# Are you experienced?



## Yourlocalpoet (Sep 28, 2014)

I keeping hearing adjectives such as 'experienced' 'adept' and 'seasoned' to describe some tortoise keepers here on the forum.

Exactly what constitutes an experienced keeper, in your opinion, and why? 






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## Yvonne G (Sep 28, 2014)

We learn new things about turtles and tortoises every day, so I really doubt there is a turtle "expert." But 'experienced' to me means someone who has kept or worked with a specie for enough time to have gained a good knowledge about what it takes to keep the turtle alive and healthy. I have absolutely no knowledge about the Mediterranean or Testudos, so I hardly ever answer posts questioning those species. But I have quite a bit of experience with the Manouria, having kept and successfully bred them over the past 18 or so years. However, my "experience" with this species has to do with keeping them in the Central Valley of California. This is way different than someone who wants info on keeping them, for instance, in Nebraska.


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## motero (Sep 28, 2014)

I think there are two categories, Type One, I learned every thing about tortoises from reading every thing about them and am only a keeper of a few years. Type Two, I have been a keeper for decades and seen first hand what is good and bad for tortoises. Type two has experience, type one has information to share.


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## wellington (Sep 28, 2014)

I agree with motero. Although I dont know if I would call the type one experienced, as much as knowledgeable.


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## Jodie (Sep 28, 2014)

I don't know. I kind of think experience can come from others experiences. Kind of like learning from others mistakes. Keeping a tortoise doesn't necessarily give you experience. I had my 1st one for 4 years and learned nothing. He belonged to my son, and when he got sick, i started learning. I have gained more experience in the last 2 years then the previous 4.


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## Yourlocalpoet (Sep 28, 2014)

Yvonne G said:


> We learn new things about turtles and tortoises every day, so I really doubt there is a turtle "expert." But 'experienced' to me means someone who has kept or worked with a specie *for enough time* *to have gained a good knowledge about what it takes to keep the turtle alive and healthy.* I have absolutely no knowledge about the Mediterranean or Testudos, so I hardly ever answer posts questioning those species. But I have quite a bit of experience with the Manouria, having kept and successfully bred them over the past 18 or so years. However, my "experience" with this species has to do with keeping them in the Central Valley of California. This is way different than someone who wants info on keeping them, for instance, in Nebraska.



Thanks Yvonne. I'm particularly interested in this aspect of it. Surely this is different for everyone? How long is long enough, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years?


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## G-stars (Sep 28, 2014)

Hmm why can't it be a combination of both knowledge and time? Some of the more experienced keepers here have had tortoises for decades and to no fault of themselves or anyone, have taken care of these tortoises in the improper way due to the lack of knowledge presented back then. So they essentially had to go through a learning curve and it took time, as well as doing things improperly for years before they corrected it. However now that there is updated information for all of us, we might not raise/make those mistakes for years and could potentially miss that extensive learning curve. We instead can focus on raising them with proper care because of the present knowledge without having to make so many mistakes for years. Hope that made some sense 


— Gus


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## jeffjeff (Sep 28, 2014)

wellington said:


> I agree with motero. Although I dont know if I would call the type one experienced, as much as knowledgeable.



i'd agree. i think if some one learns a subject by reading watching others ect then that would make them knowledgeable. and those who are experienced have the knowledge and put that knowledge in to practice enough to be competent in doing so.


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## Yourlocalpoet (Sep 28, 2014)

G-stars said:


> Hmm why can't it be a combination of both knowledge and time? Some of the more experienced keepers here have had tortoises for decades and to no fault of themselves or anyone, have taken care of these tortoises in the improper way due to the lack of knowledge presented back then. So they essentially had to go through a learning curve and it took time, as well as doing things improperly for years before they corrected it. However now that there is updated information for all of us, we might not raise/make those mistakes for years and could potentially miss that extensive learning curve. We instead can focus on raising them with proper care because of the present knowledge without having to make so many mistakes for years. Hope that made some sense
> 
> 
> — Gus



I agree, Gus. But, you said in your reply, 'some of the more experienced keepers'
What does that mean? And how do you decide who you consider experienced? 

If someone raises only one tortoise for a decade, (like myself) with no problems and that tortoise is healthy does that make them experienced, or does the 'experienced keeper' title only come with decades of different species, dozens of tortoises, breeding, issues, and discoveries? 




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## Earth Mama (Sep 28, 2014)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> I agree, Gus. But, you said in your reply, 'some of the more experienced keepers'
> What does that mean? And how do you decide who you consider experienced?
> 
> If someone raises only one tortoise for a decade, (like myself) with no problems and that tortoise is healthy does that make them experienced, or does the 'experienced keeper' title only come with decades of different species, dozens of tortoises, breeding, issues, and discoveries?
> ...


I believe you are experienced in keeping a healthy tortoise but you may not be experienced in breeding, illness, deformity, etc. Therefore, IMO, qualifying as experienced is completely subjective and can't be definitively defined. It is fun to try though.


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## Yourlocalpoet (Sep 28, 2014)

Earth Mama said:


> I believe you are experienced in keeping a healthy tortoise but you may not be experienced in breeding, illness, deformity, etc. Therefore, IMO, qualifying as experienced is completely subjective and can't be definitively defined. It is fun to try though.



Excellent post. I'm interested in everyone's subjective 'criteria' so to speak. 


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## G-stars (Sep 28, 2014)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> I agree, Gus. But, you said in your reply, 'some of the more experienced keepers'
> What does that mean? And how do you decide who you consider experienced?
> 
> If someone raises only one tortoise for a decade, (like myself) with no problems and that tortoise is healthy does that make them experienced, or does the 'experienced keeper' title only come with decades of different species, dozens of tortoises, breeding, issues, and discoveries?
> ...



What I meant by that was the keepers who have had then for decades. I decide who is experienced by how long they have been raising tortoises and how successful they are at it. How healthy their tortoises appear to look. I mean no disrespect but there are keepers who in my opinion keep tortoises in less then ideal conditions for many years, so time isn't the only factor. It's time combined with knowledge and applied. 

Yes I would definitely consider your input on the species of tortoise you have kept for a decade. No I don't believe you have to raise different amount of species to be an experienced keeper. If someone keeps a small group of sulcatas for over a decade in ideal conditions. That to me is an experienced keeper. But of course there are some who are experienced with many tortoises and have seen just about everything. Doesn't mean that they can't always learn something new though. 


— Gus


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## WillTort2 (Sep 28, 2014)

I feel that having observed the interaction and post between some of the more experienced I've learned whose opinion I give more weight depending upon which subject and which species.

When I reply to a question posed by a new member, I'll often state that "in the opinion of some of the more experienced keepers". By utilizing this language I'm attempting to provide information to the new poster and yet indicate that I've learned much of what I know from reading and discussing that subject on this forum. Often the new poster does not have time to search and read all of the long term posts on that subject. They just want a quick informative bit of advice.

So, if I'm wrong on a bit of advice I submit, just jump in and offer a correction. I view the purpose of this forum to share information and spread the collective knowledge regarding providing a healthy habitat for tortoises and turtles.


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## G-stars (Sep 28, 2014)

WillTort2 said:


> I feel that having observed the interaction and post between some of the more experienced I've learned whose opinion I give more weight depending upon which subject and which species.
> 
> When I reply to a question posed by a new member, I'll often state that "in the opinion of some of the more experienced keepers". By utilizing this language I'm attempting to provide information to the new poster and yet indicate that I've learned much of what I know from reading and discussing that subject on this forum. Often the new poster does not have time to search and read all of the long term posts on that subject. They just want a quick informative bit of advice.
> 
> So, if I'm wrong on a bit of advice I submit, just jump in and offer a correction. I view the purpose of this forum to share information and spread the collective knowledge regarding providing a healthy habitat for tortoises and turtles.



I agree with you. 



— Gus


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## johnsonnboswell (Sep 28, 2014)

"Experienced" means been there, done that, already had some dire results offstage and learned some lessons worth sharing.


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## Turtlepete (Sep 28, 2014)

"Experienced" in what? A single species? If you keep and raise sulcatas or red foots for ten years, your experienced with that species. If you've kept dozens of taxa, semi-aquatics, terrestrials, aquatics, etc.. for 15+ years, your experience base is a lot wider.

To me, an "experienced" member is the difference between a member spouting off information they have absolutely no knowledge base in, and a member sharing information that they themselves have learned with on-hands experience with the topic species. I'm sure you can guess which is "experienced".

None of that is to say that there is absolutely anything wrong with sharing your book knowledge! But it becomes a bit destructive when a member with zero knowledge base tries to argue a point with someone much more experienced in the subject….

And another thing to add….Time does not equal experience. There are those that have kept tortoises for 40 years, doing it all wrong. Thats not experienced. There are also those that have kept turtles and tortoises for 5 years yet have quite a knowledge base through both personal experience and book smarts. You can keep turtles and tortoises for your whole life in unideal conditions, under un-proper care, and have learned absolutely nothing. Hopefully that makes sense.

But I'm pretty sure it's not used as a title as much as it is to deem someone experienced in the particular subject….


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## yillt (Sep 29, 2014)

Everyone is an expert at something whether it is how to eat 10 pieces of toast in a minute or keep a massive tortoise alive and healthy. Most of us on the forum can keep a tortoise alive and healthy so most of us are experts.


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## ZEROPILOT (Sep 29, 2014)

I am very experienced at over 35 years as a tort keeper. As I have found , however, experience does not make one an expert. I learn as I go and I've learned about as much from the collective here as I've ever picked up on my own in those decades. I am an expert at say: Antique motorcycles. Tortoises though, just a good hobbyist.


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## Yellow Turtle01 (Sep 29, 2014)

I'd think of 'experience' as working with any species, but covering all the spectrums in that species. See, someone might keep RES an nothing else, but they have had 'experience' keeping the animal, breeding, care etc. and are therefore an 'exert' of RES. 
If someone kept many species and covered everything about each one, they are an overall experienced keeper. 
If we're judging experience based on knowledge, then we might all be experts in what we're knowable in, even if you don't keep it. I'm 'knowledgeable' about keeping blue tongue skinks because I know as much as any expert keeper knows by researching, even though I don not have any. And if I'm going to go there, 'experience(d)' is an opinion, not a definition.


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## Robertchrisroph (Sep 29, 2014)

Good read. Thank you


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## Yourlocalpoet (Sep 30, 2014)

yillt said:


> Everyone is an expert at something whether it is how to eat 10 pieces of toast in a minute or keep a massive tortoise alive and healthy. Most of us on the forum can keep a tortoise alive and healthy so most of us are experts.



I don't agree. Keeping a tortoise alive and healthy in no way makes me an expert.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 30, 2014)

I really didn't become 'experienced' at tortoise-keeping until I became a member of this Forum and was shown the error of my ways. Prior to joining, I was doing it all wrong. Yes, I kept my tortoises alive for 30 some odd years, but keeping them alive is far different from having them thrive.


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## Tom (Sep 30, 2014)

I would consider someone "experienced" with a given species if they have been able to successfully keep and maintain them in all life stages for many years. I don't care to put a specific time limit on this label. Someone with 9 years experience might have better results, or simply a greater volume of experience based on number of animals, climate, problems encountered and solved, or methods of keeping, than someone with 10 years experience with a given species for example. As was mentioned someone with 30 years of experience might still have the wrong info, be raising them horribly, and not be "successful" in my opinion. I know many guys who fit this bill, and a few who will even admit it.


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## Abdulla6169 (Sep 30, 2014)

An experienced member is a credible individual that has proficient skill and valid knowledge in tortoise keeping gained over an educating period of time.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 30, 2014)

motero said:


> I think there are two categories, Type One, I learned every thing about tortoises from reading every thing about them and am only a keeper of a few years. Type Two, I have been a keeper for decades and seen first hand what is good and bad for tortoises. Type two has experience, type one has information to share.


 Then I guess there is a type three, someone who has read (maybe even written - peer reviwed, not FaceBook trite) some to a great deal, as well as kept animals in a variety of situations. Maybe even been paid to it professionaly (even some pet shop people would do well in this regard, though certainly not all) somewhere. Not any one of these is a gaurantee for expertise.

Pre electronic communication an expert was defined by the effort put out by the person seeking the information. If everyone in your circle of friends/colluegues did not know, then you would go outside that circle to get an expert's opinion, maybe the next town or a bigger better funded university, a more productive company, whatever the case maybe. Expert was defined as more succsseful than you, it's relative to a great extent. 

Your expertise might not be tortoise husbandry directly, but maybe you are good at observing the animal and seeing care deficets and meeting them in timely a enough way that the animal has a good quality of life.

I had been in a situation where people could call and ask about the care of the animal they had. I'd give a brief answer or a along one, and both were often 'wrong' according to the person asking. The brief answer was met with "is that all you know" and the long answer was met with "well I've been doing it this other way for 4 months now - and the animals is doing great".

Both of these kinds of interactions indicated to me the person was simply either not bright enough to engage in a conversation in the first place or maybe didn't really want the information at all, just wanted to go through the motions of attaining it, or only wanted that what they had already begun to do, was great, and it was my role to congradulate them on the good job. I don't know how many of those iguanas, bearded dragons, or box turtles died of a diet mostly consisting of plain lettuce.

Sorta like the thread about "Death Bowls", the bowl did not kill the animal, the keeper killed the animal. How you know your amoung the best, is because "hey, it happens to the best of us." 

This is a bit of a squirely question. What are you driving at?


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## Yourlocalpoet (Sep 30, 2014)

Will said:


> Then I guess there is a type three, someone who has read (maybe even written - peer reviwed, not FaceBook trite) some to a great deal, as well as kept animals in a variety of situations. Maybe even been paid to it professionaly (even some pet shop people would do well in this regard, though certainly not all) somewhere. Not any one of these is a gaurantee for expertise.
> 
> Pre electronic communication an expert was defined by the effort put out by the person seeking the information. If everyone in your circle of friends/colluegues did not know, then you would go outside that circle to get an expert's opinion, maybe the next town or a bigger better funded university, a more productive company, whatever the case maybe. Expert was defined as more succsseful than you, it's relative to a great extent.
> 
> ...



Me? I'm just interested in everyone's definition of a 'seasoned' or 'experienced' keeper. I know I must have an idea myself of what I consider experienced, but then the more I thought about it, I couldn't find a fair or valid definition.
Extremely enjoying everyone else's responses though. 




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## Robertchrisroph (Sep 30, 2014)

Thank You to all of You. You help so many


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Sep 30, 2014)

So do I understand this right if your 12 yrs old and you have 5 different types of torts ? And you have 30 yr old with 2diferent torts and they booth have 15 yrs with the torts . Witch is more experienced ?


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## ascott (Sep 30, 2014)

> maybe you are good at observing the animal and seeing care deficets and meeting them in timely a enough way that the animal has a good quality of life.



This is perfect....such an important thing to be able to do...truly.


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## Yourlocalpoet (Oct 1, 2014)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> So do I understand this right if your 12 yrs old and you have 5 different types of torts ? And you have 30 yr old with 2diferent torts and they booth have 15 yrs with the torts . Witch is more experienced ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using TortForum



I think that's physically impossible, for the 12 year old anyway. 


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## ascott (Oct 1, 2014)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> I think that's physically impossible, for the 12 year old anyway.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tortoise Forum




My head hurts from trying to figure that math problem....lol....


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## smarch (Oct 3, 2014)

I feel personally having the 2 terms experienced and seasoned put in front of me I see them as 2 different things.

Experienced: Been through a lot, learned a lot through experience and others, maybe keep one tortoise, maybe keep many, but you know your stuff and people come to you for advice and trust you. And you essentially know how to handle most situations on your own. 

Seasoned: You're not a newbie to tortoise keeping and you know how to read/understand your tortoises and notice if anything's wrong but may not know how to handle the problems and rely on the vet and other members here to help you in what to do. 

I consider myself seasoned. I've been through stuff, learned proper care have keep Nank alive and healthy for 2.5 years, but still heavily rely on people here for help like recently with learning to beak trim, and last spring had to bring him to the vet for not eating/lethargic that I could have handled but anxiety got the best of me, both experiences I learned from, everyone no matter what they're considered are always learning more!

(each applies to species for the most part, because I consider myself a seasoned keeper, but that applies to Russians, I've never had a sulcata, I know a lot about them but i'm certainly not seasoned in them. )


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## Tom (Oct 3, 2014)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> So do I understand this right if your 12 yrs old and you have 5 different types of torts ? And you have 30 yr old with 2diferent torts and they booth have 15 yrs with the torts . Witch is more experienced ?



Grandpa, I am bringing a guy to the TTPG this year that is a really experienced math tutor. I am going to introduce the two of you...


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## tortadise (Oct 3, 2014)

To me I see too many variables with the title "experienced". Duration to me has little to do with, but it does substantiate an aid to having experience. What that experience is a level of is determined by what sort of methods in husbandry, research, breeding, care, feeding etc... I've taken in numerous relinquishments of tortoises/turtles. Some people had them for 40 years even longer. But they knew nothing about the animals natural Eco systems, wild diets, wild temperatures, behavior etc.. You can keep any species as long as you'd like. But that does not justify any sort of experience. Especially with tortoises/turtles. They are creatures of habit. If you give them a range of temperature/humidity within a reasonable level to where they can thrive, they will will eat, drink, defecate, sleep and grow just fine. Doing this for 1-70 years does not imply an experienced level of skill. It implies to me a level of knowing how to care for a certain animal. 

Research is a huge deal to me. I try not to go with the standard of "what's everyone else do?". All my life I grew up with a passion of liking the sciences. So to me researching the entire web(like a spider web not the internets) or anything linked to a certain species is crucial for me. Weather patterns, winters, summers, wet seasons, dry seasons, native plants, predators, soil systems, sun exposure etc... This implied to keeping species to me is a start to gaining experience with whichever species desired.the way I look at it is it's an ongoing never ending research experiment of wild animals in captivity for a captive breeding and scientific notated purpose. Zoos have little implied experience to me. They fall into the category of what I mentioned earlier. They know how to take care of certain animals within a specific calendar cycle of feed it, keep it warm, and go to the next one. Will explained this very well above with the pet store analogy. 

It's like to me a college student just getting enough information to pass the tests and get a "degree". Against the other student in which they get there hands dirty, they absorb the information and understand it. They question why, and achieve the answers to questions. Where as student number one just barely passes, absorbs nothing and moves on. They both have the same degree in the end. But one has more experience than the other because they utilized it properly. Time definitely has no bearing on it whatsoever.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Oct 3, 2014)

Tom 
I'll be waiting 


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## ZEROPILOT (Oct 3, 2014)

What I was trying to say was that experience doesn't make an expert sometimes. Before I came here, I thought I was an expert.


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## Yellow Turtle01 (Oct 3, 2014)

I agree 100% with the opinion that even if your tortoise is alive, it doesn't mean it's right. The person who owns a tortoise/turtle who is merely 'alive' isn't doing it right, even though they may have 'experience' or not.


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## tglazie (Oct 4, 2014)

I think experienced means, very simply, that the particular keeper has a wide range of experiences. I consider Yvonne and Kelly very experienced, given that they have a wide knowledge of various tortoise species and that they've had to tackle some of the greatest challenges in tortoise keeping, namely dealing with illness and rehabilitation. To me, this is the most difficult test of keeping tortoises, having to fix the mistakes of humans who had their hands on the animal previously and, through their own ignorance, apathy or malice, did the animal harm. I feel that Chris and Gary are very experienced, given that they've dealt with the various Testudo species and have vast knowledge of tortoise breeding given their experiences in this regard. I feel that I am, to a lesser extent, experienced in this regard as well, having fostered numerous tortoises through my teens and early twenties. 
Now, I don't argue that experience goes hand in hand with knowledge, though it often does. All the folks I just mentioned are very knowledgeable on the subject, though some, such as Will, clearly possess knowledge that is exceptional, attained through tireless research and insatiable curiosity. But in my opinion, experience in tortoise keeping tends to go hand in hand with knowledge. 

Once again, don't get me wrong. Experience can and does yield bad tortoise keeping practices. My friend Matt was once partnered up with this fellow who runs their old store. When it came to light that use of alfalfa pellets were completely inappropriate for tortoise substrate, I let Matt know this, and he stopped using it, thanking me for saving him money on feed that was better fed to rabbits. Despite having conveyed this to Matt's former partner, however, I've either been greeted with argument or polite gesture disguising dismissal. Matt's former partner sees me as having less experience than he does, which automatically means in his mind that I cannot possibly be right about this thing that he's been doing for over thirty years. 

I think that whenever I use the word "experienced," I'm not emphasizing the potential pitfalls of such a state. When I say experienced, I'm usually describing someone who I feel has been with the hobby for years, has ridden the rollercoaster of conflicting information that was out there before the founding of the forum, who has kept a wide range of species in various stages of life, and makes every effort to learn as much as possible about the animals in their care. I find that such is a natural outgrowth of an interest in tortoises, though this may simply be a result of my own personal experiences. 

Now, despite the experience of some, there are countless instances where this experience can be of little help to those who are not so experienced. As Yvonne said, keeping sulcatas in Tampa, FL is a very different experience than keeping Russians in Oakland, CA. But this is beside the point. 

T.G.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Oct 21, 2014)

Tom said:


> I would consider someone "experienced" with a given species if they have been able to successfully keep and maintain them in all life stages for many years.



 I agree with this, simply put!


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