# Driving



## Maggie Cummings (Dec 29, 2015)

jaizei said:


> Obviously, in those instances it was not safe because the people practicing it did not take the necessary steps to ensure that it was. It is not a hard concept when you think logically. Some people drive recklessly; do you still drive? How many statistics would you like me to post about unsafe drivers causing accidents and deaths before you accept the fact that driving is always unsafe and no one should ever drive.




Driving is a "privilege" not a right and driving test need to be harder. Most people should be taught by professionals, not taught the same bad habits that the husband is teaching the wife. Driving is more of chess game, and people just think they can push on the gas and brake and it's all fine. Most can't handle a car in a slide, do donuts or simply make the car handle differently. I fool around in parking lots at least a couple of times a month, it calms me down, hones my handling experience, and it's *FUN!!! *My new tires, laid a burnout that was 105 feet long....I want a trophy for that one. I'm a motorhead, I never grew up, I just look old and I am still pretty young at heart.....OK, I've given my opinions for the day....yes, I am different, I pride myself in being different. And I'll bet I have had more adventures and seen and done things most in my class of people haven't experienced. I've had a pretty decent life actually. At least it was exciting and different. So I'm done with opinions for the day....
Have a great day ya'll, I'm going to clean house, I DO know how to have a good time....
But first, it's not raining right now, so I am gonna wash my car....so it can rain on a clean car...My wish is to have a garage so I can wax and buff when I want. All I have is a cold carport....adios


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## mike taylor (Dec 29, 2015)

You have the right to travel in the US . Most people don't know laws and rights given to you . You don't even need a drivers license to drive a car . As long as its not for profit . Just become a sovereign citizen. Just some paper work to carry with you . You don't even need a plate on your car . Are you going to be pulled over yes you will . It's up to the cop if he wants to read your paper work as your license . But you will get out of it . There hasn't been one case in the supreme Court that has convicted someone for exercising their rights. Look it up at your library under freedom of traveling . You'd be shocked .


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## jaizei (Dec 29, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> You have the right to travel in the US . Most people don't know laws and rights given to you . You don't even need a drivers license to drive a car . As long as its not for profit . Just become a sovereign citizen. Just some paper work to carry with you . You don't even need a plate on your car . Are you going to be pulled over yes you will . It's up to the cop if he wants to read your paper work as your license . But you will get out of it . There hasn't been one case in the supreme Court that has convicted someone for exercising their rights. Look it up at your library under freedom of traveling . You'd be shocked .



This is simply not true. I'd suggest that you actually look it up for yourself instead of believing what you hear, or read, from sources that cherry pick quotes from rulings to give this idea. Sovereign citizens are regularly arrested and lose in court if they don't plead out. 


If you don't want to research it for yourself, this demonstrates how quotes are used out of context and show that the full ruling actually goes against what they/you are saying. 

http://www.snopes.com/supreme-court-rules-drivers-licenses-unnecessary/



If you want to go on, I can split these to a separate thread since this is off topic.


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## mike taylor (Dec 29, 2015)

Look up the laws that are given to you . You don't have to have a license to drive .


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## mike taylor (Dec 29, 2015)

Here is a good read for you .


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## mike taylor (Dec 29, 2015)

Man if only I could post all my research. But I'll just drop it . You believe you have to pay to travel freely as a free person .


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## Tom (Dec 29, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> Here is a good read for you .



Mike, I'm interested in this topic and agree with the sentiment. Where can I read the complete text?

Feel free to PM me if you don't want to do it here.


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## jaizei (Dec 29, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> Here is a good read for you .




I do not see any citations to laws or cases. The link I gave showed that a quoted portion of a ruling that is used to 'prove' that you don't need a license actually says the very opposite and that a city may regulate it as long as it is fair and not arbitrary.


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## mike taylor (Dec 29, 2015)

That's because I can't post links of this stupid phone I'm using .


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## mike taylor (Dec 29, 2015)

Here is more reading on the subject.


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## jaizei (Dec 29, 2015)

Tom said:


> Mike, I'm interested in this topic and agree with the sentiment. Where can I read the complete text?
> 
> Feel free to PM me if you don't want to do it here.




What complete text? It's quotes taken out of context, that in their entirety contradict the opinion they're being used to support. They rightly assume that most people aren't going to actually read all the sources for quotes in their entirety. It's playing into people's confirmation bias.

Want to talk about Ohio's suspect statehood next?


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## Tom (Dec 29, 2015)

jaizei said:


> What complete text?



The complete text of what he posted above. The screen shot from his smart phone cuts off the article part way through. I'd like to read the whole thing, and more about the subject, if that is okay with you.


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## jaizei (Dec 29, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> Here is more reading on the subject.



Neither of those citations support what is written or the idea that drivers licenses are unconstitutional. Shapiro vs Thompson was about right to travel, but nothing about driving. It centered on whether there could be a waiting period for welfare, and ultimately ruled that "inhibiting migration by needy persons into the State is constitutionally impermissible" i.e., poor people have a right to travel too. Murdock vs Pennsylvania was about requiring Jehovah witnesses to buy licenses to go door to door (as was required for door to door salesmen at the time). It was ruled that it was an unconstitutional tax on their religious activities. I imagine if you made a religion centered around driving you'd have more standing. 

Usually, if something I see online includes a bunch of underlined, bolded or capitalized text, I question its veracity.


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## jaizei (Dec 29, 2015)

Tom said:


> The complete text of what he posted above. The screen shot from his smart phone cuts off the article part way through. I'd like to read the whole thing, and more about the subject, if that is okay with you.



http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/DLbrief.shtml


As I said before and demonstrated above, they take small portions out of context. I gave an example of this above. Sovereign citizens are fun to watch, but don't start believing that nonsense.


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## mike taylor (Dec 29, 2015)

I never said that a was a sovereign citizen nor did I say I believe in their crap . I said you don't have to have a drivers license to freely travel as a freeman . It's your right . Look up supreme Court rulings of people being convicted for Exercising their constitutional rights. Yes you will have to go to court . Yes you maybe arrested. Yes you will have to spend more money than its worth to not sit in jail . Yes you will have to take it to the supreme courts . But they cannot convicte you for your right of freedoms of movement . They will get you in other ways . Contempt of court ,resisting arrest or what other crap they want to charge you with .
My point is you don't need a licence to drive under your constitutional rights . We have all kinds of laws that violate rights yet we keep going along with them . Due to fear of prosecution.


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## jaizei (Dec 29, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> I never said that a was a sovereign citizen nor did I say I believe in their crap . I said you don't have to have a drivers license to freely travel as a freeman . It's your right . Look up supreme Court rulings of people being convicted for ex
> 
> Exercising their constitutional rights



Yes, you are correct in that you do not need a drivers license to *travel*. You need one to operate a car on a public road, i.e., *drive*. The root of what you are saying is based in sovereign citizen ideology. That's why you'll see a lot of references to commerce and commercial activities. 

There have been numerous cases both ruling against their claims, as well as establishing that they are subject to the laws.


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## mike taylor (Dec 29, 2015)

Tom you can Google the crap out of it like jay-z's doing . I did pull the screen shots from Google . Because most of my readings come from the law library in down town Houston . A year or two ago I seen some stuff on it . Plus my wife was doing some legal documents for a doctor she is working for . So for the last year or so I was interested in the useless laws . While she was doing her thing . I was reading up on what it means to freely travel as a freeman of the USA . I've googled a bunch of crap. Some contradicts other online searches. But as the law reads in the amendments you don't need a drivers license to drive for travel as a freeman . As long as there is no profit . So that means if you drive to get a donut or visit your mom technically don't need a driver's license. If you drive to your job to which your earning profits you need to have one . So technically you don't even need motor vehicle insurance or license plate . Are you asking for a lot of legal crap oooo yeah you are . This is one of my favorite things to do . Is to research stupid laws . Like in Texas it is against the law not to back in your driveway . Another one it is illegal to walk down a farm road with a barbed wire tool . Crazy stuff . I never thought I was going to start a big debate over the subject but its true .


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## mike taylor (Dec 29, 2015)

What do you think a carriage is ? It's means of movement . Be it a horse a car or motorcycle . As the law is written it did not definite say a car it says carriage . Is the common man with a brain going to do this . Yes some idiot will try to get away with but our justice system is not always just . Most of the sovereign people don't have the money to take it past the city of jurisdiction let alone supreme court. The right to bear arms is being infringed on . Also they can't change what's written in the constitution but the can add needless laws that are passed and accepted by we the people without a fight .


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## jaizei (Dec 29, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> Tom you can Google the crap out of it like jay-z's doing . I did pull the screen shots from Google . Because most of my readings come from the law library in down town Houston . A year or two ago I seen some stuff on it . Plus my wife was doing some legal documents for a doctor she is working for . So for the last year or so I was interested in the useless laws . While she was doing her thing . I was reading up on what it means to freely travel as a freeman of the USA . I've googled a bunch of crap. Some contradicts other online searches. But as the law reads in the amendments you don't need a drivers license to drive for travel as a freeman . As long as there is no profit . So that means if you drive to get a donut or visit your mom technically don't need a driver's license. If you drive to your job to which your earning profits you need to have one . So technically you don't even need motor vehicle insurance or license plate . Are you asking for a lot of legal crap oooo yeah you are . This is one of my favorite things to do . Is to research stupid laws . Like in Texas it is against the law not to back in your driveway . Another one it is illegal to walk down a farm road with a barbed wire tool . Crazy stuff . I never thought I was going to start a big debate over the subject but its true .




Googling doesn't do any good if you are just looking at what comes up. It's like 10 to 1 (or worse) of sites just copying and pasting the same out-of-context quotes to sites actually discussing it or based on fact. 


http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/TN/htm/TN.521.htm

_SUBCHAPTER B. GENERAL LICENSE REQUIREMENTS

Sec. 521.021. LICENSE REQUIRED. A person, other than a person expressly exempted under this chapter, may not operate a motor vehicle on a highway in this state unless the person holds a driver's license issued under this chapter.

Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995._


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## mike taylor (Dec 29, 2015)

If you can some how get a judge sign a affidavit of truth stating you are a freeman of the USA traveling privately and get it notarized . Then carry it with you you can freely drive without a license . But good luck on that .


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## mike taylor (Dec 29, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> If you can some how get a judge sign a affidavit of truth stating you are a freeman of the USA traveling privately and get it notarized . Then carry it with you you can freely drive without a license . But good luck on that .


But in saying this you will have to say in that judges jurisdiction . It's truth not fiction you can do it . If you are willing to fight for it .


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## mike taylor (Dec 29, 2015)

jaizei said:


> Googling doesn't do any good if you are just looking at what comes up. It's like 10 to 1 (or worse) of sites just copying and pasting the same out-of-context quotes to sites actually discussing it or based on fact.
> 
> 
> http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/TN/htm/TN.521.htm
> ...


I see what you are saying jay-z .You can read everything to benefit yourself . Each state can make laws or codes . But as the Constitution reads you don't need a licence to drive .


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## jaizei (Dec 29, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> What do you think a carriage is ? It's means of movement . Be it a horse a car or motorcycle . As the law is written it did not definite say a car it says carriage . Is the common man with a brain going to do this . Yes some idiot will try to get away with but our justice system is not always just . Most of the sovereign people don't have the money to take it past the city of jurisdiction let alone supreme court. The right to bear arms is being infringed on . Also they can't change what's written in the constitution but the can add needless laws that are passed and accepted by we the people without a fight .



What references 'carriage'? If you're going off of things you find on Google, they have a habit of citing cases that are old and have been either overruled or superseded by subsequent rulings, laws or amendments.


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## jaizei (Dec 29, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> I see what you are saying jay-z .You can read everything to benefit yourself . Each state can make laws or codes . But as the Constitution reads you don't need a licence to drive .



http://pseudolaw.com/right-to-travel-united-states


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## mike taylor (Dec 29, 2015)

Thompson V.Smith 154 se 579.11

The supreme court in Washington D.C. ruled you don't have to have a licence to drive a vehicle. The laws states its what ever means of transportation . Horse and buggy ,carriages ,and automobiles 2003 .


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## mike taylor (Dec 29, 2015)

What it boils down to is a legal argument . The we can keep trying to prove each other wrong . It's your right as a US citizen to drive a motor vehicle its not a privilege as they lead you to believe . You don't have to have one . You will have to fight for it but technically you don't .


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## mike taylor (Dec 29, 2015)

You want to talk Roe vs Wade now ? Just pulling your chain . Just to let you know I really enjoy this .


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## Maggie Cummings (Dec 29, 2015)

jaizei said:


> Googling doesn't do any good if you are just looking at what comes up. It's like 10 to 1 (or worse) of sites just copying and pasting the same out-of-context quotes to sites actually discussing it or based on fact.
> 
> 
> http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/TN/htm/TN.521.htm
> ...



Looks like just Texas to me. I know I was stopped several times a week as a truck driver in Texass, to check my "papers'. I constantly am pulled over by the Corvallis cops who no longer even ask for my license. I used to tell them I didn't have one, but that I had insurance. That worked for a while.


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## mike taylor (Dec 29, 2015)

You were a truck driver so you had to have them . There's loopholes in every law . There's even loopholes in tax laws for Texans if you know where to find them . Something to do with being a sovereign state I have no idea on tax laws. I have a friend trying to not pay his taxes . He hasn't paid in two years . He has lost his house and a crap load of money trying to not pay . He is a smart dude but I thinks it would have been better just to pay them . He has a law suit to get his house back . I know it isn't going to workout to well for him . His life's mission is to stop paying taxes . I told him to move out of the US .haha


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## jaizei (Dec 30, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> Thompson V.Smith 154 se 579.11
> View attachment 160427
> The supreme court in Washington D.C. ruled you don't have to have a licence to drive a vehicle. The laws states its what ever means of transportation . Horse and buggy ,carriages ,and automobiles 2003 .




Thompson V Smith was covered in like my first post in this thread, the first link I posted. It is being taken out of context. The part they never quote specifically says that it may be regulated as long as it is done fairly and not arbitrarily.


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## jaizei (Dec 30, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> You were a truck driver so you had to have them . There's loopholes in every law . There's even loopholes in tax laws for Texans if you know where to find them . Something to do with being a sovereign state I have no idea on tax laws. I have a friend trying to not pay his taxes . He hasn't paid in two years . He has lost his house and a crap load of money trying to not pay . He is a smart dude but I thinks it would have been better just to pay them . He has a law suit to get his house back . I know it isn't going to workout to well for him . His life's mission is to stop paying taxes . I told him to move out of the US .haha




Maybe because those 'loopholes' are created from the same out of context quoting. 

Talk to Wesley Snipes and get back to me about not paying taxes.


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## mike taylor (Dec 30, 2015)

Nobody said I wasn't paying taxes . I know it is not going to work. I said so . I don't need Wesley snipes or you to tell me .


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## Turtlepete (Dec 30, 2015)

Constitution Smoshtitution. The government of this country today regards it as a scrap of paper they can sidestep whenever they wish, as they have done time and time again. The core principles this country was founded on are fading away every day, since we as a society seem more than willing to trade our freedoms for "protection".


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## DutchieAmanda (Dec 30, 2015)

Why would you go to court so you don't have to have a license? I've heard it's fairly simple to get one in the US (we have to take 20-50 hours lessons and a theoretic and practical exam; many people fail 1-3 times...). I'm just happy with this system, this means most people at least know the basics of rules and driving technique!


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## mike taylor (Dec 30, 2015)

That's not the point . We have rights here is all I'm saying . You have the right to travel freely here . But that has been taken by laws . It is easy to get a licence here . But if you can navigate the laws there are loopholes where you can get away with not having one .


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## mike taylor (Dec 30, 2015)

Turtlepete said:


> Constitution Smoshtitution. The government of this country today regards it as a scrap of paper they can sidestep whenever they wish, as they have done time and time again. The core principles this country was founded on are fading away every day, since we as a society seem more than willing to trade our freedoms for "protection".


Thank you ! You get it ! Freedoms are traded for protection . I need no protection from no man . I'm my own protector .


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## jaizei (Dec 30, 2015)

Turtlepete said:


> Constitution Smoshtitution. The government of this country today regards it as a scrap of paper they can sidestep whenever they wish, as they have done time and time again. The core principles this country was founded on are fading away every day, since we as a society seem more than willing to trade our freedoms for "protection".






mike taylor said:


> Thank you ! You get it ! Freedoms are traded for protection . I need no protection from no man . I'm my own protector .




We've been discussing facts - laws, etc. For the most part this thread has been about what the law is, not what it should be. If it goes that way, the thread may get closed for being political.


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## DutchieAmanda (Dec 30, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> That's not the point. We have rights here is all I'm saying.



Never mind, it is probably a US-thing us Europeans will not understand


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## mike taylor (Dec 30, 2015)

It's hard not to talk laws with out the political aspects.


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## jaizei (Dec 30, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> That's not the point . We have rights here is all I'm saying . You have the right to travel freely here . But that has been taken by laws . It is easy to get a licence here . But if you can navigate the laws there are loopholes where you can get away with not having one .




I look forward to any loop hole you can find that says a license is not required to drive on a public road.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Dec 30, 2015)

jaizei said:


> I look forward to any loop hole you can find that says a license is not required to drive on a public road.


Why is your driving that bad ? If so move to AZ . They drive slow in the left lane , slow down to enter the expressway , and they stop in the right lane to make a left turn .


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## jaizei (Dec 30, 2015)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> Why is your driving that bad ? If so move to AZ . They drive slow in the left lane , slow down to enter the expressway , and they stop in the right lane to make a left turn .



Because it would mean that I learned something. I doubt any actual loop hole exists but if there is one that is legit and not the product of selective quotation or misunderstanding then I would like to see it.

People drive like that everywhere


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Dec 30, 2015)

jaizei said:


> Because it would mean that I learned something. I doubt any actual loop hole exists but if there is one that is legit and not the product of selective quotation or misunderstanding then I would like to see it.
> 
> People drive like that everywhere


Please don't say that I'm hoping there is a nice place to drive in this messed up world .


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## Big Charlie (Dec 30, 2015)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> Please don't say that I'm hoping there is a nice place to drive in this messed up world .


No, you're right. People in Arizona drive worse, at least around Phoenix. Other areas have their own particular foibles. In Texas, they come to a complete stop before accelerating onto the freeway. I've seen them drive up the grass to exit, rather waiting until they reached an exit. In the South, they have drive through daiquiri stands, so I don't know how sober some of the drivers are.


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## mike taylor (Dec 30, 2015)

Here is how I found my information . Go down town to the law library . Look up freedoms of movement .Then you'll have to look up carriages under the definition of law. Then talk to the legal assistant about what you are looking for .She will show you two other books on driving regulations in your state . If you are lucky or spend a month or so driving to down town you will meet some law students and they will help you also . I didn't just pull this out of thin air or hearsay. The way I first heard about it was YouTube .There's a know your rights channel .A guy was doing this with a affidavit of truth . Which is signed by a judge and notarized . You must have this paper with you . It's more work than what it is worth by far . I just so happened to have to drive my wife to the library to do legal crap for her boss .So this is what I did while she was doing her thing . Boy now do I wish I would have kept and noted all the information I found . You are not going to find it as easily as internet searches . If that was the case everyone would be doing it . An on top of that it's up to the officers to wright you a ticket or let you go . How many officers will not wright you a ticket not many here in Houston . Then you will have to go down town again for Court on your ticket . Then it's up to that judges decision to charge you or dismiss said ticket . It's a hassle all the way around . But you can do it .


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## mike taylor (Jan 1, 2016)

Article 4 free inhabitants. Look that up it's a good read . Police operate under color of law . Color of law is totally different . Read up on color of laws .


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 2, 2016)

DutchieAmanda said:


> Why would you go to court so you don't have to have a license? I've heard it's fairly simple to get one in the US (we have to take 20-50 hours lessons and a theoretic and practical exam; many people fail 1-3 times...). I'm just happy with this system, this means most people at least know the basics of rules and driving technique!



No it doesn't. All a driver's license in the US does is give identification on who you are to the cops when you f**k up. I was an over the road driver for 10 years or something, I pulled a 53'trailer in every state in the continental United States, ('cept Alaska) and I can tell you *MOST* drivers don't know how to avoid an accident that's about to happen, as they were never taught to actually handle a car. I know how to slide, do donuts (very important) and how to use speed to avoid an oncoming accident, instead of slamming on the brakes and having an accident. Speed wins every time. Most people *HAVE* to get in front of me, but then they don't want to go as fast as I was going. This right turn on Red, is HIGHLY misunderstood. You can only turn right against the red, WHEN NO ONE IS COMING.  That means that if you pull out in front of me in my red Camaro, sh!t is gonna rain all over you and your car. That is my biggest complaint. When these jerks slow me down, or make me put my foot on the brake it cost me gas mileage, hence, costs money, and causes road rage. That's one reason I mainly drive during hours that no one else is out. The store opens at 5 am, I'm there. I was taught to drive by a motor head, then I took Bob Bonderant's offensive driving course, and 8 months in truck driver school.
now the Oregon Powers That Be are talking about raising our state speed limit to 75. Holy crap, accidents, Batman.
These Oregonians can't even get up to the 55 speed limit, you just don't automatically know how to drive at high speeds. Jeez I want to legally go faster, but not with a group of dumb a**es who don't know how to drive fast....I'm ranting now, sorry...
Plus, I have driven lots without a proper license, but I did keep insurance, and I did go to court when requested. Several times in fact and each time I told the judge that Social Security didn't pay enough for me to afford the license fee, gas and insurance. So the license lost out. I won 3 out of about 7 times.
Oh and now I have an 8 year license.....


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## Anyfoot (Jan 2, 2016)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> Please don't say that I'm hoping there is a nice place to drive in this messed up world .


That made me laugh.
Reading what you guys say about driving over there, it really does sound bad. We get idiots like most but it seems anyone can jump in a car and drive over there. In the uk you under go on average 50hrs of lessons on the road, and you have to pass a practical and theory test. There's also a hazard perception coarse. Then if you do a pass plus test you can get your insurance down.


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## Anyfoot (Jan 2, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> That made me laugh.
> Reading what you guys say about driving over there, it really does sound bad. We get idiots like most but it seems anyone can jump in a car and drive over there. In the uk you under go on average 50hrs of lessons on the road, and you have to pass a practical and theory test. There's also a hazard perception coarse. Then if you do a pass plus test you can get your insurance down.


 All of the above still doesn't stop road rage or someone going down the motorways the wrong way. 

Try driving in Malta. They use the horn instead of the breaks.


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## Tom (Jan 2, 2016)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> Please don't say that I'm hoping there is a nice place to drive in this messed up world .



Germany. Best drivers I've ever seen.


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## Anyfoot (Jan 2, 2016)

Tom said:


> Germany. Best drivers I've ever seen.


I agree, and they have some autobahns with unlimited speed restrictions. I'm sure I read somewhere once that statistically they have less road accidents than anywhere else in Europe. I drove there once, it was a pleasure.


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## mike taylor (Jan 2, 2016)

If people would keep the same attitude when they drive as they do when meeting new friends the roads would be safer . It seems as soon as people get in a car its screw you buddy . They get if you're not first you're last attitude .


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## mike taylor (Jan 2, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> No it doesn't. All a driver's license in the US does is give identification on who you are to the cops when you f**k up. I was an over the road driver for 10 years or something, I pulled a 53'trailer in every state in the continental United States, ('cept Alaska) and I can tell you *MOST* drivers don't know how to avoid an accident that's about to happen, as they were never taught to actually handle a car. I know how to slide, do donuts (very important) and how to use speed to avoid an oncoming accident, instead of slamming on the brakes and having an accident. Speed wins every time. Most people *HAVE* to get in front of me, but then they don't want to go as fast as I was going. This right turn on Red, is HIGHLY misunderstood. You can only turn right against the red, WHEN NO ONE IS COMING.  That means that if you pull out in front of me in my red Camaro, sh!t is gonna rain all over you and your car. That is my biggest complaint. When these jerks slow me down, or make me put my foot on the brake it cost me gas mileage, hence, costs money, and causes road rage. That's one reason I mainly drive during hours that no one else is out. The store opens at 5 am, I'm there. I was taught to drive by a motor head, then I took Bob Bonderant's offensive driving course, and 8 months in truck driver school.
> now the Oregon Powers That Be are talking about raising our state speed limit to 75. Holy crap, accidents, Batman.
> These Oregonians can't even get up to the 55 speed limit, you just don't automatically know how to drive at high speeds. Jeez I want to legally go faster, but not with a group of dumb a**es who don't know how to drive fast....I'm ranting now, sorry...
> Plus, I have driven lots without a proper license, but I did keep insurance, and I did go to court when requested. Several times in fact and each time I told the judge that Social Security didn't pay enough for me to afford the license fee, gas and insurance. So the license lost out. I won 3 out of about 7 times.
> Oh and now I have an 8 year license.....


And this is why I like Maggie ! No bulls*** type of person . Love you Maggie keep speaking your mind people will hear you one day .


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## jaizei (Jan 2, 2016)

mike taylor said:


> Article 4 free inhabitants. Look that up it's a good read . Police operate under color of law . Color of law is totally different . Read up on color of laws .



Article 4 of what? If it's what I think it is, it has no bearing on driving without a license.


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## DutchieAmanda (Jan 2, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> No it doesn't. All a driver's license in the US does is give identification on who you are to the cops when you f**k up.



Haha, great rant! I meant that the Dutch system makes sure you know the basics of driving if you have a license  

And yes, driving in Germany is fun! However, don't go slow (<120 km/h) on the left lane


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## mike taylor (Jan 2, 2016)

jaizei said:


> Article 4 of what? If it's what I think it is, it has no bearing on driving without a license.


Of civil liberties. You are blinded on what you think the laws are . Don't fill bad not that you do . But the people in charge are making people believed in false truths . Those of us free thinkers that are very rare and far between do seek truth and justice . It seems you never even researched anything until I said something . Then you jump on the Machine . To try and find something to hold me down to shut me up . But what you don't realize this is not a game . Read the DMV's definition of what a driver's license is. You are probably one of the people that corroborate with US check point like you live in Nazi Germany. ( No offense to people that live in Germany) Your civil liberties are being taken one at a time until you wake up and take your country back . It's not only trying to get you to go down town and pick up a book its getting others to do the same . Police are not here to help you . They have the job to uphold our freedoms but all they do is take . You have blinders on and choose to follow instead of leading people to the truth .For everyone that doesn't want to hear me and think I'm full of crap go on know your rights .org and sister websites read them . They are good starting points but follow up on them.You are probably one of the people that think our Confederate flag is racist . But I think this discussion is getting out of hand . I'll just drop it with this . Don't listen to me or Jaizei do your own research and free your mind . That's if you love this country an what it was founded on ,or choose to live controlled by unjust laws .


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## jaizei (Jan 2, 2016)

mike taylor said:


> Of civil liberties. You are blinded on what you think the laws are . Don't fill bad not that you do . But the people in charge are making people believed in false truths . Those of us free thinkers that are very rare and far between do seek truth and justice . It seems you never even researched anything until I said something . Then you jump on the Machine . To try and find something to hold me down to shut me up . But what you don't realize this is not a game . Read the DMV's definition of what a driver's license is. You are probably one of the people that corroborate with US check point like you live in Nazi Germany. ( No offense to people that live in Germany) Your civil liberties are being taken one at a time until you wake up and take your country back . It's not only trying to get you to go down town and pick up a book its getting others to do the same . Police are not here to help you . They have the job to uphold our freedoms but all they do is take . You have blinders on and choose to follow instead of leading people to the truth .For everyone that doesn't want to hear me and think I'm full of crap go on know your rights .org and sister websites read them . They are good starting points but follow up on them.You are probably one of the people that think our Confederate flag is racist . But I think this discussion is getting out of hand . I'll just drop it with this . Don't listen to me or Jaizei do your own research and free your mind . That's if you love this country an what it was founded on ,or choose to live controlled by unjust laws .



We should probably start with a big ol' LOL.

Once again, you are wrong. Everything you've posted in this thread has been wrong. Article 4 of Civil Liberties? Please explain where such a document may be found. The Constitution? Or the Articles of Confederation, which was superseded by the Constitution. If you're gonna lecture me and make assumptions that I don't have a clue, you should do a better job of knowing what you're talking about. Make a better, somewhat coherent argument and I'll try to explain to you why it is wrong. I can assure you that I had read up on the topic before you mentioned it; that's why I immediately knew you were wrong and what would follow. Speaking of 'following'; you are posting references that are either irrelevant to the point, taken out of context, or even contradict your point. 

Perhaps you can provide the definition that you are referring to from the DMV. I showed you the relevant portion of the Texas Transportation Code above. 



And sorry, I'm still laughing. This post is l i t e r a l l y the best caricature of someone saying what you are saying possible.


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## jaizei (Jan 2, 2016)

...And this thread will be closed within the next 24 hours.


If you want to say something do it now. (within the guidelines)


this is why we can't have nice things....


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 2, 2016)

Oregon has voted to give drivers licenses to illegal aliens.


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## mike taylor (Jan 2, 2016)

The term motor vehicle means every description of carriage or other propelled or drawn by mechanical power used for commercial purpose on the highways in the transportation of passengers and property. 18 usc see 31 
The term used for commercial purposes means the carriage of persons for any fee .
18usc see 31 
The term automobile means a 4 wheeled vehicle that is propelled by fuel or by alternative fuel manufactured primarily for the use on public roads streets and highways and rated at less than 10000 pounds gross vehicle weight 
49 USC see 32901 
The term automobile includes an automobile rated at not more than 8500 pounds gross vehicle weight regardless of whether the secretary of transportation has proved this capter to the automobile under section 39901 of the title 49 USC see 32908 .
Now you see a motor vehicle is used for commercial purposes and is for profit .
The term traveler means a person who passes from place to place for any reason . Blacks law dictionary 9th edition .
The term driver means one employed in conducting a coach carriage wagon or other vehicle .
Bouvier law dictionary 6 th edition. The term driver license according to the law is defined as the state issued certificate authorizing a person to operate a motor vehicle .
Blacks law dictionary 9th edition .
Driving a motor vehicle is a privilege . In supreme court rulings for commercial purposes the highways are primarily for the use of public and in the interest of the public . The state may prohibit or regulate the use of the highways for personal gain . 
Barney V railroad commissioners .
17p - 2d82 . A citizen has the right to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property therein . That right does not extend to the use of the highways either in whole or in part as a place for private gain. For the letter purpose no person has a vested to use the highways of the state but is a privilege or a license which the legislature may grant or withhold at its discretion .
State vs Johnson 243 p 1073
The US supreme court is persistent on the matter ruling time and time again .Traveling in ones automobile for personal use to be an inherent right not to be regulated by the local state or federal legislators with the only exception being to regulate commerce upon the public roads and highways . 
Understand common law and inherent right . To travel by automobile we know now that a mandatory drivers license safety and administration registration and auto insurance applies only to those operating a motor vehicle for gain on the public street road and highways .
Many lawyers and bureaucrats will claim that no where in the constitution is it written that the people have the right to travel and they're absolutely right . However what they fail to understand is that the constitution wasn't written to limit the peoples rights . We the people wrote the constitution to limit the power of government . Although the right to travel doesn't derive directly from the Constitution it does derived from peoples common law .


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## mike taylor (Jan 2, 2016)

What all this crap means is if you say you are driving then you just screwed up . Drivers get paid travelers do not. The DMV articles say the same thing . Driver traveler to totally different things . Are you a US citizen ? If you where born here under law you are not one . If you where born here you are a state citizen to different things under law .
It's a whole lot to understand .


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## mike taylor (Jan 2, 2016)

You may think I don't but I do . The DMV wants you to have a licence they make money from you . The cop pulling you over tells you you have to have one . You better know what you are doing or you will pay the consequences. It's not easy to do .


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## mike taylor (Jan 2, 2016)

Why would you just close this thread ?


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## mike taylor (Jan 2, 2016)

O well who cares . Close away Sir !


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## Yvonne G (Jan 2, 2016)

What you've described sounds like the 4" rule: business can't sell turtles less than 4", but regular hobby people can. Joe Blow can drive without a license, but as soon as he starts driving for his job and making money for it he needs a license? 

This is all making my head hurt.


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## Tom (Jan 2, 2016)

jaizei said:


> And sorry, I'm still laughing. This post is l i t e r a l l y the best caricature of someone saying what you are saying possible.



Its obvious Mike is typing on a phone and not spending a lot of time proofreading, but you making fun of him is way out of line. Not cool.


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## jaizei (Jan 2, 2016)

Tom said:


> Its obvious Mike is typing on a phone and not spending a lot of time proofreading, but you making fun of him is way out of line. Not cool.




LOL you're adorable. He insults me and I'm out of line.

Also, not making fun of him.


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## jaizei (Jan 2, 2016)

jaizei said:


> LOL you're adorable. He insults me and I'm out of line.
> 
> Also, not making fun of him.




Actually trying to educate the guy. We are not talking about what we want, but what is the law and it is that you have to have a license to operate a motor vehicle on public roads.

Also, Mikes a big, tough construction worker, I'm not worried about hurting his feeling.


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## jaizei (Jan 2, 2016)

mike taylor said:


> The term motor vehicle means every description of carriage or other propelled or drawn by mechanical power used for commercial purpose on the highways in the transportation of passengers and property. 18 usc see 31
> The term used for commercial purposes means the carriage of persons for any fee .
> 18usc see 31
> The term automobile means a 4 wheeled vehicle that is propelled by fuel or by alternative fuel manufactured primarily for the use on public roads streets and highways and rated at less than 10000 pounds gross vehicle weight
> ...



http://www.goldismoney2.com/threads/right-to-travel-by-jacob-culliton.18834/

So you're just going to spam this nonsense? What happened to thinking for yourself?


Your definitions are not applicable. If you actually read the source that you are quoting, you would see that the definitions apply to the chapter they are in. Drivers license are at the state level, applicable definitions are in state laws. If your city passes a new law, applicable definitions as pertain to that law should be contained within it. You don't get to use the definitions that most suit you.


https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/31






I'm too busy to find the cases you referenced, since the way they are referenced doesn't help and they're copy/pasted on a ton a silly sites, to explain how they don't actually mean what they're being said to mean but will when I have time. Because I am actually reading the referenced material. A big, long list of quotes may impress you, but sadly, when you actually do the research yourself they all seem to fall apart.


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## mike taylor (Jan 2, 2016)

I'm doing the same thing you are doing . Because I have to . I thought I already explained myself on that .I don't have a law library at my disposal . Do you ? I trying to get people to understand . I never not once insulted you . I'm not a construction worker either . I'm a motor control programmer . With a Masters license . May I ask how I insulted you? Should I use a smiley emoticon ? I said one thing on this thread about drivers license and you jumped up and attacked me . I if I could link all the internet sites that discusses this I would but it seems everyone but you understands that . I can't add links so I have to type all the crap in . I like this because others will look into it and see you can do it . Is it practical nope Sure isn't . Can you do it yes . Can you get in trouble yes ,has people won cases on this yes . The supreme courts recognizes this is a right not a privilege .


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## mike taylor (Jan 2, 2016)

Tom said:


> Its obvious Mike is typing on a phone and not spending a lot of time proofreading, but you making fun of him is way out of line. Not cool.


Thanks Tom for your support . I'm a big boy .Yes Yvonne basically the same . In court you just can't use one reference . So you have to be fluent in laws . I'm no lawyer or a law student . I read and study on stuff the intrigues me .


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## mike taylor (Jan 2, 2016)

So are we are now keeping this open longer than 24 hours for your benefit ? Because I hang out with lawyers that I can and will get help from just like I did three years ago when I first seen this stuff on the webs and was thinking it was a bunch of crap .


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## ZEROPILOT (Jan 2, 2016)

I hold a Florida class A CDL license with several other endorsements yet I am certainly not the world's best driver.
I am a much more skilled motorcyclist than an auto or truck driver.
So simply taking tests doesn't make one a great anything.
The state got their money and now I can drive a big rig pulling a tanker of jet fuel.
I find the whole process to be little more than a joke.


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## mike taylor (Jan 2, 2016)

I'd rather ride my Harley than drive . It's all about money . You have to have time and money to fight in court . I'm not telling anyone to do this by no way would I do it . I'm say you can if you know how . I personally love that we have to have some kind of training to drive . The part I don't like is the hidden agenda . It's more than just licensing . If you drive without one and hurt someone the courts are going to nail you to a wall . I don't know how I made what's his name angry . I think this whole thing is going south .


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## Turtlepete (Jan 2, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> No it doesn't. All a driver's license in the US does is give identification on who you are to the cops when you f**k up. I was an over the road driver for 10 years or something, I pulled a 53'trailer in every state in the continental United States, ('cept Alaska) and I can tell you *MOST* drivers don't know how to avoid an accident that's about to happen, as they were never taught to actually handle a car. I know how to slide, do donuts (very important) and how to use speed to avoid an oncoming accident, instead of slamming on the brakes and having an accident. Speed wins every time. Most people *HAVE* to get in front of me, but then they don't want to go as fast as I was going. This right turn on Red, is HIGHLY misunderstood. You can only turn right against the red, WHEN NO ONE IS COMING.  That means that if you pull out in front of me in my red Camaro, sh!t is gonna rain all over you and your car. That is my biggest complaint. When these jerks slow me down, or make me put my foot on the brake it cost me gas mileage, hence, costs money, and causes road rage. That's one reason I mainly drive during hours that no one else is out. The store opens at 5 am, I'm there. I was taught to drive by a motor head, then I took Bob Bonderant's offensive driving course, and 8 months in truck driver school.



Holy crap. I'm amazed you aren't banned just for posting this. Thats so offensive! 

Regardless whether you do/don't need a license to drive, anyone who has ever driven south of West Palm Beach in Florida will be thankful that the acquisition of a drivers license is seen as a requirement. Or up in the redneck woods around Brooksville. Some of the drivers down here are the scariest thing I've ever seen, and I've seen the nude beaches around Daytona….


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## mike taylor (Jan 2, 2016)

I know what your saying about the nude beaches ! Hahaha That beach sucked !


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## mike taylor (Jan 2, 2016)

jaizei said:


> http://www.goldismoney2.com/threads/right-to-travel-by-jacob-culliton.18834/
> 
> So you're just going to spam this nonsense? What happened to thinking for yourself?
> 
> ...


You basically repeated everything thing I shortened so I could type it on my phone and I'm the pirate ? Thanks for the education . You sure told me stuff I already found . I'm finished with you and this thread good day Sir .


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## jaizei (Jan 3, 2016)

mike taylor said:


> Why would you just close this thread ?



Y'all are going off on tangents that are going to take the thread in a direction it doesn't need to go. I don't feel like babysitting it.

I made the thread from posts that were off topic to their original thread and could/should have otherwise been deleted. Splitting the posts seemed like a better option than. Closing it seems a better option than leaving it open as a liability. 





mike taylor said:


> I'm doing the same thing you are doing . Because I have to . I thought I already explained myself on that .I don't have a law library at my disposal . Do you ? I trying to get people to understand . I never not once insulted you . I'm not a construction worker either . I'm a motor control programmer . With a Masters license . May I ask how I insulted you? Should I use a smiley emoticon ? I said one thing on this thread about drivers license and you jumped up and attacked me . I if I could link all the internet sites that discusses this I would but it seems everyone but you understands that . I can't add links so I have to type all the crap in . I like this because others will look into it and see you can do it . Is it practical nope Sure isn't . Can you do it yes . Can you get in trouble yes ,has people won cases on this yes . The supreme courts recognizes this is a right not a privilege .




I wasn't insulted because it isn't possible for you to insult me. However, if someone starts in with 'standard TortoiseForum debate tactics 101', I'll point out that the post I was replying to was more insulting than my reply. Your post that started "of civil liberties" was basically just a bunch of assumptions about me. That's part of why your post was a 'caricature'. That's what people making your argument do: copy a bunch of nonsense you haven't actually verified and call the other person a 'follower'. 

You've made completely incorrect statements and I've pointed that out. I've gone out of my way not to attack you. I was trying to show you the errors of your ways and can't do that if I'm mocking you too much because then you'd be even less receptive.




mike taylor said:


> So are we are now keeping this open longer than 24 hours for your benefit ? Because I hang out with lawyers that I can and will get help from just like I did three years ago when I first seen this stuff on the webs and was thinking it was a bunch of crap .




How would it be for my benefit? I seem to be the only one here that understands this. Courts have ruled that you can be required to have a permit (license) to drive on public roads. I gave you the law in Texas that mandates licenses. You've given no actual evidence in support, other than the same snippets that are on 100's of sovereign sites. 

It will most likely be closed by the end of the day Sunday. I think giving notice and allowing anyone that wants to post an opportunity is more than fair. Not to say it can't be closed sooner if need be. 




mike taylor said:


> I don't know how I made what's his name angry . I think this whole thing is going south .




There is no anger....just disappointment. 






mike taylor said:


> You basically repeated everything thing I shortened so I could type it on my phone and I'm the pirate ? Thanks for the education . You sure told me stuff I already found . I'm finished with you and this thread good day Sir .




I was showing everyone that your post was 100% not your own thinking. You're the 'free thinker', remember? Good thing you're finished because it's apparent that this is a waste of time. Or more so, had a pretty good idea that it would be going in. You are just copying sovereign nonsense to the thread, and if you actually fact checked what you are copying you would see that it was nonsense.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jan 3, 2016)

I agree with Maggie that the tests should be harder.
I know nothing about the sovereign citizen thing.
It sounds like dangerous waters to me.


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## mike taylor (Jan 3, 2016)

It totally is dangerous waters . Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should . I get the same thing from people all the time on other matters . If you do your homework and know how to defend yourself in court you can get away with it . Most of these sovereign citizens have all the money they need to do what they want to do . So they spend the time and find loopholes in laws and test them with their freedom . Some get away with it some don't .I'm not telling anyone to drive without a license . My point on the whole thing is ... It's your right to travel . It's your privilege to drive . Two totally different things . To find out the Truth ask a lawyer if you know one . Go to the law library and look up case laws that are written not pulled of line . Think for yourself to find the truth . People are traveling right now without a license and getting away with it in courts right now . I don't agree we need more laws on how we live,travel ,or protect ourselves .


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 3, 2016)

Turtlepete said:


> Holy crap. I'm amazed you aren't banned just for posting this. Thats so offensive!
> 
> Regardless whether you do/don't need a license to drive, anyone who has ever driven south of West Palm Beach in Florida will be thankful that the acquisition of a drivers license is seen as a requirement. Or up in the redneck woods around Brooksville. Some of the drivers down here are the scariest thing I've ever seen, and I've seen the nude beaches around Daytona….



As someone who held a CDL I knew I was doing wrong. But I did keep insurance, if you are talking about driving without a license. I didn't say what I did was right, I just said I did it.
If you are talking about my opinion of how people drive? A license does not "teach" a person to really know how to make a decision in a second, or how to handle a car, if my opinion bothers you, I'm sorry. But I drive a lot, I was a professional driver, and I'm an American, so I am entitled to my opinion. I didn't say anything offensive.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 3, 2016)

ZEROPILOT said:


> I hold a Florida class A CDL license with several other endorsements yet I am certainly not the world's best driver.
> I am a much more skilled motorcyclist than an auto or truck driver.
> So simply taking tests doesn't make one a great anything.
> The state got their money and now I can drive a big rig pulling a tanker of jet fuel.
> I find the whole process to be little more than a joke.




I held a hazmat endorsement also, tankers etc. But I like to drive a car or big truck the way you and Mike are skilled and like to ride. So, I know and have proven I am a more skilled driver than 80% of the population. The 20% drive for NASCAR....In case it was missed, most of that last part was a joke.
But I will, and have put my driving skills up against anyone. People need to be taught how to think quicker, don't always hit the brakes, the test should be harder, yada yada yada.


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## mike taylor (Jan 3, 2016)

Drive it like you stole it isn't an option on a driving test ? Hmmmm that sure is something !


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## mike taylor (Jan 3, 2016)

T


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 3, 2016)

No, and you can keep making fun of me, but I belong to a grass roots group who are trying to make the actual talent of HANDLING a car and making quick decisions a requirement of getting a license. Oregon of course has to provide the schooling free just like they give away free food etc. Another Oregon program. But most people think they have a right to drive. But they don't and shouldn't...driving is a privilege and "should" be earned not given willy nilly. Another *****, There's a sign on most hiways that reads..." Slower traffic drive to the right" it doesn't read slower traffic drive to the right unless you're doing the speed limit. Another road rage thing. Don't hold traffic up, I don't give a flying **** if you are doing the speed limit. But if there's 5 cars behind you, or just me, either move over or I rudely go around you and scare you silly. I try to drive calmly and not have some jerk who is doing 50 in a 55 and when I pass him and cut him off, sorta (I just make him think that's what is was), but every jerk now has a cell phone, writes down your tag number and calls the darned cops on you. Takes so much fun out of driving. I must admit it used to be easier and more fun to be an a** to people before cell phones. lol 
Don't bother reporting me, if you don't get my attempt at some humor, ok, but I was mostly kidding, if you need to be told, cept for the part about the grassroots movement.


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## mike taylor (Jan 3, 2016)

I never claimed to be a skilled driver . I ride my Harley better than I drive . You make a mistake on a bike and you won't forget it . I turn into a monster in my truck that's why my wife drives and I play on my phone. Ha-ha


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## ZEROPILOT (Jan 3, 2016)

Maybe THAT is a common thread? 

My wife also does 90% of the driving


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## Prairie Mom (Jan 3, 2016)

Sorry, guys...I hope you'll still interact with me elsewhere on the forum, but I honestly can't believe this thread is still open.

To all Non US members: Please don't think that we all think in such extremes regarding government and law. We're a diverse group and most of our opinions rest somewhere in the middle ground. Most of the country tends to drive in the middle lane with occasional passes into the right and left lanes as we see fit.

To my friends in the South: While we acknowledge that all forms of racism exist and are prevalent far too often (and my family has certainly seen its share too!), we recognize entire groups of people in the South are not racist and that we are all composed of individuals with our own experiences.


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## mike taylor (Jan 3, 2016)

In the South is the only place you can be stuck in a ditch no matter what color you are and we will pull you out before the cops come . Then go have a beer and make fun of your no driving *** .


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## keepergale (Jan 3, 2016)

Prairie Mom said:


> Sorry, guys...I hope you'll still interact with me elsewhere on the forum, but I honestly can't believe this thread is still open.
> 
> To all Non US members: Please don't think that we all think in such extremes regarding government and law. We're a diverse group and most of our opinions rest somewhere in the middle ground. Most of the country tends to drive in the middle lane with occasional passes into the right and left lanes as we see fit.
> 
> ...


Holy Moly. I thought I was following this thread. How did racism pop up. Or the need to apologize for America.
Now for regular scheduled posting.
If people are interested in improving their driving skills(original subject) I would like to suggest trying AutoX.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 3, 2016)

So you are apologizing to the racists who treated me like crap?
and for the millionth time, that is not a Confederate Flag, it's a NASCAR flag, and I was treated less than in the South and I'll repeat it one hundred times. I personally am not a racist, and had never experienced racism until I was treated like crap in the South as a white woman driving a truck.
Think my dinner is ready....


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## mike taylor (Jan 3, 2016)

I've got nothing ? We went way south . No pun intended . I Live in Texas . I know the people in Texas are mostly very friendly . But then again I'm not a woman truck driver . I see what you are saying . We had truck drivers in and out of my house when I was a kid . My mom's pool company was next door . So truck drivers delivered pool supplies and tried to give my mom crap . But mom took care of it herself . Was funny to see her tell them off .


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