# Just Being Cute Or Sick?



## gabby.santana (Feb 7, 2016)

I feed him once a day in the morning and usually as soon as he finishes eating he just falls asleep. I am not sure if he is sick or simply being a cute baby that is sleepy because he is full. I've never owned a tortoise so I don't know when one is sick. 

Also can someone please tell me how to tell if he has an RI

My boxie never showed the typical signs of an RI until I took him to the vet and the vet pressed somewhere on his back side and he blew out bubbles

Can someone please tell me what the vet did so I can do the same to my little DT and see if he has an RI

He often blows bubbles when I am soaking him but I have never seen him blow bubbles outside of his water.


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## Gabriel Luna (Feb 7, 2016)

I think is normal, but normally they hide and sleep.


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## Ciri (Feb 7, 2016)

My hatchling DT does tend to sleep after eating. He does walk around as well. Is yours active besides eating and sleeping? How long have you had him or her? They do sleep a lot, and will have some periods of activity during the day. When I got mine at two months old he slept a lot then. Now he is five months old and doesn't sleep quite as much. I give him 12 hours of complete darkness and quiet for sleep at night so he also gets good rest then, too. You probably know all about that since you have a box turtle.

I also have box turtles, and learned to be very careful because box turtles can get a DT sick. Obviously you're keeping them separately, so that helps a lot. I'm very careful about handwashing. As an additional precaution, I feed the DT first each day, and then take care of the boxies.

This is a picture of my hatchlings face. Your hatchling's should have eyes that are like these – not sunken or swollen as that would be a sign of a possible RI. Like you mentioned, bubbles coming from the nose when not in the water dish is another sign. I don't know where to press to see if bubbles will come out your hatchlings nose. In my experience, when any of them have an RI they usually won't eat, or eat very little. So the fact yours is eating is a good sign. I hope this is helpful. Keep us updated.


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## gabby.santana (Feb 7, 2016)

Thank you so much for your thorough answer! His eyes to appear puffy at times but at other times they are completely open. I bought him eye drops for just that. He is active he walks around his enclosure other days more than other days. I knew species should not be kept together but I had no idea they were that sensitive.

Hmm now I'm worried that he might be sick. He eats well and so far as been eager to eat and I got him in the beginning of January so I haven't had him long to know what's normal for him. I let him walk around the room and he seems to enjoy that and does take advantage and likes to walk around the whole room.


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## gabby.santana (Feb 7, 2016)

Btw that's a really cool pic of your hatchling! 

I will try to get a picture like that and send it to you.


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## gabby.santana (Feb 7, 2016)




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## gabby.santana (Feb 7, 2016)




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## gabby.santana (Feb 7, 2016)




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## gabby.santana (Feb 7, 2016)

Close up pictures of his eyes


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## Ciri (Feb 7, 2016)

20 years ago I allowed my box turtle to walk around on the floor as I watched over him each moment. However, I soon learned from the veterinarian that can be bad for their health. Especially for a hatchling. DT tend to be more susceptible to getting RI infections. So there is a big risk of coming into contact with bacteria that could make the tort is sick when walking around on the floor. Not to mention the pesticides that we bring in on the bottoms of her shoes just from walking around out in the world. Tortoises and turtles are very sensitive to pesticides. My veterinarian also said there are drafts on the floor and that's not healthy for them to be exposed to. There's also the risk of the phone ringing or another distraction happening that keeps us from being able to protect the turtle or tortoise. I have seen tragic stories on this website. People really thought they were being careful when they allowed their turtle or tortoise to walk around on the floor. Unfortunately, the precious tortoise ended up dead after being accidentally stepped on by the keeper. All it takes is a split second to forget. They are so tiny. With my adult turtles and tortoises I never let them walk around in the house anymore.

I looked at your pictures and it's really hard for me to tell. It looks like it's possible there's some puffiness in the bottom eyelid, but it's really hard to tell from those pictures. Maybe someone else has an opinion?


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## Tom (Feb 7, 2016)

Gabby,

What are your four temperatures? Warm side, cool side, basking area and overnight low. 
What equipment are you using to maintain those temps day and night?
Any UV? What type?
How often are you soaking?

I agree that walking around loose on the floor is a recipe for disaster. Many tortoises every year die, become ill or impacted, or get sick or injured from that practice. Best to leave the tortoise in its enclosure where it is safe and has the correct environmental parameters.


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## gabby.santana (Feb 7, 2016)

the warmest side is about 98.
I use both a 100 watt basking bulb with its appropriate fixture and the zoo med mercury powersun 100 watt bulb with his appropriate fixture on at the same time. 
I try to soak him every day. he often worries me when I soak him because to me he seems to keep his head under the water for a good second. 
He doesn't like to stay in it for long after about 10 minutes he wants out. 

I am having a problem in keeping him warm over the night I have a 100 watt CHE but his enclosure gets about 80 with it on.

*I need something to drape over the lights that is fireproof any suggestions? *

Oh no I am bit worried now! I've let my DT walk on the same floor on the same day as my boxie. My boxie had an RI about several months ago and did receive antibiotics for it but I am hoping he is all cured. Since he never really showed signs of sickness to begin with. 

Other than that my boxie is active and loves to eat his worms. My DT is always eager to eat in the mornings. 

The other day though I brought out my DT to get some natural sun as the day was nice and he managed to get a quick small bit from a clover weed and I am concerned because almost the whole backyard (except my boxie's enclosure) was sprayed with insecticide about a week ago, however we did have heavy rains and I don't know if that affected the insecticide in perhaps washing it away. The insecticide we use is supposedly pet friendly and I was told even a small animal would have to drink plenty of it directly to become sick from it. 
This happened about 3 days ago and the DT is still acting the same as in wanting to eat and walk around his home. I am just worried that he has an RI and it will only worsen him. 

Thank you again guys from taking the time to help me out! I always have loads of questions and truly appreciate your answers!


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## gabby.santana (Feb 7, 2016)

the coolest side is about 80 degrees


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## Ciri (Feb 8, 2016)

80°F is too warm for a nighttime temperature drop. The nighttime temperature should be about 65 to 72°F. However, if the hatchling is sick, it is better if the temperature is in the mid-70s at night.

98°F is pretty high for the warm end. I would try to keep that down to around 90°. Once in a while a hatchling can end up flipped upside down and unable to get itself back up. If that happens in 98°F it can cause brain damage according to the veterinarians which wrote this desert tortoise care information:
http://www.desertmuseum.org/programs/tap_tortcare.php

When I spoke with my reptile veterinarian about insecticides a few years ago, he said that there are no insecticides which are safe for tortoises and turtles, which are not highly toxic to humans. Legally pesticide companies are not supposed to say that any insecticide is safe, because by their nature they are not. However, there are some which are not as dangerous to mammals, such as Pyrethrins. unfortunately these so-called safer pesticides are not even all that safe for mammals. See the following link for information on the dangers to humans of these so-called safer pesticides:
http://anapsid.org/pyrethroids.html

One of the problems I have encountered with companies that spray pesticides, is that almost all of them are completely ignorant about what is safe for reptiles. The so-called safer pesticides are actually much more dangerous to reptiles and they are to humans. As you'll see from the above link, the safer ones are not very safe for us. It's probably a good idea to ask what kind of pesticide was sprayed so you have that information. Then when you go to your reptile veterinarian, find out how toxic that is to tortoises and turtles. If it is a Pyrethrin, then it's possible that with heavy watering you can eventually dilute it and get it to soak into the ground and eventually make the area safe for your animals. Until then, I wouldn't let them on the ground, I wouldn't allow them to eat anything growing in the yard. I've been growing Dichondra and globemallow in pots in the house to give to my hatchling desert tortoise as additional food.

I thought a lot about the eyes – it's really hard to tell from those photographs whether your hatchling might be sick. I would be a lot more concerned if the hatchling were not eating, though. My tendency is to err on the side of caution, and take them to the veterinarian if I'm not sure. I usually make a phone call first if I'm on the fence, and ask his staff to ask him if he thinks that the animal needs to be seen, given the symptoms. (I don't know if your veterinarian is willing to take questions without an appointment.)

Keep us updated as to how things go. I'm also curious to hear what was sprayed in your yard. I know a lot of companies will say something is safe for animals, truly having no idea what is safe for reptiles. Feel free to keep asking questions of us whenever you need.


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## Yvonne G (Feb 8, 2016)

Because this is a very young desert tortoise, my advice is to not allow the night time temperature to drop below 75F degrees. I keep my babies at 85F all over the whole habitat - no hot side, no cool side. Then at night it drops slightly. Soak your baby every morning in warm water for at least 15 minutes.

You're not using the coil-shaped bulb, are you? Maybe your bulb is too bright. Place a few plants, either real or fake, around under the light to diffuse the brightness.


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## gabby.santana (Feb 8, 2016)

Yvonne: No I am using the zoo med mercury power sun 100 watt bulb 
I also have a basking bulb on too
I think I might try the plants. Any real plants you know of that can handle strong heat?


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## Yvonne G (Feb 8, 2016)

That's what I said - TWO 100 WATT bulbs is too much for your little baby. The Zoo Med Power Sun 100 watt bulb IS ALSO A BASKING BULB! There is no need for the other 100 watt basking bulb.

Buy more plants than you need because they don't last long in the enclosure.


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## gabby.santana (Feb 8, 2016)

Even with the mercury bulb temperatures were not reaching 90 I believe they were at 88 is that okay?


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## Yvonne G (Feb 8, 2016)

Yes. How far from the top of the tortoise is the bottom of the light?

If the 100 watt MVB doesn't keep your habitat warm enough, you need to cover it. I use aluminum foil on some and plastic on others.


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## Maggie Cummings (Feb 8, 2016)

I have also coverd the top with aluminum foil. One 75 watt black light bulb keeps it 95 at night with 85% humidity.


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## gabby.santana (Feb 8, 2016)

I removed the basking bulb and will cover it with foil thank you everyone!


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