# Please help STAT! (Straining to pass stool)



## Shaif (Aug 9, 2017)

Guys, please help if you can!

My beloved Zeus is a 1 year old Ibera Testudo. Has been straining and lifting his hind legs for 2 hours. Had a small BM in his soak 30 min ago. 

Passed this sac-like tissue just now. It looks very much like intestinal mucosa. Looks like a mushroom from the outside. Tubular. About 7-9 mm long. I cut it open and there is fecal matter in it.

What????
Is????
It????

Any help is super appreciated!

No vet in Pittsburgh with herp expertise.


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## zovick (Aug 9, 2017)

Has the tortoise been constipated lately? IE, how often does he poop? If his intestine has been blocked up, it is possible some of the mucosa became necrotic and sloughed off. Keep soaking him once or even twice daily for 20-30 minutes for several days to make sure he is passing all waste products properly.


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## mike taylor (Aug 9, 2017)

Try feeding foods high in water like Cactus no Fruits . This will help get things moving .


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## Shaif (Aug 9, 2017)

Thank you so so much for the thoughts. Yes. He has been constipated-- he only has very small BMs since I got him (one year ago). All of his bowel movements are narrow and small. If he has some necrosis, can he recover? I'm almost certain this is bowel, but it's not prolapsed. His cloaca and tail look fine. No blood anywhere.

I will give cactus and aloe tomorrow. And will soak him 2 times at least.

Thank you so much.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 9, 2017)

Yes , soaks.
Do you have pictures of his usual poops ?
There is no reason to think this one off is necrosis of anything. 
Is he still active, eating well, sleeping okay ?


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## Shaif (Aug 9, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Yes , soaks.
> Do you have pictures of his usual poops ?
> There is no reason to think this one off is necrosis of anything.
> Is he still active, eating well, sleeping okay ?




Thanks, Adam.
I don't have pics of his normal poo, but I have always seen that his are much narrower than any other tort. Narrow and small-- more like guinea pig stools. 

I will definitely soak. 

thank you.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 9, 2017)

Well, in the face of any evidence to the contrary, perhaps, just maybe this was a blockage in Zeus's system which has now been passed. 
Fingers crossed and wait for the next poop !


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## leigti (Aug 9, 2017)

Greek tortoises should not have fruit, try cucumber. It's basically just water.


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## Shaif (Aug 9, 2017)

leigti said:


> Greek tortoises should not have fruit, try cucumber. It's basically just water.



Ok. Thank you. I will give cactus and cucumber tomorrow. 
Man, I hope he's ok. But What came out looked very bad.


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## leigti (Aug 9, 2017)

Shaif said:


> Ok. Thank you. I will give cactus and cucumber tomorrow.
> Man, I hope he's ok. But What came out looked very bad.


Well, the good news is it is out. Better than staying in there I guess.


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## Shaif (Aug 10, 2017)

It's looking bad for my poor baby. He hadn't moved much at all today. I gave fresh cucumber and cactus chopped in tiny pieces, but he has no interest in food. He slept through his soak. I hope he's not in pain.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 10, 2017)

I think you need to go to a vet.
Show the photo of what he passed. 
Have you tried the vets listed here ?
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pennsylvania.29719/
We are sending our warmest thoughts and best wishes to poor little Zeus.


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## Shaif (Aug 10, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> I think you need to go to a vet.
> Show the photo of what he passed.
> Have you tried the vets listed here ?
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pennsylvania.29719/
> We are sending our warmest thoughts and best wishes to poor little Zeus.




Thank you so much, Adam. Truly appreciated.

Yes, I agree. My baby needs a vet. Sadly, I have already combed the list above. The "herp specialists" here all have very limited chelonian experience. I have gone (aabout 6 mos ago) to the one with the most tort patients, and she was wrong. Had it not been for the Forum, my Zeus would have been in bad shape. It wasn't even her fault-- she just didn't know as much as the kind and more experienced people here. 

I've been reading anything I can get my hands on to try to help my Zeus. I came across old threads saying car rides and vibration can help.

So as soon as I got home from office, I took Zeus for a spin in the Maserati. In sport mode. That's a lot of vibration. He had a small bowel movement. But I'll take that as a small victory.

And I'll keep reading and learning and taking any suggestions anyone has.

I'll do whatever I can! And I thank anyone who has some help or experience to offer.

Thank you again!


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## Shaif (Aug 11, 2017)

Shaif said:


> I took Zeus to a vet-- he's not a herp specialist, but was the best I could find.
> He said colitis most likely and gave me metronidazole/flagyl and a probiotic.
> 
> Does anyone have experience with the Med? Zeus is very small-- should I try to mix it in his food? His appetite is very low for last few days.
> ...


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 11, 2017)

I'm afraid i don't know
Try posting in the Health section to see if you get more responses


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## Shaif (Aug 12, 2017)

zovick said:


> Has the tortoise been constipated lately? IE, how often does he poop? If his intestine has been blocked up, it is



Hi Zovick,
I'm sorry to trouble you. I took the tort to a vet--but he wasn't a herp vet. He told me to administer Flagyl for colitis. We had no stool sample to give because Zeus has has not produced anything since the scary BM that I posted the pics of.
I have not given the med as yet. I'm loathe to treat without a diagnosis.
Has this ever happened to a tort of yours? If so, what did you do? 

Thank you very very sincerely for any advice or even ideas that you might have.


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## rolley (Aug 12, 2017)

When my tort was not pooping I gave him coccumber and some aloe Vera salad...this might work for your tort.


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## Kasia (Aug 12, 2017)

@Shaif
About the probiotics you ask...I have unfortunately researched the same thing...
There is non except another same species tortoise healthy poop administered orally  or spread in your tortoise soak.
I used Metronidazole on my leo heavy infestation and it is an ultimate healthy gut flora killer. It took few months to recover after the treatment. His poop still stinks unusually bad. I would not recommend metronidazole treatment unless your 150% sure that is needed.
Did you noticed loose stools before the straining/constipation?


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## Gillian M (Aug 13, 2017)

leigti said:


> Greek tortoises should not have fruit, try cucumber. It's basically just water.


What about lettuce?


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## Gillian M (Aug 13, 2017)

Hi @Shaif . Any news as far as your tort is concerned?

Hope to hear he's better.

Please keep us updated, and good luck!


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## zovick (Aug 13, 2017)

Shaif said:


> Hi Zovick,
> I'm sorry to trouble you. I took the tort to a vet--but he wasn't a herp vet. He told me to administer Flagyl for colitis. We had no stool sample to give because Zeus has has not produced anything since the scary BM that I posted the pics of.
> I have not given the med as yet. I'm loathe to treat without a diagnosis.
> Has this ever happened to a tort of yours? If so, what did you do?
> ...



Hi. I don't think it would hurt anything to try using the Flagyl. After you have given the tortoise the full course of treatments with Flagyl, you can restore the normal gut flora by putting Bene-Bac powder on his food. When you look for Bene-Bac just be sure to get the type used for reptiles and birds because there is another type for mammals.


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## Markw84 (Aug 13, 2017)

I'm tending to agree with Bill @zovick here. Metronidazole - Flagyl is the drug of choice for flagellates A common sign of over infestation of Flagellates is mucous laden stools. At this point I would think that is a good course of action. The problem is with not wanting to eat and extreme lethargy is indicating the issue is getting worse - so something needs to be done.


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## Kasia (Aug 13, 2017)

I have limited expirience but in protozoa I would expect diahorea not severe constipation. No stool sample or a swab was examined under microscope. I would not assume that Flagyl is what he needs... Probably a good vet and more diagnostic work would be a better idea.


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## zovick (Aug 13, 2017)

Kasia said:


> I have limited expirience but in protozoa I would expect diahorea not severe constipation. No stool sample or a swab was examined under microscope. I would not assume that Flagyl is what he needs... Probably a good vet and more diagnostic work would be a better idea.



I understand what you are saying, but he has already stated that there are no reptile vets in his area, so he went to another vet who has already given him the medication. That being the case, if he has bought and paid for the medication, he may as well use it, IMHO.

Second point is that perhaps the tortoise is not constipated, but rather feeling pain in its gut which is causing the posturing which has been observed.


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## Kasia (Aug 13, 2017)

I do understand and respect your point. Mine is that I don't see as much benefit to it as you and Mark.


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## Shaif (Aug 13, 2017)

Kasia said:


> @Shaif
> About the probiotics you ask...I have unfortunately researched the same thing...
> There is non except another same species tortoise healthy poop administered orally  or spread in your tortoise soak.
> I used Metronidazole on my leo heavy infestation and it is an ultimate healthy gut flora killer. It took few months to recover after the treatment. His poop still stinks unusually bad. I would not recommend metronidazole treatment unless your 150% sure that is needed.
> Did you noticed loose stools before the straining/constipation?





Thank you. I agree that it is difficult to treat without a diagnosis. And like you said, every Drug has side effects.


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## Kasia (Aug 13, 2017)

How is he doing?


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## Shaif (Aug 13, 2017)

zovick said:


> I understand what you are saying, but he has already stated that there are no reptile vets in his area, so he went to another vet who has already given him the medication. That being the case, if he has bought and paid for the medication, he may as well use it, IMHO.
> 
> Second point is that perhaps the tortoise is not constipated, but rather feeling pain in its gut which is causing the posturing which has been observed.




Very very very much appreciated. And I think you are right-- at this point I need to at least try something. 
I'm mixing the Med in some cucumber and will try to feed it.

Thank you so much for helping. I feel lost.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 13, 2017)

The cucumber will help flush the system and get moisture inside Zeus, too. 
Worth a try at this point, I feel.


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## Kasia (Aug 13, 2017)

Did you consider getting back to your vet and asking him for a cloaca swab, blood work and a X-ray? Results are yours so if you want to consult somebody else you already have them... just saying...


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## Shaif (Aug 13, 2017)

Guys!!!!

I was mixing the Med to give to Zeus. And I was soaking him. He was straining so so much. There was a very very large fecal ball in his cloaca. It was really hard and stuck. I watched him try to work it out, but he couldn't. So I got tweezers. 
I gently took hold of it and wiggled. I did this several times.
A giant encapsulated ball of dense feces came out. It was half the size of Zeus.
I've put it in a bag and will take it to the vet tomorrow.

Zeus still will not eat, but he is walking around and is more alert.

I will keep you posted as soon as I learn anything.

Seriously, THANK YOU! All your thoughts and ideas and experience is incredibly helpful.

For now, I'll keep soaking and offering cucumber and opunta. 

You guys are the best.


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## Kasia (Aug 13, 2017)

Yeeey.....
His poor little butt...


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## Kasia (Aug 13, 2017)

It's strange how often TFO people will be so happy about a huge POoP
LOL


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## Shaif (Aug 13, 2017)

Kasia said:


> It's strange how often TFO people will be so happy about a huge POoP
> LOL




LOL! Yes. 

It was like the poor tortoise was delivering a baby.


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## zovick (Aug 13, 2017)

Going back to something I said a while ago, if the tortoise's intestinal tract has been impacted (blocked) for a long time, it is quite possible that there is necrotic bowel tissue caused by lack of circulation due to pressure on the blood vessels from the large object. This could explain that previous mass which he passed.

IMHO, giving the tortoise some type of antibiotics at this point is a good idea because necrotic tissue often becomes infected. The Flagyl is a good start, but this tortoise is not out of the woods yet. Necrotic bowel tissue is a dangerous thing. Hopefully he passed this mass before the bowel became necrotic, but only time will tell now.


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## zovick (Aug 13, 2017)

Shaif said:


> Guys!!!!
> 
> I was mixing the Med to give to Zeus. And I was soaking him. He was straining so so much. There was a very very large fecal ball in his cloaca. It was really hard and stuck. I watched him try to work it out, but he couldn't. So I got tweezers.
> I gently took hold of it and wiggled. I did this several times.
> ...




You should refrigerate the fecal ball in a sealed plastic bag, but do not freeze it.


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## Shaif (Aug 13, 2017)

zovick said:


> Going back to something I said a while ago, if the tortoise's intestinal tract has been impacted (blocked) for a long time, it is quite possible that there is necrotic bowel tissue caused by lack of circulation due to pressure on the blood vessels from the large object. This could explain that previous mass which he passed.
> 
> IMHO, giving the tortoise some type of antibiotics at this point is a good idea because necrotic tissue often becomes infected. The Flagyl is a good start, but this tortoise is not out of the woods yet. Necrotic bowel tissue is a dangerous thing. Hopefully he passed this mass before the bowel became necrotic, but only time will tell now.




Absolutely agree. Necrosis would be horrible. And passing such a large stool will definitely have damaged his bowel. I've been trying to get the flagyl in his mouth. He won't eat, so mixing it in cucumber didn't work. I can't open his tiny mouth to get a syringe in it.
I got frustrated and had to stop-- I don't want to hurt him. 
I'll try again though.


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## Gillian M (Aug 14, 2017)

Shaif said:


> LOL! Yes.
> 
> It was like the poor tortoise was delivering a baby.


I seem to have understood that things are better. Right?

Hope to hear a big "YES!"


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## Shaif (Aug 14, 2017)

Gillian Moore said:


> I seem to have understood that things are better. Right?
> 
> Hope to hear a big "YES!"




Thank you, Gillian. I don't know. Zeus still will not eat, and I can't get the medicine in him. I'm soaking him 3x per day and I give him cucumber and cactus, but he just walks back to his hide and sleeps all day.


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## zovick (Aug 15, 2017)

Shaif said:


> Thank you, Gillian. I don't know. Zeus still will not eat, and I can't get the medicine in him. I'm soaking him 3x per day and I give him cucumber and cactus, but he just walks back to his hide and sleeps all day.



The tortoise needs to have a feeding tube put in so you can give him adequate nutrition plus the proper dosages of medications without him having to eat anything. This tube is inserted into the stomach through a small incision in the neck and it will not keep the tortoise from eating on his own when and if it wants to do so. If this is not done, I think there is a good chance that your tortoise will die from this problem he is having. You need to take him to a reptile vet who can do this. Post your zip code and I will search for the nearest one to you.

Are there any vet schools in the Pittsburgh area? That is another option, plus if there are, there is a better chance of there being a reptile vet in the general area who trained at the school and then went into private practice.


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## Shaif (Aug 15, 2017)

Oh. Thank you. I have looked for vets-- even the ones who say they take exotics and herp people are not true specialists.

I'm in zip code 15044. And I thank you for any info you can share.

You are very kind.


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## zovick (Aug 15, 2017)

zovick said:


> The tortoise needs to have a feeding tube put in so you can give him adequate nutrition plus the proper dosages of medications without him having to eat anything. This tube is inserted into the stomach through a small incision in the neck and it will not keep the tortoise from eating on his own when and if it wants to do so. If this is not done, I think there is a good chance that your tortoise will die from this problem he is having. You need to take him to a reptile vet who can do this. Post your zip code and I will search for the nearest one to you.
> 
> Are there any vet schools in the Pittsburgh area? That is another option, plus if there are, there is a better chance of there being a reptile vet in the general area who trained at the school and then went into private practice.



Without knowing your zip code, I found these two reptile vets who are listed as being within 50 miles of Pittsburgh, PA:

Edward R. Bennett
5354 William Flynn Hwy
Ste 203
Gibsonia
Pennsylvania
15044-9650
United States
(724) 444-6600

Craig Hill
1 Gibralter Way
Greensburg
Pennsylvania
15601-5613
United States
724-216-5174


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## zovick (Aug 15, 2017)

The two above are listed on the Association of Reptile and Amphibian Vets web site as being exotics vets. They are also the same two who come up when searching within 50 miles of your zip code and for Pittsburgh, PA.

I suggest that you decide which one is closest to you, then call him for an appointment. You could ask when you call if they can insert a gastric feeding tube into a tortoise.


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## Shaif (Aug 15, 2017)

zovick said:


> The two above are listed on the Association of Reptile and Amphibian Vets web site as being exotics vets. They are also the same two who come up when searching within 50 miles of your zip code and for Pittsburgh, PA.
> 
> I suggest that you decide which one is closest to you, then call him for an appointment. You could ask when you call if they can insert a gastric feeding tube into a tortoise.




Thank you very much. 

I actually called this first number last week. He was away for continuing education. I will call first thing tomorrow.

But this feeding tube sounds pretty intense. I'll do it for sure if it will help Zeus, but I worry about pain. He's really so tiny-- only 60 grams. 

I'll keep you posted though.

The stool was sent Monday, so hopefully I will have an idea what's going on there soon.


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## zovick (Aug 15, 2017)

Feeding by tube is a proven way to save tortoises which will not eat on their own. You can also give exact doses of any medications which are needed since you just squeeze it into the tube via and wash it down with a little water. The tortoises aren't bothered by it at all, plus they can still eat on their own if they want.

How long has it been since your tortoise ate? It really seems to me that tube feeding him is his best chance to survive. He needs something in his gut to regain his strength. How else will that happen if he doesn't eat?


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## Shaif (Aug 15, 2017)

zovick said:


> Feeding by tube is a proven way to save tortoises which will not eat on their own. You can also give exact doses of any medications which are needed since you just squeeze it into the tube via and wash it down with a little water. The tortoises aren't bothered by it at all, plus they can still eat on their own if they want.
> 
> How long has it been since your tortoise ate? It really seems to me that tube feeding him is his best chance to survive. He needs something in his gut to regain his strength. How else will that happen if he doesn't eat?




Ok. I'll do it. I'll take Zeus tomorrow (thank goodness I have a day off). I just hope this guy does these procedures! 

I'll ask to speak to the vet personally. I'm sure the decision will be made in the first 2 minutes of discussion.

I was a resident once (of human patients). Experience matters. Trust me.

Again, I thank you.


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## zovick (Aug 16, 2017)

Shaif said:


> Ok. I'll do it. I'll take Zeus tomorrow (thank goodness I have a day off). I just hope this guy does these procedures!
> 
> I'll ask to speak to the vet personally. I'm sure the decision will be made in the first 2 minutes of discussion.
> 
> ...



Yes, I know that quite well. I am a dentist who ran a very busy oral surgery clinic for two years in the US Army from 1971-73, then went into private practice and have been doing dentistry continuously from 1967 to the present. If the vet doesn't feel capable of doing the procedure successfully, he will tell you and send you to someone else.


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## zovick (Aug 16, 2017)

@Shaif What happened today?


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## Shaif (Aug 16, 2017)

zovick said:


> @Shaif What happened today?




I called the one within an hour from me. He has no appointments until Tuesday. I even begged for an emergency appointment. No dice.
So I keep soaking Zeus and placing him right in a food plate of cucumber and cactus. I have 2 cameras in the enclosure and can rewind/view everything. Zeus still hasn't eaten. But he passed another very large, very hard bowel movement. Yes, I know it's odd, but I dissected the BM to see if I could learn anything. This one looks normal to the naked eye. Just huge. Like a marble and hard like a cranberry.
I don't know what that means. But I wish veterinary medicine was like human medicine. We don't turn anyone away.


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## zovick (Aug 16, 2017)

Did you ask if this vet can place the feeding tube when you do get to see him? Did you make an appointment for Tuesday?


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## Shaif (Aug 16, 2017)

zovick said:


> Did you ask if this vet can place the feeding tube when you do get to see him? Did you make an appointment for Tuesday?




His secretary thinks he may be able to but has never seen it.
My hopes are low. And no, I'll be working on Tuesday. I can't make an appointment then. 

I do still have an appointment with my first vet for Friday. I changed my work schedule to make that one.


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## Shaif (Aug 17, 2017)

Sorry if these updates are annoying. I feel like you are going through this with me. 

Zeus ate today. Quite a bit! Of wet, mushy, Mazuri. Right after a soak.

I know this might not mean very much, but hopefully it's a good sign!

I still have the follow up appointment with non-herp vet tomorrow. 

Thank you for caring.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 17, 2017)

Shaif said:


> Sorry if these updates are annoying. I feel like you are going through this with me.
> 
> Zeus ate today. Quite a bit! Of wet, mushy, Mazuri. Right after a soak.
> 
> ...


Yaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Go Zeus! Well done! 
That's excellent news. 
Please keep up with the updates, cos we do care.


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## threeboxerlover (Aug 17, 2017)

Yay! I have been following along reading each entry on Zeus' progress. Great news that he ate!!!


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## Pearly (Aug 17, 2017)

.


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## Pearly (Aug 17, 2017)

Pearly said:


> .


Fingers and toes crossed for you and Zeus.


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## Shaif (Aug 17, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Yaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Go Zeus! Well done!
> That's excellent news.
> Please keep up with the updates, cos we do care.




Thank you, Adam! Much appreciated!


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## Shaif (Aug 17, 2017)

Pearly said:


> Fingers and toes crossed for you and Zeus.



Thank you! So much.


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## Shaif (Aug 17, 2017)

threeboxerlover said:


> Yay! I have been following along reading each entry on Zeus' progress. Great news that he ate!!!




Thank you! I'm choosing to be cautiously optimistic!


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## TammyJ (Aug 18, 2017)

Wishing and hoping, it's great that he ate! All the very very best.


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## Shaif (Aug 19, 2017)

TammyJ said:


> Wishing and hoping, it's great that he ate! All the very very best.




Very, very sincere thanks, Tammy. Today was a good day!


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## Shaif (Aug 21, 2017)

Hi friends!

I could use some advice if you have any.

Zeus is now acting like his old self. He's never been an active guy, but he basks and eats like before. 

I got the results from his fecal test. They show pinworms (greater than 30). The vet said I could consider panacur, but that some torts are just fine with pinworms. The decision is mine.

I read a post by Deadhead Vet that said he does not treat pinworms. What do you guys think?

Thank you!


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 21, 2017)

It's not a problem I've experienced. Indeed, I don't know if my wild caught tortoise or the others I help care for here have parasites as they've never been tested for them.
But the general impression i get from the many posts on the subject I've read is what deadheadvet said, i would only treat if it becomes a problem and large numbers of worms can clearly be seen in the poop. Just my opinion.
So very glad that Zeus seems to be recovering and is back to normal.


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## Kasia (Aug 21, 2017)

Shaif said:


> Hi friends!
> 
> I could use some advice if you have any.
> 
> ...


If he eats fine and gains weight you don't need to. From mine expirience if the infestation is heavy you notice very quickly lack of apetite/not eating at all and/or weight loss/no weight gain if his little like your Zeus. 

I feed weeds from the field near by my house and I deworm at least one of my torts during summer every year due the symptoms. Either that or I would have to buy all the food from the store. 

I never noticed any side effects from panacur. Mine torts get well very quickly after it and I don't find it harmful in comparison to e.g. metronidazole/Flagyl you was ready to use.


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## Markw84 (Aug 21, 2017)

Shaif said:


> Hi friends!
> 
> I could use some advice if you have any.
> 
> ...


I agree that pinworms are not necessarily bad. Some of the most recent research shows they indeed may be considered beneficial gut flora in "normal" numbers. The tend to aid in digestion and the breakdown of fibers in the diet. However, since they are a direct cycle parasite, they can build up to levels that can become harmful. Direct cycle means that the worms lay eggs which then are present in the enclosure and water. The tortoise can eat those eggs along with its food and then reintroduce more pinworms. In the wild, roaming about and not using the same water dish to also poop in, the eggs never have a chance to build up to dangerous levels. In a captive enclosure - that is a different story. Especially if there is a group of tortoises. If numbers were to build up to unnatural levels, it can lead to health issues such as loss of appetite and weight as well as sometimes pose an impaction risk.

So, I would not automatically treat for pinworms simply because they are present. I would weigh my tortoise regularly and watch to see it's gaining consistently, if young and growing, or if adult, at least maintaining a healthy weight. A monthly record of weight is a valuable monitoring tool for any tortoise.

Panacur (Fenbendazole) is the drug of choice for treatment if you decide to treat. It has an extremely wide range of safety. In tests it shows no detrimental effects even at absurdly high doses. So it is a "safe" drug to use for this. However, it also will kill off other beneficial gut flora which the tortoise needs for proper digestion. As heavy grazers, with high fiber needs, the gut flora is extremely important. So I would also recommend a probiotic added to food after treatment.


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## Shaif (Aug 21, 2017)

Thank you-- this input is so very helpful.

I'm thinking I may treat Zeus, as he has always been slow to gain weight. And I would hate for him to get sick (again). 

But now I need to decide what to do with my other babies in the same enclosure.....
And cleaning out the enclosure.... that's a lot of coconut coir!

The thought about a probiotic is good too. Thank you!


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