# Urates - how much is too much?



## siwash (Dec 6, 2009)

I have a 1 1/2 year old Hermann Tort. He seems to be discharging more urates over the past few months... Could this indicate dehydration? 

I see it at least once per week and often 2 times.. I've even noticed it happening on consecutive days.. two to three..

About a month ago I could beleive how much came out.. more than a 1/2 teaspoon..


Should I be concerned ?

thanks..


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## alfiethetortoise (Dec 6, 2009)

I also have a herman, hatchin in May 2008 so probably around the same age as your tort...

Anyway, she tends to go 2-3 times a week, usually when she is bathed. There seems to be quite a lot of liquid. If i haven't bathed her, she will take herself to her waterbowl for a dip and go then.

I would say that is about right, and that a sign of dehydration would be your tortoise not doing it as much. Alfie drinks every time she is bathed,and i have caught her having a drink in between the bathings. So she is def getting enough water. So i wouldn't worry too much about your tortoise in my oppinion, but i'd wait for someone with more 'tortoise credibility' on the forum to clarify this as i'm fairly new to all this myself!


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## siwash (Dec 6, 2009)

Thank you.. i thought that too much urates = dehydration...


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## Isa (Dec 6, 2009)

Does your little one have a humid hide? or a humid substrate?


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## bettinge (Dec 6, 2009)

siwash said:


> Thank you.. i thought that too much urates = dehydration...



Too much/frequent urates is not a problem. Thick, gritty, sandy and too infrequent urates are more a sign of dehydration.


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## sammi (Dec 6, 2009)

Hmmm..My Russian, Ernie, excretes urates pretty much everyday, or every other day. Is this bad? I thought it was normal to happen on a daily basis? He used to have a dry skin problem, and I knew he was dehydrated then, but since that time I have changed his substrate and covered half of his enclosure, put in moss, and fake plants, and his dry skin went away, and humidity went up.


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## siwash (Dec 6, 2009)

bettinge said:


> siwash said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you.. i thought that too much urates = dehydration...
> ...



Actually, come to think of it, some of his urates have been thick/gritty.. almost thin, but solid discharge... like thin, white poop..

today's episode was more on the liquid side...


I spray/mist his hide at least once a week... but our house is very dry as it gets cold here in toronto and the furnace is on all day... haven't checked lately but humidity is no more than 40% in the enclosure..


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## tortoisenerd (Dec 6, 2009)

siwash-That sounds like a normal frequency, and the grittiness is the only slightly worrisome part. My tortoises urates are typically gritty/solid, and what ever I do I can't seem to change that. He seems very well hydrated as he goes in his water on his own, plus I soak him, eats moist greens, I have cut back on oxalic acid containing foods, and he urinates on a regular frequency. That is my example of how my tortoise has gritty urates yet I am not so worried about it. 

The humidity is not so much related to hydration, although important for general health and pyramiding prevention (although Hermanns are not very prone to pyramiding). Do you use a moist or dry substrate? If it a moist one, by adding water more often you should be able to increase the humidity. Are you measuring at the substrate level in the enclosure, or ambient such as on the enclosure wall? That makes a huge difference.

Betts-I disagree and think too frequent can also be a problem.

Sammi-Every day may be too often. What are you feeding? A lot of oxalic acid containing foods (such as dandelion/collard/mustard greens)? Are they gritty?


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## siwash (Dec 6, 2009)

My little guy has pyramided a fair bit.. Not major but it seems like it might be getting somewhat worse.. I guess u is lacking hydration... 

It's tough to keep it moist.. need to remember more often.

Can pyramiding be reversed?


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## sammi (Dec 6, 2009)

Kate - I've been rotating greens, every week to every week and a half, but coincidentally this weeks menu does consist of collard greens [with radicchio]. However they aren't gritty at all..

Siwash - After pyramiding has started, it CAN be stopped. However it CANNOT be REVERSED.


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## Madkins007 (Dec 6, 2009)

One test of dehydration is the Donoghue Ratio (per Mike Pingleton "Redfoot Manual" etc.):

Length (in centimeters), cubed, times 0.191 equals expected minimum weight in grams.


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## tortoisenerd (Dec 6, 2009)

siwash-You cannot reverse pyramiding but you can make sure all future growth is smooth. If you are forgetting to moisten and mix up the substrate, you can write yourself a reminder or set a phone alarm or similar. Also examine the diet and if the tortoise has enough area to exercise as those are other secondary causes. The diet seems to be a more common pyramiding cause in tortoise breeds that are typically not as prone to pyramiding (such as Greeks, Hermanns, Russians).

Sammi-The foods over time are what matters. As long as overall you are limiting oxalic acid that could be fine. I like to have spring mix as a base and then add to it to get the maximum amount of variety. For example, radicchio would be in the spring mix along with 5+ other greens, then I would add a rotation of 1-2 more. I would never buy a head of radicchio as it has a low calcium to phosphorus ratio and isn't as good of a choice. More of a "junk" food although better than others. Glad hey aren't gritty, but that is still curious.

Madkins-How does that test dehydration? Is the "expected minimum weight" of the tortoise? Wouldn't that just tell me if the tortoise is underweight/overweight for the SCL? I read in this post you said it is for all species but not as accurate for small tortoises: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-10321-post-91434.html#pid91434 How? Each tortoise has a different type of shell shape and carries their weight differently--more domed vs. more flat, etc. Too bad I don't have the book. I find it hard to believe that one curve fit of data is accurate for "all" tortoise breeds.


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## Madkins007 (Dec 7, 2009)

tortoisenerd said:


> Madkins-How does that test dehydration? Is the "expected minimum weight" of the tortoise? Wouldn't that just tell me if the tortoise is underweight/overweight for the SCL? I read in this post you said it is for all species but not as accurate for small tortoises: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-10321-post-91434.html#pid91434 How? Each tortoise has a different type of shell shape and carries their weight differently--more domed vs. more flat, etc. Too bad I don't have the book. I find it hard to believe that one curve fit of data is accurate for "all" tortoise breeds.



The most common reason for being underweight is dehydration- that applies to most animals including humans. Water accounts for much of your weight.

Mike Pingleton, where I found it, says that it does not seem quite as accurate for hatchlings. I have not found Susan Donoghue's original articles, but the formula was crafted to work on all tortoises with decent accuracy. I suspect that the SCL is used because it would yield more consistent results than CCL would. After all- under the curve of the shell is mostly lung tissue, so the doming would not affect the ratio that much.

You are free to look her up on your own. Googling 'Susan Donoghue' and tortoise or tortoise weight reveals hundreds of citations of things she has written. She is a well-respected expert in reptile nutrition.


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