# An Unforeseen Threat to our California Desert Tortoises



## ZippyButter (May 11, 2008)

This article appears today on front page of LA Times (Sunday 05/11/08). I could not believe that the Army from and around Ft. Irwin, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the Bureau of Land Management allegedly violating the Federal Endangered Species Act by moving, relocating these DTs to Mojave Desert, away from their natural and normal habitat near the Army's National Training Center ar Fort Irwin. You can check this at On latimes.com/tortoise. We should do something to prevent futher damages. If anyone know more infos about this, please share with the rest of us. Thanks.


----------



## Josh (May 11, 2008)

holy smokes did i miss this article?! *frantically searches for todays paper*

okay, i found it here: Slow, steady -- and under siege


----------



## jlyoncc1 (May 12, 2008)

I am in NJ and actually heard something about this a few weeks ago.


----------



## Crazy1 (May 12, 2008)

This is my personal feelings on this subject and I am rather emotional about it. I have tried to tone it down. 
But in my opinion it is wrong, just plain wrong. 

Yes it is true. They moved about 760 DT from around Ft. Irwin. This has been in the works for some time. And the CTTC and other environmental organizations have been fighting against the move. Law suits are being filed. Yes, these are an endangered species in the wild. Yes they were moved into areas that the wild DT populations have been found to be infected with RI, the area they were moved to have been know for off road vehicle traffic, closer to human populated area, drought and now the coyotes.
This is what was agreed upon Ã¢â‚¬Å“As mitigationÃ¢â‚¬Â, the Army agreed to move the tortoises from the expansion area onto unoccupied public lands.Ã¢â‚¬Â The move was conduted in March because that is when the DT are most active. They have just come out of hibernation and are looking for food, water and a mate. Soon after the deserts heat up and these lovely creatures go underground and are hard to locate so the move had to be done in March. 

I like so many others here in CA feel this is a travisty. But we are talking about our Military and our national security. Both will out trump the poor DT. And even after they have moved 760 torts and had so many devistated so soon after the move they are still talking about moving another 1200. Ã¢â‚¬Å“In years to come, the Army plans to relocate an additional 1,200 tortoises from the western edge of the base to prevent them from being squashed by military equipment.Ã¢â‚¬Â Have we learned nothing by this first move. I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t say we leave them to get squashed, and I know they say the military must expand this training area. However there must be a better plan a better outcome for these translocated DT. But evidently when it comes to our military Endanged species do not really count.


----------



## Yvonne G (May 13, 2008)

Crazy1 said:


> I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t say we leave them to get squashed, and I know they say the military must expand this training area. However there must be a better plan a better outcome for these translocated DT. But evidently when it comes to our military Endanged species do not really count.



I don't understand why Mike Connor hasn't offered for the tortoises to be moved onto the Desert Tortoise Preserve. Isn't that why CTTC is buying land to form the preserve?

Yvonne


----------



## ZippyButter (May 13, 2008)

Crazy1 said:


> This is my personal feelings on this subject and I am rather emotional about it. I have tried to tone it down.
> But in my opinion it is wrong, just plain wrong.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## purpod (May 13, 2008)

Perhaps letters to congressmen or representatives? 
You can write an email to the Gov. by clicking on this link: http://gov.ca.gov/interact
Dunno if it will make a difference, but if enuf peeps bombard his office, you just never know...

purpod


----------



## Crazy1 (May 14, 2008)

Minh, I have written letters to the Gov., my Senator and my state representatives. Like usual you get nothing back or you get a pat response that they received your letter. I was at our meeting early this month and a rep from the DT reserve gave a talk regarding the preserve. Yep, the very preserve Mike Conner is involved in. It seems they are using the land to preserve the torts that are there. They have people that are replanting native plants and setting up water catch areas as the drought has done so much damage with new plantings etc. The talk was informative about the preserve but she new little or nothing, or would not talk about the move. She did state she was fairly new here from Minnesota. The land they just acquired didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢tÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ seem very large. Like I said they, the CTTC is involved. They are filing suit they are trying to stop the further removal of any DT. How successful they will be is questionable. Yes, I think we as a Turtle, Tortoise community need to be heard. I canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t even imagine the amount of acreage that would be needed for 1200 DT. But as the paper stated the cost of moving the 760 they moved was, I believe 8.7 billion dollars.

Each person needs to find the assembly person in their district and write to them, their Senator and the Gov. Plus contact your local CTTC and Rescue Groups and ask what they are doing and how you can get involved. 
Since I have had my foster DT I have found them such sweet loving social creatures it makes me cry just thinking of the devastation this move has made on them and their population.


----------



## Yvonne G (May 14, 2008)

Here's a link to a petition on this subject. When you get to the end, after following all the directions, and hit "send" it looks like nothing happens, but it does go, and a few minutes after I hit "send" and nothing happened, I received an acknowledgement email thanking me for signing the petition.

Yvonne

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/stoptortoisetranslocation


----------



## purpod (May 14, 2008)

As for this purpod peep, we are 'signed, sealed, delivered'! Many, many thanx for that link, Yvonne!!  You can be sure I will pass it on to others as well ~

purpod



> http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/stoptortoisetranslocation


----------



## ZippyButter (May 14, 2008)

Robyn,

You are right on it. I've received two e-mails from two congresswomen from our state (on different issues, not about the tortoises), and I don't feel that they would do anything more to improve thing for the benefit of the general population. For this subject, I agree with you also, we, as turtles and tortoises lovers, should write to those in offices and let our voices being heard. Just mention to them that we have the ballots in our hands for the next election.

Also, thank you Yvonne for the site. I've signed and sent the sample letter to many of my friends. 

Minh


----------



## old4x4 (May 21, 2008)

So we should let them get burned, blown up, be poisoned, get run over by tanks and other vehicles?...
Apparently I don't get it. I think the relocation beats the alternatives with a stick. At least the poor things will have a fighting chance at survival!


----------



## Yvonne G (May 21, 2008)

old4x4 said:


> So we should let them get burned, blown up, be poisoned, get run over by tanks and other vehicles?...
> Apparently I don't get it. I think the relocation beats the alternatives with a stick. At least the poor things will have a fighting chance at survival!



No, they are trying to get the powers-that-be to find another solution.

Yvonne


----------



## ZippyButter (May 21, 2008)

Hi old4x4,

I'm sorry I have to disagree with you. The California Desert Tortoises are here first, like American Indians. We human have destroyed so many things on this earth for our own conveniences. Our own federal government has made the law to protect this special species, and now other agencies turn around and do the unthinkable act toward them. Relocation is never good, just look at our own species, lives are effected both physically and emotionally. Especially when WARS are the main reason. The Armny needs to exercise, I don't blame them however they could find another place to expand or move themselves somewhere else. These tortoises and their habitat have been existing here for many, many years, and I believe if we are not carefull, our children, grand children and future generation might not see them anymore in the wild. What a major lost this would be!


Minh


----------



## Jacqui (May 21, 2008)

ZippyButter said:


> The Armny needs to exercise, I don't blame them however they could find another place to expand or move themselves somewhere else.
> 
> 
> Minh



Okay don't shoot me here, this is simply playing the role of devil's advocate and asking this question. Does not mean this is what I feel or think, ok?

Where is there that the military could go to, that would not impact native species and people?


----------



## ZippyButter (May 21, 2008)

Jacqui,

I think they should move to Crawford, Texas. Or Fort Chaffee, Arkansas, I don't know the armmy still using this place for training exercise now or not but in 1975, this entire army base was one of places in the country providing housing for refugees from Vietnam war. Here in California, they could utilize a closed Aire Force base(I could not recall the name) in Orange County to store their equipments. Here is another idea, they should move to the empty farmlands (here in America) which are owned by many extremely wealthy individuals and companies who are taking advantage of the farmland bill by growing NOTHING on their land but still receive PAYMENT from our government every year. These come from your mine, and every hard-working americans taxe dollars.

I don't want to divert the attention to other subject, the priority is still the welfare of these Califonia DTs. So please everyone sign the petition and spread the words to your families and friends, we still need more signatures.

Minh


----------



## Crazy1 (May 21, 2008)

I do understand both sides of the issue. The Military needs land for its purposes-training, expanding etc. The DTs need this land to survive as they have for centuries. This is the dilemma. 

old4x4 you raised the question should we just let them get Ã¢â‚¬Å“burned, blown up, be poisoned, get run over by tanks and other vehicles?Ã¢â‚¬Â No of course not. 
Their must be other alternatives. They had several set up alternatives, here is a listing of some Documents that list some of those that you all may be interested in reading. http://www.fortirwinlandexpansion.com/Documents.htm
http://www.fortirwinlandexpansion.com/Management of Army Acquired Mitigations Lands by BLM.pdf

I even went to this website http://www.deserttortoise.gov/dtsm/ and requested permission to access the data. I am awaiting a reply.

Then I found this, it is the *Sixty day notice of intent to sue for violations of section 7 and 9 the Endangered Species Act dated March 17, 2008* http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/...e/pdfs/60-day-notice-translocation-issues.pdf

and this: Environmentalists intend to sue over Fort Irwin's tortoise-relocation plan
http://www.pe.com/localnews/sbcounty/stories/PE_News_Local_D_tortoises18.3b82a37.html

In closing I feel we must remember these are a protected threatened and/or endangered species. There are laws that govern what happens if any one takes them, which is defined as; harass, harm, pursue, hunt, shoot, wound, kill, trap, capture, or collect or to attempt to engage in any such conduct. 
This should include; All persons whether individual, groups, clubs or The Department of Defense, (DOD), fish and wildlife or Bureau of Land Management or our elected officials.
*These peoples should be working to immediately halt further destruction of this species *through "translocation" as well as the critical (and legally protected) habitats in which they survive.

*Ã¢â‚¬ÂThe Department of Defense, nor any agency should be immune to the laws created to protect sensitive-and sometimes endangered species of plants and animals.Ã¢â‚¬Â*


----------



## ZippyButter (May 21, 2008)

Robyn,

I was on some of the sites that you've listed above this past weekend, but forgot to write the addresses down, so I don't have them available to answer other posters. Thank you for sharing those with us here, I will bookmark them for future references.

Minh


----------



## purpod (May 23, 2008)

Heya Robyn!

It's well researched information & critical thinking such as your last reply which makes the world a better place ~ Easy to see why you have such a high reputation here; we are all blessed to have you on the side of the torts! Bravo!

A Purpod Peep


----------



## Crazy1 (May 23, 2008)

Minh and purpod thank you for your kind words. 
Just an quick update to my request from http://www.deserttortoise.gov/dtsm/ for permission to long onto the site. Here is the response I recieved this afternoon, which was no surprize.

"Hi Robyn,
The website is for sharing data amongst the many researchers and federal and state agencies. It is not, nor ever will be, accessible to the general public. Sorry.
If you have any questions I may be able to answer them.
AW"


----------



## ZippyButter (May 25, 2008)

Robyn,

The government and many public agencies do not want to tell the truth to the mass. This also applies to many other industries. The only time we could get to the bottom of any things when we tell them we want to use the law that our government has passed, "the freedom of the information act" I still not sure it would help in this situation.

Minh


----------



## Jentortmom (May 25, 2008)

Robyn,
Very nice posts, I agree with you completely!!! This is horrible, when I first read they were thinking of moving them, I was nervous and upset, and my worst fears have come true with the first group that were moved. I just can't believe they moved these torts into an area they knew 1. the current residents are sick - hello do these scientists not know the new ones will catch this, 2. off roaders do not pay attention to the animals - I was out riding last weekend and saw a poor bull snake or gopher snake yearling squashed by a quad, do you think anyone took the time to stop and check on it or remove it?? No, this just makes me sick - and I highly doubt it cost 8.7 mil to move them, that money went to pay off the scientists, oops I meant pay the scientists for there research and pay for the fuel to move these torts.


----------



## purpod (May 25, 2008)

jenrell23 said:


> ... and I highly doubt it cost 8.7 mil to move them, that money went to pay off the scientists, oops I meant pay the scientists for there research and pay for the fuel to move these torts.



So true, so true ~ my 16 year old son wanted to know why the cost was so high as well when we spoke of the situation.. I had to remind him about the line by Judd Hirsch in "Independance Day" when the prez. wanted to know how they funded the project... "You don't really think they spend $10K on a hammer, or $25K on a toilet, do you?"

You know what blows my mind the most? That they are planning to continue with the relocation even tho their first attempt has been a failure! What-the-h*ll?

Anyways, keep the emails, letters and phone calls going out to your representatives just the same, peeps ~ they can't ignore us forever!
Purpod


----------



## chelonologist (Jun 9, 2008)

All,

Your hearts are in the right place, but we're way beyond the comment period for this particular project. It was approved years ago after the DoD consulted with the US Fish and Wildlife Service under Section 7 of the Endangered Species Act. There was no doubt a requirement for the DoD to comply with the National Environmental Policy Act and the California Environmental Quality Act - both of which have public comment periods. No doubt the Center for Biological Diversity and the CTTC as well as many other groups concerned with the environment commented on the project during that part of the process. To say that the DoD did not comply with laws that protect the tortoise would be a gross mis-characterization.

The outcome of the NEPA/CEQA and ESA compliance was a slew of mitigation measures, including scientific research. The USFWS required that this research be conducted following the advice of the best desert tortoise scientists around. Some of the research includes determining the efficacy of translocations so that future ones can be conducted with better results; and research into Upper Respiratory Tract Disease and how it spreads within tortoise populations. These research projects are extremely important for conservation and management of the desert tortoise in the future. I know a good many of the scientists that are working on these projects (I've participated in one myself), and they're all great people with the desert tortoise's best interest in mind. I know of at least one student who will get her Master's degree funded by the DoD on this project, and I'm sure there are others. So some good has come out of all of this. To suggest that scientists have been "paid off" to allow the DoD to do something unethical or illegal would be wrong. Believe me - the scientists working on these projects care about tortoises as much as you do. 

There's been a bit of news about relocated tortoises falling prey to coyotes. Though this was unexpected, it reflects what we're seeing all over the place with resident tortoises. Last fall, before the translocation was even initiated, we saw coyotes turning to tortoises for food across the desert. This was following a pretty sever drought year (it barely rained during the winter of 2006/2007). No rain = no annual wildflowers = decline in granivorous rodents and jackrabbits = decline in available food for coyotes and other top predators. So they turned to tortoises. And now that they've learned that tortoises are a good and easy food source, they're continuing to prey on them. This was the situation the translocated tortoises faced as they were moved to their new homes. Though they are at risk, so are all of the resident tortoises. Steps are being taken to eliminate some of the coyotes on the research plots where tortoises were being preyed on, funded by the DoD. Remember, the DoD wants this translocation to be a success, and they'll go to great lengths to make sure that it does.

The translocated tortoises may face other obstacles before they settle in to their new homes. They've been translocated to BLM lands, which are public lands. That means the public uses these lands, and much of the "uses" could be incompatible with maintaining high quality desert tortoise habitat. I'm sure you can imagine what sort of "uses" I'm referring to. If you're looking for a way to help the translocated tortoises from this point forward, perhaps you can write to your representatives and the BLM and ask that the areas that received the translocated tortoises be protected from further disturbances. That is, now that the tortoises have been moved, let's protect them where they are.

Michael


----------

