# Double Door Night Box



## Tom

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to show all the pics.

This box will house my two 16 inch 2010 South African Leopard tortoise males. They had to be separated for aggression years ago and they cannot live together. Their enclosures are side by side and share a common wall, so this box will straddle the dividing line. Each tortoise will have its own 4x4' section with a removable divider in the middle, but I only have to run one heater.

I start by screwing the 2x4s that make the lip that keeps rain out to the top. The top is a full, uncut, 4x8' sheet of thin plywood. I started using thinner plywood because the 1.5" rigid foam insulation inside keeps the heat in and thinner plywood weighs less. Accordingly, since I have to lift the top open to clean, I want things as light as possible, so I make the frame inside the lid out of 2x2s to save weight on the lid. I use 2x3s and 2x4 everywhere else.

Here is the floor. I make it so that it fits inside the lid. I end up having to cut some off of the full 4x8' sheet of plywood to allow room for the top to fit over the bottom and keep out the rain. You can see that I have framed around the outside and middle. The insulation fits inside this frame and the floor rests on top of this framing so the weight of the tortoises doesn't squash my foam insulation. You can see the completed lid in the background. Also notice the cut outs for the doors.




Here is the insulation cut to size:




And dropped into place:




I've installed the floor on top of the insulation and frame here. I seal all the way around the frame and then again between the floor and frame with plain silicone sealant:




Next I attach the sides and back and begin framing:




Then I put the front on.




Inside view of the front, not all framed yet. I will frame the inside, cut and fit insulation, run a bead of silicone all the way around, and then put the inside plywood wall on.:




Too many pics for one post, so on to the next...


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## Tom

I make these little portals over my doors to keep rain ou on the rare occasion that we get rain here:








Here is the inside front and side all framed up and with insulation in place. Next I run a silicone bead put the walls up and screw them to the framing all around:




Here the sides, front and back are all sealed and buttoned up. I've added the little walled area that will keep the torts from touching the heater and you can see the removable divider in the middle. Next summer I plan to mix the males and females. When that finally happens I will probably remove the divider and let them all move back and forth between the pens as needed. This will give me the option of separating the male if he becomes too aggressive, and I can also close one door, remove the divider and make them all live on one side while I grow stuff to graze on one side or the other. Options. This box gives me lots of options.




I hate power cords sitting out exposed. They get weathered, tripped on, and I don't want the torts to have access to them.




Here is what I came up with for this situation. I ran the cord through this pipe into the ground and buried the remainder.




Same thing on the side where it plugs in:




Here it is all done and plugged in. No cord!  :





One more post and we will be done...


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## Justin 15

Looks great Tom  I wish I had the space etc.


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## Tom

Here is my usual box that I screw to the side to keep all my cords and electrical stuff contained and out of reach of the tortoises. Notice the weather stripping too. This is an important step in containing your warm air on a cold night.




I learned this trick from Joe, @Dizisdalife . These little computer fans circulate your warm air and humidity when the lid is all closed up at night. Keeps things more evenly heated all around.




I attach the heater to the floor with chain and screws. If this box flipped over in a giant earthquake, the heater wouldn't move.





I don't have all the tubs cut out yet, but you can see the shelves where the water tubs will sit. I use these tubs to give the interior of the box a little humidity. My climate is VERY dry year round, and I've found that keeping the warm night boxes humidified helps keep the growth going smoother once they all move outside.




Here is the finished product in place, up and running:




And finally the wide shot:


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## Odin's Gma

I have been looking for a small computer or similar type fan for the peak of my indoor greenhouse enclosure to circulate the warm air downward. How is yours wired?


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## Tom

Odin's Gma said:


> I have been looking for a small computer or similar type fan for the peak of my indoor greenhouse enclosure to circulate the warm air downward. How is yours wired?



Its a plug in type. You just plug it in and set the dial for the speed you want. You can find lots of them on Amazon. I plug mine into the thermostat. If the heater is on, the fan is on.


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## Odin's Gma

Tom said:


> Its a plug in type. You just plug it in and set the dial for the speed you want. You can find lots of them on Amazon. I plug mine into the thermostat. If the heater is on, the fan is on.


Awesome, thanks! I don't know how I missed them, all the ones I came across were USB or direct wire. Guess I have some more shopping to do.


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## Tom

Odin's Gma said:


> Awesome, thanks! I don't know how I missed them, all the ones I came across were USB or direct wire. Guess I have some more shopping to do.



Your not alone. I had to have some help getting my first couple too.


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## Odin's Gma

Tom said:


> Your not alone. I had to have some help getting my first couple too.


I finally found some, now to decide what size. Yet another learning curve.


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## Dizisdalife

Nice box you have built there @Tom.

I have used a couple of different sizes and speed ranges of these 115vac case fans. The trade off is noise versus air flow. The first one I got had the quietest rating, but didn't seem to push enough air to do what I wanted. My night box is 6' x 4', so the smaller fan just didn't cut it. I think the size was an 80mm x 38 mm low speed version. Since then I have installed a 120mm x 38mm high speed fan. It moves some air. When the box is too hot I turn it on and have it move the hot air out to help cool down the box for the night (like tonight). Be sure to order a speed controller when you order the fan. With the larger sizes and higher speeds I have found it necessary to be able to turn down the fan. 

Here is a link to where I have purchased them. http://www.acinfinity.com/120mm-fans/


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## Odin's Gma

Dizisdalife said:


> Nice box you have built there @Tom.
> 
> I have used a couple of different sizes and speed ranges of these 115vac case fans. The trade off is noise versus air flow. The first one I got had the quietest rating, but didn't seem to push enough air to do what I wanted. My night box is 6' x 4', so the smaller fan just didn't cut it. I think the size was an 80mm x 38 mm low speed version. Since then I have installed a 120mm x 38mm high speed fan. It moves some air. When the box is too hot I turn it on and have it move the hot air out to help cool down the box for the night (like tonight). Be sure to order a speed controller when you order the fan. With the larger sizes and higher speeds I have found it necessary to be able to turn down the fan.
> 
> Here is a link to where I have purchased them. http://www.acinfinity.com/120mm-fans/


Our greenhouse is 6'x3', my concern is that the peak is over 4 feet above soil level. We are in Minnesota and the room the enclosure is in is a lower level room, half underground, and stays very cool, generally in the 60's. Maintaining and directing the heat is going to be our challenge, cooling will not be an issue.
That said, I am looking for something low speed enough to avoid cooling the air much, just enough to gently circulate the warmer stuff downward. More of a lazy ceiling fan movement than a whizzing computer fan movement. 
In your opinion (both yours and @Tom ) with having used these before, do you have any recommendations for my situation?
Right now I am looking at this one (one of the same ones in your link!) but I am worried it will be too big:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009OXTWZI/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20


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## Dizisdalife

Odin's Gma said:


> Our greenhouse is 6'x3', my concern is that the peak is over 4 feet above soil level. We are in Minnesota and the room the enclosure is in is a lower level room, half underground, and stays very cool, generally in the 60's. Maintaining and directing the heat is going to be our challenge, cooling will not be an issue.
> That said, I am looking for something low speed enough to avoid cooling the air much, just enough to gently circulate the warmer stuff downward. More of a lazy ceiling fan movement than a whizzing computer fan movement.
> In your opinion (both yours and @Tom ) with having used these before, do you have any recommendations for my situation?
> Right now I am looking at this one (one of the same ones in your link!) but I am worried it will be too big:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009OXTWZI/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20


That is the fan I first used. Didn't seem to move enough air to evenly distribute the heat, but that might give the lazy ceiling fan effect that you are looking for. The one I am using now is a 120mm x 38 mm low speed. It moves twice as much air as the one in your link and is only slightly louder. Firm mounting helps minimize the noise.

Here is the model I have used for the last year, or so.
http://www.acinfinity.com/115v-ac-fans/120-mm-fans/115v-ac-cooltron-fan-120mm-x-38mm-low-speed/


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## Tom

Odin's Gma said:


> Our greenhouse is 6'x3', my concern is that the peak is over 4 feet above soil level. We are in Minnesota and the room the enclosure is in is a lower level room, half underground, and stays very cool, generally in the 60's. Maintaining and directing the heat is going to be our challenge, cooling will not be an issue.
> That said, I am looking for something low speed enough to avoid cooling the air much, just enough to gently circulate the warmer stuff downward. More of a lazy ceiling fan movement than a whizzing computer fan movement.
> In your opinion (both yours and @Tom ) with having used these before, do you have any recommendations for my situation?
> Right now I am looking at this one (one of the same ones in your link!) but I am worried it will be too big:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009OXTWZI/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20



I'd get the 120mm model and make sure you get the in-line speed controller. Its basically a dial type rheostat. You can use the bigger fan, but turn it down to get the level of air movement you want.


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## Odin's Gma

Tom said:


> I'd get the 120mm model and make sure you get the in-line speed controller. Its basically a dial type rheostat. You can use the bigger fan, but turn it down to get the level of air movement you want.



Something like this?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009DLW9RO/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20



Dizisdalife said:


> Firm mounting helps minimize the noise.


It also includes mounting hardware that I believe I can make work with little modification on the wood light fixture holder I built inside the greenhouse. Do you think adding some sort of rubber washers or something between the mount and the wood will also help with the noise and vibration?


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## Dizisdalife

Odin's Gma said:


> Something like this?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009DLW9RO/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20
> 
> 
> It also includes mounting hardware that I believe I can make work with little modification on the wood light fixture holder I built inside the greenhouse. Do you think adding some sort of rubber washers or something between the mount and the wood will also help with the noise and vibration?



Yes. That should work fine. I didn't use rubber in the mounting.


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## Odin's Gma

Dizisdalife said:


> Yes. That should work fine. I didn't use rubber in the mounting.


Thanks for the help, it has been ordered and should be here by Tuesday!


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## wellington

Odin's Gma said:


> Thanks for the help, it has been ordered and should be here by Tuesday!


Have you considered using a regular ceiling fan? Placed on a dimmer switch you can slow it down lower then the lowest setting. Switch it from summer to winter also works nice to help cool. They also have ceiling heater fans which would disperse the heat downward in a more even fashion. The little more expensive ones, maybe all of them, you can use with or without heat. I use a regular ceiling fan with an oil filled portable heater and it works great for my 20x8 shed. I would think the computer fans would be good for smaller boxes buy too small for a room size?


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## Odin's Gma

wellington said:


> Have you considered using a regular ceiling fan? Placed on a dimmer switch you can slow it down lower then the lowest setting. Switch it from summer to winter also works nice to help cool. They also have ceiling heater fans which would disperse the heat downward in a more even fashion. The little more expensive ones, maybe all of them, you can use with or without heat. I use a regular ceiling fan with an oil filled portable heater and it works great for my 20x8 shed. I would think the computer fans would be good for smaller boxes buy too small for a room size?


I don't need it for the whole room, just the greenhouse.


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## Checo Valdez

Hi Tom,

I'm as new at tortoise as I am at building stuff, so I have a couple of questions:

For the frame on the first picture, are you using a 2x2 or did you cut it to match the 1 1/2" of the insulation? What happen if there is the 1/2" between the plywood and foam?

When you refer to thinner plywood, are you talking about 1/2" or 1/4"? Is this only for the roof or walls also?

Thanks in advance for your response!


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## Tom

Checo Valdez said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> I'm as new at tortoise as I am at building stuff, so I have a couple of questions:
> 
> For the frame on the first picture, are you using a 2x2 or did you cut it to match the 1 1/2" of the insulation? What happen if there is the 1/2" between the plywood and foam?
> 
> When you refer to thinner plywood, are you talking about 1/2" or 1/4"? Is this only for the roof or walls also?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your response!



1. 2x2, 2x3, and 2x4, is all 1.5" thick when you lay it on its side. This fits with the 1.5" rigid foam perfectly. I use 2x2 in the lid to save weight and either 2x3 or 2x4 everywhere else.

2. I believe the plywood is 11/32". Its the stuff that is $15 and change per sheet at Home Depot. I use the same thickness of plywood for the whole box.

I'm happy that my box inspired you, so please ask as many questions as you like.


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## Checo Valdez

Tom said:


> 1. 2x2, 2x3, and 2x4, is all 1.5" thick when you lay it on its side. This fits with the 1.5" rigid foam perfectly. I use 2x2 in the lid to save weight and either 2x3 or 2x4 everywhere else.
> 
> 2. I believe the plywood is 11/32". Its the stuff that is $15 and change per sheet at Home Depot. I use the same thickness of plywood for the whole box.
> 
> I'm happy that my box inspired you, so please ask as many questions as you like.



Many thanks Tom, I will ask you a lot once I start building it.

I read 3 threads you have post about night boxes and they are all very well explained; I will adapt the idea to my space, tortoise size and budget.


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## Neal

From the pictures, it looks like the cuts on your insulation are pretty good. What are you using to cut them? I've tried both serrated and smooth blades, but those make a horrible mess. I have a hot knife but it takes forever.

I've always left the bottom of my night enclosures open to the ground. I understand it's extremely inefficient, but seems a more practical option for me since I am most concerned with the bottom becoming destroyed after a season or two from urine and feces. Do you ever need to replace the wood on the bottom?


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## Yvonne G

I put a straight edge next to where I'm cutting, holding it down tightly, then I use a razor blade cutter. I make several shallow swipes along the straight edge, going deeper each time.

My "straight edge" is a long piece of metal with a bevelled edge on one side.


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## Tom

Neal said:


> From the pictures, it looks like the cuts on your insulation are pretty good. What are you using to cut them? I've tried both serrated and smooth blades, but those make a horrible mess. I have a hot knife but it takes forever.
> 
> I've always left the bottom of my night enclosures open to the ground. I understand it's extremely inefficient, but seems a more practical option for me since I am most concerned with the bottom becoming destroyed after a season or two from urine and feces. Do you ever need to replace the wood on the bottom?



I use a long bladed retractable razor knife to cut my insulation. Makes super clean, smooth, straight cuts.

I've got several boxes that I've been using for several years now with nothing but untreated plywood on the bottom. I clean them as needed and use a thin layer of dirt to catch the pee and poo. I scrape out the mud, poop and dirt as needed and replace it with some clean dirt. Most of my boxes stay pretty clean since I soak all of the tortoises regularly. The worst one is my 4x4' box with my 4 female SA leopards. They make a mess in there every day or every other day. Bottom is totally fine despite being a muddy mess nearly every day.


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## Team Gomberg

Neal said:


> I am most concerned with the bottom becoming destroyed after a season or two from urine and feces. Do you ever need to replace the wood on the bottom?



This was my concern too Neal.

But Tom's box is super efficient so I simply lined the bottom with vinyl squares and caulked the connections. Tah-dah No damage to the floor.
I also added Coco coir (and eventually coco husk) as a substrate to make it a humid night box. 

IT WORKS WONDERFULLY!


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## Team Gomberg

It's smaller, only 2x4 and still heavy. I can't imagine the 4x8!!


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## Team Gomberg

Better image of the flooring.



Come on Tom, try the floor and damp substrate in your next box


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## kameya

Great work Tom...^_^

Regarding to the PVC pipe you used to hide the cord, what is the size of the PVC pipe did you use to run the cord through? Great idea about the cord management.


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## Tom

kameya said:


> Great work Tom...^_^
> 
> Regarding to the PVC pipe you used to hide the cord, what is the size of the PVC pipe did you use to run the cord through? Great idea about the cord management.



Ooh… I can't remember exactly. It was just some old stuff that I had laying around. It was just big enough to pass the fat end of the plug through. I think it was 2".


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## kamekothesulcata

Looks great! I'm looking for ways to make my own night box for my 15 inch sulcata


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## brokerheather

What are the largest tortoises you have? I'm trying to figure out size and equipment I need to build for a 100lb. Sulcata.


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## Tom

brokerheather said:


> What are the largest tortoises you have? I'm trying to figure out size and equipment I need to build for a 100lb. Sulcata.


 The 4x4 box will fit a 100 pound sulcata with no problem. Measure his width and height and add 2 or 3 inches for your door.


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## N2TORTS

Another example of a " double door" Hide ...when I used to keep sullies years ago ...












the kitty liked it too! ....


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## Fredkas

Team Gomberg said:


> Better image of the flooring.
> View attachment 156064
> 
> 
> Come on Tom, try the floor and damp substrate in your next box


Oh this is great.


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## AZtortMom

Really nice!


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## janevicki

Thanks for the step by step plan Tom. You are so logical! I'm going to refer to this thread when I have time to build the next heated house for my Burmese. Sorry if I'm asking something that you already covered, but where did you get the oil heater? Also where do you keep the probe end of the thermostat? Thanks again.


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## Angie Robinson

Tom said:


> Here is my usual box that I screw to the side to keep all my cords and electrical stuff contained and out of reach of the tortoises. Notice the weather stripping too. This is an important step in containing your warm air on a cold night.
> View attachment 150112
> 
> 
> 
> I learned this trick from Joe, @Dizisdalife . These little computer fans circulate your warm air and humidity when the lid is all closed up at night. Keeps things more evenly heated all around.
> View attachment 150113
> 
> 
> 
> I attach the heater to the floor with chain and screws. If this box flipped over in a giant earthquake, the heater wouldn't move.
> View attachment 150114
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have all the tubs cut out yet, but you can see the shelves where the water tubs will sit. I use these tubs to give the interior of the box a little humidity. My climate is VERY dry year round, and I've found that keeping the warm night boxes humidified helps keep the growth going smoother once they all move outside.
> View attachment 150115
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the finished product in place, up and running:
> View attachment 150118
> 
> 
> 
> And finally the wide shot:
> View attachment 150120


I see the tubs for humidity. Thank you. I have a lot of work ahead of me but grateful for the post and pictures


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## brokerheather

I LOVE the cord storage, going to have to copy that. I just built mine and put the computer fan in the top, so it can draw air in and through. Living in Phoenix I think that will be good in the summer. My vet suggested a dripping of frozen water setup, that I have also found a really cool thing to incorporate to make that doable. We also did a shelf for a medium sized water bucket. Now, I've got to figure out the equipment and how to set this dang thing!


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## Tom

brokerheather said:


> I LOVE the cord storage, going to have to copy that. I just built mine and put the computer fan in the top, so it can draw air in and through. Living in Phoenix I think that will be good in the summer. My vet suggested a dripping of frozen water setup, that I have also found a really cool thing to incorporate to make that doable. We also did a shelf for a medium sized water bucket. Now, I've got to figure out the equipment and how to set this dang thing!



In Phoenix, your tortoise will need to be underground in summer.

The problem with the fan drawing air in to the box is that the air temp outside is seldom the temp you want inside. Either its too hot outside and you want to keep the coolness of night time, or its too cold outside and you want to keep the warm heated air inside and not blow cold air in.


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## Bobbi Crane

Tom said:


> I make these little portals over my doors to keep rain ou on the rare occasion that we get rain here:
> View attachment 150101
> 
> 
> View attachment 150102
> 
> View attachment 150104
> 
> 
> Here is the inside front and side all framed up and with insulation in place. Next I run a silicone bead put the walls up and screw them to the framing all around:
> View attachment 150105
> 
> 
> 
> Here the sides, front and back are all sealed and buttoned up. I've added the little walled area that will keep the torts from touching the heater and you can see the removable divider in the middle. Next summer I plan to mix the males and females. When that finally happens I will probably remove the divider and let them all move back and forth between the pens as needed. This will give me the option of separating the male if he becomes too aggressive, and I can also close one door, remove the divider and make them all live on one side while I grow stuff to graze on one side or the other. Options. This box gives me lots of options.
> View attachment 150106
> 
> 
> 
> I hate power cords sitting out exposed. They get weathered, tripped on, and I don't want the torts to have access to them.
> View attachment 150107
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what I came up with for this situation. I ran the cord through this pipe into the ground and buried the remainder.
> View attachment 150108
> 
> 
> 
> Same thing on the side where it plugs in:
> View attachment 150109
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is all done and plugged in. No cord!  :
> View attachment 150110
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One more post and we will be done...


Thanks Tom! This was actually one of the posts I was looking at a couple months ago at how to make a heated house. I love the idea of making it to where can separate them from the inside. Great job!


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## Pearly

Tom said:


> I make these little portals over my doors to keep rain ou on the rare occasion that we get rain here:
> View attachment 150101
> 
> 
> View attachment 150102
> 
> View attachment 150104
> 
> 
> Here is the inside front and side all framed up and with insulation in place. Next I run a silicone bead put the walls up and screw them to the framing all around:
> View attachment 150105
> 
> 
> 
> Here the sides, front and back are all sealed and buttoned up. I've added the little walled area that will keep the torts from touching the heater and you can see the removable divider in the middle. Next summer I plan to mix the males and females. When that finally happens I will probably remove the divider and let them all move back and forth between the pens as needed. This will give me the option of separating the male if he becomes too aggressive, and I can also close one door, remove the divider and make them all live on one side while I grow stuff to graze on one side or the other. Options. This box gives me lots of options.
> View attachment 150106
> 
> 
> 
> I hate power cords sitting out exposed. They get weathered, tripped on, and I don't want the torts to have access to them.
> View attachment 150107
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what I came up with for this situation. I ran the cord through this pipe into the ground and buried the remainder.
> View attachment 150108
> 
> 
> 
> Same thing on the side where it plugs in:
> View attachment 150109
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is all done and plugged in. No cord!  :
> View attachment 150110
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One more post and we will be done...



Tom, I know those are old threads, but how wonderful of you to have posted all those night box threads!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!


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## Tom

Pearly said:


> Tom, I know those are old threads, but how wonderful of you to have posted all those night box threads!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!


You are welcome. I hope they help!

I've tried all sorts of ways to house tortoises outside and watched other people's attempts too. Deck boxes, sheds, dog houses, dogloos, buried trashcans, cinderblocks, hay bale houses, etc… I found all of them lacking and so I began designing and building my own. I learned new things as I built and used each box and I've continually found ways to improve them, and make them better for each species or individual. These threads about these boxes show the evolution of my design, and where I'm at currently with my ideas. They are not prefect, but they work very well for me.


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## TriciaStringer

What size is the heater you put in this box?


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## Cheryl Hills

Do you think this box would work in Ohio in the winter? Maybe if I double the insulation?


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## Ben02

What do you use to seal the box as I'm currently building one.


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## littleginsu

Hey, @Tom. Finally getting the supply list for making some night boxes and wanted to know what kind/size hinges and latches do you use for the top of the box? Thanks!


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## Tom

littleginsu said:


> Hey, @Tom. Finally getting the supply list for making some night boxes and wanted to know what kind/size hinges and latches do you use for the top of the box? Thanks!


Get the more expensive galvanized stuff. It will last longer. I do two 4" door hinges for the tops and usually two 2" galvanized hinges for each door. I use the sliding bolt latches for the doors and any of them will work.


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## littleginsu

Tom said:


> Get the more expensive galvanized stuff. It will last longer. I do two 4" door hinges for the tops and usually two 2" galvanized hinges for each door. I use the sliding bolt latches for the doors and any of them will work.




Thank you so much!


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## Donutsgranny

We have our outdoor house almost complete (though finishing touches on outside to be completed later. Neither my daughter or I are very good at this wood building but now we need idea for how to add a door, we'd like a double door so that we can get in the house periodically to clean it out. So I am thinking I need to frame around the inside top and sides then around the outside so I have something to attach the hinges too. What do you all think. I just hv that 2x 4 leaning on the bottom I need a bigger piece. For the roof we intend to just put a piece of plywood, insulation plywood. (finishing touches like a material to cover the outside we will have to add later. Will add either a piece of linoleum or a horse rubberized mat to floor. Hopefully with a oil filled radiator this should get us thru the winter. When I sy double door I mean like a shed door would be. This box sits on a concrete slab and is inside a chainlink dog kennel that has a roof, so I have to have a fixed roof as there isn't enough room to have a hinged roof.


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## Donutsgranny

Cheryl Hills said:


> Do you think this box would work in Ohio in the winter? Maybe if I double the insulation?


I think you would need to add heat too. This will be our guys first winter out, though we are in a warmer climate. Its already dropping into the upper 50's . Our tort house isn't complete, hope to get it at least closed in this weekend and I have a oil filled radiator on hand.


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## janevicki

Yes Cheryl, I agree with Donutsgranny, I would truly add more heat and the insulation if in Ohio. I am adding flappers to the inside of the openings to keep the warm air in and the cold out because mine go in and out of their warm house all day and sleep all night in it. So I will be adding doors too to keep other outdoor creatures from joining them during the night. 

Sigh, I will be needing to make a new "night box" for my tortoises soon for the upcoming winter. They have outgrown their old one in 3 years! (I did not think they would grow that fast.) Don't do what I did; make your "night box" as big as your max size of your tortoises so you only make the box once. 

Good luck everyone with their tortoise builds!


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## Donutsgranny

I'm still trying to come up with a plan for the door on mine. I have to make a shed type door, I think, so I can get in and out of it tomato adjustments for heating and cleaning.


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## Tom

Donutsgranny said:


> We have our outdoor house almost complete (though finishing touches on outside to be completed later. Neither my daughter or I are very good at this wood building but now we need idea for how to add a door, we'd like a double door so that we can get in the house periodically to clean it out. So I am thinking I need to frame around the inside top and sides then around the outside so I have something to attach the hinges too. What do you all think. I just hv that 2x 4 leaning on the bottom I need a bigger piece. For the roof we intend to just put a piece of plywood, insulation plywood. (finishing touches like a material to cover the outside we will have to add later. Will add either a piece of linoleum or a horse rubberized mat to floor. Hopefully with a oil filled radiator this should get us thru the winter. When I sy double door I mean like a shed door would be. This box sits on a concrete slab and is inside a chainlink dog kennel that has a roof, so I have to have a fixed roof as there isn't enough room to have a hinged roof.


A few helpful comments:

I think its a mistake to make the box so tall. All your heat will rise to the top so you'll be wasting a lot of energy heating air the tortoise will never be in, and that will simultaneously make it more difficult to heat the floor area where the tortoise is.
If the box were lower, say 24" on the outside and 21.5" inside, you'd be able to build a hinged lid that could be propped up with a 2x4 for cleaning, and a drawbridge style door that will hold in heat better than two big shed-style doors.
You've used OSB for the floor. I would recommend OSB for any part of the construction, but especially not on the floor where all the "mess" will be. You will likely have to replace that floor in a year or two. Might be better to just cover it now with some 11/32 plywood. This will make it last a lot longer, and you can just replace the plywood in a few years, if needed.
One advantage if you decide to keep the box that height, is that you can put your mini oil-heater up on a shelf to keep more floor space for the tortoise. Make the bottom of the shelf 2-3 inches taller than how big you think your tortoise will eventually get. Usually 16" is plenty. I'd run a small computer fan over the heater to blow the warm air down in a tall box like that.


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## Donutsgranny

Hi Tom,
Thanks for your insight it is appreciated. I should have made the box much smaller however its too late now, maybe I will add a kane mat to it so he will have a warm spot, and do the shelf idea. I will hang some plastic strips on the inside where the door is going so when I open one side he can go in and out, plus it will help keep out drafts. I will add the shelf for the oil heater too. We didn't plan this out very well. We came across two attic stair units., removed the stairs then we bolted them together. they had plywood on one side so we just screwed it down, then we added insulation to it and put a sheet of plywood on top and the basically built around it. What we found was the plywood we used didn't have enough support and would flex so when a neighbor was throwing out the osb board we cut it and laid it across the floor, it is not screwed down just fits very tightly. I'm getting a rubber horse mat and will lay it on top or home depot has some pretty cheap linoleum and maybe we could lay the down too. That shed is so heavy now its not going away. Hopefully it will get us through the winter months. To me this is more trouble than its worth but I can't convince my daughter to rehome him and she did do most of the work on the big box. The nights are creeping into the upper 50's so it is what it is for now, maybe next year we can figure out a way to make it shorter. The good thing is we put it together with mostly screws so we should be able to reuse a lot of it. Though I don't like the plywood she bought its too thin.


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## rideburton87

Team Gomberg said:


> View attachment 156062
> 
> 
> View attachment 156063
> 
> It's smaller, only 2x4 and still heavy. I can't imagine the 4x8!!



Those boxes look great, what type of heaters are you using inside?


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## Team Gomberg

rideburton87 said:


> Those boxes look great, what type of heaters are you using inside?


 I use a mini oil filled radiator on a separate thermostat


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## Donutsgranny

Thanks again for all the great advise. While I didn't want to take what we started apart I've added some of your advise. Here are some current photos.

So as you can see from our last post of Sept 30, we have added plywood to floor and a shelf. We also made the door opening smaller and added the bottom half of a dutch door, my intention was to have that part as a drawbridge door but I couldn't get it to work properly so. Then I came across a remnant of linoleum so added that on top of the plywood floor. Today I will add the top half of the door, then onto the heat and lighting. I'm feeling a lil better about all this but should have read this thread first and could have saved time and $ and it would have been more efficient. Any further advise is always good.


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## Tom

Donutsgranny said:


> Thanks again for all the great advise. While I didn't want to take what we started apart I've added some of your advise. Here are some current photos.
> 
> So as you can see from our last post of Sept 30, we have added plywood to floor and a shelf. We also made the door opening smaller and added the bottom half of a dutch door, my intention was to have that part as a drawbridge door but I couldn't get it to work properly so. Then I came across a remnant of linoleum so added that on top of the plywood floor. Today I will add the top half of the door, then onto the heat and lighting. I'm feeling a lil better about all this but should have read this thread first and could have saved time and $ and it would have been more efficient. Any further advise is always good.


This is a journey. You learn as you go. I certainly did. My first attempts at tortoise house building were flawed and not nearly as good as yours is. The thermometer will tell the tale about whether or not your box is "good enough". I bet it will be.

I'm concerned about the linoleum floor. Make sure the tortoise is able to walk on it without slipping. Slick floors can cause orthopedic problems for them.

I'm glad you've shared your journey here and think it will help others (including me!) learn. Once you start using the box, I hope you'll share your temperatures, experiences, and insight with us.


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## Donutsgranny

Seems I finished just in time as temperature this morning was 51 degree F. He is snug as a bug in his mulch in his new house with the oil filled radiator keeping it warm. His heat mat is in the mail. I used the reptile forest floor mulch but am looking for some more cheaper...mulch that can be added to this. I'm also going to order a thermometer to monitor the temperature inside the house. First I had it too warm then adjusted it felt too cold and last night got it to where it seemed ok. I still have to add his light as its pretty dark in there and for days he doesn't want to come outside. I have a shower curtain, never used lying about and plan on using that on the door so it can hold some heat in while giving him access to the outdoors. (I'll cut strips in it as I can't find any of the flooring type. I did see on line they sell strips the are used on commercial refrigerators but man they come in big rolls and are very expensive. But I think they would be ideal. Maybe I'll buy a lottery ticket and see? lol Yes Tom it is a journey . This box is about 4 ft high enough I can get in and clean and make heat adjustments and not enough not to break my old back climbing in it. My back and sciatic nerve is out of whack today so its a rest day. My recommendation is to go with your 2 ft box with hinged roof, too late for me but good for others.


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## Hai

@Tom did you seal all the edges? If you did what kind did you use


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## Tom

Donutsgranny said:


> Seems I finished just in time as temperature this morning was 51 degree F. He is snug as a bug in his mulch in his new house with the oil filled radiator keeping it warm. His heat mat is in the mail. I used the reptile forest floor mulch but am looking for some more cheaper...mulch that can be added to this. I'm also going to order a thermometer to monitor the temperature inside the house. First I had it too warm then adjusted it felt too cold and last night got it to where it seemed ok. I still have to add his light as its pretty dark in there and for days he doesn't want to come outside. I have a shower curtain, never used lying about and plan on using that on the door so it can hold some heat in while giving him access to the outdoors. (I'll cut strips in it as I can't find any of the flooring type. I did see on line they sell strips the are used on commercial refrigerators but man they come in big rolls and are very expensive. But I think they would be ideal. Maybe I'll buy a lottery ticket and see? lol Yes Tom it is a journey . This box is about 4 ft high enough I can get in and clean and make heat adjustments and not enough not to break my old back climbing in it. My back and sciatic nerve is out of whack today so its a rest day. My recommendation is to go with your 2 ft box with hinged roof, too late for me but good for others.


You can't use bedding with a heat mat on the floor. Its not safe.

Don't go by how it "feels" in there. Mount a thermometer or two to the walls. I like to have a thermometer with a remote probe. I leave the probe in the box, and can monitor temps at any time from inside the comfort of my own "night box". 

You can buy the freezer door flaps by the foot, or in smaller sections. It is MUCH more effective than other materials. Overlap it at least an inch per flap. I can't find a link for anything less than a 100 foot roll anymore. I bought a 50 foot roll recently and I can sell you some of mine if you want.


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## EllieMay

Tom said:


> You can't use bedding with a heat mat on the floor. Its not safe.
> 
> Don't go by how it "feels" in there. Mount a thermometer or two to the walls. I like to have a thermometer with a remote probe. I leave the probe in the box, and can monitor temps at any time from inside the comfort of my own "night box".
> 
> You can buy the freezer door flaps by the foot, or in smaller sections. It is MUCH more effective than other materials. Overlap it at least an inch per flap. I can't find a link for anything less than a 100 foot roll anymore. I bought a 50 foot roll recently and I can sell you some of mine if you want.


I was able to find it on eBay in 8’ rolls.


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## Tom

Hai said:


> @Tom did you seal all the edges? If you did what kind did you use


I use GE silicone 1. I seal all the seams and corners as I build. I use 5 or 6 tubes on a 4x8 foot box.

Paint won't stick to the silicone. @Markw84 introduced me to this sealant recently, and I like it too:


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## Donutsgranny

Tom, Yes I understand, I planned on a thermometer, but I had just finished and hadn't ordered yet. I have this on order *Moat S2 Wireless Temperature & Humidity Bluetooth Smart Sensor (iPhone/Android) -
His heat mat is on one side of the house and the mulch is on the opposite side, some mornings I find him on the mat and other times in the mulch. I check it each day to be sure mulch doesn't get moved on the mat side. I hope that is good. Yes I am also intending to hang the freezer door flaps. I'm looking around and thanks for the offer I may have to take you up on it if I can't find on my own.*


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## Hai

@Tom you don't have a problem with you wood warping in the summer? All mine seem to start warping in the summer.


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## Tom

Hai said:


> @Tom you don't have a problem with you wood warping in the summer? All mine seem to start warping in the summer.


No. With the double layers of ply that are sealed and painted outside, along with the 2x4 frame, I get no warping at all.


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## Hai

Tom said:


> No. With the double layers of ply that are sealed and painted outside, along with the 2x4 frame, I get no warping at all.


 What did you use to seal and paint it?


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## Tom

Hai said:


> What did you use to seal and paint it?


See post number 63 above.

For paint on the exterior, I use Killz 2 primer and Behr exterior from Home Depot. I don't do anything to the inside. I leave the inside bare untreated plywood.


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## Hai

Oh I thought you meant like a waterproofing seal lol not the other stuff. It's crazy how expensive wood is right now. About doubled in price


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## Tom

Hai said:


> Oh I thought you meant like a waterproofing seal lol not the other stuff. It's crazy how expensive wood is right now. About doubled in price


Yes. I've noticed that too. I used to pay .78 cents for a 2x4. Now they are suddenly 3.98 each. Its crazy.


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## Hai

Tom said:


> Yes. I've noticed that too. I used to pay .78 cents for a 2x4. Now they are suddenly 3.98 each. Its crazy.


For all the wood and insulation cost came close to 200$. 

Do you still happen to have anymore of that freezer door liner stuff that you can sell


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## Hai

Tom said:


> Yes. I've noticed that too. I used to pay .78 cents for a 2x4. Now they are suddenly 3.98 each. Its crazy.


What size weather stripping do you recommend


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## Tom

Hai said:


> What size weather stripping do you recommend


I get the silicone based stuff. It comes in 10' rolls. I think its about 5/8s.


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## Hai

Tom said:


> I get the silicone based stuff. It comes in 10' rolls. I think its about 5/8s.


I bought this vinyl for the front doors. I think they will work like the freezer vinyl.. I hope



https://www.lowes.com/pd/Tenex-27-in-W-Cut-to-Length-Clear-Extruded-Vinyl-Utility-Runner-By-the-Foot/1000258915


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## NorCalAl

I’m building a 4x4 for my 20lb sulcata. I’m in NorCal, in the foothills, so I went with 4” insulation. One of the last posts mentioned not using OSB as a flooring material. As it stands, I have OSB on one side and 1/2” ply on the other (the walls aren’t attached to the floor yet). But I was planning on painting the bottom with Killz. Is there any reason not to? I don’t want to take it apart in two years to replace the floor.


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## Maro2Bear

NorCalAl said:


> I’m building a 4x4 for my 20lb sulcata. I’m in NorCal, in the foothills, so I went with 4” insulation. One of the last posts mentioned not using OSB as a flooring material. As it stands, I have OSB on one side and 1/2” ply on the other (the walls aren’t attached to the floor yet). But I was planning on painting the bottom with Killz. Is there any reason not to? I don’t want to take it apart in two years to replace the floor.



On my two night boxes, I added in a second layer of plywood On the floor. If this one rots...I can easily lift it out. So, think about a false bottom that is just a bit shy of your enclosure. Can even be two separate left over pieces. Just a thought - it works in my night boxes.


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## Tom

NorCalAl said:


> I’m building a 4x4 for my 20lb sulcata. I’m in NorCal, in the foothills, so I went with 4” insulation. One of the last posts mentioned not using OSB as a flooring material. As it stands, I have OSB on one side and 1/2” ply on the other (the walls aren’t attached to the floor yet). But I was planning on painting the bottom with Killz. Is there any reason not to? I don’t want to take it apart in two years to replace the floor.


I don't paint the inside with anything. I've had sulcata boxes with 11/32 ply going for a decade and not had to replace a floor yet.

My big SA leopard girls poo and pee in the box every night and constantly make a poopy, muddy mess in there. After about 8 years of that, I simply stuck another piece of plywood over the affected area and screwed to to the floor. Problem solved. When that piece rots, I'll pull it up and replace it with another patch. I don't think Killz or paint would have slowed or stopped this process. My sulcatas are also messy, but nothing like these leopards.

I don't use OSB for any part of the box construction.


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## NorCalAl

I bought several sheets of 1/2” exterior ply and one of OSB. It was only after that I started the build that I came back here to look for housing ideas. Our ideas are remarkably similar. My niche for the heater will have reflective backing, but that’s about the only difference. Even with the OSB layer on the bottom (facing the ground), I figure he’ll outgrow this one before it dies itself, so I’m good. 
I bought a 400w oil heater for basic heat and I’ve got some good thermostats (and I’m using your idea for a container), so I’m confident for the winter. Only worry is the power company shutting off power to ‘keep us safe’ every week or so.


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## Tom

NorCalAl said:


> Only worry is the power company shutting off power to ‘keep us safe’ every week or so.


We have that problem here too. I got a gennie to solve that one. Now I've heard that they are citing people for emissions for running a gennie. Going from bad to worse in this state, I tell ya...


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## NorCalAl

That’s crazy. We’ve not had that but it wouldn’t surprise me. I live in Paradise and I’m one of the ‘lucky’ who came out with a house. I’m looking to move to Idaho next year.
I go to sleep every night to the sound of gennies running because the folks have no power. I don’t know what the future holds or what is coming, but I know I don’t wanna be here when it comes.


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## NorCal tortoise guy

Tom said:


> We have that problem here too. I got a gennie to solve that one. Now I've heard that they are citing people for emissions for running a gennie. Going from bad to worse in this state, I tell ya...


I got a generator to solve that problem as well. I opted for one that can run on propane mostly because propane will be much easier to store a lot of Incase if extended problems. But I guess a side benefit will Be if it gets that crazy here I can tell them to bug off its low emissions haha


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## Tolis

Tom I messed up, 11/32 plywood is almost 9mm thick and I bought the one thats only 4mm thick. It's all cut up cannot and be returned. Can I still make it work with 4mm thickness?


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## Tom

Tortoiseforumaccount said:


> Tom I messed up, 11/32 plywood is almost 9mm thick and I bought the one thats only 4mm thick. It's all cut up cannot and be returned. Can I still make it work with 4mm thickness?


I've never tried. I don't think it will be strong enough. The insulation will probably do the work okay, but I'm not sure how well the whole thing will hold up.


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## Tolis

Tom said:


> I've never tried. I don't think it will be strong enough. The insulation will probably do the work okay, but I'm not sure how well the whole thing will hold up.


I will take one for the forum and do the experiment see how long it will last. I cannot afford otherwise.. structurally the frame should hold up, if the thin plywood gets punctured and starts rotting away I will replace it piece by piece.


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## Zoeclare

Tortoiseforumaccount said:


> I will take one for the forum and do the experiment see how long it will last. I cannot afford otherwise.. structurally the frame should hold up, if the thin plywood gets punctured and starts rotting away I will replace it piece by piece.


"Take one for the forum", love it!


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## NorCalAl

Hey folks, we finally got ours finished (at least functionally, still needs paint and some other cosmetics). The heater we’re using until next week has a thermostat - sorta. A dial without numbers. We have a thermometer and a cam to watch him and the temp, but I’m not certain what temps we should be running. Currently it’s about 78 near the heater and mid 60’s near the door. Inside floor space is 40.5” square.


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## Tolis

Tom can you help a bit with the door? Cant figure how you make yours....


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## Tolis

I could not figure out how your doors can become ramps without creating a 2 inch height difference between the top of the ramp and the inside of the hide box. So I made mine open on 90 degree angle and I will create a smooth ledge using tiles around the door where it opens so the tort can climb easily. I also added an inner layer of wood around the inside of the door to solve my insulation problem


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## Tom

NorCalAl said:


> Hey folks, we finally got ours finished (at least functionally, still needs paint and some other cosmetics). The heater we’re using until next week has a thermostat - sorta. A dial without numbers. We have a thermometer and a cam to watch him and the temp, but I’m not certain what temps we should be running. Currently it’s about 78 near the heater and mid 60’s near the door. Inside floor space is 40.5” square.


What species? For tropical species, like sulcatas, it should be 80ish in spring and fall when we have warm sunny days. When the weather turns cold for winter, I bump it up to 86. In summer, when every day ir near 100 here, I set it down to 70 to let it cool over night and not get so hot the next day.

The thermostat on the heaters will allow 15-20 degree swings in my experience. This is way too much.

Do you have clear vinyl door flaps? This helps hold in the heat very well when the door is open.


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## NorCalAl

Yes, sulcata. The winters in the foothills here run the gamut from 80’s in the day to 20’s or teens at night. I have a Reptistat which will be in his box tonight, so I won’t rely on the heater to regulate temps. We kept it about 70’s last night near the heater while it was mid 30’s outside. My box is similar to your plans, as I’ve mentioned before: all walls and the floor and top are insulated. We used 1/2” ply and shredded blue jean insulation (4”). I used a dogloo-type flap for the door. Heat is a 400w oil heater. 
Last night was the first night he used it. We mounted a camera to watch him and temps.


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## Tom

NorCalAl said:


> I have a Reptistat which will be in his box tonight, so I won’t rely on the heater to regulate temps.


These are not reliable. Get something better.



NorCalAl said:


> We kept it about 70’s last night near the heater while it was mid 30’s outside. My box is similar to your plans, as I’ve mentioned before: all walls and the floor and top are insulated. We used 1/2” ply and shredded blue jean insulation (4”). I used a dogloo-type flap for the door. Heat is a 400w oil heater.
> Last night was the first night he used it. We mounted a camera to watch him and temps.



Your are in uncharted territory there. Watch the temps closely. I see several potential problems:


Temps shouldn't be different near the heater compared to the rest of the box. It needs to be warm in the coldest corner farthest away fro the heater. I suggest no lower than 86 during colder weather like what we are having right now.
I'm not familiar with shredded blue jean insulation or how well it works compared to what I use. Watch your thermometer closely. Your tortoises life depends on it.
Not sure that a 400 watt heater will do it when temps are in the teens. Again, your thermometer will answer this question.
Dogloo door flap should be fine during the day when the door is open, but you also have an insulated door that you close at night, right? If not, you need one, and this might explain the problem in my first bullet point above.
Not trying to be a pain, but I don't want your tortoise to get sick from cold temps, and I've been down this road before.


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## NorCalAl

You’re not being a pain! I value the information, which is why I’m asking here. 
The denim insulation offers about the same r-value as cellulose or foam. Only thing that’s better is the spray in type. So r3.8 per inch x 4 = ~r15.5. Close to code for here.
The height inside is 18”, so I’m not heating a huge space. I thought it best to provide a gradient, but I can accept that’s incorrect. We have some of the foil-backed 1” foam insulation left over from the last house, so I will add two layers of that the bottom of the roof, inside the enclosure. It’ll drop the ceiling height a bit but add about r9 to the top. 
I’d not built an insulated door, but I certainly can.


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## NorCalAl

Incredibly, it snowed here today. Didn’t stick but it still snowed. Tonight’s lows are projected in the 20’s. Right now, running around 80 near the door opening and nearly 85 at the heater with the dial set at 50%.
Found my ZooMed thermostat, so I’ll be asking that tomorrow, along with the painting and trim work.
Thanks very much for the pointers.


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## NorCalAl

I added a second layer of freezer door flaps positioned about 3” offset from the first set. Without touching another thing, it allowed the box to remain 4 degrees warmer. Last night dipped below freezing for a while and his box stayed nice and toasty. Now if I could just convince him to go through the flaps without assistance!


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## Tolis

Have you ever taken temperature reading from both the top and the bottom of the box? I am getting 4 degrees celsius difference and Im not sure if it is normal since the hot air goes up or I have insulation problems. I keep the thermostat sensor near the floor since that's where the tort is


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## NorCalAl

Just to see, we’ve been running three: top, bottom and far wall. Since we added the Inkbird thermostat, temps are remarkably steady. Biggest difference in temps between three has been 3 degrees Fahrenheit.


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## Tom

Tolis said:


> Have you ever taken temperature reading from both the top and the bottom of the box? I am getting 4 degrees celsius difference and Im not sure if it is normal since the hot air goes up or I have insulation problems. I keep the thermostat sensor near the floor since that's where the tort is


I have. I don't get more than a degree or two in my 20" tall boxes.


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## Chuck_Roberts

Thanks for this post! I just finished construction on a 4' x 8' box as Tom detailed, and ordered freezer door flap material. I will have enough to make inner & outer freezer door flaps, and wondered if I still need to make a solid insulated door? I hoped to allow un-restricted access for them but haven't come up with a good solution in case they went half way out, then changed their mind.

I built mine with the 2x4's on end (2 layers of 1.5" foam insulation sheets sandwiched between 11/23 plywood on all sides). I live in the Phoenix area with a couple of medium sized Sulcata tortoises and the box is near a Ficus tree so it will have some shade in the Summer. 

I ordered a 700 watt oil heater, and a small fan, but wondered about what kind of thermostat I should order? I hear on this post that some are not accurate enough. 

Finally, each dug a ground cave this Summer. I was wondering if I should fill these in, or allow access to the cave, and shelter I built? Thanks for the advice!


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## Tolis

Chuck_Roberts said:


> Thanks for this post! I just finished construction on a 4' x 8' box as Tom detailed, and ordered freezer door flap material. I will have enough to make inner & outer freezer door flaps, and wondered if I still need to make a solid insulated door? I hoped to allow un-restricted access for them but haven't come up with a good solution in case they went half way out, then changed their mind.
> 
> I built mine with the 2x4's on end (2 layers of 1.5" foam insulation sheets sandwiched between 11/23 plywood on all sides). I live in the Phoenix area with a couple of medium sized Sulcata tortoises and the box is near a Ficus tree so it will have some shade in the Summer.
> 
> I ordered a 700 watt oil heater, and a small fan, but wondered about what kind of thermostat I should order? I hear on this post that some are not accurate enough.
> 
> Finally, each dug a ground cave this Summer. I was wondering if I should fill these in, or allow access to the cave, and shelter I built? Thanks for the advice!


You need the solid doors so you can lock them in at nights to ensure they wont exit and suicide and to prevent heat loss.

I like my inkbird itc-308 thermostat because it will send an alert on my phone if something is not working properly.

If they are in their cave while raining the cave could collapse and they drown. The box should satisfy their needs and they wont be digging again


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## Tom

Chuck_Roberts said:


> Thanks for this post! I just finished construction on a 4' x 8' box as Tom detailed, and ordered freezer door flap material. I will have enough to make inner & outer freezer door flaps, and wondered if I still need to make a solid insulated door? I hoped to allow un-restricted access for them but haven't come up with a good solution in case they went half way out, then changed their mind.
> 
> I built mine with the 2x4's on end (2 layers of 1.5" foam insulation sheets sandwiched between 11/23 plywood on all sides). I live in the Phoenix area with a couple of medium sized Sulcata tortoises and the box is near a Ficus tree so it will have some shade in the Summer.
> 
> I ordered a 700 watt oil heater, and a small fan, but wondered about what kind of thermostat I should order? I hear on this post that some are not accurate enough.
> 
> Finally, each dug a ground cave this Summer. I was wondering if I should fill these in, or allow access to the cave, and shelter I built? Thanks for the advice!


I think Tolis answered well, but I'll answer in my own words just to add another voice.

One set of flaps is enough, and yes, you need doors. You don't want them coming out for one reason or another on one of those rare 30 degree nights you get there. They will often come out in a cold rain too. The water attracts them out into the dark night, and they just don't realize its too cold. The door also keeps rats and other predators out at night when they are sleeping, while keeping your heat in.

Many thermostats work. I use several types. Make sure its rated for at least 1000 watts. Most of them are.

Burrows are great and arguably necessary for summer time. Its the only way for them to escape the terrible heat at the surface. But you need to close off the burrow in fall and make them sleep in their 80-85 degree heated night boxes all winter until the warm/hot spring temps return. Mine live in burrows from late June to late October usually, but I watch those 10 day forecasts and adjust as needed.


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## Chuck_Roberts

Thanks for the feedback! I ordered the Inkbird ITC-308 WiFi Thermostat and will get to making the insulated door. I still have a lot to learn. I always thought it was normal for them to hibernate through the winter. I noticed that they aren't eating as much now either. With the shelter heat set to 80-85, will they continue to eat as normal, or eat less through the Arizona "Winter"?


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## Tolis

Chuck_Roberts said:


> Thanks for the feedback! I ordered the Inkbird ITC-308 WiFi Thermostat and will get to making the insulated door. I still have a lot to learn. I always thought it was normal for them to hibernate through the winter. I noticed that they aren't eating as much now either. With the shelter heat set to 80-85, will they continue to eat as normal, or eat less through the Arizona "Winter"?


The lower the temps, the lower their metabolism, the less they move and eat. Sulcatas do not hibernate, they need temps always above 80F or they will develop health issues.


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## Tom

Chuck_Roberts said:


> Thanks for the feedback! I ordered the Inkbird ITC-308 WiFi Thermostat and will get to making the insulated door. I still have a lot to learn. I always thought it was normal for them to hibernate through the winter. I noticed that they aren't eating as much now either. With the shelter heat set to 80-85, will they continue to eat as normal, or eat less through the Arizona "Winter"?


Sulcatas come from tropical Africa. If you look at geological data from the region, underground temps, where the sulcatas live, never drop below 80, and don't rise above 85. Can they survive temps outside of this range? Yes. But its not good for them. Cold temps also kill some of the gut flora and fauna, which is not good either. Many tortoises die when allowed to spend the winter outside in a burrow in AZ or here in CA. Some survive some of the time, but its not right. Think of the conditions that a human could "survive" vs. what conditions are "good" for a human. Same thing for tortoises. Do you want survivable (maybe) conditions, or do you want to provide optimal conditions for your tortoises health and well being?

I unplug my boxes during the hot summer months. I run the boxes at 80 when we have warm sunny days in spring and fall. I run the boxes at 86 in winter when we have cold overcast days and rain some of the time. They have to be able to warm up every day. Most days in our climates, they can warm up in the sun. On days when they can't, we need to provide them with artificially generated warmth.


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## Tolis

Tom said:


> Sulcatas come from tropical Africa. If you look at geological data from the region, underground temps, where the sulcatas live, never drop below 80, and don't rise above 85. Can they survive temps outside of this range? Yes. But its not good for them. Cold temps also kill some of the gut flora and fauna, which is not good either. Many tortoises die when allowed to spend the winter outside in a burrow in AZ or here in CA. Some survive some of the time, but its not right. Think of the conditions that a human could "survive" vs. what conditions are "good" for a human. Same thing for tortoises. Do you want survivable (maybe) conditions, or do you want to provide optimal conditions for your tortoises health and well being?
> 
> I unplug my boxes during the hot summer months. I run the boxes at 80 when we have warm sunny days in spring and fall. I run the boxes at 86 in winter when we have cold overcast days and rain some of the time. They have to be able to warm up every day. Most days in our climates, they can warm up in the sun. On days when they can't, we need to provide them with artificially generated warmth.


Why run them at 86F and not 80F which is the minimum they feel comfortable at? Won't that just make them active and frustrated trying to escape the box? Do you keep all your species boxes at the same temp 86F?


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## Tom

Tolis said:


> Why run them at 86F and not 80F which is the minimum they feel comfortable at? Won't that just make them active and frustrated trying to escape the box? Do you keep all your species boxes at the same temp 86F?


Because on a cold winter day, they have no other way to warm up. I think 80 all day and all night is too cool. 85 is good enough for them to function and digest their food. 86 gives me just a little extra insurance. They are free to come out and walk around or graze on a cold day too, so 86 in the box allows them to warm up nicely after a cold winter walk about. They don't get frustrated and try to escape the box, because the door is open all day and they can come and go as they please. Some days they don't even come out of the box when its cold and overcast. In the wild, the ground temps fluctuate between 80-85 all year, but remember that almost every day has ambient temps near 100 for morning or evening basking when they want to warm up above 80-85. We don't have that in North America in winter. Even southern AZ has cold winter spells with night temps in the 30s and daytime temps only reaching the 50s.

I've been experimenting with temps for years, and this is what I've found to work the best. Other people who've tried it this way also prefer the results.

In some of my boxes, like the stars, I've installed basking lamps for winter. I leave the thermostat set at 80 to maintain ambient day and night, but the basking bulbs on timers heat the enclosure into the high 80s or low 90s during the day. This simulates what they grew up in when they were little and housed indoors, and it works great. It gives them and area to bask and get their body temps up, even when its cold and overcast outside in winter.


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## Chuck_Roberts

Excellent feedback! Our tortoises thank you!


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## Tolis

Just only after 1 month of use, there is mold accumulating in one of the box's corners. I guess I am doing a good job keeping the humidity high. It troubles me because when the tort goes to bed he usually parks in that corner right in front of the mold. I did a quick search and found 3 ''natural'' remedies to combat the mold by mixing them in a spraying bottle.

1) White distilled vinegar + soda
2) 3% Hydrogen peroxide + Water
3) Borax + water

Which of the 3 do you think is less likely to harm the tort?


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## Hyndesyte

Tom said:


> Sulcatas come from tropical Africa. If you look at geological data from the region, underground temps, where the sulcatas live, never drop below 80, and don't rise above 85. Can they survive temps outside of this range? Yes. But its not good for them. Cold temps also kill some of the gut flora and fauna, which is not good either. Many tortoises die when allowed to spend the winter outside in a burrow in AZ or here in CA. Some survive some of the time, but its not right. Think of the conditions that a human could "survive" vs. what conditions are "good" for a human. Same thing for tortoises. Do you want survivable (maybe) conditions, or do you want to provide optimal conditions for your tortoises health and well being?
> 
> I unplug my boxes during the hot summer months. I run the boxes at 80 when we have warm sunny days in spring and fall. I run the boxes at 86 in winter when we have cold overcast days and rain some of the time. They have to be able to warm up every day. Most days in our climates, they can warm up in the sun. On days when they can't, we need to provide them with artificially generated warmth.


Hi Tom, I’ve had my sulcatas for 2 yrs, never expected them to grow as fast as they did. They’ve grown exponentially in the past 6-8 mo’s. One now weighs ~32lb and the other is ~21lb. I built an enclosure last fall. It is ~3’x4’x3’ high,with a 2x2 “patio/entry” with a closed door. Every wall is double ply with foam insulation. I currently have a double lamp- UV/heat with a standard shape 75W heat bulb and the UV lightbulb you mentioned in an older post that is not good. I’m keeping the heat between 80-90, but am concerned about the height of the lamp. I’m not sure how to use a heat gun to measure temps at various heights. I am in the process of adding on to my tortoise “Winchester” house to get me through this colder seaso. I am in the San Fernando Valley, CA. In the addition I am adding 3’x3’ and try to figure out the proper height and type of heat lamp to use. I don’t have a picture at the moment. Would appreciate any advice. Thank you


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## Tom

Hyndesyte said:


> Hi Tom, I’ve had my sulcatas for 2 yrs, never expected them to grow as fast as they did. They’ve grown exponentially in the past 6-8 mo’s. One now weighs ~32lb and the other is ~21lb. I built an enclosure last fall. It is ~3’x4’x3’ high,with a 2x2 “patio/entry” with a closed door. Every wall is double ply with foam insulation. I currently have a double lamp- UV/heat with a standard shape 75W heat bulb and the UV lightbulb you mentioned in an older post that is not good. I’m keeping the heat between 80-90, but am concerned about the height of the lamp. I’m not sure how to use a heat gun to measure temps at various heights. I am in the process of adding on to my tortoise “Winchester” house to get me through this colder seaso. I am in the San Fernando Valley, CA. In the addition I am adding 3’x3’ and try to figure out the proper height and type of heat lamp to use. I don’t have a picture at the moment. Would appreciate any advice. Thank you


Yours is a perfect example of why they should never be housed in pairs. One is now more than 50% bigger than the other.

That house is too small for two of them, too tall inside, the door way is too large, and you don't need heat lamps and UV for tortoises that live outside.

My preferred method of measuring heat at a given height is to get a brick, a block, or box or something of the approximate height I am trying to measure at, and placing that directly under the heat lamp. I let it cook for an hour or more, then place my digital thermometer directly on top of it and let that cook directly under the lamp for an hour or more. This will give you an idea of the temps your tortoise's carapaces are being subjected too. You can skip this step entirely, because both of yours are already too large for heat lamps. There isn't a way to do it safely and effectively at their size with heat lamps.

The box that is the subject of this thread is exactly what you need. You can try to retro-fit your existing box, but you are going to be wasting a lot of electricity that way due to the previously mentioned design flaws.

Don't skip the caulking on the new box construction. That's an important step in keeping heat in and cold and ants out. Same with the weather stripping around the top, and door flaps for when the door is open. Each of these details, along with all the others is what makes this whole thing work. Change the dimensions, or skip some steps, and the box doesn't work as well.


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## SasquatchTortoise

Tom said:


> As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to show all the pics.
> 
> This box will house my two 16 inch 2010 South African Leopard tortoise males. They had to be separated for aggression years ago and they cannot live together. Their enclosures are side by side and share a common wall, so this box will straddle the dividing line. Each tortoise will have its own 4x4' section with a removable divider in the middle, but I only have to run one heater.
> 
> I start by screwing the 2x4s that make the lip that keeps rain out to the top. The top is a full, uncut, 4x8' sheet of thin plywood. I started using thinner plywood because the 1.5" rigid foam insulation inside keeps the heat in and thinner plywood weighs less. Accordingly, since I have to lift the top open to clean, I want things as light as possible, so I make the frame inside the lid out of 2x2s to save weight on the lid. I use 2x3s and 2x4 everywhere else.
> 
> Here is the floor. I make it so that it fits inside the lid. I end up having to cut some off of the full 4x8' sheet of plywood to allow room for the top to fit over the bottom and keep out the rain. You can see that I have framed around the outside and middle. The insulation fits inside this frame and the floor rests on top of this framing so the weight of the tortoises doesn't squash my foam insulation. You can see the completed lid in the background. Also notice the cut outs for the doors.
> View attachment 150094
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the insulation cut to size:
> View attachment 150095
> 
> 
> 
> And dropped into place:
> View attachment 150096
> 
> 
> 
> I've installed the floor on top of the insulation and frame here. I seal all the way around the frame and then again between the floor and frame with plain silicone sealant:
> View attachment 150097
> 
> 
> 
> Next I attach the sides and back and begin framing:
> View attachment 150098
> 
> 
> 
> Then I put the front on.
> View attachment 150099
> 
> 
> 
> Inside view of the front, not all framed yet. I will frame the inside, cut and fit insulation, run a bead of silicone all the way around, and then put the inside plywood wall on.:
> View attachment 150100
> 
> 
> 
> Too many pics for one post, so on to the next...


Hey @Tom I'm shortly going to build a hide for my tort in our greenhouse. What is a material you would recommend that doesn't rot when exposed to moist earth? I was thinking a plastic, but I was afraid it couldn't handle a CHE. Anyways what do you think I should use?


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## Tom

SasquatchTortoise said:


> Hey @Tom I'm shortly going to build a hide for my tort in our greenhouse. What is a material you would recommend that doesn't rot when exposed to moist earth? I was thinking a plastic, but I was afraid it couldn't handle a CHE. Anyways what do you think I should use?


For a sulcata? I use plywood. I prime and paint the outside and leave the inside untreated.

CHEs shouldn't be used over larger tortoises. Fine for Testudo, but not anything larger than that.


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## SasquatchTortoise

Tom said:


> For a sulcata? I use plywood. I prime and paint the outside and leave the inside untreated.
> 
> CHEs shouldn't be used over larger tortoises. Fine for Testudo, but not anything larger than that.


Ok. How do you recommend I heat it? Or, where do you get a tiny radiator? Can I still use the CHEs for overall warmth in the greenhouse? She is not too big right now either


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## Tom

SasquatchTortoise said:


> Ok. How do you recommend I heat it? Or, where do you get a tiny radiator? Can I still use the CHEs for overall warmth in the greenhouse? She is not too big right now either


You can get the mini oil filled radiators from many places. I get them from Walmart most of the time. You could also use a Kane heat mat and an overhead RHP combo if the box is small enough.

As long as the CHE is not throwing heat directly onto the carapace at fairly close range, say closer than 24 inches, they should be safe to use. Your thermometer will tell you if they are effective or not.


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## SasquatchTortoise

Tom said:


> You can get the mini oil filled radiators from many places. I get them from Walmart most of the time. You could also use a Kane heat mat and an overhead RHP combo if the box is small enough.
> 
> As long as the CHE is not throwing heat directly onto the carapace at fairly close range, say closer than 24 inches, they should be safe to use. Your thermometer will tell you if they are effective or not.


What does RHP stand for? I do not know if I am familiar with that


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## Tom

SasquatchTortoise said:


> What does RHP stand for? I do not know if I am familiar with that


Radiant heat panel. You can see it here:





Single Tortoise Night Box


I like my larger tortoises to live outside full time. My climate permits this year round with a little help. For people who live where it snows all winter, this type of box is still good for warmer weather, getting them out earlier in Spring, and keeping them out a bit later into fall. You'll...




tortoiseforum.org





This box is 4x4. The RHP and Kane mat are able to maintain 80 degrees when outside night temps are in the high 20s.


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## SatchelMonster

Thanks for this post Tom! I want to make sure I understand all of the tech inside a winter house. 

- Heat source, like an oil heater, blocked off so the tort doesn't mess with it. 
- Small fan, optional?, to keep warm air circulating. 
- Remote probe, to monitor temp and send alerts to your phone. Looks like the inkbird also connects to the heater and will turn it on and off as needed? 

Is there anything else tech-wise that would be good to add in?


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## AgataP

Amazon is selling heating panels that you can mount on a walls they design for chickens. 
I have mine connected to the thermostat. I am planning on removing che completely soon. 
I am still measuring temperatures and making sure this is something that will be 100% functional. So far so good. 
I plan on using them in the future as well.


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## Tom

AgataP said:


> Amazon is selling heating panels that you can mount on a walls they design for chickens.
> I have mine connected to the thermostat. I am planning on removing che completely soon.
> I am still measuring temperatures and making sure this is something that will be 100% functional. So far so good.
> I plan on using them in the future as well.
> View attachment 334647


I wouldn't use them on the side. Best to have them over head and out of tortoise reach.


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## AgataP

Tom said:


> I wouldn't use them on the side. Best to have them over head and out of tortoise reach.


@Tom that’s the plan for the future. 
Herbie can’t reach that one yet. Also I will put “cages” around them. This is a test run one. I know in next month I will be mounting it above. 
probably will cut out holes in the plywood and install them on top.


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## Donutsgranny

I haven't been here in awhile. Our tort house worked fair last winter but we will make some adjustments. When we had a few nights of 20-30 degrees (which isn't often) we could not keep the tortoise house with an overall temp of 80+. So we brought him inside those few nights. *note we made the house to big. (thought is would be more convenient for cleaning out that perhaps we could stand, but we still can't anyway) I will take pictures later today or tomorrow of how it looks and for recommendations. We came across some vinyl siding which we are adding to the outside to well I guess look nice. We have added so much wood since beginning this project you can't move the house anymore. I'd need a forklift. LOL (no joke). I will write more later. Overall I'm pleased but if I ever build a new one, I'll follow the measurements Tom provided.


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## tag78

Tolis said:


> The lower the temps, the lower their metabolism, the less they move and eat. Sulcatas do not hibernate, they need temps always above 80F or they will develop health issues.


Please correct me if this is wrong but I have read a few different articles saying that sulcatas can tolerate temps slightly below 50 F.


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## Tom

tag78 said:


> Please correct me if this is wrong but I have read a few different articles saying that sulcatas can tolerate temps slightly below 50 F.


I cannot correct you. I'm certain that you've read articles that said that. While they can tolerate and sometimes survive temperatures that cold, and even colder, it is NOT good for them, and certainly not optimal. Ground temps where they come from hover around 80-85 all year. This is what their quarters should be kept at year round. I'm not interested in providing conditions for my animals that are barely survivable. I'm interested in providing conditions that are optimal. 50 is likely to make them sick and it will certainly damage the gut flora and fauna, while drastically reducing appetite and activity. None of that is beneficial in any way for a sulcata. These are tropical animals. A cold winter day in their part of the world might only get up to 88, but most days are near 100.

In short, like most of what is written for care of this species, what you read was wrong.


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## tag78

Tom said:


> I cannot correct you. I'm certain that you've read articles that said that. While they can tolerate and sometimes survive temperatures that cold, and even colder, it is NOT good for them, and certainly not optimal. Ground temps where they come from hover around 80-85 all year. This is what their quarters should be kept at year round. I'm not interested in providing conditions for my animals that are barely survivable. I'm interested in providing conditions that are optimal. 50 is likely to make them sick and it will certainly damage the gut flora and fauna, while drastically reducing appetite and activity. None of that is beneficial in any way for a sulcata. These are tropical animals. A cold winter day in their part of the world might only get up to 88, but most days are near 100.
> 
> In short, like most of what is written for care of this species, what you read was wrong.


That is why I go for more than one opinion - thanks.


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## A.Vazquez

Excellent plans, thank you for the detailed information.


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## Skunkworks

Nice Job Tom. I learned a few pointers from this Post .


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## tortlover73

Tom said:


> I make these little portals over my doors to keep rain ou on the rare occasion that we get rain here:
> View attachment 150101
> 
> 
> View attachment 150102
> 
> View attachment 150104
> 
> 
> Here is the inside front and side all framed up and with insulation in place. Next I run a silicone bead put the walls up and screw them to the framing all around:
> View attachment 150105
> 
> 
> 
> Here the sides, front and back are all sealed and buttoned up. I've added the little walled area that will keep the torts from touching the heater and you can see the removable divider in the middle. Next summer I plan to mix the males and females. When that finally happens I will probably remove the divider and let them all move back and forth between the pens as needed. This will give me the option of separating the male if he becomes too aggressive, and I can also close one door, remove the divider and make them all live on one side while I grow stuff to graze on one side or the other. Options. This box gives me lots of options.
> View attachment 150106
> 
> 
> 
> I hate power cords sitting out exposed. They get weathered, tripped on, and I don't want the torts to have access to them.
> View attachment 150107
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what I came up with for this situation. I ran the cord through this pipe into the ground and buried the remainder.
> View attachment 150108
> 
> 
> 
> Same thing on the side where it plugs in:
> View attachment 150109
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is all done and plugged in. No cord!  :
> View attachment 150110
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One more post and we will be done...


Hey @Tom i finally got my house for Koopa outside and I’m getting heat installed. Ordered a mini oil radiator heater. Have my shelf ready to install. Have the box to put the thermostat in as well. My question is which do you plug into the thermostat? The heater , fan and rhp? And then the kane pig blanket on a separate plug? Just worried about overloading the zilla 1000 thermostat.


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## Tom

tortlover73 said:


> Hey @Tom i finally got my house for Koopa outside and I’m getting heat installed. Ordered a mini oil radiator heater. Have my shelf ready to install. Have the box to put the thermostat in as well. My question is which do you plug into the thermostat? The heater , fan and rhp? And then the kane pig blanket on a separate plug? Just worried about overloading the zilla 1000 thermostat.


What you have there is an either/or type situation, not both. Either the radiant mini oil heater/fan combo, OR the Kane mat/RHP combo. If you want to run all of it anyway, you'll need a splitter of some sort since your thermostat won't have that many receptacles, and you should still be under the 1000 watt limit. Most mini heaters are 400-600 watts. The highest I've seen and used was 700 watts. The Kane mat should be 80 watts and the RHP 78 watts. The computer fan will use very little power.

If you do want to run all of it, I would do it on two separate thermostats for redundant safety. If one thermostat or heating element fails, the other will literally save your tortoise's life.


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## tortlover73

Tom said:


> What you have there is an either/or type situation, not both. Either the radiant mini oil heater/fan combo, OR the Kane mat/RHP combo. If you want to run all of it anyway, you'll need a splitter of some sort since your thermostat won't have that many receptacles, and you should still be under the 1000 watt limit. Most mini heaters are 400-600 watts. The highest I've seen and used was 700 watts. The Kane mat should be 80 watts and the RHP 78 watts. The computer fan will use very little power.
> 
> If you do want to run all of it, I would do it on two separate thermostats for redundant safety. If one thermostat or heating element fails, the other will literally save your tortoise's life.


Thanks @Tom so far the rhp and Kane are doing great on their own and the box stays 80 overnight even when the temps are 50 outside. I’ll cross the bridge of colder temps when I get there. Got the oil filled radiator yesterday and a second reptile thermostat from Amazon so I have what I need. I’m going to add humidity too as Denver is only in the 20s. I’ve kept her from pyramiding by providing the humidity as you taught in your raising a hatching article. You’ve been instrumental for the great health of my Koopa and I’m so grateful.


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## tortlover73

Tom said:


> What you have there is an either/or type situation, not both. Either the radiant mini oil heater/fan combo, OR the Kane mat/RHP combo. If you want to run all of it anyway, you'll need a splitter of some sort since your thermostat won't have that many receptacles, and you should still be under the 1000 watt limit. Most mini heaters are 400-600 watts. The highest I've seen and used was 700 watts. The Kane mat should be 80 watts and the RHP 78 watts. The computer fan will use very little power.
> 
> If you do want to run all of it, I would do it on two separate thermostats for redundant safety. If one thermostat or heating element fails, the other will literally save your tortoise's life.





Tom said:


> What you have there is an either/or type situation, not both. Either the radiant mini oil heater/fan combo, OR the Kane mat/RHP combo. If you want to run all of it anyway, you'll need a splitter of some sort since your thermostat won't have that many receptacles, and you should still be under the 1000 watt limit. Most mini heaters are 400-600 watts. The highest I've seen and used was 700 watts. The Kane mat should be 80 watts and the RHP 78 watts. The computer fan will use very little power.
> 
> If you do want to run all of it, I would do it on two separate thermostats for redundant safety. If one thermostat or heating element fails, the other will literally save your tortoise's life.


I’m Also having problems finding the radiant heat panels. I seem to be able to find the big one or the small 40 one. Do you know where else I can look


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## Tom

tortlover73 said:


> I’m Also having problems finding the radiant heat panels. I seem to be able to find the big one or the small 40 one. Do you know where else I can look


@Kapidolo Farms 
@Markw84


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## Ergotaxon

Hi, do you use radiant heat panels in addition to an oil filled heater for these night boxes?


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## Tom

Ergotaxon said:


> Hi, do you use radiant heat panels in addition to an oil filled heater for these night boxes?


I use a Kane mat/RHP combo in the 4x4 boxes, and I use the mini radiant oil heaters in the 4x8 foot boxes.


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## Ergotaxon

Thanks!


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