# ANYONE HAVE TO USE OXYTOCIN ON TORTOISE



## wellington (Aug 2, 2017)

If so, do you remember all they did and did it work? 
Did they just give the shot or did they have to do more, like give fluids, etc?
How many shots did it take?
Any insight would help. I believe my one female needs to get some help on getting the six eggs she has out. However, the vet said she has never had good luck with oxytocin and said it required a lot more then just giving the injection. 
The clinic sees reptiles and small animals probably more then cats and dogs. They seem to have knowledge of tortoises, they knew the rights and wrongs. The only thing I didn't like, it seems they always only have urgent care appointments, which is 20 dollars more then a regular visit, so not bad.
Thanks for any help on this. I don't need help on what I can do at home. I got all that covered.


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## zovick (Aug 2, 2017)

All you need to do is give the tortoise the oxytocin injection. Normally it will cause the eggs to be laid in 1-3 hours. I usually give it in the area slightly above the front leg and on the inner side between the leg and the neck. I give 5-6 cc to a 20-23 lb female Radiated Tortoise. You can use about 1-3 cc. for a smaller size tortoise based on its comparative size. These doses might be higher than what those vets generally use which might explain why they have not had such good luck with using the drug.

That being said, I have found that there are some species on which it doesn't seem to work. Pyxis planicauda is one, and certain Burmese Star females I have treated have seemed either resistant to it or it has taken up to 8 hours and more to work.

What species of tortoise do you wish to treat?


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## wellington (Aug 2, 2017)

zovick said:


> All you need to do is give the tortoise the oxytocin injection. Normally it will cause the eggs to be laid in 1-3 hours. I usually give it in the area slightly above the front leg and on the inner side between the leg and the neck. I give 5-6 cc to a 20-23 lb female Radiated Tortoise. You can use about 1-3 cc. for a smaller size tortoise based on its comparative size. These doses might be higher than what those vets generally use which might explain why they have not had such good luck with using the drug.
> 
> That being said, I have found that there are some species on which it doesn't seem to work. Pyxis planicauda is one, and certain Burmese Star females I have treated have seemed either resistant to it or it has taken up to 8 hours and more to work.
> 
> What species of tortoise do you wish to treat?


This would be on a leopard. Today she weighed in over 9 pounds and that's I'm sure down some seeing she hasn't been eating for about a week and then not back to her normal eating yet with these new eggs. 
I take it any online vet supplies needs a prescription for oxy, right? Don't know if they will give it too her without all the added money maker that's not needed.
That's one reason I started this thread. Going in with the great knowledge of the forum members to back me up. 
Any knowledge of oxy on a leopard?
Thanks again.


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## zovick (Aug 3, 2017)

wellington said:


> This would be on a leopard. Today she weighed in over 9 pounds and that's I'm sure down some seeing she hasn't been eating for about a week and then not back to her normal eating yet with these new eggs.
> I take it any online vet supplies needs a prescription for oxy, right? Don't know if they will give it too her without all the added money maker that's not needed.
> That's one reason I started this thread. Going in with the great knowledge of the forum members to back me up.
> Any knowledge of oxy on a leopard?
> Thanks again.



I assume that you have had your tortoise radiographed since you know that she has eggs and the number of them. Were they quite well calcified in the radiograph? Has she been digging? Are you sure she is ready to lay them? If not, and you give her oxytocin, you may get a bunch of rubbery shelled eggs which will not hatch.

I have used oxytocin successfully on numerous Indian and Sri Lankan Stars over the years and they are one of the closest relatives to Leopard Tortoises (or at least that is what used to be believed). If it were me, I would give your Leopard about 4-5 cc. of Oxytocin and expect it to work within 1.5 hours or thereabouts.

You will more than likely need to get a prescription to buy it yourself if that is even possible. Some drugs can be sold ONLY to licensed veterinarians. If you are able buy it yourself, you will most likely have to buy a 100 cc bottle which is a lot more than you need (but it isn't that costly). If have a good relationship with any veterinarian, you may be able to get them to simply give you one or two syringes full of it to make up the 4-5 cc dose you need. Or take the tortoise with you to the vet and let them give the injection, then take the tortoise home with you to wait for the eggs.


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## Jodie (Aug 3, 2017)

I have not used it. Both of my vets have not wanted to unless really necessary. Biggest reason I was given is that if there is blockage for some reason, they can injure themselves trying to lay. How did the xray look? Last year when I brought Nia inside winter, she held her last clutch of eggs for a little over a month before dropping them. Is there a reason she may be not laying? Has she been digging, and trying to lay?


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## wellington (Aug 3, 2017)

No, she has not been digging. The eggs looked good to me. However, I'm not sure if she is ready to lay them as they are high up going side to side. Not dropped into position like a human baby would do. I have no idea how long they will hold them before ready to lay them or if they do drop into position. I would think so though.
The worry is because she won't use her back legs to walk. She can move them, will use her toes, will bring them in and out, but will not use them to walk. Also because of the eggs she drop about 2 weeks ago now I think it's been, maybe a week ago. Lots of other human medical stuff going on here that I can't remember crap. LOL
Is my thinking correct, that because they are high, going side to side, and have not dropped down, that she's just not ready?


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## wellington (Aug 3, 2017)

Jodie said:


> I have not used it. Both of my vets have not wanted to unless really necessary. Biggest reason I was given is that if there is blockage for some reason, they can injure themselves trying to lay. How did the xray look? Last year when I brought Nia inside winter, she held her last clutch of eggs for a little over a month before dropping them. Is there a reason she may be not laying? Has she been digging, and trying to lay?


The vet did say something about if there was a blockage. Nothing else on the X-ray looked out of sorts.


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## wellington (Aug 3, 2017)

zovick said:


> I assume that you have had your tortoise radiographed since you know that she has eggs and the number of them. Were they quite well calcified in the radiograph? Has she been digging? Are you sure she is ready to lay them? If not, and you give her oxytocin, you may get a bunch of rubbery shelled eggs which will not hatch.
> 
> I have used oxytocin successfully on numerous Indian and Sri Lankan Stars over the years and they are one of the closest relatives to Leopard Tortoises (or at least that is what used to be believed). If it were me, I would give your Leopard about 4-5 cc. of Oxytocin and expect it to work within 1.5 hours or thereabouts.
> 
> You will more than likely need to get a prescription to buy it yourself if that is even possible. Some drugs can be sold ONLY to licensed veterinarians. If you are able buy it yourself, you will most likely have to buy a 100 cc bottle which is a lot more than you need (but it isn't that costly). If have a good relationship with any veterinarian, you may be able to get them to simply give you one or two syringes full of it to make up the 4-5 cc dose you need. Or take the tortoise with you to the vet and let them give the injection, then take the tortoise home with you to wait for the eggs.


See my post below please


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## Jodie (Aug 3, 2017)

Sorry she is having these kinds of issues. I certainly understand the stress they cause. I am traumatized and paranoid about it. Is there an actual good tortoise vet near you? I don't know if they drop or not before laying. I don't really think so. I would want an experienced vet to give the oxy. One that can monitor and perform surgery if has to. The back legs thing certainly seems more alarming. None of mine have had this issue. Best wishes.


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## zovick (Aug 3, 2017)

wellington said:


> No, she has not been digging. The eggs looked good to me. However, I'm not sure if she is ready to lay them as they are high up going side to side. Not dropped into position like a human baby would do. I have no idea how long they will hold them before ready to lay them or if they do drop into position. I would think so though.
> The worry is because she won't use her back legs to walk.  She can move them, will use her toes, will bring them in and out, but will not use them to walk. Also because of the eggs she drop about 2 weeks ago now I think it's been, maybe a week ago. Lots of other human medical stuff going on here that I can't remember crap. LOL
> Is my thinking correct, that because they are high, going side to side, and have not dropped down, that she's just not ready?



She laid eggs two weeks ago? How many? It is possible these eggs are leftovers from that clutch. It is way too soon for a new clutch of eggs to be ready to be laid yet. It normally takes at least 30-45 days for the next clutch of eggs to be laid. Has she ever laid eggs successfully/normally prior to the clutch two weeks ago?

Knowing the above, it is rather disturbing that your tortoise isn't using her back legs. I think you should find a good reptile vet and go to him/her giving them the full history. It is very possible that the remaining eggs may be out of their proper position and might need to be surgically removed. She may have forced them into her bladder by straining to get them out. I believe oxytocin is NOT indicated for this tortoise at this time unless a good reptile vet recommends it and attends to the animal afterwards. Is there a veterinary school near you? If so, you could take her to their Exotics Department.

That exact scenario happened to a female Radiated Tortoise belonging to my friend last year, and she had to be spayed as well as having the eggs surgically removed from her bladder.

Is the tortoise eating normally? Is she getting enough calcium?


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## Pearly (Aug 3, 2017)

zovick said:


> She laid eggs two weeks ago? How many? It is possible these eggs are leftovers from that clutch. It is way too soon for a new clutch of eggs to be ready to be laid yet. It normally takes at least 30-45 days for the next clutch of eggs to be laid. Has she ever laid eggs successfully/normally prior to the clutch two weeks ago?
> 
> Knowing the above, it is rather disturbing that your tortoise isn't using her back legs. I think you should find a good reptile vet and go to him/her giving them the full history. It is very possible that the remaining eggs may be out of their proper position and might need to be surgically removed. She may have forced them into her bladder by straining to get them out. I believe oxytocin is NOT indicated for this tortoise at this time unless a good reptile vet recommends it and attends to the animal afterwards. Is there a veterinary school near you? If so, you could take her to their Exotics Department.
> 
> ...


I think Wellington has mentioned that the tort was NOT "back to her normal eating", she also said that the tort was able to MOVE her back legs but it sounded like she has not been weight bearing on them... that is very concerning. My reasoning is based purely on human medicine no reptilian experience, but there are some badic laws of physics that apply to most things in universe. I would be very hesitant with oxytocin unless for sure knowing the eggs are in good position to come out. If she dropped part of the clutch and retained the rest, there's probably a reason for it, and I'd be concerned of the reason being of structural nature. She may already be in pain (which maybe what keeps her from putting weight on her pelvic area) and oxytocin is only gonna make the pain worse by giving her very powerful contractions. Do torts ever get torsions????


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## wellington (Aug 3, 2017)

zovick said:


> She laid eggs two weeks ago? How many? It is possible these eggs are leftovers from that clutch. It is way too soon for a new clutch of eggs to be ready to be laid yet. It normally takes at least 30-45 days for the next clutch of eggs to be laid. Has she ever laid eggs successfully/normally prior to the clutch two weeks ago?
> 
> Knowing the above, it is rather disturbing that your tortoise isn't using her back legs. I think you should find a good reptile vet and go to him/her giving them the full history. It is very possible that the remaining eggs may be out of their proper position and might need to be surgically removed. She may have forced them into her bladder by straining to get them out. I believe oxytocin is NOT indicated for this tortoise at this time unless a good reptile vet recommends it and attends to the animal afterwards. Is there a veterinary school near you? If so, you could take her to their Exotics Department.
> 
> ...


She has had several clutches all with no issues. One with some fertile eggs and most not fertile. Some nest was dug, some she would just drop them on top of ground/tub during soak/ enclosure. 
She is eating, but not her normal amount. There were 5 eggs last week or two. She normally lays 4-6 when she hasn't dug a nest. Usually 9 if she has dug a nest. When she doesn't dig a nest, she never drops them all at once. It usually is about 4-5 days or so. When she digs a nest, it's usually all done from start to finish in about 8 hours. No school near by. The vet clinic has another vet. I believe that one is more knowledgeable, but being I had to do an urgent care appointment I had to take the vet on duty. I don't know if there is a better clinic th this one. The one I was going to use, has very bad care info on their website, so staying clear of them. I will see if I can get a copy of the X-ray sent to me. I of course didn't think to take a pic of it.


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## Pearly (Aug 3, 2017)

wellington said:


> See my post below please


What's her past history? How old? many clutches has she had? Were they uneventful? How many eggs does she usually produce? And how many did she have already this time? I'm not asking you about calcium in diet bcs I know you've got that one well covered. We're just brainstorming here


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## wellington (Aug 3, 2017)

Jodie said:


> Sorry she is having these kinds of issues. I certainly understand the stress they cause. I am traumatized and paranoid about it. Is there an actual good tortoise vet near you? I don't know if they drop or not before laying. I don't really think so. I would want an experienced vet to give the oxy. One that can monitor and perform surgery if has to. The back legs thing certainly seems more alarming. None of mine have had this issue. Best wishes.


Thank you. She never has had this before either. Many clutches dropped just most not fertile.


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## wellington (Aug 3, 2017)

Pearly said:


> What's her past history? How old? many clutches has she had? Were they uneventful? How many eggs does she usually produce? And how many did she have already this time? I'm not asking you about calcium in diet bcs I know you've got that one well covered. We're just brainstorming here


I can't recall exact number of clutches, around 10-12. Nested ones usually 9 eggs. Ones not laid in nest 4-5 eggs. She will be 7 in November. Never a problem before. Last week or two 5 eggs, all hard shells.


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## Pearly (Aug 3, 2017)

wellington said:


> I can't recall exact number of clutches, around 10-12. Nested ones usually 9 eggs. Ones not laid in nest 4-5 eggs. She will be 7 in November. Never a problem before. Last week or two 5 eggs, all hard shells.


Hmmm.... and this incremental laying is happening for the first time?


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## wellington (Aug 3, 2017)

Pearly said:


> Hmmm.... and this incremental laying is happening for the first time?


Well, kinda, kinda not. When she digs a nest she does it all in one day. When she just lays them without digging a nest, she will drop them here and there over a period of 3-4-5 days or so. She has only stopped eating in the past. So, the leg part is my reason I took concern. But they she will move them etc, as mentioned. Just won't use them to walk.


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## Pearly (Aug 3, 2017)

I have no experience with eggs at all, you have the "know-how" in that area, and I think your gut was right to tell you to stop and question things before going after obtaining oxytocin. Who knows it may still be ok to do, but I think it's good to rule out potential problems that giving oxytocin would only make worse


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## Pearly (Aug 3, 2017)

@zovick knowing tort anatomy and pathophysiology, what do you think could be causing her to not bear weight on her back legs? Bladder full of eggs? Nerve compression???


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## wellington (Aug 3, 2017)

I went and got her to do another warm soak. I'm feeding her cactus romaine cucumber watermelon and cactus not all at once. She ate a big pile of romaine and some of the Mazuri. Which is even better then she has been doing. I'm still waiting for the X-ray to be emailed. The idiots didn't do it before they shut down for two hours, ugh! Will post those when I do get them.
This diet is just started yesterday to help keep her well hydrated and loose. Not her normal diet.


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## wellington (Aug 3, 2017)

Hopefully this works. Lucy's X-rays. 
@zovick @Yvonne G @Tom @Markw84 @deadheadvet @tortadise @Pearly 
There's more I want to alert and can't think of them. Any others chime in please.


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## Pearly (Aug 3, 2017)

I was never very good about human plain xrays, i much rather look at contrasted tomographic scans or magnetic resonanse type pictures. Never mind tortoises! Sorry! What does stand out is the last picture, those low lying eggs... there is a hard structure on the bottom where they sit. What are they pressing on? @ zovick? Please sir would you look at those?


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## zovick (Aug 3, 2017)

Pearly said:


> @zovick knowing tort anatomy and pathophysiology, what do you think could be causing her to not bear weight on her back legs? Bladder full of eggs? Nerve compression???



She may be having some pain or at least an uneasy feeling due to these 6 eggs being retained whether ectopically or not which is causing her not to want to put weight on her legs. Id she doesn't put weight on them, will she dig a nest with them? I tend to doubt it.

The nesting history described above is not normal by any stretch of the imagination. There is something amiss with the tortoise if she doesn't simply dig a nest, lay her eggs, bury them, and walk away. Dropping eggs on the ground surface is a sign something isn't right, either with the tortoise herself or the area she has been provided in which to lay. I believe that the most recent clutch was going to be 11 eggs and she laid 5, then stopped for some reason. Did she cover up the nest or just walk away? Were the eggs all in the nest or were some on the surface?

I think possibly an ultrasound might be helpful in figuring out what treatment is necessary which is one reason I suggested having a vet school or a good reptile vet check her out.


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## zovick (Aug 3, 2017)

Pearly said:


> I was never very good about human plain xrays, i much rather look at contrasted tomographic scans or magnetic resonanse type pictures. Never mind tortoises! Sorry! What does stand out is the last picture, those low lying eggs... there is a hard structure on the bottom where they sit. What are they pressing on? @ zovick? Please sir would you look at those?



The eggs appear to be in the same area of the body where my friend's Radiated Tortoise eggs were. Those were in her bladder as mentioned earlier. This may be a similar case. Again, I would say that a visit to good reptile vet is in order.


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## Markw84 (Aug 3, 2017)

there does appear to be a small concretion (stone) possibly blocking the egg which seems to be the closest egg to the vent, depending upon which way the intestines is going. You can't see any soft tissue with this x-ray. Although it seems small enough to pass, and smaller than the egg, maybe combined with the egg it creates a "sticking point".??

Doesn't look like pressure on the spine. Tend to agree with Bill - discomfort is likely causing her not to want to lift up.


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## Pearly (Aug 3, 2017)

zovick said:


> She may be having some pain or at least an uneasy feeling due to these 6 eggs being retained whether ectopically or not which is causing her not to want to put weight on her legs. Id she doesn't put weight on them, will she dig a nest with them? I tend to doubt it.
> 
> The nesting history described above is not normal by any stretch of the imagination. There is something amiss with the tortoise if she doesn't simply dig a nest, lay her eggs, bury them, and walk away. Dropping eggs on the ground surface is a sign something isn't right, either with the tortoise herself or the area she has been provided in which to lay. I believe that the most recent clutch was going to be 11 eggs and she laid 5, then stopped for some reason. Did she cover up the nest or just walk away? Were the eggs all in the nest or were some on the surface?
> 
> I think possibly an ultrasound might be helpful in figuring out what treatment is necessary which is one reason I suggested having a vet school or a good reptile vet check her out.





zovick said:


> The eggs appear to be in the same area of the body where my friend's Radiated Tortoise eggs were. Those were in her bladder as mentioned earlier. This may be a similar case. Again, I would say that a visit to good reptile vet is in order.





Markw84 said:


> there does appear to be a small concretion (stone) possibly blocking the egg which seems to be the closest egg to the vent, depending upon which way the intestines is going. You can't see any soft tissue with this x-ray. Although it seems small enough to pass, and smaller than the egg, maybe combined with the egg it creates a "sticking point".??
> 
> Doesn't look like pressure on the spine. Tend to agree with Bill - discomfort is likely causing her not to want to lift up.


Totally makes sense. Thanks Guys


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## wellington (Aug 3, 2017)

When she does dig a nest she does it beginning to end. 
She has also in the past dug test holes. Both inside and her outside area, she will dig a nest or sometimes she doesn't dig. She probably has laid 2-4 clutches not in nest. Her very first two ever clutches were not in a nest. Then I think it was her 4 or 5 one was not in a nest The rest after that has been and now this time. 
Should I still stay away from the oxytocin? She did eat good today.


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## wellington (Aug 3, 2017)

Markw84 said:


> there does appear to be a small concretion (stone) possibly blocking the egg which seems to be the closest egg to the vent, depending upon which way the intestines is going. You can't see any soft tissue with this x-ray. Although it seems small enough to pass, and smaller than the egg, maybe combined with the egg it creates a "sticking point".??
> 
> Doesn't look like pressure on the spine. Tend to agree with Bill - discomfort is likely causing her not to want to lift up.


I did ask the vet about the spot I think your talking about. Vet wasn't concerned with it.


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## Pearly (Aug 3, 2017)

wellington said:


> When she does dig a nest she does it beginning to end.
> She has also in the past dug test holes. Both inside and her outside area, she will dig a nest or sometimes she doesn't dig. She probably has laid 2-4 clutches not in nest. Her very first two ever clutches were not in a nest. Then I think it was her 4 or 5 one was not in a nest The rest after that has been and now this time.
> Should I still stay away from the oxytocin? She did eat good today.


What would be the rationale of using oxytocin now please? Do the eggs deteriorate after certain time unless they are out? This is all very interesting.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 3, 2017)

This is interesting to read. This is what I did.

Last year when the 60 pound Manouria emys phayrei was dribbling eggs out, we had her radiographed and there was still some 40plus eggs in her. None looked abnormal. I guess if some eggs are fused they can cause serious problems, or strange shaped eggs. But all looked normal.

It is though by some that blood calcium needs to be elevated as all those muscles that will 'spasm' use calcium as nerve to nerve conductors. 

So pre-oxytocin she was given 3 TUMS per day for two days. The syringes were loaded with 3 CC (ml) each and were injected in the front leg on the 'neck side'. One dose led to egg laying in about an hour and half. She continued laying for a few hours. When the egg count laid was about a dozen less than showed up in the radiograph, we gave her a second syringe of 3 CC. She laid a few more but then it stopped. The eggs are in what could be called a single file line, so those last eggs had much further to travel than the first few. Over the next few days she dribble the last few out.

So a total of 6 CC for a 60 pound tortoise pre-conditioned with an short increase in calcium.


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## Markw84 (Aug 3, 2017)

Pearly said:


> What would be the rationale of using oxytocin now please? This is all very intersting


I would think oxytocin is contra indicated here now. Seems to be other things going on. with her history of poor egg laying ability/desire and Bill's seemingly similar experience with a torn bladder would make a ultrasound or more definitive look a better option. I do think that looks like a concretion I would also want a more definitive answer on.


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## wellington (Aug 3, 2017)

Markw84 said:


> I would think oxytocin is contra indicated here now. Seems to be other things going on. with her history of poor egg laying ability/desire and Bill's seemingly similar experience with a torn bladder would make a ultrasound or more definitive look a better option. I do think that looks like a concretion I would also want a more definitive answer on.


Are you thinking a secretion like in a egg leaking?


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## wellington (Aug 3, 2017)

Will said:


> This is interesting to read. This is what I did.
> 
> Last year when the 60 pound Manouria emys phayrei was dribbling eggs out, we had her radiographed and there was still some 40plus eggs in her. None looked abnormal. I guess if some eggs are fused they can cause serious problems, or strange shaped eggs. But all looked normal.
> 
> ...


She did prescribe a prescription liquid calcium. However, it has to be made up through the pharmacy and it won't be ready for pick up until Monday. I am upping her calcium until then with the cactus and I can also do the tums. She is eating much better, twice already today a handful of romaine for extra hydration and some Mazuri. I am going to give her more cactus later today. I will get some tums in that mixture.


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## Markw84 (Aug 3, 2017)

wellington said:


> Are you thinking a secretion like in a egg leaking?


No that wasn't spell check, I did mean Concretion - a solid mass. A bladder stone.


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## wellington (Aug 3, 2017)

Okay, at this point I can only do supportive until next week. I not only have to go out of state, but can't get into the vet at the clinic that is more experienced with torts then the one I seen until then either. 
Other then the not using the back legs, she is eating good and has her head out until I spook her. She's not one of my social ones. 
I also don't understand the abnormal egg laying mentioned several times. I was told it can be fairly normal in a young tort. Those eggs that were never nested for were all soft except these last ones and she never had a problem getting them out. Just never happened all at once like the ones she does nest for. 
Can someone explain why it's viewed as poor egg laying history please?


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## wellington (Aug 3, 2017)

Markw84 said:


> No that wasn't spell check, I did mean Concretion - a solid mass. A bladder stone.


Oops, sorry, I just didn't even read it right. I had secretion on the brain cuz it's so close to an egg, that's what I thought it was when I pointed it out to the vet.


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## zovick (Aug 3, 2017)

Markw84 said:


> I would think oxytocin is contra indicated here now. Seems to be other things going on. with her history of poor egg laying ability/desire and Bill's seemingly similar experience with a torn bladder would make a ultrasound or more definitive look a better option. I do think that looks like a concretion I would also want a more definitive answer on.



I am in agreement with Mark. I would not use oxytocin on this particular tortoise now knowing all of her history and having seen the radiographs unless it were done under a veterinarian's care. I would also recommend that said care would best be done by a certified exotics vet.


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## Neal (Aug 3, 2017)

I can't provide any advice to help with your current situation, but perhaps some family history might help a bit with understand the big picture or rule out potential issues.

The egg development frequency you have described seems almost identical to the mother, so these eggs may not be left-overs from the last clutch. The mother of your tortoise is also relatively small at about 20lbs and around 11 inches. Despite her size, she is heavy producer laying small clutches of 6 - 8 eggs, but every 2 - 3 weeks. The highest number of clutches in one year she has laid was 9, with the average being 6. 

The surface egg-laying and not using the back legs is obviously not normal. I experience surface egg laying with all of my females, but it's usually one or two eggs and only at the very beginning of egg laying season. It doesn't happen again until next season starts.


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## wellington (Aug 3, 2017)

Neal said:


> I can't provide any advice to help with your current situation, but perhaps some family history might help a bit with understand the big picture or rule out potential issues.
> 
> The egg development frequency you have described seems almost identical to the mother, so these eggs may not be left-overs from the last clutch. The mother of your tortoise is also relatively small at about 20lbs and around 11 inches. Despite her size, she is heavy producer laying small clutches of 6 - 8 eggs, but every 2 - 3 weeks. The highest number of clutches in one year she has laid was 9, with the average being 6.
> 
> The surface egg-laying and not using the back legs is obviously not normal. I experience surface egg laying with all of my females, but it's usually one or two eggs and only at the very beginning of egg laying season. It doesn't happen again until next season starts.


Thanks Neal, Lucy does sound a lot like her mother. I have kept Lucy from the males this spring/summer so far, except a couple days when someone, pushed their way through the fence, darn boys. However, they were on the side of her not where they were suppose to be LOL. If my memory is correct, lots going on here, she has not had any eggs yet this year until the ones laid last week and now the ones she's carrying. Not sure when egg laying season is. Her very first two every clutches were in the first June 2015 they were both surface dropped and about 2-3 weeks apart. Then she nested and laid in August and again in September and again October all in dug nest. Then she had some surface eggs twice during the winter and she didn't have a proper nesting spot. Didn't think she would lay in the winter. That was all in 2015. Finally found my records of 2015. Can't find last years. I'm bad at record keeping. Last year, 2016 she did have 4-5 clutches but none were fertile. All dug and nested. Not sure of the months though. 
Her nesting ones all seemed about a month or so apart. The surface ones were all closer together, but came out a few at a time and about 2 weeks apart.


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## Pearly (Aug 3, 2017)

Neal said:


> I can't provide any advice to help with your current situation, but perhaps some family history might help a bit with understand the big picture or rule out potential issues.
> 
> The egg development frequency you have described seems almost identical to the mother, so these eggs may not be left-overs from the last clutch. The mother of your tortoise is also relatively small at about 20lbs and around 11 inches. Despite her size, she is heavy producer laying small clutches of 6 - 8 eggs, but every 2 - 3 weeks. The highest number of clutches in one year she has laid was 9, with the average being 6.
> 
> The surface egg-laying and not using the back legs is obviously not normal. I experience surface egg laying with all of my females, but it's usually one or two eggs and only at the very beginning of egg laying season. It doesn't happen again until next season starts.


Very interesting to know there maybe a genetic component to her pattern, leaving me to put all emphasis on looking into the issue with those hind legs. Still with that I'd like to get some more in depth imaging done, unless between now and Monday she drops all the eggs and her legs get back to normal. Then we know that this has to do with how she carries her gravid belly. I'm also curious why would the vet dismiss the calculus-looking object on the X-rays...


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## Neal (Aug 3, 2017)

wellington said:


> Thanks Neal, Lucy does sound a lot like her mother. I have kept Lucy from the males this spring/summer so far, except a couple days when someone, pushed their way through the fence, darn boys. However, they were on the side of her not where they were suppose to be LOL. If my memory is correct, lots going on here, she has not had any eggs yet this year until the ones laid last week and now the ones she's carrying. Not sure when egg laying season is. Her very first two every clutches were in the first June 2015 they were both surface dropped and about 2-3 weeks apart. Then she nested and laid in August and again in September and again October all in dug nest. Then she had some surface eggs twice during the winter and she didn't have a proper nesting spot. Didn't think she would lay in the winter. That was all in 2015. Finally found my records of 2015. Can't find last years. I'm bad at record keeping. Last year, 2016 she did have 4-5 clutches but none were fertile. All dug and nested. Not sure of the months though.
> Her nesting ones all seemed about a month or so apart. The surface ones were all closer together, but came out a few at a time and about 2 weeks apart.



Are you sure none were fertile, or just none hatched? Did you candle the eggs? I have always had poor luck with incubating the mother's eggs, but when I leave them in the ground over winter the hatch rates jump from the low teens to 60% to 70%.

I can't speak to leopards in all areas of the US, but with most in AZ the egg laying season is in sync with the monsoon season. Mid-June is when it starts, but usually extends beyond monsoon season to November and December. So it sounds like yours began developing in (what I would consider) the normal season.


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## wellington (Aug 3, 2017)

Neal said:


> Are you sure none were fertile, or just none hatched? Did you candle the eggs? I have always had poor luck with incubating the mother's eggs, but when I leave them in the ground over winter the hatch rates jump from the low teens to 60% to 70%.
> 
> I can't speak to leopards in all areas of the US, but with most in AZ the egg laying season is in sync with the monsoon season. Mid-June is when it starts, but usually extends beyond monsoon season to November and December. So it sounds like yours began developing in (what I would consider) the normal season.


I had one hatch from her first clutch. Then from that same clutch two were developed one completely, one almost, but both dead. The rest of the eggs I incubated never developed anything. I have one baby that will be 2 in November.


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## zovick (Aug 7, 2017)

@wellington Do you have any news from the vet as of yet?


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## wellington (Aug 7, 2017)

zovick said:


> @wellington Do you have any news from the vet as of yet?


No, she is now eating like a pig and has had her back legs out. She did walk in the tub during a soak today. Not sure how much cuz she clamps up as soon as she knows I'm near, but I seen her up on them. The calcium med didn't come in yet either. She also has moved in her enclosure from side to side just not sure if she's up and walking then too or not.


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## wellington (Aug 17, 2017)

Update. Lucy seen a different vet today. New set of X-rays showed eggs same size and in same position. The odd unidentified object in the graphs has moved and appears to be in her stomach/intestines. Not sure yet what it is. Will be keeping an eye on it to see if it passes.
Oxytocin injection given. Approximately 2 hours later and a nice warm soak at home, all eggs have been laid. Will post new X-rays when I receive them.


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## Jodie (Aug 17, 2017)

Great news! Glad to hear this worked out well.


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## Shaif (Aug 17, 2017)

Markw84 said:


> there does appear to be a small concretion (stone) possibly blocking the egg which seems to be the closest egg to the vent, depending upon which way the intestines is going. You can't see any soft tissue with this x-ray. Although it seems small enough to pass, and smaller than the egg, maybe combined with the egg it creates a "sticking point".??
> 
> Doesn't look like pressure on the spine. Tend to agree with Bill - discomfort is likely causing her not to want to lift up.




Human radiologist here, I agree with Mark. There is a fairly large left renal stone (remember left is on the right for imaging). I agree this is likely the cause of pain.


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## Shaif (Aug 17, 2017)

Sorry. I must learn to read the entire thread before I post. I get awfully excited if I think I can help.


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## wellington (Aug 17, 2017)

For a close comparison, I will post both X-rays 
The first one is from today.
The second one us from approx. 3 weeks ago.


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## Shaif (Aug 17, 2017)

So the eggs have moved. Minimally, but absolutely.
And so has the calcification.

That's very good news.

But I would expect more movement over 3 weeks.

I hope the oxy will help. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some changes/discomfort as this all passes.

Best wishes!


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## Shaif (Aug 17, 2017)

Also, decent amount of stool on the newest film. Maybe try some cactus and succulents? I think the whole system is slowing down.

Just my opinion though. I'm not a vet. Just want to help,


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## wellington (Aug 17, 2017)

Shaif said:


> So the eggs have moved. Minimally, but absolutely.
> And so has the calcification.
> 
> That's very good news.
> ...


You do need to read post first. The eggs have already passed. The "calcification" doesn't seem to actually be that, according to the vet. Whatever it is, the vet says its in the stomach/intestines. We are to be keeping an eye on it. No mention of a bunch of poop as you say. She isn't eating her normal self, even though she has been eating a lot and just had two huge stools just this week. Her diet has consisted of lots of hydrating foods, Mazuri and cactus. Thanks anyway.


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## zovick (Aug 17, 2017)

Glad the oxytocin produced the eggs for you.

Regarding the radiopaque object in the intestine, is it possible that she might have ingested a pebble or two while eating? Did either vet say what they thought those items might be? In the first radiograph, it appears it might be one larger object, but in the newer one, it seems it could be 3 separate pieces. Maybe that is good and a possible sign that it is going to be passed out sooner or later.


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## wellington (Aug 17, 2017)

zovick said:


> Glad the oxytocin produced the eggs for you.
> 
> Regarding the radiopaque object in the intestine, is it possible that she might have ingested a pebble or two while eating? Did either vet say what they thought those items might be? In the first radiograph, it appears it might be one larger object, but in the newer one, it seems it could be 3 separate pieces. Maybe that is good and a possible sign that it is going to be passed out sooner or later.


The first vet wasn't concerned about it at all and said nothing of it.
The vet today thought maybe she had eaten something. The only thing I can think of that could have been eaten would be a piece of repti bark. Small stones I guess could be possible, but I have not found any in their yards/enclosures. I guess while grazing they could come across some.


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## treefrog010 (Aug 23, 2017)

I only used oxy a couple of times but always preceded the oxy injections with a calcium injection. Also, back leg weakness and not wanting to walk on them could be related to a lack of calcium.


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## wellington (Aug 23, 2017)

treefrog010 said:


> I only used oxy a couple of times but always preceded the oxy injections with a calcium injection. Also, back leg weakness and not wanting to walk on them could be related to a lack of calcium.


No lack of calcium. The not wanting to walk had something to do with egg placement. She's doing just fine with the walking now that the eggs are out.
Thanks for your imput though.


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## wellington (Aug 31, 2017)

Last and final (hopefully) update. 
Lucy went for a recheck today. She seems to be back to her vampire (she loves shade hates sun or light)shy lazy self.
Had another X-ray to see what the "other thing" in the previous X-rays was doing. It's moving, so she must have eaten something. Possible repti bark is my only guess. She should have no problem passing it. 
No real reason for her originally not using her back legs. Can only guess it was placement of the eggs.
Today's X-ray above.


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## Shaif (Aug 31, 2017)

Very good news. Thank you for sharing and teaching.


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## wellington (Aug 31, 2017)

Btw, if anyone sees anything of concern in any of the X-rays, other then the the obvious obstruction that I have talked about and is on the move to its way out, please don't hesitate to point it out. 
Thanks


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 31, 2017)

Very interesting thread, Barbara. 
i'm very glad it seems it will have a happy ending..


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