# Coconut Oil



## glitch4200

Hi everyone, so after reading a couple threads about conditioners for the shell of our tortoises I might have a good debatable topic here. I decided to do a little research about cold pressed extra virgin coconut oil. After carefully considering my sources. I have concluded the following: this oil is antibacterial, anti fungal, anti viral, anti inflammatory, unique fatty acids that penatrate to the micro level quickly giving efficient moisture , a natural sunscreen spf 10 (which blocks 90 percent uvb), it doesn't allow substrate to stick, it doesn't mess with thermoregulation as far as I can tell after multiple days of temp taking after first application, and lastly it makes one hell of a shine. 
I am sure some of you see a particular issue of this being a natural sunscreen that blocks 90 percent of the thing our tortoises need the most of for proper bone development and overall health. But my question is does my little guy get more benefit from a weekly application of extra virgin coconut oil then not applying it? 
My goal is longevity he is indoor captive and will be for the foreseeable future, mvb bulbs literally suck the moisture right out of our tortoises shells (got that info from a thread here) and being exposed to a mvb constantly day in and day out constantly sucking that moisture out isn't the best. Is there a way as tortoise keepers who can't bring outside at all times to help prevent some of that moisture loss? is it possible to give them some protection from the constant baking lights? I understand the importance of humidity and lighting needed for optimal health but is it also doing them a disservice by not giving them some sort of protection from the baking lights? Allowing their shells to stay moisturized on a table top setting without plucking the moisture from deep within? Of course moderation is absolute. Too much application and you block the good out. I am very curious to all your opinions. 

So I decided to give it a try about a week ago, my Russian is in perfect health after getting a complete checkup with x-rays. So his shell has a small dent (possibly from shipping) but otherwise looks pretty smooth. After I bathed him, I applied a thin coat of extra virgin coconut oil, pretty instantaneously I saw a magnificent shine. I wanted to see how much would initially get absorbed which was quite a bit.. I let it sit for about a minute before I wiped it off with a super extra soft micro fiber cloth. He enjoyed every second of the massage too.. (went to school for massage therapy)even tortoises appreciate a good massage haha. 5 days later and it still has that healthy shine just not as vibrant as when first applied. This is very debatable as I know a lot of you have raised many many clutches of perfectly healthy tortoises without any topical oils, and are set in your opinions so please let's hear it  and if am wrong in any of my information please correct me. Pictures provided


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## glitch4200

Here is my little guy and current set up


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## glitch4200

the first pictures are first day application and second thread is today 5 days after initial application, my goal is to rid of that little divet in his shell.


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## glitch4200

Sorry first day application here


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## glitch4200

Stupid shiny


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## pfara

I've actually used coconut oil (same kind as yours) to condition my torts' shells. I don't do it often.. just every once in a while when I wanna give an overall check up after soaks. From what I've read, the UV blocking issue doesn't affect anything as long as you apply the oil to just the shell; UVB intake is through the skin and not the shell.

I've used these shell conditioning times to get my torts used to me, check 'em out, and make 'em "pretty". Again, it's not very often at all and I haven't seen any problems so far.

As for combating the shell from dessicating, I have plenty of moist areas that they hide in (plants, moss) after they bask.


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## Magilla504

I find that your coconut oil idea is interesting. You have really put a lot if thought into it. My thinking though is that these animals do not apply anything in the wild to shine up or "protect" their shell. While I do love for my torts to look healthy and great, is the shiny shell necessary? Would the look be better for me or the tortoise? I do wonder over a long period of time how it may affect he growth of the shell(good or bad). I will definately be interested to follow if you continue to experiment. It will be interesting to see what our experienced senior members have to say


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## glitch4200

Absolutely but you refer to the "wild" where they allow nature to provide for all that is needed to survive but he is my awesome little buddy and always indoors so he is taken out of that natural element at which point is there something that we as owners can do to help ease the moisture that Is expelled from deepnwithin the shell and skin from these artificial lamps that so many of us are tied down to for whatever reason. We know that humidity and light are essential to optimal care but these lamps bake are little guys. So something as natural and beneficial as cold pressed extra virgin coconut oil could it be applied to basic husbandry for indoor kept tortoises like a Russian to help elevate some of the harm these unnatural setups provide and raise them with the iconic smooth shelled long lived tortoise? I don't know about you guys but I am horrible with animal deaths and I want my little guy to live as long as I do. But Illinois and my location doesn't provide the best outdoor habitat option so for me I am trying to think critically to improve his micro health to give him the best chance for long term happiness and survival. And one of the biggest issue I see after doing the resesrch on these light is how much moisture is taken from the mvb. The shell looking shiny is the last thing I am thinking of here. It's just a bonus. Could something organic like this help this issue?


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## zenoandthetortoise

glitch4200 said:


> Absolutely but you refer to the "wild" where they allow nature to provide for all that is needed to survive but he is my awesome little buddy and always indoors so he is taken out of that natural element at which point is there something that we as owners can do to help ease the moisture that Is expelled from deepnwithin the shell and skin from these artificial lamps that so many of us are tied down to for whatever reason. We know that humidity and light are essential to optimal care but these lamps bake are little guys. So something as natural and beneficial as cold pressed extra virgin coconut oil could it be applied to basic husbandry for indoor kept tortoises like a Russian to help elevate some of the harm these unnatural setups provide and raise them with the iconic smooth shelled long lived tortoise? I don't know about you guys but I am horrible with animal deaths and I want my little guy to live as long as I do. But Illinois and my location doesn't provide the best outdoor habitat option so for me I am trying to think critically to improve his micro health to give him the best chance for long term happiness and survival. And one of the biggest issue I see after doing the resesrch on these light is how much moisture is taken from the mvb. The shell looking shiny is the last thing I am thinking of here. It's just a bonus. Could something organic like this help this issue?



Very well put. I look forward to getting updates on your results


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## puffy137

glitch4200 said:


> Absolutely but you refer to the "wild" where they allow nature to provide for all that is needed to survive but he is my awesome little buddy and always indoors so he is taken out of that natural element at which point is there something that we as owners can do to help ease the moisture that Is expelled from deepnwithin the shell and skin from these artificial lamps that so many of us are tied down to for whatever reason. We know that humidity and light are essential to optimal care but these lamps bake are little guys. So something as natural and beneficial as cold pressed extra virgin coconut oil could it be applied to basic husbandry for indoor kept tortoises like a Russian to help elevate some of the harm these unnatural setups provide and raise them with the iconic smooth shelled long lived tortoise? I don't know about you guys but I am horrible with animal deaths and I want my little guy to live as long as I do. But Illinois and my location doesn't provide the best outdoor habitat option so for me I am trying to think critically to improve his micro health to give him the best chance for long term happiness and survival. And one of the biggest issue I see after doing the resesrch on these light is how much moisture is taken from the mvb. The shell looking shiny is the last thing I am thinking of here. It's just a bonus. Could something organic like this help this issue?


Very interesting. As my herd live outdoors in a dusty environment it would not be practical for them , but I might think of doing it for cosmetic purposes when they need their photos taken. As it is they only look their best after a shower


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## Elnewman622

is this the right kind of coconut oil?


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## glitch4200

No that is refined either with heat or u natural chemicals . you want cold pressed extra virgin coconut oil.


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## Elnewman622

glitch4200 said:


> No that is refined . This is what you want


Sorry I don't understand what you said is that what i need ?


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## glitch4200

This is what I am talking about


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## Elnewman622

Ok


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## Elnewman622

But is there anything wrong with the one I showed or should I buy the one you showed


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## glitch4200

Yes refined means it was heat treated since it claims being organic so most likely their shouldn't be any other chemicals added. But you lose some of the amino acids and potency of the anti- properties of the oil .I went to massage school and you never ever buy refined massage oils the process destroys so many of the natural benifits of the oil. And decreases potency exponentially. I Always buy cold pressed oils.


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## glitch4200

I specialized in rain drop therapy that comprises 7 essential cold pressed oils used in a specific order to promote a certain sequence at the micro level .


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## Elnewman622

so something like this ?


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## glitch4200

Yes exactly what you would want if your interested in this topic.


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## glitch4200

http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/15724344

Here is a link a double blind study to gauge the effectiveness in humans using extra virgin coconut oil as a moisturizer . Which they concluded that it indeed worked as one quite well. Since humans have keratin present in there skin , it should serve as at lest some evidence that application has benefit in the shell of a tortoise since there shell Is mostly keratin.


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## glitch4200

These benefits of oil can be attributed to the presence of lauric acid, capric acid and caprylic acid, and their respective properties, such as antimicrobial, antioxidant, anti-fungal, antibacterial and soothing qualities. Saturated fatty acids: Most of them are medium chain triglycerides, which are supposed to assimilate well in the body’s systems. Lauric acid is the chief contributor, representing more than forty percent of the total, followed by capric acid, caprylic acid, myristic acid and palmitic.


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## glitch4200

This could be a huge help to tortoises that do get shell rot and help fighting it . or just preventing fungus and bacterial possibilities while being captive indoors either way . I think this is really something to consider and I will post more supporting information soon


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## leigti

glitch4200 said:


> the first pictures are first day application and second thread is today 5 days after initial application, my goal is to rid of that little divet in his shell.


I think you have a beautiful tortoise, great looking shell. And I do like the idea of a very occasional application of the coconut oil. But one of your statements did bother me a little bit, you said that you wanted to try to get rid of the little Divet in the shell. this seems a little overboard to me, if you are trying so hard to keep your tortoise completely smooth you are setting yourself up for failure.they can get little dings and divots in their shells just from crawling under a rock or something else and their enclosure.it is natural, and does not hurt the tortoise at all. And it gives them a little character and does not show that you are taking poor care of your tortoise in anyway.we all have little scars that we have just gotten from living, and so do our pets.that's just my opinion.


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## glitch4200

Thank you i respect your opinion its much appreciated. i feel i may have come off the wrong way with that statement, i apologize. I am interested in seeing if what i read was actually even possible with this stuff, i ABSOLUTLY LOVE his imperfections and i am proud of every little bit of him. I dont want to change a thing execpt making sure he is at optimal health and happiness, I was reading some pretty cool stuff about coconut oil like cellular regeneration and i was wondering if occasional but consistent application can actually do that.. Hence when i saw his cute little divet, i wondered if it is probable, knowing that type of information in my opinion is really cool and it could possibly save a tortoises life on here which would be the best gift for me.


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## glitch4200

leigti said:


> I think you have a beautiful tortoise, great looking shell. And I do like the idea of a very occasional application of the coconut oil. But one of your statements did bother me a little bit, you said that you wanted to try to get rid of the little Divet in the shell. this seems a little overboard to me, if you are trying so hard to keep your tortoise completely smooth you are setting yourself up for failure.they can get little dings and divots in their shells just from crawling under a rock or something else and their enclosure.it is natural, and does not hurt the tortoise at all. And it gives them a little character and does not show that you are taking poor care of your tortoise in anyway.we all have little scars that we have just gotten from living, and so do our pets.that's just my opinion.



Thank you  i highly respect everyone opinion on here. It's much appreciated. I feel i may have come off wrong with that comment and would like to clarify myself. First I LOVE MY LITTLE TORTOISES IMPERFECTIONS it makes him unique and fantastic. I dont want to change anything about his characteristics, but i was wondering if its possible to really make the shell benefit from occasional but consistent application. i was reading something really cool on cellular regeneration with extra virgin coconut oil. Hence, i thought well what if it did help imperfections or did regnerate cells nice and evenly. I am more concerned with the fact of it actually working , and knowing that something organic and pure like this can possibily save a tortoises life without any toxic side effect. That to me is the best gift i can have with this idea. If i can improve the life of other tortoises in this forum who are also indoor bound with a simple solution such as extra virgin coconut oil wouldn't you want to know that as well ? i sure doo.. =) but i defintely see why that would bother you, it bothers me. i am not a god , i am a caretaker trying innovate for my little guy.


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## leigti

glitch4200 said:


> Thank you  i highly respect everyone opinion on here. It's much appreciated. I feel i may have come off wrong with that comment and would like to clarify myself. First I LOVE MY LITTLE TORTOISES IMPERFECTIONS it makes him unique and fantastic. I dont want to change anything about his characteristics, but i was wondering if its possible to really make the shell benefit from occasional but consistent application. i was reading something really cool on cellular regeneration with extra virgin coconut oil. Hence, i thought well what if it did help imperfections or did regnerate cells nice and evenly. I am more concerned with the fact of it actually working , and knowing that something organic and pure like this can possibily save a tortoises life without any toxic side effect. That to me is the best gift i can have with this idea. If i can improve the life of other tortoises in this forum who are also indoor bound with a simple solution such as extra virgin coconut oil wouldn't you want to know that as well ? i sure doo.. =) but i defintely see why that would bother you, it bothers me. i am not a god , i am a caretaker trying innovate for my little guy.


Okay, I understand more what you were meaning. It's just that sometimes people get so obsessed about the smoothness and perfection of a tortoise shell and forget about the overall animal. Kind a like the rest of our society and is so much into perfect appearance. I will probably try some of it with my tortoise and see how it goes. She had a very rough life before she got to me and her shell shows it. but even if it doesn't work I will love her anyway


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## glitch4200

leigti said:


> Okay, I understand more what you were meaning. It's just that sometimes people get so obsessed about the smoothness and perfection of a tortoise shell and forget about the overall animal. Kind a like the rest of our society and is so much into perfect appearance. I will probably try some of it with my tortoise and see how it goes. She had a very rough life before she got to me and her shell shows it. but even if it doesn't work I will love her anyway



Oh undoubtedly , I will love him no matter what! He is my best friend. My little pal. Society disgusts me when it comes to their views on beauty and how it should be. Beauty isn't skin deep. Beauty encompasses the body , soul and spirit. Not just the body. Many many people forget that are imperfections are what make us perfect. My goal is to innovate. To find a way to better his life. To make him the happiest little guy I can possibly make him. After reading so much we really are in the period of time of learning the best ways to take care of our tortoises. This is the 21st century , I think we are overdue on some innovation. And what if it does work? What if coconut oil after consistent application gives the tortoises held inside that extra boost of vitality and health they needed to combat an unnatural environment . Wouldnt that be awesome to know? Wouldn't that be benificial to everyone on here who has an indoor captive tortoise? I apologize for my excitement and out there thoughts. I smoke entirely to much weed haha. But as technology gets better and are understanding of medicine gets better there should be ways to increase there lifespan to there optimal ages. And I put my money on essential therapeutic grade cold pressed oils such as extra virgin coconut oil. Am I wrong for this? Am I out of my scope of practice?


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## leigti

Well, I don't know what your scope of practice is. But I think we all want to take better care of our tortoises. Ideas and practices have changed over the years. I've only had my tortoise for two years so I don't know much personally about that, just what I read on here. But I know as far as taking care of my dog for instantsthings have changed in the last 20 years. And although my first dog lived to be 17 years old I did things with her diet etc. that I would never think about doing out with my other dog.but as people gain more knowledge than practices change. I would say keep good notes of what you were doing, be open to other ideas also, and see how it works.there are many people on this forum who have had tortoises for decades, some of them may have some views on this also.


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## glitch4200

And I hope to hear many other opinions , I am open to everything. I want people who have way more experiance than me to educate me on the stuff I am possibly getting wrong .


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## Alaskamike

This is interesting. I've used organic cold pressed coconut oil as a skin softener / lotion for years , I also used it on my hair ( when I had hair lol) 
I've thought of using it on tort shells, but hadn't tried it yet. The chemical info you shared is good. I would use coconut oil before the shell shine products 
I think I may try this once a week. 
Here in So Florida, during the rainy season it can be 80-95% humidity everyday. We do have to be mindful of fungus and shell rot. My sully's underground hide stays at 95-99% humidity. Even when it's 50% outside. 
Thanks


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## glitch4200

Alaskamike said:


> This is interesting. I've used organic cold pressed coconut oil as a skin softener / lotion for years , I also used it on my hair ( when I had hair lol)
> I've thought of using it on tort shells, but hadn't tried it yet. The chemical info you shared is good. I would use coconut oil before the shell shine products
> I think I may try this once a week.
> Here in So Florida, during the rainy season it can be 80-95% humidity everyday. We do have to be mindful of fungus and shell rot. My sully's underground hide stays at 95-99% humidity. Even when it's 50% outside.
> Thanks



No, thank you.  Please if you a spare second if you could record your observations , time, location and a picture associated with the application of the oil . That would contribute to the legitimacy of extra virgin coconut oil for tortoise owners. I want information to come from others then just me , it would be very interesting to compare observation and data and formulate some hypothesis to the legitimate use of this oil for our beloved tortoises. The more that people feel this could actually be something critically new to our tortoises health , the better the data and better the conclusion .. and with a solid foundation of data comes an increase of overall health across the board. I hope others will be willing to participate! I am doing my second consistent application today!


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## glitch4200

Well the extremely potent antifungal properties in EVCO would serve justice to that particular problem.


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## glitch4200

Week 1: One teaspoon of extra virgin coconut oil unrefined, cold pressed. Applied after bath, 1x a week. 
Observed effects: about 2/3 of the teaspoon is absorbed after initial application right away. Very little was wiped off from the cloth. Upon closer examination with a magnifying glass I see very wet look to the keratin. Colors are magnified, the look of being hydrated (my opinion) , little ridges look to have absorbed well. One thing I do note is a small increase in thermo shell temperature in relation to surround temperature, but body temp seems to be even throughout each of the limbs at 90.3 F and top shell at 95.0 F whereas right and left side 94.0 F, back shell 92.0 F. He is very alert, no reaction from application, not hiding, normal stool. End week 1 data.


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## glitch4200

Week 2: 10.20.14 one teaspoon extra virgin coconut oil unrefined , cold pressed. Applied after bath 1x a week. 
Observed effects: used entire teaspoon this time. Let it sit for about 5 minutes. Wiped off excess which again was very little. I applied it to a couple dry areas on the inside hands and elbow area as well. Thermo regulation : Top of shell: 95.6 F back of shell 92.4 F sides of shell 93.2 F, front arms : 92.7 F back legs (was in shaded part) 88.5 F. He is still very alert, still no reaction from application. Looking through magnifying glass I see wet ridges, looks very moisturized. Normal stool, and calcium deposits , looks hydrated. Regular basking. End week 2 data


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## leigti

It would be interesting to do a study with a tortoise who has a more damaged weathered shell.


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## glitch4200

Very much so luckly my little guy was in pretty good shape when I got him .. but if anyone has a tortoise they would be willing to try this .. honestly if it's damaged or was not properly cared for 2x times a week would be ideal would be a great indication of any type of healing properties to a weathered shell. My tortoise isn't the best test subject in this matter


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## leigti

My tortoise probably would be but I cannot see well enough to give any subjective or objective data.


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## glitch4200

It's ok much love for being interested! I am so excited the more I read on this stuff. This has turned into a for sure hobby .


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## Elnewman622

is this kind good or no


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## Elnewman622

I've been looking for coconut oil that's right and I know that it should be extra virgin but does it have to be cold press ?


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## glitch4200

Expelled pressed is efficient mechanical pressed oil which means it can reach temperature exceeding 99 degrees. It looses some crucial vitamins like vitamin E. Which is one of the moisturizing properties of extra virgin coconut oil. Cold pressed doesn't exceed temperature of 60 degrees maintaining crucial vitamins. So the answer to your question is close, but preferably you want cold pressed. It must say Cold pressed too.


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## glitch4200

Expelling pressed vs cold pressed


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## Elnewman622

glitch4200 said:


> Expelled pressed is efficient mechanical pressed oil which means it can reach temperature exceeding 99 degrees. It looses some crucial vitamins like vitamin E. Which is one of the moisturizing properties of extra virgin coconut oil. Cold pressed doesn't exceed temperature of 60 degrees maintaining crucial vitamins. So the answer to your question is close, but preferably you want cold pressed. It must say Cold pressed too.


So I can use it ?


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## glitch4200

Yes but 10 percent or more of the nutrients were lost during the expelling process.


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## glitch4200

The point of this experiment is to observe and minimize the moisture loss in the Shell and skin due to indoor lights, mvb, uv, uva, heat lamps etc. As well as the possibility of healing effects at the cellular level. but would be extremely difficult to observe and prove without the proper equipment to test that. But again observation, pictures and writing notes down definitely helps me build my case.


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## Maggie Cummings

Without going into any details, I was very sick for months and had neighbors help care for my animals when I couldn't. None of the people who helped me know a darned thing about chelonia.
I have not mentioned this in a thread but...Nobody seemed to notice that Bob grew taller and his light had slipped a bit. He has a 160 watt MVB that was about 4 inches above his carapace when I was well enough to notice. His carapace is ruined. His new growth is burned black and I can flake off pieces of his carapace with my bad fingers. So that should be weathered enough for your discussion. An expert suggested I put extra virgin olive oil on it to moisturize it. When I went to the Vet to weigh him, (see a different thread), she said to use vitamin E oil. So I had already used the olive oil and when I first put it on, it soaked in like water in the Sahara. But I have a tendency to over do everything. If a little is good, a lot is better good...So I gave Bob warm oil massages nightly for about a week. He looked like a grease ball. Then dirt started sticking to him, and when the falling leaves stuck too I figured I might be using too much oil.
So the night I decided to give him a warm soapy bath to get rid of the oil, he decided he was done with me messing with him, and he no longer fell for the distract with Mazuri trick, so he went into his sleeping box, unreachable to me. But the next day I caught him outside and soaped him up. He did that stutter jump thing at me, so funny. He really got irritated so I guess I'm lucky he didn't ram me. Anyway...Vitamin E oil is thick as hell and you just use drops of it. So I dropped all kinds of E oil all over...Ended up with another soapy bath, by now Bob is emailing members on TFO for help. My sis tells me to use a Q-tip and just lightly put in on the needed areas, and wipe off excess. So I'm going with the Vitamin E oil over the olive oil or the coconut oil. Used correctly, there's not a greasy mess all over and the Vet says it has better healing properties. When I went to give him another soapy bath he called 911, so I'm pretty sure he's done with this messing with his carapace.
Bob's carapace will always be wrecked, it will be a long time before there's any difference. But my goal is to fix the dryness, hence the oil; I run a vaporizer in his shed daily, and I have added a sprinkle of calcium to his food and I am going to buy a fresh UVB bulb for the winter...and it's raining like hell, so Oregon is helping with the moisture...
Poor Bob, between the two of us, we've had a pretty crappy time lately....


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## leigti

maggie3fan said:


> Without going into any details, I was very sick for months and had neighbors help care for my animals when I couldn't. None of the people who helped me know a darned thing about chelonia.
> I have not mentioned this in a thread but...Nobody seemed to notice that Bob grew taller and his light had slipped a bit. He has a 160 watt MVB that was about 4 inches above his carapace when I was well enough to notice. His carapace is ruined. His new growth is burned black and I can flake off pieces of his carapace with my bad fingers. So that should be weathered enough for your discussion. An expert suggested I put extra virgin olive oil on it to moisturize it. When I went to the Vet to weigh him, (see a different thread), she said to use vitamin E oil. So I had already used the olive oil and when I first put it on, it soaked in like water in the Sahara. But I have a tendency to over do everything. If a little is good, a lot is better good...So I gave Bob warm oil massages nightly for about a week. He looked like a grease ball. Then dirt started sticking to him, and when the falling leaves stuck too I figured I might be using too much oil.
> So the night I decided to give him a warm soapy bath to get rid of the oil, he decided he was done with me messing with him, and he no longer fell for the distract with Mazuri trick, so he went into his sleeping box, unreachable to me. But the next day I caught him outside and soaped him up. He did that stutter jump thing at me, so funny. He really got irritated so I guess I'm lucky he didn't ram me. Anyway...Vitamin E oil is thick as hell and you just use drops of it. So I dropped all kinds of E oil all over...Ended up with another soapy bath, by now Bob is emailing members on TFO for help. My sis tells me to use a Q-tip and just lightly put in on the needed areas, and wipe off excess. So I'm going with the Vitamin E oil over the olive oil or the coconut oil. Used correctly, there's not a greasy mess all over and the Vet says it has better healing properties. When I went to give him another soapy bath he called 911, so I'm pretty sure he's done with this messing with his carapace.
> Bob's carapace will always be wrecked, it will be a long time before there's any difference. But my goal is to fix the dryness, hence the oil; I run a vaporizer in his shed daily, and I have added a sprinkle of calcium to his food and I am going to buy a fresh UVB bulb for the winter...and it's raining like hell, so Oregon is helping with the moisture...
> Poor Bob, between the two of us, we've had a pretty crappy time lately....


I'm sorry to hear that Bob got burned.wow, I would have been I rate! People mean well though.when I got my tortoise the vet told me she has what looks like a burn on her show also.I have not done much except I tried vita Shell a couple times, and I tried olive oil a couple times.I am seriously considering the coconut oil.and I will have to restrain myself to not put too much on also my tortoise has to be in during the winter under UV lighting and heat lamps.


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## glitch4200

maggie3fan said:


> Without going into any details, I was very sick for months and had neighbors help care for my animals when I couldn't. None of the people who helped me know a darned thing about chelonia.
> I have not mentioned this in a thread but...Nobody seemed to notice that Bob grew taller and his light had slipped a bit. He has a 160 watt MVB that was about 4 inches above his carapace when I was well enough to notice. His carapace is ruined. His new growth is burned black and I can flake off pieces of his carapace with my bad fingers. So that should be weathered enough for your discussion. An expert suggested I put extra virgin olive oil on it to moisturize it. When I went to the Vet to weigh him, (see a different thread), she said to use vitamin E oil. So I had already used the olive oil and when I first put it on, it soaked in like water in the Sahara. But I have a tendency to over do everything. If a little is good, a lot is better good...So I gave Bob warm oil massages nightly for about a week. He looked like a grease ball. Then dirt started sticking to him, and when the falling leaves stuck too I figured I might be using too much oil.
> So the night I decided to give him a warm soapy bath to get rid of the oil, he decided he was done with me messing with him, and he no longer fell for the distract with Mazuri trick, so he went into his sleeping box, unreachable to me. But the next day I caught him outside and soaped him up. He did that stutter jump thing at me, so funny. He really got irritated so I guess I'm lucky he didn't ram me. Anyway...Vitamin E oil is thick as hell and you just use drops of it. So I dropped all kinds of E oil all over...Ended up with another soapy bath, by now Bob is emailing members on TFO for help. My sis tells me to use a Q-tip and just lightly put in on the needed areas, and wipe off excess. So I'm going with the Vitamin E oil over the olive oil or the coconut oil. Used correctly, there's not a greasy mess all over and the Vet says it has better healing properties. When I went to give him another soapy bath he called 911, so I'm pretty sure he's done with this messing with his carapace.
> Bob's carapace will always be wrecked, it will be a long time before there's any difference. But my goal is to fix the dryness, hence the oil; I run a vaporizer in his shed daily, and I have added a sprinkle of calcium to his food and I am going to buy a fresh UVB bulb for the winter...and it's raining like hell, so Oregon is helping with the moisture...
> Poor Bob, between the two of us, we've had a pretty crappy time lately....



I am so sorry to hear about your health. I hope a very speedy and well recovery for you, as well as continued health onward. Second, it made me tear up hearing about his incident. The only thing we can do now is care for his shell and prevent any infection and maintain moisture. How long ago did this happen? If he was burned that bad, using any oil more then 1x every 3 days, will be pointless. The keratin isnt able to handle the moisture that is present in either the oil or the vitamin E oil per burnt surface area of his shell. Anything more then a very very light coating to the shell will be more then enough. Let that sit for 2-3 days, it can only absorb so much. The one thing i am worried about, and i am not a vet but the possibility for infection with such a injury with his shell being so burnt. The vet is 100 percent right about the Vitamin E oil having better moisturizing properties, but that is essentially all you get in Vitamin E oil. it has some other benefits internally once absorbed but so little is being absorbed by the shell that a lot is wasted and alot of the benefits are gone too. Cold pressed extra virgin coconut oil works as a natural powerful sunscreen at an efficiency of 90%, preventing moisture from escaping the already rough shell during the daylight. Second, the antibacterial, antifungal and antiviral properties of EVCO will no doubt help prevent shell rot with such a damaged shell the increased chance of infection is present. The coconut oil has a high Oxidative Stability Index and exhibits strong anti*-inflammatory* and analgesic properties. Its lauric acid content have also been proven to help the immune system fight off infections. And last of course is its ability to retain moisture in hair and skin for days. Our hair is made up of a good percentage of keratin, as well as the skin. This is has been proven to improve long term moisture in hair and skin in humans which is made mostly of keratin. So can it be safe to say it can be applied to animals. I really hope the shell sees improvement. Please keep me updated on him, i hope i was atleast the tiniest bit of help in this convo.. Again i wish you both the best of health.


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## glitch4200

For anyone who views this thread and can at all relate to what I am trying to research and would like to participate in what I have have said about cold pressed extra virgin coconut oil, Please I implore you to look all this information up, reconfirm, or rebutt any information I have posted and do a little experiment on your little guy if you feel your tortoise can benefit from what has been discussed thus far. ONLY if you feel comfortable do I ask you to help me in my experiment and to see the authenticity of benefit of EVCO to our beloved tortoises. I highly respect the audience in this forum and I know some of you find this very interesting. I want your imput.  it seems to me that after reading so much on here that we have gained much knowledge in the last 20 years, so that means in the coming future there needs to be more innovation and less fus over the basics (even though it's undeniably crucial to know the basics).


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## glitch4200

I see a lot of talk on here. A lot informing one another, which is amazing.(the point of a forum I guess) But every once in awhile something comes along to change the whole game , a realization, a conclusion through experience , sheer luck, or data that has been analysed and researched to the t. In 20 years where would we be compared to now? I bet you there could be a lot of change in the the way we care for these beautiful creatures 20 years down the road but that includes trial and error. Hence my need for trial. But with something as a safe as this oil there is very little room for error. Only conclusion and data to be analysed by the people who are interested in taking that extra step. Idk maybe I am completely wrong. But what if u am not? I guess we shall see


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## Maggie Cummings

There is no 'wound'. It turned the new growth black and cased damage to several scutes, basically lifting them up. I'll find a couple of pix for you...


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## Maggie Cummings

The grooves are deep







My finger is not pointing, it's IN a groove


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## CindyWho4

Okay, I'm curious on this one. My RT was adopted from a pet store (he was unable to be sold), and I'm certain he is wild-caught. His shell is not horrible, but it's not in the greatest shape either. I'm gonna try to attach a picture so you can see. The picture was taken on the car ride home from the store. Is this something you all would recommend for him?


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## glitch4200

CindyWho4 said:


> Okay, I'm curious on this one. My RT was adopted from a pet store (he was unable to be sold), and I'm certain he is wild-caught. His shell is not horrible, but it's not in the greatest shape either. I'm gonna try to attach a picture so you can see. The picture was taken on the car ride home from the store. Is this something you all would recommend for him?


 
I only recommend it if you feel comfortable with it. I will not tell you to do anything unless you feel 100 percent about it. I feel strongly for extra virgin coconut oil and it's properties thus I encourage you to try it out and do some research as well. Apply a thin coat to the shell and rough patches on the skin 1x every 3-4 days for a weathered, damaged shell, either use a qtip or your finger if they allow it. My little guy loves massage time. After a couple applications I have noticed that it takes on average 2-4 days for that oil to soak completely in to the shell till I see no longer see the shine that was present at beginning of application . To me that is an impotent piece to the puzzle, it tells me that it takes time to soak in which any application in my opinoin other then the time frame I said probably would be pointless and a waste of oil. I only do this 1x a week for my little guy , his shell is in pretty good condition.


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## glitch4200

maggie3fan said:


> The grooves are deep
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My finger is not pointing, it's IN a groove
> View attachment 101132
> View attachment 101133
> View attachment 101135


 
Oh wow. These are some deep grooves. For this I would personally in my opinoin. Apply a liberal to each of grooves , paying attention to the the deep groves on the interior lateral edges of all The scutes. those lifted scutes gives infection a higher possibility. You want to make sure nothing gets under them. I would apply it personally every 3 days or 2x a week atleast. Don't put so much you need to bath him. The lightest coating does a lot and takes time to absorb. Vitamin E oil is a bigger molecule and doesn't absorb as well as coconut oil which means you need longer time for absorption. I really feel you will see results.


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## CindyWho4

glitch4200 said:


> I only recommend it if you feel comfortable with it. I will not tell you to do anything unless you feel 100 percent about it. I feel strongly for extra virgin coconut oil and it's properties thus I encourage you to try it out and do some research as well. Apply a thin coat to the shell and rough patches on the skin 1x every 3-4 days for a weathered, damaged shell, either use a qtip or your finger if they allow it. My little guy loves massage time. After a couple applications I have noticed that it takes on average 2-4 days for that oil to soak completely in to the shell till I see no longer see the shine that was present at beginning of application . To me that is an impotent piece to the puzzle, it tells me that it takes time to soak in which any application in my opinoin other then the time frame I said probably would be pointless and a waste of oil. I only do this 1x a week for my little guy , his shell is in pretty good condition.



Okay, thank you.  I worry about the condition of his shell. I don't know if it's okay or not. It doesn't look that bad to me, but the vet said he probably had some issues in the past.


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## glitch4200

CindyWho4 said:


> Okay, thank you.  I worry about the condition of his shell. I don't know if it's okay or not. It doesn't look that bad to me, but the vet said he probably had some issues in the past.


 
Try it. The way I see it there is very very little risk with this. So why not. It's not hurting him at all even in the slightest bit as far as I have concluded


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## glitch4200

Week 2: 2nd application. 
It was his second bath time this week and I decided to throw a nice layer of extra virgin coconut oil on to him again after I noticed dryness on his wittle arms and legs. Of course he loved his massage . Again very little is sticking to him . He is extremely alert and active today. I made it a point to get the oil into all his soft little spots which he honestly didn't mind to much. Of course I wiped off the excess. I saw the biggest moisture improvement in his arms when I applied it . They look so healthy and colorful from just observation. I have also noticed it takes on average 2-3 days for an application of oil to absorb into the skin and shell. Lmao he smells so good I can almost eat him .. hahaha of course I would never but for real smells amazing.


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## glitch4200

Week 2: 2nd application


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## phebe121

I did my first coconut oil on the shell a few days ago how often do i apply and it on the skin doesnt hurt the uvb from gettin to there skin cuz id apply it to there dry little heads


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## Maggie Cummings

glitch4200 said:


> Expelled pressed is efficient mechanical pressed oil which means it can reach temperature exceeding 99 degrees. It looses some crucial vitamins like vitamin E. Which is one of the moisturizing properties of extra virgin coconut oil. Cold pressed doesn't exceed temperature of 60 degrees maintaining crucial vitamins. So the answer to your question is close, but preferably you want cold pressed. It must say Cold pressed too.



I found it for $11 at Safeway...


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## glitch4200

phebe121 said:


> I did my first coconut oil on the shell a few days ago how often do i apply and it on the skin doesnt hurt the uvb from gettin to there skin cuz id apply it to there dry little heads



If your tortoise is weathered and really dry I would suggest 2 times a week after bathtime. It does serve a potent sunblock at abkut 90 percent efficency but with appropriate uvb lighting and only applying it once or twice a week makes me feel that your little guy will still be able to absorb the rays efficiently. Although if you have poor lighting I would not advice putting it on the skin since they are already not receiving the appropriate lighting and blocking uvb is probably not in the best interest of the tortoise at that point. currently I am alternating 2xs a week one week and then 1x a week another week. I want to see the difference week by week and see which seems better for him. He's in pretty good shape so, I am not as worried. I have noticed a huge difference in his shell. I don't see any dryness anymore like I did.. Exps When He Is Under That Uvb Light , I Used to see those dry lines appear after a day of baking under those lights, now I don't see them anymore.


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## glitch4200

maggie3fan said:


> I found it for $11 at Safeway...



Super cheap and last forever! And it smells so Damm good


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## glitch4200

I am interested in hearing from the veterans of this forum. How do you feel about what I say?


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## johnsonnboswell

Anecdotal evidence is not science. Gathering evidence and making observations are not the same. Without a control subject, drawing conclusions is difficult. With tortoises, it can take decades before any conclusion can be drawn. All you can say for now is that the shell looks pretty & doesn't get dirty. It is not possible to draw further conclusions at this time. 

I find this entire set up troubling. I see a focus on counteracting the effects of MV lights, drying effects that are not established as causal. I see an insistence on indoor care. I see touted benefits that are generally not an issue in tortoise care. (Anti fungal , etc.) I know humans absorb uv rays through the skin, but I'd like to see the research on Chelonia. 

Is coconut oil a good safe moisturizer? Maybe. How often is it necessary? How often is it desirable? One danger in overuse is that it masks the effect of ill health and bad environment. Another is that it may soften the keratin layer over time. 

Would I try coconut oil to counteract a problem? Maybe. As a prophylactic measure? No. I wouldn't use any topical ointment on a regular basis more than once or twice a year on my animals, and more likely not at all.


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## CindyWho4

My biggest concern using it on mine is that it's getting to the time of year where I can't get him outside. I worry about blocking any bit of UV rays he can get


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## Yvonne G

I might use it on a Q-tip and only paint the new growth areas, not the whole shell. I sometimes notice the new growth to be pretty hard and dry, and I THINK it's supposed to be more pliable and softer. So that would be the only application I would use it for. 

But I'm interested in watching your study. I love it when members share their ideas with us. And I try to have an open mind.


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## glitch4200

johnsonnboswell said:


> Anecdotal evidence is not science. Gathering evidence and making observations are not the same. Without a control subject, drawing conclusions is difficult. With tortoises, it can take decades before any conclusion can be drawn. All you can say for now is that the shell looks pretty & doesn't get dirty. It is not possible to draw further conclusions at this time.
> 
> I find this entire set up troubling. I see a focus on counteracting the effects of MV lights, drying effects that are not established as causal. I see an insistence on indoor care. I see touted benefits that are generally not an issue in tortoise care. (Anti fungal , etc.) I know humans absorb uv rays through the skin, but I'd like to see the research on Chelonia.
> 
> Is coconut oil a good safe moisturizer? Maybe. How often is it necessary? How often is it desirable? One danger in overuse is that it masks the effect of ill health and bad environment. Another is that it may soften the keratin layer over time.
> 
> Would I try coconut oil to counteract a problem? Maybe. As a prophylactic measure? No. I wouldn't use any topical ointment on a regular basis more than once or twice a year on my animals, and more likely not at all.



The drying effects of the MVB, was found after reading a study on here with actual data I believe from Tom outlining the effects the mercury vapor bulb pulling the moisture deep from within the skin and shell of the tortoise, since usually there is layers of water vapor between our atmosphere that absorbs the harmful rays and doesn't wick away the moisture but with the bulbs being so close there is nothing to prevent that moisture from being taken from our little guys. I can't seem to find the thread I know someone has to know what I am talking about I read it multiple times here . It was a study done about the mvb and it's effects on the moisture. There was a lot of data gathered, that showed this effect. Turning the mvb on and instantly seeing the humidity drop. If anyone knows the thread I am speaking of could link it ? 

I understand the hesitation and concern. Knowing the proper husbandry is ultimately the first step in taking care of the tortoise. But proper husbandry aside , I also know that my conclusions are all hear say without much scientific approach to it. The Benefits for humans is undeniable in my opinion. With much research done to back it up. 
Does everyone need to worry about fungus, not necessarily, but it's good to know that it can effectively combat. I trust natural products way more then I trust pharmaceuticals. Any day. If fungus was present I would DEFINITELY want try the ointment before giving him drugs that could harm him. 
My insistence on indoor care is strictly for those people who can not attain a safe outdoor enclosure for whatever reason and cannot get them outside as much as they should. Otherwise it is well known on here from reading so much the best habitat is a natural outdoor one with as much space is possible. 
My biggest concern is the ability to block some of uvb light and preventing from proper metabolization. but again my deal here is preventing the moisture loss from these baking bulbs. Which I was really convinced after reading about murcury vapor bulbs and there absorption of moisture. The fact that my ambient humidity is over 60 percent when my lights are off and the second my lights get turned on it drops significantly to the low 30s, at which point I must introduce proper humidity.. that tells me something.. and the dry lines on his shell, look like a lot the moisture is been zapped.. the shell got very very rough and hard on his tabletop. Even with my making sure the humidity was at an appropriate level. I have been seeing little ridges appear before I started the coconut oil they, which they seem to be flatting out now after multiple applications.


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## glitch4200

Yvonne G said:


> I might use it on a Q-tip and only paint the new growth areas, not the whole shell. I sometimes notice the new growth to be pretty hard and dry, and I THINK it's supposed to be more pliable and softer. So that would be the only application I would use it for.
> 
> But I'm interested in watching your study. I love it when members share their ideas with us. And I try to have an open mind.



I appreciate the response. I am going to continue doing this for my little guy. And until I see something or find something through my research of extra virgin coconut oil that tells me that it is not good for them I will stop. But he seems to LOVE it , observation wise I am starting to see differences between non application and light controlled application. I will be happy to continue to debate I am very opinionated but I also take others opinions seriously as well. It helps me learn ,


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## glitch4200

glitch4200 said:


> The drying effects of the MVB, was found after reading a study on here with actual data I believe from Tom outlining the effects the mercury vapor bulb pulling the moisture deep from within the skin and shell of the tortoise, since usually there is layers of water vapor between our atmosphere that absorbs the harmful rays and doesn't wick away the moisture but with the bulbs being so close there is nothing to prevent that moisture from being taken from our little guys. I can't seem to find the thread I know someone has to know what I am talking about I read it multiple times here . It was a study done about the mvb and it's effects on the moisture. There was a lot of data gathered, that showed this effect. Turning the mvb on and instantly seeing the humidity drop. If anyone knows the thread I am speaking of could link it ?
> 
> I understand the hesitation and concern. Knowing the proper husbandry is ultimately the first step in taking care of the tortoise. But proper husbandry aside , I also know that my conclusions are all hear say without much scientific approach to it. The Benefits for humans is undeniable in my opinion. With much research done to back it up.
> Does everyone need to worry about fungus, not necessarily, but it's good to know that it can effectively combat. I trust natural products way more then I trust pharmaceuticals. Any day. If fungus was present I would DEFINITELY want try the ointment before giving him drugs that could harm him.
> My insistence on indoor care is strictly for those people who can not attain a safe outdoor enclosure for whatever reason and cannot get them outside as much as they should. Otherwise it is well known on here from reading so much the best habitat is a natural outdoor one with as much space is possible.
> My biggest concern is the ability to block some of uvb light and preventing from proper metabolization. but again my deal here is preventing the moisture loss from these baking bulbs. Which I was really convinced after reading about murcury vapor bulbs and there absorption of moisture. The fact that my ambient humidity is over 60 percent when my lights are off and the second my lights get turned on it drops significantly to the low 30s, at which point I must introduce proper humidity.. that tells me something.. and the dry lines on his shell, look like a lot the moisture is been zapped.. the shell got very very rough and hard on his tabletop. Even with my making sure the humidity was at an appropriate level. I have been seeing little ridges appear before I started the coconut oil they, which they seem to be flatting out now after multiple applications. I will post pictures of it. You can zee the diffeence. In terms of softening the keratin over time. Well yea.. you are moisturizing it , it will soften up just alittle. I have noticed a the dry lines have completely disappeared and his shell feels nice and hydrated still nice and strong , no soft spots at all.


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## glitch4200

This picture was taken 1 month after I got him. I got him Oct 16th 2013. I found this forum in February 2014, when my husbandry techniques completely changed. You can clearly see dryness all around , he was very dehydrated. His shell looked dehydrated and if it was dry on top it was most likely dry underneath at the cellular level. I also saw like flaking on the top of the scutes, peeling more or less. Which to me also indicated dehydration. Dehydration causes a host of problems according to this forum. It is like the root of most of the issues on here it seems.. the next picture is taken as of right now. Compare it . Huge diffeence. And I know his current state of his health. I know from x-ray (no stones/ healthy bone growth) and every possibly analysis was done at the vet very recently came out clear.


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## glitch4200

As of now.


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## glitch4200

Side shot as of now


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## glitch4200

Other didn't load


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## leigti

I know the application of moisturizers etc. to the tortoises shelf is a debatable topic. Like any other topic of this nature the only thing that's going to stop or affect the debate is a true scientific study. this has to include a control group and a situation where the only difference is the application of the oil. And there must be clear objective data gathered.this in and of itself is difficult and may take years. So I appreciate what you're doing and I think you're on the right track and please keep sharing your information. A few years from now there may be a decisive view on this topic.


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## glitch4200

exactly why I placed my post in the debatable topic section. I will continue to share my thoughts and views and personal experience with nibbles as long as yoy nice people allow me to post on here haha. And your absolutely right about not being able to draw definite conclusion without a true scientific study that's how the scientific world works to sway undeniable opinion. But i know that since he get at least 2-3 bath a week about 25 minute at a time and drinks from his water, he should be well hydrated. And these EVCO applications serve as to boost certain things I outlined in previous posts. I know not all agree but it's fun knowing how you all feel about my provoking opinions and actions. I swear I come with peace and love and only the best intentions haha


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## glitch4200

I found it ! This is the thread I am referring too. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/84606/


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## glitch4200

This thread explains the phenomenon of water being taken out of the skin and shell from beloeved tortoises from our indoor lamps. It correlates with pyramiding in the article in its explaination. This is one of the benefits I feel EVCO could apply to this particular problem..


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## Alaskamike

Fortunately since I'm in South Florida my torts are outside everyday in natural sunlight so I do not need UVB lights. I do think this attempt to experiment with a new product has merit for indoor torts. Especially for those raised in open top tables under UVB and basking lamps. 
Enclosed chambers with elevated humidity levels , soaking, water always available, have been shown over time to improve the desiccating effects of artificially light. This has been done by hobbyists experimenting with their own herds. Not a scientific based study - we won't get one of those. The $, times, & effort to set up a proper double blind study is not available. Our data is antidotal and we have to make broad assumptions of causal effects. But this is still good info and valid. Certainly convinced me to change my husbandry. And I'm a sceptic 

Having said that, I see no real downside to measured shell application. The OP has shown a definite shell improvement in his own tort. I don't believe application to the skin is a good idea however. 

The UVB lights D3 benefits are absorbed through the skin, not the shell. EVCO has a UVB blockage effect. I see no upside to putting it on their skin


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## glitch4200

Alaskamike said:


> Fortunately since I'm in South Florida my torts are outside everyday in natural sunlight so I do not need UVB lights. I do think this attempt to experiment with a new product has merit for indoor torts. Especially for those raised in open top tables under UVB and basking lamps.
> Enclosed chambers with elevated humidity levels , soaking, water always available, have been shown over time to improve the desiccating effects of artificially light. This has been done by hobbyists experimenting with their own herds. Not a scientific based study - we won't get one of those. The $, times, & effort to set up a proper double blind study is not available. Our data is antidotal and we have to make broad assumptions of causal effects. But this is still good info and valid. Certainly convinced me to change my husbandry. And I'm a sceptic
> 
> Having said that, I see no real downside to measured shell application. The OP has shown a definite shell improvement in his own tort. I don't believe application to the skin is a good idea however.
> 
> The UVB lights D3 benefits are absorbed through the skin, not the shell. EVCO has a UVB blockage effect. I see no upside to putting it on their skin



Ahh waking up to your belief that this has some merit to indoor captive torts made my day. I was thinking about the fact that the majority of information on here was probably NOT the result of a controlled scientific study that came to these unbiased conclusions. Encompassing the entirety of basic and advanced husbandry. Observational data from both amateur and profession tortoise keepers seem to have a lot of pull if articulated correctly in this forum. I am seeing results from controlled application. Even if it's observational, the majority of information here seems to be observational in nature anyway.. I agree with the fact that the skin probably will not benefit much from application, unless it's a localized dry spot using a qtip. I think I'll stop applying it to the skin , except maybe the top of his wittle head seems to get dry easily. Otherwise. I have gained even more confidence in this debatable topic


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## Elohi

I love coconut oil for many many reasons. I don't see why occasional shell application would be of concern but I wouldn't apply to the skin unless there is a minor wound or anomaly. I would be concerned with regular skin application due to the possibility of it interfering with the natural processes with the sun or artificial lighting(UVB). 
Also, has anyone used a temp gun to see if the skin or carapace gets warmer under the sun or while basking under artificial light vs. temps without oil application? I know oil on human skin will hold in heat....something to think about since we don't want them overheating.


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## glitch4200

Elohi said:


> I love coconut oil for many many reasons. I don't see why occasional shell application would be of concern but I wouldn't apply to the skin unless there is a minor wound or anomaly. I would be concerned with regular skin application due to the possibility of it interfering with the natural processes with the sun or artificial lighting(UVB).
> Also, has anyone used a temp gun to see if the skin or carapace gets warmer under the sun or while basking under artificial light vs. temps without oil application? I know oil on human skin will hold in heat....something to think about since we don't want them overheating.



I have a temp gun and I have been taking readings all day every day for weeks as I have been applying the oil and I see very little difference I'm the shell or skin . I was worried about that too. but it seems to me still that after many applications of oil and temp gun readinds at all diffeent times od the day the top of the shell does not really get extra heated or cool down for that matter.


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## glitch4200

I have the temperatures recorded with and without oil while basking under both the mvb and heat lamp since I have both .


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## glitch4200

i use a lot of info from here but i have pictures to show exactly what i am trying to relate with all this. 
*
"The infrared wavelengths of sunlight are almost all in the shorter wavelengths called IR-A. There is a small amount of IR-B but no IR-C. IR-A will gently warm through the entire body of a small reptile as it basks. Bigger ones will of course take a lot longer to warm up. *

*"There is something special about the IR-A from sunlight, though, that needs mentioning.
Our earth's atmosphere contains a great deal of moisture - water vapour and droplets - in the miles of atmospheric gas filtering the light from the sun. Water absorbs very specific wavelengths of the sun's radiation. When it absorbs this energy, it warms up. The wavelengths in the IR-A region that are absorbed by water can be detected very easily by looking at a spectrum of sunlight, in the IR-A region. Where the water has absorbed the IR-A, it is in effect "used up", and so is missing from the spectrum;"*





(imagine shell of a tortoise)






*"Indoors, we create IR-A with basking lamps (incandescent light bulbs, halogen bulbs, mercury vapour lamps and metal halides). Heat sources that do not also give off light, such as ceramic heaters, heat plates, and heat mats emit mainly longer wavelengths - IR-B and IR-C."*







*"You'll notice that the halogen lamp doesn't have the big dips in its spectrum, caused by several miles of water vapour and droplets taking out the energy from those wavelengths. The halogen lamp also has a lot more IR-B than sunlight, and it also has some IR-C. So when the tortoise basks under a basking lamp, he gets ALL the IR-A wavelengths, including the wavelengths that are missing from the sunlight, plus some IR-B and IR-C.
" But the IR-A wavelengths missing from sunlight are the wavelengths that are most readily absorbed by water molecules. Since the lamp is at most, 1-2ft above the tortoise, not several miles away, there cannot ever be enough atmospheric water vapour between him and the lamp to absorb those wavelengths. So where are the first water molecules those wavelengths encounter? ... inside the cells of the tortoise's carapace and skin! These immediately absorb the energy from those wavelengths of IR-A... creating heat in the carapace and skin."*

^---- Examples of my somewhat proof of the fact that we are robbing our tortoises of key moisture that is "normally NOT exhibted in there natural habitats in any part of the world. At which point I come to the conclusion of something like EVCO to block those drying effects that undoubtably exists in indoor kept enclosures, which many people who buy tortoises don't have the appropriate outdoor home anyways, even though its highly known bigger is better. You still want the IR-A to heat down to the furthest layers of the body for proper natural thermoregulation in the tortoise but you have to try and eliminate that effect of vaporizing the water present in the skin and shell... dehydration causes a lot of problem. But yet if a natural sunblock at 90% effiecency like EVCO is present does that eliminate that UNNATURAL effect of loosing that most needed water in the skin and shell of the tortoise.. I see a huge possibility that EVCO could block the unnatural drying effects of indoor used lamps. This would undoutably allow the indoor kept tortoise the proper heat it needs for thermoregulation NATURALLY as it would get in the outdoor enviornment since its shown that water vapor is taken out of the atmosphere and not out of the tortoise instead.


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## glitch4200

At which point if my premises are correcly stated above I can conclude that EVCO undeniably has merit to counteract the UNNATURAL effects from the close proximimity of the lamps used for proper thermo regulations in our indoor kept tortoise. Since we don't have miles of vapor needed for those iR-A rays it really can't be denied the fact that that moisture is taken from the shell and skin instead of the vapor in our atmosphere. If this evco being used as a sunblock doesn't block the good rays and blocks the bad effects of the lamps out , how can we not consider this as a legitimate answer to this issue. Am I wrong ?


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## glitch4200

If my conclusion is correct that means it would be a disservice to the indoor kept tortoise to NOT have EVCO applied consistently to prevent that unnatural moisture loss. At which point I can estimate to say 2 - 3 applications would be needed a week to protect the tortoise from the lights. Since to me it seems to take at least 2 - 3 days to absorb into the shell completely. Again am I wrong for pondering these conclusions ?


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## Elohi

glitch4200 said:


> If my conclusion is correct that means it would be a disservice to the indoor kept tortoise to NOT have EVCO applied consistently to prevent that unnatural moisture loss. At which point I can estimate to say 2 - 3 applications would be needed a week to protect the tortoise from the lights. Since to me it seems to take at least 2 - 3 days to absorb into the shell completely. Again am I wrong for pondering these conclusions ?



A disservice not to apply? I don't think I'd go so far as to say it's a disservice.


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## glitch4200

OK I can rephrase that . I feel in my opinion that if this is a legitimate issue with the drying effect of the lamps then if there is a natural oil that could help would it be in the best interest of the tortoise vs no application ? Any better?  I felt that last statement was harsh


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## Cowboy_Ken

Here's how I see it. Rather than looking for an external fix for possibly bad effects of husbandry, correcting the cause would be the better focus. Does this make sense?


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## zenoandthetortoise

I don't think that you are wrong to ponder these conclusions, but it does seem premature to leap to them. I may be missing a connection here, but there is a disconnect in your graphics. The first two show UV in relation to skin (UVB of course, is the driver of dermal Vitamin D production and UVA is well within the optical range of tortoises and is likely a compliment to the environment). The third graph and related text focus on the IR range, which is to say heat. To block IR (infrared) would require actual heat shielding which would seem well beyond the capabilities of any cream and unwanted even if achievable. Better just to provide a temperature gradient, I would think. Lastly, the third graph is somewhat tricky as the y axis coordinates are a ratio, and therefore unit-less. Note that 100, as in percent, is the limit. So the comparative values for solar spectral output vs. solar energy are relative to each other and not to the other sources listed, such as halogen. 
My point is not that your premise is incorrect or that your research isn't both interesting and helpful, but I do suggest a narrowed set of tested parameters and a more measured assumption of results.


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## glitch4200

zenoandthetortoise said:


> I don't think that you are wrong to ponder these conclusions, but it does seem premature to leap to them. I may be missing a connection here, but there is a disconnect in your graphics. The first two show UV in relation to skin (UVB of course, is the driver of dermal Vitamin D production and UVA is well within the optical range of tortoises and is likely a compliment to the environment). The third graph and related text focus on the IR range, which is to say heat. To block IR (infrared) would require actual heat shielding which would seem well beyond the capabilities of any cream and unwanted even if achievable. Better just to provide a temperature gradient, I would think. Lastly, the third graph is somewhat tricky as the y axis coordinates are a ratio, and therefore unit-less. Note that 100, as in percent, is the limit. So the comparative values for solar spectral output vs. solar energy are relative to each other and not to the other sources listed, such as halogen.
> My point is not that your premise is incorrect or that your research isn't both interesting and helpful, but I do suggest a narrowed set of tested parameters and a more measured assumption of results.



Your right. I jumped to different conclusions without much to go off of in terms of data observational or empirical. These are strictly my hypothesis to this subject. Which at any point please feel free to disprove my hypothesis and any premises I lay these conclusions on. I will be the first to say I am restricted in my knowledge in aspects of this debate. But if theories aren't established they can't be proven or disproven . Which after many many more months and years of observational data with this. I will still not be totally sure but be more inclined to lean towards a more backed up hypothesis.


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## glitch4200

zenoandthetortoise said:


> I don't think that you are wrong to ponder these conclusions, but it does seem premature to leap to them. I may be missing a connection here, but there is a disconnect in your graphics. The first two show UV in relation to skin (UVB of course, is the driver of dermal Vitamin D production and UVA is well within the optical range of tortoises and is likely a compliment to the environment). The third graph and related text focus on the IR range, which is to say heat. To block IR (infrared) would require actual heat shielding which would seem well beyond the capabilities of any cream and unwanted even if achievable. Better just to provide a temperature gradient, I would think. Lastly, the third graph is somewhat tricky as the y axis coordinates are a ratio, and therefore unit-less. Note that 100, as in percent, is the limit. So the comparative values for solar spectral output vs. solar energy are relative to each other and not to the other sources listed, such as halogen.
> My point is not that your premise is incorrect or that your research isn't both interesting and helpful, but I do suggest a narrowed set of tested parameters and a more measured assumption of results.



The first graph is showing the idea of the water vapor in our atmosphere and how it's needed to absorb some of the iR-A rays. That's was my intention for the first one. My second graph was only showing that IR-A is needed for deep heating not just topical heating from IR-B and IR-C. That's all for the second graph and the last graph was showing how there is no watrr vapor being absorbed from the lamp at all meaning it has to come from elsewhere. At least that is what I was trying to portray with using those graphs .


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## glitch4200

zenoandthetortoise said:


> I don't think that you are wrong to ponder these conclusions, but it does seem premature to leap to them. I may be missing a connection here, but there is a disconnect in your graphics. The first two show UV in relation to skin (UVB of course, is the driver of dermal Vitamin D production and UVA is well within the optical range of tortoises and is likely a compliment to the environment). The third graph and related text focus on the IR range, which is to say heat. To block IR (infrared) would require actual heat shielding which would seem well beyond the capabilities of any cream and unwanted even if achievable. Better just to provide a temperature gradient, I would think. Lastly, the third graph is somewhat tricky as the y axis coordinates are a ratio, and therefore unit-less. Note that 100, as in percent, is the limit. So the comparative values for solar spectral output vs. solar energy are relative to each other and not to the other sources listed, such as halogen.
> My point is not that your premise is incorrect or that your research isn't both interesting and helpful, but I do suggest a narrowed set of tested parameters and a more measured assumption of results.


 
I am not trying to block IR (infrared) known as heat as much as supply the IR-A rays some water molecules that are absent because the lack of appropriate atmospheric water vapor in the table tops of indoor habitats between the lamps and top if tortoise. That's why soaking is so important to replace lost water molecules in the tissue and beta keratin of tortoises . A point why this is so darn stressed here in this forum. But if the lights are on 12+ hours a day everyday is soaking 2 to 3 times a week really enough to counteract the fact of unnatural water absorption from IR-A rays from these lamps? I feel we could give them an edge to prevent this extra water loss by controlled application of EVCO.


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## Alaskamike

I agree that EVCO may present a solution for indoor enclosures with low humidity under lamps. Good job. 

However , I tried this once with mine. Looked great BTW. Shiny. 
Mine are raised in outdoor enclosures. Oldest 2 yo sulcata, 1 yo Aldabra


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## Alaskamike

.... And 3 yearling leopards. They have a heated hide / nightime box with a hound heater , no overhead lights and enjoy natural sunlight all year. 

I find that 4 days after application to shell ( only) that water still beads up when I soak. I believe this negates somewhat the absorption / she'll hydration. And for me with a humid South Florida environment it seems counter productive. 

I plan to continue to use this once per week on the plastron for its natural anti fungal and bacteria properties - but not on caprice. 
Mike


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## phebe121

I use coconut oil and i do it once every 2 weeks i still see it bead up when i wash them and they have alot of new growth to them


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## glitch4200

Alaskamike said:


> I agree that EVCO may present a solution for indoor enclosures with low humidity under lamps. Good job.
> 
> However , I tried this once with mine. Looked great BTW. Shiny.
> Mine are raised in outdoor enclosures. Oldest 2 yo sulcata, 1 yo Aldabra



It's nice to know that this could possibly be a great help in combination with proper husbandry and I totally see your point on the beading up, water and oil don't mix. But he has been getting bathed 3 times a week without much fuss and for the first time since I bought him a year ago I caught him actually physically drinking all cute like from his water dish. Never actually caught him doing it before. He looked at me like " yes that's right I'm drinking your ice cold water and I'm enjoying it too. "

With not needing lights and getting all the natural sunlight they do it does seem counterproductive for apply it other then for its other properties like anti bacteria/ antifungal. natural sunlight is the best. Unfortunately, Illinois suburbs are too dangerous for an outdoor enclosure. My backyard is huge and not fenced skunks and coons are huge problem. not risking it. So an inside habitat with direct supervised summer outside time is my only solution. Tomorrow is my next application of EVCO. I have noticed such a crazy color improvement all over his entire body since I started this. He's been more active then ever, sunbathing away in his favorite locations and greeting me when I come to pet him. He seems to like to sunbathe alittle longer then usual right after I apply it lol getting to about 98 degrees and passing out for hours if left undisturbed. I wonder what it feels like for him with vs without the oil if there is any difference in the way heat is distributed deep down. Hmm lol


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## glitch4200

So at 4pm yesterday nibbles got a bath for 25 minutes and i applied a nice layer of EVCO to his shell and the a small drop on top of his little head, it seemed dry. He enjoyed it of course. I really think I am seeing a smoothing of his scutes, totally just my opinion but I have compare and contrast pics to show you. You be the judge.. The lighting is different cuz the first pics of him are in his old habitat before I found this amazing forum and changed my tactics. There were a couple of scutes that seemed to "buckle" just a smidge along the very top of his vertebral and plueural scutes and it seems to have "smoothed out or flattened out" just a little bit.. But noticeable in my opinion.. Also the back bump and front bump seemed to be smoothing out as well.. Also and maybe it's just growth but I feel like the spacing between the scutes looks cleaner more defined lines then before less bunched up. He had an x-ray not to long ago and they gave me a copy of the disk and program and I was able to measure him with the measure tool in the program and he grew .5 inches since I got him last year in October. Here take a look, see for yourself.


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## glitch4200

The first 2 picture yoy can see the "buckling" type effect I am talking about and dryness.


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## glitch4200

Vs today's photos


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## glitch4200

Current habitat. Just redid it added Moss. Moved stuff around. He loved his new spot next to the turtle home and under the head lamp.


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## Yvonne G

It really does look like it's making a difference.


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## glitch4200

Yvonne G said:


> It really does look like it's making a difference.


 
I'm telling you.. This is legit. I wish you could see the difference instead of through pictures. It's insane. And it's been such a short period of time too less then 3 weeks. I started this mid October. I have always tried to keep proper humidity and I was bathing regularly since I got him but I have not seen the intensity of affects of those husbandry techniques as potent as application of EVCO multiple times weekly exp in the duration I have been doing this. Humidity control and frequent bathing weekly along with these applications seem to be really work well together. I'm sure there are skeptics out there that are reading this but personally I am seeing the results and that's all that matters to me. I'm glad others see the results too.. It's there. It really is there.


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## glitch4200

To give you guys an idea how quick moisture is taken from these lamps being on. I bought and soaked moss last night i turned on his lamps at 8am and by the time I got back from school at 12:15 pretty much all the moss in the enclosure was bone dry... I thought it was suppose to let off moisture gradually. It barely lasted 4 hours. My humidity this morning was at 61 percent and when I got back home it was back down to 30 percent.. and I just poured over a gallon .5 of water to rehydrate the substrate and it the humidity last night was like 95 percent. Those lamps guzzle h2o molecules from everything. And it's like a constant battle at keeping a proper humidity in an open table top. Which many people have here it seems in one fashion or another, so to say one can properly maintain a good humidity in a open table top must have some type of timd misting system spraying every little bit or they are constantly spaying a hefty amount of water multiple times a day at least personally that's the only way I can see it being done correctly and the the spraying is a constant battle per personal experiance... anyone else notice this dehydrating effect?


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## Yourlocalpoet

Is your research just based on MVBs exclusively? Is your set up open topped? 

It is very interesting what you're doing, just thinking that different lights and maintained humidity does the same thing essentially? 

I know you've mentioned anti fungal and cosmetic benefits etc, but I don't see these as 'saving a tortoise's life'.

Your Russian's colouring definitely look different and I applaud your efforts.


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## glitch4200

Yourlocalpoet said:


> Is your research just based on MVBs exclusively? Is your set up open topped?
> 
> It is very interesting what you're doing, just thinking that different lights and maintained humidity does the same thing essentially?
> 
> I know you've mentioned anti fungal and cosmetic benefits etc, but I don't see these as 'saving a tortoise's life'.
> 
> Your Russian's colouring definitely look different and I applaud your efforts.


 
I have a long tube uvb bulb, a MVB 100watt. And a 100watt, incandescent bulb. Hanging directly overhead the enclosure. About 12 inches from top of shell. My enclosure is open table top you can see in pictures above. The left light is MVB, and right light is incandescent. And across the middle light is UVB tube. My observations are a combination of the 3 since I can't differentiate between the drying effects empirically. I would think the bulbs that produce the most intense IR-A rays would absorb the most H2O molecules the fastest. Particularly the MVB... But I'm sure each light has some type of dehydrating affect on the tortoise and surrounding environment. 

The anti- properties of this oil could definitely save a life. Your talking about an organic all natural non toxic product with special acids that inhibit very effectively fungal, bacterial, and viral ailments that could be present in an environment. To say it can't be applied medically to help treat certain types of antifungal, bacterial or viral infections doesn't make any sense to me logically. Do you see many cases of fungal or bacterial infection? Probably not. But to know that an all natural product can potentially eliminate the need for pharmaceuticals in particular cases is all I need to know if the need arises. 

Would you rather take organically self sufficient medication with no alteration or known side effects or chemically altered medicine that has side effects and is harsh on your body? 

From reading a lot about medications they give tortoises on here and other sources it seems there is usually a harsh side effect associated with the medication. Or a downside to dosing them. If you can find the same problems about EVCO, I would love to know and would like to see the research backing that up. Humans have been using EVCO for thousands of years. If it was toxic or had side effects it would most likely be documented somewhere... 

My uncle just told me people he knows brush there teeth with this stuff...


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## Cowboy_Ken

While trying to maintain proper heat in an open top enclosure, the same affect of the escaping heat will be noted that is also happening with the moisture that you are trying to maintain. The cause here is not the lights in and of themselves, but the heat generated from these lights. I have no problem maintaining proper heat and humidity levels in my enclosed chambers. They are enclosed. Open top enclosures are just that. Open topped. The heat creates a chimney effect that takes the humidity away with it. This would happen regardless of your heat source if proper temps were maintained. The problem here is you are trying an old school method of keeping and then defending it by an application of oil on your tortoise and suggesting that the problem has been solved, where in reality you are using a bandaid solution to a negative habitat condition you created.


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## glitch4200

Cowboy_Ken said:


> While trying to maintain proper heat in an open top enclosure, the same affect of the escaping heat will be noted that is also happening with the moisture that you are trying to maintain. The cause here is not the lights in and of themselves, but the heat generated from these lights. I have no problem maintaining proper heat and humidity levels in my enclosed chambers. They are enclosed. Open top enclosures are just that. Open topped. The heat creates a chimney effect that takes the humidity away with it. This would happen regardless of your heat source if proper temps were maintained. The problem here is you are trying an old school method of keeping and then defending it by an application of oil on your tortoise and suggesting that the problem has been solved, where in reality you are using a bandaid solution to a negative habitat condition you created.



I am not saying the problem has been solved at all. I am saying it can benefit the tortoise when housed in an open table top indoor habitat with the lights we use, to prevent the drying affect I am noting. A huge chunk of people on this forum seem to have open table tops either glass or wood. I hardly call that old school keeping if a majority of people use that method. At which point this only relates the the idea of open table tops.. Of course the moisture escapes with the heat. Heat rises and the absorbed H20 goes with it... Without it being enclosed it equalizes in the atmosphere around the table top. You still are presented with the same problem in an enclosed enclosure if yoy use the lamps to heat and provide uvb that yoy would in an open top. Even if yoy could provide the appropriate humidity in am enclosed enclosure all the time without any issues like you said you do. 

It doesn't change the fact that the IR-A rays from the lamps don't have miles of atmospheric water vapor to absorb the h2o required to preventing the unnatural absorption of h2o in an enclosed or open top enclosure.... This simply isn't present in an outdoor natural enclosure where you do have naturall sunlight and huge amounts of vapor to absorb the harmful moisture sucking IR-A rays.. The open table top just provides another obstacle vs the enclosed table top in keeping consistent humidity.. But doesn't change the fact of unnatural water absorption from IR-A rays..


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## glitch4200

I am only applying this to people who* CANNOT* provide a NATURAL outdoor enclosure with sunlight and space for whatever reason preventing them for doing so. I would bet the majority of keepers of tortoises who do NOT have an outdoor enclosure when they first adopt, buy or receive a tortoise houses them indoors in some type of enclosure most likely being an open top one since its the most affordable option in many cases for people. I would bet just like myself that ALOT of nice people listened to the pet store and bought a small glass tank, pellet food, and fucked up bulbs and getting EXTREMELY little correct information on husbandry to raise that animal properly. If i was to care for him according to PETCO's standards nibbles would not last past 15 -25 years... if that and he would suffer greatly , and i would have ABSOLUTLY NO IDEA... these pictures i provided show the difference. At only 3 weeks I SEE RESULTS, This is not a solution but merely an additive to an ever expanding idea of correct husbandry techniques according to us humans. Understand we as humans took these creatures out of there natural habitat for whatever reason and are housing them as pets now for whatever reason. Husbandry in my opinoin is an idea of how WE THINK they should be best raised. When we have very little data on these creatures and how they SHOULD ACUTALLY be BEST RAISED. We just go off observation of there natural enviornment and make conclusions based on those observations to best say how they should be raised.... i present merely an idea to add to an ever changing concensus of correct husbandry techniques that we humans are creating to best care for these tortoises... we are not better qualified then evolution and nature to care for these tortoises but to not be open to new ideas of others will only harm our friends in captivity. just an elevated thought...


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## glitch4200

check this out, x-rays taken from not too long ago making sure there were no stones.


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## glitch4200

I was told he looks perfectly healthy according to these.


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## phebe121

That is really cool to seethat thanks.for sharing id get it printed and fram it on the wall


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## Cowboy_Ken

@glitch4200 
The bulk of new folks receive inadequate care information from chain pet stores as you mention. This doesn't mean it is the standard we should hold ourselves to. 
Simply stating that lots of people do something doesn't make it the norm or correct. 
On a side note, you don't pay for your electric do you?


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## glitch4200

Cowboy_Ken said:


> @glitch4200
> The bulk of new folks receive inadequate care information from chain pet stores as you mention. This doesn't mean it is the standard we should hold ourselves to.
> Simply stating that lots of people do something doesn't make it the norm or correct.
> On a side note, you don't pay for your electric do you?




Oh absolutely not, this forum is an example of a proper resource for the care of these tortoises. With a little research it's easy to find. My husbandry is getting to be the best it can be considering my space allowed, and it being indoors. Appropriate husbandry according to this forum is what I am trying to accomplish. Proper diet, lighting, places to hide, security , and preventing illness. What else is there? 

My pictures don't lie, you can see the difference in my old pictures and my recent pictures. 

If majority of people do do something and agree, as a whole we do tend create a norm to the collective.. of course they are exceptions.. but for the most part if most people do it .. it is considered a norm for most people. I legit took sociology last semester and went over this process lol 

I don't pay for electric but I know what it costs. I do what is needed in my home. I am 25 and I help provide to my family. I am pretty fortunate but that doesn't take away the knowledge of knowing what it costs to upkeep a tortoise. I provide all the money needed to care for him in every aspect.


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## Yourlocalpoet

glitch4200 said:


> I have a long tube uvb bulb, a MVB 100watt. And a 100watt, incandescent bulb. Hanging directly overhead the enclosure. About 12 inches from top of shell. My enclosure is open table top you can see in pictures above. The left light is MVB, and right light is incandescent. And across the middle light is UVB tube. My observations are a combination of the 3 since I can't differentiate between the drying effects empirically. I would think the bulbs that produce the most intense IR-A rays would absorb the most H2O molecules the fastest. Particularly the MVB... But I'm sure each light has some type of dehydrating affect on the tortoise and surrounding environment.
> 
> The anti- properties of this oil could definitely save a life. Your talking about an organic all natural non toxic product with special acids that inhibit very effectively fungal, bacterial, and viral ailments that could be present in an environment. To say it can't be applied medically to help treat certain types of antifungal, bacterial or viral infections doesn't make any sense to me logically. Do you see many cases of fungal or bacterial infection? Probably not. But to know that an all natural product can potentially eliminate the need for pharmaceuticals in particular cases is all I need to know if the need arises.
> 
> Would you rather take organically self sufficient medication with no alteration or known side effects or chemically altered medicine that has side effects and is harsh on your body?
> 
> From reading a lot about medications they give tortoises on here and other sources it seems there is usually a harsh side effect associated with the medication. Or a downside to dosing them. If you can find the same problems about EVCO, I would love to know and would like to see the research backing that up. Humans have been using EVCO for thousands of years. If it was toxic or had side effects it would most likely be documented somewhere...
> 
> My uncle just told me people he knows brush there teeth with this stuff...



Your post reads as though you've inferred I don't see the anti benefits of EVCO or that I've implies it may have toxic side effects - I'm not sure why you inferred that from my post, as didn't say it couldn't be applied medically to treat infection, fungal or viral; I said, the anti fungal advantages and the cosmetic ones it could provide, to me, seem like a bonus not a necessity for the average tortoise. 

Maybe I missed a post or got the wrong end of the stick, (please clarify if I have) but I didn't think we were talking about sick tortoises and treating them. You are talking about medication, and to me that's only required when there's a problem. 

My tortoise can only feasibly live outside for 2 months of the year but she's in an enclosed enclosure, and I have no problem maintaining heat and humidity and a temperature gradient, haven't in the past 11 years and don't have problems with the shell drying out.

I'm not in any way disputing the natural wonders of the coconut oil and your experiment is interesting and I hope you get the long term benefits you are seeking, I guess I just don't see the necessity, not daily anyway.


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## glitch4200

Yourlocalpoet said:


> Your post reads as though you've inferred I don't see the anti benefits of EVCO or that I've implies it may have toxic side effects - I'm not sure why you inferred that from my post, as didn't say it couldn't be applied medically to treat infection, fungal or viral; I said, the anti fungal advantages and the cosmetic ones it could provide, to me, seem like a bonus not a necessity for the average tortoise.
> 
> Maybe I missed a post or got the wrong end of the stick, (please clarify if I have) but I didn't think we were talking about sick tortoises and treating them. You are talking about medication, and to me that's only required when there's a problem.
> 
> My tortoise can only feasibly live outside for 2 months of the year but she's in an enclosed enclosure, and I have no problem maintaining heat and humidity and a temperature gradient, haven't in the past 11 years and don't have problems with the shell drying out.
> 
> I'm not in any way disputing the natural wonders of the coconut oil and your experiment is interesting and I hope you get the long term benefits you are seeking, I guess I just don't see the necessity, not daily anyway.


 
Yes you are correct I interpreted your response incorrectly. The anti- properties of the oil and cosmetic shine are only a bonus to tortoises not needed unless the ailments arise. I have never stated daily application. I stated at max 3 applications in a week for a weathered tortoise and 2x a week regularly at bath time. 

It seems impossible given the concept of the way IR-A rays work and there absorption of moisture to tell me in 11 years that those lamps have had no affect on drying your tortoises shell and skin. Even with established humidity and temp control. Those lights are at most 12-14 inches from the top of the shell. To tell me that those IR_A rays are not absorbing UNATURALL AMOUNTS of moisture goes against the collective knowledge of how these rays work. also understanding that these moisture sucking rays are NOT present in the outside natural habitat cuz of miles of water vapor directly leads me to believe that any amount of time under those lights without some type of protection is providing an unnatural environment hence dehydrating the tortoise. Your enclosed enclosure helps to prevent some of the dehydrating affects of the lamps by providing a stable moistured environment vs an unstable moistured enviornment like a open table top. But it still doesn't address the moisture loss by the lamps..


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## Yourlocalpoet

glitch4200 said:


> Yes you are correct I interpreted your response incorrectly. The anti- properties of the oil and cosmetic shine are only a bonus to tortoises not needed unless the ailments arise. I have never stated daily application. I stated at max 3 applications in a week for a weathered tortoise and 2x a week regularly at bath time.
> 
> It seems impossible given the concept of the way IR-A rays work and there absorption of moisture to tell me in 11 years that those lamps have had no affect on drying your tortoises shell and skin. Even with established humidity and temp control. Those lights are at most 12-14 inches from the top of the shell. To tell me that those IR_A rays are not absorbing UNATURALL AMOUNTS of moisture goes against the collective knowledge of how these rays work. also understanding that these moisture sucking rays are NOT present in the outside natural habitat cuz of miles of water vapor directly leads me to believe that any amount of time under those lights without some type of protection is providing an unnatural environment hence dehydrating the tortoise. Your enclosed enclosure helps to prevent some of the dehydrating affects of the lamps by providing a stable moistured environment vs an unstable moistured enviornment like a open table top. But it still doesn't address the moisture loss by the lamps..



Cool, thanks for that.
Again though, I didn't tell you that the IR-A rays are not absorbing an unnatural amount of moisture, I didn't even hint at disputing that. I don't know enough about it, but I do understand relatively basic physics.

What I'm saying is that, my tortoise's shell is not 'weathered'. It's not as dry as the photos of your 'before application' Russian, if you like, so for me personally I don't see the necessity in using the coconut oil regularly. 

Perhaps if my enclosure were open topped and I had 3 or 4 lights in there, I would. As it stands, in my current set up, my tortoise is well hydrated, (a lack of urates also leads me to believe this) with no outward signs of shell or skin dehydration.


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## glitch4200

11 years and not once did you see dryness? How? What lights are you using? After many months under one 100watt MVB and 100 watt incandescent light. I saw dryness all over and a huge difference in there skin and shell color shape and look compared to now. Pictures shown in this thread show the difference and it's only been like 3 weeks.


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## glitch4200

If you feel this doesn't benefit your particular circumstances then so be it. You dont need to listen to me or my opinions. I am not here to change the way you personally care for your tortoise . I am looking for new ideas that we as humans have not thought of yet to make our companions thrive to the best to their ability. I am merely presenting my case. I see a problem with indoor set ups enclosed or open table top that allows these lamps to take much needed Moisture away from indoor kept tortoises. For anyone to say that you know how hydrated a tortoise is just guessing based on observation. And is probably inaccurate Many .many years ago we thought animal protein was the proper diet for tortoises. And of course that couldn't be farther from the truth. Maybe we are wrong to think no harm comes from indoor enclosures and the baking affects of these lights.


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## Yourlocalpoet

glitch4200 said:


> If you feel this doesn't benefit your particular circumstances then so be it. You dont need to listen to me or my opinions. I am not here to change the way you personally care for your tortoise . I am looking for new ideas that we as humans have not thought of yet to make our companions thrive to the best to their ability. I am merely presenting my case. I see a problem with indoor set ups enclosed or open table top that allows these lamps to take much needed Moisture away from indoor kept tortoises. For anyone to say that you know how hydrated a tortoise is just guessing based on observation. And is probably inaccurate Many .many years ago we thought animal protein was the proper diet for tortoises. And of course that couldn't be farther from the truth. Maybe we are wrong to think no harm comes from indoor enclosures and the baking affects of these lights.



I completely agree, which is why I said in my first post that I applaud your endeavours. It is obvious from your posts that you are passionate about this topic, and to me it seems like as a result you are taking my interest and debate as some kind of attack? I'm not in any way trying to debunk your observations/research or simply sit ignorant to further understanding, I am for the most part just trying to understand the method and offering a different perspective.

I wonder if you'd consider setting your tortoise up in an enclosed habitat to see the difference it makes to humidity levels and drying effects? In the summer I run one incandescent light bulb (45w I think) and a 50w CHE on a thermostat at night. That's it. In the winter I have an 80w MVB and the same CHE at night. In a closed habitat my need for those moisture sucking lights is decreased, thus less light/heat to dehydrate. Humidity varies from 50 - 70 depending on water spillage, pee, plant watering etc. When she was a baby - juvenile I used a heating pad only in the summer as all UV was from outside and in the winter, the lowest watt incandescent I could find and a tube UVB light. I have always had a closed chamber. Perhaps this is why I have never had any noticeable dry shell problems? Of course her shell gets dry occasionally, but that's true indoors or out. 

I don't think the animal protein/ hydration analogy is quite true. Optimal humidity, soaking and a lack of urates, for me does tell me my reptile is hydrated. That is what I can see so I don't think my observation is inaccurate. Her pretty smooth shell and not one single problem or vet visit since she was a baby also gives me some kind of confirmation that my husbandry is adequate. 

Regardless, it's interesting all the same.


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## glitch4200

Taken from here. From Testudoresearch

"Keratin has many interesting and valuable properties. One of these is that it is hygroscopic and takes up water in equilibrium with atmospheric humidity (Spearman, 1973). *Keratin becomes notably pliable in the presence of high humidity and high temperatures *(Shelley, 1954). This property was routinely exploited in the working of objects made from tortoiseshell, obtained from the carapace of the critically endangered Hawksbill turtle (Eretmochelys imbricata). The same property will also be familiar to anyone who takes a hot bath: human toe and fingernails respond in a similar manner. Veterinary problems associated with â€œwet footâ€ are also common in equines, where the keratin of the hoof may become over soft and vulnerable to trauma and infection if the animal is maintained on an excessively wet substrate (Reca, 2005). Similar issues have been identified with the beta-keratin of Ostrich claws when subjected to varying levels of ambient humidity (Bonser, 2000).* Studies conducted on a wide range of keratins suggest that at relative humidity levels above 80% and below 20% profound changes in both the molecular structure and mechanical properties of keratins occur *(Leeder and Watt, 1965, Duer, et.al. 2003). At levels of relative *humidity above 80%* absorption of water molecules by keratin is considerable (Leeder and Watt, 1965), and this has a very significant effect upon the mechanical properties of the scute, resulting in a major degree of softening and reduction in stiffness. The effect of increasing humidity on the Youngâ€™s modulus of keratin was profound, with 410MPa at 100% RH and 3.36 GPa at 53% RH. (Bonser, 2002). T*he effect of humidity on a wide range of keratins shows a consistent reduction in stiffness and in hardness as humidity and hydration is increased *(Fraser and MacRea, 1980, Tombolato, et. al 2010). These effects occur both in vitro and in vivo. In living animals with a horny keratinised hoof or scute, the interior of the keratin layer, adjoining the proximal germinative region, maintains a high level of hydration, and the* outer surface (unless the animal is in water) will attempt to equilibriate to the lower, prevailing ambient level *(Bertram and Gosline, 1987). The thicker the keratin layer the greater the potential for an increased differential between the two surfaces.

*OK.... we now, for the first time have a direct and verifiable link between a tortoise's tissue and external environmental humidity.*

So, when we subject a tortoise to very low external humidity, the very molecular structure of the keratin changes. It becomes stiffer and exerts a mechanical stress on the underlying bone. This becomes most acute if RH drops to circa 20%. Precisely those conditions do often exist directly beneath heat lamps. RH there can be _incredibly_ low. I have recorded levels of 11%..... for sustained periods. This is far below what any 'desert' species would experience in nature. In addition... when discussing all this with Frances Baines (of the UV Guide), Frances alerted me to the fact that with the exception of some very special medical lamps, all normal reptile incandescent lamps are emitting high levels of IR-A. I will quote Frances directly:

_"Sunlight (aldo) emits short-wavelength infrared (IR-A) which is filtered by the water vapour in the atmosphere. So it has been "drained" of energy in the wavelengths best absorbed by water.... in other words, the wavelengths which heat up water most strongly have already been removed from the sunlight before it hits the tortoise. The remaining wavelengths of IR-A penetrate gently and deeply into skin, muscle and bone and can warm an animal -literally - to the core. This beautiful "water-filtered IR-A" is what makes sunlight the perfect basking light.... as Andy says, warming the entire basking animal evenly and deeply.

On the other hand, incandescent lamps, halogen lamps, self-ballasted mercury vapour lamps, so-called "infrared" red bulbs... any lamp producing heat and light - also emit IR-A ...BUT.... there is only a tiny distance, usually less than a couple of feet, between lamp and reptile. You'd need maybe a mile of atmosphere to absorb those water-heating wavelengths.... So where is the first water those rays from a lamp encounter? Yep.... The water in and around the living cells of the reptile's skin, or in the case of the tortoise, in the living cells of its carapace"._

So there we have another intense drying effect. Heating and driving water molecules from the keratin. I actually have a lot of data on this, but it is not really necessary to go into it in depth here.

The basic situation is quite simply that if you "bake" keratin you dry it. The drier it gets, the stuffer it gets, and the more mechanical stress it can exert on underlying, plastic bone. This is one explanation of why these ultra-dry enclosures are so especially damaging and are so frequently associated with very severe forms of "pyramiding". 

One very interesting effect has been demonstrated in laboratory tests with chelonia. As they are subjected to extended periods of dehydration, the epidermis thickens in an attempt to reduce cutaneous evaporative losses. This affects the skin of the limbs, and in particular the proliferation of beta-keratin that comprises the horny scutes. *As the animal is subjected to dehydration, the scute growth accelerates, becoming ever thicker. Bone growth however does not accelerate at the same rate, producing a major differential.* This thickened, dry keratin begins to exert an enormously amplified force upon the skeleton (which in such animals is typically of very poor density). This is one other very important reason why we tend to see particularly badly deformed animals that have been raised in conditions of sub-optimal humidity. *Where accelerated growth (and typically MBD) meets dangerously low levels of humidity the conditions are ideal for producing gross distortions of the carapace* due to the conflicting physical stresses of muscular tension and tension resulting from over-proliferation of the keratin scutes.

Take the reverse situation. Subject the tortoise to high (80%+) levels of ambient humidity for extended periods. Keep it very warm. Soak/spray the carapace regularly. This too has a huge effect on the keratin as we have read above. It softens it. _It changes the Young's Modulus dramatically._ Physical stresses on the underlying bone are reduced.... the bones are not "pulled out of shape" by the keratin, and over-thick keratin is not generated. _This is the prime physiological mechanism behind the "high humidity" maintenance system. 

One big issue however, is that it can have the consequence of suppressing a symptom of MBD, while doing nothing to address the underlying situation. I say 'can'. I am not saying this is always or automatically the case. It is a risk, though. It can happen. It does not have any effect upon the need to generate high quality bone in the first place. If your nutrition or UVB is not adequate, MBD will still occur. The underlying bone will still be weak - even if it is not visibly deformed. All this does is remove or reduce the physical stress from keratin - it has no other effect.

Another potential problem is that wet keratin is much more vulnerable to bacterial and fungal attack. Again, human toenails can suffer for the same reasons! It is not an inevitable consequence, but it is most certainly a risk.. and I have seen such problems. 

A quick summary to date.

Keratin proliferates differently between most aquatic turtles and terrestrial tortoises.

Keratin responds dramatically to changes in humidity and temperature (this is why human hairs were often used in humidity measuring devices).

If the bone is compromised due to MBD, or is very flexible as a result of new growth or the young age of the animal, it will deform far more readily than in a fully developed, older animal.

The specific stresses upon the underlying bone relating to keratin are two-fold; the proliferation of new beta-keratin cells at the edges of the scute that result in an uplifting force (Alibardi) on the older corneous center, and tensions resulting from expansion and contraction as a consequence of hydration status. Where the keratin has an excessively low moisture content and becomes stiff these stresses will be maximised, and where the moisture content is excessively high they will be minimised, as the keratin becomes increasingly soft and pliable." _


*This is what i am talking about and how its all connected.... Its laid out 100000% better then i could ever say.. Does anyone else see what i am trying to connect here?! How i believe something like EVCO can help make our animals thrive if used correctly..*


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## glitch4200

Taken from here. By Testudoresearch

"Tom said:
For example, the info about the drying nature of our indoor heat bulbs. I knew it was bad, but I didn't know it was THAT bad."

"Yes, these heatlamps. They bother me. It bothers me even more I used them for years myself without fully understanding what they could do. Here's just one test result that shows how drastic their effect can be. We started here with 70% RH in an open room. We placed a 100w MVB lamp at 50 cm above 'ground zero' then ran an extended on-off cycle test. 'Ground zero' is where your tortoise would sit. Right under it. The peaks are ambient... the 'troughs' are switched-on periods. Note how it falls almost immediately... and stays there (<20% in this test) before rising again when turned off. Then plummeting down again the next time it is tuned on. 







I call that pretty drastic, and frankly - scary. I freely confess when we started getting that data, that was the last time I personally used a basking lamp like that. Thousands of keepers are subjecting their tortoises to this every day and have no idea. When you add in Frances Baines' incredibly valuable observations on the unfiltered IR-A spectrum, it gets even worse. No wonder we are seeing a virtual 'epidemic' of deformed animals.

Not only that.... but you can see from this IR Thermograpy image that I took during the same test just how the very top of the carapace OVER heats... yet the body remains too cold. The heat distribution (especially in a tortoise of reasonable mass) is absolutely terrible. 






At the same ambient background temperature (22C) this is the heat distribution pattern under natural sunlight, outdoors.






There is no comparison. It is completely different..... ""



ANYONE ELSE CONVINCED YET?!!


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## Aunt Caffy

I think my Rowan needs some. It's just an excuse to touch his shell. 

Do you apply it to the plastron as well?


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## glitch4200

taken from here By: Testudoresearch

"Highly concentrated, narrow beam basking sources are without a doubt in my mind _seriously _problematic from several perspectives. We do face the practical difficulty than an 'ideal' alternative is not yet readily available. So we are looking at a compromise in indoor settings. If using lamps do not use them at too close a range and use the widest beam spread possible. Investigate alternatives such as 'dark' IR sources - large area panel radiators, for example. I am actually running some tests on those at the moment. They have some promise. They do need to be used in combination with a separate UVB source, of course. The idea is to avoid localized surface over-heating (and drying) with poor deep tissue penetration. What we really _need _is a directional, but very wide area source, with a good IR spectrum... ideally with water-filtered IR-A... but this just does not exist yet in any accessible form. Bottom line: we do not have a fully satisfactory solution yet. A lot of work has been done on artificial UVB, but this problematic IR issue has been pretty much ignored. That needs to change. 

What you _must _avoid is this situation. 100w basking lamp humidity RH effect... down to 14.8% in this instance. 






(that tiny peak you see there at exactly 11.00 am is surface evaporation seconds after the lamp is turned on... water molecules being driven off and out of your tortoise... then the levels drop through the floor and stay there until turned off)

and this... 






instead... this is what we _should _see (wild tortoise thermography research)


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## glitch4200

Said by : Testudoresearch
_"The specific stresses upon the underlying bone relating to keratin are two-fold; the proliferation of new beta-keratin cells at the edges of the scute that result in an uplifting force (Alibardi) on the older corneous center, and tensions resulting from expansion and contraction as a consequence of hydration status. Where the keratin has an excessively low moisture content and becomes stiff these stresses will be maximised, and where the moisture content is excessively high they will be minimised, as the keratin becomes increasingly soft and pliable." _










* My opinoin: I see a slight beginning to an uplifting "buckling effect" along the edges of the scutes around the vertebral and left sided scutes meeting those vertebral scutes. These first 2 pictures are when i first obtained this little guy mid october 2013. The last 2 pictures are taken as of yesterday after 3 weeks of EVCO and way way improved husbandry. You use to be able to feel the "bucking" along these ridges whereas now after only 3 weeks of EVCO application and more frequent soaking they seemed to have smoothed out a bit, take a look at this picture and you can see the differnece of the flattening of the edges personally through observation. Notice the differnce in color of the shell and body and how much more hydrated they look, the spacing of scutes, the absence of white dry lines, the corners that don't seem to "buckle" anymore. Notice the eyes and how they look way more hydrated. Notice the scales and there rich color now.. To me these are undeniable observations of positive effects from extra virgin coconut oil and its ability to help counteract the damage these lamps are causing.







*


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## glitch4200

So my family dog had a mild bacterial rash under his arms pits we took him to the vet. I have been fighting for EVCO it's amazing beneficial qualities on this thread for our tortoises and I told the vet and her team about Extra virgin coconut oil and it's antifungal and bacterial qualities. She was very interested in this natural product and if it could be applied to dogs and she decided to do a bunch or research along with talk to other vet professionals. A dermatologist who works at the place was very intrigued on my find gave the green light for application to Oliver my Nana dog. In 3 days of application it completely eradicated the bacterial rash. When the topical antibiotic didn't work. Needless to say the vets will now be using EVCO on their cats and dogs for mild bacterial and fungal infections instead of pharmaceuticals as a first line of defence... all thanks to pointing out this awesome information. I will be posting an update with pictures tomorrow on these evco applicstions but this goes to show I am on the right track with this natural oils potency and ability to be beneficial to ALL Animals


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## glitch4200

So I have here another notable observation since I started these weekly Extra virgin coconut oil applications. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I wanted to see it these applications lessened the stress of the shell from the drying effects of the lamps as well as seeing if it has any effect on to further smooth out his shell, particularly this dent that he has on the back corner scute was very prominent when I got him but after taking pictures this morning I see a noticeable difference in this particular scute. It's rounding out.. and becoming more flush with the other scutes .. the divet is noticeably smaller then before. I took took a few pictures at different angles to show this. It's pretty cool ..


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## Alaskamike

I've been watching this thread very carefully. Your research has been very good , at least the background info which is well grounded. There is no doubt in my mind that the overhead UVB lights have serious flaws in replacing sunlight and heat. The concerns that applying EVCO is not " natural" have been answered well, considering indoor keeping of torts is not " natural" either. 

It has been argued that basking areas need to have overhead heat to hit top of caprice , as this best simulates natural heat from the sun. But as you have amply explained , the drying effects from this are substantial, even in a relatively humid enclosure. 

Being in South Florida myself, and raising my torts in an outside area with a heated box to go in when cold, this is not a problem I really have to contend with. The sun is out almost everyday and even on the coolest days they come out and sit for awhile in the sunshine. However , when I did have my baby leopards indoors at night I used a heating pad ( made for people ) under the coco- coir to keep their enclosed container at 85 with 80% humidity while they slept. I don't know why, but I've never been a fan of the heat lamps. 

I have to say, after reading and following your experiment in husbandry ( antidotal as it is) I would be using EVCO once a week on the caprice if I raised them indoors. I do put it on their plastron once a week here for the anti bacterial and anti fungal properties now. 

I believe you're on to something here. Good work. . 
Mike


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## glitch4200

Alaskamike said:


> I've been watching this thread very carefully. Your research has been very good , at least the background info which is well grounded. There is no doubt in my mind that the overhead UVB lights have serious flaws in replacing sunlight and heat. The concerns that applying EVCO is not " natural" have been answered well, considering indoor keeping of torts is not " natural" either.
> 
> It has been argued that basking areas need to have overhead heat to hit top of caprice , as this best simulates natural heat from the sun. But as you have amply explained , the drying effects from this are substantial, even in a relatively humid enclosure.
> 
> Being in South Florida myself, and raising my torts in an outside area with a heated box to go in when cold, this is not a problem I really have to contend with. The sun is out almost everyday and even on the coolest days they come out and sit for awhile in the sunshine. However , when I did have my baby leopards indoors at night I used a heating pad ( made for people ) under the coco- coir to keep their enclosed container at 85 with 80% humidity while they slept. I don't know why, but I've never been a fan of the heat lamps.
> 
> I have to say, after reading and following your experiment in husbandry ( antidotal as it is) I would be using EVCO once a week on the caprice if I raised them indoors. I do put it on their plastron once a week here for the anti bacterial and anti fungal properties now.
> 
> I believe you're on to something here. Good work. .
> Mike



Mike, I highly appreciate your valued support with my amateur research. To be honest I am blown a way this is working out like it is and being able to actually contribute to the tortoise community instead of just being a watcher of "threads" makes me really happy. 

I want to set my hypothesis in stone on this thread right now. 

*As previously laid out in earlier threads (scroll up) we can conclude the following based on backround researched info:

1. All IR-A producing lamps that are 1-2 ft above a enclosed chamber or open chamber table top have sustained humidity at very low "unnatural", "unhealthy" levels while turned on. (See graphs above)

2. In ANY indoor enclosure with the use of these lights , there is not enough atmospheric water vapor between the top of the tortoise and the base of lights for there to be sufficient absorption of water by IR-A rays to prevent "unfiltered" IR-As from leeching mass amounts of moisture from the shell and skin.

3. Unrefined Cold pressed extra virgin coconut oil is an all natural anti bacterial, anti fungal, anti inflammatory due to certain acids present in its oil. Its proven to enhance hair, nails and skin in humans going back thousands of years. Cellular abortion is excellent. It has also shown to have 90% efficiency as a sunblock against uv, uvb rays. It has also shown significant ability to help keratin effectively retain moisture (personal obsetvstion).

4. Observational data: I see maybe a couple degree difference in thermo regulation once EVCO is applied to shell vs not applying. But according to my temp readings it's very minimal difference. No extreme difference noticed after almost 4 weeks of application. I have noticed substancial difference in carapace and skin , in terms of color, softness, absence or dry lines, a reduction or flattening on noticeable divets in the shell. I have also noticed a lot more activity since application (related or not?)

So to wrap this up. I am stating with my premises backed up. That all indoor kept tortoises of every species that is exposed to these lights for extended periods of time and does not have access to an all natural outdoor enclosure the majority of the year with plenty of "filtered" IR-A should undeniably apply extra virgin coconut oil at bath time 2-3 times a week for the remainder of there indoor captivity to help ease the unnatural moisture loss and prolong there life. I can now say again with backed up research that not doing so seems to be a disservice to our lovely friends.


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## glitch4200

Moving forward... Unless someone out there reading this with knowledge on this issue, can find holes in the argument laid out in this thread. I would hope you call me out! I have tried to cement this idea and back all that I am saying up with real legit facts and data. I feel strongly in this hypothesis. It's a bold statement. But honestly I feel I could be missing something .. and I probably am. If you know what it is please do tell lol.. ! I am 25 years young and I dang well know I have a load to learn still. Enlighten me!
- Shaun


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## tortadise

I have not read the entire thread to be honest. But can I attempt to decided in a few sentences of what your doing? 

Are you applying coconut oil to your tortoises shell in relation to Andys(testudoresearch) discrediting of research of uneven allocated heat from basking bulbs? 

If so. This would be an interested test. Coconut oil is very good stuff. We use it for lots of things here. So does my mom. In nature tortoises are not as clean, as they would be in captivity like we keep. They cover themselves with layers of mud, some have moss that grows on them to cover there carapace. 

Am I on the right track with your purpose? I'll eventually go back and read all of it.

Another thing you could try is clay. My mom being a doctor of natural medicines/remedies utilizes a very scarce "green clay" that comes from a dried up sea bed in France. This stuff is fantastic, and very rich in minerals and vitamins and antioxidants. I have used this on chelonians. But never the carapace or shell. I'd imagine using it on a tortoises shell would benefit somehow. But I wonder what the ramifications of applying anything on the tortoises carapace could be? Wouldn't we thing it would need some sort of exposure to elements to gain proper exposure of UV rays, fresh oxygen, water(rain) etc...

Just some thoughts on my behalf.


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## glitch4200

tortadise said:


> I have not read the entire thread to be honest. But can I attempt to decided in a few sentences of what your doing?
> 
> Are you applying coconut oil to your tortoises shell in relation to Andys(testudoresearch) discrediting of research of uneven allocated heat from basking bulbs?
> 
> If so. This would be an interested test. Coconut oil is very good stuff. We use it for lots of things here. So does my mom. In nature tortoises are not as clean, as they would be in captivity like we keep. They cover themselves with layers of mud, some have moss that grows on them to cover there carapace.
> 
> Am I on the right track with your purpose? I'll eventually go back and read all of it.
> 
> Another thing you could try is clay. My mom being a doctor of natural medicines/remedies utilizes a very scarce "green clay" that comes from a dried up sea bed in France. This stuff is fantastic, and very rich in minerals and vitamins and antioxidants. I have used this on chelonians. But never the carapace or shell. I'd imagine using it on a tortoises shell would benefit somehow. But I wonder what the ramifications of applying anything on the tortoises carapace could be? Wouldn't we thing it would need some sort of exposure to elements to gain proper exposure of UV rays, fresh oxygen, water(rain) etc...
> 
> Just some thoughts on my behalf.


 
Yes you are close .. Once you read the entire thing you will see how this developed into what it is now lol and this is why I love others input..

I didn't even mean to relate thermoregulation with Andys research and or even trying to discredit the fact that you can't achieve even heating as shown in his graphs. I wasn't even thinking of that..

That is a very interesting point though.. I have not seen the uneven heating displayed as extreme as shown in the graph.. Although I don't have the equipment to take that type of reading as he did. I based my temperatures off an IR gun I purchased, it works very well. I take temp readings constantly all day every day when I am home... His habitat is located by the base of my bed where I often have my smoke sessions. I have never seen such extreme differences. But I have my habitat laid out so he can cover any part of his body and still be exposed to the basking spot. So he can choose whatever way to heat up without having to stand directly underneath it heating just the very top of the caraspace. My thinking is weird.. 

Well, if the ramifications where there we should see some evidence in humans since we have been using it for ourselves for different aspects for a very long time. I know the ramifications of dehydration over a long period after doing much research here. I'll take the risk of these applications over not applying this oil for the rest of his life. 

In terms of breathability, uv/uvb absorption and water. 

I feel as though if it didn't allow for oxygen transfer you would see that and we as humans would probably not benefit since our skin and cells need oxygen to be healthy. If EVCO inhibited that process it wouldn't it kinda be detrimental to the whole idea of care? 

I believe it was mentioned on here that since uvb, uv rays are absorbed by the skin not the shell that it wouldn't inhibit that process unless applied to the skin? Is that correct? 

Also it was noted earlier that and I confirmed it as well that application of the oil to the shell repels water for a little bit, i definetly see that. But if they are being soaked 3x a week and are drinking from there water knowingly. I can assume he is pretty well hydrated. 

I would love to get my hands on that green clay. Where can I obtain some?


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## tortadise

glitch4200 said:


> Yes you are close .. Once you read the entire thing you will see how this developed into what it is now lol and this is why I love others input..
> 
> I didn't even mean to relate thermoregulation with Andys research and or even trying to discredit the fact that you can't achieve even heating as shown in his graphs. I wasn't even thinking of that..
> 
> That is a very interesting point though.. I have not seen the uneven heating displayed as extreme as shown in the graph.. Although I don't have the equipment to take that type of reading as he did.  I based my temperatures off an IR gun I purchased, it works very well. I take temp readings constantly all day every day when I am home... His habitat is located by the base of my bed where I often have my smoke sessions. I have never seen such extreme differences. But I have my habitat laid out so he can cover any part of his body and still be exposed to the basking spot. So he can choose whatever way to heat up without having to stand directly underneath it heating just the very top of the caraspace. My thinking is weird..
> 
> Well, if the ramifications where there we should see some evidence in humans since we have been using it for ourselves for different aspects for a very long time. I know the ramifications of dehydration over a long period after doing much research here. I'll take the risk of these applications over not applying this oil for the rest of his life.
> 
> In terms of breathability, uv/uvb absorption and water.
> 
> I feel as though if it didn't allow for oxygen transfer you would see that and we as humans would probably not benefit since our skin and cells need oxygen to be healthy. If EVCO inhibited that process it wouldn't it kinda be detrimental to the whole idea of care?
> 
> I believe it was mentioned on here that since uvb, uv rays are absorbed by the skin not the shell that it wouldn't inhibit that process unless applied to the skin? Is that correct?
> 
> Also it was noted earlier that and I confirmed it as well that application of the oil to the shell repels water for a little bit, i definetly see that. But if they are being soaked 3x a week and are drinking from there water knowingly. I can assume he is pretty well hydrated.
> 
> I would love to get my hands on that green clay. Where can I obtain some?


Ah yes very good indeed, I shall read through the entire thing and hopefully come back with more constructive verbiage. I was close though ha. I actually don't know much about the shell and it's anatomical relation to oxygen, mineral absorption etc.. I merely just used it for an example. It would be interesting to find out though, Andy did explain the "plasticity" level of keratin growth. During the new growth I'd like assume that UV particles would and could be absorbed into the fresh layer of "soft" new keratin growth, after all when comparing keratin growth in rhinos, and even humans vitamin d and lack of internal minerals can develop both finger nails and rhino horns with issues. So this could be possibly relevant to this coconut oil usage and it's relative beneficial possible gain of usage. That's definitely above my head. But none the less a good point to research. 

I can ask my mom and steer you in the direction where to get some. It's good stuff.


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## glitch4200

tortadise said:


> Ah yes very good indeed, I shall read through the entire thing and hopefully come back with more constructive verbiage. I was close though ha. I actually don't know much about the shell and it's anatomical relation to oxygen, mineral absorption etc.. I merely just used it for an example. It would be interesting to find out though, Andy did explain the "plasticity" level of keratin growth. During the new growth I'd like assume that UV particles would and could be absorbed into the fresh layer of "soft" new keratin growth, after all when comparing keratin growth in rhinos, and even humans vitamin d and lack of internal minerals can develop both finger nails and rhino horns with issues. So this could be possibly relevant to this coconut oil usage and it's relative beneficial possible gain of usage. That's definitely above my head. But none the less a good point to research.
> 
> I can ask my mom and steer you in the direction where to get some. It's good stuff.



I wouldn't doubt that your correct. I don't doubt that these rays would not penatrate new pliable keratin, considering what I have read so far. 

I appreciate the opinion. 
Maybe I am wrong. But I ask myself what about very well hydrated shells? Could ultra hydrated tortoises and their shells allow for a more effective absorption of uv rays from these lamps in there shell while captive indoors since coconut oil seems to promote hydration which leads to softer more receptive keratin? Keratin is hydroscopic and absorbs water very well but also looses water to.. Could EVCO make it more receptive to beneficial uv light by making the keratin softer then it would being under dehydrating lamps? 

Please I would highly appreciate it. I love cool stuff like that. Thanks


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## tortadise

I'm not certain that the hydration has any direct result to the keratin itself. It's the proper husbandry that allows the animal to thrive well thus allowing proper growth. Good diet, proper lighting, exercise develops the animal in a more healthy anatomical aspect thusly creating the "perfect" "wild like" shell. If any animal is started incorrectly they will have internal issues which would allocate a "survival" mode and begin declining. The shell is just bone connected with keratin and tissues that are a result of a healthy growing animal.


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## glitch4200

tortadise said:


> I'm not certain that the hydration has any direct result to the keratin itself. It's the proper husbandry that allows the animal to thrive well thus allowing proper growth. Good diet, proper lighting, exercise develops the animal in a more healthy anatomical aspect thusly creating the "perfect" "wild like" shell. If any animal is started incorrectly they will have internal issues which would allocate a "survival" mode and begin declining. The shell is just bone connected with keratin and tissues that are a result of a healthy growing animal.



Fair enough lol. My focus is on the husbandry aspect of these lamps in particular of indoor kept tortoises and there really potent dehydrated effect on the skin and shell. Proper lighting is crucial just as much as them being completely hydrated to carry out the necessary function of proper growth and development in all aspects. I am sure your well aware of the effects of dehydration on any animal. I would go into survival mode too if I was constantly being dehydrated by my unnatural enviornment.. Which is what is happening in indoor enclosures with the use of all lamps over a period of time. 

Everything living organism needs water to function. And not just enough water to "survive" but enough to thrive and never be thirsty.. I feel these lamps inhibit certain aspects of an indoor kept tortoise and it's ability to never be fully "hydrated". Which looking at the data how can anyone who uses these lamps say that the humidity under these lamps is at a healthy sustained level.. Which compounded over years and years of indoor captivity, I feel problems would arise from that constant dehydration. 

I am up to 4 soaks a week now. 3 of which involve a heady application of extra virgin coconut oil. My goal is to make him ultra hydrated. And I am noticing how much more active he is. 4x a week he sits in his bath all happy and chills for at least 15 minutes. He loves it.


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## Hillman

glitch4200 said:


> Yes refined means it was heat treated since it claims being organic so most likely their shouldn't be any other chemicals added. But you lose some of the amino acids and potency of the anti- properties of the oil .I went to massage school and you never ever buy refined massage oils the process destroys so many of the natural benifits of the oil. And decreases potency exponentially. I Always buy cold pressed oils.



I like the idea of getting our torts healthy and shinny at the same time.
I only have one concern, speaking of the amino acids, have we checked the pH value of both the coconut oil and the shell, i know human's skin is about pH5.5 and coconut oil works well on us, but how about on tortoise shell?


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## glitch4200

Hillman said:


> I like the idea of getting our torts healthy and shinny at the same time.
> I only have one concern, speaking of the amino acids, have we checked the pH value of both the coconut oil and the shell, i know human's skin is about pH5.5 and coconut oil works well on us, but how about on tortoise shell?



From what I have gathered extra virgin coconut oil is made up of up to 98% saturated and unsaturated acids. Which makes it more acidic in nature. This is where the anti-fungal, bacterial, viral, and anti-inflammatory qualities come from in this oil. The type of acids this oil has are extremely potent. 

I can't find an exact pH of the shell but it's made up of layered beta keratin. Which is a key ingredient for our skin and hair. And the main ingredient in our finger and toe nails which is alpha keratin. I would suspect. And this is my opinion.. that the shell would be relatively close to the pH of the skin, hair and nails in humans. When keratin gets saturated for extended periods of time it's more prone to fungal & bacterial infections. So naturally EVCO can help inhibit this if it occures. Idk if this helps. If anyone with chem & bio knowledge that knows more about this please chip in lol

Another thing i found really cool is i told my grandma's dog vet about EVCO and how it could possibly help Olivers skin with the slight bacterial infection. She was hesitant she explained that dogs skin is very pH sensitive and said she would consult with the other doctors which included a dermatologist about the oil . My grandma got a call from the vet a week later and said that it would help this rash under his armpits and that she is confident that it could help others as well . She also said she is going to recommend it for certain instances instead of creams because it was all natural. I was pretty proud of myself .


----------



## Hillman

glitch4200 said:


> From what I have gathered extra virgin coconut oil is made up of up to 98% saturated and unsaturated acids. Which makes it more acidic in nature. This is where the anti-fungal, bacterial, viral, and anti-inflammatory qualities come from in this oil. The type of acids this oil has are extremely potent.
> 
> I can't find an exact pH of the shell but it's made up of layered beta keratin. Which is a key ingredient for our skin and hair. And the main ingredient in our finger and toe nails which is alpha keratin. I would suspect. And this is my opinion.. that the shell would be relatively close to the pH of the skin, hair and nails in humans. When keratin gets saturated for extended periods of time it's more prone to fungal & bacterial infections. So naturally EVCO can help inhibit this if it occures. Idk if this helps. If anyone with chem & bio knowledge that knows more about this please chip in lol
> 
> Another thing i found really cool is i told my grandma's dog vet about EVCO and how it could possibly help Olivers skin with the slight bacterial infection. She was hesitant she explained that dogs skin is very pH sensitive and said she would consult with the other doctors which included a dermatologist about the oil . My grandma got a call from the vet a week later and said that it would help this rash under his armpits and that she is confident that it could help others as well . She also said she is going to recommend it for certain instances instead of creams because it was all natural. I was pretty proud of myself .



You certainly did a great job! Testing on our own pets requires a lot of courage thou


----------



## glitch4200

Hillman said:


> You certainly did a great job! Testing on our own pets requires a lot of courage thou


 
Thank you. I appreciate the kind words. I would never put anything ever on any animal with knowing exactly what is in its ingredients and that it is completely all natural. Even then I'll be hesitant cuz not all natural products are good for animals either.. Which I'm sure some people are hesitant reading this. 

But I can tell you that I have yet to find or observe a negative effect from application... Except maybe blocking needed uvb when applied to the skin itself not the shell.


----------



## phebe121

Well since ive been doing coconut oil in my torts there shell has smoothed out and they look nice


----------



## glitch4200

phebe121 said:


> Well since ive been doing coconut oil in my torts there shell has smoothed out and they look nice



But most importantly the applications serve a higher purpose. 
To combat the unnatural drying effects of the lamps.  1 application is not enough to last one week. I've got it down to 3 applications a week for all week protection. I'll do it for the rest of his life until someone can prove to me undoubtedly it does not do what I am outlining or has a potential for long term harm to our tortoises.


----------



## glitch4200

So 1 month later.. I have applied coconut oil 9 times since I started this one month ago. 1 time the first week, 2 times 2nd week, 3 times each week after that. I have noticed his keratin has taken a liking to the oil.. before it lasted almost 4 days like first 2 weeks of application .. now its absorbs in like less then 2 days ... if that.. exp the last couple applications. 

This was taken today. I'll show you a pic tomorrow morning to show how quick it is absorbed. But honestly I am really happy cuz he seems so happy now since I started to apply this oil on him and bathing him 3x-4x a week. 

( biased & Observstional) He seems to sun bathes longer now. Staying under the light the entire day now! I never saw this behavior before . He would always go back and forth. now he just sits, smiles and with full limb extension .. and then like clockwork goes to the next fav spot. and sleeps and then off to his next favorite spot at a comfy new comfy temp. His skin is so colorful now.. and vibrant. He sometimes reaches 100 degrees and will sleep there with his head resting on his pirch sleeping peacefully the majority of the day... again another behavior I haven't seen before the oil application. I have not had any extreme variation in temperatures when I apply the coconut oil vs time allowed after it starts to absorb. I never move my lights and the highest temp he will reach is 100 degrees at any point. I take Temps 4 times a day atleast with an IR temp gun: shell, limbs, environment, the siding I put in there, substrate, lamps, pretty much everything I can point that thing at haha. Still no crazy difference after a month of temp readings .


----------



## glitch4200

My hypothesis is that this mineral oil is acting as a soft water/moisture barrier in counteracting "unfiltered" IR-A produced by lamps. 

Although, it may not "solve" this problem. I am becoming very aware that this a very necessary step in battling the said problem. I see, along with others, no harm coming from this short term. Obviously, I can't speak long term .. if you use these powerful lamps how could you not want to protect your tortoise after seeing the research showing that the lamps you use are a necessary evil and are harmful to our tortoises but necessary to keep them healthy , thriving animals. So many keepers keep these tortoises inside for whatever reason and even though we must stress correct and complete husbandry. We must address these evil lamps lol 
until someone makes a lamp that can produce "filtered" IR-A. We have a huge problem in indoor kept tortoises living under these lamps and the dehydrating effect these little guys live with day in and out.


----------



## glitch4200

this is this mornings picture. I had applied the oil about mid day yesterday and took this picture right when he got up at 8:50am. I don't even wipe it off anymore it just soaks up on its own lol but a lot seems to have absorbed or evaporated in a short period of time. You can see yesterday's pic above


----------



## AmRoKo

He wakes up and is like "I'm ready for my beauty shots! *strikes dramatic pose*".


----------



## Alaskamike

The bio- chemistry of keratin and the relationship between internal bone growth and the caprice health is one of the most intriguing and leading edge issues in tortoise keeping. 

The gross consequences of improper husbandry are readily seen in deformed shells. The more subtle consequences - like MBD-undoubtably are internal and only discovered by necropsy or internal imaging - both unavailable to the average keeper. For this reason - and rightly so - we now make smooth shells our goal; as observed in wild torts. 

We can see the ongoing evolution in tortoise care over the last few years. It is now widely believed - for instance - that too much plant protein, vegetable , fruit , and any animal protein was the culprit ( for herbivore) Those on leading edge of care promoted proper and more natural fibrous food. 

Lack of sunlight - artificial or natural , low temps, as well as small enclosures with lack of exercise were also implicated. And use of UVB and larger enclosure are now the norm. 

Hydration with always available water followed these gains. And now thanks to several members of the Tortoise forum - @Tom most notably , higher ambient humidity , closed chambers for young torts , and soaks are recommended. 

These advances are proven in the positive visual results obtained as well as healthy growing active tortoises. 

I believe you are on to something with EVCO. It is possible the anti- bacterial and anti fungal properties of this natural product can prevent shell rot - a condition that may be more common in an extremely high humidity environment like South Florida where I live. The dessicating effects of heat lamps - UVB bulbs are also problematic. 

But I also have concerns with those keeping their environments at 90%+ humidity, wet substrata and constant misting. Certainly this concern could be misplaced , but these conditions do not duplicate natural environments in my opinion. In nature Shells dry out, humidity levels change. Only water turtles are wet most of the time, and even these turtles get out on logs and bask / dry out. 

The drying effects of UVB are undoubtably an enemy of shell hydration. To counteract this , excessively damp conditions in enclosed chambers are being created & recommended. This is appearing to work for most baby tortoises. 

The balance exists somewhere. 

In my opinion no young tortoise should be raised in an open top table under a UVB - EVCO or not 

I suspect we will find out that balance is the key; higher humidity , varied temps and drying out time , natural sunlight supplemented with UVB and abundant proper foods will be key. The application of EVCO to caprice and plastron may also preserve hydration and provide a barrier to fungus and bacteria. 

I think as we look at the advances and recommendations some caution against excess might be wise. It's common for to think if " some is good - allot must be better ". It's not always so. 

Hydration is important - for instance- but raising your young Sulcata in a pond with only a log to dry out on is obviously ridiculous. They did not evolve to thrive in those conditions. 

Torts need sunlight - artificial or real. But 12 hours a day of artificial UVB can't be all good either. 

I know I am rambling here - most know all this well. My application of principles here with EVCO is an admonition to balance. 

Recommending EVCO as a substitute for higher humidity , regular soakings, and enclosed chambers for hatchlings would be an error I believe.

Using EVCO as a part of overall good care may very well prove valuable. This is not a criticism of the experiment. I do however cringe at keeping the shell soaked in EVCO weekly. As I observe after one application, Water still beads off the caprice two weeks after application. 

Do shells need to dry out occasionally ? Do they need unobstructed air to harden properly and maintain cell health ? 

I do not know. I do think your well documented info on IR-A filtration through atmospheric water vapor is important. And in this area we often error in too long exposure of torts indoors to these overhead heat and UV sources. Even an hour or two a day of natural sunlight seems sufficient to provide the D3 needed for calcium absorption. Do we need 12 hours of artificial sunlight in chambers to equal this? 

There seems to be many recommendations against using alternative heat sources to overhead lights. Cautions about burning shells the most mentioned. However , I have found good success in using a heating pad ( made for humans and waterproof ) under the substrata to keep an enclosed chamber at 85- 88f for babies. I found the cheap under tank reptile pads and " heat rocks" to be poorly made junk. 

Good job in working with this relatively new idea. Certainly EVCO may prove to be an added health issue for out charges. 

I will continue to watch this thread for others experience and input
Mike 











Sent from my iPhone


----------



## Yvonne G

oh my lord in heaven!!! You typed all of that on your phone?????? I'm very impressed.

It was an inciteful and well thought out premise. Thank you for that.


----------



## Alaskamike

Hahaha. Well , must admit , I used a laptop , copied and pasted from an email I sent to myself. Odd I know 
But I'm an odd one. 
Thanks


----------



## puffy137

Alaskamike said:


> Hahaha. Well , must admit , I used a laptop , copied and pasted from an email I sent to myself. Odd I know
> But I'm an odd one.
> Thanks


Clever Clogs


----------



## Yvonne G

Shaun: If you'd like me to remove the OT and sort of OT posts from your thread, let me know and I'll move them to another thread for discussion on the oil subject.


----------



## Alaskamike

I am not one of the most experience keeper - by far. But I do have a biology / science background. There is a big difference between coconut oil and mineral / petroleum based oil. 

In my opinion , petroleum based products should not be used on torts or human skin. There is science behind this - but suffice to say here , the EVCO recommended by the OP has few down sides that we know of so far.


----------



## puffy137

I have some mineral oil here, but I too am very tempted to get some coconut oil. Indian ladies here swear by the stuff for their lovely hair. I will give them a nice warm bath first, then a massage & a buff up.


----------



## glitch4200

Yvonne G said:


> Shaun: If you'd like me to remove the OT and sort of OT posts from your thread, let me know and I'll move them to another thread for discussion on the oil subject.


 
Yes please I would love to keep this as relevant as possible to my original post any side concerns should be discussed seperstely in another thread. Thank you so much. I highly appreciate it .


----------



## keepergale

B


----------



## glitch4200

Alaskamike said:


> The bio- chemistry of keratin and the relationship between internal bone growth and the caprice health is one of the most intriguing and leading edge issues in tortoise keeping.
> 
> The gross consequences of improper husbandry are readily seen in deformed shells. The more subtle consequences - like MBD-undoubtably are internal and only discovered by necropsy or internal imaging - both unavailable to the average keeper. For this reason - and rightly so - we now make smooth shells our goal; as observed in wild torts.
> 
> We can see the ongoing evolution in tortoise care over the last few years. It is now widely believed - for instance - that too much plant protein, vegetable , fruit , and any animal protein was the culprit ( for herbivore) Those on leading edge of care promoted proper and more natural fibrous food.
> 
> Lack of sunlight - artificial or natural , low temps, as well as small enclosures with lack of exercise were also implicated. And use of UVB and larger enclosure are now the norm.
> 
> Hydration with always available water followed these gains. And now thanks to several members of the Tortoise forum - @Tom most notably , higher ambient humidity , closed chambers for young torts , and soaks are recommended.
> 
> These advances are proven in the positive visual results obtained as well as healthy growing active tortoises.
> 
> I believe you are on to something with EVCO. It is possible the anti- bacterial and anti fungal properties of this natural product can prevent shell rot - a condition that may be more common in an extremely high humidity environment like South Florida where I live. The dessicating effects of heat lamps - UVB bulbs are also problematic.
> 
> But I also have concerns with those keeping their environments at 90%+ humidity, wet substrata and constant misting. Certainly this concern could be misplaced , but these conditions do not duplicate natural environments in my opinion. In nature Shells dry out, humidity levels change. Only water turtles are wet most of the time, and even these turtles get out on logs and bask / dry out.
> 
> The drying effects of UVB are undoubtably an enemy of shell hydration. To counteract this , excessively damp conditions in enclosed chambers are being created & recommended. This is appearing to work for most baby tortoises.
> 
> The balance exists somewhere.
> 
> In my opinion no young tortoise should be raised in an open top table under a UVB - EVCO or not
> 
> I suspect we will find out that balance is the key; higher humidity , varied temps and drying out time , natural sunlight supplemented with UVB and abundant proper foods will be key. The application of EVCO to caprice and plastron may also preserve hydration and provide a barrier to fungus and bacteria.
> 
> I think as we look at the advances and recommendations some caution against excess might be wise. It's common for to think if " some is good - allot must be better ". It's not always so.
> 
> Hydration is important - for instance- but raising your young Sulcata in a pond with only a log to dry out on is obviously ridiculous. They did not evolve to thrive in those conditions.
> 
> Torts need sunlight - artificial or real. But 12 hours a day of artificial UVB can't be all good either.
> 
> I know I am rambling here - most know all this well. My application of principles here with EVCO is an admonition to balance.
> 
> Recommending EVCO as a substitute for higher humidity , regular soakings, and enclosed chambers for hatchlings would be an error I believe.
> 
> Using EVCO as a part of overall good care may very well prove valuable. This is not a criticism of the experiment. I do however cringe at keeping the shell soaked in EVCO weekly. As I observe after one application, Water still beads off the caprice two weeks after application.
> 
> Do shells need to dry out occasionally ? Do they need unobstructed air to harden properly and maintain cell health ?
> 
> I do not know. I do think your well documented info on IR-A filtration through atmospheric water vapor is important. And in this area we often error in too long exposure of torts indoors to these overhead heat and UV sources.



Is this the beginning of the acceptance of extra virgin coconut oil as a healthy addition to the basic husbandry of all indoor kept adult tortoises under these unfiltered producing IR-A lamps? 

You stress baby tortoise care separate from evco and open table top habitats due to Toms and others success on the proper "wet" methods of raising them in higher humidity closed chamber environments. 

So at what point do you guys recommend to initiate application as a baby tortoise begins to pass adolescence into adulthood if kept under lamps all its life. Not the ideal but since hydration is so important early on what stops that importance as it grows into full adulthood and to become an old tortoise? 

Balance is key. If you guys saw my tattoos you would know how much balance means to me in this life... Oh and the tortoise tattoo going across my chest. 

My last application of evco was 2.5 days ago and I don't see any oil present on the shell or skin this morning and it looks "dry". Is this considered the dry out period? At this rate 2 applications would last all week and allow for about 2 "drying out" days. I was applying 3 times a week cuz of how quickly it's been absorbing into him but that isn't allows "drying out" time as you mentioned. 

My recommendation to using coconut oil is only in combination with at least 3x-4x soaks a week and in combination with any enclosure that allows for proper ambient humidity. This is not a magic oil. It does not replace the need for ambient humidity and regular soaking. And of course if yoy are using any lamp that produces IR-A. (98% of them) 

I took a pic before I went to class this morning.. He hates morning pics... No oil present.


----------



## glitch4200

@Yvonne G 

You moved your post to the other thread but I read that you are convinced by this? That makes me most excited to be able to sway some very prominent members of this amazing community to a new idea.


----------



## Yvonne G

Not quite convinced yet. I'm giving it a lot of thought, and I have bought some to try on problem shells.


----------



## Alaskamike

He's looking very good.  

When I say oil is still present in mine 2 weeks after application , I don't mean it is visible. I mean that when giving soaks water still beads up on caprice in a way it did not do without any application. This beading says to me the oil is still present on shell. 

As far as when in growth high humidity and soaks are reduced / eliminated , others would have to answer that. 
I don't consider myself one of the " guys" you refer to as my assumption is you mean the " old timers" and experts in tortoise care. 
It takes time for acceptance of any new addition to care - no matter how well substantiated. 

I believe the prevailing attitude is, the younger and smaller the tort , the more danger of dehydration. If this is correct , the larger faster growing species would reduce their need quicker with age. 

For mine - water will always be available both for soaking and drinking.


----------



## Elohi

Something to ponder...
What about the inadvertent ingestion of the coconut oil. My tortoises track through their water dish often and sometimes soak as well. Their water tends to be warm because their chamber is warm, and if they are covered in oil, some would end up on the surface of the water. When they drink, they would obviously ingest some of the oil. What benefits or problems could arise from this, I wonder? It's a medium chain fatty acid and a fabulous source of saturated fat, but do we want this fabulous fat in our tortoises?


----------



## Elohi

And I agree, he is looking great.


----------



## glitch4200

Yvonne G said:


> Not quite convinced yet. I'm giving it a lot of thought, and I have bought some to try on problem shells.



Good I'm glad you're not totally convinced. It will take many more months maybes years and many other accounts to prove this to convince.  I am glad I caught your interest though and others interest as well. I have only the best intentions with this.


----------



## glitch4200

Alaskamike said:


> He's looking very good.
> 
> When I say oil is still present in mine 2 weeks after application , I don't mean it is visible. I mean that when giving soaks water still beads up on caprice in a way it did not do without any application. This beading says to me the oil is still present on shell.
> 
> As far as when in growth high humidity and soaks are reduced / eliminated , others would have to answer that.
> I don't consider myself one of the " guys" you refer to as my assumption is you mean the " old timers" and experts in tortoise care.
> It takes time for acceptance of any new addition to care - no matter how well substantiated.
> 
> I believe the prevailing attitude is, the younger and smaller the tort , the more danger of dehydration. If this is correct , the larger faster growing species would reduce their need quicker with age.
> 
> For mine - water will always be available both for soaking and drinking.



Thank you  he does look good I am noticing the ridges smooth out completely in different areas of his shell. I mean like completely smoothed out. It's really interesting. 

I feel the people that contribute to an idea or technique in a way to promote the advancement or intellectually disprove that particular idea that is within the scope of tortoises are the real experts and innovators here on this forum. People who are "experienced" can have a lot of knowledge about a subject but it's the people who can contribute to the addition or subtraction of that knowledge that makes them pretty useful in a place like this. You can't be quiet if your an expert and someone pokes at a new idea that you can add or subtract from or even dismiss completely. The ones who speak up with there experienced knowledge are the real experts here. I ask for people to dissect this claim in hopes to find something I didn't.


----------



## glitch4200

Elohi said:


> Something to ponder...
> What about the inadvertent ingestion of the coconut oil. My tortoises track through their water dish often and sometimes soak as well. Their water tends to be warm because their chamber is warm, and if they are covered in oil, some would end up on the surface of the water. When they drink, they would obviously ingest some of the oil. What benefits or problems could arise from this, I wonder? It's a medium chain fatty acid and a fabulous source of saturated fat, but do we want this fabulous fat in our tortoises?


 
A very good point. I bathe him 3 to 4 times a week and I'm sure some gets in the water maybe.. I mean the majority of his shell is not covered by water. 

But how much would really be consumed by them if some did get into the water and they happen to drink it? .. 
And would that level of consumption be detrimental to a tortoises health over a long period of time while applying the oil consistently?
Would small levels of it hurt a well hydrated tortoise? Or would it simply pass through unharmed? 

My question is does a tortoise receive natural forms a saturated fat in there natural enviornment? And if so can it be safe to assume small amounts can be consumed if it had actually happend with evco?


----------



## Alaskamike

glitch4200 said:


> A very good point. I bathe him 3 to 4 times a week and I'm sure some gets in the water maybe.. I mean the majority of his shell is not covered by water.
> 
> But how much would really be consumed by them if some did get into the water and they happen to drink it? ..
> And would that level of consumption be detrimental to a tortoises health over a long period of time while applying the oil consistently?
> Would small levels of it hurt a well hydrated tortoise? Or would it simply pass through unharmed?
> 
> My question is does a tortoise receive natural forms a saturated fat in there natural enviornment? And if so can it be safe to assume small amounts can be consumed if it had actually happend with evco?


Certainly I am no expert on tortoise metabolism or digestive processes. But just the basics of diet and understanding of herbivores leads me to think ingestion of a naturally occurring oil in plant matter would not be a problem.


----------



## Alaskamike

I have decided to apply the EVCO to my torts once a week. Only to shells. After following this thread closely I see no downside - only possible improvement in shell / keratin health. I think the anti- bacterial & anti fungal properties are a big plus here in So Florida with our high humidity and rainy seasons. 

After a few months I will give an update. I have one rescued 2 yo Sulcata with pyramiding that I'd like to see smooth out. 

It is probable that no matter what , I will not be able to determine the direct results of the EVCO as I am soaking and providing optimal care as I can. 

But I'm on board to try it. 
Mike


----------



## puffy137

Queen Anne is showing early signs of pyrimiding on her back end scutes. I won't start to use coconut oil until the warmer weather comes again, in case it makes them feel chilled . I'm pretty sure the reason she has this is because she doesn't get enough exercise, & I might be feeding them too much.


----------



## glitch4200

puff 137 said:


> Queen Anne is showing early signs of pyrimiding on her back end scutes. I won't start to use coconut oil until the warmer weather comes again, in case it makes them feel chilled . I'm pretty sure the reason she has this is because she doesn't get enough exercise, & I might be feeding them too much.



This idea isn't aimed at reducing pyramiding. Although, it's possible it can help. This idea is there to increase overall hydration to the keratin and to promote healthy cellular function deep down into the organs. This is an idea to try and combat the indoor lamps used that create intense dehydrating conditions day after day of use. 

From my research and constant temp taking of the carapace before and after application. I do not see any indication that application makes them feel "chilled" as if that was the case it would lower the heat absorption substantially and I would see that in my temperature readings. I have not found that to be the case. But of course do what you feel is right for your tortoise.


----------



## glitch4200

Alaskamike said:


> Certainly I am no expert on tortoise metabolism or digestive processes. But just the basics of diet and understanding of herbivores leads me to think ingestion of a naturally occurring oil in plant matter would not be a problem.



Where does one find the "expert" on tortoise digestion and metabolism that could answer this with certainty? Does a tortoise receive natural sources of saturated fat in there diet in any amount? And if extra virgin coconut oil was eaten on accident in small amounts would it effect them since it a very clean natural saturated fat oil?


----------



## puffy137

Right , I have a confession to make & an observation. Yesterday I had an impulse to use coconut oil on the tortoises that were out milling around in their paddock , so I asked my humans if anyone had any coconut oil, not having found any in my local supermarket, Some coconut hair oil was produced, with a slight perfume smell, but hmm , what the heck let me try it. Soo , I bathed them & dried them & massaged said oil into their shells , then buffed it off. & returned them to their paddock, Now for the observation. Ceasar who normally chases Reeva around everywhere, suddenly lost interest in her. She seemed puzzled , kept following him , & even bit him on his hind leg.This has NEVER happened before. Still no response until he gave her one consolatory bump,then walked away. Today things were back to normal , the perfume smell must have faded, but the lustre of their shells is still in tact, Will try to procure some pure oil in future . as its not as sticky as olive oil , which always seems to make matters worse. Thanks Glitch


----------



## glitch4200

puff 137 said:


> Right , I have a confession to make & an observation. Yesterday I had an impulse to use coconut oil on the tortoises that were out milling around in their paddock , so I asked my humans if anyone had any coconut oil, not having found any in my local supermarket, Some coconut hair oil was produced, with a slight perfume smell, but hmm , what the heck let me try it. Soo , I bathed them & dried them & massaged said oil into their shells , then buffed it off. & returned them to their paddock, Now for the observation. Ceasar who normally chases Reeva around everywhere, suddenly lost interest in her. She seemed puzzled , kept following him , & even bit him on his hind leg.This has NEVER happened before. Still no response until he gave her one consolatory bump,then walked away. Today things were back to normal , the perfume smell must have faded, but the lustre of their shells is still in tact, Will try to procure some pure oil in future . as its not as sticky as olive oil , which always seems to make matters worse. Thanks Glitch



I find your need to impulse troubling in this matter. The "coconut hair oil" you used is not what I am recommending . I have no idea the toxins or chemicals used in the "perfume" smell which is not present in pure extra virgin coconut oil. This entire thread is just specifically for that promotion on an idea of extra virgin coconut oil. The observation you tell is not one that pertains to the oil I am referring to in this thread .I applaud the attempt to do right. But I can't consider this part observational data for extra virgin coconut oil application in the sense I am speaking unless you used what the oil i am referring too . When you do get the right oil, then observe and tell me what you see , I would like to know that interaction with the right oil. The hair part of the product also scares the **** out of me too you have no Idea which products are harmful to animals.


----------



## puffy137

The only coconut oil I'm likely to find here is imported from India , & whether its 'pure, extra & virgin ' will be anyone's guess.  However I shall persevere & let you know .


----------



## puffy137

Never had much reason to use coconut oil before, I will now for cosmetic purposes on my tortoises, I once had to take my son & also a friends child to a Harley Street skin specialist because they both had light patches of skin appearing on their faces & bodies. The doctor prescribed anti-fungal cream, Travogen & also for us not to use products containing coconut oil .


----------



## Abdulla6169

puff 137 said:


> Queen Anne is showing early signs of pyrimiding on her back end scutes. I won't start to use coconut oil until the warmer weather comes again, in case it makes them feel chilled . I'm pretty sure the reason she has this is because she doesn't get enough exercise, & I might be feeding them too much.


Puff, the cause of pyramiding is lack of humidity... I'd suggest you start a thread about it to make sure Queen Anne is actually pyramiding and how to fix it.


----------



## glitch4200

*UPDATE* 
I am noticing the EVCO absorbing at an alarming rate now into the keratin...I will put a couple finger scoops on, wait about 2 minutes. Go to wipe it off with NOTHING coming off now. Thats #1....
#2... i am noticing the oil either evaporate or absorb into the keratin faster then previous weeks 4 weeks, I will apply the oil and visually watch it absorb by end of day. I feel this is absorption not evaporation because the temps are not changing and his basking habits are not changing. Which leads me to believe the beta-keratin has become very receptive of this oil.. How much is too much is a question i am asking myself often now.. I want to stay away from applying too much. But i want to combat the drying effects of these lamps and I have found that in an open table top with unregulated humidity such as my set up the humidity becomes dangerously low even more so under those lamps then in an "enclosed chamber". A reason why i have upped his baths to 4 times a week. But I am struggling with the idea of hydration and what is too much and what is not enough. Kertain hydration seems to effect every aspect of a tortoise from organ function to cellular hydration to proper bone development. Since beta keratin is hydroscopic and absorbs water so readily, i see this as the start of figuring out the proper hydration level for my russian tortoise and how to actually get my russian to receive the amount of water to replenish what is taken from basking under those lamps for hours on end. 

I cringe at the reading of a indoor kept tortoise under lamps with 1 to 2 baths a week.. thinking that that is enough to counteract the "unfiltered" IR-A rays dehydrating effects. No one can claim that a tortoise is receiving the appropriate water for bodily development and function at only 1 to 2 baths a week while indoor kept under powerful heat and uvb lamps. The research doesnt back that up. And most readily shows the opposite is happening. The tortoise is most undoubtably dehydrated and continues to "stay" dehydrated until a solution is presented to combat those lamps and multiple soaking are given. Which often does NOT happen. Soaks alone can't solve this "unfiltered" IR-A problem. Soaks only replenish the partial loss off water from the lamps in small amounts. It does NOT replenish hours and hours of "unfiltered" IR-A day after day after day.... Ambient Humidity is part of the solution. Soaking is part of the solution. EVCO is part of the solution. Proper DIet is part of the solution. Appropriate habitat is part of the solution, Appropriate lighting is the solution. A balance with these key ingrediants is needed to just keep the hydration level in all aspects at the level is needs full a tortoise to "THRIVE" not "SURVIVE". This is not the wild. This is captivity and i feel we owe our tortoises the chance to have 100 percent hydration at ALL times. But again, i am striving to find the balance.. Unless someone can tell me otherwise, why should a tortoise ever be subjected to less then 100% hydration even if in the wild they dont always recieve that 100 percent hydration. 
-Shaun


----------



## Cowboy_Ken

Shaun,
I'm sorry but your tone and this thread is starting to resemble an infomercial. Just giving you the heads up here. That is all.


----------



## glitch4200

Cowboy_Ken said:


> Shaun,
> I'm sorry but your tone and this thread is starting to resemble an infomercial. Just giving you the heads up here. That is all.



It's a debatable topic in the debatable section. This is all my opinion .. am I in the wrong? If I am wrong, call me out on what I am wrong on.. please . I would hope and I have announced multiple times throughout the thread to call me out if I am saying something that is not correct. I have noone saying anything to me about what I have said and those who have , we have very nicely talked about it. If I am wrong about it tell me so I can learn. It's not helping me or anyone if what I spew is wrong and people who view this thread knows something I don't and does not call me out on it. Pretty much everything I have talked about is what I have read through the forum and that has gotten a general consensus of the correct path of trying doing it right. this is what a forum is for, to push forward and have people present new ideas to the masses for approval or disproval. If you don't agree then find a flaw in my words. I am very opinionated and I do get worked up about this type of stuff.


----------



## glitch4200

Cowboy_Ken said:


> Shaun,
> I'm sorry but your tone and this thread is starting to resemble an infomercial. Just giving you the heads up here. That is all.


 
A brief list of concepts and ideas covered thus far in this thread. Please disprove any of these points. 

1. For a healthy tortoise to thrive indoors under lamps , you must provide a balanced proper diet, appropriate ambient humidity, proper heat and uvb lighting (if little access to natural sunlight), as well an appropriate habitat that is species specific. 

2. a tortoise that does not receive naturally "filtered" sunlight outside and receives artificial lighting indoors is exposing there tortoises to "unfiltered" IR-A. Day after day of prolonged basking is constantly driving water out of the shell and skin of tortoises . 

3. This simple fact of knowledge stated above gives me confidence that the natural organic non refined cold pressed extra virgin coconut oil can help as a barrier to help counteract some of the moisture loss from these lamps. Humans have used this for a very long time and keratin which is present in tortoises is also present in humans in our hair , skin and nails. Many accounts on this all over. 

4. There is not enough water vapor in the atmosphere right under the lamps to create a "filtration" effect in the IR-A that mimics the sun. This means all those water sucking rays must absorb there water elsewhere. The only water available is the ambient humidity and the water present in the tortoise , that's it. 

5. After about a month of observational data and comparing and contrasting pictures over the last month you can't deny the changes in many aspects of the shell, skin color , notable color enhancement, flattening of the keratin. Also I have observed behavioral Changes like basking for longer periods of time now. These are only my opinions and what I have observed. I don't gain anything by lying. I see that as weakness in my new idea. Again these are only observstions and biased ones at that. 

6. Proper Humidity and hydration is the of the leading concepts in appropriate husbandry for our tortoises . It is a driving force behind all anatomical, biological, and physiological functions of tortoises. Without proper hydration almost any system of the tortoise can malfunction in some way with time. Same in humans. 

7. Soaking is absolutely required to help replace lost water by "unfiltered" IR-A lamps. But I argue the idea that 2x times a week isn't enough if a tortoise is constantly living under these dehydrating lamps. Exp, if the ambient humidity is not at an ideal level. The dehydrating effect is compounded with low ambient humidity that presents conditions no tortoise would sustain long term in there natural habitat. 

8. Balance is the key to homeostasis.

That is pretty much every thing I have said in this thread. Can anyone please disprove any of those ideas? If you can't find anything wrong with my then yes my tone is definitely informative. If you find my gathered ideas troubling then say something about it and tell me what is wrong so I can learn and have the right information for people to see. 

-Shaun


----------



## Alaskamike

I keep reading the updates on this thread. Thinking I don't need to comment anymore , just wait and see what results are over time. And that is really what I will do , 

But your comment about absorption is interesting. I know keratin is porous, but it would surprise me if absorption increased the more often applied I have no idea why this might be so. Anyone hazard a guess ? 

And if this is in fact happening , what are the potential effects on the tortoise ? 

EVCO is soluble fat , among other things. I assume it is absorbed in my skin when applied. It doesn't evaporate easily or quickly. 

As I stated before. The first time I tried it , 2 weeks later water still beaded up on their shells, in ways it did not before application. 

Is it possible frequent application is making the keratin more permeable ? 
And if so , does this have a potential downside ? Wow , I really don't have the science for that question.


----------



## Cowboy_Ken

Alaskamike said:


> I keep reading the updates on this thread. Thinking I don't need to comment anymore , just wait and see what results are over time. And that is really what I will do ,
> 
> But your comment about absorption is interesting. I know keratin is porous, but it would surprise me if absorption increased the more often applied I have no idea why this might be so. Anyone hazard a guess ?
> 
> And if this is in fact happening , what are the potential effects on the tortoise ?
> 
> EVCO is soluble fat , among other things. I assume it is absorbed in my skin when applied. It doesn't evaporate easily or quickly.
> 
> As I stated before. The first time I tried it , 2 weeks later water still beaded up on their shells, in ways it did not before application.
> 
> Is it possible frequent application is making the keratin more permeable ?
> And if so , does this have a potential downside ? Wow , I really don't have the science for that question.


To me, the beading of water would be an indicator of an inability to absorb water. Hydration is the saturation of water, (hydro) not of fats oils or wax, regardless of these three items absorption rates. I would hazard a guess that natural, organically sourced, raw, bees wax would also be absorbed into the keratin in the warm environments we provide our tortoises. Would this then be an indicator of hydration? Of course not.


----------



## Alaskamike

Ken. Good point. 
I'm not advocating this treatment. But if I understand the principle suggested by the OP it is to reduce evaporative moisture loss from the shell under UVB. In other words , keep moisture in , not out. 

Presumably our tortoises get their hydration for their entire biology from drinking water. Some is absorbed through skin in soaks also. But I would think this would be minor compared to drinking. 

We use high humidity to reduce lass of water through skin and shell - right? 
And I guess also to keep shell flexible enough for smooth growth 

I really am asking here. I feel like there is something missing in my understanding of the hydration issue. 
Maybe I just don't get it straight in my head yet.


----------



## puffy137

but


AbdullaAli said:


> Puff, the cause of pyramiding is lack of humidity... I'd suggest you start a thread about it to make sure Queen Anne is actually pyramiding and how to fix it.


Queen Anne is at present indisposed due to inclement weather we are experiencing of late , i. e. no sun. As soon as climatic circumstances improve I shall endeavour to persuade Her Maj to sit for a portrait,


----------



## Dizisdalife

glitch4200 said:


> Good I'm glad you're not totally convinced. It will take many more months maybes years and many other accounts to prove this to convince.  I am glad I caught your interest though and others interest as well. I have only the best intentions with this.


Members using and recommending EVCO is not new on this Forum. Here is a thread from over a year ago:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/olive-oil.82167/ 
There are undoubtedly other post in threads about VitaShell or other lotions.
Although I haven't seen post from BeeBee or Sandy (two members that have some history usinf EVCO) in a few months, perhaps you could PM them to get some of their experience with applying EVCO. They seem to have been using it for a longer period of time


----------



## glitch4200

Cowboy_Ken said:


> To me, the beading of water would be an indicator of an inability to absorb water. Hydration is the saturation of water, (hydro) not of fats oils or wax, regardless of these three items absorption rates. I would hazard a guess that natural, organically sourced, raw, bees wax would also be absorbed into the keratin in the warm environments we provide our tortoises. Would this then be an indicator of hydration? Of course not.


 
If natural bees wax had moisturizing properties and benefits to keratin you may be on to something haha. You never know. Lol 

I mean when I soak my tortoise the shell isn't covered in water. The shell beading off water really shouldn't have much affect on how much water the tortoise is absorbing when very little of the shell is under water. He drinks almost every time I bath him which happens 4x a week and every rare once in awhile he drinks from his dish haha. I feel this helps keep moisture in and help moisturize the shell too . Really only time will tell. His applications have been steady. And my instagram has been a great place to keep my documentation through pics.


----------



## glitch4200

Alaskamike said:


> Ken. Good point.
> I'm not advocating this treatment. But if I understand the principle suggested by the OP it is to reduce evaporative moisture loss from the shell under UVB. In other words , keep moisture in , not out.
> 
> Presumably our tortoises get their hydration for their entire biology from drinking water. Some is absorbed through skin in soaks also. But I would think this would be minor compared to drinking.
> 
> We use high humidity to reduce lass of water through skin and shell - right?
> And I guess also to keep shell flexible enough for smooth growth
> 
> I really am asking here. I feel like there is something missing in my understanding of the hydration issue.
> Maybe I just don't get it straight in my head yet.



Yes I am saying that it provides mineral oil that helps hydrate the keratin. As well as keep water in. I also feel it definitely makes the Kerstin more permeable. It is absorbing faster. And that is being observed. I also have noted minor sticking of substrate when I don't wipe off excess coconut oil. I have been taking Temps and recording them throughout the day to show a compare and contrast over time with and without coconut oil applicstion. During dry periods and application periods. Pretty interesting numbers. 

I think we use good ambient humidity to try and counteract those lamps. And to provide a stable environment for the skin, shell, and intracellular environments hydration wise.. the natural environment varies in the summer and during hibernation they are in the soil dug down at a specific temp and humidity. so the majority of the time they have decent humidity. Those lamps do not provide a decent environment in terms of humidity . All that moisture sucked sway !


----------



## glitch4200

Dizisdalife said:


> Members using and recommending EVCO is not new on this Forum. Here is a thread from over a year ago:
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/olive-oil.82167/
> There are undoubtedly other post in threads about VitaShell or other lotions.
> Although I haven't seen post from BeeBee or Sandy (two members that have some history usinf EVCO) in a few months, perhaps you could PM them to get some of their experience with applying EVCO. They seem to have been using it for a longer period of time




Well thank you I will have to message them haha but this thread is trying to push this oil as an acceptable and proper addition for indoor kept tortoises as part of basic care when faced with high powered lamps that dehydrate them. I am determined to prove the legitimacy of this oil and it's use for our tortoises. And to push it's use for care in areas like shell rot and topical infection instead of harmful antifungal creams and medicine where applicatable that are harmful to tortoises. Of course always visit your exotic pet specialist for a second opinion. But knowing about a natural product like this can possibly save a tortoises life one day when every second counts . You never know.. it's contextual and situational . But I am seeing damn good results with applicstion. I am on week 6 of consistent applicstion. . I am a believer for sure. Time will tell


----------



## glitch4200

***UPDATE*** So i stumbled upon old pictures of nibbles when i had first got him. I was fascinated with him, i thought i lost these. This will show you a crazy comparison of before application of EVCO and after EVCO application. PICTURE HEAVY. I will alternate between old and new so you can compare nicely. I will show you all the angles I can. These comparing pictures are taken about a month after i got him which was early October last year. When i got him he was only 235g and about 4.25inches, he currently as of today 5inches and 345grams in like 13 months having him. These new pictures were taken within the last month. Look for color saturation, scales "cramped" together, dry lines, skin color, shell color, how ridges seem to flatten out completely and become smooth, This is after complete change in husbandry throughout the year and along with about 7 weeks of application of extra virgin coconut oil these past 7 weeks. I started off at 1x application the first work and worked my way to 3x times a week. The last 3 weeks i alternated between 2x times one week and 3x the other 2 weeks. I wanted to gauge drying time and thermo regulation temps which i have records of each for every day. please let me know what you think. I believe this speaks for itself. You be the judge.

compared to this ..... one of my first applications

as well as

vs

as well as

vs

but wait there is more!

vs..

and..


Let me know what you guys think! Judge away! This is what Extra Virgin Coconut Oil has done for my little guy.


----------



## gingerbee

You also apply to skin and head, I believe I read that earlier in the thread. I'm considering trying this on my Redfoot sparky. She has shell problems and under vet care.


----------



## glitch4200

I do on occasion. i dont want to interfer with UVB absorption. Skin is spot treated and applied to areas i feel are dry. i dont soak his entire body, just his entire shell. I am trying to make sure i use a balanced approach to this oil. These are new grounds i am treading on. I want to make sure i am doing it right and with no harm to come to my little guy. These pictures more then prove to me how in such a short time how much different it can be when a tortoise is well hydrated. I mean seriously compare these pictures. You can find multiple differences. Some quite significant in my opinion. I am going into psychology, where observation is one of the most important elements to successfully helping people. I can apply this same concept here. And i am doing much observation and recording. I see many differences.


----------



## Alaskamike

The pictures seem to show a significant smoothing of shell. Old growth especially. 

I would be interested in seeing a photo from the rear , positioned like your first original photo from rear. 

The back portion of the shell shows dimples and creases that appear to be hydration problems in old growth. 

I know it's only been a short time you've been using this , so I wouldn't expect major change , but would like to see it now.


----------



## zenoandthetortoise

glitch4200 said:


> A brief list of concepts and ideas covered thus far in this thread. Please disprove any of these points.
> 
> 1. For a healthy tortoise to thrive indoors under lamps , you must provide a balanced proper diet, appropriate ambient humidity, proper heat and uvb lighting (if little access to natural sunlight), as well an appropriate habitat that is species specific.
> 
> 2. a tortoise that does not receive naturally "filtered" sunlight outside and receives artificial lighting indoors is exposing there tortoises to "unfiltered" IR-A. Day after day of prolonged basking is constantly driving water out of the shell and skin of tortoises .
> 
> 3. This simple fact of knowledge stated above gives me confidence that the natural organic non refined cold pressed extra virgin coconut oil can help as a barrier to help counteract some of the moisture loss from these lamps. Humans have used this for a very long time and keratin which is present in tortoises is also present in humans in our hair , skin and nails. Many accounts on this all over.
> 
> 4. There is not enough water vapor in the atmosphere right under the lamps to create a "filtration" effect in the IR-A that mimics the sun. This means all those water sucking rays must absorb there water elsewhere. The only water available is the ambient humidity and the water present in the tortoise , that's it.
> 
> 5. After about a month of observational data and comparing and contrasting pictures over the last month you can't deny the changes in many aspects of the shell, skin color , notable color enhancement, flattening of the keratin. Also I have observed behavioral Changes like basking for longer periods of time now. These are only my opinions and what I have observed. I don't gain anything by lying. I see that as weakness in my new idea. Again these are only observstions and biased ones at that.
> 
> 6. Proper Humidity and hydration is the of the leading concepts in appropriate husbandry for our tortoises . It is a driving force behind all anatomical, biological, and physiological functions of tortoises. Without proper hydration almost any system of the tortoise can malfunction in some way with time. Same in humans.
> 
> 7. Soaking is absolutely required to help replace lost water by "unfiltered" IR-A lamps. But I argue the idea that 2x times a week isn't enough if a tortoise is constantly living under these dehydrating lamps. Exp, if the ambient humidity is not at an ideal level. The dehydrating effect is compounded with low ambient humidity that presents conditions no tortoise would sustain long term in there natural habitat.
> 
> 8. Balance is the key to homeostasis.
> 
> That is pretty much every thing I have said in this thread. Can anyone please disprove any of those ideas? If you can't find anything wrong with my then yes my tone is definitely informative. If you find my gathered ideas troubling then say something about it and tell me what is wrong so I can learn and have the right information for people to see.
> 
> -Shaun



Hi there. I'm going to take you at your word that you are welcome to constructive criticism and/or suggestions with an eye toward furthering this line of inquiry. Please note I am not an anti-coconut activist and have no tortoise in this fight, as it were. That said, my input is as follows, notated in reference to your paragraph:

1. To achieve scientific rigor, it is your responsibility to establish evidence. Making a claim and then challenging others to disprove is to ask the audience to do the heavy lifting. You supply the claim, you supply the evidence. 

2. The summary provided in paragraph 2 is too simplistic in cause (the oft-mentioned IR-A). Any wavelength of IR (aka 'heat) is desiccating. To my knowledge, this concept is not in question. 

3. This conclusion does not follow from the evidence provided. It may be true, but it is not established as presented. In fact, it is a restatement of hypothesis presented as a conclusion. 

4. The uneven heating and drying illustrated by the IR spectrographs are directly related to narrow beam spot lamps and high volume to surface area (adult) tortoise shells. Multiple, smaller wattage floodlights closely mimic solar heating. 

5. Nothing wrong with observational data. I wonder if there would be a way to measure the flattening you describe?

6. This is an uncontested point that serves no purpose as stated. 

7. This feels like a straw man argument. Who is advocating only twice a week soaks and less than ideal RH? Also, if this were indeed the crux of the issue, why wouldn't the appropriate response be more frequent soaks and higher humidity? 

8. Homeostasis actually is balance, as in synonymous. Unclear why that is included. 

As to the last (unnumbered) point, I don't find your interest, enthusiasm or topic disturbing in the least. By all means continue and I look forward to your research and results. However, I supportively suggest a more cautious approach to conclusions. Can you differentiate between causation and correlation? With any research , what would the null hypothesis look like?

Again, I'm hoping this sounds constructive and not condescending. Capturing tone is not always one of my strengths.


----------



## glitch4200

zenoandthetortoise said:


> Hi there. I'm going to take you at your word that you are welcome to constructive criticism and/or suggestions with an eye toward furthering this line of inquiry. Please note I am not an anti-coconut activist and have no tortoise in this fight, as it were. That said, my input is as follows, notated in reference to your paragraph:
> 
> 1. To achieve scientific rigor, it is your responsibility to establish evidence. Making a claim and then challenging others to disprove is to ask the audience to do the heavy lifting. You supply the claim, you supply the evidence.
> 
> 2. The summary provided in paragraph 2 is too simplistic in cause (the oft-mentioned IR-A). Any wavelength of IR (aka 'heat) is desiccating. To my knowledge, this concept is not in question.
> 
> 3. This conclusion does not follow from the evidence provided. It may be true, but it is not established as presented. In fact, it is a restatement of hypothesis presented as a conclusion.
> 
> 4. The uneven heating and drying illustrated by the IR spectrographs are directly related to narrow beam spot lamps and high volume to surface area (adult) tortoise shells. Multiple, smaller wattage floodlights closely mimic solar heating.
> 
> 5. Nothing wrong with observational data. I wonder if there would be a way to measure the flattening you describe?
> 
> 6. This is an uncontested point that serves no purpose as stated.
> 
> 7. This feels like a straw man argument. Who is advocating only twice a week soaks and less than ideal RH? Also, if this were indeed the crux of the issue, why wouldn't the appropriate response be more frequent soaks and higher humidity?
> 
> 8. Homeostasis actually is balance, as in synonymous. Unclear why that is included.
> 
> As to the last (unnumbered) point, I don't find your interest, enthusiasm or topic disturbing in the least. By all means continue and I look forward to your research and results. However, I supportively suggest a more cautious approach to conclusions. Can you differentiate between causation and correlation? With any research , what would the null hypothesis look like?
> 
> Again, I'm hoping this sounds constructive and not condescending. Capturing tone is not always one of my strengths.



Finally someone calls me out on something hahaha! I will gladly accept your constructed criticism ! How else can i learn to do this right. I am very much not that smart in certain aspects. One is writing in a scientific manner even though i am trying my thoughts and ideas can definetly be disorganized as you very much point out. 

1. You are right. My only evidence so are these, before and after photo's from the last 7 weeks and any other data i can record as time moves forward. But i needed to ground my idea as plausible to others. I needed to try and have my idea not be dismissed off the bat. 

2. With this one i really felt the reader needed to know "unfiltered" IR-A (aka lamps) dehydrate the tortoise. And there tortoise is being exposed to this dehydrating effect. This concept is in support of my hypothesis. That there is a problem in indoor kept enclosures that use lamps to properly heat the tortoise and people should be aware of the effect these lamps have on the tortoise. The only counteractive measures we have as keepers for proper hydration of bodily functions is soaking, ambient humidity, drinking water. That is it... If a keeper doesn't pay attention to humidity that is one less counteractive measure too combat the lamps dehydrating effect. Now consider the amount of people that get misinformed to only soak there tortoise once or twice a week.. That is such little access to water. Another disadvantage and not really effective counteractive measure against those damn dehydrating lamps. Now we are down to our last measure. Drinking water. This is why we always say a tortoise needs access to drinking water at all times. But from my observation i RARELY see him drink from his ALWAYS fresh bowl of drinking water. I always see him drink every single time i soak him. 4x times a week without fail. To me this means if he doesn't drink much and i have bad humidity and if i didnt soak him as much as i do, he would probably die of dehydration or have some long term issues from either micronutrients building up(kidney stones) or some type of MBD/other illness. 

3.A bunch of these points were just me restating my thoughts, that one I was actually trying to repeat the hypothesis. 

4. I have an instagram: Glitch4200. I have been searching peoples pages for tortoises and let me tell you something. The Majority of peoples habitats i am seeing are glass terrariums with only 2 lights, shitty substrate, NO or LITTLE humidity. oh and i ask them! You wouldn't believe some of the conditions these tortoises are going through.. I see many wrong ideas being put into the heads of these keepers all over, more then i see the appropriate husbandry and set up like one should take care of a tortoise. One narrow beam heat lamp and one (usually coiled bulb) UVB light. These owners have mostly adult tortoises. They provide very bad or lack heating, airflow, and sufficient UVB lighting. There are so many problems with this it has been blowing my mind.. The narrow beam applied to all these tortoises and localized heating can occur at those levels when I have seen the only basking spot being like 7inches above the shell with a 75 watt bulb. I KNOW DAMN WELL THAT SHELL IS BEING OVERHEATED. I freak the F out in my head. They do not have multiple bulbs to mimick a warm environment. Its the opposite. its like what is the little amount of care i can do for it.. I ont know if they dont realize or what. But i have said something to every single one of them. Some respond well, others just don't give a F. And others are ungodly thankful cuz they had no idea.

5. Idk i wish there was i need like a measuring microscope or something. Anyone have idea how i can measure that?

6 & 7. Again, i have asked every single person with a tortoise on instagram that i have seen so far all the basic husbandry questions and the asnwers i get would blow your minds. Most people it seems dont pay much attention to humidity or soaking as much cuz they dont "think" that a desert tortoise needs much water......... SERIOUSLY.... the answer i have gotten are dumbfounding. most answer are they soak about 2 times a week. I did get alot of 3 times a week. But some only like once a week... with no humidity control. That only leaves water in the habitat its ONLY source of hydration. not ok. I am not saying anyone is advocating it here on this forum, but i feel we should be stressing constant soakings at least 4x a week , its not going to harm them it gives them more opportunities to drink water and stay hydrated, passing unused micronutrients safely without buildup in various organ, prevent stones. I mean hydration should be stressed the most nothing else works without it. Its like the base of all bodily functions. No water, no function. with these i was just restating some points, disorganized i know 

8. You are very correct. I guess it just sounded good ! How about we just need to have a balanced approach in this experiment.

9. I will definitely take a closer look before i start making conclusions. I appreciate calling me out on certain stuff. I can only learn from it in the long run. Its interesting to hear what others have to say. I can differentiate between the two. At least i would hope so considering my major is psychology.. I like to blur lines when i am not suppose to ..


----------



## glitch4200

Alaskamike said:


> The pictures seem to show a significant smoothing of shell. Old growth especially.
> 
> I would be interested in seeing a photo from the rear , positioned like your first original photo from rear.
> 
> The back portion of the shell shows dimples and creases that appear to be hydration problems in old growth.
> 
> I know it's only been a short time you've been using this , so I wouldn't expect major change , but would like to see it now.



I took these this morning. I tried to get all the angles I could for you . I had to upload from my phone sorry it couldn't be thumbnailed nicely for comparison . I will do that again soon. And Continue to take those pics for comparison .


----------



## inkling13

HI, I don't post on the forums too often but this thread caught my eye and I just finished reading all ten pages. I'd always been curious on applying oil or moisturizers to shells, I work with horses where hoof oil is commonly used to combat dryness and I've seen it help my horse's feet in the dry season. I'd never tried it on my tortoises though because of it's UV blocking properties. Granted, the arguments I'd heard against it all implied that the tortoise absorbs most of it's UV through the carapace which apparently is untrue. I use a closed chamber for my two Red Foots which helps keep the ambient humidity up and I try to employ the 'spray them until they drip' method of spritzing their shells with a spray bottle a few times a day. Even with the closed chamber it can be difficult to keep the humidity where I want it (although it's infinitely better then when I was using an open table). When the humidity is right my tort's shells are lovely and glossy but they will get dull and dried out as soon as that humidity drops. I am interested in giving the coconut oil a try. 

I did want to contest one thing though, you seem to be pretty adamant that soaking twice a week or less is a dangerously low amount. I would argue that it depends entirely on the tortoise involved. I understand why soaking more often is important for your little one if they so rarely use the water dish available to them but some tortoises utilize their dishes a lot. I know my Red Foots are a tropical species, and a desert species may have different natural behaviors, but my guys play in their water dishes all the time. I typically do a force soak once a week or less because I watch them soak themselves, drink, and generally muck about in the water ever single day. I often give them fresh water at lunch time only to have it become a muddy poopy mess by dinner and need to scrub it out again. Forced soaks four times a week could be the right amount for some individuals, but others might not need it quite so often. Heck, earlier this year I ran into the issue of my girl Tortellini _sleeping_ _all night _in her water dish. I'd rearranged the enclosure and had the dish too close to her mercury vapor bulb, she was treating it as her own personal hot tub and I was starting to get concerned of the possibility of shell rot. I moved it a few inches further from the light and she went back to her usual routine without issue.

Anyway, I do want to give the coconut oil a try. Maybe it will decrease the number of spray bottle mistings we do.


----------



## Cowboy_Ken

inkling13 said:


> because of it's UV blocking properties. Granted, the arguments I'd heard against it all implied that the tortoise absorbs most of it's UV through the carapace which apparently is untrue.


What makes you think the carapace doesn't absorb the bulk of the uv needed by a tortoise, and what makes you believe the oil doesn't block uv absorption?


----------



## Alaskamike

High Humidity. 
And frequent soaks 
This has become more or less the standard of proper care for young tortoises with ample evidence provided over years of care that shells are healthier - less to no pyramiding - and there does not appear to be negative effects 

Enclosed chambers are used to keep ambient humidity in the 70-95% range. Some keep it from 90-100%. 

It is clear that the dry 20-40% humidity of most houses is not sufficient to avoid the desiccating effects of heat lamps. 

That said, I have some concerns over mold / mildew in an enclosed wet system. I say this because many molds and spores here in Florida flourish, especially with lack of sunlight and daily drying. These spores are not native to the species I keep. 

This is not a concern over shell rot , ( though that is possible , especially if an opening from an injury is present) there are ways to check for that and preventative measures. This is a concern for inhalation of the spores. Which is not visible and can damage. 

Many types of molds are extremely dangerous To health , especially the Infamous " black mold" found in much of the U.S. 

This is an issue discussed only occasionally on the forum and only when mold is visible on surfaces. , as it is not much of an issue in very dry climates where mold is not common. But in central and much of the Southern US it is. 

Here is where I advocate for balance. Eco- systems in nature are all about balance. I believe animal health often is also. 

Too much of a good thing is ... Well ... Too much. We all know this intuitively as well as in practical application. 

Risking sacrilege here , I believe this can apply to wet environments in a closed system. 

At times the OP has gone a bit overboard in application - maybe even claims for EVCO , however this enthusiasm is common in any new husbandry technique. Lets not throw the ' baby out with the bath water " 

Perhaps the application of EVCO to plastron as well as Caprice can help our torts maintain internally the hydration received. Even fight mold & mildew. Maybe a more modest humidity level of 60-80% is more conducive to avoiding mold and mildew problems in enclosed system. Maybe allowing your chambers to dry out occasionally is a good thing. 

Sometimes we become so attached to an idea we become blind to modification, or even advances in our understanding. This we can readily see almost daily on this forum with new people who resist good tested advice. 

Knowledge is constantly expanding Through trial and error, accidental discovery and scientific experimentation. This is not a threat to wisdom - it is the very definition of wisdom. 
Mike


----------



## inkling13

Cowboy_Ken said:


> What makes you think the carapace doesn't absorb the bulk of the uv needed by a tortoise, and what makes you believe the oil doesn't block uv absorption?


Well, I don't know of any studies done on the production of vitamin D3 in the keratin tissue of shells but for every other animal reliant on the production of vitamin D3 via UV, chemical process occurs in the epidermis of the skin. I found one website that goes in depth about the production of UV in reptiles and the differences in absorption of species with different skin thicknesses: http://www.uvguide.co.uk/skintests.htm Granted, they are focusing more on reptiles in general rather than tortoises specifically but it's still a fascinating read. Here is a quote outlining vitamin D3 production:

"Reptile skin, like that of many vertebrates, has two principle layers: the dermis, which is the deeper layer of connective tissue with a rich supply of blood vessels and nerves, and the epidermis which in reptiles consists of up to seven sub-layers or "strata" of closely packed cells, forming the body's outer protective coating. The epidermis has no blood supply, but it's innermost living cells obtain their nourishment by the diffusion of substances to and from the capillaries at the surface of the dermis directly beneath them. It is on the cell membranes of these cells that pre-vitamin D3 is synthesized from the cholesterol precursor, under ultraviolet light. Once formed there, the pre-D3 is ejected from the cell membrane to the intercellular fluid where it is isomerised to vitamin D3. This diffuses into the capillaries of the dermis, is picked up by the D3 plasma binding protein and carried into the body."

Perhaps some D3 is produced in the shell, I'm in no way positive that it isn't. Skin does contain keratin as well but the keratin in shell/horn/hooves it is hardened or keratinized and currently I can't find much information on how that affects or inhibits D3 production. I am happy to continue researching it though since I am truly curious to learn the answer. Please let me know if you have found any studies on the subject, I'd be interested in reading them.

As for coconut oil's ability to block UV absorption, I know glitch4200 had the statistic of 90% blocking but most of the references I found claim that coconut oil is only about 20% affective at blocking UV, http://www.medicaldaily.com/natural...in-coconut-oil-protect-against-uv-rays-256311 With that in mind I think I'll try applying coconut oil once a week and observe the effects. This way the shell wouldn't be slathered up all the time and what UV absorption it does block wouldn't be constant. It will be an experiment and I'm curious to see the results.


----------



## inkling13

Alaskamike said:


> Perhaps the application of EVCO to plastron as well as Caprice can help our torts maintain internally the hydration received. Even fight mold & mildew. Maybe a more modest humidity level of 60-80% is more conducive to avoiding mold and mildew problems in enclosed system. Maybe allowing your chambers to dry out occasionally is a good thing.
> 
> Sometimes we become so attached to an idea we become blind to modification, or even advances in our understanding. This we can readily see almost daily on this forum with new people who resist good tested advice.
> 
> Knowledge is constantly expanding Through trial and error, accidental discovery and scientific experimentation. This is not a threat to wisdom - it is the very definition of wisdom.
> Mike


Well said Mike. 60-80% humidity is what I aim for in my enclosures and I try to never let it get below 50%. Anything higher than 80% and I'll run into mold and mildew, of which the negative affects can easily outweigh the positives of high humidity.


----------



## Aunt Caffy

inkling13 said:


> HI, I don't post on the forums too often but this thread caught my eye and I just finished reading all ten pages. I'd always been curious on applying oil or moisturizers to shells, I work with horses where hoof oil is commonly used to combat dryness and I've seen it help my horse's feet in the dry season. I'd never tried it on my tortoises though because of it's UV blocking properties. Granted, the arguments I'd heard against it all implied that the tortoise absorbs most of it's UV through the carapace which apparently is untrue. I use a closed chamber for my two Red Foots which helps keep the ambient humidity up and I try to employ the 'spray them until they drip' method of spritzing their shells with a spray bottle a few times a day. Even with the closed chamber it can be difficult to keep the humidity where I want it (although it's infinitely better then when I was using an open table). When the humidity is right my tort's shells are lovely and glossy but they will get dull and dried out as soon as that humidity drops. I am interested in giving the coconut oil a try.
> 
> I did want to contest one thing though, you seem to be pretty adamant that soaking twice a week or less is a dangerously low amount. I would argue that it depends entirely on the tortoise involved. I understand why soaking more often is important for your little one if they so rarely use the water dish available to them but some tortoises utilize their dishes a lot. I know my Red Foots are a tropical species, and a desert species may have different natural behaviors, but my guys play in their water dishes all the time. I typically do a force soak once a week or less because I watch them soak themselves, drink, and generally muck about in the water ever single day. I often give them fresh water at lunch time only to have it become a muddy poopy mess by dinner and need to scrub it out again. Forced soaks four times a week could be the right amount for some individuals, but others might not need it quite so often. Heck, earlier this year I ran into the issue of my girl Tortellini _sleeping_ _all night _in her water dish. I'd rearranged the enclosure and had the dish too close to her mercury vapor bulb, she was treating it as her own personal hot tub and I was starting to get concerned of the possibility of shell rot. I moved it a few inches further from the light and she went back to her usual routine without issue.
> 
> Anyway, I do want to give the coconut oil a try. Maybe it will decrease the number of spray bottle mistings we do.


That personal hot tub comment was so funny and cute. 

I've caught my Cherryhead hanging out directly under the main humidifier outlet for hours at a time. Little stinker.


----------



## glitch4200

inkling13 said:


> HI, I don't post on the forums too often but this thread caught my eye and I just finished reading all ten pages. I'd always been curious on applying oil or moisturizers to shells, I work with horses where hoof oil is commonly used to combat dryness and I've seen it help my horse's feet in the dry season. I'd never tried it on my tortoises though because of it's UV blocking properties. Granted, the arguments I'd heard against it all implied that the tortoise absorbs most of it's UV through the carapace which apparently is untrue. I use a closed chamber for my two Red Foots which helps keep the ambient humidity up and I try to employ the 'spray them until they drip' method of spritzing their shells with a spray bottle a few times a day. Even with the closed chamber it can be difficult to keep the humidity where I want it (although it's infinitely better then when I was using an open table). When the humidity is right my tort's shells are lovely and glossy but they will get dull and dried out as soon as that humidity drops. I am interested in giving the coconut oil a try.
> 
> I did want to contest one thing though, you seem to be pretty adamant that soaking twice a week or less is a dangerously low amount. I would argue that it depends entirely on the tortoise involved. I understand why soaking more often is important for your little one if they so rarely use the water dish available to them but some tortoises utilize their dishes a lot. I know my Red Foots are a tropical species, and a desert species may have different natural behaviors, but my guys play in their water dishes all the time. I typically do a force soak once a week or less because I watch them soak themselves, drink, and generally muck about in the water ever single day. I often give them fresh water at lunch time only to have it become a muddy poopy mess by dinner and need to scrub it out again. Forced soaks four times a week could be the right amount for some individuals, but others might not need it quite so often. Heck, earlier this year I ran into the issue of my girl Tortellini _sleeping_ _all night _in her water dish. I'd rearranged the enclosure and had the dish too close to her mercury vapor bulb, she was treating it as her own personal hot tub and I was starting to get concerned of the possibility of shell rot. I moved it a few inches further from the light and she went back to her usual routine without issue.
> 
> Anyway, I do want to give the coconut oil a try. Maybe it will decrease the number of spray bottle mistings we do.



First, I should probably clarify that this is loose framework for an idea. I think its all about personal judgement as well as species of tortoise you have and there daily behaviors. I mean i have a desert species kept under high powered lamps for proper heat, on an open table top that really struggles to maintain humidity, althugh my fight with humidity is now better since i got a handy dandy high-pressure spray bottle. No more tigger finger haha. I also dont see him drink his water too often. So me needing to soak him every other day is really necessary. If you see your little ones always in water then force soaking 4x a week like i said is for sure way to much. 

A tortoise hot tub i love it. Please post your observations on here if you get the chance, the more data the better.


----------



## glitch4200

Alaskamike said:


> At times the OP has gone a bit overboard in application - maybe even claims for EVCO , however this enthusiasm is common in any new husbandry technique. Lets not throw the ' baby out with the bath water "
> 
> Perhaps the application of EVCO to plastron as well as Caprice can help our torts maintain internally the hydration received. Even fight mold & mildew. Maybe a more modest humidity level of 60-80% is more conducive to avoiding mold and mildew problems in enclosed system. Maybe allowing your chambers to dry out occasionally is a good thing.
> 
> Sometimes we become so attached to an idea we become blind to modification, or even advances in our understanding. This we can readily see almost daily on this forum with new people who resist good tested advice.
> 
> Knowledge is constantly expanding Through trial and error, accidental discovery and scientific experimentation. This is not a threat to wisdom - it is the very definition of wisdom.
> Mike



I am a very enthusiastic person haha. And i very much go overboard in my thought when i get a crazy idea in my head and it actually seems to be do playing out awesomely! I have definitely went overboard at the beginning but now my balance craving has been kicked in and i am trying to look at these applicatiions from different angles playing with drying out time and how much i apply.

This is a very new idea and I people do tend to want to stick what works for them from the test of time, but as time goes on with this like all we can be more sure of the idea itself. 

This quote is awesome. <3


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## glitch4200

Soo. I was at Petco on the 5th. I saw a bunch of tortoise they were selling. I was horrified at the conditions they were in, one in particular was in there that was really tiny, smaller then the rest. Active, but slow. The temps were about 75 degrees. Humidity was also low. There was mold growing in the small mount of substrate that was in there. The space for FOUR tortoises was inhumane. I took pictures and posted them on here to identify if this was a female. I really think she is. Her tail was so damn small and had that (*) shape and was short and fat and I have nibbles and I remember that his tail was longer, with a slit in his tail. So i am still thinking she is a female. She is about 4ish inches long.

She was severely dehydrated.




first bath. which by the way didn't make those dry lines go away for long.


i applied a super thin coat of EVCO to see its effects and those lines went awway and have stayed away since, and i have bathed 4 times since the 6th. 


that was breakfast... she ate all of that plus the entire plate at lunch.. She was starved.


dominated the dish. loves all the stuff nibbles doesn't like ie herbal mix, mazuri, zoomed grassland as toppers. 

I am going to begin applying oil on her consistently soon, i need to weigh her and size her exactly and put together a data sheet for her. She is now part of this grand health experiment. You can tell there is a start to the keratin dehydration considering the conditions she was living in, i am not suprised. She is very smooth, but you can see the overlapping of scutes which seem to buckle at certain points through the shell. 

She is slowly warming up to me  She is in quaratine for now. She has been watching me. I pet her on occasion. I show her nibbles through the glass. I am keeping her full, and in heat up to 95 degrees which she can not seem to get enough of.. She will be taken to the vet after the first of the year, low on cash for now. This will be a nice addition to the data. But more important she is safe and in a very loving home. I couldn't save them all but.. at least i know i could save one. Some peace of mind i have now..


----------



## Elohi

Nice save. She is adorable.


----------



## Earth Mama

glitch4200 said:


> Soo. I was at Petco on the 5th. I saw a bunch of tortoise they were selling. I was horrified at the conditions they were in, one in particular was in there that was really tiny, smaller then the rest. Active, but slow. The temps were about 75 degrees. Humidity was also low. There was mold growing in the small mount of substrate that was in there. The space for FOUR tortoises was inhumane. I took pictures and posted them on here to identify if this was a female. I really think she is. Her tail was so damn small and had that (*) shape and was short and fat and I have nibbles and I remember that his tail was longer, with a slit in his tail. So i am still thinking she is a female. She is about 4ish inches long.
> View attachment 108864
> She was severely dehydrated.
> View attachment 108865
> 
> View attachment 108866
> 
> first bath. which by the way didn't make those dry lines go away for long.
> View attachment 108867
> 
> i applied a super thin coat of EVCO to see its effects and those lines went awway and have stayed away since, and i have bathed 4 times since the 6th.
> View attachment 108868
> 
> that was breakfast... she ate all of that plus the entire plate at lunch.. She was starved.
> View attachment 108870
> 
> dominated the dish. loves all the stuff nibbles doesn't like ie herbal mix, mazuri, zoomed grassland as toppers.
> 
> I am going to begin applying oil on her consistently soon, i need to weigh her and size her exactly and put together a data sheet for her. She is now part of this grand health experiment. You can tell there is a start to the keratin dehydration considering the conditions she was living in, i am not suprised. She is very smooth, but you can see the overlapping of scutes which seem to buckle at certain points through the shell.
> 
> She is slowly warming up to me  She is in quaratine for now. She has been watching me. I pet her on occasion. I show her nibbles through the glass. I am keeping her full, and in heat up to 95 degrees which she can not seem to get enough of.. She will be taken to the vet after the first of the year, low on cash for now. This will be a nice addition to the data. But more important she is safe and in a very loving home. I couldn't save them all but.. at least i know i could save one. Some peace of mind i have now..


@glitch4200
I with you on this one. I dec 3 I had a similar experience. Check out the thread called "another russian nightmare" in the russian tortoise subtopic in the Species Specific tab. 
Cute little girl you have there. Luck tort. (I don't know how to attach a link using my phone  )


----------



## puffy137

Even human skin can look dry, I think I remember Oprah saying her skin looked 'ashy' without oil. I have started using coconut oil from India on mine & they do look a lot better, whether or not it has other advantages I've yet to discover.


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## glitch4200

Earth Mama said:


> @glitch4200
> I with you on this one. I dec 3 I had a similar experience. Check out the thread called "another russian nightmare" in the russian tortoise subtopic in the Species Specific tab.
> Cute little girl you have there. Luck tort. (I don't know how to attach a link using my phone  )



I will check it out. Thank you she is a very shy right now but it's ok  she is coming around and learning who her new friend is.


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## glitch4200

**UPDATE** So, Pebbles is 4.25 inches about. and weighs 308 grams. I have had her since the 6th, of December. She now allows me unlimited head rubs (in exchange for breakfast) and her poo went a smelly (what smelled like intense chemicals and ammonia) to a solid non-smelly bright green to match what she has been eating. Her "petco" smell as i call it, is about gone. I never had that with nibbles. He never smelled like that.... She was moved out the glass home and into a big Rubbermaid rigged up, she is happy, i see her regularly drinking the clean water i put out. As well, stays in her bathe for all 30 minutes each day for the first couple weeks she was bathed, the first week was 2 times a day, she now bathes on nibbles schedule, along with coconut oil applications. Both of them are subjected to those lamps constantly so its only fair in my opinion to do this for them. Some things i have noticed that is new in my observations was nibbles is growing and his grow lines around all the scutes seem to be even and nice, He has actually dropped 11 grams over the past 2 months, he was at 344 grams early fall. Now he is 334 grams. He has been sleeping longer too despite the consistent lighting he has that is very bright and warm, He can choose a temperature range from 70 F to 101 F. He often chooses his one spot which gives him the basking option of 100 degrees, i often am taking his temp an he reads from 96 to 99 degrees, shell and skin which he chooses to be in.. His behavior tells me a lot about what who he evolved. He wants it warm as hell, and is happiest in the upper 90's. Pebbles, has a similar range, but being in a smaller habitat, ambient temps are like 91 degrees, basking at 100 degrees, and low side at 75 degrees in his hide. She is settling in as well, what is interesting is the complete difference in colors, I feel they are from complete different areas. All very recent pics.


after most recent application for Pebbles.





Happy Holiday


----------



## Turtlepete

This is interesting….

You mention it has anti-fungal and anti-bacterial properties. In South FL, where I live, flooding is common, and more often then not in the summer my adult red's are pretty much saturated. While they absolutely love it, shell fungus on the plastron and marginals is a huge issue due to the moisture that I have to constantly watch out for. I ponder if this could be useful to occasionally apply a small amount to the plastron. Perhaps it would help prevent shell fungus in this application. Maybe I'll give it a shot with one of my girls that has had issues in the past.


----------



## glitch4200

Turtlepete said:


> This is interesting….
> 
> You mention it has anti-fungal and anti-bacterial properties. In South FL, where I live, flooding is common, and more often then not in the summer my adult red's are pretty much saturated. While they absolutely love it, shell fungus on the plastron and marginals is a huge issue due to the moisture that I have to constantly watch out for. I ponder if this could be useful to occasionally apply a small amount to the plastron. Perhaps it would help prevent shell fungus in this application. Maybe I'll give it a shot with one of my girls that has had issues in the past.


 
Pictures of before and after applications and what you observed over time would be a great addition to this compilation of data. Let me know how it goes. Same goes for anyone else trying this.


----------



## gingerbee

Hi wondering about trying coconut oil. I'm not able to post pics of the one I found but here's what the bottle says coconut oil natures way brand extra virgin organic Will this work?


----------



## Yvonne G

What you want should say on the label - "Cold pressed, extra virgin"


----------



## cmacusa3

Why are people using this? Is just to make a shiner shell?


----------



## kdub

Turtlepete said:


> This is interesting….
> 
> You mention it has anti-fungal and anti-bacterial properties. In South FL, where I live, flooding is common, and more often then not in the summer my adult red's are pretty much saturated. While they absolutely love it, shell fungus on the plastron and marginals is a huge issue due to the moisture that I have to constantly watch out for. I ponder if this could be useful to occasionally apply a small amount to the plastron. Perhaps it would help prevent shell fungus in this application. Maybe I'll give it a shot with one of my girls that has had issues in the past.



I just put the littlest bit into my palm and massage into my skin so there's just a very light coating on my hands. After my little tort gets done with his soak I rub my hands over both sides of his shell then gently wipe him with a paper towel. I've done this twice now about 5 days apart.


----------



## kdub

Abramsmytankturtle said:


> Why are people using this? Is just to make a shiner shell?


People are trying this to see if helps to keep the carapace from drying out and to protect against shell rot on the plastron. Shininess is just an added bonus.


----------



## cmacusa3

Gotcha, I read some of the posts. I'm still not sold on this idea.


----------



## WithLisa

Interesting thread and pictures! 

In the past I've used different edible oils on shells, because it was recommended in every book about tortoises to use it regularly.
I can't say that it did any harm, but it always took many weeks for the oil to fade away and when it was finally gone (at least in the visible top layer ), the surface looked worse than before. 
The authors of all modern german books (maybe of the last 10 years) strongly advise against the use of oil (but they only write about tortoises in outdoor enclosures with only little exposure to heat bulbs).



Alaskamike said:


> I know keratin is porous, but it would surprise me if absorption increased the more often applied I have no idea why this might be so. Anyone hazard a guess ?


It makes sense to me. Put a drop of water on a dry fabric, it will take some time to be absorbed completely. If you wipe it off soon enough, the fabric will still be nearly dry. If you put a drop of water on a wet fabric, it will be absorbed instantly.

I guess the oil seeps into deeper and deeper layers of Keratin every time it's applied.

Keratin becomes soft and pliable when it's saturated with water. Maybe it's the same when it's saturated with oil, I really don't know. But this would explain, why the shell grows smooth with the oil - the oil can't evaporate and so the Keratin can never "dry out".
It would also explain, why my tortoise's shells always looked worse after the oil, since saturated soft Keratin gets scratches more easily, even though they are not visible because of the oil.
I'm sure the shiny surface and brighter colour is just a visual effect that shows that the oil has seeped deep into the shell.

I can't say if it's harmful or maybe even has a positive effect. But it's definitely quite unnatural.
And even if the oil is nontoxic and known to have positive effects... Once it has seeped into the shell, it won't evaporate and can't be washed off, it will probably stay there for months or even years and become rancid.

Just some thoughts... I hope you'll keep us informed of the progress of your experiment, I'm very curious.


----------



## glitch4200

I see it is time to post finally. I have been waiting lol. Nibbles has officially been recieving consistsnt EVCO applications that range from 2x- 3x a week for now a tad over 3 months. I feel rotating the coconut oil applications allows for more drying out time for the keratin. 
I have been noticing that the oil has not been effecting the Temps of the tortoise as it basks or goes into a hide. Thermo regulation isn't effected to a point that would be harmful even if it does vary a degree or 2, as I see with and without application according to my data. 

The activity levels of pebbles since her arrival has only risen and she has been subjected to a humid, soaked daily, oil applied multiple times a week type environment. She has gained a healthy amount of weight now and soaks every day for attest 10 minutes. She feels nice and heavy like she should. She enjoys the applications and I have never seen her act like the application are hurting her, and she will stretch her neck out to get a oil massage on her head and neck. She can smell the oil she tried to eat my finger. Her Temps remain stable after application and she never goes above 98 degrees even with oil just applied. 

Nibbles has been in winter mode, going to bed as soon as it's dark outside about 5pm, it's like clock work. He basks all day and loves to his 100 degrees. Even with oil application and me not changing his light depth of in a long time, he still rarely goes over 105 and that is his choice he can easily move 2 steps ND be cooler. His temperature gradient is from 100 to 70, with many places to go. He wakes up about 830, every day and has maintained his activity through out all these coconut oil applications. He too loves his oil massage and will often bask for a long time right after or until he hits upper 90s. His eating habits seem to have slowed since end of summer but I find that to be normal considering he is a tortoise and they usually are hibernating right now. He ate a lot the last couple days though finishing his plate. He gets bathed daily or just about daily and he gets to choose how long he bathes. Which is often about 12 minutes, since I bathe him so often. Since he has been receiving the applications the longest and I have yet to find something that would prevent me from applying this oil like I am. I just haven't found a reason that is harmful if done correctly and in moderation with drying out time.


----------



## glitch4200

WithLisa said:


> Interesting thread and pictures!
> 
> In the past I've used different edible oils on shells, because it was recommended in every book about tortoises to use it regularly.
> I can't say that it did any harm, but it always took many weeks for the oil to fade away and when it was finally gone (at least in the visible top layer ), the surface looked worse than before.
> The authors of all modern german books (maybe of the last 10 years) strongly advise against the use of oil (but they only write about tortoises in outdoor enclosures with only little exposure to heat bulbs).
> 
> 
> It makes sense to me. Put a drop of water on a dry fabric, it will take some time to be absorbed completely. If you wipe it off soon enough, the fabric will still be nearly dry. If you put a drop of water on a wet fabric, it will be absorbed instantly.
> 
> I guess the oil seeps into deeper and deeper layers of Keratin every time it's applied.
> 
> Keratin becomes soft and pliable when it's saturated with water. Maybe it's the same when it's saturated with oil, I really don't know. But this would explain, why the shell grows smooth with the oil - the oil can't evaporate and so the Keratin can never "dry out".
> It would also explain, why my tortoise's shells always looked worse after the oil, since saturated soft Keratin gets scratches more easily, even though they are not visible because of the oil.
> I'm sure the shiny surface and brighter colour is just a visual effect that shows that the oil has seeped deep into the shell.
> 
> I can't say if it's harmful or maybe even has a positive effect. But it's definitely quite unnatural.
> And even if the oil is nontoxic and known to have positive effects... Once it has seeped into the shell, it won't evaporate and can't be washed off, it will probably stay there for months or even years and become rancid.
> 
> Just some thoughts... I hope you'll keep us informed of the progress of your experiment, I'm very curious.


 

I like your guess. Except the part of it staying in the keratin, I notice the extra virgin coconut oil drys away very quickly when I have been allowing my dry out times. I think the keratin responds to the oil just like it does with water but the IR-A (heat) can't penatrate the keratin to take as much moisture as it would without the coconut oil present. This is my guess. And since it doesn't take as much water, the keratin won't proliferate as a result to try and prevent unnecessary evaporation of moisture. Thus preventing bumps (pyramiding) shells. This is an unnatural solution to an unnatural problem and best believe putting tortoises under heat lamps is unnatural too. And this is where my idea comes into play, with indoor kept tortoises, not tortoises that are mostly outside in the beautiful 'filtered' sun.


----------



## glitch4200

WithLisa said:


> Interesting thread and pictures!
> 
> In the past I've used different edible oils on shells, because it was recommended in every book about tortoises to use it regularly.
> I can't say that it did any harm, but it always took many weeks for the oil to fade away and when it was finally gone (at least in the visible top layer ), the surface looked worse than before.
> The authors of all modern german books (maybe of the last 10 years) strongly advise against the use of oil (but they only write about tortoises in outdoor enclosures with only little exposure to heat bulbs).
> 
> 
> It makes sense to me. Put a drop of water on a dry fabric, it will take some time to be absorbed completely. If you wipe it off soon enough, the fabric will still be nearly dry. If you put a drop of water on a wet fabric, it will be absorbed instantly.
> 
> I guess the oil seeps into deeper and deeper layers of Keratin every time it's applied.
> 
> Keratin becomes soft and pliable when it's saturated with water. Maybe it's the same when it's saturated with oil, I really don't know. But this would explain, why the shell grows smooth with the oil - the oil can't evaporate and so the Keratin can never "dry out".
> It would also explain, why my tortoise's shells always looked worse after the oil, since saturated soft Keratin gets scratches more easily, even though they are not visible because of the oil.
> I'm sure the shiny surface and brighter colour is just a visual effect that shows that the oil has seeped deep into the shell.
> 
> I can't say if it's harmful or maybe even has a positive effect. But it's definitely quite unnatural.
> And even if the oil is nontoxic and known to have positive effects... Once it has seeped into the shell, it won't evaporate and can't be washed off, it will probably stay there for months or even years and become rancid.
> 
> Just some thoughts... I hope you'll keep us informed of the progress of your experiment, I'm very curious.


 
I would love to know what edible oils you used and read in books. Because extra virgin coconut oil has unique properties not seen in many other applicable oils.


----------



## WithLisa

glitch4200 said:


> I would love to know what edible oils you used and read in books. Because extra virgin coconut oil has unique properties not seen in many other applicable oils.


I'm sorry, I can't remember, this was many years ago when I was still a child. I just know that we tried different oils, olive oil was one of them.
But I looked it up in two old books - one just says cooking oil, the other one recommends to rub the shell with a bacon rind.

Maybe it works better with coconut oil, but are you sure it doesn't stay in the keratin?
On Nov 19 you postet a picture:


glitch4200 said:


> I took a pic before I went to class this morning.. He hates morning pics... No oil present.


It still looks very oily to me. The rich colours of shell and skin, the surface, the shine,... everything looks completely different from all the tortoises that I know (wild ones and tortoises from outdoor enclosures without oil on their shells).
I can remember this was what my mothers torts looked like for weeks after we applied the oil (I didn't like that look, it was just too unnatural in my opinion ).


----------



## gingerbee

I just bought this to use on sparky I'm going to give it a try since she's had shell problems from injury. I'm not going to put much on. Like another poster said rub in my hands than on her shell. I'll let you know how it goes!! A couple of forum people suggested it in my posts about her shell.


----------



## glitch4200

WithLisa said:


> I'm sorry, I can't remember, this was many years ago when I was still a child. I just know that we tried different oils, olive oil was one of them.
> But I looked it up in two old books - one just says cooking oil, the other one recommends to rub the shell with a bacon rind.
> 
> Maybe it works better with coconut oil, but are you sure it doesn't stay in the keratin?
> On Nov 19 you postet a picture:
> 
> It still looks very oily to me. The rich colours of shell and skin, the surface, the shine,... everything looks completely different from all the tortoises that I know (wild ones and tortoises from outdoor enclosures without oil on their shells).
> I can remember this was what my mothers torts looked like for weeks after we applied the oil (I didn't like that look, it was just too unnatural in my opinion ).



Well just because it looks healthy doesbt mean it that oil is present. I mean it could be stuck in the keratin but still looks healthy. How many other tortoises do you know that has received so many coconut oil applications, the effect could be permanent to the look. As if the other tortoises had never had even one application it probably wouldn't look the same


----------



## Anyfoot

glitch4200 said:


> Well just because it looks healthy doesbt mean it that oil is present. I mean it could be stuck in the keratin but still looks healthy. How many other tortoises do you know that has received so many coconut oil applications, the effect could be permanent to the look. As if the other tortoises had never had even one application it probably wouldn't look the same


Hi

I have 7 adult redfoots, I got them from several different places. I've noticed the last one I got (George, about a month ago) doesn't absorb the water when I wet him. When I bathe them or pour water on there shells they all stay wet, Except Georges shell, the water blobulates and runs off as if he has been waxed. Could the last owner have been putting oil on him and if so does this prove his carapace can't absorb moisture due to oil, He has got pyramiding too. Oh and yes I made the word blobulates up.  lol


----------



## WithLisa

glitch4200 said:


> Well just because it looks healthy doesbt mean it that oil is present.


It's not about healthy or unhealthy... it just looks oily to me.
Like stone or wood can be polished until it has a natural shine, but gets a different shine if you apply oil on it.


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## gingerbee

Oh man now I don't know whether to try this or not!!!


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## glitch4200

WithLisa said:


> It's not about healthy or unhealthy... it just looks oily to me.
> Like stone or wood can be polished until it has a natural shine, but gets a different shine if you apply oil on it.


 
Looks don't really matter to me as long as no harm is coming to him and he is getting all the hydration he needs and to hope this oil is actually blocking some of the water loss as a result of 'unfiltered' IR-A coming from these lamps. Like I said unnatural solution to an unnatural issue. Coconut application to a tortoise is unnatural , I agree. But so is keeping them indoors under heat lamps and not outside but unfortunately some of us can't keep them outside for whatever reason so now having them inside under lamps presents a unique problem. 

Expecially if low ambient humidity , low soakings, and poor access to clean drinking water is established as appropriate husbandry (which we know is not correct). All tortoises that are indoor kept I feel should be bathed very often , to me I am doing it almost every day now. And they gladly accept it 95% of the time. As well as have really humid hides to retreat to if they want with at lest 50% ambient humidity to try and counteract the low humidity levels seen right under basking lamp as a result of 'unfiltered' iR-a, which I have shown can get to very unnatural humidity levels of 15% or less.

People have not really been grasping the concept of 'unfiltered' iR-a and how dangerous it can be when coupled with low ambient humidity, low soaking, and poor access to water. I have explained this to groups on Facebook recently and they yell at me and tell me I am stupid essentially. And that I have no idea what I am talking about. I may not be the smartest but I don't consider myself dumb the least bit. And I know there are very wrong to dismiss 'unfiltered' iR-a as a serious concern. that is why over 80% of the tortoise on that group where grossly deformed. They lacked any access to humidity , were told to not soak often and a lot didn't seem to have water dishs. I found it digusting and horrorfying.

I feel this is a concept owners of tortoises that are indoor kept should understand real well when housing a tortoise. The dehydration effects or 'unfiltered' iR-a can become extreme and if counter meaures are not taken you will surely develop a dehydrated tortoise , which we all know leads to so many tortoise issues from impaction to kidney stones. 

The only counter measure a keeper can take to prevent this is well established humidity , soaking very often , and always having access to clean drinking water. Those 3 are the only 3 that are somewhat accepted all around but people still argue about all 3 of those ad what is best for the tortoise. I hope extra virgin coconut oil can be added as a 4th dimension to counteracting 'unfiltered' IR-A. That is my goal here. To see if this is plausible and I think it very much is. It csn be just another added debatable husbandry technique, which is exactly what this has turned into.


----------



## Anyfoot

glitch4200 said:


> Looks don't really matter to me as long as no harm is coming to him and he is getting all the hydration he needs and to hope this oil is actually blocking some of the water loss as a result of 'unfiltered' IR-A coming from these lamps. Like I said unnatural solution to an unnatural issue. Coconut application to a tortoise is unnatural , I agree. But so is keeping them indoors under heat lamps and not outside but unfortunately some of us can't keep them outside for whatever reason so now having them inside under lamps presents a unique problem.
> 
> Expecially if low ambient humidity , low soakings, and poor access to clean drinking water is established as appropriate husbandry (which we know is not correct). All tortoises that are indoor kept I feel should be bathed very often , to me I am doing it almost every day now. And they gladly accept it 95% of the time. As well as have really humid hides to retreat to if they want with at lest 50% ambient humidity to try and counteract the low humidity levels seen right under basking lamp as a result of 'unfiltered' iR-a, which I have shown can get to very unnatural humidity levels of 15% or less.
> 
> People have not really been grasping the concept of 'unfiltered' iR-a and how dangerous it can be when coupled with low ambient humidity, low soaking, and poor access to water. I have explained this to groups on Facebook recently and they yell at me and tell me I am stupid essentially. And that I have no idea what I am talking about. I may not be the smartest but I don't consider myself dumb the least bit. And I know there are very wrong to dismiss 'unfiltered' iR-a as a serious concern. that is why over 80% of the tortoise on that group where grossly deformed. They lacked any access to humidity , were told to not soak often and a lot didn't seem to have water dishs. I found it digusting and horrorfying.
> 
> I feel this is a concept owners of tortoises that are indoor kept should understand real well when housing a tortoise. The dehydration effects or 'unfiltered' iR-a can become extreme and if counter meaures are not taken you will surely develop a dehydrated tortoise , which we all know leads to so many tortoise issues from impaction to kidney stones.
> 
> The only counter measure a keeper can take to prevent this is well established humidity , soaking very often , and always having access to clean drinking water. Those 3 are the only 3 that are somewhat accepted all around but people still argue about all 3 of those ad what is best for the tortoise. I hope extra virgin coconut oil can be added as a 4th dimension to counteracting 'unfiltered' IR-A. That is my goal here. To see if this is plausible and I think it very much is. It csn be just another added debatable husbandry technique, which is exactly what this has turned into.


Hi glitch

I have asked this before elsewhere and got no answer. You mentioned 3 hydration methods. Am I right in saying some foods also hydrate a tort. 
Also I have no problem in holding 99% humidity in my enclosure. See my other thread about worms to look at it. However under the heated end it drops to about 30/40% so i do dampen this end every other day to counter act the evaporation. I was thinking when i make my next enclosure should I blank off the heated end so torts can not bask directly underneath the heat. So basically I could have a no go zone area for torts where the heat source is that was designed to push the flow of heat towards the opposite end of the enclosure. My humidity about 3" from heat and lights is about 80 to 85% ad heat is still well up at higher levels. 

Thanks 
Craig


----------



## glitch4200

Anyfoot said:


> Hi glitch
> 
> I have asked this before elsewhere and got no answer. You mentioned 3 hydration methods. Am I right in saying some foods also hydrate a tort.
> Also I have no problem in holding 99% humidity in my enclosure. See my other thread about worms to look at it. However under the heated end it drops to about 30/40% so i do dampen this end every other day to counter act the evaporation. I was thinking when i make my next enclosure should I blank off the heated end so torts can not bask directly underneath the heat. So basically I could have a no go zone area for torts where the heat source is that was designed to push the flow of heat towards the opposite end of the enclosure. My humidity about 3" from heat and lights is about 80 to 85% ad heat is still well up at higher levels.
> 
> Thanks
> Craig


 
I would not count food as a source of hydration, russians for example are suppose to have a low moisture diet, so if your feeding them correct diet they will get very little water from there food. People would take that as , "oh yea , my tortoise is hydrated cuz I know they get there water from there food." That is false and dangerous in my opinoin. A style of thinking that could lead to severe hydration. 

I mean that encloaure sounds like a good idea. If you could still achieve proper basking temps with that, then try it. 90-99% Is very high humidity. If it is that high humdity under the lamps I would suspect you to be ok. But majority of people don't have humidity that high so those humidity levels under the heat lamp will usually never be that good under the basking lamp. I know each tortoise is different and how they react to higher and Lower levels of humidity but no tortoise should be exposed to abnormally low sustained humidity, which is often the case in low humidity habitsts that have high wattage heat lamps.


----------



## glitch4200

Soo... Sometime this week. I will be renting this infrared temperature camera. http://www.flir.com/homedepot/

I have a couple goals by doing this. I want to show you all the difference between the heating and cooling (thermoregulation) of a tortoise with and without extra virgin coconut oil applied to the shell and skin. I will compare and contrast thermal images of when EVCO is applied and when i feel it has dried out of the shell. I will also do show the heating styles of different styles of heating lamps, such as mercury vapor bulbs, incadescent bulbs, Infrared bulbs, ceramic heating elements, and UV bulbs with and without EVCO.

I had a biology peer reviewer who runs a tortoise sanctuary see what i was posting on a group in facebook and asked about the thermal images i posted from Andy Highfields research and Dr. Francis Baines talk about IR-A and dehydration. He said what i posted has some potential and that more data was required to show what i was saying about dehydration. He said he would review it, if i did it. So I decided to take it upon myself to show you all the difference in how these lamps heat indoor kept tortoises for all to see. But, even better ill show you the differences in heating with and without EVCO applications too, to see if it really effects thermo-regulation of tortoises and if so by how much and how long in time-frame. I will take readings every 10 minutes for the first 1 hour. At which point ill take a reading every 15 minutes for the next 2 hours.

This should show the heating pattern of a tortoise under different styles of lights. If anyone can add onto this for me, so i can have as realistic and error free experiment as possible please chime in. Thanks.


----------



## WithLisa

I'm looking forward to it! 
I would recommend to take more readings in the beginning, maybe after 1 minute, after 3 minutes,...) to see if it's warming up slower or faster. For comparison it would be important for him to always sit directly under the lamp (pointing straight down), but I guess that's kind of difficult since you can't tell him not to move. 

Sadly, you can't show any health implications with only one experimental animal, but it is a start.


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## glitch4200

I found it! According to the US National Library of medicine national Institute of health. Coconut oil has an SPF of 7.119 as tested by a spectrophotometer. Link here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3140123/

This gives us undeniable evidence of the uv blocking capabilities to extra virgin coconut oil.


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## glitch4200

I am trying to get the article showing all the results .


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## glitch4200

Here you go. The results link for EVCO and its true SPF. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3140123/table/T3/


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## WithLisa

So that means coconut oil blocks about 85% of the UV rays, right? That would be a great disadvantage.


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## Yvonne G

I'm pretty sure that tortoises absorb the UV through their skin. You ever notice how they spread out their legs when just sitting out in the yard under the sun?


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## AmRoKo

Yvonne is correct and it has already been stated previously, Most of the UVB is absorbed through their skin not their shell. Also coconut oil only has a spf of about 7 which is shown in that link. Pretty much it's spf is so low you really won't notice a difference in uvb blocking with or without it.


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## WithLisa

I've used oil on shells in the past. I've always tried to use only a little bit and to not get anything on the skin. But as it is warmed, oil becomes more liquid and after some basking in the sun, the skin was oily all over. I guess it's just unavoidable.
On every picture in this thread you can also see oily skin.


----------



## glitch4200

WithLisa said:


> I've used oil on shells in the past. I've always tried to use only a little bit and to not get anything on the skin. But as it is warmed, oil becomes more liquid and after some basking in the sun, the skin was oily all over. I guess it's just unavoidable.
> On every picture in this thread you can also see oily skin.



Not all oils are created equally or have the same molecule structure. Some oils absorb fast and others don't. I put the EVCO on arms and legs and top of head, which according to my nicely taken thermal imaging i can see are some of the first parts to heat up on the tortoise. My applications range from 2x to 3x a week. I feed good knowing that its so low in SPF. According to my unsubstanciated thermal pictures i am still seeing localized hot spots but i am still able to achieve full heating of my tortoises.


----------



## WithLisa

Is SPF 7 low? I use an SPF 10 sunscreen, that's more than enough for my fair skin.


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## AmRoKo

An spf of 10 is okay if you don't go out in the sun often but the recommended spf is 30 or greater if you're going to spend a significant amount of time outside and actually want the spf to be effective. Then depending on the spf you'll have to reapply it after a certain amount of time.


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## Anyfoot

Hi Glitch4200

Just few a quick questions. 

What is the distance from your bulb to your tortoises carapace?
What is the wattage of your bulb?
What type of bulb are you using?

Thank you

Craig


----------



## glitch4200

Anyfoot said:


> Hi Glitch4200
> 
> Just few a quick questions.
> 
> What is the distance from your bulb to your tortoises carapace?
> What is the wattage of your bulb?
> What type of bulb are you using?
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Craig



The distance between the bulb and carapace is 12.5 inches in my Nibbles habitat. I use a 100 watt MVB on one side and a 100 watt incandescent bulb on the other. My habitat is 4.5x2.5 for him. I also have a uvb tube 15 inches away from ground (I know kinda far). 

The distance between my bulb and carapace is 11.5 inches away from carapace. I use 2x 100 watt incandescent bulbs and a tube style uvb bulb in her habitst. All 3 lamps are same distance to her.


----------



## glitch4200

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...-linked-with-extra-virgin-coconut-oil.110736/

This is my ongoing thread on the thermal imaging i have taken to show how my tortoises heat up with my current habitat and current EVCO applications. I got over 550 pictures to share that go with time frames, that i have finally paired up with pictures so I can show you all at least show you what these lamps can do to a tortoise in terms of heating in my current set up. I have an example of what my tortoise looks like after 5 hours basking, and an example of some localized heating i saw as a result of these lamps..


----------



## glitch4200

Some more localized heating I saw after only less then 30 minutes being exposed to these lamps... I would like to note that both of them had EVCO applied the night before i took these thermal images.


----------



## glitch4200

*A compare/contrast of a fully cool just woke up nibbles to a fully heated nibbles




after 13 hours of light on. *


----------



## glitch4200

*So you know when you soak your tortoise and you use your finger to judge the temperatures for the bath water.. So i was shocked to find out that "luke warm" water measured by a finger is a lot hotter than you would think.... I always use the same finger temp guide for every bath... and then i saw this.. They never minded the temperature but it is a lot higher then you would think "luke warm" water would be.*

*


*


----------



## glitch4200

*Pebbles here is fully heated, i took this about 2 hours before lights out. So after a long day being exposed to heat. This is what she looks like after soaking in some water for like 0min, 5 min, 10min and 13 min.*


----------



## WithLisa

glitch4200 said:


> Some more localized heating I saw after only less then 30 minutes being exposed to these lamps... I would like to note that both of them had EVCO applied the night before i took these thermal images.


I don't think that the EVCO changes anything about the way they heat up. I guess it slows down the whole process a little bit, but it's just a thin layer and can't change the thermal conductivity and capacity of the shell and skin. 

But your pictures show very well how bad the heat bulb works. Even after quite long basking there is still a 20° difference between top and bottom of the shell. Maybe it would help to put a flat stone under the bulb, to get some heat from below?


----------



## TortsNTurtles

glitch4200 said:


> *So you know when you soak your tortoise and you use your finger to judge the temperatures for the bath water.. So i was shocked to find out that "luke warm" water measured by a finger is a lot hotter than you would think.... I always use the same finger temp guide for every bath... and then i saw this.. They never minded the temperature but it is a lot higher then you would think "luke warm" water would be.*
> 
> *
> View attachment 116113
> View attachment 116114
> *



That is true. I learned that adding water to my turtles tank. I was surprised at what felt warm to me was a higher temp. than she needed for her tank. Temp. guns are good for soaks too.


----------



## Anyfoot

@glitch4200

Hi

Do you have the equipment to do an experiment with heat distance related to humidity loss and how even the heat distribution is.

3 set ups.

1 x 100watt bulb at 12" high on a thermostat to get 90degf 
2 x 50watt bulbs spaced at 6"ish apart at 12" high on a thermostat to get 90degf
1 x 150watt bulb at 18" high on a thermostat to get 90degf

Then could you check humidity below the bulb at tortoise level and how evenly the heat is distributed around a tortoise carapace.

If there is a difference then the next natural step would be with the one that has the best results, move the heat as high as possible but so it doesn't lose the required 90degf. 



Cheers

Craig


----------



## glitch4200

Anyfoot said:


> @glitch4200
> 
> Hi
> 
> Do you have the equipment to do an experiment with heat distance related to humidity loss and how even the heat distribution is.
> 
> 3 set ups.
> 
> 1 x 100watt bulb at 12" high on a thermostat to get 90degf
> 2 x 50watt bulbs spaced at 6"ish apart at 12" high on a thermostat to get 90degf
> 1 x 150watt bulb at 18" high on a thermostat to get 90degf
> 
> Then could you check humidity below the bulb at tortoise level and how evenly the heat is distributed around a tortoise carapace.
> 
> If there is a difference then the next natural step would be with the one that has the best results, move the heat as high as possible but so it doesn't lose the required 90degf.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Craig




Yes. I could run an experiment like that. Although, I will need to tweak your experiment some to accommodate my situation lol I don't have a 150 watt bulb . I would also want the temp to go to 100 degrees, since that is the basking temp for my Russian tortoises. They often chose to bask in the 100 degree zone instead of the 90 degree zone. 

I could test a 100 watt incadesent bulb and a 100 watt mercury vapor bulb at 12 inches with regards to how much humidity is taken at ground zero (beneath bulb) at 100 degrees. I use both bulbs and would like to show how fast humidity is taken from the ambient air. When I did my thermal imaging I also took into account humidity from start of the day to the end of the day. I started at 65% humidity at the beginning of the morning right before I turned my lamps on [1x mvb, 1x regular at 100watt, and tube uvb] and at the end of the day [12 hours] I recorded a ambient humidity level of 22%... that is 43% of the ambient humidity absorbing into the IR-A on average.. I have seen this happen for almost a year now. This has been recorded in my habitat on average a drop of about 35% humidity in less then 4 hours. That is staggering. All that moisture is taken from the tortoise if ambient humidity is super low too.. I hydrate my habitat every single day , multiple times a day too, to try and counteract this battle of hydrate/dehydrate.. the Keratin is not benefiting by constantly going through the cycle of absorbing water then having that water taken almost immediately as it is forced to sit under lamps that create this unnatural effect. 

When I get time I will run this test.


----------



## glitch4200

WithLisa said:


> I don't think that the EVCO changes anything about the way they heat up. I guess it slows down the whole process a little bit, but it's just a thin layer and can't change the thermal conductivity and capacity of the shell and skin.
> 
> But your pictures show very well how bad the heat bulb works. Even after quite long basking there is still a 20° difference between top and bottom of the shell. Maybe it would help to put a flat stone under the bulb, to get some heat from below?




I think these applications are preventing moisture from being taken because they even out the way the lamps hit the body of my tortoise, thus lessening localizing hot spots , creating more even heating.

I also think that because I feel after reading evco research with human hair this shows very well that when applied it prevents water from being taken as a result of high heat from straighter and curling irons. 

Applying this idea to keratin which is very similar in material, if it prevents water from being taken and it lessens the cycling of hydrating/dehydrating the keratin, could it not help better mimic the heating style seen in the sun? 

One of the thing i am noticing is that constant hydration and dehydration of the keratin can be a factor in pyramiding after reading all the information I could find in this forum. 

As keratin expands and contracts it proliferates.. to try and stop unnatural water loss that is occurring while under "unfiltered" IR-A lamps.. this is just my idea.. I ponder and wonder if this is a cause in indoor kept tortoises and many health related issues. 

Could an EVCO oil application allow better heat transfer? 

Could it allow for less localized hot spots by spreading the "beam" style lights better around the carapace? Since evco conducts heat very well. 

Could it help prevent pyramiding and cronic dehydration by preventing the constant stress of expansion and contraction in the shells keratin structure, as we constantly hydrate the environment to counteract these lamps that undoubtably and constantly dehydrat the tortoise ?

It's a vicious cycle many people outside this forum don't seen to understand. But it seriously makes me wonder ..


----------



## WithLisa

glitch4200 said:


> Could it allow for less localized hot spots by spreading the "beam" style lights better around the carapace? Since evco conducts heat very well.


As far as I know, any oil conducts heat very bad. Your pictures also show hot spots, the heat doesn't spread.

But of course EVCO prevents the loss of moisture, since lipids are hydrophobic. The moisture just can't pass through the layer of oil.


----------



## glitch4200

WithLisa said:


> As far as I know, any oil conducts heat very bad. Your pictures also show hot spots, the heat doesn't spread.
> 
> But of course EVCO prevents the loss of moisture, since lipids are hydrophobic. The moisture just can't pass through the layer of oil.


 We wouldn't know a definite difference unless we saw a comparison to a tortoise subjected to basically the same thing .. I bet though it would be more spread then the tortoise without the oil but that is my opinion .


----------



## Anyfoot

glitch4200 said:


> Yes. I could run an experiment like that. Although, I will need to tweak your experiment some to accommodate my situation lol I don't have a 150 watt bulb . I would also want the temp to go to 100 degrees, since that is the basking temp for my Russian tortoises. They often chose to bask in the 100 degree zone instead of the 90 degree zone.
> 
> I could test a 100 watt incadesent bulb and a 100 watt mercury vapor bulb at 12 inches with regards to how much humidity is taken at ground zero (beneath bulb) at 100 degrees. I use both bulbs and would like to show how fast humidity is taken from the ambient air. When I did my thermal imaging I also took into account humidity from start of the day to the end of the day. I started at 65% humidity at the beginning of the morning right before I turned my lamps on [1x mvb, 1x regular at 100watt, and tube uvb] and at the end of the day [12 hours] I recorded a ambient humidity level of 22%... that is 43% of the ambient humidity absorbing into the IR-A on average.. I have seen this happen for almost a year now. This has been recorded in my habitat on average a drop of about 35% humidity in less then 4 hours. That is staggering. All that moisture is taken from the tortoise if ambient humidity is super low too.. I hydrate my habitat every single day , multiple times a day too, to try and counteract this battle of hydrate/dehydrate.. the Keratin is not benefiting by constantly going through the cycle of absorbing water then having that water taken almost immediately as it is forced to sit under lamps that create this unnatural effect.
> 
> When I get time I will run this test.


----------



## HLogic

glitch4200 said:


> that is 43% of the ambient humidity absorbing into the IR-A on average..



Homework assignment: What happens to the RELATIVE humidity (which is what is being measured) in a sealed system (one in which water is neither entering or exiting) when the temperature of the sealed system is raised?


----------



## Anyfoot

glitch4200 said:


> Yes. I could run an experiment like that. Although, I will need to tweak your experiment some to accommodate my situation lol I don't have a 150 watt bulb . I would also want the temp to go to 100 degrees, since that is the basking temp for my Russian tortoises. They often chose to bask in the 100 degree zone instead of the 90 degree zone.
> 
> I could test a 100 watt incadesent bulb and a 100 watt mercury vapor bulb at 12 inches with regards to how much humidity is taken at ground zero (beneath bulb) at 100 degrees. I use both bulbs and would like to show how fast humidity is taken from the ambient air. When I did my thermal imaging I also took into account humidity from start of the day to the end of the day. I started at 65% humidity at the beginning of the morning right before I turned my lamps on [1x mvb, 1x regular at 100watt, and tube uvb] and at the end of the day [12 hours] I recorded a ambient humidity level of 22%... that is 43% of the ambient humidity absorbing into the IR-A on average.. I have seen this happen for almost a year now. This has been recorded in my habitat on average a drop of about 35% humidity in less then 4 hours. That is staggering. All that moisture is taken from the tortoise if ambient humidity is super low too.. I hydrate my habitat every single day , multiple times a day too, to try and counteract this battle of hydrate/dehydrate.. the Keratin is not benefiting by constantly going through the cycle of absorbing water then having that water taken almost immediately as it is forced to sit under lamps that create this unnatural effect.
> 
> When I get time I will run this test.


Hi there. 

When ever you test anything in life you have to think of the 2 extremes. In this case the 2 extremes are 
The sun, 1000's of miles away at 1000's of watts 
and a 1 watt bulb strapped to the tortoise back. (laugh you may)lol
Both give the same heat but the bulb strapped to the tortoise back would give a local heat spot that is dry due to no atmosphere between tort and bulb. So we have to find a happy medium. I reckon the further away you can have a bulb/heat source and keep the required temp the better. 
So for example you could have a 100watt bulb at 12" above a tort giving a hot spot on its shell and also dry it out because of the intense heat spot. Your thermal heat gauge proved this happens.
Or you could heat a whole room up from lets say 7ft high with as many bulbs as it takes to get the required heat at tort level. I think this would give us a much natural ambient temperature and not as an aggressive heat that causes the tort to dry. Also you are absorbing more of the atmosphere between heat source and bulb. 
Hope you are understanding me. I am not very good at explaining what goes off in my head. lol
Its just my theory.
If it was proved correct, Then the next stage would be how to achieve this at the least expense. 


Thank you

Craig


----------



## glitch4200

Anyfoot said:


> Hi there.
> 
> When ever you test anything in life you have to think of the 2 extremes. In this case the 2 extremes are
> The sun, 1000's of miles away at 1000's of watts
> and a 1 watt bulb strapped to the tortoise back. (laugh you may)lol
> Both give the same heat but the bulb strapped to the tortoise back would give a local heat spot that is dry due to no atmosphere between tort and bulb. So we have to find a happy medium. I reckon the further away you can have a bulb/heat source and keep the required temp the better.
> So for example you could have a 100watt bulb at 12" above a tort giving a hot spot on its shell and also dry it out because of the intense heat spot. Your thermal heat gauge proved this happens.
> Or you could heat a whole room up from lets say 7ft high with as many bulbs as it takes to get the required heat at tort level. I think this would give us a much natural ambient temperature and not as an aggressive heat that causes the tort to dry. Also you are absorbing more of the atmosphere between heat source and bulb.
> Hope you are understanding me. I am not very good at explaining what goes off in my head. lol
> Its just my theory.
> If it was proved correct, Then the next stage would be how to achieve this at the least expense.
> 
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Craig



That is excellent idea. I was thinking of buying a like 6 to 8 of low wattage sockets for some low wattage bulbs, combine the sockets into rows using a piece of nice wood, wire them up to an audio control unit [multi-port power box] that has a plug to the wall for power. Then use thermal house siding that has 99.7 uv and ir reflectivity to line the outside of the sockets creating depth[not touching of course] to create a deep dome effect to better direct heat. 

Like you said instead of having one powerful 100 watt bulb as a basking light that creates localized hot spots, why not try many small incandescent bulbs rigged together to create a huge basking zone over a more spaced out area... hmmmm.....then we can change distance and add or subtract sockets if needed for achieving the heated zone that I want without creating such localized heating... 

hmm ponder ponder ponder.. then I'll need to rent that thermal imaging camera again and run the tests using my invention and comparing it to the heating of a single 100 watt incandescent bulb.. interesting... 

I'll see what I can rig togher. I already have an idea. Basic wood box with slits for ventilation to accommodate up to 8 small wattage sockets, 8 small wattage bulbs, line the box with thermal paneling to help create dome effect, all wired up to my power box that can be plugged in which will have a fuse to prevent shorting it all out. 

This box can be adjusted easily by proving a sliding mechanism since I'll attach it to a sturdy wood frame so we can achieve the depth for the experiment.

I'll get to work.


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## glitch4200

HLogic said:


> Homework assignment: What happens to the RELATIVE humidity (which is what is being measured) in a sealed system (one in which water is neither entering or exiting) when the temperature of the sealed system is raised?



Wouldn't you increase pressure in a sealed unit for humidity that is being heated with no where to go? (One in which water is neither entering or exiting) pressure would increase would it not?


----------



## Anyfoot

glitch4200 said:


> That is excellent idea. I was thinking of buying a like 6 to 8 of low wattage sockets for some low wattage bulbs, combine the sockets into rows using a piece of nice wood, wire them up to an audio control unit [multi-port power box] that has a plug to the wall for power. Then use thermal house siding that has 99.7 uv and ir reflectivity to line the outside of the sockets creating depth[not touching of course] to create a deep dome effect to better direct heat.
> 
> Like you said instead of having one powerful 100 watt bulb as a basking light that creates localized hot spots, why not try many small incandescent bulbs rigged together to create a huge basking zone over a more spaced out area... hmmmm.....then we can change distance and add or subtract sockets if needed for achieving the heated zone that I want without creating such localized heating...
> 
> hmm ponder ponder ponder.. then I'll need to rent that thermal imaging camera again and run the tests using my invention and comparing it to the heating of a single 100 watt incandescent bulb.. interesting...
> 
> I'll see what I can rig togher. I already have an idea. Basic wood box with slits for ventilation to accommodate up to 8 small wattage sockets, 8 small wattage bulbs, line the box with thermal paneling to help create dome effect, all wired up to my power box that can be plugged in which will have a fuse to prevent shorting it all out.
> 
> This box can be adjusted easily by proving a sliding mechanism since I'll attach it to a sturdy wood frame so we can achieve the depth for the experiment.
> 
> I'll get to work.


When I 1st built a tortoise table I had a covered part that was 2x4ft, In this part of the enclosure I had a large tray that had soil and water in it creating a marsh for my redfoots to bathe in. At 1st to get the humidity and temperature up I used a 100watt spot bulb, problem was where the bulbs beam of light hit the marsh it got it that hot the marsh steamed and I could only just touch the marsh because of the heat spot. So to get around this a replaced the 100watt bulb with two 50watt bulbs at about 30" apart . I maintaned the same heat, humidity reading actually got higher and there was no hot spot on the marsh. An ambient temperature was achieved with no hot spots, instead of an ambient temperature with a hot spot. Hot spots reduce humidity in the area of the heated spot. i.e the top of the torts carapace. mmm. My brain is in overdrive now. So does the hot spot dry the carapace and contribute to pyramiding. Maybe. There are other things to take into account aswell. But 1st thing is to do your experiment. 
I like your commitment. 
I have found a major problem with your coconut cream method. It would take me a month to cream all the torts I'm going to end up with. lol


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## HLogic

glitch4200 said:


> Wouldn't you increase pressure in a sealed unit for humidity that is being heated with no where to go? (One in which water is neither entering or exiting) pressure would increase would it not?



Yes, unless it was a flexible container (think balloon).

BTW, use a dimmer designed for high-voltage and the amperage/wattage expected. Audio controls are usually not designed to sink that much power.


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## glitch4200

Anyfoot said:


> I maintaned the same heat, humidity reading actually got higher and there was no hot spot on the marsh. An ambient temperature was achieved with no hot spots, instead of an ambient temperature with a hot spot. Hot spots reduce humidity in the area of the heated spot. i.e the top of the torts carapace. mmm. My brain is in overdrive now. So does the hot spot dry the carapace and contribute to pyramiding. Maybe. There are other things to take into account aswell. But 1st thing is to do your experiment.
> I like your commitment.




That is exactly what i am coming to for conclusion on the hot spots, i feel this is extremely important variable to pryamiding in indoor kept tortoises... Let us pretend a keeper has a tortoise in a low humidity evniornment for a second. (Which by the way all these facebook tortoise groups recommend low to no humidity for a russian tortoise except for a small humid hide..[hmhm "tortoiseworld" hmhm "tortoisekeepers]) I highly highly disagree and i find thatmextremely dangerous to the beta keratin of a tortoise as well as the underlying bone structure of the tortoise, any probably going as far as effecting thermal regulation as the tortoise fights to evenly heat and reduce the localized hot spots that are occurring. (I often observe my tortoise use his plants and provided shade under the basking lamps to heat certain parts of his body at a time.) Even though my basking temps do not go above 100, he chooses to often sit under them for hours, half shade/half basking. Same with my female A Pebbles.

Let us say the ambient humidity was at 50% before the lights turned on... Now let us say after those lamps are turned on. According to the backround research i presented in on page 6 and 7, if there is already lack of humidity of sometimes sustained at lower than 20% humididity under those lamps and those lamps are also creating dangerously unevenly heated hot spots, day after day, and the keratin proliferating (building up) as a result to try and reduce water loss is very probable in my opinion. I mean along with poor diet(a fiberous bone structure), lack of water (poor organ function/lack in ability to digest micronutrients), poor humidity ( proper humidity allows equalibrium between outside and inside tortoise by use of beta keratin), combined with bulbs that produce horrible uneven and localized hot spots, would it be no wonder the shell and underlying bone structure would deform? All that pressure along the tortoises structure and all those variables combined to me is the clear problem in indoor pyramiding. Plain and Simple. Pic: taken like 8 minutes after she first went under the lamps... Those hots spots on her shell are probably like 90 degrees. 

t



To me this just makes sense... Like a lot of sense.... After everything i have read about pyramiding and hydration and wavelength and habitats.. it all makes sense too me... I see why tortoises are pyramiding and to be honest i see the problem is very simple. But this thread is not for that. This thread is about coconut oil. But after almost 4 months of consistent applications of EVCO. I am a firm believer in what i am doing. After all the observations, temp taking, research, homework, and passion for my tortoises. I firmly believe i will be applying this oil forever to them as long as there indoor kept. 

I'm post an update with pictures shortly.


----------



## Anyfoot

glitch4200 said:


> That is exactly what i am coming to for conclusion on the hot spots, i feel this is extremely important variable to pryamiding in indoor kept tortoises... Let us pretend a keeper has a tortoise in a low humidity evniornment for a second. (Which by the way all these facebook tortoise groups recommend low to no humidity for a russian tortoise except for a small humid hide..[hmhm "tortoiseworld" hmhm "tortoisekeepers]) I highly highly disagree and i find thatmextremely dangerous to the beta keratin of a tortoise as well as the underlying bone structure of the tortoise, any probably going as far as effecting thermal regulation as the tortoise fights to evenly heat and reduce the localized hot spots that are occurring. (I often observe my tortoise use his plants and provided shade under the basking lamps to heat certain parts of his body at a time.) Even though my basking temps do not go above 100, he chooses to often sit under them for hours, half shade/half basking. Same with my female A Pebbles.
> 
> Let us say the ambient humidity was at 50% before the lights turned on... Now let us say after those lamps are turned on. According to the backround research i presented in on page 6 and 7, if there is already lack of humidity of sometimes sustained at lower than 20% humididity under those lamps and those lamps are also creating dangerously unevenly heated hot spots, day after day, and the keratin proliferating (building up) as a result to try and reduce water loss is very probable in my opinion. I mean along with poor diet(a fiberous bone structure), lack of water (poor organ function/lack in ability to digest micronutrients), poor humidity ( proper humidity allows equalibrium between outside and inside tortoise by use of beta keratin), combined with bulbs that produce horrible uneven and localized hot spots, would it be no wonder the shell and underlying bone structure would deform? All that pressure along the tortoises structure and all those variables combined to me is the clear problem in indoor pyramiding. Plain and Simple. Pic: taken like 8 minutes after she first went under the lamps... Those hots spots on her shell are probably like 90 degrees.
> View attachment 118283
> t
> 
> 
> 
> To me this just makes sense... Like a lot of sense.... After everything i have read about pyramiding and hydration and wavelength and habitats.. it all makes sense too me... I see why tortoises are pyramiding and to be honest i see the problem is very simple. But this thread is not for that. This thread is about coconut oil. But after almost 4 months of consistent applications of EVCO. I am a firm believer in what i am doing. After all the observations, temp taking, research, homework, and passion for my tortoises. I firmly believe i will be applying this oil forever to them as long as there indoor kept.
> 
> I'm post an update with pictures shortly.



This/your thread is about your thoughts on coconut oil connected to pyramiding, yes but if your experiments lead to other avenues, these avenues should be explored. 
That is the purpose of experiments, you learn and likely run off at a tangent. So your not off topic.
If its all about heat displacement and how even it needs to be distributed to give even growth, and this was overcome via a different approach to what is considered the norm, then oiling a tort would not be necessary. You shouldn't frown on yourself if you've discovered something accidentally whilst experimenting with another method, and don't be tunnel visioned to your 1st thought. Take on new discovery and run with it. 

If you put pan of baked beans on the stove and wap the heat up full wack, beans burn in the bottom of pan but yet still cold on top, if you apply a slower more moderate heat they all warm more evenly. HEAT SPOT. Man I love Beans on toast for tea. 

Keep going. Have you done any experiments yet.


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## glitch4200

Anyfoot said:


> This/your thread is about your thoughts on coconut oil connected to pyramiding, yes but if your experiments lead to other avenues, these avenues should be explored.
> That is the purpose of experiments, you learn and likely run off at a tangent. So your not off topic.
> If its all about heat displacement and how even it needs to be distributed to give even growth, and this was overcome via a different approach to what is considered the norm, then oiling a tort would not be necessary. You shouldn't frown on yourself if you've discovered something accidentally whilst experimenting with another method, and don't be tunnel visioned to your 1st thought. Take on new discovery and run with it.
> 
> If you put pan of baked beans on the stove and wap the heat up full wack, beans burn in the bottom of pan but yet still cold on top, if you apply a slower more moderate heat they all warm more evenly. HEAT SPOT. Man I love Beans on toast for tea.
> 
> Keep going. Have you done any experiments yet.




Ok . i shall keep this in mind. I have not done them yet. I have been super busy lol But trust me i have some ideas. I found an adapter for a socket that allows it to be split into 4 seperate sockets and each light being 25watt bulb spread out like an X. Max watt is 100. Which is perfect since instead of 1 bulb, i split that 100 watt bulb into 4x 25 watt bulbs spread out in a X pattern, criss crossing the "heat" zones. It would fit perfectly in my Nibbles Habitat. 

I almost have everything needed to do a test of humidity in a vivarium at 12 inches using multiple styles of lamps and lights, I will record humidity at ground zero (basking spot) over a period of time. I have said multiple times that every day i see the effect of these lamps completely dry my habitats, as i have to CONSTANTLY soak it down..


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## glitch4200

***UPDATE***
It is just now shy just 4 days shy of 4 months of consistent applications for Nibbles, my russian tortoise. I have learned a lot over the 4 months of applications and have much more to learn. I am very confident in what i am doing with all of this. I know there is still a lot of doubt, but that is to be expected. It will take a long time before i see long term effects from this, but i am definitely noting short term effects as a result of these applications, i am quite happy with what i am doing. 


This is taken 4 days ago after 3 days of drying out time.. The Nibbles Ninja Lean.


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## glitch4200

Pebbles has really shown me her personality in the last 2 months. We are very close now. Her growth has been extremely explosive. Partially my fault. Partially because i feel she was not taken care for for so long. I had her on a critical care feeding schedule because when i got her she was always hungry and lighter then a feather. So i fed her 2 shell sized portions a day for about a month and a week or so, she went from like 10.8 oz to 14.3 oz!!! 0_o Just 2 months! I stopped feeding her 2x a day and she is on Nibbles 1x a day schedule with smaller portions. You can see how much growth she has had, but its very even, and it seems to be leveling out the back scute that was kinda depressed more then the others.


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## glitch4200

Here is another angle of Pebbles, taken probably a week ago, after 3x-4x EVCO applications about 2 months now during drying out period. You can see how much crazy growth she has undergone. Notice the second to back scute, it seems to be leveling out with the new growth, very interesting.


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## glitch4200

These first 2 pictures are of Pebbles on December 6th, 2014 right after she got home. The next picture was taken yesterday and is what she looks like now.


&


VS today 2.13.15




To me this is insane..


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## glitch4200

Now lets look at my best buddy Nibbles.. He is my slow grower, They are both so intelligent. He has been undergoing my coconut oil torture for just shy of 4 months now. He is very use to my routine now, some days its like hes going to the spa and you couldn't pamper him enough with the oil, other days its like i'm putting acid on him and hes burning alive.. (sorry for the image).. Majority of the time he is very willing to allow me to apply the oil after his bath. I swear one day i had forgot to apply it and he walked over to the coconut oil jar and sat there, which made me remind myself it was EVCO day. He is a weird tortoise. Just like his papa. He was 11.8 oz on 12.10.14 and as of 1.31.15 he was 12.4 oz. I always felt he grew at a nice pace. but during the early winter he actually lost 7 grams but gained it back.

So now lets compare his first photos with his current photos. This is after about 17 months of owning him and 4 months of consistent EVCO applications with drying out periods.

First Day Photos Vs. This week Photo :


VS




Vs


View attachment 118413

VS
View attachment 118414


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## glitch4200

vs


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## Anyfoot

glitch4200 said:


> Now lets look at my best buddy Nibbles.. He is my slow grower, They are both so intelligent. He has been undergoing my coconut oil torture for just shy of 4 months now. He is very use to my routine now, some days its like hes going to the spa and you couldn't pamper him enough with the oil, other days its like i'm putting acid on him and hes burning alive.. (sorry for the image).. Majority of the time he is very willing to allow me to apply the oil after his bath. I swear one day i had forgot to apply it and he walked over to the coconut oil jar and sat there, which made me remind myself it was EVCO day. He is a weird tortoise. Just like his papa. He was 11.8 oz on 12.10.14 and as of 1.31.15 he was 12.4 oz. I always felt he grew at a nice pace. but during the early winter he actually lost 7 grams but gained it back.
> 
> So now lets compare his first photos with his current photos. This is after about 17 months of owning him and 4 months of consistent EVCO applications with drying out periods.
> 
> First Day Photos Vs. This week Photo :
> View attachment 118403
> 
> VS
> View attachment 118406
> 
> View attachment 118409
> 
> Vs
> View attachment 118410
> 
> View attachment 118413
> 
> VS
> View attachment 118414


Can you post a today photo of your tort with the exact same angle of view as whats in the first photo please.


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## glitch4200

Anyfoot said:


> Can you post a today photo of your tort with the exact same angle of view as whats in the first photo please.


 

He just went to bed like 30 minutes ago lol tomorrow I will. You want the very first comparison photo compared exact same angle?


----------



## lyle

please finish this !


----------



## puffy137

Thank you glitch for your enthusiasm for this oil . Mine live outside , but their appearance has been improved by being coconutted occasionally. Olive oil which in the old days was always recommended after hibernation , leaves a sticky film which was nasty & collected dust. A nice buff after coconut oil & all is well. I won't pretend to understand about temps & humidity & stuff.My reason for using it is cosmetic only , but thanks again .


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## Anyfoot

puffy137 said:


> Thank you glitch for your enthusiasm for this oil . Mine live outside , but their appearance has been improved by being coconutted occasionally. Olive oil which in the old days was always recommended after hibernation , leaves a sticky film which was nasty & collected dust. A nice buff after coconut oil & all is well. I won't pretend to understand about temps & humidity & stuff.My reason for using it is cosmetic only , but thanks again .


That word has to be put in the English dictionary "coconutted" . Its an excellent word, don't know why but its making me laugh. Coconutted, yep that would come near cowabunger. Brilliant love it.


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## glitch4200

Anyfoot said:


> Can you post a today photo of your tort with the exact same angle of view as whats in the first photo please.





OLD vS TODAY




Old Vs Today





Here is todays back view.. All these pics are taken during my "dry" period of EVCO applications. After i took these, I soaked both of them and applied EVCO. Nibbles was not having it today.. He is currently unreachable in his burrow. Pebbles enjoyed today.. Polar opposites sometimes.


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## glitch4200

Anyfoot said:


> That word has to be put in the English dictionary "coconutted" . Its an excellent word, don't know why but its making me laugh. Coconutted, yep that would come near cowabunger. Brilliant love it.



I have already used "coconutted" inappropriately in almost every setting/context i could, that would get me into trouble.... lmfao. My fiance got annoyed of it after awhile... and it almost got me slapped a couple times tooo.... Thanks for that.. hahahaha. Definitely going to keep that in my arsenal of words. 

I am so sorry that took so long.. I said next day and almost a month later i got to it haha. I am beginning to notice slight changes in the shell, but nothing to crazy. I would probably say i was over dramatic at times with this oil and its abilities. But either way.. I still feel its helping. I have yet to observe a negative thing from it. I have been supplying "drying" out periods which means one week I will apply it 1x time and see how it goes, but i have an average of 2x a week most weeks. I observe when i let those drying out periods go, i start to see dryness of the keratin again. Like its being robbed of water. (Which it is)...


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## Alaskamike

I've been coconutting my sulcata and my aldabra about once every 10-14 days or so over the winter. Shells only - caprice and plastron. 

They live in outdoor pens with heated hide , so no heat lamps. Florida has mold , Bacteria and high humidity in summer so I'll continue it all year. The anti- fungal and anti- bacterial properties of EVCO are good. I really don't see a down side to use. 

My sully was a rescue raised first 2 yrs dry indoors, stunted growth and some pyramiding which is improving. But this is likely the better diet , exercise and outside environment. Lots of good sunshine. 

I've looked at other shell products sold and the ingredient list looks bad to me. EVCO being a 100% natural product seems a wise choice it you use anything at all.


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## glitch4200

Ok.. so I have been doing some thinking.. 

And I had found some stuff to add to this Evco idea. 

Now let me know what you guys think .. 

beta & alpha keratin are made up of amino acids (proteins). Both in humans (hair, nail, skin) and reptiles. There are a couple sub groups of a and b keratin but remain very closely related. Here is a research article showing the protein structure of keratin. 

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/pr0702619

Now let's connect some dots here.. 

Now the hair of humans are made of beta keratin. The shell of tortoises are made of beta keratin. The skin of tortoises are made of alpha keratin. Our skin and nails are made of alpha keratin. The lineage of keratin is very similar through biology from what I have read. There are some sub groups of the amino acids that make up each style of Keratin but still roughly the same in relation. 

Now according to this research article .. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12715094

Evco was used among sunflower oil and mineral oil to see what oil worked best in chemical treated, heat treated and untreated hair and which oil was the best for recovering or preventing moisture and protein loss of the hair (mainly beta keratin). 

They found that Evco was the only oil to dramatically reduce the protein loss and moisture loss in the beta keratin layers which would of resulted in damaged hair (split ends). This is due to Evco small and light molecular structure and it's ability to penatrate the hair follicle. 

Now let's see here. Since keratin is made of proteins and is hydroscopic ( absorbs/equalizes with water) and this article proves that not only did it prevent massive amounts of proteins from being lost but it inhibits heat from dehydrating the hair (beta keratin) as well. 

Can i not say that Evco prevents the destruction of proteins and inhibits the dehydrating ability of heat? 

If there is a strong corralation between evco and inhibition of moisture and protein loss can I not apply that here to tortoises and there remarkably similar components of beta and alpha keratin?

I mean if the structure of beta keratin is composed of proteins and heat damages and promotes loss of proteins and moisture in beta keratin as show in the article, can I not say that this oil prevents the destruction of proteins in the beta keratin of the shell of a tortoise because of "unfiltered" IR (heat) ?

"unfiltered" IR hits tortoise day in and day out , first robs of much needed moisture, then over time IR destroys and inhibuts precious proteins needed for healthy development and growth of the keratin... 

do I make sense with all this?


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## Blkjkoknhrt

Sooo, Glitch4200, it's been 6 months since the thread started. Any pics of the shell now? I agreed on a couple points in the thread, especially your comment about microclimates and improving daily maintenance. I like the idea of interaction with Munster (Hermann's) and everthing in moderation, right? Shells are sensitive things, and treating any part of any animal without thought is not good. Lemme know how your tortie likes his rubs up to now.


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## Anyfoot

I'm not into cosmetic stuff (mano mano hee hee hee). So can you tell me all the reasons humans get coconuted. I'm assuming its used as a sun block cream and doubles up as a moisturiser.


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## glitch4200

Blkjkoknhrt said:


> Sooo, Glitch4200, it's been 6 months since the thread started. Any pics of the shell now? I agreed on a couple points in the thread, especially your comment about microclimates and improving daily maintenance. I like the idea of interaction with Munster (Hermann's) and everthing in moderation, right? Shells are sensitive things, and treating any part of any animal without thought is not good. Lemme know how your tortie likes his rubs up to now.



Both of my russians get coconut slathers 2x-3x a week right now, as i am still trying to find the perfect application amounts per week while including drying out periods for keratin to get fresh air and moisture. I have kinda thrown out 4x a week. It seems to be a tad to much. As there is really no drying out period for fresh air and new moisture. So they 2x-3x a week seems ideal.. Here are some recent pics as of yesterday of there shells... a couple days ago actually marked my 5th month of consistent extra virgin coconut oil applications on my male Nibbles and almost 4 months for my female Napebbles.
Napebbles: has been having crazy exposive growth lately as she has went from 10.4 oz in December (lighter than father) to a whopping 15.1 oz today.... 4.3 oz gain.. and all she has been fed is weeds and flowers with a mix of store greens. All her growth has been coming in super flush and smooth, there is now space between all the scutes.. its lovely.





now compare to her day 1 photos at my house. Here is a Day 1, home from petco, before i started my care on her




Now here are some updated Nibbles pics taken within couple days of now..


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## glitch4200

Anyfoot said:


> I'm not into cosmetic stuff (mano mano hee hee hee). So can you tell me all the reasons humans get coconuted. I'm assuming its used as a sun block cream and doubles up as a moisturiser.




Actually from what i have read. They do not recommend using coconut oil as a sunscreen, as since the spf is 7.119 according to the journal of cosmetic science it does not provide much protection for long.. but is completely non toxic. I also read a statistic (do not know how accurate) that 65% of all hair care products and moisurizing creams have some for of coconut oil in them. Coconut oil is the new health fad. Cook with coconut oil, rub coconut oil on your skin for mositurizing, put coconut oil in your hair are some of the most common uses for it. A lot of this research is new actually, within the last 5 years to be exact.

Here is a link with all the new peer reviewed, sources cited, legit researach with EVCO. There is a lot more but some of the links i posted above came from this website.
http://coconutoil.com/peer_reviewed/

"coconut oil and skin"
"coconut oil and hair"
"coconut oil and its properites"

A good start to mounting the evidence of coconut oil being legit in different aspects in humans and there skin, hair and nails. If the biology of the keratin being reserached is almost identical to the keratin we as humans have minus maybe some amino acid strengths in the protein bonds of the kertain. How can i not use this to further promote and build on the case of extra virgin coconut oil for tortoises?


----------



## Anyfoot

glitch4200 said:


> Actually from what i have read. They do not recommend using coconut oil as a sunscreen, as since the spf is 7.119 according to the journal of cosmetic science it does not provide much protection for long.. but is completely non toxic. I also read a statistic (do not know how accurate) that 65% of all hair care products and moisurizing creams have some for of coconut oil in them. Coconut oil is the new health fad. Cook with coconut oil, rub coconut oil on your skin for mositurizing, put coconut oil in your hair are some of the most common uses for it. A lot of this research is new actually, within the last 5 years to be exact.
> 
> Here is a link with all the new peer reviewed, sources cited, legit researach with EVCO. There is a lot more but some of the links i posted above came from this website.
> http://coconutoil.com/peer_reviewed/
> 
> "coconut oil and skin"
> "coconut oil and hair"
> "coconut oil and its properites"
> 
> A good start to mounting the evidence of coconut oil being legit in different aspects in humans and there skin, hair and nails. If the biology of the keratin being reserached is almost identical to the keratin we as humans have minus maybe some amino acid strengths in the protein bonds of the kertain. How can i not use this to further promote and build on the case of extra virgin coconut oil for tortoises?


Hi 
I get what you are saying and trying to achieve. But it looks like you are moisturising your tort. Is it just that look that makes him look more attractive to the human eye. I personally wouldn't use any creams for me unless it was medical. My Missus (Dawn) puts some form of moisturiser on her skin every day. Does it do anything?, I'm not so sure. When we go on holiday I use suncream to cut down the UV rays so not to burn, And before we go out at night I use aftersun moisturiser so not to dry up. Eventually I acclimatise and can use a lower factor of suncream. My point is does your tort just look more glamorous because it has the moisturised look like humans do. Preventing IR is your ultimate goal. Do you think being coconuted (got to use that word when possible. lol) prevents IR? Don't you think by spreading the heat in a less severe manner would also prevent IR? Do you think having a very hot spot for basking encourages IR? I don't have the answers, just questions that mull around in my head.


----------



## glitch4200

Anyfoot said:


> Hi
> I get what you are saying and trying to achieve. But it looks like you are moisturising your tort. Is it just that look that makes him look more attractive to the human eye. I personally wouldn't use any creams for me unless it was medical. My Missus (Dawn) puts some form of moisturiser on her skin every day. Does it do anything?, I'm not so sure. When we go on holiday I use suncream to cut down the UV rays so not to burn, And before we go out at night I use aftersun moisturiser so not to dry up. Eventually I acclimatise and can use a lower factor of suncream. My point is does your tort just look more glamorous because it has the moisturised look like humans do. Preventing IR is your ultimate goal. Do you think being coconuted (got to use that word when possible. lol) prevents IR? Don't you think by spreading the heat in a less severe manner would also prevent IR? Do you think having a very hot spot for basking encourages IR? I don't have the answers, just questions that mull around in my head.



In a way I am both moisturizing the tortoise and giving it a barrier against unnatural water absorption from "unfiltered" IR by allowing the oil to act as a way for the IR to be distributed more evenly across the shell thus allowing less localized heating thus lowering the amount water is taken from shell and skin from overheating tissues. By lowering the cycling of moisture loss over and over in the keratin as it continuously equalizs with the surround air and and internal hydration. (All theory though when applied my tortoises). It does more then become appealing to the eye when moisturized.. i feel it actually helps keep the Keratin stay in balance hydration wise and doesn't allow the unfiltered IR to damage the proteins in the keratin itself. Not really trying to prevent IR. I am trying to distribute it evenly creating less localized heating while keeping it hydrated.


----------



## Anyfoot

Not really trying to prevent IR. I am trying to distribute it evenly creating less localized heating while keeping it hydrated.[/QUOTE said:


> So would we not get the same outcome if the ambient temp was a gradient of heat that tapered from a hot spot area to a cool off area. For my juvenile redfoots I have them in a closed environment from 32c down to 27c with no hotspot. There carapace is never dry but not sodden either. Its a constant dull matt colour effect. Also when they come out from under there log in the morning you can see tiny water droplets on there carapace, So this means I've created condensation or dew under the log as they would have in the wild. As the day goes by they dry off but never completely dry. I bathe these regular too, but I'm convinced I don't need to because I THINK  I've imitated there natural moist habitat in the wild and they don't dry out or become dehydrated. They have no hot spot to dry them out harshly. Not saying I'm right and I am learning, but I would have thought in the wild a tort wakes up in the morning with dew a moist from where its hidden for the night on the floor, then as the day passes it dries off gradually. You could argue that the sun acts as the hotspot but its an all around heat not a bulb blaring down on one particular spot of its shell from a short distance.
> 
> I am not dissing what you are doing, just throwing questions into the mix.


----------



## Anyfoot

My last message came up on my screen as if I was answering my own message. huh


----------



## glitch4200

So i finally found evidence that EVCO absorbs wavelengths of infrared! May i present to you 
*"Refractive Index and Fourier Transform Infrared Spectra of Virgin Coconut Oil and Virgin Olive Oil"*
http://thescipub.com/html/10.3844/ajassp.2009.328.331

^-- Click full pdf {right hand side}

This shows proof that coconut oil absorbs wavelengths of IR. Which is beneficial to this whole idea and essential to proving it helps alleviate "unfiltered" IR by the oil actually absorbing some of the wavelengths that damage the keratin and its proteins. ... I have 2 more scientific journal articles outlines the full breakdown of coconut oil and its properties.

 And it continues...


----------



## glitch4200

(Note to Self)
Snell's Law
Refractive Index of Coconut Oil at 50c.


http://www.florin-ag.ch/index.php?c5p=472&c5l=en


----------



## glitch4200

This is taken from link in post #289
Shows the refractive index of EVCO at 25 c. between the ranges of about 680 nanometers to 420 nanometers for the refractive test,
We can compare this to our spectrum graph. 






The FTIR range tested in absorption in Coconut oil was between 600nm-4000nm
Here are the absoption ranges at different bonds..




but if we take a look at the spectrum of a incandescent bulb and a mercury vapor bulb, we can compare some ranges and see what is actually being effected by the oil itself.


----------



## stojanovski92113

I wonder if I should try this due to a very dry tortoise


----------



## glitch4200

stojanovski92113 said:


> I wonder if I should try this due to a very dry tortoise



Up to you. At this point i am trying to build science around my idea to propel it. It is working out quite well, the more i read, the more i like.


----------



## stojanovski92113

glitch4200 said:


> Up to you. At this point i am trying to build science around my idea to propel it. It is working out quite well, the more i read, the more i like.


I just might. Coconut oil is great stuff. I have never put anything on my torts she'll or skin except water. I have a big container of coconut oil.


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## glitch4200

stojanovski92113 said:


> I just might. Coconut oil is great stuff. I have never put anything on my torts she'll or skin except water. I have a big container of coconut oil.



Just make sure it's the right kind. If you have read the thread I'm sure you know which is the only one you can use. Cold pressed , unrefined.


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## stojanovski92113

glitch4200 said:


> Just make sure it's the right kind. If you have read the thread I'm sure you know which is the only one you can use. Cold pressed , unrefined.


For sure thanks


----------



## puffy137

Glitch , you sure you don't own a coconut plantation somewhere ? .......................Just Joking


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## glitch4200

This really made me laugh and it further shows that coconut oil is able to absorb the infrared emitted by incandescent and mercury vapor bulbs in the IR spectrum.... So from being on many facebook tortoise groups, instagram and here i have seen probably the most common lamps used in indoor tortoise keeping is a mercury vapor bulb and a incandescent bulb to generate heat for their tortoises. I want to focus on infrared for a second because this is very important ... Here we have a 75 watt incandescent light bulb... take a look at the relative spectral power of this lamp..... I had to look twice. Where does the peak of this lights power fall under? at 100% power it peaks in the 800nanometer according to this chart on the light box by exo terra.





but wait a second.... this lamp offers very little visible light.... and an extremely unbalanced IR range. I would argue, dangerous actually.. expecially combined with the "unfiltered" aspect of this type of light... 




The 75 watt lamp PEAKS at the infrared level... and then the range falls off the chart.... falls off the chart... but yet those "unfiltered" wavelengths are creating havok on the external keratin and skin of all indoor kept torotises. Now that i can prove that coconut oil absorbs wavelengths past the 2000 nanometer range as according to the graph. Coconut oil has its water absorbed (yes it contains water) at around 3500 nanometers shown on this graph.






That is if i am reading this all right.... and i am understand these concepts correctly... hopefully i am ... can anyone agree or disagree with this?


----------



## glitch4200

"Two alkanes peaks which is attributed the
bending absorption of methylene (CH2) and methyl
(CH3) groups appears at 1465 and 1375 cm−1
respectively. Two peaks observed at 1740 and
1160 cm−1 are due to stretching absorption of aldehyde
(C = O) and esters (C-O) respectively. All these peaks
are stronger in virgin olive oil than in the virgin coconut
oil. However, the stretching absorption of (O-H) at
3450 cm−1 is strong in virgin coconut oil due to the
water content of the coconut oil sample. This stretching
(O-H) absorption is intermolecular hydrogen bonding
virgin coconut oil is slightly higher than virgin olive oil
(i.e. 0.893 and 0.863 g cm−3)"

^---- was taken from link in post #289


----------



## glitch4200

More dot connecting...

Lactic acid is known as a keratolytic. When applied to the skin it breaks down keratin, which we know is protein that forms the shell and part of the skin in tortoises... why is this important? 

I read a scientific journal of the deterioration of virgin coconut oil..

This is what it said.. 

" The deterioration of vegetable oils can occur due to chemical hydrolysis, chemical oxidation, and microbial action [20] and is promoted by enzymes, metals, heat, light, and air [21].

One major cause of degradation of the VCO product that has been identified is microbial action
[26]. The microbial decomposition of VCO was determined after 4 days of incubation at 37 °C by extraction, conversion into tetramethylsilyl derivatives, and analysis by GCMS. At low moisture levels (<0.06 %), VCO was stable to microbial decomposition. However, above 0.06 % moisture, there was an increase in the formation of organic acids, in particular, lactic acid, indicating that microbial action by lactic acid-producing bacteria had occurred (Fig. 4 and Table 6). Therefore, one can conclude that the most important conditions that influence the physicochemical and microbial degradation of VCO are moisture, temperature, and the presence of microorganisms. This makes the VCO made by the fer- mentation method most susceptible to microbially induced degradation. However, these degradation processes can be minimized if the moisture level is maintained below 0.06 %."

Here is a snapshot of the article. 



So we have an oil.. That decomposes slowly into lactic acid at higher temp exposure, higher UV exposure and by higher moisture levels and it is a keratolytic which breaks down keratin... as keepers we have high Uv, temp and moisture exposure in and indoor habitat .. well at least I do.. so we have the 3 things that propelled the microbial action of lactic acid .. 

So maybe this explains my observation of smoothing out scutes? And the very little proliferation of keratin in my russians? Hence 2 to 4 applications a week for almost the last six months straight and constant build up of lactic acid surely has done some affect on the Keratin of my tortoises ? I suspect so. 

Do not forget We also have the affect on the keratin which provides an oil barrier for the keratin that prevents moisture from escaping as the tortoise heats up from artifical lighting ... 

This really connected some dots for me.. woo!


----------



## glitch4200

Let the dots continue.. 

So this is the graph of the action potential of decomposition of virgin coconut oil over a 4 day period at 37 C. 

Here is the graph with corresponding data.




If you note in particular the lactic acid build up with an increase of moisture in the oil when being cultured at 37 C. 

Here is the funny thing.. my tortoise is often around 37 C. In a humid environment (max moisture potential), so I can say that I am probably getting max lactic acid build up on the Keratin, in this particular situation with my tortoises and my applications of coconut oil as often as 4x a week. Which knowing now that is gently eats away keratin, why I have been adding dry periods every couple of weeks... 

Here is my tortoise cultivating lactic acid at almost 37 C within 4 days of applications lol.


----------



## Anyfoot

glitch4200 said:


> This really made me laugh and it further shows that coconut oil is able to absorb the infrared emitted by incandescent and mercury vapor bulbs in the IR spectrum.... So from being on many facebook tortoise groups, instagram and here i have seen probably the most common lamps used in indoor tortoise keeping is a mercury vapor bulb and a incandescent bulb to generate heat for their tortoises. I want to focus on infrared for a second because this is very important ... Here we have a 75 watt incandescent light bulb... take a look at the relative spectral power of this lamp..... I had to look twice. Where does the peak of this lights power fall under? at 100% power it peaks in the 800nanometer according to this chart on the light box by exo terra.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but wait a second.... this lamp offers very little visible light.... and an extremely unbalanced IR range. I would argue, dangerous actually.. expecially combined with the "unfiltered" aspect of this type of light...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 75 watt lamp PEAKS at the infrared level... and then the range falls off the chart.... falls off the chart... but yet those "unfiltered" wavelengths are creating havok on the external keratin and skin of all indoor kept torotises. Now that i can prove that coconut oil absorbs wavelengths past the 2000 nanometer range as according to the graph. Coconut oil has its water absorbed (yes it contains water) at around 3500 nanometers shown on this graph.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is if i am reading this all right.... and i am understand these concepts correctly... hopefully i am ... can anyone agree or disagree with this?



When I get time , I'm going to catch up with what you are doing. Bit busy at the minute. Oh and if I get my daughter off the bloody minecraft game on my computer. lol


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## Jared121599

So is it good or not to put coconut oil on a tortoises she'll.


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## Jared121599

That is suppose to be shell


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## glitch4200

Jared121599 said:


> So is it good or not to put coconut oil on a tortoises she'll.




I would argue all day that coconut oil is the best natural substance to ever be smeared on a tortoise. EVER. 

It's completely organic. 100% natural. 

Made of over 95% medium chain fatty acids. 

Over 50% Lauric acid content that can kill almost as many pathogens as lysol is present in this oil.

Spf of coconut oil is 7.119 (journal of cosmetic science) offering UV protection. 

Coconut oil has an absorption range between 280 nanometers and 4000 nanometers (700 to 4000 is infrared spectrum) 
(680 to 280 nano meters is visible light and UV spectrum) where it has the capability to actually block "unfiltered" wavelengths. (Link above)

Coconut oil is proven to decompose into lactic acid. The rate at which coconut oil decomposes into lactic acid is very powerful when combined with high moisture and high heat specifically (37 c) which my indoor habitats easily provide. I use high heat , higher moisture in my habitats. 

Lactic acid is a keratolytic, which means it gently eats beta keratin build up. So the constant build up from my applications and exposure to heat and moisture have literally been eating the shell of my tortosie. But gently... 

Why is this imporant? Well my theory is that these artifical lamps promote proliferation of the keratin of tortoises by unevenly heating the shell and skin to points of extended heat build up alone the scute lines. The build of up heat along the scute lines promotes 2 things. #1 by overheating the surrounding tissues , blood vessels and keratin you are releasing massive amounts of water from the keratin and surrounding tissues. 
Because of "unfiltered" infrared the constant bombardment of unfiltered light is creating severe hot spots, thus releasing this unnaturally wicked away moisture, normally not taken in outdoor kept tortoises In natural sun light.

#2. Is the idea that the tortoise has a way to try and counteract crap "unfiltered" infrared and artifical lights.. Keratin has the ability to proliferate. That means create more beta keratin. My idea is that pyramiding has much to do with the fact of the tortoises natural response to high powered , crap heat distributed light by making the keratin proliferate. By increasing surface area of the shell (proliferation) , increasing distance between the scute lining and top of keratin (pyramiding) you somewhat counteract lamp made "hot spots" on the shell of the tortoise. 

So naturally the tortoise is using its keratin to help shield the sensitive scute edges from literally having all its water evaporated from these unevenly distributed, highly powerful infrared lamps. 

I know there is a lot of talk about the underlying bone being responsible for pyramiding but with the right diet , you eliminate that idea. And are just left with hydration of the Keratin and surrounding tissues.. as I have read many trials on specifying diet as the prime cause of pyramiding , which held to not be as Tru as originally thought. Cuz as breeders tried all the diets under the sun only hydration turned out to be the main burner behind pyramiding. 

So yes I argue that this oil is the best oil to ever be applied to a tortoise ever.


----------



## WithLisa

glitch4200 said:


> Coconut oil has an absorption range between 280 nanometers and 4000 nanometers (700 to 4000 is infrared spectrum)
> (680 to 280 nano meters is visible light and UV spectrum) where it has the capability to actually block "unfiltered" wavelengths. (Link above)


I don't know anything that doesn't absorb infrared. Or do you think the specific peaks of EVCO (as can be seen in the link) are important?



glitch4200 said:


> #2. Is the idea that the tortoise has a way to try and counteract crap "unfiltered" infrared and artifical lights.. Keratin has the ability to proliferate. That means create more beta keratin.


I have seen some extremely pyramided shells. Most of them had thicker spongy bones, but none of them had a thicker keratin layer than a healthy tortoise.
Scratches and damages on the shell take a very long time to disappear, that's why I think the keratin is growing quite slowly, I would not try to destroy it intentionally.

Maybe it would be a good idea to wrap the shell in plastic, that would also absorb infrared and keep the moisture in.


----------



## glitch4200

WithLisa said:


> I don't know anything that doesn't absorb infrared. Or do you think the specific peaks of EVCO (as can be seen in the link) are important?
> 
> 
> I have seen some extremely pyramided shells. Most of them had thicker spongy bones, but none of them had a thicker keratin layer than a healthy tortoise.
> Scratches and damages on the shell take a very long time to disappear, that's why I think the keratin is growing quite slowly, I would not try to destroy it intentionally.
> 
> Maybe it would be a good idea to wrap the shell in plastic, that would also absorb infrared and keep the moisture in.




I think the peaks are important. 

And how do you know the Keratin was not way more built up then you say? If the bone is spongy and weak would it not be true that mechanical stresses from beta Kerstin under stress from artifical lamps would not play on the deformation of bone? if bone becomes spongy would it also not be true that you have more surface area of bone being pronounced thus you must absolutely have more proliferation of keratin?

You already know plastic is an impractical idea..


----------



## Cowboy_Ken

glitch4200 said:


> It's completely organic. 100% natural.


i need point out that Plutonium is also “completely organic. 100% natural." As is nicotine, arsenic and all manner of poisons. Simply identifying something as natural and organic doesn't in and of itself make it good, it simply means it has not been added to or altered from its original state. (Which I might add, pressed coconut oil is a deliberate concentration of the oil and in no way would it ever be found in that state in the “real" world, the exception maybe at tourist resorts.


----------



## glitch4200

Cowboy_Ken said:


> i need point out that Plutonium is also “completely organic. 100% natural." As is nicotine, arsenic and all manner of poisons. Simply identifying something as natural and organic doesn't in and of itself make it good, it simply means it has not been added to or altered from its original state. (Which I might add, pressed coconut oil is a deliberate concentration of the oil and in no way would it ever be found in that state in the “real" world, the exception maybe at tourist resorts.




Fair enough. I just say natural and organic to make know it does not have added chemicals or impurities in it. But your right on that clarification, my bad. It's not hard to make your own oil from coconuts..


----------



## Cowboy_Ken

In reality, in that humans are of this planet and part of the “organic" systems, all that we do or create is organic as well.


----------



## WithLisa

glitch4200 said:


> And how do you know the Keratin was not way more built up then you say?


The Keratin layer fell off and it was thin. Thinner and more pliable than my fingernails.


glitch4200 said:


> If the bone is spongy and weak would it not be true that mechanical stresses from beta Kerstin under stress from artifical lamps would not play on the deformation of bone? if bone becomes spongy would it also not be true that you have more surface area of bone being pronounced thus you must absolutely have more proliferation of keratin?


I'm quite sure that pyramiding is caused by mechanical stresses from Kerstin, but the Keratin doesn't have to be thick to deform the bone. On the contrary, I think a thin layer dries out sooner and can deform easier. Maybe that's why it only happens on the scute lines, where the new growing Keratin is still soft and thin?


glitch4200 said:


> You already know plastic is an impractical idea..


Not necessarily. I once knew someone who used acrylic lacquer on his tortoise and it seemed to be alright (I guess it could cause growing problems, but the tortoise was already an adult). 
Of course I would never do that! But neither would I use EVCO or lactic acid. In my opinion, all of them are totally unnatural for tortoises that have evolved to live on calcium-rich soil without any oils or acids.


----------



## Landers

Hello everyone, I've just joined.
I'm gonna try this oil too on my little guy. He is outside and inside and I've only just taken him in (his previous owner died) and he is a bit dry.. I reckon his shell would respond well to some TLC.
Thanks for the advice. H x


----------



## Anyfoot

Landers said:


> Hello everyone, I've just joined.
> I'm gonna try this oil too on my little guy. He is outside and inside and I've only just taken him in (his previous owner died) and he is a bit dry.. I reckon his shell would respond well to some TLC.
> Thanks for the advice. H x


Welcome H. This oil is under debate. I should read more of this thread first. Just letting you know. Personally I'm on the fence at the minute with this subject. If your tort is very dry. You should bathe in warm water for 20 minutes or so. This will hydrate your tort.


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## glitch4200

zenoandthetortoise said:


> I can't figure out why you are doing this. Even accepting your research as presented, why not just keep your tortoise hydrated and eliminate uneven heating? This is easily accomplished, for example, by using multiple bulbs of lower wattage. You are instead recommending essentially a chemical peal of keratin scar tissue. Even if your understanding of the physiology is correct (which is not established) the approach seems backwards and introduces an unneeded variable.




The idea is that soaking and humidity and adding multiple bulbs still doesn't take away the 'unfiltered" IR from these lamps. And still having Temps in the upper 90s as basking means they are still exposed to this dehydrating conditions. It compounds... this oil seems to be capable of easing the effects of unfiltered Infrared from lamp to tort.


----------



## glitch4200

zenoandthetortoise said:


> Then why don't torts raised with proper lighting and hydration have damaged shells?


 
Define proper lighting.. define proper hydration.. lots of people are so confused when it comes to lighting set ups and proper hydration.. and each tort species needs different set ups... so it's not like it's one way of doing it... one thing I have realized while being in the tortoise community is that many of keeprs lack either hydration knowledge or proper lighting knowledge. The majority of keepers I see in all these Facebook groups and some of theseforums seem to lack essential parts of a torts thriving nature. 

I can not tell you how many people don't mind humidity in there habitats. I can't tell you how many people think 25c is appropriate basking Temps... I can't tell you how many people think one heat lamp is sufficient for basking and ambient temps.. I would argue majority of torts I see are being housed at the recommendation of pet shops.. and then get advice from groups pretty much showing how the pet shop was dead wrong. 

Pet shops have horrible care outlines.. selling tort owners mostly crap and telling them that it's the way it should be. I argue many people are not getting the hydrating and lighting correct. So since I see this as true... I argue that coconut oil is a decent added benefit to some of these set ups.

No matter what you .. your exposing your tortoise to unfiltered radiation.. unfiltered radiation is unnatural in every sense of the word. No tortoise is ever exposed to unfiltered light at any point in there 85 plus year lives.. wild torts have the sun. Indoor torts have **** artifical lamps. That fact alone means you could NEVER mimic outside.

Unless we find a way to filter the light radiation or... find a way to help counteract the unfiltered radiation.


----------



## glitch4200

zenoandthetortoise said:


> Proper husbandry has been defined ad nauseum; seemingly every fourth post. No where is 25C and unmonitored humidity recommended. Under those conditions, shell damage is the least concern. Railing against Petco advice is fine and warranted but coconut oil is not going to address that. Lastly, Infrared radiation is commonly called heat. It doesn't need to be filtered or blocked, it needs to be species appropriate, well distributed, available on a gradient, and balanced with other light spectra.




What do you mean it doesn't need to be filtered ! The entire spectrum of the sun is filtered ! Everything from infrared to ultraviolet light is filtered. Every single ray passes thru earth atmosphere which is highly wager laden.. it is a vital component to this whole idea! To say filtration has no effect it is obvious you don't understand the idea. 

Artifical lamps do not have an atmosphere to go thru before hitting the tortoise . Artifical lamps are horrible at reproducing the balanced spectum of the sun. It is highly unbalanced and harmful. It cooks the keratin and skin instead of gently heating the keratin and skin like the sun does.


----------



## glitch4200

zenoandthetortoise said:


> Proper husbandry has been defined ad nauseum; seemingly every fourth post. No where is 25C and unmonitored humidity recommended. Under those conditions, shell damage is the least concern. Railing against Petco advice is fine and warranted but coconut oil is not going to address that. Lastly, Infrared radiation is commonly called heat. It doesn't need to be filtered or blocked, it needs to be species appropriate, well distributed, available on a gradient, and balanced with other light spectra.




You would be surprised to know that 25 C. And no humidity is much recommened by people.. I see it all the time on Facebook groups. All the time. Of course people say something like myself. But just today on a group I had someone who was told that the basking temp if a baby Russian was suppose to be 25 C... and then they asked why it always slept. Well they were told wrong. But my point is that it is more prevalent than you think. Maybe not here in the tortoise forum but elsewhree..


----------



## glitch4200

Understand my applications do not replace humidity or soaking or access to clean drinking water. Which is the most widely accepted methods of hydrating a tortoise.


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## glitch4200

zenoandthetortoise said:


> Sir, I am professionally responsible for quantifying the UV out put of welding operations, germicidal lamps and laboratory procedures. I use a spectrometer and Lux meter to configure lighting designs to minimize eye fatigue and optimize resolution. In short, I understand the idea.
> The sunlight reaching the earths surface is roughly about 55% IR, 40% visible, with the remainder being UVB and UVA. If sunlight wasn't filtered through the atmosphere we would all die. However, the result at the surface is possible to replicate, but you'll need more than one light source. Indoor husbandry is challenging and expensive but claiming it is impossible based on Facebook posts, Petco, and Internet searches is a straw man.
> I have a suggestion. I have a two year old Marginated (most similar to a Russian that I have). I'll post pictures of the shell and you can explain why a substance that dissolves keratin should be applied to her shell.



That is awesome then your knowledge is much needed to help me understand this idea better, but please tell how you feel you can replicate the outside if there is a lack of filtration between tort and lamp. By adding multiple lamps, decreasing localized heating by supplying better more spread light , how do we take away the dehydrating ability of the unfiltered aspect of this? Because without water filtering these lamps you can not deny it is not harming the tortoise. 

I also never meant to portray that it is impossible to not get close to the most ideal setting and environment as possible.. but without filtration it is not the same


----------



## WithLisa

glitch4200 said:


> By adding multiple lamps, decreasing localized heating by supplying better more spread light , how do we take away the dehydrating ability of the unfiltered aspect of this?


The spectrum of a heat lamp is not more dehydrating than the sun. This is just a problem of air temperature, humidity and localized heating.



glitch4200 said:


> I'll post pictures of the shell and you can explain why a substance that dissolves keratin should be applied to her shell.


A substance that not only dissolves keratin but also is carcinogenic...


----------



## glitch4200

WithLisa said:


> A substance that not only dissolves keratin but also is carcinogenic...



That is absolutely not true. So your saying that lactic acid is carcinogenic? to who? not humans? Don't believe me?

Here you go...
http://www.lactic-acid.com/in_the_human_body.html

Oh and its in food too.. 
http://www.lactic-acid.com/lactic_acid_in_food.html

it is a natural occuring compound in human bodies... if it was carcinogenic we would all have cancer and die. It builds up as muscle contractions occur and energy is released.


----------



## glitch4200

WithLisa said:


> The spectrum of a heat lamp is not more dehydrating than the sun. This is just a problem of air temperature, humidity and localized heating.



HUH?!.... a infrared heat lamp is WAY more dehydrating then the sun! Maybe not in terms of power of course but mimicking the spectrum of the sun being "unfiltered" in artifical lamps is 100% an issue here. It is 100% unnatural and is NEVER seen in nature. EVER. You expose a tortoise to 12 hours of constant bombardment of "unfiltered" IR and light EVERY SINGLE DAY they are housed inside. Granted they do not always sit under it... but when they do... its unnatural. Localized heating does NOT occur in nature. Localized heating is a man made problem associated with the engineering of the light bulb. When it was made it was not intended to be used on reptiles.. It was converted into a way to keep them.. It is flawed. It is not "filtered" hence unnatural to ALL kept reptile.


----------



## glitch4200

zenoandthetortoise said:


> Why are you talking about infrared heat lamps? I thought we were discussing the IR signature of basking lights. Anyway, don't use them, the color and luminosity are inappropriate.



Basking lamps = Infrared lamps. You of all people should understand this graph..



This is just a "reptile heat bulb" at 75 watts this is a commonly bought lamp used to supply "heat" (infrared)... Take a look at where this "basking lamp" peaks... 800 nanometers it peaks at infrared high infrared levels... That graph should be compared to graph below... you claim that basking lamps are different from infrared lamps... you would be incorrect. This common "basking lamp" as shown here peaks at the infrared wavelengths... So it is a infrared emitting bulb.. it just has a small amount of visible light... This is the IR signature of the basking lights... And the signature clearly shows it emits almost all infrared..


Now... let us go to the next most commonly used bulbs... a mercury vapor bulb. Lets do the same thing. But this bulb has mercury in its ballast.. So we should clearly see a high peak around the 280 nanometer to 320 nanometers also known as the UVB parameters for preD3 conversion.






This is old.. but you can clearly see how badly distributed they are in the mercury vapor bulb and compared to the sun shown by the red line, how evenly it is distributed. I am trying to find an up to date graph.


----------



## glitch4200

zenoandthetortoise said:


> As for your shell concerns, here is a 2 year old shell that has been exclusively raised indoors.
> View attachment 126035
> View attachment 126036
> View attachment 126037
> 
> 
> So how exactly would coconut help?
> 
> I reread some of the thread and appreciate your interest and passion, but why not channel that into educating your Facebook- Petco crowd on the basics? You know, the hydration and temperature bit.
> Routine application of coconut oil is a solution in search of a problem. Good luck with that.



That is a remarkable shell... but my question is..
What is your lighting set up? Bulbs? Wattage? Distance from carapace?
How often do you soak?
Ambient temps?
Basking temps?
Relative humidity?
Open or closed habitat?
What is your diet?
So your saying your tortoise gets almost 0% sun? All grown from lamps?
I am love it.
But i want to know the thermal signature of your tortoise as it basks under your lighting set up to show your how bad or good your tortoise is heating up.. Maybe you got it down. Maybe the right lighting set up will decrease localized heating and hot spots while basking. But it does not take away the "unfiltered" aspect of the light or heat that it is being exposed to constantly.

LMFAO.. have you ever been in those tortoise groups? Trying to tell them anything is like beating your head against the wall. Everyone has their own opinion of their version of doing it "right"... I have learned to keep my mouth shut. I tried putting that effort into educating people but i often just get into heated arguments about your wrong, I am right. Or no blah blah I have done it this way for 20 years.. It is draining ...It is very draining.. So i have decided to keep my mouth shut. This forum is one of the only outlets i truely respect in terms of tortoise keeping and the knowledge base this forum holds. I respect that. Hence, my tiptoeing around here.. and getting more aggressive in a public irrational forum like facebook..


----------



## WithLisa

glitch4200 said:


> That is absolutely not true. So your saying that lactic acid is carcinogenic? to who? not humans? Don't believe me?


Rancid oil not only contains carboxylic acids (for example lactic acid) but also cancerogenic substances. That's why it's dangerous and should not be consumed.



glitch4200 said:


> HUH?!.... a infrared heat lamp is WAY more dehydrating then the sun! Maybe not in terms of power of course but mimicking the spectrum of the sun being "unfiltered" in artifical lamps is 100% an issue here.


The spectrum of the basking lamp is missing a lot of visible light (that's why you can look directly into a basking spot but not into the sun), but the infrared spectrum is quite similar to the sun. What would you like to change with filtration?


----------



## seiff




----------



## glitch4200

Month 7 *UPDATE*
Napebbles gained 5.3 oz in 5 months. 



Nibbles gained .5 oz this month.


----------



## glitch4200

Still both silky smooth growing.. still no issues with the coconut oil. Still seeing full activity and routines. Still munching as usual. Nibbles is 7 months into this. Napebbles is 5 months into these applications.


----------



## bouaboua

zenoandthetortoise said:


> Why are you talking about infrared heat lamps? I thought we were discussing the IR signature of basking lights. Anyway, don't use them, the color and luminosity are inappropriate.
> As for your shell concerns, here is a 2 year old shell that has been exclusively raised indoors.
> View attachment 126035
> View attachment 126036
> View attachment 126037
> 
> 
> So how exactly would coconut help?
> 
> I reread some of the thread and appreciate your interest and passion, but why not channel that into educating your Facebook- Petco crowd on the basics? You know, the hydration and temperature bit.
> Routine application of coconut oil is a solution in search of a problem. Good luck with that.



This is a beauty for sure! ! !


----------



## glitch4200

bouaboua said:


> This is a beauty for sure! ! !



I still want to know exactly how he has his lighting all set up. That he has been able to achieve smooth excellent growth under full indoor captivity . I am interested.


----------



## glitch4200

zenoandthetortoise said:


> The point is that I'm breaking no new ground. I'm compulsive with the details, but there are a multitude of care sheets that lay the groundwork and are successful without the need for shell conditioning. I can show you some IR imaging if you like when I'm back in town.



I would LOVE to see some IR imaging when you get some time.


----------



## glitch4200

zenoandthetortoise said:


> The point is that I'm breaking no new ground. I'm compulsive with the details, but there are a multitude of care sheets that lay the groundwork and are successful without the need for shell conditioning. I can show you some IR imaging if you like when I'm back in town.



I am here to prove this oil has many benefits we as keepers can use that is safe and effective for our torts. 

If this oil is doing all that I am saying it is doing.. That shouldn't be ignored.. At least I won't be ignoring it.. I don't care what anyone else does but the point is if this oil actually lowers the chance of dehydration, localized heating, moisture, moisture protection, UV, protection and absorb important points of infrared maybe this can be an added benefit to indoor keepers everywhere. 

Maybe we wouldn't need to spray as much or soak as much, or even keep the humidity as high as we do (not saying I would stop) but misting my habitat 5x a day too keep ambient humidity up is excessive to me. Look at the reason your misting so often.... Ad offering high heat and high humidity also comes with increasing "unfiltered" IR, which even high humidity doesn't stop the lamp unfiltered rays. It helps but it doesn't get rid of the problem. You need an insane amount of water for it to be filtered. You mist and offer higher humidity specifically because of artifical lamps. That is the only reason. So if we have something that can ease that effect.. We wouldn't need to douse the habitat and tortoise oh so often.. At least this is my view and opinion of course based off of amateur research and obsessive tortoise syndrome. 

Oh and let's not get into the issue of bulbs and moisture.. They pop like crazy when it's humid.. So enclosed habitats which require those bulbs subjected to high humidity just blow ALL the time. I tried it.. I stay with open table top. 

I will soak almost every day regardless because it's still important for them to drink and there skin to absorb that water, but this oils ability could in the long run could create the ability to have more flexibility in there husbandry.


----------



## glitch4200

So I bought a calendar for this coconut thing I have been doing with my tortoises. I have another journal of temps separate from this one. This kinda roughly outlines my soaking, application day, dry periods, food fed, supplements given, and any toppers. I really don't feed fruit much but I did forget some fruit entries like one time each week if that. But kinda shows you what I have been recording.


----------



## l512

This is fascinating. I'm a HUGE believer in coconut oil, there are studies of both coconut oil and kukui oil done by the University of Hawaii to alleviate the burns caused by radiation in cancer patients who are unable to use anything on their exposed skin. My concern would be if it was too much that became absorbed by the shell - approximately how much have you gone through over the past 7 months? Could there be any adverse effects from the tortoise potentially injesting and at what amounts (? - they they actually even injest through their shells, I know they would through their legs, head, etc). It's closest to a perfect food and the collostrum found in mother's milk. Using coconut oil to protect the shell makes sense at a high level and that practice has been practiced in Hawaiian cultures for centuries in several different topical applications. I'm excited to see where this study leads because from a birds-view, the damage from the high heat lamps, drying che, etc., even in a humid environment is incredibly hard on the tortoise shells, with or without soaking and humidity. 

Just my super newbie tortoise opinion which bears no weight whatsoever, but long time skincare and body care extremely experienced opinion in seeing the very real results on clients over the past 17 years.


----------



## glitch4200

l512 said:


> This is fascinating. I'm a HUGE believer in coconut oil, there are studies of both coconut oil and kukui oil done by the University of Hawaii to alleviate the burns caused by radiation in cancer patients who are unable to use anything on their exposed skin. My concern would be if it was too much that became absorbed by the shell - approximately how much have you gone through over the past 7 months? Could there be any adverse effects from the tortoise potentially injesting and at what amounts (? - they they actually even injest through their shells, I know they would through their legs, head, etc). It's closest to a perfect food and the collostrum found in mother's milk. Using coconut oil to protect the shell makes sense at a high level and that practice has been practiced in Hawaiian cultures for centuries in several different topical applications. I'm excited to see where this study leads because from a birds-view, the damage from the high heat lamps, drying che, etc., even in a humid environment is incredibly hard on the tortoise shells, with or without soaking and humidity.
> 
> Just my super newbie tortoise opinion which bears no weight whatsoever, but long time skincare and body care extremely experienced opinion in seeing the very real results on clients over the past 17 years.



I appreciate your opinion. I would have to admit, I have no idea how much I have gone through. I know about a quarter container .. which is alot. I had to buy a new one because other stuff was old and got all weird and it started going bad. So I bought a new one .

My best guess of how much I have applied would be to take the area of my male and female shell and think of a super thick coating applied each time and on average of 10-13x a month of application, and times that by 7x months for my male and 5x months for my female. I use a finger scoop full majority of the time. It takes 2 finger scoops to get the entire top shell minus legs, and bottom shell, I dab his/her head on occasion but not always. 

So I broke it down like this. I work at a tile store so I think in tiles. My male is like a 5x5 tile in area (roughly). So each application was roughly .1736 sq ft for my male. (5x5÷144=.1736 sqft ) x roughly 10-13 coconut oil applications a month = (.1736 sq ft × 12 application = 2.08 sq ft) about 2.08 sq ft of EVCO month now multiple this by 7 months.. (2.08 sqft x 7 months = 14.58 sq ft) and you get 14.58 sq feet of applied coconut oil.. mind you there is error to be mindful of. And many outside variables to effect that number. 

Holy crap.. that is alot of coconut oil.. about 14.5 sq feet of coconut oil has absorbed or been applied into my male nibbles.. 

My female has been about 5 months so she had same application times as my male so just take (2.08 sq ft × 5 months = 10.4 sq ft) and you get 10.4 sq ft of applications.. that seems like a lot. 

My Male Nibbles: 14.58 sq ft (roughly)of applied extra virgin coconut oil.

My female Napebbles: 10.4 sq ft (roughly) of applied extra virgin coconut oil. 

Error: +/- 2.5

So what I am going to do is take my female to get a radiograph done to see her insides and bone development since she has gained almost 5.4 oz in 5 months in my care and I have seen growth lines measuring just under 1 inch and coming in nice and smooth , if I can show that the bone is coming on thick and strong, it only enhances this idea further because that is heft amount of oil absorption.


----------



## glitch4200

I wanted to share my new x-rays that I had done on my female russian tortoise Napebbles today. Now I can show you both tortoises x-rays side by side. 

I want to point out my female has gained 5.3 Oz while in my care in 5 months and has grown a full inch longer in that time frame. She weighs 431 grams and she has growth lines at every scute lining. I consider that explosive growth. 
But despite that explosive growth, the bone density on her is crazy solid all over with no impaction or build up and I don't see any spongy bone development. This radiographs of my female is after 5 months of my applications of evco and husbandry style. But my male x rays is actually September 2014 right before I started my coconut oil journey. So his x-rays are before any coconut oil was applied ever. 

My male weighs 351 grams currently. And has gained small amounts of weight over time.


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## glitch4200

zenoandthetortoise said:


> I've lost track of where we were with this, but here is a basking tort showing uniform temperature, no hot spots (note- the hood is throwing off the gradient reading, the highest ground temp is 102.
> View attachment 128255
> 
> 
> Because a tortoise shell approximates a sphere, volume increases much more rapidly than surface area. So the larger the tort, the more diffuse heat source is needed to warm evenly.
> 
> I still don't get the fascination with the coconut oil


 
Your calibration is off.. your using the wrong color scheme... your way to far away for proper calibration of taking accurate defined shell temps.. 

Get 6 inches away from the shell of the tortoise , calibrate gun, choose red to green/blue color scheme, and take multiple of readings wen they first are exposed to those lamps.. all your showing me is a warm tortoise. Your not close enough to show the variation of temps in the Shell, since it's such a wide shot it's incorporating the entire habitat ... which decreases the ability to define the shell and skin readings .. 

But what you are showing me is that your lamps are creating hot spots on the surrounding environment. You can easily tell by the lighter color spots outside the scope of the tortoise. 

So to me this isn't really showing what I was looking for. It's not clear. 

How do you have your lamps set up? 
What are you using for bulbs and wattage?
What is the distance from the bulbs to the top of the tortoises shell?

Unless your using some new style of bulbs , no matter what you do your still creating hot spots.. 
You showed me a pic like this.. calibrated at a far distance , so that it shows very little difference in the shell. But shows a lot of difference between shell and envirment. 



But in reality you need to be calibrated within 6 inches , not multiple feet. And you will get something like this.. 



And them by changing the color scheme of the gun.. you can really tell the hot spots ..

I found that the color scheme you used is not as Clear as the red yellow blue scheme. 



Even at a distance ..


----------



## glitch4200

zenoandthetortoise said:


> but here is a basking tort showing uniform temperature, no hot spots (note- the hood is throwing off the gradient reading, the highest ground temp is 102.



That simple statement is telling me that the ground is 102 degrees at groundlevel.. well a tortoise is a good couple inches off the ground. Which means that 102.. is now like 106 when the tortoise is sitting under the lamp without any shade. And I would almost bet 100$, that you are undoubtedly getting bad localized heating as a result from poorly disturbed infrared . If you look at your picture above the tortoise there is a whole bunch of light spots showing spike in temp readings .. those are uneven distribution patterns . If it was nice and even there would be very variation..

A side note: are those hay pellets in your enclosure ? The ground has a very crappy distribution pattern that looks severely dehydrated but it could be just me.

As you can see in my habitat the ground which is hydrated is unevenly being heated as it dissapates water moisture . The fact that your entire ground is hot tells me there is no water in it. Or very little. Or else there would be splotches


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## glitch4200

zenoandthetortoise said:


> Come on man, don't make me regret this conversation. In no particular order:
> "Hot spots" in the environment is called having a temperature gradient. It's a good thing and i work hard to maintain it.
> I use 2 Herpstats from Spyderco Robotics to to control heat and light, utilizing T5HO, MVB, and a small incandescent all on separate timers for a dawn to dusk approach. Two CHEs on separate thermostats set up the temp gradient both within the enclosure and through the day and night cycles. I am completely OCD about environmental management and do not for a moment suggest this is all required, but maybe you could not insult my intelligence regarding the basics?
> My apologies for the poor resolution screen shot, I am without my tablet currently and the camera memory card doesn't fit in my iPhone.
> 
> No hay pellets, that's cypress over 4inches of topsoil and coir.
> 
> The area that is hot is approximately 25% of the enclosure. Localized heating is a problem when it's a section of the shell not a zone the tort can warm up in.
> 
> The spikes above the tortoise are from the various fixtures being in the frame.
> 
> Thanks for the primer on IR camera use, but I've been through the certification class and am good to go.
> 
> You seem so excited that coconut oil is the solution that you keep changing what the problem is. It seems like 'unfiltered IR', uneven heating and the requirement to soak and mist have all been candidates. Why so dogmatic?
> Anyway, keep your $100, I'd just buy more hygrometers or something.
> 
> Cheers!



I was not trying to insult your intelligence. I was trying to understand. According to your thermal image your hottest spot in that picture is 136 degrees F. The bar on the left which shows the range says so. Maybe i am just confused. Is the gun calibrated wrong? 

If your certified then i trust that you know how to take a picture. But that is dangerously high, would you not agree? If your OCD and 136 degrees is ok with you. I really would not know what to say. What fixtures? Your showing me a open area?.. How can you claim by that picture that there is no localized heating? I can see severe hot spots all around the tortoise ranging up to 136 degree F. If the environment is unevenly being heated, what makes you think the tortoises shell ans skin are not exposed to the same exact heating pattern? Those colors represent surface temperature, and according to the image provided its really unsafe temps. At what time during the day are there ranges of that extreme ever present in a natural habitat? Again, i am not trying to insult you, i am trying to understand. The basics you are showing me do not add up. I have never taken any course. I just read about it. 

I never said coconut oil is a solution. I have stated that the only solution would be to "filter" Infrared bulbs (all artificial lamps) to mimick the sun "filtration" of IR-A, IR-B, IR-C and the other solution is to have your tortoise enclosed outdoors like in the wild under the natural sun. My fascination with coconut oil is its possibility to be a good addition in combating artificial lamps for strictly indoor kept tortoises. This in combination with daily soaks and properly hydrated habitat with humidity in the 50-60% range could be an excellent combination in furthering the life of some of these tortoises who are constantly exposed to artificial lamps. I can tell you right now constant exposure to these lamps in whatever lighting configuration are still creating unnatural conditions for the beta and alpha keratin that makes up the tortoise. As long as anyone is using artificial lamps and these lamps remain "unfiltered" in the reptile world, there will also be problems associated with them. This would mainly be localized heating and severe dehydration of beta and alpha keratin. Even offering a "zone" does not fully take away this effect. It only serves to lessen the effect. The effect will not go away unless you takes the source away. And that is "unfiltered" infrared radiation. 

I am very passionate about this because i believe to be onto something, so i can be aggressive. I do mean this in the nicest way possible. I just want to understand.


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## glitch4200

*8 Month Update*

Nibbles: 8 month application









Napebble: 6 months application









had x-rays done on her to make sure she did not have any impaction or stones couple weeks ago. Here are her x-rays.


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## Alaskamike

I've used the EVCO for a while now , although since my torts live outside in So Florida , only about once every couple weeks. 

I do not use any lamps at all. So my use is for a bit of a different reason. Due to the high humidity and rainy season here , we have more mold / mildew / and maybe even bacteria thriving. EVCO has been shown to resist these things. 

In researching what is known about EVCO I find numerous recommendation of this product for skin and hair for people - along with good science to back it up. I have long been a bit reluctant to just use any chemical mix sold as skin softener - especially if you read the ingredient lists. So I use it for that also. 

It has been argued on this thread that EVCO is not "natural" , I would guess meaning it is not available to their shells in their wild environment. And this is the only point i would like to address. 

I see this attitude in many threads on husbandry for torts. It is not " natural " or they don't get that in the " wild" as if our job as keepers entails duplicating the natural environment to great detail our particulate tortoise evolved in 

In the most basic sense I see the value and logic of this. However , I find myself I attempt to provide not an equal of a wild environment , rather an improvement on it. 

I have a Sulcata and an Aldabra. In their natural environments they would encounter drought , predation, exposure to parasites , times of extremely limited food sources , and extreme temperature and moisture gradients. 

All of these I improve on. For this reason my charges are most probably healthier and grow faster than they would if they were born in their wild environments. 

If they are injured I would use antibiotics. When the humidity decreases in Florida here I provide more water, and sprinklers. I am careful to provide a great variety of proper foods, most if not all that would not be found in their native environments but have the proper mix of nutrients for them. I provide calcium supplement as well. 

If you think about how we treat ourselves - we have created numerous " unnatural" products that we freely use to improve our health and lives; Albeit we often go too far and do more damage than good. 

We freely use aspirin , antibiotics, vitamins, herbal products , prescription drugs, and imported foods that are not " natural " in the regions we live. But when it comes to the use of a biological product like EVCO the argument is it is not " natural ". 

There may be good, biological reasons NOT to use it on shells - although in all this thread I've not seen an argument that convinces me of this. The jury is still out. 

But I use it now as I described , and see no good reason not to.


----------



## johnsonnboswell

Shiny shells. Slightly overgrown beak. 

The trouble I have with your study is that there is no control group, no way to calibrate an ideal dose, and that with tortoises it takes years, sometimes decades, to see certain results. Some results are quick. Some aren't. I've seen both in my nearly 40 years as a keeper.


----------



## Alaskamike

johnsonnboswell said:


> Shiny shells. Slightly overgrown beak.
> 
> The trouble I have with your study is that there is no control group, no way to calibrate an ideal dose, and that with tortoises it takes years, sometimes decades, to see certain results. Some results are quick. Some aren't. I've seen both in my nearly 40 years as a keeper.



I don't presume to speak for the OP , but following this thread. I think " shiny shells" has never been the goal. It is even growth, and health of tort in and out. Especially keratin growth and bone density. And as he points out , the potential damaging effects of indoor husbandry. 

And your comment about the problem being not a long enough trial or control group ? I'm sorry , but that almost never occurs with hobbiests, and yet advances are still made that eventually are proving great value. 

Just look at the issues of pyramiding and its relationship to dehydration and a humid / water available environment. This went against the too much food - rapid growth crowd and caused heated debate 

That advance is still being argued in the hobby with some saying it's unnatural , we don't know the long term effects , or arguing it is still just a diet issue. 

Sometimes we do experiment given our best experience and knowledge. Sometimes we get it wrong , sometimes in spite of lack of double blind studies we get lucky and get it right 

Tortoises live a long time. I am not one to wait for a 30 year scientific study to confirm a hypothesis before I'm willing to use my best research and judgment in applying a new idea. 

I applaud what Glitch is doing. Far more effort and research than I could have time for. It may or may not eventually be shown to have substantial merit. Only time will tell. 

But I know before the high humidity / plenty of water / soaks method of raising sulcata was overwhelmingly shown ( anted orally BTW - NOT double blind scientific 30 year studies ) I implemented it


----------



## glitch4200

johnsonnboswell said:


> Shiny shells. Slightly overgrown beak.
> 
> The trouble I have with your study is that there is no control group, no way to calibrate an ideal dose, and that with tortoises it takes years, sometimes decades, to see certain results. Some results are quick. Some aren't. I've seen both in my nearly 40 years as a keeper.



Hey home skillet.. I respectfuly must say we have been working on the beak trim on my Nibbles, its a slow process and its not hindering his eating in the least bit. I have stated from the very beginning this does much more then make the shell shiny.. 

I know very much how much it bugs sooo many of you that i do not have a control group in what i am doing... its bugs you all oh so much. And i completely get why... Its not science unless its done the ol fashiioned way using proper research methods and establishing peer reviewed articles in respected scientific journals.. I am sorry.. maybe one day down the line i can do that.. But i have so many other priorities that i do not have the time to partake in such an task. I am going school full time into neuropsychology.. with a baby on the way in 66 days.. I don't have 30 years to do a double blind study with adequate sample groups, let alone a place to house all these lovely tortoises and perform such a task...

Yes there is a simply way to calibrate dose... The dose is simply the surface area of the beta and alpha keratin of the shell. Since each tortoise is different in size each "dose" will be different too. A couple small finger scoops is all you need... and just wipe off the excess if you feel the desire too. It gets absorbed very quickly into the beta and alpha keratin. A thin layer is all you need. I can control how many times i apply the oil though.. Which is most important because it takes 4 days around to decompose into lactic acid, once decomposed into lactic acid though its lost its properties of protection it seems from my readings, it has refractive properties that absorb "unfiltered" IR-A that these artificial lamps emit.. i have shown that.. I can also go into greater detail which i will in another post about the biology of this oil and its effect and beta and alpha keratin, which mike so nicely stated he is unsure of its effects.. I have pieced more pieces of the puzzle together.


----------



## glitch4200

Alaskamike said:


> I've used the EVCO for a while now , although since my torts live outside in So Florida , only about once every couple weeks.
> 
> I do not use any lamps at all. So my use is for a bit of a different reason. Due to the high humidity and rainy season here , we have more mold / mildew / and maybe even bacteria thriving. EVCO has been shown to resist these things.
> 
> In researching what is known about EVCO I find numerous recommendation of this product for skin and hair for people - along with good science to back it up. I have long been a bit reluctant to just use any chemical mix sold as skin softener - especially if you read the ingredient lists. So I use it for that also.
> 
> It has been argued on this thread that EVCO is not "natural" , I would guess meaning it is not available to their shells in their wild environment. And this is the only point i would like to address.
> 
> I see this attitude in many threads on husbandry for torts. It is not " natural " or they don't get that in the " wild" as if our job as keepers entails duplicating the natural environment to great detail our particulate tortoise evolved in
> 
> In the most basic sense I see the value and logic of this. However , I find myself I attempt to provide not an equal of a wild environment , rather an improvement on it.
> 
> I have a Sulcata and an Aldabra. In their natural environments they would encounter drought , predation, exposure to parasites , times of extremely limited food sources , and extreme temperature and moisture gradients.
> 
> All of these I improve on. For this reason my charges are most probably healthier and grow faster than they would if they were born in their wild environments.
> 
> If they are injured I would use antibiotics. When the humidity decreases in Florida here I provide more water, and sprinklers. I am careful to provide a great variety of proper foods, most if not all that would not be found in their native environments but have the proper mix of nutrients for them. I provide calcium supplement as well.
> 
> If you think about how we treat ourselves - we have created numerous " unnatural" products that we freely use to improve our health and lives; Albeit we often go too far and do more damage than good.
> 
> We freely use aspirin , antibiotics, vitamins, herbal products , prescription drugs, and imported foods that are not " natural " in the regions we live. But when it comes to the use of a biological product like EVCO the argument is it is not " natural ".
> 
> There may be good, biological reasons NOT to use it on shells - although in all this thread I've not seen an argument that convinces me of this. The jury is still out.
> 
> But I use it now as I described , and see no good reason not to.




You stated that perfectly... I can not tell you how many people say that it is not "natural" to me about this idea. Its hard to explain it like you did so nice and clear... Just perfect.. People do not realize that -----^

I was interested into the biological component of this whole idea... And here is what i have come up with thru my research.

Keratin is made out of proteins.. You have beta keratin and alpha keratin. Beta means basic. Alpha means acidic.
The proteins are made out of amino acids. These amino acids are bound together by bonds between the molecules. Disulfide and i believe covelant. 

These amino acids are structured in 2 ways. Alpha keratin is combined in helixes bound by disufide bridges. The more disulfide bridges the stronger the alpha keratin. This is good. Problem is.. These bonds are water sensitive gaining and loosing water readily.. Now beta keratin are pleated sheets of bound amino acids.. These bound amino acids are subject to the same issue as alpha keratin i explained before. They are also water sensitive..

These bonds happen to be hydroscopic and are very sensitive to envirornmental influence of humidity and water intake and dehydration. That means any source that emits dehydrating heat will severely impact both alpha and beta keratin. This means every single lamp used in indoor reptile keeping, especially tortoises are literally baking off the water needed for intracellular function of both beta and alpha keratin. I have described the effects of 'unfiltered' IR-A and grounded that idea. (Pg 7) So we know that these lamps are super super awesome dehydrators. Yet.. Many do not realize the effect these lamps are having on our tortoises biologically.. 

Did you know alpha keratin gives rise to beta keratin in tortoises? It is a precursor to making beta keratin pleated sheets. Essentially the alpha keratin is formed using single helixes bond together, then is transformed into dead pleated helixes bound together in sheets (beta keratin). That means alpha keratin is performing functions within those cells that eventually turn into the beta keratin sheets. I read this was referred to as intracellular hydraulics, which is responsible for the nutrient distribution to the cells for living and function.. This hydraulic system is EXTREMELY sensitive to water. If you decrease the hydrogen bonds through out the amino acids of the protein you are decreasing hydraulic function of the cells. 

BUT... the tortoise has a solution to counter this menacing attack on its beta and alpha keratin from artificial lamps. Its called proliferation.. As poor hydration/humidity/ and lack of microclimate takes its toll on the beta and alpha keratin proteins... The dehydration of hydrogen between these bonds makes the alpha and beta keratin kick into protection mode.. The only thing it can do is make more beta keratin to try and stop the dehydration of its intracelluar hydraulic system. That means creating massive beta keratin sheets... which are humidiity sensitive.. this extra proliferation has bad effects on the underlying bone.. The mechanical stress is multiplied for every turned alpha keratin protein into beta keratin protein as to try and counteract poor hydrated enviroments.. If you look at the shape of a scute you will notice its shaped in a way that if dried would resemble a bowl. Think of that for a minute..

A scute that when dries curls up as the amino acids loose all its water bonds. This curling is exerrting mechanical stress on the bone below... Now if you have a poor diet in combination with poor hydration this effect is going to multiplied SEVERELY, the scute will start to want to curl... and will easily deform the growing bone... If you feed a correct diet but offer very poor hydration it may still not be enough to stop the mechanical stress from the extra proliferation of beta keratin sheets... From what i have read ... Many breeders tried so hard to put strict diet standards on there tortoise to no avail and then someone puts the humdiity up on accident and boom smooth tortoise shell. Its clear why.. Combine high humidity with proper diet and you clearly get very nice growing , healthy , tortoises. 

Think why you need such humid, hydrated habitats... Think why its recommended for many torts high heat, high humidity, which have shown excellent results. You are in a battle with artificial lamps 24/7! The moment that lamp turns on the moment alpha and beta keratin proteins are effected and change in there biology as a result.. 

We can even talk about the skin now... The skin is made of alpha keratin.. with some beta keratin as well.. Along with deeper tissues and blood vessles... These tissues also have intracelluar hydraulic properties that are also effected by artificial lmaps... Now think of a tortoise exposed to very dry , little water, little humidiity, synthesis of pre D3 occurs in the skin.. But yet... that is all processed by intracelluar hydraulic movements which is being severely effected by a lack of bonds between the keratins and tissues. So now we have a lamp that is effecting pretty much every single part of a tortoise.. Not one part is not effected by drhydration of the bonds between these proteins.


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## Soefianto

Interesting, do you think it will work on the Aldabra too?


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## Alaskamike

Soefianto said:


> Interesting, do you think it will work on the Aldabra too?


If I were raising my Aldabra in a less than 50% humidity environment with artificial sunlight lamps I would be using it regularly. 
Mine is raised outdoors. 
I still put it on my aldabra at least once every 2 weeks


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## l512

Do you mind detailed your complete setup (substrate, hide details, where you wet down and if anywhere you don't, specific feeding) - I think it would really help. 

I read somewhere that someone recommended Argan oil over Coconut oil (both cold pressed, organic, etc.) - do you have any thoughts on this? They recommended it because they stated Argan oil was a lighter oil. I have heard that it is far superior to the health/protection of human hair that I believe also contains keratins so I thought I'd ask. 

Thank you so much!


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## glitch4200

l512 said:


> Do you mind detailed your complete setup (substrate, hide details, where you wet down and if anywhere you don't, specific feeding) - I think it would really help.
> 
> I read somewhere that someone recommended Argan oil over Coconut oil (both cold pressed, organic, etc.) - do you have any thoughts on this? They recommended it because they stated Argan oil was a lighter oil. I have heard that it is far superior to the health/protection of human hair that I believe also contains keratins so I thought I'd ask.
> 
> Thank you so much!



Your inquiry on Argan Oil made me happy. Here is some chemistry is was able to dig. And man does it look promising..

Argan oil contains 200% more tocopherols (Vitamin E) than olive oil, acting as an important antioxidant and free-radical scavenger. It protects the fibroblast of the skin (the cells that make collagen, elastin, and the glycoproteins of the extracellular matrix). It also improves your skin’s water-binding ability, increases the natural moisture content of the skin, boosts the effectiveness of your sunscreen, prevents and treats scars, plus heals damaged skin.



Argan oil offers 771 mg of tocopherols per kg of oil. That’s more than DOUBLE the 320 mg/kg found in olive oil! (Source: Eur. J. Lipid Sci. Technol. 2011; 113: 403-408) And while doctors recommend you look for skin care products that include a minimum of 0.5% tocopherols, argan oil typically offers 5-9% tocopherols!



Tocopherols also help the skin to absorb other compounds and studies show it’s well-absorbed by human skin.



It’s also worth mentioning that pure argan oil is reported to contain 300% more tocopherols than skincare products that include argan oil in a series of ingredients due to the poor solubility of tocopherols in solvents. Which means you’re better off spending your money on pure argan oil, as the purity preserves the integrity of the Vitamin E!



Essential Fatty Acids



Argan oil includes high levels of fatty acids, primarily oleic (Omega 9) and linoleic (Omega 6) acids, which are both easily absorbed by the skin. Fatty acids are essential to the health of your cellular membranes – keeping the skin elastic and firm, and improving moisture retention. They are also critical in the formation of prostaglandin, which acts as a natural anti-inflammatory and healing agent.



A Breakdown Of The Fatty Acids In Argan Oil







Oleic Acid 43-49.1%

Linoleic Acid 29.3-36%

Stearic Acid 4.3-7.2%

Palmitic Acid 11.5-15%



Source: Journal of Pharmacy & Pharmacology 2010; 62: 1669-1975



Natural Antioxidants



Argan oil is high in natural antioxidants that, when applied externally, help to protect your skin from environmental factors like chemicals, pollution, and sun damage – preventing free radical damage, assisting in skin repair and rejuvenation, and giving your skin that hard-to-achieve "glow." 



Not only does it include exceptionally high levels of tocopherols, but it also includes traces of copper, which not only acts as an antioxidant, but also supports collagen production for more youthful looking skin.



Squalene



Squalene is a polyunsaturated hydrocarbon liquid that is naturally produced by your skin. It functions very much like Vitamin E, acting as an important antioxidant, protecting against free radical damage while preventing the breakdown of your skin's natural collagen and elastin, which is what keeps your skin looking firm and youthful.



Squalene contains lipoproteins that help to prevent the formation of harmful peroxides that can destroy important vitamins in your skin. Plus, squalene has many wound healing and antibacterial properties that make it an excellent choice for those suffering with eczema and psoriasis.



It's deeply moisturizing and acts as an emollient, helping to prevent water loss from the skin. It is also quickly absorbed without making your skin feel greasy.



Polyphenols



Argan oil contains high levels of polyphenols, which fight sun damage and photoaging with UV protection. They also help promote skin repair with anti-inflammatory, anti-septic, and free-radical fighting properties.



In particular, argan oil contains high levels of Ferulic Acid, which is prized because it actually increases in potency as an antioxidant when exposed to sunlight, making it particularly effective in helping to prevent photoaging. Other phenols in argan oil include vanillic acid, syringic acid, tyrosol, catechol, resorcinol,(-)-epicatechin and (+)-catechin.



Sterols



Sterols help prevent skin aging by promoting moisture retention as well as optimizing the function of the skin barrier. Sterols are important for healthy skin because they mimic the effects of cholesterol on the skin, and cholesterol is an important part of the skin's epidermal layer and contributes to overall skin health.



Sterols have been shown to help prevent wrinkles and increase skin elasticity.



Plus argan oil contains the very rare D-7 stigmasterol, which is highly regarded for treating skin diseases and healing wounds and compromised skin tissue.



Triterpene Alcohols



Argan oil also contains a series of triterpene alcohols, which are noted for their potent anti-inflammatory action. Initially studies reported this action occurring upon ingestion, but more recent studies are now showing that they act as an anti-inflammatory when applied topically as well. This may well be another reason why argan oil is known to be so effective for healing a variety of skin conditions including acne, eczema, and psoriasis.

* few concerns. Argan oil is very expensive. Only one country makes it, which is in Morocco. It is a very hard to make. Very few can make it and industrialize it. Unlike coconut oil which is widely processed and made all over. But with the best coming out of Indonesia. I will be digging deeper and I might even start a seperate thread on it. Also the acids it turns into are unfamiliar to me. So I want to study how those acids affect keratin. But looks very promising. Lots of photoaging antioxidants. Thank you. I'll post my set up in detail soon.


----------



## Alaskamike

l512 said:


> Do you mind detailed your complete setup (substrate, hide details, where you wet down and if anywhere you don't, specific feeding) - I think it would really help.
> 
> I read somewhere that someone recommended Argan oil over Coconut oil (both cold pressed, organic, etc.) - do you have any thoughts on this? They recommended it because they stated Argan oil was a lighter oil. I have heard that it is far superior to the health/protection of human hair that I believe also contains keratins so I thought I'd ask.
> 
> Thank you so much!


Argon oil is becoming all the rage in skin and hair care, as well as edible in foods for health benefits. Comes from Morocco I believe, from the Argon Tree nuts. It would be interesting if someone would do the same type of experiments as Glitch here with Argon. But it takes time and allot of research of properties, as well as consistent application and follow-up even to get anecdotal indications of benefits or drawbacks. 

I assume you are asking Glitch for his set up, so I won't comment on that..


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## Alaskamike

Funny, I posted my comment above just as Glitch was posting his research on Argon oil. 

Jeeeezzz, I'm gittin' old...... maybe need some argon for MY skin hahahaha


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## l512

One more thing I was thinking about when I read your response was the potential breakdown of the oil's heating point. I know olive oil gets toxic at certain heats, coconut oil has different breakdown temps and I'm not sure what, if any toxicity issues exist with argan oil in a cool temp, room temperature temp, or high temps that the tortoises bask at. I guess I would wonder that for any oil? I know that Vitamin E also has toxicity levels so I'm just curious. There's a website you might be interested ewg.org - it's the Environmental Working Group, a watchdog reference site for all things toxic. It started out with ingredients and produts to keep manufacturers honest (they rate toxic levels of things like sunscreen, beauty products broken down by ingredient) but now they do much, much more. It might help in your efforts. I'll try and find out some information also. I know if they make tortoise shell protection/conditioners from chemical-based synthetic ingredients, all-natural must be safer and better. I agree that the lights do damage, are unnatural and they need protection, it's just hard to know what the best "protection" is.


----------



## l512

I lied, couple more questions. In Hawaii there's a nut oil called Kukui Nut oil - I belive they call it Candlenut or Kemiri in other parts of the world and it is the equivalent in Hawaii to the mainland use of Vitamin E as an all-healer/protector. It's light and doesn't leave an oily residue when applied but much more nourishing than coconut oil. It is used for medicinal purposes, healing and cooking. The University of Hawaii has done extensive studies on it's benefits for safely treating radiation burns in cancer patients and dramatically improving eczema and psorisis. The other oil I would be curious about is Macadamia Nut Oil. It's a natural oil that's closest to the skin's sebum and a natural water attractor. Both oils are highly emmoillent, expensive (but so little is used) and again I'm not sure of either toxicity level when heated to over 100 degrees but it would be interesting to compare to Coconut and Argan oils.


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## mikeylazer

This is all extremely interesting and is making me want to buy coconut (or whatever oils I can) for my tortoises to use occasionally. What exact brands do you recommend using as I am sure some are safe and some are not for tortoises?


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## l512

Cold-pressed Kukui nut oil (that I know of) is done on Hawaii's north shore in Haleiwa town by Oils of Aloha. They are a primary suppplier here on the mainland and around the world. It is cold-pressed and pure. My concern with Kukui oil is it contains saponins and I'm not sure if they are toxic to tortoises. I'm also not sure if Coconut, Macadamia, and Argan oil also contain the same. The thing with plant based oils is that some plants naturally have "toxic" ingredients that occur because mother nature wants to protect the plant and ward off plant eating predators. I have no idea what the case is with these oils, and/or if tortoise shells are absorbant like our human skin (largest organ so anything we put on it we're actually injesting), I just would rather bring it up than not consider it. Again, my gut is that all if it is better than the ingredients in some over the counter products. 

Whether it's Kukui, Coconut, Argan or Macadamia nut - you want natural, organic of wild-crafted if possible ("organic" fda approved still allows pesticides, just in the last 3 months of the crop before harvest, "wild-crafted" means absolutely no additives or pesticides throughtout the life), 100%, and most-important is cold-pressed so the plant based oil is in it's natural chemical state.

Amazon has most of these items and all should be highest quality food grade in my opinion


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## Alaskamike

I buy EVCO at a local grocery store in the health food section. We use it on our hair and skin too


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## Momo

glitch4200 said:


> Hi everyone, so after reading a couple threads about conditioners for the shell of our tortoises I might have a good debatable topic here. I decided to do a little research about cold pressed extra virgin coconut oil. After carefully considering my sources. I have concluded the following: this oil is antibacterial, anti fungal, anti viral, anti inflammatory, unique fatty acids that penatrate to the micro level quickly giving efficient moisture , a natural sunscreen spf 10 (which blocks 90 percent uvb), it doesn't allow substrate to stick, it doesn't mess with thermoregulation as far as I can tell after multiple days of temp taking after first application, and lastly it makes one hell of a shine.
> I am sure some of you see a particular issue of this being a natural sunscreen that blocks 90 percent of the thing our tortoises need the most of for proper bone development and overall health. But my question is does my little guy get more benefit from a weekly application of extra virgin coconut oil then not applying it?
> My goal is longevity he is indoor captive and will be for the foreseeable future, mvb bulbs literally suck the moisture right out of our tortoises shells (got that info from a thread here) and being exposed to a mvb constantly day in and day out constantly sucking that moisture out isn't the best. Is there a way as tortoise keepers who can't bring outside at all times to help prevent some of that moisture loss? is it possible to give them some protection from the constant baking lights? I understand the importance of humidity and lighting needed for optimal health but is it also doing them a disservice by not giving them some sort of protection from the baking lights? Allowing their shells to stay moisturized on a table top setting without plucking the moisture from deep within? Of course moderation is absolute. Too much application and you block the good out. I am very curious to all your opinions.
> 
> So I decided to give it a try about a week ago, my Russian is in perfect health after getting a complete checkup with x-rays. So his shell has a small dent (possibly from shipping) but otherwise looks pretty smooth. After I bathed him, I applied a thin coat of extra virgin coconut oil, pretty instantaneously I saw a magnificent shine. I wanted to see how much would initially get absorbed which was quite a bit.. I let it sit for about a minute before I wiped it off with a super extra soft micro fiber cloth. He enjoyed every second of the massage too.. (went to school for massage therapy)even tortoises appreciate a good massage haha. 5 days later and it still has that healthy shine just not as vibrant as when first applied. This is very debatable as I know a lot of you have raised many many clutches of perfectly healthy tortoises without any topical oils, and are set in your opinions so please let's hear it  and if am wrong in any of my information please correct me. Pictures provided



Hi there,
My new girl Trinity has a very dry shell, and I was just thinking the same thing! How is your experiment going? Thanks for the pic of the right coconut oil. That help's alot. She didn't receive proper hydration with her previous owners, so I'm trying to get her shell more moist. Along the lines you can see how dry and dusty she is. Thanks


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## glitch4200

l512 said:


> Do you mind detailed your complete setup (substrate, hide details, where you wet down and if anywhere you don't, specific feeding) - I think it would really help.
> 
> I read somewhere that someone recommended Argan oil over Coconut oil (both cold pressed, organic, etc.) - do you have any thoughts on this? They recommended it because they stated Argan oil was a lighter oil. I have heard that it is far superior to the health/protection of human hair that I believe also contains keratins so I thought I'd ask.
> 
> Thank you so much!



Detailed set up for my male Russian. 
3 lamps used in my habitats. I switch around currently to find best lamps. But I use mostly these. 

1x mercury vapor bulb 100watt. 
1x 75 Watt halogen flood lamp OR
1x 90 Watt halogen bulb (depends on room temp) 
1x UVb t8 10% tube florescent 

I use full coconut fiber for substrate, about 5" deep. And I have a sand base about 1" to give more height. 

Temp range: I aim for ambient temp of 85 F all over the habitat minimum.

Basking temp: 97 F at main basking lamp, 88 F at second lamp. 

Cool, moist *hides*: aim for 75 F. 

My relative humidity is pretty bad. I struggle to keep it at 40 to 50%. Sometime it drops to 20%. 




I soak the entire habitat down when I spray. I usually go through two or 3 quarts of water per spray down. My humidity will jump up too about 75% but by the end of the day it's back below 40%. If I skip a day of spraying my humidity drops to below 20%.. I don't keep humidity at 80%. I can't.. It's not possible on a semi open table top. Equilibrium always wins. 

It looks like this when it's all nice and hydrated.. 


If it stayed nice and warm and was this moist it would be perfect.. 

But give those lamps 2 days... And it's completely dry. Completely. The humidity will fluctuate on average 30% to 40% on days I spray vs the next day of complete dehydration. Thst is very stressful to the biology of alpha and beta keratin. This is my worry. And my coconut oil applications ease that stress.


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## glitch4200

l512 said:


> One more thing I was thinking about when I read your response was the potential breakdown of the oil's heating point. I know olive oil gets toxic at certain heats, coconut oil has different breakdown temps and I'm not sure what, if any toxicity issues exist with argan oil in a cool temp, room temperature temp, or high temps that the tortoises bask at. I guess I would wonder that for any oil? I know that Vitamin E also has toxicity levels so I'm just curious. There's a website you might be interested ewg.org - it's the Environmental Working Group, a watchdog reference site for all things toxic. It started out with ingredients and produts to keep manufacturers honest (they rate toxic levels of things like sunscreen, beauty products broken down by ingredient) but now they do much, much more. It might help in your efforts. I'll try and find out some information also. I know if they make tortoise shell protection/conditioners from chemical-based synthetic ingredients, all-natural must be safer and better. I agree that the lights do damage, are unnatural and they need protection, it's just hard to know what the best "protection" is.




The breakdown temp of coconut oil is very high. It's extremely thermally stable. And it decomposes into organic acids when heated and offered moisture. . Like lactic acid is a prime decomposition of coconut oil when subjected to temps at 37c. And decent humidity..


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## glitch4200

l512 said:


> Cold-pressed Kukui nut oil (that I know of) is done on Hawaii's north shore in Haleiwa town by Oils of Aloha. They are a primary suppplier here on the mainland and around the world. It is cold-pressed and pure. My concern with Kukui oil is it contains saponins and I'm not sure if they are toxic to tortoises. I'm also not sure if Coconut, Macadamia, and Argan oil also contain the same. The thing with plant based oils is that some plants naturally have "toxic" ingredients that occur because mother nature wants to protect the plant and ward off plant eating predators. I have no idea what the case is with these oils, and/or if tortoise shells are absorbant like our human skin (largest organ so anything we put on it we're actually injesting), I just would rather bring it up than not consider it. Again, my gut is that all if it is better than the ingredients in some over the counter products.
> 
> Whether it's Kukui, Coconut, Argan or Macadamia nut - you want natural, organic of wild-crafted if possible ("organic" fda approved still allows pesticides, just in the last 3 months of the crop before harvest, "wild-crafted" means absolutely no additives or pesticides throughtout the life), 100%, and most-important is cold-pressed so the plant based oil is in it's natural chemical state.
> 
> Amazon has most of these items and all should be highest quality food grade in my opinion



I will take a look at this other oils . I have said from the beginning only the purest form of coconut oil will do. Unrefined, cold pressed, organic, extra Virgin coconut oil. 

I want to remain on Coconut oil as it still has the best properties in what I am looking for.


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## glitch4200

*9 Month Update*

Sorry this update is late. Super busy lately. 

I am into my 9th month of coconut oil applications for my male Russian tortoise Nibbles & about 7 months of applications to my female Russian tort. 

Nibbles: 9 months oiled 2x to 4x a week. 

View attachment 135505

View attachment 135506

View attachment 135507


My female Russian after 7 months of applications. 








Nibbles had an eye issue this last month that was fully resolved. So I didn't coconut him for a good week or so this last month . Otherwise no difference in activity, no abnormal sores, no infections, no cooked tortoise platters. 

I am noticing big growth of the alpha keratin in Napebbles, my female Russian. She is still smooth and she'll is still nice and hard on both of them.


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## glitch4200

Pics didn't upload of nibble in update.


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## Alaskamike

It would be hard for anyone to argue with the success of those shells. I've not seen many Russians that look that good, although frequently they are purchased as adults in the pet stores, and raised initially in very dry environments. 

Smooth shells, or lumpy ones are an outward physical sign of the mechanics of the shell growth, and can identify underlying problems with potential MBD , improper nutrition, lack of exercise, or water. All are important markers for overall health. We all know it is not just cosmetic.

My attention in this thread has been more in the biology and chemistry of EVCO and tortoise shells and this information you have readily and I must say. very clearly provided, as well as detailed explanations of the challenges of overhead lighting and heat sources. Some very skilled keepers mitigate for this by using smaller lamps, and properly spreading them out. They use timers, thermostat controlled switches, etc. These skilled keepers are also very careful about the distance lamps are from shells and ambient temps are checked often to assure a proper varied environment. But as you pointed out earlier in this thread, these are all to often the exception - not the "rule". 

It continues to be a struggle to get proper husbandry information to the general tort keeping public. Those who come to a site like the Tortoise Forum are so often surprised at the wealth of 'best care' information and leading edge advice. As well as the contradictions from what they have always believed, learned 10 years ago, or were told when they bought the tortoise. 

The challenges to EVCO one by one seem to be answered - to my satisfaction anyway
- Its not natural (neither is much of the food we feed our torts, keeping them confined, or antibiotic cream when they need it)
- Its breaks down to a harmful substance (It does not, has a high heat tolerance )
- It blocks too much UV (Not if you use on shell, as the beneficial light is absorbed through he skin mainly to aid in calcium metabolism)
- It only makes the shell "pretty" (yes, it does that, but that is a side effect, not the purpose)
- If the tort has the right humidity, and water availability , the EVCO serves no purpose - This last one I want to address

I believe the EVCO can serve another purpose that may show benefit to our torts, even in environments like mine; South Florida - outdoor raising, natural sunlight, high humidity (40-99%) natural foods, and lots of available water. And that has to do with the anti-bacterial, and anti-fungal (mold and mildew) properties of EVCO. 

We may find that the application can help avoid issues like shell rot and fungal growth on caprice and plastron, For that reason I have been applying it about once a week, sometimes a bit longer in between. I have not been 'religious ' about it, but do think it is worth the effort to use it on this basis. 

We would all like to see all tortoises raised in controlled humidity environments with the best care; controlled heat and UV lights - but reality tells us not everyone can, or will do this. even in these high quality environments, mold and fungus can be an issue. For those who are raising your tortoises on open table tops indoors, in aquariums, under heat and full spectrum lamps, I recommend using the EVCO as a routine part of care.

-


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## glitch4200

*10 month update* 

First set of pics is of Nibbles after about 10 months of coconut oil applications to the shell and some times skin of my tortoise up too 4x a week. 









Now Napebbles has been receiving coconut oil applications since the first day I got her which was December 3rd, 2013. So for 7.5 months now, she has recieved up too 4x coconut oil applications a week. 










Both have still maintained their routines, they are soaked almost every single day for as long as they would like to be.. Their habitats are sprayed down at least 1x a day heavily. I keep their temps at 26c or 85 f ambient and 36c or 96f basking zones. Their hides act as their dark cool moist hiding grounds to escape the ambient heat and light. 

My fiance is about to have our baby any day now, so I moved to a new room in my house as my old room is now the baby room. So I had to move their habitats. They are along a wall now.


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## glitch4200

Now back to where I was.. I think I have figured out pyramiding on a biological and biochemical level. And why coconut oil is such a benefit to a Tortoise subjected unfiltered infrared light. 

Before I begin I would like to publicly announce.. That my friend and I have successfully filtered infrared light in a practical way for all tortoise keepers to use to filter your artificial lamps.. We have successfully figured out a cost effective way to filter infrared light so no tortoise is ever subjected to dehydrating 'unfiltered' infrared when housed under Any type of infrared emitting bulb. We are currently in prototyping stage, we have are provisional patent paperwork filled out and ready to be sent in to label our invention, 'patent pending'. From the date of our filing we have 12 months to finalize our prototype before we get a legitimate patent number for our filter and new lighting scheme. 
This filter will be connected to a piece of hardware that will make Internet access control possible through a smartphone application and computer application to effectively control, lights, any type of timers, heat, humidity, airflow, HD video recording, HD audio recording, and many other awesome features... 4x USB ports, 3d graphics card, high end processor, WiFi compatibility, full customized interface. 

My friend is focusing on snakes and lizards and I am focusing on tortoises.. The unit will be able to control 4 lamps each and all their temps and airflow independently of each other.. 

He just had a snake who was under the filter we blueprinted and the snake shed in once piece for the first time ever! This is attributed directly the hydrstion of alpha and beta keratin. Which now I shall explain....


----------



## glitch4200

Biology.. The biology of a tortoises shell.. Is broken down into a couple components.. The top right hand corner of the first picture shows tortoise and croc scute (same biology) . The second pic is a close up of that scute just broken down. Which I will go into detail on.. 





The second picture is broken down into 2 basic proteins which are made up of amino acids. We shall focus on the bigger structure, Alpha and beta keratin (proteins). Alpha Kerstin is the yellow layer in the pic. The blood vessels and supply of nutrients to the alpha keratin (yellow) is the red layer.. This red and yellow layer control many functions of the tortoise... From thermal regulation to cellular metabolic activity and function. 

Alpha Keratin is a precursor to beta Keratin. You can NOT have beta Keratin without alpha Keratin.. It is not possible. So for a strong shell and for proper tortoise function, you need an excellent matrix of alpha keratin to support the diffentiating into beta Keratin.. Everything about Kerstin is water sensitive. 

As I have previously stated in this thread. Alpha Keratin needs water to become pliable to allow for growth of bone. Dehydration of alpha Keratin (loss of hydrogen bonds) leads to decreased amount of alpha keratin. 

This matrix of alpha keratin is bonded by hydrogen, this type of keratin is bound in a helical formation that is held together by hydrogen. Like sooo.. 



You can see hydrogen is bonded through the structure and hydrogen is readily broken by denturing proteins ... This in lies the problem. Denturing proteins creates stress on the system. Heat and acid denurters.. As well as breaking of bonds.. Like disulfide bonds.. 



When a water sensitive protein (alpha keratin), is readily assaulted by 'unfiltered' infrared light up to 12 hours a day week after week. Something magical happens. It destroys and over heats your tortoise becuase of the poor crap distribution pattern of artificial lamps. Like soo.. (taken by me). 



(taken by me) 



(taken by Andy Highfield) 
*from here* 
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/baskinghealth.html

This shows localized hot spots as a result of uneven poorly distribution of artificial lamps from 2 sources. Me and Andy. Those red spots are the spots that the alpha keratin is losing and breaking it's 
Hydrogen bonds... The intense unfiltered infrared is literally attacking and destroying the biology of the tortoises sensitive alpha keratin matrix. Which is responsible for quite a bit... 

So what does a Tortoise do in such circumstances? Well the only thing it can do.. Proliferate.. The counter active mechanism to stopping the breaking of hydrogen bonds in the aloha keratin is by making more beta keratin to protect and cover the sensitive alpha keratin. The most sensitive spots are the hinge regions along all the scute lines. My thermal imaging showed the first to heat up was the hinge regions of all the scutes on the very top of the shell.



The repeated stretch and release of Kerstin deforms the helical structure putting lots of stress on the underling bones of the tortoise... It also creates random coils of collapesed Kerstin matrix when stressed to this degree. Protein folding is crucial to the diffentiating layer (between the yellow layer and top compact green layer *pic2*) this folding allows disulfide bonds to form to connect the helical strands of alpha keratin to the duel folded helical strands of beta keratin. Disulfide bond is not readily broken easily by loss of hydrogen bonds as it's not the main connector. and hydrogen is a stabilizing helper to this. BuT is the backbone molecule to alpha keratin.. And loss to those molecules sends the tortoise into biochemical scramble mode.



Breaking hydrogen bonds in aloha keratin results in massive proliferation of beta keratin in tortoises along the hinge regions along the scute lines.. As this is the most readily hydrogen accessible point on the tortoise and the lamps demand water. The lack of hydration and bonds stresses the beta keratin to form in fast fashion to quickly protect the very important alpha keratin in those sensitive regions . This extra beta keratin is very unnatural. And weak bone will readily deform under the extreme pressure of the bending beta keratin. Beta keratin when dried and non pliable exerts a 'bowl like' stress along the bone right under the scute. This is why you see pyramiding like it is. The bowl shape of the scutes as it dries, curls downward like a bowl. You can see it in picture of pyramiding tortoises. As more beta keratin is made the bowl is more pronounced. The bone reacts to this by building but the bone can't grow fast enough.. So this leads to less density as fast bone growth can not keep up. So now you have weak bone that is under extreme distress. Add poor diet. Poor exsercice. Poor UVb and hydration.. And you can clearly see why the tortoise pyramids... 

Now how does coconut oil fit into all this and why should we absolutely use it for tortoises kept strict indoor raised, like mine?..


----------



## glitch4200

Coconut oil is very special. It has numerous properties that shield, protect and rebuild alpha and beta keratin helixes. I'll explain...

Alpha Kerstin is called alpha becuase it grows in a acidic environment. Beta keratin is called beta becuase it is bonded in an basic environment. 

The decomposition of coconut oil is special. Here is a picture showing the decomposition of coconut oil from a scientific journal. 




When their is high moisture. High heat 37c. As stated in the study. 

Coconut oil quickly decomposes into lactic acid amon other organic acids (smaller qualities). You can see them all listed on the snapshot. This correlates to my habitat, I offer basking temps of 37c. And I high relatively high humidity. So I can use this graph in the way I need. Over a 4 day period lactic acid is created in Ppm (parts per million) . Lactic acid is a denurter to proteins specifically beta keratin. As it's known as a kerotlyic. It eats beta keratin. Gently eats it. So now we begin applying this oil and it begins to change the surface pH of the keratin. As the environment becomes more acidic beta keratin differention (between top green layer and yellow layer) slows down to a halt. And aloha keratin production is severely increased.. I saw this first hand in my tortoise Napebbles as she grew explosively.. Here.. 



You can see massive alpha keratin production. While beta keratin production has slowed dramatically it seems to me through observation. This increase in aloha keratin is the best thing we can do. As the pH drops in the shell proteins the alpha Kerstin explodes into production.. I have a study of a guy who mapped every single keratin gene and it's corresponding pH level for optimum microbial action potential. And the tortoise genes of Kerstin so happen to be listed in his study. so it happend to be right what coconut oil was pH wise... Pretty awesome if you ask me.. 

I have pointed out in previous posts that coconut oil is a very decent refractive # of 1.478, which allows light to bend through the matrix becoming absorbed or reflected. This matrix is extremely thermally stable. Coconut oil has multiple spectral absorption points that literally absorb infrared light in the wavelengths that break hydrogen bonds in aloha keratin along multiple points. Specifically past the 1000 nanometer mark deep into the infrared side of the spectrum. 

A normal basking bulb emits 90 percent of its heat in the infrared spectrum. And as we know the infrared spectrum is water hungry to the highest degree becuase it is not filtered. It is unfiltered. Here are the graphs. Please pay extra close attention to the blue areas at the 1000 nanometer mark and beyond.. 



Those are water hungry
wavelengths. Any light in thaf part of the spectrum is going to absorb water like absolutly crazy.. Now please look at your normal basking bulb and where does it peak?! 


It peaks in the very worst spot to peak in! Your lamps most powerful output is at the wavelengths that's dehydrate and break the most hydrogen bonds in the proteins that make up your tortoises shell and skin. Compare the 2 graphs. The first graph shows a filtered lamp. The water filter is effectively filtering the infrared. (hint hint) which lowers the water hungry wavelengths from needing water. (hint hint). So now we have a super common heat bulb that peaks in the worst possible place ever. Subjecting our tortoises to extremely unfair environments... The least we can do is offer them some relief from these lamps by applying coconut oil. To distribute the heat more effectively. Protect the tortoise from unfiltered infrared. Repair the very sensitive alpha Kerstin, which in turn strengthens the beta keratin through proper diffentiating. 

That's all for me tonight Haha.


----------



## Alaskamike

Outstanding summary ! Thanks.


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## Heardofturtles

glitch4200 said:


> Before I begin I would like to publicly announce.. That my friend and I have successfully filtered infrared light in a practical way for all tortoise keepers to use to filter your artificial lamps.. We have successfully figured out a cost effective way to filter infrared light so no tortoise is ever subjected to dehydrating 'unfiltered' infrared when housed under Any type of infrared emitting bulb. We are currently in prototyping stage, we have are provisional patent paperwork filled out and ready to be sent in to label our invention, 'patent pending'. From the date of our filing we have 12 months to finalize our prototype before we get a legitimate patent number for our filter and new lighting scheme.
> This filter will be connected to a piece of hardware that will make Internet access control possible through a smartphone application and computer application to effectively control, lights, any type of timers, heat, humidity, airflow, HD video recording, HD audio recording, and many other awesome features... 4x USB ports, 3d graphics card, high end processor, WiFi compatibility, full customized interface.
> 
> My friend is focusing on snakes and lizards and I am focusing on tortoises.. The unit will be able to control 4 lamps each and all their temps and airflow independently of each other..
> 
> ....



Finally the answer to the question, 'Why does this thread sound like an infomercial?'


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## glitch4200

Heardofturtles said:


> Finally the answer to the question, 'Why does this thread sound like an infomercial?'



It's called progression.. When I started this thread I had no idea if would come this far or I would learn what I have through my studying. Soo...


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## Alaskamike

Wow. Two really rude comments in a row. Here is a guy trying to understand and maybe discover something new and possibly beneficial for the community of tort keepers and both his motives and his general husbandry practices get slammed. 

I've got no iron in this fire other than following this thread with interest and a willingness to investigate and learn. But to accuse Glitch of creating an infomercial ? As if that was his intent all along ? 

Maybe when you yourself contribute something to the forum you might have something worthwhile to say. Glitch has. 

You can challenge the research , information, the science, biology, results .... But an insult to motives by one who has less than 2 months here on the forum is ridiculous, and rude 

And that comment about feeding strawberry ? Come on. That was answered long ago when it was first brought up. It was a treat. 
That was a low blow and childish. 

Object to science and information with science and information Otherwise what is your point ? 

Debate the topic like grow ups.


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## G-stars

Completely agree with @Alaskamike .
Glitch is just trying to find something new and innovative. You don't have to agree or like it.


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## Cowboy_Ken

Or even read/follow it for that matter


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## glitch4200

zenoandthetortoise said:


> Of course you lose moisture, you're lighting set up is an Easy Bake oven. What is the rational?
> 
> On a separate note, you may wish to discontinue feeding strawberries, both for the health of your tortoise and your own credibility.


 
Wtf do you not get about ALL artifical lamps are easy bake lamps? That is the whole point of my long rants. To show you how damaging those lamps are to your tortoises. I need those lamps to properly light the area up. Those wattages abs style of bulbs are needed to correctly raise my tortoises. 

Oh and the strawberry.. I laugh at you. Obviously you didn't see my pictures with nice healthy smooth tortoises being raised despite "fruit" being fed only 10% of a yearly diet... That would add up to 2x a month, a small piece. Which is not going to harm them in the least bit. 

And do I really care if I am credible to you? Absolutly not. I don't need to prove myself to anyone but myself and my tortoises. As they are the ones who feel the brunt of incorrect husbandry. 

I am a huge advocate of this forum. I am constantly on Facebook groups and other forums, bashing people at the insane outdated information that ia spread around like wildfire. And leading them to places like this with a collective knowledge, that is the best available anywhere. 

With the thousands of threads here, please do yourself a favor and lurk in the background becuase uou have absolutly nothing to offer this thread. So keep your unintelligent thoughts to yourself. No one cares for it. Nor wants you in this thread if you have nothing to add to this interesting idea. Don't dilute the thread with unintelligence and doubt becuase you don't agree. If it's constructive and you can either uphold or destroy my studies and research please take a stab at it. Try being intelligent. Let's see how it goes. Find a flaw in my research. I want you to try and contribute instead of being fly on the wall in the nose bleed section.


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## leigti

I think there is room for disagreement and discussion. I am not good at being politically correct sometimes. I have follow this thread loosely since it started. I have commented previously about my views on keeping a tortoise indoors all the time. I have used the coconut oil on my tortoise about six or seven times over the winter when she was indoors. From what I can tell with my really crappy eyesight is it did seem to decrease the dryness. And I do like the antibacterial and antifungal properties. I am not enough of a scientist to know if all the information on lighting and keratin etc. is correct so I can't really comment. I have commented in the past on my views about having a control group and how to make a real scientific study.
I think the comment about an infomercial was kind of a low blow. I don't think this person had or really has much of an intention to make a product. If it happens it happens but don't insult of them by saying it was the plan all along. I do think that if you don't agree then say so if you want to but you don't have to be overly rude about it. Keep an open mind, research on your own if you want to, or ignore it completel but don't come along just to throw in insults once in a while.nobody is being forced to read this thread or agree with it. I think Alaska Mike pretty much sums it up.


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## leigti

zenoandthetortoise said:


> Once again, that was not my post.


I know it wasn't. I would suggest that this person try a fixture that spreads out the heat and the light more than the ones that they have. Maybe something like this, 11 inches wide


Very easy upgrade to make, using this fixture may change the results of some of the tests they are doing, I suggest they try it.


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## leigti

My comments were meant for everybody in general. So anybody can disagree with me if they want to.


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## Anyfoot

glitch4200 said:


> It's called progression.. When I started this thread I had no idea if would come this far or I would learn what I have through my studying. Soo...


Hi glitch. I lost track of your experiment way back, Did you ever do the experiment whilst spreading the wattage load with more smaller wattage bulbs instead of 1 intense bulb. Like 10x20watt instead of 2x100watt. Then thermal gun the tort.


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## Anyfoot

OK. Back to being serious. Am I missing something or what. Glitch is saying that putting coconut oil on stops the intense hot spot from a bulb, this in turn stops uneven growth of the carapace. i.e pyramiding. Am I right up to now? Some keepers require a basking spot, right. So if a tort for example requires 100f basking spot we provide a hot area with a spot bulb. This gives the effect of the sun but creates a hot spot on the carapace. So we need an even temperature around the tort of 100f. I think this can not be achieved with a bulb for heat and light. The light source needs to be uvb but no heat and the heat source needs to be as far away from the tort as possible to create an ambiant at 100f and no light. And not a hot spot. Alternatively lots of smaller watt heat sources closer but spaced out. My CHE gives an ambient of 90f with no hot spot at one end for my reds, and my uvb provides the light. Time will tell if it works. Although I'm sure there are many other things to take into account for smooth growth. Humidity,diet,exercise,natural sun. Etc. @glitch2000. I take my hat off to you for your commitment, and I hope you prove something good for torts out of this. If just 1 little thing comes out if this it will have been worth it. .


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## Anyfoot

@glitch4200. Would it be possible to use your thermal heat gun on a CHE in place of a bulb. Just swap bulb for same watt CHE and see what the difference is. Dont alter the height that the bulb was at. Cheers.


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## seiff

Someone cleaned up the thread...


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## G-stars

seiff said:


> Someone cleaned up the thread...



Yup. Censorship at it's finest. I don't understand why though. As far as I can tell no forum rules were broken. And if there was any broken I would like to know which ones. The moderator out there who did this want to explain this???


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## glitch4200

zenoandthetortoise said:


> You're right of course, I should have focused on his lights, no pun intended.
> As for rude, I clearly underestimated the sensitivity. My apologies.



Ok focus on my lights. Tell me how after all that i have ranted about, how my lights are a problem. Outside the fact of what i have described in this thread about unfiltered infrared. The bulb is the problem.. The way the lamp is desinged is the problem ... If you are so knowledgeable as to the correct lighting scheme for all tortosies keepers to eliminate the problem i have described. PLEASE TELL ME. Because their is an epidemic of horrible outdated information being fed to the masses all over the world in tortoise groups and forums.. and the great thing is you can tell very easily, who listens to which school of information. 

I am on so many groups and forums. and i see so many pyramided tortoises due to the one lamp , cool side warm side bs that is spread by certain people in the community... and these keepers are listening to them and wonder why their tortoises looks so dehydrated and dry. I am not talking on this forum. I am talking about many other groups outside this forum. I am constantly arguing with people about light distribution and making sure they use multple lamps to heat a tortoise instead of one lamp. The one lamp heat and one lamp uvb habitat is the main way people raise tortoises indoors. I see it CONSTANTLY. 

Light distribution is critical... I understand that to the fullest degree. If you are going to sit her and critique me then do it. This is not a solved issue. As i see it all the time when people post their pictures of their tortoises and their habitats.... I can not tell you how many people have ONE single heat lamp and ONE uvb lamp in their tortoises habitat...and their habitats are sometimes bigger then my habitat which mine is not that big and it takes at least 2 heat lamps to bring my temps to atleast 85 f ambient and 95 basking. And they think that is perfectly fine.. But if you took a thermal imaging gun you would see exactly the same style of heating to the keratin as i am seeing when i do it... So what can be done... Hmmm.. sure raise the wattage up on your lamp bulb and raise the distance between the tortoise and the lamp to minimize the localized heating that is occuring from the bulb itself and its poor distribution of infrared. I would like to point out that CHE are the worst type of heating. IR-B and IR-C are horrible tissue heaters, as they do not have the penetration power like IR-A. Water filtered infrared A, is what we as keepers need to focus on to efficiently heat our tortoises. The alternative to this is heat the air and allow the tortoise to be heated by the surrounding air without any localized heating at all. Which requires very special precision. Something the average keeper is not doing... The pet shop tells them to buy a crap heat bulb and one uvb lamp and they are good to go. Thats it. 

The heating patterns of these lamps no matter how you cut it are not made for tortoises. They are a source of detrimental qualities that the average keeper has no damn idea is effecting their tortoise on a biological level. And combine it with the outdated information of low humid environments and the push for not needing humidity or to worry about humidiity under artificial lamps is a huge problem from what i am seeing. 

I want to be challenged.. And i have been challenged by this curiosity into tortoise habitats and lighting schemes. I want the best for my tortoises and if i can help other tortoises as well. I am going to do so. I know not everyone is going to agree with me. Hell you might even think that what i am doing is stupid. That is ok. I know deep down that i am onto something that can possible help tortoises all over. Either from the coconut oil idea or the more recent invention my friend and i have come up with to actually filter heat lamps. Its ok please laugh now at my amateur research. AND i do very much consider this research. As i have done so many research papers in college, which i do very well on as i have a scholarship for school in research psychology, I can tell you this idea, i have done more "research" on this idea then i have combining all my "research" papers in school. So please make no mistake about it. I will be persuing this at a more scholarly level. As i know a forum is not a place to be all "scientific" and proper. When i started this i had no idea i would get so involved into this.. I had no idea it would lead me to inventing something very cool, or allowing me to become passionate about such things as tortoise care and preservation. It was all discovered. Here. From started a stupid thread on coconut oil. So please don't think for a minute that I am going to allow any negativity or criticism or disbelief in my idea to slow me down from achieving what it is i want to in this part of my life.


----------



## glitch4200

Anyfoot said:


> OK. Back to being serious. Am I missing something or what. Glitch is saying that putting coconut oil on stops the intense hot spot from a bulb, this in turn stops uneven growth of the carapace. i.e pyramiding. Am I right up to now? Some keepers require a basking spot, right. So if a tort for example requires 100f basking spot we provide a hot area with a spot bulb. This gives the effect of the sun but creates a hot spot on the carapace. So we need an even temperature around the tort of 100f. I think this can not be achieved with a bulb for heat and light. The light source needs to be uvb but no heat and the heat source needs to be as far away from the tort as possible to create an ambiant at 100f and no light. And not a hot spot. Alternatively lots of smaller watt heat sources closer but spaced out. My CHE gives an ambient of 90f with no hot spot at one end for my reds, and my uvb provides the light. Time will tell if it works. Although I'm sure there are many other things to take into account for smooth growth. Humidity,diet,exercise,natural sun. Etc. @glitch2000. I take my hat off to you for your commitment, and I hope you prove something good for torts out of this. If just 1 little thing comes out if this it will have been worth it. .



No it does not "stop" hot spots... my theory and idea is that it allows it to be spread out more evenly instead of localized.. coconut oil acts as a matrix between the harmful rays and the tortoise. It has refraction properties. I would bet 100$ you would see the worst hot spots from a CHE, as a CHE is emitting HIGH levels of IR-B and IR-C. and very little IR-A. This is not good. I will do some imaging of it and show you.. And ill show how bad localized heating is from a Ceramic emitter. If a tortoise is basking under a ceramic emitter my theory is that it is creating the worst of the localized heating because the way IR-B,C penetrates is very very poor. and super heating the top layers of the keratin is the probelm because you are breaking the bonds that hold the structure of the shell together at a biological level.


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## glitch4200

Anyfoot said:


> Hi glitch. I lost track of your experiment way back, Did you ever do the experiment whilst spreading the wattage load with more smaller wattage bulbs instead of 1 intense bulb. Like 10x20watt instead of 2x100watt. Then thermal gun the tort.




i tried to find a bulb holder that would allow 10 bulbs to be placed into their.. I have found multples issues with this...

#1. I cant find any that offer so many bulb outlets...
#2. I looked at holiday lights and the wattages are not high enough to allow such bulbs to heat the tortoise.
#3. you would need to invent and wire multple sockets together in a frame that is thermally stable, as well as parallel wire them together .
#4. The bulbs offered have a pointed tip at the end of the bulbs .. anything low wattage all have tip instead of flood lamp bases.


I tried but i seriously couldn't find anything. It would need to be invented and made from scratch.


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## glitch4200

leigti said:


> I know it wasn't. I would suggest that this person try a fixture that spreads out the heat and the light more than the ones that they have. Maybe something like this, 11 inches wide
> View attachment 139610
> 
> Very easy upgrade to make, using this fixture may change the results of some of the tests they are doing, I suggest they try it.



This lamp holder still does not change the dynamics of the bulb itself and how the bulb distributes the light. Localized heating is still an issue. As i have that style dome for my female russian and the same exact thing was happening during my thermal imaging of her. Those pics were taken from her habitat which has that flat large dome. So personally it all has to do with the bulb and not as much the holder. Even though there is some change it still makes the tissue overheat and unevenly heat as the bulbs heats.


----------



## leigti

I am glad that you are passionate about tortoise care. I have not read this entire thread and to end in quite a while. I think many tortoise enclosures are too dark. Especially if you have a big one like is recommended. That is where I think a long fluorescent tube type UVB helps. I think mercury vapor bulbs should be used in large fixtures, like the ones from the feed store, they cost $10 and are 11 to 12 inches wide. This helps spread out the UVB and heat and light in a way that I'm sure you can explain better than I can. I have experience with Russian tortoises basically. So that is where my first-hand experience comes from, that and box turtles. They are two very different species that need different things so I'm going to focus on Russians because that is what you have.
I am a little concerned that your enclosure might be too warm. Do you keep it 85° at night also? How far away from the top of your tortoise is your bowl? How wide are the fixtures? And how big is your enclosure?
I think that maybe you are causing some of the problems that you were actually trying to prevent. Please don't be defensive about that statement. I don't know for sure that's why I asked the above questions. So let's have constructive discussions now. Not taking sides but sharing information and ideas.


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## glitch4200

leigti said:


> I am glad that you are passionate about tortoise care. I have not read this entire thread and to end in quite a while. I think many tortoise enclosures are too dark. Especially if you have a big one like is recommended. That is where I think a long fluorescent tube type UVB helps. I think mercury vapor bulbs should be used in large fixtures, like the ones from the feed store, they cost $10 and are 11 to 12 inches wide. This helps spread out the UVB and heat and light in a way that I'm sure you can explain better than I can. I have experience with Russian tortoises basically. So that is where my first-hand experience comes from, that and box turtles. They are two very different species that need different things so I'm going to focus on Russians because that is what you have.
> I am a little concerned that your enclosure might be too warm. Do you keep it 85° at night also? How far away from the top of your tortoise is your bowl? How wide are the fixtures? And how big is your enclosure?
> I think that maybe you are causing some of the problems that you were actually trying to prevent. Please don't be defensive about that statement. I don't know for sure that's why I asked the above questions. So let's have constructive discussions now. Not taking sides but sharing information and ideas.



Haha ill explain a little better how its set up. Both tortoises are kept in habitats that ambiently reach 85 f. If you look at my habitat pic of nibbles that whole habiat is kept between 82 and 85f (depends on day). My basking is about 92- 97f (depends on day), the hides that are accessible which are plentiful go down to about 75f and are kept humid and the substrate always moist for microclimate. At night my temps drop between 68 and 71 all over the habitat. On occasion it might drop to like 65 but no lower then that. (They are in my room and habitats are covered at night with blankets, i like the cold  ).

I am very not a fan of a single heating lamp and one uvb lamp at all.. I found my 2 lamp system to work well. Even though my next made habiatas will allow me to inrease wattage and increase basking "zones" by upping the distance of the lamp and allowing my friend and i lamp filter to be installed.. But make no mistake about it, this does not take away the localized heating and any thermal imaging camera will show that across any tortoise housed under all tyoes of artificial lamps that are not filtreed accordingly. IE {CHE, Incandescent , mercury vapor, halogen , metal halide)

And they are dark for a reason. Because the lighting scheme is wrong. They should never be in the dark unless its night time and they are headed to bed. During the daytime outside its not dark anyhere but a shelter. If its dark in a habitat the tortoise is going to want to sleep. IF I HAD A PENNY FOR EVERY TIME I HEARD ALL MY TORT DOES IS SLEEP.. i would be a millionaire. Because a quick look at their lighting scheme shows one lamp in a huge habitat with one corner lit by a UVB bulb.. ITS LIKE DUHH!!! no wonder he wants to sleep all the time.... and the funniest thing is the people who listened to me .. miraculously had super active awake tortoises. (I have my own FB group now.) and people actually listen and i see excellent results.


----------



## Keith D.

Hiya Glitch, I have been following this post for some time now and have decided to go ahead and try EVCO on my Leo. I started today. I gave him his bath and let him soak for 25 to 30 min changing his water when it cooled down to much or when he dirtied it. After his soak he got a gentle scrubbing and then massaged with a teaspoon of EVCO, I rubbed it on his shell for a few minutes and then let it sit on him for another 2 or 3 min and then buffed any excess off, which wasn't much. I will be doing this three times a week and go from there. I believe in the benifical properties of EVCO as I use it for myself and my furry and feathered kids. I am attaching some pics of Leo after I did the application, don't mind his holding tank, I was way to busy today to change it. Hopefully if everything goes as planned he will be in his perminant setup by the end of the week. Oh and BTW Leo loves his massage lol
P.S. I only use Organic Extra Virgin Cold Pressed Unrefined Coconut Oil. Nothing but the best for my own use so nothing but the best for my scaly, furry and feathery kids


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## Yvonne G

G-stars said:


> Yup. Censorship at it's finest. I don't understand why though. As far as I can tell no forum rules were broken. And if there was any broken I would like to know which ones. The moderator out there who did this want to explain this???



The posts that were removed were argumentative and off topic.


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## leigti

glitch4200 said:


> Haha ill explain a little better how its set up. Both tortoises are kept in habitats that ambiently reach 85 f. If you look at my habitat pic of nibbles that whole habiat is kept between 82 and 85f (depends on day). My basking is about 92- 97f (depends on day), the hides that are accessible which are plentiful go down to about 75f and are kept humid and the substrate always moist for microclimate. At night my temps drop between 68 and 71 all over the habitat. On occasion it might drop to like 65 but no lower then that. (They are in my room and habitats are covered at night with blankets, i like the cold  ).
> 
> I am very not a fan of a single heating lamp and one uvb lamp at all.. I found my 2 lamp system to work well. Even though my next made habiatas will allow me to inrease wattage and increase basking "zones" by upping the distance of the lamp and allowing my friend and i lamp filter to be installed.. But make no mistake about it, this does not take away the localized heating and any thermal imaging camera will show that across any tortoise housed under all tyoes of artificial lamps that are not filtreed accordingly. IE {CHE, Incandescent , mercury vapor, halogen , metal halide)
> 
> And they are dark for a reason. Because the lighting scheme is wrong. They should never be in the dark unless its night time and they are headed to bed. During the daytime outside its not dark anyhere but a shelter. If its dark in a habitat the tortoise is going to want to sleep. IF I HAD A PENNY FOR EVERY TIME I HEARD ALL MY TORT DOES IS SLEEP.. i would be a millionaire. Because a quick look at their lighting scheme shows one lamp in a huge habitat with one corner lit by a UVB bulb.. ITS LIKE DUHH!!! no wonder he wants to sleep all the time.... and the funniest thing is the people who listened to me .. miraculously had super active awake tortoises. (I have my own FB group now.) and people actually listen and i see excellent results.


I like the fact that your habitat is light. I agree that dark enclosures are not good. I'm glad you let the temps drop at night. Somebody made a comment earlier that they thought your entire habitat was way too hot. Maybe because it looks in the picture like the lights are relatively close to the tortoises. How high above the top of the tortoises she'll are your bulbs?
And I understand your concern with a mercury vapor bulb. Do you think the effects would be better if it was in a larger fixture? Maybe test it and see. I know there'll still be some issues but maybe they would be less. Also, have you tested the tube fluorescent bulbs? Or do you plan to? I know your focus would not be on the heat but more the UVB for those.
I know there are people experimenting with alternatives to overhead heating.


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## Anyfoot

glitch4200 said:


> No it does not "stop" hot spots... my theory and idea is that it allows it to be spread out more evenly instead of localized.. coconut oil acts as a matrix between the harmful rays and the tortoise. It has refraction properties. I would bet 100$ you would see the worst hot spots from a CHE, as a CHE is emitting HIGH levels of IR-B and IR-C. and very little IR-A. This is not good. I will do some imaging of it and show you.. And ill show how bad localized heating is from a Ceramic emitter. If a tortoise is basking under a ceramic emitter my theory is that it is creating the worst of the localized heating because the way IR-B,C penetrates is very very poor. and super heating the top layers of the keratin is the probelm because you are breaking the bonds that hold the structure of the shell together at a biological level.


I'll be interested to see the results. Yes it will still give off hot spots. To not have a hot spot you need the heat source further away to create an ambient. I look forward to seeing your invention. I hope it works and is practical. Something to clip on an everyday shade that reflects the heat into different directions would be practical for all. A simple cone shape below the bulb would absorb and reflect the hot spot. Trouble is with coconut oil, its not practical for all. By the time you would have coconuted a heard of sulcata it would be bed time. I believe the answer is to have the heat source further away and treat the light as a different source from the heat. BTW. What is the thermal equipment called that you are using. Is it expensive. I have simple thermal guns for work. Can these be linked to software to get the images.


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## Yvonne G

zenoandthetortoise said:


> Argumentative posts in the Debatable Topics section? What, exactly is the problem?
> 
> As for being off topic, unless the OP has a problem with it, why do you?
> 
> Answer if you wish, I'll consider them rhetorical.
> 
> Endgame via moderator. Again.



I'm not going to fight with you, just to remind everyone that in a debate, each side states their opposing view. You and your alter ego, Heard, didn't state a view. You merely poo poo'd the opposition's view. I've re-read all the posts that were sent to the "TO BE DELETED" file, and none of them show an opposing view. They were just written to troll.


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## G-stars

Yvonne G said:


> The posts that were removed were argumentative and off topic.



Thank you Ms. Yvonne for clarifying that. You're correct they were off topic.


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## Yvonne G

Now let's all get back to talking about the pros and cons of using coconut oil, please?


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## Alaskamike

Uneven heating is addressed by deploying multiple bulbs of lower wattage and varying heights. Perhaps Glitch can wield his FLiR so as to explore this."

I thought of this myself some time ago , in fact I know many are trying this method in combination with high humidity and regular soaks to mitigate the drying of caprice. We have currently the recommendations for varying temps in the ecosystem set ups; basking spot- cool end- humid hide. As well as ambient ( overall) temps are all mentioned as optimum. 

If you have a 4' x 8' enclosed table this is made much easier. There is enough distance between areas to " git-er-done". But this is much more of a challenge with small floor area. Glass tanks especially. 

Ants
I though of this since I'm in Florida and those damn fire ants are an issue. But find the oil fresh or days later seems of no interest to them. Mine are 100% outdoors , so it would be easy to tell. Nothing so far - I'll keep an eye on it.


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## N2TORTS

Coconut oil does contain antimicrobial, anti-viral, ant-bacterial and anti-fungal properties. The anti-microbial actions kills harmful microbes in the infected area and helps it heal faster without infection. If you simmer some coconut oil with a garlic clove it acts as an antibacterial oil in sensitive areas like the nose, mouth and ear and helps heal the infection Coconut oil is filled with fatty acids, 50% of which are Lauric Acid. When it’s digested, it forms monoglyceride known as monolaurin. Both of these kill harmful pathogens including bacteria, fungi and viruses.
One I'm very familiar with ...Coconut oil can dramatically reduce seizures.This is how it works..... The fatty acids in coconut oil are turned into ketones, which are being applied to epilepsy treatments. Many epileptic patients are put on a special diet on which they consume very little carbs and a lot of fat because this creates increased amounts of ketone bodies in blood. According to Authority Nutrition, “Because the MCTs in coconut oil get shipped to the liver and turned into ketone bodies, they are often used in epileptic patients to induce ketosis while allowing for a bit more carbs in the diet.”


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## Alaskamike

N2TORTS said:


> Coconut oil does contain antimicrobial, anti-viral, ant-bacterial and anti-fungal properties. The anti-microbial actions kills harmful microbes in the infected area and helps it heal faster without infection. If you simmer some coconut oil with a garlic clove it acts as an antibacterial oil in sensitive areas like the nose, mouth and ear and helps heal the infection Coconut oil is filled with fatty acids, 50% of which are Lauric Acid. When it’s digested, it forms monoglyceride known as monolaurin. Both of these kill harmful pathogens including bacteria, fungi and viruses.
> One I'm very familiar with ...Coconut oil can dramatically reduce seizures.This is how it works..... The fatty acids in coconut oil are turned into ketones, which are being applied to epilepsy treatments. Many epileptic patients are put on a special diet on which they consume very little carbs and a lot of fat because this creates increased amounts of ketone bodies in blood. According to Authority Nutrition, “Because the MCTs in coconut oil get shipped to the liver and turned into ketone bodies, they are often used in epileptic patients to induce ketosis while allowing for a bit more carbs in the diet.”



The antibacterial, anti-viral, and anti-fungal properties interest me , since in South Florida it can get so humid during the rainy season that mold, bacteria, and fungi get crazy. 
It's early in the morning here right now and 82f with 89% humidity. should get to 90f+ ambient today My Sulcata and my Aldabra live in outside enclosures, so the issues of lighting are not a problem for them, they get plenty of sunlight and their outside box / hides are heated with a radiant heater in the winter to 80-92f all the time. I use no lamps. Saying that, I've still been fascinated with the explanations of beta and alpha keratin and how it form and grows. May of my questions about the causes of pyramiding have been answered.Good stuff. When I got my Sully he was 2 yo and pyramided. I've been working to see that this stopped and smooths out.as best it can. And it seems to be improving every month.

My Sulcata has an underground cave and in summer now spends allot of time in there. The humidity down there is 90% + all the time. After a rain (which it does almost daily) he comes out covered in mud. Must have a good time down there digging in it. 

SO I apply the EVCO weekly to combat the possibility of mold growth on their shells, as well as anything starting in the scratches they get on them from digging around in the dirt. The Sully especially - he is such a bull dozer. I put it on the plastron also. Have watched for ants, as was previously brought up, and see no problem with them. They do not seem to be attracted to the oil, fresh or old. I think though, I'll put a little EVCO in a jar lid and set it out in the yard and see what happens. I'm curious to see if any bugs care for it.

When I was raising a few Leopard babies (I've since gotten out of Leopards) I had a 4' x 8' tort table, covered in plexiglass, kept humid at 60-80% and used CHE as well as a UVB. My leopards were okay - not perfect, but I sold them before really knowing how their shells would fully turn out. I wish I had known about the EVCO then to experiment with it. I see so few adult Leopards with smooth shells. I wonder if the high humidity method is working as well with them as it does for the Sulcatas. Maybe someone can answer this. It seems the leopards are extremely prone to pyramiding.

Would love to see some Leopards raised indoors with humid chambers and no pyramiding- Maybe some one out there is doing this and could comment with pictures? I think if I ever do raise more young ones, I would do both EVCO AND closed chambers and see if it makes a difference. While there have been some reasonable question as to the efficacy of EVCO, in reviewing the available data on it, I see no real downside to the application on shells. 

In humid closed chambers the possibility of mold , bacteria and fungus proliferation is always present. I know many have not seen this, but some have a problem with it. May very well depend on where in the country you are. Out West where it is dry not so much, in the South East and Mid West mold and fungi travel on the wind. Enters your home every time you open a door or crack a window open.


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## AMMG

This "experiment" has limited value. We can learn nothing about the positive effects of coconut oil from this. Yes, your tortoises look good. But that may be due to your husbandry practices aside from the oil. The oil may be doing nothing at all. 

You can cite facts about the properties of coconut oil all day, and even if all those facts suggest that oil should have a positive effect on tortoise shells, it is meaningless until it is demonstrated. There are too many variables and unknowns in tortoise care to link the keratin and uv light factoids posted in this thread to the health of the shells of your tortoises.

If you keep this up for another 19 years with similar results, we may be able to state that coconut oil will not harm tortoises. But that is very different from the claims you are attempting to make in this thread. 

Given that you have 2 tortoises, it really seems like a wasted opportunity that you did not choose to oil one and not the other, to observe the differences in shell growth. That would have demonstrated something, albeit to a limited degree. Until 2 hatchlings from the same clutch are raised in the same conditions, with the only difference in husbandry practices being one shell is oiled and the other is not, we will have no reliable understanding on the effects of coconut oil on shell growth.


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## Yvonne G

Hi AMMG, and welcome to the Forum! Won't you take a few minutes to post a thread in our "Introductions" section and tell us a bit about yourself and your tortoises?


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## Alaskamike

AMMG said:


> This "experiment" has limited value. We can learn nothing about the positive effects of coconut oil from this. Yes, your tortoises look good. But that may be due to your husbandry practices aside from the oil. The oil may be doing nothing at all.
> 
> You can cite facts about the properties of coconut oil all day, and even if all those facts suggest that oil should have a positive effect on tortoise shells, it is meaningless until it is demonstrated. There are too many variables and unknowns in tortoise care to link the keratin and uv light factoids posted in this thread to the health of the shells of your tortoises.
> 
> If you keep this up for another 19 years with similar results, we may be able to state that coconut oil will not harm tortoises. But that is very different from the claims you are attempting to make in this thread.
> 
> Given that you have 2 tortoises, it really seems like a wasted opportunity that you did not choose to oil one and not the other, to observe the differences in shell growth. That would have demonstrated something, albeit to a limited degree. Until 2 hatchlings from the same clutch are raised in the same conditions, with the only difference in husbandry practices being one shell is oiled and the other is not, we will have no reliable understanding on the effects of coconut oil on shell growth.



I think you make some valid points. 

- It is not an experiment in scientific terms without strict protocol, an unbiased expectation, and a control group – preferably with a decent _n. - dozens probably._

- It can take years to see results of shell growth and overall health of tortoises

- No amount of antidotal information can substitute for facts that be substantiated in a controlled experiment

But having conceded this, there are some things I think we can learn from the researched properties of coconut oil, as well as an understanding of how tortoise shells form and grow. I know I have learned allot from the exchanges here, and it prompted me to really study what is known of shell formation and the underlying biology of the tortoise. 

There is also substantiated science behind the way artificial lights work, heat & infrared, and the wavelengths present. It is worth knowing and looking intently at this.

I agree that to make this a scientific study – even a basic amateur one – you would need to have a control group and a treatment group. Raise them as much as possible in the same environment, same food sources, light, etc., and then document their progress carefully. If I remember correctly this has been brought up and addressed as a flaw several times in this thread. The OP readily admits this is not what he is doing. Sometimes his enthusiasm for EVCO has brought criticism. At least he is trying something and I think it shows promise.

This whole thing reminds me a little bit of the high humid argument and husbandry practices that evolved in the hobby over the last 10 years or so. Even today with multiple successes there are still many who refute the idea, say it is unnatural, and claim it has both no scientific backing, or logical foundation. They still argue it is strictly a food, exercise, lack of sunlight issue. They point out it is antidotal, although the volume of babies raised this way who show no signs of pyramiding is growing steadily. Some say that the long term effects of a high humid environment may actually be causing internal damage to the tortoise we will not see for years.

I am not aware of anyone who has raised babies side by side, with all other things being as equal as possible, other that frequent soaks and high humidity long enough to demonstrate that the control group pyramids, and the ones in the high humid environment did not. If that study is out there I’d love to see it. 

The information and growing evidence that good hydration and high humidity combine to keep shell growth smooth has come entirely from antidotal information and results over time from an initial hypothesis. It has come from breeders and hobbyists who despite their best care practices with food and environment were still seeing their tortoises pyramid. So they tried something else. And seeing progress and improvement continued and refined the practice. It is, as you noted, a long drawn out process. Not ideal, and not very ‘scientific’. And very antidotal. But still, it convinced me.

Regardless, progress is sometimes made this way. We hobbyists are not research scientists, but we do allot of amateur research into all the environmental components that can contribute to our pets health and well being. Sometimes we get it wrong, sometimes we get it right, and sometimes we stumble onto something that really makes a difference.


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## AMMG

The high humid argument did not need to raise hatchlings side by side to prove its value. The control group was available in past experiences of raising hatchlings in low humidity. 

There is no such historical control group here. Has anyone had pyramiding issues in lamp heated open table tops where high humidity was nevertheless established from day one? If anything, I see the opposite reading this forum.

I note the tortoises in this thread are hydrated very well. Thus, we cannot know if their shells are healthy due to the humidity or the oil. 

Seems like many people are seeing the tortoises' smooth shells in this thread and concluding the oil is a causal factor. This is wrong.


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## Alaskamike

AMMG said:


> The high humid argument did not need to raise hatchlings side by side to prove its value. The control group was available in past experiences of raising hatchlings in low humidity.
> 
> There is no such historical control group here. Has anyone had pyramiding issues in lamp heated open table tops where high humidity was nevertheless established from day one? If anything, I see the opposite reading this forum.
> 
> I note the tortoises in this thread are hydrated very well. Thus, we cannot know if their shells are healthy due to the humidity or the oil.
> 
> Seems like many people are seeing the tortoises' smooth shells in this thread and concluding the oil is a causal factor. This is wrong.


You raise good points.
You are correct that there is no historical evidence as we find in the high humidity-hydration / dry raising experiences. But I would point out that the EVCO idea is new..... certainly not enough time to draw conclusions from experience. You are right we cannot know causal factors with the way this is being used. I know the OP has made appeals to others to experiment with this, but not many are.

OPEN TABLES
However, I am not sure anyone could create high humidity in an open table top - at least I know I can't. Both my air conditioning and heat reduce humidity in my home greatly. Even with a damp substrata, misting, etc., I could not achieve even 60% on a regular basis. I had to cover my tables with plexiglass to get that done. It can be argued that all we need to do is create the correct humidity, the right ecosystems and we would see smooth shell growth. This is demonstrated by many here. @Tom is the most vocal about this and certainly has raised 100'ds of torts / with and without the humidity as demonstrated the difference.. He should know. And there are multiple threads of people using these methods and having success.

So you can rightly argue that the use on an additional product like EVCO is pointless, especially since we do not know the efficacy, or potential side effects, and another method, using only water / humidity / closed chambers- has been shown effective. This seems to be the major point of most who critique EVCO use. 

I am most probably in the minority, in that I am constantly curious and striving to create as healthy an environment as possible. Guess I'm never fully satisfied.  If a new healthy plant becomes available I offer it to see if they will eat it, if an underground hide seems appropriate I build it. These are additions to an already healthy environment, not a panacea. And I do not see EVCO as a substitute for a solid proper heat distribution, good food, appropriate light, hydration, etc. That I believe would be irresponsible, and bad for our tortoises. 

There is always a balance in nature. Shells need hydration, but also need to dry out at times. Sunlight is good, but too much is bad. Substitute lighting indoors for the sun, as well as basking lamps have drawbacks, and are frequently used improperly. Tortoises need basking and heat, but also a cool lace out of the sun and a dark place to rest and hide. They self regulate when the proper environment allow them to do so. 

So.... long explanation with some random thought. I apologize. I know this is not very precise -maybe not even helpful , but I've said all of that to point out that the use of EVCO for problems captive tortoises, especially those raised indoors, MAY be a good addition. I am not totally convinced, but nor am I inclined to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I will say this much I am fairly sure of
- EVCO reduces desiccating effects of overhead heat lamps. 
- It has enough anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, and anti-viral properties to be used as a preventative to shell rot, and mold proliferation on shells in high humid environments - like I experience with mine here in South Florida in the summer rainy season. May even help with this in enclosed high humid chambers where mold could become an issue. 
- The unfortunate truth is that many people are raising tortoises indoors on tortoise tables or aquariums with open tops, low humidity , desiccating lamps, and pyramiding tortoises. While not a cure all, the application of coconut oil to the caprice is simple and not expensive Creating the right ecosystem on the other hand takes more effort , $, and time. As a interim help, EVCO could be recommended while pushing to get the right enclosed environment done. 

Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion and logic. I am somewhat of a nutritionist / health nut and I discuss health issues often with people. If people ask, I Recommend diet changes and exercise. Some make changes, some do not. I know enough about human nature to suggest that even if a person does not have the willpower or desire to eat a healthy balanced meal, they at least can take a high quality vitamin / mineral supplement to help their body metabolize food better and make up a bit for the lacks in diet. It is not an all or nothing choice, and this is often what we find i tortoise care.

Some people will go to great lengths to create the optimum environment for the tortoise - some will give it a lick and a promise and hope for the best, some don't give a damn. It is the way it is.


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## glitch4200

AMMG said:


> The high humid argument did not need to raise hatchlings side by side to prove its value. The control group was available in past experiences of raising hatchlings in low humidity.
> 
> There is no such historical control group here. Has anyone had pyramiding issues in lamp heated open table tops where high humidity was nevertheless established from day one? If anything, I see the opposite reading this forum.
> 
> I note the tortoises in this thread are hydrated very well. Thus, we cannot know if their shells are healthy due to the humidity or the oil.
> 
> Seems like many people are seeing the tortoises' smooth shells in this thread and concluding the oil is a causal factor. This is wrong.



Their is a lot to cover... I would like to point out my habitat is not kept at high humidity.. It I open table top. I struggle to maintain 50 percent.. Majority of the time my humidity is below 40 percent. Despite me spraying and soaking the habitat down each day. By days end I am back at 30 percent humidity or less. I often see humidity levels creep close to 20 percent. 

I try to keep the substrate moist and humid hides. But in reality I don't do that we'll at keeping the humidity up despite every day effort. I soak my tortoises almost every single day, as I fear they don't get enough humidity sustained like they should (50% or higher sustained) while in open table top.. So technically.. They have been raised in a low humid environment.. As high humidity is sustained (my opinion) at 60 percent or more. And I do not provide that type of environment.. Despite all the positive information on high humid environment, I do not have am enclosed habitats making it almost impossible to sustain that type of humidity. 

I know it bugs many of you that I did not keep one tortoise oiled and one tortoise not oiled. That I have no control group, no set procedure, few controlled variables etc. I see why many of you think this is poorly designed experiment, and it is. I am working towards my higher education degree in research psychology and it bugs me too I don't have a control, set protocol, defined variables, and highly detailed data sheets. It really does.. Becuae I want this to be accepted for what it is.. And it isn't straight forward science.. Its botched, cut up from the depths of my mind and tried to be explained the best way I know how... It's not perfect but it's more then majority of people do for their reptiles and animals they own. 

I have always promoted high humid, hydrating environments. I have never said screw all other husndsdry ideas and just apply coconut oil. I have always stuck up for this oil as an added protection towards artificial lighting for indoor kept tortoises. Not as an answer to this issue. As much as people push temperature gradients and proper lighting schemes. No one has told me the proper lighting scheme, all I have heard is distributed light using multiple lighting sources to reach proper temp gradients. 

I want to know what lights in what order and position with what bulbs will give me smooth happy health tortoise. I keep hearing the lame superficial answer. I want to know from sure without doubt what bulbs are the best, in what order using what lamps holders, at what distance, spread over what time frame. All I hear is oh.. 'Spread the light and provide temp gradients.'

No mention of the best bulbs that minimize the effects I have so blatantly stated multiple times through out the thread or the distance needed to stop the detrimental effects that I have oh so described. It's the same superficial answers.. And to the tortoise keepers that have raised indoor smooth grown bone dense tortoises please share your secret lighting scheme so the masses of tortoises keepers can be on the level as well. 

Becuae as far as I see it, right now, no one person in this entire forum has come up with a fool proof indoor lighting scheme that will create super healthy smooth tortoises without major adjustments constantly to the habitat... Where is this magical lighting scheme that renders coconut oil useless? Please.. I would love to know. And would immediately begin pushing such lighting scheme set ups to keepers all over.. Because despite people saying their are such lighting schemes, I have yet to be explained what it is..


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## Tom

glitch4200 said:


> I want to know what lights in what order and position with what bulbs will give me smooth happy health tortoise. I keep hearing the lame superficial answer. I want to know from sure without doubt what bulbs are the best, in what order using what lamps holders, at what distance, spread over what time frame. All I hear is oh.. 'Spread the light and provide temp gradients.'
> 
> No mention of the best bulbs that minimize the effects I have so blatantly stated multiple times through out the thread or the distance needed to stop the detrimental effects that I have oh so described. It's the same superficial answers.. And to the tortoise keepers that have raised indoor smooth grown bone dense tortoises please share your secret lighting scheme so the masses of tortoises keepers can be on the level as well.
> 
> Becuae as far as I see it, right now, no one person in this entire forum has come up with a fool proof indoor lighting scheme that will create super healthy smooth tortoises without major adjustments constantly to the habitat... Where is this magical lighting scheme that renders coconut oil useless? Please.. I would love to know. And would immediately begin pushing such lighting scheme set ups to keepers all over.. Because despite people saying their are such lighting schemes, I have yet to be explained what it is..



There is no one size-fits-all perfect answer for this. Every enclosure, home and situation is different. Every tortoise enclosure is a custom job. There are now a bevy of good products to use to accomplish the goals of correct parameters for any given species and size tortoise. Everyone must take what is available and adapt it, modify it and make it work for THEIR individual situation. 

"Fool proof"? Sorry. Doesn't exist. Fools will always find a way to mess things up.

I have had good results using:
1. 65 watt regular flood bulbs for a basking area. Height of the bulb should be determined in each enclosure by the thermometer probe under the bulb or the infrared thermometer readings.
2. Regular 5000-6500 K florescent light tubes for illumination.
3. Arcadia 12% HO tubes for UV. Mounted approximately 20" high and on a timer for 4-5 hours a day, mid day. Again, mounting height should be determined by a UV meter in each individual enclosure.
4. CHEs set on thermostats to maintain ambient.

All of the above are used in closed chambers.

Here is this years growth experiment. It might be of interest to you:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/2015-growth-experiment.119874/


Question: You believe the humid hydrated methods to be good and even go so far as to promote them, so why are your young tortoises in an open topped table with humidity as low as 20%?


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## Tom

Alaskamike said:


> OPEN TABLES
> However, I am not sure anyone could create high humidity in an open table top - at least I know I can't. Both my air conditioning and heat reduce humidity in my home greatly. Even with a damp substrata, misting, etc., I could not achieve even 60% on a regular basis. I had to cover my tables with plexiglass to get that done. It can be argued that all we need to do is create the correct humidity, the right ecosystems and we would see smooth shell growth. This is demonstrated by many here. @Tom is the most vocal about this and certainly has raised 100'ds of torts / with and without the humidity as demonstrated the difference.. He should know. And there are multiple threads of people using these methods and having success.



Open tables are a great easy way to house tortoises and they work very well _*IF*_ the air in the room is the correct temperature and humidity for the species being cared for. If the air in the room is not of the correct temperature and humidity for the individual tortoise being cared for, an open table makes maintaining the correct conditions very difficult, if not impossible.


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## Alaskamike

So…..

In a way, Glitch is doing an experiment, although of course, no control group – in that he is raising these 2 torts in an open table top / artificial lamps with average household humidity. The proof is “in the pudding” – as they say -. If he continues to do this, and his torts do not pyramid as others in this kind of environment would be expected to, would that show folks anything at all? I wonder.

I’m not sure, but it would be an indicator if nothing else. A correlation at least.

Would love to see someone do this with say – 10 leopard or sulcata babies, raised in same indoor enclosure, same care , with 1/2 getting the EVCO treatment. Now then we could have some evidence in a few years since they grow so fast. 

It is hard for anyone who loves tortoises to subject any to possible damage and long term health problems from improper care. But until this is done, we will continue to speculate and debate this as antidotal.


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## Anyfoot

Hi all. I see this debate is still on the go. Without me going back through the thread trying to find if you mentioned it or not. Does coconutting your tort make the tort hydrated as well as to dissapate the heat spots more evenly?


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## Anyfoot

Anyfoot said:


> Hi all. I see this debate is still on the go. Without me going back through the thread trying to find if you mentioned it or not. Does coconutting your tort make the tort hydrated as well as to dissapate the heat spots more evenly?


Im thinking the fact you spray and bathe your torts most days is overiding any true outcome of your coconut experiment. You are in effect keeping them humid as well as using coconut oil, so we will never know if they are growing smooth because of the oil or the constant spray/bathing. The only way to prove this is to only put oil on one tort. Can you do this? The fact is that some of the more experienced tort keepers on here are growing smooth torts without coconutting them.
BTW. I'm glad you did this experiment because it highlighted the impact of hot spots to me. Most probably already new. Anyway my way to combat hot spots will be to create a smoother heat source. One way is to use a closed chamber with more of an ambient temp rather than a harsh hot area, and don't have the heat source too close to the torts. This said I have redfoots and i dont intend to have a specific basking area, just a heat gradient.


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## Alaskamike

@Anyfoot IMO bathing and spraying your torts is not a substitute for high humidity under lamps. It does not keep them humid, or the shell properly hydrated, as the moisture is wicked away rapidly if room humidity is 20-40%. This is easy to demonstrate. Spray down your table and torts and then an hour later put a humidity gauge in there at ground level. You'll see what I mean. 

There is a difference in raising them with constant humid air at say *80% 

To having an open table top indoors and making sure they have plenty of water and spraying them or their enclosure down several times a day. 

I know some with open table tops do this and seem to think it is a substitute - does the same thing but I don't believe so.


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## Anyfoot

Alaskamike said:


> @Anyfoot IMO bathing and spraying your torts is not a substitute for high humidity under lamps. It does not keep them humid, or the shell properly hydrated, as the moisture is wicked away rapidly if room humidity is 20-40%. This is easy to demonstrate. Spray down your table and torts and then an hour later put a humidity gauge in there at ground level. You'll see what I mean.
> 
> There is a difference in raising them with constant humid air at say *80%
> 
> To having an open table top indoors and making sure they have plenty of water and spraying them or their enclosure down several times a day.
> 
> I know some with open table tops do this and seem to think it is a substitute - does the same thing but I don't believe so.


I totally agree with you Mike 100%. When I asked if coconut oil also hydrates the tort I was referring too, does it replace humidity. If this tort is in a very low humidity enclosure but still is growing smoothly with the aid of coconut oil it suggests that torts don't need humidity, just coconut oil. So in IMO this tort is getting some sort of humidity. How accurately the humidity level is being read, I don't know. But if it is as low as 20% this means coconut oil is magic. I don't understand why a tort can be in an apparently dry environment with just coconut oil on it and grow smooth. Or is the constant bathing and spraying helping it grow smooth? Cheers.


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## leigti

If the tortoise is getting very frequent soaks and sprays then humidity in the enclosure it's self wouldn't be necessary. But that is a lot of high maintenance that some of us don't have time to do.


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## Anyfoot

leigti said:


> If the tortoise is getting very frequent soaks and sprays then humidity in the enclosure it's self wouldn't be necessary. But that is a lot of high maintenance that some of us don't have time to do.


Hi there. 
So do you agree if that is the case. We won't know if the coconut oil is helping these torts growing smoothly because the experiment is being clouded.


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## Anyfoot

Could it be that the tort is getting hydrated through bathing, and the oil is slowing the dehydration process down from within the tort?
If so, is that a good or bad thing not letting it dry out from with?
Just throwing thoughts in the pot and being open minded about this.


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## Randi

I went out today and bought some to try. I wouldn't use it very often. Is this ok to use? It is very hard to find.


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## Alaskamike

Anyfoot said:


> I totally agree with you Mike 100%. When I asked if coconut oil also hydrates the tort I was referring too, does it replace humidity. If this tort is in a very low humidity enclosure but still is growing smoothly with the aid of coconut oil it suggests that torts don't need humidity, just coconut oil. So in IMO this tort is getting some sort of humidity. How accurately the humidity level is being read, I don't know. But if it is as low as 20% this means coconut oil is magic. I don't understand why a tort can be in an apparently dry environment with just coconut oil on it and grow smooth. Or is the constant bathing and spraying helping it grow smooth? Cheers.



I think there is a clarification that could be made. And even as I say this , am aware others can disagree or chime in here and make more sense than I do. 

As I study how the alpha and beta keratin form it is apparent to me that moisture in the shell and overall hydration of the tortoise is vitally important - are linked together. If this is not present there is an over proliferation of beta keratin deposits in an attempt to provide more insulation and protection from moisture loss. This is then visually seen in a thickening of the caprice and pyramiding scutes as they 
push upward since the deposited of keratin are outstripping the growth of the shell outward. MBD can result. 

keratin is hydrated in several ways. The Alpha keratin ( new live underlying growth ) is hydrated by the water in the tortoise system. It is internal. This internal hydration also affects the beta keratin ( the outer layers - like fingernails). If the tortoise is dehydrated due to lack of water ( internal ) so is the keratin. 

What then could the EVCO be doing to help ? Well , I believe it creates a barrier to moisture loss through the exterior of the shell. This keeps it more playable and as new layers of growth are added they deposited in a smooth even basis. 

The oil itself does not hydrate. But it does slow down dehydration. 

So does a very humid environment. One could argue they may be doing the same thing. 

Maybe .... and I am tentative on the , but maybe that is why it would work.


----------



## leigti

Alaskamike said:


> I think there is a clarification that could be made. And even as I say this , am aware others can disagree or chime in here and make more sense than I do.
> 
> As I study how the alpha and beta keratin form it is apparent to me that moisture in the shell and overall hydration of the tortoise is vitally important - are linked together. If this is not present there is an over proliferation of beta keratin deposits in an attempt to provide more insulation and protection from moisture loss. This is then visually seen in a thickening of the caprice and pyramiding scutes as they
> push upward since the deposited of keratin are outstripping the growth of the shell outward. MBD can result.
> 
> keratin is hydrated in several ways. The Alpha keratin ( new live underlying growth ) is hydrated by the water in the tortoise system. It is internal. This internal hydration also affects the beta keratin ( the outer layers - like fingernails). If the tortoise is dehydrated due to lack of water ( internal ) so is the keratin.
> 
> What then could the EVCO be doing to help ? Well , I believe it creates a barrier to moisture loss through the exterior of the shell. This keeps it more playable and as new layers of growth are added they deposited in a smooth even basis.
> 
> The oil itself does not hydrate. But it does slow down dehydration.
> 
> So does a very humid environment. One could argue they may be doing the same thing.
> 
> Maybe .... and I am tentative on the , but maybe that is why it would work.


I really don't know much about the different kinds of Charitan. When I start reading into it too much I get flashbacks of microbiology :-( having said that I do respect the scientific method and glitch realizes that this is not a purely scientific experiment. No control group etc. so a lot of the information we get we are just going to have to make assumptions about, educated guesses at best. Anecdotal information is not necessarily bad and should not be ignored.
Because I haven't read the whole thread I am going to make some guesses here. I am going to guess that because the lights are close to the tortoise and it is an open topped table and the substrate can only be so moist in these conditions, my guess would be that the oil does slow down dehydration in the shell by forming a barrier between the hot lights and the tortoise. Howellwood using the oil affect the overall hydration levels of the inside of the tortoise?


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## leigti

Anyfoot said:


> I totally agree with you Mike 100%. When I asked if coconut oil also hydrates the tort I was referring too, does it replace humidity. If this tort is in a very low humidity enclosure but still is growing smoothly with the aid of coconut oil it suggests that torts don't need humidity, just coconut oil. So in IMO this tort is getting some sort of humidity. How accurately the humidity level is being read, I don't know. But if it is as low as 20% this means coconut oil is magic. I don't understand why a tort can be in an apparently dry environment with just coconut oil on it and grow smooth. Or is the constant bathing and spraying helping it grow smooth? Cheers.


I don't think coconut oil is a replacement for humidity. I think the oil is working on the shell and possibly the skin. But that's only skin deep so to speak. If the tortoise does not have enough water and humidity for its insides then who cares what the shelf looks like.


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## leigti

OK, I went back and read a few pages. Glitch, I know you are very interested in the lighting aspect but it seems like you are not paying much attention to other aspects. You say you agree that the Hewwood method is effective but you don't do it. And your lights seem extremely close to your tortoises, at least that's what it looks like in the pictures. You said you don't plan on getting your tortoises outside for natural sunlight. Your enclosure seem a little small. It seems you are looking for a lighting system that along with the use of coconut oil, will make up for Bad husbandry in other areas. You say you want a lighting system that is foolproof. You are almost hostile towards suggestions to use different fixtures or different types and spacing of bulbs to spread out the UV and the heat over a wider area. You don't like the idea of a temperature gradient for adult tortoises. I stand by my previous statement, I feel you are creating the problems that you were trying to solve. You are rejecting what is basically considered proper husbandry and trying to find a quick fix all. Have you even considered the needs of different species of tortoises?
When this thread started I thought you might be onto something. Maybe you were but now I'm not sure what direction you're going.


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## glitch4200

Alaskamike said:


> I think there is a clarification that could be made. And even as I say this , am aware others can disagree or chime in here and make more sense than I do.
> 
> As I study how the alpha and beta keratin form it is apparent to me that moisture in the shell and overall hydration of the tortoise is vitally important - are linked together. If this is not present there is an over proliferation of beta keratin deposits in an attempt to provide more insulation and protection from moisture loss. This is then visually seen in a thickening of the caprice and pyramiding scutes as they
> push upward since the deposited of keratin are outstripping the growth of the shell outward. MBD can result.
> 
> keratin is hydrated in several ways. The Alpha keratin ( new live underlying growth ) is hydrated by the water in the tortoise system. It is internal. This internal hydration also affects the beta keratin ( the outer layers - like fingernails). If the tortoise is dehydrated due to lack of water ( internal ) so is the keratin.
> 
> What then could the EVCO be doing to help ? Well , I believe it creates a barrier to moisture loss through the exterior of the shell. This keeps it more playable and as new layers of growth are added they deposited in a smooth even basis.
> 
> The oil itself does not hydrate. But it does slow down dehydration.
> 
> So does a very humid environment. One could argue they may be doing the same thing.
> 
> Maybe .... and I am tentative on the , but maybe that is why it would work.




This is where i am going to interject and propose a theory.

The 2 systems of a tortoise have internal hydration and external hydration. Water for the internal needs are taken by drinking water and breathing in humid air to aid in hydration of lungs organs. Then their is water for the proteins of the shell for proper function equalized through relative humidity and moist microclimates (burrowing into moist substrate = shell hydration).

I very much believe that one plays on the other but their is a distinct difference in internal hydration and external hydration. Internal hydration will allow the blood to be rich with much needed moisture to allow functioning of internal needs. External hydration will focus strictly on the bonds that hold together the matrix of the alpha keratin. Hydrogen bonds allow the alpha keratin matrix to function correctly. The bonds that hold the structural alpha keratin together are hydrogen. And hydrogen is the first bond broken when exposed to artificial lamps and its "unfiltered" infrared. This system is going to be seperate from the internal system.. As we break bonds of hydrogen in the keratin the proliferation of beta keratin to protect that soft matrix of alpha keratin is going to be pronounced.

Coconut oil does create a barrier. But it also hydrates as well, their are research articles on the effects of coconut oil in human skin which is pretty similar to the basic building blocks of the tortoises shell and skin. They argue that coconut oil deeply moisturizes and protects againsnt heat (hair drier & curling iron) by biochemically binding to the keratin and acting as a barrier and deep keratin moisturizer. I have all the reaseach articles i have used , on my facebook group. I will try and post it all here for you. Their is moisture in the oil. Water. Low levels of water. It is possible that the biochemical reaction of the keratin allows the hydrogen to be replaced through the oil. (guess) It is also not out of the realm of possibility that coconut oil allows keratin to be repaired at a cellular level as i stated replacing the hydrogen could rebuild the functioning of abused keratin.

I wont say that coconut oil replaces humidity. But i do think it provides its own enviornement for functioning. But it is not a replacement.

Once the top layers of keratin have been dehydrated the main internal hydration system will try and supplement the needed moisture by stealing moisture internally to replace to the external hydration lost. So if we had 2 systems of hydration being assulted ... lack of internal and lack of external. You have very easily explained dehydration . The skin is very effected by this too. Being run on sun power. The suns biosynthesis occures in the skin and if the skin is dehydrated the skin wont be able to function and synthesis the micronutrients present. So again the internal hydration must pcik up the slack for external hydration. This puts lots of stress on a tortoise that is both externally dehydrated and internally dehydrated. And suspectfully lead to many dehydration pronounced issues during its life. 

I think you all need to seperate the body from the shell and think of them seperately. Even if they are connected a lack of one will create a deficiency in another. As the scale is trying to balance itself.


----------



## glitch4200

Anyfoot said:


> Im thinking the fact you spray and bathe your torts most days is overiding any true outcome of your coconut experiment. You are in effect keeping them humid as well as using coconut oil, so we will never know if they are growing smooth because of the oil or the constant spray/bathing. The only way to prove this is to only put oil on one tort. Can you do this? The fact is that some of the more experienced tort keepers on here are growing smooth torts without coconutting them.
> BTW. I'm glad you did this experiment because it highlighted the impact of hot spots to me. Most probably already new. Anyway my way to combat hot spots will be to create a smoother heat source. One way is to use a closed chamber with more of an ambient temp rather than a harsh hot area, and don't have the heat source too close to the torts. This said I have redfoots and i dont intend to have a specific basking area, just a heat gradient.




No, I will not su


leigti said:


> OK, I went back and read a few pages. Glitch, I know you are very interested in the lighting aspect but it seems like you are not paying much attention to other aspects. You say you agree that the Hewwood method is effective but you don't do it. And your lights seem extremely close to your tortoises, at least that's what it looks like in the pictures. You said you don't plan on getting your tortoises outside for natural sunlight. Your enclosure seem a little small. It seems you are looking for a lighting system that along with the use of coconut oil, will make up for Bad husbandry in other areas. You say you want a lighting system that is foolproof. You are almost hostile towards suggestions to use different fixtures or different types and spacing of bulbs to spread out the UV and the heat over a wider area. You don't like the idea of a temperature gradient for adult tortoises. I stand by my previous statement, I feel you are creating the problems that you were trying to solve. You are rejecting what is basically considered proper husbandry and trying to find a quick fix all. Have you even considered the needs of different species of tortoises?
> When this thread started I thought you might be onto something. Maybe you were but now I'm not sure what direction you're going.




I have been paying attention to all the aspects. My lamps are about 12 to 13 inches from the top of the tortoises shell and skin. Which is the recommended heights for the lamps i am using. it may look like they are close but they are all about 13 inches away from the top of the shell. My tortoises get outside about 2x to 3x times a week for about 20 to 30 minutes or so. My habitats are as big as i can allow inside my home. My habitats are 4.3 x 2.8. I also allow them running around time outside the habitat, as they have a pretty empty room that is safe for them to run around in. i try to take them out every single day for atleast 2 to 3 hours each of their habitats. 

Until i am able to procure funds for new habitats this is what i am going to be working with.. I am able to properly hit the temp gradients needed in the habitats i am working with. My ambient temps are 85f. My basking is 96f. My cool zones which are my 5x humid hides go down to about 75f - 77f during the day time. At night my temps drop between 67 F. to 70F. 

I am not against temp gradients... I just feel 90% of people think one heat bulb and UVb lamp is effective at creating a gradient temp properly. I see it all the time on facebook groups in their habitat pics. The most widely used set up is the 2x bulb set up. 1x Mercury vapor bulb on one side of the habitat. And 1x uvb bulb close by to the heat lamp. Then they think the rest of the habitat must be the "cool" zone. So its left pretty dark and cool. 

That is arrogant and wrong. So pretty much your limiting the tortoise to the basking lamp and uvb lamp for heating and seeing light and keeping the rest of the habitat cool and dark. This right here is the common set up around the world when housing tortoises indoors. I have probably told over 300 people to add a second heating element and spread out the Uvb light so the tortoise can roam the table and be warm and see all over.Instead of being confined to a corner of the habitat. My tortoises like to be warm. And through observation when i keep my ambient temps at 85 f. He will fall asleep anywhere. Whereas, before when only giving him a single basking lamp (very early on in his care before i knew better). He was confined to the basking lamp section almost all day. 

I feel the whole gradient guideline is being done incorrectly all over. People are offering incorrect temp gradients. I see it all the time on facebook groups. And i have a picture to show you all that shows exactly what i am talking about.

Also about my lamps. The lamp holders i have can be upgraded to the wider dome lamp holders. So i can get a tiny bit more spread in the bulbs themselves. But otherwise, i dont see where my issue is in my lighting scheme. I hit the gradients i need even in my smaller habitat. And being an open table top i need more powerful lamps to heat my area up, as its constantly being equalized by the surrounding air.


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## glitch4200

leigti said:


> I don't think coconut oil is a replacement for humidity. I think the oil is working on the shell and possibly the skin. But that's only skin deep so to speak. If the tortoise does not have enough water and humidity for its insides then who cares what the shelf looks like.




Yes, technically it is only skin deep. But that skin is responsible for synthesizing pre d3, thermal regulation, neurological functioning, cellular functioning etc.. If you dehydrate the skin , it will not function like it needs too. Breaking the bonds in the skin which is responsible for d3, will decrease the bodies ability to actaully synthesis micronutrient. If you decrease hydration of shell and skin. The internal hydration must supplement the deficiency , taking away from vital internal needs of that hydration.. Now if you start messing with a tortoises ability to bind calcium... Well weak bone will be pronounced, weak bone leads to the ability of dehydrated keratin to readily deform underlying bone. As strong bone will help resist the mechanical stresses of dehydrated keratin. Weak bone will allow it to be readily deformed, and taking away a tortosies ability to synthesis the micronutrients, which will eventually lead to spongy non dense bone , which can and will contribute to pyramiding. (Theory)


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## glitch4200

Tom said:


> There is no one size-fits-all perfect answer for this. Every enclosure, home and situation is different. Every tortoise enclosure is a custom job. There are now a bevy of good products to use to accomplish the goals of correct parameters for any given species and size tortoise. Everyone must take what is available and adapt it, modify it and make it work for THEIR individual situation.
> 
> "Fool proof"? Sorry. Doesn't exist. Fools will always find a way to mess things up.
> 
> I have had good results using:
> 1. 65 watt regular flood bulbs for a basking area. Height of the bulb should be determined in each enclosure by the thermometer probe under the bulb or the infrared thermometer readings.
> 2. Regular 5000-6500 K florescent light tubes for illumination.
> 3. Arcadia 12% HO tubes for UV. Mounted approximately 20" high and on a timer for 4-5 hours a day, mid day. Again, mounting height should be determined by a UV meter in each individual enclosure.
> 4. CHEs set on thermostats to maintain ambient.
> 
> All of the above are used in closed chambers.
> 
> Here is this years growth experiment. It might be of interest to you:
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/2015-growth-experiment.119874/
> 
> 
> Question: You believe the humid hydrated methods to be good and even go so far as to promote them, so why are your young tortoises in an open topped table with humidity as low as 20%?




You are correct. Each habitat is custom to the variables present in the environment. But then why do i see majority of tortoise keepers use the same lighting scheme. This lighting scheme is 1x mercury vapor bulb on one side of the habitat and 1x Uvb strip lamp on one side of the habitat. Then they claim the rest of the habitat is the "cool" zone. How is that efficient? You confine the tortoise to the heat lamp and leave the rest of the habitat cooler and "not lit" with seeing light. I would have to say probably close to 85% of the habitats i see indoors have that said lighting scheme. The argument is that they need the "cool" zone. But to the tortoise he wants to be warm, he doesn't need a cool zone of half the habitat... 

When the sun rises and the entire area gets nice and warm. Their is no "cool zone". The only cool zones are hides, under brush, and moist cool microclimates in the soil during burrowing. This is what i mimic in my habitat. I keep the entire habitat warm, just like the wild. And i offer cool moist hides and moist microclimate for burrowing to escape that heat.. The tortoise does not need half the habitat cool. And that is the most widely used lighting scheme in keepers from much much much observation on facebook tortoise groups all over. 

My humidity drops insanely fast with the use of 2x high powered lamps to heat my open table top. As i will be doing an experiment to show the devistating effects of these lamps. I am going to perform a little experiment. I have a vivarium, that i am not using. I will be taking a basking lamp, moist substrate, a bowl of water, and many humidity gauges and temp gauges to show you how much water is being taken by these lamps in what time frame. I will wake up spray the habitats down using a full quart of water.. By 4 hours, the water has completely dissipated, and my once 65% humidity is now close to 25% to 30%. This is why i like to soak at least every other day and make sure they always have moist microclimate.
In the experiment, I will show the effects of different lamps over different amounts of time and how much water the consume over different amoutns of time. The amount of water absorbed by these lamps is unbelievable. Once i do this experiment it will be clear, their is a huge problem with these lamps and how they affect tortoises housed indoors.


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## glitch4200

Alaskamike said:


> @Anyfoot IMO bathing and spraying your torts is not a substitute for high humidity under lamps. It does not keep them humid, or the shell properly hydrated, as the moisture is wicked away rapidly if room humidity is 20-40%. This is easy to demonstrate. Spray down your table and torts and then an hour later put a humidity gauge in there at ground level. You'll see what I mean.
> 
> There is a difference in raising them with constant humid air at say *80%
> 
> To having an open table top indoors and making sure they have plenty of water and spraying them or their enclosure down several times a day.
> 
> I know some with open table tops do this and seem to think it is a substitute - does the same thing but I don't believe so.




Exactly, just because i soak and provide moist microclimates, does not create equalized relative humidity in the shell and skin of the proteins in our tortoises. You need sustained humidity to keep the keratin hydrated. My humidity is constantly being attacked from equalizing with surround relative humidity in my room. It is almost impossible to keep humidity from falling once you spray and soak the substrate down. The dissipation of the water is almost immediately noticeable. I try and spray at least 2x a day. But sometimes i am only able to get 1x in. And on occasion I am not able to spray it at all. And on the days I don't spray. I will easily find my humidity in the 30% range or lower. But make no mistake about it , my habitat is not a high humidity enviornment.


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## glitch4200

leigti said:


> When this thread started I thought you might be onto something. Maybe you were but now I'm not sure what direction you're going.




I am headed in a very similar direction. Even spacing my lamps out more. Changing the lamp holders to something more distributed, (wide dome holder), you still do not take away the facts of "unfiltered" infrared. No matter what you do except maybe use enclosed chambers, will you decrease the effects of unfiltered infrared. As enclosed chambers will allow you to not use as many high powered lamps that you need in an open table top, and you can stabilize the temps are humidity well in enclosed chambers. But the realistic facts of this are ... majority of people use open table tops, with powerful lamps to supplement heat and lighting. Majority of people are using low humid enviornments and set ups despite such positive outcome in enclosed chambers with high heat high humidity. My goal here has not changed. To prove that coconut oil has a place in tortoise keeping that is cheap, effective and beneficial to tortoise housed indoors under artificial lighting. 

The only real solution is filtering infrared with water so that the "unfiltered" infrared becomes "water filtered" infrared just like our sun. This will immediately halt the need for coconut oil outside maybe the antifungal and antibacterial properties of the oil and combating fungal and bacteral issues in the shell and skin of these torts.

The way i see it, an added measure to protecting against these lamps outside water filtration would be coconut oil, in combination of lots of soaking, lots of humidity and heat, lots of access to clean drinking water, low exposure to basking lamps (gradients only feasible in big sized enclosed chambers), and of course access to moist microclimate for burrowing. I do not see any other way other then not housing your tortoise indoors to escape the detrimental effects of these lamps. So until water filtered lamps are are around , coconut oil in my opinion still has a vital role in my husbandry practices. As the long exposure to lamps they are subjected to continues, so will my coconutting. As i feel they are being protected by the coconut oil no matter what you do, besides maybe completely revamping my habitat to an enclosed chamber and getting rid of the powerful lamps. But again it still doesnt take away the fact that all these lamps , cermaic emitters included severely dehydrate our tortoises .


----------



## Anyfoot

In my juvenile red enclosure. My humidity never drops below 90%. I don't spray some days in fear of it getting too moist. I use a 150watt CHE and its 16" away from the substrate. Temp is a gradual 90f to 80f across the enclosure. ( I have no basking spot for this species). If you use a hotter bulb further away you get a bigger more even spread of the heat, the extreme is the sun. I don't spray my actual tortoises on purpose. When they come out of there hides in a morning they have a dull Matt colour carapace due to dew simulation. I would imagine( correct me if I'm wrong) that for example adult sulcata hide away through the night naturally getting humid, then as the day passes they dry out, and so on and so on. IMO its natural for torts to be at there driest towards the end of the day. However species that live in high humidity like redfoots don't dry off as quick.
Juveniles are different, they hide away for fear of predators in mini humid climates IMO.
Also if a sully is sat on an incline of a hill in the wild for 4,5,6 hrs, and the sun is only beating down on 1 half of its carapace, is this sully forcing an uneven growth on itself for this period? I don't know. Just another mad thought I've had.


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## glitch4200

Exhibit A. 


This person is a prime example of how to not keep your tortoise. She posted on the tortoises keepers group on facebook this picture...

View attachment 140725


This is something extremely wrong here. I kindly pointed out that heat lamp is way to close to the tortoises shell. I was immediately told if he was hot he would move. Then I said that your thermally burning him having that lamp that close to the shell. I was immediately blocked and the picture was deleted. (but not before my screen shots)  

You can see what the lamp does to the tortoise shell extremely well here. Where you see the lamp positioned. You will notice how the scute positioned directly underneath the lamp has proliferated severely. It is severely deformed becuase of exposure to the lamp above. This tortoise has been subjected to this lighting scheme for a very long time according to her. As she said, "it's how I have always had it". 

You can see the direct damage it has caused to the tortoise. The shell proliferated like that to protect the underlying alpha Kerstin being subjected to intense localized heating. It is so bad that the entire scute is curling away from the middle. This is the mechanical stress that is readily deforming bone, and a direct correlation to Basking lamps and deformed beta Kerstin.


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## glitch4200




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## Anyfoot

glitch4200 said:


> View attachment 140728


It's sad to see that and that someone won't take on advice. People like this can't be helped. . So you are saying that the 2 scutes that have grown deformed are due to a heat spot in this area.


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## glitch4200

Anyfoot said:


> In my juvenile red enclosure. My humidity never drops below 90%. I don't spray some days in fear of it getting too moist. I use a 150watt CHE and its 16" away from the substrate. Temp is a gradual 90f to 80f across the enclosure. ( I have no basking spot for this species). If you use a hotter bulb further away you get a bigger more even spread of the heat, the extreme is the sun. I don't spray my actual tortoises on purpose. When they come out of there hides in a morning they have a dull Matt colour carapace due to dew simulation. I would imagine( correct me if I'm wrong) that for example adult sulcata hide away through the night naturally getting humid, then as the day passes they dry out, and so on and so on. IMO its natural for torts to be at there driest towards the end of the day. However species that live in high humidity like redfoots don't dry off as quick.
> Juveniles are different, they hide away for fear of predators in mini humid climates IMO.
> Also if a sully is sat on an incline of a hill in the wild for 4,5,6 hrs, and the sun is only beating down on 1 half of its carapace, is this sully forcing an uneven growth on itself for this period? I don't know. Just another mad thought I've had.



Your talking about the sun though. The same isn't going to dehydrate like unfiltered lamps will. 4 to 6 hours under the sun is not equivalent to 4 to 6 hours under artificial lamps. The amount of water taken from 4 to 6 hours under unfiltered lamps is going to be unbelievably extremely high compared to 4 to 6 hours under the sun. The sun is water filtered. So the ir-a doesn't absorb water in that part of the spectrum. 

Now... If you said that about an indoor grown tortoise.. Where half their body is subjected to dehydrating lamps for 4 to 6 hours whereas the other half is 'shaded', , just like the photo above I suspect we would see half the shell begin to proliferate heavily vs the unshaded half over a decent time exposed to lamps. Then technically it would be forcing uneven growth on itself. But usually the Basking zone is just big enough to cover the tortoise in its entirety. But just like this story I told above.. And this photo right here.. 


Shows direct correlation to Basking lamps creating deformed Keratin and bone. And it being a sole driver of pyramiding and Keratin dehydration and deformation. .


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## glitch4200

Anyfoot said:


> It's sad to see that and that someone won't take on advice. People like this can't be helped. . So you are saying that the 2 scutes that have grown deformed are due to a heat spot in this area.




Yes. Direct correlation. Dehydrated alpha Keratin from localized hot spots like the pictures above, create so much stress on alpha Keratin it has no choice but to proliferate SEVERLY. This constant need for warmth but the horrible location of the bulb has the tortoise stuck between a rock and a hard place. It needs the heat to survive but it's being burned really bad. So in order to stop the assault it creates it's only natural biological defensive barrier. Beta keratin proliferation.. This proliferation allows more distribution of heat (more surface area), and also guards the alpha Kerstin matrix which is the precursor of beta keratin. So if you destabilize the alpha Keratin matrix enough like the said picture the beta keratin can not be formed correctly either and all that mechanic stress is put into the bone underneathe and like shown above, the the shell has proliferated so much that it's now bending away from the light itself becuae it's getting so pyramided. so now you have 2 biological systems failing epically. All becuase of unfiltered lamps and as shown above hard headed individuals who can not clearly see the damage being done to their tortoise.


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## Anyfoot

Yes I agree the sun light is filtered through the air atmosphere. So the closer the heat to the tort the less filtered it is. We put bulbs close to torts to save money. This is why I asked if you could do an experiment with lots of smaller watt bulbs instead of 1 higher watt. I understand the expensive costs to do this. Does the owner of that tort have photos of the tort when a juvenile. I'm guessing you burnt your bridges with the owner. Lol.


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## glitch4200

Anyfoot said:


> Yes I agree the sun light is filtered through the air atmosphere. So the closer the heat to the tort the less filtered it is. We put bulbs close to torts to save money. This is why I asked if you could do an experiment with lots of smaller watt bulbs instead of 1 higher watt. I understand the expensive costs to do this. Does the owner of that tort have photos of the tort when a juvenile. I'm guessing you burnt your bridges with the owner. Lol.



No not less filtered. It's not filtered at all. No matter the distance or humidity. You would need almost a mile of water vapor or a sealed water filtered disk *  * to filter the lamp. 

Also I have tried to come up with a way to make a lamp that has multiple bulbs but have run into many issues. 

#1 being wiring. You need to parallel wire all the sockets together. Then fuse the wall wire so you don't blow all the lamps. (or else you need like 5 sockets available) 

#2. I can't find sockets that I can wire together at the wattage I need. 

#3. I can't find domes that would hold multiple sockets at once. 

#4. I would need to fabricate from scratch a whole new lighting system and wire set up. 

#5. My buddy and I have already filled out paper work for a provisional patent in the United States and Canada on our water filtered infrared adapter invention. So the need to fabricate and test a new lamp is not needed and will be a waste of my time.. We are in the prototyping phase and testing phase currently of the infrared filtration adapter with promising results. 

And lastly. No. She blocked me and deleted the thread immediately after I said those things. I was of course in the wrong according to her though.


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## Anyfoot

glitch4200 said:


> No not less filtered. It's not filtered at all. No matter the distance or humidity. You would need almost a mile of water vapor or a sealed water filtered disk *  * to filter the lamp.
> 
> Also I have tried to come up with a way to make a lamp that has multiple bulbs but have run into many issues.
> 
> #1 being wiring. You need to parallel wire all the sockets together. Then fuse the wall wire so you don't blow all the lamps. (or else you need like 5 sockets available)
> 
> #2. I can't find sockets that I can wire together at the wattage I need.
> 
> #3. I can't find domes that would hold multiple sockets at once.
> 
> #4. I would need to fabricate from scratch a whole new lighting system and wire set up.
> 
> #5. My buddy and I have already filled out paper work for a provisional patent in the United States and Canada on our water filtered infrared adapter invention. So the need to fabricate and test a new lamp is not needed and will be a waste of my time.. We are in the prototyping phase and testing phase currently of the infrared filtration adapter with promising results.
> 
> And lastly. No. She blocked me and deleted the thread immediately after I said those things. I was of course in the wrong according to her though.


That sounds more like it. You are in the early stages of developing a universal adapter to filter the light. Am I understanding that correctly?


----------



## Tom

leigti said:


> If the tortoise is getting very frequent soaks and sprays then humidity in the enclosure it's self wouldn't be necessary. But that is a lot of high maintenance that some of us don't have time to do.



I disagree completely. As Mike just stated 80% ambient humidity in a closed chamber produces VERY different growth results than daily soaks and frequent shell spraying in a drier enclosure. THIS experiment, I have done repeatedly.


----------



## Tom

glitch4200 said:


> I am not against temp gradients... I just feel 90% of people think one heat bulb and UVb lamp is effective at creating a gradient temp properly. I see it all the time on facebook groups in their habitat pics. The most widely used set up is the 2x bulb set up. 1x Mercury vapor bulb on one side of the habitat. And 1x uvb bulb close by to the heat lamp. Then they think the rest of the habitat must be the "cool" zone. So its left pretty dark and cool.
> 
> That is arrogant and wrong. So pretty much your limiting the tortoise to the basking lamp and uvb lamp for heating and seeing light and keeping the rest of the habitat cool and dark. This right here is the common set up around the world when housing tortoises indoors. I have probably told over 300 people to add a second heating element and spread out the Uvb light so the tortoise can roam the table and be warm and see all over.Instead of being confined to a corner of the habitat. My tortoises like to be warm. And through observation when i keep my ambient temps at 85 f. He will fall asleep anywhere. Whereas, before when only giving him a single basking lamp (very early on in his care before i knew better). He was confined to the basking lamp section almost all day.
> 
> I feel the whole gradient guideline is being done incorrectly all over. People are offering incorrect temp gradients. I see it all the time on facebook groups. And i have a picture to show you all that shows exactly what i am talking about.



The one bulb set up can and does work for most species in many situations. The bulb simulates a sunny patch in and otherwise "shaded" area. In the wild if the tortoise wants to warm up, it moves to a brightly lit sunny area. Once its temperature is where it needs to be, it retreats to a darker area in the shade. Having said that, adjustments will always have to be made depending on observation of the parameters in a set up like that, and observation of the tortoises kept in set ups like that.

The problem you are rightfully observing is when people ignore obvious signs that their temperatures are not adequate, or when they make stupid assumptions like the person with the star tortoise in your pic. "He will move if he gets too hot...", when he's 2" away from a desiccating bulb. This is one of those cases where things have to be customized not only for a species, but for each individual within a species. Any tortoise of any species that sits under its basking bulb for most of a day is telling the keeper that the ambient temps are TOO LOW. Likewise a tortoise that is always on the cool side is telling the keeper that either ambient is too high, or that possibly a coil bulb is burning their eyes over on the other side of the enclosure. The star tortoise in the pic should have a closed chamber with ambient temps in the 80s or even low 90s and that basking bulb needs to be significantly higher. That same set up might suit a russian perfectly fine though, if ambient temps are in the 70's and if basking temps at tortoise carapace height are 95ish. I suspect in the example depicted that basking temps are MUCH too high with that lamp placed so low. Adding a CHE over the middle of the enclosure, or adding another basking bulb at the correct-for-thespecies-and-individual-enclosure height, will usually solve this problem. That is why in so many of my threads I emphasize know "your four temperatures" and "making adjustments where needed", and "observing your tortoises behavior".

You are absolutely correct in your assertion that simply throwing an MVB up over one end of the enclosure and calling it "good" is NOT necessarily going to be adequate. In many cases it will NOT be adequate in any normal household because ambients in an open table will be too low for most species, but especially tropical species like stars, sulcatas and leopards. The low ambient will cause excessive basking and carapace desiccation, which is just one reason why I'm always hounding people to use a CLOSED CHAMBER. Closed chamber make it easy to keep ambient temps higher, and they prevent the need for excessive basking under hot desiccating bulbs.

I, however, think you are wrong in your assertion that this single bulb set up can never work and is always wrong. Many times it works very well in the right house with the right species. It can work very well for most Testudo species that need a lower ambient.

It is disturbing to me that the owner of the star tortoise in that picture believes she has a "Happy Boy"... And this demonstrates poignantly that many people are not very adept at observing and understanding tortoise behavior.


----------



## Alaskamike

The above example of the Star Tortoise and the response of both the individual and Glitch being banned for questioning the care is why I don't participate in those facebook groups, or even on any other tortoise forum. I glad you do Glitch, I just do not have the patience for it. Its reminds me of the talk I had with a manager at a pet store about 10 sulcata babies, in a small aquarium, under a coil bulb, on rabbit pellets, no water dish eating lettuce (which is all they fed them - because "It hydrates them, they don't need water") 
- I mentioned the small space for them, the dryness of the pellets, and no place to get away from the bulb, how cold the air conditioned store was at night, He argued it was only "temporary " since he sold them fast . I told him the buyers might think this was a good way to raise them by example 
- I asked him if he knew about the closed chamber method to reduce shell pryamiding and damage, he said they are desert species, in no way could he recommend high humidity as it would make them sick. I thought what @Tom might say to him - but thought better of it LOL 
- I mentioned the Tortoise Forum, that it might be very helpful to new owners to have a place to learn the latest "best care" methods of husbandry and he said he was not going to advertise my forum for me ( _my forum?_) . I tried to explain it is a open forum, and not a for profit thing.... he didn't care.

I gave up. 

We certainly have some debate here and a healthy exchange of challenges and ideas back and forth. I do like that obviously, as I participate. But rarely is it just ignorant exchanges with no room for reason. 

The explanation of hydration - internal and external related to the bio-chemistry of keratin growth and proliferation is really good stuff to ponder. The more I read and follow this thread , the more I believe I'm learning. You don't _have_ to understand exactly what is happening and why to raise healthy babies, just follow best care practices and it will work - but I like to know the WHY also. Just the way my mind works I guess.
Don't give up Glitch.... 
...some tortoise, somewhere, would thank you if they could


----------



## Kelly71

*Hi All,
Well I have to say I put the oil on Sunny after his bath today. I have to admit I was a little
afraid to do it? lol All I had to do was put my finger on the very top and take my finger
away and it was oil? Now keep in mind Sunny's shell in my looks was not to bad, it did look
maybe a little dry but I have seen worse. He did NOT like me putting it on and tried to run
away? I was I thought very soft. I put on little bc I did not know what it was going to do? I 
saw right away his shell looked better and here I thought it was pretty good? lol Now keep in
mind I did use very little but enough that I saw a difference. I also did not leave it on very
long before rubbing it off with a very soft micro fiber cotton cloth. It did seem to soak in
pretty fast I thought. I thought also his little head looked dry so with even less on my finger
just rubbed on top of his very head where his coloured scales are? That I saw also a big
difference. And for some funny reason he likes his head rubbed? lol Sorry I will post pics
later of before and after, my husband went to bed and has them on his phone? I just could 
not wait to post what I saw? lol One other thing, Sunny has those funny swirls and bubble
marks on the middle of this scales on his shell, I wonder....will the oil make those go away
or get better? I dont care about them but know one seems to really know for sure what those
are? It will be interesting to see what happens with those and the oil? Thanks And I will have
those pics tomorrow for sure, you guys can tell me if you see a diff.?
P.S. On a side note I cried when I saw the pics of that tort pics above 
near that light? Who on earth would think that is ok? And I see the person
posted " One Happy Boy" or something like that? What the hell? :O(*


----------



## Alaskamike

Kelly71 said:


> *Hi All,
> Well I have to say I put the oil on Sunny after his bath today. I have to admit I was a little
> afraid to do it? lol All I had to do was put my finger on the very top and take my finger
> away and it was oil? Now keep in mind Sunny's shell in my looks was not to bad, it did look
> maybe a little dry but I have seen worse. He did NOT like me putting it on and tried to run
> away? I was I thought very soft. I put on little bc I did not know what it was going to do? I
> saw right away his shell looked better and here I thought it was pretty good? lol Now keep in
> mind I did use very little but enough that I saw a difference. I also did not leave it on very
> long before rubbing it off with a very soft micro fiber cotton cloth. It did seem to soak in
> pretty fast I thought. I thought also his little head looked dry so with even less on my finger
> just rubbed on top of his very head where his coloured scales are? That I saw also a big
> difference. And for some funny reason he likes his head rubbed? lol Sorry I will post pics
> later of before and after, my husband went to bed and has them on his phone? I just could
> not wait to post what I saw? lol One other thing, Sunny has those funny swirls and bubble
> marks on the middle of this scales on his shell, I wonder....will the oil make those go away
> or get better? I dont care about them but know one seems to really know for sure what those
> are? It will be interesting to see what happens with those and the oil? Thanks And I will have
> those pics tomorrow for sure, you guys can tell me if you see a diff.?
> P.S. On a side note I cried when I saw the pics of that tort pics above
> near that light? Who on earth would think that is ok? And I see the person
> posted " One Happy Boy" or something like that? What the hell? :O(*


Kelly,
When I use the oil I just wipe it on with two fingers and make sure it gets well distributed into all the ridges and lines of my sulcatas caprice. I don't worry about the amount too much. I cover the plastron also, as it is wet in his enclosure much of the time. In the rainy season here now, and in his cave it is often wet, so I hope the EVCO will protect his plastron from mold , fungus, etc. Once he is well covered I just wipe him gently with a cloth and call it good. I don't try to wipe it off. Becasue mie are raised outdoors in high humidity, I do it about once a week. If I was rasig mie idoors, underlamps, I woud be doing it 3x/week.

The positive effects of it are not seen in an immediate change - although it does make his shell look shiny, I don't care about that, it cannot be seen how it helps until you've done it over time. 

I would be interested to see photos of your tort now, as well as a description of your set up. If you decide to do this on a regular basis it will take months to see if it makes a difference the way the shell grows. From what I know about the EVCO there is nothing in it that can harm your tortoise, so nothing to be afraid of. If I thought for a minute that EVCO could hurt my babies, I would not use it.at all.


----------



## Kelly71

*Hi All,
So here are the pics of before and after? lol And to be honest I cant really tell
in the pics? Dont forget I just bathed him? I will do him better next time time. lol
His shell really I dont find to dry but it did look pretty good after? lol And on a side
note when I looked at the pics I did also notice that those swirly / bubble lines
in the middle of his scales look like they have started to go away? Here is a pic
that I took a couple of weeks ago so you can see the diff.? lol Thanks*


----------



## Kelly71




----------



## Kelly71




----------



## Kelly71




----------



## Kelly71

*Hi All,
So before is with lettuce and after he has nothing? Thanks*


----------



## Alaskamike

Kelly71 said:


> *Hi All,
> So before is with lettuce and after he has nothing? Thanks*


Kelly. 
You will not see a difference in the shell from one application. The effect is seen in growth. Growth takes time. 

Your tortoise shell looks as though the scutes are depressed lower than the growth lines. I would be interested in your set up - lights - food etc.


----------



## lkaseburg

What a wonderful and informative post. Thank you, I have learned so much!


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## glitch4200

Anyfoot said:


> That sounds more like it. You are in the early stages of developing a universal adapter to filter the light. Am I understanding that correctly?



Yes. That would be correct. IF we successfully make it cheap enough for all keepers to use .. It would be golden. I am in communications with Dr. Frances Baines who runs the www.uvguide.uk website about this too. She is very excited. As am i. To get her approval or support of such a thing would be a big deal to me. Things are moving along quite nicely. But if we achieve this . The needs for coconut oil in the way i have been using it will not l


----------



## Anyfoot

glitch4200 said:


> Yes. That would be correct. IF we successfully make it cheap enough for all keepers to use .. It would be golden. I am in communications with Dr. Frances Baines who runs the www.uvguide.uk website about this too. She is very excited. As am i. To get her approval or support of such a thing would be a big deal to me. Things are moving along quite nicely. But if we achieve this . The needs for coconut oil in the way i have been using it will not l


Can't wait to see your invention. Exciting stuff. How long will it be before you know if your pending patent will be granted or not. Have you filed for worldwide or just North America patent. (I use the word JUST lightly)lol


----------



## glitch4200

Anyfoot said:


> Can't wait to see your invention. Exciting stuff. How long will it be before you know if your pending patent will be granted or not. Have you filed for worldwide or just North America patent. (I use the word JUST lightly)lol


 
This is the awesome part.. My partner lives in Canada. I live in the United States. As I have been told. Canadian patent is good internationally. And United States Patent is good only for the United states. I only get 12 months from the initial provisional patent pending filing until you must submit your finalized version so you can recieve a patent pending #. 

We are waiting to turn in the provisional patent here in the US. And then he will file in Canada. But please I hope no one thinks I am joking. Because it's going to happen. This will help so many reptiles.


----------



## Anyfoot

glitch4200 said:


> This is the awesome part.. My partner lives in Canada. I live in the United States. As I have been told. Canadian patent is good internationally. And United States Patent is good only for the United states. I only get 12 months from the initial provisional patent pending filing until you must submit your finalized version so you can recieve a patent pending #.
> 
> We are waiting to turn in the provisional patent here in the US. And then he will file in Canada. But please I hope no one thinks I am joking. Because it's going to happen. This will help so many reptiles.


I'm not laughing and listening to you with seriousness. I was lead to believe that north america and Canada came under the same patent laws. To patent for Europe will cost a lot more than for America. Attack your home market 1st. At the end of the day you will get some countries that copy your idea, for you to follow a law suit would cost a fortune. They know that. For you its about making a full proof product at a fair price. You can't sell something for $30 then when you get challenged, all of a sudden sell at $20. This will be frowned on. Dont be greedy from day 1 and if the product proves its worth you will succeed. You need a brand name that is catchy and all will remember. When will the product be ready to trial.


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## Alaskamike

I hope this works out well for you. So many inventions start out just this way. An individual gets frustrated , sees a need for something new - or a change and goes about figuring out something better. 
Good luck


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## glitch4200

*UPDATE* So we are getting close to about 11 months since I started applying the coconut oil to my male Russian tortoise Nibbles. And here are pictures as of this week of both my male and female russian. I also got a new camera so the pictures are going to be better quality. My female russian Nappebbles is going on 8 months of consistent applications of EVCO. Both get the oil applied up to 4x a week. I have to say the average amount of applications over the year have been 3 applications a week. It seems to be the best amount in my opinion for multiple reasons, ill avoid getting into much detail. My fiance just had a baby boy last Wednesday, and I am on baby watch currently. This camera though makes it much clearer to see my tortoises shell and the effects this oil has had on it. (only have seen postive effects).

DSC_0026.JPG
DSC_0027.JPG
DSC_0017.JPG
DSC_0032.JPG


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## glitch4200

Napebbles Update*

Sorry it is not letting me load full image thumbnails.
She is going on 8 months of applications. You can see much she has grow in the last 8 months with me. And despite my subpar habitat set up and low humidity enviornment in a open table top, I am still achieving smooth growth.


----------



## Anyfoot

glitch4200 said:


> Napebbles Update*
> 
> Sorry it is not letting me load full image thumbnails.
> She is going on 8 months of applications. You can see much she has grow in the last 8 months with me. And despite my subpar habitat set up and low humidity enviornment in a open table top, I am still achieving smooth growth.


Your tort looks nice, and congratulations on your baby boy.


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## stojanovski92113

Yes!! Congratulations!! Those pics of your tort really are nice!!


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## glitch4200

So I have been meticulously trying to learn some really in depth stuff on the biology and workings of our shelled friends. It has actually been quite fun learning this stuff and how they work. Each time i do this i come closer to figuring out if coconut oil is really helping and doing what i have claimed it can do.

According to the Journal of Morphology 265-52-69(2005)
Reserach Article: "Proliferation in the Epidermis of Chelonian and Growth of Horny Scutes" By: Lorenzo Alibardi

I learned a bunch of stuff. I took some snap shots of some important pages i liked. 
Here is a detailed description of a scute broken down, by far the most detailed i have found yet.





This picture shows what the illustration is saying. 



Just a few more... this helped me ask questions of what i am doing to this cycle of renewal in the keratin itself at this level. How does introducing an acidic enviornment change this cycle of beta keratin proliferation?



My biggest question after reading this.. How does non hibernation affect a tortoise who is exposed to artificial lighting constantly and kept awake constantly?... It seems that not allowing the cells to rest come with its own risk in itself. You will get constant proliferation with no stopping/resting periods, this will obviously require much more energy and nutrients to support the cellular function of this system, but if this process is never stopped in a non hibernated tortoise and you combine this with indoor housing with artificial lighting , i can see a big problem brewing with the equalibrium of the proteins.




Another big question is that since i keep my tortoise awake and it does not experience any resting periods, how does this effect the response to unfiltered lamps by itself? If i apply the coconut oil up too 4x a week.. Essentially i am interfering with some part of this cycle. The fact that coconut oil has a low pH, and that it biochemically reacts with the proteins, beta keratin is grow in a basic environment and the introduction of an acidic environement should have some influence on its proliferation.. The way i see it .. The fact i dont hibernate my tortoise and allow its shell to rest, the addition of coconut oil possibly inhibiting the process of beta keratin proliferation could yield benefit in itself to slow the over process of proliferating beta keratin just by inhibiting it by its pH factor. This is still not taking in account other aweosome benefits i have yet to touch on...

Any thoughts anyone?

Now back to psych class..


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## Alaskamike

Nice info Glitch 
Now we are really getting into the weeds of bio- chemistry. In natural , even adaptation to periods of depervation is adapted to, and could contribute to health. In human health there is good indication that occasional fasting with good water intake clears out toxins that can build up in the system. Our ancient ancestors undoubtably had lean food periods. 
We hobbiests insure well rounded , appropriate food supplies all the time. Not that starving our charges is a good thing , but this does not duplicate nature. 

Many species spend a great deal of time in deep shade or underground. But we provide 8-12 hours of lamp UV daily. Or hours a day of outside sunlight. 

In nature some years entire baby populations are wiped out , in good years as little as 5% or less will make it to adolescence. When good breeders have clutches , frequently 100% survive and thrive. But this also means the principle nature uses to eliminate weak genetics from being passed on ( only the strong survive) is thwarted. 

It's always a balancing act. I know the deeper science of tortoise biology might not interest most hobbiests. But it is fascinating to me. 

Glad you are sharing.


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## glitch4200

Close to a year update. Nibbles 







Close to 10 months. Napebbles


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## glitch4200

Napebbles. Almost 10 months of applications. 







Nibbles. Almost a year of applications.


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## LibbyCecil

Looks beautiful


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## TexTorts

I have a 1 year old Sulcata that I rescued from an environment living in habitat with other reptiles (adult bearded dragon) whose skin, due to to severe dehydration, was dry, flaking off and had a small puncture wound. We have given him several daily soaks for months now and saw alot of improvement in overall hydration and health. He is now a strong and healthy survivor. BUT-- something was missing. He still had a very "old man" appearance due to rough start.
After much research on our own and reading on the forum- we purchased organic, extra virgin cold pressed coconut oil. Once a week, I put approximately 1/2 teaspoon in a warm, extra soak at night before he "cubbies up" for the night. The marked improvement in his overall appearance and his skin, especially on his head, is amazing. His skin looks and feels so much more supple (as far as tortoises can). I do this at night, when the UV lights will be going off so that he has time to absorb without the possibility of harm to him having oil on under lights/heat. I would recommend this if these are your issues. And, additionally- He is quite the handsome fellow now!

On a side note- I agree with the above statement! We own a massage therapy studio- Our 6 Sulcatas absolutely LOVE massage! Never underestimate the power of Touch!


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## TexTorts

glitch4200 said:


> Napebbles. Almost 10 months of applications.
> View attachment 150270
> 
> View attachment 150271
> 
> View attachment 150272
> 
> 
> Nibbles. Almost a year of applications.
> View attachment 150273
> 
> View attachment 150274
> 
> View attachment 150275




Very Handsome !!


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## glitch4200

Thank you all for a year of conversation about the debatable topic of coconut oil.. We have officially past 1 year of consistent applications of coconut oil. Applied up to 4x a week for the last year straight minus a few weeks of 'drying time'. I would like to thank everyone who has believed in me through out this adventure. I have some really really exciting news. And a very big update coming soon outlining the last year of put together information on coconut oil applications with my tortoises.


----------



## AnimalLady

You know, I made a comment on a FB page about me applying coconut oil to my torts shell. I was attacked and some of them even said I was going to cause SHELL ROT! Looking at this thread, I think noooooot! I will continue to apply the coconut oil because I think it is beneficial for his dried out shell!


----------



## glitch4200

AnimalLady said:


> You know, I made a comment on a FB page about me applying coconut oil to my torts shell. I was attacked and some of them even said I was going to cause SHELL ROT! Looking at this thread, I think noooooot! I will continue to apply the coconut oil because I think it is beneficial for his dried out shell!



Please join my group on Facebook. My group name is called Tortoise Love. As of today I have been kicked and banned from 10 tortoise groups on Facebook. 

All these groups have over 1.5k members and I was kicked and banned because of my explanation of coconut oil and it's use in tortoises. The admins of every group I was banned from could not handle the thought of new ideas being talked about in their groups. I fought and fought and fought day after day after day. Listening to the the bull crap excusespeople came up with to tell m coconutting my tortoises are going to cause irreversible harm. But when I pressed the to give me the science behind your opinions of this so called harm. They said I was wrong, provided no science or evidence that they were right and then kicked me out of the group in frustration because I would rape their walls with science from academic sources on the issue, showing that they were not correct. 

This became worse when these admins who are on control of such groups advocates the use of dry habitats with no humidity. Very little soaking. And crap husbandry. Those groups who were the farthest from raising healthiest tortoises kicked me the fastest. Exp when I mentioned how all tortoises need humidity and microclimate. Expecially under artificial lighting, I have lost count how many group admins who broadcast a crap care sheet for their tortoise peeps in majority of species.. And God forbid you question them.... 

When you question these admins in theses Facebook groups, the second it becomes a debate you get kicked and banned. Either conform or goodbye. 

Tortoise Keepers, Tortoise Buddies and my group Tortoise Love are the only ones I can handle anymore. I was apart of 20 plus groups at one point. And was active in majority of them. Within a year I was banned from half of them. The biggest ones too. A few I can be sure it was because I was rude as hell at the blatant incorrect husbandry being shoved down people's throats. I have a few in mind I won't name. TpG *cough*. That I hate with a fiery passion. Because not one person can say one thing that is not what the admin feels is correct. Or they kick and ban you.. If you look at the "rules" it's 2 pages long.. This is how and why tortoises keepers are so damn confused! The spread of incorrect misinformation that is unscientificly justified is rampant and when someone who might have some knowledge in the area try to defend their point. They get silenced. I have been silenced so many times from deleted posts, to getting kicked and banned, to having Peta, and every animal organization threatened to be called on me from doing 'animal experimentation'. The list is pretty big. 

You brought up a very sensitive subject here for me. I loathe the fact these groups have so much pull. And the torts are suffering. Big time. And it's so simple. Why can't you understand that a basking lamp dehydrates the environment and that you need the extra moisture to counteract the basking lamp or else your tortoise will sustain periods of extreme dehydrated conditions never naturally being exposed to in the wild.


----------



## Alaskamike

You have more patience with egotistical ignorance than I my friend. 

Disagree , debate , even pontificate if it trips your trigger - but back up what you say with science or experience , preferably both. 

Here on TF we often have disagreements , but it is most often explained with the whys. People take the time and effort to back up their advice with appropriate justification. 

I don't care for Facebook , or the groups there. But that's just me. 

Looking forward for more info from you , this journey with EVCO has been most interesting.


----------



## AnimalLady

glitch4200 said:


> Please join my group on Facebook. My group name is called Tortoise Love. As of today I have been kicked and banned from 10 tortoise groups on Facebook.
> 
> All these groups have over 1.5k members and I was kicked and banned because of my explanation of coconut oil and it's use in tortoises. The admins of every group I was banned from could not handle the thought of new ideas being talked about in their groups. I fought and fought and fought day after day after day. Listening to the the bull crap excusespeople came up with to tell m coconutting my tortoises are going to cause irreversible harm. But when I pressed the to give me the science behind your opinions of this so called harm. They said I was wrong, provided no science or evidence that they were right and then kicked me out of the group in frustration because I would rape their walls with science from academic sources on the issue, showing that they were not correct.
> 
> This became worse when these admins who are on control of such groups advocates the use of dry habitats with no humidity. Very little soaking. And crap husbandry. Those groups who were the farthest from raising healthiest tortoises kicked me the fastest. Exp when I mentioned how all tortoises need humidity and microclimate. Expecially under artificial lighting, I have lost count how many group admins who broadcast a crap care sheet for their tortoise peeps in majority of species.. And God forbid you question them....
> 
> When you question these admins in theses Facebook groups, the second it becomes a debate you get kicked and banned. Either conform or goodbye.
> 
> Tortoise Keepers, Tortoise Buddies and my group Tortoise Love are the only ones I can handle anymore. I was apart of 20 plus groups at one point. And was active in majority of them. Within a year I was banned from half of them. The biggest ones too. A few I can be sure it was because I was rude as hell at the blatant incorrect husbandry being shoved down people's throats. I have a few in mind I won't name. TpG *cough*. That I hate with a fiery passion. Because not one person can say one thing that is not what the admin feels is correct. Or they kick and ban you.. If you look at the "rules" it's 2 pages long.. This is how and why tortoises keepers are so damn confused! The spread of incorrect misinformation that is unscientificly justified is rampant and when someone who might have some knowledge in the area try to defend their point. They get silenced. I have been silenced so many times from deleted posts, to getting kicked and banned, to having Peta, and every animal organization threatened to be called on me from doing 'animal experimentation'. The list is pretty big.
> 
> You brought up a very sensitive subject here for me. I loathe the fact these groups have so much pull. And the torts are suffering. Big time. And it's so simple. Why can't you understand that a basking lamp dehydrates the environment and that you need the extra moisture to counteract the basking lamp or else your tortoise will sustain periods of extreme dehydrated conditions never naturally being exposed to in the wild.


I see, very sensitive! It's not really in my nature to argue, so when I got btched at for using it I just didn't respond, it probably would have been an entire group against me. I also haven't been a tort mom for long, and I don't carry the information and proof you carry so my argument wouldn't have even been valid. I am a strong believer in coconut oil for many things, I really love the stuff. 
Anywho, I'll go join your FB group now


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## Cowboy_Ken

For my own, personal reasons, I don't participate on The Facebook. The TortoiseForum and a social driving group are the extant of my online social interaction. I'm happy that way. That and I don't live in town but instead live out in the "boonies" as has been said. I'm guessing it's all somehow related. And I actually like social interaction.


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## glitch4200

*Pic Update on Nibbles* 1 year and 1 month. Nibbles has recieved up to 4x applications a week consistently in this time frame minus a couple times of allowing the oil to fully dry out. His diet consists store bought greens. And assortment of dried flowers,grasses and weeds as a topper. Calcium topping about 2x a week. Temps 85f ambient 95f basking. Cool zone (in hides) 75f. Humidity levels: relative habitat level about 30% and 40% though I try to keep it at 60% sustained but it is exceedingly hard to do so because of the unfiltered basking lamps.. The humid hide levels close to 75% humidity although can be as low as 40% when the habitat dries out.


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## AnimalLady

Do you put the oil ONLY on the shell? In the last pic his head looks a bit shiny?


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## glitch4200

*11.5 months NaPebble Update* 
She has almost reached a year of applications as well. She has had explosive growth in the year I have had her. Gaining over 5.2 Oz in weight and a tad over in inch in length in just a year. You can see how the alpha keratin is super healthy and this healthy matrix has allowed the shell to expand with the bone with little restriction. Leading to overall smooth growth. I think a leading problem with fast growth in tortoises is the shell is not mechanically able to handle the expansion of the bone unless the shell structure is super hydrated and favored for quick expansion. 
She follows same eating regiment and both nibble and napebbles gets soaked between 2x and 6x a week. 

Essentially my theory of the coconut oil acting as a booster for this matrix, can be seen in observation with her growth. As the healthy alpha keratin grows it Wil differentiate into healthy beta keratin but that all rely on a healthy alpha keratin matrix. If the matrix is denurtered by unfiltered lamps which I have pointed out, the stress gene in the protein box as they call it will make the scute proliferate abnormally to protect that alpha keratin matrix. This enhances that mechanical pressure putting lots of strain on the bone.


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## glitch4200

AnimalLady said:


> Do you put the oil ONLY on the shell? In the last pic his head looks a bit shiny?



Shell and skin. I have found since applying to the skin, it has benefited as much as the shell in my. Opinion. The skin is made of the same thing as the shell. But different layering. Alpha keratin is on top of the basal layer (blood) and it is prone to denurtering from the unfiltered basking lamps if not more so then the scutes. The skin doesn't have much beta keratin to guard against those effects like the shell does. The shell is very good at protecting that alpha keratin that covers the entire tortoise.


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## AnimalLady

glitch4200 said:


> Shell and skin. I have found since applying to the skin, it has benefited as much as the shell in my. Opinion. The skin is made of the same thing as the shell. But different layering. Alpha keratin is on top of the basal layer (blood) and it is prone to denurtering from the unfiltered basking lamps if not more so then the scutes. The skin doesn't have much beta keratin to guard against those effects like the shell does. The shell is very good at protecting that alpha keratin that covers the entire tortoise.


Do you still soak? Very interesting.


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## glitch4200

AnimalLady said:


> Do you still soak? Very interesting.



Oh hell ya. I have been exceedingly busy with life but I try to soak them every single day for as long as they want. Some days it's 5 seconds and some days it 2 plus hours of soak time... It is up to them. They choose. They are pretty good about it too. I don't particularly feel they are stressed in the least bit. When I put them in and they jump right out I'll give it one more go before I put them back to chill for the day. N


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## Alaskamike

Good photos. I have been using the EVCO since following this thread just not as often. Since my torts are outside and w/o lamps. But I do see the efficacy in shell protection from desiccation. We are coming into our dry season here in South Florida so I will step up use. 

It is still seen in the general community here as either unnatural , unnecessary, or even harmful. But in your thread here I believe all these issues have been well answered. 

When I see tortoises with very dried out caprice and open top tables I frequently suggest both closed chambers and EVCO. But I include the caveat that this is still debatable and refer them to this thread to make up their own mind. 
Anything even the slightest bit new or different than what " experts" do or suggest often is marginalized until / unless it becomes standard practice. But you've seen this here and in other groups where you've tried to explain EVCO. 

This is one of my favorite threads ; intelligent, thorough, and detailed. Bravo.


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## Prairie Mom

I agree with the positive comments made about this thread. I couldn't comment about how coconut oil effects heat retention etc, because I simply have no knowledge or experience with this, and think it is appropriately discussed in the debatable category. But this thread has convinced me that coconut oil can be an effective tool in tortoise husbandry. I finally started to use it toward the end of this summer. I use it much more lightly than the photos you display, but now believe it is necessary for me as the tortoise and I battle the constant drying winds in my climate and it even helps me to remove small hard water stains that develop from time to time. I'm glad its use was brought to my attention here.


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## Big Charlie

glitch4200 said:


> *11.5 months NaPebble Update*
> She has almost reached a year of applications as well. She has had explosive growth in the year I have had her. Gaining over 5.2 Oz in weight and a tad over in inch in length in just a year. You can see how the alpha keratin is super healthy and this healthy matrix has allowed the shell to expand with the bone with little restriction. Leading to overall smooth growth. I think a leading problem with fast growth in tortoises is the shell is not mechanically able to handle the expansion of the bone unless the shell structure is super hydrated and favored for quick expansion.
> She follows same eating regiment and both nibble and napebbles gets soaked between 2x and 6x a week.
> 
> Essentially my theory of the coconut oil acting as a booster for this matrix, can be seen in observation with her growth. As the healthy alpha keratin grows it Wil differentiate into healthy beta keratin but that all rely on a healthy alpha keratin matrix. If the matrix is denurtered by unfiltered lamps which I have pointed out, the stress gene in the protein box as they call it will make the scute proliferate abnormally to protect that alpha keratin matrix. This enhances that mechanical pressure putting lots of strain on the bone.
> View attachment 156141
> 
> View attachment 156142
> 
> View attachment 156143
> 
> View attachment 156144
> 
> View attachment 156146
> 
> View attachment 156145
> 
> View attachment 156147


I never thought of it until you mentioned the quick expansion. Like pyramiding is similar to stretch marks in humans - growing faster inside than the outside can keep up with.


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## glitch4200

Big Charlie said:


> I never thought of it until you mentioned the quick expansion. Like pyramiding is similar to stretch marks in humans - growing faster inside than the outside can keep up with.




Exactly. Of course their are many variables that promote or impede pyramiding. But I think proper scute hydration highly helps in preventing pyramiding. A factor commonly overlooked when people talk about pyramiding and torts. Everyone is so focused on diet and uvb absorption they are missing the last crucial piece to the puzzle.. Alpha and beta keratin hydration and care. If you think about it. The entire tortoise is made strictly from these proteins minus bone and organs. Like our skin this keratin can act as an expander or a restricter. Like stretch marks. Except Kerstin doesn't stretch it bunches up and creates mechanicals stresses. At least that is my thought on it.


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## glitch4200

One thing I have noticed in the last year. Is the oil seems to be decomposing faster on the keratin then when I first started like before the oil would last about 4 days of noticeable application. Now it seems after 2 days it's completely gone. Like today I coconutted my female napebbles and by the end of the day majority of it seemed to be gone. Still obviously their but much of it has disappeared. The pic of her shows how she isn't that shiny. I applied earlier that day.. 

Vs.. 

Nibbles I applied early that day and he was still pretty coconutted up by night time.

I am starting to think since napebbles is growing rapidly that her shell is interacting with the oil more as it expands? Or maybe the environment of the shell like it's pH, has changed and is effecting the way the oil decomposes? But I have been noticing it more and more as time has gone on. 

Another thing I have noticed. Applying to the skin and legs has dramatically increased color in the scutes, which use to be a more dull color with dry spots along the legs are gone now. the nails on the legs which use to be cracked and dry looking are no longer cracked and seem very hydrated now more pliable I guess you could say? 

Just some things I have noticed.


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## glitch4200

Taken from a research article in the journal of cosmetic science. 

The article is called : Effect of mineral oil, sunflower oil, and coconut oil on 
prevention of hair damage 
AARTI S. RELE and R. B. MOHILE, Research and Development 
Department, Nature Care Division, Marico Industries Ltd., 
MumbaL India. 
Accepted for publication April 29, 2002,

Their is a reason coconut oil is very good at interacting with the alpha and beta Kerstin proteins that make up a tortoises shell ans skin. 

Let me quote my source. 
First understand our hair is made of alpha Kerstin. The shell is made out of both alpha and beta keratin. Their is a reason for coconut oil ability to penetrate hair which is made out of the similar protein and follows a very similar interaction with said protein. 

"This difference in results could arise from the composition of each of these oils. Coconut oil, being a 
triglyceride of lauric acid (principal fatty acid), has a high affinity for hair proteins and, because of its low 
molecular weight and straight linear chain, is able to penetrate inside the hair shaft. Mineral oil, being a 
hydrocarbon, has no affinity for proteins and therefore is not able to penetrate and yield better results. In 
the case of sunflower oil, although it is a triglyceride of linoleic acid, because of its bulky structure due to 
the presence of double bonds, it does not penetrate the fiber, consequently resulting in no favorable impact 
on protein loss."

The above description offers insight into coconut oils ability to be the best at protein interaction with the proteins we are dealing with in our tortoises. No other oil is effective at interacting then this oil. Thus, giving this oil an edge over almost every other oil in my opinion and according to what I have read . Mineral oil doesn't work like coconut oil, most natural oils are double bonded and have a hard time interacting with certain proteins like Kerstin, luckily coconut oil is not one of them.


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## glitch4200

On the point of lauric acid. I had the pleasure of getting into a huge debate on Facebook tortoise group about the antimicrobial and antifungal properties of coconut oil. 

The argument was that unless the coconut oil is digested into monolauric acid which has shown to be a very excellent antimicrobial and antifungal inside the body. Her argument was that coconut oil offered 0 protection from any pathogens or bacteria/fungal growth. And thst topical application of this oil had absolutely no benefits like I claimed it did. 

So of course I dug through some stuff to make as plain and simple for her. Coconut oil has concentration levels of lauric acid up to around 40% according to some articles I read with the oil I am using. Lauric acid has been researched as a potential antimicrobial and antifungal for a very long time. And has been proven to be very effective against many strains of bacteria and fungus and live virus. Here is the reason in 2 pictures. 





If you read those 2x pics, it clicks.. Being almost 98 saturated fats. In which almost 40% is a potent lauric acid a potent antimicrobial and antifungal, attaches itself by inserting right into the membrane disrupting cell function effectively killing the invasive pathogen. To me this is extremely clear. And the supporting documents behind these concepts are pretty darn cemented. 

This to me, in my opinion gives this oil the ability to be used as a possible medical treatment for topical fungus in tortoises and reptiles, to help rid of shell rot without using potent chemicals. Or even better as a Frontline prevention to fungus and shell rot? Thoughts on that?


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## Alaskamike

Well...
This anti fungal / anti bacterial quality of Lauric acid is the primary reason I apply EVCO to my tortoises shells , even though they do not live under desiccating heat lamps - but outdoors. 

Here in south Florida we lose our wonderful high humidity about 4 months of the year. I belive it helps then keeping the caprice from getting too dry.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

Wow, you guys. I have been away for awhile - you know, life happens - and I come back and there are 25! pages of dialogue on this. I will have to sit down and read but for now I will say, yay, yes, I do love me my extra virgin, organic coconut oil. It is the best, for so many reasons. All hail the coconut and its oil!


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## Eggtort

When I first got my Russian tort, she looked really dry. She wasn't treated well at the start of her life, so when I got her I changed her food schedule, soaking schedule, etc. Even with soaks, her shell was incredibly dry and brittle. I dipped my finger into some organic coconut oil and then I gently massaged her shell with it. Since then, it's been looking great! It's been a week and it doesn't look nearly as dry and looks really healthy. I think using it once in a while is pretty good.


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## glitch4200

*Picture update*

Nibbles (almost 15 months coconut oil applications) applied up to 4x a week consistently. 

Diet: store bought greens rotated 3xish a week. With supplements toppers. 
Average humidity: 40% although I try to maintain 60% plus in hides . 

I have an open table top.



Average temp daytime: 85f 
Basking: 95f
Humid hides daytime: 78f
Lights off Temp: 67-71f

Nibbles pictures as of this week.


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## glitch4200

Napebbles (13 months of coconut oil applications) up to 4x a week. 

Napebbles has grown considerably since I got her. December 3rd 2014 she was 10.9 Oz and 4 inches long as of today she is 1lb 4oz and 5.3 inches long.. 

Her habitat right now. 



Ambient temp: 85f 
Basking temp: 95f
Humid hide temp: 78f
Lights off temp: 67f-71f


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## glitch4200

glitch4200 said:


> Napebbles (13 months of coconut oil applications) up to 4x a week.
> 
> Napebbles has grown considerably since I got her. December 3rd 2014 she was 10.9 Oz and 4 inches long as of today she is 1lb 4oz and 5.3 inches long..
> 
> Her habitat right now.
> 
> 
> 
> Ambient temp: 85f
> Basking temp: 95f
> Humid hide temp: 78f
> Lights off temp: 67f-71f
> Humidity average : 40%, humid hide.


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## Leah Woodward

I have a redfoot with a strange growth on his neck. I had applied once a week application of coconut oil to his head scales because they were incredibly dry. I didn't apply oil directly to the growth but it did get into his neck when he'd pull his head in. After four applications (once four timesr times), his scales are considerably better. But more amazingly, the growth it's completely gone. 

Note: the gal who originally rescued him had sent a sample out for testing and the test came back that it wasn't a fungus, but it was not determined what it was.


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## Leah Woodward

This image is after four exposures of coconut oil.


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## Leah Woodward

This image is the weird growth on his neck. There is a large one and smaller ones closer to shell..


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## glitch4200

Leah Woodward said:


> I have a redfoot with a strange growth on his neck. I had applied once a week application of coconut oil to his head scales because they were incredibly dry. I didn't apply oil directly to the growth but it did get into his neck when he'd pull his head in. After four applications (once four timesr times), his scales are considerably better. But more amazingly, the growth it's completely gone.
> 
> Note: the gal who originally rescued him had sent a sample out for testing and the test came back that it wasn't a fungus, but it was not determined what it was.
> View attachment 163844
> View attachment 163844
> View attachment 163847
> View attachment 163844



Wow. Amazing. Another positive experience. Thank you for posting it on here. Very interesting to say the least. I hope they stay gone.


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## ColleenT

So has anyone tried this from the start of this thread and had any negative effects on their tortoise or turtle? I am curious..


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## Kelly71

*Hi,
Wow this stuff is amazing I think also. I put some on Sunnys sore/burn on his head with the oil only
took a couple of days and it was gone! I LOVE the stuff and use it all the time after baths etc... Thanks
so much for telling us about the stuff!*


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## glitch4200

So I have been thinking about the limitations of coconut oil and it's use in tortoises. Many unknowns seem to come to mind.. And I want to make them known. Because if your going to apply anything to your tortoise you should know the whole picture. Both good and bad. 

Here are what I feel are first few limitation and possible detriments of coconut oil in its application In tortoises. After almost 16 months of coconut oil applications on average of 3x a week, I feel I have observed enough of this to put it out. 

When you apply coconut oil on the skin on the legs, what begins to happen is a build up of gunk. I think the substrate along with decomposed oil is building up in the scutes of the deep creviced legs. This poses a few issues for me. 

#1. It can very hard to remove. 
#2. Can be stressful to the tort to remove. 
#3. It can potentially block access for the sunlight to access the basal layer of the alpha keratin thus limiting some uv absorption in the leg crevices. . 
#4. It also seems to build up in the scute hinge regions, but it will come off with a light scrub. But it seems to only happen after many applications without brushing. Again can be unnecessary stressful. 








As I said I will be the first to point out the possible good benefits and possible detriments of doing this. I applied to nibbles legs at least a few times a week and never brushed them when I soaked and their is build up now. But this build up is completely absent in napebbles scutes anywhere, but has also received a few months less applications then nibbles. I scrubbed her the exact same as nibbles too. 

So I guess I must make it a very important note if your applying coconut oil a light brush scrub is necessary a couple time a week or every soak.. A soft sponge works well too. 

My issue is that the effect of unfiltered infrared to the very fragile alpha keratin the skin is damaging in many common housing scenarios. If they bask with their legs out to absorb those uvb Ray's with let's say an mercury vapor bulb which also emits huge amounts of dehydrating unfiltered infrared emissions, they are subject to the proliferation (rebuild and shedding) of the keratin as a countermeasure to preventing the alpha keratin from structural destabilization. 

To kinda recap how alpha keratin is structured in tortoises: 



Hydrogen is a stabilizing molecule in the alpha keratin protein folding coil structure that makes up the skin and lower layer of the scute scutes in tortoise shells. If you heat the alpha keratin coil structure enough with lamps it either proliferates to help protect the fragile structure.. Or it begins to break downs and begins to shed prematurely. If I read the articles right I believe they call it random coiling in the protein folding process . 
As the hydrogen breaks away from the coil it rearranges in order to fold into one another to properly make the alpha keratin framework. so any missing hydrogen molecules in the helical formations of thst framework will screw up the framework by destabilizing the helical structure of bound proteins. If that makes any sense... It does to me.. 

Coconut oil (in theory) will help slow down the proliferation by actually protecting the proteins from hydrogen loss and by helping to seal in the moisture at a molecular level. I have shown in past posts that coconut oil has spectral properties that can lessen the effect of certain wavelengths particularly those wavelengths that interact with water. 

On the flip side of my condensed theory above.. Another possible limitation is too many oil applications overlapped too close together can possible rob the protein structure from necessary equilibrium of obtaining the environmental hydration needed to keep the balance. I highly doubt the water present in the oil which is very small amount can supplement excellent relative humidity in the air in well Hydrated habitsts. So over exposure to the oil can possible cause imbalance to the shell. But again this is not fully defined just a concern. 



The very important question becomes how much water is taken from lamps daily across different style of heating lamps. I personally have been compiling equipment to test this. And have been doing preliminary experiments with my 2 open table table top habitats. So far my habitat with 2x heat lamps (100w & 40w) and 1 uvb lamp, seems to evaporate about 2ish quarts of water a day in 12 hours on average depending on a few other variables. I am doing this to give more of a empirical understanding as to how much attention needs to be placed on external hydration in indoor habitats that use artifical lighting. 

I also only use coconut oil 2x to 3x a week now max. I discontinued 4x a week permanently. It is too much. The decomposition rate to application rate seems to be unbalanced when I look at the numbers between them. One of the things I haven't established is exactly how long coconut oil protects from unfiltered infrared. As the oil decomposes at which point of decomposition does the oil become useless to protect against these unfiltered Rays? I don't know. That is why I don't want to over due it's application at 4x a week.


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## glitch4200

*Pictures update*

Nibbles: *almost 17 months*
As of this week 










Napebbles: *almost 15 months*
As of this week


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## DPtortiose

Interesting posts, very curious what kind of effects you'll observe. 

I recently reread the following article: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html Based on the effects of microorganisms described in this article, the antibacterial effects of coconut oil might not be that beneficial. A health skin has loads of different bacteria and needs them to function properly. I'm not sure it's a good thing to remove healthy bacteria populations this frequently by applying the oil.

So I'm very curious how this develops.


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## glitch4200

OK. To counter your older 2010 article.. I present this brand new 2015 research on pyramiding and it's causes.


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## glitch4200

DPtortiose said:


> Interesting posts, very curious what kind of effects you'll observe.
> 
> I recently reread the following article: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html Based on the effects of microorganisms described in this article, the antibacterial effects of coconut oil might not be that beneficial. A health skin has loads of different bacteria and needs them to function properly. I'm not sure it's a good thing to remove healthy bacteria populations this frequently by applying the oil.
> 
> So I'm very curious how this develops.



This is brand new research on pyramiding in tortoises in captivity. 
From this journal. 



This is the article title. 



This is the link to that article. 

http://www.exoticpetmedicine.com/article/S1557-5063(15)00185-8/fulltext

This is huge research in my opinion. And should be known by all.


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## Alaskamike

Thank you. I read the article. Gleaned from it the conclusion that artificial heat applied 24/7 contributed to pyramiding , and that it is best to allow for cooler temps at night. 

Is that what you got from it? 

I think we hobbiest are aware of the desiccating effects of overhead heat lamps. Mitigation of this is a constant challenge - especially on tortoise tables. 

The " just right " mix of humidity, water availability, food, exercise, sunlight & heat variability are factors we work on. Basic parameters can be argued & experimented with - and are. 

The age as well as type of tortoise makes a difference too, and must be a major deciding factor. 

As a hobbiest - I want the best information as well as feedback from others more experienced than me, and take it all into account. 

Much more research needs to be done.


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## glitch4200

It has been 7 months since my last update... A lot has happened in that time. Lots of research done by me. Lots applications of coconut oil for both my tortoises.. I have made quite a few new observations. I also have discovered and observed some minor detrimental effects of coconut oil, if applied too much to often. 

I lost a huge chunk of my coconut oil research data when my computer crashed a few months ago. I also lost my very long, hard worked research paper on coconut oil.. I was so upset my computer crashed... Lost 24 research articles, and 13 pages of written work. So I have been in the very tedious process of finding all the scholarly articles I lost, and re starting my research paper.. 

As of a few days ago. Nibbles reached 3 years in my care. For about 25 months now, I have applied coconut oil to nibbles. At first when I started I was applying coconut oil up too 4x a week. I did this for over a year. This was wayyyy to much. And it had some negative effect, that I am still observing now. This effect is build up of organic acids (from the decomposed coconut oil) in the crevices of the hinge regions of the scutes and when I did apply to the legs, in the crevices of the scutes in the legs. There is build up of this gunk (which consists of organic acids due to decomposition ). This build up occurred when I applied 4x a week. (well duh, that is a lot of applications) I only apply 2x a week now. But I still see where the buildup has a slowed proper alpha keratin production due to a too low level of pH. If the pH is too low the alpha keratin can not form properly due to the way the amino acid are arranged per the environment it is being arranged in. Which then if alpha keratin doesn't form correctly , beta keratin won't form correctly. Since one is precursor to the other. This is a potential issue with overuse of coconut oil. 

The important questions are.. How much is too much coconut oil? How many applications are too many applications? What is the long term effect of this? 
A lot of these questions, I have partial answers and evidence for.

Many people would argue 0 applications would be best. And not even risk it the damage potential. But I see this oil has having great potential to help in certain circumstances, specifically indoors under unfiltered artificial lighting. 

So do the risks outweigh the benefit? Or do the benefits out way the risks? I think yes. Keeping a healthy hydrated environment within the molecular structure of the shell and skinn is so important to a tortoises growth and structure, that something with the proprietors that coconut oil has, may offer that extra protection against these harmful unfiltered lamps for tortoises housed indoors. 

The ideal way to fight these unfiltered lamps and the damage they cause is what almost everyone can agree on. Proper/ consistent humidity, moist substrate, humid hides, correct temp parameters, lighting schemes that demote intense localized heating on the shell (ie. Dual lighting schemes vs. Single lamp lighting schemes). Or just having a full time enclosure outside under the sun. 

I have also been working on a very research heavy explanation on the cause of pyramiding in tortoises in relation to these artificial lamps. How and why we see so many pyramided tortoises that are housed indoors. Which can directly related to these unfiltered artificial lamps and growth under too dehydrated conditions. Not all of pyramiding occurs from the external environment though it seems . Some tortoises pyramid because of improper diet and access to uvb, thus affecting bone growth and density severely.. I feel that this style of pyramiding is different then the pyramiding caused by artificial lighting. 
Where the external environment and light is driving water from the molecular biology of the tortoise, which in turn drives up mechanical stress on the shell as the increase of beta keratin tries to offset the damage done to the alpha keratin. (alpha keratin is the active precursor of beta keratin, and alpha keratin is stabilized by hydrogen through the amino acid sequences that make up the proteins just mentioned). And the damage is caused by the emissions from these unfiltered lamps, which "superheat" the shell which promotes a "heat stessor" gene expression in the Kerstin sequencing. This expression is what controls proliferation and the influences growth cycles in the biology of the scute and skin growth. And over stimulation of this gene expression leads to a high level of mechanical stress on the scute/bone structure. Add in a poor diet. And weak uvb. And you begin to have weak, pliable bone. Different forms of metabolic bone disease, lowers density of bones and makes them "soft". Once the bones are soft. The addition of the extra mechanical stress will easily bend and mold the bone accordingly. Which will give us a pyramided tortoise. The drier it is the worse it becomes. 

If the tortoise has a super appropriate diet and uvb access and the bones are strong. The shell proliferation can still overpower bone if to much is made.. Which then leads to slighly less pronounced pyramiding. 

All of this is sole opinion of shaun. But with a decent amount of grounded background scholarly research to support these claims.

As of this week. 
Nibbles. 







Napebbles


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## Big Ol Tortoise

This is the stuff i use on my 3 toed Mrs.Turtle I only use it once every few months or so


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## Kelly71

Hi All,
I use this stuff on Sunnys skin and head, I use the oil on this shell.
It looks great! Thing is though I put the oil on then wipe it off right
away! I did use the oil on his head and I think it burned it with the
lights. He is better now and looks better then ever! I do his treatment
I call it once a week. And keep in mind I wipe it off right away after
putting it on. It still has a chance to soak in just not over do it. I use
a micro fiber cloth to wipe off really gets the oil off good! Thanks


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## Mortis_thetortoise

leigti said:


> Well, I don't know what your scope of practice is. But I think we all want to take better care of our tortoises. Ideas and practices have changed over the years. I've only had my tortoise for two years so I don't know much personally about that, just what I read on here. But I know as far as taking care of my dog for instantsthings have changed in the last 20 years. And although my first dog lived to be 17 years old I did things with her diet etc. that I would never think about doing out with my other dog.but as people gain more knowledge than practices change. I would say keep good notes of what you were doing, be open to other ideas also, and see how it works.there are many people on this forum who have had tortoises for decades, some of them may have some views on this also.


what did you do for your dog? 17 is old! thats awesome


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## leigti

Big Ol Tortoise said:


> View attachment 190201
> 
> This is the stuff i use on my 3 toed Mrs.Turtle I only use it once every few months or so


I have never seen that stuff before. Interesting.


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## leigti

Mortis_thetortoise said:


> what did you do for your dog? 17 is old! thats awesome


The dog that lived to be 17 was raised on dog chow, kibble of various brands, got lots of exercise and was basically spoiled rotten  it also helped that she was half sheltie, they have a long life spans.
The dog I have now is 15 years old, I have raced her on a raw diet, she also got lots of exercise and is also spoiled rotten. But she has hip dysplasia sure is and also arthritis in her front legs. I am very surprised but also very pleased she has made it to 15 years old. Not bad for a 55 pound springer lab cross. I know I have been very lucky, but it does take work and money to take good care of animals.


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## Buddytheboxie

glitch4200 said:


> OK. To counter your older 2010 article.. I present this brand new 2015 research on pyramiding and it's causes.


So I wanted to try using coco oil on my little guy since his shell is super dry no matter what I do. His tank dries out too fast and I give him daily soaks and nothing works. I just wanted to know if this brand would work before I use it on him??


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## TammyJ

Buddytheboxie said:


> So I wanted to try using coco oil on my little guy since his shell is super dry no matter what I do. His tank dries out too fast and I give him daily soaks and nothing works. I just wanted to know if this brand would work before I use it on him??


I would not recommend using any kind of oil to try to prevent or halt pyramiding. I have learned here that pyramiding is caused by SHELL GROWTH IN DRY CONDITIONS. I think the humidity in the enclosure must be made adequate and correct. And I believe that putting oil on the tortoise will prevent moisture from getting to do its job to prevent pyramiding! My opinion, just what I think I have definitely learned here.


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## glitch4200

TammyJ said:


> I would not recommend using any kind of oil to try to prevent or halt pyramiding. I have learned here that pyramiding is caused by SHELL GROWTH IN DRY CONDITIONS. I think the humidity in the enclosure must be made adequate and correct. And I believe that putting oil on the tortoise will prevent moisture from getting to do its job to prevent pyramiding! My opinion, just what I think I have definitely learned here.




I have been quiet lately about my research with coconut oil. But with this comment. I can't stay quiet anymore. If you have read this thread. You will note a few concepts I have established in this theoretical concept of using coconut oil in indoor tortoise husbandry. 

The first concept you need to understand is something called Unfiltered infrared. What you are failing to realize.. Is that all forms of artificial basking lamps emit strong levels of harmful emissions called Unfiltered infrared. 

Infrared as a part of the electromagnetic spectrum is broken into three parts. 800nm to 2000+ nm


You can see most regular incandescent bulbs are severely high in emitted Unfiltered infra-red. Dedicated by the wavelengths between 800nm and 2000 nm. 

Infrared A. Infrared B and infrared C.
Infrared A. Is deep core heating. It is what the sun emits most for deep core heating. Infrared B and C displaces it's thermal load on the surface of surfaces. And is much less efficient then infrared A. 

The type of heating the sun provides is water filtered. The emissions the sun emits goes through a highly dense layer of water vapor in our atmosphere. This process filters infrared with water. Thus pulling out infrared that is highly reactive to water. When this infrared hits the tortoise in the wild. The type of heating is fundamentally different then that of emissions that are not water filtered. 

All indoor habitats lack at dense water atmosphere between lamp and tortoise. No amount of added supplemental water added by humidity , soaks, and any other method of hydration can replicate the water filtration process that occurs in the natural sun on earth. 

You need to learn more about the microbiology of scute formation. You are clearly lacking this knowledge. 

The scute of any tortoise is broken into 4 layers. The base layer is called 
The basal layer. This is blood layer. Then alpha keratin is the next layer. Then the alpha keratin proliferates into beta keratin through differentiation. Beta keratin is a very sensitive to water balance. 




The beta keratin (dark green layer) protects the alpha keratin (yellow layer) from environmental stress. A prime example of environmental stress is Unfiltered infrared. 

Here is what a mercury vapor bulb does to the shell at 13 inch distance.. 




Those red spots are super heating spots of beta keratin and alpha keratin. The more the tortoise is exposed to these types of thermal patterns the more the genetic expression of heat stressor genes embedded in the beta keratin will begin to promote abnormal a- symmetrical proliferation of the shell. Did you know what causes proliferation? Cues from the environment.. What kind of cues do you see here in that thermal image? Lots.. Overheating shell. Day in and day out. Promotes a skewed proliferation. 

Second. Coconut oil acts as a barrier to loss of hydration. Those red spots super heat the tissue. And break the bonds at a micro level. These bonds are very sensitive to loss of hydrogen. Ans hydrogen is the bonding molecules that influence protein folding and proliferation as well. Assault on this critical process creates a very unhealthy shell. Due to systematic drying of Unfiltered infrared emitted from ALL forms of basking lamps. That is why the oil helps. It offers protection from the harmful Unfiltered infrared. I have academic research showing the spectrum of coconut oil and what specific parts of the infrared spectrum it absorbs.. And the two spectrums overlap very well. 

So your idea of coconut oil preventing water equalibrium is invalid. Coconut oil decomposes in 4 days. Leaving the shell unprotected once again. Able to absorb and release water. The idea is to stop the loss of water. 

Can you use proper humidity, soaks and available water to help counteract the situation with Unfiltered infrared. Absolutely! But for many people it isn't enough because the strength of how much water is evaporated from these lamps is much much much greater then what is replaced. Guaranteed....


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## glitch4200

I also wanted to show everyone my new habitats! I updated both my habitats lighting schemes. I have been pretty inactive in the forum and ultra active in Facebook tortoise world. But I wanna change that lol 

The new habitats each consist of 3x T5 6.5k daylight bulbs, 1x T5 12% Arcadia 24 watt bulb, 3x 45 watt flood incandescents per habitat. 






And both tortoises are doing very well still. 

Nibbles. 





Napebbles


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## TammyJ

Glitch4200 - thank you for your response. I am by no means an expert and I respect your scientific discourse and findings. Interesting about the dangers of the "dry" infrared.

I have absolutely nothing against coconut oil, it is a wonderful product with many benefits. I used to fry myself in it when I was too young to know better, on the beaches here in Jamaica! Sunscreen it is NOT. Lol!!!


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## Buddytheboxie

TammyJ said:


> I would not recommend using any kind of oil to try to prevent or halt pyramiding. I have learned here that pyramiding is caused by SHELL GROWTH IN DRY CONDITIONS. I think the humidity in the enclosure must be made adequate and correct. And I believe that putting oil on the tortoise will prevent moisture from getting to do its job to prevent pyramiding! My opinion, just what I think I have definitely learned here.


My box turtle is already full grown turning 24 in march. I am not using this oil as a replacement but more as a helping tool. He does have very slight pyramiding but that was way before me for I received him when he was about 14 years old. I give him daily soaks and since I have joined this forum I have changed his tank completely(for the better). The issue that I have came across is that his tank will dry out too fast. I will add water to his coco fiber to get it nice and moist and within 3 hours or so it is dry. I am using this oil as a way of holding in moisture. Anything extra to help him is the best to me. I am not looking to make him look shiny or to make him pleasing to the eye (though it is a nice bonus) I just want him to be as healthy as can be. Again I am still learning. I did read this full post before I decided to do this and I have seen the benifits to it. I will do anything to help Buddy live another 24+ years in the correct environment. He also seems more active since I put the first coat.  
I hope I did not come of as attacking I am just stating my opinion.


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## kelii

I use coconut oil about once a week for my red foots. They are growing nice and smooth. I asked my vet when I took them in to get tested for parasites and she told me they recommend it if the tortoises seem dry. She said it helps with healing.


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## Fredkas

So... what a thread. I really can't read all of it. And the scientific terms make me really want to cry 
So... @glitch4200 , forgive my ignorance to this 26 pages of words worth reading. I realize that this is still the learning process. I want your latest finding of course. I read only around half of it randomly and i stopped.
From what i was reading, coconut oil sure has anti fungus or heal properties, is this still valid?, this is the reason i wan to use it.
I am considering heavily on applying coconut oil to my tortoise, but what i am afraid is the uvb. I have only one times a week to let my tortoise expose to sun. I dont use any artificial uvb. I really don't want anything blockage the uvb my tortoises can get, because it is so valuable for them (they get it only once a week). So the real tough question is coming:
1. How is the relationship of coconut oil towards the blockage of uvb? How much?
2. What is your recommendation application frequency? I am thinking of once a week max, the questions is, Apply to skin or apply only to shell?
3. Do you think i apply it after sun bathing or before sunbathing best?
I am looking forward for your best complete answers. Thanks a lot  

Ps. Why i am thinking owning torts slowly comparable to owning a car, they need polishing


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## Alaskamike

Haven't been around for awhile, but thought an update was in order with the caveat that my experience with coconut oil is antidotal & certainly not proof of anything. 

Early on when Glitch started his EVCO ( extra big in coconut oil ) experiments & research I read his posts with great interest. I also did some research on EVCO on my own & found confirmation of its properties. 

I have the advantage of living in humid hit South Florida, and also being able to raise my torts in outside pens. This area has an amazing % of sunshine to cloudy sky's as well. 

Even so, I could justify the use of coconut oil , especially during out less humid winters. I use it about once / week year round. Several things I've noted ; 

Due to high humid wet conditions, my 17 lb Sulcata , "Tiny" gets white mold growing every few months. Probably cause he built a burrow. One application of EVCO & the next day it's gone. 

He also is prone to eye infections about once every 3 months. I've treated it with ophthalmology cream, but last time I was out of that so I drizzled EVCO over his head into his eyes - in two days it was gone , usually took a week with the cream. Go figure. 

I rescued him at 2yr old & a stunted 2 & 1/2 lbs. he was noticeably pyramided having been raised w/o UV in a tupperwear tub in a kitchen. Now at 4 & 1/2 he's 17 lbs & she'll shows major improvement. Did the EVCO help? I don't know but I will continue to use it. 



I also have a leopard & an Aldabra. They too get the EVCO abt once a week. I see no downside , though their shells are great & have been The Aldabra also is 17 lbs but younger than Tiny. She is 3 & 1/2 yo. Looks like a bowling ball. Lol.


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## Teodora'sDAD

I just had to throw my two cents in on this subject. I came on here a few months ago showing pictures of the growth lines between my tortoises scutes. They were dry looking and the growth looked like it was cracking instead of growing like it has in the past. You guys told me right away to use the coconut oil and I couldnt be more happy with the results. I havnt had to use it much at all and I have the same small container from when I first purchased it. When the warmer months rolled in I took it out and it was completely liquid. I used my fingers and rubbed it on and I have to say that I feel like it moisturized more than the other times i used it. Wonder if the liquid got into the tiny cracks better? Five stars from me *****


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## glitch4200

Hi Everyone.  

It sure has been awhile... I have a lot to say... I have learned so much about the effects of coconut oil on my tortoises over the past while. I promised you all that if i noticed anything harmful from its use, or cautionary that needed to be stated that I would do so happily. I have dug up a lot of grounded science on coconut oil and the microbiology of tortoise shells. Then i tried very hard to accurately synthesize and combine the literature on the two. I theorized that coconut oil could do a great deal of good, when a tortoise is housed indoors/outdoors under the right conditions that would warrant its use. Conditions like: using any style of artificial lighting (ie basking lamps, cermic emitters etc), dry habitats, lack of humidity, access to clean drinking water etc. 


It should be widely known now that artificial lighting is not like the natural sun's lighting. The suns emissions across the spectrum is water filtered; specifically in the infrared ranges. Artificial lighting (basking bulbs) are not water filtered at all. The sun has a water vapor atmosphere that filtered the incoming emissions like infrared A,B, and C. The artificial lighting does not have a water atmosphere to pass thru and these emissions do NOT lose their water evaporation ability, like the suns emissions do. This poses a problem in reptile care indoors or in any application that uses artificial lighting. 


Coconut oil has infrared spectrum blocking capabilities, in 3 of the infrared ranges that specifically target water; which in turn causes a decrease in abnormal surface evaporation of water from the microbiology of the tortoise due to artificial lighting. 


Coconut oil has antimicrobial properties due to high Lauric acid concentrations in the 40% range, which disturbs bacterial cell walls and fungal structures (topically or orally converted). 


Coconut oil has the ability to influence environmental growth due to pH fluctutations of the microbiology of the tortoises shell and skin during 3 sets of growth phases. This influence can be both positive and NEGATIVE.<------ Very important, new information<------- This influence depends on the growth stage your tortoise is in. 

I have synthesized that tortoises have microbiological keratin growth stages, and depending on the keratin growth stage your tortoise is in, will determine the effect coconut oil will have on the shell.


3 Phases of growth in the form of alpha/beta keratin ratio's: Baby (high alpha keratin/low beta keratin) Juvenile (medium alpha keratin/medium beta keratin), Adult (low alpha keratin/medium or high beta keratin)

The Negative.. 

How did i come up with the keratin ratios? well... from reading a lot about alpha/beta keratin and their chemistry; which was very hard to grasp. 
Then i applied it to what i was observing with Nibbles my male Russian tort.. When i started coconut oiling my tortoise.. i was using the oil up to 4x a week.. and i maintained this for well over a year... Unknowingly .. I was putting WAY TO MUCH ON and was negatively affecting the keratin growth in a way that i understand now, but did not back then. 

Nibbles i suspect is an adult.. A true adult tort, grows VERY slow. Growth is depicted as alpha keratin to beta keratin proliferation. As a baby grows into an adult, the shell and skin and organs expands. This is growth.. And this expansion can only occur because of a high ratio of alpha keratin proliferation.. This is why babies remain flexible, and pliable shell and skin wise.. Because they need to remain pliable as they expand for bone and organ growth and only alpha keratin could retain such flexibility. As they get older, that sensitive Alpha keratin framework needs to be protected from water loss and environmental dangers, this is why their is beta keratin. Beta keratin is the protector of the tortoise. Beta keratin shields tort from water loss. (They do not have microscopic pores, they do not sweat) It gives a protecting structure to bone and organs. It is essential for their survival. 

However, as an adult. The alpha keratin and beta keratin of the shell proliferates very slowly (low alpha/low to medium beta). As a baby alpha keratin has to proliferate faster then beta keratin for it to expand smoothly. As a juvenile, they need slightly more alpha then beta, to continue growing smooth. Then as an adult they slow, almost stop proliferating unless it is environmentally induced (think artificial lighting). This is backed up by research in the field of experimental dermatology. Microbiologists looked at the samples of tortoise shell at different ages, and concluded by explaining that their are alpha/beta keratin ratios depicting phases of growth, depicted by proliferation ratios.

Now.. back to the part where i said coconut oil influences microbiological pH in the tortoise shell and skin during proliferation. I was applying up to 4x a week for well over a year. This was catastrophic for these alpha/keratin ratios in the Adult growth phase... Why? Well.. coconut oil is acidic. Lauric acid decomposes into lactic acid. Which is a Keratolytic. This means we have an pH change that is lowering the environment needed to grow beta keratin, as beta keratin is neutral/basic for proper growth. So beta keratin growth is inhibited with too low a pH on the shell. What i did NOT account for... was that alpha keratin will STOP growing and DEGRADE if pH becomes to low. Unfortunately... that is what has occurred with Nibbles... The alpha keratin degraded pretty bad due to over application early on in the research + NOT CLEANING THE OLD DECOMPOSED OIL OFF WITH A SCRUB BRUSH. 
Remember in adult growth phases their is low alpha keratin/low beta keratin proliferation.. So lowering the pH to low, not only stopped new growth of alpha keratin.. but it destroyed previous growth by denurturing the proteins further. And no alpha keratin = no beta keratin since alpha is precursor to beta. This is a big problem for someone who is over applying and not cleaning the old decomposed acids off (obviously not anymore). And i observed this with Nibbles. The scute ridges have degraded some, so i stopped using the oil with him. I did so about 4 months ago, to see if i observe new growth when the pH changes back to normal... and i have observed new growth again... but a year and half of up to 4x a week w/o washing the old oil off, had negative observable degrading. It upsets me. But then i remember the oil has helped A LOT with Napebbles my female russian tort. 


Side two...

Napebbles... is a different story.. She has seen EXTREME smooth growth. I got her as a baby/juvenile. So applying coconut oil to a baby/juvenile means that alpha keratin proliferation is high. Lowering the pH in the keratin environments during a baby/juvenile growth phases would be the MOST IDEAL. because the proliferation can sustain new keratin formation at a rate that would not expose the older alpha keratin to protein denurturing from decomposing acids. This is why napebbles is so smooth and grew so smooth so fast. Her shell enviornment was prime for alpha keratin proliferation based on her growth phase, and the coconut oil put that phase into overdrive, which promotes flexible pliable growth which is smooth and unrestricted by beta keratin. As you can see from earlier posts of them, you see the light yellow expands very wide and symmetrical around the entire shell. This is alpha keratin proliferation... The darker part of the shell is the established beta keratin formation. Once alpha keratin is made, beta keratin can begin to proliferate depending on genetic expressional cues. 

This is where problem two occurs. If you promote alpha keratin production like i did with her, and she expands very fast, the beta keratin that needs to proliferate to cover this new alpha keratin is influenced by the environmental cues the shell is exposed to from the beta keratins "core box". This "core box" is the genetic expression enabled in the beta keratin frameworks that is formed across the shell which responds to environmental cues to engage alpha/beta proliferation cues for the tortoise. Example: tortoise is exposed to extreme temps for years in their native region. A tortoise will take that "extreme temp" as a environmental cue, this cue, triggers the "core box" in the beta keratin to express genetic proliferation cues to the keratin frameworks on the shell. So tort makes more beta keratin to slow down water loss due to extreme heat temps. More beta keratin = less water loss. All this information is in the form of an environmental cue taken in by the tortoises "core box" in the form of trigger genes. (heat stressor genes).

So what does that mean? well.. i stopped using the coconut oil on napebbles for about 4 months as well.. and all that exposed alpha keratin, is being genetically cued by the artificial lighting to proliferate beta keratin in order to protect the alpha keratin from the unfiltered water evaporating emissions of artificial lighting. So i have observed some abnormal folded beta keratin bands across the shell, situated just above the new(now old) alpha keratin. 

To take this a step further.. The abnormal beta keratin bands, i feel are highly correlated with thermal imaging patterns i have taken from these lamps. Each lamp has a specific thermal pattern due to the emissions present in the lamp. The lamp heats up a tortoise in a certain way. Hot spots are a huge problem.. And hot spots created on the shell (SEE THERMAL IMAGING I HAVE DONE) i feel correlate PERFECTLY with these abnormal bands of beta keratin proliferation now present in napebbles. 

This makes sense when you combine the understanding of beta keratin proliferation expression in the core box, which is guided by genetic expression due to "cues" given by the environment the tort is exposed to. So these lamps are making new alpha keratin, abnormally proliferate beta keratin due to heat stress in the core box. As alpha keratin is precursor to beta keratin. This is why when i stopped the coconut oil with her 4 months ago, which was inhibiting the beta keratin proliferation, i am seeing massive beta keratin proliferation now... And it is starting to bow the scutes and create a slight type two pyramiding. 

I will provide pictures soon later with exactly what i mean. It is not as bad as i make it out to be. But this is very important stuff if we are to continue using it in tortoise husbandry.

The take away:


Use coconut oil NO MORE then 2x time a week. Preferably 1x a week, if anything. 
Always scrub at the end of the week, excess decomposed oil off.
Use only cold pressed, unrefined coconut oil


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## Yvonne G

Wow. Thank you so much for this. I love it when our members share their experiments' results with us - the good and the bad. Good job!


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## SteveW

Wow. When you post, you really post! I've not been around for a bit, and in full disclosure, I have not made my way through your back pages. However, I do have some questions regarding your most recent update though. Most pressingly, I don't follow how your observations lead to your conclusions. I understand (I think) your explanation of alpha and beta keratin and the negative effects you have observed, but it seems like the conclusion should be not to use coconut oil. I don't see where you are getting your recommendations regarding frequency of application, type of oil, etc. from the data. Is this an assumption to mitigate the damage you observed via a lower dose?
If the artificial lighting presents the hazard as described, perhaps the answer is a compound that is non-acidic, both in whole and it's metabolites?

I could be missing something, but it feels like there's a gap in the whole 'hypothesis-conclusion' process. Regardless, thanks for sharing all your work. I appreciate all the detail.


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## Alaskamike

@glitch4200 
Great info. It is rare that we can follow experimental care long enough to see real results. I had to read your post carefully - twice - to fully understand it. 

This thread has been an interesting education for me in shell development. The new/old growth alpha/beta keratin relationship is a complex interaction of environmental cues & impacts mixed with genetics. As with most biology , it's not as simple as one factor. 

The impact of artificial UV & heat lamps on the torts has often been hotly debated. But you detailed explanations of hot spots , UV filtration , has added much to my understanding. 

Science works with justified belief , is predictive , and we are willing to change our minds with new valid information. It is evidential. Honest. 

Thank you for your contribution. 
Ever learning- ever trying to understand and improve.


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## Markw84

Thanks so much for your thoughtful and elaborate post. Lots of info there, but some I cannot follow. I hope you can provide some backup info here. Like you, I have done a lot of research in some of this area you have touched on. Perhaps you can give me some links to research papers from which you drew some of the statements and conclusions:

The Atmospheric absorption bands, and in particular for H20 occur with IR-A. Natural sunlight does not have IR-B or IR-C in it. There is virtually no wavelengths above 2400nm (2.4µm) in sunlight. The absorption bands for H2O are therefore in the 900nm, 1150nm, 1300-1400nm, and 1800-1950nm ranges. An absorption band is simply a wavelength that is absorbed (the electron is captured and reemitted at a lower frequency). It does not mean it is a wavelength that dries water. It simply is a result of the vibrational frequency of the H2O vapor molecule. Do you have some supportive information that shows these are desiccating frequency? I am very interested in this. But I think many may be mislead by them label "water absorption frequencies" All elements have an absorption frequency. It does not necessarily mean that frequency dries, or heats that type element. It simply "matches" an open electron frequency.

Artificial light that we use that emits heat (MVB, Incadescent, Halide) all emit IR-A as well as a substantial amount of IR-B. Fluorescents and LED's do not emit any substantial amount of any IR at all. So I assume you are referring to the heat generating bulbs. Do you have data showing that the longer IR-B is more or less desiccating? That would be interesting. IR-B is "deeper heating" but supposedly less desiccating.

All my research and studies have shown reptiles and birds have ß-keratin that makes up scales and skin. In fact phylogenic studies have show it is that type of ß-keratin that matches the feathers, scales, and beaks of birds, showing birds came from the crocodile/chelonian ancestry. I have never heard of α-keratin turning into ß-keratin in chelonians. I have certainly heard of the 3 phases of keratin hair growth in mammals. Not in reptile ß-keratin. The previously termed "core box" is what I see more commonly now referred to as simply the central part of the ß-keratin. My understanding was that in reptiles and birds, unlike mammals, there is simply the beta-folded region of amino acids. This leads to the formation of ß-keratin directly. This is all very intriguing. Can you refer me to something that shows chelonian keratin goes through a 3 stage growth process?

I am also vastly interested in epigenetics. My sister is one of the leading experts in the world on epigenetics, with dozens o publications and speaking all over the world to medical societies and research facilities. Do you know any specifics of the "environmental cue" that would trigger the ß-keratin growth. Environmental gene triggers is her specific area of research and grants. I would love to run some of that info by her.

Thank you again for taking your time to lay this out and share. This is one of the things I love about this forum!!


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## glitch4200

@Markw84 Sure, you asked a lot. I have to do some digging. So I want you to read a few previous posts in this thread before i continue because i answer many of your questions.

A few things i would like to disagree with..

Natural sunlight does have Infrared A, B and C. It is just that during most atmospheric conditions C is blocked and B is majority blocked, but B still comes through in decent levels.
Natural sunlight DOES have infrared range past 2400nm. In fact.. It has Infrared into the 3500nm range. It is just that it does not have much power.
A few posts I need you to read so a few more questions are answered.
Pg. 23 Post 456 : Proliferation of scute/ growth phases Research
Pg 19 Post 366 to 367: Scute biology, Thermal imaging connection
Pg 15 Post 289 to 291: Coconut oil refractive index absorbs harmful artificial wavelengths

Your question about how i know those specific wavelengths are dissecting I will find for you.
Your question explaining the thermal load differences between Infrared A, B and C i will find for you. I need to find the thread that Dr. Frances Baines made describing the thermal load differences each type of infrared has.

Now the epigenetics stuff, i have to dig for.. Not going to lie that is very intimidating about your sister. Good for her.. That is amazing. I hope she does not laugh at me... I will also look through my research. Someone that is very notable in this area is a researcher named Lombardi Alibardi. He talks about the enviornmental cues i was talking about, and how it impacted the expression of keratin frameworks.

Just so people know.. i am not an expert in 98% of these areas i am talking about. I am a going to be neuropsychology clinician and theorist. I also am a Registered Behavioral Therapist. So i can understand complex stuff, so do forgive me if i mix up concepts and knowledge. I am trying my best.


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## Markw84

glitch4200 said:


> @Markw84 Sure, you asked a lot. I have to do some digging. So I want you to read a few previous posts in this thread before i continue because i answer many of your questions.
> 
> A few things i would like to disagree with..
> 
> Natural sunlight does have Infrared A, B and C. It is just that during most atmospheric conditions C is blocked and B is majority blocked, but B still comes through in decent levels.
> Natural sunlight DOES have infrared range past 2400nm. In fact.. It has Infrared into the 3500nm range. It is just that it does not have much power.
> A few posts I need you to read so a few more questions are answered.
> Pg. 23 Post 456 : Proliferation of scute/ growth phases Research
> Pg 19 Post 366 to 367: Scute biology, Thermal imaging connection
> Pg 15 Post 289 to 291: Coconut oil refractive index absorbs harmful artificial wavelengths
> 
> Your question about how i know those specific wavelengths are dissecting I will find for you.
> Your question explaining the thermal load differences between Infrared A, B and C i will find for you. I need to find the thread that Dr. Frances Baines made describing the thermal load differences each type of infrared has.
> 
> Now the epigenetics stuff, i have to dig for.. Not going to lie that is very intimidating about your sister. Good for her.. That is amazing. I hope she does not laugh at me... I will also look through my research. Someone that is very notable in this area is a researcher named Lombardi Alibardi. He talks about the enviornmental cues i was talking about, and how it impacted the expression of keratin frameworks.
> 
> Just so people know.. i am not an expert in 98% of these areas i am talking about. I am a going to be neuropsychology clinician and theorist. I also am a Registered Behavioral Therapist. So i can understand complex stuff, so do forgive me if i mix up concepts and knowledge. I am trying my best.


Thanks so much for the response. I do appreciate all your thoughts, and just assumed you were used to the scientific process. So understand I am not trying to argue, but am interested in engaging on the testing of theory by peer review.

I have not read the entire paper by Alibardi and will respond when I have time to do more justice to the whole paper and conclusions. However, I do immediately see where the only reference to α-keratin is with specific differentiation in the way aquatic turtle scutes develop. There an layer of α-keratin forms a thin layer (scission layer) that actually serves to separate the old upper layer of scute from the newer forming ß-keratin scute material forming below. Thus allowing shedding. In tortoises, the references are to ß-keratin primarily forming at the seams, etc.

When we look at a lot of research papers, we see many that refer to a basic theory that pyramiding is caused by fast growth and by too much protein. SO just because it is in a research paper, does not make it a fact - it is often simply a theory to be tested. So many of the papers I have read on keratin go back and forth between mammal and reptile types in keratin since so much more is known about mammal keratin growth, but does not necessarily translate to reptiles. We see this with dietary items all the time too.

When I speak of "natural sunlight" I am referring to the electromagnetic radiation that actually reaches earth, through the atmosphere. I went back to pull a chart of radiation for reference. This is a Spectrum of Solar Radiation showing the filtering effect of the atmosphere. As you can see, IR above 2400nm is negligible with the water absorption band starting at about 2400nm that almost completely eliminates IR above that.




And, my sister would not laugh at all. She loves the scientific process. She has no problem when we throw ideas at each other for feedback. So anything you can find on your comments about "heat trigger genes" or "heat stressor genes" would be greatly appreciated.

I think it also worth stating again that atmosphic absorption bands are not "water evaporation bands". The water molecule is simply gaining vibrational energy. Carbon Dioxide is also contributing to this in our atmosphere, not just water vapor. And the absorption bands of gaseous water is very different than liquid water. So to draw a direct reference to IR that would have been absorbed in the atmosphere, now drying a carapace excessively is not necessarily valid. However, I do believe there is something to Near-IR and it exacerbating pyramiding. So let the discussion continue!


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## KevinGG

Wow. What a great thread. I just participated in a thread about coconut oil that amounted to nothing. To be fair, I didn't help that. Really nice to see people actually doing research. 

This is incredibly interesting. I am so eager to read the papers you come back with. Thank you @Markw84 for providing the review. This can only get better from here. If we can continue this dialogue, I'd be willing to use some of my Greek hatchlings as an informal experiment. Should have some hatching in the spring. Obviously, more info needed both in terms of keratin growth and application of the oil. 

What an interesting concept though: Pyramiding is the body's response to heat dessication because beta keratin holds in moisture. This also makes sense in terms of when pyramiding occurs. If beta keratin was the only stage, wouldn't adults be subject to pyramiding in dessicating environments? 

My mom has done work on epigenetics as well. (Definitely not the leading expert though  ) I'd love to go over some of this with her. Again, can't wait to see what you come back with! I'm supposed to be on meditation retreat, but I may end up reading about keratin growth instead. Thanks a lot...


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## Markw84

KevinGG said:


> Wow. What a great thread. I just participated in a thread about coconut oil that amounted to nothing. To be fair, I didn't help that. Really nice to see people actually doing research.
> 
> This is incredibly interesting. I am so eager to read the papers you come back with. Thank you @Markw84 for providing the review. This can only get better from here. If we can continue this dialogue, I'd be willing to use some of my Greek hatchlings as an informal experiment. Should have some hatching in the spring. Obviously, more info needed both in terms of keratin growth and application of the oil.
> 
> What an interesting concept though: Pyramiding is the body's response to heat dessication because beta keratin holds in moisture. This also makes sense in terms of when pyramiding occurs. If beta keratin was the only stage, wouldn't adults be subject to pyramiding in dessicating environments?
> 
> My mom has done work on epigenetics as well. (Definitely not the leading expert though  ) I'd love to go over some of this with her. Again, can't wait to see what you come back with! I'm supposed to be on meditation retreat, but I may end up reading about keratin growth instead. Thanks a lot...



Yes, I saw that thread that got going on coconut oil and was quite disappointed that is was so argumentative, so I didn't bother adding anything there. I do think anything we can do to better understand how keratin dries prematurely and ways to possible mitigate that has value. We certainly know lotions and oils help our own hair and nails grow better, especially in overly dry conditions. So why not explore possible ways to help keratin grow on a tortoise that is being kept in an unnatural environment? I just don't get the argument that it doesn't exist in the wild so why would you use it! Incandescent light, limited space, food available in the dry season, water to soak in every day throughout the year, better, more nutritionally balanced diet, etc, etc, all do not exist in the wild. And in the wild, what does exist has at least a 99.5% kill rate for every tortoise hatched!

I have not heard back from @glitch4200 but realize I asked for info that would not be easy to come by. I have talked with my sister at length now about this from the epigenetics side. She is intrigued, but the end result of our debates was it seems not to be an epigenetic issue as we would expect a more universal response over the tortoise once the gene "directions" have been modified. Also would expect it to not so easily be reversed once started as we see in pyramided tortoise in a new monsoon type environment - if it was gene direction modification. As yes, you can see adult tortoises that were smooth start to pyramid later in life if kept too dry. They are the ones you sometimes see that have more of a plateau look to the scutes as opposed to a pyramid.

I have read and studied the article Glitch references. I do not come away with the conversion of ß-keratin from α-keratin. The article goes back and forth with aquatic turtles and tortoises as they are very different in the way they lay down and form keratin. I think there was some confusion there. Also, it became quite apparent, that the researchers knew very little about pyramiding and actual scute formation at a macro level. They apparently are quite versed in the microscopic and molecular formation of keratin, but the way scutes grow left them with some gross misstatements. But very interesting and learned some nice things there I can carry forward.

I hope this discussion continues.


----------



## KevinGG

Markw84 said:


> Yes, I saw that thread that got going on coconut oil and was quite disappointed that is was so argumentative, so I didn't bother adding anything there. I do think anything we can do to better understand how keratin dries prematurely and ways to possible mitigate that has value. We certainly know lotions and oils help our own hair and nails grow better, especially in overly dry conditions. So why not explore possible ways to help keratin grow on a tortoise that is being kept in an unnatural environment? I just don't get the argument that it doesn't exist in the wild so why would you use it! Incandescent light, limited space, food available in the dry season, water to soak in every day throughout the year, better, more nutritionally balanced diet, etc, etc, all do not exist in the wild. And in the wild, what does exist has at least a 99.5% kill rate for every tortoise hatched!
> 
> I have not heard back from @glitch4200 but realize I asked for info that would not be easy to come by. I have talked with my sister at length now about this from the epigenetics side. She is intrigued, but the end result of our debates was it seems not to be an epigenetic issue as we would expect a more universal response over the tortoise once the gene "directions" have been modified. Also would expect it to not so easily be reversed once started as we see in pyramided tortoise in a new monsoon type environment - if it was gene direction modification. As yes, you can see adult tortoises that were smooth start to pyramid later in life if kept too dry. They are the ones you sometimes see that have more of a plateau look to the scutes as opposed to a pyramid.
> 
> I have read and studied the article Glitch references. I do not come away with the conversion of ß-keratin from α-keratin. The article goes back and forth with aquatic turtles and tortoises as they are very different in the way they lay down and form keratin. I think there was some confusion there. Also, it became quite apparent, that the researchers knew very little about pyramiding and actual scute formation at a macro level. They apparently are quite versed in the microscopic and molecular formation of keratin, but the way scutes grow left them with some gross misstatements. But very interesting and learned some nice things there I can carry forward.
> 
> I hope this discussion continues.



Yes, everyone, myself included, was more interested in being correct than actually learning. Turned into an "i think" conversation based on emotion. 

Interesting. I hadn't heard of the adults pyramiding. Can you speak more on the "universal response" your sister would have expected to see? 

I fear the problem with these conversations always comes down to hypothesis as the studies are rarely adequate. I'm going to do some more research though, so I can at least hypothesize intelligently on this.


----------



## Markw84

KevinGG said:


> Yes, everyone, myself included, was more interested in being correct than actually learning. Turned into an "i think" conversation based on emotion.
> 
> Interesting. I hadn't heard of the adults pyramiding. Can you speak more on the "universal response" your sister would have expected to see?
> 
> I fear the problem with these conversations always comes down to hypothesis as the studies are rarely adequate. I'm going to do some more research though, so I can at least hypothesize intelligently on this.



Her observation was that if it was a genetic modification, she would expect to see it start effecting keratin growth all over the tortoise. We do not see it effecting plastral growth, and it also seems most pronounced on the vertebrals, less so on the costals and often negligible on the marginals. That would indicate environmental conditions more than genetic modification.


----------



## glitch4200

Markw84 said:


> Thanks so much for the response. I do appreciate all your thoughts, and just assumed you were used to the scientific process. So understand I am not trying to argue, but am interested in engaging on the testing of theory by peer review.
> 
> I have not read the entire paper by Alibardi and will respond when I have time to do more justice to the whole paper and conclusions. However, I do immediately see where the only reference to α-keratin is with specific differentiation in the way aquatic turtle scutes develop. There an layer of α-keratin forms a thin layer (scission layer) that actually serves to separate the old upper layer of scute from the newer forming ß-keratin scute material forming below. Thus allowing shedding. In tortoises, the references are to ß-keratin primarily forming at the seams, etc.
> 
> When we look at a lot of research papers, we see many that refer to a basic theory that pyramiding is caused by fast growth and by too much protein. SO just because it is in a research paper, does not make it a fact - it is often simply a theory to be tested. So many of the papers I have read on keratin go back and forth between mammal and reptile types in keratin since so much more is known about mammal keratin growth, but does not necessarily translate to reptiles. We see this with dietary items all the time too.
> 
> When I speak of "natural sunlight" I am referring to the electromagnetic radiation that actually reaches earth, through the atmosphere. I went back to pull a chart of radiation for reference. This is a Spectrum of Solar Radiation showing the filtering effect of the atmosphere. As you can see, IR above 2400nm is negligible with the water absorption band starting at about 2400nm that almost completely eliminates IR above that.
> 
> View attachment 215156
> 
> 
> And, my sister would not laugh at all. She loves the scientific process. She has no problem when we throw ideas at each other for feedback. So anything you can find on your comments about "heat trigger genes" or "heat stressor genes" would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> I think it also worth stating again that atmosphic absorption bands are not "water evaporation bands". The water molecule is simply gaining vibrational energy. Carbon Dioxide is also contributing to this in our atmosphere, not just water vapor. And the absorption bands of gaseous water is very different than liquid water. So to draw a direct reference to IR that would have been absorbed in the atmosphere, now drying a carapace excessively is not necessarily valid. However, I do believe there is something to Near-IR and it exacerbating pyramiding. So let the discussion continue!



I apologize for taking so long but i had to finish my classes for my degree this summer, so i could be eligible my masters degree classes for this fall.
So where to start...

I have compiled a list of research articles in PDF form on google drive. Here is the link to the folder:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B2A58OHkVjjodV90RTVsZHd2QkE?usp=sharing
*Disclaimer: I did not produce these research articles, and i am really not authorized to share these to the public without proper their permission. Since i have been unable to obtain permission. The authors listed in the articles are to be understood as the owners of the research. I am merely making theoretical connections between data to further enhance the knowledge of tortoises for my own research, and not for monetary gain.*
You will see 7 things in there.
1*. Immunocytochemistry suggests that the Prevelence of a Sub-Type of Beta-Proteins Determins the Hardness in the Epidermis of the Hard-Shelled Turtle. PDF*

a. I would like this article to show evidence for my idea and understanding of ratios in the expression of alpha and beta keratin.
b. Yes, turtles are different then tortoises, but the hard shelled turtle shells microbiology behaves very similar to a tortoises shell microbiology.
c. Terms: Core Box, beta and alpha protein expressions, how soft shelled turtle lacks a particular beta protein expression that is expressed much higher in hard shelled.

2*. Hard cornification in reptilian epidermis in comparison to cornification in mammalian epidermis.pdf*
a. In abstract, it says "stucture of reptilian hard beta keratin, their nucleotide and amino acid sequence, and organization of their genes are presented. Their mRNA are expressed in the beta-cells. The central part of beta keratins (region has been previously termed 'core-box')".
Pg. 963 of the article shows you a drawing of reptiles scales and the different layers in the differentiating epidermis. (See item 7 in folder) Chelonians/Crocodillian: Core box.
Pg. 971 A close up chelonian/crocodillan scute. This illustration shows 4 layers of differentiation. Basal layer supplies blood and nutrients into the suprabasal layer (alpha keratin) then that begins to differentiate into beta filliments (light green layer) which turn into compact beta keratin proteins (Top dark green layer). The bounded beta keratin hosts the core box as represented in the illustration. Beta strand core box. Which is where mRNA is expressed.

*3. Molecular Charactization of Alpha Kertain in Comparision to Associated Beta- Proteins in Soft Shelled and Hard shelled turtles during the Process of Epidermal Differentiation.pdf*
a. This i would hope could show evidence for beta and alpha ratios, alpha/beta protein expression,
b. Yes i understand its turles and not tortoises but i am aiming validate my ideas of the important protein ratios and expression their effect and hardness and viability of why expression is important in our tortoises. A soft shell has a lack of expression in certain bands of beta proteins. Unlike a tortoise, who we know has expressional beta kertain since the shell is hard. Now the connection to pyramiding is right here. Ratio expression of these proteins are trigged by expression in the core box of the beta keratin. Now we can logically come to an idea of what cues could trigger this expression. Like the ENVIRONMENT & DIET (relative humidity, temp range, microclimate moisture, artificial lighting schemes, diet, micronutrient absorption etc).

4*.Differentiation of the epidermis of scutes in embryos and juviniles of the tortoise Testudo Hermanni with emphasis on beta-keratinization. *

a. This article does a great job at probing the embyro stages of beta keratinization and juvenile stages of the well known Testudo hermanni. It does a good job at explaining how our tortoises form hard shells and are able to survive in the hostile environment.

*5. Shows a close up illustration of beta keratin cells proliferating and how ridges are formed. Yes, beta keratin does proliferate from the edges or hinge regions, but it also spaces out across available alpha keratin, which serves as a framework for it to adhear to.*

*item 6 in the folder.*
a. A picture of a 75 incandencent bulb spectral power... Notice anything very very depressing? The spectral emission of almost ALL basking artfiicial bulbs are very highly emitted in the ranges that most effect h2o. Most of their spectral power are in the high infrared ranges. This is a problem, because it offers little visible spectrum vs infrared spectrum. Very skewed. And that vibtrational eneregy is absent in a indoor housed basking bulb because it is unfiltered. Remember the explaination of why water filtration was important? because their is a lack of water filtration in indoor habitats. This means the spectral emissions that are high in the h2o brand will interact very intensel with h20 and seek that energy. Water is drawn from the blood, alpha keratin framework (which effects protein folding)

You mentioned it is different from gas and liquid. So if you get super heated hot spots on the shell because of the spectral emissions of these unfiltered basking lamps (like shown in my thermal imaging) those emissions are interacting with water in the blood, and the hydrogen in the alpha keratin framework.. While actively evaporating environemntal humidity... (You can easily test this by placing a basking bulb above wet substrate, and record the time it takes to dry and the amount of water evaporated) My experiments put it at about 2 cups of water under the bulb a day easily. Water is visibly evaporated in enviornments that employ artificial basking lamps. So now we evidence for thermal load on the shell that is stressing the shells alpha and beta keratin framework

My thought is that anything that cues stress to the beta keratin core box and its mRNA expression like abnormal heat patterns. *Artificial lighting thermal imaging vs. Sunlight thermal imaging (Tortoise Trust, Andy Highfield : Dangers of artificial lighting) This abnormal heating pattern that is not seen in the wild, is promoting an abnormal proliferation of alpha/beta keratin ratio due to abnormal cues to beta core box, which is directly due to the exposure of poor lighting schemes that are promoting poor thermal loads to the keratin frameworks. If you look at the andy highfield article you can see clear difference in why the thermal load matters, and why the type of infrared emitted in the bulbs matters.


----------



## Markw84

glitch4200 said:


> I apologize for taking so long but i had to finish my classes for my degree this summer, so i could be eligible my masters degree classes for this fall.
> So where to start...
> 
> I have compiled a list of research articles in PDF form on google drive. Here is the link to the folder:
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B2A58OHkVjjodV90RTVsZHd2QkE?usp=sharing
> *Disclaimer: I did not produce these research articles, and i am really not authorized to share these to the public without proper their permission. Since i have been unable to obtain permission. The authors listed in the articles are to be understood as the owners of the research. I am merely making theoretical connections between data to further enhance the knowledge of tortoises for my own research, and not for monetary gain.*
> You will see 7 things in there.
> 1*. Immunocytochemistry suggests that the Prevelence of a Sub-Type of Beta-Proteins Determins the Hardness in the Epidermis of the Hard-Shelled Turtle. PDF*
> 
> a. I would like this article to show evidence for my idea and understanding of ratios in the expression of alpha and beta keratin.
> b. Yes, turtles are different then tortoises, but the hard shelled turtle shells microbiology behaves very similar to a tortoises shell microbiology.
> c. Terms: Core Box, beta and alpha protein expressions, how soft shelled turtle lacks a particular beta protein expression that is expressed much higher in hard shelled.
> 
> 2*. Hard cornification in reptilian epidermis in comparison to cornification in mammalian epidermis.pdf*
> a. In abstract, it says "stucture of reptilian hard beta keratin, their nucleotide and amino acid sequence, and organization of their genes are presented. Their mRNA are expressed in the beta-cells. The central part of beta keratins (region has been previously termed 'core-box')".
> Pg. 963 of the article shows you a drawing of reptiles scales and the different layers in the differentiating epidermis. (See item 7 in folder) Chelonians/Crocodillian: Core box.
> Pg. 971 A close up chelonian/crocodillan scute. This illustration shows 4 layers of differentiation. Basal layer supplies blood and nutrients into the suprabasal layer (alpha keratin) then that begins to differentiate into beta filliments (light green layer) which turn into compact beta keratin proteins (Top dark green layer). The bounded beta keratin hosts the core box as represented in the illustration. Beta strand core box. Which is where mRNA is expressed.
> 
> *3. Molecular Charactization of Alpha Kertain in Comparision to Associated Beta- Proteins in Soft Shelled and Hard shelled turtles during the Process of Epidermal Differentiation.pdf*
> a. This i would hope could show evidence for beta and alpha ratios, alpha/beta protein expression,
> b. Yes i understand its turles and not tortoises but i am aiming validate my ideas of the important protein ratios and expression their effect and hardness and viability of why expression is important in our tortoises. A soft shell has a lack of expression in certain bands of beta proteins. Unlike a tortoise, who we know has expressional beta kertain since the shell is hard. Now the connection to pyramiding is right here. Ratio expression of these proteins are trigged by expression in the core box of the beta keratin. Now we can logically come to an idea of what cues could trigger this expression. Like the ENVIRONMENT & DIET (relative humidity, temp range, microclimate moisture, artificial lighting schemes, diet, micronutrient absorption etc).
> 
> 4*.Differentiation of the epidermis of scutes in embryos and juviniles of the tortoise Testudo Hermanni with emphasis on beta-keratinization. *
> 
> a. This article does a great job at probing the embyro stages of beta keratinization and juvenile stages of the well known Testudo hermanni. It does a good job at explaining how our tortoises form hard shells and are able to survive in the hostile environment.
> 
> *5. Shows a close up illustration of beta keratin cells proliferating and how ridges are formed. Yes, beta keratin does proliferate from the edges or hinge regions, but it also spaces out across available alpha keratin, which serves as a framework for it to adhear to.*
> 
> *item 6 in the folder.*
> a. A picture of a 75 incandencent bulb spectral power... Notice anything very very depressing? The spectral emission of almost ALL basking artfiicial bulbs are very highly emitted in the ranges that most effect h2o. Most of their spectral power are in the high infrared ranges. This is a problem, because it offers little visible spectrum vs infrared spectrum. Very skewed. And that vibtrational eneregy is absent in a indoor housed basking bulb because it is unfiltered. Remember the explaination of why water filtration was important? because their is a lack of water filtration in indoor habitats. This means the spectral emissions that are high in the h2o brand will interact very intensel with h20 and seek that energy. Water is drawn from the blood, alpha keratin framework (which effects protein folding)
> 
> You mentioned it is different from gas and liquid. So if you get super heated hot spots on the shell because of the spectral emissions of these unfiltered basking lamps (like shown in my thermal imaging) those emissions are interacting with water in the blood, and the hydrogen in the alpha keratin framework.. While actively evaporating environemntal humidity... (You can easily test this by placing a basking bulb above wet substrate, and record the time it takes to dry and the amount of water evaporated) My experiments put it at about 2 cups of water under the bulb a day easily. Water is visibly evaporated in enviornments that employ artificial basking lamps. So now we evidence for thermal load on the shell that is stressing the shells alpha and beta keratin framework
> 
> My thought is that anything that cues stress to the beta keratin core box and its mRNA expression like abnormal heat patterns. *Artificial lighting thermal imaging vs. Sunlight thermal imaging (Tortoise Trust, Andy Highfield : Dangers of artificial lighting) This abnormal heating pattern that is not seen in the wild, is promoting an abnormal proliferation of alpha/beta keratin ratio due to abnormal cues to beta core box, which is directly due to the exposure of poor lighting schemes that are promoting poor thermal loads to the keratin frameworks. If you look at the andy highfield article you can see clear difference in why the thermal load matters, and why the type of infrared emitted in the bulbs matters.



Thanks, @glitch4200 I do have access to these articles as well as I do a fair bit of research, but I am grateful for the references here. The titles alone would have given me what to look for. You have gone above and beyond!


----------



## glitch4200

Markw84 said:


> Yes, I saw that thread that got going on coconut oil and was quite disappointed that is was so argumentative, so I didn't bother adding anything there. I do think anything we can do to better understand how keratin dries prematurely and ways to possible mitigate that has value. We certainly know lotions and oils help our own hair and nails grow better, especially in overly dry conditions. So why not explore possible ways to help keratin grow on a tortoise that is being kept in an unnatural environment? I just don't get the argument that it doesn't exist in the wild so why would you use it! Incandescent light, limited space, food available in the dry season, water to soak in every day throughout the year, better, more nutritionally balanced diet, etc, etc, all do not exist in the wild. And in the wild, what does exist has at least a 99.5% kill rate for every tortoise hatched!
> 
> I have not heard back from @glitch4200 but realize I asked for info that would not be easy to come by. I have talked with my sister at length now about this from the epigenetics side. She is intrigued, but the end result of our debates was it seems not to be an epigenetic issue as we would expect a more universal response over the tortoise once the gene "directions" have been modified. Also would expect it to not so easily be reversed once started as we see in pyramided tortoise in a new monsoon type environment - if it was gene direction modification. As yes, you can see adult tortoises that were smooth start to pyramid later in life if kept too dry. They are the ones you sometimes see that have more of a plateau look to the scutes as opposed to a pyramid.
> 
> I have read and studied the article Glitch references. I do not come away with the conversion of ß-keratin from α-keratin. The article goes back and forth with aquatic turtles and tortoises as they are very different in the way they lay down and form keratin. I think there was some confusion there. Also, it became quite apparent, that the researchers knew very little about pyramiding and actual scute formation at a macro level. They apparently are quite versed in the microscopic and molecular formation of keratin, but the way scutes grow left them with some gross misstatements. But very interesting and learned some nice things there I can carry forward.
> 
> I hope this discussion continues.



The idea of this rant is my theory of pyramiding. 

This is a theory that I have synthesized based on my research into the research regarding different aspects of the microbiology of the tortoise scute structures. And my observed experiences on public forums seeing other people's pyramiding tortoises and their set ups, diet etc. 

Their are two types of pyramiding that I have observed. 

Type One Pyramiding: encompasses pyramiding tortoises that have been neglected vital hest, UV, and absorbed micronutrients, d3 synthesis and appropriate diet that leads specifically to weak bone that is pliable with varying levels of softness. This weak bone could lead to a unstable plateform for scutes and the pressure of scute proliferation can bow and deform the bone. Or the bone grows deformed leading to deformed scute structure. (depends on the stage this occurs: baby, juvenile, adult). 

Type Two Pyramiding: encompasses pyramiding tortoises that have adequate diet, uV and heat exposure, micronutrient intake, and internal water but are still pyramiding. 

This is because the external environment is triggering an external response to extreme environmental cues. Like unfiltered infrared emissions like that 75 watt bulb I showed. Or very low relative humidity in habitat. Low soil moisture.It's recorded in multiple places that a common artificial basking bulb can zap about 50 percent relative humidity directly under a bulb in about an hour. 

During a baby and juvenile stages, their is a higher level of alpha keratin to beta keratin. This allow for expansion of the tortoise as it grows and if their is exposure to external stressors like unfiltered infrared emissions (which create very abnormal thermal patterns on the shell as a tortoise warms up in set ups using artificial basking bulbs) will create abnormal proliferation patterns. We see this in young tortoises on facebook for Example that are less then two and have extensive pyramiding but are feeding the right foods. But look at their habitats they all have one thing in common. Poor lighting schemes promoting unhealthy dehydrated growth from poor thermal heat patterns along the shell + very dry habitats + little soaks + little spray downs. It's common knowledge on here that good moisture internally and externally makes a smooth tortoise. @Tom showed that with his experiment. 

So the type two pyramiding tortoises are mainly focused on external factors promoting the pyramiding. And the Type one pyramiding tortoises are focused on internal deficiencies like micronutrient imbalance, improper diet + lack of UV exposure which leads to weak bone structure which ultimately impacts scute structures. 

The thing is a tortoise can pyramid because of both types and their factors listed above. This is where the complexity occurs. Most people point diet. Others point hydration. And some point to all of the above. And most of the time it is a combination of type one and type two factors. 

But first we need to clarify there is a major difference between type one and type two. You can't lump all Pyramiding tortoises into the same category because it lacks explaining certain types of pyramiding that are clearly being observed.


----------



## glitch4200

Markw84 said:


> Her observation was that if it was a genetic modification, she would expect to see it start effecting keratin growth all over the tortoise. We do not see it effecting plastral growth, and it also seems most pronounced on the vertebrals, less so on the costals and often negligible on the marginals. That would indicate environmental conditions more than genetic modification.



Interesting.. I would argue that I have seen a shift in proliferation across the entire shell as a result of the thermal load of unfiltered artificial emissions emitted from the bulbs in high powers.. And I have observed coconut oil foster a alpha keratin proliferation and since I stopped for the last few months, I have noticed a rapid proliferation of beta keratin which has resulted in abnormal banding along the once vastly grown alpha keratin.. Pictured here. 







This banding can be seen kinda like peak and valley along the hinge regions. Notice how in some. Spots it is much more raised.. That is a result of hot spots.. Spots that occur from the heating of the tortoise under these crap lamps. This is showing me direct evidence as to why I feel these hot spots mold proliferation rations of the alpha/bets proteins. You can visibly see these raised spots and when I line up her shell and the thermal images I have of her heating up. The hot spots in the thermal image almost perfectly overlap with the raised spots shown in these pictures in the hinge regions of the scutes. This abnormal reaction is completely absent in wild heated tortoises under the water filtered sun. Completely absent. This I feel is a root cause of pyramiding of tortoises in indoor habitats. Exposure to these unfiltered emissions and the heating patterns that occur on the shell. Alpha keratin heats up faster then beta keratin. So the hinge regions are prime for hot spots. Since they are most exposed. This environment stressing cue activates the mRNA expression in the core box of the beta keratin, to protect the alpha keratin from water evaporation which is vital for its survival. So as shown in the pictures the spots of the most stressed hot spots are built up first which resulted in more beta keratin, which is observable in the peaks of the scutes hinges region of my tortoise. 

To further support. Pyramiding is seen in the top scutes more often because of the direct impact artificial lighting has on those scutes in relation to all the others who are not in direct path of these emissions. And shown in research these proliferations occur in cycles based if tort hibernate or not. And eCh cycle can be impacted differently if environmental stressors are present. Which would break up the need to have it effect the whole tort once modification has occurs..


----------



## glitch4200

KevinGG said:


> Yes, everyone, myself included, was more interested in being correct than actually learning. Turned into an "i think" conversation based on emotion.
> 
> Interesting. I hadn't heard of the adults pyramiding. Can you speak more on the "universal response" your sister would have expected to see?
> 
> I fear the problem with these conversations always comes down to hypothesis as the studies are rarely adequate. I'm going to do some more research though, so I can at least hypothesize intelligently on this.



It does really come down to the ability to synthesize a grounded hypothesis, in the science we have available to ground it in. That is what I am doing. I am grounding my hypothesis into many different areas of study. By using different researched ideas and merging them together to create a well constructed and grounded hypothesis about an idea. My idea was coconut oil at first. But after creating this coconut oil hypothesis. I have also tip toed on synthesizing a hypothesis for the foundations of pyramiding. I also have dipped my toes in the fields of microbiology, chemistry and other experimental fields of research: like the field experimental dermatology in zoology journals. 

People seem to forget that researching a complex hypothesis between parts of something, requires good data that is repeated with similar results found, for it to be accepted by others. They who value the objective paradigm of science in our current framework value good data. The problem lies in finding a hypothesis good enough and we'll grounded enough to go after those data sets.. 

You can not viably test a hypothesis without parameters of variables that inquire what you are specifically looking for.. And you are not going to waste your time looking for and researching parameters of variables that are not well grounded in supported fields of science. It makes if harder for someone to discredit pillars of a synthesis that are grounded in other fields then if you pulled your resesrch from a single field of study. Because to discredit these you need to discredit the resesrch I am pulling from.. Which people are free to do... But good luck replicating and finding faults in the very expensive, complex resesrch done by these researchers. 

A resesrch article is just that.. A piece of data that is collected by researcher(s) from an intelligently thought out set of inquiries about the why and how of something.. 

One of my inquiries is how do I stop artificial infrared emissions from creating the abnormal thermal loads on the keratin frameworks of the shell? 
Answer: water filter the emissions from artificial baking lamps. (this has been my current project) 

My buddy and I have come very close to a working prototype to effectively water filter the infrared emissions that are emitted from basking bulbs. We have created a water filter designed from a. Super expensive medical lamp that is specifically designed to water filter infrared to rehydrate and repair deep tissue tears and cellular healing promotion. 

Coconut oil was never meant to be a solution to a problem. I stumbled upon its proposed benefits because of curiosity into shell dryness and indoor lighting schemes that stemmed because of a thread I read on here from Dr. Frances Baines on unfiltered infrared and what looked to be a plethora of super dry dehydrated tortoises. . I connected the dots of unfiltered infrared and shell dryness. Little did I know I would stumble upon such a wealth of knowledge about our beloved tortoises. I took a risk.. And by taking that risk I told myself I would be the absolute most logical and safe I could be to make sure my torts were happy and healthy. 

The solution is water filtering infrared specifically along the bands of h2o interaction.. Coconut oil has possible benefits outside of indoor habitats like antimicrobial ability, but if we can get rid of unfiltered infrared that is emitted from these bulbs by effectively filtering them with water to create and mimic what they get in the wild outdoors, we wouldn't need to use the oil indoors to help counteract these harmful emissions.


----------



## Markw84

glitch4200 said:


> It does really come down to the ability to synthesize a grounded hypothesis, in the science we have available to ground it in. That is what I am doing. I am grounding my hypothesis into many different areas of study. By using different researched ideas and merging them together to create a well constructed and grounded hypothesis about an idea. My idea was coconut oil at first. But after creating this coconut oil hypothesis. I have also tip toed on synthesizing a hypothesis for the foundations of pyramiding. I also have dipped my toes in the fields of microbiology, chemistry and other experimental fields of research: like the field experimental dermatology in zoology journals.
> 
> People seem to forget that researching a complex hypothesis between parts of something, requires good data that is repeated with similar results found, for it to be accepted by others. They who value the objective paradigm of science in our current framework value good data. The problem lies in finding a hypothesis good enough and we'll grounded enough to go after those data sets..
> 
> You can not viably test a hypothesis without parameters of variables that inquire what you are specifically looking for.. And you are not going to waste your time looking for and researching parameters of variables that are not well grounded in supported fields of science. It makes if harder for someone to discredit pillars of a synthesis that are grounded in other fields then if you pulled your resesrch from a single field of study. Because to discredit these you need to discredit the resesrch I am pulling from.. Which people are free to do... But good luck replicating and finding faults in the very expensive, complex resesrch done by these researchers.
> 
> A resesrch article is just that.. A piece of data that is collected by researcher(s) from an intelligently thought out set of inquiries about the why and how of something..
> 
> One of my inquiries is how do I stop artificial infrared emissions from creating the abnormal thermal loads on the keratin frameworks of the shell?
> Answer: water filter the emissions from artificial baking lamps. (this has been my current project)
> 
> My buddy and I have come very close to a working prototype to effectively water filter the infrared emissions that are emitted from basking bulbs. We have created a water filter designed from a. Super expensive medical lamp that is specifically designed to water filter infrared to rehydrate and repair deep tissue tears and cellular healing promotion.
> 
> Coconut oil was never meant to be a solution to a problem. I stumbled upon its proposed benefits because of curiosity into shell dryness and indoor lighting schemes that stemmed because of a thread I read on here from Dr. Frances Baines on unfiltered infrared and what looked to be a plethora of super dry dehydrated tortoises. . I connected the dots of unfiltered infrared and shell dryness. Little did I know I would stumble upon such a wealth of knowledge about our beloved tortoises. I took a risk.. And by taking that risk I told myself I would be the absolute most logical and safe I could be to make sure my torts were happy and healthy.
> 
> The solution is water filtering infrared specifically along the bands of h2o interaction.. Coconut oil has possible benefits outside of indoor habitats like antimicrobial ability, but if we can get rid of unfiltered infrared that is emitted from these bulbs by effectively filtering them with water to create and mimic what they get in the wild outdoors, we wouldn't need to use the oil indoors to help counteract these harmful emissions.



Glitch - Don't have time to comment all I would like on this now. I disagree with your two types of pyramiding. I will reply to that later. But, I would love to see a comparison of infrared images of a tortoise basking under incandescent vs. basking in natural sunlight. Also would be interested in one heated by a CHE or radiant heat panel. I think a lot of the concern about H2O filtered IR is most simply concern that should be directed to Near-IR. If you could have access to those images I would show you what I mean, or show you I am wrong.


----------



## Anyfoot

@glitch4200 

What do you think would happen if I Only coconuted the same half of a tortoise and subjected it to dry heat?


----------



## SULCY

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/baskinghealth.html some more info on basking.


----------



## Kevinrrussell

I use the oil once or twice as week my Red Foot stan.lee doesn't care. I adopted her from a family who rescued her from a women. She has pyrmiding from lack of humidity early on. The coconut oil allows moisture to hold water in..I 'll see in the next few years. I love the shiny look


----------



## KBeam

SULCY said:


> http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/baskinghealth.html some more info on basking.



Good article!


----------



## Jay Bagley

First pic raised in open table for 2 and a half years with no coconut oil(no soaks or misting as well. Second picture roughly five months later using coconut oil( Nature's Zone shell saver) in same open top enclosure heated by to mercury vapor bulbs. It seems to help, at least a little.


----------



## Kevinrrussell

Jay Bagley said:


> First pic raised in open table for 2 and a half years with no coconut oil(no soaks or misting as well. Second picture roughly five months later using coconut oil( Nature's Zone shell saver) in same open top enclosure heated by to mercury vapor bulbs. It seems to help, at least a little.
> View attachment 238488
> View attachment 238489


Looks great.. I use coconut oil my self for everything. My Red Footed Tortoise when young was hit..vet was hoping accidents but to me looks like a screw drive or a pick...the wounds on shell are way healed ..the family I got her from.. thought it was lack of moisture but my and vet I see the marks. So the family in my eyes are heros.. for saving her for me. The coconut seems to allow even growth. I use it between 2 and 3 days.. my outside enclosure is for weekends only ..I bring her in..the food I leave her attracts ants.. so food just the plants.. is offered.


----------



## tinytortoise

Thanks @glitch4200 for all your work! 3 days later and I've read this entire post. I look forward to further info on how we might filter our Infrared Bulbs!

I'll likely use coconut, albeit sparingly, and afterwards cleanly; when the need arises (dry situations).


----------



## Cathie G

glitch4200 said:


> Hi everyone, so after reading a couple threads about conditioners for the shell of our tortoises I might have a good debatable topic here. I decided to do a little research about cold pressed extra virgin coconut oil. After carefully considering my sources. I have concluded the following: this oil is antibacterial, anti fungal, anti viral, anti inflammatory, unique fatty acids that penatrate to the micro level quickly giving efficient moisture , a natural sunscreen spf 10 (which blocks 90 percent uvb), it doesn't allow substrate to stick, it doesn't mess with thermoregulation as far as I can tell after multiple days of temp taking after first application, and lastly it makes one hell of a shine.
> I am sure some of you see a particular issue of this being a natural sunscreen that blocks 90 percent of the thing our tortoises need the most of for proper bone development and overall health. But my question is does my little guy get more benefit from a weekly application of extra virgin coconut oil then not applying it?
> My goal is longevity he is indoor captive and will be for the foreseeable future, mvb bulbs literally suck the moisture right out of our tortoises shells (got that info from a thread here) and being exposed to a mvb constantly day in and day out constantly sucking that moisture out isn't the best. Is there a way as tortoise keepers who can't bring outside at all times to help prevent some of that moisture loss? is it possible to give them some protection from the constant baking lights? I understand the importance of humidity and lighting needed for optimal health but is it also doing them a disservice by not giving them some sort of protection from the baking lights? Allowing their shells to stay moisturized on a table top setting without plucking the moisture from deep within? Of course moderation is absolute. Too much application and you block the good out. I am very curious to all your opinions.
> 
> So I decided to give it a try about a week ago, my Russian is in perfect health after getting a complete checkup with x-rays. So his shell has a small dent (possibly from shipping) but otherwise looks pretty smooth. After I bathed him, I applied a thin coat of extra virgin coconut oil, pretty instantaneously I saw a magnificent shine. I wanted to see how much would initially get absorbed which was quite a bit.. I let it sit for about a minute before I wiped it off with a super extra soft micro fiber cloth. He enjoyed every second of the massage too.. (went to school for massage therapy)even tortoises appreciate a good massage haha. 5 days later and it still has that healthy shine just not as vibrant as when first applied. This is very debatable as I know a lot of you have raised many many clutches of perfectly healthy tortoises without any topical oils, and are set in your opinions so please let's hear it  and if am wrong in any of my information please correct me. Pictures provided


this is just my opinion. After a nice soak something to seal the moisture in is nice and good for every One but if it's done heavily...thats iffy. Another really light oil is extra virgin olive oil.I've been using a shell conditioner from a pet shop. It works but I would rather do an oil that is always new and clean and always available.


----------



## jsheffield

I'm interested in this topic and tried to find a link in this voluminous thread to information about UV uptake in skin versus carapace, but was unable to find it ... can someone provide a link to information about this?

Jamie


----------



## Markw84

Previtamin D3 is only synthesized in the skin. Good blood flow is needed, and a relatively thin layer of lighter colored skin is better. Even the scales on the front of a tortoise's legs will prevent any D3 synthesis as the UVB cannot penetrate. The shell has no way for this to occur. When tortoises bask, they stretch out their necks, expose the backs of their legs and upper legs to get as much of that thinner, lighter skin exposed. The shell is actually quite good at absorbing heat and their main method of thermoregulation is the absorption through the shell. But no UVB absorption there.

Perhaps a browse through this exhaustive info would be of interest to you...

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/skintests.htm


----------



## jsheffield

Markw84 said:


> Previtamin D3 is only synthesized in the skin. Good blood flow is needed, and a relatively thin layer of lighter colored skin is better. Even the scales on the front of a tortoise's legs will prevent any D3 synthesis as the UVB cannot penetrate. The shell has no way for this to occur. When tortoises bask, the stretch out their necks, expose the backs of their legs and upper legs to get as much of that thinner, lighter skin exposed. The shell is actually quite good at absorbing heat and their main method of thermoregulation is the absorption through the shell. But no UVB absorption there.
> 
> Perhaps a browse through this exhaustive info would be of interest to you...
> 
> http://www.uvguide.co.uk/skintests.htm



Thanks!

Jamie


----------



## Cathie G

Markw84 said:


> Previtamin D3 is only synthesized in the skin. Good blood flow is needed, and a relatively thin layer of lighter colored skin is better. Even the scales on the front of a tortoise's legs will prevent any D3 synthesis as the UVB cannot penetrate. The shell has no way for this to occur. When tortoises bask, they stretch out their necks, expose the backs of their legs and upper legs to get as much of that thinner, lighter skin exposed. The shell is actually quite good at absorbing heat and their main method of thermoregulation is the absorption through the shell. But no UVB absorption there.
> 
> Perhaps a browse through this exhaustive info would be of interest to you...
> 
> http://www.uvguide.co.uk/skintests.htm


Oh me oh my. That's too interesting. Is tanning a protective response to the sun. Even though everything needs some...


----------



## Ray--Opo

Markw84 said:


> Previtamin D3 is only synthesized in the skin. Good blood flow is needed, and a relatively thin layer of lighter colored skin is better. Even the scales on the front of a tortoise's legs will prevent any D3 synthesis as the UVB cannot penetrate. The shell has no way for this to occur. When tortoises bask, they stretch out their necks, expose the backs of their legs and upper legs to get as much of that thinner, lighter skin exposed. The shell is actually quite good at absorbing heat and their main method of thermoregulation is the absorption through the shell. But no UVB absorption there.
> 
> Perhaps a browse through this exhaustive info would be of interest to you...
> 
> http://www.uvguide.co.uk/skintests.htm


Thanks for that info 
Learned something new or maybe I learned it before and forgot. Anyways great info


----------



## Markw84

Cathie G said:


> Oh me oh my. That's too interesting. Is tanning a protective response to the sun. Even though everything needs some...



Yes. Tanning is your skin producing melanin to darken it and protect it from the excessive bioactive uv exposure. The darker tanned skin lets less uv through protecting the skin. As you tan you are protected more from sunburn for example.


----------



## Cathie G

Markw84 said:


> Yes. Tanning is your skin producing melanin to darken it and protect it from the excessive bioactive uv exposure. The darker tanned skin lets less uv through protecting the skin. As you tan you are protected more from sunburn for example.


What really makes this even more interesting to me is that I have "tanned leather". I did it the old fashioned way using soap, neatsfoot oil, water and bark. It's kind of the same concept because it's skin. The bark IS what makes the cell membrane impervious to water. I'm probably sounding half coocoo but I believe the 2 concepts are related somehow. The tanning leather episode in my life was a homeschool science project for my 2 teenage boys. They loved it almost as much as me. How this would relate to a tortoise I've yet to see. Thanks for answering.


----------



## glitch4200

Hehe [emoji12]. Long time no see tortoise forum... I have been evolving in the shadows. 

Started my own research and development company.. 

Writing literature for publication to scholarly journals. 

School. 

Being a father to my son who is now a wonderful crazy toddler... 

More research... building my website. You know... adulting hard and with passion. 

Bills gotta get paid. [emoji12]

But in my long absence. 


With all my crAziness, I have kept up my coconut oil research and have expanded it around the world. I was and for most part still am, really active in Facebook groups for awhile promoting coconut oil and its use with appropriate tortoise care. I can say with decent certainty that close to 6 different species of tortoise now have coconut applied ritually to the shell under a multitude of parameters, from around the world. 

I get messages all the time from people in different countries, asking about how to use it. And I explain it.

Each geo-climate, habitat set up, and lighting scheme in indoor habitats; all seem to have a beneficial postulate for coconut oil to be used. 

I am short on time currently but I have literally 5 pages of updates to explain on here about what I have found thus far with coconut oil use and my tortoises. 

I am here to show updates photos. 

I will be back soonish to type all my findings thus far. 

Lots of theory and hypotheticals to go over.. 

I want you to know that with all of the earlier applications I did I decided a long period of non application was necessary to see the effects of the unfiltered infrared on newly expressed alpha keratin after a major growth cycle. Basically I wanted to see what happens to fresh alpha keratin after a growth cycle under the lamps. 

I proposed that I would see epigentic reaction in the core box in the beta keratin in the form of uneven beta to alpha proliferation ratios. But only those areas that experienced hot spotting. Hot spotting is when a piece of keratin heats up super fast compared to the surrounding tissue. 

I wanted to see the mechanisms involved in coconut oil and how it worked. But in order to do that. I needed a tortoise who grew hyper cycled alpha keratin during a specific growth phases between young juvenile and young adult. Unknowingly to my pleasure, napebbles was young juvenile when I got her and grew massively. This allowed coconut oil to help promote alpha ratios. By lowering the pH in the microbiological environment where the keratin proliferates. Since coconut oil decomposes and not absorbs into the shell, the decomposing oil exerts biochemical reactionaries to the keratin over time based on its decomposition stage. This is a push/pull effect. I’ll explain at a later time. But I def have teased out some interesting mechanisms. 

Re-cap from previous post. Over application will cause too much build up of organic acids like Lauric acid. Which can be detrimental to the growth ratios and actually suppress proliferation. I noted this in one of my last updates way back when. This is why it’s mandatory to scrub once a week if you apply the oil regularly. The oil gets cleaned off at that point thus keeping an equalized environment for proliferation and protein folding. Nibbles was in an slow growth cycle because he’s an adult. He’s not getting any bigger. When I applied back in the day 4x a week. Their was a negative reaction to the keratin and it suppressed and actually dissolved new growth. I had to stop applications for 6 months at that point in order to see if growth returned. It returned and without problems. He’s getting applications again currently. Both tortoises are. 



Here are both nibbles my male Russian. And napebbles my female Russian. 


Napebbles. 









Nibbles 









i will be back with updates on literature soon. 


Cheers Tortoise Forum


----------



## Cathie G

glitch4200 said:


> Hehe [emoji12]. Long time no see tortoise forum... I have been evolving in the shadows.
> 
> Started my own research and development company..
> 
> Writing literature for publication to scholarly journals.
> 
> School.
> 
> Being a father to my son who is now a wonderful crazy toddler...
> 
> More research... building my website. You know... adulting hard and with passion.
> 
> Bills gotta get paid. [emoji12]
> 
> But in my long absence.
> 
> 
> With all my crAziness, I have kept up my coconut oil research and have expanded it around the world. I was and for most part still am, really active in Facebook groups for awhile promoting coconut oil and its use with appropriate tortoise care. I can say with decent certainty that close to 6 different species of tortoise now have coconut applied ritually to the shell under a multitude of parameters, from around the world.
> 
> I get messages all the time from people in different countries, asking about how to use it. And I explain it.
> 
> Each geo-climate, habitat set up, and lighting scheme in indoor habitats; all seem to have a beneficial postulate for coconut oil to be used.
> 
> I am short on time currently but I have literally 5 pages of updates to explain on here about what I have found thus far with coconut oil use and my tortoises.
> 
> I am here to show updates photos.
> 
> I will be back soonish to type all my findings thus far.
> 
> Lots of theory and hypotheticals to go over..
> 
> I want you to know that with all of the earlier applications I did I decided a long period of non application was necessary to see the effects of the unfiltered infrared on newly expressed alpha keratin after a major growth cycle. Basically I wanted to see what happens to fresh alpha keratin after a growth cycle under the lamps.
> 
> I proposed that I would see epigentic reaction in the core box in the beta keratin in the form of uneven beta to alpha proliferation ratios. But only those areas that experienced hot spotting. Hot spotting is when a piece of keratin heats up super fast compared to the surrounding tissue.
> 
> I wanted to see the mechanisms involved in coconut oil and how it worked. But in order to do that. I needed a tortoise who grew hyper cycled alpha keratin during a specific growth phases between young juvenile and young adult. Unknowingly to my pleasure, napebbles was young juvenile when I got her and grew massively. This allowed coconut oil to help promote alpha ratios. By lowering the pH in the microbiological environment where the keratin proliferates. Since coconut oil decomposes and not absorbs into the shell, the decomposing oil exerts biochemical reactionaries to the keratin over time based on its decomposition stage. This is a push/pull effect. I’ll explain at a later time. But I def have teased out some interesting mechanisms.
> 
> Re-cap from previous post. Over application will cause too much build up of organic acids like Lauric acid. Which can be detrimental to the growth ratios and actually suppress proliferation. I noted this in one of my last updates way back when. This is why it’s mandatory to scrub once a week if you apply the oil regularly. The oil gets cleaned off at that point thus keeping an equalized environment for proliferation and protein folding. Nibbles was in an slow growth cycle because he’s an adult. He’s not getting any bigger. When I applied back in the day 4x a week. Their was a negative reaction to the keratin and it suppressed and actually dissolved new growth. I had to stop applications for 6 months at that point in order to see if growth returned. It returned and without problems. He’s getting applications again currently. Both tortoises are.
> 
> 
> 
> Here are both nibbles my male Russian. And napebbles my female Russian.
> 
> 
> Napebbles.
> View attachment 270677
> 
> View attachment 270678
> 
> View attachment 270679
> View attachment 270680
> View attachment 270681
> 
> 
> Nibbles
> View attachment 270682
> 
> View attachment 270683
> View attachment 270684
> View attachment 270685
> 
> View attachment 270686
> 
> 
> i will be back with updates on literature soon.
> 
> 
> Cheers Tortoise Forum


That was nice. I kind of noticed something like that too with my Russian with coconut oil. Just a tiny bit keeps working for months even when you buff it all off. But it still helps 2 or 3 times a year. Maybe it imparts some oil he's missing in his diet. I'll be looking forward to when you post.


----------



## Ray--Opo

glitch4200 said:


> Hehe [emoji12]. Long time no see tortoise forum... I have been evolving in the shadows.
> 
> Started my own research and development company..
> 
> Writing literature for publication to scholarly journals.
> 
> School.
> 
> Being a father to my son who is now a wonderful crazy toddler...
> 
> More research... building my website. You know... adulting hard and with passion.
> 
> Bills gotta get paid. [emoji12]
> 
> But in my long absence.
> 
> 
> With all my crAziness, I have kept up my coconut oil research and have expanded it around the world. I was and for most part still am, really active in Facebook groups for awhile promoting coconut oil and its use with appropriate tortoise care. I can say with decent certainty that close to 6 different species of tortoise now have coconut applied ritually to the shell under a multitude of parameters, from around the world.
> 
> I get messages all the time from people in different countries, asking about how to use it. And I explain it.
> 
> Each geo-climate, habitat set up, and lighting scheme in indoor habitats; all seem to have a beneficial postulate for coconut oil to be used.
> 
> I am short on time currently but I have literally 5 pages of updates to explain on here about what I have found thus far with coconut oil use and my tortoises.
> 
> I am here to show updates photos.
> 
> I will be back soonish to type all my findings thus far.
> 
> Lots of theory and hypotheticals to go over..
> 
> I want you to know that with all of the earlier applications I did I decided a long period of non application was necessary to see the effects of the unfiltered infrared on newly expressed alpha keratin after a major growth cycle. Basically I wanted to see what happens to fresh alpha keratin after a growth cycle under the lamps.
> 
> I proposed that I would see epigentic reaction in the core box in the beta keratin in the form of uneven beta to alpha proliferation ratios. But only those areas that experienced hot spotting. Hot spotting is when a piece of keratin heats up super fast compared to the surrounding tissue.
> 
> I wanted to see the mechanisms involved in coconut oil and how it worked. But in order to do that. I needed a tortoise who grew hyper cycled alpha keratin during a specific growth phases between young juvenile and young adult. Unknowingly to my pleasure, napebbles was young juvenile when I got her and grew massively. This allowed coconut oil to help promote alpha ratios. By lowering the pH in the microbiological environment where the keratin proliferates. Since coconut oil decomposes and not absorbs into the shell, the decomposing oil exerts biochemical reactionaries to the keratin over time based on its decomposition stage. This is a push/pull effect. I’ll explain at a later time. But I def have teased out some interesting mechanisms.
> 
> Re-cap from previous post. Over application will cause too much build up of organic acids like Lauric acid. Which can be detrimental to the growth ratios and actually suppress proliferation. I noted this in one of my last updates way back when. This is why it’s mandatory to scrub once a week if you apply the oil regularly. The oil gets cleaned off at that point thus keeping an equalized environment for proliferation and protein folding. Nibbles was in an slow growth cycle because he’s an adult. He’s not getting any bigger. When I applied back in the day 4x a week. Their was a negative reaction to the keratin and it suppressed and actually dissolved new growth. I had to stop applications for 6 months at that point in order to see if growth returned. It returned and without problems. He’s getting applications again currently. Both tortoises are.
> 
> 
> 
> Here are both nibbles my male Russian. And napebbles my female Russian.
> 
> 
> Napebbles.
> View attachment 270677
> 
> View attachment 270678
> 
> View attachment 270679
> View attachment 270680
> View attachment 270681
> 
> 
> Nibbles
> View attachment 270682
> 
> View attachment 270683
> View attachment 270684
> View attachment 270685
> 
> View attachment 270686
> 
> 
> i will be back with updates on literature soon.
> 
> 
> Cheers Tortoise Forum


Thanks for that info. I will have to read it 5 times to comprehend half of it. 
Great job!


----------



## method89

@glitch4200 any more updates for us?


----------



## bluewolf

It does not clog up their pores? New here but did read that that could happen somewhere on this forum. Confused now


----------



## jsheffield

bluewolf said:


> It does not clog up their pores? New here but did read that that could happen somewhere on this forum. Confused now


It's a debated subject, hence this thread's placement....

Jamie


----------



## bluewolf

I definitely want to hear more about the effect of direct bright light
on the shell. I was worried about that: I have been pointing the light
not at him but beside him with 6 inches or so between him and the heat source.
I don’t really know what I am doing but it was cold this morning so had to get the temp up. I soak him daily and mist him at night

laura


----------



## Tortoise MasterMan

Does anyone have a recommendation of how many times to apply a week?


----------



## Anyfoot

Tortoise MasterMan said:


> Does anyone have a recommendation of how many times to apply a week?


Yep. None. I’ve proved this to myself. With a group of babies you still get a degree of pyramiding. From none to minor pyramiding. I think it’s a combination of hydration and protein


----------



## jsheffield

Tortoise MasterMan said:


> Does anyone have a recommendation of how many times to apply a week?



I use it on my torts once a week or so.

Jamie


----------



## Cathie G

Tortoise MasterMan said:


> Does anyone have a recommendation of how many times to apply a week?


I can only tell you what I do. I find with my adult 17 year old Russian that once a week would be too much. I only apply it after a rain shower or soak. Then buff it all off. Maybe if you have to use a lot of drying lights or in low humidity they could need more. I just use shell conditioners to hold in some moisture for a while. I'm not an expert though.


----------



## Anyfoot

I’ve tried this. Anyone out there. Try this with northern redfoots. You’ll get mixed results. Forget Brazilians. They grow smooth easily. The northern redfoots are a pain to grow smooth. I’m guessing sullies and Indians are the same.


----------



## Yvonne G

Anyfoot said:


> I’ve tried this. Anyone out there. Try this with northern redfoots. You’ll get mixed results. Forget Brazilians. They grow smooth easily. The northern redfoots are a pain to grow smooth. I’m guessing sullies and Indians are the same.


Craig!!!! Where the heck ya been????


----------



## Anyfoot

Yvonne G said:


> Craig!!!! Where the heck ya been????


 Busy as usual. I’m hoping 2020 everything will be sorted regarding my house, then I can concentrate on torts again. 
Yvonne. I know many will disagree. But I am absolutely convinced these animals need high protein at a young age. Yes hydration too, but if I don’t feed protein they pyramid at 6 months onwards. I have literally tried everything and I’m getting mixed results. You just can not keep redfoots wetter than I have and still got pyramiding torts. I think they all species eat protein in the form of bugs, insects, slugs and fungi when very young. These foods also coincide with wetter times.


----------



## Anyfoot

@Yvonne G merry Christmas btw.


----------



## Beasty_Artemis

I just applied oil to my two new hatchlings today! Such vibrant markings. I resisted putting oil on the shell of my first redfoot for the first year or two, but l definately regret that now. These little guys are definitely getting oil on them - asap!


----------



## Crush da Baum

Will coconut oil leave a suffocating residue?


----------



## Macca33

Anyfoot said:


> I’ve tried this. Anyone out there. Try this with northern redfoots. You’ll get mixed results. Forget Brazilians. They grow smooth easily. The northern redfoots are a pain to grow smooth. I’m guessing sullies and Indians are the same.



I realize I am replying to a post that is over a year old, but I thought it worth the bump--- and as I am fairly certain I have a northern redfoot (Venezuelan variety)… and _some_ experience with using coconut oil I thought I would chime in.

When I got my redfoot, Raph, about a year ago he (she?) was already a juvenile. His shell was pretty smooth but he had a puncture in his shell between the scutes roughly above the left “shoulder.” It seemed hollow, jagged. The puncture did not change one bit for months under “proper” environmental conditions and diet (varied diet of the recommended sort, lots of greens, mazuri, occasional proteins, fruits, etc. 80-85% humidity and temps in the low 80s). If the puncture did change or heal in that time, it was barely noticeable.

As I understand it, shell damage such as punctures takes A LONG TIME to heal.

Then I started applying coconut oil to the puncture, letting it “soak in and melt” before wiping the excess away but leaving most of it in the puncture. This seemed to activate something. The scutes around the puncture and the skin below seemed to be responding in some way (I have not had time to research specifics). Over time, I developed a routine where I skipped applying it excessively into the puncture but would put a teaspoon or so of coconut oil in Raph’s bath water and scrub his shell with a toothbrush and the oil. And also making sure that I scrubbed the puncture gently with the oil. I did this weekly then every-other week.

The result over a few, 6 months maybe?, has been remarkable. The puncture is filling in and noticeably healing. Quite amazing really. I will try to post some pics in the near future for anyone interested.

BTW, I have not been on the forum for almost a year and I have missed it. I hope all are well.

Warmly,

Dan


----------



## Jan A

Macca33 said:


> I realize I am replying to a post that is over a year old, but I thought it worth the bump--- and as I am fairly certain I have a northern redfoot (Venezuelan variety)… and _some_ experience with using coconut oil I thought I would chime in.
> 
> When I got my redfoot, Raph, about a year ago he (she?) was already a juvenile. His shell was pretty smooth but he had a puncture in his shell between the scutes roughly above the left “shoulder.” It seemed hollow, jagged. The puncture did not change one bit for months under “proper” environmental conditions and diet (varied diet of the recommended sort, lots of greens, mazuri, occasional proteins, fruits, etc. 80-85% humidity and temps in the low 80s). If the puncture did change or heal in that time, it was barely noticeable.
> 
> As I understand it, shell damage such as punctures takes A LONG TIME to heal.
> 
> Then I started applying coconut oil to the puncture, letting it “soak in and melt” before wiping the excess away but leaving most of it in the puncture. This seemed to activate something. The scutes around the puncture and the skin below seemed to be responding in some way (I have not had time to research specifics). Over time, I developed a routine where I skipped applying it excessively into the puncture but would put a teaspoon or so of coconut oil in Raph’s bath water and scrub his shell with a toothbrush and the oil. And also making sure that I scrubbed the puncture gently with the oil. I did this weekly then every-other week.
> 
> The result over a few, 6 months maybe?, has been remarkable. The puncture is filling in and noticeably healing. Quite amazing really. I will try to post some pics in the near future for anyone interested.
> 
> BTW, I have not been on the forum for almost a year and I have missed it. I hope all are well.
> 
> Warmly,
> 
> Dan


Definitely post before & after photos if you've got them!! Interesting theory & application of that theory.


----------



## Kothy

I use the one shown from Amazon about once every two months, to my two Cherry heads, they love the rub down. But what i love the most is the little TINY bugs don't bother there shells anymore. They have stopped invaliding them. I know the bugs are harmless, they just creep me out. Both my babies are Happy and healthy and I have done this for a year.


----------



## Cathie G

Macca33 said:


> I realize I am replying to a post that is over a year old, but I thought it worth the bump--- and as I am fairly certain I have a northern redfoot (Venezuelan variety)… and _some_ experience with using coconut oil I thought I would chime in.
> 
> When I got my redfoot, Raph, about a year ago he (she?) was already a juvenile. His shell was pretty smooth but he had a puncture in his shell between the scutes roughly above the left “shoulder.” It seemed hollow, jagged. The puncture did not change one bit for months under “proper” environmental conditions and diet (varied diet of the recommended sort, lots of greens, mazuri, occasional proteins, fruits, etc. 80-85% humidity and temps in the low 80s). If the puncture did change or heal in that time, it was barely noticeable.
> 
> As I understand it, shell damage such as punctures takes A LONG TIME to heal.
> 
> Then I started applying coconut oil to the puncture, letting it “soak in and melt” before wiping the excess away but leaving most of it in the puncture. This seemed to activate something. The scutes around the puncture and the skin below seemed to be responding in some way (I have not had time to research specifics). Over time, I developed a routine where I skipped applying it excessively into the puncture but would put a teaspoon or so of coconut oil in Raph’s bath water and scrub his shell with a toothbrush and the oil. And also making sure that I scrubbed the puncture gently with the oil. I did this weekly then every-other week.
> 
> The result over a few, 6 months maybe?, has been remarkable. The puncture is filling in and noticeably healing. Quite amazing really. I will try to post some pics in the near future for anyone interested.
> 
> BTW, I have not been on the forum for almost a year and I have missed it. I hope all are well.
> 
> Warmly,
> 
> Dan


I've seen something like that too. I don't really use it often and if I do it's a little like you do. I kinda think it helps to get them cleaner with a soak and a toothbrush. But one thing I noticed that was really nice was it is helpful in healing shell problems. Mine had some when I got him. In a healthy tortoise I can see how it could be too much because it softens and causes a tiny bit of swelling. In a tortoise with problems it was a positive thing for me.?


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## Macca33

I collected some photos today (harder than I thought, damn phone storage, lol) and here is the photo timeline of what I saw: 
Here he is in the pet shop, end of January 2020


Kinda hard to see the puncture... here it is after I brought him home sometime in feb 2020:



Not too long after this photo I started with the coconut oil. Then I noticed this:


You'll notice the light-colored tissue. This is not an infection. It did not smell at all. In the next pic you'll see the light, soft tissue was absorbed or hardened into the shell somewhat:


These should give you an idea of the process. The puncture seemed to fluctuate between the stages shown in the last two pics. 

Now here is a pic from this month:




In less than one year the puncture is nearly gone. I think it's pretty amazing. However, I was not being "scientific" in trying to isolate the effect of coconut oil- there were other variables too. I also upped Raph's proteins and fruits...thinking that fats, proteins, and high-calorie food would provide needed energy and nutrients for healing.

You will also likely notice that Raph has pyramiding...not extreme but his shell was noticeably smoother when he was younger. But the puncture is basically healed. 

For the heck of it, I'll post just two more pics shortly- one of his smooth shell and one from very recently. 

I welcome any and all comments/discussion. I think this is all very interesting. Thanks for reading!!


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## Cathie G

Macca33 said:


> I collected some photos today (harder than I thought, damn phone storage, lol) and here is the photo timeline of what I saw:
> Here he is in the pet shop, end of January 2020
> View attachment 318814
> 
> Kinda hard to see the puncture... here it is after I brought him home sometime in feb 2020:
> View attachment 318815
> 
> 
> Not too long after this photo I started with the coconut oil. Then I noticed this:
> View attachment 318816
> 
> You'll notice the light-colored tissue. This is not an infection. It did not smell at all. In the next pic you'll see the light, soft tissue was absorbed or hardened into the shell somewhat:
> View attachment 318817
> 
> These should give you an idea of the process. The puncture seemed to fluctuate between the stages shown in the last two pics.
> 
> Now here is a pic from this month:
> View attachment 318818
> 
> 
> 
> In less than one year the puncture is nearly gone. I think it's pretty amazing. However, I was not being "scientific" in trying to isolate the effect of coconut oil- there were other variables too. I also upped Raph's proteins and fruits...thinking that fats, proteins, and high-calorie food would provide needed energy and nutrients for healing.
> 
> You will also likely notice that Raph has pyramiding...not extreme but his shell was noticeably smoother when he was younger. But the puncture is basically healed.
> 
> For the heck of it, I'll post just two more pics shortly- one of his smooth shell and one from very recently.
> 
> I welcome any and all comments/discussion. I think this is all very interesting. Thanks for reading!!


It takes both care of a wound and extra nutrition for any animal to heal including us. Just my opinion ?


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## Macca33

Okay, here are three pics. First one just after bringing Raph home. The last two are from today, you can see the pyramiding but I wouldn't say it looks extreme...

youngling Raph:




And here are two from today:







In looking at the before and after pics, you can almost see where/how the pyramiding will take shape...it is already slightly indicated in his shell when he was younger. 

As many have suggested, I think it is partly genetic, but also likely due to diet and rate of growth. Someone on the forum compared it to a "high resolution 3D printed image" versus a "low resolution 3D printed image" and suggested that it has more to do with the speed/rate of growth. Fast growth (low res) will cause pyramiding versus slow growth over longer time (high res) will look smoother. wish I knew who it was off the top of my head. But I like that theory...it seems to make sense. 

With that, I don't think coconut oil prevents pyramiding; but I do see how it helps with shell health and healing- based on my experience in having a tort only one year. I would recommend tort owners keep some on hand.


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## Macca33

Cathie G said:


> It takes both care of a wound and extra nutrition for any animal to heal including us. Just my opinion ?



Absolutely, I agree 100%!!


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