# Having more than one Cherryhead or Redfoot



## Candy

Just wanted to know people's thoughts on keeping multiple Redfoots (or Cherryheads with Redfoot's) together. Do any of you do this? Do you find that they need the company or maybe that they like being by themselves? If you do have multiple tortoises together do you find that the males fight? I'm just thinking of Dale being lonely in the winter and ever since Danny had put up his Redfoots for sale I've been tempted to get another one. I was thinking of getting him a male just for company or a friend. When I first saw him he was with 3 other tortoises and I wonder sometimes if he misses that. I didn't think that I wanted a female Cherryhead because I didn't want eggs, but eventually Dale's going to want to mate and I'm thinking that it's not fair not to let him do what comes naturally. Anyway I'll wait to see your posts.


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## Yvonne G

Naturally there's always the exception to every rule, but the rule is that tortoises are solitary animals and don't get "lonely" for others of their kind. They don't like to have to share the food or the best hiding place. Having said that, many of us DO keep more than one tortoise together. I have two males and one female Yellowfoot along with three babies that are now about 4 years old and almost ready to be put into the "big boy" pen. I have to separate the males because the larger one continually chases down the smaller one and pushes and shoves him. But the male and female get along just fine. You never know how two tortoises will get along together until you try it. Some make it ok and others just "vant to be alone!"

Yvonne


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## Candy

Thanks Yvonne that does make sense. I saw you Yellowfoots when you posted them and they looked so good together. I was just thinking that if I got another tortoise I guess I should stick with the species that I have already (especially Redfoots) because they require special treatment that I already have learned from you guys on this site. :shy:


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## Madkins007

In general- Cherry-head males are more aggressive towards each other than other Red-foot males are (one of many differences that makes many people think they are a different subspecies or species.) There are few reports of problems with multiple Red-foots, males or females or mixed, as long as you have room for them. 

Red-foots are not 'social' in the scientific sense of having a pecking order, social structure, etc. other than the biggest usually gets what he wants. HOWEVER, Red-foots ARE gregarious. They are often found together in the wild at fruit falls, in hides, and in mating areas. They are known to leave scent trails and other unrelated Red-foots will follow the trails, etc.

They seem to do about as well with or without company, but as a keeper, it is more fun (and not a lot more work) to raise a small herd than just one... again as long as you have the space.


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## cdmay

It is true that RFs can be kept alone with no problems. But having said that, they also do actively seek out others. I have a number of hide boxes located in my yard but usually there are at least two animals together each night. Sometimes there will even be three adults jammed into one hide box while another box, just like it is empty only a few feet away.
This same behavior has been observed in the wild by numerous authors (and friends of mine who report similar finds) who have found burrows and brush piles used over and over again by more than one adult RF at a time. This is in line with what Madkins007 stated above.
I have also kept individuals apart from the others from time to time for various reasons. When placed back with the group there is always some intense head bobbing (from both sexes) and the one that was isolated will ALWAYS follow the others around for some time afterwards. This leads me to think that in some way, they prefer to at least be 'around' others of their species.


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## Candy

Madkins007 said:


> In general- Cherry-head males are more aggressive towards each other than other Red-foot males are (one of many differences that makes many people think they are a different subspecies or species.) There are few reports of problems with multiple Red-foots, males or females or mixed, as long as you have room for them.
> 
> Red-foots are not 'social' in the scientific sense of having a pecking order, social structure, etc. other than the biggest usually gets what he wants. HOWEVER, Red-foots ARE gregarious. They are often found together in the wild at fruit falls, in hides, and in mating areas. They are known to leave scent trails and other unrelated Red-foots will follow the trails, etc.
> 
> They seem to do about as well with or without company, but as a keeper, it is more fun (and not a lot more work) to raise a small herd than just one... again as long as you have the space.



Thank you Madkins. That's very good information I always appreciate your input. 



cdmay said:


> It is true that RFs can be kept alone with no problems. But having said that, they also do actively seek out others. I have a number of hide boxes located in my yard but usually there are at least two animals together each night. Sometimes there will even be three adults jammed into one hide box while another box, just like it is empty only a few feet away.
> This same behavior has been observed in the wild by numerous authors (and friends of mine who report similar finds) who have found burrows and brush piles used over and over again by more than one adult RF at a time. This is in line with what Madkins007 stated above.
> I have also kept individuals apart from the others from time to time for various reasons. When placed back with the group there is always some intense head bobbing (from both sexes) and the one that was isolated will ALWAYS follow the others around for some time afterwards. This leads me to think that in some way, they prefer to at least be 'around' others of their species.



Having said that Carl do you (or Madkins) have Cherryheads and Redfoots together in an enclosure? Danny had said that he wouldn't put a female Redfoot with a male Cherryhead but it would be O.K. to put a male Redfoot with a male Cherryhead. I'm just trying to figure out what would be best and whether others have done this or are doing it now. Would it be better to get another Cherryhead or does it matter. And if Dale is almost 7 inches is he ready to breed with a Cherryhead female bigger or the same size? One more question....When you have two males and one female I take it they would fight over the female right?


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## cdmay

Candy, I think what Dan was getting at was that you want to prevent the two different races of redfoot from interbreeding. As these are distinct forms it is best not to muddy the captive waters with hatchlings that are not readily identifiable as one type or another.
So you could house two females of different races or two males, without the worry of mixed breeding going on.
As for male aggression in cherryheads my experiences differ from some others. For example I know of a breeder who has large numbers of adults all grouped together. He reports no aggression.
But as I have only kept two or three males at any time, all I get is male to male aggression. In fact, I recently placed a young male that I have raised from a small juvenile in the main yard with my long term male named Moe. Moe showed immediate interest in the new male and likewise the younger male began sniffing and head bobbing like crazy. But after a few minutes of this the younger male rushed in on Moe with his mouth open and tried to take off Moe's face. The old male then began bashing the new male's shell in like he wanted to kill him. Had I not been right there to separate them somebody would have been hurt.
This has happened every single time I have placed two established captive male cherryheads together. Sometimes it might take a day or two, but sooner or later they are going at it. 
I know that Mark and Allegra Fung-Lue have had mixed results with their cherryheads. They have numerous males and usually there is no fighting. But during the breeding season they do get males that are biting each other. 
My guess is that cherryheads might be like African cichlids. You can keep a bare 50 gallon aquarium full of adults of mixed sexes and they don't kill each other. But try and keep two pairs in that same tank and throw in some rocks for them to establish territories on and you will likely end up with one fish. That one fish will have killed the other three.
So I would say that if you are only going to keep a couple of cherryheads, I would NOT recommend them being two males.
Lastly, at 7 inches Dale is just now becoming sexually mature. But a 7 inch female cherryhead is not ready to breed. Find a larger female. Sooner or later Dale will grow to be large enough to breed her.


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## Candy

cdmay said:


> Candy, I think what Dan was getting at was that you want to prevent the two different races of redfoot from interbreeding. As these are distinct forms it is best not to muddy the captive waters with hatchlings that are not readily identifiable as one type or another.
> So you could house two females of different races or two males, without the worry of mixed breeding going on.
> As for male aggression in cherryheads my experiences differ from some others. For example I know of a breeder who has large numbers of adults all grouped together. He reports no aggression.
> But as I have only kept two or three males at any time, all I get is male to male aggression. In fact, I recently placed a young male that I have raised from a small juvenile in the main yard with my long term male named Moe. Moe showed immediate interest in the new male and likewise the younger male began sniffing and head bobbing like crazy. But after a few minutes of this the younger male rushed in on Moe with his mouth open and tried to take off Moe's face. The old male then began bashing the new male's shell in like he wanted to kill him. Had I not been right there to separate them somebody would have been hurt.
> This has happened every single time I have placed two established captive male cherryheads together. Sometimes it might take a day or two, but sooner or later they are going at it.
> I know that Mark and Allegra Fung-Lue have had mixed results with their cherryheads. They have numerous males and usually there is no fighting. But during the breeding season they do get males that are biting each other.
> My guess is that cherryheads might be like African cichlids. You can keep a bare 50 gallon aquarium full of adults of mixed sexes and they don't kill each other. But try and keep two pairs in that same tank and throw in some rocks for them to establish territories on and you will likely end up with one fish. That one fish will have killed the other three.
> So I would say that if you are only going to keep a couple of cherryheads, I would NOT recommend them being two males.
> Lastly, at 7 inches Dale is just now becoming sexually mature. But a 7 inch female cherryhead is not ready to breed. Find a larger female. Sooner or later Dale will grow to be large enough to breed her.



Thank you so much Carl that explains everything to me that I've been wondering about. Now do you have any larger Cherryhead females for sale for Dale?  I will be looking for a female soon because I just think Dale could use the company. I actually don't know their mating season. I would think it would be in the spring, but I'm not sure or do they breed at anytime of year. So far I only am experienced at dogs and cats and cockatiels not tortoises.


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## DoctorCosmonaut

I do remember reading (sorry I forgot where... I'll look for it) that groups of them were found deep in the Amazonian rain forest


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## Candy

DoctorCosmonaut said:


> I do remember reading (sorry I forgot where... I'll look for it) that groups of them were found deep in the Amazonian rain forest



I'd love for you to find that so I could read it also, thanks.


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## cdmay

There are a few papers written that describe redfoots being found togther.
These are the northern types or the Chaco form and not cherryheads though.
The most complete study that I know if is Moskovits. I think the title is "The Behavior and Ecology of the two Amazonian Tortoises, Geochelone carbonaria and Geochelone denticulata, in Northwestern Brazil".


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## Madkins007

cdmay said:


> There are a few papers written that describe redfoots being found togther.
> These are the northern types or the Chaco form and not cherryheads though.
> The most complete study that I know if is Moskovits. I think the title is "The Behavior and Ecology of the two Amazonian Tortoises, Geochelone carbonaria and Geochelone denticulata, in Northwestern Brazil".



We also have the field reports of the Vinke's- "The turtle and tortoise fauna of the central Chaco of Paraguay" (online at http://www.chelidae.com/pdf/vinke2001.pdf) and "An Unusual Survival Strategy of the Red-Footed Tortoise Geochelone carbonaria in the Chaco Boreal of Paraguay" (in Spanish at www.chaco-wildlife.org/de/about-us/articles.htm. If you Google it, it can translate it for you)

These might be of special interest to you since the Cherry-head (Brazilian red color morph) seems to be more closely related to the tortoises from the Grand Chaco area than they are to the Northern Red-foots- they share a mostly dark plastron, many habitat similarities, the tendency for the adult male to not have a wasp-waist, etc.


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## cdmay

We also have the field reports of the Vinke's- "The turtle and tortoise fauna of the central Chaco of Paraguay" (online at http://www.chelidae.com/pdf/vinke2001.pdf) and "An Unusual Survival Strategy of the Red-Footed Tortoise Geochelone carbonaria in the Chaco Boreal of Paraguay" (in Spanish at www.chaco-wildlife.org/de/about-us/articles.htm. If you Google it, it can translate it for you)

Thanks. I have both of those in English as they were published---with color photos--in RADIATA magazine a couple of years ago.


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## Madkins007

Actually CDMay- I meant that for Candy. I would bet that YOUR article library is bigger than mine (sniff, sniff )

Hmmm, maybe somewhere, somehow we could figure out a way to help each other fill in each other's libraries?


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## Candy

Thank you Madkins and Carl. So what you're saying is that the Chaco is closely related to the Cherryhead more so than the Redfoot and that's why you gave me these sites am I right? Their habitat from what I was reading and looking at the pictures is not what I expected. I expected to see more of a rainforest not open land as the pictures show. Interesting. I still have to read some more I only scanned over it. Thanks for posting it for me to read. 

Carl I don't think you read my post asking you if you had any female Cherryheads for sale old enough for Dale? Do you or do you know where I could get one? If not I might just have to wait till May or June of next year because it's getting to cold to ship them now.


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## cdmay

Candy, no I don't have any females for sale. But they do appear from time to time.


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## harris

I'm somewhat surprised not to hear anyone mention flipping issues?? I keep mine together and seperate. I switch each other out occasionally amongst themselves, and personally have never experienced any aggression. But they flip each other over occasionally. They'll cross paths and the one that gets "t-boned" is the one that ends up on it's back.


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## Madkins007

Flipping- I only have this happen rarely when they try to pass each other in tight spaces, such as crowding around the food dish (I usually spread the food out for enrichment and to prevent crowding, but that is hard to do in the old inside habitat.)

Candy- While there are not a lot of good studies on Cherry-heads in the field that I know of, there are two 'farms' in their range that keep them. The websites show some really interesting habitat. 

- http://www.geochelone.com.br/usa/index.cfm (Check out the pics)
- http://www.carbonaria.com/index.html (not as much, but interesting)

The thing about both sites that really fascinates me is that they are showing Cherry-heads and making no special mention of them. On the 'characteristics' page of the first site, they mention that Red-foots come in two color forms- red and yellow (but different from the Yellow-foot.) The red form is called the Cherry-head in the US. In other words, we are making a big deal out of something they consider perfectly commonplace.

(Note- you'll quickly note that the English translation has a few quirks. For some odd reason, the term 'hoof' seems to be used for the shell.)


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## cdmay

- Madkins007:
The thing about both sites that really fascinates me is that they are showing Cherry-heads and making no special mention of them. On the 'characteristics' page of the first site, they mention that Red-foots come in two color forms- red and yellow (but different from the Yellow-foot.) The red form is called the Cherry-head in the US. In other words, we are making a big deal out of something they consider perfectly commonplace.

Yes, this is true. It is also one of the reasons that most people now agree that the 'cherryhead' form of redfoot must be native to that region of Brazil since the locals don't seem to recognize that they are different from the RFs in other parts of Brazil.


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## -EJ

What about the blood red headed ones that I believe come from Venezuela...




cdmay said:


> - Madkins007:
> The thing about both sites that really fascinates me is that they are showing Cherry-heads and making no special mention of them. On the 'characteristics' page of the first site, they mention that Red-foots come in two color forms- red and yellow (but different from the Yellow-foot.) The red form is called the Cherry-head in the US. In other words, we are making a big deal out of something they consider perfectly commonplace.
> 
> Yes, this is true. It is also one of the reasons that most people now agree that the 'cherryhead' form of redfoot must be native to that region of Brazil since the locals don't seem to recognize that they are different from the RFs in other parts of Brazil.


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## EricIvins

-EJ said:


> What about the blood red headed ones that I believe come from Venezuela...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cdmay said:
> 
> 
> 
> - Madkins007:
> The thing about both sites that really fascinates me is that they are showing Cherry-heads and making no special mention of them. On the 'characteristics' page of the first site, they mention that Red-foots come in two color forms- red and yellow (but different from the Yellow-foot.) The red form is called the Cherry-head in the US. In other words, we are making a big deal out of something they consider perfectly commonplace.
> 
> Yes, this is true. It is also one of the reasons that most people now agree that the 'cherryhead' form of redfoot must be native to that region of Brazil since the locals don't seem to recognize that they are different from the RFs in other parts of Brazil.
Click to expand...


I've never seen any red head Northern come out of Venezuela, but I have seen them come out of the Ripinuni flood plain in Guyana. Ed Ruby has a Male that I picked out of a group from the Ripinuni. That animal is an incredible Northern, but from what Ed's told me, he's really shy and reclusive, and wont go near the Females.............


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## DoctorCosmonaut

I think people already found it for ya


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## cdmay

-EJ said:


> What about the blood red headed ones that I believe come from Venezuela...
> 
> EJ, there are more characteristics besides a red head that make the 'cherryheads' distinct.
> I too have seen solid red headed animals from pretty much everywhere over the years just as I have seen solid yellow headed animals. But it takes more than just a red head to identify that population.
> It would be like saying "What about the gigantic redfoots that sometimes come out of Suriname? Does that make then the same as Bolivians?"


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## -EJ

I know.

My comment was just an observation.



cdmay said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> What about the blood red headed ones that I believe come from Venezuela...
> 
> EJ, there are more characteristics besides a red head that make the 'cherryheads' distinct.
> I too have seen solid red headed animals from pretty much everywhere over the years just as I have seen solid yellow headed animals. But it takes more than just a red head to identify that population.
> It would be like saying "What about the gigantic redfoots that sometimes come out of Suriname? Does that make then the same as Bolivians?"
Click to expand...


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## Candy

Madkins, I can't believe how big those Redfoots look in the pictures. They look huge do they get that big? And their heads are so red. And if anyone looks at the site that Madkins put up the Redfoots are being fed tomatoes and a lot of them and I even saw a whole apple thrown in there (what about the seeds). I guess males do get a long because there's a lot of Redfoots on that farm. Thanks for the site.



cdmay said:


> Candy, no I don't have any females for sale. But they do appear from time to time.



Too bad Carl. I know I would get a good one from you. Anyway if you see any let me know. Thanks.


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## Meg90

Have you checked turtletary? 

I think you would be a great tort mom to another baby. Dale is spoiled rotten! Its FUN to have more than one! And you really know your stuff now.


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## -EJ

I'm sorry... I don't know why I got a giggle out of this.

To clarify... terry learned from those who have posted in this thread.



Meg90 said:


> Have you checked turtletary?
> 
> I think you would be a great tort mom to another baby. Dale is spoiled rotten! Its FUN to have more than one! And you really know your stuff now.


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## Redfoot NERD

-EJ said:


> I'm sorry... I don't know why I got a giggle out of this.
> 
> To clarify... terry learned from those who have posted in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Meg90 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you checked turtletary?
> 
> I think you would be a great tort mom to another baby. Dale is spoiled rotten! Its FUN to have more than one! And you really know your stuff now.
Click to expand...


Maybe we should let her say where she learned?


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## Yvonne G

Redfoot NERD said:


> Maybe we should let her say where she learned?



I thought he was referring to Terry K as having learned from those posting on this site. No?

Yvonne


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## Meg90

I was referring to the comment about Candy WANTING to get another redfoot.

I am staying out of all the technical stuff. So, giggle a way, I guess.


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## Redfoot NERD

emysemys said:


> Redfoot NERD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe we should let her say where she learned?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought he was referring to Terry K as having learned from those posting on this site. No?
> 
> Yvonne
Click to expand...


Ed may have Yvonne.. but he knows better than that. I do credit Carl M.. Richard F.. and Ed P on the Redfoots.com site.

I still wonder why credit is 'seldom' given by some of these that post most often here?

Carl M ( cdmay ) was *most* helpful [ before Tortoiseforum.org even existed ] beginning with incubating eggs in the fall of '04!

Richard F ( RIPARIAN FARMS - Ivory Sulcata ) for the wisdom of *NOT* over-supplementing hatchlings/yearlings.

Ed P ( EJ ) for a combination of things??? 

And after a disastrous first 3-4 years or so with my first hatchlings (that became breeders) [ '98 - '02 ] following "other" caresheets [ paint-all-tortoises-with-the-same-brush type ] and talking with breeders that NEVER post on any forums.. the Turtletary caresheet evolved.. only AFTER RESEARCHING WITH THOSE THAT KNOW.. and have done it in their backyards for 20+ years.

For whatever that's worth Yvonne.

Terry K


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## Redfoot NERD

cdmay said:


> - Madkins007:
> The thing about both sites that really fascinates me is that they are showing Cherry-heads and making no special mention of them. On the 'characteristics' page of the first site, they mention that Red-foots come in two color forms- red and yellow (but different from the Yellow-foot.) The red form is called the Cherry-head in the US. In other words, we are making a big deal out of something they consider perfectly commonplace.
> 
> Yes, this is true. It is also one of the reasons that most people now agree that the 'cherryhead' form of redfoot must be native to that region of Brazil since the locals don't seem to recognize that they are different from the RFs in other parts of Brazil.



Mark [ from all of the research that you do ] you no doubt know that this "Cherryhead" thing (conceived by a number of guys many years back [ PET FARM - Florida ] as a MARKETING ploy to sell a different *looking * redfoot tortoise.. here in the USA! Rob Roy [ Glades Herp ] as far as we know still has a few from the early shipments.

Those from Brazil know them as just REDFOOT tortoises.

I received this in an email from a 'pet' redfoot owner from Rio.. ( SE Brazil coast ) [ clic 2X to get full-size view ]







What a beauty.. huh?

Not once did she refer to her as anything other than a redfoot!

Terry K


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## cdmay

Holy crap! That is a beauty.
She belongs here in Florida.


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## Redfoot NERD

Part of the FIRST email..

Hi

My name is Maria Fernanda and ÃƒÂ'm writing from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
Believe it or not, I couldnÃ‚Â´t find useful information on Redfoots anywhere else...
Your website is simple but very useful.
IÃ‚Â´ve just found you caresheet ... I'm reading right now...
Anyway, the Redfoot tortoise (Jabuti Piranga in Portuguese) and the Yellow foot tortoise (Jabuti Tinga) are my favorite animals and IÃ‚Â´m very pround we have these animals in my country.
I have one female and 3 males (one of the males is a Yellow foot). Females are quite rare among the speciments kept as pets. 
Two of them, the female (Her name is Quebradinha) and one of the red foot males His name is Valdemar), have been with me from a very young age, although I canÃ‚Â´t tell you their exact age when they were given to me as a present from my older brother. But they were very small, perhaps a few months old, back in 1999.

My female laid 4 eggs. She's ten years old, 2.360 kg. I'm not sure this is the first time she's laid eggs (since she spent 4 years with my friend). I think it is. The eggs look just like ping-pong balls: very round and very white (apart from the dirt)

I agree Carl.. a beauty..






.. a closer look..






It was quite an education!

Terry K


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## cdmay

That is a nice looking animal for sure. I have always found the orange headed 'cherryheads' (yes, I still hate that stupid name) to be more attractive than the red headed ones.
It isn't surprising that the Brazilian keeper refers to her tortoises as redfoots and not cherryheads or some other name. Cherryheads ARE redfoots--- But clearly a very different form from the redfoots from Surinam and Guyana, Colombia and Venezuela and the big Chaco tortoises of Bolivia and Paraguay. I have no doubt that they represent a subspecies of C. carbonaria and that someday they will be recognized as such.
In addition, the name cherryhead is mostly a US term that was coined by dealers in the 80s as was mentioned above. You wouldn't expect a person in Brazil to call them cherryheads as that name would have no meaning to them. The same goes for the average person and box turtles here in the United States. A person in Louisiana catches and keeps a three toed box turtle. But they would still most likely call it a box turtle---not a three toed just like it is doubtful that someone in the Florida peninsula would refer to their Florida box turtle by that name. To most people, a box turtle is just a box turtle even though there are many subspecies that are clearly different from one another.


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## Madkins007

We Americans DO like our marketing terms, don't we? Sigh.


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## Redfoot NERD

Candy said:


> Madkins, I can't believe how big those Redfoots look in the pictures. They look huge do they get that big? And their heads are so red. And if anyone looks at the site that Madkins put up the Redfoots are being fed tomatoes and a lot of them and I even saw a whole apple thrown in there (what about the seeds). I guess males do get a long because there's a lot of Redfoots on that farm. Thanks for the site.
> 
> 
> 
> cdmay said:
> 
> 
> 
> Candy, no I don't have any females for sale. But they do appear from time to time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Too bad Carl. I know I would get a good one from you. Anyway if you see any let me know. Thanks.
Click to expand...




Candy I asked a friend [ earlier this year ] from Sao Paolo(sp?), South America.. [ SW of Rio ] about those tomatoes. She told me those are actually a fruit like cherries.. very sweet and high in vitamin C. Not real tart.. her redfoots love them.

And "most" of the FOREST and rich soil in Brazil in now inhabited by humans and their farms! So maybe the redfoots there [ near that "farm" ] have been pushed out into the low scrub-savanna/desert lands???

FWIW

Terry K


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## Madkins007

I don't know the actual range of the Brazilian 'red color morph' Red-foot Tortoise in detail, but most reports seem to put it them the eastern bulge of Brazil. According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Brazil), this is driest part of Brazil and tends towards scrub and thorn forest. It is very hot on the northern tip and gets cooler as you move south- at the far south, outside of what seems to their range, it sometimes freezes in the cold season.

This habitat sounds a lot like the Gran Chaco, which is probably why Brazilian and Paraguayan torts are so similar in some respects, and why Yellow-foots are found so infrequently there (http://emys.geo.orst.edu/cgi-bin/emysmap?tn=139&cf=ijklmno).


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## allegraf

The little tomatoes are actually surinam cherries. We planted a tree in our enclosure for the torts, the problem is that the fruits are sweet and tangy and my neice loves eating them too! 

Back to the original topic, at one time we had three males. Two of my males get along great and seem to just take turns with the girls. When we introduced the third male, who was bigger than the other two, he quickly established his dominance and started with a warning. He then followed with a quick bite or two. After a few days, he was king of the enclosure. Sadly our big male died when we went to the Daytona show. So the two males are back to equally sharing the kingdom. 

We did get another male who is currently in quarantine. He is about the same size of the two males. It will be interesting to see how that introduction goes. Needless to say, we will be expanding our enclosure very soon. 

Allegra

Sorry, I meant BARBADOS CHERRIES not the surinam cherries.


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## Candy

Thanks Allegraf and Terry that makes more sense than tomatoes. But now where do I get those cherries from? Allegraf where do you live? I have never heard of that cherry before and now I want to get some for Dale (he's getting very spoiled with fruit). The rainforests that I saw in the pictures from Madkins does not look like any rainforest that I've imagined before. It actually looks pretty dry where they live. I imagined a rainforest to be raining all of the time and very green. I want to know peoples takes on this. Do they like it wet or dryer when they're big like what is in the pictures?


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## Madkins007

Candy: Wild Red-foot habitat includes a lot of places that are not rainforest. Even in Venezuela, they are generally found at least as often on the grassy savannahs as in the deep forest. Southern Red-foots and Red-foots from Eastern Brazil live in places that are generally a lot drier and have more variable temperatures than the rain forest does (even in these areas, they are generally found in the greener areas).

They seem perfectly willing to exploit more open areas, from natural openings to natural savannahs, to places opened up by agriculture. This sort of feeds into the debate of what sort of habitat they prefer- rainforest or edge. When you look at range maps, you see that the Red-foot's habitat sort of 'circles' the Yellow-foot habitat- the deeper we go into the rainforest, the more Yellow-foots you seem to find.


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## Candy

Madkins007 said:


> Candy: Wild Red-foot habitat includes a lot of places that are not rainforest. Even in Venezuela, they are generally found at least as often on the grassy savannahs as in the deep forest. Southern Red-foots and Red-foots from Eastern Brazil live in places that are generally a lot drier and have more variable temperatures than the rain forest does (even in these areas, they are generally found in the greener areas).
> 
> They seem perfectly willing to exploit more open areas, from natural openings to natural savannahs, to places opened up by agriculture. This sort of feeds into the debate of what sort of habitat they prefer- rainforest or edge. When you look at range maps, you see that the Red-foot's habitat sort of 'circles' the Yellow-foot habitat- the deeper we go into the rainforest, the more Yellow-foots you seem to find.



So have you found whether or not the older ones need that much humidity? Or is it just the younger ones?


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## allegraf

Candy,

We got ours from a local plant show in south Florida. Every now and then, Home Depot has them. Our tree seems to be easy to grow, they like alot of sun. Good luck!

Allegra


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## Redfoot NERD

Madkins007 said:


> Candy: Wild Red-foot habitat includes a lot of places that are not rainforest. Even in Venezuela, they are generally found at least as often on the grassy savannahs as in the deep forest. Southern Red-foots and Red-foots from Eastern Brazil live in places that are generally a lot drier and have more variable temperatures than the rain forest does (even in these areas, they are generally found in the greener areas).
> 
> They seem perfectly willing to exploit more open areas, from natural openings to natural savannahs, to places opened up by agriculture. This sort of feeds into the debate of what sort of habitat they prefer- rainforest or edge. When you look at range maps, you see that the Red-foot's habitat sort of 'circles' the Yellow-foot habitat- the deeper we go into the rainforest, the more Yellow-foots you seem to find.



Where did you find this info Mark? Let's give credit where credit is due. 

I wonder who started the idea that redfoots live IN the rainforest in the first place? It is the yellowfoots that live IN the forest.. according to friends from Venezuela. Look at the size difference of the yellowfoot and redfoot. I'm talking NORTH of the Amazon now. 

Let's also be practical for everyone's sake.. and not start talking extremes and exceptions - which just makes things more confusing than some choose to make them.

Terry K



Candy said:


> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Candy: Wild Red-foot habitat includes a lot of places that are not rainforest. Even in Venezuela, they are generally found at least as often on the grassy savannahs as in the deep forest. Southern Red-foots and Red-foots from Eastern Brazil live in places that are generally a lot drier and have more variable temperatures than the rain forest does (even in these areas, they are generally found in the greener areas).
> 
> They seem perfectly willing to exploit more open areas, from natural openings to natural savannahs, to places opened up by agriculture. This sort of feeds into the debate of what sort of habitat they prefer- rainforest or edge. When you look at range maps, you see that the Red-foot's habitat sort of 'circles' the Yellow-foot habitat- the deeper we go into the rainforest, the more Yellow-foots you seem to find.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So have you found whether or not the older ones need that much humidity? Or is it just the younger ones?
Click to expand...


Candy my observations indicate that younger ones tend to "hide" more.. which leads me to believe that that means they 'naturally' acquire the needed "humid-hide" which gets and keeps the carapace growing as it should!

During summer months I do choose to run the sprinkler system at least every other day to keep the outdoor enclosures [ 6" and larger - Northerns and Brazilians ] with several "puddles" which the adults also seem to enjoy..







You've heard the term "Muddy-torts"?

So given the opportunity ALL ages enjoy the humidity!

Terry K


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## -EJ

Lets check out some of the TT yahoo groups archives... That was just me trying to be argumentative.

It even took you until not too long ago to accept this description.

As to humid hides... look that one up also... another once argumentative point.



Redfoot NERD said:


> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Candy: Wild Red-foot habitat includes a lot of places that are not rainforest. Even in Venezuela, they are generally found at least as often on the grassy savannahs as in the deep forest. Southern Red-foots and Red-foots from Eastern Brazil live in places that are generally a lot drier and have more variable temperatures than the rain forest does (even in these areas, they are generally found in the greener areas).
> 
> They seem perfectly willing to exploit more open areas, from natural openings to natural savannahs, to places opened up by agriculture. This sort of feeds into the debate of what sort of habitat they prefer- rainforest or edge. When you look at range maps, you see that the Red-foot's habitat sort of 'circles' the Yellow-foot habitat- the deeper we go into the rainforest, the more Yellow-foots you seem to find.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you find this info Mark? Let's give credit where credit is due.
> 
> I wonder who started the idea that redfoots live IN the rainforest in the first place? It is the yellowfoots that live IN the forest.. according to friends from Venezuela. Look at the size difference of the yellowfoot and redfoot. I'm talking NORTH of the Amazon now.
> 
> Let's also be practical for everyone's sake.. and not start talking extremes and exceptions - which just makes things more confusing than some choose to make them.
> 
> Terry K
> 
> 
> 
> Candy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Candy: Wild Red-foot habitat includes a lot of places that are not rainforest. Even in Venezuela, they are generally found at least as often on the grassy savannahs as in the deep forest. Southern Red-foots and Red-foots from Eastern Brazil live in places that are generally a lot drier and have more variable temperatures than the rain forest does (even in these areas, they are generally found in the greener areas).
> 
> They seem perfectly willing to exploit more open areas, from natural openings to natural savannahs, to places opened up by agriculture. This sort of feeds into the debate of what sort of habitat they prefer- rainforest or edge. When you look at range maps, you see that the Red-foot's habitat sort of 'circles' the Yellow-foot habitat- the deeper we go into the rainforest, the more Yellow-foots you seem to find.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So have you found whether or not the older ones need that much humidity? Or is it just the younger ones?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Candy my observations indicate that younger ones tend to "hide" more.. which leads me to believe that that means they 'naturally' acquire the needed "humid-hide" which gets and keeps the carapace growing as it should!
> 
> During summer months I do choose to run the sprinkler system at least every other day to keep the outdoor enclosures [ 6" and larger - Northerns and Brazilians ] with several "puddles" which the adults also seem to enjoy..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've heard the term "Muddy-torts"?
> 
> So given the opportunity ALL ages enjoy the humidity!
> 
> Terry K
Click to expand...


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## terryo

TT Yahoo groups.....their way or the wrong way. Pleaseeeeeeeeeee!!


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## -EJ

It might seem that way as expressed by the more zelous members... Terryo... the one from the UK... I'll remember that one.



terryo said:


> TT Yahoo groups.....their way or the wrong way. Pleaseeeeeeeeeee!!


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## terryo

There are some very nice people over there Ed, but there is one or two that will jump down your throat. Also I don't think it is right to talk about someone, if the person isn't even allowed on the forum to defiend themselves. But I don't argue with anyone...I am a peace maker. I usually just lurk...to learn.
There is another forum that won't let you give the name of other fourms or sites that might really help someone. Everyone is here to learn or help other people if they can. So again I just lurk over there ...to learn some more.


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## Madkins007

Redfoot NERD said:


> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Candy: Wild Red-foot habitat includes a lot of places that are not rainforest. Even in Venezuela, they are generally found at least as often on the grassy savannahs as in the deep forest. Southern Red-foots and Red-foots from Eastern Brazil live in places that are generally a lot drier and have more variable temperatures than the rain forest does (even in these areas, they are generally found in the greener areas).
> 
> They seem perfectly willing to exploit more open areas, from natural openings to natural savannahs, to places opened up by agriculture. This sort of feeds into the debate of what sort of habitat they prefer- rainforest or edge. When you look at range maps, you see that the Red-foot's habitat sort of 'circles' the Yellow-foot habitat- the deeper we go into the rainforest, the more Yellow-foots you seem to find.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you find this info Mark? Let's give credit where credit is due.
> (snip)
> Terry K
Click to expand...




Several sources- Pritchard "Turtles of Venezuela", Vinke & Vetter "South American Tortoises", the Wikipedia entry for Redfoots, and EMYSystem for the range map. (Red-foots at http://emys.geo.orst.edu/cgi-bin/emysmap?tn=137&cf=ijklmno)

I really like EMYSYSTEM- it uses actual coordinates to pretty precisely point out where actual animals have been found. It has its own set of flaws- it takes what are often old and inaccurate museum tags at face value, but at least it pinpoints sites rather than showing vague ranges. It also tends to show more data around cities, research stations, etc. where more collecting is done.

The data on the eastern part of Brazil came from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Brazil


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## Candy

Wow! Great information Madkins the maps are great to look at. I kind of feel like I'm in school here. There is a lot of things to look up with those sites that you listed that I didn't realize. Thanks.


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