# New Desert Tortoise Hatchlings



## kthomas (Sep 30, 2018)

The wife and I recently obtained two desert tortoise hatchlings. We have named them Taco and Hatch, and we are absolutely enamored!

I built them a tortoise table, which is lined and has a layer of cypress mulch, some rocks from the outdoors, enclosures to hide/sleep, a reptile specific combo heat/UVB lamp, and a pond with ramp and shallow layer of water. The table is 4' long, 2' wide, and has 9" tall walls with an open top. I measured the temperature directly under the heat/UVB lamp, and it is 93 deg F. The lamp is on a timer from 7 AM to 7 PM. We keep the house around 74-75 deg F, with no additional heat supply (minus the already mentioned lamp) for the tortoises. We still need to soak some of the mulch to create humidity though. 

We just received them the other day, I'm currently out of town/country for work but the wife is loving having them around! She's been feeding them, taking them outside to enjoy the AZ heat for short periods of time, and enjoying watching them move around their new enclosures.

They seem to be loving their new home, and for the most part seem pretty healthy and active. The wife did mention that Hatch seems to be having issues with one of it's front legs - she mentioned that it is slightly discolored and Hatch seems to drag that leg underneath it's shell and fall to the side of that leg when walking. Any ideas on what that is about? And what we can do to remedy any potential issue(s)? I did mention to her that we should be soaking the hatchlings everyday, I don't think she has done that yet.


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## kthomas (Sep 30, 2018)

Here is a picture of the tortoise table through various phases of it's construction. I'm fairly happy with how it turned out!

I also attached a picture of baby Hatch, this is not too long after she was born about a week ago. I don't have a current pic which shows any details on the leg at this moment - I'm hoping that the wife will be sending me some later today.


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## kthomas (Sep 30, 2018)

Feel free to provide any constructive criticism or suggestions - I'm new to this and I'm on this forum to learn!


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## Yvonne G (Sep 30, 2018)

You're Mercury Vapor Bulb needs to hang straight down. Hanging at an angle shortens the life of the bulb.

Look at the leg in VERY bright light, with a magnifying glass, looking to see if a hair is wrapped around the leg.

Figure out a way to cover the enclosure. It's impossible to have correct temperature, day and night, in an open-topped table.


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## kthomas (Sep 30, 2018)

Perfect, thanks Yvonne - appreciate the advice!


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## kthomas (Sep 30, 2018)

Just talked and video messaged with the wife - Hatch appears to be walking normally today, and the Wife couldn't find any hairs or anything on Hatch. We'll continue to keep a close eye on them. They are active, and eating well, so overall to my amateur eyes they appear to be doing well.

The wife is going to soak the hatchlings today, and we will continue to soak them daily as good tortoise parents would. 

The wife is going to place the lamp vertically on a reptile lamp stand, appreciate the heads up on that! I will also be building a top to the container when I get back - already have a few ideas for that!


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## kthomas (Sep 30, 2018)

They wife just gave them each a soak, or a bath as we call it! They seemed to enjoy it


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## Carol S (Sep 30, 2018)

They are so adorable.

The water dish is dangerous as they could flip over and drown when climbing in or out of it. It is recommended to use a shallow terracotta plant saucer dish, buried in the substrate, so that the tortoise does not have climb in and out, and can just walk in and out of the water dish.


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## kthomas (Sep 30, 2018)

Thanks!

The wife already has changed out the water dish to something more tame, as she has already found one of the hatchlings turned upside in the old water dish.

I'll get her to bury it in the mulch. We are on the look out for a new dish, I've already suggested the terracota dish.


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## Carol S (Sep 30, 2018)

kthomas said:


> Thanks!
> 
> The wife already has changed out the water dish to something more tame, as she has already found one of the hatchlings turned upside in the old water dish.
> 
> I'll get her to bury it in the mulch. We are on the look out for a new dish, I've already suggested the terracota dish.



I am happy that your wife found the baby in time.


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## kthomas (Oct 1, 2018)

I'm thinking of adding a 1/8" thick acrylic sheet to the top of the tortoise table, to enclose it for heat and humidity control. This is the specific one I am looking at: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07235V3DP/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

If I go this route, can the lamp be placed above the acrylic sheet? Or does it need to be below the acrylic sheet inside the enclosure? The walls are only 9" high, so if the lamp needs to be below the sheet, what wattage/power for the lamp do you recommend? Or do you guys recommend a different route for enclosing the tortoise table?


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## Minority2 (Oct 1, 2018)

kthomas said:


> I'm thinking of adding a 1/8" thick acrylic sheet to the top of the tortoise table, to enclose it for heat and humidity control. This is the specific one I am looking at: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07235V3DP/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20
> 
> If I go this route, can the lamp be placed above the acrylic sheet? Or does it need to be below the acrylic sheet inside the enclosure? The walls are only 9" high, so if the lamp needs to be below the sheet, what wattage/power for the lamp do you recommend? Or do you guys recommend a different route for enclosing the tortoise table?



For low walls you'll definitely want to use linear florescent bulb and basking combo instead of a mercury vapor bulb. For a 4' x 2' x 9" enclosure I would suggest using a 25-40 watt incandescent flood bulb with either LED linear UV(B) or T5 HO linear UV(B) fixtures. A T5 HO linear fixture will give off a good amount of heat which is why you may want lower the wattage output of your basking bulb to keep the enclosure within a favorable range. Test out the 25 watt first. You may even need to go lower for 9 inch walls. 

Cut sections of the acrylic out so that your fixtures can rest directly on top of the acrylic sheet. Leave only enough room for your basking hood and linear florescent reflector to rest on. I would also suggest using a material such as aluminum foil to cover the sides and edges to really seal in all the left over exposed areas.


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## kthomas (Oct 1, 2018)

Okay thanks!

I think I'm going to rethink my design to enclose it. I may try to find a way to make it more like a greenhouse (some sort of frame built on top of the current table with plastic) in a fashion that I can utilize my current lamp.

*Edit: Maybe something like this to throw on top of the table: https://www.wayfair.com/outdoor/pdp/zenport-4-ft-w-x-2-ft-d-mini-greenhouse-znpt1002.html


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## Yvonne G (Oct 1, 2018)

kthomas said:


> Thanks!
> 
> The wife already has changed out the water dish to something more tame, as she has already found one of the hatchlings turned upside in the old water dish.
> 
> I'll get her to bury it in the mulch. We are on the look out for a new dish, I've already suggested the terracota dish.


I use the clay plant saucers. Having said that, I must explain: Some of the clay saucers are so porous that the water seeps out throughout the day and you end up with empty waterers, so instead of clay, I buy plastic. They look exactly like clay saucers, but the water stays put:

Plastic saucer:






Clay saucer:





For tiny babies I add a layer of pebbles to the bottom of the saucer:


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## Tom (Oct 1, 2018)

Hello and welcome!

This is one of the species that I think can be okay with an open top as long as they have damp substrate and a humid hide. Low 70s is fine for a night temp and mid 90s under the basking lamp should work, but as Yvonne pointed out, it need to be hung from over head and point straight down.

Groups of babies can usually be housed together without issue, but not pairs. With a pair one is dominant and one is submissive and its chronically stressful for both. Best to add one or two more, or separate them into individual enclosures.

Keep up the daily soaks until they get over 100 grams. After that you can begin skipping a day here and there. Dehydration is probably the number one killer of baby DTs and bladder stones due to chronic dehydration kill many adults annually.

Much of the care info found for this species is old, out-dated and wrong. We've jumped to the wrong conclusion of how to care for them based on out incorrect assumptions of how they live in the wild and what they need. I raise them exactly like Russian tortoises. Give these a read for more explanation:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/


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## kthomas (Oct 1, 2018)

Thanks so much for the thoughtful responses everyone! There's certainly a wealth of knowledge on this forum, and I (and my baby tortoises) really appreciate you guys taking the time to respond!

I would love to keep the enclosure and open top if I'm able to, I'll be making sure that it is suitable for the little ones - I bought two climate control monitors, one to place at each side of the table, so that I can monitor the temp and humidity and ensure that the table is providing a suitable climate for the little guys. I'll be sure to make sure that the substrate is damp, and I plan on making their little sleeping huts "moisture chambers" so they get the property humidity.

Speaking of their "sleeping huts" - I'm still working on suitable arrangements for this. I saw another poster on this forum use one of these, turned upside down with a created entrance used for some hatchlings (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LX5J3MW/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20) - is this acceptable? I really like the idea and simplicity of it, but I don't want to do anything that would harm the little ones. Specifically I'm wondering if they would try to eat the liner and cause issues?

For pairs: is keeping them separate pretty much the general consensus on the board? Is it worth trying to keep them together? Perhaps put a bunch of objects as "sight blockers" in there? A separate heat lamp and water dish at each end? If it's not even worth experimenting with, can I put a divider in the current enclosure and effectively cut it in half? Or do I need to build a completely new enclosure for one of the tortoises?


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## kthomas (Oct 1, 2018)

I remember looking over those threads a few days ago, I'll be sure to look them over again! Lots of knowledge on here. I think I've spent about 5-6 hours on this forum since I've discovered it, reading through the various subfroums. So glad I found this place.


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## Tom (Oct 1, 2018)

kthomas said:


> Speaking of their "sleeping huts" - I'm still working on suitable arrangements for this. I saw another poster on this forum use one of these, turned upside down with a created entrance used for some hatchlings (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LX5J3MW/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20) - is this acceptable? I really like the idea and simplicity of it, but I don't want to do anything that would harm the little ones. Specifically I'm wondering if they would try to eat the liner and cause issues?
> 
> For pairs: is keeping them separate pretty much the general consensus on the board? Is it worth trying to keep them together? Perhaps put a bunch of objects as "sight blockers" in there? A separate heat lamp and water dish at each end? If it's not even worth experimenting with, can I put a divider in the current enclosure and effectively cut it in half? Or do I need to build a completely new enclosure for one of the tortoises?



I wouldn't use those as humid hides. They might try to eat it, they will certainly tear it up as they grow, and I think it might allow too much airflow. I prefer to use upside down plastic tubs with a door hole cut out. No moss or sponges on the roof. Just dampen the substrate under it.

The presence of other tortoise will cause some stress for both of them. There might not be any overt hostility like biting or pushing, but just the sight of the other one across the enclosure can be a problem. There are lots of subtle signs like following each other around, sleeping in the same area, sleeping face to face, sitting on the food, etc... Know anyone that keeps chameleons? They can usually explain this concept well. Both of them will be happier and healthier as the sole occupants of their own territories.


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## kthomas (Oct 1, 2018)

Thanks Tom, unfortunately that means we will have to return one of the hatchlings back to it's owners. Thankfully they are friends of ours, so that shouldn't be an issue. 

Also - appreciate the tips on the humid hides!


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## William Lee Kohler (Oct 4, 2018)

"Cut sections of the acrylic out so that your fixtures can rest directly on top of the acrylic sheet. Leave only enough room for your basking hood and linear florescent reflector to rest on. I would also suggest using a material such as aluminum foil to cover the sides and edges to really seal in all the left over exposed areas."

This seems unclear. To clarify the lights should not have to "shine" through any glass or plastic as it kills the good UV rays.

Also in a decent sized area there should not be any rivalry problems with these until they reach puberty or possibly get too crowded. My Red foots and Hingebacks do fine living together. Sometimes I see these opinions taken too far on here and vehemently disagree.


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## Tom (Oct 4, 2018)

William Lee Kohler said:


> Also in a decent sized area there should not be any rivalry problems with these until they reach puberty or possibly get too crowded. My Red foots and Hingebacks do fine living together. Sometimes I see these opinions taken too far on here and vehemently disagree.


I know nothing of hinge backs, but RFs are a relatively social species. We had a member here a couple of years ago that was advised to separate her two baby RFs and she listened to someone like you, instead of the multiple people that told her to separate them. Six weeks later she was back asking what to do as one had eaten the tail and most of the back leg of the other.

How many Gopherus babies have you raised up there in Eugene? Are you sure they are just like the other species you've raised, or might their temperament be different than the ones you know? I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. I don't think you have any Gopherus experience, and I think you are offering bad advice based on ignorance. I call attention to it not to start an argument, but so that people reading know to dismiss your baseless assertions. Little Gopherus can and will attack or intimidate each other when kept in pairs. I know this from repeated first hand experience with the species in question. Is this an opinion taken too far? Here's what can happen when people listen to your advice:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/bad-day-for-baby.114328/
Why don't you have a look at that thread and then come back and tell the OP that they won't have a problem until puberty. Have a look at the picture of a baby tortoise with a bloody hole where its eye used to be and then tell me all about your vehement disagreement. Or the lady with the RF that got its tail and leg chewed off over a period of weeks. Do you vehemently disagree with that too?


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## kthomas (Oct 4, 2018)

Unfortunately I believe we are already seeing signs of bullying, based off of what my wife is telling me (I'm not going to be home until Monday). 

We currently have all 4 of the hatchlings from the clutch in our care (owners went on vacation). The most active hatchling (bomber as we call him/her), does a lot of head bobbing, which I understand is a sign of aggression. Hatch, will not eat and is very lazy when the other hatchlings are around. When Hatch is alone in the enclosure, she (my wife likes to think she is a female - we know sex can't be determined for a few years) is very active and eats. She also seems to really enjoy her solitary baths/soaks. She doesn't seem to like being around the other hatchlings. Strangely, 3 of them all sleep together under a pot shard (including hatch last night). From what I have seen and heard, there are no real overt signs of aggression (yet). 

At the moment my wife does not have the capability to separate them. I will see what the plans for the owners is, they recently got back from their trip. I really DO NOT want to see any hatchlings suffer. We only plan on keeping one hatchling now.


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## TechnoCheese (Oct 4, 2018)

kthomas said:


> Unfortunately I believe we are already seeing signs of bullying, based off of what my wife is telling me (I'm not going to be home until Monday).
> 
> We currently have all 4 of the hatchlings from the clutch in our care (owners went on vacation). The most active hatchling (bomber as we call him/her), does a lot of head bobbing, which I understand is a sign of aggression. Hatch, will not eat and is very lazy when the other hatchlings are around. When Hatch is alone in the enclosure, she (my wife likes to think she is a female - we know sex can't be determined for a few years) is very active and eats. She also seems to really enjoy her solitary baths/soaks. She doesn't seem to like being around the other hatchlings. Strangely, 3 of them all sleep together under a pot shard (including hatch last night). From what I have seen and heard, there are no real overt signs of aggression (yet).
> 
> At the moment my wife does not have the capability to separate them. I will see what the plans for the owners is, they recently got back from their trip. I really DO NOT want to see any hatchlings suffer. We only plan on keeping one hatchling now.



If you have other hides available, them sleeping together could be them crowding each other, trying to bully the other(s) out of their territory.


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## kthomas (Oct 4, 2018)

TechnoCheese said:


> If you have other hides available, them sleeping together could be them crowding each other, trying to bully the other(s) out of their territory.



There are a few hides in the enclosure, but that particular one is probably the most favorable hide, if I was a betting man.


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## Tom (Oct 4, 2018)

In most cases, groups of babies will do fine together. It is with pairs that I see the vast majority of problems.

If you have a head bobber and one not eating, it might be a good idea to have the head bobber live alone, and let the other three live together peacefully until they start getting closer to maturity.


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## Minority2 (Oct 4, 2018)

William Lee Kohler said:


> "Cut sections of the acrylic out so that your fixtures can rest directly on top of the acrylic sheet. Leave only enough room for your basking hood and linear florescent reflector to rest on. I would also suggest using a material such as aluminum foil to cover the sides and edges to really seal in all the left over exposed areas."
> 
> This seems unclear. To clarify the lights should not have to "shine" through any glass or plastic as it kills the good UV rays.
> 
> Also in a decent sized area there should not be any rivalry problems with these until they reach puberty or possibly get too crowded. My Red foots and Hingebacks do fine living together. Sometimes I see these opinions taken too far on here and vehemently disagree.



Materials such as metal, glass, and plastic do not "kill" UV(B) rays. They completely block it. Which is the reason why I tell people to cut out sections of the material. 

Most members usually understand what referring to when I mention cutting sections out from a solid lid and leaving only enough room to rest their fixtures on. I do often follow up if people are still confused with more explanations and pictures as examples.


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## Michelled (Oct 18, 2018)

kthomas said:


> The wife and I recently obtained two desert tortoise hatchlings. We have named them Taco and Hatch, and we are absolutely enamored!
> 
> I built them a tortoise table, which is lined and has a layer of cypress mulch, some rocks from the outdoors, enclosures to hide/sleep, a reptile specific combo heat/UVB lamp, and a pond with ramp and shallow layer of water. The table is 4' long, 2' wide, and has 9" tall walls with an open top. I measured the temperature directly under the heat/UVB lamp, and it is 93 deg F. The lamp is on a timer from 7 AM to 7 PM. We keep the house around 74-75 deg F, with no additional heat supply (minus the already mentioned lamp) for the tortoises. We still need to soak some of the mulch to create humidity though.
> 
> ...


Habitat looks awesome. What are you feeding them?


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## kthomas (Dec 10, 2018)

Michelled said:


> Habitat looks awesome. What are you feeding them?



Hi Michelle,

Apologise for the late response, haven't been on here much lately. Thanks for the compliment on the enclosure!

Right now I am feeding them live lettuce (not the most nutritious, I know), wild grasses from the backyard (no pesticides or poisons are used on our property), a ZooMed wildflower occasionally, ZooMed grassland tortoise food pellets and a Repashy grassland grazer gel premix.

They love lettuce. The other foods they eat intermittently and seems to be hit or miss.Bought some Mazuri to try to feed them occasionally, and will be looking to buy/grow some local grass species to make more a staple of their diet.


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## orv (Dec 10, 2018)

Hi, our 4 CDTs are sleeping for the winter right now, but once they awaken, a few of their favorite foods include mulberry leaves, grape leaves and cactus pads. You might try these as you wean your's from lettuces and expensive commercial pellotized foods.


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## kthomas (Dec 11, 2018)

orv said:


> Hi, our 4 CDTs are sleeping for the winter right now, but once they awaken, a few of their favorite foods include mulberry leaves, grape leaves and cactus pads. You might try these as you wean your's from lettuces and expensive commercial pellotized foods.



Excellent, will try those out. Thanks!


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## Yvonne G (Dec 11, 2018)

Re the acrylic and lights - You cut a hole for the light from the bulb to shine through, but small enough so the edges of the light fixture still sits on the acrylic. Line the edges of the hole with foil.


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## kthomas (Sep 11, 2019)

Still have x4 desert tortoises that are alive and well. Some have been growing at a faster rate then others, but they are all eating, drinking, peeing, pooping and generally active. 

I've started to add in some Mazuri pellets which I soak with water to their diet, which they love. Otherwise, still need to diversify their diet some more. We moved earlier in the year, and our new place doesn't have native grasses growing like the old place - I hope to correct this soon and get some native edible plant species growing on our property. 

I've changed out the MVB for a T5 10.0 HO 48" UVB, which seems like a nice change. This change was spurred on by their room in the new house getting some high ambient temperatures, and with an MVB it was getting way too hot in their enclosures. The new UVB is a welcome change. 

At what point should I move them into a larger enclosure? When they are big enough I am planning on moving them outside, at which point they will all have their own dedicated enclosures. I would like to keep them in the same tortoise table that I've built until that point, but not at a cost of being a detriment to their physical and mental well being. 

I've also toyed with installing a mister system for the tortoise table, I'm sure its not necessary but I think it would be neat to somehow replicate the monsoon seasons here, and a misting system seems like a neat way to do so. More so a fun thing for me to "renovate" the tortoise table, not sure if I'm going to pull the trigger on that.


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## Gabym (Oct 23, 2020)

kthomas said:


> Feel free to provide any constructive criticism or suggestions - I'm new to this and I'm on this forum to learn!


Hi, I too have a little hatching. We found him out in our front walkway. He’s been living in a wooden box/ trunk we had. Today, my husband and I put together an elevated raised garden bed that we ordered and that looks so much like yours! I was going to line it like you did, but worried Gordie would dig thru the cedar chips down to the plastic . Have yours done that? I have a piece of flagstone under the heat lamp and a terra cotta saucer for his water. It should be low enough so it’s easy to get in and out. You don’t want them tipping over. I still can’t believe I’ve fallen in love with a reptile! He’s just so cute!


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## Sarah2020 (Oct 23, 2020)

kthomas said:


> They wife just gave them each a soak, or a bath as we call it! They seemed to enjoy it


Very good as they grow they may try to climb but that is excercise for duration of bath . You may need to upgrade to a deeper sided bowl ( I use 2 washing up bowls) but a great start in there they will drink and excreet so I move them over to 2nd bowl to avoid them drinking dirty water.


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## Sarah2020 (Oct 23, 2020)

This forum will really help you and read the care sheets for your tortoise to make the most of them and be rewarded with health and good growth. Hatchlings will climb and tumble so take away all climbing hazards or they will flip and can not right themselves and cause injury. Tip: If you do find them flipped over then place immediately in water to hydrate.


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## William Lee Kohler (Oct 24, 2020)

DON'T use Cedar chips with reptiles or small animals. It will kill them!


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## KarenSoCal (Oct 24, 2020)

@Gabym
@Sarah2020

If you check the dates on this thread, you'll see that it was started in 2018 and ended over a year ago. The OP hasn't been on the forum since July.

But anyway, @Gabym , in your post you said cedar chips substrate. Cedar chips are not suitable for tortoises. Maybe you meant to say cypress?

Are you sure your baby is a Desert Tortoise? If you post some pictures we can help you to be sure. Then we will know which care sheet applies to your tort. Include some pics of your enclosure and lights, too.

If your baby is a hatchling, an open topped enclosure won't work for him. We'll help you get everything right for him.


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## Tom (Oct 24, 2020)

Gabym said:


> Hi, I too have a little hatching. We found him out in our front walkway. He’s been living in a wooden box/ trunk we had. Today, my husband and I put together an elevated raised garden bed that we ordered and that looks so much like yours! I was going to line it like you did, but worried Gordie would dig thru the cedar chips down to the plastic . Have yours done that? I have a piece of flagstone under the heat lamp and a terra cotta saucer for his water. It should be low enough so it’s easy to get in and out. You don’t want them tipping over. I still can’t believe I’ve fallen in love with a reptile! He’s just so cute!


Can we get some pics of your baby?


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## Gabym (Oct 24, 2020)

Tom said:


> Can we get some pics of your baby?


 Here he is. So cute!


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## Gabym (Oct 24, 2020)

KarenSoCal said:


> @Gabym
> @Sarah2020
> 
> If you check the dates on this thread, you'll see that it was started in 2018 and ended over a year ago. The OP hasn't been on the forum since July.
> ...


He is a desert tortoise based on what my brother tells me. He has a couple of older ones he’s had many years. I realized that the initial post was old after I posted my reply. I’m new to this forum and it’s hard to read on my phone. I just checked and I’m using Repti Bark . It says it’s fir bark . Is that ok? I will post pics of his enclosure later today . I appreciate all the advice you can offer. Thank you!


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## Gabym (Oct 24, 2020)

William Lee Kohler said:


> DON'T use Cedar chips with reptiles or small animals. It will kill them!


Yes, I thought they were cedar, I guess Repti Bark is for chips


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## Gabym (Oct 24, 2020)

Gabym said:


> Yes, I thought they were cedar, I guess Repti Bark is for chips


I meant Fir chips


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## Gabym (Oct 24, 2020)

Gabym said:


> He is a desert tortoise based on what my brother tells me. He has a couple of older ones he’s had many years. I realized that the initial post was old after I posted my reply. I’m new to this forum and it’s hard to read on my phone. I just checked and I’m using Repti Bark . It says it’s fir bark . Is that ok? I will post pics of his enclosure later today . I appreciate all the advice you can offer. Thank you!


Here are a couple of pics of him


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## Tom (Oct 24, 2020)

Gabym said:


> Here are a couple of pics of him
> View attachment 309712
> View attachment 309713


You do indeed have a desert tortoise. Repti-bark = fir bark = orchid bark. Great substrate for them.

Here is the care info:





The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise


I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...




tortoiseforum.org


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