# Ammonium urate crystal



## E*G+B (Jun 4, 2016)

hi,
Sorry wasn't sure where to post this.
I was wondering if anyone can help me.
I took Bruno to the vets when I noticed his tail was swollen, he also hadn't had a poo for a little while but that wasn't a worry because he doesn't go everyday normally.
The vet pulled out a stone, he wasn't sure what it was as he had asked everything I fed Bruno temps of enclosure baths water etc. he sent it off for testing and it came back to be an ammonium urate crystal. The vet doesn't know what this is or how he got it. Bruno had an X-ray and there isn't any more, however he seems a lot more quiet sleeping a lot more when he's usually marching round. I'm worried that there is still something wrong. 
Any help would be great.
Thanks


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Jun 4, 2016)

Hello & welcome. I'm still a beginner so I wont be able to answer any questions. Usually urates that are gritty or hard is an indicator or dehydration though. 
Please let us know what kind of tortoise Bruno is, age (if you know this), details on his enclosure, lighting/heating, substrate, his diet, your soaking schedule with him and any other info that would be useful to help more experienced members answer your questions. 
Also, Pictures are always helpful.


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## JoesMum (Jun 4, 2016)

Linhdan Nguyen said:


> Hello & welcome. I'm still a beginner so I wont be able to answer any questions. Usually urates that are gritty or hard is an indicator or dehydration though.
> Please let us know what kind of tortoise Bruno is, age (if you know this), details on his enclosure, lighting/heating, substrate, his diet, your soaking schedule with him and any other info that would be useful to help more experienced members answer your questions.
> Also, Pictures are always helpful.


Hello. 

Lindhan has it exactly right. We can help you with that information. 

It is also helpful to know where you are in the world and what the climate is like. 

Pictures save a thousand words.


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## E*G+B (Jun 4, 2016)

Hi, thank you for your reply.
Bruno is a hermanns and is one and a half.
There wasn't any signs of this as his urates were normal.
He has a tortoise table with his uvb light ,heat lamp and I have a floor lamp for extra light.
His substrate was tortoise life Mediterranean and then aspen in his bed. (Is on news paper at the moment as vet suggested until we knew it was nothing to do with that, so will be changing back again now)
He's fed mainly on and mix of 60 different weeds that I brought from shelled warriors that you grow yourself that are safe for him to eat but don't have the list at the moment. Also some carrot sometimes and he loves cucumber he also has dandelion as well. At the moment the vet suggested mango spinach things like that just to make sure he goes to the toilet. He has calcium powder about 5 times a week and multi vitamin once a week.
He was bathed twice a week it was normally more but he would just try to get out, but that wasn't a worry as he has his water bowl in his enclosure 24/7 which I know he drinks from and likes to go in as I see him drink and you know he's been in as he's covered in soil when he comes out. But has had a bath 3 times a day at the moment as we didn't know what was wrong.
Temps when I last checked under his lamp was 32oc.
He just seems to be sleeping all the time unless you put your hand in and he sprints over to see if you have anything and he's fine eating and seems to liven up.
Hope this helps if there is anything else you need to know to help me find out what this is let me know.
Thanks


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## E*G+B (Jun 4, 2016)

I'm in Brighton East Sussex.
weather at the moment has been ok. Not nice enough for him to go in garden but it's not too cold


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Jun 4, 2016)

I would say hold off on the mango and spinach until someone gives you the okay. I do not believe Hermann's can eat much fruit, I think they are leafy weed/veggie eaters like russians. Also, spinach is okay once in awhile due to the high oxalates. 
This was copied from thetortoisetable.org.uk (a great site for identifying safe foods for tortoises):
"Spinach contains a high level of calcium, but it also contains oxalic acid which binds with calcium in the diet and prevents the tortoise from absorbing and using it. In addition, it possesses a high level of calcium oxalate crystals which contribute to the formation of kidney stones. Some of the calcium oxalate is in the form of needle-shaped crystals called raphides, and when consumed in large amounts these can irritate the skin and mucous membranes in the mouth and throat."


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## E*G+B (Jun 4, 2016)

Hi, thanks for your reply.
The vets said this would be ok as the crystal (more like rock. It was about the size of brunos leg) made him constipated so they said this food would help with him going to the toilet. I wouldn't normally feed him this and the vet said yesterday it was ok for me to start adding his normal food back in. Just worried as there wasn't any sign he had this in him and there must have been a reason it formed or can this just happen without anything being wrong?
Thanks


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## Gillian M (Jun 4, 2016)

A very warm welcome to the forum!

Please post pictures of your tort as well as his enclosure asap.

Hoping to hear your tort is better soon.


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## E*G+B (Jun 4, 2016)

Hi. This is what it is mainly like it has changed a bit but I'm not un right now so can't get another pic yet. Although ar this time he doesn't have the soil he has newspaper. It is normally more light but in this picture I don't have the floor lamp on or blind up


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Jun 4, 2016)

If you have not yet, please read our Hermann's tortoise care sheet. It is created by an experienced member that has up to date information and works closely with this species:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sticky-hermanns-tortoise-care-sheet-updated.101410/
Also, what is the humidity level of your baby tortoises enclosure? Humidity is very important in preventing pyramiding. Usually, open top enclosures are not recommended for babies since it does not hold humidity (or heat) very well. 
That's a nice enclosure though.Your tortoise must love walking up and down the ramp! What's that white stuff in the soil?

Some vets do no have up-to-date husbandry information. Newspaper is very drying for a baby, and adult. My vet had also recommended newspaper bedding and a few other things that were not ideal. I sprayed the newspaper often but it would never last under the lamp. The information we have on the forum has been tried by tortoise owners and been decided as the most beneficial to our tortoises.


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## JoesMum (Jun 4, 2016)

Hi. I am in West Kent... not far from you  ... so I understand your climate perfectly. Hopefully the sun comes out tomorrow! Fingers crossed 


I am going to start you with some care guides that you must read

Beginner mistakes
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

Hermann's Care Guide
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sticky-hermanns-tortoise-care-sheet-updated.101410/

Care of Baby Russians (Applies to hermann's too)
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...or-other-herbivorous-tortoise-species.107734/

The problem you have is likely to have been caused by dehydration and your enclosure looks very dry. Please read the above and take particular note of the requirements for humidity and soaking.

Your enclosure is small and your tort will rapidly outgrow it, so in adapting things please keep in mind that you are going to have to bigger. the recommended size is 8'x4' (approx 1.5 x 2.2 mteres)

I am concerned that you have a compact UVB (looks like a low energy light bulb). These cause problems with tortoise eyes and should not be used. You can use Tue UVB or a Mercury Vapor Bulb (MVB) safely.

Diet should be leafy greens, preferably weeds. Your tort cannot digest sugars properly - they cause kidney and digestive problems - so fruit, tomato, carrot and peppers should only be fed very sparingly and very occasionally. Put food on a piece of flat slate or rock, rather than a bowl, as this helps to abrade the beak and stop it overgrowing.

Like humans, no amount of fibre can be effective in the diet without plenty of water too. Your water bowl should be a terracotta plant saucer which your tort can wade through. reptile bowls sold in pet shops are a tipping hazard and not suitable for tortoises.

You need to improve your tort's hydration, by soaking him daily in warm water for a good 30 minutes. Use a high-sided bowl that he can't see through. I find it best to do it first thing in the morning before my tort has warmed up properly.

Don't hesitate to come back with any questions


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## Yvonne G (Jun 4, 2016)

Hi and welcome to the Forum!

Sometimes bladder stones are caused by diet, but the most common cause is dehydration. Put him into the soaking bowl for at least 15 minutes a day. Don't worry that he doesn't like it, it's for his own good.

This is an interesting article helping you to understand bladder stones, however, it doesn't tell you how to keep your tortoise from getting them:

http://www.cabi.org/isc/FullTextPDF/2009/20093019001.pdf

This is what Dr. Greek has to say about bladder stones:

Reptile owners frequently wonder about the "white powder" that is excreted by their pets. The material is uric acid and its salts (urates). Be assured that it is normal for tortoises to pass it.

Uric acid is the end product of protein metabolism. It is cleared from the blood by the kidney into the bladder. Uric acid and urates are relatively insoluble and crystallize into small chunks that are passed with the urine. The amount of urate present in urine varies depending on diet and water intake. Urates are usually white to light yellow in color.

On rare occasions, abnormalities may develop where urate crystals deposit in soft tissues forming the disease known as gout. Another disease is cystic calculi or "bladder stones". These calculi are made up of uric acid salts similar to those that are normally excreted in the urine. In this case the urates build up to form a large solid mass in the bladder. Desert tortoises appear to have a high incidence of calculi. *While the exact cause is not known, improper nutrition and limited access to water have both been implicated.

Remember to provide water for them regularly.*

*Thomas J. Greek, MS, DVM
Greek & Associates Veterinary Hospital, Yorba Linda, CA*


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## E*G+B (Jun 4, 2016)

Hi thankyou all foe replies. I'm sure its not dehydration as he always has water and does have baths. Its not made from calcium because the results didn't say that. I'm worried because my vet is a reptile expert and I took Bruno to another as well and they don't know how he got this because they know its not from dehydration or diet.so I just need to know what this is because its not just a build up from urates. His urates are or normal and always have been. Not sure of humidity as I'm not in right now but last time I checked it was all good. Can these just happen? I made sure I did all research and looked at all care sheets before I got him. Because I wanted to make sure I didn't do anything wrong and I'm pretty sure I haven't. I trust my vets but its worrying when they don't know. I also found that bathing him in a see through bowl is better as he like to look out because he ls really nosey. When he's in one he cant see out of he just tries to get out where as clear he sits sand looks out. I'm pretty sure his enclosure is fine at the moment he have lots of room. I know its not dehydration and pretty sure its not diet as the things I grow are from a trusted place. Is there anything else it can be as I don't want anything to happen or another to come back. I know normal kidney stones are from dehydration but thus is made from the calcium or normal ones I cant find anything on ammonium urate crystal. I knkw news paper isnt the best either but as well where they took the stone out it is sore and i dont wqnt him getting soil in it so will be putting it back as soon as hes heeled.Thanks for your help and I will read the care sheets on here but I did do a lot of research (not saying I know everything because I don't) but made sure I knew what I needed to to get him. Thanks again and if anyone else has had a ammonium urate crystal in their tortoise it would be great to hear about it and if they are ok now. Thanks


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Jun 4, 2016)

My vet was also a reptile specialist and i spent around $1,000 on my sick tortoise just to find out, myself, it was just a large parasites load he had (Yvonne had also suggested it was so.) 
Just saying, the vet may be a reptile specialist but that doesn't mean they have tortoise care knowledge. 
I hope this is a one time thing for Bruno & hope he feels better soon.


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## JoesMum (Jun 4, 2016)

Ammonia and urate are products of the urinary system. 

If it crystallises it's a strong sign of hydration problems. 

Buying weeds from Shelled Warriors isn't some sort of magic diet wand. They're the type of plant that's suitable to feed, but have you checked to see if they can be fed freely or whether they should be fed in moderation? 

Look everything you feed up on The Tortoise Table Plant Database. It tells you the suitability and why. 
http://thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plant_database_14.asp

Calcium supplement can be overdone. A small pinch 3 times a week is plenty. 

There is a lot of outdated information around on the Internet. This is perpetuated by many pet shops and, sadly, some breeders and vets too. The TFO guides are written by species experts working hard to get the right information out there.


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## E*G+B (Jun 4, 2016)

Hi thanks for your reply. He does have tortoises as well which is why I trust him more so he does know what he's talking about as he has had them for years. I just don't know what else it could be as I know its not just a build up of urates as it would have came back on the test. Did your have symptoms of the parasites was there anything noticeable. Do you think that's what Bruno could have ? Thanks


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## E*G+B (Jun 4, 2016)

Hi. Yeah I have checked on the list when I brought them if they should be fed sparingly or all the time. So pretty sure it isn't that. Have you found information about ammonium urate crystal if so what website as I would love to read it. I never feed him anything I'm not sure about as would never risk anything to harm him. Thanks


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Jun 4, 2016)

E*G+B said:


> Hi thanks for your reply. He does have tortoises as well which is why I trust him more so he does know what he's talking about as he has had them for years. I just don't know what else it could be as I know its not just a build up of urates as it would have came back on the test. Did your have symptoms of the parasites was there anything noticeable. Do you think that's what Bruno could have ? Thanks


No i dont think Bruno has parasites. My tortoise, Max, didn't eat, didn't move. he sleeps all the time. Wasn't active at all. Plus he's believed to be wild caught. I'm sure little Bruno was captive bred, so no worries.


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## E*G+B (Jun 4, 2016)

Hi thanks. Yes he was I went to get him and pick him out from all the little ones saw his parents and all was good. He was one month old when I got him and have never had any problems its just bad that this one has come up and I cant find information on it. Thanks


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Jun 4, 2016)

I'm not sure where you purchased him from but maybe he was started off dry, and now that he's getting daily soaks, maybe he's letting it all out. That's all I can really think of.


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## E*G+B (Jun 4, 2016)

Yeah she didn't say how often she bathed him and there wasn't water in his enclosure but she had tortoises for years but that is possible I guess. However I don't have any way of finding out. I will just have to hope he gets back to his normal nosey lively self. And he will be going back to vets if anything else comes up or if I think he isn't getting better. Thanks for your help


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Jun 4, 2016)

Ehh, having tortoises for years in my opinion doesnt mean much. We've seen many members that adopt tortoises from others and the tortoise is in bad condition from being raised poorly for many years. Either they had one tortoise or many. But I'm glad to have been able to help some. Let us know how Bruno does  Maybe hes just sore so he just wants to rest for awhile.


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## E*G+B (Jun 4, 2016)

Yeah he has been having some medicine this week to help him go to the toilet as the stone blocked him up. Maybe this medicine makes him tired. But hopefully he will be better soon. Thanks for your help. I know where to come if anything else happens but hopefully won't need to as fingers crossed he will get better and nothing else will come up


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Jun 4, 2016)

Yup ! medicine does have some effect on tortoises. But your next post will be pictures of him running around and eating like no tomorrow !


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## JoesMum (Jun 4, 2016)

Actually this thread has just made me think of @CathyNed. I wonder if she's around?


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## E*G+B (Jun 4, 2016)

Would she know anything about this?
Or be able to help


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## JoesMum (Jun 4, 2016)

Read this
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/vet-visit-questions.140934/#post-1329603


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## E*G+B (Jun 4, 2016)

Hi,
I've just read it thanks for sending it. 
I don't think it is the same thing as Bruno doesn't have any bumps or swollen skin and things like that.
His urates were all normal before the rock came out and are after it came out.
I was maybe going to buy a water test kit do you think that would be possible that it has a high ammonium level? That could be only only thing I can think of 
Thanks


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## JoesMum (Jun 4, 2016)

E*G+B said:


> Hi,
> I've just read it thanks for sending it.
> I don't think it is the same thing as Bruno doesn't have any bumps or swollen skin and things like that.
> His urates were all normal before the rock came out and are after it came out.
> ...


I think it's very unlikely that your water supply in Sussex is to blame. Southern water would be in dead trouble if there was excessive ammonia.


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## CathyNed (Jun 4, 2016)

Hi guys. 
Ive just been reading the post here and sounds similar to my case. Neds xray showed no sign of kidney stones at the vet but 11 days later he passed 4 stones in his pee (largest was 1cm by 1cm by 1cm). I was afraid they were kidney stones so i called the vet again. She said they could not be kidney stones as they didnt show on xray and could not have formed in the 11 days since xray.

Ned had been dehydrated when i brought him to the vet and she feels that these stones were uric acid deposit build up that was in his system and because he was now being bathed regularly (2-3 times a day) and had been hydrated with saline by the vet that he was able to pass them.

You are soaking your hermans tort E*G+B and giving him access to water but how long have you had him? Is there a chance he didnt have access to water or was dehydrated before you got him and is only able to get rid of these uric acid stones now that he is being better hydrated like mine did?


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## CathyNed (Jun 4, 2016)

E*G+B said:


> Hi,
> I've just read it thanks for sending it.
> I don't think it is the same thing as Bruno doesn't have any bumps or swollen skin and things like that.
> His urates were all normal before the rock came out and are after it came out.
> ...



Hi again. The swelling in my torts case was a result of a kidney infection and lack of protein. They were the symptoms which sent me looking for a vet but.... I was not aware at all that he was dehydrated as he has always had access to water and urates had been normal.
The stones my tort passed were directly related to his dehydration . Its connected to the idea that torts dont pee unless they have access to more water to replace it. He was holding onto these stones or was noy able to flush them from his system. He only expelled them when his hydration level improved and was being soaked numerous times dailly.


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## E*G+B (Jun 4, 2016)

Hi, thanks for your reply.
I've had him since he was one month old and he's now one and a half years old. Would that effect him now if he didn't have water back then? He wees quite a bit in or out of water.
He's only ever had the one stone that was very large for his size.
He always has water and I see him drink whenever he has a bath or in his water bowl in his enclosure. 
The test result came back as it being ammonium so would it have came back as Uric acid if it was to do with that?
He seems a bit more awake the last hour going round looking at the news paper (which will be changed as soon as the soreness goes down) maybe because yesterday was his last medicine day.
Thanks


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## E*G+B (Jun 5, 2016)

Hi.
Thank you for all your replies.
Just to let you know Bruno seems a lot more himself. He was up before me this morning and hasn't stopped all day so he's definitely getting back to himself. Think the medicine maybe had an effect on him and made him tired.
So it seems to be going well, just worrying I can't find out exactly what it was but maybe now he's seem better I can have a decent night sleep and might not have as much worry.
Thanks for your help


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