# STUDBOOKS



## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 21, 2015)

Many refer to a "studbook" and then reference a number, etc. Exactly what is the purpose of a studbook, who keeps it, etc.?


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## Yvonne G (Aug 21, 2015)

A studbook documents previous ownership and history of the animal. For me it's helpful in knowing I'm not buying a closely related animal to my own (when buying for breeding purposes).

In the case of the Manouria stud book, it is kept by a curator at a zoo. (can't remember his name without looking it up)


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 21, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> A studbook documents previous ownership and history of the animal.



~ Who keeps the book and how does it prove previous ownership and accurate history of a certain tortoise?


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 21, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> In the case of the Manouria stud book, it is kept by a curator at a zoo.



~ Is there one studbook for this species kept in the USA or one kept by each breeder?


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 21, 2015)

~ Who assigns a specific number to an animal and how do they track that number or positively associate that number to a specific tortoise?


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## Yvonne G (Aug 21, 2015)

My Manouria stud book record is kept by Craig Pelke of the San Antonio zoo. When I hatch out my baby Manouria I send him a note telling him the sire and dam (who are both listed in the book) and how many babies. As each baby is sold, I then send him a note advising him of the new owner. My Manouria are traced back 4 generations on the captive bred animals, and two generations on the wild caught animals.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 21, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> When I hatch out my baby Manouria I send him a note telling him the sire and dam (who are both listed in the book) and how many babies.



~ So it is basically a system to keep track of captive produced numbers of a certain species within the USA?


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 21, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> When I hatch out my baby



~ Are they given a tracking or identification number?


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## Yvonne G (Aug 21, 2015)

Not all species have a stud book, but the U.S. Manouria stud book that I have is the only one for the U.S. Craig, or his minions, assign the numbers to each animal. For instance, in the studbook, my captive bred Manouria phayrei, Phae, was hatched at the Honolulu zoo in July of '83. She has gone through three previous owners before coming to me, and the dates of each transfer is listed in the book. She is assigned a number, and when I list her offspring, I tell them that number.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 21, 2015)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> ~ So it is basically a system to keep track of captive produced numbers of a certain species within the USA?



Yes


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 21, 2015)

~ Several breeders have inquired about some of our near adult radiated population and always ask for a studbook number. This seems to be a vital reference to them.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 21, 2015)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> ~ Are they given a tracking or identification number?



When I first send the info that I hatched x number of eggs, they are in limbo, but as I inform them of a new owner, then that baby is assigned a number and a new owner.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 21, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> assign the numbers to each animal.



~ Ok, this number is for what purpose? population? How do you verify or associate this number to a certain tortoise?


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## Yvonne G (Aug 21, 2015)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> ~ Several breeders have inquired about some of our near adult radiated population and always ask for a studbook number. This seems to be a vital reference to them.



In my opinion, it makes the animal a little more valuable.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 21, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> In my opinion, it makes the animal a little more valuable.



~ Ok, what check and balance system is used to verify if that tortoise is (ex. #1000 by # 443 & # 552)?


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## dmmj (Aug 21, 2015)

stud book is that the sequel to 50 shades of grey?


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## Yvonne G (Aug 21, 2015)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> ~ Ok, this number is for what purpose? population? How do you verify or associate this number to a certain tortoise?



It's just like naming the animal. They've changed the numbers on the new studbook, and I have the old book here in front of me, so I'll use the old number. 

For my female, Phae, her number is 147. Just like I know her name is Phae (and you know your tortoise's name is Cowboy), I know that her studbook number is 147. So if I tell someone she's in the studbook, #147, they can find that number in the book and see her history. The number is merely a record-keeping thing.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 21, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> It's just like naming the animal. They've changed the numbers on the new studbook, and I have the old book here in front of me, so I'll use the old number.
> 
> For my female, Phae, her number is 147. Just like I know her name is Phae (and you know your tortoise's name is Cowboy), I know that her studbook number is 147. So if I tell someone she's in the studbook, #147, they can find that number in the book and see her history. The number is merely a record-keeping thing.



~ Ok, so basically this entire tracking system is voluntary and verified by word of mouth and reputation?


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## Yvonne G (Aug 21, 2015)

Well, the stud book says that tortoise #1000 belongs to Joe the Plumber, so if a person is saying he has animal #1000, then he must be Joe the Plumber and probably has the identification to prove who he is. I suppose eventually we will all have pit tags in our tortoises for further identification.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 21, 2015)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> ~ OK, so basically this entire tracking system is voluntary and verified by word of mouth?



I suppose that's correct, yes. @Will used to keep the stud book for (I think) pig nose turtles. He would be a good person to talk to about stud books.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 21, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> Well, the stud book says that tortoise #1000 belongs to Joe the Plumber, so if a person is saying he has animal #1000, then he must be Joe the Plumber and probably has the identification to prove who he is. I suppose eventually we will all have pit tags in our tortoises for further identification.



~ Interesting!


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## Yvonne G (Aug 21, 2015)

If you wanted to add your radiata to the studbook, you would try to find out as much info on previous ownership as you could, then contact the studbook keeper with the info. Your tortoises would be assigned a number and you go from there.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 21, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> ~



~ Thank you!


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 21, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> If you wanted to add your radiata to the studbook, you would try to find out as much info on previous ownership as you could, then contact the studbook keeper with the info. Your tortoises would be assigned a number and you go from there.



~ Actually many of ours are recorded. After a long conversation a few days ago with another serious tortoise keeper simply made me start to wonder about this studbook that seems so important. What a perfect example of the many values of TFO and it's many diverse and knowledgeable members!


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## Yvonne G (Aug 21, 2015)

Yes, I love that now my tortoise info is centrally located!!!!! Once in a great while I'll still google something, but I get most of my info right here. We have some VERY knowledgeable folks here.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 21, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> When I hatch out my baby // I send him a note telling him the sire and dam (who are both listed in the book) and how many babies. As each baby is sold, I then send him a note advising him of the new owner.



~ That would be time consuming for us, and truly I feel that is privileged information. Many folks would not want there name, address, etc. documented!


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## Yvonne G (Aug 21, 2015)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> ~ That would be time consuming for us, and truly I feel that is privileged information. Many folks would not want there name, address, etc. documented!



Well, naturally, you have to ask them if they want their new baby in the stud book. I would never do it without consent.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 21, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> We have some VERY knowledgeable folks here.



~ I so agree, I try and get every aldabra customer, owner, etc. that i have any contact with to join TFO, unfortunately many do not and some join but never participate and simply read.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 21, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> Well, naturally, you have to ask them if they want their new baby in the stud book. I would never do it without consent.



~ I actually like the whole studbook concept, especially for rare, etc. species!


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 21, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> stud book



~ Does a studbook exist for the Galapagos tortoises, I know of six sources that are that are producing them now in the USA!


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## Yvonne G (Aug 21, 2015)

I don't know. I know the San Diego Zoo is doing mitocondrial (SP??) DNA testing to determine where theirs come from. I'd like to get my two Aldabs into a studbook, but I don't know if there even is one.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 21, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> I'd like to get my two Aldabs into a studbook, but I don't know if there even is one.



~ I have never heard of one!


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## Yvonne G (Aug 21, 2015)

There might be an article in here about a Galapagos stud book and Rick Hudson:

http://www.turtlesurvival.org/storage/documents/magazines/2011_Magazine.pdf

I know Europe has Galop studbooks.


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## Alaskamike (Aug 22, 2015)

Interesting concept - stud books. 
When I got my Aldabra from you Greg , I started a book for her. Mainly to document her life and to pass on to next person who cares for her after me ( & maybe a generation after that !). Not a stud book , but a history book. 
Wouldn't it have been interesting if you had detailed information on Cowboy like that - how he was imported , who did it , where they found him , each person in his life till he got to you. That would be fascinating stuff.


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## Merrick (Aug 22, 2015)

Stud books are great in my opinion they tell who is related to who to make the most out of a dieing species


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## keepergale (Aug 22, 2015)

Stud books were started in the zoo community to track the genetics of a given species. (and individuals) the stud books kind of go hand in hand with the SSP Species Survival Plan. The SSP usually both tracks and projects a given species to plan for maximum genetic diversity. They used to try and plan for 100 years ahead. Stud book "teams" meet and breeding suggestions are made to the zoo's that hold the animals. This creates a surprising amount of animal shipment around the country. Another side effect is many breeding individuals are stopped from further breeding due to being over represented.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 22, 2015)

keepergale said:


> Stud books were started in the zoo community to track the genetics of a given species. (and individuals) the stud books kind of go hand in hand with the SSP Species Survival Plan. The SSP usually both tracks and projects a given species to plan for maximum genetic diversity. They used to try and plan for 100 years ahead. Stud book "teams" meet and breeding suggestions are made to the zoo's that hold the animals. This creates a surprising amount of animal shipment around the country. Another side effect is many breeding individuals are stopped from further breeding due to being over represented.




Yes. A couple years ago I was contacted by the studbook folks wanting to know if I would agree to shipping my female off to another Manouria keeper as our two tortoises were genetically different enough to breed. This other keeper had never had any breeding experience, and I had had several nestings and successful hatchings, so I wrote back that I would be happy to host the other person's male here with my female, but not the other way around. I never heard back from them.


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## keepergale (Aug 22, 2015)

Coming from the zoo side of the program I was bothered by the "zoo" attitude that animals should be kept out of the private sector. Crazy since most breeding and husbandry advances came from regular individuals.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 22, 2015)

Alaskamike said:


> Interesting concept - stud books.
> When I got my Aldabra from you Greg , I started a book for her. Mainly to document her life and to pass on to next person who cares for her after me ( & maybe a generation after that !). Not a stud book , but a history book.
> Wouldn't it have been interesting if you had detailed information on Cowboy like that - how he was imported , who did it , where they found him , each person in his life till he got to you. That would be fascinating stuff.



~ That would be awesome, I have some of his history not nothing past a few decades!


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 22, 2015)

keepergale said:


> Crazy since most breeding and husbandry advances came from regular individuals.



~ Spot on!


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## CharlieM (Aug 23, 2015)

Are any studbook tortoises microchipped as a way to positively ID them?


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 23, 2015)

What a big bunch of single sentence questions.

Studbooks in North America are maintained through the American Zoo Association in cooperation with a global effort to monitor the breeding and movement of animals in the IUCN Captive Breeding Specialist Group or some other equally musical name of a committee of people interested in maintaining captive gene diversity with the limited resource of Zoo Space. Many. not all animals in studbook are 'permanently' marked with tattoos, bands, or PIT tags, many animals have such unique individual pattern of color that just a photo will work..

There is usually one studbook keeper for a species or in some cases a genus. There is special software to track all of it, at one time called SPARKS, some species have associated Population Management Plans PMP and other have corresponding active conservation programs and tend to be species with good appeal, they are in an SSP species Survival Plan which often incorporate a in the wild component. 

The studbook keeper collates data collected from everyone who has the species, and basically has to believe what they are told, some zoos have rocket science quality data others, not so much so. Then this when this data is collected it will include Founder Animals, these are individuals that came from the wild, they are founders of the captive population. Their first offspring (cohort) are F1, founders plus one generation. This goes on with F2, F3 etc.

Many animals in a studbook may never breed or contribute offspring, they are still valuable individuals, but not for breeding, so a studbook is accomplishing a few things, it's a registry as well, just a big list of animals in that species in a the geographic area of concern. Even after an animal dies it's identity will be maintained in the studbook.

Some animals will be listed as having both multiple Paternity and Maternity. Say, for example you are a group of @ALDABRAMAN tortoises, and there are 3 males and five females, You find some neonates walking around one day-what to do? You list all the males and all the females as possible parents. Say one of those neonates is sold, and the person says they don't care about the studbook. Ten years later they sell that tortoise and the new owner learns it came from ALDABRAMAN and hatched in 2013. The first entry the studbook keeper would have entered into SPARKS would be LTF, for all the individuals that Greg sold that year, but the customers did not care to participate in the studbook. Those would be given a studbook number, and the designation LTF. So that new customer gets in contact with the studbook keeper and says they have a 2013 tortoise from Greg. The studbook keeper would then assign the next in sequence LTF number to that tortoise, and back into that animal's record that the male and female that produced it were any of all the adult viable animals in the heard from 2013.

Just to drive you crazy, rumor has it at least some collections of cyclura lizards that had been PIT tag, had tags removed and put into other individuals, to create something, I don't know what, but a careful scrutiny of other records and an inquiring vet sorted it out. That vet then implanted the PIT tags into the femur of some other large lizards thereafter. 

As @keepergale mentioned much of the decision making is done by committees of people who offer different expertise. The actual studbook keeping work itself is an often not so rewarding headache of a task. 

There are populations of animals that are not in PMPs and then the studbook keeper gets tasked with requests from zoo curators to reach out and ask about moving this animal or that. @HermanniChris keeps a studbook for his site specific Hermann's tortoises, I would like to hear about his management system.


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## Anthony P (Aug 25, 2015)

We'd love to answer questions about Chris' studbook. He and Steve have worked so hard on it, and in it's third year, tons of kinks have already been worked out.

One thing that makes Chirs' studbook possible is the genetic and locality data he has compiled on each group he has. All are separated and a lot of care has to be taken not to let things get jumbled up. This is why a lot of what has happened in captivity with Galapagos Tortoises is difficult to make sense of. Many of those tortoises are of muddied lineage. It's tough to have an animal as part of a conservation effort without knowing the exact lineage.

We are involved in roughly 10 studbooks and SSPs. I can tell you, each one is different. Some keepers of books are very wary of working with the private sector, while others bend over backwards to collaborate with private hobbyists. The radiata keeper is an example of a super collaborative person, but that book is very large and might not be listing new founders. Worth looking into, but don't hold your breath, simply because it already has like 2000 animals. Let me know if you need his contact info.

Ant


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 26, 2015)

Anthony P said:


> We'd love to answer questions about Chris' studbook. He and Steve have worked so hard on it, and in it's third year, tons of kinks have already been worked out.
> 
> One thing that makes Chirs' studbook possible is the genetic and locality data he has compiled on each group he has. All are separated and a lot of care has to be taken not to let things get jumbled up. This is why a lot of what has happened in captivity with Galapagos Tortoises is difficult to make sense of. Many of those tortoises are of muddied lineage. It's tough to have an animal as part of a conservation effort without knowing the exact lineage.
> 
> ...


So, there's an AZA Hermann's studbook? Glad to hear you'll are working with both the easy going and intractable studbook keepers in the AZA. Tell us about the one you are running via Chris, please.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Sep 7, 2015)

Thanks all. A very interesting and informative thread.


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