# greek or hermann



## HtVic (Feb 10, 2012)

the reptile store called me today, said Greek and Hermann will be in stock the end of Feb.
It is time for me to decide which one to get.
I read so many care sheet, books, watched ton of videos, picture, they both similar in appearance, some in living condition.
but I like the one with a bright shell, beautiful color pattern when they fully grow. they all look the same at baby time. 

they didn''t tell what species of both of them, but I am guessing the most common species.


----------



## Terry Allan Hall (Feb 10, 2012)

HtVic said:


> the reptile store called me today, said Greek and Hermann will be in stock the end of Feb.
> It is time for me to decide which one to get.
> I read so many care sheet, books, watched ton of videos, picture, they both similar in appearance, some in living condition.
> but I like the one with a bright shell, beautiful color pattern when they fully grow. they all look the same at baby time.
> ...



Likeliest Herrmann's will be the Eastern - THE perfect tortoise!

Likeliest Greek will be probably the Iberian, a good choice, but only if you can't get a healthy Hermann's...

No, I'm not prejudiced...


----------



## HtVic (Feb 10, 2012)

some of shell of Hermann are dark, some of them are not
same as greek


----------



## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 11, 2012)

Ibera Greeks, Hermanns, and Russians all make good pet tortoises because they are Eurasian in origin, and do well in North America because they are cold-tolerant and can hibernate. If you can't decide between the Ibera and the Hermann, though, my recommendation would be to take climate into consideration. What part of the country do you live in? Is it a drier or more humid state?

Hermanns come from the more wooded areas of the Mediterranean basin, which are relatively humid. Iberas, on the other hand, come from scrubbier habitats, which are a bit drier. Russians come from grasslands and deserts, which are drier still. Although there is some overlap in the humidity levels these species tolerate, I would get the one whose homeland humidity most closely matches yours.

So, if you live in a more humid state I would get a Hermann tortoise, and if you live in a drier state, I would get an Ibera Greek tortoise.


----------



## tortuga_please (Feb 11, 2012)

I agree with the climate recommendation. It just makes life a lot easier easier if your tort is comfortable in your area; you don't constantly have to maintain an enclosure and they can go outside. Just my 2 cents


----------



## HtVic (Feb 11, 2012)

what about indian star? are they suppose to be small too
I live in Canada by the way


----------



## Terry Allan Hall (Feb 11, 2012)

HtVic said:


> what about indian star? are they suppose to be small too
> I live in Canada by the way



Very pretty, very pricy...a bit delicate for newbies.


----------



## HtVic (Feb 11, 2012)

greek and hermann
which one has brighter shell


----------



## Terry Allan Hall (Feb 11, 2012)

HtVic said:


> greek and hermann
> which one has brighter shell



If you're wanting a brighter shell, a Golden Greek might suit you...


----------



## HtVic (Feb 11, 2012)

not all in one color, maybe mix some other color..lol
actually, i would like to see some most common species of greek and hermann picture


----------



## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 11, 2012)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> HtVic said:
> 
> 
> > greek and hermann
> ...



Golden Greeks are beautiful, but aren't they more delicate than their Ibera Greek cousins from farther north? If I lived in Canada, I would not get a Golden Greek.


----------



## Terry Allan Hall (Feb 12, 2012)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> Terry Allan Hall said:
> 
> 
> > HtVic said:
> ...



Never kept a Golden Greek, so can't say...thought a "Golden" was simply a color phase for at least a few subspecies of Testudo graeca, as is a "Black " Greek...







And, HtVic, "Goldens" aren't always sas solid gold (in color) as the 1st pic...


----------



## cherylim (Feb 12, 2012)

HtVic said:


> not all in one color, maybe mix some other color..lol
> actually, i would like to see some most common species of greek and hermann picture



Emrys is an Eastern Hermann's, and has quite a light shell compared to most available here in the UK. I, too, like the light shells. I had a choice between four Western Hermann's (with darker shells) and four Eastern Hermann's (Emrys was much lighter than his siblings). This is his colouring:


----------



## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 12, 2012)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> Never kept a Golden Greek, so can't say...thought a "Golden" was simply a color phase for at least a few subspecies of Testudo graeca, as is a "Black " Greek...
> 
> And, HtVic, "Goldens" aren't always sas solid gold (in color) as the 1st pic...



It's true that there is still uncertainty about how color phase is inherited in _Testudo graeca_. However, I think that the dark color phase arises only in _Testudo graeca ibera_, which comes from countries like Turkey, Iran, etc. Darker individuals seems to come from higher, colder altitudes, where having a darker color is adaptive and helps them absorb heat from the sun. I don't know if the "all-black" phenotype necessarily comes only from high-altitude populations, or if it can appear in individuals from low-altitude populations as well. Nevertheless, I think it is found only in Ibera Greeks.

As for Golden Greeks, it is my understanding that they occur only in _Testudo graeca terrestris_, which is a southern subspecies found in the Levant (Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria) that does not have the cold-tolerance of Ibera Greeks.

Therefore, I think that if a person lives in a northern climate and wants a Greek tortoise, he should not get a Golden Greek, because they are less robust than Ibera Greeks, and more likely to get sick outside Mediterranean climates.


----------



## HtVic (Feb 12, 2012)

If you're wanting a brighter shell, a Golden Greek might suit you...[/quote]

Golden Greeks are beautiful, but aren't they more delicate than their Ibera Greek cousins from farther north? If I lived in Canada, I would not get a Golden Greek.
[/quote]

Never kept a Golden Greek, so can't say...thought a "Golden" was simply a color phase for at least a few subspecies of Testudo graeca, as is a "Black " Greek...







And, HtVic, "Goldens" aren't always sas solid gold (in color) as the 1st pic...





[/quote]

lol...for the first thought, I was going to like, look at all the pineapple




cherylim said:


> HtVic said:
> 
> 
> > not all in one color, maybe mix some other color..lol
> ...



she is so gorgeous, that's the shell i like, but i thought eastern Hermann their shell suppose to be darker.
I think Emrys is one outstanding tort


----------



## Terry Allan Hall (Feb 12, 2012)

Here is a recent pic of my four...some variation in coloring:


----------



## lauren43201 (Feb 12, 2012)

HtVic said:


> the reptile store called me today, said Greek and Hermann will be in stock the end of Feb.
> It is time for me to decide which one to get.
> I read so many care sheet, books, watched ton of videos, picture, they both similar in appearance, some in living condition.
> but I like the one with a bright shell, beautiful color pattern when they fully grow. they all look the same at baby time.
> ...



Both are a really good beginner species, but hermanns are just amazing. They have wonderful personalities and are just altogether really great. In the beginning i was going to get a hermann, but in the end i ended up buying a russian, and i absolutely love him to death. He has a great personality, so i really recommend getting a russian. If you only are looking between a greek and a hermann, then i say get a hermann! Though both are great! ;D


----------



## cherylim (Feb 12, 2012)

HtVic said:


> she is so gorgeous, that's the shell i like, but i thought eastern Hermann their shell suppose to be darker.
> I think Emrys is one outstanding tort



Thank you. 






As I said, typically the Hermann's here are quite a bit darker than Emrys - these were Emrys' siblings and tank-mates.






But obviously tortoises with his colouring will be out there. I specifically think they're more common with a few generations at least of captive breeding. Emrys has an abnormality in the number of vertebral scutes, too, which is a signifier that there may have been some inbreeding going on that caused my little oddball.

And in contrast, Western Hermann's which I'm personally not as keen on:


----------



## HtVic (Feb 12, 2012)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> Here is a recent pic of my four...some variation in coloring:



they are really enjoying


do greek and hermann hibernate?


----------



## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 12, 2012)

HtVic said:


> do greek and hermann hibernate?



Ibera Greeks, Hermanns, and Russians can all brumate for several months during wintertime. Marginateds, Egyptians, and southern Greeks (including Golden Greeks) come from hotter climates, so although they can go through short dormant periods, they do not brumate through cold winters the way their northern cousins do. All _Testudo_ species, however, can aestivate in the summer when the weather gets too hot.


----------



## HtVic (Feb 12, 2012)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> HtVic said:
> 
> 
> > do greek and hermann hibernate?
> ...



I live in Canada, right now is winter time until March before spring, if I get a Hermann hatchling now, should I let it brumate, or I have to wait until next winter? 



cherylim said:


> HtVic said:
> 
> 
> > she is so gorgeous, that's the shell i like, but i thought eastern Hermann their shell suppose to be darker.
> ...



yea it could be, I think I will go for hermann


----------



## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 12, 2012)

HtVic said:


> I live in Canada, right now is winter time until March before spring, if I get a Hermann hatchling now, should I let it brumate, or I have to wait until next winter?



Although hatchlings are technically capable of brumation, and do so naturally in the wild, it is more dangerous for them. Wild hibernating tortoises do experience some mortality during the wintertime, probably because some of them are not in good enough condition, and so they don't make it through. That is why tortoise keepers do not hibernate their baby tortoises. It's also a good idea not to hibernate tortoises that you have just acquired, regardless of age, just in case there is something wrong you are not aware of.

If you get a tortoise right now - whether baby or adult - in mid-February, do not let it hibernate this year. Wait until November at the earliest, or even until the following winter if need be, to make sure it is healthy enough. Brumation is a natural part of the annual cycle for Hermann, Ibera Greek, and Russian tortoises, but it is not for individuals who are very young, very old, or have an illness. Kind of like jogging for us.


----------



## Bow (Feb 12, 2012)

HtVic said:


> the reptile store called me today, said Greek and Hermann will be in stock the end of Feb.
> It is time for me to decide which one to get.
> I read so many care sheet, books, watched ton of videos, picture, they both similar in appearance, some in living condition.
> but I like the one with a bright shell, beautiful color pattern when they fully grow. they all look the same at baby time.
> ...



I live in Canada too! I have a hermann's tortoise. Walter is very beautiful and has the character to match.






Out of curiosity, which reptile store did you find that would order them? I had the devil of a time finding any tortoises when I started looking.


----------



## HtVic (Feb 12, 2012)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> HtVic said:
> 
> 
> > I live in Canada, right now is winter time until March before spring, if I get a Hermann hatchling now, should I let it brumate, or I have to wait until next winter?
> ...



okay, thanks so much for the info, is there any signs that tort willing to hibernate?



Bow said:


> HtVic said:
> 
> 
> > the reptile store called me today, said Greek and Hermann will be in stock the end of Feb.
> ...



depend on which city you live in, I live in Toronto, so there are very few pet stores and reptile stores that willing to order for me, in my case, my name was on the waiting list, when they have tortoise in stock, they just contacted me.


----------



## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 13, 2012)

HtVic said:


> okay, thanks so much for the info, is there any signs that tort willing to hibernate?



Yes, turtles that want to hibernate will not feed and will try to stay buried all the time. If you bring them out forcefully, they might - _might_ - feed a little and stay out for a while, but soon they will be back under again, and won't come out. If you observe that, it means your turtle wants to hibernate. If it's doing that at room temperature, though, he will be unable to do so, because he will burn through his fat reserves too quickly and won't last through the whole winter. They need the colder temperatures to slow down their metabolism, and make their fat reserves last. If you observe this behavior, the thing to do is turn off the enclosure's heater(s), let the turtle fast for at least 2-3 weeks so that his gut is emptied, and then let him brumate in a humid substrate in a refrigerator set to 40*F +/- 2*F. If his gut is not emptied, the undigested food will rot, and could eventually kill the turtle.

Although Ibera Greeks, Hermanns, and Russians all hibernate from November to March (4-5 months) in the wild, Russians can probably hibernate even longer (up to 6 months). According to Andy C. Highfield of the Tortoise Trust, though, Ibera Greeks and Hermanns should not be hibernated longer than 3 months in captivity, and Russians no longer than 5 months at the outside.

Remember, in captivity a tortoise might not want to hibernate. If artificial lighting is strong enough, if indoor temperatures are high enough (and maybe humid enough, too), then he might still feel like it's "summertime," and be perfectly willing to stay awake. If so, that's fine. Box turtles, Hermanns, and Ibera Greeks seem a lot more willing to do this than Russian tortoises, probably because they come from environments where it is possible to be active for at least part of the winter, in at least part of their range. Not so for Russians, because Central Asian winters are harsher, and necessitate not only inactivity, but burrowing as well.

There is lots of debate as to whether it's healthier for turtles to brumate or not. In my view, hibernation does appear to be healthier, if no other reason than it appears to have bearing on reproduction. I found that my box turtles felt like mating if I let them hibernate, but did not if I overwintered them. I have yet to breed my Russians (they are still too young), but I have read that this applies to _Testudo_ species, too. Basically, it's thought that letting the body rest during hibernation ramps up their hormones in the springtime and makes it more likely that they will not only mate, but also actually conceive. Some authors think that letting northern species hibernate is also better for the liver and kidneys, and claim that individuals that are allowed to hibernate tend to live longer.

So, in my view, a healthy box turtle or tortoise should be allowed to hibernate if at all possible. Skipping a year or two is probably fine, but in the long run, I suspect it's better to let them do what comes naturally. There are others who disagree, and some people here on TFO have had success not hibernating their tortoises, even with breeding. So, it depends.

Sometimes, though, a turtle just really wants to hibernate. It seems that boxies, Hermanns, and Ibera Greeks can be "persuaded" to stay awake during winter, perhaps becoming a bit less active and eating less, but nevertheless not brumating. Seems like Russian tortoises, though, are much more likely to try and hibernate, even at room temperature, unless their enclosure really has a lot of light, ambient temperatures are really warm, and perhaps the air is not as dry. In my case, my Russians really wanted to hibernate. Despite living indoors, they still picked up on shortening natural day length, and perhaps indoor temperatures cooled off a bit, too. The air probably got drier as well. They stayed under for all of October, unless I dug them up, in which case they soon burrowed again. So, in November I put them in the fridge and let them hibernate. I will be taking them back out again in April (5 months). If I had Hermanns or Ibera Greeks, I probably would have already taken them out this month (February - 3 months).


----------



## HtVic (Feb 13, 2012)

thanks, that's a great tip, but sometimes, its hard to adjust.
those signs are similar when they are about to be sick.
also, "let him brumate in a humid substrate in a refrigerator set to 40*F +/- 2*F"
can I bring him outside of the balcony, because winter time is cold in Canada, even lower, can it survive?

"If artificial lighting is strong enough, if indoor temperatures are high enough (and maybe humid enough, too), then he might still feel like it's "summertime," and be perfectly willing to stay awake. If so, that's fine." according to this, if so, do we just break the ecology cycle, because in the nature, they are suppose to be hibernate at this point. should we like force them to hibernate?

ok never mind, i got the answer from the end, ignore this...lol

thanks so much for answering with your own experience...


----------

