# Big Bertha Doing Great



## ZEROPILOT

Kind of.
She starts her Critical Care slurry today.


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## leigti

I hope it works.


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## Yellow Turtle01

I hope it works, as well.


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## Lyn W

Fingers crossed for a good result


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## Killerrookie

Keep us updated and I hope it really does work! Good luck and best wishes to you two.


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## gingerbee

Yea I hope she gets better soon!!


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## Jodie

I am really rooting for her. It is great to see some good news n hope returned.


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## ZEROPILOT

Up to 15 MG critical care and another 10 MG pediacare.
25 MG of "food" twice daily.
She is in a 60 gallon tote with newspaper and hay. She is inside our sunroom.
I don't want her disturbed.
This afternoon I may place her out on the patio still in the tote to get some warm damp air.
The other tortoises apparently are unaffected by whatever mysterious thing this is. Thank God.


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## DawnH

Awwww!! Sweet baby! She is just beautiful. Thanks for fighting for her, Ed!!


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## Tidgy's Dad

Missed this thread, Ed.
Been following this whole sad saga as you know, but maybe a little optimism at last.
Really, really hope all the time, effort and money you've put into this gives you a payback.
And most of all, I hope the poor tort makes it.


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## ZEROPILOT

Thanks!
I haven't seen any improvement yet but I know it's premature.
We have a follow up appointment this Friday.
I was planning on giving her some outdoors time but the rains have finally come and I don't want her bandages getting soiled.


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## ZEROPILOT

Outside in the isolation pen for a little sun and clearly unhappy...
The food is just wishful thinking on my part.


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## Yvonne G

ZEROPILOT said:


> Up to 15 MG critical care and another 10 MG pediacare.
> 25 MG of "food" twice daily.
> She is in a 60 gallon tote with newspaper and hay. She is inside our sunroom.
> I don't want her disturbed.
> This afternoon I may place her out on the patio still in the tote to get some warm damp air.
> The other tortoises apparently are unaffected by whatever mysterious thing this is. Thank God.



Please be wary of adding too much food. Their stomachs don't empty as fast as ours. Personally, I feel twice a day is too often/much.


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## ZEROPILOT

Yvonne G said:


> Please be wary of adding too much food. Their stomachs don't empty as fast as ours. Personally, I feel twice a day is too often/much.


I felt the same. My vet assures me that it's ok.
Between us, during the week I DO only feed her once a day. I don't have time early in the morning. It's 20mg of Critical Care mixed with Pedialite and then 5 MG of straight Pedialite to flush the tube.
She hasn't regurgitated.
She also hasn't passed anything liquid or solid and I'd see it on her newspaper and hay...


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## Yvonne G

Let's hope for a good outcome. I'm rooting for her.


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## ZEROPILOT

Thanks. I just carried her back inside. In an hour and a half she didn't move an inch.


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## ZEROPILOT

Ml not Mg. Sorry. 20 Ml of Critical care. 5 Ml of straight pedialite.


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## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'm encouraged by your progress and was inspired by your determination.
> I have hope for my sick RF still....


Good afternoon Ed. Hope you're well. How's your sick tort? Any better? Let's hope for the best and wishes for a SPEEDY RECOVERY.


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## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Kind of.
> She starts her Critical Care slurry today.
> 
> View attachment 132806


GREAT news at last! Touch wood and pray for the best. Good luck.


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## Gillian M

Yvonne G said:


> Please be wary of adding too much food. Their stomachs don't empty as fast as ours. Personally, I feel twice a day is too often/much.


Would the above apply on all torts? Or do you only mean Bertha, that is sick?

Appreciate an answer. Thank you.


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## ZEROPILOT

Gillian Moore said:


> Would the above apply on all torts? Or do you only mean Bertha, that is sick?
> 
> Appreciate an answer. Thank you.


with tube feeding, it would be very easy to inject too much food, liquid.
She's not actually eating. She's being fed.


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## ZEROPILOT

Gillian Moore said:


> Good afternoon Ed. Hope you're well. How's your sick tort? Any better? Let's hope for the best and wishes for a SPEEDY RECOVERY.


Thanks, Gillian. It's a slow process. No improvement yet.


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## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> with tube feeding, it would be very easy to inject too much food, liquid.
> She's not actually eating. She's being fed.


Hi Ed and thanks a lot your answer. 

Once again, GOOD LUCK TO BERTHA!


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## ZEROPILOT

Thank you. It's too soon to tell if she'll be O.K.
But food intake can't be bad.


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## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Thanks, Gillian. It's a slow process. No improvement yet.


Please please try to keep calm and take it easy. I for one know that words are easy. Oli drove me NUTS a week or so ago, so I know how you feel, though Oli's case was NOT as serious as Bertha's I am 100% sure.

Wait and see: improvement will hopefully take place, but it'll take time. GOOD LUCK to both YOU and BERTHA.


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## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Thank you. It's too soon to tell if she'll be O.K.
> But food intake can't be bad.


So long as Bertha is eating that is ONE thing. Let's think POSITIVE: food cannot harm a human being/animal, can it?


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## ZEROPILOT

Gillian Moore said:


> So long as Bertha is eating that is ONE thing. Let's think POSITIVE: food cannot harm a human being/animal, can it?


Depends on the food. How about deep fried pork skin?


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## Turtlepete

Gillian Moore said:


> So long as Bertha is eating that is ONE thing. Let's think POSITIVE: food cannot harm a human being/animal, can it?



If that food came from Ruby Tuesdays then yes..


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## ZEROPILOT

Does it seem normal that she hasn't peed or pooped anything? She's on newspaper and a towel, so I wouldn't have missed it. I started feeding Friday P.M.
Now I have nightmare visions that the feeding tube isn't going into the stomach, but into the chest cavity...I worry too much, I know.


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## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Does it seem normal that she hasn't peed or pooped anything? She's on newspaper and a towel, so I wouldn't have missed it. I started feeding Friday P.M.
> Now I have nightmare visions that the feeding tube isn't going into the stomach, but into the chest cavity...I worry too much, I know.


Ed, I am anything but an expert. in this field, so I'm sorry I cannot help you. Please, please try to take it easy.

You and I seem to have this in common...WORRYING TOO MUCH!


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## Yvonne G

That's why I was warning you about putting too much food in the tube. A tortoise's metabolism/G.I. tract works VERY SLOWLY. I've noticed cantaloupe seeds in the poop *TWO WEEKS *after they had eaten cantaloupe.

It may not take that long, but I wouldn't worry just yet.


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## ZEROPILOT

Thanks Yvonne. 
Thanks Gillian.


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## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> Depends on the food. How about deep fried pork skin?


Tidgy was being fed lamb and beef fat when I rescued her.


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## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Thanks Yvonne.
> Thanks Gillian.


Don't mention it.


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## Kenno

ZEROPILOT said:


> Does it seem normal that she hasn't peed or pooped anything? She's on newspaper and a towel, so I wouldn't have missed it. I started feeding Friday P.M.
> Now I have nightmare visions that the feeding tube isn't going into the stomach, but into the chest cavity...I worry too much, I know.



Best wishes for a good outcome.

Liquids in can mean no solid returns for a long time. Also, they don't pee very often. 

Feeding tube placement can be checked very easily by anyone who knows how - they will send a small air bubble down and listen for a gurgle. The air would do no harm if the tube placement is wrong. Gurgle means it's in the right place: tummy or GI tract. 

My experience is only from working with humans but it has to be the same simple procedure.


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## Gillian M

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Tidgy was being fed lamb and beef fat when I rescued her.


Hi Adam. I know someone who has MANY torts in her garden: nothing she wanted or likes for that matter. They were 'imposed' on her. So she feeds them RICE, BREAD, MEAT and so on...leftovers.


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## kathyth

Fingers crossed for Bertha!!!!!


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## Gillian M

kathyth said:


> Fingers crossed for Bertha!!!!!


Let's hope Bertha gets well SOON. 

And good luck to Ed (who's extremely worried) and good luck to Bertha.


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## ZEROPILOT

Kenno said:


> Best wishes for a good outcome.
> 
> Liquids in can mean no solid returns for a long time. Also, they don't pee very often.
> 
> Feeding tube placement can be checked very easily by anyone who knows how - they will send a small air bubble down and listen for a gurgle. The air would do no harm if the tube placement is wrong. Gurgle means it's in the right place: tummy or GI tract.
> 
> My experience is only from working with humans but it has to be the same simple procedure.


Thanks. The procedure was done by my exotic vet. Not myself. So I'm hoping it's all good.


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## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Thanks. The procedure was done by my exotic vet. Not myself. So I'm hoping it's all good.


Hi Ed. See? Told you.....'hope is the last thing to die.'

Wishes for Bertha to ger well SOON.


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## 4jean

Good luck to Bertha!!


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## ZEROPILOT

Thanks.


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## stojanovski92113

Come on Bertha!!!! You've been hanging on this long...make that turn around already!!


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## DawnH

How are you holding up, Ed? Been thinkin' about you and your girl. Got my pom pom's on and am cheering you here in (hot and humid as hell) Tejas...


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## ZEROPILOT

DawnH said:


> How are you holding up, Ed? Been thinkin' about you and your girl. Got my pom pom's on and am cheering you here in (hot and humid as hell) Tejas...


I got a visual of that. Thanks.
She goes back to the vet in the morning for a follow up.


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## ZEROPILOT

There has been no change otherwise.
She still wont or cant walk.
She can stand on her wobbly legs for a moment and then lays down again...
Now my ancient dog is acting strange, too. Peeing all over himself and the house.


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## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> There has been no change otherwise.
> She still wont or cant walk.
> She can stand on her wobbly legs for a moment and then lays down again...
> Now my ancient dog is acting strange, too. Peeing all over himself and the house.


Oh, no!
People say animals are such a comfort and that's true.
But they're also a whole shedfull of stress.


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## ZEROPILOT

My dog is a great friend to me.


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## DawnH

ZEROPILOT said:


> There has been no change otherwise.
> She still wont or cant walk.
> She can stand on her wobbly legs for a moment and then lays down again...
> Now my ancient dog is acting strange, too. Peeing all over himself and the house.



I would talk to your vet. That can be one of the "normal" signs of an aging dog or something as simple as a bladder infection or other issues that pop up when our pets get older. All pretty easy to rectify (one of our older dogs had to wear a pull up while inside. His memory was failing and he would simply forget how to take himself out.) Regardless, it is hard to see our pets getting older. I cannot imagine my life without a dog or two (or three, as the case may be today.)


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## ZEROPILOT

He takes meds for a heart problem and I was told a few years ago that he might start peeing a lot.. It has begun.
At fifteen years old, I don't want to ad to or change anything about his medications. I'm just happy to still have him.


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## ZEROPILOT

The WHIZ master caught eating a paper towel with some Chinese food on it. Look at the corner of his guilty mouth.


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## Jodie

He looks so sweet. Obviously couldn't help himself.


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## WithLisa

What a cutie...  Luckily, a small dog can't pee much. 
Best of luck for Bertha and Whiz!


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## DawnH

Smart boy. Who doesn't love Chinese food (his expression is adorable...lol)


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## ZEROPILOT

If he ever has that look on his face, start looking around the house because he DID something.
Bertha sees the vet in the morning so maybe I'll have more news. (and even less money) If she lives. I'm changing her name. Something fitting with the millions I've spend trying to save her.
Chester ha s a vet appointment closer to the house an hour later.


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## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> If he ever has that look on his face, start looking around the house because he DID something.
> Bertha sees the vet in the morning so maybe I'll have more news. (and even less money) If she lives. I'm changing her name. Something fitting with the millions I've spend trying to save her.
> Chester ha s a vet appointment closer to the house an hour later.


Hmmmm.
A name for something that costs a fortune, you love very much, but also is annoying because it doesn't respond?
wifey.


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## ZEROPILOT

Spoken like another married man. 
Very good


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## Tidgy's Dad

Good luck at the vets this morning.
All hoping for a positive result.


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## Jodie

Best wishes to you at the vet. I admire your determination and dedication to your animals. I am hoping for the outcome you desire.


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## DawnH

LOL!!


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## DawnH

Let us know how it goes Ed!! I am keeping my fingers crossed for nothing but good news, even if it is just a sliver.


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## Momof4

Sending good vibes to Bertha!! Keep us updated. 

I have seen the guilty dog look! 
He is cute!


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## ZEROPILOT

Back from the vet. And NO CHARGE?
She says that Bertha will likely be on the tube for months. Her weight is up a bit and she is extending her head and neck.
Next visit is July 3rd.
She seems to be a tad bit more alert.


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## Tidgy's Dad

Hooray!! and bloody hooray!!!!!
Absolutely well pleased.
And give the vet a kiss from me.
really hopeful now.


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## ZEROPILOT

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Hooray!! and bloody hooray!!!!!
> Absolutely well pleased.
> And give the vet a kiss from me.
> really hopeful now.


The vet ain't half bad looking...


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## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> The vet ain't half bad looking...


Well, tongues then.


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## ZEROPILOT

No.
Gotta keep it professional.
As irresistible as I may be...


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## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Back from the vet. And NO CHARGE?
> She says that Bertha will likely be on the tube for months. Her weight is up a bit and she is extending her head and neck.
> Next visit is July 3rd.
> She seems to be a tad bit more alert.



That's very good news,


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## ZEROPILOT

I placed some fruit near her face. 
I live in hope...


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## Jodie

I am very glad you are seeing some improvement. Baby steps, but hope lives.


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## ZEROPILOT

Thanks


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## kathyth

Go Bertha, go!! We're rooting for you!
Hope is a beautiful thing.


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## DawnH

MAN! I am seriously glad my pom pom's never left my side. WHOOOOO HOOOOOOOO!!! She is SO beautiful!! Rock on, Ed. You just made my night!


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## newCH

Glad to hear you are having some progress with Bertha.
She is a pretty tort. I like the idea of a name change, maybe she
could be Penny, your shiny red penny !
Love the dog pic. Adorable !


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## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Thanks


I wondered what happened to her. I only just seen this thread. How is she now.


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## ZEROPILOT

I just fed her and had her outside. I called in sick for work.
Her weight is up. I guess it would be. I've been injecting watery goo into her stomach.
There is no change really. Baby steps.


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## ZEROPILOT

I placed her outside this morning and she crawled about ten feet.
I also cant find a piece of BIBB lettuce that I placed in front of her. I'm not convinced that she ate it, but, I can't locate it.
6/25/15


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## Tidgy's Dad

She ate i!, She ate it!
oh, I so hope she ate it.


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## ZEROPILOT

Thanks Adam...
And she is moving around more than in the recent past. Actually walking a bit instead of just pulling herself around with her front legs.


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## Jodie

All good signs. This great news just made my day. Great job hanging in there and giving this girl every opportunity to get better.


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## gingerbee

Wow what good news!!!


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## ZEROPILOT

Thanks for everyones support.
She has a consciousness about her now. 
She isn't in a vegetative state.


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## stojanovski92113

I'm also happy to hear some good news about her!! You both been through a lot! It sounds like she's getting back to herself slowly


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## ZEROPILOT

stojanovski92113 said:


> I'm also happy to hear some good news about her!! You both been through a lot! It sounds like she's getting back to herself slowly


Key word SLOWLY.


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## Tidgy's Dad

But, on this occasion, SLOWLY, is a really great adverb.


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## ZEROPILOT

Yes.


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## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Key word SLOWLY.


Step by small, tentative step Ed, but a step in the right direction .Great news!


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## ZEROPILOT

I'm watching her. I have been for almost an hour. She nudges the lettuce every couple of minutes.


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## leigti

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'm watching her. I have been for almost an hour. She nudges the lettuce every couple of minutes.


Would she eat it if you squirted cucumber juice on it? Or tomato juice?


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## newCH

Yippee ! I am so happy for you both !


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## stojanovski92113

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'm watching her. I have been for almost an hour. She nudges the lettuce every couple of minutes.


Is she trying to eat and too weak to open her mouth?


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## ZEROPILOT

Before she got really weak, she just showed no interest in food. No matter what it was she just walked right over it.


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## ZEROPILOT

Now I have three missing lettuce leaves....Two yesterday and again this morning?
Also, I placed her into my outside isolation pen early in the morning but it rained like hell while I was out of the house.
I rushed home expecting to find her sitting in mud with her bandages wet and nasty.
What I found was her. High and dry. Sitting about twelve feet away in her doghouse.
I like what I'm seeing. She walks and she MAY be eating!


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## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> Now I have three missing lettuce leaves....Two yesterday and again this morning?
> Also, I placed her into my outside isolation pen early in the morning but it rained like hell while I was out of the house.
> I rushed home expecting to find her sitting in mud with her bandages wet and nasty.
> What I found was her. High and dry. Sitting about twelve feet away in her doghouse.
> I like what I'm seeing. She walks and she MAY be eating!


Positive, positive, positive.
Hooooorrrayyyy!


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## ZEROPILOT

Thanks Adam.
Im becoming a believer.


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## Jodie

I am so excited, and glad to see this new info.


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## 4jean

Such good signs! I am so happy for you! 
How is your dog?


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## ZEROPILOT

4jean said:


> Such good signs! I am so happy for you!
> How is your dog?


Chester is doing O.K.
He's on two pills for his heart and is doing well.
Thanks.


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## ZEROPILOT

So, the game is on.
The game is to actually SEE her eat something! Yesterday she was in her Rubbermade tub all morning with a BIB lettuce leaf...NOTHING.
I got home and placed her outside for some sun. I placed another leaf in front of her and worked on the other animals. When I went back to carry her indoors, the lettuce was GONE! This time it was a whole leaf. Maybe 5" by 4"....And a sliver was left about the size of a dime and there were chomp marks on it....
This is about 100% confirmation that she is eating on her own after about 3-4 months. I just want to see it.
Her tube feedings now have been boosted to include Oxbow Critical care in Pedialite with two drops daily of "Bird" vitamins or some Repashy mixed in and twice weekly some added sweet potato baby food. 20mg. Followed by 10mg of Pedialite as a flush.
Forgive me because the mg might be ml. It is a large syringe with marks on it.


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## tortdad

Awesome news Ed


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## teresaf

Just great! How old is Bertha? I forget if you said.


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## stojanovski92113

It sounds like she's getting stronger and eating. I'm so happy to hear some positive news about her! I wonder what caused it all in the first place?


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## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> So, the game is on.
> The game is to actually SEE her eat something! Yesterday she was in her Rubbermade tub all morning with a BIB lettuce leaf...NOTHING.
> I got home and placed her outside for some sun. I placed another leaf in front of her and worked on the other animals. When I went back to carry her indoors, the lettuce was GONE! This time it was a whole leaf. Maybe 5" by 4"....And a sliver was left about the size of a dime and there were chomp marks on it....
> This is about 100% confirmation that she is eating on her own after about 3-4 months. I just want to see it.
> Her tube feedings now have been boosted to include Oxbow Critical care in Pedialite with two drops daily of "Bird" vitamins or some Repashy mixed in and twice weekly some added sweet potato baby food. 20mg. Followed by 10mg of Pedialite as a flush.
> Forgive me because the mg might be ml. It is a large syringe with marks on it.


Quality. When she has pulled through this you will be able to look back on what you achieved with pride. Also you will have learnt a lot from this experience.


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## DawnH

That is such great news. SUCH great news!!!!


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## newCH

Great news ! Plus she has expanded your capabilities of tortoise care ! Glad she is eating. Bib lettuce tends to be soft and tender too. Very happy for you and Bertha !


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## ZEROPILOT

She is thought to be between 20 and 25 years old.
Today if it isn't raining I'm going to add strawberry and black berries to a whole bunch of greens and see what happens.


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## ZEROPILOT

Yes. If she makes it this would have all been worth it.
I wonder how long after first eating regularly does the tube get removed?
A little premature still for sure.


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## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yes. If she makes it this would have all been worth it.
> I wonder how long after first eating regularly does the tube get removed?
> A little premature still for sure.


Not IF. When. . She's on the up. I suppose really your not going to see her eat as you would expect whilst you are also tube feeding. The time will come to stop the tube and watch carefully.


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## ZEROPILOT

There's still that annoying reality that whatever got her so ill in the first place has never been diagnosed....
I'm assuming that it has passed.


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## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> There's still that annoying reality that whatever got her so ill in the first place has never been diagnosed....
> I'm assuming that it has passed.


Hi and welcome back.

GREAT!!!! Good news ! See Ed? Told you that hope is the last thing to die. Congrats!


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## gingerbee

Great!! Love it!!!


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## ZEROPILOT

IT WORKED.
 Boy did it work!
I watched her eat some peach, some banana, two hibiscus leaves and a portion of a Romain leaf.
And her walking is less wobbly too.


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## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> IT WORKED.
> Boy did it work!
> I watched her eat some peach, some banana, two hibiscus leaves and a portion of a Romain leaf.
> And her walking is less wobbly too.


GREAT!! Really GREAT to hear such good news, and once again congrats! Take good care of Bertha.


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## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> There's still that annoying reality that whatever got her so ill in the first place has never been diagnosed....
> I'm assuming that it has passed.


Yeah I agree. Would be nice to know what the problem was for everyone's benefit. Have you ruled out stress. You said she is 20/25 yrs old. Was she with the previous owner for a long time.


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## stojanovski92113

ZEROPILOT said:


> IT WORKED.
> Boy did it work!
> I watched her eat some peach, some banana, two hibiscus leaves and a portion of a Romain leaf.
> And her walking is less wobbly too.


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## ZEROPILOT

Anyfoot said:


> Yeah I agree. Would be nice to know what the problem was for everyone's benefit. Have you ruled out stress. You said she is 20/25 yrs old. Was she with the previous owner for a long time.


8 years with the old owner as an adult "breeder". One of two that I purchased from the same farm. They are two of 44. They had very little interaction with people. The other female has been perfectly healthy and is almost identical. That's why Bertha has a "B" on her shell. She looks like Ruby.


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## ZEROPILOT

She ate almost a full meal yesterday on her own, so I just gave her the Pedialite and very little Critical care.
Today if weather permits I'm going to offer her a larger amount of greens outdoors.
She still has not pooped............Not in all of this time.


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## DawnH

ZEROPILOT said:


> She ate almost a full meal yesterday on her own, so I just gave her the Pedialite and very little Critical care.
> Today if weather permits I'm going to offer her a larger amount of greens outdoors.
> She still has not pooped............Not in all of this time.



Do you think she HAS and she has eaten it...?


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## ZEROPILOT

DawnH said:


> Do you think she HAS and she has eaten it...?


Maybe. But I've searched her container each day. Dry and clean.


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## ZEROPILOT

Another FIRST:
First time she has ever eaten three days in a row. Yesterday a whole Bibb lettuce leaf, minus the white part and two nibbles of avacado.


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## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Another FIRST:
> First time she has ever eaten three days in a row. Yesterday a whole Bibb lettuce leaf, minus the white part and two nibbles of avacado.


Have you tried dandelion yet.


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## ZEROPILOT

Anyfoot said:


> Have you tried dandelion yet.


Yes. I found a Spanish grocery down in Hollywood that carries Dandelion greens. But, really NONE of my RF including her like to eat it. In fact, in a pile of mixed greenery, they will eat everything BUT Dandelion. Sometimes they will eat a couple of them. (leaves) But as a rule, they avoid it.
Yesterday Bertha had a choice of: Dandelion, Rabbi, Bibb, Romaine, Hibiscus leaf, Hibiscus flower, Avacado and strawberry. She ate just the Bibb.
Everyone else ate everything except the Dandelion and most of the avacado.


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## Anyfoot

Really, that surprised me. Is it the same dandelion we have in the wild growing everywhere as weeds. Bet she'd eat a cut up pinkie.


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## ZEROPILOT

I've still never fed any tortoise a pinky.
I saw two of them eat a dead rat once and it turned me off of the idea.
I'll get a photo of the Dandelion this evening.


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## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> I've still never fed any tortoise a pinky.
> I saw two of them eat a dead rat once and it turned me off of the idea.
> I'll get a photo of the Dandelion this evening.


Mine turn wild with mice, especially the females, my male cherryhead won't eat mice,he as catfoot. Protein, good to build you back up when week. In moderation. Dandelion has high calcium I beleive.


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## ZEROPILOT

Dandelion is a very good food. I keep trying it. It's only like $1.50 a bunch.


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## DawnH

I never even thought about buying some at the organic store! Good call!!


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## ZEROPILOT

July 2nd.
She ate again. 
Two Bibb leaves. 
Four days in a row now.
I'll try to give her 3 leaves in the morning.
July might be her month!


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Hope July IS her month, and yours too.
Think you know how happy I am with all this latest news.
Super.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She ate quite a bit today too. 
Five days in a row.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Thanks Adam for your support.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> Thanks Adam for your support.


Not interested in you, Ed, concerned about Bertha.


----------



## Anyfoot

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Not interested in you, Ed, concerned about Bertha.


You've lived all over the world but yet cannot shake of the British humour. lol Made me laugh.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> She ate quite a bit today too.
> Five days in a row.


Wonderful news at last! Sounds like she is definitely on the road to recovery. Well done Ed.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Anyfoot said:


> You've lived all over the world but yet cannot shake of the British humour. lol Made me laugh.


Hopefully, Ed will know i'm joking, i think he gets my humour too.
Got me worried now!


----------



## Anyfoot

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Hopefully, Ed will know i'm joking, i think he gets my humour too.
> Got me worried now!


He will.


----------



## kathyth

This is fantastic news!!
Go Bertha, go!!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Today she may or may not have eaten.
It rained and made a mess before I could bring her inside.
I'll put extra in the tube tonight. Since she has been eating whole leaves, the plan is to give her a pile in the morning.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Hopefully, Ed will know i'm joking, i think he gets my humour too.
> Got me worried now!


Our friendship is just fine.


----------



## bouaboua

You are amazing of what you did. How is the torts doing? Sorry, I did not read through all the pages..................


----------



## bouaboua

ZEROPILOT said:


> Today she may or may not have eaten.
> It rained and made a mess before I could bring her inside.
> I'll put extra in the tube tonight. Since she has been eating whole leaves, the plan is to give her a pile in the morning.


OK. I found this update. 

You are amazing like I said.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

bouaboua said:


> You are amazing of what you did. How is the torts doing? Sorry, I did not read through all the pages..................


Very little day to day progress but last week there was a giant leap forward.
She's still not ok.
I'm expecting another month or two of recovery.
Thanks for your kind words.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

OK
Saturday and Sunday no food eaten orally.
The eating marathon has hit another snag.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Oh, no! 
Drat it. 
Back to being patient again.


----------



## leigti

ZEROPILOT said:


> OK
> Saturday and Sunday no food eaten orally.
> The eating marathon has hit another snag.


Hang in there.


----------



## DawnH

ZEROPILOT said:


> OK
> Saturday and Sunday no food eaten orally.
> The eating marathon has hit another snag.



Well, drat.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

This is just insane! She ate more and more for five days in a row and now has stopped again, Not a nibble in four days. (Not even mango.)


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> This is just insane! She ate more and more for five days in a row and now has stopped again, Not a nibble in four days. (Not even mango.)


Have you changed anything at all. Within the last week or so. I mean from when you thought you was seeing a change in her.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

This is what she was doing months ago before the tube went in.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> This is what she was doing months ago before the tube went in.


So have you stopped it with the tube.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> This is what she was doing months ago before the tube went in.


So in the 5 days she ate. What did she eat.


----------



## Gillian M

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Oh, no!
> Drat it.
> Back to being patient again.


Oh yes....patience is the first thing to keep in mind when one decides to go for a tort as a pet, let alone if and when it falls ill.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Anyfoot said:


> So in the 5 days she ate. What did she eat.


Bibb lettuce only and then also Romain and eventually strawberry and banana.
Then nothing.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Gillian Moore said:


> Oh yes....patience is the first thing to keep in mind when one decides to go for a tort as a pet, let alone if and when it falls ill.


I'm patient. I had just hoped that she was over the worst of it.
Even once she eats every day I still have to keep the tube in for weeks at least.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Bibb lettuce only and then also Romain and eventually strawberry and banana.
> Then nothing.





ZEROPILOT said:


> Bibb lettuce only and then also Romain and eventually strawberry and banana.
> Then nothing.



Is she still alert or gone back to being lethargic? What about for hydration?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Her eyes are alert. she does walk just a little when she is outside. She goes outside each day.
The only hydration is the about 25-35 ml of Pedialite she gets in the daily injections.
It's just that I thought this progress would continue this time and it has hit another snag.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I'm going to Email my vet and ask if a warm water soak would be O.K.
It would easily be over the incision line, so I haven't soaked her.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'm going to Email my vet and ask if a warm water soak would be O.K.
> It would easily be over the incision line, so I haven't soaked her.


I was going to ask if any of the more experienced on here recommended a warm bath. All my torts are more active after a forced soak. Not that they are I'll. But in general it wakens them up a bit. Also I wanted to see if anyone thought about feeding protein to build her up a bit. Does banana and strawberries have enough sugar in it to give her a boost from weakness. Does a sugar boost work on torts. Questions questions. Chin up ed.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I've been placing some extra bird vitamins in the tube food. That seemed to do the trick last week.
My vet says that it is O.K. to soak her, so tonight she's going in the sink.
(I have a very large sink.)
If anything, the sugary foods given to my other tortoises seems to make them sleepy.....


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> I've been placing some extra bird vitamins in the tube food. That seemed to do the trick last week.
> My vet says that it is O.K. to soak her, so tonight she's going in the sink.
> (I have a very large sink.)
> If anything, the sugary foods given to my other tortoises seems to make them sleepy.....


Good evening Ed. Glad to hear Bertha is better.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Gillian Moore said:


> Good evening Ed. Glad to hear Bertha is better.


Thanks. But she kinda isn't.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Thanks. But she kinda isn't.


Has she pooped whilst in the period she was eating.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Nope. 
She hasn't gone in a Looooong time.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Nope.
> She hasn't gone in a Looooong time.


 Really, so she not pooped whilst you tube fed and she ate for 5 days. 
Did the lady you got her off live near you, what was the temperature like where she lived compared to where you live?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Bertha is one of two females that came from a breeder no more than 15 miles away from me.
She's been checked and re checked for an obstruction, also.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Bertha is one of two females that came from a breeder no more than 15 miles away from me.
> She's been checked and re checked for an obstruction, also.


See if she poops when you bathe her. Its unreal what's happening to you with this tort.When you very 1st got her was she active like a normal tort.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Thanks. But she kinda isn't.


Sorry about this setback Ed, It's one step forward and 3 back isn't it.

It's no comparison but Lola once went for almost 2 weeks without a poop and has never pooped in his soaks - unlike everyone else's tort seems to.
I tried him on cucumber and then aloe vera but I grated them to a mush to see if they would go hrough his system quicker and not sure which one of them it was but it did the trick.
Hope for more good news soon.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Bertha is one of two females that came from a breeder no more than 15 miles away from me.
> She's been checked and re checked for an obstruction, also.


I read somewhere that pumpkin is good to make them poop and clear the system out. But if she's not eaten a deal you wouldn't expect a poop I imagine.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She has never been as active or as outgoing as her sister and quickly went downhill shortly after I got her.
It's very likely that the breeder let them go because of a known issue that is still unknown to me.


----------



## Jodie

How frustrating. I truly feel for you and this poor girl. Hoping your diligents and persistence will pay off for you.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> She has never been as active or as outgoing as her sister and quickly went downhill shortly after I got her.
> It's very likely that the breeder let them go because of a known issue that is still unknown to me.


Any news ed?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I gave her her first soak since her surgery and was a little shocked at how much water she drank. This was AFTER her feeding that included almost 30 ml of Pedialite mixture.
No poop.
I'll try this again either today or Friday before I let her outside and see if she eats real food afterwards.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> I gave her her first soak since her surgery and was a little shocked at how much water she drank. This was AFTER her feeding that included almost 30 ml of Pedialite mixture.
> No poop.
> I'll try this again either today or Friday before I let her outside and see if she eats real food afterwards.


Thats good news that she was drinking. Maybe a warm soak everyday for a week. What is Pedialite?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Pedialite is for children. It's for rehydrating them. Like Gatorade. (If that's even available over seas) It has electrolites and minerals. Clear. Non flavored is what I use. I use it mixed with the OXBOW CRITICAL CARE powdered food and then as a flush. (For the feeding tube) Sometimes also with baby food. sometimes also with vitamin drops.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> I gave her her first soak since her surgery and was a little shocked at how much water she drank. This was AFTER her feeding that included almost 30 ml of Pedialite mixture.
> No poop.
> I'll try this again either today or Friday before I let her outside and see if she eats real food afterwards.


Maybe a few good soaks and plenty of fluid will get things moving and make her feel better, Fingers crossed - she is a little fighter that's for sure, good job she has you in her corner Ed.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Lyn W said:


> Maybe a few good soaks and plenty of fluid will get things moving and make her feel better, Fingers crossed - she is a little fighter that's for sure, good job she has you in her corner Ed.


Thanks, Lyn.
I JUST got the "OK" from my vet to do the soaks, so they will happen from now on. 
Her weight is up over 1.25 pounds since I've started the injections.
It's almost like caring for a baby...And there's a reason I never had kids. (I lack patience.)


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Thanks, Lyn.
> I JUST got the "OK" from my vet to do the soaks, so they will happen from now on.
> Her weight is up over 1.25 pounds since I've started the injections.
> It's almost like caring for a baby...And there's a reason I never had kids. (I lack patience.)


At least torts will never answer you back when they are teenagers!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

...Or wreck my car.


----------



## Lyn W

.......or 'borrow' money...


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Lyn W said:


> .......or 'borrow' money...


............Or ask for advice and then don't listen to it.
(Borrow means that you'll pay it back one day)


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Two days of soaks and two new days of eating by mouth!
Yesterday a bite or two and today some dog food, collard greens and bibb lettuce. Quite a bit of food.
I actually watched her and she began eating the moment I placed it in front of her.
It's warm and over 90% humid outside today.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Two days of soaks and two new days of eating by mouth!
> Yesterday a bite or two and today some dog food, collard greens and bibb lettuce. Quite a bit of food.
> I actually watched her and she began eating the moment I placed it in front of her.
> It's warm and over 90% humid outside today.


Right happy for you. Keep bathing. Looking good.


----------



## mike taylor

Hopefully she will recover soon . I've been keeping up with her progress it's looking good .


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Thanks Mike.
I placed a second plate of dogfood and Mazuri mixed in there since she seems to be off of the lettuce and fruit and she ate the whole thing!
She also walked over 12 feet to her dog house and is inside sleeping.
This is by far the most she has ever eaten and it's good protein!


----------



## mike taylor

Cool hopefully she is going to be fine . Have you found any poop?


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Yes, that first poop is going to be the most exciting thing.
I want to see a photo of some poop!
Golly.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Thanks Mike.
> I placed a second plate of dogfood and Mazuri mixed in there since she seems to be off of the lettuce and fruit and she ate the whole thing!
> She also walked over 12 feet to her dog house and is inside sleeping.
> This is by far the most she has ever eaten and it's good protein!


Fantastic news! So pleased for you and Bertha!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Yes. That's one "deuce" I'm anxious to see as well. 
Nothing yet.


----------



## teresaf

I love the new Avatar... : )


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Yesterday and today she ate what I would call full meals. On Her own. Today a lot of wetted dog food and Mazuri and then a thumb sized piece if cooked chicken.
she has been offered a lot of things including fruit, but she only wants protein right now.
The only difference has been the daily soaks.
So far so good.
My hopes have been up before. But this is the most she has EVER eaten. Period.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

We're all with you in hoping she keeps eating this time.
It's good news, anyway.


----------



## Jodie

Way to stick in there with her. So glad she has you.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She has only recently been able to use her legs. (She was too week to lift her own weight.)
I'm making her an exercise area in the yard and I'll start watching her to monitor her progress. She moved about 12 feet today and there are no drag marks....She actually walks.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

More good news.
Little by little.
12 feet's more than wifey manages some days.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> She has only recently been able to use her legs. (She was too week to lift her own weight.)
> I'm making her an exercise area in the yard and I'll start watching her to monitor her progress. She moved about 12 feet today and there are no drag marks....She actually walks.


Well I just woke up to catch up on your thread, and so far it's a good day. She's building her strength back up with protein I guess, and warm baths look to have sprung her into live. So happy for you.


----------



## teresaf

Tidgy's Dad said:


> More good news.
> Little by little.
> 12 feet's more than wifey manages some days.


Ohhhhhh...you're so bad! Lol


----------



## Lyn W

I look every day to see if there's any more news and its so great that it's all been good lately, helps me start my day with a smile!
I know you are wary of being too optimistic, Ed but I am so pleased for you that she is stronger.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Continued success. This morning while still inside her plastic tote she ate dog food and four blueberries.
I placed her in the outside isolation pen and she is eating Mazuri and purslane....even while being photographed!
It seems like the daily soaks have flipped a switch....
Wish us luck for this trend to continue.
This marks day 3 of her eating a real meal on her own. Not just a nibble.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Continued success. This morning while still inside her plastic tote she ate dog food and four blueberries.
> I placed her in the outside isolation pen and she is eating Mazuri and purslane....even while being photographed!
> It seems like the daily soaks have flipped a switch....
> Wish us luck for this trend to continue.
> This marks day 3 of her eating a real meal on her own. Not just a nibble.


Good luck. Luck didn't come into it. It was your care for her thats done it. She looks a nice tort. Where exactly does the pipe feed into her.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Excellent news.
Best news of the week.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Continued success. This morning while still inside her plastic tote she ate dog food and four blueberries.
> I placed her in the outside isolation pen and she is eating Mazuri and purslane....even while being photographed!
> It seems like the daily soaks have flipped a switch....
> Wish us luck for this trend to continue.
> This marks day 3 of her eating a real meal on her own. Not just a nibble.


Wonderful to see! Thanks for the pics Ed.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

The pipe has been surgically inserted into her stomach.


Anyfoot said:


> Good luck. Luck didn't come into it. It was your care for her thats done it. She looks a nice tort. Where exactly does the pipe feed into her.


----------



## ShannonC

I haven't been posting, but I sure have been keeping check on this thread!! I am SO glad she is doing better now!! I was sad when I got on here, after being off for a while, and found out she had declined so much!! I sure am glad she has such a devoted human!!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

ShannonC said:


> I haven't been posting, but I sure have been keeping check on this thread!! I am SO glad she is doing better now!! I was sad when I got on here, after being off for a while, and found out she had declined so much!! I sure am glad she has such a devoted human!!


Thanks..
She is doing her part now. I have higher hopes than ever at this point. 
Hopefully no more set backs.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Even with the about 30 ml of Pedialite, she was getting more and more dehydrated every day. It is flat out amazing how much water she puts down each day. The water soaks and her drinking the water have really done wonders. She really is eating.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Even with the about 30 ml of Pedialite, she was getting more and more dehydrated every day. It is flat out amazing how much water she puts down each day. The water soaks and her drinking the water have really done wonders. She really is eating.


It's ridiculous how much a tort can drink in one go. I've noticed this before. Like camels lol.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

....so with just injection feedings it would be very hard to keep a tortoise the size of Bertha hydrated.
Something I'll be sure to pass on.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> ....so with just injection feedings it would be very hard to keep a tortoise the size of Bertha hydrated.
> Something I'll be sure to pass on.


Sounds that way to me. In my hinge back torts I have several water holes. 1 is a cat water dish about 4" diameter and 1.5" deep. I once saw one of them drink at least half this dish full. Bearing in mind this is only 6" tort. Can you imagine all the torts out there as pets, dehydrating because of bad advice. I think I was guilty of this about 15yrs ago with 2 juvenile hermanns. Wet and torts didn't go together back then.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

My other tortoises spend part of the day soaking in their pools. Maybe drinking. Maybe cooling off. maybe both.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Even with the about 30 ml of Pedialite, she was getting more and more dehydrated every day. It is flat out amazing how much water she puts down each day. The water soaks and her drinking the water have really done wonders. She really is eating.


Another great news day! I am so so happy she is doing well.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Lyn W said:


> Another great news day! I am so so happy she is doing well.


This isn't like before. This is some REAL eating.
Thanks!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

More "firsts."
She would never eat or drink out of bowls or off of plates, but for the last three days sh'e been eating out of plates and yesterday, she began to drink out of a shallow bowl, so soaking her whole body won't be as critical.
She ate another full rounded plate full of Mazuri with dog food. She still wont eat greens or fruit. She did eat a sprig of purslane.
Still no poop.
Next vet visit is the 23rd this month.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> More "firsts."
> She would never eat or drink out of bowls or off of plates, but for the last three days sh'e been eating out of plates and yesterday, she began to drink out of a shallow bowl, so soaking her whole body won't be as critical.
> She ate another full rounded plate full of Mazuri with dog food. She still wont eat greens or fruit. She did eat a sprig of purslane.
> Still no poop.
> Next vet visit is the 23rd this month.


Cool. At this point I wouldn't be to concerned of what she eats, aslong as she's eating its an improvement. All sounds good. Did you ever weigh her when she was at her lowest. Be interesting to see what weight she gets too as she starts pooping again.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She was under ten pounds at her lowest. I'll get another weight at the vets. (My digital scale is malfunctioning.)
Her sister is over 17 pounds.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> More "firsts."
> She would never eat or drink out of bowls or off of plates, but for the last three days sh'e been eating out of plates and yesterday, she began to drink out of a shallow bowl, so soaking her whole body won't be as critical.
> She ate another full rounded plate full of Mazuri with dog food. She still wont eat greens or fruit. She did eat a sprig of purslane.
> Still no poop.
> Next vet visit is the 23rd this month.


Fantastic!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Here's some news for those of you that have been supporting me in this matter...
Drum roll please: Bertha crapped.
It was the best looking thing I've ever seen, too!
She also ate two plates full of Mazuri and Nutro dog food and five blueberies.


----------



## gingerbee

Wow what a feat!! Congrats!!


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Here's some news for those of you that have been supporting me in this matter...
> Drum roll please: Bertha crapped.
> It was the best looking thing I've ever seen, too!
> She also ate two plates full of Mazuri and Nutro dog food and five blueberies.


That is brilliant - definitely not to be sniffed at!! Well done Bertha!!
Hopefully no turning back now Ed you have done a great job - as has Bertha!


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

I want a photo of the crap!


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Here's some news for those of you that have been supporting me in this matter...
> Drum roll please: Bertha crapped.
> It was the best looking thing I've ever seen, too!
> She also ate two plates full of Mazuri and Nutro dog food and five blueberies.


Excellent news ed. I feel a positive mood about you. Time for a clean joke.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

The tote that she has been in 20 or so hours a day was lined with clean towels..Because she had never been dirty.
I had to throw away the towels. Now she's on newspaper.
If her tube gets removed on the 23rd, she can go back outside into the isolation pen for observation and with the other girls every day to eat and to get used to them again.
I'm already talking like this is over. It's not. But, it's closer than it was.


----------



## ShannonC

Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will definitely be doing my HAPPY DANCE for Bertha!!!!!!!!!

It's not over, but that is a major hurdle to conquer on the path to wellness!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Thanks, Shannon!


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Anyfoot said:


> Excellent news ed. I feel a positive mood about you. Time for a clean joke.
> View attachment 139129


I tried using Tidgy for this purpose.
But she's not very absorbent.


----------



## Jodie

Great news. When my leopard was sick it was amazing to me how happy poop made me. What an ordeal she has put you through. I am so glad it has turned around, and am hoping it continues for you.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

More food tonight. Not much, but lots more poop!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I'm bringing the poop to the vet so that maybe we can finally determine what the cause or her illness was/is.
Even though I'm almost certain that it's not a gut related thing.
(Everyone else is still fine.)


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'm bringing the poop to the vet so that maybe we can finally determine what the cause or her illness was/is.
> Even though I'm almost certain that it's not a gut related thing.
> (Everyone else is still fine.)


Dont forget to get her weight. I'm intrigued to see how much weight they can loose and still survive. Looking good isn't it.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I know that she lost over seven pounds total and maybe more. Her sister is 22 pounds right now and at the same size, Bertha was down to 8.8 on her vet visit when the tube was placed.
No food in for over three months. And then only injected food for another month, basically.
Yes. Right now she is looking very good.
I no longer expect her to die.


----------



## tortdad

Good save Ed


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> The tote that she has been in 20 or so hours a day was lined with clean towels..Because she had never been dirty.
> I had to throw away the towels. Now she's on newspaper.
> If her tube gets removed on the 23rd, she can go back outside into the isolation pen for observation and with the other girls every day to eat and to get used to them again.
> I'm already talking like this is over. It's not. But, it's closer than it was.


GREAT to hear. Bertha is definitely better and wishes to got VERY WELL sooooooooon!!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Yesterday she walked at a pretty fast pace. It looked almost normal.
Her strength has about doubled.


----------



## mike taylor

It's amazing what a good poop will do .


----------



## ZEROPILOT

mike taylor said:


> It's amazing what a good poop will do .


If there was a blockage, it's been blown out of there. Yesterdays poo was solid. Also a first.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yesterday she walked at a pretty fast pace. It looked almost normal.
> Her strength has about doubled.


Well done....BERTHA!!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Gillian Moore said:


> Well done....BERTHA!!


Yes. Sh'e proven to be a fighter.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yes. Sh'e proven to be a fighter.


Sure she has. Am delighted to have read that.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She's roaming the back yard now. Quite a distance already and she ate 18 blueberries cut in half. One Mulberry leaf and a bowl of Mazuri. Again she ignored the greens.
She is likely grazing in the yard.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Every day the news gets better.
Soon she'll be well enough to visit The Cold Dark Room.


----------



## Lyn W

So pleased that Bertha is off the critical list. The only way must definitely be up from now.
Happy days!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

It's been raining and I haven't wanted Berthas operation area to get dirty, so I've kept her in her 60 gallon tote for two days.
She ate this morning and I went out grocery shopping and came back to find her dead.
Apparently she tried to climb up the corner with her neck extended and slid back down.
I found her jammed into the corner with her head and neck up in the air.
She is limp with her eyes open. Arms dangling and no movement or reaction. 
She's gone.
Thanks again for everyone's help.


----------



## johnsonnboswell

Oh, how sad!


----------



## johnandjade

i'm so sorry for your loss, it must be heartbreaking


----------



## keepergale

What a shame. I have been following the saga with high hopes.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Bertha has died. Not from illness or starvation. But from a freak accident inside her 60 gallon tote that was intended to keep her safe.
She must have tried to climb up the corner of her tote with her renewed energy and slid down with her neck extended and suffocated.
She was found jammed in the corner with her head looking straight up. Neck extended. Eyes open and very dead.
After all of this, she still didn't make it.
I'm quite sick about this.
Thanks for your support.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Oh for ****'s sake, the poor girl.
After all this, I actually feel physically sick myself.
So, so sorry Ed.
I think i'm going to cry.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Life is just not fair.


----------



## Lyn W

Ed I am devastated to hear this, she has been doing so well lately.
I hope you can take some comfort in knowing that you did all you could for her
and during her last few days she has been enjoying a relatively normal torty existence.
I am so very sorry for your loss, Take care.


----------



## 4jean

What horrible news. I am so sorry for your loss. You took such incredible care of Bertha. You will be in my thoughts.


----------



## Lyn W

I am so upset for Bertha and you Ed, what a tragic turn of events.


----------



## Yvonne G

Oh Sxxxt! I just knew she was on the road to recovery. I'm so sorry to hear this. Dang it anyways!


----------



## Gillian M

Very sorry to have just read about Bertha's death. It reallly did break my heart, especially after all that you did for her.

We're all here to support you Ed, and if yo need to talk (though I have a feeling you don't want to talk to ANYONE), I am all listening ears.

Try to relax, and take care.


----------



## leigti

I am so sorry.


----------



## domalle

ZEROPILOT said:


> It's been raining and I haven't wanted Berthas operation area to get dirty, so I've kept her in her 60 gallon tote for two days.
> She ate this morning and I went out grocery shopping and came back to find her dead.
> Apparently she tried to climb up the corner with her neck extended and slid back down.
> I found her jammed into the corner with her head and neck up in the air.
> She is limp with her eyes open. Arms dangling and no movement or reaction.
> She's gone.
> Thanks again for everyone's help.



Very sorry to hear of your loss.
When a tortoise dies with its head and neck outstretched and propped up in a corner, it is usually trying to draw breath.
Were the problems possibly pneumonia related?
You should be commended for your heroic efforts on behalf of this animal.
Dan O


----------



## wellington

I am so very sorry. I too thought she was going to be fine.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

There was foam around her mouth and she is making some small movements. But they look involuntary. For example, she doesn't blink if I touch her eyes.
I fed her Pedialite because she lost a lot of liquid. (Poo)
I'll bury her in the morning if she doesn't move.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

I don't want to raise hopes, as she's probably dead, but aren't tortoises supposed to go stiff and have shrunken eyes when they're dead?
i've heard of them going into shock and being seemingly dead and not reacting to a stimulus and then recovering.
if you are in any doubt at all then give her warm soaks and touch her feet .
I'm horrified by this, but would feel awful if I thought that you'd buried a live tortoise.
Sorry again, Ed, but I was fond of the little girl myself.
Sorry.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

It's all very confusing.
She isn't completely dead. At least I don't think.
I've been washing her and her bedding. Her legs move.
This is the state that she was in before all of this ever happened. Before the surgery and tube.
I just don't get it


----------



## newCH

I am so sorry. That is so sad. I'm sure she appreciates how well you take care of her. Her legs move ?


----------



## Yvonne G

The foam at the mouth suggests she got too hot. Hopefully you can bring her around. I would use a CHE instead of a light for a while, with plenty of shelter for her to get away from the direct heat.


----------



## meech008

Aw man :'( what a rough day for you :-(


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Like I say, I've heard of this shock reaction.
Don't give up on her yet!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Yvonne G said:


> The foam at the mouth suggests she got too hot. Hopefully you can bring her around. I would use a CHE instead of a light for a while, with plenty of shelter for her to get away from the direct heat.


She's inside my enclosed porch with temps around 10 to 15 degrees cooler than outside and she has no other heat source. I place her outdoors almost everyday but didn't today Bacause of all of the rain and mud.
She is sleeping now with her head and legs pulled in and she wiggled when I touched her shell at her rear end.
What could possibly be going on?
I'll check on her first thing in the morning. If I sleep that is..
Clearly I was wrong and she is not dead.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Tidgy's Dad said:


> I don't want to raise hopes, as she's probably dead, but aren't tortoises supposed to go stiff and have shrunken eyes when they're dead?
> i've heard of them going into shock and being seemingly dead and not reacting to a stimulus and then recovering.
> if you are in any doubt at all then give her warm soaks and touch her feet .
> I'm horrified by this, but would feel awful if I thought that you'd buried a live tortoise.
> Sorry again, Ed, but I was fond of the little girl myself.
> Sorry.


I already had a burial spot picked out. But she is coming back around...


----------



## Eric Phillips

Sounds like a fighter! Pray she comes through ok.


----------



## 4jean

Wow, I can't believe this!! I have been reading every Bertha post throughout this whole saga, I am so glad there is hope!! Thoughts and prayers are with you. What an emotional roller coaster.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Yes and I'd like to apologize to anyone I've made crazy by all of these posts.
The truth is that there is no one here locally that gives a damn.
I do my venting here.


----------



## Jodie

Oh my gosh! I just saw this and went from devastated to relief and hope. You have been so great with her. I will continue to hope for the best for her.


----------



## leigti

ZEROPILOT said:


> I already had a burial spot picked out. But she is coming back around...


That is good news, I am cautiously optimistic. She hasn't given up so don't you give up. Just know that there are many people here that are rooting for her and you.


----------



## Jodie

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yes and I'd like to apologize to anyone I've made crazy by all of these posts.
> The truth is that there is no one here locally that gives a damn.
> I do my venting here.


Please do not stop the updates. We are happy to provide whatever support we can.


----------



## 4jean

Vent away, you deserve it!


----------



## gingerbee

OMG I'm so sorry. This is terrible. Take care of yourself.


----------



## gingerbee

Wow! Just saw the update. Fingers crossed for both of you!!


----------



## Momof4

Wow, I'm so glad I read all the responses because I was just going to leave my condolences to you!!

That girl is a fighter!


----------



## dmmj

Once a tortoise dies, their eyes sink in and of course they stiffen
I am thinking she may have suffered a stroke or seizure, def. tare but not unheard of.


----------



## leigti

gingerbee said:


> OMG I'm so sorry. This is terrible. Take care of yourself.


Check out the thread titled big Bertha has died. It's not as bad as it sounds. There might be some hope, maybe. I really hope so.


----------



## tortdad

Wow. I just read all of this. You've got a fighter Ed.


----------



## bouaboua

I hope she will be fine in the morning! ! !Best wishes!! ! ! !


----------



## stojanovski92113

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yes and I'd like to apologize to anyone I've made crazy by all of these posts.
> The truth is that there is no one here locally that gives a damn.
> I do my venting here.


OMG?!!? I just read this and nearly cried...I don't know you or Big Bertha but I have been following your posts in regards to her and when I saw this post...it broke my heart. As I read more I couldn't believe she's still alive. I'm rooting for her. Not sure what's going on with her but she's had one hell of a year so far. She's a fighter. I'll be itching to hear about any new updates on Bertha. And...vent away. We are all here for ya! Fingers crossed for Big Bertha!!!


----------



## JoesMum

@ZEROPILOT I am SO sorry to hear this tragic news   My thoughts are with you


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yes and I'd like to apologize to anyone I've made crazy by all of these posts.
> The truth is that there is no one here locally that gives a damn.
> I do my venting here.


You are more than welcome, Ed.
We share this with you, don't apologize, it'd be terrible if we didn't know what was going on after all this time.
With you and Bertha all the way, my friend.


----------



## Lyn W

Bertha's still with you and so are we Ed - all the way!
My positive thoughts and good wishes are with you both.


----------



## Dylanruenz

Keep us updated, she is a fighter! I wish you the best =)


----------



## newCH

Wow, you deserve to vent. Hang in there. 
Best wishes she hangs in there.


----------



## Odin's Gma

I am on pins and needles waiting for news, I actually awoke in the middle of the night thinking of you both. Wishing you the best.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> It's been raining and I haven't wanted Berthas operation area to get dirty, so I've kept her in her 60 gallon tote for two days.
> She ate this morning and I went out grocery shopping and came back to find her dead.
> Apparently she tried to climb up the corner with her neck extended and slid back down.
> I found her jammed into the corner with her head and neck up in the air.
> She is limp with her eyes open. Arms dangling and no movement or reaction.
> She's gone.
> Thanks again for everyone's help.


Heard that Bertha is alive.....what a reief, and good news it really was.


----------



## Gillian M

Tidgy's Dad said:


> I don't want to raise hopes, as she's probably dead, but aren't tortoises supposed to go stiff and have shrunken eyes when they're dead?
> i've heard of them going into shock and being seemingly dead and not reacting to a stimulus and then recovering.
> if you are in any doubt at all then give her warm soaks and touch her feet .
> I'm horrified by this, but would feel awful if I thought that you'd buried a live tortoise.
> Sorry again, Ed, but I was fond of the little girl myself.
> Sorry.




Hope is the last thing to die.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Bertha has died. Not from illness or starvation. But from a freak accident inside her 60 gallon tote that was intended to keep her safe.
> She must have tried to climb up the corner of her tote with her renewed energy and slid down with her neck extended and suffocated.
> She was found jammed in the corner with her head looking straight up. Neck extended. Eyes open and very dead.
> After all of this, she still didn't make it.
> I'm quite sick about this.
> Thanks for your support.


For xxxx sake. I'm gutted. This has upset me. So sorry ed. I can't believe it.


----------



## Lyn W

Anyfoot said:


> For xxxx sake. I'm gutted. This has upset me. So sorry ed. I can't believe it.


Read on in Big bertha has died Craig - all is not lost!!!


----------



## tortdad

How is she this morning Ed


----------



## Anyfoot

Lyn W said:


> Read on in Big bertha has died Craig - all is not lost!!!


Where is the thread. I can't find it. Getting hairiated here. Computer not working and phone is crap. What section is it. Thanks Lyn. I'm shaking.


----------



## Lyn W

It's in tort health section - Big Bertha has died


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yes and I'd like to apologize to anyone I've made crazy by all of these posts.
> The truth is that there is no one here locally that gives a damn.
> I do my venting here.


Ed. I've only just heard about your dead living Bertha. Jesus Christ ed. That knocked me for 6. Glad we are overseas friends. Dont think I could cope with you as a close friend.  never a dull moment. Anyway. What's happening now. Is she OK. Are you OK more to the point.


----------



## kathyth

I'm pulling for Bertha!!


----------



## tortadise

That's very unfortunate to hear. I'd recommend a necropsy. It's hard to think about, but it will yield numerous results that were in question during the whole time of her ailments. Histopath would be great too. Is the corpse still in tact at all and hasn't been warm or decomposing?


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

tortadise said:


> That's very unfortunate to hear. I'd recommend a necropsy. It's hard to think about, but it will yield numerous results that were in question during the whole time of her ailments. Histopath would be great too. Is the corpse still in tact at all and hasn't been warm or decomposing?


Still alive, we hope.


----------



## JoesMum

How are things going? It seems like the whole forum is sending willpower to keep her going... Hang on in there Bertha.


----------



## stojanovski92113

???!!! I can't take the anticipation anymore


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yes and I'd like to apologize to anyone I've made crazy by all of these posts.
> The truth is that there is no one here locally that gives a damn.
> I do my venting here.


What's happening ed?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She is alive this morning and won't come out of her shell although when I put her outside this morning she walked about five feet to sit on a cement pad.
She is once again very lethargic and she is no longer eating and not drinking when i soak her so it's all tube feedings again.
She and I and her poo sample are going back to the vet for the most extensive round of tests ever.
No NOT dead.


----------



## leigti

Well, I guess I wouldn't expect her to eat after her traumatic day yesterday. It seems like tortoises really perk up when they're outside, maybe try to keep her out more today? Just a thought though. I'm glad she still with us. Let us know what the vet says.


----------



## G-stars

What an emotional roller coaster you have gone through. I hope she pulls through. Good luck at the vet today Ed.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> She is alive this morning and won't come out of her shell although when I put her outside this morning she walked about five feet to sit on a cement pad.
> She is once again very lethargic and she is no longer eating and not drinking when i soak her so it's all tube feedings again.
> She and I and her poo sample are going back to the vet for the most extensive round of tests ever.
> No NOT dead.


Good luck at the vets. I bet she's just shuck up after her ordeal. Fingers crossed here for you.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> She is alive this morning and won't come out of her shell although when I put her outside this morning she walked about five feet to sit on a cement pad.
> She is once again very lethargic and she is no longer eating and not drinking when i soak her so it's all tube feedings again.
> She and I and her poo sample are going back to the vet for the most extensive round of tests ever.
> No NOT dead.


Ed. I'm far from a vet. But could she have water in her lungs. Has your vet suggested pipe feeding again. If she does have water in her is pipe feeding wise. Just a thought and hope someone else on here can comment on this.


----------



## johnandjade

fingers, toes and everything else crossed for you


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Anyfoot said:


> Ed. I'm far from a vet. But could she have water in her lungs. Has your vet suggested pipe feeding again. If she does have water in her is pipe feeding wise. Just a thought and hope someone else on here can comment on this.


She was fitted with an Esophagostamy tube. It's a simple surgery that places a tube semi permanently into her stomach to inject food directly into the stomach.
I don't feed her with a pipette as is more common.
This tube enters her body at the base of her neck and makes normal eating also possible.
My vet hasn't answered her Emails. I already have an appointment for Thursday. I'm going to try to see her sooner. It was an appointment to see about removing the tube. Now it's going to be another battery of tests.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> She was fitted with an Esophagostamy tube. It's a simple surgery that places a tube semi permanently into her stomach to inject food directly into the stomach.
> I don't feed her with a pipette as is more common.
> This tube enters her body at the base of her neck and makes normal eating also possible.
> My vet hasn't answered her Emails. I already have an appointment for Thursday. I'm going to try to see her sooner. It was an appointment to see about removing the tube. Now it's going to be another battery of tests.


OK. How are you holding up. It's been one heck of a rollercoaster with Bertha.


----------



## leigti

Anyfoot said:


> OK. How are you holding up. It's been one heck of a rollercoaster with Bertha.


I agree. I would be a wreck by now. I guess both of you are pretty tough.


----------



## Odin's Gma

I feel like I should send her a care package full of...everything. I have so much tort food and I just want her to eat.....it's a mom thing, when I worry I want to feed critters....
So glad to hear she is hanging in there, and thank you for keeping us updated. I know I am not the only one worrying and obsessing over her.


----------



## 4jean

Glad that she is hanging in. Big Bertha us a tough broad. I hope you are as tough as her!


----------



## wellington

Glad you posted about the turn of events. You know we are all pulling for the two of you. I would imagine she would still be very weak after all that has been happening. I think I would keep up the pedialyte soaks. Maybe add some baby food carrots to the soaks too. Hang in there. We are here for you.


----------



## Lyn W

I suppose the good thing is that she was eating better before this setback so she must have a little reserve in her. 
Watching and waiting for the latest news.
Hope you are OK Ed.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Just a setback, hopefully.
The weight and food she'd put on and taken in before this will still count for something.
Hopefully, she'll recover quicker this time.


----------



## newCH

Can't wait to hear how the vet appt goes - fingers crossed everything
goes well !


----------



## Kenno

Ed, I'm so sorry for your loss.
Your efforts were heroic!
I look forward to reading anything else you will post.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She is not dead. Kind of a tortoise zombie right now.
I'm not sure what to make of it. I'm trying to get a vet appointment ASAP
Not good but better than Saturday.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I think my ulcer has returned.
This is nuts.
I'm getting every test that I can done. This has to stop.
I'll update once I've spoken to my vet.


----------



## leigti

ZEROPILOT said:


> I think my ulcer has returned.
> This is nuts.
> I'm getting every test that I can done. This has to stop.
> I'll update once I've spoken to my vet.


So you don't know exactly what happened yesterday? Any guesses? I wouldn't be too worried about her not eating and things right now, sounds like she was through a lot yesterday. She may be the most tested and documented tortoise on this forum  we are all rooting for her and I respect the fact that you are still trying and doing what you can for her. That takes dedication.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Considerably better than what we thought for a while.
She so wants to live, like Tidgy when i first got her.
Months of fighting, pain and anguish for us both, but she made it in the end.
keep going.
Both of you.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She's not moving this morning. But she pulled her feet in tighter when I touch them. Her head and legs are pulled in. Not dead.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Monday morning. She is alive and pulled into her shell. I've fed her "Critical Care" and Pedialite (By injection) and she hasn't moved an inch.
I'll start phoning the vet at 9 and get her in ASAP.


----------



## tortdad

Good luck buddy


----------



## ZEROPILOT

We're at the vet now. Waiting on her blood work.
Checking on organs.


----------



## Odin's Gma

Sending you both ALL the good vibes and well wishes and whatever else you need.


----------



## mike taylor

Hopefully they find something this time . It's got to be some kind of parasite . Maybe lime disease from a tick or something ?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

No parasites. No organ failure. Blood count and advanced blood work being sent out.
Another X ray.
She's sending her home with antibiotics that I must inject. Some sort of issue found there.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> No parasites. No organ failure. Blood count and advanced blood work being sent out.
> Another X ray.
> She's sending her home with antibiotics that I must inject. Some sort of issue found there.


Good news that no organ failure, hopefully the blood tests/xray will show what's going on when the results are back.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

The antibiotic is Fortaz. One shot every three days.
The vet says she is too bad off to wait until Thursday when the results come back.
X ray just showed that she is full of food. That part is good.


----------



## newCH

No organ failure is good. Maybe with this bloodwork you will
get this mystery solved and atleast know what your dealing with.
Hang in there Bertha !


----------



## tortadise

ZEROPILOT said:


> The antibiotic is Fortaz. One shot every three days.
> The vet says she is too bad off to wait until Thursday when the results come back.
> X ray just showed that she is full of food. That part is good.


How often are you force feeding Her? Doesn't she have a traciotmy tube in correct? If she's not active and moving I'd limit the feedings heavily. Fortaz is a good general antibiotic. It's most effective when the core temp is at 80-85. Heat up a blanket and wrap it around her. That may also aid in passing excrement too. She could be getting sepsis. Does she deficate/urinate much since she's been force fed?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She's tube fed with an Esophagostomy tube. Not force fed through the mouth. The temps are at least 85 degrees inside the room where she is recovering and outside in the isolation pen.
Since she started eating eleven days in a row, she has been pooping. She still is pooping. Just no longer eating and the vet has told me to limit the tube feedings to JUST Pedialite and no food. She also gets a daily soak.
Is not feeding during treatment normal?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Been back to the vet.
She starts her vet prescribed antibiotics today.
The blood work results will be available on Thursday.
she lives....


----------



## mike taylor

Trying to let her poop . So the food doesn't rot in her belly .


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Oh, She's pooping! It's the only sign that the lights are still on in there. She raises up and her tail comes out and goes back and forth and there is another one!
She ate for eleven days in a row and it was mostly Mazuri and dog food. It's all she would eat. So I let her.


----------



## leigti

I think you should merge these two threads together.


----------



## Tort Love

I will Keep praying for her keep us posted


----------



## ZEROPILOT

leigti said:


> I think you should merge these two threads together.


Yes. Should I ask a mod?
The whole thing has gotten messy.


----------



## leigti

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yes. Should I ask a mod?
> The whole thing has gotten messy.


I would. Speaking just for me  it can get hard to jump between the two threads. But it is up to you, it's your thread. But it's a very popular one.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I just asked.


----------



## tortadise

mike taylor said:


> Trying to let her poop . So the food doesn't rot in her belly .


Yes, sepsis Is very bad.


----------



## tortadise

ZEROPILOT said:


> I just asked.


Which two need merging?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

According to my Alert. The two posts about Bertha have now been merged.


----------



## Kenno

Now you should revise the topic name to take out the "D" word:
*Big Bertha: Still hanging on*


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> According to my Alert. The two posts about Bertha have now been merged.


Any improvement ed.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Same. I just soaked her and injected 30 MG of Pedialite.
She didn't drink or poop. Hasn't in two days.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Same. I just soaked her and injected 30 MG of Pedialite.
> She didn't drink or poop. Hasn't in two days.


I'm a bit confused as to why she has gone back into this state. You said you find her upside down in the water. When she was originally in a docile state. Before she seemed to be recovering did you ever find her upside down? I mean prior to the docile state.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I never found her upside down. I found her limp and motionless in a corner.
Before that she had 11 full days of eating, new strength and she regained the ability to walk.....Then WHAM. All gone.
So far I do not have the blood panel test results back yet.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

This vet visit I requested any and all tests to find the cause of her illness.
Making her eat wasn't enough.
I simply don't have the data yet.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> I never found her upside down. I found her limp and motionless in a corner.


I should record her weight every day. Is she loosing weight again? You now know what weight she went down to and still started to recover up until the water incident. Maybe she was stressed on the first occasion from been dropped into a new environment. This time she is stressed from nearly drowning. Think I'm right in saying torts stop eating when stressed. I cant help thinking that force feeding is not natural for just a stressed tort. For a tort that is of other ill health maybe then forcefeed is required. Just trying to throw suggestions in the pot and maybe it will develope other suggestions. I go all day thinking of you situation on and off. Sad. Also there must be hefty vet bills. Would be here. £140 just for an xray at my local vet. IPhone need to get that one covered. Lol. Chin up.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> This vet visit I requested any and all tests to find the cause of her illness.
> Making her eat wasn't enough.
> I simply don't have the data yet.


So has she had more test results yet. Or are you still waiting for tomorrows visit to the vet for more tests.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She never has flipped over or almost drown.
I don't know where that came from.
She has been kept calm and warm. Why she seemed to die is a total mystery.

Some of the blood work taken at the vet had to be sent out.
Feeding with an Esophagostamy tube doesn't seem to cause distress and it is the only way to get nutrition into her.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Yes. I've spent a LOT of money on her.


----------



## wellington

Maybe @ALDABRAMAN can give some advice here, I don't know. I do know he had to tube feed one of his, the same way you are. I don't really know the reason or causes for his, but maybe he will see something familiar between the two. His btw, is eating on her own now without the tube.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Bertha has died. Not from illness or starvation. But from a freak accident inside her 60 gallon tote that was intended to keep her safe.
> She must have tried to climb up the corner of her tote with her renewed energy and slid down with her neck extended and suffocated.
> She was found jammed in the corner with her head looking straight up. Neck extended. Eyes open and very dead.
> After all of this, she still didn't make it.
> I'm quite sick about this.
> Thanks for your support.


Why did you think she must have suffocated? I thought you meant she slid down into her water dish. So she wasn't even on her back then.


----------



## Lyn W

Anyfoot said:


> Why did you think she must have suffocated? I thought you meant she slid down into her water dish. So she wasn't even on her back then.


Hi Craig I think this was such a shock and so upsetting after all the good news that it too a while to understand what had happened. I had to read it several times before it would sink in. Hopefully the test results today will throw some light on it all. Seems we are all on tenterhooks for Ed's girl.


----------



## Anyfoot

Lyn W said:


> Hi Craig I think this was such a shock and so upsetting after all the good news that it too a while to understand what had happened. I had to read it several times before it would sink in. Hopefully the test results today will through some light on it all. Seems we are all on tenterhooks for Ed's girl.


Thanks Lyn. Yeah I did franticaly scan read every post fast when I read she was dead. 
See how it goes today.


----------



## Lyn W

Anyfoot said:


> Thanks Lyn. Yeah I did franticaly scan read every post fast when I read she was dead.
> See how it goes today.


Fingers and toes all crossed!!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I found her in a corner with her feet down and head up over the top of her shell. It looked like maybe she climbed up and slid back down on the newspaper substrate.
That was a guess.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> I found her in a corner with her feet down and head up over the top of her shell. It looked like maybe she climbed up and slid back down on the newspaper substrate.
> That was a guess.


OK. When you said she was holding her head up I thought you meant she was upside down and holding head out of water. I had a hingebacks do this. Frightened me to death. Anyway. Have you been to vets today.


----------



## Anyfoot

Anyfoot said:


> OK. When you said she was holding her head up I thought you meant she was upside down and holding head out of water. I had a hingebacks do this. Frightened me to death. Anyway. Have you been to vets today.


I also now know why Yvonne said foaming at the mouth could be overheating. At the time I thought she was in water and can't be overheating. Obviously she could have been overheated. Does anyone know if torts foam at the mouth through exhaustion. Ive seen my male at it and start to foam before.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

The foam is mild pneumonia. The vet will contact me by phone or Email but hasn't yet.
Second round of antibiotics shots are today. I administer them.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> The foam is mild pneumonia. The vet will contact me by phone or Email but hasn't yet.
> Second round of antibiotics shots are today. I administer them.


Thanks for letting us know Ed.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> The foam is mild pneumonia. The vet will contact me by phone or Email but hasn't yet.
> Second round of antibiotics shots are today. I administer them.


Hi Ed. I just read your last post. Has the vet contact you? If so, please let me know what he/she said, asap. I sincerely hope to hear that Bertha is..... BETTER.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

The vet, Dr. Kelleher called.
"Bertha has a slightly elevated white blood count and whatever it is the antibiotics should wipe it out."
Pretty disappointing


----------



## wellington

ZEROPILOT said:


> The vet, Dr. Kelleher called.
> "Bertha has a slightly elevated white blood count and whatever it is the antibiotics should wipe it out."
> Pretty disappointing



Why disappointing? Sounds like things are looking pretty simple and good for a recovery. Did I miss something?


----------



## leigti

ZEROPILOT said:


> The vet, Dr. Kelleher called.
> "Bertha has a slightly elevated white blood count and whatever it is the antibiotics should wipe it out."
> Pretty disappointing


Didn't you say that she had a little pneumonia? That's why the blood count is off. Could be a lot worse. Keep plugging along, you and her


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> The vet, Dr. Kelleher called.
> "Bertha has a slightly elevated white blood count and whatever it is the antibiotics should wipe it out."
> Pretty disappointing


So I think high white cel count means the immune system is vulnerable. The antibiotics should over come this issue. What are you thinking ed? Was you expecting something more severe. Are you thinking this is not a big enough problem to cause the issues you have had with her? Did the vet explain what high white cell count means.


----------



## Gillian M

wellington said:


> Why disappointing? Sounds like things are looking pretty simple and good for a recovery. Did I miss something?


I was going to ask the same question.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> The vet, Dr. Kelleher called.
> "Bertha has a slightly elevated white blood count and whatever it is the antibiotics should wipe it out."
> Pretty disappointing


Hello Ed. Your above post implies that Bertha is slightly better. What is disappointing you? Please explain. Thanks.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

I think Ed may have been disappointed with the inconclusive result.
He may have been hoping for a more concrete,"this was the problem all along, it was naughtybacilli"or whatever.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Ed.


----------



## Gillian M

Tidgy's Dad said:


> I think Ed may have been disappointed with the inconclusive result.
> He may have been hoping for a more concrete,"this was the problem all along, it was naughtybacilli"or whatever.
> Correct me if I'm wrong, Ed.


Thanks the explanation Adam. Let's wait and see what Ed has to say.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Tidgy's Dad said:


> I think Ed may have been disappointed with the inconclusive result.
> He may have been hoping for a more concrete,"this was the problem all along, it was naughtybacilli"or whatever.
> Correct me if I'm wrong, Ed.


Yes. Exactly. Sometimes I don't articulate very well. Especially when under stress.
I was hoping for a pin point reason why she was so ill. Certainly not MILD pneumonia.
I gave her her second shot last night.
Thanks everyone. We'll all celebrate together if this ever ends.


----------



## Pearly

ZEROPILOT said:


> The foam is mild pneumonia. The vet will contact me by phone or Email but hasn't yet.
> Second round of antibiotics shots are today. I administer them.


Hi, I just ran across this thread looking for something else in health section (proper ways to take measurements). I am sorry to hear you have to deal with illness in the animal. Just to throw my few cents, the foam from mouth/nose can be indicative of pulmonary edema in humans (not sure about reptiles) which basically means swelling/fluid in the lungs, often caused by infections, cardiorespiratory system compromised by injury, infections etc


----------



## Pearly

ZEROPILOT said:


> The vet, Dr. Kelleher called.
> "Bertha has a slightly elevated white blood count and whatever it is the antibiotics should wipe it out."
> Pretty disappointing


Again, my few cents from what I've seen in humans: elevated white count (WBC's) in simple terms tells us that the body is fighting bacterial infection (unless there is some problem with blood cell production). I'm guessing that your vet is treating Bertha for pneumonia by the little info I read. I hope she responds to the antibiotics. Word of caution on antibiotics, in humans they can cause serious issues by messing up natural bacterial flora which keeps is alive. We know now to take probiotics and eat yogurts with live cultures etc. not sure what our veterinary medicine advises on reptiles. This will be one of the topics of my future research. Good luck with Bertha! I'm keeping my fingers crossed


----------



## Pearly

I just saw physical assessment article on this site that was posted by Yvonne. It had picture if "foaming" around mouth/nose titled "HYPERSALIVATION" which to me would sound like much lighter deal than pulmonary edema. I sure hope your Bertha recovers quickly


----------



## ZEROPILOT

The Antibiotics are not oral but injected into muscle.
The diagnosis was mildly elevated white blood count. The pneumonia was my wild guess.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

So far my guessing has been as accurate as the vets.....and cheaper too.
I truly hope that this general antibiotic is the mystery cure.
The injectable antibiotic was chosen over the oral because she wanted it to be fast acting. I'm not sure if she was concerned about wiping out the gut culture or not.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> So far my guessing has been as accurate as the vets.....and cheaper too.
> I truly hope that this general antibiotic is the mystery cure.


me too.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I like this vet. She responds to every Email and seems to care. I don't want anyone to think that I am unhappy with her. She's the best I've found......


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> I like this vet. She responds to every Email and seems to care. I don't want anyone to think that I am unhappy with her. She's the best I've found......


Seems to be a rare thing.
Already told you you should hit on her.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Seems to be a rare thing.
> Already told you you should hit on her.


She doesn't have an English accent....


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> She doesn't have an English accent....


ha de ha.
no deal then.


----------



## bouaboua

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yes. Exactly. Sometimes I don't articulate very well. Especially when under stress.
> I was hoping for a pin point reason why she was so ill. Certainly not MILD pneumonia.
> I gave her her second shot last night.
> Thanks everyone. We'll all celebrate together if this ever ends.


Thank you for the update and still remember for both of you! ! !


----------



## Lyn W

I've been wondering about her today but only just able to log in. No specific diagnosis but hopefully effective treatment. Your vet sounds great.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Berthas eyes track movement near her now.
She is conscious.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Berthas eyes track movement near her now.
> She is conscious.


Still conscious - still fighting!


----------



## Pearly

ZEROPILOT said:


> The Antibiotics are not oral but injected into muscle.
> The diagnosis was mildly elevated white blood count. The pneumonia was my wild guess.


It is pretty safe to assume the cause of illness is bacterial infection when white count is elevated. This empirical approach is often used in human medicine as well as being quick and cost effective. It has unfortunately been overused over past decades causing us to have to deal with "superbugs" these days. I think your vet is right in trying injectable broad spectrum antibiotic. Again, I'm only thinking from the human medicine point of view but I think that BASIC principles of medical science are similar if not this same.


----------



## Pearly

ZEROPILOT said:


> So far my guessing has been as accurate as the vets.....and cheaper too.
> I truly hope that this general antibiotic is the mystery cure.
> The injectable antibiotic was chosen over the oral because she wanted it to be fast acting. I'm not sure if she was concerned about wiping out the gut culture or not.


Not likely I don't think to many vets think along those lines, that's more of a human medicine holistic approach, but I think treating any living creature as "a whole" instead of just treating "a symptom" or symptoms might be of benefit. From your description Bertha sounded pretty sick. I'm glad to know she's showing signs of awareness of her surroundings. About probiotics... it would be interesting to know what if anything in tortoise diet/environment would help them rebuild their natural bacterial flora during and after round of antibiotics... I might look into that at some point, but not before I gain little "wind in my sails" in our baby tort care


----------



## ZEROPILOT

It's my understanding that they eat poop to Jumpstart their gut load. This may not be true.
Today she has her head out looking around and she kicks her legs when I pick her up but she isn't walking very far. Inches.
Thanks for any and all suggestions.


----------



## RockChalk

Beneficial bacteria are often found all over the weeds from your garden, provided you haven't sprayed any chemicals to disrupt that environment. Lactobacillus, for example, is the beneficial strain for humans that is grown when vegetables like cabbage are fermented because they are naturally found on those types of vegetables.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She drank while being soaked today and is more alert, still.
No other changes.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> She drank while being soaked today and is more alert, still.
> No other changes.


Hi Ed I know you've been here before but its still positive and a tiny step forwards rather than backwards. Thanks for letting us know. Hope you are OK


----------



## Rutibegga

Hey Ed, I've been following Big Bertha's saga since I joined the forum last week. It sounds like you at least have a lead on a cause now, which is good. It also sounds like you're seeing improvements, so there's hope! I'm keeping Bertha in my thoughts.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> She drank while being soaked today and is more alert, still.
> No other changes.


Sounds good ed. Keep the warm soaks going. Have you tempted her with food yet. Mazuri and dog food got her going last time. These must be her favorites.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> She drank while being soaked today and is more alert, still.
> No other changes.


How long is her course of antibiotics for?


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yes. Exactly. Sometimes I don't articulate very well. Especially when under stress.
> I was hoping for a pin point reason why she was so ill. Certainly not MILD pneumonia.
> I gave her her second shot last night.
> Thanks everyone. We'll all celebrate together if this ever ends.


Hi Ed. Keep up hope, please and once again: TRY to relax. 

And let's hope this end soon and very soon.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Another update and NOT a good one. I heard her moving around. She was restless and when I picked her up I found that she had pulled out her tube. There is no bleeding. No smell of infection.
I can't get ahold of my vet until monday.....


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Another update and NOT a good one. I heard her moving around. She was restless and when I picked her up I found that she had pulled out her tube. There is no bleeding. No smell of infection.
> I can't get ahold of my vet until monday.....


Jesus ed. Keep her clean around pipe hole.
Is she becoming active then?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Anyfoot said:


> Jesus ed. Keep her clean around pipe hole.
> Is she becoming active then?


Active enough to declare war on the tube.
I saw her looking at it. I think it annoyed her.
I can't reach the entry area as it is deep into her shoulder area. She was anesthetized to place it.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Active enough to declare war on the tube.
> I saw her looking at it. I think it annoyed her.
> I can't reach the entry area as it is deep into her shoulder area. She was anesthetized to place it.


Your 1st sentence made me smile. She's coming back around by the looks of things. 
Looking back now, do you think she has had pneumonia all along, and the first time she was getting over it without antibiotics, but with her burst of energy trying to get out of the tote it knocked her back to square one.


----------



## Merrick

ZEROPILOT said:


> Active enough to declare war on the tube.
> I saw her looking at it. I think it annoyed her.
> I can't reach the entry area as it is deep into her shoulder area. She was anesthetized to place it.


I hope everything works out when you see your vet also who is your vet


----------



## Angel Carrion

Well, if she is strong enough to pull it out and to move around and glare at it, that's a good thing, right? Not good that she pulled it out and has now declared war on it, but good that she has the strength to do so?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Anyfoot said:


> Your 1st sentence made me smile. She's coming back around by the looks of things.
> Looking back now, do you think she has had pneumonia all along, and the first time she was getting over it without antibiotics, but with her burst of energy trying to get out of the tote it knocked her back to square one.


That is my only guess. And it would be great if that were the case. We'll see how it goes.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Merrick said:


> I hope everything works out when you see your vet also who is your vet


Broward Avian and Exotic. Doctor Keleher. Nice lady. I've found none better...


----------



## Merrick

ZEROPILOT said:


> Broward Avian and Exotic. Doctor Keleher. Nice lady. I've found none better...


That's who I thought she is my vet to she is amazing. Proably cause she has a tortoise of her own


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Another update and NOT a good one. I heard her moving around. She was restless and when I picked her up I found that she had pulled out her tube. There is no bleeding. No smell of infection.
> I can't get ahold of my vet until monday.....


Hi Ed. So sorry to have just read your posts about poor Bertha. I'm still hoping to hear good news.


----------



## leigti

ZEROPILOT said:


> Active enough to declare war on the tube.
> I saw her looking at it. I think it annoyed her.
> I can't reach the entry area as it is deep into her shoulder area. She was anesthetized to place it.


Maybe it is good that she is strong enough to pull it out. Your vet doesn't have emergency coverage on the weekends? I know it's tough having repeated vet visits, I spent $800 in three days about a week ago. It does add up quickly.
I'm sorry to hear about her setbacks, but this is not unusual even in people. When people start to recover they start feeling better and then they are just strong enough to get themselves in trouble. They almost need more supervision than then when they are really sick. Animals are the same way. Maybe she won't have to have the tube put back in. Is she eating anything now? I mean on her own.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Active enough to declare war on the tube.
> I saw her looking at it. I think it annoyed her.
> I can't reach the entry area as it is deep into her shoulder area. She was anesthetized to place it.


At least the antibiotics should help keep infection at bay. Everything crossed for her again.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She is outside this morning. Now that there is no fear of her pulling out her tube I'll leave her out longer.
She is drinking on her own and I was already instructed not to feed her. Today she gets injection number 3.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Merrick said:


> That's who I thought she is my vet to she is amazing. Proably cause she has a tortoise of her own


She's the best I'm aware of. I'm sticking with her.
She does own a Sulcata...


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

One day, when Bertha's better, this is going to make a great book and film.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> She is outside this morning. Now that there is no fear of her pulling out her tube I'll leave her out longer.
> She is drinking on her own and I was already instructed not to feed her. Today she gets injection number 3.


Great if she's drinking alone!


----------



## Rutibegga

Gillian Moore said:


> Great if she's drinking alone!


You sure? I hear that's a sign that she might have a problem. ZING!


----------



## Robertchrisroph




----------



## ZEROPILOT

Today's injection didn't go very well. The needle bent in half. I'm not sure how much went in. I hit scaly underarm and not soft muscle with the needle.
Next injection is Wednesday.
I'll call the vet in the morning about replacing or not replacing the tube.


----------



## Gillian M

Tidgy's Dad said:


> One day, when Bertha's better, this is going to make a great book and film.


A great idea, Adam.


----------



## Rutibegga

ZEROPILOT said:


> Today's injection didn't go very well. The needle bent in half. I'm not sure how much went in. I hit scaly underarm and not soft muscle with the needle.
> Next injection is Wednesday.
> I'll call the vet in the morning about replacing or not replacing the tube.



It happens, even to the pros. Don't sweat it too much. 

C'mon, Bertha, feel better!


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Today's injection didn't go very well. The needle bent in half. I'm not sure how much went in. I hit scaly underarm and not soft muscle with the needle.
> Next injection is Wednesday.
> I'll call the vet in the morning about replacing or not replacing the tube.


Hi Ed. Extremely sorry to have read what took place with that injection. 

Wishes for Bertha to get well soon, and please keep up hope. Good luck to both of you.


----------



## jcaporaletti

Glad to hear she is doing better. If she is eating you will not need to place another tube. Sometimes in the older guys and gals vitamin A is helpful. Try offering a sweet potato, pop that sucker in the microwave to cook it and let it cool. I give my old beasts some every months or two.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

When she turns on and eats, she eats well.
When she turns off, like now, I can say that she won't eat ANYTHING.
Believe me. You won't think of a food item I haven't tried.
As long as she drinks. I'm not too worried about food. The X ray showed that she is still full and she weighed over a pound and a half more.
Hopefully after the antibiotics have been administered she will again eat. I've been told to NOT feed her until then.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> When she turns on and eats, she eats well.
> When she turns off, like now, I can say that she won't eat ANYTHING.
> Believe me. You won't think of a food item I haven't tried.
> As long as she drinks. I'm not too worried about food. The X ray showed that she is still full and she weighed over a pound and a half more.
> Hopefully after the antibiotics have been administered she will again eat. I've been told to NOT feed her until then.


Yeah Ed you're right, fluids are the most important at the moment.


----------



## Gillian M

Hello Ed. Tell me, how Bertha today? After having read your last post, I have a strong feeling she's slightly better. Right?

Appreciate an answer.


----------



## Lyn W

Any suggestions yet from the vet Ed?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She never got back to me.
She doesn't work every day.
Bertha is outside walking around. Today is an energy day for some reason.
She raises her but and wiggles her tail but she can't seem to poop. That could become yet another issue....
Also, I found a bandage that has stitches still attaching it to her neck and she reluctantly let me cut the stitches and remove them as well as the bandage. It looks good in that area. 
I'm planning on letting her stay outside now only coming in to soak on my utility room sink.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> She never got back to me.
> She doesn't work every day.
> Bertha is outside walking around. Today is an energy day for some reason.
> She raises her but and wiggles her tail but she can't seem to poop. That could become yet another issue....


Energy - good.
Other issue - oh dear.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> She never got back to me.
> She doesn't work every day.
> Bertha is outside walking around. Today is an energy day for some reason.
> She raises her but and wiggles her tail but she can't seem to poop. That could become yet another issue....
> Also, I found a bandage that has stitches still attaching it to her neck and she reluctantly let me cut the stitches and remove them as well as the bandage. It looks good in that area.
> I'm planning on letting her stay outside now only coming in to soak on my utility room sink.


An 'up' day!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

The energy is so strange. She will sit in one spot for hours and then take off at top speed....or not.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Lyn W said:


> Are you still able to soak her Ed or is it risky cos of her tube? That seemed to do the trick before.


No more tube. Clean water soaks will continue though she doesn't always drink.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> The energy is so strange. She will sit in one spot for hours and then take off at top speed....or not.


The spirit is still willing.
My Lola does that - stayed in one spot for over an hour on Saturday - I think he was in shock at seeing the sun. 
It's those solar powered rechargeable batteries!


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> No more tube. Clean water soaks will continue though she doesn't always drink.


Yes sorry about that Ed posted that before seeing the rest of yours. Thought you may have to keep the entry site dry.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

It's sounds mostly positive, I think.
i still have a heart attack every time I get an alert and see this thread's title.
Crikey. 
Wifey is also following this thread and sends her love.
Tidgy would too, if she could.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Tidgy's Dad said:


> It's sounds mostly positive, I think.
> i still have a heart attack every time I get an alert and see this thread's title.
> Crikey.
> Wifey is also following this thread and sends her love.
> Tidgy would too, if she could.


Our love back to your family....


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Lyn W said:


> Yes sorry about that Ed posted that before seeing the rest of yours. Thought you may have to keep the entry site dry.


It'll stay dry unless she is soaking. Her pen does not have a pool. Just a small water bowl.
However, the rain...


----------



## ZEROPILOT

If she'll let me, I'll try to dab some antibiotic ointment on the operation site.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> If she'll let me, I'll try to dab some antibiotic ointment on the operation site.


Lift her up so she goes into fear of heights/skydiving position and sticks everything out - you may be able to nab her then.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She DOES do that. Arms splayed out and jowls flapping in the wind.
Most of that any way.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> She DOES do that. Arms splayed out and jowls flapping in the wind.
> Most of that any way.


Lola too! He also does it if slightly tipped forward -think someone posted it as a tip for getting them to stick their heads out for beak trimming.


----------



## Pearly

ZEROPILOT said:


> She never got back to me.
> She doesn't work every day.
> Bertha is outside walking around. Today is an energy day for some reason.
> She raises her but and wiggles her tail but she can't seem to poop. That could become yet another issue....
> Also, I found a bandage that has stitches still attaching it to her neck and she reluctantly let me cut the stitches and remove them as well as the bandage. It looks good in that area.
> I'm planning on letting her stay outside now only coming in to soak on my utility room sink.


Hi there, I was just going through some care sheets on line and found probiotic that's apparently being used in reptiles. Didn't read consumer reviews or anything but it made me think of your Bertha. The product is called IFlora, it is z professional grade probiotic sold by Carolina Pet Supply. In description it says it helps with GI upset, constipation and re-establishing gut flora. May be worth looking into


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Pearly said:


> Hi there, I was just going through some care sheets on line and found probiotic that's apparently being used in reptiles. Didn't read consumer reviews or anything but it made me think of your Bertha. The product is called IFlora, it is z professional grade probiotic sold by Carolina Pet Supply. In description it says it helps with GI upset, constipation and re-establishing gut flora. May be worth looking into


Thanks. I'll check it out.
For every action I take there is a re action that requires another action....
Bertha spent the night out doors for the first time in a long while. Didn't eat. Didn't drink that I could tell and didn't poo. But she walked into her night house under her own power and looked alert.


----------



## Pearly

ZEROPILOT said:


> Thanks. I'll check it out.
> For every action I take there is a re action that requires another action....
> Bertha spent the night out doors for the first time in a long while. Didn't eat. Didn't drink that I could tell and didn't poo. But she walked into her night house under her own power and looked alert.


In human medicine less food=less poo. I'd imagine it woks similar in tortoises. I have yet to figure out if and how to include links here using my iphone as I never have the time to be on line other than in bed or waiting rooms That iFlora (probiotic I mentioned last night) was pretty pricey (around 29$ or something) but the info said that little would go a long way, so I'm guessing it's probably powder similar to our calcium supplements. Also another thought about Bertha's food intake (or lack thereof). In human medicine after tube feeding diet is typically reintroduced gradually. Starts with clear, then full liquids, then puree, soft and regular. After bad illness it at times takes weeks for normal appetite to return. I'm wondering on those days when she just has no interest in food if you could entice her with pureed stuff? May even try dumping a jar of baby food in her bowl and see what she does. Or, throw some of her favorite green in a food processor or if you don't have one then blender, pour some liquid to and blend the heck out of stuff. I have to do this for one of my new babies who was probably shipped to me way to early (very small, egg tooth still there and yolk sac scar on his plastron looked pretty fresh)


----------



## Pearly

One more thing, "action-reaction" is one of the basic laws in our Universe. Keep positive attitude, be hopeful and things may turn around. They usually do. Maybe not hearing back from the vet after Bertha pulled her tube out was a blessing?... I'm not sure if I'd go as far as tube feeding myself. Some animals (just like us, humans) are born less strong/healthy than others and some illnesses can hit very hard even the strongest. It sounds like you trust your vet and I'm sure you had that discussion with her. I'm just being devil's advocate here, saying that perhaps Bertha's pulling her tube out was a blessing?... Just thinking about "action-reaction", man! that is so true with invasive medical procedures! It's at times like opening Pandora's box! I so hope that Bertha is on a mend now.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Bertha received the tube as a last effort after not eating for 3 to 4 months and slipping into a weakened state and could no longer support herself on her legs.
I began feeding her a slurry of Pedialite and Oxbow Critical Care.
A few weeks after the tube was placed she nibbled food and then started eating a lot. She ate for eleven days. The x ray shows that the food is still in there. Tortoise digestion is very slow. On the eleventh day, she ate in the morning, Mazuri tortoise chow and an hour later appeared to have died. The next day I found that she had not.
More tests were done. This time a mildly elevated white blood count was found.
She had totally stopped eating and drinking.
I started the rounds of antibiotics.
A few days later she pulled out her tube, stitches and all.
Since then she has begun to walk a little but is still not eating at all. Not drinking very much and can't seem to poop, although she is trying to constantly.
That is the mini history to bring everyone up to speed and to help better understand the situation.
Two vets. A dozen tests. An operation and about $2,000 spent. I wont stop at a $30 probiotic if it is deemed necessary.
I don't plan on giving up until she does.


----------



## johnandjade

this WILL have a happy ending, all across the globe people are sending positive vibes  c'mon bertha TFO's in your corner


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Yes. And thank you everyone.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Bertha received the tube as a last effort after not eating for 3 to 4 months and slipping into a weakened state and could no longer support herself on her legs.
> I began feeding her a slurry of Pedialite and Oxbow Critical Care.
> A few weeks after the tube was placed she nibbled food and then started eating a lot. She ate for eleven days. The x ray shows that the food is still in there. Tortoise digestion is very slow. On the eleventh day, she ate in the morning, Mazuri tortoise chow and an hour later appeared to have died. The next day I found that she had not.
> More tests were done. This time a mildly elevated white blood count was found.
> She had totally stopped eating and drinking.
> I started the rounds of antibiotics.
> A few days later she pulled out her tube, stitches and all.
> Since then she has begun to walk a little but is still not eating at all. Not drinking very much and can't seem to poop, although she is trying to constantly.
> That is the mini history to bring everyone up to speed and to help better understand the situation.
> Two vets. A dozen tests. An operation and about $2,000 spent. I wont stop at a $30 probiotic if it is deemed necessary.
> I don't plan on giving up until she does.


Well ed, nobody can doubt your commitment to Bertha. $2000. Jeez. Hope you got the sex of this one right. Lol.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Anyfoot said:


> Well ed, nobody can doubt your commitment to Bertha. $2000. Jeez. Hope you got the sex of this one right. Lol.


She has mothered many babies. She spent over ten years as a breeder.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> She has mothered many babies. She spent over ten years as a breeder.


Hope she brings you many juveniles.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> She has mothered many babies. She spent over ten years as a breeder.


Do you know how old she is?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Anyfoot said:


> Do you know how old she is?


23 to 26 years old. I just say 25 to simplify.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

There is a thunderstorm going on at home and my wife just called to tell me that Bertha is out walking around in the rain. Typical.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> There is a thunderstorm going on at home and my wife just called to tell me that Bertha is out walking around in the rain. Typical.


I hope nothing bad comes of it, but sorry, Ed, that is actually a bit funny.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

For months I've been keeping her spotlessly clean. Now she's in the mud.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

I know, not great, but surely Mrs Ed will bring her in and clean her off?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Mrs. Ed (KELLY) will not. Ever.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> Mrs. Ed (KELLY) will not. Ever.


Oh, drat!
Thankfully, wifey would, bless her.


----------



## Lyn W

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Oh, drat!
> Thankfully, wifey would, bless her.


Naughty torty!
Wish I could pop over to help.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Our summer storms are pretty violent but short lived.
I'm sure she'll be done water skiing by the time I get home. 
I leave soon.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Lyn W said:


> Naughty torty!
> Wish I could pop over to help.


Maybe you wouldn't want to.
I actually have SEVEN of them out there in the mud!


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Maybe you wouldn't want to.
> I actually have SEVEN of them out there in the mud!


I'd bring my wellies!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Lyn W said:


> I'd bring my wellies!


What are wellies, Lyn?


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> What are wellies, Lyn?


Wellington boots - essential rubber waterproof footwear in wet Wales!
Not sure what you would call them.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Our summer storms are pretty violent but short lived.
> I'm sure she'll be done water skiing by the time I get home.
> I leave soon.


Nothing a good warm up won't help I expect.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She's fine. She refused to sit for a soak. She also refused to eat or drink.
But she's fine.
Trying to sound convincing


----------



## Pearly

ZEROPILOT said:


> Bertha received the tube as a last effort after not eating for 3 to 4 months and slipping into a weakened state and could no longer support herself on her legs.
> I began feeding her a slurry of Pedialite and Oxbow Critical Care.
> A few weeks after the tube was placed she nibbled food and then started eating a lot. She ate for eleven days. The x ray shows that the food is still in there. Tortoise digestion is very slow. On the eleventh day, she ate in the morning, Mazuri tortoise chow and an hour later appeared to have died. The next day I found that she had not.
> More tests were done. This time a mildly elevated white blood count was found.
> She had totally stopped eating and drinking.
> I started the rounds of antibiotics.
> A few days later she pulled out her tube, stitches and all.
> Since then she has begun to walk a little but is still not eating at all. Not drinking very much and can't seem to poop, although she is trying to constantly.
> That is the mini history to bring everyone up to speed and to help better understand the situation.
> Two vets. A dozen tests. An operation and about $2,000 spent. I wont stop at a $30 probiotic if it is deemed necessary.
> I don't plan on giving up until she does.


You don't need vet's ok to use probiotic. Many human doctors to this day don't think to tell patients to take them with and after antibiotics. Let the doc know you are giving it to her. Thank you for the background. And I'm so sorry you and Bertha have to go through such ordeal. Try anything/everything. I humans with severe illness processing (chewing) and swallowing food becomes at times very difficult because aside from lack of appetite eating is can be "work" that requires energy and stamina, good oxygenation, saliva production etc. In such cases we modify diet consistency to make eating as easy as possible just to get people over the hump and pack them with nutrition. Sometimes we use appetite stimulants (very expensive medications, I'm not sure if they are used in vet. medicine), sometimes tube feeds and sometimes parenteral (through IV). Sounds like you are "fully vested" in helping Bertha, and I hope you don't mind my bombarding you with ideas and thoughts. I was just thinking... The human appetite stimulant meds (some) are derivatives of cannbis... Which is a plant... Wiuld it be worthwhile to feed Bertha a little... fresh or dry leaves? I heard that somewhere in Colorado there is a company that's come up with a new strain that is only working on appetite (they also use it for seizures) and people don't get stoned from it. Again, I'm probably way out there with this... but with brainstorming often good ideas are born. Mine maybe crazy but thought provoking to some other people... Take care


----------



## Kenno

ZEROPILOT said:


> There is a thunderstorm going on at home and my wife just called to tell me that Bertha is out walking around in the rain. Typical.


My torts love to drink rain water! Hopefully Bertha does too.


----------



## Angel Carrion

Kenno said:


> My torts love to drink rain water! Hopefully Bertha does too.


Certainly seems to liven them up. Looks like they're playing in the puddles from the storms, sometimes


----------



## RockChalk

Lyn W said:


> Wellington boots - essential rubber waterproof footwear in wet Wales!
> Not sure what you would call them.


We call them rain boots, but the ladies over here who like shoes normally know Wellies. It's kind of how all bandages are called Band-Aids even when they're not.


----------



## Lyn W

RockChalk said:


> We call them rain boots, but the ladies over here who like shoes normally know Wellies. It's kind of how all bandages are called Band-Aids even when they're not.


Thanks very much for that - wasn't sure if it might be gum boots or if that was another Brit expression.


----------



## Pearly

Hi there! How's Bertha doing today?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Pearly said:


> Hi there! How's Bertha doing today?


She is unusual active but not eating. She may be drinking because I've placed a small pool into her enclosure.
Last night's antibiotic injection went smoothly.


----------



## Pearly

ZEROPILOT said:


> She is unusual active but not eating. She may be drinking because I've placed a small pool into her enclosure.
> Last night's antibiotic injection went smoothly.


That's great! Have you had a chance to look into the probiotic? I think we'll get a bottle at one point to just slip some into ours now and then, as a little extra boost. I read your post where you said she was without food for several weeks. I'd be freaking out, but then realize her metabolism is not like warmblooded critters...


----------



## ZEROPILOT

No. Not yet


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I haven't heard back from the vet. 
Now Bertha seems to be in distress and spends a good part of the day trying to poo. She can't.
It looks like another trip is coming up.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Oh!
Goodness, goodness, goodness!
Lots of bad today.


----------



## Angel Carrion

Oh my. I'm assuming you're giving her loooooong soaks in an attempt to help her. Hopefully it works.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She has a pool in her pen now.
She is sprawled out in it for quite a while each day.
Today she ate a postage stamp sized piece of Romaine.


----------



## Lyn W

Lola doesn't eat well when she's constipated
Aloe vera and cucumber grated to a mush works well and quite quickly for her,
But getting it in to Bertha is the problem.
What about putting it in a warm soak or trying a warm baby food carrot bath?
You've probably tried all this I expect but can't think of anything else.
Poor girl!


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> She has a pool in her pen now.
> She is sprawled out in it for quite a while each day.
> Today she ate a postage stamp sized piece of Romaine.


Hi ed. Can you get any any squash or pumpkin. If she would eat it, should loosen her up a bit. That said what as she eaten in the last week. If nothing goes in, nothing comes out.


----------



## Pearly

Goodness! I hope she's feeling better! I can't imagine anything worst than having to helplessly watch an animal or child in distress.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> She never got back to me.
> She doesn't work every day.
> Bertha is outside walking around. Today is an energy day for some reason.
> She raises her but and wiggles her tail but she can't seem to poop. That could become yet another issue....
> Also, I found a bandage that has stitches still attaching it to her neck and she reluctantly let me cut the stitches and remove them as well as the bandage. It looks good in that area.
> I'm planning on letting her stay outside now only coming in to soak on my utility room sink.


Bertha does sound better if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Mrs. Ed (KELLY) will not. Ever.


Wow!!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Anyfoot said:


> Hi ed. Can you get any any squash or pumpkin. If she would eat it, should loosen her up a bit. That said what as she eaten in the last week. If nothing goes in, nothing comes out.


The last xray showed that she was full. (Of food) It also showed no eggs but she has had her rear up in the air and her tail wiggling. What they do when the poop.
But nothing comes out.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

No. No better. Thanks.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She won't eat cucumber.
Right now she isn't eating at all. Maybe a tiny piece of Romaine but I can't be sure.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> The last xray showed that she was full. (Of food) It also showed no eggs but she has had her rear up in the air and her tail wiggling. What they do when the poop.
> But nothing comes out.


Think its just a matter of time. All you can do is keep giving her Luke warm baths.


----------



## Anyfoot

Anyfoot said:


> Think its just a matter of time. All you can do is keep giving her Luke warm baths.


Until she poops I meant.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Wonder of wonders...Her Majesty just ate two piles of Romain/Rabbi with some sliced cucumber hidden in it. I've only been offering the whitish parts of Romaine because it has more liquid.
I just made an appointment for Monday at 9:30 for the no pooping issue.
I don't know if there is a shot or a tortoise enema...etc.
Today she gets another antibiotic shot. Then only two more to go.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Wonder of wonders...Her Majesty just ate two piles of Romain/Rabbi with some sliced cucumber hidden in it. I've only been offering the whitish parts of Romaine because it has more liquid.
> I just made an appointment for Monday at 9:30 for the no pooping issue.
> I don't know if there is a shot or a tortoise enema...etc.
> Today she gets another antibiotic shot. Then only two more to go.


Wonderful!


----------



## tortadise

ZEROPILOT said:


> Wonder of wonders...Her Majesty just ate two piles of Romain/Rabbi with some sliced cucumber hidden in it. I've only been offering the whitish parts of Romaine because it has more liquid.
> I just made an appointment for Monday at 9:30 for the no pooping issue.
> I don't know if there is a shot or a tortoise enema...etc.
> Today she gets another antibiotic shot. Then only two more to go.


Cloaca flush. I seriously would not feed anything I'd she has not defecated in a while. Sepsis can kill a tortoise. She perhaps has a backed up colon. Adding more food to the clog is just going to make it worse. Liquids and hydration is good. Need to get her to extremist. I'd recommend the vet doing this is you haven't done it before.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

tortadise said:


> Cloaca flush. I seriously would not feed anything I'd she has not defecated in a while. Sepsis can kill a tortoise. She perhaps has a backed up colon. Adding more food to the clog is just going to make it worse. Liquids and hydration is good. Need to get her to extremist. I'd recommend the vet doing this is you haven't done it before.


Ok. I won't offer any more food until I see the vet.
The eleven days that she ate, she would I only eat Mazuri and dog food. Now it's caused constipation.
The antibiotic shot went well.


----------



## Jodie

What a difficult time for you and this poor girl. Really appreciate the updates and information from this thread. Hoping for the best for her.


----------



## Pearly

Tortadise is correct in being concerned about intestinal obstruction, but I'd think this would show on the xray. Normally intestinal contents are pretty well visible on simple films. It sounds like there is "food" in Bertha's GI track, which to me sounds like at the upper gut level, which would explain why she's not eating. She's full! And why is she full? Not digesting? Normal GI tract should be in peristaltic motion, moving contents down and out while digesting and absorbing takes place along the way. She's not eating and not pooping... Is she obstructed? This should be fairly easy to diagnose. If her upper gut is full, enema won't help. It's only good for the end of the gut. Again, I'd think that your Vet would have seen it on the xray... What does she say about all this? As for sepsis... Yes, it is life threatening in animals and humans alike, but Bertha is being treated with antibiotic which should address infection issue. I'd like to be a fly on the wall when they do Bertha's diagnostics...


----------



## ZEROPILOT

It all seems pretty hit and miss to me. Though I give my vet the utmost trust, I still feel that more can be done.
The xray showed food and no obstruction. The poo is right there. The last time she pooped, weeks ago, I had to help her pass it (with a stick) It was like very thick and clingy wet cement.
it's right there. Just too solid. IMO. She spends a lot of time with her rear end up apparently pushing to no avail.
I don't know if there will be even more xrays tomorrow or not.
I'll post after the vet visit.
This morning I offered some cactus pad. So far she didn't eat any. My other tortoises get crazy diarrhea when they eat that.


----------



## meech008

ZEROPILOT said:


> It all seems pretty hit and miss to me. Though I give my vet the utmost trust, I still feel that more can be done.
> The xray showed food and no obstruction. The poo is right there. The last time she pooped, weeks ago, I had to help her pass it (with a stick) It was like very thick and clingy wet cement.
> it's right there. Just too solid. IMO. She spends a lot of time with her rear end up apparently pushing to no avail.
> I don't know if there will be even more xrays tomorrow or not.
> I'll post after the vet visit.
> This morning I offered some cactus pad. So far she didn't eat any. My other tortoises get crazy diarrhea when they eat that.


I wonder if certain foods can make them constipated like humans. Like maybe the critical care. No assumption because I have no experience in that type of thing. Just curious


----------



## Angel Carrion

Wait critical care makes them constipated?


----------



## Merrick

I hope she eats some cactus also is their a stole looser for tortoises in the dorm of an injection


----------



## meech008

Angel Carrion said:


> Wait critical care makes them constipated?


No, I have no idea if it does or not. That was my question. It would be interesting to learn


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I think it must. It's powdered hay mostly.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Though the poor girl seems to crash from one crisis to another, it seems to me the general direction is forwards.
So i'm staying optimistic.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Thanks, Adam.
At some point I AM going to have to give up.
I just don't know when I'll reach that point.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Good luck with the vet visit in the morning.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Good luck with the vet visit in the morning.


THANK$


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Not a typo


----------



## ShannonC

Oh boy!! I really hope things go well!! I can't imagine the stress it is causing both of you!! You are amazing, taking care of her like you have!! I hope that the general direction continues to be UP!! You guys deserve a break!! And hopefully Bertha will go on to live a long, healthy, happy life after all this!! Sending good vibes and well wishes your way!!


----------



## Pearly

ZEROPILOT said:


> It all seems pretty hit and miss to me. Though I give my vet the utmost trust, I still feel that more can be done.
> The xray showed food and no obstruction. The poo is right there. The last time she pooped, weeks ago, I had to help her pass it (with a stick) It was like very thick and clingy wet cement.
> it's right there. Just too solid. IMO. She spends a lot of time with her rear end up apparently pushing to no avail.
> I don't know if there will be even more xrays tomorrow or not.
> I'll post after the vet visit.
> This morning I offered some cactus pad. So far she didn't eat any. My other tortoises get crazy diarrhea when they eat that.


Crap! I had it all typed up and got interrupted by the kids, and it's gone! Anyway, I was just thinking about that constipation... That "it's right there"... How about trying to help her expel it by stimulating her butt with... Maybe a q-tip saturated with additive free lubricant? Think plain K-Y would do. I know it may sound disgusting to some, but she sounds pretty miserable with trying to go and not being able to. If it sounds too out there just disregard it. Hope the vet visit today goes well.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She's being X rayed as I type.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Fingers crossed


----------



## Merrick

Hope everything comes out okay


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Right now she's getting an enema. The xrays showed no blockage!
I'm also getting a prescription for some liquid to place on the food.
I'll have to report back on the name if it.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Merrick said:


> Hope everything comes out okay


Literally!


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> Literally!


ha de ha.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Sedation was required for the enema. I have to go back and pick her up in four hours and I've been told to bring a box and lots of towels.
Eating, walking and pooping....maybe this will be it once the antibiotics have also run their course.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> Sedation was required for the enema. I have to go back and pick her up in four hours and I've been told to bring a box and lots of towels.
> Eating, walking and pooping....maybe this will be it once the antibiotics have also run their course.


Please, please, please let it be it.
Toes crossed as well now.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

What has been missed?
I mean she has gotten the Royal treatment.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> What has been missed?
> I mean she has gotten the Royal treatment.


Hopefully, nothing missed.
There was a Queen Bertha of Kent and another one in The Netherlands.
It's happened before.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I'll officially change her name from big Bertha to Queen Bertha then.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Hopefully she'll use the "THRONE" now.


----------



## Merrick

May the queen live long and prosper


----------



## ZEROPILOT

The liquid is called "lactalose".
It might be spelled differently.
I picked her up and she is limp and drooling. They gave her an enema and lactalose. She hasn't pooped. She isn't really even awake.
I placed her inside her indoors tote for some rest and I won't bother her until tomorrow.
Hopefully she'll poo and then eat something that I can put lactalose on. Otherwise I must somehow pry her mouth open.
She also gets her second to last antibiotic injection. I don't want to ad extra stress. It's quite a lot already.


----------



## Merrick

I would put into some shade so that the light dosen't bother her but still keep her warm


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Her tote is in my enclosed sun room.
Nothing in there but warmth and shade.
She is still VERY groggy!


----------



## Merrick

ZEROPILOT said:


> Her tote is in my enclosed sun room.
> Nothing in there but warmth and shade.
> She is still VERY groggy!


Good hope she feels better


----------



## Jodie

This poor tortoise. And poor keeper. Bless you both.


----------



## Pearly

Merrick said:


> Good hope she feels better


Wow! LACTULOSE should work. It is nasty, sticky very sweet syrup that we use a lot in human medicine (commonly used in people with liver failure to keep amonia levels down). If she likes the sweet taste in her fruits you should be able to get her to gobble it with her food. Enemas usually work when the poo is "right there", but some times they just don't and it takes working from both ends to get things going. I wish the Queen good and peaceful rest and once awake from her sedation induced slumber, I hope she gets to make the best poo this world has ever seen


----------



## Angel Carrion

Hopefully that lactulose stuff works. When it does, be ready for the never ending poop day.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I'm uncertain if all is actually well with her.
Five Hours After I Picked Her Up And She's Still Limp And Still drooling.
She's mostly unresponsive.
I hope that something didn't go wrong.


----------



## Angel Carrion

Is your vet still open? I would suggest calling and asking the vet if that's normal/okay?


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

This is never ending, isn't it?
I know how stressful this is for me, so I can't imagine how you must feel, Ed.
Hang on in there.
Both of you.


----------



## leigti

Tidgy's Dad said:


> This is never ending, isn't it?
> I know how stressful this is for me, so I can't imagine how you must feel, Ed.
> Hang on in there.
> Both of you.


I agree. It is an emotional roller coaster for me just to read this I can't imagine going through it.


----------



## ShannonC

Same here!! I have been on edge about all this.....can't imagine how it feels going through it!!


----------



## Pearly

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'm uncertain if all is actually well with her.
> Five Hours After I Picked Her Up And She's Still Limp And Still drooling.
> She's mostly unresponsive.
> I hope that something didn't go wrong.


Is she able to metabolize whatever they gave her? Some drugs have pretty long half-life, do you know what they gave her and how much?


----------



## Amanda81

ZEROPILOT said:


> The liquid is called "lactalose".
> It might be spelled differently.
> I picked her up and she is limp and drooling. They gave her an enema and lactalose. She hasn't pooped. She isn't really even awake.
> I placed her inside her indoors tote for some rest and I won't bother her until tomorrow.
> Hopefully she'll poo and then eat something that I can put lactalose on. Otherwise I must somehow pry her mouth open.
> She also gets her second to last antibiotic injection. I don't want to ad extra stress. It's quite a lot already.


If this works the same in tortoises as it does humans she should clean out rather well. I'm a nurse and work with the elderly, many of my patients are on this, usually to flush high ammonia levels, like 4 doses a day is the norm but my patients complain of diaherra somedays and will skip a dose here and there.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'm uncertain if all is actually well with her.
> Five Hours After I Picked Her Up And She's Still Limp And Still drooling.
> She's mostly unresponsive.
> I hope that something didn't go wrong.



So do I Ed ,
Hopefully not
See what the vet says today if no change.
,


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I didn't get my usual itemized bill, so I don't know what the sedative was. I only know that they always have to give her more than normal because she is hard to sedate.
This morning I touched her front leg and she quickly pulled it inside. She is also 180 degrees from were she was last night, facing west.
I placed her back outside into her night house. I had to be quiet and not wake up Kelly.
She is out of the sedation and when I get home from work, I'll try to feed her some food with the laxative on it....And look for poop. There is still none.
This is also antibiotic shot day.....


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> I didn't get my usual itemized bill, so I don't know what the sedative was. I only know that they always have to give her more than normal because she is hard to sedate.
> This morning I touched her front leg and she quickly pulled it inside. She is also 180 degrees from were she was last night, facing west.
> I placed her back outside into her night house. I had to be quiet and not wake up Kelly.
> She is out of the sedation and when I get home from work, I'll try to feed her some food with the laxative on it....And look for poop. There is still none.
> This is also antibiotic shot day.....


Good luck.
An important day for Queen Bertha, I feel.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> I didn't get my usual itemized bill, so I don't know what the sedative was. I only know that they always have to give her more than normal because she is hard to sedate.
> This morning I touched her front leg and she quickly pulled it inside. She is also 180 degrees from were she was last night, facing west.
> I placed her back outside into her night house. I had to be quiet and not wake up Kelly.
> She is out of the sedation and when I get home from work, I'll try to feed her some food with the laxative on it....And look for poop. There is still none.
> This is also antibiotic shot day.....


Its good news she's out of sedation Ed, now just go to wait for the magic potion to work.
Does the vet think she'll be ok with her antib's so soon after sedation and the other stuff?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Yes.
She is very tough.(Bertha)
Maybe this is a case of "what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."


----------



## Lyn W

She is a tough old tort with everything she's been through!
Fingers crossed for her getting over another hurdle.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Lyn W said:


> She is a tough old tort with everything she's been through!
> Fingers crossed for her getting over another hurdle.


She usually gets over the first hurdle then crashes through the next three. Then is found by the fifth hurdle upside down.
Yes. She is tough.


----------



## Pearly

Good morning! I so hope you have found Bertha more awake this morning


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Pearly said:


> Good morning! I so hope you have found Bertha more awake this morning


Yes. She was responsive.
I leave for work at 3:45am. So it was very dark. Even in my lighted patio area where her outdoors pen is.
I wanted to keep her over night inside because she would have been vulnerable to a passing rat, etc.


----------



## Pearly

That's a great news! Hopefully Lactulose has worked as well, though (sorry for you) you may have a big mess to clean up


----------



## Angel Carrion

Pearly said:


> That's a great news! Hopefully Lactulose has worked as well, though (sorry for you) you may have a big mess to clean up


Yup. Huuuuuuuge mess. Get ready for the War of the Roses in her intestines.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

My wife texted me. She went home to walk the dog and saw Bertha out of her house and venturing out into the grass. She saw no poop still.


----------



## johnandjade

ZEROPILOT said:


> My wife texted me. She went home to walk the dog and saw Bertha out of her house and venturing out into the grass. She saw no poop still.




hopefully it'll help move things along


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> My wife texted me. She went home to walk the dog and saw Bertha out of her house and venturing out into the grass. She saw no poop still.


You never know. There could be some poop and your wife just had a " mans look". Lol. Sounding better ed.


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## johnandjade

i can honestly say this is the first time in my life i've prayed for poo!


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## ZEROPILOT

johnandjade said:


> i can honestly say this is the first time in my life i've prayed for poo!


She pooped a month or so ago. Before that it was about three months.


----------



## johnandjade

ZEROPILOT said:


> She pooped a month or so ago. Before that it was about three months.




poor queen b  ... i'll send some of the girlfriends dodggy cooking, never fails for me! hopping the movement will help free things up


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## ZEROPILOT

I hope she is a little peppier. She gets another needle tonight.


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## johnandjade

bit of luck anyfoot is right and the 'royal stamp' has just been missed.


----------



## DawnH

Oh man. I have been gone and saw this headline and just about freaked out! Glad to hear she is still with us and fighting like crazy!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Yes Dawn. A lot has happened. But we're right about back at the beginning.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She pooped.
Not much but it is very loose and I'm sure there will be more as soon as she has the strength to push.


----------



## Merrick

ZEROPILOT said:


> She pooped.
> Not much but it is very loose and I'm sure there will be more as soon as she has the strength to push.


Yes exactly what we were waiting for!! hope that makes her feel better


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She is not eating today but she clearly is not very happy and in about an hour I've got to jab her with her antibiotic shot.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

When I bought her in and gave her her injection, I realized that the "POOP" is more or less just some nasty water pouring out of her rear. When I lifted her up, it poured out.
I washed her and let her soak in the utility room sink. (Changing the water several times.)
She is trying to poo again, tail up in the air, but nothing is really going on.


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## Lyn W

Poor girl! Hopefully this is just a precursor of things to come.


----------



## Pearly

ZEROPILOT said:


> When I bought her in and gave her her injection, I realized that the "POOP" is more or less just some nasty water pouring out of her rear. When I lifted her up, it poured out.
> I washed her and let her soak in the utility room sink. (Changing the water several times.)
> She is trying to poo again, tail up in the air, but nothing is really going on.


Sounds like her tummy is cramping. Lactulose tends to give cramps. If she needs to be on laxative for a while I'd check with the vet about switching to Miralax which is gentle and doesn't give stomach cramps. I'm just not sure if/how you'd give it. It's a powder that you mix with some liquid and drink. I know you said you were going to stay committed to Bertha for as long as she kept fighting, and that you liked the vet, but... Do you have any way to get a second opinion? It just seems strange that without any other apparent cause (major illness, metabolic or structural issue, overwhelming infection, or malignancy... etc) this poor thing is still miserable. Are you confident in the skill level of your vet? Or... Is she missing something? What is exactly her differential diagnosis and treatment plan? What's her prognosis? I'm sure you have been asking those questions all along but you are also the caregiver of the sick animal which is very draining and can be scary and overwhelming. I imagine you are having to fork out some serious dollars with each vet visit. Sorry for being devil's advocate and throwing my human medicine stuff in here. I just wish I could help somehow. This must be very frustrating for you


----------



## ZEROPILOT

It does feel as though my vet has a hit and miss approach, but she is still the best one I have found.
I O.K.ed any and every type of test to be done and there is still no diagnosis. Antibiotics for an infection not found, etc.
There IS the troubling matter of what was/is her original illness?
One day she stopped eating and didn't eat for over three months....She got a feeding tube and then began eating on her own again. Then had a major issue and almost died? What was that? Now she is crawling back to the point that she was originally at.....Certainly no better and nothing has ever been found to be wrong. No X ray. No blood test. No fecal test. No test has found anything. She has had test after test after test. Nothing is abnormal.
Maybe I do need another vet. I've used one in Marathon three hours to the south and in West Palm an hour north. This one is only 30 minutes away. Most "exotics" are clearly guessing when it comes to tortoises. At least this vet HAS a tortoise!
Yes, at this point, I've spent several thousand dollars on her care. She is not better at all. It seems like we should be a little bit further along than this.
Thanks for letting me vent.


----------



## Angel Carrion

Please, vent away. It's completely understandable. I want to yell about the health issues two of my rescues are having as well, it's okay. We all need that release sometimes.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

My original thought.... One that still hasn't been disproven, is that she may be dying of old age.
Her history could only be traced back about 22-25 years. She could be much older.


----------



## Angel Carrion

ZEROPILOT said:


> My original thought.... One that still hasn't been disproven, is that she may be dying of old age.
> Her history could only be traced back about 22-25 years. She could be much older.


I was under the impression that reptiles don't actually "die from old age" but always from an illness/disease/deformity/traumatic event/etc? Supposedly they could live forever if raised 100% correctly and with no medical issues? At least that's what I heard, I could very well be wrong.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Angel Carrion said:


> I was under the impression that reptiles don't actually "die from old age" but always from an illness/disease/deformity/traumatic event/etc? Supposedly they could live forever if raised 100% correctly and with no medical issues? At least that's what I heard, I could very well be wrong.


No. Even tortoises don't last forever and a Redfoot life span is 55-65 years when all of their needs are met. I've read of them living for just over 40 years, also.


----------



## Merrick

Angel Carrion said:


> I was under the impression that reptiles don't actually "die from old age" but always from an illness/disease/deformity/traumatic event/etc? Supposedly they could live forever if raised 100% correctly and with no medical issues? At least that's what I heard, I could very well be wrong.


You are thinking of crustaceans like lobsters they can live near forever but most of the time are eaten


----------



## Jodie

I have heard that kind of statement made as well. It doesn't really work for me though. Humans don't die of old age either. The heart fails, the immune system fails.... Bodies wear out, it's just nature.
Sure hope that's not the case here. I really want her to recover for you, and have many happy years.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> No. Even tortoises don't last forever and a Redfoot life span is 55-65 years when all of their needs are met. I've read of them living for just over 40 years, also.


Is the coarse of antibiotics finished.


----------



## Tom

Angel Carrion said:


> I was under the impression that reptiles don't actually "die from old age" but always from an illness/disease/deformity/traumatic event/etc? Supposedly they could live forever if raised 100% correctly and with no medical issues? At least that's what I heard, I could very well be wrong.



I read an article that was proposing the idea that turtles and tortoises live until something kills them, but I've never heard this about any other type of reptile. There have been turtles and tortoises on record living more than 180 years. I heard of one tortoise that was recorded as 280+ years old and it was already an adult when that count started.

I don't think anyone knows what the lifespan of our chelonians really is. Captive breeding is a relatively new thing and we just don't have ages on so many of the older ones. Couple that with the fact that our understanding of captive chelonian husbandry is still in its infancy, and who knows when this question will ever be definitively answered.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Anyfoot said:


> Is the coarse of antibiotics finished.


Finishes this Friday


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Tom said:


> I read an article that was proposing the idea that turtles and tortoises live until something kills them, but I've never heard this about any other type of reptile. There have been turtles and tortoises on record living more than 180 years. I heard of one tortoise that was recorded as 280+ years old and it was already an adult when that count started.
> 
> I don't think anyone knows what the lifespan of our chelonians really is. Captive breeding is a relatively new thing and we just don't have ages on so many of the older ones. Couple that with the fact that our understanding of captive chelonian husbandry is still in its infancy, and who knows when this question will ever be definitively answered.


No kidding?
I've never heard of such a thing.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She didn't eat today either, but I had to shovel out the whole pen and replace the mulch in the exercise area and the hay in her bedding area.
She also required TWO baths.
The pooping has begun.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> She didn't eat today either, but I had to shovel out the whole pen and replace the mulch in the exercise area and the hay in her bedding area.
> She also required TWO baths.
> The pooping has begun.


Poop Poop Horray!!!
Hopefully this will help her appetite pick up.
Good news Ed!


----------



## Merrick

Jodie said:


> I have heard that kind of statement made as well. It doesn't really work for me though. Humans don't die of old age either. The heart fails, the immune system fails.... Bodies wear out, it's just nature.
> Sure hope that's not the case here. I really want her to recover for you, and have many happy years.


Old age is our chromosomes unraveling after decades of cell splitting. This causes our bodies to fail because we can not produce new cells to manage them.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Hooorrrraaaaaayyyyyyyy for poooooooohhh!!!!! 
Good girl, Queen Bertha.


----------



## keepergale

ZEROPILOT said:


> She didn't eat today either, but I had to shovel out the whole pen and replace the mulch in the exercise area and the hay in her bedding area.
> She also required TWO baths.
> The pooping has begun.


Inquiring minds want to know. Has her stool improved from watery to a consistency that would suggest she was blocked up?


----------



## Dylanruenz

This is one of the best topics on this site. Thank you for keeping us informed


----------



## ZEROPILOT

keepergale said:


> Inquiring minds want to know. Has her stool improved from watery to a consistency that would suggest she was blocked up?


It looks like Mazuri. Different color and smell. It pretty much looks like it did going in her. I don't think it caused her constipation. I think she has a digestive problem.......But I'm no vet.


----------



## ShannonC

ZEROPILOT said:


> It looks like Mazuri. Different color and smell. It pretty much looks like it did going in her. I don't think it caused her constipation. I think she has a digestive problem.......But I'm no vet.




A lot of times, close observation, common sense and that "gut feeling" are spot on!! I have learned to trust my gut feelings! My biggest question on this one would be if the digestive issues are primary or secondary, given all that she has been through.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> It looks like Mazuri. Different color and smell. It pretty much looks like it did going in her. I don't think it caused her constipation. I think she has a digestive problem.......But I'm no vet. BBC


I agree with you ed. She has a digestive problem. This is why I asked about coccidia in your other thread. All the drugs and forcefeeding are making her system work. Time will come for her to go it alone after antibiotics are done. I'm always optimistic, so hope it has kickstarts her system up.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Would my antibiotics maybe kill a gut borne bug?
I'm hoping that it was a miracle cure.
I'm hoping that the shot gun method did what ever was needed.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She was out of her house and standing in the middle of her pen this morning at 3:30 am


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Would my antibiotics maybe kill a gut borne bug?
> I'm hoping that it was a miracle cure.
> I'm hoping that the shot gun method did what ever was needed.


I'm hoping for the same.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She usually climbs into her pond in the afternoon. I asked my wife to check it later and drop the hose in and flush it out if she sees poop.
She's not like pooping here and there, it's more like a trickle that is everywhere.
Pretty nasty and hard to keep clean. Yesterday was a little better. A little firmer.
The photo is Bertha the day she came home to me. The next day I first noticed that she wasn't eating.
It's been a year maybe.


----------



## Pearly

ZEROPILOT said:


> It does feel as though my vet has a hit and miss approach, but she is still the best one I have found.
> I O.K.ed any and every type of test to be done and there is still no diagnosis. Antibiotics for an infection not found, etc.
> There IS the troubling matter of what was/is her original illness?
> One day she stopped eating and didn't eat for over three months....She got a feeding tube and then began eating on her own again. Then had a major issue and almost died? What was that? Now she is crawling back to the point that she was originally at.....Certainly no better and nothing has ever been found to be wrong. No X ray. No blood test. No fecal test. No test has found anything. She has had test after test after test. Nothing is abnormal.
> Maybe I do need another vet. I've used one in Marathon three hours to the south and in West Palm an hour north. This one is only 30 minutes away. Most "exotics" are clearly guessing when it comes to tortoises. At least this vet HAS a tortoise!
> Yes, at this point, I've spent several thousand dollars on her care. She is not better at all. It seems like we should be a little bit further along than this.
> Thanks for letting me vent.


I totally sympathize with you! Unless tests other than ones mentioned in this thread have been done, I have to say that plain xray, blood/stool analysis is very basic. There is a very wide array of imaging studies available but with the higher level of sophistication comes the increased cost. I think the answer is somewhere there but one needs to ask himself a question "how far do I want to go with this?" Now, if your gut tells you that Bertha is hiding something that's treatable and your confidence in your vet has weakened, get another vet. How about finding veterinary medicine school in your area and go there? Or, Miami ZOO, I'm sure they have reptile vets there. Or, if you look at Bertha and your heart breaks by asking yourself "am I doing the right thing by putting her through all this?" ... maybe it's time to finish the antibiotic, keep offering good food and soaks, add probiotic and just love her! And hope for the best while preparing for the worst. It would be very helpful to have that differential diagnosis and prognosis but it sounds like the vet is pretty much clueless there. We often face this dilemma in human medicine as well and there are times when people who are faced with life altering illness choose palliative care and that is ok, too. All living things die at some point. Act of dying is a part of our existence in this Universe just like an act of birth. I just want to let you know that I truly admire your commitment to Bertha and I'm right there with you (in heart) whatever happens next. P.s. West Palm Beach has a ZOO, I wonder if they may have a good reptile vet. I think at this point I wouldn't waste time/money going to private vet clinics unless you know for sure the vet is VERY experienced with torts. I'd go with either teaching facility or a ZOO. Hang in there, and please, "vent" any time


----------



## Pearly

ZEROPILOT said:


> Would my antibiotics maybe kill a gut borne bug?
> I'm hoping that it was a miracle cure.
> I'm hoping that the shot gun method did what ever was needed.


Depending on a "bug". Stool culture would determine presence or overgrowth of bacteria and sensitivity to antibiotics. I think you did mention that stool was tested? Am I correct on it?


----------



## Pearly

Pearly said:


> Depending on a "bug". Stool culture would determine presence or overgrowth of bacteria and sensitivity to antibiotics. I think you did mention that stool was tested? Am I correct on it?


Also on stool test, there a couple of basic most commonly done stool tests: blood occult (check for presence of blood either fresh or digested), ova and parasites (checking for intestinal parasites), WBC's (white blood cells) and c&s (culture and sensitivity which determines presence/overgrowth of bacteria and matches this organism with appropriate antibiotic). Is it what has been done on Bertha?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I've had so many tests done. I requested "Any and all" that was available.
I only recall two stool tests as there has been so little of it to actually test.


----------



## Pearly

It doesn't take that much poo to run all that testing. If you gave the vet "card blanche" to test for everything I'd assume she'd done the ones I had mentioned before.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I'm pretty sure that she has. I have a stack of itemized bills I will go through. The problem is I didn't always get an itemized bill. Sometimes just a receipt.
She had very young and very unprofessional kids manning the counter.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

The main thing was and still is...Even if she dies or I have to have her put down....IS SHE CONTAGIOUS?
I don't want this to happen six more times.
My yard isn't that huge and It's hard to keep everything sterile and separate.


----------



## Angel Carrion

That is a major concern. Is there any way to try and 'catch' the runny poo water so as to prevent it from seeping into the soil and working its way to your other enclosures? If this is contagious and can be passed my bodily waste/fluids, runny poo water is a bad bad thing if it spreads into the soil


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Angel Carrion said:


> That is a major concern. Is there any way to try and 'catch' the runny poo water so as to prevent it from seeping into the soil and working its way to your other enclosures? If this is contagious and can be passed my bodily waste/fluids, runny poo water is a bad bad thing if it spreads into the soil


It would take a small Tsunami to wash it to the other pens. I'm more worried about garden tools and tracking poo on my shoes back and forth..
The one thing that eases my mind about THAT is that her sister, who lived with her for at least eight years and was with her when I got them together is still fine. She is as active as a little mule......And so are the other four living with her.
So it stands to reason that if it was/is a virus and the others were exposed to it, but didn't succumb, That maybe Bertha was just weak. Now she might be stronger and can fight it off or with any luck, the antibiotics knocked it off.
I'm just imagining....


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> It would take a small Tsunami to wash it to the other pens. I'm more worried about garden tools and tracking poo on my shoes back and forth..
> The one thing that eases my mind about THAT is that her sister, who lived with her for at least eight years and was with her when I got them together is still fine. She is as active as a little mule......And so are the other four living with her.
> So it stands to reason that if it was/is a virus and the others were exposed to it, but didn't succumb, That maybe Bertha was just weak. Now she might be stronger and can fight it off or with any luck, the antibiotics knocked it off.
> I'm just imagining....


That's the way I'd think (and certainly hope) too.
The others may have an immunity that Bertha didn't, the illness may be more physiological or genetic than pathogenic or Bertha may just be weaker , the runt of the litter' so to speak.
Sorry, I meant Queen Bertha.


----------



## Angel Carrion

ZEROPILOT said:


> It would take a small Tsunami to wash it to the other pens. I'm more worried about garden tools and tracking poo on my shoes back and forth..
> The one thing that eases my mind about THAT is that her sister, who lived with her for at least eight years and was with her when I got them together is still fine. She is as active as a little mule......And so are the other four living with her.
> So it stands to reason that if it was/is a virus and the others were exposed to it, but didn't succumb, That maybe Bertha was just weak. Now she might be stronger and can fight it off or with any luck, the antibiotics knocked it off.
> I'm just imagining....


Small wonders, I guess. Thankfully the sister is safe and healthy. So many it is not contagious....


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Tidgy's Dad said:


> That's the way I'd think (and certainly hope) too.
> The others may have an immunity that Bertha didn't, the illness may be more physiological or genetic than pathogenic or Bertha may just be weaker , the runt of the litter' so to speak.
> Sorry, I meant Queen Bertha.


I've been so sloppy in my quarantine and separate bowls and different tools, It would stand to reason that they SHOULD ALL be ill.
So that is the best theory that I have. Bertha has a yet UNdetected, UNdiagnosed internal PHYSICAL issue. Or a mild virus that a healthier tortoise could have dealt with.
What do you think?


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> I've been so sloppy in my quarantine and separate bowls and different tools, It would stand to reason that they SHOULD ALL be ill.
> So that is the best theory that I have. Bertha has a yet UNdetected, UNdiagnosed internal PHYSICAL issue. Or a mild virus that a healthier tortoise could have dealt with.
> What do you think?


Well you know me, Ed, I read a lot, but ultimately rely on gut instinct a lot too.
I'm absolutely no expert and have no personal experience of either redfoots or what Bertha has been through, but I tend to agree.
If and when Queen Bertha gets through this, I would wait a bit and then reintroduce her.
I too suspect a physical problem at least underlying any later infection and I'm sure the others would have got it by now.
Maybe they have ( but I think not) and the symptoms are not yet showing or they're more resistant and will never get sick. 
Just my opinion for what it's worth.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I've already mad the decision that even if Queen B gets better, she will live alone. I don't want her ever getting any stress again of any kind.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> I've already mad the decision that even if Queen B gets better, she will live alone. I don't want her ever getting any stress again of any kind.


OK, i get that, but I wouldn't be overly concerned about cross-contamination on a speck of mud or something.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Tidgy's Dad said:


> OK, i get that, but I wouldn't be overly concerned about cross-contamination on a speck of mud or something.


It must be obvious by now. I worry about it ALL.
Thanks.


----------



## tortadise

Have you had a PCR done on TINC (intranuclear coccidiosis) yet? I've dealt with that before, and it's one of the worst things imaginable. It reaffirmed why I quarantine. It's highly contagious and lives in the soil. This sounds exactly like what a leopard tortoise that came here had. I strongly recommend that. Tests are done through UFL.


----------



## tortadise

I know you've spent a fortune but these are well worth it. Most vets done even know where to begin if all fails at in house and even out sourced lab testing. I'd go with the coccidia test first. Try and get as many samples as possible. This tests negative a lot but still can be present.


----------



## Pearly

ZEROPILOT said:


> The main thing was and still is...Even if she dies or I have to have her put down....IS SHE CONTAGIOUS?
> I don't want this to happen six more times.
> My yard isn't that huge and It's hard to keep everything sterile and separate.


I doubt it. Her symptoms are more indicative of some type of internal organ disease of some sort. Her white count was up, but she's been on broad spectrum antibiotic, which should cover bacterial infection. I doubt it's virus making her sick. Virus likes to replicate like crazy, very rapidly, hence the usually quick onset of symptoms that develop into acute illness, it's more like an avalanche, which either passes or kills the host, but I haven't heard of acute viral illness to go on for months. Again, my voice comes from human medicine but I think there are many similarities in all life forms even between cold and warm blooded ones. Plus when you told us about her white count being elevated you didn't mention lymphocytes (those numbers would typically be off in viral infection), so I'd lean against the "contagious" theory. It is always a good idea to keep UNIVERSAL PRECAUTIONS which means treating all of them as if they were contagious (without exaggerating)


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Honestly. I'm about done with the tests.
Right now my 15 year old dog has stopped eating and I've made an emergency apt for the morning.
So much of my time has been spent on Bertha....


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Honestly. I'm about done with the tests.
> Right now my 15 year old dog has stopped eating and I've made an emergency apt for the morning.
> So much of my time has been spent on Bertha....


As if you haven't enough on your plate Ed! I know its a worry with older dogs but hope its just a phase for him or maybe his meds need adjusting.
Thinking of you.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Good luck with that, Ed.
So sorry that you have this to worry about too.


----------



## Rutibegga

Good luck on both fronts. Dealing with sick pets is so hard.


----------



## Pearly

Omg! I am so sorry to hear things pile up on you! Hang in there! I hope your dog is just having a little "senior moment". Hang in there


----------



## 4jean

Good luck with your dog. I'm sorry you are going through so many pet troubles. I hope you have smooth sailing soon.


----------



## Pearly

tortadise said:


> Have you had a PCR done on TINC (intranuclear coccidiosis) yet? I've dealt with that before, and it's one of the worst things imaginable. It reaffirmed why I quarantine. It's highly contagious and lives in the soil. This sounds exactly like what a leopard tortoise that came here had. I strongly recommend that. Tests are done through UFL.


Good morning, and OMG! I was under the assumption that "fecal" was done on Bertha, but after all the reading I've done since last night I realize that it may have not covered PCR screening. Can you ask the vet is she had by chance sent the sample off for testing? I didn't have that acute awareness of this parasite being so prevalent, because I've just never heard of human case of coccidia. I know you have your hands full with working and caring for sick animals. Bless your heart. I know you maybe feeling drained physically, emotionally and financially. I have been following Bertha for a while and became attached to her and very fond of you as a fellow "animal fanatic" just like I am. I do not presume to give advise because I'm very new at tortoise keeping. What I am saying is this: if nothing else, call the vet and ask if she did the fecal test suggested by Tortadise (quoted above). From what I read coccidia i fairly common in dogs and cats, they catch it easily but sometimes don't develop symptoms until they are under some stress. Might want to run the "coccidia idea" by your dog's vet as well just in case. Coccidia doesn't seem to cross from animals to humans but I'm not sure about interspecies crosscontamination. There is lot of info about it online and a very good thread on this topic here on this forum. I still haven't had the time to figure out how to post links here, but you should be able to find it when you type key words : BUBONIC PLAGUE IN TORTOISES. Best of luck. I pray for positive turn of events for you. Take care


----------



## stojanovski92113

Hang in there and keep us updated please.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I had to have my dog, Chester put to sleep this morning. He couldn't breathe and wouldn't eat.
I've been so obsessed with Bertha I wasn't even paying much attention to him.
His heart condition finally took him. I wasn't about to watch him suffer.
It was truly one of hardest things I've ever had to do.
He's being cremated.
As for Bertha. She is just sitting around and ignoring food. One thing that I am very aware of is that now that there is fecal material around, she could now pass on an illness that she could not before. So there are new protocols. I've asked my wife not to even go near her. And when I do feedings, cleanings, etc. It will be in reverse order with her being last. Then clean up.
This way I can't track anything from her pen.
I'm leaving now. I want to get all of Chesters toys and bedding out of here so that I don't have to look at it and feel guilty.
As for Bertha, she is now on her own. She gets the last antibiotic shot today. Then it is 100% up to her.


----------



## keepergale

Oh that sucks. I have had to do that a couple times. It doesn't make it any easier but waiting too long would not have been doing your dog any favor.


----------



## Careym13

I'm so sorry about Chester. I had to do that recently as well and although you know it is the right thing, it still feels wrong in some way. I hope you find peace knowing that he is no longer suffering. I will continue to keep my fingers crossed for Bertha.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Thanks. The last 24 hours Chester was clearly suffering. I was awake with him all last night holding him and trying to make him feel secure.


----------



## Momof4

Hugs to you Ed. RIP Chester.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Still really, really hoping Bertha makes it though.
You know how I feel about all this, Ed.
So, sorry.


----------



## Merrick

I am sorry for your loss. Hopefully Bertha will get better and cheer you up. Good luck to you and Bertha


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> I had to have my dog, Chester put to sleep this morning. He couldn't breathe and wouldn't eat.
> I've been so obsessed with Bertha I wasn't even paying much attention to him.
> His heart condition finally took him. I wasn't about to watch him suffer.
> It was truly one of hardest things I've ever had to do.
> He's being cremated.
> As for Bertha. She is just sitting around and ignoring food. One thing that I am very aware of is that now that there is fecal material around, she could now pass on an illness that she could not before. So there are new protocols. I've asked my wife not to even go near her. And when I do feedings, cleanings, etc. It will be in reverse order with her being last. Then clean up.
> This way I can't track anything from her pen.
> I'm leaving now. I want to get all of Chesters toys and bedding out of here so that I don't have to look at it and feel guilty.
> As for Bertha, she is now on her own. She gets the last antibiotic shot today. Then it is 100% up to her.


So sorry for your loss, sad. But the right thing to do. As for Bertha, I agree with you. Keep her seperate and see how she goes it alone. I'd bathe her still, every day. Been meaning to ask you for a while now. Are your other torts at mature breeding age. Is this something you would like to do? Raise juveniles from scratch?


----------



## Pearly

My sincerest condolences. I've been there! And know the heart break all too well! I had to put down two of my belowed companions of 15 years at this same time. And few months before I had lost my only outdoor kitty, ferral, who had adopted us and lived inside and outside during a day and in his warm kitty house in the garage on cold winter nights. I too, was preoccupied with other things and my sweet boys' decline had got my by surprise. I felt guilt and utter devastation. It took me a whole year of daily crying whenever I walked into the kichen and they were not there. That was 6 years ago. I still miss them but the pain is more... of an ache now. We all grieve and cope with pain in our own ways and whatever yours is, it's ok. Allow yourself the time to grieve, but please, do not resent Bertha for being a distraction. I felt anger towards my "distraction" 6 years ago but that didn't really help me heal. What did help a little was spiritual connection with my lost pets that I was able to achieve with the help of the Rainbow Bridge- A Pet Loss Grief Community that just kinda "fell on my lap" during random internet browsing at that time. They have lot of tips on how to help heal a broken heart after loosing a pet. Whatever helps you deal with the hurt is ok just please, know that all of us animal lovers are connected with you in spirit and our energy surrounds you and your wife today and in the days going forwad, and "nestle" your hurting souls imersing them in our love to help you heal. Sorry about long posts, but I have yet to learn to pour out my own soul in telegraphic one or two sentences. We love you Zeropilot and your wife and send you both hugs. RIP sweet Chester.


----------



## stojanovski92113

ZEROPILOT said:


> Thanks. The last 24 hours Chester was clearly suffering. I was awake with him all last night holding him and trying to make him feel secure.


I am so sorry...


----------



## johnandjade

aw ed sorry to read the update . i've had to put 3 dogs to sleep i know how hard it is. thoughs are with you, hope your keeping strong.


----------



## tortadise

Pearly said:


> Good morning, and OMG! I was under the assumption that "fecal" was done on Bertha, but after all the reading I've done since last night I realize that it may have not covered PCR screening. Can you ask the vet is she had by chance sent the sample off for testing? I didn't have that acute awareness of this parasite being so prevalent, because I've just never heard of human case of coccidia. I know you have your hands full with working and caring for sick animals. Bless your heart. I know you maybe feeling drained physically, emotionally and financially. I have been following Bertha for a while and became attached to her and very fond of you as a fellow "animal fanatic" just like I am. I do not presume to give advise because I'm very new at tortoise keeping. What I am saying is this: if nothing else, call the vet and ask if she did the fecal test suggested by Tortadise (quoted above). From what I read coccidia i fairly common in dogs and cats, they catch it easily but sometimes don't develop symptoms until they are under some stress. Might want to run the "coccidia idea" by your dog's vet as well just in case. Coccidia doesn't seem to cross from animals to humans but I'm not sure about interspecies crosscontamination. There is lot of info about it online and a very good thread on this topic here on this forum. I still haven't had the time to figure out how to post links here, but you should be able to find it when you type key words : BUBONIC PLAGUE IN TORTOISES. Best of luck. I pray for positive turn of events for you. Take care


It's extremely prevalent. The problem is it's not and can't be tested through in house vets. They use a very expensive and detailed microscope to find it. Same lab tests mycoplasma, irridiovirus, ranoviris, toxoplasmosis. In situations like this. I would be willing to bet it's something very bad that can't be seen or diagnosed through in house practice screening. Which will and does expose potential to the other animals. This can be spread through bugs like flies, roaches, or gnats that get on te fecal matter or urine expelled from "infected" animal then land on the food just a pen away and transmit it that way. It's rare yes that sort of tramsision but it's very possible. The leopard tortoise that was here displayed very very similar behaviorisms. I sure hope it's not the case here


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I took the "selfie" at the vet once I decided to put him down.


----------



## Jodie

I am so sorry you are going through all of this. You have my deepest sympathy for losing Chester. I completely understand the guilt. I have only had to do that once, and I agree it was the hardest thing I have ever done. You know it is for the best, but it feels awful. 
Hang in there. We are all with you.


----------



## Jodie

ZEROPILOT said:


> I took the "selfie" at the vet once I decided to put him down.


What a sweet face. So glad he didn't have to suffer and so sorry.


----------



## tortadise

ZEROPILOT said:


> I took the "selfie" at the vet once I decided to put him down.


So sorry! That's never easy


----------



## leigti

I don't know what else to say except that I am very sorry. You made a very difficult, selfless decision. I have been there and I know how you feel.


----------



## Carol S

So sorry for your loss.


----------



## Randi

I'm so sorry for your loss. I hope the memories that you made together bring you some comfort and peace. My thoughts are with you and your wife, as this is a very devastating time in your life. Again, I'm so sorry for your loss. Rest in Peace, Chester. 

I certainly hope that Queen Bertha recovers quickly. Fingers and toes crossed.  Best of luck!!


----------



## Tort Love

P


ZEROPILOT said:


> Bertha received the tube as a last effort after not eating for 3 to 4 months and slipping into a weakened state and could no longer support herself on her legs.
> I began feeding her a slurry of Pedialite and Oxbow Critical Care.
> A few weeks after the tube was placed she nibbled food and then started eating a lot. She ate for eleven days. The x ray shows that the food is still in there. Tortoise digestion is very slow. On the eleventh day, she ate in the morning, Mazuri tortoise chow and an hour later appeared to have died. The next day I found that she had not.
> More tests were done. This time a mildly elevated white blood count was found.
> She had totally stopped eating and drinking.
> I started the rounds of antibiotics.
> A few days later she pulled out her tube, stitches and all.
> Since then she has begun to walk a little but is still not eating at all. Not drinking very much and can't seem to poop, although she is trying to constantly.
> That is the mini history to bring everyone up to speed and to help better understand the situation.
> Two vets. A dozen tests. An operation and about $2,000 spent. I wont stop at a $30 probiotic if it is deemed necessary.
> I don't plan on giving up until she does.


Praying for her


----------



## 4jean

I am so sorry for your loss. Chester looked like a wonderful companion. It is so hard to make that decision, but you owed it to him to help him pass with dignity at the end. Hang in there.


----------



## ShannonC

I know there is nothing I can say to make you feel better. Just know that you are in my thoughts!! I hope you get some rest and things settle down for you soon!!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Thanks everyone.
I still see him everywhere.
I got up last night to take him out for a walk.
Bertha got her final injection of antibiotic but hasn't eaten, drank or moved an inch in over 48 hours.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Thanks everyone.
> I still see him everywhere.
> I got up last night to take him out for a walk.
> Bertha got her final injection of antibiotic but hasn't eaten, drank or moved an inch in over 48 hours.


15 years is along time Ed - Chester was a little dog but he's left a big hole in your life.
Hope Bertha rallies with a few soaks maybe.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Lyn W said:


> 15 years is along time Ed - Chester was a little dog but he's left a big hole in your life.
> Hope Bertha rallies with a few soaks maybe.


Thanks Lyn. I wasn't ready to lose Chester. He got I'll and died within 24 hours.
He was happy and healthy for 15 years.

Bertha gets soaks every day still. She just sits there. I have to make sure to keep the level below her nostrils because I'm not sure she wouldn't just drown.


----------



## mike taylor

You maybe fighting a battle you can't win with her . I sure hopes she pulls out of if soon . She seems to be to old or to sick to pull out of it . I sure hope she proves me wrong . Sorry your little buddy died . I would be lost without my bulldog .


----------



## mike taylor

He is always up my butt . ha-ha He makes you love him .


----------



## Angel Carrion

mike taylor said:


> He is always up my butt . ha-ha He makes you love him .



View attachment ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1439087132.388887.jpg

This is my butt-sniffer. He always has to follow momma. I don't even need a leash for him, but use one anyway because people in my neighborhood have threatened to shoot him because they don't like 'vicious breeds'. *eye roll*
So I can't really take him for walks around my neighborhood anymore.... Luckily I can drive to a creek/park where he can run all he likes with no one around.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Bertha is more or less inactive.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

sorry, photos not working on TFO at the moment.
This comes out 10 times bigger than my screen and I can't make much out. 
Poor Bertha.
More or less?
There's still some fight in her?


----------



## leigti

On my iPhone it comes out fine, I just tap it and it shows up great. I'm sorry she's not more active. You have definitely done all you can for her.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Bertha is more or less inactive.


At least she's not tucked herself in tightly so there is some interest and spark left.
Still sending hope and good wishes


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Bertha is more or less inactive.


You can't do anything more than you are. Give her time, see if she gets over the ordeal of injections etc. She's had a very stressful few months. Best to leave her and see what happens IMO. Offer food and water, bathe her daily. That's all you can do for now.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Yes. The photos are weird.
Today Queen B seems to have eaten a leaf of kale. I placed one Romaine. One Kale and some cactus. The Kale is missing...


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

All kale Queen Bertha!


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yes. The photos are weird.
> Today Queen B seems to have eaten a leaf of kale. I placed one Romaine. One Kale and some cactus. The Kale is missing...


Good news and cautious optimism!


----------



## Anyfoot

I have a good feeling about Bertha ed. She's going to pull through. My Misses says so she's always right . Her theory is to leave the tort to its own natural recovery.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Anyfoot said:


> I have a good feeling about Bertha ed. She's going to pull through. My Misses says so she's always right . Her theory is to leave the tort to its own natural recovery.


I hope so. I finally told my wife the grand total of Berthas health care since I purchased her and it didn't go over very well.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> I hope so. I finally told my wife the grand total of Berthas health care since I purchased her and it didn't go over very well.


Dont worry. Im getting the cost thing in the neck all the time. Lol. I'm building a tort house instead of having a new bathroom lol. Got to get your priorities right. Torts come first . Seriously though, when we talk about your Bertha, dawn as always said to leave her be.
What ever happens, I don't think we are going to find out the truth behind her illness and what did and didn't help her. One thing I know dawn is right about, she's had a lot of stress. So keep the stress down and we will see what happens. Sounds a bit better though doesn't it.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

No. But she is no worse.
I wish she would drink.


----------



## Pearly

ZEROPILOT said:


> No. But she is no worse.
> I wish she would drink.


Good morning, switching from agressive pursuit of curative treatment to palliative care can be a hard concept as it means huge shift of a mind set. I didn't realize your wife was not on this same page with you as far as decision making on the level of spending for Bertha's treatment. I can imagine how you must feel right now my friend but remembers that this too shall pass as nothing in this life lasts. CHANGE is the only CONSTANT we should expect. I hope this week brings you some positive turns of events with Bertha and in general


----------



## ZEROPILOT

My whole way of thinking has changed.


----------



## Joanne

Wow, I've read through everything and you've been through a lot. Hope that Bertha pulls through. I personally would just soak every day and offer food now. She might just be a quieter, slower tortoise than the others (although not eating for several months does indicate that something was wrong)!

Do redfoot tortoises hibernate?


----------



## JoesMum

Joanne said:


> Wow, I've read through everything and you've been through a lot. Hope that Bertha pulls through. I personally would just soak every day and offer food now. She might just be a quieter, slower tortoise than the others (although not eating for several months does indicate that something was wrong)!
> 
> Do redfoot tortoises hibernate?


No they don't hibernate


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## Joanne

Ah ok. So many species, so little time!!


----------



## stojanovski92113

ZEROPILOT said:


> I hope so. I finally told my wife the grand total of Berthas health care since I purchased her and it didn't go over very well.


Reading your threads in the past and all the times I saw you stated going to the vet, I was thinking to myself, that had to add up!!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

stojanovski92113 said:


> Reading your threads in the past and all the times I saw you stated going to the vet, I was thinking to myself, that had to add up!!


Yes. And that was O.K.
However, what do I really have to show for it?
The same ill tortoise.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

My focus has shifted from 100% make Bertha well. To 100% Keep the other six well and allow Bertha to live or die on her own..
No more tests, tubes, needles or medicine.
She's not eating or drinking and I'm monitoring her weight each night before her soak. If she gets under 8 pounds I'm going to have to look into having her put down. Her sister who is a little smaller is over 15 pounds.


----------



## Lyn W

Well no one can say you haven't tried Ed.
Maybe once all the meds are put of her system it may kick start her own immune system into action.
I could be talking absolute rubbish but who knows? It's all such a mystery.
I am still wishing and willing Queen B well.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She has rallied before. 
She needs to do it again.
her quality of life has been pure crap.


----------



## Lyn W

Yup this young lady and you have really been through the mill.
She has shown us that anything is possible before and
hopefully she can do it again.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She has had a few moments. We'll see.
If she starts to drink again, she could still be O.K.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> She has had a few moments. We'll see.
> If she starts to drink again, she could still be O.K.


I rarely see Lola drink.
He never drinks in his soak but assume from the wee he produces he is taking in plenty of water.
I also make sure all his food is well sprayed and hydrated.
Having said that I did catch him drinking out of a big flat tray yesterday.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

My other Redfoot drink a ton of water. They jam their heads in and just gulp for several minutes. There is nothing subtle about it. None of my other tortoises get soaked, either because they all spend time wading in one of the pools out side.


----------



## Pearly

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yes. And that was O.K.
> However, what do I really have to show for it?
> The same ill tortoise.


Good morning. What puzzles me is the motives of the vet who seemed not to mind putting you through all the expense of perhaps unnecessary procedures. My vet would never do it knowing how hard I work every day (or night) to earn those dollars.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I think that for whatever reason she feels that it's a simple matter.
She has been reluctant to perform some tests that I specifically asked for. And she talks over me regularly when I'm explaining something.
None of that matters now because I'm not going back.
It's not that I think she's a bad vet, but she struck out on this one.
My thought is that like the rest of us she is just guessing.
No hard feelings.
I would still recommend her for warm blooded exotics. They are her primary patients.


----------



## Angel Carrion

ZEROPILOT said:


> I think that for whatever reason she feels that it's a simple matter.
> She has been reluctant to perform some tests that I specifically asked for. And she talks over me regularly when I'm explaining something.
> None of that matters now because I'm not going back.
> It's not that I think she's a bad vet, but she struck out on this one.
> My thought is that like the rest of us she is just guessing.
> No hard feelings.
> However, I won't be back.



Yeah, I hate it when they talk over me when I'm trying to explain something. Usually the question or remark they say, I was about to answer or what I was saying was negating the remark. Luckily the vet I see now for my turtles only did that during the first half of the first visit. He stopped when he realized that, while I don't know nearly enough in my opinion, I know enough that we can have an actual debate and thought provoking conversation. Once he realized that, he stopped interrupting and let's me finish my ramblings. So I try very hard to keep my ramblings on point.

Not saying that's what's going on with your vet. I was just lucky enough to find one that stopped doing that. Previous vets never stopped talking over me, and I found myself correcting their assumptions. Like the first reptile vet I took my first turtle to. She still thought pyramiding was caused by too high of a protein diet. When I said lack of humidity, she scoffed and said that's been proven false and that too high humidity (regardless of equally high temps) will cause RI's and shell rot.
While I do think diet may play a role in pyramiding in growing turtles and torts, I know that humidity and moisture play the biggest role. Needless to say I don't go to her anymore....


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

_Please_ Bertha, at least have a little drink.


----------



## Robertchrisroph

You need a vacation. take care of this, that, everything. How are you? up so early for work, animals, wife. I hope you take care of number one, You!!! Good luck and best wishes


----------



## Jodie

I agree with the above post you have been through a lot lately. Take some time and distress. Take care of you for a while. Best wishes to you and Bertha.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I still have the dozen or so fish tanks, too.
I need to cut back.


----------



## Anyfoot

Keep the fish tanks, they will be OK for all the juveniles your going to have


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Anyfoot said:


> Keep the fish tanks, they will be OK for all the juveniles your going to have


They are full of gigantic fish.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

gigantic hungry and mostly neglected fish


----------



## Pearly

ZEROPILOT said:


> I think that for whatever reason she feels that it's a simple matter.
> She has been reluctant to perform some tests that I specifically asked for. And she talks over me regularly when I'm explaining something.
> None of that matters now because I'm not going back.
> It's not that I think she's a bad vet, but she struck out on this one.
> My thought is that like the rest of us she is just guessing.
> No hard feelings.
> I would still recommend her for warm blooded exotics. They are her primary patients.


"Simple matter"??? No human doctor, ever! takes likely feeding tubes, especially ones percutaneously inserted. Those are fairly simple but very invasive procedures. First of all why would anyone want to stick a tube in without even knowing what the problem is. Cost aside (though I'd be curious to see your vet bill for that feeding tube visit) she put the animal at great risk of infection and number of other complications. And all that (plus the $$$!) without clear differential diagnosis? Again, my strong feelings about this maybe skewed by my "human experience" but I hear those stories of medical professionals milking their human patients or pet owners accounts in the name of the almighty dollar and it just makes me sick. This vet maybe the nicest person in a world, but in my view she maybe either incompetent and not knowing what the heck she is doing or inconsiderate of her clients finances. The fact is that most of us the pet owners are hard working people who don't have bottomless resources and a vet with some professional integrity would consider that. I maybe more upset about this than you are after having followed your Bertha saga. Being a newcomer I hate to come across as being opinionated or stir things up. I've just had some bad experience in vet care in the past when I was novice in dealing with this (that was dogs and cats) where I have been "taken for a ride" couple of times. I would have swallowed my pride if my pets had positive outcomes or at least benefited from me being taken advantage if, but they didn't that's why these days I am very cautious and ask lots of questions. My favorite question is "WHY?" If they can't convince me that it's beneficial for my pet our benefits outweigh the risk etc, I don't allow it. Another thing I had learned was to have all simple procedures (blood/urine draws) in my presence. No taking my animals "back". Though the last vet we've had has been with our cats for past 15 years and I do trust him, and he knows that I'm a major pain in the neck and comes prepared to answer all my questions, and he is ok with that, just because he loves animals and knows how much I love mine. I hope for the best for you and Bertha. And again, I am so sorry about Chester. I hope your heart heals soon


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Thanks, Pearly. To tell you the truth, I'm just numb about it all.
I pick up Chesters remains today after work and I just don't seem to care as much about anything right now.


----------



## Gillian M

Lyn W said:


> I rarely see Lola drink.
> He never drinks in his soak but assume from the wee he produces he is taking in plenty of water.
> I also make sure all his food is well sprayed and hydrated.
> Having said that I did catch him drinking out of a big flat tray yesterday.


Oli drinks while being soaked and that's something I sat and watched intentionally.


----------



## Pearly

Darn auto spell check! I meant no doc takes LIGHTLY feeding tubes


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Thanks, Pearly. To tell you the truth, I'm just numb about it all.
> I pick up Chesters remains today after work and I just don't seem to care as much about anything right now.


Humour will bring you round. Think of me n dawn chewing cactus at the airport.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

And jellyfish frisbee in The Cold Dark Room.


----------



## wellington

I'm a little behind on this thread, just read about your dog. Omg, I am so very very sorry. I friend and forum member just lost one of her dogs about a month ago and almost a second one. It is so hard. 15 years, thats a long time, you did good. I know it doesn't feel like it, but you did the right thing by not making him suffer as hard of a decision it is, you thought about him before yourself. Again, so very sorry, I know the pain, all too well. It does get better, it may never go away completely, but you always have the good times to hold onto.


----------



## Amanda81

ZEROPILOT said:


> I think that for whatever reason she feels that it's a simple matter.
> She has been reluctant to perform some tests that I specifically asked for. And she talks over me regularly when I'm explaining something.
> None of that matters now because I'm not going back.
> It's not that I think she's a bad vet, but she struck out on this one.
> My thought is that like the rest of us she is just guessing.
> No hard feelings.
> I would still recommend her for warm blooded exotics. They are her primary patients.



She has a show that comes on animal planet. Last season she had a tortoise patient, she worked on it but ultimately she ended up taking it back to the owner (who was a vet themselves) because it needed some special test that she couldn't do. I know your past running test and vet visits but perhaps, as a last ditch effort, you could get a referral to a vet that's better with tortoises, even if ya just sent a detailed timeline to them to review, perhaps they could suggest something. Either way I really hope she pulls out of this for ya.


----------



## stojanovski92113

ZEROPILOT said:


> Thanks, Pearly. To tell you the truth, I'm just numb about it all.
> I pick up Chesters remains today after work and I just don't seem to care as much about anything right now.


I'm sorry.....


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Thanks, Pearly. To tell you the truth, I'm just numb about it all.
> I pick up Chesters remains today after work and I just don't seem to care as much about anything right now.


What's the latest with Bertha ed. Got through customs with no problems.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Great.
Bertha sat out in the rain all day.
I soaked her and placed her in her house with some food but she walked over the food and was sitting in the open again this morning.
I'll try mango this weekend. It worked once before and the rest of the gang will like the treat also.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I got back Chesters remains. It was a wooden urn. A card with a place for a photo. A rose and a cement or epoxy pendant with his paw print on it.
I didn't take photos. I put it all back in its box. I'll deal with it later on.


----------



## Pearly

How about papaya? It has tummy soothing properties


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Everyone but her ate some about a week ago.


----------



## newCH

I am so sorry that Chester got sick. Your time with him doesn't compare with your short time looking after Bertha. 
I took it hard last year when my 1st & only dog that I ever had died. It was 3 weeks of decline, with a diagnosis of COPD.
Ended up having a blood disorder. We made arrangements for the vet to come to out house to put him to sleep.
That same night he had a medical emergency & we rushed him to the vets office at 12:30 am & the vet met us there.
He didnt even charge me for after hours or emergency, just for the shot. 
We had Buster cremated too. (never done that before, but glad I did) 
I am sure after that my husband was concerned. I created a Buster photo album, and found a spot to add some of
his best pics. (he was quite photogenic ! ) 
I gave our other dog Coco more attention since during Buster's illness she had to play second fiddle to his care. She was always
understanding of that & she is now our only dog.
My husband wanted to make me happy again & get another beagle. I told him no, and still feel the same way, as
it wouldn't be fair to the next dog. 
They make such a great impression on our lives & make us better people for that.
It takes time & there will always be that fondness in our hearts. Take care.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Thank you very much


----------



## Aunt Caffy

newCH said:


> I am so sorry that Chester got sick. Your time with him doesn't compare with your short time looking after Bertha.
> I took it hard last year when my 1st & only dog that I ever had died. It was 3 weeks of decline, with a diagnosis of COPD.
> Ended up having a blood disorder. We made arrangements for the vet to come to out house to put him to sleep.
> That same night he had a medical emergency & we rushed him to the vets office at 12:30 am & the vet met us there.
> He didnt even charge me for after hours or emergency, just for the shot.
> We had Buster cremated too. (never done that before, but glad I did)
> I am sure after that my husband was concerned. I created a Buster photo album, and found a spot to add some of
> his best pics. (he was quite photogenic ! )
> I gave our other dog Coco more attention since during Buster's illness she had to play second fiddle to his care. She was always
> understanding of that & she is now our only dog.
> My husband wanted to make me happy again & get another beagle. I told him no, and still feel the same way, as
> it wouldn't be fair to the next dog.
> They make such a great impression on our lives & make us better people for that.
> It takes time & there will always be that fondness in our hearts. Take care.


Great picture. You had a beautiful baby. Hold onto those memories.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Aunt Caffy said:


> Great picture. You had a beautiful baby. Hold onto those memories.


I have a zillion great memories. He was a great pal.
Happy Birthday.


----------



## Anyfoot

How's Bertha going.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Sitting. Looking out of her house.
No food. No water consumed.
The same.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Sitting. Looking out of her house.
> No food. No water consumed.
> The same.


What a blooming shame! She won't even drink if the water is under her nose?
Does she move at all, Ed?
Come on Bertha help yourself!!!!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I'm adding new sleeping quarters to my largest pen tomorrow.
It's going to mount on the outside of the pen and they can enter through a hold I'll cut in the wall. Then I can remove a doghouse from the inside, giving them more square footage and a double sized new sleep house with a cooling fan.
During this renovation I'll place Bertha out in the main yard and see if she wants to explore.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'm adding new sleeping quarters to my largest pen tomorrow.
> It's going to mount on the outside of the pen and they can enter through a hold I'll cut in the wall. Then I can remove a doghouse from the inside, giving them more square footage and a double sized new sleep house with a cooling fan.
> During this renovation I'll place Bertha out in the main yard and see if she wants to explore.


Sounds great for them.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

When I soak her I ad more and more water. She just raises her head higher and higher.
She will not drink.
She used to plunge her whole head in and gulp.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> When I soak her I ad more and more water. She just raises her head higher and higher.
> She will not drink.
> She used to plunge her whole head in and gulp.


Its so strange and so sad - it's as if her survival instinct has gone.
I know you said she's on her own now but can you squirt some water in?
or are you just letting nature take it's course completely


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Putting anything in her mouth would be nearly impossible.
She pulls her armor plated legs in front of her head.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Putting anything in her mouth would be nearly impossible.
> She pulls her armor plated legs in front of her head.


Yes of course she does - daft idea!
The only way I can get Lola to stick his out is if I tilt him forward but then getting the mouth open is another thing!
Ignore me Ed!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I actually just caught the little sh#t drinking.
So I put her back out with a little Mazuri And Romaine.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

GO ON, Queen Bertha!
Today it could all turn around!


----------



## Lyn W

Very sneaky!! But great!


----------



## Rutibegga

Get it, Bertha! She's a pretty tort, by the way.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

No changes today.
Tomorrow is mango day, though.....


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> No changes today.
> Tomorrow is mango day, though.....


Did she eat any of the mazuri yesterday Ed?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Lyn W said:


> Did she eat any of the mazuri yesterday Ed?


No. But at one point she climbed over it and sat on the plate to tell me exactly what she thought of my efforts.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> No. But at one point she climbed over it and sat on the plate to tell me exactly what she thought of my efforts.


It was presented so nicely too. Ungrateful girl !


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Maybe a sprig of parsley or an orange peel garnish?


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Maybe a sprig of parsley or an orange peel garnish?


Could have made all the difference!
Maybe next time........?
Lola always does that - lies in her food or drags it all over the place.
No manners.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Maybe a sprig of parsley or an orange peel garnish?


Ed. I have a couple of new torts. Tomorrow I'm going to need your sexpert advice. One of these is extremely hard to sex. May need some experts involved. 
Hope Bertha feeds tomorrow. Good luck.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Who needs unappreciative children when you have tortoises.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Anyfoot said:


> Ed. I have a couple of new torts. Tomorrow I'm going to need your sexpert advice. One of these is extremely hard to sex. May need some experts involved.
> Hope Bertha feeds tomorrow. Good luck.


I'll do my best but my "sexvice" is still about 75%.


----------



## Lyn W

Any change with Bertha over the weekend Ed?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

No.
She sat in the rain for a couple of days.
I placed her back inside her house.
No more water either. Just the one time.


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> No.
> She sat in the rain for a couple of days.
> I placed her back inside her house.
> No more water either. Just the one time.


Silly tort!
Couldn't tempt her with the mango either?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Actually I never got mangoes.
Papaya was cheaper this week and it didn't work either.


----------



## Pearly

Good golly! She is a stubborn Big Bertha! How about fresh fig? I saw them at the store just the other day, made me think of your Bertha


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Actually I never got mangoes.
> Papaya was cheaper this week and it didn't work either.


Damn!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I know I'm a little light in the photos, but I place no fewer than 4 or 5 different items in front of her daily and I mix them up looking for the one item that she'll eat. If she eats that item, within two days she will no longer want it anymore and then I have to start all over again. This has been going on for a little more than a year.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> I know I'm a little light in the photos, but I place no fewer than 4 or 5 different items in front of her daily and I mix them up looking for the one item that she'll eat. If she eats that item, within two days she will no longer want it anymore and then I have to start all over again. This has been going on for a little more than a year.


Is she loosing a lot of weight?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Yes. But mostly because of her reluctance to drink. The water adds a lot very quickly.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yes. But mostly because of her reluctance to drink. The water adds a lot very quickly.


Do you have an area outside where she can pick at growing weeds. At her last home was she allowed to wander outdoors picking at whatever she crossed. Some of mine eat grass, but only from the garden, if you pick it for them they wont eat it.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I park her royal rear end in the yard a few times a week and then go retrieve her a couple hours later from exactly the same spot. Sometimes she will have moved a foot or two.
My other tortoises will eat yard grass, but only if I'm late with the "real" food.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

I have heard of tortoises being hand fed or even force fed, becoming accustomed to it and only eating like that.
Has Bertha just got used to not feeding herself or exercising, do you think?


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> I park her royal rear end in the yard a few times a week and then go retrieve her a couple hours later from exactly the same spot. Sometimes she will have moved a foot or two.
> My other tortoises will eat yard grass, but only if I'm late with the "real" food.


I can't think of anything else. Other than keep offering food,water and baths. It's frustrating for us, so god knows what your like.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

It's getting pretty old, pretty quickly. I can tell you that.


----------



## Pearly

I know you are feeling totally spent, but remember us taking about probiotic? I think it was called iFlora, maybe there are others. I'm not sure if the cultures in the ones we have available for us humans would be good to populate reptile guts with. From what I had read back then this iFlora was specifically designed for torts (or reptiles in general) and it was said to be "medical grade". I'll look into this again and will let you know. Meanwhile perhaps there are tort experts out there who have already looked into the subject and can set things straight for us?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Pearly said:


> I know you are feeling totally spent, but remember us taking about probiotic? I think it was called iFlora, maybe there are others. I'm not sure if the cultures in the ones we have available for us humans would be good to populate reptile guts with. From what I had read back then this iFlora was specifically designed for torts (or reptiles in general) and it was said to be "medical grade". I'll look into this again and will let you know. Meanwhile perhaps there are tort experts out there who have already looked into the subject and can set things straight for us?


Right now even if I had a MIRACLE pill, I still would have no way of making her eat it. Even though I saw that some Romaine was missing yesterday. It was a very small section.


----------



## Gillian M

Hi Ed. How is Bertha doing today. Sincerely hope to hear she's better.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Gillian Moore said:


> Hi Ed. How is Bertha doing today. Sincerely hope to hear she's better.


No. She wont eat or drink.
However, she also seems no worse and I don't know why.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> No. She wont eat or drink.
> However, she also seems no worse and I don't know why.


Very sorry to hear there's no improvement. Do you mean she's in 'coma?' if so I may put it. I really do hope that the vets are able to do something for her, and that she *gets better soon*.

_Hope _is the last thing to die, so don't give up hope, Ed.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> No. She wont eat or drink.
> However, she also seems no worse and I don't know why.


Very sorry to hear there's no improvement. Do you mean she's in 'coma?' if so I may put it. I really do hope that the vets are able to do something for her, and that she *gets better soon*.

_Hope _is the last thing to die, so don't give up hope, Ed.


----------



## Gillian M

Sorry for having posted twice by mistake.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Gillian Moore said:


> Very sorry to hear there's no improvement. Do you mean she's in 'coma?' if so I may put it. I really do hope that the vets are able to do something for her, and that she *gets better soon*.
> 
> _Hope _is the last thing to die, so don't give up hope, Ed.


No. She's aware. She looks around. Looks at me and sometime even moves a little. Her head moves quite a bit.
Hope is not the last thing to die..........Bertha is.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> No. She's aware. She looks around. Looks at me and sometime even moves a little. Her head moves quite a bit.
> Hope is not the last thing to die..........Bertha is.


Ed. The only thing I can think of that you haven't done yet. (Other than going into deep costly medical test). Is to force her to exercise. See if it gets the system going again. The only way I can see to force exercise is swimming in deep water. Even then she may refuse a sink like a lead balloon. Just a thought.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> No. She's aware. She looks around. Looks at me and sometime even moves a little. Her head moves quite a bit.
> Hope is not the last thing to die..........Bertha is.


You've done all you can, I think.

Wishes for a speedy recovery, Bertha!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I did dunk her in deep water but I chickened out and pulled her back up.
She sometimes won't even bother to raise her head.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> I did dunk her in deep water but I chickened out and pulled her back up.
> She sometimes won't even bother to raise her head.


Cluck cluck . How about sit her plastron on a upside down bucket in water, with water upto her neck. So she can move her legs in water.


----------



## leigti

ZEROPILOT said:


> I did dunk her in deep water but I chickened out and pulled her back up.
> She sometimes won't even bother to raise her head.


See if you can give her just enough support to keep her head above water and see if she'll do anything.


----------



## Pearly

I maybe "beating a dead horse" here, but just thought of something else. One of my babies was little too young when we got him and was not eating very well at all. I was trying all kinds of things and finally he took to greens, fruit, soaked mazuri, all pureed in little blender. I started rotating greens, fruits, veggies, protein and would put fresh flowers whole as a treat in front of their hides. They would happily nibble on them. Right now I have sprouted squash, wheat grass and radish coming up in their enclosure. I have a feeling anything I plant there will grow like gang busters, with warmth and humidity plus the lights. I am surprised very frequently with how adventurous those RF babies are when it comes to trying different things. They for sure love new things. I have not had a chance to research that probiotic or alternative for Bertha. Lets remember that her round of antibiotic very likely wiped out her good gut bacteria and with little to no intake she may have a hard time rebuilding her flora. Those microorganisms are what keeps us alive. It's not just about out gut (appetites, pooping etc), it's about keeping all the bad things in check. Kinda like keeping fish, you have to cycle the tank (lots of work before you get that fine balance) then once you populate your substrate, filters with good bacteria, you can switch to the maintenance mode. Bertha maybe "cycling her tank" now. At least thats what I choose to hope for.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

For three days now, she HAS nibbled some lettuce. I wasn't sure at first, but it's now more obvious.
maybe it's the gut re establishing itself. I'll see.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> For three days now, she HAS nibbled some lettuce. I wasn't sure at first, but it's now more obvious.
> maybe it's the gut re establishing itself. I'll see.


That is a good step ahead isn't it?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Gillian Moore said:


> That is a good step ahead isn't it?


A baby step. But a good one, yes.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> A baby step. But a good one, yes.


But better than nothing is it not?


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> For three days now, she HAS nibbled some lettuce. I wasn't sure at first, but it's now more obvious.
> maybe it's the gut re establishing itself. I'll see.


She is Queen Bertha after all.
Queens nibble, they don't gulp.


----------



## johnandjade

hi ed, hope you are well. hows queen b been, any change?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Yes and no. Although she still isn't eating. She walked about eight feet to climb into her water dish. Later she walked about 12 feet and got back inside of her house. I don't know where this occasional energy comes from or why.....


----------



## johnandjade

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yes and no. Although she still isn't eating. She walked about eight feet to climb into her water dish. Later she walked about 12 feet and got back inside of her house. I don't know where this occasional energy comes from or why.....




as long is it keeps coming


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She must be powered by solar energy.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

I dreamed nearly as much about Queen Bertha when I was away as I did about Tidgy.
This is important.


----------



## leigti

Nobody's going to live long enough.


----------



## leigti

I'm sorry, I posted that on the wrong thread. I'm very very sorry. I meant it as a smart Alec response to titties dad saying he won't live long enough to get and aldabra artists.


----------



## meech008

leigti said:


> I'm sorry, I posted that on the wrong thread. I'm very very sorry. I meant it as a smart Alec response to titties dad saying he won't live long enough to get and aldabra artists.


Who's dad?!


----------



## leigti

meech008 said:


> Who's dad?!


Tidgy's I guess Siri didn't understand what I said.


----------



## Angel Carrion

leigti said:


> Tidgy's I guess Siri didn't understand what I said.


PFFFFFFTAAAAHAHAHAAAA!!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I'm not sure that a tortoise has ever been in my dreams.
Nightmares maybe.
No updates on Bertha. The same.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

leigti said:


> Tidgy's I guess Siri didn't understand what I said.


Hmmmmm!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

For the past few days she's been getting around. Not just moving but walking..
And....today she ate some mulberry, romaine, hibiscus and begonia salad. The same as the others ate today.....


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> For the past few days she's been getting around. Not just moving but walking..
> And....today she ate some mulberry, romaine, hibiscus and begonia salad. The same as the others ate today.....


Wow!!!
I should say WOW!!!!!!
Hurray, she is such a clever and good girl.
I am delighted, it looks like she's made it.


----------



## Robertchrisroph




----------



## ZEROPILOT

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Wow!!!
> I should say WOW!!!!!!
> Hurray, she is such a clever and good girl.
> I am delighted, it looks like she's made it.


You think?


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> You think?


Well, I hope.
Hope springs eternal, and this is the best she's been for a long, long time.


----------



## Merrick

ZEROPILOT said:


> For the past few days she's been getting around. Not just moving but walking..
> And....today she ate some mulberry, romaine, hibiscus and begonia salad. The same as the others ate today.....


i am so happy to hear this now have to come over sometime and see the beauti back in action


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I just checked and she ate EVERYTHING I photographed except one flower. I gave her a second plate full of endive and strawberry leaves.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> I just checked and she ate EVERYTHING I photographed except one flower. I gave her a second plate full of endive and strawberry leaves.


yaaaaaaaayyyy!!!!!!!!!!
Making up for lost time.


----------



## leigti

It sounds like maybe she has turned a corner. I'm very glad to hear this.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She ate two plates.
Her day to day changes in behavior are puzzling. 
But this time there will be no veterinary or any other type of interference.
I'll let her eat and get strong etc on her own...


----------



## mike taylor

That's awesome ! I was losing hope.


----------



## Odin's Gma

ZEROPILOT said:


> For the past few days she's been getting around. Not just moving but walking..
> And....today she ate some mulberry, romaine, hibiscus and begonia salad. The same as the others ate today.....


Best news ever!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

So was I Mike.
She is so bizarre.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Maybe her gut bacteria is restored?


----------



## mike taylor

Sounds like it . If that's the case feed her poop from your other reds . That should fix that problem .


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

mike taylor said:


> Sounds like it . If that's the case feed her poop from your other reds . That should fix that problem .


Yuuuummmyyyyy!!!!!


----------



## mike taylor

Haha


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I'll bet it still beats my X wife's cooking!


----------



## mike taylor

If your x wife's cook was as bad as eating poop I think you made the right decision getting a divorce. I would have ran screaming after the first bite . haha


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Today is Mazuri day, but ill also include a plate of greenery and see what she prefers...One or maybe both.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Looking back, a few days ago, I found a sliver of something green hanging from her mouth and a lot of her pens plants are missing. I thought trampled and plowed under, but maybe she's been eating on her own for a while already? (I have no way of knowing how much of the plants got eaten vs trampled.)


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> Looking back, a few days ago, I found a sliver of something green hanging from her mouth and a lot of her pens plants are missing. I thought trampled and plowed under, but maybe she's been eating on her own for a while already? (I have no way of knowing how much of the plants got eaten vs trampled.)


Sneaky lot they are.
But even trampled is good, it shows a level of activity.


----------



## stojanovski92113

I'm also very happy to hear about the positive outcome coming a long  Go Bertha!!!


----------



## Angel Carrion

I'm having the same issue with my one boxie. He's overcoming an illness, and I can't tell if he is eating his food, or if it's just being trampled and only looks like some is missing. I try and watch, but it's like he knows so he won't bother with the food while I'm watching. Generally he doesn't leave the hide he's chosen while I'm watching, either. I'll just find him somewhere else when next I check on him, sometimes.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I've owned Bertha for over a year and I've seen her eat maybe twice.


----------



## Lyn W

Fantastic news Ed, hope she goes from strength to strength!


----------



## johnandjade

Angel Carrion said:


> I'm having the same issue with my one boxie. He's overcoming an illness, and I can't tell if he is eating his food, or if it's just being trampled and only looks like some is missing. I try and watch, but it's like he knows so he won't bother with the food while I'm watching. Generally he doesn't leave the hide he's chosen while I'm watching, either. I'll just find him somewhere else when next I check on him, sometimes.




an old smart phone can be used as a webcam, perhaps it may be an option?


----------



## Jodie

I am keeping my fingers crossed for Bertha and for you. Things seem to be looking up a bit.


----------



## newCH

Go Bertha ! ! !


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I don't think she ate today but there is an unusually cold rain coming down from the approaching tropical storm.


----------



## leigti

Are you going to bring your tortoises inside for the storm? I've never been in a tropical storm, but it sure sounds like it's going to rain like crazy there.


----------



## Angel Carrion

johnandjade said:


> an old smart phone can be used as a webcam, perhaps it may be an option?


I have noooo idea how to do that, haha! But I don't have any old smart phones, so that doesn't matter. I've been thinking about putting in a camera, though, because I think someone "visits" my turtle pen in the middle of the night (human) and I don't like it. I bring them in at night since it's too cold out now, but still.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I have an enclosed back sunroom that I CAN bring everyone into if I need to.
I don't have any human intruders. The neighbors know better.


----------



## Angel Carrion

ZEROPILOT said:


> I have an enclosed back sunroom that I CAN bring everyone into if I need to.
> I don't have any human intruders. The neighbors know better.


I'm surprised my neighbors don't know better, considering most if not all know I have my big rottie and super aggressive-against-intruders/trespassers Pitbull. Plus most think I'm crazy with a giant weapons storage stockpile. (Shhhh 
But I do have at least one that is a crack head or heroine junkie, so I guess he doesn't exactly connect the dots...


----------



## Angel Carrion

And FYI; neither dog is ever around the turtles. I don't even do supervised meetings. The dogs outside lead/tethers cannot reach the turtle pen, and inside the door is closed at all times to the room with Tucker's hospital tank and the overnight bins.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> I have an enclosed back sunroom that I CAN bring everyone into if I need to.
> I don't have any human intruders. The neighbors know better.


Just caught up on your thread. Sounds like she is getting better, And yes my Dawn was right all along. Leave her be and she will servive. For once I'm glad she is right lol


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She has decided to not eat again.
Whatever....


----------



## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> She has decided to not eat again.
> Whatever....


Has she pooped Ed?


----------



## RedFootedLove

we all hope she makes it


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> She has decided to not eat again.
> Whatever....


See what happens tomorrow.


----------



## Angel Carrion

ZEROPILOT said:


> She has decided to not eat again.
> Whatever....


Well she ate quite a big meal. I'm sure she's just digesting.


----------



## DawnH

Anyfoot said:


> Just caught up on your thread. Sounds like she is getting better, And yes my Dawn was right all along. Leave her be and she will servive. For once I'm glad she is right lol



I can pretty much tell you that most women named Dawn are pretty damn smart. Witty too!


----------



## DawnH

(... and so glad that stubborn ol' bird ... er... tort... is still with us.)


----------



## leigti

ZEROPILOT said:


> She has decided to not eat again.
> Whatever....


I think she's just playing with you now


----------



## Anyfoot

DawnH said:


> I can pretty much tell you that most women named Dawn are pretty damn smart. Witty too!


Ha-ha. Made me laugh. Good start to my day. You passed on a good mood to me. Thank you.


----------



## Gillian M

Hi Ed, hope you are well.

Tell me, how is Bertha these days? Sincerely hope she's making progress and getting better.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Lyn W said:


> Has she pooped Ed?


It's hard to tell. She's on mulch right now for the summer.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Yesterday she was back "ON". Eating two plates of green matter and two chunks of watermelon and a slice of Shitake mushroom. She also ate a hibiscus flower. She had never before eaten one of those. 
I had stopped trying to give her the laxative applied to her food or anything at all. 
No more meds.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yesterday she was back "ON". Eating two plates of green matter and two chunks of watermelon and a slice of Shitake mushroom. She also ate a hibiscus flower. She had never before eaten one of those.
> I had stopped trying to give her the laxative applied to her food or anything at all.
> No more meds.


It seems from your words that she _is _getting better, right? Let's keep hoping for the best.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Gillian Moore said:


> It seems from your words that she _is _getting better, right? Let's keep hoping for the best.


It's funny because I simply have no clue at this point.
The scenario sure feels familiar.............


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> It's funny because I simply have no clue at this point.
> The scenario sure feels familiar.............


That sounds odd. What do the vets have to say?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Frankly the vets had their shot....and collectively blew it and my $2,000 plus.
No more vets for us.
I'll consult a Haitian witch doctor first.
Sunshine, good food and patience is what I use now.
And it seems to have the same result.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Frankly the vets had their shot....and collectively blew it and my $2,000 plus.
> No more vets for us.
> I'll consult a Haitian witch doctor first.
> Sunshine, good food and patience is what I use now.
> And it seems to have the same result.


Wow! $2,000 is an incredible amount. Those vets probably make more money than doctors in the West, don't they? 

Well, good luck to you and BERTHA.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

If any of it had done anything good, I wouldn't be half as P.Oed.
I'm paying them to learn how to treat tortoises?


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> If any of it had done anything good, I wouldn't be half as P.Oed.
> I'm paying them to learn how to treat tortoises?


Know what you mean.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

This morning I placed her out in the yard. 
Let's see if she gets inspired and goes for a walk....


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> This morning I placed her out in the yard.
> Let's see if she gets inspired and goes for a walk....


Good luck. And if it's nice and sunny, she might be attracted to sunlight


----------



## ZEROPILOT

It's pretty nice outside. The storm front sucked out the moisture, it seems.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> It's pretty nice outside. The storm front sucked out the moisture, it seems.


Here it's still nice and sunny, though temp. is beginning to drop. Maximum temp for today is ONLY 29 degrees C, which is nothing.

Oli is on the balcony sunbathing. He may get tanned.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Today I'll photograph Berthas dinner plate as I set it down and then again when I go pick it up again in two hours.
Hopefully it'll be impressive.


----------



## Odin's Gma

*fingers crossed*


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She is far too shy to be photographed eating.


----------



## Angel Carrion

I'm having the same thing with Splinter. He wasn't eating before at all and I was having to force feed him but after a second round of antibiotics and using Repta + Boost for a week, I stopped force feeding him. He was showing signs of gaining some of his energy back, though his muscles have wasted away quite a bit because of his lack of movement. But he was moving, and I started to notice that it looked like a piece or two of the food I leave out for him all the time was missing, though I wasn't sure yet if it was just being trampled over. Then this past Friday, I had him in his kiddy pool soaking and semi-swimming to help promote muscle regrowth, and after having a niiiice big poop (he hadn't pooped in almost a week and I was starting to get worried), he attempted to eat a few pieces of the turtle chow I had floating in the water with him. So I took him out of the pool and laid three night crawlers in front of him. He went to TOWN! Ate two immediately and took a bite out of the third, but I think my excitement worried him because he then carefully walked to his pen and tried to figure out how to get back in. So I picked him up and placed him back in his pen, and he walked off a little then took a well deserved rest. Yesterday he ate half a strawberry on his own after a soak before my dog scared him by barking and made him walk over to his pen again and try to climb in again. So I picked him up and placed two strawberries near him and walked away.

I'm pretty sure Queen Bertha is most likely recovering the same way Splinter is; scarfing food down one day, resting and digesting the next. Our buddies are getting there. Hope is strong and unwavering at this point


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Today I'll photograph Berthas dinner plate as I set it down and then again when I go pick it up again in two hours.
> Hopefully it'll be impressive.


I'm sure it will be. Can't wait to see her.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I came home to find her lying on her side inside her house. I righted her and placed this plate in front of her.
I got out my lawn mower, started mowing and CAUGHT her eating. Half a plate in ten minutes!
Crap. The picture of her eating didn't come out!
I'm going outside for a LIVE shot...
Even better. She's sitting in an almost empty plate with mushroom in her mouth.
(This plate has been refilled once already!)
That's a lot of food.
This is good.
I'll try to forget that she was on her side because it didn't seem to bother HER......


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> I came home to find her lying on her side inside her house. I righted her and placed this plate in front of her.
> I got out my lawn mower, started mowing and CAUGHT her eating. Half a plate in ten minutes!
> Crap. The picture of her eating didn't come out!
> I'm going outside for a LIVE shot...
> Even better. She's sitting in an almost empty plate with mushroom in her mouth.
> (This plate has been refilled once already!)
> That's a lot of food.
> This is good.
> I'll try to forget that she was on her side because it didn't seem to bother HER......


Oh, she looks so cute! GOD bless. Ed, I'm no expert in this field, but she does not look at all sick-knock on wood.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> I came home to find her lying on her side inside her house. I righted her and placed this plate in front of her.
> I got out my lawn mower, started mowing and CAUGHT her eating. Half a plate in ten minutes!
> Crap. The picture of her eating didn't come out!
> I'm going outside for a LIVE shot...
> Even better. She's sitting in an almost empty plate with mushroom in her mouth.
> (This plate has been refilled once already!)
> That's a lot of food.
> This is good.
> I'll try to forget that she was on her side because it didn't seem to bother HER......


She's obviously getting active if you found her on her side. How big an area is she in at the moment.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

The "sick" pen is L shaped. And over 10 feet long X 2 feet wide. The house on the end is about a 24" square.
And it "rains" twice a day thanks to a misting system on timer.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Last night I was informed by my wife that she has been sneaking Bertha Hibiscus leaves and flowers. Even though I have repeatedly asked that she NOT feed Bertha anything so that I can monitor her food intake.
So It is likely that she has eaten more than I thought and for longer than I had thought. (Since I have never seen leftover evidence) Yesterday was day four then of her regained interest in food.
She is eating everything that I offer, except strangely, banana.


----------



## Anyfoot

Sounds promising this time ed. She will be wanting to roam your yard soon. 
Nice to know you wife has a soft spot for your torts too.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Last night I was informed by my wife that she has been sneaking Bertha Hibiscus leaves and flowers. Even though I have repeatedly asked that she NOT feed Bertha anything so that I can monitor her food intake.
> So It is likely that she has eaten more than I thought and for longer than I had thought. (Since I have never seen leftover evidence) Yesterday was day four then of her regained interest in food.
> She is eating everything that I offer, except strangely, banana.


This really is good news. I for one, am getting more and more optimistic. Good luck Bertha!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

This thread may be wrapping up. 
If it does I'll update.
Today the queen ate two plates of Romaine and broccoli rabbi with hibiscus leaves and then another plate of Romaine with a piece of grilled chicken and she didn't care that I watched and took photos.
She is really doing well.
Walking. Eating and doing it all in normal fashion!
(That's not poop on the plate. It's chicken.)


----------



## ZEROPILOT

You know what may have cured her?
NOT going to the vet.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> You know what may have cured her?
> NOT going to the vet.


No stress, nature took its course maybe. We will never know. But, so what. She lives and that's all that matters. Well chuffed for you.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

I didn't get any alerts for this thread since Saturday! 
Or somehow, I missed them.
So, so happy.
Thread to be closed after well wishes ?


----------



## Lyn W

Tidgy's Dad said:


> I didn't get any alerts for this thread since Saturday!
> Or somehow, I missed them.
> So, so happy.
> Thread to be closed after well wishes ?


No I didn't get any alerts either so I am absolutely delighted to hear all this!
I really hope Bertha has made a full recovery this time.
Brilliant, Ed!


----------



## Carol S

I am so happy that Bertha is eating again and is on the road to a full recovery.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She ate a third plate of food. Sat in her pool for a while and walked back inside her night house. Unbelievable!


----------



## Aunt Caffy

ZEROPILOT said:


> You know what may have cured her?
> NOT going to the vet.


I'd say it was a lot of tender loving care by her doting daddy that did it.


----------



## 4jean

Definitely the tender loving care and maybe all of us sending her positive thoughts! So happy Queen Bertha is acting like a tortoise again!!


----------



## Amanda81

ZEROPILOT said:


> The "sick" pen is L shaped. And over 10 feet long X 2 feet wide. The house on the end is about a 24" square.
> And it "rains" twice a day thanks to a misting system on timer.


 Apparently she has a roommate that likes the "rain" as well. That little lizard seems pretty content.


----------



## mike taylor

I think it was stress maybe .


----------



## Gillian M

Oh Ed, I am so, so happy to hear that. GREAT! 

I think you may be right: sorry to say it but vets (like doctors) have become businessmen; no mercy, no compassion. _Your _care might have helped Bertha more than vets.


----------



## Gillian M

Dear Bertha,


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Thanks Gillian.
Check your P.M.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I think my vet is a great lady and maybe a first class bird vet.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Thanks Gillian.
> Check your P.M.


I did and I answered you. 

Thanks for everything Ed.

(I know I am getting you-and Lyn-bored to death with those 'thank you' words).


----------



## Robertchrisroph

I wish bertha gets her picture in the calendar this year. She and Ed deserve it. wonderful news


----------



## johnandjade

long live the queen


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Queen B continues to rally...


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Queen B continues to rally...


It will be interesting to see what weight she is when she's back to full good health. I've forgot, what weight did you say she went down to at her lowest?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Anyfoot said:


> It will be interesting to see what weight she is when she's back to full good health. I've forgot, what weight did you say she went down to at her lowest?


I'd have to check, but it was under 8 pounds. Her same sized sister, Ruby is over 18 pounds. I haven't weighed Bertha in a while.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

As you can see, she is eating like she's never seen food before. (Mouth chomping wildly.)
When I get home, she is out searching for food.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'd have to check, but it was under 8 pounds. Her same sized sister, Ruby is over 18 pounds. I haven't weighed Bertha in a while.


Just looked back and she was down to 8.8 at one point.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Anyfoot said:


> Just looked back and she was down to 8.8 at one point.


I always have to look back. My memory isn't very good.
She's still not really heavy, but she is packing pounds back on.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> As you can see, she is eating like she's never seen food before. (Mouth chomping wildly.)
> When I get home, she is out searching for food.


It's good news ed. You needed some for once. I'd be very excited. 
To be honest, I think it's all down to your wife sneaking hibiscus in all this time. Lol. . Ha ha. Joking. Could she have starved off an infection. As a child my mum would tell us not to eat when we had bad stomach bugs. All you are doing is feeding your bacteria she'd say.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Anyfoot said:


> It's good news ed. You needed some for once. I'd be very excited.
> To be honest, I think it's all down to your wife sneaking hibiscus in all this time. Lol. . Ha ha. Joking. Could she have starved off an infection. As a child my mum would tell us not to eat when we had bad stomach bugs. All you are doing is feeding your bacteria she'd say.


I wasn't trying to make her hungry. I was trying to watch and look for any sign that she was eating what I gave her.
The vet prescribed antibiotics really threw her back for a few weeks, but she has emerged a new tortoise. It must have killed every bacteria, including ones used for digestion. 
I still don't see a lot of pooping going on, but I never see much with my other five either......Lucky me?


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> I wasn't trying to make her hungry. I was trying to watch and look for any sign that she was eating what I gave her.
> The vet prescribed antibiotics really threw her back for a few weeks, but she has emerged a new tortoise. It must have killed every bacteria, including ones used for digestion.
> I still don't see a lot of pooping going on, but I never see much with my other five either......Lucky me?


Ha, I'm not so lucky, constantly picking poops up. It's all good news now.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

The thing is that it seems that most of them like to poo in the swimming pools. That I change out and clean almost everyday.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> The thing is that it seems that most of them like to poo in the swimming pools. That I change out and clean almost everyday.


She's a nice tort BTW. How big is she?


----------



## ZEROPILOT

About 13"-14"


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> About 13"-14"


Nice size, I need to get some of the flowers you feed.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Hibiscus.
Flowers And Leaves Make Up About 1/3 of The diet. I've been giving Bertha more Romaine for the water content.....


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Hibiscus.
> Flowers And Leaves Make Up About 1/3 of The diet. I've been giving Bertha more Romaine for the water content.....


Really. I assume they grow all year round in your climate.


----------



## Jodie

My morning started not so good at work, but seeing this thread has turned it around. I so like happy endings and am very glad she is making a come back. Well done by both of you.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Anyfoot said:


> Really. I assume they grow all year round in your climate.


They do indeed. Far faster than they can be harvested.
But they are very fiberous when passed and Bertha is still getting over her issue(S)


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Jodie said:


> My morning started not so good at work, but seeing this thread has turned it around. I so like happy endings and am very glad she is making a come back. Well done by both of you.


Jodie, if this IS the last chapter in the book of Bertha, I'll be truly happy. Thanks.
This transformation is really remarkable.


----------



## Lyn W

I am so happy it looks like Queen B has turned over a new romaine leaf!
Hope she goes from strength to strength.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She's out there walking the yard and eating weeds today.
Nice!
Her legs look stronger.


----------



## gingerbee

Wow this only gets better and better! Congrats to you!!


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Queen B continues to rally...


Hi Ed. Bertha seems to be doing very well, touch wood. Congrats, and keep up the good work.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Yes. Hopefully she won't suddenly "die" again!
Even joking about it scares me.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yes. Hopefully she won't suddenly "die" again!
> Even joking about it scares me.


Oh no......please don't think in such a negative way, _even _when joking.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Twice now she has rallied and crashed. I'm just not trying to get my hopes up very high.
This IS the healthiest she has seemed since I bought her. She has never actively been out looking for food and then eaten so violently. It's great to see.
She might yet get to be placed back into the group. We'll see.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Twice now she has rallied and crashed. I'm just not trying to get my hopes up very high.
> This IS the healthiest she has seemed since I bought her. She has never actively been out looking for food and then eaten so violently. It's great to see.
> She might yet get to be placed back into the group. We'll see.


Excellent!


----------



## Kenno

Ed, I've been in distant lands for over a month. I was almost afraid to check on Bertha! 
You've done everything right and I hope this thread goes away now. 
Congratulations!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Friday meal. Mazuri and Romaine. 100% eaten.
Second helping of only Romaine...still eating.


----------



## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Friday meal. Mazuri and Romaine. 100% eaten.
> Second helping of only Romaine...still eating.


Wow, she's really building herself back up. This has been an amazing story. With thankfully a good ending.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Anyfoot said:


> Wow, she's really building herself back up. This has been an amazing story. With thankfully a good ending.


I hope this is the second to last chapter.
The ending would be death or she is so well that she leaves the isolation pen and gets treated like a normal tortoise.
Since she seems to be immortal, I honestly suspect that she will soon be nearly normal and can maintain it.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

At any rate, I'd like to again thank EVERYONE for your help and support.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> At any rate, I'd like to again thank EVERYONE for your help and support.


It's been a bloody nerve shattering roller coaster, but, in a bizarre way, i'm glad i shared it with you and Bertha, Ed.


----------



## mike taylor

Bertha is back jack !


----------



## Gillian M

Gillian Moore said:


> Excellent!


Hi Ed. Just sent you a PM. Please confirm receipt as soon as possible. Thanks.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Gillian Moore said:


> Hi Ed. Just sent you a PM. Please confirm receipt as soon as possible. Thanks.


Got it!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Saturday 9-5-15
It's raining and she's eating. Happy to report.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Saturday 9-5-15
> It's raining and she's eating. Happy to report.


Great! Am so happy to see Bertha eat. 

5th September 2015......a day to remember, is it not?


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

Remember, remember,
The 5th of September
Bertha is eating a lot.
I see no good need
Why Bertha's new greed.
Should ever be forgot.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Caught eating cactus...
She now eats everything that the others do and she is quite strong.
I'll watch her for one more week and if she remains healthy, she will go outside into her new much larger home.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I guess I'll then request that a moderator again change the post title and that will be that...


----------



## peasinapod

Woohoo! I am so happy for you!


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Caught eating cactus...
> She now eats everything that the others do and she is quite strong.
> I'll watch her for one more week and if she remains healthy, she will go outside into her new much larger home.


She looking great - touch wood.


----------



## Pearly

Excellent news! She is a tough girl!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I still haven't seen a poop.
But it could easily go unseen in her mulch and soil.
She sits in her house now looking out and comes forward when I pass by to see what I have..


----------



## gingerbee

Wow she's a trooper!!


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> I still haven't seen a poop.
> But it could easily go unseen in her mulch and soil.
> She sits in her house now looking out and comes forward when I pass by to see what I have..


Take it easy Ed. As you mentioned, she might have pooped. Don't worry too much. Or it might take her time to poop. Don't worry too much. At least she's recovered in an incredible way - touch wood.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Sunday. Eating and active.
I think this matches her record of eleven days of eating in a row.
Fingers crossed.


----------



## Jodie

I am so happy for you and her. It makes me anxious every time I see a new post on this thread, so I can only imagine how you must feel every time you go check on her. Certainly seems to have beat whatever it was that almost killed her. We may never know what exactly helped her recover, but at least you don't have to wonder if you had only tried.... Way to stick with her. I know it was defeating at times, but you prevailed. I will knock on wood as soon as I post this, and continue to send my best. I love happy endings.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

45 pages of this.
That's a lot of support for Bertha and venting for me.
Honestly, I was about ready to humanely end her life only about a month ago.
I had already planned it.
Now look at her.
Unbelievable.
Thanks again to everyone.
I'm about ready to wrap this thing up.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Sunday. Eating and active.
> I think this matches her record of eleven days of eating in a row.
> Fingers crossed.


Good luck Bertha and good luck Ed.

Everyone is so happy for you as well as *BERTHA*.


----------



## Lyn W

Thank you for sharing all of this with us Ed, I have sometimes dreaded looking at this thread in case it wasn't good news.
It just goes to show we should never give up unless all hope is lost, but even then, Bertha has shown us that miracles do happen.
I really hope Bertha makes a full and lasting recovery so that she can go back to doing what torts do best - by being a tort!!
Good health Queen B!


----------



## DawnH

ZEROPILOT said:


> Saturday 9-5-15
> It's raining and she's eating. Happy to report.



This makes my eyes leak, Ed. I am beyond thrilled for her and just amazed at how you have had the strength to trudge through all this last month. You have went above and beyond and never quite gave up hope, even when you were feeling hopeless. You are my hero! She is lucky to have you, what a VERY lucky little girl!!

Love and hugs to you, my friend!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Thanks


----------



## Foursteels

That is one great looking tortoise. It's nice to see people who care for their pets as you do. Many many people would not have taken care of your sick pet the way you did, especially with the expense it was for you. Hope she stays healthy from here on out.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Check her out. Foraging in the yard and eating a clipped hibiscus branch.
Her legs are still wobbly but getting stronger...


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She might be the healthiest dead tortoise ever.


----------



## wellington

Wow, she is amazing. So glad to see her eating and doing well.


----------



## Pearly

Look at her! Nothing short of a miracle! I'm so happy to see these kinds of posts from you!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

The eyes of an alert tortoise.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> The eyes of an alert tortoise.


Bertha seems to be doing very well. Congrats to both of you.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> The eyes of an alert tortoise.


----------



## gingerbee

Wonderful to see Miss Bertha so well!!


----------



## Angel Carrion

ZEROPILOT said:


> The eyes of an alert tortoise.


 She's like, "Yo! Where's the endless supply of food, man?! FEED ME! Look into my eye, let it hypnotize you! BRING YOUR QUEEN MORE FOOD!" Haha


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I've only been feeding food high in water content to help her out. Today will be Mazuri mush with cactus pad.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> I've only been feeding food high in water content to help her out. Today will be Mazuri mush with cactus pad.


Yuuuummmmyyyyy!!!!!!!
My personal favourite.
(says Tidgy).


----------



## Pearly

Omg! She looks wonderful!!!! What a reward for all what you've been through!


----------



## Yvonne G

You can feel very proud, Ed. You put in a lot of hard work to get to this point. If I had just now seen these pictures I would no realize there had been anything wrong with this animal. She looks great.


----------



## Gillian M

Pearly said:


> Look at her! Nothing short of a miracle! I'm so happy to see these kinds of posts from you!


Definitely, miracles do take place like that in BETRHA's case), though it's so hard for the person in pain and waiting for relief to believe that.


----------



## Gillian M

Hi Ed, hi......BERTHA! 

And,


Ed!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Thanks. Again.


----------



## Kenno

Bertha is a beauty! How old is she? I'd like to see more pictures!


----------



## johnandjade

remember to vote for the queen in the calendar comp  , she deserves it


----------



## Gillian M

Kenno said:


> Bertha is a beauty! How old is she? I'd like to see more pictures!


I would as well.


----------



## Gillian M

johnandjade said:


> remember to vote for the queen in the calendar comp  , she deserves it


I bet she'll win. Just wait and see.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Unfortunately it's a photo contest and not a popularity contest.
So while Bertha has won over a lot of hearts, my photo skills and equipment will be a serious issue.
I've been taking photos. Lots of them. I'm hoping to snap a nice one just by chance.
I WILL enter her.
Thanks for the support!
She is still doing so well.
I'm very happy to see her little face every day.
Like a new tortoise.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Unfortunately it's a photo contest and not a popularity contest.
> So while Bertha has won over a lot of hearts, my photo skills and equipment will be a serious issue.
> I've been taking photos. Lots of them. I'm hoping to snap a nice one just by chance.
> I WILL enter her.
> Thanks for the support!
> She is still doing so well.
> I'm very happy to see her little face every day.
> Like a new tortoise.


Good morning Ed. So pleased to hear that Bertha has fully recovered and doing so well.


----------



## 4jean

Congratulations! I am so happy for you. I like so many others have been following this from the beginning. Hip Hip Hooray for Bertha!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Thanks. She lives out in the yard now most of the time.
I'm considering placing her back in with the herd.
I just don't want to give her any reason to get Ill again.


----------



## Gillian M

Hello Ed. Hope you are well.

How's Bertha doing today? Sincerely hope she's well. Take good care of her.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

She is still doing very well.
It's amazing how much she can eat. And her willingness to eat anything i give her!
I'm still trying to get a good photo for the calendar.........


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> She is still doing very well.
> It's amazing how much she can eat. And her willingness to eat anything i give her!
> I'm still trying to get a good photo for the calendar.........


Pleased to hear she's doing so well.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

I can now say that Bertha has now reached almost 100% healthy.
This afternoon she took her first normal poop since she came to me over a year ago.
She eats, walks and poops all on her own and this weekend she will leave her isolation pen and will slowly be added back to the herd.
I have requested a thread title change and thanks so much everyone for all of the support.
Photo is of her today poop.
Normally I wouldn't post a photo of poo.
She has come such a long way. 
I'm attempting to take a nice enough photo in the hopes of trying to get her into our calendar.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

What a jolly lovely poop!!
Hurrrraaahhh!!!!
Is it only tortoise owners who get so excited about poop on occasion ?
I might start a 'Photo of your Tortoise Poop' Thread.


----------



## johnandjade

long live the queen!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Tidgy's Dad said:


> What a jolly lovely poop!!
> Hurrrraaahhh!!!!
> Is it only tortoise owners who get so excited about poop on occasion ?
> I might start a 'Photo of your Tortoise Poop' Thread.


I'm proud to finally have an entry for the poop thread.
Thanks Adam.


----------



## wellington

Per OP request, the title has been changed. For very good reasons, she is doing as the title says, GREAT. WOOHOO.


----------



## ZEROPILOT

Yes. The thread has wrapped up.
She was sick. Very sick. In surgery. Better. Worse. Dead. Not dead but dying. Not dying but not eating. Eating but not walking. Walking but not pooping...........And CURED!
What an ordeal.
Thanks from both of us for everything!
Done!


----------



## 4jean

What a lovely poop! I'm sure there are many more to come!


----------



## Pearly

4jean said:


> What a lovely poop! I'm sure there are many more to come!


Hahah! looking at Bertha's "caca" picture makes me as happy and proud like on days when my babies made their first ones in their little potties I'm very happy that your ordeal is finally over.


----------



## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yes. The thread has wrapped up.
> She was sick. Very sick. In surgery. Better. Worse. Dead. Not dead but dying. Not dying but not eating. Eating but not walking. Walking but not pooping...........And CURED!
> What an ordeal.
> Thanks from both of us for everything!
> Done!


Delighted to hear that the nightmare is finally over.


----------



## Angel Carrion

Long Live Queen Bertha!!!!


----------



## ZEROPILOT

This is maybe the last update:
I've decided that Bertha will live alone for now, but she has been moved into her new pen. It is very large with many hides and shady areas. The move was a total success and she continues to thrive. 
Her walking is also almost normal now.
Now she is just another tortoise. Treated normally. Acting normally.


----------



## stojanovski92113

ZEROPILOT said:


> This is maybe the last update:
> I've decided that Bertha will live alone for now, but she has been moved into her new pen. It is very large with many hides and shady areas. The move was a total success and she continues to thrive.
> Her walking is also almost normal now.
> Now she is just another tortoise. Treated normally. Acting normally.


Great to hear!! Go Bertha!! I'm sure this has been a relief for you!


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## Pearly

That's great! I'm so happy to hear about her positive outcome, and so relieved for you as well. I know what it's like to have a sick pet. I admire your commitment and perseverance. It's such an inspiring story. If you don't mind I'd like to use it as an example when teaching my kids about being responsible pet owners


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## ZEROPILOT

Sure.
I still can't get over seeing her acting all normal.
I never honestly thought it would happen.


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## johnandjade

ZEROPILOT said:


> Sure.
> I still can't get over seeing her acting all normal.
> I never honestly thought it would happen.




she couldn't have done it without you mr ed, you went above and beyond


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## ZEROPILOT

It's equal parts I don't like to fail and good pet ownership.
I'm very stubborn.
(I just spent over a week trying to repair and replace my garage door.)


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## johnandjade

ZEROPILOT said:


> It's equal parts I don't like to fail and good pet ownership.
> I'm very stubborn.
> (I just spent over a week trying to repair and replace my garage door.)




and successful in both!


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## Lyn W

Tidgy's Dad said:


> What a jolly lovely poop!!
> Hurrrraaahhh!!!!
> Is it only tortoise owners who get so excited about poop on occasion ?
> I might start a 'Photo of your Tortoise Poop' Thread.


I second that motion!


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## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'm proud to finally have an entry for the poop thread.
> Thanks Adam.


Three cheers for Bertha!
Poop, poop hooray (x3)


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## Lyn W

Here's to many, many more normal tortoise days for Bertha!
I hope she enjoys her new enclosure.


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## ZEROPILOT

Lyn W said:


> Here's to many, many more normal tortoise days for Bertha!
> I hope she enjoys her new enclosure.


I'm going to ad a pond to it soon.


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## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'm going to ad a pond to it soon.


Nothing but the best for Bertha!
Amazing girl that she is.


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## Tidgy's Dad

Lyn W said:


> I second that motion!


give me a few days!


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## ZEROPILOT

She is in her new, large enclosure and has been doing great. Walking and exploring as I would expect from a healthy tortoise.
Her legs are still stiff when she walks. It looks like the muscle that she lost from not being able to walk for several months has not fully healed. Maybe it wont?
A funny side note is that even now, WEEKS LATER, she still eats as much food as 3 or 4 of my other tortoises and the poops have been monumental.
No more poop photos, sorry.
She is a pleasure to watch and interact with now.


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## ZEROPILOT

Pics of the Queen living a tortoise life!


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## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> Pics of the Queen living a tortoise life!


So good to see!!!
Splendid!!!


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## ZEROPILOT

Thanks. I still haven't gotten over it!
So cool.
See how fixated she is on that Rabbi?


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## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> Thanks. I still haven't gotten over it!
> So cool.
> See how fixated she is on that Rabbi?


?


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## ZEROPILOT

Broccoli Rabbi.
I think it's also called Broccolli Rapini


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## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> Broccoli Rabbi.


Oh, i see, never heard of it, but yes she is hunting it down for sure. 
(was thinking of another kind of Rabbi for a moment.)


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## ZEROPILOT

She's not quite kosher...........


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## ZEROPILOT

Calendar photo winner Queen B


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## Tidgy's Dad

ZEROPILOT said:


> Calendar photo winner Queen B


Yaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Aunt Caffy

ZEROPILOT said:


> Calendar photo winner Queen B


Congratulations to the queen! All hail the queen!


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## Robertchrisroph

Much love and respect.


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## stojanovski92113

ZEROPILOT said:


> Calendar photo winner Queen B


I'm eager to see these pictures posted but they won't load for me...


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## Blakem

Very cool, I like that her picture won, both for the beauty and the story!


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## Pearly

How awesome! She sure is a pretty tortoise! Despite her near-death experience she's carried herself very well! Congratulations to Queen B and her Daddy!


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## ZEROPILOT

Thanks. She is my favorite now and I'm very proud of her.


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## 4jean

To think back to where you've been with her....this is amazing! No tube feeding, and remember when you thought she had passed....it is so great to read/seen ow healthy she has become. Congrats!


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## ZEROPILOT

Queen B has reached the "foot long club".
1-29-16


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## Aunt Caffy

ZEROPILOT said:


> Queen B has reached the "foot long club".
> 1-29-16


Congratulations to the both of you! It's great to see your girl doing so well.


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## Kori5

You're lucky to have each other


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## Pearly

ZEROPILOT said:


> Queen B has reached the "foot long club".
> 1-29-16


Congrats! She's looking faboo!


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## Gillian M

Pleased to hear that Ed!


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## Careym13

Great news!!!


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## Kenno

Looking good,Ed! 
How big could she get?


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## 4jean

Big Bertha is really living up to her name! Great news! She looks fabulous.


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## ZEROPILOT

Kenno said:


> Looking good,Ed!
> How big could she get?


I don't know. I always though that she was actually larger than she is. There is a nursery close by that has four of them that are MUCH larger than Bertha, but I think she is almost done growing. She also weighs a ton.


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## Cheryl Hills

I have went back and read this story from the beginning. You have done a wonderful job with Bertha. Congrats! She has the right dad, otherwise my not be here. I cried reading parts of this. It is very emotional specially when you love animals the way I do. I am so happy she has survived!


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## ZEROPILOT

Thanks, Cheryl.
That means a lot to me.


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## Lyn W

She really is a remarkable tortoise!
All credit to you for persevering Ed.
Long live Queen B!


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## RockChalk

Looking great! Good job! Now if anyone else runs into problems they can refer back to your story for inspiration and tips.


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## ZEROPILOT

Today Queen Bertha and her sister Ruby went to another member with a large herd. @mfishmanm
It was pretty cool seeing those two looking so fantastic and I'm excited for their futures.
What a journey!
Now I have a very manageable four tortoises. And they have a fantastic shot at great lives.


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## 4jean

I hope we will get queen Bertha updates from time to time from her new owner....I feel like I know her....I would miss not hearing about her. I'm sure it was bittersweet to see her go.


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## MPRC

Did you tell him he's required to post constant photo updates? That should be a given....


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## ZEROPILOT

@mfishmanm has promised updates.
He tells me that Bertha and ruby have settled in quite nicely.
I also told him that he should read this Bertha thread.


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## mfishmanm

Hi guys I will posts pictures this weekend and they are doing great


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## 4jean

mfishmanm said:


> Hi guys I will posts pictures this weekend and they are doing great


Hooray! Thank you for keeping this thread going...Big Bertha is quite a celebrity.


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## mfishmanm

Yea @ZEROPILOT filled me in on bet celebrity haha I'm just happy I got to see them up for adoption in time i know I can give them the best home I'll post some pics of my reds now and update with Bertha and ruby over the weekend


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## mfishmanm

my biggest girl


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## mfishmanm




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## mfishmanm

they don't live with the sulcatas i just had some of my sulcatas out grazing in the Redfoot part


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## mfishmanm




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## mfishmanm

Big Bertha enjoying the day I'll post more later


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## 4jean

She looks very happy (and healthy) in her new home. Thanks for the update!


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## Tidgy's Dad

@mfishmanm 
Any new updates ?
I really miss Queen Bertha and had a lot of my heart invested in her too.


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## Pearly

Tidgy's Dad said:


> @mfishmanm
> Any new updates ?
> I really miss Queen Bertha and had a lot of my heart invested in her too.


Me too


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## ZEROPILOT

Thanks for the past updates!
It still feels strange not having her here.
I'm very proud that I was able to save her life.


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## Robertchrisroph

As you should!!! Hold your head high. Wonderful job @ZEROPILOT


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## Toddrickfl1

I haven't been able to read this while thread but I've skimmed thru, but what an amazing story of Big Bertha!


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## ZEROPILOT

Toddrickfl1 said:


> I haven't been able to read this while thread but I've skimmed thru, but what an amazing story of Big Bertha!


That was an experience.
A sick $200 tortoise that required over $1,800 to heal. That sold for $150.
But I'm very proud of the entire thing.
And she lived happily ever after......


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## Toddrickfl1

ZEROPILOT said:


> That was an experience.
> A sick $200 tortoise that required over $1,800 to heal. That sold for $150.
> But I'm very proud of the entire thing.
> And she lived happily ever after......


I must say, I admire how you were able to keep your composure, and at times sense of humor during such trying times. The will is stronger than any medicine and you and Bertha both seem to have a very strong one. I'm glad it ended well!


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## ZEROPILOT

Also a big thanks to Dr.K at Broward avian and exotic.


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## ZEROPILOT

From a sick tortoise. To a dead tortoise. Then just sick again and eventually a calendar girl that now lives a great life.


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