# Red wigglers-Toxin Machines or safe?



## Cowboy_Ken (Jan 16, 2015)

In a separate thread, a poster mentioned reading an article that indicated compost eating red-wigglers were not good to feed due to concentrations of toxins built up in the worm. An example was given of a garter snake feeding on them, and basically turning itself inside-out to purge itself. 
Anyone have feedback, reference material, or personal observations to help with an overall understanding regarding the safe/unsafe use of them as a food source? Please contribute.


----------



## Yvonne G (Jan 16, 2015)

I have heard before to not feed worms to turtles if the worms were from a "professional" compost source, such as bait shop worms. But I use night crawlers from the bait shop all the time and my box turtles seem to be ok.

Here's a link to an article that says that it's true about the toxicity and feeding to snakes:

http://www.gartersnake.info/articles/2006/feeding-earthworms-red-wigglers-vs-nightcrawlers.php


----------



## Cowboy_Ken (Jan 16, 2015)

Thanks Yvonne for your input. The idea in the other thread indicated that night crawlers and similar “dirt" dwelling worms were ok, but the compost type worms, (no distinction between commercial or homegrown) were a no.


----------



## Yvonne G (Jan 16, 2015)

When I used to buy red worms from the bait shop I noticed they had a strong, acrid smell. My box turtles wouldn't eat them. But when I put them into my own compost pile, eventually they lost that smell and now my turtles eat them.


----------



## Professor Brenda (May 21, 2021)

Hey Yvonne (or anyone else out there), 

Someone on Facebook shared this. I feed my box turtles composting worms from my own compost. They worms are a combination of red wigglers, European night crawlers and Indian worms or common composting worms (Eisenia fetida, eisenia hortensis, Perionyx excavatus). I got my composting worm mix from Jim's worm farm and have been cultivating them in my own composting worm farm for over a year. Are the night crawlers truly toxic? Should I not be feeding them? 

Thanks for any guidance.

Brenda


----------



## jsheffield (May 21, 2021)

I have worms in all of my tortoise enclosures as part of the CUC... I have also seen the torts eat or ignore the worms at various times. I use worms from my compost pile (which is outside, so it's probably a mix of the worms I seeded it with originally and NH dirt worms).

Before adding any of them to my enclosures, where they could get eaten by my torts, I let the torts feast on my family's kitchen waste for a month, to clean out any horrible stuff the worms had been eating before they came to live with me.

I'm not sure of the lifecycle of a worm, but I'm sure that by now the original worms I added have long since died off, and the current ones are generations down the road.

Jamie


----------



## Professor Brenda (May 21, 2021)

jsheffield said:


> I have worms in all of my tortoise enclosures as part of the CUC... I have also seen the torts eat or ignore the worms at various times. I use worms from my compost pile (which is outside, so it's probably a mix of the worms I seeded it with originally and NH dirt worms).
> 
> Before adding any of them to my enclosures, where they could get eaten by my torts, I let the torts feast on my family's kitchen waste for a month, to clean out any horrible stuff the worms had been eating before they came to live with me.
> 
> ...


Mine have been in my compost bin for over a year. So I agree, any toxic eaten stuff is long gone. Apparently, according to the image, it is not just what they may have ingested but the secretions the species emits. Glad to hear others have turtles eating night crawlers, too with no ill effects.


----------



## Maro2Bear (May 21, 2021)

Just remember, there’s a big difference between “nightcrawlers” and the “red wrigglers” that ppl (including me) have in their composting bins.

Just want to make sure that we are comparing and talking about the same things.


----------



## ZenHerper (May 21, 2021)

You have to see and analyze a first-hand source for this kind of thing...F*ceplace is not at all a reliable source for facts.

Just saying...


----------



## ZenHerper (May 21, 2021)

This seems to be some source material. I have not had a chance to review it:









(PDF) Earthworm-Derived Pore-Forming Toxin Lysenin and Screening of Its Inhibitors


PDF | Lysenin is a pore-forming toxin from the coelomic fluid of earthworm Eisenia foetida. This protein specifically binds to sphingomyelin and induces... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net





Something to consider as you read - feeding something through the digestive organs is not alaways the same as injecting it into some other tissue...


----------



## Professor Brenda (May 21, 2021)

Maro2Bear said:


> Just remember, there’s a big difference between “nightcrawlers” and the “red wrigglers” that ppl (including me) have in their composting bins.
> 
> Just want to make sure that we are comparing and talking about the same things.


According to the Toxic vs safe image, they are both toxic. According to Uncle Jim's worm farm, I have both in my compost bin.


----------



## Professor Brenda (May 21, 2021)

ZenHerper said:


> You have to see and analyze a first-hand source for this kind of thing...F*ceplace is not at all a reliable source for facts.
> 
> Just saying...


Completely agree. That is precisely why I am asking here. LOL


----------



## Professor Brenda (May 21, 2021)

To add to the agreement of Fbook info is questionable. I asked for documentation to support their statement, 'cus that is what professors do (LOL). I got two conflicting statements from the same admin of the box turtle FB page. First "I agree, if Uncle Jim does composting worms, they are not safe for our reptiles. Please do not feed.", then "Earthworms are fine as long as not from the wild." And All this was after I stated in my initial post and reiterated that the worms had been in my safe compost bins for over a year. 

I give up on Fb advise. Sticking with textbooks, reputable websites, and you guys. Yvonne said they were safe in a previous post in this thread, years ago. Yvonne has been my go-to for box turtle info so far. 

I also found, https://www.boxturtles.com/what-do-...n2UsRFImyEQaQfN-S_BDv7HmZV7uERV0Shzjc8Na6bpVM. Has good info. I have emailed the owner of the site and requested any citations/references he can provide. 

In the article from ZenHerper above, (and thank you for that) it states "Lysenin (the yellow secretion from earthworms) is likely to be an inflammatory agent." As ZenHerpner said, being injected with it and eating it may produce very different results. Also, the article is lysenin injected into sheep, mammals. Reptiles may process it differently. This article does help give an a possible origin to the idea that certain species of earthworms can be toxic. So, thank you for that. 

My final statement on the Fb page was this: "Thank you all for a good discussion. FYI, more info in the following reference Ernst, C., and Lovich, L. (2009) Turtles of the United States and Canada, second edition. The Johns Hopkins University Press. Baltimore, Maryland. pp.422-424"

The above reference is a Biology course textbook. It lists earthworms (lumbricidae) in the diet and feeding behavior section as prey they eat in the wild. It does not list any species of such anywhere stating that they are toxic or unsafe even when discussing specific box turtle species preferences for certain food items in the wild and examination of stomach contents. So I feel confident stating I am safe to feed to my box turtles, my earthworms raised in my compost bin. (The professor has now left the building)

As always, thank you all for your input. 
And miles to go before I sleep. 

Peace out friends. 
Brenda


----------



## Professor Brenda (May 21, 2021)

ZenHerper said:


> This seems to be some source material. I have not had a chance to review it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for this.


----------



## PJay (May 22, 2021)

I'm not prepared to offer sources on the worm war but I am a member of many Fbook turtle groups, have been following the argument for a few years now and can help clarify the battlefront as it applies to prior comments in this thread.

There are those who claim that red wrigglers (Eisenia fetida) and also, but to a lesser degree, the European nightcrawler (Eisenia hortensis_) _are toxic to turtles. They are campaigning to stop people from offering them to turtles. They also say that North American worms (Lumbricus terrestris,) also referred to as nightcrawlers, are safe to offer. 

I act on my own conclusions based on casual experimentation with my turtles but would love it if there were some real scientific evidence for guidance.


----------



## Blackdog1714 (May 23, 2021)

Worms are what they eat so give good clean detritus and you get good clean worms. I mean just look at what they do to livestock to finish it quicker. So it’s safe to assume any commercially available food stuff has got all kinds of nasty in it


----------



## Professor Brenda (May 23, 2021)

PJay said:


> I'm not prepared to offer sources on the worm war but I am a member of many Fbook turtle groups, have been following the argument for a few years now and can help clarify the battlefront as it applies to prior comments in this thread.
> 
> There are those who claim that red wrigglers (Eisenia fetida) and also, but to a lesser degree, the European nightcrawler (Eisenia hortensis_) _are toxic to turtles. They are campaigning to stop people from offering them to turtles. They also say that North American worms (Lumbricus terrestris,) also referred to as nightcrawlers, are safe to offer.
> 
> I act on my own conclusions based on casual experimentation with my turtles but would love it if there were some real scientific evidence for guidance.


Thank you. Yes, wouldn't it be nice to have official testing and data.


----------



## Professor Brenda (May 23, 2021)

Blackdog1714 said:


> Worms are what they eat so give good clean detritus and you get good clean worms. I mean just look at what they do to livestock to finish it quicker. So it’s safe to assume any commercially available food stuff has got all kinds of nasty in it


So true. Thank you. I think I will contact a Doctoral student at A&M University, Texas and ask them to run this experiment for their dissertation. LOL. I'm sure not going to do it.


----------



## Blackdog1714 (May 23, 2021)

Professor Brenda said:


> So true. Thank you. I think I will contact a Doctoral student at A&M University, Texas and ask them to run this experiment for their dissertation. LOL. I'm sure not going to do it.


I think I hear a lead balloon dropping! ?


----------

