# Hatchling Failure Syndrome?



## OMary (Jan 23, 2016)

I bought 2 Hermann's hatchlings in October. They are housed together. One is thriving and always has been. The other has always had less activity, and it has gotten worse. The vet can't find anything, except possible dehydration (a couple spots of shed on her face that the other didn't have). I have increased humidity to 60-80%, increased daily soaks from 10-15 min to 30 min. This has helped a small amount (she wakes up most mornings), but it isn't enough. She isn't growing, and the other one is doing wonderfully. 

A friend also bought 2 Hermann's from same place. She had the same situation- one thrived, the other kept declining, shell softened, and died. I am afraid we are going to meet the same fate, and have recently thought about putting the tort down. Is there anything I can do to improve her condition?


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## Jodie (Jan 23, 2016)

Try separating them. Often one is dominant and the other one is so stressed it won't eat, drink or bask.


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## dmmj (Jan 23, 2016)

I would try separating them as well. the main problem is as if they were started dry it damages the organs and it slowly dies but before you consider putting it down I would try separating them into different enclosures and see if that helps


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## OMary (Jan 23, 2016)

Would it have been like this from the beginning though and at this age? It does bask all the time- rarely isn't basking. It drinks fairly often (the healthy one rarely does); it sits in the food dish but is really slow and almost clumsy at eating, returns to bask but doesn't make it back to the food dish often. Sometimes the other one is in the food dish at the same time, and other times not. The healthy one likes to eat a bit, do some cage laps, and return.


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## OMary (Jan 23, 2016)

Okay, I will try separation. Their enclosure is somewhat divided into 2 parts, so I will confine them each to a part.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Jan 23, 2016)

OMary said:


> Is there anything I can do to improve her condition?


Though I have zero experience with herrmans tortoises, the best thing you can do to help things along is to setup a second enclosure and house them separately. Tortoises, by nature, are solitary critters and see others as a threat. One ends up the dominate one and the other the submissive one. The submissive one ends up with less quality food, a poor basking spot, and less than ideal conditions for life. Here on The Forum, we are very lucky to have a "Specie Specific" section were you can find all kinds of great information to help keep your two new family members thriving. 
Welcome to The Forum, I, for one, am happy you've found us. Ask questions and learn. We also love pictures!


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## Kori5 (Jan 24, 2016)

Please don't put him down to sleep. They are very tough animals, although it may not seem that way in your situation. Give him a chance in his own enclousure, give him supplements and I'm sure you'll see an improvement . Also, I know it is not recommended as they tend to get spoiled, but you can try hand feeding to encourage him to eat. Buy some Mazuri, too. It is a nice pellet food you can add to his diet a few days a week.


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## naturalman91 (Jan 24, 2016)

i'm not versed on the species but i know they're are no tortoise species that can be kept in pair's it almost sounds like one is being dominant and stressing the other out when you see them both basking in the same area they're competing for the best spot when you see them crammed in the same hide they're competing for that to they'll compete with everything and when reach sexual maturity one may start raping the other one which causes damage 

tort's unless housed in a big group with more females then males need to be separated into they're own enclosure so they can each be the king of they're own castle. once you separate it will take the tort time to realize it's on it's own and doesn't have to compete/worry about the other tort but i'd thrive better i'd say


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## Lyn W (Jan 24, 2016)

Glad you are going to separate. I hope he enjoys and does better in his own space.

This is a good example of what tort behaviour can be like in pairs.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...together-a-lesson-learned-the-hard-way.94114/


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## Pawciorc (Jan 24, 2016)

Is it possible that one is dominating another if they are hatchlings? I believe those behaviours develop during pubescence...


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## OMary (Jan 24, 2016)

That is what I have thought, too, Pawciorc. I did buy them knowing that I may very well separate as they mature or add to the group, whichever I felt I had more room for and depending on sex. I just don't see these 2 bullying at this age. They came from the breeder kept in a group. They arrived with one having less activity. I am not seeing one ending up with less quality food, or them huddled competing for spots. The basking area is so large for their enclosure that I could have 10 hatchlings huddled there. Both have opportunity in the food dish alone, and the "sick" one will eat flowers and more variety than the other one will- the healthy one is much pickier. 

So I will separate, but my hopes aren't high. I will not, however, feed Mazuri. It's crap. I do supplement with a little Repashy Grassland Grazer (she loves it) and do supplements (Miner-All Indoor and Supervite).


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## Kori5 (Jan 24, 2016)

Mazuri isn't crap. Many long term keepers/breeders have been using it sucesfully for years and they have beautiful and healthy animals.


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## dmmj (Jan 24, 2016)

I don't think its strict dominance that you see but at any age they just don't like company usually any other tortoise is seen as competition for everything. They have no lovey dovey feelings for others they don't miss their harchmates nothing like that.it can happen anytime from first week put together to five years later that's lt makes things easier on everybody in the long run.


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## OMary (Jan 24, 2016)

We can feed children McDonald's a few times a week with some vitamins/minerals and have "healthy" children too. These ingredients are crap for a weed eating tortoise: 
Ground Soybean Hulls, Ground Corn, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Ground Oats, Wheat Middlings,
Cane Molasses, Soybean Oil, Wheat Germ, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal (remaining ingredients are all added vitamins and minerals)


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 24, 2016)

I have also felt the same way about Mazuri. But sick torts who won't eat anything else will eat softened Mazuri. Eating Mazuri is better than not eating. Your little one is being bullied, whether you see it or not. Some is physical and some is mental. Please just take that advice from the experts on that. I have seen neo nates bullied to death, so we aren't fooling around with you.
I personally would treat the smallest one just like a new baby, hand feed it if it won't eat, wrap it in a warm towel and carry him around with you and talk to him and keep him awake. Soak him in Gerber's strained carrots daily. Put a light over the water to keep it warm. He'll get Vit A thru his cloaca and the soft membrane on his throat. I know that all sounds like crap, however, I have a reputation for saving babies, so that is what I personally would do. Others will tell you different. But holding them and giving them that attention makes a difference.
However, I am not a scientist, or breeder, I just do good with babies. Just my experience.

Oh, I would knock off all the supplements and just feed a good diet. A lot of tortoises won't eat their food if they sense something like calcium powder. They can get what they need from a good and varied diet.


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## OMary (Jan 24, 2016)

I will keep Mazuri in mind if she gets to the point that she won't eat anything else. 

I already said I am separating. Hmmm...I am not so sure about all that handling. I only handle them for daily baths right now.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 24, 2016)

You asked for advice, so I told you what I would do and that I am usually successful. Why have an animal you can't hold and bond with? Just to look at? Some, like my sister, don't handle her many chelonia, but anybody who met or read about my Sulcata Bob knows that socialization is necessary to make a decent tortoise. I have numerous torts, I mess with them daily. Here's one reason why, I have one who has sinus problems, I can stick a toothpick up his nares to clean it out. He holds his head perfectly still. Then I use a small syringe to suck out the mucus, he still holds still. Makes it easy for a Vet visit. Or for me to treat him. 
I was not trying to insult or disrespect you, but after all YOU asked for advice from experts, then you argue about it. I was just trying to help your tortoise. 
That's my advice, take it or don't.


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## OMary (Jan 24, 2016)

I am just worried about stressing her more with the handling, that's all.

I was only doing Miner-All every other day for extra calcium + D3. My vet told me to add a multi that also contains A, and to increase the frequency of Miner-All. I have been inconsistent about increasing the frequency of the Miner-All, because I do believe there can be "too much of a good thing". I added the Repashy Grassland Grazer to try to get her to eat more. She really does like it, and I am happy with the ingredients. Even then, though, she nibbles (and I don't put supplements on it). She just isn't a strong eater. I will pay more attention to her eating frequency with and without supplementation. I am nervous about not using calcium at all. Maybe the separation will help her. I need to pickup another UVB when the store opens today before I can separate. 

Maggie3fan, I see you are in Corvallis. I am in northern Idaho, and will be visiting Portland in mid-Feb. Do you have room to nurse another if I can't get her up and going? Seriously, do you? But not permanently. I am not looking to re-home.


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## Pearly (Jan 24, 2016)

Hello, I'll throw my few cents in. I have a pair of babies too. What can I say? I knew nothing about torts going into this! One of mine is smaller and would not eat, was sleeping all the time, etc. I like Maggie's approach. It has worked for me. At the time I didn't know about baby carrot soaks. I just kept trying different things with their food. Different food items, different textures. Mine are Redfoot so they are omnivores, I don't really know about your species. It took blending the greens with soaked (yes!) Mazuri in one of those little smoothie "bullet" blenders to get his interest going in food. 
I too didn't like the ingredients of the commercial pellets and wouldn't even buy them at the beginning. But the breeder had sent me a little sample of Mazuri along with the babies. In desperation I went ahead and soaked few pellets, and that little baby tort went for that mash like there's no tomorrow. I was also feeding 2-3xday and getting them out of their tank for outdoor excercise. He was always very active outdoors and in the tank would just sit in his hide. Like Maggie I also do "cangaroo" with all the babies no matter what species, warmth and feeling snuggli is what all babies like to feel safe. 
Others may debate on the "feeling" part but this is just my personal opinion that FEELS right for me. What can I tell you? I'm all about feelings long story short, this baby tort is thriving, more than tripled his weight, growing, active, eating like a champ, but to this day he will not touch some food items that his "sister" loves to eat. Just one of those picky ones. Mine still live together, but we have figured out great routine for them and getting ready to build big outdoor enclosure for them.

here's my picky eater, his name is Tucker.

here's his belly

here is example of one of the ways I tried to serve his food

and another 

and another, sometimes I'd mix everything together and other times put things in separate piles to see what he goes for and Mazuri is a sure hit every time



Kee trying, don't get discouraged and please keep us posted. Include pictures. Visuals tend to work really well. I hope my pics help you at least a little


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## OMary (Jan 24, 2016)

I love the pics Pearly! I will try hand feeding then too. She perks up with baths, which lead me to increasing humidity, which has helped some. She is very "awkward" eating. She will try to bite a piece of greens and miss, try again and miss, out of 5 tries, she succeeds maybe once. She has always been like this, and I thought it was her smaller size at first. Her absolute favorite thing is hibiscus flowers (but my plant only has so many blooms)! The other one takes huge chomps and misses maybe once every 5 times, whereas she has opposite rates of success. Let me see if I can post pics and what I have...okay, I have problems ever since Apple changed the way pics are kept. Let me post separately in a bit. I wish I could post video of her efforts. She just doesn't have the vitality, but she does get 100% for effort. 

Looks like one of yours is a cherry head, right? They are really pretty, and their food looks very interesting!  

Pearly, I am going to read your post again, and likely ask for more details on this pampering stuff and what I should be doing, and signs for if I am helping or just stressing her out more.


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## OMary (Jan 24, 2016)

Ironically my picker eater is the healthy one. He is just picky about what he devours!


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## naturalman91 (Jan 24, 2016)

just because you don't see the bullying dominate behavior doesn't mean it doesn't happen it's good that your separating them

mazuri isn't crap don't get me wrong it's not meant to be fed everyday and it depends on what formula you use but once or twice a month actually does some good


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## OMary (Jan 24, 2016)

The tunnel now has some bark over it too. The corner, which you can only see some pebbles, is where their water is, same plant saucer as food dish but a smaller one.

The yellow pot now contains a spider plant that gives them lots of hide area. I also have a hide log standing upright in the corner that was empty here.

This is a separate hide area that they rarely go in. It is where I am setting up the smaller tort today.

Outside view, just because it turned out so nice!  It now has plexi glass on the top making it a closed system.

This picture doesn't capture the size difference, and it is also greater now, I think. I need to get a scale. The one on top is the smaller one. The one on bottom is larger and feels like a rock when I lift him, whereas the other one feels like a feather.


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## Turtlepete (Jan 24, 2016)

Lots of misleading replies here guys. Tortoises are not strictly docile, big hermann's breeders raise these guys together in groups. Hate to tell you that at the hatchling age, if they were to be stressed by the "competition of others", 20 would be a whole lot worse than 2. Eventually they will definitely reach the age where aggression is a high possibility, but I'd bet it's not present at this age. Will he benefit from separation? Maybe, maybe not. I've had some tortoises (not hermanns) that did exponentially better in the presence of others. Sometimes seeing others eat encourages them to do the same.

What you definitely can do is improve on your enclosure a bit. Nice design, but wheres the plants? Spice it up a little bit. They need to feel comfortable, which requires cover and plenty of places to hide under, they do not like to be exposed. Some are more outgoing and not bothered by this exposure, some will never leave the hide because of it. Individuals vary vastly. Do also keep in mind they will grow at hugely varying rates, and just because one is growing faster and is heavier then the other doesn't necessarily mean the smaller one is sick.

Make sure to soak the sick one daily. Try to make it like a spa….Warm water in an enclosed container where the humidity spikes high. This will get them moving and active and does wonders to hydrate them. Attempt to feed him immediately after. You could try feeding him alone in a sterile container, some respond well to that. Try every different food item you could dream of.

Do not count out Mazuri. Some have had incredible results with Mazuri, actual results based on trial that discount speculation based on ingredients. It's not for every day food, but it's a damn good supplement. Try some soaked Mazuri, maybe he'll like it.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Jan 24, 2016)

Sorry but I simply must ask, is that sand substrate I'm seeing?


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## OMary (Jan 24, 2016)

The enclosure is when I first got them into it. I do have plants now- a huge spider plant providing lots of shade, and bark in areas. It looks much better now! 

The substrate is 50% topsoil and 50% play sand. I did recently add some coconut coir to help hold humidity better (not in pic). 

Humidity is ranging from 60-80%. Should I keep it more towards 80%? I worry about night time temps (low 70s using IR lamp) possibly causing an URI with the higher humidity. 

I am soaking her for 30 min daily, and she does eat right after. She is just not efficient at getting much into the mouth- kind of like that little kid who is at the table forever, but doesn't get much in. She is only pooping every 3 days (and it is rather small), and the other one poops lots daily, even though he spends much less time in the food dish. He feeds himself much better.


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## Turtlepete (Jan 24, 2016)

OMary said:


> The enclosure is when I first got them into it. I do have plants now- a huge spider plant providing lots of shade, and bark in areas. It looks much better now!
> 
> The substrate is 50% topsoil and 50% play sand. I did recently add some coconut coir to help hold humidity better (not in pic).
> 
> ...



Ah, that is good.

I can't speak on humidity, I have very little experience with arid species. I wouldn't let the temps go low at night though, if you can find a way to manage that. They are little, keep the temp's high at all times, there is little benefit from a night time drop in temperature at their age and I wouldn't allow the sick one to be exposed to lower temperatures.


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## OMary (Jan 24, 2016)

Should I maybe try soaking twice daily to increase eating? I do occasionally pick her up and place her in the food dish. She does eat some when I do this. Maybe I should chop the food up so she is more efficient?! But even with the Repashy Grassland made as a gel, she takes these tiny bites compared to the other tort...Maybe I will give Mazuri a try :-( If she likes it the way she goes for hibiscus, she just might get more in her.


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## OMary (Jan 24, 2016)

Thanks Turtlepete! I have been back and forth in my mind which is worse- lower night time temps or her possibly getting dehydrated sitting under the IR lamp at night. I can keep temps higher.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Jan 24, 2016)

You only really need to worry about uri with COLD and damp. Warm/hot and damp is no problem. Bounce over to the section of the Forum of specie specific and you will find many answers to questions you've not even thought of yet.


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## dmmj (Jan 24, 2016)

@HermanniChris mentioned something about them needing a lower night time temperature perhaps he can chime in on this


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 24, 2016)

I would be glad to foster your baby for while and see what I can do,if you can't get him going right....


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 24, 2016)

I would never tell you to do something that would stress out any animal. The best thing you can do for them is to socialize them. Hold'em, play with them, and give them an interesting life. I hold all my chelonia, it does not stress them out. That's an old wives tale


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## OMary (Jan 24, 2016)

Thanks maggie3fan! I really may take you up on that.


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## OMary (Jan 24, 2016)

@maggie3fan I hand fed her tonight, and she ate! I fed her a hibiscus petal (her favorite). I am going to hand feed her after her bath tomorrow to see if I can get more in her. She definitely ate that petal much faster than she normally eats on her own.


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## Jillianbk (Jan 24, 2016)

OMary said:


> Would it have been like this from the beginning though and at this age? It does bask all the time- rarely isn't basking. It drinks fairly often (the healthy one rarely does); it sits in the food dish but is really slow and almost clumsy at eating, returns to bask but doesn't make it back to the food dish often. Sometimes the other one is in the food dish at the same time, and other times not. The healthy one likes to eat a bit, do some cage laps, and return.


Try soaking in Hal's carrot baby food and water or an electrolyte solution. I Soaked 3 times a day for take ask 30 min sometimes longer.I had a baby Sulcata who sadly passed due to hatchling failure she lasted 4 weeks and if that's what it is there's nothing you can do.


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## Jillianbk (Jan 24, 2016)

Pearly said:


> Hello, I'll throw my few cents in. I have a pair of babies too. What can I say? I knew nothing about torts going into this! One of mine is smaller and would not eat, was sleeping all the time, etc. I like Maggie's approach. It has worked for me. At the time I didn't know about baby carrot soaks. I just kept trying different things with their food. Different food items, different textures. Mine are Redfoot so they are omnivores, I don't really know about your species. It took blending the greens with soaked (yes!) Mazuri in one of those little smoothie "bullet" blenders to get his interest going in food.
> I too didn't like the ingredients of the commercial pellets and wouldn't even buy them at the beginning. But the breeder had sent me a little sample of Mazuri along with the babies. In desperation I went ahead and soaked few pellets, and that little baby tort went for that mash like there's no tomorrow. I was also feeding 2-3xday and getting them out of their tank for outdoor excercise. He was always very active outdoors and in the tank would just sit in his hide. Like Maggie I also do "cangaroo" with all the babies no matter what species, warmth and feeling snuggli is what all babies like to feel safe.
> Others may debate on the "feeling" part but this is just my personal opinion that FEELS right for me. What can I tell you? I'm all about feelings long story short, this baby tort is thriving, more than tripled his weight, growing, active, eating like a champ, but to this day he will not touch some food items that his "sister" loves to eat. Just one of those picky ones. Mine still live together, but we have figured out great routine for them and getting ready to build big outdoor enclosure for them.
> View attachment 163327
> ...


How do you keep your humidity up?


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## Pearly (Jan 24, 2016)

OMary said:


> I love the pics Pearly! I will try hand feeding then too. She perks up with baths, which lead me to increasing humidity, which has helped some. She is very "awkward" eating. She will try to bite a piece of greens and miss, try again and miss, out of 5 tries, she succeeds maybe once. She has always been like this, and I thought it was her smaller size at first. Her absolute favorite thing is hibiscus flowers (but my plant only has so many blooms)! The other one takes huge chomps and misses maybe once every 5 times, whereas she has opposite rates of success. Let me see if I can post pics and what I have...okay, I have problems ever since Apple changed the way pics are kept. Let me post separately in a bit. I wish I could post video of her efforts. She just doesn't have the vitality, but she does get 100% for effort.
> 
> Looks like one of yours is a cherry head, right? They are really pretty, and their food looks very interesting!
> 
> Pearly, I am going to read your post again, and likely ask for more details on this pampering stuff and what I should be doing, and signs for if I am helping or just stressing her out more.


The only WRONG question is one that you never ask ask away, we all try to help here to the best of our ability. And yes, one of mine is a Cherryhead, he's the one who gave me so much worry in first couple of months. As you can see he's doing really well now. He did that "failing attempt to bite" too and still does at times that's why I started giving him almost puree consistency, just to reduce his energy consumption at managing food even before the point of a swallow. To this day I still offer varied consistency, from whole leaves, to finely chopped salad mix, all the way to puree, this way I'm absolutely confident that when he is hungry he can always get his nourishment. It's important to learn what their favorites are. I often put things in separate little piles and watch them eat. This way we can get them to eat what's good for them when it's mixed with their favorites.


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## Pearly (Jan 24, 2016)

Jillianbk said:


> How do you keep your humidity up?


I have a Reptifogger and love that thing! Run it for about 10-15 minutes at breakfast time every day. Plus live plants, moss, water dish underneath the lamp... and closed system. It's always humid in there


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## Pearly (Jan 24, 2016)

OMary said:


> View attachment 163341
> The tunnel now has some bark over it too. The corner, which you can only see some pebbles, is where their water is, same plant saucer as food dish but a smaller one.
> View attachment 163342
> The yellow pot now contains a spider plant that gives them lots of hide area. I also have a hide log standing upright in the corner that was empty here.
> ...


Omg! Your babies are ADORABLE!!!! If it's same thing my baby did, I wouldn't bother giving her whole leaves, she can't manage it. Try the babyfood carrot soaks for her and, try pureeing her food and I'd give in and try little Mazuri. Just few pellets. Soak them in warm water or juice, mash up and try giving little of it by itself and little of it mixed with the best "power green" that's on your tort's diet list. I'm not familiar with it, so can't advise more on the food items. I have also used organic baby food veggies, some fruits and meats for my little babies. They loved those every time. If there is a vegetable that your tort can eat, maybe try that, just to get her interest. I think part of the problem with mine was that he was too young to be shipped out. He still had very prominent egg tooth and fresh yolk scar on his belly. I'm telling you all this because yours maybe also younger than the bigger one. Or... she indeed is having hard time due to how she was hatched and started to begin with. You never know. Anyway, give her a chance, don't give up on her, keep trying till you find what works for she and you. Who knows, she may become your best pet ever


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## Pearly (Jan 25, 2016)

Pearly said:


> I have a Reptifogger and love that thing! Run it for about 10-15 minutes at breakfast time every day. Plus live plants, moss, water dish underneath the lamp... and closed system. It's always humid in there


One more thing, my substrate probably has a lot to do with it as well, I keep nice thick layer of bioactive substrata. That and covered top that keeps the heat/humidity in


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## adptorts (May 10, 2016)

Just finished reading through your feed. There is some really great advice in there. I was wondering how it's going with your little tortoise? Were you able to get it eating better and acting stronger?


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## Markw84 (May 10, 2016)

OMary said:


> We can feed children McDonald's a few times a week with some vitamins/minerals and have "healthy" children too. These ingredients are crap for a weed eating tortoise:
> Ground Soybean Hulls, Ground Corn, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Ground Oats, Wheat Middlings,
> Cane Molasses, Soybean Oil, Wheat Germ, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal (remaining ingredients are all added vitamins and minerals)


The bulk of the ingredients is made up of ground soybean hulls. One of the best sources of high fiber, yet good calcium to phosphorus ratio you can find...
36% crude fiber, 76% digestible, 0.45% calcium, 0.16% phosphorus. Only 10% protein, and 2% fat. Used in the cattle business as one of the best alternatives to hay! If you look at timothy hay... 32% fiber, 0.32% calcium, 0.21% phosphorus. 8% protein and 1.5% fat. Not as good a Calcium to phosphorus ratio as the soybean hulls.

I don't see why we wouldn't want to feed our tortoises Mazuri!


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## OMary (May 11, 2016)

@adptorts No, she died about a month or so ago. :-(


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## adptorts (May 11, 2016)

Oh no. I'm so sorry. At least you were able to get lots of help here and you gave her a chance. Best of luck with all your future tortoises.


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## spud's_mum (May 11, 2016)

OMary said:


> @adptorts No, she died about a month or so ago. :-(


I'm so sorry for your loss


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## Pearly (May 11, 2016)

I am so sorry to hear that


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