# Table vs. Vivarium



## JohnBaker (Jun 26, 2017)

Hi all,
Still looking into a perfect home for a tbd tort. Upon arriving here I was directed to some of the excellent care guides. After reading those and several other posts about care and housing I was heavily leaning towards a showcase cage. I came across however the tortoise trust forum with some significant differences of opinion. Especially with regard to enclosed vs open housing. Is anyone here familiar with this information and testing and if so, what are arguments against that view?

I can post a link if this study isn't well known. I just wanted to ask before posting a link to another forum in case that isn't cool. Anyway not trying to stir the pot. I just want to provide the best possible home I can for my new friend! I look forward to your experience and advice on what you use. I want to do it right the first time


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## shona&shelby (Jun 26, 2017)

I'm the same I got my tortoise from a good friend who felt she didn't have enough time for her. I definitely do lol. Like yourself I'm torn between housing options and would REALLY appreciate some advice on tortoise table vs vivarium for a spur thigh tortoise


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## ZEROPILOT (Jun 26, 2017)

With species with high humidity needs, a closed chamber vivarium type makes life much easier.
There are actually several tortoise species that when young, need high humidity. I keep Redfooted and I use this setup with my young tortoises.
With an open top enclosure, there is the option to ad more room. But this type of enclosure is difficult to keep warm and or humid.
The issue then becomes size. A closed chamber enclosure of several square feet is often difficult for most keepers to make or find. And keeping a now too big for its enclosure animal outdoors can not work for everyone.
Decide on your species and think longterm.


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## teresaf (Jun 26, 2017)

Display case sounds wonderful. We see a shitload of deformed/pyramided tortoises on here. @Tom did a nice experimemt with a clutch of hatchlings he had to prove to the world that humidity not diet was what caused pyramiding. 14 raised dry and warm and 14 raised humid and warm. Results. 14 dry bumpy juveniles and 14 wet(I believe 1 was slightly bumpy) very smooth juveniles. He's been raising them closed chamber ever since. Dry ones develope hatchling failure syndrome. Dry ones get bumpy, deformed shells. Dry ones are more susceptible to toppling over and not being able to fix themselves. He, and many here have confirmed, debunked a lot of outdated info in the last 10 years.

With all that said if he says lack of ventilation is not an issue for baby tortoises then it's not. Rather it's cold ventilated air blowing on a hatchling that makes them sick and die....I raised both my Burmese mountain torts in a mostly air tight enclosure. It's MUCH easier to keep temps constant in a closed evironment. It's not like the chamber stays closed for a week! They'd run out of air. The air totally gets recirculated once or twice a day when you open it to feed and bathe him. Keep reading here and you'll see that every time you see a pyramided tort on this forum its because they were raised dry. Many folks here have benefitted from the knowledge the major breeders here on the forum have accumulated. Of course you can TRY to ventilate your "closed chamber"....good luck keeping temps and humidity where they need to be to stop the tortoise baby from getting sick. Remember, whatever you do, high humidity + high heat =happy healthy baby. High humidity + low heat(potentially from ventilation) = Respiratory infection and death. I know this is a long answer but I just wanted you to know how fervently we here on this forum have been studying this phenomenon...


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## JohnBaker (Jun 26, 2017)

Thanks, so closed for sure for babies. Same for juveniles - adult? Could a 50" x 24" x 24" last forever for a smaller tort?


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## teresaf (Jun 26, 2017)

Just first couple years...4x2 should work for quite a while but you'll need something bigger later no matter the size of tort. Even Russians need larger enclosure. Recommend size for just about everything is 4x8 but 4x6 would work for some of the smaller torts...


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## Tom (Jun 26, 2017)

JohnBaker said:


> Hi all,
> Still looking into a perfect home for a tbd tort. Upon arriving here I was directed to some of the excellent care guides. After reading those and several other posts about care and housing I was heavily leaning towards a showcase cage. I came across however the tortoise trust forum with some significant differences of opinion. Especially with regard to enclosed vs open housing. Is anyone here familiar with this information and testing and if so, what are arguments against that view?
> 
> I can post a link if this study isn't well known. I just wanted to ask before posting a link to another forum in case that isn't cool. Anyway not trying to stir the pot. I just want to provide the best possible home I can for my new friend! I look forward to your experience and advice on what you use. I want to do it right the first time



The problem with an open table is that most homes do not have the temperatures and humidity needed for the tortoise being housed in the table. Physics dictates that the air in the table is going to mix and mingle with the air in the room and attempt to equalize. Add in air currents, heating and air conditioning, and it becomes nearly impossible to offer the correct stable conditions that help young tortoises thrive. Instead you have a cool, or hot under the bulb, dry open area that would be suitable for making beef jerky. Tables were all the rage for a long time, and some people still have not caught on to why they are not feasible for most situations in most homes.

When you close off the outside room air, then you only have to heat and humidify a small volume of air that will stay contained in your "chamber". A closed chamber requires a fraction of the electricity to heat, makes temperature and humidity maintenance easy, and creates a more stable environment for the baby. Closed chambers are _better_ for the very reasons "they" say they are bad. Reduced air flow. If you are wearing a jacket on a snow day outside, isn't reduced air flow good? Aren't you going to zip up your coat to keep the cold air out and away from your body? This is what a closed chamber does. It keeps the cold dry air out and away from your baby tortoise. An open topped enclosure is like going out in the snow with no coat and no shirt. Sure you might survive it for a while, but it certainly isn't "good" or optimal. Who decided tortoises needed all this air flow anyway? I've raised literally hundreds of them in closed chamber and 100% of them have thrived with the reduced air flow.

They say that the tortoise doesn't understand the concept of glass and will stress itself out trying to push through the invisible barrier. Sorry. This is an often repeated fantasy. I have almost 40 years of keeping 100s of turtles and tortoises in a wide variety of glass tanks that says otherwise. This is like saying that "if you touch the gas pedal in a car it will explode" to someone who has been driving a wide variety of cars for decades, and they know darn well that the cars won't explode. I think this myth started when someone put a brand new wild caught russian tortoise into a small glass tank, and the poor thing never settled down and was constantly trying to escape. The problem is/was not the glass. The problem is that the tank is too small and the animal is not acclimated to captive life yet. The tortoise would have done the same thing in a similarly size opaque wooden box. There is a trend in the UK to use tiny little enclosures, be they vivariums, or open tables, and neither is good for a tortoise. They need space. Room to roam. Walk into a UK pet shop and ask them where the 4x8' tortoise tables are. They will look at you like you are speaking a foreign language and tell you that you don't need something that large. They are simply wrong.

Open tables can work just fine for adult animals that can tolerate drier conditions and colder temperatures, but they still need to be large open tables. A large closed chamber would still be better and much more efficient when the electric bill comes. Further, closed chambers do not have to be kept hot and humid. They can be kept at any temperature or humidity level. The concept os that by closing the air inside the enclosure, it won't be so easily influenced by the temperature and humidity of the air outside the enclosure.


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## teresaf (Jun 27, 2017)

People around the world are going to Pets Shops and seeing cute little tortoises in these little glass tanks and think "why i can do that at home!". This makes absolutely no sense if you think about it. if they walk 20 feet further they'll see a kitten in a little cage but they don't think they can keep them in a little cage? The cages in Pet stores around the world are for display only and never meant to be an advertisement for how to house the animal inside. 

@Tom what do you think about the idea of making out business cards for the tortoise forum that we can buy from the tortoise Forum like we do the calendars and give them out to all the pet stores near us.


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## Tom (Jun 27, 2017)

teresaf said:


> @Tom what do you think about the idea of making out business cards for the tortoise forum that we can buy from the tortoise Forum like we do the calendars and give them out to all the pet stores near us.



I pursued this idea years ago, and I got a small stack that I was able to pass out. I never got around to getting more, but its a good idea. If you are interested, contact Josh.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jun 27, 2017)

You've found pet stores to be receptive to the offer?
That's great.


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## JohnBaker (Jun 27, 2017)

I appreciate everyone's responses. I am seriously not buying or selling here. I just want a tort and I want to buy a home indoors he can live in for 50 plus years. I have no preconceived ideas about what's best or how the big boxes do it. I was an avid reef keeper for years and have owned a few herps (green iguana, leopard gecko, red eared sliders, corn snake etc.). One thing I knew from jump was to not even go to the pet store! I understand things like UV, heat and humidity needs. I just need some help with the details and any good references because torts seem to have less info out there.

So enclosed with humidity forever? The biggest showcase cage I saw was 5' by 2' x 2'. Does everyone think that's a good cage? Please tell me what species this would be ideal for if any. I have real constraints on my ability to build and have somewhat limited space. I want to buy the ideal home I can accomodate and select a tort that fits the enviroment. I am totally open to any species I can provide a good home to. Please offer your experience!


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## Markw84 (Jun 27, 2017)

Check out animalplastics.com. They have a 3x8 enclosure I know one of our members @Shaif got one and seems very pleased. Search her threads to see her setup


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## JohnBaker (Jun 27, 2017)

I did look at animal plastics but hadn't seen that thread. Amazing cage!


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