# Upper Respiratory Infection



## ShreddersMom (Oct 22, 2016)

Hi guys! We are dealing with our second upper respiratory infection in two months. The first was a result of being stressed from an excursion he went on and was missing for two days. (He was accidentally forgotten about outside by my mother-in-law when a medical emergency occurred with her husband.) He went a 2 week course of every other day Baytril, and within 24 hours was feeling better and has been great since. 

Last weekend we upgraded his indoor enclosure to a much larger enclosure since winter is coming and he's going to be spending his time inside. New bulbs, new CHE, new hide with more humidity, change in substrate from peat moss and coconut coir mix to cypress mulch in the main area, with peat moss in his hide, etc. Today I noticed some labored breathing, lack of appetite and lethargy. After speaking to the doctor I work for, we started him back on Baytril and am hoping to see improvement tomorrow. She thinks maybe the stress of moving him caused another upper respiratory infection. 

Any other thoughts?


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## wellington (Oct 22, 2016)

Never really heard of stress bringing on a URI but, who knows, I guess it could seeing my thought would be more that it never was 100% cured the first time. Many torts with an URI, has taken quite awhile to recover, a month or more. The main thing is making sure the temps are correct at tort level. Be sure your using good thermometers to read temps, not those disc type things that pet stores sell, they are unreliable. For now I would raise the over all temp to 85 day and night and of course a basking spot of 95-100.


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## ShreddersMom (Oct 22, 2016)

Actually, after posting this, I did some reading and a thread posted here even says stress can cause an issue. So that kinda goes with what she is suspecting. We went over all of his enclosure features again, and nothing we changed should be an issue. He was more than cleared from the first infection. He's been off antibiotics six weeks, and has had two follow up visits and negative cultures. I'm just trying to figure out what could possibly be compounding it in his new enclosure. His hide runs about 83 degrees consistently, and that's where he chooses to sleep. His basking spot runs about 94, sometimes higher depending on room temps. His CHEs run all night long. I feel terrible for the poor dude. It's such a fight to get his injections into him.


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## Tom (Oct 22, 2016)

RIs are usually brought on by temps being too cool. Especially night temps. Stress _can_ be a factor and it commonly is when they are kept in pairs. (I know you don't have a pair, just speaking in generalities…)

I think you already know that this is how your issue started.

I like to keep the ambient temp between 85-90 24/7 when they are fighting an RI. Basking area 100-105. Daily soaks are a must at those temps. The warmer temps boost their immune system and help them fight it off.

Is this an open topped enclosure? How are you measuring temps? I ask because in open topped enclosures the areas away from the heat sources tend to drop to room temp and with evaporative cooling from damp substrate, temps can drop even lower than room temp in some instances.


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## ShreddersMom (Oct 23, 2016)

No, I don't know that this is how my issue started. And I still don't think that's how my issue started. His temperatures are no different than what they were in his old enclosure. So that leads me to believe that it has nothing to do with his respiratory infection. If it was going to be the issue, then it would happened waaaaay before a year into his life with us. So I don't think his night time temperatures have anything to do with this. That hasn't changed. I was concerned with changing substrate, etc. The bulb changes were simply because my MVB had reached the end of their effective lives. 

Please don't make comments like "I think you already know....". I've had issues here with people talking down to me before. I wouldn't ask here if I wasn't desperate for some information, as I generally feel like I'm being spoke down to here for asking questions. So no, I don't already know. And no, I don't think that's an issue.


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## wellington (Oct 23, 2016)

ShreddersMom said:


> No, I don't know that this is how my issue started. And I still don't think that's how my issue started. His temperatures are no different than what they were in his old enclosure. So that leads me to believe that it has nothing to do with his respiratory infection. If it was going to be the issue, then it would happened waaaaay before a year into his life with us. So I don't think his night time temperatures have anything to do with this. That hasn't changed. I was concerned with changing substrate, etc. The bulb changes were simply because my MVB had reached the end of their effective lives.
> 
> Please don't make comments like "I think you already know....". I've had issues here with people talking down to me before. I wouldn't ask here if I wasn't desperate for some information, as I generally feel like I'm being spoke down to here for asking questions. So no, I don't already know. And no, I don't think that's an issue.


We are trying to help. Saying you already know is not talking down to you it's actually giving you credit for knowing. 
We are not living with your tortoise, so we don't know the exactly set up, etc. so many people don't realize that the top of the enclosure is not where the tortoise lives, but that's where they will read temps. So many also don't realize that opened top enclosures are have food spots, as all the heat is escaping and the warm temps are only where the heat source is. What I meant by stress, is that something else is most likely going on in order for stress to bring on the condition. Just stress along, does not bring it on unless it's a long time stress that can then lower immune system. 
All we can do is give suggestions of things to do and to double check. We can only hope the members takes the help in the same fashion it was given, graciously, and implement any changes that hasn't been done yet to see if it helps. Good luck. Hope all turns out great.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 23, 2016)

I usually say that to let the person I'm talking to know I'm not trying to tell them something they probably already know, but merely stating my idea so others reading can understand my thought. I'm sure no one is trying to talk down to you. And I totally understand that you are worried and hopeful we can help you.

Here's my thought on the subject - I DO believe you have a tortoise that is going to be one of those affected by change. Some tortoises are prone to bubbly nose when stressed, and the changes in your tortoise's life have caused him stress. 

When I first see a bubbly nose, the only change I make is to increase the temperature in the habitat. I get it up to about 80-85F all over the whole habitat. Then I just let the tortoise be a tortoise. I leave him alone, watching him to make sure he eats and drinks and is otherwise acting normal. Because Baytril is so invasive, the only time I go that route is if the nasal discharge turns colored, thick and mucousy, or if he stops eating. Then I give Baytril orally. The injections sting terribly. I also mix it 9 to 1 with sterile saline (9 parts saline to 1 part Baytril) and squirt it up through each nasal passage.


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## Tom (Oct 23, 2016)

ShreddersMom said:


> Please don't make comments like "I think you already know....". I've had issues here with people talking down to me before. I wouldn't ask here if I wasn't desperate for some information, as I generally feel like I'm being spoke down to here for asking questions. So no, I don't already know. And no, I don't think that's an issue.



Wow! It seems some people will find fault no matter how you phrase things. Giving you credit for being an astute observer is now talking down to someone… I don't get it.

I made that remark because you said:


ShreddersMom said:


> Hi guys! We are dealing with our second upper respiratory infection in two months. The first was a result of being stressed from an excursion he went on and was missing for two days. (He was accidentally forgotten about outside by my mother-in-law when a medical emergency occurred with her husband.)



You just said in plain English what cause the RI. Why is my comment offensive in any way? Am I supposed to assume you _don't_ know when you just spelled out that you _do_ know?

*YOU* are reading emotion and insult into people's words that isn't there. No one here is your enemy and no one here is talking down to you. No one dislikes you and no one has any pre-conceived notions of you. I feel bad for you that you live in a world with all these perceived slights against you. We are all just making pleasant tortoise conversation, explaining what we know in an effort to help you, and you manage to find and insult in that. How sad…

Anyway, my advice in the above post still stands. I still think your RI was _caused _by the two night outdoor excursion with the cooler night temps and higher humidity of your area. I thought you thought the same thing. Please pardon my assumption.

The stress of moving to a new enclosure is very likely to be causing this relapse and the solution is still to warm him up and check the temperatures all around the enclosure. The medicine will treat the symptoms, but if you don't discover and correct the _cause_, it will keep coming back.

I don't have the time or interest in helping people who are going to be insulted by my every word and jump to false conclusions. I'm perfectly willing to talk to you anytime you want help or experience based tortoise advice, but life is too short and my time too precious to waste it where it is not wanted and mistaken as some sort of slight.


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## ShreddersMom (Oct 23, 2016)

The first infection I am very well aware of the cause. It was his excursion outdoors. When he came back he was dehydrated, and dry and flaky. And he had obviously rolled down the hill my boyfriend found him climbing because he had several areas of shell damage. It was rather warm when he got lost - above 100 degrees during the day and never got below 85 degrees at night. I watched those thermometers like a hawk because I just couldn't believe he had to fend for himself. It was heartbreaking to me. So whatever the cause of that infection, we knew to expect it. When I brought him in to be checked afterwards, my doctor told me what to watch for and said she would be more surprised if he didn't get an upper respiratory infection than if he did. 

This episode I feel is a separate episode, as he has had two negative cultures post treatment. His temps in his enclosure, even in areas with no CHE is never below 80. All temps are tested at his height. It is an open enclosure, but has four CHEs in various areas, including directly over his hide. He also has a MVB in one area that is his basking area. It stays consistently in the mid to high 90s. 

My last question on here I was basically told there's no way my tortoise could have the Coccidia infection I had witnessed with my own two eyes on a microscope. Even other members defended me. So yeah, I'm a little hesitant to post things. And if I misread your intent, then my apologies. It felt like a slight you saying I already knew, so basically why was I asking. 

Because of the amount of labored breathing I witnessed, and how very quickly he went downhill, I'm comfortable continuing his injections. Yes, I know they sting, but it's got to be better than labored breathing. Trust me, I hate giving them. But he's unreliable about eating, so oral meds are not a possibility, because I absolutely cannot pry his mouth open. 

Overall he's done great. Since I treated the high Coccidia levels he has flourished, eating better than ever. His shell is smoothing out with new growth, and he's tripled in weight in the less than year that we've owned him.


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