# From Hawaii With Love; Long Distance Incubation



## Balboa (Apr 27, 2011)

Paul and I had another crazy idea for an experiment... go figure.

Tortoise eggs don't "set" for something like 48 hours after laying to the point that you can no longer move them. Maybe if they were sent next day air the morning following laying, they could survive and be incubated. This seemed a much easier way to "transport" babies, in vitro. We consulted a few "eggsperts" who all seemed to think it should work, so decided to go ahead with it.

What do you know, Pauls torts caught on to us. No way were they going to let him ship their babies 2600 miles. They each repeatedly laid on the weekend when the eggs couldn't be shipped quickly enough.

Finally after 3 weekend layings in a row, this female cooperated.





She popped these out monday night at about 10:30pm Hawaii time.




And about 1 pm, wedneday this box showed up at my door.




Paul had individually packed each of 5 premium "selected" eggs in its own deli cup packed full of vermiculite. I carefully dug down in each cup and found the eggs had all but one tilted a little off the "x straight up" but not too bad.




carefully lifted them out, popped them in the shoebox and into the incubator.




Hopefully Paul will add some pics of the expecting fathers soon. We're going to follow the developement of the entire clutch, half in hawaii, half in washington. Hopefully in about 100 days we'll have some lovely leopards hatch, 2600 miles from where they were laid.


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## Laura (Apr 27, 2011)

very interesting experiment.. cant wait to see how it goes... good luck!


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## dmarcus (Apr 27, 2011)

That is very cool...


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## dmmj (Apr 27, 2011)

Now we have the long 100 plus day wait. Because you know eggs never hatch on time.


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## ChiKat (Apr 27, 2011)

Very cool!! Can't wait to see pics when they hatch


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## Jacqui (Apr 27, 2011)

Interesting! I had wondered about something like this before, but not from Hawaii. I wondered how the Ag departments and such feel about eggs, as compared to shipping the tortoises themselves.


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## Neal (Apr 27, 2011)

dmmj said:


> Now we have the long 100 plus day wait. Because you know eggs never hatch on time.



You're telling me. Just had a leopard hatch out last night...230 days incubating, lol.

This is cool, let us know when they start chalking up.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Apr 27, 2011)

Interesting and creative!


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## Scooter (Apr 27, 2011)

Very interesting idea, can't wait to see how they turn out!


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## Tim/Robin (Apr 27, 2011)

A very interesting concept. I am with you, I can't see why it would not work. Now for the long wait for the results.


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## John (Apr 28, 2011)

Ha THE GREAT EGGSPERIMENT. Wonder if the altitude of the flight could have any effect on the eggs. Probably not, I remember doing a similar thing once when I was older, not sure of the year but it was shortly before I converted from sagitarius to taurus.Anyway I shipped a bunch of garter snake eggs to Russia, Siberia to be excact, I've been told they all hatched and were released into the wild and are doing well. P.S. You may wanna get spell check,experts is clearly mispelled.


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## ticothetort2 (Apr 28, 2011)

Very cool, so do breeders sell eggs off normally or is it more of if you know somebody? And if they do, what would the normal price be to purchase? 

I always thought it would be cool to really start from the beginning and watch them start from the zero hour.


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## yagyujubei (Apr 28, 2011)

People have been shipping fertile eggs for years with good results. No reason these should be any different. Usually, they're wrapped individually with bubble wrap. These should be fine.


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## Balboa (Apr 28, 2011)

LOL
We were expecting SOMEBODY to come in and say its been done, not surprised, just nobody we talked to had ever heard of it being done.

Thanks for all the comments folks


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## Missy (Apr 28, 2011)

I have ordered chicken and peacock eggs in the past with good luck so I dont see why this would not work. Good luck.


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## Kristina (Apr 28, 2011)

I have also had many bird eggs shipped over the years, but the difference is with fowl eggs you are REQUIRED to change the position. With tortoises eggs, changing the position destroys the fetus. Totally different circumstances.

Can't wait to see the result!


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## ticothetort2 (Apr 30, 2011)

So is it common practice to sell eggs? I wouldn't mind trying to hatch my own from eggs. If anyone knows of anyone who sells eggs let me know. thanks.


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## kbaker (Apr 30, 2011)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> Interesting and creative!



Would you consider shipping an Aldabra egg?


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## Edna (Apr 30, 2011)

squamata said:


> Ha THE GREAT EGGSPERIMENT. Wonder if the altitude of the flight could have any effect on the eggs. Probably not, I remember doing a similar thing once when I was older, not sure of the year but it was shortly before I converted from sagitarius to taurus.Anyway I shipped a bunch of garter snake eggs to Russia, Siberia to be excact, I've been told they all hatched and were released into the wild and are doing well. P.S. You may wanna get spell check,experts is clearly mispelled.



Can't resist, have to bite!!! How eggsactly did you convert from sagitarius to taurus????

Oh, uh, never mind. I think I got it LOL


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## onarock (Apr 30, 2011)

Dont know if anyone actually sells eggs. In the name of science  I donated these eggs to Balboa. Got my fingers crossed Balboa. I'll start taking a peek at the other 6 sometime next week. 



ticothetort2 said:


> So is it common practice to sell eggs? I wouldn't mind trying to hatch my own from eggs. If anyone knows of anyone who sells eggs let me know. thanks.


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## dmmj (Apr 30, 2011)

kbaker said:


> ALDABRAMAN said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting and creative!
> ...



I second that!!


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## John (May 1, 2011)

yagyujubei said:


> People have been shipping fertile eggs for years with good results. No reason these should be any different. Usually, they're wrapped individually with bubble wrap. These should be fine.



Thats interesting, I 've never heard of tortoise eggs being shipped, could you site references and case studies on this? I would be interested in reading the who and how it turned out on this subject.


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## onarock (May 6, 2011)

Update. One of my 6 appears to be chalking


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## stells (May 7, 2011)

Been talking to Paul about this... as i have been there... done that... and had the hatchling tortoises!!

It is very possible... as long as the eggs aren't warmed up... development doesn't start... and the eggs can be moved... 

You guys... are WAY behind lol


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## John (May 7, 2011)

stells said:


> Been talking to Paul about this... as i have been there... done that... and had the hatchling tortoises!!
> 
> It is very possible... as long as the eggs aren't warmed up... development doesn't start... and the eggs can be moved...
> 
> You guys... are WAY behind lol



Please provide details of your experience with this Kelly, since this would be something interesting to see people posting about yet nobody does.


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## stells (May 7, 2011)

Obviously the distance wasn't so far... but the eggs (Horsfields) were posted to me using good old royal mail... each egg was wrapped in bubble wrap... placed in a container... placed in a padded envelope and sent... all the eggs developed as normal... and hatched... this was a couple of years ago now...


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## John (May 7, 2011)

stells said:


> Obviously the distance wasn't so far... but the eggs (Horsfields) were posted to me using good old royal mail... each egg was wrapped in bubble wrap... placed in a container... placed in a padded envelope and sent... all the eggs developed as normal... and hatched... this was a couple of years ago now...



So obviously shipping eggs some 2600 miles over a several hour period would be a different story all together


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## stells (May 7, 2011)

Nope not at all... i don't think the distance is an issue... as i said earlier... as long as the eggs weren't warmed... they will be fine... they could travel as far as you wanted them too... within a couple of days... worst case scenario is if they aren't packaged right and break... 

I do suspect that these will hatch... a little while after the ones that stayed with Paul...


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## John (May 7, 2011)

stells said:


> Nope not at all... i don't think the distance is an issue... as i said earlier... as long as the eggs weren't warmed... they will be fine... they could travel as far as you wanted them too... within a couple of days... worst case scenario is if they aren't packaged right and break...
> 
> I do suspect that these will hatch... a little while after the ones that stayed with Paul...



Lol, you win. thanks for the help on the weed i.d. by the way.


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## stells (May 7, 2011)

weed ID?


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## ALDABRAMAN (May 7, 2011)

kbaker said:


> ALDABRAMAN said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting and creative!
> ...



The challenge would be getting one that is fertile. We get alot of eggs every year, 140 to 180 on the average, only about 30% are fertile.





dmmj said:


> kbaker said:
> 
> 
> > ALDABRAMAN said:
> ...


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## ticothetort2 (May 7, 2011)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> kbaker said:
> 
> 
> > ALDABRAMAN said:
> ...


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## Balboa (Jun 12, 2011)

Paul's been on me to post an update, so here goes. Sorry folks life has been keeping me busy.

All 5 eggs chalked, and now all show signs of life, ie, "the red circle of of life", veins etc..

Tried to get some pics, only a couple turned out.












So its looking like the experiment was a success. Of course I don't want to count my torts before they've hatched, but barring any major problems (like the incubator getting unplugged for 24 hours as has already happened once :/ ) I should be seeing 5 little leopards later this summer.


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## Mao Senpai (Jun 12, 2011)

How... very exciting...... can't wait to see the results!


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## ticothetort2 (Jun 12, 2011)

This is very cool, can't wait to see results in a couple more months!!


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## Yvonne G (Jun 12, 2011)

Hey, Brett:

I've been wondering where you've been. Good to see you're still around.

Nice pictures. My fingers are crossed for you.


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## onarock (Jun 12, 2011)

very nice. I cant wait to see them hatch.


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## Fernando (Jun 13, 2011)

Hey Paul...can you take a guess on the colors?


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## John (Jun 13, 2011)

yo rocky great to see ya back


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## Balboa (Jul 8, 2011)

little update:

The eggs are developing nicely. I don't candle often, but when we did last night we could see a little tort moving around. The wife was absolutely giddy. Once again no pics turned out. I'm going to try again and see if the lil bugger will put on a show for the video camera.

still waiting on those pics of the dads Paul


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## dmmj (Jul 9, 2011)

good to know things are progressing nicely


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## DesertGrandma (Jul 10, 2011)

This is such a cool thread to read. Can't wait to get to the end. Like reading a good book. BTW, would you mind explaining "chalking"? This is all new to me.


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## Balboa (Jul 11, 2011)

DesertGrandma said:


> This is such a cool thread to read. Can't wait to get to the end. Like reading a good book. BTW, would you mind explaining "chalking"? This is all new to me.



You're not the only one anxious to get to the end 

Chalking is a little tough to explain, it's easier to get when you're looking at the egg. Basically the shell at the top starts to change, it becomes "whiter" in normal lighting, but looks darker while candling. Its the first sign we look for to know that things are progressing nicely.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Jul 11, 2011)

Outstanding!


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## Fernando (Jul 27, 2011)

How are things going with the eggs balboa??


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## pierced_pixie (Jul 28, 2011)

It will be so cool if they actually hatch! Really excited to see how this turns out ^ ^


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## John1982 (Jul 28, 2011)

Very cool post to read, good luck!


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## Balboa (Aug 14, 2011)

I have someone to introduce to y'all. We first noticed a crack on Friday, and this is her progress as of this morning.







I'd say it worked


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## Robert (Aug 14, 2011)

Very cool


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## coreyc (Aug 14, 2011)

Awesome congrats  how are the others doing ?


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## Balboa (Aug 14, 2011)

No activity on the other 4 yet, but they look promising. Of the 6 that stayed with Paul one has hatched so far. We find it interesting that the shipping seemed to delay chalking for about a week, but we still had one each hatch at almost the same time.


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## ticothetort2 (Aug 14, 2011)

This is awesome! Congrats on a successful long distance hatching.


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## DesertGrandma (Aug 14, 2011)

Awwww. How cute. Can't wait to see them all.


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## Balboa (Sep 24, 2011)

So this is the taste of Hubris.

As some of you may know, our early elation at the apparent success of the experiment was followed quickly by the tragedy of defeat. I've held off on posting in the hopes of getting to the root of the problem, but have been left with only questions.

The first to hatch (Nani) had a visible birth defect, something in our inexperience we thought was a "troubled" yolk sack, was nothing of the sort, and turned out to be an occlusion, containing a portion of her internal organs. She never had a chance.

This we could have probably dealt with, but at the approximate rate of one per week from the onset of hatching we lost the hatchlings.

All but Nani started off well, eating, pooping, gaining weight. Then one at a time, they would stop eating and be dead within 24 hours.

Art was kind enough (and curious enough) to perform a necropsy on one of the hatchlings. He found no overt signs of trouble, eliminating the theory that shipping had caused birth defects. He also found no overt signs of poisoning or disease, but those cannot be ruled out without pathology.

This evening, less than 5 weeks from hatching, the very last of our leo hatchlings, the one we called Jeep (the second to hatch and my personal favorite because of his outgoing personality) died. He lasted longer after ceasing to eat than his siblings. Wednesday he had eaten extremely well.... and been his usual energetic self.... the following day he refused food and became lethargic... Today... saturday... he's gone. Tonight my daughter cried herself to sleep. We are crushed.

This is the danger of experimentation (though the experiment likely had nothing to do with this outcome). We were prepared for these tortoises not to hatch. We were not prepared for them ALL to hatch, and then not survive us and however we failed them, or whatever mysterious unseen evil (pathogen or toxin) that lies in our soils. 





Chow time with assorted weeds, zoomed and mazuri.





Jeep doing what he did best, being a jeep. Hard to see in the pic, but that was one heck of a climb.

RIP little guys.

P.S. Despite all our heartache, we are eternally thankful to our friend Paul, for the opportunity to experience the wonder of hatching these tortoises, and all the support he gave us throughout.


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## dmmj (Sep 25, 2011)

Oh man that is horrible news. Sad to have such a good beginning and then to have it end in sadness. Condolences to you and your daughter.


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## Jacqui (Sep 25, 2011)

Oh no! I really thought Jeep was going to make it.  It has been an interesting experience reading about and thinking about. I wish the reasoning for the deaths could have been found. I know this experience caused some tensions between you and Paul. I hope that all gets settled and you two try this one more time. *hugs to you and especially your daughter*


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## Turtle Guru (Sep 25, 2011)

That's cool


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## Torty Mom (Sep 25, 2011)

Turtle Guru said:


> That's cool


Hmmm, I don't think you read all the posts, the hatchlings didn't make it.


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## DesertGrandma (Sep 25, 2011)

Are you going to have any testing done to find out if there was a poisoning of some kind? Doubtful that parasites, etc. would kill them that quickly. Maybe a bad batch of something in the diet, a pesticide, or something like that.

It is important to know if you have other tortoises to protect.


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## Baoh (Sep 26, 2011)

Balboa, I highly appreciate the contribution you and your friends have made by sharing this information.


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## Balboa (Sep 27, 2011)

Thank you for the condolences everyone. This has been a rough one.




DesertGrandma said:


> Are you going to have any testing done to find out if there was a poisoning of some kind? Doubtful that parasites, etc. would kill them that quickly. Maybe a bad batch of something in the diet, a pesticide, or something like that.
> 
> It is important to know if you have other tortoises to protect.





We had baseline necropsies done on a couple of them, with nothing unusual found. We'd really like to get lab work done, but that's looking to be too expensive at this time, without guaruntee of results. Were we looking to obtain more tortoises this would be obligatory, but no more tortoises will be coming here anytime soon if ever. As it is we will likely be rehoming most animals in our care.

I agree, as quickly as they went downhill it seems like it would have had to have been a nasty toxin, however whatever it was it has had no ill effect on any of our other animals, maybe because they're not babies. Personally, I have not fully dismissed the idea that this was a result of shipping the eggs. Most of the "experts" I've discussed this with feel that all signs point to viability of shipping the eggs, and it was highly unlikely for them to have died a month after hatching, they should simply have not developed at all. All other things considered, they're eventual death from some unknown toxin or disease that has not harmed any other creature in our care seems a tad far-fetched as well. It looks like we will never know for sure.


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