. We used to just put him in a box, but now we have our extra planting inserts there and let him hang out in those so he can snack and get real sun.


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## johnsonnboswell (Feb 7, 2015)

Why not try changing back to the mercury vapor light.


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## TortsNTurtles (Feb 7, 2015)

I am sorry for your loss. My heart breaks for you. I hope they pull through.


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## HLogic (Feb 7, 2015)

tracey.p said:


> How do I measure the UVB?



Not to be trite but with a UVB meter. This is the one I have: https://www.solarmeter.com/model62.html
Consider joining Yahoo's UVB Meter Owner's group. I was able to pick one up for $80 USD (~ 53 £) through one of the members there.


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## Yvonne G (Feb 7, 2015)

I'm so sorry you're having this problem. My suggestion was going to be the same as what johnsonbosswell suggested: put the MVB back.

Sometimes a drastic change is hard on tortoises. It might be a good idea to go back to the old way of taking care of them, but try to cover the habitat.


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## phebe121 (Feb 7, 2015)

Sorry for your loss I keep my temp at 85 cool and 98 to 105 basking and I use coconut coir and I just poor water on it and mix it up anything below 80 they can't digest food


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## Heather H (Feb 7, 2015)

I'm so sorry for your loss. Praying that your other two get well soon.


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## wellington (Feb 7, 2015)

Odin's Gma said:


> Do you have any south facing windows? I am in the northern united states and it is far too cold to even consider taking our sulcata outside, so in addition to his lights we let him hang out in our dining room in front of our south facing deck doors at least a couple afternoons a week. It always get him extra active.



Although the sun light will perk up a tortoise, at least it does mine, the glass the sun is shining through is blocking the uvb, so don't think he is getting any extra uvb by you setting him in front of the windows. Uvb also does not go through screen, at least very little of it.


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## wellington (Feb 7, 2015)

So sorry,for your loss and this trouble. I would do the same as suggested as far as gong back to the old enclosure and lighting. I wish you the very best. I so hope they can pull through for you.


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## Odin's Gma (Feb 7, 2015)

wellington said:


> Although the sun light will perk up a tortoise, at least it does mine, the glass the sun is shining through is blocking the uvb, so don't think he is getting any extra uvb by you setting him in front of the windows. Uvb also does not go through screen, at least very little of it.



I know, but since we have older, clear glass doors, i imagine he is still getting quite a bit of UVA and quite a bit of warmth, plus he just loves destroying all the new, tasty seedlings.


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## Jodie (Feb 7, 2015)

I know how hard this situation is. It broke my heart when I lost 2 Leopard hatchlings to hatchling fail. I am so sorry you're having these problems with your babies. I sure hope they pull through for you.


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## tracey.p (Feb 7, 2015)

Thank you everyone, after this post I put pokey back into his old enclosure under the MVB, and he perked right up and ate the most I have seen him eat for days; it was only cucumber for now, but I am going to try and transition him back to his normal diet tomorrow, or over the next few days. I will see how it goes, and let you all know


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## tortdad (Feb 7, 2015)

tracey.p said:


> Thank you everyone, after this post I put pokey back into his old enclosure under the MVB, and he perked right up and ate the most I have seen him eat for days; it was only cucumber for now, but I am going to try and transition him back to his normal diet tomorrow, or over the next few days. I will see how it goes, and let you all know


 That's good to hear!!!


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## jaizei (Feb 7, 2015)

wellington said:


> Uvb also does not go through screen, at least very little of it.



For the most part, I don't think this is accurate. Window screens may block some of the UVB, but probably not most. Assuming that it'd block 50% of the UVB would be on the higher end and even then a significant amount of UVB could be getting through, depending on the starting amount of UVB.


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## Yvonne G (Feb 7, 2015)

Here's a study in the UK. Scroll down to the section on mesh. It looks like mesh, chicken wire, etc. block out from 15 to 50% of the UV. 

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/uvinnature.htm


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## wellington (Feb 7, 2015)

jaizei said:


> For the most part, I don't think this is accurate. Window screens may block some of the UVB, but probably not most. Assuming that it'd block 50% of the UVB would be on the higher end and even then a significant amount of UVB could be getting through, depending on the starting amount of UVB.


Well, that is what I,have always been told by the experienced keepers on here and also on other reptile sites. I don't have a meter to suggest otherwise, so I don't suggest counting on enough going through a screen.


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## wellington (Feb 7, 2015)

wellington said:


> Well, that is what I,have always been told by the experienced keepers on here and also on other reptile sites. I don't have a meter to suggest otherwise, so I don't suggest counting on enough going through a screen.


According to the link by Yvonne, screen does block a lot of uvb. Any tort sitting in a window won't get much benefit.


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## jaizei (Feb 7, 2015)

wellington said:


> According to the link by Yvonne, screen does block a lot of uvb. Any tort sitting in a window won't get much benefit.



Suppose in direct sun there is 200 µW/cm2; assuming 50% block rate that would mean there could be 100 µW/cm2 getting through the screen. More than likely, that is a higher level of UVB (probably with a lower UVI) than the bulbs most of you are using. And you don't see the benefit of it?


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## jaizei (Feb 7, 2015)

jaizei said:


> Suppose in direct sun there is 200 µW/cm2; assuming 50% block rate that would mean there could be 100 µW/cm2 getting through the screen. More than likely, that is a higher level of UVB (probably with a lower UVI) than the bulbs most of you are using. And you don't see the benefit of it?



Of course, there is no guarantee; depending on variables (location, season, time of day, etc) the level of UVB in direct sun can vary greatly.


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## wellington (Feb 7, 2015)

Well, no I don't. If it is nice enough to open your window and have the sun come through your screen, then most likely it's warm enough to get them outside.


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## Tom (Feb 7, 2015)

tracey.p said:


> ...and I will not accept that they all had 'hatchling failure syndrome' since two of them were from a very good breeder, and they have always had access to water, hides and cooler spots if need be.



The above sentence tells several stories.

Why will you not accept this? Were the babies from the very good breeder soaked daily? Were they on damp substrate with moderate or high humidity and a humid hide available? There are very few breeders over here that start them correctly. I have not yet heard of any breeders in the UK that start them correctly. And by the way, it should be called "Breeder Failure Syndrome", as none of this was your hatchling's fault.

Access to water does not guarantee the tortoise were drinking it or staying hydrated. Many people use inappropriate water bowls and they sit untouched. Also, just having a water bowl in an other wise overly dry enclosure does not guarantee the tortoise will receive adequate hydration. Here is an analogy: If you walked all day through the Sahara desert and drank your whole canteen, do you think you'd be hydrated enough? Probably not. You'd need several canteens. By contrast, how much water would you need on walk through an Oregon coastal forrest. I'll bet that one canteen would be enough to get you through the day.

What do hides and cooler spots have to do with chronic dehydration?

Chronic dehydration frequently takes months to kill them. They will be eating and acting totally normal the whole time. Further, closed chambers do not have anything to do with MBD. They don't prevent it, and they don't cause it. Same for open topped enclosures too. However, do you know what one of the symptoms of early chronic dehydration is? MBD and a "squishy" plastron. Its caused by organ failure. Their organs can't process the calcium or D3 even when they are getting enough of both and they are under adequate UV sources. Lots of hatchling tortoises that are raised outside in the sun in warm climates die of this chronic dehydration related disorder. The soft plastron and MBD symptoms are the result of not enough water early in life, not lack of calcium and UV.

I took the time to elaborate on all of this because I think you are drawing incorrect conclusions about what has gone on. If putting your tortoises in a Viv somehow contributed to them getting sick, then something was terribly wrong with the Viv, the temps, or something to do with the set up.

Here will be a telling detail: What did your tortoises weigh when you got them? How old were they then, and how old are they now? What is their current weight? One of the tell tale signs of "Breeder Failure Syndrome" is lack of growth, or stalling of growth at around 48-50 grams.

The really sad thing in all of this is that, if your problems really are due to chronic dehydration issues from when they were new hatchlings, then nothing you have done or will do will save them. No amount of money spent at the vet will save them. Neither type of enclosure will save them. I have watched many people go through this and it is absolutely heartbreaking.

So before you dismiss the possibility of HFS, can you tell us about their weights and what exactly happened, or didn't happen, at each of the breeder's places?


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## Team Gomberg (Feb 7, 2015)

Tom shared and explained things perfectly. 

I'm sorry you are experiencing this but it really does sound like Breeder Failure Syndrome. 
Tom, I'm stealing that term... sadly it's a perfect fit for the "condition".


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Feb 7, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> Here's a study in the UK. Scroll down to the section on mesh. It looks like mesh, chicken wire, etc. block out from 15 to 50% of the UV.
> 
> http://www.uvguide.co.uk/uvinnature.htm


I thought we came here for the advice and to work with others that love torts . Not to slam others with open end or broad statements so why not just look smarter then some are and say thank you Yvonne for the great info.


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## Millerlite (Feb 7, 2015)

Hopefully being out of the close chamber will get him back to eating and healthy. Keep us posted 

Kyle


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## jeffjeff (Feb 8, 2015)

Tom said:


> The above sentence tells several stories.
> 
> Why will you not accept this? Were the babies from the very good breeder soaked daily? Were they on damp substrate with moderate or high humidity and a humid hide available? There are very few breeders over here that start them correctly. I have not yet heard of any breeders in the UK that start them correctly. And by the way, it should be called "Breeder Failure Syndrome", as none of this was your hatchling's fault.
> 
> ...



i'm just wondering, say you bought a tort and later learned or suspected that it didn't have the best start, at what age/weight would you think hfs was unlikely to be an issue? it kind of worries me as i read they act normal for a long time before showing signs of being ill.


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## Odin's Gma (Feb 8, 2015)

jaizei said:


> Suppose in direct sun there is 200 µW/cm2; assuming 50% block rate that would mean there could be 100 µW/cm2 getting through the screen. More than likely, that is a higher level of UVB (probably with a lower UVI) than the bulbs most of you are using. And you don't see the benefit of it?


I do, and I can tell you that Odin (sulcata) loves his time in the sunny dining room. He is always bright-eyed and full of energy during and afterward, so regardless of how much or how little UVB he is getting it's a good thing and we intend to continue it.


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## Tom (Feb 8, 2015)

jeffjeff said:


> i'm just wondering, say you bought a tort and later learned or suspected that it didn't have the best start, at what age/weight would you think hfs was unlikely to be an issue? it kind of worries me as i read they act normal for a long time before showing signs of being ill.



Generally speaking, if a hatchling sulcata grows steadily and reaches 100 grams, you can rule out chronic hatchling dehydration as an issue. I have not seen a case of a sulcata hatchling being cared for properly reaching this size and then succumbing to these issues.


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## Tom (Feb 8, 2015)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> I thought we came here for the advice and to work with others that love torts . Not to slam others with open end or broad statements so why not just look smarter then some are and say thank you Yvonne for the great info.



Who and what are you talking about? I see no one in this thread slamming anyone. Are you talking about refuting incorrect assumptions? If a person is acting on incorrect assumptions, isn't explaining what might be going on helpful?


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## jskahn (Feb 8, 2015)

I am just curious, have you checked the humidity? There is such a thing as too humid


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## jeffjeff (Feb 8, 2015)

Tom said:


> Generally speaking, if a hatchling sulcata grows steadily and reaches 100 grams, you can rule out chronic hatchling dehydration as an issue. I have not seen a case of a sulcata hatchling being cared for properly reaching this size and then succumbing to these issues.



thankyou.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Feb 8, 2015)

jaizei said:


> Suppose in direct sun there is 200 µW/cm2; assuming 50% block rate that would mean there could be 100 µW/cm2 getting through the screen. More than likely, that is a higher level of UVB (probably with a lower UVI) than the bulbs most of you are using. And you don't see the benefit of it?


@ Tom 
I'm sorry I don't think this is polite or needed " the bulbs most of you are using "


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## Tom (Feb 8, 2015)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> @ Tom
> I'm sorry I don't think this is polite or needed " the bulbs most of you are using "



Thank you for the clarification Grandpa. I did not know what you were referring to.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Feb 8, 2015)

Tom said:


> Thank you for the clarification Grandpa. I did not know what you were referring to.


 Know I was being vage be I really didn't want to single anyone out . But I was too vage . But have a great tort day


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## crimson_lotus (Feb 8, 2015)

I agree with Tom, you cannot rule out HFS just because you purchased from a "reputable" breeder. The older ways they used to keep tortoises (and their hatchlings) were in dry conditions. I actually watched one of Tom's presentations in the media section and he was saying when he started out in the 1980's, every breeder he spoke to told him to start them dry. We are still learning a lot about tortoises and we are learning that the "old" way isn't indefinitely the right way when it comes to breeding, environment, foods, etc. 

So you really do have to talk to your breeder and ask questions. They may have been breeding their tortoises the same way for 50 years without changing a single thing and going off of 50 year old information. 

This is just my input, I don't think you should rule out your breeder just yet.


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## ascott (Feb 8, 2015)

tracey.p said:


> I posted on here a while ago regarding my Sulcata tortoise Flower, who wasn't doing so great, (probably as a result of being dehydrated at the pet shop I bought her from) and I received some great advice on how to best house my more tropical torts (closed chamber set up). Since setting her up in a vivarium, aswell as my other Sulcata Crash and my Leopard tortoise, Pokey, I have lost her, (she died in the night) which was wholly unexpected since she started getting better. Pokey and Crash beforehand were healthy, happy little torts who were very greedy and active, and since being moved into a vivarium are sluggish and withdrawn. I would like to point out that all the temps are perfect, it is very humid, they have two shallow water bowls each, and three hides, as well as fake leaves and plants to hide in; the substrate is coco noir. and they are in separate vivarium's. I have recently spent over £200 at the vets trying to save Crash, who has metabolic bone disease and Pokey is heading the exact same way - I will probably lose him soon. MBD is nearly always caused by not enough UVB and not enough calcium- I would like to point out that I sprinkle a supplement on their diet of freshly cut weeds and grass everyday, and they are under 12% UVB strip lights and a heat bulb on a thermostat. I have ran out of ideas of what to do, I am literally waiting to lose them. It is so frustrating and I sometimes wish I would have just left Pokey and Crash in their plastic runs, with a good old solar glo mercury vapour lamp instead - because that's when they were healthiest. The pain of watching your baby tortoises slip away before you is the hardest thing in the world - especially when everything is how is should be (apparently) in a closed chamber style set up. I have no idea what I am ding wrong anymore, and I will not accept that they all had 'hatchling failure syndrome' since two of them were from a very good breeder, and they have always had access to water, hides and cooler spots if need be. My advice to anyone would be to listen to your tort and maybe the set way of doing things is not always best - it only leads to heartbreak.




I am so tired of hearing this "created" phrase for when a tortoise baby dies....."Hatchling Failure Syndrome" is way too readily tossed around as some eye brow lifting ahh haaa....simple fact (and _fact_ is the word I use due to actual published studies --and not some created phrase by some self proclaimed back yard keepers/breeders) is that some tortoise simply just die....now, with that being said, "I" do not believe that what you have described is due to some silly phrase...

If your torts were doing well in the set up they were in, why was there a drastic change made? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not take my question as a poke at you, I promise by no means is that what I feel at all....I simply ask because if the torts were fine, was there a specific "thing" that made you think you needed to change them into a closed wet hot box? While humidity is an essential part of the ENTIRE parts of the tortoise world...it is in no way a cure all--regardless of what garb is being sold....a warm humid hide that is available to a tortoise is fantastic, however a closed chamber is not what you want if that is a fix all....I know I know, seems somehow that notion has run wild and has created some rampant idea to be "the thing"...

I personally do not believe in that much CONSTANT, HIGH humidity in an entire environment...a tortoise simply needs to have the ability to dry out its shell, its lungs its skin----just necessary to offer a balance of health in all aspects of a living creature....while some folks bash the "old way"...the old way has and still does produce some very healthy animals....

I hope you will be able to bring your torts back round, I really do....if it were me (notice I said, if it were me--and me not telling you what you have to do) I would do what I did that was working for the torts....no tort is the same as another, even is the same species.....

Best wishes to you.


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## TylerStewart (Feb 9, 2015)

ascott said:


> I am so tired of hearing this "created" phrase for when a tortoise baby dies....."Hatchling Failure Syndrome" is way too readily tossed around as some eye brow lifting ahh haaa....simple fact (and _fact_ is the word I use due to actual published studies --and not some created phrase by some self proclaimed back yard keepers/breeders) is that some tortoise simply just die....now, with that being said, "I" do not believe that what you have described is due to some silly phrase...
> 
> If your torts were doing well in the set up they were in, why was there a drastic change made? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not take my question as a poke at you, I promise by no means is that what I feel at all....I simply ask because if the torts were fine, was there a specific "thing" that made you think you needed to change them into a closed wet hot box? While humidity is an essential part of the ENTIRE parts of the tortoise world...it is in no way a cure all--regardless of what garb is being sold....a warm humid hide that is available to a tortoise is fantastic, however a closed chamber is not what you want if that is a fix all....I know I know, seems somehow that notion has run wild and has created some rampant idea to be "the thing"...
> 
> ...


Virtual high-five from Las Vegas, Nevada 

I'm also on the bandwagon that this 'closed chamber' thing is a risk, and a big risk if you ask me. When a heating element or power goes out (not if; when), the tortoise is stuck in a high humidity environment with temperatures falling fast which is a sure way to start a problem. There's nothing wrong with having a humid hide available and the rest of the enclosure be "natural" humidity. We have raised hundreds of tortoises this way with ::GASP:: smooth shells, as have many, many other people. Tortoises (even small ones) can handle cool temperatures with 'natural' humidity (whatever your house and the enclosure provides them, without artificially forcing anything), but they can't handle 90-100% humidity and 70 degrees, which is sad, because 70 degrees isn't even cold, but it would then be cold enough to create a problem with the tortoise unable to escape from the moisture. You can keep a small humid hide warm with a small heat mat behind or under it, or with a ceramic or red bulb over it. If the heating element quits or burns out, they are able to leave the humid area for a night or two without problems. 

I understand that the closed chamber idea has worked for some people, certainly Tom likes it, I just can't figure out how someone could argue that it was anything close to natural. Even if babies spend 95% of their early life in a (more) humid hide (hole in the ground, etc), it's not going to be 90%+ humidity in that hole in the Middle East or the Sahara desert (or Mojave or Sonoran or any other desert), and they would dry out at least once a day as they came out to wander around. Some of the best looking, strongest babies I've ever had were the ones that hatched in their outdoor enclosures that I didn't find for a few months. They look absolutely perfect, and we are obviously in a hot, dry climate with essentially no humidity (less natural rainfall than almost any other city in the US). They don't die two months later from 'chronic dehydration.'

I do believe dehydration is a major killer of baby tortoises, probably the biggest killer, but soaking them 4 to 7 days a week will keep that from happening in all but the hottest, driest environments, if they had no access to a humid hide. In my experience, in an outdoor setting with a few small sources of water (drippers on plants, etc), they have no issues at all with dehydration if you just give them options (shade, sun, moist, dry, underground, above ground, etc) and let nature take its course.


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## Yvonne G (Feb 9, 2015)

I've always thought that each person needs to weigh all the choices and pick which one works best for them and their tortoises in their climate. I give Tom lots of credit for trying to educate and for sharing his trials and errors so we all can raise healthier, prettier tortoises, but Tom's closed chamber just doesn't work for me. I keep my babies in either open-topped Sterlite tubs or open-topped plywood tort tables. I keep the substrate almost wet, and there's a waterer in there for them to wade into if they want to. I also soak them almost daily. This works for me in my climate. I have two 2010 SA leopards that are just as smooth as smooth can be, and the Texas and desert babies I raise to adopt out go to their new homes lookin' pretty darned good. Sometimes, if we're having an exceptionally cold winter, I may have to cover the Sterlite tubs with foil to keep the warm, moist air inside, but this winter I haven't covered them at all. The babies are doing fine.

There really is such a thing as Hatching Failure Syndrome. It's been talked about for many, many years, even before the internet. When I first started out, I joined the National Turtle & Tortoise Society and they talked about it in their newsletter. I believe it was Dr. Jartchow. It may not have anything to do with dehydration, but it is a very real syndrome.


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## Yvonne G (Feb 9, 2015)

@tracey.p : We seem to have gotten off on a tangent. If you'd like me to move all the off topic posts to a thread of their own, I'll be happy to do that for you. Let me know.


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## TylerStewart (Feb 9, 2015)

I agree that some babies just aren't going to make it, it's a natural thing (which is a strong argument to let them hatch out of the ground, where "lesser" babies just don't get out of the nest), just seems like people are so so quick to point every baby that dies at "failure syndrome" rather than "getting to room temperature at 100% humidity" which I think is a much larger problem and tortoise killer than the natural dying of baby tortoises which might be 1%, and likely in the first week or two of life.


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## Yvonne G (Feb 9, 2015)

I agree, Tyler. Most of the "help me" threads posted by newbies can be traced back to allowing the baby to get too cold.


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## Octavious22 (Jul 28, 2015)

Interesting very good info here.


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## nootnootbu (Oct 12, 2022)

I will point out something I have not seen anyone in this thread mention, which could be a very real problem for your babies. Spagnum moss, while commonly used with tortoises, CAN cause impaction when eaten, and this can cause issues, especially in babies. Regular soaks will help you determine if you have an impaction situation, they will not be pooping if they are impacted. 

Also, fake plants can cause the same problem. It looks like food, and torts might eat it. In general, fake plants of any kind within biting reach of any turtle or tortoise is a risk.


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## ZEROPILOT (Oct 12, 2022)

nootnootbu said:


> I will point out something I have not seen anyone in this thread mention, which could be a very real problem for your babies. Spagnum moss, while commonly used with tortoises, CAN cause impaction when eaten, and this can cause issues, especially in babies. Regular soaks will help you determine if you have an impaction situation, they will not be pooping if they are impacted.
> 
> Also, fake plants can cause the same problem. It looks like food, and torts might eat it. In general, fake plants of any kind within biting reach of any turtle or tortoise is a risk.


You are 100% correct and it's unfortunate that no one caught that part.
If that was the OPs issue or not I have no idea. That member hasn't posted since this thread in 2015.
But it's definitely worth mentioning.
Good catch.


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