# Compact Fluorescent Bulbs: THE Discussion!



## StudentoftheReptile (Aug 20, 2012)

It seems there continues to be confusion regarding the alleged issues of using Compact Fluorescent Bulbs (CFBs) with tortoises. Some are spiral-shaped, while others are not. Some brands specifically suggest mounting these bulbs in a horizontal fixture, while others claim they can mounted both ways. Hopefully this thread will help shed a little light on the subject (forgive the pun).

*Exo-Terra Repti-Glo CFBs*
Available in 2.0, 5.0, and 10.0
Shape: coil/spiral











(towards the bottom of this page: http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/compact_fluorescent_bulbs.php )


> To fit our range of fluorescent bulbs, both linear and compact, Exo Terra developed a complete line of terrarium tops and linear fluorescent bulb controllers.~~~The Exo Terra Compact Tops are perfectly suited for the Exo Terra Compact Bulbs.



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*ZooMed ReptiSun*
Available in 5.0 (http://www.zoomed.com/db/products/E...7czoxOiIwIjtzOjg6IlNlYXJjaF95IjtzOjE6IjAiO30=) and 10.0 (http://www.zoomed.com/db/products/E...7czoxOiIwIjtzOjg6IlNlYXJjaF95IjtzOjE6IjAiO30=)
Shape: U-shaped








> Lamp can be oriented either vertically or horizontally in your reptile hood or clamp lamp fixture.


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*Fluker Farms Sun Glow Coil Lantern*
Available in 5.0 and 10.0
Shape: coil/spiral

http://www.flukerfarms.com/sunglowcoilbulb50uvb-20watt.aspx






*Does not specify ideal mounting conditions.* In my honest opinion, because they are coil-shaped like the Exo-Terra Repti-Glo, they should be mounted horizontally.
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*Zilla CFBs*
Available in Tropical 25 (http://www.zilla-rules.com/products/tropical-series-uvb-flourescent-bulbs.htm) and Desert 50 (http://www.zilla-rules.com/products/uvb-flourescent-bulbs.htm)
Shape: coil/spiral (*also offers a 9-watt U-shaped bulb for the Desert 50)






*Does not specify ideal mounting conditions.* In my honest opinion, because they are coil-shaped like the Exo-Terra Repti-Glo, they should be mounted horizontally.
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Also, if anyone has had any issues using CFBs with their tortoises (or any reptiles), please detail your accounts here. *Be as specific as possible*:
- what brand
- what output rating (Ex: 5.0, 10.0)
- how was the bulb mounted
- what shape (coil or U-shaped)
- what species (EXACT species, not just "tortoise")
- issues (Ex: blindness, lethargy, always hiding, etc.)
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I'm sure many want to get to the bottom of this thing. Is this a problem with ALL compact fluorescents? Or just people who mount them wrong? Is it just the coil/spiral-shaped ones? Inquiring minds want to know!


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## StudentoftheReptile (Aug 21, 2012)

Wow...no comments on this one? Interesting...


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## JoesMum (Aug 21, 2012)

I think it's been debated to death on here... a different thread title may have attracted comment.


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## Edna (Aug 21, 2012)

When I bought my first Hermanns as a hatchling (Jan., 2010) I purchased all the equipment for his initial set up at Petco, per their recommendations. That included a Zoo Med heat/light combo pack with a CFL 5.0 and a heat bulb. I mounted both bulbs in mini-dome fixtures and clamped them to the sides of his enclosure. That was his arrangement for 6-8 months, when I broke the CFL.
He was fine, eating and active and no hint of a problem. He is just waking up downstairs as I type and is still happy and healthy.
I am currently using some household CFLs for general lighting. The problems reported in 2008 with reptile CFLs were due to UV exposure, particularly UVC. CFLs for household use are designed to minimize UV light. My tortoises have an MVB for their UV needs.
I found the radiographs on the following page useful and relevant.

http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/led/spectra7.htm


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## wellington (Aug 21, 2012)

I also,think, it has been said so many times , that they cause eye problems, so why take the chance. Yet, people keep asking, trying to get the answer they want, which is that they are safe. I for one don't want to experiment with it, or risk my torts sight to see if they are. He is worth more to me then a few bucks I would be saving by using them. If you want to believe they (company) has fixed the problem, then use them. I however, don't trust them, as there are so many items on the market that should never be out there. Couple examples, heat rock, lots of reptiles have been burned by them, yet they still sell them. Substrate, the pellets are still sold and they aren't good for any reptile I know of. So you decide. Do you want to trust the people, that makes a cheap product, yet is out to make money, or do you want to trust the people that won't make a dime, but cares more about the animals then the companies ever will?


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## StudentoftheReptile (Aug 21, 2012)

JoesMum said:


> I think it's been debated to death on here... a different thread title may have attracted comment.



Well, my intent was along the lines of a end-all discussion thread where people could give detailed accounts of their issues with these bulbs. Similar to Tom's "End of Pyramiding" threads. Like many, I want to figure EXACTLY where the problem lies instead of rehashing the same second- or third-hand opinion over and over everytime someone asks about CFBs.
------
For a few years prior to 2010, I did keep hearing reports of some study about the effect CFBs had on bearded dragons, that it caused them blindness. Now, I do not recall ever finding or reading the results of this "study" or even verifying its existence at all. Similar to the topic at hand, I do not remember if it was regarding all CFBs (even household, non-reptile specific brands), or just the reptile-brand types, or certain shapes, etc.

In 2010, I was preparing for a presentation on reptile lighting and heating, and was doing some research on all the different types of bulbs out there. At this time, I was still not a tortoise keeper and was not aware of any negative effects CFBs had on chelonians. In my research, I came across this website ( www.uvguide.co.uk ), which was quite extensive. I printed out nearly the entire website and read as much as I could. Sadly, much of the site is now currently under construction (including the section on Compact Fluorescent Bulbs) and not useful as a reference, so I can only dictate what my memory allows.

What I DO recall was according to the test results, UV emissions were maximised when these bulbs were mounted horizontally, not vertically. I believe the brands tested were Exo-Terra and/or Zilla (and possibly some European company that we don't see here in the US). I seem to remember some brief mentioning of the alleged study on bearded dragons, but my memory fails on the details.

That is what I based most of my opinion on regarding this matter, at least in terms of the mounting position of CFBs. It wasn't until later when I started keeping tortoises, and joined this site that I found that people were having the blindness issue with tortoises as well.
----

On a similar note, this is also the website where I read about the correct (or most ideal) mounting position of Mercury Vapor Bulbs (MVBs); specifically, that they should be positioned directly straight down into the enclosure (90' angle), not at any other angle, which would compromise both the structural integrity (therefore, the longevity) and effective UV output of the bulb. Unfortunately, like with CFBs, this section of that website is also under construction.



wellington said:


> I also,think, it has been said so many times , that they cause eye problems, so why take the chance. Yet, people keep asking, trying to get the answer they want, which is that they are safe. I for one don't want to experiment with it, or risk my torts sight to see if they are. He is worth more to me then a few bucks I would be saving by using them. If you want to believe they (company) has fixed the problem, then use them. I however, don't trust them, as there are so many items on the market that should never be out there. Couple examples, heat rock, lots of reptiles have been burned by them, yet they still sell them. Substrate, the pellets are still sold and they aren't good for any reptile I know of. So you decide. Do you want to trust the people, that makes a cheap product, yet is out to make money, or do you want to trust the people that won't make a dime, but cares more about the animals then the companies ever will?



Barb, like you, I am of the mentality of why take the chance until we (the collective herp community) can figure this out. We obviously cannot depend on the manufacturers themselves to do what is right (good heavens, we'd all be poor!).

I am also tired of the confusion as well. Obviously, there is more to this issue than just a blanket statement "All compact fluorescents are BAD! Don't ever use them! Ever!" Well...is that really true? Is it more user-error than the product itself? Is it a certain brand or just the coil-type ones?

It is the objective of this thread to find out!


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## Tom (Aug 21, 2012)

Firsthand: I have personally seen several species of reptiles have eye problems under cfl UV bulbs. I have also seen many instances of it here on this forum. By contrast, I have never seen any individual of any species ever have a problem under a MVB, tube type florescent or regular incandescent bulb, and I have seen tubes, MVBs, and regular bulbs used a lot more than the coil type cfls. Does every single reptile ever put under a cfl go blind immediately? No. No they do not. Do some of them have problems some of the time? Yes. Yes they do. The same cannot be said about MVBs or any other lighting source. By the same token: Can I play "russian roulette" and not shoot my self in the head? Yes. Yes I can. Doesn't mean I ought to. Seems a safer policy to me to NOT recommend anyone play "russian roulette" with their reptile's eyesight. If you choose to use these bulbs, you might be one of the lucky ones that has no problems, OR you might end up with a blind tortoise... Why on earth would anyone want to risk it?

Barbs point sums it up the best. What do we hobbyists gain from telling people not to use these? I make no money. No one associated with me makes any money. I don't make any money for anything I participate in on this forum. By contrast, what do the manufacturers and advertisers make by recommending cfl UV bulbs? They make millions in annual sales world wide. Why do they continue to manufacture and sell a potentially dangerous product? Because people keep buying them...


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## StudentoftheReptile (Aug 21, 2012)

Tom, just to put a point on it....can you specify which brands of CFL bulbs you have used and experienced issues with?


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## Maggie Cummings (Aug 21, 2012)

I was keeping 2 yearling Sulcata under either the ZooMed ReptiSun or Fluker Farms Sun Glow Coil Lantern. I was using both bulbs in a couple of different tanks. To make a long story short I ended up with one blind tortoise and one with partial damage that got better over time. The blinded one ended up with one blind eye and the other was damaged. I was using both types of bulbs and really didn't pay attention to which bulb was where. What I know is that damage was the most awful painful thing I ever saw on a baby. His eyes hurt so bad he drooled and foamed. The only time he didn't was when I put the Terramycin eye ointment in his eyes and I'd rub them for him, then soaked him in an antibiotic powder. I can 't narrow down which bulb was the actual culprit because I was using both types and I didn't know at the time that it was going to be important to know.
Do a search in our archives and you can probably find all the different discussions we've had about them...


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## Neal (Aug 21, 2012)

maggie3fan said:


> I was keeping 2 yearling Sulcata under either the ZooMed ReptiSun or Fluker Farms Sun Glow Coil Lantern. I was using both bulbs in a couple of different tanks. To make a long story short I ended up with one blind tortoise and one with partial damage that got better over time. The blinded one ended up with one blind eye and the other was damaged. I was using both types of bulbs and really didn't pay attention to which bulb was where. What I know is that damage was the most awful painful thing I ever saw on a baby. His eyes hurt so bad he drooled and foamed. The only time he didn't was when I put the Terramycin eye ointment in his eyes and I'd rub them for him, then soaked him in an antibiotic powder. I can 't narrow down which bulb was the actual culprit because I was using both types and I didn't know at the time that it was going to be important to know.
> Do a search in our archives and you can probably find all the different discussions we've had about them...



Maggie, how long ago did this occur?


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## StudentoftheReptile (Aug 21, 2012)

Maggie, do you know approximately when this was? I'll search through your posts but it may be easier if I have a time frame. 

LOL...Neal beat me to it!


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## Neal (Aug 21, 2012)

Also Maggie, how did you have the bulbs mounted?


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## StudentoftheReptile (Aug 21, 2012)

In the meantime, I have used the Exo-Terra brand 2.0 and 5.0 CFL bulbs in the past with other reptiles (mainly crested geckos) without any issues. These were mounted vertically in dome fixtures (before I did any aforementioned research on these bulbs and realized that horizontal mounting was ideal). Of course, I rarely saw the geckos out in the day, but the animals never had any blindness issues.

Also, in the LPS where I used to work, we had a huge wall display where we kept smaller herps in the Exo-Terra terrariums of various sizes. Likewise, we used the Exo-Terra brand CFLs and the fixtures. This was back 3 years ago and still in use today for many species, including geckos, small snakes, amphibians, baby dragons, chameleons, and other small lizards, etc...although no chelonians were ever kept in these displays. So far I was not, and still am not aware of any issues.

To confirm, these were Exo-Terra 2.0, 5.0 and 10.0 CFLs all mounted horizontally.


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## Neal (Aug 21, 2012)

StudentoftheReptile said:


> In the meantime, I have used the Exo-Terra brand 2.0 and 5.0 CFL bulbs in the past with other reptiles (mainly crested geckos) without any issues. These were mounted vertically in dome fixtures (before I did any aforementioned research on these bulbs and realized that horizontal mounting was ideal). Of course, I rarely saw the geckos out in the day, but the animals never had any blindness issues.
> 
> Also, in the LPS where I used to work, we had a huge wall display where we kept smaller herps in the Exo-Terra terrariums of various sizes. Likewise, we used the Exo-Terra brand CFLs and the fixtures. This was back 3 years ago and still in use today for many species, including geckos, small snakes, amphibians, baby dragons, chameleons, and other small lizards, etc...although no chelonians were ever kept in these displays. So far I was not, and still am not aware of any issues.
> 
> To confirm, these were Exo-Terra 2.0, 5.0 and 10.0 CFLs all mounted horizontally.





Reading through the case study here: http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor.htm it seems like the only CFL's with reported problems were the Reptisun brand. So, it's interesting to point out in your case (using Exo Terra) that you did not have any issues, and in Maggies case (using the Reptisun brand) she did have issues.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Aug 21, 2012)

Neal said:


> Reading through the case study here: http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor.htm it seems like the only CFL's with reported problems were the Reptisun brand.



Interesting since those are the only ones NOT spiral/coil-shaped. 



> So, it's interesting to point out in your case (using Exo Terra) that you did not have any issues, and in Maggies case (using the Reptisun brand) she did have issues.



Indeed.

I would still like to hear others' experiences, and like to know how Maggie had her bulbs mounted.


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## Mgridgaway (Aug 21, 2012)

Neal said:


> StudentoftheReptile said:
> 
> 
> > In the meantime, I have used the Exo-Terra brand 2.0 and 5.0 CFL bulbs in the past with other reptiles (mainly crested geckos) without any issues. These were mounted vertically in dome fixtures (before I did any aforementioned research on these bulbs and realized that horizontal mounting was ideal). Of course, I rarely saw the geckos out in the day, but the animals never had any blindness issues.
> ...





It's also important to note that Reptisun reformulated their CFL back in 2009. See the following link:

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor-summary.htm#update23sept09

Keep in mind that those studies are now a few years old. Things have changed.


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## wellington (Aug 21, 2012)

If you can trust them to have changed it, hmmm. One other point. Isn't at least half of the UVB pointing up, into the fixture, onmsome of them? Kinda a waist. I will stick to the ones we know are safe. After all, we all know the pellets are bad for tortoises, but they still keep selling them, with a tortoise on the bag


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## Edna (Aug 21, 2012)

Edna said:


> When I bought my first Hermanns as a hatchling (Jan., 2010) I purchased all the equipment for his initial set up at Petco, per their recommendations. That included a Zoo Med heat/light combo pack with a CFL 5.0 and a heat bulb. I mounted both bulbs in mini-dome fixtures and clamped them to the sides of his enclosure. That was his arrangement for 6-8 months, when I broke the CFL.
> He was fine, eating and active and no hint of a problem. He is just waking up downstairs as I type and is still happy and healthy.
> I am currently using some household CFLs for general lighting. The problems reported in 2008 with reptile CFLs were due to UV exposure, particularly UVC. CFLs for household use are designed to minimize UV light. My tortoises have an MVB for their UV needs.
> I found the radiographs on the following page useful and relevant.
> ...



I'm replying to myself because no one else seems to have noticed this post. 
Is this going to be a discussion in which all sides and experiences are welcome, or is it a thread where only the problems with the bulbs are important?


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## StudentoftheReptile (Aug 21, 2012)

Edna said:


> I'm replying to myself because no one else seems to have noticed this post.
> Is this going to be a discussion in which all sides and experiences are welcome, or is it a thread where only the problems with the bulbs are important?



I'm sorry, Edna, I for one was not intentionally ignoring your post. I did find the link you posted quite helpful, and hope others will, too!

Just to clarify from your post, you _were_ using a ZooMed ReptiSun 5.0 CFL and had no issues until the bulb itself simply broke. Then you switched to using normal household CFLs and also use a MVB for UV lighting. Your only issue was a bulb breaking, not problems with the animals, correct?
---------------------
To answer your question, I personally am interested on anyone who has used Compact Fluorescent Bulbs in any capacity, regardless of species, brand, mounting position, etc. Indeed, anyone who experienced heath issues with their animals using these bulbs are a little more paramount, but I think it is also important to hear of any positive experiences as well. This way, any future readers to this thread can get a more well-rounded perspective if exactly which bulbs are working well for which species under which circumstances...and those that are not.

I hope more people will join in and share their experiences. Surely there have been more than 3-4 people on this forum that have used CFLs!


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## Neal (Aug 21, 2012)

Edna said:


> I'm replying to myself because no one else seems to have noticed this post.



Lol, believe me, I understand posts being ignored...sorry I should have included your experience as well in post #14.

In the study I linked, the 5.0 rating saw less reported problems than the 10.0. Even then, since the manufacturer has claimed that the issues have been corrected and you purchased yours in 2010, I think your experience is evidence that the bulbs are OK. Thanks for sharing!


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## Edna (Aug 21, 2012)

StudentoftheReptile said:


> Just to clarify from your post, you _were_ using a ZooMed ReptiSun 5.0 CFL and had no issues until the bulb itself simply broke. Then you switched to using normal household CFLs and also use a MVB for UV lighting. Your only issue was a bulb breaking, not problems with the animals, correct?



Mostly correct. ReptiSun 5.0 CFL, 2010, Hermanns hatchling, and the only problem I had with it was it eventually broke. I switched to MVBs for light and heat, and have only very recently used household CFLs for additional general lighting in the enclosure.



StudentoftheReptile said:


> To answer your question, I personally am interested on anyone who has used Compact Fluorescent Bulbs in any capacity, regardless of species, brand, mounting position, etc. Indeed, anyone who experienced heath issues with their animals using these bulbs are a little more paramount, but I think it is also important to hear of any positive experiences as well. This way, any future readers to this thread can get a more well-rounded perspective if exactly which bulbs are working well for which species under which circumstances...and those that are not.



I'm glad you have opened up this topic as a discussion thread. It seems like our forum has a way of dealing with questions about CFLs that would tend to bring a halt to discussion and any discovery of truth. When we ascribe motives to to the questioner, such as thrift or convenience, that discourages questions. When we simply repeat the mantra "CFLs are bad" over and over again, that stands in the way of information.


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## DeanS (Aug 21, 2012)

NEVER! Absolutley NEVER! Too much risk involved...not worth it. I can only recommend sticking to the tried and true. I've always used the Powersun...the ONLY way I would consider change is if Dennis's Arcadias prove superior!


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## wellington (Aug 21, 2012)

I would like to know how early anyone's problems started. I am not sure if the 6-8 months is long enough for the problem to occur or be noticed. Maggie3fan, do you remember how long you were using them, before you noticed a problem? Just curious. Still think it's risky.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Aug 21, 2012)

While I appreciate (and agree with) the better-safe-than-sorry approach, I think those that share that view, we KNOW where you stand.....so can we please kinda keep this thread focused on those who have actually used the bulbs in questions, and their experiences, positive or negative?

I don't want every fifth post to be along the lines of _"I would NEVER use a compact fluorescent bulb! MVBs and tubes all the way, baby!"_ I get that, loud and clear. Like I said, I don't disagree with you. I just don't want this thread turning into...*that*. This isn't about discussing which lighting situation is best for your indoor tortoise habitat; that is discussed countless times elsewhere and is kinda unique to someone's situation. This is about the issues with CFLs exclusively and keeper's DIRECT experiences with them.

Thank you.


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## Neal (Aug 21, 2012)

wellington said:


> I would like to know how early anyone's problems started. I am not sure if the 6-8 months is long enough for the problem to occur or be noticed. Maggie3fan, do you remember how long you were using them, before you noticed a problem? Just curious. Still think it's risky.



You can view the case study results in the link I posted. It seems that most symptoms and issues appeared in less than 1 week


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## Tom (Aug 21, 2012)

Edna said:


> Edna said:
> 
> 
> > When I bought my first Hermanns as a hatchling (Jan., 2010) I purchased all the equipment for his initial set up at Petco, per their recommendations. That included a Zoo Med heat/light combo pack with a CFL 5.0 and a heat bulb. I mounted both bulbs in mini-dome fixtures and clamped them to the sides of his enclosure. That was his arrangement for 6-8 months, when I broke the CFL.
> ...



I read your post. Spent about 10 minutes looking over the myriad graphs. I didn't have anything to say back about it. No one is disputing that some people use these cfl bulbs and never have a problem. It happens all the time. I'm glad you were one of the lucky ones. The point of this discussion, and frankly all the other ones too, seems to be how often they DO have problems. Especially in contrast to all the other options.

Mike, I never looked at the brand names. The last case I saw was a few months ago, and it was a new bulb from Petco. She still had the package and it was the typical Reptile UV with some reptile pictured, but in all honesty I cannot remember which brand it was. I saw a coil bulb up in the fixture and thats all I needed to know. She removed the bulb and within a few weeks her animal recovered. If there is any permanent damage to the vision, we can't tell.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Aug 21, 2012)

Thanks, Tom. 

For future reference to anyone, it appears that regarding CFLs, Petco only carries Zilla & Zoomed (ReptiSun), and PETsMART offers Exo-Terra (Repti-Glo) and ZooMed.


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## Tom (Aug 21, 2012)

I've gotta say... I'm a bit sick of this issue. I don't understand what the problem is.

I've never seen anyone say to someone who has used a CFL bulb with no problems, "Yes you did have a problem..." There is no doubt that some percentage of people have used them without issue, right?

Now, is someone arguing that those that DID have a problem really didn't? Is that what we are arguing here?

I don't get it. SOMETIMES these bulbs blind reptiles and cause eye irritation. Sometimes. Not all the time. Only sometimes. This is not some problem from when these bulbs first hit the scene and needed some bugs worked out. I'm still seeing these issues within the last few months. The best policy, the only sensible policy, is to just not use them. If a noob asks a question of someone with experience, isn't it simple to just say, "Sometimes those cause problems. I recommend against them. Simply use this, this, or this instead..." What is wrong with that? Why all the discussion? There are other products available that do NOT cause these problems.

Our local unhelpful troll posts another pointless argumentative post on some other thread, and it leads to ANOTHER discussion about this same issue? Frustrating.


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## Neal (Aug 21, 2012)

The problem I have with this debate is that most of the arguments I have seen against CFL's have lacked the specifics and details as to what brand of bulb was used and how it was used, and instead have labeled all CFL's as inherently evil. On the same hand, there have been MVBâ€™s that have had issues which have had equally severe consequences as the CFLâ€™s have hadâ€¦yet we never read any threads or tirades over them.


I donâ€™t think there is anyone who would disagree with the better safe than sorry mindset...I certainly have no need for them currently, and do not recommend them. But, I often change lighting set ups, and to help any future decisions I make I would be curious to see if the issues have been with all brands of bulbs being set up as they were designed, or if it is some type of operator error. As of yet, I have not seen enough details to really establish some sort of conclusion about CFLâ€™s.


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## DeanS (Aug 21, 2012)

I'll admit it...I'm biased against ALL CFLs. But, given the results I've had with MVBs...why would I switch. One case of blindness with a CFL...unfortunate...two case? coincidental...after that? Damned for all time!


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## StudentoftheReptile (Aug 21, 2012)

Tom, I'm with you on this one, as well as Barb and Dean and many others. There are simply other much better products to use without resorting to these bulbs.

My main objective of this thread was to help clear at least SOME of the confusion surrounding them, mostly for those who still had questions and/or were still stubborn enough to still use them. I figured since there are:
- 4 principle brands
- 2 principle bulb shapes (coil/spiral and straight/U-shape)
- 2 different mounting orientations

...there could be some pattern behind this madness, given all the possible variables. While I'm not necessarily trying to justify or advocate these bulbs, I feel it behooves us as hobbyists to make sure what we're saying is true. It almost is like saying "Don't ever feed your tortoise lettuce!" Okay...well, yeah iceberg lettuce has virtually no nutritional value and obviously, no lettuce should be used as the sole food source. But other lettuces are not harmful if used to compliment a well-rounded balanced diet.

I look at the statement "All CFLs are bad!" kind of the same way. Are they really?

I could say "All tube fluorescent bulbs are bad" because one blinded my tortoises. Well, the truth of the matter is that I was using a Zilla Desert 50 T-5 bulb on a tropical forest species (redfoots). Not the brightest idea I've had, but I learned and the tortoises got better, thankfully. My point being, it would not be accurate for me to dismiss all tube florescents because of that one experience, would you not agree? If I was using a Zilla Tropical 25, would the same thing have happened? Who knows?

So back to the CFLs...are all of them really bad because of one brand? is it because people weren't mounting them properly? Were they using 10.0 desert series bulbs on tropical species? 



Neal said:


> The problem I have with this debate is that most of the arguments I have seen against CFL's have lacked the specifics and details as to what brand of bulb was used and how it was used, and instead have labeled all CFL's as inherently evil. On the same hand, there have been MVBâ€™s that have had issues which have had equally severe consequences as the CFLâ€™s have hadâ€¦yet we never read any threads or tirades over them.
> 
> I donâ€™t think there is anyone who would disagree with the better safe than sorry mindset...I certainly have no need for them currently, and do not recommend them. But, I often change lighting set ups, and to help any future decisions I make I would be curious to see if the issues have been with all brands of bulbs being set up as they were designed, or if it is some type of operator error. As of yet, I have not seen enough details to really establish some sort of conclusion about CFLâ€™s.



Thanks, Neal.

Once again, you have the same questions I have. To be honest, I refrain from using them with tortoises not necessarily because of the blindness issue, but because they simply do not cover a wide enough range IMO. I mean, I have a 3 ft x 4 ft cage. One 18" tube florescent mounted 12" from the substrate is half the cost of two CFLs and provides about equal (if not more) UV emission.

And for years, I've been a die-hard MVB fan, but in light of my own enclosure needs and the recent studies from TT, I don't think they are as ideal for tortoises as I originally thought. I still wouldn't hesitate to use them on lizards...just not on tortoises much.


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## Tom (Aug 21, 2012)

Neal said:


> The problem I have with this debate is that most of the arguments I have seen against CFL's have lacked the specifics and details as to what brand of bulb was used and how it was used, and instead have labeled all CFL's as inherently evil. On the same hand, there have been MVBâ€™s that have had issues which have had equally severe consequences as the CFLâ€™s have hadâ€¦yet we never read any threads or tirades over them.



I have never seen anyone say that ALL cfl bulbs are "inherently evil". That's the sort of dramatic statement I would use NEAL. I like it better when you stay on your usual higher plane... (Since you can't get tone from the typed word, everyone should know that Neal and I are friends and I'm just funnin' with him here). I recommend against anyone using them because they sometimes cause eye irritation or blindness. I keep hearing how MVBs have also had issues, but I have seen 10 times more MVBs in use than I have cfl's, and I personally, have NEVER seen said issues with MVB's. Now don't go wasting any time posting links to websites where these problems are listed. I've already seen them. My point is that in real life I have seen LOTS of issues with relatively FEW cfl bulbs in use, where I have also seen LOTS of MVBs in use with ZERO issues ever.

Dean's latest post sort of spelled it out. Once is a bummer, twice makes me go "Hmmm...", the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, etc... is enough for me to say, "Okay, there is a problem with this item, lets just not use it." If I had ever seen any problems with a MVB or any other product, I'd say the same thing. For example, I DO say the same thing about those death trap water bowls with the tall slick sides that the pet stores sell for tortoises.


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## Neal (Aug 21, 2012)

Tom said:


> Dean's latest post sort of spelled it out. Once is a bummer, twice makes me go "Hmmm...", the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, etc... is enough for me to say, "Okay, there is a problem with this item, lets just not use it." If I had ever seen any problems with a MVB or any other product, I'd say the same thing. For example, I DO say the same thing about those death trap water bowls with the tall slick sides that the pet stores sell for tortoises.



I get what you're saying and where you're coming from. And I know you don't like to get bogged down with specifics...but some of us do...and that's what I have felt has lacked with these other CFL discussions.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Aug 21, 2012)

Yes...remember that not everyone has seen all the reports and studies, etc.


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## Tom (Aug 21, 2012)

Neal said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > Dean's latest post sort of spelled it out. Once is a bummer, twice makes me go "Hmmm...", the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, etc... is enough for me to say, "Okay, there is a problem with this item, lets just not use it." If I had ever seen any problems with a MVB or any other product, I'd say the same thing. For example, I DO say the same thing about those death trap water bowls with the tall slick sides that the pet stores sell for tortoises.
> ...



Copy that.

You guys carry on with all the specifics that you want. I've made my case. I'll stay out of it, but check in periodically to see if any thing new is being discussed. Thanks for a civil discussion everyone.


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## wellington (Aug 21, 2012)

Was wondering, wouldn't testing these bulbs with a UVB meter (not sure the tech. name) settle this discussion?


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## Edna (Aug 21, 2012)

wellington said:


> Was wondering, wouldn't testing these bulbs with a UVB meter (not sure the tech. name) settle this discussion?



Apparently not, since they've been tested with UV meters and those links have been posted.


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## wellington (Aug 21, 2012)

Edna said:


> wellington said:
> 
> 
> > Was wondering, wouldn't testing these bulbs with a UVB meter (not sure the tech. name) settle this discussion?
> ...



None of the links are updated, 2009. The link you posted, well foreign to me. What I got out if it, is that one of the zilla bulbs puts out pretty much 0 uv. Most of us don't even know how much uv is exceptable. A simple experiment, without risking a torts eyes, by a member that has a meter, a few do, and this could possibly all be put to rest. Just a thought for any of you that wants to use them.


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## Mgridgaway (Aug 21, 2012)

Testing is hard mainly because UV meters are fairly expensive and such a niche tool. I don't know about you, but I have absolutely no interest in spending $100+ on testing equipment.

Also worth mentioning is that the type of reflector used can have a impact on the intensity of the CFL rays. I'm talking about aluminum inside vs white powder coat inside vs open cage, etc. I believe I read this on uvguide but has since been taken down since they're updating their page.

For what it's worth, I used a ZooMed CFL 10.0 bulb for my Iguana for nearly a year off and on while waiting for the whole reptileuv situation to work itself out. I had absolutely no problems mounted horizontally in a wire cage style fixture.

With that being said, I still prefer MVB. They last longer, provide heat, and I'm not a fan of fluorescents light color tone.


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## Turtulas-Len (Aug 21, 2012)

Could part of the problem be the enclosure setup, back in the late 90s my mep had eye problems that I blamed on the uv tube, but as time goes on I think the biggest problem was that the tortoise was forced to be in the direct uv rays unless he was in his hide, now I always make sure there are shaded areas in their setup for them to retreat to. just a thought.


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## jaizei (Aug 21, 2012)

Edna said:


> I'm glad you have opened up this topic as a discussion thread. It seems like our forum has a way of dealing with questions about CFLs that would tend to bring a halt to discussion and any discovery of truth. When we ascribe motives to to the questioner, such as thrift or convenience, that discourages questions. When we simply repeat the mantra "CFLs are bad" over and over again, that stands in the way of information.





Neal said:


> The problem I have with this debate is that most of the arguments I have seen against CFL's have lacked the specifics and details as to what brand of bulb was used and how it was used, and instead have labeled all CFL's as inherently evil. On the same hand, there have been MVBâ€™s that have had issues which have had equally severe consequences as the CFLâ€™s have hadâ€¦yet we never read any threads or tirades over them.
> 
> 
> I donâ€™t think there is anyone who would disagree with the better safe than sorry mindset...I certainly have no need for them currently, and do not recommend them. But, I often change lighting set ups, and to help any future decisions I make I would be curious to see if the issues have been with all brands of bulbs being set up as they were designed, or if it is some type of operator error. As of yet, I have not seen enough details to really establish some sort of conclusion about CFLâ€™s.



I am glad that Michael made this thread as well, and that there are others interested in learning more. 






StudentoftheReptile said:


> My main objective of this thread was to help clear at least SOME of the confusion surrounding them, mostly for those who still had questions and/or were still stubborn enough to still use them. I figured since there are:
> - 4 principle brands
> - 2 principle bulb shapes (coil/spiral and straight/U-shape)
> - 2 different mounting orientations
> ...



Even though it is somewhat out of date, I think that uvguide.co.uk is still the one of the best sources. The numbers are probably useless, but the ideas in general can help how you approach this.

I think the following points are important, and explain why the issue may persist even if there is no manufacture/design defect: 
_ A combination of other factors apparently increased the risk of photo-kerato-conjunctivitis with these lamps even further:

 In some cases, product literature did not give adequate information. It is essential that lamps are not sold without clear recommendations regarding suitable basking distances and the hazards of over-exposure. Many reptile keepers are unaware that there are any risks associated with close contact with a fluorescent UVB source. The history of fluorescent UVB lamps is such that they are often perceived as "weak" sources of UVB and keepers are often advised to position them close to the reptile.
 When placed in aluminium reflectors, in some cases UVB beneath compact lamps was increased by more than 700%. The extreme increase in UVB underneath aluminium reflector domes has not been widely known, or the hazard recognised, either by manufacturers or hobbyists.
 Most of the lamps have a low visible light output. They are therefore less likely to induce an aversive reaction, or pupillary constriction, when in the reptiles' line of sight. They do not "look like" very intense, direct tropical sunlight.
Most of the UVA output of these lamps is not in the visible UVA range for reptiles, since the threshold for vision is about 350nm. This reduces even further the visual impact of the lamp to the reptile.
 Fluorescent lamps produce a small amount of heat. This is insufficient to deter a reptile from a close approach, and in fact the gentle warmth may even prove an attraction. 
_

Even though the lamps now come with instructions, how many people really read them? I think most of the recent problems were caused by the way the lamps were used, and human nature. While I will argue with you all day about the lamps being designed for both mounting orientations, I do think there should be some consideration before just sticking the CFL in any old dome fixture. And using one of the combination hoods can be beneficial because it couples the CFL with a heat source. 







wellington said:


> Edna said:
> 
> 
> > wellington said:
> ...



I doubt it would make a difference in how this forum approaches this topic.







Tom said:


> I've gotta say... I'm a bit sick of this issue. I don't understand what the problem is.
> 
> I've never seen anyone say to someone who has used a CFL bulb with no problems, "Yes you did have a problem..." There is no doubt that some percentage of people have used them without issue, right?
> 
> ...



I love you too, Tom.

Discussion is one of the ways we learn. And when people are unafraid to ask questions or post their opinions/experiences, it's works even better.


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## wellington (Aug 22, 2012)

Len said:


> Could part of the problem be the enclosure setup, back in the late 90s my mep had eye problems that I blamed on the uv tube, but as time goes on I think the biggest problem was that the tortoise was forced to be in the direct uv rays unless he was in his hide, now I always make sure there are shaded areas in their setup for them to retreat to. just a thought.



That could probably play a big roll, in my opinion. In the wild, they would never stay in the sun for 8-12 hours a day. Heck, just watch them outside. The hottest, sunniest part of the day, they are hiding. However, on the other hand, the coils effect them within a week. A week or less being in a lot of safe uv, doesn't seem like it would be a big deal, bad uv, a big deal.

Good point by the way


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## StudentoftheReptile (Aug 22, 2012)

Update: It was pointed out to me by another member that Exo-Terra *does* specify either mounting is fine with their CFLs. 



> The spiral shape of the bulb enables vertical or horizontal mounting without compromising performance.



I don't know how I missed it. Guess I saw what I wanted to see. My mistake. [let it be known that I *can* admit when I am wrong ]



Mgridgaway said:


> Testing is hard mainly because UV meters are fairly expensive and such a niche tool. I don't know about you, but I have absolutely no interest in spending $100+ on testing equipment.



Ditto. It be nice, IF I already had a UV meter, and I already had some CFLs lying around, but I'm don't have the time, money or the will to risk the health of my tortoises to do this kind of test.



> Also worth mentioning is that the type of reflector used can have a impact on the intensity of the CFL rays. I'm talking about aluminum inside vs white powder coat inside vs open cage, etc. I believe I read this on uvguide but has since been taken down since they're updating their page.





> Could part of the problem be the enclosure setup, back in the late 90s my mep had eye problems that I blamed on the uv tube, but as time goes on I think the biggest problem was that the tortoise was forced to be in the direct uv rays unless he was in his hide, now I always make sure there are shaded areas in their setup for them to retreat to.





> In the wild, they would never stay in the sun for 8-12 hours a day. Heck, just watch them outside. The hottest, sunniest part of the day, they are hiding. However, on the other hand, the coils effect them within a week. A week or less being in a lot of safe uv, doesn't seem like it would be a big deal, bad uv, a big deal



See....THIS is the kind of stuff I want people thinking about! Good points definitely!



> For what it's worth, I used a ZooMed CFL 10.0 bulb for my Iguana for nearly a year off and on while waiting for the whole reptileuv situation to work itself out. I had absolutely no problems mounted horizontally in a wire cage style fixture.



Thank you.


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## Alice.S (Oct 4, 2012)

Hi,

Yeah, the subject heading was not optimal. I have no interest in UVB or UVA CFLs. I sought to use them for illumination to see by. The bulb I mentioned, a BluMax is intended for people who have SAD, your are supposed to have some eye contact with the bulb, that's why they sell them, that's why some medical professionals suggest their use. But the inherent problems with CFLs, the manufacture process damaging the phosphor coating, and the quality of the components of the ballast indicate to me, that no matter the type of illumination, they are not reliable from one bulb to the next. Perhaps some manufactures have better QC than others to monitor the phosphor coating issue, but I would presume they all use least cost ballast components.

I am not seeking to get UV from the bulb. So it goes back to simple psychological needs from illumination. 

I will try the BluMax T5 bulbs on myself and get a meter and measure their output. Again this bulb is intended for people to be under, on purpose, like being outside in the sun, for psychological well being. Most applications of all these bulbs (not tortoises) is under some sort of glass/plastic cover so that would mediate any chance UV exposure to people. As I'm not seeking to use the bulb for UV, if any issue arises I could easily get a panel of high-light greenhouse panel that cuts out the UV for greenhouses. Green house workers don't tan so much for all the hours they spend there.

I'll let you all know how it works out, with detail such at the excellent post by 'StudentoftheReptile' and recommendations for reporting results.

My interest in bright illumination is to grow actual food plants right in the enclosure. Activity patterns of some wild tortoises suggest they can do well in full sun on not so hot days. It seems temperature dictates their being out and about more than light. Do in-situ tortoises go blind? 

Any idea on what a tortoise does in the wild under the sun that prevents their going blind? I've seen tortoises out and about in full sun on a cool day at zoos, like Galaops. Do they sit with their eyes closed? They don't seem to be going blind?

I have sat in the shade of a tree, and watched a group of galops for several four hour episodes tracking their behavior for a psychology course in college. They did not go blind. A few just sat in full sun for the whole duration of the four hours.

An idea how this could be, compared to the NON-UV bulbs of any type?

As for alarmist posts, anyone recall that one year cranberries caused cancer? I don't find alarmist information of much utility. If the house is burning down, well alarm me. If we are talking about something, like a purchase decision, it provides no useful information. I worked retail for awhile, 'where's the bathroom' is the number one question. I did not sell it's sue it was just a part of the situation. I apologist for seeking information in the forum that you all have beat to death, but that a few answered with cogent rational thinking is very valuable to me, thank you.

Alice S.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Oct 4, 2012)

> Yeah, the subject heading was not optimal.



Sorry for the confusion. Its too late to change it now, unfortunately. I suppose a moderator could, but enough moderators have seen the thread since its creation and have presumably deemed that it is not that misleading.



> I have no interest in UVB or UVA CFLs. I sought to use them for illumination to see by. The bulb I mentioned, a BluMax is intended for people who have SAD, your are supposed to have some eye contact with the bulb, that's why they sell them, that's why some medical professionals suggest their use. But the inherent problems with CFLs, the manufacture process damaging the phosphor coating, and the quality of the components of the ballast indicate to me, that no matter the type of illumination, they are not reliable from one bulb to the next. Perhaps some manufactures have better QC than others to monitor the phosphor coating issue, but I would presume they all use least cost ballast components.
> 
> I am not seeking to get UV from the bulb. So it goes back to simple psychological needs from illumination.
> 
> ...



We look forward to hearing the results. I myself am personally concerned about using any bulb not specifically designed for reptiles on my tortoises, but do as you see fit. As you mentioned yourself, you are not interested in UVA/UVB output, which is what most tortoise keepers ARE interested in when dealing with flourescent bulbs of any kind.

You may want to consider using the plant bulbs sold for aquariums. They work just as well for non-aquatic plants, and are safe for animals. I have decent success growing plants in terrariums in the past.



> My interest in bright illumination is to grow actual food plants right in the enclosure. Activity patterns of some wild tortoises suggest they can do well in full sun on not so hot days. It seems temperature dictates their being out and about more than light. Do in-situ tortoises go blind?
> 
> Any idea on what a tortoise does in the wild under the sun that prevents their going blind? I've seen tortoises out and about in full sun on a cool day at zoos, like Galaops. Do they sit with their eyes closed? They don't seem to be going blind?



You are going on the mistaken assumption that any artificial light source can replicate the full spectrum, intensity, and universal distribution of natural sunlight at prime basking periods. There's not a bulb you can buy that comes close. Nothing will replace natural sunlight, which is why most people here suggest keeping your tortoise outside if at all possible. Even the suggested Mercury Vapor Bulbs and T-8/T-10 tube flourescent bulbs designed specifically for reptiles have their disadvantages. We as the collective herp industry do the best we can, and continue to refine our husbandry methods to have/keep healthier and happier animals. A lot of it is trial and error.



> I have sat in the shade of a tree, and watched a group of galops for several four hour episodes tracking their behavior for a psychology course in college. They did not go blind. A few just sat in full sun for the whole duration of the four hours.
> 
> An idea how this could be, compared to the NON-UV bulbs of any type?



Again, that was OUTSIDE in NATURAL SUNLIGHT. Comparing that experience to a non-UV bulb not designed for reptiles is like comparing apples to oranges. They are not the same. The issues people have is with a man-made light source with a focused beam of light coming out the end, something tortoise DO NOT encounter in the wild.



> If we are talking about something, like a purchase decision, it provides no useful information.



Not sure exactly what you meant by this, but I think I disagree. This thread and others like it does provide useful information, because it seeks to shed light on what seems to be a controversial issue among tortoise keepers.



> I apologist for seeking information in the forum that you all have beat to death, but that a few answered with cogent rational thinking is very valuable to me, thank you.



No worries. That is what the thread (and ultimately the entire forum) is for.


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## Alice.S (Oct 4, 2012)

http://www.fullspectrumsolutions.com/full-spectrum-light-bulb-comparison.htm

The link to the manufacture of the light. 

Alice S.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Oct 4, 2012)

Alice.S said:


> http://www.fullspectrumsolutions.com/full-spectrum-light-bulb-comparison.htm
> 
> The link to the manufacture of the light.
> 
> Alice S.



Thanks for the link. 

Nothing personal, but I have seen the "only full spectrum light bulb" claim many times before from many brands. I'm not saying BlueMax is a horrible bulb, and again, I look forward to your results with it.

But at the same token, you have to understand the perspective of many experienced tortoise keepers. We like to stick with what we know works and what we know is safe.


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## Tom (Oct 4, 2012)

Alice, I don't understand your leap from potentially eye damaging man-made light bulbs, to tortoises out in natural daylight the way they have been for millions of years... What does me thing have to do with the other. Are you saying that because our giant burning ball of gasses that sends photons through our atmosphere does not damage their eyes, that no man made bulb possibly could either?

No one that I know of has used the type of bulbs you are referring to over reptiles, so no one I know knows what will happen. Maybe you will discover something that helps the rest of us. Either way, I don't see what that has to do with watching Galops from under a shade tree for four hours, which by the way makes me very jealous. I would LOVE to sit and watch galops under a shade tree for four hours at a time!


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## Edna (Oct 4, 2012)

The CFLs that caused (or do cause) blindness did so because they produced non-terrestrial wave length light, light that is also produced by the sun but is filtered out by Earth's atmosphere. Animals in their natural state self-select to be in available sun or shade to meet their need for heat/light. Animals in an artificial environment might have limited opportunities to leave the light, receiving more hours of more damaging light than their wild or better-housed counterparts.


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## Alice.S (Oct 4, 2012)

Hi,

Edna seems to be referring to UV that is shorter wavelength than that which hits the earth's surface, that is a clear concern, and frankly stated - tank you Edna.

The one thing and the other Tom - illuminating light, the light we see by as we go about our day (inside by artificial means, and outside by sunlight), based on seeing galops outside in full sun, indicates to me that they do OK with all that illuminating light (color quality in terms of CRI and K temp). That and that alone is what I am going for with indoor lighting. 

The mercury vapor bulbs have horrible CRI as far as I could find evaluations, some have a good K temp. They are all more efficient at lumen/watt, so that is good.

I did not look through the forum for what MVB are favored or used, but google found in the forum mention of Nature Zone High Noon Mercury Vapor Bulbs. I did not find a source for the bulbs based on this name but from re-sellers. I did not find any technical data on them. I am no doubt not searching well - could you post a link to the tech data on this or whatever MVB that you-all suggest.

Alice S.


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## Tortus (Oct 11, 2012)

I'm sorry if I missed a similar comment in the thread, but what I don't get is why these bulbs will blind a tortoise but the sun won't. Isn't the sun much brighter or does it simply have to do with UV rays?


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## StudentoftheReptile (Oct 11, 2012)

No bulb offers all the "full spectrum' as the sun. No bulb will match that perfect natural balance of UVA, UVB, UVC, infrared, visible, etc etc...none of them.

Another thing you have to understand is that the sun is SOOOOO big, its light is universally shown across the landscape, depending on its angle (and except at night, obviously). It is not focused into a tight beam like our mercury vapor bulbs, heat bulbs, or compact florescents.

Now, yes, it's a bigger light source than any MVB or CFL bulb, but also, a lot of it is diffused by cloud cover and the various layers of the atmosphere. If we were getting 100% unfiltered sunlight, yeah, we'd not only be blind, but probably burned to a crisp like a vampire.

So that's why the tortoises don't get blinded by the sun.
----

We don't have all that in captivity, now do we? We just stick a lamp over the cage, point it straight down, and say, "There, it's just like the sun, right?" Wrong. Unless you can replicate miles of various atmospheric cover to filter out that bright artificial light, you're not close to simulating natural sunlight. It doesn't matter if it does say "full spectrum" on the label. It's not the same.

And that's why people are having issues with some of these bulbs.


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## Alice.S (Oct 12, 2012)

Hi Tortus,

I've search PubMed (both human and animals doctor's reports are here), not one mention of an animal/human becoming blind due to CFL's. From a non-peer reviewed website there is a report that some manufactures' bulbs (sold under proprietary names) had poor quality coating on the interior of the tube (the white stuff) and the potential source for eye damage may have been caused by light waves created in the tube, qualities of light that do not reach the earth's surface from the sun. Perhaps you could think of it as similar to a welding. That arc or electricity is burning metal, much like what goes on inside the CFL or straight tube for that matter. Welders wear safety glasses, the white stuff in the tube is the safety for the CFL. If that white stuff is not appropriate then eye damage could result, much like if a welders safety glasses were not made correctly the welder could get eye damage.

Any bulb designed to emit light by burning metal has this potential. Some factors that make it unlikely is that most CFL's are made with glass that contains impurities that also happen to cut out most UV rays, as well as any kind of glass/plastic/fabric shade or diffusing panel. Special quality glass is used for lights intended to emit some of the UV spectrum on purpose. Then those bulbs are not shaded or diffused because there is intent for the UV spectrum to be emitted.

So the white stuff could be the wrong formula, applied incorrectly, or damaged in the further process of making CFL into their spiral shape. Straight tube lights can be subject to the first two problems. However straight tubes have been manufactured for a good long time, so these quality control issues are reduced by practice of industry.

There are other issues with CFL's that would indicate that they are all poor quality based on the nature of the ballast. The CFL ballast is a throwaway part of the light, whereas for straight tubes' fixtures the ballast is intended to be used for many years. The CFL ballast is made as cheaply as possible, and so electromagnetic energy (radiation) is emitted as well. There are some statistical evidence based studies published in real medical journals suggesting some portion of the human population are effected by this type of radiation. Odds are some individual tortoises may be effected as well.

I've elected to use T5 straight tubes for many reasons. Right now there does not seem to be a US distributor for UV emitting T5 tubes. Some breeders of desert lizards and tortoises use nutritional supplementation to offset the lack of UV light, and quite successfully. Many herps were bred in all indoor set-ups long before all these lights were packaged for the reptile keeper, including tortoises and desert dwelling lizards. It's perhaps easier to use lights than nutritional support, but that would depend on the nature of your husbandry techniques.

Alice S.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Oct 15, 2012)

Alice.S said:


> Hi Tortus,
> 
> I've search PubMed (both human and animals doctor's reports are here), not one mention of an animal/human becoming blind due to CFL's.



Specifically, what animal species were tested? LOL...there's a LOT of species compiled into two entire phylums!



> So the white stuff could be the wrong formula, applied incorrectly, or damaged in the further process of making CFL into their spiral shape. Straight tube lights can be subject to the first two problems. However straight tubes have been manufactured for a good long time, so these quality control issues are reduced by practice of industry.



Ditto. A clear example of how an old school product is tried and true over a "new" and more convenient one. I wish more people would realize this. I and many others don't suggest tube bulbs just because they look nice. They WORK, most of the bugs have been worked out and fewer issues to worry about, compared to this CFL matter.



> I've elected to use T5 straight tubes for many reasons. Right now there does not seem to be a US distributor for UV emitting T5 tubes. Some breeders of desert lizards and tortoises use nutritional supplementation to offset the lack of UV light, and quite successfully. Many herps were bred in all indoor set-ups long before all these lights were packaged for the reptile keeper, including tortoises and desert dwelling lizards. It's perhaps easier to use lights than nutritional support, but that would depend on the nature of your husbandry techniques.



Again, ditto. And a lot of keepers seem to be very afraid of taking their tortoises outside. It had been said many times, in a healthy set-up, you can probably take your tortoise outside once a week for 30 minutes or so, and it will get all the UV and vitamin d3 it needs.


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