# How old do you list baby tortoises?



## LRTortoises (Sep 8, 2015)

I am flush with Marginated tortoises and am wondering when people tend to list them. They are all doing great, gaining weight and eating well. Last year I waited 3 months to sell 3 but this year I have a lot more and an incubator full of eggs.


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## wellington (Sep 8, 2015)

I'd like to know that too. The youngest people can safely sell them (safe for tort). Just don't forget the wording you need to use if they are under 4 inches in most states anyway, maybe all.
Btw, congrats on all your hatchlings this year.


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## mike taylor (Sep 8, 2015)

As soon as their little bellies are closed up and they are eating OK.


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## LRTortoises (Sep 8, 2015)

Oh no definitely all as that's a federal law.


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## wellington (Sep 8, 2015)

LRTortoises said:


> Oh no definitely all as that's a federal law.


I didn't know it was federal. The law is listed as if per state. Good to know though.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Sep 8, 2015)

From what I remember it was, “…4" or more unless for study or education purposes then smaller is ok per U.S. of A. federal regulations…" Hope this helps on some level.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Sep 8, 2015)

wellington said:


> The law is listed as if per state.


 I believe this is do in part to species being legal in some states while illegal in other states.


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## jaizei (Sep 8, 2015)

Cowboy_Ken said:


> From what I remember it was, “…4" or more unless for study or education purposes then smaller is ok per U.S. of A. federal regulations…" Hope this helps on some level.



That wouldn't apply. It has to be for legit, bona fide scientific or educational purposes.


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## G-stars (Sep 8, 2015)

I think it should depend whether or not they are being shipped. Some breeders will ship at one week old or less. Not a good idea in my opinion. 

The hatchlings I've produced I wait at least 6 weeks before I send them out to a good home. Longer if they are being shipped.


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## wellington (Sep 8, 2015)

jaizei said:


> That wouldn't apply. It has to be for legit, bona fide scientific or educational purposes.


Except that is what everyone posts and they ask if that's what it's for you say yes, they ship tort. Very few sold under 4 inches is for a legit, bonafide research


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## dmmj (Sep 8, 2015)

I'm researching to see how long baby tortoises live for


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## mike taylor (Sep 8, 2015)

Cowboy is right under four inches you can sell for scientific or educational purposes. If you are a commercial breeder then I would stick to four inches or larger . If you are a hobby breeder and sell to friends or family then sell them .


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## jaizei (Sep 8, 2015)

wellington said:


> Except that is what everyone posts and they ask if that's what it's for you say yes, they ship tort. Very few sold under 4 inches is for a legit, bonafide research



Doesn't matter. Unless he's operating as a business, the hobbyist exception would suffice. Most of those that try to use the 'scientific/education' exception are businesses trying to skirt the law.


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## Tom (Sep 8, 2015)

wellington said:


> I didn't know it was federal. The law is listed as if per state. Good to know though.



There is a federal law, and at least some states have their own laws.


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## wellington (Sep 8, 2015)

dmmj said:


> I'm researching to see how long baby tortoises live for


Me too. It's a very big group. Lots of research needed


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## wellington (Sep 8, 2015)

jaizei said:


> Doesn't matter. Unless he's operating as a business, the hobbyist exception would suffice. Most of those that try to use the 'scientific/education' exception are businesses trying to skirt the law.


Do you mean the 4 inch law does not apply to hobbyist?


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## jaizei (Sep 8, 2015)

wellington said:


> Do you mean the 4 inch law does not apply to hobbyist?



Lots of research needed


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 8, 2015)

dmmj said:


> I'm researching to see how long baby tortoises live for


 Until they are not babies anymore! 

I sell when I am sure they are eaten and poopen. They show some little growth that is beyond what an absorbed yolk will fuel. That is four to six week for leopards. I'm not sure the marginateds would be that different. 

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=1240.62

this law is always on the move. This last update is from April 2015.


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## LRTortoises (Sep 9, 2015)

My comments are in red. 


(c) _Exceptions._ The provisions of this section are not applicable to:

(1) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs for bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibitional purposes, other than use as pets.  (education, scientific research clause)

(2) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs not in connection with a business. (This is where we are able to sell as hobbyist to friends, family and other hobbyists--right?)


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## Tom (Sep 9, 2015)

wellington said:


> Do you mean the 4 inch law does not apply to hobbyist?



The _Federal_ 4" law does not apply to small time hobby breeders. Some state laws do.


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## Tom (Sep 9, 2015)

LRTortoises said:


> My comments are in red.
> 
> 
> (c) _Exceptions._ The provisions of this section are not applicable to:
> ...



You are correct.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 9, 2015)

At the TTPG I asked the speaker on this topic 'how many tortoises can I sell before I am no longer a 'small time hobbyist breeder'". Ahh, that's the slippery slope. If I sell at a trade show, if I comply with the California Franchise Tax board if if if. Does anyone care to clarify this line which separates the small time hobbyist breeder and the commercial person?


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## jaizei (Sep 9, 2015)

Will said:


> At the TTPG I asked the speaker on this topic 'how many tortoises can I sell before I am no longer a 'small time hobbyist breeder'". Ahh, that's the slippery slope. If I sell at a trade show, if I comply with the California Franchise Tax board if if if. Does anyone care to clarify this line which separates the small time hobbyist breeder and the commercial person?




Do you write off any tortoise related expenses for tax purposes?


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 9, 2015)

jaizei said:


> Do you write off any tortoise related expenses for tax purposes?



No, I don't, so maybe the IRS is the referee?


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## luvsdaheat (Sep 9, 2015)

>>As soon as their little bellies are closed up and they are eating OK.<<
Yep. We just sold 36 baby Sulcatas (from three in-ground clutches) to a Shop last weekend. They were a mix of 30, 23 and 17 days out of the ground. For what it's worth his criteria for accepting them were their 'belly buttons' closed - or nearly so, and that they're active and feeding.

*TOM: *would you check your profile posts, please? I wrote, asking about your profile pic. thanks, brad wolff


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## Tom (Sep 9, 2015)

Will said:


> Does anyone care to clarify this line which separates the small time hobbyist breeder and the commercial person?



As with so many things, I don't think there is a definitive answer to this. One "suggestion" that was proposed to me is that if you have a "real job", some other primary source of income, and tortoises are something you pursue as a hobby, outside of your "real job", then you are a hobbyist. After reading that sentence, I am quite sure you will come up with many questions and possible scenarios to question the assertion. This still does not answer your question of how many do you need to sell before you are no longer a hobbyist. According to this person, as long as your other income source remains the "primary" income source, you would be safe. Once the dollar amount of sold tortoises adds up to more than your primary income source, then you would no longer be a hobbyist.

I've had many conversations about the absurdity of enforcing laws like these with the people charged with enforcing them. They usually just make stuff up as they go.

I think what this will always boil down to is how the officer enforcing these laws feels about you on that particular day. There are so many animal rightists running our government and animal enforcement agencies now, that they can basically do whatever they want, whenever they want. Look at the elephant ankus legislation that just went through. No more elephants in the movie business in CA, just like that. Boom! Done. Its over. Now our legislators think they know more about training elephants than the people who have been doing it successfully for their whole lives. Rather than listening to career professionals who set the bar, they listened to political activists with an obvious bias and clear agenda. Sad day, I tell ya'.


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## dmmj (Sep 9, 2015)

it's a badly written laws left open to interpretation and abuse no surprise it was written by politicians


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 10, 2015)

Tom said:


> I've had many conversations about the absurdity of enforcing laws like these with the people charged with enforcing them. They usually just make stuff up as they go.



You have once again outdone yourself with a quotable quote. 

That is the essence of why I sell and ship they way I do, I intentionally express why the sale is happening and use a certified reptile shipper. The first "judge" in every legal interaction is the person implementing the law. Might even be a national public debate surrounding that very POV going on right now. I have most frequently had good if not great interactions with all law and ordinance enforcement people often guiding me to do what I want to do without doing it wrong. But that once in awhile episode scares the feces out of me.

So say for example, I'm a hospital administrator and my salary is 145K/year and I gross 100K/year in baby tortoises, I would be less commercial than someone who only sells tortoises but grosses 55K/year? Still seems wonky. I think Tom you are hitting the nail so very squarely on the head...

Tom R. "I've had many conversations about the absurdity of enforcing laws like these with the people charged with enforcing them. They usually just make stuff up as they go."


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## jaizei (Sep 10, 2015)

Will said:


> No, I don't, so maybe the IRS is the referee?



That would be one factor. I don't think it's necessarily difficult to differentiate between hobby and business. Is the person operating/acting as a business; have they incorporated/use a DBA, do they sell non-tortoise products (Mazuri, bulbs), are they also buying tortoises from other sources for resell? Etc. Actions > words

If you're making money, it's usually more advantageous to say you're a business. It's much more common for a hobbyist to try to pass off as a business than vice versa. Unless your hobby is making money. 

I don't think the amount or division of income really has anything to do with it.


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## mike taylor (Sep 10, 2015)

I can tell you if you only have one set of breeding stock you are a hobby breeder . If you have sixty breeds of Tortoise and selling all them babies you're making money then you just maybe be a business . You are never going to get rich from one breeding pair of Tortoises .


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 10, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> I can tell you if you only have one set of breeding stock you are a hobby breeder . If you have sixty breeds of Tortoise and selling all them babies you're making money then you just maybe be a business . You are never going to get rich from one breeding pair of Tortoises .



Getting rich? Not sure I know what that means at all. Do you mean wealth accumulation? That is a somewhat different thing. Getting rich is about having cash to spend in abundance relative to your 'needs'. Gangsta rapers and sport stars and other entertainment types are the examples of this yeah? Accumulating wealth is about building an income stream based on capital accumulation that you don't otherwise fool with. That is established with a labor or resource based income stream. 

The small $$ I make from tortoises is indeed making me rich, I spend it all on the tortoises in excess of what they make. 

Just sorta having some fun here Mike, like Steve Martin once said (per show) "I learned just enough in my college psychology class to screw me up for the rest of my life". With me it was many courses in economics/business, I did not get a degree in these fields but there was once a systems where after X number of units the cost per semester did not go up, I gorged on economics and business, all taken credit/no credit.


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## mike taylor (Sep 10, 2015)

That was meant to be a little sarcastic. If you can make a business off Tortoises and turtles and become financially stable and quit your day job ,then I say you're rich . ha-ha


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## Yvonne G (Sep 10, 2015)

I doubt that will ever happen. I spend way more on tortoise-related expenses than I make on the babies.


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## mike taylor (Sep 10, 2015)

Yeah Will likes to use is college education on me. Ha-ha But I have a degree in common since. Just picking Will don't throw horse apples at me please Jacqui already has that one rapped up .


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 10, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> Yeah Will likes to use is college education on me. Ha-ha But I have a degree in common since. Just picking Will don't throw horse apples at me please Jacqui already has that one rapped up .



Yeah, using that education, The thing is most of what I bring here in terms of biology I learned whilst in High School. I threw some college at @dmmj regarding being alive and emergent properties and was appropriately ignored. I am usually up to my knuckles in mouse apples everyday, I prefer not to fool with the equine variety. 

But like those people who were sports stars in school then didn't go 'pro' but kept exercising and playing, I too have been a life long learner of things that interest me. No trophy case, but I'd like to think of TFO as the city league for our sport of keeping tortoises. It's fun and I like the exercise. I also exercise to be good at the sport, sorta go hand in hand. I know we have some 'soccer' parents here too, don't get them started! 

Will


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## LRTortoises (Sep 10, 2015)

This is all a very helpful discussion. I know moved around from the Original post a bit. With a breeding group of Marginateds and Redfoots I feel like a hobbyist for sure. Not getting rich off them by any stretch of the means.

I think I am landing on 2 months as my time I will ship out. It seems like I am seeing both growth and solidness. Here are the first two clutches of my season. These are from the Marginated adults that used to be @GBtortoises


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## mike taylor (Sep 10, 2015)

I wish I had more time to think out stuff I put on here . Most of the time I post on the run . But as for college I have some hours no degree . ha-ha One day I'll have time to get a business degree . I like reading Kelly's threads that dude knows his tort stuff .


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## GBtortoises (Sep 11, 2015)

I ship babies anytime after 10 days old. That 10 day period allows time for their yolk sacs to be completely dissolved and healed, for their shells to take "normal" shape and for me to observe each one eating and drinking. Beyond that time period there is no real changes except the beginning of their growth period to adulthood. Their survival process starts immediately out of the egg and remains basically the same throughout their young lives until they reach the young adult stage. As long as they were born healthy, are at 10 days they will be at 90 days, at 180 days and so on _as long as_ they are provided the means to do so in captivity by their keeper. There is no point where they are more or less "fragile". It's all dependent upon the environment that they are in.


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## LRTortoises (Sep 11, 2015)

GBtortoises said:


> I ship babies anytime after 10 days old. That 10 day period allows time for their yolk sacs to be completely dissolved and healed, for their shells to take "normal" shape and for me to observe each one eating and drinking. Beyond that time period there is no real changes except the beginning of their growth period to adulthood. Their survival process starts immediately out of the egg and remains basically the same throughout their young lives until they reach the young adult stage. As long as they were born healthy, are at 10 days they will be at 90 days, at 180 days and so on _as long as_ they are provided the means to do so in captivity by their keeper. There is no point where they are more or less "fragile". It's all dependent upon the environment that they are in.




Yeah to be honest part of me just likes having baby tortoises for a few months. Plus I know I give them a good humid and diet start.


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## THBfriend (Sep 11, 2015)

I *never* sell my Hermann's tortoise hatchlings. I wait until after their first winter, which they of course spend brumating/hibernating. After that, they're at least 8 months old. And I only sell tortoises in spring anyway, so that they have the entire summer to get used to their new home.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 11, 2015)

GBtortoises said:


> I ship babies anytime after 10 days old. That 10 day period allows time for their yolk sacs to be completely dissolved and healed, for their shells to take "normal" shape and for me to observe each one eating and drinking. Beyond that time period there is no real changes except the beginning of their growth period to adulthood. Their survival process starts immediately out of the egg and remains basically the same throughout their young lives until they reach the young adult stage. As long as they were born healthy, are at 10 days they will be at 90 days, at 180 days and so on _as long as_ they are provided the means to do so in captivity by their keeper. There is no point where they are more or less "fragile". It's all dependent upon the environment that they are in.




Yeah, 10 days, how fast do you suspect the yolk is used, not just absorbed, and before the tortoises is actually digesting food it ate? I had occasion to dissect several hundred Diamondback terrapins over about 16 years, and even though they are eating and defecating within a week, that yolk becomes an internal 'nutrient reservoir' that slowly releases food into the GI tract. Small testudo are clearly not terrapins, no need to point that out. The very few sulcata neonates that I have necropsied showed a similar pattern at several weeks of age. A still very distinguishable yolk, fully inside the abdomen, and associated via a small 'tube' near the stomach, to the GI. It was still provided nutrition.

Have you had occasion to see they are autonomous of the 'lunch mom packed' at ten days?

"I sell when I am sure they are eaten and poopen. They show some little growth that is beyond what an absorbed yolk will fuel. That is four to six week for leopards. I'm not sure the marginateds would be that different." from post 18 of this thread.


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## allegraf (Sep 11, 2015)

LRTortoises said:


> I am flush with Marginated tortoises and am wondering when people tend to list them. They are all doing great, gaining weight and eating well. Last year I waited 3 months to sell 3 but this year I have a lot more and an incubator full of eggs.



I generally hold my cherry hatchlings for at least a month to make sure they are off to a strong start. Too many time well intentioned hobbyist want a hatchling and don't realize how sensitive hatchlings are to their environment. When a hatchling starts showing signs of failing health, it is usually a fast downward spiral for the hatchling. Sad for everyone when that happens. If I was selling to another knowledgable hobbyist I would sell earlier, but a month is the shortest time I keep my hatchlings before selling. So far so good.


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## LRTortoises (Sep 11, 2015)

Thanks everyone. 6-8 weeks seems to be when I am selling at. By then I know they have eaten pooped and just about doubled in weight since hatching.


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## Tom (Sep 14, 2015)

I find that the longer they live in grow in their first environment, the greater "margin of error" the new keeper will have.

GB is correct in that there is little difference between 10 days and 180 days, as long as the environment is correct, but a 100 gram baby can withstand more mistakes for longer than a 20 gram hatchling can. If there are no mistakes, then size and age won't matter.

I consider the above on a case by case basis depending on who I'm selling too, and I know other breeders consider this too. I would sell a hatchling to Will at any age he wanted. I would not sell a hatchling to a first time keeper until it had a little more size and age on it. Generally, I prefer to hold to my hatchlings for 60-90 days. I don't keep and breed tortoises as a business and I don't really care about the money, so I'm not in any hurry to "move" the inventory. I care about the health and well being of the animals first and foremost, and secondarily, I care about the new owner having a positive experience. I think holding on to a baby for a longer time period will generally increase the chances of that inexperienced keeper having success. They still need to do things "correctly", but a larger, older baby allows more leeway for those inevitable imperfections in the housing or care routine.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 14, 2015)

Tom said:


> GB is correct in that there is little difference between 10 days and 180 days, as long as the environment is correct, but a 100 gram baby can withstand more mistakes for longer than a 20 gram hatchling can. If there are no mistakes, then size and age won't matter..



The best possible environment won't make up for an animal who did not develop correctly. It's an individual by individual animal matter. One big hurdle to demonstrate that the tortoise is a "doer" to use a scientific mumbo jumbo term, is to make sure they can intake and defecate food autonomous from the yolk "lunch packed by Mom" to use another scientific mumbo jumbo term.

The time is not based on the competence of the future keeper or what environment is available.

Many have noticed the occasional one tortoise out of 10, all hatched and raised together, that is just not a doer at a few months of age. Vet's and animal farmers have speculated, in conversation with me, that some growth or other metabolic pathway is just 'not there'. This is true with chickens (near genetically identical in a house of 35K), to the single or few birth's/hatches in small groups. 

A good _standard_, for lack of any other better way to put it, is to see that the animal, _any animal_, shows independence of direct parental influence. For tortoises, as they are, that is mostly achieved when the tortoise shows that it can eat and poop food independent of yolk. 

It is a criteria independent of environment, transport shock, keeper competence etc.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 14, 2015)

allegraf said:


> I generally hold // hatchlings for at least a month to make sure they are off to a strong start.



~ We follow the same protocols, however a few experienced keepers want them sooner and many inexperienced keepers want them older and bigger!


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## LRTortoises (Sep 15, 2015)

Tom said:


> . I think holding on to a baby for a longer time period will generally increase the chances of that inexperienced keeper having success. They still need to do things "correctly", but a larger, older baby allows more leeway for those inevitable imperfections in the housing or care routine.



I agree wholeheartedly. I have considered hold on to my Marginateds for 1 year and to sell them as yearlings, but unfortunately the cost and time of upkeep starts to really get high for that many. However with keeping them in a humid environment on a good diet with humid hides I could also maybe assure smoother shells. HMM


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 15, 2015)

Maybe the 4 inch rule becomes more oppressive and start to include hobbyist, then this will be moot and the price sold-for will go up. I do see many people want the youngest possible neonate, I have a past friend who often had inquiries about selling eggs so they could hatch in the customers home. This had been an interesting thread @LRTortoises . It sounds like you have a healthy concern for both the animals and the tortoise owner.


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## Tom (Sep 15, 2015)

Will said:


> I do see many people want the youngest possible neonate, I have a past friend who often had inquiries about selling eggs so they could hatch in the customers home.



I did exactly this with my tortoises in the 2015 Growth Thread. Got the eggs the day they were laid, incubated and hatched them myself.

Being an OCD perfectionist, I don't think anyone will start my babies as well as I will. My problem with buying babies is that no one does it as well as I do (in my mind…), so the longer they stay with the breeder, the more "damage" that is done. There are certainly exceptions to this and most of the people who I have bought babies from, are exceptions to this.


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