# calcium and vitamin supplements



## biglove4bigtorts (Apr 19, 2010)

I am posting this here, b/c I know that some keepers don't supplement, some do, and some use different amounts on different schedules, so I imagine ther would be some opposing answers.

I have, thus far, not supplemented my Manouria emys phayrei and they are about a year old. Ihave only had them a week and do plan to suuplement, but I am not sure yet as to how much, what products, and when. I do provide UVB in the form of a 10.0 flourescent, since they are shade lovers, I saw no need for them to get mercury vapor UVB. I will also house them outdoors, when the temps are acceptable to them.

I do feed 90% ''field greens'', that is wild greens, harvested from areas away from chemicals and automobiles, such as brambles, dandelion, plantain, thistle, mulberry, bittercress, wild rose, mullein, and other ''weed''. I feel, since these are grown in soild that have not been depleted by being over-cultivated and overused, that the diet already has a decent level of calcium, vitamins, and minerals. With that it mind, I think I am treating supplements more as an insurance that they get what they need and not relying on the supplements to supply the daily intake of CA and other nutrients. In Summer, when housed outdoors, I think calcium twice a week, sprinkled on the food is adequate and maybe a weekly dusting of a vitamin supplement. In the Winter, when I rely more on store-bought greens and artificial light, I think twice weekly with calcium and one of those days with the addition of vitamin D will be sufficients and maybe twice weekly with the vitamin supplement or 3 times a week with some bee pollen, in place of the vitamin supplement.

How does this compare to everyone elses' regime'/ thinking?


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## Madkins007 (Apr 19, 2010)

This is my 2 cents worth...

1. Grocery store greens and foods tend to be much less nutritious than garden or wild foods. Some of that is due to the processing, shipping, etc. Some is because grocery store stuff is bred for durability and profitability first, taste a far second, and nutritional values hardly at all.

2. We will probably NEVER offer as much variety as these animals can get in the wild.

3. We really do not know the details of what their dietary needs really are. What is their true vitamin D need? How much iron?

4. Most human nutrition scientists tell us we really don't need to take vitamins as long as we have an even moderately balanced diet, and that many Americans have too much of some nutrients. Many reptile experts say the same the reptiles.

So... I think of supplements as insurance. If I am low in my week's Ca: P, I add a small pinch of calcium powder. If it has been a while since they saw natural or UVB light, I toss in more mushrooms than usual (and I already know that the vitamin D2 in mushrooms is not as good as D3, but it seems to work.) Every couple weeks, I add a small bit of a crushed human multi-vitamin (the same ones I use every week or two.)

A moderate amount of excess calcium will urinate out as long as the tortoise is properly hydrated, so no big deal there. The water soluble vitamins- B, C, etc., will as well.

In fact, the biggest concerns are the fat soluble vitamins- A, D, and E since they build up in tissues. It is a bit worrisome since so many reptile products have a LOT of A in them. The rule of thumb that zoos use is to balance A, D, and E in ratios of 100:10:1 to avoid problems.


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## biglove4bigtorts (Apr 19, 2010)

I agree with you on many pointo what you said; herbivores can make their own vitamin A with the precursor beta-carotene, found in things like sweet potatos and carrots. With that said, carnivores and insectovores need preformed vitamin A, some of which is concentrated in the eyes of the insects and other creatures they eat whole. There is much paranoia about overdoseing vitamin A, but it it easier to underdose some reptiles, IME and an overdose requires a very high dosage.....unfortunatley the symptoms of both hypo and hyper vitaminosis A are identicle...just to complicate things further. For vitamin supplementation in sensitive animals ( I find reptiles from montane rainforest to have sensitive kidneys), I like to use dendrocare, which is formulated for very tiny dartfrogs. There is little risk of overdosing with this product and I have used it on sensitive species with success in the past. I think UVB and D3 needs differ with animal's age, weight, hydration status, temperatures, activity level, breeding, and other factors. I think it is easy to overdo it, but important to provide some. Ideally, like in humans, we should aim to provide the most nutrients from the diet.


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