# How much is too much calcium?



## Tom

There has always been much debate about how much calcium supplementation one should be giving to their tortoises. Some use none. Some use a lot every day. Some allow their torts to self-administer. When people ask how much they should use, I frequently answer "somewhere between a lot, every day and none". Both of these extreme strategies seem to produce healthy torts for the people who use them. I, personally, opt for the little bit goes a long way strategy and just use a little a couple of times a week for young tortoises, in conjunction with a high calcium diet.

Some people believe that you can't give too much calcium, because it is water soluble and excess will simply pass out through the kidneys. I have always maintained that too much calcium can contribute to some bad stuff, including interference with absorption of other vitamins and minerals. Here is something that I just pulled off of the http://africantortoise.com website in their article on pyramiding. I don't agree with the whole page and everything on it, but there is some useful and pertinent info on there. Knowledge has advanced quite a bit since that article was written, but it is still a lot on good info on how to raise a healthy tortoise. Here's the relevant paragraph:


"Calcium is also an important factor. In the wild the main sources are from the plants, the soil and in the water. Phosphorous plays a limiting role in calcium utilization. High levels of phosphorous leads to calcium being leached from the bones. A recent study showed that teenage girls are now showing signs of early osteoporosis. The relate it to drinking soda which are high in phosphoric acid. For our tortoises the main dietary source of phosphorous is protein. So once again high protein diets tie in. To counter act this and to get the calcium/phosphorous ratio to a healthy 2:1 , its is often recommended to dust all food with calcium (usually calcium carbonate). While superficially it does seem to have benefit, it has its own problems. Too much calcium results in secondary deficiencies of zinc, copper and iodine, malabsorption of essential fatty acids, and formation of calcium-containing bladder stones. Lack of calcium results in soft shells that often accompany pyramiding."

Everything between the above quotes was copied and pasted directly from the Africantortoise.com website. If its not okay to do this, Mods please delete this portion of the post and I'll just refer everyone to go to the website and find it themselves.

The second to last sentence is primarily what I am referring to here. Please share your opinions.


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## webskipper

I just sprinkle some calcium or vitamins on their greens. Alternating between the 2 powders. Also trying to get them eating more Opuntia. If I ever see a stone then I'll cut back.


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## dolfanjack

I don't give any supplements. My russian is an adult and doesn't need as much calcium ( he does have excess to a cuttlebone). My juvinile boxies get lots of worms and bugs and also have a cuttlebone. I havn't seen any signs the cuttlebone has ever been used though.


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## Tom

I'm not saying that's anyone's routine is right or wrong and I'm not making any recommendations here. It seems that everyones style of keeping works for them. I am just passing along what I know to be true about too much of a good thing.


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## terryo

I never gave calcium to Pio until he was about 7 months old. Then I started to sprinkle a little on his food every other day. Now he has the cuttlebone, and maybe I put a little on his food when I think of it. I never gave any to my boxies but they munch on cuttle bone all the time. 
I have seen very bad results in water turtles that had too much protein. I got a rescue once that was very deformed as the owner used to give only worms and chicken. Never had a commercial food or any greens. I'm really not big on too much calcium for mine, and Pio rarely gets protein now that he's outside and can find some for himself.


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## firework

I can only speak of desert torts as I don't know much about other species. 

In the wild, torts get Ca only from natural diet which is mainly green plants, and that should be enough for them. I don't know the percentage of Ca in the commercial powder, I guess they added other vitamins and additives, but still, that white powder is a LOT Ca. I can't imagine a tort having access to that concentrated Ca resources in the wild.

I use a small art brush, brush a little Ca powder on the greens, just enough to see the leaves turned a bit whitish. I do this every day but not on every leaf, only one or two leaves each time. The advantage of using a brush is it gives you better control over the amount. I used to use a salt shaker, but always shaked too much.


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## Yvonne G

I've always assumed that you can't give too much calcium. Its the D3 that you have to watch out for. I've heard that the calcium that they don't use is excreted in the urine. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

But as far as my own tortoises are concerned, if I sprinkle their food with calcium powder, they won't eat that day. So I've taken up (I think it was Tyler, but it might have been Chad or Gary GB)'s idea about placing a small dish of calcium powder in the habitat. They do a lot of walking through it and messing it up, but they DO eat it when the spirit moves them.


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## Madkins007

Excess calcium is passed in the urine (edit 11/23/2010- apparently, most excess calcium is passed in the feces.) IF the animal is properly hydrated, otherwise it can concentrate, along with other salts and minerals, in the kidneys and bladder, contributing to stones. Since most captive tortoises are at least somewhat dehydrated, I would not count on this (OURS are not, of course, since we are just so dang good, aren't we??  )

No one knows how much calcium a tortoise actually needs. If we base it on the recommended human doses, we would aim for about 1mg of calcium, per 30grams (1oz) of tortoise, per day. Actually, since a tortoise metabolism runs at about 1/2 the rate of a mammals, it could probably be 1/2 of that- 1mg of calcium per 60gr (2oz) of tortoise.

IF this anywhere near right, and I AM NOT saying it is, then a typical 10cm (4in) tortoise weighing about 190gr (7oz) would need about 3.5mg of calcium a day- or about the calcium dose found in 10gr (about 1/3rd ounce) of turnip greens a day!

Reminder #1- that is based on a theory, not proven research.
Reminder #2- healthy tortoises and skeletons need more than just calcium- some phosphorous (about half as much, in general), some vitamin D, heat, water, and an assortment of other nutrients are all important.

SO... the actual dosage may not be that big, and should be easy to hit with just a decent diet. Offering a bit extra for insurance should not be a problem as long as we don't overdo it. I treat my calcium powder as if it was some sort of radioactive salt- not much and not often.


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## dmmj

I will admit I feed mine lots of milk to provide plenty of calcium........
J/K I actually allow mine to self adminster their calcium with cuttlebones, I figure they will eat it if they need it. Mine also would not eat their food if they had a lot of calcium powder (ground up cuttlebone) on their food.


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## N2TORTS

As far as too much calciumÃ¢â‚¬Â¦just some interesting information for everyone.
There are other components in food such as phytic acid and oxalic acid, these are found naturally in some plants, they bind to calcium and can inhibit its absorption ( eventually passed as waste) [/u]. Foods with high levels of oxalic acid include most greens including, red/green leaf , spinach, collard greens, sweet potatoes, rhubarb, and beans. The extent to which these compounds affect calcium absorption varies among weeds/plants consumed. Some absorbed calcium is also eliminated from the body in urine and feces. 
JD~


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## Ceilidh_Eliza

I am also worried about calcium as I've only had my baby Hermann for a couple days. ive been told to sprinkle a small amount on his greens each day and use Nutrobal twice a week but on different days to the calcium. Is this correct, I obviously don't want to overdose the poor thing!

thanks


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## Madkins007

Ceilidh_Eliza said:


> I am also worried about calcium as I've only had my baby Hermann for a couple days. ive been told to sprinkle a small amount on his greens each day and use Nutrobal twice a week but on different days to the calcium. Is this correct, I obviously don't want to overdose the poor thing!
> 
> thanks


If you are using an intelligent diet, it should get most of the vitamins and minerals it needs in the food.

Once you are doing the diet right, you can offer a bit of calcium once or twice a week (or so, depending on what you are offering for food), and a bit of vitamin powder once every week or three- just as insurance.


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## LadyGreek

N2TORTS said:


> As far as too much calciumÃ¢â‚¬Â¦just some interesting information for everyone.
> There are other components in food such as phytic acid and oxalic acid, these are found naturally in some plants, they bind to calcium and can inhibit its absorption ( eventually passed as waste) [/u]. Foods with high levels of oxalic acid include most greens including, red/green leaf , spinach, collard greens, sweet potatoes, rhubarb, and beans. The extent to which these compounds affect calcium absorption varies among weeds/plants consumed. Some absorbed calcium is also eliminated from the body in urine and feces.
> JD~



Broccoli, Brussels Sprout, Cabbage, Collard Greens, Kale, Horseradish, Rutabaga, Turnip, Chinese Cabbage, Cauliflower, Broccoli Rabe, Daikon, Bok Choy, Radish, and Spinach are all high in Oxalic Acids and binds calcium.....not Red/Green leaf Lettuce. Everything in this list of vegetables is distinguished by its high oxalic acid and cellulose content. Most Mammals and Reptiles do not have the ability to break it down and absorb nutrients from it easily. 

Red/green leaf lettuce do not fall into that category of high oxalic acids. They contain a small amount of fatty acids in a state suitable for use by the body. They are one of the ideal staples to feed strictly herbivorous Torts because of the level of vitamins and minerals. That's why a healthy bag of Organic Spring mix Salad is a good staple for many Torts with added variety here and there like romaine, dandelion, rose leaves and petals....ect ect. 

Just thought I would help out!


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## chadk

... but are there benefits to providing foods high in Oxalic Acid? Are there benefits from those high Oxalic Acid plants, such as being high in various viatims and minerals essential for that well rounded diet we wish to provide? Can you go for a diet that emphasizes Ca absorbtion on some days, then switch to some foods high in Oxalic Acid others?


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## LadyGreek

chadk said:


> ... but are there benefits to providing foods high in Oxalic Acid? Are there benefits from those high Oxalic Acid plants, such as being high in various viatims and minerals essential for that well rounded diet we wish to provide? Can you go for a diet that emphasizes Ca absorbtion on some days, then switch to some foods high in Oxalic Acid others?



Moderation and variety is the key! 

The fact that these vegetables are high in Oxalic Acid doesn't mean they cant be fed sparingly, but I wouldn't call it a benefit just a variety. Feeding your Tort Collard Greens once every 2 weeks isn't going to do a thing. As a matter of fact they might relish it. However, there are just some greens I personally would never feed my Torts. Spinach is one I stay away from all together just to name a few, but again that's just me.


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## chadk

Mine eat a well rounded diet that includes collards, mustard greens, and some spinach. I also ensure they are well hydrated and eat a variety of things.

This offers some perspective on the topic:
http://russiantortoise.org/nutritional_analysis_of_kale.htm#oxalates
This is interesting too:
http://russiantortoise.org/diet_research.htm


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## Tom

Some interesting stuff in the replies here. 

Mine will eat their greens no matter how much calcium I sprinkle on there.

My point of the whole thread is that a lot of people use Ca every day and say that you can't use too much, because any that is not needed will just pass through and be excreted. That may be true.

I'm saying that you CAN use too much because too much calcium interferes with the absorption of zinc, copper, iodine and essential fatty acids, among other things.


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## Madkins007

LadyGreek said:


> Broccoli, Brussels Sprout, Cabbage, Collard Greens, Kale, Horseradish, Rutabaga, Turnip, Chinese Cabbage, Cauliflower, Broccoli Rabe, Daikon, Bok Choy, Radish, and Spinach are all high in Oxalic Acids and binds calcium.....not Red/Green leaf Lettuce. Everything in this list of vegetables is distinguished by its high oxalic acid and cellulose content. Most Mammals and Reptiles do not have the ability to break it down and absorb nutrients from it easily.
> 
> Red/green leaf lettuce do not fall into that category of high oxalic acids. They contain a small amount of fatty acids in a state suitable for use by the body. They are one of the ideal staples to feed strictly herbivorous Torts because of the level of vitamins and minerals. That's why a healthy bag of Organic Spring mix Salad is a good staple for many Torts with added variety here and there like romaine, dandelion, rose leaves and petals....ect ect.
> 
> Just thought I would help out!



The research I have done gives me different answers with several of these points. For example, these foods have this many mg of oxalates per 100g of food-
Broccoli- 0mg
Cabbage- 0mg
Collard Greens- .07mg
Kale-.02mg
Turnip (greens?)- .05mg
Chinese Cabbage/Bok Choy- .09mg
Spinach- .69mg

The 'brassicas' are known for good calcium bioavailability (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119293677/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0) and low oxalates.

It has also never been shown that oxalates are a big problem for a decently hydrated tortoise. Their contribution to bladder stones can just as easily be blamed on excess calcium and poor hydration. In fact, tortoises can eat plants so loaded with oxalates that they are considered toxic to humans.

Cellulose is broken down by many herbivores. Grass-eating animals need to at least partially digest cellulose in order to extract the nutrients. They may do this with a specialize digestion process, with the help of special micro-organisms, or other techniques or combinations of techniques, but it has been shown that baby Galapagos tortoises can get nutrients from cellulose pretty well. (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/110471755/abstract )

Cellulose is just a kind of fiber, and decent fiber is an important part of a healthy tortoise diet.

The leaf lettuces, like red and green, are certainly OK, but have mediocre Ca: P ratios (1.24:1 and 1.18:1 respectively), and nothing too exciting for other values. They are a decent addition to a balanced and varied tortoise diet, the main problem with them is a low level of fiber and their main benefit is water in fresh plants. Romaine lettuce is about the same.

However... the dreaded Iceberg lettuce is not really that different than the leaf lettuces- an almost 1:1 Ca: P (actually .95:1), not quite as much vitamin A, but more net carbs. If red and green leaf lettuce is a nearly perfect food, then that would make Iceberg pretty good.

Sources:
Most nutrient info- http:/www.elook.org
Oxalates- http://www.litholink.com/gateway.aspx?page=OxalateDiet and http://sun.ars-grin.gov/duke/highchem.html




Here is the deal for me... we are investigating this stuff to the point that we seem to be focusing on a lot of speculation and theory rather than actual fact. There are zoos that have fed what we would say is a mediocre to poor diet for their Red-foots, but get impressive longevity and breeding results. 

The brassicas were considered evil because when they formed the major part of the diet of Galapagos tortoises, the torts developed goiters. It did not affect most species, and has not shown to be a problem when used in moderation- but we still tend to avoid them. Iceberg got a bad rep when it was used almost to the exclusion of anything else- and we still are reluctant to use it much.

For every nutrient, there is an anti-nutrient- calcium blocks iron absorption, some vitamins block other vitamins. We can go crazy dealing with it, or we can just offer a balanced, varied diet and not sweat small glitches.


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## LadyGreek

Excelent research Mark! This will be added to my notes! I wish I could have done as much reasearh, but I was going off the top of my head at work while I was supposed to be working. Haha! 
My main point was to clear up the Red/Green leaf saga, because I didn't want Newbies thinking they had to stay away from them altogether. Another thing we have to keep in mind in the debate is we are debating a LARGE rage of Tort species with all different diets. What a Red-Foot can eat a Greek may not be able too and so forth. 

But the main topic is Ca and I think a keeper should choose wisely based on the diet they feed their Torts and the quality of it's living spaces (Cuttlebone, UVA/UVB, natural sunlight.....ect. Just my own personal thought. Not trying to force it on anyone.


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## Madkins007

LadyGreek said:


> Excelent research Mark! This will be added to my notes! I wish I could have done as much reasearh, but I was going off the top of my head at work while I was supposed to be working. Haha!
> My main point was to clear up the Red/Green leaf saga, because I didn't want Newbies thinking they had to stay away from them altogether. Another thing we have to keep in mind in the debate is we are debating a LARGE rage of Tort species with all different diets. What a Red-Foot can eat a Greek may not be able too and so forth.
> 
> But the main topic is Ca and I think a keeper should choose wisely based on the diet they feed their Torts and the quality of it's living spaces (Cuttlebone, UVA/UVB, natural sunlight.....ect. Just my own personal thought. Not trying to force it on anyone.



I agree completely. I DO think there is a 'core diet' that most commonly kept species can do well- the so-called 'Weed Diet', which would vary some based on where you are, what you have available, etc. I also completely agree that some of the lettuces that get overlooked in our quest for maximum calcium are a useful addition to the diet.

I DO really wish that someone would just finally do the research needed to determine at least a basic calcium (and vitamin D) need. It would make things so much easier!

(And I think I know which sites you have seen the information you gave at. Good sites, but I sometimes wonder about some of their information.)


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## LadyGreek

Madkins007 said:


> LadyGreek said:
> 
> 
> 
> Excelent research Mark! This will be added to my notes! I wish I could have done as much reasearh, but I was going off the top of my head at work while I was supposed to be working. Haha!
> My main point was to clear up the Red/Green leaf saga, because I didn't want Newbies thinking they had to stay away from them altogether. Another thing we have to keep in mind in the debate is we are debating a LARGE rage of Tort species with all different diets. What a Red-Foot can eat a Greek may not be able too and so forth.
> 
> But the main topic is Ca and I think a keeper should choose wisely based on the diet they feed their Torts and the quality of it's living spaces (Cuttlebone, UVA/UVB, natural sunlight.....ect. Just my own personal thought. Not trying to force it on anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree completely. I DO think there is a 'core diet' that most commonly kept species can do well- the so-called 'Weed Diet', which would vary some based on where you are, what you have available, etc. I also completely agree that some of the lettuces that get overlooked in our quest for maximum calcium are a useful addition to the diet.
> 
> I DO really wish that someone would just finally do the research needed to determine at least a basic calcium (and vitamin D) need. It would make things so much easier!
> 
> (And I think I know which sites you have seen the information you gave at. Good sites, but I sometimes wonder about some of their information.)
Click to expand...


I'm with you 100% on that Mark. I cant wait till this topic becomes a right way one way street only, because it's a nightmare topic. It feels like we are debating Religion or something. Haha!

Me too! I wonder about all the information floating on the web and whatnot. I just research all of it and put my own conclusion together on what sounds right and what doesn't (as a matter of fact I think we all do it this way!)


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## cleinertson

Tom said:


> There has always been much debate about how much calcium supplementation one should be giving to their tortoises. Some use none. Some use a lot every day. Some allow their torts to self-administer. When people ask how much they should use, I frequently answer "somewhere between a lot, every day and none". Both of these extreme strategies seem to produce healthy torts for the people who use them. I, personally, opt for the little bit goes a long way strategy and just use a little a couple of times a week for young tortoises, in conjunction with a high calcium diet.
> 
> Some people believe that you can't give too much calcium, because it is water soluble and excess will simply pass out through the kidneys. I have always maintained that too much calcium can contribute to some bad stuff, including interference with absorption of other vitamins and minerals. Here is something that I just pulled off of the http://africantortoise.com website in their article on pyramiding. I don't agree with the whole page and everything on it, but there is some useful and pertinent info on there. Knowledge has advanced quite a bit since that article was written, but it is still a lot on good info on how to raise a healthy tortoise. Here's the relevant paragraph:
> 
> 
> "Calcium is also an important factor. In the wild the main sources are from the plants, the soil and in the water. Phosphorous plays a limiting role in calcium utilization. High levels of phosphorous leads to calcium being leached from the bones. A recent study showed that teenage girls are now showing signs of early osteoporosis. The relate it to drinking soda which are high in phosphoric acid. For our tortoises the main dietary source of phosphorous is protein. So once again high protein diets tie in. To counter act this and to get the calcium/phosphorous ratio to a healthy 2:1 , its is often recommended to dust all food with calcium (usually calcium carbonate). While superficially it does seem to have benefit, it has its own problems. Too much calcium results in secondary deficiencies of zinc, copper and iodine, malabsorption of essential fatty acids, and formation of calcium-containing bladder stones. Lack of calcium results in soft shells that often accompany pyramiding."
> 
> Everything between the above quotes was copied and pasted directly from the Africantortoise.com website. If its not okay to do this, Mods please delete this portion of the post and I'll just refer everyone to go to the website and find it themselves.
> 
> The second to last sentence is primarily what I am referring to here. Please share your opinions.



I am new, but I have been feeding my young sulcata, Moshi, calcium every other day as directed by the seller, and she / he is now passing huge stones. I read that sometimes these stones require surgery. I just hope that by cutting back on calcium now, I will have a healthy tort, once again. She doesn't seem to be in pain. She is eating and pooping just fine so far. I love her and want to do the best for her.
cleinertson


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## Maggie Cummings

cleinertson said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> There has always been much debate about how much calcium supplementation one should be giving to their tortoises. Some use none. Some use a lot every day. Some allow their torts to self-administer. When people ask how much they should use, I frequently answer "somewhere between a lot, every day and none". Both of these extreme strategies seem to produce healthy torts for the people who use them. I, personally, opt for the little bit goes a long way strategy and just use a little a couple of times a week for young tortoises, in conjunction with a high calcium diet.
> 
> Some people believe that you can't give too much calcium, because it is water soluble and excess will simply pass out through the kidneys. I have always maintained that too much calcium can contribute to some bad stuff, including interference with absorption of other vitamins and minerals. Here is something that I just pulled off of the http://africantortoise.com website in their article on pyramiding. I don't agree with the whole page and everything on it, but there is some useful and pertinent info on there. Knowledge has advanced quite a bit since that article was written, but it is still a lot on good info on how to raise a healthy tortoise. Here's the relevant paragraph:
> 
> 
> "Calcium is also an important factor. In the wild the main sources are from the plants, the soil and in the water. Phosphorous plays a limiting role in calcium utilization. High levels of phosphorous leads to calcium being leached from the bones. A recent study showed that teenage girls are now showing signs of early osteoporosis. The relate it to drinking soda which are high in phosphoric acid. For our tortoises the main dietary source of phosphorous is protein. So once again high protein diets tie in. To counter act this and to get the calcium/phosphorous ratio to a healthy 2:1 , its is often recommended to dust all food with calcium (usually calcium carbonate). While superficially it does seem to have benefit, it has its own problems. Too much calcium results in secondary deficiencies of zinc, copper and iodine, malabsorption of essential fatty acids, and formation of calcium-containing bladder stones. Lack of calcium results in soft shells that often accompany pyramiding."
> 
> Everything between the above quotes was copied and pasted directly from the Africantortoise.com website. If its not okay to do this, Mods please delete this portion of the post and I'll just refer everyone to go to the website and find it themselves.
> 
> The second to last sentence is primarily what I am referring to here. Please share your opinions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am new, but I have been feeding my young sulcata, Moshi, calcium every other day as directed by the seller, and she / he is now passing huge stones. I read that sometimes these stones require surgery. I just hope that by cutting back on calcium now, I will have a healthy tort, once again. She doesn't seem to be in pain. She is eating and pooping just fine so far. I love her and want to do the best for her.
> cleinertson
Click to expand...


Are you sure those are stones and not urates? A dehydrated tortoise or one almost dehydrated will pass almost hard urates, severely concentrated urine, not stones...Do you soak your tort? Is he drinking? Don't mean to hijack your thread Tom...


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## Becki

Another thing to consider...if you live in a dry climate (little rainfall) and your tortoise grazes outside the plants will have a higher concentration of calcium.


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## biglove4bigtorts

IMO, the calcium needs for each tortoise can be very differnt, even within the same species. Age, growth rate, being gravid, gender, environment, and other factors are at play. I think that wild tortoises are self-regulating and if a need for additional calcium is present, they may selectively graze more plants with higer amounts of available calcium.

I have kept many reptile and have never had any problems with hypercalcemia or hypocalcemia.
With my yearling Manoura, I did not supplement all Summer, b/c I was supplying thier daily diet from my own planting beds, that I amended with lime. Our soil is naturally acidic, so a few years growth of turnip greens, could potentally deplete the calcium levels in the soil and therfore affect the amount of calcium available in the plants grown there.

Now that I rely on Spring Mix and store-bought collards, turnip, mustard, and chicory greens, I supplement daily and very lightly with calcium and twice a week with vitamins and calcium with D3. I coat the greens so lightly, that when tossed in, the supplements are not visible.

Some considerations with Manouria are:
They come from areas with limestone deposits and alkaline soil. The vegetation will likely be high in calcium. The also have the majority of thier diet represented by high oxalate plants, like alocasias and colocasias. They are dense forest dwellers and thus recieve limited UVB exposure. Any pools of water they come across will also likely contain high levels of calcium leached from the limestone.

Two consideration with captive tortoises are:
Floruide in tap water. Flouride in too high of doses causes pitting and brittle bones and a small amount may or may not be causing unknown harm to our captives. Garden hoses are known for leaching lead and this is why it is ill advised to drink from them. If you are watering your garden and your tortoise graze with a hose, it may be causing a harmful accumulation of lead. There are lead free hoses and bottle spring water in the cheaper gallon jugs can be used to avoid flouride.


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## Annieski

biglove4bigtorts said:


> IMO, the calcium needs for each tortoise can be very differnt, even within the same species. Age, growth rate, being gravid, gender, environment, and other factors are at play. I think that wild tortoises are self-regulating and if a need for additional calcium is present, they may selectively graze more plants with higer amounts of available calcium.
> 
> I have kept many reptile and have never had any problems with hypercalcemia or hypocalcemia.
> With my yearling Manoura, I did not supplement all Summer, b/c I was supplying thier daily diet from my own planting beds, that I amended with lime. Our soil is naturally acidic, so a few years growth of turnip greens, could potentally deplete the calcium levels in the soil and therfore affect the amount of calcium available in the plants grown there.
> 
> Now that I rely on Spring Mix and store-bought collards, turnip, mustard, and chicory greens, I supplement daily and very lightly with calcium and twice a week with vitamins and calcium with D3. I coat the greens so lightly, that when tossed in, the supplements are not visible.
> 
> Some considerations with Manouria are:
> They come from areas with limestone deposits and alkaline soil. The vegetation will likely be high in calcium. The also have the majority of thier diet represented by high oxalate plants, like alocasias and colocasias. They are dense forest dwellers and thus recieve limited UVB exposure. Any pools of water they come across will also likely contain high levels of calcium leached from the limestone.
> 
> Two consideration with captive tortoises are:
> Floruide in tap water. Flouride in too high of doses causes pitting and brittle bones and a small amount may or may not be causing unknown harm to our captives. Garden hoses are known for leaching lead and this is why it is ill advised to drink from them. If you are watering your garden and your tortoise graze with a hose, it may be causing a harmful accumulation of lead. There are lead free hoses and bottle spring water in the cheaper gallon jugs can be used to avoid flouride.



Thank you for adding this info about the soil and water content [in specific regions].I think this is a very important thing to consider. I always used the conditioning agent for "tap water" in the fish isle--even though the Vet said tap was ok. How is it that we would have to be concerned about "organic" and then not pay attention to the additives used to "purify" our tap h2o.?


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## biglove4bigtorts

No thank you needed, just offer me a tort-friendlt safe haven- when the white coats come from me, b/c of my psychosis...tortoises on the brain 24/7...lol


I have had the unfortunate task of doing home necrospy on animals that appeared healthy, but died and I have been involved in groups, where seemingly healthy animals were developing cancer. We spent hours speculating and these issues with out common tap water supply and delivery method glared at us, though they may or may not have caused the problems. These where with chameleons by the way, not tortoises, but why put them at risk, when it could so easily be eliminated?

Oops...I got side tracked into dangers with muncipal water and off the calcium topic. I just thought it was worth while to consider some other sources for calcium in some species and also a possible source of depletion in areas with high flouride amounts in thier water.


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## Livingstone

This has been a very informative thread. It just reinforces all the things I've been doing.

Incase anybody is interested, livingstone is fed organic dandelion, kale, turnip greens, collards and mazuri. This is almost exclusively what shes been raised on. I got the information from WCT site, nutrient analysis of replacement foods for tortoises. Along with those foods, her water bowl is filled with water from a brita pitcher. 

My calcium schedule is monday thru friday for calcium, tuesday and thursday for vitamins, and saturday and sunday are supplement free.


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## Terry Allan Hall

I've been told that, as I feed my torts cactus pads 2-3X a week, that augmenting their diets w/ calcium powder is now redundant...what is the general consensus about that?

TIA...


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## Annieski

JMO--I would agree with that thinking. Cactus is a great source of calcium--and if the tortoise readily eats it,along with other greens to provide the other nutrient and vitamins.


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## Madkins007

Livingstone said:


> This has been a very informative thread. It just reinforces all the things I've been doing.
> 
> Incase anybody is interested, livingstone is fed organic dandelion, kale, turnip greens, collards and mazuri. This is almost exclusively what shes been raised on. I got the information from WCT site, nutrient analysis of replacement foods for tortoises. Along with those foods, her water bowl is filled with water from a brita pitcher.
> 
> My calcium schedule is monday thru friday for calcium, tuesday and thursday for vitamins, and saturday and sunday are supplement free.



I would suggest, that for you and BigLove, that this is a LOT of calcium and other vitamins. Mazuri has a good vitamin and calcium mix, and most of your plants are well over the 2:1 Ca: P usually recommended. Do you have a reason for all that?

Darrel Seneke's articles in the WCT are great, and the one you mentioned is very good. Just remember that it was done a few years ago and even then some of its conclusions were considered a bit out-dated.


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## biglove4bigtorts

I am not trying to be confrontational, just want to be certain I understand your question. I take you to mean that you think the amount of supplementation is excessive and was wondering what my reasoning was.

My torts got NO supplementation when the diet was all home-grown weeds and greens with a relative certainty of calcium content, b/c I lyme the soil. In a farmer's field, where turnip greens have been cultivated for years, the calcium content of the greems ,ay be signifigantly less. I also rely more on spring mix and since my trots have doubled in size in a few months, I feel that the growth spurt, coupled with food with a lower nutrient density, make light supplementation benificial. I use mostly TNT, Repashy, and bee poleen, with just a pinch of calcium and premade vitamins. I only dose with prepformed vitamins as a light dust twice a week and with just calcium and bee pollen added at as a pinch and mixed with TNT and Repashy, then dusted lightly on the greens...this is not excessive to my thought process, but if you have information to the contrary, I am open to learning any new information that helps me be a better servant to my animals. 







Madkins007 said:


> Livingstone said:
> 
> 
> 
> This has been a very informative thread. It just reinforces all the things I've been doing.
> 
> Incase anybody is interested, livingstone is fed organic dandelion, kale, turnip greens, collards and mazuri. This is almost exclusively what shes been raised on. I got the information from WCT site, nutrient analysis of replacement foods for tortoises. Along with those foods, her water bowl is filled with water from a brita pitcher.
> 
> My calcium schedule is monday thru friday for calcium, tuesday and thursday for vitamins, and saturday and sunday are supplement free.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would suggest, that for you and BigLove, that this is a LOT of calcium and other vitamins. Mazuri has a good vitamin and calcium mix, and most of your plants are well over the 2:1 Ca: P usually recommended. Do you have a reason for all that?
> 
> Darrel Seneke's articles in the WCT are great, and the one you mentioned is very good. Just remember that it was done a few years ago and even then some of its conclusions were considered a bit out-dated.
Click to expand...


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## Madkins007

biglove4bigtorts said:


> I am not trying to be confrontational, just want to be certain I understand your question. I take you to mean that you think the amount of supplementation is excessive and was wondering what my reasoning was.
> 
> My torts got NO supplementation when the diet was all home-grown weeds and greens with a relative certainty of calcium content, b/c I lyme the soil. In a farmer's field, where turnip greens have been cultivated for years, the calcium content of the greems ,ay be signifigantly less. I also rely more on spring mix and since my trots have doubled in size in a few months, I feel that the growth spurt, coupled with food with a lower nutrient density, make light supplementation benificial. I use mostly TNT, Repashy, and bee poleen, with just a pinch of calcium and premade vitamins. I only dose with prepformed vitamins as a light dust twice a week and with just calcium and bee pollen added at as a pinch and mixed with TNT and Repashy, then dusted lightly on the greens...this is not excessive to my thought process, but if you have information to the contrary, I am open to learning any new information that helps me be a better servant to my animals.



Supplementation is usually intended to 'fill in' where the diet is deficient. If the diet is OK, then supplementation is usually light and offered more as insurance.

Since both Repashy and TNT are calcium and vitamin supplements, you seem to be offering a high-calcium diet, plus a calcium/vitamin supplement, plus a calcium/vitamin supplement, plus calcium and vitamin supplements.

Have you run any sort of analysis to make sure they are getting enough phosphorous? They need phosphorous as well to help balance the calcium or the bones get too brittle. There is also a real risk of too much of other nutrients- for example, excess calcium inhibits iron absorption and tortoises need their iron. 

I would also be interested in your thoughts about bee pollen as an additive for tortoises- I am not sure I understand the benefits of this.

Your comment that your torts have about doubled in size in a few months makes me a bit nervous. It suggests that they may be growing more rapidly than normal, which has certain long-term health connotations.


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## biglove4bigtorts

My tortoises' growth has been without ANY supplementation, animal protein, or anything else, aside from fresh, hand picked, and home-grown vegetation. I did not feed heavily on legumes and there are no abnormalities in the shells or signs of obesity. Thier shells are hard and that is wonderful, since this year, I was not able to house them outdoors. They are just entering thier second year, so rapid growth should occur at times and then slow, then pick up, then slow.....all torts grow at different rates, including ones kept in identicle settings and from the same species. I have had them about a year, but it has only been the last few months, that the amount they have grown has really struck me, so the doubling in ize has taken a year, with the last few months being ecspecially noticeable.

As for the correct amount of phosphorus, I feed grated winter squash, parsnips, blossoms, berries, mushrooms, grapes, rarely banana, papaya, lettuces found in the spring mix, and sweet potato, so I'm sure they are getting plenty.

I was under the impression that TNT and Repashy are high in calcium due to the plants used in the supplement, ot because of additional calcium added to those mixes. I will do some more research and possibly cut back to just my twice weekly vitamin and calcium with D3 regime'. I offer the additional vitamins and D3 to fill in the gaps and I use bee pollen because it nearly a complete food, high in vegetable protein and may or may not enhance color, which is more for the uromastyx than the burmese blacks...lol I also use vitamin supplements designed for amphibians that are very sensitive to over supplementation, thus reducing the risk of overdoing it. IMO, we can consider grocery greens to be as nutrient dense as thay should be, when they have been grown in cultivated soil that may get NKP fertilizers, but is likely depleted in calcium and micronutrients. I think montane and forest torts are more suceptible to oversupplementation and wouldbe the most adversley affected by oversupplementation, but in the last week, I haven't notice any ill affects from my current regime', though it would probably take a bit longer to show cause for alarm. I heed your advice and will do some math and try to establish how much of what they are getting at my current dosage and what amount is the actual target for day to day life and healthy growth, but it is still speculation, based on what information is out there and how I interpert it. 






Supplementation is usually intended to 'fill in' where the diet is deficient. If the diet is OK, then supplementation is usually light and offered more as insurance.

Since both Repashy and TNT are calcium and vitamin supplements, you seem to be offering a high-calcium diet, plus a calcium/vitamin supplement, plus a calcium/vitamin supplement, plus calcium and vitamin supplements.

Have you run any sort of analysis to make sure they are getting enough phosphorous? They need phosphorous as well to help balance the calcium or the bones get too brittle. There is also a real risk of too much of other nutrients- for example, excess calcium inhibits iron absorption and tortoises need their iron. 

I would also be interested in your thoughts about bee pollen as an additive for tortoises- I am not sure I understand the benefits of this.

Your comment that your torts have about doubled in size in a few months makes me a bit nervous. It suggests that they may be growing more rapidly than normal, which has certain long-term health connotations.
[/quote]


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## Madkins007

BigTorts- As long as you are not just doing what so many people have done and just dump stuff in there thinking that if some is good, more is better, I', happy... not that my stamp of approval means much!


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## biglove4bigtorts

Nope, I use small pinches of calcium/vitamins/or calcium with D3 mixed with TNT and Repashy and some bee pollen. It is a teaspoonfull per cup or so...then that is sprinkled as a pinch or two onto the daily food, so I think that is a moderate amount. I see not much difference between doing that and offering Mazuri, as I see Mazuri as mostly fillers and actually a poor representation of a natural diet. It may have the nutrients tortoises need to grow and live a healthy life, but it is mostly indigestible fillers and grains. It can't be as healthy as fresh fruits and vegetables. I think I could reduce my amount of supplementation, but I also think it is harmless at its current rate. I am going to consult Vic Morgan and Yvonnes and see what they have to say...I believe Yvonne does not supplement her adults, but I'm not sure....both of these keepers should have some species-specific advice and I am going to do my mathmatical breakdown this weekend and try to come up with a safe regime' that provides what the tortoises need, without crossing the line to oversupplementation.


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## Livingstone

Madkins007, thanks for the feedback. I dont have a measured reason for the calcium. Mostly I use it daily because it has the D3 which an indoor tort lacks. I also dont know if you read that I abstain from any supplements 2 days a week (sat and sun). The reason why Im not concerned is because livingstone is not passing urates with any frequency. If I saw a rise in urates on a day to day basis I would reduce the calcium. I "assume" that because I dont see any urates that her body is absorbing the calcium, rather than pushing it out.

This may seem like a very unscientific approach, but I dont feed things that prevent calcium intake. No blockers. I can see where feeding a tort a diet high in oxalic acid with plants like chard, etc could be a problem because it would cause stones to develop due to the added calcium delivered in supplements binding and causing calcium oxalate that isnt absorbable. So your point is dually noted.

The other thing I do is I feed maxuri in a VERY wet form ensuring that the animal is not dehydrated, this coupled with daily 15 minute soaks in warm water. The mazuri feeding strategy that I have adopted is one that I think differentiates me from other keepers. I use boiling water to break down the mazuri prior to feeding, the excess water is also drained off leaving a wet soggy mass. I know that in doing this I am reducing the potency of whats in the mazuri, for all intensive purpose the mazuri serves as a water delivery system, with a small amount of protein.

Not trying to be funny, but when it comes to Livingstone Im not fooling around. She probably eats better than I do.


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## kelarned

I don't have any research data on Ca or other supplements to add, but I have a couple thoughts and questions.

BTW, very interesting thread...Thanks TOM.

I have read numerous research articles (for humans) that suggest that most vitamin supplements aren't necessary and really only give a placebo effect for those looking to feel better. 

I personally feel that adding a daily vitamin to an already complete diet, will only give you expensive urine. 

I wonder if this is true for the torts, without the added placebo effect.

I have kept and breed various types of reptiles for 12 plus years, but I am still relatively new to torts and their specific needs.

I have found that it is very challenging to provide a well balanced diet to captive animals, without using some supplements. That being said, I have also found it very challenging to keep a large variety of greens around due to shelf life in the fridge. I don't have the ability to grow them myself right now and all too often they go bad (2 weeks) before I can use them all. My 3 leos (3 months) just can't get through it all and I end up having to throw so much away.

Recently, I have been buying 2-3 types with some spring mix. I rotate these every 2 weeks so that they are getting some variety. I really want to do what is best for the little guys, so I hope this is ok???

I have seen other threads talk about adding the vitamins and minerals into their soaking water. When they take a drink, I am assuming that they are getting vitamin enriched water. My kids used to take polyvitamin drops when they were 1-2 years old. I was wondering what you all think about using these drops in their water??? Don't know if this is good or not, but it seems like it is ok. Any thoughts???

I'm not sure if it will be necessary though, because along with the greens they do get both mazuri and grassland supplements throughout the week.


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## Madkins007

This is going to sound really odd, but I am in the middle of some research that is making me seriously rethink a lot of things I have said as recently as yesterday.

I've recently read an article on Improper Diet Cascade, about a whole slew of problems that affect birds because of improper ratios of nutrients, vitamins, and minerals- too many or too little, and the short- and long-term effects on everything from the lining of the intestinal walls, to the development of the eye, to the way the skin grows. THEN I read Andy Highfields most recent article on Spanish tortoises diet and it made me think a bit more.

Give me another week or so and I may have something useful to post on all of this- it needs more research and incubation.

Livingstone- one thing to keep in mind in a high-calcium diet is that calcium blocks iron intake. Isn't that a fun fact to make things just a bit more annoying?


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## biglove4bigtorts

We await your continued responses with bated breath and fingernails between our teeth! Kudos to you for continuing your research an maintaining an open mind...I take the same approach and helps us learn and apply the best practices for our cold-blooded charges. 

Please see the responses I have in the Manouria area of the forums from Yvonne regarding supplements.

I am thinking of moving to a 4 day supplementation schedule. Everyday with TNT/Repashy, then Mon/Weds Calcium and bee pollen, Tuesday/Thurs Calcum with D3 and vitamins, and just the TNT/Repashy pn the weekends. Problem is storage space for easy doseing...I keep all of my stuff refrigerated for optimal shelf life and potency. I'll just buy a bunch of salt shakers from the dollar star and lable them witht he days of the week and the contents.





Madkins007 said:


> This is going to sound really odd, but I am in the middle of some research that is making me seriously rethink a lot of things I have said as recently as yesterday.
> 
> I've recently read an article on Improper Diet Cascade, about a whole slew of problems that affect birds because of improper ratios of nutrients, vitamins, and minerals- too many or too little, and the short- and long-term effects on everything from the lining of the intestinal walls, to the development of the eye, to the way the skin grows. THEN I read Andy Highfields most recent article on Spanish tortoises diet and it made me think a bit more.
> 
> Give me another week or so and I may have something useful to post on all of this- it needs more research and incubation.
> 
> Livingstone- one thing to keep in mind in a high-calcium diet is that calcium blocks iron intake. Isn't that a fun fact to make things just a bit more annoying?


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## Livingstone

Madkins007 said:


> Livingstone- one thing to keep in mind in a high-calcium diet is that calcium blocks iron intake. Isn't that a fun fact to make things just a bit more annoying?



If you feed too much collards, kale, cabbage, etc you will have the same problem. I think if the calcium content in her diet was that high I would be seeing an increase in urates? 

Besides, I see posts about torts eating whole cuttle bones and they dont suffer any ill effect. Livingstone does not have a cuttle bone.

As a moderator, can you point me in the direction of a link to urates?

Either way, I am doing research into iodine defficiency now. Thanks, and yes, this is a very good thread.


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## Madkins007

Livingstone said:


> If you feed too much collards, kale, cabbage, etc you will have the same problem. I think if the calcium content in her diet was that high I would be seeing an increase in urates?
> 
> Besides, I see posts about torts eating whole cuttle bones and they dont suffer any ill effect. Livingstone does not have a cuttle bone.
> 
> As a moderator, can you point me in the direction of a link to urates?
> 
> Either way, I am doing research into iodine defficiency now. Thanks, and yes, this is a very good thread.



Urates? Heck if I know!  Among the many powers we mods have, we can turn gold into lead (which is obviously not that helpful), no special knowledge of threads or sites. Anyone else have an idea?


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## Livingstone

So after many hours of fruitless research, I have not been able to find a decent reference to any information reagarding tortoises, iodine intake and its effects. It is my opinion that if this was a problem then there would be more information. However if anybody can point me in the direction of a good source I would appreciate it. 

I did find information on the sulcata station site that pointed out that the grass in the sahel region is calcium rich because of the dry climate and that sulcatas have a high calcium requirement. Im going to stick to my regimen until better information or a more conclusive study has been done.


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## Madkins007

Livingstone said:


> So after many hours of fruitless research, I have not been able to find a decent reference to any information reagarding tortoises, iodine intake and its effects. It is my opinion that if this was a problem then there would be more information. However if anybody can point me in the direction of a good source I would appreciate it.
> 
> I did find information on the sulcata station site that pointed out that the grass in the sahel region is calcium rich because of the dry climate and that sulcatas have a high calcium requirement. Im going to stick to my regimen until better information or a more conclusive study has been done.



Ah- you meant info on goiterogens, goiter, iodine deficency, etc. My mistake. Maybe this will help- Iodine is a necessary element in a tortoise diet, and surprisingly high levels seem to be needed in some giant species, I believe mostly for the Galapagos. Galaps fed with too many brassicas, especially cabbage (since it is usually cheap), can develop a goiter. Most other tortoises seem to have a more normal need for the stuff and eating brassicas in moderation does not seem to be an issue.


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## biglove4bigtorts

This is the reply I posted in the supplementation thread in the Asian tortoise section. It is based on my discussions there, in this thread, and elsewhere in on the TFO forums, as well as my collective knowledge from keeping herps for the last 18+years.



It seems the conclusion is that they do need supplements, but no one can identify what will work across the board as a baseline and what sources are ok to use. Mazuri may have yeilded great results for Len, but would TNT, bee pollen, Repashy, and vitamins/calcium supplements do the same job for me, without the fillers in the Mazuri? IME montane animals are the most sensitive to oversupplementation. I think, based on what I am gathering, my supplement schedule will continue like this:
Monday- fresh foods only
Tuesday-Repashy,TNT, and Bee pollen sprinkled on fresh food
Wednesday- Calcium with D3 and vitamin supplements sprinkled on fresh food
Thursday-Repashy,TNT, and Bee pollen sprinkled on fresh food
Friday-Fresh Foods only
Saturday-Calcium with D3 and vitamin supplements sprinkled on fresh food
Sunday-Repashy,TNT and vitamins sprinkled on fresh food

This is a regime' for use in the cold months when the diet is made up of:
winter squash, chicory, spring mix, turnip greens, mustard greens, kale, collards, beet greens, chard, spring mix, cress, parsnips, arugala, optunia pads, mushrooms, and grated sweet potato.


In the Summer, I will probably swap the D3 calcium with plain calcium and use the Repashy/TNT/bee pollen mixture twice a week, with vitamins supplements twice a week as well.
The diet extends to include: mullein, safoin, clover, white mulberry, borage, nasturtium, rose, brambles, plantains, mallow, hibiscus, shasta daisy, cone flower, thistle, dandelion, violet, marigolds, colocasia, alocasia, grape, berris, figs, the occasional bit of banana, mint, nipplewort, sheppards purse, and other home-grown goods, in addition to the greens in the


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## HLogic

Just a note here... I don't know of any correlation between urate production and excessive calcium intake. Urates, in this case uric acid, is the organism's mechanism of disposing of nitrogenous waste. 

If I'm missing something here, please point me to a reference...


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## HLogic

A couple of other minor points... The majority of excess calcium is excreted in feces unless there are mitigating circumstances such as disease. http://www.repvet.co.za/health_metabolic_bone_disease_mbd.php (Physiology section, first paragraph).

Phosphoric acid was not to blame for the bone loss in the study of young women drinking sodas. Caffeine was the culprit and was exacerbated by the replacement of milk by soda. http://www.ajcn.org/content/74/3/343.full.pdf (Abstract, Results & Conclusions sections).

Too much calcium? http://www.biomedsearch.com/nih/Influence-calcium-content-diet-offered/15980135.html (abstract).

Calcium carbonate is not "soluble" in water, it is considered very slightly soluble (40 mg/l). It is 'soluble' in acidic solutions in the sense that it's dissociation from the carbonate ions produces calcium ions.

Read the label of your spring mix! Mine has spinach...

And just one other tidbit, collards are brassicas and have half the oxalates as spinach and almost the same as beets leaves and chard. The difference is the ratio of calcium to oxalates.

It's all in the balance...variety is the spice of life!


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## Livingstone

HLogic said:


> Just a note here... I don't know of any correlation between urate production and excessive calcium intake. Urates, in this case uric acid, is the organism's mechanism of disposing of nitrogenous waste.
> 
> If I'm missing something here, please point me to a reference...



You aren't noting anything, you are stating that I am wrong. Which doesn't bother me half as much as your ostentatious way of presenting it. But after reading your second post I can see that you are in a league of your own. However, your link to the South African veterinary site is very useful. Dankie meneer.


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## Madkins007

HLogic said:


> A couple of other minor points... The majority of excess calcium is excreted in feces unless there are mitigating circumstances such as disease. http://www.repvet.co.za/health_metabolic_bone_disease_mbd.php (Physiology section, first paragraph).
> 
> 
> Too much calcium? http://www.biomedsearch.com/nih/Influence-calcium-content-diet-offered/15980135.html (abstract).
> 
> Calcium carbonate is not "soluble" in water, it is considered very slightly soluble (40 mg/l). It is 'soluble' in acidic solutions in the sense that it's dissociation from the carbonate ions produces calcium ions.
> 
> Read the label of your spring mix! Mine has spinach...
> 
> And just one other tidbit, collards are brassicas and have half the oxalates as spinach and almost the same as beets leaves and chard. The difference is the ratio of calcium to oxalates.
> 
> It's all in the balance...variety is the spice of life!


Huh- I did not know Collards were a Brassica, although I knew that mustard and turnips were.

A couple quick questions:

1. In the calcium article- any idea how they determined the 'proper' dose of calcium for the baby torts?

2. Which list of oxalates levels do you use/prefer/trust? What are your guidelines about oxalates in the diet?


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## Yvonne G

"Too much calcium? Not me, man!!"

















(Doncha' just love those back legs in the first shot?"


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## HLogic

Collards = _Brassica oleracea_ var _viridis_.

The 'proper' dose is the $64,000 question. I don't know where they got their info but it's the first time I've seen a statement so bold in print! I am in the process of tracking down that answer.

I use several sources, primarily Dr. Duke's Phytochemical & Ethnobotanical Database and the USDA Nutrient Database. They use different assay methodologies providing a comparison and more even playing field when considering dietary constituents.

I don't concern myself with oxalates as every plant from single-celled algae to sequoias have it. All things considered, these animals have a considerable tolerance for oxalates as much of their natural diet contains substantial amounts. I concentrate on giviing a variety of foodstuffs and maintaining hydration. For juveniles and females during laying season, I try to offset any oxalate load by supplying additional calcium in the form of oolitic aragonite w/strontium supplementation and cuttlebone.

As many have said, I am a firm believer in variety, balance and allowing the animals to determine what they will and will not eat. I have seen them eat many things that are either detrimental, anecdotally 'bad' and downright toxic without problem. I have also seen them refuse allegedly wonderfully nutritional food items. Observation of their habits and preferences guides my maintenance strategy.

And to keep 'on thread'... too much (qualitatively) calcium, as with anything, is BAD. How much (quantitatively) is too much, unfortunately, is still an unanswered question...

To stir the pot further, I just came across this article (http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/bitstream/10113/8198/1/IND43620329.pdf) which suggests, emperically, that in _Opuntia_ ~50% of the calcium present is bound in oxalate salts. That brings them from the realm of dandelions down to somewhere between oranges and chicory (ignoring calcium binding by oxalate in those items). Which brings me finally to: Remember that the calcium values reported in most foods are not "available" calcium but total assayed calcium present. And if that wasn't bad enough, I've seen values that differ by as much as 100%. So, use a single resource for comparisons and then only as a guideline for which foods *may* provide the nutrient you seek. Some science is better than none but none is necessarily absolute.

Ya give yet? C'mon, say "Uncle!". S-a-y it!!!


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## Livingstone

HLogic said:


> Ya give yet? C'mon, say "Uncle!". S-a-y it!!!



It.


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## Madkins007

The guys over at Mazuri make a similar claim that they somehow know the right values, but they have so far chosen to not reply to my requests for either more info, sources, or just plain telling me what the magic numbers are.


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## armandoarturo

emysemys said:


> "Too much calcium? Not me, man!!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Doncha' just love those back legs in the first shot?"



HAHAAHa
Lovely pictures!!!
looks like if it was his golden treasure hahaha
He just can not get enough I guess hahahah


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## Livingstone

As far as I can tell, there is no magic number, bone density, absorbtion rate, and metabolism are all X factors between species, keepers, and climate. Unless Hlogic has a link to something... Everybody has their own opinion, a good friend of mine and herp expert explained that even if the animal was over supplemented with calcium, as long it was healthy and hydrated the excess would be defecated out with no ill effect. AND the effects of too little calcium are considerably worse than those of giving too much.

Good luck to all, I think we have officially beaten this dead horse.


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