# Indoor "Enclosure" Ideas



## Wewt (Jul 28, 2013)

Hello! 

From what I've learned, I have a pretty unusual way of keeping my Sulcata tortoise. He is 25ish pounds, eight years old, and lives in my house. I got him two years ago from a lady that specifically sold him to me because I planned on having him wander around my condo. I researched the sulcatas for what they ate and what they needed as far as lighting and heat goes, but other than that... I had to learn the hard way. 

Anyways, here are the two set-ups I've had since we got him. 


The 600 sq. ft. condo in Calgary, Alberta, Canada: 








In the above area he has his UV/heat lamp nestled against a very large planter (which ruined the hardwood floor, lol), and then two smaller planters. They have day lillies, which he can eat, and a clamatis, which he cannot eat. The plants all ended up dying because there wasn't enough sunshine. 8( 
We had a slight problem in the winter of him just wanting to sleep all day- the days were so short and so he wouldn't want to be up for more than a few hours. We then put him in his space, blocked him in, and then draped a blanket over the whole area to make a little sauna thing. He'd spend about two hours a day in there, but only with supervision. 


The townhouse in Abbotsford, British Columbia, Canada: 








Here we have him set up in our living room with two white boards against the wall to minimize damages, as he likes to dig into his corner. This will also be able to adapt to another light so that his warm space can be bigger, with a super warm area in the middle. 
He also has a nice big space in the garage with some cardboard boxes set up as hides and tunnels, with blankets in the hides for him to "dig" in. The garage opens up onto our small, shared green space, but within a week he had trampled a bush and worn down the grass until there was barely anything there. No yard for the tort. He goes to the park a few hours every 1-2 days, though. 

In both enclosures, under his mat, there is a small warming pad. When it is bed time we turn off the lamp, put him on his warm pad, and cover him up with a big blanket so that he can feel safe and secure, like he would in a burrow. The blanket also helps trap heat from the pad. 

And that's how I live with my tortoise!


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## Jd3 (Jul 28, 2013)

I know you think this is cool and nice for him... But he has nothing of nature. It I much like putting you I'm a drab prison cell. 

He needs dirt to dig into and grass to graze and burrow through. A dog bed is not a home for a tortoise. 

You cannot keep your home the proper temp for him to be roaming freely all the time. Not unless you to are a reptile and/or cold blooded. 

He needs a substrate that is like the earth... Not like a gymnasium.


I'd also think an 8 year old sully should weight considerably more than 25 lbs.


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## Wewt (Jul 28, 2013)

I've been contemplating putting this post up for quite a while. I knew there would be negative comments, but I am fully prepared to have a good discussion about my set up and possibly debate about it, too. 

I understand where you are coming from, but my tortoise is extremely happy and healthy. My vet said that he was in extremely good health and had a fantastic temperament. My tortoise, with this set up, also gets MUCH more stimulation than most tortoises would get. His space indoors is large, always with new things to explore. His space in the garage is lovely, and he is super active in there running in and out of his various spots for hiding. Every day, perhaps with a day skipped once a week, he goes to the park to roam and play for at least two hours each time. Often we will bring a picnic, a frisbee, and a good book, and spend the whole afternoon there. 

I appreciate your concern, but my tort is very happy. 


Also, about the weight: I've only had him for two years, and the lady before me had fed him terribly. She told me to feed him 80% fruits and veggies. Luckily, I had already done my own research and knew better than that.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Jul 28, 2013)

So what are the average temps of your condo? Not on the wall, but on the floor?


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## Wewt (Jul 28, 2013)

Cowboy_Ken said:


> So what are the average temps of your condo? Not on the wall, but on the floor?



30 degrees in his spot, and then a range of 20-28 degrees, depending on the time of day, cloud cover, etc. Not quite ideal, but he is well adapted to this lifestyle. He will sit under his light for 20 mins to an hour, get up, run around, and then go back to his light again. The garage is quite a bit warmer, from 25-30 degrees. Not sure how the temps will hold in the garage during the winter, though. Worst case, I grab a small room heater. 

Living in Canada, there isn't much else to do to solve the problem of the cooler temperatures. Lots of people have Sulcatas here, though. There is one living at a local petting zoo who was a rescue (someone drilled holes in his shell to make handles, *gag*) and resides with a couple of bearded dragons and a rabbit, lol! 

If I could live in California and have a giant backyard, I would. But I can't, so I do absolutely everything I can to make up for that.

Oh, also: I'm not sure who hatched him, but I am pretty sure he was hatched in Canada. The lady who had him previously lived north of Edmonton, Alberta, and kept him and another Sulcata in the same enclosure, which was a shed or small barn. So he's used to cooler temps, he's had it his whole life.


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## mchong9606 (Jul 28, 2013)

I'll have to give praise to Wewt for being creative and loving his sulcata and doing the best he can. What more can you do? Unfortunately there's plenty of people who acquire these torts with no idea of how to take care of them and no idea of how big they'll get. At least he's informed and cares, that's more than half the battle. I agree, the best is a huge plot of land under ideal weather conditions all year long. But his tort is cared for, not abandon to die a slow death. Personally, I would love to get a sully, but living in Canada as well, I can't see myself getting such a huge tort. Ironically, that's half the charm of these animals, the fact they get so large. Heck, I'd splurge and get an aldabra if I had the right space! A+ for being creative and caring. Good luck, eh!


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## Wewt (Jul 28, 2013)

mchong9606 said:


> I'll have to give praise to Wewt for being creative and loving his sulcata and doing the best he can. What more can you do? Unfortunately there's plenty of people who acquire these torts with no idea of how to take care of them and no idea of how big they'll get. At least he's informed and cares, that's more than half the battle. I agree, the best is a huge plot of land under ideal weather conditions all year long. But his tort is cared for, not abandon to die a slow death. Personally, I would love to get a sully, but living in Canada as well, I can't see myself getting such a huge tort. Ironically, that's half the charm of these animals, the fact they get so large. Heck, I'd splurge and get an aldabra if I had the right space! A+ for being creative and caring. Good luck, eh!



Yay, thanks for the good comment! I was worried I'd just get yelled at all night long. 

(I'm a girl) 

The way I look after my tortoise is _different_, which isn't necessarily bad. His temperature could be a little higher, which, I just learned, might have caused him to be stunted in size. My vet said that she's seen 50 year old Sulcatas not much bigger than him. Like the guy above me said, I do all I can.


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## lindseyjordan10 (Jul 28, 2013)

I think the way your raising your sulcata is amazing!!! So cool!! You are doing the best you can and if he's healthy and happy then that's all that matters. People are way too quick to judge on here. I think it's great the way you have it set up.


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## alysciaingram (Jul 28, 2013)

I don't mean to sound crass, or rude, but where does your tort go potty? My dog took 3 months to housebreak and stepping in his mess was troublesome, and he only weighed 12lbs lol. (I also should wear my glasses more often when I walk around barefoot..)

Regardless if it is conventional or not, I think both set ups were beautifully decorated and incorporated into your home. It's hard with animal furnishings to always do that.


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## Wewt (Jul 28, 2013)

lindseyjordan10 said:


> I think the way your raising your sulcata is amazing!!! So cool!! You are doing the best you can and if he's healthy and happy then that's all that matters. People are way too quick to judge on here. I think it's great the way you have it set up.



<3 Thank you! 

When I first got my tortoise I thought everyone had them this way...



alysciaingram said:


> I don't mean to sound crass, or rude, but where does your tort go potty? My dog took 3 months to housebreak and stepping in his mess was troublesome, and he only weighed 12lbs lol. (I also should wear my glasses more often when I walk around barefoot..)
> 
> Regardless if it is conventional or not, I think both set ups were beautifully decorated and incorporated into your home. It's hard with animal furnishings to always do that.



Haha! Very common question. He poops and pees on the floor. I am trying to train him to go on his pad, but I feel that these efforts are futile. We first pick/mop it up with a cloth or paper towel, and then we steam our floors every night. Sometimes he likes to run around and poop quite a bit, and this is when we stick him in the garage to play. 

Thanks for the kind words! I like the plant set up a lot better, but it's too dark in the house for them.


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## Jd3 (Jul 28, 2013)

Wewt said:


> lindseyjordan10 said:
> 
> 
> > I think the way your raising your sulcata is amazing!!! So cool!! You are doing the best you can and if he's healthy and happy then that's all that matters. People are way too quick to judge on here. I think it's great the way you have it set up.
> ...



Salmonella is present in most tortoise intestinal tracts. In a normal situation this is contained and not on our living surfaces. 

You have not magically adapted or evolved your tortoise to not want proper temps, or proper habitat. 

It hasn't grown as much as it should in part because the temps are too low. You said it yourself. It went a long time barely moving... Because it was cold. They stop functioning when they aren't warm enough 

You seem like you've read enough to know this isn't a good idea but gave yourself some justification as to how it is good for you and the tort. It isn't in either case. 

Animal furnishings are about being proper for the animal. A dog bed does not replace a burrow. 

People aren't too quick to judge. The opposite. They are afraid to hurt someone feelings and aren't open to how bad something like this is for everyone involved. 

We haven't even talked about the other risk factors.


Co-habitating in a space with tortoise pee and poop all over is disgusting. I don't care how often you clean it. 

Like I said. You've decided that you have enough info to think this is good, but it really isn't. The space gets as low as 68 degrees? So it has to muster up the strength to seek out a 2 sq foot warm spot... 

But she it gets there it can't burrow or even rest on soil or grass. It gets a dog bed. That usually dogs don't even like.


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## Wewt (Jul 28, 2013)

Jd3 said:


> Wewt said:
> 
> 
> > lindseyjordan10 said:
> ...







Sorry, I hate to disagree with you. You are more likely to get salmonella from a dog than you are from a tortoise, which is why they are legal to keep in BC but turtles are not. My house is very clean- I'd lick the floors to prove it to you. Besides, it's really not anyones business how clean someone else's house is, as long as the animals and children are comfortable. 

Your argument is substantial, of course. I wish my tortoise lived in a huge savannah grassland with a 20ft burrow where he could walk five miles a day with the sun on his back and all the grass he could ever want. Is anyone providing this in captivity, other than zoos or people who live on acreages? No, I don't think so. I make up for my lacking of a burrow by getting him out into new, interesting places for him to explore, and letting him walk in a straight line for two hours at a time if he wants to. Most tortoise owners can't do that. 

So, if we were to go with your argument, all zoos are terrible places for animals. No polar bear should be allowed out of Northern Canada, no penguins should be allowed out of the South pole, and no tigers or sloths or anything like that should be in captivity. That's just not how it works. 

My tort was born and raised in Canada with cold conditions, and I am doing everything I can to ensure that he is the healthiest, happiest tort possible, aside from shipping him over to Africa. Being a little growth stunted isn't the end of the world- he got an A+ from the vet who said there was nothing she would change about the way I was raising him.

Also: lots of people post outdoor enclosures with igloo-type dog shelters that are just fine. My tortoise sleeps with a big, fluffy blanket under and on him with a warm pad underneath. He goes right to sleep and is safe, warm, and secure, just as if he were in a real burrow.


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## ra94131 (Jul 28, 2013)

While I respect your desire to own a Sulcata, I think you'll run into a lot of opposition on this forum for this. Most people here (myself included) do not subscribe to the "well, it could be worse" school of animal husbandry. Getting as close to ideal as possible in captivity is the goal.

That said, the tortoise does seem relatively healthy but you definitely need to get those temperatures up. (And if you ever relocate, try to find some dirt, grass, and sun.)


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## klinej50 (Jul 28, 2013)

It may be a different way to raise a sully but hey if that's what is working for you good job! I really like how much you have changed your home and lifestyle just to make sure your tort is happy.


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## Wewt (Jul 28, 2013)

ra94131 said:


> While I respect your desire to own a Sulcata, I think you'll run into a lot of opposition on this forum for this. Most people here (myself included) do not subscribe to the "well, it could be worse" school of animal husbandry. Getting as close to ideal as possible in captivity is the goal.
> 
> That said, the tortoise does seem relatively healthy but you definitely need to get those temperatures up. (And if you ever relocate, try to find some dirt, grass, and sun.)



Haha, the only thing not 100% about his environment is the temperature. And, if you argue it, that he doesn't get to nestle up in the dirt at night. I realize that I will run into opposition, which is why I made this post. I've been on here long enough that I figured I should show people the way I am keeping my tort. 

Eventually I'll build a house and have the entire backyard and main level of it designed around a huge tortoise. I already have the plans drawn up, so now we are just waiting a few years for everything else to fit into place. Until then, he is a very happy, healthy tortoise. 



klinej50 said:


> It may be a different way to raise a sully but hey if that's what is working for you good job! I really like how much you have changed your home and lifestyle just to make sure your tort is happy.



Thanks! Glad you appreciate it.  All the changes he has made to us are positive-- sitting outside to do nothing for a few hours a day, making sure our house is super clean, and always having greens in the fridge.


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## lindseyjordan10 (Jul 28, 2013)

Don't listen to all of the negativity. You weren't asking for anyones opinion. You just wanted to show how you raise your tortoise and if the vet said he is healthy then obviously you are doing something right. It's funny how it can be said that people don't speak up and aren't too quick to judge, but when theres so much negativity it makes people not want to come on here and ask for help because people are so nervous about being criticized on here. So those people who are afraid to post comments and get help may actually be the ones who need help. I am an example of that. I have questions about my sulcata from time to time but dont like to ask because i dont want to deal with the rudeness. If your told by your vet he is healthy then that is all that matters and if you want to raise him inside your house and clean up his poop and pee then that is your choice!! If people are posting on here it's obviously because they want to do the best they can. Its supposed to be a place to share and get help!


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## Jd3 (Jul 28, 2013)

Wewt said:


> ra94131 said:
> 
> 
> > While I respect your desire to own a Sulcata, I think you'll run into a lot of opposition on this forum for this. Most people here (myself included) do not subscribe to the "well, it could be worse" school of animal husbandry. Getting as close to ideal as possible in captivity is the goal.
> ...



No... Temp. Substrate. Hides. Etc. this is serving the purpose of a dog or cat for you. Tortoise make terrible cats. 

A
Dog bed is not where he should rest when needing to feel secure. Nature is inside this guy. You're just confusing him.


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## ra94131 (Jul 28, 2013)

lindseyjordan10 said:


> Don't listen to all of the negativity. You weren't asking for anyones opinion. You just wanted to show how you raise your tortoise and if the vet said he is healthy then obviously you are doing something right. It's funny how it can be said that people don't speak up and aren't too quick to judge, but when theres so much negativity it makes people not want to come on here and ask for help because people are so nervous about being criticized on here. So those people who are afraid to post comments and get help may actually be the ones who need help. I am an example of that. I have questions about my sulcata from time to time but dont like to ask because i dont want to deal with the rudeness. If your told by your vet he is healthy then that is all that matters and if you want to raise him inside your house and clean up his poop and pee then that is your choice!! If people are posting on here it's obviously because they want to do the best they can. Its supposed to be a place to share and get help!



I really don't think anyone has been particularly rude. Expressing disagreement does not have to be rude and I believe the OP aknowledged herself that her methods are controversial. Discussing them in a reasonable manner seems to be the natural course of action and the only way to share/refine ideas.


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## Wewt (Jul 28, 2013)

ra94131 said:


> I really don't think anyone has been particularly rude. Expressing disagreement does not have to be rude and I believe the OP aknowledged herself that her methods are controversial. Discussing them in a reasonable manner seems to be the natural course of action and the only way to share/refine ideas.



No, you are exactly right. I started this thread knowing that not too many other people have their tortoises living with them in their house like this and was prepared to discuss it. In my opinion, as long as your tortoise is healthy, happy, and not neglected, then you are doing a good job. Of course, there is always room for improvement! 



lindseyjordan10 said:


> Don't listen to all of the negativity. You weren't asking for anyones opinion. You just wanted to show how you raise your tortoise and if the vet said he is healthy then obviously you are doing something right. It's funny how it can be said that people don't speak up and aren't too quick to judge, but when theres so much negativity it makes people not want to come on here and ask for help because people are so nervous about being criticized on here. So those people who are afraid to post comments and get help may actually be the ones who need help. I am an example of that. I have questions about my sulcata from time to time but dont like to ask because i dont want to deal with the rudeness. If your told by your vet he is healthy then that is all that matters and if you want to raise him inside your house and clean up his poop and pee then that is your choice!! If people are posting on here it's obviously because they want to do the best they can. Its supposed to be a place to share and get help!



Thank you, I appreciate you standing up for me.  I don't mind negative comments as long as they are all about constructive criticism. All I see here is criticism, no construction. 



Jd3 said:


> No... Temp. Substrate. Hides. Etc. this is serving the purpose of a dog or cat for you. Tortoise make terrible cats.
> 
> A
> Dog bed is not where he should rest when needing to feel secure. Nature is inside this guy. You're just confusing him.



Let's consider a few things here. 

1. I bought him when he was six years old from a person who was raising two Sulcatas together somewhere around Edmonton, Alberta. I don't know much about how she kept them except that they were together and my tortoise was bullying the other one, who was in "poor health", according to her, from such bullying.

2. If I hadn't purchased him, someone else with exactly the same circumstances would have, and he couldn't possibly have a better home outside of moving him to a warmer climate. 

3. Even if I did have a huge outdoor enclosure with all of the stuff you insist are requirements, I live in Abbotsford, BC. He can only be outside for three months of the year, which still doesn't satisfy your requirements. 

4. Have you ever lived with a tortoise inside? It doesn't sound like you have. He is an absolutely fantastic pet, loves to toodle around and get his head rubbed, walk on your feet, and snuggle up with you on the couch. 

If you would like to see videos of him running about my place, happy as a clam, I can provide them. Also, he's never been too cold to "barely move to his warm area..." He dictates when he wakes up and goes to sleep based on the light coming in from the windows. In the summer he wakes up around 8am and goes to bed around 11pm, with tort naps etc. during the day. In the winter, with bad weather and cloud cover, he would be tricked into thinking that the day was 4 hours long. Concerned for his lack of time under his light, I stuck him under there for a sauna to ensure he received a proper amount of light, as dictated by my vet at the time.


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## thatrebecca (Jul 28, 2013)

He's a lovely tort and it's clear he's dear to you. Question: is there any reason he couldn't have a kiddie pool full of some diggable substrate in his sleeping corner in lieu of a dog bed? I use orchid bark in my desert torts' indoor enclosure, and they just love burrowing into it at night. Something about digging in just makes torts so happy.


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## Wewt (Jul 28, 2013)

thatrebecca said:


> He's a lovely tort and it's clear he's dear to you. Question: is there any reason he couldn't have a kiddie pool full of some diggable substrate in his sleeping corner in lieu of a dog bed? I use orchid bark in my desert torts' indoor enclosure, and they just love burrowing into it at night. Something about digging in just makes torts so happy.



I wish I could, but I can't. My place is a rental and they visit every three months. They know I have a tortoise, and are fine with us keeping him like this. He digs in blankets and in the dirt if he finds some when we are out for walks, but I've never really seen him dig _too_ much. My mom had him for a month while we moved and he lived in her yard almost the entire time, with lots of open flower beds and such. He never dug in them at all. *shrug* I don't know if he's ever had anything to dig in. His digging efforts are hilariously misguided. 

Thanks for the feedback, though.  In the future perhaps I can get a kiddie pool for the garage area, as I do like the idea of him having somewhere to dig.

Here is a cute video of him running around in the old condo, eating carrots, being curious and adorable.


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## Jd3 (Jul 29, 2013)

The proper indoor enclosure would still have dirt and substrate and heat and the like. You've made your decision this is good for him but it isn't. No justification you offer passes for allowing a tort live a concrete jungle life. 

Zoos that do not offer naturalistic habitats are indeed crap. If they cannot house the animal indoors and out with more than a cement pad and bars, they should not be in the zoo business. 

There is nothing enriching about this for the tort. They have evolved for a million years. They know where they are supposed to be. They show so much energy and thrive much better when given what they need. 

I understand your desire for a sulcutta, but that doesn't make it right or good for the animal. He's living In temps that would make digestion slow, with no burrow or nest. Sleeping on a dog bed... 

It sounds like a dog would be more suited for this. And then you can actually potty train him and stop living in tortoise feces. 

I'm willing to bed your local department of health would actually have a high level of concern on this. Especially since it is a rental.


Why in the world couldn't you have a kiddie pool of dirt because it is a rental? We're talking a plastic tub full of dirt... Certainly if there ok with tort feces an ruin ground into the floor and walls they'd be ok with a dirt tub that might catch some of it...


The fact that he hasn't been allowed to dig much just makes this more sad. Not further justification for not allowing. Him to have the proper habitat.


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## thatrebecca (Jul 29, 2013)

Wewt said:


> thatrebecca said:
> 
> 
> > He's a lovely tort and it's clear he's dear to you. Question: is there any reason he couldn't have a kiddie pool full of some diggable substrate in his sleeping corner in lieu of a dog bed? I use orchid bark in my desert torts' indoor enclosure, and they just love burrowing into it at night. Something about digging in just makes torts so happy.
> ...



I wasn't able to see the video -- it appears as a still photo to me. I would love to watch him scramble around.

It sounds like your landlord is a big part of the reason for your setup. I bet if they're reasonable they would understand a kiddie pool with substrate would actually be safer for their property, because the tort will have something to burrow into besides floorboards and walls. If they still balk, you might offer to add a sum to your security deposit. It looks like you keep your house very clean and you're probably a good tenant, so a landlord would be inclined to keep you happy.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Jul 29, 2013)

Wewt said:


> I have a russian tortoise that was a surrender that also lived with a rabbit. The rabbit chewed 7 of this poor guys toes off.
> My point is just because a zoo does it, doesn't make it right.


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## Wewt (Jul 29, 2013)

Jd3 said:



> The proper indoor enclosure would still have dirt and substrate and heat and the like. You've made your decision this is good for him but it isn't. No justification you offer passes for allowing a tort live a concrete jungle life.
> 
> Zoos that do not offer naturalistic habitats are indeed crap. If they cannot house the animal indoors and out with more than a cement pad and bars, they should not be in the zoo business.
> 
> ...






It sounds like we are just going to have to agree to disagree. The only thing he is lacking is 24/7 access to dirt and grass and a burrow. It's not that big of a deal. When you think about it, we evolved in the exact same habitat as the Sulcata, yet we live in urban areas and are just fine. All of your arguments are based on your own _feelings_, which do not do anything to help my tortoise or give me ideas. A small tub of dirt won't do anything to make his life better, nor is there room for one in my house. I said above that I'll consider putting one in my garage, once I find the proper materials and have some money in the bank. 

You assume a heck of a lot of things about a situation you don't understand in the slightest. I feel like you are plugging your ears and saying, "lalalalala" to anything I've counter-argued. 

Not that it matters, but it isn't a "dog bed" he is sleeping on, anyways. Not sure why this is such a big deal. It's the plastic mat out of a dog kennel, a warm heating pad, and a bath mat. I have the plastic mat there because often times he will pee and poo in his sleep and I don't like cleaning stuck poo off the ground. 

There is never dried or old poop in my house. I know the second he has done it, I clean it up, and we go on about our days. It doesn't bother me, nor my fiance, nor anyone who comes over to my house, even when they bring their kids. Stop judging. Come over for supper. I'll cook up some salmon. 

Oh, also: lots of zoos house things like polar bears and penguins in conditions where they cannot supply them with year-round snow or cold temperatures, but I don't see you having a problem with this. It's the same scenario. The animals are still happy, but they don't always get what they want. 



thatrebecca said:


> I wasn't able to see the video -- it appears as a still photo to me. I would love to watch him scramble around.
> 
> It sounds like your landlord is a big part of the reason for your setup. I bet if they're reasonable they would understand a kiddie pool with substrate would actually be safer for their property, because the tort will have something to burrow into besides floorboards and walls. If they still balk, you might offer to add a sum to your security deposit. It looks like you keep your house very clean and you're probably a good tenant, so a landlord would be inclined to keep you happy.



There simply isn't room in the main floor of my house, and it would actually be a lot messier than having him wander around like normal. Like I said above, I'll consider putting one in the garage. I like my tort happy and didn't feel like he had the urge to dig or was missing out. When he is in his giant fluffy blankie I hear him make dig sounds for a minute and then he falls asleep. Digging seems more of a reflexive soothing thing than a necessity or fun thing that they do. My tort prefers to climb on or around things for his "fun" activity. 

The video should work.. If you click on it it should take you to my photobucket account and then play for you. :/


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## Tom (Jul 29, 2013)

I had to think a lot about this one before commenting. It's a complex issue and I really do see both sides of this coin, and both sides make some valid points. I have to agree with Jd3 on the one hand. This does not fall within the realm of what I would find acceptable for housing a large tortoise. I would never own a giant species of tortoise in a frozen climate at all, much less in an apartment or condo that doesn't have its own large yard. If one wanted to be generous, a tropical tortoise wandering around a cold floor with only a small hot spot can be described as "less than optimal". If one didn't wish to be generous, worse could be said. That fact that its a burrowing species does not help the case, and blankets are not a substitute in my mind. The fact that its the size of a normal three year old at eight is very telling too.

On the other hand, I admire your courage for posting this knowing you'd get criticized. I respect the fact that you are doing what you think is best and going all out to give your tortoise the best life you can. There are a whole lot of tortoises that do not receive anywhere near as good of care as your tortoise does, and so, you get an "A" for effort.

In reality any captive situation is a compromise at best. There are those who think that ANY form of captivity is horrible and a total disservice to the animal, no matter how well it is cared for, fed and housed. So when I compare your housing situation to mine, or to any of the many torties that live near me with large outdoor pens, sunshine, natural grazing and the ability to burrow, your hardwood floors and doggy bed, make me very sad for your tortoise. However, when I compare your tortoise's situation to some dumb kid with their tortoise on rabbit pellets in a 10 gallon tank with some wilted, three day old, untouched iceberg lettuce and a red bulb that is on 24/7, your situation is glorious.

What I am saying is that, all of this is relative. Its all opinion and subjective. It all depends on one's frame of reference and point of view. There are many reasons why your tortoise might be undersized. The fact that I would not house one this way, does not mean that no one else should, or that they are a bad person for doing it. MY own enclosures are artificial too, and someone could come along and not pick all the things I do "wrong" as well.

The difficult question for me is this: Would I rather see your tortoise living this way, but with an obviously loving caring owner that goes to great lengths and effort to meet the tortoises needs in a less than ideal housing situation, or would I rather see your tortoise left to its own devices, basically neglected with an uncaring owner in a back yard in Phoenix? So hard to say. A caring concientious owner is a must. You have that covered very well. But the proper living environment is also a must, and I don't think you have that covered at all.

Personally I wish you well and hope your tortoise stays healthy. I also hope that you end up somewhere with a large yard that you can make into a nice tortoise enclosure for at least part of the year.


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## Wewt (Jul 29, 2013)

Tom said:


> I had to think a lot about this one before commenting. It's a complex issue and I really do see both sides of this coin, and both sides make some valid points. I have to agree with Jd3 on the one hand. This does not fall within the realm of what I would find acceptable for housing a large tortoise. I would never own a giant species of tortoise in a frozen climate at all, much less in an apartment or condo that doesn't have its own large yard. If one wanted to be generous, a tropical tortoise wandering around a cold floor with only a small hot spot can be described as "less than optimal". If one didn't wish to be generous, worse could be said. That fact that its a burrowing species does not help the case, and blankets are not a substitute in my mind. The fact that its the size of a normal three year old at eight is very telling too.
> 
> On the other hand, I admire your courage for posting this knowing you'd get criticized. I respect the fact that you are doing what you think is best and going all out to give your tortoise the best life you can. There are a whole lot of tortoises that do not receive anywhere near as good of care as your tortoise does, and so, you get an "A" for effort.
> 
> ...



I was wondering if you would show up in here, haha! 

I understand where you are coming from but, no offence, none of you have experience in this particular area of raising a tortoise. I love to see my little man out running free in the tall grass, too, and I give him that as much as I can- much more than most people would do in my circumstances. 

The bottom line here is that I did not snatch up a hatchling from California and steal him away to Canada. I purchased my tortoise from Edmonton, Alberta (google map this place) and brought him to Abbotsford, British Columbia (google map this, too). I've already brought him to a warmer, more tropical location. Already working on that. Nothing else I can do aside from taking a hippie freedom ride to California and setting him loose in Tom's backyard. 

Another thing is that my floors have never been cold. In the condo I was on the sixth floor, so there were many rooms below me to provide insulation. In my townhouse my garage is below me, which I have already said is warmer than the rest of the house, and so is also providing insulation. If you watch the video it is not indicative at all of a cold, unhappy tortoise who is starved of some sort of alternative stimulus. 

My tort loves his blankie. When he sees it in the corner he will go over to it and climb on it and make his little diggy moves and I'll giggle and cover him up. It's super cute. I suppose it's hard to believe that this is what I've found as an alternative, but it's the best I've got. 

Even when we get him his pool of substrate he can't sleep in there. I don't trust the temps in the garage to be stable-- he sleeps upstairs under a blanket on top of his heat pad. 

I invite any skeptic to take a vacation to BC and visit my house. BC is pretty- you won't regret it.

Oh, also: He had access to a backyard for 10 hours a day for a month and didn't dig at all. I don't think he is missing it. 


Here is a picture of him zonked out on a towel in the bathroom of our old condo. In the condo he liked to sleep in the bathroom with his blankie because the tile was heated and he felt enclosed with the darkness and all. 





Looks like a very content, happy tortoise to me. If he wasn't happy, would he be all stretched out and comfy like that?


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## Tom (Jul 29, 2013)

Wewt said:


> I understand where you are coming from but, no offence, none of you have experience in this particular area of raising a tortoise.



About this, you are correct, so no offense taken at all. Your other points and assertions are all arguable, but it will just boil down to personal opinion in the end.

Again, I admire your dedication and devotion, and wish the best for you and your tortoise.


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## Wewt (Jul 29, 2013)

Tom said:


> Wewt said:
> 
> 
> > I understand where you are coming from but, no offence, none of you have experience in this particular area of raising a tortoise.
> ...



Thanks, Tom! In the end we all want the same things: A healthy, happy tortoise. We've just found different ways to achieve this. 

Also, I just found out about his stunting a few days ago in a thread about cuttle bones. Came as a shock to me, as neither of my two vets told me that this was a possibility, even after inspecting his faeces. Because of this I will be adding a second light to expand his warm area and offer him an ultra-warm spot right in the middle of his mat. His stunting began long before I got him, and has just continued. Aside from being small for his age, he is perfectly healthy. My vet wasn't concerned about his size at all, so I think it might be a commonality amongst Canadian Sulcatas.


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## Jd3 (Jul 29, 2013)

Wewt said:


> Jd3 said:
> 
> 
> > The proper indoor enclosure would still have dirt and substrate and heat and the like. You've made your decision this is good for him but it isn't. No justification you offer passes for allowing a tort live a concrete jungle life.
> ...






I actually pretty clearly stated in the post you quotes that zoos that offer nothing more than bars and a cement cage are crap.

Funny you should compare this to keeping polar bears or penguins in improper homes. That is what I thought of when I saw it. 

I do not support that type of husbandry. Modern, conservation minded zoos do not either. 

Digging is instinctive. They are borrowers and like to burrow to sleep. Cold hard floors and a blanket don't simulate that. 

Our jobs as animal keepers is to provide the best possible solution for them. That means providing adequate temps and simulated environments. Sure, Canada is cold as balls. I get that. Our summers in South Dakota are a little warmer, but our winters have a colder average temp than most of BC too. 

What I'm saying is that just because it is the best you want to offer doesn't mean it is what the tort deserves.




Wewt said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > Wewt said:
> ...



I would guess It is more of an issue that the vets just don't know better. If they don't treat a lot of large tortoises and are very current with their care, most vets only are able to find the obvious in your face problems and treatments.


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## laney (Jul 29, 2013)

Your tort seems happy, well adapted and loved. I too live in a climate that isn't ideal for outdoor living and take my torts to parks on nice days. I think in an ideal world we would all have huge, warm ideal acres of land for our torts but until we do we just have to do our very best for them, which you are.
He is so clearly a part of your family and I love that.


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## gieseygirly (Jul 29, 2013)

lindseyjordan10 said:


> I think the way your raising your sulcata is amazing!!! So cool!! You are doing the best you can and if he's healthy and happy then that's all that matters. People are way too quick to judge on here. I think it's great the way you have it set up.



I agree with lindseyjordan10, especially the quick to judge part. I think you are doing the best you can in your given situation.


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## Wewt (Jul 29, 2013)

Jd3 said:


> I actually pretty clearly stated in the post you quotes that zoos that offer nothing more than bars and a cement cage are crap.
> 
> Funny you should compare this to keeping polar bears or penguins in improper homes. That is what I thought of when I saw it.
> 
> ...





Even the best of the best zoos cannot provide snow year round! World-renown zoos like the San Diego zoo have their polar bears in a simulated environment where they have everything they could ever want, minus snow. Not a big deal. They are happy, healthy, etc. 

Alright, you deal with the cold. How have you solved this problem for your Sulcata? I don't see any solutions coming from you, just your opinions and bashings. Not helpful in the slightest. 

Again, the floor is not COLD. Again, he sleeps on a big soft blanket on a warming pad. You ignore all of this in order to continue to be angry. Hilariously immature of you. You also ignore that he had access to as much digging space as he could have wanted-- OPEN FLOWER BEDS -- and chose not to dig. When he was tired he'd toodle over to the door and sit there waiting for my mom to bring him in, and then she would set him in the hall way and he would toodle to his room she had set up, find his blanket, and then nuzzle into it. Obviously, if he so craved digging he would have made himself a burrow and slept in it instead of opting for his blanket in the house. 

I agree that our jobs are to find the best possible solution for them. I feel that I have. The only thing that has been recommended to me in this thread is to add a kiddie pool with substrate for him to play in, which I will find a way to do and make it happen. What have you brought to the table? Nothing.

If my vet didn't know, how was I supposed to know? The issue of him being stunted is news to me. I say it again: it began BEFORE I had him, and simply continued. This is akin to someone raising a Sulcata hatchling in the old methods and then discovering, 10 years later, that a hot and humid environment was better.




laney said:


> Your tort seems happy, well adapted and loved. I too live in a climate that isn't ideal for outdoor living and take my torts to parks on nice days. I think in an ideal world we would all have huge, warm ideal acres of land for our torts but until we do we just have to do our very best for them, which you are.
> He is so clearly a part of your family and I love that.



Thank you, I really appreciate it. We all wish for our torts to have the big back yard and the perfect burrows, but most of us aren't lucky enough. We do what we can!



gieseygirly said:


> lindseyjordan10 said:
> 
> 
> > I think the way your raising your sulcata is amazing!!! So cool!! You are doing the best you can and if he's healthy and happy then that's all that matters. People are way too quick to judge on here. I think it's great the way you have it set up.
> ...



Thanks! He's healthy, happy, and gets to run around and explore new areas outside every day. Tortoises in big outdoor enclosures don't even get that.


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## IBeenEasy (Jul 29, 2013)

Wewt said:


> Jd3 said:
> 
> 
> > Wewt said:
> ...





I ABSOLUTELY LOVE WHAT YOUR DOING HERE... YOUR BEING DIFFERENT AND UNIQUE...YOU LOVE YOUR TORT .. AND I BET IF YOU CAN ASK THE TORT HIM SELF..HE WOULD SAY HE WOULD RATHER BE ON A DOG BED AND HAVE THE FREEDOM OF THE HOUSE..THEN BE LEFT ON A LITTLE TABLE OR TUBBA WEAR BOX WITH SOME DIRT..I CAN GUARANTEE THAT...TORTS NEED THAT WALKING SPACE...YEA I KNOW TORTS LIKE TO BURROW AND THEY NEED SUBSTRATE...BUT HELLO PEOPLE....WE HAVE BEEN CAPTIVE BREEDING THESE ANIMALS FOR A REASON..I COULD UNDERSTAND THIS BEING REALLY WRONG FOR A WILD ANIMAL...BUT THE TORT IS OBV CAPTIVE BRED..AND IF HES NOT HES BEEN AROUND PEOPLE SINCE BEFORE HE CAN REMEMBER AND HE LOOKS HAPPY..I WISH MORE PEOPLE WOULD DEDICATE THE TIME TO THEIR ANIMALS TO TRAIN THEM TO BE COMFORTABLE IN THE HOUSE AND AROUND PEOPLE..THERE MILLIONS OF TORTS RIGHT NOW THAT ARE STUFFED IN A DIRTY LITTLE SHOE BOX..THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WE SHOULD BE DEBATING.(( AND SORRY FOR THE CAPS..IM NOT YELLING..IM JUST ON MY WORK COMP AND THERES ONLY CAPS LOL))


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## Jd3 (Jul 29, 2013)

If your ambient temp is 70 degrees it is cold for HIM. He is cold blooded. That is one of the big parts you're missing. If your floor isn't heated and the room is 70 all the time, he really does have a small tiny microclimate to stay warm on. 

You did not evolve a tortoise that loves in cooler areas. It is a large part of why he is so small. 

He might have chose not to dig during his 1 month of outdoor life. That doesn't mean we should choose for him to not have anything remotely natural for him....


The San Diego zoo keeps polar bears in chilled water and offers indoor sanctuary. They get water and rocks and toys to interact with. 

Keeping a giant tortoise on a hard floor in a cool environment Is a lot more like this than the Sam Diego zoo keeping polar bears in a state of the art enclosure. http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/zoos-good-or-bad-3.jpg


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## Cowboy_Ken (Jul 29, 2013)

I'm sorry .I was misled by the title of your thread. My mistake.


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## Jd3 (Jul 29, 2013)

Also, comparing an outdoor enclosure with a dog igloo to an apartment floor with a dog bed is sort of like comparing Ferrari to a pinto. Both have wheels right?




Cowboy_Ken said:


> I'm sorry .I was misled by the title of your thread. My mistake.



"Enclosure" in quotes was right...




I'm not sure why people want to commend this on being so "dedicated". If it was a nice appropriate enclosure that was 70 degrees it would still be too cold. It doesn't matter what the enclosure is if you're not meeting the basic requirements. Dedication and commitment to keeping the tort in conditions not suitable doesn't make it honorable. 

Having done such extensive research I'm surprised yesterday is the first time you ever thought that 70 degrees Fahrenheit was too cool. I have a hard time finding something that doesn't suggest a warmer temp.

You're unwilling to concede that this isn't what is best for the animal. Finding suitable housing is what should be in the agenda. If that means you can't house it them so be it. 

I want to have another kid. I can't afford to heat the bedroom hell sleep in though so he will have to adapt. He won't know Ny better though because he won't ever experience anything different, so it is ok. Right? I think I can adapt him to eat only Cheerios. Again. Since he won't ever know a proper diet it isn't a big deal. I'm doing the best I can. I can't afford to heat the space and I can't afford to feed. Him better. At least he's not living with those dirty people down the street. They would keep him outside and then he'd be even colder. I'm committed to it though, so I deserve credit for that.


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## MildredsMommy (Jul 29, 2013)

Let me start off by saying I am by no means an expert-that is why I love this site. So this is only my two cents. I can clearly see that Wewt truely loves her tortoise. I don't think anyone really debates THAT issue. I was a bit dismayed to see a few posts that people on this forum are "quick to judge" and "rude". I have personally never experienced that from ANY member-in fact, I have had the opposite-and I have asked some DUMB questions-trust that-and actually a lot of the long time posters here helped save my RF Jerry Lee's life. Here is my thought: I have to agree with JD3 as far as the available care goes-it just isnt good for the tortoise. And to cut to the chase, (in case anyone asks) I personally think zoos are inhumane-I am an animal rights advocate, and I do not think Sea World or dancing bears or keeping Polar Bears in AZ is in ANY way mindful of the needs of animals-its all about $$$. But I digress. I live in Texas. I have about 1/2 an acre for a backyard. its a nice even temp here year around.(for the most part) I have always wanted a Sulcatta and have had ample opprotunities to buy/adopt one, but I am simply not equipped to handle that type of tortoise's needs. For that matter, I would love to have a mini goat as well, but I have to think about the fact that while I would love it to bits, provide it wonderful vet care, and play with it as much as possible-at the end of the day its just not good for the goat. I think the point some people are trying to make is that it is obvious you love the tortoise and have gone out of your way to try to adapt your lifestyle for him-but unfortuatley, HIS life style should not be adapted to yours. I by no means encourage anyone to give up an animal, but in this case, for the good of the tortoise, you would see if someone from a sanctuary or in another part of the country might adopt him so he can enjoy his life the way nature intended. AGAIN...just my two cents.


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## Wewt (Jul 29, 2013)

IBeenEasy said:


> I ABSOLUTELY LOVE WHAT YOUR DOING HERE... YOUR BEING DIFFERENT AND UNIQUE...YOU LOVE YOUR TORT .. AND I BET IF YOU CAN ASK THE TORT HIM SELF..HE WOULD SAY HE WOULD RATHER BE ON A DOG BED AND HAVE THE FREEDOM OF THE HOUSE..THEN BE LEFT ON A LITTLE TABLE OR TUBBA WEAR BOX WITH SOME DIRT..I CAN GUARANTEE THAT...TORTS NEED THAT WALKING SPACE...YEA I KNOW TORTS LIKE TO BURROW AND THEY NEED SUBSTRATE...BUT HELLO PEOPLE....WE HAVE BEEN CAPTIVE BREEDING THESE ANIMALS FOR A REASON..I COULD UNDERSTAND THIS BEING REALLY WRONG FOR A WILD ANIMAL...BUT THE TORT IS OBV CAPTIVE BRED..AND IF HES NOT HES BEEN AROUND PEOPLE SINCE BEFORE HE CAN REMEMBER AND HE LOOKS HAPPY..I WISH MORE PEOPLE WOULD DEDICATE THE TIME TO THEIR ANIMALS TO TRAIN THEM TO BE COMFORTABLE IN THE HOUSE AND AROUND PEOPLE..THERE MILLIONS OF TORTS RIGHT NOW THAT ARE STUFFED IN A DIRTY LITTLE SHOE BOX..THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WE SHOULD BE DEBATING.(( AND SORRY FOR THE CAPS..IM NOT YELLING..IM JUST ON MY WORK COMP AND THERES ONLY CAPS LOL))



Thank you! Glad you see the benefits of the way I am keeping my tortoise. Like you said, and like I pointed out earlier, different isn't necessarily bad! I knew that I would receive some flack from the people here because they are all so particular with their pets and have likely never seen a tortoise living as mine does. The natural thing to do is recoil and assume my tortoise is unhappy, unhealthy, and improperly cared for. 

In reality, my tortoise has a lot of things most other tortoises don't. Like you said, he gets a huge space to wander around in on a day-to-day basis, plus he gets 6 day a week, 2-4 hours at a time in a big field or a park where he can walk in a straight line as long as he wants. No matter how big or awesome your outdoor "natural" enclosure is, you are unlikely to be able to provide that for your tortoise. I can. I don't have a burrow, but I am closer to meeting this need of my Sulcata than most people are. 

My method is good in some ways, bad in others. It's a lot of work, but I get many many benefits that others don't. 

Positives to living with your tort: 
- You get to hear their cute sleeping nose whistle while you are reading on your couch. 
- You get to toss scrap veggies from your supper on the floor and have it be magically cleaned up. 
- You get to lay down on the floor and have your tort climb on your legs all day if you want to. 
- You get to take your tortoise to other people's houses, out in public, etc. and have him be 100% comfortable being petted by five little kids all at once without being stressed. 
- My tortoise doesn't even flinch when you go to pet him or pick him up. 
- Oh, and you get to hear every single wet fart your little heart desires. <3 

I love my tort.


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## KimC90 (Jul 29, 2013)

I think this is great that youve adapted your home for your tortoise. Everyone has different ideas of how they should be raised but youre very correct, aside from shipping them back to their homeland, do the best you can. There is an obvious difference in having your tortoise sitting in a tiny little box with no lighting, feeding petstore pebble food and giving your tortoise the best life possibly since it doesnt live in its homeland. 
I had recently posted my guys new tank after hours of work on it and I was so proud of his new home but I was instantly told everything bad. I spent my weekend feeling horrible for my little guy and wondering if I should just give him up. Thank you for your post, it helps remind me that I can still give my little dino the best I can and make sure he stays healthy until we can upgrade to a house and I dont need an african savannah to be a responsible tortoise owner


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## klinej50 (Jul 29, 2013)

I don't have a sully but I've read someone turned their garage Into a indoor outside. They put a tarp down and a bunch of soil, plants, also had a warm hide.


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## Wewt (Jul 29, 2013)

klinej50 said:


> I don't have a sully but I've read someone turned their garage Into a indoor outside. They put a tarp down and a bunch of soil, plants, also had a warm hide.



I'd do that if I owned the place I live in. Unfortunately, I don't, and I really don't think the land lady would appreciate a whole bunch of dirt in her garage.  

I'd like to have big lights hanging from the ceiling in there and actually grow grass inside. That would be so cool!


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## klinej50 (Jul 29, 2013)

I have grass growing inside my leopard tortoises indoor enclosure. I put a seed mix in there I didn't think it would grow but to my surprise it actually grew a lot!


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## Wewt (Jul 29, 2013)

klinej50 said:


> I have grass growing inside my leopard tortoises indoor enclosure. I put a seed mix in there I didn't think it would grow but to my surprise it actually grew a lot!



That's so awesome! Lucky torts you have there!

If I were to plant an indoor grass I'd have to be super careful with it. My sully is large and can rip grass right out from the roots, especially if it hasn't developed the proper root structure. I read that this is bad, especially with commercial seeds, because of various fertilizers and chemicals. That's why I can't let him in the back yard, unfortunately. Just re-seeded!


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## klinej50 (Jul 29, 2013)

Oh my torts are very small[SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES] and they don't know how lucky they are because I can't get them to eat any grass


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## Wewt (Jul 29, 2013)

klinej50 said:


> Oh my torts are very small[SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES] and they don't know how lucky they are because I can't get them to eat any grass



haha! Well I'm sure they like being towered by the greenery anyways!


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## ra94131 (Jul 29, 2013)

I think something multiple people in this thread need to keep in mind is that tortoises are not human. Overly anthropomorphizing them and projecting your own desires on them is detrimental to their best interests.

Quite frankly, a tortoise could care less if you love it. It could care less if it has company (aside from reproduction). It does not like being handled or being transported. It wants food, shelter, and ideal environmental conditions. If you provide those things, the tortoise will be some approximation of "happy".

Sometimes I think tortoises suffer for being such hardy animals. They can exist outside of their ideal conditions for much longer than most animals and far too often people take this as validation rather than changing things.

If you're looking for emotional connection, get a dog. Reptiles just do not have that capacity.


(I do not intend this to single out the OP, who does seem sincere in her desire to improve the life of her tortoise. These are things everyone should keep in mind.)


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## Wewt (Jul 29, 2013)

ra94131 said:


> I think something multiple people in this thread need to keep in mind is that tortoises are not human. Overly anthropomorphizing them and projecting your own desires on them is detrimental to their best interests.
> 
> Quite frankly, a tortoise could care less if you love it. It could care less if it has company (aside from reproduction). It does not like being handled or being transported. It wants food, shelter, and ideal environmental conditions. If you provide those things, the tortoise will be some approximation of "happy".
> 
> ...




Maybe you are right. Maybe you aren't. I feel that my tortoise, in his own way, loves me and recognizes me. I have several stories that may or may not prove my point, depending on your perspective. 

Of course, he would be happy on a three acre enclosure with a big dirt tunnel. I can't give that to him, but I can do my best to give him absolutely everything else. 

The only way to give a tortoise exactly what it wants would be to return it to Africa. It's selfish of me not to do this, as it is selfish of every single tortoise or exotic animal owner. 

A fantastic member sent me a PM with a great idea to make an indoor burrow. Let's just say that I know what my first paycheque at my new job is going to!

Here is a video of my tort getting a head rub-- he loves them!


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## mchong9606 (Jul 29, 2013)

I'll chime in here one last time. We could all argue what's in the best interest of our animals, who's doing it right and who's doing it wrong. Maybe her sully feels loved maybe her sully could care less. Some members I get the feeling are down right opposed to anything but perfection. Keeping torts in any enclosure is far from perfection but nonetheless we do it. I would hope that we could all agree that the animals that suffer a slow agonizing death in filthy conditions is the bigger fish to fry. We see it all the time in Craigslist and other ads. Do we raise our eyebrows as much as some do with this post? 
Keep up the good work, I think your sully is a happy and lucky tort. 

Sent from my SGH-I317M using TortForum mobile app


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## WalterSulcata (Jul 29, 2013)

Wow, an interesting posting. As I read all the post I see the issues back and forth so I am just going to make some suggestions for solutions and bypass the whoâ€™s right , whoâ€™s wrong argument. I like to think in terms of algorithms. First and most important question, do I keep the tort in as ideal conditions as I can possibly provide, or do I sell, give him to someone in a better climate. 
I do know that if someone offered me a penguin, Iâ€™d probably turn down the offer as I donâ€™t want to pay to keep my garage an ice shelf, but that is what it takes, and the same applies here. So assuming you are keeping the tort, as you obviously are and love him. Then work a deal, pay the extra money, deposit, or whatever it takes to work with your landlord and allow some mods in your garage. Basically not owning the house / condo is probably your biggest problem area, as you canâ€™t make changes you may want . 
I think you can make your entire garage a suitable habitat, sacrificing the garage for the tort, meaning you canâ€™t use it for cars, lawnmowers ,snowblowers etc. etc. You can have yards of clean dirt put in there, add some rocks. Use the blue grow lights to grow plants, grass patches. Use the metal half trash can buried on its side in 2-3 ft of a dirt pile for a burrow. Add the kiddie pool for a little water lake, with the dirt and rocks surrounding it with plants. Install the portable infrared space heaters that heat the floor and you can direct them accordingly. Have the sun, UV and CHE lights drop down from the garage ceiling , using as many as you need for the space, and you can adjust the height above ground with the cords to maintain near perfect stable temps. Put insulation board around the inside of any drafty or cold areas of the garage. This can easily be removed when needed. You can still have your tort cruise inside your house as he likes / you want, ( doggy / tortoise door ) but that would be his primary habitat, and he would probably love it. The possibilities are endless and there is no excuse except that you have a landlord.
So my point is, work a deal with the landlord, nothing I suggested above is unremovable or damaging to the garage. Its actually much less damaging than letting the tort urinate on the hardwood floors I would think from the landlords point of view. So you need to sell it that way to the LL. With a hose and a truck you could have that habitat broken down and removed in 2 days with no residual evidence. I think that if you donâ€™t pursue this option, then In my opinion you are not doing everything possible that you can for your tort, living where you are. 

Good luck..


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## Millerlite (Jul 29, 2013)

Wewt said:


> Jd3 said:
> 
> 
> > Your landlord lets a tortoise pee and poop all over her townhouse... She isn't THAT particular. It sounds a lot more like YOU'RE particular and pretty set that this is going to work regardless of whether it is good for the tort or not.
> ...



Why not just build a enclosure that has will help you keep the area warm. Instead of heating your whole house all the time you just need to heat the enclosure. Also you won't have to clean poop and pee of the carpet which is never fun. Tortoises like most reptiles are best in a controller environment , they are cooled blooded so they are the same temp. As their environment? So when your all nice and cozy under blankets, his body is dropping to those low levels. Reptile specialist will def. help you maybe even show you what you can do to make this animals life a little better.


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## Wewt (Jul 29, 2013)

Millerlite said:


> Why not just build a enclosure that has will help you keep the area warm. Instead of heating your whole house all the time you just need to heat the enclosure. Also you won't have to clean poop and pee of the carpet which is never fun. Tortoises like most reptiles are best in a controller environment , they are cooled blooded so they are the same temp. As their environment? So when your all nice and cozy under blankets, his body is dropping to those low levels. Reptile specialist will def. help you maybe even show you what you can do to make this animals life a little better.



His area is plenty warm. It's possibly off by two degrees at the most, and that's only in the morning. I watched the temps close in the house today and it was DEFINITELY in range. In the winter we will probably have him set up in the garage because we can keep it warmer without the humans in my house being too uncomfortable. 

I only have hardwood floors in my house, haha! With a tortoise this is a must. There is never poop smeared or spread. If he is in the house, I am home, and sitting right in the livingroom. I catch him mid-poop and then promptly clean it up. 

When he sleeps his temp isn't dropping because he sleeps on a warm pad underneath with a big blankie surrounding him. The heat goes up, into the tort, out of the tort, and then is trapped in the blankie. Snuggly cocoon of warm and awesome. How do I know this? When I pick up my tort in the morning he is warm.


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## Team Gomberg (Jul 29, 2013)

Are you still using a meat thermometer to gauge the temps?

Heather
Sent from my Android TFO app


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## samsmom (Jul 29, 2013)

I was just wondering about something! If you clean your floors that often then wouldn't the chemicals you use be harmful for the tortoise?


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## Wewt (Jul 29, 2013)

samsmom said:


> Does that mean you just "clean" with plain water?




No. We have a floor steamer. It's like a super fancy mop. You put the water in there and it heats it up to the point of boiling and then forces it out of a pad at the end, which you clean your floors with. The steam is hot enough to kill bacteria. Super awesome for people who are against chemicals!


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## Team Gomberg (Jul 30, 2013)

Well Lindsey, 

Heat lamps are not needed in the wild because they have the sun.

Temperatures absolutely can mean life or death.

Trying point out the need for proper temps, proper substrate etc. were all tips on how to make things better for the tort.

Heather
Sent from my Android TFO app


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## lindseyjordan10 (Jul 30, 2013)

No one said she was 100% correct on how she is taking care of her tortoise. She was asking for help on how she could make it better for him, but everyone was just so angry because of there own opinions. Instead of giving suggestions people are giving criticism. And jd3 has done nothing but try and tear her apart and tell her everything she is doing wrong and even saying she has a mental illness. In my opinion that is taking it too far. You don't live in canada and you don't live in her condo. If you don't think she is properly taking care of him then give her suggestions without criticizing. I thought thats what everyone here was for. Everyone makes mistakes and she is clearly asking for help to fix what she can and she clearly loves her tortoise to death. Why does everyone act like she is abusing him


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## Sulcata_Sandy (Jul 30, 2013)

I keep Mo indoors (however while its summer, he spends hours and hours outside), because in Oregon winters are long, wet and very cold. I love the Condo!! Heck, ditch the tort and take care of ME!!!!! 

What I see here is someone who dearly loves her Tort making the most of her situation.
Not one of us offers true African sub-Sahara life, so we are all making some sort of habitat compromise. 

I'm researching every day (nerd alert!) for how to improve, better indoor housing ideas, etc etc. this has been an interesting (sadly a bit overly opinionated for my taste) thread.

As she said, her tort is not much of a digger. Since dirt or other organic substrate sounds out of the question do the landlord issues (understandable), how about something like shredded paper? We use shredded paper for our hospitalized kitties for litter. They generally take right to it and dig and scratch. Same with rodents. Clean and green!

I've been a veterinary technician for over 20 years, worked in 2 different emergency hospitals, and several family practices. Agreed that most DVMs know very little about reptiles and herps, however we are ALL taught basic animal husbandry and the understanding that in exotics, environment is key to health. We all have textbooks at arms reach to quickly reference and recall/relearn/review. 

I would bet money her DVM discussed with her a more natural environment would be idea, but that sounds out of the question at this time, so in lieu, she's provided the best she can and he is happy and healthy.

I applaud this urban housing! Above and beyond the call of duty with all things considered.
I think he's one lucky Tort. Spoiled rotten! 


Sandy in Oregon
.....................................................
Veterinary Technician, 21 years of critter luvin'
Schlomo aka "Mo" the rescue Sulcata, "man without a face"
Dexter and Lola (Basenjis...show dogs extraordinare)

No kids, no husband, just critters and I'm happy.
Sent from my iPad using TortForum mobile app


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## Wewt (Jul 30, 2013)

I want to thank all of the wonderful people who have supported me over the past few pages, and also the people who took the time to send a supportive PM-- very much appreciated. 

I'm not going to continue to argue because, frankly, I love my tortoise. My tortoise is very happy and healthy and has everything he needs. I constructed a burrow/hide on the main floor and am in the works of turning part of my garage into a tortoise play area with a substrate-box to play in. 

Today I took my little Doug to the field behind my house. He ate for about an hour and then we walked for an hour after that. He climbed up a hill, and then back down a hill, and then was greeted by three strangers who all stopped to tell me how marvellous he was and petted him on the head. 

If my house is dirty and full of bacteria, so be it. Anyone who has kids probably have the same thing going on. Yes, kids wear diapers. But they also spill stuff, vomit, and sometimes pee and poop on the floors. I think almost every parent has a story about when they caught their toddler smearing poop on something or another. My place is perfect for me and my tortoise, and it's nobody else's business. To the people who love how I look after my tort, you are more than welcome to join me for a tortoise picnic some day! xoxo! To the people who don't agree, that is your prerogative. I'm sure there are things you do with your torts that I wouldn't agree with, or that I would suggest should be changed, too. 

I checked the garage temps again (yes, with a meat thermometer, still don't get why that is so bad. If anything, everyone should check substrate and hide temps with it), and it is 25 degrees celcius in the evening, getting to about 27 mid-day. Perfect tortoise temps. I checked the temps at night and in the morning on the main floor, and it gets to about 21 degrees. I'll keep the thermometer in his hide with him tonight to see if he stays warm enough. If he doesn't, I'll set up a super comfy bed in the garage for him. I just like having my baby close at night. If you're quiet you can hear him breathing. 

Also, about me ruining my floors: I did this in the condo prior for two years straight, and the floors were perfect. The floors were messed up under the huge potted plant I had. Floors don't get ruined by the steamer unless you have it sit in the same spot for a few minutes on end. This is because the steam evaporates a few seconds after hitting the floor. It's basically a self-drying mop.


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## wellington (Aug 1, 2013)

Everyone has made their point. Keep it friendly and on point, but don't try beating your opinion, right or wrong into them. The op will either make the changes needed or not, but you cant beat it into them. All the needed info has been said more then once. Also, doesn't matter if the landlord knows anything. Also doesn't matter if the op cleans up poop and pee and steam cleans every day. 
Will be watching this thread and closing if need be. 
Thank you.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 1, 2013)

I just wanted to let everyone know that I am the one who split off quite a few (51 to be exact) argumentative posts from this thread. The OP has been able to get her idea across, and the dissenters were able to get their ideas across. I saw no reason to continue to beat this horse to death.

Some people keep their tortoises in the house. Some people allow the tortoise the run of the house. Some people keep their tortoises outside in pens. Some people allow the tortoise the run of the yard.

End of story.

Wewt: I'm sorry if any of us offended you. I hope you continue to read and post on the Forum. Everyone's opinion is welcomed here, and you have a different story to tell. Who is to say who is right and who is wrong.

(Wellington: I hope I didn't step on your toes. I know you were moderating this thread, but I thought it had gone on long enough)


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## Wewt (Aug 1, 2013)

Thanks for the support, Yvonne! 

Glad to say that I've got the temperatures all sorted out. When the house gets too cold, or I'm not at home, he goes to his playroom in the garage. I have big plans for the garage in a little while, once I have the cash for it. 

My little tort is perfect, healthy, happy, and loves sleeping in his new "burrow". And I don't get to miss anything! Not the tappity tap of his little feet on the floor, or his yawns, or his wet farts. I get to enjoy every little ounce of my tort.


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## Jd3 (Aug 2, 2013)

Let's be clear. A tort that is half the size it should be isn't "healthy".


You can say whatever you want sitting around the drum circle holding hands and singing kumbayah. That doesn't change that this tort is tiny for its age.


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## Wewt (Aug 2, 2013)

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-76194.html

Not according to them.


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## Sulcata_Sandy (Aug 2, 2013)

I think my sulcata is on the light side. He's not too much smaller than the one in that link and he's only 5 lbs.

I've only had him 3 weeks, he's just now starting to show an appetite, and I'm still figuring out what he likes. He's unable to get most things in his mouth, so I'm learning just how to chop of the greens for him. Chopped too fine...he won't touch, too coarse...can't eat.

I'm going to weight him Monday and check. 


Sandy in Oregon
.....................................................
Veterinary Technician, 21 years of critter luvin'
Schlomo aka "Mo" the rescue Sulcata, "man without a face"
"Larry" the Golden Greek..adopted
Dexter and Lola (Basenjis...show dogs extraordinare)

No kids, no husband, just critters and I'm happy.
Sent from my iPad using TortForum mobile app


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## Wewt (Aug 2, 2013)

SenjiSandy said:


> I think my sulcata is on the light side. He's not too much smaller than the one in that link and he's only 5 lbs.
> 
> I've only had him 3 weeks, he's just now starting to show an appetite, and I'm still figuring out what he likes. He's unable to get most things in his mouth, so I'm learning just how to chop of the greens for him. Chopped too fine...he won't touch, too coarse...can't eat.
> 
> ...




It's crazy how much their weight can fluctuate. Some days I pick him up and am surprised by how heavy he is. Other days, not so much. 

Sounds like your tort is a picky eater! Glad he has a patient mama!


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## TJ1999 (Aug 2, 2013)

Wewt said:


> ra94131 said:
> 
> 
> > I really don't think anyone has been particularly rude. Expressing disagreement does not have to be rude and I believe the OP aknowledged herself that her methods are controversial. Discussing them in a reasonable manner seems to be the natural course of action and the only way to share/refine ideas.
> ...


A video of that would be so adorable! [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES] I support your way of raising your tort because I think it sounds like a load of fun.


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## Sulcata_Sandy (Aug 2, 2013)

Wewt, not sure he's necessarily picky as he just can't functionally eat bigger items. He is the one missing half his face. :-/

I love my freaky, deformed Mo.





Sandy in Oregon
.....................................................
Veterinary Technician, 21 years of critter luvin'
Schlomo aka "Mo" the rescue Sulcata, "man without a face"
"Larry" the Golden Greek..adopted
Dexter and Lola (Basenjis...show dogs extraordinare)

No kids, no husband, just critters and I'm happy.
Sent from my iPad using TortForum mobile app


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## Saleama (Aug 2, 2013)

Baby turtles and tortoises have an extremely high mortality rate in the wild. They can never be certain to find adequate food or water. They are constantly looking over their shoulders. They borrow to regulate their body temperature. This tortoise is getting food, although I must say it sounds like much of the wrong kind and you should look into that, it is getting love and it has a safe place to be each and every night. There is no question that there could be improvements to the habitat. In fact, I have NEVER seen anyone post on here that did not think there could be improvements to their tortoise's habitat, even the guys everyone leans on for answers to their burning questions. Like Tom said, it could be better but it also could be way worse.

All of my babies are with me under the known fact that they will not stay with me if I do not make sure I can provide a better place for them when they get big, and big they will get! I made sure I had several options available before I began to rescue or purchase them. I have spent $500 this week alone to rescue 7 box turtles, all of which have perm homes to go to when I know they are well enough to go to them. Make sure you love your little guy enough to know when he might need that option as well is all I'm saying.

Snuggling in his blanket sounds to me like he is exactly able to mimic his need to borrow. Millions of years of evolution aside, burrowing is burrowing. I do not provide my guys with soil from their native land. They get moist coconut coir and they love it. Incidently, only one of my four Sulcies actually digs, the others just flop down under the night lamp or in ther hut.

I think all of the people on here speak out of love for the animals and you have to give them that. Nobody is judging to be cruel. Quite the oposite actually. I also think that these animals are quite a bit more intelligent than we give them credit for and quite a bit more adaptive as well. Go on youtube and you will find many videos of inside torts. There are tons of them that have been taught to use doggy doors and they come inside and go outside as they please.

To close, I have an ancient three toed box turtle I rescued from a bird cage. he has a nice tub full of damp, comfy substrate, a pool and plenty of food including a tray of fruit and greens and super worms to hunt, yet every night at lights out, he is restless. I started letting him walk around the apartment and he found a nice corner and promptly fell into a deep sleep. He loves it there. I don't know why but I do know that i feel better and aparently, so does he, when he noses into his corner and falls asleep.

To each his own. As long as you know that if this arrangement becomes bad for your guy you need to give him to a better one then I say go for it!


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## Wewt (Aug 3, 2013)

TJ1999 said:


> A video of that would be so adorable! [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES] I support your way of raising your tort because I think it sounds like a load of fun.



It is super cute! I think if you go through the last couple of pages there was videos of him toodling around, being a little weirdo. I might post another video. In the last condo he learned how to open up the big glass sliding door to get inside. 




SenjiSandy said:


> Wewt, not sure he's necessarily picky as he just can't functionally eat bigger items. He is the one missing half his face. :-/
> 
> I love my freaky, deformed Mo.
> 
> ...



Awe, glad he has a really good mom to look after him! 



Saleama said:


> Baby turtles and tortoises have an extremely high mortality rate in the wild. They can never be certain to find adequate food or water. They are constantly looking over their shoulders. They borrow to regulate their body temperature. This tortoise is getting food, although I must say it sounds like much of the wrong kind and you should look into that, it is getting love and it has a safe place to be each and every night. There is no question that there could be improvements to the habitat. In fact, I have NEVER seen anyone post on here that did not think there could be improvements to their tortoise's habitat, even the guys everyone leans on for answers to their burning questions. Like Tom said, it could be better but it also could be way worse.
> 
> All of my babies are with me under the known fact that they will not stay with me if I do not make sure I can provide a better place for them when they get big, and big they will get! I made sure I had several options available before I began to rescue or purchase them. I have spent $500 this week alone to rescue 7 box turtles, all of which have perm homes to go to when I know they are well enough to go to them. Make sure you love your little guy enough to know when he might need that option as well is all I'm saying.
> 
> ...



As far as I know he is getting all of the right kinds of food. I've learned of Mazuri recently and would like to get him some. But other than that, plenty of fresh grazing and hay for him to eat, with the occasional carrot or veggie as a treat. 

So awesome of you to adopt tortoises like that and care about where they are going. I wish more people were that caring about where their tortoises ended up. It's not fair that my little guy's been to at least three homes already in his short life. Don't worry, we will have a yard in about five years' time, right when he gets super big, and he will have complete run of the yard as well as the house. 

Your tortoise sleeping on the floor is so cute! They find a special area they like... doesn't always make sense where they choose to sleep. I agree that we underestimate their intelligence and adaptability. After all, they have managed to survive past most other species'.


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