# BREEDING LOAN PROPOSITION



## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 20, 2011)

We have been in contact with a private zoo that has a large male aldabra that we have been trying to purchase for many years. This male aldabra is giant and we have the history of him prior to the zoo getting him. Bottom line, he is a proven breeder and would be of great asset to our breeding program. The owner just will not sell him, he did give us an astronomical figure last year and I said sold! He then stated that he was just kidding and that he did not think we would even entertain his rediculous offer. This year he proposed that we place the male into our herd on the basis of a breeding loan for the breeding season only and he wanted a percentage of the hatchlings as compensation. 

The question/concern is how would you determine how many hatchlings the new male was responsible for, if any? We have high fertility now with our existing group and it would be impossible to determine his contribution to the overall production level, if any at all.

I feel he would be a great permanent asset to our program, however only if purchased, not for six months as a revolving breeding loan.

Please feel free to post any thoughts, comments, or perspectives. I sometimes do not see the obvious and seem to lack common sense, lol.
Thanks to all, Greg//ALDABRAMAN.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 20, 2011)

Hi Greg:

I don't know how strict you are on quarantine, but in my opinion, it wouldn't be worth it. You'd have to quarantine him for such a long time, then put him with only a couple females and not the whole herd, so you would know they're his babies. 

In my opinion (and I'm not very experienced in the breeding department), the reason you have such good luck with fertility is because you have males (plural) and females all together in one herd. The males testosterone gets pumped up because of having other males to compete with. 

If this big male were by himself with only a pair or more of females, you might not have such a high fertility rate.


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## dmmj (Aug 20, 2011)

The main problem I see is that the owner of the other tortoise would come out on top, it would be hard to prove how many hatchlings were his,and the owner sounds like someone who would just assume all hatchlings were from his male, and want xx amount of all the hatchlings produced. Personally I would not do the breeding program, like you said the fertile rates are high right now,personally it would seem to be to your detriment to do this. My 2 cents.


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## dbsneed69 (Aug 20, 2011)

Don't do it Greg!! Your torts are beautiful. If you don't have a way to prove that the loaner was the father, why risk giving up those little ones? Just out of curiosity, how on earth would you move those giants around? Could the stress of a move hinder the big guys "performance"? I am so curious about the breeding program you have. I say, don't mess with what works. Keep posting those pics, they absolutely amaze me.

Dennis


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## yagyujubei (Aug 20, 2011)

I would figure out how much cash you would be willing to pay for one season of stud service from this guy. Divide by $1500 and offer a flat rate number of hatchlings irreguardless of how many hatchlings you get. Lets say you would be willing to spend $6000 for a seasons services, then offer 4 hatchlings, period.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 20, 2011)

emysemys said:


> Hi Greg:
> 
> I don't know how strict you are on quarantine, but in my opinion, it wouldn't be worth it. You'd have to quarantine him for such a long time, then put him with only a couple females and not the whole herd, so you would know they're his babies.
> 
> ...



I agree with all you said, thank you.





dmmj said:


> The main problem I see is that the owner of the other tortoise would come out on top, it would be hard to prove how many hatchlings were his,and the owner sounds like someone who would just assume all hatchlings were from his male, and want xx amount of all the hatchlings produced. Personally I would not do the breeding program, like you said the fertile rates are high right now,personally it would seem to be to your detriment to do this. My 2 cents.



My perspective also, thank you.


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## HerpHouses (Aug 20, 2011)

Maybe I'm confused but what you have seems to be working?? YES diversity in the males might be nice but I would say NO Buy it or forget it? I also see someone said you have alot of picutres IM NEW here where do I see them??
Thanks
Danny Boy Hawaii


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## Kristina (Aug 20, 2011)

Considering that tortoises store sperm, up to years at a time, there would be no guarantee that any babies would be his in the first place.

I don't think this sounds like a viable option. It is probably going to cost you more (in hatchling worth) than it would ever gain you. I agree that he would only be an asset if he was a permanent fixture in your herd.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 20, 2011)

Kristina said:


> Considering that tortoises store sperm, up to years at a time, there would be no guarantee that any babies would be his in the first place.
> 
> I don't think this sounds like a viable option. It is probably going to cost you more (in hatchling worth) than it would ever gain you. I agree that he would only be an asset if he was a permanent fixture in your herd.



My perspective to the point, thank you.





HerpHouses said:


> Maybe I'm confused but what you have seems to be working?? YES diversity in the males might be nice but I would say NO Buy it or forget it? I also see someone said you have alot of picutres IM NEW here where do I see them??
> Thanks
> Danny Boy Hawaii




Welcome, check under the aldabra section.


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## kbaker (Aug 20, 2011)

It's a shame someone like that has him. He sounds like a bonehead!
Too bad you have to deal with him to have a chance to get the tortoise.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 20, 2011)

kbaker said:


> It's a shame someone like that has him. He sounds like a bonehead!
> Too bad you have to deal with him to have a chance to get the tortoise.



Well, he is very hard to deal with indeed. However, he is all business, the tortoise is on display with two others. 

My gut tells me he might reconsider as the economy continues to fail. He was three total. We have purchased several from him years ago on two different transactions.


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## Robert (Aug 20, 2011)

I agree with you and the rest of the group. Hold off. I have a feeling he will be joining you eventually. 

I couldn't choose Yes or No for the poll because I couldn't figure out what the actual yes/no question was?


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 20, 2011)

Robert said:


> I agree with you and the rest of the group. Hold off. I have a feeling he will be joining you eventually.
> 
> I couldn't choose Yes or No for the poll because I couldn't figure out what the actual yes/no question was?





I see your point, Yes take him on breeding loan, No do not.


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## exoticsdr (Aug 20, 2011)

NO! Really not worth the hassle, just wait him out.....


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## JeffG (Aug 20, 2011)

I think everyone has made really good points in their comments, but I would like to offer a different opinion. What was said about the quarantine issue is probably the most important point considering how rare your herd is. I urge you emphatically, don't ever do ANYTHING that would risk the health of your herd. It seems stupid to even say that, because obviously you know that. My opinion only applies to the assumed situation where you have determined that it is safe to introduce this male to your herd.

If you determine that it will not pose a threat to your herd in any way, I think it would be awesome to bring him in even if it is only for the breeding season. Genetic diversity is invaluable when breeding rare reptiles. It is worth a LOT of effort to add new genes to your group.

The way I would address the issue is the same as has been suggested already. Set a "price" ahead of time. Either x# of babies, or X# of dollars. Tell this guy I will give you one or the other and then there is no question about who fathered what. This means there would be a chance that you are giving the owner some babies or money that he hasn't earned if his male doesn't mate, but I think it would be worth it for the opportunity to add new genes to your group. 

I have no idea what the average number of babies an aldabra "pair" would produce in a breeding season, but I would probably offer about 1/3 of whatever the average is, or the equivalent $ amount. I know the money is not a huge issue for you so I would be willing to take the chance.

This is just my opinion. I agree with everyone who has basically said, "Don't risk your current success!" Don't do it if you think it might mess up what you have going. If you are confident that this guy won't screw up anything, then DO IT!


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## exoticsdr (Aug 20, 2011)

Just to add a bit to Jeff's post, if you were to do it I would make it contigent on a contract of several years so you are guaranteed (or much more likely) to benefit from the genetic diversity potential of a new male in the "herd". If he only wants to do it for one breeding season, then the likelihood of you benefiting is almost nill.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 20, 2011)

HerpHouses said:


> Maybe I'm confused but what you have seems to be working?? YES diversity in the males might be nice but I would say NO Buy it or forget it? I also see someone said you have alot of picutres IM NEW here where do I see them??
> Thanks
> Danny Boy Hawaii



Hi Danny Boy:

Welcome to the Tortoise Forum! Won't you please take a few moments to start a new thread in the "introductions" section and tell us a bit about yourself and your tortoises?

If you go to the "search" feature and put in "aldabraman" you will get many hits that show his pictures.


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## Chad Horne (Aug 20, 2011)

I say NO Greg, you have a nice active breeding group now. This loaned male would not create more profits for you, only the owner. So Having him for only a handful of months each year does nothing for you. This person would simply benefit from your years of hard work!


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## zesty_17 (Aug 20, 2011)

In a zoo setting, breeding loans provide great benefits to both zoo & animals... but in my personal life, no go, my turtles are mine & any I acquire as well.


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## SnakeyeZ (Aug 20, 2011)

I wouldn't do the loan personally. Quaranteen would be my biggest reason, as I am pretty strict about it. I bet he is only hanging onto him because he knows you want him so much. Maybe if you show little to no interest in him he'll offer him to you? Play hard to get... lol.


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## Laura (Aug 20, 2011)

what if you 'loan' him a female and get the offspring.. raise them up for the genetics.. or find his offspring and buy them... 
If you do the loan thing... what kind of contract would there be? what ifs? Insurance?


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## Baoh (Aug 20, 2011)

From my perspective, you have more to lose than to gain from the proposal as stated. If you have any adult females that are not yet producing for whatever reason, I might allow him a segregated area with those. If he stimulates those females and sires hatchlings via them, then surrendering a portion of the clutch(es) produced would be reasonable. Otherwise, I would not introduce him to the entire herd nor would I take the suggestion of loaning out any of your females. If some accident were to occur, it would be tragic and you could not be sure of what took place. Also, you could not be sure the eggs weren't simply taken without you being told if any were produced out of your custody. From seeing, but (luckily) not experiencing, many breeding loans go awry over the years, I would be very hesitant to engage in one. To that end, I am hesitant to even host an animal on breeding loan in the event some freak accident occurs. One can compensate, but compensation is not true replacement.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 21, 2011)

Baoh said:


> From my perspective, you have more to lose than to gain from the proposal as stated. If you have any adult females that are not yet producing for whatever reason, I might allow him a segregated area with those. If he stimulates those females and sires hatchlings via them, then surrendering a portion of the clutch(es) produced would be reasonable. Otherwise, I would not introduce him to the entire herd nor would I take the suggestion of loaning out any of your females. If some accident were to occur, it would be tragic and you could not be sure of what took place. Also, you could not be sure the eggs weren't simply taken without you being told if any were produced out of your custody. From seeing, but (luckily) not experiencing, many breeding loans go awry over the years, I would be very hesitant to engage in one. To that end, I am hesitant to even host an animal on breeding loan in the event some freak accident occurs. One can compensate, but compensation is not true replacement.



I agree, we have stopped all female breedeing loans at our program many years ago. Never any fertility.


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## DesertGrandma (Aug 21, 2011)

This has been a very informative post. Since I started reading the forum threads I often wonder why people have "herds", and why they don't just breed with another's torts like with dogs. Now I see some of the reasons why that is not a good idea. Very different indeed. Thanks for sharing.


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## DocNezzy (Aug 22, 2011)

Your system is working great for you. Don't add a potential "kink" for just a short time. Addition to herd, great. Temporary addition to herd, not worth the risk.


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## tyler0912 (Aug 22, 2011)

Your herd are lovely and healthy and you dont want to kick them down with one male that could be unhealthy towards your torts and then you have to say byebye to your torts....and wreck there healthy lifestyle...DONT DO IT ALDABRAMAN DONT DOOO ITTTTTT!!!......


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## JacksonR (Sep 3, 2011)

You could just get him on loan and just give the guy several random baby tortoises. As long as he mates with a female or two it might be worth it. Just need one time, store sperm. But like someone said you'd have to put him in quarantine...

What I want to know is how you track the genetics lines in your herd.


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## Baoh (Sep 3, 2011)

JacksonR said:


> You could just get him on loan and just give the guy several random baby tortoises. As long as he mates with a female or two it might be worth it. Just need one time, store sperm. But like someone said you'd have to put him in quarantine...
> 
> What I want to know is how you track the genetics lines in your herd.



Unless those are the terms, substituting unrelated animals instead of its offspring would be absolutely unethical. Mind you, such would be common in this industry, unfortunately.


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## JacksonR (Sep 5, 2011)

I still voted no...I was just putting out a possible way of doing it. Plus I said "how do you track genetic lines?"






Baoh said:


> JacksonR said:
> 
> 
> > You could just get him on loan and just give the guy several random baby tortoises. As long as he mates with a female or two it might be worth it. Just need one time, store sperm. But like someone said you'd have to put him in quarantine...
> ...


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