# Keeping different species together. Where is the line drawn.



## Anyfoot (Jan 27, 2015)

Hi all

I am wondering when people talk about not keeping different species together. Totally get that and I have no intention of ever mixing my reds with my hinges. 
But where is the line drawn. 
Can I keep different species in the same room in different enclosures.
Can I keep different species in the same environment but fenced off separately or do I have to make sure they can't even see each other.( like a low wall rather than a fence) 
Can I have 2 different species sharing the same environment but walled off and share the same water as long as they can't get to each other. 
If you had all your torts vetted and ok'd free from parasites and diseases, is then the only reasons for keeping them separate stress related. 

I know some of them, but can some experts give me and others out there reasons for not mixing species. 
Can some different species live together for example can reds live with yellows. 

Thank you 

Craig


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## wellington (Jan 27, 2015)

They can be in same room, but should not share anything else. Also, urine, etc, should not be able to run into another's enclosure


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## jaizei (Jan 27, 2015)

The line is drawn where your opinion ends and mine begins. 

Whether someone is viewed as experienced and/or popular also seems to play some sort of role though I haven't figured it out entirely. I just noticed that the tortoise police are particular as to who they go after.


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## Anyfoot (Jan 27, 2015)

wellington said:


> They can be in same room, but should not share anything else. Also, urine, etc, should not be able to run into another's enclosure


Thank you. The fact that urine shouldn't contact different species practically answers every question I had.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 27, 2015)

If you want to be a total purist, then you really shouldn't even step from one tortoise yard into another wearing the same shoes. I don't go that far. I just have the species separated by a wooden fence, and there is no actual contact between any of the different species. Each of my tortoise yards has its own pooper scooper.


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## leigti (Jan 27, 2015)

I have always had a question along these lines also. I totally understand about species that come from different parts of the world and different environments. But what about the ones that come from very similar or same parts of the world and similar environments. for example, is it wrong to keep members of the Mediterranean species separate, can you put Greeks Russians and Herman's together? What about leopards and sulcatas? Read foots and yellowfoots? And is this view of keeping each species separate more of an American idea, how do people feel from other countries? I am just interested in different viewpoints, I know what the general feeling is here on the forum but I feel there may be other people out there with differing views that might be afraid to say anything. What experiences have people had mixing species? Good or bad?


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## mike taylor (Jan 27, 2015)

The only thing I would be worried about is inbreeding reds to yellows, sulcatas to leopards . But not only that they may fight each other or even kill each other . I don't do it . But every zoo you walk into does. Most Russian torts are wild so putting them in with cb red foots is asking for trouble . Id rather be safe than sorry . I have alot of time and money into my shelled family to risk killing them .


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## wellington (Jan 27, 2015)

leigti said:


> I have always had a question along these lines also. I totally understand about species that come from different parts of the world and different environments. But what about the ones that come from very similar or same parts of the world and similar environments. for example, is it wrong to keep members of the Mediterranean species separate, can you put Greeks Russians and Herman's together? What about leopards and sulcatas? Read foots and yellowfoots? And is this view of keeping each species separate more of an American idea, how do people feel from other countries? I am just interested in different viewpoints, I know what the general feeling is here on the forum but I feel there may be other people out there with differing views that might be afraid to say anything. What experiences have people had mixing species? Good or bad?



There are for sure lots of members that don't agree. In my opinion, it's either becaue they are lazy, lack proper space for the amount of tortoises they have or they want to purposely cross breed, which I and many don't believe in. Even when from the same area, we do not provide no where near the amount of space they would have in the wild to stay separated from the other species in their areas.


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## WithLisa (Jan 27, 2015)

leigti said:


> And is this view of keeping each species separate more of an American idea, how do people feel from other countries?


In Europe, or at least German speaking countries, it's common to keep species separated. Not because of diseases, but because of stress and different body language. Also Hybridization is something that should be avoided at all costs. Even if you decide to destroy the eggs, you could miss a clutch and females can store the sperm, so that risk remains for many years after separation.


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## Turtlepete (Jan 27, 2015)

This depends on what you are worried about with them co-habitating…..Species from different continents should undeniably never be housed together. What about species that are sympatric (co-habitate naturally)? There are few tortoises that do this naturally in the wild, but several turtles. In these cases, you then must consider aggression….Very many turtles and tortoises can be very aggressive, and obviously in this setting you won't be able to house them together.

If the animals are naturally sympatric/co-habitate, and have the same environmental needs, _and _not aggressive to one another, _and _won't hybridize then there is no possible reason they couldn't be housed together. But having a situation where all these criteria are met is very unlikely, to say the least.

I should mention I've kept different species of _Terrapene _together before. No issues, and I know this because all animals that were involved are _still _in my care, alive, and not missing any parts due to injury either.


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## jaizei (Jan 27, 2015)

Turtlepete said:


> Species from different continents should undeniably never be housed together.



Why?


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## wellington (Jan 27, 2015)

jaizei said:


> Why?



Why should they?


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## Turtlepete (Jan 27, 2015)

jaizei said:


> Why?



Different continents means entirely different bacteria and diseases that would quite possibly be completely foreign to the animal from another region of the world. If it's foreign, they may have no natural immunity to it. Not to mention completely different environmental needs. Take a more arid tortoise and drop it in the tropical habitat needed for a red, yellow, or hinge back and it won't fare well. Hugely varying dietary needs; one species thrives on fruit and fungi, while another would never encounter this naturally and subsists entirely on species of grasses, thus having a very high-fiber diet that would be foreign to a tropical animal. Differing behavior may not be hugely important, but that would be present as well. And the list goes on….


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## diamondbp (Jan 27, 2015)

This is more of a philosophical question than a technical one. There is so many ways and angles to discuss this, but the root of this question is really answered by a question "What is your philosophy?". 

Some people have a totally different philosophy from others in some areas and the exact same in others. So I'm not quick to judge ones actions. I hesitate telling someone what to do with THEIR tortoises without them asking specifically for my advice. Especially when it comes to controversial topics such as this.

Someone might say they aim for a completely natural environment for their animals as adults, yet they raise them up as babies in totally unnatural (yet beneficial) methods.
Others provide optimal conditions 24/7 365 to tortoises of all ages and sizes. 
Others do "survival of the fittest" type methods from the beginning.
I can understand all preferences.

When it comes to potential illnesses and parasites from mixing species I think it could initially be treated differently depending on whether you are talking "wild caught" or "captive breed". I personally advise against it in either scenario but think mixing species of captive breed tortoises to be the lesser of two evils.

Now I have raised turtles and tortoises long enough to know that although rare, if you raise them outside then there is a variety of ways for them to contract diseases and parasites without mixing species. Birds poop wherever they please. Mosquitos bite what ever they please. Small rodents transport items and their own poop where ever they will (almost).

So there is always risk involved no matter what philosophy you hold and what husbandry methods you use. I try my best to limit risk for MY tortoises as best I can at every stage of their life. I've had periods in my life where I mixed species and have had no issues. I've also witness tragedies from allowing one (unknowingly) sick turtle into a group. I currently don't mix any species other than a captive bred Ibera with some Hermanns and all seems to be going just fine.

In the end my philosophy is that someone else can do what they want with THEIR tortoises. I can't claim ownership over their tortoises just because of my personal opinion. Now if they ask for my opinion and criticism I will offer it, but I will never impose my husbandry philosophies as if I'm the one with all the answers. We are all still learning.

Gzzz that was way more than I intended to type.


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## mike taylor (Jan 27, 2015)

Just think of it like this . If you are planning a trip to Mexico what are you going to do before you go . Myself I would go to my doctor and tell him I'm taking a trip over to Mexico . He will give you a shot or two maybe some meds to take with you . He may even know of a good doctor over there . Tortoise can't do this so it's up to you on how much you would like to spend on vet bills .


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## jaizei (Jan 27, 2015)

Turtlepete said:


> Different continents means entirely different bacteria and diseases that would quite possibly be completely foreign to the animal from another region of the world. If it's foreign, they may have no natural immunity to it. Not to mention completely different environmental needs. Take a more arid tortoise and drop it in the tropical habitat needed for a red, yellow, or hinge back and it won't fare well. Hugely varying dietary needs; one species thrives on fruit and fungi, while another would never encounter this naturally and subsists entirely on species of grasses, thus having a very high-fiber diet that would be foreign to a tropical animal. Differing behavior may not be hugely important, but that would be present as well. And the list goes on….



I think the disease point is moot when you are housing an animal on an entirely different continent than the one it 'originated' from. If they are such fragile creatures then they should never be housed outside of their natural range. Thats where the 'doomsday' argument starts to fall apart, imo. If someone is truly concerned about disease, housing an exotic, 'foreign' tortoise in their backyard is both a great risk and disservice to that particular animal as well as every native species that inhabits the area around your backyard. It's easy to talk the talk. Not many walk the walk. 

There is this crazy idea that captive bred tortoises can basically be housed the same. Trying to mimic the natural conditions is only/(more) important with WC animals since they have imprinted. 


@leigti I'll send you some links when I get some time.


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## Turtlepete (Jan 27, 2015)

jaizei said:


> I think the disease point is moot when you are housing an animal on an entirely different continent than the one it 'originated' from. If they are such fragile creatures then they should never be housed outside of their natural range. Thats where the 'doomsday' argument starts to fall apart, imo. If someone is truly concerned about disease, housing an exotic, 'foreign' tortoise in their backyard is both a great risk and disservice to that particular animal as well as every native species that inhabits the area around your backyard. It's easy to talk the talk. Not many walk the walk.
> 
> There is this crazy idea that captive bred tortoises can basically be housed the same. Trying to mimic the natural conditions is only/(more) important with WC animals since they have imprinted.
> 
> ...



Fair enough. Being that almost every hobbyist is caring for an exotic (i.e., from a different continent) animal, they will be exposed to foreign diseases/bacteria/"mystery bus" either way. Good point. What about the rest though? They still have entirely different environmental and dietary needs. There is no way around that; CB or not doesn't make a difference. I would be very interested in hearing the thoughts of anyone who feels they can logically refute that.

My version of the aforementioned "walk" is separating them by a wood fence. I don't take measures much further then that, besides using different cleaning tools.

I should mention, I hope I'm not coming off to you as one of the "tortoise police". I certainly don't condemn it nearly like I've seen others do. I just thought I'd explore the reasons against housing them together, since you asked.


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## leigti (Jan 27, 2015)

I appreciate this discussion. I keep my animal separate and make sure that there is not cross contamination and I am not looking for an argument to keep different types of tortoises together. but I think that sometimes more in-depth discussion on the topic needs to happen when there are some, what I consider, gray areas. such as animals that are from the same country or extremely similar environments, captive bred, etc. and I am always interested to hear what people from other countries do. I like to hear different philosophies and opinions, doesn't mean I have to agree with all of them but I would like to understand where people are coming from.


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## leigti (Jan 27, 2015)

I have wondered about what my Russian tortoise could catch by living in my backyard. I thought about it more what plants to not put in her enclosure rather than the bacteria from other animals etc. But that is definitely a concern. The pen is covered with hardware cloth so except for some bird poop falling through I not sure what else could get in there or what else I can really do about it.


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## Tom (Jan 27, 2015)

Anyfoot said:


> I am wondering when people talk about not keeping different species together. Totally get that and I have no intention of ever mixing my reds with my hinges.
> But where is the line drawn.
> Can I keep different species in the same room in different enclosures.
> Can I keep different species in the same environment but fenced off separately or do I have to make sure they can't even see each other.( like a low wall rather than a fence)
> ...



People have many reasons why they say to not mix species. Different people have varying levels of interest or worry about these different issues. I would broadly categorize the risks as behavioral problems, disease risks and hybridization.

Here is my opinion on each:
1. Behavioral reasons: Some species are simply more boisterous and aggressive than others. Frankly russians tend to be more scrappy than Greeks. Sure you can have a passive russian or an aggressive greek, but I'm talking about generalities. Likewise sulcatas tend to be more bold than stars or aldabras. Also, little is known or studied about how tortoises communicate with each other. It seems reasonable to assume that the postural stances and the body language of one species might be different than the signals from another species elsewhere in the world. So many people assume that if one tortoise is not physically aggressively biting or ramming another tortoise that everything is fine. There are subtle intimidating cues that are given and received that most people are going to miss. Chameleon keepers know all about these visual stressors and what can happen, but tortoises keepers seem mostly unaware that any such thing exists. (Apologies, to those of you who do recognize these things. Speaking in general terms again...) Frequently we get threads and video about a tortoise helping to flip another tortoise back onto its feet, and many tortoise keepers ooh and ahh at how nice that was that he "helped" his "friend". They have no idea they are witnessing a tortoise-speed brawl.

I have been a student of animal behavior for literally decades. Animal behavior is my career and profession and has been since 1986. For these behavioral reasons alone, I recommend against mixing species.

2. Hybridization: Some folks find this interesting and novel. I find it sickening and an abomination. This should never happen. The state of the leopard tortoise and redfoot tortoise in this country is a mess because of indiscriminant breeding. The concept of intentionally letting two different species of imported reptile breed and produce offspring goes against ethics and common sense in my opinion. Many of these animals, like leopard tortoises, are banned from importation. No new ones are coming in. Ever. What we have now is all we've got. Diluting and ruining this is not a good plan. We should be breeding locale to locale and discouraging mixing different types even within a species. HermanniChris's work with his Western Hermanni serves as an example of how things ought to be done. That guy is my hero as far as tortoises are concerned.

Diluting the precious resources we have been given and creating mixed species hybrids is not a wise idea in the grand scheme of what is good for tortoises and our hobby in my view of things. For this reason alone, I say that species should not be mixed.

3. Disease potential: Let me start with a question from post number one in this thread: "If you had all your torts vetted and ok'd free from parasites and diseases, is then the only reasons for keeping them separate stress related." This is a trick question. Can't correctly answer yes OR no. There is no such thing as having your torts vetted and ok'd free from parasites and diseases. No vet on earth can look at a tortoise, do an exam and a fecal smear, and declare a tortoise free from parasites and disease. There is only one way to declare them free from all diseases and parasites. Necropsy by an experienced, qualified Doctor of Veterinary medicine to the tune of about $1000 dollars and the death of the test subject. I seriously doubt that any tortoise alive is free from any sort of parasite or pathogen. With a healthy immune system the "bad" organisms are kept in check. Introduce some stress, especially chronic stress, hamper that immune system, and a previously "healthy" tortoise will show you any number of diseases. You could spend $5000 on diagnostics for every tortoise in your herd and still miss some things. Cryptosporidia for example. It doesn't show up in the fecal. They have a test called gastric lavage they can administer. If this one comes up negative, it does not mean the tortoise is cryptosporidia free. It just means none turned up in that particular sample. There is no cure and no treatment for crypto in tortoises and it doesn't usually kill them. They just carry it around and shed it everywhere they go. There are many diseases like this. Tortoise herpes, http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/intranuclear-coccidiosis-tortoise-bubonic-plague.69913/, etc. There are lots and lots of these things out there floating around. 

So your vet can't look at your tortoise and psychicly know if it has a contagious disease or not. Next we have to understand that each species has evolved over millions of years to deal with the pathogens and parasites from its own little corner of the world. They have internal mechanisms and external strategies (like eating toxic plants at certain times of the year to reduce certain parasite loads), to deal with the "bugs" that occur where they come from. They do not necessarily have the mechanism to deal with parasites and pathogens from other parts of the world that are common to other species of tortoise. The practice of mixing species has led to the death of entire collections for this reason. Does it lead to the death of every tortoise that is allowed to mix with another species? No. Not at all. Its a gamble. Its a gamble with the life of your tortoises.

As far as quarantine and risk management goes, well, we could argue that for days. I'm not advocating keeping tortoises in hermetically sealed sterilized enclosures. Its all about what risk is acceptable to each of us. Might a bird fly over head and drop worm eggs into one of my outdoor enclosures? Yep. It could happen. Could a wild lizard crawl on their food in search of insect prey to eat and leave droppings? Yes it could. However in 35 years of keeping Chelonia, I've never seen or heard of this happening. I have heard of mass die offs from diseases introduced by other tortoises though. I keep multiple species of tortoise. I walk in their large outdoor pens and I don't change shoes between enclosures. This is a risk I take every day. There are other risks too. I try to minimize those risks and I don't take risks that I find substantial, like letting two different species occupy the same space.

So where is that line? Its different for everyone and different for different species. I have all CB tortoises. No wild caught of any species. I really think they are going to quit importing russians in the near future and I think we are going to wish we were doing more breeding due to their slow reproductive rate. There are lots of WC russians available right now, but I won't take the risk of bringing them onto my ranch with my other species. I'd like to find an off site area to set them up and get them going, but I haven't figured out a way to make it work yet. So bringing in WC tortoises is a risk I won't take, even though I would really like to take advantage of the current situation. Other people go to Petco or Petsmart and take that risk frequently. Their line is somewhere different than mine.

I don't see how anyone can argue that advising people to keep their tortoise species separate and never let them come into contact with each others bodily fluids or waste products is bad advice. Is it possible to get two captive bred tortoises of different species and put them together and have them both live? Sure. It happens all the time. But it is also possible that one or both of them will contract something from the other and die. I get PMs from members in Asian countries (where the practice of mixing species is common and rampant) and they are always asking me why one or the other is sick or why one died. I have no way to verify this, but it seems pretty obvious in some cases that they died from some weird tortoises diseases that was most likely contracted from one of their cage mates.

Keeping different species in the same room is a greater risk than having species dedicated separate rooms, but I've done that. A low wall outside is better than no wall, but still a risk. Sharing water is something I would consider high risk and I wouldn't do it. I would not keep reds with yellows, although some people do. Personally, I would not mix leopards (the same species) that are from different localities. If I ever have the privilege of getting some Western Hermanni from a known location, they will never see any other hermanni from any other locality, or any other species for that matter. You will have to decide what level of risk is acceptable for you.


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## leigti (Jan 27, 2015)

@Tom I hope you're right about Russian tortoises not being imported for much longer. and if things were a little different for me I would also love to start up a breeding colony of them. I think about it whenever I see female Russians advertised. I think about my female Russian, and my coworkers female Russian and how great it would be to breed them. I think the behavioral aspects of this issue are the ones that I have thought the least about, how stupid of me.


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## Tom (Jan 27, 2015)

leigti said:


> I appreciate this discussion. I keep my animal separate and make sure that there is not cross contamination and I am not looking for an argument to keep different types of tortoises together. but I think that sometimes more in-depth discussion on the topic needs to happen when there are some, what I consider, gray areas. such as animals that are from the same country or extremely similar environments, captive bred, etc. and I am always interested to hear what people from other countries do. I like to hear different philosophies and opinions, doesn't mean I have to agree with all of them but I would like to understand where people are coming from.



You seem to have drawn a conclusion that animals from the same country are okay to mix. I would not agree. I would not keep a Florida box turtle with a CA desert tortoise any more than I would keep a leopard with a sulcata, or a Burmese Star with a Burmese Mountain Tortoise. For that matter I wouldn't keep a South African leopard with a leopard from Kenya, or a leopard of unknown or mixed origins. My reasons are all of the above from my previous long winded post.


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## leigti (Jan 27, 2015)

Tom said:


> You seem to have drawn a conclusion that animals from the same country are okay to mix. I would not agree. I would not keep a Florida box turtle with a CA desert tortoise any more than I would keep a leopard with a sulcata, or a Burmese Star with a Burmese Mountain Tortoise. For that matter I wouldn't keep a South African leopard with a leopard from Kenya, or a leopard of unknown or mixed origins. My reasons are all of the above from my previous long winded post.


I haven't made a conclusion that any should go together. and I am aware that one country can contain many different types of environments. it was just the easiest way I could try to ask a question. I agree with your views on crossbreeding. i'm not quite sure what I think about things like what they call "hypo" or breeding for albinoism I guess that is a different thread.


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## Tom (Jan 27, 2015)

leigti said:


> i'm not quite sure what I think about things like what they call "hypo" or breeding for albinoism I guess that is a different thread.



A different thread indeed. I don't have a problem with selectively breeding the same species and trying to isolate or encourage certain color or pattern traits. Its not really my cup of tea, but I see no harm in it.


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## leigti (Jan 27, 2015)

Tom said:


> A different thread indeed. I don't have a problem with selectively breeding the same species and trying to isolate or encourage certain color or pattern traits. Its not really my cup of tea, but I see no harm in it.


Yeah I guess I'm thinking specifically of albinoism, because of the issues that come with it.


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## Anyfoot (Jan 28, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> If you want to be a total purist, then you really shouldn't even step from one tortoise yard into another wearing the same shoes. I don't go that far. I just have the species separated by a wooden fence, and there is no actual contact between any of the different species. Each of my tortoise yards has its own pooper scooper.


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## Anyfoot (Jan 28, 2015)

Well woke up this morning and read this entire thread and thoroughly enjoyed it.
Quite a few different opinions out there, and I take on board everything that everyone says, then make my mind up what to do with everything in life.
Tom your posts was as usual, an excellent approach to the debate, and well explained. I here what you are saying. I've been stalking you for a bit now on this forum.

Right in a bit deeper.

I want to know if redfoots and yellowfoots will cross breed creating hybrids. I don't want any hybrids at all, not my game and never will be. Not saying I don't agree with people doing it but its not for me. Also will cherryheads cross with northern redfoots if so is his frowned on. This is the grey area for my thoughts. Are there regions in the wild where any combination of cherryheads, northern or yellowfoots cohabit-ate together. Is there any evidence of reds and yellow hybrids.

I have redfoots and hinges.I have the opportunity over the next 12 months or so to take on a couple of yellows and some reds including 1 wc female cherry that is quite a specimen and looks amazing. To do this I need to get serious and create an indoor area that imitates the natural habitat. I have the land, time and some finance available to do so. 
All breeds I am talking about like it humid and the temp ranges can be accommodated in 1 large enclosed area to suit them all. Hinges require more water area to swim, eat more protein and require the lower end of the redfoots temps. 
Below is a basic idea of what i am thinking. Too early to go into major detail of what is mulling around in my head. Sizes are not important at this point, just the principle. The cloud line represents a wall or fence. 
Thoughts please. 

Thank you to everyone.

Craig


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## FLINTUS (Jan 28, 2015)

Anyfoot said:


> Well woke up this morning and read this entire thread and thoroughly enjoyed it.
> Quite a few different opinions out there, and I take on board everything that everyone says, then make my mind up what to do with everything in life.
> Tom your posts was as usual, an excellent approach to the debate, and well explained. I here what you are saying. I've been stalking you for a bit now on this forum.
> 
> ...


Yes, carbonaria and denticulata have almost certainly cross-bred in the wild, but there are no genetic tests that have been done to confirm this, just sightings.


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## FLINTUS (Jan 28, 2015)

Tom I agree with nearly all of your v.expansive input, but there are a few things that I want to pick up on.


Tom said:


> People have many reasons why they say to not mix species. Different people have varying levels of interest or worry about these different issues. I would broadly categorize the risks as behavioral problems, disease risks and hybridization.
> 
> Here is my opinion on each:
> 1. Behavioral reasons: Some species are simply more boisterous and aggressive than others. Frankly russians tend to be more scrappy than Greeks. Sure you can have a passive russian or an aggressive greek, but I'm talking about generalities. Likewise sulcatas tend to be more bold than stars or aldabras. Also, little is known or studied about how tortoises communicate with each other. It seems reasonable to assume that the postural stances and the body language of one species might be different than the signals from another species elsewhere in the world. So many people assume that if one tortoise is not physically aggressively biting or ramming another tortoise that everything is fine. There are subtle intimidating cues that are given and received that most people are going to miss. Chameleon keepers know all about these visual stressors and what can happen, but tortoises keepers seem mostly unaware that any such thing exists. (Apologies, to those of you who do recognize these things. Speaking in general terms again...) Frequently we get threads and video about a tortoise helping to flip another tortoise back onto its feet, and many tortoise keepers ooh and ahh at how nice that was that he "helped" his "friend". They have no idea they are witnessing a tortoise-speed brawl.
> ...


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## Anyfoot (Jan 28, 2015)

FLINTUS said:


> Yes, carbonaria and denticulata have almost certainly cross-bred in the wild, but there are no genetic tests that have been done to confirm this, just sightings.


Ah hello mate.

So if they have bred in the wild then they live together and its a natural thing for them to interbreed. 
Just a thought and its probably a stupid one but how do we know that some torts are not hybrids and in the modern day we accept them as its own species. For example how do we know that the northern carbonaria is not an hybrid of the denticulata and the cherryhead carbonaria.


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## FLINTUS (Jan 28, 2015)

Anyfoot said:


> Ah hello mate.
> 
> So if they have bred in the wild then they live together and its a natural thing for them to interbreed.
> Just a thought and its probably a stupid one but how do we know that some torts are not hybrids and in the modern day we accept them as its own species. For example how do we know that the northern carbonaria is not an hybrid of the denticulata and the cherryhead carbonaria.


Genetic domination is the main reason, someone like @tortadise or @Neal would be better to answer this really. The whole species classification is messed up, that is one of the problems here and why people like hermannichris as above, are breeding locality specifically. Debatedly, I would say that it would be better for conservation to breed, for instance, a Ghana erosa and homeana from one region of the country, than a erosa from Ghana, and one from Benin in my case, at least from a locality point of view. The genetic differences between species such as these are not clearly understood, we base our classifications on a few telltale signs, or at least we believe that we do. It's not really natural, Tom is right in that behavior is different between the species that we have more knowledge of, and for instance, carbonaria and denticulata are definitely distinct species, but within that, there should probably be 5-7 subspecies of carbonaria, and 2-3 of denticulata, and maybe even a new species within carbonaria. Therefore, while cross-breeding does happen, it is not as common as breeding with the own species. Yellows and reds do come from different ranges, but they overlap, there are very few tortoises-if any- that have a range the same as another species, or totally within the range of another species.
Oh, and just to confuse you even more, kinixys and chelonoidis come from a common ancestor before the plates split between Africa and S.America. In fact, genetically, carbonaria are more similar to erosa than they are to denticulata I think I'm right in saying.


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## FLINTUS (Jan 28, 2015)

Oh, and how are the homeana getting on?


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## Anyfoot (Jan 28, 2015)

FLINTUS said:


> Oh, and how are the homeana getting on?


That has confirmed some more questions I had mulling around in my mind, "common ancestor" this would explain there very similar needs. Excellent, thank you. 
The Homeana are going well. Both males were very shy at first but today i've noticed a definite change in there activity, although they have never really stopped mating. lol Are the kinixys a more nocturnal species than other tort species. These seem to be very active at night. The previous owner used to feed them late on around tea time!

Thanks


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## tortadise (Jan 28, 2015)

Well this topic can very very detailed. Busy little bee I have been lately with regard to Kinixys homeana/erosa. Currently working on a reinforcement population for both in west Africa. After lots of genetic data and sampling of specimens kept. It was overruled by both the organization I started and the west African organization that a known locale specific population be worked with as the founder group instead of imported group we currently posses for the long term reintroduction. So this can be easily mirrored into any species being worked with. 

@FLINTUS I must say it's very uncommon to see dendiculata and carbonaria to possess similar retreats in the wild and or mating. Yes it has been observed but most of those sitings were rare. In vargus and ramirezs noted literature of cladding the phylogeographic differences of carbonaria they did sample quite a few dendiculata. Both c.d and c.c were very absent in overlapping ranges of ecosystems. However they were noted to be found within tolerable distances of possible "overlapping" migrations. Not much has been done I terms of radio tracking two species against the range or territory both inhabit. But countries like north western Brazil into north east Peru, south west Columbia do all represent a population of both species.mbut when looked at in a microscopic level on the ground these areas withhold a vast Eco diversity. Carbonaria more grassland and open terrain, versus dendiculata more favoring of the extreme density of canopy forests and much higher humid environments. So perhaps each species "could" venture into one another's territory and possibly mate. But I would think it's improbable as each species is geared towards a different survival approach. Food differs, light exposures, moisture, edible fauna or carrion etc... Now human impact may play a large roll on forced integrades within these two species.

Upon keeping these two species together. Yes it is possible. In captivity it's much easier than in the wild. Dendiculata can be "molded" to be suitable minimum standards that's are less forgiving than the wild. Same for carbonaria. However, the way we keep our species is as wild as possible. Dendiculata favor much more wet and dark habitat and a lot more rooted vegetables and broad leaf flora with a very high protein of carrion, meats, eggs, turtle pellets. Where *** the carbonaria get proteins, meats, eggs, on a far more limited basis and are never fed large rooted flora like taro, carrots, ginger root, hicima, sweet potatoe etc.. That are most favored by dendiculata. Anther note is that dendiculata are far more solitary than carbonaria. Yes they can survive together. But are much less forgiving than carbonaria. Rarely if ever have we seen any male and or female aggression in the 35 plus specimens of carbonaria kept here(from hatchling, to yearling to adults). Denediculata can represent an extreme aggressive nature. Especially when kept within more natural thresholds of high humidity and deep burrows heavily planted enclosures. Males will bite limbs, neck, tails, and even eat ova from females. Dendiculata seems to naturally display a lack of nest building skills like carbonaria. They utilize the extremely thick forest floor debris to merely cover the eggs deposited in the wild. This time of egg laying also begins at the dry season so many leaves fall off forest trees and scrubs adding the "shedding" of thick Amazonia forest floor, another layer of protection for the ova deposited, this is also done in respect that a wet season could ruin the eggs if deposited in the ground like a traditional nest. From wet to dry seasons in the thick amazon forests water levels can rise and drop as high of elevation up to 50'.

Anyways blah blah blah from me. I'd keep em separate just because up there different species.


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## Turtlepete (Jan 28, 2015)

FLINTUS said:


> Genetic domination is the main reason, someone like @tortadise or @Neal would be better to answer this really. The whole species classification is messed up, that is one of the problems here and why people like hermannichris as above, are breeding locality specifically. Debatedly, I would say that it would be better for conservation to breed, for instance, a Ghana erosa and homeana from one region of the country, than a erosa from Ghana, and one from Benin in my case, at least from a locality point of view. The genetic differences between species such as these are not clearly understood, we base our classifications on a few telltale signs, or at least we believe that we do. It's not really natural, Tom is right in that behavior is different between the species that we have more knowledge of, and for instance, carbonaria and denticulata are definitely distinct species, but within that, there should probably be 5-7 subspecies of carbonaria, and 2-3 of denticulata, and maybe even a new species within carbonaria. Therefore, while cross-breeding does happen, it is not as common as breeding with the own species. Yellows and reds do come from different ranges, but they overlap, there are very few tortoises-if any- that have a range the same as another species, or totally within the range of another species.
> Oh, and just to confuse you even more, kinixys and chelonoidis come from a common ancestor before the plates split between Africa and S.America. In fact, genetically, carbonaria are more similar to erosa than they are to denticulata I think I'm right in saying.



Those are some interesting claims. Especially 5-7 ssp. of carbonaria….Every study I've seen concluded that there there is not enough variation to be classified as different sub-species. And carbonaria bearing more genetic resemblance to erosa then denticulata seems to me like a long-shot, at best. Do you have any information to back this up?


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## Mavrik (Jan 28, 2015)

Fascinating discussion. Please, carry on -- as a keeper of multiple species, I find everyone's opinions and reasoning for their logic stimulating.


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## FLINTUS (Jan 28, 2015)

tortadise said:


> Well this topic can very very detailed. Busy little bee I have been lately with regard to Kinixys homeana/erosa. Currently working on a reinforcement population for both in west Africa. After lots of genetic data and sampling of specimens kept. It was overruled by both the organization I started and the west African organization that a known locale specific population be worked with as the founder group instead of imported group we currently posses for the long term reintroduction. So this can be easily mirrored into any species being worked with.
> 
> @FLINTUS I must say it's very uncommon to see dendiculata and carbonaria to possess similar retreats in the wild and or mating. Yes it has been observed but most of those sitings were rare. In vargus and ramirezs noted literature of cladding the phylogeographic differences of carbonaria they did sample quite a few dendiculata. Both c.d and c.c were very absent in overlapping ranges of ecosystems. However they were noted to be found within tolerable distances of possible "overlapping" migrations. Not much has been done I terms of radio tracking two species against the range or territory both inhabit. But countries like north western Brazil into north east Peru, south west Columbia do all represent a population of both species.mbut when looked at in a microscopic level on the ground these areas withhold a vast Eco diversity. Carbonaria more grassland and open terrain, versus dendiculata more favoring of the extreme density of canopy forests and much higher humid environments. So perhaps each species "could" venture into one another's territory and possibly mate. But I would think it's improbable as each species is geared towards a different survival approach. Food differs, light exposures, moisture, edible fauna or carrion etc... Now human impact may play a large roll on forced integrades within these two species.
> 
> ...


I agree with you, and that was my understanding that the ranges only slightly overlap, but in those ranges, a number of 'sightings' have been reported, and there are too many for them to be anomalies, it is happening in the overlappings of the ranges IMO. 
Still wouldn't keep them together personally, but in theory, I think it would work for a female red foot and a female yellow foot-both CB- in a very large outside enclosure, where you could have different micro-climates.


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## FLINTUS (Jan 28, 2015)

Turtlepete said:


> Those are some interesting claims. Especially 5-7 ssp. of carbonaria….Every study I've seen concluded that there there is not enough variation to be classified as different sub-species. And carbonaria bearing more genetic resemblance to erosa then denticulata seems to me like a long-shot, at best. Do you have any information to back this up?


There have been a few discussions on here regarding the ssp. of carbonaria, but as we all know most of the classification system isn't accurate atm-graeca is an even better example. 
They are definitely common ancestors, and it appears that the denticulata evolved from the red foot like tortoise, but in genetic history, apparently their closest relative is erosa and homeana. Haven't looked much into it, someone on here claimed that though, can't remember who. One of the mods I think.


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## Anyfoot (Jan 28, 2015)

Thank you all for your input

I am now wiser than before this thread started, a lot has been confirmed to me.

I just want to say when an amateur like me is asking for info off so many experts, and all the experts have slightly different views, I'm forced to in effect seem to be ignoring certain advice, this is not the case, I merely way up the pros and cons and make a decision. No insult is ever meant to anyone.

Thanks

craig


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## shelley11 (Jan 29, 2015)

Torts of different species should never be kept together as they are very territorial and can send each other very stressful which could result with a very unhappy tortoise. It's fine to keep them in the same room as long as they can't see or smell each other. Thanks for reading hope this helps


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## Mavrik (Jan 31, 2015)

@shelley11 --

What is your reasoning, logic, and/or research on this though? I have all my tortoises in Winter HQ (aka my kitchen) currently. They can actually all see each other to varying degrees (some have better views than others), and I also assume being in the same room with the same air flow that they can smell each other as well -- and yet I have not seen any issues up to this point.


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## FLINTUS (Jan 31, 2015)

shelley11 said:


> Torts of different species should never be kept together as they are very territorial and can send each other very stressful which could result with a very unhappy tortoise. It's fine to keep them in the same room as long as they can't see or smell each other. Thanks for reading hope this helps
> View attachment 116312


While I respect your views, that is a very simple reply compared to the stage of the development the thread was at. If you are going to make a brazen claim, try to explain it a bit more.


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## FLINTUS (Jan 31, 2015)

Mavrik said:


> @shelley11 --
> 
> What is your reasoning, logic, and/or research on this though? I have all my tortoises in Winter HQ (aka my kitchen) currently. They can actually all see each other to varying degrees (some have better views than others), and I also assume being in the same room with the same air flow that they can smell each other as well -- and yet I have not seen any issues up to this point.


I've had red foots and hingebacks in the same room. They can smell eachother, I'll tell you that. If one is alone, and smells other tortoises-in this case it was a hingeback smelling me putting red foots back into their enclosure-, he/she does seem to get stressed.


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## tglazie (Feb 1, 2015)

As someone who once fostered a wide variety of species but who now focuses on two (a single old Southern Turkish Greek and nine Marginateds), I've gotta say, from a mere personal preference, I enjoy the simplicity of what basically amounts to one species. Don't get me wrong, I've often considered getting back into sulcatas, or perhaps acquiring a hatchling p. pardalis, but as my mind wraps around the troubles I experienced in keeping the torts separate, I ultimately decide to stay away from the multiple species projects. I suppose it's one thing if someone is going to keep just one of each species. Even then, I would argue for separation, given all the points Tom so clearly laid out. 

Behavioral problems are the big one. When my Greek tortoise Graecus fights, he viciously rams anything that even resembles a tortoise, hurling his body like a battering ram. When I introduce my male marginateds to spar (as a bit of breeding conditioning early in the spring), there's a great deal of biting and shoving. I can only imagine these two fighting styles causing problems, with the marginateds ill equipped to deal with the ramming, and the Greeks equally unprepared to be fiercely bitten by the marginated. 

Size differences are also a matter to consider. When my big sulcata Jerry was stomping about my property, he had little regard for where his elephantine hoof landed. I would imagine that he'd have no trouble running down Graecus or any other small tortoise unfortunate enough to cross his path. Same goes for eating. Jerry would have been more than capable of seriously injuring another tortoise grazing in the same spot. But even less dramatic size differences are ones I could see as being problematic. Graecus is a scrappy little guy, but he's still only seven inches in length. Compared to Gino, my largest male marginated who measures thirteen inches, Graecus is a little wimp to be pushed aside. How would this go at feeding time? Probably not well. 

There is always the risk of disease, and though I've seen and read of countless instances of sick tortoises decimating entire colonies, I'll be the first to admit I'm no expert on disease pathology. But given the anecdotal evidence concerning the dangers, I see it, as Tom put it, as an unnecessary risk. 

Look, I know not everyone can restrict their love of tortoises to one species, but I've gotta say, my life has gotten much simpler as a result. Maybe that's not for everybody, but as a person who once aspired to keeping every species on earth in some global chelonian zoo, I've gotta say, the margies are really that "one" species to which I can see devoting the rest of my life. I swear, the more I talk about it, the more I sound like some wild child settling down with a nice girl, but over the past few years, I finally feel as though I've gotten a good hand on what I want from this endeavor, and I'm more sure than I've ever been that this is right for the tortoises as well. 

Another plus is that the whole hybridization thing isn't such an issue, given that the only divergent variety of marginated tortoise, as far as I know, is the little Wessinger's tort, and I don't intend on getting one of those. This was the big reason I ultimately gave up on finding a mate for Graecus, given that the entire complex of "Greek" tortoises is, in my opinion, confused beyond deciphering. I believe him to be of Southern Turkish/Lebanese origin given his physical characteristics when compared to pictures of tortoises photographed in the field, but I have no actual documentation to prove this. Same with redfoots. I mean, how many people have actually acquired their wild caught specimens from someone who can definitively place their origin? Same with leopards, hingebacks, Russians, and Hermanns. I mean, I see so much variety in Hermanns that are supposedly one large "eastern" subspecies. I know that many of the captive bred ones in the US today are hybrids, and it is truly a sad state of affairs when guys like Chris are the exception and not the rule. 

But yeah, I would urge species separation, and if possible, keeping only one species. Life is just much easier that way, though I can certainly understand the point that life isn't as interesting. 

T.G.


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## Anyfoot (Feb 1, 2015)

FLINTUS said:


> I've had red foots and hingebacks in the same room. They can smell eachother, I'll tell you that. If one is alone, and smells other tortoises-in this case it was a hingeback smelling me putting red foots back into their enclosure-, he/she does seem to get stressed.


Hi Ben

So what you are saying is, you wouldn't advise keeping different species even within smelling distance. Or have I miss understood you. 

Thank Craig


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## FLINTUS (Feb 1, 2015)

Anyfoot said:


> Hi Ben
> 
> So what you are saying is, you wouldn't advise keeping different species even within smelling distance. Or have I miss understood you.
> 
> Thank Craig


Not advising anything Craig, as that's up to the individual keeper. They were fine in the same room when they had other tortoises in the same enclosure, but without other tortoise smells, they seem to want to get to the other species. So if I had one x species, and one y species, no I wouldn't keep them in the same room personally, but in groups its fine. Of course, these are just my observations and may be from 'unusual' tortoises.


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## Randi (Feb 1, 2015)

My vet tech book also mentions never mixing species - "the most important thing that can be done to prevent RNS and many other equally serious diseases is never allowing contact between different species. Animals from different areas have different abilities to resist 'alien' pathogens; an organism which may be harmless to one may kill another. Do not add any new tortoise to an existing collection without a quarantine period - six months is the minimum recommended. A new tortoise may have had an RNS or bacterial, mycoplasmic or even viral disease and may now be a carrier.'.


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## Randi (Feb 1, 2015)

Another thing mentioned was that different species require different environments and POTZ (preferred optimal temperature zones) and therefore becomes difficult to manage in the same space and have thriving specimens. I'd say keeping a single species would be easiest. If you wanted to expand to different species, it would be best to keep them in separate areas entirely. A room designated for each species, etc. There was an awesome thread about biosecurity. I would never mix. Just my opinion.


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## Team Gomberg (Feb 1, 2015)

tglazie said:


> As someone who once fostered a wide variety of species but who now focuses on two (a single old Southern Turkish Greek and nine Marginateds), I've gotta say, from a mere personal preference, I enjoy the simplicity of what basically amounts to one species. Don't get me wrong, I've often considered getting back into sulcatas, or perhaps acquiring a hatchling p. pardalis, but as my mind wraps around the troubles I experienced in keeping the torts separate, I ultimately decide to stay away from the multiple species projects. I suppose it's one thing if someone is going to keep just one of each species. Even then, I would argue for separation, given all the points Tom so clearly laid out.
> 
> Behavioral problems are the big one. When my Greek tortoise Graecus fights, he viciously rams anything that even resembles a tortoise, hurling his body like a battering ram. When I introduce my male marginateds to spar (as a bit of breeding conditioning early in the spring), there's a great deal of biting and shoving. I can only imagine these two fighting styles causing problems, with the marginateds ill equipped to deal with the ramming, and the Greeks equally unprepared to be fiercely bitten by the marginated.
> 
> ...



Well said. And on a small scale, I can relate. I went from dealing with multiple species down to just 1. Granted it was only 2 years of having multiples..but still, it did it get easier dropping to just 1 species.


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## leigti (Feb 1, 2015)

Team Gomberg said:


> Well said. And on a small scale, I can relate. I went from dealing with multiple species down to just 1. Granted it was only 2 years of having multiples..but still, it did it get easier dropping to just 1 species.


Species separation is easy enough. But even getting down to one species doesn't necessarily mean you won't have to separate anyway. especially with species like Russians, either have to have a big group or a bunch of separate little pens, or a combination of both. I decided that if I was going to have to have separate enclosures anyway might as will be a different species in each one.


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## Team Gomberg (Feb 1, 2015)

leigti said:


> Species separation is easy enough. But even getting down to one species doesn't necessarily mean you won't have to separate anyway. especially with species like Russians, either have to have a big group or a bunch of separate little pens, or a combination of both. I decided that if I was going to have to have separate enclosures anyway might as will be a different species in each one.



Yep, it's true. I've been through that, too.

I'm now down to just 1 single tortoise and I like it. So much easier, especially considering my location. It's not for everyone, like the member I previously posted shared.. 
And should I ever get back into more torts...I'll likely stick to the single species.


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## leigti (Feb 1, 2015)

Team Gomberg said:


> Yep, it's true. I've been through that, too.
> 
> I'm now down to just 1 single tortoise and I like it. So much easier, especially considering my location. It's not for everyone, like the member I previously posted shared..
> And should I ever get back into more torts...I'll likely stick to the single species.


It is much easier with small species. One Russian and one box turtle, I am thinking about getting another tortoise but I don't know what kind. like I said I figure I might as will get another species since I won't be able to house them together no matter what I get. I don't even feel very comfortable trying to add a female in with either one of my other females.


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## JeffR (Jan 18, 2022)

Tom thanks for the information 
In a related question 
When switching animals from one outdoor enclosure to another is there any suggestions on how long to rest the enclosure or leave it fallow.

In other words how long can the typical toxic parasites capable of living without a host? Any suggested sterilization or cleaning measures when swapping out species in an outdoor enclosures ?


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## jsheffield (Jan 19, 2022)

Anyfoot said:


> Hi all
> 
> I am wondering when people talk about not keeping different species together. Totally get that and I have no intention of ever mixing my reds with my hinges.
> But where is the line drawn.
> ...


Same room, different enclosures is where I draw the line... anything else and you run the risks of sharing parasites/diseases between species and running into difficulties because of different diets and environmental needs.

Jamie


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## Paschendale52 (Jan 19, 2022)

I'm curious how people like @Markw84 feel about this in terms of water turtles. I feel like its much more common to keep multiple species of water turtle, especially those who co-habitate in natural bodies of water, together. This has been a very interesting thread.


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## Tom (Jan 19, 2022)

JeffR said:


> Tom thanks for the information
> In a related question
> When switching animals from one outdoor enclosure to another is there any suggestions on how long to rest the enclosure or leave it fallow.
> 
> In other words how long can the typical toxic parasites capable of living without a host? Any suggested sterilization or cleaning measures when swapping out species in an outdoor enclosures ?


I do not have a fact based answer for this question. I have heard of some tortoise pathogens able to survive under ideal conditions with no host for 6-9 months. Outdoors in full sun, heavy rain, summer heat and winter cold, does not seem ideal to me, so probably less for most things, but I cannot say there isn't something that can survive longer that I don't know about. In practice, I've gone 12+ months before doing this, and I know of no problems from it yet.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jan 19, 2022)

I miss Craig very much.
I hope he's doing well


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## Yvonne G (Jan 19, 2022)

ZEROPILOT said:


> I miss Craig very much.
> I hope he's doing well


Me too. I LOVED looking at the beautiful indoor area he made for his RF tortoises. I'm gonna' send him an email and see if we can get him to come back and give us an update.


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## enchilada (Jan 23, 2022)

when i visited the Turtle Conservancy at Ojai, i noticed they mixed a huge group of Aldabras and Galapagos together, from sub adults to adults. I'm sure Eric knows what he is doing XD


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## Tom (Jan 23, 2022)

enchilada said:


> when i visited the Turtle Conservancy at Ojai, i noticed they mixed a huge group of Aldabras and Galapagos together, from sub adults to adults. I'm sure Eric knows what he is doing XD


You'd be very wrong with that assumption. He's lost entire species to disease, and near every baby he produces is pyramided from their self-proclaimed "natural" methods. I know. I have some of them.


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