# Sick Hermann Tortoise Just Passed Many Impacted Rocks - Please Help



## Souptugo (Jan 24, 2017)

Hi there. My Hermann tortoise Charlie has been very sluggish the past few weeks. He wouldn't eat or come out of his hide spot every day. Some days he would come out and roam about but some days he would not leave at all. His appetite has not changed however, very hungry every time I offer food, eats and seems normal when eating. I soaked him every day, sometimes twice a day, made sure his temps were perfect and humidity as close to ideal as possible.

The last 5 days he didn't poop at all. I checked every day, skimming and making sure to be thorough but could not find any droppings. His pee had urates every day (very white, almost like whiteout spilled on the substrate). What could this mean? Dehydration?

Today after soaking him in warm water (~100 F - measured with my electric thermometer), I fed him. He ate 3 leaves of Belgian endives and some baby kale and then BAM! A massive poo. I decided to check it because it was very solid and odd looking, much bigger then what he's pooped out before. With a light and magnifying glass, I decided to check and he passed 5 big stones (big for his size - he is 10 cm shell length). Some were very sharp and jagged. I'm sure it must have hurt him a lot passing them. There was no blood (as far as I could tell) in the stool, however I don't know for sure. I also don't know if there are more stones in his stomach or intestines.

He seems MUCH perkier after the passing of these stones. Very active and burrowed really deep today at bedtime in his hide (he didn't burrow much before maybe because it was hurting him to do so?).

I looked at the rocks he passed and have NO IDEA where they came from. Throughout his entire life that I've had him (since Feb 14th of 2016), I have never put any rocks like that in his enclosure. He's always had pure coco coir for the past 10 months. Before that the first month he had organic soil. The plants I've put in his enclosure were clean and free of any rocks of that nature. Could it be possible these were in his stomach for a year?? Seems very unlikely but I don't know.

My questions are:
1) What should I do? Should I take him to the vet to get an X ray to see if there are more stones?
2) I'm worried some of the jagged rocks could have damaged his GI tract? Is there anything I could give him to see if more stones can pass easier?
3) Should I take him to the vet anyways for a yearly check up? What should I tell them to check etc...?

Thank you for any advice you might have regarding his situation. I am new to all this so perhaps someone who's seen this before could help me out.


----------



## Tom (Jan 24, 2017)

What is "ideal humidity"? What temps are "perfect"? We need to know these numbers.

Those stones could be hard urates. How often do you soak him? I'd soak in 85-95 degree water. 100 is getting a little too warm.

What foods are you typically feeding?

You've had him indoors for a year? No outside time at all? Or was he outside, but in an enclosure with your substrate?

He could definitely hold onto stones in the GI tract for a year. If they are urates, then they weren't in the GI tract though…

Does he get calcium supplementation? How much and how often? Mineral supplements?


----------



## Souptugo (Jan 24, 2017)

Hi Tom,

*Humidity: *the ideal humidity I was aiming for is 70% according to http://www.hermannihaven.com/ website I rely on religiously for guidance. For his open top enclosure averages 60%, I can't seem to keep it continually high like 70% with this open top enclosure (like they recommend). I mix water by hand into the substrate. It drops to about 40-50% in a day or two and I will mix the substrate again to increase it to 80% or so and it's this cycle. If I add too much water it will definitely go to 90% but that is unnecesary and might be too cold for him?

*Temperature: *It's typically 95-100 at his shell when I shoot the laser beam on it when he's basking. I don't measure the ground temperature but I'm assuming it'll be a little less. He has two MVB bulbs Powersun 100 W on each side and a CHE in the middle. I couldn't get overall day time ambient temp to 80 before but with the CHE addition I am able to get it up to this now (the ambient does drop a bit when I mix the water into the coco coir - down to about 75). I leave the CHE on all day and night because it's cold up here at night. At about midnight if I'm still up I measure the temp at his hideout and it's 75. I think it will drop a bit lower later in the night but haven't stayed up this late to measure.

*Soak: *So I've soaked him in cooler temps like 80-85-90 before and he'd squirm and would want to get out within 2 minutes. Now I raise his bathtub closer to the CHE while soaking to keep water warmer and he stays in still for about 10-15 minutes. I've never been able to get him to sit still in the bath for more than 20 minutes at a time.

*Water: *I rarely see him drinking. He splashes in the water to play but never drinks. I'm not sure if it's because he doesn't 'like' to put his head in the water or he's not thirsty. I believe he doesn't like the water because during bathtime, he stretches his head very far UP to avoid touching any part of his head in the water. Not sure how to get him to drink more water. I wet the food sometimes if I'm at home to feed him by hand so he gets some water. That's the only time I know he's getting some fluids.

*Food:* Since acquiring him, I've used only the following three staples: 1) Dandelions 2) Belgian endives 3) Baby Kale. I rotate these through every week and mix it with usually arugula or collard greens (he doesn't seem to like too much). Sometimes I combine with other staples or just let him eat one staple by itself. I try sometimes to put Grassland for fiber and he will eat it. I tried also regular Mazuri i got from Amazon crushed with a mortar and pestle and sprinkled on his food but he always eats 4-5 times more when I don't do the additions. I rarely give calcium supplements or Vit D3 supplements, maybe 1-2 times a month. I just put cuttlebone in front of him every other day and he sometimes bites pieces of it I hope that's enough. I also leave 3 cuttle bones around his enclosure.

I understand that we want high fiber, high calcium, low oxalic acids so I never mix the staples with things with high oxalic acid in order for the calcium to uptake properly.

Thank you to someone on this forum, I read the following and have followed these guidelines for diet http://chelonia.org/Articles/nutrientanalysis.htm

*Enclosure:* I've had him for 1 year and it's always been inside. His enclosure is 3.5' by 5.5'. We live in a condo so it's difficult to bring him outside. He's always been indoors. I feel bad about it but hopefully we will be able to afford a house soon. We live in Vancouver and land is very expensive.

*Urates or Stones: *So i took a lot of time examining the stones that came through. They are definitely rock-like. They did not break apart and when I washed them they looked like gravel, something you'd see in an aquarium for fish? I have never kept such substrate near him so I'm not sure where it could have came from. They all looked similar in color, brownish gray. Some were quite sharp.

His urates are streaks of white, very white but not gritty. I usually spot clean where he pees and can feel it with my fingers when I clean it. Sometimes he pees on the rocks so it leaves a white streak. I wash the rock and it's very smooth.

*Growth: *He's steadily growing. When I first got him he was about 40 grams and 7 months old. Now he is 10 cm, 220 grams and Jackson's ratio of 0.22.


----------



## Souptugo (Jan 24, 2017)




----------



## Tom (Jan 25, 2017)

Souptugo said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> *Humidity: *the ideal humidity I was aiming for is 70% according to http://www.hermannihaven.com/ website I rely on religiously for guidance. For his open top enclosure averages 60%, I can't seem to keep it continually high like 70% with this open top enclosure (like they recommend). I mix water by hand into the substrate. It drops to about 40-50% in a day or two and I will mix the substrate again to increase it to 80% or so and it's this cycle. If I add too much water it will definitely go to 90% but that is unnecesary and might be too cold for him?
> 
> ...



You are a fantastic tortoise keeper! Seriously, the above is everything that should be done and everything that a person should know. 

Given the above, I'm going to guess that at some point, possibly when he was on the soil, he came into contact with some little rocks. Every bag of store bought soil in a bag that I've ever bought has has little special surprises in it like pebbles, gravel, chunks of painted wool, bits of plastic, un decomposed/composted leaf material, etc… This would be my best guess since the urates are always creamy and because you soak so often and maintain a reasonably humid environment.

Some studies done in the wild suggest that some tortoise ingest "gastroliths" to aid in digestion and that these "stomach rocks" are able to stay in the GI tract while the food passes by. This may be what happened in your case.

About the diet: I think you need much more variety and more fiber. Grocery store foods are just not ideal. They need weeds and things like that for as much of the year as possible, and they need fiber, in one way or another, all the time. Some suggestions for adding fiber:
Herbal hay from tortoise supply.com.
Blended and rehydrated grass hay.
Fresh grass clippings. You can get little plots of sprouted grass seed at pet stores or some grocery stores.
The aforementioned ZooMed Grassland Tortoise Chow.

The endive is a great staple, and I would alternate between that and escarole. Then alternate in smaller amounts of cilantro, bok choy, carrot and celery tops, collard, mustard and turnip greens, watercress, kale, etc… I would not use kale as a staple.

Last thing. About the soaking, there is no need to be concerned about the tortoise remaining calm and relaxed in the soaking water. If they embark on a march in place, it actually helps with exercise and it also helps keep the GI tract moving. Some people think its a bad thing if the tortoise is trying to climb out. I don't. Doesn't matter to me if they sit still or run the whole time. Either way works. Some tortoises are almost panicky about it at first, but in time all of them calm down and realize they are not dying because water touched them.


----------



## Yvonne G (Jan 25, 2017)

In my opinion, those are not bladder stones. They're rocks that the tortoise ate at some time or another, and it might be a good idea to take the tortoise, the rocks to the vet and get an x-ray to see if there are more inside him. You can feed him wet food for a week or so to encourage passing of any more rocks (if there are any more), things like aloe vera, cucumber, opuntia cactus.


----------



## Souptugo (Jan 25, 2017)

Tom said:


> You are a fantastic tortoise keeper! Seriously, the above is everything that should be done and everything that a person should know.
> 
> Given the above, I'm going to guess that at some point, possibly when he was on the soil, he came into contact with some little rocks. Every bag of store bought soil in a bag that I've ever bought has has little special surprises in it like pebbles, gravel, chunks of painted wool, bits of plastic, un decomposed/composted leaf material, etc… This would be my best guess since the urates are always creamy and because you soak so often and maintain a reasonably humid environment.
> 
> ...



Thanks Tom. So I have already the following herbs I bought from Mountain Rose Herbs (suggested by Hermanni Haven web site). I mix these in once in awhile but I'm not sure he likes them. He will take a bite of the Hibiscus flowers and then go on searching for endives or other things. These have been sitting in my cupboard for awhile. Not sure how else to incorporate them into his diet more. I will try the herbal hay from Tortoise Supply and the grass I will try to grow or buy organic.

I will try to stay away from baby kale as a staple. I will try to find escarole but they usually don't have that at Whole Foods up here. 




I am not sure if this help pass the stones like you were mentioning the movement helps with passing stuff in the GI tract. I have 4 cameras set up to watch over him while I'm at work. One day I saw him flipped upside down after trying to climb the side of his house. He struggled like this for at least 2 hours. Wiggling back and forth constantly trying to upright himself. Because it was close to the light I left work as soon as I could to flip him over. He seemed fine and then a couple days later stopped pooping. Maybe they were in his stomach and moved down around this time? I am not totally sure but maybe the movement helped pass the stones. Below is a screenshot of the recorded video I captured on my Arlo Pro.


----------



## Souptugo (Jan 25, 2017)

Yvonne G said:


> In my opinion, those are not bladder stones. They're rocks that the tortoise ate at some time or another, and it might be a good idea to take the tortoise, the rocks to the vet and get an x-ray to see if there are more inside him. You can feed him wet food for a week or so to encourage passing of any more rocks (if there are any more), things like aloe vera, cucumber, opuntia cactus.



Thanks Yvonne. I will try to monitor him and his poop for the next couple days. I am wary of exposing him to radiation for an Xray given he is so small. I will check his poop every day thoroughly to make sure. I will try to handfeed him some endives mixed with a spread of grassland on top today and spray it with water. I know sometimes you recommend mineral oil but I will try that only if he doesn't poop. If he still doesn't poop frequently I will take him to my vet. He is not a true Herpetologist but has 40 years of experience and have taken care of many turtles and tortoises.


----------



## Souptugo (Jan 25, 2017)

So he woke up early today. I pulled him out of his hide and sprayed him down, I put him at his light to bask while I got ready for work and while I spray and mist the substrate. He still has a good appetite. I spread Zoomed Grassland tortoise over endives and sprayed all of it with some water. He ate 1 out of my hand and about 1.5 more before I left for work. He hasn't pooped yet but I will check on the poop when I get home.

*While he was eating he would stop once in awhile and pull his head in very quickly. Like he was 'sneezing'. I can hear air coming through his nostrils. *Then resume eating. He'd do this 3-4 times every couple minutes. Not sure what that means. Is it because the food is wet and it's getting to his nasal cavity?


----------



## Souptugo (Jan 25, 2017)

This is how he was basking today before I left. He seems 'comfortable'.


----------



## Tom (Jan 25, 2017)

Tortoises are creatures of habit. All of those foods look great, but it will take time for the tortoise to recognize those new items as food, no matter how good they are. Many people, myself included, make the mistake of using too much too soon. Instead, start by introducing tiny amounts of the new stuff and gradually increasing the amounts over time. It might take weeks or months for some things.


----------



## Souptugo (Jan 25, 2017)

So today he pooped out 4 more stones and a big wood chip. They are a lot smaller than yesterday. Really don't know where these little rocks are coming from but he eats them. I will continue to monitor his poop but it seems like he is pooping now regularly.


----------



## Yvonne G (Jan 25, 2017)

Feed that poor starving animal!!


----------



## MPRC (Jan 25, 2017)

@Meganolvt has a Redfoot who is/was(?) full of rocks, she posted some very interesting xrays of Roland the Rock Eater. You might want to look them up.


----------



## Meganolvt (Jan 26, 2017)

Yes, here is my rock eating yellowfoot's xray (well one of them). I was worried they were bladder stones until he pooped them out. From what I can tell, tortoises usually don't have a problem passing them and it can be somewhat normal for them to eat rocks. I wouldn't sweat it as long as he is normal otherwise. By the way, your set up is amazing and he is super cute!


----------



## Souptugo (Jan 26, 2017)

Meganolvt said:


> View attachment 198039
> Yes, here is my rock eating yellowfoot's xray (well one of them). I was worried they were bladder stones until he pooped them out. From what I can tell, tortoises usually don't have a problem passing them and it can be somewhat normal for them to eat rocks. I wouldn't sweat it as long as he is normal otherwise. By the way, your set up is amazing and he is super cute!



Thanks so much. That is reassuring! I have been monitoring him and he seems well. That is incredible how many rocks he can eat and still strut around normally. Very interesting X ray! Thanks for sharing.


----------

