# Protein and Pyramiding



## Neal (Apr 23, 2011)

I've been researching a lot lately about tortoise anatomy, functions of internal organs and the like. One thing I have been searching for and can't seem to find is how did pyramiding in tortoises become associated with a high protein diet? Most of us who have been at it for awhile, know that this was basically the only published cause for pyramiding until a few years ago. 

The critics of high protein diets will say that protein is hard on the kidneys and liver, so how does this then create pyramiding in the tortoise? The concept of high protein and pyramiding had to have come from somewhere or some research. Anyone know the origins?


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## Yvonne G (Apr 23, 2011)

Many, many years ago (did I say "many?"), it used to be common practice to feed tortoises dog food kibble. I THINK, but I don't know for sure, that when the sulcatas came to our country and started growing pyramided, the dog food was suspected as the culprit. Because after that "they" started telling us dog food was a no-no and too much protein caused pyramiding.


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## bikerchicspain (Apr 23, 2011)

I havent got a clue, maybe it is due to the fact that too much protein speeds up the growth hence the pyramids.

Apart from that i cant think of anything, maybe its one of those myths like torts don't need to drink as they get there water from their food!!!  :shy:


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## Tortuga_terrestre (Apr 23, 2011)

I was just talking about this very topic with another member.... My yard is split into two sections one side for the tortoises and other for the dogs. Well My russian manages to escape and goes into canine territory and eats the DOG FOOD!!!!!!..I am currently trying to tortoise proof the fence.. How harmful is the dog food? She is healthy as can be...No pyramiding.


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## Tom (Apr 23, 2011)

I don't have any "sources" to cite, but here is my opinion: Protein does cause them to grow faster. So if you have one with a pattern of growth set for pyramiding (like we all did in our beef jerky maker set-ups up until just a few years ago) it would pyramid even faster on a high protein diet. On a lower protein diet they grew, AND pyramided, at a slower rate. My adult sulcatas demonstrate this to a "T". Very slow growth and the only "protein" they ever have had would be the small amounts contained in leafy greens, grass and weeds, yet they still pyramided. Back in the old days, the ones fed the dog food grew and pyrimided more than ones that were not fed that sort of stuff.

By contrast if they have a pattern of growth set for smoothness, like my babies from last May, it does not matter if they grow fast or slow, there is no pyramiding either way. Those babies started getting Mazuri after about six months, so around five months ago, and even though they are growing "fast", still no pyramiding.


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## Baoh (Apr 23, 2011)

Protein is not hard on a healthy liver and healthy kidneys.

Perhaps it was (falsely) causally associated with keratin in scute overgrowth, thereby imagined to drive pyramiding.

Protein helps drive growth. That can be in superior or inferior form, depending upon circumstances.

I my at-home experiments with Testudo species (primarily Hermann's) of years ago, a high-protein diet caused faster growth regardless of quality. If access to light, minerals, and moisture were in abundant supply, everything was gravy. When animals would come to me with some pyramiding already, there was sometimes better new growth and sometimes not. It depended on the individual animals in my experiences.

I encourage my animals to ingest protein, although I arrange this through vegetable sources unless it's a temperate or rain forest animal. In the latter cases, I provide an occasional animal source here and there, although I am not sure it matters too much.

I have never been a proponent of imposing artificially slow growth rates, either.


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## John (Apr 23, 2011)

emysemys said:


> Many, many years ago (did I say "many?"), it used to be common practice to feed tortoises dog food kibble. I THINK, but I don't know for sure, that when the sulcatas came to our country and started growing pyramided, the dog food was suspected as the culprit. Because after that "they" started telling us dog food was a no-no and too much protein caused pyramiding.



I think yvonne hit the nail here it could be a folk tale as there have been many of those in the reptile world over the years,especially before the internet, back when information was passed word of mouth. We can all see how many opinions and interpretations of info there are on this forum alone, I have to wonder how many people were getting only some of the info or the wrong interpretation of info back before the internet.


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## Mao Senpai (Apr 23, 2011)

Dog food or too much protein can cause Renal failure too no?


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## DeanS (Apr 23, 2011)

Not neccesarily. As long as they are healthy and staying hydrated, there shouldn't be a problem. I picked up a bag of Grassland from Cory a couple months back...and when it's gone...that's it! I'm gonna stick with Mazuri as my sole dietary source...of course, they'll also get cactus daily and all the grass and weeds they can graze.


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## GBtortoises (Apr 23, 2011)

I actually doubt that the "theory" did come from any research. I recall it being "assumed" back in the day that protein was the cause of pyramiding but I never recall seeing anything but laymen articles about it, never and bonifide research. I think this simply came from the fact that very early on in the reptile hobby people were feeding tortoises, turtles and lizards human and other animal foods such as canned meats (dog and cat foods), boiled eggs, egg shell, breads soaked in milk. Most with the assumption that these foods were providing necessary essentials to the animals diet like calcium, fiber and protein. Basically some of the essentials that human's required. Keep in that 25-30 years ago little of the technology or knowledge that is present today was available. If it was, it was poorly understood, not able to freely and rapidly dispersed as it is today and for the most part, reptiles were still considered by most as "disposable" pets. 
I think protein became the bad guy primarily when it began to be realized that the majority of tortoise species probably don't consume the large volume of protein that was being fed to them in captivity. Tortoises becoming bumpy = the ingredient in their captive diet that they wouldn't normally get so much of in the wild = _protein bad!_

I'm not so sure that protein even today is off the hook just yet. No one seems to feed the copious amounts of it to tortoises that were being fed back in the day. But I think it can be a contributing factor to accelerated growth deformities when other care requirements are lacking. Other requirements such as adequate hydration, over use of vitamins, excessive constant heat and lack of a large enough area for mobility. I'm not blaming protein solely, just saying it may be a contributing factor in relation to incorrect growth when the other requirements are lacking.

Personally, I do not monitor, nor am I concerned about the protein quantities in the foods that I feed my tortoises. And I feed them some foods that are supposedly high in protein. To begin with, like any living creature with muscle tissue, they absolutely do require protein in their diet in order to stay healthy. It is impossible to cut out protein and still feed a tortoise a balanced, healthy diet. If the other care requirements are met I believe that it is extremely difficult, if possible at all, to "overdose" a tortoise by feeding it the protein that is contained in the foods we make regularly available to them. If those other requirements aren't meant then the protein _might_ be a contributing factor (not thee factor) in accelerated growth deformities, but not necessarily pyramiding.

I believe that Richard Fife nailed the coffin shut on the cause of pyramiding with his experiment and subsequent article. I'm looking at a paper copy of it now. It may still be able to be found at: www.ivorytortoise.com/information/documents/pyramiding_in_tortoises.html


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## John (Apr 23, 2011)

GBtortoises said:


> I actually doubt that the "theory" did come from any research. I recall it being "assumed" back in the day that protein was the cause of pyramiding but I never recall seeing anything but laymen articles about it, never and bonifide research. I think this simply came from the fact that very early on in the reptile hobby people were feeding tortoises, turtles and lizards human and other animal foods such as canned meats (dog and cat foods), boiled eggs, egg shell, breads soaked in milk. Most with the assumption that these foods were providing necessary essentials to the animals diet like calcium, fiber and protein. Basically some of the essentials that human's required. Keep in that 25-30 years ago little of the technology or knowledge that is present today was available. If it was, it was poorly understood, not able to freely and rapidly dispersed as it is today and for the most part, reptiles were still considered by most as "disposable" pets.
> I think protein became the bad guy primarily when it began to be realized that the majority of tortoise species probably don't consume the large volume of protein that was being fed to them in captivity. Tortoises becoming bumpy = the ingredient in their captive diet that they wouldn't normally get so much of in the wild = _protein bad!_
> 
> I'm not so sure that protein even today is off the hook just yet. No one seems to feed the copious amounts of it to tortoises that were being fed back in the day. But I think it can be a contributing factor to accelerated growth deformities when other care requirements are lacking. Other requirements such as adequate hydration, over use of vitamins, excessive constant heat and lack of a large enough area for mobility. I'm not blaming protein solely, just saying it may be a contributing factor in relation to incorrect growth when the other requirements are lacking.
> ...



outstanding post


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## ALDABRAMAN (Apr 23, 2011)

I often wondered about the same thing!


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## Neal (Apr 23, 2011)

Baoh said:


> I my at-home experiments with Testudo species (primarily Hermann's) of years ago, a high-protein diet caused faster growth regardless of quality. If access to light, minerals, and moisture were in abundant supply, everything was gravy.



This is something I have come across a lot in researching this. It seems the high protein was to blame for pyramiding, when the tortoises that were being observed were not given adequate hydration, minerals, etc...

Good post GB! It really all boils down to good husbandry in all respects.

I'm satisfied with the responses, explains why I couldn't find anything.


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## kbaker (Apr 24, 2011)

Neal said:


> I've been researching a lot lately about tortoise anatomy, functions of internal organs and the like. One thing I have been searching for and can't seem to find is how did pyramiding in tortoises become associated with a high protein diet? Most of us who have been at it for awhile, know that this was basically the only published cause for pyramiding until a few years ago.
> 
> The critics of high protein diets will say that protein is hard on the kidneys and liver, so how does this then create pyramiding in the tortoise? The concept of high protein and pyramiding had to have come from somewhere or some research. Anyone know the origins?



There are at least two reasons here....
First, if the kidneys are having issues with protein, there is probably a hydration issue which will cause pyramiding. So, lower the protein intake to not overload the ill kidneys and it appears as if the pyramiding is improving. And this leads to the second reason, when you feed a higher amount of protein, the tortoise will normally grow faster. Some people mistook this as faster pyramiding only. The truth is, if the tortoise is pryramiding (for whatever the reason), the tortoise will continue to pyramid until the conditions are corrected. If the conditions are right for not pyramiding, the tortoise will not pyramid. The speed of growth does not affect this.

So, if your tortoise is pyramiding, I would suggest to lower the protein to figure out what is needed to correct it. Once the conditions are corrected, increase the protein to a balanced level (whatever that is).


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## bikerchicspain (Apr 24, 2011)

Could pyramids be hereditary also, Has anyone had hatchlings that have come from parents with pyramids,

Just curious, if it could be a factor


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## kbaker (Apr 24, 2011)

bikerchicspain said:


> ...Has anyone had hatchlings that have come from parents with pyramids,



I would say a large percentage of CB tortoises come from pyramided tortoises. Look at CB Leopards - it's hard to find adults that are not pyramided. Only recently, tortoise keepers have been raising tortoises to adults with minimum pyramiding in large enough numbers to start seeing breeding adults that are not highly pyramided. (Smooth imports would be cheating? )

Even though some tortoises pyramid more than others under the same conditions, I don't believe it is hereditary.


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## Neal (Apr 24, 2011)

bikerchicspain said:


> Could pyramids be hereditary also, Has anyone had hatchlings that have come from parents with pyramids,
> 
> Just curious, if it could be a factor



I don't think heredity has much to do with pyramiding. I have a female leopard that is severely pyramided, but all her hatchlings so far are perfectly smooth...they're still too young to put it to rest though. I've seen plenty of pyramided tortoises that came from smooth shelled parents. I'm not a biologist or anything, but it would seem if heredity played any role it would have to work both ways.


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## Tom (Apr 24, 2011)

I also agree with Kevin and Neal that heredity probably does not have much to do with pyramiding. My EOP threads both demonstrate this.

GB, I think that was an extremely well worded and succinct post. Thank you very much for elaborating on the topic so well for us. I also agree with it wholeheartedly. I don't know how fast you type, but that would have taken me at least an hour to type out. So thank you for giving us so much of your time.


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## GBtortoises (Apr 24, 2011)

I don't believe that there is any validity whatsoever that pyramiding is hereditary.

P.S.-Tom-I learned to type the "old fashion way", in high school typing class on a rat-a-tat typewriter starting with my fingers on the "home row", so a computer keyboard is a breeze! And to think I was only taking that class because I needed a credit, not because I really wanted to learn to type! Now if my mind were able to actually keep up with my fingers as I typed, I'd be accomplishing something!


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## Balboa (Apr 25, 2011)

Great Thread,
I've never seen any of the "original" documentation either.
The concept as best I understand it was touched on earlier. Originally torts were fed high protein diets, and as keratin is composed of protein, it was believed that excess scute material would be grown, causing an uplift of the scute. Its a logical conclusion, it only falls apart when you realize that the bone itself is pyramided and the scute material remains quite thin.

Protein isn't "out of the woods" though. In Andy Highfields most recent publicized talk on pyramiding, he brings up the possibility that even an only slightly "too thick" scute would be too inflexible to form correctly as the carapace grows, especially if coupled with low humidity.

As to kidneys, I think it would be a good idea to cut back on protein in an animal suspect of experiencing kidney trouble.

I agree with everyone, that as usual, GB put it all very well.


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## matt41gb (May 19, 2011)

I believe that pyramiding occurs when a tortoise does not get to live a normal life. I believe it's caused by many things such as, lack of humidity (living inside), dehydration, poor diet, MBD, stress, nothing to rub the shell smooth, overfeeding, underfeeding, ect.... We cannot properly mimic their natural habitat, so it's hard to prevent pyramiding. I think we're focusing on just diet way too much. It's a lot of things combined, sometimes it's hard to look at the bigger picture. 

-Matt


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## onarock (May 19, 2011)

I agree and Balboa and GB make some good points as well. Its a total package. Over compensating one or two aspects of husbandry to get a smooth shell MIGHT be hiding other issues. Ive seen some pics of tortoises on here where one aspect is over compensated with beyond "natural" husbandry technique and what I'm seeing is reverse pyramiding, raised scute at the margin.



matt41gb said:


> I believe that pyramiding occurs when a tortoise does not get to live a normal life. I believe it's caused by many things such as, lack of humidity (living inside), dehydration, poor diet, MBD, stress, nothing to rub the shell smooth, overfeeding, underfeeding, ect.... We cannot properly mimic their natural habitat, so it's hard to prevent pyramiding. I think we're focusing on just diet way too much. It's a lot of things combined, sometimes it's hard to look at the bigger picture.
> 
> -Matt


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## SalSA (May 27, 2011)

I can't find the source where I read it (looking around for it) but I do remember a paper that said pyramiding was due to low humidity levels.


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## Neal (May 27, 2011)

SalSA said:


> I can't find the source where I read it (looking around for it) but I do remember a paper that said pyramiding was due to low humidity levels.



That info is everywhere now adays. Most people seem to subscribe to that theory.


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## jobeanator (May 27, 2011)

this is a interesting thread.. ive talked and asked my biology professor who is also a ecologist, and also the reptile keepers ive interned and worked with and they both came to different theories. My keeper ive worked with at the zoo, which has 0.2 radiated tortoises have slight pyramiding. The cornell vets that also come down to regularly check on them believe it was a hydration problem. Apparently, before the tortoises had arrived at the zoo i interned at, the pyramiding was worse. They believe now with also a change in diet and a constant supply of water has helped stop the affects of pyramiding. My professor didnt have a definite answer, but believes that obviously hydration, diet and excerise play a role in this, and also the sun too. We had looked at the struture in a pyramided tortoise shell compared to a tortoise with slight to no pyramiding shell and it was unreal how different it is. I honestly dont think youll find one correct answer, as there are many many different theories and possible answers.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jun 15, 2011)

Baoh said:


> Protein is not hard on a healthy liver and healthy kidneys.
> 
> Perhaps it was (falsely) causally associated with keratin in scute overgrowth, thereby imagined to drive pyramiding.
> 
> ...



What do you consider being the best protein for European tortoises, specifically the Easterrn Hermann's?

Thanks in advance.


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