# Sad for a young sulcata tortoise



## lovelyrosepetal (Oct 29, 2012)

While I was at the pet store today, I saw a really little sulcata tortoise. The pet store seemed okay, it is the first time I have ever visited this one. I was looking for a reptile thermostat. They did not have one, surprise, surprise. They have hardly anything here. This is one of the smallest areas I have ever lived in, things wise. Surprisingly, they have a lot of Sonics. Anyway, the sulcata looked to be really young and was already pyramided. They had it on aspen shavings, under hot lights. They did have a water dish, but it was so high, that I don't think the tortoise could get to the water. It also had an okay food dish and a log to hide under, but I felt so bad for it. I wished I could take it home and help it. I curbed that impulse but I am still thinking about the poor little sulcata with pyramiding. I tried to tell the girl a better way to care for it, but it was like talking to a brick wall. So sad.


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## Tom (Oct 29, 2012)

Your feelings are understandable. This place sounds better than most of the ones we hear about. The things you have recently learned about pyramiding and preventing it, are not things that have made it to most of the "mainstream" pet stores and reptile shops yet. I think we are all looking forward to the day when more people "get it".


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## wellington (Oct 29, 2012)

At least you did try to educate them and help the poor thing. Unfortunately, a lot of pet stores only care about making money. I really wish they would make it against the law to sell pets out of pet stores. Maybe you could print out one of Toms threads on sulcata care and bring it in to them. Then also tell them the water dish does no good if the little guy can get to the water. So sad.


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## bobbymoore (Oct 29, 2012)

Well maybe some should write a massive list on how to take care of ALL tortoises correctly post it here and everyone who uses TFO can coppy and paste it and send it to all your local stores and keep sending it every two weeks it might not work but at
least you tried


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## lovelyrosepetal (Oct 29, 2012)

That is a great idea, Barb. I will do that and give it to them when I drive that way on Wednesday. I don't know if they will use it, but it will be up to them. I might see what else I can do to let them know that Tom's care works. 

I hope you're right, Tom, and that one day the norm will be when everyone "gets it" and the old way will be strange or better yet, a thing of the past.


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## sibi (Oct 29, 2012)

You know, I'm going to check out all the pet stores in my area and print out Tom's care sheets for them. They may read it and actually do something about it. At least it's a try, and if everyone can do this for their area, we may be doing something about it!


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## Tom (Oct 29, 2012)

Most people are resistant to the idea the first time they hear it. Why wouldn't they be? If you pick up any sulcata book or ask most vets, they will tell you the whole desert routine thing. Why would they listen to any old crackpot off the street (referring to myself here) over the word of someone who wrote a book on the subject?

It is my belief though that the first few times they hear it, it "plants a seed" in their mind. If another dozen or two people come in and say the same thing, it will start to sink in. If people come in and tell them that they will not buy from someone who doesn't house them well enough or keep the babies hydrated (yes, I know this store had a water bowl in with the baby, speaking in general terms here), they will either listen and make adjustments or lose sales. When you walk up to that counter you don't know if you are person number one or person number twenty one talking about humid hides and hydration. If everyone makes the effort, it will happen sooner. I go in expecting them to ignore me and act like I'm an idiot. That's okay. I do it anyway. Sometimes I go back months later and changes for the better have been made. I might have been the first person to bring it up, but sometimes they have heard it many more times since the time I first introduced the concept.

You may get nowhere, but its worth the effort anyway.


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## Laura (Oct 29, 2012)

print out care sheets and mail them to the manager...


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## Arizona Sulcata (Oct 30, 2012)

I find it funny that I applied for jobs and stores like petco and petsmart religiously for years and nothing came out of it. Yet everytime I go into their stores their employees and managers ask me to help them identify not only the sex of their tortoises but the species... This is a crazy world we live in. Haha


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## EKLC (Nov 8, 2012)

Most people will never abandon their methods just on the principle of "I've always done it this way"

I was at a zoo last week and the pancake tortoises were kept on walnut shell. Other tortoises were kept on coir, but for some reason the cakes were kept on walnut. I had someone radio the head herp keeper for that exhibit, and she pretty much had no answer for me, other than "he's been on it for 5 years." I urged her to reconsider, and at the very least change it at the first sign of problems. But that's the thing about people, most need to experience disaster first hand before doing anything to prevent it.


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## lovelyrosepetal (Nov 21, 2012)

I actually wanted to let you all know that the same tortoise has not been sold and another one has been added. It is even smaller than the first and is a little bigger than a half dollar. Is that normal for a sulcata hatchling? It already has pyramiding and was all dry and sad looking, IMO. I wished there was something that I could do. They want $160, it was too much for me but I hope someone gets them who will take good care of them.


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## mattgrizzlybear (Nov 21, 2012)

It doesnt sound too bad. I have heard worse.


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## evlinLoutries (Nov 21, 2012)

Its why ppl always thought that pet shop thinking about money only!


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## theEastCoastTurtle (Nov 21, 2012)

The pet shop I bought my tortoise from took verry good care of them. Only 0.01% of petstores actualy care about there animals. When i was in a petsmart the consitions of there russains were awfull. I love the idea of the care sheets. Keep hope change one store at a time.


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## sibi (Nov 21, 2012)

I think that's terrible! If that hatchling already shows signs of pyramiding, than it's probably not a hatchling. Just because he's a little larger than a half dollar doesn't make him a hatchling. I recently received "Baby Runt" as part of a rescue program here at the forum, and he weighed in at 4 oz. and he's 3 YEARS OLD! He has pyramiding, but I've seen torts worse than he is with the exception of his size. An expert on torts suggested that I get him tested for a particular virus that actually stunts the growth of torts. I'll be posting a thread on this virus as soon as I get more information on its affects on torts. So, the tiny sulcata may very well be in danger if he's not properly cared for.


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## lovelyrosepetal (Nov 21, 2012)

It looked like a new hatchling because it still had that egg tooth on its beak. I did not hold it so I did not see its plastron, but how old could it still be with the egg tooth? 
sibi, did you get the test done? I would love to know the results and what that means to how you care for it. Keep us posted.


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## sibi (Nov 22, 2012)

No, I didn't get to the vet yet. I have this nasty cold all week. The vet will have to get a sample of fecal material and/or blood to submit to University of Florida Vet. Hosp. They'll know what to do with it from there. I need to have that done because Baby Runt looks so happy now. He has his own space and is really eating a lot now. He drinks from his little dish, and his eyes are so loving and bright. I was thinking of calling him "Bright Eyes." I even think he gained 1/4 oz. It's hard to tell without a digital weight scale. But he is definitely growing. Thanks for asking about him. So, you think it's a hatchling? How could there be pyramiding at just a couple of weeks old?




lovelyrosepetal said:


> It looked like a new hatchling because it still had that egg tooth on its beak. I did not hold it so I did not see its plastron, but how old could it still be with the egg tooth?
> sibi, did you get the test done? I would love to know the results and what that means to how you care for it. Keep us posted.


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## lovelyrosepetal (Nov 22, 2012)

I would love to hear more about what happens with your baby runt, Bright Eyes. You will have to keep us posted after you get the test done and find out the results. 

It has to be young because of the egg tooth, but how young I don't know because I don't breed and I have never done any research on that topic. 

I don't know how it could already have pyramiding at such a young age. My guess is that it has been kept wrong since it was hatched and it may already be prone to having a little rougher edges so with the dryness and the hot lights, the pyramiding was inevitable. Maybe Tom could chime in as to why such a young hatchling would already have pyramiding. 

I would love to be able to get it and see what happens with correct care, but I already have my money spoken for and can't afford to get it. They want $160, which is pretty reasonable for a pet store after figuring in operating costs and whatnot, and then you have to figure on taxes which is almost 10% here so that raises the cost more. I would love to foster one until they got an owner but they would not go for that because they want to sell it and probably figure it is merely cosmetic and it would probably sell quicker on site. It has been a few weeks since I saw the other one and it is still there so I don't know how many people are actually interested.

You could definitely see where the scutes were raised on its shell and I thought it was such a shame. You could get it and with correct care, it probably would not be noticeable but I think the sooner it gets correct care, the better so that the pyramiding does not have a chance to get worse.


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## Tom (Nov 22, 2012)

They can retain an egg tooth for up to six weeks usually. Pyramiding starts literally the day they hatch if they are kept dry and dehydrated. Remember that pyramiding is a process, not an event.




EKLC said:


> Most people will never abandon their methods just on the principle of "I've always done it this way"



While this IS generally true initially, it has been my experience that over time, with the right influences and a little bit of thought, most people will be willing to reconsider things and change their husbandry. For a retail establishment changes can be brought about much faster with proper pressure applied by their customer base and threats to their bottom line. The hardest people to change are the large scale long time breeders who subscribe to your original quote. Things have been "working" for them for years, they still sell their hatchlings, and they have no reason to change. Sadly, these are the ones who need to change the most in some cases.


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## sibi (Nov 23, 2012)

Thanks Tom...I didn't know that. So, this baby could be six weeks old and have that kind of pyramiding. I'm learning something everyday.


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