# Aestivation: 35 yr old Sully taking his sweet-a** time.



## luvsdaheat (Oct 8, 2014)

For anyone who's had their big Sulcatas aestivate:

Oscar has been with us for nearly 10 years - he's 35-ish and 120lbs. He has lived 100% in his burrow for over 6 years. We live in Palm Springs, CA. This summer was especially hot and muggy, but not record-breaking by any means.

This is the first year he (or any of our African-American torts) have *estivated* (I'm American, dammit), which he began in early August, and finally emerged from his burrow last week. He still seems pretty torpid - though he'll move from sun to shade when necessary. 

His breathing is fine, no discharge, his eyes aren't sunken, he doesn't look dehydrated, and his front and back legs are out and in a "relaxed" pose.
He seems to be napping at times, with his head out, and awake at times...
So far he has yet to eat or drink.

I really don't expect him to jump right into gorging like a hungry bear, what I'd appreciate is hearing from members' who've gone through the summer sleep-athon with their torts, and what kind of timetable I ought to expect regarding Oscar's thirst and appetite.

Much Obliged,

Brad Wolff


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## wellington (Oct 8, 2014)

@Tom, @Yvonne G @tortadise interesting, I don't think I,have ever heard anyone on here talk about this before. We have many Sullies and leopards living in the hot deserts of Arizona and Nevada, besides different places in the dryer parts of Cali and I have never heard of them mention this. Can't wait to see what is said.


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## tortadise (Oct 8, 2014)

Yep every summer my big guys are worthless during the day. Very early AM and just as the sun is sheltered by the trees in the afternoon is the only time they will come out. Sometimes I think the female who hangs out under an old bois d' arc tree is dead because she's so inactive and sleeping. It's typical once temperatures exceed a certain degree. Usually It's around mid 90s and full sun when this occurs. Does he have additional places to seek shelter or just the burrow? If you offer multiple locations for them to escape the heat and direct sun, they will choose as to there liking.


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## luvsdaheat (Oct 8, 2014)

Kelly,

Yes, he has loads of places to choose for shade, aside from his very cool burrow.
And I agree about them being summer slugs - we interact with them less in summer than Fall and Winter. Sometimes Luna won't show her face for a day or two after July. It's only been the past week that she's staying out for the whole day (in the shade, but not retreating into her burrow).

So, the idea of Oscar's total retreat for 8 weeks is not routinely seen? This post is new, so I'm refraining from freaking out just yet


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## tortadise (Oct 8, 2014)

luvsdaheat said:


> Kelly,
> 
> Yes, he has loads of places to choose for shade, aside from his very cool burrow.
> And I agree about them being summer slugs - we interact with them less in summer than Fall and Winter. Sometimes Luna won't show her face for a day or two after July. It's only been the past week that she's staying out for the whole day (in the shade, but not retreating into her burrow).
> ...


8 weeks is a bit long. Are you certain you didn't miss him being out very early in the morning? I will sometimes see mine out just before sunrise in the summer like when the sun is barely casting light on the horizon,


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## Yvonne G (Oct 8, 2014)

The only tortoises of mine that have ever estivated are the Russians. It gets upwards of 95F here daily in the summer and sometimes all the way up to 110F. When it is constantly over 95F the Russians disappear underground and I don't see them again until it cools down below 95F.

I water the grass in their yard (sprinklers) weekly, so the ground is fairly moist for them, and there is a big waterer in there that they can climb into if they so desire.

Does your big sulcata have a nice big mud hole or a big waterer that his whole body fits into? They love a mud wallow, and they'll throw mud up over their backs if you allow them to have it.


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## luvsdaheat (Oct 8, 2014)

@Kelly: We wondered that at first, too. But the absence of tracks, some undisturbed cobwebs by the entrance, and the fact that Mrs. Luvsdaheat and I are early risers made it certain Oscar wasn't sneaking out the way we catch Luna doing in the summer. It seems a bit long, but on a plus note he just moved from full sun into full shade rather quickly - at least he isn't dragging himself around. As I'm writing, we turned on the Gilmour sprinkler and Oscar has moved so he gets the H2O, and is in the sun.

@Yvonne G.: How long until your summers cool down below 95F? RE: water and moisture - we don't do mud wallows, but they're in a 100' x 100' backyard that gets watered 3x/day in summer. His burrow is cool and not damp, but not dry - I've shimmied down into it as far as I can go - which was less than halfway! Also, if you look at my Avatar pic, we run that Gilmour sprinkler daily - they  it! (they've killed two of them, and Gilmour has sent us FREE replacements each time; great company.)


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## Yvonne G (Oct 8, 2014)

We get +95 from May until end of October. Yesterday was 97F.


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## luvsdaheat (Oct 8, 2014)

Yvonne G said:


> We get +95 from May until end of October. Yesterday was 97F.


 so your Russian "doesn't come out" at all for 5 months?!


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## G-stars (Oct 8, 2014)

luvsdaheat said:


> so your Russian "doesn't come out" at all for 5 months?!



I think she meant that they do come out when it's cooler. Like in the mornings and afternoons. 


— Gus


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## Tom (Oct 8, 2014)

I've been keeping sulcatas continually since 1991. Over the years there have been literally 100's of them if you count the hatchlings. I'm down to only 9 at the moment, with several farmed out. Mine have a burrow for summer too. Not once in all that time have mine ever gone underground and stayed underground without coming up for food in the morning or afternoon. Here is my burrow: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sulcata-burrows.50846/

I think you have a problem. It is probably from leaving him in that burrow over our "cold" winters. I'm not too far from you and I have family in Yucca Valley. Our climates are not that far off, although you are generally a little warmer than me year round. Where sulcatas come from there is no "cooler" season. My friend from Senegal tells me there are but two season over there: "Hot and hotter." If your tortoise is underground on our cold winter nights, it is MUCH too cold for him. Some of them are able to survive this way. Same thing in Phoenix. But it is still too cold, and unnaturally cold for what this tropical species has evolved to deal with for millions of years. Even though some can survive this way, it is not "good" for them.

Tortoises don't always get sick all of a sudden. It takes time. I think your tortoise is suffering from years of night temps that are too cold.

My tortoises use the burrow all summer long, but right around this time of year, I catch them all topside and block off the burrow entrance with plywood. Then they sleep in their heated above ground boxes, like these:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-best-night-box-design-yet.66867/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/

Another contributing factor could be that you are mixing and matching them. Do your leopards live separately with no contact? Did you quarantine the new guy when he came? You say the male "dotes" on the female, but tortoises don't "dote". They fight, they intimidate, they rape, and they generally prefer to live alone, although groups can work sometimes. Pairs are worst case scenario. Its stressful on the male too.

Try keeping him in a heated shelter at night and see if things improve. It is also VERY dry out there. Do you ever soak him? It might help if you started soaking him 2 or 3 times a week for a while.

Lastly, How do you know his age? The very first ones were bred in 1979, but those were not available to the public. They really didn't get into public hands until the late 80s and it was still relatively small numbers of them even into the early 90's. So a 35 year old is possible, but pretty unlikely.


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## motero (Oct 8, 2014)

I second the soaking, get a cement mixing tub and some help to put him in there. A good soak works wonders even on the biggest torts.


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## luvsdaheat (Oct 8, 2014)

@Tom: We appreciate the time you took to compose such a lengthy response, thank you.

I wrote my post after consulting with a vet who's the alternate vet for The Living Desert zoo who, after listening to all of the patient's presenting symptoms, suggested aestivation and not to take him to the vet without a really good reason since that would be stressful as heck, on top of which he'd have to be knocked out just to get a blood sample from him.

The leopards and Sulcatas are totally separated 100% of the time.
Yucca Valley is waaay colder than the LOW desert - it snows up there every year.
We got the pair from a fellow near San Diego, who advised us they were low to mid-20's when we got them about 10 years ago. Neither have holes through the plastron (for ropes, as found on some imported ones), but we do not know their age for sure! 
In your experience, what is the typical age-range for a 120lb male? (non-pyramided)
They both abandoned a nice warm box for burrows - and come out every day in the winter - oh, sure, they'll nap in the breezeway now and again.
"Doting" may well be anthropomorphizing, but he does look after Luna the way male California Quails look after females and young. 
Between my wife and I we have 70-odd years of keeping all kinds of animals, and I'm a doctor who can _smell _stress on patients, and we state with 100% confidence that none of our animals show obvious signs of stress. Oscar isn't hunched up, or withdrawn into his shell, his eyes are bright and he responds to temp changes with the same pace he normally uses.

We're not worried that he's ill, we're asking for other keeper's experience with estivating tortoises.

Perhaps the best analog of Oscar's behavior is that it's just like a Desert Tortoise's hibernation - only occurring in summer vs. winter.
...many years ago we looked after a very large desert tortoise. She went into our laundry room and stayed there - torpid, etc. - for over four months. 
Once we learned about their behaviors, we didn't worry about her being ill...

Thank you everyone for your kind responses! PLEASE keep them coming, as knowledge not shared - is lost.

brad and Amy


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## luvsdaheat (Oct 8, 2014)

Yvonne G said:


> We get +95 from May until end of October. Yesterday was 97F.


Yvonne,

Can you clarify - does that mean your Russians don't come out at all during the hot months, or that they only come out in the cooler hours of the day?


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## Tom (Oct 8, 2014)

I am familiar with what aestivation is. I am telling you that none of mine, and none of any of the dozens that I know of with friends, family and acquaintances ever aestivate in hot weather here in the states. My friend Tomas tells me the wild ones don't aestivate during the hot dry season in Africa either. And I am very familiar with the Palm Springs climate. It gets too cold there at night for sulcatas, and the average temp underground is too cold for them during winter.

So again, I think you have a sick tortoise. And I don't recommend going to the vet either. I recommend putting the tortoise in the environment it needs to be in and not giving it the choice to choose poorly. Sulcatas do not have a mechanism to tell them they are too cold and they need to seek out warmth. Its never too cold in their parts of Africa, so they can just sleep in their burrows or park it under a bush for the night if need be. They _do _have a mechanism to tell them its too hot and they need to get under ground.

Check out this enclosure:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/daisys-new-enclosure.28662/

Lots of sulcatas have now lived in this enclosure. A total of 9 different ones. 5 juveniles live in their now. When I try to introduce them this this enclosure in cooler months, they simply refuse to put themselves away underground in the evenings. Every night for months on end I have to put them down the hatch after dark. Then every day they walk up, run around, eat, and then park in a corner or under a bush at nightfall. They simply do not understand that it is too cold to sleep over night above ground. Some grasp the concept sooner than others, but its not easy. By contrast as soon as hot weather hits with temps climbing past the low 90s, every single one of them dives into the underground burrow all by themselves. They know they need to go underground to avoid overheating above ground, but they don't know they need to get underground to avoid getting too cold in our North American climate.

Given the choice of their burrow or an artificial wooden box, I think most sulcatas will choose the burrow. The problem is that its too cold in a burrow during our winters here in North America. Even in the warmer southern states. Our climate is temperate. The climate they come from is not.

I used to let mine get colder over winter. It was a mistake and I now know better. I have the experience of keeping many sulcatas in a wide variety of ways, as well as observing dozens of them housed in a variety of ways at friends and family members places, as well as seeing dozens of cases from my veterinarian friends. I used to think it was fine too, and then I saw the difference in their health, vigor and appetite, when I started housing them better. I have had this discussion that I am having with you many times. A good friend of mine acquired a gorgeous five year old a couple of years ago. The lady said it lived in her horse barn and told him that he stops eating in winter, but he didn't need any heat. She said he's never had any heat in winter and he'd be fine. I told my friend the same thing I'm telling you. A few months after ignoring what I told him and winter had set in, he found his tortoise dead and had tears in his eyes as he told me the story.

Doesn't sound like I'm going to be able to convince you, but I wish you and your tortoise well. I never expect anyone to just change everything because some guy on the internet typed a few sentences, but I hope you'll consider what I've said, and consider the source. At least look into it a bit and try to verify for yourself what I've tried to explain here. Hopefully others reading will be convinced and keep their tropical tortoises warmer over winter.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 8, 2014)

My Russians are seldom seen during the summer months. Once in a great while I'll see one early morning and that's usually on a day that doesn't quite make it up to 95F. I don't know how they know when at the time it's only about 65F. They eat a lot in April and May, estivate in June-August, then eat a lot in September. They sun but don't eat in October.


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## bouaboua (Oct 8, 2014)

Again.....Learn a lot be reading this thread. Great info from everyone. Thanks.


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## luvsdaheat (Oct 8, 2014)

@Yvonnne: Thank you for clarifying about your Russians and the summer heat.

@Tom: I cannot thank you enough for (again) taking the time to compose a thoughtful and intelligent post and that's some deeluxe digs you built - you should be proud of that!

OK, so right now Oscar is maintaining his daytime temp without a problem. Overnight temps are in the 70's. We have zero to lose, and everything to gain by trundling the pair into their house once it gets chilly. We will follow your recommendation - I checked the average lows for Senegal and Mali - it rarely gets below 65F throughout the year. 
...just gonna hafta board up their burrow entrances for the winter like an old mine entrance!

thanks again, Tom!

brad


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## luvsdaheat (Oct 8, 2014)

@Tom: In your experience, how old is a typical 120lb Male?


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## ascott (Oct 8, 2014)

I find it fantastic when a natural burrower does just that....we can learn alot from simply watching their behavior....



> suggested aestivation and not to take him to the vet without a really good reason since that would be stressful as heck, on top of which he'd have to be knocked out just to get a blood sample from him.



Also fantastic.....


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## Tom (Oct 9, 2014)

luvsdaheat said:


> @Tom: In your experience, how old is a typical 120lb Male?



I've seen them hit that size in as little as 12 years. Growth rates vary wildly, and depend on many factors. I've also seen 5 pound 12 year olds. This makes any sort of "average" meaningless.


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## Tom (Oct 9, 2014)

luvsdaheat said:


> I checked the average lows for Senegal and Mali - it rarely gets below 65F throughout the year.



When considering the overnight lows in Mali, also consider then daytime highs the next day. While the night time temps may occasionally dip that low, every day is going to be in the 90s or higher. So while we have occasional cooler days in winter they don't. Basically, our summer temps simulate their year round temps. In that burrow enclosure, I unplug the heating elements over summer. That burrow stays within a few degrees of 80 all summer long with no heat. 60 degree nights, and 100 degree days, and just 3 feet down it stays 80 all the time. In winter with 65 degree days and 35 degree nights, that same burrow will hover around 50 with no heat. This is why I say its too cold underground for them over winter. Its great for animals that hibernate. Very stable. But too cold for a tropical animal that does not hibernate.


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## luvsdaheat (Oct 9, 2014)

Tom,
What you're saying makes sense for maintaining a tropical animal in a tropical environment.

I feel their burrows have a saving grace in that they lie directly under a 15'x25' concrete slab (old paddle-tennis court). It won't raise the temp to 80, but it's better than your average hole in the ground...

RE age: We understood that CB Sulcatas weren't widely available decades ago... All I can say is that the previous owner (an aerospace engineer) lived in Escondido, had the pair for 5 years, and said they were 22 and 24 when we got them....


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## Tom (Oct 9, 2014)

luvsdaheat said:


> Tom,
> I feel their burrows have a saving grace in that they lie directly under a 15'x25' concrete slab (old paddle-tennis court). It won't raise the temp to 80, but it's better than your average hole in the ground...



That is excellent for your roasting hot summers. Perfect for them really.

I'm curious about the temps down there. Throw a temperature probe down there and see what you've got. My tortoise's burrow is 22' long and I recorded a temp of 74 degrees about 18' deep on a 107 degree September day.

Then throw a temp probe down there in winter and see what you've got.


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## Prairie Mom (Oct 9, 2014)

This is one of the most interesting threads (with interesting links) I have read. Thanks so much to @luvsdaheat , @Tom , and everyone else who participated so far. We can learn so much from all of you! Wishing health and happiness to your tortoises, luvsdaheat!


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## luvsdaheat (Oct 9, 2014)

Tom said:


> That is excellent for your roasting hot summers. Perfect for them really.
> 
> I'm curious about the temps down there. Throw a temperature probe down there and see what you've got. My tortoise's burrow is 22' long and I recorded a temp of 74 degrees about 18' deep on a 107 degree September day.
> 
> Then throw a temp probe down there in winter and see what you've got.



I just got my remote temp sensor up and running


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## luvsdaheat (Oct 10, 2014)

UPDATE: My wife left the house at 3:30 for an appointment, and when we returned at 5:30 this afternoon Oscar had installed himself by the back door looking super alert, and wanting a handout. All last week he ignored the carrots, etc. we'd placed by him, but now he started eating the greens we put in front of him right away - finally! He's now munching, taking a break, munching, break, etc.... like a Desert Tortoise when coming out of hibernation.

I readily admit that the idea of estivating (aestivating) was an alien concept to me before this. Thank you Yvonne G. for sharing your Russian's summer habits! I also agree with Tom's idea's for a heated burrow - great design! - and his rationale for heating through the colder months makes sense.

When it's all said and done, until proven otherwise, it seems as though Oscar is coming out of an estivation cycle...something none of our African torts had previously done.

thank you everyone, for comments, etc. - Compared to husbanding the other Giants, Sulcatas (and the other "exotic" torts) in the USA is in its infancy. I do not believe there are very many "journals" we can read with experiences about Sulcatas going into their 30's and beyond to the point where empirical "truisms" can be drawn across the entire spectrum of caring for them....I have a lot to learn, and look forward to it

brad wolff


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## ascott (Oct 10, 2014)

> I do not believe there are very many "journals" we can read with experiences about Sulcatas going into their 30's and beyond to the point where empirical "truisms" can be drawn across the entire spectrum of caring for them..



Perfect, I am a firm believer in this as well....glad to hear all is working itself out...also, as a tort ages it behaviors can change as well....so enjoy...


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## DeanS (Oct 30, 2014)

luvsdaheat said:


> In your experience, how old is a typical 120lb Male?



Not Tom, but, as I've seen my share, I will tell you it's all about how they were raised. Locale may have something to do with it...but that's another topic altogether! Sudanese specimens can reach 250 pounds by the time they're 30...whereas Sengalese specimens break 200 pounds around the same time! I've seen 10 year olds hit 120#...and then I've seen 25-30 year olds barely 100#. Typically, 12 -15 years old is when you start seeing prime monsters!


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