# Spinach - it is not as bad as you may think.



## Kristina

"Don't feed your tortoises spinach - it is bad for them."

I see this statement a lot and it is completely incorrect. Spinach is just fine as part of a varied diet. It does have a higher concentration of oxalic acid, but the nutrition that it provides greatly outweighs any bad effects.

Spinach is high in Vitamin A and Vitamin C. It contains Calcium, Potassium, and Omega 3 fatty acids. It also has a high water content.

Spinach also is high in protein - which is what has lead to the mythology of spinach being "bad." For decades, it was thought that excess protein in the diet was the cause for pyramiding. We have found in recent years that this is less than true. Vegetable protein will not harm your tortoises. 

So please, don't be afraid to let your tortoises have spinach as part of their varied diet!


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## chase thorn

i was always wondering why myself! thanks!


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## GeoTerraTestudo

Kristina said:


> "Don't feed your tortoises spinach - it is bad for them."
> 
> I see this statement a lot and it is completely incorrect. Spinach is just fine as part of a varied diet. It does have a higher concentration of oxalic acid, but the nutrition that it provides greatly outweighs any bad effects.
> 
> Spinach is high in Vitamin A and Vitamin C. It contains Calcium, Potassium, and Omega 3 fatty acids. It also has a high water content.
> 
> Spinach also is high in protein - which is what has lead to the mythology of spinach being "bad." For decades, it was thought that excess protein in the diet was the cause for pyramiding. We have found in recent years that this is less than true. Vegetable protein will not harm your tortoises.
> 
> So please, don't be afraid to let your tortoises have spinach as part of their varied diet!



Makes sense. However, over the summer I gave my torts spring mix with spinach, and they avoided the spinach. Either they were just not used to it, or else they could smell that it was not as good for them as other plants.


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## Redstrike

I give my two cherryhead RF hatchlings spinach 1-2 times/month, as you mentioned Kristina, it's packed with nutrients:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2626/2
You can change the serving size in this website to better suit your informational needs...


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## foxboysracing

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> Kristina said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Don't feed your tortoises spinach - it is bad for them."
> 
> Makes sense. However, over the summer I gave my torts spring mix with spinach, and they avoided the spinach. Either they were just not used to it, or else they could smell that it was not as good for them as other plants.
> 
> 
> 
> Just a thought....If that was true.... maybe my kids wouldn't want chips because their bodies know they are bad for them. I am not sure we can rate the healthiness of the food on whether they eat it or not. I would love it if that was true and my body didn't crave chocolate because it's not good for me.
> Good luck with your torties.
Click to expand...


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## jaizei

I think a lot of it's "bad" reputation also goes back to the misconception that oxalic acid would bind calcium from all the food they eat causing MBD, which (most) everyone now knows isn't the case.


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## ascott

as part of a varied diet, alot of things are aok...spinach is indeed one of them....just can not be the bulk of the diet....


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## Kristina

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> Makes sense. However, over the summer I gave my torts spring mix with spinach, and they avoided the spinach. Either they were just not used to it, or else they could smell that it was not as good for them as other plants.



More likely they were just being picky, and in favor of the sweeter lettuces that the spring mix contains  Spinach is quite bitter, but the whole point of my post is that it is NOT "bad" for them at all. In fact it contains more nutrition than the other plants in spring mix. Many of the plants that tortoises eat in the wild contain so much oxalic acid that it makes it toxic to humans and can cause severe burns in the mouth, but does not affect the tortoises at all. Since humans can obviously eat spinach with no ill effects, that gives you an idea of how low the oxalic acid is in spinach compared to something like pothos.


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## zesty_17

i agree, the key term here is "varied." As part of a varied diet your torts can have many things, but spinach should not be a staple in their diet. Unfortunately, in many settings, reptiles are not given enough of a varied diet so that this statement has been implemented as a protective factor against ignorant humans, and not necessarily out of fairness of spinach nutrient content.


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## Kristina

Technically, there should be NO "staple" in any tortoise's diet


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## l0velesly

I try to feed my sully spinach but it always avoids it :[


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## GeoTerraTestudo

foxboysracing said:


> Just a thought....If that was true.... maybe my kids wouldn't want chips because their bodies know they are bad for them. I am not sure we can rate the healthiness of the food on whether they eat it or not. I would love it if that was true and my body didn't crave chocolate because it's not good for me.
> Good luck with your torties.



LOL ... Good example. Animals (including humans) do crave foods they need. However, those cravings have been shaped by evolution in their natural habitat. In the case of humans, we crave sweets, fats, and salt because they are comparatively rare on the savanna where we evolved. In "captivity" (i.e. industrial society) we have them in overabundance, which causes health problems. The same may be said for fruit in the case of redfoot tortoises; craving them is good in the wild, but not in captivity when they are available all the time. As for chocolate, some food scientists think the theobromine in it acts like an opiate, causing people to seek it out for the soothing feeling it brings them. Now, back to spinach...



Kristina said:


> More likely they were just being picky, and in favor of the sweeter lettuces that the spring mix contains  Spinach is quite bitter, but the whole point of my post is that it is NOT "bad" for them at all. In fact it contains more nutrition than the other plants in spring mix. Many of the plants that tortoises eat in the wild contain so much oxalic acid that it makes it toxic to humans and can cause severe burns in the mouth, but does not affect the tortoises at all. Since humans can obviously eat spinach with no ill effects, that gives you an idea of how low the oxalic acid is in spinach compared to something like pothos.



It could very well be that they were picky, or else simply not accustomed to this plant. I have offered it to them in a spring mix a few other times, and they generally eat around it. But perhaps in time, if I offer it in moderation as you suggest, they will accept it. Other plants contain higher concentrations of oxalic acid than spinach, making them more acrid. Do you know if tortoises eat those plants?

I think it is tempting to focus on one aspect of a food, when really every food is a melange of vitamins, minerals, nutrients, secondary metabolic compounds, textures, and flavors. Tortoises can eat plants that contain compounds toxic to mammals without problems. For example, Russian tortoises regularly eat buttercup, even though they contain terpenoids that are lethal to sheep.

I also think that toxicity and anti-nutrition are moderated by a varied diet, but I also think that different tortoises may tolerate different plants, depending on whether they have evolved to deal with them. In the case of spinach, it is native to Central Asia where Russian tortoises are from, but they don't eat it in the wild. Maybe there is something about this plant - whether oxalic acid or some other compound - that makes it unpalatable to them. Perhaps for some tortoises, you have to watch how much spinach you offer so they don't get too much of one thing. However, my guys seem already to sense that they shouldn't be eating too much of this stuff.


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## Maggie Cummings

I have always fed my tortoises spinach as part of a varied diet. I got called out by Stells and Danny several times for feeding it to my animals and recommending it and red and white clover. I have always said that spinach was good for you...I always believed Popeye...

I am glad now that keepers are coming around to believing what I've been saying for years...


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## Kristina

Same here Maggie. I feed the red and white clover too - I buy wildlife pasture mix seed that contains several different varieties.


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## Tom

I have fed it every once in a while to mine for the last 20 years. I just got a whole bag of it the other day from the lunch truck on set.


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## AnthonyC

I guess it just goes to show... Everything in moderation.


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## evlinLoutries

So it doesn't had any impact to our ?

And it is good for daily or just sometimes?

Thanks..


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## laramie

Thank You for that information  I have not feed Wilbur any spinanch for that reason..I had heard that it was bad for them too.


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## Kristina

evlinLoutries said:


> So it doesn't had any impact to our ?
> 
> And it is good for daily or just sometimes?
> 
> Thanks..



No, if fed in moderation, it will not have any negative impacts.

I would not feed it daily, however. Moderation means you have to mix things up. I feed something different every day. Once a week or every two weeks is fine, however. It takes me about two weeks to cycle through all the greens that the grocery store near me carries.

To better explain what I mean by cycling through food items and feeding in moderation, please refer to the article I wrote on "balanced diets." http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread...ises-The-Balanced-Diet-Revealed#axzz1d8ly7Q7I This isn't a care sheet aimed at one particular species, but rather a guideline on HOW to feed the foods that you buy, what foods are good choices, what to avoid and how much of each "group" of food to offer.


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## AnthonyC

So Kristina, if it has no negative effects on torts (if fed in moderation) does it have any positive effects? Is it high in a particular vitamin that our torts need? Naturally I'm being greedy here b/c when I say "torts" I'm referring to Sulcatas b/c that's what I have.


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## tyler0912

I feed tiago spinach in moderation anyway!


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## GBtortoises

I completely agree with Kristina. I have been feeding all of my tortoises of all ages spinach since day one as part of a varied diet. It's true, spinach is "high" in oxalic acid, but then so are most leafy greens along with most root vegetables and their leaves and in many cases the actual vegetable or fruit. 
There seems to be a huge "concern" lately about feeding tortoises foods that contain oxalic acid because it is reported to bind with calcium and render that calcium unusable. The fact is that so far there is no research that shows what, if any effect oxalic acid may actually have on tortoises. There is also no known toxicity saturation level in relation to how much is too much oxalic acid intake for a tortoise. Most studes done with human saturation levels basically state that you'd have to consume unusually high volumes of vegetables high in oxalic acids in a short time to have much if any negative effects. That's really all we have to go on. 

I'm not advocating a lack of concern or prudent caution. I'm just saying that spinach and other greens and vegetables may very well be getting an unnecessary bad rap. I believe spinach and the others _should_ be fed to tortoises as part of a varied, quality diet. Almost all of them have many very beneficial vitamins and minerals.

Just a brief list of some greens containing oxalic acid:

HIGH OXALIC ACID CONTENT:
Lambsquarters, beet leaves, purslane leaves, spinach, swiss chard (leaves & stalks), rhubarb, parsley, amaranth leaves, sorrel.

LOW OXALIC ACID CONTENT:
Dandelion greens, most fruits, kale, watercress, escarole, mustard greens, turnip greens, kale, broccoli, tomatoes, asparagus, cabbage, and most greens not mentioned.


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## Kristina

AnthonyC said:


> So Kristina, if it has no negative effects on torts (if fed in moderation) does it have any positive effects? Is it high in a particular vitamin that our torts need? Naturally I'm being greedy here b/c when I say "torts" I'm referring to Sulcatas b/c that's what I have.


\

Yes, absolutely. If you look at the first post, I listed several of the positive nutritional aspects of spinach, along with some of the needed vitamins that it contains. 

(I have Sulcatas as well  )





GBtortoises said:


> The fact is that so far there is no research that shows what, if any effect oxalic acid may actually have on tortoises. There is also no known toxicity saturation level in relation to how much is too much oxalic acid intake for a tortoise. Most studes done with human saturation levels basically state that you'd have to consume unusually high volumes of vegetables high in oxalic acids in a short time to have much if any negative effects. That's really all we have to go on.



You hit the nail on the head here. The issue is that we are basing nutritional information on what we feed our tortoises on studies done for humans. Tortoises are not humans. We metabolize and absorb things very differently than tortoises do.


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## evlinLoutries

Kristina said:


> No, if fed in moderation, it will not have any negative impacts.
> 
> I would not feed it daily, however. Moderation means you have to mix things up. I feed something different every day. Once a week or every two weeks is fine, however. It takes me about two weeks to cycle through all the greens that the grocery store near me carries.
> 
> To better explain what I mean by cycling through food items and feeding in moderation, please refer to the article I wrote on "balanced diets." http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread...ises-The-Balanced-Diet-Revealed#axzz1d8ly7Q7I This isn't a care sheet aimed at one particular species, but rather a guideline on HOW to feed the foods that you buy, what foods are good choices, what to avoid and how much of each "group" of food to offer.



So if I just gave my torts spinach only, every day, it still have no negative impact?

I'm still curious to this kind of thing, cause many ppl will not suggest spinach as food for tort..


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## Tom

I think any single thing fed exclusively everyday will eventually do harm. No single food meets all of their needs. It could be argued that some of the manufactured pellets MIGHT satisfy all their needs, but even that is very debatable. 

I have no scientific proof, but I think if someone were to feed all spinach every day and nothing else, MBD would eventually show up along with other health problems too.


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## Madkins007

evlinLoutries said:


> Kristina said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, if fed in moderation, it will not have any negative impacts.
> 
> I would not feed it daily, however. Moderation means you have to mix things up. I feed something different every day. Once a week or every two weeks is fine, however. It takes me about two weeks to cycle through all the greens that the grocery store near me carries.
> 
> To better explain what I mean by cycling through food items and feeding in moderation, please refer to the article I wrote on "balanced diets." http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread...ises-The-Balanced-Diet-Revealed#axzz1d8ly7Q7I This isn't a care sheet aimed at one particular species, but rather a guideline on HOW to feed the foods that you buy, what foods are good choices, what to avoid and how much of each "group" of food to offer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if I just gave my torts spinach only, every day, it still have no negative impact?
> 
> I'm still curious to this kind of thing, cause many ppl will not suggest spinach as food for tort..
Click to expand...


Of COURSE it will have a negative impact. Feeding ANY single food item everyday will limit the nutrients that the tortoises need to grow healthy- that is why we offer a variety of everything.

Are you asking if the level of oxylic acid will eventually have an impact? Some people have reported that their tortoises got bladder stones, and they blamed it on spinach. However, Mader's "Reptile Medicine and Surgery" states that there is no one known cause for bladder stones and that dehydration is the likely trigger. (Oxalates and oxylic acids are not even listed in the index of the book!)

Also- don't forget that tortoises of many species are reliably reported eating plants in the wild that are so loaded with oxalates that they are listed as toxic to humans.


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## evlinLoutries

Madkins007 said:


> Of COURSE it will have a negative impact. Feeding ANY single food item everyday will limit the nutrients that the tortoises need to grow healthy- that is why we offer a variety of everything.
> 
> Are you asking if the level of oxylic acid will eventually have an impact? Some people have reported that their tortoises got bladder stones, and they blamed it on spinach. However, Mader's "Reptile Medicine and Surgery" states that there is no one known cause for bladder stones and that dehydration is the likely trigger. (Oxalates and oxylic acids are not even listed in the index of the book!)
> 
> Also- don't forget that tortoises of many species are reliably reported eating plants in the wild that are so loaded with oxalates that they are listed as toxic to humans.



Every day I gave my tort the same menu, I change sometimes like once a week or 2..

But I still gave them moderation food, 

Yup, that's my point on my question, oxylic acid..

I agree that bladder stone triggered by dehydration and (too) dry and hot enclosure..


Maybe sometimes I'll try to give it to my tort as a side menu once a month, cause spinach is easy to find,,


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## Madkins007

I've never been there, but I would imagine that in Indonesia, you would have access to a wider variety of fresher, better foods for your torts than many of us here in the cold parts of the US have. I'm a bit jealous!


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## evlinLoutries

Madkins007 said:


> I've never been there, but I would imagine that in Indonesia, you would have access to a wider variety of fresher, better foods for your torts than many of us here in the cold parts of the US have. I'm a bit jealous!



yeah, we had a lot of fresh veggies here over the year..

u can go here as a holidays trip maybe..

I do jealous to, cause aldabra price was cheaper there than here..

and life in US looks like wealth and calm, I want to move there someday..

with all my


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## Kristina

evlinLoutries said:


> Kristina said:
> 
> 
> 
> *No, if fed in moderation, it will not have any negative impacts.
> 
> I would not feed it daily, however. Moderation means you have to mix things up.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if I just gave my torts spinach only, every day, it still have no negative impact?
Click to expand...


You absolutely cannot feed one thing only, every day. Even if it was something other than spinach, it would still have a negative impact. I very clearly stated that it had to be fed in moderation and mixed in with other things.


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## evlinLoutries

Kristina said:


> You absolutely cannot feed one thing only, every day. Even if it was something other than spinach, it would still have a negative impact. I very clearly stated that it had to be fed in moderation and mixed in with other things.



I gave them the same moderation food every single day, but the main food always siomak or fumak, and then I will mix it with opuntia, hibiscus flower and leafs, and mulberry leafs..

Sometimes I gave them green mustard..

Is it enough Kristina?


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