# TORTOISES IN FLATS/APARTMENTS AND HOUSES WITHOUT A GARDEN??



## margykid (Sep 26, 2014)

Personally I think it is selfish to keep a tortoise and not let it have any outside time. After all they are wild animals.I know many of our members live in flats, apartment blocks and houses without a garden.1.I would find it so hard not letting my tortoise out and 2.do you think it's unfair on the tortoise?I think it's unfair not to let them have any outside time but I know some people with flats take their torts to close parks and so on. But the parks might have pesticides in it and then you have to constantly watch them Incase they get stolen or lost.
So my question is :
SHOULD PEOPLE WITHOUT AN OUTSIDE SPACE OWN A TORTOISE??


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## Evy (Sep 26, 2014)

In my opinion a person can have it if they are responsible to provide the care but it's hard to keep that routine every single day unless you are stay home person/ work from home. Personally, I have a yard but when London was still small I was scared to leave him outside without supervision. I knew that he needs his time outside everyday no matter what. Even when he was bit bigger I was nervous that I won't be home on time to put him inside or what if I want to do something after work/school and I don't have time to come back home on time to put him inside. My idea was to create a ramp in order for London to go outside whenever he want to and come back as he pleases. That helped us and London. In addition to this is to create an environment where London feels safe and be safe is a bit expensive if you are like me that I like my yard to look nice.
I'm not out of subject here. What I'm trying to convey is that if you want to you can compromise to do as much as you can for your tort friend.
With that being said, a person needs to honestly think if they are going to do it for a very long time or just think that they will be able to do it and at the end that are just selfish.

People's nature is to have cool things and yeah, tortoises are cool but they come with a lot of responsibilities. When people say " I want a tortoise too" I tell them that it's hard and it I offer for them to bathe "London" ( of course he does his poop there) and after that they are not as exited as they where before 



London my lovely Sulcata tortoise :0))


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## aztortoisegal (Sep 26, 2014)

Nope. I realized after joining this forum that what I thought was a huge outdoor space for my tiny guy isn't enough. And to think about him confined to a terrarium, inside? Sad. Edited to add: he'll have free run of the whole backyard soon.


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## Delilah1623 (Sep 26, 2014)

Someone can have acres of space and still not take proper care of their pet. 

Can it be done? Yes. Is it more work? Yes. Is it ideal? No. 

I spent a year after my divorce in a 900 square foot apartment with my great dane, 2 small dogs and my 3 cats. It really depends on the person and their commitment to their pet.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 26, 2014)

margykid said:


> Personally I think it is selfish to keep a tortoise and not let it have any outside time. After all they are wild animals.I know many of our members live in flats, apartment blocks and houses without a garden.1.I would find it so hard not letting my tortoise out and 2.do you think it's unfair on the tortoise?I think it's unfair not to let them have any outside time but I know some people with flats take their torts to close parks and so on. But the parks might have pesticides in it and then you have to constantly watch them Incase they get stolen or lost.
> So my question is :
> SHOULD PEOPLE WITHOUT AN OUTSIDE SPACE OWN A TORTOISE??


 There is a way to ask this question for written comments as well as allow people to respond to a poll. 

Fair is an abstract anthropomorhic triviality. 

I have a cat who gets no outside time (balcony once in awhile), there are mean people, parasites and diseased cats out there, as well as cars, he is exposed to none of that. He has already had a much longer life than the progeners from which he came that were wild, and a much longer life than the cats that people let in and out frequently. Cats are domesticated, but return to a feral state pretty quick.

Tortoises are totally wild, but all the kissy kissy people who pose them on their thighs or other body parts as well as describe part of their diet as 'treats' might take exception to 'their' tortoise being a 'wild' animal. They find the tortoise will show them affection, just like tortoises show each other.

One big difference is, many tortoises once habituated to a life in any enclosure, outside or inside do not become 'feral' very well at all, they are overall rather intolernat to major landscape changes. They have a different sense of space than, say cats or people. They have a very strong 'mapping' way of thinking.

There are very easy and specific ways to overcome the mapping and help a tortoise overcome the 'newness' of a changed enclosure, or habitat. Having them inside is a choice for some species that works best no matter the availability of outside space. It is without a doubt more complicated to manage and implement over a long term

This is opposite the case of so many sulcatas sorta being the outside pet that needs little to no active care, as long as a large pen is provided and some form of shelter. This a great thing, it has popularized tortoise keeping, and sulcatas can be good at enduring semi adequate care, much desiring of some active role by the pet owner, but doing 'okay' without.

I don't advocate one care scenario over another based on anything other then the result that care produces, inside, outside or some combination. Show me the tortoise and that is the answer as to what is 'fair'. Does it have a proper diet and is its growth and nature reflect proper husbandry.

The result can be had indoors or outdoors or some mix of both. If you meet the needs of the animals and it is healthy, you are 'doing it' right.


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## turtlesteve (Sep 26, 2014)

I think it's perfectly appropriate to house tortoises indoors and I would prefer it in many cases.

It's much easier to control temperature, humidity, and lighting in indoor enclosures, and in smaller enclosures. I would hazard a guess that most people on this forum don't live in the climate zones that their tortoises are native to. So what is better - an indoor enclosure with the correct temperature & humidity, or a large outdoor enclosure but an inappropriate climate? 

I do not like the practice of moving tortoises frequently between indoor & outdoor enclosures (bringing an indoor tortoise outside for "yard time"). I think this causes unnecessary stress, going along with what Will is saying about tortoises "mapping" their environment - tortoises feel the most secure in familiar surroundings. 

Steve


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## Amanda81 (Sep 26, 2014)

I never thought about it like that. I know tortoises "learn" their area and have. "Settling in" period, but never thought about it stressing them when their put in a new area for an hours or so everyday. I do this. I take my baby's out everyday for an hour or so, and at the same time, trying my best to do everything right for them which includes keeping their stress levels down. So this brings up another issue. In my case, I have outside space, I keep my baby's inside due to couple different reasons, 1-I'm to scared to leave them outside if I'm not standing right there w them, they could flip in the sun, get lost, another animal might get them, what if they don't get in their hide at nite,etc, 2- weather doesn't permit during winter, 3- their indoor environment can be controlled, outside can't, 4- I like that their inside, I can keep a close eye on them during daily activities. Now we all know the actual sun is way better then any light we can use, so what is a person to do? I want to provide the benefits of the great outdoors but on the other hand, I don't want to stress them out everyday while doing this. 
What's the right choice? Which would out weigh the other? 
Do I think a tortoise can get the proper care and not have the "yard" that others might have, yes, I think anyone who really takes tort ownership seriously will do what's best for their tort, inside or out.


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## leigti (Sep 26, 2014)

I keep my tortoise outside in the summer. But I bring them inside in the winter. I also change their furnishings around once in a while, maybe every few months. Should I do that or should I leave it all the same? and does it matter if it is the indoor enclosure or the outdoor enclosure?what is the mapping that people are talking about?


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## turtlesteve (Sep 26, 2014)

With regards to "mapping" - here's my take on it:

Tortoises know where everything is in their environment and prefer to live in a structured manner. They have particular spots where they like to hide or bask, and will keep a rough schedule, using these spots at similar times each day. They know where to look for food and water. When they feel secure, they will spend time out in the open, basking, foraging, or even sleeping. 

Frequent changes in their environment disrupt all of this. Usually the first sign of stress is inordinate amounts of time spent hiding or pacing the enclosure walls.

Steve


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## Jabuticaba (Sep 27, 2014)

Having a wild animal outside of its natural habitat range is unfair in itself. I'd say that the majority of us, including yourself, live in areas where the species of tortoises we keep as pets do not occur naturally. So even the outdoors might not be perfect for the species we have. 

What matters is that we do what's necessary to keep our pet tortoises mentally and physically healthy. Apartment dwellers can still provide natural sunlight to their torts, by putting their enclosures by a sunny window or outside on the balcony, during summer; taking their torts to terraces and parks where they can safely graze; providing enrichment exercises, etc. 


May
THBs: Darwin & Merlin
Aussies: Dax, Vegas, & Cricket
IG: @AUSSOMEAUSSIES


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## lisa127 (Sep 27, 2014)

Yes, they are wild animals. But by your way of thinking, is it fair for any of us to keep tortoises in captivity at all? Should people who don't live in the wild keep tortoises as pets? 

I think with dedication and a caring nature, people without outdoor space can give their pets great care.


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## Pokeymeg (Sep 27, 2014)

I keep my tortoise inside with little to no time outside and I think it's fine. While not ideal by the standards of most folks on this forum, and my own, I do everything I can to take extra care and bridge the gap. Not long after getting my tortoise our landlord sold the property we lived in and my in-progress outdoor enclosure went bye-bye as we scrambled to move. My new apartment has a tiny yard surrounded by a15ft drop on 2 sides and I cannot build any sort of walls (landlord said no)... Not tortoise friendly!! Despite my tortoise now having to live inside until someday when I can afford a house, I think I still take far better care of him than many owners out there (mainly, those not on TFO/educated in correct husbandry). I see no reason why a tortoise can't be kept inside if properly cared for. A tortoise can be kept outside but poorly cared for...


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## Yourlocalpoet (Sep 28, 2014)

Isn't keeping any animal as a pet, essentially a selfish act, regardless of care? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tortoise Forum


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## Pokeymeg (Sep 28, 2014)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> Isn't keeping any animal as a pet, essentially a selfish act, regardless of care?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tortoise Forum



Hahaha that brings up yet another can of worms!


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## wellington (Sep 28, 2014)

I don't think its the best place to own one. However, if you do, I think you should give it some kind of outside time.
As far as not moving them in and out, because of all the stress. I would love to see an facts on this stress of our tortoises because we move items around or because we bring them from the inside enclosure to the outside one. I used to do this for my leopard, bring him in and out. Now I only have to do it with my russian. If they were/are stressed, boy, I wouldn't mind feeling their kind of stress. Please don't stop getting your torts outside for fresh air, natural grazing and the best uvb they can get. I doubt and this is just my opionion and my observation of my own tortoises, they are stressed at least not enough to worry about.


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