# Is owning a tortoise cruel?



## Buddybenj

Is it cruel to take a creature which is meant to live in the wild and make it live in a glass cage for our own enjoyment?


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## Rue

All creatures are meant to live in the wild. Having said that though there is a difference, IMO, between captive bred and wild caught. I wouldn't do it to a wild caught animal, but a captive bred (and raised) animal has experienced captivity from the start and it's part of the animals 'normal' environment.

I think you do, as a pet owner, have to do your best to provide the animal with an 'acceptable' living situation.

So yes, sticking a tortoise in a small aquarium for its entire life is cruel. But housing a tortoise in the best environment you can provide to meet its needs is acceptable.

And regarding keeping an animal for our own amusement or enjoyment? Again, I don't have a problem as long as the animal's needs are met and it isn't stressed unnecessarily.


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## Sara G.

Well that's a tricky question.
Definitely a debatable one.
Personally, I won't buy a wild caught tortoise.
And I do see your point. I'm not entirely a fan of the idea of exotic species being owned as pets (that being said I own some myself), HOWEVER since they are going to be put into the pet trade regardless, I agree with the sale/purchase of captive bred species.
I'm still not supporting wild caught animals, I feel that there's no need at this point to take them out of their environment for retail purposes. But it is going to happen regardless.

There's a lot of little "if" moments and situations to be thought through as well.
My viewpoint on exotic species and that they shouldn't be owned comes from seeing too many of them being improperly kept in captivity. IF the species is going to be kept properly and have a "good" life then that's entirely different. And that's what I try to do, and I'm sure other owners try to do.

Plus, when owning a tortoise--most, if not all of us as keepers--do our very best to mimic their natural environment (to the best of our abilities) but there's no way to do that to perfection.

Ah, I'm rambling here. I don't know if that helped your question or not but there it is from me.


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## Linhdan Nguyen

It depends how you house the tortoise and care for them. But for some its not entertainment. I really love & obsess over my tortoises. My boyfriend and parents think im crazy


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## Team Gomberg

There is nothing cruel going on over here.   
My captive born leopard is well fed, protected from dangers, has an entire yard to himself and won't get eaten by lions or leopards...just sayin...


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## Tom

Buddybenj said:


> Is it cruel to take a creature which is meant to live in the wild and make it live in a glass cage for our own enjoyment?



Wow is that a loaded question…

The answer depends on the species and the care given. Done right it is not cruel in the least. In fact, I would argue that when done reasonably well, a captive animal will have a much better life than a an animal of the same species living in the wild. Think about it: Predators and the ever-present danger of literally being eaten alive, parasites inside and out, no vet care, weather extremes and droughts with no protection, hungry and/or destructive local humans, dangerous terrain, venomous insects, floods, etc… Done wrong, any captive environment can be a cruel place for any animal regardless of where anybody thinks they are "meant" to live.

A captive animal always has clean water, good food, proper temperatures, protection from predators, weather extremes and the elements, protection from other territorial members of its own species, vet care and medicine when needed, freedom from parasites, etc…

In general most animal species live twice as long in captivity as they do in the wild. Given that fact, I have no problem with removing some species from the wild and keeping them in captivity. The species I have are all very adaptable and do very well in captivity. The problem occurs when _too many_ animals of a given species are removed from an area. As long as the numbers are low enough to not effect the sustainability of a given species, I have no problem with harvesting a few animals from the wild to make captive breeding populations to meet the demands of the pet trade. People keeping these sorts of pets is one of the ways love of the wild is engendered. How many kids grew up loving animals and wanting to learn more about them and the environments that they come from because they were exposed to somebody's cool pet as a child. That is exactly what happened to me.

Also, none of my tortoises live in glass cages. They live outside in safe enclosures that are designed and built with their needs in mind.

And who says they are "meant" to live in the wild? What does that even mean?


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## crimson_lotus

Both my turtle and tortoise are rescues, neither of their original owners seemed to want or care for them. I think the situations they once were in could be considered cruel (unintentionally for one of them), but right now all I can do for them is provide them with the right care and make their lives better the best I can. They are certainly healthier and I hope they are happier as well. Owning a tortoise is not cruel, but subjecting them to an inadequate living environment and not giving them the things they need certainly is.

I think the bigger issues are some of the wild caught methods in which the tortoises are collected/transported, pet store availability and misinformation of any tortoise or turtle they may sell, and not enforcing laws on protecting endangered species from extinction. Not that these issues can be cleaned up overnight, but I think educating people like this forum does is a step in the right direction.


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## wellington

To answer your question. Yes, if you are going to make it live in a glass aquarium/cage it's whole life. Is it cruel if you take care of one properly, with a big enclosure inside and outside. Feed, water, hydrate, heat properly and house it properly, then NO, I don't think it is!


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## Buddybenj

Thanks for your replies! Your arguments are convincing.

Sorry if my question was loaded.


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## Hector108

I myself would never house a tortoise in a glass cage. That in my opinion does seem cruel.... I would rather have it in a tortoise table or something of that sort. Tortoises actually do better in captivity than in the wild (if well cared for). Anyways a tortoise in my point of view should also be housed outside if you can provide the needs the animal will require.

If the tort is wild caught i would have it it outside full time as for it is not used to being in really small spaces.

So on my opinion if well cared for and needs are met it is not cruel it can actually be better for the animal itself. As long as the animal is thriving in its home provided then its not cruel, but i think having it in a glass cage would be pretty unsatisfying.


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## Gillian M

Linhdan Nguyen said:


> It depends how you house the tortoise and care for them. But for some its not entertainment. I really love & obsess over my tortoises. My boyfriend and parents think im crazy


People here (in Jordan) think the same of me: "Why would she chose a tort as a pet and keep it "imprisoned" in an apartment, no matter how big the enclosure?"I hear them say when Oli and I are outside.


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## Gillian M

Buddybenj said:


> Is it cruel to take a creature which is meant to live in the wild and make it live in a glass cage for our own enjoyment?


I believe that if the pet owner is taking good care of the animal, with: enclosure/home, diet, warmth and so on, then it is not at all cruel. Actually, the animal could live better and be more healthy.

An interesting question.


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## Rue

The other thing you can think about (or debate, or philosophize, etc.,) if you want to - is keeping a pet, even in the best conditions, right? Is a safe environment a good environment? Should we bubble-wrap our pets?

For example: What kind of a life would you rather live....that of a feral cat with an average lifespan of 3-5 years, or an indoor cat with an average lifespan of 12 years?

People will argue that a 'cage', no matter how luxiouious...is still a cage.

And of course, if you're debating that, you can also debate that animals that are used to the cage, prefer the cage. Example - we live on an acreage. My dogs want IN after being outside for a while...so they can stake out their favourite plush pillow to lie on. It's pretty funny.


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## Linhdan Nguyen

Gillian Moore said:


> People here (in Jordan) think the same of me: "Why would she chose a tort as a pet and keep it "imprisoned" in an apartment, no matter how big the enclosure?"I hear them say when Oli and I are outside.


My mom thinks the same. I think its more of a foreign idea. My mom once went to petsmart and tried to buy all the birds there. When the girl asked her why, she said she was going to let them all go and then my mom left without any birds. I think animals should be able to be free IF it is their native land and they are able to find good and shelter on their own. Captive animals become dependent on us for the most part. 
But yeah, my mom was going to let parakeets and all go and let them fly around in MD. I understand what she was going for BUT it doesnt work like that. 
In fact, many older asians think owning a pet (except a dog and cat) is a sin & cruel.


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## Hector108

Linhdan Nguyen said:


> My mom thinks the same. I think its more of a foreign idea. My mom once went to petsmart and tried to buy all the birds there. When the girl asked her why, she said she was going to let them all go and then my mom left without any birds. I think animals should be able to be free IF it is their native land and they are able to find good and shelter on their own. Captive animals become dependent on us for the most part.
> But yeah, my mom was going to let parakeets and all go and let them fly around in MD. I understand what she was going for BUT it doesnt work like that.
> In fact, many older asians think owning a pet (except a dog and cat) is a sin & cruel.



Wow that's extreme. Actually like a month ago a saw a green parakeet with a group of finches in my backyard (since we own a chicken and a rooster there is some bird food on the ground sometimes).


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## Kapidolo Farms

Buddybenj said:


> Is it cruel to take a creature which is meant to live in the wild and make it live in a glass cage for our own enjoyment?





When was the last time you went camping? Stayed out in the "woods" for some extended period of time. You are an animal and you are in captivity. How's that working out for you??

Super dependent on the quality of care. Cruel is not where one lives but how one lives. That you get enjoyment out of it is not a concern of the tortoise.


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## HappyHermanns

Team Gomberg said:


> There is nothing cruel going on over here.
> My captive born leopard is well fed, protected from dangers, has an entire yard to himself and won't get eaten by lions or leopards...just sayin...
> View attachment 176741



LOOOOVE your Torts pic!! SOOOO CUTE!!


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## HappyHermanns

It seems that I agree with what every one else says on this topic..

"as long as we humans provide to the best of our ability"
They are like my kids. I would never do anything that would jeopardize their saftey or happiness.  

Someone mentioned having them just for entertainment..
Cats and dogs have been kept as pets for how many years..?
To be honest, I love these guys more than anything..
but if I wanted something for entertainment I'd probably get a dog to walk or play fetch with, you know..


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## Gillian M

Linhdan Nguyen said:


> My mom thinks the same. I think its more of a foreign idea. My mom once went to petsmart and tried to buy all the birds there. When the girl asked her why, she said she was going to let them all go and then my mom left without any birds. I think animals should be able to be free IF it is their native land and they are able to find good and shelter on their own. Captive animals become dependent on us for the most part.
> But yeah, my mom was going to let parakeets and all go and let them fly around in MD. I understand what she was going for BUT it doesnt work like that.
> In fact, many older asians think owning a pet (except a dog and cat) is a sin & cruel.


I know what you mean Linhan Njuyen. Yes, very many people say/think it is cruel (or a sin as you put it) to own a pet in the Arab World.; including a cat or a dog. Mind you the millionaires here own dogs only for one reason: they buy dogs to guard and protect their luxurious cars, three/four floor villas and other property, in which case owning the animal is not a sin any more. Very contradictory, but true I am sorry to say.


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## Linhdan Nguyen

Gillian Moore said:


> I know what you mean Linhan Njuyen. Yes, very many people say/think it is cruel (or a sin as you put it) to own a pet in the Arab World.; including a cat or a dog. Mind you the millionaires here own dogs only for one reason: they buy dogs to guard and protect their luxurious cars, three/four floor villas and other property, in which case owning the animal is not a sin any more. Very contradictory, but true I am sorry to say.


Yeah, BUT she knows im crazy about my tortoises. Since i dont have a nice backyard i always take them to her backyard thats pesticide free and has a good amount of weeds. When i start clipping weeds she goes "for your tortoises... AGAIN?!?!" Lol 
I think were doing great with caring for our tortoise. So no cruelty here


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## Linhdan Nguyen

Hector108 said:


> Wow that's extreme. Actually like a month ago a saw a green parakeet with a group of finches in my backyard (since we own a chicken and a rooster there is some bird food on the ground sometimes).


Yes, that is my mom. Lol 
Do you see them often?! Or just that once? 
Im not sure where you live but its cold and snowy in Maryland during the winter and birds always migrate to warmer areas (not just geese im assuming since i never see the smaller birds either) so i would feel terrible if she let them free and they didnt know to migrate and died from the cold. 
But maybe its bird instinct to go to warmer areas?


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## Gillian M

Linhdan Nguyen said:


> Yeah, BUT she knows im crazy about my tortoises. Since i dont have a nice backyard i always take them to her backyard thats pesticide free and has a good amount of weeds. When i start clipping weeds she goes "for your tortoises... AGAIN?!?!" Lol
> I think were doing great with caring for our tortoise. So no cruelty here


That is why I take Oli out for "walks" if so I may call them. I am 100% sure he enjoys roaming around outside without boundaries/borders.


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## Hector108

Linhdan Nguyen said:


> Yes, that is my mom. Lol
> Do you see them often?! Or just that once?
> Im not sure where you live but its cold and snowy in Maryland during the winter and birds always migrate to warmer areas (not just geese im assuming since i never see the smaller birds either) so i would feel terrible if she let them free and they didnt know to migrate and died from the cold.
> But maybe its bird instinct to go to warmer areas?



I have just seen that bird once. I live down here on Brownsville, Texas so in winter it doesnt get very cold. In winter i see large groups of crows flying across the sky but i sometimes still see groups that big through out the year, so i dont know if they're migrating.


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## Linhdan Nguyen

Hector108 said:


> I have just seen that bird once. I live down here on Brownsville, Texas so in winter it doesnt get very cold. In winter i see large groups of crows flying across the sky but i sometimes still see groups that big through out the year, so i dont know if they're migrating.


Hmmm, the only time i see crows are when it gets colder. Interesting


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## Linhdan Nguyen

Gillian Moore said:


> That is why I take Oli out for "walks" if so I may call them. I am 100% sure he enjoys roaming around outside without boundaries/borders.


I was about to say "im sure every tortoise likes it" but Khaleesi is always ehhh about it. I think shes just not good with the change though. So roaming time in my moms backyard is like going to the beach for the first time. Its so niceeeee, but shes like WHAT IS THIS PLACE O_O


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## theguy67

Tom said:


> And who says they are "meant" to live in the wild? What does that even mean?



I have the same problem with statements like that. I understand OP's point when saying they weren't "meant" to be in captivity, and I'm not referring to him, but I have seen people use this argument for the movement to close Zoos and Aquariums because animals were not "meant" or "made" for captivity. 

My take on this:

Putting religion to the side for a minute, humans are the only ones that assign meaning to, well, everything. To me it doesn't make sense to say an animal belongs in the wild, because of meaning. If a rock hit earth tonight, the Universe would keep chugging along. Now, with our intelligence, humans (should) have an obligation to avoid doing what is considered harmful to others, nature in this case. Of course there are always extremes and finding a balance will never happen as everyone uses a different moral "scale". One end would be removing humans all together, and the other being removing nature. Introducing an animal to the pet market to be captive bred then sold is not necessarily harmful to nature, or the animal assuming all needs are meet. In-fact, the pet trade could help wild populations, as well as promote awareness. 

From the individual animal's perspective, such as a tortoise in our example, its not super intelligent ( no offense). Their psychological/social needs are minimal, so the suffering of it "wishing" to be out in the wild, even if it was taken from the wild, is probably nonexistent. And like others have said, if all other needs are met, they can live a decent life. Now if you look at a much more intelligent animal, such as a whale, that may be a different story. Such an animal has many psychological needs, and spacial needs. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about keeping animals, such as whales, in captivity, when they have demonstrated amazing physical feats, while being complicated socially and psychologically. 

I consider it cruel when an animal is exposed to prolonged, and/or intentional suffering. If a dog was hit by a car that's not cruel, just an accident, unless neglect was involved by the owner. If a tortoise develops MBD from improper diet or lighting, then perhaps that's cruel. Unfortunately many of us had to learn the hard way in this hobby, but we are now armed with the experience to prevent others from going through the same thing.


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## HappyHermanns

theguy67 said:


> I have the same problem with statements like that. I understand OP's point when saying they weren't "meant" to be in captivity, and I'm not referring to him, but I have seen people use this argument for the movement to close Zoos and Aquariums because animals were not "meant" or "made" for captivity.
> 
> From the individual animal's perspective, such as a tortoise in our example, its not super intelligent ( no offense). *Their psychological/social needs are minimal, so the suffering of it "wishing" to be out in the wild, even if it was taken from the wild, is probably nonexistent. And like others have said, if all other needs are met, they can live a decent life. Now if you look at a much more intelligent animal, such as a whale, that may be a different story. Such an animal has many psychological needs, and spacial needs. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about keeping animals, such as whales, in captivity, when they have demonstrated amazing physical feats, while being complicated socially and psychologically.*
> 
> Very well said.


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## TammyJ

I also agree with most of the answers here.It all depends on a lot of things.
I am actually "against" keeping birds in cages, especially too small cages. Because birds have evolved to be flying in the sky, not crawling around in a cage. And dolphins and whales and other captive ocean mammals are supposed to be in the wide and wonderful ocean, not floundering about in a concrete pool. Reptiles crawl on the ground in the wild and we can keep them crawling around on the ground in captivity too. So if their particular needs and comfort are being met, I don't see that as cruel. My opinion.


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## theguy67

TammyJ said:


> I also agree with most of the answers here.It all depends on a lot of things.
> I am actually "against" keeping birds in cages, especially too small cages. Because birds have evolved to be flying in the sky, not crawling around in a cage. And dolphins and whales and other captive ocean mammals are supposed to be in the wide and wonderful ocean, not floundering about in a concrete pool. Reptiles crawl on the ground in the wild and we can keep them crawling around on the ground in captivity too. So if their particular needs and comfort are being met, I don't see that as cruel. My opinion.



That's a very interesting take on it. One that I have not thought of. Now, I do think most species, even whales, can be kept in captivity successfully, but it isn't cost effective to devote a small lake to one animal. The world is run by money, and that will probably never change.


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## HappyHermanns

TammyJ said:


> I also agree with most of the answers here.It all depends on a lot of things.
> I am actually "against" keeping birds in cages, especially too small cages. Because birds have evolved to be flying in the sky, not crawling around in a cage. And dolphins and whales and other captive ocean mammals are supposed to be in the wide and wonderful ocean, not floundering about in a concrete pool. Reptiles crawl on the ground in the wild and we can keep them crawling around on the ground in captivity too. So if their particular needs and comfort are being met, I don't see that as cruel. My opinion.




Nicely put, I couldn't agree more!
Even the biggest tortoise could be well provided for with the right set-up and space.

I am a big whale lover and I have strong opinions on that topic.
I think a fish tank is one thing (when they obviously have enough room) but there literally isn't a tank big enough to give big mammals the necessary room to grow and prosper.
I think things like elephants and giraffs, rhino's, exc. should be in the wild.
With that being said... unfortunately, we are losing so many of our creatures in nature due to us, people, taking their homes away or killing them..
It's the saddest thing ever that one day most of our animals will ONLY be found in zoos or conservation centers..


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## TammyJ

HappyHermanns said:


> Nicely put, I couldn't agree more!
> Even the biggest tortoise could be well provided for with the right set-up and space.
> 
> I am a big whale lover and I have strong opinions on that topic.
> I think a fish tank is one thing (when they obviously have enough room) but there literally isn't a tank big enough to give big mammals the necessary room to grow and prosper.
> I think things like elephants and giraffs, rhino's, exc. should be in the wild.
> With that being said... unfortunately, we are losing so many of our creatures in nature due to us, people, taking their homes away or killing them..
> It's the saddest thing ever that one day most of our animals will ONLY be found in zoos or conservation centers..


Luckily there are still a good many humans who are fighting their whole lives to try to protect and conserve the animals in their natural habitats, by trying to police the parks from poachers, and groups like Greenpeace etc....and the "Sea Shepherd" crew! Long may they fight, I admire them tremendously.

Maybe we humans will disappear before we completely destroy....no. I won't go there!!! LOL. Nuff said.


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## HappyHermanns

TammyJ said:


> Luckily there are still a good many humans who are fighting their whole lives to try to protect and conserve the animals in their natural habitats, by trying to police the parks from poachers, and groups like Greenpeace etc....and the "Sea Shepherd" crew! Long may they fight, I admire them tremendously.
> 
> Maybe we humans will disappear before we completely destroy....no. I won't go there!!! LOL. Nuff said.



LOL.. yea, nuff said. Honestly, I hope your right. 

I was born a tree hugger but in recent years it has really set in. haha
...if only I had money, I would be a force to be reckoned with! lol


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## Tom

HappyHermanns said:


> I think things like elephants and giraffs, rhino's, exc. should be in the wild.



Not addressing just you here. You just had the most quotable quote.

What's the difference between a cichlid in a large fish tank in my living room and a cetacean in a large pool at Seaworld? My fish aren't educating anybody about the plight of wild animals, and my fish don't have a 24/7 staff of caretakers and vets. Does anyone want to make the case that those dolphins are not happy and well cared for. Probably happier and better cared for than most people's dogs and cats. Certainly happier than their wild counterparts dodging predators, pollution, parasites, food shortages, territorial fighting, and humans.

What's the difference between a giraffe herd in a 5 acre enclosure, and a tortoise herd in your back yard? I've seen wild animals in Africa. That is a brutal, cruel, unforgiving existence. I've seen the same species in captivity living free of drought, parasitization, starvation, predation, and territorial fighting with conspecifics. With my human capacity for reason, logic, "feelings" and philosophy, I would MUCH rather be a rhino or Gemsbock living at the San Diego Zoo than living "free" in the wild. Think about this. Who here would rather live outside in a forrest, or out in the Australian Outback, or in a South American Jungle, or in the African Sahel, with no shelter but what you could make with your hands, no protection from predators, no medical care or medicine available, no protection from other humans, no food or water except what you find, etc... I choose my house. I've got clean, healthy drinking water, literally on tap. I've got a lovely roof and walls to protect me from all the elements. I've got fences to keep the wild animals away. I have hospitals and grocery stores. I have police and fire fighters for emergencies. Etc...

I think we need to tread lightly here. This is dipping into animal rights territory, and those people are the enemy of pet keepers and meat eaters. They would like to ban you from keeping any pets, including domestic dogs and cats. I think the next person that says animals are better off in the wild needs to get rid of all their pets, and then go try living in the wild for a year. Experience the heat of summer and the cold of winter without all of our comforts. You go live off the land for a year and then come back and tell me how much better life in the wild is. If you survive.


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## HappyHermanns

Tom said:


> Not addressing just you here. You just had the most quotable quote.
> 
> What's the difference between a cichlid in a large fish tank in my living room and a cetacean in a large pool at Seaworld? My fish aren't educating anybody about the plight of wild animals, and my fish don't have a 24/7 staff of caretakers and vets. Does anyone want to make the case that those dolphins are not happy and well cared for. Probably happier and better cared for than most people's dogs and cats. Certainly happier than their wild counterparts dodging predators, pollution, parasites, food shortages, territorial fighting, and humans.
> 
> What's the difference between a giraffe herd in a 5 acre enclosure, and a tortoise herd in your back yard? I've seen wild animals in Africa. That is a brutal, cruel, unforgiving existence. I've seen the same species in captivity living free of drought, parasitization, starvation, predation, and territorial fighting with conspecifics. With my human capacity for reason, logic, "feelings" and philosophy, I would MUCH rather be a rhino or Gemsbock living at the San Diego Zoo than living "free" in the wild. Think about this. Who here would rather live outside in a forrest, or out in the Australian Outback, or in a South American Jungle, or in the African Sahel, with no shelter but what you could make with your hands, no protection from predators, no medical care or medicine available, no protection from other humans, no food or water except what you find, etc... I choose my house. I've got clean, healthy drinking water, literally on tap. I've got a lovely roof and walls to protect me from all the elements. I've got fences to keep the wild animals away. I have hospitals and grocery stores. I have police and fire fighters for emergencies. Etc...
> 
> I think we need to tread lightly here. This is dipping into animal rights territory, and those people are the enemy of pet keepers and meat eaters. They would like to ban you from keeping any pets, including domestic dogs and cats. I think the next person that says animals are better off in the wild needs to get rid of all their pets, and then go try living in the wild for a year. Experience the heat of summer and the cold of winter without all of our comforts. You go live off the land for a year and then come back and tell me how much better life in the wild is. If you survive.




Good point Tom.
I agree with you.. to a point. haha
Let me just say this (getting back to tortoises for example), A Hermann's can find up to 200 different varieties of plants and flowers in the wild.. I can't offer them NEARLY that at home. While we (or someone.. that isn't me..lol) know the names of most of those- a lot just cant grow where I am in Michigan.
I figure I can push through that and at least offer a lot of options- even if not 1/4 of them.. to make our guys happy..

it Is easier to provide a good home for them vs a lot of other animals, same as cats and dogs and fish. But how is 1 acher or even 5 achers enough for a rhino to run.. or a giraff to "stretch".. or a lion to act as it would in it's natural home.. Thankfully, most people that work with animals (in zoos, exc) love them and WANT to do the best by them. THAT is the only good thing I can think of. (o, yea.. and probably that they don't have to fear for their lives, as much, is good too )

It's crazy that both sides can make so much sense.. haha.. There are contradictions everywhere..


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## Yvonne G

If I just allow the weeds and grass to grow in my tortoise yards, eventually, over the years, there's plenty of variety for my tortoises to graze on. Is it pretty? Is it sculpted and mowed? Is it lovely to look at? No, quite the opposite, but the tortoises have a nice variety of things to eat.


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## HappyHermanns

Yvonne G said:


> If I just allow the weeds and grass to grow in my tortoise yards, eventually, over the years, there's plenty of variety for my tortoises to graze on. Is it pretty? Is it sculpted and mowed? Is it lovely to look at? No, quite the opposite, but the tortoises have a nice variety of things to eat.



That is my goal!! I have been planting seeds like mad and just keep begging them to grow faster!! lol
I can't wait to be able to plant some in the enclosures!
Do you just plant in the soil and cover it with substrate? or do you plant the whole pot?
I'm not there yet but have been wondering about the best way to do that when the time comes. 

Nice topic change, by the way


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## Tom

HappyHermanns said:


> Good point Tom.
> I agree with you.. to a point. haha
> Let me just say this (getting back to tortoises for example), A Hermann's can find up to 200 different varieties of plants and flowers in the wild.. I can't offer them NEARLY that at home. While we (or someone.. that isn't me..lol) know the names of most of those- a lot just cant grow where I am in Michigan.
> I figure I can push through that and at least offer a lot of options- even if not 1/4 of them.. to make our guys happy..
> 
> it Is easier to provide a good home for them vs a lot of other animals, same as cats and dogs and fish. But how is 1 acher or even 5 achers enough for a rhino to run.. or a giraff to "stretch".. or a lion to act as it would in it's natural home.. Thankfully, most people that work with animals (in zoos, exc) love them and WANT to do the best by them. THAT is the only good thing I can think of. (o, yea.. and probably that they don't have to fear for their lives, as much, is good too )
> 
> It's crazy that both sides can make so much sense.. haha.. There are contradictions everywhere..



Russian tortoises have been documented wandering for miles a day in the wild. Probably farther than a giraffe or rhino on some days. Why is it okay to confine a russian tortoise, but not a giraffe.

In SouthAfrica, which is rich in tortoise species, there are over 22,000 species of plants available for consumption. What is your point in bringing this up? Do we not meet our captive animals nutritional needs with what we have available?

I hate it that tone doesn't make it into the typed word. I find it necessary to explain my tone. I'm not mad or argumentative here, just asking thought provoking questions and making conversation in a friendly tone with other animal keepers. I don't anyone to feel like this is a hostile conversation in any way.


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## HappyHermanns

Tom said:


> Russian tortoises have been documented wandering for miles a day in the wild. Probably farther than a giraffe or rhino on some days. Why is it okay to confine a russian tortoise, but not a giraffe.
> 
> In SouthAfrica, which is rich in tortoise species, there are over 22,000 species of plants available for consumption. What is your point in bringing this up? Do we not meet our captive animals nutritional needs with what we have available?
> 
> I hate it that tone doesn't make it into the typed word. I find it necessary to explain my tone. I'm not mad or argumentative here, just asking thought provoking questions and making conversation in a friendly tone with other animal keepers. I don't anyone to feel like this is a hostile conversation in any way.



Thanks Tom.
I'm not taking offense at all. 
But I have to say your thought provoking questions are tricky..lol..
I mean..IIII know my reasons, but putting it into words is harder than I'd thought.

My only point in bringing up the food if that they each such a big variety (and my giraff example- probably eat 1/1000 of that variety.. so aside from their space necessities the food part would be easy..er..lol)) I guess it just seems like EVERYthing would be better in the wild.. Mother nature isn't always nice but it is natural.

If only people did what was right by all creatures, (providing the very best they can) I don't think there'd be any problems.
If whale, giraff, rhino exc enclosures could be expanded (by alot) then I wouldn't feel so badly for them..
As it is..even if there is no rhyme or reason, I feel for them.


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## theguy67

Tom said:


> Not addressing just you here. You just had the most quotable quote.
> 
> What's the difference between a cichlid in a large fish tank in my living room and a cetacean in a large pool at Seaworld? My fish aren't educating anybody about the plight of wild animals, and my fish don't have a 24/7 staff of caretakers and vets. Does anyone want to make the case that those dolphins are not happy and well cared for. Probably happier and better cared for than most people's dogs and cats. Certainly happier than their wild counterparts dodging predators, pollution, parasites, food shortages, territorial fighting, and humans.
> 
> What's the difference between a giraffe herd in a 5 acre enclosure, and a tortoise herd in your back yard? I've seen wild animals in Africa. That is a brutal, cruel, unforgiving existence. I've seen the same species in captivity living free of drought, parasitization, starvation, predation, and territorial fighting with conspecifics. With my human capacity for reason, logic, "feelings" and philosophy, I would MUCH rather be a rhino or Gemsbock living at the San Diego Zoo than living "free" in the wild. Think about this. Who here would rather live outside in a forrest, or out in the Australian Outback, or in a South American Jungle, or in the African Sahel, with no shelter but what you could make with your hands, no protection from predators, no medical care or medicine available, no protection from other humans, no food or water except what you find, etc... I choose my house. I've got clean, healthy drinking water, literally on tap. I've got a lovely roof and walls to protect me from all the elements. I've got fences to keep the wild animals away. I have hospitals and grocery stores. I have police and fire fighters for emergencies. Etc...
> 
> I think we need to tread lightly here. This is dipping into animal rights territory, and those people are the enemy of pet keepers and meat eaters. They would like to ban you from keeping any pets, including domestic dogs and cats. I think the next person that says animals are better off in the wild needs to get rid of all their pets, and then go try living in the wild for a year. Experience the heat of summer and the cold of winter without all of our comforts. You go live off the land for a year and then come back and tell me how much better life in the wild is. If you survive.




To the fish vs cetacean argument. I think the difference is your fish is a simpler creature. They have a lower capacity for reason and emotion compared to whales. How do we know if they are happy? Do fish even have a capacity for happiness, or is it just a non-stressed state? I would hesitate to imply there isn't a difference. We also would have to define what "happiness" is for each animal. I'm honestly undecided if keeping whales, as Sea World does, is right or wrong when considering the individual animal, and the habitat provided. There is a whole spectrum of "ethical scenarios" that can be questioned. Does offering protection to an animal mean it has a "better" life? My biggest issue is the size of the habitat, which is obviously the same issue many share; however, as I have said that I am undecided, I am not qualified to conclude, nor have I researched if the orcas are just fine in their current set up. It is easy for us outsiders, and even easier for those who do not work with animals to see these whales, or any other animal in a cage, as prisoners.

I realize the logical choice between living on your own in the wilderness vs in the safety of society is quite obvious for a human, but not so much for the animal. A response from an animal rights activist may be "if this is true, why not round up as many animals as we can?". I'm certainly not on their side, but I think its important to consider how they reason and their "logic" when trying to understand both sides. Again, with the giraffe vs tortoise argument, my response would be similar to the fish vs orca. I do not see many people bringing up psychological needs and the differences between other species. However, humans have been keeping livestock for thousands of years, which giraffes are similar to, so they may be easier to keep in captivity than a whale.

I do agree that this is dangerous territory on an internet forum, but glad to see that our members are being constructive about it. I also think it is an important thing to consider when you are part of a hobby that is constantly attacked by those who do not understand what is involved.


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## TammyJ

As has been suggested and pointed out here, the intelligence of the animal probably has a lot to do with whether or not they are "happy" in captivity. Also the way they are treated and housed. There are too many ifs and buts to count!
I have a lot of pets and I love them all and try to do the best for them.
I also "use" these pets (especially the reptiles!) to teach the kids in my area how beautiful reptiles are, something that always surprises and delights them. Some of them cannot believe that they won't get "stung" by the snakes! So, a bit of education thrown in.
I still feel sorry for birds in small cages and captive whales. "Safe" and well fed or not. That is just me!
I really like this site.


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## kelii

I don't thinks it's cruel to keep any animal captive, as long as it's properly cared for. Personally, I'd rather be a properly cared for captive animal than one struggling in the wild. The wild is a brutal place. There's a reason we don't live there any more


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## tortoishell

I understand why you would think this, I honestly do. I don't think that destroying an animal's habitat is right at all, and we have no right to do it. Nonetheless, it is happening. Your tortoise may have come from a place that's heavily polluted, or being invaded by humans, you get the point. I believe is better for a tortoise to make a few sacrifices-less space, foraging, etc, and to have a safe place to sleep, mate, eat, than for a tortoise to have total freedom in the wild and die because of human causes (deforestation, pollution). Many species are endangered, and I think it is a great thing that we have so many experienced keepers to make their captive life as close to the wild as possible. Many of us, as mentioned before, are giving our lives to making sure animals are equal to us as they should be, and I have not met a single forum member that doesn't think of their tortoise before they think if their own preferences. I don't think we keep tortoises solely for our enjoyment. The rewards that both the owner and the tortoise get, when the latter is content, are heartwarming.


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## HappyHermanns

tortoishell said:


> I understand why you would think this, I honestly do. I don't think that destroying an animal's habitat is right at all, and we have no right to do it. Nonetheless, it is happening. Your tortoise may have come from a place that's heavily polluted, or being invaded by humans, you get the point. I believe is better for a tortoise to make a few sacrifices-less space, foraging, etc, and to have a safe place to sleep, mate, eat, than for a tortoise to have total freedom in the wild and die because of human causes (deforestation, pollution). Many species are endangered, and I think it is a great thing that we have so many experienced keepers to make their captive life as close to the wild as possible. Many of us, as mentioned before, are giving our lives to making sure animals are equal to us as they should be, and I have not met a single forum member that doesn't think of their tortoise before they think if their own preferences. I don't think we keep tortoises solely for our enjoyment. The rewards that both the owner and the tortoise get, when the latter is content, are heartwarming.



Very nicely put.


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## tortoishell

. Also, I think some keepers (it might have been Yvonne) run sanctuaries for tortoises that have been injured. Not all keepers do it for entertainment.


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## Riley ann

I don’t see anything wrong as long as they are properly cared for and it’s not like we pull them out the wild. They don’t know any better.


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## seanang168

Keeping birds in a cage is the worst. Depriving them of freedom of flight


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## Tom

Riley ann said:


> I don’t see anything wrong as long as they are properly cared for and it’s not like we pull them out the wild. They don’t know any better.



Yes we do pull some of them out of the wild, and as long as they are cared for properly and as long as we and not pulling too many out of the wild, there is nothing wrong with it. Every animal in captivity every where in the world was pulled out of the wild at some point. As Kelii noted earlier in the thread, the wild is a very cruel and harsh place. Lots of pain, suffering and death. Captivity, done correctly, is a much nicer place to live.


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## Tom

seanang168 said:


> Keeping birds in a cage is the worst. Depriving them of freedom of flight



I don't agree in all cases. In some cases, caged birds have a great life. Really depends on the species and situation.


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## JoesMum

My personal thoughts on this. I don’t expect anyone to agree and I shan’t post again in this thread. Shout me down if you must, but I want my say. 

I would rather have nature left in its own habitat and thriving. 

However, I am all too aware that in some parts of the world the natural environment has been, or is being, destroyed by my fellow human beings either directly or indirectly through things like climate change. 

I really wish I could wave a magic wand and sort it out, but all I can do is try to do what I can to reduce my impact on the environment and hope others do likewise. 

Rescuing wild animals for controlled breeding programmes is one thing. Taking them from the wild as pets where their genes are permanently lost to the wild gene pool is not something I am not at all comfortable with. 

*So why did I own a wild caught tortoise?*
Joe was part of the package when I dated my now husband. He was caught at a time when people were considerably less environmentally aware than they are now - long before CITES. 

*Would I own a wild caught tortoise again?*
Only if it was a pre CITES old-stager like Joe needing a new home. I would never consider owning any animal wild caught purely as a pet. I am comfortable with owning a captive bred tortoise.

Yes, “the wild” is a dangerous place and has been for millennia. The fix for these animals is us humans cleaning up our act rather than taking animals and keeping them in our homes; they and their offspring can never be used to repopulate the wild. I’ll happily donate money to conservation programmes rescuing creatures properly, but I will never consider an animal caught for the pet trade as a good thing or as saving it from worse. 

I don’t think it is cruel to own a tortoise. They can live long, happy and healthy lives with us. It is only the circumstances that lead to them coming into the care of humans that I have strong opinions on.


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## Big Charlie

seanang168 said:


> Keeping birds in a cage is the worst. Depriving them of freedom of flight


I don't agree. I've had several pet birds. They didn't spend their entire lives in cages. They came out everyday, sat on my shoulder, and kept me company. They were put back in their cages for their safety at night. The relationship you develop with a bird can be as close and loving as that with a dog.

My tortoise was captive bred. He wasn't snatched out his native environment. I believe I've given him the best life I could possibly give him.


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## Bee62

The title of the thread is unfortunately inaccurate to my opinion. Owning a tortoise is not cruel, but cruelty is:

1. Owning any animal that was caught in the wild and now kept in captivity in wrong conditions
2. Owning any animal and neglect or abuse it

It also depends on the intelligence of the animal if keeping it in captivity is cruel or not. 
A spider in a small glas vivarium will not suffer, but an ape will never be happy in a cage how big the cage might be.

So when you own an animal you have the responsibility to keep it so "natural" as possible.
That means that birds should be able to fly every day and only sleep in their cage, and it means that tortoises should have much space to roam. The right food and warmth and humidity naturally too. When these parameters are fullfilled, it is not cruel to own a tortoise.
This is my opinion.


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## Alaskamike

I have glanced at this thread occasionally without comment. Just interesting. This debate will continue with many people on all sides - some extreme. 

@Tom makes a valid point. The “ wild “ many wish to idealize is a brutal & unforgiving place. I’ve seen it , been out in it. There are many hazards. 

We humans can provide safety , food, security , vet care, but often at the expense of freedom. 

It often comes down to what animal is discussed. The social needs of various species varies greatly. Space, heat, water, need for other of same kind, foods vary. So does mental ability & awareness. 

Most animals , especially those with limited mental capacities live in the moment. Without going deeply into neurological brain chemistry, it is thought that living in the moment is commonplace. Ruminating on the past or worrying about the future is a higher function. 

There is no science to think that my Aldabra is much worried about tomorrow. Only it’s needs in the moment. Which I am able to fulfill. 

So no , I don’t think it is cruel to keep a tortoise. If done properly.


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## Tom

JoesMum said:


> My personal thoughts on this. I don’t expect anyone to agree and I shan’t post again in this thread. Shout me down if you must, but I want my say.
> 
> I would rather have nature left in its own habitat and thriving.
> 
> However, I am all too aware that in some parts of the world the natural environment has been, or is being, destroyed by my fellow human beings either directly or indirectly through things like climate change.
> 
> I really wish I could wave a magic wand and sort it out, but all I can do is try to do what I can to reduce my impact on the environment and hope others do likewise.
> 
> Rescuing wild animals for controlled breeding programmes is one thing. Taking them from the wild as pets where their genes are permanently lost to the wild gene pool is not something I am not at all comfortable with.
> 
> *So why did I own a wild caught tortoise?*
> Joe was part of the package when I dated my now husband. He was caught at a time when people were considerably less environmentally aware than they are now - long before CITES.
> 
> *Would I own a wild caught tortoise again?*
> Only if it was a pre CITES old-stager like Joe needing a new home. I would never consider owning any animal wild caught purely as a pet. I am comfortable with owning a captive bred tortoise.
> 
> Yes, “the wild” is a dangerous place and has been for millennia. The fix for these animals is us humans cleaning up our act rather than taking animals and keeping them in our homes; they and their offspring can never be used to repopulate the wild. I’ll happily donate money to conservation programmes rescuing creatures properly, but I will never consider an animal caught for the pet trade as a good thing or as saving it from worse.
> 
> I don’t think it is cruel to own a tortoise. They can live long, happy and healthy lives with us. It is only the circumstances that lead to them coming into the care of humans that I have strong opinions on.



I'm sad that you feel like anyone would want to shout you down. I have tremendous respect for you, and I happen to like you a whole bunch too. I don't want to shout you down, but I would love to have a respectful conversation with you, or anyone else on this subject.

Who here hasn't seen footage of wildebeest being literally torn apart by crocodiles during the great migration, or a zebra being set upon by an entire pride of lions and then literally eaten alive, *** end first? We've seen what raccoons do to turtles here on the forum in our yards. Is there any reason to think they don't do that in the wild?

Even if wild animals are living in pristine wilderness, where humans have not yet ruined things, it is still a torturous existence. Ever had an off day where you just didn't feel 100%. Maybe you were feeling a little tired and dragging your feet a bit… If a wild animal has one day like that, they die. Some predator grabs them and literally eats them alive. Then think about how your final days will be. Sure, some of us will die in unexpected accidents, but most of us will die in a comfy hospital bed with pain meds and medical care doing everything possible to make us feel comfortable as we pass on. Wild animals almost always die a slow, horrible, painful death. Starvation, drought, predation, disease… Even the slightest injury can be a death sentence for an animal in the wild. Regarding tortoises, how many babies die for every one that makes it to maturity? The numbers I've seen range from 300-1000.

In light of these facts, I don't have any problem saving a wild animal from a horrible and painful death, and bringing them into a safe captive environment where all of their needs will be met every day, with no predation, and top notch medical care for anything and everything. I would have a problem if too many of a given species were being taken, but there is nothing wrong with taking sustainable numbers. I've been working with wild caught animals since the 80s, and let me tell you, captivity ain't bad compared to the trials and tribulations of the wild. You know where wild hawks go when it rains? Nowhere. They sit in the rain and suffer. If they get too cold and burn to many calories, or their feathers get to waterlogged to fly well and hunt, they starve to death. But they don't starve to death over night. It takes days. Days of their body digesting itself in a futile attempt to stay alive. Not my hawk. I kidnapped her out of the wild totally against her will. Then I ran fecal after fecal on her until I had rid her body of three separate diseases that would surely have killed her, plus two species of parasitic worms that were taking a toll, plus feather mites that were literally eating her alive, plus these little flat parasitic flies that I've always called sheep keds, but I think they are in the family Hippoboscidae.

We will certainly all agree that _over_-collection of wild animals is a problem, but I'm not sure if we can agree that collecting sustainable numbers is just fine. I think it is. Like the deer populations. In areas where they ban hunting, the deer become overpopulated, the parasites and diseases become epidemic and the ecosystem becomes terribly out of balance. Not good for the deer or any other species in the area. By contrasts, managing the population and keeping the correct numbers for a given area creates a healthy deer population and ecosystem.


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## WithLisa

Alaskamike said:


> The “ wild “ many wish to idealize is a brutal & unforgiving place. I’ve seen it , been out in it. There are many hazards.


Sounds like a strange argument to me since almost all of us are living in the "wild", no matter if it's a forest, a desert or an urban jungle. but although our lifes can be very harsh and dangerous most of us still prefer it over prison, don't we? 
Of course that does not necessarily mean a tortoise would make the same choice, it's a pity we can't just ask them.


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## Tidgy's Dad

Tom said:


> I'm sad that you feel like anyone would want to shout you down. I have tremendous respect for you, and I happen to like you a whole bunch too. I don't want to shout you down, but I would love to have a respectful conversation with you, or anyone else on this subject.
> 
> Who here hasn't seen footage of wildebeest being literally torn apart by crocodiles during the great migration, or a zebra being set upon by an entire pride of lions and then literally eaten alive, *** end first? We've seen what raccoons do to turtles here on the forum in our yards. Is there any reason to think they don't do that in the wild?
> 
> Even if wild animals are living in pristine wilderness, where humans have not yet ruined things, it is still a torturous existence. Ever had an off day where you just didn't feel 100%. Maybe you were feeling a little tired and dragging your feet a bit… If a wild animal has one day like that, they die. Some predator grabs them and literally eats them alive. Then think about how your final days will be. Sure, some of us will die in unexpected accidents, but most of us will die in a comfy hospital bed with pain meds and medical care doing everything possible to make us feel comfortable as we pass on. Wild animals almost always die a slow, horrible, painful death. Starvation, drought, predation, disease… Even the slightest injury can be a death sentence for an animal in the wild. Regarding tortoises, how many babies die for every one that makes it to maturity? The numbers I've seen range from 300-1000.
> 
> In light of these facts, I don't have any problem saving a wild animal from a horrible and painful death, and bringing them into a safe captive environment where all of their needs will be met every day, with no predation, and top notch medical care for anything and everything. I would have a problem if too many of a given species were being taken, but there is nothing wrong with taking sustainable numbers. I've been working with wild caught animals since the 80s, and let me tell you, captivity ain't bad compared to the trials and tribulations of the wild. You know where wild hawks go when it rains? Nowhere. They sit in the rain and suffer. If they get too cold and burn to many calories, or their feathers get to waterlogged to fly well and hunt, they starve to death. But they don't starve to death over night. It takes days. Days of their body digesting itself in a futile attempt to stay alive. Not my hawk. I kidnapped her out of the wild totally against her will. Then I ran fecal after fecal on her until I had rid her body of three separate diseases that would surely have killed her, plus two species of parasitic worms that were taking a toll, plus feather mites that were literally eating her alive, plus these little flat parasitic flies that I've always called sheep keds, but I think they are in the family Hippoboscidae.
> 
> We will certainly all agree that _over_-collection of wild animals is a problem, but I'm not sure if we can agree that collecting sustainable numbers is just fine. I think it is. Like the deer populations. In areas where they ban hunting, the deer become overpopulated, the parasites and diseases become epidemic and the ecosystem becomes terribly out of balance. Not good for the deer or any other species in the area. By contrasts, managing the population and keeping the correct numbers for a given area creates a healthy deer population and ecosystem.


People are scared of you,Tom, people know how you are likely to react. I know I am. Rightly or wrongly, that is the truth. 
Of course we've all seen nature red in tooth and claw. Are you saying we are "good" because we can stop crocs eating wildebeest or lions eating zebras? That our responsibility is to protect these poor things by sticking them in zoos and feeding the predators "humanely" killed snacks? 
You are comparing humans to other animals, yet again, in your hospital remarks, this is irrelevant, you cannot compare this to the natural world, though millions of humans do still die horrible and pointless deaths due to disease, starvation and even, sometimes because of animal attacks, including other humans. 
You are not some sort of hero because you are, "saving a wild animal from a horrible and painful death," what gives you the right to decide what lives and what dies? Rescuing a gnu just results in fewer gnus for the lions to eat, they'll eat another one instead, ergo fewer gnus and fewer lions. Who decides "sustainable numbers" ? You and your mates, I suppose. Which ones do you take, and which ones do you leave behind? We need genetic variation, so how do you tell which ones are not related? I'm pretty sure the collectors will take the healthy, pretty, strong animals, not the mangy or unattractive ones.
And your hawk story is an odd one to use as an example, fascinating stuff, but how do you know it would be dead if it were still in the wild ? It may have had babies by now, but with you it certainly hasn't. Okay it had parasites, but are you saying you would have released it if it hadn't ? Of course you wouldn't. And, and I'm sorry to say it, but your last one died anyway. 

The deer become "overpopulated" because either they don't have enough room left to expand into, or because people have shot all their natural predators. Ecosystems will remain healthy if you just leave them alone. If there is extinction, suffering, death and evolution, that's fine, that's what's been going on for billions of years without the need for you to intervene. I know man has tipped the balance and we are now experiencing the sixth great extinction, but protected areas, conservation and education are the way forward, not keeping the animals in our houses. Rescues, like my torts, are one thing, captive bred, okay, but taking animals from the wild to fulfill our own selfish needs is wrong.


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## mark1

Tom said:


> Wild animals almost always die a slow, horrible, painful death. Starvation, drought, predation, disease
> .



honestly i have no doubt the same way most die in captivity .....most are bought and thought of as disposable objects , if they weren't the US would be overrun with adult red eared sliders , sulcatas , caimans , parrots , goldfish , horses , boas , pythons and on and on ....... the only problems i've ever seen with over population of exotics are ones that have escaped into suitable wild environments ............


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## Tom

WithLisa said:


> Sounds like a strange argument to me since almost all of us are living in the "wild", no matter if it's a forest, a desert or an urban jungle. but although our lifes can be very harsh and dangerous most of us still prefer it over prison, don't we?
> Of course that does not necessarily mean a tortoise would make the same choice, it's a pity we can't just ask them.



Your assumption that an animal would view captivity as a "prison" doesn't bear out in reality. Because a human might feel that way, does not mean an animal would. I illustrate this point with chimps and dogs. Chimps do not like to be contained in crates. It goes against their nature. DOgs on the other hand, being den animals, enjoy and seek out tiny little confined spaces. It makes a dog feel safe and secure to stuff themselves into a tiny hole in the ground. Given the choice, dogs will choose a small area of confinement for their sleeping quarters.

Further, I don't know how it is in your town, but where I live within an insulted housed, electricity, hot and cold running water, heating and air conditioning, two refrigerators and freezers, vehicles to ride around in with A/C and heat, plus just about any comfort or amenity you can think of, no, I think a very small percentage of humans are living in the "wild" on this planet.


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## Tom

mark1 said:


> honestly i have no doubt the same way most die in captivity...



Really? How many of your personal animals have died this way? How many of mine?

What are you basing this off of? I see a lot of captive animals on a daily basis. Animals have been my career and profession since the mid 80s. I don't see most animals dying this way in captivity. Surely we all know that some small percentage of people are neglectful or abusive, but to say "most"? No. That has not been my observation. Nowhere near most.


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## Yvonne G

I think the subject question is misleading. Having an animal isn't cruel, but how the animal is taken care of can sometimes be pretty darned cruel.


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## Tom

Tidgy's Dad said:


> People are scared of you,Tom, people know how you are likely to react. I know I am. Rightly or wrongly, that is the truth.



I can't argue with anyone's feelings. People feel how they feel. But I don't understand why anyone would be afraid of some guy typing words on the internet. What? Do you think I'm going to fly to Morocco and offer to exchange fisticuffs with you if you type something I don't like? You are my friend and so is Joe's Mum. Nothing to fear and no reason we can't have a conversation on a topic we disagree upon. Discussion is a good thing. We can learn more about the subject matter and learn more about each other's POV.



Tidgy's Dad said:


> Of course we've all seen nature red in tooth and claw. Are you saying we are "good" because we can stop crocs eating wildebeest or lions eating zebras? That our responsibility is to protect these poor things by sticking them in zoos and feeding the predators "humanely" killed snacks?
> You are comparing humans to other animals, yet again, in your hospital remarks, this is irrelevant, you cannot compare this to the natural world, though millions of humans do still die horrible and pointless deaths due to disease, starvation and even, sometimes because of animal attacks, including other humans.



Is it our responsibility to save all wild animals from harm? Of course not. Is it our prerogative to save some of them? Sure. Why not?

The hospital reference is in relation to how most humans will die, in comparison to how most wild animals will die.



Tidgy's Dad said:


> You are not some sort of hero because you are, "saving a wild animal from a horrible and painful death," what gives you the right to decide what lives and what dies? Rescuing a gnu just results in fewer gnus for the lions to eat, they'll eat another one instead, ergo fewer gnus and fewer lions. Who decides "sustainable numbers" ? You and your mates, I suppose. Which ones do you take, and which ones do you leave behind? We need genetic variation, so how do you tell which ones are not related? I'm pretty sure the collectors will take the healthy, pretty, strong animals, not the mangy or unattractive ones.



Hero? Hmm… This paragraph made me stop and think. In answer to your question: In some cases, yes, the people taking animals from the wild _are_ heroes. Some examples: The peregrin falcon, California condor, Burmese star tortoise, Giant panda, and the sulcata tortoise in many parts of its range. All of these would be extinct if it weren't for the efforts of people who took them from the wild and undertook the difficult process of captive breeding and reintroduction. Is someone a hero for saving one wildebeest from the jaws of a croc. No. I don't think so, but if that wildebeest had human powers of logic and reason, I bet he would. So yes, sometimes taking animals from the wild is a heroic thing to do. I wish that humans hadn't created these dire situations that require rescue in the first place, but that is a whole 'nother discussion.

Who decides the numbers that are "sustainable"? Entire teams and departments of trained wildlife biologists who spend their lives observing what takes place out in the wild, collecting and evaluating population data, and adjusting policy annually to keep the wild populations at optimal health and density. Me and my mates have absolutely no say in the matter.

Next question: What gives me the right to decide? I've pondered this one many times. I answer it with some questions: What gives the lion the right to prey upon the zebra? What gives the tortoise the right to decimate a sprouting weed patch? What gives you the right to eat whatever you ate last night for dinner? I don't see this as a question of "rights". I see it more of a question of "right or wrong". Some people seem to have this aversion to collecting or taking any animals from the wild as if it is all bad all the time and they want nothing to do with it, and the practice and the people who engage in the practice are to be insulted and vilified as if they are evil and don't care about the ecosystem or the world. I don't see it this way. Can people go too far and do too much? Absolutely! They have and they do. I think _those_ people deserve this vilification, but not _everyone_ who takes animals from the wild is a villain, nor are they _always_ doing harm to the environment or the species. If we didn't take some animals from the wild, some populations would eventually be decimated and entire eco-systems would crash. This has been scientifically demonstrated many times. African elephant policies in neighboring countries is a highly visible demonstration of this. Deer population here in CA is another.

Finally, when discussing genetic diversity, we are talking about populations of millions of animals here. Removing a few animals for food, or for the pet trade, will have zero effect on the genetic diversity of wild populations and does no harm. Removing millions of a given species while simultaneously destroying their natural habitat can and does have a devastating effect as we all know. The former practice is fine with my conscience, the latter should be condemned and halted at every possible turn.



Tidgy's Dad said:


> And your hawk story is an odd one to use as an example, fascinating stuff, but how do you know it would be dead if it were still in the wild ? It may have had babies by now, but with you it certainly hasn't. Okay it had parasites, but are you saying you would have released it if it hadn't ? Of course you wouldn't. And, and I'm sorry to say it, but your last one died anyway.


Odd? I think it serves as a perfect example. Let's apply your questions to it:

Am I a hero for saving this hawk? I think so. Whether you or anyone else thinks so is up to them.
Would this bird have died if left in the wild? Medical science, statistics, and past experience all say yes.
What gives me the right? The state of CA Department of Fish and Wildlife. In addition to the right, they also gave me a license.
Babies? No. She is still an immature animal, not capable of reproduction, and we are only allowed to capture first year juveniles. When I eventually turn her loose, she will be super healthy, free of disease, a better hunter than her wild counterparts that didn't participate in falconry, and the likelihood of her surviving and reproducing is exceedingly high.
Yes. My last one died. Despite tremendous time, effort and expense as well as veterinary assistance from one of the very few board certified avian vets in the entire country, the perils of the wild caught up to her, and she could not be saved. But I sure tried. The disease she contracted while flying around free and in the wild killed her.


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## mark1

Tom said:


> Really? How many of your personal animals have died this way? How many of mine?
> 
> What are you basing this off of? I see a lot of captive animals on a daily basis. Animals have been my career and profession since the mid 80s. I don't see most animals dying this way in captivity. Surely we all know that some small percentage of people are neglectful or abusive, but to say "most"? No. That has not been my observation. Nowhere near most.




your kidding right ? i'm basing it off the people i see around me today , what i've seen sold and owned over the years , how rare some of that stuff is today in captivity , the neglect i've witnessed in my life , the folks i've seen on this board alone who don't use or have access to a vet , or can't afford it , added to the common sense estimation of the percentage of folks who will take a free to $30 dollar "pet" to a vet for a couple hundred dollar bill ..... do you realize how many folks think it's odd to take a gecko or a turtle to a vet ? or a parakeet ? or a hamster ? the vast majority ...hell my vet can tell me about "in the early days " of veterinary care for reptiles , which is i would guess the early to mid 1990's .. how many adult red eared sliders do you own right now ? you've had them right ? i've seen tubs full of podocnemis unifilis at woolworths for $4 a piece , they got to live 30-40yrs how many 20lb adults you see around ? map turtles by the thousands , what's their lifespan ? caimans , $9-$10 , they got to live 40yrs ? do you know how many kids i knew that had 1 or 2 or 4 ....... burmese pythons got to be capable of living 40yrs ? where did all these adults end up ?


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## JoesMum

Tom said:


> I can't argue with anyone's feelings. People feel how they feel. But I don't understand why anyone would be afraid of some guy typing words on the internet. What? Do you think I'm going to fly to Morocco and offer to exchange fisticuffs with you if you type something I don't like? You are my friend and so is Joe's Mum. Nothing to fear and no reason we can't have a conversation on a topic we disagree upon. Discussion is a good thing. We can learn more about the subject matter and learn more about each other's POV.


I said I was bowing out, but I need to say that my reason for doing so wasn’t fear of you Tom. You know that I haven’t been afraid to say things you may not agree with. 

I was tired last night and I did want to say my bit. I just get the feeling that conservation isn’t understood in the same way by people, including on TFO. For some their desire to own seems to exceed their desire to preserve. And they get very vocal over their rights as a human... rights I don’t think they actually have. 

I get managing deer populations and the like, but we aren’t talking about deer. We are talking about tortoises and many are endangered, most are “at risk”, in the wild. I cannot condone collecting them for the pet trade.

When I see the work my daughter and her ecologist colleagues do working to conserve the natural environment... and the work done by various zoological and ecological trusts around the world ... they are doing what’s important. 

Having these tortoises as pets does nothing to conserve the wild population and, in my opinion, adds to the stresses placed on the wild populations. 

For every “Tom” owning one of these wild caught pets there are many people who have absolutely no idea and do a lot of damage. 

Now that really is my last word if only because I have just joined my husband who is working in Spain and debate isn’t really something I’m interested in right now


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## Tom

Tidgy's Dad said:


> The deer become "overpopulated" because either they don't have enough room left to expand into, or because people have shot all their natural predators.



Agreed. Human interference caused this problem, and human intervention is now required to keep things from getting worse.



Tidgy's Dad said:


> Ecosystems will remain healthy if you just leave them alone.


In some cases this is true, in other cases things are too far gone and our continued help/interference is required to keep the eco-system from getting worse.



Tidgy's Dad said:


> If there is extinction, suffering, death and evolution, that's fine, that's what's been going on for billions of years without the need for you to intervene.



Granted, but how is this relevant to our discussion here? I don't wish to intervene in what happens out in the world, I just wish to bring a few members of some species into captivity for my own enjoyment, the enjoyment of others, and in a few cases to save a species from certain extinction.



Tidgy's Dad said:


> I know man has tipped the balance and we are now experiencing the sixth great extinction, but protected areas, conservation and education are the way forward, not keeping the animals in our houses.



I am happy to be the one to inform you that "keeping animals in our houses" has been the main source of husbandry and care advancements for animals. Zoos and government organizations typically fail miserably, and when they succeed it is because a private keeper is telling the zoo keeper how to do it right.

Protected areas usually fail, conservation efforts fail because they usually can't overcome the driving factors that caused the problem in the first place, and education is getting more and more difficult because more and more people don't want us to have captive animals with which to learn and teach with. I can tell you from a career of doing animal education for decades, I even hold a college degree in "Wildlife Education", that people learn more, demonstrate more passion, and are more motivated into positive action when they see a living breathing animal in front of them vs. a picture or some film footage on TV.



Tidgy's Dad said:


> Rescues, like my torts, are one thing, captive bred, okay, but taking animals from the wild to fulfill our own selfish needs is wrong.



I've never understood the disconnect between a CB animal and a WC animal. I realize that people disagree with this, but buying a CB animal is giving a direct financial reward to the people responsible for removing the parents of the CB animal from the wild. CB animals certainly make better pets any way you measure it, but the owner of a CB animal is still directly responsible for the removal of animals from the wild. Can't have CB animals if you don't have a good size pool of WC foundation animals to start with.

Selfish to take animals for my own needs? Okay. I won't argue that. Its selfish in the same way I enjoy my dog, my car, or a good meal. Or desert. Taken further, what do we do in life that isn't selfish in some way? Doesn't everyone do everything because that is how that want to do it and it please them? My animals please me. I enjoy caring for them and watching them do their thing. It is a very selfish thing indeed.

Wrong? No. No its not. Not wrong in anyway. On that point we will not agree. When I look out at my animals enjoying the lives that I've provided for them, man, everything about that is _right. _When I think about what I've learned while caring for my captive animals and what I've been able to share with others to improve the lives of animals all over the world, no, there is not one thing _wrong_ with that.


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## Tidgy's Dad

Tom said:


> I can't argue with anyone's feelings. People feel how they feel. But I don't understand why anyone would be afraid of some guy typing words on the internet. What? Do you think I'm going to fly to Morocco and offer to exchange fisticuffs with you if you type something I don't like? You are my friend and so is Joe's Mum. Nothing to fear and no reason we can't have a conversation on a topic we disagree upon. Discussion is a good thing. We can learn more about the subject matter and learn more about each other's POV.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it our responsibility to save all wild animals from harm? Of course not. Is it our prerogative to save some of them? Sure. Why not?
> 
> The hospital reference is in relation to how most humans will die, in comparison to how most wild animals will die.
> 
> 
> 
> Hero? Hmm… This paragraph made me stop and think. In answer to your question: In some cases, yes, the people taking animals from the wild _are_ heroes. Some examples: The peregrin falcon, California condor, Burmese star tortoise, Giant panda, and the sulcata tortoise in many parts of its range. All of these would be extinct if it weren't for the efforts of people who took them from the wild and undertook the difficult process of captive breeding and reintroduction. Is someone a hero for saving one wildebeest from the jaws of a croc. No. I don't think so, but if that wildebeest had human powers of logic and reason, I bet he would. So yes, sometimes taking animals from the wild is a heroic thing to do. I wish that humans hadn't created these dire situations that require rescue in the first place, but that is a whole 'nother discussion.
> 
> Who decides the numbers that are "sustainable"? Entire teams and departments of trained wildlife biologists who spend their lives observing what takes place out in the wild, collecting and evaluating population data, and adjusting policy annually to keep the wild populations at optimal health and density. Me and my mates have absolutely no say in the matter.
> 
> Next question: What gives me the right to decide? I've pondered this one many times. I answer it with some questions: What gives the lion the right to prey upon the zebra? What gives the tortoise the right to decimate a sprouting weed patch? What gives you the right to eat whatever you ate last night for dinner? I don't see this as a question of "rights". I see it more of a question of "right or wrong". Some people seem to have this aversion to collecting or taking any animals from the wild as if it is all bad all the time and they want nothing to do with it, and the practice and the people who engage in the practice are to be insulted and vilified as if they are evil and don't care about the ecosystem or the world. I don't see it this way. Can people go too far and do too much? Absolutely! They have and they do. I think _those_ people deserve this vilification, but not _everyone_ who takes animals from the wild is a villain, nor are they _always_ doing harm to the environment or the species. If we didn't take some animals from the wild, some populations would eventually be decimated and entire eco-systems would crash. This has been scientifically demonstrated many times. African elephant policies in neighboring countries is a highly visible demonstration of this. Deer population here in CA is another.
> 
> Finally, when discussing genetic diversity, we are talking about populations of millions of animals here. Removing a few animals for food, or for the pet trade, will have zero effect on the genetic diversity of wild populations and does no harm. Removing millions of a given species while simultaneously destroying their natural habitat can and does have a devastating effect as we all know. The former practice is fine with my conscience, the latter should be condemned and halted at every possible turn.
> 
> 
> Odd? I think it serves as a perfect example. Let's apply your questions to it:
> 
> Am I a hero for saving this hawk? I think so. Whether you or anyone else thinks so is up to them.
> Would this bird have died if left in the wild? Medical science, statistics, and past experience all say yes.
> What gives me the right? The state of CA Department of Fish and Wildlife. In addition to the right, they also gave me a license.
> Babies? No. She is still an immature animal, not capable of reproduction, and we are only allowed to capture first year juveniles. When I eventually turn her loose, she will be super healthy, free of disease, a better hunter than her wild counterparts that didn't participate in falconry, and the likelihood of her surviving and reproducing is exceedingly high.
> Yes. My last one died. Despite tremendous time, effort and expense as well as veterinary assistance from one of the very few board certified avian vets in the entire country, the perils of the wild caught up to her, and she could not be saved. But I sure tried. The disease she contracted while flying around free and in the wild killed her.


It's not a case of fearing you will come to Morocco and biff me on the nose, I'm not bothered, even if that were likely, I get plenty of biffings from wifey. But there is something strangely terrifying about communicating with certain people without eye contact or facial expression and they can come over as aggressive, manipulative or dishonest. (not saying you are all these things) That's part of the reason for the horrid 'emoticons' or 'emojis' or whatever they're called, I hate them but have learned that to use them with some people, on some occasions can be useful for conveying a tone, even though this can be false, too.  You would be more than welcome to come to Morocco anytime and visit, but not for fisticuffs, for mint tea and animated discussion.
And a look at some camels. 
I was not talking about not saving animals, I was talking about taking them from the wild needlessly, on a whim, or for entertainment. Yes, many birds, tortoises etc, would die in the wild if we don't rescue them, but should we do it? I don't think so, unless they are critically endangered etc. Mostly it is better if we leave them alone and concentrate on protecting their environment IMHO. 
We cannot and should not think we are doing an animal a favour because we are taking it out of it's natural habitat and placing it in another even though it will probably live a much longer and easier life. 
The giant panda is a "conservation reliant vulnerable species" , the California Condor was and is still critically endangered, so is the Burmese star. Sulcatas should be left where they are and their habitats protected and the peregrine falcon is not an endangered animal, you can't use that as an example, they'll only become endangered if people take them out of the wild for "their own good."
The right to decide. Lions and tortoises don't 'decide' to eat what they do, they just do it. We are different we can take actions not based entirely out of instinct or basic thought processes. Yes, it's a question of what's right and wrong, a matter of ethics and principal. It's here that we disagree. People have different ideas of what's wrong and what's right.
Genetic diversity : Clearly not all populations of animals are numbered in the millions. Removing some for the pet trade can be devastating. Here, for example the _Testudo graeca soussensis _is still being taken so people can have nice pets. There will soon, quite likely, be none left in the wild. The same can be said for your example of the Burmese star, though some of those are sold for 'medicine' too. Why should you want to take a macaw from the wild just so it looks pretty in your living room? Yes, captive bred have come from ancestors at some time taken from the wild, but often generations ago and it is no longer necessary for the breeders and sellers to take more from the original source. 
Personally, I would never buy a pet of any description, but that's just me, I'm not condemning the purchase of pets wholesale. But I eat meat and love veal, so i guess i'm a hypocrite 
And I'm genuinely very sorry about your bird. 
.


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## Alaskamike

Honestly I luv discussions like this. Guess I’m a natural contrarian-so I like to put in my 2cents, curious of people’s ideas & logic. 

This heated topic rages throughout the pet trade , with naturalists, conservationists, keepers & even vegetarians getting in on it (though usually over raising animals for food). I was once vehemently (verbally) assaulted for hunting and shooting a caribou in Alaska. And at a block party barbecue no less (& yes, I pointed out the irony ). And yes , my family with 4 teens ate caribou all winter. 

It often degenerates into absolutes. Words like ‘all, every, & absolutely’ make discussion difficult. Even stating ‘ most’ is often subjective to ones experience. 

That does not make it a fruitless debate. Just one where measured thinking helps. 

It is true that many animals, including tortoises, suffer in the hands of dealers & ignorant or uncaring keepers. It is also true that many have long & healthy lives , and are sometimes saved from extinction through the breeding and husbandry efforts of hobbiests. Also through regulated breeding programs - kept on compounds like the Aldabras , have been restored. Some are experiencing such destruction of habitats and illegal collection , like some Star tortoises, that intervention has become necessary to prevent extinction. 

It is not an all or nothing proposition. And each species has its own issues. 

Humans intervene. We interact with the natural world in which we live. The purists will say if you find an injured tortoise leave it be. It will either die or recover but there is no good reason to remove it and care for it. It disrupts nature. 

Others ( like me ) would say no. If it is legal to do so , I will take it home. Tend it’s wounds and help it recover. I might even go so far as seek vet attention. Then I will send it back to the woods. As a boy I saved 2 baby raccoons this way. Both had mothers hit on the hiway. I’d do it again. 

I keep tortoises as pets. I also have 2 dogs & 2 cats. They all have good lives. Never have I thought of it as keeping them in jail. Nor can I feel any guilt over not perfectly mirroring the “ wild” state of their kind. Often my husbandry improves on that. 

Maybe that was 4 cents?


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## AmberD

I think the question is a difficult one to answer. The ops statement is animals 'meant' to live in the wild and 'make' them live in cages.

Many animals are born in captivity-they have never seen the wild and know no difference, and would likely not survive if set free as I doubt their immune systems/tolerance would be that of a wild animal.

I have horses for example. They were once wild and now domesticated. I ride my horse and he jumps over obstacles for me. Is it cruel? Am i whipping him over the jumps? No. Infact he perks his ears and tries to go faster towards the jumps. He enjoys it. This plays into what others have said about the needs of animals and if they can be met. By riding, I am meeting his need for exercise. He also runs around his paddock, or stands and eats grass. He doesn't have to worry about getting attacked by predators at night because he is in a barn.

I feel the same for my tortoise. The breeder told me the father was wild caught. Mother was captive bred. As long as we can meet the needs and properly care and provide for any animal I do not think it is cruel.

I do feel it is sad that many people do not understand the proper care or have the proper resources for said animals and yet keep them anyways. That's why this site is a great place to come. If I had not found this site, my baby redfoot would likely be living in an open top table with coil bulbs and little humidity being fed lettuce. Would I have thought I was being cruel-no because that was the information I was given at the time of purchase. I thought it was the proper care. Now I know different and thankfully found this site as I brought my little one home. It is a very touchy subject and as long as the caretaker (us) is eager to learn and take care of our animals I do not think it is cruel.

Cruelty would be KNOWING the proper care and not providing. Or not providing proper care because they can no longer keep or want the animal.


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## Benjtort

I think I’d ot is domesticated then it is ok as long as it has proper living conditions


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