# Protein Deficient?



## Tom (Sep 17, 2010)

For many years, decades in fact, we have been told that pyramiding is caused, at least in part, by too much protein in the diet. I've talked to a few very experienced tortoise keepers and most of them agree that the average tortoise out there probably does not get ENOUGH protein. We've all be programmed to be anti-protein for so long, that in my opinion, we've gone too far. Let my adult tortoises be an example. 12 year old male sulcatas at 48 and 41 pounds. There are six year olds on this forum bigger than that. They most certainly did not get too much protein growing up. In fact they got almost none except what was in their weeds, grass, cactus and leafy greens.

This is one reason why I've jumped on the Mazuri bandwagon. It ensures that they get some proper protein. Not too much, but at least some. Its a good way to deliver it too.

Now I'm not suggesting we start feeding chicken and dog food to our torts, I simply saying we may have gone too far in our quest to eliminate protein from the tortoise diet.

Did I ever mention the story of the gopher hunting sulcata here in CA or the finch hunting wild Galop?


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## chadk (Sep 17, 2010)

Mine seem to be growing like weeds - off of my weeds. We have a lot of clover (a legume), which is pretty high in protein compared to the other grass and weeds they eat. Dozer went from 35lbs to 50lbs in a year. Don't know if that is average or what, but I would guess higher than those fed just hay and spring mix...


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## Annieski (Sep 18, 2010)

From my reading, I was under the impression that the protein content found in grasses, weeds, scrub-brush, and various leafy greens[turnip,collard, dandelion] is dependant on two things; 1. old or new growth-- 2. wet or dried Nutrient Analysis of Replacement Turtle and Tortoise Foods - Darrell M. Senneke. This is printed on the WCT website. [I'm having a problem getting the link into this post]. Because I had no experience with reptiles before Mortimer---I researched "herbivor" mammals[horses and cows] to try to find the connection of the "protein quality". Different grasses and hays are used in different quanties for the best resulting "feed" for the time of year and growth cycle of the animal. This is where I thought that the "excess" protein came from-- if the food that was made available to the tortoise was not "varied" enough, and the Other vitamins and minerals necessary for a "balanced" diet were not being supplied because of the " too high in protein" foods being removed[just like the thought of eliminating spinach-- all animals with red blood cells need a source of iron]. I don't see the need or the logic in feeding a Herbivor--"animal protein", when the protein requirement is met by a varied "green diet".
Most microorganisms and plants can biosynthesize all 20 standard amino acids, while animals (including humans) must obtain some of the amino acids from the diet.[28] The amino acids that an organism cannot synthesize on its own are referred to as essential amino acids. Key enzymes that synthesize certain amino acids are not present in animals Ã¢â‚¬â€ such as aspartokinase, which catalyzes the first step in the synthesis of lysine, methionine, and threonine from aspartate. If amino acids are present in the environment, microorganisms can conserve energy by taking up the amino acids from their surroundings and downregulating their biosynthetic pathways.

In animals, amino acids are obtained through the consumption of foods containing protein. Ingested proteins are then broken down into amino acids through digestion, which typically involves denaturation of the protein through exposure to acid and hydrolysis by enzymes called proteases. Some ingested amino acids are used for protein biosynthesis, while others are converted to glucose through gluconeogenesis, or fed into the citric acid cycle. This use of protein as a fuel is particularly important under starvation conditions as it allows the body's own proteins to be used to support life, particularly those found in muscle.[68] Amino acids are also an important dietary source of nitrogen.[citation needed]

I know some of this is "over-the-top", but I think it is important to try to find out the "why"'s --to be better able to correct a problem. JMT


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 18, 2010)

Bob has gained about 60 pounds in 4 years. He is 80 pounds now and 12 years old. He seems to have leveled off and is not growing as quickly as he has been. I don't know why or what that means. Most of his pen is planted in clover and all winter he is fed Mazuri and hay as his main diet. All Spring and Summer he is allowed free graze (clover, Bermuda and rye) and I add grape leafs and some produce as well.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 18, 2010)

Don't forget, protein doesn't necessarily mean meat. All plants contain protein.


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## Annieski (Sep 18, 2010)

emysemys said:


> Don't forget, protein doesn't necessarily mean meat. All plants contain protein.



Thanks Yvonne--- You were able to say everything in 2 sentences.
It's the plants that have the higher protein content that I think push the diet further to "excessive protein"--- and then becoming the "problem".


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## PeanutbuttER (Sep 18, 2010)

emysemys said:


> Don't forget, protein doesn't necessarily mean meat. All plants contain protein.



Very true. But it's hard to get out of the habit of thinking of protein as meat. I was reading the ingredients of some food (I think bee pollen) recently and it broke the proteins down to which amino acids were in it. Turns out there was a lot of protein in it.

Annieski I like how you broke down the word protein into the amino acids. Protein is a very very broad term for a whole lot of different products in the body.


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## Madkins007 (Sep 18, 2010)

PeanutbuttER said:


> emysemys said:
> 
> 
> > Don't forget, protein doesn't necessarily mean meat. All plants contain protein.
> ...



Well... and when we try to be more clear and say 'meat protein', we still get a little tripped up- it is hard to think of egg, slug, worm, and so forth as 'meat' even though it certainly is.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 18, 2010)

And the same thing applies to "animal protein." You don't really think of an earthworm or a cricket as an animal.


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## dolfanjack (Sep 18, 2010)

I think poo has alot more amino acids then what we think of. Ex. poo has alot of bacteria and red blood cells which have amino acids. So when our torts eat poo maybe they are trying to get more amino acids into their diet? Jack


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## biglove4bigtorts (Sep 18, 2010)

I think young and breeding animals would not be harmed by the addition of clover or alfalfa to the diet. I think that herbivores will not suffer abnormal growth from plant proteins, but consitently high levels of protein could strain the kidneys. Hydration is a key component as well, when considering the metabolization of proteins. I thinks that high protein plants should be rationed and fed in proportion with a varied diet...what proportions, I can only guess. Older animals (adults close to, at, or exceeding the expected size of that species) might be more prone to complications from excess protein in the diet, but during illness, breeding, or increased activity, moderate access to clover and alfalfa could be benificial. I plan to use bee pollen with my Manouria and add some mazuri to the diet in the Winter months. Next growing season, they are getting some clover and alflafa dispersed in the grazeing mix. I had clover this year, but it was in short supply.


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