# New baby sulcata lethargic



## Yoda0916 (Oct 4, 2016)

Hello everyone, I hate that my first post here is somewhat on a negative note. So I got my baby sulcata at the Arlington TX reptile show from the LLLREPTILES booth. They all seemed healthy and I read they are a reputable breeder. Yoda os about 2 1/2" in carapace. The first week I kept him/her was on a 40 gal breeder tank on moist cypress mulch, cool end about 75-80, basking spot 100. I just finishing building him a proper tortouse table 2'X6', the hide area maintains a humidity level of no less than 80% then it graduates to about 50% on the hot side. The temps right under the basking spot is 100 to 105, around the warm side anywhere from 80 to 90. Then at the cool end can drop to 75. The UVB is a zoomed 10.0 strip. 

He was fine, active, and eating up until 4 days ago. Now he barely stops sleeping and barely opens his eyes. I will admit the first week I got him I was extremely busy and he only got a quick soak in the morning. After I noticed his decline I have started giving him at least a 20 minute soak. It's been 2 days since I started giving him the 20 minute baths but still no improvement. Today I gave him a bath in half water and half carrot baby food. He perked up a bit opened his eyes and walked past his food to go to sleep. I have not seen him it in the past 4 days but I have noticed small stools through his cage. I even took off work to monitor him but have not seen him noble on food at all.

What I was feeding him before the decline and after was bermuda/saint augustine grass, hibiscus leaves, some flowers, and store greens.

Please let me know if there's anything else I can do.


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## Jodie (Oct 4, 2016)

Pictures of your enclosure might help us identify any issues. I would bump the low temps to 80F to 85F to start with. Are you using any coiled type bulbs? They can cause eye problems.


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## GingerLove (Oct 4, 2016)

Maybe the UVB light is defective? My tortoise was very lethargic when the light went bad. And yes, pictures of the enclosure would help considerably!


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## wellington (Oct 4, 2016)

I am thinking he was started too dry. Give him soaks every day, morning and night. Get the humidity all over not less then 80% and do not let temps day or night go below 80. I would add piedialyte to the carrot soaks.


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## Fredkas (Oct 4, 2016)

I do want to know what cause it. I see LLLReptile adv here. I think they know what they are doing for being in the forum, isn't it? I think maybe the baby not started dry. Keep us update. Welcome to the forum and hope your tort pull through.


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## Tom (Oct 4, 2016)

I don't want to speculate about what is happening there based on such a limited amount of info.

LLL _is_ a reputable seller, forum sponsor, and Loren is a friend of mine. Having said that, they do buy a lot of sulcata babies from a lot of breeders to fill their HUGE sales volume, and it is possible that they got a batch from a breeder that started them too dry. Possible. I'm not saying that is what is happening here, only that its possible.

Yoda,
All you can do at this point is offer the best care possible and wait and see. There may be some tips in here that will improve things. Will you please take a moment to read through these:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/


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## Yoda0916 (Oct 4, 2016)

Thank you all for the quick response. Here is a pic of my enclosure, it is made of maple laminated wood and line with sheet metal inside to protect from humidity. The UVB is a zoomed 10.0, the strip kind, not coil. I have used it on my bearded dragons with no problem. I will change the bulb just in case even though it has no more than 6 months use.




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The big hide is all the way on the left and the trunk hide in the middle. The lamp in the middle is a CHE which stays onn24/7.


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## wellington (Oct 4, 2016)

You need to make it a closed chamber. Humidity can not be kept up in an open top. Temps can't be maintained correctly either, except where the heat/bulbs hits. For older torts, 2 plus years, an open enclosure can work fine, but not with little ones.


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## cmacusa3 (Oct 4, 2016)

I agree with above, no way to maintain proper heat and humidity, that baby is getting cold at night and if the substrate is wet that is a huge problem.


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## Yoda0916 (Oct 4, 2016)

I will get to work this weekend on constructing a frame and covering it with some kind of plastic to make it as closed as possible. What about ventilation? Should I have some.kind of vent somewhere for fresh air? 

I also wanted to add that his decline started before being placed in this enclosure. He was kept on a 40 gal breeder with half the top covered and humidity was constantly around 80 there. But I do agree that with this table design I have to constatly be adding water as the substrate dries really fast under the heat, so a making it closed will be in the works ASAP!


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## cmacusa3 (Oct 4, 2016)

No ventilation needed, plenty of air will still be in there. A PVC a frame with a plastic cover of any type would be a quick fix. I like the enclosure and seems to be a good size for the time being. Those changes are definitely needed so I would Read those care sheets Tom posted and it will help you understand more of what you can do.


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## cmacusa3 (Oct 4, 2016)

Abramsmytankturtle said:


> No ventilation needed, plenty of air will still be in there. A PVC a frame with a plastic cover of any type would be a quick fix. I like the enclosure and seems to be a good size for the time being. Those changes are definitely needed so I would Read those care sheets Tom posted and it will help you understand more of what you can do.



Also about the breeder tank, you were letting the temps drop below 80, that's not a good idea when attempting to keep the humidity high, that leads to sickness. I'm betting in the new enclosure the only good temps were right around the CHE and everything else was ambient room temps.


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## Yoda0916 (Oct 4, 2016)

Abramsmytankturtle said:


> Also about the breeder tank, you were letting the temps drop below 80, that's not a good idea when attempting to keep the humidity high, that leads to sickness. I'm betting in the new enclosure the only good temps were right around the CHE and everything else was ambient room temps.


You are right about the new enclosure. Only around the CHE is the temp 80 ish. That's why I relocate him there as soon as lights go off. But yeah I need to find a longer term solution. An a frame hopefully will fix that.


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## Tom (Oct 4, 2016)

Yoda0916 said:


> What about ventilation? Should I have some kind of vent somewhere for fresh air?



Your enclosure will not be "air tight". Enough air will leak in to give your tortoise all the oxygen he needs.

Ventilation will ventilate all your warm humid air out into the room and replace it with cool dry air. Preventing this is the whole reason for building a closed chamber in the first place. RIght?


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## Yoda0916 (Oct 4, 2016)

Tom said:


> Your enclosure will not be "air tight". Enough air will leak in to give your tortoise all the oxygen he needs.
> 
> Ventilation will ventilate all your warm humid air out into the room and replace it with cool dry air. Preventing this is the whole reason for building a closed chamber in the first place. RIght?


Makes perfect sense.


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## Yoda0916 (Oct 5, 2016)

I just gave him his morning bath for the day and still see no improvement. He seems to be having trouble opening his eyes. When I take him out of the water he will just walk forward with eyes closed in his enclosure until he hits a wall and stays there to sleep. The only thing I have yet to do is a pedialyte bath. I will do that in a few hours.


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## cmacusa3 (Oct 5, 2016)

My thought is you need to put him back in that breeder tank for now and close it up to keep him warm and don't let any temp drop below 83-85


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## Gillian M (Oct 5, 2016)

Yoda0916 said:


> Thank you all for the quick response. Here is a pic of my enclosure, it is made of maple laminated wood and line with sheet metal inside to protect from humidity. The UVB is a zoomed 10.0, the strip kind, not coil. I have used it on my bearded dragons with no problem. I will change the bulb just in case even though it has no more than 6 months use.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




A lovely enclosure. What about the tort?


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## Gillian M (Oct 5, 2016)

Welcome to the forum!

Please note that torts do not like change. It's going to take you tort some time to adapt. So do not worry.


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## cmacusa3 (Oct 5, 2016)

Gillian Moore said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> Please note that torts do not like change. It's going to take you tort some time to adapt. So do not worry.



yes he should be worried, there is obvious issues here.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 5, 2016)

Yoda0916 said:


> I will get to work this weekend on constructing a frame and covering it with some kind of plastic to make it as closed as possible. What about ventilation? Should I have some.kind of vent somewhere for fresh air?
> 
> I also wanted to add that his decline started before being placed in this enclosure. He was kept on a 40 gal breeder with half the top covered and humidity was constantly around 80 there. But I do agree that with this table design I have to constatly be adding water as the substrate dries really fast under the heat, so a making it closed will be in the works ASAP!



As long as you're going to be working on the habitat, maybe you can give some thought to this: I'm not a scientist, and I have no formal education on the subject, but I'm thinking of when one accidentally bites down on a piece of foil, how it sends a shock wave through your system. In my opinion, I would get rid of the metal liner and use plastic or something else. I don't know if the metal is conducting any sort of "shock" to the baby, but they do treat it with harsh chemicals. My husband was a welder and some of the smells that came off metal when he welded were pretty toxic. (I even used pond liner in my 600 gallon aluminum horse trough because I didn't want to poison my fish and turtle)


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## Yvonne G (Oct 5, 2016)

Until you can get the baby up and acting normal, place him in a smaller, hospital tank. If you have an old 10 gallon aquarium laying around someplace that would do nicely. Keep it about 85F overall day and night and keep it covered. Keep the substrate moist. When you soak the baby, add a half jar of Gerber strained carrots to the soaking water, and leave him in it for at least 30 minutes, longer is even better. If you do this daily you should see a marked improvement in three days. 

During this hospital period, tune up the habitat where the baby is going to live. Get it the way it's supposed to be so that when he's better he can be put into an up and running, good-for-babies habitat.


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## Jodie (Oct 5, 2016)

I would definitely go the hospital tank route with this baby. Plenty of consistent heat.


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## Yoda0916 (Oct 5, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> Until you can get the baby up and acting normal, place him in a smaller, hospital tank. If you have an old 10 gallon aquarium laying around someplace that would do nicely. Keep it about 85F overall day and night and keep it covered. Keep the substrate moist. When you soak the baby, add a half jar of Gerber strained carrots to the soaking water, and leave him in it for at least 30 minutes, longer is even better. If you do this daily you should see a marked improvement in three days.
> 
> During this hospital period, tune up the habitat where the baby is going to live. Get it the way it's supposed to be so that when he's better he can be put into an up and running, good-for-babies habitat.


Will do this as I work on covering his new enclosure. If I don't see him improve by Saturday I will be making a vet apt.


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## Yoda0916 (Oct 5, 2016)

Here is Yoda his first day home. I had to remove that rock cave because he would climb it so much and flipped once so I freaked out about it.


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## Yoda0916 (Oct 5, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> As long as you're going to be working on the habitat, maybe you can give some thought to this: I'm not a scientist, and I have no formal education on the subject, but I'm thinking of when one accidentally bites down on a piece of foil, how it sends a shock wave through your system. In my opinion, I would get rid of the metal liner and use plastic or something else. I don't know if the metal is conducting any sort of "shock" to the baby, but they do treat it with harsh chemicals. My husband was a welder and some of the smells that came off metal when he welded were pretty toxic. (I even used pond liner in my 600 gallon aluminum horse trough because I didn't want to poison my fish and turtle)


I was actually going to line all the sides including the metal part with acuarium background. I never thought galvanized steel gave off any kind of toxicity, I remember my grandpa bringim milk home straight from a galvanized steel can. But a backdrop aquarium liner should give it a barrier so the tort is not making direct contact. I do imagine any metal when being molten together such as welding will give off lots of fumes but I won't be welding in Yodas cage


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## Yoda0916 (Oct 5, 2016)

I just finished setting up the "hospital enclosure" the part that is covered is the cool side and it reads 83f 99% humidity, warm side is 90f and 99 at the basking spot, humidity reads 77%. 
Only the spot lamp is on, the CHE will be to hopefully maintain night temps above 80


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## cmacusa3 (Oct 5, 2016)

wrap the screen with foil and then cut out holes for the CHE and light. Then cut out a small hole in the screen under the light, so it doesn't filter any of the lights UVB


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## Yoda0916 (Oct 5, 2016)

Abramsmytankturtle said:


> wrap the screen with foil and then cut out holes for the CHE and light. Then cut out a small hole in the screen under the light, so it doesn't filter any of the lights UVB


Ah that's an even better idea, thank you!


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## Yoda0916 (Oct 12, 2016)

Quick update on Yoda and also wanted to share how I have managed my little guy to get some food in him. As you all know Yoda had not been opening his eyes and stopped eating. Yesterday I filled a salad bowl with MizurI tortoise diet, zoomed, and chopped greens and grasses all mixed. After his carrot/water bath I placed him in the salad bowl and he began to munch. So I am stoked that he at least is eating some. He is also starting to open his eyes slightly. I think part of the reason he would not eat is because he could no see. So pass this info along if anyone has a shut eye baby no eating.


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## Kasia (Oct 12, 2016)

Yoda0916 said:


> Quick update on Yoda and also wanted to share how I have managed my little guy to get some food in him. As you all know Yoda had not been opening his eyes and stopped eating. Yesterday I filled a salad bowl with MizurI tortoise diet, zoomed, and chopped greens and grasses all mixed. After his carrot/water bath I placed him in the salad bowl and he began to munch. So I am stoked that he at least is eating some. He is also starting to open his eyes slightly. I think part of the reason he would not eat is because he could no see. So pass this info along if anyone has a shut eye baby no eating.


Does he poop? Is it diarhea or more solid like? Get his stool to the Vets, parasites can give all above mentioned things - lack of appetite, swollen eyes and overall lethargy.


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## Yoda0916 (Oct 12, 2016)

This is his first poop in over a week, kinda hard to tell as it was in his bath.


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## Kasia (Oct 12, 2016)

Yoda0916 said:


> This is his first poop in over a week, kinda hard to tell as it was in his bath.


Looks ok, it's small cause he doesn't eat much probably. Still if he is not getting better I would take him to a reptile Vet specialists. I see that you are very committed to this shell baby and even if it is hatchling failure syndrome you would like to be a 100% sure that you did everything it's out there to save him. Hugs and kisses for Yoda:*


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## Fredkas (Oct 13, 2016)

Fight that damn whatever diseases that make your tort lethargic. I know you can do it. That poop looks ok for me, i am newbie though. But i think he will be good starting from now on. I am praying for you and the little one.


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## Yoda0916 (Oct 18, 2016)

Quick update, Yoda seems to be improving! He is eating and pooping daily now. He still squints his eyes a bit but definitely looks like he is improving. Also I made an addition to his table to make it as closed as possible. My only concern now is that his shell seems to have white flaky areas as if it was too dry but I bathe him daily. Every other day in carrot baby food/water. Here are some pics below. I am starting to think ot may be just water stains?


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## cmacusa3 (Oct 18, 2016)

looks great!! Amazing job.


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## Fredkas (Oct 18, 2016)

Wow nice enclosure. You make me jealous. I am happy for you. Stick around. And update yoda frequently for us.


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## Yoda0916 (Nov 3, 2016)

Hey guys don't want to start a new thread to ask a quick question. Is there such a thing as over misting? I mist Yoda about every 2 to 3 hours, never after lights out. I also bathe daily and that has seemed to be working well.


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## GingerLove (Nov 3, 2016)

If they are wet all the time (mostly on their bottom shell) then it can cause shell rot, I've heard. If you are soaking your tort, I always figured you never had to mist. Might be wrong.


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## cmacusa3 (Nov 3, 2016)

GingerLove said:


> If they are wet all the time (mostly on their bottom shell) then it can cause shell rot, I've heard. If you are soaking your tort, I always figured you never had to mist. Might be wrong.



It won't cause shell rot with a Sulcata and you can spray him all you want.


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## GingerLove (Nov 3, 2016)

Oh, cool.  Shoulda gotta sulcata.  (Just kidding, love my Russian.)


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## Yoda0916 (Nov 3, 2016)

Haha good,He has been doing very well after he's daily regime of daily baths and constant misting. I am still trying to nurse him back to full health so thus seems to work for now and


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## Fredkas (Nov 4, 2016)

I will add. i dont spray my sulcata because i am not around him in the day time, but i never wipe dry him.
I soak him morning and night. at night when i finished soak him and put him in his enclosure, he will goes directly to his hide in wet condition and stay there until morning, the temp inside his hide is 82F to 85F. his shell and plastron are great. i do this for 4 months. i think this is long enough to say no shell rot. 
One more thing, his hide is dripping wet, 99% of humidity, and he goes to his hide every night on his own.
I am doing extreme wet environment


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## Fredkas (Nov 4, 2016)

If you need to see him. he is light color sulcata.


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## Yoda0916 (Nov 4, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> If you need to see him. he is light color sulcata.


Wow! he or she is extremely beautiful!


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## jockma (Nov 4, 2016)

Adorable!! I love the dark new growth, the shell is so pretty.

@Yoda0916 how is yours doing now?


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## Yoda0916 (Nov 4, 2016)

jockma said:


> Adorable!! I love the dark new growth, the shell is so pretty.
> 
> @Yoda0916 how is yours doing now?


She is doing so much better, gets up in the morning, poops, eats, then basks. I am still closely monitoring as she does still have some trouble opening up her eyes late in the day but he/she has definitely improved.


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## Fredkas (Nov 4, 2016)

Yoda0916 said:


> She is doing so much better, gets up in the morning, poops, eats, then basks. I am still closely monitoring as she does still have some trouble opening up her eyes late in the day but he/she has definitely improved.


One time i have this problem too. i searched entire forum, there are several reasons cause this. it so confuse because tort happens to show their illness through closed eyes. then i finally get the easiest way first. i give him shredded carrot mix with his mazuri, he likes it. and 2 times giving him this carrot, his eyes is ok until now. so.. in my case, my tort is cure using shredded carrot. from that time, i always give him shredded carrot mix with his mazuri 2x a week.
You can try this, it doesn't hurt the tort. 

I see that your tort is doing better, maybe add a shredded carrot will make everything perfect. i am not expert but i think 2x a week for carrot already in its maximum for sulcata, sulcata should not eat this too much. but i just feel convenient that way.


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## Yoda0916 (Nov 5, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> One time i have this problem too. i searched entire forum, there are several reasons cause this. it so confuse because tort happens to show their illness through closed eyes. then i finally get the easiest way first. i give him shredded carrot mix with his mazuri, he likes it. and 2 times giving him this carrot, his eyes is ok until now. so.. in my case, my tort is cure using shredded carrot. from that time, i always give him shredded carrot mix with his mazuri 2x a week.
> You can try this, it doesn't hurt the tort.
> 
> I see that your tort is doing better, maybe add a shredded carrot will make everything perfect. i am not expert but i think 2x a week for carrot already in its maximum for sulcata, sulcata should not eat this too much. but i just feel convenient that way.



I was actually feeding shredded carrots once a week so I do think it may have been do in part with Vitamin A deficiency. I will step it up to 2 times a week and see if that makes it better.


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## JoesMum (Nov 5, 2016)

Yoda0916 said:


> I was actually feeding shredded carrots once a week so I do think it may have been do in part with Vitamin A deficiency. I will step it up to 2 times a week and see if that makes it better.


I wouldn't step up the carrot

Sulcatas can't process the sugars in them properly - sugars cause digestive and kidney problems - so carrot, fruit, tomato and bell pepper should only be fed very sparingly and very occasionally. 

If you need a vitamin supplement then get liquid bird vitamins from a pet store and add them to soak water.


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## Fredkas (Nov 5, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> I wouldn't step up the carrot
> 
> Sulcatas can't process the sugars in them properly - sugars cause digestive and kidney problems - so carrot, fruit, tomato and bell pepper should only be fed very sparingly and very occasionally.
> 
> If you need a vitamin supplement then get liquid bird vitamins from a pet store and add them to soak water.


This is what concern me about carrot. i agree so much with this


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## Yoda0916 (Nov 5, 2016)

Wow, no offense to anyone but there is so much conflicting information with these little guys! I am new to tortoises but not to other reptiles such a beardies and I am a bit disappointed that there is so much conflicting stuff going around with these guys :/ 

Some people say carrots are fine 2 to 3 times a week and others say no more than once?


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## cmacusa3 (Nov 5, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> I wouldn't step up the carrot
> 
> Sulcatas can't process the sugars in them properly - sugars cause digestive and kidney problems - so carrot, fruit, tomato and bell pepper should only be fed very sparingly and very occasionally.
> 
> If you need a vitamin supplement then get liquid bird vitamins from a pet store and add them to soak water.




Agree! sorry but Fred is new to this. Take the advice of people with experience. Ask @Tom what he would do. I've never feed or soaked my sully carrots. 

No offense to Fred but I think the advice is bad


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## Fredkas (Nov 5, 2016)

Abramsmytankturtle said:


> Agree! sorry but Fred is new to this. Take the advice of people with experience. Ask @Tom what he would do. I've never feed or soaked my sully carrots.
> 
> No offense to Fred but I think the advice is bad


Yes!!! No offense at all. Take it easy. 
i told you before @Yoda0916 twice is maximum, and that is mix. you should follow anyone that is more experienced than me. let's go with once a week max and that is mix with other food. and try eliminate it. i think i'am starting to do it too .
So no conflicting anymore. feed once a week and try to eliminate it. i am very much agree with this. occasionally is good.
I am sorry i messed it up.


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## Yoda0916 (Nov 5, 2016)

Will do that guys, thx for the advice. What greens can I feed that are high in Vitamin A?


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## JoesMum (Nov 5, 2016)

Yoda0916 said:


> Will do that guys, thx for the advice. What greens can I feed that are high in Vitamin A?


The dark leafy greens are high in vitamin A as well as other vitamins. So feeding a good healthy diet of greens - particularly the darker ones should give your tort everything it needs.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 5, 2016)

Yoda0916 said:


> Wow, no offense to anyone but there is so much conflicting information with these little guys! I am new to tortoises but not to other reptiles such a beardies and I am a bit disappointed that there is so much conflicting stuff going around with these guys :/
> 
> Some people say carrots are fine 2 to 3 times a week and others say no more than once?



Taking care of tortoises isn't a one-size-fits-all proposition. We all do what works for us. Trial and error.


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## Yoda0916 (Nov 6, 2016)

So I just saw Toms average weight post and realized Yoda was underweight when I got her. He/she was 30 grams the day after I picked he/she from lllreptiles at the show in Arlington. Today, a month and a half later she is 34 grams. Is this weight norma? After seeing that the average hatchling weight is over 40 grams I am kind of worried about Yoda.


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## Fredkas (Nov 6, 2016)

Yoda0916 said:


> So I just saw Toms average weight post and realized Yoda was underweight when I got her. He/she was 30 grams the day after I picked he/she from lllreptiles at the show in Arlington. Today, a month and a half later she is 34 grams. Is this weight norma? After seeing that the average hatchling weight is over 40 grams I am kind of worried about Yoda.


Normal. they do have different weight. as long as he is growing and active and everything set up right, you just need to wait and see. they will hit their growth spurt soon enough.


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## Fredkas (Nov 11, 2016)

How is the little one doing? @Yoda0916


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## jenniferrivello (Mar 30, 2018)

My tort is having similar issues, but his shell is getting soft and he seems to be retaining water. Vet appointment is later today, hopefully not bad news.


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## TechnoCheese (Mar 30, 2018)

jenniferrivello said:


> My tort is having similar issues, but his shell is getting soft and he seems to be retaining water. Vet appointment is later today, hopefully not bad news.



Hello, Jennifer. Please make a post that tells us your temperatures, humidity, what you feed, your lighting, and gives us a picture of your enclosure, and other important details so that we can help you.
Welcome to the forum!


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## Tom (Mar 30, 2018)

jenniferrivello said:


> My tort is having similar issues, but his shell is getting soft and he seems to be retaining water. Vet appointment is later today, hopefully not bad news.


Save your money. There is nothing the vet can do, and most of them make it worse with calcium or "vitamin" injections. Read this:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/
Vets can't fix this problem.


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