# Deworming



## kimber_lee_314 (Mar 19, 2010)

I have fecal tests done on all my torts twice a year and treat accordingly, but I know many people who regularly deworm their tortoises twice a year for a preventative measure. I'm just curious how many people do this, and would like any thoughts/opinions on the subject.


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## GBtortoises (Mar 19, 2010)

None of the above. I never "de-worm" tortoises as a regular routine. My thoughts and opinions are that I've never seen why it's necessary if a tortoise is healthy. And if a tortoise is healthy why mess with it? Parasites play a role in a tortoise's digestive process and are always present. When a tortoise is stressed they (parasites) can flourish out of control and the animal's digestive system begins to fail. The same can happen when too many parasites have been killed via overmedicating. If someone's tortoise is constantly under stress to the point that it needs regular medication then their husbandry methods should be looked at, not the parasite load. Bottom line to me is: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".


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## moswen (Mar 19, 2010)

i took tula in and got her wormed when i first got her bc she was already 5 inches and at the time (2 yrs ago) i did not know about all the "captive born" and "wild caught" stuff, and her caripice is completely smooth, so i figured she was wild caught but i have never found out bc the guy i bought her from never once answered a phone call or returned an email... "sigh." 

so anyways, i took her that one time, but i have not taken her since, and i have not taken my hatchling sulcatas either, because they're hatchlings, and they've been kept inside since they were born, so i figure they don't have any. i could be wrong though. i will probably get their fecals tested at the end of every summer until they get rather large and have a nice good immune system built up and i can have quite a few years of experience behind my belt regarding them and their habits and personalities, but then i will probably stop doing that as well. i agree with GB, if they're not sick, then they must be fine!


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 19, 2010)

I agree with GBtortoises...I don't deworm...I think it's *mostly* a waste of money. There are exceptions...


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## Tom (Mar 19, 2010)

I agree with Maggie.


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## tortoisenerd (Mar 20, 2010)

I agree with fecal test twice a year and to only treat for parasites if they are present in high amounts (low amounts are ok and normal). Parasite treatments are very harsh on a tort. Both captive bred and wild caught torts alike have parasites, although wild caught are likely to have more and higher amounts. That said, my captive bred tort had medium numbers of coccidia and pin worms in his first year of life which needed treatment! Likely they were passed from his mother, if not from his housing as a hatchling with other torts. I think the people who worm at time intervals tend to be those with many many torts who honestly couldn't afford the time or money to get all the torts fecal tests (which I believe is a mistake because there are many other parasites besides worms, and if you wait for your tort to showing symptoms the case has already gotten very severe). Other people give their tort ground up pumpkin seeds on a regular basis because they believe they have deworming properties. I have not seen any hard evidence on this besides anecdotal, so I would not do this personally. I also think torts should get a vet check up at least when you get them the first time and a couple times as they are growing up, because for new or experienced owners alike, there are things you can miss that an experienced vet can see. Best wishes.


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## matt41gb (Mar 20, 2010)

I think initially a fecal, and a dose of Panacur are ok. Infestation with intestinal parasites are not a good thing. A few ova are perfectly normal in a fecal I suppose. I personally don't de-worm any of my torts since they never show signs of infestation. I say if your tortoise is lethargic, having diarrhea, or not eating... a fecal, and possible treatment are in order. They can reproduce rapidly if the tort's immune system is compromised, thus leading to illnesses. I deal with dogs and cats with intestinal parasites on a regular basis at work. I've seen what an overload of parasites can do to an animal and it's not pretty. If your tort is showing symptoms then get a fecal done, they're not very expensive.


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## tortoisenerd (Mar 21, 2010)

I strongly disagree for waiting until they show symptoms. Parasites have to get rather bad for the tort to show signs of them, which can be dangerous because this weakens the immune system and leaves the tort more susceptible to becoming ill (such as with a RI), and the combo of the two can lead to a deadly condition or at least make it difficult to get the tort well again. The $10-$15 fecal test 1-2 times a year is a lot of peace of mind for me. My tort was showing no symptoms and had what the vet called a moderate case of parasites twice. Yes, we would have not treated if the case was mild. But I wouldn't have wanted to wait until it was severe and he was showing symptoms. Owners of hatchlings and multiple torts should especially be careful. Parasites have life cycles such that they may have low numbers at one test, and high numbers a few months later--which is why there is the need for a repeat test initially (3 months after the first one after acquiring the tort).


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## Yvonne G (Mar 21, 2010)

I'm with Kate on this one. Sometimes your first sign of an infestation is a bubbly nose. Most people don't think of parasites when they see a bubbly nose, and the problem goes undiagnosed, with the keeper giving the tortoise antibiotics for the "respiratory infection" instead of de-wormer for the parasites.


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## cdmay (Mar 21, 2010)

On a newly imported tortoise I would typically quarantine for a full six months. During this time I would examine how they fed and the general condition of their wastes. If there was any lethargy, lack of a good feeding response or hint of diarrhea I would get a fecal done and then treat with Panacur and, or Flagyl. The reason for this is that I have seen new imports do OK for a while only to crash from flagellate infestations that they picked up at the importers or the collector's holding areas. Worms are usually present but unless are very high levels they are not as troublesome as flagellates or other protozoans that diarrhea is often the first sign of.
In addition, I am fortunate in that my vet is a fairly competant and can ID both parasitic worms (actually, their eggs) and protozoans in the direct smear or floats from a fresh fecal sample.
But I would add that once this is done I never repeat the procedure once the animal is doing well. I also agree that a certain level of naturally occurring 'gut fauna' doesn't harm otherwise healthy animals.


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## GBtortoises (Mar 22, 2010)

One of the problems that I've encountered over and over throughout the years is peoples way of thinking about internal parasites and tortoises. People associate the word parasite with "bad". This is basically not true. Parasites are a vitally important part of a tortoise digestive process. They absolutely aid in breaking down foods for the tortoise to better digest and process. The parasites and the tortoise have a very important symbiotic relationship. The parasites live off and help breakdown whatever the tortoise consumes. The tortoise benefits from the aid of parasites breaking down it's food by being able to extract more nutrients and calories from that food. 
If the parasites are eradicated to a level below an efficient population the tortoise will not have the ability to properly digest food and extract nutrients from that food. This often causes food to sit in the gut longer because the intestine, where most of the absorbtion takes place, is backed up with food that has yet to be fully digested. This often causes a tortoise to feel heavy while not eating. Eventually, evey though the tortoise seems full, and active to a point, it will become weaker due to lack of proper nutrient intake and absorbtion. 
The opposite occurs with a tortoise that is highly stressed or ill (as in injury or respiratory distress). The parasite population is then not kept in balance by the tortoises system and takes advantage of the situation by overpopulating. Their goal (the parasites) is like any other living organism-to repopulate their kind. Without the tortoises system at 100% efficency to control the parasites they flourish out of control. This also adds to the tortoises stress level and weakens it's immune system even more. It's situations like this that a captive tortoise needs medication to control the parasite, _but not to wipe out the parasite_! Only to control it until the tortoise is strong enough to begin to do so on it's own again. 
There is no logical reason to periodically "de-worm" a healthy, active tortoise that has a balanced parasitic population. If it didn't the animal wouldn't be healthy and active. Parasites play a very important and vital role in maintaining a tortoises health. If someone is finding that they tortoises are constanly having internal parasite problems, then the tortoises diet should be closely looked at and altered as necessary.
Obviously, it's always important to be vigilant at looking for signs of something being wrong with your tortoise or out of place with it's rountine. This, along with paying close attention to what they're eating, how much and visually inspecting their feces and urine wastes goes a long way in preventing major problems.


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## cdmay (Mar 22, 2010)

GBtortoises said:


> One of the problems that I've encountered over and over throughout the years is peoples way of thinking about internal parasites and tortoises. People associate the word parasite with "bad". This is basically not true. Parasites are a vitally important part of a tortoise digestive process. They absolutely aid in breaking down foods for the tortoise to better digest and process. The parasites and the tortoise have a very important symbiotic relationship. The parasites live off and help breakdown whatever the tortoise consumes. The tortoise benefits from the aid of parasites breaking down it's food by being able to extract more nutrients and calories from that food.
> If the parasites are eradicated to a level below an efficient population the tortoise will not have the ability to properly digest food and extract nutrients from that food. This often causes food to sit in the gut longer because the intestine, where most of the absorbtion takes place, is backed up with food that has yet to be fully digested. This often causes a tortoise to feel heavy while not eating. Eventually, evey though the tortoise seems full, and active to a point, it will become weaker due to lack of proper nutrient intake and absorbtion.
> The opposite occurs with a tortoise that is highly stressed or ill (as in injury or respiratory distress). The parasite population is then not kept in balance by the tortoises system and takes advantage of the situation by overpopulating. Their goal (the parasites) is like any other living organism-to repopulate their kind. Without the tortoises system at 100% efficency to control the parasites they flourish out of control. This also adds to the tortoises stress level and weakens it's immune system even more. It's situations like this that a captive tortoise needs medication to control the parasite, _but not to wipe out the parasite_! Only to control it until the tortoise is strong enough to begin to do so on it's own again.
> There is no logical reason to periodically "de-worm" a healthy, active tortoise that has a balanced parasitic population. If it didn't the animal wouldn't be healthy and active. Parasites play a very important and vital role in maintaining a tortoises health. If someone is finding that they tortoises are constanly having internal parasite problems, then the tortoises diet should be closely looked at and altered as necessary.
> Obviously, it's always important to be vigilant at looking for signs of something being wrong with your tortoise or out of place with it's rountine. This, along with paying close attention to what they're eating, how much and visually inspecting their feces and urine wastes goes a long way in preventing major problems.



Good points. I should have mentioned the only time my vet ever recommends treating 'worms' is when they are at what he calls pathological levels. If their egg cysts are simply present in a fecal float we will do nothing.
I would also repeat that I only do a fecal check when the animal is showing signs of disease, i.e. diarrhea, lethargy and so on.


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