# breeding agreements?



## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 4, 2012)

Hi,

I am wondering what kinds of splits or burdens or responsibilities you use in breeding loan agreements.

At first it would seem a 50/50 split would seem good if you introduce one animal to another between two owners. But upon further consideration, the recipient keeper has the burden of caring for the donor's animal, so wouldn't that warrant a higher take of offspring?

And the effort and toil to incubate should be rewarded with a higher than half split. 

I also take into account that without a 50/50 split, most people might not be willing to risk their animal going to another keeper, without regard to the other keeper's husbandry skills or integrity.

So,

1) what have you done, and under what scenario, in terms of did you receive or get the loaner animal?

2) what health care was required in terms of "in case a vet is needed" were discussed before hand? What did happen in case that was not discussed before hand?

3) was some sort of quarantine period employed?

4) what was the split in terms of each participant getting offspring, of $$?

5) what time period was agreed upon at the outset, one season, five years, sorta forever?

I am not asking what species or actual $$ amount, that seems personal. I am interested to know what may be a customary expectation for the responsibilities and burdens for the donor or recipient, and how where the positive results distributed, either $$ or percent offspring.

Will


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## EricIvins (Dec 4, 2012)

Long story short - Breeding loans work for Dogs, not Reptiles.......

Nothing like a good way to ruin a partnership or friendship. Matter of fact, I don't know of one personally that went off without a hitch, and I know alot of people in Herpetoculture..........

I did one once......I loaned off a Male Triporcatus to a friend that had a Female for 13 years......Everything was going fine, they were courting and breeding, untill one day my Male decapitated the Female.......Fun stuff.......


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 4, 2012)

So, shall these single animals forever not reproduce, or only be bought and sold?

What about animals that are not so simple to get, like say rarer tortoises, or those that weight 300 pounds. If the male owner won't sell and the female owner won't sell then what of the breeding potential for either?

Will 





EricIvins said:


> Long story short - Breeding loans work for Dogs, not Reptiles.......
> 
> Nothing like a good way to ruin a partnership or friendship. Matter of fact, I don't know of one personally that went off without a hitch, and I know alot of people in Herpetoculture..........
> 
> I did one once......I loaned off a Male Triporcatus to a friend that had a Female for 13 years......Everything was going fine, they were courting and breeding, untill one day my Male decapitated the Female.......Fun stuff.......






EricIvins said:


> Long story short - Breeding loans work for Dogs, not Reptiles.......
> 
> Nothing like a good way to ruin a partnership or friendship. Matter of fact, I don't know of one personally that went off without a hitch, and I know alot of people in Herpetoculture..........
> 
> I did one once......I loaned off a Male Triporcatus to a friend that had a Female for 13 years......Everything was going fine, they were courting and breeding, untill one day my Male decapitated the Female.......Fun stuff.......



And, so did the female lay eggs and how many hatched, did you get? If you had just bought the female/male it could have still been that one damaged, killed the other.

Will


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## EricIvins (Dec 4, 2012)

Will said:


> So, shall these single animals forever not reproduce, or only be bought and sold?
> 
> What about animals that are not so simple to get, like say rarer tortoises, or those that weight 300 pounds. If the male owner won't sell and the female owner won't sell then what of the breeding potential for either?
> 
> ...



Something I have learned ( especially with Tortoises/Turtles ) is the fact that if you are patient an opportunity will open itself up some how, some way.......

If you have the drive and persistance, you will find what you are looking for......There are some species I've acquired this year that I've been trying to get for YEARS.......The right opportunity at the right time presented itself and I was able to take advantage......You have to work for it - Put the effort into it, for it to work though......

Unless you are trying to acquire all but a handful of species, there are ways to acquire these "rarer" animals legally, and that is all there is to it really......


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## Baoh (Dec 4, 2012)

Great potential for mistakes, accidents, thievery, and upset feelings, so I do not engage in them.

I just combine patience and homework until I acquire what I am looking for.


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## EricIvins (Dec 4, 2012)

Will said:


> So, shall these single animals forever not reproduce, or only be bought and sold?
> 
> What about animals that are not so simple to get, like say rarer tortoises, or those that weight 300 pounds. If the male owner won't sell and the female owner won't sell then what of the breeding potential for either?
> 
> ...





The Male decapitated the Female. She can't lay eggs when that happens. That is the joy of owning Triporcatus - Platysternon are the same way - When they do inflict damage on one another, it is irreversible. It could have happened at any point in time. In this instance, we both understood what could happen and we both walked away from the situation with a shoulder shrug. Other people in the same situation could have escalated the matter into something bigger. This is where the problem lies.......

Realistically, a breeding loan should require a legally binding contract that goes into all the hypotheticals in case a situation arises. Too much work for little return me thinks........


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## tortadise (Dec 4, 2012)

I am going to have to agree with boah, and eric. Patience is of the most important virtue to display when dealing with tortoises/turtles. Greed, and expedited desire can soil the reality in which that to be desired. Each keeper shows different care, views, and beliefs in animals well being. Which can seed a derailed train of achievment or goal


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## Tom (Dec 4, 2012)

I've seen this go both ways. Things can turn really ugly really fast. The only way it works is if one or both parties are relatively laid back about the whole thing and very understanding about any unfortunate circumstances that may occur.


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## Benjamin (Dec 5, 2012)

Will said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am wondering what kinds of splits or burdens or responsibilities you use in breeding loan agreements.
> 
> ...


 In regards to breed loan agreements, if done correctly they can be rewarding for both parties involved. 
All loan agreements between my partner and I are very specific and are written up in a signed legal document. All animals large enough to be implanted with a PIT tag are. All induvidual animals are accounted for. 

1) I agree to provide optimal husbandry in an attemtp to breed said animals. I am responsible for food, vitamins, housing, heat ect.
2) I pay the first $100 of any vet bills. 
3) Any offspring produced are divided 50/50, depending on the partilcular species I get 2nd,4th,6th ect. A few I get 1st,3rd,5th...
Example I have 3.3 adult k.homeana. I own 1.2, 2.1 are on loan to me. I breed my 1.1 pair, I get all offspring. I breed his pair, offspring are split 50/50. His male breeds my female, again split 50/50. Part of my objective is to keep as diverse bloodlines as possible. Pairings are permanent, baring injury or death. 
4)The loan can end at anytime with 30 days notice. If shipping is required the party requesting the transfer is responsible for the costs. 
5)All animals have recevied complete medical exams and are quarentined at least one year prior to their arrival here. Upon arrival I will house them in the same room as the established animals but tend to their needs last. I will wait three months before any introductions ect.
6)I am friends with my partner so honesty and integrity play a huge role in the succes of our partnership. We get together and swap animals one time per year. I have no problem housing his hatchlings until then. If I sell an animal for him I get 10%.

A decade later there have been no major problems. A complete understanding of expectations is the reason.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 10, 2012)

Hey Benjamin,

Thanks for answering my question. 

I understand the 'advice' not to get into a loan. I've been on both sides of them, and I found without regard, trust was always strained, not broken. I also see many many torts languish in isolation, a lone male or female that dies, never being reproductive because the people were waiting for that patience to pay off.

I know of several individuals that are rare both in captivity and in the wild, that are isolated from their reproductive potential. I think it is a greater "not good" than a trust strained relationship over the animals. 

Breeding loans often, for me, turned into a sale as it was a way for the person to assure themself they were getting a viable individual as well. I both bought and sold animals that were on breeding loans. 

So, if you have implemented a loan, not heard about one, and have a first hand experience, I would like to hear about it. Even if it did not result in offspring what was the agreement at the outset?

Will


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## Yvonne G (Dec 11, 2012)

This is the only experience I've had with breeding loans:

I had three large female Phrynops hillari and our zoo had one male. I gave two of the females to the zoo on breeding loan and signed a paper saying they were on breeding loan. I was to receive a copy of the paper at a later date, and I never received a copy. The arrangement was for us to share any offspring 50/50. After a couple years, the original person I had made the agreement with became deathly ill and didn't work at the zoo anymore. When I inquired about the breeding loan and any offspring, I was told that I had donated my two turtles to the zoo and there was no breeding loan.


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## TylerStewart (Dec 11, 2012)

When I bought my big female Burmese star, I was given a _good_ price based on me agreeing to give back her first two babies to the guy I got her from, or if he wasn't ready for them, to "owe" him 2 babies in the future on no specific timeline. He knows there's no guarantee of success, and he knows that tortoises can drop dead for no apparent reason and he was ok with that risk. I have no obligation besides not to sell her (and have passed on many large $$$ offers). I have since bought a male, and hope to have luck in the next few years with them (I just have the pair now). I'm excited as hell to send him the first two babies just because I want him to feel comfortable with the whole deal. I consider him a friend, but he's not in the industry (still has other torts that friends are keeping for him). No contracts, just a verbal agreement.


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## yagyujubei (Dec 11, 2012)

I think that this would make an interesting human interest story for your local paper.


emysemys said:


> This is the only experience I've had with breeding loans:
> 
> I had three large female Phrynops hillari and our zoo had one male. I gave two of the females to the zoo on breeding loan and signed a paper saying they were on breeding loan. I was to receive a copy of the paper at a later date, and I never received a copy. The arrangement was for us to share any offspring 50/50. After a couple years, the original person I had made the agreement with became deathly ill and didn't work at the zoo anymore. When I inquired about the breeding loan and any offspring, I was told that I had donated my two turtles to the zoo and there was no breeding loan.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 11, 2012)

Yeah, but its easy to blame the dead guy. The fellow that I made the agreement with was the head reptile keeper at that time. He got sick and had to quit work before any of the paperwork was processed. I let it go on for too long before I made any inquiries and by that time anyone who had any knowledge of the deal was either dead or retired.


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