# Sulcata-Pairs



## paigefaneller (Feb 26, 2017)

my torts... Cindy & Trudy, (I know they're genders are not identified yet because they're just babies) seem to be BEST FRIENDS. & Ive been told to separate them now or I'll regret it later. They've been together since I've gotten them & so far nothing 'violent' has caught my attention that I would need to separate them. No, I did not originally expect to keep them in the same enclosure, it happened suddenly when my sister decided not to take Trudy with her to college do to roommate issues. but I have always thought tortoises were known to become depressed? Maybe that's just a theory.



Thanks again 
Paige 
Cindy and Trudy (The Sulcatas)


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## Big Charlie (Feb 26, 2017)

Tortoises bully each other in ways that are hard for us to see. When they seem to be cuddling, one is telling the other to get out of his space. The bullying is mental. The one being bullied will try to get away but since they are trapped in the same enclosure, there is no place for them to go. They will try to make themselves smaller and be too upset to eat. Eventually the weaker one gets sick.

I've never noticed any signs of depression in my tortoise. Where did you hear that?


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## JoesMum (Feb 26, 2017)

I have never heard of tort depression. They can sulk when things change... some really don't like change at all. 

However, separating them will help both to thrive. 

As was said, cuddling is just one tort trying to move another out. It's a battle of wills that can turn to physical and bloody violence.

If you don't separate them, sooner or later one will stop eating and growing and become very withdrawn as it isn't allowed to do anything by the other.

Can I suggest you read these?

Pairs
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pairs.34837/

Why not to keep 2 torts together- a lesson learned the hard way
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...together-a-lesson-learned-the-hard-way.94114/


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## paigefaneller (Feb 26, 2017)

they're also from the same clutch--- forgot to mention that, does it make a difference?


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## wellington (Feb 26, 2017)

paigefaneller said:


> they're also from the same clutch--- forgot to mention that, does it make a difference?


No it doesn't make a difference. You really do need to separate them.


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## JoesMum (Feb 26, 2017)

paigefaneller said:


> they're also from the same clutch--- forgot to mention that, does it make a difference?


None whatsoever. They are not social. They have no family bonds or friendships.


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## dmmj (Feb 26, 2017)

being from the same clutch makes no difference whatsoever box turtle hatchlings are very carnivorous and have been known to eat the smaller weaker members of the group when kept in multiple numbers


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## paigefaneller (Feb 26, 2017)

Update: 
I separated them, but I have a Tort now pacing her enclosure. Yes it is a tank, should I cover it so she can't see the other tort ?? or is it just that it's new for her?


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## JoesMum (Feb 26, 2017)

paigefaneller said:


> Update:
> I separated them, but I have a Tort now pacing her enclosure. Yes it is a tank, should I cover it so she can't see the other tort ?? or is it just that it's new for her?


Chances are that it is just exploration of a new home, but using some paper to obscure the view through the glass may help her to settle quicker.


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## paigefaneller (Feb 26, 2017)

Update #2:

Tort #1: Eating, Drinking, Loving the change of enclosures 
Tort #2: Not eating, not really phased by the water, but went by it, seems to be hiding away


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## JoesMum (Feb 26, 2017)

paigefaneller said:


> Update #2:
> 
> Tort #1: Eating, Drinking, Loving the change of enclosures
> Tort #2: Not eating, not really phased by the water, but went by it, seems to be hiding away


They're individuals. Some react better to change than others. You don't say which is in a new enclosure. 

Rest assured that neither is missing the other. It's more likely that the one hiding away is the subordinate one that's concerned the other will reappear


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## cmacusa3 (Feb 26, 2017)

Are those Christmas lights and sand?


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## SarahChelonoidis (Feb 26, 2017)

cmac3 said:


> Are those Christmas lights and sand?



I think they're on a towel for the photograph.


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## cmacusa3 (Feb 26, 2017)

SarahChelonoidis said:


> I think they're on a towel for the photograph.


Ok, old eyes lol


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## paigefaneller (Feb 26, 2017)

JoesMum said:


> They're individuals. Some react better to change than others. You don't say which is in a new enclosure.
> 
> Rest assured that neither is missing the other. It's more likely that the one hiding away is the subordinate one that's concerned the other will reappear


Ironic about the subordinate one---- the tort that's hiding is the bigger one out of the 2, 
I separated the torts into 2 new enclosures, if that helps clarify 
**neither of them are in the original enclosure**


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## Beasty_Artemis (Feb 28, 2017)

I wish that i could find someone's post where they showed pictures of one of their russian tortoises after the second tortoise housed together with it bit the other tortoises eyelids off!!!
I was shocked!


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## Yvonne G (Feb 28, 2017)

All you think about at the time is to get them separated. In fact, at the time it happened to my tortoises I don't think I even had a digital camera yet.


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## Tom (Feb 28, 2017)

Beasty_Artemis said:


> I wish that i could find someone's post where they showed pictures of one of their russian tortoises after the second tortoise housed together with it bit the other tortoises eyelids off!!!
> I was shocked!



Here it is:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/bad-day-for-baby.114328/


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## Tom (Feb 28, 2017)

paigefaneller said:


> Ironic about the subordinate one---- the tort that's hiding is the bigger one out of the 2,
> I separated the torts into 2 new enclosures, if that helps clarify
> **neither of them are in the original enclosure**



Animal Behavior has been my profession since 1986. All I do is animal behavior, all day every day, with many species of mammals, birds and reptiles. The following is "colored" by this fact.

When two dogs, or two monkeys, or two rats, or two parrots don't like each other, it is very easy for us to tell. We hear it, we see it in their posture, we see it in their facial expressions, and we see it in their behavior. Tortoises can't change their posture all that much. They can stand a little higher or lower, to stick their head out more or less, but that is about it. Facial expressions don't exists. Even the subtle eye cues, like what we use with elephants, don't exists in tortoises. What we are left with is signs that are much more subtle with our tortoises. "Cuddling", following, sitting on the food, resting face to face, and hanging out in the same area, are all tortoise language for: "Hey! Jackass! Get out of my territory!" Just seeing the other tortoise from across the enclosure is enough to cause low level chronic stress which hampers the immune system and makes one or both of them fail to thrive. This doesn't necessarily mean they drop dead, they just don't do as well as they could or should. They don't have to _do_ anything. There does not have to be overt obvious combat for this to be a problem. There is seldom any obvious aggression with juveniles.

Tortoises don't usually like change. They like what is familiar. Anytime you move them to a new enclosure they will react. Some react by going into hiding, and some react by trying to get out of this new an unfamiliar territory. Sounds like you've got one of each. In time both will settle down again, and both will be better off for not living as a pair.

Here is more on the subject if you want it:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pairs.34837/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...together-a-lesson-learned-the-hard-way.94114/


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## Markw84 (Feb 28, 2017)

Tom said:


> Animal Behavior has been my profession since 1986. All I do is animal behavior, all day every day, with many species of mammals, birds and reptiles. The following is "colored" by this fact.
> 
> When two dogs, or two monkeys, or two rats, or two parrots don't like each other, it is very easy for us to tell. We hear it, we see it in their posture, we see it in their facial expressions, and we see it in their behavior. Tortoises can't change their posture all that much. They can stand a little higher or lower, to stick their head out more or less, but that is about it. Facial expressions don't exists. Even the subtle eye cues, like what we use with elephants, don't exists in tortoises. What we are left with is signs that are much more subtle with our tortoises. "Cuddling", following, sitting on the food, resting face to face, and hanging out in the same area, are all tortoise language for: "Hey! Jackass! Get out of my territory!" Just seeing the other tortoise from across the enclosure is enough to cause low level chronic stress which hampers the immune system and makes one or both of them fail to thrive. This doesn't necessarily mean they drop dead, they just don't do as well as they could or should. They don't have to _do_ anything. There does not have to be overt obvious combat for this to be a problem. There is seldom any obvious aggression with juveniles.
> 
> ...


And that is why I don't care for the term "bullying". Perhaps we would better serve those looking for advice by using "creates stress that is damaging". The term "bullying" is something people relate to as overt aggression and discount the advice as not applicable to their situation


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## Tom (Feb 28, 2017)

Markw84 said:


> And that is why I don't care for the term "bullying". Perhaps we would better serve those looking for advice by using "creates stress that is damaging". The term "bullying" is something people relate to as overt aggression and discount the advice as not applicable to their situation



Agreed. Some people seem to think that if they don't see ramming and biting that everything is perfectly fine. They don't seem to grasp that "following" is actually a high speed _chase_ in the tortoise world.


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