# VitaShell



## Tom

Throughout my tortoise keeping "career" which officially started in 1986, even though I had a single box turtle in 1979, I have read and been taught a whole lot of stuff. After I learned this stuff, I repeated it and taught it to customers, acquaintances, friends and family. Much of it was just plain wrong. Some examples: Tortoises get all the water they need from the food they eat. Since they come from the desert, they must be kept hot and dry or they will get respiratory infections and shell rot and die. Giving them a water bowl will add too much humidity and they will get sick. Its fine to keep different species together as long as they don't fight. Romaine lettuce is a great staple, much better than iceberg. With the right diet they don't need any calcium supplementation. They must get calcium supplementation every day. They should be fed only fruits and vegetables, but no meat or dog food. Never feed ANY kind of prepared, manufactured or processed food. Excess protein causes pyramiding. Rabbit pellets are the best substrate for tortoises. The list could just go on and on... Another one was don't put any of that lotion or spray cra* on your tortoise's shell. I would say they don't need it and its not "natural".

Well the last few years, and especially the last year here on the forum, have really opened my eyes and my MIND to new ideas and re-thinking old ideas. If someone walked into my pet shop 15 years ago and said they were keeping a sulcata in swampy conditions, we would have had a big argument about their fitness to be keeping pets. (This is only one reason why I understand the general publics resistance to new and better ideas, and why I like to show FACTUAL EVIDENCE right up front nowadays.) In the past couple of years I've seen several anecdotal cases where some "schmutz" applied to the shell on a regular basis produced a healthy looking, smooth tortoise, despite care and conditions that, in theory, shouldn't have. I've heard of olive oil, mineral oil and "VitaShell" being used to grow a healthy shell. Other than being messy and potentially attracting dirt, I can't see how it can harm anything, so in the interest of being open-minded to new possibilities, I want to give it a try. I'm going to take one hatchling sulcata and raise him the same way I usually do in a convention set up with a heat lamp, hide box, damp substrate, water bowl, daily sun and soaks mixed diet etc... The directions on the label say to apply it weekly, so that is how I will start it. I'm worried that the intense moisture routine might prematurely wash it off, so I might decide to apply it more often. If that happens, it will be noted here in an update post.

Here is part of what I am thinking: It SEEMS that dried out, stiff keratinous scutes are part of what causes the underlying bone to malform and grow upward into porous pyramids. All the shell spraying and humidity is an effort to keep things on the shell "lubricated" to borrow Mr. Fife's term. Pliable, if you will. Well the VitaShell is supposed to do just that. Last years EOP babies turned out really good, but not perfect. I want to see if this "stuff" will get me any closer to "perfect". Now mind you its is made and manufactured specifically for turtles and tortoises, and I know many people have used it in the past, so I'm making an educated guess that it will do no harm. I do want to experiment with some variables, but I will not intentionally or knowingly harm any tortoises in the process. Now I know that no one is out there in the wild putting "tortoise lotion" on wild sulcata babies. But the FACT is that NOBODY really knows what the babies are doing in the wild up until they hit that 8-10" mark and start showing themselves in broad daylight above ground. What we have figured out REALLY well over the last two decades of captive raising sulcatas and leopards is what does NOT work. I'll give this a try for a few months and see how it goes.

I just bought the stuff this evening, so I'll pick the tort and post some pics of the lucky winner tomorrow.


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## Neal

I've actually been using this on two of my leopards hatched out about 4 months or so now. It's been working great. I apply it once a week. I have not experimented with it to determine if that is the key variable to my leopards growing smooth, but I have never had issues with it.

It was all but necessary for me keeping box turtles here in AZ. My turtles had shell flaking and drying issues with being in a desert environment. I used it for years on them. Never had any issues whatsoever, even the dirt sticking to it has never been a problem.


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## Tortuga_terrestre

I use to put that stuff on my russian...it made the colors stand out more and i figured it would prevent cracking...hahaha.. I was 18 when i purchased cecilia..i got her from the same petshop the movie g-force was filmed..


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## OllieInAZ

(applause) I look forward to hearing your results. Personally, ive thought about natural oils. I've read lots of people discourage applying anything to the shell. But, I wonder what our pet torts are missing from not rubbing through foilage, roots, mud, etc


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## Tom

Wow. I expected to be laughed at and harangued. I was still going to try it anyway, but it will be much nicer this way. As usual, whatever the results are, it will be on public display.

Its comforting to know that at least two people have done it before with no problems. Did it seem like once a week was adequate for you two? I've never used it, so is it the type of thing that will wash off in daily soaks?


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## l0velesly

This sounds like a wonderful experiment! I was speculating on whether or not to buy VitaShell. I wanted something to heal my tort's flaky skin and dry shell, but then I heard bad reviews about it so I got discouraged. Now I'm thinking about getting it again and applying it once in a while. Oils shouldn't hurt, right?


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## Starjelly

I've been using olive oil and it works great never had a prob


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## coreyc

I used it last year for a little while but stopped maybe I'll have to start using it again  And Tom give your self some credit forward progress on keeping a smooth shell tort has to start some where from some one I am glad you are doing what your doing and sharing it with us keep it up


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## Yvonne G

For the experimant, I would rather you replaced the spraying with the cream. I think it would be a better test.


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## Tom

emysemys said:


> For the experimant, I would rather you replaced the spraying with the cream. I think it would be a better test.



I've considered this, but it is so ingrained in me now, I don't know if I can stop myself.

The lessons and failures of the past just haunt me. I look at my adults and just kick myself! Why couldn't I have figured these thing out 20 years ago?


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## Neal

Tom said:


> Did it seem like once a week was adequate for you two? I've never used it, so is it the type of thing that will wash off in daily soaks?



Once a week has been good enough. I usually put it on Sunday night and by Monday morning it's completely absorbed. I have never noticed it washing off in soaks, but after you put it on you can't see it, but you can smell it though. The smell usually goes away by Saturday. 

People that don't like it say they have seen tortoises with Vitashell built up and they can scratch it off with their finger nails. I've never been able to do that. My intent was to scrub off the previous weeks application before applying a new layer but by the end of the week there wasn't anything to rub off. I'm guessing their tortoises had the stuff applied more frequently than is suggested.


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## DeanS

Tom said:


> emysemys said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the experimant, I would rather you replaced the spraying with the cream. I think it would be a better test.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've considered this, but it is so ingrained in me now, I don't know if I can stop myself.
> 
> The lessons and failures of the past just haunt me. I look at my adults and just kick myself! Why couldn't I have figured these thing out 20 years ago?
Click to expand...


I was thinking along Yvonne's train of thought here...I would imagine the consistency of VitaShell would just cause (water) run-off, anyway...and maybe even breakdown (however slightly) the active ingredients of the compounds. I did the olive oil thing last fall-winter with Eggroll...and came to the conclusion that it neither helped nor hindered. I will say that with all the misting, the babies are dry within minutes. Is it a matter of run-off, quick drying time, absorption (again, however slight) or a combination of all three. I think I'm gonna sit on the fence for a little while and see what transpires. If the feedback is significant enough, then I'll try it, too! But, I feel I've put the babies through enough rigors and regimens, to hold off on this one...for awhile, anyway



BTW...here are some testimonials I found on their website..."Katie from Madison" is the ONLY one that is convincing to me. But, more than anything, I'm curious what the members here turn up...

Jennifer L
Vineland, NJ
I love VitaShell and so does my box turtle. It softens and moisturizes her shell and skin. 


Katie 
Madison, WI
My tortoise always gets a Vitashell rub after her soak. It really brings out the patterns in her shell. And I think it helps her during the winter months when the air in the house is so dry.


David K
Syracuse, NY
I use this stuff on my Eastern Box turtles. It softens their skin and keeps them looking great. This cream makes their shells look awesome. It brings out the colors and intricate patterns in the shells and leaves a semi glossy look on them. A great treatment for them once every two weeks and I can tell they love it!


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## dmarcus

I look forward to seeing the results from this. I don't think anyone has the 100% fool prrof way to raise a captive born tortoise or turtle, it's take time and some error to help us learn what works and what does not.


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## DeanS

More from the website...

* Turtle shell and skin conditioner 
* Helps revitalize your turtle's dry, brittle shell and skin 
* Non-greasy cream formula is easy to apply 


A deep-penetrating, concentrated, skin and shell conditioning cream for turtles. Non-greasy formula combines moisturizers, conditioners, and proteins in a unique, deep-penetrating cream that helps revitalize dry, brittle shells and skin. Apply to your turtle's shell or skin with your hand, coton swab or soft cloth. Use weekly. 2 oz.

Ingredients...

Purified Softened Water, Sunflower Oil, Emulsifying Wax, Cetyl Alcohol, Coconut Oil, Palm Oil, Soybean Oil, Glycerin, Lanolin, Cottonseed Oil, Steramidopropyl, Dimethylamine Lactate, Protein Conditioners, Diazolidnyl Urea, Rosemary Oil, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, FD&C Yellow #6.


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## October

When I got my Morla, her previous owner said that she soaked Morla daily and also applied the VitaShell daily. The container she gave me was hardly touched so I don't know if she had just started the routine or was just on a new tub. I didn't notice any kind of build up or smell or dirt attraction. 

I haven't used it because it seemed silly to rub something on a tortoise's shell, but maybe I'll give it another go. I love your little experiments Tom. Good luck!


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## DesertGrandma

This makes sense to me. My fingernails get very dry in the summer and I am continually putting oils and creams on them to keep them from cracking and splitting. Frequent exposure to water makes them worse. Seems like it would be the same for a tortoise shell?? I'm anxious to hear if it works. Thanks Tom.


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## GeoTerraTestudo

I just left a comment on Vita Shell here:
"Vita Shell?"

In a nutshell, based on what I've read, I don't think this is a particularly good product. I have used it, and it did make my redfoot's shell look shiny; I used it on my own fingernail cuticles, and it basically did the same thing for me. However, according to the Tortoise Trust, using this stuff too frequently can clog your tortoise's pores and stunt the growth of its scutes. Having the right level of humidity is better than providing an emolient.


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## GBtortoises

Taken from an article on tortoise care from the Tortoise Trust website:

"Another misconception is preparations of some type (many of which are commercial) are recommended, to be placed on the shell, to "give it nutrients" and make it shiny. Many, if not most of these products, are potentially harmful. 

Both the carapace and the plastron of a tortoise or turtle is comprised of living tissue. It needs oxygen and exposure to sunlight to keep healthy. 

The build-up of soils, waxes, oils, or other preparations, is actually harmful to a tortoise's shell. The keratin and bony layers contain millions of microscopic pores, and things such as the products mentioned actually clog the pores, causing problems."

While not a scientific explanation, it is one that I've always believed and stick with. I've never read of or seen any proof that coating a living tortoises shell with oil does anything except form a coating that limits air contact and collects dust and dirt. Why would oil be acceptable to coat a tortoise with but not paint? They effectively are doing the same thing. 

I've never seen any logical reason to coat a tortoises shell with oils or waxes except to please the human eye. They do fine and grow just fine "au naturel" both in the wild and in captivity as long as their shells are kept fairly clean to allow for UV and heat absorption. Not being coated may also help to dissipate heat too.


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## Maggie Cummings

I hate to agree with TT, but I'm going to this time. A tortoise's shell is made up of living tissue that needs to breathe, and a product like Vita Shell will clog the pores and prevent this breathing...I think humidity is better for them


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## Yvonne G

I really don't think there are any "pores" on a tortoise's shell.

The difference between paint and oil is that oil will still allow for the shell to expand and grow, while paint does not.

I think its just like any other product. It can be used and it can be abused. I don't see anything wrong with using it and washing it off before the next application.


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## Tom

Maggie and GB, I have tremendous respect for you both and I hear you. I have always believed and said the same things you are now saying. I have raised turtles and tortoises for nearly my whole life and never put any schmutz on any of them. I just want to see if this is one more of those long held beliefs that just hold no water. Just like the "Desert" conditions for sulcatas and leopards. Remember that AH of the TT also said that the humidity thing was just a red herring and compared people who subscribed to the theory to space alien enthusiasts. That was just a few short years ago. Of course, he's done a 180 on that now...

If I really thought it would do harm, I would not do it. People have living, breathing skin with millions of pores too and yet my wife heaps tons of this kind of sploochy stuff all over herself everyday. Her skins feels pretty darn nice. One difference between this and paint is that is absorbs and dissipates and its only applied once a week, while paint is a "permanent" impenetrable barrier.

Part of the problem that I'm seeing is that in between shell sprayings their shells are just bone dry whether they are inside or out in the sun. I'm doing all I can for humidity, yet my hatchlings are still not perfect. They are 1000 times better than they ever have been, but there is still room for improvement. This is one effort to see if I can compensate for the dry shells and the problems caused by it.

I have two other experiments running this year that I will post on later today or tomorrow. These also focus on eliminating the dry shells, but still meeting all the tortoises needs. I will want your input there too.

You guys might be right about this, but sometimes people have to see for themselves. As always thank you both for posting and contributing your thoughts on the matter. I always appreciate your input.


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## GBtortoises

Tom-I'm not _disagreeing_ with you. I just don't really see the point of the practice. Highfield a dozen years ago also attributed pyramiding almost soley to excessive protein. Read what he says about that now. I'm not defending him, but he does have many good ideas, as do several people on this site. One major difference is that he has extensive fieldwork experience, far more than anyone that frequents this site as far as I know. But then another difference _in my opinion_ is that on this site we can voice our differences without being lambasted for "going against the Master" (he has an almost cult like following to some). Sorry for getting off subject...
I'm not saying that someone else doing it is right or wrong, but I simply don't see a point, or advantage in coating a tortoise or turtles shell with a film of oil. Don't they do just fine naturally without it? If that is the case why would they need it now? Many years ago the practice was to use cod liver oil and/or vitamin "E" oil and wipe down tortoise and turtle shells. I did it often, as did many people I know. All I ever saw as results was lots of dirt, dust and grime stuck to the shells, which sometime led to shell fungus and rot when the foreign matter got into any void in the scutes. I stopped doing it. I never noticed a benefit from it, but did notice problems from it. If someone is going to use Vitashell why not safe a lot of money and just use any type of vegetable oil instead. According to the ingredients that is what it is primarly comprised of, several different types of vegetable based oils along with some binders to hold it together.
Despite contrary believe, keratin is porous (just confirmed it with a Bing search) but it obviously does not have the large size pores that soft tissue does so it's difficult accurately compare the two. Skin is extremely absorbent by comparison. Which leads to my point of the "goop" just sitting on top of the keratin. It acts like paint by mainly sitting on top of the pores and blocking them. Way back when turtles were being painted the problem wasn't that they couldn't grow because they had paint on them, the problem was that the paint formed a barrier and was blocking out UV absorption and probably air exchange. 
All that being the case it would stand to reason that the thickness of a material put on a tortoise's shell would probably determine is absorption potential. Oil is thicker than water.
Like I said, I simply don't see the point, or maybe more appropriately, the _necessity_ of this practice. I've never seen a tortoise do better because of a shiny wax job. On the flip side, I've seen turtle wax give a heck of shine so if some is inclined to see a shine, wax your car, not your tortoise!


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## Zouave

Kudos to you Tom! For putting your experiments on display for the world to witness and digest.

A couple thoughts:
With the amount of misting/spraying/soaking/swimming/diving that many modern captive tortoises enjoy, i don't think that this moisturizer (thats all it really is) would end up clogging pores. Seeing as all the ingredients are also used in many human (even baby) products with no ill skin clogging effects it is presumable that it would be safe for tortoises. Now that's not saying it hasn't been used improperly or under incorrect conditions in the past. 


> Ingredients:
> Purified softened water, sunflower oil, emulsifying wax NF, cetyl alcohol, coconut oil, pal oil, soybean oil, glycerine, lanolin, cotton seed oil, stearamidopropyl dimethylamin lactate, protein conditioners, diazolidinyl urea, rosemary oil, methylparaben, propylparaben, FD&C yellow 6.


Natural oils, an emulsifier, a preservative, an anti microbial, an anti fungal and some food colour. thats all it is. Some big words there but much of them naturally occurring chemicals. The cetyl alcohol MAY be petroleum based but could also be vegetable based.

Also this notion of, "If it doesn't happen in the wild then i wouldn't/won't", rings kinda hollow. Most animal keepers try to provide BETTER than wild conditions not equal. What wild animals can find food waiting for them everyday of the year without working for it? Wild animals don't get expensive surgeries or medications (save for a few that are being studied but then one could make the argument that they are being kept, lol), nice hot basking spots available whenever they want, Lets not even start on protection from predators. Tortoises are the worlds best survivors because they can tolerate some pretty terrible times if they have to but no one would knowingly keep torts that way (well most no one) so why not try something new if it seems it will do no harm and who knows maybe some good? 

My two cents


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## Tom

"I'm not saying that someone else doing it is right or wrong, but I simply don't see a point, or advantage in coating a tortoise or turtles shell with a film of oil. Don't they do just fine naturally without it?" -GB

Ahh... herein lies our point of contention. Well its not really "contention" just a little friendly discussion. YOUR tortoises in YOUR environment are probably doing just fine without it. You are a great keeper and you know your species as well or better than any one else I know. I, on the other hand, don't have the experience with my species and the number of individuals that you have. Further, even with monumental effort, my hatchlings still are not where I want them to be. They are much better than any that I've ever done before, but I want them to be as perfect as I can make them. So while you are satisfied with the growth of YOUR babies, I am not yet. THIS is the reason why I keep trying to explore new ways of doing things and improving upon what I already have. I wish I could get you out here and show you just how dry it really is. BTW, I don't think I would do this with any Testudo species, but these darn sulcatas and leopards just don't wanna grow smooth!

Zouave, you make a good point about what happens in the wild and I agree completely. The example I like to use is that mother nature hatches 100's or thousands of tortoises just to get ONE to adulthood. Mimicking nature is not an acceptable survival rate for me.


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## GBtortoises

*Tom*: No contention here, just discussion. I'll try not to beat this to death, _but..._ My point still is and may always be that I see no legitimate purpose for coating a living tortoises shell with grease and oil, suffocating it's ability to breath and attracting dirt, dust and unknowns that can potentially lead to shell problems. That has nothing to do with how well mine, yours or anyone elses baby tortoises are growing. For the most part, raising baby tortoises is actually a fairly basic and simple process, one that most of us have figured out. And that's not a zing, I am referring to you and many other people on this site and in the hobby. Incidentally, Highfield believes that the whole "necessary humidity" issue is BS and has done field readings showing how dry it actually is a Mediterranean tortoise's natural habitat. And yet, they grow smooth in the wild. Why? I wish I had the answer! 

*Zouave*: I've never heard another tortoise keeper say, or said myself that: "If it doesn't happen in the wild then I wouldn't/won't." Nothing could be farther from the truth! If that were the case all of us that supposedly believe that would let our tortoise roam free, with no barriers to keep them in; we wouldn't feed them, we would let them fend for themselves; we wouldn't medicate a sick or injured one, we would let nature take it's course; we wouldn't dig up any eggs and artificially incubate them, we would leave them in the ground and hope for the best; and so on and so on. Your statement is ludicrous and with no basis of truth.

*Tom*: I'm very open to new ideas when it comes to improving captive tortoise care, always have been, always will be. If I weren't I might think that keeping tortoises on pine shavings, with a plain old light bulb, feeding them grocery store trimmings and only letting them outdoors occasionally was a good idea. But I don't think that way at all. I also don't for one minute think or believe that emulating their wild condition is possible in captivity. Do I believe in keeping them as natural (not to be confused with wild) as possible? To the degree of them remaining safe and healthy, yes, I do. Some things work in captivity, some don't. Some are a good idea, some aren't. It's that simple.

I'm interested to see the long term results of your experiment, I sincerely mean that. If it makes a positive difference I will be one of the first to congratulate you. If I think that it will benefit my tortoises and husbandry methods then I will probably be one of the first to adapt to it too. And I sincerely mean that also. I don't think there are any "experts" in this hobby. Maybe some have more experience, which is not always necessarily good experience either. I still and have always maintained that sucessful captive tortoise care needs to be based on a keeper's knowledge of their tortoises geographic origin, their species requirements and the environment/climate in which their being kept. But the beauty of this hobby are sites like this one where people of all levels, from beginner to old and crusty can share ideas and learn something new.


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## Tom

GB, your post is very clear, well-worded, and concise, as usual. I understand your POV completely. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Just like with my other experiments, the results, good or bad will be posted here for all to evaluate and make their own conclusions about what is best for THEIR situation.


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## GBtortoises

To be very honest Tom, the fact that you're willing to constantly stick your neck out on this (or any) public forum and say: "I'm going to try this, see what happens and let everyone watch" is applaudable in itself. I tend to do things privately and not share the idea until I _know_ the outcome. Admittedly, your way is much better for everyone here to be able to contribute and to learn from so please don't stop doing what you do.


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## expiredgummiworm

-the way i see it-
a tortoise in the wild would rub up against all kinds of plants.
these plants secrete oils...

as long as it is used properly, or even used even more sparingly than recommended couldnt be harmful.


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## OllieInAZ

I totally agree.




expiredgummiworm said:


> -the way i see it-
> a tortoise in the wild would rub up against all kinds of plants.
> these plants secrete oils...
> 
> as long as it is used properly, or even used even more sparingly than recommended couldnt be harmful.


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## Zouave

GBtortoises said:


> *Zouave*: I've never heard another tortoise keeper say, or said myself that: "If it doesn't happen in the wild then I wouldn't/won't." Nothing could be farther from the truth! If that were the case all of us that supposedly believe that would let our tortoise roam free, with no barriers to keep them in; we wouldn't feed them, we would let them fend for themselves; we wouldn't medicate a sick or injured one, we would let nature take it's course; we wouldn't dig up any eggs and artificially incubate them, we would leave them in the ground and hope for the best; and so on and so on. Your statement is ludicrous and with no basis of truth.



Really? You've NEVER heard or read a statement like that? lol Now who's being ludicrous with no basis in truth? 

Incidentally, i think it's very telling that you ignored the first part of my post which dealt with the clogging issue you raised and instead focused on the second part which was off-topic at best and really not directed at you. I think you realized after reading the ingredients that there are no potential hazards and therefore, to save face, attacked the less important part of the post in hopes of invalidating my responses and possibly shutting me up. This is a classic internet forum troll tactic and i've seen it time and again. It won't work on this guy. I also won't continue this line of conversation in this important thread but a response was needed.

@ Tom - Sorry for getting offtopic but i don't suffer trolls. Never have, never will.


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## dmmj

Personally I don't think it will harm or benefit the tortoise, but as always I am waiting to see the experiment and see what happens. As for the living aspect of the shell, I have always been told and believed that the shell is more like fingernail (although thick) then bone. The top layers anyways. Like I said I don't really see it harming or helping but I can't wait for the results, either way. Tom is always willing to put his experiments under the microscope for which i am grateful I believe it adds another aspect to tortoise raising, to see them progress under different conditions.


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## Fernando

dmmj said:


> Tom is always willing to put his experiments under the microscope for which i am grateful I believe it adds another aspect to tortoise raising, to see them progress under different conditions.



Ditto +1


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## Tom

Here is "Mr. VitaShell". He is one of Chewy and Scooter's babies and came out of the brooder box a couple of days ago. I can tell him from the others because his brown rings around his scutes are a bit darker and thicker. Plus, he'll be the one with the schmutz on his shell.  He'll be in a conventional set up with his two siblings and an overhead heat lamp. I have decided NOT to spray his shell several times a day, but I will still spray his siblings. He will still get daily soaks, and they have a humid hide box too. I think this will give us a pretty neat comparison.














And here he is back in his enclosure after his first application of the product. Its just incandescent lighting and that's why the color looks different. As soon as it warms up again I'll get more pics out in the sun.


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## gmayor

thats so cute!!! lol...


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## dmarcus

That is a nice looking tort...


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## ChiKat

Too much cuteness!! Oh my gosh, look at his little face!! Quite possible one of the cutest little babies I have ever seen!!


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## HLogic

Tom, if you use the schmutz AND don't spray, you have changed two variables. It may be difficult to determine which contributed to any difference in development by doing so. To isolate the schmutz as a single variable it may be better to recruit another subject for a schmutz + spray regimen so the schmutz can be isolated from the current spray-only regimen. Follow?


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## Tom

HLogic said:


> Tom, if you use the schmutz AND don't spray, you have changed two variables. It may be difficult to determine which contributed to any difference in development by doing so. To isolate the schmutz as a single variable it may be better to recruit another subject for a schmutz + spray regimen so the schmutz can be isolated from the current spray-only regimen. Follow?



Yes. Copy that. There are three hatchlings in the enclosure. I can easily accommodate all three variables.
1. Schmutz only, no spraying.
2. Schmutz AND spraying.
3. No schmutz, but with shell spraying.

These three are clutch mates and all hatched right around the same time. The one thing that I'm afraid will throw off the whole experiment is if one or two of them develop a preference for more time in the humid hide box. At least I have a base line for hatchlings raised in exactly the same way from last year, but all with no schmutz.


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## Yvonne G

I'm trying to picture what an online translator is doing to this thread.


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## dmmj

I'm lost what's Schmutz?


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## Tom

You know, schmutz. Sploochy stuff. Product. Schmere. Etc...

Its stuff you slather on.


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## Fernando

Schmere...that's the stuff they put on bagels right?


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## HLogic

Schmear is special-purpose schmutz...


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## Isa

dmmj said:


> I'm lost what's Schmutz?



I was wondering the same thing lol.


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## Sky2Mina

Schmutz is german for dirt. 
I'm wondering if it's the name of a product to keep the shell clean/healthy? 
If so, the product company... failed. 

Good luck with the experiment. Always interesting to see the results, even though I don't keep sulcata (and won't for a long long time).

Mina


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## yagyujubei

Also yiddish for dirt "oy veh, look at the schmutz on your face"


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## Balboa

Good job Tom, I'm interested as well.

Neal convinced me to go ahead and try vitashell. I don't apply it on a regular basis, just once in a while if the shells are looking especially dry.

I've done some thinking on the subject...

With living tissue ON HUMANS we can actually over dry it by applying water. "licking chapped lips", frequent rinsing drying out our hands, etc..

could there be a point where frequent misting actually harms the carapace more than helps? say if the air was so dry that in minutes after misting the carapace was totally dried out again?

vitashell is basically moisturizer, it should help to "replenish" the oils in dead tissues on toirtoises same as humans. Chances are it won't really help much in a "properly" humidified environment (whatever we EVER decide that to be), but may be helpful for those that struggle in that area.


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## drift2sea

It is helping me right now with me dropping the humidity to help kill off the shell rot.She is getting not dried out but ill say i little parched in some skin areas.it does help to keep her smooth.


----------



## Tom

Balboa said:


> could there be a point where frequent misting actually harms the carapace more than helps? say if the air was so dry that in minutes after misting the carapace was totally dried out again?



Good points as usual Balboa. The above quote describes my situation exactly. They are bone dry literally within minutes of me spraying them.

The Vita shell seems to be working fantastically so far. I'll get some pics up ASAP.


----------



## Tom

So after nearly a month, all is going very well. These three are in the same partially covered 40 gallon that last years EOP babies started out in. They hatched at 34-35 grams and are now 51 grams on the one that gets no VitaShell, 55 on the one that gets VitaShell AND water spraying, and 56 on the big fatty that gets VitaShell and NO spraying. At this point I don't think the weights have any relevance. They all grow at different rates. I just note them for fun and to show that they are all gaining weight and growing. They all get daily soaks and an hour or two of sunshine around 5 days a week. They are all dry in these pics. An interesting note is that when I rub their VitaShell on every Sunday, it really fills in the crevices between the scutes. It mostly absorbs within an hour or two and then their shells just feel normal even though they look more "moisturized".


----------



## jackrat

Their shells couldn't look any better,Tom.


----------



## drift2sea

I seen someone replied that the product after a while cakes up and can be scratched off.I clean my torts shell with a soft tooth brush every morning soak.So I'm kind of stripping the old coat off and putting a fresh one as not to create a layer buildup.It's also the amount applied I might add.It doesn't take much to get the job done.I use a qtip to put it on.it does a great his getting in all the fine detail of the carrapace.I wipe off the access Vitashell if any,I usually don't .Then I use a clean qtip to do a last touch up.I finally got the shell back to an excellent healthy glow,She was in poor shape when I got her.I'm laying off the applications it fixed the problem.It says it lasts a week.I want to see the longevity of the product.


----------



## evlinLoutries

So, what's the conclusion Tom?

I just read from the first page, and still makes me a 'lil bit confused..

And, do u ever been applied another oil to ur torts? Such as olive oil or virgin coconut oil maybe?


----------



## Tom

evlinLoutries said:


> So, what's the conclusion Tom?
> 
> I just read from the first page, and still makes me a 'lil bit confused..
> 
> And, do u ever been applied another oil to ur torts? Such as olive oil or virgin coconut oil maybe?



We won't have a conclusion for years. I would want to see how they turn out as adults. I would say that after a few months we should have a pretty good idea, though. So far they are growing steadily and smoothly. All appears good.

I have never put anything other than plain water on a tortoises shell prior to this, and even that, I've only been doing for a year or so.

Tell me what you are confused about... I'm happy to try to clarify any of the details.


----------



## evlinLoutries

Tom said:


> evlinLoutries said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, what's the conclusion Tom?
> 
> I just read from the first page, and still makes me a 'lil bit confused..
> 
> And, do u ever been applied another oil to ur torts? Such as olive oil or virgin coconut oil maybe?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We won't have a conclusion for years. I would want to see how they turn out as adults. I would say that after a few months we should have a pretty good idea, though. So far they are growing steadily and smoothly. All appears good.
> 
> I have never put anything other than plain water on a tortoises shell prior to this, and even that, I've only been doing for a year or so.
> 
> Tell me what you are confused about... I'm happy to try to clarify any of the details.
Click to expand...


so here's the thing, I never use any kind of oil before, and after read some article they say using vita shell will make torts shell grow smoothly..

And in other way, some torts seller tell me to use VCO (virgin coconut oil) because its cheaper then vitashell..

That's the thing, 

PS : without using that kind of thing, I have no prob growing my torts, and having no pyramid prob..

Thanks Tom..

Devin,,


----------



## Tom

evlinLoutries said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> evlinLoutries said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, what's the conclusion Tom?
> 
> I just read from the first page, and still makes me a 'lil bit confused..
> 
> And, do u ever been applied another oil to ur torts? Such as olive oil or virgin coconut oil maybe?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We won't have a conclusion for years. I would want to see how they turn out as adults. I would say that after a few months we should have a pretty good idea, though. So far they are growing steadily and smoothly. All appears good.
> 
> I have never put anything other than plain water on a tortoises shell prior to this, and even that, I've only been doing for a year or so.
> 
> Tell me what you are confused about... I'm happy to try to clarify any of the details.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> so here's the thing, I never use any kind of oil before, and after read some article they say using vita shell will make torts shell grow smoothly..
> 
> And in other way, some torts seller tell me to use VCO (virgin coconut oil) because its cheaper then vitashell..
> 
> That's the thing,
> 
> PS : without using that kind of thing, I have no prob growing my torts, and having no pyramid prob..
> 
> Thanks Tom..
> 
> Devin,,
Click to expand...


I understand what you are saying. You are right, they CAN be raised smoothly with out any "stuff" on their shells. I did it last year. Richard Fife has been doing it for several years, and many forum members have had great success at it too. I don't want to leave anyone out, but Neal, KBaker, Christy P., Vinnie, Livingstone, tczar and MANY OTHERS have some really smooth leopards and sulcatas now. Its quite a feat to pull off here in the US. Our climates here require that we make a lot of adjustments and compensations every year. Some people have frozen winters and all that heating dries out the air. Other's like me, live in desert areas, and its dry ALL the time. Still others live in cold, clammy, rainy areas and they have their own set of problems to deal with. Figuring out pyramiding, and eliminating it, is one thing that many of us on the forum are trying to accomplish. We all want to know the best way to raise our animals. We all want to give them the best possible care. Well for two decades or so, most of the "experts" have failed us. Most of the books that have been written just promote the same wrong information. We have now taken matters into our own hands and most of us are having great success. If anyone is not having great success, they aren't talking about it much.

This experiment is really just to see what the product does in a "conventional" set up with some hatchling tortoises. I've never used ANY product on a tortoises shell prior to this, so I can't comment on coconut oil or any other type.


----------



## evlinLoutries

Tom said:


> evlinLoutries said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> evlinLoutries said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, what's the conclusion Tom?
> 
> I just read from the first page, and still makes me a 'lil bit confused..
> 
> And, do u ever been applied another oil to ur torts? Such as olive oil or virgin coconut oil maybe?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We won't have a conclusion for years. I would want to see how they turn out as adults. I would say that after a few months we should have a pretty good idea, though. So far they are growing steadily and smoothly. All appears good.
> 
> I have never put anything other than plain water on a tortoises shell prior to this, and even that, I've only been doing for a year or so.
> 
> Tell me what you are confused about... I'm happy to try to clarify any of the details.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> so here's the thing, I never use any kind of oil before, and after read some article they say using vita shell will make torts shell grow smoothly..
> 
> And in other way, some torts seller tell me to use VCO (virgin coconut oil) because its cheaper then vitashell..
> 
> That's the thing,
> 
> PS : without using that kind of thing, I have no prob growing my torts, and having no pyramid prob..
> 
> Thanks Tom..
> 
> Devin,,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I understand what you are saying. You are right, they CAN be raised smoothly with out any "stuff" on their shells. I did it last year. Richard Fife has been doing it for several years, and many forum members have had great success at it too. I don't want to leave anyone out, but Neal, KBaker, Christy P., Vinnie, Livingstone, tczar and MANY OTHERS have some really smooth leopards and sulcatas now. Its quite a feat to pull off here in the US. Our climates here require that we make a lot of adjustments and compensations every year. Some people have frozen winters and all that heating dries out the air. Other's like me, live in desert areas, and its dry ALL the time. Still others live in cold, clammy, rainy areas and they have their own set of problems to deal with. Figuring out pyramiding, and eliminating it, is one thing that many of us on the forum are trying to accomplish. We all want to know the best way to raise our animals. We all want to give them the best possible care. Well for two decades or so, most of the "experts" have failed us. Most of the books that have been written just promote the same wrong information. We have now taken matters into our own hands and most of us are having great success. If anyone is not having great success, they aren't talking about it much.
> 
> This experiment is really just to see what the product does in a "conventional" set up with some hatchling tortoises. I've never used ANY product on a tortoises shell prior to this, so I can't comment on coconut oil or any other type.
Click to expand...


Hmm, I think I should find out by myself,

But, how do u apllied vitashell to torts shell? Using hands, using a toothbrush or what? And how much?

Maybe, I'm going to do some experiment too, one for vco, and one for vitashell..


----------



## Yvonne G

If it were me, since the shell part is static, I would use a Q-tip and only apply it to the growth lines.


----------



## froghaven5

Hmmmm.... interesting. I've notice OP seems to get dried out pretty quickly and soaking/spraying doesn't seem to last long. I happen to have VCO, so I think I'll give this a try.


----------



## spikethebest

awesome experiment. wish i could be there to watch the magic unfold before my very eyes!


----------



## Tom

evlinLoutries said:


> Hmm, I think I should find out by myself,
> 
> But, how do u apllied vitashell to torts shell? Using hands, using a toothbrush or what? And how much?
> 
> Maybe, I'm going to do some experiment too, one for vco, and one for vitashell..



I rub it on with my finger after I sun, soak, and give them time to dry.

I would love it if you'd do this yourself. Please post the details and then let us know how it goes.


----------



## Kristina

emysemys said:


> If it were me, since the shell part is static, I would use a Q-tip and only apply it to the growth lines.



I don't think it is in younger babies. I have noticed that when my little Redfoot gets too dry, the centers of his scutes sink in. Tyler Stewart mentioned once before that the same thing happens with his baby Yellowfoots.


----------



## evlinLoutries

Tom said:


> evlinLoutries said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, I think I should find out by myself,
> 
> But, how do u apllied vitashell to torts shell? Using hands, using a toothbrush or what? And how much?
> 
> Maybe, I'm going to do some experiment too, one for vco, and one for vitashell..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I rub it on with my finger after I sun, soak, and give them time to dry.
> 
> I would love it if you'd do this yourself. Please post the details and then let us know how it goes.
Click to expand...


And how often u give it?

Ok then, I do these thing with VCO, and u use vitashell..

And we'll compare it later?

I will always updated on your thread..


----------



## Tom

Sounds great! I'm following the directions on the package and applying it once a week. Every Sunday. I'm planning on continuing this one until around December. I think by then we will have seen what we need to see.


----------



## evlinLoutries

Tom said:


> Sounds great! I'm following the directions on the package and applying it once a week. Every Sunday. I'm planning on continuing this one until around December. I think by then we will have seen what we need to see.



ok, I'm going to give them once a week too..
same day, sunday..

anyway, by using those kind of thing, do their body collect dust or any kind of dirt?
and what about shell breathing? can the shell still get an oxygen supply?


----------



## Tom

evlinLoutries said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds great! I'm following the directions on the package and applying it once a week. Every Sunday. I'm planning on continuing this one until around December. I think by then we will have seen what we need to see.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ok, I'm going to give them once a week too..
> same day, sunday..
> 
> anyway, by using those kind of thing, do their body collect dust or any kind of dirt?
> and what about shell breathing? can the shell still get an oxygen supply?
Click to expand...


Mine don't collect any dirt with the VitaShell. I put them outside everyday in a dirt pen and they come in clean. The VitaShell absorbs into their shell within an hour or so and then its not sticky. I surprised at how much I actually like it. The shell breathing and oxygen thing is a matter of debate and controversy. I do not know the answers to those questions, but my tortoises are doing great and they've had product on them for several weeks now.

I just want to reiterate, I'm NOT recommending that every one go out and put goop on their tortoises. I just wanted to try out this tortoise oriented product and share the results. I'm hoping it will help solve a dryness issue that we have here in the desert.


----------



## evlinLoutries

Tom said:


> evlinLoutries said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds great! I'm following the directions on the package and applying it once a week. Every Sunday. I'm planning on continuing this one until around December. I think by then we will have seen what we need to see.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ok, I'm going to give them once a week too..
> same day, sunday..
> 
> anyway, by using those kind of thing, do their body collect dust or any kind of dirt?
> and what about shell breathing? can the shell still get an oxygen supply?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Mine don't collect any dirt with the VitaShell. I put them outside everyday in a dirt pen and they come in clean. The VitaShell absorbs into their shell within an hour or so and then its not sticky. I surprised at how much I actually like it. The shell breathing and oxygen thing is a matter of debate and controversy. I do not know the answers to those questions, but my tortoises are doing great and they've had product on them for several weeks now.
> 
> I just want to reiterate, I'm NOT recommending that every one go out and put goop on their tortoises. I just wanted to try out this tortoise oriented product and share the results. I'm hoping it will help solve a dryness issue that we have here in the desert.
Click to expand...


Ok, I'll try with mine a couple of days from now..
I want to see they will collect dirt or not..

Just wait for my report soon..


----------



## Tom

Here's an update on mine. All are growing well. Weights are good at 56, 61, and 68 grams. All three are growing smooth, so there is no discernible difference with the two VitaShell torts and the one non VS tort, yet. Last year they were perfect until right around 3 months. That is when I first noticed slight imperfections. So I will be scrutinizing them for differences around that point.


----------



## Cameron

they look great man. very interesting thread.


----------



## Tom

Cameron said:


> they look great man. very interesting thread.



Thanks Cameron.


----------



## evlinLoutries

here's some  pict of mine..
















their shell already used VCO, and I like it colors..

we'll see that VCO give a good sign or not..


----------



## Tom

They look great. I'll be very curious to see how this goes for you. Good luck!


----------



## Neal

evlin, very nice leopards. 

Tom, before each weekly application do you notice any still on the tortoises shell from the previous week? 

Reason I ask, is when I started looking into this, all the negative information about the product indicated that it would keep building up on the tortoises shell. I've been using it on my two since January and I have never been able to scrape or brush any off at the end of the week, I assume it is either getting absorbed or brushed off as the tortoises rub up against objects in their enclosure. So I can't see why they say it builds up on the tortoises shell, but maybe my two are just different.


----------



## evlinLoutries

Tom said:


> They look great. I'll be very curious to see how this goes for you. Good luck!



Yeah, so far I like it..
But I have to look for a month to see how VCO effects on my torts..



Neal said:


> evlin, very nice leopards.
> 
> Tom, before each weekly application do you notice any still on the tortoises shell from the previous week?
> 
> Reason I ask, is when I started looking into this, all the negative information about the product indicated that it would keep building up on the tortoises shell. I've been using it on my two since January and I have never been able to scrape or brush any off at the end of the week, I assume it is either getting absorbed or brushed off as the tortoises rub up against objects in their enclosure. So I can't see why they say it builds up on the tortoises shell, but maybe my two are just different.



Thanks neal..


----------



## Yvonne G

I would like to caution those of you who want to use types of oil on baby shells. If you live in an area where there are red ants, the ants are attracted to the oil. So be vigilant.


----------



## evlinLoutries

emysemys said:


> I would like to caution those of you who want to use types of oil on baby shells. If you live in an area where there are red ants, the ants are attracted to the oil. So be vigilant.



I kept them indoor for night, and outdoor till noon..

Really? But the oil, VCO is not sweet..


----------



## Yvonne G

My baby leopards were inside a shed up on a shelf (tort table). I was painting olive oil on the growth lines. One day I went out there to find them covered with red ants. Olive oil isn't sweet either.


----------



## Neal

I'm not sure what type of ants we have in my backyard (carpenter maybe?) little black ones, but they seem to like the tortoises with vitashell.


----------



## Fernando

Neal said:


> I'm not sure what type of ants we have in my backyard (carpenter maybe?) little black ones, but they seem to like the tortoises with vitashell.



haha! That's so funny because I just noticed the ants walking around my sulcata, almost as if they are sniffing him. He doesn't seem to mind. I've washed off the last application so now they don't seem to care for him.


----------



## evlinLoutries

emysemys said:


> My baby leopards were inside a shed up on a shelf (tort table). I was painting olive oil on the growth lines. One day I went out there to find them covered with red ants. Olive oil isn't sweet either.



I just want to ask about olive oil, but u already say it..

The ants bite your torts or not?

And now your not applying the olive oil again to your torts?



Neal said:


> I'm not sure what type of ants we have in my backyard (carpenter maybe?) little black ones, but they seem to like the tortoises with vitashell.



Really?? Vitashell did attract the ants too?


----------



## Tom

Neal said:


> evlin, very nice leopards.
> 
> Tom, before each weekly application do you notice any still on the tortoises shell from the previous week?
> 
> Reason I ask, is when I started looking into this, all the negative information about the product indicated that it would keep building up on the tortoises shell. I've been using it on my two since January and I have never been able to scrape or brush any off at the end of the week, I assume it is either getting absorbed or brushed off as the tortoises rub up against objects in their enclosure. So I can't see why they say it builds up on the tortoises shell, but maybe my two are just different.



No sign of any build up, but their color does look a little more vibrant or richer than my other ones.


----------



## dmmj

Just FYI sorry for going OT but not all ants are attracted to sweets, there are some that also go for greasy type of things.


----------



## sunshade

I used it for mine just for two weeks (once a week), and it did bring out the pattern / color. I think it works - at least for my turtle.


----------



## evlinLoutries

Tom said:


> Neal said:
> 
> 
> 
> evlin, very nice leopards.
> 
> Tom, before each weekly application do you notice any still on the tortoises shell from the previous week?
> 
> Reason I ask, is when I started looking into this, all the negative information about the product indicated that it would keep building up on the tortoises shell. I've been using it on my two since January and I have never been able to scrape or brush any off at the end of the week, I assume it is either getting absorbed or brushed off as the tortoises rub up against objects in their enclosure. So I can't see why they say it builds up on the tortoises shell, but maybe my two are just different.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No sign of any build up, but their color does look a little more vibrant or richer than my other ones.
Click to expand...


yeah, their color just like strengthen up..



dmmj said:


> Just FYI sorry for going OT but not all ants are attracted to sweets, there are some that also go for greasy type of things.



thanks for your info..



sunshade said:


> I used it for mine just for two weeks (once a week), and it did bring out the pattern / color. I think it works - at least for my turtle.



use vitashell or others?


----------



## evlinLoutries

It's true that VCO attracts red ants..

But, when they get outdoor times, there's no red ants arround them, just now, I saw 7 (maybe more) red ants in their tort table..

So I take the ants and kill it, 

I'm still looking how the ants can come to their place..


----------



## sunshade

Evlin, 
Yes, I used the Vita Shell, the same one in the picture in the Tom's original posting. My gulf coast box turtle's shell used to be very dry, and the color had faded out almost, but, now both color and pattern are coming back. I used it just for two weeks, and like others, the cream would stay on the shell for a few days but not too visible. I could see some part of the shell collecting dirt a bit, but the cream was usually absorbed well then. 

I started feeding him lots of vegetables when I first applied the cream on him, and I think it might helped, too. .


----------



## wrmitchell22

I am considering trying this, I also live in AZ and worry about the desert drying out my Sulcatas shell and skin. I have a lot of trouble keeping the humidity up here in the desert. However, monsoon season is here so that may help for a couple months at least


----------



## Neal

evlinLoutries said:


> Really?? Vitashell did attract the ants too?



It did, but not a whole lot though. They weren't all over the tortoises like they would be all over a peice of food left out or something. It was more like 3 or 4 ants were on the tortoises with vita shell and none on the others. It's still enough to make me cautious though.


----------



## evlinLoutries

sunshade said:


> Evlin,
> Yes, I used the Vita Shell, the same one in the picture in the Tom's original posting. My gulf coast box turtle's shell used to be very dry, and the color had faded out almost, but, now both color and pattern are coming back. I used it just for two weeks, and like others, the cream would stay on the shell for a few days but not too visible. I could see some part of the shell collecting dirt a bit, but the cream was usually absorbed well then.
> 
> I started feeding him lots of vegetables when I first applied the cream on him, and I think it might helped, too. .



Nice..
But why u stop to use it?



Neal said:


> evlinLoutries said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really?? Vitashell did attract the ants too?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It did, but not a whole lot though. They weren't all over the tortoises like they would be all over a peice of food left out or something. It was more like 3 or 4 ants were on the tortoises with vita shell and none on the others. It's still enough to make me cautious though.
Click to expand...


Mines did the same too, there are just 4-6 red ants, but just in their tort table, not on the torts..


----------



## sunshade

Evlin,
The condition of his shell improved a lot in two weeks - no need to use it any more.  I will use it again if it gets drier again.


----------



## evlinLoutries

sunshade said:


> Evlin,
> The condition of his shell improved a lot in two weeks - no need to use it any more.  I will use it again if it gets drier again.



Ouwh, I see..
Do u have the pict before And after use vitashell?


----------



## Tom

Update: All is well. They are growing similarly to last years EOP babies. They are housed in the exact same tank as last years babies too. Same substrate, same water bowl, same everything. Their weights are 100, 110 and 123 grams. Its still too early to call it done, but the VitaShell APPEARS to be making no difference. It does look nice and it does not cause any problem. I intend to continue this one for a few more months.


----------



## dmmj

Tom shame on you for letting them drink Dr. Pepper.


----------



## Redstrike

Thanks for this Tom, very useful money saver! Hopefully future results will continue to show the same!?


----------



## Tom

It occurred to me that I didn't put captions identifying which tortoise is which.

The top photo is the biggest one. He gets VitaShell once a week and no shell spraying.
The second photo is the smallest one. He gets VitaShell and several shell sprays a day.
The third photo gets no Vitashell, but several shell sprays a day. He's pretty easy to see in the group photos.

I have to admit, that the VitaShell does make them look pretty nice, if appearance matters to anyone.


----------



## TurtleTortoise

Stupid question:

I don't know how or why, but would it affect their shells and the uv/UVB? Would it make it so less of it is absorbed? I don't know anything about UVB so it could not affect anything
-


----------



## Tom

I don't know the answer either. From what I have gathered and been told, tortoises primarily convert D2 to D3 in their skin. So something on their shell should be irrelevant. These guys are out in the sun nearly every day and their shells are as hard as any tortoise I've ever raised, so it does not appear to interfere with UV absorption in any way.


----------



## Madkins007

Even if the Vitashell was on the limbs, I would not expect a change in UVB absorption- the stuff is just a hand/body lotion formula, and wearing lotion on your skin does not affect your UVB absoption.


----------



## Lilithlee

I've been watching/reading this forum, been keeping up with it. Have a question. This came from the fact I was feeding my Dad bird today and puts palm oil in there food. And I was wondering what about Palm oil on there shells? How this isn't a silly question. I'm just curious. Would this be good/bad/ no effect.


----------



## Tom

I don't know. Never tried that, or heard of anyone else trying that. The VitaShell is made specifically for chelonian shells. So far, it does not seem to be making any difference. They are growing at about the same rate of smoothness as the three babies that I raised in this exact same enclosure with the exact same techniques as last year. The only difference between last years babies and this years babies is the application of Vitashell on two of the three.


----------



## Lilithlee

It's for birds to eat, but here a little bit about it. Premium palm oil is a certified organic red oil obtained by cold pressing the fruit of the dende palm. It provides a number of essential fatty acids including omega 3 and omega 6. Palm oil is familiar to birds in the wild as many use palm fruit as a large part of their diet. Macaws and Cockatoos as well as African Greys particularly benefit from eating palm oil. Palm oil helps put sheen into dull feathers and improves dry flaky skin and feet.


----------



## Tom

I've ended this experiment. It all went well. I had these guys in the same enclosure as last years EOP babies and they grew at almost exactly the same rate. The VitaShell made no discernible difference. In fact, the smoothest one was the one with no VitaShell. I'm a bit surprised by this as I expected it to have more of an effect. Still they were all nearly identical in smoothness to last years babies that were in this exact same set-up. With all of the enclosures and all of the babies I've been raising, I am seeing that the enclosure and its "micro-climate" has a lot to do with how the babies grow. These three are off to their new homes with a great start in life.


----------



## Yvonne G

Well, I'm sorry Tom...but this is the second thread I've read where you've said the experiment is done. You can't just say that and give your summation of the experiment without showing us pictures of the tortoises. Its not done until the fat lady sings.


----------



## Tom

The last pics are at post #93 above. Those pics are just over a week old. They still look just like that. 

Is that enough singin' for ya'?


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## DeanS

I was at Tom's last week...and I concur. There's no 'thinking about it'...the hatchling that didn't have VitaShell was perfect...the other two not so much!


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## l0velesly

The third one in the pic looks the smoothest, I think. I can't tell which is which in the group pictures, except that one has a lighter color.

So Dean, are you saying the Vitashell made the shell a little worse?


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## evlinLoutries

How it goes Tom?

Cause VCO didn't give any differences with the one who not use it..

But on my cherry head, it is affect their bright color, especially in their head..


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## Tom

It did make them look a little nicer. Not so dry...

But performance-wise, I got nothing.


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## FADE2BLACK_1973

This thread was very interesting. I was going to buy a tub of Vitashell and start applying it on Spikes dry looking shell and skin. I soak him once every other day and still dry. From what I take it as, pretty much a lotion so I guess it would not hurt and that it does not block any UVB or UVA. From what I seen from your experiment with baby sulcata's. I wonder it would work better on older juvi or older adults with dried out shell and skin? Btw, I use to Spray Four Paws Vita Spray on my Iguanas many many years ago to see what it would do for their skin and shedding problems. Well believe it or not after I started spraying them daily, it really brought out their colors and shedding improved. Might had been a lotion like spray, can't remember.


I was amazed at another member's adult sulcata's shell. So I asked him what was his secret? One of the things he told me, he applied VitaShell to his sulcata's shell every once in awhile. Good enough for me. So I guess I will finally go ahead and try some Vitashell once aweek and see for myself.


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## evlinLoutries

Tom said:


> It did make them look a little nicer. Not so dry...
> 
> But performance-wise, I got nothing.



same as what I got, only appearances that gets nicer..


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## Sammy

My tor's shell is so dry looking, I spray her lots + humidity. Brought a tub of this, will apply once a week after her soak & apply on damp shell, hope it helps to seal a bit of moisture in. maybe like our face cream I guess. Let me try.


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## pam

I im very interested in your results


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## yagyujubei

I use this occasionally on my big female leopard. Her shell is worn and faded in places. In my opinion, it did improve the look of the shell. dirt didn't seem to adhere to the shell as much after, and would wash off easier. Even if it's only cosmetic,I really don't have a problem with that. I haven't seen any reason to discontinue. I think an older tortoise might benefit more than a hatchling.


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## LParkey

As always, and interesting thread Tom. I've used VitaShell on my Sully for over a year, and I can honestly say her shell looks amazing. I'm curious as to the long-term effects tho?


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## jojodesca

Awesome!!! I had just asked about this..I have the same stuff, but have not used it yet...I wanted to try it but was a bit Leary since i don't want to harm my baby!!!..i will be very interested to know how it works!

Thank you

Jojo


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## LParkey

The newest addition to our family, Chomper, is approx 2 years old and lived in a dry enclosure his whole life, until us! His shell was SO dry! I've used VitaShell on him twice now and can see a drastic change in the beauty of his shell! While I don't believe it helps with pyramiding, I do believe its a great conditioner for a shinier more vibrant looking shell!


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## Zamric

My only endorsment to this product is that WalkingRock was brought up on this product. For his 1st 5 years he got it weekly but now he gets it only during growth cycles. As soon as his cuticles turn white he gets a coat on only his cuticles (his shell is WAY TOO BIG for a total coat everytime!) It should be noted that WalkingRock was raise with no knowledge about humididy or tempeture controled enviroment.... just in a classroom full of kids! 

The Outcome speaks for itself 11 years later


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