# Social grouping?



## Alice.S (Sep 19, 2012)

Hi,

This is my first post other than to say Hello in the Intro section.

I understand that for the most part, tortoises are not social animals in that they group together, but in a few instances. I'd like to feel that I am not asking potential pets to be something that is not in their nature.

Galops at a water hole, Aldabras in the shade of a tree I would consider social behavior - but I don't really want to keep any of these giants - fun to see and I hope to travel to these places, but...

So, some of the burrowing species may be social for the same reasons, limited resource, but not shade or wallows, but burrows. However I do not find many references that indicate that burrowing species are found together with much regularity.

Then I have found a few accounts where pancake tortoise are found together frequently. Again it seems to be based on a resource need, rock crevices, but that would tend to indicate it is in their nature, that they can deal with more or less constant close proximity to other pancake tortoises.

I'm figuring this is a debatable topic as it relates to general interest to co-house like species, but aside from the wants of the person owning the animals, within tortoises' own nature, don't you all think pancakes may qualify as social tortoises? Like Galops and albabras, but not several hundred pounds.

Alice


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## sibi (Sep 19, 2012)

Hi, and welcome to the forum. I don't know about the different types of torts you mentioned, but I have two sulcatas and they are always looking for each other. When they sleep, they snug with each other. If I separate one from the other, one will climb her hide to get over to the other side so they can be together. If you ask me, I'd say sulcatas are social animals--and that's all there is to that.


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## Tom (Sep 19, 2012)

Yes I would agree that pancakes could be defined as "social" in nature.

About the burrowing species: They tend to be the most aggressive toward each other. The three most aggressive tortoises that I can think of are CDTs, Russians and sulcatas. All three species will get along in the right enclosure with the right mix of conspecifics.


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## expo tort (Sep 19, 2012)

Tortoise are not social. They will tolerate cohabitation but they are not social animals. You can house 1 male and 3 females in a large habitat but other than that not really social.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 19, 2012)

Good first post!


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## expo tort (Sep 19, 2012)

Ok my info must be out dated I need to update what I know because what I'm reading now is contradicting what I know. I'm confused :?


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## Alice.S (Sep 20, 2012)

Hi,

I'm using the reply button on my own thread to continue the thought.

Tom, I think, commented that CDT are among the most non-social. I think I read a small booklet by Walter Aufenberg from a University in Florida, that CDT that live in south western Utah use what could be considered fossil burrows, they are now concreted by natural processes over a very long time. That these burrows are the limiting resource for this population. That several tortoises will use one burrow, at least for hibernation. 

This might not be 'social' more than survival, but it opens up the idea that the social could even be population specific.

I too have seen CDT be very aggressive with each other just by being in each others view, so it would seem.

I looked further as to what social means to indicate with animal groupings. In that case "cooperative interaction" indicates a active interchange between individuals, and so then I would guess even Pancakes are just sharing a limited resource, not really actively social.

Thanks for sharing. I've got much more reading to do.

I like to try and wear tortoise eyes when I consider what to do with my interest in keeping some. What's the tortoise contemplating?

Alice


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## Redstrike (Oct 4, 2012)

Alice.S said:


> ...
> This might not be 'social' more than survival, but it opens up the idea that the social could even be population specific.
> 
> I looked further as to what social means to indicate with animal groupings. In that case "cooperative interaction" indicates a active interchange between individuals, and so then I would guess even Pancakes are just sharing a limited resource, not really actively social.
> Alice



I agree, gathering at limited resources necessary to survival does not indicate social behavior. Perhaps there's a watering hole overlapping the homerange of 15 individuals in a population. At the most, this watering hole is 5 km from each individuals territory. Let's say they can travel 2 kilometers per hour and the next closest watering hole is 25 km away. Chances are they are all going to use the closer watering hole, not because they are seeking interaction with conspecifics, but because the cost of seeking an alternate water source could mean their survival.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 4, 2012)

Good post. Most tortoise species are solitary, but a few appear to be a bit more gregarious. Here are a couple of good, recent threads on this same topic:

"The great debate: turtle sociality"
"'herd' tortoises"

Individuals in the redfoot, pancake, Galapagos, Aldabra, and Burmese brown mountain tortoise species appear to have some social attraction to one degree or another. For all other species, and as in most reptiles, it seems that the only time they want to come together is to mate.


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## Nay (Oct 4, 2012)

I will find that Jack(RF) will chase Petey(RF) around to try and mate her plenty, but after hours I will lift up the dog house top that they go under, and more often than not I will find Jack with his head resting on Louise's shell (ornate). I have never ever seen Jack trying to mount Louise.They have been together many many years. What could that be about? Is that considered social?






(Please I have already been through the whole 'don't mix' issue. Read about it many years(posts) ago if you are so inclined).


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 4, 2012)

If I'm not mistaken, Terry O here on TFO keeps a redfoot with box turtles, and I think she has observed a similar phenomenon, with the redfoot hanging around the boxies as though it just wants to socialize with them. Did I get that right, Terry?

Here's a thread I started last year to show a YouTube video of a little box turtle chasing a larger redfoot tortoise. The video has since been taken down, though:
"Video of box turtle harassing redfoot tortoise"


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## redfoot7 (Oct 4, 2012)

You have either a really big red foot or a small box turtle. Or maybe its the camera angle? Either way very nice!

As far as the OP, you have some very good, and interesting points brought up. I wish I had more experience with other species so I could chime in. I know my cherry heads all seem to hang out together, even with multiple hides. But that's been discussed in other threads many times.


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## yagyujubei (Oct 5, 2012)

My leopards seem to be gregarious. When outside in a large area, there are usually several in close proximity to each other. The same ones are usually together.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 5, 2012)

yagyujubei said:


> My leopards seem to be gregarious. When outside in a large area, there are usually several in close proximity to each other. The same ones are usually together.



Interesting. And surprising. I wouldn't have expected leopard tortoises to show much affinity for each other, besides sexual attraction, of course. How old are they?


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## yagyujubei (Oct 5, 2012)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> yagyujubei said:
> 
> 
> > My leopards seem to be gregarious. When outside in a large area, there are usually several in close proximity to each other. The same ones are usually together.
> ...



I have an 11 yo female who is with three two year old males. Could be sexual, but usually it's her that seems to seek out the others. The males get along well also, but aren't quite mature enough to mate yet. Their outside pen is over 1000', but usually I find them all within a few feet of one another.


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## laney (Oct 5, 2012)

My torts are both under two but hang around together, they like their alone time too but I feel they are social with each other


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 7, 2012)

^^Another interesting post. Well, maybe tortoise sociality varies by age? A lot of animals group together as juveniles, becoming more solitary as they get older. This might apply to tortoises, too. You'd be hard pressed to find "herds" of baby tortoises in the wild, but perhaps there is some tendency there.


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## Alice.S (Oct 19, 2012)

http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/6/5/614.long

Hey, check this link out, it is a free PubMed sourced article regarding social learning in Redfoot tortoises. I guess they learn from each other, at least in laboratory settings, and so that would be a jump in understanding of the sociability of this species. It's interesting to see someone cared enough to implement a publishable study.

Alice S.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Oct 19, 2012)

Alice.S said:


> It's interesting to see someone cared enough to implement a publishable study.
> 
> Alice S.



I don't think it's a question of anyone not caring. Not everyone has the time, resources, etc. to conduct studies, write out and submit articles for peer-review, etc. Of course, funding is a factor, as I took note of this from the link you posted:



> _This work was supported by funding from the Austrian Science Fund (to L.H.) contract number P19574. _



It's easy to perform this kind of stuff when you have someone else writing the checks!


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 19, 2012)

Alice.S said:


> http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/6/5/614.long
> 
> Hey, check this link out, it is a free PubMed sourced article regarding social learning in Redfoot tortoises. I guess they learn from each other, at least in laboratory settings, and so that would be a jump in understanding of the sociability of this species. It's interesting to see someone cared enough to implement a publishable study.
> 
> Alice S.



Cool! Thanks for the scientific article. I love keeping up with the literature, and this looks like a good one. Although, I would have to challenge the authors on one issue. Redfoot tortoises are certainly not as gregarious as dogs or humans, but they do appear to be at least a little more social than most other tortoise species (see previous posts). Given that, it would make sense that they might have an easier time learning from each other than truly a solitary species would. A better subject for this study might have been a _Testudo_, _Gopherus_, or sulcata tortoise.

Having said that, this does look very interesting, and I look forward to reading it more closely. Thanks! 

BTW - I have attached the article to this post in PDF format (see below).


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## terryo (Oct 19, 2012)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> If I'm not mistaken, Terry O here on TFO keeps a redfoot with box turtles, and I think she has observed a similar phenomenon, with the redfoot hanging around the boxies as though it just wants to socialize with them. Did I get that right, Terry?
> 
> Here's a thread I started last year to show a YouTube video of a little box turtle chasing a larger redfoot tortoise. The video has since been taken down, though:
> "Video of box turtle harassing redfoot tortoise"



I raised my Cherry Head with a Three Toed for a few years, since they were both a month old. After I separated them, the CH stopped eating for days and paced the enclosure, finally going into her hide and not coming out at all. After I put them back together, the CH was fine and went back to normal. Pio is 5 years old and she lives, when outside, with Solo (CH) who is 2. I don't think I've ever seen one without the other sitting together, eating together, and if one goes in the pond the other follows. These are my only two tortoises, and I know nothing about any other kind, but, IMO I do think that CH's are very social, and seem to appreciate each others company.


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## lovelyrosepetal (Oct 20, 2012)

This is a good thread. I like reading everyone's opinions about the sociability of tortoises. I have box turtles who sometimes favor each other's presence but mostly like to be alone. My tortoises do seem to prefer to be with each other but not always. It always seems like one is the odd man out in the group of three. I don't know what that means but I think some tortoises might prefer the company of others and some don't.


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## imranuddin93 (Oct 30, 2012)

so question, how much space would be needed per cherryheads/red footed tortoises per adult if you plan on keeping more than 1?


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