# Debatable website???? Help!!



## Sammy5.2013 (Jul 21, 2013)

Www.tortugavilla.com

The above website says almost exactly opposite of what I have read on this forum. It is crazy. Has anyone been to this site? They say things like no humidity and no water in enclosure and that they can eat beans etc. any input?


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## Jacqui (Jul 21, 2013)

I don't think it would be appropriate to debate the quality of another forum or website. I think it is enough to say different folks do things different ways and it does work for them too. There is no "one way fits all" in raising and keeping tortoises.


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## mike taylor (Jul 21, 2013)

Some people don't like change so they stick to the old ways of doing things. Did you see pictures of there tortoises? Where they pyramiding? If so look a Toms threads on the humid way and no more pyramiding . So to each it's own . I see pictures to prove what they preach I will follow all the pictures I've seen raising the dry way end in a pyramided tortoises.
I'm not going to bad mouth them but you have to go with whatever works .
Sent from my C771 using TortForum mobile app


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## Sammy5.2013 (Jul 21, 2013)

Maybe I put this under wrong heading. I am not asking anyone to bad mouth or criticize this sight I am just new to this and was curious if anyone had any input. Nothing negative just info.


Also it is tortugavilla.com/care sheets.html


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## wellington (Jul 21, 2013)

I have looked at most other sites when I first got my leopard. Also listened to the breeder. I now have a pyramided leopard. Thankfully, I found this forum and Tom and got my tort growing smooth. He will be pyramided, but with Toms help, he won't be as bad as he would have been if I would have listened to those other places. You decide how you want your tort to look, then pick the place you want to listen too. If you try to listen to more then one,you will go nuts.


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## Millerlite (Jul 21, 2013)

Looks like their adults have smooth and pyramiding shells, some big guys and girls they have


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## wellington (Jul 21, 2013)

The large ones were most likely wild caught, so probably had the high humidity before they were ever found. They younger ones, in their care from the beginning not so smooth.


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## sibi (Jul 21, 2013)

The info you're seeking has been communicated here. It's true that each site have their own cares sheets, and here we have what we know works. Having said that, I would add that whenever you read info that doesn't sound reasonable, then just use common sense. For example, if you read that sulcatas don't need water, common sense will tell you that it can't be reliable because every living thing, regardless of where they are from, needs water. I recommend that you stick with this forum because many torts have been saved by the info, advise, and help of members here.


Sammy5.2013 said:


> Maybe I put this under wrong heading. I am not asking anyone to bad mouth or criticize this sight I am just new to this and was curious if anyone had any input. Nothing negative just info.
> 
> 
> Also it is tortugavilla.com/care sheets.html


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## Millerlite (Jul 21, 2013)

wellington said:


> The large ones were most likely wild caught, so probably had the high humidity before they were ever found. They younger ones, in their care from the beginning not so smooth.



What if they were rescues and they didn't raise them from hathlings? And why are they most likely wc? Cuz of the smooth shells? Or cuz there is no way they can have smooth shells unless in a closed high humidity environment? I would bet he rescued or bought them as sub adults , the ivories are very nice looking tho


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## Jacqui (Jul 21, 2013)

Millerlite said:


> wellington said:
> 
> 
> > The large ones were most likely wild caught, so probably had the high humidity before they were ever found. They younger ones, in their care from the beginning not so smooth.
> ...



See this is one reason I think this is so wrong to be doing. Everybody is making snap judgement and guesses without knowing the facts. These folks are not here to defend themselves. Thank you for being open enough to think there may be some unknown facts here.


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## Baoh (Jul 21, 2013)

I have one of his (Paul's) animals, although I did not buy it from him directly. While he is not an advocate of in-cage water sources or humidity boosting, he is a proponent of frequent soaks for hydration. A different set of practices meant to improve hydration status. He does not want people to have their animals tolerate temps below 70s. I let mine stay out in the 30s and then bring them in when there is no longer enough of a rise in temperature for them to become pacing-level active at peak daily heat. I do not care that he does things his way and he does not care that I do things my way. Only the result matters.


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## Tom (Jul 21, 2013)

I have seen many of the animals he has raised from hatchlings and they are horribly pyramided and small for their age. This is what the dry method produces. I recognize it so well because I did it myself, in basically the same climate as this guy for many years.

This is not a snap judgement or guess. I have seen animals sold by him in person with my own eyes.

To answer your question Sammy, I don't advocate those methods because I don't like the results they produce here. I do advocate my methods because I do like the results they produce. And tortoises can eat beans. Beans are fine as a small part of a varied diet.


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## wellington (Jul 22, 2013)

I emailed this site. Suggested for him to check out our forum and Toms threads. I explained the wrong/bad info he had, just in a small portion of what I read. I gave some of the info right off the bat that's inToms threads, humidity, soaking, water available, etc. he replied and said: "he didn't know why i was emailing him. He does do all I had mentioned". When I emailed back, I told him that the info I got was from his website. I also copied and pasted some of his info. His reply, was they never got around to changing it. I then said it would be nice if they did or closed it down. That for every one person we get on here confused because of all the conflicting info out there, there is probably dozens that just follows the old bad info. Hopefully, they will do something about it and if they aren't really raising theirs the right way, they will start.


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## Tom (Jul 22, 2013)

I have had people tell me that they have been trying to teach this guy and show him results form more "wet" methods. Maybe its working.


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## Baoh (Jul 22, 2013)

Here is one raised to adulthood by Paul. Mild-to-moderate with a nod towards mild pyramiding. Not smooth, but not "horribly pyramided", either. ~24" scl and it is not especially young. An acquaintance owns it.


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## wellington (Jul 22, 2013)

From that angle it's not bad. However, wouldn't it be nice if some day they were all smooth! Not slightly, not horribly, but smooth. It would at least be nice if only the correct way(s) to raise a smooth tortoise was the only info available. Then if people want to be irresponsible and lazy in raising their tort, that would be on them. Not on all the bad info being available.


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## Baoh (Jul 22, 2013)

wellington said:


> From that angle it's not bad. However, wouldn't it be nice if some day they were all smooth! Not slightly, not horribly, but smooth. It would at least be nice if only the correct way(s) to raise a smooth tortoise was the only info available. Then if people want to be irresponsible and lazy in raising their tort, that would be on them. Not on all the bad info being available.



From which angle will it be bad? 

No, I do not believe in censorship. I believe in informed decision making and freedom of intellectual choice.


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## wellington (Jul 22, 2013)

Well, first, from that angle, the pyramiding never looks as bad as it is. Second, I also believe in choices. That's why I said way(s). Do I want to be taught a bad way. Not when it comes to an animals health and well being. When I buy a Shar-Pei dog or a Bull Terrier dog, that's what I want it too look like. I also want the proper care information for the particular breed, species I am buying. Maybe it's been too long ago for you to remember, or maybe you don't care, but when I was a newbie just under two years ago, I remember very clearly the feeling of finding all the confusing info while looking for all the right ways to raise my leopard. Thought the breeder was the person to lead me in the right direction. I was very disappointed, mad and sad to find out that I was doing it wrong. Now I have a pyramided leopard. Luckily with Toms help, is dedication and experiments, my leopards isn't as bad as he could have been. Yes, I want choices too, good choices.


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## Baoh (Jul 22, 2013)

Which angle would you like? 

How does Jessica feel about that (just curious)?


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## wellington (Jul 22, 2013)

You don't have to post another angle. I'm just saying, at that angle they don't look as pyramided as in other angles. I'll take your word for it. I have noticed that on my own tort, different angles he looks less pyramided. Straight down looking the least pyramided. Have noticed it on other photos too. As for Jessica, don't care. For all the credentials and knowledge she said she had, she should have known better. She has nice torts, she does rescuing and is a nice person. Some of her info was good, I confirmed with Tom, some not so good. My leopard has never had a problem, thank you Tom. Her husbandry needs some work.


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## Baoh (Jul 23, 2013)

But that angle is so convenient in that "the pyramiding never looks as bad as it is" after his animals are said to be "horribly pyramided", correct? If that oblique angle is an angle that downplays it while being so different from a direct overhead view, then I can request another that may be more to your liking and we can see how it looks. It had been kept in accordance with the breeder's style of keeping for quite some time. Despite the descriptions I have seen stated in so matter-of-fact a manner in this thread, it has seemed like the extremity has been exaggerated to some degree in comparison to what the photo appears to portray.

I would care. Plenty of leopards never have problems.


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