# Help (Where to buy indoor enclosure?)



## John Alford (Oct 27, 2017)

Hello, I’m looking to get a Mediterranean spur thighed tortoise and I was wondering if anyone could give me some tips and information as to which cage I should buy it

I know they aren’t kept in a cage but I do not know what to keep it in


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## Gillian M (Oct 27, 2017)

Hi @John Alford and a very warm welcome to the forum!

Sorry I'm no tort expert and won't be able to help you. Apologies.

@Tom 
@Yvonne G 

please help here. Thank you both!


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## John Alford (Oct 27, 2017)

Thank you


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## JoesMum (Oct 27, 2017)

Ooh another from Paisley like @johnandjade 

Welcome from me in Kent 

It’s normal to get babies here in the UK. Mediterranean Sour thighs are better known as Greeks - Testudo graeca like my Joe. 

I recommend you read the TFO care guides as they explain everything. 

They're written by species experts working hard to correct the outdated information widely available on the internet and from pet stores and, sadly, from some breeders and vets too. 

Beginner Mistakes 
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

Baby Testudo Care - written about Russians but applies to Greeks
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...or-other-herbivorous-tortoise-species.107734/


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## John Alford (Oct 27, 2017)

Ok thank you


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## John Alford (Oct 27, 2017)

Very helpful! But could anyone please send me a link to a suitable cage for a Greek tortoise


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## johnandjade (Oct 27, 2017)

awright mukka!!! im john from paisley as well!! i am no expert but i am more than happy to meet you for a beer and share what knowledge i have. welcome and happy tortin’


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## Tidgy's Dad (Oct 27, 2017)

Hello, John, and a very warm welcome to Tortoise Forum. 
A baby will obviously be able to be kept in a smaller and different enclosure to an adult. 
An adult needs four feet by eight as an absolute minimum. 
Also it depends if you mean indoor or outdoor enclosures or both. 
https://tortoiseforum.org/forums/tortoise-enclosures.7/
has a million good ideas.


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## John Alford (Oct 27, 2017)

I ment indoors and do you have any links as to where I could buy one? Thanks


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## John Alford (Oct 27, 2017)

johnandjade said:


> awright mukka!!! im john from paisley as well!! i am no expert but i am more than happy to meet you for a beer and share what knowledge i have. welcome and happy tortin’


Thanks sounds like a plan


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## Tidgy's Dad (Oct 27, 2017)

John Alford said:


> I ment indoors and do you have any links as to where I could buy one? Thanks


Not really, no, I made mine. 
Many people make their own, it can be much cheaper and better just getting a big bookcase or two, knocking out the shelves, lining them with pond liner and so on. Just an example. Many of the ones for sale are too small or frankly nasty and expensive. Some large glass fish tanks and such are excellent but very expensive.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Oct 27, 2017)

John Alford said:


> Thanks sounds like a plan


John is a great guy. 
We met up in Spain and he's just amazing.
Love him to bits.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 27, 2017)

Go to a home improvement or hardware store and buy the biggest plastic bin you can find. Here's what I use:







You can look for it online and the shipping isn't too much because it's light weight. Here's what mine looks like occupied:


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## Tom (Oct 27, 2017)

John Alford said:


> Hello, I’m looking to get a Mediterranean spur thighed tortoise and I was wondering if anyone could give me some tips and information as to which cage I should buy it
> 
> I know they aren’t kept in a cage but I do not know what to keep it in



Hi John. Where in the world is Paisley? Knowing your climate, will influence the advice we give.

Nobody is posting a link for where to buy one, because there really isn't any place to go buy one. You have to build one, or have one built for you. None of the ones that are made and marketed for tortoises are suitable for tortoises. They are usually way too small and very poorly designed, and do not meet the needs of a tortoise.

There is a place here in the states that sells ready made closed chambers: http://www.apcages.com/home/terrestrial/terrestrial.htm
But if you are getting and adult, you'll need something bigger. 4x8' should be the minimum.

Also, we need to know if you are getting a hatchling or an adult. Different advice for each one.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Oct 27, 2017)

Tom said:


> Hi John. Where in the world is Paisley? Knowing your climate, will influence the advice we give.
> 
> Nobody is posting a link for where to buy one, because there really isn't any place to go buy one. You have to build one, or have one built for you. None of the ones that are made and marketed for tortoises are suitable for tortoises. They are usually way too small and very poorly designed, and do not meet the needs of a tortoise.
> 
> ...


Paisley. 
Usually pretty cold place in Scotland which is currently bidding to be the UK's city of culture for 2021. 
John as in @johnandjade is from there.


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## JoesMum (Oct 27, 2017)

Tom said:


> Hi John. Where in the world is Paisley? Knowing your climate, will influence the advice we give.


Scotland - near Glasgow  Opposite end of the UK to me 



> Nobody is posting a link for where to buy one, because there really isn't any place to go buy one. You have to build one, or have one built for you. None of the ones that are made and marketed for tortoises are suitable for tortoises. They are usually way too small and very poorly designed, and do not meet the needs of a tortoise.
> 
> There is a place here in the states that sells ready made closed chambers: http://www.apcages.com/home/terrestrial/terrestrial.htm
> But if you are getting and adult, you'll need something bigger. 4x8' should be the minimum. Assume cold... and wet.
> ...


More than likely he will be getting a very young animal here in the UK. So we are talking closed chamber.


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## Tom (Oct 27, 2017)

JoesMum said:


> Scotland - near Glasgow  Opposite end of the UK to me
> 
> 
> More than likely he will be getting a very young animal here in the UK. So we are talking closed chamber.



Thank you for the education! Does anyone in the UK or Scotland sell ready made closed chambers that are large enough? I frequently see pics from over in that part of the world of "vivariums" that look suitable for starting a baby.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 27, 2017)

What was wrong with my answer? Plastic bins have served me and my baby tortoises well for many, many years. No need to build something.


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## JoesMum (Oct 27, 2017)

Yvonne G said:


> What was wrong with my answer? Plastic bins have served me and my baby tortoises well for many, many years. No need to build something.



These are available from the B&Q Hardware store @Yvonne G
3’11”x 11”:
http://www.diy.com/departments/really-useful-christmas-tree-storage-box/172222_BQ.prd

2’8” x 1’11”: http://www.diy.com/departments/form-flexi-store-140l-plastic-storage-box-with-wheels/1144776_BQ.prd

3’7”x 1’6”: http://www.diy.com/departments/bq-black-grey-189l-plastic-storage-box/255195_BQ.prd
Any preference?


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## John Alford (Oct 27, 2017)

John Alford said:


> Thanks sounds like a plan





JoesMum said:


> These are available from the B&Q Hardware store @Yvonne G
> 3’11”x 11”:
> http://www.diy.com/departments/really-useful-christmas-tree-storage-box/172222_BQ.prd
> 
> ...


As big as possible


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## Tom (Oct 27, 2017)

Yvonne G said:


> What was wrong with my answer? Plastic bins have served me and my baby tortoises well for many, many years. No need to build something.


I don't like open tops or having the heating and lighting outside on top. I've tried to do it many times and many ways, and it has never worked well for me. Its a compromise and I don't like the results I get with that method. Its better than a low sided sweater box or tortoise table, but still nowhere near as good as a closed chamber. A closed chamber with a solid top and all of the heating and lighting inside is far superior in every way. It is more efficient, so it saves money on electricity, it allows the use of lower wattage bulbs, which reduces carapace desiccation, and it creates a more stable growing environment, which is much easier to maintain correctly and it generates better results from the growing babies.

Have you ever done a side-by-side comparison? Open topped tub on one side and a proper closed chamber on the other? I'm talking about an open topped tub that has been closed in with foil or plastic or something, but still has the lights outside the enclosure creating that chimney effect. The difference in appearance, pyramiding and growth rate of the hatchlings is striking. Very obvious differences.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 27, 2017)

You obviously haven't read any of my baby enclosure posts. My baby bins are NOT open topped.


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## John Alford (Oct 28, 2017)

what do you guys think about a turtle table as an indoor enclosure for a Greek?


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## JoesMum (Oct 28, 2017)

John Alford said:


> what do you guys think about a turtle table as an indoor enclosure for a Greek?



No roof for a youngster. Not big enough for a more mature tort

Don’t bother.


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## John Alford (Oct 28, 2017)

Ok


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## John Alford (Oct 28, 2017)

Yvonne G said:


> Go to a home improvement or hardware store and buy the biggest plastic bin you can find. Here's what I use:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How would we get lights and heating in there?


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## Tom (Oct 28, 2017)

Yvonne G said:


> You obviously haven't read any of my baby enclosure posts. My baby bins are NOT open topped.


Did you read my second paragraph? I have read your posts and seen your enclosures.


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## Tom (Oct 28, 2017)

John Alford said:


> what do you guys think about a turtle table as an indoor enclosure for a Greek?


An open table isn't the best environment for a baby, but it can work fine for an adult as long as it is large enough. If you build a tortoise table by putting sides on a 4x8' sheet of plywood, and use the correct heating and lighting, they can work great for an already grown adult.


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## WithLisa (Oct 28, 2017)

Why not get a cold frame? If you build some kind of base it can be used inside as well as outside and the tort could use it for many years, not just as a hatchling.


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## leigti (Oct 28, 2017)

If you are looking for something to buy rather than build you can try getting garden boxes, they come in kids that include a cover or you could build or make a table type enclosure and put a cover over it. For a hatchling a small enclosure is great but for an adult you want as big as you can get.



Several people here have made pretty good enclosures with the lifetime garden bed kits. You can get them on Amazon, they probably have them over there I would hope so anyway.


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## John Alford (Oct 29, 2017)

I just don’t know what to do, I’m no good at building and I don’t really know anything about lighting and how I would get the lights into a plastic bin


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## JoesMum (Oct 29, 2017)

John Alford said:


> I just don’t know what to do, I’m no good at building and I don’t really know anything about lighting and how I would get the lights into a plastic bin



You buy reptile lamp stand to hang lamps from like this. 



Or you make a wooden frame... or get someone to construct one. 

It doesn’t have to look like it was built by a master craftsman. Your tort won’t care. What matters is that the enclosure provides for the needs of your pet.


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## johnandjade (Oct 29, 2017)

John Alford said:


> Thanks sounds like a plan



feel free to send me a pm


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## Bass.Isles (Oct 29, 2017)

Yvonne G said:


> What was wrong with my answer? Plastic bins have served me and my baby tortoises well for many, many years. No need to build something.


I agree. I use deck boxes, because they retain humidity super well because they are the hard plastic, but also have a top/lid that is hooked on/built on and lifts up and down. The deck box I have now is 6ft x 3ft (I know that's small, but she was only like 250 grams when I got her), but next weekend I'm getting a second one and am going to hook them together, now that she is at 5.75 inches and 500 grams lol. So it'll be 12 ft x 3ft.


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## John Alford (Oct 29, 2017)

Do you know any good places in or near paisley f


Bass.Isles said:


> I agree. I use deck boxes, because they retain humidity super well. The deck box I have now is 6ft x 3ft, but next weekend I'm getting a second one and am going to hook them together, now that she is at 5 inches. So it'll be 12 ft x 3ft. [emoji14]


 are they hard to build?


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## Bass.Isles (Oct 29, 2017)

John Alford said:


> Do you know any good places in or near paisley f
> are they hard to build?


The deck boxes? They are pre-built. They are meant to keep pool stuff in, but I found that it's works pretty great. I got mine, used from someone round here in Florida, but you can get em from Amazon, which im pretty sure delivers to Scotland. This is the largest I could find on there, though. It's 5ft long instead of 6ft, like mine. But you're getting a tiny baby, right? it would work for a while, anyway. 

Rubbermaid Deck Box with Seat, Extra Large, 120 Gal., 16 cu. ft., Olive Steel (FG5E3900OLVSS) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000CFOUEU/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20


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## JoesMum (Oct 29, 2017)

Bass.Isles said:


> The deck boxes? They are pre-built. They are meant to keep pool stuff in, but I found that it's works pretty great. I got mine, used from someone round here in Florida, but you can get em from Amazon, which im pretty sure delivers to Scotland. This is the largest I could find on there, though. It's 5ft long instead of 6ft, like mine. But you're getting a tiny baby, right? it would work for a while, anyway.
> 
> Rubbermaid Deck Box with Seat, Extra Large, 120 Gal., 16 cu. ft., Olive Steel (FG5E3900OLVSS) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000CFOUEU/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20



This type of thing?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Keter-Sher...509304538&sr=8-3&keywords=cushion+storage+box


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## John Alford (Oct 29, 2017)

Bass.Isles said:


> The deck boxes? They are pre-built. They are meant to keep pool stuff in, but I found that it's works pretty great. I got mine, used from someone round here in Florida, but you can get em from Amazon, which im pretty sure delivers to Scotland. This is the largest I could find on there, though. It's 5ft long instead of 6ft, like mine. But you're getting a tiny baby, right? it would work for a while, anyway.
> 
> Rubbermaid Deck Box with Seat, Extra Large, 120 Gal., 16 cu. ft., Olive Steel (FG5E3900OLVSS) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000CFOUEU/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20



I’m new to tortoises so I don’t know much but would I be able to get an accurate temperature from the thermostat through the plastic?


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## John Alford (Oct 29, 2017)

JoesMum said:


> This type of thing?
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Keter-Sher...509304538&sr=8-3&keywords=cushion+storage+box


Yeah, something like that


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## JoesMum (Oct 29, 2017)

John Alford said:


> I’m new to tortoises so I don’t know much but would I be able to get an accurate temperature from the thermostat through the plastic?



The thermostat for the CHE goes inside the box with the tortoise 

To measure basking temperature accurately you need a temperature gun like this

And for substrate block coco coir like this which you soften with water is good.


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## John Alford (Oct 29, 2017)

How long will I need to buy more coco coir


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## JoesMum (Oct 29, 2017)

John Alford said:


> How long will I need to buy more coco coir



Not sure I understand you?

It’s the substrate. The earth that goes in the bottom. It needs to be 3-4” (8-10cm) deep. 

It rarely needs replacing.


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## WithLisa (Oct 29, 2017)

Bass.Isles said:


> The deck boxes? They are pre-built. They are meant to keep pool stuff in, but I found that it's works pretty great. I got mine, used from someone round here in Florida, but you can get em from Amazon, which im pretty sure delivers to Scotland. This is the largest I could find on there, though. It's 5ft long instead of 6ft, like mine. But you're getting a tiny baby, right? it would work for a while, anyway.
> 
> Rubbermaid Deck Box with Seat, Extra Large, 120 Gal., 16 cu. ft., Olive Steel (FG5E3900OLVSS) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000CFOUEU/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20


How do you watch your tort if you keep it in an opaque box? Seems pointless to get a tortoise if you can't even enjoy it...


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## Bass.Isles (Oct 29, 2017)

John Alford said:


> I’m new to tortoises so I don’t know much but would I be able to get an accurate temperature from the thermostat through the plastic?


Well, most tort owners I know, use probes that go inside the enclosure in different spots that connect to readouts outside the enclosure, to gauge the correct temperature AND humidity. Also, you should have a temp gun on hand to make sure the temps are right in different spots. 

This is the hygrometer & temp gun I have. 


Pawliss Digital 2-in-1 Terrarium Reptile Thermometer Hygrometer With Probe https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017Z7Y6FK/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20


Etekcity Lasergrip 774 Non-contact Digital Laser Infrared Thermometer Temperature Gun -58℉~ 716℉ (-50℃ ~ 380℃), Yellow and Black https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00837ZGRY/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20


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## Bass.Isles (Oct 29, 2017)

JoesMum said:


> This type of thing?
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Keter-Sher...509304538&sr=8-3&keywords=cushion+storage+box


Yup, like that.


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## Bass.Isles (Oct 29, 2017)

WithLisa said:


> How do you watch your tort if you keep it in an opaque box? Seems pointless to get a tortoise if you can't even enjoy it...


Well, i live in Florida, so obviously it's way too hot and humid to keep the top closed a lot of the time (her enclosure is on my back porch, not inside my house). Plus, making sure my tort has the best environment possible (correct humidity & temp), outweighs my desire to watch her walk around. if you have the money to have a closed chamber built, that is clear, and at least 6 ft x 3ft+ large, then that's awesome. I didnt. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy her (why would you just assume I dont?). Besides, having her on the porch like i do, she would cook if I kept her in something glass or see-through out in the Florida sun.


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## Bass.Isles (Oct 29, 2017)

WithLisa said:


> How do you watch your tort if you keep it in an opaque box? Seems pointless to get a tortoise if you can't even enjoy it...


Also, if you read about tortoise enclosures, a lot of the literature, in reference to when they are outdoors, suggest NOT to put them in something they can see out of. which is so true, because for her yard run, i used to use something similar to a hard wire dog run, and she did nothing but try to escape and climb the sides because she could see what she wasn't allowed to access. I built her a different yard enclosure to play in, out of cinder blocks, so she can no longer see outside of her space and she's much happier with that.


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## WithLisa (Oct 29, 2017)

Bass.Isles said:


> Also, if you read about tortoise enclosures, a lot of the literature, in reference to when they are outdoors, suggest NOT to put them in something they can see out of. which is so true, because for her yard run, i used to use something similar to a hard wire dog run, and she did nothing but try to escape and climb the sides because she could see what she wasn't allowed to access. I built her a different yard enclosure to play in, out of cinder blocks, so she can no longer see outside of her space and she's much happier with that.


Covering a few inches at the bottom will easily solve that problem and according to my experience transparency doesn't even matters if the enclosure is big enough. But I would definitely not recommend something made of wire, they won't understand its a barrier if they can not only see through, but sniff and even stick their head and legs through.

I've spent hours and hours beside my enclosure, just watching my precious babies sleep or bask  and would feel sorry for John Alford if he couldn't since in Scotland he would have to keep the lid closed most of the time.


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## Bass.Isles (Oct 30, 2017)

WithLisa said:


> Covering a few inches at the bottom will easily solve that problem and according to my experience transparency doesn't even matters if the enclosure is big enough. But I would definitely not recommend something made of wire, they won't understand its a barrier if they can not only see through, but sniff and even stick their head and legs through.
> 
> I've spent hours and hours beside my enclosure, just watching my precious babies sleep or bask  and would feel sorry for John Alford if he couldn't since in Scotland he would have to keep the lid closed most of the time.


Yeah, it was similar, but after a few weeks when I did see her trying to stick her legs & head through lol, i hard plastic-ed the bottom 6 inches of the whole thing and she would still just try to climb the sides to escape into the rest of the yard, and that run was 8ft x3ft. The cinder block enclosure I have for her now out in the yard, just to play in, is 13 ft x 5ft, and she is 5.75 inches long. She loves it! haha. And as for the transparency not mattering if the enclosure is big enough, that very well may be the case, but the problem would still remain that she would bake in the Florida sun if her living enclosure on my back porch, was clear. lol. But I totally get what you mean about just sitting and observing. I do that every day. Like I said, it's so hot & humid here most of the time (I hate it) that even though her enclosure is opaque, i have to keep the lid open. so i can still watch her. My Instagram is basically just like, 300 videos of her. Haha. I'm sure my friends & family are sick to death.


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## Bass.Isles (Oct 30, 2017)

WithLisa said:


> Covering a few inches at the bottom will easily solve that problem and according to my experience transparency doesn't even matters if the enclosure is big enough. But I would definitely not recommend something made of wire, they won't understand its a barrier if they can not only see through, but sniff and even stick their head and legs through.
> 
> I've spent hours and hours beside my enclosure, just watching my precious babies sleep or bask  and would feel sorry for John Alford if he couldn't since in Scotland he would have to keep the lid closed most of the time.


I would freaking love to see Scotland one day, btw. It's always been on my bucket list haha. What part do you live in/near?


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## John Alford (Oct 30, 2017)

Bass.Isles said:


> I would freaking love to see Scotland one day, btw. It's always been on my bucket list haha. What part do you live in/near?


Scotland is good but I’d avoid paisley lol


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## JoesMum (Oct 30, 2017)

John Alford said:


> Scotland is good but I’d avoid paisley lol


It has a handy airport


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## John Alford (Oct 30, 2017)

Ranked as the worst town in scotland


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## trickspiration (Nov 4, 2017)

John Alford said:


> Hello, I’m looking to get a Mediterranean spur thighed tortoise and I was wondering if anyone could give me some tips and information as to which cage I should buy it
> 
> I know they aren’t kept in a cage but I do not know what to keep it in



Per Kamp Kenan's suggestion, I would recommend a concrete mixing bin for a baby tortoise that is a few months old. 

(



)

Depending on how much space you have to house the tortoise, I would get the largest bin possible. I personally purchased a 36" x 24" x 8" bin from Home Depot that works right now for how small my baby ibera greek tortoise is (~4.5 cm), and he seems to be doing fine roaming around his home. Of course, bigger is always better to encourage their roaming/foraging behaviors similar to their activity in the wild.

I currently have coco coir as the substrate, initially moistened to ensure the enclosure has the humidity it needs, and sprayed down twice a day afterwards to maintain the humidity that he needs. The coco coir is roughly 2 inches deep in the enclosure, deep enough for him to burrow when he wants to retire for the day (usually that happens around 2:30 pm), but not too deep where we can't find where he is in the morning.

I have a heat lamp also bought from Home Depot (HDX 150-Watt Incandescent Clamp Light) that houses a 57-watt regular bulb positioned on top of a basking stone that, according to a temp gun, reads 95-100F. The enclosure also includes a warm hide (a terra cotta pot) and a cool hide (an irrigation valve box we found in the backyard), the cooler side of the enclosure around low 70s (69F is the lowest temp registered on the temp gun). We provide a shallow water dish in his food dish for him to replenish himself, some pinecones and sticks for him to climb over, and a few rocks for him to sniff. 

Hope this helps.


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