# New Research on Basking Lamps - from TT



## StudentoftheReptile (Jul 3, 2012)

I don't know if any of you are a member of Tortoise Trust. I just happened upon this today, and found it interesting. Thought I would share:

http://www.tortoisetrustforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8079


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## Tom (Jul 3, 2012)

Interesting stuff, but he presents it as if we didn't already know this stuff. Does somebody out there NOT know that this is a problem with indoor lighting?

Thanks for posting this. Its kind of neat to see it with the thermal imaging.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Jul 3, 2012)

I just thought the thermal imaging stuff was cool.

But yeah, it mainly just reinforces everything we basically already know. Tortoises just simply do better outdoors in natural sunlight!


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## EricIvins (Jul 4, 2012)

Long term Monitor/Big Lizard keepers have been preaching this for years now........Has nothing to do with the sun, but everything to do with basking areas relative to the size of the animal(s)......


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## wellington (Jul 4, 2012)

I will fess up. I DID know that artificial lighting is not and never will be as good as the sun, duh, i am sure everyone knows that. However, I didn't know that the lighting we are using was still as bad as the research is showing. I thought they (companies making this stuff) had come further then that. I also didn't know that the artificial uvb and heat we are using is pretty much hurting them or notere ally benefiting them. I also think a lot of members didn't know some of it either. Like, everyone, yes, everyone, tells others who has the lights hanging on an angle, to not hang them on an angle. According to the research, that would actually be better then straight down like we all say to do. Am i reading that right? Also, from what I am understanding of it at this point. My tort would probably be better off, living during the inside winter months with no basking spot, but just a warmer 85-95 ambient temp and no UVB as long as enough exposure during the summer. If using UVB, the fluorescent maybe the best safer way to go. Am I way off base? Give me your thoughts.


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## Madkins007 (Jul 5, 2012)

I found this very interesting. As you guys said- we sorta 'knew' this, but to see the scope of the problem so clearly demonstrated was startling. 

To me, this is another nail in the MVB coffin. I have been seeing a lot of reports and hearing lots of comments that have made me learly of the all-in-one 'superlight' that creates a single-source mini-sun in the habitat.

I WISH I could just do torts outside 24/7, but here in Omaha that is just not practical for most of us. Maybe Russians would be OK, but with our cold dry winters and hard soil, it would take a bit to get to a safe depth consistently.

The new indoor habitat is just a theory so far but has to happen this summer. I've been struggling to determine the best way to maintain the climate the right way for the bigger space (about 8'x4'x4-6'h). Right now the plan is long-tube UVB fluorescent and a similar warm white, then a space heater for overall air temps. I've been thinking about substrate heating and 'hot spot' basking areas. I may look into some form of IR heaters as per that interesting IR-A vs. IR-C discussion in the thread. but make a bank of several smaller bulbs a bit higher up?


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## StudentoftheReptile (Jul 5, 2012)

Given what is presented here, I have come to the conclusion that perhaps MVBs are not the best bulbs for tortoises. I would still suggest them for lizards, like beardies and Uromastyx, etc. though.


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## Madkins007 (Jul 5, 2012)

My concerns with MVBs for the last year or so is that they are really bright, really hot, and really high in UVB, but you cannot adjust them independently- if you move it so the heat or light is right, the UVB is too low, etc. The small 'sweet spot' has been a concern as well, even for medium-sized tortoises. 

Another aspect of the presented research is the importance of bottom heat (that is- the substrate being about the same temps as the air)- something that is largely poo-pooed by lots of tortoise keepers. As the imaging shows- the wild torts are about the same temps as the ground and air around them. If you placed one of those torts in the typical damp substrate habitat, I bet their entire outline would be a cool blue as the substrate sucks heat away. 

Most of out top heating systems only heat a superficial layer of the substrate and we probably should be heating it at least a little deeper- deep enough that a tortoise between the heat source and the substrate does not suck out what little heat is there and begin to draw up the cooler lower temps.


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## wellington (Jul 5, 2012)

Madkins007, wouldn't a slate slab, flat rock, etc work for what you are talking about. The bottom heat being the same as the top and air heat? My biggest concern from the experiment, was the image of the torts tip top shell getting hot, possibly burned, but the limbs, the only parts that can utilize the uv isn't being touched by the heat and therefore can't properly absorb the needed uv?


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## Tom (Jul 5, 2012)

I still say a nice flood bulb MVB is the best light for a tortoise that will spend a lot of time indoors. They key is to set the temp for the height of YOUR tortoises shell in YOUR enclosure. I've never given a second thought to adjusting the lamp up or down to get the temps right. A flood bulb heats a relatively large area pretty evenly which should work for most tortoises. I see it as a problem for the really high domed species, or any species that grows larger than the area that is lit by the bulb. There comes a point when if it's hot enough to warm the whole big tortoise, then it's too hot on the carapace, or the opposite, if it's cool enough for the top of the carapace on a high domed species like a leopard, then it's not warm enough to warm the rest of the tortoise and they will just sit under it all day. So I think MVBs work great for smaller tortoises, but I can see where they start to become problematic for any tortoise as they start to get to 6-8" or so...

Another factor in how long they bask is ambient temp. I don't know how you maintain ambient temp in a typical open topped enclosure in a typical American home without using a bunch of desiccating heat lamps. This is an issue that I have been grappling with for a while now, and I have not found a solution yet. I use closed chambers exclusively now and this really helps since I use much lower wattage bulbs and all that humidity keeps the shell from drying out so much. Also when I spray them, they stay wet for a long time, when in the open topped enclosure they were dry again in less than a minute sometimes.

I like the idea of radiant heat panels, and those are working great for me outdoors in my adult sulcata night houses, but I don't think they really simulate enough of a "basking" spot for daytime use. Great for maintaining ambient with no hot spots, but not so good for creating a gradient that allows for basking. I had pretty good results with my Kane heat mat experiment, before it was derailed by thermometer malfunctions and some other problems. Maybe I'll give that another try.


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## tyguy35 (Jul 5, 2012)

What exactly is a flood bulb mvb? Should I be mounting my lamp on an angle? I use the exoterra solar glo mvb. seems to work ok for me.


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## wellington (Jul 5, 2012)

I probably am getting overly freaked by the experiment. Tatum doesn't bask much and when he does, it always off to the side of the light. However, I don't like the way the images showed how the MVB is or isn't working. Also, the burning part really didn't like that. Won't need to change things until fall/winter. So for now, just in the thinking stage. Here is what I am thinking, for indoor only, sversl ideas. #1, fluorescent UVB and one or two Che for heat and basking. #2 radient heat panel for ambient heat and a CHE for basking, fluorescent for UVB. #3 no UVB, he gets outside every day in the warm months, from 8-9 a.m, until 6:30-7:00p.m. This year he got ouside in March for some sun, granted not normal. Normal would be some days in May, most days in June, every day July, August, September. Few days in October, November. Most like no days out in December, January, feburary and March. So no UVB, radiant heat panel, one CHE for basking temps. 
Please give me any thoughts, good or bad and the one idea you think would be best. Tatum is 16 months old now, love of my life babcocki leopard.
Thanks for all comments and /or suggestions.


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## tyguy35 (Jul 5, 2012)

wellington said:


> I probably am getting overly freaked by the experiment. Tatum doesn't bask much and when he does, it always off to the side of the light. However, I don't like the way the images showed how the MVB is or isn't working. Also, the burning part really didn't like that. Won't need to change things until fall/winter. So for now, just in the thinking stage. Here is what I am thinking, for indoor only, sversl ideas. #1, fluorescent UVB and one or two Che for heat and basking. #2 radient heat panel for ambient heat and a CHE for basking, fluorescent for UVB. #3 no UVB, he gets outside every day in the warm months, from 8-9 a.m, until 6:30-7:00p.m. This year he got ouside in March for some sun, granted not normal. Normal would be some days in May, most days in June, every day July, August, September. Few days in October, November. Most like no days out in December, January, feburary and March. So no UVB, radiant heat panel, one CHE for basking temps.
> Please give me any thoughts, good or bad and the one idea you think would be best. Tatum is 16 months old now, love of my life babcocki leopard.
> Thanks for all comments and /or suggestions.



My Guy is identical to yours sits off to the side does not sit under the lamp ever. I dont like this experiment.


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## wellington (Jul 5, 2012)

Sorry, I thought I was posting on my thread IS-THE-MVB-REALLY-BETTER-STRAIGHT-DOWN. I wouldn't have posted my lighting/heating ideas on this thread if I had know where I was, sorry. If a mod wants to ove it, by all means, go ahead. Again sorry


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