# Tortoise and burrows.



## Anyfoot (Oct 7, 2015)

Hi again. 

In the wild certain species of Tortoise use burrows for their sleeping quarters. Some create there own and some adopt burrows from other animal species. Dont know if this counts for all species but redfoots will return to the same burrows for the night.


What happens to the urine and stool with in the burrows? 
Does the urine just soak away? 
Does the poop get eaten by themselves and bugs? 
Do they have an animal instinct not to do it in the sleeping quarters? 
Does the urine help keep humidity up within the burrows? 

Questions questions. 

Thank you.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 7, 2015)

The urine soaks into the ground and the feces breaks apart ending up looking like straw or hay, in other words, bedding. The moistened earth causes humidity in the burrow.

Some tortoises come out of the burrow to do their business, but most take care of it inside.


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## Anyfoot (Oct 7, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> The urine soaks into the ground and the feces breaks apart ending up looking like straw or hay, in other words, bedding. The moistened earth causes humidity in the burrow.
> 
> Some tortoises come out of the burrow to do their business, but most take care of it inside.


So the fact the tortoises are sat in the urine soaked floor and feces does not cause any health issues?


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## Tom (Oct 7, 2015)

I don't know the answer to any of these questions for RFs. I've never seen any keeper offer a burrow to a RF.

I can tell you that sulcatas, DTs and russians all poop and pee in their burrows and it does not harm. RFs on the other hand seem to be particularly prone to shell rot in damp or dirty conditions.


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## Anyfoot (Oct 7, 2015)

Tom said:


> I don't know the answer to any of these questions for RFs. I've never seen any keeper offer a burrow to a RF.
> 
> I can tell you that sulcatas, DTs and russians all poop and pee in their burrows and it does not harm. RFs on the other hand seem to be particularly prone to shell rot in damp or dirty conditions.


Thanks Tom. Yeah I keep hearing that reds are prone to shell rot.

Have you ever noticed a pattern with your sulcata burrows. Angle of entry, depth, south facing etc. Is there any common factors amongst your groups burrows.


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## SarahChelonoidis (Oct 7, 2015)

My elongated seems to enjoy occupying burrows I create (in the wild, they take up residence in burrows built by native mammals), but when he defecates in the burrow (which he does from time to time), he won't sleep there the following night or until I clean it out. I imagine for tortoises that aren't themselves borrowing and just opportunistic occupiers of burrows, soiling the space won't cause ill effects since they are only temporary residents. 

The species that spend prolonged time in burrows have very different diets (and thus is imagine feces and urine composition) than the forest tortoises I am most familiar with. I could believe this is why they don't experience the fungal issues that some tortoises do when occupying similarly soiled conditions (some species evolved to sit in their waste for periods of time, others did not). I've not come across any literature on this though. 

I don't think of footed tortoises as being particularly drawn to burrows though, so it may be a total non-issue here.


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## Anyfoot (Oct 7, 2015)

SarahChelonoidis said:


> My elongated seems to enjoy occupying burrows I create (in the wild, they take up residence in burrows built by native mammals), but when he defecates in the burrow (which he does from time to time), he won't sleep there the following night or until I clean it out. I imagine for tortoises that aren't themselves borrowing and just opportunistic occupiers of burrows, soiling the space won't cause ill effects since they are only temporary residents.
> 
> The species that spend prolonged time in burrows have very different diets (and thus is imagine feces and urine composition) than the forest tortoises I am most familiar with. I could believe this is why they don't experience the fungal issues that some tortoises do when occupying similarly soiled conditions (some species evolved to sit in their waste for periods of time, others did not). I've not come across any literature on this though.
> 
> I don't think of footed tortoises as being particularly drawn to burrows though, so it may be a total non-issue here.


Not a non-issue. Interesting, thank you. 
Reds do occupy burrows in the wild and in groups too. Maybe not them all, I would imagine a good dense bush or dense grassland is sufficient too. 
Thanks again.


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## SarahChelonoidis (Oct 7, 2015)

Do your redfoots dig down themselves or enter existing holes? I really thought they occupied more sheltered nooks than subterranean spaces, so it's really interesting to hear that they have nightly burrows.


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## Anyfoot (Oct 7, 2015)

SarahChelonoidis said:


> Do your redfoots dig down themselves or enter existing holes? I really thought they occupied more sheltered nooks than subterranean spaces, so it's really interesting to hear that they have nightly burrows.


No they don't dig burrows. In the wild they occupy other mammals burrows like armadillos for example. 
I'm in the process of building my new indoor enclosure, so just wanted to gather information about burrows. Mine are going to be more like caves though. I was worried about cleanliness over time. My caves will all have a drainage system, I will be able to squeeze in to clean and maintain the heat sources. I wasn't sure if I would have to install a rain/mist sytem to flush them out from time to time. All this said I was reading about how they get familiar with the area they live in in the wild and how studies have proved that the same torts return to the same burrows time and time again. As a side note, my reds do not poop in the hides. They come out and do it. 
You got me thinking now with the reds as omnivores sitting in their own poop. I would imagine herbivores poop is just full grasses and less likely to start up bacterial infections.


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## Tom (Oct 7, 2015)

Anyfoot said:


> Thanks Tom. Yeah I keep hearing that reds are prone to shell rot.
> 
> Have you ever noticed a pattern with your sulcata burrows. Angle of entry, depth, south facing etc. Is there any common factors amongst your groups burrows.



In my area they tend to dig toward the south and down at about 35-45 degrees. This leaves the burrow entrance facing North away from the sun. I've seen places where the terrain seems to dictate direction though. At Dave Friend's place there are burrows facing every which way in his giant sulcata pen. Same at Bob Blome's place in AZ.

All the burrows I've seen dig down a bit and then turn to the right. The burrow my adults are currently using is 22 feet long and curves to the right. Is there a math wiz here that wishes to calculate the depth based on length and angle?


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## Anyfoot (Oct 7, 2015)

Tom said:


> In my area they tend to dig toward the south and down at about 35-45 degrees. This leaves the burrow entrance facing North away from the sun. I've seen places where the terrain seems to dictate direction though. At Dave Friend's place there are burrows facing every which way in his giant sulcata pen. Same at Bob Blome's place in AZ.
> 
> All the burrows I've seen dig down a bit and then turn to the right. The burrow my adults are currently using is 22 feet long and curves to the right. Is there a math wiz here that wishes to calculate the depth based on length and angle?


Really, 22ft. Omg. Not got a scientific calculator on me. But 22ft at 45° is 15.5ft deep from ground level. Need a scientific calculator to work 35° out. Am I understanding this correctly. 22ft long at an angle of up to 45° down a slope.


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## Tom (Oct 7, 2015)

Anyfoot said:


> Really, 22ft. Omg. Not got a scientific calculator on me. But 22ft at 45° is 15.5ft deep from ground level. Need a scientific calculator to work 35° out. Am I understanding this correctly. 22ft long at an angle of up to 45° down a slope.



Correct.

Here are some pics:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sulcata-burrows.50846/


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## Anyfoot (Oct 7, 2015)

Tom said:


> Correct.
> 
> Here are some pics:
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sulcata-burrows.50846/


Jesus Tom. You could be in bed with one sleeping directly below you. Lol.


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## Tom (Oct 7, 2015)

Anyfoot said:


> Jesus Tom. You could be in bed with one sleeping directly below you. Lol.



Yep. Sulcatas are pretty awesome!


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## Big Charlie (Oct 13, 2015)

Tom said:


> In my area they tend to dig toward the south and down at about 35-45 degrees. This leaves the burrow entrance facing North away from the sun. I've seen places where the terrain seems to dictate direction though. At Dave Friend's place there are burrows facing every which way in his giant sulcata pen. Same at Bob Blome's place in AZ.
> 
> All the burrows I've seen dig down a bit and then turn to the right. The burrow my adults are currently using is 22 feet long and curves to the right. Is there a math wiz here that wishes to calculate the depth based on length and angle?


Charlie's (sulcata) burrow turned right too. I believe his burrow was about 5 feet deep. There was a spot right around the bend where it went extra deep and then it came back up and continued on. When we dug it up, the extra deep spot was full of poop, so it seemed like he was using it for a bathroom. I don't think he was sleeping in his poop. He doesn't have a bathroom spot when he is out; he poops everywhere!

He had at least one burrow earlier that faced the opposite direction. It was built in a corner of our fence in a spot that was almost always in the shade. I suspect it turned left, not right.


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## Anyfoot (Oct 13, 2015)

How do you guys go on with heavy rain fall?
Do the burrows flood?


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## ZEROPILOT (Oct 13, 2015)

It IS an issue when keeping multiple Redfoot since they sometimes all will decide to jam into just one night house/burrow. They emerge in the morning wet and covered in poo.
All of my sleeping quarters now have removable tops and the two drainage pipes I just lift and place someplace else. This allows me to clean the area.
It is true that in the two pens I'm currently using that only have one Redfoot in them, this is not an issue.


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## ZEROPILOT (Oct 13, 2015)

Anyfoot said:


> How do you guys go on with heavy rain fall?
> Do the burrows flood?


My burrows are all above ground, giving the feel of a real burrow.(Half drainage pipes)
The whole enclosure is also built up about to be slightly higher than the rest of the yard.
In the summer it rains here every stinking day, but I've never had any flood issues.


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## Big Charlie (Oct 13, 2015)

Anyfoot said:


> How do you guys go on with heavy rain fall?
> Do the burrows flood?


We don't have heavy rainfall. If it rains for any length of time, Charlie will come up onto the patio into his heated box. We don't get rain in the summer. Once we had a problem when the sprinkler got stuck on and his burrow got flooded. By the time we realized it and checked on Charlie, he was at the entrance to his burrow with just his head above water. He didn't need any help getting out.

Also one of his old burrows collapsed. I can't remember if he was inside at the time but if he was, he got out okay.


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## Tom (Oct 14, 2015)

Anyfoot said:


> How do you guys go on with heavy rain fall?
> Do the burrows flood?



Like Charlie said, this is Southern CA. We don't get heavy rainfall. I was in New Orleans in June and literally one 5 minute storm dumped more water than all the rainfall for an entire year back home. I've never seen water fall from the sky like it does in the South. I normally go from February to November or December with almost no rain at all. They say we will get dumped on this winter, but time will tell. Even in the winter when it does rain, its usually not too heavy and during that time of year, my burrows are all closed off and they sleep in their heated night boxes. I've never had a burrow flood because the burrows are covered during our rainy season and it doesn't rain during our non-rainy season.

Its funny (to me) because this makes and opposite feeding problem for me (people in the South West) vs. the rest of the country. In winter we get our rains and all the weeds and wild grasses sprout and I don't even feed my outdoor tortoises because they walk around grazing all day. Because temps are usually 70s-80s and most days are sunny, its an easy time of year for me here. Most people are frozen over and not a weed in sight during winter. In summer I have the opposite problem. No rain, super hot and dry, and all the vegetation dries up and dies. Most people have an easy time in summer. The warm temps and rainfall bring lots of good tortoise food. I have to scramble every day all summer long trying to find enough food. I use mulberry leaves, lawn clippings from my yard, grass hay, Mazuri and lots of cactus pads. I grow grape leaves, African hibiscus and a few plots of Tortoisesupply.com Testudo Seed Mix to get through summer, but its tough and time consuming. Winter is my easy time here, where most people are scrambling all winter long to find good food.

March:






Same area in Early June:


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## Anyfoot (Oct 14, 2015)

Tom said:


> Like Charlie said, this is Southern CA. We don't get heavy rainfall. I was in New Orleans in June and literally one 5 minute storm dumped more water than all the rainfall for an entire year back home. I've never seen water fall from the sky like it does in the South. I normally go from February to November or December with almost no rain at all. They say we will get dumped on this winter, but time will tell. Even in the winter when it does rain, its usually not too heavy and during that time of year, my burrows are all closed off and they sleep in their heated night boxes. I've never had a burrow flood because the burrows are covered during our rainy season and it doesn't rain during our non-rainy season.
> 
> Its funny (to me) because this makes and opposite feeding problem for me (people in the South West) vs. the rest of the country. In winter we get our rains and all the weeds and wild grasses sprout and I don't even feed my outdoor tortoises because they walk around grazing all day. Because temps are usually 70s-80s and most days are sunny, its an easy time of year for me here. Most people are frozen over and not a weed in sight during winter. In summer I have the opposite problem. No rain, super hot and dry, and all the vegetation dries up and dies. Most people have an easy time in summer. The warm temps and rainfall bring lots of good tortoise food. I have to scramble every day all summer long trying to find enough food. I use mulberry leaves, lawn clippings from my yard, grass hay, Mazuri and lots of cactus pads. I grow grape leaves, African hibiscus and a few plots of Tortoisesupply.com Testudo Seed Mix to get through summer, but its tough and time consuming. Winter is my easy time here, where most people are scrambling all winter long to find good food.
> 
> ...


Thanks Tom. I can't believe those 2 photos are the same area. Do you know Tom, the uk weather isn't as bad as everyone thinks, we don't get the far extremes as you guys. I've seen weeds year round here. It's green constantly. Summers are not too hot maybe 25°c on average (had 2 days at 36°c this year) that's extreme for us. In winter its usually 0°. Maybe to -5° on occasions. But not really for long. Nov to Feb is norm now days. Cold hard long winters have gone. Rainfall can be heavy at times. 
Anyway, have you got an irrigation system? 
Do you guys pay a set fee for water or are you on a water meter?


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## Tom (Oct 14, 2015)

Anyfoot said:


> Thanks Tom. I can't believe those 2 photos are the same area. Do you know Tom, the uk weather isn't as bad as everyone thinks, we don't get the far extremes as you guys. I've seen weeds year round here. It's green constantly. Summers are not too hot maybe 25°c on average (had 2 days at 36°c this year) that's extreme for us. In winter its usually 0°. Maybe to -5° on occasions. But not really for long. Nov to Feb is norm now days. Cold hard long winters have gone. Rainfall can be heavy at times.
> Anyway, have you got an irrigation system?
> Do you guys pay a set fee for water or are you on a water meter?



My ranch properties are on a well. I just have to pay for the electricity to pump it out of the ground.

My residential area property has a meter.

Interestingly, my weeds seem seasonal and are very tough to grow out of season. I have tried irrigation, but the mallow for example, just withers and dies as temps warm up, regardless of well irrigated soil. I get the same patterns every year. Mallow and grasses come up first. Then hawksbit and filarree hit their stride and I finish up the season with the ail mustard and garlic lasting the longest into late spring. At that point my plots are up and running again, my grapevine and mulberry tree are back in full swing and the cactus have all start growing new pads and fruits.

I find this seasonal cycle very interesting and enjoyable. Right now my mulberry and grape vines are dying off, my cactus are slowing down, but I will keep harvesting existing pads for a while, and we won't have rain or weeds for at least another month. This is the hardest time of year for me. My tortoises get by on lots of grass clippings, grass hay, cactus pads and occasional pumpkin this time of year.


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## Anyfoot (Oct 15, 2015)

ZEROPILOT said:


> It IS an issue when keeping multiple Redfoot since they sometimes all will decide to jam into just one night house/burrow. They emerge in the morning wet and covered in poo.
> All of my sleeping quarters now have removable tops and the two drainage pipes I just lift and place someplace else. This allows me to clean the area.
> It is true that in the two pens I'm currently using that only have one Redfoot in them, this is not an issue.


Hi ed. In your night house/burrow is it dark?
If so how dark?


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