# the other side of basking



## John (Apr 2, 2011)

so a couple things got me thinking here,the first being the red kangaroo who not only must seek shade during the heat of the day but also licks its fore paws too cool its own blood,I realize it does this too survive the heat but it set me thinking about the other side,the cooler temps,so I started looking at range maps and temp changes in those ranges,rainfall etc.anyway I guess the question here is are these animals just surviving the cooler temps in there habitat or are they needed in some way?I continueously see temps no lower then 80 recommended for leopards but in there natural range the climate changes and can be as low as 50 derees for extended periods.so again are they just surving in these periods or is this cool down necessary for them in some way we see plenty of theory on optimal temps at the high side but is there an optimal temp at the low end as well? thanks john


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## Tom (Apr 2, 2011)

Good question John. I don't have the answer, but your question made me think of the people who don't hibernate their tortoises (I'm mean the species that are "supposed" to hibernate), yet they still have good breeding success and healthy tortoises. My adult sulcatas have always survived and been healthy over out relatively cold winters with just a Kane mat, but they seem much more vital and I've gotten more than triple the number of last years eggs since I built them a warmer, temperature controlled night box.

There was a guy at the TTPG conference that had some rare species of Vietnamese box turtle that nobody could get to produce viable offspring. He left them outside over a snowy Texas winter and got his first viable offspring out of his "Tropical" species.

As I said, I don't know the answer, just adding some points to the discussion.


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## Cfr200 (Apr 2, 2011)

Tom said:


> There was a guy at the TTPG conference that had some rare species of Vietnamese box turtle that nobody could get to produce viable offspring. He left them outside over a snowy Texas winter and got his first viable offspring out of his "Tropical" species.
> 
> As I said, I don't know the answer, just adding some points to the discussion.



Tom, I know other animals and plants that when they are threated produce offspring to help their species survive. Even if it means using their last bit of energy up to do it. I think that sometimes these animals need a cue from nature when to do specific things. Not saying they cannot do them with out this stimuli but that this stimuli triggers a response that is hardwired into them. This is what I think happened with the Box turtles they had a stress on their systems that said hey we might not survive we need more numbers. It also might show that somewhere in their ancestral past that they did hibernate at one time and still might be capable of doing it if the need arose.


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## John (Apr 2, 2011)

Tom said:


> Good question John. I don't have the answer, but your question made me think of the people who don't hibernate their tortoises (I'm mean the species that are "supposed" to hibernate), yet they still have good breeding success and healthy tortoises. My adult sulcatas have always survived and been healthy over out relatively cold winters with just a Kane mat, but they seem much more vital and I've gotten more than triple the number of last years eggs since I built them a warmer, temperature controlled night box.
> 
> There was a guy at the TTPG conference that had some rare species of Vietnamese box turtle that nobody could get to produce viable offspring. He left them outside over a snowy Texas winter and got his first viable offspring out of his "Tropical" species.
> 
> As I said, I don't know the answer, just adding some points to the discussion.



thanks for the response tom the hibernation thing is also something,that would fit into my question,actually it crossed my mind after posting the thread,definately something worth me thinking more about

So after thinking about the hibernation thing a little more I think it falls outside my line of thinking.no doubt a hibernating species does so too survive in its natural environment and it makes sense that if its environment changed and did not get cold the need too hibernate would fade.
But the question is for a non hibernating species whose natural climate may range from 50 degrees too 100 degrees might the lower end of the temp range also be vital in some way?and now another question out of this,if a hibernating species can adapt to not hibernate might it be possible to slowly adapt a non hibernating species to hibernate?


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## Balboa (Apr 2, 2011)

On Hibernating:
There is a certain respected, former member who hibernates "non-hibernating" species successfully, even though he insists hibernating is an unnecessary risk. 
Essentially, this implies that the ability to brumate to survive conditions that excede the torts ability to continue to function is instinctive and common to most if not all tortoises (and possibly other chelonians). In simpler words, they can all hibernate, but only do it when needed in the wild.

As to cold being required:
This has been suggested for some species. It all seems to be speculation though. Since they are exposed to cooler conditions (but not so cool to require brumation) in the wild, they may require it in captivity. (cool temps at night, or seasonally)

The counter argument seems to be along the lines of; While active, a tort is doing everything it can to maintain an ideal core temp. That's what all its behaviors pivot around. What purpose does it serve to make this more difficult?


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## John (Apr 2, 2011)

Balboa said:


> On Hibernating:
> There is a certain respected, former member who hibernates "non-hibernating" species successfully, even though he insists hibernating is an unnecessary risk.
> Essentially, this implies that the ability to brumate to survive conditions that excede the torts ability to continue to function is instinctive and common to most if not all tortoises (and possibly other chelonians). In simpler words, they can all hibernate, but only do it when needed in the wild.
> 
> ...



lol not trying too start a trend there big fella,just thinking out loud.

My answer is that if a method is working without failures then leave it alone.but in the case of leopard tortoises it seems they have troubles in captivity that I can not accept would be "the norm"in thier natural habitat.of course it could just be that weak animals that would have perished in the wild have been saved in the hobby and were able too reproduce weaking the gene pool.


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## Tom (Apr 2, 2011)

Well as I noted in my first response my sulcatas adapted and survived for roughly seven outdoor winters with occasional below freezing temps. Never seemed to bother them in the least. While they DID survive it, they seem to be doing better with the new routine.

As far as temp ranges for leopards in the wild: If they are all one species, with no recognized sub species, then the temp range would have to be more like 28-100's. We hit 28F in Jo'berg SA one night while I was there in 1998 and it was regularly in the 30's down in and around Capetown when I was there in 2005 for several months. I had to go buy more warm clothes, because I wasn't prepared for it to be THAT cold all the time. I didn't see it, but my SA friends told me that in some of the mountain ranges there it snows all winter long and the leopard tortoises hibernate up there.


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## John (Apr 2, 2011)

Tom said:


> Well as I noted in my first response my sulcatas adapted and survived for roughly seven outdoor winters with occasional below freezing temps. Never seemed to bother them in the least. While they DID survive it, they seem to be doing better with the new routine.
> 
> As far as temp ranges for leopards in the wild: If they are all one species, with no recognized sub species, then the temp range would have to be more like 28-100's. We hit 28F in Jo'berg SA one night while I was there in 1998 and it was regularly in the 30's down in and around Capetown when I was there in 2005 for several months. I had to go buy more warm clothes, because I wasn't prepared for it to be THAT cold all the time. I didn't see it, but my SA friends told me that in some of the mountain ranges there it snows all winter long and the leopard tortoises hibernate up there.



Tom were you in africa studying leopards?I have also been there twice late 80's I don't mention it though because I was there while in the marine corps and not to study torts so for me to mention my time there might mislead people.the ranges I mention are not confined too the south,the number 50 degrees is just an example too show that temps there do go below 80 quite frequently throughout the range.

If they are all one species, with no recognized sub species, then the temp range would have to be more like 28-100's. 

As far as subspecies goes we are both aware that the scientific community is in debate in both directions some for one species and others argue there are in fact several sub species.I guess it depends on what we as individuals believe.and of course this is another very debateable topic,maybe next thread.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Apr 2, 2011)

Great topic John, interesting!


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## Tom (Apr 2, 2011)

squamata said:


> Tom were you in africa studying leopards?I have also been there twice late 80's I don't mention it though because I was there while in the marine corps and not to study torts so for me to mention my time there might mislead people.the ranges I mention are not confined too the south,the number 50 degrees is just an example too show that temps there do go below 80 quite frequently throughout the range.
> 
> 
> As far as subspecies goes we are both aware that the scientific community is in debate in both directions some for one species and others argue there are in fact several sub species.I guess it depends on what we as individuals believe.and of course this is another very debateable topic,maybe next thread.





I was was there shooting a Mercedes commercial with baboons the first time and a movie with my dogs the second time. We had something like 14 different shooting locations and almost all of it was out in "wild" areas. The two other U.S. trainers that I was there with were the boss and his fiance. I was definitely a third wheel. I quickly befriended several of the locals and spent all of my spare time seeing the sights and the culture. We had about 15 South African trainers and 30 or so South African dogs on the movie. I became fast friends with several of them both at work and on our days off. They were a fantastic bunch of people. My girlfriend there was pretty "outdoorsy" and she took me to all sorts of spots that only the locals know about, as well as the usual touristy spots. There is a spot there at the very tip of the cape where you can actually see the Indian Ocean colliding with the Atlantic. There is a visible line where the two different oceans run into each other and it runs all the way to the horizon. If you go there on google earth you can see the lighthouse at the tip of the cape. We actually hopped the guardrail and walked all the way to the edge of the cliffs at the Southernmost tip of the African continent... sorry, off topic...

As far as classification goes: I've only ever seen the two types over here. The ones most of us call "babcocki" or "regular leopards", and the ones we call "pardalis pardalis" or "South African Leopards". I couldn't begin to tell you what the state of wild leopards is over there. I'm sure the scientist will argue about it and it will go back and forth for many years.

Marine Corps or not, did you see any tortoises? Did you get much free time to explore? Which part of the country were you in?


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## onarock (Apr 3, 2011)

Tom, your egg comment is interesting. I wonder what would happen if you went back to your old way. Years ago I was told that a cooling period for leopards was required to produce eggs, but that was years ago.



Tom said:


> Good question John. I don't have the answer, but your question made me think of the people who don't hibernate their tortoises (I'm mean the species that are "supposed" to hibernate), yet they still have good breeding success and healthy tortoises. My adult sulcatas have always survived and been healthy over out relatively cold winters with just a Kane mat, but they seem much more vital and I've gotten more than triple the number of last years eggs since I built them a warmer, temperature controlled night box.
> 
> There was a guy at the TTPG conference that had some rare species of Vietnamese box turtle that nobody could get to produce viable offspring. He left them outside over a snowy Texas winter and got his first viable offspring out of his "Tropical" species.
> 
> As I said, I don't know the answer, just adding some points to the discussion.





Ha! We've had this discussion before you and I. Something about torts needing the cooler temps to rest. I still contend that hibernation is not the same as sleep. Hibernation is a defense mechanism and possibly not necessary. Sleep is a necessity, something a tort will not deprive itself of. 



Balboa said:


> On Hibernating:
> There is a certain respected, former member who hibernates "non-hibernating" species successfully, even though he insists hibernating is an unnecessary risk.
> Essentially, this implies that the ability to brumate to survive conditions that excede the torts ability to continue to function is instinctive and common to most if not all tortoises (and possibly other chelonians). In simpler words, they can all hibernate, but only do it when needed in the wild.
> 
> ...





John great question and like I stated above Balboa and myself spent ahhhhhh, lets just say we spent some time discussing this topic. I think in the end we had more questions than answers. And, like others that have posted I cant give you an answer.


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## John (Apr 3, 2011)

Marine Corps or not, did you see any tortoises? Did you get much free time to explore? Which part of the country were you in? 

well tom its been twenty two years and yes Ihave seen chelonians and other reptiles in a few of the many coutries i have been too,but I would not consider this reptile experience just personal memories.free time in the corps lol yeah but it was not spent exploring that was done on my not free time.and my time in africa was confined too the north.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 3, 2011)

squamata said:


> But the question is for a non hibernating species whose natural climate may range from 50 degrees too 100 degrees might the lower end of the temp range also be vital in some way?and now another question out of this,if a hibernating species can adapt to not hibernate might it be possible to slowly adapt a non hibernating species to hibernate?



Man...this question is right up Ed's alley. Too bad he doesn't visit the forum anymore. He told us once a while back that he allows his non-hibernating tortoises to get cold. I don't remember the whole context of the thread, but its here on the forum someplace if one were to research it.


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## John (Apr 3, 2011)

emysemys said:


> squamata said:
> 
> 
> > But the question is for a non hibernating species whose natural climate may range from 50 degrees too 100 degrees might the lower end of the temp range also be vital in some way?and now another question out of this,if a hibernating species can adapt to not hibernate might it be possible to slowly adapt a non hibernating species to hibernate?
> ...



I know where to find ed yvonne.thanks for pointing this out I am gonna put the question too him.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 3, 2011)

I've sent a PM to Josh asking for Squamata to be unbanned.


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## Angi (Apr 3, 2011)

This is a very interesting tread. Thanks guy for the info and ideas.


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## John (Apr 4, 2011)

emysemys said:


> I've sent a PM to Josh asking for Squamata to be unbanned.



lol thanks yvonne,I wonder how many had hoped it didn't get lifted?


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## Tccarolina (Apr 6, 2011)

I allowed my T. g terrestris to brumate in their pen for the first time this winter. The too females buried themselves like my T. t boettgeri do, and my very different looking male T. g terrestris spent the winter on the surface, half submerged under leaf litter, even on nights with frost on the ground. He moved into the sun briefly on the few sunny days. We had a very rainy, cold winter with several weeks of constant fog in January. One of the wettest, foggiest winters in a long time. All tortoises are now up and feeding. All are healthy and active. My climate in CA is quite similar to their native climate. I wonder if other's poor experience with brumating these tortoises was largely stress-induced, and not the actual brumation. I know it gets cold in winter for extended periods in their native habitats, and the same is probably true for many other tortoises. 
I'm not suggesting all tortoises can brumate, just that many probably do in parts of their range in the wild.


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## dmmj (Apr 6, 2011)

squamata said:


> emysemys said:
> 
> 
> > I've sent a PM to Josh asking for Squamata to be unbanned.
> ...



I may not agree with everything you say, but I don't enjoy it when people get banned, unless for a good reason.


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