# Substrate staying too wet...



## Ivyna J. Spyder (Dec 20, 2010)

I'm using cypress mulch in my redfoot enclosure and in his hides. I pour water in it about every other day or so. I've read that what's supposed to happen is the lower layers stay wet, but the top layers stay dry, which prevents shell rot and things.

But in my case, it seems even the top layers stay wet! But if I don't pour any water in, then everything just gets bone dry. Misting alone isn't enough. It worries me because in his hides the top of the substrate stays especially wet and that's where he spends most of his time. :\

Is there anything I could maybe put over top of the substrate at least in those areas so he's not resting directly on it, but will still allow the water to evaporate out for humidity? Or should I keep up the humidity in the hides another way?


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## Edna (Dec 20, 2010)

How deep is your substrate? You might need to just add some more so it's thick enough to have a moisture differential.


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## Torty Mom (Dec 20, 2010)

Maybe use a tad less water? Just a thought!


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## Ivyna J. Spyder (Dec 20, 2010)

Torty Mom said:


> Maybe use a tad less water? Just a thought!



There's like thiiiis much > < difference between 'amount of water to get the humidity up' and 'amount of water that causes the substrate to become soaked'. Even a little amount of water seems to just soak right up to the top instead of staying down at the bottom like it should. :|

I'd say there's about 2 inches of substrate. I use a UTH so I don't want it too deep, too much insulation means no heat.

Really I think the problem would be solved with something over top that won't get wet, I just haven't found anything suitable.


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## moswen (Dec 20, 2010)

if your under tank heat emitter is the only source of heat you have? you should have a trex mvb bulb that produces uva/uvb and heat, or you should have a basking spot bulb or something. what type of uva/uvb do you provide? how big is your tank? while i believe a uth is a completely acceptable form of heat, your tortoise also needs heat from above. you should not be using a coil bulb it's very bad for reptile's eyes, and if you're using a powersun or exo terra mvb bulb then that should provide enough heat from the top, unless your enclosure is just huge. 

i don't know how big your Rf is, but rf's need more than 2 inches of substrate, don't you think? don't they like to dig?

also, the reason the substrate up top seems to stay so soaking wet, is bc an under tank heat emitter heats up the water from underneath, causing it to evaporate, so there will be lots of tiny little droplets floating up and clinging to the top of your substrate, and then moving up from there.


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## Millerlite (Dec 20, 2010)

I have kept box turtles for years, had them indoors outdoors, what i found: (side note: box turtles love humidity just like redfooted tortoises so this should work for you) I always used plain soil, and made it about 6-8 inches deep, the deeper you go the easier it will be to keep humidity up indoors. but what works is pouring water in with the soil, then mix it, keep doing this till its moist (not wet) all the way through. you should be able to dig anywhere in the enclosure and it should be moist enough to ball up. This helped out with humidity, the top layer will dry out but then you just turn the soil, and you would add water when necessary. this method always worked for me, when i raised my hatchling box turtles.


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## terryo (Dec 20, 2010)

I had the exact same problem and my Cherry Head got shell rot. Also I could never keep the humidity as high as I wanted it. This is when I changed everything. I also keep boxies, and if I had to keep any inside I would use potting soil, mixed with peat moss, plant lots of plants right in the little pots they came in, so when I watered the plants the substrate would stay reasonably dry. So I applied this concept to my Cherry Heads, since they basically have the same requirements. The shell rot went away, and now my humidity stays in the high 70's to low 80's all the time. I only use a heat emitter, and a long tube light fixture with a 10.0 UVB. Low light, and high warm humidity. I also mist the plants and the tort when he comes out to eat every day.


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## Millerlite (Dec 20, 2010)

Yup, box turtles and Redfooted tortoises are fun, lol. PS Terry you got a few more box turtles over the years, lol. Did you ever find the one that escaped last year?


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## Balboa (Dec 20, 2010)

I'm playing around with cypress mulch right now in some experiments Ivyna.

It does exactly what you say, the top always stays wet, not much to be done for it. It seems to wick up the water. To be honest any time the humidity is high, regardless of the nature of it, any substrate will likely be wet. We are pushing the air to "saturation" with redfoots, which means we're close to the dew point.

I don't think we really understand the nature of shell rot and its variants at this point, and wish we did. Both of my redfoots had shell rot when I acquired them. I treated both accordingly and they show signs of "healing" even though they remain on a moist substrate.

A few theories:
The Acidic nature of some substrates (possibly peet, coco coir, sphagnum moss) eats at the plastron.

Poor Health. An unhealthy tort may have poor plastron scutes (just like human nails can be of different strengths based on care and diet, so can scutes theoretically). Also an unhealthy tort may be unhappy, and spend too much time laying around on damp substrate, as opposed to walking around, letting their plastron air out.

Sterility. The sterile nature of the substrates preferred by most keepers may actually work against the plastron. In nature there may be beneficial bacteria or microbes that maintain scute health. In the absence of a natural balanced micro-culture, harmful microbes may flourish, like mold, and attack the plastron.

Coco Coir also seems to be the most heavily implicated substrate. It really likes to stick to the torts, and may stick to the plastron preventing drying.

As such many other factors may take part, diet and temperatures as well.


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## terryo (Dec 20, 2010)

Millerlite said:


> Yup, box turtles and Redfooted tortoises are fun, lol. PS Terry you got a few more box turtles over the years, lol. Did you ever find the one that escaped last year?



No Kyle,...I never found Izzy. I've always had boxies since I was a little girl, because my Dad had them before I was born. A few years ago I had to re-home all my box turtles for personal reasons. The last few years I have come back to having boxies, and I even got my old Ornate back who's over 32 years old. I love my tortoises, but boxies are my favorite.


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## Millerlite (Dec 20, 2010)

aww i wonder if hes still in your yard.. never know. and yeah i love box turtles, i want to get back into them, I use to have a bunch, over 30 at one point, lol.


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## PeanutbuttER (Dec 21, 2010)

I use cypress and it works out great for me. It does stay wet on the top in my hatchling enclosure, but while the chunks are wet it doesn't seem to "rub off" the wetness onto the tort. In other words my little hatchling is not sloshing around on the substrate and when I pull her out to look at her her plastron is dry. 

I think that one of the reasons why it doesn't dry out on the top layer for me is that there's not much of a basking spot to "cook" the soil dry and it's an enclosed enclosure so it retains humidity like no-one's business. For my larger RF i have a partially covered table with an MVB providing a very hot basking spot. In her enclosure the top visibly dries out in a couple days after soaking everything, but underneath it stays moist longer.


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