# So, how smart?



## Pond_Lilly (Aug 20, 2016)

https://www.instagram.com/p/BJBwhXlBMTK/?taken-by=rescuemom77


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## Rue (Aug 20, 2016)

I am duly impressed.


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## Pond_Lilly (Aug 20, 2016)

Rue said:


> I am duly impressed.



Few studies indicated the ability to follow the gaze and learning by observation of others. In all these studies they call redfoots solitary, nonsocial tortoises, but I am really not sure. I have 6 redfoots and not only they hang together (even when enclosure allows being alone if they want to), but I see some personal preferences. For example, I recently introduced 2 new babies to the herd of 4 older ones, and one baby almost immediately formed a bond with one adult, they always together, and sleep in a hide together. Very curious...


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## wellington (Aug 20, 2016)

I love it. Now if s/he would also shut it when in, that would be perfect.


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## Pond_Lilly (Aug 20, 2016)

One more, definitely some sense of urgency there too 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BGpnW8dJvXt/?taken-by=rescuemom77


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## Rue (Aug 20, 2016)

I was also impressed with what I thought was altruism...only to find out that that particular behaviour is supposedly a show of aggression...

However...I remain undecided.

There's probably some highly complex tortoise psychology going on that we are just too dense to comprehend. ..lol.


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## Pond_Lilly (Aug 20, 2016)

Rue said:


> I was also impressed with what I thought was altruism...only to find out that that particular behaviour is supposedly a show of aggression...
> 
> However...I remain undecided.
> 
> There's probably some highly complex tortoise psychology going on that we are just too dense to comprehend. ..lol.



maybe aggression, but once the tort is "unflipped" everything is back to normal, no more aggression? But yeah, hard to judge about motives and stuff...


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 20, 2016)

They're smarter than we give them credit for.


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## MichaelaW (Aug 20, 2016)

I've noticed certain turtles in my collection have a tendency to hang out together.


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## Gillian M (Aug 21, 2016)

Pond_Lilly said:


> One more, definitely some sense of urgency there too
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BGpnW8dJvXt/?taken-by=rescuemom77


What a rescue that was. Lovely video. Thanks for posting,


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## Gillian M (Aug 21, 2016)

Pond_Lilly said:


> One more, definitely some sense of urgency there too
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BGpnW8dJvXt/?taken-by=rescuemom77


Incredible but true. A lovely video. 

I did not expect him/her to manage to get out, to be honest.

Torts are brighter than we think. 

Thanks for posting.


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## theguy67 (Aug 21, 2016)

I think many animals, including tortoises, are more complex, and intelligent, than we give them credit for. Although, I would caution not to give tortoises too much credit, but they certainly aren't dull creatures. Society seems to establish a hierarchy based on cuddly-ness, and reptiles often get lumped at the bottom with fish, and even bugs. On the other hand, people also tend to anthropomorphise pets or animals they care about deeply to give their connection and existence a purpose. I don't believe my tortoises are ever happy, or sad, just content or stressed. They couldn't care less if I never saw them again. My parents' yellow lab on the other hand demonstrates more need for social interactions with me. When I am home visiting family, she is around the house most of the time, otherwise she is usually at my grandparents during the day. 

All of my tortoises know where the doors are, even when they are closed. During the cold winter months, occasionally we have a warm week, and if it gets into the upper 70s, it becomes obvious that they want outside. My sulcata has done the same exact thing as the one opening the door. 




Pond_Lilly said:


> maybe aggression, but once the tort is "unflipped" everything is back to normal, no more aggression? But yeah, hard to judge about motives and stuff...



It very well could be aggression, but we don't have enough video to conclude "everything is back to normal" at the end. 



MichaelaW said:


> I've noticed certain turtles in my collection have a tendency to hang out together.



I've noticed this too with my group of 5 red foots, but we have to ask ourselves "why are they hanging out?". When I see my group "hanging out" its usually either in their burrows, in the connected "inside building" of the pen, or eating food. To me all these scenarios have something in common. They all contain important resources that are vital to the tortoises' health. The burrow and indoor area provide a cooler climate to escape the heat of the summer, and well food is food. Also, our enclosures are usually kinda small, so odds of them bumping into each other, or using the same space is increased. 

I will admit I have read accounts of such social behavior in the wild such as sharing burrows, or just being with in the same proximity, but it may vary between species and habitats as well.


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## Pond_Lilly (Aug 21, 2016)

> I don't believe my tortoises are ever happy, or sad, just content or stressed. They couldn't care less if I never saw them again. My parents' yellow lab on the other hand demonstrates more need for social interactions with me. When I am home visiting family, she is around the house most of the time, otherwise she is usually at my grandparents during the day.



Well, tortoises definitely are not dogs, but why should they be? We occupy different ecological niches, have different evolutionary pressures we respond to, deal with our environment differently. Tortoise can probably tell the difference between 1000s different types and subtypes of soil, probably remembers what bugs not to eat, and, as research shows, could learn by observation. They might do and know even more, we just have not figured out the ways to test it. 



> It very well could be aggression, but we don't have enough video to conclude "everything is back to normal" at the end.



yes, it is a bit short, but still there is no charging right after another tort is "unflipped", they kind of move in a same direction. From my personal experiences, when mine torts flip, no one is helping, others just could not care less 



> but we have to ask ourselves "why are they hanging out?".



I understand this argument and it is a valid one as they could simply end up in the same environment because it is a good spot or a good hide. But for my "pair", they kind of hang together in many places. In fact, when I bring them in for the night, 9 in 10 times I will find them together in any area of the enclosure they end up in.


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## dmmj (Aug 21, 2016)

interesting but I don't know whethet it can be a sign of intelligence or not. I did notice the door was open a little bit I wonder how it would have fared had the door had been closed all the way. Of course once it unlocks the door then I'll be impressed.


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## Gillian M (Aug 21, 2016)

Pond_Lilly said:


> maybe aggression, but once the tort is "unflipped" everything is back to normal, no more aggression? But yeah, hard to judge about motives and stuff...


Strange and at the same time interesting.

Some things, I believe, cannot be explained. Know what I mean?


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## MichaelaW (Aug 21, 2016)

Two of my Manouria have a tendency to travel the enclosure together.


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