# Breeding Two Different Species of Tortoises Together



## deadheadvet (Apr 6, 2016)

Would someone please tell me the benefits of purposely breeding a Leopard Tortoise to a Sulcata? 
There is no genetic benefit I can come up with to this. Are we now getting into designer tortoises like the designer mutts dog breeders have created? This is not the same thing to me as breeding Pardalis babcocki to Pardalis pardalis. These are subspecies of Pardalis so I have no issue with that.


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## dmmj (Apr 6, 2016)

Money, no other reason to be honest with you.


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## Tom (Apr 6, 2016)

People have cited: "Novelty, its neat, pretty, interesting", and "because you can…"

I don't agree with any reason I've ever heard and I do what I can to discourage the practice whenever possible.

About the leopards: I do wish that people with true SA leopards would only breed them to other SA leopards, but I don't control the world...


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## Tom (Apr 6, 2016)

dmmj said:


> Money, no other reason to be honest with you.



Do these hybrids sell for more than the "regular" species?


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## G-stars (Apr 6, 2016)

Have never agreed with that practice. Some people state that it's ok because turtles do it in the wild... To answer your question @Tom yes they do go for more.


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## deadheadvet (Apr 6, 2016)

Not sure. How do you even know if they would be fertile?


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## Speedy-1 (Apr 6, 2016)

*I would try to discourage it , but if someone will pay money for it some one else is sure to do it ! *


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## dmmj (Apr 6, 2016)

Tom said:


> Do these hybrids sell for more than the "regular" species?


I have seen the hybrid listed for $1,500 on King Snake and at the fairs and Expos. So money seems like a pretty good reason to me.


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## Lancecham (Apr 6, 2016)

Someone on Fauna Classifieds just had a hatchling Sulcata x Leopard cross a for sale for $750.


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## Speedy-1 (Apr 6, 2016)

*Oh good ! We best get started making up stupid names ! You know , like Chiweenie , or Labradoodle . So would they be "Sulpards" or "Leocatas" ?*


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## wellington (Apr 6, 2016)

Speedy-1 said:


> *Oh good ! We best get started making up stupid names ! You know , like Chiweenie , or Labradoodle . So would they be "Sulpards" or "Leocatas" ?*


They call them leopracata I think is the right spelling.
Unfortunately there a really stupid people in the world. Those that mix species and those that pay big bucks for them. It's one of my biggest pet peeves. Like the OP mentioned. All the mixed breeds/mutts that are going for big bucks. It's a mutt nothing else. Yes, mutts are great dogs, but why do people have to purposely breed for them when there are many accidental ones sitting in shelters. They do it because idiots will pay for it. Money is truely the root of most if not all evil. It's sad, very sad.


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## Tom (Apr 6, 2016)

dmmj said:


> I have seen the hybrid listed for $1,500 on King Snake and at the fairs and Expos. So money seems like a pretty good reason to me.



That's crazy. I wouldn't take one for free.


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## popeye tortoise (Apr 6, 2016)

How about Frankentortoise. Ridiculous!!!!


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## Rue (Apr 6, 2016)

I have to agree with the 'designer' breeding - that there is no point to it. They do it with birds too.

I also don't understand all the people who bash the good breeders of purebred dogs, for example, but then go spend more than what a well-bred purebred would cost - on a puggle (or whatever mix they choose).

At the very least of it...they wouldn't have their puggle if there weren't two purebreds to begin with!


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## wellington (Apr 6, 2016)

Rue said:


> I have to agree with the 'designer' breeding - that there is no point to it. They do it with birds too.
> 
> I also don't understand all the people who bash the good breeders of purebred dogs, for example, but then go spend more than what a well-bred purebred would cost - on a puggle (or whatever mix they choose).
> 
> At the very least of it...they wouldn't have their puggle if there weren't two purebreds to begin with!


I don't think it's the good breeders doing the mix breeding. Cuz a good breeder would never think of doing that. I want breeders of dogs at least, to pay a yearly breeding license fee of at least $500.00 a year. If you don't get the license and you breed dogs, the fine would be thousands. I'm sickened of all the homeless dogs and sickened by all the backyard breeders breeding mutts. Maybe a license to breed an animal is the answer to end bad breeding. The bad breeders wouldn't want to pay.


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## Rue (Apr 6, 2016)

No...it's not the good breeders (thank goodness). They wouldn't. We've shown dogs for years...(not at the moment though...and we don't breed). Lots of good, dedicated breeders out there.

I have also thought of a breeder license to curb animal breeding. I think - much like having a car - you need to take a driving course, pass a test and pay for a license...you should have to do something similar in order to breed animals. Take a class...pass a test...and pay a fee.

This won't stop serious breeders, but it will put brakes on backyard breeders.

I was out walking our mini-Dachshund in the city many years ago. A car honked at me. Stopped in the middle of the street - and asked if I wanted to breed her to their male. I said, no thank you, she's spayed. His reply? "Too bad, dumb thing to do...think of all the money you coulda made".

Er...that's NOT what I consider a good, well-thought out, breeding program...


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## Kapidolo Farms (Apr 6, 2016)

Dog analogy does not fit the conversation. Mixing breeds of one species (dogs) is not the same as mixing species. There are no subspecies of leopard tortoise, but distinct geographical expressions that can be sorted out with genetic analysis, to some extent, that is the basis for knowing there are no subspecies within _Stigmochelys pardalis_. It appears the phenotype traits associated with some leopards are as much captive breeding selection of what can be found in the wild, and which is narrower than the wild phenotype.

Back on point, Hybridizing species does occur in the wild, likely not to the extent that people do it with captive animals. Tortoise species seem to have a longer history of stability than kingsnakes, so it is a stronger resistance that it may work as well.

Some of the hybrids are beautiful (eye of the beholder and all). But I agree wholly with the general sentiment of the thread so far. I'd choose not to creat or advance hybrids and breed true geographic variants as possible even within one wide ranging species.

When I had a big mixed pen of T.c. subspecies they sorted themselves out pretty well, but it was apparent that an eastern Male did 'hit it' with some Florida females. Juiced Jersey boys and Florida bikini babes make nice looking box turtles, people actively sought them from me in subsequent years. I split them all up after that.

The rules of taxonomy change as does the scrutiny of how those rules are applied, and ever better tools reveal new species and lump others together. Within my life time this happened with orangutans, so there are inter-grade/hybrid orangs out there now. Even with not knowing the taxonomy of these apes, it might have been better to breed those that looked more like each other, then mix them. That would have saved alot of heart ache once it was actually sorted out with the now large zoo population of those apes.

Best not to fool with all this if ostensibly you tell yourself you are 'doing it' for the conservation of the species and you're not some tortoise flip-tard.


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## Rue (Apr 6, 2016)

Dog breeding does fit the conversation. You can talk about keeping a species pure...or you can talk about keeping a breed pure. Do we want/need hybrids? Do we want/need 'designer' mixed breed animals? And should 'just anyone' be able to produce more animals? Should there be a reason outside of 'I feel like it' for producing more animals?


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## G-stars (Apr 6, 2016)

I disagree. Dog breeds are purely man-made. All are canis lupus as one specie. While what is being discussed is the mixing of two different species such as a lion with a tiger.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 6, 2016)

Rue said:


> Dog breeding does fit the conversation. You can talk about keeping a species pure...or you can talk about keeping a breed pure. Do we want/need hybrids? Do we want/need 'designer' mixed breed animals? And should 'just anyone' be able to produce more animals? Should there be a reason outside of 'I feel like it' for producing more animals?



You are missing the point. Dogs are all *one species* - canis lupus familiaris. Not all tortoises are one species. You have Testudo, Geochelone, and on and on.


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## Rue (Apr 6, 2016)

I am not missing any point whatsoever - as I clearly explained.

I know the distinction between inter- and intra - specific breeding.

...carry on...


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## Tom (Apr 6, 2016)

Will said:


> Within my life time this happened with orangutans, so there are inter-grade/hybrid orangs out there now. Even with not knowing the taxonomy of these apes, it might have been better to breed those that looked more like each other, then mix them. That would have saved alot of heart ache once it was actually sorted out with the now large zoo population of those apes.
> 
> Best not to fool with all this if ostensibly you tell yourself you are 'doing it' for the conservation of the species and you're not some tortoise flip-tard.



All of the orangs that I worked with were hybrids, and the people selling them knew it.


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## Tom (Apr 6, 2016)

I hate the "intentional mutt" making business too. Its ridiculous. How do you take a very nice $1000 standard poodle, breed it to a very nice $1000 lab, and come up for $2500 for a mutt? Who would pay that? Labradoodles are usually nice dogs, but so is any other mutt I've come across.

End rant. Back on topic now…

No thank you to hybrids.
But also no thank you to paying the government and asking government permission if I want to breed my own dog in my backyard. (Which I have done, and created several competition winning pups, as well as my own current working movie star.)

More government interference in our lives is NEVER the answer.

Darn it! I went off topic again already!!!


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## Cheryl Hills (Apr 6, 2016)

Breeding different species Ike this could hurt the individual species. Once you interbreed, the pure breed will eventually disappear. This could case theexstinction of that species. I realize it does happen in nature but why do we as humans have to interfere? Many species have been lost because of this. Then all you have left are the hybreds. Also, as in dogs, this can course many different medical problems and deformities . This is just my opinion though.


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## Star-of-India (Apr 6, 2016)

Humans being humans, tinkering and mixing species will occur. If the species are not endangered and the progeny are not released into the wild, I guess I'd not be upset. But most turtle and tortoise species are endangered and some that aren't will be in the future, so interbreeding them is just purely unethical. 

The American Bison or buffalo has been making a comeback, but unfortunately many were interbred with cattle. Now lots of effort is being put into finding pure herds. Well, no one should have interbred them in the first place!


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## dmmj (Apr 6, 2016)

I would like to find out if these hybrids are fertile or not


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## Texas Scott (Apr 9, 2016)

dmmj said:


> I would like to find out if these hybrids are fertile or not



There was a Sulcata x Leopard on fauna classifieds being advertise as a proven female if bred with a sulcata.


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## Tom (Apr 9, 2016)

Dork said:


> There was a Sulcata x Leopard on fauna classifieds being advertise as a proven female if bred with a sulcata.



Not shooting the messenger here. I appreciate you telling us, but that is simply awful news…


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## Texas Scott (Apr 9, 2016)

Tom said:


> Not shooting the messenger here. I appreciate you telling us, but that is simply awful news…



I 100% agree. They're only doing for the money


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## Tom (Apr 9, 2016)

Dork said:


> I 100% agree. They're only doing for the money



I don't know that I agree. I think some people genuinely like odd novelty stuff, and the consequences that matter to me, just don't matter to them. Making money might be a factor, but I'm hesitant to assume that its the only factor or even the main factor.


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## Team Gomberg (Apr 9, 2016)

Dork said:


> There was a Sulcata x Leopard on fauna classifieds being advertise as a proven female if bred with a sulcata.


 So, the hybrid is only fertile if bred to a Sulcata?  is that what they are saying?


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## dmmj (Apr 9, 2016)

something smells funny in Denmark. No insult intended to Denmarkians


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## Baoh (Apr 12, 2016)

Reasons are mostly in relation to interest. Personal preference to do so. Similar drivers exist for many other parts of life. Fascination with the uncommon. A difference of "fashion" in some sense of the word. I prefer to eat chicken while others prefer the flavor of turkey, but it would be a small (minded) day if those who enjoy chicken got into a kerfuffle with those who enjoy turkey simply by virtue of the difference of opinion. Dog breeders selected, select, and will select for traits they either consider useful or personally attractive. As do people who work with plant cultivars and plant hybrids. These may not (always) involve mixing species, but the motivations are the same. Somebody wants to take something in a particular direction. Not everyone agrees on that direction, but not everyone has to. I always find it funny if a person says they do not "condone" this or that since I have seen that one trotted out many a time. Who cares what that person does or does not condone? Is one an authority? In the position of decision for all other beings and what their opinions and perspectives can or should be? Last I had checked, no, and no one seeks such permission from a non-governing individual anyway.

Hybridization does occur in the wild, but is not needed as any sort of justification. If one is not causing harm, then that is all there needs to be. That cannot be said for many dog breeds or plant cultivars (and plant hybrids) in terms of quality of life or disease resistance, but the people who make attempts to condemn one often make efforts to defend another. The only defining difference really being their own affinities and preferences for this versus that. Neither righteousness nor nobility is at play.

Among tortoises, the least expensive hybrids I have known of have been free ($0) and the most expensive hybrids I know to have sold were around $3000 USD. Interestingly, both were the exact same type of cross. Some people are maybe more generous than others. Some people exist outside of a market and awareness of that market. That latter bit seems to apply to most who discuss these things. Especially as it relates to a blanket answer, born of lacking experience, that it is so simply about money or financial gain. The most common obvious tortoise hybrid sells for approximately $500 to $650 as the typical range. Sometimes a little more. Some people shoot for $750 or $850, but that is usually not a price that is met with a buyer aside from exceptionally motivated people. It can depend on whether or not there is something more to the lineage of a given animal. That is for an individual. 

$500 must be a lot, yes? Some kind of attractive number to the uninitiated, it would seem. Therefore the people who produce these are trying to get rich quick with hybrids, eh? Not quite. This is something that gives me a combined sense of amusement in a comedic sense as well as simultaneous disappointment when people are asserting such from some position of inexperience (or at least a lack of understanding). A leopard mates with a sulcata. Eighty eggs are generated. Eighty. 80. An eight followed by a zero and before a decimal point. What would be the hatch rate on those *most* of the time? Do you know? I know. Most other breeders who have their actual hands in this know, too. Most often the hatch rate is 0%. There is an occasional non-zero hatch rate, which is super neat for those who get to experience that. Very rarely, and this has been maybe in three or four instances of the most common cross, there is a much better hatch rate (that never persisted). This is not anywhere close to frequent and even those who do have good fortune with this tend to not have several repetitive seasons with said fortune. Having observed the embryos myself, I have some insights into why this might be, but that is for another venue (since I put the work in there). Looking at a recent example, one leopcata (the original and founding spelling for the marketing name given to the pardalis X sulcata hybrid) resulted from over seventy eggs from the given pairing. The number was 76.

That is 1/76 @ $750 per, assuming it even sells at $750. After food, electricity, infrastructural bits like an incubator and incubation materials, and so on. $750 is potentially walked away with for a given amount of breeding effort.

As opposed to? Sulcata x sulcata with that same 76-egg season. Sulcata hatchlings, as with all tortoise hatchlings, have a variable range. $25-$50 for wholesale (mas o menos). $50-$100 retail (mas o menos). If we take a not really good and just okayish hatch rate of 80%, that leaves us with 60.8 eggs. Cannot hatch 0.8 eggs, so I will round down to 60 for convenience here. $25 x 60 = $1500. $50 x 60 = $3000. $100 x 60 = $6000. Not advanced math. I would expect an elementary-school-age child to be able to rock these numbers without it being a challenge (or so I would hope so our future would not be doomed).

$750 < $1500 < $3000 < $6000

Yeah, so...not so much for the money unless a person is devoid of mathematical ability *after* having actually taken the above into perspective. Then I suppose any number could be declared as being for the money. What?! A penny?! SO AFFLUENT! Jokes aside, hybrids are produced out of interest and not usually with the goal of money as the primary driver. The upside of per-unit profit is rarely greater than the downside of reduction in unit volume when it comes to hybrids. Even for those with the very rare great season, it must be weighed against the seasons which produce nada. A great hybrid year does not make up for a bad hybrid half-decade and a good pure half-decade beats that in terms of profitability.

Health performance is not really different from the parent species. Personality varies with the individual, too, just as it does for an individual of a single species. You have to own several to comment on this beyond a position built on making stuff up on the spot. 

The curious notion that this does away with the parent species? Yeah, that is a stretch of a stretch (of a stretch). Hybrids have existed for a long time. Some of the most relatively (yet not actually) common hybrids involve three overwhelmingly common species in the US. 

Sulcata, pardalis, and carbonaria. Leopcatas have existed for years. I know of TWENTY-YEAR-OLD leopcatas. I know of eight-year-old leofoots (pardalis X carbonaria). Redcatas (carbonaria x sulcata) are relatively new, but there are only TWO known to exist as of this post. You know what we have more of now than before here in the US that are in fact not hybrids? Sulcatas, pardalis, and carbonaria. All super common here. All in no threat of decline here. Some (not I, but some) people actively argue against further breeding of some of these species due to the number produced and the number of those which end up poorly kept. Still getting produced by the cloaca-load every year, though. Frankly, in order to use a hybrid to screw these species up, you pretty much would have to have a wide-scale effort to expressly and intentionally do exactly that. Realistically, you could still never hit the numbers. Also, it is kind of funny for me when I see the argument tossed into the ring that claims a mystery breeder would try to intentionally pass these off as something purer. Scarcity can help increase demand and demand can help increase price. A person would not want to pretend something he could get $500 for is suddenly "only" worth $100, $200, or $300. That is a self-defeating practice from step one.

Even for the individuals of the respective parent species used to generate these hybrids, they still go on to later contribute to their own species (not that it is needed, but they do). The healthy males involved are inherently free to inseminate healthy females of another species as well as healthy females of their own. Females can be returned to a breeding scenario wherein they are only bred in the future by their own kind. That happened for some of the more public leopcatas. The het for ivory female sulcatas were bred to an ivory sulcata male and a leopard male. Eventually, the leopard male was moved to a new residence and the female sulcatas were producing only sulcatas again rather than a mix of sulcatas and leopcatas thanks to heteropaternal superfecundation at the time of dual access. In this way, there were no losses of the primary reproductive units involved. Actually, an animal kept isolated or prevented from breeding is removed from its ability to contribute to its species and population more so than hybrid generators are once the hybrid generators return to their original groupings. I do not know about you, but I have no interest in berating a person for choosing to keep one sulcata alone as a pet all of its life and that is absolute prevention of its ability to contribute.

Are these hybrids fertile? That is currently unknown. Chances are that at least some are. I had a nest once, but I did not get the opportunity to evaluate fertility that time. Supposing they were not, though, the inability to produce would be in favor of squashing the already exaggerated fear of "corruption" mentioned in an earlier paragraph. Supposing they are fertile, again, the numbers are still stacked against that coming to a wide-scale corrupting end. These things are much more apparent when doing in addition to (or instead of) only talking.

Breeding pure species and pure locality variants within species and breeding hybrids are not mutually exclusive activities. That false dichotomy gets broached for some reason. Probably for lack of thinking it through by the vocal party. I have several colonies of animals that are pure. Some colonies that are intergrades. Some colonies that are hybrids. Other breeders and keepers possess the same (or less or more). It is just like with morphs versus wild type animals. One can keep both and neither must "pollute" or interfere with the other in any way. If one can manage a half-decent quarantine protocol, one can manage separation of colonies as well. With the dog parallel so often brought up in these conversations - I primarily keep herding breeds and they are family members, companions, and working aides. My corgi does her job. My Vallhund does his job. My "cowboy corgi" (corgi X heeler/ACD) does her job. Others still do their respective jobs. Not one among these is a greater or lesser being relative to its pack members. The mutt is no less than the purebred dogs in any capacity aside from the context of a show I do not care about at all or a registry I do not care about at all. The mutt receives more compliments regarding her appearance by strangers and she receives more interest and offers by the ranchers I meet in the rural areas I spend time in. There is no more. There is no less. There is only other. Hybrids are very similar.


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## ZEROPILOT (Apr 12, 2016)

I keep several fishes known as Flowerhorn Cichlids.
They are hybrids and are the result of several different types of Cichlid being cross bred in the Orient for several decades.
For quite some time, these often brightly colored fishes with pronounced male heads were thousands of dollars each. Some still are.
The novelty has mostly dissapated now. However, these hybrids are able to reproduce and mate with native Cichlids wherever they get introduced. Many, many have been introduced because of the several thousand fry that are produced, only a small number will be spectacular, and the rest are generally dumped into the nearest body of water.
Much like a killer bee, these fishes have a focused ill temper and will kill anything that moves and eat anything that will fit in its mouth.






My point is that if you breed for novelty or for looks, there may be consequences.
These fish came to me from a pet store that closed down several years ago. They will not be bred.
These fishes are now in Florida waterways.
I don't suppose a hybrid tortoise colony would represent such an ecological nightmare.
The white fish is actually a flowerhorn that looks like a pure Midas Cichlid. I species that also is found in Florida, now. But is a relatively docile fish.
So just by looking, you can't even tell. She is related to the red and black fish. A more easily recognizable "Red Dragon."


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## ZEROPILOT (Apr 12, 2016)

I got off of the point I was trying to make and that is that once a hybrid has been developed, when does the D.N.A go "away"?
Even though the white one looks like a Midas, she is likely fertile and her offspring could spawn another batch of normal looking babies with this gene.
One could purchase a nice looking "normal" animal and later generations could be altered.
I enjoy owning these and I know many others that also do. They are out there in great numbers.
Where we disagree is on breeding them.


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## Hayden5555 (Aug 30, 2019)

Speedy-1 said:


> *I would try to discourage it , but if someone will pay money for it some one else is sure to do it ! *


Why is it so bad so? I’m planning to get a female Russian tortoise to breed with my male Greek soon I don’t understand why it’s “bad” I haven’t heard of any health defects it can do to the baby’s or anything so it’s not really different than breeding say a husky dog and a Pomeranian or different snakes.... that’s my intake on it. New to this and trying to learn more if you disagree with my intake please be mature and nicely explain your deference’s to my intake.


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## Tom (Aug 30, 2019)

Hayden5555 said:


> Why is it so bad so? I’m planning to get a female Russian tortoise to breed with my male Greek soon I don’t understand why it’s “bad” I haven’t heard of any health defects it can do to the baby’s or anything so it’s not really different than breeding say a husky dog and a Pomeranian or different snakes.... that’s my intake on it. New to this and trying to learn more if you disagree with my intake please be mature and nicely explain your deference’s to my intake.


Its bad for many reasons, all of which are thoroughly explained throughout this whole thread.

Disease potential of mixing species is one reason. Destroying the few "pure" strains of tortoise we have here in captivity is another. It is not easy to bring new ones in, and even if we do, we also risk bringing colony destroying pathogens with every WC tortoise that enters this country.

A husky and a Pomeranian are the same species. I would never recommend that crossing and can't understand why anyone else would either. A Russian and a greek are two different species and come from different parts of the world. They should be housed together at all. Ever. Much less intentionally allowed to breed. Different snakes? I'm totally against hybridization of snakes, fish, parrots, roaches, and anything else too. If someone want to mix to color variations of a corn snake and try for something new, I've got no problem with that. But mixing a corn and a king is a catastrophic mistake.


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## SweetGreekTorts (Aug 31, 2019)

Hayden5555 said:


> Why is it so bad so? I’m planning to get a female Russian tortoise to breed with my male Greek soon I don’t understand why it’s “bad” I haven’t heard of any health defects it can do to the baby’s or anything so it’s not really different than breeding say a husky dog and a Pomeranian or different snakes.... that’s my intake on it. New to this and trying to learn more if you disagree with my intake please be mature and nicely explain your deference’s to my intake.


Please don't crossbreed Russians with Greeks. Both species are different and it's bad enough that they are being pulled from their wild environments which decreases their populations. The whole point of captive breeding is to conserve these species and help keep the wild ones in the wild. By crossbreeding you only dilute and screw up their bloodlines and that does not help either species at all. It's reckless and irresponsible.

I have groups of different Greeks in my breeding program, including different locals with the same subspecies, and I won't even mix breed them. My Ibera from Northern Turkey are always separated from my Ibera from Ankara Turkey. My Bodenheimer's Floweri terrestris will never be bred with my Mesopotamian terrestris from Jordan. I want to keep their bloodlines pure which is why I'm getting into breeding in the first place. Conservation. My goal is to help them, not hurt them.

The only benefit breeders get from crossing species is to make money by offering "something unique" that other breeders don't have, and they believe people will pay big amounts of money for it. That's the only reason they do it, because the process in no way benefits the two species of tortoises involved. At all.


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## Blackdog1714 (Aug 31, 2019)

Just Google the endagered species list and look at the critically endagered list. If a cross breeding has already occurred then that line is unavailable to carry on that line. It is a sad time we live in now where you can watch almost realtime as species disappear from the cruel intervention of humanity. Something as simple as spraying for mosquitos has terrible over-reaching effects on wide range of non-invasive species like butterflies.


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