# Pyramiding



## drgnfly2265 (Sep 16, 2011)

So I'm wondering if other types of torts pyramid like sulcatas do? 

Any time that I see a pyramiding picture it's 99% of the time a sulcata. If I do see another kind of tort with pyramiding it's not that bad, the scutes are raised but just a little bit. It just seems like pyramiding in other torts aren't that "extreme" as a sulcata can get... When I read articles about other torts that had the worst care possible, the only pyramid that is visible isn't as bad as what you would see with sulcatas with decent care. Why is this???


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## dmmj (Sep 16, 2011)

I have seen russians, sulcatas, leopards, aldabras, box turtles, and red ear sliders (1) all with pyramiding, but I do think the worst cases are usually sulcatas.


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## Turtle Guru (Sep 16, 2011)

A lot of species have pyramiding shells but it is do to much protein in the diet. So watch how much protein you give turtles and tortoises


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## SulcataSquirt (Sep 16, 2011)

Im pretty sure protein doesnt cause pyramiding, its the lack of humidity that causes pyramiding. Lack of humidity + Protein = pyramids that grow really fast.


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## chase thorn (Sep 16, 2011)

i have thought the exact same thing! my sulcatas have very little pyramiding but still have pyramiding!


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## Kristina (Sep 16, 2011)

Turtle Guru said:


> A lot of species have pyramiding shells but it is do to much protein in the diet. So watch how much protein you give turtles and tortoises



This is absolutely untrue and an outdated mode of thinking concerning pyramiding. We have come leaps and bounds the last few years on the subject of pyramiding, and have shown that protein levels are NOT the culprit. Please do a little reading on the pyramiding threads located on the forum.

As for species that pyramid - I have seen at least one example of ALL commonly and uncommonly kept species that have shown pyramiding. Oddly enough, some species that require more humid environments such as Yellowfoots, Redfoots, Home's and Serrated Hingebacks, and Manouria, will show reverse pyramiding as youngsters. The scutes will actually be sunken in. As they age however, the bones begin to deform in the typical pyramided shape.

Sulcatas, Stars, and Leos seem to be the worst when it comes to pyramiding.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Sep 16, 2011)

Could it be that pyramiding is documented more in sulcatas simply because of their increased popularity in the reptile trade over other species?

A parallel could be in lizards. For instance, one sees green iguanas suffer from MBD a lot more than other lizards such as water dragons, monitors, geckos, etc...because lot more people (at least new reptile hobbyists anyway) are keeping more green iguanas than other species.


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## dmmj (Sep 16, 2011)

ShiningSnakes said:


> Could it be that pyramiding is documented more in sulcatas simply because of their increased popularity in the reptile trade over other species?


It's possible they are a very popular tortoise.


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## drgnfly2265 (Sep 17, 2011)

Looking around on Yahoo images I found some pics of pyramiding.....

I found two that aren't sulcatas and they have pyramiding.











But they don't compare to a lot of the images that I seen of pyramiding in sulcatas











It always looks like the cases with sulcatas are more "extreme". It sounds like there could be many causes. I wish that we could find out what causes it. Is their any possibility that it can be in their family geans?



dmmj said:


> ShiningSnakes said:
> 
> 
> > Could it be that pyramiding is documented more in sulcatas simply because of their increased popularity in the reptile trade over other species?
> ...


That could be true. I have been seeing more and more lately at reptile stores and shows. Whenever the Petsupermarket has two babies in stock they seem to sell them both together and get more in a week later...


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 17, 2011)

You newbies need to do a little research on pyramiding that we have written already. This is a subject that we have talked about enough to make a person crazy and I always figure that new keepers will read what we have written but evidently they don't. 

So I will repeat my experience and opinion on pyramiding and ask that you do a search and get others opinions...There are many reasons for a tort to pyramid..here are mine

I believe there are 4 things needed to prevent pyramiding...a good and varied diet, lots of exercise, about 80% humidity and strong UVB or sun.
That's really simple and if you will do those 4 things your animals should not pyramid. Humidity is very important but so is a good diet and the other things I mentioned. Not one is any better than the other, but in my opinion you need all 4 things to prevent pyramiding.
How do I know this? Experience. My family has been involved in turtle and tortoise rescue for about 30 or 35 years (me, not so much) and thats what we have learned. If you practice those 4 things on your animals they won't pyramid. It's not easy to raise healthy tortoises, you have to work at it, and you have to keep up with it day after day. You need to feed the best diet you can. I walk daily to collect weeds and leafs and blossoms for my animals. I go to the produce stands and buy different squashes and dark leafy greens like collards and escarole and endive. Rarely do I feed just normal lettuce, I do feed Spring Mix to my babies, but my bigger tortoises get as wide a variety of stuff as possible. I grow Rose of Sharon and Holly hocks and roses and sunflowers for my animals. I grow different squash plants and grow one squash on the vine but pick the blooms for the animals. My day is spent taking care of my tortoises and getting food together for them. I also walk for miles to feed them. I have collected so many weeds for them in my neighborhood that I now have to get in my car and drive to a fresh area to collect weeds and blooms for them.
In the wild Sulcata walk for miles to eat. They take a bite here and another one there and at the end of the day they have put in miles of walking. So we then we put them in a small container and wonder why they pyramid. If you don't have a lot of room you shouldn't get Sulcata, they need a lot of room and exercise. Some of you have seen pictures of Bob and his tracks. He has made deep tracks in his pen as he paces his perimeter. He doesn't walk a little bit, he walks all day every day. If you check on him, he's walking, always walking. So you can't put these animals into a small container and expect them to be healthy or happy. They need to walk. So that's my opinion and experience with pyramiding. Now do a search here on TFO and you will get others opinions on pyramiding as we have talked this subject to death.
But that's my opinion and experience on pyramiding...


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## TurtleTortoise (Sep 17, 2011)

I thought I read somewhere that indian star tortoises are supposed to have the "pyramiding" look. I dont know much though. :/


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## Tom (Sep 17, 2011)

There is a lot of dialogue on this thread, but it hits most of the high points along the way.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-End-Of-Pyramiding#axzz1Y58xjW5C

In it I demonstrated what I did to grow three smooth sulcatas. Since that time I, and many others, have duplicated the feat with many sulcatas and other species too.

There was an Austrian study from the early 2000's that set out to demonstrate the link between pyramiding and protein intake. What the study actually ended up proving is that protein has nothing whatsoever to do with pyramiding and and humidity has everything to do with it.


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## drgnfly2265 (Sep 17, 2011)

I understand that there are some main factors that can cause pyramiding.



Tom said:


> There is a lot of dialogue on this thread, but it hits most of the high points along the way.
> 
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-End-Of-Pyramiding#axzz1Y58xjW5C
> 
> ...



I have read through that thread and it is great. I have started to mist down Bowser and her inside encloser everyday because of that.

But I'm wondering if other types of torts pyramid as bad as sulcatas do. Like the two photos that I showed shows how crazy pyramiding can get in sulcatas. Do other torts shell get that bad? It seems like (sadly) it's becoming a little normal to see a sulcata with a lot of pyramiding.


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## ascott (Sep 17, 2011)

2 cents coming here 

I believe you see more photos of sulcatas with pyramiding as they are a readily accessible species (low cost and tons of them, unfortunately this mix is bad for them).

I believe that humidity plays a huge role in the disorder of pyramiding of the tortoise/turtle shell. I think that sun, natural sun is essential (while there are means to bring in artificial light, it should be a secondary source and the sun the first source, in my opinion. Diet is crucial, and yes walking great distance is something that is part of natural food collecting for our now captive tortoise/turtle. Exercise to me does more than simply work the physical being....it is an emotional, well being necessity that, I believe is important. Another that I believe to be as important is, I am sure I will get a negative reply or two on this one , but I am a big girl and can take it, slow and steady growth....not to rush the growth process to get the end result, ya know?

Also, there are two photos shown on prior post of two disfigured tortoise, they are, I believe inflicted with MBD not simply pyramiding...in my opinion....


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## dmmj (Sep 17, 2011)

Sulcatas are cheap (45$) at lots of expos and stores, it is kind of sad they are so cheap like china town RES, so there will be more to see and in worse shape.


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## Turtle Guru (Sep 17, 2011)

Ok I didn't read that I was reading a article on this but it said nothing on humidity it pays to look at the year.  sorry for inconvenience .


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## Tom (Sep 17, 2011)

In my experience, nothing pyramids worse than a leopard. I guess it sort of depends on how you measure/evaluate it. I think we see more pyramided sulcatas because there are more of them out there than any other species. I'm saying a lot of the same stuff I've said before, but we have an entirely new audience now.

Sulcatas and leopards first went "mainstream" around 1990. They were around before then, but really not very widely known and not very common. I had been in the reptile trade since 1986 as a retailer, but it did not see my first leopards and sulcatas until 1991. If I saw any before that, I really don't remember it. Its possible I saw them in a zoo or something and just don't remember. Anyway, back then the "experts" and all the books explained that they are desert animals and must be kept hot and dry all the time or they will get a respiratory infection. I believed this because at the time I worked in a pet store near the beach (cold and clammy all the time) and we regularly had people coming to us with CA desert torts that had respiratory infections. To heal them, we'd send them 40 miles inland to where it was hot and dry all the time and they'd spontaneously get better. The experts also said that they will get all the water they need from their food and a water bowl will only add unwanted humidity to their enclosure. We were to soak them twice a month or so to insure they got enough water. We were also told to feed them leafy greens from the grocery store and NO protein since that "caused" pyramiding. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, grew some seriously pyramided tortoises. I could not understand why, when I followed al the advice to a "T", my torts still pyramided. Not a little bit, and not just one or two, ALL of them. This failure lit a fire under me. I HATE failing at anything! Hate it. I did more research and talked to more "experts". More failure. By 1998 the thinking had evolved into "protein AND excessive amounts of food cause pyramiding". We were now to feed mostly grass and weeds, less grocery store stuff (since it was TOO nutritious), no veggies, no fruit, and in small quantities, to better simulate the more sparse diet of a wild sulcata. MBD was also becoming much better understood and lots of natural sunshine was also now being recommended, instead of the indoor "Vita-Lites". Any old-timers remember those? So armed with this new knowledge, and finally understanding why I failed in previous attempts, I went down to Walter Allen's place, Casa de Tortuga, and picked out a new hatchling, Scooter. Walter saw me and told me I should have two. He GAVE me Bert. Back then, a free sulcata was like free diamond earrings. Very valuable and precious. I had my great big enclosure with the rabbit pellets and the Vita-Lite. I constructed a 15x30' pen for them to be outside and get sunshine in. I removed ALL the weeds and anything edible. They were out in the sun all day long as long as temps were in around 70 or higher and sunny. They had shade too, but I mean they were outside. At night they would sleep inside in their dry, warm enclosure. I skipped feeding days and fed them light on the days I did feed them. They got calcium and vitamin supplementation and a rare soak. They grew very slowly, but they still pyramided. Now I was really frustrated, but dumbfounded. I did everything the "experts" said, but still failed. I kept my Scooter and Bert, somebody gave me Delores along the way, but I was pretty well done with trying to raise anymore hatchlings, until SOMEBODY figured out what the problem was. Back in the 90's we were still importing wild tortoises, but they had to be 4" long in order to be brought in. So in the pet stores we would have 4" WC torts in the same pen with 4" captive raised ones and the captives kept on pyramiding and the WC stayed smooth. I could never figure that one out either, but it told me that pyramiding "happens" sometime before that 4" mark. FOr 20 years, nobody that I know of ever raised a smooth sulcata or leopard. Over the years, I kept picking up puzzle pieces. I read the Fife's "Leopard Tortoises" book in 2007 when it was first published. It was the first time anyone had ever published ANYTHING about humidity for a leopard tortoise. Puzzle pieces started falling into place. I went to Louisiana for a job. There was a breeder there who raised his torts outside, near New Orleans, and his were all smooth. His were the first smooth captive raised sulcatas I had ever seen. A guy on the crew lived in South Florida. His sulcatas lived in the back yard and ate all the cat food everyday, in addition to all those FL weeds. Totally smooth, despite that terrible diet.

In January of 2008 I got Daisy. She was three months old and heavily pyramided already. I was going to put her into a dry enclosure but give her a water bowl and a humid hide. I fed her "normally" not the restricted diet that Scooter, Bert and Deloris had gotten. She slept in the humid hide and spent a lot of time in there. She didn't grow much, but the pyramiding did not seem to change. This is where I reached another big revelation. There is a HUGE difference between PREVENTING pyramiding and STOPPING pyramiding in progress. I switched Daisy's substrate out for orchid bark and I progressively made it wetter and wetter and wetter. I covered most of the top to keep it more humid in there. I sprayed her and the entire enclosure several times a day. I started soaking her daily. It gradually became more and more swampy. All the while I watched her like a hawk. I was looking for any sign of distress, infection, shell rot, respiratory issues, etc... No sign ever came. It took around a year, but I'll be darned if the new growth didn't start coming in smoother. Now at almost 4 years old you can see the different stages of her life recorded in her growth rings. I will always keep her. She is a permanently recorded chronicle of what I have been through.

Finally, in 2010, I grew tired of arguing with naysayers. So I put my money where my mouth is and did the "End of Pyramiding" thread. Rather than continue arguing to no end, I decided to prove what I was saying publicly. All the while inviting anyone else to raise a smooth one without humidity, hydration and moisture, and show their results. There are a lot of folks who, to this day, are still resisting and rejecting this new info. To my knowledge, none of those folks are raising smooth sulcatas or leopards. I am.


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 17, 2011)

I believe we are on the fore-front of correct reptile medicine and keeping. We are learning NOW that humidity, diet, sun and exercise are an important part of preventing pyramiding. 10 years ago we did not think that humidity had *anything* to do with tort keeping or preventing pyramiding. Now it has everything to do with it. It is "we" who are changing the way tortoises are kept now. It is "we" who are using UVB lighting for tortoises kept inside. It is "we" who are changing the way chelonia are kept now. It is us, as a whole, who are the important part of learning and changing diet and the total way chelonia are kept now. I seriously do believe it is "us" the fore front of new ways to grow healthy and happy tortoises and turtles. We learn by experience and research and reading and mistakes. The same way we kept them 5 years ago is so completely different from the way we keep them now. So I really believe it is US as a whole who are the important part of chelonia keeping and medicine...I hope this makes sense to you as I am kinda sleepy but seriously excited by what we are doing now and I want everyone to know and see that it is *US*...who are so important now...*US* and not an egotistical us but an experienced searching learning us...


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## Tom (Sep 17, 2011)

ascott said:


> Diet is crucial, and yes walking great distance is something that is part of natural food collecting for our now captive tortoise/turtle. Exercise to me does more than simply work the physical being....it is an emotional, well being necessity that, I believe is important. Another that I believe to be as important is, I am sure I will get a negative reply or two on this one , but I am a big girl and can take it, slow and steady growth....not to rush the growth process to get the end result, ya know?



Angi, I don't have a negative reply for you at all, but just some food for thought on a couple of points relating to the discussion.

Point 1: Just to ADD to what you said about the walking (not disagreeing one bit), locomotion also aids in the digestive process for tortoises, much the same way it does for horses. It helps move things along.

Point 2: About the slow growth. It is my opinion that this slow growth thing goes hand and hand with the protein thing, and I think the theory has been debunked. My adults in the above giant post had three of Maggie's four elements (no humidity) and they were grown very slowly. At 13 years old my males are only around 50 pounds. Have you seen pics of them? They are pretty pyramided despite VERY slow growth. They had tons of exercise, a great diet, sunshine almost all day every day all year long and they were grown very slowly on a low protein/no protein diet. They are very much pyramided. They don't have MBD or extremely bad pyramiding, but they ARE pyramided. This and the health of my babies, is why I disagree with the whole "slow growth" thing. My personal experience shows me that it holds no truth whatsoever, just like the whole "hot and dry" thing, and the whole "all the water they need from their food thing", and the "protein causes pyramiding" thing. I think these are persistent myths from our tortoise keeping past and I have the living proof to show it.

I do not say things like this to argue or show anybody up. I say them so that I can be corrected and learn when I am wrong, and to educate others when I am right. I've liked you since you joined this forum and I would like to invite you and your family out to the ranch to see the things I am trying to explain first hand. I'd love to SHOW you what I mean and introduce you to the whole gang. I want you to hold Tuck and Trey, my "fast" growing yearlings, in your hands and tell me they are not as healthy and fit as any tortoise you've ever seen. PM me for details and we'll set it up.


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## dmmj (Sep 17, 2011)

maggie3fan said:


> I believe we are on the fore-front of correct reptile medicine and keeping. We are learning NOW that humidity, diet, sun and exercise are an important part of preventing pyramiding. 10 years ago we did not think that humidity had *anything* to do with tort keeping or preventing pyramiding. Now it has everything to do with it. It is "we" who are changing the way tortoises are kept now. It is "we" who are using UVB lighting for tortoises kept inside. It is "we" who are changing the way chelonia are kept now. It is us, as a whole, who are the important part of learning and changing diet and the total way chelonia are kept now. I seriously do believe it is "us" the fore front of new ways to grow healthy and happy tortoises and turtles. We learn by experience and research and reading and mistakes. The same way we kept them 5 years ago is so completely different from the way we keep them now. So I really believe it is US as a whole who are the important part of chelonia keeping and medicine...I hope this makes sense to you as I am kinda sleepy but seriously excited by what we are doing now and I want everyone to know and see that it is *US*...who are so important now...*US* and not an egotistical us but an experienced searching learning us...


So you are saying it is us?
What about them? Do they have a say?


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## ewam (Sep 17, 2011)

I think why sulcatas might have more pyramiding is because they are one of the biggest tortoises. Most other tortoises don't get up to 90 pounds so the pyramiding can't get as bad.


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## Tom (Sep 17, 2011)

I agree with you Maggie. I have been frustrated by this stuff for two decades, and only recently have we made good progress. We still have a ways to go, and quite a few more questions to answer though.


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 17, 2011)

dmmj said:


> maggie3fan said:
> 
> 
> > I believe we are on the fore-front of correct reptile medicine and keeping. We are learning NOW that humidity, diet, sun and exercise are an important part of preventing pyramiding. 10 years ago we did not think that humidity had *anything* to do with tort keeping or preventing pyramiding. Now it has everything to do with it. It is "we" who are changing the way tortoises are kept now. It is "we" who are using UVB lighting for tortoises kept inside. It is "we" who are changing the way chelonia are kept now. It is us, as a whole, who are the important part of learning and changing diet and the total way chelonia are kept now. I seriously do believe it is "us" the fore front of new ways to grow healthy and happy tortoises and turtles. We learn by experience and research and reading and mistakes. The same way we kept them 5 years ago is so completely different from the way we keep them now. So I really believe it is US as a whole who are the important part of chelonia keeping and medicine...I hope this makes sense to you as I am kinda sleepy but seriously excited by what we are doing now and I want everyone to know and see that it is *US*...who are so important now...*US* and not an egotistical us but an experienced searching learning us...
> ...



Yup, it's us, it was them that caused pyramiding in the first place...


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## TurtleTortoise (Sep 18, 2011)

What about hibernating? I have sorta read the end of pyramiding thread but would hibernation have an affect at all? Being cold and wet down in the moist dirt for almost half a year? I don't know much and I don't even know if sulcatas are supposed to hibernate but I'm just saying for any tort? And I'm new and again don't know much or read much, but why do turtles and box turtles not pyramid? They stay small, but is there a significant difference that they do or don't that tortoises do or don't?

I'm just saying is there ANY possibility that something other than diet, exercise, uv, and moisture/humidity could cause or affect pyramiding? Anything at all or have you found the best solution?
Here are some random ideas that tortoises might do in the wild:

Rub against rocks (totally random)
Travel long distances for food (exercise)
Burrow deep down to cold moisture (moisture/humidity)
hot dry sun (uv)
And sometimes they don't get food for a loooong time because they were built to take it. Even though your test denied this could there be some perfect combination of things that make smooth torts? Maybe you have found it and other people that try don't get something right.
Ok I'm burning out go ahead and tell me if any of that made since.


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## Kristina (Sep 18, 2011)

drgnfly2265 said:


> It always looks like the cases with sulcatas are more "extreme". It sounds like there could be many causes. I wish that we could find out what causes it. Is their any possibility that it can be in their family geans?



For one thing, those pictures aren't showing tortoises that are just pyramided. Both of them are suffering SEVERE MBD (metabolic bone disease.)


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## Tom (Sep 18, 2011)

TurtleTortoise said:


> What about hibernating? I have sorta read the end of pyramiding thread but would hibernation have an affect at all? Being cold and wet down in the moist dirt for almost half a year? I don't know much and I don't even know if sulcatas are supposed to hibernate but I'm just saying for any tort? And I'm new and again don't know much or read much, but why do turtles and box turtles not pyramid? They stay small, but is there a significant difference that they do or don't that tortoises do or don't?
> 
> I'm just saying is there ANY possibility that something other than diet, exercise, uv, and moisture/humidity could cause or affect pyramiding? Anything at all or have you found the best solution?
> Here are some random ideas that tortoises might do in the wild:
> ...



In general the species that hibernate are less prone to pyramiding. Those species do not tend to pyramid much even for the people who don't hibernate them. Most of the Testudo species can be grown smoothly with out so much attention to humidity, moisture and hydration. This has been demonstrated here many times. Usually when one sees pyramiding in these or box turtles or RES, it is also usually associated with horrible husbandry, a terrible diet, and a complete lack of any UV.

There are LOTS of possibilities for other factors that contribute to pyramiding. We are now able to grow them smooth, but there are still a lot of unanswered questions.

I'll answer for each of your ideas.

1. Abrasion does have a slightly smoothing effect, but remember that the scute material is only a little thicker than your thumbnail. It is the porous, malformed bone underneath that IS the pyramid.
2. Exercise helps burn calories, so less energy left over for growth. My research has shown me that growth in the wrong conditions (dry) is pyramided growth. Growth in the right conditions (wet and warm) is smooth. The rate doesn't matter.
3. The burrowing gives you some abrasion, but it also gives you more humidity than above ground. Humidity contributes to keeping a tortoise hydrated and helping the shell grow smoothly.
4. I cannot say that I know of a smooth tortoise that was not getting either sunshine or artificial UV. Anyone out there know of one? All of mine get sun all year long.
5. See #2. But also, if there is no growth, due to lack of food, there is also no bad growth. In the wild they grow when there is plentiful food. There is plentiful food in the wet, humid rainy season. So most of their growth happens during the rainy season because they are eating a lot.

So far everyone that I know of that is following the "wet" routine is growing smooth torts. Some people go farther than others, and it varies around the country too, but most everyone using a humid hide box, a damp substrate, regular soaks and shell spraying is growing a smooth baby.


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## drgnfly2265 (Sep 18, 2011)

Thank you all for the great responses! I really appreciate it 

There has been so much that I was wanting to say on this thread but I'm trying to get over a cold that is trying to kick my butt  

Tom - I looked up leopards pyramiding and a lot of pictures do show up. And they do show signs of a lot of really bad pyramiding. I kept an eye out for leopards at the F.I.R.Expo that I dragged myself and the hubby to today, since I felt a little better and needed some fresh air. And I did see leopards with a good amount of pyramiding. 

I agree with you Maggie3fan. We are learning so much still. And like you said, how we kept our tortoises 5 years ago and how we keep them today has changed. I keep Bowser on cypress mulch now and not hay, I'm switching up her diet, and she is getting misted now. When I first got her I would have been afraid to mist her because I wouldn't want to give her a respatory infection. 

And for the pics, I didn't even think about if the sulcatas had MBD. So that can be the problem a lot of the times that I see pyramiding...

I guess sulcatas are usually the first type of torts that they show with all the pyramiding. And I agree that their size probably makes it seems more than what the others pyramiding would be.


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## TurtleTortoise (Sep 18, 2011)

Tom said:


> TurtleTortoise said:
> 
> 
> > What about hibernating? I have sorta read the end of pyramiding thread but would hibernation have an affect at all? Being cold and wet down in the moist dirt for almost half a year? I don't know much and I don't even know if sulcatas are supposed to hibernate but I'm just saying for any tort? And I'm new and again don't know much or read much, but why do turtles and box turtles not pyramid? They stay small, but is there a significant difference that they do or don't that tortoises do or don't?
> ...



That is what it sounds right. rainy season=more food, more food=more growth, and rainy/wet/humid+growth=smooth shell.


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## Tom (Sep 18, 2011)

Right! 

The big question is, What do we do with them in captivity? Do we simulate 9 months of very little to eat and extreme temps, then give them three months of all they can eat with humidity and water (like rain) sprayed on their shells?

It is my opinion that providing them with natural grazing (or a plate of food on the indoor days) and the right conditions year round does absolutely no harm. Yes, they can SURVIVE the dry periods, but is that good for them? Do they somehow biologically need that to remain healthy in the long term? Because they have to survive the seasons and hard times in the wild, should we somehow attempt to induce that in captivity? Is there some happy medium?

In the wild their growth occurs when conditions are optimal. If they have a long and productive rainy season, say 5 months instead of three, they eat more and grow more. When the rain stops and the food disappears, they stop growing, until the next rainy season. So is it harmful if the rain never stops, conditions stay good, and they just eat and grow continually? I don't know. Does anybody really know?

Mine live outside and experience the seasons. They have temp controlled shelters, but the days are still shorter and much colder in the winter. They all seem to be doing well. My adults produce lots of healthy babies. My juveniles are growing steadily and smoothly. They are all very solid and heavy. Would they benefit from a period of little or no food for a few months per year?


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## Neal (Sep 18, 2011)

Tom said:


> So far everyone that I know of that is following the "wet" routine is growing smooth torts. Some people go farther than others, and it varies around the country too, but most everyone using a humid hide box, a damp substrate, regular soaks and shell spraying is growing a smooth baby.



I just wanted to point out that the "wet" routine is not the only method of growing smooth tortoises as emphasized in my http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Hydration-Vs-Humidity-Adults-Only#axzz1YLxVtdfz. I don't think you meant it that way, but I thought it is important to note that in this conversation.

Currently of my hatchlings the only access to a humid they have is their humid hide box which is only 1/3 of their indoor enclosures, everything else is dry. They are well hydrated, as were the tortoises I spoke of in the thread referenced above, so in my experience hydration intake has been the key factor. I think pyramiding is complex even to the point of different types of pyramiding. I have not sprayed my tortoises shells (except in warmer weather to cool them off) and all my tortoises so far have grown very smooth.


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## TurtleTortoise (Sep 18, 2011)

I don't know, but it seems like the only way to know if all year round rainy seasons would affect them would be some intense hard work that lasts at least 1 gen. of torts being tested. That is too long for us right now. Somebody has to study them in their natural habitat and then try and keep a sulcata from hatchling to adult as best they possibly can replicating their natural habitat then also one with an "all rainy season" and see what happens. It is all test and retest. You have done plenty yourself (Tom), more than I could ever do. You may have nailed it with the wet conditions. Or maybe were just the start of solving the problem. You never know, people 20 years from now could have completely solved the problem with the help of you. Or that is just the best we can do with them in captivity. Who knows what might happen.


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## Tom (Sep 18, 2011)

TurtleTortoise said:


> I don't know, but it seems like the only way to know if all year round rainy seasons would affect them would be some intense hard work that lasts at least 1 gen. of torts being tested. That is too long for us right now. Somebody has to study them in their natural habitat and then try and keep a sulcata from hatchling to adult as best they possibly can replicating their natural habitat then also one with an "all rainy season" and see what happens. It is all test and retest. You have done plenty yourself (Tom), more than I could ever do. You may have nailed it with the wet conditions. Or maybe were just the start of solving the problem. You never know, people 20 years from now could have completely solved the problem with the help of you. Or that is just the best we can do with them in captivity. Who knows what might happen.



My adults were bred from a group of captive bred, captive raised torts. So you have the originals, which I'm assuming were wild caught, then the CBB parents of my adults, then my adults that I raised from hatchlings, and now their hatchlings. So three CBB generations so far. When my current yearlings have babies in a few years it will be CBB generation four.


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## TurtleTortoise (Sep 18, 2011)

Tom said:


> My adults were bred from a group of captive bred, captive raised torts. So you have the originals, which I'm assuming were wild caught, then the CBB parents of my adults, then my adults that I raised from hatchlings, and now their hatchlings. So three CBB generations so far. When my current yearlings have babies in a few years it will be CBB generation four.



That gets confusing. Do have them or have seen some of you hatchlings reach adulthood?
Oh wait, of course you have.


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## Tom (Sep 18, 2011)

Haha. I got my hatchlings in 1998 and now they are adults. So yes I have seen MY hatchlings grow to adulthood. Now my hatchlings (the 1998 ones) are having heir own hatchlings. I guess THOSE are also MY hatchlings. Haha. 

Got all that straight?


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## ascott (Sep 18, 2011)

Hey Tom  I love a good meal made up of "food for thought", seriously...one of my favorites. Just means I am about to take in new information 

I in no way, whatsoever, take anything you have said here or in any other threads, as a way to be negative towards me...I too have liked you since I have joined this wonderful forum....k 

I thank you so very much for your offer of a visit, I will certainly pm you soon and see if our schedules can align with one another...that would be fantastic. 

You and I do not differ too much in what we think on care of "arid"  tortoise, I say that just for reference sake. I have always watered my tortoise, use to be a joke where I worked when I would go out to change the water in the soaking dish on my office patio for the two CDTs I had there with me...I would be made fun of for "watering the tortoise like a damn plant" hahaha, I would just smile and shake my head...these comments from folks who called my tortoise "big ole turtles"...so anyways LOL.

I think that the only time you where provoked P) by my comments are when I make the statement "slow steady growth, don't rush it"...so, here is where this statement gets generated from in my head....

I use to train dogs for obedience and behavior modification and began shadowing this crazy man (I say that with great respect and awe) on Schutzhund training, I have had a sleeve on twice (as much as I could physically take ) and felt the solid power that came from those awesome animals...strong, sturdy solid as a mack truck....I had trained a variety of shepherds, and rottweilers.....of which I have respect for their intense intelligence and sheer power...this crazy man I worked with opened up to me in regards to their breeding...for solid bone structure, maximum growth of their lungs for great capacity to physically be able to be tenacious in their work, etc. 

He made a statement to me that has stuck and that I have always been in agreement with as I use to also show and participate in breeding program with a close friend for years of Old English Bulldogge... 

Where my beliefs generate from-- 1) a slow, solid, well formed bone structure is of utmost importance for longevity and this is achieved by not rushing to the prize, time to "settle" into their bones, so to speak....2) a slow and steady growth with the proper nutrition and exercise will allow for the maximum lung health and capacity...so Tom, when I say slow and steady I refer to just that....not that I associate it with any old day tortoise husbandry...I know better as well that every day brings evolution...I am so glad that I am part of this forum to share the tiny bit of knowledge that I have and absorb and gain the huge pieces that you as well as others have to offer.....


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## evlinLoutries (Sep 19, 2011)

all torts can have a pyramiding case..


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