# Are Star Tortoises really not territorial? Is it ok to keep them in pairs?



## jptv (Oct 26, 2016)

There are many contradicting posts in the internet. Let's vote Yes or No and find out.


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## JoesMum (Oct 26, 2016)

Let's not start world war 3 

We don't need a vote over this. It will prove nothing and merely reopen the many other debates that have been had on this. 

Some people say they keep them successfully as pairs. We have had a regular stream through here that haven't. 

As with other species, if there's sufficient space then you may get away with it and then again you may not.

NB This is OP's first post. Read into that what you will


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## jptv (Oct 26, 2016)

As of this time. I got 3 Yes votes and 2 No votes from my friends. And an abstain vote from you. Don't worry bro, I'm just collecting data to help me on deciding to get a partner for my female indian star. Thanks.


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## JoesMum (Oct 26, 2016)

You'd do better as a first post to get people onside by introducing yourself and getting to know people than by starting out with a flame wars topic.


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## wellington (Oct 26, 2016)

Another no here. How much do your friends know? There are many threads here of why tortoises don't do good in pairs. If you want another, get another female you will have a better chance of them getting along. However, you need to have an appropriate size enclosure. Not the typical 20 or 40 gallon aquarium that so many newbies think is an appropriate home for an animal that covers lots of ground in the wild. If you want to breed, then get another female and one male, with an even bigger enclosure and the room to separate them when or if needed.


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## G-stars (Oct 26, 2016)

Personally I don't keep my stars in pairs. From my observations even star hatchlings that are kept in pairs, there is always one who is the more dominate one and that will affect the other one. Slower growth and hiding more is common. 

However if kept in 3 or more I don't usually notice it as much. This also will vary if you have 2 mature males vs a pair. In general star species aren't as aggressive as most of the other species. However there are exceptions. I know of a few males that can only be kept with the female for breeding purposes then they must be removed because they are aggressive breeders.


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## jptv (Oct 26, 2016)

Thanks Wellington. Now it's a tie. 3 all.  My friends are breeders for more than a decade already. If my question is about russian tortoises, most probably they will all say No. And I will say no also. I'm just curious with stars.


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## jptv (Oct 26, 2016)

Noted G-stars!  Thanks bro. 3 yes. 4 no. 1 abstain. Hoping that at the end of this thread I can get a better statistics like majority or more than 70% said NO!


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## wellington (Oct 26, 2016)

jptv said:


> Thanks Wellington. Now it's a tie. 3 all.  My friends are breeders for more than a decade already. If my question is about russian tortoises, most probably they will all say No. And I will say no also. I'm just curious with stars.


I think another thing that has to be taken into consideration first and foremost is how they are doing it Male to Female ratio and also size of enclosure and sight barriers, number of hides and feeding stations. Just to say yes it can be done, does not tell the whole story of how can it be done.


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## Anyfoot (Oct 26, 2016)

I don't know what sort of temperament stars have, but redfoots have a pretty good one, I have a male and female redfoot in quarantine and the male is hounding the female constantly(I'll have to split the quarantine bay in two). 
So for that reason im going to say NO.


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## jptv (Oct 26, 2016)

In my opinion it is a yes! And that will count 4 all. Let's see how will it work. I will add some hiding place and a separate food dishes.  Currently I have an extra large rabbit cage like 3x4 feet with soil, bermuda grasses, cactus plants, forest floor substrate, exo terra tortoise cave and a power sun.


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## JoesMum (Oct 26, 2016)

jptv said:


> In my opinion it is a yes! And that will count 4 all. Let's see how will it work. I will add some hiding place and a separate food dishes.  Currently I have an extra large rabbit cage like 3x4 feet with soil, bermuda grasses, cactus plants, forest floor substrate, exo terra tortoise cave and a power sun.


How big is your tortoise?

The quarantine point is a good one. You should always keep a new tortoise entirely separately in quarantine for at least 6 months before introduction. This is to ensure that neither makes the other sick


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 26, 2016)

Like any voting process you don't have to be informed to vote. Voting will reveal nothing no matter the statistical analysis you may be capable of. 

Any paring of animals, or even cells for that matter, in an enclosed space creates a subordinate/dominate dynamic "a competition". This will result in a life long stress that can not be relieved by the subordinate animals interest to move on. Even the dominate animal experiences stress in that it is not able to reconcile why the subordinate animal is still there. This is not an in-the-mind dynamic but one that plays out in hormone feedback, that's evident in that cells do the same thing, I don't believe cells have minds.

Even pair bonding animals in the wild are not restricted by enclosure space and spend time apart and interacting with others.

Here's something for you to consider, drive your car at 80 mph into a overpass support column. There is a slight chance it will be okay. Tell us about how that works out for you. I vote you do it to see if it will work.


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## jptv (Oct 26, 2016)

4 Yes 5 No 2 Abstain.  I need more data on this. Thanks for sharing your experiences and opinions.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 26, 2016)

No (and as everyone here on the Forum knows, I have loads of experience with star tortoises **)

**Insert sarcasm here


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## jptv (Oct 26, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> How big is your tortoise?
> 
> The quarantine point is a good one. You should always keep a new tortoise entirely separately in quarantine for at least 6 months before introduction. This is to ensure that neither makes the other sick



5 inches.


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## wellington (Oct 26, 2016)

jptv said:


> In my opinion it is a yes! And that will count 4 all. Let's see how will it work. I will add some hiding place and a separate food dishes.  Currently I have an extra large rabbit cage like 3x4 feet with soil, bermuda grasses, cactus plants, forest floor substrate, exo terra tortoise cave and a power sun.


3x4 is not extra large in tortoise husbandry. That size cage along says NO. A 4x8 is minimum for one smaller species, Russians, Hermans, etc as and adult and hopefully that's with also an outdoor enclosure. Your 3x4 is fine for one hatchling and no where near big enough for one adult let alone two.


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## Team Gomberg (Oct 26, 2016)

No


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## Tom (Oct 26, 2016)

Star tortoises are not as aggressive and overtly hostile as some other species, but they still should not be housed in pairs. Groups can often work out fine, but not pairs.

If you want to get a second one, just house it separately and once quarantine is done and you are satisfied that both are healthy, put them together periodically for breeding, then let them both go back to their peaceful lives in separate enclosures. This will greatly reduce the stress on your female.


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## Neal (Oct 26, 2016)

You can consider me a "No".

I usually don't comment on the keeping tortoises in pairs debate for a lot of reasons but I will in this case because, apparently, your plan is to keep two tortoises in a 3*4 enclosure. This will likely end badly for your tortoises.

I'm not trying to toss you under the bus or anything, but without knowing anything about you I have to focus my concerns on the well being of the tortoises. I can only hope you conduct more research on the matter than a TFO poll before making a decision.


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## Gillian M (Oct 26, 2016)

Hi @jptv and a very warm welcome to the forum. 

Sorry, won't be able to answer your question/vote. Am no tort expert.


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## jptv (Oct 26, 2016)

Interesting. Thanks for all the feedback. Looks like 80% said No.  I'll give it a try and have it in close monitoring. If it won't work, I'll add another female and get a bigger enclosure. I am a fighting cokcs (Roosters) breeder for decades already/ a doberman breeder and the trio (2 female, 1 male) always works for me. Let's see how it works with star tortoises.  Btw I'm a newbie for tortoise. My pet dog died of old age. I was emotionally attached to him. Then I realized that a tortoise can live for decades/ a century


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## Neal (Oct 26, 2016)

I'm just curious...how are you going to determine if it's "working" or not? Tortoises are very good at hiding stress and illness. Given that you're a newbie, I would be concerned that you have no idea what to look for and it would be too late for the tortoises by the time you realize it isn't working

I'm surprised that you are putting so much trust in the minority. I'm all for going against the grain if you have a valid reason for doing so, but if you're planning on keeping two, apparently sub-adults, in a 3* 4 enclosure I cannot stress enough about how stupid of an idea that is.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here but I believe you are putting two tortoises lives in danger and I've not read a valid reason for doing so from your posts.


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## wellington (Oct 26, 2016)

I totally agree with Neal. So many things against even trying, at least now. Not sure why you even posted the question if you weren't going to take anyone's advice. You don't even have a proper size enclosure for one adult let alone more then one. You are setting this up to fail before you even get started. The sad thing is, the tortoises pay for your mistakes. You also mention them out living you. So why start them out to fail right off the bat? Get a better set up, whether a proper sized indoor enclosure and better yet a proper outdoor enclosure in size, sight barriers, etc before jumping in to something you really know nothing about.


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## Team Gomberg (Oct 26, 2016)

If you fight roosters for a living, you are used to seeing a very outgoing form of aggression. Tortoises will not display the same aggressive behaviors as your roosters, giving you a much harder time trying to identify it.


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## jptv (Oct 26, 2016)

Chill!  As I mentioned "in close monitoring"  I have a helper to check it most of the time when I'm away. If one of them skip their regular meal for no reason maybe that's the time I will transfer them to a bigger enclosure. The reason why I put my tort in a rabbit cage because we have dogs. Dogs see them as walking bone. 

I also knew people that has pair of tortoise for more than 10 years already and no problem with it that's why I'm still open minded on it. Thanks for all your feedback.


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## JoesMum (Oct 27, 2016)

jptv said:


> Chill!  As I mentioned "in close monitoring"  I have a helper to check it most of the time when I'm away. If one of them skip their regular meal for no reason maybe that's the time I will transfer them to a bigger enclosure. The reason why I put my tort in a rabbit cage because we have dogs. Dogs see them as walking bone.
> 
> I also knew people that has pair of tortoise for more than 10 years already and no problem with it that's why I'm still open minded on it. Thanks for all your feedback.


The important points from this thread:

1. 3' x 4' isn't big enough for your single 5" tortoise. Fix that first. 

2. If you get a second, it must be kept entirely separately in quarantine for at least six months to make sure that neither makes the other sick. 

3. Some/many/a few/all the people who voted may or may not have any experience of tortoises, Indian stars and/or bullying. There's no telling. Having a vote is meaningless. 

You appear to have started this thread with no intention of changing your mind. I do wonder if I'd find similar threads on other reptile forums started by you if I bothered to Google. 

I may have abstained, but points one and two above are important and you should at least take note of those. 

I wish your tortoise well.


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## jptv (Oct 27, 2016)

Noted JoesMum.  Thanks.  Do you have star tortoises too?


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## ZEROPILOT (Oct 27, 2016)

I keep Redfoot. A species that I think most consider to be one of the more peaceful tortoise species. But even they are not immune to bullying. I have four. One male. Three females in a very large outdoors enclosure.
How I arrived at that number and with these tortoise was by no accident.
I had to add and remove tortoises that fought or were bullied, etc. until I found a group that worked. This took a long time.
A LOT of the harmful, aggressive behavior looks like not much of anything. (Following each other around. Sleeping in the same spot.) To the untrained eye, some keepers think that this is them being friends. Tortoises don't make friends. And not all of the aggression will result in a missing eye or a bitten off tail. But all aggression can lead to sick tortoises.
There is also the issue of keeping a pair together for breeding. Very often the male will try to breed with one female 24/7 and the female will get very, very weak and ill. So for breeding you need to either 1: Have several females with one male in a VERY large enclosure with hiding spots and sight barriers. Or 2: Remove the female, or male into its own enclosure shortly after mating.


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## ZEROPILOT (Oct 27, 2016)

Also, Yes.
DO quarantine any new tortoise.


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## Star-of-India (Nov 1, 2016)

Stars can definitely have dominance issues. I have one large adult female who is dominant to the 4 males she is in a pen with. She doesn't take any grief and when she is hungry, watch out if you're in the way. She just walks over the smaller males. 

I have a subadult female housed separately who had been housed peacefully with some of the males when they were subadult too. However, she was then abused constantly by the males when they matured sexually. For a while I was able to keep her with my large adult female and they behaved very peacefully with each other. However, she was then attacked unrelentingly by the dominant female when the dominant female became ready to lay eggs this past spring.


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## Jodie (Nov 1, 2016)

My standard answer to multiples is it might work. If it doesn't though, you have to separate them. If you can't maintain multiple enclosures, do not get multiple tortoises. If you think it is working, but one gets sick or isn't growing, it isn't working for them.


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## Fredkas (Nov 4, 2016)

find the solution for you if you don't want only one star. keep at least 3 stars, and at least triple the enclosure size. this is way better rather than keep 2 together.
Yes for 1
No for 2
Abstain for 3
Yes for 4 or more, with big enclosure.
I am newbie who read a lot.


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## jptv (Nov 6, 2016)

So far so good! It went well.  I've considered some of your advices. On the first day, the old indian star (female) was so aggressive... just like a territorial dog barking to another dog.  Then after a few days they've adapted and adjusted to each other. Will work on a bigger enclosure in the future.


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## Team Gomberg (Nov 6, 2016)

Your tortoises look so small, how did you accurately identify their gender?

Have you ever considered putting plants in that enclosure? Real or fake if you have to..but making it look more like a "jungle" will help in many ways. Sight barriers for one, microclimates another. 

You seem to be set in your ways, but that isn't at all how I'd house such a beautiful, exotic species.


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## jptv (Nov 6, 2016)

The male is 3+ inches with a long tail and concave belly. The female is almost 5 inches, flat belly, short rounded tail. I have plants before but when I used soil; there are always insects. I will consider the fake plants.  I have a separate enclosure also if needed. I will check their weight every 2 weeks.


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## jptv (Nov 7, 2016)

Enjoying their hibiscus and corchorus dinner!  Happy pair!


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