# Brand New Hatchling Care



## Tom (Aug 1, 2012)

I see a recurring issue that I am unable to explain, and would like to get input from you fantastic people. I primarily see this issue with sulcatas, but it is possible with any species. I think this is due to the large number of sulcatas bred, their incorrect status as a "desert" animal and the resulting lack of care, and their low cost, relatively speaking. Other tortoises, like Testudo sp., for example are not usually subjected to the same treatment and conditions.

The issue is this: Why do babies from the same group and same conditions show such variability in their survival rate and overall health. Frequently two people will buy clutchmate tortoises out of the same cage in the same pet shop, and one will thrive and the other will not. The most obvious answer is that they receive different care after they leave the shop. Okay, fair enough, but what if there are several and they are all in the same large cage, getting exactly the same routine, foods and temps? This happens even when they are very young, sometimes just a couple of weeks old.

As usual, I have a couple of possible theories. Please shoot them down if they are wrong.

Theory 1: It has come to my attention that a lot of big breeders don't use a "brooder box" type of set up. They leave their babies in the incubator until they absorb their yolk sac and are ready to go into a regular enclosure. This usually takes around a week. They don't offer any food or water during this time since the babies still have a yolk sac that they are living off of. By contrast, as soon as my babies step out of their egg, I squirt them off and put them in a soak, while I prepare their brooder box. I use damp paper towels and I put the remainder of their eggshell after a rinse, and some greens of some sort into the brooder box with them. My babies eat within days of hatching and without some food in there they try to eat the paper towels. I know a breeder who incubates in the ground. When he digs up a nest to check it after the hatchlings all come up, he finds NOTHING in the nest. No egg shells, no dud eggs, no left over poop from the mother, nothing but dirt. His babies eat everything before exiting the nest. He does not know how long they sit down there after hatching. So what do the babies left in the incubator eat? They must be eating their substrate. Vermiculite in most cases. Even my babies, who only spend hours in their incubation chamber after stepping out of their egg, will often poop out some vermiculite when they finally make their first poops after a week or so. I see this because I soak them daily and they poop in their soak water.
So theory one is intestinal obstruction. Some eat more substrate than others. Some pass the incubation media without issue. Others are blocked up and fail to thrive. Thus far I have not found anyone willing to sacrifice their baby to science to test this theory. A necropsy would reveal the presence or absence of any blockage.

Theory two: Chronic dehydration. The question is why do some succumb and not others? I have a possible answer. Many large breeders don't use a brooder box. This means their babies hatch and then go about a week with no water. They still have a yolk sac and are in the humidity of the incubator, so probably not a big deal. Many big breeders still use dry substrate and only soak their babies once a week. So let's say tortoise "A" hatches on Monday. Tortoise "B" hatches on Sunday.They sit in their incubator for about a week until they absorb their yolk sacs. The breeder soaks all his babies every Monday morning. He sees tortoise B is ready to go a week after hatching and puts him in the normal baby enclosure on Sunday evening. Tortoise B then gets soaked with the rest of the crowd on Monday morning. Now its Monday evening and a check reveals that tortoise A is ready to go, and so he's put in the big dry baby enclosure with the hot light, dry substrate and no water bowl. He goes another full seven days in his dry enclosure before his first soak or drink of water. Danny (a former very knowledgable and experienced TFO member and moderator) once made the statement that in these hot dry enclosures a tiny hatchling can literally dehydrate over night. So seven days and nights of this really ought to do a number on their kidneys and liver.

This sort of routine could explain why we see such a variation in clutchmate hatchlings from the "same" enclosure, conditions and diet. I don't see this sort of variation in MY hatchlings or in the hatchlings of many other breeders who soak early and often. Multiple other breeders have shared with me recently that they truly believe the first few days are critical for new hatchlings. My observations tell me the same.

Again necropsy would reveal the state of the kidneys, liver and other internal organs which would give good insight into determining if theory two is correct.


Discussion and ignorance destruction are encouraged, as usual.


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## MooingTricycle (Aug 1, 2012)

Im seriously glad you are here sharing your information, it is all just absolutely incredible stuff. Screen shotting this so i have it always in the future! Thanks!


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## Neal (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't necessarily disagree with your theories, but I can't really except them as plausible without some more hard facts. As you know, I am a bit of a skeptic with everything. So I read your theories and I have to consider how reasonable it is to assume that MOST of the large breeders actually keep their hatchlings in an incubator long enough that the tortoises consume enough medium to cause intestinal obstruction, or that they only soak all of their hatchlings once a week. 

Theories of my own I'd like to add, even though they also do not have any hard facts to support:

1 - Just like humans, no two tortoises hatch out with the same degree of health and with an equal chance of surviving to adult hood. Simply put, a hatchling that does poorly compared to a sibling that does well, was just not born as healthy.

2 - The health of the parents comes in to play. To what degree, and what ailments from an adult would impact it's offspring I don't know. But, it makes sense to me that an unhealthy tortoise that, by chance, produces offspring, would not produce the same level of consistent healthy hatchlings as would an adult in great health.

3 - I suspect that the artificial incubation process would come into play in this scenario. Like point #2 - to what extent I do not know and can't really speculate. All I can say is that the clutches I have left in the ground vs. the ones I have dug up and incubated artificially have been 10 times more active, robust, and apparently healthier. 

On principle, I do agree with you 100% that the first moments, days, and weeks after hatching are the most critical in a tortoises life. Especially when it comes to hydration.


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## wellington (Aug 1, 2012)

I have no experience with hatching torts. But I do have experience with several other animals. I personally think that all theories play a roll. However, I think Tom's theories probably happen more often then Neals. You can see that the hot and dry is present in a lot of retail breeders that advertise on this forum. Their babies are always pyramided, even though they are a member of this forum and should know better. People only looking for profit will do it the cheapest way and the less labor intensive way. As in all animals and even humans, the first few days are very important, even in the first few weeks. It is also true, in other animals at least that the unhealthy will more then likely produce unhealthy offspring. Not always, but usually more then not, just look at puppy mill puppies. To me, after learning from this forum, the best thing to do before one buys a hatchling, is to ask how it was hatch and raised for the first few weeks and get all the details. The bad thing is, a lot of people selling torts didn't hatch them and didn't care to ask how they were hatched. I don't think any theory can be wrong, unless every death was investigated. Just my opinion.


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## tortadise (Aug 1, 2012)

Im not sure how we as the great care takers are going to enforce the knowledge and new regimens to large breeders or retailers that still do the "dry" method. I couldnt imagine not soaking or spraying my hatchlings and going through the ways I do to get them as well off as I know they can be. I was at a reptile show last weekend, and saw numerous baby sulcatas and leopards, and just stood around to see what they were going to say to buyers. Well same ol thing. "uhhh you just put them on pellets, and they get all their water from the food". I spent about 3 hours talking to consumers instead of the vendor, because talking to them I was shot down really quick. But I had 50 of my babies that I took to supply a KNOWLEDGABLE vendor, and simply showed the differnce to the vendors and consumers the difference. Mine were at 1 moonth out of the incubator, putting them at 5-6 weeks old, the other vendors had 2-3 month old ones NOT EVEN close to half the size of mine, and just straight upright growth(pyramiding at its finest). 

I know this year I have tried a different method from the usual brooder box, and went to an open top method, but its still working PERFECTLY. Its all hyrdation and micro climate scenarios. 

1. DEEP loose substrate that holds moisture well. The hatchlings will burrow in the substrate and utilize the humidity in the substrate.
2.SOAKING 3-4 times a day until neonate growth is outgrown into juvinile. The earliest stages are the quickiest they will grow so they need hydration for good kidney and liver values to keep up with stabilized growth.
3.GOOD DIET Pretty self explanitory, dark leafy greens, NO FRUIT, mazuri 1-2 times a week Mixed with a puree of cactus and flowers added to the green mixture. Ween to grass grazing when reaching stabilized size, Usually around 3-4".
4. REPEAT AS NECCISARY.


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## GBtortoises (Aug 1, 2012)

I wholeheartedly agree with Tom's methods of initial hatchling care. I basically do the same that he does nearly step by step with some variation:

Imediately upon the tortoise completely leaving the egg I first soak them in shallow, tempid water. Almost every single one drinks everytime. I then place them in a brooder with about 3" of sphagnum moss at about 83-84 degrees and 75% humidity. The moss was previously dampened throughout. I also place whatever is left of the egg shell, including the inner layer, into one of the corners of the container within the brooder. I spray the moss and allow air exchange twice daily. I check each individual tortoise daily for egg sac absorbtion. This is usually complete in 3-5 days. Most of my hatchlings rarely have much of a yolk sac left once out of the egg and I believe this to be normal and correct. In the nest most of the egg sac should be expended working to get out of the egg shell with the remainder being expended (along with consumption of the eggshell and other nutrients) to dig out of and escape the nest itself. I do not feed my baby tortoises while they're in the brooder but do so immediately upon taking them out of the brooder. I generally keep them indoors for about 7-10 days mainly to observe them eating and drinking on their own. I also continue to soak them once a day to allow them additional access to water. The substrate in their "after brooder" enclosure is organic soil and coconut coir mix which I keep slightly moist and spray twice daily. Lighting consists of a 40 watt incandescent bulb for basking which at the right height produces a localized basking temperature of about 90 degrees. I also provide UV in the form of a florescent tube. I am absolutely against using very hot, very intense MVB lights for hatchlings and young tortoises for a several reasons. After about 7-10 days they go outdoors 24/7 for the remainder of the summer and are kept exactly like the adults are but with their enclosures being sprayed down more often. 
I firmly believe that the cause of the majority of hatchlings not thriving and/or dying can be attributed to initial care, especially within the first 1-2 weeks of hatching. As well as them being kept much too consistently hot overall and in many case too dry, resulting in a constant state of dehydration. 
While our methods vary some I think Tom and I have the same general idea in mind. Speaking only for myself by using the above method, after hatching thousand of tortoises over the years I can count the number losses as hatchlings and young tortoises on two hands. Of which none of those I can attribute to initial failure and/or dehydration.


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## RonHays (Aug 1, 2012)

Great thread! I had so many questions just answered for me. Now I have a general idea of what to do when my redfoots hatch. Very informative. Thanks guys!

Btw... Can this thread be pinned as a sticky in the breeding sub forum?


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