# Feedback Needed - Russian Breeding



## medpsych (Aug 16, 2013)

I have been very successful in breeding many different Types of Tortoise, but one that still frustrates me is the Russian Tortoise. I live in Southern Calif and have been lucky enough to have my Females lay eggs on a consistent basis, but they almost never hatch after incubating. Two males and three Females, mating behavior and egg laying every year. Incubation at 84- 86. Humidity Good. What am I missing?


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## Yvonne G (Aug 16, 2013)

Do you break open the eggs to see if they were fertile, or to see what stage of development the embryo died or grew to?

My problem with Russian eggs is that I had too much moisture in the incubator and the eggs (6 this year) all cracked...which would have been ok, because the embryos kept growing. But then gnats came, laid eggs on the crack and the maggots got inside and ate out the babies' brains. (Ew-w, I know, huh? Too much info)


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## johnsonnboswell (Aug 16, 2013)

Eww. I still have one of last summer's eggs. I took it out of the incubator after many months but couldn't get rid of it. I'm still waiting for a sign that its bad or good.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 16, 2013)

Medpsyche:

I just met kanolomele yesterday and she had the cutest little baby Russian tortoises with her. I would say she's done a pretty good job of hatching Russian eggs. Send her a PM and see if she can offer you any pointers.

I'd still like to know if you cracked open the eggs to see if they were fertile or not.


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## Tom (Aug 16, 2013)

Hello and welcome.

You are not alone. Its just seems so hit or miss with russians. I know a lot of people like you and a lot of people like Kanolomele too. They just breed and produce babies every year for some people, and other people in seemingly similar situations just can't seem to make anything happen. I have noticed this for many years, but really began looking closely at it two years ago when I made the decision to start my own colony of russians with the intention of breeding at maturity. I have not found any consistent reason for success or failure. I have been able to eliminate some variables such as enclosure size, humidity, climate, hibernation or lack thereof, diet. I have not been able to find a reason. Every time I think I'm on to something, I find multiple examples that refute it.

The one variable that I am totally unsure of is the supposed differences in the subspecies. Whether there even are subspecies is debatable. Whether the subspecies matter for breeding is debatable. Whether they are all mutts in the USA anyway is debatable.

Its frustrating. I've been shooting down theories, including my own, for two years.


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## kanalomele (Aug 17, 2013)

Yvonne G said:


> Medpsyche:
> 
> I just met kanolomele yesterday and she had the cutest little baby Russian tortoises with her. I would say she's done a pretty good job of hatching Russian eggs. Send her a PM and see if she can offer you any pointers.
> 
> I'd still like to know if you cracked open the eggs to see if they were fertile or not.



Thank you for thinking of me as successful Yvonne. It was a pleasure to meet you and get the guided tour of your enclosures. You have so many beautiful species. I have had a good amount of success with my Russians. They have laid very consistently for me for a long time now. The biggest measure of success is of course beautiful babies. My most reliable females are the larger ones. My smaller girls are not great producers yet. Small clutches, unfertilised eggs or poor nest digging/egg laying skills are more common in the smaller girls. One girl this year broke two of her eggs trying to move them into position in the nest. She will learn, and get better next year. My Russians are in very large enclosures with lots of exercise opportunities that create strong legs and hips. This is important for egg laying/nest digging. I do incubate my eggs in a very run of the mill Hovabator. I have used it for years. The best piece of advice I can offer about incubation is to place the incubation unit wherever you have with a very stable temperature. An interior closet perhaps? My master closet is the best place for mine. I have tried several types of nesting medium. The latest being plain dirt from my hard. I decided that I prefer using regular old vermiculite and will use that exclusively next year. I keep a small cup of water in with them and top it off every few days. If the eggs are not fertilized then obviously your female is not happy for some reason. If they are fertilized then take a close look at your incubation techniques. I am happy to help if we can. Feel free to pm me with any further questions you might have.


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## medpsych (Aug 17, 2013)

Yvonne G said:


> Do you break open the eggs to see if they were fertile, or to see what stage of development the embryo died or grew to?
> 
> My problem with Russian eggs is that I had too much moisture in the incubator and the eggs (6 this year) all cracked...which would have been ok, because the embryos kept growing. But then gnats came, laid eggs on the crack and the maggots got inside and ate out the babies' brains. (Ew-w, I know, huh? Too much info)



How sensitive is the amount of moisture? I have always kept the moisture high with all my reptile eggs .... Maybe that's my problem


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## kanalomele (Aug 18, 2013)

medpsych said:


> Yvonne G said:
> 
> 
> > Do you break open the eggs to see if they were fertile, or to see what stage of development the embryo died or grew to?
> ...



I keep it pretty simple as far as moisture. A plastic tub of water inside the incubator that I top off every few days. I dont live in a particularly dry area so that is enough. If you have ever had mold in the substrate or on the eggs then you know there is a problem and you need to reduce the humidity.


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## Tom (Aug 18, 2013)

Kanalomele, do you start with regular out of the bag dry vermiculite and have only the cup of water for humidity? Or do you lightly dampen the vermiculite at the start?


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## kanalomele (Aug 18, 2013)

I prep the vermiculite by rinsing it and its still pretty damp when I put it in the incubator. If you touch it lightly your finger will have moisture on it. But I prep the incubator at least a week berore needing it. I use this time to get the temp stable and get my paperwork organized. I keep records of date laid, weights and which female laid which clutch etc. I dont open or touch anything inside the incubator during this time. So depending on how long the first clutch being laid takes it could be one to three weeks before I add any water. As I am collecting the eggs I give them a gentle rinsing to get the dirt or mud off, weigh them, mark them and place them in the prepped deli cups. Then I fill the water tub and let them be.


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## GBtortoises (Aug 19, 2013)

Speaking from experience with hatching Russian tortoise eggs-They should not sit in a damp incubation medium. Vermiculite is one of the worse for being too damp. They should be placed on a dry medium such as perlite in a container within the incubator. The humidity of the incubator should then be kept humid, 65-75% via an open water container in the incubator. The eggs themselves need to be kept dry, but within some ambient humidity to keep the embryo from desiccating within the egg. This is true of all Testudo species eggs but especially with Russian tortoise eggs. Just the opposite happens when the egg is sitting in a medium that is too wet. In the case too much moisture will be absorbed causing poor breathing ability of the egg shell and literally suffocating the embryo. Or often before that even happens the portion of the egg that is in contact with the damp medium will begin to mold or grow fungus. This causes the egg to rot. Even though we cannot see it with the naked eye. Tortoise eggs shells are permiable and need to be in order to exchange gases and oxygen while the embryo is developing. Any covering or clogging of this permiability endangers the developing embryo.
84-86 degrees is a bit low temperatue too. At the very low end of the scale. There is a lot less of a chance of embryo development at 84 degrees. A better range might be 87-89 degrees. I incubate Russian tortoise eggs at 88-90 at about 65-70% humidity and rarely ever have one that doesn't hatch. All other Testudo are incubated within the same temperature range with a higher humidity range (70-80%).


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## Carol S (Aug 19, 2013)

I used HatchRite and it worked well for me. I hatched 11 beautiful little Russian hatchings this year. I just poured the HatchRite right out of the bag into Glad plastic containers. You do not add any water to the HatchRite. I used a Hovabator incubator. I put water in the bottom tray of the Hovabator. I did not cover the containers. I used a digital thermometer/hygrometer probe to keep track of the temperature and humidity. The temperature ranged from 76-78 degrees and the humidity ranged from 72-74%.


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## GBtortoises (Aug 20, 2013)

Hatchrite works equally as well as Perlite. The major difference is that one pays more for Hatchrite because it is specifically marketed for the pet trade. Perlite can be purchased relatively cheap at any big box or garden store.
Hatchrite's claim is that it is "specially formulated". All that actually means is that they've added water to it! Hatchrite and Perlite are the same thing. Both work well, in my opinion far better and more stable (moisture-wise) than vermiculite or any other medium that I've used over the years.


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## jwhite (Aug 20, 2013)

I also use hatchrite and it has worked well for me. My problem in the beginning was too much humidity. I now follow pretty much the same protocol as kanalomele. I keep my incubator set up year round as my russians tend to lay whenever so in order to not have to keep setting the temp i just leave it going. I have had pretty good results every year until this one. My girls really haven't laid eggs and the ones that did either weren't fertile or they began to develop and then stopped not really sure what my problem is this year.


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## pappabear1973 (Sep 1, 2013)

Some very useful information in here. Some items I will have to research more on cost and availability. Thank you


Sorry, which kind of hovabator do you guys use. Thank you.


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## kanalomele (Sep 1, 2013)

The vermiculite is quite dry by the time I have any eggs to put in the incubator. I rinse because I find the vermiculite too "dusty" if I dont. I would get little clouds of dust particles whenever I opened the incubator to refill the water container. Those would settle all over the eggs and get in the way of me visually checking on them through the window of the incubator. I would have to open it again and wipe off the surface of the eggs which I never like to do. I usually try to touch or handle them as little as possible. I have learned that I can see them chalk through the window and prefer being able to do that. I dont pick up or candle an egg unless there is some other reason, such as an unusually long incubation time. I will have to give Perlite another go perhaps but have been happy with my rinsed vermiculite. I will not be using dirt from my yard again. I have had way to hard a time maintaining the humidity and keeping the soil as "sanitary" as needed. It was a worthwhile experiment as I am always interested in trusting the natural wisdom of the torts. I also will not be placing them in the incubator at the same angle they were laid in the nest. I have an adorable hatchling that was at his "nest angle" as an experiment. He wound up developing improperly in the egg. He was folded off center from what I can only attribute the the gravity being off center in the egg. He is cute, but definitely not normal. Additionally, I incubate at 86-89 with the focus beingnon the higher end of that range. I get the temperature stable and place a thermometer that alarms if the eggs go outside of that range. Always more to learn..


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