# Pyramiding



## egyptiandan (Jun 18, 2010)

So here we go 

Tom made a definative statement in a recent thread. "Pyramiding is CAUSED by growth in the absence of sufficient humidity". I'm sure we have gotten into it before, but can anyone explain to me exactly what humidity is doing to prevent pyramiding in a tortoise. I want to know the mechanics of it all. 

Danny


----------



## Seiryu (Jun 18, 2010)

I too would like to know the thoughts on this. My Leopard tortoise, is slightly pyramiding (some said though he was just bumpy and that's just the way he is).

He was kept on Moist (sometimes wet) substrate, access to water 24/7, with a humid hide reaching 90-99% humidity. I soaked him 2-3 times a week. And every feeding (twice a day) I would clean his water, put in warm water and stick him in there every single feeding. So like "mini-soaks". Sometimes he would drink, sometimes he wouldn't.


----------



## South FL Katie (Jun 18, 2010)

I think the humidity has a lot to do with it. Maybe not in all circumstances but Richard Fife has tested different theories and is getting smoother Leopards by using higher humidity levels. 

My Richard Fife Leopard is much smoother than my other Leopard. I don't think it's a coincidence. 

Cody from Richard






Charlie from a different breeder


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Jun 18, 2010)

I say the same thing over and over and I guess because I am not an expert nobody pays any attention to me. Pyramiding is caused by 3 things...lack of exercise, lack of humidity and lack of a good diet. If you have 2 of these things corrected, he has a good diet and does get enough humidity but not enough exercise he is gonna pyramid. Enough exercise great diet not enough humidity, gonna pyramid. I think you need all three of those things, good diet, lots of humidity and lots of exercise or you will have a pyramided tortoise. If you miss one of those things he will pyramid. And BTW, I have been saying this for a number of years. I have always felt this way from the very beginning of my chelonian experience.
My main experience is with Geochelone sulcata and Gopherus agassizii, but I also have box turtles, Russians and a Hermanni, a pond turtle and a RES. I used to volunteer at my sister's turtle and tortoise rescue and while working there I brought home many sick or abused animals and cared for them until they either recovered or died. I feel I have extensive experience with my chosen species and with caring for those sick animals. My pond turtle is missing 1.5 legs, one Ornata is blind and another is partly blind, one is missing a leg. I have head-started a number of Gopherus agassizii for the rescue and I kept them from hatching to a year old and not one that I raised was pyramided. I had 3 Sulcata hatchlings that I raised to yearling status and they were not pyramided and it's because I nurtured those 3 important things. You need lots of exercise, a varied diet and lots of humidity to prevent pyramiding. 
I feel I have enough experience to stake my claim on pyramiding.


----------



## chadk (Jun 18, 2010)

I don't think anyone questions your experience Maggie. Some of us are just not satisfied with anecodotal evidence and have to dig deeper and ask things like "why" and "how". While some folks are fine with just taking someone's word for things, others strive to understand the mechanics behind them, going for 'accepting' to 'understanding'.


----------



## egyptiandan (Jun 18, 2010)

All good answers  but none of them answer my question  

I want to know what humidity does to a tortoise physically that prevents pyramiding.

Danny


----------



## Seiryu (Jun 18, 2010)

maggie3fan said:


> Pyramiding is caused by 3 things...lack of exercise, lack of humidity and lack of a good diet. If you have 2 of these things corrected, he has a good diet and does get enough humidity but not enough exercise he is gonna pyramid. Enough exercise great diet not enough humidity, gonna pyramid. I think you need all three of those things, good diet, lots of humidity and lots of exercise or you will have a pyramided tortoise.



I agree Maggie. It's not JUST Humidity. I was just showing my example of my Leopard. He was kept in a very humid environment and still pyramided. Now I got him at 3-4 months old, so for all I know he might have been started wrong. But the humidity isn't reversing anything yet, but it's not really getting worse either.

I believe I have a good diet too: Plantain, Raddichio, Dandelion, Collard, Turnip, Radish, Hibiscus leaves, Chicory,Clover, Spring Mix, Grasses, 2-3 Moistened Mazuri pellets a week. Calcium Carbonate sprinkled on every meal with Rep-Cal/Herpitivite once a week. Cuttle-bone too.

I do watch the Oxalic Acid intake and items with it are maybe 10-20% of his diet.

As far as exercise. Every time I check on him, he's in a different spot walking around. Outside, he just keeps on trucking, but will take occasional naps in the Hostas or tall grass.

I *believe* I have everything going for him. He isn't an inactive tort by any means, but the pyramiding isn't reversing yet. Hopefully this isn't too off topic, but it's just to further show I don't just keep him humid and expect him to smooth out.


----------



## Terry Allan Hall (Jun 18, 2010)

maggie3fan said:


> I say the same thing over and over and I guess because I am not an expert nobody pays any attention to me. Pyramiding is caused by 3 things...lack of exercise, lack of humidity and lack of a good diet. If you have 2 of these things corrected, he has a good diet and does get enough humidity but not enough exercise he is gonna pyramid. Enough exercise great diet not enough humidity, gonna pyramid. I think you need all three of those things, good diet, lots of humidity and lots of exercise or you will have a pyramided tortoise. If you miss one of those things he will pyramid. And BTW, I have been saying this for a number of years. I have always felt this way from the very beginning of my chelonian experience.
> My main experience is with Geochelone sulcata and Gopherus agassizii, but I also have box turtles, Russians and a Hermanni, a pond turtle and a RES. I used to volunteer at my sister's turtle and tortoise rescue and while working there I brought home many sick or abused animals and cared for them until they either recovered or died. I feel I have extensive experience with my chosen species and with caring for those sick animals. My pond turtle is missing 1.5 legs, one Ornata is blind and another is partly blind, one is missing a leg. I have head-started a number of Gopherus agassizii for the rescue and I kept them from hatching to a year old and not one that I raised was pyramided. I had 3 Sulcata hatchlings that I raised to yearling status and they were not pyramided and it's because I nurtured those 3 important things. You need lots of exercise, a varied diet and lots of humidity to prevent pyramiding.
> I feel I have enough experience to stake my claim on pyramiding.



Maybe you can offer ideas as to why a 3 to 4 yoa Gopher might start slight pyramiding since moving from humid Louisiana to pretty dry Utah...I've heard, from various sources, that pyramiding is thought to only be an issue in very young (1 yoa and under) torts and this started several months ago, and is presumed to be related to the move.

Slowpoke had always been an outside tort until the move, and still stays outside most of the year, has always had a roomy home, currently about 40' X 20', and kept on a good diet.

Stacy, Slowpoke's "mom" is really worried!

TIA!


----------



## Rhyno47 (Jun 18, 2010)

Im not very sure either. My thought was that since pyramiding only really happens while they are young it has to do with their rapid growth, (primarily sulcatas.) Humidity must somehow keep it under control. If you look at a pyramided shell's inner workings, its very unorganized almost like how cancer cells grow on top of each other instead of lying flat and staying organized. I think that in a humid environment the cells stack evenly on each other. Another thing to consider is that during healthy growth the cells on top are growing and reproducing while the cells on the bottom of the shell are dying off at the same pace. In unhealthy growth there are air pockets inside the pyramided growth. It resembles a sponge in a way. So in a humid environment the cells can grow evenly, while in an arid environment cells stack up and grow faster than they are dying off.


----------



## Yvonne G (Jun 18, 2010)

egyptiandan said:


> All good answers  but none of them answer my question
> 
> I want to know what humidity does to a tortoise physically that prevents pyramiding.
> 
> Danny



I can make a guess, but I don't really know for sure. It keeps the new growth softer and allows it to lay flat. In my opinion, when its new growth and dry, it will tend to kinda' pinch up instead of be supple and lay flat. Just a guess.


----------



## kbaker (Jun 18, 2010)

egyptiandan said:


> So here we go
> 
> Tom made a definative statement in a recent thread. "Pyramiding is CAUSED by growth in the absence of sufficient humidity". I'm sure we have gotten into it before, but can anyone explain to me exactly what humidity is doing to prevent pyramiding in a tortoise. I want to know the mechanics of it all.
> 
> Danny



I did not get much of a response with these posts.

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-14007-post-125363.html#pid125363
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-12290-post-108551.html#pid108551
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-11653-post-101920.html#pid101920

Do they help answer your question?


----------



## TylerStewart (Jun 18, 2010)

Am I the only person here who has killed a "desert (sulcata - leopard)" tortoise from having too much humidity, too often? I agree (and I think most do) that humidity plays a major role, but the answer is not as easy as throwing 100% humidity at the tortoise all the time. I'm convinced that I have killed leopard and sulcata babies for this reason. There's a balance that needs to be reached between wet and dry, and even Richard Fife agrees to this, and does this. People constantly think that just turning a sulcata or leopard into a water turtle will prevent pyramiding, when, in my opinion, it creates a sick (or worse) tortoise.

Edit: Sorry Danny, I doubt you're going to get the answer(s) you're asking for!

I also don't really think that much of anything regarding pyramiding happens in the first _weeks_ of life. Months, probably. Year, of course... Mine usually haven't changed much at all in size, shape or smoothness in _weeks_. Maybe I should cut back on the dog food I've been giving them


----------



## PowersSax911 (Jun 18, 2010)

I have a question about my greek. He's got ridges forming on his shell. How does humidity affect his/her shell? it doesn't make sense. Its like rain altering human DNA


----------



## Terry Allan Hall (Jun 18, 2010)

PowersSax911 said:


> I have a question about my greek. He's got ridges forming on his shell. How does humidity affect his/her shell? it doesn't make sense. Its like rain altering human DNA



Ridges like growth rings or actual pyramiding?


----------



## GBtortoises (Jun 18, 2010)

Good question Dan-and I don't have the answer either. All I'm going to add is this: I think it's more accurately _moisture_ and not humidity. Many of the tortoise species from climates with dry air still grow smooth in the wild so I don't see how it can be due solely or mainly to ambient air humidity. But, given the fact that most if not all very young tortoises spend a lot of time in hiding during their younger years, basically in constant contact with the ground, where even the slightest moisture is trapped, I have to believe that substrate moisture is the key. The room that I raise baby tortoises in averages 50-60% ambient humidity throughout the winter. I spray the tortoises substrates very well twice daily and soak it thoroughly about once a week. All of the babies I've raised in the past half dozen years or so since I've started "keeping them wet" are as smooth as possible for being raised in captivity. Minus the hardships of the wild like wind, abrasion and other natural hardships that would help keep them smooth. 
While I do believe that moisture (or lack of) is the major contributing factor to smooth growth I think that there are other minor contributing factors too such as excessive heat for long durations (which may obviously contribute in part to dryness), excessive use of vitamins and not enough room for normal activity.


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Jun 18, 2010)

I like Vicki's theory that it's wet or damp pressure that prevents the pyramiding. In the wild hatchlings stay in a humid burrow or hide under plant leafs. That puts a subtle damp pressure on the carapace. I like this theory but how could we prove it? Vicki tries to replicate this in captivity and keeps her babies in a tight hide or under lots of plants.


----------



## kbaker (Jun 18, 2010)

I have not had any problems with tortoises getting sick...hatchling to large adults....sulcatas and leopards.




[/img]




[/img]




[/img]




[/img]




[/img]




[/img]




[/img]




[/img]


----------



## PowersSax911 (Jun 18, 2010)

Okay so let me get this straight, Pyramiding is when actual points are forming yes?


----------



## egyptiandan (Jun 18, 2010)

Never thought I was Tyler. 

Rapid growth is only a problem when there isn't enough of the 3 things (calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D3) needed to produce bone. If your providing enough of all 3 to keep up with the growth, than the new growth will be fine. When there isn't enough of all 3 the bone forms with what is available. When that happens the bone becomes porus (full of holes) to get the job done.

Not sure how a form fitting hide would work on influencing the shape of the shell unless it was attached to the shell permanently. As in what the Aztec did by strapping a board to a baby's forehead to make a sloping skull (it worked really well).

Not sure how you can compare hair to bone, but I guess you can.  I know that low pressure brings clouds, rain and higher humidity and high pressure brings cloudless skies, no clouds and lower humidity. But other than that how does air pressure influence bone growth.

I also didn't know that bone growth was like curing cement.  Bone is either growing bone or already grown bone. Growing occurs when cartiledge is replaced by bone, making the bones longer. When still growing, cartiledge is replaced faster than the bone can grow. Thats how the bones keep growing until adulthood.

All these wonderful things are happening inside the tortoise's body (not outside the body).

So again  What is happening inside a tortoise that would be influenced by humidity?

Danny


----------



## TylerStewart (Jun 18, 2010)

kbaker said:


> I have not had any problems with tortoises getting sick...hatchling to large adults....sulcatas and leopards.



That's far from what I'm talking about. I'm saying they shouldn't be kept constantly (as in, 24/7) on a wet substrate (and/or 100% humidity), which is what some people think prevents pyramiding. I have played around with that idea, and it wasn't pretty. I'm sure someone will do it and say I'm wrong - I'm just saying when I did it, I was losing babies, and there was no other explanation than that for me. It's a mistake I would never test again, that's for sure.

In the Leopard tortoise book by Fife, it shows very clearly how to build a "humid hide" and combine it with a dry area to produce smooth babies. It shows it also in the Star Tortoises book by Jerry Fife. If it is tried that way, it works. I'm not sure why more humidity or moisture is needed, and to me, adds risk. That's all. 

-Pretty sulcatas, by the way.


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Jun 18, 2010)

chadk said:


> I don't think anyone questions your experience Maggie. Some of us are just not satisfied with anecodotal evidence and have to dig deeper and ask things like "why" and "how". While some folks are fine with just taking someone's word for things, others strive to understand the mechanics behind them, going for 'accepting' to 'understanding'.



I understand your point. But...I know what I have experienced keeping numerous tortoises and working at the rescue. So basically I know what I have seen and personally experienced. But how do I get that across to people like you who need to know how or why? I just have the experience to show, basically, my word for it. There is no way for me to get my personal experience across to you or others. I know it takes those 3 things to prevent pyramiding, I have seen it and experienced it, but like I said, that's what I have for proof. My own personal experience. Actual proof or how, I can't answer that either. Why it works? Don't know, just know it does, and that's not good enough. Numerous Gopherus agassizii were raised by me, all smooth. A few Sulcata were raised by me, smooth. But realistically all I have left for proof is Bob and he was already slightly pyramided when he came to me. My box turtles are smooth, does that count? 
So I continually blab about the three things in my experience that are needed to prevent pyramiding, a good varied diet, lots of exercise not just some and mega amounts of humidity. But I have no proof and I don't know how. I think I am going to add carapace pressure to that. I think Tom needs to take one of his experimental pyramiding animals and wrap a tight elastic band around it and add that to his experiment...tight wet pressure


----------



## Tom (Jun 18, 2010)

egyptiandan said:


> So here we go
> 
> Tom made a definative statement in a recent thread. "Pyramiding is CAUSED by growth in the absence of sufficient humidity". I'm sure we have gotten into it before, but can anyone explain to me exactly what humidity is doing to prevent pyramiding in a tortoise. I want to know the mechanics of it all.
> 
> Danny



I've been searching for the answer to this question for 20 years. IF someone out there knows the answer, they aren't sharing it. I've heard several plausible theories over the years, but nothing definitive. Since there is no money to be made in growing a smooth pet tortoise, no one has forked over millions or billions to do the necessary research. I think we are on our own to figure this one out. Anyone got a few extra million and want to fund a research project?

In the absence of FACTS about the exact mechanisms at work we are left with cause and effect and observation. I can't tell you the exact mechanism by which a mammalian body utilizes oxygen. I know it has to do with iron and hemoglobin and cell structures, but I can't explain it, exactly. I can, however, explain in great detail what will happen if a mammal is deprived of too much of it for too long. Same story for pyramiding. I don't know the mechanism, but I do know when it does (dry) and doesn't (wet) happen.

Maggie, briefly, you ARE an expert. I have just seen things that contradict what you believe. I still think you are great and FULL of great helpful advice for people. Following YOUR program and all three of your points WILL give anyone a healthy tortoise. I have seen unhealthy, poorly cared for tortoises that were smooth because they lived in or near a swamp.


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Jun 18, 2010)

Tom said:


> egyptiandan said:
> 
> 
> > So here we go
> ...



I am NOT an expert. I just have some experience.


----------



## Tom (Jun 18, 2010)

egyptiandan said:


> Never thought I was Tyler.
> 
> Rapid growth is only a problem when there isn't enough of the 3 things (calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D3) needed to produce bone. If your providing enough of all 3 to keep up with the growth, than the new growth will be fine. When there isn't enough of all 3 the bone forms with what is available. When that happens the bone becomes porus (full of holes) to get the job done.
> 
> ...



I hear what you are saying and it makes sense, but it hasn't held up in the real world from my experience with desert species.

Here's a reverse question that might help shed some light. Can you explain why mine pyramided? At 12 years old and 40 pounds, I don't think anyone will argue that I grew them too fast or fed them too much. They had a varied, calcium rich diet fed daily, and regular sunshine and exercise. They spent about 3/4 of the year out in their outdoor pen in the CA sunshine. If it was sunny and over 70 they were outside in a giant pen with at least partial sun all day. They got Rep-Cal brand calcium 3-4 times a week as babies, tapering off to two times a week as they got bigger. Indoors they were kept 75-80 at night and had a 110 degree basking spot during the day if it was too cold outside. In doors and out they were kept bone dry. I soaked the babies 3-4 times a week tapering down to once or twice a week as they got bigger.

Please grill me for more info. I want to learn. I don't care whose right or wrong.



TylerStewart said:


> kbaker said:
> 
> 
> > I have not had any problems with tortoises getting sick...hatchling to large adults....sulcatas and leopards.
> ...



Tyler, I hear what you are saying. It CAN go too far. 100% humidity ALL the time is surely not the way to go. I have been keeping my 3 year old ONE (only one, so far) that way since I got her at 12 weeks and no problems yet. My hatchlings are being kept that way too. They are a month old now and growing and thriving. I'm not saying it wasn't a problem for you and I agree that there needs to be some sort of balance, but the extremes haven't been a problem for me. I found that a humid hide box alone did nothing to stop a tortoise that was already pyramiding. If they are started that way (with a humid hide box) from babies, maybe that would be enough. I think I might be getting away with the extremes (swampiness) because when mine come out for daily sun, its very hot and dry. Gives their lungs and nasal passages time to dry out. Babies are only out for an hour or two a day. Older one 2-4 hours on average. The other 22 hours are spent in 80-90% humidity with a 99-100% humidity hide box.



emysemys said:


> egyptiandan said:
> 
> 
> > All good answers  but none of them answer my question
> ...



I like this.

Richard Fife referred to spraying the tortoises shell a couple of times a day as another way to prevent pyramiding. He's in the process of doing more research on it, but called it "lubrication" between the growing scutes.

...more food for thought.


----------



## DeanS (Jun 18, 2010)

Are there actually some people out there applying vaseline to the scute channels?


----------



## terryo (Jun 18, 2010)

This doesn't have anything to do with your question Danny. IMHO...if you can't answer a question.... of any kind...I can't imagine who else could. To me you're a walking encyclopedia. 
I have absolutely NO experience with tortoises of any kind. Pio is only 3 years old, and that makes me a novice compared to any of you. When Pio was 1 month old I put him in the planted vivarium. He has dry substrate...dry, with only plants misted once a day to bring humidity into his viv. But I have done what Vicki said. I pack his hide, which is soaked in water for a half hour every week, with long fiber moss that I wet, squeeze out and fluff up. But he has to dig his way into the hide and is then incased in the damp moss. He really got no exercise for the first year of his life as he only ate and then went into his hide. The food he got was what Terry K. told me to feed him....you all know what that is. He is really very smooth so far. He rarely gets protein. So what made him grow so smooth?
My friend has two sulcata's since they were 2 months old. They only went out for 4 or less months out of the whole year. She feeds them escarole, spring mix and rose of Sharon...I don't think she ever gave them hay , or whatever they're supposed to eat. In the winter they live in their own room in her house ...with lights hanging from the ceiling, and a heater of some kind. I don't know how old they are, but they are so big that have to be taken in with a dolly and have a big dog house for a hide when outside. After reading all the posts on sulcata's it seems she does everything wrong. I don't think she ever gave them humidity of any kind, and her house has dry heat in the winter. They never had a humid hide to go in. Dogs run all over the yard with them too, mastiff mixes. For being raised that way, they don't have that much pyramiding.


----------



## TylerStewart (Jun 18, 2010)

Tom said:


> Tyler, I hear what you are saying. It CAN go too far. 100% humidity ALL the time is surely not the way to go. I have been keeping my 3 year old ONE (only one, so far) that way since I got her at 12 weeks and no problems yet. My hatchlings are being kept that way too. They are a month old now and growing and thriving. I'm not saying it wasn't a problem for you and I agree that there needs to be some sort of balance, but the extremes haven't been a problem for me. I found that a humid hide box alone did nothing to stop a tortoise that was already pyramiding. If they are started that way (with a humid hide box) from babies, maybe that would be enough. I think I might be getting away with the extremes (swampiness) because when mine come out for daily sun, its very hot and dry. Gives their lungs and nasal passages time to dry out. Babies are only out for an hour or two a day. Older one 2-4 hours on average. The other 22 hours are spent in 80-90% humidity with a 99-100% humidity hide box.





And that few hours in the sun is probably all they need, and might be a natural number for a baby (1-3 hours in the dry, 22 hours in the moist). Again, I was only referring to one being kept all humid, all the time. That's what I was doing when mine were dying on me. They didn't get any "outside time" because that was the point of my "experiment," if that's what you'd call it. I think that if yours weren't getting the "outside time" you would be seeing similar problems. 

I still think that the Fife-type setup is by far the most natural, and works when done from a hatchling size. I don't think anyone believes that they are ever at 100% humidity naturally, and certainly not in as much of a "swamp" as your are raising the babies. Besides the occasional flood or heavy rainstorm (which would dry up after a few days), they average much less than 100% humidity even in a deep burrow, and naturally, they are probably pretty dry in the few hours they're out and about (which I think enables them to handle the higher humidity of the burrow). I know the intent of the "tests" you're doing is to find out if humidity and/or moisture will prevent pyramiding, but really, I can tell you that the Fife type setup will prevent it - even when done in an outdoor setting like I have done. Not sure why it needs to be a swamp to prove anything.


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Jun 18, 2010)

Right now in Dakar Senegal the temp is 77 degrees and the humidity is 83%. Since I have been watching the temp and humidity there the ambient humidity has never been below 70% . I've been watching this for over a year. I should have been writing it all down, but of course I didn't. Rarely has the humidity fallen below 80%.


----------



## egyptiandan (Jun 18, 2010)

I was just trying to get someone close to coming up with what humidity affected inside a tortoise's body to prevent pyramiding. 

Well here goes.  After the study that was done supposedly showing that humidity affected whether a tortoise pyramided or not, someone did another study about what it was that humidity did for a tortoise. I'm pretty sure but not positive it was published in Radiata. They found that hatchling tortoises dehydrated extremely quickly when feed a mainly weed diet (most is low in moisture) and if your giving a dry supplement, even worse. They were finding that a hatchling tortoise can dehydrate over night in a regular set-up (no humid hide). So unless a tortoise is drinking a ton of water and getting a high moisture diet in a regular set-up they were dehydrating every night. This dehydration caused the internal organs (liver and kidneys) to slowly become less effective (causing irreversable damage) in doing what they are supposed to be doing (processing vitamins and minerals and cleaning for the liver and eliminating waste for the kidneys). This slowly but steadily prevents the body from utilising the vitamins and minerals that the body is taking in. So you think you are doing everything right and giving your tortoise what it needs and in the right amount, but as the tortoise keeps getting dehydrated every night and organ function is going down you would have to be upping the vitamins and minerals to counter act this. They were testing blood calcium levels during this study.
So what they found was that if you used a humid hide you would prevent your hatchling (larger tortoises don't have this problem as they hold more water) from dehydrating over night and damaging it's internal organs. That would let the tortoise use what supplements it was getting without having to give large amounts. So it's always good to know why exactly something works and what it's doing.
So basicly you are trying to keep your hatchling from dehydrating and damaging internal organs. 

Danny


----------



## stells (Jun 18, 2010)

Pass... i don't know what i am talking about....


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Jun 18, 2010)

While I do keep a moist substrate I don't use a humid hide so why are my babies smooth? Does not make much sense. None of the Gopherus babies that I head started were ever pyramided.


----------



## terryo (Jun 18, 2010)

I love reading this thread, but I am so ignorant about this that you all sound like you're talking in another language. LMAO....I just had to post this.


----------



## Madkins007 (Jun 18, 2010)

Well, shucks, Dan- you sprung your trap before I could add my nickels worth! My research seems to point at total system dehydration as the culprit behind a LOT of tortoise care issues.


----------



## DeanS (Jun 18, 2010)

I've changed the babies regimen again! They get the pool from 9AM-11AM...no shade and they have taken to running (fast walking) in the water...and two of them have taken to swimming. 11AM-3PM...into their separate enclosures...fed with no hides in the enclosure for 20 minutes...they eat at this point. Then I replace the hides which had been soaking and soak the terrain...it's been at least in the high 80s for the past two weeks...3PM-5PM...back to the pool...Then I move them to their TORTOISE HOUSEs where the heat is at 85 in the den areas with 80-90% humidity (thanks to moist Eco Earth)...and, of course they get to eat again.


----------



## egyptiandan (Jun 18, 2010)

Well didn't they dig down into the substrate Maggie? If so, you gave them a humid hide which prevented them from dehydrating over night. 

Danny


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Jun 18, 2010)

egyptiandan said:


> Well didn't they dig down into the substrate Maggie? If so, you gave them a humid hide which prevented them from dehydrating over night.
> 
> Danny



hahaha, I never looked at it that way...So I guess I will stop saying they didn't have a humid hide...


----------



## TylerStewart (Jun 18, 2010)

Many species just aren't prone to it like sulcatas are, either. Yellowfoots, for example, rarely pyramid.... My yellowfoots have never gone lumpy, and I have some 2 year olds that are perfectly smooth. I've seen some that were raised side by side with sulcatas in Phoenix that were smooth when the sulcatas were lumpy (raised literally with them, in the same enclosure). An old friend of mine raises DTs here, and his are never pyramided at 4-5-6" even though he doesn't know anything about a humid hide. I don't think the rapid growth of sulcatas helps their case, either.


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Jun 18, 2010)

Right now in Senegal the temperature is 77 degrees and the humidity is a whooping 94%...Do ya think rain is on the way???


----------



## stells (Jun 19, 2010)

For the reverse question... simply you grew them too slow... and to do this you must have restricted food... which therefore restricts the nutrients... which leads to stunted badly grown tortoises... 

Also with the temps you get and the restricted food... i would have been bathing more... as with less food there is less water content... and you live in a hot climate so i personally would have been bathing everyday... 



Tom said:


> egyptiandan said:
> 
> 
> > Never thought I was Tyler.
> ...


----------



## kbaker (Jun 19, 2010)

egyptiandan said:


> I was just trying to get someone close to coming up with what humidity affected inside a tortoise's body to prevent pyramiding.
> 
> Well here goes.  After the study that was done supposedly showing that humidity affected whether a tortoise pyramided or not, someone did another study about what it was that humidity did for a tortoise. I'm pretty sure but not positive it was published in Radiata. They found that hatchling tortoises dehydrated extremely quickly when feed a mainly weed diet (most is low in moisture) and if your giving a dry supplement, even worse. They were finding that a hatchling tortoise can dehydrate over night in a regular set-up (no humid hide). So unless a tortoise is drinking a ton of water and getting a high moisture diet in a regular set-up they were dehydrating every night. This dehydration caused the internal organs (liver and kidneys) to slowly become less effective (causing irreversable damage) in doing what they are supposed to be doing (processing vitamins and minerals and cleaning for the liver and eliminating waste for the kidneys). This slowly but steadily prevents the body from utilising the vitamins and minerals that the body is taking in. So you think you are doing everything right and giving your tortoise what it needs and in the right amount, but as the tortoise keeps getting dehydrated every night and organ function is going down you would have to be upping the vitamins and minerals to counter act this. They were testing blood calcium levels during this study.
> So what they found was that if you used a humid hide you would prevent your hatchling (larger tortoises don't have this problem as they hold more water) from dehydrating over night and damaging it's internal organs. That would let the tortoise use what supplements it was getting without having to give large amounts. So it's always good to know why exactly something works and what it's doing.
> ...



My ideas (without being said) were on assumming the tortoise was getting what it needed internally and the missing part was adding humidity to get smooth shell growth. And just like Tom's experiment, it can only show what works and not how it works on a cell (shell) level. We all knew before this post that dehydration and organ damage does not make a healthy tortoise.
One thing that I made a mistake on when posting to your question was thinking you were asking how humidity directly effected the inside of a tortoise and reality, it's more how it indirectly effects the inside of a tortoise.
I would like to know more about this experiment...such has enclosers and temperatures. I do not believe a tortoise would only dehydrate at night. With the open pens and basking lights that some people use, some are making beef jerky all day. I don't think that anyone is feeding dry weeds from day one so I don't think the experiments really apply to what everyday people are doing and why they get pyramiding with their tortoises. 

Tyler-
The comment about raising sulcatas and yellowfoots side by side in PHX. That is misleading or inacurate?? Just from reading on this forum, yellowfoots don't like the conditions that you would raise a sulcata in...such has bright sunlight in an open pen. And visevera, a sulcata would not be happy in a well shaded dark pen. With different habits, I don't think the two did the same things at the same time of day.


I don't like this part of the forum...it always sounds like there are sides, arguements and poking fun at how people try to make points. I think Dan got his attention with how he presented his post. I would like to have read about the experiments in another part of the forum. The information Dan gave is not something that is "debatable". The conclusion of the experiment was dehydration and organ damage effects the health of the tortoise inturn effects the shell of the tortoise.

Have a good weekend and Happy Father's day-


----------



## Terry Allan Hall (Jun 19, 2010)

Did some further research, found these:
http://www.turtlestuff.com/pyramid.html
http://africantortoise.com/pyramiding_in_tortoises.htm
http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/Pyramiding.htm


----------



## TylerStewart (Jun 19, 2010)

kbaker said:


> Tyler-
> The comment about raising sulcatas and yellowfoots side by side in PHX. That is misleading or inacurate?? Just from reading on this forum, yellowfoots don't like the conditions that you would raise a sulcata in...such has bright sunlight in an open pen. And visevera, a sulcata would not be happy in a well shaded dark pen. With different habits, I don't think the two did the same things at the same time of day.



It's not misleading or inaccurate, and I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I agree that yellowfoots shouldn't be raised the same way as a sulcata. All I'm saying is that I know of some that were raised together, and one species pyramided and the other didn't. Unless you specifically search for it, it's difficult to find photos of a pyramided yellowfoot. As far as the activity and the time of day, they might have been slightly off in the active times... They were both in very little humidity with a water dish provided, I'm sure they both slept at night, most active in the morning and evening, so it wouldn't have been _that_ far off. My only point was that some species are more prone to it than others, which is clearly the case. Never seen a pyramided elongated, either, that I can think of.


----------



## Tom (Jun 19, 2010)

stells said:


> For the reverse question... simply you grew them too slow... and to do this you must have restricted food... which therefore restricts the nutrients... which leads to stunted badly grown tortoises...
> 
> Also with the temps you get and the restricted food... i would have been bathing more... as with less food there is less water content... and you live in a hot climate so i personally would have been bathing everyday...



So now you are saying that in addition to growing them too fast, growing them too slow ALSO causes them to pyramid? So they pyramid if you feed them too much AND they pyramid if you feed them too little?

They were fed a varied diet in reasonable amounts daily. They were also allowed to graze all day on weeds and grass. With 3-4 soaks a week and plenty of "wet" food I don't think you'll make me believe they were dehydrated.

Have you seen the pics of my adults? Are they "badly grown"? No one else has been able to answer whether they are permanently stunted or just growing slower than the average sulcata. My adults certainly SEEM healthier and more active than most of the sulcatas I have seen of their age.

Maybe you, or anyone else, can explain to me the 50-60 pound 5-6 year olds that were free fed dog kibble and the only water they got was from puddles when it rained or weeds that popped up in their yards. They got NO calcium supplementation and they were smooth as a wild caught. Oh, by the way I saw two of these in Florida and several just outside of New Orleans. I have never seen one of these in CA, AZ, UT or anywhere else dry. The smooth ones we've recently seen from AZ all can be explained with humidity.


----------



## stells (Jun 19, 2010)

I haven't said growing them too fast... if there is such a thing... causes them to pyramid... i have never played by the rules on the grow them slow theory... sorry... thats part of the 15 year old caresheet you said i was like... that doesn't stick with me 

Tom you are the one that keeps telling us they grew badly... so why are you asking me if i have seen the pictures? but yes i have seen the pics... no they aren't too badly grown... but you are the one with the obssesion with them being badly grown here... not me...

If you don't believe they were dehydrated then why the big thing on humidity... when humidity helps to keep a tortoise hydrated?

You asked an opinion... again i gave one... again you got defensive... why ask for an opinion in the first place... if you aren't going to like the reply's...


----------



## kbaker (Jun 19, 2010)

stells said:


> I haven't said growing them too fast... if there is such a thing... causes them to pyramid... i have never played by the rules on the grow them slow theory... sorry... thats part of the 15 year old caresheet you said i was like... that doesn't stick with me
> 
> Tom you are the one that keeps telling us they grew badly... so why are you asking me if i have seen the pictures? but yes i have seen the pics... no they aren't too badly grown... but you are the one with the obssesion with them being badly grown here... not me...
> 
> ...



Tom can correct me if I am wrong...Tom and I were looking at increasing humidity because of the direct effect on the outer shell. Dan pulled Tom into this when Dan was going into another direction which confused the situation.
Hydration was a given or more like, we did not see our tortoises as dehydrated.

I think Tom would agree, there is no debate here. A healthy tortoise needs to be hydrated and with the needed nutrition, can grow a smooth shell. The problem is people want definant temp, amount, measurable hydration, food type, speed/time...its all a balancing act. This is one reason caresheets do not work.

What needs to be done is to show people how to tell if their tortoise is hydrated (and other things) and to show them ways to keep them that way. I know its not easy to do this.





Actually what Dan has said works with what Tom is trying to do. One example is stopping pyramiding after it starts. It can be done, but it depends on what is going on inside the tortoise. Is the tortoise getting the needed nurtrition? Is it processing it well? If the tortoise has perminant organ failure, no- you can't stop it. If you can get the tortoise's organs to recover then sure, you have a chance to stop it from pyramiding.

Like I said- no debate. We want the same things and what Tom is experimenting with and what Dan has said are all part of the same puzzle.

You can lead a tortoise to water, but you can't make him drink.


----------



## Tom (Jun 20, 2010)

terryo said:


> This doesn't have anything to do with your question Danny. IMHO...if you can't answer a question.... of any kind...I can't imagine who else could. To me you're a walking encyclopedia.
> I have absolutely NO experience with tortoises of any kind. Pio is only 3 years old, and that makes me a novice compared to any of you. When Pio was 1 month old I put him in the planted vivarium. He has dry substrate...dry, with only plants misted once a day to bring humidity into his viv. But I have done what Vicki said. I pack his hide, which is soaked in water for a half hour every week, with long fiber moss that I wet, squeeze out and fluff up. But he has to dig his way into the hide and is then incased in the damp moss. He really got no exercise for the first year of his life as he only ate and then went into his hide. The food he got was what Terry K. told me to feed him....you all know what that is. He is really very smooth so far. He rarely gets protein. So what made him grow so smooth?
> My friend has two sulcata's since they were 2 months old. They only went out for 4 or less months out of the whole year. She feeds them escarole, spring mix and rose of Sharon...I don't think she ever gave them hay , or whatever they're supposed to eat. In the winter they live in their own room in her house ...with lights hanging from the ceiling, and a heater of some kind. I don't know how old they are, but they are so big that have to be taken in with a dolly and have a big dog house for a hide when outside. After reading all the posts on sulcata's it seems she does everything wrong. I don't think she ever gave them humidity of any kind, and her house has dry heat in the winter. They never had a humid hide to go in. Dogs run all over the yard with them too, mastiff mixes. For being raised that way, they don't have that much pyramiding.



Terry, I'm glad you are participating here. I think you sell yourself short in the knowledge/experience department.

The tortoise in that pic is mildly pyramided kind of like my Bert. In that pic the ground in the enclosed backyard is fairly damp. I'll bet if someone set a humidity gauge on thew ground out there, it would be pretty high. I've seen it often when someone says things are fairly dry and then when you look in to it you find all sorts of humidity. The forum member from AZ who posted the pic of the perfectly smooth yearling comes to mind. He had them on a dry substrate in a very dry part of the country. After a few questions we found out he used a swamp cooler half of the year, soaked daily, and had other reptile cages and their accompanying humidity in a closed room.

I'd love it if some forum members that have grassy, planted, closed in (4 walls), well irrigated backyards would go out there and set a humidity meter on the ground. My parents have a backyard like that and I can FEEL the humidity on a warm day back there. Next time I'm down there, I'll have to remember to bring a gauge.



egyptiandan said:


> I was just trying to get someone close to coming up with what humidity affected inside a tortoise's body to prevent pyramiding.
> 
> Well here goes.  After the study that was done supposedly showing that humidity affected whether a tortoise pyramided or not, someone did another study about what it was that humidity did for a tortoise. I'm pretty sure but not positive it was published in Radiata. They found that hatchling tortoises dehydrated extremely quickly when feed a mainly weed diet (most is low in moisture) and if your giving a dry supplement, even worse. They were finding that a hatchling tortoise can dehydrate over night in a regular set-up (no humid hide). So unless a tortoise is drinking a ton of water and getting a high moisture diet in a regular set-up they were dehydrating every night. This dehydration caused the internal organs (liver and kidneys) to slowly become less effective (causing irreversable damage) in doing what they are supposed to be doing (processing vitamins and minerals and cleaning for the liver and eliminating waste for the kidneys). This slowly but steadily prevents the body from utilising the vitamins and minerals that the body is taking in. So you think you are doing everything right and giving your tortoise what it needs and in the right amount, but as the tortoise keeps getting dehydrated every night and organ function is going down you would have to be upping the vitamins and minerals to counter act this. They were testing blood calcium levels during this study.
> So what they found was that if you used a humid hide you would prevent your hatchling (larger tortoises don't have this problem as they hold more water) from dehydrating over night and damaging it's internal organs. That would let the tortoise use what supplements it was getting without having to give large amounts. So it's always good to know why exactly something works and what it's doing.
> ...



Danny, I have nothing but the highest respect for you, but this just doesn't add up. So you're telling me that every single (Okay, there have been a tiny fraction that weren't pyramided.) captive raised Leopard and Sulcata over the last 30 years has "irreversible" liver and kidney damage caused by chronic dehydration? The damage is so severe that their organs can't function properly to the point of inability to properly assimilate calcium in the shell and bones? So they pyramid as babies, but somehow survive this terrible irreversible organ damage, then go on to grow up to be healthy 100 pound adults and produce 3-5 clutches of fertile eggs every year? This does not make logical sense to me, but I can't tell you you are wrong. The next time I hear of a pyramided Leopard or sulcata dying I will take it to my reptile veterinarian friend and have him thoroughly examine the liver and kidneys. He's very in to all this stuff too, so I know he'll do it for me. I've anyone within driving distance of me hears of anyone with a sick or dying Sulcata or Leopard of any age, please PM me. Put it in the fridge (not the freezer) ASAP after death. I know its morbid, but how else can you get specimens for dissection. This is something that can be easily investigated.

In my case, 12 years ago, my babies got soaked 4 times a week for 20-30 minutes and ate "wet" food from the grocery store 3-5 times a week. The other days they got cactus, weeds, fresh grass, flowers, etc... They had dry substrate, hot basking spots and low humidity. In your opinion, were they dehydrated enough to cause irreversible organ damage?

This might explain some of the more severe cases, but I don't think it explains EVERY case.


----------



## chairman (Jun 21, 2010)

[Disclaimer- my medical degree was issued by Google.  ]

In humans (the best financed research I can find), bone growth issues are almost always related to vitamin/mineral deficiencies of some variety. Sometimes it is actually a deficiency in the diet, others it is an organ or process that isn't working properly so the vitamins/minerals present in the diet don't get used by the body, and then there're some genetic issues, etc. So, to me, the research Danny has summarized makes a lot of sense. Water is a necessary component of blood, and not having enough water in the blood makes it so that things can't properly dissolve in the blood for dissemination throughout the body. And if the supplies aren't getting to the organs, how are they supposed to work? I wouldn't expect organ damage to be immediate, but over time it'd have to happen. Also, I wouldn't expect a researcher to come out and cry organ damage if blood tests, etc didn't indicate that it was happening.

But my biggest question is, do any other vertebrates "easily" get bone growth issues similar to pyramided shells? What makes tortoise shells so special? The only thing I can think is that most vertebrates keep their bones encased in a meat suit, and tortoises don't. So maybe the lack of a flesh encasement is a good clue to chase? There's a hypothesis for ya- tortoises pyramid because their shells don't have flesh growing over them.


----------

