# Out or floor time?



## Rue (Mar 9, 2016)

I'm not talking about free roaming the house. But was wondering about supervised or safe 'out' times for added exercise.

For example: I can easily close off our main bathroom (cats!). I could set up a little indoor/outdoor carpet and a lamp. Goosefoot can safely roam a decent amount of space...and go under the lamp if she needs to.

I can put out food in different spots to add foraging enrichment - or add other tortoise safe objects to explore.

I'd only do this while we're at home during the evenings and for an hour or so, but it would add to her day (when she's old enough...not yet even - she's a November hatch).

Other than floor being too cold for extended periods of time (and this bathroom is central - and one of the warmer rooms) I can't see an obvious drawback. I can see the advantages though.

Thoughts?

Keep in mind we live in Canada with serious climate concerns. As soon as it gets warm enough I plan to have her outside in a safe cage daily, for some summer sun, but for short periods in the evening when we're home [it should fit in well with our routine - let the dogs out, discuss our day with the parrots (they are very nosey), pat the cats, feed the horses, sun the tortoise!]. 

While we intend to build an outdoor enclosure for her for when she's old enough (which would be doable from May - September most years (thinking a modified dog run will be our best option) - I still think having the opportunity to have more roaming space can only be good for her when she's indoors - which will be most of the year in our climate.

Thoughts?


----------



## Sara G. (Mar 9, 2016)

I think the main issues with letting torts have floor time is that the floors are so much colder than we think. So torts cool down much cooler once they're on the ground which can be dangerous for them. Having a lamp set up might only heat up that small area and it still might be too cold in the rest of the room for your tort, even if it is a bathroom.
Also there's always the danger of your tort eating something it shouldn't. But I suppose in a bathroom there isn't too much risk there, as long as it can't nibble on the calk around the toilet or whatever.
But I'd be worried about stress. Moving your tort to a bathroom like that could be very stressful for the first few times. I suppose eventually they'd get used to it though.


----------



## Tom (Mar 9, 2016)

There are a lot of hazards on the floor. They get kicked, stepped on, mauled by other pets, they eat things you didn't know were there, its too cold in some cases, there is nowhere to hide and the exposure can really stress them, Etc… One member squashed her tortoises head in the back of the door inadvertently. Another member's tortoise swallowed a 2" sewing pin and she has no idea where it came from. The stories are endless. The point is that everyone who does this _thinks_ its perfectly safe, until their tortoise is sick, dead, injured or impacted, and they finally realize that its not safe. No one would intentionally put their tortoise in harms way, yet many many tortoises are harmed when people engage in this practice.

There is a lot of risk, and there is no benefit to roaming the floor, vs. hanging out in their own enclosure. If the enclosure is too small to meet the tortoises needs, then make it bigger. Its just not worth the substantial risk.


----------



## Rue (Mar 10, 2016)

Thanks guys!

I am still having a little difficulty wrapping my brain around some things. So bear with me and my questions please! 

I see pet tortoises in all kinds of outdoor enclosures, so obviously they can handle a range of living conditions in captivity. I've been to Hungary, which is part of the range of the Hermann's so I have an idea of their natural habitat. I've seen numerous videos and pictures of healthy looking tortoises in what would be considered unacceptable living conditions compared to 'ideal' standards. I've seen wild tortoises who come for daily meals/treats at someone's house (when they are taking the time to feed them). We handle our pet tortoises fairly often...even if it's only to put them in their bath 3-4 X a week - so captive bred animals are used to being handled/experience change from day one.

Obviously, in nature, there is biotic variability and extremes - and the tortoises deal with them. Much more so than what they would get in an enclosure. They also adapt to routine (or they wouldn't show up for their daily lettuce fiesta at the local lettuce bar). Some like being stroked and scratched. I've also seen some 'ideal' enclosures that don't look all that ideal to me - so obviously even if you try to do everything right, you can still be wrong.

I'm remaining a little vague as to why some routine out time in a safe environment is detrimental (and I'm thinking an hour a day for added exercise). If I provide a heat lamp and the tortoise gets cold exploring the bathroom...wouldn't it head back under the heat lamp? The temperature in the bathroom is about 21 C/71 F.

I have a very clean bathroom...no hazards. Due to having multiple bathrooms in the house - I'm pretty much the only one who uses this one. I can always put up a sign on the door too...so no-one walks in during tortoise time. Or I can put up the baby gate and keep an eye out on the cats - but that would be less safe for the tortoise.

I have a tendency to play it over-safe to begin with. Sometimes I wonder if we get a little too hung up on playing it safe - to the point that it actually becomes detrimental?

Another example of this is child rearing trends in Europe vs. the USA. In Europe they are less likely to bubble wrap the kids. In the USA they are even doing away with recess. Which kid would you rather be? I'd prefer to have a tree to climb and a ball to chase...


----------



## Sara G. (Mar 10, 2016)

I totally hear (well read) what you're saying but I've read on several forms the concept of tortoises not understanding to go to the heated sections of a cold room.
Basically in the wild a tortoise would not be faced with an area that is below its normal temperature range and therefore does not have the knowledge that when it's too cold, it needs to seek out that heat source. Of course there are other threads that prove that they do, but there shouldn't ever be an instance in the life of your captive tortoise where they should have to make that choice.
You should be providing them the correct conditions all the time, putting a tortoise in a bathroom (possibly with tiled floors like mine which are much colder than their substrate would be) and just hoping that they'll make it to their heat lamp isn't fair to the tortoise.
Plus if the whole bathroom is cold except for one spot that's warm, why would the tortoise even bother walking around the rest of the bathroom? One would imagine that your tort would just sit under the lamp to keep warm and that's it.

I don't mean to sound rude or anything so please don't take it that way, but I'm entirely on Tom's side as far as this were to go.
Taking your tort out of their warm, safe home and putting them somewhere unknown and potentially dangerous--either they get injured, eat something they shouldn't, get too stressed, become sick from getting too cold, any and all of those things can and have happened to numerous tort owners who thought it would be okay--just doesn't seem fair for your tort.
Outside time, weather permitting, functions better because usually there are well set up, safe outdoor enclosures already prepared. Letting your tort wander around your yard without supervision isn't safe either and is a recipe for disaster. Plus if you are aware that you use pesticides or insecticide on your lawn then that's not good for your tort either. But setting up an enclosure outside is always better, as long as it is safe for your tort and the temperatures are okay.

Also, I haven't heard of many schools in the US removing recess, but I agree and would much rather climb a tree or catch a ball. But also, torts aren't kids. They're tortoises who rely on us to make healthy and important decisions for them that they (in the wild) wouldn't have to make or couldn't make for themselves.

I'm sure Tom and other users have much better insight to it than I do. And again, I don't want it to sound snotty or rude, I would just hate for anything to happen to your tort because that's such a horrifying and miserable loss.


----------



## Tom (Mar 10, 2016)

Rue said:


> I'm remaining a little vague as to why some routine out time in a safe environment...



I've quoted the concept that you are not grasping.

I appreciate your tone and thoughtfulness here. Some people get mad and leave, or throw a hissy fit. I'm glad that is not you. Our goal here is to prevent you from having to learn this lesson the hard way, as many of us already have, and at the expense of your tortoises life or health. So thank you for your patience and understanding.

The floor is simply, and cannot be, a "safe" environment. We see countless examples here on this forum and I see even more examples in my daily life because I am personal friends with several reptile vets. The stories I've heard would astound you. Every single person who has had one of these "accidents" asserted how safe they had made the area and they were sure nothing bad could happen.

Also, if the room temp is 71, the floor temp will be significantly colder. Measure it. Don't take my word for it. Got an infrared temp gun? Some of the ladies here have recommended removing all of your clothes and laying on the floor in question so that you will see just how cold it is first hand. I don't know if anyone has taken them up on it.

About your examples of substandard housing… Yes. Ive seen that too. We've all seen it. I don't see how a tortoises miraculous survival of substandard conditions serves as justification for doing things that are known to be unsafe.

This is not a case of overzealous parenting. This is a case of don't let your 5 year old run around the neighborhood.


----------



## Rue (Mar 11, 2016)

Good thing this is the "Debatable" folder! 

Sara: I wouldn't put a reptile on a cold ceramic floor. I'm not new to reptiles. I've had snakes and small lizards for over 40 years. But this is my first tortoise.

I'm not new to general animal care either...been involved with that in one form or another for over 40 years as well. On top of my own 'pets', I also have post-graduate experience in animal behaviour.

Regarding recess...this has been in the news lately (but it's been a growing issue for years).

https://www.romper.com/p/do-kids-in-the-us-need-more-recess-yes-they-desperately-do-6934

Tom:



> About your examples of substandard housing… Yes. Ive seen that too. We've all seen it. I don't see how a tortoises miraculous survival of substandard conditions serves as justification for doing things that are known to be unsafe.



Who is justifying unsafe practices? If you're going that route...I certainly hope you don't drive a car - major cause of death. We all know that. Better to not drive at all....no way to justify it.

And 5 year olds should be running around the neighbourhood...supervised of course. But that's part of the issue relating to link above (which is off-topic, but still interesting).

I did pick up a temperature gun the other day, thank you. Hadn't heard of them before I joined this forum - seems like a very useful tool! I do read and pay attention! 

We can also debate what's safe and what's not. I was rather appalled to find out that people transport their reptiles by FedEx...I can't imagine how traumatic that is for a reptile. Shipping with a company that specializes in animals is one thing...tossing them in the mail is another. Is it right to risk the life of animal like that?

Just an example...for further debate.


----------



## Tom (Mar 11, 2016)

Rue said:


> Good thing this is the "Debatable" folder!
> 
> Sara: I wouldn't put a reptile on a cold ceramic floor. I'm not new to reptiles. I've had snakes and small lizards for over 40 years. But this is my first tortoise.
> 
> ...



If you had seen what I've seen we would not be having this conversation. Go ask your vet for pictures or video of the last time he sawed open the plastron of a tortoise that was impacted because it ate something while roaming loose.

I'm not going to continue to try and convince you that its dangerous, only for you to come up with unrelated analogies that don't fit time and again. If you want to put your tortoise on the floor, go ahead. If something bad happens, you can't say you weren't warned. In the end, no matter how many words we type back and forth, you will do what you want. In time, you will know what I know on this subject.


----------



## Tom (Mar 11, 2016)

Double Post.


----------



## Rue (Mar 12, 2016)

Tom said:


> If you had seen what I've seen we would not be having this conversation. Go ask your vet for pictures or video of the last time he sawed open the plastron of a tortoise that was impacted because it ate something while roaming loose.
> 
> I'm not going to continue to try and convince you that its dangerous, only for you to come up with unrelated analogies that don't fit time and again. If you want to put your tortoise on the floor, go ahead. If something bad happens, you can't say you weren't warned. In the end, no matter how many words we type back and forth, you will do what you want. In time, you will know what I know on this subject.



I'm posting unrelated analogies?

I see that you don't want to debate, or even to discuss. That's fine too.


----------



## Randi (Mar 13, 2016)

I am not trying to start an argument or offend. I would like to say that I too, live in Canada, where it is cold and snowing the majority of the year. However, I've never put a reptile on a floor so it could have more enrichment or space during the cold months. Sometimes I feel excuses (bored, cold outside, enrichment, etc) are used to condone these practices. I knew that because of where I live, my tortoise and turtle will be indoors majority of the time and would require large indoor enclosures. We sometimes get two months each year that are decent for the reptiles to be out if lucky. And mine are only out during the day. I bring them inside in the evening. That meant I needed to have a large and interesting indoor enclosure for both. If you feel your tortoise (or any reptile) needs more enrichment and more space, build a larger enclosure. Build the biggest you can. An animal may suffice in an enclosure, even if we think it's large, but think about how much space they would have in the wild. There aren't any constraints on space. I want that for mine. Also, I don't imagine that being taken out of an environment that suits your needs, and being placed in one that's confusing and cold like a floor, would be of any benefit. It would be stressful. No substrate, no hides, no plants, no temperature gradients to choose from, etc. Ideally, everything a tortoise (or any reptile) would require would be inside the enclosure if they can't be outdoors. As mentioned, there are too many concerns in regards to impaction. I also would not feel comfortable letting my tortoise be on a floor. Think of how much bacteria is on a floor. Maybe even chemicals. If you can carry parvovirus home on your shoes and give the illness to your dog, then why couldn't the same happen to a reptile with an illness they could contract? The idea of them being anywhere other then their indoor or outdoor enclosure makes me nervous. Too many risks for it to be worth it. As I stated above, I'm not looking for an argument or debate. I'm stating my opinion on the matter. I feel the people who have commented above only want what's best. There have been many posts where people have stated that "it could never happen to theirs" as they had "taken every precaution", etc. It happened. Search the forum and you will find many practices that were advised against but ignored, and in the end the animal paid the price. This forum is here so people can learn from others rather then having to learn the hard way. You will do as you see fit. Hopefully it will be in the best interest of your tortoise. Best of luck to you and yours.


----------



## Rue (Mar 13, 2016)

Thank you for your opinion.



Randi said:


> .. I'm not looking for... debate. I'm stating my opinion on the matter. .



This is the "debatable topics" section.

I suppose maybe it might be of interest to debate what a debatable topic actually is?


----------



## naturalman91 (Mar 13, 2016)

Rue said:


> Thank you for your opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the problem with this debatable topic is it's been debated to many times over and over there must be 100 other threads about this exact same issue and it goes one of two ways normally either the thread get's started and the person leaves after hearing the advice not to put on the floor because they don't like the answer or the person defends what they're doing until they realize something is wrong with they're animal and come back asking people for help.


----------



## ZEROPILOT (Mar 14, 2016)

Yes. And Rue the tone gets to sounding rude after the same warning has been provided and typed over and over and over again.
The same very helpful members are generally the first to try to help. And it gets frustrating when we try to help. The help is not heeded and then that same member comes back with an emergency help request over the same subject.
Please understand that we are ALL on YOUR side.
Letting a tortoise roam in any portion of your home is just a bad idea.


----------



## jaizei (Mar 14, 2016)

naturalman91 said:


> the problem with this debatable topic is it's been debated to many times over and over there must be 100 other threads about this exact same issue and it goes one of two ways normally either the thread get's started and the person leaves after hearing the advice not to put on the floor because they don't like the answer or the person defends what they're doing until they realize something is wrong with they're animal and come back asking people for help.





ZEROPILOT said:


> Yes. And Rue the tone gets to sounding rude after the same warning has been provided and typed over and over and over again.
> The same very helpful members are generally the first to try to help. And it gets frustrating when we try to help. The help is not heeded and then that same member comes back with an emergency help request over the same subject.
> Please understand that we are ALL on YOUR side.
> Letting a tortoise roam in any portion of your home is just a bad idea.




QED

Rue is absolutely right, the majority of this forum does not seem to understand the concept of debate.


----------



## Rue (Mar 14, 2016)

naturalman91 said:


> the problem with this debatable topic is it's been debated to many times over and over there must be 100 other threads about this exact same issue and it goes one of two ways normally either the thread get's started and the person leaves after hearing the advice not to put on the floor because they don't like the answer or the person defends what they're doing until they realize something is wrong with they're animal and come back asking people for help.



I do research before I do anything...but my Googling skills must suck. This topic didn't readily come up - so I asked, in what I thought was an appropriate place.


----------



## Rue (Mar 14, 2016)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yes. And Rue the tone gets to sounding rude after the same warning has been provided and typed over and over and over again.
> The same very helpful members are generally the first to try to help. And it gets frustrating when we try to help. The help is not heeded and then that same member comes back with an emergency help request over the same subject.
> Please understand that we are ALL on YOUR side.
> Letting a tortoise roam in any portion of your home is just a bad idea.



Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I was going to contribute about the importance of 'tone' while giving advice - and whatnot...but decided best not to.


----------



## Rue (Mar 14, 2016)

jaizei said:


> QED
> 
> Rue is absolutely right, the majority of this forum does not seem to understand the concept of debate.



Thank you too, for your response. I am just looking for information. In order to learn one needs to be comfortable asking questions, at least that's what I tell my adult students when I encourage them to listen, think...and ask.


----------



## Yvonne G (Mar 14, 2016)

It has been my experience (and I'm talking about an outdoor experience, not indoor tortoises) that if you allow a tortoise to know that there's a world outside his fence, he's not happy being contained inside that fence anymore.


----------



## Yvonne G (Mar 14, 2016)

Rue said:


> I do research before I do anything...but my Googling skills must suck. This topic didn't readily come up - so I asked, in what I thought was an appropriate place.



You did the right thing. But this is one of our hot topics and it pushes buttons. If you'll notice, down at the bottom of your screen, it shows "similar threads." You can read what we've said in those threads too, however, it usually ends up like this one instead of a real debate.


----------



## Rue (Mar 14, 2016)

I did notice those 'similar threads', but only after I posted a new topic...thank you.

Feel free to lock/delete this thread. It's likely run its course.


----------



## Yvonne G (Mar 14, 2016)

Thread closed at OP's request.


----------

