# Theory on the cause of pyramiding



## Leroy's_homeboy (Nov 7, 2011)

First off, I apologize if something similar to this has been posted before. I am by no means an expert in the subject of pyramiding, and I am quite new to keeping a tortoise, as I received my first (and only) in early August. Also, I have no formal knowledge regarding chelonian anatomy and "how things work" so to speak. I debated for a bit as to whether I should create this thread, and finally I decided that it couldn't hurt.

Earlier today I was soaking my Russian, and while examining the new growth on his shell I noticed that it (the new growth) was not quite flush with the existing, hardened scutes. I attributed this to the possibility that he may be slightly dehydrated, and due to being so, his newest growth ring is a bit constricted. Now, if this growth ring were to harden off before my tortoise could receive adequate hydration, and before the new growth could "engorge", it could lead to a vertically tapered scute, right? Over time this problem could compound itself, forcing established growth further and further upwards as new growth is put on.

This would correlate with the theory that hydration is *THE* determining factor regarding pyramiding. I've seen photographs of tortoises with pyramiding shells where the pyramids are "stepped"...perhaps this is due to periods of adequate hydration interrupting periods of dehydration, causing a spurt of flush growth?

As I mentioned earlier, I'm quite new to all of this, so forgive me if this theory has been proposed before, or if I'm pointing out the obvious...or if I'm waaaaayyyyy out in left field wandering around in circles, so to speak. That being said, any thoughts?


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## Yvonne G (Nov 7, 2011)

You must not have been following Tom's threads on how to prevent pyramiding. They're in the African tortoise section.


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## Weda737 (Nov 7, 2011)

Astute observation there.


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## Kristina (Nov 8, 2011)

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread...and-Babies?highlight=pyramiding#axzz1d8qum5Dd

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-End-Of-Pyramiding?highlight=pyramiding#axzz1d8qum5Dd

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread...e-Leopards?highlight=pyramiding#axzz1d8qum5Dd

Just to start. There are also many threads by other authors on this subject.


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## jaizei (Nov 8, 2011)

Another...
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-pyramiding--13106#axzz1dA2NEyRk


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## dmmj (Nov 8, 2011)

You know we go round and round sometimes on this subject. The best theory I have seen/heard on why hydration helps prevents pyramiding, is that it sort of lubes the scutes allowing them to grow.All I can say is that I have seen hatchlings raised in dry conditions and ones raised in humid (or in toms case almost swap like) conditions and by far the humid raised ones look the best.
My 2 cents.


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## Madkins007 (Nov 8, 2011)

I'm going to disagree with the 'water solves everything' school of pyramiding to a certain extent.

There are several things going on in a living shell. Bone is growing, as is keratin and other tissues. They are nourished by the diet and sunlight, water and exercise, etc. The normal growth pattern of a tortoise is cyclical- good food supply alternating with low food supply. This is why they grow rings.

In captivity, we offer foods that are richer and lower in calcium than wild diets, and we almost never offer a 'low food supply season' so they are always growing. We put them in warm boxes with overhead heating that can easily turn the habitat into either a desert or sauna depending on the humidity and air flow. We limit the exercise to a much smaller space than the wild range, etc. etc., etc.

Mike Pingleton (http://tortoiselibrary.com/pyramiding.html) and Andy Highfield (http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html) are among those that think that a better bone-building diet and aiming for slow growth (among other general care improvements INCLUDING appropriate humidity levels for the species) may be the real key.


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## Tom (Nov 8, 2011)

Cody, its so hard to visualize something so complex from typed words, but your theory does make sense to me and I think it does fit in with the theories I propose and support. Here's a thread I did a while back. See if it makes any sense in relation to your theory.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Carapace-Like-A-Sponge#axzz1dBBLetIp

Mark, Each of your paragraphs make good points. However, I feel compelled to argue that I, and others, have repeatedly dispelled the "fast growth is always bad" theory. I don't think the striving for slow growth on purpose theory makes any sense anymore. I think the "slow growth theory" should have been thrown out with the "protein causes pyramiding", "they get all their water from their food", and "desert tortoise babies need it hot and dry" theories. There are just so many examples on the forum now of "fast" growing yearlings that are totally smooth and healthy. Maybe this is a topic for another thread...?


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## Neal (Nov 9, 2011)

With all due respect, while we may have dispelled the "fast growth is bad" theory...I don't think we should toss out the "slow growth" theory so quickly...at least not until we can compare the health of these animals years down the road. What you are doing Tom and others with the fast growth, does not prove that slow growth is bad or less beneficial. Fast growth may not appear to cause any issues now, but 10 years...20 years...we'll just have to wait. 

I have a couple of my slowly grown tortoises here that are now full sized adults. They are very strong and healthy tortoises, but if that was because they were raised slowly...I can't say...but they were raised slowly and I have yet to hear any real side effects of growing tortoises slowly.

This is just for the sake of debate, I strive for a "median level" of growth. Not too fast, not too slow. Of course, it's all relative.

Sorry to be OT...didn't want to confuse anyone starting a new thread, but maybe a moderator could move things around?


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## Madkins007 (Nov 10, 2011)

Tom- I apologize for falling into a linguistic trap I have fallen into before. I used 'slow growth' as short hand for a growth pattern that allows all systems to grow in a coordinated fashion.

However, like Neal, I am not quite ready to toss the 'slow is good' idea. I would love to see more information in things like comparative bone density, comparative tendency to pyramiding and other MBDs, long-term reproductive success, etc. If we go by looks alone, we are basically judging the books by the covers. 

I also suspect that the successful 'fast growth' folk like you have some other tricks up your sleeves that add to your success and if many people just tried for fast growth, they would just get fat, bumpy things. I am thinking of things like your outdoor housing and nice, although dry, climate and so on.


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