# respiratory infection



## skuttle (Aug 30, 2013)

hi guys. i bought my tortoise for a check up. my vet adviced me to sedate him to check his mouth for possible stuck food or objects becausemy tortoise usually smacks his mouth and makes a sound but the sound is not always there when he smacks his mouth. when my tortoise fell asleep we noticed that his mouth was dripping with what looks like mucus. so my vet adviced to use an aspirator to blow his nostrils to see if something is stuck. then lots of mucus came out of his nostrils and mouth.. very sticky white with yellowish tinge. it came to the point that he was blowing a really big bubble from his nose like a balloon inflating and deflating when he breaths. can i ask what do you think it is upper respiratory infection or lower respiratory infection. by the way before i went to the vet he was eating really well andclean nostrils. all i noticed was there was small bubbles on the edge of his eyes near the nostrils and he smacks his mouth(sometimes with sound but usually none). my vet gave him tetracycline 0.12ml. he weighs 1250 grams by the way and more or less 7 inches. he is still eating the way he use to eat before the administration of the antibiotic but a bit weak. what do you think guys upper or lower respiratory infection? is this hard to cure? thanks


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## Baoh (Aug 30, 2013)

"Smacking of the mouth", as in small intermittent jaw movements, is often normal, but blowing bubbles is not normal at all. Neither is a large amount of colored mucous like that, which is cause for concern.


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## skuttle (Aug 30, 2013)

he didnt blow bubbles before he was checked by the vet. my vet thought that he may have something stuck on the roof of the upper jaw. so he use an aspirator the blow air into my tortoise nostril. to our surprise plenty of sticky mucus was excreted from his mouth and bubbles from his nose. the mucus is white with a tinge of yellow. my vet got a cotton to wipe the mucus. when you look at the mucus its predominantly white but when you look at the cotton that was used to clean the mucus its yellowish.


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## mikeh (Aug 30, 2013)

Could be either lower or upper RI. The fact that there was no discharge from nostrils could point to lower RI with mucus working its self upward into mouth from lower RI track. Sounds like you caught is at earlier stage. Later stage of lower RI progresses to hacking mucus, loud audible breathing with sound of congested lungs, even swollen front legs.
Keep him on antibiotics and watch for the mucus in the urine once infection starts to flush out. 

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## skuttle (Aug 30, 2013)

mikeh said:


> Could be either lower or upper RI. The fact that there was no discharge from nostrils could point to lower RI with mucus working its self upward into mouth from lower RI track. Sounds like you caught is at earlier stage. Later stage of lower RI progresses to hacking mucus, loud audible breathing with sound of congested lungs, even swollen front legs.
> Keep him on antibiotics and watch for the mucus in the urine once infection starts to flush out.
> 
> sent from mobile device using TFO app



how many shots of antibiotics is recommended to be sure that infection fully gone and wont reinfect? how long also to wait till mucus can be seen in urine? thanks


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## mikeh (Aug 30, 2013)

7days. What is the frequency of injections, daily or semi daily? Is it being injected in front or rear legs?

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Injections for seven days. Thick yellowy urine will appear within few days.The amount and thickness depends on severity of infection. If its not severe you may just see yellower and/or thicker urine or nothing at all.

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## skuttle (Aug 30, 2013)

My vet injects it in his body below the head and neck. He told
Me its a musclw holdin the carapace. Should
I ask
Hin to unject on the legs. He told
Me injecting in legs in painful.


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## mikeh (Aug 30, 2013)

He is doing it at the correct place. Wanted to make sure he is not injecting in rear legs.

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## sibi (Aug 30, 2013)

Injecting in legs can hit a nerve and cause damage. Injections need to be in the muscles. Yellowish color shows the infection was beginning to get bad, but you got it in time. Let the vet administer injections in around neck since it is easier on the tort. What does your vet suggest is the amount of days that he needs to take antibiotics? When my tort had that a lower RI, he was on antibiotics for 10 days. But, then again, his infection was very bad and he had wheezing. So, if he's on antibiotics for 7 days, just keep an eye on him for the next 2 weeks afterwards. Their system works very slow and it will take time to see him return to normal. In the meantime, I would thoroughly clean out his enclosure and sanitized everything in it to prevent re-infection. Keep higher temps in his enclosure especially at night.


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## AnnV (Aug 30, 2013)

I was injecting my poor Indian star every 3 days with Fortaz for his uri. Seven shots total, alternating legs. In the back of his front leg. Vet showed me how with the first in the office. She said I could bring him to her to inject, but that just wasn't feasible every 3 days. He was okay for the first couple, but I imagine the site got sore and he really reacted by pinning his leg in after the injection for the latter ones. I was practically sick to my stomach having to do this! Couldn't do the last one. It was too stressful for both of us. Didn't seem do a thing for him anyway.
After all this, mine is no better. :-( I may have to go back. Are there no oral medications? 

Ann from CT


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## sibi (Aug 30, 2013)

There are oral antibiotics that can be administered. Most owners have trouble getting their torts to open their mouths So, it's best to hide the med in some fruit he likes. Did the vet take x-rays of his bladder? If not, I suggest it be done. You want to make sure there's no stone in his bladder.


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## Sulcata_Sandy (Aug 30, 2013)

Hmmmm. Fortaz is the "fancy" name for a class of antibiotics called Cephalosporins. I wonder if Cephalexin would work as well. We have capsules in various mg's. One of my Torts is starting in on a URI (sniffles, runny nose, upper airway sounds). I increased temps and changed/sanitized his habitat and stones. Hoping he will clear it up and not get sick, so I'm watching him like a hawk.


Sandy
.......................................
Oregon Tortoise Rescue


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## skuttle (Aug 30, 2013)

sibi said:


> Injecting in legs can hit a nerve and cause damage. Injections need to be in the muscles. Yellowish color shows the infection was beginning to get bad, but you got it in time. Let the vet administer injections in around neck since it is easier on the tort. What does your vet suggest is the amount of days that he needs to take antibiotics? When my tort had that a lower RI, he was on antibiotics for 10 days. But, then again, his infection was very bad and he had wheezing. So, if he's on antibiotics for 7 days, just keep an eye on him for the next 2 weeks afterwards. Their system works very slow and it will take time to see him return to normal. In the meantime, I would thoroughly clean out his enclosure and sanitized everything in it to prevent re-infection. Keep higher temps in his enclosure especially at night.



Thanks ma'am sibi! He told me he wants every other day injection of antibiotics. Its my tortoise second shot today. I noticed since the first shot 2 days ago the syptoms of opening mouth and sound plus clicking in the mouth became worse. But he still eats a lot. But a bit weak a bit. Im using just paper for substrate since im in quarantine and treating his infection. What do you suggest to disinfect his tub? Im just pouring boiling water in the tub to clean it everyday. My vet suggested 3 shots everyother day and see if the antibiotics is working. I soak him twice or thrice a day. Honestly he didnt have any discharge in his nose and mouth since the day i got him5-6 days ago. It was when we sedated and used an aspirator to blow her nose thats when the mucus came out of mouth and nose. Till now there isnt any mucus in his nose or mouth but still hear the croaking noise and mouth opening that became more usual.


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## HerbsMommy (Aug 30, 2013)

DON'T INJECT IN THE LOWER BODY!! My emergency clinic vet told me that antibiotics need to bypass the liver and metabolize. This can only be done by injecting in the upper body. If you inject lower, the antibiotic can go straight to the liver and kill the tort


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## skuttle (Aug 31, 2013)

HerbsMommy said:


> DON'T INJECT IN THE LOWER BODY!! My emergency clinic vet told me that antibiotics need to bypass the liver and metabolize. This can only be done by injecting in the upper body. If you inject lower, the antibiotic can go straight to the liver and kill the tort



can i ask what do you mean dont inject the lower body? where is the exact location of the lower body you mean? thanks


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## Dizisdalife (Aug 31, 2013)

It probably means the back legs.


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## mikeh (Aug 31, 2013)

Yes, no back legs!!!

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## skuttle (Aug 31, 2013)

sibi said:


> There are oral antibiotics that can be administered. Most owners have trouble getting their torts to open their mouths So, it's best to hide the med in some fruit he likes. Did the vet take x-rays of his bladder? If not, I suggest it be done. You want to make sure there's no stone in his bladder.



why do you need to know if there is stone in the bladder? will RI make it worse or what? thanks


guys i remembered that brand of tetracycline mt vet is using has corticosteroid in it? is corticosteroids safe? thanks


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## HerbsMommy (Aug 31, 2013)

I'm not entirely sure which place. My vet did his shot in the thin skin by his neck/shoulder. She said "not the lower body" I'm not sure if legs are included since they aren't part of his resp or digestive system :/


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## ascott (Aug 31, 2013)

I would wonder why the vet did not test the mucus to confirm a diagnosis? 

If you are injecting antibiotics it should happen in the soft loose skin located between the neck and the front leg....not into the muscle--this will cause alot of pain that is not necessary....also, when treating a tort with antibiotics you should offer a couple of long warm water soaks each day (at least 30 minutes per warm water soak)....

Understand that the entire process of injections is very stressful for the tort....if your tort was not showing any signs of sickness and the only thing your tort was doing was clicking---I would have simply increased his normal enclosure temp to no less than 85 day and night and also still provided a basking spot at 100....the stress from the trip to the vet....the sedation...the poking and probing around...then injections...then the change of enclosure to a sterile paper towel environment can be way too stressful for the tort...especially since it sounds as though the tort was new to you to begin with....

I would let this tort be back in its regular enclosure....I would set him up with plenty of warm places for it to hide away in to try to get a sense of safety....


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## sibi (Aug 31, 2013)

I'm sorry skuttle. That comment was to AnnV, not to you. Her tort had a urinary tract infection and she was giving injections in the back legs. As far as the antibiotics with cortisone, sometimes that's necessary to decrease inflammation. So long as the vet gives the correct dose according to weight, it should be fine.



skuttle said:


> sibi said:
> 
> 
> > There are oral antibiotics that can be administered. Most owners have trouble getting their torts to open their mouths So, it's best to hide the med in some fruit he likes. Did the vet take x-rays of his bladder? If not, I suggest it be done. You want to make sure there's no stone in his bladder.
> ...






Angela, her tortoise has a RI since there was mucus found coming from the nose and mouth. There is no reason why a tort would be producing mucus other than from a RI or some obstruction. In addition, if the mucus is yellowish, this is even more evidence of an infection rather than an obstruction. The tort did need to go to a vet and be put on antibiotics. Holding back from seeing a vet could cost her the life of her tortoise. Yes, all of what you said is stressful, but better to put the tort under a little stress, and be on the road to recovery than to lose him from pneumonia.

Also, antibiotics has to be injected into the muscle in order to be most effective. Injecting into soft tissue isn't gonna cut it. It's when true with humans. Also, washing the enclosure and replacing the substrate is all that needs to happen so that he's not gonna get re-infected. I think she's done that already.


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## skuttle (Aug 31, 2013)

sibi said:


> I'm sorry skuttle. That comment was to AnnV, not to you. Her tort had a urinary tract infection and she was giving injections in the back legs. As far as the antibiotics with cortisone, sometimes that's necessary to decrease inflammation. So long as the vet gives the correct dose according to weight, it should be fine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





So far his doing well eating and walking around. He is still the pig few days ba k before the first injection. I noticed the clicking and croaking sounds he does when opening his mouth increased. But the way his acting it doesnt look like his sick. By the way noticed also he vomits mucus (not sure if its just saliva but its bubble)everytime after he gets a shot. He had his second shot yesterday. Tomorrow is his third. Im soaking him thrice a day or twice with warm qater for 15 to 20 minutes to make sure he doesnt get dehydrated because kinda increased the temp of enclosure. He drinks a lot of water btw also. Everytime he eats a meal he drinks twice or thrice from the bowl till he finishes the greens.
I was thinking maybe his throat kinda clogged by mucus so he drinks a lot to drain it away so he can eat better ?


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## skuttle (Sep 2, 2013)

Hi guys can i ask how many shots or hiw many days till you can see results or you can say if the antibiotics are effective? Im giving ne tortoise oxytetracycline with corticosteroid. been three shots 5 days of antibiotics. He still does the croak sound often.


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## sibi (Sep 2, 2013)

It depends on the tort and how bad the RI is. Did a vet prescribe the antibiotics? Is the meds being injected every other day for five days or ten? If so, the vet or you should see some improvement soon. Things aren't getting worse, are they? I would not worry about the croaking sound he's making with his mouth for now. Let's just see if the RI clears up first.


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## skuttle (Sep 2, 2013)

sibi said:


> It depends on the tort and how bad the RI is. Did a vet prescribe the antibiotics? Is the meds being injected every other day for five days or ten? If so, the vet or you should see some improvement soon. Things aren't getting worse, are they? I would not worry about the croaking sound he's making with his mouth for now. Let's just see if the RI clears up first.



Yup the vet prescribed the antibiotics. Been three shots already every other day sp that males it 5 days now since the antibiotics is on his system. Chomp still eats but not like 5 days ago that he eats all i put in his enclosure and his kot that muh active now since the treatment. What do you mean by getting worse? If im not mistaken lower RI at later stage tortoise gasp air right every minutes right? Like they cant breath, do not move at all and dont eat right? So far i just see those symptoms before treatment like openinh mouth and croaking plus eats less than before and not that muh active.


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## sibi (Sep 2, 2013)

You have to remember your tort is recovering from a RI a d their system works real slow. That means the meds are still working its way into his system and it's gonna take time for him to be his old self again. I say, perhaps two weeks after he finishes his meds, you should see him much better. By worse, I mean if he stops eating, drinking, peeing, pooping, and does nothing all day long. That would be getting worse not better, right? Thankfully, he's reacting just like he should...getting better but isn't quite the same as before yet. So, keep making him comfortable, feed him fresh food daily, and administer his meds until it's finished.


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## skuttle (Sep 2, 2013)

Thanks ma'am really hopin he gets well. Can i ask if RI is really contagious? I read that easily transmitable? I have sulcata hatchling in the same room but different enclosure but quite near.Do you think as
Long as i dont use same enclosure dishes soaking tub etc it wont get transmitted.


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## sibi (Sep 2, 2013)

It's good that you have all your torts separated. So long as you clean your hands and use separate bowls, your sulcatas should be fine. It's a good habit to have anyway even if your sick tort wasn't sick. Keep us posted on his progress.


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## skuttle (Sep 2, 2013)

Yup thank you very much ma'am thanks again


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## ascott (Sep 2, 2013)

> *Angela, her tortoise has a RI *since there was mucus found coming from the nose and mouth. *There is no reason why a tort would be producing mucus other than from a RI or some obstruction.* In addition, if the mucus is yellowish, this is even more evidence of an infection rather than an obstruction. The tort did need to go to a vet and be put on antibiotics. Holding back from seeing a vet could cost her the life of her tortoise. Yes, all of what you said is stressful, but* better to put the tort under a little stress,* and be on the road to recovery than to lose him from pneumonia.



Sylvia, I do not agree with you here, but that is alright---our experience is different. However, a RI was "guess" as the vet did not do proper testing to assure a diagnosis--this unfortunately is too common place and this error can cause antibiotics to be given and if there is no diagnoses RI then what ever (if anything) can be masked and can then lead someone to think all is fine only to flare up worse later....so, there is no diagnosis here for RI. Antibiotics are very very rough on the system of a tortoise..therefore, a true diagnosis should have been acquired before a "lets try this" treatment was offered. There are other reasons mucus can develop, if the animal has an injury within the mouth or throat then mucus can emerge--a different method of treatment can be offered in that case....so, yes, there are other reasons for mucus. Putting "a little" stress on a tort is one thing, but a toss into the car, then being forced in place while some vet probes and pokes and inserts a needle into a tort is well, a very intrusive amount of stress.



> Also, antibiotics _*has to be injected into the muscle in order to be most effective.*_ Injecting into soft tissue isn't gonna cut it. It's when true with humans. _*Also, washing the enclosure and replacing the substrate is all that needs to happen so that he's not gonna get re-infected. *_I think she's done that already.



Again, we are in a huge disagreement here....injection into the muscle of a tortoise leg can and does cause permanent damage--it can cripple a tortoise, especially if given in the rear legs---the animal receives the same benefit from the medication injected into the loose skin ---please do your research thoroughly when discussing this---it is nowhere like that of treating a human.

I would be most shocked by the last part of your statement....please understand that if a tort is truly tested and diagnosed with an URI then the entire enclosure equipment should be discarded---and if the tort has occupied an outdoor space, then that space should not be used by that or any other tort for at least a full year....please understand that I know what I am talking about on these two last points....I am not trying to be whatever, but do need this to be stated clearly so that hazardous info is not spread about....also, when we treat a tort that has a diagnosed URI--that tort is not being cured of the disease, it is simply having the symptoms relieved...the disease remains forever with the tort...


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## mikeh (Sep 2, 2013)

amen!

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## skuttle (Sep 3, 2013)

Hi ma'am ascott, can i ask how can you diagnose RI? My problem is in our country vets just examine physically the tortoise. No test are being done loke x ray or other stuff. I noticed my tortoise before having antibiotics opens mouth like smacking his jaw sometimes but not always. and sometimes also makes a croaking sound while doing the smacking thing. i noticed him doing that quite often when his stressed like trying to eacape the enclosure or soaking in water in the sun. My vet checked the mouth when he sedated him but didnt find anything stuck. But when i had the vet injected tetracycline with steroid i noticed him after drinking water and eating breathes through his mouth now. Like his catching his breath after drinking and eating a mouthfull of greens. What do you think? Is it really RI? But never seen mucus on his nose and mouth before the shots. Just saw mucus after injection of the sedative to make him sleep. And everytime he os given the shots in his chess muscle area below the head


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## ascott (Sep 3, 2013)

Signs include a mucopurulent discharge from the nares, puffy eyelids, eyes recessed into the orbits, and dullness to the skin and scutes.

Does this sound like your tort....think about it quickly and think does this fit your tort BEFORE the vet visit?

http://www.tortoise-tracks.org/wptortois...t-disease/

This is a good reference for explanation/overview of this affliction....please do read all of it...while it does indicate Desert Tortoise in the title, when you read on you will see it also can affect a variety of tortoise species...

I wonder, if the solution that your vet used in trying to clear the nostrils in itself did not create the discharge due to irritation..this can happen and if the vet is not very experienced with tortoise then could be mis read as something it is not.....

I apologize, but if I were you and had a tort that had some clicking I would not think first it was an infection, I would have gone and checked all of my set up first....make sure your temps are good (no less than 80 at all times day and night) and a basking spot of 100 degrees and daily uva and uvb exposure for this species of tort....I would also examine the type of substrate I was using and I would also examine the diet I was offering....sometimes the clicking noise is simply a sign that the enclosure/environment is too dry and is that simple...sometimes torts will click when they fuss with their beak...

The pumping action you describe when the tort is breathing is also a normal thing....as long as that pumping is not open mouth gaping for air ----

Now, understand---I am not a medical professional by any means. I do however have some practical knowledge of caring for torts as well I have done alot of research on this particular subject....so I am sharing with you what I would do...

May I see a pic of your tort? Can you make the picture of the torts face?


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## mikeh (Sep 3, 2013)

*Re: RE: respiratory infection*



ascott said:


> Signs include a mucopurulent discharge from the nares, puffy eyelids, eyes recessed into the orbits, and dullness to the skin and scutes.
> 
> Does this sound like your tort....think about it quickly and think does this fit your tort BEFORE the vet visit?
> 
> ...



I believe the concern begin with the pictures of what OP thought were puffy eyes. Also concern was empty chewing seen in last 15 seconds of his radiated torts video. Can any experts look at the pics again and the video. This empty chewing is not gasping for air, breathing is normal, it is seen in healthy individuals, but I have seen same behavior in RI where tort is trying to chew often to clear mucus from back of its mouth. 

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=o0s86p&s=5

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## skuttle (Sep 3, 2013)

ascott said:


> Signs include a mucopurulent discharge from the nares, puffy eyelids, eyes recessed into the orbits, and dullness to the skin and scutes.
> 
> Does this sound like your tort....think about it quickly and think does this fit your tort BEFORE the vet visit?
> 
> ...



i'll try to take photos tom ma'am angela thanks! here is my opinion. i have read the link you sent me. like i said i just got the tortoise few weeks back. my primarily concern back then was the smacking of the jaw that my tortoise was doing like he was using his toungue to clear his mouth/throat sometimes with sound usually with no sounds. after the vet injected the sedative i noticed sticky white substance dripping from his mouth and creating bubbles from his nose. also after the second shot also i noticed while he enclosed his head with his legs due to the pain i guess of the shot. sticky bubbly stuff was dripping in between his front legs which covers his head. after the shots i noticed also there is now clicking sound and the breathing to mouth after eating became prevalent but not to the point that his gasping for air and stretching his neck. its just like after jogging you tend to breath from your mouth rather from your nose but only for a while. the link you showed me was regarding upper respiratory infection right? correct me if im mistaken but i have read that there is an upper and lower respiratory infection and based on what i have read. usually upper have the mucus on nostrils and lower respiratory infection symptoms is just open mouth breathing. my tortoise has clear eyes and nostrils. that made me think that maybe he has lower respiratory infection. hence he has the clicking and croaking sound plus the smacking with the jaw trying to clear his throat of mucus. that made me believe that when my vet used an aspirator to blow his nose plenty of mucus dripped from his mouth and nose. maybe he has many mucus before i got him so he does that smacking thing to clears his throat with somtimes croaking sound.




mikeh said:


> ascott said:
> 
> 
> > Signs include a mucopurulent discharge from the nares, puffy eyelids, eyes recessed into the orbits, and dullness to the skin and scutes.
> ...


thanks mikeh! yup thats what im telling about it looks like his using his tongue to remove something from the mouth or throat. his eyes and nose is clear from any discharge that made me think he might have lower respiratory infection just caught on early stage? what do you think? what bothers me now is i really cant google any article regarding if lower respiratory infection can be cured or when the symptoms disappear he still will have it inside him? i mean can tortoise be cured of lower RI or the antibiotics just alleviates them from the symptoms and you just prolong there life? any opinions>?


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## ascott (Sep 3, 2013)

My final word to you would be....get the tortoise tested properly to find out what is truly ailing him..... get an xray done to to determine if the issue is LRTD and if clear there then have the tort tested to see if URTD present....do this and find out if there is a real issue .... An internal abscess can be present and offer up the result you have described...I mean there are so many variables...

There could be so many things in play here and for us to simply guess and online diagnose is a stretch.....I can only offer what I know just as the others....you will have to have this tort tested to find out if there is an actual illness...

There is no way for someone here to "tell you" what the diagnosis is....just not possible.....but we can only offer what we believe to be the issue....


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## skuttle (Sep 4, 2013)

I understand ma'am thanks. We
Dont have trst here to know if its urti or lrti they just do
Physical symptoms of tortoise having RI and give shots. Got no choice but to give the shot tather than waiting and if things gets worse might be hard to treat. How long usually do
Antibiotics given? I have had him given 4 shots already every other day. 0.12 cc of oxytetracycline.


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## Sulcata_Sandy (Sep 4, 2013)

The veterinarian who prescribed the antibiotics should have explained the course of treatment.
Generally, antibiotics are given to reptiles for 14 to 21 days. I suggest you call the hospital you took him to, and have the technician check with the doctor or refer to the chart notes as to his/her treatment plan.

I would also strongly suggest an X-ray of your tort to either find or rule out pneumonia, or even detect early lung changes from respiratory disease. As stated above, no one can diagnose online, and it is actually illegal to do so. Diagnoses should only be given by a licensed DVM who is experienced in that animal (whether cat, dog, horse, camel or tortoise).

Any veterinary hospital, whether or not they have experience with reptiles, can radiograph a tortoise and forward the films to a Board Certified Radiologist who will review the films and submit a detailed written report with treatment recommendations. It is really not that costly.
If you did this at my practice, it would be less than $200.


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## skuttle (Sep 4, 2013)

SenjiSandy said:


> The veterinarian who prescribed the antibiotics should have explained the course of treatment.
> Generally, antibiotics are given to reptiles for 14 to 21 days. I suggest you call the hospital you took him to, and have the technician check with the doctor or refer to the chart notes as to his/her treatment plan.
> 
> I would also strongly suggest an X-ray of your tort to either find or rule out pneumonia, or even detect early lung changes from respiratory disease. As stated above, no one can diagnose online, and it is actually illegal to do so. Diagnoses should only be given by a licensed DVM who is experienced in that animal (whether cat, dog, horse, camel or tortoise).
> ...


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## johnreuk (Sep 4, 2013)

It's disturbing that there is some real misinformation here......
Regarding antibiotics and there action, and method of administration, I would advise you ask a qualified vet for an explanation. While I think this forum is excellent, and the advice is usually similarly top notch, it is worrying that some people are doling out medical advise when they are not qualified to do so, and in several cases the information is incorrect. 
Antibiotics do not always need to be injected into muscle to be effective.
However, intramuscular injections ARE indicated in some cases, and it is not going to kill the tortoise or cause its leg permanent damage (but there are always risks to any injection in any animal)
It depends on what antibiotic is being prescribed, as to what is the most effective route of administration.
Several people seem to be under the impression that 'antibiotics' are all the same.... they are very much not... they all have different indications, different mechanisms of action, side effects, and similarly different routes of administration.

I agree with senji sandy.... you should ask the vet about the course of antibiotics, and refer to them for medical advise of this nature.


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## Baoh (Sep 4, 2013)

johnreuk said:


> It's disturbing that there is some real misinformation here......
> Regarding antibiotics and there action, and method of administration, I would advise you ask a qualified vet for an explanation. While I think this forum is excellent, and the advice is usually similarly top notch, it is worrying that some people are doling out medical advise when they are not qualified to do so, and in several cases the information is incorrect.
> Antibiotics do not always need to be injected into muscle to be effective.
> However, intramuscular injections ARE indicated in some cases, and it is not going to kill the tortoise or cause its leg permanent damage (but there are always risks to any injection in any animal)
> ...



Agreed.


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## skuttle (Sep 6, 2013)

Hi guys. Just an update i just had ny 5th shot a while ago. My tortoise still eats but not that much still clear eyes and nostrils but still doing the smacking thing with his mouth with occational sound. I noticed also within the last few days his yawning a lot while eating and he adter
Swallowing a mouthful of veggies he inhales air once or twice like his compensating for air from the time he was munching on the veggies and swallowing. Is it normal
For tortoise to do that? Im on my 5 th shot and my vet told
Me we are done with shots if ever the tort stops eating then i'll bring him back but kinda worried still because the smacking with sound didnt disappear and he usually looks like trying to compensate for air while eating. The reason why im saying that his compensating for air is because he inhales (opens mouth to 1/4 of the max )air twice after swallowing the food sometimes also with sound. To put the story short i need advice if i will still continue the antibiotic to 7 or 10 shots to be sure because im worried if he doesnt get well i might reinject again in the future starting from the first shot and it will be more stressfull for his system. I dont get it why he doesnt do the croaking sound and opening of mouth when im in the vet for my vet to see. What do you think guys?


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## apromann4 (Sep 6, 2013)

Hope he recovers

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## skuttle (Sep 6, 2013)

apromann4 said:


> Hope he recovers
> 
> Sent from my S100 using TortForum mobile app


thanks man!


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## mikeh (Sep 6, 2013)

If the vet said your are done with shots, that would mean you prob reached the length of time which antibiotic can be given for and no further shots will help or should be given.

The smacking of the mouth is empty chewing, not gasping for air. The croaking sound you hear is upper beak grinding against lower beak, when jaws close. It may be normal. I observe empty chewing in all my torts, especially in the morning. Some more then others. 


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## sibi (Sep 6, 2013)

You're right Angela, we don't agree on some things; and for good reason. I too have done research ,and along with research, I've spoken to a few professionals in the field. So,don't accuse me of not knowing what I've learned through discourse, reading, and experience. Having said that, I can tell you that the OP had stated a yellowish mucus discharge from the mouth/nose. I tend to take the word of the OP and sometimes narrow the problem to specifics. So, I don't always state all possible reasons for mucus discharge. But, because it was yellowish, that was my primary concern. I also tend to be more cautious than cavalier in my opinions because too often here there are those who advise home remedies and avoid at all cost a recommendation to visit the vet. I, on the other hand, take a "better to be overly cautious than to lose your animal due to inaction" attitude. In a perfect world, it would be nice to get all the blood work and analyses of your animal BEFORE treatment. That's unrealistic in many cases due to the high cost of these tests and people's inability to afford all these tests. Also, in so many cases, it isn't necessary i.e. Prolepses, obvious RI symptoms. This is one such case with the OP. A diagnosis of RI was confirmed by an experienced vet. I may not like how many vets do things, but I will not place my experience over that of a vet who has the same opinion that i have concerning URI. Why? Because if i did that everytime my animals got sick, they would have died on me. Neither of us are experienced vets, and we don't profess to be so. Your experiences are as valid as mine; and as such, you can state what you think the OP should do BASED on your experience and knowledge, but so can I. 

Let me tell you what I've learned and read or experienced. I have an aquatic turtle of 25 years. 15 years ago she laid an egg and it caused a large prolapse. I had no idea what to do, and I was horrified. I took my turtle to a specialize vet and they gently pushed the tubular matter back in. They stitched her up, but it wanted to come back out. In the end, they had to cut out some dead tissue, and surgically put the matter back. It was a long recovery for her but, she survived some 15 years later!. 

I didn't need a diagnosis of a prolapse; it was obvious. This was not something a little honey would've cured. I have sullies that had URI with mucus discharge from both the nose and mouth. All other symptoms were there like lethargy, not drinking, eating but not as usual, etc. I knew something was wrong, even without a confirmed diagnosis. I didn't wait; my instincts were to take him to a specialized vet. Did the vet take a sample of mucus and confirm a RI? No, it wasn't necessary because his mucus, the coloring if it, the other symptoms all told me he was very sick with a URI. 

Now, for the method and why I prefer it. First of all, both my torts had a URI, and one was treated with injections under the skin areao
of the neck, the other IM. The one treated with under the skin had gotten sick again a week after the meds were finished. The one treated with injections IM stayed well thereafter. Both methods were acceptable to all the vets I've spoken to. However, to me, the proof was in the outcome. For me, that's the way I'll always go because it worked better. 

So, let's take the issue of the possible damage to nerves with IM injections. You should at least give ME the benefit of the doubt. I KNOW HOW TO INJECT MYSELF AND MY TORTS IM. I DO NOT inject the legs (neither the front or back). Nerve damage from injections in the legs is inevitable; that's why I don't inject legs. I find the muscles between the neck and the leg. I also alternate injection sites. I would think vets could teach owners the proper way to do this. So, to say that IM should be avoided is going over your expertise especially when many vets practice this method. 

Now, let's address the cleaning out of an enclosure. My goodness, are you saying that someone should throw out a glass enclosure that can be sterized and sanitized? It's ridiculous. I never said that all the bowls, dishes, and substrate can just be rinsed out and reused. In fact, I stated that the substrate should be completely replaced with a RI, or any other infectious diseases. Like glass, bowls made of glass can be sterilized. If you have a ceramic or wood bowl, I would discard those, but I stated before, I don't always broaden advice to be totally inclusive of the particular items many members use. I have totally sanitized the enclosures of my torts. All substrates were replaced, and all glass bowls were sanitized in boiling water, then with a sanitizing liquid that's absolutely kills any bacterial or fungi known to man. Like I said before, my torts were not re-infected because of my methods.

Finally, let's talk about the pain, suffering, and stress that any meds, injections, travel, strange encounters that our torts may go through. I am super sensitive to pain, suffering, and stress. Like most our members here, we love our torts or we wouldn't be here. I have all the time in the world. As such, I watch my animals for hours and hours. I get to know them very well. I've learned just how each one reacts to certain things. I've even learned to soothe them and calm them down in ways that some would think insane. So, when you imply that giving injections IM are painful and not necessarily the best method, I would tell you you are making a judgment against me that you have no right to make! I am well aware of stress and pain of injections. I'm well aware that the medicine is what's painful, not the actual needle, although the pain of the slight pinch of a needle is subjective. I am well aware of the stress it causes torts to subject them to these treatments. But when I weigh the advantages to the health or life of my torts against the disadvantages, I make a judgment call. Do I put them through this and help them get "cured," or do I just wait, apply home remedies, and have my tort continue to suffer with an illness that is treatable? Oh, and when I say "cured," it wasn't to be understood that the virus is killed off and could never return . Like I said, I don't always expand on what is actually meant especially when it isn't an issue at the moment.

Angela, I'll always opt to minimize the suffering of my torts over "let's see and wait" attitude. I have read too many experiences here where members waited until it was too late. I've read story after story of members not going to a vet because suggestions were given to try this, or try that, or just wait and see. Not me, and I'll always advise a vet visit when I believe it's warranted. You can either see my rational in the decisions I've made or advise, or you disagree. But, you can't say I'm wrong and you can't tell me how to advise others based on my experience and knowledge anymore than I can tell you how to advise others. Remember where we are. We're on a forum where members give advise that can either be taken or not. 

In the end, all of your points are a matter of opinion and/or methods...neither of which we have to agree or else the other is wrong! You do not corner the market on diagnosis, care, treatment, or feeling for tortoises any more than I do. If your intentions were good you would have PM me on your opinions. But because you are calling me out on these points, I will always defend myself against people like you. If you want to continue this nonsense, you may want to think about it first.


'ascott' pid='733486' dateline='1378224334']
Signs include a mucopurulent discharge from the nares, puffy eyelids, eyes recessed into the orbits, and dullness to the skin and scutes.

Does this sound like your tort....think about it quickly and think does this fit your tort BEFORE the vet visit?

http://www.tortoise-tracks.org/wptortois...t-disease/

This is a good reference for explanation/overview of this affliction....please do read all of it...while it does indicate Desert Tortoise in the title, when you read on you will see it also can affect a variety of tortoise species...

I wonder, if the solution that your vet used in trying to clear the nostrils in itself did not create the discharge due to irritation..this can happen and if the vet is not very experienced with tortoise then could be mis read as something it is not.....

I apologize, but if I were you and had a tort that had some clicking I would not think first it was an infection, I would have gone and checked all of my set up first....make sure your temps are good (no less than 80 at all times day and night) and a basking spot of 100 degrees and daily uva and uvb exposure for this species of tort....I would also examine the type of substrate I was using and I would also examine the diet I was offering....sometimes the clicking noise is simply a sign that the enclosure/environment is too dry and is that simple...sometimes torts will click when they fuss with their beak...

The pumping action you describe when the tort is breathing is also a normal thing....as long as that pumping is not open mouth gaping for air ----

Now, understand---I am not a medical professional by any means. I do however have some practical knowledge of caring for torts as well I have done alot of research on this particular subject....so I am sharing with you what I would do...

May I see a pic of your tort? Can you make the picture of the torts face?
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## ascott (Sep 6, 2013)

Sylvia, I hope you feel alot better after all of that ...so my dear, take a breath and understand, there was no reason for you to become so worked up as a result of my opinion....you see, as you stated, we both are allowed our opinions and to share them equally....


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## sibi (Sep 7, 2013)

Well, I'm glad to hear it from you. My rants do it all the time


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## Sulcata_Sandy (Sep 7, 2013)

Good thread. Interesting read. [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]


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