# Seeing tortoises are opportunist-what's your thoughts?



## wellington (Sep 27, 2015)

what is your opinion on feeding ALL tortoises raw meat and/or seafood a couple times a year?

It enters my head every time I read that they are opportunist in the wild. Wouldn't it be beneficial to offer it up once or twice a year in captivity too?


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## Big Charlie (Sep 27, 2015)

I don't see the benefit. Does a tortoise in the wild eat meat as a first choice when it is available or only because he is hungry and there is nothing else? We had a couple of crows die in our yard and Charlie ignored the dead bodies. I was worried he would take a bite and catch some disease before we had a chance to dispose of them.


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## ascott (Sep 27, 2015)

If you offer a pure organic , meat material I would imagine there would be no problem if offered as you desfribed...I am not sure that all torts would eat the meat material??


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## dmmj (Sep 27, 2015)

well they do eat what they can find in the wild it doesn't mean it's good. meat protein it's awfully high for what I've read and been told to high for your average herbivore. and then what happens if your Russian must say developed a taste for meat and then only wants meet? then you got a bloodthirsty monster that only sees you as a walking fish stick.I also see no real benefit to feeding them thusly I honestly don't know if once or twice a year would hurt. it's just a path that I don't want to start down. can you imagine a bloodthirsty meat eating sulcata 100 pounds charging at you? not even in my worst nightmare


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## wellington (Sep 27, 2015)

Luckily I don't have a Sulcata. I can see the red in its eyes now. 
I haven't fed meat and don't really plan too. I just always wonder, if it wouldn't be a benefit as it would be a natural part of their nature, should they happen upon something in the wild, which I'm sure they probably do from time to time. I sure wouldn't feed it more then once or twice a year and it wouldn't be anything huge, something similar that they might happen upon more often in the wild, like a small bird, rodent or dead fish/crab. 
I did once drop some dried krill in my leopards pen and he loved it and he's a picky eater. The only time I really seen him almost attack food. I did then feed it once in a while, but stopped as he seemed less interested the more I made it available, plus it was for my turtle and fish at the time. 
I also always wondered as when I was searching tortoise pics in the wild, I happened upon quite a few eating other dead torts, animals and even fish. I remember one with Aldabras eating sea food, can't remember if it were fish or crustaceans and also eating another dead Aldabra.


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## Tom (Sep 27, 2015)

I've pondered this one a bit and I don't have an answer. Multiple sources have confirmed that wild tortoises of several species will opportunistically consume carrion and mammal feces in the wild, but I still don't see myself offering either, even on an infrequent basis. I certainly would not offer any sort of seafood. Freshwater fish or crabs, maybe, but nothing from the ocean. I've seen and also heard stories of tortoises hunting and eating freshly killed animals, but still, should we intentionally feed them these things? I just don't know…


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## wellington (Sep 27, 2015)

Tom said:


> I've pondered this one a bit and I don't have an answer. Multiple sources have confirmed that wild tortoises of several species will opportunistically consume carrion and mammal feces in the wild, but I still don't see myself offering either, even on an infrequent basis. I certainly would not offer any sort of seafood. Freshwater fish or crabs, maybe, but nothing from the ocean. I've seen and also heard stories of tortoises hunting and eating freshly killed animals, but still, should we intentionally feed them these things? I just don't know…



I figured more or less, that if they would eat it in the wild, it would or could be one small element we could offer or are missing out on offering on that very rare occasion. Now, I would not let them eat my animals poop, dog, cat, etc, as they would not come across those kinds of feces, also for the fact our dogs are vaccinated and or drugged. However, the wild birds, rabbits, squirrels, skunks that I have in my yard almost every day and night, plus the occasional coon, fox, coyote and deer, I wouldn't expect to worry about their feces being eaten, I'm sure some already have been. As for dead animals, again, if I were to offer that, I would want it to be something more familiar to what they might come across and that of course was never medicated or vaccinated.
I just keep wondering if it's a small amount of something they could be missing in their diet for whatever purpose it could have or, if it's just not needed or craved at all, but if they come across it, they wouldn't turn it down. 
@Tom, maybe a good question to ask Toma if you still ever get to talk to him any more. Would be nice to know,if this is actually observed a lot in the wild or not. The occasional pics found on the Internet, who really knows how wild the torts are and if they are very rare sight to see or not.


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## wellington (Sep 27, 2015)

@tortadise any thoughts on this in all your conservation work you do?
@ALDABRAMAN have you ever found any info about the Aldabras actually eating seafood/crabs or another dead tortoise in any of your research you may have done on them. If my memory is correct, it was an Aldabra that ate a crab or fish, can't remember which. Also an Aldabra and a Sulcata that I had seen pics of and it had been assumed they ate the dead tortoise. Two separate pics and location of course.


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## wellington (Sep 27, 2015)

@N2TORTS and @allegraf any animal meat fed for your RF protein? If so, do they seek it out over the regular food?

@terryo @Yvonne G @Jacqui how about the Box turtles protein? Ever use animal meat? If so, do they seem to seek it out over their regular food and insects?

Just kinda wondering if they eat it cause it's there/offered or do they search it out first?


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## Tom (Sep 27, 2015)

wellington said:


> @Tom, maybe a good question to ask Toma if you still ever get to talk to him any more. Would be nice to know,if this is actually observed a lot in the wild or not. The occasional pics found on the Internet, who really knows how wild the torts are and if they are very rare sight to see or not.



Tomas told me that dying animals frequently seek out shelter from the burning African sun in sulcata burrows and that after the animals die, the sulcatas eat them. There was no mention of exactly how often this happens or what percentage of the diet it makes up. So little is known about the wild ones.

I read in the book on Bert Langerwerf's life that he used to cut up whole frozen turkeys with a band saw to feed his tegu colony. He would toss the scraps and bones to his sulcatas and they would gobble them up. Did this for years apparently. I would love to know the state of the internal organs and the general health of those animals...


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## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 27, 2015)

wellington said:


> @ALDABRAMAN have you ever found any info about the Aldabras actually eating seafood/crabs or another dead tortoise in any of your research you may have done on them.



~ I have read a few things indicating that they do eat carrion in the wild, however we have never seen ours have any interest. Do not think our group is a good example, they are exceptionally fed and the opportunity for our group is limited to such options. The neighbors cat was dead in the field for a day or so and other than basic interest there was no attempt to eat it. Our population has never had any interest in dog poo at all. 

~ I will share an experience that a friend had a few years back. A large young male had passed and they had left it in the habitat for a few weeks. Several other aldabra tortoises did nibble and take small bites from the neck area.


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## wellington (Sep 27, 2015)

Tom said:


> Tomas told me that dying animals frequently seek out shelter from the burning African sun in sulcata burrows and that after the animals die, the sulcatas eat them. There was no mention of exactly how often this happens or what percentage of the diet it makes up. So little is known about the wild ones.
> 
> I read in the book on Bert Langerwerf's life that he used to cut up whole frozen turkeys with a band saw to feed his tegu colony. He would toss the scraps and bones to his sulcatas and they would gobble them up. Did this for years apparently. I would love to know the state of the internal organs and the general health of those animals...



Very interesting. This Bert guy, is he still alive do you know? I wonder if we could find him or some of his tortoises. It would be interesting to see how they are doing, even if we can't look inside them. Their age, how their health has been, etc. 

Maybe @jaizei can find out some more info on him. He can just about find anything.


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## wellington (Sep 27, 2015)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> ~ I have read a few things indicating that they do eat carrion in the wild, however we have never seen ours have any interest. Do not think our group is a good example, they are exceptionally fed and the opportunity for our group is limited to such options. The neighbors cat was dead in the field for a day or so and other than basic interest there was no attempt to eat it. Our population has never had any interest in dog poo at all.
> 
> ~ I will share an experience that a friend had a few years back. A large young male had passed and they had left it in the habitat for a few weeks. Several other aldabra tortoises did nibble and take small bites from the neck area.



Wow, so sad, kinda gross, yet, very interesting. 
With your group, do they ever eat their own poop, or one of the other torts poop? 

Possilby more necessity to eat an animal In the wild due to lack of grazing, more then actually opportunity, but because they (yours)have never gone without, there is no need to eat it. Or Possibly the cat isn't something familiar to what they would come across. Fish or shell fish might be something they would be more familiar with.


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## N2TORTS (Sep 27, 2015)

Now speaking for Redfoots ....yes very much so "opportunistic" not that seafood would be on their list  
Although red-foots are commonly found in relatively dry grassland and forest areas, this species is also found in humid forest habitat. There is some disagreement as to which habitat is the preferred type. Walker (1989) states that red-foots prefer grasslands and dry forest areas, and that rain-forest habitat is most likely marginal. Other authors however, state or suggest that humid forest is the preferred habitat (Legler, 1963) (Moskovits, 1988). In the wild, red-foots are reported as being primarily herbivorous, but also consuming a small amount of animal matter such as carrion which can be more abundant in this type of "eco-zone"
The Hypo's and Cherries I own have no problem scarfing down "any " type meats .....including grubs, pinkie mice and even baby birds. I have often wondered and almost want to "prove a theory out" that the larger Cherries I own would even go after and cannibalize one of their own who is just emerging from the egg or a couple days old. (yet I haven't found the guts to try it out on one of my own hatchings') The smaller proteins (animals) mentioned above - when "alive" also draws attention right away when squiggling around.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 27, 2015)

wellington said:


> Wow, so sad, kinda gross, yet, very interesting.



~ Yes, when he called i actually drove to his place and saw for myself.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 27, 2015)

wellington said:


> With your group, do they ever eat their own poop, or one of the other torts poop?



~ Never!


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## wellington (Sep 27, 2015)

Big Charlie said:


> I don't see the benefit. Does a tortoise in the wild eat meat as a first choice when it is available or only because he is hungry and there is nothing else? We had a couple of crows die in our yard and Charlie ignored the dead bodies. I was worried he would take a bite and catch some disease before we had a chance to dispose of them.


The problem is, we don't really know if there is a benefit or not. It's also not really known if they would eat any animal, or something more familiar to what they would come across. Do they all eat meat in the wild or some do some don't for what ever reason. Do only males eat it for mating season or maybe it's the females for laying season? I keep thinking if they eat it in the wild, maybe it's something they need.


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## wellington (Sep 27, 2015)

N2TORTS said:


> Now speaking for Redfoots ....yes very much so "opportunistic" not that seafood would be on their list
> Although red-foots are commonly found in relatively dry grassland and forest areas, this species is also found in humid forest habitat. There is some disagreement as to which habitat is the preferred type. Walker (1989) states that red-foots prefer grasslands and dry forest areas, and that rain-forest habitat is most likely marginal. Other authors however, state or suggest that humid forest is the preferred habitat (Legler, 1963) (Moskovits, 1988). In the wild, red-foots are reported as being primarily herbivorous, but also consuming a small amount of animal matter such as carrion which can be more abundant in this type of "eco-zone"
> The Hypo's and Cherries I own have no problem scarfing down "any " type meats .....including grubs, pinkie mice and even baby birds. I have often wondered and almost want to "prove a theory out" that the larger Cherries I own would even go after and cannibalize one of their own who is just emerging from the egg or a couple days old. (yet I haven't found the guts to try it out on one of my own hatchings') The smaller proteins (animals) mentioned above - when "alive" also draws attention right away when squiggling around.


Wow, so if a live baby bird falls into your yard, your torts will actually hunt it down and attack/eat it? That's amazing, I never thought of a tortoise like that. I mean with bugs yes, but wouldn't have thunk it with live rodents or birds. 
As for going after a tortoise egg. You should take an emerging baby, put it in the yard, and see what the adults do, but pick the little one up before they actually have a chance to hurt it? If they go after it like they would a bird or pinky, you could safely assume they would eat it. You could also replace the baby at the last second with a slightly cracked chicken egg and see if they rip into it. No baby sacrificed that way.


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## N2TORTS (Sep 27, 2015)

They will go after an egg no problem ...I have tried that !  Let me tell ya what .....if barefoot and walking around the tortoise yard - stopping for whatever task , the larger Torts have no problems coming straight for your toes. Cindy and I have been bitten many of times. Either by experiment and choice ....or "zap" ...Dang nab it! They have a very keen sense of smell as well as eyesight. I don't think you would want to pull something out of "Oscars" mouth , and the such he is quite the "wolfer" as Reds do not "chew" their food as much as some of the other species.


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## N2TORTS (Sep 27, 2015)




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## dmmj (Sep 27, 2015)

I am starting to fear tortoises.


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## WithLisa (Sep 27, 2015)

I would never give my Hermanns meat. I'm sure they would eat it, but I guess they already get too much animal proteins. Definitely much more than they would find in the wild.
When I see them eating a big worm or slug, I take it away, but there are lots of slugs in my garden and I can't watch them all the time.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 27, 2015)

I've heard anecdotal stories of Aldabran tortoises standing very tall and still on the beach, making a big shadow. The seagull would come over and get under the tortoise for the shade and then the tortoise would quickly pull in his legs, squashing the bird and subsequently eating it. Don't know how true this is, but heard it from a couple different sources.


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## ZEROPILOT (Sep 28, 2015)

After seeing a particular Redfoot eat a dead rat trapped in a rat trap, plus some of the trap itself, I can vouch that certain breeds like carrion!
Nature is gruesome!


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## Jacqui (Sep 28, 2015)

Like Jeff, my reds eat anything. Drop a dead mouse in and they pass up their top favorites like mushrooms, papaya, and cantaloupe for the mouse. I should say some of them. Some, but few, ignore the "meat". Most seem more eager for something still alive with some wiggle to it.

The hingebacks are like the reds with eating the protein offered. I had heard about them fishing so tried that. I placed live fish in their water. This was in the Holmes and dross ones. Some of them did go into the water and try to catch the fish. I know fish went missing. I also tossed fish on the ground (still alive) which were eaten.

I recall the day a young kitten followed me into the large sulcatas. The reaction I saw, was a hunter (sulcata) going after that small animal. I scooped up the kitten just before the sulcata got to him. I have no doubt he planned to kill.


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## Alaskamike (Sep 28, 2015)

I'm not sure if I read this story here on the forum , or on another website. But it was about a large ( over 100 lbs) Sulcata that had a gopher invade his yard. The owner saw the gopher path and noticed his Sulcata sitting at one entrance to the fresh gopher burrow. The next morning when he went out , fur and animal parts were strewn around but most of the gopher was gone. The sully still had gopher fur stuck around his mouth. 

The sully showed no adverse reaction to the large meal of protein.  

My small 9 lb Sulcata scarfed up a big beetle that crawled onto his Mazuri , I couldn't tell if intentional or accidental. But he had no problem chewing it down. 

The historic fear of proteins from very bad care advice in the past may make us more wary of this than necessary. The days of extreme MBD , dog food diets, and no water are still fresh in our minds and we've seen the damage. Some are still doing it despite good care info readily available. 

My young aldabra discovered the dog food dish on my lanai some time ago and ate a few pieces. Kinda surprised me. Now I put it up if she's in. 

My OPINION on this is that it is harmless to them once in awhile , but not needed with a varied diet. 

Out of curiosity I put a piece of raw tilapia beside an offering of my 40 lb sulcatas favorite foods. 

He ate the piece of fish first - no hesitation. 

But I only did this once It will not be a regular thing. It is a good question though.


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## wellington (Sep 28, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> I've heard anecdotal stories of Aldabran tortoises standing very tall and still on the beach, making a big shadow. The seagull would come over and get under the tortoise for the shade and then the tortoise would quickly pull in his legs, squashing the bird and subsequently eating it. Don't know how true this is, but heard it from a couple different sources.


That's fascinating and very smart.


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## wellington (Sep 28, 2015)

Jacqui said:


> Like Jeff, my reds eat anything. Drop a dead mouse in and they pass up their top favorites like mushrooms, papaya, and cantaloupe for the mouse. I should say some of them. Some, but few, ignore the "meat". Most seem more eager for something still alive with some wiggle to it.
> 
> The hingebacks are like the reds with eating the protein offered. I had heard about them fishing so tried that. I placed live fish in their water. This was in the Holmes and dross ones. Some of them did go into the water and try to catch the fish. I know fish went missing. I also tossed fish on the ground (still alive) which were eaten.
> 
> I recall the day a young kitten followed me into the large sulcatas. The reaction I saw, was a hunter (sulcata) going after that small animal. I scooped up the kitten just before the sulcata got to him. I have no doubt he planned to kill.



Very interesting. I love the fish experiment. So glad you saved the kitten, close call.


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## Jacqui (Sep 28, 2015)

We are a member from either MO or AR who raised turkeys, so her redfoots ate a lot of dead bird.

I have brought roadkill home for my snapper.


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## tortadise (Sep 28, 2015)

Yes indeed on protein. Of many species that you wouldn't think either. Lots of friends and colleuges in Europe have found greaca, marginata, Hermanni, and horsfieldi consuming deceased foxes, rabbits, moles, and mammals. Obviously South America and Asia minor/major and Indonesian atoll they will consume much more protein than others. I've had same conversations with Tomas about sulcatas. They have been noted to catch ground nesting birds in bushes and consume them. 

As to how often. Well this I believe should be considered depending on the variety of ruffage and calciumhosphorus and iron intake of varied said diet in captivity. For sure if kept outside and they scour for anthropods, worms or small insects that's perfect.


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## tortadise (Sep 28, 2015)

tortadise said:


> Yes indeed on protein. Of many species that you wouldn't think either. Lots of friends and colleuges in Europe have found greaca, marginata, Hermanni, and horsfieldi consuming deceased foxes, rabbits, moles, and mammals. Obviously South America and Asia minor/major and Indonesian atoll they will consume much more protein than others. I've had same conversations with Tomas about sulcatas. They have been noted to catch ground nesting birds in bushes and consume them.
> 
> As to how often. Well this I believe should be considered depending on the variety of ruffage and calciumhosphorus and iron intake of varied said diet in captivity. For sure if kept outside and they scour for anthropods, worms or small insects that's perfect.


Why did the smily show up. Was suppose to read as follows.
"Calciumhosphorus"


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## wellington (Sep 28, 2015)

Alaskamike said:


> I'm not sure if I read this story here on the forum , or on another website. But it was about a large ( over 100 lbs) Sulcata that had a gopher invade his yard. The owner saw the gopher path and noticed his Sulcata sitting at one entrance to the fresh gopher burrow. The next morning when he went out , fur and animal parts were strewn around but most of the gopher was gone. The sully still had gopher fur stuck around his mouth.
> 
> The sully showed no adverse reaction to the large meal of protein.
> 
> ...



Never thought about the old bad care and dog/cat food and mbd possibly being the source of NO PROTEIN. Great thought. You might be dead on with that. 

I don't think it's something that should be given all the time. I do think, the more I read of torts and proteins/carrion that it's something that could be good be offered in a small amount, a couple times a year. Like lots of things, a little can go a long way and is good, too much could be bad. 
Is it needed, that's probably never really going to be known. Is it a good thing to offer, I'm leaning towards yes. Should it be forced to be eaten, like hidden in their food so,they will eat it, no. I think if they choose to not eat it, then that particular tort doesn't see a need for it after a couple times of offering. 

Great info/stories/thoughts coming in. Keep them coming. I'm still pondering if to try it, but am leaning towards yes.


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## tortadise (Sep 28, 2015)

Ok let's try this.

CA : P

Which is calcium to phosprous. 

I'm blabbing on about something stupid. Also given that animal consumed adds lots iron, magnesium (from bone marrow being gnawed kinda like a cuttlefish bone) which kinda going off rant again. Cuttlefish is actually a beak from a squid/octopi like creature and is considered consumption of animal as well.


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## wellington (Sep 28, 2015)

tortadise said:


> Why did the smily show up. Was suppose to read as follows.
> "Calciumhosphorus"


 Wow, great info. Thanks. Now I'm leaning a little more towards offering. Like I have stated, I wouldn't do more then twice a year and a small amount. I do offer a varied diet, but is it the best, I don't really know. Still working on getting as much variety as possible. 

As for the word phosphorus in your post. I have no idea, did it twice, but the "P" works for me. Too funny.


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## wellington (Sep 28, 2015)

tortadise said:


> Ok let's try this.
> 
> CA : P
> 
> ...



LOL, your cracking me up, good info so keep blabbing

If you were gong to go buy a meat to offer. Which would be your first choice for leopards and a Russian? Keep in mind, I can not and will not offer live animal, live bugs and fish yes.

Anyone's opinion welcomed on this question too please.


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## Tom (Sep 28, 2015)

wellington said:


> This Bert guy, is he still alive do you know?



Sadly, he died a few years back. I had the opportunity to talk to him a few times and bought some of his lizards. I admired and respected the man tremendously.


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## Tom (Sep 28, 2015)

wellington said:


> I do think, the more I read of torts and proteins/carrion that it's something that could be good be offered in a small amount, a couple times a year. Like lots of things, a little can go a long way and is good, too much could be bad.
> Is it needed, that's probably never really going to be known. Is it a good thing to offer, I'm leaning towards yes. Should it be forced to be eaten, like hidden in their food so,they will eat it, no. I think if they choose to not eat it, then that particular tort doesn't see a need for it after a couple times of offering.
> 
> Great info/stories/thoughts coming in. Keep them coming. I'm still pondering if to try it, but am leaning towards yes.



I still do not have a yes or a no on this subject, but wish to keep one pertinent thought at the fore front: Whatever does, or does not happen in the wild, our backyards are not the wild.

No wild tortoise gets a diet even remotely like what any of us feed our tortoises from day to day.

Just something to consider in all of this. I don't know if that should make us lean more pro-meat or con-meat...


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## Tom (Sep 28, 2015)

Alaskamike said:


> I'm not sure if I read this story here on the forum , or on another website. But it was about a large ( over 100 lbs) Sulcata that had a gopher invade his yard. The owner saw the gopher path and noticed his Sulcata sitting at one entrance to the fresh gopher burrow. The next morning when he went out , fur and animal parts were strewn around but most of the gopher was gone. The sully still had gopher fur stuck around his mouth.
> 
> The sully showed no adverse reaction to the large meal of protein.



This happened at Dave Friend's place. I've recounted the story here, but you've added details that I was not aware of, so I think you may have read someone else's version of the story elsewhere. Interesting.


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## Tom (Sep 28, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> I've heard anecdotal stories of Aldabran tortoises standing very tall and still on the beach, making a big shadow. The seagull would come over and get under the tortoise for the shade and then the tortoise would quickly pull in his legs, squashing the bird and subsequently eating it. Don't know how true this is, but heard it from a couple different sources.



I've never heard of this with Aldabras and seagulls, so that is kind of neat to hear.

Years ago I saw footage from a nature program of wild Galapagos tortoises doing this at the edge of a watering hole with Darwin's Finches. They would drop down, smoosh a few, back up and eat them, then reassume the tall statue position and wait for more victims. I see no way to classify this as anything other than "hunting".


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## Anyfoot (Sep 28, 2015)

This is an interesting thread. I need to read it all when I get home from work. 
When my reds are wandering the garden they will go for my cats and the rabbit, so far they have not succeeded(few). Only the females, though this maybe just a fluke. They also mop up any mice or birds that the cats bring to our garden, not often but it does happen. Also they always find the cat poop and devour it if I don't get there first. Yuk.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 28, 2015)

If we could sort out one perfect food item that would be easiest for both us and tortoises in the wild. However tortoises are more generalist herbivores with omnivore tendencies than we give them credit for. And for that complexity in diet comes an ability to endure times with poor food choices. Many species of animals that have a have a very narrow diet range, are also vulnerable to dieing off easily, they go hand in hand. 

Like Hummingbirds, super specialized, they get nearly all their nutrition from nectar with a few incidental insects along the way. But it is a terminal path, if the flowers they need go away, the hummingbirds go away, they will not be able to adapt quickly enough. The point is some animals seek (evolve as specialists) to find as few perfect food sources as possible and stick with them (few if any competitor), the trade off is they become very reliant on those food sources.

Tortoises don't do that specialization thing. They can do well enough (to grow to an age of reproduction) on a huge range of food items. If we could find some perfect food that was all they needed we would, and Mazuri would have us believe it is their tortoise diet. 

So barring that single perfect food, they will and do eat pretty much whatever they come across that works (meets the need of the day), in the wild. What we learn from the wild and apply to captivity is a bit different. Barbara started out suggesting some meat item be included in the diet once or twice a year. I think once or twice a week is more appropriate, but small amounts, so that the weekly average is more stable, instead of a spike of meat once or twice a year. This would help bring us closer to a diet that is a one perfect food, which for tortoises is more like a perfect meal of several foods mixed. Or still better yet a few different meals served over the course of a week.


Some nutrients are best not in the exact same meal as others. They compete for absorption or block each other, as you see fit to understand it. So two or three different mixed meals over the course of a week is a pretty optimal way to get the most from the effort. 


I feed plain greens once or twice a week, romaine, escarole, fresh leaves (mulberry, hibsicus, etc). I feed a mixed salad the other five or six days. That mixed salad comes in two basic versions. One higher in calcium and grasses for a bolus of long fiber, and one with a much higher variety of plants (sources of macromolecules) and protein that can get moved about by the grass/calcium bolus of the day before. The all greens meal sorta flushes the system out.

I use hard-boiled egg for the protein, it's is in fact what starts the tortoises out early in life both pre and post hatching. I do use chicken eggs and not tortoises eggs, so you can fault my logic there. I've also been known to let fruit get all fruit fly maggoty and feed that out. Several of my tortoises eat isopods at will as they are the bio-active cleaners of the enclosures. An occasional earthworm is found and readily consumed as well, More of that bio active thing there.

This presentation of information is not new here on TFO, it is for the most part what I wrote in the thread "Grocery Store Greens Good". I use much more opunia these days than aloe, they are somewhat interchangeable. Nick aka Baoh suggested avocado to me with the explanation that it contains many macromolecules of nutrients depleted when females lay eggs, so a little post egg laying increases nutrient recovery. I have found I agree with this.

So this is what tortoises do in the wild, they make a stew in their guts of mixed sources of nutrition and add the flush and bolus accumulators for transit purposes. They do this in eating episodes of most desirable stews as food items are available, eating what else they can or is available to persist until the next time of abundance.

I know I know why can't I write all this is simple one sentence complete replies? It is not so simple a thing to address.


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## Tom (Sep 28, 2015)

Will,
I'm glad you are here.

Thanks.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 28, 2015)

Tom said:


> Will,
> I'm glad you are here.
> 
> Thanks.



Yeah...if only he could learn to talk English.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 28, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> Yeah...if only he could learn to talk English.



And you learn to articulate a complex message. Right back atchew!


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## wellington (Sep 28, 2015)

So @Will in very simple terms. If I am understanding correctly. Your knowledge/opinion/suggestions are to feed a steady diet week after week, it being a mixture of basically 2-3 types of meals covering all the bases that even humans should cover and proteins being in 2-3 days of the weeks meals?

Would you say egg is better then a meat protein and why boiled and not raw?
Also, are you feeding this way to all your torts, including leopards and starting at what age, their first meal offered from you?


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 28, 2015)

Tom said:


> Will,
> I'm glad you are here.
> 
> Thanks.


I love you to man, in all the ways that are TFO permissible, without our HR getting their panties in a wad over it. That felt good to say!


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## Alaskamike (Sep 28, 2015)

Tom said:


> This happened at Dave Friend's place. I've recounted the story here, but you've added details that I was not aware of, so I think you may have read someone else's version of the story elsewhere. Interesting.


Ya.... 
Probably embellished a bit as its told & re told. Lol 
But it probably is the same incident.


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## N2TORTS (Sep 28, 2015)

Ha Ha both of you . Yes.....Mr. Will you do write very well I must say. Between the Seizures , Strokes and Meds they have me pumped fulI of ......Man I miss those days.....
Well enough chat .....Here this morning a Brown Raw Chicken egg placed within the Cherries.......
less than 2 mins........


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 28, 2015)

wellington said:


> So @Will in very simple terms. If I am understanding correctly. Your knowledge/opinion/suggestions are to feed a steady diet week after week, it being a mixture of basically 2-3 types of meals covering all the bases that even humans should cover and proteins being in 2-3 days of the weeks meals?
> 
> Would you say egg is better then a meat protein and why boiled and not raw?
> Also, are you feeding this way to all your torts, including leopards and starting at what age, their first meal offered from you?




That is all what I am saying. Neonates getting a higher proportion of protein than adult females and females more than males. It is not so hard to do all this. I feed the neonates last, and they get the higher proportion of 'stuff' from the bottom of the dish pan than the adults do after it's all mixed. If you have an image of me carefully measuring everything out that would be a mistake. I let result follow the practice that is easy to implement.

The all greens days happen to be during the week when in the morning I happen to oversleep and so the rush to feed is the easy diet, all greens. The greens with lots of grass or other long fiber meal high in calcium is a bit longer to make but still quicker than the many plants diet. The many plants diet gets a hard-boiled egg (not raw, it is too difficult to mix into a salad and goes bad within hours). This last diet gets the bits of this and bits of that, squash, melon, cucumber, chopped papaya, avocado (females mostly), lots of flowers picked the day before, the occasional continued use of aloe, extra leaves of other plants (moringa, beet greens, radish greens etc), sweet potato ( cooked sometimes raw other times), plantain, and very occasional banana. I am frequently doing quirky additions once in a blue moon.

Most colonies (species groups) are separate enclosures for males and females, but some like pancakes are mixed sex all the time.


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## N2TORTS (Sep 28, 2015)

Did ya know an Chicken Egg's color is determined by the color of the chickens ear lobes?


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## terryo (Sep 28, 2015)

I am no Tortoise expert, as I only raised the two Cherry Heads, and I never gave them protein until they were over 6 months old. When they were older, I gave fresh ground venison, that a friend gives me. And when I couldn't get the fresh venison I gave they Wellness Venison and sweet potato., They only got it once every two weeks, but boy did they love it. I went into the garden one day and saw Pio just about finishing a baby bird. I've also seen them sharing a dead mouse. I've seen them eating worms many times, and slugs too. Almost any living thing they could find in the Tortoise garden they would eat. I am sure they ate more than I got to see, because I've seen feathers in the garden many times.
As for the box turtles, I know they are definitely opportunists. They will eat anything that moves. They are always searching the garden for live food. They eat figs every single day when they are in season, and sit under the tree waiting for them. I've seen them eat baby birds that fall from the trees here. I've seen them eat field mice ......praying that where ever they got it from, they don't get into my house. They get ground venison almost every day in the Spring and early Fall to ensure a heavy weight before hibernation. They definitely get a well balanced diet, because I feed them a mixture of foods every day besides what they find themselves.


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## wellington (Sep 28, 2015)

terryo said:


> I am no Tortoise expert, as I only raised the two Cherry Heads, and I never gave them protein until they were over 6 months old. When they were older, I gave fresh ground venison, that a friend gives me. And when I couldn't get the fresh venison I gave they Wellness Venison and sweet potato., They only got it once every two weeks, but boy did they love it. I went into the garden one day and saw Pio just about finishing a baby bird. I've also seen them sharing a dead mouse. I've seen them eating worms many times, and slugs too. Almost any living thing they could find in the Tortoise garden they would eat. I am sure they ate more than I got to see, because I've seen feathers in the garden many times.
> As for the box turtles, I know they are definitely opportunists. They will eat anything that moves. They are always searching the garden for live food. They eat figs every single day when they are in season, and sit under the tree waiting for them. I've seen them eat baby birds that fall from the trees here. I've seen them eat field mice ......praying that where ever they got it from, they don't get into my house. They get ground venison almost every day in the Spring and early Fall to ensure a heavy weight before hibernation. They definitely get a well balanced diet, because I feed them a mixture of foods every day besides what they find themselves.



Thanks for the info. Venison is very lean right? i like that idea better then beef. Now if the hunters in my family ever got a deer I might be able to snag some of it.


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## Tom (Sep 28, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> Yeah...if only he could learn to talk English.



You mean instead of all that scientific mumbo-jumbo???


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## dmmj (Sep 28, 2015)

I only know two things for sure 1 I need a college degree to read Will's posts 2 I'm never going to trip and fall in any of my tortoises enclosures.


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## Tom (Sep 28, 2015)

Alaskamike said:


> Ya....
> Probably embellished a bit as its told & re told. Lol
> But it probably is the same incident.



I toured Dave's place and he pointed out his gopher hunting sulcata tortoise to me. The tortoise was not hunting at that moment, but he knows which one it is, and this tortoise apparently does this regularly. Whenever the tortoise catches sight of a gopher popping its head above ground it will go sit in front go the hole and wait. Sometimes for hours. When the gopher sticks its head up the tortoise will lunge out and snatch it up and eat it.

I've never heard of any other tortoise of any other species doing this.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 28, 2015)

dmmj said:


> I am starting to fear tortoises.




Yeah, it's a mix tape song of Grateful Dead's Terrapin Station and BOC's Fear the Reaper. I think I heard that on the car radio this morning as I drove into work.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 28, 2015)

N2TORTS said:


> Did ya know an Chicken Egg's color is determined by the color of the chickens ear lobes?


 I did not know that Sir, but I've never seen a chicken's ear lobe.


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## N2TORTS (Sep 28, 2015)

Will said:


> I did not know that Sir, but I've never seen a chicken's ear lobe.



Your chicken's ears do not stick out of the side of her head, but that is where they are located. Chicken ears are small holes in either side of your chicken's head. You cannot usually see them because the ears are covered in feathers. The only part of a chicken's ear that usually is visible is the lobe, which sticks out slightly away from the skin and feathers. The ear lobe is located in the space behind the eye and the wattle, which is the red, fleshy growth under the chin. The color of a chicken's ear is easiest to determine while looking at the ear lobe. If the lobe is white, then the ear is white. If the lobe is brown, then the ear is also brown. The color of the earlobe can tell you what color eggs your chickens will lay. Chickens with white ears lay white eggs. Chickens with brown ears lay brown eggs. The color of the chicken's ears are not necessarily the same color as their feathers, however. Chickens have an assortment of feather colors that have no effect on the color of the eggs

by Jen Davis, Demand Media http://animals.mom.me/color-chickens-ears-5883.html








http://s646.photobucket.com/user/stacyeme/media/Expressions/fencing.gif.html


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## Tom (Sep 28, 2015)

N2TORTS said:


> Your chicken's ears do not stick out of the side of her head, but that is where they are located. Chicken ears are small holes in either side of your chicken's head. You cannot usually see them because the ears are covered in feathers. The only part of a chicken's ear that usually is visible is the lobe, which sticks out slightly away from the skin and feathers. The ear lobe is located in the space behind the eye and the wattle, which is the red, fleshy growth under the chin. The color of a chicken's ear is easiest to determine while looking at the ear lobe. If the lobe is white, then the ear is white. If the lobe is brown, then the ear is also brown. The color of the earlobe can tell you what color eggs your chickens will lay. Chickens with white ears lay white eggs. Chickens with brown ears lay brown eggs. The color of the chicken's ears are not necessarily the same color as their feathers, however. Chickens have an assortment of feather colors that have no effect on the color of the eggs
> 
> by Jen Davis, Demand Media http://animals.mom.me/color-chickens-ears-5883.html



My aracanas don't have green earlobes...


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## terryo (Sep 28, 2015)

I'm sending your post to my son, Jeff. We have a bunch of chickens and they lay all colored eggs...blue, brown, and white, and a light badge color. Also have some beautiful little white chickens, forgot what they are called, but they don't lay eggs too often as they are show chickens with long hair like feathers going all the way down their legs and dragging on the ground. I never knew that about the ears.


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## N2TORTS (Sep 28, 2015)

Tom said:


> My aracanas don't have green earlobes...


Well not trying to diverge from the OP topic ....but Tom maybe I should have said this ....
Ear lobe color seems to be related to (not determined by) egg color most of the time. Breeds with white earlobes lay white eggs... except for Penedesencas and Empordanesas, which have white earlobes and lay dark chocolate colored eggs. Chickens with red earlobes lay eggs in shades of brown... except for Easter Eggers, Ameraucanas and Araucanas, which lay blue eggs (usually blue or green in the case of Easter Eggers). Then there is the Silkie, which lays light brown or nearly white eggs; silkie earlobes are blue.
There are always exceptions when dealing with Mother Nature.....

Rub a Dub Grub ........


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## Tom (Sep 28, 2015)

N2TORTS said:


> Well not trying to diverge from the OP topic ....but Tom maybe I should have said this ....
> Ear lobe color seems to be related to (not determined by) egg color most of the time. Breeds with white earlobes lay white eggs... except for Penedesencas and Empordanesas, which have white earlobes and lay dark chocolate colored eggs. Chickens with red earlobes lay eggs in shades of brown... except for Easter Eggers, Ameraucanas and Araucanas, which lay blue eggs (usually blue or green in the case of Easter Eggers). Then there is the Silkie, which lays light brown or nearly white eggs; silkie earlobes are blue.
> There are always exceptions when dealing with Mother Nature.....



Chickens are awesome. I love my chickens. Looks like getting free eggs is going to be a good deal for the next few years too…

Okay, sorry Barb. Back on topic now...


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