# Should tort diets include pictures?



## Flametorch (Jul 16, 2009)

I've seen a lot of tortoise diets for one species of tortoise, and sometimes the lists are so different its hard to choose which is truly safe to use. However, at the same no one should religiously follow a diet that not many people go by, nor should they not trust it. As well many people could always compare other sources.

Personally, I'd prefer pictures because I guess it shows the outcome of the diet, and can help make the control of shell growth more maintainable (At the same time might as well give the temperature and overall care which at that point is a caresheet which even then most people can misinterpret :/ but that's oh well) and unless someone were to get paid to make these caresheets or charge viewers, I would understand if someone used their own personal experience to write them (out of kindness  ) instead of conducting true scientific research. I'm not saying that people wouldn't go out of their way to do this, in fact I've seen some caresheets with chemical compositions written with them. 

I just think it'd be easier to trust some proof even though its almost like a why bother, I guess I like the more info the better lol. As well pictures can help configure diets to be better. Then again at the same time some tortoises DNA are laced with higher/lower possibility of shell and health conditions (such as the saying not everyone's the same)


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## Yvonne G (Jul 16, 2009)

So, what you're saying is if you print a care sheet off the internet, the author of that care sheet should have included pictures of his tortoises that have been taken care of in that manner?

Terry Kilgore, of www.turtletary.com and www.redfoots.com has plenty of pictures on his web sites of 2nd and 3rd generation redfoots that he has raised the way he tells others to do. But I know of no other site that does this. Ed Pirog has posted pictures of his tortoises showing perfect growth after using Mazuri Tortoise Diet for years.

Or are you saying you want US, here on the forum, to post pictures of our tortoises? We don't have them all in one spot, but most of us have posted pictures of our tortoises at one time or another.

YVonne


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## Flametorch (Jul 16, 2009)

lol I meant caresheets from websites or pages that have tortoise diets on them, I guess this was sparked because this one lady often gave her tortoise oranges in their diet as a healthy choice in this one caresheet I read


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## Crazy1 (Jul 16, 2009)

flametorch, the problem; diet alone will not give you a smooth shell. There are many other factors that come into play. The genetics of the specific animal. Some are more prone to pyramiding than others. The amount of exercise, the amount of humidity, the amount of Animal Protein consumed by some, plant protein by others, Ca ratios, etc. all play a part in good shell growth. You have selected a good place to start but a varied nutritious diet will be the key to a good diet. The amount depends on how much exercise, types of foods it is fed etc. So I would say no there is no plan that will tell you to only feed 1 leaf of dandelion or 0.25 grams of collards a day to a hatchling leo that will work for all leos. Terry at www.turtletary.com and www.redfoots.com has set up an amount that has worked with his redfoots but even that amount can very some. 

There are no pat answers that I know of. Some people have figured out what works for them and have smooth shelled torts. Others are still working on it. What I have done with my Greek hatchlings is (mind you most breeders are not feeding one tort at a time) place enough food in the enclosure that amounts to the size of their shells combined, in the morning. When I get home from work I clean out what was not eaten and the next day I feed a little less.


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## Madkins007 (Jul 16, 2009)

I agree with the idea that if you are going to post a diet or care plan, there should be a way for us to evaluate it, but tortoises grow so slowly and there are so many variables that it would not really be as helpful as it would seem.

Its the same problem for cares and diets for humans and dogs. Lots and lots of ideas, some of which have strong validity and research, and others that just sound good but are pretty bad. Some of the worst human diets have all kinds of photos and all kinds of proof, and even experts in human foods- one of the MOST researched subjects on Earth- disagree about a lot of elements of our diet.

Look at how many different philosophies we have for raising and feeding humans, even with centuries of research and practice. Why would we expect things to be different for Red-foots or other animals? 

I look for authors who base their recommendations on a combination of experience and research, and ground it all in a solid understanding of the natural history and behaviors of the animals. I like Vinke's "South American Tortoises" book, for example, because they draw on their own experiences of raising tortoises for years, the experiences of other European keepers, and years of field research in South America. When I look at their care or diet recommendations, I can see the rationale behind it and the results of it based on the photos they printed.

But it is uncommon to find that sort of a blend of experience, research, and writing talent. There are a lot of good sites out there where the author does not have that depth to draw from themselves- but they can learn from others who can and post based on that understanding.

This is the age old question- do *I* have to be an expert with years of experience, or can I not just draw on the expertise around me? I don't have a big herd, and living in Omaha, I never will have unless I can find a bigger indoor space. My guys are usually covered in mud and dirt, and I've only raised a few of them from young babies- one was well-pyramided already and the other was a little bumpy. I could post photos, but I am not sure what that would prove at this point.

Sorry- I'm rambling. It is almost 1:30am here and I really need to get off and to bed!


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 17, 2009)

That's just one of the things that comes with research...so you can weed out the unsuitable care sheets. Also, almost anything in moderation is ok (although I still wouldn't ever feed fruit to my tort breed). Most of us here are glad to post our diet and a picture of our tortoise, but diet alone doesn't mean everything, as Robyn said. You'd also want to know about exercise, humidity, and other aspects of the tort's care.


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## Crazy1 (Jul 18, 2009)

Flametorch here is some of what the tortoise trust stated regarding Greeks:

The reason we have never provided a 'recommended quantity' to feed juveniles is quite simply because there are so many variables involved, and we feel that any such guidelines are as likely to mislead as to help. Some of these variables include 
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢	Basking and background temperatures 
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢	Amount of daily activity (influenced by temperature and light levels) 
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢	Precise make-up of the diet (protein, fiber, mineral content, etc.) 
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢	Genetic factors (see below) 
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢	Competition and behavior within a group 
Each of these has a major impact upon nutritional requirements, and clearly, is almost impossible to assess except on a highly individual basis. Therefore, attempts at formulating a "general rule" is difficult in the extreme, if not impossible. It would be excellent if it were as simple as stating "a 6 month old juvenile weighing 50 grams requires 2 grams of fresh green leaves and flowers a day" - but unfortunately, it is not that simple! Let's look at genetic factors, for example. Even within the Mediterranean Testudo complex there are huge differences in early phase growth patterns. Jill Martin, who manages our own breeding projects, makes the following observations: 
Read the rest of the info here: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/amteat.html


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## Stephanie Logan (Aug 19, 2009)

Thanks Madkins 007. I just ordered South American Tortoises from Amazon so I can get specific info and guidelines to take better care of Taco, my Chaco. There's just so much one needs to know!


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