# How many tortoises get seriously ill or die as a result of eating "bad" weeds?



## RosemaryDW

We are very strict about telling new owners to avoid feeding absolutely anything they don't know is safe. Is that overkill?

I know tortoises absolutely suffer as the result of poor diets (like all iceburg or tomatoes!) but how many weed or yard plant poisoning cases have we seen? I know there is one thread on a sulcata getting a bad reaction from eating a load of tulip bulbs but are there others? Has there been a case of death by oxalis, for example?

The safe weeds list we provide new owners is a great place to get them started but it is limited. We direct new owners to the Tortoise Table but in my opinion, its logic often doesn't make sense and it's overly conservative. I don't rely on it.

After reading our advice, many owners are terrified to feed the wrong weed but are the dangers well documented? Maybe for sulcatas but what about other types? Would it really be so bad for owners to let their tortoises take a nibble of something unknown while they get used to identifying what's around them? Would that be better or worse than having them stick with a bag of spring mix for extended periods of time?


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## Yvonne G

I have no idea the answer to the question, but I've heard that spurge and oxalis, both high in oxalates, are part of the desert tortoise's regular diet.


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## Tom

This is a good question. I'll share my thoughts on the matter: The reptile vets that I am privileged to call friends here in SoCal see several cases a year of this. Given the thousands upon thousands of tortoise keepers that are in this area, I would grant you that death by eating poisonous plants is not all that common, but it is common enough for me to want to warm others to use caution. We have several members here who claim that tortoises have survived for millions of years without our help and they know what to eat. I counter with: That is fine for a hatchling that grew up in its own native environment in the wild with indigenous plants, but the whole idea goes out the window when we move them to a different continent with difference weeds and plants that are from all over the world. I realize that some tortoises choose not to eat some poisonous plants some of the time, but I'm not going to gamble with my tortoises life, or anyone else's tortoises life that way. I've seen too many die.

I also counter that incorrect notion with case after case of dead tortoises. Just last year during a visit with one of my vet friends I had to help him move a dying 300+ pound aldabra. Its galapagos yard-mate had already died. It seems that the man's gardeners decided to add some new plants to the margins of the yard without asking him. They planted some jasmine and the two giant tortoise started eating the new plants as soon as the workers walked away after planting them. The aldabra died a few days after I saw it. So sad. So preventable.


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## Tom

RosemaryDW said:


> Has there been a case of death by oxalis, for example?



Oxalis is not toxic. It is high in oxalates, which over time, with enough consumed, can affect calcium absorption and utilization.

I used to feed small amounts of it to my tortoises on purpose back when I mistakenly thought it was some sort of safe clover. They can eat some of it, they just shouldn't eat lots of it on a regular basis.

Things like oleander, azaleas, jasmine or other toxic plants are a different story.


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## Markw84

Tom said:


> Oxalis is not toxic. It is high in oxalates, which over time, with enough consumed, can affect calcium absorption and utilization.
> .



Is that really true? I don't know and am becoming more and more weighted towards the idea that tortoises are totally different in the way their metabolism treats many items we consider "bad". Another thread going on now was on reducing oxalates and here's a small part of my post...

_I was interested because We do hear so much about eliminating dietary oxalic acid and how bad oxalates are, but more and more I don't see why. You, Will are far more of an expert on this than I am, hence my interest. Especially with my recent experience with my sulcatas. I was concerned they were eating so much oxalis, and all I heard was that it was really bad and to be avoided because of its high concentrations of oxalic acid. This thread seemed to directly speak to the binding of calcium with oxalates leaving much less "bioavailable". Because I watched my sulcatas consuming large quantities, and, in particular, by laying female, it was forefront in my mind. She laid her first clutch in March. As a young female she also has been laying eggs with thin shells and many eggs break easily as she lays. I am trying to particularly enhance available calcium for her. The first clutch had several broken shells. Her second clutch was the beginning of May right after the oxalis started taking over in the enclosure. So maybe a week or so of eating oxalis rich grazing. That clutch was even worse despite the Mazuri and cuttlebones. By mid May there was far more oxalis than grass. I though she was done laying eggs and wasn't as attentive to pushing calcium, but was still concerned about the oxalis for overall health. She laid again mid June. So those eggs were forming shells while she was grazing on heavy oxalis content. Her last clutch was the best she's ever laid. Nice thick shells, absolutely no broken eggs!!_

When I had an opportunity to speak with the two main vets and the horticulturist for the Behler Center, in noting almost all their greenhouse enclosures had pothos ivy growing everywhere, I asked about why it is listed as harmful with all the oxalic acid and calcium oxalates (raphides). Their response was it is a non-issue with chelonians. Dogs and cats are bothered and get irritations from the raphides, but chelonians are not affected. They were not concerned about the oxalic acid and it was freely available for any grazing of most all their tortoise species.

There is so little known about chelonian diet and metabolism. I think we will find a lot of the cautionary items will turn out to be entirely different in the case of chelonians vs. mammals.

I guess in the meantime, caution is warranted as there are some indeed that are toxic. I am starting to pay more attention to the ingredient that is causing the warning, though.


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## stevenf625

is English Ivy supposed to be toxic in the same way as you thought Pothos Ivy is.
This is a current worry of mine as Rhialto ate something similar 2 days ago and does not seem as active as usual.


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## Tom

Markw84 said:


> Is that really true? I don't know and am becoming more and more weighted towards the idea that tortoises are totally different in the way their metabolism treats many items we consider "bad". Another thread going on now was on reducing oxalates and here's a small part of my post...
> 
> _I was interested because We do hear so much about eliminating dietary oxalic acid and how bad oxalates are, but more and more I don't see why. You, Will are far more of an expert on this than I am, hence my interest. Especially with my recent experience with my sulcatas. I was concerned they were eating so much oxalis, and all I heard was that it was really bad and to be avoided because of its high concentrations of oxalic acid. This thread seemed to directly speak to the binding of calcium with oxalates leaving much less "bioavailable". Because I watched my sulcatas consuming large quantities, and, in particular, by laying female, it was forefront in my mind. She laid her first clutch in March. As a young female she also has been laying eggs with thin shells and many eggs break easily as she lays. I am trying to particularly enhance available calcium for her. The first clutch had several broken shells. Her second clutch was the beginning of May right after the oxalis started taking over in the enclosure. So maybe a week or so of eating oxalis rich grazing. That clutch was even worse despite the Mazuri and cuttlebones. By mid May there was far more oxalis than grass. I though she was done laying eggs and wasn't as attentive to pushing calcium, but was still concerned about the oxalis for overall health. She laid again mid June. So those eggs were forming shells while she was grazing on heavy oxalis content. Her last clutch was the best she's ever laid. Nice thick shells, absolutely no broken eggs!!_
> 
> When I had an opportunity to speak with the two main vets and the horticulturist for the Behler Center, in noting almost all their greenhouse enclosures had pothos ivy growing everywhere, I asked about why it is listed as harmful with all the oxalic acid and calcium oxalates (raphides). Their response was it is a non-issue with chelonians. Dogs and cats are bothered and get irritations from the raphides, but chelonians are not affected. They were not concerned about the oxalic acid and it was freely available for any grazing of most all their tortoise species.
> 
> There is so little known about chelonian diet and metabolism. I think we will find a lot of the cautionary items will turn out to be entirely different in the case of chelonians vs. mammals.
> 
> I guess in the meantime, caution is warranted as there are some indeed that are toxic. I am starting to pay more attention to the ingredient that is causing the warning, though.



Good points as usual Mark. In the case of oxalis, I am guilty of parroting what I've read and heard. In the years that I was feeding handfuls of oxalis to my adult sulcatas (For everyone reading, I would grab a big handful and mix it all up with other weeds, grass and grass hay. We are talking maybe a ratio of 5% oxalis to all the other stuff.), I never observed any problems. My females were not laying eggs yet at that time.

I too had a couple of females laying thin shelled eggs for a couple of clutches, and over time the problem also went away for me. I started adding powdered calcium to more of those female's meals, but I can't say for sure if that did or didn't have anything to do with the improvement.


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## Kapidolo Farms

If "THEY" don't know it's safe, they should not feed it. Tom's narrative about some tortoises eating Jasmine is the good example. They did not know, they lost their tortoise. 

Actively knowing something is good or bad is means to an end, that end being safe feeding. There are many resources for THEM to learn. TFO is one of those resources. The Tortoise Table is another. To error on the side of caution (the precautionary principle) is almost always going to yield neutral or positive results. Spending time finding out, is the route to take. 

I use many other resources than here on TFO and The Tortoise Table. Visually looking to see what is in the grocery store is one good way. Looking at Feedipedia.org, the FAO also has much to say about both common and uncommon potential diet items. Natural history observation (sorta rare for diet items, but still a resource) is a good one too.

I do not like the alarmist nature of some posts regarding diet items and their impact. It's not so difficult to find some resource that indicates where on the range of quality something may be, from death in seconds, to unbounded growth and reproduction.

Many of the substances in plant tissue that are toxic are plant stress related. They occur during drought, when some fruiting body is developing, or some other factor. Those same plants and parts can also be high quality food at other times. I think this is the indigenous "knowledge" that tortoises can work with. I have no 'research' reason to believe that tortoises try things out in small amounts and wait for some kind of feedback via "how they feel" from eating something. But I believe that is the trait that both helps the wild tortoise and kills the long term captive tortoise.

I tried this out one time, the tortoise was very acclimated to eating from peoples' hands. I offered an onion to it, it took a big bite, was about to go for a additional bite and then realized something was wrong. It spit out the first bite. I then offered an apple and it went for it right away. They become patterned into behaviors, including food sensibility.

Also, there is no knowing how many tortoises perish in the wild from eating the wrong thing to the extent that that is a cause of death.

So, none hysterical caution is good. Overkill is only in the hysteria, not rational caution.


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## Markw84

Will said:


> If "THEY" don't know it's safe, they should not feed it. Tom's narrative about some tortoises eating Jasmine is the good example. They did not know, they lost their tortoise.
> 
> I have no 'research' reason to believe that tortoises try things out in small amounts and wait for some kind of feedback via "how they feel" from eating something. But I believe that is the trait that both helps the wild tortoise and kills the long term captive tortoise.



My belief on this is in the wild some tortoises eat poisonous items and they die. They do not pass on those preferences or proclivity. Other tortoises do not have a "taste for" that item and they live. They pass on that trait. Can't imagine they have any intelligence or reasoning to eat a small portion and know if that item got them sick or not!

I also like this reference from the California Poison Control System that I use and have the shortcut on my desktop. It gives me a better idea of why a particular plant is bad. Also seems to be the most comprehensive database I have found.

It still leaves us with the question of "does that apply to tortoises?' but that's the stuff for ongoing discussion, observation and research. As we do... I agree - err on the side of caution!


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## Tom

Will said:


> Many of the substances in plant tissue that are toxic are plant stress related. They occur during drought, when some fruiting body is developing, or some other factor. Those same plants and parts can also be high quality food at other times. I think this is the indigenous "knowledge" that tortoises can work with.



I think "fiddle neck" serves as a good example of this type of plant. Amsinckia intermedia.


https://csuvth.colostate.edu/poisonous_plants/Plants/Details/40

The above website lists it as toxic across the board, but other research indicates that the young budding spring plants are safe, and only the seeds and seed heads are toxic. I've fed this to my tortoises when the plant is small with no ill effect. As soon as I see a hint of a seed head, I pull it out by hand, root and all, and chuck it in the trash. Even in winter when this plant sprouts here, its never made up even 1% of their daily diet.




Will said:


> Also, there is no knowing how many tortoises perish in the wild from eating the wrong thing to the extent that that is a cause of death.



This is another excellent point I've pondered, but found no research one way or the other.


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## Tom

Markw84 said:


> It still leaves us with the question of "does that apply to tortoises?' but that's the stuff for ongoing discussion, observation and research. As we do... I agree - err on the side of caution!



To this point, I use the logic: There are LOADS of other things to feed our tortoises. Why take risks with things we aren't sure of. My tortoises will not starve if they _never_ eat oxalis or young fiddle neck plants. Why not just feed more mallow, dandelion, prickly lettuce, grass, opuntia, mulberry, hibiscus or grape leaves, etc…? Things we _know_ are safe.


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## stevenf625

Markw84 said:


> My belief on this is in the wild some tortoises eat poisonous items and they die. They do not pass on those preferences or proclivity. Other tortoises do not have a "taste for" that item and they live. They pass on that trait. Can't imagine they have any intelligence or reasoning to eat a small portion and know if that item got them sick or not!
> 
> I also like this reference from the California Poison Control System that I use and have the shortcut on my desktop. It gives me a better idea of why a particular plant is bad. Also seems to be the most comprehensive database I have found.
> 
> It still leaves us with the question of "does that apply to tortoises?' but that's the stuff for ongoing discussion, observation and research. As we do... I agree - err on the side of caution!




For the document you referred to: What does the rating system mean e.g., what does it mean that Boston Ivy is rated 2a, 2b?

edit
nevermind i see the explaination on page 61
2a= oxalate crystals
2b = more oxalate crystals
but neither appear fatal (at least to humans)


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## Markw84

stevenf625 said:


> For the document you referred to: What does the rating system mean e.g., what does it mean that Boston Ivy is rated 2a, 2b?
> 
> edit
> nevermind i see the explaination on page 61
> 2a= oxalate crystals
> 2b = more oxalate crystals
> but neither appear fatal (at least to humans)


So for me, I am not as concerned with 2a. But I would still exercise caution if listed as a 2b. But 2b is where I am with oxalis! Pothos Ivy is a 2a. Your Boston Ivy is both 2a and 2b.


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## stevenf625

Markw84 said:


> So for me, I am not as concerned with 2a. But I would still exercise caution if listed as a 2b. But 2b is where I am with oxalis! Pothos Ivy is a 2a. Your Boston Ivy is both 2a and 2b.



I don't know what type of ivy it was. It has an English Ivy leaf shape, but without the viens. The leaves are flat green, almost look like a fake plant. I posted a picture in the Plant Identification section


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## Kapidolo Farms

Markw84 said:


> My belief on this is in the wild some tortoises eat poisonous items and they die. They do not pass on those preferences or proclivity. Other tortoises do not have a "taste for" that item and they live. They pass on that trait. Can't imagine they have any intelligence or reasoning to eat a small portion and know if that item got them sick or not!




Some of us call that evolution. LOL They do pass it on, in that those urges or "taste for" get weeded out. Pretty good Pun there Huh?


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## RosemaryDW

Tom said:


> To this point, I use the logic: There are LOADS of other things to feed our tortoises. Why take risks with things we aren't sure of. My tortoises will not starve if they _never_ eat oxalis or young fiddle neck plants. Why not just feed more mallow, dandelion, prickly lettuce, grass, opuntia, mulberry, hibiscus or grape leaves, etc…? Things we _know_ are safe.



Agreed. And agreed with Will that taking the time to learn is the best way. (I pretty much agree with everything posted by everyone, btw, it's all so well thought out.) So I'll go back to my first question, which was are we sending messages to new owners that are overkill?

We tell them in strong terms that weeds should constitute a large part of the diet whenever possible; we tell them weeds and safe foods are easy to find. We tell them in equally strong terms not to feed anything unknown; not to feed anything they are not absolutely certain has been sprayed. As their questions grow deeper, we start to tell them we actually don't know that much about plant toxicity in reptiles!

These are conflicting messages. How is a new owner, already told their housing is entirely wrong, their tortoise is not a baby, one is being bullied to death, etc., supposed to fully process all these feeding messages as well? It puts them in a no-win situation, at a vulnerable time in their ownership.

Owning only a single tortoise, I will never have deep experience with diet. I keep struggling to find the right away--in my mind--to support a new owner. At this time, I think the least wrong answer is, "Do the best you can for now and add in foods over time as you become more experienced." Right now the takeaway for many new owners is "You must get it all right, right now." That's not exactly what we say, but that's what they hear. Perhaps there is a better way to combine our messaging on diet.

*My* takeaway today is that I need to be more relaxed when new owners seem panicky about weeds. Not more relaxed about feeding random weeds, more relaxed about encouraging folks to slow down their pace and stick with safe foods early on, even if that means fairly limited foods. Even if it means spring mix.


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## Tom

RosemaryDW said:


> Agreed. And agreed with Will that taking the time to learn is the best way. (I pretty much agree with everything posted by everyone, btw, it's all so well thought out.) So I'll go back to my first question, which was are we sending messages to new owners that are overkill?
> 
> We tell them in strong terms that weeds should constitute a large part of the diet whenever possible; we tell them weeds and safe foods are easy to find. We tell them in equally strong terms not to feed anything unknown; not to feed anything they are not absolutely certain has been sprayed. As their questions grow deeper, we start to tell them we actually don't know that much about plant toxicity in reptiles!
> 
> These are conflicting messages. How is a new owner, already told their housing is entirely wrong, their tortoise is not a baby, one is being bullied to death, etc., supposed to fully process all these feeding messages as well? It puts them in a no-win situation, at a vulnerable time in their ownership.
> 
> Owning only a single tortoise, I will never have deep experience with diet. I keep struggling to find the right away--in my mind--to support a new owner. At this time, I think the least wrong answer is, "Do the best you can for now and add in foods over time as you become more experienced." Right now the takeaway for many new owners is "You must get it all right, right now." That's not exactly what we say, but that's what they hear. Perhaps there is a better way to combine our messaging on diet.
> 
> *My* takeaway today is that I need to be more relaxed when new owners seem panicky about weeds. Not more relaxed about feeding random weeds, more relaxed about encouraging folks to slow down their pace and stick with safe foods early on, even if that means fairly limited foods. Even if it means spring mix.



I get your point here. It just seems to me like common sense though... We tell the new person to feed lots of weeds of the right type and its just seems obvious to me that they will need to spend some time learning to ID their local weeds and which ones to feed. Many times, I phrase it that way in fact. "You will need to invest some time learning about your local weeds and plants. You can post pics here, look on various websites, and find a knowledgable weed identifier at your local garden center. In time, you'll learn how to recognize the good ones and the bad ones, and your tortoise will thank you by living a long healthy life."

I don't see this as a no-win situation. They got bad pet store advice that will harm or kill their tortoise, and we give them the right info that will help them and keep their tortoise alive and healthy. Is it frustrating, overwhelming or discouraging? Sure it is. I can imagine them spending two hours in the pet store soaking in all the "expert" sounding advice and then spending hundreds of dollars to buy crappy or detrimental products. Imagine my frustration 30 years ago with no internet and few people who had any idea what they were talking about. NO ONE in the entire world could explain the pyramiding thing that we'd been living with for decades. If someone had come along in 1994 and said to me: "Your failing because of this this and this, and here is how to do it correctly…" I would literally have jumped for joy! Sure I would have been pissy about the bad info from the pet store "expert", but that would quickly fade as my new animal began to thrive in the correct conditions. We all had to learn these rings through trial and error. LOTS of error, and lots of animals that suffered and died due to ignorance. Having dozens of knowledgeable people to guide me at every step of the way with every question I could possibly come up with would have literally been a miracle back then. Man, I would have done anything to have a mentor like MarkW, YvonneG, Will, cdmay, or any of two dozen more of the members here on this forum. Holy cow! Type in a question and BOOM! Experience based, helpful, accurate answers in seconds or minutes! That is a win any way you look at it.

I guess this is all a matter of perception. I'm enjoying this topic and discussion. Please dispute and discuss any point you disagree with, or offer me more guidance from your POV. I'd love new ideas about how to better help people and their tortoises. That is my goal, after all, and my bluntness is not always helpful.


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## Markw84

@RosemaryDW I understand completely what you are saying. However, it is easy to lose sight of how far you have come in your understanding of these things. The more you learn, the more you realize you don't yet know!! I see you really delving into the plants and plant ID and where to pick up and try more and more farmer market type items. Your perspective is way beyond a new person's questions. Your interest to push the boundaries leads you to many questions almost every other tortoise keeper will not deal with!!

A newbie can come here and quickly get such a large list of good items to feed. All the variety they and their tortoise needs. As @Tom mentions, it may come with a recommendation to spend some time learning to identify enough basic staples to be able to rotate maybe a dozen good choices. Grass, hibiscus, grape leaves, mulberry leaves, petunias, pansies, opuntia, chicks and hens, dandelion, thistle, milk weed. Add some Mazuri and cuttlebone or egg shells and you've got it!

For those like you, and me and Tom and Will and Anyfoot, and so many others here, we will continue to push that envelope and broaden the scope of those "easy answers". For us, it will get confusing and at times controversial, and we can bounce those ideas off each other here, until yet another thing becomes an accepted standard. No need to confuse that process with the advice we offer. For that, we stay on the side of caution and stick to the "easy" suggestions.


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## MichaelaW

Tom said:


> This is a good question. I'll share my thoughts on the matter: The reptile vets that I am privileged to call friends here in SoCal see several cases a year of this. Given the thousands upon thousands of tortoise keepers that are in this area, I would grant you that death by eating poisonous plants is not all that common, but it is common enough for me to want to warm others to use caution. We have several members here who claim that tortoises have survived for millions of years without our help and they know what to eat. I counter with: That is fine for a hatchling that grew up in its own native environment in the wild with indigenous plants, but the whole idea goes out the window when we move them to a different continent with difference weeds and plants that are from all over the world. I realize that some tortoises choose not to eat some poisonous plants some of the time, but I'm not going to gamble with my tortoises life, or anyone else's tortoises life that way. I've seen too many die.
> 
> I also counter that incorrect notion with case after case of dead tortoises. Just last year during a visit with one of my vet friends I had to help him move a dying 300+ pound aldabra. Its galapagos yard-mate had already died. It seems that the man's gardeners decided to add some new plants to the margins of the yard without asking him. They planted some jasmine and the two giant tortoise started eating the new plants as soon as the workers walked away after planting them. The aldabra died a few days after I saw it. So sad. So preventable.


I work as a vet tech so I've seen numerous interesting cases, one of which being a large Aldabra and Sulcata die after their owners fed them Nicotiana repanda (Fiddleleaf tobacco plant) from the nightshade family. Two of the other Aldabras nearly did not make it, but apparently they did not consume enough of the plant to be fatal.


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## Tom

MichaelaW said:


> I work as a vet tech so I've seen numerous interesting cases, one of which being a large Aldabra and Sulcata die after their owners fed them Nicotiana repanda (Fiddleleaf tobacco plant) from the nightshade family. Two of the other Aldabras nearly did not make it, but apparently they did not consume enough of the plant to be fatal.



Thank you for sharing this. I feel like people who know, work for, or are somehow involved with the vet world see a greater cross section of the problems that can occur, than your regular tortoise keeping hobbyist.


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## RosemaryDW

Tom said:


> I don't see this as a no-win situation. They got bad pet store advice that will harm or kill their tortoise, and we give them the right info that will help them and keep their tortoise alive and healthy. Is it frustrating, overwhelming or discouraging? Sure it is.



Yes, it is discouraging.

I wonder how many of them come, get overwhelmed, and don't come back. I know that will always be the case for some but I think I can decrease the number by telling brand new members "Hey, go fix your lights, humidity, and temps and get them stable. Until then, just stick to this <insert very very short> list of foods. Don't worry about finding dandelions in the dead of winter/next to the Love Canal/Brooklyn." 



Tom said:


> Man, I would have done anything to have a mentor like MarkW, YvonneG, Will, cdmay, or any of two dozen more of the members here on this forum. Holy cow! Type in a question and BOOM!



Things have certainly changed for the better. Here is the answer I got to my very first post about the tortoise I found, in the *desert tortoise* forum:



Tom said:


> That is a russian tortoise.



BOOM!


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## RosemaryDW

Markw84 said:


> A newbie can come here and quickly get such a large list of good items to feed. All the variety they and their tortoise needs. As Tom mentions, it may come with a recommendation to spend some time learning to identify enough basic staples to be able to rotate maybe a dozen good choices.



But how can a dozen be okay when they eat HUNDREDS of foods in the wild?! LOL

I like things black and white, if that's not extremely obvious. One size fits all, except of course it doesn't. 

Thank you for your feedback, I appreciate it.


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## Kapidolo Farms

To me "overkill" is a "hysterical" tone. If someone asks, _Hey I have several of these plants (image of oleander) and I know it's a desert plant, can me tortoises eat it.
_
I think the response would be _That plant is oleander, if that is an image of the internet, you might want to confirm the type of plant, if that is from your backyard then I and other can conform it is indeed oleander. It is without any doubt not a food item for tortoises, oleander is very toxic, so toxic no herbivores can eat it. Even grasshoppers and most insects can not safely eat it. 
_
Maybe something less black and white. On a Facebook leopard tortoise page. 

Post one: _Can I feed squash leaves, I've heard they can be toxic? _
The Moderator: _ I don't know but I think they may be._
My response: _ (image of squash leaves in a supermarket for human consumption) and a link to the feedipedia.org data sheet http://www.feedipedia.org/node/44 .

_
The whole problem with my approach is something I ran up against when taking calls from the public while working at a zoo. People want to do what they want to do and just ask "experts" to confirm what they are doing or want to do, not what the "expert" suggests.

Caller: _I have fed my baby iguana only romaine, he seems to be growing okay, is that an okay diet?_
Me: _Is your iguana always indoors?_
Caller: _Yeah but his cage is near a window._
Me: _You'll have to offer a wider range of foods, more than just romaine, and you should consider getting a vitamin/mineral supplement, and or some kind of bulb or tube that emits UVA and UVB parts of the spectrum. I can offer some specific suggestions if you like?_
Caller: _Well that's what he's been eating for the past two months and he's fine, shows you what you know (hangs up).
_
I see it as the hoarse and water dealio, Can lead but can't make drink. Can put face in water (hysterics) but that just creates water aversion.

Having been that caller to the zoo when I was a pre-teen and had opportunity to talk with herpetologists I have walked both sides of the discussion. But I too loose patience at time. LOL.


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## stevenf625

per the California Poison Control System rating system

Poison ivy = 1
virginia creeper = 2a, 2b

So its safer to eat Poison ivy than it is Virginia Creeper?


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## ZEROPILOT

A large female that was out of the pen for maintenance ate several "Easter Lilies" that the previous owner of my house had planted over 20 year ago.
I waited. Then went to the vet. NOTHING.
They still pop up every spring. I no longer worry about them. But don't let my animals eat them if I can.
I've dug up a few with a shovel, but there are so many. There are dozens. Maybe hundreds that line my back yard walk way and the back of the house.


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## daniellenc

I know as a new owner who previously had no knowledge of local weeds it has been hard. On one hand especially in the spring and summer months you want to feed as much variety as possible. Researching whats what at the grocery store is easy because we've been shopping our entire life, but researching your back yard isn't as cut and dry. Sure I knew what plantain and dandelion looked like, but I have a yard full of weird green stuff. I can't look it up by name because I don't know what it is. So the only thing I can do is post it here, or check my States website on weeds. When trying to find a picture of what I'm looking at that can even be tricky because many plants look very similar. So far I feed hosta leaves and flowers, rose of sharon leaves and flowers, white clover, broadleaf plantain, and dandelion weeds and flowers with store greens like chard, collard, mustard, and spring mix. I'm currently growing my own so I know exactly what they're getting but it is a large learning curve being able to identify safe wild plants to provide variety.

As far as wondering how many tortoises die because of eating toxic plants I am sure it is more than we imagine especially wild species. In captivity it is far easier to control what they consume provided researching before feeding, and not allowing browsing behavior outdoors unless in their own planted enclosure. I am actually enjoying familiarizing myself more with the plants here but it is intimidating at times.


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## Markw84

stevenf625 said:


> per the California Poison Control System rating system
> 
> Poison ivy = 1
> virginia creeper = 2a, 2b
> 
> So its safer to eat Poison ivy than it is Virginia Creeper?



Totally different issues. One is a dermal issue caused by the oil in poison ivy/poison Oak (Urushiol oil) That can irritate the skin with rashes and blisters. However, deer fed readily on poison oak.

2a and 2b is about oxalates and how the digestive system handles those. 2a is concern for oxalate crystals that can irritate the mouth, tongue, lips - in particular in mammals. 2b is concern that higher levels of oxalate crystals can lodge in the kidneys and create problems. However, that again is not a known issue as to how exactly that would apply to chelonians, since their kidneys and whole "urinary system" works so differently.


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## MichaelaW

Markw84 said:


> Totally different issues. One is a dermal issue caused by the oil in poison ivy/poison Oak (Urushiol oil) That can irritate the skin with rashes and blisters. However, deer fed readily on poison oak.
> 
> 2a and 2b is about oxalates and how the digestive system handles those. 2a is concern for oxalate crystals that can irritate the mouth, tongue, lips - in particular in mammals. 2b is concern that higher levels of oxalate crystals can lodge in the kidneys and create problems. However, that again is not a known issue as to how exactly that would apply to chelonians, since their kidneys and whole "urinary system" works so differently.


This is interesting in regards to _Manouria_ as their wild diet has been shown to consist of 70% _colocasia_. Apparently, the irritation to the mouth of animals as well as humans is caused by the high levels of oxalate crystals, but it does not seem to affect _Manouria; _however, it is toxic to other species.


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## Tom

daniellenc said:


> I know as a new owner who previously had no knowledge of local weeds it has been hard. On one hand especially in the spring and summer months you want to feed as much variety as possible. Researching whats what at the grocery store is easy because we've been shopping our entire life, but researching your back yard isn't as cut and dry. Sure I knew what plantain and dandelion looked like, but I have a yard full of weird green stuff. I can't look it up by name because I don't know what it is. So the only thing I can do is post it here, or check my States website on weeds. When trying to find a picture of what I'm looking at that can even be tricky because many plants look very similar. So far I feed hosta leaves and flowers, rose of sharon leaves and flowers, white clover, broadleaf plantain, and dandelion weeds and flowers with store greens like chard, collard, mustard, and spring mix. I'm currently growing my own so I know exactly what they're getting but it is a large learning curve being able to identify safe wild plants to provide variety.
> 
> As far as wondering how many tortoises die because of eating toxic plants I am sure it is more than we imagine especially wild species. In captivity it is far easier to control what they consume provided researching before feeding, and not allowing browsing behavior outdoors unless in their own planted enclosure. I am actually enjoying familiarizing myself more with the plants here but it is intimidating at times.



In addition to the resources you mentioned, most nurseries have a local "weed" expert. If you take in cuttings, these "plant nerds" can help you ID your local weeds and possibly tell you about their toxicity levels too.


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## Iochroma

RosemaryDW said:


> We are very strict about telling new owners to avoid feeding absolutely anything they don't know is safe. Is that overkill?
> 
> I know tortoises absolutely suffer as the result of poor diets (like all iceburg or tomatoes!) but how many weed or yard plant poisoning cases have we seen? I know there is one thread on a sulcata getting a bad reaction from eating a load of tulip bulbs but are there others? Has there been a case of death by oxalis, for example?
> 
> The safe weeds list we provide new owners is a great place to get them started but it is limited. We direct new owners to the Tortoise Table but in my opinion, its logic often doesn't make sense and it's overly conservative. I don't rely on it.
> 
> After reading our advice, many owners are terrified to feed the wrong weed but are the dangers well documented? Maybe for sulcatas but what about other types? Would it really be so bad for owners to let their tortoises take a nibble of something unknown while they get used to identifying what's around them? Would that be better or worse than having them stick with a bag of spring mix for extended periods of time?


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## Kapidolo Farms

Someone liked a post of mine here which brought me back to this thread. I am preparing a talk on diet items and in that preparation I have learned better how to clarify my earlier attempts at what should be simple things, but are not.

All plants produce some kind 'secondary' compound(s). These are chemicals that are always present as well as others that are seasonally present. The purpose is to dissuade consumption by herbivores. It is an evolutionary response, the plant may get stuck in a dead end for producing different compounds, or some herbivores co-evolve a mechanism to deal with the compound that discourages consumption.

Most plants we find in the grocery store have been cultivated so as to reduce those secondary compounds relative to out tastes, palatability, and later on for marketability.

Tortoises would seem to have different co-adaptations depending on their range of origen. So European Testudo might not do so well with toxins present in plants that are commonly eaten by Indian Star tortoises, as an example. I think there may well be compound that they can all tolerate well, but we don't know it. This simple matter has lead to much confusion over what is a safe feed or not.

Looking at other posts here I see the Virginia Creeper is possibly considered not a good food item, yet I know of some keepers that feed it often and it is planted in enclosures for desert tortoises, Indian and Burmese Star tortoises, many testudo and I forget what other species. Some will run over to eat it in preference to Mulberry (say it isn't so!).


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## Iochroma

ZEROPILOT said:


> A large female that was out of the pen for maintenance ate several "Easter Lilies" that the previous owner of my house had planted over 20 year ago.
> I waited. Then went to the vet. NOTHING.
> They still pop up every spring. I no longer worry about them. But don't let my animals eat them if I can.
> I've dug up a few with a shovel, but there are so many. There are dozens. Maybe hundreds that line my back yard walk way and the back of the house.



True lilies, like easter lily, are not toxic, in fact they are eaten as a vegetable. For some strange reason they are very toxic to cats.


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## ZEROPILOT

Iochroma said:


> True lilies, like easter lily, are not toxic, in fact they are eaten as a vegetable. For some strange reason they are very toxic to cats.


Time to make my feral cats a salad.
That makes a lot of sense. Because they've eaten a lot of it over the years.(the tortoises)


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## Kapidolo Farms

Iochroma said:


> True lilies, like easter lily, are not toxic, in fact they are eaten as a vegetable. For some strange reason they are very toxic to cats.


 Can I get your 'read' on this https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=339&c=5#.W5xNOlVKhaQ ?


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## Kapidolo Farms

Markw84 said:


> My belief on this is in the wild some tortoises eat poisonous items and they die. They do not pass on those preferences or proclivity. Other tortoises do not have a "taste for" that item and they live. They pass on that trait. Can't imagine they have any intelligence or reasoning to eat a small portion and know if that item got them sick or not!
> 
> I also like this reference from the California Poison Control System that I use and have the shortcut on my desktop. It gives me a better idea of why a particular plant is bad. Also seems to be the most comprehensive database I have found.
> 
> It still leaves us with the question of "does that apply to tortoises?' but that's the stuff for ongoing discussion, observation and research. As we do... I agree - err on the side of caution!



Can you imagine they become fixated on a food item? The corollary is they do learn to avoid some things, based on internal feedback. It does not have to be 'conscious learning.' But they do also have conscious learning, to what extent as as it relates to food choices I don't know. But the 'feedback is not so gestalt as live by not eating the bad stuff and die by eating it. Otherwise there would be no adaptive effect of all the secondary compounds in plants and all the animals that can tolerate them.

Like the salamanders in oregon that are deadly toxic to people, but the garter snakes there can eat them. The salamander becomes more toxic, and the snake becomes more tolerant. i'ts co-adaptation system, some call it evolutionary warfare, but those dramatic pulp magazine writers.


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## Markw84

Will said:


> Can you imagine they become fixated on a food item? The corollary is they do learn to avoid some things, based on internal feedback. It does not have to be 'conscious learning.' But they do also have conscious learning, to what extent as as it relates to food choices I don't know. But the 'feedback is not so gestalt as live by not eating the bad stuff and die by eating it. Otherwise there would be no adaptive effect of all the secondary compounds in plants and all the animals that can tolerate them.
> 
> Like the salamanders in oregon that are deadly toxic to people, but the garter snakes there can eat them. The salamander becomes more toxic, and the snake becomes more tolerant. i'ts co-adaptation system, some call it evolutionary warfare, but those dramatic pulp magazine writers.


Totally agree! And we do know that tortoises have pretty good memory of where food is and develop set routes to prime food sources in their territories. So returning to a plant that does not kill them or make them ill would be happening. Perhaps if marginally toxic, the more resistant of the tortoises survive or at least do better - to pass that on to future generations.


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## RosemaryDW

This is all very interesting but I still have no answer to my original question!


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## Iochroma

Will said:


> Can I get your 'read' on this https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=339&c=5#.W5xNOlVKhaQ ?



Check the wikipedia article on _Lilium - _it lists the culinary uses in many cultures. Tortoise table does not cite any science in their listings.


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## SULCY

My Sulcata pen is completely surrounded by Tree of Heaven trees. This tree is an invasive species and is a real pain to eradicate, cut one down and 12 spring up. After he was in the pen he would eat any leaves that fell off the trees. I found out later that it is listed as extremely toxic. I would not have made his enclosure there if I knew beforehand. He has been eating these leaves for the past couple of years so it looks like it is not toxic to him. I do not know if the leaves loose their toxicity when they fall off the tree it is just that mine eats it regularly and has never had a problem. After a rain and wind storm his enclosure is covered with them and he just goes to town on them. The only reason I rake them up is I don't want them to smother the grass.


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## Kapidolo Farms

RosemaryDW said:


> This is all very interesting but I still have no answer to my original question!


Your original post . . .
"We are very strict about telling new owners to avoid feeding absolutely anything they don't know is safe. Is that overkill?
I know tortoises absolutely suffer as the result of poor diets (like all iceburg or tomatoes!) but how many weed or yard plant poisoning cases have we seen? I know there is one thread on a sulcata getting a bad reaction from eating a load of tulip bulbs but are there others? Has there been a case of death by oxalis, for example?

The safe weeds list we provide new owners is a great place to get them started but it is limited. We direct new owners to the Tortoise Table but in my opinion, its logic often doesn't make sense and it's overly conservative. I don't rely on it.

After reading our advice, many owners are terrified to feed the wrong weed but are the dangers well documented? Maybe for sulcatas but what about other types? Would it really be so bad for owners to let their tortoises take a nibble of something unknown while they get used to identifying what's around them? Would that be better or worse than having them stick with a bag of spring mix for extended periods of time?"

My take on this in short is 'better to err on the side of caution'. If someone is truly "terrified" by others offering caution then they need to engage in a less dramatic (I'm figuring the terrified state of mind) hobby. I suggest often that oxalates are not a thing for tortoises, and that protein is good (when balanced with much water) and I get the idea people think I'm being eccentric. Even after I explain in detail what the specifics are.

So to suggest something 'MAY be toxic or hazardous' is not the same as 'the tortoise will be dead before it swallows a second bite', but if that's what someone reads from 'MAY be toxic or hazardous', then they may not be a suitable tortoise owner, maybe they should have a pet where the food is out of a can they buy at the grocery store, and that's okay too. 

As for specific toxic reactions, I don't have any to report.


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## tortoisenana

MichaelaW said:


> I work as a vet tech so I've seen numerous interesting cases, one of which being a large Aldabra and Sulcata die after their owners fed them Nicotiana repanda (Fiddleleaf tobacco plant) from the nightshade family. Two of the other Aldabras nearly did not make it, but apparently they did not consume enough of the plant to be fatal.


Maybe I'm just jaded but if a tobacco plant is not good for my tortoise how could I ever believe that it wouldn't be harmful to me? Just saying.


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## Big Charlie

tortoisenana said:


> Maybe I'm just jaded but if a tobacco plant is not good for my tortoise how could I ever believe that it wouldn't be harmful to me? Just saying.


That's why I don't eat iceberg lettuce. When I first got guinea pigs, I was told to never feed them iceberg lettuce, as it is grown with tons of chemicals.


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## Tom

tortoisenana said:


> Maybe I'm just jaded but if a tobacco plant is not good for my tortoise how could I ever believe that it wouldn't be harmful to me? Just saying.



There are many different types of "tobacco" plants. The ones used for cigarettes are different than the ones referred to in the post you quoted.

The thing that always gets me about intentionally inhaling the smoke from a burning dried plant leaf, is when you see on the news how people frequently die of smoke inhalation in fires. Why anyone would want to intentionally inhale any smoke is beyond me.


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## Wolfpackin

Tom said:


> There are many different types of "tobacco" plants. The ones used for cigarettes are different than the ones referred to in the post you quoted.
> 
> The thing that always gets me about intentionally inhaling the smoke from a burning dried plant leaf, is when you see on the news how people frequently die of smoke inhalation in fires. Why anyone would want to intentionally inhale any smoke is beyond me.



Well...if you believe the advertising..."Addiction IS a disease".


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## TurtleDream

Tom said:


> I get your point here. It just seems to me like common sense though... We tell the new person to feed lots of weeds of the right type and its just seems obvious to me that they will need to spend some time learning to ID their local weeds and which ones to feed. Many times, I phrase it that way in fact. "You will need to invest some time learning about your local weeds and plants. You can post pics here, look on various websites, and find a knowledgable weed identifier at your local garden center. In time, you'll learn how to recognize the good ones and the bad ones, and your tortoise will thank you by living a long healthy life."
> 
> I don't see this as a no-win situation. They got bad pet store advice that will harm or kill their tortoise, and we give them the right info that will help them and keep their tortoise alive and healthy. Is it frustrating, overwhelming or discouraging? Sure it is. I can imagine them spending two hours in the pet store soaking in all the "expert" sounding advice and then spending hundreds of dollars to buy crappy or detrimental products. Imagine my frustration 30 years ago with no internet and few people who had any idea what they were talking about. NO ONE in the entire world could explain the pyramiding thing that we'd been living with for decades. If someone had come along in 1994 and said to me: "Your failing because of this this and this, and here is how to do it correctly…" I would literally have jumped for joy! Sure I would have been pissy about the bad info from the pet store "expert", but that would quickly fade as my new animal began to thrive in the correct conditions. We all had to learn these rings through trial and error. LOTS of error, and lots of animals that suffered and died due to ignorance. Having dozens of knowledgeable people to guide me at every step of the way with every question I could possibly come up with would have literally been a miracle back then. Man, I would have done anything to have a mentor like MarkW, YvonneG, Will, cdmay, or any of two dozen more of the members here on this forum. Holy cow! Type in a question and BOOM! Experience based, helpful, accurate answers in seconds or minutes! That is a win any way you look at it.
> 
> I guess this is all a matter of perception. I'm enjoying this topic and discussion. Please dispute and discuss any point you disagree with, or offer me more guidance from your POV. I'd love new ideas about how to better help people and their tortoises. That is my goal, after all, and my bluntness is not always helpful.



I agree with you better safe than sorry, and some of the alarm for us newly caring for tortoises is the confusion on information. Too much is at least enough to read and find out some things. Figure out what learning and a bit of our own common sense can tell us. But like here it says never feed morning glory and wisteria to name a couple but on AZ Exotic Animal Hospital site it says safe to feed tortoises wisteria flowers, and entire plant for morning glory. 

That's when it starts getting alarming. What if someone goes just to AZ Exotic, and never has any alarm bells about others saying never feed these as they are toxic and contain wisterin for wisteria and whatever morning glory has? A lot of research is key, and the why's you offer are important, since no one ever says why something is safe. Knowing why something isn't thought to be safe means being able to investigate further and figure out more about that info on AZ Reptile Hospital, & maybe see it's questionable for some of it's content as being too general for multiple reptile species possibly. Just guessing, but my tort ate wisteria two days in a row and went after new growth leaves wildly. Now it's put up on the trellis and hopefully we're no worse for it. Smiles!


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## Ketta

Markw84 said:


> Is that really true? I don't know and am becoming more and more weighted towards the idea that tortoises are totally different in the way their metabolism treats many items we consider "bad". Another thread going on now was on reducing oxalates and here's a small part of my post...
> 
> _I was interested because We do hear so much about eliminating dietary oxalic acid and how bad oxalates are, but more and more I don't see why. You, Will are far more of an expert on this than I am, hence my interest. Especially with my recent experience with my sulcatas. I was concerned they were eating so much oxalis, and all I heard was that it was really bad and to be avoided because of its high concentrations of oxalic acid. This thread seemed to directly speak to the binding of calcium with oxalates leaving much less "bioavailable". Because I watched my sulcatas consuming large quantities, and, in particular, by laying female, it was forefront in my mind. She laid her first clutch in March. As a young female she also has been laying eggs with thin shells and many eggs break easily as she lays. I am trying to particularly enhance available calcium for her. The first clutch had several broken shells. Her second clutch was the beginning of May right after the oxalis started taking over in the enclosure. So maybe a week or so of eating oxalis rich grazing. That clutch was even worse despite the Mazuri and cuttlebones. By mid May there was far more oxalis than grass. I though she was done laying eggs and wasn't as attentive to pushing calcium, but was still concerned about the oxalis for overall health. She laid again mid June. So those eggs were forming shells while she was grazing on heavy oxalis content. Her last clutch was the best she's ever laid. Nice thick shells, absolutely no broken eggs!!_
> 
> When I had an opportunity to speak with the two main vets and the horticulturist for the Behler Center, in noting almost all their greenhouse enclosures had pothos ivy growing everywhere, I asked about why it is listed as harmful with all the oxalic acid and calcium oxalates (raphides). Their response was it is a non-issue with chelonians. Dogs and cats are bothered and get irritations from the raphides, but chelonians are not affected. They were not concerned about the oxalic acid and it was freely available for any grazing of most all their tortoise species.
> 
> There is so little known about chelonian diet and metabolism. I think we will find a lot of the cautionary items will turn out to be entirely different in the case of chelonians vs. mammals.
> 
> I guess in the meantime, caution is warranted as there are some indeed that are toxic. I am starting to pay more attention to the ingredient that is causing the warning, though.


By Pothos Ivy you mean poison Ivy is it the same?


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## Big Charlie

Ketta said:


> By Pothos Ivy you mean poison Ivy is it the same?


No, it isn't the same. Pothos is a common house plant, also called Devil's Ivy.


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## Ketta

Big Charlie said:


> No, it isn't the same. Pothos is a common house plant, also called Devil's Ivy.


oh ok! They look similar tho,


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## TurtleDream

Ketta said:


> By Pothos Ivy you mean poison Ivy is it the same?


iNot sure what you are asking is that true about. True AZ Reptile site says lots of things are safe for tortoises (it's the longest safe list I've ever seen) that others say don't ever feed. Tortoise Eating lots of Wisteria plant for 2 days with no effect did happen also. I too have been researching oxalates, and have found broccoli, cauliflowers, swiss chard, Bok choy, Iceberg lettuce, Sweet Potatoes, Sprouts of any kind, Corn, Cucumbers, Beet Greens ,spinach and other dark leafy greens and most all fruits have loads of oxalates.

The only ones and the best for us regularly really that are low in oxalates are all lettuces basically(not iceburg), mustard greens, kale, and collard greens. Though again, some put kale on the list as high in oxalates but supposedly they only contain 17mg. compared to spinach which is off the charts. They warn about it for people too and say only eat these about two times a week and there's no worries.

The binding of minerals and calcium means the body is robbed of these needed nutrients and cannot absorb them, and for tortoises the grasses and these other safe green with only little once or twice a week of the others ensures their nutrients are their rewards and not their problem. Sounds sensible to me. Thanks for sharing that iceburg is often grown with lots of chemicals. Red leaf lettuce is high on the list as the best for people and pets with low oxalates. Happy day


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