# Wild vs Pet



## smarch (Jan 30, 2015)

I understand tortoises aren't really domesticated like a dog is, but I think many of the ones that live with us are more than just a wild animal relying on instinct. 

We say tortoises come to you when they hear you because you are the "food god" and they want food. Yet many times they can even have food and this still happens. And its kind of against instinct to go up to a giant even if it gives food is it not?

Tortoises who let you scratch their head or chin or shell, there's nothing instinct about that, yet many like it and come to you for it (or in my case put up with it).

There are so many personable tortoises out there, I know it depends on how they're raised and everything, but Nank is too, I didn't raise him, he grew up wild somewhere overseas in a desert, yet he comes to me, lets me pet him, and is personable. 
I genuinely believe many of us who interact with their tortoises as a pet (since I know theres a split in keepers seeing them as wild versus pet, we don't need to get into that I see both sides) have more than just a wild animal that happens to live with them, I believe with being close and interacting with the tortoise that they become a level of domesticated. 

Any agreements or disagreements?


----------



## ZEROPILOT (Jan 30, 2015)

Some folks here spend a considerable amount of time interacting with their tortoises and claim that they are indeed friendly, etc. I sometimes attach a human emotion to the behavior of my tortoises. But, really, It can almost always be linked to an instinctual or mildly learned behavior. I mean, they do come when I call them and even seem to know their names. Though that might be pushing things.


----------



## WithLisa (Jan 30, 2015)

I have seen many tortoises following their owners around. I'm quite sure that's just instinctual behaviour, not a sign of affection, because most of them also follow strangers, dogs, cars or any other moving thing.
My assumption is that wild tortoises only know two kinds of living things: predators and fellow tortoises. They are scared of possible predators and try to hide. If it's not something scary, they run after it to see if it's either a mating partner or a rival. 
Pet tortoises learn not to be scared of humans anymore, so they only show the second behaviour.


----------



## Prairie Mom (Jan 30, 2015)

smarch said:


> I understand tortoises aren't really domesticated like a dog is, but I think many of the ones that live with us are more than just a wild animal relying on instinct.
> 
> We say tortoises come to you when they hear you because you are the "food god" and they want food. Yet many times they can even have food and this still happens. And its kind of against instinct to go up to a giant even if it gives food is it not?
> 
> ...


I agree with you, Sarah and I too hope to build a way of interacting with my tortoise that goes further than food goddess. I hope that my tortoise will learn to trust that I will keep her safe and even recognize that being near me provides all of her necessities and even enjoyable experiences.  --Isn't that what attachment is? a relationship built upon trust/safety and needs being met? I think there is truth in everything that has been posted so far. There are many wise people on this forum. Tortoises are definitely wild animals, but even in my small set of experiences rehabbing wild animals, there is a danger of the wild animals becoming imprinted and then even domesticated. -I have this situation in my own home. Some have been successfully released, but one will have to stay with us forever. I sincerely HOPE my sulcata becomes IMPRINTED LET'S BE A BIG TORTOISE FAMILY!!!


----------



## wellington (Jan 30, 2015)

I don't really know. What I do know, is however I want to think of them, is what I will think. What ever makes you feel good about it, then think it. If they can train Dolphins, monkeys, etc, why not tortoises.


----------



## Tom (Jan 30, 2015)

Just because they become tame, habituated, trained and desensitized doesn't mean they are not a wild animal with wild instincts. Any one of our tortoises, even the CB ones, would survive and do just fine if released into the wild in their native area in a suitable spot.

They have a positive association with us due to the food thing. Add to that with them desensitizing to our movements and size. Then throw in their natural curiosity, and you end up with a pretty nice pet, which is why we all like them. Doesn't mean they are domesticated. Domestication is a whole 'nother thing.

Lots of wild animals make nice pets. Baboons are awesome if handled correctly. I work with a king vulture that is the coolest bird ever. I have pictures of my daughter sitting on a young white rhino that belongs to a friend of mine. We feed carrots to the same friend's elephants. None of this means they are not wild animals.

Want to see how domesticated your pet tortoise is? Put another male tortoise in with him this spring and see what happens.


----------



## motero (Jan 30, 2015)

I don't know if they are tame or wild, but they are all captive bred. The personalities vary greatly among my tortoises, Most are just chill and go with the flow, aren't scared of people and come looking to see if you have food. Two of them act like you are going to eat them every time they see you. And one will look for people to interact with she will leave her favorite food, hide spot, borrow, and follow you around like a loving puppy dog. You can guess who is every ones favorite.


----------



## stojanovski92113 (Jan 30, 2015)

I read in this book I have on Redfoots that tortoises recognize humans faces?! Well I do know in fact that if my husband walks in the tortoise room 95% of the time they don't move or nudge, nothing!! I've snuck to observe many times!! But...when I walk in the room, 95% of the time they will slowly turn around & head towards my direction. Even if they have food. I think maybe they might realize I'm the "food God" & they are hoping that I will add bananas or mazuri to their veggies or something. I try to sneak in the room so I don't disturb them. My husband & I have joked around that my torts don't care for him. But I'm curious if they really do recognize different humans! When I sit outside in the summer with my tortoises, my largest redfoot always comes to me and hides between my legs for a short period & I just scratch & give her head rubs. The other tortoises don't come to me as much as the big one does. Also, if other people are outside, she will also go by them, maybe looking for scratches & head rubs. My other torts could care less. I guess I'm just saying that my largest redfoot is more social than the other torts I have. My smallest redfoot is pretty social too I suppose. But I have no clue on the life of my tortoises before I got them. I often wonder....


----------



## ascott (Jan 31, 2015)

smarch said:


> I understand tortoises aren't really domesticated like a dog is, but I think many of the ones that live with us are more than just a wild animal relying on instinct.
> 
> We say tortoises come to you when they hear you because you are the "food god" and they want food. Yet many times they can even have food and this still happens. And its kind of against instinct to go up to a giant even if it gives food is it not?
> 
> ...




Forced captive animals learn to survive, nothing more-- nothing less.....if they cozy up to the food provider, they get more food....one plus one kinda thing....then again, there is no way I can be convinced that a wild animal would opt to be a forced captive if ever given the genuine choice...but hey, once in the cage--why not make the best of it, what other choice does a wild animal have but to strive to survive with the hope of a chance at the wild....and when that does not work---pace...pace...pace....


----------



## Prairie Mom (Jan 31, 2015)

stojanovski92113 said:


> I read in this book I have on Redfoots that tortoises recognize humans faces?! Well I do know in fact that if my husband walks in the tortoise room 95% of the time they don't move or nudge, nothing!! I've snuck to observe many times!! But...when I walk in the room, 95% of the time they will slowly turn around & head towards my direction. Even if they have food. I think maybe they might realize I'm the "food God" & they are hoping that I will add bananas or mazuri to their veggies or something. I try to sneak in the room so I don't disturb them. My husband & I have joked around that my torts don't care for him. But I'm curious if they really do recognize different humans! When I sit outside in the summer with my tortoises, my largest redfoot always comes to me and hides between my legs for a short period & I just scratch & give her head rubs. The other tortoises don't come to me as much as the big one does. Also, if other people are outside, she will also go by them, maybe looking for scratches & head rubs. My other torts could care less. I guess I'm just saying that my largest redfoot is more social than the other torts I have. My smallest redfoot is pretty social too I suppose. But I have no clue on the life of my tortoises before I got them. I often wonder....


It's become really obvious in my family that my tortoise recognizes us. She is really comfortable with some of my children, other's she avoids. All of my children are extremely well behaved and closely monitored with my animals. It really appears that she has preferences for certain people in my family.


----------



## stojanovski92113 (Jan 31, 2015)

Prairie Mom said:


> It's become really obvious in my family that my tortoise recognizes us. She is really comfortable with some of my children, other's she avoids. All of my children are extremely well behaved and closely monitored with my animals. It really appears that she has preferences for certain people in my family.


Ok so I'm not alone


----------



## Prairie Mom (Jan 31, 2015)

I really enjoyed reading this thread.  All views offered up something for me think about and even ask myself further questions that I'll have to spend some time dwelling on from time to time. Good stuff.


----------



## FLINTUS (Feb 1, 2015)

Tom said:


> Just because they become tame, habituated, trained and desensitized doesn't mean they are not a wild animal with wild instincts. *Any one of our tortoises, even the CB ones, would survive and do just fine if released into the wild in their native area in a suitable spot.*
> 
> They have a positive association with us due to the food thing. Add to that with them desensitizing to our movements and size. Then throw in their natural curiosity, and you end up with a pretty nice pet, which is why we all like them. Doesn't mean they are domesticated. Domestication is a whole 'nother thing.
> 
> ...


I agree with the positive association, completely disagree with having wild mammals as pets, but that's another argument...
However, the statement in bold was what I wished to pick up on. V.generalised, especially from yourself, and we've seen a number of times how hard it is for tortoises from captivity to be released into the wild. It takes a lot of in-situ breeding to get the instincts back, look at what the ACI is doing at the moment, as well as the BCG -who I don't like as an organisation-sponsored release in India I think it was of some species of turtle, not tortoise.


----------



## smarch (Feb 1, 2015)

ascott said:


> Forced captive animals learn to survive, nothing more-- nothing less.....if they cozy up to the food provider, they get more food....one plus one kinda thing....then again, there is no way I can be convinced that a wild animal would opt to be a forced captive if ever given the genuine choice...but hey, once in the cage--why not make the best of it, what other choice does a wild animal have but to strive to survive with the hope of a chance at the wild....and when that does not work---pace...pace...pace....


Oh I guarantee they would never choose to be captive. Although I think that once they are captive they give up on the idea of the wild after a certain point, the captivity becomes the new real, and at the same time most keepers try hard to replicate natural conditions so minus the humans who keep popping up and leaving food on a silver platter many may not even experience much difference.


----------



## WithLisa (Feb 1, 2015)

smarch said:


> most keepers try hard to replicate natural conditions so minus the humans who keep popping up and leaving food on a silver platter many may not even experience much difference.


I'm pretty sure the vast majority of pet tortoises never reach maturity because of wrong husbandry. Very few are lucky enough to live in a large outdoor enclosure with natural conditions...


----------



## ascott (Feb 2, 2015)

> Although I think that once they are captive they give up on the idea of the wild after a certain point, the captivity becomes the new real,



You and I will get along disagreeing with one another on this ....I believe an animal learns to "survive" in any given situation....and that does not equate to accepting the situation.....


----------



## ZEROPILOT (Feb 3, 2015)

Prairie Mom said:


> It's become really obvious in my family that my tortoise recognizes us. She is really comfortable with some of my children, other's she avoids. All of my children are extremely well behaved and closely monitored with my animals. It really appears that she has preferences for certain people in my family.


You are absolutely correct. My tortoises clearly prefer my wife to myself. They actually run towards her. Me, they just look at me and then look away. (Unless I have food.) She is however, better looking than I am....


----------



## Prairie Mom (Feb 3, 2015)

ZEROPILOT said:


> You are absolutely correct. My tortoises clearly prefer my wife to myself. They actually run towards her. Me, they just look at me and then look away. (Unless I have food.) She is however, better looking than I am....


 You're always so funny! I hope your wife gets to read some of your posts!


----------



## Tom (Feb 3, 2015)

WithLisa said:


> I'm pretty sure the vast majority of pet tortoises never reach maturity because of wrong husbandry. Very few are lucky enough to live in a large outdoor enclosure with natural conditions...



This has not been my experience at all. The vast majority do grow up and reach maturity, despite some people providing the "wrong" husbandry. Do the vast majority of pet tortoises in Austria die in their first few years? I was not aware of such a problem. Most of the ones here survive.


----------



## Tom (Feb 3, 2015)

I see a whole lot of speculation about how tortoises "feel" and a whole lot of assuming they are using rational thought, emotions and deductive reasoning techniques.

Does anyone here really think a tortoise sits and ponders the pros and cons of its captive life vs. a life in the wild?

They are simple creatures. They have certain environmental and nutritional needs that must be met. Bigger and better designed enclosures and diets allow them to better meet these needs, but does someone think their tortoise is "happy"? They are not even smart enough to seek out a known warm area on a cold night in some cases. Put an African Monkey in a cold cage and you better believe it will find and be in that warm spot the first night and every night. Put a tortoise in the same cage and it will go sleep in whatever corner is most convenient, and let itself freeze to death. There is not a lot of logic and reasoning going on in those tortoise heads people.


----------



## Tom (Feb 3, 2015)

FLINTUS said:


> completely disagree with having wild mammals as pets, but that's another argument...



Please, oh please start your own thread on this in the debatable section. We will all keep it civil and respectful, but I would love to hear why in your mind it is perfectly fine to keep wild reptiles as pets, but not pet mammals. What about birds? What is the difference between a turtle in a tank and a canary in a cage? Or a turtle in a terrarium? Or a fish in an aquarium? Or a ferret in a... Oh, you get the point.


----------



## FLINTUS (Feb 3, 2015)

Tom said:


> Please, oh please start your own thread on this in the debatable section. We will all keep it civil and respectful, but I would love to hear why in your mind it is perfectly fine to keep wild reptiles as pets, but not pet mammals. What about birds? What is the difference between a turtle in a tank and a canary in a cage? Or a turtle in a terrarium? Or a fish in an aquarium? Or a ferret in a... Oh, you get the point.


Too off-topic for this forum, but as you said in your previous post about a 'lack of thought', there is a big difference in intelligence between reptiles and mammals. Not going to start that debate now though...


----------



## Tom (Feb 3, 2015)

FLINTUS said:


> Too off-topic for this forum, but as you said in your previous post about a 'lack of thought', there is a big difference in intelligence between reptiles and mammals. Not going to start that debate now though...



No no... We have an "Off Topic Debate" section for just this sort of thing. And again, I don't think we have any trolls hanging about at this time, so it could be an entertaining, respectful and insightful conversation where many people, including myself, could learn many things.

I'll respect your decision to decline, but I would love to get further into this in the appropriate area of the forum.


----------



## WithLisa (Feb 3, 2015)

Tom said:


> Do the vast majority of pet tortoises in Austria die in their first few years? I was not aware of such a problem. Most of the ones here survive.


Not only in Austria, but also in Germany and I guess in other European countries too.
In the past it was very common to buy mediterranean tortoises for children, they were kept in little boxes without UV and fed with fruits and dog food. Of course they died soon, but it didn't really matter since they were very cheap.
Nearly everybody I know has had a tortoise once, but not a single one of them has survived.

It has gotten better in the last few years, but still many people buy tortoises without any knowledge and keep them like they did in the past, especially older people or parents who only buy them as a toy for their children. I believe it still happens quite often, but who knows.
I only know that most tortoises I see in animal shelters or at sites like craigslist are suffering from rachitis. It's rare to see a healthy adult pet tortoise, even in commercials and advertisements of pet shops,... they only show rachitic tortoises, maybe people don't even know how a healthy shell looks like?


----------



## FLINTUS (Feb 3, 2015)

Tom said:


> No no... We have an "Off Topic Debate" section for just this sort of thing. And again, I don't think we have any trolls hanging about at this time, so it could be an entertaining, respectful and insightful conversation where many people, including myself, could learn many things.
> 
> I'll respect your decision to decline, but I would love to get further into this in the appropriate area of the forum.


These topics generally don't end well, I know you work with animals in the entertainment business, which again I have an opinion on for non-domesticated species, but I, in general-there are exceptions-disagree with mammals being in captivity, except in a few cases. I'm sure you provide your best for them, but I just don't usually like it-if you want a specific example, dolphins in enclosed aquariums. Probably a slightly British vs American attitude here as well. I suspect more people on TFO would agree with you, than on, let's say Shelled Warriors, as in the UK we banned a lot of this stuff after the disastrous time animals had during the colonial ages, and therefore that attitude is still there. If you want to start a thread I'll PM you about it, but as I said, these threads generally end up in problems...


----------



## Tom (Feb 3, 2015)

WithLisa said:


> ...I see in animal shelters or at sites like craigslist are suffering from rachitis. It's rare to see a healthy adult pet tortoise, even in commercials and advertisements of pet shops,... they only show rachitic tortoises, maybe people don't even know how a healthy shell looks like?




Forgive me. I'm not familiar with the terms "rachitis" or "rachitic". Can you explain what you mean by that. Is that what we call pyramiding over here?

We certainly have our share of ignorant people doing thoughtless things over here too, but I find that to be in the minority over here, thankfully. For every crazy craigslist ad I can think of many more examples of people who take excellent care of their tortoises.

I hope things continue to improve over there.


----------



## Tom (Feb 3, 2015)

FLINTUS said:


> These topics generally don't end well, I know you work with animals in the entertainment business, which again I have an opinion on for non-domesticated species, but I, in general-there are exceptions-disagree with mammals being in captivity, except in a few cases. I'm sure you provide your best for them, but I just don't usually like it-if you want a specific example, dolphins in enclosed aquariums. Probably a slightly British vs American attitude here as well. I suspect more people on TFO would agree with you, than on, let's say Shelled Warriors, as in the UK we banned a lot of this stuff after the disastrous time animals had during the colonial ages, and therefore that attitude is still there. If you want to start a thread I'll PM you about it, but as I said, these threads generally end up in problems...



Thank you for explaining further, and I will respect your desire to not engage on this topic.


----------



## WithLisa (Feb 3, 2015)

Tom said:


> Forgive me. I'm not familiar with the terms "rachitis" or "rachitic". Can you explain what you mean by that. Is that what we call pyramiding over here?


I'm sorry, it's called "Rachitis" in German and according to my dictionary it's the same in English...  I mean MBD caused by lack of UV.
Pyramiding is another common problem, but not as harmful as MBD.


----------



## HLogic (Feb 3, 2015)

Rachitis = Rickets (Vit D deficiency)

Web search will set you free!


----------



## Tom (Feb 3, 2015)

WithLisa said:


> I'm sorry, it's called "Rachitis" in German and according to my dictionary it's the same in English...  I mean MBD caused by lack of UV.
> Pyramiding is another common problem, but not as harmful as MBD.



No problem. Thank you for educating me. 

We do see a small number of MBD cases over here, and its horrid when we do, but luckily the weather is nice enough in most places over here that most tortoises get to be outside and getting some real UV for at least part of the year. For example it is 29 C outside here right now and most of my tortoises are out grazing on weeds in the sun.


----------



## Turtlepete (Feb 3, 2015)

Tom said:


> Please, oh please start your own thread on this in the debatable section. We will all keep it civil and respectful, but I would love to hear why in your mind it is perfectly fine to keep wild reptiles as pets, but not pet mammals. What about birds? What is the difference between a turtle in a tank and a canary in a cage? Or a turtle in a terrarium? Or a fish in an aquarium? Or a ferret in a... Oh, you get the point.



Would love that answered myself. The ignorance in being "okay" with ones own hobby of keeping a wild animal, but opposed to that of another…..Driving wedges between the hobbies is how legislation is furthered, and every ban we are "okay" with guarantees another that we are not.

I do believe that my tortoises can be "happy". I think their happiness is different then mine, however. I see a tortoise sprawled out, all limbs out, obviously feeling completely secure to expose so much of itself, in the sun, head swaying side to side, in a perfect climate, having just finished a good meal that meets it's dietary needs, followed by a comfortable soak….I feel that tortoise is "happy" in that it's living an easy life and fully provided for, to the point that it feels completely secure and "happy" in it's environment. Do I believe they engage in a higher level of reasoning as mammals might, that might further define "happiness"? No. I don't believe they experience anxiety, like we do. I can bet they don't spend time stressing about the future like we humans so often waste our time with. They DO however get stressed; we see this a lot. If they can be stressed by an environment, why can't they be "happy" with one? I have a hard time believing that an animal's health being negatively affected by this stress, as we often see (lowered immunity, going off food) is any sort of "evolutionary advantage" (if you believe in evolution). They get stressed to the point of damaging themselves….So is it such a stretch to believe they can be happy? 
Somethin' to think about. And in the end, I REALLY like to tell people, whether it's true or not, that their cold-blooded reptiles can feel happiness and sadness. Why? Because anthropomorphism makes keepers feel more obligated to properly care for their pets, and more likely to give them proper care, or feel remorse for not providing for them properly.

Hopefully I explained that in a sensible manner. Having a hard time forming coherent thoughts and putting them into words at the moment


----------



## Tom (Feb 3, 2015)

Turtlepete said:


> Would love that answered myself. The ignorance in being "okay" with ones own hobby of keeping a wild animal, but opposed to that of another…..Driving wedges between the hobbies is how legislation is furthered, and every ban we are "okay" with guarantees another that we are not.



Jeez. How old are you? This is spoken like its from the mouth of a 1000 year old wise man. Brilliantly worded. Have you been taking lessons from Yvonne?


----------



## Tom (Feb 3, 2015)

Turtlepete said:


> I do believe that my tortoises can be "happy". I think their happiness is different then mine, however. I see a tortoise sprawled out, all limbs out, obviously feeling completely secure to expose so much of itself, in the sun, head swaying side to side, in a perfect climate, having just finished a good meal that meets it's dietary needs, followed by a comfortable soak….I feel that tortoise is "happy" in that it's living an easy life and fully provided for, to the point that it feels completely secure and "happy" in it's environment. Do I believe they engage in a higher level of reasoning as mammals might, that might further define "happiness"? No. I don't believe they experience anxiety, like we do. I can bet they don't spend time stressing about the future like we humans so often waste our time with. They DO however get stressed; we see this a lot. If they can be stressed by an environment, why can't they be "happy" with one? I have a hard time believing that an animal's health being negatively affected by this stress, as we often see (lowered immunity, going off food) is any sort of "evolutionary advantage" (if you believe in evolution). They get stressed to the point of damaging themselves….So is it such a stretch to believe they can be happy?
> Somethin' to think about. And in the end, I REALLY like to tell people, whether it's true or not, that their cold-blooded reptiles can feel happiness and sadness. Why? Because anthropomorphism makes keepers feel more obligated to properly care for their pets, and more likely to give them proper care, or feel remorse for not providing for them properly.



Okay. Using YOUR definition of happiness for a reptile, I'm in agreement. About anthropomorphism possibly having a positive consequence in your context, I am in agreement with that too.


----------



## Turtlepete (Feb 3, 2015)

Tom said:


> Jeez. How old are you? This is spoken like its from the mouth of a 1000 year old wise man. Brilliantly worded. Have you been taking lessons from Yvonne?



Hardly. Rather a blissfully ignorant 17-year old college student who writes the way they do in hopes of being taken somewhat seriously.


----------



## Dizisdalife (Feb 3, 2015)

Turtlepete said:


> Hardly. Rather a blissfully ignorant 17-year old college student who writes the way they do in hopes of being taken somewhat seriously.


Keep writing like that and you will definitely be taken seriously. That was very well written.


----------



## smarch (Feb 5, 2015)

Turtlepete said:


> I do believe that my tortoises can be "happy". I think their happiness is different then mine, however. I see a tortoise sprawled out, all limbs out, obviously feeling completely secure to expose so much of itself, in the sun, head swaying side to side, in a perfect climate, having just finished a good meal that meets it's dietary needs, followed by a comfortable soak….I feel that tortoise is "happy" in that it's living an easy life and fully provided for, to the point that it feels completely secure and "happy" in it's environment. Do I believe they engage in a higher level of reasoning as mammals might, that might further define "happiness"? No. I don't believe they experience anxiety, like we do. I can bet they don't spend time stressing about the future like we humans so often waste our time with. They DO however get stressed; we see this a lot. If they can be stressed by an environment, why can't they be "happy" with one? I have a hard time believing that an animal's health being negatively affected by this stress, as we often see (lowered immunity, going off food) is any sort of "evolutionary advantage" (if you believe in evolution). They get stressed to the point of damaging themselves….So is it such a stretch to believe they can be happy?
> Somethin' to think about. And in the end, I REALLY like to tell people, whether it's true or not, that their cold-blooded reptiles can feel happiness and sadness. Why? Because anthropomorphism makes keepers feel more obligated to properly care for their pets, and more likely to give them proper care, or feel remorse for not providing for them properly.


 That hit the nail right on the head, wow, you have a real talent for writing!
I knew tortoises don't experience "happy" like we do, but I do believe its possible. You worded that happiness well. I think there are things we see our tortoises do that a tortoise in the wild probably would not do. I mean my franklin sleeps sprawled out head out legs everywhere, a bunch of other tortoises I follow on instagram call it "pinwheeling" Would a tortoise really just walk and then plop down in the middle of nowhere in the wild and sleep all stretched out? I mean I cant say I've just waltzed past a wild tortoise but why would they sleep like that? They'd be eaten, that's why they burrow... although mine definitely sleeps sprawled out more often than burrowing in for the night. Basking all exposed is one thing, I see turtles in my lake all the time basking on a log, but that's alert and awake. Even with cats and dogs, they're not going to sprawl out and sleep unless they feel at least secure. I've seen my cat go from being a stay sleeping inside upright and any practically at the ready to run or fight, to now being safe inside practically sleeping on his back twisted like a pretzel. And Nank, coming from the petstore, but I guess that probably goes for any tort settling into a new home, he burrowed practically to china in his tank every night to sleep... and now he'll sprawl out anywhere he stops and sleep, and if I walk by at night (not uncommon since I have stomach issues and wake up in the middle of the night and need to sit up and much on tums or sip some water) he'll just look up, half glare at me then put his head right back to sleep (I know its not "glaring" mostly just looking: I'm highly guilty of the applying human emotions thing)
And I think for a reptile maybe security is happiness, always having food, always having the temperatures needed, always access to water, even though they may not know it; protection from predators. Seems like captive reptiles are "living the dream" when people give them all their requirements.


----------



## Tom (Feb 5, 2015)

smarch said:


> Seems like captive reptiles are "living the dream" when people give them all their requirements.



Well that is definitely how I see it. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees.


----------



## ascott (Feb 5, 2015)

FLINTUS said:


> These topics generally don't end well, I know you work with animals in the entertainment business, which again I have an opinion on for non-domesticated species, but I, in general-there are exceptions-disagree with mammals being in captivity, except in a few cases. I'm sure you provide your best for them, but I just don't usually like it-if you want *a specific example, dolphins in enclosed aquariums. Probably a slightly British vs American attitude here as well. I suspect more people on TFO would agree with you, than on, let's say Shelled Warriors, as in the UK we banned a lot of this stuff after the disastrous time animals had during the colonial ages,* and therefore that attitude is still there. If you want to start a thread I'll PM you about it, but as I said, these threads generally end up in problems...




I am laughing a little aloud....I have a couple people on "ignore" status and when I read this posting I am certain that you are hearing crap from one of them...as for the British vs American attitude, I am an American (4 th generation Irish to be exact) and the thought of a Dolphin or Whale imprisoned in a fish bowl churns my gut..... animals in these situations in current day don't have it any better than those in days gone past...regardless of all of the human fluff we try to dish out....and if you are indeed in a conversation with the member I believe you are....take my word for it--there are many here who find the garbage spewed a bit boorish, contrary to what wares are peddled from rickety old wagons....there are many here that agree with you...anyways, I am off now---lol...now get ready for the "lashings" tossed my way after my comments--I love the "ignore" button *maniacal laughter inserted here*....just keep focused on the forum and the purpose it was set up for---to discuss and help one another by ALL members offering up their experiences and information....toodles and peace out


----------



## Gillian M (Mar 27, 2015)

wellington said:


> I don't really know. What I do know, is however I want to think of them, is what I will think. What ever makes you feel good about it, then think it. If they can train Dolphins, monkeys, etc, why not tortoises.


 I do see your point, but I've have my Greek tort for almost four years and tried to train it not to entre one of the rooms of the flat, and no way... it is the one and only room that my tort wants to entre! "Forbidden fruit is the sweetest," is it not. I personally don't believe that torts can be trained like other pets/animals-no offence to you Wellington. Please do not take this personal, ok? Thank you.


----------



## Gillian M (Mar 27, 2015)

ascott said:


> You and I will get along disagreeing with one another on this ....I believe an animal learns to "survive" in any given situation....and that does not equate to accepting the situation.....


 I agree with that Ascott. Adapting to an environment does not mean a human being or an annimal likes it.

For that matter, I live in a flat with my Greek tort. When it's nice and sunny I take it out for "a walk." Nobody can imagine how much it enjoys it out there in the wild. This confirms what you said, and of course there is an exception to each and every rule.


----------



## WithLisa (Mar 27, 2015)

Gillian Moore said:


> I personally don't believe that torts can be trained like other pets/animals


Why not? I think every animal can be trained with appropriate methods. Not long ago I had to spend a whole day training fruit fly larvae (of course it worked, but it was boring as hell... ).


----------



## Gillian M (Mar 27, 2015)

WithLisa said:


> Why not? I think every animal can be trained with appropriate methods. Not long ago I had to spend a whole day training fruit fly larvae (of course it worked, but it was boring as hell... ).


 What you mentioned in your alert makes sense: we should be able to train any animal. After all, they have a..*brain* and a *nervous* *system*. However, I have tried to train my beloved Greek tort not to entre one of the rooms of my flat, but....*no* *way* it is (or rather, was) the one and only room it wanted to entre. I even posted a thread called: "Training A Tort," at the time. I tried time and once again but didn't get anywhere, so I stopped: I didn't want to annoy the poor little thing. (Mind you, I'm an extremely patient person). One thing I'm quite sure of is that torts can be so but  so ...stubborn! Agree?


----------



## WithLisa (Mar 27, 2015)

If it didn't work, you must have used the wrong method.


----------



## Gillian M (Mar 27, 2015)

WithLisa said:


> If it didn't work, you must have used the wrong method.


 Maybe. Do you by any chance know how one can train a tort to do/not to do certain things? If so, I'd very much appreciate your informing me. Research was of no help whatsoever. Thanks a lot in advance your help.


----------



## WithLisa (Mar 27, 2015)

Well, depends on what you want to train. To do:reward with food. Not to do: make it uncomfortable.


----------



## Gillian M (Mar 27, 2015)

WithLisa said:


> Well, depends on what you want to train. To do:reward with food. Not to do: make it uncomfortable.


 Thank you so much your prompt reply as well as your help.

Let us say, if I wanted to go back to training my tort not to entre on of the rooms, while it is roaming around the place. (I know that a large majority of the members in the forum don't approve of allowing a tort to roam around. They'd rather one keeps one's tor in its enclosure. But that's besides the point).

Once again, thank you so much your help. Appreciate it.


----------



## WithLisa (Mar 27, 2015)

In a corner of my enclosure I have a few not so healthy plants. Not toxic, but the torts shouldn't eat them every day, so I surrounded them with an uncomfortable zone (I put a row of small tiles around, so it's a smooth ground without coverage). My torts avoid to go over that border.

But in your case it's difficult because the whole flat is an uncomfortable zone.


----------



## Gillian M (Mar 27, 2015)

WithLisa said:


> In a corner of my enclosure I have a few not so healthy plants. Not toxic, but the torts shouldn't eat them every day, so I surrounded them with an uncomfortable zone (I put a row of small tiles around, so it's a smooth ground without coverage). My torts avoid to go over that border.
> 
> But in your case it's difficult because the whole flat is an uncomfortable zone.


 Thanks very much you help anyway.


----------



## tartagon (Nov 7, 2015)

I believe tortoises do not function based solely on instincts, but learned behaviour too. When they come to you, a giant in their eyes, they are doing so because they have learnt that you are not a threat and that good things normally come from you. This has made you more than just a 'food god' to them but also a good creature in general. I'd even say they "like" your presence.

This reminds me of an interesting article I read a couple years ago about instincts. In short, it discussed how knowledge cannot be stored in genes to pass onto the brain as instincts. The only instincts are simple involuntary motor movements like chicks pecking through eggshells. Every other action beyond that is refined through learning.

Excerpt:
_"Thinking that innate knowledge brings about the harmony between an organism and its environment is committing a conceptual, homunculus fallacy, for there is no such thing as storing knowledge in the brain or in the genome. Whether an animal knows what it does depends on what the animal can do. Instinctive behaviour is at first displayed unhesitatingly and is species-specific, but may be modified or controlled by animals when they start using their senses, become self-moving creatures starting to explore the world, and when their intellect and will develops as the result of maturation and learning."_


----------

