# We need a "no holds barred" section



## Az tortoise compound (Jul 4, 2011)

For grown ups that can handle a heated debate. It's getting old seeing all the mod deletions (however necessary they think it is)

I feel I gain more knowledge from a real debate...not censored...I do disagree with name calling but I am a bigboy and can handle it just fine.

What say you?


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## John (Jul 4, 2011)

that gets my vote


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## jaizei (Jul 4, 2011)

I don't think it could be confined to one section of the forum, there would be some bleed through and it would poison the rest of the forum. I think the easier fix would be for everyone involved to act like grownups and be the bigger person.


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## terryo (Jul 4, 2011)

I belong to many forums, and there are lots of debates. There's NO name calling, everyone still likes each other, they act like adults, and they all respect each other's opinions. I don't understand why it can't be the same here. It seems like if someone on this forum doesn't like another person, they go after them, and try to discredit everything they post, even if it's not on the debate section. We already have a debate section, so why can't everyone just be civil on there?


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## Jacqui (Jul 4, 2011)

Az tortoise compound said:


> For grown ups that can handle a heated debate.
> 
> What say you?



I say given your first prerequisite, you won't get most to be allowed to post. That's the current problem, we have members who are suppose to be adults, but can't or choose not to act like adults. 




terryo said:


> I belong to many forums, and there are lots of debates. There's NO name calling, everyone still likes each other, they act like adults, and they all respect each other's opinions. I don't understand why it can't be the same here. It seems like if someone on this forum doesn't like another person, they go after them, and try to discredit everything they post, even if it's not on the debate section. We already have a debate section, so why can't everyone just be civil on there?


Well said!


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## coreyc (Jul 4, 2011)

terryo said:


> I belong to many forums, and there are lots of debates. There's NO name calling, everyone still likes each other, they act like adults, and they all respect each other's opinions. I don't understand why it can't be the same here. It seems like if someone on this forum doesn't like another person, they go after them, and try to discredit everything they post, even if it's not on the debate section. We already have a debate section, so why can't everyone just be civil on there?



Yep I agree with that  if you disagree or dont like the post ignore it an move on it's getting old all the bickering let's get along people


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## OllieInAZ (Jul 4, 2011)

I welcome a mod-less area. I will not participate in this forum while good members (sometimes behaving badly) are censored. There is a wealth of info here and valuable members none of which needs their comments edited. 

If the mods here disagree with freedom of speech I offer my help in setting up an alternative forum for the heated debates.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 4, 2011)

The comments that were edited out were derogatory towards other members. I would hope that you would appreciate if we kept unkind comments that were directed towards YOU edited out too.


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## Jacqui (Jul 4, 2011)

OllieInAZ said:


> I welcome a mod-less area. I will not participate in this forum while good members (sometimes behaving badly) are censored. There is a wealth of info here and valuable members none of which needs their comments edited.
> 
> If the mods here disagree with freedom of speech I offer my help in setting up an alternative forum for the heated debates.



Sorry you choose to not participate in this forum.

The Mods have no disagreement with freedom of speech, in fact we bend over backward to allow it. What we do disagree with is folks mocking each other, name calling each other, and doing things only to hurt or try to lessen other members opinions, thoughts and values.


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## wrmitchell22 (Jul 4, 2011)

terryo said:


> I belong to many forums, and there are lots of debates. There's NO name calling, everyone still likes each other, they act like adults, and they all respect each other's opinions. I don't understand why it can't be the same here. It seems like if someone on this forum doesn't like another person, they go after them, and try to discredit everything they post, even if it's not on the debate section. We already have a debate section, so why can't everyone just be civil on there?



I totally agree with you, I got a -1 rating from 2 senior members for sticking up for Tom, because they called him a liar and said he knew nothing about Torts, seriously...... Grow up and act like adults and we can disagree respectfully. some people don't know how to disagree without name calling. What they fail to realize is that acting like a child makes their credibility go to crap! Why would I trust someone that has to belittle others to get their point across. Anyway, I love this forum, but there will always be a few bad apples 



squamata said:


> that gets my vote



Of course it does



emysemys said:


> The comments that were edited out were derogatory towards other members. I would hope that you would appreciate if we kept unkind comments that were directed towards YOU edited out too.



 good for you, keep up the good work, not everyone wants or welcomes te negativity and name calling. I for one appreciate your effort!


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## Missy (Jul 4, 2011)

My main concern with this idea is, there are young people on the forum.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Jul 4, 2011)

Az tortoise compound said:


> For grown ups that can handle a heated debate. It's getting old seeing all the mod deletions (however necessary they think it is)
> 
> I feel I gain more knowledge from a real debate...not censored...I do disagree with name calling but I am a bigboy and can handle it just fine.
> 
> What say you?



Nah, the trolls would leap at the opportunity to post without the moderators around, and would soon be running amok. Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 4, 2011)

Now that everyone has had their say, can we get back on topic?


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## Neal (Jul 4, 2011)

HEY!!!!!!!!!!! Everyone needs to be quiet in here and give ME some points! 


About the subject, I personally think less moderating would make the forum more informative. Getting upset and aggressive with each other is just part of a debate in some cases. My opinion is that if you don't want your opinion questioned or belittled than don't share it. And if you are going to make claims and assertions, people have the right to question that and point out inconsistencies.


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## dmmj (Jul 4, 2011)

Personally I think A no holds barred section would be wrong, it would be a place that might scare newbies off, for fear of angering someone, and there are quite a few people who can't argue without name calling or " implying something" I would continue to be here and offering help and advice with or without the rep points. And if you give someone a neg rep point simply because they did you one is childish and taking back a neg point is cowardice IMHO.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 4, 2011)

Anything not pertaining to the original topic after you were warned to get back on topic has been removed from the thread by Yvonne.


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## Fernando (Jul 4, 2011)

Not that I debate much here, but maybe to satisfy both sides

This section was only allowed to be entered after you've posted here for some time and that administrator or moderator can allow you in, based on your maturity and or number of posts. 

I know it's possible for that type of modification to a forum.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 4, 2011)

So, Fernando, you're saying that it wouldn't be an open forum and no one can see it unless they've been approved to be entered into it? A mod would have to allow you in?

I would go for something like that.


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## Fernando (Jul 4, 2011)

You are correct. And I'm sure the forum member would have to reach a certain number of posts or something of that nature, to be allowed in by Josh or a Mod. This way younger people and newbies can't just join in on the debate.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 4, 2011)

Why don't you sketch something out and post it in the development section. As long as no one can be privvy to it without approval, I think it would be a good idea. Even the mods wouldn't have to go in there if we didn't want to.


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## dmmj (Jul 4, 2011)

Would it be one thread? or a section such as the for sale section. It could be called the no holds barred section.


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## Fernando (Jul 4, 2011)

Well the name I'm sure can be whatever we choose but yes ultimately it would be similar to other sections. And from what I've heard, it can even be made invisible to a non allowed member.


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## dmmj (Jul 4, 2011)

Josh just posted a site announcement about the warning system would the waring system apply in such a section?


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## Fernando (Jul 4, 2011)

dmmj said:


> Josh just posted a site announcement about the warning system would the waring system apply in such a section?



I would assume that something close to a physical threat of some sort, his warnings would apply if not immediate action. But as long as it's tortoise related or a topic the poster has agreed to debate on, I don't see a need for them.


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## dmmj (Jul 4, 2011)

See the main reason I ask is because I quickly see this section resorting to name calling and for some people name calling leads to threats implied or otherwise and with no moderation how would it be policed I don't mean to throw this all at you I am just asking questions like I do in real life, of course I try to answer all the questions asked of me also. Thanks for your time fernandoM I don't mean to be throwing all of this at you.


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## Fernando (Jul 5, 2011)

It's okay David. In regards to threats: The report button should still be available. Obviously if the other person feels he is being threatened he can simply still report the person. This section would also have some sort of disclosure upon agreement of entering. 

Let me type something up in the help feedback section and I guess you can post more questions there. I'll PM Mick since this was initially his idea...or i don't know if I've seen this before so I wouldn't want to take full credit.


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## onarock (Jul 5, 2011)

Its been discussed before. So, would this be a place of no rules? Anything goes type stuff?


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## Fernando (Jul 5, 2011)

The only thing that I'd say has to apply is the threatening of physical harm of some sort. I say that because it can then turn into a liability and I'm sure Josh would not want to get involved with any of that against TFO. But everything else seems fine if the posters agree to debate in that particular section.


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## Jacqui (Jul 5, 2011)

Would their be an additional "penalty" as you might term it, for folks who take conversations and arguments from this very specific, very adults only zone and then repeat it or carry on the arguments, hurts, what have you into other sections? I know we currently have a major problem with folks dragging everything from one thread to another, continuing things in other threads and sections. I can just see the potential for such a section to have some very hurtful, harmful, and explosive issues and behavior spilling over.

I just can see nothing but bad coming from this after watching behavior in areas with rules.


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## stells (Jul 5, 2011)

The other forum i frequent... (notice i have stopped naming it... after i got accused of spamming from a certain member)... has an over 18's section... its mainly used for adult humour... but has also been used for personal problems... and could be used if members wanted to "have it out"... so far we have had no problems with an overspill... of any of the topics... into other parts of the forum... its worked out well...

Maybe us brits are more laid back than i thought


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## Jacqui (Jul 5, 2011)

stells said:


> The other forum i frequent... (notice i have stopped naming it... after i got accused of spamming from a certain member)... has an over 18's section... its mainly used for adult humour... but has also been used for personal problems... and could be used if members wanted to "have it out"... so far we have had no problems with an overspill... of any of the topics... into other parts of the forum... its worked out well...
> 
> Maybe us brits are more laid back than i thought



With an 18 and over section, I have some major worries about those members who allow their under age children free access to their forum accounts. The same would be true of this "free for all section". I would think ANY parent in here would have concerns about "What if my son (or daughter) would open that up and read it." This is a very valid concern and has really been pointed out just this last weekend how easy and how often an under age person can read things not appropriate.


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## stells (Jul 5, 2011)

I do agree with you their Jacqui... it is a worry... but then i leave nothing open for my children to see... and if they wanted to read the forum... they would have to do so as a guest... or with their own account that i could keep a good eye on... 

I guess what i am trying to say is... the reponsibility would be down too the parents...


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## Jacqui (Jul 5, 2011)

stells said:


> I do agree with you their Jacqui... it is a worry... but then i leave nothing open for my children to see... and if they wanted to read the forum... they would have to do so as a guest... or with their own account that i could keep a good eye on...
> 
> I guess what i am trying to say is... the reponsibility would be down too the parents...



I too, would have thought it would be a parental thing, but unfortunately parents don't always perhaps think about such things, until it happens. Then the parents come back on TFO with their anger, which I can also understand.


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## Watermelon (Jul 5, 2011)

*sorry in keeping with deletions on this thread, I had to remove this comment. Not for being offensive in anyway, but for being off topic. I think Stells (Kelly) is going to start a new thread on the subject, so I hope you will post on it. *

I also think that the moderators should continue to edit posts as talking to people in an unkind manner isn't acceptable. It could put people off from joining this forum or asking advice.

I do admit though it is fun reading.... perhaps if everyones posts were annomynous there wouldnt be all of this side taking.


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## Jacqui (Jul 5, 2011)

Watermelon said:


> .I do admit though it is fun reading.... perhaps if everyones posts were annomynous there wouldnt be all of this side taking.



 Now that is something I would like to try in both a no bars section and the rest of the forum. I have often wondered how often it's not what is said, but who says it that is all it takes for our hackles to raise. So your saying you would read the section (if we had it), but not post in it? Do you think if we could manage to keep the major arguments in a no bars section, it would be of help to the rest of the forum?


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## Watermelon (Jul 5, 2011)

Just read page 2.

Ban younger people? What would the age range be for the 'younger people'.

I dont agree at all with that, no way jose.

I'm a newbie (still under 100 posts, does that still class me as a newbie???) and I am 20 years old. 

I have learnt quite a bit from reading the debate section! Not from the arguing but the information given by experienced keepers and I have found it very useful. So yes I think that banning younger people and 'newbies' would be a great idea!!!!! NOT. - sorry by banning I mean not allowing young people and newbies in debate.

Gotta love a bit of discrimination.


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## stells (Jul 5, 2011)

If... we can't go offtopic... shouldn't this whole thread be in off topic debates 

As it isn't about tortoises lol


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## Watermelon (Jul 5, 2011)

Jacqui said:


> Watermelon said:
> 
> 
> > .I do admit though it is fun reading.... perhaps if everyones posts were annomynous there wouldnt be all of this side taking.
> ...



I do not think it would help the rest of forum because either way the petty insults would still be there just on a different link. If theres already a debate section why have another one. Maybe a no bars section called: Heres a place to argue to your hearts content with your tortoise enemies. (Swear words allowed).

I would post if I had something I believed important to say!


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## Jacqui (Jul 5, 2011)

stells said:


> If... we can't go offtopic... shouldn't this whole thread be in off topic debates
> 
> As it isn't about tortoises lol



 Well Ms. Thread killer  (no I am not name calling or being negative folks, just am commenting on the new ID she gave herself.  )

It may not be as obvious that it's about tortoises, but it is a debate on forming a new "tortoise subject no bars debate section", so thus it does have the ability to be both in here and in the off topic debate zone, too. Since it was posted here, I left it stay in here after mentally debating how appropriate this spot was or was not. Thanks Kelly for also sharing your question on that.


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## Watermelon (Jul 5, 2011)

haha made me laugh.


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## stells (Jul 5, 2011)

Yvonne is so going to kick your butt later Jacqui... for going offtopic...

You like the new ID huh? Its true... i post... thats it thread dead!!!


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## dmarcus (Jul 5, 2011)

I think it's a bad idea because someone is going to get there feelings hurt or someone will hold a grudge about something that has been said and there will be guaranteed spill over into regualer threads. I don't know what a solution is but this is not it.


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## yagyujubei (Jul 5, 2011)

Kinda seems like giving an unruly child a gun.


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## TylerStewart (Jul 5, 2011)

stells said:


> If... we can't go offtopic... shouldn't this whole thread be in off topic debates
> 
> As it isn't about tortoises lol



It's not that you were off topic, it's just that some of us clearly get posts deleted more often than others. I know how you feel. 

Since my earlier constructive post was deleted for apparently (????) being off topic (as if anything in this thread is on a single topic), here's another suggestion:

Make this "no holds barred" forum a forum that has a very minor fee attached to membership.... Say you pay $5 per year to have access to it. They do that over on Fauna Classifieds (theirs is called HELL), so the people going there choose to do so and pay to do so. This prevents people from wandering in that don't know what they're getting themselves into, and it keeps out the clutter and the riff-raff. I would also highly highly suggest that this be a mod-free zone. Not that it would ever happen, but mods shouldn't even be able to post in there. Sometimes people just need a place to strech their legs.


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## Jacqui (Jul 5, 2011)

TylerStewart said:


> , but mods shouldn't even be able to post in there. Sometimes people just need a place to strech their legs.



Wow! Hmmm trying to think of how to say something here to convey my thoughts. So by being a Mod we should get even further penalized?

I have another idea, which might help eliminate some of the poor behavior in the main forum and in the potential new forum. Let's make it a requirement that you must have and continue to have, a certain period of time or may be better a certain number of posts without getting any warnings to post in that section or to continue to post in there. Actually I think a combination of time without causing trouble and a certain number of posts. With posts being counted only if they are meaning full ones. Not posts like " " or "Nice!".


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## Watermelon (Jul 5, 2011)

Not sure I'd wanna pay to read all the fun.


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## TylerStewart (Jul 5, 2011)

Jacqui said:


> Wow! Hmmm trying to think of how to say something here to convey my thoughts. So by being a Mod we should get even further penalized?



Well, if you feel you are currently "penalized" because you're a mod, I'm sure you can step down  Not suggesting it, just throwing that out there! 

My point was that with no mods at all in there, it can remain an uncontrolled forum. Once mods are involved, they are _again_ becoming biased, picking sides and passing what was supposed to be _secret_ info to their siblings. If this proposed forum is supposed to be uncontrolled, why do mods need to be involved in it? Mods should be unbiased (which some clearly are not), uninvolved in disputes, and by posting anything at all in there, it cancels out that notion.


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## Candy (Jul 5, 2011)

TylerStewart said:


> Jacqui said:
> 
> 
> > Wow! Hmmm trying to think of how to say something here to convey my thoughts. So by being a Mod we should get even further penalized?
> ...


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## Fernando (Jul 5, 2011)

Whoa! I'm asleep for 8 hours and this is what happens!? 

Sorry I'm so late in responding but in response to your question re: over spill & D'marcus' concerns about feelings being hurt. 

@Jacqui - I don't believe over-spill would be a concern...if it DOES then I'm sure since the conversation is taking place outside of the "No holds barred" section, the moderators would have the authority that they have now. Delete/edit/move. I feel as though you guys would have LESS work to do and LESS concern with all the debates going on in this new section.

As a father myself, it is my responsibility to keep my child's eyes where they are supposed to be. To be honest there are FAR more provocative type adult websites that the kids have access to any day, any time. A kid can Google in a search bar and have access to the entire world if he/she wanted to. I don't think a Tortoise Website is nearly a threat to a kid as...let's say facebook. 

@ D'Marcus. There is a lot of talk about how members should start acting like adults on this Forum, which of course, makes sense. If my feeling's were hurt in a thread that I know very well is non moderated...the first thing that I'd ask myself is "Why am I in here?" 

It's like when my son plays around outside without his shoes and Daddy says "Eligh put your shoes on or you're going to get hurt!" he ignores my warning then stubs his toe...is he going to say "Daddy why didn't you tell me?!"?...because I have faith in my parenting skills he's not going to say a word and just cry...well maybe ask for a band-aid. 

If anyone has a good idea on how we create a virtual band-aid I'd be open to suggestions. lol


** Also I just wanted to add -- with the Idea that I had people would also have to ASK to be allowed in. They wouldn't automatically have access to the section.**


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## TylerStewart (Jul 5, 2011)

Candy said:


> Agreed. Wow Tyler that has to be a first for me and you, huh?



Secretly, I think you've agreed with me all along


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## dmarcus (Jul 5, 2011)

Fernando said:


> Whoa! I'm asleep for 8 hours and this is what happens!?
> 
> Sorry I'm so late in responding but in response to your question re: over spill & D'marcus' concerns about feelings being hurt.
> 
> ...



I understand that everyone needs to act like an adult, but not everyone seems to have the ability to turn off the mad switch, they seem to get tunnel vison and all they see is payback for a bad comment or getting disrespected. I have seen it so mant times. 

Honestly, if there was a no holds barred thread I wouldn't read it, but it still conserns me that there will be possible spill over into the normal threads.

Example: 
your boss (a forum member) is having issues at home (no holds barred section) and fighting with their spouse (another member), your boss is so frustrated that he/she can't leave those problems at home. So when they arrive to work, any employee (neutral members) that says anything your boss doesn't like will feel the anger they brought to work from home.


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## Fernando (Jul 5, 2011)

dalano73 said:


> Example:
> your boss (a forum member) is having issues at home (no holds barred section) and fighting with their spouse (another member), your boss is so frustrated that he/she can't leave those problems at home. So when they arrive to work, any employee (neutral members) that says anything your boss doesn't like will feels the anger they brought to work from home.



Read my response to Jacqui. It would be no less then what the Mods have already been doing. 

In fact there would be LESS work for them. Edit/Delete/Move Off Topic or disturbing posts. 

The Boss and their spouse already have access to PM's. They could have already been arguing the entire time behind the scenes WITHOUT any no holds bar section. 

This has already happened with a few forum members here. Trust me


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## Jacqui (Jul 5, 2011)

Ummm EVERYone, let's try to all stay on the subject of having a "no holds barred" section.


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## Az tortoise compound (Jul 5, 2011)

Wow...haven't checked in since I posted the original thought.....

Look at all the mod deletions on this thread! 
I am not one to bash anybody but when opinions are given, I see nothing wrong in questioning where those opinions came from and what REAL, PERSONAL experience that person has.

Maybe I'm mistaken but it feels like we must take things on face value on these forums. If we ask for more info or dig deeper it ends up being "off topic" or "mean"
I know those questions can be asked through pm's and such but then the group doesn't learn only the individual.


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## Jacqui (Jul 5, 2011)

Az tortoise compound said:


> Wow...haven't checked in since I posted the original thought.....
> 
> Look at all the mod deletions on this thread!
> I am not one to bash anybody but when opinions are given, I see nothing wrong in questioning where those opinions came from and what REAL, PERSONAL experience that person has.
> ...



Just for the record, I also had a post or two deleted among those. I think there are ways of questioning, WITHOUT crossing the forum rules. 

And also, both you and I are going a little bit off topic, so we need to try to slide back towards the "no holds barred" topic.


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## Edna (Jul 5, 2011)

Fernando said:


> dmmj said:
> 
> 
> > Josh just posted a site announcement about the warning system would the waring system apply in such a section?
> ...



A restricted, unmoderated section sounds like a good idea on its surface. The people in there are those that meet the criteria and CHOOSE to be in there. OK. But what if the section is used to trash members who don't choose to be in there? Getting trashed behind closed doors is just as toxic as getting trashed in the public part of the forum.


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## Torty Mom (Jul 5, 2011)

Great point Edna.


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## Fernando (Jul 5, 2011)

Edna said:


> Fernando said:
> 
> 
> > dmmj said:
> ...



You bring up a good point Edna. Now, the idea here is a sub topic to the debate section. 

So the intent of the person(s) is to debate a certain topic...I would hope that the topic would not be one sided and the person getting "trashed" is not even involved in the debate...that just ends up being a mess and there would be no point in the section, period.

We can keep it strictly tortoise topic related or it can be completely open. I'm creating a thread now regarding the section...so maybe you can post your ideas there. I'll even create a poll? Any suggestions? Anyone?


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## onarock (Jul 5, 2011)

How about this. Two people are on the regular forum discussing whatever. The thread starts to get a bit heated. One of the participants says "lets take this to the no holds barred section if you or I want to continue in this fassion" The other member says "sure". Its like "lets step outside" type of thing. One of the two contacts a Moderator to get access to this area of the forum where they title a new thread and have at it. All the participants were either part of the old thread or read up to where it got heated and decided that they want to join the conversation. Moderators warn the ones involved to stay on topic and "keep it amongst yourselves" They check in from time to time like any other thread to see that non participants arent getting hammered. On the open forum thread it can state: The heated part of this thread has been moved to the no holds barred section anyone who wants to participate contact a mod. I vote that Fernando be kind of a mod in this section. He can monitor the comings and goings of the participants and allow or deny access. The other mods have enough to do.


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## Fernando (Jul 5, 2011)

onarock said:


> How about this. Two people are on the regular forum discussing whatever. The thread starts to get a bit heated. One of the participants says "lets take this to the no holds barred section if you or I want to continue in this fassion" The other member says "sure". Its like "lets step outside" type of thing. One of the two contacts a Moderator to get access to this area of the forum where they title a new thread and have at it. All the participants were either part of the old thread or read up to where it got heated and decided that they want to join the conversation. Moderators warn the ones involved to stay on topic and "keep it amongst yourselves" They check in from time to time like any other thread to see that non participants arent getting hammered. On the open forum thread it can state: The heated part of this thread has been moved to the no holds barred section anyone who wants to participate contact a mod. I vote that Fernando be kind of a mod in this section. He can monitor the comings and goings of the participants and allow or deny access. The other mods have enough to do.



That makes sense. And obviously those allowed access would be able to view it. If you have not ASKED to be a part of that area, then obviously you don't have to see certain things. 

I think both sides would be satisfied...those who want to finish a disagreement and those who don't care to see it. 

If a person is pressuring or calling the other person out in public the offer to go to the "NHB" after they have already declined once or twice, they will be moderated at that point.


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## onarock (Jul 5, 2011)

The good thing about it is. Mods cant just open new threads on the NHB and tell the participants, your posts have been moved. Its up to the members. Now, I can request to start a thread in the NHB pertaining to a particular thread. If i do so, and nobody participates my Thread is closed or removed. If the person who started the Open Forum Thread or OFT does not want the bickering he/she can ask the bickering to take it elsewhere, where, if at that point they dont, they mods now have the right to strictly moderate the thread or take further action. Kind of a "hey you were invited to take this heated debate elsewhere, you declined, now I want all of you to tone it down or your posts will be moderated." Might stop the hecklers and the ones who cast stones then run for the hills crying wolf from doing such. kind of a...back your words or shut your pie hole type thing. You know, stand by what you say or dont say anything at all.. preventative maintenance.


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## Josh (Jul 5, 2011)

We can have a "no holds barred section" when the bickering stops and when the discussions return to being about tortoises and not about proving someone else wrong.


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