# why basking spot 115 degrees?



## onarock (Mar 14, 2011)

What does 110+ degrees of basking do for your tortoise other than dry it out? It seems to me that we are cooking our tortoises... destroying the keratin and causing pyramiding and thus the need for 85%+ humidity levels in a attempt to level it out. This idea of extreme temp allong with extreme humidity is like turning the hot and cold water handles on your sink on full blast in order to get WARM water. The recommendation that we give our tortoises MID-DAY sun for 8-12 hours a day just doesnt make sense. I keep all my tortoses outside 356 days a year including nights and none of them (including my 10 month old culcatas) subject themselves to the mid-day sun. Besides that, it never gets above 95 degrees here. 

Temp is temp regardless of the source. I understand that there are different ways of providing heat and some are better for you or your torts than others, but 80 is 80. Are you saying that you provide 120 degrees of MVB because it more simulates the sun rays or that you get that much more UV penetration? 



DeanS said:


> Your basking spot needs to be in the 100s...at least. I keep mine around 120. Of course, now that they're back outside most of the day...the point is moot! I'll take 75 - 80 degrees of sunlight over 120 degrees of MVB any day!


----------



## DeanS (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*



onarock said:


> Are you saying that you provide 120 degrees of MVB because it more simulates the sun rays or that you get that much more UV penetration?



Yes to Both! That's precisely what I'm saying! I consider CA, AZ and FL the BEST places in the lower 48 to raise sulcatas or leopards...but we need a little assistance! There is no comparison to the conditions you get in PARADISE! 

BTW! If anyone needs a 100W Powersun, I have a spare! I'll ship it to you for $25! Just send me a PM!


----------



## onarock (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*

Jessdawn. I would caution to the side of DeanS. Like I said I dont keep them inside. I was just hoping to get an answer to a question I have asked in the past (still without an answer). Dean has the indoor experience that I do not and he has proven to raise some darn healthy sulcatas.

Neal also makes some good points.



Jessadawn said:


> Lol. Ok, so I am just going to stick with the 96 degrees basking temp and lower 70's for Kali's hide. She seems to be comfortable with these temps. If anyone disagrees feel free to explain! Thanks for all if your help!!


----------



## John (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*

here's my two cents,first let me say i am not an expert nor am i trying too promote anything i'm just gonna put this out there for you all too chew on. why is it that in every place on the planet ALL animals do what ever they can too avoid extreme conditions i.e 120 degree weather or extreme cold weather?these conditions happen they are not within the animals control even desert dwellers need too escape,just because they can survive these conditions does not mean they require them too thrive.if something drastic happens in an animals enviroment climate wise the species may either die out or evolve too meet the change.why does a sidewinder move the way it does?because the sand is darn hot.the sand is not that hot so the snake can survive the snake has found a way to overcome an extreme.so if you are keeping your torts at an extreme are they thriving,surviving or trying too evolve? thanks john


----------



## DeanS (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*

The fact of the matter is that I was doing what Tom was doing before I found this site! We both seem to be getting the same results...therefore I see no reason for anyone to do anything but follow this thread...arguably the most important thread on this forum! All questions asked!

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-How-To-Raise-Sulcata-Hatchlings-and-Babies#axzz1GXFfXICR

And for God's sake...please don't encourage dry hides...the ONLY pyramiding should appear in Cambodia, Egypt and Mexico!


----------



## Neal (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*



DeanS said:


> And for God's sake...please don't encourage dry hides...the ONLY pyramiding should appear in Cambodia, Egypt and Mexico!



I don't tell people new to the hobby to completley rearrange their set up all in one post, you take baby steps. When I make suggestions I start with the temperatures, then move on to humidity. BTW: I have had experience with raising smooth healthy tortoises on dry substrate and dry hides, so I WILL encourage it if I feel so inclined, which I don't think anyone did in this case.


----------



## ChiKat (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*



onarock said:


> What does 110+ degrees of basking do for your tortoise other than dry it out? It seems to me that we are cooking our tortoises... destroying the keratin and causing pyramiding and thus the need for 85%+ humidity levels in a attempt to level it out.



Very interesting!!


----------



## DeanS (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*



Neal said:


> DeanS said:
> 
> 
> > And for God's sake...please don't encourage dry hides...the ONLY pyramiding should appear in Cambodia, Egypt and Mexico!
> ...



Again! See Tom's *Thriving vs Surviving* Thread! I have not seen a tortoise yet that was raised dry that didn't exhibit some pyramiding!


----------



## onarock (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*

But, not all questions answered. I still want to know what 110+ degree basking spots do for tortoises. John (squamata) statements are for the most part true. Weather I live in Paradise or not does not diminish the fact theat it rarely gets above 95 degrees here and my tortoses thrive, not survive, but thrive. According to you and the care sheet, I should be providing additional heating outside for my tortoises. I'm thinking of hanging a 200w basking lamp from a pole in my backyard. Untill someone can tell me the benefits of such high basking temps I am going to assume that the recommendations from you and others who promote these extreme conditions are the sum results of those who are either very "green" at keeping tortoises or just don't understand them at all. It seems to me that the constant soaking and spraying and extremely high humidity% are only necessary at that level to combat the extreme stress put on the tortoses shell at 110+ basking. In my 20+ years of tortoise keeping and breeding I have never seen a tortoise take advantage of the extreme conditions that you put your tortoises through. 



DeanS said:


> All questions asked!


----------



## DeanS (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*



ChiKat said:


> onarock said:
> 
> 
> > What does 110+ degrees of basking do for your tortoise other than dry it out? It seems to me that we are cooking our tortoises... destroying the keratin and causing pyramiding and thus the need for 85%+ humidity levels in a attempt to level it out.
> ...




You need BOTH! High temps and dry conditions are not going to promote optimum growth/health! Likewise, med-high temps and high humidity are going to promote questionable health! You NEED high temps AND high humiidty to ENSURE a perfectly healthy animal.


----------



## onarock (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*

So, your saying tortoises that exhibit some forms of pyramiding arent thriving? That is laughable. I have 8 platynota two are pyramid all have been kept the same. They dont act any different than the others and all appear to be thriving. But, hey, what do I know.



DeanS said:


> Neal said:
> 
> 
> > DeanS said:
> ...


----------



## DeanS (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*



Neal said:


> I don't tell people new to the hobby to completley rearrange their set up all in one post, you take baby steps.
> 
> BTW: I have had experience with raising smooth healthy tortoises on dry substrate and dry hides, so I WILL encourage it if I feel so inclined, which I don't think anyone did in this case.




Why take baby steps? If they're new to the hobby (or not), they need ALL the facts laid out in front of them NOW!

I'd like to see these smooth, dry tortoises! I can't recall one EVER being mentioned here.


----------



## Neal (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*

I don't have all the tortoises I was refering to anymore which is why you have never seen it mentioned here before. I do have one and I will get pictures as soon as I can. The whole humidity thing in my mind is debateable, just because you havn't seen or heard of a tortoise raised dry and smooth doesn't mean it's not possible.

You're experienced Dean, you foget what it's like to be new to the hobby. The correlation between high humidity and temperatures is critical, and can be difficult to figure out in some cases. If you havn't established with someone the adaquate temperature range, why would you suggest high humidity in the same breath? Low temps and high humidity are dangerous. There's more than enough information on humidity on this forum, I didn't feel it necessary to explain the importance of it in my post.



DeanS said:


> Neal said:
> 
> 
> > I don't tell people new to the hobby to completley rearrange their set up all in one post, you take baby steps.
> ...


----------



## onarock (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*

I am going to take your inability to answer my question regarding 110+ basking as a sign that you just dont know. When you get a logical answer pease tell us we cant wait to hear



DeanS said:


> ChiKat said:
> 
> 
> > onarock said:
> ...


----------



## John (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*



DeanS said:


> Neal said:
> 
> 
> > I don't tell people new to the hobby to completley rearrange their set up all in one post, you take baby steps.
> ...


so where excactly have you published all these facts?other than a public forum.where is the scientific evidence,where did you get yor herp degree?how long have you studied these animals in their natural enviornment. in order for me too except something as fact i need more then two guys word on a public forum.


----------



## onarock (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*

Please Dean tell us these facts. What is the relationship between heat and humidity? For every degree of heat how much humidity do you need to provide to ensure a smooth shell. Quit beating around the bush and tell us your formula




DeanS said:


> Neal said:
> 
> 
> > I don't tell people new to the hobby to completley rearrange their set up all in one post, you take baby steps.
> ...


----------



## John (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*



DeanS said:


> The fact of the matter is that I was doing what Tom was doing before I found this site! We both seem to be getting the same results...therefore I see no reason for anyone to do anything but follow this thread...arguably the most important thread on this forum! All questions asked!
> 
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-How-To-Raise-Sulcata-Hatchlings-and-Babies#axzz1GXFfXICR
> 
> And for God's sake...please don't encourage dry hides...the ONLY pyramiding should appear in Cambodia, Egypt and Mexico!


i've said it before and here itis again i respect tom's knowledge.that being said this whole thing is not his idea,it is an old idea taken too an extreme i am not convinced it needed too go too.i see no problem with 80-95 degree temps 50-60% humidity and a humid hide.which was all promoted by the fifes and others long ago.you guys are reinventing the wheel and trying too shove it down everyone's throats without any hard proven facts.(a dozen or so torts proves nothing if you don't believe that from me try too publish your work let me know what they say when you present your findings i'm very interested.


----------



## Yvonne G (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*

I'm not a scientist, nor do I play one on TV, but my 2cents on this subject is:

I like my indoor habitats to be upwards of 80 degrees for my babies. They are in a Christmas tree storage bin. Its big. and open. If I want the whole habitat to be warm enough, then I have to have the basking spot be 105 degrees or so. The babies don't use that particular spot, but it does manage to keep the rest of the floor of the habitat in the 80's. If I raised the light so it was 80 under the light, then the rest of the habitat would be too cool.


----------



## DeanS (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*

80 - 95 degrees overall is fine! I said they need a basking spot of 100-120! They come from the Sahara! Sometimes the Sahara doesn't get rain for a decade. Babies spend most of their early years in burrows that retain humidity from root systems, urates, feces...you name it! Why do I have to be published?!? I've worked with animals for more than 35 years. I've worked in reptile facilities! I've worked in zoos! I apologize if you think I'm 'cramming' anything down your throat! In captivity, dry conditions create pyramiding. You can offer the right food, but if conditions aren't right, you're going to get pyramiding! I, for one, don't need information spooned to me like a baby taking his first bite! Give it to me all at once. This is the problem some of you have with Tom and myself (and a few others). Fife set the wheels in motion and Tom and I took it to the next level. Sorry if you were too apprehensive not to take the next logical step. Science is ALL about experimentation. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, has studied sulcata hatchlings in their natural environment. It's a good degree of guesswork! Some of us got it and some of you didn't! Don't sit there and criticize because you don't agree out of stubbornness or because what I said hurt your pride! Try it for yourtselves. Think outside of the box for a change. Just because your hatchlings are surviving, doesn't mean they're thriving! EXPERIMENT! Take one or two of your hatchlings and raise them the way Tom and I do! See what happens! Good luck!


----------



## onarock (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*

Finally someone who knows what hatchlings do in the wild. When did you go to the Sahara? Must have been a really fun trip to go and study these animals in the wild. Can you share with us the pics of the babies in the burrows? I would love to see them. I don't think you need to apologize for cramming stuff down our throats, I think you need to apologize for the mis-information that your providing. No you didnt take it to the next level, you took it to the next extreme! You still have not answered any of my questions. You can list all the facilitys and Zoos you have worked at, but it all means Zero. You first stated that nobody and you mean nobody has studied sulcata hatchlings in their natural environment and then you go on to tell us how how they spend their early years. You Just Loss All Credibility!! You Dont Know Why Your Doing What Your Doing and you cant answer anyones, especially my questions. You Dont Know How The Method Works. You Are Dangerous!!



DeanS said:


> 80 - 95 degrees overall is fine! I said they need a basking spot of 100-120! They come from the Sahara! Sometimes the Sahara doesn't get rain for a decade. Babies spend most of their early years in burrows that retain humidity from root systems, urates, feces...you name it! Why do I have to be published?!? I've worked with animals for more than 35 years. I've worked in reptile facilities! I've worked in zoos! I apologize if you think I'm 'cramming' anything down your throat! In captivity, dry conditions create pyramiding. You can offer the right food, but if conditions aren't right, you're going to get pyramiding! I, for one, don't need information spooned to me like a baby taking his first bite! Give it to me all at once. This is the problem some of you have with Tom and myself (and a few others). Fife set the wheels in motion and Tom and I took it to the next level. Sorry if you were too apprehensive not to take the next logical step. Science is ALL about experimentation. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, has studied sulcata hatchlings in their natural environment. It's a good degree of guesswork! Some of us got it and some of you didn't! Don't sit there and criticize because you don't agree out of stubbornness or because what I said hurt your pride! Try it for yourtselves. Think outside of the box for a change. Just because your hatchlings are surviving, doesn't mean they're thriving! EXPERIMENT! Take one or two of your hatchlings and raise them the way Tom and I do! See what happens! Good luck!


----------



## Neal (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*



DeanS said:


> Babies spend most of their early years in burrows that retain humidity from root systems, urates, feces...you name it! ... In captivity, dry conditions create pyramiding. You can offer the right food, but if conditions aren't right, you're going to get pyramiding!



It should be pointed out that this is not proven, we don't know if that's true or not and shouldn't be presented as fact.


----------



## ChiKat (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*



DeanS said:


> I'd like to see these smooth, dry tortoises! I can't recall one EVER being mentioned here.



Kelly (stells) has some to share with you!
Nelson was not raised completely dry as I mist his carapace, but his hides have always been dry.


----------



## exoticsdr (Mar 14, 2011)

Not that I want to argue, and I don't....but, providing an basking spot of 100+ degree in an indoor enclosure and providing a temperature gradient with proper humidities in hides etc is a wise decision and it makes common sense. This basking area provides the tort with a spot to raise it's body temperature so it effectively digest it's food and maintain it's immune system function to fight disease.


----------



## onarock (Mar 14, 2011)

You got me scared Doc. It never gets above 95 where I live and actually 92 will make the news.. yes its that rare. I guess my tortoises arent properly digesting their food. I'm surprised they have lived this long. I am even more surprised that they lay as many eggs that they do as often as they do. What is the difference between outdoor and indoor heat? If its 80 outside and its 80 inside, I guess its actually 80 inside and 90 or 100 outside. I understand the whole temperature gradient thing, I still don't understand the benefits of 110 degrees. Common sense and experience has shown me that they are not active and out when it reaches those temps. I'm going to have to rethink this whole thing. Thanks Doc! 



exoticsdr said:


> Not that I want to argue, and I don't....but, providing an basking spot of 100+ degree in an indoor enclosure and providing a temperature gradient with proper humidities in hides etc is a wise decision and it makes common sense. This basking area provides the tort with a spot to raise it's body temperature so it effectively digest it's food and maintain it's immune system function to fight disease.


----------



## exoticsdr (Mar 14, 2011)

Love the sarcasm in your post...ads flavor to the conversation.

Ok, let's experiment. Take a rock and place it on the counter in your home for 48 hours and then measure the temp on the surface of the rock with a laser thermometer. I would guess that the temp will be extremely close to your room temp...thus proving you're right...room temp is room temp.

Now, take that same rock and place it outside in the sun on a day that is 90 degrees out and do the same measurement, I bet the rock is no longer 90 degrees. Tortoises will bask in the sunlight in order to digest their food and will bask in order to "run a fever" to fight off diseasse and it doesn't matter whether the ambient temp is 75 or 95, the basking temperatures achieved in the sun are going to be much higher because the body absorbs and radiates the heat back into the environment....so don't be scared.


----------



## Robert (Mar 14, 2011)

My 2 cents: just because a basking spot is 110+ degrees (for example) doesn't mean that the tortoise will remain in the spot until he/she reaches a temperature of 110+ degrees. By offering an artificially created gradient, and attempting to provide adequate space, aren't we allowing the tort to self regulate body temperature? By doing this with an MVB we also provide UV. We offset drying with misting and soaking. 

Let's say my tort self soaks in her dish for a few minutes. I'm assuming her body temperature drops a bit. She often then goes and basks for a few minutes bringing her temps back up to a level at which she feels comfortable. All the way to 110? No, but high enough that she feels comfortable. Then she goes off to one of her usual spots, which tend to be in the 80degree area of her gradient. 

Onarock, it doesn't get up over 95 degrees in your area, but I assume it doesn't go down to 35 degrees either. Are you just posting this to make us northerners jealous that you live in Hawaii?? If so, point taken.


----------



## John (Mar 14, 2011)

exoticsdr said:


> Ok, let's experiment. Take a rock and place it on the counter in your home for 48 hours and then measure the temp on the surface of the rock with a laser thermometer. I would guess that the temp will be extremely close to your room temp...thus proving you're right...room temp is room temp.
> 
> Now, take that same rock and place it outside in the sun on a day that is 90 degrees out and do the same measurement, I bet the rock is no longer 90 degrees. Tortoises will bask in the sunlight in order to digest their food and will bask in order to "run a fever" to fight off diseasse and it doesn't matter whether the ambient temp is 75 or 95, the basking temperatures achieved in the sun are going to be much higher because the body absorbs and radiates the heat back into the environment....so don't be scared.


and this can't be acomplished standing in the sun on a 75 degree day?


----------



## exoticsdr (Mar 14, 2011)

squamata said:


> exoticsdr said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, let's experiment. Take a rock and place it on the counter in your home for 48 hours and then measure the temp on the surface of the rock with a laser thermometer. I would guess that the temp will be extremely close to your room temp...thus proving you're right...room temp is room temp.
> ...



OK, Squamata....what's your point?


----------



## John (Mar 14, 2011)

CtTortoise said:


> My 2 cents: just because a basking spot is 110+ degrees (for example) doesn't mean that the tortoise will remain in the spot until he/she reaches a temperature of 110+ degrees. By offering an artificially created gradient, and attempting to provide adequate space, aren't we allowing the tort to self regulate body temperature? By doing this with an MVB we also provide UV. We offset drying with misting and soaking.
> 
> Let's say my tort self soaks in her dish for a few minutes. I'm assuming her body temperature drops a bit. She often then goes and basks for a few minutes bringing her temps back up to a level at which she feels comfortable. All the way to 110? No, but high enough that she feels comfortable. Then she goes off to one of her usual spots, which tend to be in the 80degree area of her gradient.
> 
> Onarock, it doesn't get up over 95 degrees in your area, but I assume it doesn't go down to 35 degrees either. Are you just posting this to make us northerners jealous that you live in Hawaii?? If so, point taken.



you don't need 120 degree air temp too raise body temp too 90


----------



## onarock (Mar 14, 2011)

Exactly Doc. People have shown that a tortoise basking in the sun when the ambient temp is 85 outside that the tortoise shell reads 100. So, I still ask, what is the benefit of 110 degrees? Is it necessary or overkill. I say that, based on your statemnet and what I have witnessed keeping tortoises outside year round and what others have studied in the wild that 110 degree basking is not necessary not even close. I also think that those who provide extremely hot and un-natural basking spots need to combat the ill effects of such by cranking up the humidity and need to constantly mist/spray and soak. What say you Doc. BTW thanks for the intelligent responce, finally someone with an original thought.



exoticsdr said:


> Love the sarcasm in your post...ads flavor to the conversation.
> 
> Ok, let's experiment. Take a rock and place it on the counter in your home for 48 hours and then measure the temp on the surface of the rock with a laser thermometer. I would guess that the temp will be extremely close to your room temp...thus proving you're right...room temp is room temp.
> 
> Now, take that same rock and place it outside in the sun on a day that is 90 degrees out and do the same measurement, I bet the rock is no longer 90 degrees. Tortoises will bask in the sunlight in order to digest their food and will bask in order to "run a fever" to fight off diseasse and it doesn't matter whether the ambient temp is 75 or 95, the basking temperatures achieved in the sun are going to be much higher because the body absorbs and radiates the heat back into the environment....so don't be scared.


----------



## Neal (Mar 14, 2011)

squamata said:


> you don't need 120 degree air temp too raise body temp too 90



Great point!!!!


----------



## John (Mar 14, 2011)

exoticsdr said:


> squamata said:
> 
> 
> > exoticsdr said:
> ...


my point is that you don't need too provide 1120 degree heat the mvb is radiant heat like the sun in a way if it is 90 below the light the tort can absorb the heat and be 90 too.of course you have too hydrate at 120 you are cooking them by the way doc nice too see ya


----------



## exoticsdr (Mar 14, 2011)

I have not heard anyone claim that the ambient air temp had to be raised to 120 degrees in the torts enclosure, what has been clearly said is that a basking area of 100+ degrees needs to be provided, meaning that an area needs to be provided where the tortoise can raise it's body temp up to 100+ degrees if it chooses to.


----------



## Robert (Mar 14, 2011)

Another thought to consider: for a new tortoise owner, is it better to ere on the side of caution and provide too high temps that the tort can avoid, or provide too low temps which might leave the tort wanting heat?


----------



## exoticsdr (Mar 14, 2011)

CtTortoise said:


> Another thought to consider: for a new tortoise owner, is it better to ere on the side of caution and provide too high temps that the tote can avoid, or provide too low temps which might leave the tort wanting heat?



Wisely spoken


----------



## Robert (Mar 14, 2011)

squamata said:


> 1120 degree heat



That would indeed be dangerous!


----------



## onarock (Mar 14, 2011)

Ct, my point in all of this has to do with accute damaging heat and the need to constantly soak, spray and raise the humidity to offset potential damage. Tortoises don't go out in it so why provide it. The electric company loves it. Just think about it, is all I'm asking. 
Oh, you can live wherever you want. 



CtTortoise said:


> My 2 cents: just because a basking spot is 110+ degrees (for example) doesn't mean that the tortoise will remain in the spot until he/she reaches a temperature of 110+ degrees. By offering an artificially created gradient, and attempting to provide adequate space, aren't we allowing the tort to self regulate body temperature? By doing this with an MVB we also provide UV. We offset drying with misting and soaking.
> 
> Let's say my tort self soaks in her dish for a few minutes. I'm assuming her body temperature drops a bit. She often then goes and basks for a few minutes bringing her temps back up to a level at which she feels comfortable. All the way to 110? No, but high enough that she feels comfortable. Then she goes off to one of her usual spots, which tend to be in the 80degree area of her gradient.
> 
> Onarock, it doesn't get up over 95 degrees in your area, but I assume it doesn't go down to 35 degrees either. Are you just posting this to make us northerners jealous that you live in Hawaii?? If so, point taken.


----------



## John (Mar 14, 2011)

exoticsdr said:


> CtTortoise said:
> 
> 
> > Another thought to consider: for a new tortoise owner, is it better to ere on the side of caution and provide too high temps that the tote can avoid, or provide too low temps which might leave the tort wanting heat?
> ...


----------



## onarock (Mar 14, 2011)

I see your point, but any long term tortoise keeper with experience in both hatchlings and adults can tell you that too high is just as bad as too low. 



exoticsdr said:


> CtTortoise said:
> 
> 
> > Another thought to consider: for a new tortoise owner, is it better to ere on the side of caution and provide too high temps that the tote can avoid, or provide too low temps which might leave the tort wanting heat?
> ...


----------



## John (Mar 14, 2011)

exoticsdr said:


> CtTortoise said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


why not provide an adequate enviornment without going too either extreme why not teach the new guy the right way at a safe moderate level


----------



## Robert (Mar 14, 2011)

Damn typos!! I hate moving totes!


----------



## exoticsdr (Mar 14, 2011)

So, now the real question is, what optimum temp does the tortoise need to achieve to effectively digest it's food and keep it's immune system effective also? Normal body temps for mammals fall in the range of 99-103 and birds upward of 104-105. What is so unbelievable that a tortoise needs to reach at least as high as a bird to properly digest it's food and provide adequate immune response to fight off disease?


----------



## Robert (Mar 14, 2011)

squamata said:


> why not provide an adequate enviornment without going too either extreme why not teach the new guy the right way at a safe moderate level



As "the new guy" I'm asking this seriously. Using a 100w MVB lamp, it is recommended to keep the bulb 12 inches above the torts shell. In my enclosure, that keeps the basking spot at about 96 degrees give or take. I am assuming that this 12 inches also maximizes the amount of UVB? So if I was to raise it, dropping my basking spot temp to say 80 degrees, wouldn't I be negating the UVB output levels? I'm asking because I don't know. 


And isn't all of this a moot point if the tort is given adequate room to get away from the basking spot if desired? I assume the only downside would be, as Onarock pointed out, high electric bills. 

(feverishly checking for typos)


----------



## exoticsdr (Mar 14, 2011)

squamata said:


> exoticsdr said:
> 
> 
> > CtTortoise said:
> ...


So what is that safe moderate level and who determined it and how? I would love to know, so I can start informing my clients. So far, what I have been telling them has worked great, including coming to this forum, so they can see varying opinions on tortoise care.


----------



## onarock (Mar 14, 2011)

I'm not understanding the last bit of your wording Doc. Are you telling us or asking? At any rate do they need a 110+ basking spot to achieve this? Thats my question... a question only you seem to want to tackle. 



exoticsdr said:


> So, now the real question is, what optimum temp does the tortoise need to achieve to effectively digest it's food and keep it's immune system effective also? Normal body temps for mammals fall in the range of 99-103 and birds upward of 104-105. What is so unbelievable that a tortoise needs to reach at least as high as a bird to properly digest it's food and provide adequate immune response to fight off disease?


----------



## John (Mar 14, 2011)

exoticsdr said:


> So, now the real question is, what optimum temp does the tortoise need to achieve to effectively digest it's food and keep it's immune system effective also? Normal body temps for mammals fall in the range of 99-103 and birds upward of 104-105. What is so unbelievable that a tortoise needs to reach at least as high as a bird to properly digest it's food and provide adequate immune response to fight off disease?



how do the birds where i live reach those temps when its 20 degrees out for two months?


----------



## Robert (Mar 14, 2011)

onarock said:


> I see your point, but any long term tortoise keeper with experience in both hatchlings and adults can tell you that too high is just as bad as too low.



Point taken. I am certainly not an experienced tortoise keeper and didn't intend to come across as one. I'm just learning. It seems in the short time I've been here, the "I need help" posts more often involve temps that are too low.


----------



## Becki (Mar 14, 2011)

Ugh....I'm so sick of this!


----------



## exoticsdr (Mar 14, 2011)

onarock said:


> I'm not understanding the last bit of your wording Doc. Are you telling us or asking? At any rate do they need a 110+ basking spot to achieve this? Thats my question... a question only you seem to want to tackle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## John (Mar 14, 2011)

CtTortoise said:


> onarock said:
> 
> 
> > I see your point, but any long term tortoise keeper with experience in both hatchlings and adults can tell you that too high is just as bad as too low.
> ...



so with that little experience we should recommend they go way over thier head and build a swamp and harness the sun.why not go moderate and simple as they grow and thier knowledge developes they can move farther if they so chose


----------



## onarock (Mar 14, 2011)

Nice contribution... do you want to share what you had for lunch? How about your favorite color? 



Becki said:


> Ugh....I'm so sick of this!


----------



## Robert (Mar 14, 2011)

squamata said:


> why not go moderate and simple as they grow and thier knowledge developes they can move farther if they so chose



I think this is good, fair advice. 


Any thoughts on the UVB aspect of an MVB? If raised too high to drop the temps, won't that effect the level of UVB the tort is getting? 

(Again, I'm not up at 110 degrees, I'm about 96)


----------



## exoticsdr (Mar 14, 2011)

onarock said:


> Nice contribution... do you want to share what you had for lunch? How about your favorite color?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



hahaha...that's why I love to interact with you Rock! This has been a fun discussion and has honestly made me have to think about and re-assess/re-affirm many of my beliefs


----------



## John (Mar 14, 2011)

CtTortoise said:


> squamata said:
> 
> 
> > why not go moderate and simple as they grow and thier knowledge developes they can move farther if they so chose
> ...



actually 96 is right where i'm at 60% humidity


----------



## exoticsdr (Mar 14, 2011)

BTW...squamata...I'm still a little perplexed by your bird question....you weren't serious, right?


----------



## John (Mar 14, 2011)

exoticsdr said:


> BTW...squamata...I'm still a little perplexed by your bird question....you weren't serious, right?



why not you don't have snow birds in texas?


----------



## onarock (Mar 14, 2011)

Dont think I ever stated "out of line" Doc. If you read this thread, I think I started out asking the question "what are the benefits"? A question still not answered. Can the same thing be accomplished at 98, 95 or 90 my experience and my torts tell me yes. If a tortoise can metabolize, fight infection and thrive at temps around 95 why do we give them or better yet promote temps of 110+? It stands to reason that if you provide such extreme temps that you also need to provide extreme humidity, spraying and soaking. I guess what I'm suggesting is we maintain our tortoises at lower basking temps and less humidity and achieve the same results. Not trying to be sarcastic or argumenative, but does what I write seem logical to you, that we are fighting one extreme (basking of 110+) with another (humidity over 80% and constant basking and soaking)?


----------



## exoticsdr (Mar 14, 2011)

squamata said:


> exoticsdr said:
> 
> 
> > BTW...squamata...I'm still a little perplexed by your bird question....you weren't serious, right?
> ...



hahaha...I think they are afraid of Texas, they all end up in Florida...have a great night!


----------



## Yvonne G (Mar 14, 2011)

onarock said:


> You got me scared Doc. It never gets above 95 where I live and actually 92 will make the news.. yes its that rare.



Are there any tortoises indigenous to the Hawaiian Islands?

John: Birds, like mammals, have a body temperature that they get from calories burned. Birds have to eat and burn calories and their body temp, like ours, remains at a certain temp. They don't have to sit in the sun to warm up like a cold-blooded animal does.


----------



## onarock (Mar 14, 2011)

Good question Yvonne. No there isnt. The islands are young comparativly speaking and the most isolated spot on earth... if that means anything



emysemys said:


> onarock said:
> 
> 
> > You got me scared Doc. It never gets above 95 where I live and actually 92 will make the news.. yes its that rare.
> ...


----------



## exoticsdr (Mar 14, 2011)

onarock said:


> Dont think I ever stated "out of line" Doc. If you read this thread, I think I started out asking the question "what are the benefits"? A question still not answered. Can the same thing be accomplished at 98, 95 or 90 my experience and my torts tell me yes. If a tortoise can metabolize, fight infection and thrive at temps around 95 why do we give them or better yet promote temps of 110+? It stands to reason that if you provide such extreme temps that you also need to provide extreme humidity, spraying and soaking. I guess what I'm suggesting is we maintain our tortoises at lower basking temps and less humidity and achieve the same results. Not trying to be sarcastic or argumenative, but does what I write seem logical to you, that we are fighting one extreme (basking of 110+) with another (humidity over 80% and constant basking and soaking)?



Don't you keep your torts outside year around? If that is the case, then this argument doesn't even really effect you or the way in which you keep your torts. Now, if you are saying that when it's 95 in Hawaii, your outside torts temps don't get above that temp, I say that you need a new thermometer and you are NOT raising your torts at 90, 95 or even 98 degrees as you suggest the lower 48 tort owners to prescribe to. I can appreciate your arguement, but I think being where you are, it is natural to take for granted certain advantages that you have over us on the mainland without realizing what your torts are actually experiencing (i.e. the effects of radiant heating and fairly constant temps). I will continue to provide adequate humidities and higher basking temps and let the torts decide. As for this subject, I think I've beaten this horse enough.


----------



## onarock (Mar 14, 2011)

exoticsdr said:


> onarock said:
> 
> 
> > Dont think I ever stated "out of line" Doc. If you read this thread, I think I started out asking the question "what are the benefits"? A question still not answered. Can the same thing be accomplished at 98, 95 or 90 my experience and my torts tell me yes. If a tortoise can metabolize, fight infection and thrive at temps around 95 why do we give them or better yet promote temps of 110+? It stands to reason that if you provide such extreme temps that you also need to provide extreme humidity, spraying and soaking. I guess what I'm suggesting is we maintain our tortoises at lower basking temps and less humidity and achieve the same results. Not trying to be sarcastic or argumenative, but does what I write seem logical to you, that we are fighting one extreme (basking of 110+) with another (humidity over 80% and constant basking and soaking)?
> ...


----------



## exoticsdr (Mar 14, 2011)

I am going to beat this horse again....but with a different stick. When I tell clients 100 degrees or 110 degrees, I don't tell them that the ambient temp needs to be that temp and I think thatis where the confusion will be for the newbies out there. A basking area needs to be provided and that basking area needs to allow the tort to elevate it's body temp to an appropriate temp to effectively digest it's food. This is where those laser thermometers come in handy.

Rock, I too, always look forward to your insight and passion. Have a great night, my friend.


----------



## Becki (Mar 14, 2011)

onarock said:


> Nice contribution... do you want to share what you had for lunch? How about your favorite color?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, my favorite color is yellow. Thanks for asking!


----------



## Robert (Mar 14, 2011)

Onarock: any thoughts on the UVB issues with an MVB? Mine is hung 12 inches above my torts shell which makes my basking stone about 96 degrees. (Her shell is about 6-8 inches high). If I had a small hatchling, I assume the spot would be hotter. 

Do you think the secondary benefit of the UVB, hung at the recommended height, makes the higher temps justified? Especially if the negative effects of higher temps can be easily controlled with increased humidity/spraying/soaking?



My favorite color is green.


----------



## DeanS (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*



onarock said:


> So, your saying tortoises that exhibit some forms of pyramiding arent thriving? That is laughable. I have 8 platynota two are pyramid all have been kept the same. They dont act any different than the others and all appear to be thriving. But, hey, what do I know.



Not much apparently! And next time let squamata speak for himself. This is why I disappeared from the Forum for awhile...too many wannabe experts. If you truly wanna learn...GREAT! Pose your question in a civil manner and let someone knowledgeable answer it! And don't turn it into the GREAT DEBATE! If you don't want to test other peoples' theories, then you really shouldn't comment too harshly on their SUCCESS! It seems that everytime someone gets an animal...within a month or two...they're an expert! It used to be amusing...now it's just pathetic!


----------



## onarock (Mar 14, 2011)

I think the 120 degree ambient was a brain fart on the posters end. 

My experience has been, and others too, is that a tortoise has the ability to thermoregulate itself to temps much higher than 85 degrees even if the ambient temp is 85 provided they have access to direct or partial sun.

So, if what I have experienced as well as others is correct, what is the benefit of 110+ degree basking. It seems as if its accute, extreme heat. I think that the accuteness of the temp is the issue. I can heat my hand up in an oven slow or I can heat my hand up over an open flame fast. The same temps can be reached, but one will burn while the other will not.



exoticsdr said:


> I have not heard anyone claim that the ambient air temp had to be raised to 120 degrees in the torts enclosure, what has been clearly said is that a basking area of 100+ degrees needs to be provided, meaning that an area needs to be provided where the tortoise can raise it's body temp up to 100+ degrees if it chooses to.


----------



## ALDABRAMAN (Mar 14, 2011)

exoticsdr said:


> I am going to beat this horse again....but with a different stick. When I tell clients 100 degrees or 110 degrees, I don't tell them that the ambient temp needs to be that temp and I think thatis where the confusion will be for the newbies out there. A basking area needs to be provided and that basking area needs to allow the tort to elevate it's body temp to an appropriate temp to effectively digest it's food. This is where those laser thermometers come in handy.
> 
> Rock, I too, always look forward to your insight and passion. Have a great night, my friend.


Best answer and simple. To digest food and thermoregulate!



Here is what we notice. When it is very hot, they do not spend as much time in the sun as to when it is less hot.


----------



## Az tortoise compound (Mar 14, 2011)

Paul,
Isn't the benefit, a tortoise having the choice of spending time where it's 110* if it chooses to? In my mind, as long as a gradient is provided our animals will travel where they want. I put my faith in the animals instinct (mother nature) knowing more than we do.
On a side note:
I think these conversations need to take place from the standpoint that "we" as a group of varying experience do not know alot that is absolute scientific "fact". You do not have irrefutable proof a 110* basking spot is bad and I do not have irrefutable proof it is good.
Therefore
People need to be more open minded and talk about "our" ideas not "their" beliefs. 
I have the same chance you do of being dead wrong.


----------



## onarock (Mar 14, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*

You based you post on my sarcastic remark. Talk about pathetic. You still have not answered my questions which leads me to think your just a sheep and I should take this up with your superiors (Tom).

Never called myself an expert. Actually it was you who dropped all the reptile and Zoo references. Your are also the only one who stated your theory as fact. If you read my posts I posted my questions in a civil manner and all I got in return is regurgitated mis-informaiton and silence. Like I said, you dont know why your doing what your doing. You cant even tell us why it works. Let me ask you this Mr.Tortoise Expert, can you accomplish the same result with 75% humidity and 95 degree basking? I'm sure this will go unanswered like my other questions. I'm hoping that your not as reckless as you appear to be and you actually stepped up your humidity and heat neads over a period of years gradually and had numerous test subjects, but I dont think that will be the case. You jumped on board Toms theory and stated it as fact and the most important thread on the forum. 

If your implying that I have only been keeping tortoises for a month or two, I dont know what led you to that. 

I'm sure Dean that with all the hatchlings you produced over the years due to the success youve had with your group your more than capable of producing an original thought. I just dont think you will.

Im sure you have some original thought to add to all this, just think you dont want to be un-loyal



DeanS said:



> onarock said:
> 
> 
> > So, your saying tortoises that exhibit some forms of pyramiding arent thriving? That is laughable. I have 8 platynota two are pyramid all have been kept the same. They dont act any different than the others and all appear to be thriving. But, hey, what do I know.
> ...


----------



## Tom (Mar 14, 2011)

Paul your tone in this entire thread is despicable, insulting, sarcastic, off-putting and hostile. I don't like it and most of the responders to your thread are being very mature while dealing with your childish jabs. We are all tortoise people here. We all want what's best for tortoises. We all have different experiences and points of view. Can we please act and talk to each other like the friends that we are, or ought to be. We are all here to share and learn. Sarcasm and belittlement does not further that goal.

I'll tell you again (and again and again, if necessary), the people who have read the Fife's book and/or discovered and experimented with these things on their own, are not followers of mine. They are reasonably intelligent people who just happened to have reached the same conclusion as me, usually for the same reasons. Why do you insist that I am the leader and anyone who agrees with my findings is a mindless follower? It was inappropriate and insulting the first time you proclaimed this and its not getting any more tasteful now. Enough of my ranting... I'll answer your original question again. Apparently, me answering it in PMs didn't satisfy you, or perhaps you are trying to bait me out into public to be the victim of more sarcasm and accusations of ignoring you.

Caveat: I am primarily talking about sulcatas, leopards, CDTs and russians. I only have limited experience with any of the others that was mostly acquired through nearly a decade of working with them, and clients who owned them, in retail pet stores. The first four species listed, I have two decades of personal experience with. Redfoots and Kelly's gorgeous greeks are not anything I will argue about. I don't have enough first hand knowledge of those species to do so.

Point #1: Even on a cool day torts seek to warm themselves up to 100+ degrees. Just this Saturday I had several forum members visit the ranch. With an ambient temp of 67F, we temped Scooter's carapace at 104.1. This is a tort who lives outside and has ample shade to sit in anytime he likes. When its over 100 degrees he and all my other sulcatas walk around in the sun and graze in direct sunlight without a care. All of my babies (20 right now) temp at around 100 degrees F after an hour or two of sun as well. An 85-90 degree basking spot will not allow a tort in a 65-70 degree, North American house achieve its desired body temp. Most of the time my outdoor torts carapace temps are 98-112. This is by choice. They have ample shade at all times of the day and at least one, if not several areas, to soak in cool water, if they so desire.

Point #2: A tortoises behavior ought to be an indication of whether or not your temps are correct. If they are always directly under the light or always on the hot side and seldom move to the cool side of the enclosure, it should indicate that things are too cool. Likewise, if they are always on the cool side, avoiding the heat of the lamp, things are probably too hot. For the average home here in the states a basking spot of 100-110 seems to make the tort move in and out of the hot spot just about the right amount. At that basking temp, they will usually sit for a while to warm themselves and them begin to explore the cage and forage for food. (Some will commence begging for food at this point.) After a bit of exercise or eating, they will usually return to bask some more and warm back up to 100+. At a basking temp of 85-90 they will most often just sit right under the light, all the time, as they never reach their desired temp. THIS is what will really dry them out. No one is saying house them at 100+ degrees. We are saying, give them the OPTION of warming themselves up to that temp, AND the option of moving away from that temp when they are comfortable. This is the whole concept of thermoregulation. I'll bet that if you temp an adult sulcata carapace or a leopard carapace in Hawaii you'll get somewhere near the same temps. Even though ambient is not 100 there, I'll bet the torts still thermoregulate themselves up to that point. In the event that I am wrong, which I'm sure you would gleefully point out, it may be because things are consistently warmer there with out the night time or seasonal lows that we have. There is a thing called "heat inertia" which is a well documented survival strategy employed by large African mammals, where they channel blood flow for minimal warming during the hot days and maximum cooling during the cooler nights. It makes sense that a North American tortoise might attempt to get a little extra warm during the day in anticipation of a cooler night. A factor that you might not have over there, or maybe just not as pronounced.

Point #3: You are way too hung up on these EXACT humidity and temp numbers. ITS A GENERALITY FOR GOODNESS SAKE!!! How many times must I, and many others, repeat this? The numbers will be different for someone in New Orleans than they will for me in the CA desert. They will be different for the Pacific Northwest than they will be for South Florida. In general, higher humidity prevents pyramiding. This was proven in the Austrian study and proven hundreds of times over by people like me. The temps I share with people are the temps that have worked well for me. Truth be told, I actually like my basking spots a little warmer. I, however, check the temps at the highest part of the tortoises carapace height. Because I'm afraid someone might over do it, I have started recommending "around 100" here on the forum in case someone goes over board. I'll bet you can still find old posts of mine from when I first joined the forum where I recommended 120-130 degree basking spots, but clearly stated only in that one spot. I used to keep Uromastyx too. Try keeping them at 80-90 and see how well they do for you. ALSO, I'm now experimenting with lower basking temps for just the reasons you cited AND because I like to keep an open mind. Your queries have NOT been ignored, I'm checking things out, BECAUSE of your questions. When my basking temps start dropping below 100 the torts just camp right under the hottest part of the light all day. You kept torts here on the mainland. I can't understand why you don't know this. Did you used to keep them with 80 degree hot spots here? Didn't you notice they hardly ever got out from under the lights?

Point #4: I really don't see why you don't get the connection between your relatively mild ambient temps but with the ability to bask in the sun, and indoor basking. Your torts don't sit outdoors in Hawaii and maintain a temp of 80 all day. They bask in the mornings and afternoons and maintain an over all warmer than ambient temp all day, don't they? This is all we are advocating for indoor torts over here. At a basking spot of only 80-90 they CANNOT get as warm as your Hawaiian torts even on a cool day. What don't you get?


Rob, there is much debate over your question. Here is my opinion based on my experience: I don't care what the box says. I position the height of the lamps to get the desired temps. I don't understand how UV can travel millions of miles from the sun and still be so intact that a highly effective amount of it can still BOUNCE into the shade, but if your $50 MVB is placed 2" too high its UV output is totally ineffective. Solar UV can travel millions of miles through space and be filtered by all the layers of our atmosphere and the ever present contaminants, but MVB UV can't travel an extra 2" though clean, indoor air? Makes no sense to me. I don't agree that a 100+ degree basking spot is damaging in any way to a torts shell. And I don't think that the humidity and moisture is compensating for overly hot basking spots either. As was demonstrated above, for a tort like Scooter, even an indoor basking spot of 100 degrees is not warm enough. He wanted to be 104 on Saturday.


----------



## Skyler Nell (Mar 14, 2011)

So, I only read the first 2 pages of this thread but this entire thing seems so over the top! So much fighting over something so minimal. Have people raised healthy tortoises that are "thriving" with a 115 basking spot? YES. Have people raised healthy tortoises with a much lower temp? YES. So there, case closed. Both sides make sense, so chose what you think is best, either way works, even if some pyramiding takes place. Is that really such a horrible thing? As long as it doesn't turn into MBD it doesn't really affect anything. Regardless, tortoises almost always do better outside, so why are we so obsessed with the need to create this "perfected indoor environment" when really these little guys just wanna be where they came from...OUTDOORS. Sheesh, sometimes the stuff I see on here just blows my mind. All these people speaking so cruelly over a couple degrees difference. And lets face it, if you're going to talk to someone like this, you probably don't really care how they keep their tortoise anyways. This is just my 18 year old perspective...adults behaving like children.


----------



## onarock (Mar 15, 2011)

The entire thread?? Think your being over dramatic dont you? I dont think I'm behaving any differently than you have on other threads. You have berated people on the forum, but I guess your level of beratement is acceptable and mine is not... I'm not surprised.

First off, this isnt my thread. This thread is courtesy of Yvonne. She made up the title and added my name to it...

If you read the original posts from the other thread, Dean states quite clearly that these are his and your ideas. I didnt bring you into this debate Dean did. Inappropriate and insulting yet factual (something I dont wish to debate here) but I have shared with you in a PM as well.

Your point 1. Isnt an 85-90 degree basking spot an 85-90 degree basking spot? What does the environment around have to do with that particular spot. If its 85 degrees at my house and the mountain top above my house is 10 degrees its still 85 at my house. You state yourself that it was 67 degrees at your house but your tortoise carapace was 104.1. What I am saying is cant tortoises thermoregulate using basking lamps as well? If its 67 degrees in your house and you provide them with a 90-95 degree basking spot wont their shells reflect similar findings to your outdoor reference?

Your point 2. "A tortoises behavior ought to be an indication of whether or not your temps are correct. If they are always directly under the light or always on the hot side and seldom move to the cool side of the enclosure, it should indicate that things are too cool." This is not true especially for hatchlings. I have seen first hand account both indoors and out where hatchlings have begun to fail within minutes of being exposed to intense heat, basically freezing them right where they sit.

"At a basking temp of 85-90 they will most often just sit right under the light, all the time, as they never reach their desired temp. THIS is what will really dry them out." Are you stating that tortoises cant thermoregulate indoors? A forum member did a study using blocks of wood and a 75 watt spot lamp with ambient temps in the 60's and recorded surface temps well over 100 and a core temp of 90+ and thats wood. I know torts arent wood.

Your point 3. I am not anymore hung up on exact numbers then you or Dean are on stating your opinion and theory as fact and promoting such. 

Your point 4. You have stated that your relative ambient temp is in the low 80's. You also stated that my torts bask in the morning and afternoon sun, which is true. They dont bask in the mid day sun. Let me get this straight. You keep an ambient temp similir to mine. You keep relative humidity similir to mine sometimes. In a way you state that my torts prefer to bask when the sun is not at its peak (an observation noted by many a tortoise keeper and by people who observe them in the wild not just pertaining to my group) then why is it that you and apparently Dean provide mid day sun all the time? A condition they try to avoid.

Listen, all I did was ask a question. I did not cast the first stone. Dean got snippy with John and I ran to his defense, something you have done on this forum in the past when it was percieved that your method was under attack. Your right, I did get a bit nasty with Dean, but hes a big boy he'll get over it.

I have shared your method with those that are not part of this forum. Keepers who have been to these specific spots of the world with the sole purpose of studying tortoises and none of them describe the conditions that you promote. Although, hatchlings were not something they observed in the wild, they were a heck of alot closer to the situation than you or I. I guess what I have been trying to state here and on other threads is can we get away with less extreme conditions. We talk about the newbie and wanting to give them the best info that we can. Its not that newbies cant understand what is being told to them and thus they will end up with a sick tort. To me more than anything its they dont have an understanding of the tools, the equipment. They are not familiar with these things such as the different basking lamps, undertank heating, CHE's and so on and so on, so they dont know how to use them properly and dont know their potential or limitations. For newbies your asking them to push the envelope. They are having anough trouble trying to sift through all the info being presented to them on top of trying to learn how all this tortoise hardware works.

Something I will state again for the tenth time. I never said that I think your method doesnt produce results. I think that you and Dean have proven that it does. I am just asking if your tollerances need to be set so high and if backing them off a bit will produce the same results and maybe help the newbie with that dreaded tortoise indoor habitat learning curve.

P.S its past my bed time. I dont use word to draft on as I suspect some do and I'm not going to proof read. It is what it is typos, spelling mistakes, poor grammar and all
PSS or what ever. I just went through this thread again and using Docs words "not to beat a dead horse", you think Deans last post to me "apparently not much" wasnt snippy? Grain of Salt...
Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-why-basking-spot-115-degrees?page=5#ixzz1GeZoyTC6



Tom said:


> Paul your tone in this entire thread is despicable, insulting, sarcastic, off-putting and hostile. I don't like it and most of the responders to your thread are being very mature while dealing with your childish jabs. We are all tortoise people here. We all want what's best for tortoises. We all have different experiences and points of view. Can we please act and talk to each other like the friends that we are, or ought to be. We are all here to share and learn. Sarcasm and belittlement does not further that goal.
> 
> I'll tell you again (and again and again, if necessary), the people who have read the Fife's book and/or discovered and experimented with these things on their own, are not followers of mine. They are reasonably intelligent people who just happened to have reached the same conclusion as me, usually for the same reasons. Why do you insist that I am the leader and anyone who agrees with my findings is a mindless follower? It was inappropriate and insulting the first time you proclaimed this and its not getting any more tasteful now. Enough of my ranting... I'll answer your original question again. Apparently, me answering it in PMs didn't satisfy you, or perhaps you are trying to bait me out into public to be the victim of more sarcasm and accusations of ignoring you.
> 
> ...


----------



## John (Mar 15, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*



DeanS said:


> 80 - 95 degrees overall is fine! I said they need a basking spot of 100-120! They come from the Sahara! Sometimes the Sahara doesn't get rain for a decade. Babies spend most of their early years in burrows that retain humidity from root systems, urates, feces...you name it! Why do I have to be published?!? I've worked with animals for more than 35 years. I've worked in reptile facilities! I've worked in zoos! I apologize if you think I'm 'cramming' anything down your throat! In captivity, dry conditions create pyramiding. You can offer the right food, but if conditions aren't right, you're going to get pyramiding! I, for one, don't need information spooned to me like a baby taking his first bite! Give it to me all at once. This is the problem some of you have with Tom and myself (and a few others). Fife set the wheels in motion and Tom and I took it to the next level. Sorry if you were too apprehensive not to take the next logical step. Science is ALL about experimentation. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, has studied sulcata hatchlings in their natural environment. It's a good degree of guesswork! Some of us got it and some of you didn't! Don't sit there and criticize because you don't agree out of stubbornness or because what I said hurt your pride! Try it for yourtselves. Think outside of the box for a change. Just because your hatchlings are surviving, doesn't mean they're thriving! EXPERIMENT! Take one or two of your hatchlings and raise them the way Tom and I do! See what happens! Good luck!



please post the range map you reference too show which tortoises live in the sahara.from what i have researched the leopard tortoise range just touches the edge and the sulcatas live in the trasition between the sahara amd the savannah.thanks john


----------



## Neal (Mar 15, 2011)

*RE: Aloe vera*



DeanS said:


> It seems that everytime someone gets an animal...within a month or two...they're an expert! It used to be amusing...now it's just pathetic!



I'm not trying to pick on you or anything, but I don't like this statement. This comment suggests that you don't consider such a person an expert...I'm curious, how much experience do they need before they can be called an expert? This is the problem I have with these forums. People who think because they've been in the hobby longer than another completley disregard any point of information from a "newbie", or anytime they hear something different they are so quick to throw the information away. As an example, there's a recent thread in the leopard section of a caresheet from a journalist in South Africa. Nearly everyone threw that away without reading in between the lines or considering anything of value. I wonder if the "oldbies" weren't so stuck in their ways, we could have learned about the humidity thing a long time ago...who knows.

Everyone of us has something of value to share whether you've been in the hobby for 30 years or 30 days. As far as I'm concerned I'd rather hear from the person who has raised their tortoises the "right" way for a short time rather than someone who has done it the "wrong" way for decades.


----------



## Jacqui (Mar 15, 2011)

WARNING!!

While this may be a debate thread, PLEASE all of you give each other some respect. Stop all name calling now! Debate, but keep it on the friendly side. This thread can and will be closed if you continue in this line. That would be sad, because there are a lot of good thoughts being shared.


----------



## Laura (Mar 15, 2011)

"I am going to beat this horse again....but with a different stick"

OMG!!! ANimal Cruelty!!!! this has GOT TO STOP! ;-) 

But really.. if you 'kids' cant play nicely.. get out of the tortoise enclosure... 
you are stressing the residents... 

has all the world stress going on caused some to lose it a bit? I understand passion for things.. and debating.. and sometimes its hard to 'hear' what is being said in print... 
there is a lot of interesting stuff being brought up. care wise.. but.......


----------



## kbaker (Mar 15, 2011)

I am late on this thread, but I skimmed through it.

From what I saw, Tom is the closest to having a clue.

All reptiles benefit from being able to raise their temps to a certain point for food digestion, kick infections, develope eggs,...

They have to be able to judge for themselves and not be forced to have certain temps. They will use the higher temps when they feel the need. If it's not there when they need it, then they suffer - a little at a time and no, you don't always notice it.

120F is not ambient or air temps, it's surface temps. Yes, you shoot a little high so the proper temp is covered. And no, you never know the exact temp at all times for all tortoises.

Remember, we are cramming a whole eco system in a small area for a tortoise. If we are talking about a medium to large tortoise, a SPOT light does not work. FLOODs are better. One bulb will NEVER cover a tortoise this size. You have to expand the basking AREA. (You don't want to burn the tortoise's left front foot while his rear right foot is getting frost bite ). Also, start taking surface temps on those 'cool' 80F days. You will find them well above 100F.

You should not have to dry out the shell to get proper temps.

Babies do not need as high of heat as a larger adult and yes, they will dehydrate quicker.


----------



## Yvonne G (Mar 15, 2011)

If this thread is to continue, then:

Their are good rules to follow when having a debate.


1. People can be very annoying when having discussions when they don't follow good rules
2. *It's wrong to name calls*.
3. Your goal should be to always be thorough and completely accurate. In business and politics you should not exaggerate or over simplify.
4. *We should always treat each other with respect*. Even those people we think are doing the country harm.
5. You should not say someone is "bad" just because they disagree with you.
6. You have to realize when it is more important to maintain the relationship, than get to truth.
7. You should try to stay on one topic at a time.
8. If you believe a different subject mater is related, and you want to change the subject to something else, you need to explain why.
9. People should only be blamed for things they have control over.
10. People should talk in specifics, not generalities. (somewhere else).
11. You should not lie, or misrepresent the facts.
12. Accusing your opponent of everything the opponent accuses you of so that neutral people who don't understand the game will assume that truth must lie somewhere in between, when in fact w there is nothing to back up your accusation, is not good (OSC).
13. *Accuse the opponent of being unscientific, ignorant, or stupid* ("grasp of Statistics is non-existent"), not because you actually understand science or statistics or anything else yourself, but because you just know that your team always has the facts on their side, regardless of whether you can actually prove it; so anti-establishment "evidence" must all be an ignorant misunderstanding, *is not good* (OSC).
14. You should not speak of your opponent with smug condescension.
15. *You should not name call or attack people personally.*
16. *Sarcasm has no place in a debate!*


----------



## Tom (Mar 15, 2011)

onarock said:


> The entire thread?? Think your being over dramatic dont you? I dont think I'm behaving any differently than you have on other threads. You have berated people on the forum, but I guess your level of beratement is acceptable and mine is not... I'm not surprised.
> 
> First off, this isnt my thread. This thread is courtesy of Yvonne. She made up the title and added my name to it... [End Quote]
> 
> ...


----------



## Yvonne G (Mar 15, 2011)

I split off the majority of this debate from a thread where a member was asking if it was ok to use aloe vera on her tortoise's shell. It just so happened that Onarock's was the first post. If I knew how to put a post written by me as the first one, I would. Sorry if that caused Paul any distress. It wasn't meant for it to look like it was Onarock's thread.

Tom, that's probably what happened to your post on Isa's thread too. The computer just automatically puts the oldest time/date post as the first one, and there's no way for us to put a more current post (one of the mods) as the first one.


----------



## Tom (Mar 15, 2011)

> Your point 1. Isnt an 85-90 degree basking spot an 85-90 degree basking spot? What does the environment around have to do with that particular spot. If its 85 degrees at my house and the mountain top above my house is 10 degrees its still 85 at my house. You state yourself that it was 67 degrees at your house but your tortoise carapace was 104.1. What I am saying is cant tortoises thermoregulate using basking lamps as well? If its 67 degrees in your house and you provide them with a 90-95 degree basking spot wont their shells reflect similar findings to your outdoor reference? [End Quote]
> 
> This is physics Paul. Yes an 85-90 degree basking spot is an 85-90 degree basking spot. And indoors it can ONLY get a tort up to 85-90 degrees. And THAT'S the problem. They want/need to be 100+. Outdoors with an AMBIENT 85-90 they can get MUCH warmer than ambient by sitting in the sun. (Note Scooter at 104.1 on a 67 degree day.) Indoors, if we set the basking temp to 90, they can't get any warmer than 90. Is this making sense? If you put a brick in the sun on an 80 degree day anywhere in the world it will heat up to well over 100+. At my place on a windless day, I'd speculate I could get that brick into the o 150's. Conversely, if you put that same brick under an indoor incandescent light where the basking temp is set to 85, it will heat up to........ wait for it........ 85!!!
> 
> ...


----------



## Jacqui (Mar 15, 2011)

Tom said:


> I've always been respectful, courteous, and careful, even when passionately pleading my case. That's my perception and intention, anyway. I accept that your perception is different.


I will add to this comment, there have been times in the past where I would NOT say that is true about you. Just about everybody crosses that line at sometime.




emysemys said:


> I split off the majority of this debate from a thread where a member was asking if it was ok to use aloe vera on her tortoise's shell. It just so happened that Onarock's was the first post. If I knew how to put a post written by me as the first one, I would. Sorry if that caused Paul any distress. It wasn't meant for it to look like it was Onarock's thread.
> 
> Tom, that's probably what happened to your post on Isa's thread too. The computer just automatically puts the oldest time/date post as the first one, and there's no way for us to put a more current post (one of the mods) as the first one.



Yvonne, I think if we were to make a new thread and in the first post say why we are doing the thread AND THEN merge the posts into that thread it would work. Just a thought.


----------



## Tom (Mar 15, 2011)

onarock said:


> Your point 2. "A tortoises behavior ought to be an indication of whether or not your temps are correct. If they are always directly under the light or always on the hot side and seldom move to the cool side of the enclosure, it should indicate that things are too cool." This is not true especially for hatchlings. I have seen first hand account both indoors and out where hatchlings have begun to fail within minutes of being exposed to intense heat, basically freezing them right where they sit.
> 
> "At a basking temp of 85-90 they will most often just sit right under the light, all the time, as they never reach their desired temp. THIS is what will really dry them out." Are you stating that tortoises cant thermoregulate indoors? A forum member did a study using blocks of wood and a 75 watt spot lamp with ambient temps in the 60's and recorded surface temps well over 100 and a core temp of 90+ and thats wood. I know torts arent wood.



"...basically freezing them right where they sit?" Isn't that called basking? They find a warm spot and sit there and enjoy it. I do the same thing sometimes. What makes you think they are "failing"? I've raised dozens of hatchlings myself and participated in the raising of hundreds, through friends, family, co-workers, customers and now TFO members for the last year or more. I have never heard of a single tortoise "failing" due to a basking light being 110 degrees or due to being outside in the sun. From the day they hatch, if they get too warm, they move to a cooler area or shade.

As far as the experiments with wood and the 75 watt light, how does that help your point? If I move a 75 watt lamp close enough I can get a basking spot of 180 degrees or more. I have no doubt I could start a fire with a 75 watt basking light, if I moved it close enough. What does that have to do with anything? I use everything from 35 watt -160 watt bulbs all year long indoors and every single basking spot must be repeatedly checked for the right temps. I set them all to a little over 100 at tortoise level. When the room heats up a few degrees in summer, they spend less time under them and usually move slightly to the side instead of directly under them. Sounds to me like the 75 watt bulb was doing what it is supposed to. If surface temps were getting too hot, the fixture would need to be adjusted higher or switch to a smaller wattage bulb or perhaps a flood instead of a spot. The wattage and bulb type are not important, the actual basking temp is. Of course, what Kevin said about small spots and larger tortoises certainly applies. Again with the caveat: I'm not talking about redfoots, most Testudo sp., or other "forest" tortoises.



Jacqui said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > I've always been respectful, courteous, and careful, even when passionately pleading my case. That's my perception and intention, anyway. I accept that your perception is different.
> ...





Yes, Ma'am. Point taken.


----------



## Jacqui (Mar 15, 2011)

My personal fear when we make such blanketed comments as "the basking spot should be 115" is the beginner who comes here and reads that and doesn't know:

1. What tortoise types are you talking about?

2. Has the normal wayyyyy to small enclosure currently for his tortoise (and normally it's a hatching who can't take the heat as well as an adult might be able to).

3. How and where do you take that temp? What do you use to take it?

I have worked in too many reptile forums and read to often the "stupid" things people will read and do, following advise on care. 

From reading almost every single post in this thread, I guess I should be having the basking light for my Homes hingebacks at 115. Folks your killing my tortoise here.  

Somebody earlier said, they think you should start low (I think it was said 80) and work your way up, watching *your* tortoise as you do so. I think that was one of the wisest things said in this thread. By doing that it takes into account what tortoise species you have, what size it is, what it's own individualized needs are, what size it's enclosure is, whats in that enclosure, and what the environment is around that enclosure.


----------



## Tom (Mar 15, 2011)

onarock said:


> Your point 3. I am not anymore hung up on exact numbers then you or Dean are on stating your opinion and theory as fact and promoting such.



You say you're not hung up on specific numbers, I say I'm not hung up on specific numbers. Okay, then lets drop it. We're agreed. A few degrees or percentage points one way or the other don't matter that much. I still think that my four previously listed species need a 100-110 degree basking spot indoors so they can raise their body temp to 100+ if they so desire. I'm not sure 85-90 is warm enough for those species to thrive. Again I cite my example of all of mine CHOOSING to be around 100 when they are out in the sun and have the choice to be whatever temp they want. Most days lately they could move to the shade and keep their temp in the 70's. But they don't. They choose to stay in the sun and warm up to 100 or so. Now this is not by chance. If I put a rock or brick in there and it just sits in the sun continuously, it will heat up to 130-140. Yet the torts, by moving in and out of shade and sun consistently maintain their temps at around 100.



onarock said:


> Your point 4. You have stated that your relative ambient temp is in the low 80's. You also stated that my torts bask in the morning and afternoon sun, which is true. They dont bask in the mid day sun. Let me get this straight. You keep an ambient temp similir to mine. You keep relative humidity similir to mine sometimes. In a way you state that my torts prefer to bask when the sun is not at its peak (an observation noted by many a tortoise keeper and by people who observe them in the wild not just pertaining to my group) then why is it that you and apparently Dean provide mid day sun all the time? A condition they try to avoid.



What you seem to be failing to understand is that the torts don't sit around content at ambient. They bask in the morning to get ABOVE ambient and stay there. By mid day they are at their desired temp and continuing to bask would put them OVER their desired temp so they move to the shade. On a cooler day they'll get back in the sun sooner to maintain that "near 100" degree temperature that they feel the need to be at. As the sun gets lower and the temps start to drop in the afternoon they get back in the sun in an effort to maintain the higher than ambient body temp.

To see my point do this: Go temp your torts carapaces first thing in the morning. Then temp them while they are basking. Then temp them again right at the moment when they start move to the shade as they feel warm enough. Temp them some more before during and after the afternoon bask. I think even in HI, you'll find that they are above ambient, when given the choice. Where I am, with my weather, for my species and my individuals, almost all of them of all ages and sizes strive to maintain a body temp of around 100 on sunny days that will allow it. An 85-90 degree indoor basking site will not let them get warm enough.


----------



## John (Mar 15, 2011)

emysemys said:


> I split off the majority of this debate from a thread where a member was asking if it was ok to use aloe vera on her tortoise's shell. It just so happened that Onarock's was the first post. If I knew how to put a post written by me as the first one, I would. Sorry if that caused Paul any distress. It wasn't meant for it to look like it was Onarock's thread.
> 
> Tom, that's probably what happened to your post on Isa's thread too. The computer just automatically puts the oldest time/date post as the first one, and there's no way for us to put a more current post (one of the mods) as the first one.



i completely disagree with this yvonne if you reread the thread deans was the first too take it off topic and attempt too make it a propaganda thread for his way of thinking,that post started it all and was left out.


----------



## DeanS (Mar 15, 2011)

squamata said:


> emysemys said:
> 
> 
> > I split off the majority of this debate from a thread where a member was asking if it was ok to use aloe vera on her tortoise's shell. It just so happened that Onarock's was the first post. If I knew how to put a post written by me as the first one, I would. Sorry if that caused Paul any distress. It wasn't meant for it to look like it was Onarock's thread.
> ...



Not true! Paul asked Jess what her basking temps were...she responded...I chimed in!


----------



## John (Mar 15, 2011)

DeanS said:


> squamata said:
> 
> 
> > emysemys said:
> ...



ya see deans your statement post 10 starts your basking temp needs too be...... paul asked a question and most times if he is giving advice it is stated as an opinion even though he has more experience than i think most of you know.there are a lot of things being presented as proven fact,that very likely could be just that but have yet too be proven,the real argument here is not the methods its how they are being fed too people.it stinks of arogance.i personally have spoken too people who have done what you promote long before you,and have abandoned the idea for a more moderate approach which produces the same results


----------



## Tom (Mar 15, 2011)

squamata said:


> i personally have spoken too people who have done what you promote long before you,and have abandoned the idea for a more moderate approach which produces the same results




John, I hear you and a couple of others saying this same thing. You all keep perpetrating what seems/feels like an attack on the method that I have found to work, but then saying, "oh no, we agree with it." I'm just not understanding.

Please, will one of you simply state what the more moderate method is? I clearly stated my method in the care sheet and every where else. I clearly explained why I use and recommend 100-110 degree basking sites in the posts above. Why won't one of you just spell it out for us? What is it that YOU recommend? Make a new care sheet explaining your method. Or post it in debatable and we can all discuss the merits of it. I am on this forum to LEARN. I also like to help and share what I know, but I'm primarily selfish and I want knowledge. I want to learn everything possible. It is my PRIMARY reason for being here. I'm dying to know what the more moderate approach is that produces the same results. Since tone does not come across in the printed word, let me explain that I do not mean this post to be in any way sarcastic or argumentative in any way. I REALLY do want to learn what it is you guys are talking about. I want everyone to learn it. If its better than what I know, I'll start doing it and promoting it too. If you'd simply spell it out, newbies could look at both methods and choose what is best for their situation. I don't want to "win". I don't care who is "right". I just want to see as many healthy torts for as many people as possible. I am on the "side" of whoever can deliver this. Why all the secrecy and vague hints?


----------



## John (Mar 15, 2011)

Tom said:


> squamata said:
> 
> 
> > i personally have spoken too people who have done what you promote long before you,and have abandoned the idea for a more moderate approach which produces the same results
> ...



well tom we all know i'm a horrible typist so i'll make it easy on everyone,LEOPARD TORTOISES,the natural history,captivecare,and breeding of stigmochelys pardalis by richard fife & jerry fife 
you can get an autographed copy for about 17.00. this will save everyone the pain of my horrible typing skills. thanks john


----------



## Tom (Mar 15, 2011)

squamata said:


> well tom we all know i'm a horrible typist so i'll make it easy on everyone,LEOPARD TORTOISES,the natural history,captivecare,and breeding of stigmochelys pardalis by richard fife & jerry fife
> you can get an autographed copy for about 17.00. this will save everyone the pain of my horrible typing skills. thanks john



Thanks John. I've got the book and I'm going to re-read it for about the 8th time. Their methods were not quite enough to get it done in my area, but now I understand at least what YOU mean by a more moderate approach.


----------



## John (Mar 15, 2011)

Tom said:


> squamata said:
> 
> 
> > well tom we all know i'm a horrible typist so i'll make it easy on everyone,LEOPARD TORTOISES,the natural history,captivecare,and breeding of stigmochelys pardalis by richard fife & jerry fife
> ...



so out of curiosity tom,you say it didn't get it done in your area but you are not preaching too your area,you are preaching literally too the world.without knowing what each person's situation is,and i can see it for what it is and therefore i question it


----------



## Az tortoise compound (Mar 15, 2011)

squamata said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > squamata said:
> ...



John,
Based on that statement, no one should ever give advice on the net. Any good advice has always either started or ended with "This is based on my experience and has worked well for me."

What's wrong with a person giving their version of the best advice?
99% of everything on these internet forums are opinions


----------



## John (Mar 15, 2011)

Az tortoise compound said:


> squamata said:
> 
> 
> > Tom said:
> ...



i agree comletely mick but this is not the case here these things are not being stated as opinion or experience that works for some they are being stated as THE way.see mick the problem here is it simply is not being presented as advice or opinion it is being presented as law read back through the many threads we have now been through on this and it is plain too see.what tom is doing is not new it has been done before too an extent as i stated.furthermore that statement does not read like that at all.tom said fife's methods weren't enough for his area well maybe they work for mine,i have the book so i know of it.i'm sure there are people who come here that only know what they see here.maybe they don't happen too be tom's neighbor.


----------



## Kristina (Mar 15, 2011)

I don't use super hot basking areas myself. My enclosures for my babies run from 80* ambient (Cherryhead) to 95* on the hot side, 80* on the cool side (Sulcata babies.)

It has been a couple of years since I had larger Sulcatas, so I will tell you what I have experienced with my Russians.

During the summer, they are outside 24/7. First thing in the morning, they bask for about an hour, from 9-10 am. They rarely come out of their burrows before 9 AM. Then they graze for about an hour. Once temps hit about 80* F, they all go back to the shade, and remain there the majority of the day. In the afternoon, when it starts to cool down, and the sun drops in the sky a bit, they come out and graze for another hour or two. By 6-7 PM, they are starting to tuck themselves in for the night, even though it doesn't get dark until 10.

The ONLY time I see them out in the direct sunlight during the hottest part of the day is if I have the sprinkler on. (This is true for my Redfoots and Hingebacks as well.)

I have taken a bit more "moderate" approach to the humidity issue. My enclosures are humid, but not SUPER humid. They range from 60% to 80%. I have been misting my babies twice a day, and soaking very little, actually. I do however observe each and every one of the babies "self-soaking" in the water dish daily. 

My Cherryhead's enclosure is on the higher end of the humidity scale - 80%. His enclosure is a constant 80*. There have been days when I have not misted at all, yet he has a humid hide. This baby is growing as perfect as I could ever hope for. He looks amazing, I am EXTREMELY proud of him.

My little Greek's enclosure is on the lower end of the humidity spectrum. It is about 60%. In the beginning I was raising her on a dry substrate, and misting twice daily. She began to develop pyramiding. I moved her from the open top sweater box into an aquarium, upped the humidity, and gave her a humid hide. She exhibits pyramiding along her vertebral scutes but the rest of her is smooth. I have been misting more and I am hoping she will continue to smooth out. I feel like I failed with her.

My baby Sulcatas have a humid hide that is 99% humidity and 95* inside. The cool side of the enclosure is 80* and ambient humidity is 70%. They spend most of the day in the hide, except when eating or self-soaking in the water dish (which they do, a LOT. They are TOTAL water babies, especially the darker of the two.) There is a heat source over the water dish so it remains warm all the time. I mist them twice daily, morning and night. I have not had them long, but they exhibit new growth and it is coming in smooth.

My Sri Lankan star has a humid hide and her warmest temp is 90*. She also self-soaks and I mist twice daily. Just a few days ago I posted pictures of how smooth she is. I am EXTREMELY proud of her new growth, and also EXTREMELY nervous that I am going to "screw her up."

I just received a little Leopard today. His enclosure and treatment will 100% mimic the Sulcata hatchlings. 

I wish I had pictures to back this last up - in 1992 I was given my first tortoise, a Gopher tortoise that was taken out of its habitat and brought back to Michigan. He was 3" long at the time. I raised him in an aquarium that was 90* on the warm side and 80* on the cool. I used plain old yard dirt for substrate and planted grass directly in it. His hide was one of those long terra cotta wine chillers. I would take it out every couple of days and soak it in warm water, and I also misted him once every day or so. 

I had him for ten years. He grew to be 10" and 19lbs. One night in 2002, a predator broke into his outdoor enclosure and killed him. I cried, HARD. I was so devastated, and I still am. I miss my Gomer terribly. 

When Gomer died, he was just as smooth as any wild counter part I have ever seen. I lost all of my photos of him (and my beloved Lab, Sammy, another story) in a house fire. But I swear on everything I hold holy that what I am saying is the truth.

So, that is MY take on "moderation." I am going to continue working with my hatchlings and continue learning.


----------



## Tom (Mar 15, 2011)

squamata said:


> i agree comletely mick but this is not the case here these things are not being stated as opinion or experience that works for some they are being stated as THE way.see mick the problem here is it simply is not being presented as advice or opinion it is being presented as law read back through the many threads we have now been through on this and it is plain too see.



Absolutely NOT true! Here is a direct quote lifted DIRECTLY out of the care sheet: This is the very first line of the whole care sheet.

"Here are my thoughts on how to house, feed and care for hatchling and small sulcatas:"

Here are the last two paragraphs.

"Pyramiding prevention: This is all new stuff. You won't see it on an internet care sheet. It is my opinion and the product of 20 years of utter failure and tons of research, observation and trial and error. Lot's of other people helped me to reach these findings, so its not just me. Here is how to grow a smooth, healthy sulcata: Keep them humid, hydrated, warm and spray their shells 3-4 times a day. Yes they are desert animals, but the babies stay hidden in burrows, root balls and leaf litter, where it is HUMID. Babies don't just walk around out in the open in the hot dry air in the wild. They'd get eaten if they did. Once they get to around 6-8" humidity and moisture is much less critical. It is important to get them sunshine, exercise and a good diet too, but hydration, humidity, and moisture is the KEY to preventing pyramiding. Soak them in shallow, warm water at least once a day. I soak them first thing in the morning and again after a sunning session in the hot, dry air here. Sometimes, I'll soak them a third time before lights out. Sulcatas are very resistant to shell rot and fungus. I have never seen a single case of shell rot on a sulcata. As long as they are kept warm (75 or warmer) they will not get respiratory infections either. I have tried to keep one too wet and could not induce any sort of problem. You don't have to go crazy, but do keep them well hydrated. Pyramiding has nothing to do with excess protein or too much food. It has everything to do with MOISTURE, HUMIDITY and HYDRATION.


These things are MY opinion and are based on MY experiences with sulcatas and other torts over the last 20 years. My way is not the only way and other people have also raised smooth sulcatas, but it is very rare and can usually be traced back to high levels of humidity and or hydration. Much of this can also be applied to other species, but as of now, sulcatas are the only one that I have kept THIS wet."

How much more clearly could it be stated as just one guy's opinion based on his personal experience?


----------



## John (Mar 15, 2011)

come on tom,you gonna tell me and everyone here i will not be able too find a thread on this forum that shows an example of what i am talking about?


----------



## kbaker (Mar 15, 2011)

kyryah said:


> I don't use super hot basking areas myself. My enclosures for my babies run from 80* ambient (Cherryhead) to 95* on the hot side, 80* on the cool side (Sulcata babies.)
> 
> It has been a couple of years since I had larger Sulcatas, so I will tell you what I have experienced with my Russians.
> 
> ...



For your basking spots, are you using air temps or surface temps? Are you using a thermometer or a temp gun? This all makes a different on what you are saying.

Don't worry about your Star, I have found they are no different than Sulcates. And this is where species comes into play. A hingeback might need the hot spot less than a Sulcata does, but they will use it when they feel the need to.
______________________
Again whether it's the Sun or a basking area, unless they have just eaten or are sick, I don't expect them to be out in the heat if the weather is warm and it is mid-day. Now if they just woke up from a cool night or just had their breakfast they may be hitting the basking area.

One more point, if the basking spot is hotter, then the tortoise will need less time to bask. No little tortoise wants to be exposed for too long with hawks flying around. Get heated and run for cover!!


----------



## John (Mar 15, 2011)

come on one more too break 100 before this dies


----------



## Az tortoise compound (Mar 15, 2011)

My final thoughts on the initial question:

(previously posted and ignored due to bickering)

The benefit of a tortoise having the choice of spending time where it's 110* is he can use it if it chooses to. In my mind, as long as a gradient is provided our animals will travel where they want. I put my faith in the animals instinct (mother nature) knowing more than we do. 



Can anyone tell me the downside of having the option?????
Might my little tortoise become frozen with indecision and cook? NO.


----------



## Kristina (Mar 15, 2011)

kbaker said:


> For your basking spots, are you using air temps or surface temps? Are you using a thermometer or a temp gun? This all makes a different on what you are saying.



Air temps, digital thermometer (Accurite from Walmart)


----------



## kbaker (Mar 15, 2011)

kyryah said:


> kbaker said:
> 
> 
> > For your basking spots, are you using air temps or surface temps? Are you using a thermometer or a temp gun? This all makes a different on what you are saying.
> ...


That means your basking areas are actually warmer then you think.


----------



## John (Mar 15, 2011)

kbaker said:


> kyryah said:
> 
> 
> > kbaker said:
> ...


This is physics Paul. Yes an 85-90 degree basking spot is an 85-90 degree basking spot. And indoors it can ONLY get a tort up to 85-90 degrees. And THAT'S the problem. They want/need to be 100+. Outdoors with an AMBIENT 85-90 they can get MUCH warmer than ambient by sitting in the sun. (Note Scooter at 104.1 on a 67 degree day.) Indoors, if we set the basking temp to 90, they can't get any warmer than 90. Is this making sense? If you put a brick in the sun on an 80 degree day anywhere in the world it will heat up to well over 100+. At my place on a windless day, I'd speculate I could get that brick into the o 150's. Conversely, if you put that same brick under an indoor incandescent light where the basking temp is set to 85, it will heat up to........ wait for it........ 85!!!



Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-why-basking-spot-115-degrees?page=6#ixzz1GiVsE1JX

not according too this


----------



## Saloli (Mar 15, 2011)

i say would it not make the most sence to mimic as closely as possible the average humidity, and temperatures of the native habitats, taking into account of course daily and seasonal variations. such as wet/dry seasons that Sulcutas, and Indian Stars expieriance?


----------



## kbaker (Mar 15, 2011)

squamata said:


> kbaker said:
> 
> 
> > kyryah said:
> ...



Now you are talking tools. There is a difference between using a spot bulb, flood bulb, a normal round bulb, bulb with a dome fixture...


----------



## exoticsdr (Mar 15, 2011)

I'm curious...who believes that ambient air temperatures have anything to do with this?


----------



## Saloli (Mar 15, 2011)

but what if you don't use a thermostat to control your primary heat souce? for example my DBT's basking area gets to about 100 -110F when the ambiant is about 65 (room temp. the cage temp is about the same) note these are just averages taken with an alcohol thermometer after having the thermometer sitting on a piece of driftwood (their basking platform) after about 10 minutes. If I had a point and shoot type thermometer (like the ones used for HVAC) i could get more accurate readings, i probably will get one but for now the alcohol therm. is working fine. o speeking of which have any of you ever seen burns on a turtle or tortoise's shell either plasteron or carapace? it isn't pretty.


----------



## Yvonne G (Mar 15, 2011)

exoticsdr said:


> I'm curious...who believes that ambient air temperatures have anything to do with this?



Not I said the goose!

My little Russians come out as soon as the sun starts shining on the fence at their level in the pen. The ambient air temperature is only about 40 degrees. I don't have a point-and-shoot thermometer, so I'm unable to measure how hot their carapaces get, but its pretty cute to see them all lined up along the bottom of the fence with a back leg and a front leg up on the fence. I'm willing to bet they're higher than 40 degrees.


----------



## exoticsdr (Mar 15, 2011)

I knew I could count on you Yvonne.


----------



## Saloli (Mar 15, 2011)

emysemys said:


> exoticsdr said:
> 
> 
> > I'm curious...who believes that ambient air temperatures have anything to do with this?
> ...



Thats the point i was trying to make with the differance between ambient and sunning area temp. the Russians like EBT are known to be active a low temperatures. I've seen my Boxers active down to about 40f and one of my friend's Russians she has seen them out at about the same temps. though i'm pretty sure the Boxer's heat up alot quicker because of their darker pigments.


----------



## exoticsdr (Mar 15, 2011)

and that is the EXACT point to this entire thread in spite of how it's spun to confuse. If you provide an area in which the tort can reach it's optimum temp, and I dont care if its a sulcata or a Homes Hingeback, it will self regulate. Now, if the tort needs 100+ degrees to properly digest or to fight off a disease and you DON'T provide it, the tort has no way of making it's core temp go up and no chance of properly thermoregulating. This boils down to providing the temp gradient that is so often talked about...do all torts require the same temp gradient..absolutely not. But you cannot dispute, if you provide a temp gradient, even if the high temp is higher than their normal habitat and possibly lethal and the low temp is lower than normal and possibly lethal, the tort will self regulate if given an area in their habitat that they are allowed to do so. It has nothing to do with ambient air temps, it has everything to do with radiant heating, unless we make it so.


----------



## Jacqui (Mar 15, 2011)

exoticsdr said:


> ... the tort will self regulate if given an area in their habitat that they are allowed to do so.



My point was that we often don't give them enough room to do the self regulation and there lies the danger with saying they need such a high temp, in my opinion.


----------



## exoticsdr (Mar 15, 2011)

Jacqui said:


> exoticsdr said:
> 
> 
> > ... the tort will self regulate if given an area in their habitat that they are allowed to do so.
> ...



No argument here. If the tort is unable to escape heat or cold to self regulate, it is detrimental to the tort....that does not take away from the fact that they need to be able to hit their optimum temps.

Some more food for thought, that never got taken seriously last evening. What is the optimum temp? Body Temps: Mammals 98-103 and birds 103-105 (marsupials like my roos a bit lower than other mammals) and all temps even higher when stressed or sick. Wouldn't it make sense that torts need higher core temps than 80, 85 or even 90 to properly digest? Afterall, how many terrestrial species would be able to survive long in such hypothermic conditions. I know, there are always exceptions to the rule: animals that hibernate, but they eventually return to normal.


----------



## onarock (Mar 15, 2011)

Man, Doc, sorry that you took my sarcasitc remark 20 somehting post ago as a literal statement. I thought you sussed it out pretty well according to your post. Don't think others fared as well as you. Well, acutally I think you only took it half literal. I provided Dean and others that cant answer what is the benefit of 110+ plus basking an opportunity to hang themselvs. What I didnt account for is that some would actually take my temp statement seriously. A loaded question that backfired right in my face. Lessons learned
More later.


----------



## Az tortoise compound (Mar 15, 2011)

As Aldabraman says.....Interesting.


----------



## Tom (Mar 15, 2011)

Saloli, this is what I used to say back in the old days, but here's the problem: These torts have natural ranges made up of hundreds or thousands of square miles and containing literally millions of micro habitats. Which microhabitat should we mimic? Should we attempt to mimic the harsh seasonal variations too? We know that torts can SURVIVE harsh weather, but that doesn't mean its good for them. What we are left with is trying to figure out what works and what doesn't in the real world, here at home, in our enclosures. That is what this thread is all about. What works the best.


----------



## DeanS (Mar 15, 2011)

onarock said:


> Man, Doc, sorry that you took my sarcasitc remark 20 somehting post ago as a literal statement. I thought you sussed it out pretty well according to your post. Don't think others fared as well as you. Well, acutally I think you only took it half literal. I provided Dean and others that cant answer what is the benefit of 110+ plus basking an opportunity to hang themselvs. What I didnt account for is that some would actually take my temp statement seriously. A loaded question that backfired right in my face. Lessons learned
> More later.



This might be where an education is in order...much akin to what Neal said yesterday...you know, baby steps and all. It might be my mistake to presume that if you have a 120* basking spot...it's going to add to the ambient temps, as well. One foot away from that basking spot, it maybe 100*...two feet away 90*...because we've all been discussing this for so long, I might have started to err towards the side that it should be common knowledge for all. I NEVER said the entire environment should be 120, but I did say their should be no dry hides! I should point out that I have 2 humid hides and 1 dry hide in my enclosure...so I realize this could have cut down the 'hostility' had I pointed that out at the start of this thread...even though I had brought it to light months ago...'months ago' doesn't do today's newbies much good...unless, like Tom, they have such a quest for knowledge that they go back and read EVERY single post in the FORUM...not feasible. More later!


----------



## gummybearpoop (Mar 16, 2011)

Tom said:


> We know that torts can SURVIVE harsh weather, but that doesn't mean its good for them.



Maybe it is good for them. Animals who are subjected to harsh extremes tend to be hardier. What doesn't kill'em only makes them stronger. People in NY get a heat wave of 100 degrees and start dying. While lot of people in Phoenix hike or play soccer in 120 degree heat..then just have a beer when finished. haha

Anyways, back on topic. I am not a big fan of 115 degree spotlights unless I have some uromastyx or desert iguanas. 

I have seen active baby desert tortoises. Temps are FAR less than 110.
Maybe some people should come looking for animals in the desert to see what you can find in the summertime around noon. Maybe people may understand why you mostly find animals at night, dusk, and dawn in the summer.

People say their sulcatas come out and are active in 110 degree heat. I am sure they do! Maybe it is your presence and them know that you feed them and pet them. These animals know you are the hands that feed them. When I volunteered at the zoo, the galaps/aldabras would come and eat in 115 degree heat. But before they saw me, they were hiding in the shade or mud wallows. 

Ok, gotta go. Hiking. Looking for animals. Note to self: spend more time outside and less time typing on forums. haha


----------



## Balboa (Mar 16, 2011)

Holy poop look at all the fun I missed.... don't check the board one day and you guys have the shootout at the ok corral on me.... well maybe it was a good thing to sit out on.

I'd like to reiterate a few points that were brought up.

1. How temps are measured- this is frequently left out of the "guides" and advice, and much confusion stems from it.

2. What is the "ideal" core temp. Off the top of my head 86-88 is optimal for tort digestion, considerably lower than warmblooded animals. If this is incorrect I apologize, but I know I've seen that a few times.

3. Torts aren't rocks, and torts aren't air. Tom's stating a light set for 80 degrees inside is not like the sun outside is incorrect IMO. Different material react to thermal energy differently, some materials will heat up, while others will stay cool. A torts shell is a very interesting thing, and I've found alot of evidence that points to thermoregulation occuring internally, in the shell. The shell itself has insulating properties and is a poor conductor of heat while the keratin is highly absorptive. My experiments that Paul alluded to mimic this condition with black painted wood.

As some of you may recall my wood actually caught fire with the basking lights set up to heat the basking tile to 100+ degrees.

What prevents the torts shell from reaching those kind of levels is the flowing blood through the carapace. It APPEARS that torts can regulate the flow of blood through their carapace to thermoregulate. There however has to be a limit to how quickly thermal energy can be drawn to the core.

I THINK the point Paul is poorly trying to get at, is that IF the basking light is intense enough the keratin will heat faster than the heat can be drawn to the core, which will undoubtably cause damage to the carapace. Bone begins to suffer damage at 122 degrees fahrenheit. THIS TELLS ME 120 DEGREE BASKS ARE RIGHT OUT. At the very least this will drive off the moisture content in the keratin, causing it to become overly stiff, a POSSIBLE cause of pyramiding. It may be a wiser move to ensure ambient temps are optimal and utilize slightly "cooler" basking temperatures.

I have envisioned a viscious cycle involving basking lights. An ill tort will want to bask more, their natural response to not feeling well. Unfortunatly, the intensely dry micro-climate created by the basking light, coupled with the intensity of the basking light creates a jerky maker. At the least this dehydrates the tort and possibly worse causes tissue damage that the tort must heal from, further driving their feeling ill, so they want to bask even more. Now we have a pyramided, dehydrated tort that can't process their food correctly (not enough fluids) which will in turn lead to MBD and stones as not enough calcium and other nutrients will be coming in to replace the damaged material in the carapace, nor enough water to flush the waste etc..

How do we get around this? The Doc is right, they need to be able to "run a fever" at times. We need to find the point where they can heat up quickly, but no faster than they can absorb the heat, and humidity at that spot needs to be very high.


----------



## John (Mar 16, 2011)

exoticsdr said:


> I'm curious...who believes that ambient air temperatures have anything to do with this?



tom does


----------



## exoticsdr (Mar 16, 2011)

onarock said:


> Man, Doc, sorry that you took my sarcasitc remark 20 somehting post ago as a literal statement. I thought you sussed it out pretty well according to your post. Don't think others fared as well as you. Well, acutally I think you only took it half literal. I provided Dean and others that cant answer what is the benefit of 110+ plus basking an opportunity to hang themselvs. What I didnt account for is that some would actually take my temp statement seriously. A loaded question that backfired right in my face. Lessons learned
> More later.



Rock, again..I stand by my previous statement..I enjoy your postings and though I'm sure we disagree on many things both tortoise and non-tort related,,,,,you always make me think outside my normal box and I appreciate that.





squamata said:


> exoticsdr said:
> 
> 
> > I'm curious...who believes that ambient air temperatures have anything to do with this?
> ...



I'm pretty confident that Tom can and will speak for himself and doesn't need or want you to.


----------



## Saloli (Mar 16, 2011)

Tom said:


> Saloli, this is what I used to say back in the old days, but here's the problem: These torts have natural ranges made up of hundreds or thousands of square miles and containing literally millions of micro habitats. Which microhabitat should we mimic? Should we attempt to mimic the harsh seasonal variations too? We know that torts can SURVIVE harsh weather, but that doesn't mean its good for them. What we are left with is trying to figure out what works and what doesn't in the real world, here at home, in our enclosures. That is what this thread is all about. What works the best.



That microenviroments used are known for a large number of the more common tortoise species mainly because studies have been done in order to help protect them. Those are what I meant when I said mimic. For example leaf litter on the forest floor in a closed canopy terra firme forest in Brazil is relatively easy to do for a yellow foot. or the mediterranian scrub for a herman's with it's dense areas of plant cover and it's open areas. though the Sahal for the Salcutas is a bit harder to replicate because of the size of the animals involved but it can be done. Redfoots are from tropical humid grassland and subtropical semi arid grassland or in a few cases open canopy forest (Bana scrub and Campina) depending on the origin of the individuals or their ancsestors. My point being that of all the microenvironments/ microhabitats in an area the tortoises and turtles only use a few of those availabe. If they weren't selective of the microenvironment they would be evenly distributed over the landscape. There are odd exceptions like Galapagos and Aldabra which are fairly even in most areas of the islands they inhabbit from what i understand.


----------



## onarock (Mar 16, 2011)

Good question Doc...was kinda hoping you might be able to shed some light on this. There has been references to using temp guns to measure the temp of a tortoise shell and this is the be all end all of measuring a tortoises temp. I might ad that just because you are able to read the temp of a tortoise shell doesnt mean its a reflection of a tortoises core temp. My females lay in the afternoon and next time they lay I'm going to measure the temp of the eggs as they are dropping. Dont know what that will prove, but it might give a better understang of core temp.



exoticsdr said:


> So, now the real question is, what optimum temp does the tortoise need to achieve to effectively digest it's food and keep it's immune system effective also? Normal body temps for mammals fall in the range of 99-103 and birds upward of 104-105. What is so unbelievable that a tortoise needs to reach at least as high as a bird to properly digest it's food and provide adequate immune response to fight off disease?





How can I put this nicely.... I'm not surprised



kbaker said:


> I am late on this thread, but I skimmed through it.
> 
> From what I saw, Tom is the closest to having a clue.





Just hope we are all equal in the eyes of the law...



emysemys said:


> If this thread is to continue, then:
> 
> Their are good rules to follow when having a debate.
> 
> ...





 Makes things interesting...dont it?



Tom said:


> I had no idea about Yvonne starting this thread and putting your name on it, but the same thing happened to me the other day and I have no idea who did it. It started with my reply to one of Isa's threads about Canada's laws.





Wait for it ...... 85. If only we were raising rocks. We are not and that statement for tortoises is ...wait for it... not true 





Tom said:


> > Your point 1. Isnt an 85-90 degree basking spot an 85-90 degree basking spot? What does the environment around have to do with that particular spot. If its 85 degrees at my house and the mountain top above my house is 10 degrees its still 85 at my house. You state yourself that it was 67 degrees at your house but your tortoise carapace was 104.1. What I am saying is cant tortoises thermoregulate using basking lamps as well? If its 67 degrees in your house and you provide them with a 90-95 degree basking spot wont their shells reflect similar findings to your outdoor reference? [End Quote]
> >
> > This is physics Paul. Yes an 85-90 degree basking spot is an 85-90 degree basking spot. And indoors it can ONLY get a tort up to 85-90 degrees. And THAT'S the problem. They want/need to be 100+. Outdoors with an AMBIENT 85-90 they can get MUCH warmer than ambient by sitting in the sun. (Note Scooter at 104.1 on a 67 degree day.) Indoors, if we set the basking temp to 90, they can't get any warmer than 90. Is this making sense? If you put a brick in the sun on an 80 degree day anywhere in the world it will heat up to well over 100+. At my place on a windless day, I'd speculate I could get that brick into the o 150's. Conversely, if you put that same brick under an indoor incandescent light where the basking temp is set to 85, it will heat up to........ wait for it........ 85!!!
> >
> ...












On topic and you make a good point. Sorry I didnt give you any smileys Mick... I know you dont need it sugar coated.



Az tortoise compound said:


> My final thoughts on the initial question:
> 
> (previously posted and ignored due to bickering)
> 
> ...


----------



## onarock (Mar 17, 2011)

I agree Jacqui and moreover I would say that an indoor enclosure is the exact opposite of what a tortoise would expect in the wild. In the typical indoor enclosure a tort is encouraged to seek out the heat or bask. Outdoors torts seek shade or cover. Inside goes against their natural instincs. Couple that with what I believe to be a tortoises visual preference and it becomes even more confusing. Outside torts equate bright light with the sun or heat and inside its not allways like that. Some people provide lighting in their enclosures that produce no heat and some people provide heat that produces no light. They associate darker, shrubby, shaded ares with cold or cooler temps and this is also not true indoors. Some heat the humid hide. All in all I think that we are just confusing the heck out of our shelled freinds.



Jacqui said:


> exoticsdr said:
> 
> 
> > ... the tort will self regulate if given an area in their habitat that they are allowed to do so.
> ...





good post Norm. We all should go and do some real herpin out in the desert. You and squamata have some great first hand experience as far as the behavior of reptiles is concerned. This type of experince should not be underestimated and concidered valuable.



gummybearpoop said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > We know that torts can SURVIVE harsh weather, but that doesn't mean its good for them.
> ...





*NAIL MEET HAMMER. GREAT POST*




Balboa said:


> Holy poop look at all the fun I missed.... don't check the board one day and you guys have the shootout at the ok corral on me.... well maybe it was a good thing to sit out on.
> 
> I'd like to reiterate a few points that were brought up.
> 
> ...





I agree... What do you want to know?...



DeanS said:


> This might be where an education is in order...


----------



## Saloli (Mar 17, 2011)

tortoises like any vertebrate (i don't remember if arthropods do it) can increase or decease blood flow to the skin (or in this case the scutes which cover the skin) to increase or decrease core temperatures. simply put the blood gets warmed by the infrared and other forms of radiation (visible u.v.) while in the capilaries in the skin. then the blood is circulated back to the heart then to the lungs then back to the heart and back out to the body tissues. They resrict the heat lost by restricting the blood flow to the capilaries in the skin. though if you want to know core temps for tortoises (with the exception of hinge backs or possibly pancakes) a cloacal temp using a rectal thermometer (i learned this from one of my professors) will give you the best reading without using either implantable thermometers or the kind that can be swallowed.


----------



## onarock (Mar 17, 2011)

Right... I think Balboa put it the best when he stated that the keratin would heat faster than the torts ability to remove that heat, thus damaging the keratin. A point that I agree with. I think the point to this thread is that if there is no clear benefit to extremely hot basking temps, why provide them. I have thought for sometime now that extremely hot basking temps causes damage to the shell, and to fight off the effects of such we have to provide un-natural extremely high humidity to counter act it. 

I find it interesting that those who promote the "swamp" theory use the behavior of hatchling tortoises in the wild to back their theory and then go on to tell us that No One Has Ever Studied Hatchlings In The Wild. That care sheet that Dean refers to as FACT only has 1 Fact in it and its, No one has ever studied hatchlings in the wild (sulcata and leopard)
wait, wait 



Saloli said:


> tortoises like any vertebrate (i don't remember if arthropods do it) can increase or decease blood flow to the skin (or in this case the scutes which cover the skin) to increase or decrease core temperatures. simply put the blood gets warmed by the infrared and other forms of radiation (visible u.v.) while in the capilaries in the skin. then the blood is circulated back to the heart then to the lungs then back to the heart and back out to the body tissues. They resrict the heat lost by restricting the blood flow to the capilaries in the skin. though if you want to know core temps for tortoises (with the exception of hinge backs or possibly pancakes) a cloacal temp using a rectal thermometer (i learned this from one of my professors) will give you the best reading without using either implantable thermometers or the kind that can be swallowed.


----------



## DeanS (Mar 17, 2011)

onarock said:


> I find it interesting that those who promote the "swamp" theory use the behavior of hatchling tortoises in the wild to back their theory and then go on to tell us that No One Has Ever Studied Hatchlings In The Wild. That care sheet that Dean refers to as FACT only has 1 Fact in it and its, No one has ever studied hatchlings in the wild (sulcata and leopard)
> wait, wait



Man, things must be sloooooooooooooooooooooow on the islands. I NEVER stated anything wild hatchlings do as fact! They are theories...presumptions, if you will! What have you given this community...OH! That's right! NOTHING! You simply pick a side and go with them for a day or two,...until you **** them off! Or until they disregard you for the vestige you are!


----------



## onarock (Mar 17, 2011)

Things must be even slower right in your neighborhood. My point is you stated that care sheet as fact. The fact is, it is not. And, you use your assumption of hatchling behavior to back it. Your backing non fact with speculation. What have I given the board.... How about origonal thought. People have stated right here and on many other threads that that I inspire thought. What have you done, but plagairize others words, set yourself apart from the board and belittle thse who dont have as much experience as you, in your eyes? The only ones I have pissed off are the admirers. 



DeanS said:


> onarock said:
> 
> 
> > I find it interesting that those who promote the "swamp" theory use the behavior of hatchling tortoises in the wild to back their theory and then go on to tell us that No One Has Ever Studied Hatchlings In The Wild. That care sheet that Dean refers to as FACT only has 1 Fact in it and its, No one has ever studied hatchlings in the wild (sulcata and leopard)
> ...


----------



## DeanS (Mar 17, 2011)

onarock said:


> Things must be even slower right in your neighborhood. My point is you stated that care sheet as fact. The fact is, it is not. And, you use your assumption of hatchling behavior to back it. Your backing non fact with speculation. What have I given the board.... How about origonal thought. People have stated right here and on many other threads that that I inspire thought. What have you done, but plagairize others words, set yourself apart from the board and belittle thse who dont have as much experience as you, in your eyes? The only ones I have pissed off are the admirers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nothing you say makes any sense! I assume NOTHING! There is a difference between 'assumption' and 'presumption'...and who have I plagiarized? Tom? He and I were doing the same thing before I came to this Forum and longer yet before I met him. I've belittled noone! I don't consider myself better than anyone else! When I jumped on Neal's 'dry hide' post...it was in jest! I don't slam anyone's theories...unless they're senseless (you can take that personally if you wish)!

Mods...I move that *onarock* changes his screen name to *underarock*!


----------



## Jacqui (Mar 17, 2011)

DeanS said:


> onarock said:
> 
> 
> > Things must be even slower right in your neighborhood. My point is you stated that care sheet as fact. The fact is, it is not. And, you use your assumption of hatchling behavior to back it. Your backing non fact with speculation. What have I given the board.... How about origonal thought. People have stated right here and on many other threads that that I inspire thought. What have you done, but plagairize others words, set yourself apart from the board and belittle thse who dont have as much experience as you, in your eyes? The only ones I have pissed off are the admirers.
> ...



You know, I really don't know where to start with your comments, but I will just summarize, your crossing the line here. Go back and read the post Yvonne did about how to debate. Name calling is not allowed and your crossing that line.


----------

