# Mixed animal tortoise enclosures?



## acrantophis (Apr 23, 2012)

Curious. Does anyone keep their tortoises with other animals? I was thinking more along the lines of a rhino iguana myself. But any other unusual cage mates out there? I bet there are some goats and birds.


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## Tom (Apr 23, 2012)

Not my cup of tea. I think it is risky both for behavior reasons and disease potential.


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## ascott (Apr 23, 2012)

I am not a big fan of that concept either....


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## dmmj (Apr 23, 2012)

I know of red foot keepers keeping hermit crabs together. I would not mix a iguana and tortoise though, sounds like a recipe for disaster, and the tortoise probably would not like a iguana as a cage mate. I stress this all the time, they do just fine by themselves.


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## tyrs4u (Apr 23, 2012)

I was always under the impression that every species has its own place. Sulcatas with Sulcata's, red foots with reds, some keep reds and yellows together. But in general, for health reasons; it's best not to mix and match. Now my Russian has met our new family members, but she has her own home/pen as well as the others.  I hope this helps. Best of luck, and post pictures.... Tehe


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## Katherine (Apr 23, 2012)

I personally do not, nor would I advocate keeping mixed enclosures for various reasons including but not limited to the risks associated with disease, stress, food competition, fighting, and opportunistic bacteria. 

HOWEVER I see many keepers do this and while some have animals that suffer as a result, some are smart about it and incredibly successful, one particular keeper comes to mind... Mother Earth : ) So I suppose like everything else in life, do your homework and develop your own informed opinion- this is hot debate topic in the reptile world so you are bound to get some strong opinions.


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## Baoh (Apr 24, 2012)

It is often that there are several ways to accomplish an end. In this case, I do mix most of my animals in terms of contact. They suffer from no illnesses and, in fact, I often receive rescues from people who do not know what to do and either do not want to or cannot afford to provide vet care. These rescues are quarantined for an extended period and are rarely, if ever, allowed into the main group. I also allow interactions of other sorts. Hermits crabs, Geosarma crabs, some lizards, earthworms, mantises, and some others are intentional. My dogs patrol the yard, for instance. The bunnies, squirrels, birds, deer, and others that enter or come to border their living spaces are not present by design, but I have been given no reason to excessively worry.

I think critically about how a potential animal's behavior may allow or not allow it to mesh with the group such that there is no harassment. I observe if there is any outright aggression. I keep size and, when applicable, sex in mind. I do not put hatchlings with adults, but I will put an ahead-of-the-growth-curve yearling with a docile adult if there are no problems. 

For me, individual differences are key. I have a little Gpp with very high tissue density that is not currently compatible with animals nearly five times her size due to "aggression" on her part. She will try to taste the forelimbs of any cagemates. She is too small to cause mechanical damage, but this can intimidate more timid individuals, which could prevent them from feeding well in her presence. She is also part of a Mazuri-only feeding plan just to see what happens. I also had one of my Aldabras on a Mazuri-only feeding plan, but I will soon start transitioning it to natural graze in gradual fashion.

I have even used another type of mixing to help rehab animals. For some animals who have not been eating for a long time, they may have impaired, reduced, or disrupted microflora. I have some animals that are especially strong feeders, as does any keeper. I will take the fecal material of a healthy heavy feeder and place that in the cage of some animals that come to me that are severely underweight and ill. I may also mix this into baby food and then do baby food soaks. I have rehabbed an on-death's-door Aldabra in this manner, improving its feed efficiency and rate of weight gain. Which animals were the donors? One Aldabra and one female sulcata. The animal has since been placed with my vet and is doing great. He also keeps his Aldabra with his female sucatas without ill effect.

My Gpp that is a sibling of the aforementioned Gpp is kept with other species. It is several times larger than its sibling, although its behavior is more timid. 

It all depends upon how to you go about things and what is right for me may not be right for you. In like fashion, what is right for another may not be right for me. I do not promote mixing species. I do not promote not mixing species. I have no need or inclination to manufacture a cause to rally behind, as there are plenty of other matters I must attend to.


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## JoesMum (Apr 24, 2012)

I understand not mixing species of tortoises due to the possibility that pathogens tolerated by one may not be tolerated by another. This is an easily controlled risk.

Playing devil's advocate now:

Joe lives out in a town garden and encounters assorted bird species, cats, hedgehogs, newts, frogs, ants, spiders, foxes, mice... Is that any different from keeping a formal mixed species enclosure?

There is less likelihood of pathogens carried by the animals being transferred to Joe due to species boundaries, but...


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## EricIvins (Apr 24, 2012)

I keep Cyclura/Ctenosaura with Tortoises and they do just fine........Same thing with Greens.......I even have a group of Redfoots that stay in a walk in with a bunch of Veiled Chameleons, and still no issues.......


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## StudentoftheReptile (Apr 24, 2012)

My opinion: Reptiles are not aquarium fish. It's not nearly as easy to mix and match and toss species together, as it is with fish. In fact, most reasonably knowledgable aquarists would agree that it is not so easy with fish either! But that's another topic...

Like most everyone else, I generally do not agree with the practice for reasons already stated: pathogen transmission, behavior differences, food competition, etc.

I have seen many instances where the conditions aren't "ideal," but the keeper insists that because of the mere fact that "no one has died yet" that everything they're doing is right and others can replicate what they do with equal success. It's quite risky in my opinion and I hate it when I encounter these situations. But regrettably, there's no arguing with these people.

I do believe that a mixed-species habitat is possible WHEN DONE CORRECTLY. The reality is very few keepers really take the time to research all the species involved. They just think X is a rainforest herbivore and Z is a rainforest herbivore; of course, they can go together! WRONG. So many other factors to consider. I mean, few people take the time to do the homework for a single species habitat, so it never ceases to amaze me when so many think they'll be so successfull mixing multiple species.

Assuming all animals have been vet-checked, quarantined, etc, and are healthy, things to consider are:
- habitat size
- territorality / aggression
- cage furnishings
- food competition
- cannibalism (happens more often than you think with species you wouldn't even suspect!)


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## hlester22 (Apr 24, 2012)

I wouldn't. Iguanas can get mean and territorial of their space. Especially during mating season.


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## dmarcus (Apr 24, 2012)

At the end of the day, the choice is yours to make. Everyone will give you their opinions on the matter but ultimately you have to figure out whats best for you and your situation.

Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## tortadise (Apr 24, 2012)

I don't recommend it. I always worry about my torts in my greenhouse because their are other species in their. But naturally. Its hard keeping green tree frogs and of course I have hatched butterfly larvae in my greenhouse but seems I haven't had any problems in the past 8 years that I've had the greenhouse established. I always deworm and sanitize scrub my torts especially in the greenhouse once a month for preventative measures. But I would never intentional place a lizard or any other animal with my torts. Especially other species. I've heardany epidic outbreaks stories that ate very tragic.


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## Jacqui (Apr 24, 2012)

acrantophis said:


> I bet there are some goats and birds.



Just a side note here, years ago (like 40 maybe now... dang I am getting old...) our local zoo moved out of one spot and into a new one. They in their "wisdom" decided to put the two old, large Galapagos tortoises into the children's petting area... with the goats. Long story short, they soon ( a year or three later) decided that all those kids (mainly the four legged ones) always climbing and standing on the tortoises was bad for them health wise (gee, who would have thought  ). So the tortoises were removed.


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## acrantophis (Apr 24, 2012)

Wow! I was just taking a bit of a survey. I have often seen multi-species enclosures in zoos, particularly in europe. Perhaps it's a space issue. The zoo in Sao paolo brazil keeps radiated tortoises with caimen! That seemed a bit crazy! I have a group of western fence lizards who share my sulcata's outdoor enclosure. I obviously didn't put them there, but the heated den and the lack of predators is too hard to pass up I guess! The San Diego zoo keeps tortoises with smaller lizards in many of their enclosures. They keep cordylus with leopards in a beautiful enclosure. I doubt I will ever be putting another animal with my tortoise but I like to ponder...


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## StudentoftheReptile (Apr 24, 2012)

acrantophis said:


> I have a group of western fence lizards who share my sulcata's outdoor enclosure. I obviously didn't put them there, but the heated den and the lack of predators is too hard to pass up I guess!



Yeah, I got a similar situation here with the occasional eastern fence lizard basking in or around my outdoor pen. Obviously, there are things we cannot control, especially in an outdoor habitat...but in the same token, there's no sense in pushing the envelope, right?

Like you said, you didn't put the fence lizards there. But actually paying good money for a rhino iguana or another tortoise, etc. investing time, vet-checking, feeding, etc, and then mixing in the same habitat as your sulcata, is putting all that effort you've put into both animals into jeopardy...for what? Not enough space for 2 separate enclosures? You think the sulcata needs a "buddy?" 

Acrantophis, know that I'm not addressing you personally persay. Just posing these questions rhetorically for any viewers of this thread. Those topics come up a lot. People think "Tank" or "Shelly" needs a friend and/or they just don't have money or space to set-up another cage, so they're basically looking for an excuse to put stuff together.



> The San Diego zoo keeps tortoises with smaller lizards in many of their enclosures. They keep cordylus with leopards in a beautiful enclosure.



That doesn't seem too bad in my opinion. I've been told of the famous African lizard exhibit at that zoo. I've yet to see it myself, but I understand it is very large and well-furnished and can accommodate the multiple species kept in there. Also, most of the species exhibited I believe naturally occur in the same range (not that necessarily good criteria..after all, a green anole and a scarlet kingsnake come from the same area, but I wouldn't suggest keeping them together!). I doubt few private keepers have the space to replicate with the San Diego zoo has done there.




> I doubt I will ever be putting another animal with my tortoise but I like to ponder...



Nothing wrong with that. Again, I have seen successful mixed habitats. The key is research, research, research. And you always have to ask yourself: what is the advantage to keeping ___ with ___?


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## Neltharion (Apr 24, 2012)

I don't mix different animal species with my tortoises intentionally. However, when they are outdoors, I do get native Sharptail snakes that roam into the enclosures to eat slugs and insects off of the vegetation. So far this has not presented a problem. 

I do know a couple locally that keeps giant day geckos with the redfoots that they are growing out in large aquariums. They claim to have never lost an animal or had any problems. Not something that I would personally do, but evidentally they have made it work.


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## acrantophis (Apr 24, 2012)

Wow! Sharp-tailed snakes. Really cool. I get San Diego alligator lizards, side blotch lizards and a large group of western fence lizards. It's really cool.


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## Neal (Apr 25, 2012)

Interesting comments here...

I don't have much in the way of personal experience. I've always kept different tortoise species separate, and we don't have any other types of pets...at one point we had some dogs in with the tortoises, but that was out of necessity and if I had the ability they would have been separate. For me it's more of a concern of requirements of the animal. I like my enclosures to have more of a display quality...I don't know much about Iguanas, but I would assume they would require a lot of different elements for shade, exercise, etc then a tortoise would. I would totally prefer to have a separate enclosure for this purpose. 

I've heard an equal amount of both sides of the argument over the years. There are those who have kept different animals together and have had issues, and those that have had done it successfully. There's a stronger opinion on this forum that the animals should be separated, so I would seek out those people who have done this successfully and try to get their thoughts on the matter so you have a good pool of opinions to pull from then make an educated decision.

Good luck!


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## Yvonne G (Apr 25, 2012)

Our zoo has animals from different continents sharing the same space...for example, emus in with the Galapagos tortoises. Since the tortoises eat the grass and the emus poop on the grass, in my opinion, this is a risky venture. (Australia/Galapagos islands)


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## acrantophis (Apr 25, 2012)

The major concerns of multi species enclosures seem to be parasites and stress. Wouldn't most outdoor tortoises carry a fair amount of nematodes in their gut at all times? Coprophagia could be a problem,unless of course it is still within dietary restrictions. 
Stress is probably the more difficult obstacle. It seems animals other than tortoises would be preferable as cage mates. This would prevent territorial disputes and unwanted breeding. A large enclosure with multiple hides may also reduce stress. Maybe a more arboreal creature would do well with the terrestrial tortoise. It's funny, someone mentioned keeping chameleons with tortoises. My sulcata would eat anything green, or at least sample it. The only critter I could imagine tough enough to share an enclosure with an adult sulcata would be a cyclurid or large ctenosaur. Still i will probably never do this, but I love multi-species, non-chelonian displays in zoos. I bred dendrobatids for 10 years in near sterile conditions. They were all pairs or trios, buy all my display terraria had at least a pair of tiny tree frogs or brookesia.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Apr 26, 2012)

Yeah, stress is always going to be a main factor. Tortoises, with a few exceptions, are solitary critters and generally don't prefer company, whether its another tortoise or something else.

Sulcatas are especially tricky, because they're so darn uppity and territorial. I read a magazine article of a subadult sulcata trying to ram an Aldabra easily 3-4x its own size. The aldabra apparently could care less, but still...imagine the stress for any smaller cage mates. And I have a friend with a very large adult male who repeatedly tried to destroy his AC unit! I've seen youtube videos of sulcatas relentlessly chasing dogs. Obviously, the dogs can easily keep out of the way, but replace the dog with a large lizard. There's no telling what can happen when mixing an adult sulcata with anything IMHO. That's why pairs are typically not suggested. Either keep a large group or a single animal.


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## dmmj (Apr 26, 2012)

While I always advise against it, each individual keeper is gonna have to decide how to keep their tortoises themselves. We are here to offer advice, it is then up to the keeper as to how much or little of that advice they are gonna take.


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## Madkins007 (Apr 26, 2012)

To me, the first question is 'why do you want to do this?'

I mix hermit crabs with my red-footeds, and if I had more of a greenhouse or enclosed setting, I would love to add some small geckos or anoles. Both of these would serve to help manage the habitat and make things easier for me and healthier for the torts. 

These species have behaviors that are different enough that they are not much bothered my each other, and if anyone gets eaten, it will be the torts doing the eating. (I learned about these ideas from a European keeper, where it is apparently a fairly common practice.)

Sometimes the answer I get is something along the lines of 'I need to save space'. To me, this is a poor reason- get rid of some animals so they all have the right space and cares. Sometimes it is something like 'it would look cool', which isn't a bad reason, but then it falls to the keeper to do their homework and make sure there are no hidden boobie traps. 

I don't see any real concerns about housing red- or yellow-footeds and iguanas together, but dang- that would take a BIG space to do right. Iggies need a large vertical space, torts need a large horizontal space- you'd be looking at something like 8' long, 8' high, and 4' wide or so. Yikes!


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## LeaderLeprechaun (May 2, 2012)

dmmj said:


> I know of red foot keepers keeping hermit crabs together. I would not mix a iguana and tortoise though, sounds like a recipe for disaster, and the tortoise probably would not like a iguana as a cage mate. I stress this all the time, they do just fine by themselves.



Ive also read up about how keeping hermit crabs with red foots is a good idea because they help with keeping the terrarium clean. Besides that in my opinion I wouldnt recommend it. Its like keeping the bunnies with the dogs. Are you sure the dog wont hurt the bunny? Anything can happen and coming home to a dead/hurt tort wont be fun for you or for him/her.


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## acrantophis (May 3, 2012)

LeaderLeprechaun said:


> Ive also read up about how keeping hermit crabs with red foots is a good idea because they help with keeping the terrarium clean. Besides that in my opinion I wouldnt recommend it. Its like keeping the bunnies with the dogs. Are you sure the dog wont hurt the bunny? Anything can happen and coming home to a dead/hurt tort wont be fun for you or for him/her.



An injured pet is definitely not an option. My question was more for larger outdoor tortoise enclosures containing the big four geochelone species. Few animals are capable of actually harming one of these big species. The concern was more for the roommate. I had suggested larger arboreal Or semi-arboreal iguana species. In so. California many herp breeders and the zoo here keep larger multi-species outdoor enclosures. I have been to zoos all over the world and it is rare to see single species tortoise cages. 
Indoors, different story. I can think of few suitable examples. Maybe a large palaudarium with a spotted turtle and a pair of lady gouldian finches?! ;-/


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