# An off shoot of the ban thread..what WOULD you agree too?



## Jacqui (Mar 27, 2012)

This is just an off shoot from the discussion thread about banning and regulating the reptile hobby. For this poll only, let's just stick to tortoises and tortoises alone okay?


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## StudentoftheReptile (Mar 27, 2012)

For the purposes of this poll, when you refer to licensing/testing, are you exclusively meaning this would be dictated by the govt?


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## Jacqui (Mar 27, 2012)

I think it would have to end up being "policed" by the government on some level. Perhaps by city, county, state, or national. I would hope the testing questions and answers would be given and graded by a tortoise person, not just some "flunky", as we all know there is a variation in possible "correct" answers. For example John Henderzone might think humid hides are the way to go with hatchlings, while Penny Goodnplenty may not, yet both can be correct in their answer. (I hope there is nobody with these names in here. I tried to make them up.  ) 

These questions/statements are meant to be rather open and lacking fine details at this point. It's more just to get a feel where the members in this forum would perhaps stand, but knowing those final small details would also make a difference in opinions.


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## dmmj (Mar 27, 2012)

You guys and girls probably know my feelings but I could not agree to any type of licensing to keep turtles and tortoises. Maybe if it was a license like the CTTC does for desert tortoises then maybe, My license was free, and I had gotten it the same night I applied for it. I don't think any office in the government could do something like that.

I don't want some swarmy government bureaucrat walking around my property trying to determine if I am a good keeper or not, and then how would we define good? would a panel of tortoise keepers/experts set guidelines? how would they come to an agreement on what is good or bad, no thanks I will pass.


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## Jacqui (Mar 27, 2012)

dmmj said:


> Maybe if it was a license like the CTTC does for desert tortoises then maybe, My license was free, and I had gotten it the same night I applied for it. I don't think any office in the government could do something like that.



I am sorry, I was under the belief that they were actually "working" for the F&G (ie goverment) when the CTTC did the DT licensing thing.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 27, 2012)

In my community you can't have a dog unless it is licensed. We all know how well that law works. There are stray dogs all over the place with no licenses. We even have to show our female dog's license number when placing an ad in the paper to sell puppies. But that doesn't seem to work either.

It could cost a person $10,000 if they were caught picking up a desert tortoise from the desert, and yet we know how well that law works too.

I watch The Python Hunters on cable TV. I don't know if there are laws in place making it illegal to dump snakes, and if there are, we can see by the TV program how well that law works.

My point being, the existing laws we have don't work. What makes us think new laws will work any better?


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## StudentoftheReptile (Mar 27, 2012)

> I could not agree to any form of licensing in order to purchase, keep or breed tortoises.



This probably reflects my beliefs the best. In an ideal world, law enforcement, wildlife officials and the reptile industry could work together to create a system where any private citizen could still keep & breed any species they choose within some boundaries, with reasonable licensing and testing to weed out the irresponsible. However, on the flip side, we wouldn't need such a system, and everyone would take excellent care of any pets they have. Sadly, we do not live in an ideal world, and I firmly believe that our freedoms are of utmost value and that means the least amount of govt involvement.



> I could agree with there being some form of licensing or testing BEFORE being able to get a tortoise or a new species of tortoise.



Assuming all agencies mentioned above could get their heads out of their rears, stop being so concerned about making money, and be willing to make a few compromises, a reasonable testing and licensing system is not a bad idea.



> I could agree only those breeding tortoises should have to be licensed.



This is mainly for sulcatas, but could go for other species as well. As unfair as it seems for breeders, there is the undeniable fact that sulcata tortoises are not beginner animals. Yet they are disturbingly so readily available to Joe Public at a very low cost. If the tortoise breeders do not police theirselves, then the solution is to raise prices on baby sulcatas, or decrease the supply, and breed less sulcatas per year.



> I could agree to those with over X animals needing a license.



I voted NO on these because I don't feel its fair for a certain number to warrant a license. What if someone has 11 tortoises, or 51? And does this only apply to adult animals?



> I think only zoos and other such institutions should be breeding the more "rare" tortoises.



Again, NO. Private keepers have proven time and again that they are equally successful (if not more so) at breeding rare species. Plus, they lack all the red tape many accredited zoos have to deal with regarding breeding rare species. Private keepers are often more successful because they are specialists!



> I think tortoises should only be kept in areas environmentally comparable with their native habitats.



I think most of our members would disagree. After all, a sulcata alone can thrive outdoors in Florida as well as Arizona, and neither aren't necessarily comparable to their native habitat.



> I think certain species should not be allowed to be kept by private keepers.



Absolutely true. But who decides? Goes back to the second option. All agencies HAVE to work to together.
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IN closing, I don't think a lot of current laws are adequate for many reasons. Some are useless, some are only bad because they are not enforced. I don't know enough about desert tortoises to comment on them.
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I plead the fifth on that last one!


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## Jacqui (Mar 27, 2012)

emysemys said:


> My point being, the existing laws we have don't work. What makes us think new laws will work any better?



Plus experience should also show us, that the folks who do tend to follow those laws are not the folks who are making the need for the laws to be there in the first place.


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## dmmj (Mar 27, 2012)

The CTTC handles the issing of permits and they are free and easy to get, if the F&G did it I would shudder to imagine how long it would take, the cost and all of that, so yes in essence they are "working" for the goverment but they don't work like the government it is a big difference IMHO.


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## Jacqui (Mar 27, 2012)

dmmj said:


> The CTTC handles the issing of permits and they are free and easy to get, if the F&G did it I would shudder to imagine how long it would take, the cost and all of that, so yes in essence they are "working" for the goverment but they don't work like the government it is a big difference IMHO.



Okay so let's say we would have the CTTC do the tortoise keeping licensing, too for their area, would you have major problems then with having to get licensed? Or have Yvonne have the ability, just as she currently does with her rescue when it comes to adoptions.


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## dmmj (Mar 27, 2012)

Well look st it this way, the CTTC licenses are basically to keep track of how many CDT's are in private hands ( officially more now than in the wild by all estimates) the licenses have no real power what so ever. so it would be pointless to issue them for all species being kept in captivity, unless you wanted them for record keeping purposes. So while I would not really object to it, I see it serving no actual purpose in doing so. I hope that made sense.


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## Turtulas-Len (Mar 27, 2012)

I'm an older guy that remembers when there was very few restrictions on bringing reptiles, amphibians and most bugs into the USA that the collectors were interested in. Dung beetles needed paper work because of hoof and mouth disease, but it didn't cost for the paper work from the Dept of Agriculture.There was one person that wanted some from Africa. As an example, I had a buyer in Philly for every Mamba I could get,(type didn't matter) and no one ever even looked to see what I was bringing in,until New York was used as a port of entry, someone(wont mention his name) from the Zoo would inspect the shipment and steal the freebies which came with every shipment. So used Chicago as port of entry from then on and got the freebies again, I remember some of them, African garter snakes, which I had never heard of before and they are hot(common names can hurt you) and the best was a beautiful eight foot King Cobra. Anyway times change sometimes for the better and some times not,The only one I checked was the first one,"I Have Seen The Past And It Was Better", but it will never come back. Len----but i am still having fun--


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## JacksonR (Mar 27, 2012)

No licenses needed.

What next....a permit to go within 100 feet of an animal?


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## Bow (Mar 28, 2012)

My Grandpa once brought home a baby alligator or crocodile in his briefcase for my aunt when she was young. It lived in a shoe box and was force fed bugs with the vacuum cleaner, it had a horrible life. There needs to be bans in place or animals suffer like that gator. I know plenty of people who did well by the animals they brought home, my Dads best friend had a tortoise that lived in their yard until his parents were to old to care for it anymore. Then it was donated to the Vancouver Zoo. Some people keep things because they care for them. Some people want things just for the novelty of saying they have one.


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## wellington (Mar 28, 2012)

The only reason I would like some kind of licensing, free or not is to protect the animals. They do not have a choice or voice. Who would be the right group of people to do this? Your guess is as good as mine. I would like to see people have to prove something. That they are able to care for the animals they want, or have or are going to get. Too many tortoises, like other animals are being dumped. I don't want someone telling me I can't have something, however I am also not the one that is going to impulse buy and not take proper care of it. I really don't think they can up hold any laws to regulate them anyway. Maybe only selling across state lines. Do what you can afford. If you can't afford it, to properly care for it, you don't get it. If the problem people were punished with bigger fines and less chances, we probably wouldn't even need to worry about these kinds of laws.


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## yagyujubei (Mar 28, 2012)

As I see it, 23 out of 32 people voting think we need watching, and/or more regulation by government re:reptiles. That's almost 75 percent. Add to that the percentage of non exotic animal owners, it's not hard to see why new regulations are constantly being legislated.We're our own worst enemy. Even this thread could be used against us, as proof that tortoise owners want more regulation.The reason why we lose our freedoms is not that THEY take it away, WE give it away. To me, you're just cutting your own throats.


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## Jacqui (Mar 28, 2012)

yagyujubei said:


> As I see it, 23 out of 32 people voting think we need watching, and/or more regulation by government re:reptiles. That's almost 75 percent. Add to that



My quick look was something like 15 members have actually voted with 9 of those stating they WANT no regulations. The 32 number you used, includes multiple voting by various folks. I also thought as I wrote it, the answers are not really to be taken as what you feel or want, but more how far or how much could or would you be willing to compromise.


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## Tom (Mar 28, 2012)

emysemys said:


> In my community you can't have a dog unless it is licensed. We all know how well that law works. There are stray dogs all over the place with no licenses. We even have to show our female dog's license number when placing an ad in the paper to sell puppies. But that doesn't seem to work either.
> 
> It could cost a person $10,000 if they were caught picking up a desert tortoise from the desert, and yet we know how well that law works too.
> 
> ...



Nothing. Absolutely nothing makes me think that...


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## wellington (Mar 28, 2012)

yagyujubei said:


> As I see it, 23 out of 32 people voting think we need watching, and/or more regulation by government re:reptiles. That's almost 75 percent. Add to that the percentage of non exotic animal owners, it's not hard to see why new regulations are constantly being legislated.We're our own worst enemy. Even this thread could be used against us, as proof that tortoise owners want more regulation.The reason why we lose our freedoms is not that THEY take it away, WE give it away. To me, you're just cutting your own throats.



If everyone did what they could afford and got educated before purchasing we would not need regulations. Unfortunately, there are more bad people then good. I care more about the animals then the people wanting them. If you have nothing to fear, you will get what you want. If you have a problem being watched, you probably are one of the bad. I don't believe in banning, I wouldn't mind more regulations, watching, and education. I would pass. If you (meaning anyone)feel you wouldn't, and be honest, take a better look at how you are caring for your animals and do better!

My point being, the existing laws we have don't work. What makes us think new laws will work any better?

They won't. They never have. They probably never will. They, have to do something to justify our money being wasted. This time it is reptiles. Next year it will be something else. However, there is always a way around it anyway.


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## yagyujubei (Mar 28, 2012)

To wellington: Your remarks seem to be coming directly fron "The Secret Police Handbook"
'Unfortunately, there are more bad people then good''If you have a problem being watched, you probably are one of the bad.""If you (meaning anyone)feel you wouldn't, and be honest, take a better look at how you are caring for your animals and do better!' Nice outlook on life.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Mar 28, 2012)

Jacqui said:


> yagyujubei said:
> 
> 
> > As I see it, 23 out of 32 people voting think we need watching, and/or more regulation by government re:reptiles. That's almost 75 percent. Add to that
> ...



Yeah, how Jacqui set-up (allowing for multiple voting), I interpreted her intent that way. That's I voted multiple options, and I gave my comments on why I voted as such.

Again, ultimately, my primary vote is for _*NO*_ regulation, for reasons similar to Tom's. You can keep what you want, but if you screw up, THEN you pay. The only downside is the animals do get the short-end of the stick with this mentality.

That's why I fundamentally agree with some of Wellington's post earlier this morning. It would be nice for people to have to prove that they're not an idiot and they can keep the animal properly, but how to implement this, I have no idea.

I still think there's a lot of reptile species out there that are too easily available to the public, but probably should not be, simply because they are not beginner species. Among others, the sulcata tortoise comes to mind. That is why I voted that perhaps only breeders have some form of regulation. Yeah, there's obviously a market; people keep buying them at shows and online, so it is a financial incentive for breeders to keep producing baby sulcatas year after year. But we have to ask ourselves: how many of those babies actually survive past year one? How many of those tortoises are passed around their local herp communities like a hot potato for the next decade because no one wants it? (even before it gets full adult size, no less!). There needs to be better regulation on how these baby tortoises are being sold. Either dealers needs to screen potential buyers, and be willing to refuse a sale or two on occasion, or we start limiting the supply. If its the latter, either sulcata breeders need to man up and do it willingly for the betterment of the tortoises' welfare and the hobby...or the govt may need to step in and do it for them.

I know there's a handful of members who breed sulcatas, and you very likely do not agree with that, but I stand by it. I feel the same way about large constrictor snakes, savannah monitors, and a handful of other commonly available species that are not starter species.


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## Jacqui (Mar 28, 2012)

wellington said:


> If you have a problem being watched, you probably are one of the bad. I don't believe in banning, I wouldn't mind more regulations, watching, and education. I would pass. If you (meaning anyone)feel you wouldn't, and be honest, take a better look at how you are caring for your animals and do better!



Perhaps to help you get a better feel for why some of us may "have a problem with being watched", if I use another case. Your driving down the road just enjoying the awesome spring scenery. You smile at the antics of those cute newborn and oh so white Hereford calves. Suddenly you spot a law enforcement cruiser up ahead. What's the first reaction from most folks? The foot goes to the brake to slow down as you double check your speed, even tho you know you are not speeding. The common man feels a tinge of guilt and fear at just seeing that law enforcement person. Are they guilty of any crime? No, but they feel like it and that is an unpleasant feeling.

I know you won't believe this *cough cough*, but I tend to say what I really feel and not lie. Well I have said a few times to this one deputy exactly what I felt about him. Let's say he's not a person who likes me much for it. I know, without a single doubt, he is biased in his treatment of folks. Do I honestly think he would treat me fairly, no I do not. Do I think he would nit pick and do his darnest to find fault with me, you betcha. Do I want him to ever set foot on my property? Over my dead body, maybe. 

As I sit here looking around and thinking what an inspector would find , if he walked into the door right this second. I see two young redfoots munching on their mushroom. Water in their dish, check. Tank clean check. Above them are a couple of Stars, fresh food no, they have not yet finished last night's dandelions, so those are looking a little wilted. Water in their dish, nope. Are they tortoises I do in a later set because they aren't real active this early? Yep. So the Stars would fail a quick inspection. Over there is a Homes hingeback whom just a short while ago got a freshly cleaned water source, do I think right now if you looked there is a great chance of seeing poop in the water? Yep. Mark that dish a fail! 

So it would go among the various tortoises, some are newly cleaned, watered and fed, yet even they may no longer be up to par. Some are my second bunch to do each day (Leopards, sulcatas, Russians, Greeks, hermanns, stars), so they aren't done and would not be passing. The dogs pass, they all are healthy to look at, groomed, feeder is full, fresh water down (2 places even  ). The cats pass until you get to their litter boxes. Heck they use them as I am cleaning them, so one of them being totally clean is a rare event. Cats are like tortoises, a clean litter box (water dish for the tortoises) is a magnet that they can't resist not being pulled to and using immediately. 

Now I am a bit anal perhaps, when folks come over I clean for hours. I have a need for them to come into a spotless house, even tho I myself prefer to visit a lived in look home. I hate when folks show up unexpectedly at my door... even my own kids. If I knew somebody could show up unexpectedly at any time who had the power to take from me the things I love most, I would be a total stressed out wreck and my animals would be stressed from me pestering them constantly to reclean after them. New enclosures would not be built. Overall I think the quality of their life would go down, because I would be focused just on passing some stupid inspection and giving that all my time and energy. 

In all reality, if the average tortoise keeper walked into my home, I would pass with flying colors. They would know that poop in a water dish does not always mean the keeper is neglecting the tortoise (especially if they also see fresh food in the same enclosure). They know fresh warm water equals a tortoise's prime time to soak which also may equal a tortoise expelling stools. They would be able to understand why not all enclosures have lights or heat sources depending on the species within. They would understand why the adult Leopard is not in an enclosure as damp as the one the Erosa is in and vise versa. Even tho I deep down know I would pass (except with Deputy Jerk), do I want that stress? Do I need that stress? Do I have that fear that I would end up with the Jerk type? The fears may not be rational, but it does not make the fear any less of a fear.

Barb, I am not you with one tortoise who could spot clean or add water or fresh greens, before going to answer the door if the inspector unexpectedly shows up. With my numbers, it is an all day job going from one group to another and when done, going back at different times and frequencies to those groups all over again. In between, I take my breaks coming in here. Plus blocks of time are spend outside preparing and keeping up outside enclosures. Instead of wasting time and energy on stress, I would much rather use that same energy on improving the tortoises lives. I would much rather be able to take the money and instead of paying for a keeper's license, be buying things like more fencing to enlarge my tortoises enclosures.

You just can not equal our not wanting big brother looking over our shoulders or our "fear" of having to pass some inspection, with the quality of care we give our tortoises.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Mar 28, 2012)

Good post, Jacqui!


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## wellington (Mar 28, 2012)

Jacqui. No, really, you don't just say whats on your mind do ya  I personally don't want big brother over my shoulder either. I am a very private person. I also don't think though that it would ever get as bad as in your last post. I do though would like something. I just don't know what it could be, to prevent people from getting animals to neglect, abuse or get rid of, just because they either don't want them any more or never got educated on what they were getting to begin with. Maybe a simple no pet stores only breeders can sell policy, or vice/versa with a country wide mandated, breeder educational packet that must be given to every person buying an animal. Then, maybe with in so many days of purchase, the new owner must report to an agency just to report that they purchased, what they purchased, where/who it was purchased from and that all educational paper work was given. Something to protect the animals. BTW I am one of those speeders. However, I am wrong. If I get caught, no b****, I just pay. That is the only thing I do though to cross the line of the law. Pretty boring otherwise



yagyujubei said:


> To wellington: Your remarks seem to be coming directly fron "The Secret Police Handbook"
> 'Unfortunately, there are more bad people then good''If you have a problem being watched, you probably are one of the bad.""If you (meaning anyone)feel you wouldn't, and be honest, take a better look at how you are caring for your animals and do better!' Nice outlook on life.


What's wrong with my outlook on life. I live, get what I want, have fun, pay my bills stay on the right side of the law, then I die. Oh, maybe that's not what you were referring to  If you can be honest with who you are, what you have done and as far as the animals, can honestly be proud of the way you care for them, you have no problems. If you can't, you probably should not own animals or better what it is you are doing. Not everyone deserves to have an animal. It is a privilege, that should not be taken lightly. I care about the animals. If I were to screw up, please, take my animals, they would not deserve to be stuck with me. 
The laws may make them property, I make them family and they are treated as family. I can't just give up on my kid, even though i may want to sometimes, teenagers ugh Oh, ya, no secret police handbook here.


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## JacksonR (Mar 28, 2012)

Whatever happens...it won't change anything for me. I'm tellin the government to get lost...


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## terryo (Mar 28, 2012)

I don't mind renewing my licence once a year, but it's really for my nosy neighbors.....but...I absolutely agree with the statements from Yvonne and Tom. I don't know about anywhere else, but the laws here are nothing more than a joke. None of them are enforced and none of them work.


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## dmmj (Mar 28, 2012)

ban type of laws like zero tolerance laws rarely work, they are often for the lazy so no one has to think about anything.


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## Neltharion (Mar 28, 2012)

terryo said:


> I don't know about anywhere else, but the laws here are nothing more than a joke. None of them are enforced and none of them work.



A California ferret legalization organization has estimated that there are more ferrets being kept here than in Oregon, Nevada, or Arizona; neighboring states where ferrets are legal. I don't know where they could have gotten those numbers, but it would make sense based on simple population statistics and the ease of bringing them across state lines.

As a teenager, I remember seeing snapping turtles at a pet store. They are illegal in California. But there they were, in plain sight, in a retail store. 

A neighbor has kept piranha illegally for many years and has never encountered any problems with the law. 

Generally, these restrictions are unenforceable. It would be impractical and unconstitutional for that matter to have Fish and Game Wardens go door to door and inspect people's properties for illegal species. 

You occasionally have a busybody neighbor or one with a vendetta that will report someone with illegal species. But aside from that, the laws aren't enforced.


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## froghaven5 (Mar 28, 2012)

terryo said:


> I don't mind renewing my licence once a year, but it's really for my nosy neighbors.....but...I absolutely agree with the statements from Yvonne and Tom. I don't know about anywhere else, but the laws here are nothing more than a joke. None of them are enforced and none of them work.



That is how it is here too. It's against the law to buy or sell tortoise/turtles in NJ but you can easily get a permit to own them for a fee of $10/year. As many reptiles as you claim on the permit (as long as not the exceptions) and even the exceptions have exceptions. It's not like they visit or you have to prove anything about how they are kept. The only reason I even have a permit is because my boys show their reptiles for 4-H and in order to show you have to have them permitted.


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