# Please don't support pet stores that sell wild-caught torts!



## laramill (Mar 16, 2014)

I know this could be up for debate, but I'm really hoping people will stop buying wild-caught tortoises-- These aren't pets, they're wild animals, and therefore, when in captivity, they are like prisoners no matter how great your care of them is. 

If we would stop purchasing them from the PetSmarts and PetCos, etc, they would find buying them unprofitable and would stop creating a demand for them to be collected from the wild. 

Wild populations have been depleted of other species-- and as people notice this, those species become better regulated, and so the pet trade moves on to a new species-- Right now it's the Russian (that is, when they can even tell what they are pulling from the wild, which, if you read this forum, seems to be often wrong.)

We saw this happen years ago with parrots as well-- and finally birds stopped being imported-- But how many died before this? And how many wild-caught birds lived out their lives as prisoners first??

Anyone who has ever dealt with a feral cat knows there is a difference between a kitten that has been raised in a loving home with humans, and one that has been raised wild-- and you usually cannot make that feral kitten become the same good pet that a human-raised one is.

Beside this-- Pet stores give out poor information on pet care-- suggesting and selling customers things that are dead wrong for the best care of many animals they sell. Why support this practice?

For example-- Look at the photos below. This was a female Russian in a PetCo store in Plover Wisconsin. She was kept with little substrate in a very dry tank with THREE MALES. (correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it best, if these must be housed together at all, to keep at least 3 females with one male and with a ton of visual blocks as well as hiding places?) I took these photos because her back claws were so long she could not put her feet on the floor, so they are focused on her back feet.





(One of the photos was one of the 3 males, trying to huddle in the corner behind a water dish with the other 2)

(to be fair-- I first spoke with store personal (who did not seem receptive, though they were polite, but said they were following "PetCo pet care policy") and I then posted them on Twitter with a PetCo hashtag and promptly received a call from a district manager. She assured me that the tort had been taken to a vet and they had their claws trimmed and were also changing her diet because she was overweight. Since this is over an hour from my house, I unfortunately haven't had time to go back and check on the situation. However, this was a huge, beautiful tortoise and it killed me that it was being so poorly treated and neglected!)

I'm also including photos of a tortoise I saw at the Wausau Wisconsin PetCo. While he didn't seem in too bad of shape, he had no substrate and you can tell from their own humidity dial-- ZERO, ZILCH, NADA for moisture. I also tweeted these photos with the petco hashtag and a "please give him some substrate" message and got no response. I will try to get back there this week to see if there is any difference.




Our closest PetSmart hasn't had Russians in over a year, and I hope they don't get any!!

I implore anyone that is at a pet store and sees this type of thing to TWEET IT WITH A HASHTAG of the store name. Be polite and just request proper care. If anyone contacts you, please ask them not to sell wild-caught animals and remedy the care issues of the ones they already have stolen from the wild. (I asked the district manager of PetCo about this, and she said that they could not get the "numbers they need" of tortoises from breeders. Think of that-- how many are they collecting then???)

If you really care about tortoises and their long-term survival in this world-- DO NOT BUY FROM PET STORES or any source that sells wild-caught tortoises! Either find one that needs a new home, or find a good breeder on line, and let the pet stores know why you don't buy from them. PLEASE. Don't support what they are doing by rewarding them with your dollars.

When I took in Wilson last Sept., I made a promise to him as well as myself that this is something I wouldn't let go... I hope you'll make your torts the same promise!


----------



## Jacqui (Mar 16, 2014)

I am sorry Lara, but I have to disgree with you and I do suggest to folks to buy from their local petstores and wild caught animals. While if folks stopped buying them, the stores *might* not buy them, I can not take a "maybe" or "perhaps" and ignore the animal THAT IS THERE. Why should that for real animal suffer for a maybe animal? Is that animal any less worthy of a chance for a good rest of his or her life? Should THAT REAL animals' genes be tossed aside as trash? Perhaps you can turn a blind eye to the needs and suffering of the animal before you for some maybe tortoise, I can't. The tortoise in hand has more value to me.

So let's say we don't buy those wild animals and they never get caught for the pet trade, what future do they have? Well we know wild animals face a lot of dangers like predators (other then humans), modern human threats of traffic, farmers plowing the field, lack of water (either natural or manmade), just lack of the natural habitats they need to live. Then we have the humans who may be survivng on the money from selling those tortoises they caught. If they can't sell them as pets, what are their options? Sell them for medicines? Sell them to others to eat? You know those tortoises you see string up by a leg or heads chopped off while still alive. Pleasant thought, huh? Or maybe just eat them themselves. Sounds to me like if left to be "wild" not pets, they may have a very short life span. It would be nice if life in the wild could be safe, if tortoises could survive long enough to breed, if those eggs could survive to hatching, if those hatchlings could make it to adulthood, but life is not so nice and neat. Life in the wild while always a hard, danger filled one has gotten harder and chances of survivial even slimmer... even without the pet trade.

Put into the pet trade yes will mean many will die in transit or in bad homes. Some will live and produce (I know I have many in that slot). Better yet, they may spark the interest in some to not only keep tortoises, but change the world for them. Who knows what great leaps those new keepers may create.

I do have feral cats and some do make great pets. A lot depends on who works with them. My son could tame a feral so that you could never tell one was once wild. Cats are not tortoises however. I like my tortoises to remember they are wild animals I try to care for, not domesticated pets. To each their own on that subject.

Pet stores are not full time permanent homes, they are temporary ones. Plus not ALL pet sores care about their animals the same way. Labeling them all in such a manner would be like labeling all the folks who have tortoises as abusive. Just notice in one week how many folks come in here who don't know what kind of tortoise they have kept for five years is, who are keeping them in dry 10 gallon tanks with no UVB lights and fed only iceburg lettuce. Does this make ALL tortoise keepers abusive? We tell folks not to fed iceburg lettuce and tomatoes, but I know atleast one zoo who does that all the time. Should we also label all zoos as abusive? Plus add to it these homes and zoos are full time and permanent homes for these tortoises, not temporary like the pet stores.

I am glad you have a zeal and a passion for this. It's just not one I share. I think survival means these tortoises must leave their wild homes, become captives with the hope that some day the world will be a better place and we can release back into the wild tortoises that came from these (as you call them) stolen animals. 

.. just my quick thoughts


----------



## Tom (Mar 16, 2014)

There is NOTHING wrong with removing a limited number of a species from the wild. None of us would have our pets at all if you had your way. We should not be damaging wild populations and taking too many, but bringing some in and breeding them is how we get the Captive Bred animals to in the first place. You cannot have have CB without WC coming first. It is my opinion that ANYONE who keeps any animal captive in their home or yard and then rails against the "horrors" of removing those poor little babies from their idyllic wild home, is both naive and a total hypocrite. Thinking with ones emotions seems to be all the rage these days, but it is not a good trend.

As far as housing, we have been over this many times before here on this forum. NO ONE thinks those little tanks and crowded conditions are good. But that is supposed to be a practical, TEMPORARY housing situation until they get bought and taken home to a proper living situation.

Here is what people like you don't understand. When you make this sort of emotional rant, people listen. Now 100 other people could come along and say the opposite in a sensible rational way, but for some reason they are ignored and the sensationalist point of view (yours) is the one that is addressed. You are empowering our enemies and driving the politicians to "do SOMETHING" about this horrible "problem" you speak of. The end result is, and will continue to be, ever increasing legislation and more and more big government intrusion into our daily lives.

The influx of fresh new bloodlines is a necessary and helpful part of our hobby. Yes, common sense needs to be applied, but the blanket statement that no WC should ever be bought and the stores that offer them for sale should be driven out of business is both extreme and absurd.

If you don't want people removing them from the wild to meet the demand for captive pets, it is time for you to DO something about it. Put your money where your mouth is. One could argue that keeping a single animal all alone, like you with Wilson, is selfish and its a "dead end". If Wilson is a male, then go get your two or three females, get that giant enclosure with the sight barriers built, and get busy trying to contribute to the solution rather than complain about your emotional mis-perception of the situation. Start captive breeding and producing some babies for the pet trade. Every baby you produce is one less that will need to be removed from the wild. If that sort of project is too much, then find a single female locally, and make plans to introduce them for breeding. Or just get your own single female, like the one in your pics, house her separately most of the time, but periodically introduce them for breeding. Lets make it so that only large scale breeders need the occasional new WC animals, and people like you and me (I have 20 CB russians that I bought for the sole purpose of breeding and solving the very problem we are discussing) can reduce or eliminate the demand for wild caught animals by offering a better alternative.

It is completely asinine in my opinion to try to financially ruin a business that employs tens of thousand of people, complain about a "problem" that really isn't a problem, be a contributor to the perceived problem, and be doing nothing to actually solve the perceived problem.


----------



## laramill (Mar 16, 2014)

I think you misunderstand me. 

I also fought to end unregulated puppy mills in Wisconsin, and in Wisconsin, we saw our big chain pet stores stop selling puppies (and kittens) and start helping pet shelters adopt out their animals. Responsible breeders are still in business and the legislation usually didn't affect them at all because they were already well within the guidelines (which were bare minimums) to be in compliance.

I have absolutely no problem with tortoise breeders-- I have no problem with them having wild caught animals. I have seen some of the dedicated breeders and their facilities and they are amazing care takers and should be commended and supported in their trade, dedication, and efforts. I have no problem with these breeders shipping their tortoises, because they take painstaking care in how they are doing it.

What I have a problem with is massive amounts of wild caught tortoises being shoved in boxes, many showing the exact same signs of shell rot (right down to the area on the shell it shows up on) due to the poor conditions they are shipped in, then being placed in small tanks with inadequate basic needs being met, and then sold to what are really somewhat innocent consumers who take the stores "advice" on the torts care needs, buy a ten gallon tank and keep the tort in there for years not even understanding the damage they are doing because the respected store staff told them this was good enough.

The reason we can't collect many of our own turtles (in u.s.) is because their numbers have been so depleted they are threatened or endangered. I'd like to prevent other torts and turtles around the world from facing this same future.

I would like the people that know how to care for the wild caught torts and are invested enough in their good care to be able to go all-out in their care to be the ones responsible for them. Because they also provide the best advice on their care, as well, and give this advice to people who purchase their captive-bred tortoises. These breeders want these tortoises to succeed after the sale. 

I do not like the idea of wild caught tortoises being used to supply the mass general public who are then not supplied with any real guidelines of their care by their sellers, and I do think that a pet store that doesn't provide basic care should be called out on it. I didn't ask the stores to provide huge enclosures-- I asked them to provide a couple inches of substrate and a few drops of moisture in the air. That is basic care.

As for turning my back on an individual tort in need- No, I don't do that-- That is why I have Wilson. 

At the same time, I'm not willing to buy a tort from a pet store so it can be replaced by another who will face the same situation as the one I purchased. It is an endless chain of neglect and trying to save them. It only rewards the pet store for continuing it's practices and fills their pockets at the expense of the well being of tortoises.

I would rather reward a decent breeder for his good practices than a pet store for their poor ones. I have no problem with a store selling supplies, though I do wish they would provide better information to their customers. I have no problem with them getting referral fees for breeders. I have a problem with them importing huge numbers of tortoises from the wild, because, unlike some, I believe wild animals deserve to be wild. I would no more try to bring a wolf into my house to live than I would send my dog out to live in the woods.

And if you research the history of the pet trade and wild-caught animals, you will see this is indeed a problem. 

I would love to care for more tortoises, but I also know I live in Wisconsin, and this is a hard place to provide adequate care for more than the one I have considering my indoor and outdoor space and the climate. So, realizing this limitation, I won't take on more than I can properly care for.


I should also add-- Wilson wasn't bought by me from a pet store-- I got him from a girl about 45 minutes away whose mother said did not care for him. He was in sad shape, but I paid her what she wanted for him because I could not leave him with her. I am not sure where she got him. She sort of said a reptile show, but was vague. I was not looking for a tortoise at the time I got him, but was encouraged by a friend to look into his situation because, I guess, she knew I took in other hard-to-place animals and have nursed a variety of other animals (wild) back to health so they could be re-released. 

(But, please don't send me anymore, my plate is full)


----------



## Yvonne G (Mar 16, 2014)

Turtles and tortoises have not undergone years and years of human intervention to become domesticated, thus ALL turtles and tortoises are wild animals, not just the wild-caught ones.

The countries of origin USUALLY will put limits on export of animals that are being depleted from the wild. 

I don't think pet stores are the problem. The illegal trade is the problem.


----------



## laramill (Mar 16, 2014)

http://www.tortoisereserve.org/researchandconservation/Bred_Torts_Body2.html

For anyone who would like to look into it further, this is a very good, researched and cited article on the topic.


----------



## Tom (Mar 16, 2014)

laramill said:


> I think you misunderstand me.



No. I think I understand you perfectly. I'm saying that I don't agree with you that Petco and Petsmart should be boycotted for selling a few WC tortoises.



laramill said:


> I also fought to end unregulated puppy mills in Wisconsin, and in Wisconsin, we saw our big chain pet stores stop selling puppies (and kittens) and start helping pet shelters adopt out their animals. Responsible breeders are still in business and the legislation usually didn't affect them at all because they were already well within the guidelines (which were bare minimums) to be in compliance.



THIS is a whole 'nother can o' worms, that I am neither interested or inclined to get into. I don't care for these mass misleading labels like "puppy-mill". Every facility is different and these animal rights media supported labels are often unjust and undeserved. Every facility is different. In all cases I abhor and condemn ANY sort of animal abuse or neglect, but to label every dog breeding facility a "puppy mill" is not fair or just. SOME of them take excellent care of their animals and do a fine job, despite what the mass media and animal-rightist groups want you to think.




laramill said:


> What I have a problem with is massive amounts of wild caught tortoises being shoved in boxes, many showing the exact same signs of shell rot (right down to the area on the shell it shows up on) due to the poor conditions they are shipped in, then being placed in small tanks with inadequate basic needs being met, and then sold to what are really somewhat innocent consumers who take the stores "advice" on the torts care needs, buy a ten gallon tank and keep the tort in there for years not even understanding the damage they are doing because the respected store staff told them this was good enough.



I didn't like that either when it used to happen. Its not done that way anymore. The article you linked lists statistics from almost 20 years ago. While I did see some horrid things in the 90's, those days are over for a wide variety of reasons. Any WC tortoises shipped nowadays, are highly regulated and very closely watched. There are reams of paper work to do and fees to be paid. While some of the things that happened 20 or more years ago could certainly have been done better, it is not done that way any more.

As far as ignorant people buying animals from ignorant sellers, well that IS a problem and I suspect always will be. However, I don't see how WC or CB has any bearing on that. There has never been a WC sulcata or leopard hatchling in this country (they never came in under 4" that I am aware of), but to this day pet stores are still selling them with sand substrate, no water bowls, in 10 gallon tanks with coil bulbs. Ignorance is ignorance. Boycotting chain pet stores for selling some WC tortoises will not change that.

Perhaps another thread should be started about combating animal care ignorance. This has been a personal crusade of mine for decades and I'd be glad to help you with the goal of combating ignorance.




laramill said:


> The reason we can't collect many of our own turtles (in u.s.) is because their numbers have been so depleted they are threatened or endangered. I'd like to prevent other torts and turtles around the world from facing this same future.



This is debatable. There are many things that contributed and are contributing the the problems within our country. It is a complex problem and its a complex, but often different problem, in other parts of the world. I do share your goal of preventing species depletion from the wild anywhere in the world. The problem is that its a complex problem and every situation is different. The article you cited even acknowledges the potential benefit of some WC exportation.





laramill said:


> I would like the people that know how to care for the wild caught torts and are invested enough in their good care to be able to go all-out in their care to be the ones responsible for them. Because they also provide the best advice on their care, as well, and give this advice to people who purchase their captive-bred tortoises. These breeders want these tortoises to succeed after the sale.
> 
> I do not like the idea of wild caught tortoises being used to supply the mass general public who are then not supplied with any real guidelines of their care by their sellers, and I do think that a pet store that doesn't provide basic care should be called out on it. I didn't ask the stores to provide huge enclosures-- I asked them to provide a couple inches of substrate and a few drops of moisture in the air. That is basic care.



I agree with you on both paragraphs above, but I would counter that the words "wild caught" should be deleted from the first sentence of the second quoted paragraph above. I don't want the public supplied with ANY tortoise from ANY source without proper guild lines and care instructions. Again, not a WC/CB issue. It is a husbandry issue. It is an ignorance issue. Being WC vs. CB does not make it somehow worse in my mind. And I am all for "calling out" ANY facility that offers substandard care. Many of our members here on TFO have done just that and in MANY cases conditions for these tortoises have improved. The conditions for the tortoises here in my local Petcos and Petsmarts are certainly not perfect, but good enough for a few weeks until they go to a proper home. They do have water, decent substrate, and adequate food. I think you should direct more of your efforts at those individual stores, and less on calling for a complete boycott of a huge chain of stores, some of which do an adequate job.




laramill said:


> At the same time, I'm not willing to buy a tort from a pet store so it can be replaced by another who will face the same situation as the one I purchased. It is an endless chain of neglect and trying to save them. It only rewards the pet store for continuing it's practices and fills their pockets at the expense of the well being of tortoises.
> 
> I would rather reward a decent breeder for his good practices than a pet store for their poor ones. I have no problem with a store selling supplies, though I do wish they would provide better information to their customers. I have no problem with them getting referral fees for breeders.



I agree with you in all of this too. I don't share Jacqui's point of view on this issue.





laramill said:


> I have a problem with them importing huge numbers of tortoises from the wild, because, unlike some, I believe wild animals deserve to be wild. I would no more try to bring a wolf into my house to live than I would send my dog out to live in the woods.



You contradict yourself here. You just said you have no problem with responsible breeders who do a good job having WC tortoises. You have a WC animal and I'm sure you enjoy his company. This is the hypocrisy I spoke of earlier. If you are against WC animals, you should be trying to get Wilson home, back to the wild, where you think he belongs.

Further, some dogs do fine in the wild. Ever heard of a dingo? Further, do you think it would be okay to bring a CB wolf into your home? If not then why a CB tortoise? You say your are not okay with "huge" numbers of tortoises being imported from the wild. Does this mean reasonable numbers are okay? If wild animals deserve to be wild, why is it okay for some quantity to be housed and cared for by responsible breeders?

I think you need to suss out EXACTLY what you are okay with and what you are not okay with before we can have a meaningful conversation about solving problems with any captive animals either WC or CB.




laramill said:


> And if you research the history of the pet trade and wild-caught animals, you will see this is indeed a problem.



No need for me to research it. I was part of it. Like anything else reported on by the media, thousands of properly packed well cared for shipments went through and continue to go through without any issues. There is no headline there. Nothing "sensational". I am very sad to admit that there were some failures on the part of exporters and some unscrupulous importers that are a blight on an otherwise caring group of people who are as passionate about these amazing animals as any of us are, and probably more so. I've seen the awful pictures too, but I've also seen thousands of animals shipped CORRECTLY and without a problem. Have YOU seen those?





laramill said:


> I would love to care for more tortoises, but I also know I live in Wisconsin, and this is a hard place to provide adequate care for more than the one I have considering my indoor and outdoor space and the climate. So, realizing this limitation, I won't take on more than I can properly care for.
> 
> I should also add-- Wilson wasn't bought by me from a pet store-- I got him from a girl about 45 minutes away whose mother said did not care for him. He was in sad shape, but I paid her what she wanted for him because I could not leave him with her. I am not sure where she got him. She sort of said a reptile show, but was vague. I was not looking for a tortoise at the time I got him, but was encouraged by a friend to look into his situation because, I guess, she knew I took in other hard-to-place animals and have nursed a variety of other animals (wild) back to health so they could be re-released.




If you can care for one, you can care for two. If you are going to call for mass boycotts of companies, then it is absolutely revolting to me that you will continue to enjoy the benefit of a WC animal for your own entertainment while pointing a finger at others for trying to do the same thing as you, while you choose to NOT contribute to any sort of real solution. If you can't find a way to contribute to the solution because of space, time, climate or money constraints, then perhaps you should seek out one of those responsible breeders you spoke of earlier and give them your WC tortoise for breeding so that he can contribute to reducing the need for more WC tortoises. You can't have it both ways. I'm glad Wilson found a better home with you, but you STILL paid money and contributed to the "problem" that you decry. I understand you had your reasons, and I don't disagree with you or them, but money still changed hands, and the importers and exporters of Wilson, and all the middle men, still got paid, and you are still enjoying the fruits of their labor. To be clear, I don't have a problem with this, but you are saying with the original post in this thread that you do.

Please understand that I think its great that you rescued Wilson from a bad situation. I think its great that you like him and care for him well. I think its great that you enjoy having him. I don't think its great that you wish to punish the people who brought him to you, because of 20+ year old animal rightist propaganda. I don't think its great that thousands of people would suffer if people followed your request for a boycott, when the vast majority of them have done nothing wrong. Its sad that YOUR local pet store is keeping them incorrectly, but MY local pet stores are doing just fine. I don't want the people at MY local Petco to lose their jobs because of ignorance and apathy at YOUR Petco across the country.

I ask that you work on fixing the problems in your own area, and your own home, and not paint the whole pet industry with one big broad brush.


----------



## laramill (Mar 16, 2014)

I think you DO misunderstand me.

I never said to boycott entire pet store chains because of their wild caught tortoises-- I said not to buy their tortoises and instead get them from reputable breeders. 

I shop at PetSmart all the time (and PetCo less often)-- not for tortoises, but for dog food, cat food, litter, coir, etc. I have no problem buying my pet supplies from them.

I am also part of consumer research groups for both chains for product and company development-- and I say it whenever I can "Please stop importing wild caught tortoises."

The difference between my getting Wilson from someone who was no longer caring for him and getting him from a pet store is HUGE. 

Frankly, I (and a friend of mine) thought if this girl didn't get rid of the tortoise soon (she wanted to use the tank for something else), she was going to stick it in the woods. He already stunk like rotting flesh... how long do you think he'd make it in the northern Wisconsin woods, where our temperatures got down to 25+ below zero this winter?

If I had ever been shopping for tortoises, I would've gotten it from either someone who could no longer keep their tortoise, or a breeder. Not a pet store. I do not want to support importing more tortoises.

Also, if I can keep 1 tortoise, I can NOT keep 2. I do not have a room for a second enclosure, and male Russians-- at least from every bit of research I've done-- don't always live well together. This is also why I don't to get a female and have them mate-- because it would multiply the problem of space. Beside this, I live on a small city lot, I have room for one and only one enclosure, unless you would like them to share the rest of the yard with my dogs, which we both know is not a brilliant idea. I can't imagine why you are berating me for not breeding tortoises, but still having an opinion about them being collected from the wild. 

I already work 2 jobs, I do not need a third. I will let people who have time, space, and the inclination do this. I trust them to, quite frankly, so I don't need to do it myself. I'm trying to get people to support them as well, instead of supporting depleting natural populations.

I am also trying to get people to take notice when they are in pet stores so that if there is a tortoise living is sub-par conditions even for their hopefully short stay at the pet store (as I think the pictures I posted show), they will try to talk to store staff about it, and if they are met with the polite indifference I was both times, I hope they will go to the public about it. 

That is how I help those tortoises-- I don't buy them because I know I can't properly care for more and I know they will just be replaced by additional torts subjected to the same conditions-- I instead try to change those conditions and change a situation that encourages more torts being brought in from the wild.


----------



## ascott (Mar 16, 2014)

No wild animal should be removed from the wild...this is my belief. None. Humans have a way of feeling entitled, owed--some crazy right to go in and disrupt an entire system of life simply because..."ooo, those are pretty, I want one"....

I believe that every turtle and every tortoise should have been left in the wild, left to live and die, in their natural place---but this is excused because people move in, rape and pillage too many spaces and then say "thank goodness people stepped in to help the "whatever animal here" survive" a terrible selfish way to think....just because humans can, does not mean we should.

I have said it before and I will say it likely again (not really with care to who agrees with me or not) I would love to have each and every CDT here in my care to have been left alone, to have been left where they were stolen from, to let life live as designed, not to be misunderstood---I love this species (and many others) and while I am blessed with their presence, it is not a humans right to steal a wild animal from their wild land...period.

Yes, some tort and turtle will end up food (hell, so will alot of other animals, cows, pigs, turkey etc) and then there are those that would not....you see, we humans have decided what goes---again our ego leads us to believe we know better, we have a right .....sickening some days actually.....

You go on with your beliefs and don't be curved by others opinions of theirs.....research and study and run with what you believe, it is not silly, it is not futile, it is not shared by a few---it is just not the popular theory, you see, if it were then people would have to come to grips with the fact that their own wants and desires should some how overpower what is right....


----------



## laramill (Mar 16, 2014)

Angela-- You made my day. Thank you.


----------



## ascott (Mar 16, 2014)

I should explain, I am a "tree hugger" from way back....I understand that when the last natural tree is cut down, the last native fish is hunted and killed, the last of any living source is killed/taken/destroyed---it can never be replaced....ever....not even by us "fancy" humans.


----------



## laramill (Mar 16, 2014)

Yes... just like Truffula trees.


----------



## Skymall007 (Mar 16, 2014)

I see both sides of the issue. I think ideally only CB animals should be sold to the public and WC animals only sold to certified breeders who need to bring in new blood lines. I don't want to get caught in the crossfire but there seem to be misunderstandings on both sides. I didn't read the OP as trying to boycott these pet stores but rather to not spend money on certain parts of what they sell to show there is no desire for that item. I am doing a similar thing with iguanas. I always discourage people to buy iguanas from anywhere but specialized reptile stores because petco and petsmart have no business selling them (especially at the prices they do). I encourage them to sell water dragons instead but that is an entirely different topic. I am into animal welfare (not animals rights). I will also soon be finishing up my Biology degree, what I have learned from that is that humans do often disturb wild populations and we don't have enough guidelines for how many animals are taken from the wild. I think there might be a middle ground here.


Captain Picard once said "there is no justice is absolutism." This is true. Wilson may be WC and that may be against Laramill's belief system but Wilson is now in good hands and used to captivity. Placing him back into the wild would not be best either because you never put captive animals back for a number of reasons. It is not always wrong to take WC torts from the wild but often it is. It's not just one side or the other. Usually there is a middle ground. I don't believe in taking large wild cats out of the wild for zoos (I am against keeping apex predators). However, there are circumstances where exceptions must be made. For example, perhaps they have dwindling numbers in the wild and a captive breeding program is necessary. Perhaps their habitat is gone and we will lose this animal. Perhaps research needs to be done. So you see, no absolutism.


----------



## laramill (Mar 16, 2014)

skymall007--
Thank you. I feel like you DID get what I was trying to say. (I also have a biology degree, maybe that's why?)

If I wasn't stating it correctly, I believe you did.

(and I'm sorry to hear the iguana situation isn't good either. I don't think I will ever be in the market for one, but will keep it in mind...)


----------



## Skymall007 (Mar 16, 2014)

laramill said:


> skymall007--
> Thank you. I feel like you DID get what I was trying to say. (I also have a biology degree, maybe that's why?)
> 
> If I wasn't stating it correctly, I believe you did.
> ...



It is always good to meet a fellow Biology person =) It might be our way of communicating.


----------



## Tom (Mar 16, 2014)

laramill said:


> The difference between my getting Wilson from someone who was no longer caring for him and getting him from a pet store is HUGE.
> 
> Frankly, I (and a friend of mine) thought if this girl didn't get rid of the tortoise soon (she wanted to use the tank for something else), she was going to stick it in the woods. He already stunk like rotting flesh... how long do you think he'd make it in the northern Wisconsin woods, where our temperatures got down to 25+ below zero this winter?



The difference is not huge in my opinion. You paid money to someone who paid money to someone else who paid money, etc... Track it back far enough, and YOU paid for the actual dude walking around out in the bushes who found and collected this tortoise. Likewise, the guy or gal who buys a CB tortoise is also indirectly financially rewarding the dude in the bush by paying the people who paid him for the original WC breeding stock. Again, in controlled sustainable numbers, I have no problem with this. This is OUR planet, OUR animals, and there is no reason we can't use these resources and space carefully and responsibly. When it is done irresponsibly and recklessly, I am right there with you standing against it.

I have no argument with you about how poor of an owner this other girl seemed to be, or what she might have done, but that changes nothing about this discussion. It gets 25 below zero in some parts of this tortoises range too. It might have dug in and been fine. I'm glad we didn't have to find out.




laramill said:


> If I had ever been shopping for tortoises, I would've gotten it from either someone who could no longer keep their tortoise, or a breeder. Not a pet store. I do not want to support importing more tortoises.



I'm with you for the first two sentences, but you don't seem to be able to make the connection that you ARE supporting importing more tortoises by NOT breeding yours and by giving money to those same breeders or people who can no longer keep their tortoise. Its all part of the same trade. You seem to fancy yourself as some sort of humanitarian tortoise rescuer. I see you as a regular money paying tortoise buyer and owner, and there is nothing wrong with that. I buy my tortoises CB from breeders, but I don't find my self completely removed and innocent from having anything to do with the WC pet trade. By buying those CB tortoise, I have contributed to the removal of tortoises from the wild and rewarded those who have previously done so. And so have you.




laramill said:


> Also, if I can keep 1 tortoise, I can NOT keep 2. I do not have a room for a second enclosure, and male Russians-- at least from every bit of research I've done-- don't always live well together. This is also why I don't to get a female and have them mate-- because it would multiply the problem of space. Beside this, I live on a small city lot, I have room for one and only one enclosure, unless you would like them to share the rest of the yard with my dogs, which we both know is not a brilliant idea. I can't imagine why you are berating me for not breeding tortoises, but still having an opinion about them being collected from the wild.
> 
> I already work 2 jobs, I do not need a third. I will let people who have time, space, and the inclination do this. I trust them to, quite frankly, so I don't need to do it myself. I'm trying to get people to support them as well, instead of supporting depleting natural populations.



Let me state it again. I have no problem with someone keeping a lone pet tortoise and loving life. I have a problem with someone owning a lone pet tortoise and railing against other people trying to get their own tortoise because of arbitrary hypocritical reasons. You say don't buy one, but YOU bought one. EVERYONE who has bought one can find some way to justify it. Like Jacqui who feels like she is rescuing that individual who is already here. I see her point, but I agree more with YOUR stance on that issue. 

I see two logical courses of action for someone who professes that animals should never be removed from the wild. 1. Don't keep and enjoy any, and do what you can to stop it. Or... 2. Get busy breeding to try and eliminate the demand for WC animals.

The breeders you are professing support for are the ones who are "depleting natural populations" to use your term. Where is the disconnect here? You don't want to remove them from the wild, but you want to directly support and pay the people who do, and help promote their businesses that are built directly on the backs of the WC animals...

I'm done trying to connect the dots for you. Neither of us want to see wild populations damaged. Both of us support captive breeding programs and buying CB babies over WC animals. Lets leave it at that.




laramill said:


> I am also trying to get people to take notice when they are in pet stores so that if there is a tortoise living is sub-par conditions even for their hopefully short stay at the pet store (as I think the pictures I posted show), they will try to talk to store staff about it, and if they are met with the polite indifference I was both times, I hope they will go to the public about it.
> 
> That is how I help those tortoises-- I don't buy them because I know I can't properly care for more and I know they will just be replaced by additional torts subjected to the same conditions-- I instead try to change those conditions and change a situation that encourages more torts being brought in from the wild.



I agree with you here too. I do the same, but not because I'm upset about the origin of the animal. I do it because I am genuinely concerned about the welfare of each individual animal.




laramill said:


> I think you DO misunderstand me.
> 
> I never said to boycott entire pet store chains because of their wild caught tortoises...




Sorry for taking this one out of order, but I saved the best for last. It is part of my closing argument.

We seem to be speaking two different languages here. You did not use the word "boycott", but that is EXACTLY what you asked people to do. YOUR THREAD TITLE SAYS, "Please don't support pet stores that sell wild-caught torts!" Then you go on and on about how you DO support them by buying things there, and you didn't mean it for all of them, but all of them sell WC torts!

I've spent a lot of my time typing up these responses to you, but given the above, I think any further efforts will only result in my frustration. This is still a somewhat free country, so you are entitled to think and say whatever you want. I think I've done enough to illuminate the fallacious nature of your feelings for anyone who cares to see it. We are all free to shop and spend our money wherever we want. I'm not a big fan of the chain stores anyway, but its not because they sell WC tortoises.




ascott said:


> No wild animal should be removed from the wild...this is my belief. None. Humans have a way of feeling entitled, owed--some crazy right to go in and disrupt an entire system of life simply because..."ooo, those are pretty, I want one"....
> 
> I believe that every turtle and every tortoise should have been left in the wild, left to live and die, in their natural place---but this is excused because people move in, rape and pillage too many spaces and then say "thank goodness people stepped in to help the "whatever animal here" survive" a terrible selfish way to think....just because humans can, does not mean we should.
> 
> ...



Oh Angela... You know I totally dig you, but for the sake of this debatable thread I have to argue these points with you.

I am alive and I am here. I, and my family, need a house to live in and food to eat. Some animals are going to be displaced, and some animals are going to be eaten. Actually, lots of animals are going to be eaten over the years. I'm going to kill pests ad predators that threaten me or my family, and I will also keep some of those animals alive and healthy for completely and totally selfish reasons, like my own entertainment. I will also make some of them serve me, like my dogs. Beasts of burden if you will.

This is not ego based. Its survival. The only way to not displace, inconvenience or kill any wild animals is if we all kill ourselves and remove ourselves from the food chain. I'm not going to be first in line for that. Are you?

I do think it is my right, OUR right, to exploit the natural world WITHIN REASON. I don't think we should be destroying it, or living "out of sync" with it, but I see nothing wrong with eating a deer here or a turkey there, or cutting down a bunch of trees to make a shelter for me and my wife and child, and claim a space as my own. What's wrong with that? Even the animals themselves do that. Why can't we do it? Don't we have at least as much right to live and survive as they do? 

Everything you own, everything you've ever known, your very survival for all this time has been dependent on these natural human instincts. We should not be raping, pillaging and destroying the natural world, but USING the natural world for our own survival and edification is actually part of nature, is it not?


----------



## Jacqui (Mar 16, 2014)

laramill said:


> I never said to boycott entire pet store chains because of their wild caught tortoises-- I said not to buy their tortoises and instead get them from reputable breeders.



For some types of tortoises the number of breeders (reputable or not) are simply not there.


Tom you made so very many wonderful comments, I can't find any to debate with you.


----------



## laramill (Mar 16, 2014)

Tom,
I do not understand how you can restate what you thought I meant, and when I tell you that it was misunderstood and not at all what I mean, you can say "No, what you're saying is not what you meant, I know what you meant."

I made no personal attacks on you, called you ignorant or sensationalist. I haven't gotten that courtesy. I also did not tell you how to live your life or how to take your stances, and I also did not tell you that you had no right to comment because you owned too few or too many animals or had them for the wrong the reasons.

We disagree, clearly, though I'm not sure you understand why. I will never convince you, you will never convince me.

That said, I still hope people WILL shop at pet stores in general-- But, I will still hope that customers will hold the stores responsible for the care they provide the animals they sell and the information they dispense to their customers about keeping those pets, and I will still encourage people to seek out good breeders rather than purchase wild caught animals.

My adopting dogs at a shelter also does not make me support puppy mill situations. No more than my not becoming a cop makes me support bank robbery. My taking in Wilson is not support of catching wild tortoises for the pet trade.

Period. That is what I meant. It's stated clearly. I'm done clarifying.

Thank you.


----------



## Jacqui (Mar 16, 2014)

I agree that pet stores, rescues, breeders, zoos, Vets, ect.., should ALL know basic care for their animals, but that just isn't always so. I think it is more important that the owners of these animals seek out the information for themselves and from many locations. To me, they are the ones in the end responsible for getting information and doing the right thing. Much like the car dealer should not be responsible for teaching me how to drive.


----------



## laramill (Mar 16, 2014)

Jacqui, I totally agree with you and wished people would thoroughly research pets they intend to take care of before they commit to doing it. But I think so many people look to the pet store employees as pet experts... and the sad fact is, many of the people at the pet store are receiving lower pay and it is a job (often a part-time job), and not a "career" for them. 

Usually at the stores, you can find a few people who are really seriously knowledgeable on lots of the animals and products they sell... but if you are someone who is not, by nature, a real researcher-- For example, like a parent buying their child a pet (Now, I did post on that "should a parent buy a teen a tortoise" (can't remember exactly what it was called, but it was something like that) post-- and I said "only if the parent is willing to be the ultimate care-taker"-- That's my opinion, but a lot of people don't feel that way, because they don't value the pet on the same scale that I do-- To them, it is a plaything, or maybe a tool to teach their child responsibility, etc)-- I've seen so many times when parents are standing in front of the tropical fish and asking the person working "Can you put this with that?" and "how many fish can I stick in this tank?"-- And since they are really new to it all, they put their trust in the pet store staff to guide them, and that is the bulk of their research.

My friend's daughter works at a pet store chain and has been there for about a year and never received any special training or information on pet-care-- She basically reads the care sheets and uses that information-- but a lot of information on that sheet isn't right or it's out of date.

Really, it depends on the employees own personal interests to supply the knowledge to customers. (At PetSmart, they actually asked a research group how they could improve their store staff-- And it was said by many in the group that they should be trained in a few areas so they could become real experts in those fields-- and then schedules should be so that there would be someone there who could answer questions in each area-- and that there should be special effort put into retaining good employees. This would all help. They are also planning on information kiosks or apps to use in the store. IF the information is good, this would be awesome... and actually may already be available in some stores, I'm not sure.)

But, if pet stores profess their caring of pets and pet-parents, and say "Where pets come first!" when they answer the phone, etc... I feel like we should be able to trust what they tell people about pet care. (When I shopped for Wilson -- a Russian-- the first time, the salesperson tried to sell me red foot food. I explained to her that he was a vegetarian, and she laughed and said "They are?"-- And so I am not misunderstood-- I don't think ALL pet store staff are not knowledgeable. I know the PetCo near me has several employees in their fish dept. that can give reliable advice on almost any fish-related topic. The dog trainers at our PetSmart are brilliant.)


Now that I think about it a little more-- I think with Tortoises (and this may be true for reptiles in general)-- even if you DO research a lot, it can still be confusing because there are a lot of conflicting opinions on a lot of points. It seems every site you look at, or even opinions from different people on the very same site, the information will conflict. I think I tend to look to rehab people for reliable information. But other people may choose to look to store employees. it just seems ethical to me that if they are going to sell me all my supplies (and some people pets), that the information they give be reliable. I think we should be able to expect that.


----------



## Jacqui (Mar 16, 2014)

My stores happen to have folks with lots of knowledge of tortoises and experience with them. I have a higher expectation from Vets, then I do a pet store person, yet even many Vets are clueless about tortoises. (notice I said some, there are some awesome tortoise Vets out there, including a few who visit here). Some humans just do not have value for animals or for some it is only certain animals that hold value. Even with good advise, a person will only retain so much of it and that's just the folks who do want to learn.

Tortoise folks tend to not be outgoing and public. For instance dog folks are always giving demonstrations every where. I think tortoise folks need to do more out reach programs for a lack of a better term and get information out there.

I also have to give kudos to these chains stores atleast in my personal experience for questioning my knowledge of a tortoise I was going to buy from them and what it's needs were. (this has happened to me in NE, UT and MO and across several years) Also a none chain store in Vegas. That is something I have never had a breeder yet do.


So how do you tell what is "reliable" or correct information? You can take the same type of tortoise and raise it completely different, yet both have good results. How I care for my tortoises here is not for instance how Tom cares for his. Where you live does create a factor.


----------



## laramill (Mar 16, 2014)

Yes-- where you live is a HUGE factor! I would love to live in Arizona or New Mexico or one of those lovely warm places... I find it really hard here. Our snow is still thigh-high and we're supposed to get more this week. (enough already-- really) I feel like I'll be better at it as time goes by, but it takes a lot of forethought, planning, and prep to be any good at this during the winter... and the summer is hot and humid... the plants get powdery mildew pretty regularly (from the humidity)... and so I keep wondering how I will fare there, too, in my care-taking.

I kind of chuckled when I read "Dog folks are always giving demonstrations everywhere" I know it's true though, but it sounded funny to me.

I would love to see "tortoise demonstrations" of some sort, but I can't think of how that would work... and just moving the largest ones around has to prove an obstacle... I guess it's not only the "tortoise people" that aren't outgoing and public, a lot of tortoises aren't, either! I mean, a dog tends to thrive on that applause and attention... But probably part of the problem is just that tortoises are kind of a private pet in some ways-- in that they are at your house and tend to stay there-- Where dogs you have to walk, so they are out and about and seeing folks... (Beside that, people just do not KNOW tortoises. When I mention to people that we took in a tortoise, they automatically get a vision of a sulcata, and then say "Wow! How much does it weigh?" and I say "ah... 'bout 14 ounces" and then I get a confused look.)

As far as how I tell good information-- I try to check as many different sources as I can. I try to consider where they got their information/experience and what the motive for providing it was... and then I cross my fingers.

(There is a ton of conflicting though-- For example-- I've read about substrate at several--- many--- different sites-- and I knew not to use repti-bark, pellets, or mulch-- But it seemed that there was a consensus that soaked coir and playsand is the way to go, in a 50/50 mix. So I bought my stuff, and then began to mix, and then it dawned on me-- 50/50 by volume, or by weight? Because that makes quite a difference. Well, it took me hours to find an answer on that, and finally went by weight... And the next day or so afterward, I read (on this site)- nope, not right-- NO SAND. While I couldn't find a ton on that elsewhere specifically (saying "no sand"), I read about intestinal blockage and the torts digestive system, and etc, etc-- and it sure made sense not to use sand... Sooooo-- my garden got a nice coir/sand additive, and I remixed a new batch of coir with soil. So-- just goes to show you, even if you read a ton, and then look for even more detail-- you can be misled. Now I've read a few opinions that said not to use coir, either! Just go with the soil... so I'm watching that whole debate to see what can be made of it...)


----------



## ascott (Mar 16, 2014)

There are two types of belief systems that I have encountered in my life thus far;

Folks who believe they are entitled to, and those
Folks who believe they are part of....period.

The two very rarely ever change their core beliefs--I am not here to waiver anyone from one place to the other....there was a thread started here, I, along with others, have offered up my opinion---and that has not changed ....

Just because we can, does not mean we should.


----------



## Jacqui (Mar 17, 2014)

laramill said:


> (There is a ton of conflicting though-- For example-- I've read about substrate at several---



I use the sand and coir myself. The sand is less then 20%. I find, if you are taking proper care of your tortoise and it is healthy and hydrated, sand is not a problem. Sand is in fact a part of the make up of good soil. Every substrate has it's own potential issues. This just happens to be a forum, which has many vocal anti sand folks in it. Each forum and site has it's own way they seem to push for and you can certainly do it and do tortoise care differently and still see good results.

With the demonstartions, perhaps I should have used the word talks. I use to be very active in a reptile cllub and gave lots of talks with my turtles and tortoises. Schools, a zoo day thing, pet stores, ect.., You just use tortoise which are more people friendly and don't mind travel. My favorite one at the time was an adult male yellowfoot.


----------



## Saleama (Mar 17, 2014)

In my opinion, this is all circle of life stuff. The problem is, the arrogance of human nature has completly covered up the FACT that we are part of the animal kingdom. Every animal on this planet now, in the past and any in the future has, does and will use the other animals around it for many things including food, shelter and cover. From the tiniest bacteria to the largest creature on the Earth, we all use others. There is no exception to this. Do humans exploit beyond need? That is debatable. Some think so, others are sure of it and still others think not. There are many opinions out there and I have to say, none of them matter. And by that I mean, the truth matters 100%, ACTION matters 100%, how I or any others feel about it does not, accepting, of course, unless those feelings result in action. Are there more trees on the planet because of human intervention than there were 100 years ago? Maybe, probably. We fight fires that used to go unchecked and we plant trees as a crop now so there is that. Are dogs and cats and horses better off being domesticated than left on there own? I don't know the answer but I can tell you that my dogs seem to me much happier going to their water and food dish than the wild dogs on Discovery that have to eat rotten dead animals or try to catch rats and other small animals with varying success. And what about the rat and his right to not be exploited by the wild dog? 
I bought one of my Russian girls at Petsmart and if they have their bi-annual sale of Torts soon I will buy all three of the females at my local Petco where I buy all my crickets for my box turtles. I can also report that there are no fewer than 5 petsmarts and 3 petco's that house their Torts just a little better because I do go to them and look at their animals and I do say something if I see stuff being done wrong and not a single one of these places has ignored me. Maybe I am lucky? Maybe the animals in these stores are lucky to have reptile owners work their section? I don't know. But I do know that I will buy from these stores. 
I will say that I do admire TC's stance in that she is willing to take one for a cause that she believes in. I admire anybody willing to make such a stand whether I believe in their cause or their method.


----------



## Tom (Mar 17, 2014)

ascott said:


> There are two types of belief systems that I have encountered in my life thus far;
> 
> Folks who believe they are entitled to, and those
> Folks who believe they are part of....period.
> ...



Well now you have encountered a third type, because I subscribe to BOTH of your scenarios. I absolutely feel entitled to do what I need to do to survive, but I am also acutely aware that I am a very small part of a very big system, and that my actions can have a profound effect on that system.


----------



## ascott (Mar 17, 2014)

> I am also acutely aware that I am a very small part of a very big system, and that my actions can have a profound effect on that system.





> Again, _in controlled sustainable numbers_, I have no problem with this. _This is OUR planet, OUR animals_, and there is no reason we can't use these resources and space _carefully and responsibly. When it is done irresponsibly and recklessly,_ I am right there with you standing against it.



Tom, 

I still believe there are only two types...there truly is no middle ground on this subject (in my opinion, and that is all that I have any true say over).

Controlled sustainable numbers, we simply are not qualified in any way to take it upon ourselves to decide this.
This is OUR planet, OUR animals, I disagree and this just furthers my opinion that humans have no more right than an other creature--we just "think" we do.
Carefully and responsibly, unfortunately we are not qualified to go by any one agreed upon scale for these two words to be uniform.

Now Tom, you and I have beliefs in line on a number of tortoise care behavior...I have said it before and I will surely say it again in the future....I have respect for the information you offer in the housing and care of captive tortoise, you offer great time and good material from which to offer great set ups....however, you know as well as I do  we do not see all things the same, and with me that is fine


----------



## cdmay (Mar 17, 2014)

Ascott wrote this in response to Tom:
_"This is OUR planet, OUR animals, I disagree and this just furthers my opinion that humans have no more right than an other creature--we just "think" we do."_


Ascott, I'm glad you feel strongly about your beliefs. I don't agree with you (I find that I agree completely with Tom, who is my Hero-For-The-Day) but I respect your position.
But I do have one question regarding your statement that we have no more right than any other creature...suppose you and your family were in the woods and a large bear burst out of the bushes and ate your 1.0.0 Son--right in front of you. Would you then simply walk home, (broken-hearted, of course) and say the bear had every right to eat your son? Or would you call the proper authorities and have that bear tracked down and killed?


----------



## ascott (Mar 17, 2014)

> Ascott, I'm glad you feel strongly about your beliefs. I don't agree with you (I find that I agree completely with Tom, who is my Hero-For-The-Day) but I respect your position.
> But I do have one question regarding your statement that we have no more right than any other creature...suppose you and your family were in the woods and a large bear burst out of the bushes *and ate your 1.0.0 Son--right in front of you.* Would you then simply walk home, (broken-hearted, of course) and say the bear had every right to eat your son? Or would you call the proper authorities and have that bear tracked down and killed?



I find it interesting that many folks want to use their family for a point they feverishly try to make....I on the other hand do not appreciate you putting those vibes out in the world using my son....I would not ever do this to you nor anyone....

I am an adult and therefore I would respond in this way. If I were dumb enough to take my young son into the forrest/woods/wild (do any of those work for you?) where bears reside without a way to protect he and myself---you can bet your *** *I* would be what would come between my son being killed or not....trust me. There would be no need for authorities...not for me anyways....

Now, I choose carefully where we go. I respect the fact that when an animal strikes out ---especially to consume, it is not in any way a personal attack, you see---normally, usually, more often than not---humans are the primary animal that kills for the fun of it and for very personal reasons...kinda like how you picked my son as the topic for your "dramatic" moment....enjoy?


----------



## cdmay (Mar 18, 2014)

ascott said:


> > Ascott, I'm glad you feel strongly about your beliefs. I don't agree with you (I find that I agree completely with Tom, who is my Hero-For-The-Day) but I respect your position.
> > But I do have one question regarding your statement that we have no more right than any other creature...suppose you and your family were in the woods and a large bear burst out of the bushes *and ate your 1.0.0 Son--right in front of you.* Would you then simply walk home, (broken-hearted, of course) and say the bear had every right to eat your son? Or would you call the proper authorities and have that bear tracked down and killed?
> 
> 
> ...



_Whoa Ascott!_ Calm down, eh?! 
I was only using an illustration as a way of pointing out what I consider to be a fallacy of many who take the view that humans and animals are all of equal value. Typically people with this view will still use a mouse trap when their home is invaded by rodents, or will slap a mosquito on their arm, or will have their home fumigated when termites are eating it.
The bear eating a child illustration (holy crap I wasn't *really* suggesting that your 1.0.0 son get eaten!) was meant as a way of showing that most likely, you would have the offending animal put down and thus negating the 'we are all the same' belief.

I have found that when you really get down to the brass tacks, most people who take the feel good stance that people and animals are equal and have an equal right to freedom-- and the pursuit of happiness, really only apply this concept when it comes to pets. In this case wild caught tortoises. It's easy to get on a soapbox and make this idealistic stance and I guess it makes you feel noble. But it is a narrow and selfish view.

Believe it or not, I too find much of the animal trade quite nauseating and I wish it were better policed. I was around in the bad old days and my uncle even worked for Bill Chase in Miami during the 60's. Boy did he have some horror stories.
I used to visit all of the big importers in Miami on a weekly basis from the early 70's to the 90's and while things are far, far better now than before, there is still room for improvement as you have pointed out. 
In my opinion any importer or animal dealer found housing their animals in sub-standard conditions should get fined, or put in jail-- and for sure get their licenses yanked permanently. If these offenders are ever caught with wild animals again they should get mandatory jail time. Period.
You see I have zero tolerance for animal abuse in any form. And for the record, I can't stand the idea of birds in cages, or birds with clipped wings. I also hate trophy hunting and 'sport fishing'... but this is just me. 

But having said that I have no problem with certain numbers of wild animals being (again, tortoises) collected for the 'pet trade'. Mind you, I'm not saying that ALL turtles and tortoises are OK for this, but most probably are. 

Can't speak for Tom or others, but I would bet that their beef is the same as mine---remember the old saying about farmers, "Don't complain about the farmer with your mouth full" ? I would say the same thing to all of the people on this forum who deride keepers who have wild caught tortoises. Don't complain about me while you are caring for your captive bred tortoise. I might have been the one who hatched it for you.


----------



## ascott (Mar 18, 2014)

> I have found that when you really get down to the brass tacks, most people who take _the feel good stance that people and animals are equal and have an equal right to freedom_--



I don't have the desire for "the feel good stance". I feel this way because-- to me there is no other way, it is not an option---it is what drives me on a variety of levels. It just is who I am.



> _and the pursuit of happiness_, really only apply this concept when it comes to pets.



I don't know that I would refer to a wild animal pursuing "happiness", but rather not being raped of their right to remain a wild animal...simply because a human thinks it is alright for us to decide so....



> _get on a soapbox and make this idealistic stance and I guess it makes you feel noble. But it is a narrow and selfish view._



I believe some posts back, I clearly expressed that I make no effort to waiver a persons belief so it becomes in line with mine....I still make no effort to do that, I simply shared my personal feeling/opinion. Just as you have. I have no need nor desire to "get on a soapbox" nor do I feel noble for my beliefs, some days I am very disappointed actually with the behavior of alot of our species --noble is not a word that I would reach for....... I simply believe that we humans, _another_ species on this planet, are not qualified to make the vast choices we take upon ourselves to do, with little regard for anything but our own satisfaction ....we take no real regard to the damage we may be setting in motion, this to me is really what is selfish and shows how narrow minded this way of behavior truly is.

You are entitled, as is everyone else, to express, own, nurture the beliefs that you have...as am I.


----------



## cdmay (Mar 18, 2014)

ascott said:


> > I have found that when you really get down to the brass tacks, most people who take _the feel good stance that people and animals are equal and have an equal right to freedom_--
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fair enough. I do agree with you at some level about being who you are too.
Please keep in mind that my comments (as in the one about the bear) are not directed at you personally, but rather people who take a stand similar to yours but who may be even more extreme their views.
It is my assumption that many others besides you and I will read our exchange of thoughts, and much of what I say is geared toward them. 


Like I said above, by and large Tom has expressed my feelings quite well.


----------



## Tom (Mar 18, 2014)

I have been sent some info and pics from an importer friend about how it REALLY happens. It seems pertinent to this discussion and I would like to post it here.

Laramill, may I post this info here on your thread, or would you prefer that I start a new thread elsewhere?


----------



## Yvonne G (Mar 18, 2014)

Not all importers are alike, Tom. Someone like Tyler who imports on a small scale probably doesn't have the same conditions as the big importer. I used to go to SoCal and visit the big importers/wholesalers, and believe me, those tortoises were not kept in good conditions. They were piled up on top of each other and covered in feces with sick and dying tortoises all over the place.


----------



## DaveTheLeo (Mar 18, 2014)

Now while i agree wilds should not be caught and sold i disagree with you i happen to know from this part of scotland all the tortoise have been breed from the one guy and he sells the hatchlings ( after a certain size ) to all the pet stores around here . It may or may not be the case from where you are located but here i can 100% say i know where they are from and its not the wild


----------



## EricIvins (Mar 18, 2014)

Oh hey, I'm one of those evil Importers that feeds his family of the backs of Tortoises and other animals. I have plenty of unbiased advice and opinions about the trade, and some pictures too. Not a lot though. I do have to keep some things to myself...


----------



## Arnold_rules (Mar 18, 2014)

EricIvins said:


> Oh hey, I'm one of those evil Importers that feeds his family of the backs of Tortoises and other animals. I have plenty of unbiased advice and opinions about the trade, and some pictures too. Not a lot though. I do have to keep some things to myself...



No-No, I see the Death Star approaching and it is filled with Tortoises......Ah run in terror.

I have kept out of this debate, ie don't support/buy from the pet store, because it is a heated topic and all, but rather than taking such a fanatical stance, why not try to make it better. In addition to my shelled friend the DT, by the way born in captivity over 50 years ago (known him since hatchling), I also have the reef habit (small portion of the ocean in my living room). I supported fish stores that chose reputable importers or bought from local breeders. Petco was infamous for having very poor habitats for their fish and corals. I got talking to one of the local Petco fish managers and talking about their salt water set up and how they could improve it. The store took the initiative to redo their entire system and starting dealing with better importers and turned their salt water operation around. Now, was it because of me talking to them, doubt it, but the managers did seem very interested in what I had to say.

What does that have to do with tortoises? Nothing, but I know it has been suggested by many members to talk to the store to try to get them to change and may be even offer to help them to change. Let's face it, one person boycotting a big box is not going to change a thing, but if you show initiative, who knows what can happen.

Just my two cents on all this silliness of evil empires and crusading tree huggers. Won't even get into habit destruction as a leading cause of some of the tortoise issues....Oh, wait, that is those darn humans again wanting to grow crops to eat.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Mar 18, 2014)

Yvonne G said:


> Turtles and tortoises have not undergone years and years of human intervention to become domesticated, thus ALL turtles and tortoises are wild animals, not just the wild-caught ones.
> 
> The countries of origin USUALLY will put limits on export of animals that are being depleted from the wild.
> 
> I don't think pet stores are the problem. The illegal trade is the problem.



"LIKE"




laramill said:


> http://www.tortoisereserve.org/researchandconservation/Bred_Torts_Body2.html
> 
> For anyone who would like to look into it further, this is a very good, researched and cited article on the topic.



For what it's worth Dave Lee has many many wild caught animals. I now that for sure.


----------



## Cowboy_Ken (Mar 18, 2014)

I would like to have my w/c russians produce at a strong enough rate to enable me to sell the hatchlings at wild caught prices. 
If you want to put the illegal trade out of business, compete.


----------



## T33's Torts (Mar 18, 2014)

*Re: RE: Please don't support pet stores that sell wild-caught torts!*



Cowboy_Ken said:


> I would like to have my w/c russians produce at a strong enough rate to enable me to sell the hatchlings at wild caught prices.
> If you want to put the illegal trade out of business, compete.



Good plan you've got there.


----------



## Cowboy_Ken (Mar 18, 2014)

And if my pancakes take off...wow! 
I don't know. Worked for the CIA in Columbia, oh wait, that didn't work out did it?


Other than rolling smokes on the front deck, Tiffany, that's my only plan.


----------



## T33's Torts (Mar 18, 2014)

*Re: RE: Please don't support pet stores that sell wild-caught torts!*



Cowboy_Ken said:


> And if my pancakes take off...wow!
> I don't know. Worked for the CIA in Columbia, oh wait, that didn't work out did it?
> Other than rolling smokes on the front deck, Tiffany, that's my only plan.



Good to know you live life to the fullest.


----------



## Cowboy_Ken (Mar 18, 2014)

We'll just leave it at, â€œWhen I go into town, people know my name." And most have heard what I want for a ring tone!


----------



## T33's Torts (Mar 18, 2014)

"Do you remember me?"
"Oh yeah!!! You're the guy that wants to sell turtle porn!"


----------



## laramill (Mar 18, 2014)

Tom,
It's fine with me if you post your photos here- but people should understand that, just as my photos of really poor pet store care does not represent ALL pet stores, neither would yours represent all importers.

I understand that there are some good importers. (I also understand there are pet stores that sell captive breed tortoises- but I was told by a PetCo district manager that their chain does not) Yvonne G seems to have first hand knowledge of both extremes of the importers, and while it's not clear, maybe even specifically of the good importer you are speaking of. 

You could compare this easily to dog breeding. There are some excellent breeders out there, and there are also horrible disgusting ones as well. I think people who are made aware of the differences usually prefer to get their pet from the good breeders - not only for bigger ethical reasons, but also because they know they will probably get a better, healthier pet. The biggest difference in comparing dog breeding to tortoises is, as I understand it, unhealthy tortoises have a harder time successfully breeding than unhealthy dogs. (I am hoping this means that to breed torts successfully, they need to be receiving proper care) And of course, we don't need to be concerned about wild populations of dogs that are already facing other challenges to their survival.

I am not directing this at breeders who need wild caught tortoises in limited numbers to keep their offspring healthy. I'm not directing this at smaller, responsible importers. It was directed to people considering buying their tortoise from large chain stores, which told me they don't supply CB torts as a choice for their customers because they can't find a limited # of breeders that can supply the large numbers they need for their entire chain. Basically, they want a couple vendors who are large scale enough to supply all their product for the chain.

This is where I have a problem. That is why I was asking potential tortoise buyers to be aware of what they are supporting. 

If someone got their tortoise from such a situation, I don't hold this against them. A friend of mine bought a 'chug' puppy, not thinking to look into the background of it, and only later learned it was a puppy mill puppy. I don't hold this against her or her dog. But I was happy when she told me she'd not like to find out her next dog was a mill product, and would fine-tooth comb the background next time.

So, please, feel free to post the pictures, post his name and address if you recommend him and approve of his policies and great care. I think potential tort owners SHOULD be made aware of reputable sources.

But, just from Yvonne's reply to you, it does not sound like he was the type of mass-scale importer this thread was directed toward.


----------



## Tom (Mar 18, 2014)

Yvonne G said:


> Not all importers are alike, Tom. Someone like Tyler who imports on a small scale probably doesn't have the same conditions as the big importer. I used to go to SoCal and visit the big importers/wholesalers, and believe me, those tortoises were not kept in good conditions. They were piled up on top of each other and covered in feces with sick and dying tortoises all over the place.



What year (or range of years) was that? I suspect I know exactly which one(s) you visited. Did you visit West Coast Reptile when Ed Kammer owned and ran it? That one was first class all the way. I do remember who the bad ones were, and we spent not one dime in those awful places. I did spend a fair amount of time complaining about them to their managers.


----------



## Arnold_rules (Mar 19, 2014)

tffnytorts said:


> "You're the guy that wants to sell turtle porn!"



Oh no....Not turtle porn. That is as bad as a kitty porn. And it doesn't just stop at turtle porn, it leads to goldfish and lizard porn, turtle is just a gateway.


----------



## FLINTUS (Mar 19, 2014)

Have been reading this and thinking whether to reply with my own personal opinion or not. I am not going to reply to the debate specifically, just state my opinion.
I do own 3 almost certainly WC animals. They are k.erosa, about 3 years in captivity, I bought them from a guy who got them from a pet shop before they stopped importing them into the UK. To find CB erosa for sale, would be very very unlikely indeed, yet alone adult CB. This is because, as far as my knowledge goes, we are barely reaching double figures with the number of successful matings and then a following successful incubation of this species in captivity worldwide. This is almost certainly the same with impressa and chersina and other species like that. 
On the other hand, I own 4 CB Red Foots. This is a species with a great captive gene pool, so apart from specific locality breeding and maybe the odd big animal to add new genes, I would say that for the most part, WC ones are not needed. This goes for hermanni, graeca-in Europe both of these are prevented from wild trade due to them requiring A10s-, pardalis and the like as well.
Russians are something that interests me with regard to the situation that the keepers on this forum appear to say for the US. We have a huge number of captive bred ones in the UK and mainland Europe, more than breeders can rehome even for free. Even as adults as CB, they are not put on the market for more than about $250 max. As yearlings, they are usually about $150. So if importers are willing to import them from Asian steppe, surely they could just import the â€˜unwantedâ€™ ones from Europe? After all, it would not be much more, and I would suspect probably easier. 
My overall opinion is that WCs are needed for some species, but the more â€˜commonâ€™ tortoises should very rarely be imported-only for genes or locality. I guess this is kind of done with exportation quotas, but IMO they are not very well assessed.


----------



## laramill (Mar 19, 2014)

Your points are good and well taken.

Unfortunately, it seems that as some animals become common (that is, more successfully bred), they become less popular with some people. (Or is it that as more breeders rush to meet the demand, the supply suddenly balloons larger than existing demand?) I really don't know. 

I hope we don't see the same thing that happened in the 90's with parrots. It was a bit of a fad to have parrots, but parrots longevity (lifespan) was greater than the fad. Some people that really didn't understand the care requirements began to give them up as the fad subsided and reality kicked in... now there are parrot reserves and rescues homing theses birds. (And please don't generalize that to to mean "all parrot owners"- lots were/are in it for the long haul and are super caretakers)

I remember long ago when the first "101 Dalmations" movie came out, suddenly that started a fad that led to an overabundance of Dalmations being bred because everyone wanted one. But there are other breeds that make better family dogs for people with children or with limited space- Soon they were in the shelters. Right now, in our area anyway, the shelters are full of pit bulls.

Some breeds may be over- collected from the wild needlessly. And it would be shameful if we somehow impacted a wild population just to, in the long run, have a captive wc over-population.


(Btw,that was regarding the post by flintus)


(...and his comments about the russian torts specifically)


----------



## FLINTUS (Mar 19, 2014)

This is how I see it:
When tortoises are bred in captivity for one of the first times, there is a lot of interest from specialist keepers-impressa, forstenii although they are becoming more common in the US by the looks of it, pyxis etc. When the breeder starts breeding more, the market expands to the more general public as now more people are breeding them and their care is being rated as 'easier'-often from offspring off the original keepers, this is where hermanni, graeca, carbonaria etc. are at the moment. Eventually the market will become over-saturated, and because they are so popular the demand goes down, leading to people struggling to re home them-Horsfields in Europe, Sulcatas in both Europe and N.America but more the latter.
When you have this last stage, I think you have a few options:
Breeding locality specific groups so specialists are interested again
Completely reduce the price and make a loss, and even then maybe not get rid of them all
Stop breeding altogether
This last one is going to cause trouble as I know some UK reptile keepers feel that the US dumps it snakes on us and stuff, but pass these animals on in large imports to countries who want them-for the US the obvious option would be Canada.


----------



## LABZOO (Mar 20, 2014)

Skymall007 said:


> I see both sides of the issue. I think ideally only CB animals should be sold to the public and WC animals only sold to certified breeders who need to bring in new blood lines. I don't want to get caught in the crossfire but there seem to be misunderstandings on both sides. I didn't read the OP as trying to boycott these pet stores but rather to not spend money on certain parts of what they sell to show there is no desire for that item. I am doing a similar thing with iguanas. I always discourage people to buy iguanas from anywhere but specialized reptile stores because petco and petsmart have no business selling them (especially at the prices they do). I encourage them to sell water dragons instead but that is an entirely different topic. I am into animal welfare (not animals rights). I will also soon be finishing up my Biology degree, what I have learned from that is that humans do often disturb wild populations and we don't have enough guidelines for how many animals are taken from the wild. I think there might be a middle ground here.
> 
> 
> Captain Picard once said "there is no justice is absolutism." This is true. Wilson may be WC and that may be against Laramill's belief system but Wilson is now in good hands and used to captivity. Placing him back into the wild would not be best either because you never put captive animals back for a number of reasons. It is not always wrong to take WC torts from the wild but often it is. It's not just one side or the other. Usually there is a middle ground. I don't believe in taking large wild cats out of the wild for zoos (I am against keeping apex predators). However, there are circumstances where exceptions must be made. For example, perhaps they have dwindling numbers in the wild and a captive breeding program is necessary. Perhaps their habitat is gone and we will lose this animal. Perhaps research needs to be done. So you see, no absolutism.





Agreed




ascott said:


> No wild animal should be removed from the wild...this is my belief. None. Humans have a way of feeling entitled, owed--some crazy right to go in and disrupt an entire system of life simply because..."ooo, those are pretty, I want one"....
> 
> I believe that every turtle and every tortoise should have been left in the wild, left to live and die, in their natural place---but this is excused because people move in, rape and pillage too many spaces and then say "thank goodness people stepped in to help the "whatever animal here" survive" a terrible selfish way to think....just because humans can, does not mean we should.
> 
> ...



Agrrrrreeed!


----------



## LABZOO (Mar 20, 2014)

Tom said:


> There is NOTHING wrong with removing a limited number of a species from the wild. None of us would have our pets at all if you had your way. We should not be damaging wild populations and taking too many, but bringing some in and breeding them is how we get the Captive Bred animals to in the first place. You cannot have have CB without WC coming first. It is my opinion that ANYONE who keeps any animal captive in their home or yard and then rails against the "horrors" of removing those poor little babies from their idyllic wild home, is both naive and a total hypocrite. Thinking with ones emotions seems to be all the rage these days, but it is not a good trend.
> 
> As far as housing, we have been over this many times before here on this forum. NO ONE thinks those little tanks and crowded conditions are good. But that is supposed to be a practical, TEMPORARY housing situation until they get bought and taken home to a proper living situation.
> 
> ...



I want to chime in here, mostly because I can see both side. I used to work reptile store retail and give educational programs at schools etc. After I completed my zoology (minor in cog behav sci and envs) degree my views changed dramatically. I whole heartedly believe there are people out there doing their best with the animals they have, however, no one can deny the impact the exotic animal trade (legal and illegal) has on population and community dynamics, wildlife and ecosystem health and even public health. Then we get into the welfare issues. Ecology and Animal Welfare and both sciences and should be treated as such. Also, there is captive breeding programs (science) and then their is captive breeding (self aggrandizement and/or profit). As someone interested in species recovery science I am NOT opposed to captive breeding programs which use wc animals for the purpose of APPLIED CONSERVATION...hobby breeding has nothing to do with conservation in this sense. 

So..

eeeek  I would caution "NOTHING" wrong with removing a limited number. I typically do not like hearing or using such indisputable comments relating to biology or the natural world (we do not know near enough). Scientists still stuggle with maximum sustainable yeild, so how can joe-blow out in the bush collecting animals have a better understanding of what is sustainable?? And just how many joe-blows are out there? 
I keep hearing this "one CB = one less WC". Someone please explain the logic behind this? You honestly think that if we have captive stock we will not need WC and harvesting will end-except by those who "need" new bloodlines? I would love some research on this bc all I have found is evidence of the opposite? It might reduced SOME wild collecting but to say captive breeding will end wild harvesting is absurd. Numerous papers abound relating to the illegal parrot trade and captive breeding - in summary, it is not working. Can you please give me the reference so I can find the peer reviewed article that states "one captive bred animal means one less wild caught" it seem fallacious. Thanks.


I think we should focus on proper husbandry and general health care so that perhaps the demand can be reduced if people could keep their animals ALIVE. These are NOT domesticated animals and should not be called "pets" by any stretch of the imagination. They should NOT be sold in pet stores unless the store has taken upon itself to train, educate and discriminate those customers who are not suitable.
ps- Your point that every exoitc can be traced back to a wc animal is very true. Sad, but true. However, does that past act justify the acts occuring today, when populations are decreasing at an alarming rate and habitat destruction threatens to halt evolution in its tracks? 

Its not like it used to be...


----------



## ascott (Mar 20, 2014)

> As someone interested in species recovery science I am NOT opposed to captive breeding programs which use wc animals for the purpose of APPLIED CONSERVATION..._hobby breeding has nothing to do with conservation in this sense. _





> I typically do not like hearing or using such _indisputable comments relating to biology or the natural world (we do not know near enough)._ Scientists still struggle with maximum sustainable yield, so how can joe-blow out in the bush collecting animals have a better understanding of what is sustainable?? And just how many joe-blows are out there?
> _I keep hearing this "one CB = one less WC". Someone please explain the logic behind this?_ You honestly think that if we have captive stock we will not need WC and harvesting will end-except by those who "need" new bloodlines? I would love some research on this bc all I have found is evidence of the opposite? _It might reduced SOME wild collecting but to say captive breeding will end wild harvesting is absurd._





> I think we should focus on proper husbandry and general health care so that perhaps the demand can be reduced if people could keep their animals ALIVE. _These are NOT domesticated animals and *should not be called "pets" by any stretch of the imagination.* They should NOT be sold in pet stores unless the store has taken upon itself to train, educate *and discriminate those customers who are not suitable*._
> ps- Your point that every exotic can be traced back to a wc animal is very true. Sad, but true. However, _does that past act justify the acts occurring today, when populations are decreasing at an alarming rate and habitat destruction threatens to halt evolution in its tracks? _



I have completely enjoyed your share here....thank you.


----------



## Saleama (Mar 21, 2014)

"I think we should focus on proper husbandry and general health care so that perhaps the demand can be reduced if people could keep their animals ALIVE. These are NOT domesticated animals and should not be called "pets" by any stretch of the imagination. They should NOT be sold in pet stores unless the store has taken upon itself to train, educate and discriminate those customers who are not suitable."

I enjoyed your post. Many good points. I would like to point out though, and in keeping with the topic, Pet stores are NOT selling these animals because they love them and want to see them survive and thrive in the wild or in captivity. They sell them to make a profit. That is their number one priority and thus, the glue that holds this arguement together. Profit mentality will ALWAYS lead to less than prime conditions, always. Look at some of the breeders on here. They make a profit sure, but their priority is the animals they work with. You can see it in their posts and pics of their animals, and the care given is exceptional. Petco and Petsmart are never going to provide everything a tortoise needs for long term care. It is not profitable and as stated, that is their priority. What the ones I have visited do is provide adequate care for a short time until the animal is adopted. The short coming, in my opinion, is that they pass on this short term care as the way the animal should be housed and THAT, is what I feel needs to change. So while I agree with your statement, I don't entirely agree that they should make sure an adoptive parent already has the skills to take care of the tort (I don't think any of us did with our first one) but rather make sure that the person has the resources made available to them to take care of the animal. I am happy to say that the one Russian Tort I have purchased from PetSmart was healthy and active and the associate who sold her to me offered plenty of info and pulled me aside to make sure I understood that the way the store kept them was not the way they should be kept. 

It was an Arlington Texas store by the way and they had received a shippment of lizards and snakes when I was there and all the associates were over oohing and ahhing over the animals and preparing bathes and all kinds of stuff to help the little guys. I was quite impressed actually.


----------



## Skymall007 (Mar 21, 2014)

I personally believe that when buying an exotic animal of any kind it is best not to buy from the chain stores. I buy my animals from my local reptile store where the staff is knowledgeable and very caring. In fact, the owner won't sell his animals, no matter the price, if he suspects you don't have the experience to care for them. I am also 100% certain that their animals eat better than I do. They do a lot of captive breeding there. The other place I buy from is the International Reptile Rescue. I have volunteered with both places. I think the reasons Russians are so often WC is because they don't reproduce as easily or they don't lay as many eggs? Something like that. We can never completely stop the WC trade because it is important to maintain an healthy CB population. BUT we can minimize the amount taken from the wild and we can control who has access to WC (only responsible breeders). The public should only have CB. 

This may sound weird but there is a similar debate with hermit crabs. Thousands (probably more) are taken from the wild and put into the pet trade. The amount worries me because there is no way that doesn't impact their wild populations. Sure enough, in some areas they are seeing the results. Hermit crabs are VERY difficult to breed in captivity. In fact, it has only been done three times and usually by members of the Hermit Crab Association (proud member!) We want to eventually have captive breed hermits to reduce those taken from the wild.


----------



## Shelly (Mar 21, 2014)

Removing an animal from the wild has the same effect on the environment as shooting it in the head with a gun. In fact, it's worse, because it leaves no carcass behind for the scavengers.


----------



## ascott (Mar 21, 2014)

> Removing an animal from the wild has the same effect on the environment as shooting it in the head with a gun. In fact, it's worse, because it leaves no carcass behind for the scavengers.



Yes, stated perfectly.


----------



## Yvonne G (Mar 24, 2014)

I think this thread has gone about as far as it can go (and has been reported a couple of times), so I'm closing it. If many of you object and want it opened, PM me and I'll see about it.


----------

