# Breeding Clutchmates



## DesertGrandma (Oct 23, 2011)

Hello everyone,

Can you tell me your thoughts on breeding clutchmates.
Thank you.


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## dmarcus (Oct 23, 2011)

I'm not sure I just think that there could be issues genetically with this, maybe shell issues or other deformities... I have no first hand knowledge just a guess on my part...


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## jaizei (Oct 23, 2011)

I think it should be avoided.


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## ascott (Oct 23, 2011)

I don't believe you would want to breed direct brother to sister....as with many other animals you will want to at least skip a couple of generations before you breed back into their same line....


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## GBtortoises (Oct 24, 2011)

If at all possible it should probably be avoided in captive breeding where there is limited genetic diversity. But it probably takes place in the wild frequently.


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## Neltharion (Oct 24, 2011)

In other reptiles that reach maturity quickly (i.e. leopard geckos, bearded dragons), clutchmates are bred together or offspring is bred back to parent. This often occurs because certain traits/mutations are seen in offspring, and the breeder wants to continue breeding out those traits. 

Tail and limb deformities, stunted growth, enlarged heads, are occasionally seen in bearded dragons that are inbred. Do a search on leopard gecko enigma syndrome. That's an example of genetic defects brought about by inbreeding.


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## jackrat (Oct 24, 2011)

I don't do it.


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## Weda737 (Oct 24, 2011)

breeding the child to parent = "line breeding" breeding siblings= just plain wrong. Not that I really agree with either, but that's how morphs are created.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 25, 2011)

It probably wouldn't/ couldn't happen very often. Most times all the babies in a clutch would be the same sex.


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## cdmay (Oct 25, 2011)

GBtortoises said:


> If at all possible it should probably be avoided in captive breeding where there is limited genetic diversity. But it probably takes place in the wild frequently.



I agree. If possible it is best to avoid it when you can. But realistically, I'm sure it occurs in the wild. In all likelihood whenever a species spreads into a new territory or extends their range, a certain amount of inbreeding occurs. Sibling to sibling breeding most likely occurs randomly in a given population as well.
Although Emysemys suggests that neonates from the same clutch are probably the same sex, at an ideal incubation temperature there should be close to a 50/50 sex ratio.


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## EricIvins (Oct 25, 2011)

Neltharion said:


> In other reptiles that reach maturity quickly (i.e. leopard geckos, bearded dragons), clutchmates are bred together or offspring is bred back to parent. This often occurs because certain traits/mutations are seen in offspring, and the breeder wants to continue breeding out those traits.
> 
> Tail and limb deformities, stunted growth, enlarged heads, are occasionally seen in bearded dragons that are inbred. Do a search on leopard gecko enigma syndrome. That's an example of genetic defects brought about by inbreeding.



"Enigma Syndrome' wasn't brought about by Inbreeding.......It's connected to the trait, and really can't be bred out, just like some Ball Python mutations........It has been watered down, but it will always be present in all those animals.......Some show it, some don't, but it isn't black and white like everyone thinks......




emysemys said:


> It probably wouldn't/ couldn't happen very often. Most times all the babies in a clutch would be the same sex.



I highly doubt that would happen in a natural setting........Those nests are never at a constant temperature like an incubator.......


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## Neltharion (Oct 25, 2011)

EricIvins said:


> "Enigma Syndrome' wasn't brought about by Inbreeding.......It's connected to the trait, and really can't be bred out, just like some Ball Python mutations........It has been watered down, but it will always be present in all those animals.......Some show it, some don't, but it isn't black and white like everyone thinks......



I should clarify. I thought this was clear. Enigma Syndrome wasn't 'created' by inbreeding in itself. It was a random mutation tied to the Enigma trait (which like I said, This often occurs because certain traits/mutations are seen in offspring, and the breeder wants to continue breeding out those traits). But in attempting to stabilize the Enigma morph, and breeding Enigmas back to related animals (in some cases parent or sibling animals), the trait continued to exist. 

Had the first gecko exhibiting the Enigma trait, been bred to different, unrelated geckos or not been bred at all, the syndrome of head ticking, circling behavior, head cocked to one side, and the spasms wouldn't have persisted. In some of the most extreme cases that I have seen, they've often been the result of line breeding or breeding siblings.

Every Enigma that I have seen has exhibited the syndrome to some degree going from cases where some of them have to be fed crickets with forceps in the extreme cases to the ones that show very infrequent spasms and occasional head cocking to the side, but the head ticking and circling don't seem to appear.


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## ascott (Oct 25, 2011)

There will always be prominent features in both the line of the male and of the female that are desirable to a breeder...there are always temperments in both the line of the male and the line of the female....when breeding, your goal should be for both form and function...however, breeders error on human want and have a tendency to be wavered by form and in doing so will breed too close to the same gene pool...when you breed brother to sister you essentially have thrown an evolutionary speed bump into the mix...which is undesirable .....but people do it and usually profit is that motive. No matter how long you breed out a trait it can always be reignited by breeding the same gene poll...therefore it makes no sense to breed "in the family".

And I have to say that if you have a clutch and the overall temps (in ground + ambient temps will absolutely delegate the overall sex hatched out) are high or low, "I" believe that an estimate of 50/50 is a bit high....temperature is much more of a driving factor than some may give credit for....again, my opinions based on my knowledge and tremendous research...as this is one of those things I have given great research on as it totally fascinates me......carry on all...


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## DesertGrandma (Oct 26, 2011)

Thank you all for your comments. It is fascinating to me too.


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