# Caring for sulcatas naturally vs. artificial



## evydot (Mar 16, 2017)

Hello,

So I have a new sulcata that is about 3 month old. I read articles and bought all the supplies needed. The lamps, the food, the tortoise house. But just recently read http://ojaisulcataproject.org/pyramiding.html
About how all this artificial lighting and constant warm temperatures are bad.

Now I'm just confused on what I should do. 
Help


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## JoesMum (Mar 16, 2017)

I suggest you ignore all the conflicting advice out in the wider world and stick rigidly to the care sheet on here. 

It's written by @Tom who has vast experience of raising perfect Sulcatas. 

What they need, is the correct temperatures, the correct humidity and UVB light.

Artificial lamps are absolutely fine if you use them correctly. In many parts of the world, the sun is nowhere near as reliable or consistent 

This is all you need to read
How to raise a healthy Sulcata
For those who have a young Sulcata
Beginner Mistakes


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## Markw84 (Mar 16, 2017)

evydot said:


> Hello,
> 
> So I have a new sulcata that is about 3 month old. I read articles and bought all the supplies needed. The lamps, the food, the tortoise house. But just recently read http://ojaisulcataproject.org/pyramiding.html
> About how all this artificial lighting and constant warm temperatures are bad.
> ...


There is a lot of old, outdated info if you search the web - you don't know what you are getting, when it was written, and if the author has most importantly been able to raise tortoises smooth in a duplicable way that translates to the climate in which you live. The article you cite is indeed outdated. The referenced source for most of the conclusions has been proven wrong as pertaining to pyramiding.

You can trust the info you get here. LIve by the posts on the top of the sulcata section! @Tom did a definitive, open experiment for all to watch and critique. Since then this method has proven successful by all who have adopted it. This forum is replete with examples of great, healthy, and smooth sulcatas raised in this manner. I have been keeping tortoises for over 50 years now, and sulcatas now since 1991. I researched, conversed with curators of most major zoos with tortoises at that time, and frequently talked with the leading herp vet in the world - Dr Fredrick Frye. We all tried everything and all the info on the article you cited was info I often referred to myself. But I always had tortoises that pyramided. It was only until I read Tom's post on his experiment on pyramiding that I finally started getting smooth, beautiful sulcatas. To this day, I use it on all my tortoises with the best of results.


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## Gillian M (Mar 16, 2017)

evydot said:


> Hello,
> 
> So I have a new sulcata that is about 3 month old. I read articles and bought all the supplies needed. The lamps, the food, the tortoise house. But just recently read http://ojaisulcataproject.org/pyramiding.html
> About how all this artificial lighting and constant warm temperatures are bad.
> ...


A very warm welcome to the forum!


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## Tom (Mar 16, 2017)

evydot said:


> Hello,
> 
> So I have a new sulcata that is about 3 month old. I read articles and bought all the supplies needed. The lamps, the food, the tortoise house. But just recently read http://ojaisulcataproject.org/pyramiding.html
> About how all this artificial lighting and constant warm temperatures are bad.
> ...



Hello and welcome to the forum.

Ojai Sulcata Project is my good friend Dave Friend. He is a great human being, but he was still following the old ways, and getting the old results, when he and I met about 8 or 9 years ago. When I came out with all of my monsoon season info and the results from my experiments, it offended a lot of the old school guys. They didn't know what they were talking about, and I said so. I contradicted all of their advice because their advice had failed for me, failed for them and failed for everyone else that tried it. Many of them didn't like some young gun contradicting them. Understandably so. I invited them to try it and prove me wrong, or go head to head with me and show results, but none would take me up on it. Instead, I kept showing pic after pic of my results, and literally hundreds or thousands of people all over the world have started doing it the monsoon way, with the same results.

Dave typed up that website and article in response to this rising tide of change. He'd never tried it my way, and he was set on repeating the old ways that didn't work. He is getting on in the years and his health has been on again and off again, but he and I run into each other and talk now and then. About a year and a half after writing that article, he admitted to me in a phone conversation that I might be right about some of my new fangled ideas. He'd been talking to other old-timey "experts", and my results were undeniable. Sadly, he's had other priorities in his life that have superseded changing the info on that old website, so there that bad info sits. Countless people doing "research" for their new tortoise find that info, follow it and end up tragically disappointed.

I don't know how to convince a new person who is reading conflicting advice. All I can do is show my results over and over again, and people will either listen, or they won't. Eventually, everyone will learn what I and everyone who has tried it already knows, but some people will have to learn the hard way at their tortoises expense.


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## Tom (Mar 16, 2017)

I also wanted to comment on your title. We frequently hear this "natural" sentiment, but there is a problem. No one knows what really happens in nature with sulcatas. They are one of the least studied species there are. They spend around 95-98% of their lives underground in the wild and they live in a climate that is super hot every day all year long. They have a "dry" season for 8 or 9 months a year, but how dry is "dry". We recently learned that in India, the "dry" season has less rain and the relative humidity drops all the way down to 60-80%. During the rainy season humidity is usually 80-100%. Same in parts of Madagascar. Also, even if it is the "dry season" in the Sahel, no one knows what conditions are like 10 feet underground where the tortoises are. We only know what a weather station 2 meters above ground tells us.

What about the "wet" season. None of the old books, experts, vets or breeders ever talked about this 3-4 month period that occurs every year. Think about Florida, New Orleans or South East Texas in summer. That is what the monsoon season is like over in sulcata land. Hot, rainy, humid, marshy and there are puddles and green growing food every where. Guess what time of year baby sulcatas hatch???

My way is THE most "natural" way of all. Keeping a baby on dry substrate with low humidity, cool temps, and feeding it romaine lettuce could not be more UNnatural. It just took me little over a decade and a half of failure to figure it all out. Now, because I and so many other people haves shared this info, you won't have to learn the hard way, as we did.


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## Tom (Mar 16, 2017)

Further, whatever any of us wish to speculate about what life in the wild might be like for a sulcata, the results from thousands of captive tortoises right in front of our faces, cannot be ignored. We know what happens when they are raised in what we call "desert" conditions, and we know what happens when they are raised in what we call "monsoon" conditions. There are 1000's of examples of each to compare and contrast.


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## Markw84 (Mar 16, 2017)

evydot said:


> Hello,
> 
> So I have a new sulcata that is about 3 month old. I read articles and bought all the supplies needed. The lamps, the food, the tortoise house. But just recently read http://ojaisulcataproject.org/pyramiding.html
> About how all this artificial lighting and constant warm temperatures are bad.
> ...


Thank you so much for bringing up this question as it leads to confusion many run into.

Your post got me thinking more and although sounding great and citing references sounds credible - just to give an idea of how things and conclusions are made out of context and how misleading that can be...

On the website you mention in advocating cold nighttime temperatures for a sulcata, the Crying Tortoise is referenced frequently. Pointing to page 65 and using it stating "outside temperature of -7c, inside burrow 15C warmer". Thus concluding burrow temperatures in the wild get to 8C (46f)

What is actually said on page 65 is that A temperature AS LOW AS -7c was recorded. What is not mentioned is page 65 goes on to say by noon it may well be 32C. The truth is actual AVERAGE lows for the area around Gao, Mali is 15C in December - the coldest month. The average high is 31C. The average high in June there is 44C. So you can see the days in that area are always hot. My experiments as well as wine makers tests in using caves to stabilize wine temperatures, show the average ground temperature just a few feet deep is always within 2C of the daily average temperature for the area. The deeper you get the more stable towards annual average! If we use the historical data for the average daily temperature around Gao, Mali in December - we get the average daily temperature of 25C (77f). That means we would get a burrow temperature of 77F in December. And that is the lowest of the year. A far cry from the 46f being justified "by referenced source" of that website.


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## evydot (Mar 16, 2017)

Thank you all for all your replies. This does clarify things. I will keep doing what am doing and following the care sheet. I love my tortoise Mow and want to make sure that I hadn't been doing it wrong this whole time. He enjoys all his lamps and varied diet. Again, thanks.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Mar 16, 2017)

Hello, and a very warm welcome to Tortoise Forum to you and pretty little Mow. 
As you can see, follow the advice given here and ou won't go far wrong.


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