# WHAT CAUSES THIS?



## ALDABRAMAN (Jun 28, 2015)




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## leigti (Jun 28, 2015)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> View attachment 136659


I can't really tell what it is.


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## Alaskamike (Jun 29, 2015)

I'm certainly no expert, but I've seen that before I believe. That looks like the opposite of a raised, or pyramided scute; a depressed one. The only cases I've seen of this have been i sulcata that had MBD. It followed a bow in plastron. I would suspect an underlying spinal /bone problem.


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## Yvonne G (Jun 29, 2015)

I know in the Manouria species if you keep them too dry they get the reversed pyramiding. But it usually happens in very young tortoises.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Jun 29, 2015)

Alaskamike said:


> That looks like the opposite of a raised, or pyramided scute; a depressed one.



~ Exactly!


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## ALDABRAMAN (Jun 29, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> if you keep them too dry they get the reversed pyramiding.



~ That could be it. Any idea why some pyramid and others reverse pyramid? (or what cause the difference)


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## tortadise (Jun 29, 2015)

I've had a good long look at some shells that I had my taxidermy friend finish. Each species had issues in which came to the fatal end of the tortoise unfortunately. It's very interesting seeing from the inside with numerous issues. One shell had this on a Sulcata, and some shells he did years back of deceased impressed tortoises. (I use impressed because of there name and classic "impressed scutes" along with the other 2 species of Manouria). Well anyways. In the Sulcata shell that had an "impressed" scute the bone was severely thin at the areola underneath and had very large spider bone marrow cavities. As if the shell was trying to heal itself from collapsing in on itself. But when looking at the Manouria in comparison that natural "impress" especially the impressed tortoise. The bone was dense, and marrow cavities were thinly spider webbed as a normal healthy specimen would show. So the outer keratin layer on Manouria seems to impress where the inner layer of bone, marrow, and spinal bone structure are smooth and allocated perfectly. What I don't know is exactly how this occurs, and or what forces it to occur. MBD, calcium deficiency, hyper and or hypo vitamintosis D, lack of moisture(allowing plasticity of keratin to define and develop in odd ways of depression growth or "impressed" growth) I don't know. But sure is interesting. What I'd like to see is some radiographs and ultrasounds on these animals. Perhaps the living specimen can enlighten this odd growth, and in comparison to mineral levels, diet, and possibly over all husbandry.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Jun 29, 2015)

tortadise said:


> "impressed scutes"



~ Fantastic response, thank you.


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## tortadise (Jun 29, 2015)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> ~ Fantastic response, thank you.


Are these on yours? Orrrrr are you window shopping again?


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## ALDABRAMAN (Jun 29, 2015)

tortadise said:


> Are these on yours? Orrrrr are you window shopping again?



~ They are not ours, random pictures taken from the internet. However, we have had a few customers notice this growth change after the baby has left our custody, care and control. One common denominator, with what our customers share, is a change of habitat and food sources seem to influence this growth and development change.


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## tortadise (Jun 29, 2015)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> ~ They are not ours, random pictures taken from the internet. However, we have had a few customers notice this growth change after the baby has left our custody, care and control. One common denominator, with what our customers share, is a change of habitat and food sources seem to influence this growth and development change.


Hmmmmm. See when Wendy contacted me about the goiters in Galapagos tortoises. I wondered if perhaps the diet from certain species or lineage in which the captive ones, and or LTC wild collected ones were compared with those of the island ancestors. As many sub species that Nigra has, each island displays a variety of different faunas. Some consume more succulents and leaves, while others consume more grasses and weeds. Similar with the archipelago in the Indian Ocean on the atoll. Like the smaller Aldabrachelys gigantea hololissa. I'd speculate and seem to think my opinion on the manor is in relation to food consumption. The bigger of both Aldabra and Galapagos are more grass eaters and occasional fruit(cactus shrubbery) where as the smaller saddle back Galapagos and cerf island Aldabra consume more fruits, cactus, and larger leafed plants as they're in a different habitats/ecosystem. It's very difficult getting ahold of the Darwin center. Which is why I think Wendy didn't pursue it with the goiter study. But I'd most certainly be entertained to see some results in research on that respect. 

Perhaps this has something very similar. As you stated ounce the animals were relinquished from your control and husbandry techniques some displayed this appearance. One thing I have noticed too with my chunky butt blossom. Is she(strongly thinking it's a female, Very very shy and tiny tiny tail) has kinda a sloped back and bowling balls everywhere else. A lot I see can be quite round and very high in dimensional proportions. Tortoise growth is indeed a very under researched study. I just don't know at all. But my speculations may be on to something. 

Have you ever considered doing a generic analysis of your heard Greg?


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## ALDABRAMAN (Jun 29, 2015)

tortadise said:


> Hmmmmm. See when Wendy contacted me about the goiters in Galapagos tortoises.



~ She asked if we had any thoughts and if we noticed any goiters in our aldabras. My only thought might be diet, however rarely hear or see any aldabras with the goiter issues!

~ Here is one I took a few years back of a large male, truly the first one i have ever actually seen.


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## tortadise (Jun 29, 2015)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> ~ She asked if we had any thoughts and if we noticed any goiters in our aldabras. My only thought might be diet, however rarely hear or see any aldabras with the goiter issues!


Yeah it does seem to be Galapagos issue. I've seen goiters on the specimens at the ft.worth zoo. Those Aldabras have been in the country for many many decades. Very mature, very large males and females. In fact one if I recall has one of those impressed scutes towards the rear. The smaller female. Hmmm


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## ALDABRAMAN (Jun 29, 2015)

tortadise said:


> One thing I have noticed too with my chunky butt blossom. Is she(strongly thinking it's a female, Very very shy and tiny tiny tail) has kinda a sloped back and bowling balls everywhere else. A lot I see can be quite round and very high in dimensional proportions. Tortoise growth is indeed a very under researched study. I just don't know at all. But my speculations may be on to something.



~ We have seen those also, we trend to produce the higher domed shells, however have recently seen some flatter shells in our hatchlings. We are thinking maybe Alfa's influence.


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## Alaskamike (Jun 29, 2015)

I'd swear that one on the left was my "Cupcake". Lol. 
What an interesting discussion. I'm learning more and more about the development of the shell. The dynamics between alpha and beta keratin, influences of hydration, nutrition and exercise played in the arena of genetics is fascinating. 

The more I know , the more I want to know.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Jul 13, 2015)

Genetics may be very important here, not just diet, humidity, climate etc.
if a tortoise has a genetic deformity that is unfavourable to survival, in nature it will probably die.
I captivity there is more chance of the animal being nursed through life and potentially breeding and passing on the hereditary genes for this deformity.
if the trait is recessive in nature it may not show at all in the next generation, but in the third generation where two parents carrying the recessive genes produce offspring, one in four will show the deformity in their growth.
I think this is useful to remember often when we talk about why individuals within a clutch may be different from each other and from the parents.
it's often the grandparents (or even further back) that we need to examine and this would usually prove next to impossible, i am guessing, especially with the uncertainty of "who is the father" in groups of tortoises.


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