# Collecting tortoises from the wild



## GBtortoises (Jan 13, 2010)

With the ongoing debate here and people being railed for asking about breeding Sulcata tortoises I am curious about opinions and perceptions of the still common practice of collecting thousands of tortoises from the wild each and every year to supply_our hobby_.

I realize that Sulcata's are everywhere nowadays. But if you take a look on Kingsnake and other sites you'll see that Redfoots are as common if not more so. Russian tortoises have become the Red-Eared Sliders of the tortoise side, especially now that we have pet chain mega stores everywhere.

Which leads me to these questions: Why is no one up in arms about adult Redfoots and other species still being collected? 

Or that thousands and thousands of young adult Russian tortoises are being collected and shipped here leaving a tremendous gap in their generations?

Why only the fixation on Sulcata?


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## Shelly (Jan 13, 2010)

You bring up an important issue. I STRONGLY oppose ANY wild animal being trapped to feed the pet industry.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 13, 2010)

I can only speak from personal experience. After red ear sliders, male sulcatas are the number one most turned in tortoise to me here at the rescue. Plus, sulcatas can no longer be collected in the wild, can they? I get maybe two Russians a year and other than the 5 red foots that came to me last year all from the same person, I never get redfoots. 

The only reason I don't like to see your average tortoise-keeper backyard breeding sulcatas is because those are usually the ones that end up in the rescues several years later.


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## dmmj (Jan 13, 2010)

I do not have a problem as long as people do it responsibly, now of course most people do not do it responsibly, so then of course I have a problem when they collect hundreds so a few can survive to make it into the pet trade. Without wild collecting none of us would have out torts since they all came from wild collecting, I just wish they would do it more (like I said) responsibly.


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## GBtortoises (Jan 14, 2010)

My point with Redfoots is that there are now many, many sources for captive born animals, yet there is still a constant flow of wild caught adults coming in all the time. 

Russians tortoises are up for "adoption" all over craigslist and can be seen in every PetsMart and Petco at any given time. Usually in less than ideal conditions.

I absolutely understand the plight of Sulcatas in captivity. But I also don't feel that tortoise people, especially people on this site should be jumping all over someone who breeds Sulcatas or asks about breeding Sulcatas simply because that person thinks it's wrong. You don't educate someone by immediately jumping down their throat, telling them that they are wrong and they have a bad idea. That either turns them away completely or makes them combative. And maybe, just maybe, everyone doesn't (and shouldn't) think alike.

As far as wild caught animals in general, yes it's true that _none of us[i/] would have what we have if not for animals being collected and imported. But, today so many species are being bred in captivity and all of them on a more frequent basis. That was not the case 30 years ago, 20 years ago or even 10 years ago. 
The demand was there for the animals regardless of where the supply came from. Today many captive borns have become available of several species and the list continues to grow. 

The argument can be made that wild caught adults lead to getting captive born babies quicker as opposed to raising a captive born animal to breeding age and size. But also realize that over the years thousands and thousands of those wild caught tortoises never lived long enough in captivity to breed again. At what point do we put aside our own impatience and greed and consider what we're doing to the animals in their natural environment? 

As much as I want to believe that large quantity collecting can be done responsibly, I don't think it will realistically ever happen. Generally speaking, the people that do the collecting are worlds away from us, not just geographically, but very often financially and socially too. The people collecting are trying to make a living and feed their families the best ways they know how. Then there's buyers, importers, wholesalers and in some cases dealers and petshops in the middle before the animals ever get to us. With all those middlemen you can be sure the collector is getting pennies for each animal, which just means he has to be less discriminate about what and how many he collects to make his money. I would be willing to bet that none of them in the entire process care about anything more than the dollar. To them it's like apples in a tree, pick them until the tree is bare and then move on to another tree._


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## TylerStewart (Jan 14, 2010)

GBtortoises said:


> I absolutely understand the plight of Sulcatas in captivity. But I also don't feel that tortoise people, especially people on this site should be jumping all over someone who breeds Sulcatas or asks about breeding Sulcatas simply because that person thinks it's wrong. You don't educate someone by immediately jumping down their throat, telling them that they are wrong and they have a bad idea. That either turns them away completely or makes them combative. And maybe, just maybe, everyone doesn't (and shouldn't) think alike.



This is such the common mindset of this forum... At least, the most outspoken 4 or 6 members of the forum. Don't worry that 20,000+ Russians per year are imported (haven't checked the numbers in a while), or who knows how many redfoots, but the fact that 1% of the sulcatas might end up in a rescue is reason enough to kill the week telling someone not to breed them. It was brought up a few times in the last sulcata threads, but the fact that sulcatas are available cheaply is a huge reduction on the demand for wild caught animals of any species. Someone looking for a low cost tortoise has really a few options: captive bred sulcata, wild caught Russian (many of which die), wild caught hingeback (most of which die), etc. If sulcatas were gone from the face of the earth, it would just be the next species in line being "the most common tortoise in rescues." 

Let me propose a new name for the forum:
"TortoiseForum.org - Ask questions, share answers, talk torts, just don't you dare breed sulcatas." 

I'll design a new banner.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 14, 2010)

GBtortoises said:


> Which leads me to these questions: Why is no one up in arms about adult Redfoots and other species still being collected?
> 
> Or that thousands and thousands of young adult Russian tortoises are being collected and shipped here leaving a tremendous gap in their generations?
> 
> Why only the fixation on Sulcata?



Probably because the Russians and Redfoots die before reaching the rescues and the sulcatas, being more hardy, don't.


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## -EJ (Jan 14, 2010)

Most of the above mentioned tortoises are being very successfully farmed.




GBtortoises said:


> With the ongoing debate here and people being railed for asking about breeding Sulcata tortoises I am curious about opinions and perceptions of the still common practice of collecting thousands of tortoises from the wild each and every year to supply_our hobby_.
> 
> I realize that Sulcata's are everywhere nowadays. But if you take a look on Kingsnake and other sites you'll see that Redfoots are as common if not more so. Russian tortoises have become the Red-Eared Sliders of the tortoise side, especially now that we have pet chain mega stores everywhere.
> 
> ...


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## chadk (Jan 14, 2010)

Here in WA, I rarely see Sulcatas. A little more than redfoots, but still, very few. 

But as noted above, all pet stores have Russians. And CL always has some RTs listed around here.

The local rescue I work with here only has RT's in foster care. Have not seen another tort other than RT. They have had a few boxies come through. I think they just refuse RES. Not sure though. They aslo work with a local guy who does tort and turtle rescue. I just checked his site and in their last newsletter, they had 1 sullie, 1 redfoot, 1 loe, and 3 russians looking for homes.


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## Madkins007 (Jan 14, 2010)

I would love to see a halt to imports of wild-caught pets while encouraging responsible, sustainable farming to replace collecting. Actually, I'd like to see this in foods as well.


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## dmmj (Jan 14, 2010)

but you could not have responsible animal farming without Wild collecting in the first place, when do you say enough wild collection and just let the private people deal with it?


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## Tom (Jan 15, 2010)

I was also very displeased by the response to the original post asking for help. Wasn't quite sure how to put it into words. It's my opinion that we should be encouraging responsibility through education, not brow-beating and dream-stomping. I understand the point of view of the rescue folks, but it seems like there ought to be a better way. The vast majority of the animal owning public I know does a great job of taking care of whatever species they own. It doesn't seem right to me to discourage captive breeding of a common, but wonderful, species because a very small percentage of people will not do the right thing.

Now, does this mean you guys aren't going to send me that half dozen females to put in with my males?! I've got plenty of room and food, I just can't take any males, since they'd fight with Scooter and Bert.


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## Anfi (Jan 15, 2010)

The situation with russian tortoises (Testudo horsfieldii) looks catastrophic. Actually these tortoises don't live in Russia at all but they do live in some former-USSR countries like Kazakhstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. Governments of these countries don't care about tortoises at all, looks like they just don't need tortoises but need money instead. So they are ready to sell all of their tortoises.
Just look at the official CITES quota (www.cites.org) for Testudo horsfieldii

2009 Tajikistan 17000 wild-taken 
2009 Uzbekistan 5000 eggs 
2009 Uzbekistan 29000 live 
2009 Uzbekistan 17000 live, ranched 

And this is just official data for 2009 year. 
Several years ago there were lots of adult and even old tortoises sold in every pet shop. But during the last years all I can see is sub-adults or juveniles. That means that there are no adults left in the wild!
I don't know what can actually stop the population decline now.
Local people in Kazakhstan etc. mostly (not all but mostly) don't care about tortoises as well: they collect tortoises to feed pigs and dogs or just crush tortoises for fun.
What's about Testudo horsfieldii in captivity they mostly die cause of unproper care or at least don't breed and don't produce any babies because people that buy them don't know anything about tortoise care. And at least 50% of keepers are children themselves.


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## GBtortoises (Jan 15, 2010)

I don't think collecting and importing tortoises from the wild will ever go away completely. I also think that smartly conducted collecting can add new bloodlines, geographic diversity and enable captive breeders to work with new subspecies and species. 

But I constantly question why certain species are still be collected in large numbers such as Russian and Redfoot tortoises. There are supposedly farms breeding Russian tortoises. I question how they can be financially feasible for these farmers to hatch, feed and care for thousands of tortoises long enough to raise them up to 4" SCL in order to legally ship them into the U.S. Even by forcing their growth to 4" it is going to take a couple of years at best. Add to this the care and maintenance of the adult breeding stock. All to sell the tortoises for $15-20 each wholesale to suppliers in the U.S.? 

I wonder if they are just collecting all the smaller tortoises they can find and raising them up to 4" to import.


I want to believe that they are truly being captive born on farms and I think one day they will be. But I don't think it's happening yet.

So far I think that "farm raised" is just the feel good term for "wild caught".


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## Anfi (Jan 15, 2010)

GBtortoises said:


> There are supposedly farms breeding Russian tortoises.


There are no farms breeding russian tortoises. Come on! 99% of tortoises are wild caught except a few breeders in US and Europe. There were some efforts to make a "farm" in Uzbekistan in 2001 but all they did were collecting eggs (from the wild) and raising juvenilles.


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## GBtortoises (Jan 15, 2010)

Anfi said:


> GBtortoises said:
> 
> 
> > There are supposedly farms breeding Russian tortoises.
> ...



I agree, that is why I used the term "supposedly"!

I think the "farms", which I have seen photos of, are simply holding and/or growing facilities for tortoises captured in the wild.


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## Anfi (Jan 15, 2010)

GBtortoises said:


> I agree, that is why I used the term "supposedly"!
> 
> I think the "farms", which I have seen photos of, are simply holding and/or growing facilities for tortoises captured in the wild.



Exactly!


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## TylerStewart (Jan 15, 2010)

Anfi said:


> Several years ago there were lots of adult and even old tortoises sold in every pet shop. But during the last years all I can see is sub-adults or juveniles. That means that there are no adults left in the wild!
> I don't know what can actually stop the population decline now.



Well, this is partly true, but the reason there's few adults imported now is because the freight is much higher on larger tortoises, so people here (importers) buy the ones that are big enough (4") to be brought in, but small enough that they can fit X amount into a given crate. If they're paying a fixed price per tortoise, and they sell them for a fixed price per tortoise, it makes sense to bring in the smallest possible ones to keep shipping costs down. Several years ago, they were imported at 8"+ size, but lately they're almost always between 4" and 5" long. It costs three times as much to import (ship) an 8" tortoise as it does a 4" tortoise. I tend to think this is a good thing, since once they are past 6" in the wild, I believe they are left alone to a degree. There were a handful in 2009 that were imported larger; I bought some of them that were almost 7" in length. It's just not common because of the freight cost.


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## GBtortoises (Jan 17, 2010)

The bottom line for shippers is that 4-5" tortoises are the ideal size (for them). They can fit more of those size animals in a specific size crate than they can 7-10" animals. More animals, more profit. 

Tyler-I understand your point on collecting 4-5" animals over larger adults in that it leaves fully mature animals in the wild to continue to re-populate. But I don't totally agree with it because I think in the future, 10, 20 years down the road there is going to be a serious generation gap due to all of the younger adults that are being collected now. Those full grown adults are obviously older too, which means many will be dying over the next couple of decades. Those that are 4-5" now are would have been there to take the places of the older ones as they die off. 

If collecting isn't going to be stopped, I would like to see a mix of ages and sizes being collected rather than concentrating on a specific size/age range. That way there would still be a mix of various sizes and ages still in the wild basically carrying on the same survival routine but probably with smaller numbers overall.

Ideally I would rather see stricter import quantity regulations put on species that are being over-collected for no reason other than that they're easily accessible. 

Most of the popular "mainstream" species are now being produced in enough numbers in captivity to sustain their demand thanks to breeders like yourself and others. I think people in this hobby, whether just getting started or experienced should be encouraged to first look to breeders to find the species that they want. The more captive born animals that are produced and owned, the less demand for wild caughts there will be.


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## -EJ (Jan 17, 2010)

I need to point out to the readers that while the Russian tortoises might have been taken out of the wild in past years USFW is trying real hard to curb this with following the rules to a stricter level.

Keep in mind that the main reason you see tortoises in the 4-5 inch range is not profit... although I'm sure the importer never realized this benefit... but because of the 4 inch rule. That is the smallest tortoise that is allowed into the US. Tortoises that size are captive raised on farms and that is the smallest they are allowed into the US. Our government is forcing the exporters to keep them until they are legal.

This is true with Redfoots, Egyptians, Hermanns, Marginateds... and would also be true for Leopards and Sulcatas if they were not banned from import.

Russian tortoises are also being produced but I don't know if they are being produced in the numbers the others are.


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## GBtortoises (Jan 17, 2010)

The reason that we don't see tortoises below 4" is because of the FDA law enacted in 1975. The reason that we see tortoises of many species as close to 4" without going under that mark is because many more can be fit into a shipping crate than if they were larger animals. Importers clearly realize the benefit of that. 

It's interesting that while there are supposedly Russian and other tortoises being raised on farms all those that are imported have all the "wear and tear" and ersion markings of a wild animal.


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## -EJ (Jan 17, 2010)

These farm have free range pens set up in similar habitat that you would find in their native range.

Have you gotten any of these farmed animals? Particularly the Eastern Hermanns and Marginateds?

The farmed RFs are kept under similar conditions.

On the Egyptians... I've only seen photos but they have been breeding them for well over 25 years and they are amazing.

I know for a fact that an adult is way more desirable than a 4 inch animal. A dealer would much rather sell a 10 inch Russian than 3 4inch animals and that dealer could easily get 3 times the price for the larger animal.



GBtortoises said:


> The reason that we don't see tortoises below 4" is because of the FDA law enacted in 1975. The reason that we see tortoises of many species as close to 4" without going under that mark is because many more can be fit into a shipping crate than if they were larger animals. Importers clearly realize the benefit of that.
> 
> It's interesting that while there are supposedly Russian and other tortoises being raised on farms all those that are imported have all the "wear and tear" and ersion markings of a wild animal.




So you haven't seen the incubators or the hatchling facilities?

There are a couple of farms in Slovenia that I know of two people that visited and took extensive series of photos.





GBtortoises said:


> Anfi said:
> 
> 
> > GBtortoises said:
> ...


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## GBtortoises (Jan 17, 2010)

So far the only supposedly "farmed" tortoises that I've seen have been pyramided and obviously raised as quickly as possible to get them up to 4". I don't think that method is doing the tortoises any favors. Of those pyramided ones many are still for sale, many months later. I'm guessing that is because most people find them unattractive. 

The question that I have with the "adult size being preferred" theory is that the bulk of Russians aren't being imported for breeders. They're being imported to be mega chain pet shop staples which is where most of them do end up. Try asking their reptile "experts" some care questions. By the time they get done telling me what to feed it and how to care for it I'm usually laughing so hard I have stomach pains! I never buy, I just like to taunt them. It's my deranged form of entertainment.

Yes, I've saw photos a few years back of holding facilities and pens where they're raising hundreds of tortoises. Did you ever wonder how and what they're feeding these thousands of tortoises? All supposedly in Slovenia. I wonder why just that country? The same place that "Slovenian" Hermann's came from a few years back. Which were found to be smuggled into that country from neighboring countries where they were illegal to collect. Maybe Slovenia has become the Switzerland of the tortoise exchange world.

If you have the photos saved please post them. I never kept any after I first saw them. I'm sure people would be interested.

While I did see the photos, I could not at the time find out if they were legitimate or who actually visited the farms. So if you have anything post it or send me an email. I'm always interested in gaining more information on the subject.

Hey just found the pics on www.ReptileForum.co.uk

Same pics I saw a couple of years ago. I question whether this is a facility where wild caught females a gathered to lay eggs or there is actual breeding going on.


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## -EJ (Jan 17, 2010)

One set was taken last year and one set the year before (those on RFUK).

They are not only breeding tortoises but lizards as well. It sounds and looks impressive.

You know of the farms in the Honduras? They are spitting out thousands of leopards... with nowhere to go but Europe... or so I hear.

I suspect you are talking about the Western Hermans that were reciently imported. While they were not as nice as some of the other stuff they are no worse than a 4 year old that was born and raised in the states. I've yet to see a captive raised Testudo of decent size for sale that is remarkable.



GBtortoises said:


> So far the only supposedly "farmed" tortoises that I've seen have been pyramided and obviously raised as quickly as possible to get them up to 4". I don't think that method is doing the tortoises any favors. Of those pyramided ones many are still for sale, many months later. I'm guessing that is because most people find them unattractive.
> 
> The question that I have with the "adult size being preferred" theory is that the bulk of Russians aren't being imported for breeders. They're being imported to be mega chain pet shop staples which is where most of them do end up. Try asking their reptile "experts" some care questions. By the time they get done telling me what to feed it and how to care for it I'm usually laughing so hard I have stomach pains! I never buy, I just like to taunt them. It's my deranged form of entertainment.
> 
> ...


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## GBtortoises (Jan 17, 2010)

-EJ said:


> One set was taken last year and one set the year before (those on RFUK).
> 
> They are not only breeding tortoises but lizards as well. It sounds and looks impressive.
> 
> ...





Yes, some of those that I'm talking about were the recent Westerns, along with Marginateds, Ibera and some Easterns and Dalmatians. They looked as pyramided, or worse than the recent Westerns. 

As far as them looking "no worse than 4 year olds born and raised in the states." I guess that all depends upon who is raising them. None of mine look at all like that and I know many others that don't either. But then I'm not trying to rush their growth to get them to 4". 

Bottom line for me is I'd like to believe that all these farms are real and will make a positive impact on wild caught populations. But so far it's the same half dozen photos, no details, no person that has seen it with their own eyes and no real proof that they are what they say they are.

I'd like to believe in Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster too but for the same reasons I can't.


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## -EJ (Jan 18, 2010)

... and how much do you sell 4+ inch Eastern Hermans, Marginateds for...

Again, I've spoken with people who have visited. It would seem that some people just don't want to believe one way or the other that it is possible.



GBtortoises said:


> As far as them looking "no worse than 4 year olds born and raised in the states." I guess that all depends upon who is raising them. None of mine look at all like that and I know many others that don't either. But then I'm not trying to rush their growth to get them to 4".
> 
> Bottom line for me is I'd like to believe that all these farms are real and will make a positive impact on wild caught populations. But so far it's the same half dozen photos, no details, no person that has seen it with their own eyes and no real proof that they are what they say they are.
> 
> I'd like to believe in Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster too but for the same reasons I can't.


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## GBtortoises (Jan 18, 2010)

-EJ said:


> ... and how much do you sell 4+ inch Eastern Hermans, Marginateds for...
> 
> Again, I've spoken with people who have visited. It would seem that some people just don't want to believe one way or the other that it is possible.
> 
> ...



I rarely ever have any tortoises for sale that reach 4". Almost all of mine are sold as hatchlings or yearlings. The ones I mentioned are those kept here for future breeding groups. 

Again, more photos, especially some that prove what is actually taking place, not just a holding facility and a photo of a Hermann's nesting, along with names, physical addresses and first hand accounts would make me a believer. 

A half dozen of the same photos that have been circulating for years with no first hand accounts or physical proof only makes me think I'm looking at another Loch Ness Monster.

I think we've beat this thread to death. So my last words are similiar to my first in this thread:

I do not agree with widespread mass collecting of species that are readily available in large numbers by means of captive breeding, whether on farms or by private breeders. Some, many, maybe all species will continue to be collected in the wild to some degree I'm sure. I believe that only two factors can control that degree. The first being the collector/importer side which is motivated by money only. The second being the members of the reptile community which is the root of the demand. 

I'm stepping of my soapbox now.


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## -EJ (Jan 18, 2010)

Your entitled to your opinion... but the readers need to be aware that it is an opinion.



GBtortoises said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> > ... and how much do you sell 4+ inch Eastern Hermans, Marginateds for...
> ...


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## GBtortoises (Jan 18, 2010)

Likewise.


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