# Sperm Retention



## Tom (May 12, 2011)

Nice title, huh?

Okay, some background before the question. I just recently discovered that some friends that I've know for many years have two adult female Gpp. I've only been to their place a few times over the years and the leopards are housed at their friends house who works for them, so I've never seen them, but we've talked about them. Well I just did a job with one of them the other day and I was showing her all my pictures and explaining the humidity for babies thing and what I've learned about it all and she told me she was sure hers were the SA type of leopards. She said they are 20 years old and they know the source very well. Then she told me they were both around 18-20" (I have not confirmed this yet). Anyhow, these guys are just casual tortoise owners. They aren't "into it" like some of us. Along the way someone gave them another "Leopard" and they just put it in the pen with their other two. Well they've been producing babies for years now and I'm pretty sure the male is a babcocki... (Tom smacks his own forehead, Doh!) They said the male is much smaller than the females and much shier too. These guys have a bunch of big sulcatas too and they describe the personalities of the females as very sulcata-like. Her words, not mine. SOOOOOOOO...

How long can a female retain sperm from a prior breeding?

I intend to try like heck to buy these females from them (I find that large wads of small bills works well), and I'm wondering how long it will take to get the babcocki out of them. I don't know if they'll even consider parting with them, but boy am I gonna try. I know of one other adult female pp and and I know someone with a proven adult male whose willing to do a local breeding loan. I might be in the Gpp business sooner than I ever thought!!!


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## GeoTerraTestudo (May 13, 2011)

A lot of turtle and tortoise species can store sperm for up to 3 years. I would think it would be the same for leopard tortoises.


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## ALDABRAMAN (May 13, 2011)

I have heard up to four years, never proved it or had any experience with it. I also heard that if the tortoise's core temperature gets below a certain temperature all sperm is dead. I also would like to know from a good reliable source that answer as well.


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## Angi (May 13, 2011)

I don't have an answer, but I have another question. If they can retain sperm could they have a mixed clutch if they were bred with a different tortoise? Does the old and new sperm get all mixed up?


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## Angi (May 13, 2011)

I don't have an answer, but I have another question. If they can retain sperm could they have a mixed clutch if they were bred with a different tortoise? Does the old and new sperm get all mixed up?


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## Tom (May 13, 2011)

Angi, this does seem likely to me, but I don't know the answer for sure either. I know dogs can throw pups from multiple sires all in the same litter.


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## ALDABRAMAN (May 13, 2011)

Angi said:


> I don't have an answer, but I have another question. If they can retain sperm could they have a mixed clutch if they were bred with a different tortoise? Does the old and new sperm get all mixed up?



I think they can, not scientifically saying, I am allmost sure some of our females have mixed male sperm per clutch. That is a good question, maybe some of our higher educated/academic folks have a concrete answer.


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## chairman (May 13, 2011)

I have no idea if it would work, but what about having a vet put some spermicide in the tortoise? Or perhaps just have them use saline to attempt to flush any retained sperm out?


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## onarock (May 13, 2011)

I started a thread on that a while ago Angie. What I understand is its not so much sperm retention as its hundreds or even thousands of egg follicle's. The sperm fertilizes the follicle and its the fertilized follicle that is stored. When conditions are right in the female, she can start to develop eggs, a kind of fertile egg factory.

I think females that are bred by multiple males can lay clutches representative of all the males. A bunch of half related.

Like I stated its just my understanding of what someone told me. Wheres Danny or HLogic on this one?


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## Angi (May 13, 2011)

This is a very interesting thread. Thank God humans don't have this problem. Not that I would be having kids from different dads or anything LOL!, but it would really suck to have a kid a couple years after my hubby got fixed. I think he would shot me HaaHa. He was SOOOO done after our 12 year old was born. Great kid, but he didn't sleep at night for the first 3 years. Sorry to get off topic. I started off on topic. I really do find this fasinating.


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## Angi (May 13, 2011)

This is a very interesting thread. Thank God humans don't have this problem. Not that I would be having kids from different dads or anything LOL!, but it would really suck to have a kid a couple years after my hubby got fixed. I think he would shot me HaaHa. He was SOOOO done after our 12 year old was born. Great kid, but he didn't sleep at night for the first 3 years. Sorry to get off topic. I started off on topic. I really do find this fasinating.


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## Laura (May 13, 2011)

I was going to say, Due to the Topic.. 'Sounds like a personal Problem'
But this is kinda interesting... 
and GOOD LUCK!! maybe they will consider a breeding loan ? or seperate the male and add yours?


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## Yvonne G (May 13, 2011)

onarock said:


> I started a thread on that a while ago Angie. What I understand is its not so much sperm retention as its hundreds or even thousands of egg follicle's. The sperm fertilizes the follicle and its the fertilized follicle that is stored. When conditions are right in the female, she can start to develop eggs, a kind of fertile egg factory.
> 
> I think females that are bred by multiple males can lay clutches representative of all the males. A bunch of half related.
> 
> Like I stated its just my understanding of what someone told me. Wheres Danny or HLogic on this one?



This makes the most sense to me (fertilized follicles, not sperm retention). Everything I can find to read about the subject refers to "sperm retention," but I'm inclined to believe that the follicles are fertilized and held in suspended animation until conditions are correct.

I saw an answer to this question on Shelled Warriors, and Danny didn't know much more than all of us here on the subject.


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## Laura (May 13, 2011)

in Seal, they have Delayed Inplantation.. So the egg gets fertilized, it just doesnt start to develope.. sounds like the same thing and makes most sense..


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## Yvonne G (May 13, 2011)

Laura said:


> in Seals, they have Delayed Inplantation.. So the egg gets fertilized, it just doesnt start to develope.. sounds like the same thing and makes most sense..



Likewise kangaroos. They can have a baby in the pouch, and a fertilized follicle waiting for that baby to leave.


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## Tom (May 13, 2011)

Good stuff. I wish that one of us actually KNEW the answer. A well known tortoise vet told a friend of mine the three year thing too. Seems to be sort of a consensus. This complicates things greatly if one is inclined to breed a pure strain. So it seems like for AT LEAST three years these females would be throwing hybrids. What a bummer.

Tell everyone: DON'T MIX SPECIES OR SUB-SPECIES!!!


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## JeffG (May 13, 2011)

Tom said:


> Good stuff. I wish that one of us actually KNEW the answer. A well known tortoise vet told a friend of mine the three year thing too. Seems to be sort of a consensus. This complicates things greatly if one is inclined to breed a pure strain. So it seems like for AT LEAST three years these females would be throwing hybrids. What a bummer.
> 
> Tell everyone: DON'T MIX SPECIES OR SUB-SPECIES!!!



I think IF she was using retained sperm , and you were breeding her with a pure Gpp, that she would actually be dropping mixed clutches that contained hybrids AND pure Gpp's. Couldn't you tell visually which were which when they hatched? I'm sorry if that is a stupid question. I couldn't tell, but some of you guys seem to be really good at identifying hatchlings.


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## Laura (May 13, 2011)

and if not Visually.. then what about DNA testing??? 
Blood tests or cheek swabs? do they work for torts? 
If she is laying... would she be retaining? what is her history?


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## ALDABRAMAN (May 13, 2011)

JeffG said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > Good stuff. I wish that one of us actually KNEW the answer. A well known tortoise vet told a friend of mine the three year thing too. Seems to be sort of a consensus. This complicates things greatly if one is inclined to breed a pure strain. So it seems like for AT LEAST three years these females would be throwing hybrids. What a bummer.
> ...



That is a great question, I sure could not tell, but some of our members that are specialized should be able to tell easy.


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## onarock (May 13, 2011)

Best question yet. The problem is establishing up to date gen-bank data. There are recent study's that say a lot of the gen-bank data is rubbish. Also determining clades is difficult enough. I guess what I am saying is, even if you could do blood tests, what do you compare it to? I would go so far as to say even those who claim to have 100% pure gpp might not want those tests done, because they cant be sure themselves. Leopard tortoises = Evolution by isolation, their just big tent tortoises.



Laura said:


> and if not Visually.. then what about DNA testing???
> Blood tests or cheek swabs? do they work for torts?
> If she is laying... would she be retaining? what is her history?





I read somewhere that a tortoise layed fertile eggs for 6 years after the male was removed. I'll look for it and post back if I can find it.



Tom said:


> Good stuff. I wish that one of us actually KNEW the answer. A well known tortoise vet told a friend of mine the three year thing too. Seems to be sort of a consensus. This complicates things greatly if one is inclined to breed a pure strain. So it seems like for AT LEAST three years these females would be throwing hybrids. What a bummer.
> 
> Tell everyone: DON'T MIX SPECIES OR SUB-SPECIES!!!


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## Madkins007 (May 13, 2011)

Try this article, it is great! It is also relatively easy to read and understand!

The gist is...
- turtles store sperm: "Sperm storage tubules in turtles are located in the posterior portion of the albumin-secreting region of the oviduct, a position different from that of other vertebrates"

- lots of papas: "To date, only a handful of surveys have examined genetic paternity in turtle broods from nature, but virtually every study has documented multiple paternity, typically in a high percentage of clutches" and "sperm from multiple males are often present in a female's reproductive tract simultaneously, and that these stored sperm can result in multiple sires within a clutch."

- it lasts at least three years: " painted turtles on the Mississippi River, more than 20% of the 32 females assayed were documented to have used only one male's sperm each for at least two and in one case three consecutive years. "

- it does not seem to degrade much: "This sperm storage came at no apparent fitness cost to the females, because clutches fertilized by stored sperm both within and across years had the same hatching success rate as clutches fathered by newly acquired sperm "

This is a great article that covers a lot of the issues involved- why, benefits, etc. 

Hope this helps!


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## Yvonne G (May 13, 2011)

Is this article in your library? You didn't give us the link.




Madkins007 said:


> Try this article, it is great! It is also relatively easy to read and understand!
> 
> The gist is...
> - turtles store sperm: "Sperm storage tubules in turtles are located in the posterior portion of the albumin-secreting region of the oviduct, a position different from that of other vertebrates"
> ...


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## onarock (May 13, 2011)

Well there it is...


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## dmarcus (May 13, 2011)

This is a very interesting threads...Females torts know how to keep the species going...


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## JeffG (May 13, 2011)

onarock said:


> I guess what I am saying is, even if you could do blood tests, what do you compare it to?



Wouldn't you test both the known Gpp male that you are breeding to her and the babies to determine if that male was the father? You wouldn't actually be trying to prove that the babies were Gpp, you would just be trying to prove that the "known" Gpp male was truly the father of the baby in question. You are assuming by all the evidence available that the mother and the current male are both Gpp.


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## onarock (May 13, 2011)

Was Laura talking about a paternity test? My bad...


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## JeffG (May 13, 2011)

onarock said:


> Was Laura talking about a paternity test? My bad...



I'm not sure if that's what she was talking about or not, but I was thinking that would be the thing that you could positively test for.


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## Madkins007 (May 14, 2011)

Whoops- meant to paste the link to the article I found and missed it. Here it is- 

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/92/2/206.short

From there, you can either see the whole thing in HTML or a PDF you can save and keep.


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## armandoarturo (May 15, 2011)

This happend to me a while ago...
I had my first DT mature female, and a friend of mine gave me his big male...
So they did their thing, and the female laid a clutch of 9 eggs.
that same year, my friend asked me to give back his male tortoise, so I did.
The next year the female didnt produce any eggs.
Then, the year after that one, I got this little male from another friend, and I placed them together just one time... I wasnt exactly sure If it really was a male because it didnt show 100%.
When I placed them together the male started to bite and do all his stuff... So I really knew he was male for sure 
I was there, and I could see that the male's penis didnt get into the female, he wasnt big enough for her, I guess....  poor guy...
And well... I took the little guy to another enclosure...
A month after that, the female was digging a burrow and laying a clutch of eggs. I was like whaaat the?
3 out of 8 eggs where fertile, So... what I was guessing is that they were actually from the past male... And Im 100% sure the new male didnt get into her.
So that makes it 2-3 years after the first matting... but low fertility rate.
I guess the female hormons started to work with the matting or something like that maybe???


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## onarock (May 15, 2011)

Might not have been a male at all. Females will mount other females. Females will lay eggs, fertile or not, if they are getting "attention" from males or other females that mount them. 



armandoarturo said:


> This happend to me a while ago...
> I had my first DT mature female, and a friend of mine gave me his big male...
> So they did their thing, and the female laid a clutch of 9 eggs.
> that same year, my friend asked me to give back his male tortoise, so I did.
> ...


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## Tom (May 15, 2011)

armandoarturo said:


> This happend to me a while ago...
> I had my first DT mature female, and a friend of mine gave me his big male...
> So they did their thing, and the female laid a clutch of 9 eggs.
> that same year, my friend asked me to give back his male tortoise, so I did.
> ...



Seems right in line with the consensus. Thanks for sharing your story.


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## armandoarturo (May 15, 2011)

Im sure it was a male...
I havent seen a female with a little penis moving outside the cloaca 
I really meant it when I said I was watching them 



onarock said:


> Might not have been a male at all. Females will mount other females. Females will lay eggs, fertile or not, if they are getting "attention" from males or other females that mount them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## onarock (May 15, 2011)

Females can show their clitoris just like males. They can be long, but not as long as a male penis. 

I believe it when you say you were watching. They can be tricky little buggers. 

Just my opinion based on observations.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (May 26, 2011)

According to a study by Johnston et al. (2006), Russian tortoises can store sperm, and hatchlings within a single clutch can come from different fathers about 1/4 of the time. Please see below.


Johnston, E. E., M.S. Rand, and S.G. Zweifel. 2006. Detection of multiple paternity and sperm storage in a captive colony of the central Asian tortoise, _Testudo horsfieldii_. _Canadian Journal of Zoology_ *84*(4): 520-527.

*Abstract:*
Reproductive success is a critical measure of an organism's fitness. Determining reproductive success in vertebrates is confounded by the concealed mechanism and timing of fertilization (e.g., sperm competition and storage). To assess the relationship between observed mating behavior and reproductive success in the central Asian tortoise, Testudo horsfieldii Gray, 1844, we determined individual genotypes from a captive colony of adults and their offspring. We constructed a size-selected genomic library from T. horsfieldii and screened for polymorphic microsatellite markers. The screen resulted in identification of two novel microsatellite regions. Cross-species amplification of microsatellite markers using primers developed for the bog turtle, Glyptemys muhlenbergii (Schoepff, 1801), resulted in isolation of three additional polymorphic microsatellites for T. horsfieldii. The five loci, which have between 5 and 17 alleles and observed heterozygosities between 0.44 and 0.90, were used to determine the frequency of multiple paternity in the captive colony. *We found evidence for multiple paternity in 27% of the clutches examined, as well as evidence for overwinter sperm storage and variance in adult male reproductive success. These data indicate that ample opportunity exists for sperm competition and female mate choice in T. horsfieldii.*


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