# Sulcata - Black eyes and mouth



## NoSup4U (Apr 24, 2009)

Quick question: My sulcata is about 3 years old now and I feel like he has excessive black around his eyes and mouth. Any idea what causes this? His diet is pretty much exclusively grass and plants.

Thanks!
Mark


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## Yvonne G (Apr 24, 2009)

Off the top of my head I would say he's eating his poop. Can you shoot us a picture?

Yvonne


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## NoSup4U (Apr 24, 2009)

emysemys said:


> Off the top of my head I would say he's eating his poop. Can you shoot us a picture?
> 
> Yvonne



Yup I'll get one tomorrow. But yeah, I have seen him eating our dogs poop sometimes. 

Mark


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## tortoisenerd (Apr 25, 2009)

You should be very careful with the dog poop because of what is in it could harm the tort. Also, if the dog takes medications that isn't good either. His own poop is ok, but not dog poop.


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## Maggie Cummings (Apr 26, 2009)

He's eating his poop. If you pay attention you will see that he poops around the same time everyday...so then you need to stay on top of it and scoop the poop before he gets it...


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## sadie tortoise (Apr 27, 2009)

From the things i've read its OK for him to eat his own poop

I'm copying this from my Russian book:
"A russian tortoise is a hundgut fermentor, and many nutrients are wasted because of this. It is suspected that consuming its own feces, called coprophagy, is a means of reducing the waste of available nutrients. It is like running the food through the digestrive process a second time to absorb those nutrients made available when the material was broken down the first time around."


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## Maggie Cummings (Apr 27, 2009)

This isn't a Russian it's a Sulcata. But still...eating their OWN poop is not harmful but it's disgusting and if the animal is fed a proper diet and the right amount and is getting the proper exercise they won't eat their own poop. It's the keepers responsibility to clean the poop before the animal has a chance to eat it. I don't time it right with Bob sometimes and I simply hate seeing him with a giant sloppy turd hanging out his mouth.
If you have ever seen a large Sulcata with a turd the size of a potato hanging out of his mouth you will see why I say it's gross.


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## tortoisenerd (Apr 27, 2009)

Yes, to clarify it's ok for them to eat their own poop, but most tort parents don't like them to do this. Definitely keep all other animal poop away from the tort.


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## NoSup4U (Apr 28, 2009)

maggie3fan said:


> This isn't a Russian it's a Sulcata. But still...eating their OWN poop is not harmful but it's disgusting and if the animal is fed a proper diet and the right amount and is getting the proper exercise they won't eat their own poop. It's the keepers responsibility to clean the poop before the animal has a chance to eat it. I don't time it right with Bob sometimes and I simply hate seeing him with a giant sloppy turd hanging out his mouth.
> If you have ever seen a large Sulcata with a turd the size of a potato hanging out of his mouth you will see why I say it's gross.



Hi Maggie. Your tone here seems a little self righteous? My sulcata eats 100% natural grasses and plants. (other than poop apparently heh) The only thing outside of that she gets are an occasional lettuce leaf as a treat. Her shell seems perfectly formed and as far as I can tell she's in perfect health.

I'm not quite sure how to clean up her poop instantly. as my backyard is probably 1/3 of an acre and I don't monitor it minute by minute. If you have some suggestions that don't involve putting her inside an aquarium or following her around all day I'm open to them 

I hadn't seen my sulcata for a few days but she's out and about today so I'll get a pic. But for sure it sounds like she's eating poop. I'll see if I can figure something out for her.

Mark


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## Meg90 (Apr 28, 2009)

How can you not have seen her for a few days? Where does she sleep? Where do you live, that you don't have the threat of predators, that you can go without seeing her for a few days.....that is an alarming sentence to me.

And personally, I am sure that you are taking care of your tortoise as best as you know how. My advice would be, if you sense a tone here that upsets you, just leave it be. Commenting on it like that makes tempers flare, and words that shouldn't be typed, get posted.

How about some pictures of her enclosure, and of her? I think that would help explain what you mean, and how you care for your animal. If the stain isn't from the feces eating (and btw, dog poop in her enclosure is a REALLY bad idea---as are dogs in there at all) and you post a pic, someone could actually attempt to tell you what was wrong.

___________
Wait a minute, now that I read that again, it sounds like your sulcata is just loose in your backyard with your dogs?

My suggestion (if this is infact the case) is that you look in the enclosures section, and build her an outdoor pen. Someplace for her that is safe, able to be monitored, and keeps the dogs, and their feces well out of her reach.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 28, 2009)

I have a very large male sulcata. Every morning when I go outside to open up the tortoise houses to let them out, I take with me the scoop and the scooper. I walk every inch of Dudley's pasture back and forth, and pick up the poop. A third of an acre should take you about 5 minutes to walk, picking up poop as you go. I also pick up the dog poop daily. And I have to look for it, as they aren't considerate enough to put it in one place for me to find easily. Its just part of animal keeping 101.

It IS normal, and not harmful (unless they have parasites, then ingesting poop re-infests them) for a tortoise to eat his poop. However, in the wild I doubt you would see this very often, as they aren't contained in a small space. In my opinion, just because its not harmful, is no reason to not clean up after the animal.

I STRESS " MY OPINION", folks...we're all allowed to have them

Yvonne


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## Laura (Apr 28, 2009)

Grass stains will turn darker as they dry up as well. 
As for a day or two going by and not seeing them.. its life sometimes, not the best, but it happens to me too. mine are outside, thier schedule doesnt match mine some days. They go to bed before I get home, or its dark, and now thier pasture is SO overgrown, they are loving it! hard to imagine a 60# tort being hard to find in a 100x60 area.. but it hapens!


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## NoSup4U (Apr 28, 2009)

Meg90 said:


> How can you not have seen her for a few days? Where does she sleep? Where do you live, that you don't have the threat of predators, that you can go without seeing her for a few days.....that is an alarming sentence to me.
> 
> And personally, I am sure that you are taking care of your tortoise as best as you know how. My advice would be, if you sense a tone here that upsets you, just leave it be. Commenting on it like that makes tempers flare, and words that shouldn't be typed, get posted.



I live in AZ, and I have a completely enclosed backyard with grass and desert landscaping etc. We just moved in a few months ago and are in the process of redoing the backyard. The original plan was to build an area on one side of the yard for the torts but they've both basically dug themselves a home on the other side of the yard from where we set up their habitat and seem perfectly happy traversing around. We don't see any reason at the moment why they shouldn't be allowed to, as there isn't anything dangerous in the backyard other than cactus I guess?

I would be surprised if a lot of tort owners don't see their torts for a few days. Lets say that I wake up at 6am. Get ready for work. Leave my house by 7am before they're up and about. Get home by 6pm when they're already nestled in some nook or cranny they've decided to sleep in for the night. I mean, I would think that would be a pretty common scenario for a person to encounter right? Like, if someone told me they didn't see their tort for a few days, that's what I would think would be the reason.

That doesn't really apply to me though, as I work from home. I just happen to have a really big backyard with natural desert landscaping and tons of places for my little 4 inch long sulcata to hide. So sometimes even when I go looking everywhere for him, he's impossible to find. And then she shows up the next day and I'm always baffled as to where he could have been.

I do however want to address the issue if she's eating dog poop of course. Now that I know this is the problem, I'll segregate off an area for my dog to go in where the torts can't get to. (he (the dog) is pretty trainable as to where his bathroom area is.)

Thanks for the advice everyone, much appreciated.

Mark



emysemys said:


> I have a very large male sulcata. Every morning when I go outside to open up the tortoise houses to let them out, I take with me the scoop and the scooper. I walk every inch of Dudley's pasture back and forth, and pick up the poop. A third of an acre should take you about 5 minutes to walk, picking up poop as you go. I also pick up the dog poop daily.



*nod* totally understand. My problem is, my backyard is mostly natural desert and gravel, and my sulcata is small. So finding his poop is not like walking around looking for a medium sized dog poop. His poop is an inch long and even though its black it still blends in with the rocks and twigs and whatever else. I would probably be hard pressed to find any of his poop back there right now. But I would guess he's eating the dog poop, which is contained in one big area and only gets cleaned up once a week. So we'll have to figure out something to do about that.

And everyone is definitely entitled to their opinion. Everyone seems a little riled up (rightfully so since I'm unknown to everyone I guess) about my self righteous comment. Just to be clear, I didn't call anyone self righteous, I just asked if the tone of a post that claimed that my tort wouldn't eat his own poop if he was properly fed, and claimed I should be cleaning up his poop which is impossible in my yard, seemed in tone to be a little self righteous without knowledge of my or where my tort lives. 

Anyway, thank you again everyone for the help, I'll go clean up my dogs poop and have an area made for him that my torts can't get to.

Mark


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## aktech23 (Apr 28, 2009)

mine likes to go poop underneath things, inside shrubs and such, out of the way places where it sleeps.

I often don't see my 10" sulcata for a day or two depending on things. In the winter it was even more rare to see it as I was at work during the daylight hours. it eats grass and it's water dish is on the sprinkler drip.

NoSup4U, I'm in Tempe.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 28, 2009)

NoSup4U said:


> Anyway, thank you again everyone for the help, I'll go clean up my dogs poop and have an area made for him that my torts can't get to.
> 
> Mark



Hey Mark: Since your little guy is so small, I think Laura's post fits your bill more accurately. I doubt in such a large area of wandering he would be able to find his own tiny little poops. More than likely his face is stained from whatever kinds of weeds and grasses he's been into. But don't let that deter you from cleaning up that dog poop!! 

Yvonne


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## Maggie Cummings (Apr 28, 2009)

You want self righteous? I would NEVER allow a 4" baby the run of the yard nor to sleep in some "nook cranny or corner". I have numerous tortoises of several different species and different ages and they are put to bed to be kept safe every night and that includes my almost 100 pound Sulcata who takes himself off to bed to sleep in a sleeping box in a locked shed. Sometime between 8 and 8:30 I go around and make sure everyone is in bed and then I lock whatever door I need to lock. When I go around in the morning to open whatever door needs to be open I look for poop. Just before noon I look again for poop. That's how I was taught and I am a good keeper.
There's nothing self righteous about it, you wrote in and asked for an opinion from keepers more experienced then yourself and then insult my opinion because you disagreed with it. It is your responsibility as the keeper of whatever tortoise to take care of that animal in the best way possible. I would say you are not doing your job. Because a 4" tort who is too small to be on his own is left on his own. Because this same tort has access to dog poop which is horrible and because I would have to assume your dogs have access to that small tort and sooner or later the dog will use the tort as a chew toy. In the years I have been keeping tortoises I have seen that over and over and over. And please don't bother by saying your dog would never do that because that's what they all say. If you worm your dog with Ivermectin and your tort eats the dog poop he will die.
My tortoises eat their own poop, I never said they didn't. You asked for an opinion, I gave you one. I am sorry you didn't like it but you come on here brand new asking for an opinion you get one and all the sudden you got your chest all puffed out. I am not going to fight with you because I have seen your kind come and go on this forum. Next time don't ask if you don't want to hear.


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## bettinge (Apr 28, 2009)

Two comments:

First, Reading "a turd the size of a potato hanging out of his mouth" made me laugh to myself more than I have in a long time. Thank you Maggie!

Second, If someone told me a month ago I could not find my 3 inch tortoise in a 8'x4' enclosure, I would have laughed. Twice now in a week, I have spent about 20 minutes trying to find my tortoise. I do have a safe enclosure, so the thought of him disappearing did not even cross my mind. Wow can they hide, and the scrapes I've designed in are JUST starting to grow. I'm not sure if its going to be easier for me to find a bigger tortoise in a bigger enclosure!


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## Millerlite (Apr 28, 2009)

i use to keep my box turtles outside, and not see them for days, they would always hide and just be lost. I try though to check on all mine, but sometimes they are just tucked away to good. I can see both sides of the story, and i cant really say one is right and the other is wrong. People have there different ways of caring for there tortoises and turtles, and different routines. Also a lot of people cant spend every day in the mornign to walk the enclosure to pick up poop, i know for my self i have class in the morning then work at night, so some days it would be impossible (if i had a tortoise pooping that much).. we should also not attack others opinion, i think we need to step back and not argue so much (it looks bad on the forums "my opinion") lets try getting back on track with the thread, 

My sulcata has black around his mouth from eating, your could have it from eating the weeds in the yard... and maybe some poop, lol. How big is your enclosure?


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## Meg90 (Apr 28, 2009)

I think that is Maggie's point. That he doesn't have an enclosure.

When you said sulcata, and outside, I assumed it was a large tortoise. Something over 12" at the least. Then you tell us that it is just a baby, 4 inches long....that changes the outlook on everything.

Every night when I get home from work, I check for my hatchling. She is 2 1/2 inches, and lives in a roughly 14 in, by 28 in enclosure. It takes me several minutes to find her, and boy, can my heart just POUND. Even though I know there is really no way she could have escaped.

I do agree with Maggie that keeping a small tortoise in a 1/3 acre yard, along with Dogs is a horrible idea.

The difference here, with members saying that sometimes they don't see their torts is completely different from the situation at hand. Everyone here, has designed an enclosure. So even if they cannot see the animal, they know WHERE it is. (In its pen)

A rodent can chew through shell and bone, and it does not take long. A dog could to that in less. Not to mention that dogs are fed an omnivorous diet. And sulcatas should not have alot of protein, especially in the form of feces.

Turtle and tortoise poop is not harmful. We all admit to that. But would you let your tortoise eat other animal scat without doing trying to do something to prevent it? I doubt anyone here would say yes.

Also, predator animals could make quick work of such a small tort. Birds of prey, coyotes, etc. Do you at least have a sleeping area for her? It is just not SAFE to let her dig down somewhere. It is not responsible.


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## NoSup4U (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Maggie. If you reread my post, I was just saying your comments sounded like they might be a little self righteous. But I don't know you, so I wasn't sure. But I am now 

In your last post you start off by saying: I'll show you self righteous! And then you continue later saying: There's nothing self righteous about it! I think you have an identity crisis. 

In you first response to me you say (I'm cutting and pasting here for you): "if the animal is fed a proper diet and the right amount and is getting the proper exercise they won't eat their own poop." So I guess you feel that everyone here who has had a tort eat their own poop isn't feeding their tort correctly?

And you also say: "It's the keepers responsibility to clean the poop before the animal has a chance to eat it. " So I guess you think that everyone here who has a huge area for their tort to roam is a bad keeper as well?

Maggie, I'm more than happy to take any advice from anyone making any kind of reasonable response to a post of mine. I'm not a tort expert. But your post was worthless and said nothing of value. Maybe try and reflect on how you can post in a more positive way instead of getting your panties in a bunch because someone calls you out about it. (and yes, I know that flaming maggie is probably worthless also  )

Some questions for the rest of users here:
My tort is 3 years old, many of you seem to think this is too young to be roaming the yard. Why is it any different if he roams a 10X10 box or a 100X100 yard? Same stuff in there no? In the wild he'd be roaming on his own by now.

Meg: Why do you feel it isn't safe for her to dig her own hole to sleep in? Isn't that what they do in the wild? She has an enclosure I built for her but she doesn't use it, and prefers to burrow her own places to sleep even though I kept moving her back to her house over and over. 

Mark


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## Meg90 (Apr 29, 2009)

ok. One, watch your language. This is supposed to be a child friendly site. And being blatantly rude will not get you anywhere. We have had a lot of newbies exhibit similar behavior in the last few months. Its negative, and hurtful, and again, why can someone not be the bigger person?

This thread does not need to turn into a fight. If you did not agree with advice given, don't take it. But to attack another member on a personal level, is wrong, and against the code here.

And secondly.

You want to treat your tortoise like she is in the wild? Torts get killed and eaten and maimed ALL the time in the wild. Is that what you want for your baby? If its not, then I would advise that you start acting more responsibly.

Your tortoise should have an escape proof, and predator proof enclosure. To be outside all of the time, she should also have a secure sleeping area, safe from predators as well.

Why would you would not provide these things for her willingly, I do not know. If she wants to dig down anyway, that is her choice. But why would you not even let her have the option?

100x100 is too large for such a small baby. She would do well in 10x10. And you could actually supervise her, and make sure that she eats enough, where she is actually sleeping etc.

But honestly, I think some "unbunching" needs to be done here, on more than just Maggie's end of things. This is supposed to be a friendly place. You shouldn't be "flaming" anyone here. Its in the code. Maybe you should take a look at it, before posting again.


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## chadk (Apr 29, 2009)

Mark, besides picking a fight with Maggie (Okay, maybe you didn't pick it), i agree that the tort seems to small to be roaming in an open yard. Stray cats, coyotes, raccoons, dogs, hawks, crows, rats, etc are all dangers for a tiny tort. Sure, in the wild they would be out and about - but think of the survival rate of young torts in the wild. With just one exposed like that, you are taking a big risk. They deal with many things in the wild - that does not mean you should subject them to it... Floods, fires, predators, disease, starvation, dehydration, impaction from eating things they shouldn't, etc etc. Some even manage to live to adult hood  

With our pets, we try to keep things 'natural and realistic', but reduce the risks as much a possible for loved pet, and time and $$ investment...

An oudoor enclosure for a tiny tort should have a screen top. Others who do outdoor enclosures for smaller torts make a small pen and only put them there in the day time. If they keep them out day\night, they generally have a safe hide and secure the pen (screen\wire) if predators are a possible issue...


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## NoSup4U (Apr 29, 2009)

Meg90 said:


> ok. One, watch your language. This is supposed to be a child friendly site. And being blatantly rude will not get you anywhere. We have had a lot of newbies exhibit similar behavior in the last few months. Its negative, and hurtful, and again, why can someone not be the bigger person?



Did I swear somewhere that I wasn't aware of?



Meg90 said:


> This thread does not need to turn into a fight. If you did not agree with advice given, don't take it. But to attack another member on a personal level, is wrong, and against the code here.



I agree. Please post a post condeming Maggie also and I'll respect what you have to say.



Meg90 said:


> And secondly.
> 
> You want to treat your tortoise like she is in the wild? Torts get killed and eaten and maimed ALL the time in the wild. Is that what you want for your baby? If its not, then I would advise that you start acting more responsibly.



I didn't say I want to. I just said that's how it is, so give me a good reason to change it up.



Meg90 said:


> Your tortoise should have an escape proof, and predator proof enclosure. To be outside all of the time, she should also have a secure sleeping area, safe from predators as well.



My tort has the EXACT same kind of enclosure I have seen in many of the users of this site's pictures. Its just bigger. It is escape proof. It is predator proof. She has a secure sleeping area but chooses not to use it. Why is that a problem? Give me a good reason, that was my question to you before that you did not answer. How is her digging herself a hole underneath a cactus not safe from predators. Do hawks come out in the middle of the night now and dig up tortoises???



Meg90 said:


> Why would you would not provide these things for her willingly, I do not know. If she wants to dig down anyway, that is her choice. But why would you not even let her have the option?



Wait, so you don't let your tortoise dig a hole because you feel that is unsafe for her? I mean, whatever safe sleeping habitat you give her is just replicating how they sleep in the wild. Which is in a hole they've dug for themselves, or am I incorrect about that?

Mark



chadk said:


> Mark, besides picking a fight with Maggie (Okay, maybe you didn't pick it), i agree that the tort seems to small to be roaming in an open yard. Stray cats, coyotes, raccoons, dogs, hawks, crows, rats, etc are all dangers for a tiny tort. Sure, in the wild they would be out and about - but think of the survival rate of young torts in the wild. With just one exposed like that, you are taking a big risk. They deal with many things in the wild - that does not mean you should subject them to it... Floods, fires, predators, disease, starvation, dehydration, impaction from eating things they shouldn't, etc etc. Some even manage to live to adult hood



Thanks for your post Chad. The only thing my tort has to worry about are owls. Not floods fires, starvation etc. I've checked all the edible plants in my backyard and the only thing questionable is lantana which I have found conflicting advice on.

So I guess nobody on the site allows their torts to run around in an uncovered area alone during the day? I'm surprised at this because I've seen so many pictures of people here's tort grazing areas that look to the untrained eye like open grassy areas. Isn't everyone worried a hawk will swoop down and gobble their tort up?

Mark


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## Meg90 (Apr 29, 2009)

Maggie has not continued to post in this thread. What she did post, was something defending herself. I can't find anything in there about how you have an identity crisis, or how your panties are in a bunch. Why should I "condem" her for that?

Why are you continuing to try and pick fights? Your language towards Maggie, and myself seems to only serve as a spark to start another fire.

If you think that your tortoise is fine, why did you bother to ask for advice? Several people have offered their opinions on your actions, and all you have said, is that you see nothing wrong with them.

How about this, another reason to secure your animal is theft. Out in the open like that, if someone made it into your yard, she'd be easy pickings. In a locked enclosure with a top, thats another story. Tortoise theft is not uncommon.

Also, you say that your dog has no problem with the tortoise. Is your yard cat and dog proof? Because neighboring animals might not be so understanding.

It really saddens me when new members ask for advice, and those with experience give it, but all they take from that, is an invitation to fight about who is smarter, or better, or whatever else there is to fight about.


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## egyptiandan (Apr 29, 2009)

Hi Mark,
Like Yvonne said the dark stain on your sulcatas mouth is most likely fron the grass and weeds he's eating.
Maggie's posts in your thread have been her opinion and nothing more. They may not be your opinions and they may be shouted (sometimes). She also doesn't "sugar coat" anything she says.
You on the other hand didn't give your opinion on her advice/opinion but on Maggie herself, which isn't allowed. You also took the second self righteous totally out of context.
Consider this your only warning, all others will be official.
By all means disagree with someone's opinion, just no attacks on the person giving the opinion. 
Now back to the subject at hand 

Danny


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## Crazy1 (Apr 29, 2009)

*Very long Post*

*You said you want good reasons to change the way you are keeping your torts here are a few.* 
Just for reference; your quotes are in black, my comments are in green links are in blue.

I live in AZ, and I have a completely enclosed backyard with grass and desert landscaping etc. We just moved in a few months ago and are in the process of redoing the backyard. The original plan was to build an area on one side of the yard for the torts but they've both basically dug themselves a home on the other side of the yard from where we set up their habitat and seem perfectly happy traversing around. We don't see any reason at the moment why they shouldn't be allowed to, as there isn't anything dangerous in the backyard other than cactus I guess? 
Guess again. Here is a link you might want to read. 
http://www.azgfd.com/w_c/urban_wildlife.shtml
And if you have been working on the back yard you can still set up an area for them on the side of the yard they chose, it will involve you moving the habitat.

I would be surprised if a lot of tort owners don't see their torts for a few days. Lets say that I wake up at 6am. Get ready for work. Leave my house by 7am before they're up and about. Get home by 6pm when they're already nestled in some nook or cranny they've decided to sleep in for the night. I mean, I would think that would be a pretty common scenario for a person to encounter right? Like, if someone told me they didn't see their tort for a few days, that's what I would think would be the reason. Yes, some keepers do not see their torts for several days but they are not young 4 in torts. I have several torts that are 4 inches and under that I may not see for a day or two during the summer but they are in a secure enclosure with a top made of Ã‚Â¼ inch hardware cloth (for those who do not know this is a type of metal like screen only much thicker and the holes are Ã‚Â¼ to Ã‚Â½ inch openings), and a bottom that has that same hardware cloth dug down 8-12 inches then covered in dirt (No one in No on out. And the pics you are looking at that show large grazing areas on here are for larger torts. Or an area that is closely supervised by the keeper. 

That doesn't really apply to me though, as I work from home. I just happen to have a really big backyard with natural desert landscaping and tons of places for my little 4 inch long Sulcata to hide. So sometimes even when I go looking everywhere for him, he's impossible to find. And then she shows up the next day and I'm always baffled as to where he could have been. Torts are masters at hiding. Especially one that is only 4 inches long. How will you feel if you canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t find your Sully for weeks on end. This is a species that does not hibernate. So you will have to set up a warm area during the winter for it. So getting it use to a specific area now is a good thing. If you set up an area for your tort and it chose the other side of the yard, change the area. Move the enclosure, Tort hide, house etc to the area of the yard it is using. Place it inside and block it in. Then in the morning take it out. That way you know he has not been exposed to nighttime predators.
I am glad to hear your dog is trainable as to his bathroom area. But I do caution you allowing your dog around your small tort. Dogs even the ones that seem to ignore or get along with torts can often do irreparable damage or death and it only take a moment. Please separate your dogs from your torts, For your torts safety. Please Read the links I provided and there are many more. 
http://www.azeah.com/Care-Sheets.asp?id=107
http://www.dewsburycrafts.co.za/leopard_tortoise1.htm
http://animalinsider.com/post/53646031/worlds-most-incredible-animal-prosthetics

Some questions for the rest of users here:
My tort is 3 years old, many of you seem to think this is too young to be roaming the yard. Why is it any different if he roams a 10X10 box or a 100X100 yard? Same stuff in there no? In the wild he'd be roaming on his own by now.
Again this goes to the predators. Then there is the ability to check your tort daily. Is it hydrated? Does it have a runny nose? Is it injured? If in an enclosed area you are able to do this daily when you take him out for the day and when you make sure he is in for the night. Yes in the wild he would be roaming on his own from the time it hatched but the survival rate is low. Do you really want to risk losing your Sully when it would be so easy at this stage and age to prevent? Some torts dig holes, nothing you can do will stop that short of placing them on concrete. And Sullys are one of those known to dig. I also know some that do not dig burrows because they were taught to use a shed that is heated and therefore do not need to dig a burrow that can be 20 feet deep. Unnatural perhaps but better than losing your Sully to a cold wet AZ winter. Or a rain that drowns him in a burrow. But if you want your tort to dig please minimize the threat of someone stepping on their tunnel or burrow and collapsing it, or rain filling it and drowning your Sully etc, by building one for it. Make it secure. Please check out the sites I have listed for you regarding building a burrow. And there are many more of these sites.
http://www.desertmuseum.org/programs/tap_burrow.php
http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/tortoise/burrow.shtml

So I guess nobody on the site allows their torts to run around in an uncovered area alone during the day? 
I'm surprised at this because I've seen so many pictures of people here's tort grazing areas that look to the untrained eye like open grassy areas. Isn't everyone worried a hawk will swoop down and gobble their tort up?
Absolutely not when they are that small. 
My small torts are never out in the open. I do not risk their lives for the convenience of myself. I have given them a secure area in which to live free of predators and unnecessary risks. Overdoing it you think? Perhaps but then I took the responsibility of caring for these shelled wonders and in so doing will do what ever it takes to provide the best care I can. Want them to live a natural existence as if they are in Africa? Natural, sure you can keep your tort as natural as possible, but have you checked the geography of their natural habitat? What the temps and rainfall is where they originally come from what is the natural flora and fauna in those areas? Does AZ mimic that exactly? Close Yes, exactly NO. 

And what you will find on here is that people are concerned for their torts and turts. They only want what is best. They want no harm to come to them and they do the very best they can for them. I am sure that is what you want. You joined the forum and I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t really think it was to argue about how you keep your torts. You asked for us to change your mind on how you keep them. That tells me you have doubts. That is a good thing. You are asking questions and we are trying to give you some answers. Some are no nonsense. Some my sugar coat it but the one thing I am sure of is that we all want healthy happy torts. 

Hopefully I have answered a few questions that may have gotten over looked or clarified one or two. If I have made you think and come up with more questions please feel free to post them or send me a PM


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## desertsss (Apr 30, 2009)

My torts get the dark color around their mouth with the greens they eat and I pick up their poop as soon as I see it. Even tonight I was feeding them and they won't even notice if there is a little still stuck to their chin. Whenever I notice though I soak them and then give them a little mouth love which I just rub them down a little bit with a paper towel or a real soft tooth brush. The color won't go away immediately, but I seem to think it helps so long as the scrubbing isn't hard at all. Good luck! I'm sure your tort will be smiling green soon.


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## NoSup4U (Apr 30, 2009)

Thanks Crazy1, I'll check out your links.

Mark


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## bettinge (Apr 30, 2009)

This is why I'm here! You see the incrediable effort Robyn (Crazy1) went to to help a person she will never know and help a tort she will never see. We all owe a huge amount of gratitude to Robyn and a dozen or so others here(Danny, Josh, Yvonne, Maggie, Meg90, etc, etc, etc) at the Tortoise Forum. Learning can only be fun with an instructor that really cares, and we have that here....thanks!


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## bikerchicspain (Apr 30, 2009)

Please do not let a dog any where near your tort. I had a case a few days ago, someone brought in a tort that had been attacked by the family dog that according to the owner a few weeks before was smitten by the tort and they slept side by side in the garden,Against my advice, The dog had gotten hold of the poor tort and he had puncture wounds all over his little body, His shell was badly damaged and bleeding,His skin above his tail had been torn away from the shell. He is hosptalised at the moment being pumped with drugs to stop any abcesses forming which is comun with animal bites, He is also being force fed as the trauma was so much for him that he wont eat. This one was lucky, but thousands of torts die a year because of other family pets..Please don't put him at risk..


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## Yvonne G (Apr 30, 2009)

Well, Robyn, you've done it again! You never cease to amaze me when you post those links for us. You always manage to come up with links to interesting and educational sites...and sites that I haven't seen before. Thank you for doing that research for us. I REALLY appreciate it.

Yvonne


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## Crazy1 (Apr 30, 2009)

Thanks Betts and Yvonne, You know I am here to help with the care of our shelled ones. I don't mind researching as I am constantly learning new things too. And if any of it helps Woo-Hoo. Doing the happy dance.


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## Isa (Apr 30, 2009)

Amazing Robyn,
Very interesting links. Thank you very much for all your hard work


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## Meg90 (Apr 30, 2009)

Robyn is also the epitome of speaking nicely! While us hotheads get kinda frustrated halfway through a post, and write things we shouldn't, Robyn, you always manage to be sweet about it! (its darn impressive!)

Good post! I enjoyed the links myself. All the more reason for me to make Nigel's outdoor enclosure secure from dogs. (my mom has a Boston and mini dachshund---and I wouldn't mix Nigel with either of them willingly)


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## DAC8671 (May 1, 2009)

Mark, Can you post a picture of your little one, body and close up of the face so we can see what dark marks you're talking about? Also what your backyard looks like. The enclosure he won't use too. That would help a lot. Here are a few pics of my Ralph, does the staining look anything like this???????

















Oh, I forgot to mention...

Ralph has an outdoor enclosure. He has a dogloo for a "bedroom" (heat lamp affixed inside with timothy hay bedding). He has a large terra cota plate for water. The majority of his enclosure is on grass, with about 4 feet on the cement (he likes to sun soak on the cement as well as eat.) He also has a wooden "shade" area. 

During the day he roams the backyard freely. We do, however, block off areas he's not supposed to get to (I didn't block it off the first few times and found him in the garage near all the chemicals). Since that incident, I've blocked off areas that are off limits. He no longer even tries to go in those areas. 

At night or when we are not home, he is in his enclosure. This is for his safety. We do have large dogs who share the backyard with him. But when he's roaming my dogs are either in the house sleeping (what they do best) or I'm out there interacting with the animals. 

When Ralph is done for the day, he will pace back and forth in front of his enclosure. He wants to go to bed. He knows that his enclosure is a constant/safe place. The enclosure site doesn't change. He knows where it is. My point to this paragraph is that when torts know something is a constant they get used to it and are comfortable with it. If you let your little one out during the day and put him in his enclosure each afternoon or evening, he will get used to that and show you he wants to go home. On the flip side of that, Ralph also will pace the inside of his enclosure if I've not gotten out to let him out when HE wants out (it's all on HIS terms, not mine hehehehe)

Not everyone is going to agree 100% of the time and that's okay. We can all be adults. How you react to it is YOUR decision (your=everyone). If someones says something that bothers you, take it off post and settle it like adults. There is a WEALTH of information here just waiting to be soaked up by tort and turt lovers. I would really hate to see posts get bogged down with arguements. I would rather see info being shared and ESPECIALLY PICTURES!!!!!!


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## Crazy1 (May 1, 2009)

NoSup4U, let me know what you think of the links and stuff. And as DAC8671 (Debbie) said if you can post pics especially of the tort it will help. I am worried about the eyes being black, which we didin't even address. Oh and I would not feed it lantana. My WC torts avoid it at all costs. better safe than sorry.


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## Yvonne G (May 1, 2009)

Nice post, Debbie...thanks,

Yvonne


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