# 'Wet surface' shell rot thought



## Madkins007 (Jul 31, 2010)

Some torts (Red-foots, at least) seem susceptible to a form of plastron rot that seems similar to 'immersion foot'. When in contact with too wet of a surface for too long, the keratin on the scutes seems to soften and slough or scrape off.

There is rarely any sign of other causes- no pitting, growths, or other signs or fungi or bacteria. It generally stops when the substrate is dried or drained, and the damage seems to heal up (but not go away) pretty quickly.

I got it when I was using sphagnum moss (kept too wet to try to deal with very dry indoor conditions- my fault) and coconut coir (too wet to start with, dried very slowly, dang it). But, I have not seen it in torts nestled down in garden mud or in my mixed soil 'bioactive substrate'.

My question is: Is the type of substrate part of the problem? Specifically- do more acidic substrates contribute to the problem, possibly by making a more acidic liquid that affects the keratin more aggressively?

Have YOU seen this sort of problem? What sort of tortoise, and what substrate if you have.

What do you think about the idea overall, and if you think there is merit, how do we use this to help the torts?


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## Tom (Jul 31, 2010)

I've only been using wet substrates for a couple of years and only on a few individuals. I haven't had this problem yet, but would love to learn more about it from those that have.


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## movealongmosey (Jul 31, 2010)

My tort was overnight shipped from marc at the turtle source. When I opened up the box and tiny container my red foot was in, I saw that he had poo'd and after I washed him off thats when I noticed shell rot symptoms. So my guess was that it was his own pee & poo that may have caused it, but your observations are sound. I also have used both coconut and sphagnum. But i've never really known if it was moisture or the substrate.


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## terryo (Jul 31, 2010)

When Pio was younger, I had Cyprus mulch on top of soil for a substrate, and the plants were buried into the soil. It was always wet from watering the plants and misting every time he came out. Eventually he got a shell fungus. I cleared it up, and then changed everything in his vivarium. I keep the plants in their pots and just stick them into the substrate. When I water them, I just water into the little pots. I still mist him when he comes out to eat, but basically the substrate stays dry now and I've had no problem since.


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## cdmay (Aug 1, 2010)

If you are talking about the whitish, cheesy crud that usually develops on the plastron but can even spread to the carapace, there are two factors that cause it.
First, being kept constantly wet promotes this condition. I'm pretty sure most tortoises are not aquatic animals. However, the commonly promoted (lately) idea that young tortoises need to be dripping wet gives many newer keepers the idea that their animals require soaking wet habitats. 
The second cause comes from tortoises sitting in areas containing loads of bacteria---like a hide box where the substrate isn't cleaned often. Tortoises that sit in their own feces or urine, or in a substrate that has been soaked in these things will get that fungus. 
Many keepers have discovered that when they build permanent outdoor tortoise houses that have a sand or mulch substrate this fungus appears. It is simply a result of the waste products becoming concentrated in the tortoise house flooring over time coupled with the high humidity of an overly wet environment.
Wild caught yellow foot tortoises are sometimes seen with this condition as they prefer places that are damp or even actually wet for long periods of time.
This whitish fungus is very easily spread from tortoise to tortoise and a keeper has to be alert to eliminating it along with eliminating the causes. If left unchecked it will erode the lamina of the shell and can cause some serious pitting.
The encouraging thing is that the condition responds very well to treatment. I have seen adult red foots with the entire plastron looking as if it had been smeared with cream cheese become completely free of the disease with good care.


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## chairman (Aug 2, 2010)

I've had shell rot problems once with one of my hingeback tortoises. He was an adolescent, short-term captive that I had shipped to me. He wouldn't eat or move for 3-4 months from the stress of it all. Well, he didn't move much. I kept his substrate raked smooth so I could look for tracks to determine whether he was moving and just happening to end up in the same spot in the same hide time after time. He would definitely go weeks without taking a step. He got a lot of forced soaks in water containing an electrolyte solution and liquid vitamins marketed for reptiles. His substrate at the time was orchid bark that I kept way too dry; at that time I thought that ambient humidity, not substrate humidity, was what he needed, and I lived in a very humid part of FL. I noticed that, over time, his failure to move from the spot where he dripped 'dry' appeared to cause the rot. I stopped the rot, and it healed up, by patting my tort dry with a towel after the soaks and placing him on a dry spot of substrate.

Hope the info helps.


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## Madkins007 (Aug 5, 2010)

CDMay/Carl-

I have not seen any cheesy growths or other signs of fungi or bacteria, but maybe I am just seeing it at the earliest stages?

What I see looks like the regular plastron, but a bit pale and soft- soft enough to scrape away with fingernails. The loss of the protective layers can certainly open the way for secondary infestations, though.

It fits my theory nicely that sitting in its own urine is one cause of the condition- urine is acidic.


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## cdmay (Aug 5, 2010)

_[quote='Madkins007' pid='155855' dateline='1281039925']
CDMay/Carl-

I have not seen any cheesy growths or other signs of fungi or bacteria, but maybe I am just seeing it at the earliest stages?


I think it is probably the same thing. When it become well advanced then it looks like what I described._


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## cdmay (Aug 7, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> CDMay/Carl-
> 
> I have not seen any cheesy growths or other signs of fungi or bacteria, but maybe I am just seeing it at the earliest stages?
> 
> ...



I should probably clarify what I meant about that the fungus when I described it as being 'cheesy'... that wasn't really an accurate description. While it *looks *cheesy, it is as Madkins007 says...sort of soft and can be scraped with a finger nail.


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## ekm5015 (Aug 7, 2010)

I think that at least part of the enclosure needs to be kept less dry so that the tort is not in wet conditions all the time. Even water turtles have the need to get out of the water to dry off, partially to get the suns ray and warm up, but also to avoid shell rot.

I also think each tort species is diffent. As Tom has pointed out in his pyramiding experiment Sulcatas seem to be almost immune to shell rot. He is keeping them in conditions with extremely high humidity with no ill effects. Other species such as redfoots seem to be suseptable to shell rot.

The reason torts outside enjoying a mudhole do not get shell rot is because they can dry off. A tort kept in an enclosure with entirely moist substrate has no where to avoid the moist conditions.


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## Madkins007 (Aug 7, 2010)

ekm5015 said:


> I think that at least part of the enclosure needs to be kept less dry so that the tort is not in wet conditions all the time. Even water turtles have the need to get out of the water to dry off, partially to get the suns ray and warm up, but also to avoid shell rot.
> 
> I also think each tort species is diffent. As Tom has pointed out in his pyramiding experiment Sulcatas seem to be almost immune to shell rot. He is keeping them in conditions with extremely high humidity with no ill effects. Other species such as redfoots seem to be suseptable to shell rot.
> 
> The reason torts outside enjoying a mudhole do not get shell rot is because they can dry off. A tort kept in an enclosure with entirely moist substrate has no where to avoid the moist conditions.



Certainly true enough, but not really on topic.


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## chadk (Aug 7, 2010)

I started using coconut fiber and spag moss and kept it moist all the time until I noticed the spots starting on the plastrons of my hatchlings. So now it is dry and I just mist their shells a few times here and there and also keep the ambient humidity high as well. When they are a little bigger, I'm switching to soil and probably and area of bark\mulch.


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## Redfoot NERD (Aug 7, 2010)

Actually anything that is 'related' is on-topic.. so does warm temps and high humidity [ regardless the source ] tend to be the combination where a bacteria likes to grow? 

Is it possible [ or advisable to attempt ] to create a "sterile" warm-humid atmosphere that is considered best(?) for any given species?

Your Q?'s considered -

My ( basically 2 years and older ) redfoots - inside and outside - have 'hides' that are dry cypress mulch. Outside their hides are cleaned of anything in the spring before they are brought outside.. actually more like the cypress is changed. Anything that was growing in there was dead from the freezing temps anyway.

So acidic conditions being the source? Possible but doubtful. I've noticed some of the 'flaky' 'whitish spots Carl mentioned on some of all ages and sizes and others are seemingly untouched by it all. 

And I've noticed that keeping the hatchlings in plastic containers that are tilted so the water for drinking and 'soaking' in runs to the opposite end of where the moss is.. works best when the moss is sprayed [ and tossed ] to maintain moisture but not so that they have "wet" on the plastic [ plastron ] surface. IF the moss becomes too wet and unable to be "fluffed" then there IS the condition present to cause the first ( and obvious ) stages of the fungus-type growth! The moss is replaced at that time.

If any wet ( regardless the source ) is too dominate redfoots seem to have that tendency to grow that stuff on their plastron. Mine outside have had mud/dung, etc. 'caked' on their plastrons with signs of the aforementioned.. or not.

So the short of all that long.. to answer your question.. is - ambient/ humidity from above is good.. too much from below can be bad. If that makes any sense? I can not point at any one source Mark.

NERD


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## Candy (Aug 8, 2010)

When I got Ruby from Tyler I was so excited to get a baby and was going to do it right. Yeah. Well I put her on moss and made sure that I sprayed it everyday so she would have a lot of humidity. Then she started to get the shell rot on her plastron. I felt so bad thinking that this didn't happen to Dale. So I stopped spraying it and just started spraying her everyday and it stopped. Now I spray a certain part of their enclosure and make sure they get sprayed once a day when I feed them and that's it. Usually there place is kept quite dry compared to Ruby's was in the beginning. I don't think it was do to her urine I think that it was do to her sitting on too much water all of the time. Don't tell Tyler I didn't want him to know.  

I think he's got it right here.

he reason torts outside enjoying a mudhole do not get shell rot is because they can dry off. A tort kept in an enclosure with entirely moist substrate has no where to avoid the moist conditions.


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## terryo (Aug 8, 2010)

I agree Candy. The same thing happened with Pio. Now that he's outside, I spray down and water his enclosure in the AM and that's it. I don't touch his hide at all. It's like a cave made with a slate top. I stuck my hand it there, and it's dry, but cool and humid, compared to the rest of his enclosure wher it's hot from the sun. Whatever dried leaves that were in there have flattened out by now, but it's not wet.


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## Madkins007 (Aug 9, 2010)

So, has anyone seen this sort of rot when using real soil, sand/soil mixes, or mud? 

I sort of am suspicious of the 'dry off' theory, but only because I've seen the rot in a habitat with lots of big dry spaces, but excess moisture (and moss) in a hide.


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## Laijla (Aug 12, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> So, has anyone seen this sort of rot when using real soil, sand/soil mixes, or mud?
> 
> I sort of am suspicious of the 'dry off' theory, but only because I've seen the rot in a habitat with lots of big dry spaces, but excess moisture (and moss) in a hide.



Hi Mark! Great thread considering I JUST went through this with my little redfoot Jet. We had a month of rain and he stays in his hides 80% of the time. His outdoor enclosure is topsoil with cypress on top. I know he is out and about a lot because he keeps the plants in there mowed down... but his two hide were sphagnum moss and could not dry out with all the rain. I used the betadine wash and ointment and mainly let him dry out on bottom - within 2-3 days he looked great! I replaced the moss with cypress mulch and his shell looks super now. I'll try and post some pics of his plastron this weekend.


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