# The CAUSE of Pyramiding



## Markw84

I just posted this on anther thread, but as it developed, I thought the title of that thread took away from the message and was best in a thread of its own titled appropriately.



I have come to believe through all my trial and error, all the things I read and study, all the experiments done - heat, no heat, night heat, no night heat, fast growth, slow growth, higher protein, more calcium, better UVB, on, and on, and on - all to me only fit one basic take on this. I can't imagine a variable that hasn't been tried, yet all do fit one conclusion. Pyramiding is seen when you have high metabolism triggered WITHOUT humidity. If you give the tortoise higher heat and more food, without humidity, you will get Pyramiding.

If I think about the tortoise in its natural environment, they ENDURE periods of food scarcity, and hot, dry weather. They basically stop growing and estivate during these periods to survive - waiting for the time to thrive. When the monsoons come, they have ample food with the rains and humidity. They grow in those conditions. They don't grow in food-scarce, dry conditions. It's really logical - food is available when it is wetter allowing the food to grow. So warm + humid = grow time. In dry times, the food dries up, and tortoises stop growing. It's when we create an artificial condition they would never see naturally in their home environments that we see pyramiding. We provide ample food and heat & UVB in DRY conditions. We get their metabolism going, yet without one key ingredient - proper hydration. So they grow, but don't grow naturally.

Sulcatas seem to follow this pattern the most strictly. It seems where they come from, when it dries up, there is no water available, nor food, so they go in a real slow or no growth mode in those dry times. If you look at leopards and stars, some seem get pyramided in the wild. But they also come from areas where it may end up a dry year, but water sources may linger longer into dry periods, and I believe you would see tortoises (especially growing their first few years) through abnormally dry years - actually finding food and growing in dry conditions - and pyramiding.

3 1/2 months ago now I got a group of Burmese Stars from the Behler Center. Their philosophy is to purposely slow grow their Star tortoises a bit along the belief that fast growth would lead to more pyramiding. I got them and they were pretty significantly pyramided and quite small for their age. So despite purposeful slow growth in conditions meant to more mimic a natural environment temperature wise - They pyramided. The humidity in their enclosures was always quite low. They do keep other species in greenhouses with controlled humidity, but the Burmese are kept drier. The average weight of the goup when they arrived was 454.2 grams despite being just over 5 years old. I have since convinced them the monsoon season has finally arrived, with a closed chamber I posted my build in that was a basic copy of @Tom 's chambers. So in 3 1/2 months the group had now averaged adding 301.8 grams! So the average for the group was going from 454 g (in five years) to 756 g in 3 1/2 more months. So, I grew them too fast and they will surely pyramid after 5 years of a set growth pattern - right? NO! All the new growth is coming in flat. Here's a picture I just went out to take of the growth pattern you can see in one of them...








For me this continues to confirm that fast growth has nothing to do with pyramiding. This study this thread is about says high heat may cause pyramiding. While actually, my closed chamber is in my second garage that the past several weeks has been close to 93 dropping to 80 at night. The chamber constantly struggled to stay in the low 90's as I had to put the basking lights on a separate thermostat to turn off at 90 to avoid overheating. Their nighttime temps averaged 85. Despite this higher heat, faster growth, AND 5 years of a pyramiding growth pattern in a drier environment - I saw immediate change in growth pattern and what looks to be a total stop to the pyramiding. I did not expect to see it so immediate!


For me - I'm still convinced more than ever, if they grow - it must be humid!

After posting that, @mark1 posted a reply mentioning what he had learned in a study about the growth of keratin in horns in cattle. He referenced that article - I read it and a the light bulb went on in my head...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3574435/

NOW THAT'S INTERESTING AND SHOWS *CAUSE* FOR PYRAMIDING!!!

According to that study, keratin, while forming, if exposed to dry conditions will become more stiff and resistant to additional swelling if later exposed to water, while hydrated keratin will swell more resulting in a thicker layer.

I just seems to me all this mystery about pyramiding causes could be something simple. What would fit all scenarios is that the keratin as it fills in over new growth areas, will stiffen, and become resistant to filling in in a thicker layer above, yet add additional keratin below. That would cause downward growth with successive layer. As the bone growth beneath (especially in younger tortoises) is much more pliable, it would follow this growth pattern. However when kept in a moist environment, the keratin retains it ability to swell and add volume to the new scute in a more even, top to bottom, profile. Thus an even, straight growth pattern.

Everything would fit this... extremely slow growth would not pyramid and the keratin layer is barely filling in over new bone and this effect does not have a chance to happen. However, whenever there is faster growth, the larger new bone area we all see as those white lines in many species, will require faster keratin growth as well to follow. If in a dry environment, this effect will then cause the keratin to push the bone downward as the top layer of keratin becomes stiffer much faster than the bottom of the keratin. Through measurements over the years I had always believed pyramiding was not an UPWARD growth of the scute, but a downward growth of the seams. A pyramided tortoise most always measured just as tall to the top of the pyramid as a smooth tortoise is to the top of the smooth shell. So valleys are forming, not peaks.

Every scenario we have seen of pyramiding vs no pyramiding, including this study, exactly fits this proposed cause.

A few more responses were posted, and I explained my hypothesis further. Asked if that meant I was proposing "the shell needs moisture to grow properly in the up and out direction? That without the moisture it may stiffen too quick, causing the growth to pyramid?" I responded...

Basically, yes. But I'm proposing an actual CAUSE.

@Tom showed so well in his experiments that growth in a very humid environment resulted in virtually no pyramiding, However, we still don't know what CAUSES that. @deadheadvet mentions above his belief that temperature is a factor that drier air is a more stable temperature. Yet I personally have grown dozens of tortoises in very controlled stable temperature environments, and only when humidity was increased, and still using the exact temperatures as before, did I see a dramatic decrease in Pyramiding. For decades fast growth was also stated as a factor. Yet again I personally tired that, and did different diet experiments, yet only now see consistent and repeatable results of no pyramiding if humid - despite very fast growth, and different diets.

deadheadvet's assertion that pyramiding obsession is way too extreme has merit. The overall health is of chief concern. However, Everyone, including deadheadvet take pride in showing off the beauty of the animals we raise. All of us loving to post prideful pictures. That is a great satisfaction of raising tortoises, or any animal successfully. A smooth, non-pyramided shell, I believe, is a very desirable and sought after result. Although in a vast majority of the cases it is cosmetic, I personally see it as a sign of great husbandry. Not to eliminate it, but to minimize it.

In extreme cases, I believe some may actually be bone problems. But I don't feel we are talking about that here. It's the "cosmetic" deformity of the shell growth I feel is reflected in husbandry techniques.

So many of us have spent decades experimenting with FACTORS that will contribute to or minimize pyramiding. But what is the CAUSE metabolically? I'm 1proposing that the growth of the scute above the bone is the primary cause of pyramiding. The study Mark! referenced showed that Keratin acts and forms differently in a dry vs moist environment. When dried the fibers actually form differently and become more stiff and resistant to a swelling that occurs with keratin that has not been excessively dried. SO...

I'm proposing that in dry environments, and very slow growth, the keratin as it forms at the edges of the scutes does so in a fairly uniform manner. But when moderate to fast growth occurs - the faster spread of keratin, exposed to dry conditions, will cause the top to stiffen, and not continue to swell as it continues to form, while the bottom of the new scute keratin continues to grow in a thicker way. This pressure is exerted on the bone below and causes the new scute seam to be lower than the previous seam. In a humid environment, the keratin as it spreads, does so much more evenly, with stiffness and swelling equal top and bottom - and grows straight.

The more I think this over, the more it makes sense to me. I went back and reread Tom's "the End of Pyramiding" thread. It answers all the issues and questions always posed on this contentious subject. Many always seen to refute the humidity, or say there is no scientific basis - based on the way metabolically bone grows. They're right -its not the bone affected - its the scute affecting the bone! Just a braces can straighten teeth in a jaw or a corrective helmet's gentle pressure can straighten the growth of an infants head. Or they partially accept it and say it is complex and many factors come into play. Yet we see time and again examples of smooth growth with humidity no matter which of the other "contributing factors" are left out in the care of the tortoise. Smooth with inadequate D3, Smooth with no sunlight, smooth with fast growth, food with inadequate calcium and even metabolic bone disease - yet smooth! Yet we never see smooth without humidity somewhere in the equation. It also speaks directly to the issue I have noticed, and Tom and others have mentioned but there was never a WHY... How come tortoises seem to be very resistant to pyramiding once they reach a certain size? Well, it would make sense that as the tortoise ages, it reaches a point where the underlying bone hardens enough to resist the pressure the scute applies.


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## SteveW

Markw84 said:


> I just posted this on anther thread, but as it developed, I thought the title of that thread took away from the message and was best in a thread of its own titled appropriately.
> 
> 
> 
> I have come to believe through all my trial and error, all the things I read and study, all the experiments done - heat, no heat, night heat, no night heat, fast growth, slow growth, higher protein, more calcium, better UVB, on, and on, and on - all to me only fit one basic take on this. I can't imagine a variable that hasn't been tried, yet all do fit one conclusion. Pyramiding is seen when you have high metabolism triggered WITHOUT humidity. If you give the tortoise higher heat and more food, without humidity, you will get Pyramiding.
> 
> If I think about the tortoise in its natural environment, they ENDURE periods of food scarcity, and hot, dry weather. They basically stop growing and estivate during these periods to survive - waiting for the time to thrive. When the monsoons come, they have ample food with the rains and humidity. They grow in those conditions. They don't grow in food-scarce, dry conditions. It's really logical - food is available when it is wetter allowing the food to grow. So warm + humid = grow time. In dry times, the food dries up, and tortoises stop growing. It's when we create an artificial condition they would never see naturally in their home environments that we see pyramiding. We provide ample food and heat & UVB in DRY conditions. We get their metabolism going, yet without one key ingredient - proper hydration. So they grow, but don't grow naturally.
> 
> Sulcatas seem to follow this pattern the most strictly. It seems where they come from, when it dries up, there is no water available, nor food, so they go in a real slow or no growth mode in those dry times. If you look at leopards and stars, some seem get pyramided in the wild. But they also come from areas where it may end up a dry year, but water sources may linger longer into dry periods, and I believe you would see tortoises (especially growing their first few years) through abnormally dry years - actually finding food and growing in dry conditions - and pyramiding.
> 
> 3 1/2 months ago now I got a group of Burmese Stars from the Behler Center. Their philosophy is to purposely slow grow their Star tortoises a bit along the belief that fast growth would lead to more pyramiding. I got them and they were pretty significantly pyramided and quite small for their age. So despite purposeful slow growth in conditions meant to more mimic a natural environment temperature wise - They pyramided. The humidity in their enclosures was always quite low. They do keep other species in greenhouses with controlled humidity, but the Burmese are kept drier. The average weight of the goup when they arrived was 454.2 grams despite being just over 5 years old. I have since convinced them the monsoon season has finally arrived, with a closed chamber I posted my build in that was a basic copy of @Tom 's chambers. So in 3 1/2 months the group had now averaged adding 301.8 grams! So the average for the group was going from 454 g (in five years) to 756 g in 3 1/2 more months. So, I grew them too fast and they will surely pyramid after 5 years of a set growth pattern - right? NO! All the new growth is coming in flat. Here's a picture I just went out to take of the growth pattern you can see in one of them...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For me this continues to confirm that fast growth has nothing to do with pyramiding. This study this thread is about says high heat may cause pyramiding. While actually, my closed chamber is in my second garage that the past several weeks has been close to 93 dropping to 80 at night. The chamber constantly struggled to stay in the low 90's as I had to put the basking lights on a separate thermostat to turn off at 90 to avoid overheating. Their nighttime temps averaged 85. Despite this higher heat, faster growth, AND 5 years of a pyramiding growth pattern in a drier environment - I saw immediate change in growth pattern and what looks to be a total stop to the pyramiding. I did not expect to see it so immediate!
> 
> 
> For me - I'm still convinced more than ever, if they grow - it must be humid!
> 
> After posting that, @mark1 posted a reply mentioning what he had learned in a study about the growth of keratin in horns in cattle. He referenced that article - I read it and a the light bulb went on in my head...
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3574435/
> 
> NOW THAT'S INTERESTING AND SHOWS *CAUSE* FOR PYRAMIDING!!!
> 
> According to that study, keratin, while forming, if exposed to dry conditions will become more stiff and resistant to additional swelling if later exposed to water, while hydrated keratin will swell more resulting in a thicker layer.
> 
> I just seems to me all this mystery about pyramiding causes could be something simple. What would fit all scenarios is that the keratin as it fills in over new growth areas, will stiffen, and become resistant to filling in in a thicker layer above, yet add additional keratin below. That would cause downward growth with successive layer. As the bone growth beneath (especially in younger tortoises) is much more pliable, it would follow this growth pattern. However when kept in a moist environment, the keratin retains it ability to swell and add volume to the new scute in a more even, top to bottom, profile. Thus an even, straight growth pattern.
> 
> Everything would fit this... extremely slow growth would not pyramid and the keratin layer is barely filling in over new bone and this effect does not have a chance to happen. However, whenever there is faster growth, the larger new bone area we all see as those white lines in many species, will require faster keratin growth as well to follow. If in a dry environment, this effect will then cause the keratin to push the bone downward as the top layer of keratin becomes stiffer much faster than the bottom of the keratin. Through measurements over the years I had always believed pyramiding was not an UPWARD growth of the scute, but a downward growth of the seams. A pyramided tortoise most always measured just as tall to the top of the pyramid as a smooth tortoise is to the top of the smooth shell. So valleys are forming, not peaks.
> 
> Every scenario we have seen of pyramiding vs no pyramiding, including this study, exactly fits this proposed cause.
> 
> A few more responses were posted, and I explained my hypothesis further. Asked if that meant I was proposing "the shell needs moisture to grow properly in the up and out direction? That without the moisture it may stiffen too quick, causing the growth to pyramid?" I responded...
> 
> Basically, yes. But I'm proposing an actual CAUSE.
> 
> @Tom showed so well in his experiments that growth in a very humid environment resulted in virtually no pyramiding, However, we still don't know what CAUSES that. @deadheadvet mentions above his belief that temperature is a factor that drier air is a more stable temperature. Yet I personally have grown dozens of tortoises in very controlled stable temperature environments, and only when humidity was increased, and still using the exact temperatures as before, did I see a dramatic decrease in Pyramiding. For decades fast growth was also stated as a factor. Yet again I personally tired that, and did different diet experiments, yet only now see consistent and repeatable results of no pyramiding if humid - despite very fast growth, and different diets.
> 
> deadheadvet's assertion that pyramiding obsession is way too extreme has merit. The overall health is of chief concern. However, Everyone, including deadheadvet take pride in showing off the beauty of the animals we raise. All of us loving to post prideful pictures. That is a great satisfaction of raising tortoises, or any animal successfully. A smooth, non-pyramided shell, I believe, is a very desirable and sought after result. Although in a vast majority of the cases it is cosmetic, I personally see it as a sign of great husbandry. Not to eliminate it, but to minimize it.
> 
> In extreme cases, I believe some may actually be bone problems. But I don't feel we are talking about that here. It's the "cosmetic" deformity of the shell growth I feel is reflected in husbandry techniques.
> 
> So many of us have spent decades experimenting with FACTORS that will contribute to or minimize pyramiding. But what is the CAUSE metabolically? I'm 1proposing that the growth of the scute above the bone is the primary cause of pyramiding. The study Mark! referenced showed that Keratin acts and forms differently in a dry vs moist environment. When dried the fibers actually form differently and become more stiff and resistant to a swelling that occurs with keratin that has not been excessively dried. SO...
> 
> I'm proposing that in dry environments, and very slow growth, the keratin as it forms at the edges of the scutes does so in a fairly uniform manner. But when moderate to fast growth occurs - the faster spread of keratin, exposed to dry conditions, will cause the top to stiffen, and not continue to swell as it continues to form, while the bottom of the new scute keratin continues to grow in a thicker way. This pressure is exerted on the bone below and causes the new scute seam to be lower than the previous seam. In a humid environment, the keratin as it spreads, does so much more evenly, with stiffness and swelling equal top and bottom - and grows straight.
> 
> The more I think this over, the more it makes sense to me. I went back and reread Tom's "the End of Pyramiding" thread. It answers all the issues and questions always posed on this contentious subject. Many always seen to refute the humidity, or say there is no scientific basis - based on the way metabolically bone grows. They're right -its not the bone affected - its the scute affecting the bone! Just a braces can straighten teeth in a jaw or a corrective helmet's gentle pressure can straighten the growth of an infants head. Or they partially accept it and say it is complex and many factors come into play. Yet we see time and again examples of smooth growth with humidity no matter which of the other "contributing factors" are left out in the care of the tortoise. Smooth with inadequate D3, Smooth with no sunlight, smooth with fast growth, food with inadequate calcium and even metabolic bone disease - yet smooth! Yet we never see smooth without humidity somewhere in the equation. It also speaks directly to the issue I have noticed, and Tom and others have mentioned but there was never a WHY... How come tortoises seem to be very resistant to pyramiding once they reach a certain size? Well, it would make sense that as the tortoise ages, it reaches a point where the underlying bone hardens enough to resist the pressure the scute applies.



Hi Mark. I'm not around here much these days and I don't think I have posted anything in months, but I appreciate the time and thought behind this post and wanted to give you a virtual thumbs up enough to actually sign and and type something. Nicely done.


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## bouaboua

My wife need to read this. She spoiled all our torts with too much food because she cannot bear the look on there face every time when they know she is coming near. 

After so many arguments, now we feeding them three times a week.


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## DPtortiose

Markw84 said:


> After posting that, @mark1 posted a reply mentioning what he had learned in a study about the growth of keratin in horns in cattle. He referenced that article - I read it and a the light bulb went on in my head...
> 
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3574435/
> 
> 
> NOW THAT'S INTERESTING AND SHOWS CAUSE FOR PYRAMIDING!!!




Well actually it does not.

First; the research clearly states that it's researching mammalian keratin structures. While it's likely that reptilian structures could work similar, it's still a bit to soon to state that it does. For example; the research you linked to is about α-keratin while the shells of tortoise is made from β-keratin. This difference is important because it's about the structure of the proteins. Which is what the above research is making statements about. While it would be logical that several features of α-keratin would also be found in β-keratin, you can't use this research to draw a definitiveconclusion relevant to β-keratin from. 

Second; The research is focused on how keratin stays hard in wet conditions and explains how one structure (like horns vs finger nails) is more prone to swelling in wetter conditions. The difference between structures (Rhino horn vs whale baleen for example) are quite significant. Again, since no testing was done on a tortoise shell, we don’t know how prone shells are to swell when hydrated.

Further, you assume the lower layer will stay more hydrated then the upper layer without any explanation why this situation would be maintained for long periods of time. If your conclusion is correct we would see that fast growing tortoises kept in periods of dry and wet seasons (like they have in the wild) would be more prone to pyramiding. Since hard flat keratin would cover the swollen hydrated keratin quickly. As far as I’m aware animals kept continuously dry are far more likely to pyramid then animals kept in wet and dry spells.

Are you working from the assumption that the lower keratin layer is hydrated after it's covered? How would this work exactly? To my knowledge the keratin is waterproof, it would be a very poor protective layer if it wasn't (exposing bone to water isn't healthy). So the upper layer would be the one hydrated and swelling, not the lower one. Is the lower keratin layer hydrated through the bone (again a very poor unlikely evolutionary adaption)? This would mean a tortoise would continuously loose water through it shell, which would disastrous for large tortoises in deserts.

Besides, if dry keratin stays flat, wouldn't an tortoise raised in a completely dry environment show less signs of pyramiding? A hydrate keratin layer swells and would therefore cause greater 'bumbs' in the shell.

I think it's far more likely that hydrated keratin is a bit softer and wears down easier as Highfield suggested in a lecture (http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html).


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## Gillian M

A very interesting and important thread.

Thanks a lot for posting it, Mark!


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## mark1

DPtortiose said:


> Well actually it does not.
> 
> First; the research clearly states that it's researching mammalian keratin structures. While it's likely that reptilian structures could work similar, it's still a bit to soon to state that it does. For example; the research you linked to is about α-keratin while the shells of tortoise is made from β-keratin. This difference is important because it's about the structure of the proteins. Which is what the above research is making statements about. While it would be logical that several features of α-keratin would also be found in β-keratin, you can't use this research to draw a definitiveconclusion relevant to β-keratin from.
> 
> Second; The research is focused on how keratin stays hard in wet conditions and explains how one structure (like horns vs finger nails) is more prone to swelling in wetter conditions. The difference between structures (Rhino horn vs whale baleen for example) are quite significant. Again, since no testing was done on a tortoise shell, we don’t know how prone shells are to swell when hydrated.
> 
> Further, you assume the lower layer will stay more hydrated then the upper layer without any explanation why this situation would be maintained for long periods of time. If your conclusion is correct we would see that fast growing tortoises kept in periods of dry and wet seasons (like they have in the wild) would be more prone to pyramiding. Since hard flat keratin would cover the swollen hydrated keratin quickly. As far as I’m aware animals kept continuously dry are far more likely to pyramid then animals kept in wet and dry spells.
> 
> Are you working from the assumption that the lower keratin layer is hydrated after it's covered? How would this work exactly? To my knowledge the keratin is waterproof, it would be a very poor protective layer if it wasn't (exposing bone to water isn't healthy). So the upper layer would be the one hydrated and swelling, not the lower one. Is the lower keratin layer hydrated through the bone (again a very poor unlikely evolutionary adaption)? This would mean a tortoise would continuously loose water through it shell, which would disastrous for large tortoises in deserts.
> 
> Besides, if dry keratin stays flat, wouldn't an tortoise raised in a completely dry environment show less signs of pyramiding? A hydrate keratin layer swells and would therefore cause greater 'bumbs' in the shell.
> 
> I think it's far more likely that hydrated keratin is a bit softer and wears down easier as Highfield suggested in a lecture (http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html).



I think you make some great observations DPtortoise ….. initially I thought the humidity thing was a stretch , and that’s putting it nicely ….. most of these tortoises come from arid regions where the average humidity , for most of the year , is practically negative , they get rain 3 months of the year if their lucky , where I live looks like a swamp compared to much of their natural ranges ……. what causes me to give it more weight at this point is the realization that environmental conditions do effect the properties and actually the composition of keratin . yes there are different types of keratin , I think skin is keratin ? I am assuming all types of keratin are effected by the environment they are exposed too ……. You can correct me if I’m wrong , I picture keratin as finished fiberglass , the matrix being the epoxy and the fiberglass being the fiber ? The conditions alpha keratin are formed in effects the amount of matrix to fiber , I think wet conditions dictate a higher percentage of matrix and dry conditions a higher percentage of fiber , or vice versa ? I’m also going to assume tortoises in these arid regions don’t grow evenly throughout the year ….. they are adept at finding micro-environments within their environment ……. They don’t really grow much when conditions are not favorable , because it’s a energy expenditure …. The protein needed for the matrix part of alpha keratin is in demand , so I understand at times of survival hardship the keratin put down has a higher percentage of fiber to matrix …….. another way in which keratin is effected by environment ……. Another argument I had against the humidity deal was that since the introduction of a high energy foreign food source into Madagascar they are seeing pyramided wild radiated tortoises , it could be it's available when native food sources were not …… I think Mark’s conclusion that growing when they’re not supposed to be growing has a leg to stand on …….as far as pyramiding not being a health issue , i also think in more extreme cases it's an indication something is wrong , and as hobbyist i think the idea is to keep getting better until it's perfect ....jmo


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## DPtortiose

To give some context; as most people probably know we all exist out of cells. Every living creature is a very large collection of (specialized) cells working in unison. So cells need to know what itsneighbor is doing and make sure it stays next to its neighbor. Cells do this by building an extra cellular matrix (or ECM). This matrix allows cells to stick together, communicate which each other and build structures like bone, cartilageor a tortoise shell.

These complex structures are made from strands of protein, the building blocks of our body. Biologist call these strands filaments. Keratin is one of those building proteins (or filaments) our cells can produce. If your a mammal (like us), you can only produce a single type of keratin (alpha). Reptiles (which includes birds as well but that's another discussion) however can produce two types of keratin (Alpha and Beta). Alpha and beta keratin are made from the same materials, but are different in structure. I think (not 100% sure) that α-keratin is shaped like a helix, while β-keratin is twisted. This structures makes β-keratin a bit more though, since strands can attach to each other more easily.

The interesting part is that while keratin remains hard in water, the protein strands it’s made from become flexible.The research suggests that the strands bind with the matrix and that’s why the keratin keeps it's shape and hardness.

Since α-keratin and β-keratin are differently shaped and form bonds differently, you can't assume that these result are as relevant to β-keratin (which make up the shell). Though I have read that T. hermanni does produce a bit of α-keratin around hinge areas in hibernation periods. But these are replaced by β-keratin cells in spring. 'Normal tortoise skin' is made from α-keratin.

In any case the only thing I'm sure about is that humidity helps prevent pyramiding, why it does this and if it is the correct method to combat pyramiding is disputable. Though I do think keeping certain species outside is also an important aspect for smooth growth.


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## Tom

DPtortiose said:


> Though I do think keeping certain species outside is also an important aspect for smooth growth.



Which species? And in which climate? Arizona? Southern CA? Seattle? NYC? Southern Florida?

What factors that occur outside, but not inside, do you think are controlling aspects of smooth growth?


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## Yvonne G

Tom said:


> Which species? And in which climate? Arizona? Southern CA? Seattle? NYC? Southern Florida?
> 
> What factors that occur outside, but not inside, do you think are controlling aspects of smooth growth?



I've always wondered how people in Arizona, who don't know about moisture and pyramiding, manage to grow smooth sulcatas in that hot, dry climate.


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## Tom

Yvonne G said:


> I've always wondered how people in Arizona, who don't know about moisture and pyramiding, manage to grow smooth sulcatas in that hot, dry climate.



Me too. I know that most of them burrow to escape the 100+ temps they have there for 9 or 10 months of every year and I think that is a big contributing factor. Many people also use no heat anytime of the year and the tortoise do a sort of "artificial climate induced hibernation" where they are not active and don't eat for a few weeks or months every year. I'm sure some die from this, but it sure seems like most of them survive it.


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## Markw84

DPtortiose said:


> Well actually it does not.
> 
> First; the research clearly states that it's researching mammalian keratin structures. While it's likely that reptilian structures could work similar, it's still a bit to soon to state that it does. For example; the research you linked to is about α-keratin while the shells of tortoise is made from β-keratin. This difference is important because it's about the structure of the proteins. Which is what the above research is making statements about. While it would be logical that several features of α-keratin would also be found in β-keratin, you can't use this research to draw a definitiveconclusion relevant to β-keratin from.
> 
> Second; The research is focused on how keratin stays hard in wet conditions and explains how one structure (like horns vs finger nails) is more prone to swelling in wetter conditions. The difference between structures (Rhino horn vs whale baleen for example) are quite significant. Again, since no testing was done on a tortoise shell, we don’t know how prone shells are to swell when hydrated.
> 
> Further, you assume the lower layer will stay more hydrated then the upper layer without any explanation why this situation would be maintained for long periods of time. If your conclusion is correct we would see that fast growing tortoises kept in periods of dry and wet seasons (like they have in the wild) would be more prone to pyramiding. Since hard flat keratin would cover the swollen hydrated keratin quickly. As far as I’m aware animals kept continuously dry are far more likely to pyramid then animals kept in wet and dry spells.
> 
> Are you working from the assumption that the lower keratin layer is hydrated after it's covered? How would this work exactly? To my knowledge the keratin is waterproof, it would be a very poor protective layer if it wasn't (exposing bone to water isn't healthy). So the upper layer would be the one hydrated and swelling, not the lower one. Is the lower keratin layer hydrated through the bone (again a very poor unlikely evolutionary adaption)? This would mean a tortoise would continuously loose water through it shell, which would disastrous for large tortoises in deserts.
> 
> Besides, if dry keratin stays flat, wouldn't an tortoise raised in a completely dry environment show less signs of pyramiding? A hydrate keratin layer swells and would therefore cause greater 'bumbs' in the shell.
> 
> I think it's far more likely that hydrated keratin is a bit softer and wears down easier as Highfield suggested in a lecture (http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html).


Thanks for the food for thought, but to say the study I quoted was used to draw a definitive conclusion is not the case at all. This study got me thinking about the POSSIBILITIES of what and how keratin is being formed and since moisture is something shown there to effect stiffness and swelling, that could very well translate into keratin in general. This piece of the puzzle makes perfect sense to show how pyramiding works, and is reasonable to expect here. It was the smallest of pieces but the missing link I was looking for. I came to the conclusion of the scute forming the pyramid long ago, I just couldn't find any logical way it could only be happening, and then NOT HAPPENING in the instances so many keepers found working.

Here is how I came to this conclusion:

I have for many years now, believed that pyramiding is a scute issued, not a bone issue. People always point to UVB, calcium, exercise, diet, etc. yet to me if it were a bone problem why wouldn't it follow the pattern of the bones of the shell? We all know the bones are a completely different pattern, and as they grow and expand the shell, the bone seams are completely different places than the scute seams. If the bone is what is pyramiding, wouldn't that follow the bone pattern? While if the scute were the causative agent, we should see the pyramiding following the scute pattern - and that is exactly what you see. The scute is affecting the bone. The bone isn't growing in a fashion totally contrary to its seam and plate pattern and the scutes simply are covering it.

So my question was always how could the scute cause the bone to pyramid? We know we certainly can cause bone to reshape all the time in humans. Gentle pressure consistent over an extended period causes bone to reshape. They did it with my grandson's head to round it out with a contouring helmet prescribed. We do it with teeth. An African tribe used to do it with the skulls of their women. So for some years now I was sure the pyramiding was being driven by the scute, but HOW? And how come in the past 7 years or so we pretty much have shown it only does not happen when some type of hydration is present? Of all the variables argued - fast growth, protein, sunlight, exercise, calcium, D3, night cooling, and hydration - we see smooth tortoises with plenty of examples with one or many of all those variables missing - except one. We never see smooth tortoises without hydration. In captivity is the examples I look at since we can only theorize about those elements in their natural environment being present and to what degree. And then we have some cases, like the heat study posted here a few months ago, and I started this response on that thread. That study does show significantly reduced pyramiding with nighttime cooling and slower growth. Not just slower pyramiding because they were growing slower, but proportionately significantly less pyramiding when adjusting for the size. And without the humidity we have found works. How can we account for that along with what I just stated two sentences ago??

Then I come to looking at the formation of the scute itself. If we take one off a tortoise shell, we do see a uniform thickness of the scute across its width. It does not seem to add any additional volume or height as the tortoise grows once it is laid down. In fact it can often be worn off and will not grow back in the center of scutes on older tortoises. So all the active laying down of keratin happens at the edges. New keratin is ONLY formed along the seams when the tortoise is actively growing. It does not continue to add along the entire bottom of the scute and develop thicker centers like an aquatic turtle would if it didn't shed. No, if you look at scutes you peel off a tortoise shell, the scute is an even thickness, and if pyramided - the bone is shaped into the pyramid shape exactly under and following the shape the scute "cap" created. When tortoises are growing fast we even see the obvious growth lines between the scutes, and can see where it appears the keratin has not yet caught up to the new bone growth. As I constantly soaked tortoises over the year, I watched growth separate the scutes, and the scutes then fill in the gaps with their new growth. With leopards its fun to watch what new patterns come with this new growth.

Now we fast forward to my new Burmese group. I got them just after I read the study posted about nighttime high temps causing pyramiding. I however, was firmly committed to growing these very rare tortoises the best I knew how. And thanks to a lot I learned and copied from @Tom that meant I was going to "monsoon" them. Now these tortoises are coming from one of the most respected and awarded chelonian centers in the world. With veterinarians on staff, they have the best of care. The Managing director of the facility was voted by his peers the Reptile Vet of the year in 2009, he served as president of the Association of Reptile and Amphibians. So they know what they are doing. But I found they still adhered to and believe in "slow growing" their Burmese Stars. Kept in lower humidity with nighttime temp drops, and fed a carefully controlled diet to ensure more "natural" growth. I on the other hand, had already decided and was committed to the monsoon approach. When I got them I was a bit disappointed to see how pyramided and small they were! 4 were 5 years old, and one was 7 years old. They averaged 5.3" SCL and 454.2 grams. I felt this was a perfect chance to see the difference the monsoon method could make.

As I watched them grow, and inspected them (I know - watching grass grow) every day with their soak, it became apparent very quickly I was kicking their metabolism into full gear. The group averaged adding 71 grams the first two weeks. OK, mostly hydration probably. The first of the next month on measurement day, they were now at an additional 97 g added average in just that month. As of the 1st of July, they now have added an average of .966 inches SCL, and 301.8 grams. Since they came with complete records and history, I could compare results in the two methods. For example, Betelgeuse is the smallest male. I got him at 346 g. The 12 months prior to my getting him, he had gained a total of 20 grams in weight - TOTAL. In the 3 1/2 months since, he has gained 271 grams. Sirius, the largest male, came to me at 7 yrs old and 548 grams. His previous 12 months saw a 119 g weight gain. In the 3 1/2 months since - he has gained 407 grams. So I had convinced them the monsoons had finally come! But was the fast growth and constant high heat and humidity, only contributing to pyramiding that was already so well established?

What really started my mind working - again - on pyramiding and the scutes, was watching them grow. I began to see a different look to the seams as the scutes grew, than I was used to seeing for so many years. If you look back at the picture of one of my females, Vega, above in post #1, you can see the new growth is coming in completely smooth, but - I was seeing more of a hump, or swelling upward to the new growth than I had seen before. I thought maybe the keratin layer was just being laid down a bit thicker than I was used to.

NOW we go to the study, that may or may not relate to tortoises on keratin and moisture. What IF scute keratin also becomes stiffer and resistant to initial swelling in dry conditions just as the horn keratin does? Is what I am seeing on Vega's seams the natural growth and initial swelling of new keratin vs what would happen if the new keratin dried to quickly on top? That could force the top to become stiffer, and the continued growth of new keratin and/or swelling forced to be more downward, while to top is comparatively more rigid? I could see something like this happening:




The first case would be what I was seeing with Vega. Normal fast scute growth with the perceptible "swelling" look to new growth.
The second would be fast growth where the condition are drying. The top of the new keratin does not swell or fill in as much as it dries quicker and becomes stiffer and more resistant. This forces the swelling / or addition of keratin to occur mostly in a downward direction. Every successive growth ring would continue to press down on the bone creating a bigger, and bigger valley between the scutes - pyramiding.
The third would be a slower growing tortoise like in the temperature experiment. There would not be enough of the exposed new growth as compared to relative scute height to affect it as much.

Now, I am not saying I now know the keratin in the scute works this way. That would have to be the scientists with their million dollar labs looking at the cellular growth and triple helix structures in the keratin to see if indeed tortoise scute keratin works this way. What I am saying, is this is more than simply possible. There is cause to believe it could work this way too. But most importantly THIS MODEL, hypothesis, fits every scenario I, and so many others have debated, and wondered about. It fits perfectly. And I have never seen any other explanation of the workings of pyramiding, showing how it happens.

So, @DPtortiose I do believe this study shows a cause for pyramiding. Or should I say, shows something that very well could be the cause. You yourself say its likely reptilian keratin works similarly. In all my studies, that's how science works. Most everything in our world is based on theory. - Based upon experience and study, and evidence at hand, you postulate a theory. That working theory is then poked at and tested, and perhaps the scientists can find the interest, and money and time to devote to our chelonians and see what the cellular mechanism at work really is.

For me - at least I have a working theory now.


----------



## Yvonne G

I thought these pictures might be beneficial to the thread. First the non-pyramided carapace:






Then the carapace with pyramids:






You can see that the underlying bone does indeed grow upwards, however, not nearly as bad as the keratin.

http://startortoises.net/pyramiding.html


----------



## DPtortiose

Tom said:


> Which species? And in which climate? Arizona? Southern CA? Seattle? NYC? Southern Florida?
> 
> What factors that occur outside, but not inside, do you think are controlling aspects of smooth growth?



I'm not sure the rate of growth is affected. It's the erosion on the shell I'm revering too. The elements as the wind, rain and the sun, but also burrowing, walking underneath vegetation, probably the copious amount of bacteria and fungi living on the shell. Don't get me wrong, I know perfectly well that indoor animals experience some of these conditions as well, but life outside is bit more variable (perhaps harsher). Since keratin productions is continuouslythroughout their life, it’s logical that it suppose to wear down. Since outside conditions tend to be less stable with more extreme weather conditions (in certain climates), it stands to reason that an shell would wear down more.

I wasn't referring to a specific species in a specific location, more a suitable species in suitable location. Though I suppose some climates have higher humidity and it's easier to maintain an higher humidity in an outdoor enclosure.


----------



## Markw84

I'm not an xray technician, but the section defined in red marks looks like porus bone, not scute. If you look at some of the other photos and info referenced on that website, the marked area is bone. The scute the darker thin layer on top.

I also believe it is not growing up. The edges are growing down. Put the profile of a pyramided tortoise against a profile of one not pyramided. The "normal profile" matches the Pyramided one from the TOP of the pyramids not the valleys.


----------



## Tom

Markw84 said:


> I also believe it is not growing up. The edges are growing down. Put the profile of a pyramided tortoise against a profile of one not pyramided. The "normal profile" matches the Pyramided one from the TOP of the pyramids not the valleys.



I've noticed this too. I agree.


----------



## Yvonne G

Markw84 said:


> I'm not an xray technician, but the section defined in red marks looks like porus bone, not scute. If you look at some of the other photos and info referenced on that website, the marked area is bone. The scute the darker thin layer on top.
> 
> I also believe it is not growing up. The edges are growing down. Put the profile of a pyramided tortoise against a profile of one not pyramided. The "normal profile" matches the Pyramided one from the TOP of the pyramids not the valleys.



Yes, I misspoke. The section between the ends of the red lines is the bone, so yes, the bone is also pyramided. 

You are, of course, correct in saying the new growth is growing down and not up. The existing part at the top of the pyramid is not growing. The new growth is at the bottom of the pyramid, growing down and pushing the old growth up.


----------



## DPtortiose

Markw84 said:


> Then I come to looking at the formation of the scute itself. If we take one off a tortoise shell, we do see a uniform thickness of the scute across its width. It does not seem to add any additional volume or height as the tortoise grows once it is laid down. In fact it can often be worn off and will not grow back in the center of scutes on older tortoises. So all the active laying down of keratin happens at the edges. New keratin is ONLY formed along the seams when the tortoise is actively growing. It does not continue to add along the entire bottom of the scute and develop thicker centers like an aquatic turtle would if it didn't shed. No, if you look at scutes you peel off a tortoise shell, the scute is an even thickness, and if pyramided - the bone is shaped into the pyramid shape exactly under and following the shape the scute "cap" created. When tortoises are growing fast we even see the obvious growth lines between the scutes, and can see where it appears the keratin has not yet caught up to the new bone growth. As I constantly soaked tortoises over the year, I watched growth separate the scutes, and the scutes then fill in the gaps with their new growth. With leopards its fun to watch what new patterns come with this new growth.



This not true, I was wondering how and where scutes grow as well. Keratin growth is added near the 'hinges' of a scute, but there is keratin growth in the center of a scute as well. An abstract of the article that stated this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15880409



Markw84 said:


> NOW we go to the study, that may or may not relate to tortoises on keratin and moisture. What IF scute keratin also becomes stiffer and resistant to initial swelling in dry conditions just as the horn keratin does? Is what I am seeing on Vega's seams the natural growth and initial swelling of new keratin vs what would happen if the new keratin dried to quickly on top? That could force the top to become stiffer, and the continued growth of new keratin and/or swelling forced to be more downward, while to top is comparatively more rigid? I could see something like this happening:
> 
> The first case would be what I was seeing with Vega. Normal fast scute growth with the perceptible "swelling" look to new growth.
> 
> The second would be fast growth where the condition are drying. The top of the new keratin does not swell or fill in as much as it dries quicker and becomes stiffer and more resistant. This forces the swelling / or addition of keratin to occur mostly in a downward direction. Every successive growth ring would continue to press down on the bone creating a bigger, and bigger valley between the scutes - pyramiding.
> 
> The third would be a slower growing tortoise like in the temperature experiment. There would not be enough of the exposed new growth as compared to relative scute height to affect it as much.



I think it's a interesting theory, but there are several things that don't quite 'fit'. 

There is the assumption that the swelling is irreversible and continuously (it has to be for it to push the bone down), while the report suggest otherwise. The process of swelling seems reversible and becomes less severe when it dries out. The water messes with the structure of the filaments, but the filaments seem perfectly able to return to their normal state when dry again. We would have serious problems with our nails if this wasn't the case. Besides, the filaments form bonds with the matrix as it 'dries' further reducing the swelling when it does get wet again.

I like the theory that the keratin pushes the bone down. But bone has a higher density then keratin (can also be seen on the x-ray, bone is way brighter then the keratin), so it's unlikely that the bone is pushed down instead of the upper layer. Besides keratin is more flexibility then bone, it's far more likely that the top layer bends a bit rather then the bone. The amount of swelling also seems hardly enough to actually push the bone down.

The research state that the largest increase in transverse swelling (rhinohorn) was only 1.5%. Meaning if the keratin layer of a hatching is a millimeter thick, it would expand with 0.015 millimeter (or 0,00059 inch). I sincerely doubt this amount of swelling could inflict the pyramiding already seen in some youngsters.



Markw84 said:


> So, @DPtortiose I do believe this study shows a cause for pyramiding. Or should I say, shows something that very well could be the cause. You yourself say its likely reptilian keratin works similarly. In all my studies, that's how science works. Most everything in our world is based on theory. - Based upon experience and study, and evidence at hand, you postulate a theory. That working theory is then poked at and tested, and perhaps the scientists can find the interest, and money and time to devote to our chelonians and see what the cellular mechanism at work really is.
> 
> For me - at least I have a working theory now.



I think it might be good starting point, but do not underestimate the difference of the structure. For example, take the polysaccharide cellulose. It's indigestible because it's structured as β-sheet. While a polysaccharide with an α-structure can be broken down as glucose. It's the difference between dietary fiber and 'normal' food.

On a side note, Tom had some spot on criticism on the study on the effects of an night time drop.


----------



## Anyfoot

@Tom. Couple of questions.

When you have a night time low, what heating method do you use? 

I've read before you saying that hatchlings during monsoon season bathe in puddles. Do you know this for a fact or is it an educated assumption because of the torrential downpour?


----------



## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> @Tom. Couple of questions.
> 
> When you have a night time low, what heating method do you use?
> 
> I've read before you saying that hatchlings during monsoon season bathe in puddles. Do you know this for a fact or is it an educated assumption because of the torrential downpour?



Night time heating varies with the season and enclosure. I use CHEs, RHPs, and oil filled radiant heaters, all controlled by thermostats.

The puddle assertion is an educated guess based on several things. I have never read anything about sulcata babies in the wild. The man who would know better than any other is Tomas Diagne. One of his research students saw one baby, and the next day Tomas returned to that spot and saw three babies in one day. He had never seen one before this, and has not seen one since, unless something has changed since I last spoke with him. He suspects these babies were from his reintroduced tortoises, but could not verify. Theses 4 babies are the only ones I have ever heard about in the wild and Tomas found the near a marsh. Sulcatas are extinct in several countries, near extinct in several others, and we know almost nothing about their wild lives. Most of what I know is from Tomas and the book he helped Bernard DeVoux write. It went out of print more than 10 years ago. He is supposed to have another book coming out, but nothing yet...


----------



## Markw84

DPtortiose said:


> This not true, I was wondering how and where scutes grow as well. Keratin growth is added near the 'hinges' of a scute, but there is keratin growth in the center of a scute as well. An abstract of the article that stated this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15880409
> .


Not sure what you read here, but I read it differently

"_Beta-cells form a new thick corneous layer around the hinge regions, which constitute the growing rings of scutes. Beta-keratin cells produced in more central parts of scutes maintain a homogeneous thickness of the corneous layer along the whole scute surface." 
_
Specifically stating the cells that were produced in the central parts of the scute retain a homogeneous thickness along the whole scute surface. So no new cells are adding - only growth along the "hinges" as they call it. Then goes on to say how with aquatic turtles there is growth along the whole scute with cells added.



DPtortiose said:


> I think it's a interesting theory, but there are several things that don't quite 'fit'.
> 
> There is the assumption that the swelling is irreversible and continuously (it has to be for it to push the bone down), while the report suggest otherwise. The process of swelling seems reversible and becomes less severe when it dries out. The water messes with the structure of the filaments, but the filaments seem perfectly able to return to their normal state when dry again. We would have serious problems with our nails if this wasn't the case. Besides, the filaments form bonds with the matrix as it 'dries' further reducing the swelling when it does get wet again.
> 
> I like the theory that the keratin pushes the bone down. But bone has a higher density then keratin (can also be seen on the x-ray, bone is way brighter then the keratin), so it's unlikely that the bone is pushed down instead of the upper layer. Besides keratin is more flexibility then bone, it's far more likely that the top layer bends a bit rather then the bone. The amount of swelling also seems hardly enough to actually push the bone down.
> 
> The research state that the largest increase in transverse swelling (rhinohorn) was only 1.5%. Meaning if the keratin layer of a hatching is a millimeter thick, it would expand with 0.015 millimeter (or 0,00059 inch). I sincerely doubt this amount of swelling could inflict the pyramiding already seen in some youngsters.
> .



I am not assuming the 'swelling' is irreversible. I noted two things had been found. Hydration swells keratin. Drying changed the helix strand structure making it stiffer than keratin that had not been dried out. One or both of these factors could be at work to lesser or greater degrees here. Or similar factors this opens up the possibilities for. And we do have extreme tendency for our nails to curl downward if left to grow. Despite the adaptation we have developed to have the bulk of the keratin growth of our nails done under the protective cuticle where both sides of the nail are in contact with moist tissue.

By personal experience I can tell you it takes very little pressure, just consistent pressure, to change bone growth. The helmet my grandson wore had only foam pressing against his head in the proper areas. Foam much softer and more pliable than bone, and soft enough not to interfere with blood flow to that part of the scalp. Yet the scull was reshaped in a few months. Even shed scutes I get from my aquatic turtles, which are much thinner than the full scutes of tortoises I have removed, have enough stiffness and "spring" to their shape to apply the pressure I would envision it would take. And that goes with younger tortoises being most susceptible, while once to a certain size, many tortoises seem to have a much more resistant bone structure developed and simply resist further pyramiding.

And I don't believe it would be identical scenarios and swelling is not what I would look for if I were the researcher with the equipment. I would look for a modification of the stiffness of the keratin layer - drying on top - that reduces the additional adding of keratin in that direction and forces the additional keratin growth downward.

and on your side note - I agree with Tom's comments about the experiment and that it was extremely flawed. However, if you read the data, and even look at the pictures, they really did get a significant reduction in pyramiding beyond any size differential. That is why I believe we must account in any theory for the ability to reduce pyramiding with slowing growth. My hypothesis is slow growth with minimal new keratin exposed at the same time reduces this effect, especially if the diet still has an adequate amount of protein - the most necessary building block for keratin.

Now I am not promoting slow growth at all. I am just trying to account for the question of why the smooth growth when presumably wild tortoises go through periods of dry, yet little or no growth, and the experiment that partially mimicked that. But why would we want to purposely starve a tortoise if we now see they can thrive and grow "normally" in conditions we understand better.


----------



## Tom

Mark,

There is a lot of good reading in this thread. Can you break down the high points in layman's terms? Something like my: "Pyramiding is _caused_ by growth in conditions that are too dry."

In other words, how would you explain this in a few short sentences to a noob that is not going to read all of this?


----------



## Anyfoot

Tom, reason I asked is because, you have obviously thought every aspect through, I.e diet(you don't use store bought). Heat(highs and lows,methods) hydration etc etc. 
You said you can't understand why some of your hatchlings show minor pyramiding and some don't. The only thing I can think of that I imagine is incorrect(or could be) is the actual hydration method. I don't think any of us really know how a juvenile lives for certain in the wild(talking sullies here). If they hatch out in the wet season then scurry for cover in foliage growth where they probably spend most of the Time hidden until large enough to explore the big world, probably pop out occasionally but most of the time hidden. 
So the soaking method is basically hydrating from below. If they are hidden in monsoon season, would it be possible they get hydration from above. I.e the rain. 
Are you or could you be in a position to rear one hatchling and instead of 20min soaks give it maybe 2hr showers. Fake rain, no hides to act as an umbrella other than natural foliage(so it has to endure the rainfsll). 
2 differences I can think of are, maybe rainfall doesn't empty the gut load like a soak. Would this naturally maintain a steadier growth rate? Also I would imagine that natural elements like wind and rain fall would smooth off the carapace anyway. To imitate rainfall on the carapace may smooth it off, yes it's only the cosmetic side of things and not connected to bone and keratin ratio growth. 
Could this be the missing piece of the jigsaw?


----------



## DPtortiose

Markw84 said:


> Not sure what you read here, but I read it differently
> 
> "Beta-cells form a new thick corneous layer around the hinge regions, which constitute the growing rings of scutes. Beta-keratin cells produced in more central parts of scutes maintain a homogeneous thickness of the corneous layer along the whole scute surface."
> 
> Specifically stating the cells that were produced in the central parts of the scute retain a homogeneous thickness along the whole scute surface. So no new cells are adding - only growth along the "hinges" as they call it. Then goes on to say how with aquatic turtles there is growth along the whole scute with cells added.



That's because I read the very next sentence as well: "Beta-keratin cells produced in more central parts of scutes maintain a homogeneous thickness of the corneous layer along the whole scute surface."



Markw84 said:


> I am not assuming the 'swelling' is irreversible. I noted two things had been found. Hydration swells keratin. Drying changed the helix strand structure making it stiffer than keratin that had not been dried out.



Not quite, the structure form cross-bonds with the matrix. That's what's allows it to remain stiff when hydrated. These bonds are formed when the keratin is dried by the air, so when the growth is complete it's as structure sound as it can be (when it’s dry). According to your hypothesis a dry spell should fix the problem quite easily should the swelling be not irreversible. Since the pressure wouldn’t be continously as the keratin dries.

But again, if your hypothesis is correct, the most logical solution would be to remove hydration all together so everything grows nice and flat. However we seen that animals kept to dry are very prone to pyramiding. 



Markw84 said:


> One or both of these factors could be at work to lesser or greater degrees here. Or similar factors this opens up the possibilities for. And we do have extreme tendency for our nails to curl downward if left to grow. Despite the adaptation we have developed to have the bulk of the keratin growth of our nails done under the protective cuticle where both sides of the nail are in contact with moist tissue.
> By personal experience I can tell you it takes very little pressure, just consistent pressure, to change bone growth. The helmet my grandson wore had only foam pressing against his head in the proper areas. Foam much softer and more pliable than bone, and soft enough not to interfere with blood flow to that part of the scalp. Yet the scull was reshaped in a few months. Even shed scutes I get from my aquatic turtles, which are much thinner than the full scutes of tortoises I have removed, have enough stiffness and "spring" to their shape to apply the pressure I would envision it would take. And that goes with younger tortoises being most susceptible, while once to a certain size, many tortoises seem to have a much more resistant bone structure developed and simply resist further pyramiding.
> 
> And I don't believe it would be identical scenarios and swelling is not what I would look for if I were the researcher with the equipment. I would look for a modification of the stiffness of the keratin layer - drying on top - that reduces the additional adding of keratin in that direction and forces the additional keratin growth downward.



Interesting, you probably have a good point concerningcontinuous pressure and bone growth. But again, as the keratin dries the pressure is relieved. So the stress on the bone would not be continuous.

The x-ray from Yvonne also doesn’t show continuous growth of keratin down worth however. They show a pretty evenly thick layer across the shells. Abnormal growth is only observed in the bone. If your theory was correct, we would see two point of abnormal growth; one near the edges of the scutes (made from keratin that grows down into the bone ) and one in the middle of scute made from bone. Only the thickening of the bone is visible though.



Markw84 said:


> and on your side note - I agree with Tom's comments about the experiment and that it was extremely flawed. However, if you read the data, and even look at the pictures, they really did get a significant reduction in pyramiding beyond any size differential. That is why I believe we must account in any theory for the ability to reduce pyramiding with slowing growth. My hypothesis is slow growth with minimal new keratin exposed at the same time reduces this effect, especially if the diet still has an adequate amount of protein - the most necessary building block for keratin.



As far as I'm aware higher keratin synthesis isn't directly linked to an abundancy of protein to be honest. It's a very common protein and we'd all be in great trouble if eating to many proteins would lead to an increased production. Other way around as well, there are species that have a very low intake of protein, but are perfectly able to maintain a thick fur (hair is made for keratin as well)



Markw84 said:


> Now I am not promoting slow growth at all. I am just trying to account for the question of why the smooth growth when presumably wild tortoises go through periods of dry, yet little or no growth, and the experiment that partially mimicked that. But why would we want to purposely starve a tortoise if we now see they can thrive and grow "normally" in conditions we understand better.



I agree. +1


----------



## Markw84

Tom said:


> Mark,
> 
> There is a lot of good reading in this thread. Can you break down the high points in layman's terms? Something like my: "Pyramiding is _caused_ by growth in conditions that are too dry."
> 
> In other words, how would you explain this in a few short sentences to a noob that is not going to read all of this?


I think that your statement you have always maintained is a great one. I started this thread with a different definition of "CAUSE". I wanted to explore the physiological mechanism that is making a shell pyramid. Your statement is great and fits what most everyone is after =" what are the environmental factors I can control that cause pyramiding?"

so in that context: Your statement is spot on:

Pyramiding is caused by GROWTH in conditions that are too dry. They can survive periods of minimal to no growth and not pyramid, but when you start them GROWING, if dry - they will pyramid.


----------



## Tom

New experiment proposal: Take some hatchlings and do the unlimited food/monsoon thing for four months. Then go 8 months hot and dry, but just enough food to maintain weight and not gain much. 4 months "on", 8 months "off". Then repeat.

Any takers?


----------



## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> Tom, reason I asked is because, you have obviously thought every aspect through, I.e diet(you don't use store bought). Heat(highs and lows,methods) hydration etc etc.
> You said you can't understand why some of your hatchlings show minor pyramiding and some don't. The only thing I can think of that I imagine is incorrect(or could be) is the actual hydration method. I don't think any of us really know how a juvenile lives for certain in the wild(talking sullies here). If they hatch out in the wet season then scurry for cover in foliage growth where they probably spend most of the Time hidden until large enough to explore the big world, probably pop out occasionally but most of the time hidden.
> So the soaking method is basically hydrating from below. If they are hidden in monsoon season, would it be possible they get hydration from above. I.e the rain.
> Are you or could you be in a position to rear one hatchling and instead of 20min soaks give it maybe 2hr showers. Fake rain, no hides to act as an umbrella other than natural foliage(so it has to endure the rainfsll).
> 2 differences I can think of are, maybe rainfall doesn't empty the gut load like a soak. Would this naturally maintain a steadier growth rate? Also I would imagine that natural elements like wind and rain fall would smooth off the carapace anyway. To imitate rainfall on the carapace may smooth it off, yes it's only the cosmetic side of things and not connected to bone and keratin ratio growth.
> Could this be the missing piece of the jigsaw?



What weather and abrasion theories fail to account for is that pyramiding is bone malformation. It would take an awful lot of rain and wind to abraid pyramided bone enough to smooth out a tortoise's carapace.

Keeping them in a rain chamber would be an interesting experiment. 

If you run a sprinkler over a bushy area, do you not get puddles after a while?


----------



## Anyfoot

Tom said:


> What weather and abrasion theories fail to account for is that pyramiding is bone malformation. It would take an awful lot of rain and wind to abraid pyramided bone enough to smooth out a tortoise's carapace.
> 
> Keeping them in a rain chamber would be an interesting experiment.
> 
> If you run a sprinkler over a bushy area, do you not get puddles after a while?


 So your saying, even very minimal pyramiding is bone structure and not the keratin not reaching scute boarders due to an inbalance of growth rate and hydration.

Puddles would depend on how well the drainage of the soil would be, or if they are sat on foliage or bark maybe. 
When It rains in my garden and boy does it rain here, I don't get puddles under the bushes, even on the flat areas, because of grass and weeds. Where it's just mud maybe. 
I'll bet not every area that sullies live in is flat, if that's correct what happens to the hatchlings that live on an slight incline with no puddles? 
I'm tempted to set a viv up with mesh bottom and drainage system into a tank below recycling a mini rain system. But you would see results far quicker with sullies and make a better build and you have babies and have a comparison to one that is soaked.


----------



## mctlong

Tom said:


> New experiment proposal: Take some hatchlings and do the unlimited food/monsoon thing for four months. Then go 8 months hot and dry, but just enough food to maintain weight and not gain much. 4 months "on", 8 months "off". Then repeat.
> 
> Any takers?



If there was only a member who breeds sullies and has a giant ranch wheras to conduct this experiment..... hmmmmm.

I nominate you Tom.


----------



## wellington

bouaboua said:


> My wife need to read this. She spoiled all our torts with too much food because she cannot bear the look on there face every time when they know she is coming near.
> 
> After so many arguments, now we feeding them three times a week.


I didn't really get that from this thread. I took it that fast growth is fine, as long as you have the high humidity. Cutting their food down doesn't prevent pyramiding. Lack of high humidity causes pyramiding. @Markw84 am I misunderstanding or is Steven or a little of both?


----------



## Markw84

wellington said:


> I didn't really get that from this thread. I took it that fast growth is fine, as long as you have the high humidity. Cutting their food down doesn't prevent pyramiding. Lack of high humidity causes pyramiding. @Markw84 am I misunderstanding or is Steven or a little of both?


Yes. Exactly. I'm feeding all they want and getting very fast growth. The point is exactly that the high humidity must be there too.


----------



## Tom

mctlong said:


> If there was only a member who breeds sullies and has a giant ranch wheras to conduct this experiment..... hmmmmm.
> 
> I nominate you Tom.



HA! Thanks…

What I'd really like to do is go to The Sahel for about 2 years with a remote probed thermometer and hygrometer and just hang out recording temps all over sulcata land. I bought lotto tickets. It could happen...


----------



## BrianWI

Which grows first, the keratin or the bone?


----------



## Anyfoot

In the 2 x-rays that Yvonne posted, is there any MBD going on in the 2nd x-ray? 
If yes
Is it possible to have a pyramided tort that has zero amount of MBD?


----------



## Markw84

BrianWI said:


> Which grows first, the keratin or the bone?


Based upon observation - we see the bone plates grow and expand the shell, leaving gaps in the scutes. Many have posted on the forum asking about the strange "white lines" and that they are softer, and seem more sensitive to the tortoise. They are seeing these growth seams. So it appears the bones grows the shell and the Scutes follow to fill in the seams.



Anyfoot said:


> In the 2 x-rays that Yvonne posted, is there any MBD going on in the 2nd x-ray?
> If yes
> Is it possible to have a pyramided tort that has zero amount of MBD?


I believe the tortoises Tom and I (and others) raised between 1990 and 2008 are great examples of pyramided tortoises with absolutely no metabolic bone disease.

If you look at the x-rays @Yvonne G posted earlier and superimpose the pyramided one over the smooth, you can see the bone itself is fine, just distorted to the shape of the pyramided scute. It's hard to see as the pictures she posted are of a different size tortoise and different part of the tortoise, plus the x-rays are of a different filter strength with one showing more contrast to where you cannot make out the keratin scute on top of the bone of the smooth tortoise. You can see it clearly on the pyramided tortoise and see the keratin does not thicken to produce the "hump" of the pyramid, but the bone deforms and reshapes. I adjusted them based upon scute distance and placement and did the best I could quickly:


----------



## Markw84

Tom said:


> New experiment proposal: Take some hatchlings and do the unlimited food/monsoon thing for four months. Then go 8 months hot and dry, but just enough food to maintain weight and not gain much. 4 months "on", 8 months "off". Then repeat.
> 
> Any takers?


That would be a good experiment, but I think perhaps in the wild they are aestivating a good portion of that time - NO food and water. Like hibernating / brumating a tortoise through the winter. To keep a sulcata / leopard / star healthy, warm, yet feed only enough to stop growth for 8 months, is an exercise I wouldn't feel comfortable with.


----------



## Markw84

DPtortiose said:


> That's because I read the very next sentence as well: "Beta-keratin cells produced in more central parts of scutes maintain a homogeneous thickness of the corneous layer along the whole scute surface."


It is exactly that next sentence I am talking about. And that is their point of these two sentences: They say cells are only ADDED (new growth) "form a new thick corneous layer around the hinges" Yet "cells produced in more central parts" (old growth) "maintain a homogeneous thickness... along the whole scute surface." If that weren't their point, how can you have NEW cells added along the more central parts and still maintain a homogeneous thickness. And especially with them juxtapositioning this statement to contrast and make their point of differentiation in their next statement - that Aquatic turtles add cells along the entire scute.

I can't follow your reasoning with the rest of your comments about stiffening / swelling. I certainly do not in my proposal suggest a scute, once formed, will straighten out, or curl, or reform in any way with humidity or dryness. I am proposing that IN THE FORMATIVE STAGES as the new keratin is expanding and filling in the seams between the scutes, the bottom of the NEW kerating is against moist tissue / bone, while the top is exposed to environmental conditions. Just like our fingernail (you brought up earlier), most hard keratin structures in nature seem to have developed a way of developing and laying down the NEW portion protected by contact with moist tissue on all sides. Fingernails and horns come immediately to mind. A snake's or lizzard's new scales develop under the protection of the old layer, which is only shed after it is developed. Aquatic turtles lay down new keratin under the old scute and the newly developing portion is a bit LOWER. If they do not shed - they begin to pyramid. But a healthy turtle sheds and in that way retain smooth growth.

I know that shed scutes of aquatics I find constantly in my pond, whether freshly shed, or ones laying there for over a year under water, retain their shape and gentle curve, and the elements don't affect that. They don't become soft, or stiffer. They resist applied pressure to bend or reshape them. Once laid down, the scute is quite set in its form. If it is dried in the sun and I find one laying out along the pond for months - it is the same.

So, I am saying that with tortoises, they lay down new keratin as the shell expands, but the FORMING keratin is exposed on the top to environmental conditions. That situation - combined with growth exposing a wider area of NEW keratin, could very well cause the top of the layer to FORM and "set" differently or quicker, than the bottom. As the new keratin is filling in, the top dries and resists the addition of new cells, while the bottom, protected side remains more in the formative stages longer - resulting in more cells being added longer to the bottom surface than the top. This would result in a slight downward growth direction Since the top of the scute is harder / stiffer / more set earlier, that would then create slight downward pressure as the scute edges continues to form mostly on the bottom side.

With tortoises I watch grow, and now watch grow rapidly - so the process is more pronounced, I see when kept humid, the new keratin is adding in a way that appears to actually create upward bulges (probably the same as on the bottom) but now it is even - so level growth. With dry tortoises growing quickly (so the affect is more pronounced) I see the new keratin adding slight lower, flat to the middle of the previous "set" growth ring. This results in each successive ring to be lower than the previous one. And it pyramids.

SO... @DPtortiose You obviously know more about the actual cellular development of keratin. (I am no way sarcastic here. I mean that. I appreciate and love your comments) Why don't you turn your hat around for a while and look at what I am proposing and try to find reasons why this could be happening, instead of coming from why it shouldn't happen. Kind of like all the aeronautical engineers who KNOW a bumblebee cannot fly. But it does.

I am not as technically versed as the great scientists. But I do know the process of discovery. It begins with observation and conclusions drawn from consistent, real-world results of things we can see and measure. Someone starts to draw conclusions and makes a hypothesis of why this is happening. That theory is what science then runs on. Finding results that will consistently fit the model, or getting results that disproves the model. So far, all the results I have seen, and read about, and can look at in actual tortoises are consistent with this model.


----------



## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> It is exactly that next sentence I am talking about. And that is their point of these two sentences: They say cells are only ADDED (new growth) "form a new thick corneous layer around the hinges" Yet "cells produced in more central parts" (old growth) "maintain a homogeneous thickness... along the whole scute surface." If that weren't their point, how can you have NEW cells added along the more central parts and still maintain a homogeneous thickness. And especially with them juxtapositioning this statement to contrast and make their point of differentiation in their next statement - that Aquatic turtles add cells along the entire scute.
> 
> I can't follow your reasoning with the rest of your comments about stiffening / swelling. I certainly do not in my proposal suggest a scute, once formed, will straighten out, or curl, or reform in any way with humidity or dryness. I am proposing that IN THE FORMATIVE STAGES as the new keratin is expanding and filling in the seams between the scutes, the bottom of the NEW kerating is against moist tissue / bone, while the top is exposed to environmental conditions. Just like our fingernail (you brought up earlier), most hard keratin structures in nature seem to have developed a way of developing and laying down the NEW portion protected by contact with moist tissue on all sides. Fingernails and horns come immediately to mind. A snake's or lizzard's new scales develop under the protection of the old layer, which is only shed after it is developed. Aquatic turtles lay down new keratin under the old scute and the newly developing portion is a bit LOWER. If they do not shed - they begin to pyramid. But a healthy turtle sheds and in that way retain smooth growth.
> 
> I know that shed scutes of aquatics I find constantly in my pond, whether freshly shed, or ones laying there for over a year under water, retain their shape and gentle curve, and the elements don't affect that. They don't become soft, or stiffer. They resist applied pressure to bend or reshape them. Once laid down, the scute is quite set in its form. If it is dried in the sun and I find one laying out along the pond for months - it is the same.
> 
> So, I am saying that with tortoises, they lay down new keratin as the shell expands, but the FORMING keratin is exposed on the top to environmental conditions. That situation - combined with growth exposing a wider area of NEW keratin, could very well cause the top of the layer to FORM and "set" differently or quicker, than the bottom. As the new keratin is filling in, the top dries and resists the addition of new cells, while the bottom, protected side remains more in the formative stages longer - resulting in more cells being added longer to the bottom surface than the top. This would result in a slight downward growth direction Since the top of the scute is harder / stiffer / more set earlier, that would then create slight downward pressure as the scute edges continues to form mostly on the bottom side.
> 
> With tortoises I watch grow, and now watch grow rapidly - so the process is more pronounced, I see when kept humid, the new keratin is adding in a way that appears to actually create upward bulges (probably the same as on the bottom) but now it is even - so level growth. With dry tortoises growing quickly (so the affect is more pronounced) I see the new keratin adding slight lower, flat to the middle of the previous "set" growth ring. This results in each successive ring to be lower than the previous one. And it pyramids.
> 
> SO... @DPtortiose You obviously know more about the actual cellular development of keratin. (I am no way sarcastic here. I mean that. I appreciate and love your comments) Why don't you turn your hat around for a while and look at what I am proposing and try to find reasons why this could be happening, instead of coming from why it shouldn't happen. Kind of like all the aeronautical engineers who KNOW a bumblebee cannot fly. But it does.
> 
> I am not as technically versed as the great scientists. But I do know the process of discovery. It begins with observation and conclusions drawn from consistent, real-world results of things we can see and measure. Someone starts to draw conclusions and makes a hypothesis of why this is happening. That theory is what science then runs on. Finding results that will consistently fit the model, or getting results that disproves the model. So far, all the results I have seen, and read about, and can look at in actual tortoises are consistent with this model.


 Mark I need to go back and read this thread through. Ive only scan read most of it except this last post. I'll read back tomorrow. 
What your are saying in lame man terms is. 
The layer of keratin is moist underneath and dry on top thus turning up on the edges. This is because the underside surface area is bigger because it's expanded with moisture and the outer surface area is smaller because it's dry and shriveled up(so to speak). Am I understanding you correctly?


----------



## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> Mark I need to go back and read this thread through. Ive only scan read most of it except this last post. I'll read back tomorrow.
> What your are saying in lame man terms is.
> The layer of keratin is moist underneath and dry on top thus turning up on the edges. This is because the underside surface area is bigger because it's expanded with moisture and the outer surface area is smaller because it's dry and shriveled up(so to speak). Am I understanding you correctly?


No. The scute grows at the edges. This new keratin as it fills in is moist on the bottom (in contact with rich blood supply and living bone) while exposed on top. If subject to drying conditions, it will dry out more on the top of the new growth - becoming stiffer, and more resistant to new cell growth. So since the scute retains it same thickness as it expands, this forces more of the growth on to the bottom of the new portion - this makes the new growth ring lower than the previous. Let me redraw what I showed in a previous post.



Let's call this a three growth spurt tortoise. In the wild could well coincide with a three year old. The top one would be growing with a more balanced hydration differential top vs bottom of new growth of scute. The new growth would add cells and expands pretty balanced top and bottom. We would see a growth ring, but it's ridge is level with the original scute and subsequent 'rings".

The second would be where the new keratin is forming in too dry conditions. This does cause the keratin to stiffen and become very resistant, causing the rest of the growth adding more to the bottom of the new growth. So now the growth ring is lower in each successive growth period. The growing, pliable bone conforms to the scute - which retains the same thickness, but is forced to grow downward. = Pyramided scute.


----------



## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> No. The scute grows at the edges. This new keratin as it fills in is moist on the bottom (in contact with rich blood supply and living bone) while exposed on top. If subject to drying conditions, it will dry out more on the top of the new growth - becoming stiffer, and more resistant to new cell growth. So since the scute retains it same thickness as it expands, this forces more of the growth on to the bottom of the new portion - this makes the new growth ring lower than the previous. Let me redraw what I showed in a previous post.
> View attachment 179635
> 
> 
> Let's call this a three growth spurt tortoise. In the wild could well coincide with a three year old. The top one would be growing with a more balanced hydration differential top vs bottom of new growth of scute. The new growth would add cells and expands pretty balanced top and bottom. We would see a growth ring, but it's ridge is level with the original scute and subsequent 'rings".
> 
> The second would be where the new keratin is forming in too dry conditions. This does cause the keratin to stiffen and become very resistant, causing the rest of the growth adding more to the bottom of the new growth. So now the growth ring is lower in each successive growth period. The growing, pliable bone conforms to the scute - which retains the same thickness, but is forced to grow downward. = Pyramided scute.





Markw84 said:


> No. The scute grows at the edges. This new keratin as it fills in is moist on the bottom (in contact with rich blood supply and living bone) while exposed on top. If subject to drying conditions, it will dry out more on the top of the new growth - becoming stiffer, and more resistant to new cell growth. So since the scute retains it same thickness as it expands, this forces more of the growth on to the bottom of the new portion - this makes the new growth ring lower than the previous. Let me redraw what I showed in a previous post.
> View attachment 179635
> 
> 
> Let's call this a three growth spurt tortoise. In the wild could well coincide with a three year old. The top one would be growing with a more balanced hydration differential top vs bottom of new growth of scute. The new growth would add cells and expands pretty balanced top and bottom. We would see a growth ring, but it's ridge is level with the original scute and subsequent 'rings".
> 
> The second would be where the new keratin is forming in too dry conditions. This does cause the keratin to stiffen and become very resistant, causing the rest of the growth adding more to the bottom of the new growth. So now the growth ring is lower in each successive growth period. The growing, pliable bone conforms to the scute - which retains the same thickness, but is forced to grow downward. = Pyramided scute.


Got ya. I was assuming everytime the keratin comes from the centre of the scute, your saying the next bout of new keratin starts from the end of the last growth.
Not disagreeing, I'm purposely trying to think of something that goes against this so it's full proof. 
What happens when the tort stops growing and the keratin keeps growing. My old wc torts plastron and carapace is super thick. 

One of my 3 juveniles has minor pyramiding, he's also a greedy sod, if he eats more protein that then creates more keratin but all 3 get same soaks and humidity levels, what happens? I'm thinking that humidity and rain from above overcompensates for any variation in protein intake within a species in the wild. Hydrating from below doesn't quite compensate for protein variation intake because the amount or speed of keratin growth is relevant to protein intake.


----------



## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> Got ya. I was assuming everytime the keratin comes from the centre of the scute, your saying the next bout of new keratin starts from the end of the last growth.
> Not disagreeing, I'm purposely trying to think of something that goes against this so it's full proof.
> What happens when the tort stops growing and the keratin keeps growing. My old wc torts plastron and carapace is super thick.
> 
> One of my 3 juveniles has minor pyramiding, he's also a greedy sod, if he eats more protein that then creates more keratin but all 3 get same soaks and humidity levels, what happens? I'm thinking that humidity and rain from above overcompensates for any variation in protein intake within a species in the wild. Hydrating from below doesn't quite compensate for protein variation intake because the amount or speed of keratin growth is relevant to protein intake.


I would still advocate a relatively low protein diet. I referenced protein earlier in regard to keratin production, but agree with @DPtortiose in that it doesn't take much. I was referring to a few times, years ago, out of frustration, I kept trying artificially lower and lower protein as that was promoted as a cause of pyramiding. It didn't work - they still pyramided.

The more I learn the more I stay to the belief that the keratin and scute formation is pretty even and uniform, and once laid down, stays that way. So would resist the idea of more protein = more keratin / thicker scutes. Wear changes that, of course and we see old, wild tortoises with extremely worn scutes.


----------



## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> I would still advocate a relatively low protein diet. I referenced protein earlier in regard to keratin production, but agree with @DPtortiose in that it doesn't take much. I was referring to a few times, years ago, out of frustration, I kept trying artificially lower and lower protein as that was promoted as a cause of pyramiding. It didn't work - they still pyramided.
> 
> The more I learn the more I stay to the belief that the keratin and scute formation is pretty even and uniform, and once laid down, stays that way. So would resist the idea of more protein = more keratin / thicker scutes. Wear changes that, of course and we see old, wild tortoises with extremely worn scutes.


 Trouble is mark. In the wild they will eat what ever they find, think of a redfoot that finds a dead bird, it will eat every part of that bird, another redfoot may not find one for months, mother nature combats that with humidity and rainfall. Must do!!!! 

Yes I agree, once it's layed down it stays layed down. After let's say a hatchling is a 6months old the bone structure is set, it will follow that set path. This falls in with they hatch in monsoon season. Think of the bone structure as a tree branch, you can train it when young and supple but once it's hardened off it follows the path you set it on. After the bone structure is set, the keratin will follow if what you are saying is right about keratin being pretty uniform.


----------



## Anyfoot

I will read this back tomorrow when no alcohol in system


----------



## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> Trouble is mark. In the wild they will eat what ever they find, think of a redfoot that finds a dead bird, it will eat every part of that bird, another redfoot may not find one for months, mother nature combats that with humidity and rainfall. Must do!!!!
> 
> Yes I agree, once it's layed down it stays layed down. After let's say a hatchling is a 6months old the bone structure is set, it will follow that set path. This falls in with they hatch in monsoon season. Think of the bone structure as a tree branch, you can train it when young and supple but once it's hardened off it follows the path you set it on. After the bone structure is set, the keratin will follow if what you are saying is right about keratin being pretty uniform.


I agree to a point - I think the "set structure" is not so set, and happens far later. I am seeing this with my Burmese Stars. 5 - 7 years to "set" a pattern of pyramiding, yet I see it dramatically almost stopped in 3 months with the new growth. It seems as long as there is substantial growth compared to overall size, the growth pattern is malleable. To what degree, I am believing is a relation to total size vs. the amount of new growth added.



Anyfoot said:


> I will read this back tomorrow when no alcohol in system


In re-reading what I am struggling to try to say - I thing I might need more alcohol!


----------



## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> I agree to a point - I think the "set structure" is not so set, and happens far later. I am seeing this with my Burmese Stars. 5 - 7 years to "set" a pattern of pyramiding, yet I see it dramatically almost stopped in 3 months with the new growth. It seems as long as there is substantial growth compared to overall size, the growth pattern is malleable. To what degree, I am believing is a relation to total size vs. the amount of new growth added.
> 
> 
> In re-reading what I am struggling to try to say - I thing I might need more alcohol!


Mark. I'm trying to think how opposite species deal with what we are talking about.

For example

A redfoot eats a high level of protein and fruits,. This is compensated on the outer karatin layer through high humidity and heavy rainfall.

This is where I'm struggling.

A testudo from the island of Majorca does not eat a high level of protein or fruits.
So to make the math simple let's say a redfoot is 100% in protein intake(foliage and meat) and 100% in humidity and rainfall. The bone and keratin is on par.

Now lets say a testudo on the island of Majorca is only 50% humidity and rainfall, does this mean that with each species the internal (the underneath of keratin growth) needs to match the external ambient hydration. (Hence lower humidity is advised in testudo's compared to redfoots).

Then let's look at homeana hingebacks(I have these). Super humid with marsh type conditions ,and a very high protein intake. 80%ish.

What I'm trying to say is. Because a redfoot eats more fruit and protein is this balanced with heavy rainfall, as oppose to a testudo in drier conditions not eating fruit and MEAT protein. Is that how mother nature balanced it up?
Glug glug glug.


----------



## mark1

i think this article answers the question if humidity effects beta-keratin as it does alpha-keratin


https://www.researchgate.net/public...l_Organisms_and_Efforts_at_Bioinspiration#pf5



> *2.4.4. *Hydration sensitivityThe mechanical properties of botha- and b-keratins are highly inﬂuenced by the water content.* As the humidity increases, the stiffness and strength decrease whereas the breaking strain increases.
> Increasing humidity decreases strength and Young’s modulus of a- and b-keratins*
> 
> *humidity also plays an important role in the mechanical behavior of both a- and b-keratins*


----------



## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> Mark. I'm trying to think how opposite species deal with what we are talking about.
> 
> For example
> 
> A redfoot eats a high level of protein and fruits,. This is compensated on the outer karatin layer through high humidity and heavy rainfall.
> 
> This is where I'm struggling.
> 
> A testudo from the island of Majorca does not eat a high level of protein or fruits.
> So to make the math simple let's say a redfoot is 100% in protein intake(foliage and meat) and 100% in humidity and rainfall. The bone and keratin is on par.
> 
> Now lets say a testudo on the island of Majorca is only 50% humidity and rainfall, does this mean that with each species the internal (the underneath of keratin growth) needs to match the external ambient hydration. (Hence lower humidity is advised in testudo's compared to redfoots).
> 
> Then let's look at homeana hingebacks(I have these). Super humid with marsh type conditions ,and a very high protein intake. 80%ish.
> 
> What I'm trying to say is. Because a redfoot eats more fruit and protein is this balanced with heavy rainfall, as oppose to a testudo in drier conditions not eating fruit and MEAT protein. Is that how mother nature balanced it up?
> Glug glug glug.


Very little protein consumed goes to keratin production. It takes very little. So - more protein does not mean more keratin or thicker scutes. Just as if you ate more protein, it would not result in thicker fingernails and hair. To get where a lack of protein would limit keratin production, would have to be virtual starvation. So some is needed, but more protein does not lead to more keratin.

I am not theorizing the amount of keratin produced is tied to humidity either. NO balance there. I am saying the amount of humidity can affect the way keratin 'sets' or develops in the growing stage. In fact, I am proposing whatever humidity is present, the AMOUNT of keratin is the same. The way it is then forced to grow is different.


----------



## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> Very little protein consumed goes to keratin production. It takes very little. So - more protein does not mean more keratin or thicker scutes. Just as if you ate more protein, it would not result in thicker fingernails and hair. To get where a lack of protein would limit keratin production, would have to be virtual starvation. So some is needed, but more protein does not lead to more keratin.
> 
> I am not theorizing the amount of keratin produced is tied to humidity either. NO balance there. I am saying the amount of humidity can affect the way keratin 'sets' or develops in the growing stage. In fact, I am proposing whatever humidity is present, the AMOUNT of keratin is the same. The way it is then forced to grow is different.


 Still not read back, too many kids in house this last weekend, chaos
Your probably right with protein levels, anyway if more keratin is produced then also tort would grow faster bringing everything back on par. 
So back to my 1 juvie out of 3 that slightly pyramided, variables are diet, time spent under CHE, time spent in warmer part of the enclosure and amount of water on torts carapace. Humitiy and soaks were exactly the same. The only thing I can think of applying your logic is, because it grew faster it didn't get enough hydration from above. I.e artificial rain. 
This is a smooth one, it's just going through another growth spell, you can see the plates have split but not yet fill with keratin. In your logic, this is the most important time to get humidity/hydration in that crevice between the plates. Hydrating from below works but not 100% full proof. Hydrating from above is 100% full proof to equalize the internal hydration of the underside of new keratin. Do you agree. 
Mark, I'm on holiday next weekend for 12 days. When I get back I'm going to see about getting some x-rays done of some of my torts. I have every combination possible I think in this herd. I'll find out today if that's possible for the exotic vet to do. 
I'll show you the torts 1st. Then pick some out.


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## Anyfoot

So when we see torts that have scutes pulled in a disfigured direction, it's because the artificial heat source has dried out the keratin directly below the heat source more than the keratin on the opposite side of the scute. Causing uneven keratin growth.
Like this.
If that's the case, anything other than even heat all over the carapace will cause uneven growth too.


----------



## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> Still not read back, too many kids in house this last weekend, chaos
> Your probably right with protein levels, anyway if more keratin is produced then also tort would grow faster bringing everything back on par.
> So back to my 1 juvie out of 3 that slightly pyramided, variables are diet, time spent under CHE, time spent in warmer part of the enclosure and amount of water on torts carapace. Humitiy and soaks were exactly the same. The only thing I can think of applying your logic is, because it grew faster it didn't get enough hydration from above. I.e artificial rain.
> This is a smooth one, it's just going through another growth spell, you can see the plates have split but not yet fill with keratin. In your logic, this is the most important time to get humidity/hydration in that crevice between the plates. Hydrating from below works but not 100% full proof. Hydrating from above is 100% full proof to equalize the internal hydration of the underside of new keratin. Do you agree.
> [/ATTACH]


Craig:

A couple things. You mention the one that grew faster is showing some pyramiding. Only saw a picture of your smooth one. Would love to see the mildly pyramided one for comparison. I assume that, from what I am proposing, the faster growth would expose wider new keratin seams - and they would be more prone to the effect. Also I believe there must just be a difference in keratin production between individuals. Just as some people have thicker, stronger fingernails, than others who have weak, brittle fingernails. Perhaps if keratin in a particular tortoise is just thinner, it is more likely to show effects, or even if thicker, perhaps it is laying down new keratin a bit longer and has a longer window for this to happen.

As far as hydration from beneath - the underside of the scute. I don't think that will vary. It is in direct contact with living tissue. Even a very dessicated, badly dehydrated tortoise would be the same in that regard as a fully hydrated tortoise. It would have to be dead, and dead quite a while, to ever move away from 100% "humidity" at the bottom of the scute. The variable is the exposed part of the scute while growing - the top.

x-rays are an interesting look into things. If you're going to get that done, what I would look for if it will show in the quality of image done:
Any perceptible difference in the overall thickness of the scute (keratin) of the smooth, vs pyramided.
also, any difference in bone density between the two. - faster growth vs slower growth.





Anyfoot said:


> So when we see torts that have scutes pulled in a disfigured direction, it's because the artificial heat source has dried out the keratin directly below the heat source more than the keratin on the opposite side of the scute. Causing uneven keratin growth.
> Like this.
> If that's the case, anything other than even heat all over the carapace will cause uneven growth too.


I would believe if you are talking about scutes disfigured and "pulled together" we are not talking about the pyramiding issue I am proposing at all. If the scute is being deformed laterally, not the downward growth of pyramiding, I think that is a bone issue. The scute is deforming as the problem is being reflected in the bone seam, not the scute seam. Metabolic Bone Disease does that. Injury damaging the bone does that.


----------



## DPtortiose

Markw84 said:


> It is exactly that next sentence I am talking about. And that is their point of these two sentences: They say cells are only ADDED (new growth) "form a new thick corneous layer around the hinges" Yet "cells produced in more central parts" (old growth) "maintain a homogeneous thickness... along the whole scute surface." If that weren't their point, how can you have NEW cells added along the more central parts and still maintain a homogeneous thickness. And especially with them juxtapositioning this statement to contrast and make their point of differentiation in their next statement - that Aquatic turtles add cells along the entire scute.



Because the homogeneous thickness must be maintained, therefore there are cells in the center that produce keratin to maintain this. Keratin wears down just like everything else, so growth must be present in the center. Or it would lead to exposed bone. Besides, hatchling scutes are noticeable less thicker then those of an adult. So there must be center growth



Markw84 said:


> I can't follow your reasoning with the rest of your comments about stiffening / swelling. I certainly do not in my proposal suggest a scute, once formed, will straighten out, or curl, or reform in any way with humidity or dryness. I am proposing that IN THE FORMATIVE STAGES as the new keratin is expanding and filling in the seams between the scutes, the bottom of the NEW kerating is against moist tissue / bone, while the top is exposed to environmental conditions. Just like our fingernail (you brought up earlier), most hard keratin structures in nature seem to have developed a way of developing and laying down the NEW portion protected by contact with moist tissue on all sides. Fingernails and horns come immediately to mind. A snake's or lizzard's new scales develop under the protection of the old layer, which is only shed after it is developed. Aquatic turtles lay down new keratin under the old scute and the newly developing portion is a bit LOWER. If they do not shed - they begin to pyramid. But a healthy turtle sheds and in that way retain smooth growth.
> 
> I know that shed scutes of aquatics I find constantly in my pond, whether freshly shed, or ones laying there for over a year under water, retain their shape and gentle curve, and the elements don't affect that. They don't become soft, or stiffer. They resist applied pressure to bend or reshape them. Once laid down, the scute is quite set in its form. If it is dried in the sun and I find one laying out along the pond for months - it is the same.



Ah, that makes your point much clearer.



Markw84 said:


> So, I am saying that with tortoises, they lay down new keratin as the shell expands, but the FORMING keratin is exposed on the top to environmental conditions. That situation - combined with growth exposing a wider area of NEW keratin, could very well cause the top of the layer to FORM and "set" differently or quicker, than the bottom. As the new keratin is filling in, the top dries and resists the addition of new cells, while the bottom, protected side remains more in the formative stages longer - resulting in more cells being added longer to the bottom surface than the top. This would result in a slight downward growth direction Since the top of the scute is harder / stiffer / more set earlier, that would then create slight downward pressure as the scute edges continues to form mostly on the bottom side.



Ah, so your proposing that an increased growth from the bottom strains the shell. That would be more of an genetic problem then an environmental one though. Growth is regulated by messenger RNA (it’s DNA but a little bit different) and genes,it’s possible that one of these things is ‘broken’ and extra growth occurs. Or if the progress is simply 'made' to repair wear more quickly.

It’s sound theory if you look at the difference between ‘bloodlines’ and state that the humidity softens the keratin and decreases it’s hardness. It’s then less likely to deform the bone and thus provide a more smooth animal. The definitive proof would lie with captive animals grown in their native habitat. If offspring experiences similar growth as their parents in ‘optimal’ conditions.



Markw84 said:


> With tortoises I watch grow, and now watch grow rapidly - so the process is more pronounced, I see when kept humid, the new keratin is adding in a way that appears to actually create upward bulges (probably the same as on the bottom) but now it is even - so level growth. With dry tortoises growing quickly (so the affect is more pronounced) I see the new keratin adding slight lower, flat to the middle of the previous "set" growth ring. This results in each successive ring to be lower than the previous one. And it pyramids.
> 
> SO... @DPtortiose You obviously know more about the actual cellular development of keratin. (I am no way sarcastic here. I mean that. I appreciate and love your comments) Why don't you turn your hat around for a while and look at what I am proposing and try to find reasons why this could be happening, instead of coming from why it shouldn't happen. Kind of like all the aeronautical engineers who KNOW a bumblebee cannot fly. But it does.
> 
> I am not as technically versed as the great scientists. But I do know the process of discovery. It begins with observation and conclusions drawn from consistent, real-world results of things we can see and measure. Someone starts to draw conclusions and makes a hypothesis of why this is happening. That theory is what science then runs on. Finding results that will consistently fit the model, or getting results that disproves the model. So far, all the results I have seen, and read about, and can look at in actual tortoises are consistent with this model.



Don't get me wrong, I you have a interesting theory and I'm argueing from a luxery position (I don't have burden of proof), but a scientific theory is only usefull if it correctly predicts something. The aeronautical engineers might not be able to make a bumblebee fly with their theory, but they are able to make a plain fly.

The critique that I have on this theory it isn't based on any direct evidence and that it doesn't make complelety correct predictions. I do very much like the the assumptions it's based on and it's thought out quite elegantly. I think the idea that the keratin misshapes the bone is a good angle to work from, I simply disagree with the cause.

The reason I haven't put forward anything concrete is because I'm still debating cause and effect. Looking a the X-rays from Yvonne the 'bumbs' are clearly caused by deformities in the bone. So I'm wondering if the keratin is simply a big red herring and we're focusing on an environment 'bandage' like Highfield suggests, while the real problem lies elsewhere in the husbandry.


----------



## DPtortiose

mark1 said:


> i think this article answers the question if humidity effects beta-keratin as it does alpha-keratin
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/public...l_Organisms_and_Efforts_at_Bioinspiration#pf5



Very interesting research, it has some very interesting figures on the hardness of dry and wet beta keratin. It's a shame nothing is stated about the swelling of beta keratin, it's pretty much repeats the previous studies finding on alpha keratin. The question if beta-keratin swells and how much it would swell is still not answered, but the difference in hardness is very useful information I think.

What if the opposite of what we're discussing is true? Instead of the keratin pushing down, the bone is unable to push up as the animal grows. The bone wants to push out since it needs to grow. The new keratin growth hardens to quickly in dry conditions so it is much harder then the softer keratin in the center of the scutes. The bone is able to 'push' the soft center keratin out, but is unable to push hard new growth lines up, resulting in the x-rays Yvonne posted.


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## Markw84

@DPtortoise Interesting you mention Highfield. Since I have been going back replying in this thread, I yesterday noticed on the bottom of the page a "Similar Thread" from Nov 2013. Sure looks like Andy Highfield assumed the name of testudoresearcher, and laid out a detailed theory quite similar to this and was probably trying to promote a new book. But from the excellent evidence he did lay out to support his theory, it does pretty conclusively link the humidity and growth of keratin. As well as confirm most all new keratin is formed at the scute seams, not under the older parts of the scute. In fact all the research and evidence he lays out goes directly to support my proposal here. He came to a slightly different conclusion that to me does not account for all the things I cite. He is concluding the scute creates an upward, curling pressure pulling the bone upward. Doesn't make sense as he says the top is becoming stiffer, the bottom can swell. Simple physics say that would cause the scute to bend in a concave direction, not pyramid!

I am just curious why no one in that thread called him on his previous statements shown in Tom's End of Pyramiding thread, that looking at humidity had absolutely no valid scientific connection to pyramiding, and was "red herring"! ????? I Believe that is what you are referring to.


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## Yvonne G

We knew that was Andy, and was probably only here because he had a new book coming out, but didn't want him to stop posting.

Way back when, Tom did experiments and shared all the pictures and information with the Forum. Because we were able to see it all first hand (so to speak) I believed in the humidity theory. Tom wasn't the only one who touted this theory. The first I heard of it was from one of the Fife brothers. Then our favorite RF (now DBT) member, RedfootNERD used to always say spray them until they drip. But then Tom came along with his very visible experiments with pictures shown over time. You just can't refute it when you see it like that.

But no one can argue with Andy or Nadine. I used to belong to their Yahoo group. If you dared to say anything different from what they espoused, they made fun of you or ignored you. They weren't open to any other ideas besides their own.


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## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> Craig:
> 
> A couple things. You mention the one that grew faster is showing some pyramiding. Only saw a picture of your smooth one. Would love to see the mildly pyramided one for comparison. I assume that, from what I am proposing, the faster growth would expose wider new keratin seams - and they would be more prone to the effect. Also I believe there must just be a difference in keratin production between individuals. Just as some people have thicker, stronger fingernails, than others who have weak, brittle fingernails. Perhaps if keratin in a particular tortoise is just thinner, it is more likely to show effects, or even if thicker, perhaps it is laying down new keratin a bit longer and has a longer window for this to happen.
> 
> As far as hydration from beneath - the underside of the scute. I don't think that will vary. It is in direct contact with living tissue. Even a very dessicated, badly dehydrated tortoise would be the same in that regard as a fully hydrated tortoise. It would have to be dead, and dead quite a while, to ever move away from 100% "humidity" at the bottom of the scute. The variable is the exposed part of the scute while growing - the top.
> 
> x-rays are an interesting look into things. If you're going to get that done, what I would look for if it will show in the quality of image done:
> Any perceptible difference in the overall thickness of the scute (keratin) of the smooth, vs pyramided.
> also, any difference in bone density between the two. - faster growth vs slower growth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would believe if you are talking about scutes disfigured and "pulled together" we are not talking about the pyramiding issue I am proposing at all. If the scute is being deformed laterally, not the downward growth of pyramiding, I think that is a bone issue. The scute is deforming as the problem is being reflected in the bone seam, not the scute seam. Metabolic Bone Disease does that. Injury damaging the bone does that.


Mark.
By hydrating from beneath,I was referring to a tort sitting in a puddle as oppose to a tort getting rained on to make the outer layer of keratin supple so it is on par with the internal side of the keratin. My bad. Sorry. Soaking a tort helps it grow smoother, why? How does sitting a tort in 1" depth of water help the new keratin on top of its carapace become supple so to grow smoother? I can only think the keratin is absorbing more internally. So if like you say, some torts produce thicker keratin layers than other, then on the thicker keratin produces maybe soaking doesn't quite cut it. However would hydration from above(rain/humidity) over come any thickness of keratin. So on my mildly pyramided tort was it a case of soaking didn't quite cut it because he has thicker growing keratin. 

The tort I loaded with scutes pulled together is also pyramided. If what you are saying that dry keratin forces the bone to grow down and nice hydrated supple keratin allows the bone to grow correctly. Why if a tort sits under a heat lamp creating a hot spot on its carapace wouldnt a scutes new keratin be able to be both dry and humid. The heat lamp could be making one side of a scute drier (keratin harder) than the other side. So one side is pushing bone down and the other is not. I think this tort has just been nominated for an x-ray. 

Here you go


----------



## DPtortiose

Markw84 said:


> @DPtortoise Interesting you mention Highfield. Since I have been going back replying in this thread, I yesterday noticed on the bottom of the page a "Similar Thread" from Nov 2013. Sure looks like Andy Highfield assumed the name of testudoresearcher, and laid out a detailed theory quite similar to this and was probably trying to promote a new book. But from the excellent evidence he did lay out to support his theory, it does pretty conclusively link the humidity and growth of keratin. As well as confirm most all new keratin is formed at the scute seams, not under the older parts of the scute. In fact all the research and evidence he lays out goes directly to support my proposal here. He came to a slightly different conclusion that to me does not account for all the things I cite. He is concluding the scute creates an upward, curling pressure pulling the bone upward. Doesn't make sense as he says the top is becoming stiffer, the bottom can swell. Simple physics say that would cause the scute to bend in a concave direction, not pyramid!



Depends, I think he's assuming that the stiffer (upper) layer of keratin gives in instead of the bone (as you do). Which seems more logical to me, since bone is denser and less elastic then the top layer of keratin. The scute will curve upwards pulling the bone with it. creating a hump.



Markw84 said:


> I am just curious why no one in that thread called him on his previous statements shown in Tom's End of Pyramiding thread, that looking at humidity had absolutely no valid scientific connection to pyramiding, and was "red herring"! ????? I Believe that is what you are referring to.



I was referring to this: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html Specificity the parts about humidity softening the the structure of the keratin and bone density. Perhaps the bones in captive animals aren't as dense of wild tortoises and therefore have trouble pushing the hardened edges outwards. The bone underneath the center scutes don't have this problem and can grow out more easily, forming the bumbs we see.A high humidity helps to soft the outer growth allowing the bone to grow outwards and push the keratin with it. It would also explain why a lack of calcium shows similar symptoms (or argueable the same) as pyramiding.

I was more stating that perhaps we've simply been starring at one solution to long, don't get me wrong I think there is a very real connection between pyramiding and humidity. But the closer you look at a puzzle piece the less you see of the complete puzzle. Perhaps we're simply looking at the wrong puzzle piece, perhaps not.


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## BrianWI

I would love to see a shell with pyramids with the keratin removed. Don't suppose we have one around anywhere?


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## Anyfoot

Does anyone have any x-rays they can share with us. We've seen a perfect smooth x-ray and a perfect pyramided x-ray. We need to see some that have pyramiding then it's smoothed out. Or a pyramided with deformed scutes x-ray for comparison. I'm defo going to get some done, but won't be for 3 wks if I can't get it done this week, which is highly unlikely.


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## BrianWI

The growth plates of the bone aren't aligned with the scutes, that is where I am having an issue putting it together.


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## Markw84

BrianWI said:


> The growth plates of the bone aren't aligned with the scutes, that is where I am having an issue putting it together.


Exactly. That's why it isn't and can't be bone pressure, but scute pressure. The pyramiding follows the shape of the scute, not the shape of the bone.

Bone, especially in young, is EXTREMELY pliable and moldable. An extremely small downward pressure by the growth of new keratin that becomes stiffer on top forcing the growth more downward, would easily be enough to cause the bone to grow in that same direction. We see examples all the time, from the Mangbetu tribe reshaping infant girl's heads, to my grandson's corrective helmet. Orthodontics, leg braces, Ancient Asian foot binding. A root can lift concrete with cellular pressure, a mushroom can poke through and reshape asphalt as it emerges. And it explains why we see tortoises that have pyramiding stop kept in identical conditions as they get larger. Mine certainly did. Look at the photos Craig @Anyfoot provided. Although his pyramided redfoot is barely what I would call pyramided, it is growing slightly differently. And if we look closely at the scute growth we see the same differences I noticed with my Burmese about the characteristic of the growth we can see. A smooth growing tortoise seems to have upward bulges as the new keratin is laid down, while the more pyramided one has the new growth discernably flatter on top. I am presuming this is forcing the growth downward then as the scute retains its same thickness.

Here's a closer look comparing Craig's two tortoises: Notice on the scute I reference for smooth (humped) on the far right, it looks like it grew a little pyramid-like at a very young age, and smoothed out a bit later. The pyramided one also looks like it was a bit more pronounced earlier. Craig - did you start them a bit drier the first 6 or 12 months??


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## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> Exactly. That's why it isn't and can't be bone pressure, but scute pressure. The pyramiding follows the shape of the scute, not the shape of the bone.
> 
> Bone, especially in young, is EXTREMELY pliable and moldable. An extremely small downward pressure by the growth of new keratin that becomes stiffer on top forcing the growth more downward, would easily be enough to cause the bone to grow in that same direction. We see examples all the time, from the Mangbetu tribe reshaping infant girl's heads, to my grandson's corrective helmet. Orthodontics, leg braces, Ancient Asian foot binding. A root can lift concrete with cellular pressure, a mushroom can poke through and reshape asphalt as it emerges. And it explains why we see tortoises that have pyramiding stop kept in identical conditions as they get larger. Mine certainly did. Look at the photos Craig @Anyfoot provided. Although his pyramided redfoot is barely what I would call pyramided, it is growing slightly differently. And if we look closely at the scute growth we see the same differences I noticed with my Burmese about the characteristic of the growth we can see. A smooth growing tortoise seems to have upward bulges as the new keratin is laid down, while the more pyramided one has the new growth discernably flatter on top. I am presuming this is forcing the growth downward then as the scute retains its same thickness.
> 
> Here's a closer look comparing Craig's two tortoises: Notice on the scute I reference for smooth (humped) on the far right, it looks like it grew a little pyramid-like at a very young age, and smoothed out a bit later. The pyramided one also looks like it was a bit more pronounced earlier. Craig - did you start them a bit drier the first 6 or 12 months??
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 180041
> 
> 
> View attachment 180042


 Mark. I got these at 4months old, although this one was slightly bigger, got them from a breeder who also owns a reptile shop. I don't know how they started them off, but the yearlings they had were pyramided. 
This is the one variable I have no control over. I personally think they were started dry, but I caught the 2 smaller ones in time and the pyramided one just out of the bone setting time. If this is agreeable, it means bone hardens off between 4 and 6months.
I have weights of these, I should be able to say what age they were when my hatchling reaches the weight I got these at, I know they all grow at slightly different weights, but not vastly, surely.


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## DPtortiose

BrianWI said:


> The growth plates of the bone aren't aligned with the scutes, that is where I am having an issue putting it together.



I'm not aware that bone has growth plates, could perhaps explain a bit more what do you mean with this. I'm not totally sure I understand you correctly.



Markw84 said:


> Exactly. That's why it isn't and can't be bone pressure, but scute pressure. The pyramiding follows the shape of the scute, not the shape of the bone.


'

I'm suggesting the bone shapes the scute, if you look at the X-rays you'll see that that the scute isn't misformed, it isn't thicker in any placenor shows any signs of swelling. The bone however is misformed. If misshapen scutes would be the cause, I'd expect to see some misshapen keratin, but the keratin in the X-rays seems 'normal'. Perhaps we'd get a better view from photo's from actual bone/keratin rather then an x-ray.



BrianWI said:


> Bone, especially in young, is EXTREMELY pliable and moldable. An extremely small downward pressure by the growth of new keratin that becomes stiffer on top forcing the growth more downward, would easily be enough to cause the bone to grow in that same direction. We see examples all the time, from the Mangbetu tribe reshaping infant girl's heads, to my grandson's corrective helmet. Orthodontics, leg braces, Ancient Asian foot binding. A root can lift concrete with cellular pressure, a mushroom can poke through and reshape asphalt as it emerges. And it explains why we see tortoises that have pyramiding stop kept in identical conditions as they get larger. Mine certainly did. Look at the photos Craig @Anyfoot provided. Although his pyramided redfoot is barely what I would call pyramided, it is growing slightly differently. And if we look closely at the scute growth we see the same differences I noticed with my Burmese about the characteristic of the growth we can see. A smooth growing tortoise seems to have upward bulges as the new keratin is laid down, while the more pyramided one has the new growth discernably flatter on top. I am presuming this is forcing the growth downward then as the scute retains its same thickness.



The scutes don't remain the same thickness, they maintain an homogeneousthickness across the scute. That means scutes do become thicker as an animal ages to my knowledge (a hatchling has thinner scutes compared to an adult animal). Besides the keratin in the center should be more hydrated then the keratin in the scutes (less hydration loss since their isn't a 'edge exposed to air) and therefore should have more growth. At least if hydration does cause an increased growth in the scute, which I doubt that it does.


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## Anyfoot

The one thing that's not clicking for me is that as dptortoise says, they get thicker keratin with age, so when a tort gets fully grown it still carries on producing keratin. 
If the new keratin does not start at the centre of the scute everytime what would happen when it's fully grown. 
Why can't Mark's theory work with keratin starting from the centre of the keratin aswell. This is an old Brazilian I have. Not only is the carapace super thick, so is the plastron. Doesn't the plastron work on the same principle, the plastron gets hydrated internally and on the external face from walking over wet grasses etc, and it doesn't get dried out from the sun or heat source. I have some with rough plastrons too(looks like wood) have they been kept on too dry substrate I ask myself.


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## WithLisa

DPtortiose said:


> I'm not aware that bone has growth plates, could perhaps explain a bit more what do you mean with this. I'm not totally sure I understand you correctly.


Just like a skull, the shell has lots of sutures (which are the growth sites). I only have a turtle shell, but it's similar in tortoises:


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## Anyfoot

At first I thought keratin grow from the centre of the scute and tracked to the boarders, then mark suggested the next new growth comes from the end of the old growth. 
Why would it not grow from the full area and where the scute joints are to fill with new keratin have to be moist to allow the keratin that is exposed to the open to be supple to fill the new boarder crevice. 
This is the only way I can see a carapace getting thicker and thicker once fully grown.


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## Anyfoot

Forgot to add, is that pyramided x-ray confusing matters, and the reason for the porous bone structure is dietary. Lack of calcium maybe.


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## TurtleBug

BrianWI said:


> I would love to see a shell with pyramids




The following page by Wolfgang Wegehaupt, a well known European author, has two cross sectional photos of pyramided tortoise shells. One with thick porous bone and the other with thin dense bone.

http://www.testudo-farm.de/html/formation_of_humps.html


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## Markw84

The epithelium is the layer between the keratin scute and the bone of the shell. That is the layer that is producing new scute material. It is covering the entire underside of the sute, but the addition of new keratin along the underside of the existing portion of the scute is extremely small compared to the growth at the seam. It adds very little to overall thickness over the life of the tortoise. A very little bit over time, but nothing compared to the new growth that is happening at the seams. Extreme wear indeed does expose bone in old tortoises. If you look at a tortoise shell and remove the scute, it is not that thick. The bone continues to grow, the scute adds extremely little new keratin. A quote from Highfield: 
" Terrestrial tortoises use a different mode of keratin-cell deposition (epidermal proliferation). In this mode, new cells are predominantly deposited at the edges of the scutes, again building from the inside surface "

At the EDGE of the scutes building from the INSIDE surface. So what if drying too quickly makes the top of that edge surface stiffer? IT PUSHES DOWN!

And this from an article in the World Chelonian Trust Newsletter:
"Turtle scutes are essentially the epidermal layer. The scutes are composed of a hard layer of keratin covering the bony plates of the shell. Beneath each scute is a layer of germinal tissue, the epithelium, which produces new scute material (4). During periods of growth, a new layer of keratin is applied to the entire underside of each scute. The new layer is very thin under the center of the scute and thickens towards the edges. This material is soft and plastics, and as it reached the seam and protrudes past the edge of the scutes, it flows upward, forming the new, expanded edge of the scute. The new layer bonds with the old edge and eventually hardens in place. As the scute grows, so does the epithelial layer underlying it."

"...it protrudes past the edge of the scute, it flows UPWARD forming the new expanded edge..." We now know drying stiffens - so what happens to that upward flow????

PYRAMIDING IS CAUSED BY PRESSURE EXERTED BY NEW GROWTH AT THE EDGE OF THE SCUTE PUSHING DOWN. THIS HAPPENS WHEN DRY CONDITIONS CAUSE THE TOP OF THE NEW SCUTE MATERIAL TO STIFFEN EARLIER THAN NATURAL, FORCING THE NEW KERATIN GROWTH DOWNWARD AGAINST THE BONE.

What else fits all these real life observations?

The top of the scutes of pyramided, but otherwise healthy tortoises, is the same height as the top of the center of the scutes of a smooth tortoise. The "valley" is sunken.
New growth on a smooth tortoise swells up forming an new ridge as it fills in the growth seam - even with the top of the previous growth ring. New growth on a pyramided tortoise creates a flat, stepped appearance with the new growth flat at or beneath the center of the level of the previous growth "ring".
Many older tortoises are more resistant to pyramiding.
Young tortoises are most susceptible to pyramid.
Scute thickness does not increase in pyramided tortoises it is the same as a smooth tortoise. It simply follows the contour of the pyramid at uniform thickness.
In a healthy but pyramided tortoise, the Bone does not thicken at the center of a pyramided scute. It also is a fairly uniform thickness following the contour of the pyramid.


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## Markw84

DPtortiose said:


> I'm not aware that bone has growth plates, could perhaps explain a bit more what do you mean with this. I'm not totally sure I understand you correctly.
> 
> 
> I'm suggesting the bone shapes the scute, if you look at the X-rays you'll see that that the scute isn't misformed, it isn't thicker in any placenor shows any signs of swelling. The bone however is misformed. If misshapen scutes would be the cause, I'd expect to see some misshapen keratin, but the keratin in the X-rays seems 'normal'. Perhaps we'd get a better view from photo's from actual bone/keratin rather then an x-ray.



I forgot to add to the above observations...
The pyramiding follows the shape of the scute exactly and does not follow the shape of the individual bones and their growth seams.
All I have on my computer is turtle bone vs scute, but it is basically the same. You can see how bones have no relation to scute layout.


Here is the bones of a turtle. Note where the growth seams would be.


Here is the scutes and their corresponding seams. Never align. Creates more strength.


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## Anyfoot

Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. Is it more like this assuming it's hydrated correctly.


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## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. Is it more like this assuming it's hydrated correctly.
> View attachment 180097


Sort of... But nowhere near the right scale to see relationship. If your scute is the scale we want, the epithelium would be a single line, and the bone would be about 6x the size you show. Also the epithelial layer is a very thin living tissue layer that is a "germination" layer for the keratin. This creates keratin growth. But unlike aquatic turtles, the keratin adds maybe one or two cells thick along the bottom, and the growth then concentrates on the seam, where it build out and up from under that edge, as growth causes the seams to separate.


----------



## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> Sort of... But nowhere near the right scale to see relationship. If your scute is the scale we want, the epithelium would be a single line, and the bone would be about 6x the size you show. Also the epithelial layer is a very thin living tissue layer that is a "germination" layer for the keratin. This creates keratin growth. But unlike aquatic turtles, the keratin adds maybe one or two cells thick along the bottom, and the growth then concentrates on the seam, where it build out and up from under that edge, as growth causes the seams to separate.


Ha ha yes i didn't scale it, basically it's a layer of keratin with a wrap around to fill the seam. If it's to dry at that time the wrap around can't happen and forces bone growth down.


----------



## Anyfoot

So if someone has a bunch of hatchlings and some are smoother than others even though it seems all are tret the same is it because they are all at slightly different stages of growing when hydrated. For example.
We soak or mist 10 torts but at the time of hydration 1 has the growth seems open and 9 don't. When we put them back under an artificial heat source, they all dry out to some degree. No harm done to the 9. But the 1 has just had its new keratin that's just about to fill the seem dried out. 
That example would be the 2 opposite ends of the scale.


----------



## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> So if someone has a bunch of hatchlings and some are smoother than others even though it seems all are tret the same is it because they are all at slightly different stages of growing when hydrated. For example.
> We soak or mist 10 torts but at the time of hydration 1 has the growth seems open and 9 don't. When we put them back under an artificial heat source, they all dry out to some degree. No harm done to the 9. But the 1 has just had its new keratin that's just about to fill the seem dried out.
> That example would be the 2 opposite ends of the scale.


I think that could happen, especially if the growth happened to coincide with a hot spell, vs rainy period of higher humidity when outside, etc. However, don't discount when we are talking about the slighter version of pyramiding like yours - There is probably just a difference in the thickness or strength of the keratin, one tortoise to the next. Just as some are larger, darker, a bit more domed. As I said in an earlier post, some people have thin brittle fingernails, and others have thicker, stronger.


----------



## WithLisa

Markw84 said:


> I think that could happen, especially if the growth happened to coincide with a hot spell, vs rainy period of higher humidity when outside, etc. However, don't discount when we are talking about the slighter version of pyramiding like yours - There is probably just a difference in the thickness or strength of the keratin, one tortoise to the next. Just as some are larger, darker, a bit more domed. As I said in an earlier post, some people have thin brittle fingernails, and others have thicker, stronger.


I believe another important reason is different behaviour. Some like very humid hides, others prefer dryer places, some are shy and others bask more often. 
Right from the beginning I knew which of my torts was going to be the smoothest.


----------



## Anyfoot

WithLisa said:


> I believe another important reason is different behaviour. Some like very humid hides, others prefer dryer places, some are shy and others bask more often.
> Right from the beginning I knew which of my torts was going to be the smoothest.


 Yes, and that's probably why there are some pyramided torts in the wild. 
If a hatchling stays in shade until bone structure becomes set in, it's probably going to be smoothy. One that ventures into direct sunlight from time to time won't be.


----------



## Yvonne G

I don't know if this pertains to the subject matter, but I thought you might be interested. This deformed leopard tortoise was 10 years old when it was given to me. Her shell is so pinched in on the sides that her legs didn't work right and she could hardly move them. I was able to keep her alive for almost a year. As you can see in the pictures, even though it's a bit blurry, the bone corresponds to the misshapen keratin:


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## BrianWI

Should hang a for rent sign on it.


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## Yvonne G

BrianWI said:


> Should hang a for rent sign on it.



No, it's already occupied. Every time I move it to dust the shelf there's little piles of sawdust under it.


----------



## aneta

bouaboua said:


> My wife need to read this. She spoiled all our torts with too much food because she cannot bear the look on there face every time when they know she is coming near.
> 
> After so many arguments, now we feeding them three times a week.


wow 3 times a week ,thats not enough in my opinion ,I couldn't do that


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## JoesMum

aneta said:


> wow 3 times a week ,thats not enough in my opinion ,I couldn't do that


I agree. There is no reason not to feed them daily. In the wild they would not deliberately starve themselves.


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## bouaboua

aneta said:


> wow 3 times a week ,thats not enough in my opinion ,I couldn't do that





JoesMum said:


> I agree. There is no reason not to feed them daily. In the wild they would not deliberately starve themselves.


It looks we are starving them but not really. We been practicing this feeding schedule for over an year now, they still grow, we see growth line on their plastron, they became more active, maybe they are out looking for food? And we do see the pyramiding ease off.


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## Anyfoot

I totally agree with this theory of how keratin grows. It's basically a ratio of humidity versus growth. 

Mark I would appreciate your thoughts on protein too. 
We hear often some say it's lack of humidity that causes pyramiding, there are still long time carers/breeders who still say it's diet. There is something that is sticking in my mind and won't go away, Yvonne and Tom don't understand how they grow smooth torts in Arizona (think it was Arizona anyway)where it's dry. I'm starting to think it can be both humidity/hydration and/or diet (protein intake) 
Keratin is protein based. If I fed my tortoise rich foods that did not contain protein at all(yes there would be other health issues but let's forget about that for now) my tortoise would grow but not be capable of growing new keratin to fill in the newest crevices from the scute plates moving apart. 
This would also give same results as dry keratin not being able to fill in the crevices. 
If this theory has some merit, it means you can keep a tort as hydrated/humid as you want but with no protein it can pyramid. Don't forget there is protein in animal and foliage.
If both humidity/hydration and protein (diet) all take part in the getting a perfect wild look this would explain why when we see an adult wild caught tort in captivity the new growth is lower down, it's as though the new keratin is not as thick. I'm thinking it's because the diet has changed from when it was caught.(less protein). This could also explain why even within the same clutch we see slightly different degrees of pyramiding (from none to very very mild pyramiding). Because some hatchlings didn't get the correct ratio of protein to growth rate even though they were kept humid/hydrated. 
Next clutch I get are getting fed only one type of food per day, they will get the mixed diet over a week or two. This way each tort will have its fill on exactly the same foods.


----------



## cdmay

Anyfoot said:


> The one thing that's not clicking for me is that as dptortoise says, they get thicker keratin with age, so when a tort gets fully grown it still carries on producing keratin.
> If the new keratin does not start at the centre of the scute everytime what would happen when it's fully grown.
> Why can't Mark's theory work with keratin starting from the centre of the keratin aswell. This is an old Brazilian I have. Not only is the carapace super thick, so is the plastron. Doesn't the plastron work on the same principle, the plastron gets hydrated internally and on the external face from walking over wet grasses etc, and it doesn't get dried out from the sun or heat source. I have some with rough plastrons too(looks like wood) have they been kept on too dry substrate I ask myself.
> View attachment 180082



Anyfoot, could you post more photos of this big male in the red-foot forum?
Thanks!


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## Anyfoot

cdmay said:


> Anyfoot, could you post more photos of this big male in the red-foot forum?
> Thanks!


Will do. It's a female Carl.


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## cdmay

Anyfoot said:


> Will do. It's a female Carl.


OK great. Don't know why I assumed it was a male...


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## Maggie Cummings

JoesMum said:


> I agree. There is no reason not to feed them daily. In the wild they would not deliberately starve themselves.



They should be fed daily, wild blooms and weeds, leafs. If they were in the wild they'd eat daily. I used to have a 3-legged Gopherus agassizii, she'd catch bluebelly's off the fence and eat'em


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## Crazy Tortoise

Lol Toms probably pissed XD


----------



## no one

Saved this very interesting thread for a other moment. Thank you.


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## Anyfoot

@Markw84 

Quick question. 

When we see a crevice between scutes before it fills in with new keratin, what are we actually looking at in the bottom of the crevice before it fills?


----------



## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> @Markw84
> 
> Quick question.
> 
> When we see a crevice between scutes before it fills in with new keratin, what are we actually looking at in the bottom of the crevice before it fills?


Craig

I assume this is a thin, beginning layer of keratin. The scute (keratin) is protecting the epithelial layer beneath and I would not believe this would be exposed as the scute is spread with the underlying bone growth. I would think the keratin would be stimulated to grow with this separation and would continually protect the epithelial layer. At first it would be quite thin and gain thickness as the new growth matures. It is while in this thin, and pliable state, I believe the opportunity for pyramiding exists here at the seams with this new growth exposed. Drying stiffens and stops normal swelling of the keratin, and maybe possibly it partially damages or alters the character of the epithelial layer. But new keratin growth is force more downward as a result.


----------



## Anyfoot

I agree Mark. We are zooming in on how the keratin actually grows now. 

I was thinking of three options on how it grows. 
1. Thin layer at bottom of crevice keeps growing until the crevice is flush with the carapace. (But how would it know to stop growing?)

2. Thin layer at bottom of crevice keeps expanding with moisture until flush with carapace.(But how would it know to stop expanding?)

3. Thin layer at bottom of crevice kept moist as bone grows to correct thickness it pushes supple thin layer that was at bottom of crevice level to carapace and hardens off.(this is the only method of the 3 that crevice width and depth would not affect carapace smoothness)


----------



## x-tank

Yvonne G said:


> I thought these pictures might be beneficial to the thread. First the non-pyramided carapace:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then the carapace with pyramids:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see that the underlying bone does indeed grow upwards, however, not nearly as bad as the keratin.
> 
> http://startortoises.net/pyramiding.html




Pyramiding x-ray looked almost like human with Rickets vit-D deficiency. see attachment. The bone density is so low on x-ray its showing spongy air spaces. The bone layer appeared shorten and bowing compared to normal shell layer. The abnormal spongy thicken bone structure is actually due to bone remodeling responding to low calcium vita-D deficiency condition. Maybe because this angulation, the keratin layer on top appeared to get pushed upward. Once the curvature is formed, it just gets worse. See each scute like an old lady with scoliosis.
Also my thought about overgrowth. The scenario I could think of it's like a fat kid with weak bone lol. Fast growing animal need more calcium in their diet proportionally. For example if someone feed their animal 3 times a week and add calcium twice a week as per recommendation. If another personal decides to feed their animal every day, then calcium should be double to 4 times a week instead of 2 times a week.
Last just my opinion, there are so many theories out there what caused pyramiding. Probably everyone is right in some percentage just more or less. The thing is if one pays attention on their tortoise, care for them, that same person most likely will do their homework, feed them right diet, make sure their animal get proper sun light, exercise, hydration, soaking, misting, no junk food etc. Many pyramiding tortoise come from neglect. Anyway, my 2 cents.


----------



## Tom

x-tank said:


> Pyramiding x-ray looked almost like human with Rickets vit-D deficiency. see attachment. The bone density is so low on x-ray its showing spongy air spaces. The bone layer appeared shorten and bowing compared to normal shell layer. The abnormal spongy thicken bone structure is actually due to bone remodeling responding to low calcium vita-D deficiency condition. Maybe because this angulation, the keratin layer on top appeared to get pushed upward. Once the curvature is formed, it just gets worse. See each scute like an old lady with scoliosis.
> Also my thought about overgrowth. The scenario I could think of it's like a fat kid with weak bone lol. Fast growing animal need more calcium in their diet proportionally. For example if someone feed their animal 3 times a week and add calcium twice a week as per recommendation. If another personal decides to feed their animal every day, then calcium should be double to 4 times a week instead of 2 times a week.
> Last just my opinion, there are so many theories out there what caused pyramiding. Probably everyone is right in some percentage just more or less. The thing is if one pays attention on their tortoise, care for them, that same person most likely will do their homework, feed them right diet, make sure their animal get proper sun light, exercise, hydration, soaking, misting, no junk food etc. Many pyramiding tortoise come from neglect. Anyway, my 2 cents.



Pyramiding is _caused_ by growth in conditions that are too dry. Its that simple. Nothing to do with speed of growth or calcium intake. Nothing to do with sunshine or vitamin D3. Nothing to do with exercise or junk food. It is not a result of neglect.

Yes there have been a lot of theories proposed over several decades about the causes of pyramiding and how to prevent it. Almost all of it was wrong, and that's why almost all of it didn't work. Once we corrected the dryness problem, the pyramiding stopped, regardless of all the other factors you mentioned.


----------



## x-tank

Tom said:


> Pyramiding is _caused_ by growth in conditions that are too dry. Its that simple. Nothing to do with speed of growth or calcium intake. Nothing to do with sunshine or vitamin D3. Nothing to do with exercise or junk food. It is not a result of neglect.
> 
> Yes there have been a lot of theories proposed over several decades about the causes of pyramiding and how to prevent it. Almost all of it was wrong, and that's why almost all of it didn't work. Once we corrected the dryness problem, the pyramiding stopped, regardless of all the other factors you mentioned.



I see, interesting. Then it's not related to MBD? these are two separate issue?

I am thinking once my small tortoise get bigger, I will get a larger indoor enclosure and get a nice misting system. I have seen owner raised baby tortoises in misting system and the shell are so unbelievably nice and smooth. It's definitely something I want in very near future. Right now I do sporadically spray water on my tortoise shell and enclosure and that on average probably 8-10 times a day. Is that ok?


----------



## Markw84

x-tank said:


> I see, interesting. Then it's not related to MBD? these are two separate issue?
> 
> I am thinking once my small tortoise get bigger, I will get a larger indoor enclosure and get a nice misting system. I have seen owner raised baby tortoises in misting system and the shell are so unbelievably nice and smooth. It's definitely something I want in very near future. Right now I do sporadically spray water on my tortoise shell and enclosure and that on average probably 8-10 times a day. Is that ok?


Read this for a more detailed and further explanation... https://www.tortoiseforum.org/posts/1580413

I believe that providing plant hides that a tortoise can push under with shell contact in a very humid enclosure is the best situation. For many reasons. The feeling of security. Protection from IR. High humidity means a dew point extremely close to current temp. So any area of just slightly cooler temps will create dew and the tortoise pushing under a plant will remain much more hydrated on the carapace. Even when moving from under the plant- where it is slightly cooler - to venture out to feed, moisture will start to develop on the carapace as it will be at the dew point when moved to just a higher temperature.


----------



## Anyfoot

x-tank said:


> I see, interesting. Then it's not related to MBD? these are two separate issue?
> 
> I am thinking once my small tortoise get bigger, I will get a larger indoor enclosure and get a nice misting system. I have seen owner raised baby tortoises in misting system and the shell are so unbelievably nice and smooth. It's definitely something I want in very near future. Right now I do sporadically spray water on my tortoise shell and enclosure and that on average probably 8-10 times a day. Is that ok?


 You can feed a perfect diet that covers all nutritional needs and still get a pyramided tortoise if grown dry. 
You can raise a tortoise in super wet conditions but feed a poor diet(lettuce only for example) and end up with a bumpy tortoise due to MBD. 
MBD and pyramiding are 2 separate issues.


----------



## TammyJ

Anyfoot said:


> You can feed a perfect diet that covers all nutritional needs and still get a pyramided tortoise if grown dry.
> You can raise a tortoise in super wet conditions but feed a poor diet(lettuce only for example) and end up with a bumpy tortoise due to MBD.
> MBD and pyramiding are 2 separate issues.


OK. If MBD ("bumpy tortoise") and Pyramiding are two separate issues, how do you tell if it's one or the other?
Just want to learn here. I have two Redfoots, almost three years old, and one has a really smooth shell while the other's shell is showing definite signs of pyramiding, despite the fact that they live and grow in the exact same conditions of temperature and humidity. So is there no other factor apart from growth in dry conditions that might contribute to pyramiding (their diet is also the same, and it's a good, recommended diet of all the right stuff for Redfoots)?


----------



## xphare

TammyJ said:


> OK. If MBD ("bumpy tortoise") and Pyramiding are two separate issues, how do you tell if it's one or the other?
> Just want to learn here. I have two Redfoots, almost three years old, and one has a really smooth shell while the other's shell is showing definite signs of pyramiding, despite the fact that they live and grow in the exact same conditions of temperature and humidity. So is there no other factor apart from growth in dry conditions that might contribute to pyramiding (their diet is also the same, and it's a good, recommended diet of all the right stuff for Redfoots)?



Did you get them at the same time as hatchlings? sorry if you already explained this.


----------



## Markw84

TammyJ said:


> OK. If MBD ("bumpy tortoise") and Pyramiding are two separate issues, how do you tell if it's one or the other?
> Just want to learn here. I have two Redfoots, almost three years old, and one has a really smooth shell while the other's shell is showing definite signs of pyramiding, despite the fact that they live and grow in the exact same conditions of temperature and humidity. So is there no other factor apart from growth in dry conditions that might contribute to pyramiding (their diet is also the same, and it's a good, recommended diet of all the right stuff for Redfoots)?


The "classic" look of MBD is a depressed area in the rear portion of the carapace - about the 3rd-4th vertebral. The muscles and ligaments that attach from the leg and hip girdle create enough pressure that this are will become the 1st to sink in a bit. IF more pronounced, the whole shell becomes more flattened looking. You also see the growth at the bottom of the costals start dramatically outpacing any growth between the vertebrals. The whole top part of the carapace will have a pinched in look with proportionately smaller scutes on the top parts.


----------



## Anyfoot

1&2 are photos of a pyramided tortoise. 

Photos 3&4 are a tortoise with MBD. 

@Markw84 can tell us in more detail. 

1&2






3&4


----------



## Anyfoot

TammyJ said:


> OK. If MBD ("bumpy tortoise") and Pyramiding are two separate issues, how do you tell if it's one or the other?
> Just want to learn here. I have two Redfoots, almost three years old, and one has a really smooth shell while the other's shell is showing definite signs of pyramiding, despite the fact that they live and grow in the exact same conditions of temperature and humidity. So is there no other factor apart from growth in dry conditions that might contribute to pyramiding (their diet is also the same, and it's a good, recommended diet of all the right stuff for Redfoots)?


 Mark answered your MBD question. 

The mystery of some torts pyramiding and some not and seemingly have been kept identical in care is the fine tuning I think we all want to know and are slowly getting to the answers. 

A few thoughts to ponder. 

How old were your torts when you got them and did they really have the exact same care prior to you receiving them? 

Are they the same age, if one was 4wks and the other 12wks with same wrong care before you got them then the 12wk old would most likely pyramid and maybe you caught the 4wk old in time(for example). 

Do they behave the same in your enclosure? Maybe 1 sits out in the open and 1 digs in under moist foliage, resulting in different growth patterns. 

Maybe one dominates any hot spots and dries out more than the other. 

I’ll take a stab and take a chance of making a fool out of myself and say your more pyramided tort is more outgoing than the smooth one.


----------



## TammyJ

xphare said:


> Did you get them at the same time as hatchlings? sorry if you already explained this.


Absolutely, yes, same time as hatchlings from the same batch.


----------



## TammyJ

Anyfoot said:


> Mark answered your MBD question.
> 
> The mystery of some torts pyramiding and some not and seemingly have been kept identical in care is the fine tuning I think we all want to know and are slowly getting to the answers.
> 
> A few thoughts to ponder.
> 
> How old were your torts when you got them and did they really have the exact same care prior to you receiving them?
> 
> Are they the same age, if one was 4wks and the other 12wks with same wrong care before you got them then the 12wk old would most likely pyramid and maybe you caught the 4wk old in time(for example).
> 
> Do they behave the same in your enclosure? Maybe 1 sits out in the open and 1 digs in under moist foliage, resulting in different growth patterns.
> 
> Maybe one dominates any hot spots and dries out more than the other.
> 
> I’ll take a stab and take a chance of making a fool out of myself and say your more pyramided tort is more outgoing than the smooth one.


Love the assumption re the more "outgoing" pyramided tortoise. Not that I have actually noticed!
These torts were obtained at the same time and age, they were just about three weeks old and both were kept rather too dry by the breeder, in the same conditions and space.
They are in a separated outdoor enclosure, each has the same humidity, foliage/mud cover, sun spots, water pool and hide as the other. I live in the hills of St. Andrew in Jamaica. It gets very cool sometimes at night especially at "winter" time here and when it is too cold I bring them both indoors to spend the night in separate cardboard box beds. During the day outdoors they each spend time in the "hide" section of his enclosure, and burrow into the earth a bit sometimes. When it rains, they get wet and it gets nice and muddy, and so do they. If the night is warm but raining, I cover their enclosure completely with a plastic shower curtain.


----------



## TammyJ

Anyfoot said:


> 1&2 are photos of a pyramided tortoise.
> 
> Photos 3&4 are a tortoise with MBD.
> 
> @Markw84 can tell us in more detail.
> 
> 1&2
> 
> View attachment 255095
> 
> View attachment 255094
> 
> 
> 3&4
> 
> View attachment 255092
> 
> View attachment 255093


This is very informative, thank you!


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## TammyJ

Here they are taking a walk in the yard, maybe you can see the one that is smoother than the other. The smoother "operator" happens to be in front - just a coincidence......?


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## Anyfoot

TammyJ said:


> Here they are taking a walk in the yard, maybe you can see the one that is smoother than the other. The smoother "operator" happens to be in front - just a coincidence......?
> 
> View attachment 255108


They both look good. 
As far as the photo shows they look the same as far as smoothness.


----------



## Cathie G

Markw84 said:


> I just posted this on anther thread, but as it developed, I thought the title of that thread took away from the message and was best in a thread of its own titled appropriately.
> 
> 
> 
> I have come to believe through all my trial and error, all the things I read and study, all the experiments done - heat, no heat, night heat, no night heat, fast growth, slow growth, higher protein, more calcium, better UVB, on, and on, and on - all to me only fit one basic take on this. I can't imagine a variable that hasn't been tried, yet all do fit one conclusion. Pyramiding is seen when you have high metabolism triggered WITHOUT humidity. If you give the tortoise higher heat and more food, without humidity, you will get Pyramiding.
> 
> If I think about the tortoise in its natural environment, they ENDURE periods of food scarcity, and hot, dry weather. They basically stop growing and estivate during these periods to survive - waiting for the time to thrive. When the monsoons come, they have ample food with the rains and humidity. They grow in those conditions. They don't grow in food-scarce, dry conditions. It's really logical - food is available when it is wetter allowing the food to grow. So warm + humid = grow time. In dry times, the food dries up, and tortoises stop growing. It's when we create an artificial condition they would never see naturally in their home environments that we see pyramiding. We provide ample food and heat & UVB in DRY conditions. We get their metabolism going, yet without one key ingredient - proper hydration. So they grow, but don't grow naturally.
> 
> Sulcatas seem to follow this pattern the most strictly. It seems where they come from, when it dries up, there is no water available, nor food, so they go in a real slow or no growth mode in those dry times. If you look at leopards and stars, some seem get pyramided in the wild. But they also come from areas where it may end up a dry year, but water sources may linger longer into dry periods, and I believe you would see tortoises (especially growing their first few years) through abnormally dry years - actually finding food and growing in dry conditions - and pyramiding.
> 
> 3 1/2 months ago now I got a group of Burmese Stars from the Behler Center. Their philosophy is to purposely slow grow their Star tortoises a bit along the belief that fast growth would lead to more pyramiding. I got them and they were pretty significantly pyramided and quite small for their age. So despite purposeful slow growth in conditions meant to more mimic a natural environment temperature wise - They pyramided. The humidity in their enclosures was always quite low. They do keep other species in greenhouses with controlled humidity, but the Burmese are kept drier. The average weight of the goup when they arrived was 454.2 grams despite being just over 5 years old. I have since convinced them the monsoon season has finally arrived, with a closed chamber I posted my build in that was a basic copy of @Tom 's chambers. So in 3 1/2 months the group had now averaged adding 301.8 grams! So the average for the group was going from 454 g (in five years) to 756 g in 3 1/2 more months. So, I grew them too fast and they will surely pyramid after 5 years of a set growth pattern - right? NO! All the new growth is coming in flat. Here's a picture I just went out to take of the growth pattern you can see in one of them...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For me this continues to confirm that fast growth has nothing to do with pyramiding. This study this thread is about says high heat may cause pyramiding. While actually, my closed chamber is in my second garage that the past several weeks has been close to 93 dropping to 80 at night. The chamber constantly struggled to stay in the low 90's as I had to put the basking lights on a separate thermostat to turn off at 90 to avoid overheating. Their nighttime temps averaged 85. Despite this higher heat, faster growth, AND 5 years of a pyramiding growth pattern in a drier environment - I saw immediate change in growth pattern and what looks to be a total stop to the pyramiding. I did not expect to see it so immediate!
> 
> 
> For me - I'm still convinced more than ever, if they grow - it must be humid!
> After posting that, @mark1 posted a reply mentioning what he had learned in a study about the growth of keratin in horns in cattle. He referenced that article - I read it and a the light bulb went on in my head...
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3574435/
> 
> NOW THAT'S INTERESTING AND SHOWS *CAUSE* FOR PYRAMIDING!!!
> 
> According to that study, keratin, while forming, if exposed to dry conditions will become more stiff and resistant to additional swelling if later exposed to water, while hydrated keratin will swell more resulting in a thicker layer.
> 
> I just seems to me all this mystery about pyramiding causes could be something simple. What would fit all scenarios is that the keratin as it fills in over new growth areas, will stiffen, and become resistant to filling in in a thicker layer above, yet add additional keratin below. That would cause downward growth with successive layer. As the bone growth beneath (especially in younger tortoises) is much more pliable, it would follow this growth pattern. However when kept in a moist environment, the keratin retains it ability to swell and add volume to the new scute in a more even, top to bottom, profile. Thus an even, straight growth pattern.
> 
> Everything would fit this... extremely slow growth would not pyramid and the keratin layer is barely filling in over new bone and this effect does not have a chance to happen. However, whenever there is faster growth, the larger new bone area we all see as those white lines in many species, will require faster keratin growth as well to follow. If in a dry environment, this effect will then cause the keratin to push the bone downward as the top layer of keratin becomes stiffer much faster than the bottom of the keratin. Through measurements over the years I had always believed pyramiding was not an UPWARD growth of the scute, but a downward growth of the seams. A pyramided tortoise most always measured just as tall to the top of the pyramid as a smooth tortoise is to the top of the smooth shell. So valleys are forming, not peaks.
> 
> Every scenario we have seen of pyramiding vs no pyramiding, including this study, exactly fits this proposed cause.
> 
> A few more responses were posted, and I explained my hypothesis further. Asked if that meant I was proposing "the shell needs moisture to grow properly in the up and out direction? That without the moisture it may stiffen too quick, causing the growth to pyramid?" I responded...
> 
> Basically, yes. But I'm proposing an actual CAUSE.
> 
> @Tom showed so well in his experiments that growth in a very humid environment resulted in virtually no pyramiding, However, we still don't know what CAUSES that. @deadheadvet mentions above his belief that temperature is a factor that drier air is a more stable temperature. Yet I personally have grown dozens of tortoises in very controlled stable temperature environments, and only when humidity was increased, and still using the exact temperatures as before, did I see a dramatic decrease in Pyramiding. For decades fast growth was also stated as a factor. Yet again I personally tired that, and did different diet experiments, yet only now see consistent and repeatable results of no pyramiding if humid - despite very fast growth, and different diets.
> 
> deadheadvet's assertion that pyramiding obsession is way too extreme has merit. The overall health is of chief concern. However, Everyone, including deadheadvet take pride in showing off the beauty of the animals we raise. All of us loving to post prideful pictures. That is a great satisfaction of raising tortoises, or any animal successfully. A smooth, non-pyramided shell, I believe, is a very desirable and sought after result. Although in a vast majority of the cases it is cosmetic, I personally see it as a sign of great husbandry. Not to eliminate it, but to minimize it.
> 
> In extreme cases, I believe some may actually be bone problems. But I don't feel we are talking about that here. It's the "cosmetic" deformity of the shell growth I feel is reflected in husbandry techniques.
> 
> So many of us have spent decades experimenting with FACTORS that will contribute to or minimize pyramiding. But what is the CAUSE metabolically? I'm 1proposing that the growth of the scute above the bone is the primary cause of pyramiding. The study Mark! referenced showed that Keratin acts and forms differently in a dry vs moist environment. When dried the fibers actually form differently and become more stiff and resistant to a swelling that occurs with keratin that has not been excessively dried. SO...
> 
> I'm proposing that in dry environments, and very slow growth, the keratin as it forms at the edges of the scutes does so in a fairly uniform manner. But when moderate to fast growth occurs - the faster spread of keratin, exposed to dry conditions, will cause the top to stiffen, and not continue to swell as it continues to form, while the bottom of the new scute keratin continues to grow in a thicker way. This pressure is exerted on the bone below and causes the new scute seam to be lower than the previous seam. In a humid environment, the keratin as it spreads, does so much more evenly, with stiffness and swelling equal top and bottom - and grows straight.
> 
> The more I think this over, the more it makes sense to me. I went back and reread Tom's "the End of Pyramiding" thread. It answers all the issues and questions always posed on this contentious subject. Many always seen to refute the humidity, or say there is no scientific basis - based on the way metabolically bone grows. They're right -its not the bone affected - its the scute affecting the bone! Just a braces can straighten teeth in a jaw or a corrective helmet's gentle pressure can straighten the growth of an infants head. Or they partially accept it and say it is complex and many factors come into play. Yet we see time and again examples of smooth growth with humidity no matter which of the other "contributing factors" are left out in the care of the tortoise. Smooth with inadequate D3, Smooth with no sunlight, smooth with fast growth, food with inadequate calcium and even metabolic bone disease - yet smooth! Yet we never see smooth without humidity somewhere in the equation. It also speaks directly to the issue I have noticed, and Tom and others have mentioned but there was never a WHY... How come tortoises seem to be very resistant to pyramiding once they reach a certain size? Well, it would make sense that as the tortoise ages, it reaches a point where the underlying bone hardens enough to resist the pressure the scute applies.


I've been reading about pyrimiding and wondering if I needed to worry. The last few sentences of this article answered some of my questions.


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## x-tank

Can any members please share some of their own 3-5 year old tortoises that were raised in high humidity environment? Not being skeptical, but I really want to see the difference it makes. I probably read this thread many time and watched Tom's 2015 "the end of pyramiding" video at youtube twice, and am totally convinced the humidity cause pyramiding. However after searching so many different websites and youtube etc I've only seen examples of small tortoise with smooth shell raised in high humidity, but when come to older bigger ones there were no examples. When showing the adult tortoise, the owners always claimed the pyramiding ones were raised by someone else, rescue etc. Anyway, if someone can just show a GROUP of subadult tortoise with 100% no exception smooth shell raised in high humidity, that will truly to end any discussion or debate.


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## Tom

x-tank said:


> Can any members please share some of their own 3-5 year old tortoises that were raised in high humidity environment? Not being skeptical, but I really want to see the difference it makes. I probably read this thread many time and watched Tom's 2015 "the end of pyramiding" video at youtube twice, and am totally convinced the humidity cause pyramiding. However after searching so many different websites and youtube etc I've only seen examples of small tortoise with smooth shell raised in high humidity, but when come to older bigger ones there were no examples. When showing the adult tortoise, the owners always claimed the pyramiding ones were raised by someone else, rescue etc. Anyway, if someone can just show a GROUP of subadult tortoise with 100% no exception smooth shell raised in high humidity, that will truly to end any discussion or debate.



These were my first attempts at the humid hydrated methods from back in 2008-2010. Back in those days I was still using open topped enclosures and trying to close them in as best I could. The results were good, but not perfect. As the years went by and I switched to real closed chambers, the results got even better.


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## Anyfoot

x-tank said:


> Can any members please share some of their own 3-5 year old tortoises that were raised in high humidity environment? Not being skeptical, but I really want to see the difference it makes. I probably read this thread many time and watched Tom's 2015 "the end of pyramiding" video at youtube twice, and am totally convinced the humidity cause pyramiding. However after searching so many different websites and youtube etc I've only seen examples of small tortoise with smooth shell raised in high humidity, but when come to older bigger ones there were no examples. When showing the adult tortoise, the owners always claimed the pyramiding ones were raised by someone else, rescue etc. Anyway, if someone can just show a GROUP of subadult tortoise with 100% no exception smooth shell raised in high humidity, that will truly to end any discussion or debate.


5yrs old. Raised 1st 2yrs of life at 99% humidity. Soaked 3 times a wk. Fed just about everything. No basking spot.


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## x-tank

Picture says a thousand words. Thanks for sharing.


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## Anyfoot

I have


x-tank said:


> Picture says a thousand words. Thanks for sharing.


80/85% humidity is not good enough for redfoots. I’ve just raised loads up to 2yrs old. Some are absolutely perfect and some are bumpy. So I’m putting that down to, the ones that are smooth found the even higher humidity areas within an average of 80/85% enclosure. In other words they dug in and hid more often. 
I have another batch of 24 babies in a very tightly controlled environment now. Time will tell.


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