# ?? Husbandry, enclosure, brumation



## Rnasty (Sep 25, 2021)

I’ve been raising these three torts I got from an old couple that are friends with my parents who didn’t know you should not house DT’s together. I’ve since helped them create a barrier to split their enclosure, but I ended up with three hatchlings because they couldn’t handle taking care of them at their age.

From the first day I’ve tried to do my research and raise them as best I can, but there’s a lot of conflicting or outdated info out there. I want to fix flaws in my husbandry because I intend to have these the rest of my life.

Here are pictures of each one, They’re all 2 years old.








They’re all beginning to pyramid, and I want to fix that immediately.

After reading information here I’ve definitely been using outdated enclosure practices. Open top, housing them together, dry substrate, a good amount of time is spent inside. I live near Fresno, CA so it’s very hot and dry in the summer. I’m able to keep them outside when the heat isn’t extreme.

I have two enclosures - one is an outdoor raised flower bed that has a burrow and has been planted with bermuda, fescue, and white flower clover. It has a burrow that goes about 6 -8 inches down that they can all fit in, it’s about as long as my forearm. Because I water the grass and clover, the burrow gets humid. The second enclosure is your basic open top tortoise table inside that all the info on here tells you not to use. I bring them inside when it gets too hot (like 103+ for weeks) because the burrow in the raised flower bed gets above 85 degrees. I’d love to keep them in an enclosure that was in the actual ground but my neighborhood is infested with gophers and I don’t want to find a chewed up tortoise. While they do spend a fair amount of time indoors, they get daily sunlight, usually a few hours earlier in the day when it’s cooler. When the weather isn’t too hot they’re outside all day.


My plan now is to create three separate enclosures and stack them on a shelf. Make them totally enclosed and control the humidity and temperature better. I’m not sure how I’ll do this without making it giant. Are there any low profile heat lamps? I don’t want to create a giant monstrosity. I'll be moving to an apartment within the year so I won't have access to outdoors that I'd like.

I’ve done very well with their diet I feel. It’s mostly bermuda, fescue, spurge, and white clover. I also feed dandelions and native weeds frequently. I supplement with appropriate greens from the store, mulberry, grape, and rose. They get soaked every couple of days and have access to water. I use vitamin and calcium supplements

One more question I have is if I should brumate. I’ve kept them up the previous 2 winters and I’m sure it isn’t the proper way as I’m using a open top table. The temp swings, low humidity, and drafts can’t be good for them. I’ve just kept them as warm as I can with heat lamps, provided UVB, and soaked them frequently. It’s worked so far but I don’t want to keep doing what isn’t optimal. I’ve been hoping to winter them in the garage, but I don’t want to make a mistake and lose one. That’s the point of this post. If I can’t overwinter them properly because I need to build new enclosures, isn't it only right to let them brumate in the garage?

Any advice is appreciated. I know I've made mistakes so far I just want to correct them


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## Yvonne G (Sep 25, 2021)

One of my favorites! I have two right now same age as yours. But one of mine is smaller than the other because, like you, I keep them together. This winter I plan on allowing them their first brumation, then in the Spring they will be set up individually.

Because of City street work that is going to affect my desert tortoise brumation area, I plan to make them a spot on the car port. 

I put down plywood, then a rubber horse stall mat (Tractor Supply), then I made walls out of cinder blocks. You can make it as big as you need it. Next to the cinder block walls is rigid foam and next to that is plywood. I put a layer of orchid bark on the floor. For the cover I glued rigid foam to plywood and just lay it on top. I prop it open with a stick when I need to be in there.

If you want to come over sometime and help me find all the desert and Texas tortoises, and take a look at my brumation areas, give me a call at 298-7114 to work out a time.

The pyramiding is because they were kept too dry and under hot lights as babies.


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## Tom (Sep 25, 2021)

Rnasty said:


> I’ve been raising these three torts I got from an old couple that are friends with my parents who didn’t know you should not house DT’s together. I’ve since helped them create a barrier to split their enclosure, but I ended up with three hatchlings because they couldn’t handle taking care of them at their age.
> 
> From the first day I’ve tried to do my research and raise them as best I can, but there’s a lot of conflicting or outdated info out there. I want to fix flaws in my husbandry because I intend to have these the rest of my life.
> 
> ...


You've done very well. The pyramiding is minimal. The diet you are offering sounds perfect.

Here is the current and correct care info:





The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise


I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...




tortoiseforum.org





If you want to hibernate them, here is info on that. I explain the process in post number 19, in case you want to skip the rest:





Looking for an RT Hibernation "Mentor"


In this thread, @Tom mentioned seeking out a "mentor" who has experience in successfully hibernating Russian tortoises. So I am looking for you! Or any ideas of potential helpful peeps... Thanks! :) A little background: My boyfriend and I are interested in hibernating Steve, our male Russian...




tortoiseforum.org





Questions and conversation are welcome.


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## Rnasty (Sep 27, 2021)

Thanks for the replies! I appreciate the info about hibernation.

I guess my main question is if there is a way to heat an enclosure while keeping it low profile. I'd like to make a large shelf with 3 enclosures, 1 for each, but I don't want it to be massive. Are there any low profile bulbs you know of to heat things?

Once I get that built I can manage things and hit the ground running in the spring.


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## Tom (Sep 27, 2021)

Rnasty said:


> Thanks for the replies! I appreciate the info about hibernation.
> 
> I guess my main question is if there is a way to heat an enclosure while keeping it low profile. I'd like to make a large shelf with 3 enclosures, 1 for each, but I don't want it to be massive. Are there any low profile bulbs you know of to heat things?
> 
> Once I get that built I can manage things and hit the ground running in the spring.


I had a rack system like that for a time. I abandoned it for closed chamber enclosures that could be stacked. Seen here:





New Stack of Animal Plastics CLosed Chambers


AKA: Tom's baby emporium. @GStars asked for a pic on my new baby raising enclosures the other day. I only had a partial, but I took a fuller one today. Each cage is 96x30 and divided in the middle into two 48x30 cages for starting babies. The colored tape on each upper right corner shows the...




tortoiseforum.org





I just used 45 or 65 watt flood bulbs in my rack enclosures. You could also run a rheostat on each to control the temp.

I think a trio would be fine together in one large enclosure. I wouldn't do a pair, but a trio of juveniles should be okay until the male hormones start to kick in.


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## Rnasty (Sep 28, 2021)

Tom said:


> I had a rack system like that for a time. I abandoned it for closed chamber enclosures that could be stacked. Seen here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Oh awesome, I'm just going to make a single enclosure then and copy that design. Helps so much on space.

How does having three in one enclosure work but two doesn't? I'm guessing any aggression gets spread around. I've noticed two instances of aggression with these guys in two years, but as soon as I added visual barriers it stopped. Oddly, they always pick to sleep in the same burrow together even though there are three available.


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## Tom (Sep 28, 2021)

Rnasty said:


> Oh awesome, I'm just going to make a single enclosure then and copy that design. Helps so much on space.
> 
> How does having three in one enclosure work but two doesn't? I'm guessing any aggression gets spread around. I've noticed two instances of aggression with these guys in two years, but as soon as I added visual barriers it stopped. Oddly, they always pick to sleep in the same burrow together even though there are three available.


With just two it is very personal. With three or more, there is enough going on that its not a problem. Pair dynamics are totally different than group dynamics.


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## Rnasty (Sep 29, 2021)

Tom said:


> With just two it is very personal. With three or more, there is enough going on that its not a problem. Pair dynamics are totally different than group dynamics.


Well that works perfect. I plan on building my own enclosure now out of PVC and following some of the models I've found on here. At what age do the desert tortoises no longer need a vivarium? I'm trying to plan long term for moving them outside permanently.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 29, 2021)

Rnasty said:


> Thanks for the replies! I appreciate the info about hibernation.
> 
> I guess my main question is if there is a way to heat an enclosure while keeping it low profile. I'd like to make a large shelf with 3 enclosures, 1 for each, but I don't want it to be massive. Are there any low profile bulbs you know of to heat things?
> 
> Once I get that built I can manage things and hit the ground running in the spring.


If you're going to allow brumation, you don't want to heat the enclosure.

Here's a picture of my shelves:




This is in a dedicated reptile room, so I'm not too worried if it matches 'my decor.' You can get the shelves at any home improvement store. For the lights, I use tube type fluorescent UVB bulbs that I bought at lightyourreptiles.com. They are pretty low profile.


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## Rnasty (Sep 29, 2021)

T


Yvonne G said:


> If you're going to allow brumation, you don't want to heat the enclosure.
> 
> Here's a picture of my shelves:
> 
> ...



Awesome! For the winter I'm going to keep them in the garage, Fresno CA has temp ranges that allow for that. I'll be using the winter time to build their new enclosure. I'd love to keep them up as it gives me more peace of mind, but given that I can't properly keep them indoors this winter I think it's only best to let them do what they do naturally.

I'm thinking of making a 60"x48"x24" enclosure they will fit in for 2-3 years, then moving them outdoors when we buy a house.


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