# Iceberg Lettuce?



## Tom (Jul 10, 2022)

As a tortoise food, what's wrong with iceberg lettuce? Or other lettuce types too?
1. Too low in calcium.
2. Low Ca : P ratio.
3. Low fiber.
4. Low nutritional value.

Its everything a tortoise food should not be. Right? But what if we amend the lettuce? What if we mix in things to make up for these shortcomings and the lettuce serves as a delivery vehicle for these other items, along with the high water content of lettuce, all in a "package" that tortoises love?

As the size of my herd, and the size of the tortoises in my herd, have increased over the years, so to have my tortoise food needs increased. I used to be able to grow enough to feed them all, but with the drought, lack of time, and constant battles with the local wildlife eating my crops, I've had to start buying food. I still grow some of my own food, but its not enough anymore. I'm buying two cases of endive, escarole or romaine a week, and still have an opuntia day, Mazuri day, and either a mulberry or grapevine day. When I started feeding the grocery store greens, I was sure to add in what I call "amendments" to increase the fiber, calcium, and variety. For fiber, I soak Timothy hay horse pellets, These break down and I mix it with the lettuce in five gallon buckets, or large tubs. I use either type of ZooMed pellet for this purpose as well. Then I mix in some of @Kapidolo Farms dried leaf options. Moringa, dandelion, echinacea, marsh mallow, nettle, etc... Then I will add in some calcium powder. All of these things combined serve to make a good tortoise meal, and I've been getting by this way.

Here is the thing: I still need more and more food. I have some family friends that own a nearby restaurant. Every other day they cut up iceberg and romaine lettuce for burgers and salads, and this creates quite a lot of scrap pieces to be thrown away. Just their leavings make up about a 40 pound case, and they throw it in the dumpster because they have no use for it. This equates to about three full five gallon buckets which will feed my herd for a day. Its the heals and leaves they can't use. They sometimes offer it to me, but I've been reluctant because iceberg lettuce just is not a good thing to be feeding to my tortoises on a regular basis. Right? But what if I added chopped up orchard grass hay, soaked Timothy hay horse pellets, calcium, dried leaves, and I've recently started using Purina Organic Lay Crumbles for chickens on the advice of Will. Looking at the list above. Adding calcium carbonate powder fixes the low calcium and the Ca to P ratio. Adding the hay fixes the lack of fiber, and adding the lay crumbles and dried leaves fixes the low nutritional value part, right?

I've started feeding this lettuce with all this "stuff" mixed in a couple of days a week and it seems to be working fine. Poops are solid and full of rough fiber, growth is slow and steady each month, and my adults lay well formed eggs that hatch into vigorous healthy babies. I also mix in an assortment of other stuff when available too, like grated pumpkin, assorted other grocery greens like kale, collards, cilantro, spring mix, arugula, etc..., cucumber peels and various weeds, leaves and flowers.

I will agree with anyone that plain iceberg lettuce is not a good tortoise food to be fed in bulk on a regular basis, but when used as a vehicle to deliver all the good stuff that I am mixing in, it suits me fine. I welcome debate or conversation on the subject. Suggestions for improvement are welcome too.


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## JoFisch (Jul 10, 2022)

This reminds me of the old fable Stone Soup. I am new to the tortoise world but have a significant amount of knowledge in regards to domestic mammalian nutrition. I see no real problem with your approach in as much as I know about your dedication to feeding your tortoises appropriately. I think where it gets dicey is giving newbies like me enough guidance as to how to appropriately amend the lettuce base to provide the right balance. Even though I have learned how to balance a ration to meet nutrient needs, I don’t want to.
I suppose the only other thing I would ask is if you are adding all of these other amendments to the mix and knowing that Iceberg lettuce really only adds water as a significant nutrient, do you need the iceberg at all? This is where it sounds like Stone Soup to me.


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## Tom (Jul 10, 2022)

JoFisch said:


> I suppose the only other thing I would ask is if you are adding all of these other amendments to the mix and knowing that Iceberg lettuce really only adds water as a significant nutrient, do you need the iceberg at all? This is where it sounds like Stone Soup to me.


Good point about sharing this info with newbies. @Yvonne G has specifically mentioned this several times. In her vast experience dealing with the public through her tortoise rescue, she noticed that any mention of lettuce would lead many people to focus on it and use too much of it, to the exclusion of better things. For many years, it has been standard to just say "no" to lettuce and move on, because of this observed phenomenon.

The above quote is also a good point and one I have considered. Here are my musings on the subject of "What is the benefit of using the lettuce at all? Why not just give them all the good stuff by itself?" Here are some benefits of lettuce as I see it:
1. As you mentioned, water. I live in a very dry climate and any way of getting water into them is a good thing. This might be less necessary in a warm rainy humid climate. (I'm looking at YOU Florida...)
2. It gives them a bolus to swallow.
3. While it will eventually break down into mostly water in the GI tract, it does give them the feeling of "bulk" in their stomach and leave more satisfied and feeling full.
4. Mouth, tongue, and neck exercise.
5. Palatability. They like lettuce. I've yet to meet a tortoise that doesn't. Having the lettuce mixed in makes them eat all the good stuff that they are less interested in. Many of my smaller or younger tortoises are not interested in walking up and eating plain dry hay, but mix that hay with some chopped up lettuce and they consume it with gusto.
6. Behavioral enrichment. One could argue that 2, 3, 4 and 5 all fall under this umbrella.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jul 10, 2022)

I think that makes perfect sense. Just like humans eating salads each day. The lettuce is filling. But the other ingredients offer nutrition.
However. A lot of times we see someone feeding Iceberg, they are also feeding other unhelpful or poor choices. So it often just falls under the same umbrella. "No Iceberg". Even though its not absolutely true. I think you're correct that it does no harm to include it as a filler.


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## TammyJ (Jul 10, 2022)

Lettuce not get carried away here.


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## Maro2Bear (Jul 10, 2022)

TammyJ said:


> Lettuce not get carried away here.


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## wellington (Jul 10, 2022)

I use romaine more the head lettuce. On very hot days I like to give a head or romaine. I usually do this after they have had time to graze some. If I have head lettuce left over that I don't want, I will feed it to my torts 
I have always used lettuce and will recommend romaine over head as part of a varied diet or if a tort sounds dehydrated. 
Newbies get too caught up on lettuce lettuce and more lettuce and all the bad info our there like how their two sulcatas love each other and never shows any bullying, etc, etc. Easier to take lettuce out of the equation altogether some times, especially those who want to defend it as that's all they will eat, has ever eaten, its their favorite or that's what the pet store or breeder recommended.


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## Maro2Bear (Jul 10, 2022)

wellington said:


> I use romaine more the head lettuce. On very hot days I like to give a head or romaine. I usually do this after they have had time to graze some. If I have head lettuce left over that I don't want, I will feed it to my torts
> I have always used lettuce and will recommend romaine over head as part of a varied diet or if a tort sounds dehydrated.
> Newbies get too caught up on lettuce lettuce and more lettuce and all the bad info our there like how their two sulcatas love each other and never shows any bullying, etc, etc. Easier to take lettuce out of the equation altogether some times, especially those who want to defend it as that's all they will eat, has ever eaten, its their favorite or that's what the pet store or breeder recommended.



Yep. We buy the large bags of Romaine from Sams Club & our Sully gets one head per day as a topper to whatever else I’m feeding. Grazing lawn grass & weeds, a pile of Japanese Stiltgrass, dandelion blossoms & leaves, mulberry tree limbs & leaves, banana leaves & a healthy pile of muscadine grape leaves. Occasional cup of regular Mazuri (less in Summer, more in Winter). Never any fruit.


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## JoFisch (Jul 10, 2022)

So as a newbie with a young tort, what ratio of lettuce is appropriate? 
I have a 1y old E. Hermanns. She/he is not a huge eater but seems to be growing fine (143g a few weeks ago). There will be days when Opal doesn’t seem to eat the greens and I figure like other animals, as long as she/he is not sick, she’ll eat when she wants to. She always eats Mazuri which she gets 2 times weekly with a generous pinch of herbal hay. Should I care that she refuses greens sometimes? I used to chop up her food bit I’ve been leaving it larger so she has to use her beak.


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## wellington (Jul 10, 2022)

JoFisch said:


> So as a newbie with a young tort, what ratio of lettuce is appropriate?
> I have a 1y old E. Hermanns. She/he is not a huge eater but seems to be growing fine (143g a few weeks ago). There will be days when Opal doesn’t seem to eat the greens and I figure like other animals, as long as she/he is not sick, she’ll eat when she wants to. She always eats Mazuri which she gets 2 times weekly with a generous pinch of herbal hay. Should I care that she refuses greens sometimes? I used to chop up her food bit I’ve been leaving it larger so she has to use her beak.


Personally, if you don't feed it either dont start or make sure is mixed with other greens, specially for babies. They can become picky and only want the romaine or iceburg/head lettuce.


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## Cathie G (Jul 10, 2022)

Tom said:


> As a tortoise food, what's wrong with iceberg lettuce? Or other lettuce types too?
> 1. Too low in calcium.
> 2. Low Ca : P ratio.
> 3. Low fiber.
> ...


I can't debate on this one because I've never met a bird, reptile, and etc that doesn't love it. Including myself.ok if it's such a bad thing why do they love it so much. It's kinda like a desert to top it all off and can even get sick animals eating again. When mixed with higher fiber foods it can keep stuff moving or get it started moving.


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## wellington (Jul 10, 2022)

Cathie G said:


> I can't debate on this one because I've never met a bird, reptile, and etc that doesn't love it. Including myself.ok if it's such a bad thing why do they love it so much. It's kinda like a desert to top it all off and can even get sick animals eating again. When mixed with higher fiber foods it can keep stuff moving or get it started moving.


They love it cuz it's like junk food to them like junk food is to most of us. Yummy


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## Cathie G (Jul 10, 2022)

wellington said:


> They love it cuz it's like junk food to them like junk food is to most of us. Yummy


I call it tortoise ice cream.  Not for a regular diet but a little bit won't hurt and romaine green leaves are recommended for me because they are so high in calcium. But most people like the hearts so you don't get much of that in the bags. So the tough green leaves for Sapphire and the hearts for me ok I like some junk food too. We share.


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## Tom (Jul 10, 2022)

wellington said:


> Newbies get too caught up on lettuce lettuce and more lettuce and all the bad info our there like how their two sulcatas love each other and never shows any bullying, etc, etc. Easier to take lettuce out of the equation altogether some times, especially those who want to defend it as that's all they will eat, has ever eaten, its their favorite or that's what the pet store or breeder recommended.


This reminds me of a very good point too. A lot of people get stuck on lettuce because their tortoise will eat it and it won't eat the better foods. Its easy, and who doesn't love feeding their tortoises and watching them eat? Two points about that:
1. This is often the fault of a lazy breeder who doesn't take the time to introduce the right foods when the baby first hatches and is learning what to eat. They buy some cheap readily available romaine to throw in and the new owner can sort it out later. Well it is exceedingly difficult and time consuming to do later when the tort is stuck on lettuce. This goes back to my recommendation of: "Buy from the RIGHT source."
2. This is also a training thing. I see it with dogs all the time. People try to feed their dogs a good diet and the dog trains them to give them what they want. I don't play that game. I put their food down for 5-10 minutes and the pick it back up whether they ate it or not. Next meal time same thing. They will eat when they are hungry. I hate it when people beg their dog to eat by adding favorite treats and repeatedly putting the food down and leaving it there all day. I don't beg my dogs to eat. I let them eat when its time to eat. If they want to be picky and skip it, that's is their prerogative. A hungry dog is not a picky dog. Of course I am talking about a normal healthy dog in a normal living situation. These same principals apply to tortoises. I'll put in some new and unfamiliar food and sometimes they choose to not eat it. I'm not starving them. There is a whole bowl of food sitting right there. Sometimes I will offer the same food for 3-4 days in a row until they eat it up. If they skip it on day one, they will usually eat some on day two. By day three, they pig out on it like usual. I don't beg them to eat. I offer food and they better eat it, or they will be hungry. A hungry tort is not a picky tort. In a relatively short period of time, this method creates a tortoise who is not picky and will eat nearly anything put in front of it. If the tortoise was started correctly and saw 30 different food items in its first 30 days of life, it works even better. I'm doing this right now as I type this with some baby tortoises that have never seen pumpkin leaves which I have in abundance right now.


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## Tom (Jul 10, 2022)

JoFisch said:


> So as a newbie with a young tort, what ratio of lettuce is appropriate?
> I have a 1y old E. Hermanns. She/he is not a huge eater but seems to be growing fine (143g a few weeks ago). There will be days when Opal doesn’t seem to eat the greens and I figure like other animals, as long as she/he is not sick, she’ll eat when she wants to. She always eats Mazuri which she gets 2 times weekly with a generous pinch of herbal hay. Should I care that she refuses greens sometimes? I used to chop up her food bit I’ve been leaving it larger so she has to use her beak.


I think you are doing it right. Put out good food and let the tortoise choose to eat it or not.

What ratio of lettuce? If you are adding in all the good stuff that is the subject of this thread, I think every other day is fine. If you are chopping it up and mixing it with new and better foods, I think you can use some daily to get them onto the weeds and leaves that they should be eating.

Where the problem lies is when a tortoise is eating nothing but plain lettuce every day and refuses to eat other better foods. Malnutrion will eventually set in.


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## OliveW (Jul 10, 2022)

I feel like I've wandered into the twilight zone here. 

I've spent the last two weeks coming to terms with the fact that I shouldn't buy my boy supermarket food. He is an excellent grazer and eats lots of healthy grasses and clover every day. Because it's been drilled into my head on this forum that should constitute 90% of his diet, I don't give him anything else except prickly pear a couple of times, from our own plants.

I see him eat/graze all the time, but have no way to determine HOW much he eats, therefore can't figure out how much 10% should be. I err on the side of caution by not giving him anything else most days. I was going to give him calcium but once again, didn't know what the appropriate amount should be, so changed my mind so he doesn't get too much. I know I'd totally screw up any kind of "mix" as far as percentages go.

He has declined grape leaves, hibiscus, and turnip greens that we already had growing on our property. The only thing he really likes is his grass and cucumbers - which he tried when he got into the garden by accident. And prickly pear cactus.

Today, I already had a disagreement with my husband, while at the store, over wanting to buy Tortimer lettuce. He things that if we don't actively feed him, that he's going to die, and won't take my word for it. Now I'm wondering if we SHOULD be feeding him more.

Tortimer gets fresh water every day, of course, and I just bought him a larger clay pot base that he can fit his whole body in. He gets daily soaks unless it's raining. I thought mother nature had the food covered.


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## Tom (Jul 10, 2022)

OliveW said:


> I feel like I've wandered into the twilight zone here.
> 
> I've spent the last two weeks coming to terms with the fact that I shouldn't buy my boy supermarket food. He is an excellent grazer and eats lots of healthy grasses and clover every day. Because it's been drilled into my head on this forum that should constitute 90% of his diet, I don't give him anything else except prickly pear a couple of times, from our own plants.
> 
> ...


The BEST way to feed them is the way you are feeding yours. Weeds, grasses, leaves, flowers and opuntia pads. Anyone who can meet their tortoise's needs with these kinds of "natural" food should absolutely do so. But imagine gathering 5 five gallon buckets of that type of food every single day. It would take hours and hours, and there simply isn't enough of that kind of stuff in the Southern CA desert in the heat of summer. I have several days of natural foods each week, but the lettuce WITH all the amendments allows me to get good food into them on the other days.

Keep trying to get yours to eat the other stuff by mincing it up and mixing it in with favorites. It take weeks or months. Go slow. Start small.


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## Turtulas-Len (Jul 10, 2022)

To me lettuces are an important part of my sulcatas diet especially during winter. But it has to be fed responsibly. Not for nutrition but for hydration. I live in a cold climate area of the US. My tortoise's live outside year round which means they spend a lot of time in their heated house's during winter and it's tuff to keep the humidity levels as high as it should be. I've had great success with growing smooth shelled sulcatas with the help of lettuce. I have 5 sulcatas and only 1 drinks from a water bowl regularly and he's the oldest at 26 years. The others haven't figured that part out yet. They will, I never saw Walker the oldest drink water until his 8th year of age. Now it's not uncommon for him to drink 1/2 to 3/4 of a gallon at one setting. I think internal hydration from moist or wet foods is at least if not more important than soakings to keeping tortoise shells smooth and a good growth rate. If in doubt check out Donald's and Thomas's threads, two of my younger sulcatas that haven't been forced soaked since 6 months of age and neither drinks from a water bowl yet.


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## jeff kushner (Jul 11, 2022)

Wow Tom, I'm not sure what you chose to do for a living but you do a tremendous amount of work for your guys, "The Other full time job". You must have one fantastic back yard, though prob not a low of flowers.....lol

My life experience and education have taught me that any non-toxic, fav food is fair game for vitamin or medicinal delivery. We all do it with our dogs & peanut butter or a slice of ham. 

You, more than 99% of us, know the balance point of where the iceberg begins to out-mass the good stuff, preventing the ingestion of enough mass to satisfy their nutritional reqs.


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## Thundersnow (Jul 13, 2022)

Tom said:


> As a tortoise food, what's wrong with iceberg lettuce? Or other lettuce types too?
> 1. Too low in calcium.
> 2. Low Ca : P ratio.
> 3. Low fiber.
> ...


Tom this is great info.Thanks a million!!!


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## Markw84 (Jul 13, 2022)

Tom said:


> As a tortoise food, what's wrong with iceberg lettuce? Or other lettuce types too?
> 1. Too low in calcium.
> 2. Low Ca : P ratio.
> 3. Low fiber.
> ...


Great post, Tom. I've been wanting to post something like this for some time.

I have been doing this - lettuce base to the meal - for years now. Just bite my tongue when I see references to NO LETTUCE here on the forum as did not want a debate.

Actually romaine and loose leaf lettuces are a very good food item. Loaded with many vitamins and minerals. As you mention, they lack enough fiber and romaine lacks enough calcium. Loose leaf lettuce actually has a good dalcium/phosphorus balance. I buy green leaf lettuce by the case each week as a base for many of the tortoise meals.

Here's a nutritional chart where I've selected a few of the evil lettuces and a few of the highly recommended items: (note how much vit A and C and low carb vs fiber lettuce is!)




Let's say we start with a pound of romaine and just look at the frequently mentioned poor calcium content vs phosphorus.

1 lb romaine = 163 mg calcium / 204mg Phos
We add 1/2 lb grape leaves. = 822mg cal / 206 Phos.

We chop up and mix into a nice salad that is now
1-1/4lb salad = 985mg cal / 410mg Phos
well over 2:1 cal/phos ratio in our salad.

But I mix in a lot of other things in a pound of lettuce. And normally at least an equal portion of grapes/mulberry/weeds to the lettuce for the day. Adding slices of cactus pads, lots of hibiscus and Rose of sharon flowers and leaves, etc, etc. The salad for the day is actually enhanced by the high vitamin and mineral content of the lettuce and the hydration of the great water content.

I will add I personally never use iceburg lettuce. But romaine and especially loose leaf is really a good added food. 

As we always say - variety and lots if different food items is key. So whether we say these lettuces are good or not, we still can have those who will be lazy and only dwell on one food item. So the variety is key is the important part, not to eliminate lettuce as a choice of one of the items.

With Kapidolo Farms dried goods this also becomes easier. Without water content the dried items are about 10 times more dense in their vitamins and minerals. So my above example would only need just under 1 ounce of dried grape leaves to do the same thing! And the dried items stick to the lettuce mix and is impossible for the tortoise to eat anything without also eating the dried bits stuck to it!

Here's a typical salad for the day...


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## Yvonne G (Jul 13, 2022)

As many of you know I was in the turtle/tortoise rescue business for many years, only giving it up last year.

When adopting out a tortoise and discussing what to feed it I NEVER included 'iceburg lettuce' in my repertoire. Reason being, the majority of the people heard 'iceburg lettuce' and then didn't hear anything else. After keeping their new tortoise for a while they would call me to discuss problems they were having and I learned that lettuce was the majority of what was being fed. It's quick and easy and most people have it on hand. But not good to feed as the main part of a diet.


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## Markw84 (Jul 13, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> As many of you know I was in the turtle/tortoise rescue business for many years, only giving it up last year.
> 
> When adopting out a tortoise and discussing what to feed it I NEVER included 'iceburg lettuce' in my repertoire. Reason being, the majority of the people heard 'iceburg lettuce' and then didn't hear anything else. After keeping their new tortoise for a while they would call me to discuss problems they were having and I learned that lettuce was the majority of what was being fed. It's quick and easy and most people have it on hand. But not good to feed as the main part of a diet.


I don't believe its just because all they hear is lettuce. I believe it is because in winter and many times of the year, there is no weeds, no grape leaves, no mulberry leaves. So what do they do?? I like to give them something they can do all year in any place so they don't have to figure somehting else out on their own when they find the recommended items are just not available.

Some people will simple hear what they want no matter what. We can't do anything for them. We can do something that works all the time for the remaining 95%!


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## Donna Albu (Jul 13, 2022)

Tom said:


> As a tortoise food, what's wrong with iceberg lettuce? Or other lettuce types too?
> 1. Too low in calcium.
> 2. Low Ca : P ratio.
> 3. Low fiber.
> ...


Just a side note - iceberg lettuce has no nutritional value for humans, either.


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## wellington (Jul 13, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> As many of you know I was in the turtle/tortoise rescue business for many years, only giving it up last year.
> 
> When adopting out a tortoise and discussing what to feed it I NEVER included 'iceburg lettuce' in my repertoire. Reason being, the majority of the people heard 'iceburg lettuce' and then didn't hear anything else. After keeping their new tortoise for a while they would call me to discuss problems they were having and I learned that lettuce was the majority of what was being fed. It's quick and easy and most people have it on hand. But not good to feed as the main part of a diet.


I feel this will and still goes on now. Even this thread is going to be a slippery slop in getting people thinking that iceburg is food to feed along with romaine and green leaf but nothing else in the mix. Newbies specially will not read all the posts and realize the ingredients Tom or Mark listed they add lettuce too is not just more lettuce.


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## Tom (Jul 13, 2022)

wellington said:


> I feel this will and still goes on now. Even this thread is going to be a slippery slop in getting people thinking that iceburg is food to feed along with romaine and green leaf but nothing else in the mix. Newbies specially will not read all the posts and realize the ingredients Tom or Mark listed they add lettuce too is not just more lettuce.


I don't think you give enough credit to your fellow tortoise keepers. especially the ones here on a forum like this. I think your view is skewed by what you see daily in the retail pet market. I lived that life for years too, so I understand. There will always be dummies who wish to remain willfully ignorant, but I think the majority are smart and have basic reading comprehension.


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## wellington (Jul 13, 2022)

Tom said:


> I don't think you give enough credit to your fellow tortoise keepers. especially the ones here on a forum like this. I think your view is skewed by what you see daily in the retail pet market. I lived that life for years too, so I understand. There will always be dummies who wish to remain willfully ignorant, but I think the majority are smart and have basic reading comprehension.


No Tom, my view is not skewed at all! I see it all the time right here on this forum. We have many on here that claim to be lurkers for months, sometimes years, claim to have read many threads. Then they finally join and are doing 90-100 % wrong. Many don't pay attention to the info being given in certain situations is species specific and use it for any species and yes, they will pick out what they want to hear/see. Even a few long time members have read it all and posted threads etc asked questions, seems to have gotten it. Then they need help and they can't answer any of the basic questions, temps, humidity, etc because they really didn't do what was suggested or they had researched on here, because they picked and choose what they wanted to here.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 13, 2022)

wellington said:


> No Tom, my view is not skewed at all! I see it all the time right here on this forum. We have many on here that claim to be lurkers for months, sometimes years, claim to have read many threads. Then they finally join and are doing 90-100 % wrong. Many don't pay attention to the info being given in certain situations is species specific and use it for any species and yes, they will pick out what they want to hear/see. Even a few long time members have read it all and posted threads etc asked questions, seems to have gotten it. Then they need help and they can't answer any of the basic questions, temps, humidity, etc because they really didn't do what was suggested or they had researched on here, because they picked and choose what they wanted to here.


And I saw it time and again with people who adopted tortoises from me. . . and I gave them care sheets, food lists. And even though my list of foods was headed by, "Choose several from this list and nix it up for variety. . ." I would frequently hear, " But lettuce is right there o your list. " This from people who only feed iceburg lettuce.


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## Cathie G (Jul 13, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> And I saw it time and again with people who adopted tortoises from me. . . and I gave them care sheets, food lists. And even though my list of foods was headed by, "Choose several from this list and nix it up for variety. . ." I would frequently hear, " But lettuce is right there o your list. " This from people who only feed iceburg lettuce.


I would hate to see their health if they can believe that is all that's needed.


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## ColumbiaJane (Jul 13, 2022)

My DT had to stay up all last winter because he was sick, and as Mark said, no leaves, no weeds…Fortunately, I had a good variety of dried stuff from kapidolo and made him lettuce wraps every day with romaine. He wintered well.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 13, 2022)

All of you who are saying lettuce is ok with additives is missing the point. I'm saying quite a few inexperienced keepers hear (or read) "iceburg lettuce" and they key in on that to the exclusion of other foods because it's quick and easy. Please don't discount my many years doing tortoise rescue and hearing many, many sad stories. There are lots of folks out there in the real world who don't do research or go online and find the forum. Folks who have taken a tortoise from the desert or inherited it when their mom died, who dumped their new animal out in the backyard and think it's fine to toss him some lettuce.


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## MenagerieGrl (Jul 13, 2022)

TammyJ said:


> Lettuce not get carried away here.


Badda BAM!


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## wellington (Jul 13, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> All of you who are saying lettuce is ok with additives is missing the point. I'm saying quite a few inexperienced keepers hear (or read) "iceburg lettuce" and they key in on that to the exclusion of other foods because it's quick and easy. Please don't discount my many years doing tortoise rescue and hearing many, many sad stories. There are lots of folks out there in the real world who don't do research or go online and find the forum. Folks who have taken a tortoise from the desert or inherited it when their mom died, who dumped their new animal out in the backyard and think it's fine to toss him some lettuce.


I sure hear ya Yvonne. We see it all the time still on here. The lettuce is easily found, cheap and everyone sells it. I can imagine the many times you put the work in to educate the adopters, give them all the info they needed, just for them to see the easy lettuces and forget the rest of the list.


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## Cathie G (Jul 13, 2022)

That's their fault when they read it but don't really read it. No lettuce isn't a Tortoise's whole diet. It's just a desert and some water.animal way if needed. I don't understand how those people could even come to that conclusion from what's been posted here if that person actually reads everything. And since you've tried to educate them that's all and the best you can do.


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## ColumbiaJane (Jul 13, 2022)

I understand what you are saying Yvonne, and have definitely come a long way from feeding green beans and squash (plus dandelion, mulberry and grape leaves) since joining TFN and have learned so much. I value the experience and wisdom presented here and advise any tortoise owner that I meet to join this forum and learn. Thank you all.


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## Tommo (Jul 14, 2022)

Tom said:


> As a tortoise food, what's wrong with iceberg lettuce? Or other lettuce types too?
> 1. Too low in calcium.
> 2. Low Ca : P ratio.
> 3. Low fiber.
> ...


We've had our tortoise for 45 years and don't know how old she was when she arrived. For years she only ate when the sun shines and then it was only the odd dandelion leaf and apple, but she does love the heads and stalks of dandelion. She has hardly grown or gained weight. I weigh and measure her every year before and after hibernation. This year she has gone mad eating lettuce, dandelions, weeds, tomatoes etc and is roaming around her pen, (paved area and lawn and rockery) and sometimes escapes to the vegetable garden, but I can't always find how she gets out but I suspect she climbs the foot high chainlink fence. She has loads of energy when the sun shines. This is why I discourage folk from getting a tortoise. It's not fair to keep them in this climate, and they are not a toy for children. Having said that I love her to bits and she comes running when I call, in warm weather.


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## wellington (Jul 14, 2022)

Tommo said:


> We've had our tortoise for 45 years and don't know how old she was when she arrived. For years she only ate when the sun shines and then it was only the odd dandelion leaf and apple, but she does love the heads and stalks of dandelion. She has hardly grown or gained weight. I weigh and measure her every year before and after hibernation. This year she has gone mad eating lettuce, dandelions, weeds, tomatoes etc and is roaming around her pen, (paved area and lawn and rockery) and sometimes escapes to the vegetable garden, but I can't always find how she gets out but I suspect she climbs the foot high chainlink fence. She has loads of energy when the sun shines. This is why I discourage folk from getting a tortoise. It's not fair to keep them in this climate, and they are not a toy for children. Having said that I love her to bits and she comes running when I call, in warm weather.


What kind of tortoise is it? Her diet has not been good and is one reason she would be undersized. Fruit should only be fed to very few species and tomatoes too. Lettuce with the diet she is getting isn't helpful. Her diet needs to greatly improve before I would give her any lettuce.


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## Tommo (Jul 14, 2022)

wellington said:


> What kind of tortoise is it? Her diet has not been good and is one reason she would be undersized. Fruit should only be fed to very few species and tomatoes too. Lettuce with the diet she is getting isn't helpful. Her diet needs to greatly improve before I would give her any lettuce.


What do you suggest?


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## wellington (Jul 14, 2022)

Tommo said:


> What do you suggest?


Start a new thread and give the details of the type of tort and its daily care, housing, and temps. Then ask how you can improve the diet


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## OliveW (Jul 15, 2022)

@Markw84 that is a beautiful looking salad! My Toritmer would love that. He loves brightly colored flowers and goes for them first thing. Do you grow enough flowers to support that every day? Or do you buy them somewhere? 

I already had Hibiscus when my boy showed up, but I need to get busy planting lots of more flowers for him. Between Tortimer eating them and my granddaughter picking them, we have zero flowers right now. 

@Yvonne G , extreme newbie here and accidental owner here. My boy will never see iceberg lettuce. Somewhere down the road, he may get some Romaine as a treat, but we thankfully have grass and his other basics growing here year round.  

I posted here the day I found this forum, and have not left since. The internet is full of well meaning, but very wrong, care sites written by owners who just know what their tortoises like, but not what's good for them. So much contradictory information out there. 

Some of us newbs take our commitment very seriously. I've even found a specialty vet in a nearby city, BEFORE I need them. Toritmer is going in for a wellness check in August, just to be established as a patient.


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## Maggie3fan (Jul 15, 2022)

ColumbiaJane said:


> My DT had to stay up all last winter because he was sick, and as Mark said, no leaves, no weeds…Fortunately, I had a good variety of dried stuff from kapidolo and made him lettuce wraps every day with romaine. He wintered well.


I found that thru the winter I fed my DT Spring mix reinforced w/mustard greens, collards, turnip grees and kale...he ate it good...


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## Maggie3fan (Jul 15, 2022)

Tommo said:


> We've had our tortoise for 45 years and don't know how old she was when she arrived. For years she only ate when the sun shines and then it was only the odd dandelion leaf and apple, but she does love the heads and stalks of dandelion. She has hardly grown or gained weight. I weigh and measure her every year before and after hibernation. This year she has gone mad eating lettuce, dandelions, weeds, tomatoes etc and is roaming around her pen, (paved area and lawn and rockery) and sometimes escapes to the vegetable garden, but I can't always find how she gets out but I suspect she climbs the foot high chainlink fence. She has loads of energy when the sun shines. This is why I discourage folk from getting a tortoise. It's not fair to keep them in this climate, and they are not a toy for children. Having said that I love her to bits and she comes running when I call, in warm weather.


Russian???


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## Markw84 (Jul 16, 2022)

OliveW said:


> @Markw84 that is a beautiful looking salad! My Toritmer would love that. He loves brightly colored flowers and goes for them first thing. Do you grow enough flowers to support that every day? Or do you buy them somewhere?


Yes. I have enough flowers to provide for all my tortoises all summer long with plenty left for drying for later.

Starting in late May through the end of September:
I have 2 hibiscus plants that produce on average 40 flowers a day.
2 Rose of Sharon (hibicus style flowers) that produce over 100 flowers per day
2 Rose of Sharon (Rose style flowers) that produce over 100 flowers per day
1 Lavatera that produces over 30 flowers per day.

I usually pick and chop up at least 20 of each variety for the salad for the day. I pick and throw whole flowers in the pens of my adult Burmese Stars and Galapagos as well.


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## Tom (Jul 16, 2022)

maggie3fan said:


> I found that thru the winter I fed my DT Spring mix reinforced w/mustard greens, collards, turnip greens and kale...he ate it good...


This is not so good. That is all grocery store greens with nothing added. They need more fiber. More variety.

I understand you are stuck with those items in winter, but amending grocery store foods is the whole point of this thread. Soaked chopped hay, soaked horse hay pellets, dried leaves, ZooMed pellets, Mazuri, herbal hay, grass, lay crumbles, etc...


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## Maggie3fan (Jul 17, 2022)

Tom said:


> This is not so good. That is all grocery store greens with nothing added. They need more fiber. More variety.
> 
> I understand you are stuck with those items in winter, but amending grocery store foods is the whole point of this thread. Soaked chopped hay, soaked horse hay pellets, dried leaves, ZooMed pellets, Mazuri, herbal hay, grass, lay crumbles, etc...


Sorry Tom...I don't have Gopherus agassizii in Oregon...that's what he was fed many years ago when I lived in Fresno...add Mazuri to that list...We didn't know any better then. Diets have improved immensely since then...


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## qiangzhu (Jul 17, 2022)

I provide the lettuce daily to my tortoises. But I will wet them and put a lot of dry food or powder from Kapidolo farm on top of it. I found this is one of the two ways I can make my tortoise to eat dry food from kapidolo farm. The other way is to mix the dry food with commercial tortoise food. But for the species which don’t eat the commercial tortoise food like the Russians which I bought from PetSmart or Petco( most likely WC), the lettuce is the only way to make them to eat the dry food.


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## Maggie3fan (Jul 18, 2022)

qiangzhu said:


> I provide the lettuce daily to my tortoises. But I will wet them and put a lot of dry food or powder from Kapidolo farm on top of it. I found this is one of the two ways I can make my tortoise to eat dry food from kapidolo farm. The other way is to mix the dry food with commercial tortoise food. But for the species which don’t eat the commercial tortoise food like the Russians which I bought from PetSmart or Petco( most likely WC), the lettuce is the only way to make them to eat the dry food.


Why only dry food...what do you mean by dry food? just nosy


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## Yvonne G (Jul 18, 2022)

maggie3fan said:


> Why only dry food...what do you mean by dry food? just nosy


They're talking about the dried foods like what you buy from Kapidolo Farms or Tortoise Supply. . . top dressing, additives


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## jsheffield (Jul 18, 2022)

Fantastic thread and discussion!

I feed all of my torts lettuce as a base every day... I just make sure to supplement the greens with other foodstuffs to increase/improve the nutritional and fiber content.

My Russian Creep gets some herbs and flowers and weeds and seaweed and opuntia flour with the lettuce; they also get a bit of butternut squash and mazuri 1-2 times a week.

The omnivorous tortoises get the same stuff as the Russians, with the addition of a bit of fruit, some mushrooms, and a bit of animal protein 1-2 times a week.

Jamie


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## shellcior (Jul 19, 2022)

Tom said:


> As a tortoise food, what's wrong with iceberg lettuce? Or other lettuce types too?
> 1. Too low in calcium.
> 2. Low Ca : P ratio.
> 3. Low fiber.
> ...


I keep a few heads of lettuce around for hydration for my Sulcata. The heat here near Houston has been record breaking so in the late afternoon (after he has grazed most of the day), I will give his the lettuce to hydrate him. I have water around but I have yet in his 13 years seen him drink but JUST IN CASE he gets the urge one day, I have water for him. For now, he gets a treat of the lettuce which he loves but only after he has eaten the grasses he is supposed to eat. He has also gotten to wear he enjoys me taking the water hose and spraying him down with cool water to cool him off. He used to hate it. He even sits out in the pouring rain when we get any as the heat has been so bad. So, he is starting to accept things he used to NOT tolerate. Great advice on using the lettuce as a vehicle to deliver all of the other good foods Sulcata's require and love. I am going to print this article out and try giving him a bowl with the lettuce and some of the other foods. I am the food ATM for my tortoise... lol


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## Sheldon the sulcata (Jul 19, 2022)

Tom said:


> As a tortoise food, what's wrong with iceberg lettuce? Or other lettuce types too?
> 1. Too low in calcium.
> 2. Low Ca : P ratio.
> 3. Low fiber.
> ...


I agree, Sheldon eats lettuce as a snack. I call it his Popsicle. Doesn't every kid get a Popsicle on hot days in the summer?


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## Maggie3fan (Jul 19, 2022)

Mary Knobbins loves the sprinkler...lol


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## Meena (Jul 19, 2022)

shellcior said:


> I keep a few heads of lettuce around for hydration for my Sulcata. The heat here near Houston has been record breaking so in the late afternoon (after he has grazed most of the day), I will give his the lettuce to hydrate him. I have water around but I have yet in his 13 years seen him drink but JUST IN CASE he gets the urge one day, I have water for him. For now, he gets a treat of the lettuce which he loves but only after he has eaten the grasses he is supposed to eat. He has also gotten to wear he enjoys me taking the water hose and spraying him down with cool water to cool him off. He used to hate it. He even sits out in the pouring rain when we get any as the heat has been so bad. So, he is starting to accept things he used to NOT tolerate. Great advice on using the lettuce as a vehicle to deliver all of the other good foods Sulcata's require and love. I am going to print this article out and try giving him a bowl with the lettuce and some of the other foods. I am the food ATM for my tortoise... lol



I was wondering this EXACT thing! For hydration reasons would it be OK? I am 100% newbie to all things tortoise. But I am a little nuts on research. When our breeder saw her enclosure he said "this is one of the best enclosures I've seen". So I take it all very seriously!

That said, I follow all his instructions to a T and read up in here daily. As she's only 4 months old, and does not drink during her soak times. I am wondering if after her big morning breakfast feed (of all the healthy greens collard, dandy, endive, radicchio, etc (our breeder doesn't even recommend any fruit the first 2 years), when she comes out later in the evening to graze on bits and pieces she left behind, would it not be OK to _*at this point only*_ to provide a high water content lettuce like iceberg? For hydration reasons? I am so curious if this spoils her towards other greens?


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## Turtulas-Len (Jul 19, 2022)

Meena said:


> I was wondering this EXACT thing! For hydration reasons would it be OK? I am 100% newbie to all things tortoise. But I am a little nuts on research. When our breeder saw her enclosure he said "this is one of the best enclosures I've seen". So I take it all very seriously!
> 
> That said, I follow all his instructions to a T and read up in here daily. As she's only 4 months old, and does not drink during her soak times. I am wondering if after her big morning breakfast feed (of all the healthy greens collard, dandy, endive, radicchio, etc (our breeder doesn't even recommend any fruit the first 2 years), when she comes out later in the evening to graze on bits and pieces she left behind, would it not be OK to _*at this point only*_ to provide a high water content lettuce like iceberg? For hydration reasons? I am so curious if this spoils her towards other greens?


At 4 months old if you are feeding the proper food items I would hold off on feeding iceberg. Especially if your enclosure is closed to hold moisture in with a bowl big enough for her to self soak.


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## Tom (Jul 19, 2022)

jsheffield said:


> Fantastic thread and discussion!
> 
> I feed all of my torts lettuce as a base every day... I just make sure to supplement the greens with other foodstuffs to increase/improve the nutritional and fiber content.
> 
> ...


That's creepy...


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## Tom (Jul 19, 2022)

Meena said:


> I was wondering this EXACT thing! For hydration reasons would it be OK? I am 100% newbie to all things tortoise. But I am a little nuts on research. When our breeder saw her enclosure he said "this is one of the best enclosures I've seen". So I take it all very seriously!
> 
> That said, I follow all his instructions to a T and read up in here daily. As she's only 4 months old, and does not drink during her soak times. I am wondering if after her big morning breakfast feed (of all the healthy greens collard, dandy, endive, radicchio, etc (our breeder doesn't even recommend any fruit the first 2 years), when she comes out later in the evening to graze on bits and pieces she left behind, would it not be OK to _*at this point only*_ to provide a high water content lettuce like iceberg? For hydration reasons? I am so curious if this spoils her towards other greens?


What species?

Best to use other foods that are more natural. When other foods are not available in climates with snow for months and grocery store foods are necessary, then the "lettuce" and other greens should be amended. I'm using it because:
1. Its being given to me for free, although all the supplemental foods I'm adding to it are not free.
2. I'm having trouble amassing enough "natural" type foods to feed my herd every day.
3. It will be thrown in the garbage and wasted if I don't make use of it.

If your baby tortoise is soaked daily, kept in a humid closed chamber, and eating all those other good foods, there is no need to feed any lettuce at all. Better, when possible, to use weeds, leaves, succulents, flowers, and grasses for grass eating species whenever possible. Any type of store bought greens are a last resort for me, and I try to keep it to a minimum even with all the supplemental foods added.

If you must use grocery store foods for a single tortoise, or just a few small ones, It is best to use, endive, escarole, arugula, cilantro, kale, collards, etc... and avoid lettuce. The point of this thread is that when bulk is needed and other things are not available, lettuce can be used with enough "good stuff" added to it.


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## Meena (Jul 19, 2022)

Tom said:


> What species?
> 
> Best to use other foods that are more natural. When other foods are not available in climates with snow for months and grocery store foods are necessary, then the "lettuce" and other greens should be amended. I'm using it because:
> 1. Its being given to me for free, although all the supplemental foods I'm adding to it are not free.
> ...



Ah ok. She's a baby cherry head. Just wanted to make sure I do right by her. She never drinks which made me wonder about lettuce. But she is soaked daily 15 minutes, and her enclosure is never below 70-95% range.


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