# Are Leopard Tortoises Shy?



## Tom (Jun 21, 2011)

This has been bugging me for a while. Its just a general question. This is not to say that every single leopard that has ever existed is shy. I've seen lots of them that were fairly outgoing and unafraid. Generally, however, I find they tend to be a bit reclusive and uninterested in interaction. I'm not talking about somebodies single personal pet that was hand fed every day and raised in the backyard. I'm talking about the species in general. Feel free to make a distinction between the two subspecies that are available here in the US, if you wish. I see a HUGE difference between the two. With all the mixing of the types that have been imported in the past, I wonder how many "friendly" babcocki are actually hybrids. I've seen a number of cases of known hybrids that were very friendly. When I hear about very large or very friendly babcocki, I always wonder if there might be some pp mixed in there somewhere. Really the only way to know for sure is to know the origin of the parents. This is only rarely possible.


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## Az tortoise compound (Jun 21, 2011)

Tom said:


> This has been bugging me for a while. Its just a general question. This is not to say that every single leopard that has ever existed is shy. I've seen lots of them that were fairly outgoing and unafraid. Generally, however, I find they tend to be a bit reclusive and uninterested in interaction. I'm not talking about somebodies single personal pet that was hand fed every day and raised in the backyard. I'm talking about the species in general. Feel free to make a distinction between the two subspecies that are available here in the US, if you wish. I see a HUGE difference between the two. With all the mixing of the types that have been imported in the past, I wonder how many "friendly" babcocki are actually hybrids. I've seen a number of cases of known hybrids that were very friendly. When I hear about very large or very friendly babcocki, I always wonder if there might be some pp mixed in there somewhere. Really the only way to know for sure is to know the origin of the parents. This is only rarely possible.


Tom,
In my opinion, you are perpetuating a myth. I can understand you having that opinion but, you blanket the species too often.
Maybe, it's the fact you are around hatchlings more so than adults? It is all really individual personality in the end.


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## Tom (Jun 22, 2011)

Az tortoise compound said:


> Tom,
> In my opinion, you are perpetuating a myth. I can understand you having that opinion but, you blanket the species too often.
> Maybe, it's the fact you are around hatchlings more so than adults? It is all really individual personality in the end.



Everyone is entitled to their opinion Mick. And that's why this thread is in the debatable section. Everyone should feel free to share theirs. I base my opinion on 20 years of seeing, keeping and experiencing leopards of all age groups in many situations ranging from a single backyard pet, to major breeding operations to major import/wholesale companies. I also happen to share this opinion with lots of people who are much more experienced than me. I agree with you that they each have their own personality, but I don't understand the problem with generalizations. I once had not one, but TWO, scrub pythons that were as tame as any common Boa constrictor. It does not change the fact that most of the time scrubs are pretty nasty and bitey. So it didn't bother me when somebody would say that scrubs are horrible nasty snakes. Mine weren't. Same with the leopards. I know of several very friendly and outgoing leopards right here on the forum, but MOST of them are not that way. So I honestly don't think its a myth. It is what I have personally observed. Just to make sure that I'm not crazy or somehow deluding myself, I've been emailing and phoning the people on the planet who I know that know the most about leopards and have the most experience with them. I'm talking about long term breeders, wholesalers, keepers, importers, etc. People that like me have had their hands on leopards for 20 years or more. Lots of leopards. Hundreds or thousands in some cases. So far I have asked 7 people. Five have answered me as of right now and all five said, "Yes." to the question: "Are leopard torts generally a shy species?" Or something very similar. Three of the five volunteered on their own that the pp are not generally shy at all, and are totally different than the babcocki. I did not bring up the subspecies differentiations. They did.

To elaborate on the whole "bugging" me thing. What I mean is that I know what I know. The sky is blue, the sea is wet, and leopard tortoises are shy. I can't understand the resistance to this idea. There are exceptions to all three things I listed above, but most of the time the sky is blue here. It might be gray on the rare rainy day, but its blue again the next day. I don't have any problem with someone saying "The sky is blue.", even though technically it is NOT all blue every single day.


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## onarock (Jun 22, 2011)

I just asked 20 people. All of them in the reptile business for 20+ years. Most of them in Socal. and 15 said it depends on the animal. What I didnt ask, is those who import. Im not asking people who open boxes of tortoises put them in large crates and let people sort through them (L.A. Reptile, Cal Zoo) I know the owners of both of those Large importers and I got news for ya'... they dont know alot about reptiles and/or tortoises. They buy and sell, thats it. I'm a breeder and so is Mick.... what say you? You say youve had your hands on them for 20 years. Where are your long term adults? Where are your hatchlings? And not the ones someone left for you to watch. Why is it when I read your early posts, you make no mention of any of this, and about a year ago you were on here looking for someone that breeds gpp and now your a leopard expert that has had his hands on hundreds or even thousands. I dont think its right that for you to rant like that in responce to Micks post and embelish your experience. All anyone has to do is read your early posts. Why is that you need to set yourself apart from the board. Sorry that none of us are worthy. Im starting to wonder why you started this thread to begin with. If someone differs in opinion you just dismiss them and start talking about "people on the planet that you know, know the most about leopards." I would like to know who these people are... chances are I might already know them. You just wrote me an hour ago stating that your opinion is just as valid as mine, I beg to differ. So what makes these experts of yours opinion more valid than mine or Micks. Mick doesnt share his experience alot here on TFO, but I can tell you this, I have spoke to him on the phone a few times and the guy knows what hes talking about. What does it take? 20+ years of keeping and producing, you hold all of us to higher standard than you hold yourself. You write stuff to John (squamata) like "there are 3-4 of us working on those questions right now, we should have some answers for you in a couple months" What? 


All tortoises should be judged on a case by case basis. I just sent 18 gpb across the country. Ask any of those who got them how shy they are. I think some posted about that very thing already. I have about 33 here with more popping out EVERY day. To be honest, I have not 1 shy gpb hatchling. Ah, but what do I know? I just SWIM in leopard tortoises year after year. How about you?


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## John (Jun 22, 2011)

Well, Tom I don't have the experience with leopards that Paul and Mick do, but I do have 19 hatchlings right now, Are they shy, NO, Are they some times instinctivly protective? Yes, Meaning they will hide at first site of me the giant looking into the pen but quickly go on with thier business, of the 19 only my suspected hybrid hisses and shells in when picked up, The animals I recieved from Paul all were eating from my hand 4-6 hours after they came out of the box, they are not coddled pets, just healthy well started, well cared for animals. Maybe yours are shy because everytime they see you ,you are blitzing them with a spray bottle like some form of water torture, where as when my animals see me they are being hand cared for in some way, feeding, soaking, being cleaned and what not. Tom I have to say I find it puzzling, your claim of experience, It just does not add up, In your intro thread in jan 2010 there is a mention of a box turtle and four sulcatas and then a mere 7 months later you claim up to 30 years of experience working with leopards, I mean I can understand resume' fluffing to a degree but.........


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## Greg T (Jun 22, 2011)

I'll base my answer on my 3 leos and say they do appear to be more shy than other torts. However, I do think the shyness goes away once they feel comfortable around the people they know. Mine will tend to go away when strangers are present, but they will come to me and my kids when we're out in the yard, probably just expecting food though.


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## Neal (Jun 22, 2011)

I would have liked a more subjective option, instead of two "yes" answers. I did not want to say yes or no, I wanted to say as always that each tortoise is different, so I think this poll may only show you want you expect it will show you. But, who are the people responding to this poll? People who have had hands on experience with leopards? That would help make it more valid I think if only the people who have leopards responded.

I'm sorry Tom, with all due respect, can't you see from this thread alone that there are quite a few people saying that leopard tortoises DO have personality, and dissagree with your generalities of them being shy? Three of the four of us who have said so are breeders, with more than 2 adults, and a number of hatchlings, and years of experience. Not to mention all of the other comments saying the same things on other threads right here on this forum. I am not seeing how the opinions of people who have been doing things "wrong" for so many years have any more credibility than those who are doing things "right" for all to see on this forum.


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## Yvonne G (Jun 22, 2011)

At one time I had an adult group of 2.4 babcock. I had a hard time selling the babies, so I adopted out the males and kept 2 females. I also kept the first hatchling from the group, turned out to be male and is now 4 or 5 years old. Speaking from MY experience of appx. 8 years with this group of babcock tortoises, yes, they are shy.

If my tortoises saw me they all hunkered down into their shells. The only time I ever got to see them moving or eating was if I sneaked up on them and peaked around the corner. Its still the same way now, with the smaller group that I have.

Can I speak to the species as a whole? No, but I really never thought that my group was different from the species. I just assumed they were all the same.


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## wildponey21 (Jun 22, 2011)

I cut the nails on a leo that was 10 years old and he was vary out going. he walk all the room and let rub his head and pet his legs. he was very nice and like all love.


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## Tom (Jun 22, 2011)

Paul, I've told you repeatedly privately, and I'll now tell you publicly. Leave me alone. I'm not interested in any interaction with you. You will find fault with anything I say, and frankly I've had enough of your your insults, harassment and lies.

John, glad to hear about your experience with Paul's hatchlings. That is the purpose of this thread. As far as embellishment goes, nothing has changed. I did not list every single chelonian I had ever worked with for my entire life in my intro thread. I've said it before and I'll repeat here since you are clearly questioning whether I'm telling the truth. I got my first box turtle in 1979. I started working in a pet store in 1986. We had lots of reptiles, including tortoises. Since that time I have worked with tortoises in some capacity or other, continuously and so do a lot of the people that I interact with daily. I saw the first hatchling leopard that I can clearly remember in 1991 and have been working with them and around them since then. I don't have adults for two reasons. 1. Their personalities were very shy. This was especially apparent when my sulcatas were marching around in the enclosure right next to them. 2. I could not grow one even remotely smooth due to ignorance. This was extremely frustrating for me since I was reading all the books, magazines and following all the "expert" advice. So for a lot years I just maintained my little herd of small pyramided sulcatas. Doesn't mean I never saw another leopard. I see other people's all the time. I was not interested in keeping my own again until I finally found a source for true Gpp, which, in my opinion, have a very different personality than the Gpb. So no embellishment. Just facts, despite what my self-appointed arch-nemesis would like you to believe.

Yes Neal, I CAN see that. I've heard it from you and several others here on the forum for some time now. I just don't see it myself in person. That is the purpose of the poll and the thread. To see how lots and lots of people feel about this. I too would hope someone with little or no leopard experience would not chime in here, but I think some of that is unavoidable on a public forum. In my own experience, everyone I have asked says yes they are shy. But here on the forum, it seems some people think they are not, and some, like you and Mick see it as an individual thing. I'm trying to learn, as usual, from the vast wealth of knowledge here on the forum. That is why I say, and honestly mean, thank you to you, Mick, Yvonne, Greg and anyone else who will chime in and share their experience without the personal attacks and insults.


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## yagyujubei (Jun 22, 2011)

I answered maybe, because I can only speak from my experience. My big spp female is very friendly, and will come over to me when she sees me, and when I pick her up, she struggles rather than closes up. My biggest babcocki female (13")is also very personable. At the sound of my voice, she will always turn her head to look, and will usually come over to me. I will have to say that they are equally friendly towards me. My 11" female and 10" male babcocki are a little more reserved. The 6" babcocki is indifferent to me. None of my little spp would I call shy. I think that with much human interaction, they become less cautious of humans. Are they more shy than box turtles? Without a doubt. Are they a "shy species" I can't say.


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## Yvonne G (Jun 22, 2011)

Just another anecdote for the subject:

Several years ago my club here in Fresno went on a field trip up to the Bay Area to visit Ginger Wilfong. She and her husband operate the Bay Area Turtle & Tortoise Rescue in Hayward, CA.

Ginger keeps a wide variety of turtles and tortoises including some adult sulcata, Manouria, russians, box turtles, different kinds of water turtles and more that I can't remember.

We were a group of about 20 people. Each species of tortoise was in its own habitat and we were allowed to step over the fences and see and touch. But, there was a path or walkway between the habitats.

Ginger had a very large male leopard tortoise named George who had the run of the property. He was the largest leopard I've ever seen, but I'm only guessing at his weight of about 35 or 40lbs. George followed our group of people wherever we went. And when we sat down for "tea," he was right there at our feet pestering us for a scritch or tidbit of food. 

George was the MOST outgoing tortoise I've ever seen...of any species.


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## Neal (Jun 22, 2011)

Great story Yvonne, I would really like to see George.

It seems a lot of what we see with tortoise personality is the tortoises associating people with food, so once that happens they will be more eager to approach a human and appear more friendly. 

Perhaps this is worthy of an experiment...to see if an initally shy tortoise will warm up to people if it is primarily hand fed.


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## ChiKat (Jun 22, 2011)

Neal said:


> It seems a lot of what we see with tortoise personality is the tortoises associating people with food, so once that happens they will be more eager to approach a human and appear more friendly.



Great point. My Russian seems incredibly fearless and I have always considered him to be "outgoing" because he runs towards me when he sees me. But I guarantee he is just looking for food 

People might not consider their Leopards to be shy, but when compared to crazy, attention-seeking Sulcatas, Leopards might seem more reserved.
Maybe Leopards are just more polite


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## Neal (Jun 22, 2011)

ChiKat said:


> People might not consider their Leopards to be shy, but when compared to crazy, attention-seeking Sulcatas, Leopards might seem more reserved.
> Maybe Leopards are just more polite



lol, good point. I think personality is a pretty complex thing, and not just cut and dry - they have it or they don't - kinda thing.


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## Fernando (Jun 22, 2011)

Tom said:


> I too would hope someone with little or no leopard experience would not chime in here, but I think some of that is unavoidable on a public forum.





ChiKat said:


> Neal said:
> 
> 
> > It seems a lot of what we see with tortoise personality is the tortoises associating people with food, so once that happens they will be more eager to approach a human and appear more friendly.
> ...





Neal said:


> ChiKat said:
> 
> 
> > People might not consider their Leopards to be shy, but when compared to crazy, attention-seeking Sulcatas, Leopards might seem more reserved.
> ...



*I don't really chime in on debates. But, I think that it's the unbiased opinions of others, that we learn a lot from. I like that answer Katie.*


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## onarock (Jun 22, 2011)

Okay guys, this may be a debate thread, but the debate is about the leopards, not each other. From this thread on, I will be deleting things. Let's go back to topic.


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## Neal (Jun 22, 2011)

Everybody read this post and take it to heart. Thanks for wriitng it too!

...Jacqui

Alright, well I think we just need to all step back and remember what we are doing here. 

We're here for our tortoises, to help better understand them from the experiences of others. We all have strong opinions and egos (myself included), but we gotta seperate the emotion from the opinion otherwise we get upset like what's going on here. Really, what does any of these personal issues matter in the long run?

I hate to see Paul, John, Tom, or anyone banned or not contribute on this forum anymore. I think this community would suffer greatly if that were to happen. I am happy to see the pride of people on this forum, I wonder what we could accomplish here if we set that asside and worked with each other.

(sorry to be off topic, but I think the above was appropriate here)


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## Tom (Jun 22, 2011)

Very mature of you Neal and I agree. Jacqui deleting away again...


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## Edna (Jun 22, 2011)

Very limited experience here - 2 Gpp that are now 10 months old. To me the meaning of the word shy falls somewhere between "fearful" and "slow to warm up." My youngsters are not shy. They are reserved, polite as Katie said. They have age-appropriate confidence. With greater size and experience, I can imagine them even more confident.


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## onarock (Jun 22, 2011)

deletion When you generalize leopards and then back it up with all your EXPERIENCE comments be prepared for those who really have been keeping these animals and breeding them on a consistant basis, that dont share the same view, to disagee and when you. deleting off topic


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## Neal (Jun 22, 2011)

just going to delete the whole thing....by Jacqui


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## Tom (Jun 22, 2011)

deleted for being off topic People should be able to share their opinions on this forum without being personally attacked and called names. Me included. I don't agree with everyone about everything all the time, but when have I called anyone clueless or flat out accused them of lying about their level of experience? The mods would not tolerate it if I did it, so why is it tolerated for months on end of him doing it?
Off topic, but allowed as it has good points. As a mod, I don't allow blatant comments of such a matter when I see them. I just don't always see them...sorry

I was hoping that this thread would allow everyone to share their opinions on the matter of leopard tortoise personalities and then we could simply post a link for the next 1000 times someone asks about leopard personalities. Maybe its not such a good idea, since all this "dirty laundry" is on the thread now.


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## Missy (Jun 22, 2011)

I read this post to learn more about Leopards because I just got one from Tom. Now I am sorry I read it. Please everyone just drop it. I think this forum is great and I learn so much from all of you. I suggest that you just simply do not read threads that the other posts. I respect everyones opinions on here from the well experienced to the brand new, I think we can learn something from everyone.


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## Tom (Jun 22, 2011)

John, I failed to address your question regarding "blitzing them with a spray bottle like some form of water torture" question. Despite your implied insult, it is a valid point. I only started the water spraying around a year ago, so that wouldn't explain the previous 19 years of non-spraying leopard tortoise experience. Further, I don't spray adults or even larger juveniles, so IF you were correct it would only explain the shyness of any small ones that I have had in my care for the last year. None of the people I have asked spray their torts at any age, so it wouldn't explain their tortoises shyness either.


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## dmmj (Jun 22, 2011)

Takes a deep breath
II personally have known leopard keepers now for about 6 years and have seen a few leopards, In my own personal experience they tend to be shyer than other species, I know of one or two with sulcata personalities but over all I think they are shyer.

Ok let the debate rage on.


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## Tom (Jun 22, 2011)

So back to the original posts intent: It seems that the people chiming in have had a variety of experiences with leopards. We all seem to agree that SOME leopards are shy, while we have ALL seen examples of leopards that were not shy at all. So instead of a general statement that many don't agree with "Most leopards are shy, even though some aren't.", maybe the question ought to be, "What percentage has each person experienced as shy VS. not shy?" Maybe its 50/50 for one person, maybe 90/10 for another. What say the leopard keepers here on the forum?


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## Neal (Jun 22, 2011)

dmmj said:


> Takes a deep breath
> II personally have known leopard keepers now for about 6 years and have seen a few leopards, In my own personal experience they tend to be shyer than other species, I know of one or two with sulcata personalities but over all I think they are shyer.



written as a joke, but since I am cleaning the thread, remember even with joking language we have children in here...and adults behaving like children. , by Jacqui 



Tom said:


> So back to the original posts intent: It seems that the people chiming in have had a variety of experiences with leopards. We all seem to agree that SOME leopards are shy, while we have ALL seen examples of leopards that were not shy at all. So instead of a general statement that many don't agree with "Most leopards are shy, even though some aren't.", maybe the question ought to be, "What percentage has each person experienced as shy VS. not shy?" Maybe its 50/50 for one person, maybe 90/10 for another. What say the leopard keepers here on the forum?



It's hard to say. Of my 6 adults and sub adults and 7 hatchlings it's gotta be 75% what I consider as having personality /25 not. I can only comment on the ones I have, as the others I have seen and observe have been in a variety of different conditions and were brought up different ways. So maybe I just caught them on an off day, or a particularly average day. I think there are a lot subjective things should be considered in this is well as I have always said. That's why I think it's going to be hard to come up with anything conclusive in this debate.


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## dmmj (Jun 22, 2011)

Regarding my statement on shyness I could not say by sub species (if it exists) just leopards in general.


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## N2TORTS (Jun 22, 2011)

actually I see the same thing go on about RF's..
( the debates) .......( the so called know it all's) ..Iam usally the one in hot water, the last one one I laughed at is"Ive seen 1,000 Redfoots in the last 10 years ..." ....SO just to be fair, removing this one word too as not condusive to a child reading it...by Jacqui what? .... Now back to the thread ... yea all of my leo's past and present seem to be on the more shy side when compared to other species I've kept current or past. Although I dont consider myself an expert of any species, I know "my" animals VERY well.......and after 40 years + keeping them along with other herps...its never fun to be the salty dog - or the new guy on the block, but I do find it more entertaining than cable!


JD~


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## dmmj (Jun 22, 2011)

N2TORTS said:


> actually I see the same thing go on about RF's..
> ( the debates) .......( the so called know it all's) ..Iam usally the one in hot water, the last one one I laughed at is"Ive seen 1,000 Redfoots in the last 10 years ..." ....SO ... what? .... Now back to the thread ... yea all of my leo's past and present seem to be on the more shy side when compared to other species I've kept current or past. Although I dont consider myself an expert of any species, I know "my" animals VERY well.......and after 40 years + keeping them along with other herps...its never fun to be the salty dog - or the new guy on the block, but I do find it more entertaining than cable!
> 
> 
> JD~


You know I have seen literally thousands of women over the years, it does not make me an expert on them.


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## Az tortoise compound (Jun 22, 2011)

Tom said:


> So back to the original posts intent: It seems that the people chiming in have had a variety of experiences with leopards. We all seem to agree that SOME leopards are shy, while we have ALL seen examples of leopards that were not shy at all. So instead of a general statement that many don't agree with "Most leopards are shy, even though some aren't.", maybe the question ought to be, "What percentage has each person experienced as shy VS. not shy?" Maybe its 50/50 for one person, maybe 90/10 for another. What say the leopard keepers here on the forum?



The most shy tortoises I own are a radiated yearling (spends 22 hrs a day in his shell) and two juvenile P.pardalis (will not move while someone is in their presence...even for food).

I say 50/50 because they are shy or they aren't
Helpful I know......


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## N2TORTS (Jun 22, 2011)

dmmj said:


> N2TORTS said:
> 
> 
> > actually I see the same thing go on about RF's..
> ...



I think thats called a VOYURE....ya dont drive a van do you ?


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## onarock (Jun 22, 2011)

Mean Mod Jacqui who is getting real tire of this red ink stuff, just decided it all needed to be deleted. Get back on topic here and stop the childish behavior folks.


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## Mao Senpai (Jun 22, 2011)

Well I just wanted to say... the most outgoing of my leopard snatched some cactus out of my hand today! I was totally shocked. I was filling up the food bowl and wasn't looking because I was trying to do something else and had my hand there for a minute and.. snatch! I thought it was cool  My other one just stared at me like... are you gone yet.


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## Jacqui (Jun 22, 2011)

Okay, guess while I am here, I will add my two cents worth.

First I have limited experience, but here goes: I had for about two years a group of about 6-8 teenager leopards years back. Most were rather shy, but none terribly shy. Fast forward to today... one adult male who was very much a pet, he is a shadow when your out in his area. One of the friendliest tortoises I have ever been around. Then there are 4 younger ones, which have been here several years. One is super duper shy, the rest just normal healthy type of shy. Keep in mind, I do not do much babying my tortoises as a rule. The really shy one is an exception, she gets more ATTEMPTED babying, yet stays very shy.


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## onarock (Jun 22, 2011)

I didnt write this and I dont think Jacqui is mean. 



onarock said:


> Mean Mod Jacqui who is getting real tire of this red ink stuff, just decided it all needed to be deleted. Get back on topic here and stop the childish behavior folks.


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## Jacqui (Jun 22, 2011)

onarock said:


> I didnt write this and I dont think Jacqui is mean.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For anybody who does not understand, everything in this and another issue prone thread on Sulcatas VS Leopards, is being used when I, Jacqui the Mod, am deleting posts. No Paul did not write the above, nor did he ever tell me I am mean, that was me, Jacqui, writing that after I deleted Paul's entire post. I was getting very frustrated at that point by what I term childish behavior by supposed adults in here. We are not here to fight, we are here to learn and to help others learn. If you want to fight and argue, go do it some where other then in this forum...please!


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## Neal (Jun 22, 2011)

Neal said:


> Thanks for wriitng it too!
> 
> 
> 
> You're welcome and thank you for bringing things back on track.


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## John (Jun 23, 2011)

Man, did ya here the latest rumor? Mod Jacqui is mean. mean people rule!


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## Jacqui (Jun 23, 2011)

squamata said:


> Man, did ya here the latest rumor? Mod Jacqui is mean. mean people rule!



First that is not rumor, it's fact I am mean. Next that is off topic. Let's stay on topic, okay? Also remember debate the topic, not the quality or personality of each other.


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## John (Jun 23, 2011)

Jacqui said:


> squamata said:
> 
> 
> > Man, did ya here the latest rumor? Mod Jacqui is mean. mean people rule!
> ...



What was the topic?


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## Jacqui (Jun 23, 2011)

I do believe the topic is... are leopards shy?


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## onarock (Jun 23, 2011)

Guess Ill throw in my .02 cents. Are leopard tortoises shy? Some of them and some of them not. Its been my experience that leopard tortoises are not shy, not to say that there are not shy ones. Dont know if an earlier post of mine still exsists on this thread, but I'll say it again. Leopard tortoises have been imported into this country for decades. What we know as gpp were imported over 20 years ago. Most of, if not all of the gpp most here see are captive bred animals. Gpb on the other hand were imported into this country untill 2000. Its my opinion that alot of the shy gpb are in fact wild caught animals. There is a huge difference between the behavior of a wild caught animal and a captive bred animal. The OP suggested that some of these large tortoises that people consider gpb might be hybrids. This is not true. Leopards were imported from all over Africa where they range. From many different countrys. How do I know? I used to go to Cal Zoo and LA reptile and dig through crates of them in the late 80's early 90's. Much like debunking the myth of the Ethiopian/Somalian leopards, let me debunk this. If you read natural history papers written by people in the field that have spent their lives studying tortoises you will know that gpb come in all shapes and sizes. Or, we can speculate. What if the giant Somali babcocki are ranging into other gpb clades territory and breeding with them? And, some that were imported are actually pure gpb, but they get their size from the Somali's. There is just too many variables when it comes to leopards. This can be spun and spun all day long. They are the largest ranging sub-saharan tortoise in Africa, which last time I checked, was a pretty big place. This is why, to me, all this generalization stuff is Madness. I have some large gpb are they 100% babcocki? Im almost sure of it, could I be wrong? Yes. Are the ones we call gpp here in the states 100% gpp that some claim. Who knows. Their guess is as good as mine. Just because the import papers say geochelone pardalis, doesnt mean they are 100% gpp. What is certain is that this group of leopards was imported from this country of origin, and if they are really good, might also list collecting data, but its still just a guess. Both sub.sp share the same range.


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## Neal (Jun 23, 2011)

onarock said:


> Guess Ill throw in my .02 cents. Are leopard tortoises shy? Some of them and some of them not. Its been my experience that leopard tortoises are not shy, not to say that there are not shy ones. Dont know if an earlier post of mine still exsists on this thread, but I'll say it again. Leopard tortoises have been imported into this country for decades. What we know as gpp were imported over 20 years ago. Most of, if not all of the gpp most here see are captive bred animals. Gpb on the other hand were imported into this country untill 2000. Its my opinion that alot of the shy gpb are in fact wild caught animals. There is a huge difference between the behavior of a wild caught animal and a captive bred animal. The OP suggested that some of these large tortoises that people consider gpb might be hybrids. This is not true. Leopards were imported from all over Africa where they range. From many different countrys. How do I know? I used to go to Cal Zoo and LA reptile and dig through crates of them in the late 80's early 90's. Much like debunking the myth of the Ethiopian/Somalian leopards, let me debunk this. If you read natural history papers written by people in the field that have spent their lives studying tortoises you will know that gpb come in all shapes and sizes. Or, we can speculate. What if the giant Somali babcocki are ranging into other gpb clades territory and breeding with them? And, some that were imported are actually pure gpb, but they get their size from the Somali's. There is just too many variables when it comes to leopards. This can be spun and spun all day long. They are the largest ranging sub-saharan tortoise in Africa, which last time I checked, was a pretty big place. This is why, to me, all this generalization stuff is Madness. I have some large gpb are they 100% babcocki? Im almost sure of it, could I be wrong? Yes. Are the ones we call gpp here in the states 100% gpp that some claim. Who knows. Their guess is as good as mine. Just because the import papers say geochelone pardalis, doesnt mean they are 100% gpp. What is certain is that this group of leopards was imported from this country of origin, and if they are really good, might also list collecting data, but its still just a guess. Both sub.sp share the same range.



Thank You.

I had never considered the CB vs WC aspect of this argument. Having seen the same thing in box turtles, it makes a lot of sense.


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## Az tortoise compound (Jun 23, 2011)

onarock said:


> Guess Ill throw in my .02 cents. Are leopard tortoises shy? Some of them and some of them not. Its been my experience that leopard tortoises are not shy, not to say that there are not shy ones. Dont know if an earlier post of mine still exsists on this thread, but I'll say it again. Leopard tortoises have been imported into this country for decades. What we know as gpp were imported over 20 years ago. Most of, if not all of the gpp most here see are captive bred animals. Gpb on the other hand were imported into this country untill 2000. Its my opinion that alot of the shy gpb are in fact wild caught animals. There is a huge difference between the behavior of a wild caught animal and a captive bred animal. The OP suggested that some of these large tortoises that people consider gpb might be hybrids. This is not true. Leopards were imported from all over Africa where they range. From many different countrys. How do I know? I used to go to Cal Zoo and LA reptile and dig through crates of them in the late 80's early 90's. Much like debunking the myth of the Ethiopian/Somalian leopards, let me debunk this. If you read natural history papers written by people in the field that have spent their lives studying tortoises you will know that gpb come in all shapes and sizes. Or, we can speculate. What if the giant Somali babcocki are ranging into other gpb clades territory and breeding with them? And, some that were imported are actually pure gpb, but they get their size from the Somali's. There is just too many variables when it comes to leopards. This can be spun and spun all day long. They are the largest ranging sub-saharan tortoise in Africa, which last time I checked, was a pretty big place. This is why, to me, all this generalization stuff is Madness. I have some large gpb are they 100% babcocki? Im almost sure of it, could I be wrong? Yes. Are the ones we call gpp here in the states 100% gpp that some claim. Who knows. Their guess is as good as mine. Just because the import papers say geochelone pardalis, doesnt mean they are 100% gpp. What is certain is that this group of leopards was imported from this country of origin, and if they are really good, might also list collecting data, but its still just a guess. Both sub.sp share the same range.



+1 Paul!
This is the most intelligent post I have read on this forum in regards to the shyness of Leopards.


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## Mao Senpai (Jun 23, 2011)

onarock said:


> Guess Ill throw in my .02 cents. Are leopard tortoises shy? Some of them and some of them not. Its been my experience that leopard tortoises are not shy, not to say that there are not shy ones. Dont know if an earlier post of mine still exsists on this thread, but I'll say it again. Leopard tortoises have been imported into this country for decades. What we know as gpp were imported over 20 years ago. Most of, if not all of the gpp most here see are captive bred animals. Gpb on the other hand were imported into this country untill 2000. Its my opinion that alot of the shy gpb are in fact wild caught animals. There is a huge difference between the behavior of a wild caught animal and a captive bred animal. The OP suggested that some of these large tortoises that people consider gpb might be hybrids. This is not true. Leopards were imported from all over Africa where they range. From many different countrys. How do I know? I used to go to Cal Zoo and LA reptile and dig through crates of them in the late 80's early 90's. Much like debunking the myth of the Ethiopian/Somalian leopards, let me debunk this. If you read natural history papers written by people in the field that have spent their lives studying tortoises you will know that gpb come in all shapes and sizes. Or, we can speculate. What if the giant Somali babcocki are ranging into other gpb clades territory and breeding with them? And, some that were imported are actually pure gpb, but they get their size from the Somali's. There is just too many variables when it comes to leopards. This can be spun and spun all day long. They are the largest ranging sub-saharan tortoise in Africa, which last time I checked, was a pretty big place. This is why, to me, all this generalization stuff is Madness. I have some large gpb are they 100% babcocki? Im almost sure of it, could I be wrong? Yes. Are the ones we call gpp here in the states 100% gpp that some claim. Who knows. Their guess is as good as mine. Just because the import papers say geochelone pardalis, doesnt mean they are 100% gpp. What is certain is that this group of leopards was imported from this country of origin, and if they are really good, might also list collecting data, but its still just a guess. Both sub.sp share the same range.



This made a lot of sense.


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## TylerStewart (Jun 23, 2011)

I think it depends what the "standard" is that we're comparing to. I think you'd be saddened if you expected your leopard(s) to be as "in your face" as sulcatas or Russians are, but there are certainly species that are more shy (and maybe less commonly kept). I have a group of about 7-8 babcocki leopards that you can't keep off your feet if you're in their cage. My wife was complaining to me the other day about them nipping at her toenails constantly as she was out there wandering around. I have another group of babcocki that is not like that, but not really shy; they kinda just ignore me. They don't really tuck in, but they don't come to me either. My pardalis leopards are the same way, they kinda just ignore me. The biggest difference is that the group that is super-friendly has been kept together as a group for about a decade. They have established their ranks and gotten comfortable with each other, and I think this contributes a lot to it. The other groups are getting animals added and taken away until I'm happy with the group. I think this long term steady housing contributes a lot to their comfort level.


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## Tom (Jun 24, 2011)

I'm glad I started this thread. Lots of good info and I'm gaining perspective on where everyone is coming from. I finally got all eight responses from the eight people I asked. Some of them wish to remain anonymous, but I'll give you their qualifications in a vague way. Each of these people were given the simple question. "Are leopard tortoises shy?"

1. Richard Fife. His qualifications speak for themselves. The man knows leopards as well as anyone does. His answer surprised me and gave me some insight too. Tyler just sort of touched on it too in his post, but more on that later.
Richard's response: "Leopard tortoises are not as active and curious as sulcatas but if they have interaction with their owner they become very friendly."

2. A wholesaler friend. This is the person who ships all my babies for me. This person's been involved in reptiles their whole life and I've known them as a wholesaler for around ten years now, dating back to another wholesale company. I honesty don't know if this person even has any tortoises right now, but this person has got all sorts of other neat critters.
His response: "More shy than a sulcatta but not really shy."

3. This man has been a friend and "Reptile Mentor" to me for over 15 years. He ran the largest import/wholesale company on the West Coast for several decades, until he changed professions. He has some amazing stories. To this day he still maintains one of the most comprehensive and best reptile collections of anyone I know. His collection includes properly permitted venomous snakes, crocodilians and yes, Leopard tortoises too. I have the highest regard and respect for this man.
His response: "Well, yes they generally are, but not the South Africans. Those ones are more like sulcatas." Funny, I say almost this exact same thing. I probably learned this phraseology from him and have just parroted it for all this time.

4. A friend of mine. He's been keeping tortoises since the 80's. He and another friend started a huge breeding operation back in the mid 90's. It was mostly leopards, but also some sulcatas and other species in smaller amounts. They had 100's of adult tortoises. Some were CB, some were WC. He was the breeder of my adult female sulcata, Deloris.
His response: "Oh yeah. Very shy. Except for those pardalis pardalis. Those things are the way to go. If you want to do leopards you should try to get some of those." When I told him I had 14, he asked me if I got them from his friend "So and so". When I said "yep.", he said, "you're golden then, hang on to those."

5. Friend 2. Keeper and breeder of leopards on a smaller scale. Only a few animals for a few years. Pretty sure they were all CB.
Response: "... not the most gregarious species out there."

6. Carl May. I have the highest regard and respect for Carl. He was keeping and breeding tortoises before I was born. I've had several email conversations with him since joining TFO, and find him to be very likable and knowledgeable. He gave me permission to directly quote him here on the forum.
Carl's Response: "Babcocki are shy and have virtually NO personality as far as I have experienced. But the south African pardalis pardalis are fabulously interesting and are not shy at all. **** Bartlett's p. pardalis are incredibly neat animals! Go ahead, quote me."

7. Friend 3. This person has many years of experience keeping and breeding both subspecies of leopards and sulcatas. There are around two dozen torts in this person's collection, not counting babies which are present in abundance.
Response: "Well to answer as a yes or no question, I would say that yes, Leopard tortoises are a shy species." This person further described that they are not ALL shy and that their environment and handling also plays a part. This person also volunteered that pps have totally different personalities and are "hands down not shy in comparison to pbs." The personality of pps was compared to that of sulcatas. Here is a direct copy and paste quote of my entire email to this person: "In general, would you consider leopard tortoises to be a shy species?" That was it. There were no others words or sentences in my email.

8. The breeder of MY (OUR) Gpp. This person has multiple pens with groups of each subspecies, literally side by side, divided by his drive way. I don't know what year this person started with leopards, but he was in full swing by 1991 when he bought his founding pp stock as direct imports. He's produced dozens or hundreds of offspring, every year, from both subspecies since that time. He has also kept many of his own hatchlings and raised them up to be breeders. His pp, both the original imports and their CB adult offspring all behave very sulcata like. His pb all behave in the typical way I have usually seen them. If any of you know this man's name PLEASE keep it to yourself. He wishes to remain anonymous and wants NO public attention. No matter how much someone may dislike me, this man deserves to keep his privacy.
His response: "Yes. I would say Babcocki are quite shy." That was it. He's a man of few words and not real big on email chat.

I don't expect this to end all debate on the subject, but since these are some of the people that I know and talk torts with, it should shed some insight on why my opinion of leopards is what it is.

Now about what Tyler and Mr. Fife said: I have known sulcatas and leopards for the same amount of time. In 1991 a man, whose name I never even knew, walked into the Southern CA pet shop where I worked with a tub of leopard and sulcata hatchlings. Around a dozen of each. We were all awestruck. He was asking $100 for the sulcatas and $150 for the leopards. We bought several. I'm sure that I had heard of them prior to this, and I knew there were lots of different tortoise species "out there". But this was THE day that I "discovered" Leopards and sulcatas. Prior to this I mostly dealt with CDTs and box turtles, which at my tender young age, I felt I knew A LOT about since I had had ONE since I was 7. So for me, from day one, I have had leopards and sulcatas at the same time, side by side. Its NO WONDER I find Leopards shy. My whole life, I've been comparing them to sulcatas. Not necessarily intentionally, but subconsciously. So NOW, finally, it occurs to me why some of us are so polarized on this subject. We all have a different frame of reference and "shy" can mean different things to different people. Neal, who I respect greatly, has been one of the strongest objectors to my "shy Leopard" opinions. It occurs to me that he's mostly kept Leopards. He once related to me that he did have a single sulcata for a while and it was much less outgoing than his Leopards. Neal, please correct any of this that I have remembered incorrectly. It occurs to me then, that if someone has not kept a lot of Russians or sulcatas AND Leopards at the same time, the Leopards, might be seen in a whole different light. I know that Mick, who I also respect greatly, has both species, so this possible explanation doesn't cover ALL situations.

Please share your thoughts.


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## onarock (Jun 24, 2011)

Tom said:


> I don't expect this to end all debate on the subject, but since these are some of the people that I know and talk torts with, it should shed some insight on why my opinion of leopards is what it is.
> 
> Please share your thoughts.



I know my thoughts arent wanted here, but heck, I'll share them anyway.

Your above copied quote sums it all up for me...You base your opinion on what other people say. All this stuff we have been going back and forth on for months now, about experience and first hand knowledge. I guess all this time I have been aguing with 5-8 unknown people and not really you.
Honestly Tom, I apologize for the last 3-4 months of bickering.


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## Neal (Jun 24, 2011)

Tom said:


> We all have a different frame of reference and "shy" can mean different things to different people.




This is why when someone asks about tortoise personality I will usually ask what they are looking for in tortoise personality. I have done this a lot, actually.

My experience with sulcatas is certainly not comparable to my experience with leopards. As far as the number of sulcatas I have owned, it was a whopping two. A lot of my experience comes from my uncle in Vegas that had a group of about 8 or so, (also had a pair of leopards and a few desert tortoises). I've also had friends and other relatives with groups and individuals. So, I think I have enough experience to get a good idea of what they are like, and I have to say the same thing about them as I do with leopards, each tortoise is unique and generalities of them being not shy *might* be misleading. 

They certainly behave differently, that I don't think is questionable. The sulcatas I've seen behave more like a puppy, whereas leopards I have seen are a little more like a mature dog. I guess with respect to these personality questions that come up, the person needs to know what they are looking for in tortoise personality and then us with our expereinces of different types can chime in and recomend the type that would work better for them. 

As far as GPP having more of a personality than GPB, I just don't see it. We have relatively the same amount of hands on time with our seperate large groups. For the most part they came from the same adults. The pens I have for both types are side by side, and I look in there and I see the same thing all the time. The same ones of both types are hanging out in the corner, and the same ones are out patrolling the pen. I'm sure if you were to come over to my house, you would see differences. If Richard or any of the others you mentioned above came over, they would see something different then the two of us. 

I've said it earlier that I just don't think personality in tortoises is cut and dry, as in they have it or they don't. It's complex and people see things differently. So when I saw your posts about them being shy and like rocks, I think in terms of what has been described above and in yours and Tyler's posts, it might be misleading...maybe misleading isn't the right word, but you get what I mean right?


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## Tom (Jun 24, 2011)

onarock said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > I don't expect this to end all debate on the subject, but since these are some of the people that I know and talk torts with, it should shed some insight on why my opinion of leopards is what it is.
> ...



Awe Paul. Always kiddin' around. I know you mean well and I accept your apology.



I get it Neal. Loud and clear. I think you and I have always agreed more than disagreed, but we just use different words and ways of describing things. What I mean is, I tend to generalize a lot where you like to be more specific and note the exceptions. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with either technique....... generally speaking.


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## Yvonne G (Jun 24, 2011)

I think we all seem to be missing the point. You can't lump all species of tortoises together any more than you can lump different dog breeds together. Are all pit bulls aggressive? Are all thoroughbred horses fast runners? Are all housewives lazy?


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## Tom (Jun 24, 2011)

emysemys said:


> I think we all seem to be missing the point. You can't lump all species of tortoises together any more than you can lump different dog breeds together. Are all pit bulls aggressive? Are all thoroughbred horses fast runners? Are all housewives lazy?



This relates directly to my comments to Neal. I would say that most true pitbulls ARE dog aggressive. Now everyone on this forum should know that I've seen tons of them that weren't. I like to avoid "all or none" and "always or never" statements. The only "always" that I like to use is there is ALWAYS an exception.

This is exactly what I was saying in the first few sentences of post #1. I don't think, and never meant to imply, that ALL leopards are shy. But still, the majority of the ones that I have experienced appear shy to my way of perceiving things.


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## Neal (Jun 24, 2011)

emysemys said:


> I think we all seem to be missing the point. You can't lump all species of tortoises together any more than you can lump different dog breeds together. Are all pit bulls aggressive? Are all thoroughbred horses fast runners? Are all housewives lazy?



I get that point Yvonne. That's why I disagree that a non-shy leopard tortoise is the exception to the species. Exception to one's opinion yes, but not exception to the species. I don't mean to say the oposite that a non-shy leopard is the standard either, only that it's a case by case basis. I think the opinions that have been shared here illustrate that.


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## dav3 (Jun 24, 2011)

i think its 50-50 tbh i own 2 leos and my male squirtle is shy but on the other hand my female Ivy is probly the most outgoing tort to reach scotland


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## ChiKat (Jun 24, 2011)

Tom said:


> So for me, from day one, I have had leopards and sulcatas at the same time, side by side. Its NO WONDER I find Leopards shy. My whole life, I've been comparing them to sulcatas. Not necessarily intentionally, but subconsciously. So NOW, finally, it occurs to me why some of us are so polarized on this subject. We all have a different frame of reference and "shy" can mean different things to different people.



So basically what I said back on page 1 


ChiKat said:


> People might not consider their Leopards to be shy, but when compared to crazy, attention-seeking Sulcatas, Leopards might seem more reserved.



But what do I know, I have "little or no leopard experience" and I should not have chimed in.




Tom said:


> I too would hope someone with little or no leopard experience would not chime in here, but I think some of that is unavoidable on a public forum.



(I hope you know I'm saying this partly in jest )


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## Tom (Jun 24, 2011)

When you are right you are right, Katie.

...and you were right.


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## Fernando (Jun 24, 2011)

Geez... Tom you could have saved us all these posts and listened to Katie!!!


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## Tom (Jun 24, 2011)

Hey! I never said I wasn't hard headed! 

Besides that, look at all the fun we would have missed out on.


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## onarock (Jun 24, 2011)

Well, where are we here. Weve heard from long term keepers, newbies (despite the request from the OP), breeders and from Richard, Carl and the 5 Icons (roll eyes). Weve had various opinions and no real conclusion. Weve had the OP dismiss his own OP by stating that his opinion is based on the opinion of others and not really his. Weve learned that there is a difference between W.C. and C.B. behavior. To me, I keep going back to what Mick wrote a long time ago, on a thread far, far away, Each individual tortoise has its own personality.


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## Tom (Jun 24, 2011)

onarock said:


> Well, where are we here. Weve heard from long term keepers, newbies (despite the request from the OP), breeders and from Richard, Carl and the 5 Icons (roll eyes). Weve had various opinions and no real conclusion. Weve had the OP dismiss his own OP by stating that his opinion is based on the opinion of others and not really his. Weve learned that there is a difference between W.C. and C.B. behavior. To me, I keep going back to what Mick wrote a long time ago, on a thread far, far away, Each individual tortoise has its own personality.



Always so pleasant when you chime in. OP said no such thing, but that never stopped you before, why would it now? Your brand of comedy is just getting funnier and funnier. I'm laughing right now. Maybe you really are just misunderstood.


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## Jacqui (Jun 24, 2011)

I really don't think we are missing the point that each and every tortoise is an individual with their own unique personalities, quirks, and various amounts and types of shyness. I think we can make some *generalizations* however or at least attempt to make them.

First off how the tortoise is raised will make a big impact on his behavior. Was it wild caught? Was it treated more like a pet growing up or as a wild animal kept in captivity? Is it an "only child" thus given more individual time, attention and chance for opportunities to be observed and worked with? Is this animal given a food reward for being "friendly" to further increase the chances of future "good" behavior? How much time does this animal daily get from humans? Is it being raise in an environment where it feels safe and secure? Those are just some factors that really stand out to me as to things that can impact individual shyness.

As was brought up before is just the definition of shyness. Is it shy if it withdrawals into it's shell? Or is it shy only if it then remains in the shell for over a minute? over three minutes? five minutes? ten? what amount of time?
Do we call it shy if it doesn't come running when it sees us? Is it shy if it does not accept food from your hand? Is it shy if it just prefers to act like a "natural" tortoise rather then a pet, so it ignores you and carries on doing it's on thing? We each have our own thoughts as to what shy is. We may even give different standards of the word depending on who we are talking to, why we are making the comments, or even which animal or species we are talking about.

Comparing sulcata to leopards is like comparing oranges to apples, both are fruit yet nothing alike. It's like thinking those oranges should be crunchy like the apples are. It's just not fair and it's taking away the importance and specialness of both items being compared.

However, folks do at times need to have a rough "guesstamation" of what they can expect from each species. I really liked the analogy somebody used of a sulcata more being a puppy and the leopard the older dog. It was a visual that almost every person from any country can clearly see. It shows that both can be good, but good in different ways and that it is unfair to think they both should fill the exact same niche or mold.

There is and never will be a black or white answer to this question of: are leopards shy. The answer is in varying shades of grey dependent upon the animal your looking at, it's environment, it's history, and the human's own perspective of them.


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## Neal (Jun 24, 2011)

Well Jacqui, I think you just resolved the debate as far as I'm concerned. Besides Paul's post, this has to be the most insightful post I have seen on this topic. No offense to anyone in saying that, because we have all made valid points, those two posts really summed it up for me. All that is included in your 2nd and 3rd paragraph are what I've been suggesting by personailties being subjective. Thank you.


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## dmmj (Jun 24, 2011)

Generalizations are not bad in a species, like russains most russians I know, I have seen a lot are outgoing great personalities and often like people does that man every russian is like that? no of course not, are there russians who don't fit that description? yes there are but overall if someone was to ask my opinion of russians I would say that they are an outgoing tortoise with great personalities. FYI I can finally spell opinion now without the help of the spell checker a minor victory perhaps but still


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## coreyc (Jun 24, 2011)

Out of the three I have two are pretty outgoing one is kind of shy but I think it is because she had a URI and I had to give her baytril she did not like  two more coming next week let's see how they are


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## Fernando (Jun 24, 2011)

So, If I was someone who was looking to buy a babcocki from a local pet store or breeder 

and I asked which one I should buy...Sulcata or a Leopard...then we are assuming that I'm going to purchase the Leopard to be my personal pet? Right? and not creating my own breeding colony...where I'm not going to be giving it much attention

Then should we say something a long the lines of...

"A leopard tortoise species and a Sulcata are two different types of tortoises. One gets big and the other not AS big etc.... And depending on how much interaction you give these two...whether it be hand feeding or being around you often, they MAY develop a friendly interactive attitude towards you."


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## onarock (Jun 24, 2011)

Well put Fernando. 



FernandoM said:


> So, If I was someone who was looking to buy a babcocki from a local pet store or breeder
> 
> and I asked which one I should buy...Sulcata or a Leopard...then we are assuming that I'm going to purchase the Leopard to be my personal pet? Right? and not creating my own breeding colony...where I'm not going to be giving it much attention
> 
> ...


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## dav3 (Jun 24, 2011)

what does it matter if its a leo or a russian? Its deffo a 50% chance but then again can a tortoise described as being shy change over time with the owner? Are they having bad days or good days everyone has them even torts?


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## ticothetort2 (Jun 25, 2011)

dav3 said:


> what does it matter if its a leo or a russian? Its deffo a 50% chance but then again can a tortoise described as being shy change over time with the owner? Are they having bad days or good days everyone has them even torts?



Agree w/ this post 100%. There are days when Tico (a GPP) wants to walk up to me and outstrech his head to get a scratch on the head, while other days he wants nothing to do w/ me and will pay no mind to my beckoning for attention. Just thought I would share that.

I have no where near enough experience to say anything about a whole species of torts. But as w/ any creature, I'm sure there are some who are outgoing vs. shy, friendly vs. aggressive, curious vs. reserved. You can relate it to dogs as being the most common generalizations of animals: pitbulls = aggressive, boxers = playful, german shepards = loyal, bulldogs = stubborn, and so on and so forth. 

I think in the end it's hit or miss.


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## dmmj (Jun 25, 2011)

I would like to hear from some people with CB VS. WC I know that in a previous post I stated that most russians I have seen which have been a lot have also all been WC. I wonder if being WC may make a difference?


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## Jacqui (Jun 25, 2011)

Another big difference may be if they are inside or outside. For the most part my tortoises (all species, not just the Leopards), are much friendlier and less shy inside then outside.


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## onarock (Jun 25, 2011)

Of course it does. Even in long term C.B. animals there is a acclimation period. The most shy tortoise I have is an adult gpp. I didnt want to use her as an example on this topic, because I didnt think it would be fair. She is 15 and has been living at the same place with the same keepers all her life. When I fist went up to see her she was very skidish, running for her Dogloo when me and my cousin walked in. Her old keeper said she doesnt like strangers. When I brought her here, a few months ago, all she did was hide. She is still a little skidish and I think its going to be a little while before she is comfortable. My second most shy tortoises is a 2 year old gpp. I think it must be related to Micks because it acts the same as his. 

I think that W.C. animals definately have a longer acclimation period before they are used to people compared to C.B. animals. This goes for any animal. The same can be said for C.B. animals. The older they are when you move them, the longer the acclimation period. Of course, this is not true for all tortoises, just some personal observations over the years.



dmmj said:


> I would like to hear from some people with CB VS. WC I know that in a previous post I stated that most russians I have seen which have been a lot have also all been WC. I wonder if being WC may make a difference?


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## onarock (Jun 25, 2011)

Interesting. Maybe from all the noises outside and the different environment. Do they spend more time in or out?



Jacqui said:


> Another big difference may be if they are inside or outside. For the most part my tortoises (all species, not just the Leopards), are much friendlier and less shy inside then outside.


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## matt41gb (Jun 25, 2011)

Ok, I think using the word "shy" is anthropomorphizing the tortoises. I think we should look at it this way. Tortoises are naturally geared to retreat into their shell when a predator approaches, right? They are hard wired with this instinctual response. The word "shy" has too much feeling behind it, tortoises don't have emotion, (oh great, I just made some people mad, " Anyway, when we look at it from an evolutionary standpoint, we can understand that they are a prey animal by nature. Leopard tortoises have been hunted for God knows how long. It's a wonder why leopards tend to be on the flighty side. They are a wild animal, no matter how you raise them, this includes all other species of tortoise as well. I believe that leopards have evolved this "shyness" because of the constant barrage from predatory animals, and people. Their range is more exposed to the elements as well, they are more dependent on being alert and retreating to the safest place possible. If this is in fact true, it would explain why some leopards tend to be hesitant to trust their owners, wc or cb. What do you guys think? I'm tired and running out of brain power. 

-Matt


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## onarock (Jun 25, 2011)

Tom said:


> onarock said:
> 
> 
> > Well, where are we here. Weve heard from long term keepers, newbies (despite the request from the OP), breeders and from Richard, Carl and the 5 Icons (roll eyes). Weve had various opinions and no real conclusion. Weve had the OP dismiss his own OP by stating that his opinion is based on the opinion of others and not really his. Weve learned that there is a difference between W.C. and C.B. behavior. To me, I keep going back to what Mick wrote a long time ago, on a thread far, far away, Each individual tortoise has its own personality.
> ...



I know its comedy, but this is even better.
You didnt write this?

_Tom Wrote: I too would hope someone with little or no leopard experience would not chime in here, but I think some of that is unavoidable on a public forum._

Or this refering to Richard, Carl and the 5 Icons.

_Tom Wrote: I don't expect this to end all debate on the subject, but since these are some of the people that I know and talk torts with, it should shed some insight on why my opinion of leopards is what it is._

LOL. Im not crazy right. 
So, Tom, tell me again how the OP never stated this. Please dont accuse me of putting words in your mouth. 
Again, its O.K., WE ALL read it. You base your opinion on the experience of others, and not your own experience. 
Sincerely, 
Night at the Improv.


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## Tom (Jun 25, 2011)

Oh that's okay Paul. No need to argue anymore. You just keep on doing what you do and so will I. I hope your remaining days are enjoyable.


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## matt41gb (Jun 25, 2011)

Okay girls, it's time to kiss and make up.  You two are very brilliant people with differing opinions. Of course it's going to get heated, but take a step back and look at what you're arguing about, c'mon....... 

-Matt


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## Tom (Jun 26, 2011)

Well put Matt. Its just an online tortoise forum. I'm here for the fun of it.


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## Yvonne G (Jun 26, 2011)

Hey...I resent that! We're not JUST a forum. We're a group of folks who really like each other, and who LOVE to talk tortoise. There are even a few here who I call friend! So, we're not JUST a forum, we're *THE* Tortoise Forum!!


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## dmmj (Jun 26, 2011)

emysemys said:


> Hey...I resent that! We're not JUST a forum. We're a group of folks who really like each other, and who LOVE to talk tortoise. There are even a few here who I call friend! So, we're not JUST a forum, we're *THE* Tortoise Forum!!


I don't like anyone here. Also what ever gave you the idea that I love to talk about tortoises?


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## onarock (Jun 26, 2011)

I love everyone. Yes, even you Tom. Now bring it on in for the real thing (big bear hugs for all)


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## stells (Jun 26, 2011)

Hug me brother...


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## John (Jun 26, 2011)

Man, where was the hug offer two hours ago when I was still covered in mud and ticks?


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## matt41gb (Jun 26, 2011)

That's better. 

-Matt


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## Jacqui (Jun 26, 2011)

onarock said:


> Interesting. Maybe from all the noises outside and the different environment. Do they spend more time in or out?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Depending upon which animal we are talking about and of course the weather that year, as a rule they start going out in April and come in late Sept/Oct. So just about 50/50 in and out. 

I think it is actually a more peaceful type of noise outside (birds, the wind, bugs, little traffic noise...except for the trains ever 15 min. ). Inside you have doors closing, people walking right next to you, fans and other machines in the house, plus the VCR).







squamata said:


> Man, where was the hug offer two hours ago when I was still covered in mud and ticks?



Would you be offering me a hug now? I am soaked with sweat. 

I don't think of us as JUST a forum either. I think of us as a family. Some times we laugh, some times we cry, some times we snap at each other, but at the end of the day, we are still family in spite of ourselves at times.


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## onarock (Jun 26, 2011)

Leopards . Have you given any thought on why they seem less shy. Are they on tables? Maybe you dont appear as large when they are on tables apposed to the ground. I dont know. Mine are always outside.


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## John (Jun 26, 2011)

Jacqui said:


> onarock said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting. Maybe from all the noises outside and the different environment. Do they spend more time in or out?
> ...



haha sure I ain't squeemish


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