# Seizures



## rrhoblit (Mar 5, 2020)

I am currently adopting an 8 year old male sulcata tortoise with a roughly 6 month history of seizures. When diagnosed he was having roughly more than 30 a day. He was tried on Phenobarbital which had no effect. I was told they ran a full blood panel but I haven’t seen the results to verify yet. The rescue has been treating him with CBD oil which has dropped his seizures to a couple a day. I am a veterinary technician and my doctor as well as my exotic vet haven’t seen anything like this is tortoises. Does anyone have any experiences with seizures?


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## Tom (Mar 5, 2020)

In all my years, I've never heard of any such thing. Got any video of that?


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## wellington (Mar 5, 2020)

Wow, never heard of a tortoise with seizures. Who actually diagnosed them as seizures? We find that most vets do not have much if any of a clue when it comes too tortoises. Would love to know who diagnosed and if they really are infact seizures.
Our long time tort rescue @Yvonnemay have some insight.
Do you know what the actual symptoms are that are being called seizures?


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## rrhoblit (Mar 6, 2020)

The rescue posted a video on their Facebook page but I can’t seem to figure out how to save it to my phone. I am not sure who diagnosed him but they called it epilepsy which I find kind of garbage. He basically becomes very neurological and bobbles his head severely. It’s like he can’t control his legs and that they are spasming. He looks like he is dancing at a rave party lol


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## rrhoblit (Mar 6, 2020)

I also forgot to mention that he started to have these neurological episodes at one of our local zoos


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## wellington (Mar 6, 2020)

rrhoblit said:


> I also forgot to mention that he started to have these neurological episodes at one of our local zoos


He was owned by the zoo and instead of them treating him they gave him to a rescue?
That zoo needs to be shut down if that's true. A reputable zoo would not do that. They would treat it themselves or give to a zoo with more experience but not a rescue with no experience in the diagnosis if it's really epilepsy.


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## wellington (Mar 6, 2020)

What's the name of the rescue? We can look them up on FB


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## ZenHerper (Mar 6, 2020)

I mean, if it has a brain it can have a seizure. (MBD, parasites, insecticides, viruses, head trauma...)

Yes, I'd like to see the video if you would post the fb page address.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 6, 2020)

No, I've never come across a tortoise with seizures, sorry. But glad the oil seems to be helping. I bought some for pain in my thumb and it didn't do a thing for me.


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## rrhoblit (Mar 6, 2020)

wellington said:


> He was owned by the zoo and instead of them treating him they gave him to a rescue?
> That zoo needs to be shut down if that's true. A reputable zoo would not do that. They would treat it themselves or give to a zoo with more experience but not a rescue with no experience in the diagnosis if it's really epilepsy.


The zoo has a pretty bad reputation. I am surprised it never got shut down honestly. The group rescue is Placer County Tortoise Rescue. If you search his name which is Loki, there is a video a couple posts down. The rescue took him because I guess the zoo didn’t have an outdoor area for him either.


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## rrhoblit (Mar 6, 2020)

I love this rescue and the kind lady who runs it. I just want to be sure there isn’t something medically I could fix. I want to be able to give him the best life possible. But if that means having a couple seizures a day then I will obviously love him just the same.


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## wellington (Mar 6, 2020)

I wish I could see more than just that short video. If I had confidence the rescue knew what they were doing I'd say okay, they see more then I do. 
I see a tortoise moving on what might be some what of a slippery surface and in the way they do when you scratch their backs/butts. The head shaking I didnt see only a head moving in a way it would because of the way the body was moving. 
I'm not convinced its seizures.


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## wellington (Mar 6, 2020)

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1984163521855617?view=permalink&id=2407478499524115



@Yvonne G 
@Tom 
@Markw84 
See what you think about the Loki seizure?


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## Yvonne G (Mar 6, 2020)

I agree, Barb. It doesn't look like actual seizures, but rather some sort of neurological uncoordination.


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## ZenHerper (Mar 6, 2020)

rrhoblit said:


> The zoo has a pretty bad reputation. I am surprised it never got shut down honestly. The group rescue is Placer County Tortoise Rescue. If you search his name which is Loki, there is a video a couple posts down. The rescue took him because I guess the zoo didn’t have an outdoor area for him either.



Something neurological, for sure. Does he move normally/naturally at all other times? Do these episodes happen when he eats (so then what do you see?)? Videos before-during-after are more helpful.

Seizures can look a lot of different ways, depending on the part(s) of the brain affected. "Partial" seizures do not cause loss of consciousness and can even be consciously controlled/stopped by the subject.

Maximize his nutrition and temps. Keep him on surfaces where he cannot fall/flip over.

Thanks for rescuing!


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## Maggie3fan (Mar 6, 2020)

Yvonne G said:


> No, I've never come across a tortoise with seizures, sorry. But glad the oil seems to be helping. I bought some for pain in my thumb and it didn't do a thing for me.


My sister bought and used CBD oil???Hell musta froze over...hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...and HA!


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## rrhoblit (Mar 6, 2020)

wellington said:


> I wish I could see more than just that short video. If I had confidence the rescue knew what they were doing I'd say okay, they see more then I do.
> I see a tortoise moving on what might be some what of a slippery surface and in the way they do when you scratch their backs/butts. The head shaking I didnt see only a head moving in a way it would because of the way the body was moving.
> I'm not convinced its seizures.


At the rescue he is on dirt and does the same movements. If it is not a seizure, could this be a different neurological issue? I am hoping to pick him up in a week or so. I will try to gather more video. I do plan on taking him to our local vet school which is the top in our country to get their opinion as well. Thank you for taking a look and giving your input.


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## Tom (Mar 6, 2020)

wellington said:


> https://m.facebook.com/groups/1984163521855617?view=permalink&id=2407478499524115
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That doesn't look like a seizure to me. Looks like he's unstable on a slick surface and making a digging motion.

If he was housed indoors without UV, exercise, hydration and proper nutrition, he might well be having some MBD issues. The more I think about it, the more it looks like MBD. They get the shakes, weakness, and appear uncoordinated as MBD advances. Eventually, they appear to be paralyzed in the back end sometimes. I've seen similar symptoms in beardies and green iguanas.

I'g get him out in the sun, feed him weeds, grass and opuntia pads, add some calcium powder every other day for a little while and see how he does. I'll bet with the correct routine, this will stop in 4-6 weeks.


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## rrhoblit (Mar 6, 2020)

ZenHerper said:


> Something neurological, for sure. Does he move normally/naturally at all other times? Do these episodes happen when he eats (so then what do you see?)? Videos before-during-after are more helpful.
> 
> Seizures can look a lot of different ways, depending on the part(s) of the brain affected. "Partial" seizures do not cause loss of consciousness and can even be consciously controlled/stopped by the subject.
> 
> ...


Yes he moves normally most of the time. I personally haven’t seen one yet as I am picking him up in a week or so. The rescue did tell me that you can tell one is coming on because he gets a burst of energy and runs around is pen in a circle.


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## rrhoblit (Mar 6, 2020)

Tom said:


> That doesn't look like a seizure to me. Looks like he's unstable on a slick surface and making a digging motion.
> 
> If he was housed indoors without UV, exercise, hydration and proper nutrition, he might well be having some MBD issues. The more I think about it, the more it looks like MBD. They get the shakes, weakness, and appear uncoordinated as MBD advances. Eventually, they appear to be paralyzed in the back end sometimes. I've seen similar symptoms in beardies and green iguanas.
> 
> I'g get him out in the sun, feed him weeds, grass and opuntia pads, add some calcium powder every other day for a little while and see how he does. I'll bet with the correct routine, this will stop in 4-6 weeks.


Thank you for your advice. I pick him up in about a week so I will make sure he gets the best care.


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## ZenHerper (Mar 6, 2020)

rrhoblit said:


> Yes he moves normally most of the time. I personally haven’t seen one yet as I am picking him up in a week or so. The rescue did tell me that you can tell one is coming on because he gets a burst of energy and runs around is pen in a circle.


Yeah, I'd be interested to know what the univ finds. (My educational background is neuro.)

They'll want to see as much video as you can capture of the episodes and a comprehensive description of his behavior the rest of the time.

Although he may find touch grounding, I'd caution against touching his face. Keep your fingers clear of any potential spastic jaw involvement, and take care to not be knocked over. Maybe just a light downward pressure on his shell as you stand to one side. If things seem overly violent or stressful, try keeping a towel nearby to drop over his head...cutting the light can trigger calm.


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## Markw84 (Mar 6, 2020)

wellington said:


> https://m.facebook.com/groups/1984163521855617?view=permalink&id=2407478499524115
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I watched the video a few times and then saw @Tom 's reply. That is exactly what I was thinking. If you look at the very last frame of the video, you can see the abnormal 4th vertebral scute and that it is sunken a bit. MBD. Also it looks like it was injured there. Hard to see but that scute looks like its had trauma. That would be what look like a hit to the spine. Combined with MBD and calcium deficiency could be what is going on.

Does not look like a seizure.


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## JMM (Mar 8, 2020)

I would stop all medications--they may be doing more harm than good as most (in particular CBD) have not been evaluated for safety in tortoises. I would start the regimen suggested by Tom immediately. I would find someone who is experienced with tortoise veterinary care to do a thorough physical exam.


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## Sue Ann (Mar 8, 2020)

wellington said:


> https://m.facebook.com/groups/1984163521855617?view=permalink&id=2407478499524115
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Poor tort looks like he is on an incline and short nails and no substrate! Rescue wants $200 a month for meds from donors.....


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## Toddrickfl1 (Mar 8, 2020)

Just looks like he's trying to itch his Plastron to me.


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## Warren (Mar 8, 2020)

Markw84 said:


> I watched the video a few times and then saw @Tom 's reply. That is exactly what I was thinking. If you look at the very last frame of the video, you can see the abnormal 4th vertebral scute and that it is sunken a bit. MBD. Also it looks like it was injured there. Hard to see but that scute looks like its had trauma. That would be what look like a hit to the spine. Combined with MBD and calcium deficiency could be what is going on.
> 
> Does not look like a seizure.


I agree, looks like the whole 4th scute is missing. See alot of pink. Need to get his to a experience Vet, you would thing they would of address that proplem first. Feel bad for the Tortoise


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## queen koopa (Mar 8, 2020)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> Just looks like he's trying to itch his Plastron to me.


Yeah. Wonder what his underside looks like. I would hypothesis many things. But if it was in a s**t zoo, then I can see them righting it off on seizures and looking no further. I see that tort improving movement with Toms mentioned care above. He still has so much life to live!


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## Warren (Mar 8, 2020)

queen koopa said:


> Yeah. Wonder what his underside looks like. I would hypothesis many things. But if it was in a s**t zoo, then I can see them righting it off on seizures and looking no further. I see that tort improving movement with Toms mentioned care above. He still has so much life to live!


Easy to say something natural happened then take blame for the damage that they have done.


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## Warren (Mar 8, 2020)

Warren said:


> Easy to say something natural happened then take blame for the damage that they have done.


Tried to take a screenshot of his injury, best I could do.


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## Kipley (Mar 8, 2020)

Yvonne G said:


> No, I've never come across a tortoise with seizures, sorry. But glad the oil seems to be helping. I bought some for pain in my thumb and it didn't do a thing for me.


We've had amazing results using CBD/Cannabis oils with Greyhounds. We took in an 11 year old with severe arthritis that wasn't able to go up steps or run and was being treated with glucosamine and tramadol for pain. Within 6 weeks she was off the tramadol and running with our other Greyhounds. 
We had another Greyhound with a seizure disorder on phenobarbital which was making him lethargic. We were able to control his seizures with whole plant oil (CBD with some THC, legal here in WA) and get him off the phenobarbital. 


I can't imagine trying to determine a dose for a tortoise or any reptile! Best of luck and glad to hear this is helping.


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## Kipley (Mar 8, 2020)

wellington said:


> https://m.facebook.com/groups/1984163521855617?view=permalink&id=2407478499524115
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It looks like a petit mal seizure to me. The Greyhound we had started with petit mal - trance like staring that progressed to zombie like walking and staring - just totally disconnected, eventually he had two grand mal seizures which were the stereotypical shaking uncontrollably, slamming his head against the ground - like we expect a seizure to look like. 
In humans petit mal seizures aren't always typical, and they weren't in our Greyhound either. I suspect the same with tortoises? 
Interesting.


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## Gamera the Marginated (Mar 8, 2020)

maggie18fan said:


> My sister bought and used CBD oil???Hell musta froze over...hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...and HA!



CBG is better for pain, CBD works for my anxiety, PTSD. (At least to sleep)

I feel for that tortoise, hopefully you get him out of the rescue!
I agree CBD should stop for sure! get the T5 light on him and feed him like a king


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## Maggie3fan (Mar 8, 2020)

Gamera the Marginated said:


> CBG is better for pain, CBD works for my anxiety, PTSD. (At least to sleep)
> 
> I feel for that tortoise, hopefully you get him out of the rescue!
> I agree CBD should stop for sure! get the T5 light on him and feed him like a king



Please don't misunderstand my sentiment...my sis is beyond 80 yrs old and I am 74...she is tough, straight as an arrow, never approved of my love affair with drugs and simply a good person... I started smokin weed at about 10 yrs old...the only time I didn't smoke weed in my life was when I became an OTR truck driver...she has never approved of my antics...so to have my older respected sister admit to trying CBD oil AND then to freaking post that on a public forum was simply too funny not to laugh. As a matter of fact I reread that post this am and laughed out loud again!!!Hahahahahahah LOL lmao....roflmao....hahahahahahah well...maybe I am sorta getting carried away...NOT...hahahahahahahahahaha and HA!


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## Sue Ann (Mar 9, 2020)

maggie18fan said:


> Please don't misunderstand my sentiment...my sis is beyond 80 yrs old and I am 74...she is tough, straight as an arrow, never approved of my love affair with drugs and simply a good person... I started smokin weed at about 10 yrs old...the only time I didn't smoke weed in my life was when I became an OTR truck driver...she has never approved of my antics...so to have my older respected sister admit to trying CBD oil AND then to freaking post that on a public forum was simply too funny not to laugh. As a matter of fact I reread that post this am and laughed out loud again!!!Hahahahahahah LOL lmao....roflmao....hahahahahahah well...maybe I am sorta getting carried away...NOT...hahahahahahahahahaha and HA!


Love as only a sister could share! ??


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## Maggie3fan (Mar 9, 2020)

Sue Ann said:


> Love as only a sister could share! ??


Yep! That's true...and my hardhearted sister would help me if I asked, even when she is mad at me...we are so different, and I mean at opposite ends of the spectrum...but we have remained close friends all these years, she has helped me constantly thru out the years with advice on my torts and birds...but I learned to NEVER mention my speeding tickets...or my jail arrests which I think are funny and which pisses her off big time...(oh lord, lmao again)


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## rrhoblit (Mar 9, 2020)

Warren said:


> I agree, looks like the whole 4th scute is missing. See alot of pink. Need to get his to a experience Vet, you would thing they would of address that proplem first. Feel bad for the Tortoise


Yes there is a severe indentation there. The previous owners had two and painted one red and the other blue. The pink you see is the red paint that the rescue had been slowly buffing off


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## Gamera the Marginated (Mar 9, 2020)

Wow, They painted them... I am at a loss for words


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