# How to create bio active substrate



## Team Gomberg (Jan 9, 2013)

Lately I have read some threads about people with bio active substrate for their indoor tortoise/turtle enclosures.

Is it as simple to create as adding just a few pill bugs and earthworms?

For those of you with this type of set up, can you run through a basic "how to" create one for someone interested in trying it?
Can you list out any pros and cons you have?

I use clean plain dirt from my yard for my indoor set up. I have never seen any bugs in my enclosure and don't battle gnats but the thought of a bio active substrate sometimes crosses my mind...

Thanks


----------



## Thalatte (Jan 9, 2013)

Well one way to create it is feed your turtle bugs that can escape out of their bowl...

Bio active substrate is great as it does all the cleanup for you, keeps mold down, aerates the soil, and naturally fertilizes any plants. Only down side I know of is it startles me when i see the the soil move it if the corner if my eye. 

To create it you will need damp soil that isn't packed down too much as the bugs need to be able to move. Soil wih high clay or rocks isnt the best choice, instead look for soil or I use peat moss and sand combo.
Then you can ether dig for worms or go to a bait shop and snag a few cups of earthworms/red wigglers to dump on too of the soil. They healthy worms will dig down by them selves and the weak or sick worms will stay on top and dry out.
I don't have pill bugs in my enclosure instead I have mealworms and beetles. Other people have used springtails (a popular choice as they remain small) and the corpse beetles (they only eat dead things and will not eat your tort/turtle). All of these bugs can be found online or if you have local feeder insect breeders a lot of them use these bugs to clean the colonies.


----------



## Moozillion (Jan 9, 2013)

Thalatte said:


> Well one way to create it is feed your turtle bugs that can escape out of their bowl...
> 
> Bio active substrate is great as it does all the cleanup for you, keeps mold down, aerates the soil, and naturally fertilizes any plants. Only down side I know of is it startles me when i see the the soil move it if the corner if my eye.
> 
> ...



Do you know where to get springtails? I've heard about them but I don't even know what they look like-


----------



## Edna (Jan 9, 2013)

An amazing array of insects are present in my enclosures having come in or spontaneously evolved (lol) in my soils/substrates. I don't worry about what they are called. The only things I have added are the pill bugs and earthworms. The only ones that really creeped me out were the centipedes, and those were only in one enclosure and easily gotten rid of. Moisture and deep substrate are the keys, I think.


----------



## Yellow Turtle (Jan 9, 2013)

Edna said:


> An amazing array of insects are present in my enclosures having come in or spontaneously evolved (lol) in my soils/substrates. I don't worry about what they are called. The only things I have added are the pill bugs and earthworms. The only ones that really creeped me out were the centipedes, and those were only in one enclosure and easily gotten rid of. Moisture and deep substrate are the keys, I think.



I wonder how you got the centipede in the enclosure. Do you just use soil from your garden for the substrate.


----------



## Edna (Jan 9, 2013)

I don't use soil from my garden because our "soil" here is alkaline sand. I use plants from outside, bark from a big cottonwood tree that was cut down next door, rocks from the old rock garden here, and dry leaves in fall and winter. The centipedes came in a crevice of a rock or the bark, or tucked into the roots of a plant. They were interesting and apparently harmless, just very creepy. The dry leaves in particular carry and support tiny bugs, and the torts seem to enjoy them, too.


----------



## RosieRedfoot (Jan 9, 2013)

I've found that my soil started moving on it's own as well. And any of Rosie's poo that I don't clean up (or can't find) get eaten up by these little insects. I think it's the springtails but not entirely certain since they're so small and only eat bits of food she doesn't (or poo). Haven't had any gnat issues either... yet. Her enclosure is always above 70% humidity (sometimes up to 90%) and over 77*F-86*F. Thought of buying pillbugs but may just wait until spring and they start coming out and add some from outside.


----------



## Thalatte (Jan 9, 2013)

Springtails can be bought from petco.com, Josh's frogs, Azdr.com, fauna classifieds, and pretty much most dart frog or roach breeders.
A simple google search will pull up more cites. I bought mine from a roach breeder when I bought my roaches.


----------



## Team Gomberg (Jan 9, 2013)

are pill bugs also called rolly pollies? or is that a different bug?

if you have a Tort that doesn't eat bugs..would that still be ok in the enclosure?


----------



## Millerlite (Jan 9, 2013)

So for a enclosure how much springtails do you put? Also worms Ect. So you just dump them into the enclosure? Mix them in or will they dig in and do everything on their own?


----------



## pdrobber (Jan 10, 2013)

asking for springtails?! I bake my substrate periodically to get rid of them...


----------



## Edna (Jan 10, 2013)

Team Gomberg said:


> are pill bugs also called rolly pollies? or is that a different bug?
> 
> if you have a Tort that doesn't eat bugs..would that still be ok in the enclosure?



Yes, pill bugs and rolly pollies are the same thing. 
I have Hermanns torts, and they are not generally bug eaters. I have seen them eat slugs when they find them on a leaf, and they get very excited over any earthworms they find. Having a deep substrate reduces the chances that the worms will get eaten.
Wild tortoises don't live in and didn't evolve in sterile, tightly controlled environments. The heat, moisture, and substrates we provide in our enclosures are attractive to other little critters as well. Healthy living soil is loaded with tiny life forms.


----------



## Thalatte (Jan 10, 2013)

You can do a small cup of worms and springtails as they will reproduce on their own. And yes all you have to do us dump them in and they will dig down themselves.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 10, 2013)

This is a really interesting thread, thanks for starting it. 

I had several colonies of tortoises in Philly, when I lived there, and without my placing them in the stock tanks, I had mealworms/beetles in the tortoise enclosures. Rarely if ever near the surface during 'day time', but they would come up and clean everything at night. The enclosure that had my russians had surprize hatchlings in it, so I don't think the mealworms interfered with the eggs or the soft hatchlings. Though after the first surprise hatchlings I was more vigilant about searching for eggs.

The source for the mealworms must have been from some I kept for some leopard geckos.

An informal conversation with some people I worked with at the zoo, was full of warning about the mealworms predating on the tortoises, but no ill affect was ever found.

Other tortoises with mealworms were hinge-backs, marginated, pancakes, and flat tails.

Will


----------



## Team Gomberg (Jan 10, 2013)

ok, im trying it. 

i lifted some rocks from the outdoor tortoise pen and decided to start with 2 pill bugs and 1 earthworm.


----------



## Edna (Jan 10, 2013)

Team Gomberg said:


> ok, im trying it.
> 
> i lifted some rocks from the outdoor tortoise pen and decided to start with 2 pill bugs and 1 earthworm.



If you can find a few more of each critter that would help ensure population increase. Worms each have the organs of both sexes (and I don't know the scientific term for that condition) but they still need another worm to reproduce with We don't have a bait shop in town, but the grocery store has a bait 'fridge. I have purchased nightcrawlers from them several times and they have all been healthy and active.


----------



## Team Gomberg (Jan 10, 2013)

Edna,

what type of tort/turtle do you keep with bio active substrate? 

what do you keep in there other than nightcrawlers?

thanks


----------



## Millerlite (Jan 10, 2013)

I need to find some pill bugs. Going to start with 20 night crawlers in my tortoise enclosure and idk how many mealworms.


----------



## Thalatte (Jan 10, 2013)

5-10 mealworms will do nicely.


----------



## Millerlite (Jan 10, 2013)

Doesn't seem like much? My enclosure is 6 foot by 2feet but guess they would breed and double


----------



## Thalatte (Jan 10, 2013)

Mealworms seem to reproduce quickly but you can add more if you wish.


----------



## Edna (Jan 10, 2013)

Team Gomberg said:


> Edna,
> 
> what type of tort/turtle do you keep with bio active substrate?
> 
> ...



I have four young adult Hermanns in two large (36x72) Vision tubs, the torts having access to both tubs via a ramp. The substrate in the cooler, planted tub is 8 inches of organic garden soil with some cypress mulch as a bottom layer. The substrate in the warmer tub is 6 inches of 50/50 soil and mulch, with some areas of play sand. Both tubs contain nightcrawlers and pill bugs. The pill bugs are more obvious in the warmer tub. The nightcrawlers can be seen in the cooler tub, engaging in "worm congress" on the surface when the lights come on. I haven't seen any little worm babies, but I don't disturb the soil unless I'm adding a new plant, and then minimally. There are other types of bugs in there as well, even some tiny spiders, but I have not added these or identified them. I have not seen slugs or flat snails in this enclosure, but they could be in there. Slugs can travel in on houseplants, and flat snails can be in plants or lettuces.




Millerlite said:


> I need to find some pill bugs. Going to start with 20 night crawlers in my tortoise enclosure and idk how many mealworms.



I started out looking for pill bugs under rocks and could never find them in my yard. When I finally found some it was under bag of leaves. Once I figured out where to look it was easy to gather a couple of dozen. Ironically, in the enclosure the one place I can reliably find them is under the feeding rock


----------



## MasterOogway (Jan 10, 2013)

I would love to see a picture of your set up the of the vision tubs! I am enjoying this thread too


----------



## Team Gomberg (Jan 10, 2013)

thanks for sharing edna!

i had fun watching my 2 little pill bugs crawl around while my tort was up on the basking rock. then i watched the worm wriggle into the soil by the hide (flower pot on its side)

we'll see how this goes so far.. i probably will add more. but i wanted to start with few numbers in case i chickened out and wanted to remove them. lol.


----------



## stasisdc5 (Jan 11, 2013)

my set up consists of a 1" layer of lava rock. then 4-5" inches of a mixture of garden soil, play sand, and top soil.

I also set up a tube in one corner of my tank that sticks out of the substrate and leads down into the lava rock.

I would then attach a funnel to the tube to pour water through the tube. the water line should be right below where the substrate and lava rock meet. water will keep the bottom layer of the substrate moist.

I bought red worms from a bait shop and searched under rocks and logs in my parent's yard for pill bugs.


----------



## MasterOogway (Jan 11, 2013)

Thanks for sharing your set up.this is great .


----------



## Team Gomberg (Jan 11, 2013)

stasisdc5 said:


> my set up consists of a 1" layer of lava rock. then 4-5" inches of a mixture of garden soil, play sand, and top soil.
> 
> I also set up a tube in one corner of my tank that sticks out of the substrate and leads down into the lava rock.
> 
> I would then attach a funnel to the tube to pour water through the tube. the water line should be right below where the substrate and lava rock meet. water will keep the bottom layer of the substrate moist.



interesting... thanks for sharing that idea

what type of tortoise do you keep in this set up?

how long have you had the worms and pill bugs in the substrate? do you find them to be beneficial??


----------



## theTurtleRoom (Jan 11, 2013)

There are a lot of beneficial insects available at neherpetoculture.com.


----------



## MasterOogway (Jan 11, 2013)

How do you keep the tank warm? Do you just use heating lights from above? I have a baby leopard tortoise that is tiny. I am ready to go for this set up but I am afraid of keeping him warm since he needs to stay warm being so young. I found a tank that is 72''Lx 19''W x 23" high I like that it is high to add the dirt. I just don't know if this set up would work for a baby Leo. The tank does come with a plexiglass lid with holes & a circle cut out for the light to help with humidity . Also will the uv lights help the plants to? I dont have a green thumb


----------



## stasisdc5 (Jan 12, 2013)

> interesting... thanks for sharing that idea
> 
> what type of tortoise do you keep in this set up?
> 
> how long have you had the worms and pill bugs in the substrate? do you find them to be beneficial??



I have a hermann's.

probably had them in for about 3 months now.

I only see 2 benefits: soil becomes perfect for plants and I have a clean up crew that eats the poop and leftover greens that aren't eaten or are too small that I individually have to pick them up to clean.

a self maintained environment so to speak.


----------



## Thalatte (Jan 12, 2013)

MasterOogway said:


> How do you keep the tank warm? Do you just use heating lights from above? I have a baby leopard tortoise that is tiny. I am ready to go for this set up but I am afraid of keeping him warm since he needs to stay warm being so young. I found a tank that is 72''Lx 19''W x 23" high I like that it is high to add the dirt. I just don't know if this set up would work for a baby Leo. The tank does come with a plexiglass lid with holes & a circle cut out for the light to help with humidity . Also will the uv lights help the plants to? I dont have a green thumb



Yep all I use is the lights. With the right types of lights and wattage he will be warm enough. That cage does sound awesome you need to snatch it up. Also 6-10 inches of substrate is plenty. Yes the UVB will help plants grow and it allows you to use outdoor species of plants which is great.
I don't have a green thumb either but so far the only plants I have been able to grow are the ones in my cages. Even the "delicate" plants are thriving.


I keep box turtles, wood turtle, desert tortoise, (other reptiles) bearded dragons, Chinese water dragon, and fire belly toads on bios give substrate. I am working on converting the sulcatas over but I am trying for a more "Saharan" look so its hard to find the right dirt.


----------



## Edna (Jan 12, 2013)

Thalatte said:


> MasterOogway said:
> 
> 
> > How do you keep the tank warm? Do you just use heating lights from above? I have a baby leopard tortoise that is tiny. I am ready to go for this set up but I am afraid of keeping him warm since he needs to stay warm being so young. I found a tank that is 72''Lx 19''W x 23" high I like that it is high to add the dirt. I just don't know if this set up would work for a baby Leo. The tank does come with a plexiglass lid with holes & a circle cut out for the light to help with humidity . Also will the uv lights help the plants to? I dont have a green thumb
> ...



Yes, my first bioactive enclosure was for my little leopard torts. It was semi-enclosed as you describe. I didn't have a lot of depth for a really deep substrate, but made sure some areas at least were deeper. In that warm and humid environment I had a thriving population of slugs and worms, and the leos would snack on both. The side walls were semi-transparent and I could usually see worm trails under the soil. THE COOLEST THING EVER was seeing little strips of lettuce or blades of grass pulled into those holes. I kinda like worms and consider them my pets, along with the torts


----------



## MasterOogway (Jan 12, 2013)

Thanks !! You guys got me do excited to give this a try. My hubby just picked up the tank he said it is huge. I can't wait to get started  Now to research what plants to plant!


----------



## MasterOogway (Jan 24, 2013)

I am working on Master Oogway little bio active winter world. I just came across in my journey of searching past posts that some members used hermit crabs as clean up crews and even some with success who have hatchling leos. I think I am going to try it after everything is up and active.


----------



## MasterOogway (Jan 26, 2013)

stasisdc5 said:


> my set up consists of a 1" layer of lava rock. then 4-5" inches of a mixture of garden soil, play sand, and top soil.
> 
> I also set up a tube in one corner of my tank that sticks out of the substrate and leads down into the lava rock.
> 
> ...



Well I took your advice. The one thing I am learning as I am working to get this all set up is if you live in the north the winter is not the best time to do a project like this.  I had to purchase frozen top soil from Home Depot then let it thaw out. You can't just go out & dig it up.I can't get all the worms & bugs from outside plus since its the middle of winter the pet stores only have mealworms. I was told by a pet store if you order online the most likely will die. The good news is PA crazy weather so we are going to go from the single digits to the mid-fifties on Tuesday. So I am hoping to find something :shy:
The good news is I have the lava rocks, soil, new hide, & tube all in my 150 gallon tank ready to go. I have planted grazing tortoise seeds & getting plants today or tomorrow. Without the plants and just dirt well watered it is keeping the humidity at 80 so I am so happy. It was only watered once in the am.:shy: Now the light have not been added so we will see how the humidity will hold with the plants & lights. 
I can't wait unit its all set up. I am planning on introducing Master Oogway to his new tank Tuesday.


----------



## Rover15 (Feb 4, 2013)

This thread is awesome just read the whole thing I was about to start my own thread I have so many questions some answered others have now entered my head after reading post 

Before my questions, I house a yellow foot that is about 4" and 2 baby eastern box turtles 1" each I definitely don't want to add meal worms but come spring I'll look for pill bugs for sure.

Can you use a mix of red wigglers and night crawlers on their own? Or do you need to add bugs?

Can you have a bioactive substrate WITHOUT soil? Example coco fiber mixed with moss on side and then moss on its own for the other side? I only ask because I am finding it extremely hard to find "clean" soil this time of year everything has the white bits in it.

What do herman crabs eat? Are they really safe to be housed with my tortoise?

What is the min depth for the substrate to work well? I plan on going 6" deep for. My yellow foot but have only done 2-3" with the baby EBT

This isn't a question but more a recap the only "con" I've herd is the potential danger from meal worms is this right or are there other concurns not mentioned? 

Last question what is a gnat? I think that was a con as well :S


----------



## Thalatte (Feb 5, 2013)

Most substrates including coco fiber have teeny tiny whit bugs in them, some people call them gnats though they are really wood mites. They aren't harmful to animals just annoying. 
I don't think it will work with coco fiber by I have never tried it. I use sphagnum peat moss. It has the same consistency as dirt but its organic and you can plant things in it. 
4in is a good minimum depth just so that it retains humidity, but you can do less if you want. I see no reason to though. My baby box turtles have about 6-7 in of substrate and they like it for burrowing.
I don't really count this as a risk but some don't use bioactive substrate with strict herbivores as they are afraid they will ingest the bugs. But it is no different than if they were wild so I don't see the problem.
Worms will take care of plant matter but adding bugs means the feces and dead bugs will be taken care of as well.


Oh and if you are using the stringy moss that definitely won't work for worms. 
Gnats: adding the bugs keeps the gnat population down so its a pro.


Oh hermit crabs eat whatever they can find. Decaying wood, plants, fruits, feces. They aren't fussy eaters. It would be sad for your tort though you would need to take care with adding various things to the enclosure to make the hermits happy and healthy.


----------



## Rover15 (Feb 5, 2013)

Thalatte said:


> Most substrates including coco fiber have teeny tiny whit bugs in them, some people call them gnats though they are really wood mites. They aren't harmful to animals just annoying.
> I don't think it will work with coco fiber by I have never tried it. I use sphagnum peat moss. It has the same consistency as dirt but its organic and you can plant things in it.
> 4in is a good minimum depth just so that it retains humidity, but you can do less if you want. I see no reason to though. My baby box turtles have about 6-7 in of substrate and they like it for burrowing.
> I don't really count this as a risk but some don't use bioactive substrate with strict herbivores as they are afraid they will ingest the bugs. But it is no different than if they were wild so I don't see the problem.
> ...





I've seen the little white bugs but have read they do no harm so I let them be. Because of how small my box turtles are that was the reasons I didn't do 6" in substrate, however I'm redoing their enclosure to a larger one either a plastic tub 26"x16"x22"H or once I move my yellow foot into her tortoise table I might move them into her current 36"Lx18"Wx15"H.

Is peamoss and mulch mix work? And then I would have moss in their hids and in other area's? I'm trying to find alturnitives to soil if icant find clean soil. 

Also you said that the worms will take care of. Plant matter do you mean the left over food?


----------



## mike taylor (Feb 5, 2013)

Does this type of set up have a smell to it do you have problems with the bugs getting out of the enclosure do you keep this in your house or a outdoor shed i like my reptiles but i hate bugs of any type i can catch snakes frogs alligators but you put a nasty bug on me and instant little girl thats funny but true but i can handle the bugs in the enclosure but not running around my house


----------



## RedFootMomma (Feb 5, 2013)

I use a product called "Forest Magic"- essentially mulch, but more coarse, purchased from a local nursery. I would be careful buying from Home Depot, many soils have added fertilizers, etc that could be harmful to torts. We regularly buy night crawlers from a gas station that has a bait fridge. I dig them in, otherwise Carlos, our red foot, snaps them right up. We have a colony of pill bugs living under the water bowl. I see Carlos "hunting" when we change out his water. We had some gnats, but a small spider moved in & took care of that problem. I grow a variety of lettuces in peat pots then transplant. They get chomped to the ground as fast as I can sprout them! There is very little smell (it's an earthy smell I like, not like a stinky cat box) & I haven't had any trouble with escaping bugs : ) I HIGHLY recommend a bio active substrate, it makes me feel better about keeping my tort in captivity : ) Good luck!


----------



## Team Gomberg (Feb 5, 2013)

I have no smell. The worms and pill bugs have never escaped from the tank which is kept in my bedroom and so far I'm satisfied with my mini clean up crew.




mike taylor said:


> Does this type of set up have a smell to it do you have problems with the bugs getting out of the enclosure do you keep this in your house or a outdoor shed i like my reptiles but i hate bugs of any type i can catch snakes frogs alligators but you put a nasty bug on me and instant little girl thats funny but true but i can handle the bugs in the enclosure but not running around my house


----------



## Thalatte (Feb 5, 2013)

Rover15 said:


> I've seen the little white bugs but have read they do no harm so I let them be. Because of how small my box turtles are that was the reasons I didn't do 6" in substrate, however I'm redoing their enclosure to a larger one either a plastic tub 26"x16"x22"H or once I move my yellow foot into her tortoise table I might move them into her current 36"Lx18"Wx15"H.
> 
> Is peamoss and mulch mix work? And then I would have moss in their hids and in other area's? I'm trying to find alturnitives to soil if icant find clean soil.
> 
> Also you said that the worms will take care of. Plant matter do you mean the left over food?



I understand not doing a 6" in substrate but my little boxies do just fine in it if you want to add more. If not it doesn't make a difference to the turtle.
Yes peat and mulch will work. I bought the peat moss at Walmart garden center so you might be able to find soil there.
I use regular moss in the hide and around the food bowl. Also to the entrance to their pond in the hopes it will stop them from tracking so much dirt in it but so far it doesn't work, still have to change the water twice a day.
Yes the worms will take care of left over food to an extent. They don't come up to the surface much so they take care of the stuff trampled into the soil. 
Think of it like this: worms will take care of whatever is under the soil and bugs do the surface cleaning.

As far as smell the large tank does smell like earth and decomposing plants but I don't mind it. The smaller cages don't smell like anything. 
Also none of my bugs have escaped from any tanks...well besides the crickets but they aren't used in bio substrate.


----------



## mike taylor (Feb 5, 2013)

Ok thanks i am building a reptile room in my barn may use this out there due to the size of pen i am going to build 15/20 may save a lot of money on beding but this enclosure is for winter in houston we only get two or three months of cold so they stay outside in there big enclosure so if you don't have animals in this type of system i will need to add fresh water and food for the worms / bugs all summer or you think the torts will make enough of a mess this will give the bugs/ worms time to clean up


----------



## Rover15 (Feb 5, 2013)

Thalatte said:


> Rover15 said:
> 
> 
> > I've seen the little white bugs but have read they do no harm so I let them be. Because of how small my box turtles are that was the reasons I didn't do 6" in substrate, however I'm redoing their enclosure to a larger one either a plastic tub 26"x16"x22"H or once I move my yellow foot into her tortoise table I might move them into her current 36"Lx18"Wx15"H.
> ...



Yea I just checked walmart and canadian tire like a hour ago right now the only soil they have that doesn't have prelite in it is







But I have read that miricale gro isn't good because of furtilizar or some reason. Canadian tire had peat moss for an 8.8l bag it was 6.99 and I need to get 6" in a 40"Lx40"W tortoise table I'm building so it wouid get expensive. I'm trying to avoid. Any sand mix. The picture I showed you walmart has a 26L for 6.49 a lot more cost effective.

It has been a pain in the butt trying to find soil this time a year


----------

