# Possible MBD in Baby Sulcata?



## cait_lr (Nov 23, 2016)

Hi everyone, I'm kind of freaking out right now. I've been private messaging people left and right, and I'm honestly terrified for my baby's life. I think my sulcata is beginning to show signs of possible MBD? 

Long story short, there was a misunderstanding when it came to purchasing his UVB lightbulb a while ago, and we ended up using the wrong kind for about 3 weeks. As soon as I realized he wasn't getting the proper UVB he needed, I bought a replacement bulb immediately. However, he's recently started to begin showing symptoms of MBD, such as lethargy, unwillingness to eat, soft shell & plastron... ): I'm so worried right now. He hasn't been eating very much at all lately, but tonight I was (thankfully) able to get him to eat some spring mix. However, he's gone back to sleeping and hasn't moved since. Tomorrow I'm planning on soaking him in baby food, as well as purchasing a calcium bone. 

Does he have MBD? If so, is there any kind of cure? My parents are in a bit of a financial situation, and told me they can't afford to take him to a vet. I'm honestly terrified, I don't want to lose him. ): 

Oh, here is some more background information just in case: 
-He is roughly around 2 months old, about 3 inches
-He lives in a 30 gallon tank
-Average temp. of about 82 degrees, basking 95, night time mid 70's
-Moist coconut fiber substrate 
-Daily soaks, around 10-15 minutes 
-Diet consists of mostly grass, weeds, spring mix, and the occasional kale, cucumber & carrots. Calcium supplement is added around once or twice a week. 

Thank you everyone.


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## dmmj (Nov 23, 2016)

those are not signs of Metabolic Bone Disorder. They actually sound like signs of a tortoise that was started out dry. Do you know the background of this tortoise before you got it?


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## cmacusa3 (Nov 23, 2016)

Also the night temps are too low. This baby needs to be kept warm and humid. No less than 80 at night


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## cait_lr (Nov 23, 2016)

dmmj said:


> those are not signs of Metabolic Bone Disorder. They actually sound like signs of a tortoise that was started out dry. Do you know the background of this tortoise before you got it?



Oh, thank goodness. I got him as a gift from my grandparents, from breeders in New York, called "Tortoise Town." I'm not sure how they started out their tortoises honestly, but I'll definitely look into that now. Sorry if I seem ignorant. This is my first reptile, and there are still some things I have to learn. 

Despite not having MBD, do you think he may be ill? It's still kind of unusual for him to be this lethargic. ): 
Thank you!


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## cait_lr (Nov 23, 2016)

cmac3 said:


> Also the night temps are too low. This baby needs to be kept warm and humid. No less than 80 at night



Will definitely try and raise the temps. Thanks!


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## cmacusa3 (Nov 23, 2016)

Have you read the care sheets on the site? I would also suggest posting a picture of the set up. We can provide you with some advice on things we can see that could cause some of these issues.


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## dmmj (Nov 23, 2016)

is the plastron soft and pliable from being a newborn tortoise or is it getting softer?


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## cait_lr (Nov 23, 2016)

Here are some photos of the set-up. In his food bowl is some spring-mix from earlier. Thanks!


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## sibi (Nov 23, 2016)

Dave is absolutely correct. MBD is mostly discernable (without an x-rays) with squishy carapace and plastron and/or weak hine legs. As the tort grows and the condition had not been corrected, it will eventually die. The good news is that your baby doesn't show signs of that. Torts that develop MBD have little or no exposure to natural sunlight or a good UVB bulb, have no calcium supplement, and have inadequate diet and exercise. None of the above applies to your tort, right? What you have to ajust is that night temp! Sulcata babies should never be in temps below 80 degrees. All your other temp levels are good. And, I hope you don't have any kind of light at nighttime cause that can cause issues. What about his poop? Is he going and if so, how does it look? If he hadn't pooped, how long had it been since you've seen him poop? Also, what kind of lighting do you now have? Can you show us a picture of the box the bulb came in? Oh, and one more thing, if he contours yo be lethargic, when you soak him, try using Pedialyte (unflavored electrolytes given yo babies when they aren't eaying, and they have diarrhea). Usually, this will perk yhem up. Remember to use the electrolytes ay room temps or else heat it a bit before putting it in the soak.


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## cait_lr (Nov 23, 2016)

dmmj said:


> is the plastron soft and pliable from being a newborn tortoise or is it getting softer?



I'm honestly not sure. It is possible that it's because he's a newborn, but I don't remember his plastron being this soft. I hadn't paid much attention to it before I realized his behavior was off.


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## cmacusa3 (Nov 23, 2016)

Ok so what I see right off the bat is the screen top, that does filter some of the UVB and it's also letting all your heat and humidity escape. Cut some small holes in the screen but make them small so the lamps don't fall inside the enclosure then wrap the screen with aluminum foil so it closes up the tank then make the holes in the foil where the holes are in the screen for the lights. That will get temps back up


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## cmacusa3 (Nov 23, 2016)

Ok so what I see right off the bat is the screen top, that does filter some of the UVB and it's also letting all your heat and humidity escape. Cut some small holes in the screen but make them small so the lamps don't fall inside the enclosure then wrap the screen with aluminum foil so it closes up the tank then make the holes in the foil where the holes are in the screen for the lights. That will get temps back up


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## cmacusa3 (Nov 23, 2016)

Do you have any night heat? You said that coir is moist and at night the temps are dropping to whatever the room temps are 70ish. This tort needs to be warm asap, I think this is the major issue.


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## cait_lr (Nov 23, 2016)

sibi said:


> Dave is absolutely correct. MBD is mostly discernable (without an x-rays) with squishy carapace and plastron and/or weak hine legs. As the tort grows and the condition had not been corrected, it will eventually die. The good news is that your baby doesn't show signs of that. Torts that develop MBD have little or no exposure to natural sunlight or a good UVB bulb, have no calcium supplement, and have inadequate diet and exercise. None of the above applies to your tort, right? What you have to ajust is that night temp! Sulcata babies should never be in temps below 80 degrees. All your other temp levels are good. And, I hope you don't have any kind of light at nighttime cause that can cause issues. What about his poop? Is he going and if so, how does it look? If he hadn't pooped, how long had it been since you've seen him poop? Also, what kind of lighting do you now have? Can you show us a picture of the box the bulb came in?



Thank you for the response. It's a huge weight off my shoulders knowing he does not have MBD.
Regarding the night time temps, it gets kind of cold here (around 68-70 degrees) in our home at night, so it's been kind of hard trying to maintain the temperature after dark. Do you have any suggestions on how I can raise them without a night bulb?
Regarding his poop, since his diet is mostly greens, his poop is usually a green color. His stools seem to be fine, they don't seem watery or anything. I believe I last saw him poop yesterday. 
Also, I currently do not have the bulb boxes on me but I will definitely search for them and try to get a pic. Sorry about that.


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## cait_lr (Nov 23, 2016)

cmac3 said:


> Ok so what I see right off the bat is the screen top, that does filter some of the UVB and it's also letting all your heat and humidity escape. Cut some small holes in the screen but make them small so the lamps don't fall inside the enclosure then wrap the screen with aluminum foil so it closes up the tank then make the holes in the foil where the holes are in the screen for the lights. That will get temps back up



Okay, thanks. That will definitely be my Thanksgiving DIY project, haha. Quick question though, if I block all the holes with aluminum foil, will there still be a good source of ventilation?


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## cmacusa3 (Nov 23, 2016)

cait_lr said:


> Okay, thanks. That will definitely be my Thanksgiving DIY project, haha. Quick question though, if I block all the holes with aluminum foil, will there still be a good source of ventilation?


Yes he will still get some air. You have to close this thing off. I would recommend keeping those lights on to keep it warm until you can close it up and get some night heat. Place him under the log just to keep it dark for him. It's a must you read those care sheets in the Sulcata section on the forum.


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## cmacusa3 (Nov 23, 2016)

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/


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## cmacusa3 (Nov 23, 2016)

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-45180.html


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## cait_lr (Nov 23, 2016)

cmac3 said:


> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-45180.html



Thank you! I think I remember reading these in the past, but I better take a closer look at them. 
PS: I will try raising his temps and see how things go from there. Fingers crossed he isn't sick.


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## sibi (Nov 23, 2016)

You won't be able to keep heat and humidity by just using aluminum foil. I suggest you get a piece of plywood (1" thick) draw a circle from your light lamp, cut it out so you can place the lamp on it. For ventilation, use a drill to put holes through the plywood at both ends. If possible, cut out an opening to be able to add food and clean out the enclosure. If you create a door with hinges, that would be best. It's the best way to hold in heat and humidity short of a closed chamber like the ones Tom build for his babies. Have you seen those? If not, I strongly recommend you do. When your baby grows a little bigger, you'll need to consider what enclosure you'll build for your ever growing sulcata. What country/ state do you live, BTW?


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## cmacusa3 (Nov 23, 2016)

sibi said:


> You won't be able to keep heat and humidity by just using aluminum foil. I suggest you get a piece of plywood (1" thick) draw a circle from your light lamp, cut it out so you can place the lamp on it. For ventilation, use a drill to put holes through the plywood at both ends. If possible, cut out an opening to be able to add food and clean out yhe enclosure. If you create a door with hinges, that would be best. It's the best way to hold in heat and humidity short of a closed chamber like the ones Tom build for his babies. Have you seen those? If not, I strongly recommend you do. When your baby grows a little bigger, you'll need to consider what enclosure you'll build for your ever growing sulcata. What country/ state do you live, BTW?


My idea was a quick fix, I agree with the above but something needs to be done immediately and yes it will keep the heat and humidity in. I just wouldn't make it a permanent fix.


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## Kasia (Nov 23, 2016)

cait_lr said:


> Here are some photos of the set-up. In his food bowl is some spring-mix from earlier. Thanks!
> View attachment 192962
> View attachment 192963
> View attachment 192964
> ...


I would say that for now as small adjustment like lowering the lamps bit into the enclosure will help with both temperature and UV exposure. UV lights, an ordinary one has a low range (check yours on the bulbs box) sometimes you have to put it c.a. just 20 cm above tort to get a decent exposure.


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## sibi (Nov 23, 2016)

cmac3 said:


> My idea was a quick fix, I agree with the above but something needs to be done immediately and yes it will keep the heat and humidity in. I just wouldn't make it a permanent fix.


I guess it's better than what she has now. But, it's not for permanent use, like you said. The bottom line is that nothing she can do will hold in the heat and humidity like a closed chamber. Having said that, I raised a couple of sullies using wood and Plexiglas, and it never held humidity 100%. I have, however used a fogger 24/7 allowing some humidity to escape and it still gave my torts 70-80% humidity most of the time. A fogger is expensive, but a necessity when you have a tank for an enclosure. It cost about $70. If the OP gets one, I would make sure I keep the receipt in case it fails. You can either get a refund or an exchange if within the year warranty. The first two I bought fail just after a year! The last one I bought still works. I've used it for two torts now. I've placed it in storage, but if the OP wants it, she can send me a personal message and I can get it shipped to her.


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## cait_lr (Nov 23, 2016)

cmac3 said:


> Yes he will still get some air. You have to close this thing off. I would recommend keeping those lights on to keep it warm until you can close it up and get some night heat. Place him under the log just to keep it dark for him. It's a must you read those care sheets in the Sulcata section on the forum.





sibi said:


> You won't be able to keep heat and humidity by just using aluminum foil. I suggest you get a piece of plywood (1" thick) draw a circle from your light lamp, cut it out so you can place the lamp on it. For ventilation, use a drill to put holes through the plywood at both ends. If possible, cut out an opening to be able to add food and clean out the enclosure. If you create a door with hinges, that would be best. It's the best way to hold in heat and humidity short of a closed chamber like the ones Tom build for his babies. Have you seen those? If not, I strongly recommend you do. When your baby grows a little bigger, you'll need to consider what enclosure you'll build for your ever growing sulcata. What country/ state do you live, BTW?



I put this little aluminum foil lid together just now. Is this what you guys mean? I just spent half an hour trying to cut the metal holes with a pair of scissors, haha. There are now random shards of metal on my floor that I have to clean up, hopefully before I step on them.




As for the plywood, I don't have any on me right now, but I will try to put that together sometime this week. Hopefully this foil cover works until then.  Thank you for the suggestion! I will take a look at Tom's. Also, sibi, I live in Illinois.

Edit: I just placed the foil lid on top. It's been about 5 minutes and the glass is already beginning to fog up like crazy. Is this normal?

Edit 2: Oh my goodness!! He's moving!! For the first time in days! I'm so excited, I can't contain myself. Thank you guys so much!


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## sibi (Nov 23, 2016)

cait_lr said:


> I put this little aluminum foil lid together just now. Is this what you guys mean? I just spent half an hour trying to cut the metal holes with a pair of scissors, haha. There are now random shards of metal on my floor that I have to clean up, hopefully before I step on them.
> View attachment 192967
> View attachment 192968
> 
> ...


Would you like my fogger? It has worked like a charm pumping a misty fog into the tank. Humidity levels will definitely be high. But, you will need to make sure the heat is there or else your baby can get a respiratory infection. Remember, warm and humid = good; cold and humid= bad.


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## sibi (Nov 23, 2016)

cait_lr said:


> I put this little aluminum foil lid together just now. Is this what you guys mean? I just spent half an hour trying to cut the metal holes with a pair of scissors, haha. There are now random shards of metal on my floor that I have to clean up, hopefully before I step on them.
> View attachment 192967
> View attachment 192968
> 
> ...


What are the temps now? And, for nights, you really need to invest in a 100 w ceramic heat emitter (CHE). This will keep him warm at night and he'll be able to sleep. You see, with a light on all night, your baby can't sleep well. He's been exhausted not sleeping well because of the cold and/or light. Poor baby!


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## cait_lr (Nov 23, 2016)

sibi said:


> Would you like my fogger? It has worked like a charm pumping a misty fog into the tank. Humidity levels will definitely be high. But, you will need to make sure the heat is there or else your baby can get a respiratory infection. Remember, warm and humid = good; cold and humid= bad.



Oh, thank you for the kind offer. I think it will be alright, as long as I keep moistening his substrate & keeping his temperatures up. After putting on the aluminum foil lid, I can already notice a huge difference, with his glass fogging up right away. 
He is now walking around and I'm just so relieved. I can now sleep soundly tonight.  Thank you again for the help.


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## cait_lr (Nov 23, 2016)

sibi said:


> What are the temps now? And, for nights, you really need to invest in a ceramic heat emitter (CHE). This will keep him warm ay night and he'll be able to sleep. You see, with a light on all night, your baby can't sleep well. He's been exhausted noy sleeping well because of the cold and/or light. Poor baby!



Oh, I feel awful now. How horrible I've been to poor Hubert. A trip to the pet store is in due time! 
The temperature is currently at around 88 degrees overall, about a 6 degree increase from before. His basking spot is now at 100, and the night temp is TBD.


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## sibi (Nov 23, 2016)

cait_lr said:


> Oh, thank you for the kind offer. I think it will be alright, as long as I keep moistening his substrate & keeping his temperatures up. After putting on the aluminum foil lid, I can already notice a huge difference, with his glass fogging up right away.
> He is now walking around and I'm just so relieved. I can now sleep soundly tonight.  Thank you again for the help.


I guess you'll need to keep yhe light on all night, right? Just know that your baby isn't sleeping fully. He'll be tired from lack of good sleep. But, if you get a Che, he'll not only be more active, but he'll eat more too.


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## cait_lr (Nov 23, 2016)

sibi said:


> I guess you'll need to keep yhe light on all night, right? Just know that your baby isn't sleeping fully. He'll be tired from lack of good sleep. But, if you get a Che, he'll not only be more active, but he'll eat more too.



I usually turn the lights off at night. Hopefully with the foil cover on, some of the heat will be contained until morning. I will try to get a che asap. Thanks!


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## JoesMum (Nov 23, 2016)

cait_lr said:


> -Daily soaks, around 10-15 minutes
> -Diet consists of mostly grass, weeds, spring mix, and the occasional kale, cucumber & carrots. Calcium supplement is added around once or twice a week.
> 
> Thank you everyone.


Sorry if I am repeating advice you have already had. 

Soaks should be for a minimum of 20 minutes. 

A tiny pinch of calcium powder should be sprinkled on food three times a week , but no more as you can overdo it. ("once or twice" isn't enough)

Sulcatas cannot digest sugars in food properly - they cause digestive and kidney problems - so sweet foods like carrot, bell pepper, tomato and fruit shod only be fed very sparingly and very occasionally... if at all.


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## cmacusa3 (Nov 24, 2016)

cait_lr said:


> I put this little aluminum foil lid together just now. Is this what you guys mean? I just spent half an hour trying to cut the metal holes with a pair of scissors, haha. There are now random shards of metal on my floor that I have to clean up, hopefully before I step on them.
> View attachment 192967
> View attachment 192968
> 
> ...


Yes this should work for a quick fix. I can post a few pics of the plywood idea if you need. I use plywood for my small tanks for my box turtle babies. Yes fogging up is normal and that's what you want


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## Tom (Nov 24, 2016)

All the advice given above about improving the enclosure and temps is good advice. But I'm not sure it addresses what is going on with your tortoise. See the big notch between the scutes of your baby's carapace? That is an indication that he/she was started too dry in his/her first few days and weeks before you got him/her. Sadly, this is typical in our country. Most of the care info out there is based on 30 year old, incorrect assumptions about how this species lives in the wild, and its wrong. This is not a "desert" species and dry conditions do not suit them. They hatch during the start of the hot, wet, rainy, humid, monsoon season, and these are the conditions we need to be attempting to simulate for them to flourish. During the dry season, they are underground in warm, damp burrows.

Read this for a better explanation of what is likely going on there:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

I hate breaking this news to people, but I figure it is better to know, than not know.

Some of them make it though and survive with good care, and some don't. The point is to do your best and hope for the best, but don't be surprised if your baby does not make it. Hope for the best and expect the worst. Also, no amount of spending money or vet care can fix this, if significant kidney damage was done before you even got this baby. So let your mind be at ease. If you had a billion dollars in your pocket and assembled the best team of veterinarians in the entire world, it would not save a baby that is too damaged from its early care after hatching.

Wishing you the best of luck.


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## cait_lr (Nov 24, 2016)

Tom said:


> All the advice given above about improving the enclosure and temps is good advice. But I'm not sure it addresses what is going on with your tortoise. See the big notch between the scutes of your baby's carapace? That is an indication that he/she was started too dry in his/her first few days and weeks before you got him/her. Sadly, this is typical in our country. Most of the care info out there is based on 30 year old, incorrect assumptions about how this species lives in the wild, and its wrong. This is not a "desert" species and dry conditions do not suit them. They hatch during the start of the hot, wet, rainy, humid, monsoon season, and these are the conditions we need to be attempting to simulate for them to flourish. During the dry season, they are underground in warm, damp burrows.
> 
> Read this for a better explanation of what is likely going on there:
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/
> ...



Oh no.... So there isn't anything I can do? ):


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## Yvonne G (Nov 24, 2016)

I don't think this has been said here before: Screen filters out most of the UVB rays. There should be no screen between the UVB light and the habitat.


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## Tom (Nov 24, 2016)

cait_lr said:


> Oh no.... So there isn't anything I can do? ):



What you can do is daily soaks, the right foods, perfect environmental conditions and load on heaps of hope. As I said, some of them pull through. You just shouldn't feel like it is your fault if this one doesn't. It would be the breeders fault and it would be awesome if you could explain this to them and get them to understand. Or get them to come here, and we will explain it.


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## sibi (Nov 24, 2016)

Based on the realities of Tom's statements, most of us that own sulcatas who have had health issues with them will enjoy a few years or decades at best. It's a harsh reality that I'm having to get grips of especially since I've cared for one that I adopted with severe MBD. The first two that I received from a friend started out in cold, dry conditions. I have the resources to give them the best care, but I know deep inside that one day, perhaps before they're 20 years old, one or all will die despite the great care they're receiving now. I hope you can help your tort live a comfortable life and enjoy your time with him.


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## cait_lr (Nov 24, 2016)

Tom said:


> What you can do is daily soaks, the right foods, perfect environmental conditions and load on heaps of hope. As I said, some of them pull through. You just shouldn't feel like it is your fault if this one doesn't. It would be the breeders fault and it would be awesome if you could explain this to them and get them to understand. Or get them to come here, and we will explain it.



Okay, thank you ): Oh, gosh I'm so worried right now. Right now he's eating (thankfully.) But I'll have to continue to soak him and pray that he makes it.


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## cmacusa3 (Nov 24, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> I don't think this has been said here before: Screen filters out most of the UVB rays. There should be no screen between the UVB light and the habitat.



I mentioned it and she cut holes in the screen


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## cait_lr (Nov 24, 2016)

Day 2 Update: 

I've had my eye on him all day today. He has been mostly sleeping, but he did, however, get up and eat some spring mix three times today, which is a lot more than usual. I soaked him in warm water twice for around 20 minutes, once in the morning and once in the evening. I also soaked him in some Gerbers baby food (the Yam kind) for a little over half an hour. 

His overall temp is around 90 degrees, and the foil is doing a great job of keeping the humidity in. I hope he recovers soon. Lots of prayers have been sent today.


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## Chucklehutch (Nov 28, 2016)

How is your tortoise doing, @cait_lr? I also bought a new hatchling sulcata from Tortoise Town about a month ago, and I did not have the wonderful information found on this forum to guide me. My tortoise was also lethargic and not eating, worse over the last week. While I am in the process of creating a more suitable enclosure, tin foil has come to my aid and I am able to maintain temps above 80 and humidity above 80%. And my tortoise is much happier, seems to be eating better, and more active. However, given what Tom has said, I worry about the long term prognosis for my tortoise, and am expecting the worst, hoping for the best. This first month has been rough for him/her, and I wonder what the long term effects will be. I really appreciate the wealth of information on this forum, and if my new pet meets his demise, I know I will be much more prepared during round 2. But again, I'm hoping for the best.


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## cait_lr (Nov 29, 2016)

Chucklehutch said:


> How is your tortoise doing, @cait_lr? I also bought a new hatchling sulcata from Tortoise Town about a month ago, and I did not have the wonderful information found on this forum to guide me. My tortoise was also lethargic and not eating, worse over the last week. While I am in the process of creating a more suitable enclosure, tin foil has come to my aid and I am able to maintain temps above 80 and humidity above 80%. And my tortoise is much happier, seems to be eating better, and more active. However, given what Tom has said, I worry about the long term prognosis for my tortoise, and am expecting the worst, hoping for the best. This first month has been rough for him/her, and I wonder what the long term effects will be. I really appreciate the wealth of information on this forum, and if my new pet meets his demise, I know I will be much more prepared during round 2. But again, I'm hoping for the best.



Hi, thanks for the reply. I guess we're in the same boat here! As for Hubert, there have been a ton of ups and downs this week, but I still have high hopes for him. There have literally been days where he won't move an inch, to days where he runs all over the place and eats like a monster. 
I'm glad to know your tortoise is getting better, and I hope he has a successful recovery. Raising the temps should definitely help! I didn't know about the foil trick until just now, I feel so bad when I think about all the heat that had been escaping these past months. Good thing you caught it early, though. 
And I agree, the long run is definitely worry some, but we should still enjoy every second we have with them and do all we can to ensure they live happy lives from here.  I would love for you to keep me updated on the little guy, and best wishes.


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## TammyJ (Nov 29, 2016)

I think he may have too much difficulty getting to his water and food. I would sink the water dish more deeply into the substrate AND put a few stones in it. Also I would just use a rough tile or flat stone for the food dish.
He is adorable, and I very much hope he can make a good recovery. You are getting very good advice here about everything else!


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## cait_lr (Nov 29, 2016)

TammyJ said:


> I think he may have too much difficulty getting to his water and food. I would sink the water dish more deeply into the substrate AND put a few stones in it. Also I would just use a rough tile or flat stone for the food dish.
> He is adorable, and I very much hope he can make a good recovery. You are getting very good advice here about everything else!



Oh, great catch. Thank you, I will definitely make that adjustment!


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