# baby torts are WAY WAY WAY more carnivorous than we'd like to think.



## Balboa (Nov 4, 2010)

SO here's my thinking, and sorry if its been covered ad naseum.
We all know we've been doing it wrong for years. We take this baby tort and give it an environment and diet similiar to how we observe adults of its species to live and then wonder why it grows deformed and unhealthy.

We've all realized we had the environment wrong, baby torts live in an entirely different micro-environment from adults. In moist burrows, under logs etc.. Tom and Terry (and many others) have shown that by maintaining moist conditions AND high temps pyramiding can be eliminated. We've all seen the austrian study that indicates diet plays almost no roll in pyramiding (still likely cause or role player for MBD).

If we take this realization a step farther and consider diet available where the babies live, there isn't much leafy green plant matter available. That grows out in the open, under the hot drying sun, in full view of predators. What is available? Ever looked under a log? Loads and loads of bugs. Maybe some mushrooms and roots. Deep in those burrows, baby rodents, maybe other reptile egg nests. Babies can't bask for D3, they'd get eaten, so where do they source D3? Other animals.

A high protein diet has loads of energy and amino acids for rapid GROWTH and nervous system developement, to get them big and out in the open where the "healthier" eats are. By staying hydrated in humid environments they can likely deal with the rich foods they're eating, they just can't handle it when baked and dehydrated, trying desperately under that heat lamp to get some D3 that's lacking in their diet.

We'd all love to picture our babies living in bountiful, sunny fields of luscious leafy greens contentedly grazing away as their natural place. The harsh reality is, that's not natural. The ugly truth is likely that our babies are killing machines with blood dripping from their jaws in dark nasty places.

That's not to say that lots of leafy greens and sunshine is unhealthy for our babie torts, just not natural and not what they are programmed to accept. It also requires much greater effort to ensure proper nutrition as opposed to a natural diet.

Someone really should just take the time to do some darn studies


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## terryo (Nov 4, 2010)

This is very interesting.
What you are saying is very true about box turtles that come from a forest type enviorament, but I really know nothing about tortoises.


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## DeanS (Nov 4, 2010)

It makes sense...babies need to stay underground so they don't end up on someone's menu. Burrows aren't exclusive and if they come across some pinkies, bugs, slugs...you name it...it's fair game!


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## Az tortoise compound (Nov 4, 2010)

I volunteer to go and study them in their natural environment. I'll dig in through burrows with a small camera and report directly back to TFO.
Now, all you guys need to do is fund the study! I will be waiting with my bags packed. I accept Paypal.
Looking forward to Africa,


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## J. Ellis (Nov 4, 2010)

Playing the Devil's Advocate (my favorite role!) 

While some tortoises may be more capable of finding meat-meals in their natural environment (I'm thinking along the lines of forest dwelling species) what about the ones living in the deserts? This is also assuming that they have the speed and coordination to eat these bugs. Heck, I've seen mine miss a piece of opuntia 5-10 times. Now compared to a gecko or a lizard of similar environment I honestly think that they would be hardpressed to catch and eat any bug... Little baby mice/rats/birds, now that's another story.


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## Balboa (Nov 4, 2010)

Az tortoise compound said:


> I volunteer to go and study them in their natural environment. I'll dig in through burrows with a small camera and report directly back to TFO.
> Now, all you guys need to do is fund the study! I will be waiting with my bags packed. I accept Paypal.
> Looking forward to Africa,



LOL wouldn't we all love to do that study. To be honest, I'm astonished that we know so little about the natural life of baby torts. I'd think some scientist somewhere at sometime MUST have tried, yet I find nothing on research.

*I realized I should also add a little caveat. I'm NOT proposing that someone should all of a sudden start feeding their baby sully massive quantities of worms or something. I am saying that a controlled study should be done by people qualified to do so. I'd hate to see someone harm their little tort, as I'm sure results could be disastrous without proper precautions.*



randomellis said:


> Playing the Devil's Advocate (my favorite role!)
> 
> While some tortoises may be more capable of finding meat-meals in their natural environment (I'm thinking along the lines of forest dwelling species) what about the ones living in the deserts? This is also assuming that they have the speed and coordination to eat these bugs. Heck, I've seen mine miss a piece of opuntia 5-10 times. Now compared to a gecko or a lizard of similar environment I honestly think that they would be hardpressed to catch and eat any bug... Little baby mice/rats/birds, now that's another story.



yup, the devils advocate is appreciated!

Even in the desert, or rather especially in the desert, baby torts live in the ground.

As to speed, I've thought about the same thing, and yes for adults out in the open, most prey is far too fast for torts, so they give up on trying, and grass is plentiful and doesn't run away. Bugs and creepy crawlies in dark places are a little different. there tends to be nowhere to run to for one thing, and most of them don't bother. If you flip a log at night, most of the critters don't scurry away. You can reach right down and pick them up. I think they rely more on massive scale reproduction than avoidance as a survival mechanism.

In a burrow a tort is an ideal apex predator. They're heavily armored to fend off the attacks from any protective mothers and most can dig after fleeing prey.


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## J. Ellis (Nov 4, 2010)

They may be heavily armored but even if I go into a warzone in a M-1 Abrams Tank, without any ammo I'm still in trouble! That still doesn't touch upon the subject of aim. Maybe if they stumbled across a rat/moujse nest with sleeping babies, sure I could see them trying to bite on of them.. but considering the size of some of the smaller tortoises wouldn't an average size rat/mouse baby be too much of a mouthful?


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## Balboa (Nov 4, 2010)

hmmm
admittedly it may be different for baby sullys, but I have watched my Rocky stalk prey, and yes she's a half grown recognized predator species, but there's nothing wrong with her speed or aim. She holds totally still, head retracted, and watches for a minute, then with amazing speed her head shoots out and nabs the bug. A blink of an eye, literally.

maybe they have trouble eating opuntia because it doesn't behave like food should. It doesn't try to get away. 

as to no ammo and baby rodents being to big, from what iv'e seen tortoise jaws and claws tear through most things quite well. Not a pretty picture, but plausible.


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## J. Ellis (Nov 4, 2010)

I agree that bugs and meat-meals of _opportunity_ are plausible, but I just can't see some of the tortoises I've owned being a skilled enough hunter. 

But then again -- cows have been known to eat chickens.


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## DeanS (Nov 4, 2010)

Az tortoise compound said:


> I volunteer to go and study them in their natural environment. I'll dig in through burrows with a small camera and report directly back to TFO.
> Now, all you guys need to do is fund the study! I will be waiting with my bags packed. I accept Paypal.
> Looking forward to Africa,



...and Mick will need an assistant...so I'll volunteer!


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## Balboa (Nov 4, 2010)

Hmmmm maybe we could get some grants. Get Zoo-Med to bankroll this.


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## DeanS (Nov 4, 2010)

Balboa said:


> Hmmmm maybe we could get some grants. Get Zoo-Med to bankroll this.



Yeah! Then grassland tortoise diet will contain rodent and insect by-products


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## Tom (Nov 4, 2010)

I've been considering this for a long time. Even talked to several people about it. Had a conversation last night with a member who was impressed with how much his torts LOVED mushrooms. I've seen two accounts of tortoises actually hunting. One was a galapagos that would stand tall in a sunny spot at the water's edge and wait for little birdies to land under him for some shade and cover while they drank. Then, SPLAT, he'd suddenly drop down on them, back up, eat his kill, then re-assume the position and wait for more victims. The other is a sulcata in Ojai. The story was published in the Tortuga Gazette. He would wait all day by a gopher mound and sit totally motionless. When the little gopher stuck his head up, WHAM!, a bloody snack.

As for being slow or having bad aim, box turtles do just fine eating lots of bugs and my sulcata babies are just as fast and mobile as them. Plus a lot of those kind of bugs aren't all that fast. Isopods, millipedes, pincher bugs, snails and slugs, etc...

In a conversation with Richard Fife, he told me that he thought that due to the fear associated with protein causing pyramiding, that most tortoise diets are lacking in protein. This is one of his reasons for regularly using Mazuri.

Maybe I should do an experiment with some protein in a sulcata diet with my next batch of babies.

One thing I do know for sure is that NOBODY knows the answers to these questions. The lives of wild hatchlings are almost a complete mystery.


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## Madkins007 (Nov 4, 2010)

I like this thread!

Box turtles behave EXACTLY like this, and so do sliders, etc.- almost completely carnivorous as young'uns, shifting to a more herbivorous diet as they grow.

Baby Copperhead snakes have a brightly colored tail that they use to entice bugs in as a meal, and Box and Wood Turtles 'drum' for worms. Maybe baby torts do something similar? (I admit I have no idea what they would be doing, but I would bet some something they do has the potential to attract bugs.

Another point is that many reptiles, including our tortoises, grow in what they call a sigmoid growth curve- slow for a bit, then fast until they hit sexual maturity, then slowing. Meat is what drives a lot of species in the faster portion of the curve, and some breeders have been known for years to offer protein-heavy meals to speed grow their torts to maturity.

How about vitamin D? While not heavy in all forms of meat, it is found in organ meats and such, and vitamin D2 is found in mushrooms. Babies hide- maybe one reason they can hide and still use calcium is the D in their prey.

I know my guys LOVE meat when it is offered, but they are Red-foots and can handle large amounts of the stuff. It would be interesting to know how well the digestive systems of baby grassland species fare.

Well, dang it, I'm off to get my guys some worms!


(PS- have you ever thought about the logistical difficulties of tracking baby tortoises? Just FINDING them is hard enough, and you cannot really put a big transmitter on one. Then, just tracking this one cluster would be helpful, but you really need to track a dozen or more at this site, and another dozen here several miles away, and repeat for a different species in a different ecosystem a few times to really get useful info.

Having said all that- I bet some of this data exists for Desert Tortoises- one of the most researched wild species on Earth.)


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## Greg Knoell (Nov 4, 2010)

Another great thread, and very thought provoking. I used to work at a reptile pet store and we had a 8 inch sulcata come in, we kept him in a 6 foot long stock tank. One day a live adult feeder mouse fell into his stock tank and a few seconds later...CHOMP...no hesitation what-so-ever, the sulcata pretty much ate the mouse in one piece with four or five bites only a few seconds after it fell in. I believe that tortoises are opportunistic predators at the very least. 

I also believe that high-nutrient protien-rich foods like fresh alfalfa are FANTASTIC food items for tortoises.


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## DeanS (Nov 4, 2010)

Tom said:


> I've been considering this for a long time. Even talked to several people about it. Had a conversation last night with a member who was impressed with how much his torts LOVED mushrooms. I've seen two accounts of tortoises actually hunting. One was a galapagos that would stand tall in a sunny spot at the water's edge and wait for little birdies to land under him for some shade and cover while they drank. Then, SPLAT, he'd suddenly drop down on them, back up, eat his kill, then re-assume the position and wait for more victims. The other is a sulcata in Ojai. The story was published in the Tortuga Gazette. He would wait all day by a gopher mound and sit totally motionless. When the little gopher stuck his head up, WHAM!, a bloody snack.
> 
> As for being slow or having bad aim, box turtles do just fine eating lots of bugs and my sulcata babies are just as fast and mobile as them. Plus a lot of those kind of bugs aren't all that fast. Isopods, millipedes, pincher bugs, snails and slugs, etc...
> 
> ...



I know it seems like I was joking, but I am seriously considering adding pinkies to the yearling's diet...and I'm curious what Aladar would do with a medium-sized rodent or two.


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## Az tortoise compound (Nov 4, 2010)

Like everything else in nature, it's all about balance. It would make sense that they would eat a grub or two if they came across it.
Dean,
Not the worst idea I have heard, but I have no desire to watch my hatchling sullies rip apart a pinky. You will have to let me know how that goes.

......now I think about it, maybe I can supplement Perseus' diet with a stray cat here and there....sweet!


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## DeanS (Nov 4, 2010)

Az tortoise compound said:


> Like everything else in nature, it's all about balance. It would make sense that they would eat a grub or two if they came across it.
> Dean,
> Not the worst idea I have heard, but I have no desire to watch my hatchling sullies rip apart a pinky. You will have to let me know how that goes.
> 
> ......now I think about it, maybe I can supplement Perseus' diet with a stray cat here and there....sweet!



Perseus might need two!


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## Maggie Cummings (Nov 4, 2010)

When I lived in Calif I head started Gopherus agssizii for the rescue. One day I was sitting in the sun with a clutch of 4 or 5 month old babies. I was just watching them walk around and graze when all the sudden one of them froze, head out and up, eyes bright and alert and then he took off like a shot and grabbed a bluebelly lizard off the wall. The lizard was bigger than the hatchling but I'm damned if the hatchling didn't eat the whole thing! I say they eat meat when they can...


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## onarock (Nov 4, 2010)

Just a thought, but maybe all these thousands of tortoises that we all have been rasing over the years really only want a burger.


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## Edna (Nov 4, 2010)

I don't mind capturing the next few worms I see and adding them to the leopards' enclosure, just for the sake of science. Does anyone want to ship me some pill bugs? I've never seen them here.


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## Livingstone (Nov 4, 2010)

So whos going to start a supplementing cat/dog food to youngsters? Seriously I dont doubt that a young tortoise could benefit from the protein of bugs and even small mammals. In fact, I was on you tube trying to find the video of the galap tortoise that would wait by the waters edge for birds to come sit under it, then squash them and eat them. There are even a few videos of turtles in brazil eating pidgeons that got too close. Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6SpH3ysbJA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8rU-bLYM7Y


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## Kenny (Nov 4, 2010)

Livingstone said:


> So whos going to start a supplementing cat/dog food to youngsters? Seriously I dont doubt that a young tortoise could benefit from the protein of bugs and even small mammals. In fact, I was on you tube trying to find the video of the galap tortoise that would wait by the waters edge for birds to come sit under it, then squash them and eat them. There are even a few videos of turtles in brazil eating pidgeons that got too close. Check it out.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6SpH3ysbJA
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8rU-bLYM7Y



That second Vid is amazing, reminds me of a Croc attack lol


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## Kristina (Nov 4, 2010)

I want to add a word of caution - yes, all this makes sense, but until there is more info, please don't everyone start feeding cat and dog food. A few insects here and there are probably fine, and even a pinky occasionally for adult tortoises, but cat and dog food I think is taking it too far. 

Just because we now believe that protein does not contribute to pyramiding, does NOT mean that too much can't cause other health issues. There just isn't enough information. YET. 

I have maintained for years that tortoises are opportunistic eaters. We insist on variety, and all these vitamins, and no fruit and yadda yadda... But the tort doesn't see it that way. The tortoise is gonna sit under the tree and eat figs until they stop falling. The tortoise is going to munch on that particular weed until there isn't any more - and then go find something else. Where food sources are scarce, a tortoise is going to munch on anything that will offer nutrition. That is just how nature works. Even carnivores will eat vegetation if they are hungry enough or if their bodies need a certain something. They can't thrive on it indefinitely, but they will eat it.

As I pointed out before, chelonians have been evolving for 23 million years. At 3 million years old, we are just babies, and need to catch up with the program


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## Balboa (Nov 4, 2010)

Yep, Kristina's right, I'd hate to see someone go whole hog on this. 

I think I can see Tom doing a nice controlled experiment though. 

My gut's telling me this is the last puzzle piece to raising healthy beautiful tortoises.

More mushrooms, more bugs, healthy babies.

never seen a pillbug Tortyqueen? wow ... I can't flip a rock without finding some.


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## Kristina (Nov 4, 2010)

Interesting fact - Pillbugs, aka rolly pollies, sowbugs, or wood lice, are not native to the U.S. They came over from Europe on lumber shipments, and quickly populated almost the entire continent. They also are not "bugs" at all. They are crustaceans. They also happen to be very beneficial to the soil, and are a great addition to set ups with bioactive substrate and tarantula cages, etc.


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## Edna (Nov 4, 2010)

Balboa said:


> never seen a pillbug Tortyqueen? wow ... I can't flip a rock without finding some.



Ahh.... I didn't say I've never seen one, just that I haven't seen them where I live now (in Wyoming). I spent 17 years in Kansas and was well aquainted with pill bugs. So, you can send me some of your extras.


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## onarock (Nov 4, 2010)

Ah yes, the tortoiseforum, introducing invasive species the world over. ha ha. Try sending me some live bugs here in Hawaii, we will both end up in JAIL!!


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## Neal (Nov 4, 2010)

As it relates to protein, along with possibly eating meat in the wild, what about eating animal feces? Maybe I'm wrong, but wouldn't something like lion poop be full of protein? My tortoises have free run of the backyard where they share with our dogs when they go outside. I try my best to clean up after the dogs poop, but sometimes I'm not home or not quick enough and the tortoises will eat it right up.


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## Balboa (Nov 4, 2010)

Neal Butler said:


> As it relates to protein, along with possibly eating meat in the wild, what about eating animal feces? Maybe I'm wrong, but wouldn't something like lion poop be full of protein? My tortoises have free run of the backyard where they share with our dogs when they go outside. I try my best to clean up after the dogs poop, but sometimes I'm not home or not quick enough and the tortoises will eat it right up.



oh no, not the poop topic, that one is covered, yep they eat poop, most believe that has to do with replenishing the active digestive cultures in their guts or whatever, and Zoo-Med already includes that one. LOL not poop per se, but live cultures.

back to them being killers!


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## chairman (Nov 4, 2010)

The argument suggesting that small tortoises are opportunistic hunters does sound good... but wouldn't it make equally as much sense to suggest that the tortoises might be eating the roots/tubers they find in their burrows instead? I know, I know, picturing the little guys chomping on those amazing root systems that arid plants have isn't as neat as the hunter image, but I think that roots make much more sense as a dietary choice than live prey for most grassland tortoise species.  I'm not saying that hunting isn't possible, but I don't think its probable (except in forest species).


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## Tom (Nov 4, 2010)

onarock said:


> Ah yes, the tortoiseforum, introducing invasive species the world over. ha ha. Try sending me some live bugs here in Hawaii, we will both end up in JAIL!!



I've got 16 species of roaches. How many do you want? Those wouldn't be a problem there, would they? You've got lots of Jackson's chameleons to eat them up if any get out, right?

Thanks to Balboa for a great thread.

I could do a little experiment with some roaches tomorrow. You know, in the name of science. Not for fun or anything.

One detail here is that insects don't have any D3 in them. Well, at least the captive raised ones don't. Anybody know about the wild ones?


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## Balboa (Nov 5, 2010)

Tom said:


> Thanks to Balboa for a great thread.
> 
> I could do a little experiment with some roaches tomorrow. You know, in the name of science. Not for fun or anything.
> 
> One detail here is that insects don't have any D3 in them. Well, at least the captive raised ones don't. Anybody know about the wild ones?



I had no idea that it would turn out this well, I really expected more resistance LOL.

According to this page I got to via Mark's website there actually is D3 in insects. How much that is I have no clue.

TerryK makes a big deal out of not giving his baby redfoots D3 powder and uvb lights. They get all they need from a little weekly cat chow. *shrug*

As to eating roots vs bugs, who knows, but the bugs have more nutrition and are less work.

I should also point out that I'm NOT suggesting they are opportunistic carnivores, that is well known.... I'm suggesting they are PRIMARILY Carnivorous 

small reptiles are almost always insectivores, there's a reason for this. "Bugs is good food" and readily available in the places small reptiles live. Baby tortoises are small reptiles.


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## Greg Knoell (Nov 5, 2010)

That must have been fantastic to see...I've been on desert tortoise surveys with AZ game and fish and you will find these animals living in a small home range for decades growing very little in some of the most desolate conditions. Makes a lot of sense that G.agssizii in the wild would take an opportunity like that. Such an event could provide a strong short term boost of nutrition for a very vulnerable animal living in energy deprived habitats. Kind of like a super natural energy supplement. I know we see WAY more lizards out on those surveys than tortoises so there's enough of them out there to eat.

Events like this probably are still very rare I imagine, but personally I wouldn't be surprised if adult desert tortoises eat 3-4 lizards a year...who knows for sure though.




maggie3fan said:


> When I lived in Calif I head started Gopherus agssizii for the rescue. One day I was sitting in the sun with a clutch of 4 or 5 month old babies. I was just watching them walk around and graze when all the sudden one of them froze, head out and up, eyes bright and alert and then he took off like a shot and grabbed a bluebelly lizard off the wall. The lizard was bigger than the hatchling but I'm damned if the hatchling didn't eat the whole thing! I say they eat meat when they can...


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## Livingstone (Nov 5, 2010)

This has been a very interesting thread. Who is going to be the first to try this out. If anybody does can this be stickied in the food and diet forum, mods?

Im thinking about trying to mix in 1 lump of dog food, once a month in with livingstones mazuri, the consistency would be the same and it would be very diluted amongst the mazuri. Sounds like a safe starting point. Any opinions?


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## DeanS (Nov 5, 2010)

Livingstone said:


> This has been a very interesting thread. Who is going to be the first to try this out. If anybody does can this be stickied in the food and diet forum, mods?
> 
> Im thinking about trying to mix in 1 lump of dog food, once a month in with livingstones mazuri, the consistency would be the same and it would be very diluted amongst the mazuri. Sounds like a safe starting point. Any opinions?



How about mixing mazuri/grassland/roaches/pinkies together...that would be a GREAT layer for my lasagne


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## J. Ellis (Nov 5, 2010)

I think that the only way to really find out is to try it. No disrespect to Tom, as he should know how much I admire the work, research, and time that he has put into his theory(ies), but anyone can experiment to see what does and doesn't work. If you have some baby tortoises, throw in a few bugs and see what happens. The worst that could happen is they ignore them and you have to take them out..

*Note: By "anyone" I mean _anyone that has a more-than-basic concept and understanding of the needs and requirements of keeping and caring for the animal._

While I'm not playing devils advocate; I do have to agree that meat-meals seem to be more readily available and would make more sense.


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## Madkins007 (Nov 5, 2010)

Neal Butler said:


> As it relates to protein, along with possibly eating meat in the wild, what about eating animal feces? Maybe I'm wrong, but wouldn't something like lion poop be full of protein? My tortoises have free run of the backyard where they share with our dogs when they go outside. I try my best to clean up after the dogs poop, but sometimes I'm not home or not quick enough and the tortoises will eat it right up.



Not a lot of vertebrates like to eat carnivore poop, and a lot of dogs eat bad things or take meds that show up in the poop. I would not worry about them eating wild animal poop much, but dog and cat poop worries me.



chairman said:


> The argument suggesting that small tortoises are opportunistic hunters does sound good... but wouldn't it make equally as much sense to suggest that the tortoises might be eating the roots/tubers they find in their burrows instead? I know, I know, picturing the little guys chomping on those amazing root systems that arid plants have isn't as neat as the hunter image, but I think that roots make much more sense as a dietary choice than live prey for most grassland tortoise species. I'm not saying that hunting isn't possible, but I don't think its probable (except in forest species).



Except that most roots are not loaded with the sorts of nutrients that help a lot- which is why they play such a small role in the adult diet. The amount of root they would need to eat probably exceeds their stomach volume.

Another point is that some species of tortoise do not burrow, so would not be digging to maximize root choices.


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## Livingstone (Nov 6, 2010)

J. Ellis said:


> *Note: By "anyone" I mean _anyone that has a more-than-basic concept and understanding of the needs and requirements of keeping and caring for the animal._


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## Terry Allan Hall (Nov 7, 2010)

kyryah said:


> Interesting fact - Pillbugs, aka rolly pollies, sowbugs, or wood lice, are not native to the U.S. They came over from Europe on lumber shipments, and quickly populated almost the entire continent. They also are not "bugs" at all. They are crustaceans. They also happen to be very beneficial to the soil, and are a great addition to set ups with bioactive substrate and tarantula cages, etc.



Interesting...never knew they weren't native to North America.

I've seen 'em as far north as Juneau, Alaska and as far south as Quito, Ecuador, and assumed they'd always been in the Americas.


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## chairman (Nov 7, 2010)

The people that I got my 4.5" sulcata from raised I from a hatchling in a 20 long with repti-bark substrate... and a mealworm colony. I do not know why or when the mealworms were introduced to the tank, but there were a couple dozen of them in there in all stages of development. The sulcata showed absolutely no interest in them. The sulcata did, however, show an incredible amount of interest in greens. An anecdote is not data, but the tortoise I ended up with did not like to eat mealworms, mealworm beetles, or mealworm pupae. Perhaps other critters would be more palatable.

Mark, I am surprised to hear that the roots of plants that grow in arid regions aren't nutritious. I thought I had heard or read that desert plants stored the vast majority of their water and nutrients in their root systems.

I'm not opposed to the idea that young tortoises may be more omnivorous than we think, but I think there's a lot to explore on the topic. But in general, if you take an animal that is supposed to be omnivorous and try to make it a vegetarian, the animal's health suffers unless dramatic changes are made from the natural diet to supplant all that is lost by not eating meat. As far as I can tell, hatchlings that are kept hydrated and at the appropriate temperate generally do not have health or development issues when fed vegetarian diets. Am I wrong in that assessment?


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## Madkins007 (Nov 7, 2010)

chairman said:


> ...
> Mark, I am surprised to hear that the roots of plants that grow in arid regions aren't nutritious. I thought I had heard or read that desert plants stored the vast majority of their water and nutrients in their root systems.
> ...



As a guy with Red-foots, I don't automatically go to arid climate info. I did not notice that your comment was meant for arid torts- sorry! Nonetheless, the low-nutrient idea would apply to grasslands and forests.


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## Balboa (Nov 7, 2010)

Really, its just a crackpot theory that makes a lot of sense, but a long ways from being proven/disproven, and may not apply to all torts. Unfortunatly, I'd say mealworms are a bad example, as my redfoots won't touch them, and they really do love bugs LOL.

I think the idea of lifestages as it relates to this theory is important. It truly is BABY torts that I'm suspecting of being highly carnivorous, with a transition, either sudden or gradual transition to a herbivorous lifestyle as adults. (probably coinciding with the transition to "living in the open". Baby torts, especially omnivourous types like redfoots, seem to have a really tough go at it in captivity. Could it be that we aren't offering them what their instincts are driving them for? My experience is limited, but even now that she's obviously feeling better, 4 inch Adrienne is a very different animal from 6 inch Rocky, and this makes sense. As I understand it 6 inches is when a redfoot starts walking more in the open. They become far more gregarious and curious, less afraid of the light, and likely, more interested in non mobile food.


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## Madkins007 (Nov 8, 2010)

Dang it. Now I have this vision of a hatchling habitat that would be like a 'ant farm' for tortoises, designed to encourage natural behaviors and free-feeding! 

It would be several layers in a big tub or aquarium- pebbles for drainage, sandy soils, 'black compost', leaf litter, and leaves with several burrows molded into the soil at shallow angles, just big enough for a baby tortoise to wiggle into. Plant some grazing plants on one end so the roots help hold everything together and the leaves shade the soil and tortoises. Include some nice flat bark that is decomposing on the back for the bugs and additional tortoise hides. Toss in some live moss for the cooler/forest species. I might even think about making a lot of it very sloped, like a hillside.

Heavily 'seed' the habitat with several different species of worms, woodlice, slugs, bugs and other invertebrates that can act as food without worrying about them eating our babies. Provide food for the bugs as well.

Keep the soil well dampened, and probably gently heated from below to help simulate IR penetration from the sun. Light with an MVB and a plant light, making sure there is plenty of shade at all times. Big water dish in the warm area. Flat food dish in a rare open area, flat rock close to under the lamp for a basking site.

We'd probably never see the hatchlings again, until they got too big to go into the smaller holes, or we caught them in a rare bask or bath!



Additional thoughts-
- this is a bioactive substrate, and I did not realize it until I was done writing it. We could pretty much lay fresh Hibiscus and other edible leaves down as a leaf layer, and the micro-organisms and bugs would live off the nutrients the tortoises don't eat, as well as on the tortoise wastes. They'd break it down to additional black mulch, then to soil for us. About all you would need to do is to 'innoculate it' with a couple cups of rich garden soil.

- Several layers of bark, leaves, loose compost, and sandy soil on top would also be perfect for non-burrowing tortoises, like Red- and Yellow-foot, as well as an excellent home for many of the bugs.

- I bet a lot of kinds of roaches and roach-like bugs would be good for this- any thoughts, Tom? If I understand correctly, you can help keep bugs and slugs and such from escaping by putting a couple inches of Vaseline around the top inside of the glass.

- This might be dang-near perfect if we could entice mushrooms and edible fungus to grow in there as well!

NOTE: THIS IS JUST A THOUGHT EXPERIMENT. It may possibly work perfectly as is, but it is just a random thought right now! If you try it and it does not work, it was just a thought. If you try it and your tortoises do wonderfully, it was all my brilliant idea!


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## J. Ellis (Nov 8, 2010)

Mark,

Your Thought Experiment sounds just like an idea I've been discussing with my fiancee. I recently acquired several sets of 6' x 4' metal shelves that I have turned one into a habitat for my leo's. I would prefer there to be much more dirt so they can dig a little here and there (I know they "don't dig", but I'd like to at least let them have the opportunity). I was contemplating the addition of red wrigglers, the worms that most use in vermiculture. Apparently they love slightly moist, warm soil and will eat 10-15x their body weight in feces, fruit, vegetables, etc. 

Then, should the feeling grab the tort's and if they see one of these slimy-protein-bars wriggling ontop of the substrate, they could get a nice little snack .. that is.. if they are carnivorous...


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## terryo (Nov 8, 2010)

I have made similar habitats for my box turtles. Red Wigglers didn't work for me. They ate all the roots of the plants, any leaves that dropped...everything....then all the castings turned into mud...the red wigglers died, and the whole mess smelled awful. 
So now I only use earth worms, pill bugs, and whatever comes along with the leaf litter compost I throw in there. It works much better.


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## DonaTello's-Mom (Nov 8, 2010)

This is a great thread, so interesting. I'm really starting to look at this whole diet thing with open eyes now, just wow. Tom, Mark, and Dean (and everyone else too!) please keep sharing your ideas and thoughts with us.........I may not post very much but I do read ALOT and I'm always trying to be a good student, always willing to learn more....and this topic is really interesting, thanks!!


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## Balboa (Nov 8, 2010)

I think you've nailed it Mark. If we're going to perfectly recreate their environment, that's it. That is the idea isn't it? All along folks tried to recreate the environment, trouble is they recreated the adult environment, not the baby. I think you're right about never seeing them too, which is the downer part. I really think that's their drive as babies, to stay hidden, out of the light, and thus eating bugs and fungi


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## onarock (Nov 8, 2010)

Of the tortoises I keep (listed below) I dont think I've seen them dig what I would consider a burrow. Not even my adults. Ive seen them dig down and sit in mud but never a burrow. I picture a burrow as a hole under the earth at least 8-10 inches deep (for hatchlings). I dont think that there would be much "humidity" at shallower depths. I think they are in the tall grass, leaf litter or in the thick bush. As far as "meat eaters" go, I would say insects are more probable (we have people in here tripping over themselves running for their pantry to crack open some "Fancy Feast" to throw on one of those silver platters to feed to their torts). Relax people, relax. I would love to see some pics of tortoises hatching, digging themselves out, then re-digging burrows. I know there are burrowing tortoises out there, I just dont keep them. I have hatched g.babcocki and g.elegans, left them to absorb the yold sack and then move them to an outdoor pen with peat or coco mix with topsoil and sand. That mixture is pretty easy to dig in and I have never seen them dig. Call me Crazy


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## Balboa (Nov 8, 2010)

Hehe, yah its not just about burrows. That would be sullies and possibly other true desert torts. The non-diggers are more like what you said, burrowing into leaf litter, compost, rootballs etc. By surrounding themselves with warm, moist material they create a nice humid little micro-climate. One that will just happen to be crawling with bugs.


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## Redfoot NERD (Nov 9, 2010)

W E L L !

In 2005 I wrote the first 'caresheet'.. designed for hatchlings - first year.. ( in my sig. below ).

Anyone who has ever 'endured' a phone conversation { with me } has heard about babies "undercover" eating _"bugs, slugs and grubs"_ and tiny roots/sprouts. As well as adults .. "sitting under a fruit tree during harvest time" - 'eating, sleeping, pooping and breeding' til that was done and then to the phase of fallen leaves,etc. as the season changes. And on and on!

In the late 90's there wasn't a lot of [ internet ] info on raisng anything but the standard Russian/Greek tortoises so it was assumed all tortoises were painted with the same brush " dry and no _protein_ "! The results were deformed, ill and dead tortoises from everywhere.. everywhere.

As I watched my first acqired redfoot hatchlings in 1998 begin to grow 'bumpy' I was determined to not allow that to happen with my own hatchlings................ so I did virtually everything opposite the 90's caresheets(?) advocated. This was also the result of speaking with Richard Fife in '04 - remember Richard?.. the sulcata/leopard breeder. And Rico [ TN Aquarium ] who breeds Hermanns/Egytians ----- and not to forget the MASTER breeder of them all - Bill Zovickian - radiated, platynota, Sri ( elegans )..etc., etc. And of course the exotic snake handler turned redfoot breeder Carl? I almost forgot the acquintances from Venezuela and Brazil that added to the understanding of the 'carbonaria species!

And - just for reference - all of this experience occured in my backyard.. over 10 years.. and observing a couple hundred redfoot tortoise hatchlings.

Also... throw something moving/wiggling in amongst hatchlings -adults and watch them RUN to attack them!!!

So 'most' of you are on point.. others might be encouraged to consider what is finally being observed as valid!

For whatever this is worth. 

NERD

btw.. there was a trio of leopard yearlings from 1996 raised to be 12" -14" adults in 2004.. when I acquired the other young adult 2.2 redfoots.


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## Balboa (Nov 9, 2010)

I gotta say Terry, you ARE the inspiration that has driven many of us to think a little harder about how to CARE for our critters, you figured it out a long time ago, and for that we thank you.


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## Madkins007 (Nov 9, 2010)

Terry K- your care sheet teaches us to raise them in a very basic indoor settings with no proteins for the first 6 months- this seems to be a very different message than what you said above. I understand that you stated in your post that this is information you give over the phone, but it still seems to conflict with what is written in the care sheet. 

Another complication is that many of us cannot use the outside for most of the year or have them hatch out naturally outdoors. (Feeling jealous about that again as our weather is shifting colder now. It is still nice here- remarkably late in the year- almost record-setting! Last year was frozen solid by now.)

It is also great to see credit given to those who helped you.



onarock said:


> Of the tortoises I keep (listed below) I dont think I've seen them dig what I would consider a burrow. Not even my adults.



I mention 'burrowing' tortoises only once. Most tortoises, as you suggest, are more opportunistic and use existing burrows, like I suggested making in the substrate for them. I have also seen my little guys nestle pretty deeply into softer materials, hence the thicker layer of softer stuff.

Humidity down deeper? (Sorry, I snipped that part off) I don't see why not. Water penetrates pretty deeply and the deeper it goes, the fewer mechanisms there are to remove it. 

I may not have stated it very well, but the main goals of the theoretical "Baby Tortoise Farm" habitat are to a.) simulate hides in which the tortoise is in full body contact with moist materials and b.) be surrounded by bugs as they would be in nature.


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## onarock (Nov 9, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> Terry K- your care sheet teaches us to raise them in a very basic indoor settings with no proteins for the first 6 months- this seems to be a very different message than what you said above. I understand that you stated in your post that this is information you give over the phone, but it still seems to conflict with what is written in the care sheet.
> 
> Another complication is that many of us cannot use the outside for most of the year or have them hatch out naturally outdoors. (Feeling jealous about that again as our weather is shifting colder now. It is still nice here- remarkably late in the year- almost record-setting! Last year was frozen solid by now.)
> 
> ...





Right, I think I was stating that a shallower burrow would not provide enough humidity as would dry out too quickly. I dont even know if was refering to you as the burrowing tortoise theorist, there are several of you that are of that opinion. Untill someone actually gets out there and witnesses first hand at what these hatchlings do, its all theory.


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## Madkins007 (Nov 9, 2010)

onarock said:


> Right, I think I was stating that a shallower burrow would not provide enough humidity as would dry out too quickly. I dont even know if was refering to you as the burrowing tortoise theorist, there are several of you that are of that opinion. Untill someone actually gets out there and witnesses first hand at what these hatchlings do, its all theory.



My fault- I somehow thought your comment was about a lack of humidity at depth. I misread the statement somehow.

I dunno that it is true that way, either, though. I mean, you turn over a leaf pile, log, bark layer, etc. and it is often nice and damp under there. Trapped moisture, moisture released from the decay process, moisture rising from deeper levels and being trapped by the top layers... That decay process is driven, in part, by the higher degree of moisture present.

The 'it is a theory' element is accurate enough as well, but as a theory, we can discuss and test it without needing to field expeditions. If someone decides to try it with a group of torts, and raise another group in a more traditional way, we can compare the differences between the two groups and against other data like growth charts. While it would not prove that this is how wild torts do it, it could show that it is a feasible, maybe even superior method of raising torts.


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## Redfoot NERD (Nov 9, 2010)

Mark "backyard" meant NOT in South America.. and all of the 'incubating, hatching and raising the first year was/is inside.

A friend of a friend from Venezuela claims they have redfoot tortoises that cruise around in their open backyard.. but they never see them smaller than around 12cm-13cm. I wonder where they had been? I speculate they were "undercover, etc."

Try writing a basic caresheet, from personal experience.. [ keeping in mind that many figure if one is good 2 must be better ] and telling them they should feed their hatchlings all the 'bugs and grubs" they could get their hands on. So I figured it would be better to get them in the habit of "mist-them-til-they-drip" for the first 6 months.. than tell them to feed them all of the stuff that would cause them to grow too fast. [ even strictly greens and fruit for the first 6 months they still over-feed those ] But they always try to re-invent the wheel anyway, instead of doing whatever needs to be done.. based on their own personal backyard environment. 

Sure I could be envious of those in Florida where the temps are high as is the humidity.. but that wouldn't mean anything, now would it?

Why wouldn't I mention those that had HANDS ON experience raising, breeding, incubating, hatching, raising, etc. [ in their own backyard/indoor facilities ]? How many 'field-researchers' have experienced that 100's of times?

BTW.. almost all of the egg-laying/nesting is inside.. where I live!

NERD


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## Madkins007 (Nov 9, 2010)

Terry K- it is hard sometimes to unravel your posts to figure out what you mean.

Your first post said "And - just for reference - all of this experience occured in my backyard.. over 10 years.. and observing a couple hundred redfoot tortoise hatchlings."

Your second said: "BTW.. almost all of the egg-laying/nesting is inside.. where I live!" and ""backyard" meant NOT in South America.. and all of the 'incubating, hatching and raising the first year was/is inside."

So have you been using or advocating 'naturalized hatchling habitats' and offering ready access to protein, as is being discussed here, or not. I cannot tell from what you have posted (although the website care sheet is pretty clear on no protein for babies).


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## Balboa (Nov 9, 2010)

At the risk of derailing a good Terry/Mark spar, which are always informative and entertaining I am going to stick out my neck a bit on this one and go to bat for Terry (who really doesn't need my help LOL) Yes, sometimes his posts take a little work to fully understand, I have sympathy for that, my wife tells me all the time how poor I am at communicating 

His caresheet really is a large reason for this thread's existance. It was while I was thinking about light and D3 in particular, and also about Tom's recent work with "Desert" Torts, inspired by Terry's work with Redfoots, and bouncing ideas off Mark about all of the above and all the different approaches and theories we've got cooking in this forum, like this big swirling casserole in my head that the inspiration for this thread popped up.

Frankly, I'd forgotten about LIMITING protein for the first 6 months in Terry's caresheet, I'd cared little about that part as I had no babies, but I did recall how he largely kept these babies indoors, and adults indoors part of the year, with NO UVB lights, just PL/AQ lamps "so as not to burn out their eyes with all that uv". He advocates Redfoots primarily gaining D3 through Diet. He suggests feeding redfoots far more protein than most other experts. This is of two-fold importance to my current work. Fact is, there IS UV in those PL/AQ bulbs, just in far lesser quantities than a reptile lamp, but maybe enough, ESPECIALLY when coupled with a good diet. Having forgotten about the under 6 month rule, I assumed animal matter was a source of D3 in their Diets. His Babies are kept in dark and warm, cozy environments, and they thrive. Lightbulbs went off for me.

I get where he's coming from in being reticent to advocate bugs for babies. Frankly, I fully expected to get LAMPOONED for doing so. It goes to show, we've come a long ways in truly understanding the needs of our animals, we're getting somewhere as a community.


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## onarock (Nov 9, 2010)

you know, the more I read this thread, the more I think about it. As people we go through different stages in our infancy. I think tortoises do also. What we know about tortoises through captive incubation is they hatch and absorb their yolk sack. Now, some stay in their shells and do this and some break completely free of their shells and do this. If we assume that in the ground they hatch absorb their yolk sack and wait for a rain, then we really dont know how long they sit in their nest. We all know that tortoises dont hatch all together at the same time, but from what I know about ground hatch is that they for the most part dig up together (and there are several GOOD reasons for this). If, like most animals from an egg that are left to fend for themselves, what mom leaves them is generally some of the best food they will ever get i.e a yolk sack. Would it be fair to say that after the hatch and after the absorbtion of the yolk sack and after digging out and seeking a warm humid place to start life, could this not be what we would call a tortoise, but a postnatal hatchling still in the "egg" developmental stage? I guess my point is, with all the talk of burrows and meat eating and D3, none of witch they get in the egg, could it be possible that none of this is really necessary at this fetus stage of development and whatever they get is either necessary or un-necessary, they get what they get. And maybe they go through an internal change unknown to us where everything that we talk about in this forum finally comes into play. I hope I made sense.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Nov 9, 2010)

Very interesting and controversial.


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## cdmay (Nov 10, 2010)

Quote from NERD:
"_As I watched my first acqired redfoot hatchlings in 1998 begin to grow 'bumpy' I was determined to not allow that to happen with my own hatchlings................ so I did virtually everything opposite the 90's caresheets(?) advocated. This was also the result of speaking with Richard Fife in '04 - remember Richard?.. the sulcata/leopard breeder. And Rico [ TN Aquarium ] who breeds Hermanns/Egytians ----- and not to forget the MASTER breeder of them all - Bill Zovickian - radiated, platynota, Sri ( elegans )..etc., etc. And of course the exotic snake handler turned redfoot breeder Carl? I almost forgot the acquintances from Venezuela and Brazil that added to the understanding of the 'carbonaria species!"_

I'm a what? _"Exotic snake handler turned redfoot breeder"? _
NERD you never cease to be highly entertaining. Incomprehensible of course, but entertaining always.


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## Redfoot NERD (Nov 10, 2010)

cdmay said:


> Quote from NERD:
> "_As I watched my first acqired redfoot hatchlings in 1998 begin to grow 'bumpy' I was determined to not allow that to happen with my own hatchlings................ so I did virtually everything opposite the 90's caresheets(?) advocated. This was also the result of speaking with Richard Fife in '04 - remember Richard?.. the sulcata/leopard breeder. And Rico [ TN Aquarium ] who breeds Hermanns/Egytians ----- and not to forget the MASTER breeder of them all - Bill Zovickian - radiated, platynota, Sri ( elegans )..etc., etc. And of course the exotic snake handler turned redfoot breeder Carl? I almost forgot the acquintances from Venezuela and Brazil that added to the understanding of the 'carbonaria species!"_
> 
> I'm a what? _"Exotic snake handler turned redfoot breeder"? _
> NERD you never cease to be highly entertaining. Incomprehensible of course, but entertaining always.



Thank you Carl! Did you not work with 'exotic' snakes early on.. good sources claim this?! Weren't you early on known for the 'rare' species of snakes that you bred? I knew that would get you going.

NERD


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## Redfoot NERD (Nov 10, 2010)

Balboa said:


> At the risk of derailing a good Terry/Mark spar, which are always informative and entertaining I am going to stick out my neck a bit on this one and go to bat for Terry (who really doesn't need my help LOL) Yes, sometimes his posts take a little work to fully understand, I have sympathy for that, my wife tells me all the time how poor I am at communicating
> 
> His caresheet really is a large reason for this thread's existance. It was while I was thinking about light and D3 in particular, and also about Tom's recent work with "Desert" Torts, inspired by Terry's work with Redfoots, and bouncing ideas off Mark about all of the above and all the different approaches and theories we've got cooking in this forum, like this big swirling casserole in my head that the inspiration for this thread popped up.
> 
> ...



Thank you Balboa!.. although it may seem like I'm sparring with Mark.. I'm just making sure that there is not anyone that falls for the contradiction that may confuse what is really simple. A basic/simple - easy to use 'caresheet' is what we all want isn't it??? And I'm not about to post the number of "thank you's" and requests for help I get a couple times every week via email.

Read each sentence/group of words as a separate meaning. Maybe I make it too simple? We have to remember I'm trying to respond to what others' claim.. maybe not in the right order.

So yes, when we feed the hatchlings - yearlings a progression of tender leaves ( dandelions, hibiscus, curly endive, collards, etc. ) and well-ripened fruit.. they seem to do fine; mine have anyway.

As far as what "protein" they consume in the wild [ prior to 6 months of age ].. you suppose nature gives them the instinct as to when, what and how much? No doubt better than [ here's a reply to a comment ] what any "researchers" have done in the wild or in a lab! Besides why would you experiment with baby tortoises when there has been how many [ another response ] DECADES of "How NOT to care for tortoises"!?!? Man has proven that real well.. I did for about 5 years and Tom claimed for how many years?... the list is never ending!

When it works don't fix it.. keep it simple.. less is best... and NEVER listen to what the petstore tells you!




.. their purpose is to sell you stuff. 

AND hands-on/longer-term breeders 'usually' know more about caring for hatchlings of particular species.. than field/computer researchers do. Of course there are always exceptions, extremes and those that don't agree or contradict.

NERD


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## Madkins007 (Nov 10, 2010)

Stepping back to the thesis of the thread, I thought it would be useful to toss out another reminder that this IS the DEBATABLE TOPICS section, and as such, these ideas are somewhere between actual fact and wild speculation. (Thanks, Carl, for reminding me about this.)

Do baby tortoises eat bugs? Certainly. Although most of the observations come from tortoise breeders, keepers, and farmers, there are also rare comments about it from field workers as well.

What percentage of the diet does this form in the wild? This is the million-dollar question, and the answer is that no one knows. Rare, opportunistic grabs? Routine part of the diet? Major part of the diet? We don't know. We know that babies will 'park and gorge' on bugs, fruits, flowers, etc. when they find something they like, but that does not mean it is normal or healthy.

What does this mean for caring for baby tortoises? I dunno. Protein = rapid growth, but is that good or bad? It is normal in sliders, box turtles, and many other species. We can complicate it even further by wondering if there is a difference in the various species of tortoises? 

The safe and easy answer would be to simply say to follow someone's caresheet and call it good, but that assumes that we know EVERYTHING there is to know about the species and there is no more room for improvement. Since we don't even know 'everything' about human babies, we obviously don't know everything about tortoises.

And, that brings us back the the DEBATABLE TOPICS threads- a place to discuss exactly this sort of thing- ideas and thoughts we cannot necessarily prove but want to talk about!


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## cdmay (Nov 10, 2010)

_Thank you Carl! Did you not work with 'exotic' snakes early on.. good sources claim this?! Weren't you early on known for the 'rare' species of snakes that you bred? I knew that would get you going.
NERD _--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well yeah, I've kept and bred a number of snake species but I was never what you would call a snake person _per se_. Likewise I've also kept and bred a bunch of geckos but I was never really a lizard guy either. 
Turtles and tortoises were what I had first--since 1966 when I caught my first hatchling Florida cooters and striped mud turtles---and have the most experience with.


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## Balboa (Nov 10, 2010)

Yup,
and my stand is rapidly becoming more and more convinced...
bugs, bugs, bugs, and lots of them, probably primarily.

In thinking about how to move forward with this idea, I have one problem. I'm in no position to run an experiment, hopefully that will change down the road, so if qualified individuals have the desire, please do. Always consider the safety of the torts, qualified individuals only please (ie experienced keepers who know how to watch for serious problems starting, before they become serious)

when/if I go about the experiment, I'm thinking I might start with a group of Boxies, as this is a known species for which the kind of environment proposed by Mark will work. I'd do this to ensure that I had a workable premise on raising conditions in the first place. I need to be sure I can correctly raise babies that I know need to be raised in dark places with creepy crawlies before I try babies I'm unsure on.

As Mark suggested, a virtual compost heap in a large tub, populated with earthworms and pill bugs. Heating from beneath would be mandatory, to replicate natural conditions of stable earth temps, and a considerably larger bio-mass of mulch than I actually had. I would likely still include a basking spot with UV, very direct though, like a sunbreak in the overhead foliage, so as to not overly disturb the inhabitants. Other occupants could possibly be a colony of roaches, would they possibly be too prolific though? Need to consult Tom on this. May need spiders to keep everything in check.

After I succesful run of boxies in such an enclosure, being sure to take good notes, and probably still trying to raise another group of boxies with more traditional means, I could move on to a known omnivore species such as redfoots, and then, temperate , maybe greeks, then the big deal desert. Could take years LOL


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## terryo (Nov 10, 2010)

Balboa said:


> Yup,
> and my stand is rapidly becoming more and more convinced...
> bugs, bugs, bugs, and lots of them, probably primarily.
> 
> ...





I have been raising box turtles for over 30 years, in as natural environment as I could provide. I'm still doing it. My Father did it before me. Tom, from TurtleTails has also been doing this for years too. He has many pictures of his vivariums on his site. So your experiment is nothing new and has been proven to work. When providing a natural environment, I always throw in some of my own compost, which has lots of insects...worms, pill bugs...etc. Sometime I won't see a hatchling for days, but I have caught some great pictures many times of them eating small worms or pill bugs that they find in the substrate. I have never taken any out to soak, but always provided clean water. Heat is always from above...not below. I don't start feeding fruit or veggies until they are older and come out on their own. Low light, high warm humidity....plenty of leaf litter, plants, and insects...very effective for raising Box Turtle Hatchlings.


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## Kristina (Nov 10, 2010)

I understand what Terry K. is saying, and honestly it is something I posted about several pages back - caution and moderation. I do think this idea has merit, BUT, I can see people taking this way too far. Just because juvenile torts may consume some protein in the wild, and just because adults may also, does not mean it is a good idea to start bombarding them with protein sources. I can see all kinds of liver and kidney issues cropping up because someone might run too far with this idea.

You have to pick your battles in this oh so interesting world of tortoise keeping. Terry K. chose to battle for humidity (misting them until the drip) - and so far, it has worked. It works for the Redfoots he raises, it has worked for Terry's Pio, and it is working for my little Black Cherry. It is also working for Tom's Sulcatas and Leopards.

Another one of Terry K.'s premises is NOT to overfeed. People have a tendency to do that - which is what he meant by "one is good, two is better." Overfeeding causes rapid growth (particularly overfeeding protein sources) which in turn causes gaps between the scutes, and a less than perfect looking tortoise. What is it also doing to the internal organs?

While I do 100% believe that baby tortoises eat and perhaps need some protein, I would be just as scared telling a new owner that as Terry K. would be. Why? Because some people just do not use common sense. If one worm is good, two worms are better! Hey, dog food and monkey chow have protein in them, why not use those?!?!

Do I think a little bite of worm or bug here and there is going to hurt? No, I don't *think* so. But I don't know. And unless it can be shown in a controlled manner, I will still continue to use protein sources in moderation. I no longer am of the school that thinks protein has anything to do with pyramiding - but I do think it can cause harm in other ways, in excess.


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## Balboa (Nov 10, 2010)

I should have probably clarified that I meant to start with boxies not to prove the concept worked for them, but because as Terry has demonstrated I know it will work. She would be a number one consult for sure. At that point its not testing the turtles, its testing ME.


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## Redfoot NERD (Nov 10, 2010)

It's always unbelieveable what these [ redfoot ] tortoises can be subjected to and still survive!

Last week I received an email from someone that was so concerned that their 3 yr. old.. that they had for a year.. was not eating the right things and is he healthy?.. on and on.

What do you suppose I should have told her?

Take a look at these pics she sent me..
















How many of you would be proud to show how you have kept your 3 yr. old redfoot.. that looks like this one???

She had absolutely no idea what she was doing.. yet whatever it was.. it was working! Do you think I should give her grief about the "wrong" substrate? *NO!* 

How do the 'newbe's' feel when we wear them out with all the tech. stuff? Ask TerryO about her bout with humidity.

Sorry 'bout this example in your thread Balboa.. a rare rare example... most are the total opposite.

NERD


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## terryo (Nov 10, 2010)

She's just about perfect. I love when I see those growth lines so perfect...no big spaces. (Am I saying this right?)


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## Balboa (Nov 10, 2010)

She is beautiful, and I WOULD like to know how she was keeping it.


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## Redfoot NERD (Nov 10, 2010)

Balboa said:


> She is beautiful, and I WOULD like to know how she was keeping it.



I asked her Balboa.. we'll see what she says.

NERD


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## biglove4bigtorts (Nov 11, 2010)

I think facts about one species (say boxies) and applying them to another species , by assumption (say sulcata) is misguided, though it is certainly acceptable to draw experience from one species and taking it into consideration, when building a larger picture of a species.
Boxies and many sliders, cooters, and pond turtles, are almost exclusively cariverous as babies, as are bearded dragons. However, that does not go to say that a sulcata hatchling should fare well, treated the same as a boxie or a green iguana would be healthy treated to a diet like a baby bearded dragon.

With iguanas, we use alfalfa and other green parts of legumes and even supplement with bee pollen...this as proven relatively safe and a good way to provide additional protein. It is tapered to lesser amounts as the animals grow and the the case of bearded dragons, the diet is completely reversed from 25% veg to 75% animal protein as a htachling and to 75% veg and 25% protein as adults.

I think, as with igs, grassland tortoise species are best treated as vegetarian and protein sources should not be avoided, if they are plant based, but that animal material should be limited or eliminated altogether.
With forest species (boxies, wood, bod, spotted, manouria, kinixys, red/yellow foots), would not be harmed by being treated like bearded dragons until a year or two of age, where the ratio should be approaching 50/50, and progressing to the adult bearded dragon diet, with even less animal protien sources as adults, compared to bearded dragons. I thing, when animal sources are offered, it should be in insect form and the insects should be gutloaded on grains, fruits, and veggies, and above all, the trotoise must be well hydrated and with optium temperature and humidity.


I am nervous with my Manouria and have thus far offered no animal protein, although I have introduced pill bugs and they were munched, but spit out. I am nervous, b/c the daults are so similar to larger/grassland adults, even thoght the babies do echo boxies. I offer bee pollen dusted on the food three times a week as of this week. On a 100% veg diet, with no emphasis on protein, though they were fed small amounts of clover, trefoil, and other green parts of legumes, as they were available, but only in scant amounts; they sill doubled in size in less than a year. Clearly, they don't require animal sources of protein to have normal/healthy growth rates and to be healthy overall. I don't think a few earthworms would hurt, but at this point, I see no need to offer anything that isn't required for their health.

Humans are omnivores, our teeth structure and even brain size indicate that we are designed, by nature to eat both meat and veg/grains. However, a properly balanced (not easily done), vegetarian diet has proven to be a viable and healthier alternative to approaching our diet. Red meats are groosly overused by our culture and at the very leats, we could switch to a seafood and veg diet and be the picture of good nutrition.
Comparing that to our tortoises, with the limited excercise our tortoises get indoors (considering what I assume are most keepers with young torts) and with reduced exposure to natural sunlight, I think should be treated differenlty than wild tortoises, even if it was proven that all baby torts eat 50% protein in the wild. They are in captivity and therefore, the diet will have to be tailored to the tortoises other daily living conditions.

With tortoises doing just fine treated as strict herbiviores ( with the woodland torts as an exception), I see any experiments with protein on tem, that may or may not harm thier livers and kidneys, as unnessacarily cruel. When tortoises were kept too dry years ago and pyramiding resulted, there was a need to experiment with humidity, that by raising under current thought, could cause shell rot and URI, but there was a need to experiment...that is not soo with diet IMO.

Now try feeding baby uormastyx insects and I'd be for it, since currenlty we are not acheiving wild growth rates ( they are higher in the wild), on a veggie diet in captivity.


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## Madkins007 (Nov 11, 2010)

biglove4bigtorts said:


> I think facts about one species (say boxies) and applying them to another species , by assumption (say sulcata) is misguided, though it is certainly acceptable to draw experience from one species and taking it into consideration, when building a larger picture of a species.
> 
> {snip}
> 
> ...


(Emphasis above is mine)

This is sort of the point. With almost no wild or field data, and most baby tortoise diets based mostly on theory and experience because of this, the question might be asked- what if the babies NEED protein for proper development, like sliders and boxies do? Maybe the cruelty is keeping them from meats? There is anecdotal evidence that feeding high protein to Sulcata and other grassland species improves reproductive success. 

It is certainly a valid point that some tortoises have different dietary requirements, but things like the amino acids requirements for building healthy tissues are about the same across the board.

This is why something like this is such an interesting debatable issue!


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## DeanS (Nov 11, 2010)

I'm curious if Tom has started feeding his sulcata and leopard babies an alternative protein supplement! I'm kinda balking at feeding pinkies to my yearlings...I'm wondering if it would do more harm than good at this point!?!?


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## Balboa (Nov 11, 2010)

biglove4bigtorts,
Mark already put it pretty well, the fact is we know little to nothing about the natural life of baby tortoises in general.
I agree it would be irresponsible at this point to start loading up a baby sulcata on protein. I seriously doubt an occasional bug will harm them.

The start of this whole thread stems from thoughts on how to emulate the natural life of tortoise babies as closely as possible in captive environments. When looking at things logically... if a baby sulcata required 100% vegetarian diet in the wild... there would be NO sulcata. Plants don't grow where they live. So what DO they eat? How can a creature that avoids sunlight produce D3?

Box and Terrestrial turtles are the closest related species to tortoises (to put it mildly) and live in the same conditions that baby tortoises do. Its like tortoises are the turtles that "grew up", but baby tortoises need to go back to that primordial lifestage and live like their ancestors a bit, until developed enough to survive drier, harsher environments. Hence it makes sense to consider how baby turtles live.

Just a theory, and here to be debated.


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## onarock (Nov 11, 2010)

So without a witness we are concluding that sulcata hatchlings dont have access to plant matter? (Balboa: plants dont grow where they live). I guess we are also assuming that they live exclusively in burrows?? For how long? Did any of you read my previous post?


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## Balboa (Nov 11, 2010)

LOL yes I did, and it is interesting, and I apologize for NOT responding before we went off on different directions.
The trouble for me is, I've never had a hatchling(tortoise that is), not sure I ever will, might be nice to breed some someday. I really have no observations on their physical developement at that point. 

It seems logical that a yolk sack meets many of their needs for a little while, I believe in chickens the yolk is largely protein, somebody correct me please if that's wrong, so would make sense the Torts sac will carry that need a while, but once its gone its gone, and there's only so much processing a little body can do. It doesn't seem likely that they have a nutrient deficiency work around built in that operates while small, and lose once larger, but who knows.


I recall reading that in many species, they do exactly as you said, they just stay buried for a long time, its usually fall or winter when they hatch, so they need to literally start off hibernating so to speak, the yolksac keeps them alive until spring when they can crawl out with the "thaw". During this time I'd imagine their nervous systems are still developing, etc.

lol and I forgot to address the "burrows"

we are assuming they live hidden. This is the one factor that CAN be concluded from what we know about baby tortoises. They are NEVER seen wandering around with the adults in nature. They are somewhere else... out of sight of large predators. Wherever EXACTLY it is will be species locale dependant. In the true desert the only place to hide is in the ground. In the forest, its under logs, in thick brush. These are places with low light, and are often the only places in an environment to find sufficient humidity to maintain such a fragile, little life.


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## onarock (Nov 11, 2010)

Balboa said:


> LOL yes I did, and it is interesting, and I apologize for NOT responding before we went off on different directions.
> The trouble for me is, I've never had a hatchling(tortoise that is), not sure I ever will, might be nice to breed some someday. I really have no observations on their physical developement at that point.
> 
> It seems logical that a yolk sack meets many of their needs for a little while, I believe in chickens the yolk is largely protein, somebody correct me please if that's wrong, so would make sense the Torts sac will carry that need a while, but once its gone its gone, and there's only so much processing a little body can do. It doesn't seem likely that they have a nutrient deficiency work around built in that operates while small, and lose once larger, but who knows.
> ...





LOL Balboa..... I gotta be honest, I laughed after reading it right as I was hitting the Post button. What was I thinking, postnatal "fetus" development HA!


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## Balboa (Nov 11, 2010)

Hey Dude, I think that's called organic thinking or something like that, that's where the best stuff comes from. Wacky out there notions that spark ideas. good stuff.

I made an observation today that sparked a notion that tends to put holes in my theory. hmm was that organic?

Adrienne is a hider, she only comes out to eat, if then, usually she eats after a soak. From what I read that's not really normal 4 inch red foot behavior, but is normal for a "distressed/depressed/whatever" redfoot. THat part plays into my theory, what to do when around scary things? dig in and hide. stay out of the light. I'm hoping she'll have a turn-around and start getting out more, etc., like Rocky did. In an effort to encourage her to bask I turned her hide a little bit so she has to walk over the basking spot to get in, thinking sometime she might say.. ohh that's nice, or whatever. No... she pokes her little head out into the light, her body still in the hide. Guess what... she's fairly well hidden, AND getting some UVB.

RUH ROH, didn't think about that one.

but I'm still convinced what she really wants to eat is bugs. Big difference between poking your head out of the hole and LEAVING the hole to get food.


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## onarock (Nov 11, 2010)

I have a cople of maybe 4" redfoots that were given to me by a guy who couldnt give them proper care. I have never kept them in the almost 30 years of tortoise keeping. I just set them up in a new enclosure. I gave them a good size hide its a plastic pot half burried and only one likes to go in it. The other prefers to dig under an almost flat piece of slate on a flat rock. I was watching it dig and dig, it was pretty funny. All of my younger tortoises come out from where they are hiding quickly at the first sign on rain or simulated hose rain. My young platynota like to stay in the hide box but just in the rays of light coming in the opening. I put cactus pads near the hide and watched them drag the pad inside the hide. I have several enclosures with young tortoises and when I clean out their hides I've found just about everything I have ever fed them in there.


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## Edna (Nov 11, 2010)

DeanS said:


> I'm curious if Tom has started feeding his sulcata and leopard babies an alternative protein supplement! I'm kinda balking at feeding pinkies to my yearlings...I'm wondering if it would do more harm than good at this point!?!?



I don't know what Tom is doing, but I have added worms to both of my enclosures (Tom/Cory Gpps, and 1 year old Hermann). I added a little garden soil to the damper, cooler end of the enclosures and the worms seem happy there. It's cool to see the little bits of leftover greens being pulled down holes! It is already too cold here to find any living bugs outside, so if I try making any other living things available, it will have to come from the bait shop or pet store. I've been watching this thread for ideas about what to offer, sticking with bugs and such. 
So far the torts don't seem interested in the worms. This evening Torty surprised a worm crossing one of his trails. The worm rapidly sucked across the trail, leaving only a tip showing, and Torty paused politely. At this point, with my torts, it's not about what wild hatchings eat in their natural habitats, but rather about what well-fed captive torts might be interested in eating if it's available.


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## Balboa (Nov 11, 2010)

I will say this for sure, your enclosure will benefit!
I've never seen Rocky pull up a worm, but I'm not watching her 24/7, and I know there are a lot in there. She's also past the age I'd expect a tort to be overly interested in worms, but I'm sure if one was laying in her dish, she'd enjoy it.


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## biglove4bigtorts (Nov 11, 2010)

I am sure desert tortoises hatclings do occupy burrows, but it is erroneous to conclude they wouldn't have access to plant material, b/c of this. THe reasons you see very few baby torts in the wild witht he adults is also due in part that many offspring are eaten, many are well camoflauged, when above ground and there small size makes it easy to disappear into a grass clump. It also abit inaccurate to state that there are no plants available for desert spcies, b/c the adult tortoises ARE herbivores.

The suggestion that the cruel thing might be denying them meat, is disproven by the numerous, healthy adult tortoises that have been raised as 100% herbivorous and were hatched in captivity. If protein were seriously dificient, then the tortoises would not grow properly and suffer visible symptoms.....I am not saying this is not an open topic for discussion..I find most of the reasoning accurate and understand where each side is baseing thier opinion...this just happens to be mine. I also want to point out that I DO think that tortoises and younger ones in particular, would do best with careful consideration to providing plant based protein sources, that are unlikely to harm organs affected by excess animal proteins and as in bovines....even though the amino acids chains in vegetable proteins are different than those in animal based sources, it is what all herbivores have adapted to utilizeing and there are many, many soley herbivorous animals that grow just fine and some quite large on 100% vegetable protein sources.

I posed a similar question in the asian tortoises section, regarding useing legumes as a protein source, b/c I too question the lact of available protein in a spring mix, store green, and weed diet, that is not aumented with alfalfa, clover, spirulina, bee pollen, or some other protein source. I utilize bee pollen, modest amounts of legumes (foliage only), and Repashy veggie dust to fill the bill. I am doing that for my Winter feeding anyway, since clover and fresh alfalfa are not available. 







I wanted to add that mammals are a poor example of animals that obtain large size and/ or live their whole lives on a vegetarian diet, b/c even herbivorous mammals start life on a rich animal protein source...mama's milk. Most mammals attain the majority of their size during thier growth while consuming milk.

Their are however huge fish, mullusks, insects, and reptiles that do live entirely on vegetation and do just fine. Their systems have developed to utilize the proteins in vegetation optimally to live and grow.


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## Madkins007 (Nov 11, 2010)

biglove4bigtorts said:


> The suggestion that the cruel thing might be denying them meat, is disproven by the numerous, healthy adult tortoises that have been raised as 100% herbivorous and were hatched in captivity. If protein were seriously dificient, then the tortoises would not grow properly and suffer visible symptoms.



This would be a reasonable comment if we had good clinical evidence that that the tortoises raised were indeed healthy in all respects on such a diet. Before we could say this, however, we would need to know some things, like the relationship between captive vs wild longevity, reproduction rates, growth rates, wild hatchling diets (if any- some field studies suggest that Gopher Tortoises, for example, do not forage at all for the first 6 months or so) etc.

Most captive tortoises do not seem to be living longer than about 20 years- this alone seems to suggest that we, on average, are not generally raising healthy tortoises. If a common Snapping Turtle can live over 100 with Civil War musket balls in it's flesh, surely a tortoise can beat 20 with one leg tied behind it's shell.

I am probably going to put this badly, but as I understand it, when zoos see non-specific deaths in a species, they often look at dietary issues- things missing, such as the selenium (I think it was) that was missing from the diets of most captive zebras many years ago. 

It would be REALLY NICE to solve this debate by either raising a bunch of babies of different species with freely available bugs and in a control group for a really long time, or by a good multi-species field study.

Some articles I would like to see in full that might help would include:

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/brill/ah/2005/00000002/00000002/art00010

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1563693

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1655/02-50

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9780470698877.ch4/summary


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## biglove4bigtorts (Nov 12, 2010)

There is no doubt, that like all reptiles, we need more information about natural blood serum levels, reproductive, longevity, and dietary information, for comparison. I do however believe, that tortoises bred in captivity and kept with a proper diet and environment from the start, can, will, and does currently exceed the 20 year mark you mentioned.

90% of WC chameleons die within 30 days of captivity, which is a horrible prospective, but that is because many of them don't wind up in capable hands...many of the tortoises that are dieing young have been sullies sold to people ignorant of a proper habitat and diet. I think the numbers for educated keepers would be much better than 20 years.

As far as growth rates, I'm sure that hatchlings with educated keepers grow faster or as fast as wild counterparts, b/c there are no seasonal interruptions in food supply and they are often not hibernated until after a year or two, when in captivity.

I think some simple blood work on wild members of all tortoises and fecal analysis of wild young tortoises ( would be difficult to obtain) and even adults would go a looooong way towards giving us a dietary profile that would allow us to better provide supplementation of calcium, vitamins, D3, and protein. However, healthy captive animals, ones that have been bred and raised by educated keepers from the start and have had no signs of abnormal growth or health problems would be a reasonable place to start, so that we have a better understanding of what is going on in a healthy animal that we can replicate.

It is not a complete or perfect database, but it is VERY important not to fill in the holes with radical, potentially harmful experimentation. Having access to insects in the enclosure, as is the case outdoors is one thing, but adding insects or meat to the dish of greens is not to be advised for most species....IMO


I gave more thought to the myriad of animals that do start life on milk or by scavengeing/predation and as adults, become herbivores. I then thought of many frogs and toads that do the opposite. The adpoles start out as herbivorous, eating algae, then metamorphose into insectivorous adults, where they do the majority of their growth. It depends less on what is available in the environment and more about what the species' body has learned to utilize for healthy growth and nutrition. Most herbivores/omnivores have fast metabolisms and movements for locateing prey/scavengeing oppertunities. Torts have slower movements and rather slow gut motility, when adults and fed a vegetarian diest, as they eat in the wild. A baby tortoise should be more active and have different blood serum levels, if it is to utelize the calories and protein found in a diet dominated by insects. At least that is my speculation.


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## Madkins007 (Nov 12, 2010)

biglove4bigtorts said:


> (snip)
> I do however believe, that tortoises bred in captivity and kept with a proper diet and environment from the start, can, will, and does currently exceed the 20 year mark you mentioned.
> 
> 90% of WC chameleons die within 30 days of captivity, which is a horrible prospective, but that is because many of them don't wind up in capable hands...many of the tortoises that are dieing young have been sullies sold to people ignorant of a proper habitat and diet. I think the numbers for educated keepers would be much better than 20 years.
> ...



The most common 'short-lived' tortoise I hear about is the Russians that so many people struggle to have live for more than 5 years, but it is just really uncommon to hear about older tortoises in captivity outside of places like Florida. The thing is we've been keeping tortoises as pets for a really long time and I don't have much of a sense we have really done a lot for longevity.

As for the experiment- I completely agree. In my thought model, I would just have bugs and worms living as naturally as I could for the tortoises to hunt and enjoy if they grab them.


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## Kristina (Nov 12, 2010)

Balboa said:


> She's also past the age I'd expect a tort to be overly interested in worms



We are talking about a Redfoot, right? Don't bet money on it dear  I have a 14 incher that will climb in my lap after worms. 

Worms = forest tortoise crack


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## Balboa (Nov 12, 2010)

ROFL then maybe I just THINK I have Earthworms in there


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## biglove4bigtorts (Nov 12, 2010)

*captive lifespans?*

Are there any common denominators in the death of captive torts, that are kept properly (as we know it be now)?
You mention those kept outdoors in Florida fare better, that indicates a vital need for sunlight...IMO
I can't imagine why a properly fed, housed, and cared for tortoise would have a shorter lifespan in captivity...it should be longer without the predation and food shortages, diseases and parasites of life in the wild.


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## onarock (Nov 12, 2010)

biglove I would like to research that. I know that the platynota studbbok list deaths and weather an autopsy was performed. Maybe I could ask around, you bring up an interesting question


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## biglove4bigtorts (Nov 13, 2010)

As far as I am aware, the methods for keeping torts the way we do now and the mainstream use of humidity for hatchlings (compared to recent past), has only begun to be widely adopted in the last 10 years. And again, the majority of torts that are sold are not going to experienced keepers or even people who are putting the proper research and therefore, the proper efforts into keeping thier animals healthy. We should see a rise in captive lifespans for most, if not all species and I strongly feel that among experienced/ educated keepers, most species are doing well in captivity...sullies are being rasised to adulthood with smooth shells, as are leopards, boxies, ussians, greeks, redfoots, manouria, and so on....Hingebacks are being acclimated and breeding in captivity...we just time for the data to represent the proper demographics and give time for current keeping trends to live out in hatchlings to judge the difference between those hatched a decade ago. We have to look specifically at properly kept tortoises to make judgements about the potential for extended captive lifespans and not include the thousands that die as dehydrated imports, poorly fed hatchlings, ones kept cold or too dry...and so on. It would take a long-term and very dedicated study that examined and witheld a standard of what keeping techniques were considered to be those of an educated/experienced keeper and that they were indeed the ''right'' way to keep the tortoises.








onarock said:


> biglove I would like to research that. I know that the platynota studbbok list deaths and weather an autopsy was performed. Maybe I could ask around, you bring up an interesting question


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## Madkins007 (Nov 13, 2010)

biglove4bigtorts said:


> As far as I am aware, the methods for keeping torts the way we do now and the mainstream use of humidity for hatchlings (compared to recent past), has only begun to be widely adopted in the last 10 years. And again, the majority of torts that are sold are not going to experienced keepers or even people who are putting the proper research and therefore, the proper efforts into keeping thier animals healthy. We should see a rise in captive lifespans for most, if not all species and I strongly feel that among experienced/ educated keepers, most species are doing well in captivity...sullies are being rasised to adulthood with smooth shells, as are leopards, boxies, ussians, greeks, redfoots, manouria, and so on....Hingebacks are being acclimated and breeding in captivity...we just time for the data to represent the proper demographics and give time for current keeping trends to live out in hatchlings to judge the difference between those hatched a decade ago. We have to look specifically at properly kept tortoises to make judgements about the potential for extended captive lifespans and not include the thousands that die as dehydrated imports, poorly fed hatchlings, ones kept cold or too dry...and so on. It would take a long-term and very dedicated study that examined and witheld a standard of what keeping techniques were considered to be those of an educated/experienced keeper and that they were indeed the ''right'' way to keep the tortoises.



There are a few problems with trying to raise torts in a more scientific way. We don't know a lot about the hatchling life, we don't have a lot of clinical values for things like recommended calcium or D3, and they live for a long time (even if not for as long as wilds would.) If I am doing a longitudinal study on something like UV and reproduction, it would take me a decade just to get most of the torts to reliable breeding age. Raising a hundred or so torts under controlled conditions for 10 years is tough.

I also believe I was trying originally to make the point that there may be flaws in our cares if our charges are indeed not living as long or longer than wild torts. 

Sadly, this is another gap in our knowledge. As far as I know, we only have sketchy anecdotal information as to lifespans and causes of deaths in most cases outside of zoos, etc.


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## DeanS (Nov 13, 2010)

Hey! You guys gotta hear this! Just got an email from my buddy in Germany (the guy I inherited Diesel from). He told me that Diesel had in fact eaten baby opossums and rats on occasion...and Diesel is a mammoth! But he is pyramided...probably due to the fact that he was soaked every 2 weeks and kept in ultra dry conditions as a hatchling! But he did have a water bowl and drank EVERYDAY! I love learning from other peoples' mistakes...not that haven't made a few myself...but I NEVER repeat my mistakes.


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## Az tortoise compound (Nov 13, 2010)

Where can I get baby possums in AZ? It's lunch time!

......complete sarcasm, I won't be feeding any mammals. Now earthworms or grubs??........


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## Balboa (Nov 13, 2010)

I have a feeling about something here, and don't really want to get to personal, or offend, but Biglove, are you a Vegan? I get the sense you feel threatened by the notion that young torts MAY need animal protein in a truly natural diet.

I could totally get where a vegan could be really into vegetarian tortoises, there are few other reptiles that fit that bill, and gives a sort camraderie unobtainable with other pets. That's TOTALLY cool, and I get that.

The whole point of this thread, was that I SUSPECT we are missing a necessary factor in the natural diet of BABY tortoises by assuming they eat EXACTLY as adults do, as logic dictates that to be unlikely.

Can that potential need be met with a purely vegetarian diet? Certainly! but with care, and its difficult to know until more facts are known about the actual dietary requirements of hatchlings as met by nature. I'm saying we need to learn more, not that someone should start feeding their tort puppy chow as 90% of its diet. That would be reckless and ill advised. 

It should also be pointed out that this is about babies, and by babies I'm thinking under a few months for most species, past that point they will rely more and more on vegetarian diets.


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## biglove4bigtorts (Nov 13, 2010)

LOL.......no, I am certainly not vegan or vegetarian by any sense of the word. I eat way more meat than I wouldlike to.

The reason I am so careful witht he introduction of animals proteins in captive tortoises, is that I know from working with other animals, just how dangerous protein can be, when it is not in the right from. Even insectovorous reptiles are very subject to fatty livers and nutritional deficits, if the captive diet isn't carefully evaluated and and represented by a large variety of quality prey items, with fatty, larval types of prey being kept to a minimum.

I am not convinced you are wrong, but the implications, if you are and people begin feeding animal based protein sources, are serious. I believe baby tortoises are ''experimental feeders'' and are very likey to consume or sample invertebrates that catch thier eye, but I also think they eat lots of fungi and the vegetation they consume is more nutrient dense, than the greens they may get in captivity, which tend to be higher in nitrates and less in vitamins and minerals. They also eat throughout the day and not just all at one sitting. I also think a tortoise that occupies one burrow would exhaust the invertebrate supply, if it that was all it ate and did not move along to a new burrow, b/c the influx of new invertebrates wouldn't come fast enough to sustain them...they would also have to move to find accessible water for drinking in order to cope with such a diet.

I don't completely disagree with you, but I err more towards a vegetarian tortoise, b/c it is safer than attempting to gauge how much prtein is too much. If we feel protein is lacking, it is much less reported to suffer from over consumption of plant based proteins, though it is often advised against feeding high protein plants in large amounts. I am adding ''green proteins'' as we speak, b/c with Winter here and a heavier relianceon store greens, I feel it couldn't hurt. I think 25% of the diet being made up of alfalfa and clover, won't hurt them, but add that protein via insects or mammalian petfoods and you will almost certainly see negative health affects. 










Balboa said:


> I have a feeling about something here, and don't really want to get to personal, or offend, but Biglove, are you a Vegan? I get the sense you feel threatened by the notion that young torts MAY need animal protein in a truly natural diet.
> 
> I could totally get where a vegan could be really into vegetarian tortoises, there are few other reptiles that fit that bill, and gives a sort camraderie unobtainable with other pets. That's TOTALLY cool, and I get that.
> 
> ...


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## Balboa (Nov 13, 2010)

LOL Fair enough, I just wanted to be careful here, I could see offending someone pretty easily without meaning to if I ignored the possibility. I've known a few Vegans, dang it makes barbecues a pain.


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## biglove4bigtorts (Nov 13, 2010)

I don't offend easily and for me, a true measure of intelligence is the ability to carry on a debate, have differing opions, and still respect eachother. I despise elitest attitudes and close-mindeness....you have shown none of those traits, so I don't consider you an opponent, just someone with different, and if I might add, well thought out ideas.


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## moswen (Nov 13, 2010)

Az tortoise compound said:


> I volunteer to go and study them in their natural environment. I'll dig in through burrows with a small camera and report directly back to TFO.
> Now, all you guys need to do is fund the study! I will be waiting with my bags packed. I accept Paypal.
> Looking forward to Africa,



HAHAHA!! love it.


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