# lettuce confusion



## John (Nov 14, 2010)

so it is generally stated that lettuce is not bad just lacking in nutrition,yet alot of experienced keepers will use spring mix.spring mix is lettuce!Im confused,what am i missing here can someone please enlighten me. thanks john


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## t_mclellan (Nov 14, 2010)

I think the reference is to "Iceberg" lettuce.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 14, 2010)

Hi John:

The best diet for your tortoise is a natural one, that is, grasses and weeds that are growing for him to graze on. It isn't always possible to allow a tortoise to graze, so we go to the next best thing, dark, leafy greens. When we say "dark, leafy greens," we're talking about escarole (lettuce), endive (lettuce), turnip greens, kale, mustard greens, raddiccio, etc.

The lettuces that are in Spring Mix, are also considered dark, leafy greens. But they are in a very young state, picked before the plant could mature.

I feed my babies Spring Mix, but to it I will add mulberry leaves, grape leaves, maybe a handful of clover, or whatever I can find outside this time of year. Its getting harder and harder to find edible growing plants this time of year, but there is a nice variety in the Spring Mix, so I believe its ok.


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## John (Nov 14, 2010)

emysemys said:


> Hi John:
> 
> The best diet for your tortoise is a natural one, that is, grasses and weeds that are growing for him to graze on. It isn't always possible to allow a tortoise to graze, so we go to the next best thing, dark, leafy greens. When we say "dark, leafy greens," we're talking about escarole (lettuce), endive (lettuce), turnip greens, kale, mustard greens, raddiccio, etc.
> 
> ...



thank you for the replies it is hard too find anything outside now we have had a few frosts and the danaelions froze they are still green but i have read they change after freezing spring mix it is thanks again john


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## Madkins007 (Nov 14, 2010)

I'd like to add that there is nothing inherently evil in Iceberg or Romaine, or any other normal lettuce. Iceberg has an almost 1:1 calcium/phosphorous ratio, which is a bit lower than we would like, but not horribly so.

It is claimed to be empty of nutrients, but in reality it is full of moisture, nitrogen, and other useful items. It is also important to remember that MOST of the foods we feed our tortoises are more nutrient-rich than the wild foods. If Iceberg had a little more calcium and some fiber, it would be a great tortoise food!

The big problem with Iceberg is that for a while, it was THE MAIN thing a lot of people used since it was cheap and readily available. As a main food item, it is not good. Its bad reputation has hung on strong.

The truth is that pretty much every human edible green* is at least OK for tortoises in moderation as part of a varied diet.




*= I know questions or comments about things like kale, cabbage, spinach and lambsquarters will come soon. The first two because of goiterogens, the last because of oxalates.

Goiterogens are plants that tend to be low in or inhibit iodine in the diet and contribute to goiters. This is a serious concern when feeding cabbage, etc. to giant tortoises but it has only rarely been seen with most other species. Cabbage, kale, etc. is perfectly safe in moderation in a varied diet.

Oxalates bind the bio-available calcium in the food they exist in. Too much oxylic acid is toxic to humans, but apparently not to tortoises. Too much is also one possible cause behind bladder stones, although dehydration seems to be a more important element. Most tortoises seem to enjoy at least some foods with oxalates, and they often provide other important nutrients. Again, they are OK in moderation in a balanced diet.

"OK in moderation in a balanced diet" means treat them the way you would things like salt, bacon, ice cream, etc. in a GOOD human diet- OK once in a while but not often and not going crazy with it.


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## DeanS (Nov 14, 2010)

The answer is...SANTA BARBARA MIX from Ready-Pac! It contains endive, escarole and radicchio...the greens that torts thrive on...without any lettuce whatsoever. I'm telling you, within the next couple years, Santa Barbara Mix will replace Spring Mix as the staple in everyone's tort diet! Follow this link and scroll about halfway down the page (it's listed under UNIQUE BLENDS).

http://www.readypac.com/products/index.php?print=y


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## John (Nov 14, 2010)

DeanS said:


> The answer is...SANTA BARBARA MIX from Ready-Pac! It contains endive, escarole and radicchio...the greens that torts thrive on...without any lettuce whatsoever. I'm telling you, within the next couple years, Santa Barbara Mix will replace Spring Mix as the staple in everyone's tort diet! Follow this link and scroll about halfway down the page (it's listed under UNIQUE BLENDS).
> 
> http://www.readypac.com/products/index.php?print=y


i did see your statements about santa barbara mix in previous threads i am looking for it here where i live no luck yet cant wait till my torts get bigger and i can just buy the ingredients too these mixes in bulk and mix it my self thanks john



I want too thank you all for your replies,I got off too a rough start in the forum and probably rubbed some people the wrong way, cant help it its the way i am,but i do try.this thread has givin me a new understanding of the diet i need too provide and i thank you all for taking the time too reply thanks john


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## moswen (Nov 14, 2010)

hey squamata! i used to use spring mix, but i really have moved away from it as it can contain any number of lettuces "depending on availability" and i really was unsure what i was feeding my babies, and i didn't like that! i'm overly ocd about my torts... ! drives my husband crazy haha. anyway, i just started buying 2 or 3 clumps of mustard/turnip/dandelion greens, kale, escarole.... & etc, and i made my own "spring mix" boxes. i have 2 plastic shoe boxes that fit perfectly in a section of my fridge and i just divide the foods up, and i vary it every time i go to the store. i also grow grape leaves, fig leaves, mulberry leaves, dandelion, hibiscus, clover, a sulcata seed mix of grasses and weeds, a bannanna tree, and of corse opuntia and aloe. all this i feed them, varied from day to day, along with some seasonal fruits or carrots or something.

the things with lettuces that i hate is, like everyone said, while they are not BAD for your tortoise, they are not GOOD for him either. there are healthier food sources out there. but the problem is that tortoises LOVE romaien and iceberg and etc, all the bad stuff, just like kids! so i usually just tell most people "oh it's bad, don't feed it" and it kind of scares them away from it, which is good. there are a lot of noobs who sign on here and say "my tortoise won't eat anything but romaine and i just read it's bad!" 

i like to equate lettuces to pizza. i'd rather eat pizza every day of my life, but it would clog my arteries, make me gain weight, and i would not be getting every thing i need to maintain a healthy body. i also need fiber and protein and potassium and healthier dairies than cheese.... but if you put a pizza in front of me every day and i love it and i gobble it up, then one day you put a bannana in front of me, i would probably refuse to eat it. for one day, maybe two days... just to see if you'd start giving me that pizza agian. so then new tort owners get worried bc their tort isn't eating and they go back to the romaine, bc at least the tortoise is eating that way. but then you have a problem with a slightly under-nourished tortoise, and not-completely-nourished (i'm trying to stay away from the word "malnourished" haha) tortoise is more susceptable (sp?) to illness. did that make sense?! sorry for the novel!!


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## DeanS (Nov 14, 2010)

squamata said:


> DeanS said:
> 
> 
> > The answer is...SANTA BARBARA MIX from Ready-Pac! It contains endive, escarole and radicchio...the greens that torts thrive on...without any lettuce whatsoever. I'm telling you, within the next couple years, Santa Barbara Mix will replace Spring Mix as the staple in everyone's tort diet! Follow this link and scroll about halfway down the page (it's listed under UNIQUE BLENDS).
> ...



Of course, mixing the ingredients a la carte would be best...but if you plan to keep them for any length of time, make sure you dry them thoroughly so they don't wilt and go slimy on you....a good salad keeper bag couldn't hurt either!


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## John (Nov 14, 2010)

moswen said:


> hey squamata! i used to use spring mix, but i really have moved away from it as it can contain any number of lettuces "depending on availability" and i really was unsure what i was feeding my babies, and i didn't like that! i'm overly ocd about my torts... ! drives my husband crazy haha. anyway, i just started buying 2 or 3 clumps of mustard/turnip/dandelion greens, kale, escarole.... & etc, and i made my own "spring mix" boxes. i have 2 plastic shoe boxes that fit perfectly in a section of my fridge and i just divide the foods up, and i vary it every time i go to the store. i also grow grape leaves, fig leaves, mulberry leaves, dandelion, hibiscus, clover, a sulcata seed mix of grasses and weeds, a bannanna tree, and of corse opuntia and aloe. all this i feed them, varied from day to day, along with some seasonal fruits or carrots or something.
> makes perfect sense, i am sneakin in some mazuri mashed into the spring mix.only one of my torts is a problem here the others will eat anything i offer this one only romaine or the spring mix. ill keep up with this and the mazuri sneak and see if i can put some weihgt on him thanks for your response john
> the things with lettuces that i hate is, like everyone said, while they are not BAD for your tortoise, they are not GOOD for him either. there are healthier food sources out there. but the problem is that tortoises LOVE romaien and iceberg and etc, all the bad stuff, just like kids! so i usually just tell most people "oh it's bad, don't feed it" and it kind of scares them away from it, which is good. there are a lot of noobs who sign on here and say "my tortoise won't eat anything but romaine and i just read it's bad!"
> 
> i like to equate lettuces to pizza. i'd rather eat pizza every day of my life, but it would clog my arteries, make me gain weight, and i would not be getting every thing i need to maintain a healthy body. i also need fiber and protein and potassium and healthier dairies than cheese.... but if you put a pizza in front of me every day and i love it and i gobble it up, then one day you put a bannana in front of me, i would probably refuse to eat it. for one day, maybe two days... just to see if you'd start giving me that pizza agian. so then new tort owners get worried bc their tort isn't eating and they go back to the romaine, bc at least the tortoise is eating that way. but then you have a problem with a slightly under-nourished tortoise, and not-completely-nourished (i'm trying to stay away from the word "malnourished" haha) tortoise is more susceptable (sp?) to illness. did that make sense?! sorry for the novel!!



makes perfect sense i am slippin in some mazuri on them only one of my three is a problem hes the smallest and is picky about food, but the spring mix cut up with some mazuri paste seems too be working gotta give it some time and see if he starts too put weight on


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## moswen (Nov 14, 2010)

ye-yah! all my little torts come at mazuri like they've nver eaten before in their little young lives.


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## Nofx (Nov 14, 2010)

Does to much lettuce make tort's beak overgrow?


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## moswen (Nov 14, 2010)

Nofx said:


> Does to much lettuce make tort's beak overgrow?



haha, no! an overgrown beak can be easily avoided by putting your tort's food on a rock (rocks in the enclosure also help keep your tortoise's toenails short) and a nice hard cuttlebone in his enclosure also helps. hard things that scrape against your tortoise's beak and toenails on a regular basis help keep them trimmed naturally. 

if your tort's beak is overgrown currently, you can take him/her to the vet and they can clip it off. you can do this yourself with fingernail clippers, but i would personally be nervous to. it's kind of funny to say "let someone with experience do it" bc "someone with experience" had to start without experience... 

torts have a quick in their beaks and toenails just like birds, so if you clip too close you could cause your tortoise some pain and a bit of bleeding!


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## Madkins007 (Nov 14, 2010)

With proper diet, overgrown beaks and nails should not be much of a problem. Is your guy showing signs?


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## dmmj (Nov 14, 2010)

here is my problem with lettuce, it is not evil but it is low in nutrients I read somewhere that for a tortoise to get it total value on average they would have to consume 25 pounds of it in a day. I choose to feed it other more nutritious food, and again in the winter it can be hard (outside of california) to find fresh food for your torts.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Nov 14, 2010)

We feed only romain and red/green leaf lettuce to our hatchlings in minimal amounts from day one. They are placed outside in the full sun w/shade and they graze on natural grass, weeds, and cactus.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 14, 2010)

Nofx said:


> Does to much lettuce make tort's beak overgrow?



Beaks (and nails) grow too long because they haven't been allowed to scrape or bite. A tortoise's beak is kept worn down where it belongs because a tortoise grazes on grasses and weeds that it has to actually bite off a stem or plant. Nails grow too long because the tortoise wasn't allowed to walk on rough surfaces that it finds outside.

So we have to make allowances for our indoor animals and give them a rough surface to eat off of and give them a hard surface to climb on. And don't cut up their food. Make them bite it off.


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## Madkins007 (Nov 14, 2010)

Overgrown beaks (technically called 'overgrown rhamphotheca' if you want to Google it) can be from just an overly soft or low-fiber diet, but it can also be things like lack of vitamin D3 or other elements in the calcium cycle, or generally poor nutrition overall.


I found some cool articles about beaks, growth and misdevelopment looking for an answer to this-
- http://ncwildliferehab.org/newsletter/TheMakingofaBeak.pdf about the anatomy of a bird beak- similar but not identical to a tortoises

- http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...wQl3vqpRTXuq-1mAw&sig2=LoLeYocDXqqTf92zvda7CQ A nice article about development and diseases that has several lessons for us.


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