# Reasons for laying broken eggs.



## Anyfoot

Hi all.

One of our females has laid 3 clutches now. 1st clutch was of 5, but one broke. 2nd clutch was of 3 but one broke. 
This female always lays in the same spot, just over the edge of a flat stone. At 1st I assumed the broken eggs were hitting the stone as she dropped them in the hole. 
However today I actually watched her lay her 3rd clutch of 3. The first one came out already broken, the 2nd egg was fine and the 3rd came out broken. 
What are the reasons this could happen? She's about 13" SCL and the eggs are around 1.75" in diameter. 

Thanks


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## N2TORTS

Thin outter shell could be the cause...."aka Lack of calcium"? usually the female breaks them during the backfill of the nest. Maybe Carl and some others will chime in. Sorry for the scrambles and hope some "sunny-side ups soon"


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## Anyfoot

N2TORTS said:


> Thin outter shell could be the cause...."aka Lack of calcium"? usually the female breaks them during the backfill of the nest. Maybe Carl and some others will chime in. Sorry for the scrambles and hope some "sunny-side ups soon"



Thanks Jeff. 
They do have access to cuttlebone constantly, and eat a lot. That doesn't mean this female is eating enough though.
Could it be if I'm not offering ideal laying conditions(indoors for now), that she's holding on to them for too long. 
Or could the fact that this female has quite a concave plastron play a part. 

Oh yeah, the redfoots like eggs sunny side up too. 

Look here's today's proof of the powder addiction.


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## Yvonne G

I would have said thin shells too.


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## N2TORTS

Usually retained eggs will be "too calcified" and outward appearance of egg/shell will be rough to the touch and bumpy.
I'll see if I have a pic ......I know I do ..


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## Anyfoot

Should I just keep putting the cuttlebone in until they stop eating it? They eat a lot of this stuff, if I put lets say 3 or 4 cuttlebone in, they will devour it that same day. Lets put it this way, I've used a bag of 60 cuttlebone in 3 months, and they eat lots and lots of dandelions. 
Is it possible to overdose the calcium intake?


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## N2TORTS

No......No OD. The one thing I notice if too many are kept out and not eating they "go soft" sort of speaking. As well as a great source of calcium intake , also a great resource for keeping the beaks trimmed. Let them gnaw away !....


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## cdmay

N2TORTS said:


> Thin outter shell could be the cause...."aka Lack of calcium"? usually the female breaks them during the backfill of the nest. Maybe Carl and some others will chime in. Sorry for the scrambles and hope some "sunny-side ups soon"



I tend to agree. The shell looks thin.
If she is getting plenty of calcium there may be some other cause. Is your female very young, or just starting to lay eggs? Does she get natural sunlight?
Time will tell, be patient.


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## N2TORTS

Here is an "over retained egg" excess calcification can be seen ........


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## Anyfoot

cdmay said:


> I tend to agree. The shell looks thin.
> If she is getting plenty of calcium there may be some other cause. Is your female very young, or just starting to lay eggs? Does she get natural sunlight?
> Time will tell, be patient.


 I've only had her about 6 months. Her 1st clutch was very calcified. To my knowledge she's at least 12yrs old. The last owner used to keep them on 1/2" (0.5")deep substrate. So I assumed she had been holding the first clutch back. Clutches since have been fine, well looks like to thin now. The eggs are huge compared to any that the others have layed. 
I'm learning fast patience is needed with torting.


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## Anyfoot

N2TORTS said:


> Here is an "over retained egg" excess calcification can be seen ........


 Yeah, that's what her first clutch was like. In her first clutch 1 broke, 2 were calcified and 2 were huge. Still in incubation, but look like dudleys.


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## Yvonne G

Maybe the space between the top and bottom shells is too small for the eggs to fit. ?????


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## Anyfoot

Yvonne G said:


> Maybe the space between the top and bottom shells is too small for the eggs to fit. ?????


I'll have a look at this.


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## Anyfoot

This thread has suprised me and made me realize they need a lot more calcium than I expected when developing eggs. 
That ontop of them being in an indoor enclosure to long. I do take them outside as much as possible, but they miss out on the low 60f days. This should be eradicated this year. 
One last question. 

How do they get such a high calcium requirement in the wild? 

Thank you all. Very educational.


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## hingeback

How long after she laid the egg broke?(Curious) I think I've heard before that lack of calcium results in soft eggs. Btw happy birthday!


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## Anyfoot

hingeback said:


> How long after she laid the egg broke?(Curious) I think I've heard before that lack of calcium results in soft eggs. Btw happy birthday!


Thanks. 

They broke as she was laying them. I think the first one was broke before it even started coming out. I saw yolk dripping out before I saw any shell. I don't know all the technical terms, but this suggests to me it broke on the way down the tube, which suggests week shell(lack of calcium), as the guys above said. Makes sense to me.


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## N2TORTS

Anyfoot said:


> This thread has suprised me and made me realize they need a lot more calcium than I expected when developing eggs.
> That ontop of them being in an indoor enclosure to long. I do take them outside as much as possible, but they miss out on the low 60f days. This should be eradicated this year.
> One last question.
> 
> How do they get such a high calcium requirement in the wild?
> 
> Thank you all. Very educational.


 There are many sources of calcium in plant, fruit and nut based products they would find in the wild. Some examples might look like this...... 6 Dried Figs 82mg or a 1/4 cup Almonds 95mg, aside the fact RF's being omniviours just adds to the calcium base they would receive from ingesting bones of other dead animals ex: young baby chicks, rodents, the exoskeleton of insects and grubs are packed with calcium.

None-The Less "Cheers My Friend and Happy Birthday! " .........


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## Anyfoot

N2TORTS said:


> There are many sources of calcium in plant, fruit and nut based products they would find in the wild. Some examples might look like this...... 6 Dried Figs 82mg or a 1/4 cup Almonds 95mg, aside the fact RF's being omniviours just adds to the calcium base they would receive from ingesting bones of other dead animals ex: young baby chicks, rodents, the exoskeleton of insects and grubs are packed with calcium.
> 
> None-The Less "Cheers My Friend and Happy Birthday! " .........





N2TORTS said:


> There are many sources of calcium in plant, fruit and nut based products they would find in the wild. Some examples might look like this...... 6 Dried Figs 82mg or a 1/4 cup Almonds 95mg, aside the fact RF's being omniviours just adds to the calcium base they would receive from ingesting bones of other dead animals ex: young baby chicks, rodents, the exoskeleton of insects and grubs are packed with calcium.
> 
> None-The Less "Cheers My Friend and Happy Birthday! " .........


 Thank you sir. Apparently I'm the age where life begins. 

I've started to grow 2 fig trees, so they should come in use some time in the future. Fed baby chicks for 1st time last weekend. Beak, feet, the lot. They all turned psycho when I got those out. Used to feed fuzzies, but got too expensive. 
As for nuts, I asked this question quite a while back and got no reply. Is it just almonds, or do most nuts contain calcium? 
What about fruit pits, do they gain any nutritional benefits from pits?


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## N2TORTS

Ahhh Heck .....cherish them younger years buddy......it's hell getting old, not so much the mind but the body starts to wear out... 
Back to going nuts.....

Yes.... almost all nuts rank very well/high very for calcium intake….as well as other beneficial vitamins.
These varieties contain the most protein, fiber, B-vitamins, calcium, minerals, and vitamin E for the least amount of saturated fat:
1. Almonds
2. Filberts (hazelnuts)
3. Peanuts
4. Chestnuts
5. Pistachios
6. Walnuts
7. Cashews
8. Pecans
9. Macadamias
The seeds of a plant or fruit are typically rich in vitamin and mineral content. An important factor/function of a seed is to act as an energy and nutrient source for the new plant germinating from it. Hence it has lots of vitamins and minerals. I have a fig tree out front myself that I feed the fruit all the time to the Reds....they love it !


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## TiffanyVL

I had the same problem. My tortoises laid broken eggs too. but then I added a mineral supplement 1-2x weekly and calcium withOUT vit D3 5-6 days a week, plus calcium WITH vitamin D3 1-2x week.


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## Crzt4torts

cdmay said:


> I tend to agree. The shell looks thin.
> If she is getting plenty of calcium there may be some other cause. Is your female very young, or just starting to lay eggs? Does she get natural sunlight?
> Time will tell, be patient.


The sunlight (UV) was my thought as well, without enough sunlight to generate Vitamin D, calcium is not used properly - so it IS possible to get enough dietary Calcium - yet to have a deficiency because that calcium is not utilized correctly in the body. Perhaps the significant amount of cuttlebone eating is because they are deficient.


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## Anyfoot

I got home today to find this female had laid a clutch of 9. All normal size eggs and no calcification or broken eggs. My torts have had plenty of sun lately due to getting the outdoor enclosure completed, maybe that helped the broken egg problems. The 2nd photo is her first clutch with me from 207 days ago. I've just ditched those eggs. 
I'd only had her a few weeks at that point.


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## Loohan

The problem with nuts, seeds, and many other foods including many greens is that they contain anti-nutrients which block the uptake of calcium. Theoretically. Actually, from what i've read, different individuals (humans) vary greatly as to how much these factors affect them. Possibly gut flora, genetics, and other factors weigh in.
And i have no idea how it pertains to reptiles.
But people who are concerned about it have ways of soaking or sprouting nuts.
I confess i usually just eat them and i feel fine.


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## Anyfoot

Anyfoot said:


> I got home today to find this female had laid a clutch of 9. All normal size eggs and no calcification or broken eggs. My torts have had plenty of sun lately due to getting the outdoor enclosure completed, maybe that helped the broken egg problems. The 2nd photo is her first clutch with me from 207 days ago. I've just ditched those eggs.
> I'd only had her a few weeks at that point.
> View attachment 177282
> View attachment 177283


Ok I need to put the above post right before I carry on with this thread. These 9 eggs were nothing to do with the female in this thread that I keep having problems with eggs breaking, so ignore it please . 
I'll post again in a minute.


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## Anyfoot

The female in this thread still keeps breaking eggs, I've had another 3 clutches from this female since I got them in the new tort house, they've been outside virtually every day this summer as they can come and go from their house at will. So that's the D3 side of things covered. I have permanently got cuttlebone on offer, so that covers calcium if they want it and ive seen this female eat plenty of cuttlebone. All 3 clutches had broken eggs, I assumed she was breaking them after laying until I saw her lay a broken egg as it left the cloaca, and some eggs are just empty shells. 
Today(her 3rd clutch since I started this thread) she laid a clutch of 6, the 1st egg was broken again. On laying the 2nd egg the yolk came out first followed by a soft eggshell with just albumen in it(I opened this for the photo, it was a whole egg when laid). Eggs 3,4,5&6 were ok but different sizes. This female is extremely concaved on the plastron, could that be causing issues. I have 4 other females that have laid perfectly good eggs this yr.(by that I don't mean fertile but the actual eggs were fine) 
What would cause a female to lay an egg in 2 parts, yolk then eggshell with albumen? 
If you look carefully at the video you can see to the back right there is a yolk behind its eggshell. Some photos too.


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## MPRC

I cannot believe your group will eat 60 cuttle bones in a month. Mine sat for a YEAR before the 6 of them split it at random.


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## Anyfoot

MPRC said:


> I cannot believe your group will eat 60 cuttle bones in a month. Mine sat for a YEAR before the 6 of them split it at random.


Yep, just bought another 2kg last Monday, scattered about 15 pieces all over the enclosure, I see them eating it on a daily occurrence, not so much the males though. I've checked poop to see if it's passing through and I can't see anything abnormal, that's assuming you would see calcium that passes through.


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## tarta4ever

the eggs are different in size, in my opinion could be that the anal scutes cause the damage to the bigger eggs, probably the phenomen will disappear with the growth


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