# Pet store 4 inch rule



## franeich (Jan 7, 2011)

I was at a local pet shop the other day and they had tiny baby sulcatas. I thought pet stores could not sell them unless they were 4 inches long.


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## moswen (Jan 7, 2011)

well, you actually can sell anything you want... the rule is that you can't sell a tort under 4 inches to anyone EXCEPTING those with the explicit intent to educate with or scientifically study these animals. as long as the purchaser "claims" that this is their intent, the store can sell it. and as long as the seller "claims" to sell to only those persons who are purchasing for those reasons, they can't get introuble for it.


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## Tom (Jan 7, 2011)

Yep. I Rebekah spelled it out perfectly.


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## Shelly (Jan 7, 2011)

But how then do the retail stores purchase the animals? Certainly a retail outlet buying a 2" tort, and then reselling it is in violation of the law, if that is how it is written.


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## moswen (Jan 7, 2011)

hummm.... nice one shelly. maybe they can say they purchased them with the intent to sell them to educators or scientists? i mean they're obviously not keeping them as pets, so maybe the law doesn't apply to a business. because the 4" rule was put in place when all those kids were getting salmonella from the RES in the 70's or whenever, so maybe there's a way around it because they're not keeping them as pets. 

don't know, nice input.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Jan 7, 2011)

We sell our aldabra hatchlings at 2.5" all the time, and some of our customers retail them on a regular basis. I think importing anything under 4" is not legal.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 7, 2011)

Here's the rule:

http://www.tortoise.org/general/4inch.html

The thing is, for a rule or law to work it has to be enforced. Just because there is a rule doesn't mean no one will disobey it. Look at all the drugs being sold...all the illegal guns...all the robberies and killings.


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## Candy (Jan 7, 2011)

I went into a pet store around Christmas time and saw little Sulcatas and Leopards that were no more than 2 inches if even that. It was sad as one of them didn't look well. I stood there until I could get someone to get them some water and then I asked the manager about the 4 inch law and he replied that is only for Red Eared Sliders. I wasn't positive about the law, but now that Yvonne posted it maybe I'll send him a copy of it since he obviously doesn't know what this law states. They should no be allowed to sell babies that young. Even when I asked how old the sickly Leopard was they weren't sure. Sad, very sad.


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## dmmj (Jan 7, 2011)

a lot of pet stores either through ignorance or fraud say it only applies to RES, I went round and round once with a pet store near me over that then I told the owner look up the law next time I went in they had all these signs up saying turtles and tortoise under 4 inches are sold only for scientific or educational purposes. as for the pet stores buying them under 4 maybe since they are usually buying from breeder who are not held by the law they can do it.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 7, 2011)

There was a place near me that was selling a couple "little" sulcatas. I asked about them (since I know that it's illegal to sell them) and chatted with a worker. The owner picked them up at the last expo and they knew it was illegal to sell them. So, they said I had to buy a little over $200 worth of supplies and then he would be a free gift to go with it  

Of course though $200 for a sulcata hatchling? I thought they were smoking something... but then again a few weeks later I went back and they had disappeared so maybe a customer was smoking something a bit stronger...


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## John (Jan 7, 2011)

I think it all has too do with where you live,the rule is not the same for everyone.rephrase, the enforcement is not the same for everyone.


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## Madkins007 (Jan 7, 2011)

Let's clarify a few points...

1. The 'education/display' exception ALSO states "other than use as pets". If they have you sign something saying that it is for display, they are having you commit perjury- an even bigger crime. One major on-line retailer uses this dodge.

2. The law is all about the COMMERICAL sale- not between friends, breeders, etc. not primarily doing it as a business.

3. The law does indeed apply to ALL chelonians.

4. No one really enforces the law on a regular store-by-store level, it is up to people to report violators to the FDA. 

5. Most small pet shops either don't know the law, or know it perfectly and know they have almost no chance of getting caught.

6. Most of these little torts are not coming from legit breeders or suppliers, they are usually coming from local breeders (probably hobbyists) or expos, etc. since a legit supplier will not sell under 4" to standard retail outlets.


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## Laura (Jan 7, 2011)

i think a lot less would die in private hands if the rule was enforced!!


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## dmmj (Jan 7, 2011)

Laura said:


> i think a lot less would die in private hands if the rule was enforced!!


I have to disagree, I believe it is about education not how many there are out there.


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## John (Jan 8, 2011)

Madkins007 said:


> Let's clarify a few points...
> 
> 1. The 'education/display' exception ALSO states "other than use as pets". If they have you sign something saying that it is for display, they are having you commit perjury- an even bigger crime. One major on-line retailer uses this dodge.
> 
> ...



again depends on where you live. in nj most pet shops do not sell chelonians period.states and towns can add too federal laws.


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## Marty333 (Jan 8, 2011)

There is a local exotic petstore near me and it sells baby turtles, sulcatas, leopards,and redfoots. And they are over price 145 for a baby sulcata!! Crazy!


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## terryo (Jan 8, 2011)

One of our local pet stores had a tank with about 10 Sulcata hatchling. $40. each. I went there recently, and he said that he got a big fine...didn't tell me how much, so now he doesn't have them, but he could get them if I wanted one. Later on, a friend who works there told me about the "back room". He had, little RES, Sulcata, and baby Iguana's.


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