# Experiment #3, 2011



## Tom (Jun 8, 2011)

So far for 2011 we have this one:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-VitaShell--27085#axzz1OkqZ1aQx

And this one:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Humid-Hatchling-Chamber#axzz1OkqZ1aQx

Both of these are going very well and I will be posting updates on them as we go along.

So here is #3:










It is actually a big bird brooder. It has a very precisely controlled thermostat and two ways to control humidity. I, of course will be keeping humidity high. It is set on a 12 hour timer for 92 degrees while its on. So at 7am it kicks on and quickly warms up to 92 and at 7pm it kicks off and gradually cools to the room temp of 80. This one is different than the "humid chamber experiment" in that they don't have a choice about warmth. In the humid chamber they can get on or off their heat mat as they see fit. In this one they just get warm and thats that. I might fiddle with the temp, if I see a need. This one was inspired by Neal, whose vet told him to keep a sick star tortoise in an incubator during treatment, and Norman who keeps some pretty amazing species, and keeps them gorgeous too, but doesn't use heat lamps or hot spots. At least those are the main two gentlemen that put this idea in my head.

3 of my recent 12 Deloris' hatchlings are in here. I'm planning on running this one for around 6 months, unless there is the slightest hint of a problem or they just outgrow it too fast. Its about 30" long and 18" wide. These babies will still get daily soaks and an hour or two of sunshine in an outdoor pen around 5 days a week. They will also get the same diet and supplement routine as all the other ones.

There will be a 4th and possibly fifth experiment with these hatchlings this year, but more on those later...


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## dmmj (Jun 8, 2011)

I think we might be witnessing the birth of a mad scientist LOL


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## Tom (Jun 8, 2011)

dmmj said:


> I think we might be witnessing the birth of a mad scientist LOL



... or hopefully the end of pyramiding...


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## l0velesly (Jun 8, 2011)

Sounds like a great idea! I'm looking forward to your results!


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## Laura (Jun 9, 2011)

when the babies hit a certain age or size, do you plan to sell them?> 
if this works... i hope the Big breeders/ sellers of these guys catch on and then we will have less hatchling heartbreaks as well.. 
however.. will that mean.. more in rescues as well? 
regardless.. love your mad scientist passion!!!!!


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## Torty Mom (Jun 9, 2011)

Good luck Tom, I think it's great what you are trying to accomplish!


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## DeanS (Jun 9, 2011)

I have absolutely no doubt that all three (along with your unnamed soon-to-come-to-fruition) experiments will ALL be successful...


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## TortieLuver (Jun 9, 2011)

That's great work Tom! We all can't wait to here your results from your data and analysis. We all might be going out in 6 months and buying brooders LOL!! You are certainly doing a good deed to helping hatchling owners care for their captive-bred tortoise


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## Fernando (Jun 9, 2011)

how much do brooders cost??


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## Neal (Jun 9, 2011)

Well, you beat me to the punch. I remember talking to you about doing this exact thing back in December. I have a crude form of this I've been keeping some of mine in, so far it works well.


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## Kristina (Jun 9, 2011)

Same kind of idea I had as far as carefully controlled temp and humidity, lol, although mine is a bit cruder


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## ascott (Jun 9, 2011)

Hi Tom,

I have been reading some of your threads about your theory here and I am inclined to agree with your direction.....what species are you following for your theory/test?


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## Tortoise-Luke (Jun 9, 2011)

Tom i've talked to you on pm before so you know i'm a fan, but i dont really agree on this one because you're going against "nature's" way. I think they should have a choice in temperatures, maybe have some kind of doggy door to a cooler spot somewhere else. Not saying you should'nt try it I just dont prefer it, they are cold blooded for a reason and should be able to cool down even during the day.
Didn't want to bash on your experiment just think it's not the best direction, hope you don't take it the wrong way, just a thought.


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## Yvonne G (Jun 9, 2011)

Hi Luke:

Its perfectly ok to disagree with something you read on the forum. Tom understands, I'm sure. Not everyone thinks alike and we're certainly not sheep. So its quite ok to go in a different direction. The problem enters when your disagreement takes a derogatory turn. If everyone just keeps it friendly and no name calling, etc. please feel free to agree or disagree...but stay friendly!!


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## Kristina (Jun 9, 2011)

See, I don't think it goes against nature as much as most people believe.

Tom, here is a suggestion. I believe you have a temp gun, right? Go outside when the sun is full out and take a temp reading of the ground. In the same vicinity, find the base of a clump of weeds. etc, scratch a 1" deep hole and take a temp reading of it.

I bet they aren't far off...


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## Tortoise-Luke (Jun 9, 2011)

emysemys said:


> Hi Luke:
> 
> Its perfectly ok to disagree with something you read on the forum. Tom understands, I'm sure. Not everyone thinks alike and we're certainly not sheep. So its quite ok to go in a different direction. The problem enters when your disagreement takes a derogatory turn. If everyone just keeps it friendly and no name calling, etc. please feel free to agree or disagree...but stay friendly!!



thank you, i hope it didnt hurt anyones feelings or think im looking down on his experiment, on the contrary it really makes me happy to see someone invest time and money (on his own dime) just to seek a brighter future for tortoises in general.
Matter of fact I'm performing a "copy" of his experiment #2 with some chaco hatchlings to see how it turns out with a different species on the other side of the hemisphere, I promise to start the thread soon


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## dmarcus (Jun 9, 2011)

I think its cool that Tom is doing all he can to end pyramiding and he has chosen to let us all in on the process. 

I also agree with Yvonne G. We can agree and disagree with each other about things, just don't make it personal and try to use a little tact because not everyone has think skin and we do have kids on this forum..


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jun 9, 2011)

dmmj said:


> I think we might be witnessing the birth of a mad scientist LOL



Yup...


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## ticothetort2 (Jun 9, 2011)

Very interesting Tom, really look forward to seeing results in the future. Thanks for sharing the process w/ us.


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## Tom (Jun 9, 2011)

Neal said:


> Well, you beat me to the punch. I remember talking to you about doing this exact thing back in December. I have a crude form of this I've been keeping some of mine in, so far it works well.



Well jeez louise Neal. You do all sorts of neat stuff and I really think you figure out some good things. How come you don't wanna post it more? I wish you would. I know I have benefited from things you have shared in the past, and I'm certain I would learn a lot more if you posted it.

What results have you observed so far? If I'm just spinning my wheels in the wrong direction on an experiment that has already been done, I may as well just quit early. Love to hear your thoughts on it.



Kristina said:


> Same kind of idea I had as far as carefully controlled temp and humidity, lol, although mine is a bit cruder



It IS similar to your set up, but I'm trying to avoid any of the desiccating overhead heat and accompanying low humidity areas within an enclosure.

BTW, I'm moving all the Gpp to a 4x8' enclosure and my CHE is directly over one of the water bowls.  




ascott said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> I have been reading some of your threads about your theory here and I am inclined to agree with your direction.....what species are you following for your theory/test?



Last year I did sulcatas, both types of leopards and CDTs. All went extremely well. All of these are so-called "desert" species and all seem to suffer greatly from being kept too dry as babies. NONE of these "desert" species did anything but thrive under humid and well hydrated conditions.

This years experiments are all sulcatas that I hatched myself. I have too many and too much going on to branch out into a bunch of other species right now, but I would love it if some other people would do it with their hatchlings and start a thread showing their results. I don't want anyone to think that I, or anyone else, would be the least bit offended by someone else doing something similar. Just the opposite. I'm doing all this to advance tortoise keeping knowledge. If more people do it with me, knowledge will advance even further.





Tortoise-Luke said:


> Tom i've talked to you on pm before so you know i'm a fan, but i dont really agree on this one because you're going against "nature's" way. I think they should have a choice in temperatures, maybe have some kind of doggy door to a cooler spot somewhere else. Not saying you should'nt try it I just dont prefer it, they are cold blooded for a reason and should be able to cool down even during the day.
> Didn't want to bash on your experiment just think it's not the best direction, hope you don't take it the wrong way, just a thought.



Luke, I'm GLAD you said something. Thank you. Your successful attempt at sugar coating, just makes it that much nicer. You stand with the majority of people keeping reptiles and tortoises all over the world. I used to stand with you over there in the not too distant past. In the last few years, however, I have just seen a tremendous amount of overwhelming evidence that contradicts the "conventional wisdom". Seeing other people successfully doing things the way I am attempting to do them here, has made me reconsider the "conventional" and open my mind a bit. Have you ever seen pics of Norman's tortoises? Do a search for Gummybearpoop and look at his perfect specimens and his style of keeping them. I'm not inventing any of this. I'm only assimilating and copying what I've seen done successfully elsewhere and trying to show it to everybody. If I had any doubts about what the outcome will be, I would not jeopardize the well being of these precious little babies.

I'm not saying you are wrong. I don't know yet if you are or aren't. But I will invite you to keep an eye on this thread and see how it goes. I only politely ask you to keep an open mind... If I am wrong I will be publicly humiliated, and that is NOT something that I would enjoy.





Kristina said:


> See, I don't think it goes against nature as much as most people believe.
> 
> Tom, here is a suggestion. I believe you have a temp gun, right? Go outside when the sun is full out and take a temp reading of the ground. In the same vicinity, find the base of a clump of weeds. etc, scratch a 1" deep hole and take a temp reading of it.
> 
> I bet they aren't far off...



I'll do this tomorrow afternoon. And get pics of it too.



Terry Allan Hall said:


> dmmj said:
> 
> 
> > I think we might be witnessing the birth of a mad scientist LOL
> ...



Hmmm... What will NEXT years experiments be????? MMMMOOOOOHHOOOOHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jun 10, 2011)

Tom said:


> Last year I did sulcatas, both types of leopards and CDTs. All went extremely well. All of these are so-called "desert" species and all seem to suffer greatly from being kept too dry as babies. NONE of these "desert" species did anything but thrive under humid and well hydrated conditions.
> 
> This years experiments are all sulcatas that I hatched myself. I have too many and too much going on to branch out into a bunch of other species right now, but I would love it if some other people would do it with their hatchlings and start a thread showing their results. I don't want anyone to think that I, or anyone else, would be the least bit offended by someone else doing something similar. Just the opposite. I'm doing all this to advance tortoise keeping knowledge. If more people do it with me, knowledge will advance even further.



After reading about this idea, I think that, once my Hermann's are reproducing and I get some hatchlings, I'm going to try this, myself. Might even buy a few hatchlings before my breeding program kicks off and see how well it works.

Keep us updated on your experiment, Tom...Mad Scientists contribute, too!


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## Nay (Jun 10, 2011)

I just LOVE the passion! When someone reaches down deep to do something they feel strongly about to put the time and effort and expense in, it just is so neat. I wish I could get my son to read some of this, he's 15 and only looking for the easy way out of things, nothing that requires an effort is even considered, oh yeah did I say he's 15??Duh..
But anyway, Kudos for you Tom, to not only do all this for your self and the torts but to take the time to show us..
Thanks
Nay


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## Neal (Jun 10, 2011)

Tom said:


> Well jeez louise Neal. You do all sorts of neat stuff and I really think you figure out some good things. How come you don't wanna post it more? I wish you would. I know I have benefited from things you have shared in the past, and I'm certain I would learn a lot more if you posted it.
> 
> What results have you observed so far? If I'm just spinning my wheels in the wrong direction on an experiment that has already been done, I may as well just quit early. Love to hear your thoughts on it.





Several reasons. Mostly time. Between studying for the CPA exam and working 50 hours a week, I just can't do much more than a few quick comments during the week, and maybe a new thread on the weekend. Other reasons I don't expect people to understand so I'll just leave it at that. I can see why you post about everything you do, and there certainly isn't anything wrong with that, I just approach it differently I guess.

As mentioned at the start of my hatchlings a few months back, I wanted to try your swampy method and being in AZ it was a lot of work to keep the substrate moist all the time. Being the busy / lazy person I am with some things, I didn't want to have to dump a bunch of water in my hatchling enclosures every day to keep the humidity up. So I threw some plaxiglass over the tub, with holes cut out for the che and mvb. Both the che and mvb are set up at a height where the temps are maintained at consistent levels throughout the enclosure. It's basically an incubator, just very crude as mentioned. 

As far as results I have seen, nothing different than what I see with my tortoises that are being kept dry (but well hydrated mind you). Actually, my first tortoise has some slight pyramiding, but nothing bad at all. This one was kept in this set up since day 1.


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## Balboa (Jun 13, 2011)

Tortoise-Luke said:


> Tom i've talked to you on pm before so you know i'm a fan, but i dont really agree on this one because you're going against "nature's" way. I think they should have a choice in temperatures, maybe have some kind of doggy door to a cooler spot somewhere else. Not saying you should'nt try it I just dont prefer it, they are cold blooded for a reason and should be able to cool down even during the day.
> Didn't want to bash on your experiment just think it's not the best direction, hope you don't take it the wrong way, just a thought.



Heck, some of us make it a habit to disagree with Tom on a regular basis, it helps him and us think 

As Tom knows, I'm keen on this one. I've suspected basking lamps to be very damaging for a long time. He's beaten me to the punch, my hatchlings won't be out for a couple more months.

In discussions with a "prominent" keeper 86 degrees came up as the perfect temp. Keep a tortoise at 86 with no basking or gradient and they'll be "fine". Even he likes to give them a gradient when practical however. It basically comes down to ideal and adequate, etc. All they really need is 86, but the gradient gives the tort the tools to compensate for their keepers inadequacies.


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## Tom (Jun 13, 2011)

Balboa, right again on all counts!

What species are you talking about when you say 86 is the perfect temp? I chose 92 rather arbitrarily. I picked that temp based on observations of my tort babies over the last several years and based on several other people's opinions.

I'd love it if you still carried on with your own experiments when your hatchlings arrive. Whether we get the same or different results, much will be learned by all.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jun 13, 2011)

Balboa said:


> Tortoise-Luke said:
> 
> 
> > Tom i've talked to you on pm before so you know i'm a fan, but i dont really agree on this one because you're going against "nature's" way. I think they should have a choice in temperatures, maybe have some kind of doggy door to a cooler spot somewhere else. Not saying you should'nt try it I just dont prefer it, they are cold blooded for a reason and should be able to cool down even during the day.
> ...



I think that Bob basking to close to a 250 watt basking lamp with no humidity is what damaged his carapace the way it is now...So I totally agree with you...


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## Kristina (Jun 13, 2011)

I have been saying for a long time that most people overheat their tortoises


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## Sky2Mina (Jun 13, 2011)

I wish more people would publish their experiments (with different species). It is very interesting to watch - no matter what the outcome will be.

Hope to see some pictures soon, Tom.


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## Balboa (Jun 13, 2011)

In the opinion of the keeper I refer to, 86 is a universal temp for not only all torts, but all reptiles. I'm sure there are some exceptions out there, but it makes sense that nature has some rules it follows. In the case of reptiles, for all their differences of appearance, internal biology still has some restraints set by bio-chemistry or whatever.

92 is not so far off I'd worry. With the day to night variation it makes sense. Go a little warmer than is maybe "required" during active times, let them cool off a bit to rest. My only concern with the arbitrary single "perfect" temp was it leaves no way for the tort to "run a fever", so I guess going warmer may be helpful.


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## Tom (Jun 24, 2011)

All is going very well. They are steadily growing and still perfectly smooth. I'm already seeing something interesting. Last year, and in both of this year other experiments, there is alway one of the trio that just seems to sprout and put on size and weight faster than the other two. Last year and this year it tends to be the ones that hide in the humid hide box a lot. It seems when given a choice some of them will choose to do some thing that makes them grow more. These three have no choice. There is no basking spot or any place to get warmer or cooler. All three of them are growing at exactly the same rate. They've never been more than a gram or two apart, and that just seems to depend on whose eaten more or pooped recently as it rotates through all three of them which one is the gram or two heavier at each weigh in. Minutes before this pic, I weighed them at 48, 48, and 49 gams.


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## terryo (Jun 24, 2011)

Sky2Mina said:


> I wish more people would publish their experiments (with different species). It is very interesting to watch - no matter what the outcome will be.
> 
> Hope to see some pictures soon, Tom.



I only lurk on these threads as I have no Sulcata's, but I do read every one as I find them so interesting. I also would love seeing something similar with different species. 
Thank you for all your hard work Tom.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jun 24, 2011)

terryo said:


> Sky2Mina said:
> 
> 
> > I wish more people would publish their experiments (with different species). It is very interesting to watch - no matter what the outcome will be.
> ...



I'm thinking that much of what Tom, Balboa, Ascott and others are learning will apply to most tortoises and terrestrial turtles (box, wood, etc.)...

As soon as I have some hatchling Hermann's tortoises, I'm going to set up a similar enclosure for a few tort-lets, myself.


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## Tom (Jun 24, 2011)

Thanks to everybody. Terry O and Terry A, I appreciate the kind words and I hope all this helps somebody somewhere. It has always been a hope of mine that these "experiments" will inspire others to try different things with different species too. So hearing your plans for the future is like hitting a home run for me, TAH. Even more so because I hope to have a herd of Hermannn's in the not too distant future. It would be my honor to include some of your experimental test subjects as part of my herd when the time comes and your "experiments" are done.


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## terryo (Jun 24, 2011)

I don't want to hijack your thread Tom, so I'll make another one showing Pio and Solo who had different care growin up so far for any one who's interested.


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## Yvonne G (Jun 24, 2011)

I wish that Kelly (in the U.K.) would share with us how she raises her smooth Mediterranean tortoises too. 

Its different in other climates, and with other types of tortoise. We all can learn from each other.


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## Sky2Mina (Jun 25, 2011)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> As soon as I have some hatchling Hermann's tortoises, I'm going to set up a similar enclosure for a few tort-lets, myself.



Terry, I would love to see a thread (with pics ) about how exactly you are going to keep them.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jun 26, 2011)

Tom said:


> Thanks to everybody. Terry O and Terry A, I appreciate the kind words and I hope all this helps somebody somewhere. It has always been a hope of mine that these "experiments" will inspire others to try different things with different species too. So hearing your plans for the future is like hitting a home run for me, TAH. Even more so because I hope to have a herd of Hermannn's in the not too distant future. It would be my honor to include some of your experimental test subjects as part of my herd when the time comes and your "experiments" are done.



As soon as I have some, we'll negotiate...maybe by then my wife'll get over her fear of lizards, and I can get a monitor!


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## Tom (Jul 31, 2011)

First, go back and read the second to last paragraph, second sentence, of post number 1 on this thread.

I AM seeing the slightest hint of a problem and so I'm immediately scrapping this experiment. For the last couple of days these three babies just seem a little less active and their appetite is suddenly down. I see no reason for the change, but I'm not risking it. Everything has been going perfectly up to this point. They eat great and have been growing steadily and smoothly. Their weights have gone from 40 at the start of this experiment to around 60 right now. This is right on par with all of my other hatchlings.

I'm a bit surprised and disappointed by this. It was working perfectly for the last 7 weeks and nothing has changed, so its a bit frustrating. I know that some people maintain other species in similar ways long term and it works great for them. Maybe its just not a suitable method for sulcatas.

These three babies perked up out in the sun today and now they are back in a "conventional" set up. They seem to be perfectly fine now, but I am not willing to risk it. Hmm, now that I think about it these babies seemed to be favoring sitting in the sun a lot lately, even on hot days, when all the other babies hid out in the shade in their respective sunning enclosures. All the sunning enclosures are side by side and subject to the same conditions, but I almost always found these guys sitting in direct sunlight, right next to the shade. Maybe 92 just isn't warm enough for long term health on sulcatas. They seemed to be craving more warmth than my other 15 hatchlings whenever they were outside.

All of this year's other experiments are still going great.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jul 31, 2011)

Experiment # 4...I am sorry you felt the need to stop what you are doing. What I mean is I am sorry you have to stop. But there's been a wide variance from the beginning...My 3 babies all weigh over 80 grams as of a few minutes ago, and you say yours are 60 grams. Big difference. Anyhow, I know how disappointed you are but I am proud of you for being the good keeper you are and stopping before things get really bad...


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## Tom (Jul 31, 2011)

That pace of growth is totally normal for all of my babies. They have all been right around the same at any given age this year. Last years babies were growing at about the same rate too.

#5 and #6? Care to chime in? What are your weights?

Thanks Maggie...


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## kbaker (Aug 1, 2011)

Tom said:


> These three babies perked up out in the sun today and now they are back in a "conventional" set up. They seem to be perfectly fine now, but I am not willing to risk it. Hmm, now that I think about it these babies seemed to be favoring sitting in the sun a lot lately, even on hot days, when all the other babies hid out in the shade in their respective sunning enclosures. All the sunning enclosures are side by side and subject to the same conditions, but I almost always found these guys sitting in direct sunlight, right next to the shade. Maybe 92 just isn't warm enough for long term health on sulcatas. They seemed to be craving more warmth than my other 15 hatchlings whenever they were outside.



If this is true then it is more torwards what I would recommend...and that is to allow them to heat up as much as they want with a range of temps. They may not need the higher heat every day or often, but when they want it, they should have it.

Good work, Tom.


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## Kristina (Aug 1, 2011)

#5 here - Mine are in the same weight range as yours, Tom. They are growing a bit slower than Maggie's but are absolutely and completely smooth. They have been outside from the day I got them, they use their caves to sleep in and mostly graze on what is growing in their enclosure, although I do pick weeds from other areas in the yard and feed them to them. Shells are hardening appropriately, they are active (and of course adorable) and seem to be doing really well. I am trying to come up with an alternative heating source for their winter enclosure, rather than heat lamps. As most know I do not use UV lighting during the winter months, so that opens up a few options. I am thinking of radiant heat panels or some sort of infrared to more closely mimic the sun's rays rather than just blasting them with high temps. 

Now, my 8 month olds that were bred by Kevin - they were inside for most of their lives, but they were starting to pyramid just slightly (still really pleased with how they look.) They have been outside for two months now, and their growth has slowed, but, it has also smoothed.


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## Tom (Aug 1, 2011)

Kristina, how much do they bask in comparison to babies that are mostly kept indoors and just occasionally put outside for sun? I see a pretty typical range of basking time in most of my groups, but for the last couple of weeks or so, I noticed these guys basking much more than the norm when they were outside. My other group in the "humid chamber" are doing fine. They have the option of warming up to 92 on their Kane heat mat or cooling off when they want to. I see them thermoregulating throughout the day. This is one reason why I'm a bit perplexed. 92 seems to be fine for the other ones, but they choose to be warmer or cooler. An ambient of 92 seems to not be suiting these guys over the long term...


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## DeanS (Aug 1, 2011)

Are you doing anything special with the ivories? Or are they being raised in a more traditional method! And how about some photos!


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## kbaker (Aug 1, 2011)

Tom said:


> An ambient of 92 seems to not be suiting these guys over the long term...



I agree.


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## Tom (Aug 1, 2011)

DeanS said:


> Are you doing anything special with the ivories? Or are they being raised in a more traditional method! And how about some photos!



Hi Dean. They are in a more conventional set up. Kind of the same way I did last years EOP torts. They are growing slower than the rest, but steadily growing. Richard says that the Ivories usually do grow a little slower than the normal ones. Time will tell. I'll try to find the time to get some pics up for you.


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## Jacob (Aug 1, 2011)

Sounds Great


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## Tom (Aug 1, 2011)

Kevin, do you think that at a higher daily ambient temp, that this would still work? Maybe 94, 96, maybe 100?

What temp do you think would be "optimal" for sulcatas. I've always done conventional basking spots and this was an attempt to get away from that dry overhead heat, yet still keep them warm enough. For me, in my enclosures, right around 100 seems to be the perfect basking temp. Any lower and they just park under it all day long. Much higher than that and they tend to avoid it or just sit on the outskirts of it for short periods of time.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.


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## Kristina (Aug 1, 2011)

Personally, I think that 92 ambient is too high. I watch my torts hit the shade in 82 degree ambient weather. I think keeping them that hot long term is the problem. The need to be able to cool down. 

Mine bask in the early morning, same as the rest of my torts, and hit the caves in the afternoon. I don't notice longer basking times. Perhaps yours were basking longer because they had been kept so warm for their whole lives that they had adapted and felt "cold" otherwise. Like when someone from Virginia visits Michigan during the summer, and has to wear long sleeves and pants, while us native Michiganders are roasting in tank tops and shorts!

All guess-work, of course.


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## kbaker (Aug 1, 2011)

Tom said:


> Kevin, do you think that at a higher daily ambient temp, that this would still work? Maybe 94, 96, maybe 100?
> 
> What temp do you think would be "optimal" for sulcatas. I've always done conventional basking spots and this was an attempt to get away from that dry overhead heat, yet still keep them warm enough. For me, in my enclosures, right around 100 seems to be the perfect basking temp. Any lower and they just park under it all day long. Much higher than that and they tend to avoid it or just sit on the outskirts of it for short periods of time.
> 
> Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.



First there is a difference between maintaining them outside and inside. Just like box turtles, Sulcatas do best outside. That is...you introduce them to mild temps so they learn what is too hot and what is too cold. They do best long term outside.

Well, like most everyone else...you have to keep them inside for some period of time. I think anything over 90F long term is too high for ambient temps. Of course they will be fine at higher and lower temps for periods of time (how long?....it doesn't really matter).

I would shoot for 80-85F ambient. But now you introduce a basking area to help regulate temps. The topic here is not what or how you do it, but what temps to shoot for long term. I would say a basking area of about 100F is good. If they are recovering from some kind of illness, pushing 120F. 90F is low for a basking area and you are coming close to ambient temps then.

The big issue with some here is that a basking area is drying. If used badly, yes. If the basking area got to 105F and the ambient went to 75F, that would be drying. Well, you have a few short term options...up the humidity, adjust the temps or let it pass because it was a super hot day and the A/C isn't working. A sulcata would be fine either way. 

With the experiment, I think two things happened that caused failure...they did not have a basking area warm enough to bask for a short period and then regulate by moving around the cage. Second is...the constant 92F burnt them out. They were just above idle for so long and hit the wall.

The tortoise/turtles that do best for me are the ones that live with the lows and highs and the cycles of temps. This does not mean force them to extremes, but if a single night fell to 60F you don't have to rush them in. If it peaks at 100F, a sulcata will find its shade or dig a hole (of course they like a little hose down or available shade).


_Kevin, do you think that at a higher daily ambient temp, that this would still work? Maybe 94, 96, maybe 100?_
No, its ambient - go lower.
Try again maybe with 85F.

_I've always done conventional basking spots and this was an attempt to get away from that dry overhead heat, yet still keep them warm enough._
This is where humidity and low air flow come into play.

_ For me, in my enclosures, right around 100 seems to be the perfect basking temp. Any lower and they just park under it all day long. Much higher than that and they tend to avoid it or just sit on the outskirts of it for short periods of time._
You got it when you said they sit on the outskirts...that's why you need a basking AREA. They will find the sweet spot if you give it to them.
And they will find the hot spot when they need the boost.


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## Tom (Aug 16, 2011)

Final update. These little babies immediately went back to "normal" as soon as they got into a "conventional" set up. I kept them for a while to make sure they were healthy and growing again and now they have been sold to good homes. This story has a happy ending.


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## Balboa (Aug 17, 2011)

Interesting results Tom, I seem to have missed out on much of this thread until you just updated.

I think Kevin (darn I think I always call him Keith, oops) brought up some good points. Some food for thought here.


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## Levendis (Sep 22, 2011)

Tom,

Thanks for the updates and the informative experiment. Do you think it's possible that the hatchlings became uncomfortable simply due to lack of oxygen that day? I don't know how this setup gets fresh air inside, but would think that a slight blockage of the air intake might make the inside very uncomfortable.

Keep relative humidity high throughout the enclosure while having a temp gradient of more than 20'F seems very difficult for me as well. Currently I'm trying a new setup where I have a 60W ceramic heat bulb pointed at the humid hide to lure the sulcata hatchling to go inside the hide when nighttime ambient falls to around 80'F. (My daytime ambient is 85'F, and basking temp is around 95'F. 

L


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## Yvonne G (Sep 22, 2011)

Please excuse this small foray into the OT realm...

He Levendis:

Won't you take a few moments to start a new thread in the "introductions" section and tell us a bit about yourself?


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## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 22, 2011)

dmmj said:


> I think we might be witnessing the birth of a mad scientist LOL



LOL, Could be, A+ for efforts!


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## TurtleTortoise (Sep 22, 2011)

Whoa, what happened to Aldabraman being gone???


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## chase thorn (Sep 22, 2011)

im very curious to see what all 3 have to say about the way we keep out torts!


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