# Leoparcata tortoise. Tell me what you think.



## kazjimmy (Nov 19, 2018)

I know some of the breeder like to mix breed their sulcata and leopard together. Let me think what you think.


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## no one (Nov 19, 2018)

I don't see why this is a good thing. We should not mix species. Why would we? Cause humans always want something different. Have something special... I don't get it. But that is just me. 
Isn't a Tortoise special enough just because he is a Tortoise?


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## no one (Nov 19, 2018)

In the process of breeding you put two different species together that normally should not be housed together. That is another concern for me.


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## Jacqui (Nov 19, 2018)

Does it ever happen naturally in nature?


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## Yvonne G (Nov 19, 2018)

I think the resultant animal is beautiful, but I'm not for it.


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## JoesMum (Nov 19, 2018)

I'm not a fan of interbreeding species either


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## Tom (Nov 19, 2018)

Jacqui said:


> Does it ever happen naturally in nature?


Not for these two species. No overlap.


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## Tom (Nov 19, 2018)

kazjimmy said:


> I know some of the breeder like to mix breed their sulcata and leopard together. Let me think what you think.



Species should never be mixed and I abhor hybrids. I don't like hybridization in fish, birds, snakes, tortoises or anything else.


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## kazjimmy (Nov 19, 2018)

Ok. I think 90% of tortoise fans don’t like the mix breed. Let me throw another question . Why human can accept mix dog,cat,bird,horse these kind of animal but not reptile?


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## KarenSoCal (Nov 19, 2018)

People start doing this with the hopes of getting the best of both species.
What happens when they get the worst and create a deformed monster? This time it's a beautiful looking tort, but how about inside?
Is it going to be the beginning of deafness in dalmatians, dysplasia in large dogs, breathing difficulties in pug nosed breeds, aggression? I wonder what all can go wrong with a tortoise irresponsibly bred??
Leave them as God made them!


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## JoesMum (Nov 19, 2018)

kazjimmy said:


> Ok. I think 90% of tortoise fans don’t like the mix breed. Let me throw another question . Why human can accept mix dog,cat,bird,horse these kind of animal but not reptile?


Because all dogs, cats and horses are breeds created by humans. They're all the same the genetic species.


Leopard Tortoises and Sulcatas are all different genetic species. They are not different breeds.

I wouldn't condone it in different species of birds birds either.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 19, 2018)

kazjimmy said:


> Ok. I think 90% of tortoise fans don’t like the mix breed. Let me throw another question . Why human can accept mix dog,cat,bird,horse these kind of animal but not reptile?


We don't. Most humans don't accept inter species dog breeding either. dog/coyote, dog/wolf, etc. I don't like it. If you're talking collie, terrier, bloodhound, all those are the same species.


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## kazjimmy (Nov 19, 2018)

KarenSoCal said:


> People start doing this with the hopes of getting the best of both species.
> What happens when they get the worst and create a deformed monster? This time it's a beautiful looking tort, but how about inside?
> Is it going to be the beginning of deafness in dalmatians, dysplasia in large dogs, breathing difficulties in pug nosed breeds, aggression? I wonder what all can go wrong with a tortoise irresponsibly bred??
> Leave them as God made them!



Look around you. Aren’t we the God?


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## JoesMum (Nov 19, 2018)

kazjimmy said:


> Look around you. Aren’t we the God?


We do too much damage to this planet already. No we shouldn't be playing God


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## KarenSoCal (Nov 19, 2018)

kazjimmy said:


> Look around you. Aren’t we the God?


No, some just dare to presume so. That was the start of all evil in the world.

Back to torts, please...


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## kazjimmy (Nov 19, 2018)

Yvonne G said:


> We don't. Most humans don't accept inter species dog breeding either. dog/coyote, dog/wolf, etc. I don't like it. If you're talking collie, terrier, bloodhound, all those are the same species.



Generally speaking. Dogs were from wolf. After thousands years, now they become our best friend because of human needed. But I’m not discuss dog history. 

My real question is why we do not like cross breed tortoise if we could. Look at the turtle industry and snake industry. Shall we think twice?


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## JoesMum (Nov 19, 2018)

kazjimmy said:


> Generally speaking. Dogs were from wolf. After thousands years, now they become our best friend because of human needed. But I’m not discuss dog history.
> 
> My real question is why we do not like cross breed tortoise if we could. Look at the turtle industry and snake industry. Shall we think twice?


Turtles, snakes and other wildlife aren't industry. They are creatures that some people bring into their care.

And we have told you that we don't agree with cross breeding species. You don't agree with us: that's your prerogative. It's not up for discussion as far as I am concerned as I will not be convinced otherwise and I suspect you won't either. So with that, I shall leave this thread


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## kazjimmy (Nov 19, 2018)

JoesMum said:


> Because all dogs, cats and horses are breeds created by humans. They're all the same the genetic species.
> 
> 
> Leopard Tortoises and Sulcatas are all different genetic species. They are not different breeds.
> ...



Isn’t sulcata and leopards somehow the same genetic species?


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## JoesMum (Nov 19, 2018)

kazjimmy said:


> Isn’t sulcata and leopards somehow the same genetic species?


No. Completely different

Leopard tortoise = Stigmochelys pardalis
Sulcata = Centrochelys sulcata


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## kazjimmy (Nov 19, 2018)

JoesMum said:


> Turtles, snakes and other wildlife aren't industry. They are creatures that some people bring into their care.
> 
> And we have told you that we don't agree with cross breeding species. You don't agree with us: that's your prerogative. It's not up for discussion as far as I am concerned as I will not be convinced otherwise and I suspect you won't either. So with that, I shall leave this thread



Plz excuse my English. I am talking about people cross breeding turtles and making them a new creatures. I am taking about human hatching albino snakes. 

I’m open to all the possibilities. However I am a pure breed fans. 

Thank you.


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## kazjimmy (Nov 19, 2018)

JoesMum said:


> No. Completely different
> 
> Leopard tortoise = Stigmochelys pardalis
> Sulcata = Centrochelys sulcata



I’m not a scientist so I have to agree with you. 
How do you define sulcata cross breed with leopard tortoise? If human keep leoparcata for few more generation. Shall we give them a new species name?


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## Tom (Nov 19, 2018)

kazjimmy said:


> Plz excuse my English. I am talking about people cross breeding turtles and making them a new creatures. I am taking about human hatching albino snakes.
> 
> I’m open to all the possibilities. However I am a pure breed fans.



When two different species are bred together and have offspring, those offspring are called "hybrids". They don't ever get a new scientific name, even if they keep making babies for decades. And most hybrids are not capable of reproduction. Mules, being an example.

An albino is just a color morph. There is not necessarily any mixing of species to get different color morphs. An albino sulcata is still just a sulcata, not a hybrid.


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## wellington (Nov 19, 2018)

kazjimmy said:


> Ok. I think 90% of tortoise fans don’t like the mix breed. Let me throw another question . Why human can accept mix dog,cat,bird,horse these kind of animal but not reptile?


Most humans would rather dog, cat, etc, not be mixed. There are a lot of idiots and/or irresponsible humans in this world. I'm never for mixing species/breeds.


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## kazjimmy (Nov 19, 2018)

wellington said:


> Most humans would rather dog, cat, etc, not be mixed. There are a lot of idiots and/or irresponsible humans in this world. I'm never for mixing species/breeds.



Dogs and cats are mixed breed. I want to know what you think about the mix breed of tortoise.


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## Cheryl Hills (Nov 19, 2018)

I beleave they already have. Why do you keep asking the same question?


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## wellington (Nov 19, 2018)

kazjimmy said:


> Dogs and cats are mixed breed. I want to know what you think about the mix breed of tortoise.


It's in the last line of my last post. I'm never for mixing species/breeds. That means any animal.


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## Tom (Nov 19, 2018)

kazjimmy said:


> Dogs and cats are mixed breed. I want to know what you think about the mix breed of tortoise.


There cannot be a mixed breed of tortoise. There are no tortoise breeds. There are only different species of tortoises.

Dog breeds are all the same species. Different dogs are all one species. Different tortoises are all different species.

A dog is one species. Canis familiaris. A mountain lion is a different species. Felis concolor. These are not "breeds". They are different species.

In the same way, a leopard tortoise is one species, and a sulcata tortoise is a different species.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 19, 2018)

kazjimmy said:


> Dogs and cats are mixed breed. I want to know what you think about the mix breed of tortoise.


yes, dogs are MIXED BREEDS, but they are NOT mixed SPECIES! There are NO tortoise BREEDS, only species. I suppose if you breed different sub species of tortoise, like the different sub species of hermanni, it would be similar to interbreeding dog breeds, but the resultant offspring would be called intergrades.


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## Tim Carlisle (Nov 19, 2018)

There can be an entire new niche market out there for this. Designer tortoises. I can mix two or more breeds together, give them a cutesy / fancy name, and sell them at a premium just like they do with dogs. I can call my new shop "Mizcreant's Miserables". Folks seem to want to spend more if your name sounds French. Lol


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## KarenSoCal (Nov 19, 2018)

Mizcreant said:


> There can be an entire new niche market out there for this. Designer tortoises. I can mix two or more breeds together, give them a cutesy / fancy name, and sell them at a premium just like they do with dogs. I can call my new shop "Mizcreant's Miserables". Folks seem to want to spend more if your name sounds French. Lol


[emoji23]


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## kazjimmy (Nov 19, 2018)

Interesting discussion. Thank you all.


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## Tim Carlisle (Nov 19, 2018)

kazjimmy said:


> Interesting discussion. Thank you all.


I try, even though I tend to take the topics way out in left field at times.


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## Tom (Nov 19, 2018)

Mizcreant said:


> There can be an entire new niche market out there for this. Designer tortoises. I can mix two or more breeds together, give them a cutesy / fancy name, and sell them at a premium just like they do with dogs. I can call my new shop "Mizcreant's Miserables". Folks seem to want to spend more if your name sounds French. Lol


Sadly, the subject of your joke is precisely the subject of this thread.


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## Markw84 (Nov 20, 2018)

@kazjimmy My biggest issue with this is that I believe we are guardians of turtle and tortoise species / subspecies. Some of the tortoises we keep now have more individuals in captivity than exist in nature. When we mix species and subspecies, we begin the process that could well lead to the total extinction of that animal. Look at leopard tortoises. Many strive to get the South African leopard. We are not even talking subspecies her any more, but a distinct animal many will recognize. However, in the US, it is now extremely hard to find, or know, if an animal is indeed a SA leopard as so many are simply put together with the "regular" leopards, and the recognizable characteristics of what we view as SA are disappearing. Galapagos tortoises in the US are mostly hybrids as well. The few imported years and years ago we kept together with no separation of species. Any successful breeding often produced hybrids to where today, it is very hard to find a true pure species of Galapagos. Order a Mississippi map turtle and you will likely get anything from a Mississippi, to a Sabine, to a False, and every combination of the intergrades. A true Mississippi map with it's striking round pupils is harder and harder to find as breeders simply keep all these species and subspecies together so often.

At the genus level, mixes "should not" produce fertile offspring. So hopefully that will help us keep some forms pure. But at the species and subspecies, and even population level, where we see distinct differences that hold true throughout, I would like to see us do all we can to keep those animals true examples of what exists, or existed, in the wild before we go down that path and realize - they have totally disappeared.


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## drew54 (Nov 20, 2018)

I think where people get confused with this is the lack of understanding of taxonomy. When people hear dog or cat they can recognize two different species, but with other animals it gets difficult. People call apes, gorillas, chimps, etc all monkeys. We know that they are not all monkeys and different species. I see this with turtles and tortoises also. People think all turtles are tortoises and they are all the same and vice versa. 

Most people look at animals and automatically forget about taxonomy. We look at fish as fish, dogs as dogs, birds as birds, etc. When you ask someone what type of animal they are looking at the popular response is "i don't know it's just a bird." 

I believe these terms such as bird, cat, turtle, tortoise, fish, tree, etc. Have become umbrella terms. I think this confuses people when they look at breeds versus a species of an animal. Which is why most people will refer to a different species of tortoise a "breed." 

We have become all too comfortable with umbrella terms that we don't often look at things in detail or as "separate" or "not the same." Everyone outside this forum I have discussed tortoises with have all been confused about the difference between a turtle and tortoise. They also, get confused as to what the difference between species are. I am often asked "other than the different shells what makes this tortoise different from this one? They are all tortoises so they should be the same right?" 

I think that these are innocent mistakes as learning taxonomy is pretty difficult and a lot of Latin names to remember and distinguish between. 

So, my point with this is that we can't always expect people to understand things that are simple or that make perfect sense to us if they are not well versed in those areas. Thus making it the educated persons duty to educate the uneducated. 

Taxonomy is very difficult to understand and try explaining the different species of tortoise and turtle to a child. It's almost impossible. I get many confused looks when I'm asked to explaine something as simple as the difference between a turtle and a tortoise. 

Anyway, breeding different species is s very interesting subject. Much like cloning and designer DNA. Such programs as "the baby maker" and alike are very fascinating, but how ethical is it? 

Breeding different species to me just has too many risks involved. We could kill an entire as species in the process as many people have as already stated.

There runs the risk of genetic mutations that cause diseases and deformities. The process may not even work. It's interesting, but at this point in time I don't think it's very ethical or responsible to do so. There are already too many species of animals going extinct now that I would call it careless and ignorant. It's a cool idea on paper, but the risks are not worth it.


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## Cheryl Hills (Nov 20, 2018)

Well said!


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## TammyJ (Nov 20, 2018)

JoesMum said:


> No. Completely different
> 
> Leopard tortoise = Stigmochelys pardalis
> Sulcata = Centrochelys sulcata


Welcome back!!!


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## mark1 (Nov 20, 2018)

I kinda doubt that many people who breed tortoises and turtles , are able to, and do , raise hatchling to adult hood , don't realize there are different species ? as far as sub species , I believe many are hard for folks who actually study such things to definitively separate without dna , and is the reason I myself believe that as far as replenishing endangered wild population with captive bred pets a half a world away is not doable …….


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## turtlesteve (Nov 20, 2018)

It's interesting to me that the topic of hybrids is so contentious. Hybridization of plants for ornamental purposes is ubiquitous and generally regarded as beneficial, and conservation projects are generally supported (for example, trying to back-cross hybrid chestnut trees to obtain a nearly pure american chestnut with blight resistance). What about hybrid food crops?

Then there's the program to save the "Floreana" galapagos tortoise (lonesome george's race) by back-breeding hybrids.... but the project acknowledges that the resulting tortoises will always be hybrids. Are we supposed to view the effort negatively? Or is this OK because we're conserving genetic diversity?

It seems like the hybridization is only frowned upon in this case because it's done to suit the desires of man - but this is the same motivation for myriad other things done to suit human desires. I'm not staking a strong opinion, but it seems to me that being ideologically consistent would require one to be opposed to quite a wide array of things. 

I suppose I go by a "do no harm" criterion, but it's not always easy to draw the line.

Steve


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## mark1 (Nov 20, 2018)

turtlesteve said:


> Then there's the program to save the "Floreana" galapagos tortoise (lonesome george's race) by back-breeding hybrids.... but the project acknowledges that the resulting tortoises will always be hybrids. Are we supposed to view the effort negatively? Or is this OK because we're conserving genetic diversity?
> 
> Steve



imo , you cannot save a species without maintaining genetic integrity , not diversity ? there are species that are resultant of hybridization , but they are considered neither species they resulted from , they are a species unto themselves …….


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## turtlesteve (Nov 20, 2018)

mark1 said:


> imo , you cannot save a species without maintaining genetic integrity , not diversity ? there are species that are resultant of hybridization , but they are considered neither species they resulted from , they are a species unto themselves …….



They would eventually be classified as a new species, if they are distinct enough and unable to continue interbreeding with the original parent species. It's also extremely common for species to naturally have "contamination" from past hybridization (humans are one example here).

I personally don't find the leoparcata hybrids all that attractive - maybe they look a hair nicer than the average sulcata, but the patterning from the leopard parent is washed out and indistinct. But it's somewhat of a personal preference rather than a value statement. If people are going to breed them, it would be most ethical to breed only the 50:50 genetic ratio. There is potential harm in producing hybrids that could not be distinguished without genetic testing.


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## drew54 (Nov 20, 2018)

It's very unlikely that we can replenish a population of a species under any circumstances. Not with the animal trade, poaching, and the rate of survival. We also have species that are federally protected. In order for us to save a species from going extinct we keep them captive and protected and that's only keeping the species alive as long as possible.

To replenish a species fully we would have to eliminate poaching and animal trade of that species. The only way I can think of doing that is through devaluing the monetary and unique value of that species. So, how would we do that? We would have to give every person on the planet a male and female of that species that are capable of reproduction. Then every person would have to breed them and release the hatchlings. Then we would have to hope that those eggs and our hatchlings survive and survive the food chain. But this is not feasible nor is this practical.

Many organizations that have tried to replenish the tiger population realized that you can only try to save the species rather than repopulate it. And they do this trough captivity.


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## turtlesteve (Nov 21, 2018)

drew54 said:


> It's very unlikely that we can replenish a population of a species under any circumstances. Not with the animal trade, poaching, and the rate of survival. We also have species that are federally protected. In order for us to save a species from going extinct we keep them captive and protected and that's only keeping the species alive as long as possible.
> 
> To replenish a species fully we would have to eliminate poaching and animal trade of that species. The only way I can think of doing that is through devaluing the monetary and unique value of that species. So, how would we do that? We would have to give every person on the planet a male and female of that species that are capable of reproduction. Then every person would have to breed them and release the hatchlings. Then we would have to hope that those eggs and our hatchlings survive and survive the food chain. But this is not feasible nor is this practical.
> 
> Many organizations that have tried to replenish the tiger population realized that you can only try to save the species rather than repopulate it. And they do this trough captivity.



I'm not sure I agree with the underlying concept here. In general, humanity is motivated by money, and we're going to conserve a species if saving it has more economic value than exploiting it. The path forward is to create monetary value, but tie this value to conservation (such as via eco-tourism and the like). Make the animals more valuable alive than dead. Various southeast asian nations, despite extreme poverty, have now implemented strong protections on coral reefs because tourism revenue vastly exceeds any gain from exploitation.


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## drew54 (Nov 21, 2018)

turtlesteve said:


> I'm not sure I agree with the underlying concept here. In general, humanity is motivated by money, and we're going to conserve a species if saving it has more economic value than exploiting it. The path forward is to create monetary value, but tie this value to conservation (such as via eco-tourism and the like). Make the animals more valuable alive than dead. Various southeast asian nations, despite extreme poverty, have now implemented strong protections on coral reefs because tourism revenue vastly exceeds any gain from exploitation.


In the general public yes this is true which is why we have Wildlife conservation efforts, zoos, etc. And that's a great example of how humanity is motivated by self interest and money. However, the more endangered and exotic the animal is the higher value it becomes. Thus increasing the demand. Poachers do not care about preservation they care about their payday. 

Rhinos in Africa are down to I think around . 100,000 or so in population. To a poacher, black market, and animal trade in general that's 100,000 paydays for animal parts, skin, etc. So, the health of the animal doesn't apply. Whether it's alive or dead they get paid. After the animal goes extinct they move on to another species that is valuable in some way. Even if the animal is protected they are still of high value to these all of these markets if not more valuable.

My point was it's an unlikely option to replenish and completely save an population in need of it due to the realistic factors in place. The biggest being human self interest.


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## mark1 (Nov 21, 2018)

turtlesteve said:


> They would eventually be classified as a new species, if they are distinct enough and unable to continue interbreeding with the original parent species. It's also extremely common for species to naturally have "contamination" from past hybridization (humans are one example here).



I was thinking of dogs , wolves , dingo's and coyotes...……….

the only way a species can be saved in the wild is habitat protection , regulations , laws and enforcement , without that it's not possible …….. can you save the iowa population of glyptemys insculpta with glyptemys insculpta from Pennsylvania ?


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## Sisypha (Nov 28, 2018)

Sulcatas and leopard tortoises have shared their sub-saharan (and southward) habitats in the wild for perhaps eons, all the time not interbreeding.

Leopards fr. central Africa exhibit a more discrete shell design, while those who migrated downward towards S. Africa evolved more random freckled carapaces. *BUT* they all remain Genus: Stigmochelys Species: pardalis. (There is talk of adding a subsp. to distinguish the two, but since shell pattern gradates as tort extends S, all other anatomy & physio being identicaI, it's doubtful this will occur.) Point: they can breed freely, as they are same genus + species.

Sulcatas (Centrochelys sulcata) share a similar distribution and diet but occupy a slightly different "eco-niche" by virtue of size & behavior. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've just never read/heard of Centro-Stigmo "mules" in their native environment.

A lot of preserves and hobbyists keep both leopards and sulcatas in grassland environs, but since they are different genus & species (as well as behavior), do we in fact have positive *genetic* evidence for such cross-matings? I remain skeptical. Humbly request to be set straight if I'm wrong…


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## Sisypha (Nov 28, 2018)

Jacqui said:


> Does it ever happen naturally in nature?


Sulcata x leopard mating in Sub-sahal Africa? Not according to an [admittedly cursory] lit. search, and the 2 unrelated tortoises have co-habitated in the same nearly-desert grassland regions for ages…


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## Kapidolo Farms (Nov 28, 2018)

Jacqui said:


> Does it ever happen naturally in nature?


That's debatable. Some range studies show yes, some show no.


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## Sisypha (Nov 28, 2018)

Will said:


> That's debatable. Some range studies show yes, some show no.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 28, 2018)

If it is true. that like mules that neither sex can reproduce I can't understand where the problem is in producing offspring that can't mess with the gene pool in the future.


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## TechnoCheese (Nov 28, 2018)

Turtulas-Len said:


> If it is true. that like mules that neither sex can reproduce I can't understand where the problem is in producing offspring that can't mess with the gene pool in the future.



A female leoparcata recently mated with a male Sulcata and layed eggs. I’ll see if I can find the post.


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## TechnoCheese (Nov 28, 2018)

Turtulas-Len said:


> If it is true. that like mules that neither sex can reproduce I can't understand where the problem is in producing offspring that can't mess with the gene pool in the future.



Hybrid - leopard and sulcata cross

https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/Hybrid---leopard-and-sulcata-cross.91177


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 28, 2018)

TechnoCheese said:


> Hybrid - leopard and sulcata cross
> 
> https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php...ads/Hybrid---leopard-and-sulcata-cross.91177/


It wont open for me to read. Does it say the eggs were fertile, did any hatch ? I ask because female tortoises can lay eggs without mating.


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## TechnoCheese (Nov 28, 2018)

Turtulas-Len said:


> It wont open for me to read. Does it say the eggs were fertile, did any hatch ? I ask because female tortoises can lay eggs without mating.



It hasn’t been updated in two months, but the eggs were put in the incubator around that time. No idea, but it would be cool to see if they are.


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## DesertGirl (Nov 29, 2018)

wellington said:


> Most humans would rather dog, cat, etc, not be mixed. There are a lot of idiots and/or irresponsible humans in this world. I'm never for mixing species/breeds.





Mizcreant said:


> There can be an entire new niche market out there for this. Designer tortoises. I can mix two or more breeds together, give them a cutesy / fancy name, and sell them at a premium just like they do with dogs. I can call my new shop "Mizcreant's Miserables". Folks seem to want to spend more if your name sounds French. Lol



Miserables du Mizcreant


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## DesertGirl (Nov 29, 2018)

drew54 said:


> I think where people get confused with this is the lack of understanding of taxonomy. When people hear dog or cat they can recognize two different species, but with other animals it gets difficult. People call apes, gorillas, chimps, etc all monkeys. We know that they are not all monkeys and different species. I see this with turtles and tortoises also. People think all turtles are tortoises and they are all the same and vice versa.
> 
> Most people look at animals and automatically forget about taxonomy. We look at fish as fish, dogs as dogs, birds as birds, etc. When you ask someone what type of animal they are looking at the popular response is "i don't know it's just a bird."
> 
> ...



I generally say turtles are wet, torts are dry. That usually satisfies the casual questioner.


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## TortoiseRacket (Dec 27, 2018)

The only hybrid tortoise I am fine with is a redfoot crossing with a yellowfoot, or a redfoot crossing with an elongated. They are very similar in care and come from similar parts of the world and I still don’t really like it. Nothing good can happen from mixing genes from two wild, not domesticated animals. Why do people do that? Is it for looks or just recognition for having hybrids?
Hope that helped!
-Mickey


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