# Tortoise Nest Temperature Data Collection



## Tom

I'm pleased to announce an "experiment" that I've been interested in for a long time. Everyone seems to have trouble artificially incubating South African tortoise species, yet the babies seem to have no trouble hatching out of the ground after 12-18 months in any variety of "Mediterranean" climates. Clearly, there are elements we don't understand, and the purpose of this data collection is to help us understand at least one of those elements and possibly draw some inference to some of the other under-understood elements.

I don't know that I would have ever gotten around to following through and getting this one done if it were left to me. At this point I must give credit where it is due. @Sterant decided to include me in his new Chersina Angulata Working Group. Solving the mysteries of this species and understanding how to get adults, eggs, and hatchlings to survive and thrive, and also starting a studbook for the species, are the priorities of the group. I can't thank Dan enough for including me, and renewing my passion for the species. The conversations I've had with Dan over the last year have contributed to much study and learning on my part, and gathering pieces to this puzzle has become a new obsession for me. Which is what brings me to:

@Markw84 and I are both students of tortoise biology and physiology. Mark has contributed greatly to my tortoise knowledge in several areas, but particularly in incubation technique and theory. We've had many conversations about night temp drops, gas exchange, moisture and humidity, diapause, and more. He and I both experiment with many of these factors and are trying to learn more. Anyone who enjoys reading this thread and learning about this subject needs to directly thank Mark. He is the one who finally made this happen.

What is this all about? This:



That little thing that is double bagged and wrapped in blue duct tape and hanging under the monkey hut is a data logger. It records the temperature. It takes a reading every 10 minutes and stores it in its memory. In about a year, we will pull it out from its always shaded location, unwrap it, plug it into the computer and it will tell us the temperature in that spot for the last year. Why do we care about that? Because it gives us a local ambient temperature to compare to the readings from the _other_ two data loggers. 


Know what this is?


Its a nest hole dug by an adult female South African Leopard tortoise. She dug a full nest hole and then walked away from it without dropping her eggs. Then it rained for a day. I dug out the loose stuff that the rain washed into the hole and took this measurement:


It was difficult to get the camera lens at the right level, but the nest is about 9" deep when its filled back in.


Data loggers 2 and 3 were also double bagged and then put into these little Tupperware containers. Then I taped some hay string to the containers to make them easier to find and retrieve after a year. Here it is in the hole:



And covered back up:



Here is where she went and finally laid her eggs the next day:




Here is a pic showing the whole area. There are nests under each of the little baskets in this picture and our data logger is in the hole near the stump down there:




More to come in the next post...


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## Tom

The third data logger also went into the same kind of Tupperware container, but I buried it in the same spot where one of my platynota nested last year. It was easy to dig out and I could feel the "bottom" where the female had dug down last year. This nest is shallower at about 6-6.5 inches deep.










These three data loggers belong to Mark. He set them up and "calibrated" them and then mailed them to me ready-to-go. All I had to do was put them in the ground. They went into the ground on December 9th, 2018. I figure we will dig them up around Christmas of 2019 and see what we've got. This will give us a complete picture of day and night temps, at these depths and at the surface for a full year with all four seasons. Of particular interest to me, Mark and Dan, is the day to night fluctuations during my scorching hot summers where day temps are almost always around 100 with spikes to 110-115 some days, and nights typically drop into the mid 60s. Also of interest will be the winter night lows in these nests, when above ground temps drop below freezing on occasion, followed by cold days in the 50s or low 60s.

It will be a year before we have any data to discuss, but I figured it would be fun to show everyone, and possibly a good conversation starter for anyone interested in the subject matter.


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## Yvonne G

I hope we can still find this thread in a year. I'm very interested.


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## wellington

It's interesting for sure. 
Just wondering though why you didn't bury one of the data loggers in with a nest of eggs?


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## Tom

wellington said:


> It's interesting for sure.
> Just wondering though why you didn't bury one of the data loggers in with a nest of eggs?


I don't want to disturb a nest and I'm not sure I could rebury it as well as the mom to give it 18 months of protection against the elements. And also because there isn't enough room to fit the container and the eggs. I don't want the logger on top of, or under the eggs. I wanted it sitting about where the eggs would be sitting. Just dumb luck that my girl dug me a perfect hole at the exact same depth that they lay their eggs.


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## kazjimmy

Wait for more update


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## Markw84

It has always been frustrating to me that such information is not available anywhere I can find. I have it for sea turtles. But I have never seen it for any tortoise species. It seems such a basic and easy to do experiment towards understanding incubation temperature needs. I do not live in an area where I can successfully ground hatch tortoise eggs. So when Tom and I continually discussed platynota and pardalis "pardalis" incubation and saw some pardalis he ground hatched, it became an obvious test at his ranch. So far, I have not been able to locate anyone in Mayanmar I can send data logger to for actual nest study in their home range. I have pictures of nest locations in the wide open spaces of the wildlife preserve there that has the largest population of breeding platynota. Looks quite similar to the nest locations Tom is using for this experiment.




We have all the meteorological data for the areas in the heart of the ranges of the species we are interested in. Here is the information for the heart of platynota natural range right now in the middle of egg laying (and diapause) season.




So if we can get data on how ground (nest) temperatures compare to ambient weather data for the same day, we can look at similar periods of daily ho/lows and extrapolate actual temperatures in a nest for species by knowing only weather data from their natural range.


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## Kapidolo Farms

The number of times I have brought these topics up, written out experimental protocol here on TFO, and found sci.lit on the topic makes me think you don't read posts so well guys.

Even Berekely (if I got that right) who ground hatches Manouria been doing tis for a a few years now. Your Edison to my Tesla Tom.


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## Markw84

Will said:


> The number of times I have brought these topics up, written out experimental protocol here on TFO, and found sci.lit on the topic makes me think you don't read posts so well guys.
> 
> Even Berekely (if I got that right) who ground hatches Manouria been doing tis for a a few years now. Your Edison to my Tesla Tom.



Perhaps you can link some? I go through all posts daily here for over four years now. Searched everything on incubation temps, diapause, nest temps etc etc. I have spent literally hundreds of hours search scientific papers and reading anything on nest temperatures. Would love any info you could lead me to.


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## Tom

Will said:


> The number of times I have brought these topics up, written out experimental protocol here on TFO, and found sci.lit on the topic makes me think you don't read posts so well guys.
> 
> Even Berekely (if I got that right) who ground hatches Manouria been doing tis for a a few years now. Your Edison to my Tesla Tom.


I spend a lot of time on this forum, but I can't catch them all. I'd love a link or some help finding whatever "Berekely" has posted on manouria ground temps. I don't usually read those threads since I don't have that species, and it only frustrates me to read how great they are.


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## wellington

Will said:


> The number of times I have brought these topics up, written out experimental protocol here on TFO, and found sci.lit on the topic makes me think you don't read posts so well guys.
> 
> Even Berekely (if I got that right) who ground hatches Manouria been doing tis for a a few years now. Your Edison to my Tesla Tom.


I say this in the nicest way and highest respect. You are hard to understand and to follow along sometimes. You can get very scientific (not sure that's the word I want) where the average person can not understand or follow along, so I believe interest is lost.


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## Sterant

This is a temperature graph of a wild homopus nest in South Africa sampled by Victor Loehr. I was interested in it because this particular site falls within the natural range of Chersina angulata. It is this chart which drove me to experiment with incubation night drops of 18 degrees F.


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## mark1

I've seen this for box turtles , blanding's turtles , softshell turtles and mud turtles , the graphs all look the same with very similar temps and temp swings , along with cooler temps in the beginning , warmer middle and end ….…. I do remember a study about constant temps versus temp variation out there also …another on temp sexed determination showed the difference in the temps between the eggs on the top of the nest versus the bottom of the nest …. i've used two aquarium heaters in those diy incubators , one on a timer set hotter to get higher temps in the day …….


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## Tom

Sterant said:


> This is a temperature graph of a wild homopus nest in South Africa sampled by Victor Loehr. I was interested in it because this particular site falls within the natural range of Chersina angulata. It is this chart which drove me to experiment with incubation night drops of 18 degrees F.
> View attachment 259662


This is cool, but why so few data points, I wonder. Looks like 23-24 data points in each 2 week period. Did they compile the data and list a daily or weekly high and low, and an average daily high and low?


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## Tom

mark1 said:


> I've seen this for box turtles , blanding's turtles , softshell turtles and mud turtles , the graphs all look the same with very similar temps and temp swings , along with cooler temps in the beginning , warmer middle and end ….…. I do remember a study about constant temps versus temp variation out there also …another on temp sexed determination showed the difference in the temps between the eggs on the top of the nest versus the bottom of the nest …. i've used two aquarium heaters in those diy incubators , one on a timer set hotter to get higher temps in the day …….


If you can find those numbers for these temperate species, it would be a great addition to this thread. Looking at our own ground temps in a variety of US habitats will be a good comparison for whatever numbers we get.


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## Markw84

Please post any data you can add to this! I have never seen anything close to the data sets I am looking for particularly for a diapause tortoise species.

From what I've seen in reading every paper I can find on nest temperatures, they do not "look the same" at all to me. Not for the questions I'm interested in answering. latitude. Sunny or shaded. Type of soil. Depth of nest. Avg temp swing during different phases of incubation. Degree hours under 70° during diapause phase for a successful nest. Degree hours over 85° for females. etc, etc. Manouria build above ground nests in piles they scrape together - so does decomposition add to temps? = different set of questions. The species we are looking at here are all diapause species. Other sets of questions.

Here's one of the best data sets I can find closest to this. It is for sea turtle nests over a season at a particular beach last years laying season. However, it does not include ambient temperatures and type of nest site chosen by female. You can see daily temp swings of only 2.5°F for most nests. Yet variation between a few of the nests like the one laid on July 30 - which I image would be a shallower nest. All of these are far different than @Sterant 's great added post about homopus. But those would be much shallower nests so interesting to see the tremendous temp swings vs. the sea turtles! You can also clearly see the effect of a few rain events on nest temps - June 9, June 21, July 18, July 30, Aug 10. ( I could not show the entire graph of the full season as I needed to spread it out enough to see daily swings)




More of what I want to see with this experiment is a data set similar to a very brief experiment I did this fall for a few days looking at what temps and humidity does in a location my platynota have chosen as a favorite hide in their outdoor enclosure. We have often talked about how different the micro climate is where tortoises actually live vs. meteorological data. But what is that difference really?? I wanted to see this graphically, so I placed a data logger in their favorite hiding location - with full sun exposure, but under a rather dense tuft of carex sedge that stands about 16" high. This is not in a burrow, or even dug a few inches into a pallet. This is simply pushed into the overhanging grass clump. I had already taken the platynota indoors for the year as temps were getting lower, but still good temp swings daily and fairly "dry" weather. This is for a 3 day period. Humidity stayed at 100% even though Daily "meteorological" humidity went from 30% daytime to 85% overnight - and the last day went from 24% to a high of only 50% humidity. Temps went from a daily high of about 84° to a low of 50° yet the "hide" only went from a high of 69° to a low of 58°.




From this experiment, just a few of the things we will be able to see = how much nest temperatures, at depths these particular species have their nest, really do vary as compared to ambient temps at the same time. Knowing the temperature profile of a day and week and month and how nests temperatures compare and then vary, we can extrapolate to what nests in other areas are likely doing by comparing similar daily/weekly temperature profiles. We will see how many degree hours under various levels actually produces successful hatches of pardalis with their needed diapause. We won't know the limits yet, but we will have a baseline of something that works.


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## Sterant

Tom said:


> This is cool, but why so few data points, I wonder. Looks like 23-24 data points in each 2 week period. Did they compile the data and list a daily or weekly high and low, and an average daily high and low?


I will reach out to the authors and try to find out the specifics


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## Tom

Markw84 said:


> Please post any data you can add to this! I have never seen anything close to the data sets I am looking for particularly for a diapause tortoise species.
> 
> From what I've seen in reading every paper I can find on nest temperatures, they do not "look the same" at all to me. Not for the questions I'm interested in answering. latitude. Sunny or shaded. Type of soil. Depth of nest. Avg temp swing during different phases of incubation. Degree hours under 70° during diapause phase for a successful nest. Degree hours over 85° for females. etc, etc. Manouria build above ground nests in piles they scrape together - so does decomposition add to temps? = different set of questions. The species we are looking at here are all diapause species. Other sets of questions.
> 
> Here's one of the best data sets I can find closest to this. It is for sea turtle nests over a season at a particular beach last years laying season. However, it does not include ambient temperatures and type of nest site chosen by female. You can see daily temp swings of only 2.5°F for most nests. Yet variation between a few of the nests like the one laid on July 30 - which I image would be a shallower nest. All of these are far different than @Sterant 's great added post about homopus. But those would be much shallower nests so interesting to see the tremendous temp swings vs. the sea turtles! You can also clearly see the effect of a few rain events on nest temps - June 9, June 21, July 18, July 30, Aug 10. ( I could not show the entire graph of the full season as I needed to spread it out enough to see daily swings)
> 
> View attachment 259707
> 
> 
> More of what I want to see with this experiment is a data set similar to a very brief experiment I did this fall for a few days looking at what temps and humidity does in a location my platynota have chosen as a favorite hide in their outdoor enclosure. We have often talked about how different the micro climate is where tortoises actually live vs. meteorological data. But what is that difference really?? I wanted to see this graphically, so I placed a data logger in their favorite hiding location - with full sun exposure, but under a rather dense tuft of carex sedge that stands about 16" high. This is not in a burrow, or even dug a few inches into a pallet. This is simply pushed into the overhanging grass clump. I had already taken the platynota indoors for the year as temps were getting lower, but still good temp swings daily and fairly "dry" weather. This is for a 3 day period. Humidity stayed at 100% even though Daily "meteorological" humidity went from 30% daytime to 85% overnight - and the last day went from 24% to a high of only 50% humidity. Temps went from a daily high of about 84° to a low of 50° yet the "hide" only went from a high of 69° to a low of 58°.
> 
> View attachment 259708
> 
> 
> From this experiment, just a few of the things we will be able to see = how much nest temperatures, at depths these particular species have their nest, really do vary as compared to ambient temps at the same time. Knowing the temperature profile of a day and week and month and how nests temperatures compare and then vary, we can extrapolate to what nests in other areas are likely doing by comparing similar daily/weekly temperature profiles.  We will see how many degree hours under various levels actually produces successful hatches of pardalis with their needed diapause. We won't know the limits yet, but we will have a baseline of something that works.


I only hit the "Like" button in this post because we don't have a "LOVE!!!" button to click on...

That second graph _really _tells a story.


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## CarolM

Yvonne G said:


> I hope we can still find this thread in a year. I'm very interested.


Yes me too.


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## Tom

CarolM said:


> Yes me too.


I don't know how to get them to you, but it would be AMAZING, if we could figure out a way to do this same thing in your garden. I see far more value in that for the Chersina project than doing it here in my area of Southern California. It will be great to see what happens with temperatures in the ground here, but it would be even better to see what temps do in an area that actually hatches Chersina in their native range!

@Markw84 is there a way to ship some data loggers to Carol? I'll pay for the loggers and shipping.

@CarolM would you be willing to dig some holes and bury some data loggers for a year?


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## CarolM

Tom said:


> I don't know how to get them to you, but it would be AMAZING, if we could figure out a way to do this same thing in your garden. I see far more value in that for the Chersina project than doing it here in my area of Southern California. It will be great to see what happens with temperatures in the ground here, but it would be even better to see what temps do in an area that actually hatches Chersina in their native range!
> 
> @Markw84 is there a way to ship some data loggers to Carol? I'll pay for the loggers and shipping.
> 
> @CarolM would you be willing to dig some holes and bury some data loggers for a year?


Absolutely.


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## CarolM

CarolM said:


> Absolutely.


I have a sensor push. I wonder if i buried it in the garden if it would work?


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## mark1

as far as "looking the same " what is meant by that is the overall appearance of the graphs even though they are from different parts of the world , with temp swings being largest near the beginning of the middle third , and the average temp consistently rising with smaller deviation between daily highs and lows being in the beginning and the end ………. I've never seen these tortoise ones , I've seen many for painted turtles , snapping turtles , box turtles , blanding's turtles , na wood turtles , spotted turtles , soft shell turtles …….. many of those studies were done in studying temp sex determination ..….. a blanding's one I remember was done here by me on the effects of nesting in soybean and corn fields , the turtles nest early in the spring and the crop grows and shades/cools their nest …na wood turtles was about providing artificial embankments for them to nest in … painted turtles had a pretty extensive study done by the university of Illinois …… I seen one on blanding's using roadsides to nest and what affect it had on sex ratios as they are microclimates of there own …… the graph for the speckled tortoise has at temp swings at one point of 40 degrees , box turtle nest can swing close to that , I've seen 35 degrees here by me …. there is a 20 degree swing in highs in a matter of 3-4 days for the speckled tortoise , box turtle nest I've seen reported to swing 18 degrees in highs in a 2 day period …….. they look similar to me in how erratic they can be ……. I do pay more attention to the ground temp and river temp in my area than most people ……… I do have some pdf's , not sure how to get the graphs off them or attach them ?I have one for smooth softshell nests on the cedar river in iowa , the nest are in a sandbar , at one point there is a 36 degree change in temp in 12 hours , the graph is similar to others i've seen with the largest swings in the beginning middle and the average temps consistently rising …… I don't pay much attention or look for nest here , I do put temp probes in hibernacula every year , don't record temps , but I check them often ……… I actually think what your doing will provide good information ……...


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## Markw84

sure - we can ship to @CarolM Costs about $36 to mail to South Africa - the same way and package I used to ship to you, @Tom. The logger is about $22 A Sensorpush is $49 here, not sure what they cost Carol there.
The Sensor Push may work, Carol, but you would have to be sure excess moisture does not ruin it buried in the ground. I would put it in a good ziplock baggie to test it for a few weeks. so the humidity reading would be of no use as it is enclosed in a baggie. The nice part of that sensorpush would be that you still should be able to get a good Bluetooth reading at the shallow depth of a chersina nest without digging it up. Also nice that you could also just email me a download file and we could compile data as we go.

Thoughts?? @Tom @CarolM @Sterant


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## Sterant

Markw84 said:


> sure - we can ship to @CarolM Costs about $36 to mail to South Africa - the same way and package I used to ship to you, @Tom. The logger is about $22 A Sensorpush is $49 here, not sure what they cost Carol there.
> The Sensor Push may work, Carol, but you would have to be sure excess moisture does not ruin it buried in the ground. I would put it in a good ziplock baggie to test it for a few weeks. so the humidity reading would be of no use as it is enclosed in a baggie. The nice part of that sensorpush would be that you still should be able to get a good Bluetooth reading at the shallow depth of a chersina nest without digging it up. Also nice that you could also just email me a download file and we could compile data as we go.
> 
> Thoughts?? @Tom @CarolM @Sterant


I have done quick tests with Sensorpush units underground. I used a very small tupperware container upside down. I used the double faced tape that comes with the unit to stick it inside the upside down tupperware container and I buried it. The tupperware acts like a diving bell trapping air inside so the sensor is exposed to the temperature and humidity without directly touching the dirt or being soaked when it rains. I don't know if this will somehow introduce an error into the study, but it's worth a try.


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## Tom

Sterant said:


> I have done quick tests with Sensorpush units underground. I used a very small tupperware container upside down. I used the double faced tape that comes with the unit to stick it inside the upside down tupperware container and I buried it. The tupperware acts like a diving bell trapping air inside so the sensor is exposed to the temperature and humidity without directly touching the dirt or being soaked when it rains. I don't know if this will somehow introduce an error into the study, but it's worth a try.


That's pretty ingenious. I'd be willing to give it a try.

Will it work with Bluetooth on my phone and store data until my phone comes into range? That would be ideal, and we'd get data immediately instead of waiting a year. Further, the humidity data is of great interest to me here, especially due to my ultra dry climate.


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## Tom

Markw84 said:


> sure - we can ship to @CarolM Costs about $36 to mail to South Africa - the same way and package I used to ship to you, @Tom. The logger is about $22 A Sensorpush is $49 here, not sure what they cost Carol there.
> The Sensor Push may work, Carol, but you would have to be sure excess moisture does not ruin it buried in the ground. I would put it in a good ziplock baggie to test it for a few weeks. so the humidity reading would be of no use as it is enclosed in a baggie. The nice part of that sensorpush would be that you still should be able to get a good Bluetooth reading at the shallow depth of a chersina nest without digging it up. Also nice that you could also just email me a download file and we could compile data as we go.
> 
> Thoughts?? @Tom @CarolM @Sterant


Mark, if you'll get some more data loggers and calibrate them, I'll send you the money immediately for international postage and the cost of the loggers. $66+$36 = $102. I'll mail or PayPal it ASAP. Text me the mailing or PayPal address whenever you are ready.


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## CarolM

Markw84 said:


> sure - we can ship to @CarolM Costs about $36 to mail to South Africa - the same way and package I used to ship to you, @Tom. The logger is about $22 A Sensorpush is $49 here, not sure what they cost Carol there.
> The Sensor Push may work, Carol, but you would have to be sure excess moisture does not ruin it buried in the ground. I would put it in a good ziplock baggie to test it for a few weeks. so the humidity reading would be of no use as it is enclosed in a baggie. The nice part of that sensorpush would be that you still should be able to get a good Bluetooth reading at the shallow depth of a chersina nest without digging it up. Also nice that you could also just email me a download file and we could compile data as we go.
> 
> Thoughts?? @Tom @CarolM @Sterant


Cool. I will try the sensor push for a while and see what measurements it gives. Until the data loggers come.


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## CarolM

Sterant said:


> I have done quick tests with Sensorpush units underground. I used a very small tupperware container upside down. I used the double faced tape that comes with the unit to stick it inside the upside down tupperware container and I buried it. The tupperware acts like a diving bell trapping air inside so the sensor is exposed to the temperature and humidity without directly touching the dirt or being soaked when it rains. I don't know if this will somehow introduce an error into the study, but it's worth a try.


More than one method is always good. And we can get readings without digging it up.


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## CarolM

I am not currently home at the momment but will bury the sensor push once home. I will need to clear the current data on it first, so there is no confusion and then we can start recording.


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## CarolM

Tom said:


> Mark, if you'll get some more data loggers and calibrate them, I'll send you the money immediately for international postage and the cost of the loggers. $66+$36 = $102. I'll mail or PayPal it ASAP. Text me the mailing or PayPal address whenever you are ready.


Just note that it takes a long time for things to get here. [emoji85]


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## Sterant

Tom said:


> That's pretty ingenious. I'd be willing to give it a try.
> 
> Will it work with Bluetooth on my phone and store data until my phone comes into range? That would be ideal, and we'd get data immediately instead of waiting a year. Further, the humidity data is of great interest to me here, especially due to my ultra dry climate.


Mine was buried about 4" down and I could still connect via Bluetooth, so we should be able to read data real-time.


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## CarolM

Okay. Sensor push in the ground. Buried it in a tupperware, inside a ziplock bag. Buried it very close to where my female normally lays her eggs.
11cm down.


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## Sterant

Tom said:


> Mark, if you'll get some more data loggers and calibrate them, I'll send you the money immediately for international postage and the cost of the loggers. $66+$36 = $102. I'll mail or PayPal it ASAP. Text me the mailing or PayPal address whenever you are ready.


I'll happily split the cost with you Tom.


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## CarolM

CarolM said:


> Okay. Sensor push in the ground. Buried it in a tupperware, inside a ziplock bag. Buried it very close to where my female normally lays her eggs.
> 11cm down.
> View attachment 259758
> View attachment 259759
> View attachment 259760
> View attachment 259761
> View attachment 259762
> View attachment 259763


I will go and check in an hour and see if I can pick up readings.


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## Sterant

CarolM said:


> Okay. Sensor push in the ground. Buried it in a tupperware, inside a ziplock bag. Buried it very close to where my female normally lays her eggs.
> 11cm down.
> View attachment 259758
> View attachment 259759
> View attachment 259760
> View attachment 259761
> View attachment 259762
> View attachment 259763


Carol - If you want humidity data (which we do) you should get rid of the zip-lock bag and remove the top of the tupperware. Just bury the tupper ware container upside-down with the sensor inside so the ground air can get to the sensor......unless you're just testing connectivity for now.


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## CarolM

Sterant said:


> Carol - If you want humidity data (which we do) you should get rid of the zip-lock bag and remove the top of the tupperware. Just bury the tupper ware container upside-down with the sensor inside so the ground air can get to the sensor......unless you're just testing connectivity for now.


Ahh. Okay. I will leave it as it is for an hour and then take a reading to see connectivity and then do as you have advised above.


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## CarolM

Sterant said:


> Carol - If you want humidity data (which we do) you should get rid of the zip-lock bag and remove the top of the tupperware. Just bury the tupper ware container upside-down with the sensor inside so the ground air can get to the sensor......unless you're just testing connectivity for now.


Is it deep enough? I haven't measured how deep they bury their eggs. There is currently an egg in the ground there, but I don't want to dig it up as I won't be able to put it back correctly nor have I had any success with artificial incubation. I tried burying it as close to what I remember previous depths were when I observed them laying.


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## CarolM

CarolM said:


> Ahh. Okay. I will leave it as it is for an hour and then take a reading to see connectivity and then do as you have advised above.


Okay. The reading when underground in the bag. 1st and second is the hour reading. 3rd the day reading.
I have now taken it out of the bag and placed it directly on the soil with the Tupperware over for protection. And will take another reading in about an hour or two.


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## Markw84

Tom said:


> That's pretty ingenious. I'd be willing to give it a try.
> 
> Will it work with Bluetooth on my phone and store data until my phone comes into range? That would be ideal, and we'd get data immediately instead of waiting a year. Further, the humidity data is of great interest to me here, especially due to my ultra dry climate.



All you do is download the Sensorpush app on your iPhone. To sync the sensor, you simply click to add a sensor and then hold the sensor over the iPhone screen. It syncs then automatically. I have 13 sensors synced to mine all in the one app with a list on the first screen.

All you have to do is be within Bluetooth range and the app will download data to your iPhone. It does store up to 20 days worth of data in the device itself, so if you are not in Bluetooth range for a week or two, it will upload that past data to your phone next time you are in range. The app on your phone stores data for as long as you want - years if you want.



Tom said:


> Mark, if you'll get some more data loggers and calibrate them, I'll send you the money immediately for international postage and the cost of the loggers. $66+$36 = $102. I'll mail or PayPal it ASAP. Text me the mailing or PayPal address whenever you are ready.


 I have already ordered 3 more for Carol. They should be here Wednesday. I will calibrate and set data intervals and mail to Carol then.

Payment? How about next time I come down you buy me a lunch? Whenever I meet Dan he can by me a drink! I'm interested in this data too!


----------



## Markw84

CarolM said:


> Is it deep enough? I haven't measured how deep they bury their eggs. There is currently an egg in the ground there, but I don't want to dig it up as I won't be able to put it back correctly nor have I had any success with artificial incubation. I tried burying it as close to what I remember previous depths were when I observed them laying.



My thinking is to be sure the same amount of soil depth is on top of the container as would be on top of the egg. Pack it down firmly as tortoises take hours packing the soil above an egg chamber. Be sure it is the same type of native soil that a tortoise is using as soil type makes a difference as well. Not sure if humidity will be totally accurate as a tortoise releases quite a bit of water in a nest as she digs. All of the species I work with also make a nice mud plug to seal the top of the egg chamber to also protect and would keep in humidity. But with a single egg, perhaps Dan has better insight on how a Chersina lays and constructs the nest.

Do you have another sensor that we can get a concurrent graph of ambient outdoor air and humidity? That would be awesome. I build graphs like the one earlier in this post with the data from the two sensors aligned by time for comparison. Perhaps you could email a download file every few weeks or so?

Thank you so much for doing this!!!!!!


----------



## Sterant

Markw84 said:


> My thinking is to be sure the same amount of soil depth is on top of the container as would be on top of the egg. Pack it down firmly as tortoises take hours packing the soil above an egg chamber. Be sure it is the same type of native soil that a tortoise is using as soil type makes a difference as well. Not sure if humidity will be totally accurate as a tortoise releases quite a bit of water in a nest as she digs. All of the species I work with also make a nice mud plug to seal the top of the egg chamber to also protect and would keep in humidity. But with a single egg, perhaps Dan has better insight on how a Chersina lays and constructs the nest.
> 
> Do you have another sensor that we can get a concurrent graph of ambient outdoor air and humidity? That would be awesome. I build graphs like the one earlier in this post with the data from the two sensors aligned by time for comparison. Perhaps you could email a download file every few weeks or so?
> 
> Thank you so much for doing this!!!!!!


They don't seem to dig a flask shaped nest. The 15 nests I saw this year were all about 4" deep and were just straight down holes. the egg was deposited and then buried. they do release a lot of urine during the process so the egg and surrounding dirt is generally soaked. I am literally watching one nest right now!


----------



## CarolM

Markw84 said:


> My thinking is to be sure the same amount of soil depth is on top of the container as would be on top of the egg. Pack it down firmly as tortoises take hours packing the soil above an egg chamber. Be sure it is the same type of native soil that a tortoise is using as soil type makes a difference as well. Not sure if humidity will be totally accurate as a tortoise releases quite a bit of water in a nest as she digs. All of the species I work with also make a nice mud plug to seal the top of the egg chamber to also protect and would keep in humidity. But with a single egg, perhaps Dan has better insight on how a Chersina lays and constructs the nest.
> 
> Do you have another sensor that we can get a concurrent graph of ambient outdoor air and humidity? That would be awesome. I build graphs like the one earlier in this post with the data from the two sensors aligned by time for comparison. Perhaps you could email a download file every few weeks or so?
> 
> Thank you so much for doing this!!!!!!


You are more than welcome. I cannot help financially but I can certainly help with my time instead.

Okay. I have buried it in the same area where my female likes to lay her eggs, so the sun, water etc. That the eggs get exposed to should in theory be exactly the same for the sensor. Except for any extra moisture mom tort would put in the nest while constructing it.

I wish I had another sensor but unfortunately I have only the one. I was using it in my tort closed chamber and have taken it out for use in this experiment. I will have a look and see if I can find something that I can use outside for an above ground or I'll bite the bullet and get another sensor push.


----------



## CarolM

Okay a quick reading with the sensor under the tupperware and touching the soil directly.
After this I will export the data to excel and email you the info. In what interval periods would you like the data?
And if you can pm me your email addresses then I can email the data to you. Dan I should already have your email address.


----------



## Markw84

CarolM said:


> Okay a quick reading with the sensor under the tupperware and touching the soil directly.
> After this I will export the data to excel and email you the info. In what interval periods would you like the data?
> And if you can pm me your email addresses then I can email the data to you. Dan I should already have your email address.
> View attachment 259777
> View attachment 259778
> View attachment 259779
> View attachment 259780


Thanks, Carol. I use 15 minute intervals to export. I will PM my email address. Really only need exports every 2 weeks at the most frequent.


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## CarolM

Markw84 said:


> Thanks, Carol. I use 15 minute intervals to export. I will PM my email address. Really only need exports every 2 weeks at the most frequent.


Okay. Two weeks it is.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Here is the first time I brought up that changing the temp over a 24 hour cycle might 'make the egg breath', notice the post two posts down.
https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threa...teenagers-question.129317/page-2#post-1208686

The second time, in a description of diapause.
https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/live-naked-people.126107/page-12#post-1378890

and most recently, notice the post just above.
https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/2018-incubation-experiment.165106/page-2#post-1594285

FWIW, I have a couple data loggers and the reader.

If any one wants to sort out the temps of their ground hatching situation I'll get the loggers to you. I got part of a season of in ground data from 'Berkeley' who had posted much from 2015 to 2017, then just drops off.


----------



## Markw84

Will said:


> Here is the first time I brought up that changing the temp over a 24 hour cycle might 'make the egg breath', notice the post two posts down.
> https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threa...teenagers-question.129317/page-2#post-1208686
> 
> The second time, in a description of diapause.
> https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/live-naked-people.126107/page-12#post-1378890
> 
> and most recently, notice the post just above.
> https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/2018-incubation-experiment.165106/page-2#post-1594285
> 
> FWIW, I have a couple data loggers and the reader.
> 
> If any one wants to sort out the temps of their ground hatching situation I'll get the loggers to you. I got part of a season of in ground data from 'Berkeley' who had posted much from 2015 to 2017, then just drops off.



I'm confused. Not being confrontational. I value your opinions and input. I recall all of the posts you reference above. I had even copy and pasted one and saved in my documents and research files. But they all seem to point to a need for a study like this and the value and insight it could provide. The idea of fluctuating temps facilitating exchange in/out of the egg has great potential value. Wouldn't trying to quantify what actually happens in a "natural' nest be of great value? Let alone better understanding of diapause, TSD, etc. It seems such a basic but totally missing baseline from which so much could be then garnered.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

FWIW, I have a couple data loggers and the reader.

If any one wants to sort out the temps of their ground hatching situation I'll get the loggers to you.


----------



## Olddog

I have no knowledge of the species involved and the following may be without merit for your purposes. From an experimental design standpoint, the following graph strongly suggests to me the potential benefit of placing sensors with nesting eggs as well as simultaneously monitoring outdoor temperatures.



This data is from sensors placed in and about 24 nests of Galapagos tortoises on Santa Cruz at varying altitudes. 29 nests were followed and 294 eggs weighed and measured. Temperature logging "i-buttons" were placed in 24 of the nests, in some cases at the top and bottom of the eggs, in others at the middle. The eggs were removed and replaced in the nests with the same order and orientation as laid. For some nests, holes were dug to the same depth as the nest and sensors placed for controls.

Please note the nest/egg temperature was higher than outside temperature in the month prior to hatching. This chart is from an interim report and was not included in the final report I shared previously. I would speculate this increase in nest temperature to higher than outside temperature in the nest over the month prior to hatching is likely due to hatchling metabolic activity. This would suggest value in monitoring nest/egg temperatures.


----------



## Tom

Olddog said:


> I have no knowledge of the species involved and the following may be without merit for your purposes. From an experimental design standpoint, the following graph strongly suggests to me the potential benefit of placing sensors with nesting eggs as well as simultaneously monitoring outdoor temperatures.
> 
> This data is from sensors placed in and about 24 nests of Galapagos tortoises on Santa Cruz at varying altitudes. 29 nests were followed and 294 eggs weighed and measured. Temperature logging "i-buttons" were placed in 24 of the nests, in some cases at the top and bottom of the eggs, in others at the middle. The eggs were removed and replaced in the nests with the same order and orientation as laid. For some nests, holes were dug to the same depth as the nest and sensors placed for controls.
> 
> Please note the nest/egg temperature was higher than outside temperature in the month prior to hatching. This chart is from an interim report and was not included in the final report I shared previously. I would speculate this increase in nest temperature to higher than outside temperature in the nest over the month prior to hatching is likely due to hatchling metabolic activity. This would suggest value in monitoring nest/egg temperatures.


Interesting data. Looks like this is a monthly average temp, and it seems to have only varied a few degrees, from around 23 to 28C over an eight month span. That in itself is pretty interesting too. I've wondered about how homogenous average temperatures are right there on the equator in the Galapagos islands. This graph lends some insight.

I'm more interested in the overnight lows compared to the ambient, and the day time highs, compared to ambient. I also want to know highs and lows inside the nests over the course of incubation in my area, and in the native range of each species.

Being warmer inside the nest in the last month of incubation is interesting. I seriously doubt that a few little ectotherms are generating any heat with their movements. I'd guess this was a function of overnight lows dropping and the insulation properties of the nest. I certainly don't have data for this, but based on everything I've learned, it just isn't likely that they are generating their own heat. The only ectotherms this has ever been recorded in is great white sharks, mako sharks, and large blue fin tuna. I've also seen one man who thinks that fermentation in the gut of large sulcatas is generating some heat, but I'm not convinced of that yet either. This certainly wouldn't be the case with baby galops, but I list it as a possibility of an ectotherm that is generating its own heat.


----------



## wccmog10

Tom said:


> I don't want to disturb a nest and I'm not sure I could rebury it as well as the mom to give it 18 months of protection against the elements. And also because there isn't enough room to fit the container and the eggs. I don't want the logger on top of, or under the eggs. I wanted it sitting about where the eggs would be sitting. Just dumb luck that my girl dug me a perfect hole at the exact same depth that they lay their eggs.



I am working on reading this thread, so I may be restating something that has already been said later on- but I do know that they make remote sensors for data loggers (at least the brand my faculty advisor used). He would bury a small tuberware box with two data loggers in it, with these remote plugs exiting through a hole he drilled and siliconed once the wire was through. He would then just put the end of the wire, which is now the location that temperature is being measured, in amongst the eggs. There is space between the eggs, so you can just sort of place the end of the probe in the middle of the eggs. Then he would re-bury the whole thing. After I finish reading I will try to post a few papers he has written. Most of what he is/was doing was investigating TSD pivotal temperature, but maybe it could be a little bit helpful to the discussion. 

Another thing- I agree with you @Tom not wanting to disturb a SA leopard nest. But the nest chamber she didn’t use, she dug and didn’t use for a reason. Something about it she didn’t like. But I do agree that it is the best option- other than digging into an actual nest. Same thing goes for just burying data loggers in the ground at the right depth. The female tortoise is choosing the exact spot she likes for her eggs to go. There are so many micro climates for her to choose from. And I don’t think humans can choose correctly. So I think it’s a great place to start- but temperatures from successful nestings would be much better. But of course I say all of this knowing that sometimes- you just have to get the best information that you can. This is not a question that will be answered overnight. It will take time.


----------



## Tom

wccmog10 said:


> But the nest chamber she didn’t use, she dug and didn’t use for a reason. Something about it she didn’t like.



This female has a habit of doing this. Test holes. There are 10 other nests within 5 feet of this one and two literally with a foot on each side of this one.


----------



## Markw84

about disturbing nests...

Every female I have worked with from aquatic to tortoise is oblivious to surroundings once they start laying. Many times I have moved them aside to retrieve eggs as they are laying and they simply continue on when I put them back. I normally wait til I think they are done, and move them aside, then get the eggs. I place her back and she always continues as normal. It would be easy for me to slip a data logger or Sensorpush into a nest as a female is laying. She would just position it like one of her eggs. Or, I could put it under a few eggs already laid and she would simply continue. That way she is plugging and covering the nest normally.


----------



## Yvonne G

Tom said:


> This female has a habit of doing this. Test holes. There are 10 other nests within 5 feet of this one and two literally with a foot on each side of this one.





Tom said:


> This female has a habit of doing this. Test holes. There are 10 other nests within 5 feet of this one and two literally with a foot on each side of this one.


My SA leopard female digs many, many test holes before she actually lays any eggs, and all the holes are very deep, with a 'chamber' at the bottom. I've wondered if it's an ingrained ploy to 'fool' any predators that are watching her dig.


----------



## Markw84

Olddog said:


> I would speculate this increase in nest temperature to higher than outside temperature in the nest over the month prior to hatching is likely due to hatchling metabolic activity. This would suggest value in monitoring nest/egg temperatures.





Tom said:


> Interesting data. Looks like this is a monthly average temp, and it seems to have only varied a few degrees, from around 23 to 28C over an eight month span. That in itself is pretty interesting too. I've wondered about how homogenous average temperatures are right there on the equator in the Galapagos islands. This graph lends some insight.
> 
> I'm more interested in the overnight lows compared to the ambient, and the day time highs, compared to ambient. I also want to know highs and lows inside the nests over the course of incubation in my area, and in the native range of each species.
> 
> Being warmer inside the nest in the last month of incubation is interesting. I seriously doubt that a few little ectotherms are generating any heat with their movements. I'd guess this was a function of overnight lows dropping and the insulation properties of the nest. I certainly don't have data for this, but based on everything I've learned, it just isn't likely that they are generating their own heat. The only ectotherms this has ever been recorded in is great white sharks, mako sharks, and large blue fin tuna. I've also seen one man who thinks that fermentation in the gut of large sulcatas is generating some heat, but I'm not convinced of that yet either. This certainly wouldn't be the case with baby galops, but I list it as a possibility of an ectotherm that is generating its own heat.



I have read studies showing increases in nest temperature due to the metabolic activity of the developing eggs. This increases as the size of the embryo increases. Some sea turtles have been shown to increase their core body temp through metabolic activity. Incubating pythons have been shown to generate body heat as they twitch their muscles laying on top of a nest...

It seems many scientists are favoring the term poikilotherms as opposed to ectotherms or cold blooded. A poikilotherm is an animal that cannot maintain a consistent body temperature and relies on the environment to help control their temperature. They do produce some heat through metabolism, but nowhere near enough to maintain a stable temperature. The other term is homeotherm - and animal that can maintain a stable body temperature metabolically.


----------



## Markw84

Yvonne G said:


> My SA leopard female digs many, many test holes before she actually lays any eggs, and all the holes are very deep, with a 'chamber' at the bottom. I've wondered if it's an ingrained ploy to 'fool' any predators that are watching her dig.


Several abandoned nests that seemed complete that I examined often has a rock or other obstruction somewhere on the side of the nest chamber. I had always speculated they ran into the obstruction and simply did not feel the chamber was of the correct final size or perhaps did not like the feel of something sticking into the nest chamber.


----------



## Markw84

Olddog said:


> I have no knowledge of the species involved and the following may be without merit for your purposes. From an experimental design standpoint, the following graph strongly suggests to me the potential benefit of placing sensors with nesting eggs as well as simultaneously monitoring outdoor temperatures.
> View attachment 259844
> 
> 
> This data is from sensors placed in and about 24 nests of Galapagos tortoises on Santa Cruz at varying altitudes. 29 nests were followed and 294 eggs weighed and measured. Temperature logging "i-buttons" were placed in 24 of the nests, in some cases at the top and bottom of the eggs, in others at the middle. The eggs were removed and replaced in the nests with the same order and orientation as laid. For some nests, holes were dug to the same depth as the nest and sensors placed for controls.
> 
> Please note the nest/egg temperature was higher than outside temperature in the month prior to hatching. This chart is from an interim report and was not included in the final report I shared previously. I would speculate this increase in nest temperature to higher than outside temperature in the nest over the month prior to hatching is likely due to hatchling metabolic activity. This would suggest value in monitoring nest/egg temperatures.



Although I do believe there is some small amount of heat generated by developing embryos, I would think the bulk of the difference here is that we are looking at a month where outside temperatures are dropping as opposed to all the previous months where average monthly temperatures are rising. The more stable ground temperatures would be effecting this more. Ground temperatures lag behind air temperatures in the annual change. At the depth of a galop nest this could easily be what is at work here. with overall rising temps the ground temp will be below air temp. When temperatures are falling, ground temps are warmer than air temps.


----------



## wccmog10

Tom said:


> This female has a habit of doing this. Test holes. There are 10 other nests within 5 feet of this one and two literally with a foot on each side of this one.



Wow! That is some high density nesting.


----------



## Tom

wccmog10 said:


> Wow! That is some high density nesting.


I starting using the baskets primarily so they wouldn't dig up each other's, or their own, nests.


----------



## wccmog10

Tom said:


> I starting using the baskets primarily so they wouldn't dig up each other's, or their own, nests.



Good thinking. I’m picturing arribadas in Mexico with Kemp’s Ridleys. Back when the arribadas were going strong (I don’t know what there status really is now) the females would dig each other’s nests up. There were literally so many turtles nesting there was not enough room.


----------



## CarolM

I just had a thought, and I think it might throw off the humidity readings. The watering of my garden. ! So I am not sure how accurate the humidity readings will be.


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## Markw84

CarolM said:


> I just had a thought, and I think it might throw off the humidity readings. The watering of my garden. ! So I am not sure how accurate the humidity readings will be.


Although not totally natural if it produces a successful hatch from the egg nearby, it is still very useful data. Exact, timeline data of conditions that work.


----------



## CarolM

Markw84 said:


> Although not totally natural if it produces a successful hatch from the egg nearby, it is still very useful data. Exact, timeline data of conditions that work.


Okay. There has actually been an egg placed very near the spot I buried the sensor push. Which should be hatching sometime between March and April.


----------



## CarolM

CarolM said:


> Okay. There has actually been an egg placed very near the spot I buried the sensor push. Which should be hatching sometime between March and April.


Oops. Sorry did not read your comment properly. Re the egg nearby.


----------



## CarolM

Just a teaser.


----------



## kingsley

Merry Christmas all!!! I want to take a few data loggers to Sri Lanka next year and have them in key areas that have always puzzled me. We have found many a Elegans hatchlings in these areas but according to the researchers the areas are usually completely flooded during the rains. I have always wondered how the ova survive submersed in these areas and what temps the nest sites drop down to. Can the data loggers work submersed?


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## kingsley

I am talking long term in a water proof setup?


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## kingsley

Here is another product that i purchased for nest monitoring . The company is based out of Utah. Monnit , I think if Toms Paradalis nests are closer to his home we can get some exact data From the nest itself!!! Without much disturbance to the nest at all . Add a micro camera with a light we can candle the eggs on a routine basis and get an idea when embryonic development starts. I am more than willing to ship the sensors to Tom.


----------



## CarolM

Markw84 said:


> My thinking is to be sure the same amount of soil depth is on top of the container as would be on top of the egg. Pack it down firmly as tortoises take hours packing the soil above an egg chamber. Be sure it is the same type of native soil that a tortoise is using as soil type makes a difference as well. Not sure if humidity will be totally accurate as a tortoise releases quite a bit of water in a nest as she digs. All of the species I work with also make a nice mud plug to seal the top of the egg chamber to also protect and would keep in humidity. But with a single egg, perhaps Dan has better insight on how a Chersina lays and constructs the nest.
> 
> Do you have another sensor that we can get a concurrent graph of ambient outdoor air and humidity? That would be awesome. I build graphs like the one earlier in this post with the data from the two sensors aligned by time for comparison. Perhaps you could email a download file every few weeks or so?
> 
> Thank you so much for doing this!!!!!!


I bit the bullet and ordered another sensor push. It should arrive around the 3rd of Jan. Which I will put outside above ground so that you can compare it to the one underground.


----------



## Sterant

Hey guys. Merry Christmas!! sampling tortoise nests where I live will be useless but I will volunteer to take everyone’s raw data and organize it into publishable reports. Carole’s data and Tom’s data will be very useful for the CAWG. Kingsley’s SriLankan data will be fantastic as well.


----------



## wccmog10

kingsley said:


> Merry Christmas all!!! I want to take a few data loggers to Sri Lanka next year and have them in key areas that have always puzzled me. We have found many a Elegans hatchlings in these areas but according to the researchers the areas are usually completely flooded during the rains. I have always wondered how the ova survive submersed in these areas and what temps the nest sites drop down to. Can the data loggers work submersed?



The data loggers that we used for research, we would put them into these pvc housings (they were about 3 inches in diameter and 4 or 5 inches tall) with dry rite. The dry rite is a desiccant that would change color if it was exposed to moisture, so that you would know if your data loggers got wet. We completely submerged these for over a year in a few cases. We tied a string to the loggers housing, and tied the other end to a concrete block or root/tree and left it completely submerged to get water temperature of the river. So- if you seal it correctly, I don’t see why you couldn’t completely submerge the loggers you are working with. You just have to be prepared to loose the logger, if the housing fails.


----------



## kingsley

Sterant said:


> I'll happily split the cost with you Tom.



I can help too.


----------



## kingsley

Sterant said:


> They don't seem to dig a flask shaped nest. The 15 nests I saw this year were all about 4" deep and were just straight down holes. the egg was deposited and then buried. they do release a lot of urine during the process so the egg and surrounding dirt is generally soaked. I am literally watching one nest right now!



Agree , The nests of my females were very shallow.


----------



## kingsley

wccmog10 said:


> The data loggers that we used for research, we would put them into these pvc housings (they were about 3 inches in diameter and 4 or 5 inches tall) with dry rite. The dry rite is a desiccant that would change color if it was exposed to moisture, so that you would know if your data loggers got wet. We completely submerged these for over a year in a few cases. We tied a string to the loggers housing, and tied the other end to a concrete block or root/tree and left it completely submerged to get water temperature of the river. So- if you seal it correctly, I don’t see why you couldn’t completely submerge the loggers you are working with. You just have to be prepared to loose the logger, if the housing fails.


Do you have any pics of the housings? We could completely seal the logger in a piece of pvc pipe and two end caps. 
Pelican makes small dry cases that might work , but will shut off the humidity .


----------



## CarolM

Merry Christmas. I hope you all have a good.


----------



## wccmog10

kingsley said:


> Do you have any pics of the housings? We could completely seal the logger in a piece of pvc pipe and two end caps.
> Pelican makes small dry cases that might work , but will shut off the humidity .



I can’t remember the brand names and such, my research didn’t directly involve the data loggers. I’ve sent a few messages to people to try and get the brands and such. I’ll post whatever information I can. Yes- no humidity data. These loggers were temp only. I don’t think they were capable of humidity.


----------



## Markw84

Sterant said:


> Hey guys. Merry Christmas!! sampling tortoise nests where I live will be useless but I will volunteer to take everyone’s raw data and organize it into publishable reports. Carole’s data and Tom’s data will be very useful for the CAWG. Kingsley’s SriLankan data will be fantastic as well.


@kingsley Do you have some raw data for Sri Lankan nests? Could I possibly get the raw data from the data loggers as well. I am compiling a set of charts from as many species as possible.


----------



## Markw84

@CarolM I have 3 data loggers all set and ready to go to you. I have been ill the past few days and with all the holiday rush, should get them mailed to you Monday. They estimate with the holidays it may take about 10 days for you to get them. It is postal service so sent to your home address.

They are already running and set to record every 30 minutes. That give a great data set of daily swings and will record for up to 666 days - plenty long. all you need to do is place 2 in nest locations (for redundancy) and one for ambient air recording.

I love that you have the sensorpush also running now. It will give us readings as we go instead of having to wait to retrieve the data loggers at the end before we see any data. 

Thank you! And... Merry Christmas to you!


----------



## wccmog10

wccmog10 said:


> I can’t remember the brand names and such, my research didn’t directly involve the data loggers. I’ve sent a few messages to people to try and get the brands and such. I’ll post whatever information I can. Yes- no humidity data. These loggers were temp only. I don’t think they were capable of humidity.



The brand was hobo. 

I think this is the website to purchase them is:
https://www.onsetcomp.com/

It looks like they have come out with new models and stuff, I do not see what we used offered for sale anymore. They have data loggers for all sorts of things.


----------



## CarolM

Markw84 said:


> @CarolM I have 3 data loggers all set and ready to go to you. I have been ill the past few days and with all the holiday rush, should get them mailed to you Monday. They estimate with the holidays it may take about 10 days for you to get them. It is postal service so sent to your home address.
> 
> They are already running and set to record every 30 minutes. That give a great data set of daily swings and will record for up to 666 days - plenty long. all you need to do is place 2 in nest locations (for redundancy) and one for ambient air recording.
> 
> I love that you have the sensorpush also running now. It will give us readings as we go instead of having to wait to retrieve the data loggers at the end before we see any data.
> 
> Thank you! And... Merry Christmas to you!


Thank you Mark. I will keep an eye out for them.


----------



## CarolM

Markw84 said:


> @CarolM I have 3 data loggers all set and ready to go to you. I have been ill the past few days and with all the holiday rush, should get them mailed to you Monday. They estimate with the holidays it may take about 10 days for you to get them. It is postal service so sent to your home address.
> 
> They are already running and set to record every 30 minutes. That give a great data set of daily swings and will record for up to 666 days - plenty long. all you need to do is place 2 in nest locations (for redundancy) and one for ambient air recording.
> 
> I love that you have the sensorpush also running now. It will give us readings as we go instead of having to wait to retrieve the data loggers at the end before we see any data.
> 
> Thank you! And... Merry Christmas to you!


I am more than happy to help. Please just let me know if you are sending them to the street address I gave or the P.O. Box address so that I know where to look out for them. As the street address is my work address and the P.O. Box address is my personal box at the post office.


----------



## kingsley

Markw84 said:


> @kingsley Do you have some raw data for Sri Lankan nests? Could I possibly get the raw data from the data loggers as well. I am compiling a set of charts from as many species as possible.


Hi Mark, I have no nest data on hand but will try to get you the information currently available if the have any at all. If not you are more than welcome to what we get in the future. My focus is an area that gets completely flooded during the monsoons for days on end that produces lots of babies.


----------



## Olddog

Olddog said:


> I have no knowledge of the species involved and the following may be without merit for your purposes. From an experimental design standpoint, the following graph strongly suggests to me the potential benefit of placing sensors with nesting eggs as well as simultaneously monitoring outdoor temperatures.
> View attachment 259844





Markw84 said:


> Although I do believe there is some small amount of heat generated by developing embryos, I would think the bulk of the difference here is that we are looking at a month where outside temperatures are dropping as opposed to all the previous months where average monthly temperatures are rising. The more stable ground temperatures would be effecting this more. Ground temperatures lag behind air temperatures in the annual change. At the depth of a galop nest this could easily be what is at work here. with overall rising temps the ground temp will be below air temp. When temperatures are falling, ground temps are warmer than air temps.




I reread the series of reports and suspect the last data points on the graph posted are spurious. This would also make my comments invalid. Consider the following from the interim report:

“It is the policy of the Galapagos National Park Service to open known nests when park wardens expect hatching to be completed and assist hatchlings to excavate the nest. This means that we do not know the exact date of either hatching or when eruption would have taken place naturally, and therefore we cannot provide accurate estimates of incubation time.”

Thus, the last data point temperatures do not directly correlate with hatching or the time the nest was opened by the GNPS. Additionally, Galaps usually hatch early in the rainy system when lush vegetation grows. For us the incubation period is approximately 4-4 ½ months. The timing of this study was an El Nino period. Rain or nest flooding may also have influenced the final reported data.


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## CarolM

Hi
The sensor push has arrived. Do I place it above ground in a tupperware i.e. with the sensor push under a tupperware in order to protect it from the elements? That is on the ground with a tupperware above it or in the tupperware with the lid on, above ground?


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## CarolM

Forgot to attach pic.


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## CarolM

Solved problem.


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## Markw84

CarolM said:


> Hi
> The sensor push has arrived. Do I place it above ground in a tupperware i.e. with the sensor push under a tupperware in order to protect it from the elements? That is on the ground with a tupperware above it or in the tupperware with the lid on, above ground?


I have the one I use for comparable "meterological" weather, mounted under the eave of a gazebo where it is shaded from direct sun, gets good airflow and not effected by a heated building. I wanted high enough to not get ground effect heating at night. So that means at least 5 feet above the ground level minimum. If the sensor is where it gets direct sunshine, it will effect the temperature reading greatly. You want a spot in the shade. I like to get as close to "official" weather readings as possible so I can compare to the weather readings I can get from anywhere in the world as close as possible to prime range for a species I am wanting to compare. For example with G platynota I keep weather records for a city very close to the heart of the biggest refuge left for platynota. I know that right now a wild nest is experiencing highs of 79°-84° and lows of 57°-64°. The closer I can come to seeing what a similar depth nest that is experiencing as close as possible to those temperature ranges is actually reading in the ground the better! If we don't get a reading that is as close as possible to meterological readings, it will throw everything off. I will be adjusting my estimates trying to account for overall temperatures of previous months as ground temps are a huge factor and they lag behind meterological monthly changes. so for the platynota data, I know this is the coldest time of year and ground temps are higher than if we were looking at a spring or fall location with similar readings. Rainfall is also a big factor if it is different in our sample area vs wild nest locations. For your location, we are actually getting wild nest data for C angulata. But the value of the comparative meterological reading would be most useful if it is as close to meterological standards as possible.

I believe what I see of your location is that it is too close to the ground. Ground effect heating at night will definitely effect the overnight readings. Compare your reading you are getting now with the official weather data for a station as close to your location as possible. See how much it matches.


----------



## CarolM

Markw84 said:


> I have the one I use for comparable "meterological" weather, mounted under the eave of a gazebo where it is shaded from direct sun, gets good airflow and not effected by a heated building. I wanted high enough to not get ground effect heating at night. So that means at least 5 feet above the ground level minimum. If the sensor is where it gets direct sunshine, it will effect the temperature reading greatly. You want a spot in the shade. I like to get as close to "official" weather readings as possible so I can compare to the weather readings I can get from anywhere in the world as close as possible to prime range for a species I am wanting to compare. For example with G platynota I keep weather records for a city very close to the heart of the biggest refuge left for platynota. I know that right now a wild nest is experiencing highs of 79°-84° and lows of 57°-64°. The closer I can come to seeing what a similar depth nest that is experiencing as close as possible to those temperature ranges is actually reading in the ground the better! If we don't get a reading that is as close as possible to meterological readings, it will throw everything off. I will be adjusting my estimates trying to account for overall temperatures of previous months as ground temps are a huge factor and they lag behind meterological monthly changes. so for the platynota data, I know this is the coldest time of year and ground temps are higher than if we were looking at a spring or fall location with similar readings. Rainfall is also a big factor if it is different in our sample area vs wild nest locations. For your location, we are actually getting wild nest data for C angulata. But the value of the comparative meterological reading would be most useful if it is as close to meterological standards as possible.
> 
> I believe what I see of your location is that it is too close to the ground. Ground effect heating at night will definitely effect the overnight readings. Compare your reading you are getting now with the official weather data for a station as close to your location as possible. See how much it matches.


Ok. Will do.


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## CarolM

Markw84 said:


> I have the one I use for comparable "meterological" weather, mounted under the eave of a gazebo where it is shaded from direct sun, gets good airflow and not effected by a heated building. I wanted high enough to not get ground effect heating at night. So that means at least 5 feet above the ground level minimum. If the sensor is where it gets direct sunshine, it will effect the temperature reading greatly. You want a spot in the shade. I like to get as close to "official" weather readings as possible so I can compare to the weather readings I can get from anywhere in the world as close as possible to prime range for a species I am wanting to compare. For example with G platynota I keep weather records for a city very close to the heart of the biggest refuge left for platynota. I know that right now a wild nest is experiencing highs of 79°-84° and lows of 57°-64°. The closer I can come to seeing what a similar depth nest that is experiencing as close as possible to those temperature ranges is actually reading in the ground the better! If we don't get a reading that is as close as possible to meterological readings, it will throw everything off. I will be adjusting my estimates trying to account for overall temperatures of previous months as ground temps are a huge factor and they lag behind meterological monthly changes. so for the platynota data, I know this is the coldest time of year and ground temps are higher than if we were looking at a spring or fall location with similar readings. Rainfall is also a big factor if it is different in our sample area vs wild nest locations. For your location, we are actually getting wild nest data for C angulata. But the value of the comparative meterological reading would be most useful if it is as close to meterological standards as possible.
> 
> I believe what I see of your location is that it is too close to the ground. Ground effect heating at night will definitely effect the overnight readings. Compare your reading you are getting now with the official weather data for a station as close to your location as possible. See how much it matches.


Hi Mark.
Okay I changed the position to hang under a tree.
The below is the current reading on the sensor push and the temp on the weather app.
Please let me know if this is okay.


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## Markw84

Carol, Can we get a few pictures seeing the exposure of the nest location where you have the sensor buried? And where the actual nest is in realation? I am interested in the amount of direct sun it gets. From the first set of data you sent it looks like we get a nice bit of solar heating of the ground where the nest is, and on more cloudy days it does not spike as high. ON sunny days the nest gets warmer than air temps. So it must get direct sun. I would expect that a tortoise nest would need full sun exposure more with the cooler temps you get there along the coast. A picture showing the overall location at noon on a sunny day to see shadows and how much sun exposure the nest gets.

Here's the first set of data for Dec 17 - Dec 31. So we are looking at the period right at the summer solstice. I took air temp weather data from a weather station within 1/2 mile of your house and overlaid it (grey) over the nest temps.


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## CarolM

Markw84 said:


> Carol, Can we get a few pictures seeing the exposure of the nest location where you have the sensor buried? And where the actual nest is in realation? I am interested in the amount of direct sun it gets. From the first set of data you sent it looks like we get a nice bit of solar heating of the ground where the nest is, and on more cloudy days it does not spike as high. ON sunny days the nest gets warmer than air temps. So it must get direct sun. I would expect that a tortoise nest would need full sun exposure more with the cooler temps you get there along the coast. A picture showing the overall location at noon on a sunny day to see shadows and how much sun exposure the nest gets.
> 
> Here's the first set of data for Dec 17 - Dec 31. So we are looking at the period right at the summer solstice. I took air temp weather data from a weather station within 1/2 mile of your house and overlaid it (grey) over the nest temps.
> 
> View attachment 261200


Okay will do. I am at work tomorrow for probably the full day so will need to do it either on friday or Saturday. I will take a photo at 8am, 1pm and then again at 8pm so you can see the difference.


----------



## CarolM

Markw84 said:


> Carol, Can we get a few pictures seeing the exposure of the nest location where you have the sensor buried? And where the actual nest is in realation? I am interested in the amount of direct sun it gets. From the first set of data you sent it looks like we get a nice bit of solar heating of the ground where the nest is, and on more cloudy days it does not spike as high. ON sunny days the nest gets warmer than air temps. So it must get direct sun. I would expect that a tortoise nest would need full sun exposure more with the cooler temps you get there along the coast. A picture showing the overall location at noon on a sunny day to see shadows and how much sun exposure the nest gets.
> 
> Here's the first set of data for Dec 17 - Dec 31. So we are looking at the period right at the summer solstice. I took air temp weather data from a weather station within 1/2 mile of your house and overlaid it (grey) over the nest temps.
> 
> View attachment 261200


The nest is about 10 to 15 cm away from where I buried the sensor (give or take a few cm). It is also the site which they have picked on previous occassions.


----------



## Markw84

CarolM said:


> The nest is about 10 to 15 cm away from where I buried the sensor (give or take a few cm). It is also the site which they have picked on previous occassions.


Can we get a picture of the actual nest - how disturbed the ground is and how much grass cover is over the nest?


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## CarolM

Markw84 said:


> Can we get a picture of the actual nest - how disturbed the ground is and how much grass cover is over the nest?


Yes sure. Will include that as well. However I have not disturbed the nest at all. I am going on the word of my domestic worker who said that she saw the female laying / nesting in that area. I did not check it as I did not want to jeopardize the egg. BUT it is the same site where previous eggs were laid. The yellow circle is more or less where I buried the sensor and the little red hat is where the egg is supposed to be. We will only get confirmation on the egg in March / April when it should be hatching. I have included some other photos I had on my phone. But the grass is a lot more now, and will give you updated pics as soon as I can.


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## Sterant

Carol sent me her first two-week data set from the SensorPush buried under the "diving bell" method. We will have more data soon, which will include above ground temperatures and RH, but I wanted to get this out now. I did not put RH on this graph as it was at or near 100% the entire time. This is a two week data set. Interesting that the daily high was about 81F and the nightly low was around 69F. Will be good to see what the trend is as the summer grows warmer!


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## Sterant

Sorry - just noticed that Mark already posted it....


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## CarolM

CarolM said:


> Yes sure. Will include that as well. However I have not disturbed the nest at all. I am going on the word of my domestic worker who said that she saw the female laying / nesting in that area. I did not check it as I did not want to jeopardize the egg. BUT it is the same site where previous eggs were laid. The yellow circle is more or less where I buried the sensor and the little red hat is where the egg is supposed to be. We will only get confirmation on the egg in March / April when it should be hatching. I have included some other photos I had on my phone. But the grass is a lot more now, and will give you updated pics as soon as I can.
> View attachment 261201
> View attachment 261202
> View attachment 261204
> View attachment 261205
> View attachment 261206
> View attachment 261207


Okay here are the updated photos. I managed to come home at lunch time yesterday and take the necessary photo for midday.
First is at 07.50am this morning, then at 12.25pm yesterday and last at 19.25pm Yesterday evening.


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## CarolM

CarolM said:


> Okay here are the updated photos. I managed to come home at lunch time yesterday and take the necessary photo for midday.
> First is at 07.50am this morning, then at 12.25pm yesterday and last at 19.25pm Yesterday evening.
> View attachment 261356
> View attachment 261357
> View attachment 261358
> View attachment 261359
> View attachment 261361
> View attachment 261362


Today at 16.34


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## Markw84

@CarolM Do you have a rock on top of the sensor location? If so, that would alter the temperature readings as the rock would heat more than ground and hold heat longer. We would like the sensor location as "natural" as possible as a mother tortoise would leave it.


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## Markw84

CarolM said:


> Today at 16.34
> View attachment 261395


Carol, are we looking south in this photo? The wall of the building next to the nest facing east?


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## CarolM

Markw84 said:


> @CarolM Do you have a rock on top of the sensor location? If so, that would alter the temperature readings as the rock would heat more than ground and hold heat longer. We would like the sensor location as "natural" as possible as a mother tortoise would leave it.


The stones are now off. Sorry didn't think about that.


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## CarolM

Markw84 said:


> Carol, are we looking south in this photo? The wall of the building next to the nest facing east?


Had to get my son to help.


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## Olddog

Possibly you may find this article of intrest re nest temperatures measurements in Leatherback Turtles: 

The authors list the temperature data loggers utilized in thier study and details of their study setup. 
Measurement of Metabolic heat during the final third of the incubation period was associated with the number of eggs per nest.

Incubation temperatures, sex ratio and hatching success of leatherback turtles (Dermochelys coriacea)
in two protected hatcheries on the central Mexican coast of the Eastern Tropical Pacific Ocean
J. García–Grajales, J. F. Meraz Hernando, J. L. Arcos García, E. Ramírez Fuentes

Animal Biodiversity and Conservation 42.1 (2019)

Abstract

Incubation temperatures, sex ratio and hatching success of leatherback turtles (Dermochelys coriacea) in two protected hatcheries on the central Mexican coast of the Eastern Tropical Pacific Ocean. Incubation temperatures, sex ratio and hatching success of leatherback turtles have received little attention in conservation programs in Mexico. This study was carried out from October 2014 to May 2017 in two enclosed hatchery sites. To determine temperature parametersin the nest chamber environment and their variation during the incubation period, we placed data loggers in the centre of the egg mass in relocated nests. We then buried other data loggers in the sand near the relocated nests, inside and outside the hatchery. A total of 46 nests were examined over three nesting seasons. Mean nest temperature showed no statistical difference between nests in either the San Juan Chacahua hatchery or in the Palmarito hatchery nests. The mean sex ratio based on average temperature during the middle third of incubation duration was 96.3% skewed to female production. Hatching success in both San Juan Chacahua and Palmarito was high. Our findings support the common pattern of a female–dominated leatherback turtle sex ratio. Furthermore, hatching success rates in the shade–cloth hatchery were higher than those in the natural nests observed in other populations.


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## Markw84

@CarolM Have you received the data loggers yet? Last I saw they left Johannesburg on the 6th. Let me know when you get them. I sent you 3.

I also am working with the park warden for the largest Burmese Star facility in Myanmar. She has 3170 Burmese in her care right now. I am working on getting her some data loggers as well. She never thought that necessary as they just naturally hatch!, but I am trying to convince her!!


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## CarolM

Markw84 said:


> @CarolM Have you received the data loggers yet? Last I saw they left Johannesburg on the 6th. Let me know when you get them. I sent you 3.
> 
> I also am working with the park warden for the largest Burmese Star facility in Myanmar. She has 3170 Burmese in her care right now. I am working on getting her some data loggers as well. She never thought that necessary as they just naturally hatch!, but I am trying to convince her!!


Sorry Mark, just checked. Still nothing.


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## Markw84

We got the 2 week update from Carol on the C angulata nest we are monitoring. Here is the updated chart. I have added rainfall data from her town weather station as I like to track rainfall events when I am looking at nest data. I have charts like this for the past year+ on locations in the middle of their prime natural habitats for G platynota, S p pardalis, and A radiata. I don't have in situ nest data - so hopefully as we collect data from nests we can extrapolate what nests would be with those conditions. I also graph cloud cover in all my other data set graphs, but did not here with Carol's.

Interesting to me that we are now 3 weeks past summer solstice and the nest temperature for C angulata has only briefly peaked above 80° for a few hours on a handful of days. The average nest temperature is running about 75°!

Nest temp is red. Air temp is grey. Rainfall -blue- to show graphically on chart is X100 and is for a 3 hour period. So a reading of 10 on the chart for rainfall is 0.1 " of rain in that 3 hour period. This allow rain events to be readily seen. I do this on all my weather charts when used to predict nest temps and hatch dates, etc.


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## CarolM

Markw84 said:


> We got the 2 week update from Carol on the C angulata nest we are monitoring. Here is the updated chart. I have added rainfall data from her town weather station as I like to track rainfall events when I am looking at nest data. I have charts like this for the past year+ on locations in the middle of their prime natural habitats for G platynota, S p pardalis, and A radiata. I don't have in situ nest data - so hopefully as we collect data from nests we can extrapolate what nests would be with those conditions. I also graph cloud cover in all my other data set graphs, but did not here with Carol's.
> 
> Interesting to me that we are now 3 weeks past summer solstice and the nest temperature for C angulata has only briefly peaked above 80° for a few hours on a handful of days. The average nest temperature is running about 75°!
> 
> Nest temp is red. Air temp is grey. Rainfall -blue- to show graphically on chart is X100 and is for a 3 hour period. So a reading of 10 on the chart for rainfall is 0.1 " of rain in that 3 hour period. This allow rain events to be readily seen. I do this on all my weather charts when used to predict nest temps and hatch dates, etc.
> 
> View attachment 262351


Such a pity that I cannot get one in an actual nest, as it would be very interesting to see if the temps spike closer to hatching dates. Thank you Mark for putting it all together.


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## Markw84

CarolM said:


> Such a pity that I cannot get one in an actual nest, as it would be very interesting to see if the temps spike closer to hatching dates. Thank you Mark for putting it all together.



We do have a nest within centimeters of this location. This will tell us a lot!! I am already amazed at how low mid summer temperatures are in the "nest".


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## CarolM

Ok. I received the data loggers on Saturday, but due to my own projects I have not been able to bury them yet. I will bury them today after work. I will place one where my above ground sensor push is and one close to where I have the other sensor push as well. The third one I will also bury in the nesting area, but a bit further up on the opposite side of the cage currently protecting an existing nest. Unless you would like it placed somewhere else (the sensor push is buried between my house wall and the cage and the data logger will be further away from the wall on the opposite side of the wall). I'll post pics afterwards of the placement.


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## CarolM

@Markw84 / @Tom
Do I need to do anything before I put these loggers into their ziplock bags and place them? In other words am I supposed to press the play button for the 4 seconds to start the recording?


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## Markw84

They are already started and recording. Just put two in nest locations and one for ambient as I mentioned in the PM to you.


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## CarolM

Okay. I tried following how Tom did them. So I put each one into a zip lock bag. And then taped each one with duct tape and then marked them with their designated numbers on the outside.


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## CarolM

Number three went under the tree.


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## CarolM

Number one went about 5 to 10 cm away from the sensor push under the ground. I brought out my trusty paint brush and started to brush away the sand.
And just as I was afraid of I saw part of an egg. It was however to the side of the hole and about 10.5 cm down. Since I had already partly disturbed the nest [emoji85] I decided to carefully place the data logger there as planned.
I just hope that the egg still hatches. I am also not sure if this was the egg that my domestic told me about ( as I was under the impression that it was a little further to the left away from the wall) or another egg entirely. Come March / April we should find out. That is if it hatches now.


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## CarolM

And Data logger number 2 went on the other side of the cage which is supposed to be a few cm away from where I think or thought the egg was .


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## Tom

Carol, you are awesome. Thank you.


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## CarolM

Tom said:


> Carol, you are awesome. Thank you.


Awww. Now I am blushing. [emoji5] 

Hopefully that egg remains viable and or is a viable fertile egg and will then give data logger number 1 really good data for you.


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## Markw84

Great work, Carol. You are indeed awesome!

I love the placements. The important thing is to have the same amount (depth) of soil on top of the looger as there is on top of the egg. Since they are such shallow nests, an Inch makes a huge difference.

As an example, my test nests for G platynota are 6" deep - the average to mid nest for the nests my girls dig. At that depth on days with an ambient 20°f temp swing, your nest swings about 10°f. My nests swing 5°F. The amount of direct sun makes a big difference on top of that. Especially with how sandy the soil is where you are.


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## CarolM

Markw84 said:


> Great work, Carol. You are indeed awesome!
> 
> I love the placements. The important thing is to have the same amount (depth) of soil on top of the looger as there is on top of the egg. Since they are such shallow nests, an Inch makes a huge difference.
> 
> As an example, my test nests for G platynota are 6" deep - the average to mid nest for the nests my girls dig. At that depth on days with an ambient 20°f temp swing, your nest swings about 10°f. My nests swing 5°F. The amount of direct sun makes a big difference on top of that. Especially with how sandy the soil is where you are.


Oh dear. Now I am doubting if I did it right. I will have to check tomorrow to make sure.


----------



## CarolM

CarolM said:


> Oh dear. Now I am doubting if I did it right. I will have to check tomorrow to make sure.


Ok Mark, 

I checked again. And for logger number 1 I made sure the logger is in line with the egg and the sand over it is level again.


----------



## EllieMay

CarolM said:


> Awww. Now I am blushing. [emoji5]
> 
> Hopefully that egg remains viable and or is a viable fertile egg and will then give data logger number 1 really good data for you.



I am SO excited that you are participating here.. eagerly following now!


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## CarolM

EllieMay said:


> I am SO excited that you are participating here.. eagerly following now!


LOL, My part is easy. I just buried the data loggers and send a report every two weeks. Mark, Dan and Tom are the ones who have to use their brains and convert it to graphs and then figure out how to use the data.


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## turtlesteve

Following this with high interest. Would love to see this expanded to several of the other species that diapause and for which TSD is not understood. 

Steve


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## Tom

I finally closed off the area with all the SA leopard nests. The females will have to lay their eggs outside of this area this summer and when the babies start hatching and digging up, they will be contained in this area.







I went back and counted and there are at least 15 nests in this area. A few nests are outside the wall area. I'm going to dig those up and incubate a clutch in the regular incubator and another clutch in an incubator with a night temp drop. This will tell me a lot about incubation for this variety of this species.


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## kazjimmy

Plz let me know once I can buy some SA baby from you thank you.


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## Tom

kazjimmy said:


> Plz let me know once I can buy some SA baby from you thank you.


Will do. They should hatch out of the ground in late September, but I'm going to incubate some that have been left in the ground over winter. Those should hatch after about 100 days, so if they hatch, I'd be ready to sell them before the other ones come out of the ground.


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## dmmj

wellington said:


> I say this in the nicest way and highest respect. You are hard to understand and to follow along sometimes. You can get very scientific (not sure that's the word I want) where the average person can not understand or follow along, so I believe interest is lost.


 I do feel a little dumber every time I read one of his posts


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## wellington

dmmj said:


> I do feel a little dumber every time I read one of his posts


Your not alone.


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## kazjimmy

Tom said:


> Will do. They should hatch out of the ground in late September, but I'm going to incubate some that have been left in the ground over winter. Those should hatch after about 100 days, so if they hatch, I'd be ready to sell them before the other ones come out of the ground.



Good luck and good work!


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## Gijoux

Markw84 said:


> Several abandoned nests that seemed complete that I examined often has a rock or other obstruction somewhere on the side of the nest chamber. I had always speculated they ran into the obstruction and simply did not feel the chamber was of the correct final size or perhaps did not like the feel of something sticking into the nest chamber.


I only have one laying female Leopard Tortoise (told she was a Babcocki, but I suspect mixed) who starts so many holes and I too found big roots, rocks and pieces of cement in every abandoned hole. I became worried she would become egg bound, so after 6 days of digging everyday, I decided that I had nothing to lose by helping her. In fact that day I sat in a chair in the yard and within 20 minutes she came over to within 3 feet of me and started to dig. When I noticed she had run into a thick root, I cut it out of her hole. She kept digging. Then there was a big piece of cement I dug out and finally a big rock. She just kept digging and eventually laid 11 eggs. I so wish I had managed to read more on this forum and would have just left those eggs in the ground, because I now believe her eggs need to have a diapause period. I so appreciate all the experiences that each and every one of you contribute freely on this forum. I treasure you all.


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## Gijoux

Tom said:


> I starting using the baskets primarily so they wouldn't dig up each other's, or their own, nests.


Tom, what king of baskets are those? They seem to work beautifully and I would like to get some.


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## Tom

Gijoux said:


> Tom, what king of baskets are those? They seem to work beautifully and I would like to get some.


I have three different types. I found them online with a search and just tried different ones to see which I liked better. I can't remember where these ones came from.


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## Gijoux

Tom said:


> I have three different types. I found them online with a search and just tried different ones to see which I liked better. I can't remember where these ones came from.


Thank you. I'll do an internet search.


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## Markw84

We now have a complete year’s data for our nest temperature data. When I was at @Tom 's the beginning of this past week, he gave the the loggers that he had just dug up from our experiment. This week I have been playing with the results. We also have a year’s info from CarolM in South Africa for her loggers in the C angulata nest. So a great beginning now to the type of information I was wanting to see how nest temperatures actually react to actual weather conditions in an area.

One of the data loggers Tom placed somehow got turned off at the very beginning of the process. I thought I had set all three so the buttons on the front were inactive to prevent manually stopping data recording. However, the one was not set that way and recording was stopped at the very beginning. So we do not have data for the 3rd logger that Tom placed in the G platynota nest. We do have complete data for the S pardalis nest and the control, which were the primary goals for this test.

Since the set of data for a whole year is over 19000 data points, the graph to show results is quite large when I make it to show the relationships I am looking for. Here is the whole year at Tom’s nest with the nest data in red and the control in green. We must note the control data is really not “weather station” data, as it was placed in a protected spot just under the edge of a building. So the highs for the day will not be as high as weather station data would report and the lows would be moderated quite a bit as well. But it does seem to be close and certainly give us the weather trends.

For easier reference I made bands of major temperature ranges, with a blue band from 40°-50° (the 40°s), a green band for the 60°s and a red band for the 80°s.

We see for last year, in Tom’s area, an 8” deep nest in full sun went from the mid 40°s in Feb to the low 80°s in August.




In the cooler months, with a “normal” air temperature swing of perhaps 20° - the nest temperature swings 4°-5°F daily. We see the nest temperature fairly resistant to temperature changes when a cold or warm spell hits. It takes several days to adjust to a warm or cool spell.



In the summer, when temperatures swing an average of 30° daily, the nest will fluctuate about 7° daily. Keeping in mind this is a more protected control temperature location, we are seeing mid August only barely topped 100° on two days and lows are upper 60°s. Official temperatures for the area had many days well over 100° and lows several degrees cooler. The actual weather data temperature probably was swinging at least 40° daily. But that still only generates a nest swing of 7°F. IN full sun exposure the temperature warms steadily about two hours after the air temperature rises above the nest temperature. It continues to rise until the air temperature drops back below the nest temperature.



Here is the data from @CarolM 's C angulata nest in South Africa. I used the same format for the graph for easy comparison. The data has some skips in data recording, but we still see a great overall picture of the year. We see the temps in S Africa where Carol is located – very close to the coast, does not get a cold as at Tom’s. This nest is also much shallower at just a few inches below the surface. This nest also only received direct sun approx. 4 hours per day. We see mid summer (Feb) nest temps average about 80° and winter temps averaging in the high 50°s. (Aug). This is part of the natural range of the South African Leopard tortoise, so an interesting comparison. Although a shallower nest, it would be the daily swings that would be less in a deeper nest, not the overall nest average daily temperature.




Mid summer – the peak incubation period – shows daily air temp swings normally in the 20° range, while the shallow nest swings about 10° daily on sunny days. Nest temps are highest the beginning part of Feb going from 76° to 88° daily at peak. The shallower nest heats quickly when the sun hits it and cools slower. We also see the average nest temperature staying on the higher side of daily average temps here as opposed to the deeper nest at Tom’s








Mid winter – diapause period – we see the nest temps averaging more to the lower side of average daily air temps. Nest temp is only swinging about 4° on sunny days with the sun much lower this time of year. The low nest temperatures last for several months and is going from 57° to 61° most of this time.




I also did a few test nests in my yard. In a full sun exposed area where my female sulcata often lays eggs, I placed data loggers in a test hole at 12” which is the normal top of nest depth for my sulcatas. I then placed another logger in a hole adjacent at 6” depth. This is the normal top of nest depth for my Burmese Stars G platynota nests. These tests show a 12” deep sulcata nest will only swing a max of 2°F in full sun exposure while a 7” deep G platynota nest right next to that will swing 7°F.




From this data, I am excited that it does indeed seem reasonable to be able to predict nest temperatures for different species when all we can find is the weather data for the home range. Nest depth will control the amount of daily swings in nest temperature as we see a C angulata nest only 3” deep will swing 10° daily in summer, but much less in their winter season. A 9” deep S pardalis nest swings 7° in full sun. I have found that in more tropical, hotter climates, tortoises tend to nest much more in shaded or partially shaded areas under bushes or some cover when available. This dramatically moderates temperature swings and keeps the overall nest temperature closer to the lower end of what you see in full sun nests.

Is there practical application for the information for us and our husbandry? I certainly believe so.

For example I used this information to totally adjust the diapause method I use for my Burmese stars. Suspecting these results, I actually made the change last year ½ way through the laying season. I took the weather data similar to what I posted much earlier in this thread last year, for temperatures in the heart of the remaining G platynota range. I started with my first clutches last year with the diapause method I found most all breeders use for platynota. Room temp for 7 days. Cool at 65° for 30 days. Room temp for 7 days, then incubate. But looking at weather data for their home range and what I was proposing (and prompted this study on my part) I saw no way a natural nest was cooling at 65° in Myanmar where winter daily temps average a low of 65° and a high of 83°. I felt nest temperature should be in the 70°-75° range with those air temperatures at the lowest. If we now look at Tom’s nest when his daytime temps were in that exact range ((June) the nest temp was swinging from 72° - 79° each day. Certainly not at 65°. Expecting this result, ½ way through my egg laying season last year I changed my diapause method to 6 weeks in an incubator with temp set at 79° and on a timer to turn off each evening to let the temp drop to about 70°. Then I would incubate. Prior to making that change I diapaused 48 eggs with variations of the first method and got 15 to hatch – 31%. When I switch to the new method I diapaused 32 eggs that way and got 29 that hatched -91%. Were the later clutches simply more fertile? Don’t know, but I certainly know the diapause method I surmised was more “natural mimicking” certainly works.

Much more discussion and theorizing to come…


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## Blackdog1714

Science is awesome excellent reading!


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## Gijoux

Markw84 said:


> We now have a complete year’s data for our nest temperature data. When I was at @Tom 's the beginning of this past week, he gave the the loggers that he had just dug up from our experiment. This week I have been playing with the results. We also have a year’s info from CarolM in South Africa for her loggers in the C angulata nest. So a great beginning now to the type of information I was wanting to see how nest temperatures actually react to actual weather conditions in an area.
> 
> One of the data loggers Tom placed somehow got turned off at the very beginning of the process. I thought I had set all three so the buttons on the front were inactive to prevent manually stopping data recording. However, the one was not set that way and recording was stopped at the very beginning. So we do not have data for the 3rd logger that Tom placed in the G platynota nest. We do have complete data for the S pardalis nest and the control, which were the primary goals for this test.
> 
> Since the set of data for a whole year is over 19000 data points, the graph to show results is quite large when I make it to show the relationships I am looking for. Here is the whole year at Tom’s nest with the nest data in red and the control in green. We must note the control data is really not “weather station” data, as it was placed in a protected spot just under the edge of a building. So the highs for the day will not be as high as weather station data would report and the lows would be moderated quite a bit as well. But it does seem to be close and certainly give us the weather trends.
> 
> For easier reference I made bands of major temperature ranges, with a blue band from 40°-50° (the 40°s), a green band for the 60°s and a red band for the 80°s.
> 
> We see for last year, in Tom’s area, an 8” deep nest in full sun went from the mid 40°s in Feb to the low 80°s in August.
> 
> 
> View attachment 284845
> 
> In the cooler months, with a “normal” air temperature swing of perhaps 20° - the nest temperature swings 4°-5°F daily. We see the nest temperature fairly resistant to temperature changes when a cold or warm spell hits. It takes several days to adjust to a warm or cool spell.
> 
> View attachment 284846
> 
> In the summer, when temperatures swing an average of 30° daily, the nest will fluctuate about 7° daily. Keeping in mind this is a more protected control temperature location, we are seeing mid August only barely topped 100° on two days and lows are upper 60°s. Official temperatures for the area had many days well over 100° and lows several degrees cooler. The actual weather data temperature probably was swinging at least 40° daily. But that still only generates a nest swing of 7°F. IN full sun exposure the temperature warms steadily about two hours after the air temperature rises above the nest temperature. It continues to rise until the air temperature drops back below the nest temperature.
> 
> View attachment 284847
> 
> Here is the data from @CarolM 's C angulata nest in South Africa. I used the same format for the graph for easy comparison. The data has some skips in data recording, but we still see a great overall picture of the year. We see the temps in S Africa where Carol is located – very close to the coast, does not get a cold as at Tom’s. This nest is also much shallower at just a few inches below the surface. This nest also only received direct sun approx. 4 hours per day. We see mid summer (Feb) nest temps average about 80° and winter temps averaging in the high 50°s. (Aug). This is part of the natural range of the South African Leopard tortoise, so an interesting comparison. Although a shallower nest, it would be the daily swings that would be less in a deeper nest, not the overall nest average daily temperature.
> 
> View attachment 284848
> 
> 
> Mid summer – the peak incubation period – shows daily air temp swings normally in the 20° range, while the shallow nest swings about 10° daily on sunny days. Nest temps are highest the beginning part of Feb going from 76° to 88° daily at peak. The shallower nest heats quickly when the sun hits it and cools slower. We also see the average nest temperature staying on the higher side of daily average temps here as opposed to the deeper nest at Tom’s
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 284849
> 
> 
> 
> Mid winter – diapause period – we see the nest temps averaging more to the lower side of average daily air temps. Nest temp is only swinging about 4° on sunny days with the sun much lower this time of year. The low nest temperatures last for several months and is going from 57° to 61° most of this time.
> 
> 
> View attachment 284850
> 
> I also did a few test nests in my yard. In a full sun exposed area where my female sulcata often lays eggs, I placed data loggers in a test hole at 12” which is the normal top of nest depth for my sulcatas. I then placed another logger in a hole adjacent at 6” depth. This is the normal top of nest depth for my Burmese Stars G platynota nests. These tests show a 12” deep sulcata nest will only swing a max of 2°F in full sun exposure while a 7” deep G platynota nest right next to that will swing 7°F.
> 
> View attachment 284851
> 
> 
> From this data, I am excited that it does indeed seem reasonable to be able to predict nest temperatures for different species when all we can find is the weather data for the home range. Nest depth will control the amount of daily swings in nest temperature as we see a C angulata nest only 3” deep will swing 10° daily in summer, but much less in their winter season. A 9” deep S pardalis nest swings 7° in full sun. I have found that in more tropical, hotter climates, tortoises tend to nest much more in shaded or partially shaded areas under bushes or some cover when available. This dramatically moderates temperature swings and keeps the overall nest temperature closer to the lower end of what you see in full sun nests.
> 
> Is there practical application for the information for us and our husbandry? I certainly believe so.
> 
> For example I used this information to totally adjust the diapause method I use for my Burmese stars. Suspecting these results, I actually made the change last year ½ way through the laying season. I took the weather data similar to what I posted much earlier in this thread last year, for temperatures in the heart of the remaining G platynota range. I started with my first clutches last year with the diapause method I found most all breeders use for platynota. Room temp for 7 days. Cool at 65° for 30 days. Room temp for 7 days, then incubate. But looking at weather data for their home range and what I was proposing (and prompted this study on my part) I saw no way a natural nest was cooling at 65° in Myanmar where winter daily temps average a low of 65° and a high of 83°. I felt nest temperature should be in the 70°-75° range with those air temperatures at the lowest. If we now look at Tom’s nest when his daytime temps were in that exact range ((June) the nest temp was swinging from 72° - 79° each day. Certainly not at 65°. Expecting this result, ½ way through my egg laying season last year I changed my diapause method to 6 weeks in an incubator with temp set at 79° and on a timer to turn off each evening to let the temp drop to about 70°. Then I would incubate. Prior to making that change I diapaused 48 eggs with variations of the first method and got 15 to hatch – 31%. When I switch to the new method I diapaused 32 eggs that way and got 29 that hatched -91%. Were the later clutches simply more fertile? Don’t know, but I certainly know the diapause method I surmised was more “natural mimicking” certainly works.
> 
> Much more discussion and theorizing to come…



Thank you so much for this information and all the work you guys have done in this regard. So Mark do you feel your new diapause protocol would also work for the S Pardalis? I'm thinking yes. Have you and Tom figured out what might have happened to Tom's nests? I was thinking all the very heavy rain we got might have drowned the eggs. I had to actually place a pump in my yard last year to drain the water off. I was really happy I didn't have any nests in the ground at the time. I remember thinking about all of Tom's nests and wondering how they could survive that kind of rain. Again thanks for all your work.
Jeanette


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## CarolM

Thank you Mark for putting this all together. And so glad that I was given the opportunity to be a part of this. Definitely good reading and very interesting. Great way to get the tortoise populations bigger. 

I am not sure what tortoises are native to Australia, but considering that there have been a lot of animals who have perished in the fires, this information would be great in helping to re-populate any tortoise species that will need to be replenished there if necessary. It will be great to get better success rates for hatching them for the re-population. I would imagine that you could ideally use this information for any species based on the depth of the nests and the air temperatures. Am I correct in thinking that or am I way off base?

My maths' is not the best, so what is the average percentage in variation of the drops/swings of the nest temps compared to the depth of the eggs laid and air temp variations, which we could then use for all species, as a general formula or would it be different for each species?


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## Markw84

Gijoux said:


> Thank you so much for this information and all the work you guys have done in this regard. So Mark do you feel your new diapause protocol would also work for the S Pardalis? I'm thinking yes. Have you and Tom figured out what might have happened to Tom's nests? I was thinking all the very heavy rain we got might have drowned the eggs. I had to actually place a pump in my yard last year to drain the water off. I was really happy I didn't have any nests in the ground at the time. I remember thinking about all of Tom's nests and wondering how they could survive that kind of rain. Again thanks for all your work.
> Jeanette


I think we are seeing that for S pardalis pardalis a cooler diapause period is needed than for G platynota. I also think the fluctuating nest temperature is an ingredient that helps in oxygen transfer to the egg. If we look across all chelonians that use diapause, we see 3 factors seem to come into play to break diapause - temperature, moisture, and oxygen exchange. With Temperature a cooling period followed by a rise to incubation temps. Moisture seems to come into play with some species where a wetter nest dries out and starts oxygen transfer to the egg. Some theorize the mucus surrounding the egg does not allow oxygen transfer and only when laid and allowed to dry a bit does that break down the oxygen barrier to allow development to start. So really moisture and oxygen seem very much linked. I also believe a fluctuating temperature affects all of this as the smallest of temp drops raises relative humidity and dew point levels and would facility oxygen exchange to the egg. These charts from our results show us an increase in amount of temp swing as the sun increases in altitude and daily temps rise. Also the more extreme in latitude the species of tortoise is found, the more open sunny locations seem to be chosen for nest sites, so that difference in nest temperature swing may be beneficial to break diapause calling all three factors into play. The tortoises I have personal experience with also all release quite a bit of moisture into the nest as well as defecate into it. This would create a very humid nest to start that would gradually dry out a bit over the diapause period and when temps begin to rise.

If I were to work with S pardalis pardalis eggs and try to artificially diapause and incubate - Based upon what we see here, I would diapause with temps fluctuating daily from 60° - 64° for about 5 weeks. Then a week at 70° - 78° daily. Then incubate at 83° - 89° daily. I would clean the eggs when collected using a cloth wet with a solution of distilled water with a bit of baking soda and Calcium added. Just 300 mg/L calcium chloride and 600 mg/L baking soda. (Never let water containing chlorine/chloramine or floride touch the eggs or incubation medium.) I would also use that solution to moisten the incubation medium 50/50 by weight. For incubation medium, I would use 50/50 by volume vermiculite and peat moss. Record the total starting weight of the container, medium and eggs. I would incubate in a container with small holes for some air exchange and not add more water until the incubation phase has started, then keep the same total weight by adding water, as when I first set the eggs up.


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## Gijoux

Markw84 said:


> I think we are seeing that for S pardalis pardalis a cooler diapause period is needed than for G platynota. I also think the fluctuating nest temperature is an ingredient that helps in oxygen transfer to the egg. If we look across all chelonians that use diapause, we see 3 factors seem to come into play to break diapause - temperature, moisture, and oxygen exchange. With Temperature a cooling period followed by a rise to incubation temps. Moisture seems to come into play with some species where a wetter nest dries out and starts oxygen transfer to the egg. Some theorize the mucus surrounding the egg does not allow oxygen transfer and only when laid and allowed to dry a bit does that break down the oxygen barrier to allow development to start. So really moisture and oxygen seem very much linked. I also believe a fluctuating temperature affects all of this as the smallest of temp drops raises relative humidity and dew point levels and would facility oxygen exchange to the egg. These charts from our results show us an increase in amount of temp swing as the sun increases in altitude and daily temps rise. Also the more extreme in latitude the species of tortoise is found, the more open sunny locations seem to be chosen for nest sites, so that difference in nest temperature swing may be beneficial to break diapause calling all three factors into play. The tortoises I have personal experience with also all release quite a bit of moisture into the nest as well as defecate into it. This would create a very humid nest to start that would gradually dry out a bit over the diapause period and when temps begin to rise.
> 
> If I were to work with S pardalis pardalis eggs and try to artificially diapause and incubate - Based upon what we see here, I would diapause with temps fluctuating daily from 60° - 64° for about 5 weeks. Then a week at 70° - 78° daily. Then incubate at 83° - 89° daily. I would clean the eggs when collected using a cloth wet with a solution of distilled water with a bit of baking soda and Calcium added. Just 300 mg/L calcium chloride and 600 mg/L baking soda. (Never let water containing chlorine/chloramine or floride touch the eggs or incubation medium.) I would also use that solution to moisten the incubation medium 50/50 by weight. For incubation medium, I would use 50/50 by volume vermiculite and peat moss. Record the total starting weight of the container, medium and eggs. I would incubate in a container with small holes for some air exchange and not add more water until the incubation phase has started, then keep the same total weight by adding water, as when I first set the eggs up.


Oh my goodness Mark! This is so informative and good stuff! Thank you so very much. All your work is truly appreciated.
Jeanette


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## Markw84

CarolM said:


> Thank you Mark for putting this all together. And so glad that I was given the opportunity to be a part of this. Definitely good reading and very interesting. Great way to get the tortoise populations bigger.
> 
> I am not sure what tortoises are native to Australia, but considering that there have been a lot of animals who have perished in the fires, this information would be great in helping to re-populate any tortoise species that will need to be replenished there if necessary. It will be great to get better success rates for hatching them for the re-population. I would imagine that you could ideally use this information for any species based on the depth of the nests and the air temperatures. Am I correct in thinking that or am I way off base?
> 
> My maths' is not the best, so what is the average percentage in variation of the drops/swings of the nest temps compared to the depth of the eggs laid and air temp variations, which we could then use for all species, as a general formula or would it be different for each species?


Yes, Carol. I have always wanted this type of data to more fully understand, and then predict the best incubation temperatures and even more important for finding best diapause recipes. Only by knowing the relationship between weather data (air temps) and nest temperatures can we extrapolate. We do need to know type of nest site - open or shaded or partial shade. Then depth of nest since some species use depth of nest (sulcata C nigra sea turtles) to allow more open nest sites in hotter climates.

Not sure what you mean by percentage of variation, but a simple chart is valuable. We need to factor sun exposure. But an open nest at 3" can fluctuate 10°F in summer. At 6" this drops to a 7° swing. At 9" it is turning out to be more like 5°. Once at 12" the swing never exceeds 2°F. Certainly the moisture content of the soil and type of soil will affect this as well, but this temp data alone gives us the biggest piece of information for conclusion. The other factors will make a much more minor differences to adjust.

This data also gives us some insight into temperatures tortoise actually do endure. When so many people quote meteorological low temperatures as justification for a tortoise's ability to withstand colder temperatures, we see the mistake. Just a few inches deep in a pallet or pushed under a thick bush or in a overhanging area, the temperatures never drop close to the overnight low. Where temps are the most extreme - russian tortoises, sulcatas they use burrows that would be more stable than a 12" nest. The flat plastron of the tortoise is designed to take best advantage of ground temps. We have all seen in our enclosures their incessant scaping to new substrate as they push into a corner. This is always exposing newer, deeper ground at warmer temps. A sulcata with a cold winter night drop to the 50°s is in a warm burrow at 80°.


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## turtlesteve

It would be hard to overstate the value of this kind of data - and I appreciate that you've shared the results here where we can all benefit from it. This kind of information is extremely useful beyond just the stated species, because we can use the relationships between soil depth, daily temperature fluctuation, and ambient air temperature to get a rough estimate of diapause conditions for other tortoise species. 

Steve


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