# Commercial diets....



## ArkansasKelly (Jul 25, 2008)

I know there has been many debates about the use of commercial diets so I thought I would start one here.

Do you use commercial diets with your torts? If so, what type of tortoise are you feeding and what diet it use? Is the commercial food the main diet or just a suppliment? Those would just be a few questions to start with.

My own story pertaining to Repcal tortoise pellets and a sulcata.

My first ever tortoise was a 4" sulcata. The internet at that time was not very helpful as far as diets went so I consulted my vet. He was a big believer in Repcal tortoise pellets so he told me to feed that.

Okay, so I left pellets in front of this sulcata 24/7 and would occasionaly give greens so he could eat something different. To make a long story short, a year later, he was, I beleive 9" long. By the time I sold him, which was 2 years later, he was, if I remember correctly, 19" and 50lbs. Those figures may be off, but it is close.

Needless to say, the commercial diet made him grow FAST, but there was never any health issues to speak of. Very minimal pyramiding and he was never sick. Of course, I have learned since then never to leave it in the pens all day and all night. 

What is the moral of that story, there isn't one, I just wanted to tell it.

ARKelly


----------



## agiletorts (Jul 25, 2008)

Are there long term health issues with feeding commercial diets which caused your tortoise to grow unnaturally fast? Maybe there are none. But I still prefer to feed natural foods to my tortoises.


----------



## stells (Jul 26, 2008)

I can't justify using a commercial diet, i can find enough variety feeding weeds and edible plants to supply my tortoises with a good diet so i don't feel the need to use pellets. I am comfortable with the diet i am feeding and all my tortoises seem to be thriving on it, also its free. Yes a good variety of weeds and plants is needed but i do like a challenge and just soaking a few pellets and throwing them in doesn't do it for me, i get a great deal of satisfaction knowing they are enjoying food that i either grew or picked myself.


----------



## ArkansasKelly (Jul 26, 2008)

agiletorts said:


> Are there long term health issues with feeding commercial diets which caused your tortoise to grow unnaturally fast? Maybe there are none. But I still prefer to feed natural foods to my tortoises.



From what we could see, no, there was no health issues, but as far as long term, I have no idea. I lost touch with the people who bought her and that was over 9 years ago.

Stells: Well said!

ARKelly


----------



## terryo (Jul 26, 2008)

I can deffinately understand Kelly's (stells) poiint of view, but, what about people who don't have access to greens and natural food in the winter? I am lucky that where I live there are many speciality stores that carry all kinds of greens and fruit in the winter. Also what about people who live where there is harsh weather in winter months and can't get to stores to buy greens, and fruit that is needed? What about the people who have colonies of tortoises and can't spend time preparing all this food? Just a thought to add to this.


----------



## Crazy1 (Jul 26, 2008)

I think there are pros and cons to any diet, commercial or fresh depending on where it is coming from. Natural diets would of course be the best but most of us can't raise what they would normally eat in the wild year round and those that do not hibernate do need to eat (I do well growing things outside but inside I have no room and a black thumb). Most greens grown for human consumption has chemicals and or fertilizers. Reading the list of ingredients in most commercial foods, for tortoise or human consumption is mind boggling for me. Chemicals, things I can't even pronounce. Plus things like Alfalfa and corn that is not good but in Mazuri tort food. Corn is not good yet it is in Pretty Pets plus oats. It can be very confusing. Do these commercial Tort food makers get organic foods or are their chemicals and fertilizers in those foods as well? 
I, like Kelly (stells) grow my own organic food for the torts. Winters are a little tougher than spring or summer but I wonder if they are getting the amount of vitamins and minerals they need. Yes I supplement but I still worry. They seem healthy and happy. But I also know that things like Grape leaves and mulberry leaves are gone in winter. So this year I am going to try and dry some to help supplement. I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t think there is a right or wrong way. I think each and every one of us must decide for ourselves what works for us and our torts.
I think the driving force is partly;
What is convenient for some
What is liked by some
What is available for some
What is time (or less time) consuming for some
And what type of tort or the amount of torts you have.

I love to grow, pick, and chop up their food daily for them. It gives me great pleasure. I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t mind getting up an hour early to do this. 
I do feed the DT some Mazuri occasionally to help supplement their diet. But they graze and eat grape leaves and Mulberry leaves and natural desert plants I have bought and provide them with daily. I do not chop their food I simply cut off a small branch and they do the rest. Am I doing harm by feeding them Mazuri? I hope not. I do not feed this to my hatchlings, am I doing them harm by not feeding them Mazuri? Who knows for sure? Not I all I can do is my best and that is what I try and do for my torts. 
And I still wonder if Mazuri is good for my Pomeranian? I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t figure it will hurt him but putting on weight may be a problem.


----------



## SleepyWilly (Jul 27, 2008)

Well assuming that green diet is best is wrong, you have to look at them as equals and base your decision on that. The fact is keepers can control the amount of nutrients and vitamins much better with the pellet diet. They know exactly what vitamins and minerals and nutrients there tortoises are eating. Its a much better way than assuming or making educated guesses with greens. Now I'm not advocating the use of pellets, in fact I think i will probably use them especailly during the winter, but more as a supplement than full blown just there whole diet. And people who have a lot of tortoises its excellent, hours of preparation is not needed.


----------



## stells (Jul 27, 2008)

i was just wondering what everybody thinks of a green diet when they say that, what do you think a green diet consists of? i.e lettuce, cabbage, because if its that mine is quite different. Sleepywilly i can't see where anyone has said a green diet is best, it depends on what green diet your feeding. I have a few tortoises and like the preparation it takes to feed them, maybe some can't be bothered with it but for me it works, i have tortoises growing well and smooth and have never had any major health problems with any of mine and am yet to suffer a loss for me that speaks for itself


----------



## SleepyWilly (Jul 27, 2008)

"Natural diets would of course be the best" from the post above me, and by natural diet i mean weeds, fruit if applicable, natural home grown veggies all the organic produce they can shovel down there throats. I never said one was better than the other, in certain situations one can prove the easier option to choose, and that is fantastic that you have not lost a tortoise yet.


----------



## JustAnja (Jul 27, 2008)

I chose to use Mazuri quite a bit this winter. We had 108 inches of snow for the season, it came in late October and didnt really leave except for a few days here and there until early April. I had no access to weeds until they started showing up in June. The dandelions that I ordered from the local grocer werent all that great, and other than driving an hour into Milwaukee to hit the Whole Foods store my guys got mostly organic Spring Mix and Mazuri this winter with the occasional winter squash and some pumpkin. Occasionally on my outings I found cool stuff like organic Chickweed at the Public Market which was grown for juicing but I was more than happy to pick it up for the torts.  

Im moving back to the south in a couple of weeks and my outdoor season will be quite a bit longer than it was up here so the torts will get to enjoy weeds longer than last year but I will still feed Mazuri 1-2 times per week. All of my torts THOROUGHLY enjoy their Mazuri as well, much like the pic of Ed's Redfoots running towards the food bowl. lol 

This is merely my experience with it and it has worked very well for what I needed.


----------



## Yvonne G (Jul 27, 2008)

My desert tortoise pen consists of 90% Burmuda grass and 10% weeds. I don't feed them except an occasional branch of the mullberry tree. They are happy and healthy, and my oldest one I've had for over 30 years. This is WA-A-A-A-A-Ay far from being a natural diet for desert tortoises. In the wild, desert tortoises wander a long distance to fill their stomach. During really dry, drought years, they might go all summer and into hibernation with hardly anything to eat...for a whole year!! So even though my tortoises graze on grass and weeds, they are NOT being provided with a natural diet, as I simply cannot find the seeds from the desert to plant a natural grazing area for them. Same goes for my sulcata and leopards. I don't know if they would find Burmuda grass growing in their home world, but without water, if they did find it, it would be brown and crisp.

We do the best we can with what we've got. 

Yvonne


----------



## Jacqui (Jul 27, 2008)

Dang just reading about winter and freezing my behind off digging under snow and leaves to find weeds to supplement my torts winter diet made me realize just how uncomfortably hot I am right now. 

I do find for atleast most of the winter, enough weeds to give a little each day to everybody. However, yes most of the winter diet is store bought. I do have some pelleted food in the house, just as an emergency backup if I run out of food.

I like to atleast pretend I am giving them a natural diet. As pointed out already, even if I feed the same weed they ate in the wild, raising it in a "captive" situation will still change its water and nutrient content some.

I do like feeding fresh food be it greens, bugs, fish, whatever. That said, I do intend to try some of both the Mazuri and cat food (the one Nerd recommends) this winter. Will keep it a small part of the diet and think of it the same way I do feeding a different variety of greens or bug.


----------



## redkim (Jul 28, 2008)

Well - being in So Cal I don't have the winter problems so that DEFINITELY adds another factor to the whole issue.

The one thing I am seeing in the posts where commercial diets are used is that people will admit to some pyramiding. Isn't that a concern in some small way? I guess we've seen severe cases of pyramiding and the tortoises have managed, so minimal pyramiding is probably not an issue? Not trying to stir a pot but I am trying to understand acceptable levels.

One thing we did have to watch for when feeding "complete diets" to different animals at the zoo is the loss and breakdown over time of the vitamins in the feed. For example, Vitamin C has a shelf life of 30 days - it's one of the fastest to break down. That starts from the time the food in manufactured. You then have to calculate the time it sat in warehouse or on trucks and if it was exposed to high temps then it breaks down even faster. So many times by the time you are feeding the pellets, certain vitamins have broken down and are either gone or the potency is diminished. So I guess the point of this last bit is to say - do not rely on the pelleted feed to have all the vitamins it had when it was made. Many factors come into play between manufacturer and food dish - your animals may not be getting all the vitamins that you think they are.


----------



## -EJ (Jul 28, 2008)

Maybe you can help me...

Can you provide any evidence to support your claim that there are long term health issues... what might those issues be...?

Rapid growth is not a health issue it does occur in the wild.

Just some added questions... not necessarily to the op...

why is corn, wheat, oats... bad?

Dark leafy greens is ANY dark leafy greans... which includes cabbages...

Ed




agiletorts said:


> Are there long term health issues with feeding commercial diets which caused your tortoise to grow unnaturally fast? Maybe there are none. But I still prefer to feed natural foods to my tortoises.


----------



## Crazy1 (Jul 28, 2008)

-EJ said:


> Maybe you can help me...
> 
> Can you provide any evidence to support your claim that there are long term health issues... what might those issues be...?
> I beleive that agiletorts was asking a question, not making a statement. But I could be wrong.
> ...


----------



## -EJ (Jul 28, 2008)

It is my opinion that all TT references should be questioned because there is an obvious adjenda.

How about some references outside of the tortoise relm?

Ed



Crazy1 said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe you can help me...
> ...


----------



## luieluiehus (Jul 28, 2008)

personally i have never fed my tort anything besides all organic fruits and veggies. it seems pretty unecessary if you ask me.
it upsets me to find out that that corn is not very good for my tort because he loves munchin ears of corn.
Luie (my tort) sometimes gets into the dog food he LOVES it and at first i tought it wouldnt really cause any harm but now im having second thoughts.
does anyone know if dog food will hurt my tort??
thanks everyone for all this reallly good info
i just joined this but im already really liking it.


----------



## spikethebest (Jul 29, 2008)

dog food is EXTREMELY bad for sulcata tortoises. that is high in protein. sulcatas need a high fiber, low protein diet. please stop feeding your sulcata dog food. that might be why he is pyramiding.


----------



## -EJ (Jul 29, 2008)

Food for thought... dog food is not bad because of the protein... it is bad because of the fat. Mammals need fat... reptiles do not. Reptiles need as much protein as mammals. They don't need the fat because they are cold blooded.

Pyramiding has nothing to do with protein...

ed



spikethebest said:


> dog food is EXTREMELY bad for sulcata tortoises. that is high in protein. sulcatas need a high fiber, low protein diet. please stop feeding your sulcata dog food. that might be why he is pyramiding.


----------



## spikethebest (Jul 29, 2008)

thanks for that info. i have always been told different. thank you for correcting me.


----------



## -EJ (Jul 29, 2008)

I'm sorry. I have this nasty habit of speaking my mind. 

I wasn't correcting you but giving my point of view... to the readers of this... I could be wrong... it's a human thing...

ed




spikethebest said:


> thanks for that info. i have always been told different. thank you for correcting me.


----------



## redkim (Jul 29, 2008)

This is a really interesting article - kinda hits on several different causes of pyramiding and gives more of a whole picture guide to go by. 

Causes of Pyramiding in Tortoises
Tortoise Trust Newsletter, Summer 2000
Darrell Senneke
Director - World Chelonian Trust (WCT)

I have come to see pyramiding as being the end result of any one or usually a combination of these six things. In my examples I will use various tortoises as some are more prone to pyramiding than others. The following is a melding of recent discussions by Joe (Chiro), Chris Tabaka, myself and several others on this subject.


Too much food

Inaccessible calcium

Too much protein

Low fiber foods

Lack of exercise

Hydration status


Too much food is a real problem. Especially with sulcata, hermanni and horsfieldii - they literally eat themselves into trouble. This is the type of pyramiding that seems to be exhibited by the conical scutes. People - especially in the north - see this a lot - regardless of how much calcium they supplement. My feeling is that the body is much better at removing protein from the food than calcium -- the calcium passes through and the protein is converted to keratin resulting in the "stacked" look. Regardless of how low in protein the diet is - too much food results in this to varying amounts. In groups of redfoots and leopards where most are perfect, I have seen one or two that showed light pyramiding - usually they are the heaviest eaters.

Inaccessible calcium or low calcium seems to present itself more as a flattened appearance with collapsed veterbral scutes. Tortoises seem to preferentially put the available calcium in the plastron. This is a result of poor food or a steady diet of high oxalate foods. I have seen this in radiata, leopards, hermanni and recently a Russian. Lack of UV exposure for vitamin D conversion is another co-factor for this problem.

Too much protein (plant or animal) also gives this look. There are documented cases of wild tortoises that exhibit pyramiding - they live near soybean fields (Highfield). High protein diets are also physically stressful and are believed to damage the kidneys in addition to contributing to the stacked look.

Low fiber -- In my opinion, low fiber foods give the same result as too much food because they are too digestible. A look at the droppings of grass-fed tortoises shows them to be fibrous and still containing a lot of vegetative integrity. Looking at store produce droppings shows them to be watery. EVERY leopard owner I know in the north has trouble with this in the winter when grass (or grass hay) is not available. Interestingly, feeding alfalfa - even though it is high in protein, seems to not result in much pyramiding -- I assume because of the fiber.

Physical activity levels in proper protein/calcium metabolism is necessary for a sound skeletal frame. If you look at people's pens for their tortoises -- even the best setup does not give them as much room as in the wild. It is known that high levels of physical activity leads to more calcium being deposited in bone. (human studies)

Hydration status has also been suggested as another important co-factor. This is an interesting subject in itself. While I would not suggest this to anyone (do NOT try this at home, folks!), as an experiment in South America, a vet is feeding 20 redfoots diets intentionally very high in protein (using high protein pelleted fish food). He is also maintaining the animals in very shallow water. At this point the animals are over 4 inches long and show absolutely no pyramiding. The jury is out on kidney and liver functions and time will tell on that, but externally at least he is forcing very rapid growth with high protein and achieving very smooth shells at the same time. The thought is that the very high water throughput is flushing the system sufficiently to avoid pyramiding. (David Fabius --pers. comm.)

In closing, another example -- I have a friend who owns an Aldabra tortoise. It has developed semi-severe pyramiding, yet I know that this animal gets the lowest protein "best" foods available. I think that the pyramiding in this case is a result of too much food and almost no exercise.

So in brief, I strongly suggest avoiding protein but all of these other matters should be taken into account as well.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Interesting how protein could or could NOT be a culprit. Lotsa food and no exercise is far worse it looks like - kinda the same for people huh?


----------



## redkim (Jul 29, 2008)

And another one . . . last one I promise!!

Research finds that hydration is crucial to preventing pyramiding


SUMMARY: Researchers using Geochelone sulcata hatchlings with controlled humidity settings and controlled dietary protein levels found that providing adequate hydration was much more crucial in preventing pyramiding than reducing dietary protein. 


To: [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 19:50:43 EDT
Subject: [HerpNutrition] New Research on Pyramidal Growth in Tortoises. 28Sep03

Hello All

Regarding our emailings on this list, we've had several requests for reprinting in hard copy and also for forwarding to other lists. Both are fine and permitted as long as credit is given to our HerpNutrition list and Walkabout Farm. Our goal is simply the dissemination of knowledge in order to advance the science of herpetoculture, so it's great to see the information out there in other venues.

Those of you with tortoises and turtles are perhaps familiar with the problem of pyramidal growth in the carapaces of young captive tortoises. Many factors have been incriminated --- dietary protein, calcium, vitamin D, Ca, low UVB, rapid growth from high calorie diets --- but to date our information has been strictly observational and anecdotal. One paper published 15 years ago suggested environmental humidity may play a role in pyramidal growth (Weser, 1988, Zur Hockerbildung bei Schildkroten. Sauria 10:23-25). No controlled trials have been done, until now.

A paper has just been published by nutritionists at the University of Veterinary Medicine in Vienna (Austria). Fifty hatchling Geochelone sulcata (siblings and half-siblings from the same farm) were placed in one of five groups that differed in dietary protein and environmental humidity. Protein levels were 14, 19 and 30% crude protein on a dry matter (DM) basis; the diet form was soaked pellets mixed with endive. Extra calcium was provided each group. Humidity groups were arid (24-58%), medium (31-75%) and high (45-99%). Lighting was by three different lights, including UVB-emitting Reptisun 5.0 by ZooMed.

Pyramid humps were quantified by means of measuring the depth and side-lengths of the second and third, and third and fourth central plates on the carapace. Ratios were calculated and termed the H-value (H=hump). Statistical tests included appropriate non-parametric Kruskal-Wallis test and Mann-Whitney U-test.

The study lasted 5 months.

The researchers found that growth rates differed significantly with dietary protein level. Hematocrit and serum levels of calcium and phosphorus did not differ between groups. They found that dietary protein had little effect on pyramidal growth.

However, the researchers found that environmental humidity had a significant effect on pyramidal growth. Sulcata kept in the drier conditions had significantly greater pyramidal growth, and those kept in the highest humidity level had smooth carapaces. Photos accompany the data and statistical analyses.

The authors suggest that under natural conditions, the faster growing hatchlings would be in the humid areas under growing grasses. In contrast, those naturally in dry areas would have no growing grass because of food scarcity, hence have lower food intakes. During food scarcity, there is little growth and probably little bone growth.

Thus, the combination of arid conditions and abundant food is abnormal for young tortoises, yet is commonly found in captivity. However, correction of the problem is not through food (calories, protein) restriction, which can secondarily lead to immune suppression, stunting, debilitation from multiple nutrient deficiencies, and shortened lifespan, but through increasing humidity. When humidity was high, then high food intake, and high dietary protein, did not lead to pyramidal growth.

The authors hypothesize that during dry conditions, dehydration reduces both intra- and inter-cellular pressures on soft cartilage at the areas of bone growth, which could lead to collapse of the soft tissue and subsequent ossification in the collapsed position. 

The authors conclude the paper by recommending hide areas of 100% humidity be available to tortoises at all times. 

Further work is needed to replicate these results, determine mineral balance (acid-base balance) under dry and humid conditions, and examine the carapacial tissue histologically.

For details:
Wiesner CS, Iben C. 2003.
Influence of environmental humidity and dietary protein on pyramidal growth of carapaces in African spurred tortoises (Geochelone sulcata).
J Anim Physiol a Anim. Nutr 87:66-74.


cheers,
Sue
Susan Donoghue, VMD, DACVN
Owner, Nutrition Support Services, Inc.
HerpNutrition at Walkabout Farm
www.HerpNutrition.com


----------



## luieluiehus (Jul 29, 2008)

wow thats very intersting thanks everyone ill make sure Luie stays away from the dog food for sure. I feel pretty stupid for saying this but to be honest with you all i had no idea pryamiding was a problem. I thought it was just the way it grew. so wow, Thanks again very much!


----------



## luieluiehus (Jul 29, 2008)

so ive never tried it but should i try getting some kind of supplement for Luie? 
will the pryamiding go away?


----------



## Marla (Oct 16, 2008)

I personally do all natural and when that runs out I buy store bought veggies/fruit and I always keep tortoise food on hand in case I don't get to the store soon enough...I say do whats best for the animal and go natural and when you can't do that do store bought or pellets...I don't believe in rapid growth in most tortoises..Sulcata's being the exception because they just grow faster then any other...


----------

