# Grocery Store Greens Good



## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 20, 2013)

My Basic diet, (not all the painful details) includes lots of greens I get from the grocery store.

The basic are Romain, (Escarole, Radicchio, Frisse as "Santa Barbara Mix), mulberry, and hibiscus. To these greens I add cut fresh or wetted dry grass. A frequent green rotated in is Arugula aka rocket.

I also rotate in and out all of these found at the local grocery store. The price was blocked for the concern of one of the people working there -> H-mart.

I can also get lots of lemon grass which the tortoises like, but right now I grow my own. I can buy one pound blocks of frozen lemon grass, as might be used in soups, I've not tried that out yet for the tortoises.

I add nutrient rich supplements as well, but for the greens this is working well. The primaries, Romaine and Santa Barbara mix, are handy and very inexpensive when bought in bulk. The others are mixed in as available, and to not give opportunity to stubborn tortoises described by the phrase "My tortoise will only eat ..."

I add the grass in the amount of "as much as will stick" to whatever other greens are offered. Funny, they for the most part don't eat the live grasses in the enclosures, but chow down on it in the salad.

Will


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## parrotlady (Oct 20, 2013)

What store (name)? I have not seen some of the things you pictured. Inquiring minds want to know. Is it an oriental market? I would love to try some of the things you mentioned.


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## wellington (Oct 20, 2013)

Ditto. I have never seen squash leaves for sale. Would love to know the name of the store and if it's not a com on chain, the kind of store it is. Like Heath, ethnic, etc.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 20, 2013)

parrotlady said:


> What store (name)? I have not seen some of the things you pictured. Inquiring minds want to know. Is it an oriental market? I would love to try some of the things you mentioned.



Perhaps not well placed in the OP, but the store is H-mart. There is also a Viet Namese grocery here, Vinh- something, and a few others, Lucky Seafood etc. When I lived in New Jersey the 'asian' grocery stores were even more numerous than here in sunny San Diego, and often simply named "Asian Foods".

In Philadelphia most of this was available at a store catering to people from the Indian subcontinent. 

Will


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## forujade00 (Oct 20, 2013)

In Maryland it is called G-Mart. It is an international market.


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## wellington (Oct 20, 2013)

See, I have never heard of any of those here in Chicago. We do have a lot of ethnic food stores, but they are not on the north side where I live. Sorry, Will, I thought the H-Mart was a misspell or auto correct of some sort.


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## Sulcata_Sandy (Oct 20, 2013)

I have never seen ANY of those greens. Dandelion? I had no idea anyone would sell that. People pay good money to have dandelion poisoned from their yards.
I def let mine grow. 

Thanks for posting, I will scour Asian markets when I'm in the city.


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## tortoise5643 (Oct 20, 2013)

I wish pur produce store had all that variety


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## Yellow Turtle (Oct 21, 2013)

Will, do you use this diet to all species which are grazers as well? Because if I use this kind of diet, usually my torts will become choosy and only pick the greens over the grass cuts


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 21, 2013)

I make all the "particles" of differt greens such that they are not well able to do that. Water to some extent acts like glue holding different things together.

When at the Philadelphia zoo, I mixed a very small amount of banana in, a tradition for some reason, that made all the particles stick together somewhat, now I use aloe. It is sticky, and makes different pieces of one kind of green stick to another. The leopards don't like the sesame leaves, while the small manouria eat whatever they can get their beaks on. Pancakes will reject or favorable seek one thing over another on any given day, but might go back the next day and eat the rejected item, now more dry.

I think they are conservative to try new things sometimes. If it keeps appearing in the food offered they will try it, if of five animals housed together, two try it, the others seem to trust that and will try it. Trying it can be a many meal effort, as if they are waiting to see how what they ate effects them.

The leopards consistently show dislike for the sesame leaves, every one likes the squash leaves. The pancakes will preferentially pick out the aloe, it is very sticky.

They all like the methi, it does taste good to me as well. It usually has small yellow flowers, they will pick those out, as they eat a larger particle also with the leaves. 

I'll post some images of the prepared food process next time I put it all together, later today.

Will


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## parrotlady (Oct 21, 2013)

Thanks for all the info. I will have to check out the Asian markets here in Tucson.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 21, 2013)

I did a GOOGLE search for "H-Mart" and it came back with many different Asian Groceries, one of which is here in my town. It's a little far from where I live, but I'll keep it in mind for the next time I'm over in that direction.

Thanks for the pictures, Will. But I must say the greens all look pretty wilted and not real fresh.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Oct 21, 2013)

Excellent Will, Thank you. Lemon grass? Who knew? 

In our part of the world, we have recently seen Middle Eastern markets go in and they have dandelions and arugula all the time. Latino markets carry nopales/cactus pads since it is a staple for their culture and just yesterday I bought prickly pears, 6 for 97 cents (yep, that's what I said). Also, the 99 Cents Only store has produce. For 99 cents! I know these are only in the southwest. They have had Earthbound organic salad mixes like Power Greens, Herb Blend, the kind in the clear tub often. And Asian markets, again, because of their culture, carry a lot of different greens. Greens are a staple for them. Our country was rather gentrified for decades in the produce selection department. The diverse culture fusion, with these markets filling a need, rocks for tortoise keepers. For us, and our keep, actually. Keepers can get healthier too. One for you, two for me ...

I use the herb scissors, they come in either 3 or 5 blades, to chop and blend, as Will suggested above. Blend, blend, blend all those little pieces and your tortoises will not be able to be picky pick them outs. 

Growing your own greens is the best thing if you can, of course. Seeds are the best value of them all. If I may also suggest, if your community has a weekly farmer's market, go! Run, don't walk. Best place ever for edible greens. Also, if you make friends with the farmers, you may get an end of the day deal. Some things are thrown away (lettuce pieces, broken kale leaves, wilted squash blossoms)that can be fed to our tortoises as is. Also, community gardens are a great source. Sometimes, same as farmers markets, there is abundance or damage and if not used, ends up in the compost pile. So make friends, and ask if you can be part of the process for your tortoises.

Tortoises can make us better gardeners and eat your veggies eaters.: )


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## MikeCow1 (Oct 21, 2013)

I keep trying to grow weeds, like plantain and others. But, the only thing that will grow is dandelions. Luckily, where I live in OC most of the chains like Stater Bros, Sprouts and the like all carry dandelions, arugula, cactus and stuff. So never any shortage. I find the local farmer's markets charge more than the chains.


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## lkwagner (Oct 21, 2013)

SenjiSandy said:


> I have never seen ANY of those greens. Dandelion? I had no idea anyone would sell that. People pay good money to have dandelion poisoned from their yards.
> I def let mine grow.
> 
> Thanks for posting, I will scour Asian markets when I'm in the city.



Not sure if you have meijer but the meijers by me all have dandelion. 
My dad on the other hand pays a lottt of money to get dandelions and other weeds out of his yard lol


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## peasinapod (Oct 21, 2013)

Dandelion is found throughout the italian kitchen. It is not strange to find dandelion seeds on sale between other veggies like zucchini etc.


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## StarSapphire22 (Oct 21, 2013)

My local Cashwise has dandelion kindof hidden in the tippytop corner of the organic section...they're a fairly small chain, upper midwest thing. Nowhere else around here does....just "regular" veggies mostly.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 21, 2013)

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/8zh6xag5huyc78i/cLRJCvGlpm

This is a link to a progression of things that I can get, in addition to those you see in the first post. Then with many more images, you see how I chop it up, and what the end result is. I think even if my tortoises could use tweezers, and had them, they are no going to able to pick out one thing over the other so well. If they refuse all, that's Ok today, tomorrow is another day. Eventually they acquiesce, and eat it all.

The beverage can is in many images for spatial/size comparison. Images are not in an order anymore so than I would actually prepare one thing over another, if I imaged each item in its own sequence of preparation that would double/triple the prep time.

I made a much more complicated mix, for the sake of example in one collection of images. It ended up being about twice the "leafy" volume that I would prepare on any given day. 

That double amount does not refer to the supplements. That is the amount I use for half the total leafy volume prepared as seen, until the last two or three images where I have halved the amount. The supplements are 2 to 4 scoops of ZooMed as shown and then 2 to 4 scoops of Purina Laynea Sunfresh crumbles layer food for chickens. Never more than 6 scoops total, it could be 1:5 to 5:1. Once placed in the small sour cream tub I add the Aloe Juice to twice the depth of the dry things, that gets absorbed with no spare liquid. Water is used the same way.

I show dry, then wetted, then scissor cut wetted greens. I show a bunch of mixed fresh grass as well, today I put them both in, it is usually one or the other. My grass garden consists of American millet, lemon, crab, and St. Augustine grass. The image of the growing plants is a few of the grasses and the small hibiscus crop. I still have not tried or used the frozen lemongrass.

All the greens that I use over about a month are in this one salad. The "usual" is about 80% Romaine and the Santa Barbara mix. That bag of six romaine bunches is $2.79, the Santa Barbara mix is $5.99. As the base, that will last about a week for the animals that get the leafy abundance salad. Most everyday the other 20% is Mulberry (not in these images) and hibiscus. All these other things end up being a low %, maybe as a much as 10% when mulberry is still available or 15%+ when the mulberry drops its leaves. IMO this constant/dynamic preparation prevents a fixation on a certain salad or mix of greens.

I rinse all of them, and let them drip off, but don't get crazy with that. The moisture helps the grass bits stick to the leafy bits.

The hatchlings eat it all indiscriminately across the eating area, with the exception that the leos don't seem to like the sesame so much. Adult wild caught pancakes are the least picky of wild caught tortoises I have. Some individuals on one day or another pick out the stem pieces over the leaf pieces, some don't seem to care. When two pancake are eating at the same time, the concern to pick and choose goes away.

In short, to characterize a leafy plant as unacceptable because it came from a grocery stores, is short sighted. If you only have a Quickie Mart for most of your shopping availability, I get it, but then that indicates a more rural home, and the corresponding abundance of space to grow your own food and or harvest weeds. There are no doubt a few "that one place" hundreds of miles from anywhere that is also a barren wasteland of post apocalyptic proportions, I got nothing for you, but mail order herbs and grasses for your iceberg lettuce and grated carrots.

There are the mail order places for salad mixes and supplements designed just for tortoises. In shorter short: Grocery Greens are Good.

If you seek an explanation for an image, shout it out with the sequence number please.

Will




MikeCow1 said:


> I keep trying to grow weeds, like plantain and others. But, the only thing that will grow is dandelions. Luckily, where I live in OC most of the chains like Stater Bros, Sprouts and the like all carry dandelions, arugula, cactus and stuff. So never any shortage. I find the local farmer's markets charge more than the chains.



Yeah, there are 'desert' types of plantain, but most are more a riparian environment plant. Will


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## AnnV (Oct 21, 2013)

Wow, Will, THANK YOU for such an informative post (and time consuming, I'm sure!)


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## thatrebecca (Oct 21, 2013)

wellington said:


> See, I have never heard of any of those here in Chicago. We do have a lot of ethnic food stores, but they are not on the north side where I live. Sorry, Will, I thought the H-Mart was a misspell or auto correct of some sort.



Hey Barb, where on the north side are you? I used to live in Evanston and would frequently shop at the Asian grocers off the Argyle el stop. It's been a while since I lived there, but I think it's still a primarily Vietnamese neighborhood with grocers that carry a lot of the stuff in the OP. Great Asian bakeries, too, if you're feeling like getting yourself a treat along with your torts.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 22, 2013)

Yvonne G said:


> I did a GOOGLE search for "H-Mart" and it came back with many different Asian Groceries, one of which is here in my town. It's a little far from where I live, but I'll keep it in mind for the next time I'm over in that direction.
> 
> Thanks for the pictures, Will. But I must say the greens all look pretty wilted and not real fresh.



The greens are no more or less fresh than the Santa Barbara mix, just like dairy, if you want the more distant expiration date, you have to reach to the back of the shelf. I don't often find the bunches at the front the best to buy with greens either.

Will


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## gtc (Oct 22, 2013)

Will said:


> https://www.dropbox.com/sc/8zh6xag5huyc78i/cLRJCvGlpm
> 
> This is a link to a progression of things that I can get, in addition to those you see in the first post. Then with many more images, you see how I chop it up, and what the end result is. I think even if my tortoises could use tweezers, and had them, they are no going to able to pick out one thing over the other so well. If they refuse all, that's Ok today, tomorrow is another day. Eventually they acquiesce, and eat it all.
> 
> ...


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 22, 2013)

*Re: RE: Grocery Store Greens Good*



gtc said:


> I see you feed your torts many vietnamese greens. We buy those all the time, I had no idea torts could eat them! Are there others on this form feeding them to their torts? Any links explaing which asian greens are safe and which are not?



What do you mean "safe"?

Will


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## gtc (Oct 22, 2013)

Will said:


> gtc said:
> 
> 
> > I see you feed your torts many vietnamese greens. We buy those all the time, I had no idea torts could eat them! Are there others on this form feeding them to their torts? Any links explaing which asian greens are safe and which are not?
> ...



I have been using info from various care sheets and also thetortoisetable to determine which greens are safe to feed and which I should aviod feeding due to potential toxic properties.


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## dokomadake (Oct 23, 2013)

I use a lot of these same greens from the korean market right down the road. Me and my tortoises love those greens!


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## Yvonne G (Oct 23, 2013)

Safe - if YOU can eat it, your tortoise can eat it. The key is to feed a nice variety, don't get stuck feeding the same thing at every feeding.

Spurge and purselane (weeds) are both high in oxalates, however, in the wild tortoises eat them all the time. Is it a good idea to feed your tortoise spurge and only spurge every day? No, but occasionally it isn't going to hurt him.


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## gtc (Oct 23, 2013)

Yvonne G said:


> Safe - if YOU can eat it, your tortoise can eat it. The key is to feed a nice variety, don't get stuck feeding the same thing at every feeding.t
> 
> Spurge and purselane (weeds) are both high in oxalates, however, in the wild tortoises eat them all the time. Is it a good idea to feed your tortoise spurge and only spurge every day? No, but occasionally it isn't going to hurt him.



That opens up so many more types of store greens I will start feeding my tortoise. I guess I have been too influenced by the tortoisetable. Thanks.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 23, 2013)

GTC, I better understand. You make me glad for writing this thread, if you now see a wider array of things to feed your tortoise.

Frankly If I had a large outdoor area, I would elect to have enclosures managed, not tortoises, a tricky flip of words, in that I would seek to grow what they eat, in their enclosure, manage the whole small eco-system, rather than tortoises in an outdoor pen

But I live in an apartment with very limited space, so feed my tortoises from the grocery store, for a large volume of their intake.

I try to sort out what some of those plants are, then look further to see what nutritional properties they may have. But I am not well able to translate the Viet Namese names into latin, for that further analysis. So I default to Yvonne's POV, if I eat it, at least a small infrequent portion for the tortoise is going to be OK.

The tortoise table is a great resource, but no one resource is all the best of tortoise keeping. I frequently try to find source material on what the wildtype eats to guide me.

My primary driver in this effort is to prevent 'palate myopia' in the tortoises. 

Will


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## gtc (Oct 24, 2013)

Will said:


> GTC, I better understand. You make me glad for writing this thread, if you now see a wider array of things to feed your tortoise.
> 
> Frankly If I had a large outdoor area, I would elect to have enclosures managed, not tortoises, a tricky flip of words, in that I would seek to grow what they eat, in their enclosure, manage the whole small eco-system, rather than tortoises in an outdoor pen
> 
> ...



Yes, thanks Will  this was a great thread, and it came just in time for the winter. The weeds in my yard will soon be covered by snow.


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## mightymizz (Oct 27, 2013)

I have had a tortoise vomit Mustard greens when I fed it the first time. Have you noticed any vomiting with the introduction of a never before eaten leaf?

I didn't mix in some Mustard Green, just put a leaf in by itself.

Thanks for this article and Photo's too!


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 27, 2013)

*Re: RE: Grocery Store Greens Good*



mightymizz said:


> I have had a tortoise vomit Mustard greens when I fed it the first time. Have you noticed any vomiting with the introduction of a never before eaten leaf?
> 
> I didn't mix in some Mustard Green, just put a leaf in by itself.
> 
> Thanks for this article and Photo's too!



I don't think I have ever seen a tortoise vomit, the way I think of what vomit is. I have seen tortoises change their interest to swallow what is already in their mouth, I call that wretching, could be the same thing? 

In that case yes I've seen it. It looks uncomforatble, but they get whatever it is out of their mouth. The example that comes to mind is an Egyptian wretching some greens out of it's mouth, as those greens included a slug.

I've not tried mustard greens, but I might sometime. So far the most favored strange grocery green that they all like is the squash leaves.

Will


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## AnnV (Oct 27, 2013)

I tried mustard greens. No one was particularly interested but I chopped it and put it in the mix. 
Then I put the mustard in my green smoothie for the first time. WOW SPICY.
Mustardy!

My star vomited once. I didn't see him do it. But I found it and there was no doubt it was thrown up. It was yellow summer squash. Which he had eaten before. I am thinking maybe my cat was walking on top of his enclosure and he dumped his meal out of stress. It was a lot. I dont let the cats in the basement with the torts any more.


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## PrincessBowser (Oct 28, 2013)

My Redfoot loves her collard greens! 
If I want to introduce her to squash or zucchini I can just put it in there raw and cut up? She's a couple years old (I think)


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 28, 2013)

PrincessBowser said:


> My Redfoot loves her collard greens!
> If I want to introduce her to squash or zucchini I can just put it in there raw and cut up? She's a couple years old (I think)



YES, washed and whole is good too. Those seeds inside this kind of food item are a vital part of gut health in these species. But that is also relative to the size of the tortoise. A small tortoise and big seeds is not good. I consider that the tortoise is 'up and running' not a first meal neonate, and that a single seed would be no where near a mouth full. I typically consider the tortoise should be able to hold about a dozen seeds in it's mouth as a size relationship of seed to mouth. Then as they eat a whole squash, the incidental seed intake is OK. 

Will


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## PrincessBowser (Oct 28, 2013)

Fantastic. Thank you


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## Tom (Dec 21, 2013)

This is a fantastic thread with lots of great ideas! I've never seen squash leaves for sale anywhere. I will have to check my local asian markets.

Question though Will: What percentage of "regular tortoise owning folks" do you think go to the lengths you go to to make grocery store greens into a good diet vs. just peeling off a few leaves of plain romaine and dropping them into the enclosure?


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 21, 2013)

Tom said:


> This is a fantastic thread with lots of great ideas! I've never seen squash leaves for sale anywhere. I will have to check my local asian markets.
> 
> Question though Will: What percentage of "regular tortoise owning folks" do you think go to the lengths you go to to make grocery store greens into a good diet vs. just peeling off a few leaves of plain romaine and dropping them into the enclosure?



I wouldn't guess a number, or percent, but hope to drive the 'regular tortoise owning folks' to spend more time on a good diet, than on little stone paths to the painted house hide on their barbie doll tortoise table.

I've seen the same thing with Zoo Directors for that matter Tom, they want the shiny new building with a donors name on it, and forget all about the day to day maintenance of the animals inside. The new building gets all the tours from dignitaries of animals the Director know little about.

It's not like going to the store is something you don't do already, yeah, so just look for the the unusual things. Take an imagine with your smart phone, do a little goole-ing, and figure it out. 

"No biggy" as we would say when I was a little kid. Google has made most inquiry "no biggy". There are numerous science based analysis on the web of food nutrient content.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 6, 2014)

Looks like based on other threads, I ought to give this a bounce.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 6, 2014)

Well, thank goodness for bouncing, because I'm not a bit fan of the bump!


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## tortoise5643 (Jan 7, 2014)

*Re: RE: Grocery Store Greens Good*



forujade00 said:


> In Maryland it is called G-Mart. It is an international market.



In Texas it's called k-mart. Lol


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## Saleama (Jan 8, 2014)

I went to an H-Mart here in Dallas earlier this week. The produce department is the most amazing thing I have seen in a very long time. I bought well over a weeks worth of food items for my babies for very little money. I also bought a few snacks for myself, lol. If you have not tried an Asian store, I would suggest you look for the Asian market place in your city. There is SO much to explore there and so many of the things you think you have to grow for your little guys are actually grocery items in these markets!


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 8, 2014)

Saleama said:


> I went to an H-Mart here in Dallas earlier this week. The produce department is the most amazing thing I have seen in a very long time. I bought well over a weeks worth of food items for my babies for very little money. I also bought a few snacks for myself, lol. If you have not tried an Asian store, I would suggest you look for the Asian market place in your city. There is SO much to explore there and so many of the things you think you have to grow for your little guys are actually grocery items in these markets!



I have to admit it, my primary driver is to walk down an aisle, find something I have no clue about, buy it, then figure out how to prepare it for myself. Mostly great results a and few turkeys for my taste.

Glad for you and your tortoises.


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## enchilada (Aug 17, 2014)

Will said:


> Perhaps not well placed in the OP, but the store is H-mart. There is also a Viet Namese grocery here, Vinh- something, and a few others, Lucky Seafood etc. When I lived in New Jersey the 'asian' grocery stores were even more numerous than here in sunny San Diego, and often simply named "Asian Foods".
> 
> In Philadelphia most of this was available at a store catering to people from the Indian subcontinent.
> 
> Will


The place you described sounds like Mira Mesa at sunny San Diego


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 19, 2014)

enchilada said:


> The place you described sounds like Mira Mesa at sunny San Diego


 That would be right.


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## David Harmon (Sep 1, 2015)

Hello can you fed leopard tortoise the leafy greens rom carrot tops?


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 1, 2015)

David Harmon said:


> Hello can you fed leopard tortoise the leafy greens rom carrot tops?


http://www.feedipedia.org/node/539

I would offer it alone at first to interpret palatable-ness and desirability. Then if it is eaten at some - - go ahead and add it to your mix. I have fed it out sometimes, as I have also mixed carrot greens into my own salads, it has a somewhat bitter taste. I found when I have grown carrots the greens from the thinning out process, before a giant tap root grows, are the best tasting.


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## Keith D. (Sep 1, 2015)

If your going to feed grocery produce please make sure your getting organic.


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## JLM (Apr 7, 2017)

Will said:


> https://www.dropbox.com/sc/8zh6xag5huyc78i/cLRJCvGlpm
> 
> This is a link to a progression of things that I can get, in addition to those you see in the first post. Then with many more images, you see how I chop it up, and what the end result is. I think even if my tortoises could use tweezers, and had them, they are no going to able to pick out one thing over the other so well. If they refuse all, that's Ok today, tomorrow is another day. Eventually they acquiesce, and eat it all.
> 
> ...



Great thread but the album is empty ...did it move? Is it still available?


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## Kapidolo Farms (Apr 7, 2017)

@JLM I don't know what happened to the drop box images. I have posted several salads as have a few others on the meandering thread "live Naked People" in the personal promotion sub forum.

I chop across most leafy heads of greens from about one inch near the top where it is very leafy, to about and 1/8 inch near the bottom where it is mostly stalk. I got a hand crank food grinder for squash, yams/sweet potato, and cactus pad.

I try to make each salad comprise of no less than 6 varieties of greens, with an emphasis in descending order, on escarole -> Romaine -> Spring mix (4 or five kinds of greens right there), arugula, dandelion greens, and then some other thing I might pick or get like hibiscus leaves, grape leaves, mulberry leaves. I also include a large potion of some kind of flower about once a week. Most often for it availability to me Cape Honey Suckle blossoms. Hibiscus flowers usually get prioritize for a few species over the general salad mix. For a few species I chop and mix in mushrooms to the base mix.


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