# Split/Extra Scutes



## N2TORTS

Would like to hear your experience/opinions from multi clutch hatches. Purely from incubation temps or does genetics play a role? What has been your experience?


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## Yvonne G

I've only had one splitty. He/she hatched out among 7 other normal-looking carapaces (leopard). I didn't pay attention to where that particular egg was positioned in with the others, or if it was closest to the heating element. I've had numerous hatches from this pairing and this was my first splitty.


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## Turtlepete

My fridge incubator has very even heat throughout its whole, so all eggs should be subjected to very similar temperatures, and any variations. I get a few splittys every year, with temperatures typically varying from 84-88 throughout the incubation period. I would note that those that have hatched outdoors in the summer (likely subjected to much higher temperatures, commonly in the low-90s air temp) more commonly have split-scutes, so perhaps this supports the hypothesis that it is a temperature-dependent phenomenon. 

It has happened from all of my females roughly equally. I have a split-scute female nearing adulthood that I hope to be producing f2's from next season. Will be curious to see her offspring.


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## allegraf

I had about 4 split scutes one year from different mothers. Then I realized that my toddler was messing with the incubator and the temps were up to 89F for about a week or so. Since then, I have had only one split scute with incubation temps at 83-84F.


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## tortadise

I waiver towards temperature. Especially since almost every species incubated here isn't done so in an incubator anymore(well a few species are) the split scute torts I've noticed over the years from transitioning to ambient from constant incubation temps have drastically increased. Especially the leopards. Out of 61 Leo's that hatched I'd say a good 14-15 were split scute. Same with the Manouria last year. Out of the 17 that hatched only 2 were split scute. They came out first and were at the top of the buried nest. The Redfoots whether least in ground in the greenhouse or put in the egg pot tend to have 1out of 4 split scute or extra scute. I think and this is purely speculation. It happens during the major development of the tortoise in the egg. It could have to do with cooler temps creating broader scutes and warmer temps creating smaller scutes. I'd imagine when the scutes begin to develop and get outlined then temperature must be just so right to create the perfect square or rectangle of the scute. But if temps are just a tad cool it will develop slower and longer and then stop creating a larger scute and not know when to stop or divide. Same thing on the photo warm scale quicker development creates. But I don't know just just a guess and a ramble. It's quite interesting to me for sure, especially seeing many opened eggs with different stage developed tortoises.


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## Tidgy's Dad

Very interesting.
Anyone else?


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## Yvonne G

This latest batch of leopard eggs that hatched (a couple weeks ago), the first one to hatch had an extra coastal scute on one side. None of the others that hatched had splits or extras.


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## Dragonight1993

my Steven has split scutes so he has 16 scutes instead of 13. he seems healthy, happy and he's such a cutey.


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## pepsiandjac

Dragonight1993 said:


> my Steven has split scutes so he has 16 scutes instead of 13. he seems healthy, happy and he's such a cutey.
> View attachment 145088


beautiful.Hes like a designer tort


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## ALDABRAMAN

~ We have been hatching out the aldabra species for many years and less than one percent we produce have any split, extra, divided or double scutes. We have tried many incubation methods with a few variations and found that a consistent steady safe temperature with full term incubation produce the heaviest and healthiest hatchlings. I have heard many opinions and theories as to what causes this, my overall thoughts is it is influenced by temperatures during the incubation process.

~ One of the most recent interesting opinions i have heard was that this was influenced during a certain early phase of development within a small window when a higher temperature was present!


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## Tidgy's Dad

ALDABRAMAN said:


> ~ We have been hatching out the aldabra species for many years and less than one percent we produce have any split, extra, divided or double scutes. We have tried many incubation methods with a few variations and found that a consistent steady safe temperature with full term incubation produce the heaviest and healthiest hatchlings. I have heard many opinions and theories as to what causes this, my overall thoughts is it is influenced by temperatures during the incubation process.
> 
> ~ One of the most interesting opinions i have heard was that this was influenced during a certain early phase of development within a small window when a higher temperature is present!
> 
> View attachment 152062


Wow!!!!
I mean double wow!!!!
What an incredible photograph.


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## Yvonne G

The batch of YF tortoises that hatched a couple weeks ago contained two babies with an extra coastal scute each; one on the left side and the other baby had it on the right side.

My incubators are in the house and I cool the house with an evaporative cooler that blows cool air constantly while it's on. So I doubt the house air fluctuates very much. The incubators cycle on and off in order to maintain a steady temperature. I have Little Giant and Zoo Med incubators. 

I have no idea why some of my babies develop split or extra scutes and some in the same area of the incubator don't.


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## ALDABRAMAN

allegraf said:


> I had about 4 split scutes one year from different mothers. Then I realized that my toddler was messing with the incubator and the temps were up to 89F for about a week or so. Since then, I have had only one split scute with incubation temps at 83-84F.



~ Interesting!


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## TerrapinStation

ALDABRAMAN, those are some incredible looking Torts! I think giants are the most fascinating animals, I just cannot get enough of them. Going to Galapagos and hanging out with some of those guys is a dream of mine. Thanks!


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## ALDABRAMAN

TerrapinStation said:


> ALDABRAMAN, those are some incredible looking Torts!



~ Thank you.


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## Tom

I incubate everything at 89. I went years with no split scutes. One year we had an early unexpected heat wave and temps in my reptile room where my incubators were climbed into the mid 90s. I had three split scutes in one clutch. Jacqui has them now. All other clutches in the room were fine. Never had anymore split scutes after that to this day. I've heard it is a genetic thing sometimes, but I've personally not seen any evidence of that theory at my place.


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## AnimalLady

Are split scutes not good? I like them, i like them a lot actually...


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## Yvonne G

There are those of us (like you) who really, really like the splitties. But some folks prefer their tortoises' shells to be perfect. In fact, usually the splits and extras cost less to buy.


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## AnimalLady

Really? Thanks for the info Yvonne, i love them and my next tort (YIKES!) will have split scutes!


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## Tom

AnimalLady said:


> Are split scutes not good? I like them, i like them a lot actually...



It is usually viewed as an "imperfection".

Some people, especially Jacqui, sees split scutes as beautiful and unique.

It is really a cosmetic thing, and unless high incubation temperatures produced some sort of unseen internal malformation, it should have no effect on their health.


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## Carol S

The only split scute hatchling I had was a hatchling from one of the two nests that I missed in the Summer of 2014.


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## AnimalLady

Tom said:


> It is usually viewed as an "imperfection".
> 
> Some people, especially Jacqui, sees split scutes as beautiful and unique.
> 
> It is really a cosmetic thing, and unless high incubation temperatures produced some sort of unseen internal malformation, it should have no effect on their health.


I'm just like Jacqui, i find them to be beautiful and attractive. I really really want one with split scutes!!! I even have a name ~ Scooter


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## tctpa523

Last year around the holidays, my breaker box tripped and the power to my incubator was out for maybe 7 hours. Luckily the temps only dropped to 78° from 84° for a few hours. I did have some very unique imperfections in 2 of the 14 Redfoot clutches that were in there at the time. I had 2 hatch unevenly formed with imperfect/extra scutes, 1 hatch with a tremendous overbite and deformed bottom jaw, and one hatch without eyes. I've had imperfect hatchlings a time or two in the past but never to this extent. The imperfectly formed babies died after a couple of months, the eyeless one lasted probably 6 months, and the deformed jaw guy I gave to a little girl at the Daytona show who fell in love with the little guy. I don't know if it is still alive or not. I will post photos of the eyeless hatchling as soon as I can dig them up on my hard drive.


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## Yvonne G

N2TORTS said:


> Would like to hear your experience/opinions from multi clutch hatches. Purely from incubation temps or does genetics play a role? What has been your experience?



@N2TORTS : Since you first wrote this thread, I've had another extra scute experience. I had a clutch of YF eggs in the incubator in a little plastic container with perlite as the medium. I had the incubator set at 87F but it went up or down a point or two throughout the period. Three of the 7 eggs hatched out with an extra marginal scute.


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## wellington

Just a reminder. This is an Advance topic section. Idol chitchat is is not allowed here. Please keep it on topic and experienced.


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## Pearly

here's some split scutes on my Shellie


she's got splits/extras... I used to think we had received "defective" tortoise and was bracing for raising a special needs baby... Would never return her (or any pet for that matter) to the breeder like some "merchandise" for exchange or credit. In my home once an animal comes through the door they stay. I'm so glad to have this policy, Shellie turns out to be a perfect little tortoise!


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## N2TORTS

Yvonne G said:


> @N2TORTS : Since you first wrote this thread, I've had another extra scute experience. I had a clutch of YF eggs in the incubator in a little plastic container with perlite as the medium. I had the incubator set at 87F but it went up or down a point or two throughout the period. Three of the 7 eggs hatched out with an extra marginal scute.


I have had some radical swings in temps this past summer due to how hot it was outside.....but 25 eggs on one tray only 2 hatched with extra scute, (same female who throws out babies with this visual occurrence)....eggs on same tray 1/4" - 1/2" spaced ...no problem and symmetrical.
Some interesting observations/reads can be seen here.
(Don't forget to read the references at the bottom as there are other great articles too!)
ISRN Zoology
Volume 2012 (2012), Article ID 846136, 13 pages
http://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/846136
Research Article
*Interspecific Variation in Temperature Effects on Embryonic Metabolism and Development in Turtles*


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## Anyfoot

N2TORTS said:


> I have had some radical swings in temps this past summer due to how hot it was outside.....but 25 eggs on one tray only 2 hatched with extra scute, (same female who throws out babies with this visual occurrence)....eggs on same tray 1/4" - 1/2" spaced ...no problem and symmetrical.
> Some interesting observations/reads can be seen here.
> (Don't forget to read the references at the bottom as there are other great articles too!)
> ISRN Zoology
> Volume 2012 (2012), Article ID 846136, 13 pages
> http://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/846136
> Research Article
> *Interspecific Variation in Temperature Effects on Embryonic Metabolism and Development in Turtles*


Hi Jeff. 

Do split/extra scutes occur amongst wild tortoises/turtles?


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## cdmay

Anyfoot, in answer to your question about split or extra scutes (called supernumerary) occurring in wild caught tortoises, yes!
I have found numerous wild striped mud turtles, eastern mud turtles, box turtles and Barbour's map turtles that possessed supernumerary scutes. Barbour's map turtles are especially prone to this condition. It may be that because the females are utilizing spoil islands in the Apalachicola River Basin to nest on their eggs are exposed to higher temps.

Not every wild female tortoise (or turtle) nests in an ideal site.

I've also seen a number of wild caught imported tortoises with perfect zig-zag or zipper patterns to their vertebral scutes.

Eric Holt, who incubates literally thousands of turtle and tortoise eggs every year tells me that low, or fluctuating humidity during incubation can result in split scutes. I would believe him in this matter.


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## Anyfoot

cdmay said:


> Anyfoot, in answer to your question about split or extra scutes (called supernumerary) occurring in wild caught tortoises, yes!
> I have found numerous wild striped mud turtles, eastern mud turtles, box turtles and Barbour's map turtles that possessed supernumerary scutes. Barbour's map turtles are especially prone to this condition. It may be that because the females are utilizing spoil islands in the Apalachicola River Basin to nest on their eggs are exposed to higher temps.
> 
> Not every wild female tortoise (or turtle) nests in an ideal site.
> 
> I've also seen a number of wild caught imported tortoises with perfect zig-zag or zipper patterns to their vertebral scutes.
> 
> Eric Holt, who incubates literally thousands of turtle and tortoise eggs every year tells me that low, or fluctuating humidity during incubation can result in split scutes. I would believe him in this matter.


 Thanks Carl. 
So we know that part of raising a smooth Tortoise is due to good himidity levels. 
So do the humidity levels play a major roll as the neonate develops within the egg? 
Especially when it's at the bone and karatin stage of development. 

Do you know if any of the cases that you've come across with split wild torts were not only hotter temps but also dryer conditions.


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## Anyfoot

cdmay said:


> Anyfoot, in answer to your question about split or extra scutes (called supernumerary) occurring in wild caught tortoises, yes!
> I have found numerous wild striped mud turtles, eastern mud turtles, box turtles and Barbour's map turtles that possessed supernumerary scutes. Barbour's map turtles are especially prone to this condition. It may be that because the females are utilizing spoil islands in the Apalachicola River Basin to nest on their eggs are exposed to higher temps.
> 
> Not every wild female tortoise (or turtle) nests in an ideal site.
> 
> I've also seen a number of wild caught imported tortoises with perfect zig-zag or zipper patterns to their vertebral scutes.
> 
> Eric Holt, who incubates literally thousands of turtle and tortoise eggs every year tells me that low, or fluctuating humidity during incubation can result in split scutes. I would believe him in this matter.


 You got me thinking now Carl. 
So the nests that are not as deep in the ground would surely become less humid under hotter conditions at a faster rate. 
What sort of depths do mud and box turtle make there nests at?


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## cdmay

According to Mr. Holt, humidity can play a role--in extreme cases. I wouldn't infer that slight fluctuations of humidity would do much of anything though. Mud turtles are well known for sometimes simply depositing their eggs in some leaves right on the surface of the ground. Other times they nest in the typical turtle fashion. The individual mud turtles I've found in the wild with aberrant scutes were few and far between. I have found far more box turtles with goofed up scutes but again, it's not like they're everywhere. I guess I've found maybe a dozen in the past 25 years?
Like I mentioned above, the one species that I've found a number of with supernumerary scutes is _Graptemys barbouri_, the Barbour's map turtle. My thinking is that the adult females are nesting on spoil islands or other sunny locations where the incubation temp will be warmer due to solar exposure. 
Jackson and Meylan discussed the higher incubation temperatures of alligator snapping turtle _(Macrochelys apalachicolae)_ nests in the lower Apalachicola River as the female snappers seemed to be nesting on spoil islands that are the result of channelization of the main river stem. The spoil islands offer less shaded nesting locations than the typical river bank locations. Although they didn't mention aberrant scutes, they did bring up the idea that the higher incubation temperatures could influence the sex ratios in the long term. 

I'm sure humidity could play a role in shell development as Eric Holt says, but I think he was talking about a minority of cases.


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## skuttle

Hi guys, is there ang health related issues of tortoise with split scute/ extra scutes? Thanks


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## Sara G.

I don't think there are any health related issues.
I think it just means the incubation temps were hotter and likely incubated for females.


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## Anyfoot

Does anyone have any males with extra/split scutes?


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## SarahChelonoidis

Anyfoot said:


> Does anyone have any males with extra/split scutes?



I have a male elongated with split scutes.


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## Anyfoot

SarahChelonoidis said:


> I have a male elongated with split scutes.


Photo


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## SarahChelonoidis

Anyfoot said:


> Photo






He is not a looker, carapace wise.


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## Anyfoot

SarahChelonoidis said:


> View attachment 173064
> 
> 
> He is not a looker, carapace wise.


Cool, he's sprawled out just enjoying life.


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## Anyfoot

Ok, now the confusion kicks in. 
It's said higher temps produce females with potential splits etc and lower temps produce males. Above is a male splitty. 
Does this mean an egg is layed,then at some point the embryo develops and the temp at that/a particular stage dictates the sex to be. (let's say in this instance it was a low temp at the critical sexing stage to produce a male), then after that stage and for duration of incubation the temps got on the high side. Is this how a male splitty would happen?


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## motero

I have a freezer lined with heat watt tape and a Helix controller. Non of my thermometers register any difference next to the tape vrs middle of the freezer. But the out side row of eggs closest to the tape on each side, have been consistently hatching first and hold more split scutes than the rest of the clutch. I would say yes temperature is a factor. But in my case the temperature difference is less than half a degree. 

<<The two babies in my avatar, are reaching 8 - 10 inches and look female, But they all do at that point, we will see.
I raised a group of leopards from hatchlings the split scutes turned out female, the regulars turned out male except one.

Just my observations.
Torts are Fun.


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## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> Ok, now the confusion kicks in.
> It's said higher temps produce females with potential splits etc and lower temps produce males. Above is a male splitty.
> Does this mean an egg is layed,then at some point the embryo develops and the temp at that/a particular stage dictates the sex to be. (let's say in this instance it was a low temp at the critical sexing stage to produce a male), then after that stage and for duration of incubation the temps got on the high side. Is this how a male splitty would happen?


I can't quote exact sources, but I have had several discussions about this over the past 25 years. It seems the sex determination is more dependent upon the temperatures in the latter half of the second trimester of development. To avoid split scutes and possible increases in deformities we would keep temps in the mid range and then raise at about 1/2 through expected incubation times to the " female" temps. I kept there until pipping. It seemed to reduce split scutes and still got females. Theorized the mechanism that sets the scute pattern happens sooner in the incubation process. That's not doable with clutches at various stages in the same incubator and haven't heard much on this since those days I was much more avidly exploring this so I don't do that much anymore. Also became less concerned about sexing my hatchlings. I do plan on going back to that method with my Burmese so this is great it has come up

Would love to hear more thoughts on this...


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## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> I can't quote exact sources, but I have had several discussions about this over the past 25 years. It seems the sex determination is more dependent upon the temperatures in the latter half of the second trimester of development. To avoid split scutes and possible increases in deformities we would keep temps in the mid range and then raise at about 1/2 through expected incubation times to the " female" temps. I kept there until pipping. It seemed to reduce split scutes and still got females. Theorized the mechanism that sets the scute pattern happens sooner in the incubation process. That's not doable with clutches at various stages in the same incubator and haven't heard much on this since those days I was much more avidly exploring this so I don't do that much anymore. Also became less concerned about sexing my hatchlings. I do plan on going back to that method with my Burmese so this is great it has come up
> 
> Would love to hear more thoughts on this...



Still a lot to learn here, but one of the things that puzzles me is this. 
In the wild do nests stay at a stable temp,I'm assuming not, especially at night, or do they?


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## bouaboua

This is our prefect miss scute Hermanni, and it is our very first hatchling.....


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## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> Still a lot to learn here, but one of the things that puzzles me is this.
> In the wild do nests stay at a stable temp,I'm assuming not, especially at night, or do they?


The friendly debate back then between us was whether you needed to let incubation temps fluctuate to simulate day/night differences, or if a steady temp would reduce hatch rates. Also the temps had to fluctuate with weather conditions. A sulcate buries a deep nest by digging a body pit first to help minimize fluctuations, it seems. But most tortoises have much shallower nests. One of our group became the first ever to successfully breed and hatch ploughshare tortoises, so had pretty good success. He at that time like fluctuating incubation temps believing higher hatch rates, and better hatchling survival.

I also know of experiments where sliders and painted turtles were compared at stable vs fluctuated temps in incubation. Groups were incubated at 28.5 constant, and other groups at fluctuating temps from 3 above to 3 below 28.5C. This was meant to simulate the natural fluctuations in a wild nest. The fluctuating temps produced more females, but interestingly also produce larger, more robust hatchlings with a longer incubation time.

I know studies of sea turtle nests actually showed very little fluctuation in temps at nest depth by actual measurement, even over the course of rainy days. But again, talking about a turtle that lays in deep nests by digging body pit first.

I'm sure by now someone in the field has had to stick a probe in some natural nests of some tortoises we deal with. It would be great to get some actual data on this. And how does diapause fit into this, then???


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## Anyfoot

So thinking logically, there has to be eggs incubated at different temps to acquire different sexes to keep the species cycle going. 
If we assumed in the wild that temps in the nest were stable throughout incubation this would mean that nesting positional sites would dictate temps. For example 3 nests, 1 in the open, 1 in dappled shade and 1 in deep shade, all 3 would have different temps regardless of the air temp. This would be one way of nature covering the temp ranges needed for sexes. I can't see this option as a possibility purely because of night temp drops. 

If we assume temps vary through day, night, and generally through seasons in the nests this would also cover the temp ranges required to provide both sexes. This sounds more viable to me. This must mean that temp fluctuation is natural. 

I was told there are also splitties found naturally in the wild. If temp fluctuation at the higher end ALONE causes splitties there surely would be a very high percentage of splitties in the wild if these same temp fluctuations are mother nature's way of maintaining mixed sexes. 
So is there another factor aswell as or instead of temps. If the percentage of splitties in the wild is low(I'm assuming it is) there must be another factor other than just temp fluctuation. 

Do we know if non splitties and splitties have come from the same nest in the wild?


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## Scott Hager

Last year was the first year that I hatched out sulcatas. I used a converted standup Snapple cooler that I've used successfully for countless ball python eggs. I had the temp set to 89 deg with 2 in line Ranco thermostats. There are several small fans mounted inside to circulate the air and prevent hot spots. 

As you can see over half of the hatchlings have split or combined scutes. She had 3 clutches and all three had a high percentage of scute abnormalities. I'll recheck everything this year and see if I get the same results from the same pairing. I'm going to change the temp setting to 86 instead of 89. I also held back 4 babies from the first clutch that had the biggest abnormalities. The biggest reason for holding them back was that my wife and kids fell in love with the more unusual shell designs.


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## mctlong

F


Turtlepete said:


> My fridge incubator has very even heat throughout its whole, so all eggs should be subjected to very similar temperatures, and any variations. I get a few splittys every year, with temperatures typically varying from 84-88 throughout the incubation period. I would note that those that have hatched outdoors in the summer (likely subjected to much higher temperatures, commonly in the low-90s air temp) more commonly have split-scutes, so perhaps this supports the hypothesis that it is a temperature-dependent phenomenon.
> 
> It has happened from all of my females roughly equally. I have a split-scute female nearing adulthood that I hope to be producing f2's from next season. Will be curious to see her offspring.



Please keep us posted on the progress this one's offpring! This is fascinating.

Just thinking outloud - We already know that torts exhibit some environmental controlled gene expression. For example, temperature can affect whether they will develop into a male or a female. We also know that, in some animals, environmentally controlled gene expression can be cross-generational. If split scutes are caused by incubation temps, I wonder if the scutes are a result of non-genetic physical malformations in development or if they are the expression of otherwise inactive genes that are triggered by high temps. If latent genes are triggered, we may see cross generational split scutes in hatchlings who were not exposed to the enviro conditions that caused the split scutes of their parents. How cool would that be?!


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## Pearly

I've seen split/extra scutes (one of mine has them) but have never seen scutes fused together into a one big scute. Very cool! And I love all your babies around that food. Which btw, you chop it same way I do. Good to see a Fellow Chopper


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## BrianWI

The one in the pic at 12 o'clock is really cool looking with the merged scutes. Did u keep him back? Have a recent pic?


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## Scott Hager

Here's a picture of the four that I held back taking their morning bath.


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## mctlong

Do you plan on selling the one second to the bottom?


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## Scott Hager

No I'm planning on holding them back. Hopefully they are female and I'll breed them.


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## BrianWI

Do you observe that around extra scutes toward the rear, pyramiding is more apt to occur?


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## Scott Hager

Not in particular, but I haven't produced enough of them to make a scientific judgement. If it is a split scute, maybe the smaller size would make pyramiding SEEM more pronounced.


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## Markw84

With sulcatas by far the most common is with the rear vertebral scute splitting


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## Tidgy's Dad

N2TORTS said:


> Would like to hear your experience/opinions from multi clutch hatches. Purely from incubation temps or does genetics play a role? What has been your experience?


I'm sorry, the births i see here ( or to be truthful, the just after births show no splittiies) 
i have seen several thousand, but never a splitty.


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