# IS IT SAFE AND OKAY TO PAINT YOUR TORTOISE???



## sibi

There some questions as to whether it's safe and acceptable to use nail polish or paint to decorate your tortoise or animal. I submit that it's neither safe nor acceptable to use paint of any kind, regardless of whether or not the paint//polish has lead or other poisonous chemicals. Furthermore, I submit that anyone taking a purely scientific approach to the subject and sees nothing wrong with it, lacks compassion, good sense, and is at risk of sounding cold and sterile.

That's my position, what's yours?


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## Yvonne G

In the olden days, when I was raising leopard tortoises, I put a spot or two or three of nail polish in the center of a scute to I.D. the babies from each other. That way I was able to see that, for example, one spot was not eating, and three spot seems to sleep all the time, etc.

Some people think painted toe nails look nice. Some people paint their faces and think that really looks nice...and some people think that a painted turtle/tortoise looks nice. Do I? no, but then I don't paint my face either.

As long as the paint doesn't contact the new growth lines, I see no harm in it.


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## luvpetz27

I do not agree with any kind of nail polish /paint on a tortoise/turtle.
Why take the chance?


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## IBeenEasy

this is NOT to you yvonne!!..sibi posted a pic about this a few days ago..the person didnt just put a small dot to recognize the animal..the dumb a** painted the whole shell like it was a canvas... this in my eyes is cruel and its just stupid..you would really have to be an ignorant, immature human to paint a fu**ing picture on your tortoise...i dont understand how any one would want to cover there torts shell in harmful, smelly, not natural chemicals from paint. even if the paint is non toxic...its still not natural...the tortoise would not be out getting its shell painted in the wild....sibi i absolutely agree with you on this, its wrong! whats the point


correction...sibi didn't post the photo..but sibi was the first to comment on it...my mistake..but im referring to that post


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## wiccan_chicken

These are tortoises, not hermit crabs. Using dots to ID a baby is perfectly fine with me, same as breeders of dogs using colored twine or painted nails to ID the puppies (A friend of mine paints her puppies nails so she knows which puppy is which and also not to mess up the neck fur of the future show dogs) 

But painting the animal's shell that it can't dispose of.... Like I said this is a tortoise, not a hermit crap. You want to paint something buy a canvas and paint your turtle with a painted shell. I love how my girl Vodka's shell looks golden and the beautiful black speckles look together. I wouldn't pain my russian for the world!


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## Teodora'sDAD

I would have to say I would NEVER use nail polish on any animals. I dont see the harm in something NON TOXIC like chalk or those water markers for little kids. However if you have to hold your tortoise down to do it, I wouldnt say its right. But if he sits there on his own and willingly lets you do it. I dont see the problem. Just dont leave it on there all day. just my two cents.


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## Terry Allan Hall

Have used tempera paint to decorate my torts for a Halloween contest, but nothing that won't come off, not did it cover the entire shell, only parts. 

And they stayed thus decorated until the next day, when I hosed them all off (which they enjoyed, as they always enjoy me hosing them down)...


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## ulkal

Well, I think the question is not whether it is natural but whether it is harmful. The world hasnÂ´t been a "natural" place since humans started farming around 14 000 years ago. Keeping tortoises is not a natural thing to begin with and we impose pretty unnatural stuff like MVBs on them. The question is rather if we meet their complex needs for a healthy development and life.
If it is proven (!!!) as not being harmful, with full consideration of possible dangers to the tortoiseÂ´s health, I think it is okay. 
Personally, I do not see why painting a tortoise. They are so magnificent on their own which is the reason we keep them.
Sorry in case of weird syntax and English in general.
________________________________________________
Okay, Halloween is a reason


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## ShellyTurtlesCats

It's degrading (in my opinion). It's as Bad as dressing a dog or cat and putting them in a purse.

Nail polish isn't good for people. The chemical to remove it is worse (for those that argue nontoxic).

I wouldn't put it on a human baby, damn sure wouldn't put it on a defenseless pet.


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## Baoh

Yvonne G said:


> In the olden days, when I was raising leopard tortoises, I put a spot or two or three of nail polish in the center of a scute to I.D. the babies from each other. That way I was able to see that, for example, one spot was not eating, and three spot seems to sleep all the time, etc.
> 
> Some people think painted toe nails look nice. Some people paint their faces and think that really looks nice...and some people think that a painted turtle/tortoise looks nice. Do I? no, but then I don't paint my face either.
> 
> As long as the paint doesn't contact the new growth lines, I see no harm in it.



This is largely my perspective on it as well.




sibi said:


> There some questions as to whether it's safe and acceptable to use nail polish or paint to decorate your tortoise or animal. I submit that it's neither safe nor acceptable to use paint of any kind, regardless of whether or not the paint//polish has lead or other poisonous chemicals. Furthermore, I submit that anyone taking a purely scientific approach to the subject and sees nothing wrong with it, lacks compassion, good sense, and is at risk of sounding cold and sterile.
> 
> That's my position, what's yours?



Why is it unsafe if there are no poisonous chemicals?

Your emotional appeal is amusing.




IBeenEasy said:


> this is NOT to you yvonne!!..sibi posted a pic about this a few days ago..the person didnt just put a small dot to recognize the animal..the dumb a** painted the whole shell like it was a canvas... this in my eyes is cruel and its just stupid..you would really have to be an ignorant, immature human to paint a fu**ing picture on your tortoise...i dont understand how any one would want to cover there torts shell in harmful, smelly, not natural chemicals from paint. even if the paint is non toxic...its still not natural...the tortoise would not be out getting its shell painted in the wild....sibi i absolutely agree with you on this, its wrong! whats the point
> 
> 
> correction...sibi didn't post the photo..but sibi was the first to comment on it...my mistake..but im referring to that post





Snake venom is natural. Try not to invoke a naturalistic fallacy.

Your entire body is made of chemicals and energy. Completely.

If it is nontoxic, then how is it harmful?

It would not be sitting in a cage in the wild, either. It would not be free of parasites in the wild, either. It would be on its own to defend itself from predators in the wild. The wild is not some Garden of Eden like fantasy.




wiccan_chicken said:


> These are tortoises, not hermit crabs. Using dots to ID a baby is perfectly fine with me, same as breeders of dogs using colored twine or painted nails to ID the puppies (A friend of mine paints her puppies nails so she knows which puppy is which and also not to mess up the neck fur of the future show dogs)
> 
> But painting the animal's shell that it can't dispose of.... Like I said this is a tortoise, not a hermit crap. You want to paint something buy a canvas and paint your turtle with a painted shell. I love how my girl Vodka's shell looks golden and the beautiful black speckles look together. I wouldn't pain my russian for the world!



So then you are okay with painting a tortoise's claws?




ShellyTurtleTort said:


> It's degrading (in my opinion). It's as Bad as dressing a dog or cat and putting them in a purse.
> 
> Nail polish isn't good for people. The chemical to remove it is worse (for those that argue nontoxic).
> 
> I wouldn't put it on a human baby, damn sure wouldn't put it on a defenseless pet.



Yet tortoises are not humans and do not suffer from emotional degradation.

Nail polish is not bad for people. It is not good for people. It is simply liked and used by/for people. Acetone is pretty safe if you do not drink it or try to huff it in quantity. Its volatility is such that it evaporates very rapidly. It is also produced in your, my, and everyone's bodies.

A human baby has more acetone in its body than you do. Inducing ketone production, which involves acetone, can be used therapeutically.


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## ShellyTurtlesCats

Babies chew their hands/toes. I wouldn't feed my baby candy, let alone paint.

I realize turtles/tortoises are not human. No need to point that obvious factor out as it is a complete waste of time & unnecessary sarcasm. And since we are in the topic of human/nonhuman: How exactly would you know what is and or isn't degrading for a tortoise/turtle? 

Covering a shell with paint couldn't be much different than covering a nail. It suffocates your nail! I've damaged my own nails using nontoxic paints and aside from being unflattering, it's unhealthy.

Lastly, 'not good for you' is enough for me.


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## alwaysn2me

People actually dye their dogs and cats with vegan pet hair dye and there has been a tradition of dying hatchling chicks in bright almost Easter egg colors in china for the longest time and the list goes on, people paint their horse hooves and so on. Women wear makeup on their face! Seriously I think some people like to get upset about anything and everything they can! I don't do Facebook or tweeter or anything like that cause social media is destroying the world and America the most!


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## Baoh

ShellyTurtleTort said:


> Babies chew their hands/toes.
> 
> I realize turtles/tortoises are not human. No need to point that obvious factor out as it is a complete waste of time & unnecessary sarcasm.
> 
> And since we are in the topic of human/nonhuman: How exactly would you know what is and or isn't degrading for a tortoise/turtle?
> 
> Covering a shell with paint couldn't be much different than covering a nail. It suffocates your nail! I've damaged my own nails using nontoxic paints and aside from being unflattering, it's unhealthy.
> 
> Lastly, 'not good for you' is enough for me.



And if they chew their hands/toes, and there is no toxic substance on it, then they should be fine.

I will turn that around on you, since you made the point to say that it *is* degrading and the person who stakes the claim is considered to hold the onus for its defense. How exactly would you know what is or is not degrading for a tortoise/turtle?

Suffocates your nail? Really? Come on.

Not good for you applies to a great many things. There is a bit of difference between what does not apply additional goodness versus what applies badness. A pin on your shirt is not good for you, but it is typically not bad for you, either, so I would not crusade against pins on shirts as an abusive and degrading health risk.


Frankly, I think people take up these things because they 1) want to be completely up in the business of other folks, 2) feel like anything anyone else does that is not what they do is somehow a heinous commitment of "wrong", 3) they want the attention, and 4) they like a black-and-white dichotomous view on things because it gives them psychological comfort in simplistic decisions and a false sense of superiority over those who decide in a differing way.


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## hunterk997

To answer the question, yes, it is safe with non-toxic paint. Is it okay? That depends on your opinion. I read through all of this and see both sides, but also see how others are being irrational by saying it's wrong because it's wrong in their opinion. But me, I wouldn't do it. Just because I see no need for it. 
And I've never heard of "painting your nails is bad for them." My mother always has her nails painted. She's always taking it off with nail polish remoer as well, her nails are extremely healthy, actually. And the only thing she does is paint them. Just my opinion. 


Sent from my iPod touch using TortForum mobile app


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## Baoh

hunterk997 said:


> To answer the question, yes, it is safe with non-toxic paint. Is it okay? That depends on your opinion. I read through all of this and see both sides, but also see how others are being irrational by saying it's wrong because it's wrong in their opinion. But me, I wouldn't do it. Just because I see no need for it.
> And I've never heard of "painting your nails is bad for them." My mother always has her nails painted. She's always taking it off with nail polish remoer as well, her nails are extremely healthy, actually. And the only thing she does is paint them. Just my opinion.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using TortForum mobile app



I fall in this same boat completely.


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## sibi

Baoh said:


> ShellyTurtleTort said:
> 
> 
> 
> Babies chew their hands/toes.
> 
> I realize turtles/tortoises are not human. No need to point that obvious factor out as it is a complete waste of time & unnecessary sarcasm.
> 
> And since we are in the topic of human/nonhuman: How exactly would you know what is and or isn't degrading for a tortoise/turtle?
> 
> Covering a shell with paint couldn't be much different than covering a nail. It suffocates your nail! I've damaged my own nails using nontoxic paints and aside from being unflattering, it's unhealthy.
> 
> Lastly, 'not good for you' is enough for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And if they chew their hands/toes, and there is no toxic substance on it, then they should be fine.
> 
> I will turn that around on you, since you made the point to say that it *is* degrading and the person who stakes the claim is considered to hold the onus for its defense. How exactly would you know what is or is not degrading for a tortoise/turtle?
> 
> Suffocates your nail? Really? Come on.
> 
> Not good for you applies to a great many things. There is a bit of difference between what does not apply additional goodness versus what applies badness. A pin on your shirt is not good for you, but it is typically not bad for you, either, so I would not crusade against pins on shirts as an abusive and degrading health risk.
> 
> 
> Frankly, I think people take up these things because they 1) want to be completely up in the business of other folks, 2) feel like anything anyone else does that is not what they do is somehow a heinous commitment of "wrong", 3) they want the attention, and 4) they like a black-and-white dichotomous view on things because it gives them psychological comfort in simplistic decisions and a false sense of superiority over those who decide in a differing way.
Click to expand...




RESPONSE: Stick to the topic! You analysis on why you believe people bring bring up these issues is totally wrong. Unlike you, some of us are passionate about what we believe is "right and wrong." It's not about controlling the masses into thinking the way someone else thinks. If you had some childhood psychological trama about "control" issues, I can't help you with that. There are doctors for that. And your last reason why you believe people debate issues like this was so off the mark so as to make you sound like an anal retentive elitist. I give people the benefit of the doubt so as to think that humans are much more complicated than to state some of us take a dichotomous view of black and white on this issue. I give our members more credit than that. When someone has to resort to question a person's ability to critical thinking, it's usually a deficiency on their part. So, let people express their opinions without resorting to insults and sarcasms. Yes, this applies to me too.


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## dokomadake

I would say non-toxic nail paint or nail polish is fine. And its COMLETELY UP TO YOU whether you want to do this to the tortoise or not. 

Sent from my SGH-M919 using TortForum mobile app


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## Jacqui

Just a reminder folks... debate the topic, don't go into pesonal attacks....


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## ILoveTortoises2

I don't mind putting a NON-TOXIC paint on the hatchling to tell them apart OR to let the buyer tell the seller what one they would like. So other then that I do NOT AGREE with painting a tortoise OR ANY animal for that matter......


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## ShellyTurtlesCats

I have a headache. Not from this, just a random headache that has lead me to this vague and carless post:

I like turtles. Yes. I do


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## Baoh

sibi said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ShellyTurtleTort said:
> 
> 
> 
> Babies chew their hands/toes.
> 
> I realize turtles/tortoises are not human. No need to point that obvious factor out as it is a complete waste of time & unnecessary sarcasm.
> 
> And since we are in the topic of human/nonhuman: How exactly would you know what is and or isn't degrading for a tortoise/turtle?
> 
> Covering a shell with paint couldn't be much different than covering a nail. It suffocates your nail! I've damaged my own nails using nontoxic paints and aside from being unflattering, it's unhealthy.
> 
> Lastly, 'not good for you' is enough for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And if they chew their hands/toes, and there is no toxic substance on it, then they should be fine.
> 
> I will turn that around on you, since you made the point to say that it *is* degrading and the person who stakes the claim is considered to hold the onus for its defense. How exactly would you know what is or is not degrading for a tortoise/turtle?
> 
> Suffocates your nail? Really? Come on.
> 
> Not good for you applies to a great many things. There is a bit of difference between what does not apply additional goodness versus what applies badness. A pin on your shirt is not good for you, but it is typically not bad for you, either, so I would not crusade against pins on shirts as an abusive and degrading health risk.
> 
> 
> Frankly, I think people take up these things because they 1) want to be completely up in the business of other folks, 2) feel like anything anyone else does that is not what they do is somehow a heinous commitment of "wrong", 3) they want the attention, and 4) they like a black-and-white dichotomous view on things because it gives them psychological comfort in simplistic decisions and a false sense of superiority over those who decide in a differing way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RESPONSE: Stick to the topic! You analysis on why you believe people bring bring up these issues is totally wrong. Unlike you, some of us are passionate about what we believe is "right and wrong." It's not about controlling the masses into thinking the way someone else thinks. If you had some childhood psychological trama about "control" issues, I can't help you with that. There are doctors for that. And your last reason why you believe people debate issues like this was so off the mark so as to make you sound like an anal retentive elitist. I give people the benefit of the doubt so as to think that humans are much more complicated than to state some of us take a dichotomous view of black and white on this issue. I give our members more credit than that. When someone has to resort to question a person's ability to critical thinking, it's usually a deficiency on their part. So, let people express their opinions without resorting to insults and sarcasms. Yes, this applies to me too.
Click to expand...




I am unable to see any of what you claim in your posts on the matter.


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## redfoot_mama94

In my opinion, petsafe like specific non-toxic pet nail polish would be fine on a torts claws, there is even baby safe nail polish which I think would probably be okay also. Using the mind set that shells are made of mostly keratin (i believe?) And nails are also majorly keratin so except on new growth pet polish and/or baby nail polish would theoretically be okay on shells? No bashing here please im just thinking outloud here  also, as for a photoshoot like just for fun or for Halloween especially I don't see why non toxic paint should be an issue. 

As for the 'decorative' concept, some find it degrading, some find it cute or attractive. It's all a matter of opinion and i don't think that is what we're debating here but I might be wrong 

1.1 human baby's (grayson & mackenzie)
1.1 bunnies
0.1 eastern painted (wendy)
0.1 treeing walker coonhound (daisy)
0.1.5 mainecoon mix (vera & her kittens)


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## Team Gomberg

I put a small dot of nail polish on my female Russians to help me identify them. It's on the scute over their butt, right in the center not, touching new growth. 

My newest Leopard hatchlings had nail polish dots also. I removed them because I can identify them easily by their patterns.

To answer the original question,
I have no reservations about doing so because I have concluded it to be safe.


Sent from my TFOapp


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## Tom

My opinions on the matter:

I don't like seeing turtles and tortoises "painted". I don't think they care one bit, but I dislike it for purely emotional, personal reasons.

I don't see it as harmful to the tortoise if the paint isn't toxic and its washed off fairly soon, AND if the tortoise doesn't mind the extra "attention" while its being painted.

I have zero problem with nail polish dots to ID tortoises in groups. I'm guilty of this one myself, and plan to do it again.

I do have a problem with some paints, like nail polish, being painted into, and left on, the growth lines of tortoises. I think this might be able to do damage in some circumstances, yet I offer no proof of this. Mere speculation on my part, given some of the growth anomalies I've seen over the years.


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## wiccan_chicken

wiccan_chicken said:


> These are tortoises, not hermit crabs. Using dots to ID a baby is perfectly fine with me, same as breeders of dogs using colored twine or painted nails to ID the puppies (A friend of mine paints her puppies nails so she knows which puppy is which and also not to mess up the neck fur of the future show dogs)
> 
> But painting the animal's shell that it can't dispose of.... Like I said this is a tortoise, not a hermit crap. You want to paint something buy a canvas and paint your turtle with a painted shell. I love how my girl Vodka's shell looks golden and the beautiful black speckles look together. I wouldn't paint my russian for the world!



So then you are okay with painting a tortoise's claws?


I don't see the harm or good in it. A few dots on a scute to ID is as far as I would go with a tortoise, but the claws of puppies were being painted basically for the purpose of the dots on the scute. One or two nails on one paw were painted and that's it. That's when the whole litter were salt and pepper Schnauzers. It would be tedious and aggravating to paint a tortoises claws because they would pull away and digging would wear the paint off way too fast. What's the point? 

I find it silly to paint a dog or tortoise with nail polish or dye them. Like how the chickens are dyed for easter. Sure it looks cute but what's the point? It won't stay that color forever. 

I am completely against letting a child or person paint their tortoise just for cosmetic reasons unless it is easy to wash off, like the halloween contest. I don't approve of using acrylics or sharpie on a vast majority of the tortoise because it might stain the shell, it will be hard to wear off and some of the chemicals might seep through a part of the tort and make it sick or harm it. And if it doesn't make it sick, it will be there for a long time. I would rather crochet my tort a pumpkin or dino costume than paint it but if I ever did it would be with tempera paints because they're non toxic and super easy to remove. ( If I can crochet it I definatley won't paint it. I'd rather make something by hand that can be used again and again plus I would rather not paint my tort for the reason's stated above.)


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## Yvonne G

You all DO understand "debate," right? It doesn't mean you're supposed to get mad and start calling each other names if the other guy doesn't agree with your stance on the subject. It means, you make your point, the other guy rebutts and makes his point, back and forth, etc, ad infinitum (read nauseum).

It serves NO purpose when you start to get mad and the posts go downhill.


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## luvpetz27

Yvonne G said:


> You all DO understand "debate," right? It doesn't mean you're supposed to get mad and start calling each other names if the other guy doesn't agree with your stance on the subject. It means, you make your point, the other guy rebutts and makes his point, back and forth, etc, ad infinitum (read nauseum).
> 
> It serves NO purpose when you start to get mad and the posts go downhill.



I think it is hard sometimes not to get mad. A lot of the debates seem to get out of control sometimes. I think it is a normal reaction with some people who really believe in something. This is just my opinion. I am sure we ALL have got a little out of control on one thread or another.


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## wellington

I don't like painting any animal for any reason. Not for fun, holidays or a picture. For marking an animal to tell them apart, that I see no harm, mainly so they can be picked out of a for sale pic. I never had to do this. I have only bred dogs and could tell them apart very easily.


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## Sh3wulf

Tortoises are so naturally stunning I don't understand people's inclination for decorating them further. But I have tattoos, piercings, and wear make up and high heels regularly, so I may be biased and a bit of a hypocrite here, but don't feel that the argument of it being unnatural is a valid point. as has been stated, the very idea that having a Russian, Leopard, Greek, whatever you currently have residing with you, is natural is a contradiction. Tortoises are wild animals. We haven't domesticated them, they reside with us because they are kept in enclosures, pens, tanks. We medicate them, feed them a variety of foods consistently and handle them. All unnatural. In the wild they would be subject to incline by weather, parasites, destruction of feeding grounds, hunting, poaching and a myriad of other horrors.
Therefore if the painting of a tort is someones inclination and doesn't harm there companion I would conclude that no one has a right to tell anyone else what they may or may not do with an animal they are taking reasonably good care of. 
As a side, Glad to see the debate return to a debate about polish. Sorry to the members that were offended or feeling defensive, personal attacks during debate are uncalled for, thus why I took my time weighing in. 
Sincerely tattooed freak lol


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## sibi

The issue I see here is one of health...the health of a tortoise. The notion that nail polish, even those marked as safe, is really not safe at all. If your nail products is labeled "Toxin-Free" but contains the â€œToxic Threeâ€ chemicals (Dibutyl phthalate (DBP), Toluene, Formaldehyde), then it's toxic to you and your tortoise. Note what this article has to say:

"The California EPAâ€™s Department of Toxic Substances Control (DTSC) researchers sent 25 nail products from various salons across the state to an independent lab for testing to see if they contained three specific chemicals:

Dibutyl phthalate (DBP)
Toluene
Formaldehyde

Known as the â€œtoxic three,â€ these chemicals present potential health risks, including asthma, developmental problems, and other illnesses.

All three are linked to chronic health conditions if inhaled. Toluene and formaldehyde have been tested on both humans and animals; DBP has only been tested on animals.

DBP has been banned for use in nail products throughout Europe, which also has strict limits on the amount of formaldehyde and toluene that can be used. However in the U.S., use of these chemicals in nail products is not illegal, as long as the bottles or other containers are properly labeled.

Testing of the products revealed that:

Many of the 25 tested were labeled toxin-free, but some contained one or more of the three chemicals.
Five of 7 products claiming to be "free of the toxic three" had one or more of the chemicals in significant levels.
Ten of 12 products that claimed to be free of toluene actually contained it, and 4 of the 10 had dangerously high levels.

So are the labels on some nail products deliberately misleading? Youâ€™ll have to decide for yourself.

One manufacturer of nail products labeled as toxin-free but found to contain one or more of the â€œtoxic threeâ€ chemicals says he disputes the DTSC report and plans to challenge it.

Another manufacturer whose products were found to contain toluene says he has no idea how the chemical got there and suggests perhaps it was contaminated during testing by the DTSC.

My Recommendations

Read Dr. Mercolaâ€™s article New Warning About Manicures, Piercings and Tattoos and pay special attention to the section titled The Health Dangers of Manicures and Nail Polish.
Consult the Environmental Working Groupâ€™s Skin Deep Cosmetics Database for help determining the safety of the nail products you use (or to get help finding safer products).
If you do your own nails at home, I recommend keeping your pet out of the room until the job is done, your nails are completely dry, youâ€™ve put all the products away out of reach of your pet, and youâ€™ve washed your hands thoroughly with soap and warm water.
If you canâ€™t resist polishing your dogâ€™s nails, use a quick-drying pet-safe polish and polish remover. Your dogâ€™s nails, pads and paws should be in good shape, with no cracks, tears, open sores or any other condition that could be aggravated by polish or polish remover. Donâ€™t allow your dog to lick or bite at her nails until they dry, and if you find sheâ€™s licking or chewing at them after theyâ€™re dry, I recommend removing the polish just to be on the safe side."

Source: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/05/28/pets-nail-polish-hazards.aspx

Is painting your tortoise worth the risk of toxicity? Mind you, tests conducted were of "healthy specimens." Now factor in if your tortoise's shell is cracked, pyramiding, damaged in some same, the amount of toxicity has just increased. 

Yes, people are free do whatever they want to their animals, but to be blindsided into thinking "so long as there's no harm done," is deceiving yourself. Harm is being done, whether you are aware of it or not, and the one who pays the ultimate price is your animal.


.


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## Baoh

LOL

Mercola.

All you had to post was his name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Mercola


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## Kapidolo Farms

I am able to use images to sort species with patterns like leopards, pancakes, etc. For those with no pattern a sharpie and a few dots and I can keep dozens sorted out by how many dots are in which scute.

Simple, effective, and easy.


Will


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## Baoh

Yeah, I do not need to mark mine at all to track them, but other breeders see a benefit and I have noticed it is easier for buyers to keep things straight when making selections (I offer selections; sometimes this is a pain since I do not mark mine, but I take group photos generally and just have them draw a circle in MS Paint or something similar).


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## luvpetz27

sibi said:


> The issue I see here is one of health...the health of a tortoise. The notion that nail polish, even those marked as safe, is really not safe at all. If your nail products is labeled "Toxin-Free" but contains the â€œToxic Threeâ€ chemicals (Dibutyl phthalate (DBP), Toluene, Formaldehyde), then it's toxic to you and your tortoise. Note what this article has to say:
> 
> "The California EPAâ€™s Department of Toxic Substances Control (DTSC) researchers sent 25 nail products from various salons across the state to an independent lab for testing to see if they contained three specific chemicals:
> 
> Dibutyl phthalate (DBP)
> Toluene
> Formaldehyde
> 
> Known as the â€œtoxic three,â€ these chemicals present potential health risks, including asthma, developmental problems, and other illnesses.
> 
> All three are linked to chronic health conditions if inhaled. Toluene and formaldehyde have been tested on both humans and animals; DBP has only been tested on animals.
> 
> DBP has been banned for use in nail products throughout Europe, which also has strict limits on the amount of formaldehyde and toluene that can be used. However in the U.S., use of these chemicals in nail products is not illegal, as long as the bottles or other containers are properly labeled.
> 
> Testing of the products revealed that:
> 
> Many of the 25 tested were labeled toxin-free, but some contained one or more of the three chemicals.
> Five of 7 products claiming to be "free of the toxic three" had one or more of the chemicals in significant levels.
> Ten of 12 products that claimed to be free of toluene actually contained it, and 4 of the 10 had dangerously high levels.
> 
> So are the labels on some nail products deliberately misleading? Youâ€™ll have to decide for yourself.
> 
> One manufacturer of nail products labeled as toxin-free but found to contain one or more of the â€œtoxic threeâ€ chemicals says he disputes the DTSC report and plans to challenge it.
> 
> Another manufacturer whose products were found to contain toluene says he has no idea how the chemical got there and suggests perhaps it was contaminated during testing by the DTSC.
> 
> My Recommendations
> 
> Read Dr. Mercolaâ€™s article New Warning About Manicures, Piercings and Tattoos and pay special attention to the section titled The Health Dangers of Manicures and Nail Polish.
> Consult the Environmental Working Groupâ€™s Skin Deep Cosmetics Database for help determining the safety of the nail products you use (or to get help finding safer products).
> If you do your own nails at home, I recommend keeping your pet out of the room until the job is done, your nails are completely dry, youâ€™ve put all the products away out of reach of your pet, and youâ€™ve washed your hands thoroughly with soap and warm water.
> If you canâ€™t resist polishing your dogâ€™s nails, use a quick-drying pet-safe polish and polish remover. Your dogâ€™s nails, pads and paws should be in good shape, with no cracks, tears, open sores or any other condition that could be aggravated by polish or polish remover. Donâ€™t allow your dog to lick or bite at her nails until they dry, and if you find sheâ€™s licking or chewing at them after theyâ€™re dry, I recommend removing the polish just to be on the safe side."
> 
> Source: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/05/28/pets-nail-polish-hazards.aspx
> 
> Is painting your tortoise worth the risk of toxicity? Mind you, tests conducted were of "healthy specimens." Now factor in if your tortoise's shell is cracked, pyramiding, damaged in some same, the amount of toxicity has just increased.
> 
> Yes, people are free do whatever they want to their animals, but to be blindsided into thinking "so long as there's no harm done," is deceiving yourself. Harm is being done, whether you are aware of it or not, and the one who pays the ultimate price is your animal.
> 
> 
> .



THANK YOU! Great info!




Baoh said:


> LOL
> 
> Mercola.
> 
> All you had to post was his name.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Mercola



Wow......really? This is the kind of smart*** comment that starts the bashing!!


----------



## Baoh

Really. Do some research. There are very good reasons why he is an oft-highlighted subject of Quack Watch.

The link I posted, which you quoted, provides plenty of interesting subject matter.


----------



## hunterk997

Sh3wulf said:


> Tortoises are so naturally stunning I don't understand people's inclination for decorating them further. But I have tattoos, piercings, and wear make up and high heels regularly, so I may be biased and a bit of a hypocrite here, but don't feel that the argument of it being unnatural is a valid point. as has been stated, the very idea that having a Russian, Leopard, Greek, whatever you currently have residing with you, is natural is a contradiction. Tortoises are wild animals. We haven't domesticated them, they reside with us because they are kept in enclosures, pens, tanks. We medicate them, feed them a variety of foods consistently and handle them. All unnatural. In the wild they would be subject to incline by weather, parasites, destruction of feeding grounds, hunting, poaching and a myriad of other horrors.
> Therefore if the painting of a tort is someones inclination and doesn't harm there companion I would conclude that no one has a right to tell anyone else what they may or may not do with an animal they are taking reasonably good care of.
> As a side, Glad to see the debate return to a debate about polish. Sorry to the members that were offended or feeling defensive, personal attacks during debate are uncalled for, thus why I took my time weighing in.
> Sincerely tattooed freak lol


I completely agree with you on this. Those are some really great points.


----------



## Joanne

I enjoyed reading this thread!

I tend to not paint my nails on my hands, because when I did my nails became weak and brittle. I do paint my toe nails and they are hard as.... Nails I guess!

I have painted my dogs nails silver in the past so he would look like wolverine. The dog allowed me to do this and in no way was he forced.

I would personally not paint Shermann's shell. I would rather oil it up and get it all shiny. I like shiny things.


----------



## sibi

Good for you because I have found some nasty chemicals in the nail polishes I have at home. I can't imagine what kind of damage it does to a tort whose shell is almost entirely painted with the stuff.


----------



## Joanne

The good old EU mothership makes sure there are no harmful chemicals in my nail varnishes  they also make sure that my bananas aren't too straight!


----------



## Rural

I would think it's unhealthy, but I don't know if it's directly unsafe, even though you're basically putting chemicals on the torts shell for the removal with nailpolish remover or acetone. I personally think it's unacceptable to do body mods on your pet, no matter if it's nail polish on a turtle shell or a gold teeth on a dog. I think nail polish, piercings, grillz, stretched ears, tattoos etc. is for humans who choose to get them, not animals who the owner want them look aesthetic.


----------



## jodiewaite23

I think that tortoises are the most beautiful creatures on the planet, and I wouldn't change my baby for the world. I think that because they are really different from other creatures (with the shell obviously), that people think it is okay to paint them because they haven't got fur. 

However, would you paint a dog's back? Because effectively, I guess that is what you're doing to your tortoise. It isn't dye, like you could dye fur, it is PAINT, toxic or non-toxic. In my opinion, tortoises shouldn't be subjected to anything that another animal wouldn't be subjected to, and painted or dyed animals are far and in between. ID marks are a different matter, because that is for the identity and safety of the tortoise. But painting a beautiful creature for our own amusement is just sad. If an owner doesn't love their pet the way it is, they should consider buying a pet they find beautiful. 

This is my opinion, and I respect everyone else's views. 

Great debate, really interesting 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using TortForum mobile app


----------



## Yellow Turtle

I won't paint my torts' shells, I like the natural looking, but I personally see no harm in painting your torts' shells, as long as you can put those paints on your bodies...

I really see no point debating over the ways how people debating here... If you not agree with someone's comments, just debate it back or stay quiet...


----------



## ColinF87

When I got Ringo he had a small dot of nail varnish on his back, put there by the breeder to identify him (you can see it in my avatar photo). It came off with some acetone-free remover, and he's shown no sign of any ill effects. To me something like that is fine; the tort doesn't care and it takes seconds to put on and remove. I agree with what some others have said about more permanent decorations and painting though - what's the point? Tortoises are beautiful creatures anyway, there's no need to add to what they already have - especially if they end up being restrained while it's being done.


----------



## gieseygirly

My opinion on this topic is very simple:

1. Why would anyone want to ruin the natural beauty of a tortoise or turtle of any kind by painting it? Simply irrational.

2. How about if a giant creature put paint, or even worse, fingernail polish, on top of your head, face, arms, etc. and let's see how well you can breathe until it dries. Heck, maybe you'll even get dizzy and pass out. This is the "duh, don't do it" factor.


----------



## ShellyTurtlesCats

Almost all of our food here in the US has been tainted and pumped with crap. Our food is banned in many other places around the World due to that. Our foods aren't even considered 'safe' for consumption!

If Big Brother doesn't mind putting crap in your food while not labeling it, don't even assume for a second that nail polish is safe (even if it says it is).

Just thought I'd chime in one last time. If you want to paint something pretty; go paint your house, car, bike or self and leave the animals alone.

(In my opinion, of course)


----------



## sibi

That's the point of the debate. Is the paint safe enough to put on yourself? If our government agency on the health of our workers (OSHA) warns that the ingredients in nail polish and acetone are dangerous if applied on skin or breathing in the vapors, and have set up laws and standards to prevent illnesses in the workplace, then maybe we should reconsider applying paint on our tortoise's shell. Of course, we're not speaking of dots to ID hatchlings; we're speaking of covering half of the tort in nail polish, which I'd remind people, was what started this debate in the first place. If someone wants to verify the validity of the dangerous chemicals in nail polish, let them check the official website of OSHA or refer to any study they can find that would collaborate their claims.


Yellow Turtle said:


> I won't paint my torts' shells, I like the natural looking, but I personally see no harm in painting your torts' shells, as long as you can put those paints on your bodies...
> 
> I really see no point debating over the ways how people debating here... If you not agree with someone's comments, just debate it back or stay quiet...


----------



## Baoh

gieseygirly said:


> My opinion on this topic is very simple:
> 
> 1. Why would anyone want to ruin the natural beauty of a tortoise or turtle of any kind by painting it? Simply irrational.
> 
> 2. How about if a giant creature put paint, or even worse, fingernail polish, on top of your head, face, arms, etc. and let's see how well you can breathe until it dries. Heck, maybe you'll even get dizzy and pass out. This is the "duh, don't do it" factor.



The concept of beauty is individual. The belief that this is absolutely universal is simply irrational.




ShellyTurtleTort said:


> Almost all of our food here in the US has been tainted and pumped with crap. Our food is banned in many other places around the World due to that. Our foods aren't even considered 'safe' for consumption!
> 
> If Big Brother doesn't mind putting crap in your food while not labeling it, don't even assume for a second that nail polish is safe (even if it says it is).
> 
> Just thought I'd chime in one last time. If you want to paint something pretty; go paint your house, car, bike or self and leave the animals alone.
> 
> (In my opinion, of course)



Most of our food bans come from disagreements regarding the nature, impacts, and labeling of foods derives from GMOs or the express concern for specific means of disease transmission.

This includes GMOs like Golden Rice, which prevents something like 200, 000 (I forget the exact number) cases of blindness a year that were produced prior to its introduction and distribution.

Not "almost all".

Our foods are safe for consumption.

Ingredient labels are quite clear and slippery slopes based on false premises are...fascinating.


----------



## gieseygirly

Baoh said:


> gieseygirly said:
> 
> 
> 
> My opinion on this topic is very simple:
> 
> 1. Why would anyone want to ruin the natural beauty of a tortoise or turtle of any kind by painting it? Simply irrational.
> 
> 2. How about if a giant creature put paint, or even worse, fingernail polish, on top of your head, face, arms, etc. and let's see how well you can breathe until it dries. Heck, maybe you'll even get dizzy and pass out. This is the "duh, don't do it" factor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The concept of beauty is individual. The belief that this is absolutely universal is simply irrational.
Click to expand...


As previously stated, it's my opinion that I'm obviously not timid in voicing.


----------



## Baoh

sibi said:


> That's the point of the debate. Is the paint safe enough to put on yourself? If our government agency on the health of our workers (OSHA) warns that the ingredients in nail polish and acetone are dangerous if applied on skin or breathing in the vapors, and have set up laws and standards to prevent illnesses in the workplace, then maybe we should reconsider applying paint on our tortoise's shell. Of course, we're not speaking of dots to ID hatchlings; we're speaking of covering half of the tort in nail polish, which I'd remind people, was what started this debate in the first place. If someone wants to verify the validity of the dangerous chemicals in nail polish, let them check the official website of OSHA or refer to any study they can find that would collaborate their claims.
> 
> 
> Yellow Turtle said:
> 
> 
> 
> I won't paint my torts' shells, I like the natural looking, but I personally see no harm in painting your torts' shells, as long as you can put those paints on your bodies...
> 
> I really see no point debating over the ways how people debating here... If you not agree with someone's comments, just debate it back or stay quiet...
Click to expand...


You seem to not understand the point of OSHA, the function of an MSDS, exposure limits, or that -for all chemicals including water- toxicity is determined by dose.

Go read the MSDS on water or calcium carbonate. These matters have a context. That context is necessary for the formation of accurate perspective. It is sad to see this type of very useful information willfully misinterpreted.




gieseygirly said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gieseygirly said:
> 
> 
> 
> My opinion on this topic is very simple:
> 
> 1. Why would anyone want to ruin the natural beauty of a tortoise or turtle of any kind by painting it? Simply irrational.
> 
> 2. How about if a giant creature put paint, or even worse, fingernail polish, on top of your head, face, arms, etc. and let's see how well you can breathe until it dries. Heck, maybe you'll even get dizzy and pass out. This is the "duh, don't do it" factor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The concept of beauty is individual. The belief that this is absolutely universal is simply irrational.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As previously stated, it's my opinion that I'm obviously not timid in voicing.
Click to expand...


Everyone's concept of beauty is an opinion.


----------



## gieseygirly

Baoh said:


> sibi said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's the point of the debate. Is the paint safe enough to put on yourself? If our government agency on the health of our workers (OSHA) warns that the ingredients in nail polish and acetone are dangerous if applied on skin or breathing in the vapors, and have set up laws and standards to prevent illnesses in the workplace, then maybe we should reconsider applying paint on our tortoise's shell. Of course, we're not speaking of dots to ID hatchlings; we're speaking of covering half of the tort in nail polish, which I'd remind people, was what started this debate in the first place. If someone wants to verify the validity of the dangerous chemicals in nail polish, let them check the official website of OSHA or refer to any study they can find that would collaborate their claims.
> 
> 
> Yellow Turtle said:
> 
> 
> 
> I won't paint my torts' shells, I like the natural looking, but I personally see no harm in painting your torts' shells, as long as you can put those paints on your bodies...
> 
> I really see no point debating over the ways how people debating here... If you not agree with someone's comments, just debate it back or stay quiet...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You seem to not understand the point of OSHA, the function of an MSDS, exposure limits, or that -for all chemicals including water- toxicity is determined by dose.
> 
> Go read the MSDS on water or calcium carbonate. These matters have a context. That context is necessary for the formation of accurate perspective. It is sad to see this type of very useful information willfully misinterpreted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gieseygirly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gieseygirly said:
> 
> 
> 
> My opinion on this topic is very simple:
> 
> 1. Why would anyone want to ruin the natural beauty of a tortoise or turtle of any kind by painting it? Simply irrational.
> 
> 2. How about if a giant creature put paint, or even worse, fingernail polish, on top of your head, face, arms, etc. and let's see how well you can breathe until it dries. Heck, maybe you'll even get dizzy and pass out. This is the "duh, don't do it" factor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The concept of beauty is individual. The belief that this is absolutely universal is simply irrational.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As previously stated, it's my opinion that I'm obviously not timid in voicing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Everyone's concept of beauty is an opinion.
Click to expand...




Uh huh


----------



## ShellyTurtlesCats

*Re: RE: IS IT SAFE AND OKAY TO PAINT YOUR TORTOISE???*



> Most of our food bans come from disagreements regarding the nature, impacts, and labeling of foods derives from GMOs or the express concern for specific means of disease transmission.
> 
> This includes GMOs like Golden Rice, which prevents something like 200, 000 (I forget the exact number) cases of blindness a year that were produced prior to its introduction and distribution.
> 
> Not "almost all".
> 
> Our foods are safe for consumption.
> 
> Ingredient labels are quite clear and slippery slopes based on false premises are...fascinating.





The word 'safe' is disputable.


----------



## Baoh

The so is its opposite.


----------



## ShellyTurtlesCats

*Re: RE: IS IT SAFE AND OKAY TO PAINT YOUR TORTOISE???*



Baoh said:


> The so is its opposite.





That's certain!


----------



## Baoh

ShellyTurtleTort said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> 
> The so is its opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's certain!
Click to expand...


That is disputable.


----------



## ShellyTurtlesCats

Hahaha...


----------



## sibi

I understand perfectly the point of OSHA. I UNDERSTAND BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT AN AUTHORITY ON OSHA. YOU ARE NOT AN AUTHORITY ON THE TESTS THEY'VE CONDUCTED TO ARRIVE AT THEIR CONCLUSIONS. YOU ARE NOT A CHEMIST.
If any study, report, opinion, law, findings or analysis don't agree with what YOU THINK YOU KNOW about the toxicities in paint, lacquers, polish, or acetone, you ridicule, poke fun at, undermine, intimidate, or otherwise dismiss any claims as irrational, amusing, fascinating, or sad (your words, not mine). It makes me wonder if you have stocks in nail polish, or are you just s*****! Look, most members here have common sense. If common sense have many breeders, experts in their respective fields of study, including veterinary medicine say they would NOT paint their animals carapace and/or growth lines, wouldn't you think that there just might be a good reason for it? Common sense also dictates that anyone (YOU) who would use acetone on their torts is not credible and is no expert in the field. You keep doing what you want to do, but we have no reason to believe you or trust YOUR opinion! 



Baoh said:


> sibi said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's the point of the debate. Is the paint safe enough to put on yourself? If our government agency on the health of our workers (OSHA) warns that the ingredients in nail polish and acetone are dangerous if applied on skin or breathing in the vapors, and have set up laws and standards to prevent illnesses in the workplace, then maybe we should reconsider applying paint on our tortoise's shell. Of course, we're not speaking of dots to ID hatchlings; we're speaking of covering half of the tort in nail polish, which I'd remind people, was what started this debate in the first place. If someone wants to verify the validity of the dangerous chemicals in nail polish, let them check the official website of OSHA or refer to any study they can find that would collaborate their claims.
> 
> 
> Yellow Turtle said:
> 
> 
> 
> I won't paint my torts' shells, I like the natural looking, but I personally see no harm in painting your torts' shells, as long as you can put those paints on your bodies...
> 
> I really see no point debating over the ways how people debating here... If you not agree with someone's comments, just debate it back or stay quiet...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You seem to not understand the point of OSHA, the function of an MSDS, exposure limits, or that -for all chemicals including water- toxicity is determined by dose.
> 
> Go read the MSDS on water or calcium carbonate. These matters have a context. That context is necessary for the formation of accurate perspective. It is sad to see this type of very useful information willfully misinterpreted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gieseygirly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gieseygirly said:
> 
> 
> 
> My opinion on this topic is very simple:
> 
> 1. Why would anyone want to ruin the natural beauty of a tortoise or turtle of any kind by painting it? Simply irrational.
> 
> 2. How about if a giant creature put paint, or even worse, fingernail polish, on top of your head, face, arms, etc. and let's see how well you can breathe until it dries. Heck, maybe you'll even get dizzy and pass out. This is the "duh, don't do it" factor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The concept of beauty is individual. The belief that this is absolutely universal is simply irrational.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As previously stated, it's my opinion that I'm obviously not timid in voicing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Everyone's concept of beauty is an opinion.
Click to expand...


----------



## Saleama

Did not read the entire thread, but...
I have never seen a painted turtle or tortoise that was painted out of evil malicious intent. The end result aside, most painted turtles and tortoises are painted out of love by a misinformed pet owner. Never have I seen a tortoise walking down the garden path being ridiculed by the other tortoises for their colorful decorations so the degrading arguement is a little out there. Also, I thought this was supposed to be a debatable topic yet it seems whoever is not against the practice and says so here is getting attacked for their opinion.
As for this "wild" that is so often spoken of. If you are SO concerned about painting a tortoise not being something they do in the "wild" then unless you live in the "wild" and that is where your torts live then, um, well, I won't call you a hypocrite but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
By the way, paining my lil guys is something that I would never do and I would be hard pressed not to beat the heck out of someone should they ever think to paint one of my babes. But that is because they are little beauties just like they are and no paint could change that!


----------



## Irish

I was born naturally. I did not come out with tattoos. I chose several tattoos and they are as I would have my skin to be. Did it harm me? 

If I choose to paint a tort shell with anything that is not harmful, then what is the harm? 

Is a captive bred tort going to be released back into the wild? Wouldn't that be cruel? 

Then should we treat CB vs. WC differently, when we own either, and neither type will be released? 

If we own them And do not plan to release them to the wild, does that not play in to our vanity? Then why not paint them to suit our tastes (with non-harmful paints)? Is that any less vain than ownership to begin with, with the intent to keep an posess?




Baoh said:


> gieseygirly said:
> 
> 
> 
> My opinion on this topic is very simple:
> 
> 1. Why would anyone want to ruin the natural beauty of a tortoise or turtle of any kind by painting it? Simply irrational.
> 
> Halloween Is the time for costumes. Is it wrong to put dogs in costume? Does that cause them harm?
> 
> 2. How about if a giant creature put paint, or even worse, fingernail polish, on top of your head, face, arms, etc. and let's see how well you can breathe until it dries. Heck, maybe you'll even get dizzy and pass out. This is the "duh, don't do it" factor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why do you "own" your animals? Are you planning to release them back to th wild? Or are you the "giant" that Wants to enjoy possessing such a rewarding "pet?"
Click to expand...


----------



## sibi

Hello guys...this debate didn't begin about PAINTING your torts with NON-TOXIC NAIL POLISH. If it can be proven that nail polish is truly non-toxic, then this debate would be moot. It was a question of whether or not "nail polish" is safe to use. The discussion had mainly been my assertions that nail polish is toxic because it has one or more toxic ingredients that can cause harm to torts as well as people. So, if you can definitely say that the paint/nail polish is truly non-toxic, then you can do anything you want to your tort. In fact, even if you find paint to be toxic, it's still your prerogative to do as you please. That's not in dispute. Having said that, I believe you would do what's right toward the animal in your care.



Irish said:



> I was born naturally. I did not come out with tattoos. I chose several tattoos and they are as I would have my skin to be. Did it harm me?
> 
> If I choose to paint a tort shell with anything that is not harmful, then what is the harm?
> 
> Is a captive bred tort going to be released back into the wild? Wouldn't that be cruel?
> 
> Then should we treat CB vs. WC differently, when we own either, and neither type will be released?
> 
> If we own them And do not plan to release them to the wild, does that not play in to our vanity? Then why not paint them to suit our tastes (with non-harmful paints)? Is that any less vain than ownership to begin with, with the intent to keep an posess?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gieseygirly said:
> 
> 
> 
> My opinion on this topic is very simple:
> 
> 1. Why would anyone want to ruin the natural beauty of a tortoise or turtle of any kind by painting it? Simply irrational.
> 
> Halloween Is the time for costumes. Is it wrong to put dogs in costume? Does that cause them harm?
> 
> 2. How about if a giant creature put paint, or even worse, fingernail polish, on top of your head, face, arms, etc. and let's see how well you can breathe until it dries. Heck, maybe you'll even get dizzy and pass out. This is the "duh, don't do it" factor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why do you "own" your animals? Are you planning to release them back to th wild? Or are you the "giant" that Wants to enjoy possessing such a rewarding "pet?"
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## jaizei

sibi said:


> Hello guys...*this debate didn't begin about PAINTING your torts with NON-TOXIC NAIL POLISH. If it can be proven that nail polish is truly non-toxic, then this debate would be moot.* It was a question of whether or not "nail polish" is safe to use. The discussion had mainly been my assertions that nail polish is toxic because it has one or more toxic ingredients that can cause harm to torts as well as people. So, if you can definitely say that the paint/nail polish is truly non-toxic, then you can do anything you want to your tort. In fact, even if you find paint to be toxic, it's still your prerogative to do as you please. That's not in dispute. Having said that, I believe you would do what's right toward the animal in your care.



Doesn't this contradict what you stated the OP? 



sibi said:


> There some questions as to whether it's safe and acceptable to use nail polish or paint to decorate your tortoise or animal.* I submit that it's neither safe nor acceptable to use paint of any kind, regardless of whether or not the paint//polish has lead or other poisonous chemicals.*


----------



## sibi

No it doesn't IF you understand what I'm saying. I'm saying it's not acceptable to paint your tort with nail polish regardless of whether one believes the polish to be "safe" BECAUSE I believe there is no nail polish that doesn't have at least one of the many toxic ingredients. And because it isn't safe, it's not acceptable, in my opinion. That doesn't mean they CAN'T do whatever they want to their torts. Do you see now?


----------



## Baoh

sibi said:


> I understand perfectly the point of OSHA. I UNDERSTAND BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT AN AUTHORITY ON OSHA. YOU ARE NOT AN AUTHORITY ON THE TESTS THEY'VE CONDUCTED TO ARRIVE AT THEIR CONCLUSIONS. YOU ARE NOT A CHEMIST.
> If any study, report, opinion, law, findings or analysis don't agree with what YOU THINK YOU KNOW about the toxicities in paint, lacquers, polish, or acetone, you ridicule, poke fun at, undermine, intimidate, or otherwise dismiss any claims as irrational, amusing, fascinating, or sad (your words, not mine). It makes me wonder if you have stocks in nail polish, or are you just s*****! Look, most members here have common sense. If common sense have many breeders, experts in their respective fields of study, including veterinary medicine say they would NOT paint their animals carapace and/or growth lines, wouldn't you think that there just might be a good reason for it? Common sense also dictates that anyone (YOU) who would use acetone on their torts is not credible and is no expert in the field. You keep doing what you want to do, but we have no reason to believe you or trust YOUR opinion!



You have a fundamental misunderstanding right there.

I _am_ a chemist. Also, a biologist. Also, a biotherapeutics development scientist. By on-the-job training and/or higher education, all. I started in analytical chemistry in 2005. I started in regulatory toxicology in 2007. I am paid for this knowledge and know-how and I have had the good and bad opportunities to wear many hats.

I use the information generated to formulate a conclusion. I leave generation of a hard conclusion before being informed to others or I restrict myself to the realm of what a hypothesis is.

Are _you_ a chemist?

Common sense was derived from "commoner's sense" like common knowledge from "commoner's knowledge". These are said to have been coined when most people could neither read nor write. It is not the most flattering shawl to put around one's shoulders for comfort.

It was a matter of knowledge exposure and then understanding. One typically requires the former coke to forge the latter in the fires of one's intellect.

Your understanding of chemistry thus far is exactly what you claim it is, but not what you believe that to mean.


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## sibi

Okay, you say you are a chemist. Well, then you have either been exposed to some of those toxic fumes to such a degree that you cannot tell the difference when one makes a blanket statement such as "common sense," and how it's used today, and how it was originally used. Get off your high horse and provide FACTS that nail polish doesn't contain toxic, thus harmful ingredients as you claim, Mr Chemist.


Baoh said:


> sibi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand perfectly the point of OSHA. I UNDERSTAND BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT AN AUTHORITY ON OSHA. YOU ARE NOT AN AUTHORITY ON THE TESTS THEY'VE CONDUCTED TO ARRIVE AT THEIR CONCLUSIONS. YOU ARE NOT A CHEMIST.
> If any study, report, opinion, law, findings or analysis don't agree with what YOU THINK YOU KNOW about the toxicities in paint, lacquers, polish, or acetone, you ridicule, poke fun at, undermine, intimidate, or otherwise dismiss any claims as irrational, amusing, fascinating, or sad (your words, not mine). It makes me wonder if you have stocks in nail polish, or are you just s*****! Look, most members here have common sense. If common sense have many breeders, experts in their respective fields of study, including veterinary medicine say they would NOT paint their animals carapace and/or growth lines, wouldn't you think that there just might be a good reason for it? Common sense also dictates that anyone (YOU) who would use acetone on their torts is not credible and is no expert in the field. You keep doing what you want to do, but we have no reason to believe you or trust YOUR opinion!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have a fundamental misunderstanding right there.
> 
> I _am_ a chemist. Also, a biologist. Also, a biotherapeutics development scientist. By on-the-job training and/or higher education, all. I started in analytical chemistry in 2005. I started in regulatory toxicology in 2007. I am paid for this knowledge and know-how and I have had the good and bad opportunities to wear many hats.
> 
> I use the information generated to formulate a conclusion. I leave generation of a hard conclusion before being informed to others or I restrict myself to the realm of what a hypothesis is.
> 
> Are _you_ a chemist?
> 
> Common sense was derived from "commoner's sense" like common knowledge from "commoner's knowledge". These are said to have been coined when most people could neither read nor write. It is not the most flattering shawl to put around one's shoulders for comfort.
> 
> It was a matter of knowledge exposure and then understanding. One typically requires the former coke to forge the latter in the fires of one's intellect.
> 
> Your understanding of chemistry thus far is exactly what you claim it is, but not what you believe that to mean.
Click to expand...


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## Baoh

sibi said:


> Okay, you say you are a chemist. Well, then you have either been exposed to some of those toxic fumes to such a degree that you cannot tell the difference when one makes a blanket statement such as "common sense," and how it's used today, and how it was originally used. Get off your high horse and provide FACTS that nail polish doesn't contain toxic, thus harmful ingredients as you claim, Mr Chemist.
> 
> 
> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sibi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand perfectly the point of OSHA. I UNDERSTAND BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT AN AUTHORITY ON OSHA. YOU ARE NOT AN AUTHORITY ON THE TESTS THEY'VE CONDUCTED TO ARRIVE AT THEIR CONCLUSIONS. YOU ARE NOT A CHEMIST.
> If any study, report, opinion, law, findings or analysis don't agree with what YOU THINK YOU KNOW about the toxicities in paint, lacquers, polish, or acetone, you ridicule, poke fun at, undermine, intimidate, or otherwise dismiss any claims as irrational, amusing, fascinating, or sad (your words, not mine). It makes me wonder if you have stocks in nail polish, or are you just s*****! Look, most members here have common sense. If common sense have many breeders, experts in their respective fields of study, including veterinary medicine say they would NOT paint their animals carapace and/or growth lines, wouldn't you think that there just might be a good reason for it? Common sense also dictates that anyone (YOU) who would use acetone on their torts is not credible and is no expert in the field. You keep doing what you want to do, but we have no reason to believe you or trust YOUR opinion!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have a fundamental misunderstanding right there.
> 
> I _am_ a chemist. Also, a biologist. Also, a biotherapeutics development scientist. By on-the-job training and/or higher education, all. I started in analytical chemistry in 2005. I started in regulatory toxicology in 2007. I am paid for this knowledge and know-how and I have had the good and bad opportunities to wear many hats.
> 
> I use the information generated to formulate a conclusion. I leave generation of a hard conclusion before being informed to others or I restrict myself to the realm of what a hypothesis is.
> 
> Are _you_ a chemist?
> 
> Common sense was derived from "commoner's sense" like common knowledge from "commoner's knowledge". These are said to have been coined when most people could neither read nor write. It is not the most flattering shawl to put around one's shoulders for comfort.
> 
> It was a matter of knowledge exposure and then understanding. One typically requires the former coke to forge the latter in the fires of one's intellect.
> 
> Your understanding of chemistry thus far is exactly what you claim it is, but not what you believe that to mean.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Your understanding of logic is incomplete.

One does not prove a negative. One only establishes a reasonable degree of safety and handling capability for its use case. As I have already explained, toxicity is determined by dose.

Your _ad hominem_ went for sophistry with the word "either", but then you did not follow up with a second option to try to assert I was stuck between that and the first (neither of which would have been likely to be correct). Imagine my disappointment at the fragmentation of the attempt at a personal attack.

Are you a chemist? Do you understand chemistry?


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## jaizei

I think we're straying off topic. Any further posts concerning the other person instead of focusing on the topic will be deleted.




Closed by request


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