# Source of protein for sulcatas in the wild



## franz_see (Jan 6, 2015)

Good day,

I've heard (from a different forum) that protein can cause sulcatas to grow faster. And with that, adding mazzuri to their diet can provide them this needed protein (among other nutrients).

But I'm just curious, in the wild though, what would their main source of protein be? Where do they normally get it?

Thanks,
Franz


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## ZEROPILOT (Jan 6, 2015)

Insects, etc. Sulcatas don't require much protein. Very little actually.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 6, 2015)

Hi Franz:

You're forgetting that plants contain protein too.

Members have shared with us that their tortoise eats dog poop. I imagine in the wild if a tortoise happens upon a carcass he might eat some of it. I've seen my desert tortoises chasing lizards (unsuccessfully), and I have some leopard hatchlings that have eaten worms from their substrate.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jan 6, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> Hi Franz:
> 
> You're forgetting that plants contain protein too.
> 
> Members have shared with us that their tortoise eats dog poop. I imagine in the wild if a tortoise happens upon a carcass he might eat some of it. I've seen my desert tortoises chasing lizards (unsuccessfully), and I have some leopard hatchlings that have eaten worms from their substrate.


That's still pretty tame by Red Foot standards.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 6, 2015)

Oh, sorry...I thought the OP had asked about sulcatas in the wild.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jan 6, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> Oh, sorry...I thought the OP had asked about sulcatas in the wild.


He did. Or are you being sarcastic?


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## franz_see (Jan 6, 2015)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Insects, etc. Sulcatas don't require much protein. Very little actually.





Yvonne G said:


> Hi Franz:
> 
> You're forgetting that plants contain protein too.
> 
> Members have shared with us that their tortoise eats dog poop. I imagine in the wild if a tortoise happens upon a carcass he might eat some of it. I've seen my desert tortoises chasing lizards (unsuccessfully), and I have some leopard hatchlings that have eaten worms from their substrate.



Thanks @ZEROPILOT and @Yvonne G. 

Right. Plants have proteins too. But if so, then which plants actually provide the most (or right amount of) protein for sulcatas. And if plants are more than necessary, then why does it seem like the best source of protein for sulcatas is mazurri? 

Also, correct me if I'm wrong - insects, carcass, and feces are not normally part of their diet right? They might eat it accidentally, or out of curiosity, but they won't actively seek it out constantly, right? 

Now, this is just a general wondering for me trying to understand these wonderful animals - but if protein allows sulcatas to grow faster, then that would mean they would be less likely to avoid other predatory animals. If let's say for example that an individual sulcata has gained a taste for insects and actively seeks them out to eat them, then that would mean this specific sulcata should be growing faster than normal, and is more likely to survive and pass on that trait to the next generation (assuming you subscribe to the evolution theory). But since majority of sulcatas do not actually hunt insects, im guessing they have a better source of protein that they're getting it from. Either that or protein intake is not as important as other factors. 

Thoughts?


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## Yvonne G (Jan 6, 2015)

Me???Sarcastic???


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## ZEROPILOT (Jan 6, 2015)

Red footeds WILL seek out the nastiest stuff on earth. Hence my comment. I do also think that Sulcatas would do the same, just not sure. It's not that Mazuri is the BEST source for protein, but it has more per volume. I think that Mazuri is not well suited for a Sulcata. Maybe the newer Mazuri LS would be better?


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## franz_see (Jan 6, 2015)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Red footeds WILL seek out the nastiest stuff on earth. Hence my comment. I do also think that Sulcatas would do the same, just not sure. It's not that Mazuri is the BEST source for protein, but it has more per volume.



Aren't sulcatas herbivores unlike redfoots which are omnivores?  This is why I'm singling out sulcatas in my question (that, plus, that's the only thing I know  hehe ).


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## Tom (Jan 6, 2015)

Very little is known or written about sulcatas in the wild. There is an out-of-print book called "The Crying Tortoise" that is the best resource for wild sulcata info that I have found.

I am told that animals on the verge of death will retreat into sulcata burrows to escape the scorching heat there in Africa and some of these animals die in the sulcata's burrow. The sulcatas will frequently eat these dead animals.

While I have seen or heard no reference for sulcatas, field researchers have noted that mammal feces does make up a fairly large portion of the diet for young leopard tortoises. I see no reason why it wouldn't be this way for sulcatas, even though they have not been studied as much as the leopards.

I have seen nothing in captivity or the wild to make me think they have any interest at all in eating insects. I have even offered them roaches, crickets, earth worms and meal worms a few times just to see what would happen, and none of my tortoises ever showed any interest. I once offered a dead rat that one of my snakes chose not to eat, and they all walked right by that too. No interest beyond a sniff to see what it was.

On the other hand, my friend Dave up in Ojai claims to have a sulcata that hunts gophers. He said the tortoise will sit and wait for the gopher to stick its head up and then it will snatch it and eat it.

I have also seen footage of a wild Galapagos that had its own novel hunting strategy. It would go down to the water's edge and stand tall making some shade under it. Little birds (finches, if I recall correctly) would come down to get a drink and take advantage of the big shady spot under the still tortoise. The tortoise would then suddenly plop down and smoosh the little birdies and then take a step back and eat them.

Even with all of this, there is no reason to feed our captive tortoises insects or meat. Excepting the species that need this, of course. All of their dietary needs are best met with a wide variety of plant life. Also, Mazuri is a good food. I like to feed mine some once or twice a week. I feed it more as a nutritional supplement. I don' feed it to give them protein or make them grow faster.

There is a lot that we don't know about our tortoises, and this is certainly one of those things. What I have seen is that sulcatas are highly adaptable and will thrive in a wide variety of environments and on a wide variety of feeding strategies.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jan 6, 2015)

Yes, but not to the extent of Red Footeds. They require a lot more protein. I've had them eat rats before. (Long story) It isn't good for a Sulcata to eat a lot of protein or to grow too quickly. They have different needs. My Red Foot comment only complicated this post. Sorry.


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## franz_see (Jan 6, 2015)

Tom said:


> Very little is known or written about sulcatas in the wild. There is an out-of-print book called "The Crying Tortoise" that is the best resource for wild sulcata info that I have found.
> 
> I am told that animals on the verge of death will retreat into sulcata burrows to escape the scorching heat there in Africa and some of these animals die in the sulcata's burrow. The sulcatas will frequently eat these dead animals.
> 
> ...



As always, very useful information @Tom  

I've seen one of my hatchlings eat a small dead centipede before (by the time I figured out what he was "grazing" on, he has already swallowed it), and munching on some chicken bones that somehow stumbled upon our yard. Those two, plus the occasional crushed snail shells they see in the yard. But that's about it. I've seen my hatchlings ignore every worm, centipede, or any other bite size insect that comes their way


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## Tom (Jan 6, 2015)

ZEROPILOT said:


> I think that Mazuri is not well suited for a Sulcata.



Why do you think this? My experience with a whole lotta sulcatas has shown me otherwise. I actually started using Mazuri years ago on the advise of some of the top sulcata breeders in the country.

Mine don't like the LS, although I can fool them into eating by mixing it with other foods. And I don't like the LS version for babies because the pieces are too large and won't turn to mush wen soaked, like the regular Mazuri does.

Some protein is not only good for them, but its necessary. The biggest sulcata breeder on the planet (that I know of) uses alfalfa as the main diet for his giant herds of giants. I grow my own alfalfa and periodically feed it to all of my tortoises. I bring this up because alfalfa has a higher protein content than Mazuri.


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## franz_see (Jan 6, 2015)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yes, but not to the extent of Red Footeds. They require a lot more protein. I've had them eat rats before. (Long story) It isn't good for a Sulcata to eat a lot of protein or to grow too quickly. They have different needs. My Red Foot comment only complicated this post. Sorry.



@ZEROPILOT, @Tom : Sorry. I guess I caused some confusion as well. My reference to mazuri and growth is just to highlight what protein does for sulcatas. Not that I'm advocating to feed sulcatas more protein. More like, seems like protein seems like an important part of their diet, and so far, I don't know what would be their main source of protein in the wild (in captivity, from what I can tell, seems like the main source of protein is mazuri. hehe)


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## Tom (Jan 6, 2015)

franz_see said:


> As always, very useful information @Tom
> 
> I've seen one of my hatchlings eat a small dead centipede before (by the time I figured out what he was "grazing" on, he has already swallowed it), and munching on some chicken bones that somehow stumbled upon our yard. Those two, plus the occasional crushed snail shells they see in the yard. But that's about it. I've seen my hatchlings ignore every worm, centipede, or any other bite size insect that comes their way



Hmmm... Maybe they only eat dead stuff, and not living bugs?

The late great Bert Langerwurf (I man who I liked and respected tremendously) used to toss turkey and chicken bones to his adult sulcatas and reported that they snapped them up with great vigor. While I don't advocate the practice, it didn't seem to harm his tortoises.

So much we don't know...


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## franz_see (Jan 6, 2015)

Tom said:


> Hmmm... Maybe they only eat dead stuff, and not living bugs"?
> 
> The late great Bert Langerwurf (I man who I liked and respected tremendously) used to toss turkey and chicken bones to his adult sulcatas and reported that they snapped them up with great vigor. While I don't advocate the practice, it didn't seem to harm his tortoises.
> 
> So much we don't know...



hmm... interesting. Actually, I can probably easily verify that with my tortoises by offering them dead centipedes. I'm just not sure if it's "safe". Thoughts?


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## Tom (Jan 6, 2015)

franz_see said:


> hmm... interesting. Actually, I can probably easily verify that with my tortoises by offering them dead centipedes. I'm just not sure if it's "safe". Thoughts?



Uncharted territory. I would not do it on purpose.


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## franz_see (Jan 6, 2015)

Tom said:


> Uncharted territory. I would not do it on purpose.



Understood  thanks!


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## franz_see (Jan 6, 2015)

Tom said:


> Why do you think this? My experience with a whole lotta sulcatas has shown me otherwise. I actually started using Mazuri years ago on the advise of some of the top sulcata breeders in the country.
> 
> Mine don't like the LS, although I can fool them into eating by mixing it with other foods. And I don't like the LS version for babies because the pieces are too large and won't turn to mush wen soaked, like the regular Mazuri does.
> 
> Some protein is not only good for them, but its necessary. The biggest sulcata breeder on the planet (that I know of) uses alfalfa as the main diet for his giant herds of giants. I grow my own alfalfa and periodically feed it to all of my tortoises. I bring this up because alfalfa has a higher protein content than Mazuri.



Btw, just curious. Can alfalfa be fed regularly or sparingly only? Thanks!


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## leopard777 (Jan 6, 2015)

i remember reading a article that a certain fruit is part of their diet in the wild,forgot what the name is .


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## franz_see (Jan 6, 2015)

leopard777 said:


> i remember reading a article that a certain fruit is part of their diet in the wild,forgot what the name is .



And that fruit is high in protein?


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## ZEROPILOT (Jan 6, 2015)

Tom said:


> Why do you think this? My experience with a whole lotta sulcatas has shown me otherwise. I actually started using Mazuri years ago on the advise of some of the top sulcata breeders in the country.
> 
> Mine don't like the LS, although I can fool them into eating by mixing it with other foods. And I don't like the LS version for babies because the pieces are too large and won't turn to mush wen soaked, like the regular Mazuri does.
> 
> Some protein is not only good for them, but its necessary. The biggest sulcata breeder on the planet (that I know of) uses alfalfa as the main diet for his giant herds of giants. I grow my own alfalfa and periodically feed it to all of my tortoises. I bring this up because alfalfa has a higher protein content than Mazuri.


Not long after I joined I was warned about feeding my RF too much Mazuri so I backed way off. It created eating problems as my torts went on a hunger strike. I was told by Tortoise Supply that Mazuri is better suited for Forrest species, namely Red footed and that more arid torts would do well with the LS.


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## Dizisdalife (Jan 6, 2015)

Almost everything is higher protein than grass. The rationale for feeding or not feeding Mazuri is not really about protein. Mazuri contains a balance of minerals and vitamins that I can't guarantee that my tortoise is getting otherwise. My caution with Mazuri diet is the amount of sugar it has, the source of fiber, and the digestibility of the food. Of course the convenience of feeding Mazuri is another factor. Since at times I run out of "natural foods", and I am sure others do, especially in colder climates, Mazuri is handy to have. 

I have seen my sulcata eat poop. First, when he was a baby, he ate his on poop. Then when he started going outside he found dog poop. Once I took him to my in-laws ranch so he could roam. There I saw him eat horse poop. This I found interesting because these are strictly hay feed animals and my sulcata was not eating hay. I don't think it was for protein either. A vet once told me that all animals eat feces as a pro-biotic. To load their gut with the bacteria they need to digest the foods in their territory. Still, I find it disgusting and try to discourage it. At age 3, my sulcata quit eating his own poop (as far as I can tell). Since we have no dogs now he doesn't get that either. He confused the horses so much that I don't take him to the ranch any more. I am a bit curious if he would still eat the horse poop.


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## leopard777 (Jan 6, 2015)

franz_see said:


> And that fruit is high in protein?



not sure , just found out the name _*Balanites aegyptiaca* , which they eat the date palms _


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## Tom (Jan 6, 2015)

franz_see said:


> Btw, just curious. Can alfalfa be fed regularly or sparingly only? Thanks!




This is debatable. As I mentioned above, the largest sulcata breeder that I know of uses alfalfa hay as a daily staple. I use it only periodically and I grow my own. I think it is fine to use it regularly as long as you make sure they are well hydrated and getting lots of other variety too.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 6, 2015)

I know that if you feed a horse only alfalfa hay it causes their urine to be very dark. We are supposed to balance the calcium/phosphorus ratio of the alfalfa with added oat hay. So I think the guy who only feed alfalfa hay to his sulcatas might be doing harm to their kidneys.

From a horse site: "Alfalfa is most beneficial for horses with high energy needs due to their moderate to high level of exertion. Alfalfa may provide too much energy, protein and nutrients for horses that are only occasionally exercised. Those horses that spend less than five hours a week performing low to moderate intensity activities, such as showing or recreational riding, do not require the high levels of nutrients that high quality Alfalfa supplies. A feed program for recreational horses should limit Alfalfa and include forage with high chew time, such as Timothy hay to combat idleness."

This leads me to think that Tom's approach to alfalfa feeding might be a better one.


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## franz_see (Jan 6, 2015)

Dizisdalife said:


> Almost everything is higher protein than grass. The rationale for feeding or not feeding Mazuri is not really about protein. Mazuri contains a balance of minerals and vitamins that I can't guarantee that my tortoise is getting otherwise. My caution with Mazuri diet is the amount of sugar it has, the source of fiber, and the digestibility of the food. Of course the convenience of feeding Mazuri is another factor. Since at times I run out of "natural foods", and I am sure others do, especially in colder climates, Mazuri is handy to have.
> 
> I have seen my sulcata eat poop. First, when he was a baby, he ate his on poop. Then when he started going outside he found dog poop. Once I took him to my in-laws ranch so he could roam. There I saw him eat horse poop. This I found interesting because these are strictly hay feed animals and my sulcata was not eating hay. I don't think it was for protein either. A vet once told me that all animals eat feces as a pro-biotic. To load their gut with the bacteria they need to digest the foods in their territory. Still, I find it disgusting and try to discourage it. At age 3, my sulcata quit eating his own poop (as far as I can tell). Since we have no dogs now he doesn't get that either. He confused the horses so much that I don't take him to the ranch any more. I am a bit curious if he would still eat the horse poop.



Correct. Mazuri is not only for protein. I apologize if I made it look like that. But what I'm trying to get at with my earlier comment is that everything else that Mazuri provides can technically be provided as well naturally. Seemingly, except for protein (unless you feed them poop, insects, etc). But I know better now given that @Tom pointed out that alfalfa is a good source of protein as well 

But you're right. Hatchlings would eat poop - regardless if it's theirs or not. But I think most baby animals are like that anyway


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## franz_see (Jan 6, 2015)

leopard777 said:


> not sure , just found out the name _*Balanites aegyptiaca* , which they eat the date palms _


Thanks! I'll look it up!


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## franz_see (Jan 6, 2015)

Tom said:


> This is debatable. As I mentioned above, the largest sulcata breeder that I know of uses alfalfa hay as a daily staple. I use it only periodically and I grow my own. I think it is fine to use it regularly as long as you make sure they are well hydrated and getting lots of other variety too.



Thanks! Curious though, for you, by "periodically", does that mean like once a week, or once a month, or really something like a few times a year only?


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## franz_see (Jan 6, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> I know that if you feed a horse only alfalfa hay it causes their urine to be very dark. We are supposed to balance the calcium/phosphorus ratio of the alfalfa with added oat hay. So I think the guy who only feed alfalfa hay to his sulcatas might be doing harm to their kidneys.
> 
> From a horse site: "Alfalfa is most beneficial for horses with high energy needs due to their moderate to high level of exertion. Alfalfa may provide too much energy, protein and nutrients for horses that are only occasionally exercised. Those horses that spend less than five hours a week performing low to moderate intensity activities, such as showing or recreational riding, do not require the high levels of nutrients that high quality Alfalfa supplies. A feed program for recreational horses should limit Alfalfa and include forage with high chew time, such as Timothy hay to combat idleness."
> 
> This leads me to think that Tom's approach to alfalfa feeding might be a better one.



Thanks @Yvonne G . Great information! 

Curious @Tom, and @Yvonne G , if Alfalfa is to be fed daily, what's the maximum amount of alfalfa can they be fed with? Would it be something like 10% of their overall diet? Not that I'm planning to do this, but I'm just curious how much "protein" should a sulcata have  Thanks!


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## Dizisdalife (Jan 7, 2015)

franz_see said:


> Correct. Mazuri is not only for protein. I apologize if I made it look like that. But what I'm trying to get at with my earlier comment is that everything else that Mazuri provides can technically be provided as well naturally. Seemingly, except for protein (unless you feed them poop, insects, etc). But I know better now given that @Tom pointed out that alfalfa is a good source of protein as well



Alfalfa and most of the legumes (clovers and medics) have similar protein levels as that of Mazuri. So, the protein in Mazuri is not an exception that can not be supplied naturally. I feed Mazuri for everything else it provides, other than the protein. Mazuri provides a balance of essential nutrients that I just can't be certain my tortoise is getting from grazing on even the most diversely planted yard I can imagine. 

I could be mistaken, but I believe that sulcata and leopards eat feces for something other than suppling protein. In the accounts that I have read about them eating feces in the wild it has been mostly from herds of grazing mammals. Probably eating the same grasses as available to the tortoises. Yet it would be more digestible than dried grass since having been eaten once already, it would contain more moisture since having passed through another animals gut, and still contain plenty of nutrients in the undigested plant matter it contains. It would also contain bacteria that is needed in the gut to digest the foods they are grazing on. Yes, I have seen my tortoise go for dog poop. And I am sure that in the wild they find and eat feces from carnivores. In this case I can see that they are getting "higher protein" levels. This doesn't convince me that they are seeking the protein in the feces. They are just being the opportunistic feeders that they are.


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## Tom (Jan 7, 2015)

franz_see said:


> Thanks! Curious though, for you, by "periodically", does that mean like once a week, or once a month, or really something like a few times a year only?



There is no set schedule. I feed it out based on how fast it is growing and how often I need to cut it back. Sometimes this is once or twice a week. Other times this is once a month. I would say that grass and grass hay is about the only thing that I feed them all on a daily basis. I try to mix in a wide variety of other things, depending on what is available at that time of year. For example, in spring and summer they see more mulberry leaves, cactus pads and grape vine leaves. In winter when these things are dormant, they see more wild grasses and weeds which only grow during out winter rains.


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## Tom (Jan 7, 2015)

franz_see said:


> Thanks @Yvonne G . Great information!
> 
> Curious @Tom, and @Yvonne G , if Alfalfa is to be fed daily, what's the maximum amount of alfalfa can they be fed with? Would it be something like 10% of their overall diet? Not that I'm planning to do this, but I'm just curious how much "protein" should a sulcata have  Thanks!



There are no set guidelines for this and no studies that I know of. Mine eat it once or twice a week mixed in with other things, or as little as once a month. That breeder I mentioned feeds it almost exclusively and has done so for many years. While I'm inclined to agree with Yvonne's assessment of that practice, it does not seem to be doing any harm that I can see.

If you are looking for a guideline, I would recommend feeding alfalfa, green beans, peas or something like that, around once or twice a week, mixed in with other foods. This amount will never harm your tortoise, and it will give the tortoise the protein it needs for growth and maintenance. THis is purely based on my "feelings" about the matter. I'm certain no harm would come to your tortoise if you doubled that amount, or halved it.


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## Tom (Jan 7, 2015)

Dizisdalife said:


> Alfalfa and most of the legumes (clovers and medics) have similar protein levels as that of Mazuri. So, the protein in Mazuri is not an exception that can not be supplied naturally. I feed Mazuri for everything else it provides, other than the protein. Mazuri provides a balance of essential nutrients that I just can't be certain my tortoise is getting from grazing on even the most diversely planted yard I can imagine.
> 
> I could be mistaken, but I believe that sulcata and leopards eat feces for something other than suppling protein. In the accounts that I have read about them eating feces in the wild it has been mostly from herds of grazing mammals. Probably eating the same grasses as available to the tortoises. Yet it would be more digestible than dried grass since having been eaten once already, it would contain more moisture since having passed through another animals gut, and still contain plenty of nutrients in the undigested plant matter it contains. It would also contain bacteria that is needed in the gut to digest the foods they are grazing on. Yes, I have seen my tortoise go for dog poop. And I am sure that in the wild they find and eat feces from carnivores. In this case I can see that they are getting "higher protein" levels. This doesn't convince me that they are seeking the protein in the feces. They are just being the opportunistic feeders that they are.




Well said Joe. I agree on all counts.


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## franz_see (Jan 7, 2015)

Tom said:


> There is no set schedule. I feed it out based on how fast it is growing and how often I need to cut it back. Sometimes this is once or twice a week. Other times this is once a month. I would say that grass and grass hay is about the only thing that I feed them all on a daily basis. I try to mix in a wide variety of other things, depending on what is available at that time of year. For example, in spring and summer they see more mulberry leaves, cactus pads and grape vine leaves. In winter when these things are dormant, they see more wild grasses and weeds which only grow during out winter rains.





Tom said:


> There are no set guidelines for this and no studies that I know of. Mine eat it once or twice a week mixed in with other things, or as little as once a month. That breeder I mentioned feeds it almost exclusively and has done so for many years. While I'm inclined to agree with Yvonne's assessment of that practice, it does not seem to be doing any harm that I can see.
> 
> If you are looking for a guideline, I would recommend feeding alfalfa, green beans, peas or something like that, around once or twice a week, mixed in with other foods. This amount will never harm your tortoise, and it will give the tortoise the protein it needs for growth and maintenance. THis is purely based on my "feelings" about the matter. I'm certain no harm would come to your tortoise if you doubled that amount, or halved it.



Understood. Thanks @Tom !


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## franz_see (Jan 7, 2015)

Dizisdalife said:


> Alfalfa and most of the legumes (clovers and medics) have similar protein levels as that of Mazuri. So, the protein in Mazuri is not an exception that can not be supplied naturally. I feed Mazuri for everything else it provides, other than the protein. Mazuri provides a balance of essential nutrients that I just can't be certain my tortoise is getting from grazing on even the most diversely planted yard I can imagine.
> 
> I could be mistaken, but I believe that sulcata and leopards eat feces for something other than suppling protein. In the accounts that I have read about them eating feces in the wild it has been mostly from herds of grazing mammals. Probably eating the same grasses as available to the tortoises. Yet it would be more digestible than dried grass since having been eaten once already, it would contain more moisture since having passed through another animals gut, and still contain plenty of nutrients in the undigested plant matter it contains. It would also contain bacteria that is needed in the gut to digest the foods they are grazing on. Yes, I have seen my tortoise go for dog poop. And I am sure that in the wild they find and eat feces from carnivores. In this case I can see that they are getting "higher protein" levels. This doesn't convince me that they are seeking the protein in the feces. They are just being the opportunistic feeders that they are.



Re Clover, and other legumes:
Very interesting information  I did not know that  can you provide some reference that I can read further?  Thanks! 

Re eating feces:
Interesting information as well  but you're right, I dont think they'll actively seek out feces  

Re protein in the wild;
Given the legumes seems to be good sources of protein, do you think that that'a their main source of protein in the wild? Or more of - their protein comes from multiple sources and they dont really get that much protein in the wild?  thanks!


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## Iochroma (Jan 7, 2015)

Sorry that I don't have any data on sulcata's natural diet, but the diet of some of the Mediterranean torts has been well studied, and there might be some clues in these studies. In Greeks and Hermann's around a quarter of the diet typically is from the Lugume family (alfalfa is one); these are high in protein, but also high in anti-feeding compounds the plants have to discourage herbivores. It is thought that the trade-off of acquiring the needed protien is worth the cost of the suffering with the toxins.

The strategy many herbivores use is to eat only a small amount of any one Lugume species, and then move to another species. In this way, the toxins don't seem to give them acute poisoning. Of course, in a captive setting a tortoise would not have the option of browsing in this way, and might over-consume a slightly toxic legume. They probably should not be given unlimited access to wild legumes.

Alfalfa is a great food plant; we have been selected and improving it for centuries. With my animals I do not have any hesitation in including it in the diet, but in moderation.

On coprophagy (poo-eating), it does seem that tortoises everywhere agree: poo is food. Icky as this is, I will point out that the droppings will have a much higher protien content than the original plant matter consumed, and is likely to be rich in animal amino acids that are not present in plants alone. Bon appetit


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## Dizisdalife (Jan 7, 2015)

franz_see said:


> Re Clover, and other legumes:
> Very interesting information  I did not know that  can you provide some reference that I can read further?  Thanks!


You can start with this chart: http://bunniesinneed.net/hay-nutritional-value-chart/
Ranchers and cattlemen have been feeding grasses and hays to animals for a long time. They have done a lot of research on this topic. They have wrestled with nutritional values and cost issues every business day. There is a ton of info on the internet about pasture mixes, hay, clovers and such.



franz_see said:


> Re eating feces:
> Interesting information as well  but you're right, I dont think they'll actively seek out feces


Sulcata, and I believe other tortoise species, are opportunistic eaters. When they do find feces they will eat it. And they will return to that spot to eat it again. They do remember. During the Spring my sulcata will sit beneath the peach tree and wait for a ripe peach to fall. Well, not exactly. But once he finds one in the yard he will return to that area every day looking for more.
My point was first, that they probably don't seek out feces just for the protein. I say probably because I am not a researcher, just an opinionated sulcata keeper. And second, that the feces that they generally find and eat in the wild has the same protein level as the plants around them. It is protein contained in the plants eaten by grazing mammals. The difference, especially for hatchlings, is that the feces of these mammals, because it is food that has been partially digested already, is easier for the hatchling to eat and digest. Think of a mother bird feeding her baby by regurgitating into the baby's mouth. That baby bird could not eat or digest the same food as the mother bird.



franz_see said:


> Re protein in the wild;
> Given the legumes seems to be good sources of protein, do you think that that'a their main source of protein in the wild? Or more of - their protein comes from multiple sources and they dont really get that much protein in the wild?  thanks!


I don't really know what plants (other than the general term "grasses")they have in their natural habitat. They are grass eaters and get almost all of their nutrients, including protein, from plants.


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## Tom (Jan 7, 2015)

franz_see said:


> Re protein in the wild;
> Given the legumes seems to be good sources of protein, do you think that that'a their main source of protein in the wild? Or more of - their protein comes from multiple sources and they dont really get that much protein in the wild?  thanks!



I agree with Joe here. The only place I've seen anything of substance written about the diet of wild sulcatas was in "The Crying Tortoise", and there wasn't much there either. I've seen no studies done, and no lists of the plants that make up the typical diet of a wild sulcata of any age.

We are just guessing here, and primarily going off of what we observe in our captive tortoises.

If anyone reading has info or insight about wild sulcata diets, please chime in.


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## Dizisdalife (Jan 7, 2015)

Iochroma said:


> On coprophagy (poo-eating), it does seem that tortoises everywhere agree: poo is food. Icky as this is, I will point out that the droppings will have a much higher protein content than the original plant matter consumed, and is likely to be rich in animal amino acids that are not present in plants alone. Bon appetit


It surprises me the protein level would be higher in digested material. Not sure I would understand an explanation of how it happens though. Good information.


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## Iochroma (Jan 7, 2015)

Dizisdalife said:


> It surprises me the protein level would be higher in digested material. Not sure I would understand an explanation of how it happens though. Good information.



A large component of the dropping is cellular debris from the excreting organs, and the lining of the intestine; it is full of bacteria and other "gut flora" all of which increase protein content.


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## Tom (Jan 7, 2015)

It was explained to me in college Biology that ruminants don't actually digest the plant matter they ingest. Their flora and fauna digest it, and they digest the flora and fauna. So their stomach complex is actually a microorganism factory in essence.

So their droppings would be the remnants of the plant matter that did not get digested along with the digested flora and fauna that has passed through.

Sound correct?


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## Iochroma (Jan 7, 2015)

Tom said:


> It was explained to me in college Biology that ruminants don't actually digest the plant matter they ingest. Their flora and fauna digest it, and they digest the flora and fauna. So their stomach complex is actually a microorganism factory in essence.
> 
> So their droppings would be the remnants of the plant matter that did not get digested along with the digested flora and fauna that has passed through.
> 
> Sound correct?



Right.
I think tortoises digestion is similarly dependent on bacteria to break down their high-cellulose diets, but I have never seen any papers that support that theory.


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## Tom (Jan 7, 2015)

Iochroma said:


> Right.
> I think tortoises digestion is similarly dependent on bacteria to break down their high-cellulose diets, but I have never seen any papers that support that theory.



I recall a fairly big distinction between ruminants like deer, camels, kangaroos, and cows, and non-ruminants like horses and elephants. The distinction being that the non-ruminants had much less efficient digestive systems and relied more on volume than efficiency. I think our tortoises would be grouped with the non-ruminants, but I will happily take correction if I am wrong.

I've worked with kangaroos in the past and I've been working with camels for more than 20 years. The efficiency of their digestive systems is astounding. My 300 pound donkey makes more poop than my 2000 pound camel and she eats twice the amount of food. We can feed the camel any kind of hay, weeds or leaves and those little milk duds always come out the same. Change the donkey's diet and you can really see a difference.


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## J.P. (Jan 7, 2015)

Hi Franz,
I hope you weren't confused by my suggestion to try mazuri. like i said, I give mazuri (as well as zoomed grassland and serra raffy vital) for the other nutrients that may be missing in the natural food i provide. when i do, i crush a small amount and mix it with the greens. i tried to feed whole pellets, but they turn up their noses at it. and if i give a higher percentage of mazuri in the mix, i am sure to get a lot of left overs.

despite the higher protein content, the amount of mazuri my torts are getting is insignificant compared to the amount of greens, so for the case of my torts, i do not think the high protein in the mazuri mattered much. they have grown, but i think bulk of the protein that caused their growth came from the natural food items. 

mazuri is good, but i do not think it is essential. i hope i did not make you think it was solely responsible for my healthy herd.

if you want a high protein food item, try mung bean sprouts. it's one of the highest protein veggies we have locally. mine love it, but i give very sparingly since i am not sure if it's good or not.


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