# Pyramiding is due to excess Heat, not lack of Humidity?



## AMMG

As posted today on Facebook. Apologies if this has been posted here already. 

http://www.exoticpetmedicine.com/article/S1557-5063(15)00185-8/fulltext#s0005

Beyond purely a cosmetic deformity, carapacial scute pyramiding (CSP) is of concern for tortoise health based on compromise of the associated neurologic, musculoskeletal, and internal organ structures of affected animals.

The authors hypothesized that the extended use of heat in captivity would increase CSP in juvenile leopard and spurred tortoises (in conjunction with increased growth rate).

Each group was placed in a 79-L black plastic mixing tub, with no substrate, on a 72-watt heated mat (model PHM28, Kane Manufacturing Co., Inc., Des Moines, IA USA) equivalent in size to the tub’s base. Treatment and control groups were set side by side. Treatment heat mats were connected to a 300-W rheostat (Kane Manufacturing Co., Inc., Des Moines, IA USA) plugged into a 110 outlet. Control heat mats were not plugged into an electrical outlet. A timer was used to provide heat mats with electricity throughout the night from 1900 to 0700.

*Comparison of these treatment and control groups revealed significantly greater pyramid height (P < 0.05) for tortoises in the treatment groups.*

The authorsʼ speculate that an unnatural growth rate may lead to the deposition of material between scutes faster than the shell can spread, leading to a conical upgrowth of carapacial scutes (convex upheaval).

Nutritional and environmental variables are interrelated in dictating proper or improper growth in tortoises.

Metabolic rates are directly affected by environmental temperature,13and prolonged heat in a captive environment accelerates growth in African leopard and spurred tortoises.

*Although humidity and nutrition have been shown to be related to CSP, this study demonstrated a significant difference in pyramiding when humidity and offered diet were not different between treatment and control groups.*

Chelonians are dependent on heating and cooling cycles for optimal metabolism and subsequent growth. Application of nocturnal heat increases growth rate and CSP in captive-raised leopard and spurred tortoises.


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## julietteq

Very interesting indeed !


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## Yvonne G

It was too much for my little pea brain to absorb, so I just skimmed, but were any of the animals in the study smooth? I have raised smooth babies, as have many on here, using the humid method.


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## AMMG

Hatchlings were separated into 2 groups: one using an overnight heat mat (93 F), the other with no overnight artificial heat (66F). 

Humidity was the same for both groups at 36%. 

The group with overnight heat developed pyramiding. The group with no overnight heat grew smooth.

The study used Leopards and Sulcatas.


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## Anyfoot

AMMG said:


> Hatchlings were separated into 2 groups: one using an overnight heat mat (93 F), the other with no overnight artificial heat (66F).
> 
> Humidity was the same for both groups at 36%.
> 
> The group with overnight heat developed pyramiding. The group with no overnight heat grew smooth.
> 
> The study used Leopards and Sulcatas.



I read it as they all had heat mats on at night and the controlled group had no heat mat on in the day, just room temp at 29c.


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## AMMG

Anyfoot said:


> I read it as they all had heat mats on at night and the controlled group had no heat mat on in the day, just room temp at 29c.



"Each group was placed in a 79-L black plastic mixing tub, with no substrate, on a 72-watt heated mat (model PHM28, Kane Manufacturing Co., Inc., Des Moines, IA USA) equivalent in size to the tub’s base. Treatment and control groups were set side by side. Treatment heat mats were connected to a 300-W rheostat (Kane Manufacturing Co., Inc., Des Moines, IA USA) plugged into a 110 outlet. *Control heat mats were not plugged into an electrical outlet. A timer was used to provide heat mats with electricity throughout the night from 1900 to 0700.* Room temperature was controlled using a Honeywell TH600 series programmable thermostat (17°C from 1900 to 0700 and 29°C from 0700 to 1900). Fluorescent room lights (40 W, General Electric, Cleveland, OH USA) were also on a 12-hour on-off cycle (on from 0700 to 1900)."

The control group was called the "no heat group" throughout the article. The control group's mats not being plugged in to an outlet indicates to me they were always off.


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## Anyfoot

AMMG said:


> "Each group was placed in a 79-L black plastic mixing tub, with no substrate, on a 72-watt heated mat (model PHM28, Kane Manufacturing Co., Inc., Des Moines, IA USA) equivalent in size to the tub’s base. Treatment and control groups were set side by side. Treatment heat mats were connected to a 300-W rheostat (Kane Manufacturing Co., Inc., Des Moines, IA USA) plugged into a 110 outlet. *Control heat mats were not plugged into an electrical outlet. A timer was used to provide heat mats with electricity throughout the night from 1900 to 0700.* Room temperature was controlled using a Honeywell TH600 series programmable thermostat (17°C from 1900 to 0700 and 29°C from 0700 to 1900). Fluorescent room lights (40 W, General Electric, Cleveland, OH USA) were also on a 12-hour on-off cycle (on from 0700 to 1900)."
> 
> The control group was called the "no heat group" throughout the article. The control group's mats not being plugged in to an outlet indicates to me they were always off.


The controlled group were on a timer instead of the rheostat, the timer comes on between 1900 to 0700(through the night). Re-read it please. I read it the same as you at 1st. I'm happy to be wrong, happens every day in our house . Please re-read and let me know what you think.


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## AMMG

That paragraph was poorly written. If we look at the rest of the article, we can see that the key variable between the treatment and control groups was over night / nocturnal temperature.

Abstract states: The results of this research investigation indicate that growth rate and CSP appear to be directly related and both increase with excess nocturnal heat.

Conclusion states: Application of nocturnal heat increases growth rate and CSP in captive-raised leopard and spurred tortoises.


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## Anyfoot

AMMG said:


> That paragraph was poorly written. If we look at the rest of the article, we can see that the key variable between the treatment and control groups was over night / nocturnal temperature.
> 
> Abstract states: The results of this research investigation indicate that growth rate and CSP appear to be directly related and both increase with excess nocturnal heat.
> 
> Conclusion states: Application of nocturnal heat increases growth rate and CSP in captive-raised leopard and spurred tortoises.



mmmmm, I need to re-read the whole article tomorrow. Brain is hurting.


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## popeye tortoise

Thank you so much for this information. I do not have half of the knowledge that most keepers do on this forum. I am always following but do not have much in-put. Please if you could explain it laymen terms. I am dealing with some pyramiding know with a young Aldabra. And I would like to make the best decision for my tortoise.
Thank all


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## Anyfoot

popeye tortoise said:


> Thank you so much for this information. I do not have half of the knowledge that most keepers do on this forum. I am always following but do not have much in-put. Please if you could explain it laymen terms. I am dealing with some pyramiding know with a young Aldabra. And I would like to make the best decision for my tortoise.
> Thank all


 Keep him/her humid.


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## Anyfoot

AMMG said:


> That paragraph was poorly written. If we look at the rest of the article, we can see that the key variable between the treatment and control groups was over night / nocturnal temperature.
> 
> Abstract states: The results of this research investigation indicate that growth rate and CSP appear to be directly related and both increase with excess nocturnal heat.
> 
> Conclusion states: Application of nocturnal heat increases growth rate and CSP in captive-raised leopard and spurred tortoises.


 Either way with this experiment, its a parameter that points to fast growth not being good. In this case it's heat. Mmmm. Does it say anywhere that they all eat exactly the same amount of food. If they turned the controlled subjects heat off at night, I would have thought they would not eat as much the following day. If so would this falsify 'it's just the heat' that forced growth. If they were all kept above the digestive systems temperature requirements through the night, the food intake would be more on par for both groups. 
Also not letting them cool at night eliminates health issues aslong as the highs in the day don't exceed upper limits. 

Bedtime.


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## AMMG

This study suggests excess temperature and related quick growth - not low humidity - is the key factor that results in pyramiding.

I realize many have raised smooth tortoises in using humidity / soaks, but perhaps they also had their temperatures correct, and it was the temperatures and not the humidity that produced smooth shells. Humidity tends to bring temperatures down, so the relationship is there.

To me this makes sense. Tortoises don't soak themselves daily in the wild. Greek torts hides and burrows in the wild typically have only 50% humidity at most. I imagine this is the case with other wild tortoises especially in warmer climates. But tortoises do deal with a wide range of temperature variations and nightly drops in temperature.


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## Anyfoot

AMMG said:


> This study suggests excess temperature and related quick growth - not low humidity - is the key factor that results in pyramiding.
> 
> I realize many have raised smooth tortoises in using humidity / soaks, but perhaps they also had their temperatures correct, and it was the temperatures and not the humidity that produced smooth shells. Humidity tends to bring temperatures down, so the relationship is there.
> 
> To me this makes sense. Tortoises don't soak themselves daily in the wild. Greek torts hides and burrows in the wild typically have only 50% humidity at most. I imagine this is the case with other wild tortoises especially in warmer climates. But tortoises do deal with a wide range of temperature variations and nightly drops in temperature.


 Yes, the study is about excess temps forcing growth. My point is, it doesn't matter what forces the growth, the outcome is the same. So. Overfeeding, too many forced soaks, wrong diet and temperatures all can result in excelling the growth rate. I don't soak my juvies unless it's just to clean em for this reason. More poop= more food= fast growth. 
What I'm saying is , inadvertently by keeping a tort too warm constantly, surely it naturally eats more adding to the fast growth rate and diluting the just a 'temperature' theory.


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## Tom

Umm… Its hot in Africa where they come from. Hot day and night.

And what about Arizona, Hawaii, New Orleans and South FL where they all grow smooth and its hot all the time in summer?

So if we leave our tropical torts at room temp all the time, and don't feed them, they won't pyramid. Okay. Got it. Moving on now.


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## Anyfoot

Tom said:


> Umm… Its hot in Africa where they come from. Hot day and night.
> 
> And what about Arizona, Hawaii, New Orleans and South FL where they all grow smooth and its hot all the time in summer?
> 
> So if we leave our tropical torts at room temp all the time, and don't feed them, they won't pyramid. Okay. Got it. Moving on now.


Tom. Do you think the forced soaking can be over done?


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## Anyfoot

Tom said:


> Umm… Its hot in Africa where they come from. Hot day and night.
> 
> And what about Arizona, Hawaii, New Orleans and South FL where they all grow smooth and its hot all the time in summer?
> 
> So if we leave our tropical torts at room temp all the time, and don't feed them, they won't pyramid. Okay. Got it. Moving on now.


I just re-read my last post, may have come across wrong. There is no way I'm suggesting leave torts at room temp. I was trying to say, if they are at lower temps this must effect the apitite, thus making it seem that they don't grow as fast due to temps, but less food intake plays a role too, not the heat.


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## AMMG

Tom said:


> Umm… Its hot in Africa where they come from. Hot day and night.
> 
> And what about Arizona, Hawaii, New Orleans and South FL where they all grow smooth and its hot all the time in summer?
> 
> So if we leave our tropical torts at room temp all the time, and don't feed them, they won't pyramid. Okay. Got it. Moving on now.



Um... the Sahel region, native to Sulcatas and Leopards, has significant night temperature drops year round. Average temperature drops from daytime 28C to 14C at night in the winter months. 

The study did not say anything about room temperature or not feeding them, I don't know what you're on about. 

Control group was raised mostly outside under the sun, indoors when need be at 30C, overnight at 19C, with humidity around 30%, and they did not pyramid.


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## AMMG

Anyfoot said:


> Yes, the study is about excess temps forcing growth. My point is, it doesn't matter what forces the growth, the outcome is the same. So. Overfeeding, too many forced soaks, wrong diet and temperatures all can result in excelling the growth rate. I don't soak my juvies unless it's just to clean em for this reason. More poop= more food= fast growth.
> What I'm saying is , inadvertently by keeping a tort too warm constantly, surely it naturally eats more adding to the fast growth rate and diluting the just a 'temperature' theory.



Yes. The study argues forced quick growth = pyramiding. Overnight heat is one way you get there.


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## Anyfoot

AMMG said:


> Um... the Sahel region, native to Sulcatas and Leopards, has significant night temperature drops year round. Average temperature drops from daytime 28C to 14C at night in the winter months.
> 
> The study did not say anything about room temperature or not feeding them, I don't know what you're on about.
> 
> Control group was raised mostly outside under the sun, indoors when need be at 30C, overnight at 19C, with humidity around 30%, and they did not pyramid.


I was under the impression that when night temps drop after a hot day, dew forms, them the following morning when it heats up again it becomes very humid whilst the dew evaporates. If that is correct and this study was done in low humidity and leaving heat on with low humidity, it would encourage pyramiding.


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> Tom. Do you think the forced soaking can be over done?



There is no force involved in my tortoise soaking, so I reject that polarizing term.

Yes soaking can be over done. If you left a tortoise in water 24/7, I think that would be too much. Daily soaks for an hour, can do no harm.


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## Tom

AMMG said:


> Um... the Sahel region, native to Sulcatas and Leopards, has significant night temperature drops year round. Average temperature drops from daytime 28C to 14C at night in the winter months.
> 
> The study did not say anything about room temperature or not feeding them, I don't know what you're on about.
> 
> Control group was raised mostly outside under the sun, indoors when need be at 30C, overnight at 19C, with humidity around 30%, and they did not pyramid.




Show me a study that says it gets any where near 14 degrees C in an _underground_ sulcata burrow in the Sahel region.

THAT is what I'm on about. More "science" that contradicts years of what we already know and thousands of successful examples to the contrary.


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## Tom

AMMG said:


> Um... the Sahel region, native to Sulcatas and Leopards, has significant night temperature drops year round. Average temperature drops from daytime 28C to 14C at night in the winter months.
> 
> The study did not say anything about room temperature or not feeding them, I don't know what you're on about.
> 
> Control group was raised mostly outside under the sun, indoors when need be at 30C, overnight at 19C, with humidity around 30%, and they did not pyramid.



I'm looking at the current weather in 6 cities that are closest to the current existing known range of the sulcata, according to "The Crying Tortoise". Been following the weather in these areas since 2011. The five day forecast shows daytime highs from 99F to 107F over the next five days. Nighttime lows, 2 meters above ground at these weather recording stations, are listed from a low of 69 in Matam to as high as 82 in Nyala.

Tell me. When your outdoor temps mimic these temps in summer here in North America, what is the overnight low in your underground sulcata bunkers? Mine don't get down to 14C. Mine don't drop below 26C.


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## Yvonne G

Not arguing, Tom, but just giving you something to think about. No one knows where the baby sulcatas are. But my GUESS is that they aren't down in burrows, but rather more above ground, under bushes, rocks, etc. So the drop in nighttime temp and dew theory might hold some merit???

(and please be consistent in your farenheit/celcius quotes for those of us who have to Google the exchange)


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## motero

I like faster growth! And hydration is still key to them growing smooth. Have them redo the study with high humidity, water dishes, and daily soaks. I bet they would all turn out smooth and the ones with night time heat would be larger, stronger, and pass out of the fragile hatchling stage sooner. It is nice to see people trying to figure out how to better care for tortoises, we need a lot more studies like this by the "Scientists" every study is an eye opener and we can learn from it. Ill keep growing mine smooth and fast and hydrated.


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## Tom

Yvonne G said:


> Not arguing, Tom, but just giving you something to think about. No one knows where the baby sulcatas are. But my GUESS is that they aren't down in burrows, but rather more above ground, under bushes, rocks, etc. So the drop in nighttime temp and dew theory might hold some merit???
> 
> (and please be consistent in your farenheit/celcius quotes for those of us who have to Google the exchange)



Fair enough, but did anyone need a study to tell us that if you raise a baby sulcata in a dry enclosure with no substrate on a heat mat that it would pyramid? I didn't.

What value does that have? Is anyone ever going to raise one that way?

New subject: Lets talk about cold night temps. How many babies have you seen come down with RIs due to cold temps, even back in the old days when we kept them dry on rabbit pellets with no water bowl? I've seen lots.


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## Tom

motero said:


> I like faster growth! And hydration is still key to them growing smooth. Have them redo the study with high humidity, water dishes, and daily soaks. I bet they would all turn out smooth and the ones with night time heat would be larger, stronger, and pass out of the fragile hatchling stage sooner. It is nice to see people trying to figure out how to better care for tortoises, we need a lot more studies like this by the "Scientists" every study is an eye opener and we can learn from it. Ill keep growing mine smooth and fast and hydrated.



Good points. Very good way to look at this.


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## Markw84

I think the conclusions of this study are flawed or being overstated in the post...

They did not say the control group was smooth at all. There was simply a slightly greater pyramid height measurable in the heated group - 0.05 - which is measurable but very slight.

They did not state the growth differences in the groups, except the heat promoted faster growth.

More growth would also lead to the pyramid growing proportionately more - which is what they found. 0.05 is not much and I would bet the heated group grew much more than 0.05 larger in overall growth. So why wouldn't the pyramid expected grow more as well - since they were growing both groups in dry conditions that we know would promote pyramiding - whether fast or slow??

If they want to conclude heat as an isolated factor will contribute to pyramiding, they need to show they need to show the control group grew SMOOTHER, not just that their pyramiding grew LESS. The whole control group grew less overall.


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## Yvonne G

Markw84 said:


> They did not say the control group was smooth at all.



See? That was the point I was trying to make. I wanted to see pictures of the smoother tortoises. But I'll bet they were just not as pyramided as the other group.

.


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## Merrick

This needs to be tested by more than one group to gather data from a larger pool also one with cooler temp torts like testudos


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## DutchieAmanda

If relative humidity was the same, but the temps were lower in the control group, the absolute humidity was higher. Warm air can hold more moisture. So although relative humidity was the same, absolute humidity differed between groups. Could also be a factor maybe?


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## domalle

There were side by side photos comparing the control to the treatment groups included in the paper.
The results are clear and worthy of consideration.
How many times have I seen posts on the forum decrying veteran keeper resistance to new information?
Thank you, AMMG.


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## AMMG




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## keepergale

Is this a picture of the cooler slow growers on the left and the warmer fast growers in the right?


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## AMMG

keepergale said:


> Is this a picture of the cooler slow growers on the left and the warmer fast growers in the right?



Yes.


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## Kapidolo Farms

It is not a threshold study IMO. It is a semi indication that a better study could shed some light, but I bet we will never see that better study, as most will read it critically and that will end further interest. But I also think that of the now famous "Austrian" study, is only a good indication.

Lots of these studies seem to be a way to 'doing something' with readily available resources (grad students) and a quirky sense of inquiry. My wife is much better at evaluating study design, and her comment on the Austrian study was that they didn't do a good job setting up their variables. I have not talked her into reading this newer study. I predict her first comment would be "No substrate?"

That they are all treated the same is not the same thing as they are all equal in evaluation. The outside time was not well enough monitored. Could be the warm or cool animals exploited that resource in a way that is the variable resulting in the difference, not the night time heat. They should have been left in the one enclosure 24/7, been held in smaller groups for replication but counted such that pseudo-replication could creep into the analysis.

I work on dozens of live animal experiments where all is held constant but one variable. These guys had too many things going on at once and to many mystery (compounded) factors can account for the result.

One simple thing to reduce these potential compounding matters would have been to feed a single commercial pellet. Then it's just quantity consumed as a mystery variable. Feed them all individually twice a day and watch actual food consumption quantity, and then I might start to be a believer. If there was a significant difference in one groups consumption to the other that might be backed out, or it may be the explanation in combination with the night time temp.

Like any profession @Tom there are good ones better ones and then the left side of the bell curve. I bet you know a few animal trainers that aren't so good too. That doesn't mean they are all on the left side of the curve. Please don't besmirch all science because of a loose study here and there.


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## Tom

Will said:


> Like any profession @Tom there are good ones better ones and then the left side of the bell curve. I bet you know a few animal trainers that aren't so good too. That doesn't mean they are all on the left side of the curve. Please don't besmirch all science because of a loose study here and there.



I would never besmirch all science. I'm a fan of science. What I besmirch is people looking for evidence to support a claim while ignoring the obvious mountain of evidence right in front of them.

I appreciate you pointing out the obvious flaws in this study.

My point is this: Pyramiding is _caused_ by growth in conditions that are too dry. How does that relate to this study? Forced slow growth due to lack of food or inappropriately low temperatures for a given species results in slower pyramiding. Worded another way: No growth = No pyramiding. Faster growth = Faster pyramiding.

… I really need to invest the time to read this study.


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## Anyfoot

AMMG said:


> View attachment 167304


What are members opinions on how smooth the 2 on left-hand side(controlled) are. 
It would be interesting to see the controlled subjects at the same size as the treatment subjects if kept under the same conditions as they were in this study.


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## Cowboy_Ken

Beyond purely a cosmetic deformity, carapacial scute pyramiding (CSP) is of concern for tortoise health based on compromise of the associated neurologic, musculoskeletal, and internal organ structures of affected animals.
@AMMG IS NOT TO BE TAKEN AS THE ADVOCATE FOR THIS HERE REPORT! Simply the the passer on of the information to us. AMMG should not feel the need to defend nor agree with this fun and stimulating information anymore than I should feel the need to defend COORS ORIGINAL as the proper beer to drink. Just simply saying, Take it personally easy on AMMG for bringing this study to our attention. 
On a personal note, thanks AMMG for the heads up.


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## wellington

Cowboy_Ken said:


> Beyond purely a cosmetic deformity, carapacial scute pyramiding (CSP) is of concern for tortoise health based on compromise of the associated neurologic, musculoskeletal, and internal organ structures of affected animals.
> @AMMG IS NOT TO BE TAKEN AS THE ADVOCATE FOR THIS HERE REPORT! Simply the the passer on of the information to us. AMMG should not feel the need to defend nor agree with this fun and stimulating information anymore than I should feel the need to defend COORS ORIGINAL as the proper beer to drink. Just simply saying, Take it personally easy on AMMG for bringing this study to our attention.
> On a personal note, thanks AMMG for the heads up.


I 1000% agree with this. Appreciate the effort of the OP for passing this study on. Remember, it's not their personal study and it gives more to think about and to realize more needs to be figured out. Also, nothing works 100% of the time, I have a hatchling to prove it. I believe there is much more in play then what has been studied and tested.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Thanks much to AMMG for bringing this here to ruminate over. I just heard of this study recently, and had not yet sourced it. It makes me wonder if the whole point of this kind of study is to create dialogue (here and elsewhere) to push the overall inquiry of pyramiding and tortoise husbandry forward.

There is a great deal of anecdotal evidence that 'belly' heat is not so desirable, but it is difficult to tease apart this heating method from other potentially poor husbandry practices or even if moderate belly heat is okay, versus heat that is not moderated with a thermostat.

I often had hoped when I was at the zoos I worked at to sort some of these kinds of things out and get the info out there so the mighty number of private breeders could get a unequivocal positive benefit from the zoo community, not hand picked buddies here and there. It seems the Behler Center, The TSA facility (as two examples) and elsewhere need to do this more controlled testing to move the whole of the idea of 'assurance colonies' forward, and then freely share the sorted out practice. There is risk of poor study quality resulting in a cohort of bad husbandry effort by the private breeders, or private breeders poorly implementing the message of the study.

On the other hand the whole idea of UV lighting came out of a zoo collection and was widely shared and now is a big part of what indoor keepers rely on for husbandry. Although the CFL seemed to be a miss-step.

Many great successes out there with the semi-private collections or amalgamation of collections with breeding expensive animals and showing them off as a discrete sales platform. Good job. If you have an interest in the preservation of the species, a bit of the "how I did this would be good".

To that end many folks here are TFO are exemplary, thank you. I'll give @Tom the TFO Citizen Scientists award for sharing openly what he does.


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## TurtleBug

No matter what the flaws of this study are, it's still interesting to read. AMMG, thank you for posting it.

In the last few years, there's been a lot of talk about artificial OVERHEAD heat sources drying up / burning the carapace and contributing to / causing pyramiding.

In this study the night heat was provided by bottom heat mats, not with overhead heat. So there was no direct heat to the top of the carapace, yet the extra heat caused them to pyramid more (and, of couse, to grow faster since the metabolism was revved up.)

..

Ps. I couldn't access the full text study at the original link, but I found it here
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/15575063
Scroll down to the article and open the pdf.


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## Kapidolo Farms

TurtleBug said:


> No matter what the flaws of this study are, it's still interesting to read. AMMG, thank you for posting it.
> 
> In the last few years, there's been a lot of talk about artificial OVERHEAD heat sources drying up / burning the carapace and contributing to / causing pyramiding.
> 
> In this study the night heat was provided by bottom heat mats, not with overhead heat. So there was no direct heat to the top of the carapace, yet the extra heat caused them to pyramid more (and, of couse, to grow faster since the metabolism was revved up.)
> 
> ..
> 
> Ps. I couldn't access the full text study at the original link, but I found it here
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/15575063
> Scroll down to the article and open the pdf.




That's the dealio about the discussion. The correlation between "cause Bottom Heat", and "effect Pyramiding" is NOT established in this study. It is at best inferred. There were too many other variables not accounted for, the biggy is food intake both in quantity and choice. This study is also just as strong an indication of growth rate and pyramiding as it is heat source and pyramiding. These factors are not well sorted out. It seems to me (my guess) the heat overnight allowed more food to be digested faster - resulting in faster growth in an environment without the 'best' level of humidity to support that faster growth. Digestive enzymes work better at different temperatures. The one better still for the experiment would have been to monitor the food intake, and then actually do an analysis on the feces to see if there was some significant difference in nutrients utilized between the two groups. 

If you want to say 'well what about in nature'. Consider this. In a series of years with more abundant food and faster growth, that more abundant food came with more rain, more vegetative overgrowth so more humid hides at slightly warmer temps to support all that vegetative growth and resulting tortoise growth.

The overhead heat source that has been teased apart are the fraction of heat lamps (small parts of the IR range) that are in nature (normally) filtered out by atmospheric water, and those fractions NOT being filtered out in an enclosure. When you stop to think about it is a very rational consideration. That is the very fractions of the IR filtered by water (in the atmosphere) are reaching the shell and damaging (evaporating) the water right out of the shell (in an enclosure). So that is why a few folks have moved away from IR lamps. I have gone much more to indirect heat from mats. They still produce some of those undesirable parts of the IR, but much much less than IR lamps.


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## domalle

Even accounting for alleged deficiencies and all too easy armchair critique,
this seems a well-designed and carefully constructed study.
Introduction of a substrate, and of what kind, would have added other levels of variable to consider
and contributed to further possible pollution of results.
Drops in temperature at night are just one more factor to consider.
Multiple factors contribute to pyramiding. Humidity and lubrication are prominent ones.
So are avoidance of overfeeding and accelerated growth.


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## TurtleBug

Will said:


> That's the dealio about the discussion. The correlation between "cause Bottom Heat", and "effect Pyramiding" is NOT established in this study. It is at best inferred. There were too many other variables not accounted for, the biggy is food intake both in quantity and choice. This study is also just as strong an indication of growth rate and pyramiding as it is heat source and pyramiding. These factors are not well sorted out. s.



Ok, Will, the word "caused" was not the best choice. I would be happy to use "possibly", "seemed", "maybe", "could have", "seemingly", etc. etc.    My point was more about the type of heat source used.


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## Kapidolo Farms

domalle said:


> Even accounting for alleged deficiencies and all too easy armchair critique,
> this seems a well-designed and carefully constructed study.





domalle said:


> Armchair only in as much as I did not design or work the study, not armchair in that, I do design and implement animal based studies daily.
> 
> Introduction of a substrate, and of what kind, would have added other levels of variable to consider
> and contributed to further possible pollution of results.
> 
> Not so if used for all replicates in the study. They were outside on soil everyday, that as a variable is uniform across both groups. That they had no substrate inside was constant as well. I don't agree with it as a husbandry issue and if treated equally across all groups it is not a variable between groups.
> 
> Drops in temperature at night are just one more factor to consider.
> 
> I don't think they are ascribing the temperature change itself so much as they are ascribing the physical proximity of the heat. Had they used overhead heat in a third group, and the bottom heat and overhead heat had the statistically same result, then we could say that overnight heat contribute to pyramiding as a means for the tortoises to seek and eat more food. grow faster and that is a contributor to pyramiding in light of these other factors we did not monitor i.e. food intake and quality/nutrient utilization.
> 
> Multiple factors contribute to pyramiding.
> 
> Yes, I agree.
> 
> Humidity and lubrication are prominent ones.
> 
> Lubrication? If you mean coconut oil, that mitigates the IR spectrum issue already discussed, it mediates what could be considered a less than optimal husbandry practice sorted out by @lilacdragon and now further studied by others. One solve is to keep using heat sources that desiccate the shell and mitigate it with coconut oil. Another solve is to not use those IR sources.
> 
> So are avoidance of overfeeding and accelerated growth.




Over feeding, which in the wild, is over eating is a primary response to an abundance of food. In the wild this is balanced with other factors and likely contributes to some types of selection. In the short term that selection is which species lives where, and in the long term it is the collection of alleles that change the species. Some would argue that collection of alleles can also have a short term result.

The very nature of my thesis for tortoise ecology (a graduate degree thesis not a thought experiment) was regarding neutral theory/niche competition and resource abundance for tortoises that live in mixed species populations. These are real things that happen in the wild with tortoises. How do tortoises end up in mixed species communities through high and low resource abundance? Those that overeat, avoid depredation (risk of exposure while out eating the over-abundance), and lay more eggs will fill niche space better than those that don't overeat and produce fewer eggs. This is constrained by cover and and quality egg sites and timing and occurrence of neonate emergence and survival. 

So overeating and use of resources is how in some populations one species may, over a long time, out-compete other species in localized space/time. 

It is overfeeding if it is not balanced feeding. Balance is the types/qualities of the food, or the supporting husbandry for it. The study shows a lack of balance between food resources/quality and supporting husbandry. The pyramiding is the result of unsupported abundance of and otherwise limiting resource "food". Higher food abundance can work if a corresponding suite of other resources are there to support it.

The number of experiments demonstrating this simple relationship among resources for growing things is huge. Many older high-school biology labs would use algae, N,P and K in mason jars on a shelf near a window to demonstrate this.

There is value in the experiment that AMMG posted. I don't find that value in a demonstration of causal effect of bottom heat to pyramiding.


----------



## domalle

Will said:


> Over feeding, which in the wild, is over eating is a primary response to an abundance of food. In the wild this is balanced with other factors and likely contributes to some types of selection. In the short term that selection is which species lives where, and in the long term it is the collection of alleles that change the species. Some would argue that collection of alleles can also have a short term result.
> 
> The very nature of my thesis for tortoise ecology (a graduate degree thesis not a thought experiment) was regarding neutral theory/niche competition and resource abundance for tortoises that live in mixed species populations. These are real things that happen in the wild with tortoises. How do tortoises end up in mixed species communities through high and low resource abundance? Those that overeat, avoid depredation (risk of exposure while out eating the over-abundance), and lay more eggs will fill niche space better than those that don't overeat and produce fewer eggs. This is constrained by cover and and quality egg sites and timing and occurrence of neonate emergence and survival.
> 
> So overeating and use of resources is how in some populations one species may, over a long time, out-compete other species in localized space/time.
> 
> It is overfeeding if it is not balanced feeding. Balance is the types/qualities of the food, or the supporting husbandry for it. The study shows a lack of balance between food resources/quality and supporting husbandry. The pyramiding is the result of unsupported abundance of and otherwise limiting resource "food". Higher food abundance can work if a corresponding suite of other resources are there to support it.
> 
> The number of experiments demonstrating this simple relationship among resources for growing things is huge. Many older high-school biology labs would use algae, N,P and K in mason jars on a shelf near a window to demonstrate this.
> 
> There is value in the experiment that AMMG posted. I don't find that value in a demonstration of causal effect of bottom heat to pyramiding.





Will said:


>


----------



## domalle

My comments were partly a response to what I interpreted as angry and heated rejection to the contribution of a new member
and the discouraging effect of such reactions to the further participation of newcomers to the forum.

I did not mean to impugn your standing as a positive and professional contributor through an admittedly poor choice of phrasing.

My apologies. You are only guilty of reliably providing measured and always balanced input.

By 'lubrication' I was referring to the positive effects of humidity on the physiology of shell growth and formation.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

domalle said:


> My comments were partly a response to what I interpreted as angry and heated rejection to the contribution of a new member
> and the discouraging effect of such reactions to the further participation of newcomers to the forum.
> 
> I did not mean to impugn your standing as a positive and professional contributor through an admittedly poor choice of phrasing.
> 
> My apologies. You are only guilty of reliably providing measured and always balanced input.
> 
> By 'lubrication' I was referring to the positive effects of humidity on the physiology of shell growth and formation.



You are right on that - water is the universal lubricant. I have begun to think it your be interesting to somehow measure the stuff on the shells of tortoises in regards to IR influence. It is my understanding that the sun's role in calcium/D3 is on the skin, so the shell's role for that may or may not be vital. Several people have seen tortoises throwing soil on their own shell with back sweeping motions of the front legs, and at least some vegetable oil may accumulate on the shell of species that spend time hunkered under living or dead plants. Both of these activities may reduce the desiccation effect of the sun while still allowing the tortoise to get heat. I sunscreen of sorts. If only to get a job doing this kind of research instead of oncology with rodents. What to do.

Fun thread, I hope I did not discourage any interest. I'm glad you carried the thread as you have.


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## donmacho

Can you see her little pyramid?
She pyramided only when she was kept in dry substrate( dry pellet/dry hay).

85 Temprature(day/night) 50ish humidity for 5years.

http://zarata.blog66.fc2.com/
It is Japanese blog but you can still see the pics maybe.

I will keep my little one high humidity and warm night.(I like Tom's method)


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## donmacho

RHP also damage skin by alot btw.
I learn it from my frogs.

if your tortoise like to stay outside of hide box and takes direct heat from the panel for long time per day.
it damage the shell I think.


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## Yvonne G

AMMG said:


> View attachment 167304



This is not a good example picture. They should have used the same species of tortoise for both sides. The testudos on the left don't pyramid as readily as the sulcatas and leopards do.


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## WithLisa

Yvonne G said:


> This is not a good example picture. They should have used the same species of tortoise for both sides. The testudos on the left don't pyramid as readily as the sulcatas and leopards do.


Did you quote the wrong picture? I can't see any testudos. 
"Representative African leopard tortoises (top) and spurred tortoises (bottom) from control (left) and treatment (right) groups at the completion of the experiment."


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## mark1

it's been a long time since i raised any tortoises , and they were red foots , and they did show some pyramiding . i attributed it to diet and growth , but i didn't know much about them ...... i did raise some elongateds , and they didn't pyramid ....... 

i am pretty sure one of the larger remaining populations of wild sulcatas is in southwest niger in and around parc du w ? in this area the weather and climate information is available for a few places like la tapoa , and diney ..... if we had those kind of precip numbers in ohio we'd be in a constant state of water deficit/drought , at least the monthly weather averages i looked at ..... honestly their humidity averages also make ohio look like a swamp .... 

a tortoise you see pyramided all the time are radiated tortoises , i read one time they find wild radiated tortoises that are pyramided ... those individuals are said to be ones that are known to be feeding on some kind of high calorie , high sugar fruit artificially introduced to madagascar ..... which would lead one , at least me , to believe diet does play some part in it ...... i don't doubt humidity and temp also play a part .....i do realize within any enviroment there are micro-climates , and often the wildlife that survives are the ones who find these micro-climates ........ i think good anecdotal evidence often times makes a lot more sense than some of those "scientific" conclusions ..... not that there aren't good studies , but there are some blatantly ridiculous ones too .... jmo


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## Gillian M

An interesting subject. Thanks for sharing.


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## BrianWI

I kind of look at it right now as humidity is the cure for other variables that cause pyramiding. So, for captive raised tortoises, this becomes the best way to do it. Proven. Perhaps there are other ways of doing it (lower heat, less food, etc.). But since I have one pet tortoise and not a gaggle of them to experiment on, I will use the wet method of raising her knowing it is the best thing I can do with the lowest risk of pyramiding.

The study in this post was really poorly designed. I wouldn't give it much value. Too many uncontrolled variables to make a reliable conclusion.


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## mctlong

Fascinating article! I would love to have seen them measure the surface humidity rather than the approx. 3cm above surface humidity. I suspect that heating pad is drying out the soil at night and hatchlings don't sleep 3cm above the surface.


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## Markw84

Its been four months now since I first read this study. Seeing it again brings me to post my take on this...

I have come to believe through all my trial and error, all the things I read and study, all the experiments done - heat, no heat, night heat, no night heat, fast growth, slow growth, higher protein, more calcium, better UVB, on, and on, and on - all to me only fit one basic take on this. I can't imagine a variable that hasn't been tried, yet all do fit one conclusion. Pyramiding is seen when you have high metabolism triggered WITHOUT humidity. If you give the tortoise higher heat and more food, without humidity, you will get Pyramiding.

If I think about the tortoise in its natural environment, they ENDURE periods of food scarcity, and hot, dry weather. They basically stop growing and estivate during these periods to survive - waiting for the time to thrive. When the monsoons come, they have ample food with the rains and humidity. They grow in those conditions. They don't grow in food-scarce, dry conditions. It's really logical - food is available when it is wetter allowing the food to grow. So warm + humid = grow time. In dry times, the food dries up, and tortoises stop growing. It's when we create an artificial condition they would never see naturally in their home environments that we see pyramiding. We provide ample food and heat & UVB in DRY conditions. We get their metabolism going, yet without one key ingredient - proper hydration. So they grow, but don't grow naturally.

Sulcatas seem to follow this patter the most strictly. It seems where they come from, when it dries up, there is no water available, nor food, so they go in a real slow or no growth mode in those dry times. If you look at leopards and stars, some do get pyramided in the wild. But they also come from areas where it may end up a dry year, but water sources may linger longer into dry periods, and I believe you would see tortoises especially growing their first few years through abnormally dry years - actually finding food and growing in dry conditions - and pyramiding.

3 1/2 months ago now I got a group of Burmese Stars from the Behler Center. Their philosophy is to purposely slow grow their Star tortoises a bit along the belief that fast growth would lead to more pyramiding. I got them and they were pretty significantly pyramided and quite small for their age. So despite purposeful slow growth in conditions meant to more mimic a natural environment temperature wise - They pyramided. The humidity in their enclosures was always quite low. They do keep other species in greenhouses with controlled humidity, but the Burmese are kept drier. The average weight of the goup when they arrived was 454.2 grams despite being just over 5 years old. I have since convinced them the monsoon season has finally arrived, with a closed chamber I posted my build in that was a basic copy of @Tom 's chambers. So in 3 1/2 months the group had now averaged adding 301.8 grams! So the average for the group was going from 454 g (in five years) to 756 g in 3 1/2 more months. So, I grew them too fast and they will surely pyramid after 5 years of a set growth pattern - right? NO! All the new growth is coming in flat. Here's a picture I just went out to take of the growth pattern you can see in one of them...





For me this continues to confirm that fast growth has nothing to do with pyramiding. This study this thread is about says high heat may cause pyramiding. While actually, my closed chamber is in my second garage that the past several weeks has been close to 93 dropping to 80 at night. The chamber constantly struggled to stay in the low 90's as I had to put the basking lights on a separate thermostat to turn off at 90 to avoid overheating. Their nighttime temps averaged 85. Despite this higher heat, faster growth, AND 5 years of a pyramiding growth pattern in a drier environment - I saw immediate change in growth pattern and what looks to be a total stop to the pyramiding.

For me - I'm still convinced more than ever, if they grow - it must be humid!


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## Tom

No surpirse Mark, but I agree completely and I've observed exactly what you have starting back in 2008 with my Daisy girl, and continuing through today.

This study proved what we have been saying all along, but in another way. "Pyramiding is _caused_ by growth in conditions that are too dry." No growth = No pyramiding. If conditions are too dry, they will pyramid no matter how slow they grow. Slow growth in dry conditions = slow pyramiding. Fast growth in dry conditions = fast pyramiding.

One look at @DeanS results and the whole "fast growth is bad" debate is totally blown out of the water.


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## mark1

Markw84 said:


> If I think about the tortoise in its natural environment, they ENDURE periods of food scarcity, and hot, dry weather. They basically stop growing and estivate during these periods to survive - waiting for the time to thrive. When the monsoons come, they have ample food with the rains and humidity. They grow in those conditions. They don't grow in food-scarce, dry conditions. It's really logical - food is available when it is wetter allowing the food to grow. So warm + humid = grow time. In dry times, the food dries up, and tortoises stop growing. It's when we create an artificial condition they would never see naturally in their home environments that we see pyramiding. We provide ample food and heat & UVB in DRY conditions. We get their metabolism going, yet without one key ingredient - proper hydration. So they grow, but don't grow naturally.


i think that is the best conclusion i've seen , it would satisfy any argument i've seen ......... it's similar to what this Weisener and Iben guy were looking for , except when they start talking about dietary calcium , phosphorus and ossification , i personally don't see a connection ..... http://africantortoise.com/_sulcatadiet2.pdf
don't know about the type of keratin a tortoise shell is made of , but the composition of keratin in horns is known to be affected by humidity , i would assume possibly the keratin in a tortoise shell is also , and that very well may be related to pyramiding ..... your conclusion would also answer why the introduction of an artificial food source in madagascar would lead to seeing pyramided wild radiated tortoises ......


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## Markw84

mark1 said:


> i think that is the best conclusion i've seen , it would satisfy any argument i've seen ......... it's similar to what this Weisener and Iben guy were looking for , except when they start talking about dietary calcium , phosphorus and ossification , i personally don't see a connection ..... http://africantortoise.com/_sulcatadiet2.pdf
> don't know about the type of keratin a tortoise shell is made of , but the composition of keratin in horns is known to be affected by humidity , i would assume possibly the keratin in a tortoise shell is also , and that very well may be related to pyramiding ..... your conclusion would also answer why the introduction of an artificial food source in madagascar would lead to seeing pyramided wild radiated tortoises ......


Do you know what actually is happening with the affected horn growth you refer to? It seems to me the dryness may be causing the keratin to curl down at the edge as it grows causing each successive growth ring to be lower. Doesn't seem like pyramiding is actually upward growth of a pyramid but downward growth in between - based on measurements of overall shell height vs length.


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## mark1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3574435/


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## Yvonne G

mark1 said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3574435/



Yeah...what he said!


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## Markw84

NOW THAT'S INTERESTING AND SHOWS CAUSE FOR PYRAMIDING!!! 

According to that study, keratin, while forming, if exposed to dry conditions will become more stiff and resistant to additional swelling if later exposed to water, while hydrated keratin will swell more resulting in a thicker layer.

I just seems to me all this mystery about pyramiding causes could be something simple. What would fit all scenarios is that the keratin as it fills in over new growth areas, will stiffen, and become resistant to filling in in a thicker layer above, yet add additional keratin below. That would cause downward growth with successive layer. As the new bone growth beneath is much more pliable, it would follow this growth pattern. However when kept in a moist environment, the keratin retains it ability to swell and add volume to the new scute in a more even, top to bottom, profile.

Everything would fit this... extremely slow growth would not pyramid and the keratin layer is barely filling in over new bone and this effect does not have a chance to happen. However, whenever there is faster growth, the larger new bone area we all see as those white lines in many species, will require faster keratin growth as well to follow. If in a dry environment, this effect will then cause the keratin to push the bone downward as the top layer of keratin becomes stiffer much faster than the bottom of the keratin.

Every scenario we have seen of pyramiding vs no pyramiding, including this study, exactly fits this proposed cause.

Thoughts? @Tom @deadheadvet anyone?


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## deadheadvet

Temperature may be a secondary factor in relation to growth. In drier environment, temp is constant and the air will be drier. Hence growth may be affected. A moister environment may help shell growth.Too wet an environment is an issue in itself. I am also convinced that genetics play a role in shell growth. Certain blood line seem to display more bumping. Me personally, I think the whole pyramid thing is so overkilled. The majority of the animals in question are perfectly healthy other then some bumping. Big deal! If the animal is unhealthy, there are so many other issues that need to be addressed.
All this talk about stopping pyramiding is not anything I will spend a lot of time on. All my animals are unrelated. All living in the same environment. Some are perfectly smooth, and some have bumping. Do i care, hell no. I worry about their general health.


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## BrianWI

mark1 said:


> i think that is the best conclusion i've seen , it would satisfy any argument i've seen ......... it's similar to what this Weisener and Iben guy were looking for , except when they start talking about dietary calcium , phosphorus and ossification , i personally don't see a connection ..... http://africantortoise.com/_sulcatadiet2.pdf
> don't know about the type of keratin a tortoise shell is made of , but the composition of keratin in horns is known to be affected by humidity , i would assume possibly the keratin in a tortoise shell is also , and that very well may be related to pyramiding ..... your conclusion would also answer why the introduction of an artificial food source in madagascar would lead to seeing pyramided wild radiated tortoises ......




Mark,

Is your hypothesis that the shell need moisture to grow properly in the up and out direction? That without the moisture, it may stiffen too quick, causing the growth to pyramid? Not trying to put words in your mouth, trying to understand myself and that sounds plausible.


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## deadheadvet

I do not have a definite on cause as it is a multifactorial discussion. Either way, if the tortoise is healthy and eating well, I do not consider it a serious issue. Now cosmetically sometimes there is definite misshape of the plastron and would question the health of the animal. There was a recent discussion about a pair of Rads raised in Fl with significant shell deformity. Supposedly under ideal conditions but managed to be severely misshapen.


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## Markw84

BrianWI said:


> Mark,
> 
> Is your hypothesis that the shell need moisture to grow properly in the up and out direction? That without the moisture, it may stiffen too quick, causing the growth to pyramid? Not trying to put words in your mouth, trying to understand myself and that sounds plausible.


Basically, yes. But I'm proposing an actual CAUSE.

@Tom showed so well in his experiments that growth in a very humid environment resulted in virtually no pyramiding, However, we still don't know what CAUSES that. @deadheadvet mentions above his belief that temperature is a factor that drier air is a more stable temperature. Yet I personally have grown dozens of tortoises in very controlled stable temperature environments, and only when humidity was increased, and still using the exact temperatures as before, did I see a dramatic decrease in Pyramiding. For decades fast growth was also stated as a factor. Yet again I personally tired that, and did different diet experiments, yet only now see consistent and repeatable results of no pyramiding if humid - despite very fast growth, and different diets.

deadheadvet's assertion that pyramiding obsession is way too extreme has merit. The overall health is of chief concern. However, Everyone, including deadheadvet take pride in showing off the beauty of the animals we raise. All of us loving to post prideful pictures. That is a great satisfaction of raising tortoises, or any animal successfully. A smooth, non-pyramided shell, I believe, is a very desirable and sought after result. Although in a vast majority of the cases it is cosmetic, I personally see it as a sign of great husbandry. Not to eliminate it, but to minimize it.

In extreme cases, I believe some may actually be bone problems. But I don't feel we are talking about that here. It's the "cosmetic" deformity of the shell growth I feel is reflected in husbandry techniques.

So many of us have spent decades experimenting with FACTORS that will contribute to or minimize pyramiding. But what is the CAUSE metabolically? I'm 1proposing that the growth of the scute above the bone is the primary cause of pyramiding. The study Mark! referenced showed that Keratin acts and forms differently in a dry vs moist environment. When dried the fibers actually form differently and become more stiff and resistant to a swelling that occurs with keratin that has not been excessively dried. SO...

I'm proposing that in dry environments, and very slow growth, the keratin as it forms at the edges of the scutes does so in a fairly uniform manner. But when moderate to fast growth occurs - the faster spread of keratin, exposed to dry conditions, will cause the top to stiffen, and not continue to swell as it continues to form, while the bottom of the new scute keratin continues to grow in a thicker way. This pressure is exerted on the new bone growth and causes the new seam to be lower than the previous seam. In a humid environment, the keratin as it spreads, does so much more evenly, with stiffness and swelling equal top and bottom - and grows straight.


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## BrianWI

It certainly seems plausible. I wonder if looking at the growth under a microscope would work to see differences between the two?


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## mctlong

Some additional food for thought, since we're on the subject -

I suspect that pyramiding has an evolutionary advantage and this advantage is directly related to moisture. I was reading a blurb about barrel cacti and it mentioned that the ridges along the sides of this cactus work to channel water to the base of the plant. This is valuable during dry seasons where rain is sparse and the cacti needs to retain as much water as possible from morning dew. Like the ridges on a barrel cactus, the raised scutes on a pyramided tortoises create little channels between the scutes. When it rains, gravity pulls the water straight to the keratin between the scutes. If a drier than average environment causes pyramiding, then the shape of that pyramided shell may be nature's way of correcting the lack of moisture by diverting more rainwater/dew/humidity to the keratin.

i.e. - Lack of moisture on keratin = pyramiding = more moisture to keratin


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## Kapidolo Farms

Markw84 said:


> !



post 43 this thread, middle paragraph. Post 46 to tie it in with the ecology of populations of tortoises.


----------



## BrianWI

mctlong said:


> Some additional food for thought, since we're on the subject -
> 
> I suspect that pyramiding has an evolutionary advantage and this advantage is directly related to moisture. I was reading a blurb about barrel cacti and it mentioned that the ridges along the sides of this cactus work to channel water to the base of the plant. This is valuable during dry seasons where rain is sparse and the cacti needs to retain as much water as possible from morning dew. Like the ridges on a barrel cactus, the raised scutes on a pyramided tortoises create little channels between the scutes. When it rains, gravity pulls the water straight to the keratin between the scutes. If a drier than average environment causes pyramiding, then the shape of that pyramided shell may be nature's way of correcting the lack of moisture by diverting more rainwater/dew/humidity to the keratin.
> 
> i.e. - Lack of moisture on keratin = pyramiding = more moisture to keratin



Seems like a stretch. More surface area could mean LESS moisture reaching the scutes, plus flowing water likely would not absorb anywhere near fast enough to be helpful.


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## Tom

To this thread with these new theories, I would add my previous experience with "slow" growth and reduced nutrition, just for the sake of discussion:

I got my first sulcata in '91. I read the books on sulcatas available at the time and talked to tortoise "experts", and I made my first of many attempts at growing a smooth sulcata. Back then I didn't even know what pyramiding was, even though all the CB tortoise were pyramided and none of the WC were. Didn't take long to figure out that something was amiss. I talked to every person I could find about my failure. I wanted to know what I did wrong. It was unanimously explained by every vet, breeder, book, and expert that where I went wrong was the diet and not enough sun. See, I had been keeping various iguanid species and uromastix too, so I felt like I had a good handle on the whole herbivore diet thing when I got that first sulcata. I was told that during the 8-9 month dry period, there is nothing to eat "over there" except dead dry grasses and such. Hardly any food, and very low nutrient content. It was explained to me that over here in captivity, we feed them too often, too much, and foods from the grocery store that are too nutritious. Armed with this new knowledge I got a couple more babies and set out to get it right this time. I fed them nothing but weeds, grass and leaves, in small quantities and only about three times a week, to try to simulate a more "natural" "wild" type of diet. Since exercise and UV from sunshine were also listed as major factors in this pyramiding thing, I made a roughly 11x40' pen for my tiny little new guys. If the sun was out and temps were 70 or above, which is most days where I am, they were outside walking in the sun. Slow growth was the goal. Low protein, low nutrition and small quantities was the diet. Lots of exercise and sun was the order of the day. "What about hydration?", you ask? Sulcatas (and leopards...), I was told, are a desert species. They get their water from their food. There is no water to drink in the desert during the dry season. They had a water dish in their indoor enclosure and I soaked them about once a week as babies and once a month as they got older. Indoors they had a basking spot during the day, simulating the hot African sun, and night temps dropped to 70ish. This was back in the 90s before we had MVBs or florescent tubes that actually made decent UVB.

Anyone want to guess the result? They certainly grew slowly. So slowly that I think I stunted them. Both turned out to be male and they were 33 and 37 pounds at 13 years old. I was given a third young tort about a year into it, and she was only about 18 pounds at 12 years old. Is that slow enough for the people who advocate "slow growth" as a solution for what is wrong with tortoise care today? And the pyramiding? Yep. They pyramided just as bad as that first one. Only these pyramided _slowly._ So my reward for all my hard work, time, research and study was a bunch of tiny little stunted and highly pyramided tortoises. They were healthy, and no sign of MBD, at least. But man were they hungry. They would chase after every leaf that blew into their enclosure like they were starving, because... well... They _were_ starving!

So forgive my snottiness and skepticism, when people assert that keeping them dry is "natural" and simulating monsoon season will cause RIs and shell rot. It took decades, a lot of failed attempts, and input from many sources to scratch the surface, and begin figuring out what was really going on.


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## BrianWI

Tom,

Have any pics of cross sections of badly pyramiding shells?


----------



## Tom

BrianWI said:


> Tom,
> 
> Have any pics of cross sections of badly pyramiding shells?



I have some in my desktop if I can find them...

Yvonne posted some cross sectional X-rays in Marks thread earlier today. Would those work for your purposes?


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## BrianWI

Thats what triggered my interest. If you have actual pictures, so much the better.


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## wellington

Just my two cents. i feel trying to raise tortoise smooth should be everyone's goal. If they are naturally smooth in the wild, then that's the way we as owners should try to raise them. If they are "bumpy" in the wild then that's the way we should be raising them. It's not just cosmetic. It's raising them the way they were meant to be. I feel people that dont see "bumpy" as a big deal, it's because they don't want to put the work in it takes to keep the humidity high. It's not easy fighting high temps with high humidity. So too many take the easy way, and dismisses "bumpy" "pyramiding" as something that should be of little concern. Health and the way they look should both be a big concern!
If I buy a cocker spaniel, I want a healthy one that looks like a cocker spaniel. I don't want a healthy one, that looks like a springer spaniel. At least the effort should be made to try and raise them smooth, if that's the way they were intended to be.


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## Cowboy_Ken

wellington said:


> Just my two cents. i feel trying to raise tortoise smooth should be everyone's goal. If they are naturally smooth in the wild, then that's the way we as owners should try to raise them.


I'm guessing here that hairless rats don't fall into this "as they should be" example…


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## donmacho

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1439-0396.2003.00411.x/abstract
2003 13years ago


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## wellington

Cowboy_Ken said:


> I'm guessing here that hairless rats don't fall into this "as they should be" example…


I have no idea about hairless rats. If they were man made, then no, I don't agree with it. I don't like human kind messing with genetics or not at least trying to raise an animal to look like its naturally suppose to be.


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## Markw84

wellington said:


> I have no idea about hairless rats. If they were man made, then no, I don't agree with it. I don't like human kind messing with genetics or not at least trying to raise an animal to look like its naturally suppose to be.


Barb, I love ya, but just have to comment. I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, but the cocker spaniel, you use as an example, you may wish to purchase would never exist, then.


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## wellington

Markw84 said:


> Barb, I love ya, but just have to comment. I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, but the cocker spaniel, you use as an example, you may wish to purchase would never exist, then.


I know what your saying. They are all, well almost all, derived from mixing breeds. Believe me I get that. If I lived way back when most breeds were being developed, I wouldn't like it then either. Enough is enough now. Every breed/species that exist now, doesn't have to be altered yet again, specially when it's only for the sake of money. Human kind never seems to have enough. Take care of what we have now, properly, or as properly as we can learn how to.


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## BrianWI

wellington said:


> I have no idea about hairless rats. If they were man made, then no, I don't agree with it. I don't like human kind messing with genetics or not at least trying to raise an animal to look like its naturally suppose to be.



Then we'd have no dogs, cats, chickens, cows... Such silliness.


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## Cowboy_Ken

wellington said:


> If I lived way back when most breeds were being developed, I wouldn't like it then either.


As recent evidence suggests, "domestic dogs" have been "domesticated" twice now, with the current group the "second" group. If I get requests, I'll look it up and post it, but I'm not so sure this is on topic as it were…


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## wellington

BrianWI said:


> Then we'd have no dogs, cats, chickens, cows... Such silliness.


Wrong


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## BrianWI

wellington said:


> Wrong


Yes, you are.


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## Markw84

wellington said:


> Wrong


Actually, this is quite correct. Brian believes in terse replies that don't add information. But I find it fascinating.

These animals are quite different than the wild animals they were derived from. Probably the wolves of Asia and (independently) the wolves of the middle East and Europe are what we "didn't leave alone" along with the African wild cat, the Jungle fowl, and the Aurochs (a wild ox). Not to mention the wild Boar, and the Przewalski's horse.


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## BrianWI

Markw84 said:


> Actually, this is quite correct. Brian believes in terse replies that don't add information. But I find it fascinating.



I generally mirror the post I am replying too. If you want further information, just ask.

Simply put, domestication, or "messing with genetics, etc., is certainly necessary. Can you imagine the strain on wild populations if we didn't have animals bred to be far superior food sources? Or plants for that matter? No hybrid corn, no golden rice, no chickens that lay an egg a day every day or broilers you can raise to butcher in 5 weeks with excellent feed conversion? We would have eaten every other animal and plant into extinction!.

Think about Lonesome George. He was the last of his kind. But, we have now found "half Lonesome Georges" in another area. And by manipulating their genetics, we could restore his kind.

Too often people mistake breeding pets with the idea of conservation. 99 times out of 100, it simply doesn't apply. If you want a hairless rat, breed one and let your conscience be clear.


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## Tom

Barb, I love ya', but I gotta go against you on this one. Humans have been "tampering" with animals since the dawn of time, whenever each of us believes that was. Sometimes it is disastrous (cane toads, anyone?) and other times it is greatly beneficial to the whole human species, as in dogs, and the examples Brian listed.


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## Cowboy_Ken

Tom said:


> Barb, I love ya', but it is greatly beneficial to the whole human species, as in dogs, and the examples Brian listed.


And the very delicious walking steak or roast beef,(not the type with all the initials following beef). I'm talking pasture raised, grass fed beef here, not fast food beef products.


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## Tom

Cowboy_Ken said:


> And the very delicious walking steak or roast beef,(not the type with all the initials following beef). I'm talking pasture raised, grass fed beef here, not fast food beef products.



You would LOVE a South African steak… mmmmmmmm...


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## BrianWI

Tom said:


> You would LOVE a South African steak… mmmmmmmm...


MMMMMmmm Steak.... (In my best Homer Simpson voice)


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## Kapidolo Farms

wellington said:


> I have no idea about hairless rats. If they were man made, then no, I don't agree with it. I don't like human kind messing with genetics or not at least trying to raise an animal to look like its naturally suppose to be.



Well Barb et al, hairless animals like rats and mice are not bred to hairless as the intended result. They are bred to have a poor immune response, the hairlessness just comes along with the selecting for poor immune response.

Immune compromised animals are important models for understanding disease response to drugs. If the rats own immune response kept knocking the disease out, then the researcher would never be able to see the effect of the drug.

So a hairless mouse, or immunocomprimised mouse might be given a human cancer, then a drug is tried out on the mouse. No humans are harmed in the experiment, the FDA has a really strong dislike for that. Even though it is a human cancer that is tested. 

There are haired mice with no immune system too. It is much more difficult to see what is happening, the cancer cells are implanted Sub Q, so the tumor growth and death can be observed. Tens of millions of mice and rats are used this way every year. Very nearly everyone alive today, less a few untouched groups of people deep in various jungles, are alive at the benefit of this kind of research. It is very well represented in every medication. Even drugs that were developed before this kind of testing was routine, have subsequently been tested with this methodology.

Most all rodent reptile food is from strains of mice and rats bred for this kind of research. They do really well in captivity. So now you know.


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## Markw84

Amazing how a thread gets off track!

Or... Does a hairless mouse pyramid if kept too dry or warm?


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## Yvonne G

...I forget...remind me again: What were we talking about?


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## Kapidolo Farms

Markw84 said:


> Amazing how a thread gets off track!
> 
> Or... Does a hairless mouse pyramid if kept too dry or warm?



Hairless mice do have skin issues if kept to dry or to humid. It also affects their immune response. 

Well, it is on track, back to the experiment, the experiment was poor. See that's what I do these days, experiment with animals for human health. I can also read and interpret experiments for animal health as well. 

The larger POV expressed by wellington is the one that brings us back to the experiment. People *apart* from nature, not people as *a part* of nature. We are by far the most modifying of our ecosystem. 

Gopher tortoises for example are ecosystem modifiers and several hundred other species have come to rely on their burrows. We have modified most ecosystems at an extreme expense, as well as modifying the organisms themselves (Barb's point). I don't know what the end result will be, eventually all more complex organisms modify themselves into a precarious existence, followed by extinction. We, as humans, just seem to be taking several other species along with us. Just is, no point in getting to much into saying it's good or bad. I will surly die before the current magnitude of human interventions into the natural world will play all the way out.

So we are on track, it is the nature of intellectual curiosity to not be bound by the first sentence in the first paragraph of a current conversation. It's okay to color outside the lines as long as it still looks good. If it doesn't look good to you, then look away.


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## FLINTUS

Tom said:


> Umm… Its hot in Africa where they come from. Hot day and night.
> 
> And what about Arizona, Hawaii, New Orleans and South FL where they all grow smooth and its hot all the time in summer?
> 
> So if we leave our tropical torts at room temp all the time, and don't feed them, they won't pyramid. Okay. Got it. Moving on now.


Tom I think we've discussed this before with regards to variations in humidity, and my belief that they still need time to dry out the scutes to avoid them becoming too dense.Whilst I'm sure you didn't intend it like so, saying 'it's hot in Africa' even humourously may suggest the wrong message to some less experienced keepers. Big place, but large parts of it certainly cool A LOT at night, particularly those inland. That as Craig @Anyfoot correctly asserted causes the morning dew and the rise in humidity. Variations must be key to the health of most tortoises. I don't doubt the burrows keep them warmer than at ground level, but babies are unlikely to be that deep down anyway, and the burrows I saw of Kenyan Leopards were not that deep at all.


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## Champoi bibiano

Im not so sure about this haha.


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