# don't ask if you wont take the advice



## Heather H (Jan 27, 2015)

I have been reading and re-reading so many threads. why do people ask for advice if they are not willing to change or accept the advice. I for one listen to all the advice. You guys are so much more experienced. So people if you don't take the advice offered then I wish the best of luck to you and your tort or turtle. Sorry had to vent a bit.


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## G-stars (Jan 27, 2015)

A lot of time it's the first time they have heard the new information. Many people think it's ok to keep most tortoises dry because that information has been around much longer than the wet method.


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## wellington (Jan 27, 2015)

Thank you for saying it and it's been something that we have had to put up with since way before I joined. Unfortunately, some people just have to be right no matter what and even at the expense of their tortoise.


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## mike taylor (Jan 27, 2015)

Thank you! If you are asking it is because you don't know . If someone tells you to do it with 20 years of keeping tortoises then do it . Because they have tried everything you are trying and it didn't work .


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## jaizei (Jan 27, 2015)

LOL


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## Heather H (Jan 27, 2015)

I know if i didn't listen Tuxy would have suffered more than he did.


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## Heather H (Jan 27, 2015)

im actually starting to get defensive of you guys. Like when someone says, but my vet said that is wrong or I read somewhere else that you do it this way. But that is what he came with. I want to yell at the person and tell them to listen to you guys. but I bite my tongue. maybe I shouldn't anymore.


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## Jodie (Jan 27, 2015)

I certainly agree with this thread, but have to admit in the beginning it was difficult to accept everything i thought i knew was wrong. I had gotten bad info from the reptile store and a vet. It helped that most here are willing to explain why. Some are never going to accept they are wrong because doing it right is often a lot harder. Seperate enclosures for example.


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## Mommabear (Jan 27, 2015)

I agree with op but I don't know if they mean to be so stubborn. It's difficult to change a way you have been taught. Especially if it is advice you received from someone you thought was a professional.

When my son was a baby pediatricians told you to always keep babies on their tummy. A couple years later it switched to their side and a bunch of companies made a mint on that pillow that propped the baby. Then switched to their back, and now I think it is tummy again. Everyone claims to be experts but it always changes. This is in just 25-30 yrs.

After re-reading advice most seem to come around once they understand it. Having to learn everything suddenly last October I was lucky I was directed here as the first place.


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## wellington (Jan 27, 2015)

Heather Hilliard said:


> im actually starting to get defensive of you guys. Like when someone says, but my vet said that is wrong or I read somewhere else that you do it this way. But that is what he came with. I want to yell at the person and tell them to listen to you guys. but I bite my tongue. maybe I shouldn't anymore.



The best you can do is stay calm and nice and give the correct info. Some will take it willingly right away, some will not. Eventually, if they stay around long enough, they will probably change their ways, they just might not admit they were wrong.
Have to remember, they have no idea at first if the advie here is right or wrong either. We just expect them to take our word for it. Once they stick around a little, look at more threads, see more pictures, they will figure out this forum as the right info and that there are different ways to accomplish the same thing.


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## Tom (Jan 27, 2015)

One problem is that most of the tortoise world, vets, books, "experts", breeders, etc.. All still do it the old dry way. Or perhaps we should more accurately define it as the "overly dry, with low humidity in the 10-30% range, and a lack of hydration" way.

Then they come here and some guy or gal tells them to do the total opposite of _everything_ they've ever been told about tortoises. Yes they were told the wrong stuff, but how do they know that at first? Believe me, I have been uphill battling this for years.

Just take a deep breath and explain it again and again and again... Remember that its for the good of the tortoise and almost everyone on both sides of the issue has the best of intentions.


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## mike taylor (Jan 27, 2015)

The post I love the most ....... and I've made some myself are the ones you think are great ideas and money savers get shut down! Haha like my cheap turtle food idea dead minnows from bait shop shut down! I really love the ones about how sulcatas need to be dry and we shut them down with all our smooth healthy torts . I like the ones where Tom shuts them down then they cussed at him . It makes me laugh . The funny part is a week down the road mr right has changed everything he was doing . An never says thanks Tom . Haha


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## Turtlepete (Jan 27, 2015)

Tom said:


> One problem is that most of the tortoise world, vets, books, "experts", breeders, etc.. All still do it the old dry way. Or perhaps we should more accurately define it as the "overly dry, with low humidity in the 10-30% range, and a lack of hydration" way.



Moisture and humidity aren't the only aspects they had wrong though. Shoot, even when I was just learning, 10 years ago books and vets recommended dog and cat food!


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## Heather H (Jan 27, 2015)

Well if I haven't said it enough THANK YOU everyone.......


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## mike taylor (Jan 27, 2015)

No problem thats what we do . We help eachother even if it's just to vent . These are one of my favorite threads. They don't happen often . I've been call racist by two different poeple out in the open forum at two different times . Tom has been called everything under the sun . Yvonne has made some people mad . This is what happens when you put a group of people together . No body is going to get along with everybody . I like this forum no matter how [email protected] and @yvonne are . Haha


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## jaizei (Jan 27, 2015)

Turtlepete said:


> Moisture and humidity aren't the only aspects they had wrong though. Shoot, even when I was just learning, 10 years ago books and vets recommended dog and cat food!



Admittedly, redfoots are of little interest to me but I thought that high quality cat food was still on the menu in appropriate amounts. 


Think of husbandry as a pendulum, popular opinion seems to go from from extreme to the other. Over correction if you will. It was iceberg and dog/cat food (or hamburger), then nothing but grass & grazing and now we're back to a point that greens are okay again. And Mazuri is acceptable nowadays too.


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## Turtlepete (Jan 27, 2015)

jaizei said:


> Admittedly, redfoots are of little interest to me but I thought that high quality cat food was still on the menu in appropriate amounts.
> 
> 
> Think of husbandry as a pendulum, popular opinion seems to go from from extreme to the other. Over correction if you will. It was iceberg and dog/cat food (or hamburger), then nothing but grass & grazing and now we're back to a point that greens are okay again. And Mazuri is acceptable nowadays too.



You got me there. You can give it in moderation to satisfy the meat protein needs of reds. But it used to be recommended as a full diet .

I agree. Mazuri used to be demonized as well.


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## terryo (Jan 27, 2015)

I really don't think there is a right way or a wrong way. People try out different things and then do what works for them. That is why I always say...That's just what I do and what works for me. I always feed my Cherry Heads and my Box turtles high quality ground venison, dog food. It has always worked for me and I never had a problem. Of course I mix it with greens, veggies and fruit, but usually start out babies with just the dog food. I would never tell anyone to do this, but I've been doing it for years and years with great results....just what I do.


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## Turtlepete (Jan 27, 2015)

terryo said:


> I really don't think there is a right way or a wrong way. People try out different things and then do what works for them. That is why I always say...That's just what I do and what works for me. I always feed my Cherry Heads and my Box turtles high quality ground venison, dog food. It has always worked for me and I never had a problem. Of course I mix it with greens, veggies and fruit, but usually start out babies with just the dog food. I would never tell anyone to do this, but I've been doing it for years and years with great results....just what I do.



Terryo, I might be misunderstanding you, but do you mean you start red foot hatchlings as well on ground dog food and venison? I can picture this for boxies easy. If you did this for red foots though, it would be interesting to say the least. I've seen your pics of Pio, your cherry, and he's in marvelous shape. Is that how you started him?


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## terryo (Jan 27, 2015)

No, my Cherries only got protein once every two weeks and starting at age 6 months. Before that they got no protein. Every two weeks I will mix the ground venison with greens, veggies and fruit, chopped up in very small pieces and then add the ground venison. They loved it. Outside they found their own protein ...worms slugs etc, but still got the ground venison every two weeks. This is Solo eating the mixed meal with the venison.


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## Turtlepete (Jan 27, 2015)

terryo said:


> No, my Cherries only got protein once every two weeks and starting at age 6 months. Before that they got no protein. Every two weeks I will mix the ground venison with greens, veggies and fruit, chopped up in very small pieces and then add the ground venison. They loved it. Outside they found their own protein ...worms slugs etc, but still got the ground venison every two weeks.



Oh, I see. I remembered hearing speculation about how young red's in the wild may perhaps consume a lot of meat protein, in the form of insects and such. So it roused my curiosity . I think one thing I miss doing too much with the young I produce is meat protein. They always have great growth anyways, though .


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## TortsNTurtles (Jan 27, 2015)

Solo is beautiful!


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## Tom (Jan 27, 2015)

Turtlepete said:


> I agree. Mazuri used to be demonized as well.



HA! I used to be one of those demonizers. I abhor ignorance. Especially my own.


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## Tom (Jan 27, 2015)

Turtlepete said:


> Moisture and humidity aren't the only aspects they had wrong though. Shoot, even when I was just learning, 10 years ago books and vets recommended dog and cat food!



This is true my friend.

@Jacqui used to like to argue with just about everything I said in years past. I'd make an overly general statement, and she liked to come along and point out every obscure possible exception to my general statement. Arguments would ensue. Well one time I was complaining in general about the "old style" of tortoise keeping and she came along and very accurately and correctly pointed out some of the GOOD things about the old style of keeping. She was completely right. Not all of it was bad. Due to her efforts, and the efforts of quite a few who were not as nice as Ms. Jacqui (You know, the ones that Mike is talking about...) I've been taught to word my sweeping generalities more carefully, as I did in my first post on this thread that you just quoted.


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## weldorNate (Jan 27, 2015)

When I got my first tortoise I was looking for info on them and read u didn't need to provide water n there enclosure and I didn't take that info cause that to me was like telling me that I shouldn't need water either was my thoughts. I have owned many pets and always provided food and water.


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## Tom (Jan 27, 2015)

terryo said:


> I really don't think there is a right way or a wrong way. People try out different things and then do what works for them. That is why I always say...That's just what I do and what works for me.



Many people express this sentiment, or something similar and I strongly disagree. There most certainly _IS_ a wrong way. There are lots of wrong ways. Example: Keeping a sulcata hatchling in a 10 gallon tank on rabbit pellets with no water bowl, once a week soaks, with a red bulb on 24/7, and feeding it nothing but grocery store greens is _completely_ wrong. Everything about that way is a wrong way.

I think there is also a right way. This would be the way that produces the "best" results. For example: I did an experiment with a bunch of clutch mates raising one group one way and another group another way. Without boring you with a million details, one way was was "better". It produced "better" results. I would call this the "right" way to do it.

Now I will grant you there there are multiple right ways to do many things in many cases. We've all seen many examples of this. YOUR enclosures, for example, are the "right" way to house redfoots. Other people have good enclosures too, but yours are exceptionally good.

And after all that, I miss your posts terribly and I'm glad to see your name again!


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## Zeko (Jan 27, 2015)

There needs to be an "agreement" upon account creation that states:

"I shall not argue when given advice."

"I shall not be defensive when told I sucked at raising Mr. bumpy."


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## Heather H (Jan 27, 2015)

Lol. Ok honestly you guys scared me the first day and I cried  I had sooooooo many things wrong.


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## Turtlepete (Jan 27, 2015)

Zeko said:


> There needs to be an "agreement" upon account creation that states:
> 
> "I shall not argue when given advice."
> 
> "I shall not be defensive when told I sucked at raising Mr. bumpy."



You just have to hope people show up here with a genuine interest in the best care for their animal's, and a willingness to change their ways, and an open mind to understand that they aren't doing things right. Sometimes, you get somebody stuck in their ways that refuses to consider new information.


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## leigti (Jan 27, 2015)

Before I got my tortoise and for sometime after I read every website and book I could find on the topic of raising Russian tortoises. lots of conflicting information, very confusing to somebody that knew absolutely nothing about tortoises. we are taught that if you want to know something you go to the "experts" which in a perfect world would be the pet store employees and veterinarians. And haven't we all been told to be very cautious about what we read on the Internet? or maybe that is just my generation  either way when you are so ignorant on a topic how do you know what is good advice and what is bad advice? I did figure out that this was the best source for information. but it did take a little bit. Four instance, it took me six months before I replaced my coil lightbulb. I hate to admit that but it is true. My outdoor enclosure was good from the beginning but my indoor enclosure needed help. 
It is such a steep learning curve at the beginning, and hearing that everything you did was totally wrong can be very discouraging. i'm glad I did make a lot of changes before I made my first post  I would have been ripped apart, mostly kindly. I don't take anybody's advice as gospel, sometimes I have to ponder on it a little bit. And I think that unless there is a major safety issue, that is okay. as long as The pondering doesn't last long. if we completely overwhelm new members they will not come back, and the tortoises will pay the price.


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## stojanovski92113 (Jan 27, 2015)

I'm not sure why...but I won't feed dog or cat food to my tortoises. It took me nearly 6 years before I would feed any type of pellet food. I guess I have it stuck in my head that I know what I'm feeding my tortoises when it comes to greens, fruit, plants, chicken, hard boiled eggs, & mushrooms. How can you sell me on dog & cat food ? It's obviously safe for mammals, but I'm hesitant to give it to my Redfoots. I know many members feed it to their tortoises. I guess it's just personal preference. I will say that I have read numerous times about over feeding & too much protein will cause pyramding in tortoises back in 2008 when I first got my redfood. But my tortoises are pyramided, it was the lack of humidity all along  I've learned SO much from this forum. I don't post a lot but I sure do read a lot of threads and learn more everyday. I'm most definitely willing to listen & change my ways. Like I said, I'm just not sold on the dog/cat food, but would love input from others.


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## wellington (Jan 27, 2015)

Heather Hilliard said:


> Lol. Ok honestly you guys scared me the first day and I cried  I had sooooooo many things wrong.


Heck, most of these people still scare me


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## leigti (Jan 27, 2015)

I think we also need to keep in mind that for some people the Internet is literally there only form of information. they have no "real person" to talk to or they don't know anybody with a tortoise so they haven't seen a correct enclosure or proper care. Assuming they have seen any care at all. Or maybe they do know somebody with the tortoise but that person is not caring for them correctly, it is still the only real first-hand experience they have. there's only so much that can come across in pictures and print. I think one great aspect of this forum that gets ignored is that people can actually meet other people carrying for tortoises correctly. I met a member of the forum who came to my house and helped me with my box turtle. It meant so much it was so helpful. I was reassured that I was doing things right.


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## pepsiandjac (Jan 27, 2015)

I agree. Mazuri used to be demonized as well.[/QUOTE]
it still is demonized on certain UK sites


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## bouaboua (Jan 27, 2015)

I learn lots things here in the forum and all my torts are benefit from what I learned here. 

I do listen.....


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## Rick's Sullivan (Jan 27, 2015)

I've read a lot of posts here as well and I've seen some really nice people who just want to share and help animals, but I've also seen a lot of posturing both from people asking questions and commenters. Sometimes I've seen people who are posing a question when really they are just hoping for praise and for the forum to stop and congratulate them for doing such a great job. When that doesn't happen they get pissed. I've also seen it the other way where someone is genuinely asking a question or stating how they feel and a commenter goes off on their post in a way that shows the commenter is clearly trying to get as many forum members to click the "like" button as possible. It's interesting to me how many egos need stroking when this is basically anonymous.


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## Tom (Jan 27, 2015)

Heather Hilliard said:


> Lol. Ok honestly you guys scared me the first day and I cried  I had sooooooo many things wrong.



You are an excellent person to ask then.

I realize the answer can be infinitely different because of the variety of people, situations and moods, BUT...

When someone new comes along and we can clearly see a lot of things wrong, not personal preference things like coco coir vs. cypress mulch, but obvious wrong things like rabbit pellet substrate, or a 20 gallon tank for an 11" tortoise, or a plate of fruit in front of a russian, or a coil bulb over a tortoise that won't eat, hides all day and rubs its eyes, etc... What are we to do? Do just play nice and say hi and try to ease in to the problems later? Or do we say welcome, no offense, but that bulb is burning your tortoises eyes?

This is a tough one. I tend to be blunt in an effort to help the tortoise ASAP. Then Yvonne comes along and combines words so melodically that I feel like an uncouth heathen in comparison.

I can still remember what it was to be a noob before I had any personal experience of my own. I soaked up info like a sponge. Right and wrong info alike. I read every book and magazine, went to every reptile show and talked to experts and listened to presentations, I tried to learn as much as I could from every where. There was no internet back then. No cell phones either. I try to envision what it would have been like for me to turn on the magic box and read posts and care sheets from many experienced keepers from all over the country and the world. I don't know what I would have done. Who to believe. 

I find myself with this dilemma every once in a while to this day. For example: I still after all these years cannot find a credible answer for what to coat the inside of a closed chamber with. I've heard all sorts of answers, but I've seen cause to refute every answer too. I've had to take people's answer, do my own internet research, drawn upon whatever previous experience I can think of and make a best guess. Now time will tell. After all this time and effort, I am still learning by trial and error. Will using Drylok be an error? I'll know in a few months.


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## Heather H (Jan 27, 2015)

Tom said:


> You are an excellent person to ask then.
> 
> I realize the answer can be infinitely different because of the variety of people, situations and moods, BUT...
> 
> ...


I'm glad you guys correct and teach. I know now how to get things right next time. Just have to decide who is right for me. A hatching? A yearling Or an adult?and I will bug you guys until it's perfect


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## leigti (Jan 27, 2015)

Rick's Sullivan said:


> I've read a lot of posts here as well and I've seen some really nice people who just want to share and help animals, but I've also seen a lot of posturing both from people asking questions and commenters. Sometimes I've seen people who are posing a question when really they are just hoping for praise and for the forum to stop and congratulate them for doing such a great job. When that doesn't happen they get pissed. I've also seen it the other way where someone is genuinely asking a question or stating how they feel and a commenter goes off on their post in a way that shows the commenter is clearly trying to get as many forum members to click the "like" button as possible. It's interesting to me how many egos need stroking when this is basically anonymous.


I haven't really seen much of this. I have seen bickering between members, and sometimes it seems like some posts are completely ignored for some unknown reason. but over all I think it is a relatively peaceful forum. I haven't seen a lot of games played here which is nice.


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## Tom (Jan 27, 2015)

leigti said:


> I haven't really seen much of this. I have seen bickering between members, and sometimes it seems like some posts are completely ignored for some unknown reason. but over all I think it is a relatively peaceful forum. I haven't seen a lot of games played here which is nice.



I always wonder who people are talking about with vague things like Rick's post. Seems like an awful lot of speculation to me. Or maybe mind reading. Perhaps I'm paranoid, or perhaps once bitten twice shy, but I usually think these people are talking about me.

And just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me...


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## leigti (Jan 27, 2015)

Tom said:


> You are an excellent person to ask then.
> 
> I realize the answer can be infinitely different because of the variety of people, situations and moods, BUT...
> 
> ...


Ahhh, the time before Internet weren't those the days  you said you did a lot of research, talk to a lot of people. This took time. You got a lot of information but you probably got it over a pretty big space of time comparatively. now a person can sit down and get more information in one hour reading through this forum then I bet you could get in a week or two back then. this may be some of the problem. Too much information too quickly, conflicting information, and no time to try to figure it out and think about it on your own.


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## dmmj (Jan 27, 2015)

I'm right you're all wrong, deal with it.
Most come here to learn, a few just want the bad advice re-enforced, go figure.


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## leigti (Jan 27, 2015)

Tom said:


> I always wonder who people are talking about with vague things like Rick's post. Seems like an awful lot of speculation to me. Or maybe mind reading. Perhaps I'm paranoid, or perhaps once bitten twice shy, but I usually think these people are talking about me.
> 
> And just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me...


I figure he's probably talking about me too  if so then I guess I'm sorry. and people aren't out to get me either.


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## Heather H (Jan 28, 2015)

Yes Tom it's about you. Lol j/k


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## Yellow Turtle01 (Jan 28, 2015)

I'll laugh a little 
I try not to become involved in many of the threads like this/that. Sometime somebody's going to say 'if you have turtle poo, fling it now' and then it gets rather messy.


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## HotdogKnight (Jan 28, 2015)

It's almost helpful to lurker-newbies (like moi) when someone new introduces themselves and they don't quite have everything set up right. Not only can we try and help them but we can test our knowledge by seeing if we can spot what's not quite right, like a tort spot the difference. I enjoy it when someone new appears (so many new people a day, I can't believe how popular this site is) because I can go "ooh I wonder how they're starting out".


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## Rick's Sullivan (Jan 28, 2015)

Tom said:


> I always wonder who people are talking about with vague things like Rick's post. Seems like an awful lot of speculation to me. Or maybe mind reading. Perhaps I'm paranoid, or perhaps once bitten twice shy, but I usually think these people are talking about me.
> 
> And just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me...





leigti said:


> I haven't really seen much of this. I have seen bickering between members, and sometimes it seems like some posts are completely ignored for some unknown reason. but over all I think it is a relatively peaceful forum. I haven't seen a lot of games played here which is nice.



Tom, hey buddy, your ears were burning, because you actually WERE on my mind a little, but it was the part about "there are people here who are nice, want to share, and help animals." I read your care sheets before I joined this forum and was trying to convince my sully's previous owner about the way he was mistreating this animal. Others that stand out to me in this group of helpful people are Yvonne G, Tortadise, Madkins, and a few others that I really enjoy reading and have learned a lot from. Liegt, sorry I haven't come across much of your stuff yet. I'll keep an eye out for you and say "hello." By the way, if you see a guy wearing sunglasses behind your bushes---um....he isn't me, that's another guy who looks just like me!


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## leigti (Jan 28, 2015)

Rick's Sullivan said:


> Tom, hey buddy, your ears were burning, because you actually WERE on my mind a little, but it was the part about "there are people here who are nice, want to share, and help animals." I read your care sheets before I joined this forum and was trying to convince my sully's previous owner about the way he was mistreating this animal. Others that stand out to me in this group of helpful people are Yvonne G, Tortadise, Madkins, and a few others that I really enjoy reading and have learned a lot from. Liegt, sorry I haven't come across much of your stuff yet. I'll keep an eye out for you and say "hello." By the way, if you see a guy wearing sunglasses behind your bushes---um....he isn't me, that's another guy who looks just like me!


Yikes!


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## Jacqui (Jan 28, 2015)

terryo said:


> I really don't think there is a right way or a wrong way. People try out different things and then do what works for them. That is why I always say...That's just what I do and what works for me. I always feed my Cherry Heads and my Box turtles high quality ground venison, dog food. It has always worked for me and I never had a problem. Of course I mix it with greens, veggies and fruit, but usually start out babies with just the dog food. I would never tell anyone to do this, but I've been doing it for years and years with great results....just what I do.



I so agree with you on there is no right or wrong way to do things. It all depends on what your animals needs, where you live, and what all you do. One thing considered "wrong" may be right, because of the other things you do along with that supposed wrong thing.


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## Jacqui (Jan 28, 2015)

Tom said:


> This is true my friend.
> 
> @Jacqui used to like to argue with just about everything I said in years past. I'd make an overly general statement, and she liked to come along and point out every obscure possible exception to my general statement. Arguments would ensue. Well one time I was complaining in general about the "old style" of tortoise keeping and she came along and very accurately and correctly pointed out some of the GOOD things about the old style of keeping. She was completely right. Not all of it was bad. Due to her efforts, and the efforts of quite a few who were not as nice as Ms. Jacqui (You know, the ones that Mike is talking about...) I've been taught to word my sweeping generalities more carefully, as I did in my first post on this thread that you just quoted.



Obscure???? Oh Tom, you are so funny.  Me nice...ummm when was that?


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## Tom (Jan 28, 2015)

Jacqui said:


> Obscure???? Oh Tom, you are so funny.  Me nice...ummm when was that?



Yes! OBSCURE. For example about the "Don't keep tortoises in pairs" thing. You posted about your specific subspecies of very special hingeback tortoises that were living as a pair and doing okay. Of all the keepers and all the tortoises associated with this this forum, or even tortoise keeping at large, what percentage do you think are of that subspecies of hingeback? I can guarantee that its far less than one percent when you consider the millions of sulcatas, russians, greeks, hermanns, CDTs, and all the other species out there. So yes, I consider that an "obscure" exception to a very good general rule.

And you've been nice lots of times. Me too, on occasion.


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## Jacqui (Jan 28, 2015)

Tom said:


> Yes! OBSCURE. For example about the "Don't keep tortoises in pairs" thing. You posted about your specific subspecies of very special hingeback tortoises that were living as a pair and doing okay. Of all the keepers and all the tortoises associated with this this forum, or even tortoise keeping at large, what percentage do you think are of that subspecies of hingeback? I can guarantee that its far less than one percent when you consider the millions of sulcatas, russians, greeks, hermanns, CDTs, and all the other species out there. So yes, I consider that an "obscure" exception to a very good general rule.
> 
> And you've been nice lots of times. Me too, on occasion.



Tom, I keep many species together in pairs, not just my hingebacks. I have even kept Russians in a pair situation with no problems.  I have never had two CDTs at one time, so I haven't tried them.


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## Tom (Jan 28, 2015)

Jacqui said:


> Tom, I keep many species together in pairs, not just my hingebacks. I have even kept Russians in a pair situation with no problems.  I have never had two CDTs at one time, so I haven't tried them.



Yes yes, I know... You and all your "exceptional" tortoises...


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## Jacqui (Jan 28, 2015)

Tom said:


> Yes yes, I know... You and all your "exceptional" tortoises...



 Actually mine are just normal run of the mill tortoises. This is my last post on this subject in this thread to you. Not going to get into to it. I am back to ignoring your posts...


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## terryo (Jan 31, 2015)

Jacqui said:


> I so agree with you on there is no right or wrong way to do things. It all depends on what your animals needs, where you live, and what all you do. One thing considered "wrong" may be right, because of the other things you do along with that supposed wrong thing.


Absolutely! People living in ...for instance, Arizona, would not take care of their Box Turtles the same way I would. I live on an Island where it is always hot and very humid in the Summer. I never have to mist my gardens, unless it's extremely hot. I do water my plants every other day. Someone in Arizona would have to water down their box turtles and gardens much more than I would. So if you read a care sheet for box turtles, and they say water down your box turtles ever day, and I did, I would have a mud garden. Also my turtle garden is loaded with slugs and worms and other buggie things, so I always see them eating something. I don't think a turtle living in a dry climate would have access to all that free range protein.
For the most part, my box turtles can take care of themselves in their garden if I go away for a week or more. Someone in a drier climate couldn't leave theirs to fend for themselves that long....I don't think.
My house is always cold. I don't like heat so in the Winter my house is in the high 60's. That's why I keep heat emitters on my turtles and tortoises that are inside for the Winter. In the Summer I keep the air conditioner on very high...again, too cold for any turtle or tortoise inside, so the heat emitters are on year round in my house.
So to me I'd have to throw any care sheet out the window. I have to use my own judgement on the care of my animals. No right way or wrong way.


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## Mavrik (Jan 31, 2015)

Lurking has its uses, like when you stumble upon threads like this. 
That being said, I sometimes wonder, if people say something and it is taken as an argument or argumentative tone, when really the reader is just inferring what they want from the plain text. It can go both ways I guess.

I know I am one of those people who, when presented with advice, will more than likely respond with the "But I was told..." This is not meant to argue with the adviser, particularly when *I* was the one who asked the question, but more of an acknowledgement of what I am reading and my explanation of why I am doing it this way. 

This is just me personally though, so I can't speak for other people. In defense of the newbies like myself, there are some responses from people who, though they may think they are trying to be helpful and giving open advice, come across as condescending and argumentative. That is the part that irks me, when I ask a question politely and courteously and in well-written language, and I am attacked from the get-go.

And then there are people who just don't know how to take advice, whether well meant or condescending, and get all butt-hurt because you call them out on something that is generally and understandably wrong.


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## FLINTUS (Feb 1, 2015)

Tom said:


> Yes! OBSCURE. For example about the "Don't keep tortoises in pairs" thing. You posted about your specific subspecies of very special hingeback tortoises that were living as a pair and doing okay. Of all the keepers and all the tortoises associated with this this forum, or even tortoise keeping at large, what percentage do you think are of that subspecies of hingeback? I can guarantee that its far less than one percent when you consider the millions of sulcatas, russians, greeks, hermanns, CDTs, and all the other species out there. So yes, I consider that an "obscure" exception to a very good general rule.
> 
> And you've been nice lots of times. Me too, on occasion.


In fairness, Jacqui is right about most of the kinixys genus. Carbonaria have also had success in pairs, as have emys, and radiata.


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## FLINTUS (Feb 1, 2015)

Tom said:


> Many people express this sentiment, or something similar and I strongly disagree. There most certainly _IS_ a wrong way. There are lots of wrong ways. Example: Keeping a sulcata hatchling in a 10 gallon tank on rabbit pellets with no water bowl, once a week soaks, with a red bulb on 24/7, and feeding it nothing but grocery store greens is _completely_ wrong. Everything about that way is a wrong way.
> 
> I think there is also a right way. This would be the way that produces the "best" results. For example: I did an experiment with a bunch of clutch mates raising one group one way and another group another way. Without boring you with a million details, one way was was "better". It produced "better" results. I would call this the "right" way to do it.
> 
> ...


This is an interesting one. I don't believe that 'anything can work' idea, and as above, your example would, IMO, be wrong.
However, without going into specific details, there is no one 'right way'. For red foots, as an example, there are about 5 main ways which have worked. And similar goes for pardalis as well, even if you deny that a lower humidity-not extremely low, but 50-60%- has produced good results with other good elements of care. And as you know, the owner's location has a huge impact, as well as the origin of the tortoise. I also believe that 'best' is a very subjective term. There are some ways to judge 'good' care, e.g. no pyramiding, beak, nails, no shell rot etc., but there are also a number of internal factors which are rarely looked at on this forum, inc. shell density, and the thickness in general of the keratin. Without going in to details, as we've talked about before, the few studies that have been done on tortoises kept pretty much constantly wet have revealed much denser keratin, which MAY cause problems for the internal organs. The problem is is that v.few owners will have studies such as this done, and because there's only been a few studies on this, the evidence is not reliable enough to take as 'fact', not least because we don't know if there is a negative effect as a result. But, I will say this: To be safe, I would always offer a drying off zone in the enclosure, even for deep forest lying species.


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## Zeko (Feb 1, 2015)

Keeping tortoises in pairs is a gamble. 
Some people like to gamble. 
Some people think they will win if they gamble long term. 
Statistics says they do not.


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## Turtlepete (Feb 1, 2015)

FLINTUS said:


> There are some ways to judge 'good' care, e.g. no pyramiding, beak, nails, no shell rot etc., but there are also a number of internal factors which are rarely looked at on this forum, inc. shell density, and the thickness in general of the keratin. Without going in to details, as we've talked about before, the few studies that have been done on tortoises kept pretty much constantly wet have revealed much denser keratin, which MAY cause problems for the internal organs.



I don't believe this "higher moisture = 'more dense', thicker keratin" thing. Unless red's are an exception (no biological reason they should be), I have a WC female with a thicker and denser shell than even the CB animals I have raised from hatchlings in very moist conditions.

What are the aforementioned "5 main different ways" of raising red foots? A certain diet is going to produce the best results. A certain habitat (warm, high humidity) is going to produce the best results. You can't get away without warmth and humidity and you aren't going to raise them on grass like a sulcata, so I really can't think of any other way of doing it. Of course both habitat and diet can be slightly stretched one way or the other; varying food items offered to make up the diet, different substrates, but the overall guidelines are the same.


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## FLINTUS (Feb 1, 2015)

Turtlepete said:


> I don't believe this "higher moisture = 'more dense', thicker keratin" thing. Unless red's are an exception (no biological reason they should be), I have a WC female with a thicker and denser shell than even the CB animals I have raised from hatchlings in very moist conditions.
> 
> What are the aforementioned "5 main different ways" of raising red foots? A certain diet is going to produce the best results. A certain habitat (warm, high humidity) is going to produce the best results. You can't get away without warmth and humidity and you aren't going to raise them on grass like a sulcata, so I really can't think of any other way of doing it. Of course both habitat and diet can be slightly stretched one way or the other; varying food items offered to make up the diet, different substrates, but the overall guidelines are the same.


Overall yes, but they can be raised in a high humidity grassland set up depending on the locality, again.
Not saying the thicker keratin is a fact, but the only studies that have been done have said this, but we need (much) more information to be conclusive on this. I don't believe that higher moisture on its own causes this, it is the lack of the shell being able to lose the moisture at some time.


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## FLINTUS (Feb 1, 2015)

Zeko said:


> Keeping tortoises in pairs is a gamble.
> Some people like to gamble.
> Some people think they will win if they gamble long term.
> Statistics says they do not.


Generally speaking yes, but since Tom mentioned kinixys, in the case of erosa and homeana, they have actually done better in pairs in terms of breeding and general behavior.


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## terryo (Feb 1, 2015)

I got a lot of backlash for the way I raised my Cherry Head's on this forum and a few others. There were some who sent me pm's agreeing with me, but I also got a few not too nice one's. Each one was raised in a glass tank with plants, high humidity, but a mostly dry substrate, and a very moist hide. They were also raised with a Box Turtle of the same age for a companion. They both turned out beautiful, smooth and healthy. I tried taking advice from experienced keepers, but became frustrated trying to get everything just right, so eventually I just did my own thing. They are my only tortoises, and I have no other experience with any tortoises, so I really couldn't give any advice based on my experience. 
Some people will ask for advice, just to make sure certain things are right for that species, but then try different things for themselves.I don't see anything wrong with that.


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## Heather H (Feb 1, 2015)

terryo said:


> I got a lot of backlash for the way I raised my Cherry Head's on this forum and a few others. There were some who sent me pm's agreeing with me, but I also got a few not too nice one's. Each one was raised in a glass tank with plants, high humidity, but a mostly dry substrate, and a very moist hide. They were also raised with a Box Turtle of the same age for a companion. They both turned out beautiful, smooth and healthy. I tried taking advice from experienced keepers, but became frustrated trying to get everything just right, so eventually I just did my own thing. They are my only tortoises, and I have no other experience with any tortoises, so I really couldn't give any advice based on my experience.
> Some people will ask for advice, just to make sure certain things are right for that species, but then try different things for themselves.I don't see anything wrong with that.


Since I'm so new I try to follow all advice.  I'm learning so much. I ask so very many questions. I know that works for some does not for everyone. Like sand, mazuri , humidity......


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## Mavrik (Feb 1, 2015)

terryo said:


> I got a lot of backlash for the way I raised my Cherry Head's on this forum and a few others. There were some who sent me pm's agreeing with me, but I also got a few not too nice one's. Each one was raised in a glass tank with plants, high humidity, but a mostly dry substrate, and a very moist hide. They were also raised with a Box Turtle of the same age for a companion. They both turned out beautiful, smooth and healthy. I tried taking advice from experienced keepers, but became frustrated trying to get everything just right, so eventually I just did my own thing. They are my only tortoises, and I have no other experience with any tortoises, so I really couldn't give any advice based on my experience.
> Some people will ask for advice, just to make sure certain things are right for that species, but then try different things for themselves.I don't see anything wrong with that.



I do not generally talk about my personal tortoise setups, for this reason. It seems that no matter how good of a job you think you did, someone is always just around the corner waiting to pounce in and say that everything you are doing is wrong. I have seen it too, that even when you ask for advice, the same person who gave you the advice is the one tearing you down. 

I'd also hate for someone to use my setup idea and then when it does not work for them they would turn around and accuse me of telling them the wrong thing. ("Well SHE said...") People will pick and choose what they want to hear or read, and then if it doesn't work out for them they will blame the sender, even if the sender clearly stated otherwise.

Call it self-preservation I guess. I have better things to do with my life (like enjoy my tortoises) than deal with that.


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## J.P. (Feb 4, 2015)

I really hated it when I asked about mixing species and told no....it was my dream to have a lawn full of assorted tortoises.... 
being told that mixing species is not possible was like hearing there is no Santa Clause for the first time....
i almost did not folow that advice....but i'm glad i did. i will settle for a lawn full of leopards...


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## Alex77 (Feb 4, 2015)

Heather Hilliard said:


> im actually starting to get defensive of you guys. Like when someone says, but my vet said that is wrong or I read somewhere else that you do it this way. But that is what he came with. I want to yell at the person and tell them to listen to you guys. but I bite my tongue. maybe I shouldn't anymore.



Perhaps it would be a good idea to have a companion thread for this one, entitled "Don't reply to requests for help unless you are very patient and/or have time to explain your logic"? I understand the frustration you feel,but please consider the other side of the story: there is a lot of contradicting info out there and it can be frustrating to constantly get told "your method is wrong". So defensive reactions will happen. 


That is why I don't reply to many of these q&a threads: patience is essential for them, and I don't have it, lol


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## terryo (Feb 4, 2015)

Again, I'm saying ...it's only what I do. I kept the box turtle with the Cherry Head, because they were both 1 month old, and came from breeders I knew and were clean. I would never take an adult box turtle and put it with an adult RF, especially if I didn't know where they came from. The two hatchlings needed the same care, high warm humidity and low light. They were fed seperately until the Box turtle was old enough to eat greens. It worked for me that's all I can say.


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## wellington (Feb 4, 2015)

terryo said:


> Again, I'm saying ...it's only what I do. I kept the box turtle with the Cherry Head, because they were both 1 month old, and came from breeders I knew and were clean. I would never take an adult box turtle and put it with an adult RF, especially if I didn't know where they came from. The two hatchlings needed the same care, high warm humidity and low light. They were fed seperately until the Box turtle was old enough to eat greens. It worked for me that's all I can say.
> 
> View attachment 117295



Terry, I think what is wrong with forums and not being able to discuss things in person is that sometimes or most of the time only half the story is told. Not on purpose, just no one wants to write a book of a post and most won't read a book of a post. The reason I believe some things should just be told no to or that it shouldn't be done, is just what you said in the beginning of this post about where you got the two from, what you knew about the breeders and that you knew they we're clean. Usually those details are left out. If every detail of the situation isn't given, sometimes or again, most of the time, newbies and oldies will take it as a way of keeping Boxies and CRF young, old, WC, CB, any combination, because the important details were left out.

(Not trying to say you did this in any original thread or post you might have done, just used this post as an example)


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## terryo (Feb 4, 2015)

wellington said:


> Terry, I think what is wrong with forums and not being able to discuss things in person is that sometimes or most of the time only half the story is told. Not on purpose, just no one wants to write a book of a post and most won't read a book of a post. The reason I believe some things should just be told no to or that it shouldn't be done, is just what you said in the beginning of this post about where you got the two from, what you knew about the breeders and that you knew they we're clean. Usually those details are left out. If every detail of the situation isn't given, sometimes or again, most of the time, newbies and oldies will take it as a way of keeping Boxies and CRF young, old, WC, CB, any combination, because the important details were left out.
> 
> (Not trying to say you did this in any original thread or post you might have done, just used this post as an example)


Absolutely! I totally agree with you.


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## Heather H (Feb 4, 2015)

I agree that if questions have more details it helps. I know I'm bad about not giving enough details. I try to do everything correct. Example I posted an enclosure pick. I have no tortoise in it. The lights I had were grow lights for the plants. So the fixtures were wrong for che or uvb. I get upset when someone says something like their tort is dehydrated then get upset when they are told they need a saucer for water . Not calling anyone out it's just an example.


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## Heather H (Feb 4, 2015)

Maybe all newbies need a mentor to help us through things. Someone we can call and talk to? Or even to private message? Just an idea.


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## Heather H (Feb 4, 2015)

terryo said:


> Again, I'm saying ...it's only what I do. I kept the box turtle with the Cherry Head, because they were both 1 month old, and came from breeders I knew and were clean. I would never take an adult box turtle and put it with an adult RF, especially if I didn't know where they came from. The two hatchlings needed the same care, high warm humidity and low light. They were fed seperately until the Box turtle was old enough to eat greens. It worked for me that's all I can say.
> 
> View attachment 117295


But it works for you. I know there are always exceptions to every rule. When I got my kittens I was told to keep them away from my dog for 5 days. I didn't listen. We introduced them right away. First night they all slept together in my bed.


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## mike taylor (Feb 4, 2015)

Well then if you have a red foot, a sulcata, a leopard or red ear sliders pm me I'll give you my number and you can question me to death . Haha I love talking torts but all my family and friends don't . (Besides the friends that have torts )


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## Heather H (Feb 4, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> Well then if you have a red foot, a sulcata, a leopard or red ear sliders pm me I'll give you my number and you can question me to death . Haha I love talking torts but all my family and friends don't . (Besides the friends that have torts )


But I don't have a tort  . But I hope I will in the near future


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## mike taylor (Feb 4, 2015)

Well even better can save you the trouble of buying all the wrong stuff .aa


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## Heather H (Feb 4, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> Well even better can save you the trouble of buying all the wrong stuff .aa


I had one. A Russian. Bought all the wrong stuff. I'm thinking about getting a Dalmatian Hermanni .


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## Gillian M (Feb 4, 2015)

Heather Hilliard said:


> I have been reading and re-reading so many threads. why do people ask for advice if they are not willing to change or accept the advice. I for one listen to all the advice. You guys are so much more experienced. So people if you don't take the advice offered then I wish the best of luck to you and your tort or turtle. Sorry had to vent a bit.


 I personally do listen to advice; I wouldn't have bothered to join the forum had I not been wiiling to take advice. However, (and regret to say this) some members-*wthout* *mentioning* *names*-give advice in a very *hurtful* manner; as if *speaking* to someone illiterate, ignorant, stupid...no diplomacy. This is not the way to give advice or to teach a subject, believe me. This manner would only make a student hate a subject.
Notice I said "speaking" as the illiterate do not read and write.


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## ascott (Feb 4, 2015)

Gillian Moore said:


> I personally do listen to advice; I wouldn't have bothered to join the forum had I not been wiiling to take advice. However, (and regret to say this) some members-*wthout* *mentioning* *names*-give advice in a very *hurtful* manner; as if *speaking* to someone illiterate, ignorant, stupid...no diplomacy. This is not the way to give advice or to teach a subject, believe me. This manner would only make a student hate a subject.
> Notice I said "speaking" as the illiterate do not read and write.




You are absolutely correct.


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## HLogic (Feb 5, 2015)

"You have a lovely setup!" Does that mean the setup is well-planned, takes all elements into consideration, is attractive looking -OR- is it a sarcastic, sardonic, cynical comment? Context, inflection, tone and the receiving party's mindset all play into the 'feeling'. Most folks here are in it for the tortoises. Leave the feelings in a diary where they belong. Take all of the advice offered and 'average' it - you will be much better served that way.


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## Gillian M (Feb 5, 2015)

HLogic said:


> "You have a lovely setup!" Does that mean the setup is well-planned, takes all elements into consideration, is attractive looking -OR- is it a sarcastic, sardonic, cynical comment? Context, inflection, tone and the receiving party's mindset all play into the 'feeling'. Most folks here are in it for the tortoises. Leave the feelings in a diary where they belong. Take all of the advice offered and 'average' it - you will be much better served that way.


 Never mind what I mean. There is just no need whatsoever to be hurtful giving advice.

Sorry, I disagree with you as per taking advice offered. Know why? Well, someone so *nasty* could advice me to do "A" when I'm supposed to do "B" and such a person could do so *intentionally!* Therefore, I've decided not to even read such alerts. Does that make things clearer?


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## HLogic (Feb 5, 2015)

You can be assured that bad advice will be followed with good advice in spades. Take a look at almost any thread. The clarity is gained by understanding that the advice given is not necessarily bad even from a nasty someone. I don't consider myself particularly PC and could give a flying in a rolling what someone thinks about me but I try to give good advice even while being "nasty". Hurtful is one's impression and the nouveau regime is under the impression that if your opinion is not shared by them; it is hurtful.

I was going to add a "Dear Diary" entry but thought it may have been construed as hurtful.


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## Gillian M (Feb 5, 2015)

HLogic said:


> You can be assured that bad advice will be followed with good advice in spades. Take a look at almost any thread. The clarity is gained by understanding that the advice given is not necessarily bad even from a nasty someone. I don't consider myself particularly PC and could give a flying in a rolling what someone thinks about me but I try to give good advice even while being "nasty". Hurtful is one's impression and the nouveau regime is under the impression that if your opinion is not shared by them; it is hurtful.
> 
> I was going to add a "Dear Diary" entry but thought it may have been construed as hurtful.


 Bad advice doesn't necessarily have to be followed by good advice...not when the person is deliberately trying to hurt you rather than give you advice. I am not in need of advice from such a *ruthless* person I can assure you!

No dear...you are not being hurtful if your opinion is unlike mine. But.....you can give advice in a friendly and a diplomatic way, likewise you can be so harsh when in your *wording* when sending the same message.

It seems as though I haven't made things clear enough, have I?


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## Tom (Feb 5, 2015)

J.P. said:


> I really hated it when I asked about mixing species and told no....it was my dream to have a lawn full of assorted tortoises....
> being told that mixing species is not possible was like hearing there is no Santa Clause for the first time....
> i almost did not folow that advice....but i'm glad i did. i will settle for a lawn full of leopards...



What is wrong with a lawn full of assorted species in separate enclosures? I think its lovely that way.


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## Tom (Feb 5, 2015)

Heather Hilliard said:


> Maybe all newbies need a mentor to help us through things. Someone we can call and talk to? Or even to private message? Just an idea.



I've done a lot of that. Its a good idea.

ALL NOOBS: Pick someone.


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## Tom (Feb 5, 2015)

HLogic said:


> "You have a lovely setup!" Does that mean the setup is well-planned, takes all elements into consideration, is attractive looking -OR- is it a sarcastic, sardonic, cynical comment? Context, inflection, tone and the receiving party's mindset all play into the 'feeling'. Most folks here are in it for the tortoises. Leave the feelings in a diary where they belong.



I agree. I just type plain English. There are some people who just seem to want to take everything they read and assume it was meant in the worst way imaginable. I answer questions and respond to threads and posts that interest me, or that I feel like I have some experience or insight that might help the poster.

Here is an example: I have frequently said, "Those ramped water bowls are literally death traps." My intent is to let the person know they have a dangerous product in their tortoise enclosure and they need to remove it. Could I phrase that in a more flowery, "nice" way? Perhaps. But I'm not trying to win a prize for being the most compassionate speaker, Im trying to help someone not come home and find their tortoise upside down and dead. I say it plainly and try to make my points with as few words as I can. In all honesty, my feelings, the other person's feelings and the tortoises feelings, never entered my mind.

Further, if I want something to sound bad, I am very capable of phrasing it so the person won't have to guess. The person who has been the most recent recipient of my ire, and frequent reciprocator, is a person who has never raised a single sulcata in any way at all, yet keeps trying to advise people on how they should raise their baby sulcatas. How does one know the best way, or worst way, to raise a given species if they've never done it at all?


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## HLogic (Feb 5, 2015)

I'll drink to that, Tom! Some of us old fogeys were told to tell the truth and let the audience figure it out..no tenderness intended.


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## Anyfoot (Feb 5, 2015)

Wow, This is an interesting thread, learning more about humans than torts though. lol 
I listen to experts and novices alike and make my own mind up. Everyone has good and bad ideas, its life. If a 1000 people give me 100% of there advice and only 0.1% is good, I take it and I'm 99.9% wiser than any of the 1000 people. and


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## Heather H (Feb 5, 2015)

well when I first started some of you ( not naming names) scared me.  but I learned very fast that it was good advice and just how people talk.


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## Tom (Feb 5, 2015)

Anyfoot said:


> If a 1000 people give me 100% of there advice and only 0.1% is good, I take it and I'm 99.9% wiser than any of the 1000 people.



Wait... What?

You are making my head hurt.


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## Tom (Feb 5, 2015)

Heather Hilliard said:


> well when I first started some of you ( not naming names) scared me.  but I learned very fast that it was good advice and just how people talk.



Its soooooo much more fun, if you name names.

C'mon Heather. Did I scare you?


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## Heather H (Feb 5, 2015)

Tom said:


> Wait... What?
> 
> You are making my head hurt.


lol


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## Heather H (Feb 5, 2015)

Tom said:


> Its soooooo much more fun, if you name names.
> 
> C'mon Heather. Did I scare you?


YES IT WAS YOU TOM


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## Heather H (Feb 5, 2015)

Heather Hilliard said:


> YES IT WAS YOU TOM


but i think I have learned so much. I have not even been here a month.


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## Heather H (Feb 5, 2015)

so i have decided since I have a huge 20 gallon tank that I am going to get 6 different babies and keep them all together. There is plenty of room. I have those coil light things, and i will soak so they don't need water right. I feed them dog or cat food I read that some where. they like it dry and cold I hear


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## Anyfoot (Feb 5, 2015)

Heather Hilliard said:


> so i have decided since I have a huge 20 gallon tank that I am going to get 6 different babies and keep them all together. There is plenty of room. I have those coil light things, and i will soak so they don't need water right. I feed them dog or cat food I read that some where. they like it dry and cold I hear


And don't forget to let the dog guard them.


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## Heather H (Feb 5, 2015)

Anyfoot said:


> And don't forget to let the dog guard them.


oh you bet he is so good i know he will be great with them. the cat loves to sleep in there too.


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## Yellow Turtle01 (Feb 5, 2015)

Don't forget to buy sand! The very knowledgeable petsore employee told me it was the best!


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## Yellow Turtle01 (Feb 5, 2015)

Oh yes, and my torts love romaine... so it's got to be pretty good for them, right?


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## Turtlepete (Feb 5, 2015)

Hi guys, I have a 5x10 pad of concrete around my pool deck, which covers my entire back yard with no grass areas, but it's all fenced in. I can adopt a 26" sulcata into this setting, right?

(No joke, I had this happen….)


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## Heather H (Feb 5, 2015)

we are gonna get yelled at


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## Anyfoot (Feb 5, 2015)

Yellow Turtle01 said:


> Oh yes, and my torts love romaine... so it's got to be pretty good for them, right?


Whoa whoa whoa this is serious. Am I not suppose to feed romaine lettuce.


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## Heather H (Feb 5, 2015)

Anyfoot said:


> Whoa whoa whoa this is serious. Am I not suppose to feed romaine lettuce.


small amount with a variety of other stuff. not much nutrition but not as bad as iceberg


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## Anyfoot (Feb 5, 2015)

Turtlepete said:


> Hi guys, I have a 5x10 pad of concrete around my pool deck, which covers my entire back yard with no grass areas, but it's all fenced in. I can adopt a 26" sulcata into this setting, right?
> 
> (No joke, I had this happen….)


Only if they stick grass upside down on the plastron, then its ok.


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## Anyfoot (Feb 5, 2015)

Heather Hilliard said:


> small amount with a variety of other stuff. not much nutrition but not as bad as iceberg


phew, thanks


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## Heather H (Feb 5, 2015)

i think we need a new thread. things we have heard but please dont try this at home


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## cmacusa3 (Feb 5, 2015)

Tom is an intimidator. (NOT REALLY)... His advice is always great! I don't feel intimidated by any of the so called experts on here because they are here to help.. Tom and Yvonne both spend a lot of time on here educating and helping everyone out is the way I see it, I was blessed to get their help when I needed.

Now I will say, there are several others that want to be an expert, and they either post way to much or simply just getting overbearing to new comers at times. Just my thoughts


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## Heather H (Feb 5, 2015)

Abramsmytankturtle said:


> Tom is an intimidator. (NOT REALLY)... His advice is always great! I don't feel intimidated by any of the so experts on here because they are here to help.. Tom and Yvonne both spend a lot of time on here educating and helping everyone out is the way I see it, I was blessed to get their help when I needed.
> 
> Now I will say, there are several others that want to be an expert, and they either post way to much or simply just getting overbearing to new comers at times. Just my thoughts


i think I fall in the last part. but I do try to help newbies and If I don't know the answer I will have no problem tagging someone. i know I post a lot but I am on here a great deal. learning all I can. Since I am so new I have learned a lot. and I know the stress that newbies are feeling.


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## Anyfoot (Feb 5, 2015)

Abramsmytankturtle said:


> Tom is an intimidator. (NOT REALLY)... His advice is always great! I don't feel intimidated by any of the so experts on here because they are here to help.. Tom and Yvonne both spend a lot of time on here educating and helping everyone out is the way I see it, I was blessed to get their help when I needed.
> 
> Now I will say, there are several others that want to be an expert, and they either post way to much or simply just getting overbearing to new comers at times. Just my thoughts


All I do is repeat what Tom says to newbies. haha  lol Only kidding.


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## Heather H (Feb 5, 2015)

Heather Hilliard said:


> so i have decided since I have a huge 20 gallon tank that I am going to get 6 different babies and keep them all together. There is plenty of room. I have those coil light things, and i will soak so they don't need water right. I feed them dog or cat food I read that some where. they like it dry and cold I hear




ok I hope everyone know that this was a joke


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## Anyfoot (Feb 5, 2015)

One thing I have thought before is don't assume a new member is a novice. I now someone who as kept torts for nearly 4 decades and never joined a tort forum. omg i'm off, there a wildlife programme on tv about tortoises. see ya.


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## Heather H (Feb 5, 2015)

Anyfoot said:


> One thing I have thought before is don't assume a new member is a novice. I now someone who as kept torts for nearly 4 decades and never joined a tort forum. omg i'm off, there a wildlife programme on tv about tortoises. see ya.


true. and this just made me laugh . hope you enjoyed the show.


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## Yvonne G (Feb 5, 2015)

Anyfoot said:


> One thing I have thought before is don't assume a new member is a novice. I now someone who as kept torts for nearly 4 decades and never joined a tort forum. omg i'm off, there a wildlife programme on tv about tortoises. see ya.



I know, huh? I was so embarrassed when Tim/Robin joined a couple years ago. I was just assuming every newbie was new to tortoises and Tim's first post talked about some of the more rare types tortoise that he was keeping. I said something about the newbie and these type tortoises. Was my face red? He's been breeding and raising the rarer tortoise for a very long time!


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## Anyfoot (Feb 5, 2015)

This thread is about advice and taking it. So i reckon any question is not off topic.
Can someone advise me what species of tort Lonesome George was.


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## HLogic (Feb 5, 2015)

Yes, we can


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## Heather H (Feb 5, 2015)

Anyfoot said:


> This thread is about advice and taking it. So i reckon any question is not off topic.
> Can someone advise me what species of tort Lonesome George was.


Lonesome George, a giant tortoise from the island of Pinta in the northern regions of the Galapagos Archipelago, was the last known survivor of the Pinta tortoise (_Chelonoidis abingdoni_).


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## dmmj (Feb 5, 2015)

If someone asks me how I raise mine, I give advice, they either ffollow it, or they don't. If I see someone raising good looking tortoiises, I ask, I don't see the problem. I can cause problems though.


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## Tom (Feb 5, 2015)

Heather Hilliard said:


> Lonesome George, a giant tortoise from the island of Pinta in the northern regions of the Galapagos Archipelago, was the last known survivor of the Pinta tortoise (_Chelonoidis abingdoni_).



Actually he was from the southern region and the speculation is that he was tossed from a pirate ship being chased by the British Navy as they rounded that northern island and floated/swam to shore.

It makes for a good story, but DNA testing has now revealed more of the real story. Things are really a genetic mess on Vulcan Wolfe. Lots of mixing of locales there, including Lonesome George's type.


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## FLINTUS (Feb 6, 2015)

Tom said:


> Actually he was from the southern region and the speculation is that he was tossed from a pirate ship being chased by the British Navy as they rounded that northern island and floated/swam to shore.
> 
> It makes for a good story, but DNA testing has now revealed more of the real story. Things are really a genetic mess on Vulcan Wolfe. Lots of mixing of locales there, including Lonesome George's type.


Yes, they are, and they won't be sorted anytime soon by the looks of it. Sad situation really, but I guess the question is do you preserve the genes in future generations in some way, even if cross-bred?
Just out of interest, I'm going to guess that the person you were referring to regarding raising Sullies was me?


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## FLINTUS (Feb 6, 2015)

Yellow Turtle01 said:


> Don't forget to buy sand! The very knowledgeable petsore employee told me it was the best!


This is an interesting one actually, one which is too quickly dismissed on this forum.
For chelonoidis-in general, some localities of carbonaria are exceptions-, erosa/homeana, impressa, emys, indotestudo etc. , they wouldn't come across what we consider sand in the wild. However, chilensis, elegans, pardalis, testudo genus, etc. would all come across 'sand' in the wild. This would probably be primarily silica, usually in quartz form. This is the kind of continental sand that you'd most likely find in the Russian Steppe, Sub-Saharan Africa, Patagonia, etc. This isn't necessarily baking hot and dry, it can be a mild climate and there can be plenty of grasses, but we would usually classify the small particles of rocks and minerals as sand, rather than rocky sediment. This 'sand' however is quite different to what we get for tortoises in captivity, which I suspect is mainly of carbonate origin, eroded from soft rocks. However, while this 'sand' is very different to the 'sand' found in habitats where most of these tortoises are from, I doubt that there would be much difference in the problems that people have experienced with impaction. Also, at least in theory, the Sonoran Desert sand would probably be very similar to some of the stuff found in the tortoises' habitat even for non-American species, but I don't know how often this is sold as your sand in the States??? 
The main problem here is a lack of clarity over what we define sand as, and the rocks which this sand came from.


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## leigti (Feb 6, 2015)

FLINTUS said:


> This is an interesting one actually, one which is too quickly dismissed on this forum.
> For chelonoidis-in general, some localities of carbonaria are exceptions-, erosa/homeana, impressa, emys, indotestudo etc. , they wouldn't come across what we consider sand in the wild. However, chilensis, elegans, pardalis, testudo genus, etc. would all come across 'sand' in the wild. This would probably be primarily silica, usually in quartz form. This is the kind of continental sand that you'd most likely find in the Russian Steppe, Sub-Saharan Africa, Patagonia, etc. This isn't necessarily baking hot and dry, it can be a mild climate and there can be plenty of grasses, but we would usually classify the small particles of rocks and minerals as sand, rather than rocky sediment. This 'sand' however is quite different to what we get for tortoises in captivity, which I suspect is mainly of carbonate origin, eroded from soft rocks. However, while this 'sand' is very different to the 'sand' found in habitats where most of these tortoises are from, I doubt that there would be much difference in the problems that people have experienced with impaction. Also, at least in theory, the Sonoran Desert sand would probably be very similar to some of the stuff found in the tortoises' habitat even for non-American species, but I don't know how often this is sold as your sand in the States???
> The main problem here is a lack of clarity over what we define sand as, and the rocks which this sand came from.


That is why I prefer not to have any sand. also from your above statement I think it is important to preserve the gene pool that you are talking about even if they are crossbred.


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## FLINTUS (Feb 6, 2015)

leigti said:


> That is why I prefer not to have any sand. also from your above statement I think it is important to preserve the gene pool that you are talking about even if they are crossbred.


It's very hard to do so with the Galapagos tortoises, due to the gegraphical splits in genes, and then a lack of certain species etc.
I don't personally use sand, but it is an interesting subject. Yes the sand we have is different, but why should it be so different that impaction in captivity is quite common, while we don't hear about it from the wild?


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## Yellow Turtle01 (Feb 6, 2015)

FLINTUS said:


> This is an interesting one actually, one which is too quickly dismissed on this forum.
> For chelonoidis-in general, some localities of carbonaria are exceptions-, erosa/homeana, impressa, emys, indotestudo etc. , they wouldn't come across what we consider sand in the wild. However, chilensis, elegans, pardalis, testudo genus, etc. would all come across 'sand' in the wild. This would probably be primarily silica, usually in quartz form. This is the kind of continental sand that you'd most likely find in the Russian Steppe, Sub-Saharan Africa, Patagonia, etc. This isn't necessarily baking hot and dry, it can be a mild climate and there can be plenty of grasses, but we would usually classify the small particles of rocks and minerals as sand, rather than rocky sediment. This 'sand' however is quite different to what we get for tortoises in captivity, which I suspect is mainly of carbonate origin, eroded from soft rocks. However, while this 'sand' is very different to the 'sand' found in habitats where most of these tortoises are from, I doubt that there would be much difference in the problems that people have experienced with impaction. Also, at least in theory, the Sonoran Desert sand would probably be very similar to some of the stuff found in the tortoises' habitat even for non-American species, but I don't know how often this is sold as your sand in the States???
> The main problem here is a lack of clarity over what we define sand as, and the rocks which this sand came from.


Oh yes, I know.  I'm using 'sand' as 'calci sand', that nasty fine, colored stuff petstores sell you. 
Now, you get actually get washed sylica sand (playsand is okay) and have it be mostly 100% okay. This is sometimes recommended for many arid lizards, and I can see how some arid, drier tortoises could benefit from some natural sand as well. The recommendation, however, is (or should be) usually paired with a recommended age, so that impaction on even larger grains of sand is less likely.


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## Yvonne G (Feb 6, 2015)

FLINTUS said:


> It's very hard to do so with the Galapagos tortoises, due to the gegraphical splits in genes, and then a lack of certain species etc.
> I don't personally use sand, but it is an interesting subject. Yes the sand we have is different, but why should it be so different that impaction in captivity is quite common, while we don't hear about it from the wild?



Mainly because tortoises don't eat very often from the ground. They bite bits off of stems or plants. Also, who knows what the tortoise died from when one finds a carcass or empty shell.


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## Tom (Feb 6, 2015)

FLINTUS said:


> Just out of interest, I'm going to guess that the person you were referring to regarding raising Sullies was me?



No sir. You would be incorrect. My only beef with anything you have to say is this carapace thickening thing that you sometimes mention in regards to 80% humidity or free feeding. I know Andy like to say this too. The problem with this theory is that in actual real life it doesn't exist. There are hundreds of examples just on this forum to prove it.


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## FLINTUS (Feb 6, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> Mainly because tortoises don't eat very often from the ground. They bite bits off of stems or plants. Also, who knows what the tortoise died from when one finds a carcass or empty shell.


Good point actually. Very few people make their tortoises 'work' for their food so to speak in captivity.


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## FLINTUS (Feb 6, 2015)

Tom said:


> No sir. You would be incorrect. My only beef with anything you have to say is this carapace thickening thing that you sometimes mention in regards to 80% humidity or free feeding. I know Andy like to say this too. The problem with this theory is that in actual real life it doesn't exist. There are hundreds of examples just on this forum to prove it.


Again, none of those examples prove the internal keratin, but there is a general lack of studies showing the density of the keratin, so it's hard to be conclusive. And just to be very clear on this, I'm not saying that high humidity causes this alone, but probably when the shell cannot dry out, i.e. none of the enclosure is less than 75% RH or so, and the keratin becomes saturated.


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