# Experiments...



## stells (Jun 28, 2011)

I find it quite worrying that so many people seem to be experimenting on their tortoises... husbandry etc... and openly posting these experiments before they have concluded on the forum...

The way i see it anyone can look at the forum... and copy... then if these experiments don't work out... there are going to be more casualties than there originally would have been... if the experiments are a a success its all well and good...

Wouldn't it be better to complete the experiments first... taking pictures every step of the way... logging details... vet trips... bloodwork that has been done... etc etc... then posting the results when the experiment is over... thats way it would actually benefit the forum... instead of harming it IF things go wrong...

Don't get me wrong... i am one to try new things... if what i am doing isn't working out... but they are just small tweeks on opinions... and research i have done... and i don't advise on it until i have been doing it for a while... and i know it is working... then it will also be worded... as "well this is what i do with my tortoises"... so people can try it for themselves or not if they wish..

I know some will think i am trying to stir things here... but i really am not... just something that has been bugging me for sometime... and as more experiments are posted... the more it bugs me...


Don't delete it this time Danny!!!


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## yagyujubei (Jun 28, 2011)

People do these "experiments" because the "facts" we have learned on husbandry seems to mostly be incorrect. I am not sure just which experiments you have seen that you believe will result in casualties. This is not "the beginners only forum", and I for one applaud anyone who questions the status quo re: husbandry. From what i have seen on the UK sites, is that issues such as pyramided shells is accepted as basically normal,or at least not a top concern. and the answers seem to be keep then dry and don't feed too much. So, as a keeper, ther are basically a couple of different ways of doing things. 1) Raise your tortoises as we always have because that's the tried and true method. or 2) Try to move forward and do better than before. I welcome all new ideas. Do I blindly follow them? Nope.


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## dmarcus (Jun 28, 2011)

I agree with Missy "before the last thread was deleted" about maybe putting in a disclaimer or warning that it should not be tried at home because this is an experiment. But, some of these things may take years to see any results and it helps to see that progress along the way and to learn what others are doing. 

Somtimes for me its things like the enclosures that are being used or the diet being offered that will give me ideas. Some of the best stuff I have learned have been from those experiments threads and all the different post's that have gone along with them. 

Maybe it's the word experiment that is the problem. I know a lot of us try different things to make are tortoises better but we choose to call it a new idea or just trying something different, but in reality all we are doing is expermenting with different things to improve there lives. So maybe if it's not called an experiment any more and just termed "trying a new husbandry idea" then it would not seem as bad..


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## Yvonne G (Jun 28, 2011)

I understand where Kelly's coming from. But I really don't think the folks undertaking the experiments are doing anything that would harm the babies.

We have a wonderful opportunity here to learn and be able to say, "Well, in the Pacific Northwest, we have found that you need to take care of your sulcata babies this way..." And, "In very dry, desert-like conditions, it helps if you take care of your baby this way..."

Right now, we sort of have a one-size-fits-all kind of response. But with all these experiments all over the U.S. we will learn what works in the other climates.


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## stells (Jun 28, 2011)

Patience is a virtue... the best things come to those who wait etc etc...

The "experiments" may take years... but i personally feel they would be more construtive... as one big thread with the whole "experiment" at the start of it... made up of evidence and pictures... taken throughout the years... rather than split through pages and pages of comments such as aw those are great etc... i know i have gotten bored of wading through posts to see update pictures... to the point where i have given up... i think it would be more constructive if done that way...

There also aren't only members viewing the forums... you have guests that may not want to join up... but want to read to get idea's... these are more what i am getting at than members who can ask questions..

I also feel that "experiments" should not be generalized... when they have only been done on a handful of species... as this could also get newer people into thinking that it can be done with every single tortoise out there... i just know one will be done on greeks soon... even though myself and others have posted pictures of perfectly grown greeks that have been kept dry... with just internal hydration... 

I guess i am just a person who doesn't feel the need to big myself up by doing such things... maybe thats why i don't understand it..


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## Maggie Cummings (Jun 28, 2011)

Experiment # 4 is not an experiment at all. I am proving to Tom MAYBE, but I am simply raising my babies the way I have always told everyone to raise their Sulcata. Using my 4 things, actually they are not mine, they are the way I was taught by my sister. There are 4 things needed to prevent pyramiding...1. a good and varied diet 2. strong UVB 3. lots of exercise and lots of humidity. 

Stells...if you follow back any of my posts I have been saying this same thing about the 4 things needed to prevent pyramiding since I first came on to TFO.
It became an experiment when Tom decided to try and see if anyone's different ways of raising their babies actually made any difference at all. My 4 things, Toms keep them hot humid and hydrated and however Kristina calls her way of raising them. So it's actually not an "experiment" it's just trying to prove that one of those ways works better than others, or they all work. Mostly it's just fun.

I would NEVER do anything to any chelonian that would hurt them. I wouldn't keep any animal in a way I wasn't positive was the best way. None of these ways are an actual experiment. We all have three babies and we planned on comparing them as they grew that's all. Just trying to have fun with it...

I will continue to raise my babies using my 4 ways. I am sorry you find it boring we were simply trying to have some fun comparing our babies as they grew.


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## Chris.Todd.1991 (Jun 28, 2011)

I fully understand where your coming from, I hate when I look on a forum and see the title "experiment blah blah blah"...I'm sitting here like wait, this is your pet we're talking about, would you run 'experiments' on your dog or cat? But even since I joined the forum last year it seems huge progress has been made in the way we take care of our tortoises, and i know I've been helped out hundreds oftimes by the members of this forum.
I just hate seeing the word "experiment" when talking about our pets, something just gets to me. I know everyone on here is trying to better the lives of our tortoises, it bugs me out for some reason though :O
I'd rather see "observation of blah blah", I have no problem at all with trying out new things and setups, it's up to the person reading to blindly follow the new thing or to wait for results and see where it goes.
Sorry about my rant


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## stells (Jun 28, 2011)

TBH... Maggie... this wasn't about you... i read you experiment number 4 posts... and guessed all by myself that it was not an experiment... as there was no explanation about what you were trying to do... i don't actually get why you called it an experiment...

You raise your tortoises as you see fit... and i will pop over as i see fit... i think i have as much right as anyone to be here...


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## ascott (Jun 28, 2011)

Wow.....this thread makes me want to lot off and go sit in my tortoise enclosures and just be happy...I think we could all use a hug once in awhile when we are feeling our feathers ruffled abit .....when I first noticed threads with the word experiment in them the first thing that came to mind were guys in white coats cutting and spicing throwing their heads make with that evil scientist laugh in all the old movies...but then I said, self, let's see what the heck it is because I refuse to believe it....so I went on and read some and realized...hmmm? People are simply sharing their methods for hosting their tortoises and turtles....right on! I was then able to read and agree or disagree or just hush up and think abit before I would put my two cents in....sometimes I see threads and by the title I know it is going to be sad and gruesome...so I don't even click on it....when if come onto the forum I do so to see the way other people offer care for our captive buddies....sometimes I get ideas..sometimes I get a smile...sometimes I feel heartbreak...sometimes I get compelled to participate....but I get so sad when I see a thread that is damning ...harsh words and comments. So here comes aBIG OLE FORUM HUG for any who might need it...now I am logging off...then going out to feed all my guys the huge score of dandelions and greens I picked ...please everyone, don't be so quick to attack


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## Nay (Jun 28, 2011)

Hi, I don't usually make a comment in a 'heated' argument, but having someone just come to my house to pick up some extra things I had to help them set up their new RF I will step in. 
This forum has done nothing but help folks get new ideas. These dedicated individuals take the time to show us things they are doing to 'help' us all raise healthier happier torts. The person who came to my house had purchased a RF at one of the local pet stores. They sold her this young tort and told her a box with newspapers and strawberries as a diet was perfect. This is not about how Pet Stores are idiots by not educating people purchasing at their stores. This is about how this forum has people who will take the time money and energy to better educate everyone.
I,in turn, spent an hour with this girl, and she left with so much more info for her new pet. I told her to send me pics of her set up and I will help her "tweeK" it.
This forum has done that for me, and I will pay it forward.. I have done more 'tweeking' in the last couple years all do to the folks here.
THANK YOU!! ALL of you!! and please continue with your 'tweeking', maybe a more appropriate word than experiments.?
Just my thoughts.
Nay


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## Fernando (Jun 28, 2011)

I sort of agree to this thread to a degree  

It would be nice to get sort of a summed up conclusion, and while having everything documented, answer all the questions following the initial post. It makes things look clean and organized. I think that maybe the people doing the experiment are just so excited to share, that they just post as they go along...I can understand that too. Like someone mentioned here, maybe a disclaimer before the post of some sort. 

Experiment defined as - a test, trial, or tentative procedure; an act or operation for the purpose of discovering something unknown or of testing a principle, supposition, etc.: a chemical experiment; a teaching experiment; an experiment in living.

When I read everyone's angry post's on TFO, I imagine typing heavily on the keyboard almost slamming down on it to a point...take a breath guys. Go out to your tortoise and explain to them why you are so upset and see how they respond....


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## Neal (Jun 28, 2011)

FernandoM said:


> Go out to your tortoise and explain to them why you are so upset and see how they respond....



lol, wise words.


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## October (Jun 28, 2011)

I'm gonna be the odd woman out and agree with Kelly. Kinda. Classifying something as an experiment involving your torts has always made me uncomfortable. My in-progress science schooling has taught me that experiments are never foolproof and could be heartbreaking if I had to use my own pets. 

I'd personally use something like... analysis or investigation or something. I dunno. 

BUT what I do know is that the experimenters have nothing but the best interest at heart, so while the word experiment makes me uncomfortable, what they are trying to do does not.


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## dmarcus (Jun 28, 2011)

Neal said:


> FernandoM said:
> 
> 
> > Go out to your tortoise and explain to them why you are so upset and see how they respond....
> ...



I agree 100% with that!!


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## TylerStewart (Jun 28, 2011)

I agree the word "experiment" sounds harsh.... To me, an experiment is testing something that may or may not work. 

Raising a tortoise on nothing but water and Mazuri was an experiment. It worked surprisingly well.


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## onarock (Jun 28, 2011)

I agree Kelly. Do the expeiment then post the results and answer question. I like how some on here stated that they were doing an experiment to "prove" their method. And I like how others went off topic to discuss pyramiding as if it were the "top concern", dont think its that dramatic, but hey, some have it in their mind that it is the top concern. 

Oh, Tyler. I read it before it got moderated +1


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## wrmitchell22 (Jun 28, 2011)

emysemys said:


> I understand where Kelly's coming from. But I really don't think the folks undertaking the experiments are doing anything that would harm the babies.
> 
> We have a wonderful opportunity here to learn and be able to say, "Well, in the Pacific Northwest, we have found that you need to take care of your sulcata babies this way..." And, "In very dry, desert-like conditions, it helps if you take care of your baby this way..."
> 
> Right now, we sort of have a one-size-fits-all kind of response. But with all these experiments all over the U.S. we will learn what works in the other climates.



I think you put that perfectly, I totally agree with you. They aren't going out of their way to harm the Torts, they are just trying to see what will work best for the torts.


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## Madkins007 (Jun 28, 2011)

This feels like a lot of drama over nothing. The 'experiments' are not aggressive, invasive, or even usually very scientific, but the hearts of the experimenters is almost always in the right place- trying to find a better way to raise tortoises.

I cannot tell you how frustrated I have been trying to find good info for my Red-foots, only to keep running into people saying to do it 'this way' and then discover that the method in question is designed for people in Florida, or large-scale breeders, etc.

We know a lot about raising healthy, happy tortoises- but there is still so much we do not know, so much that good research, experimentation, and more can show. Sure, maybe I wish we could get more controls or standards on things, and I have to admit that I really enjoy the discussions and knowledgeable, respectful debates that many of these generate. 

Do we have a responsibility to casual visitors to be perfectly on-target at all times? I really don't think so. Forums, by their natures, are fast-moving, constantly changing places full of all kinds of mixed stuff. For example- I always suggest to newbies that they post their questions here, but I NEVER suggest they visit to learn the basics of care for their species. That sort of information is best found elsewhere.


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## terryo (Jun 28, 2011)

I NEVER get involved with these angry debates, and I'm sure this one will turn out to be one of them, but I just have to comment on this thread. 
I think this is a ridiculous thread too, and I don't think it has anything to do with the "experiment" at all.......unfortunately.
I notice that groups are starting to form here, and I think it's very sad. Sometimes I read the threads from when the forum just started, and I see how everyone was so friendly and had a common goal. Now, the debate section has turned into a school yard. Remember when you were a little kid, and there were groups in the school yard, each wispering about the other group? Very sad.
I absolutely agree with Maggie and Yvonne's post. I think it's fun to watch the torts grow and see how people are doing things differently in different parts of the country. As long as the tortoises are getting the best care, and they are, what is the harm in calling it an experiment?


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## dmmj (Jun 28, 2011)

So are you upset that hey are being done period? or do you object to the name "experiment". Maybe we could find a more PC term like "non scientific non experimental study"? anyone else got any other ideas?


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## ChiKat (Jun 28, 2011)

IMO these are just people who are raising their tortoises the way they believe is best!
Try to look past the word "experiment" if that is bothering you


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## Lisa Anne (Jun 28, 2011)

I like "trial and error."


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## Mao Senpai (Jun 28, 2011)

terryo said:


> I NEVER get involved with these angry debates, and I'm sure this one will turn out to be one of them, but I just have to comment on this thread.
> I think this is a ridiculous thread too, and I don't think it has anything to do with the "experiment" at all.......unfortunately.
> I notice that groups are starting to form here, and I think it's very sad. Sometimes I read the threads from when the forum just started, and I see how everyone was so friendly and had a common goal. Now, the debate section has turned into a school yard. Remember when you were a little kid, and there were groups in the school yard, each wispering about the other group? Very sad.
> I absolutely agree with Maggie and Yvonne's post. I think it's fun to watch the torts grow and see how people are doing things differently in different parts of the country. As long as the tortoises are getting the best care, and they are, what is the harm in calling it an experiment?



I agree with this. Besides, no one is holding a gun to your head saying you gotta raise your tort this way or it'll be a bad tortoise.


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## Angi (Jun 28, 2011)

The first time I saw the word experiment on a thread I thought" Oh how awful".but after reading a bit about it I found it to be harmless and benificial. I think Tom's experiments are very good. And no I am not a friend of Tom's just someone who has come to respect him. Isn't life about experimenting. I experiment with my children and my dogs. I really don't get scientific results or anything like that, but I think it is good to experiment with what foods they do better on etc...


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## stells (Jun 29, 2011)

I think its crazy that someone has said they like trial and error... yes maybe trial and error is ok when trying a new haircut... but keeping living animals??? you like trial and error then???

I'm afraid you are wrong Terry... its nothing to do with a group... its my opinion on what i feel about it... and as this forum values everyones opinion i thought i would state it...

The thing that bugs me the most about these... is they are posted up straight away... before the person doing the "experiment" knows it is going to work... which potentially could land tortoises in trouble... i did mention that in my original post


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## Jacqui (Jun 29, 2011)

stells said:


> The thing that bugs me the most about these... is they are posted up straight away... before the person doing the "experiment" knows it is going to work... which potentially could land tortoises in trouble... i did mention that in my original post



I like the fact that we are told of these experiments as they are begun and along the way. If gives us thoughts and ideas of things we may not have given thought to and may spark an idea as to where our own keeping is lacking (or exceeding in). Just generally makes us think better keeper in the long run.

If we wait til the end, first off the experimenter may have lost focus along the way or may not keep as well documented as he or she might if these experiments are kept public. I myself would rather be watching the testing unfold, so if it does look promising and sounds like a good idea, I can use the information to tweak my husbandry. You may want to wait for ten years of study before the work is allowed out for all of us to see, but if something is looking good I want to have that better way being applied to my tortoise as soon as possible, so my tortoises life is improved as soon as possible. 

We all pretty much are experimenting every day we keep these unique animals, these folks are just calling it that. Yes they could just say, "This is how I am raising my hatchlings currently...", but they choose to use the term experimenting.

From my experience everything we do could "potentially could land tortoises in trouble". For example showing you keep a water dish in their enclosure. How many hatchlings have drown in a water dish? OR should we not show hides or suggest them, because some tortoises find away to fall off them onto their backs and die before they get righted? Of course not. You can not protect every tortoise from everything. By clearly marking these different attempts at raising these tortoises as experiments, these caretakers are using a term that should point out to folks that these methods are in the testing stage only. 

Sorry Kelly, on this subject I completely disagree with you. Just as in real life, I am happy to hear we have actual humans out there taking experimental drugs and being in experimental studies on a wide range of health issues that may in the future, when the testing is done, improve life for all of us, the same holds true for my tortoises.


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## stells (Jun 29, 2011)

TBH... it doesn't matter to me who agree's... and who doesn't... some do... some don't...

I just wanted to get my opinion out there.. as i really don't understand why people have to state them as "experiments" 

I also agree that things can happen with the day to day keeping of tortoises... but the same could be said about other pets... but you don't see us "experimenting" on our domesticated animals... because that would be seen as cruelty... 

I also as stated before i know that these "experiments" are going to take some time... but if people are truely dedicated to it and weren't so bothered about earning brownie points... the time scale wouldn't be an issue...

As humans we have a mind of our own... and a voice of our own to agree... on being experimented on... but i'm guessing you wouldn't see a typed up report about it when that experiment was ongoing... you would hear about it... but wouldn't have all the data until the experiment had reached its conclusion... 

Thanks for making me think about it all a little more Jacqui... its certainly given me a few idea's


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## yagyujubei (Jun 29, 2011)

exÂ·perÂ·iÂ·mentNOUN 
exÂ·perÂ·iÂ·ments plural 

1. scientific test: a test, especially a scientific one, carried out in order to discover whether a theory is correct or what the results of a particular course of action would be
"a chemistry experiment" 
2. doing something new: an attempt to do something new or to see what will happen
"switching to decaf as an experiment" 
3. use of repeated tests and trials: the use of tests and trials in order to make discoveries
"developed the protocol by experiment" 
INTRANSITIVE VERB 
exÂ·perÂ·iÂ·mentÂ·ed past and past participle 
exÂ·perÂ·iÂ·mentÂ·ing present participle 
exÂ·perÂ·iÂ·ments 3rd person present singular 

1. try new things: to try out new methods of doing or using things
"a reluctance to experiment with new ingredients" 
2. science carry out scientific test: to carry out a scientific test of a theory or process
[ 14th century. Directly or via Old French < Latin experimentum "trial, test" < experiri "try out" ] 
exÂ·perÂ·iÂ·menÂ·taÂ·tion NOUN
exÂ·perÂ·iÂ·mentÂ·er NOUN
Thesaurus
NOUN
Synonyms: trial, test, research, experimentation, tryout
VERB
Synonyms: test, try out, investigate, try, trial
Translations


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## Jacqui (Jun 29, 2011)

stells said:


> ... but the same could be said about other pets... but you don't see us "experimenting" on our domesticated animals... because that would be seen as cruelty...



Interesting, could yo explain this a bit more to me? I think living life is all an experiment. I "experiment" with different types of flea products, every few years I might experiment with a new brand of food, I experiment with different flavors of food, which toy works best with my animals, and the list goes on. How is that seemed as cruel? To me it's a part of life, just with the label of experiment or doing a home trial.

It seems to me, that it is just the term that is really causing all of us problems. I think the term "experiment" carries a lot of negative baggage with it. We visualize Frankenstein or small, cute, defenseless animals in small cages being subjected to cruel, horrible, and painful lives.

No animal is being harmed in these experiments. All care is what they already would be getting in these private homes already. It's just different styles of care. The only difference is we are using the same clutch of tortoises in order to make it more equal. (This is and actually most all specific comments in this post are based on the Tom experiments with the four groups of 3...just to keep things clear)




stells said:


> I also as stated before i know that these "experiments" are going to take some time... but if people are truely dedicated to it and weren't so bothered about earning brownie points... the time scale wouldn't be an issue...



Brownie points, hmmm I would rather have just plain brownies, chewy ones of course. 

Why I guess some folks could do threads on their experiments for brownie points, I honestly do not think that is the case here. To me they are brave. By the virtual fact that they are sharing this information at the start of the experiment and as it progresses, they are setting themselves up to be lowered in the eyes of this group, if an animal dies especially. I think they are brave. I think one reason, besides the wanting to share their lives and what they are doing to test things with these tortoises is just the fact they are so excited. 

To me this is no different then if we (we, because both you and I have dogs), were on a dog forum and I made a thread saying.. "Hey, did you guys see the new type of dog food Brand Zeemeee has out? I got some last week and my dogs seem to like it. Waiting to see, how the food works on Raine's skin issues". Would you think bad of me for publicly, at the very start, letting all of you know I was experimenting on my dogs? With friends you would share small things like that and from the beginning. To me, this forum is one of my families or groups of internet friends if you prefer, so we can share the small things in life as we go along. 



stells said:


> As humans we have a mind of our own... and a voice of our own to agree... on being experimented on



 For the most part yes, but not our young children. Then again, what say so do any of our pets actually have? We have the responsibility to act on their behalf to make choices for them that we deem are or have potential to be in their best interest, which is what these experiments are trying to do. 



stells said:


> ... but i'm guessing you wouldn't see a typed up report about it when that experiment was ongoing... you would hear about it... but wouldn't have all the data until the experiment had reached its conclusion...




If this was a formal or official scientific medical experiment you would actually see articles about the work in progress. You would not see details, just generalities at that time. Folks let the public know what they are doing to validate grants and get more money, get more volunteers to do the studies on, and to just share their enthusiasm. These experiments are not being done in such a formal way. They are designed to be shared with our TFO friends. To get feedback from them along the way. In a way, the members in here our kinda like an ethic committee over seeing each person, which is very much also in the best interest of the tortoise. 



stells said:


> Thanks for making me think about it all a little more Jacqui... its certainly given me a few idea's



That's the whole point, for each of us to take the comments made by the "other side" and try to see where they are coming from. With luck, even if neither side ends up totally agreeing with each other, maybe we can move closer to each others opinion. It is fine for all of us to disagree. Think how boring this place would be, if we were all carbon copies of each other.  Exchanging ideas leads to new ideas and growth in all parties.

I am glad what I wrote made you think, because what you have written certainly has made me think a bit, too. I don't think either of us are going to change our thoughts on this subject, but just the friendly exchange makes sharing our thoughts worthwhile I think.


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## terryo (Jun 29, 2011)

"I guess i am just a person who doesn't feel the need to big myself up by doing such things"


"but if people are truely dedicated to it and weren't so bothered about earning brownie points... the time scale wouldn't be an issue..."

All your posts are credible Kelly, and we all should respect each others opinions and learn from each other, but when you throw things in like these statements, it looks like it is nothing more than a personal issue, and you loose your credibility. IMHO..of course.


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## stells (Jun 29, 2011)

Flea treatments... brands of food... etc have all been tried and tested before they go on the market... so the experimenting has already been done... trying an already tried and testing product is more down to preference of a marketed product... and which you prefer... not experimentation... 

I don't experiment on my children... i have thought about it... but fear the authorities might have something to say about that   Children certainly have rights too... the court case where one divorced her parents springs to mind...

I can do friendly... i think my English dry humour must just come across as wrong to alot of people here  Its certainly easier than a barrage of unfriendly comments which i have fallen victim to in the past...


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## exoticsdr (Jun 29, 2011)

Yag to the rescue! Thank you for the definitions...+1

This is "stir-the-pot" thread if I've ever seen one and for no other reason to try to get under the skin of a well respected member because of the semantics of a posting and the "cherry picking" of the definition of a word to fit a idiotic agenda....but this is just my humble opinion.



yagyujubei said:


> exÂ·perÂ·iÂ·mentNOUN
> exÂ·perÂ·iÂ·ments plural
> 
> 1. scientific test: a test, especially a scientific one, carried out in order to discover whether a theory is correct or what the results of a particular course of action would be
> ...


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## stells (Jun 29, 2011)

Thanks for the constructive use of your views and your insight into this thread...

Most helpful??? 

Nah not really... i expected nothing less from you TBH... 



exoticsdr said:


> Yag to the rescue! Thank you for the definitions...+1
> 
> This is "stir-the-pot" thread if I've ever seen one and for no other reason to try to get under the skin of a well respected member because of the semantics of a posting and the "cherry picking" of the definition of a word to fit a idiotic agenda....but this is just my humble opinion.
> 
> ...


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## Angi (Jun 29, 2011)

Just to make things clear what I concider experimenting on my children is seeing if they do better in school or feel better during the day when they have a whole fruit smoothie everyday for breakfast or taking red dye out of their diet to see if they quit getting head aches. With my dogs I have added the Chinese herbs that I eat to their food. The result I got with this was my Rat Terrier quit chewing on his leg. When I took him off the herbs he started chewing again. So no I am not putting my children at risk or doing things to my dog that the dog food company's have already done. In fact I did not think about it being an experiment until I read your tread. I thought of it as finding ways to make thoughs I love healthier. And when it comes to food I do not trust the goverment or the FDA. I think they are a bunch of crooks that try to get us to eat garbage and are motivated by $$$$$$. Sorry for going off but I felt I had to defend myself as a mother.


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## onarock (Jun 29, 2011)

Doc, you know I love ya man, but I have to respectfully disagree with your comments If your reference to this respected member is who I think it is, then everything must be questioned. Im sure youve been paying attention, like we all have, and I'm sure you read a recent post where this respected member out and out states that certain opinions that he is very passionate about, argued endlessly about, are not his own, based on his own experience, but the opinions of no less than 7 others. You all should have payed close attention to those words and go back and read my threads/posts on the matter. I think you will have a clear understanding of my possision now. Having said all of the above, we should CONTINUE to question everything.

Dont care about Yagyujube's definition.....its not the point of this thread. 

Once again, like my self, I think Kelly is advocating responsability, but because people are assuming that she is referring to this certain member...maybe she is, maybe shes not...people get ruffled. I wonder how many people actually read what is written on these threads and pay attention to it. I think most only care about the feeling of the post, or was someone nice to them, not did if learn something and is this person writing the post legit. They want to be patronized to death and see that this person was probably number 1 or 2 to bump their rating a point after being on the forum for a week.

We will never be able to have an open, honest discussion on this forum about husbandry, husbandry experiments and the like, because there are just too many here that are emotionally invested in to one side of the coin. I have tried many times. Go back and read it all. It starts out civil...with some questions...turns into war.


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## Angi (Jun 29, 2011)

I respect a lot of people on here On a Rock is one of them, Tom Yvonne, Maggie, Kristina, Terry and more have given me and others great imfo and help. Her post just seemed.... um crabby to me. Like she was trying to pick a fight.


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## exoticsdr (Jun 29, 2011)

Rock....you da man, but your coming to the defense of one individual is no different than me coming to the defense of another, we all have those that we respect and those that we don't, so I will leave that alone..for now.

As for Yag's definition, it is exactly the point of this thread and very well brought up. To even assume that anyone (well almost anyone) on this forum is referring to "experiments" as some kind of mad scientist approach to raising tortoises, where the torts are subjected to "evil" doings in order to see if they survive, thrive or benefit is assinine and above MOST members on this forum.

As I said before, this thread is nothing more than a low brow attempt to character assassinate while pretending to look like a concerned patron....poppycock! as they might say.


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## stells (Jun 29, 2011)

You have your views of me... Kelly... Her... She!!!

I know the reasoning for me posting this thread... you don't know me... Paul... who has chatted with me... get its... gets what it is about... but even if he didn't agree with myself... that doesn't mean that i would respect himself and his husbandry any less... 

I haven't posted this thread... and walked away... and watch it explode...thats stirring the pot... i have read replies... i have thought about them... i have replied to people... and have had discussions about it too... 

It seems to me the ones that have to post the kind of replies as you have just done... are the ones that want to stir the pot... and get me to bite...

I guess that barrage if unfriendly comments i was talking about earlier... isn't going to stop anytime soon!!!


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## EricIvins (Jun 29, 2011)

stells said:


> Flea treatments... brands of food... etc have all been tried and tested before they go on the market... so the experimenting has already been done... trying an already tried and testing product is more down to preference of a marketed product... and which you prefer... not experimentation...
> 
> I don't experiment on my children... i have thought about it... but fear the authorities might have something to say about that   Children certainly have rights too... the court case where one divorced her parents springs to mind...
> 
> I can do friendly... i think my English dry humour must just come across as wrong to alot of people here  Its certainly easier than a barrage of unfriendly comments which i have fallen victim to in the past...



Things may be tried and tested in a Lab, but they haven't been tested by me, for me, and the situation(s) I'm in.........Therefore, I'll experiment with something to see if it works for me.......Or my Tortoises for that matter........If you don't like it, I really don't care......I know what either works, or may work for me........That's what matters......


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## Kristina (Jun 29, 2011)

All I will say is this, if me attempting to raise my Sulcatas OUTSIDE in a habitat that is as closely replicated as possible to their natural habitat, to see if I can achieve a steady rate of healthy growth, without artificial lighting, food, heat sources, etc, constitutes animal cruelty, then I guess I better give up tortoise keeping right this instant. 

I could give a crap less about "brownie points." At the end of the day, when I log off this forum I go back to my real world and the things that happen here have not affected it or my tortoises in any negative way whatsoever. Maybe I learned about a new edible plant, or got an idea to research the mean temperatures and average rainfall in the Sahel based on something written by someone else. But that is the extent of it.

I am here on this forum daily for the plain and simple reason that I want to help other people's tortoises. I have never yet heard of an instance where my advice killed someone's tortoise. In fact, I have saved many, both through my advice and by taking in and turning the lives of some that were horribly cared for completely around. I rarely even post about those things. I don't need to. 

I am really sorry that you feel this way about my "experiment." I don't know anyone else that has raised a Sulcata 100% outside from less than two weeks of age (I am sure someone has, but I don't know about it personally,) so unfortunately that is what it is, an experiment. Trying something different. But I am absolutely going to keep doing it and keep posting about it.


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## terryo (Jun 29, 2011)

Kelly, there are a lot of people here that respect you, and look forward to seeing pictures of your tortoises, me included. But, just like people respect you, so do many people respect the person who posts his/her progress with their torts, (known as the experiment). Everyone knows who you're talking about in this thread, and of course there are lots of people who are going to retaliate with some harsh words. If someone posted a thread and everyone knew it was about you, I'm sure there are some of us who would stick up for you in the same way. IMHO, threads like this are what's turning this forum into a two sided school yard. 

"As I said before, this thread is nothing more than a low brow attempt to character assassinate while pretending to look like a concerned patron....poppycock! as they might say."

Unfortunately, there are many people who will agree with this. 

The people involved in this...three of that I know....have always shared their experience and knowledge with everyone on this forum. This is no different that that. They are just sharing with us the way they are raising their tortoises, and doing a beautiful job, I might add.


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## dmmj (Jun 29, 2011)

I have to disagree people experiment on their children all of the time, some people raise them strict other take a more lenient approach, some take the tact in between. Do people who feed their dogs an all natural raw food diet experimenting on them? I don't know if it is recognized or what, are they being cruel to their dogs by doing that? I know of only 3 people on this forum who labeled their thread "experiments" so you are obviously talking about one or all of them. Come on out and say who you are taking about so we don't have to hint around anymore. And personally I don't think any of them are doing this for "brownie points" they are simply offering a different way of raising tortoises then has been previously done. Tortoise husbandry changes all of the time, remember rabbit pellets good for tortoises to live on, now most people don't think that anymore. Did experimenting with different substrates change this? was it bad? I remember when I first got into tortoise keeping most people thought " you don't need to give them water, they get all of their water from their food" most people don't believe that anymore, did experimenting change this? 
I could go on and on about how tortoise husbandry changes over the years but I won't bore you guys with that. Our current ideas about tortoise care would not have changed if people did not think differently and do experiments.


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## Tom (Jun 29, 2011)

Sorry I have not had the time to get involved in this thread until now. Jacqui has expressed my opinions better and more tactfully than I am capable of. I also appreciate and understand all the points of view expressed here.

Kelly, I keep telling you that I like that you question things. I also respect your opinion and think that your Greeks are very attractive and very well raised. But each time you ask me these questions, and I try to answer honestly and earnestly, it degenerates in to name calling and anger. I just don't see the point in arguing over it again. I'm only doing what I believe to be the best things for my tortoises, based on what I've seen and learned, and sharing it with my friends and family here on the forum. Other people have already done all the things I'm doing, I'm just re-doing it and sharing it, every step of the way, with my tortoise friends here on the forum. You've seen the results. Do you really think any harm has come to Tuck or Trey? I wish I could find a way to get you to share my enthusiasm instead of it bothering you so much. I mean seriously, look at all the smooth sulcatas and leopards we see on this forum all the time now! Don't misunderstand. I'm not taking credit for all of that, but I AM very happy about it. I don't think it needs to be an emo love fest everyday, but we all share a common interest here and frankly, I'd like to see an end to all the fighting. I do share the opinion that some of your comments are inflammatory, although I am NOT inflamed. I too could care less about "brownie points" or "bigging myself up" and I'm sorry you see it that way. It was very nice of each those people to give me a rep point and say something nice, but if Josh deleted the entire rep point system, post number, join date, stars, colors, titles and all that stuff, NOTHING would change about what I post, what I do everyday, and how obsessed I am with ending pyramiding. NOTHING.

Paul, I've grown so weary of your attempts to discredit me. Its laughable and pitiful. Don't you talk tortoises with other tortoise people? Isn't that what all of us do here on the forum? Just because I like to talk tortoises with tortoise people does not mean that I know nothing about tortoises and don't have my own experienced based opinions. Because I shared the uncensored opinions of a few tortoise people that I respect, does not mean I am incapable of thinking for myself as you are suggesting. Good lord man, if you think so little of me then why do you care what I say or think? Just skip it. Really dude, find another obsession. Its over Paul, I just don't love you anymore. You are going to have to pick yourself and find someone new. Come on. There are plenty of fish in the sea. You'll probably be able to find someone even BETTER than me...


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## stells (Jun 29, 2011)

I'll make this my last post on the thread... so the barrage can continue...

People can say what they like... they can think what they like about this thread... the PM's of support i have had... has shown me that some people... think the exact same thing... and are glad someone has posted it...

Don't you find it sad... that they can't actually post it themselves... because of the flack they will get... because they feel that only one opinion is allowed... because... i do...

At the end of the day... its not about all the people that think it is about them... its about the tortoises!!!


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## exoticsdr (Jun 29, 2011)

Sorry, but you play the victim so well...too bad you do it EVERY time someone calls you out on the carpet to take responsibility for your comments (barrages).... my barrage is over.



stells said:


> I'll make this my last post on the thread... so the barrage can continue...
> 
> People can say what they like... they can think what they like about this thread... the PM's of support i have had... has shown me that some people... think the exact same thing... and are glad someone has posted it...
> 
> ...


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## onarock (Jun 29, 2011)

Tom, Im just waiting for someone to pop up who argues a point to no end, who bases his/her opinions on supposed experience and then comes out and says that his/her opinion is actually based on the opinions of others and not their own experience. I only know 1 person on this forum that fits that descripion. YOU! Someone who posts generalizatons on subjects and the second anyone disagrees, comes flying out with 20+, 25+, wait for it...30+ years of experience to back themself up. (just look what you did to Mick - Arizona Tortoise Compound on your Leopard Tortoise Poll thread). Someone who posts the opinion of five fictional characters and 2 people with a pulse as some sort of proof to discredit or invalidate forum members. If those 5 fictional characters want to speak for themselves its www.tortoiseforum.org, we would be happy to have them. People have read my stuff and I stand by it 100%, they have also read yours. You and others said I was CRAZY for going back and reading your posts....really. I no longer have to tell others to read your long ago history, the..., Are Leopard Tortoises Shy Poll - thread is less than a week old. Anyone can read it. You shot yourself in the foot and MANY, MANY people saw it. You might want to re-think that firearms course your taking, its not helping. 

Weary of my attempt to discredit... you did that one all on your own, Buddy...and I was watching. You just keep doing what your good at. Holding the door open on TFO. Welcoming all the newbies handing out Locale Specific care sheets and giving +1 ratings to anyone who walks through the TFO door with a pulse. "Let me get that door for ya sir, welcome to TFO, my name is Tom, here is a copy of my care sheet, your reputation points from me should show in a week."

Thats my .02 cents on the matter, you can keep it as a tip Tom, thanks for getting the door.


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## dmarcus (Jun 29, 2011)

This is really getting ridicules, why do we constantly have to read about someone's dislike for other members on this forum. I always try to be respectful when posting on a thread because I don't want to get attacked because someone does not like what I said or disagrees with me and I am getting tired of it. 

We are all here to learn from each other and to help other who asks for it. Everyone should be allowed to give there suggestions on what might work or things to try without getting called names or other bad things. We are all adults and we need to remember that we have kids on this forum and we are always getting new members and why should they be subjected to all this pettiness that we have been seeing over the past few weeks?

If you donâ€™t like or agree with what someone has to say, stop posting on the particular thread or just handle it like adults and send them a PM so that your disagreement does not involve everyone else. 

I LOVE THIS FORUM, BUT I HATE ALWAYS HAVING TO READ ALL THE NEGATIVE COMMENTS AND PERSONAL ATTACKS THAT ARE GOING ON RIGHT NOW!!


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## Yvonne G (Jun 29, 2011)

Tom: Please let him have the last word. It won't hurt.


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## dmmj (Jun 29, 2011)

dalano73 said:


> This is really getting ridicules, why do we constantly have to read about someone's dislike for other members on this forum. I always try to be respectful when posting on a thread because I don't want to get attacked because someone does not like what I said or disagrees with me and I am getting tired of it.
> 
> We are all here to learn from each other and to help other who asks for it. Everyone should be allowed to give there suggestions on what might work or things to try without getting called names or other bad things. We are all adults and we need to remember that we have kids on this forum and we are always getting new members and why should they be subjected to all this pettiness that we have been seeing over the past few weeks?
> 
> ...


+ 1


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## Candy (Jun 29, 2011)

Wow I haven't been on this forum very much lately and now I'm reminded of why that is. You guys are mean with your cutting comments. Stells posted a thread and all you can do is put her down for it. Why can't we have a few posts about discussing why she feels this way instead of attacking her? Why can't we all just post information about why we feel this would or would not be good to do? If you already know that you're going to just insult someone then why do you get onto her thread to begin with? She has her own opinion and has her own reasoning why she feels this way. This is probably the reason that the number one respected person on this forum doesn't come around much anymore.  How sad.


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## Jacqui (Jun 29, 2011)

stells said:


> Flea treatments... brands of food... etc have all been tried and tested before they go on the market... so the experimenting has already been done... trying an already tried and testing product is more down to preference of a marketed product... and which you prefer... not experimentation...
> 
> I don't experiment on my children... i have thought about it... but fear the authorities might have something to say about that   Children certainly have rights too... the court case where one divorced her parents springs to mind...
> 
> I can do friendly... i think my English dry humour must just come across as wrong to alot of people here  Its certainly easier than a barrage of unfriendly comments which i have fallen victim to in the past...


The things we are trying in these experiments has also been done. All we are doing are applying what we normally would do and seeing how it compares to another member in another part of the country.

LOL your right about the humor problem between our two countries. Very few in the UK ever understand my humor either. 

P.S. just got on for the first time since I posted this morning, so if this is just repeating what others have sad sorry. I am posting as I read the thread. 





Angi said:


> Just to make things clear what I concider experimenting on my children is seeing if they do better in school or feel better during the day when they have a whole fruit smoothie everyday for breakfast or taking red dye out of their diet to see if they quit getting head aches. With my dogs I have added the Chinese herbs that I eat to their food. The result I got with this was my Rat Terrier quit chewing on his leg. When I took him off the herbs he started chewing again. So no I am not putting my children at risk or doing things to my dog that the dog food company's have already done. In fact I did not think about it being an experiment until I read your tread. I thought of it as finding ways to make thoughs I love healthier. And when it comes to food I do not trust the goverment or the FDA. I think they are a bunch of crooks that try to get us to eat garbage and are motivated by $$$$$$. Sorry for going off but I felt I had to defend myself as a mother.


Interesting, what herbs did you try? Sorry for taking this thread a bit off topic, but I am really interested as I try to use herbs for medicating tortoises and turtles.





EricIvins said:


> stells said:
> 
> 
> > Flea treatments... brands of food... etc have all been tried and tested before they go on the market... so the experimenting has already been done... trying an already tried and testing product is more down to preference of a marketed product... and which you prefer... not experimentation...
> ...



Exactly! 





dalano73 said:


> This is really getting ridicules, why do we constantly have to read about someone's dislike for other members on this forum. I always try to be respectful when posting on a thread because I don't want to get attacked because someone does not like what I said or disagrees with me and I am getting tired of it.
> 
> We are all here to learn from each other and to help other who asks for it. Everyone should be allowed to give there suggestions on what might work or things to try without getting called names or other bad things. We are all adults and we need to remember that we have kids on this forum and we are always getting new members and why should they be subjected to all this pettiness that we have been seeing over the past few weeks?
> 
> ...



Now this is a must read post! I hope all of you read this and take it to heart.



Like I said, I have been gone all day and I will admit I am saddened and disappoint in just about all of you who posted in this thread. It went from a discussion of experiments back to the usual of late battle between two sides.   How about all of you stop reading who the writer of the post is and just give your response as tho it's your best friend who posted each and every comment? This kind of response that we have been doing of late is not helping anybody nor any tortoise. If you can't keep in your minds why we are all here, please do everybody a favor and go away from the forum for awhile. *shaking my head at this behavior once more today* 

Also as a mod tho I would love to go back and delete about half of these posts, I will not. However from this point on, ANY negative comments directed at another member, WILL be deleted as soon as I see them.


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## Angi (Jun 30, 2011)

@ Jacqui~Coix Lacyma-Jobi seed, Chinese Yam Root, Euryale Ferox ( Fox Nut) Seed, Nelumbo Nucifera (lotus) Seed, Nelumbo Nucifera ( Lotus) Root, Lilium Browni (Water Lily) Bulb and Imperata Root. It is a Sunrider consintrated herbal food. I eat it. It is not medicinal but rejuvination. Giving your body the food so the it can rejuvinate. I believe so many of the foods we eat today are depleated of the nutitional value that our bodies can not do what they are intended to do.
With my rat terrier he chewed on his leg because it itched I think. I tried badaging it (he chewed them off), I tried Niosporin (he licked it off then threw up) finally I gave hem my herbs and it went away. I took him off it it came back. Everytime I quit giving it to him his leg becomes raw and bloody. I have not given this to my torts. I do not know enough about torts to experiment with untried foods.


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## Mao Senpai (Jun 30, 2011)

dalano73 said:


> This is really getting ridicules, why do we constantly have to read about someone's dislike for other members on this forum. I always try to be respectful when posting on a thread because I don't want to get attacked because someone does not like what I said or disagrees with me and I am getting tired of it.
> 
> We are all here to learn from each other and to help other who asks for it. Everyone should be allowed to give there suggestions on what might work or things to try without getting called names or other bad things. We are all adults and we need to remember that we have kids on this forum and we are always getting new members and why should they be subjected to all this pettiness that we have been seeing over the past few weeks?
> 
> ...



+1

You know who you are....


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## Madkins007 (Jun 30, 2011)

stells said:


> I'll make this my last post on the thread... so the barrage can continue...
> 
> People can say what they like... they can think what they like about this thread... the PM's of support i have had... has shown me that some people... think the exact same thing... and are glad someone has posted it...
> 
> ...




Oddly enough, this is why I do not go to a couple other popular tortoise and reptile sites- there are 'cultures' there that one dares not disturb. There are people you should not cross, there are opinions you should not express, and there are methods and practices that you should not question.

The even more odd thing is... I would bet that most of the people on those other sites would say that it is not happening. I would bet that they think they are being warm, helpful, and open-minded.


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## Watermelon (Jun 30, 2011)

I find it interesting when people post their experiments before/during results, its got more of a tortoise friendly feel to it rather than reading it from a research paper.

I'm a 'newbie', I've read the before experiment posts and because I have half a brain I wouldn't try the method on my tortoise before the results came out. Simples.

If anyone does and it goes wrong then its their fault for being stupid. Maybe they need to look up the word experiment!

Sorry for being moany but I don't see problem.


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## harris (Jun 30, 2011)

I dated a Moany once. Or maybe it was Moana.
Love the avatar.


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## Watermelon (Jun 30, 2011)

If that was to me thank you, its the turtle dog from TAZ <3


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## Kristina (Jun 30, 2011)

Candy said:


> Wow I haven't been on this forum very much lately and now I'm reminded of why that is. You guys are mean with your cutting comments. Stells posted a thread and all you can do is put her down for it. Why can't we have a few posts about discussing why she feels this way instead of attacking her? Why can't we all just post information about why we feel this would or would not be good to do? If you already know that you're going to just insult someone then why do you get onto her thread to begin with? She has her own opinion and has her own reasoning why she feels this way. This is probably the reason that the number one respected person on this forum doesn't come around much anymore.  How sad.



(speaking as myself, NOT as a moderator)

Just to be clear, it was okay for ME to be insulted and have MY feelings hurt by basically being called an abuser, and that how I take care of my tortoises constitutes animal cruelty, but it was NOT okay for me to defend myself or to disagree with the original post? I did no name calling or bashing. I simply posted my thoughts and opinions. 

I am angry. I take great care of my tortoises, and to be told that what I am doing is animal cruelty ****** me off. 

So you don't consider being called an abuser as putting someone down? I find that really interesting.


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## John (Jun 30, 2011)

LOL.......Is this still going on, Page four of war! I have to say I found the "forced to read it " comments amusing..........would seem more like curiousity killed the cat to me.....I mean me personally, I don't read anything I don't find interesting, and on the occasion I mistakenly do there is no sleep lost over it.

Okay thats all I got you can continue waring now.


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## Angi (Jun 30, 2011)

@ Kristina~ I have not seen your tread about keeping Sulcattas out side all year long. I would be interested in reading it. Can you please post a link. No I am not going to do it just because you do nor am I going to critisize something that you feel is working. This has just made me very interested to read it and I can't imagine how I missed something that so many others have seen.

Thanks


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## Kristina (Jun 30, 2011)

Sure thing - http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Experiment-5-putting-an-end-to-pyramiding#axzz1Qnt9t7tu


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