# Spring Green



## Tracy Gould (Dec 11, 2010)

I have got some of this for Shelby is it safe to feed and can it cause an problems if it is ok, I have found out lettuce mixes can cause stones if feed too often so i am trying to find other things to feed through the winter.


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## Tom (Dec 11, 2010)

What is it?


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## Tracy Gould (Dec 11, 2010)

Tom said:


> What is it?



Its from the cabbage family, I know its safe to feed in moderation but i was wondering if it can cause health problems and how often is safe


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## tortoisenerd (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't know what that is...personally I wouldn't feed any type of cabbage ever (I have enough better foods to feed). Problem is with one tort, you don't want to buy a whole head of something that should only be fed in moderation, as it will end up eating a lot of it (or you will toss out a lot). It would be fine in my book to feed that sort of stuff if you have a heard of torts as each one will get very little, but not for one tort. 

I haven't heard of lettuce mixes causing stones...what you would have to worry about is greens high in oxalic acid (which typically aren't in lettuce mixes, which have greens low in oxalic acid unless your mix is high in spinach & red chard, which I pick out). Can you get us more information about what spring green is, and substantiate your statement about lettuce mixes causing stones?


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## Tracy Gould (Dec 12, 2010)

tortoisenerd said:


> I don't know what that is...personally I wouldn't feed any type of cabbage ever (I have enough better foods to feed). Problem is with one tort, you don't want to buy a whole head of something that should only be fed in moderation, as it will end up eating a lot of it (or you will toss out a lot). It would be fine in my book to feed that sort of stuff if you have a heard of torts as each one will get very little, but not for one tort.
> 
> I haven't heard of lettuce mixes causing stones...what you would have to worry about is greens high in oxalic acid (which typically aren't in lettuce mixes, which have greens low in oxalic acid unless your mix is high in spinach & red chard, which I pick out). Can you get us more information about what spring green is, and substantiate your statement about lettuce mixes causing stones?



I got told that lettuce causes stone by a tort keeper that lives near me, I looked on the computer because this panicked me as we have had bad snow here so i have been feeding different lettuce mixes and complete every so often till the snow goes and i can try to find food outside, the comp came up with info saying it was bad and the way it read it back her up but when i just when back and re read it, it was the other stuff that caused the stones and lettuce causes gut problems if over fed. It was typed out a bit confusing.

here is a link that explains what Spring Green is.

http://www.hub-uk.com/vegetables/spring-greens.htm

Its not large and i plan on chopping it up and putting it in small amounts in the freezer. I bought it as i remembered seeing some were that it was safe to fed. I doubled checked before giving it. I am really struggling to find a varied diet for Shelby at the moment i planted weeds but most of them failed and died on me, We have had over a Foot of snow here its finally gone but we are going to get more this week so the few weeds i still have in the garden are not on the menu. I have a Complete food as back up but do not want to use this that often as it is high in protein so i
have been looking for thing i can buy to vary her diet a bit better. This is the first time i have over wintered a Tort and i am finding feeding her pretty stressful I thought i was doing ok with the mixed lettuce bags which i swap about to vary the different lettuce but then someone tells me that about the stones!


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## Yvonne G (Dec 12, 2010)

Your bags of mixed lettuces is just fine for your tortoise. We feed them all the time. I usually try to find things from the yard to add to it, like grape leaves, mullberry leaves, dandelion leaves, clover, etc. But its not the lettuces that cause stones. Just be sure to keep your tortoise well hydrated and you should have no problems.

But the Spring Green would not be something I would use too often. 

Margaret Wissman is a bird vet who writes a column in Bird Talk magazine. Here's what she says about plants in the brassica family (which includes Spring Green):

Food plant species in the Cruciferae (Brassicaceae) family contain glucosinolates, which probably play a role in the plantÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s defenses against predators and fungal attack. When consumed by humans and animals, especially in excessive amounts, glucosinolates can inhibit thyroid gland functioning, causing enlargement and atrophy of the gland, or goiter. The Brassica species that contain goitrogens include broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower, rutabaga, kohlrabi and the oilseeds, rapeseed and canola. Cooking will effectively remove the goitrogens, which are also leeched out into the cooking water. Interestingly, glucosinolates and their breakdown products have been shown to inhibit tumor production. The vegetables in the Brassica family are considered to be beneficial in cancer prevention in humans.

While it is not necessary to exclude vegetables in the Brassica family from your tortoiseÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s diet, in this case, I would recommend that you donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t feed them exclusively or more than a few times per week, just to be on the safe side.


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## tortoisenerd (Dec 12, 2010)

Agreed! I would not feed anything in the cabbage family personally. The lettuce mixes are much better than cabbage. If you freeze it by the way, it will turn to a mush like frozen spinach. Much better to feed fresh. I will buy spring mix (which can have about 10 types of greens if you rotate brands, but I pick out any spinach or red chard which is high in oxalic acid) plus a rotation of 1-2 other greens a week (which may have moderate amounts of oxalic acid, and aren't in the spring mix, like dandelion, mustard, collard, turnip, watercress). I do about 50-50 of that, maybe a it heavier than 50% on the lettuces though. Then, I have about 5% of the diet as treats like organic edible flowers, pumpkin, butternut squash, cactus pads, etc. If you are creative in looking at different types of grocery stores (organic, typical chain store, maybe a smaller non-chain store, hispanic, Costco or Sam's Club, etc) you may find there is a lot out there in terms of greens. From my local grocery stores I am able to rotate over 20 foods over a matter of a couple months. Many have good luck growing greens indoors in winter as well. Carolina Pet Supply and some other sites sell tortoise seed mixes you can grow in trays or planters indoors, using grow lights if needed. There are hearty types of hibiscus that can be grown indoors. I know its confusing to hear advice from someone, but always best to do the research from a reliable source and not take any one person's word for it (ps. I find this forum a VERY reliable source...someone is always quick to chime in with a correction if needed). Best of luck!


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## Madkins007 (Dec 12, 2010)

Relax.

There are a lot of horror stories out there about oxalates or oxylic acid, goiteronigens, Brassicas, etc. 

Members of the cabbage family (the Brassicas, which are goiterinogens) include mustard greens, collard greens, and other greens we routinely recommend. Cabbages and their relatives are generally low in oxalates, OK in calcium levels, help fight cancer, etc. The only real problem is that they are low in or bind up iodine- which the tortoise needs some of (giant tortoises need more than most). Simply rotating a Brassica with a non-Brassica in a varied, balanced diet will take care of it. If you are really worried, add a tiny pinch of iodinized salt to a meal after serving some Brassicas.

Plants with oxalates or oxylic acid are about the same issue. Tortoises routinely eat plants that are poisonous to humans because of oxalates, and survive quite nicely on them. Oxalates bind the calcium in that plant (the oxalates do not reach out and steal calcium from the animal or other plants) so mess up the Ca: P ratios in that plant or meal. On the other hand, the oxalate crystals help 'flush' out the system, and by reducing the calcium intake, allow better iron intake (which is inhibited by calcium and may be a reason torts seek out high oxalate plants in the wild- iron is a critical nutrient.)

If you serve something with high oxalates (mostly spinach and parsley in the grocery store), just add a dash of calcium powder to a meal afterwards.

Bladder stones are probably more the result of dehydration and/or too much calcium without enough vitamin D according to Dr. Mader's "Reptile Medicine and Surgery", which sort of poo-poos the idea that either oxalates or goiterinogens are a big deal.

A balanced, varied diet with proper vitamin D and hydration is the key.


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## Tracy Gould (Dec 13, 2010)

Ok thanks for the help i have frozen the Sping Green and will use it up on the family instead, I had feeding her down to a fine art till the winter cold snap hit that made me panic as most of her food comes from the garden i did buy a seed mix and plant it in trays and pots but only a few did not die on me, i am starting more off and keeping my fingers crossed. I will stick with rotating the bags of lettuce and grow some more cress and i have yet to try her on mustard and turnip tops but will give them a go. I also plan on starting some flowers off in trays and am going to look to see if i can find someone who grows them with out sprays and fertilizer. I knew over wintering would be a challenging but i thought i was prepared lol. I have till the middle of the week then we are getting another load of Snow so i may go out and see if i can find some weeds that are still alive and dig them up and pot them.


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