# sulcata has slowed, not eating



## marcy4hope (Nov 29, 2012)

just been wondering what's up with my 15 month old sulcata. there's no change in what i've been feeding him or his temps in his enclosure. but, i've noticed he hasn't eaten anything for the past 4 days that i can tell. i think maybe one of those days it looked like he'd maybe eaten a little, but the past 2 days he won't eat anything. he stays in his hide. i have gotten him out and soaked him and he did pee all over me the other night - so i know for sure he's peeing.  but, if i get him out of his hide, he just runs right back in. temps are all good and warm and humidity is high. his eyes and nose are completely clear. i know they don't hibernate, so am wondering what else could be going on?


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## wellington (Nov 29, 2012)

Is he pooping? If you haven't seen any in a few days, maybe try a nice long warm soak in the tub, where he will move all over the place and also get the bowels moving too. Just incase he's a little plugged up. Other then that, I don't know what to tell ya. My Leo doesn't eat as much since it has gotten cold outside, even though he is inside, but he still eats every day. Good luck, hope all is fine.


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## ascott (Nov 29, 2012)

> try a nice long warm soak



Ditto....and I would make the soak at least an hour of warm water...what type of substrate are you using in his enclosure...


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## marcy4hope (Nov 30, 2012)

his poo is fine. i do soak him and he's been going in his soak if i soak him in the mornings. if i soak in the evening, he's usually already gone in the enclosure. i use coco coir for substrate.


i have also weighed him today and he went from 496 to 471 from the beginning to end of november. now i'm REALLY concerned. i soaked him good, and he peed and pooped, but when i put him back in the enclosure he went right back to his hide and ignored the food bowl. other than that - he acts fine. if i get him out for awhile, he runs around like normal. just not sure what the problem is. temps are in the 80s to 90s overall in his enclosure, with a basking spot of 100.


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## marcy4hope (Nov 30, 2012)

got my sully outside for a little bit this morning, even though it's really too cold out. normally he runs around eating as fast as he can. this morning, he found one old dandelion that he ate and that was it. wasn't interested in eating at all.


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## Tom (Nov 30, 2012)

Hmmmmm.... All I can think is to run down a list of possibilities and try to eliminate each one.

1. Temps. With the cooling temps and shorter days, what have you done to make his enclosure warmer since your room temp is certainly cooler now than it was in August? How long are your lights on? Open toppen enclosure? Post a pic of the enclosure for us. Maybe we'll see a clue there. How are you measuring those temps. Stick-on dial? Remote probed digital? Temp gun?

2. Foods. What all are you offering? Give us a run down of his normal diet.

3. Environment. You said you let him out and he ate a dandelion. Where is "out"? Describe the enclosure for us. How big is it? What size is the indoor enclosure? What sort of lighting/heating are you using inside?

4. Intestinal impaction. If he's pooping normally, we can eliminate this one. If not, do some hour long soaks. Let him struggle to climb out of his soaking tub for a long time. All that exercise coupled with the warm water will often get things moving. Just keep it warm. You can also try a car ride. Put him in a plastic tub to contain the mess, pre-warm the car, and go for a drive somewhere. Often the car makes them poop like crazy.

5. Bladder stones or something similar. How much calcium do you give him and how often? What is your normal soaking routine? Does he ever eat pebbles outside? An X-ray will eliminate, or confirm, these two things and give you some peace of mind.

These are the main things that come to mind for me. Let's look at these things first and go from there.


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## marcy4hope (Nov 30, 2012)

Tom said:


> Hmmmmm.... All I can think is to run down a list of possibilities and try to eliminate each one.
> 
> 1. Temps. With the cooling temps and shorter days, what have you done to make his enclosure warmer since your room temp is certainly cooler now than it was in August? How long are your lights on? Open toppen enclosure? Post a pic of the enclosure for us. Maybe we'll see a clue there. How are you measuring those temps. Stick-on dial? Remote probed digital? Temp gun?


am at work today, so will have to get temp info when i get home. i have added another heat bulb above the hide recently to help keep it warmer since i thought the enclosure was a bit cooler than it should be. it's not a completely enclosed environment, but almost. don't have a current pic, but can take one tonight. i have a humidifier pumped into it and now 2 heat bulbs. i actually keep the bulbs on 24/7. the long mvb flourescent light that i have goes off at night, but the 2 heat bulbs stay on. maybe that is too much light. i don't really have a good night time where it's completely dark.


Tom said:


> 2. Foods. What all are you offering? Give us a run down of his normal diet.


i'm feeding spring mix and mazuri as the base diet. i add pumpkin and/or cactus to this about twice a week. i have a cuttle bone in there with him and add d3 on occasion. if i add the d3, he usually refuses to eat, so i don't add this too often.


Tom said:


> 3. Environment. You said you let him out and he ate a dandelion. Where is "out"? Describe the enclosure for us. How big is it? What size is the indoor enclosure? What sort of lighting/heating are you using inside?


i just took him out for about 10-15 minutes this morning in the yard and watched him the whole time. no enclosure. i do have a big fenced pen that i put him in normally when i'm outside with him and it's warm. it's portable. i just didn't drag it out this morning since i knew i'd only be out a few minutes. i'll be off work tomorrow afternoon and it's supposed to be 70 here, so i will get it out then and give him some outdoor time before we get back in the 40's again like it has been lately.


Tom said:


> 4. Intestinal impaction. If he's pooping normally, we can eliminate this one. If not, do some hour long soaks. Let him struggle to climb out of his soaking tub for a long time. All that exercise coupled with the warm water will often get things moving. Just keep it warm. You can also try a car ride. Put him in a plastic tub to contain the mess, pre-warm the car, and go for a drive somewhere. Often the car makes them poop like crazy.


his poop is normal for him. solid, not hard at all. i soaked him a 1/2 hour this morning and have been doing this daily now. hadn't been doing it daily before this because his enclosure is so humid and he would soak himself a lot in his water bowl. but, he's not doing that now, so i'm doing it for him. have wondered if i should add some pedialite or baby food to his soak? never heard of the car thing. that's interesting.


Tom said:


> 5. Bladder stones or something similar. How much calcium do you give him and how often? What is your normal soaking routine? Does he ever eat pebbles outside? An X-ray will eliminate, or confirm, these two things and give you some peace of mind.


he has been urinating in his soak. i do think it seems like he's urinating more than he did before. it is soft white in color, not gritty at all. i did see him try to eat on a rock in the yard this morning, but normally i've never seen him eat pebbles. he did try and eat some sticks a couple weeks ago when i had him outside on a warm day, but i watched him like a hawk and got them out of his mouth quickly. thought it was odd he kept going for sticks and dead leaves to eat mostly and not as much for the fresher grass.


Tom said:


> These are the main things that come to mind for me. Let's look at these things first and go from there.


thanks for the help everyone. i'll get actual temps when i get home tonight. i'm learning that i'm not sure my nerves are very good for raising a tortoise. i probably get way too worried about every little change in his behavior. i'm sure they are not as fragile as i think they are, but when i see weight loss i really get concerned. have been reading up on dehydration and am wondering if this could be possible? also, i am wondering if the enclosure being a little too small for him is part of the problem. he's grown a lot, quickly before this and we are still working on his new, bigger enclosure. just have the staining on the outside left to do on it and then we are done. should be another week and we will have it finished. but, i've also wondered if he is less active because there's not enough room for him in the current enclosure? not sure this would cause him to actually quit eating though.


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## Tom (Nov 30, 2012)

Seeing some clues now.

Many people get caught off guard by the cooler temps of winter. Sounds like this happened to you. I'd really check those temps and make sure he's staying warm at night. I like it no lower than 80 anywhere in the enclosure. Next thing: They need it dark at night. This could really be messing with his internal clock. My usual strategy is to have a ceramic heating element on a thermostat. This maintains the ambient day and night and produces just heat, when needed, but no light. Then I put a basking bulb on a 12 hour timer. You might want to go for 13-14 hours until his appetite comes back. I often use a regular florescent tube for additional light and this can be on its own timer or the same timer as the basking bulb.

He should not be dehydrated in a humid enclosure with a humid hide box and the regular soaks that you have been doing.

Bringing them into a small indoor enclosure when they have gotten used to a larger one outdoors all summer, CAN sometimes cause this sort of lethargy/depression. Sulcatas need space. They need to run around and exercise. Mine have a 4x8' indoor enclosure, and they still seem a bit perturbed by not getting as much outside time.

This is what I would try for you:
Get the bigger enclosure up and running ASAP.
Heat it with a CHE or two on a thermostat to make sure your temps are correct.
Have a basking spot, but also some ambient florescent light too, all on a timer, so his sun will go down and he can rest every night.
If he doesn't eat the food with the calcium supplement on it, you might be using too much. Just a little pinch is all you need, and mix it in thoroughly.
The stick eating makes me think he might need a mineral supplement too. Order up some "MinerAll" or Repashy. You can alternate these with the plain regular calcium.

Once you get your set up right, there is really no reason to worry. PM me or ask your questions here, and I'd love to help you take away some of the worry... Appetite loss and lethargy ARE concerns. Your worry is not unfounded in this case. However, these things are usually caused by some correctable element of the environment and we can get it fixed.


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## sibi (Nov 30, 2012)

Do you have other pets in the house? If so, what kind of pet(s)? Watch the rock-eaters. I found that my sulcata likes to eat rocks and it impacted him; but, that wasn't all. The worst was yet to come. He defecated even though he had over ten small rocks in his gut. He eventually pass all of them, but it was real hard on him because he had a bladder stone 1" in diameter even though he urinated everyday. He tried as hard as he could to get it out, and he got it out of the bladder but got stuck in his pelvic area which really clogged him up. He eventually needed surgery. That's not to say that I think your tort has this problem because I tend to think Tom is right on some of his analysis. Just do what you can, and if worse comes to worse, take him to the vet for some x-rays and blood/fecal tests.


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## marcy4hope (Nov 30, 2012)

wow - i just checked me temps in the enclosure and was in shock when i finished. the temp under the basking light was 115 degrees.  poor guy would probably get way too hot if he were under it. the humidity there was 37%. now - this temp was taken while the humidifier was running in his enclosure. the humidifier is set on a timer so it comes on for awhile and then goes back off, several times a day.

the temp in his humid hide was 92-95. the humidity was 82%. the humid hide has a red "nighttime" bulb hanging over the top of it. i have now turned it off and will leave it off awhile so i can figure out what the temp would be without it on in there.

so, this being said - do you think part of the problem is that he's TOO hot??

tonight, just for good measure, when i soaked him, i mixed pureed pumpkin, gatorade and water together. it was 1/2 a bottle of gatorade, 1/2 a can of pumpkin and then i filled the rest of the sink with water.


the hide temperature right now with the red lamp off is 85 with a humidity of 92%.


i will order some miner-all and add that once i get him eating anything.


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## marcy4hope (Nov 30, 2012)

after letting the temp gauge sit awhile longer the humidity in that hide is now up to 99% but the temp is only 84.


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## Tom (Nov 30, 2012)

What are the temps on the cool side? What is the overnight temp?


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## marcy4hope (Dec 1, 2012)

temp on cool side was low 90's. overnight temp IN the hide was 76. i only had on a red basking bulb last night that was near the hide, but not directly over it.

also - when i got up this morning, louis was sitting with just his butt inside the door of his hide and the rest of him outside of it. that is the FIRST time i've seen any portion of him outside of that hide in the last week unless i take him out. even if i took him out, he'd always run right back in there. so, i was really happy to just see any part of him outside of that hide for a change.

i put fresh food in with him and waited awhile, but he still didn't show any interest at all. so, i have him back in a pumpkin/gatorade warm soak for awhile this morning, which he really seems to like. i haven't actually seen him drink any of it, but he was sprawled out in it totally relaxed with his closed mouth lowered into it.

at this point, i'd just like to see him eat something! i will take him back outside before i leave for work. it's a bit cool out, but maybe even just 15 minutes of fresh air will do him good and i hope he'll snag another dandelion or something. i get off at noon, and it's supposed to be warm out today, so i'll put him out in a pen for a couple hours this afternoon and see what happens.


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## marcy4hope (Dec 1, 2012)

Got him out and still not eating. He walks over his feed bowl like its not there. Doesn't even smell it. I think he also acts a little slow. Not totally lethargic by any means, just slower than normal


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## marcy4hope (Dec 1, 2012)

i was able to get my tort outside this afternoon for over an hour. the wind really picked up and it started getting cold, so i had to bring him back in. but, while he was out, i did seem him take probably about 8-10 bites of grass. i don't think that's enough to make up for a week of not eating, but at least he got something in him. i have never fed fruit to him at all, but today i put some strawberry in his enclosure thinking it would entice him. he won't even smell it.


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## Tom (Dec 1, 2012)

Something is not right in your indoor enclosure. I suspect it has to do with lighting. Those temps are warm, but not enough to shut them down like what you are seeing. 76 at night and 90s during the day is fine for a I used to run 115 basking spots for my sulcatas during my old "hot and dry" days. It never shut them down or slowed their appetite. My summer time ambient creeps into the low nineties too. Not a problem. They eat a ton in the morning, take a nap in the hot part of the day and then come out and eat another ton in the evening.

Post a pic of the enclosure and give us a good explanation of what lighting you are using and when.


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## marcy4hope (Dec 2, 2012)

tom - i'll have to try and get a photo tomorrow. but, this afternoon i was busy working on my torts new enclosure. we put a last coat of kennel seal on the inside and stain on the outside. so, this week, we will get him in it. just have to wait for dry time and to put the plexiglass in the lid then we are done. 

i do think it's an environmental issue with his current cage possibly, because i took him outside for some sun today since we had another warm day and i decided to just soak some mazuri and take outside with me for him to eat instead of trying to feed him in his indoor set up. and, what do you know. as soon as i put him outdoors and put the food down in front of him, he tore into it. he ate 6 pieces of soaked mazuri and then must have been full. he mashed up 2 more pieces a little, but didn't eat anymore. i also took out his spring mix, some carrots and even a strawberry (which i never feed) and he snubbed all of the other food except the mazuri. so, eating is still an issue, but at least i was really happy to get the mazuri in him. i'm still soaking him some in the gatorade, but i feel like i'm at least making a little progress with him.

i'll try and post a picture tomorrow of his current cage, but i'm thinking the new setup may really be the answer and i hope it's just an issue that the current one is just way to small for how fast he's grown recent.


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## marcy4hope (Dec 3, 2012)

here is his current enclosure, obviously way too small for him. i hope we will have him in his new, much bigger enclosure by tuesday night this week. don't let him fool you in these photos by him being in his feed bowl. i'd just brought him in from outside where he'd eaten just a couple pieces of mazuri and got some exercise. he only walked through his feed bowl in these photos, on his way back into his hide.





you can see i have a humidifier that pumps in steam off and off through the day. it's on a timer to go on and off for a couple hours each time and then an hour or two off from 5 am to 8 p.m. it doesn't run during the night. i have a basking light and a long uvb tube light. in his new enclosure i have purchased a che and mvb to use. this enclosure will be used for a new leopard baby i purchased last week. i will be replacing the basking bulb with a mvb and we will add a che. my husband will redo the lid, so the che and mvb will actually hang a little further down in the cage instead of sitting above it.




you can see he's already outgrown the "door" for his new hide too. i will get him a bigger tub to put in his new enclosure this week, or at least cut the hole much bigger for him.




the top of this cage is set up so i can move that basking light to one of three different locations. the rock in the back corner is just there because he went through a spell recently where he kept trying to climb that corner and flipped over twice. i put that rock there to deter him and he quit going there.


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## Tom (Dec 3, 2012)

I don't see anything wrong with your enclosure and it all sounds good too. But based on his behavior, there is clearly something not to his liking in there. I'm hopeful that the new enclosure will solve your problem.


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## marcy4hope (Dec 3, 2012)

you know. the more i looked at that picture, i realized that this behavior of not eating started when i put that new hide in there. the other one was smaller and had no bottom. it was actually an ice cream plastic carton with one side cut out. but, he kept moving it around, so i finally took it out and got him this new one. it works better, but i'm wondering if it's just a coincidence that he stopped eating around the same time i put it in there.


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## Tom (Dec 3, 2012)

What is inside this new hide? Was it the same as in the old hide?


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## marcy4hope (Dec 3, 2012)

it's the same as the old hide. just substrate in it. i use coco coir. the cage looks pretty wet because the humidifier was just on when i took the photo. it dries out some in between running.


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## marcy4hope (Dec 5, 2012)

i finally got him in his new, much larger enclosure today. i'll see if the added room helps him get a little more exercise and changes his eating habits any. if not, then we'll be heading to a vet soon to get xrays and just see what's going on. he's still "going" pretty decent, not every day, but every other day. i'm keeping up the gatorade/pumpkin soaks, as well as a "rinse" soak with just warm water. he's gotten to where he loves these soaks and really relaxes for a long time in them. he's been soaking a minimum of an hour now each evening. i give him a short soak in the morning in just plain water. urates are a little thicker than normal. i haven't actually seen him drink anything for a really long time. but, they are not gritty, so i'm not concerned about that. he's never had gritty urates in the year i've had him and has rarely passed urates that i could actually see, but this now is something i can see, sort of stringy white. is this okay?


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## Tom (Dec 5, 2012)

The increasingly thicker urates, despite LOTS of soaking might be a clue. I have never used Gatoraide for this and wonder if it has something to do with this. Maybe try just plain water for a while. Also very odd that he's not eating, but still pooping. If nothing goes in, nothing can keep coming out. At least not after a little while...

I don't know what's going on with your little man. Just throwing out some observations...


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## LuckysGirl007 (Dec 5, 2012)

Don't know if this means or helps any buy as far as the Gatorade....I moved to AZ when I was 18 from PA. My Aunt and Uncle told me to always have WATER with me and drink a lot. So, I decided Gatorade would be good. Well, that spring at age 19 I had my first kidney stone. I'm not saying it was from so much Gatorade for sure but I quite drinking it so much. I don't know if it could do the same to torts kidneys...just a thought.


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## marcy4hope (Dec 5, 2012)

thanks a lot for that, luckysgirl. i will cut out the gatorade and see how things go. he had this problem before he started the gatorade, but i certainly will stop doing that. i called the vet a 1/2 hour from me and if he's not better soon, i'll take him over there for an xray and fecal. will cost $92. i didn't think that was too bad for my area, since i work for a vet myself, but we don't have xray equipment and only work on large animals.


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## reticguy76 (Dec 5, 2012)

Gatorade has tons of sugar, not usually in agreement with desert type torts

Also, may wanna send out a fecal panel and reptilian panel to the lab and have acutal pathologists look at the fecal smears and blood smears to rule any microspcopic micr-organisms or odd looking blood cells out


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## lovelyrosepetal (Dec 6, 2012)

Any new information to share with us about what is going on? Hoping for the best and good luck.


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## marcy4hope (Dec 6, 2012)

lovelyrosepetal said:


> Any new information to share with us about what is going on? Hoping for the best and good luck.



no new info except that i made a vet appointment for next monday. couldn't get him in any earlier than that. he's in the new enclosure and i'm still soaking in plain water in the mornings and pumpkin water in the evenings. he's still pooing, but a lot less than he was before since he's not eating. haven't seen any pee for the last two days, but in the pumpkin soak it'd be harder to tell if he did.


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## sibi (Dec 6, 2012)

Sorry to hear that your tort is having this problem. The only thing I see in your enclosure that I think your tort may not like is his hide. He can still see the slightest light at night. Can your husband build a wooden hide? Or, can u drape it to block out light. Also, have u noticed if your tort eats small stones outside? Is he straining when he poops or pees?


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## marcy4hope (Dec 8, 2012)

so excited. today, louis finally ate on his own!! actually, i think he ate on his own on friday too. i came home from work friday night and saw lettuce stuck to both sides of his mouth. so, i'm sure he ate something, although not much, as there was still a pile of lettuce left. but, this morning, he ate all of his lettuce (spring mix) and a little mazuri. the lettuce also had cactus chopped up in it. so excited. i still have a vet appt schedule for monday evening. unless i see him poop, pee and eat more, i'll keep the appointment. i haven't seen him pee for a few days now and that concerns me that he might have a stone.


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## sibi (Dec 8, 2012)

Well, x-rays will tell u more. Hope it's something that can be remedied.


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## marcy4hope (Dec 10, 2012)

well, we are off to the vet in another hour and we'll see what xrays show. hoping he'll poop on the way there in the car so i'll have something for them to do a fecal. he hasn't gone since friday morning, and i figured that would be too old to keep for a fecal so got rid of it.

when i was ordering vet supplies today at the office, i was also told about the product "critical care", so i ordered a package and it will be here tomorrow. will see what the reptile vet says about using it today. anyone used "critical care" before?


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## Tom (Dec 10, 2012)

My wife has been syringe feeding that to her 19 year old geriatric green iguana for several years now...


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## Zabbi0 (Dec 10, 2012)

marcy4hope said:


> tonight, just for good measure, when i soaked him, i mixed pureed pumpkin, gatorade and water together. it was 1/2 a bottle of gatorade, 1/2 a can of pumpkin and then i filled the rest of the sink with water..



I have never in my life heard of soaking torts like this? What does soaking in stuff other than water do?

Also- do you really need a humidifier and all that stuff in an enclosure if you live in an incredibly humid place to begin with or should a heat lamp suffice ?


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## Tony the tank (Dec 10, 2012)

Im from the northeast ..Not sure how this makes a difference but pretty much every yr around this time all my adult sulcatas really slow down on there eating quite a bit.(Funny thing is the temps in there enclosure doesn't fluctuate much a steady 88*F yr round ..I think they can sense the change of season)..But i have also noticed if the temps in the enclosure by chance goes over 90*F they head into there hides and stay there until mid afternoon or until the temps drop a bit....


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## sibi (Dec 10, 2012)

The soaks not only stimulate torts to poop and pee, but torts absorb water while soaking. As such, mixing squash baby food in their soaks helps them absorb nutrients. This is especially important when the sully isn't eating. Also, sulcatas need high humidity in their enclosure to prevent pyramiding. Even if you live in a place w/lots of humidity, often people use air conditioning which will suck the humidity right out of the enclosure. It's your decision; but, if your sulcata starts pyramiding, I'd use a humidifier. Also, look at Tom's threads for proper care of sulcatas. Btw, I wouldn't use Gatorade in the soaks, just baby food.


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## Zabbi0 (Dec 10, 2012)

sibi said:


> Also, look at Tom's threads for proper care of ..



Looking for Tom's links..?


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## marcy4hope (Dec 10, 2012)

Zabbi0 said:


> sibi said:
> 
> 
> > Also, look at Tom's threads for proper care of ..
> ...


tom had posted right above your last post. check the signature under his name. and check here: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-18448.html#axzz1bv5qbbcz

well - we got back from the vet. fecal was fine. but, the xray showed 4 bladder stones. the good thing was that on the way there, the drive caused him to give me a fecal sample.  he also peed a ton and the last of it was a bunch of urates. that was a first for him to ever pee solid urates.

vet said to continue with what i was doing. the stones weren't too big, so he said to add some vitamin A supplement and keep up with soaking. as long as louis starts eating (which he did start a little over the weekend) then he will re-xray him in 2-3 months and see how things are progressing.

so, i will be researching a lot more here on the forum about things to do for the bladder stones, other than what i'm already doing. i'll appreciate anymore suggestions. at least, i was really happy to see that he's not impacted. the stones were in a location where the vet said he's definitely still able to go and his bowels were not impacted at all. so, that makes me feel better. and to top it off, the entire visit only cost $60. i was happy with that.


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