# Some people



## richalisoviejo (Sep 26, 2009)

Being in the legal profession some of the potential clients can really tick me off. This week I have an appointment with a potential client, heÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s been divorced for two years and now wants to terminate his parental rights from his two children, he thought by doing that he can get out of paying child support. Yeah right!

Boy I nearly bit his head off! Told the jerk IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢d terminate his parental rights but he will pay support until his children reach the age of majority! Taking support away from a child is unenforceable! Then I had him escorted to the door and of course billed an hourly rate for that ten minute conversation.


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## Shelly (Sep 26, 2009)

Some people should not be allowed to breed.


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## chadk (Sep 26, 2009)

If you billed him, wouldn't that make him a client? (not a 'potential' client)


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## richalisoviejo (Sep 26, 2009)

chadk said:


> If you billed him, wouldn't that make him a client? (not a 'potential' client)



Hmm, no, a contractual obligation would make him a client. Nice try though.


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## chadk (Sep 26, 2009)

richalisoviejo said:


> chadk said:
> 
> 
> > If you billed him, wouldn't that make him a client? (not a 'potential' client)
> ...



Sure, if you say so 

Online dictionaries fail to mention anything about a contract - just the sharing of legal advice and exchange of money for services. As in the overbilling situation you described... 

Client: 
* a person who seeks the advice of a lawyer 
* someone who pays for goods or services 

Another source...

cliÃ‚Â·ent (klnt)
n.
1. The party for which professional services are rendered, as by an attorney.

And websters:

Main Entry: cliÃ‚Â·ent 
Pronunciation: \Ã‹Ë†klÃ„Â«-Ã‰â„¢nt\
Function: noun 
: a person who engages the professional advice or services of another <a lawyer's clients>


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## dmmj (Sep 26, 2009)

just because you did not like him did that justify billing him for an hour when you ony spent ten minutes wiith him? and people wonder why lawyers are so well liked( sarcasm)


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## Yvonne G (Sep 27, 2009)

dmmj said:


> just because you did not like him did that justify billing him for an hour when you ony spent ten minutes wiith him? and people wonder why lawyers are so well liked( sarcasm)



I don't think "like" had much to do with it. That's the way of the world. The phone company is the only place I know that will bill minutes. Most folks bill by the hour. And its rounded up.

Yvonne


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## katesgoey (Sep 27, 2009)

Mark: What I'm interested in knowing is since when can support be enforceable if the legal parental relationship no longer exists? Was he behind so he still owed for past support and wanted to get out of future support? Curious to know since I used to work at DA's office enforcing custody orders and am not familiar with caselaw to support continued future support once parental rights were terminated.


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## MissLaw (Sep 27, 2009)

dmmj said:


> just because you did not like him did that justify billing him for an hour when you ony spent ten minutes wiith him? and people wonder why lawyers are so well liked( sarcasm)


Lawyers get paid for their time. I suspect you do as well. If this man had come into my office looking for a legal loophole to get out of supporting his children I would have had him booted out as well.



katesgoey said:


> Mark: What I'm interested in knowing is since when can support be enforceable if the legal parental relationship no longer exists? Was he behind so he still owed for past support and wanted to get out of future support? Curious to know since I used to work at DA's office enforcing custody orders and am not familiar with caselaw to support continued future support once parental rights were terminated.



Sandy, MarcianoÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s home is right across the street from mine. With the party that went on over there last night until 5:00 AM this morning I doubt heÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll be up for a while. 

Some states will allow a parent to terminate their parental rights but they cannot terminate their responsibility unless another man is willing to adopt the children.


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## Candy (Sep 27, 2009)

I have to agree with Dmmj, just because you get angry at someones intention (whether right or wrong) that does not mean you're not professional yourself. And I know myself I have fought paying for time not used and won. I would like to know how that is legal to do that? I know you can round it off to 15 minutes, but how do you legally make it one hour? My father always taught me "two wrongs don't make a right". Because you terminated the relationship how do you charge for the extra 50 minutes. If the client would have walked out I could see it, but you said you're the one who escorted him out so how do you now get paid for this? Just because it's legal?????? Doesn't make it right, ethical or moral. And what's legal in open to interpretation and change.


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## chadk (Sep 27, 2009)

MissLaw said:


> Lawyers get paid for their time. I suspect you do as well. If this man had come into my office looking for a legal loophole to get out of supporting his children I would have had him booted out as well.





Rich... I mean MissLaw... For a lawyer, you don't seem to read to well (or comprehend at least...). Nobody had an issue with kicking the dude out. It was regarding the billing practice bragged about....


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## katesgoey (Sep 27, 2009)

MissLaw wrote: "Sandy, MarcianoÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s home is right across the street from mine. With the party that went on over there last night until 5:00 AM this morning I doubt heÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll be up for a while. "

Golly gee whiz, TMI - I could have waited until he responded...but thanks for the latter portion of your response.


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## richalisoviejo (Sep 27, 2009)

katesgoey said:


> Mark: What I'm interested in knowing is since when can support be enforceable if the legal parental relationship no longer exists? Was he behind so he still owed for past support and wanted to get out of future support? Curious to know since I used to work at DA's office enforcing custody orders and am not familiar with caselaw to support continued future support once parental rights were terminated.



Sandy he said he was up to date on his payments but wanted to stop them all together and have his parental rights terminated. If parental rights are legally terminated through a parental rights termination proceeding, then ALL rights and duties are terminated FOREVER. 

Laws in most states allow for complete termination of rights, however a father cannot relinquish his obligation to pay child support, even if he voluntarily relinquishes his parental rights unless the child is adopted by another person. The State isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t stupid. 

If the child is on public welfare or could possibly ever be on public welfare in the future (which is possible if the mother becomes ill or unemployed), the State will have to foot the bill for supporting the child. As a condition for receiving state aid, the mother must assign her right to collect child support on behalf of the child over to the State. The State simply does not provide loopholes for fathers to "relinquish their parental rights" in order for them to avoid their child support obligations. 

A parent is NOT ALLOWED to negotiate away a child's right to child support. That right belongs to the child. 

As for the billing? lol. That was addressed so eloquently by Yvonne. Dead beat parents make by blood boil.


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## Candy (Sep 27, 2009)

Excuse me, but you didn't answer the question and neither did Yvonne (no offense Yvonne). How can you bill a full hour to someone whom you had kicked out of your office after just 10 minutes? I know what the laws are already for child support you don't need to explain them. I tend to think that if you billed him and he didn't pay you and you took him to small claims court the judge would not not agree with " I was disgusted with him so I threw him out". I think you would need more to go on then that.


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## richalisoviejo (Sep 27, 2009)

Candy said:


> Excuse me, but you didn't answer the question and neither did Yvonne (no offense Yvonne). How can you bill a full hour to someone whom you had kicked out of your office after just 10 minutes? I know what the laws are already for child support you don't need to explain them.



There is a flat rate I charge for a consulation, weather it be ten minutes or an hour. I was answering SandyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s comment. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m happy you already know the child support laws but my reply wasnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t directed at you.


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## katesgoey (Sep 27, 2009)

richalisoviejo said:


> katesgoey said:
> 
> 
> > Mark: What I'm interested in knowing is since when can support be enforceable if the legal parental relationship no longer exists? Was he behind so he still owed for past support and wanted to get out of future support? Curious to know since I used to work at DA's office enforcing custody orders and am not familiar with caselaw to support continued future support once parental rights were terminated.
> ...



First, I know the state's not stupid (when it comes to this subject anyway). Second, it's been a long while since I snatched kids back from abducting parents and never worked in child support, but I specifically recall 3 cases where the returned child's father' s rights were terminated and the support portion of the order was nullified....that's why I asked. I believe the support statutes changed after my tenure and perhaps that explains it. BTW, I'm not supporting a right for either parent to "negotiate away" the child's right to support.


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## Candy (Sep 27, 2009)

richalisoviejo said:


> Candy said:
> 
> 
> > Excuse me, but you didn't answer the question and neither did Yvonne (no offense Yvonne). How can you bill a full hour to someone whom you had kicked out of your office after just 10 minutes? I know what the laws are already for child support you don't need to explain them.
> ...



All I'm saying is being the professional you should have given him his allowed time for his money that he spent. I know that you got mad at him (and now probably at me), but that doesn't mean that you can use your profession that way. That's why most people feel the way they do about your profession. I fully do understand you having the feelings that you had. I think if you would have written that you told the man "I do not agree with your ethics or you morals so I don't think I'll be taking your case" that I could have agreed with you, but not overcharging, sorry. And I didn't realize that we couldn't post unless it was directed at us specifically.


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## richalisoviejo (Sep 27, 2009)

Candy said:


> I didn't realize that we couldn't post unless it was directed at us specifically.



Not sure where that came from. I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t get mad at what anyone post on a message board. But when I see one parents intent on spite and making the other suffer with two small children in the middle I see something terrible wrong with that picture.


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## Candy (Sep 27, 2009)

richalisoviejo said:


> Candy said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't realize that we couldn't post unless it was directed at us specifically.
> ...



I apologize for the "directed thing". I had read it wrong. I do agree with you about the father. I myself had and have a great ex-husband when it came to supporting his children (financially speaking I mean), but I've also known of some pretty selfish ex-wives that will try to take their ex-husbands for everything they have. It's a hard issue and sometimes it's not pretty. We owe it to our children to behave as adults. Unfortunately we don't always do that. I always felt that if I loved this man enough to give birth to his children then (given the fact he hadn't beaten or abused me or my children) how can I hate him so much now that we're divorced and do I have the right to take his children away from him or make them think badly about him because we didn't work out? Anyway, enough said. Thanks for the debate.


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## chadk (Sep 27, 2009)

richalisoviejo said:


> There is a flat rate I charge for a consulation, weather it be ten minutes or an hour. I was answering SandyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s comment.



So you had an agreement regarding the billing. Sounds like a type of contractual agreement between you and your client . 

So then if there is a flat rate - such as $300 for up to one hour of legal advice... Or are you saying you charge $300 (or whatever) per hour (always rounded up) and that is part of the contract or billing agreement? Or did you not have an agreement and this schmuck just allows you to bill him without first agreeing on a price?


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## dmmj (Sep 27, 2009)

Now see I was under the assumption that if a parent's rights were terminated )Hasta La Vista Baby) then they would no longe rbe held acountable for child support? Now if those kids were adopted by another man thru marriage would he still have to pay for the kids? As to the rates if he had stayed for 61 minutes would he then be billed for 2 hours? Now don't get me wrong I think a man who tries to weasel out of his obligations is not a man at all, I was just curious to the rates and billing.


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## Stazz (Sep 28, 2009)

What a pig = I cannot understand how someone could ask what that guy was asking Rich, pretty ridiculous. Makes my blood boil too, and I'm not even near being in the legal industry ! And about the billing by the hour....I do understand billing a guy like that by the hour, even if he was just there for 10mins, but woud you do it to a nice little old ladt who came to the wrong type of lawyer? Does that make sense lol


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## richalisoviejo (Sep 28, 2009)

dmmj said:


> Now see I was under the assumption that if a parent's rights were terminated )Hasta La Vista Baby) then they would no longe rbe held acountable for child support? Now if those kids were adopted by another man thru marriage would he still have to pay for the kids? As to the rates if he had stayed for 61 minutes would he then be billed for 2 hours? Now don't get me wrong I think a man who tries to weasel out of his obligations is not a man at all, I was just curious to the rates and billing.



ThatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s correct. If he terminated his parental rights and his ExÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s new husband adopted those two children he would be off the hook. 

*9-9-220. Relinquishment and termination of parent and child relationship.*

(a) With the exception of the duty to pay child support, the rights of a parent with reference to a child, including parental right to control the child or to withhold consent to an adoption , may be relinquished and the relationship of parent and child terminated in or prior to an adoption proceeding as provided in this section. The duty of a parent to pay child support shall continue until an interlocutory decree of adoption is entered. 
(b) All rights of a parent with reference to a child, including the right to receive notice of a hearing on a petition for adoption, may be relinquished and the relationship of parent and child terminated by a writing, signed by an adult parent, subject to the court's approval. 

I couldnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t have billed him for two hours, I heard enough of his whining after ten minutes lol.


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## Crazy1 (Sep 28, 2009)

Now I know I heard (read) the words consultation. IÃ¢â‚¬Ëœve contacted an attorney and been told the consultation price would be, say, $150.00 /hour. If I meet with him/her and spend 20 min. or 59 min. I expect to pay the $150.00. I have met with an attorney that stated his consultation rate was $100.00/ hour and when the consultation only took a few minutes I was actually charged less. And I have contacted some that stated their consultation fee is $150.00 and stated no time limit. Consultation rates I believe are different than a rate of a Client and I would think would be different than the contractual agreement of a client.


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## katesgoey (Sep 28, 2009)

richalisoviejo said:


> dmmj said:
> 
> 
> > Now see I was under the assumption that if a parent's rights were terminated )Hasta La Vista Baby) then they would no longe rbe held acountable for child support? Now if those kids were adopted by another man thru marriage would he still have to pay for the kids? As to the rates if he had stayed for 61 minutes would he then be billed for 2 hours? Now don't get me wrong I think a man who tries to weasel out of his obligations is not a man at all, I was just curious to the rates and billing.
> ...



Are citing California Family Code or is that the Arkansas Code Section you are citing?? (That's the only one I could find in a quick search with those section numbers). I'm really getting confused now.

This is a quote from http://forum.freeadvice.com/marriag...-45/relinquish-parental-rights-ca-156094.html

You need to obtain a court order / judgment to relinquish your rights. A judgment terminating parental custody and control "terminates all parental rights and responsibilities with regard to the child"--including all further child support obligations. Thus, the parent whose rights are severed by the decree may no longer be reached for future child support. [Ca Fam Ã‚Â§ 7803; County of Ventura v. Gonzales (2001) 88 Cal.App.4th 1120, 1123-1124, 106 Cal.Rptr.2d 461, 464] 

Likewise, an order terminating parental rights (whether or not an adoption or other permanent placement plan has been adjudicated) completely severs the parent-child relationship, extinguishing the affected parent's child support obligation and divesting the court of authority to make a child support award against that parent. [Ca Fam Ã‚Â§ 7803; County of Ventura v. Gonzales (2001) 88 Cal.App.4th 1120, 1123-1124, 106 Cal.Rptr.2d 461, 464 (Ca Wel & Inst Ã‚Â§ 366.26 termination of father's parental rights); see also County of Orange v. Rosales (2002) 99 Cal.App.4th 1214, 1219-1220, 121 Cal.Rptr.2d 788, 791-791; Fraizer v. Velkura (2001) 91 Cal.App.4th 942, 946, 110 Cal.Rptr.2d 918, 921]

SO, it hasn't been long if and when the law changed to state that severed parental rights do not end support obligations, but i still can't find the "new" California statutory language....again, I'm just curious since I wonder if the statutory change you cite means a slew of adult children can go back and sue their terminated parent for back child support. ?.


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## katesgoey (Sep 28, 2009)

dmmj - FYI Other states may have that law, but - 

This is the answer to the relevant FAQ of the Orange County Superior Court of CA cite:

"If your parental rights are terminated, and you owe child support that was ordered before your rights were terminated, you are still required to pay the amount owed. Note that the court, if requested to do so, may only order a termination of parental rights if someone else is prepared to adopt the child. The court generally will not order a termination of your parental rights if that would leave the child with only one parent responsible for his or her care and support." 
http://www.occourts.org/directory/family/child-support.html. 

[Note that if the rights are terminated, only support owed BEFORE termination is still owed].

So unless and until I can find or am provided a California statute to support an argument otherwise, the support issue is whether or not the rights would be terminated in the first place. If they are in fact terminated, he would no longer owe support unless he was behind in past support (assuming he is in California). I'm not defending the parent here, just making sure the law is stated correctly for the situation. Okay, I'll be done with this, it was just really bugging me because I spent 4 years of my life with my head and heart in this stuff..... So many little kids being the hot potato....makes me sad.


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## terryo (Sep 28, 2009)

If a woman leaves the state with the child, is the husband still responsible for child support, or is that terminated since the ex left the state and took the child?


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## Jacqui (Sep 28, 2009)

terryo said:


> If a woman leaves the state with the child, is the husband still responsible for child support, or is that terminated since the ex left the state and took the child?


An ex is not required to remain living in the same state.


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## chadk (Sep 29, 2009)

Jacqui said:


> terryo said:
> 
> 
> > If a woman leaves the state with the child, is the husband still responsible for child support, or is that terminated since the ex left the state and took the child?
> ...



Depends on how the custody is set up... For example, if they share days of the week - leaving the state may violate the custody arrangement.


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## katesgoey (Sep 29, 2009)

terryo said:


> If a woman leaves the state with the child, is the husband still responsible for child support, or is that terminated since the ex left the state and took the child?



Unless the parental rights are terminated, the support order is in effect. In California, custody orders usually require the parent to seek a court order first or an agreement with the other parent if that parent wants to leave the state with the child(ren). The support order would be a separate issue and if the parent and child do leave the state there is a Uniform child support code that provides for interstate collection of child support.


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