# Under 4inches torts sold in stores (like 2/2.5 inch not 3.5/3.8 inch)



## Holly'sMom (Nov 5, 2016)

I've always been under the impression tortoises sold under 4inches in a pet store was illegal. A friend ended up buying a leopard tortoise that is 2.5 inches at best (I'd actually called the week before asking the owners in they had any small 4-5in leopards, was told they may have 1, she got the only one they had. They are not breeders). Anyways my friend posted pics on FB of a tiny leopard in an aquarium full of hay red lights and a lot more "NOOOOOO" issues. I contacted her immediately! She fixed the issues along with researching and ready/using care guides from here. She was given a HAND WRITTEN care sheet on note book paper missing info on humidity, soaking, temps, etc and most of all SALMONELLA (never mentioned in the store to her either) something she needed to know when purchasing a pet for her children at a pet store. They also originally tried to sell her a sully hatchling but she recognized the name from my posts and knew it would become large, this was down played w the leopard. The store has a rep for selling sick animals and not proper care I never believed it until this as I've always had a good relationship with them w my "exotic animals". Long story short a 2-2.5 inch leopard was sold to a Mom of 4 who had no clue and over paid by hundreds only to have the tortoise die 2 days ago. and yes she should have researched before but she did correct everything w in a 24 HR period and did soaks from the day one. She's a mess over this and it had become a good part of her life (especially since we constantly sent messages and pics daily dreaming of breeding and making a leocata lol) but again my point ARE PET STORES allowed to sell hatchlings or tortoises under 4inches- we've found a good bit of law's stating NO but then I know they're sold online and in other pet stores( again I searched around to find the stores selling ). 
https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=1240.62


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## Yvonne G (Nov 5, 2016)

The FDA is responsible for enforcing the 4" rule. Have you ever seen a FDA employee in any pet store in any city in any state in the U.S. Just sayin'

Pet stores are in business to sell things and make a profit. It is up the the purchaser to beware and do their homework prior to buying.


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## Holly'sMom (Nov 5, 2016)

I'm not trying to "call out" any pet stores. But she's hoping they'll be more reasonable w replacing or refunding her for the tortoise as she can get one 1/2 price online and I truly believe that she didn't have anything to do w death. We all know hatchlings are fragile and the fact they know I own hatchlings and would've been weird about selling to me makes me also wonder (they told me they may have one but I stopped in the day after she bought hers the owner said the only one was sold so I know it was not size)


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## dmmj (Nov 5, 2016)

the 4-inch law is a federal law not very high on the government's priority list. Yes it is illegal for pet stores to sell but try to get someone from the FED to go in there


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## Holly'sMom (Nov 6, 2016)

I'm not really trying to get the store in trouble although I'm concerned for future torts there. I'd sent them care sheets after I'd seen hers/her enclosure(thankfully the day she'd purchased so she was able to fix ). The owners have always been good to me and even answered/helped w animals they didn't sell me so I was shocked at this but I'm hoping since she only had the leopard hatchling less than a month and was correctly caring for it despite the instructions and items they had sold her, that using this point may help her get a replacement or recover the money for the tortoise if it doesn't w in a month is not enough, or part of the $ so she can replace from a reputable breeder w possibly a well started, yearling or possibly older tort. That's partly why I haven't named the store or owners. They're well known at Ohio Pa Tenn and other states from booths at shows also as knowledgeable experts with a number of different animals/reptiles. But at the same time I do feel there was negligence in selling a hatchling as a pet to persons who made clear they had no experience with any size torts let alone a hatchling than giving incorrect items and care info. But in fairness it was not the owners but a clerk... I've had a few people tell me this 4inch law only applies to turtles even though I'm reading its torts also(w pet stores). I did contact the FDA/Dept of agriculture here and they said that this isn't something that's reported a lot and they would have to investigate needing the business name etc so I haven't returned the email.. If the tortoise hadn't died I'd never have thought twice past the message I'd sent to the owner with correct printable care sheets (taken from here). But I'm just at a loss at what to do. I don't want to get these people in trouble especially when you can buy a hatchling off many people at shows and online. I bought a hatchling online as a pet from a breeder and he knew it was my first tortoise but I had really thought and researched before hand and she didn't it was an impulse buy for her kids BUT pet store owners should realize the "cute tortoise in the window" w kids/moms and with the fragility of hatchlings I just think that tortoise should never have been sold to an inexperienced woman/Kids in a pet store. At least online with most breeders youll see the care sheets or they come with them.. I know mine did...but my first thought was to find out if it is legal to sell 2-3inch torts in a pet store.


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## Holly'sMom (Nov 6, 2016)

The reason I contacted the agriculture department was because they were the ones who had the salmonella and the "4 inch law" on their website, the FDA I have not gotten a response from.


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## Holly'sMom (Nov 6, 2016)

This is the email I received. Should I contact someone else? And should I just turn them in? I mean reasonably they're sold everywhere online and It is true people should research before buying but that's just not always the case realistically. And with the fragility of hatchlings, the salmonella selling one to a mom and kids who've made it clear they have no experience or knowledge what so ever just doesn't seem right. if they had even gave her a care sheet that didn't have misinformation and missing major care like soakings, sold her correct enclosure/accessories or told her about salmonella( since her young kids were present) I wouldn't say anything.... I just didn't know what the law was, I'm upset for my friend and worried because they have sully red foot and other hatchlings listed on their FB currently and more in store. (also we are in Pennsylvania so large species of tortoises like sullys and leopards are extremely rare in pet stores here because our weather isn't the best for them).


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## Holly'sMom (Nov 6, 2016)

This is a few of the torts they have "looking for new homes" just on their FB page... I blocked out the store name


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## Holly'sMom (Nov 8, 2016)

dmmj said:


> the 4-inch law is a federal law not very high on the government's priority list. Yes it is illegal for pet stores to sell but try to get someone from the FED to go in there


Thanks I was sent another email today as it went as followed
I couldn't fit this into a screen shot it's an email I got today. 

I am the regional veterinarian. The “turtle law” is under the FDA regulation , see below. So PDA cannot enforce this law, but you can contact the Pittsburg FDA office.
Food and Drug Administration Regulation Excerpts from 21 CFR Ch. 1 (4-1-91 Edition) pages 550-552

Definition. As used in this section the term "turtles" includes all animals commonly known as turtles, tortoises, terrapins, and all other animals of the order Testudinata, class Reptilia, except marine species (families Dermachelidae and Chelonidae).
· Sales; general prohibition. Except as otherwise provided in this section, viable turtle eggs and live turtles with a carapace length of less than 4 inches shall not be sold, held for sale, or offered for any other type of commercial or public distribution.

· Exceptions. The provisions of this section are not applicable to:

(1) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs for bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibitional purposes, other than use as pets. 
(2) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs not in connection with a business. 
(3) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and turtle eggs intended for export only, provided that the outside of the shipping package is conspicuously labeled "for export only." 
(4) Marine turtles excluded from this regulation under the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section and eggs of such turtles.
Erin Moore


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## Tom (Nov 8, 2016)

What you and your friend are running into there is typical pet store misinformation. Most pet stores across the country do not know how to properly care for tortoises, give bad advice, and sell dangerous or useless products.

Tortoises like sulcatas and leopards have been cared for all wrong for decades. The initial care info from decades ago was wrong and based on incorrect assumptions about the lives of these animals in the wild. This incorrect care has been taught to several generations now, including mine, and we here at TFO have been fighting it for years and trying to educate the world. Breeders, vets, "experts", and books have it all wrong. I used to have it all wrong too, until me and several other people figured out what was going on. To this day most of the experienced long term breeders still don't get it and don't realize what is going on.

Turning those people in will only serve to insure that you and others will not be able to buy hatchlings in the future. It is a stupid, unnecessary law, and many people have been working very hard to over turn it for decades. Helping the government enforce stupid unnecessary laws is never a good thing.

Instead spend your time and effort educating them. Try to educate the breeder they bought the baby from.

Salmonella is not a big concern with turtles and tortoises. The risk is blown way out of proportion. Simple hygiene, like washing hands after handling is enough to prevent infection. People are at greater risk from uncooked chicken.

Finally, babies are not any more "delicate" than adults if they are set up correctly. Because of their smaller size, there is a corresponding smaller margin of error. A few nights in the wrong conditions is survivable for a 10 pound adult. A few nights in the wrong conditions for a baby is enough to seal their fate and kill them, depending on the circumstances.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Nov 8, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> The FDA is responsible for enforcing the 4" rule. Have you ever seen a FDA employee in any pet store in any city in any state in the U.S. Just sayin'
> 
> Pet stores are in business to sell things and make a profit. It is up the the purchaser to beware and do their homework prior to buying.



County Health officials and in California Cal Fish and Game have written citations. Many 'authorities' can write citations if they find the need to.


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## Holly'sMom (Nov 8, 2016)

Tom said:


> What you and your friend are running into there is typical pet store misinformation. Most pet stores across the country do not know how to properly care for tortoises, give bad advice, and sell dangerous or useless products.
> 
> Tortoises like sulcatas and leopards have been cared for all wrong for decades. The initial care info from decades ago was wrong and based on incorrect assumptions about the lives of these animals in the wild. This incorrect care has been taught to several generations now, including mine, and we here at TFO have been fighting it for years and trying to educate the world. Breeders, vets, "experts", and books have it all wrong. I used to have it all wrong too, until me and several other people figured out what was going on. To this day most of the experienced long term breeders still don't get it and don't realize what is going on.
> 
> ...


That was one of the big things I was trying to make clear, I'm not turning them in. I known both the owners and the buyer personally. She's hoping by bringing this up she may get some money back and when posting possibly a replacement tortoise from them but as far actually reporting them i don't plan to turn them in. And I don't think she is either. That's also why I was trying to get the info on the law's wo giving a store name. They do a lot of shows and they've sold adult Sulcatas and leopards for a long time but I did immediately send them correct care sheets I copied from here when I'd seen the enclosure and care sheet she received. I did not see the enclosure at the store until a few days ago... They aren't cared for correctly in store, they've got 5/6 different species in a tank w hay and a water dish all eating only those orange soft food (I have it but can't think f the name). it's just sad. This thread wasn't started to get anyone in trouble but to just understand what the law was as someone on FB said it was only turtles and hopefully my friend could use the law to her advantage( as a threat not as turning them in ) because like you said one or two nights could cause the death. We had her enclosure replaced the following am but they sold her the original enclosure and she's only asking for the tort price or the price of a replacement from one of the reputable breeders we've found. She's decided she didn't want to chance a replacement from them if possible. Sadly educating them or even attempting to is always met w hostility. I've known these owners since I was a kid, my brother had worked closely w them when he had a small reptile store (online/booths). Over the years a few animals they've gotten in and either my brother or myself would point something out sometimes critical and be shut down immediately. They are big on being known as "experts on reptiles and birds". Even with their bird breeding program being new. I'm just upset they took advantage of my friend and it's not the first time I've heard about sick animals or animals dying not too long after leaving the store.. but she shares blame for not researching until AFTER I had told her that the enclosure was bad and sent the care sheet here. No one is denying that and that's why she's not asking for a full refund. Again my part in this is only trying to gain info, I'd taken some comments as encouragement to report them and I did at one point wonder if I should but decided not too, hence why all emails did not include the stores name.


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## Holly'sMom (Nov 8, 2016)

Holly'sMom said:


> That was one of the big things I was trying to make clear, I'm not turning them in. I known both the owners and the buyer personally. She's hoping by bringing this up she may get some money back and when posting possibly a replacement tortoise from them but as far actually reporting them i don't plan to turn them in. And I don't think she is either. That's also why I was trying to get the info on the law's wo giving a store name. They do a lot of shows and they've sold adult Sulcatas and leopards for a long time but I did immediately send them correct care sheets I copied from here when I'd seen the enclosure and care sheet she received. I did not see the enclosure at the store until a few days ago... They aren't cared for correctly in store, they've got 5/6 different species in a tank w hay and a water dish all eating only those orange soft food (I have it but can't think f the name). it's just sad. This thread wasn't started to get anyone in trouble but to just understand what the law was as someone on FB said it was only turtles and hopefully my friend could use the law to her advantage( as a threat not as turning them in ) because like you said one or two nights could cause the death. We had her enclosure replaced the following am but they sold her the original enclosure and she's only asking for the tort price or the price of a replacement from one of the reputable breeders we've found. She's decided she didn't want to chance a replacement from them if possible. Sadly educating them or even attempting to is always met w hostility. I've known these owners since I was a kid, my brother had worked closely w them when he had a small reptile store (online/booths). Over the years a few animals they've gotten in and either my brother or myself would point something out sometimes critical and be shut down immediately. They are big on being known as "experts on reptiles and birds". Even with their bird breeding program being new. I'm just upset they took advantage of my friend and it's not the first time I've heard about sick animals or animals dying not too long after leaving the store.. but she shares blame for not researching until AFTER I had told her that the enclosure was bad and sent the care sheet here. No one is denying that and that's why she's not asking for a full refund. Again my part in this is only trying to gain info, I'd taken some comments as encouragement to report them and I did at one point wonder if I should but decided not too, hence why all emails did not include the stores name.


Also she received something saying that anyone selling needed to provide salmonella info . That maybe a turtle thing? I'll have to see if she can send it to me. I didn't find anything like that myself.


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## Theo.tortoise.lover.7 (Dec 5, 2016)

I got my baby leo when it was UNDER 2 inches. The breeder is a reputable breeder and my tortoise came, and still is, healthy, happy, and eating and growing well. It was no under-the-radar deal. (If you would like to know where, PM me, I would be more than happy to help  ) In fact, many places that sell baby tortoises, whether it's a pet store, online store, or breeder, will sell them under four inches, just like mine. It is technically illegal, but I have never seen or heard of any issues with the law. Even at huge reptile expos such as the Pomona Super Show, one of, if not, the largest in the country, still sells them that small. You would think that if the law mattered that much or the government cared that much, it would be the easiest place to target the issue of the tiny tortoises  . I got my first tortoise, a young Russian, from a booth at the show that was exactly four inches. But, prior to that purchase, I was about to purchase a baby, about an inch in length, from another breeder and then I was concerned that it was illegal. However, there was no issue at the show with any of the baby tortoises. Long story short, like @Yvonne G said, they really don't care that much, obviously. And, if they did, they would do something about it. A reptile expo with hundreds upon hundreds of baby tortoises is the perfect place for the government to enforce a law and crack down on baby tortoises if they really care. I also think however, that the majority of people that go to a reptile expo to buy a tortoise, for say, are not new to tortoises. They most likely understand the law and what not. They are also probably more responsible and are going to a reputable breeder at a show rather than a pet store. This makes me believe that the people going to the shows also have a better idea of the care of the tortoises and aren't buying a bunch of baby tortoises for children as pets. The law is in place so that children can't get hurt or sick for the most part. I am not saying that this is always the case, but from what I have seen, this does tend to be. I think that the real issue is in the pet stores like you mentioned.


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## ZEROPILOT (Dec 5, 2016)

Here it's common to see tiny turtles with a sign that reads "For educational reasons only".
Right next to the 10" clear plastic turtle enclosure with the ramp with the plastic palm tree. Sometimes there are not only sliders but soft shells and snapping turtles.
Just what a four year old needs. A snapping turtle.
I'll bet that no more than 2-5% of those poor turtles ever make it to an adult size.


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## Holly'sMom (Dec 6, 2016)

I found out it is illegal to sell in stores although I DID NOT turn them in to anyone the women who's tort died I guess may have but not to the USDA just the humane society or something to that effect. Thanks for everyone's reply as I was just curious on the law. My tortoises are all from breeders and all healthy and happy


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## Mr Buster (Dec 10, 2016)

I know a local pet store where it is common for people to walk in with a crate of some reptile or other and just sell it off the street. Of course in big box stores like petsmart and petco their distribution channels wont include illegal reptiles. I suspect the practice to could encourage theft or improper animal milling.

As for the 4" law, I think it is bad. What we have now is wild caught animals with parasites that were doing fine in the wild cross contaminating etc. If the babies could be sold you would have animals without the parasites and diseases that are social with humans. It is very stressful on wild caught animals many of whom were doing just fine before being fetched up in a pet store.


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## tortoise5643 (Dec 10, 2016)

Sucks that the pet store is uneducated. But, the 4" law is a load of crap and shouldn't exist, in my opinion.


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## Holly'sMom (Dec 11, 2016)

I think it's good for stores w parents buying them for small children and not even googling what they need. I don't agree with selling a 2in hatchling for the price of an adult lol but I don't think they should get in trouble for it. The store was turned in not by me but by the girl who's tortoise died. She turned them into the humane society or something lol but thanks for the info and options on this


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## Holly'sMom (Dec 11, 2016)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Here it's common to see tiny turtles with a sign that reads "For educational reasons only".
> Right next to the 10" clear plastic turtle enclosure with the ramp with the plastic palm tree. Sometimes there are not only sliders but soft shells and snapping turtles.
> Just what a four year old needs. A snapping turtle.
> I'll bet that no more than 2-5% of those poor turtles ever make it to an adult size.


See that's what I've heard but they're selling the enclosures at triple the price and you get the turtle free. And that was my point w the law, my friend did everything right (after she learned the store sold her everything wrong) but hers died. She should've researched it some before buying but sadly most parents don't. Even i did a TON of research and I still have a ton of questions on here.


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## GGboy17 (Apr 11, 2017)

Really? I bought my Sulcata from a pet store (it was a nice independently owned one) that was 2.3 inches. Would have beeen nice if he were to all ready be 4 inches Lol.


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## Big Charlie (Apr 12, 2017)

GGboy17 said:


> Really? I bought my Sulcata from a pet store (it was a nice independently owned one) that was 2.3 inches. Would have beeen nice if he were to all ready be 4 inches Lol.


That was about the size of my sulcata when I bought him from an independent pet store. I'm glad he was that little and I'm glad I have pictures of him from that time.


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## Tom (Apr 13, 2017)

GGboy17 said:


> Really? I bought my Sulcata from a pet store (it was a nice independently owned one) that was 2.3 inches. Would have beeen nice if he were to all ready be 4 inches Lol.



In a humid closed chamber with a good diet and daily soaks, it would take about 6-8 months to grow one to 4".

How much money would you be willing to pay for a sulcata tortoise that size? You bought one soon after it hatched and paid whatever it cost at your store. How much should a breeder be paid for investing 6-8 months of their time raising a baby?


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## GGboy17 (Apr 14, 2017)

For a healthy 6-8 inch Sulcata I would say $150-$200


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## Tom (Apr 14, 2017)

GGboy17 said:


> For a healthy 6-8 inch Sulcata I would say $150-$200



That is what most retail stores charge for a hatchling.

This is why there is no incentive for anyone to put in the time and work to raise them to 4" before sale. I'd do it if we started talking somewhere in the $500-600 range, but no one will pay that much.

Think about it though... To get them to 6-8 inches is going to be about 14-18 months of daily work. That is 540 days of feeding, heating, cleaning, chaining waters, soaking, etc… $150 divided by 540 days comes to .28 cents a day. You'd have to sell 100 per day to make $28, and that doesn't count any of your expenses for food, supplements, bulbs, housing, substrate, electricity, etc. If I sold 1000, every single day, I could make $280/day, but how could anyone care for 1000 babies in a day every day. But it would 1000 babies for each day so you'd be constantly rotating through 100s of thousands of babies. No way to make money there. It would cost money to sell them at that size and price. A lot of money.

Anyhow, there is the issue with making people sell them at a larger size. Its a lot of time and expense to get them that big, but there is no reward for it at the end.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 15, 2017)

GGboy17 said:


> For a healthy 6-8 inch Sulcata I would say $150-$200



Yes, maybe for you, the buyer, but it's not worth the breeder's time and energy to feed and house and pay electricity to raise one up to 4" then take a loss to sell it at $150 to $200.


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## Loni (Jul 1, 2018)

Yvonne G said:


> The FDA is responsible for enforcing the 4" rule. Have you ever seen a FDA employee in any pet store in any city in any state in the U.S. Just sayin'
> 
> Pet stores are in business to sell things and make a profit. It is up the the purchaser to beware and do their homework prior to buying.


I thought the 4" limitation was for imports only?


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## Loni (Jul 1, 2018)

I wish I was in the States, looking for a tortoise in Canada, the prices have been 4 or 5 times that,


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## daniellenc (Jul 2, 2018)

You act as though woman with children can’t handle raising a hatchling. It seems ironic since all 4 of hers were hatchlings at one point and still alive! Pet stores should have to provide better care sheets and information but ultimately it was your friends responsibility to research prior to choosing where to purchase her Leo. Obviously this animal wasn’t healthy at purchase but again a little research would have tipped her off. Hopefully she joins here and purchases one from a reputable breeder soon. The whole situation is sad but ultimately it wasn’t the torts size that lead to death but rather poor care and untreated illness.


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## Toddrickfl1 (Jul 2, 2018)

The 4" law is a joke. I've never met or ever even heard of someone contacting salmonella from a turtle or tortoise, but I see people contracting it from lettuce, poultry, and prepackaged foods on the news all the time.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 2, 2018)

Loni said:


> I thought the 4" limitation was for imports only?


The 4" rule pertains to businesses selling turtles and tortoises. Any BUSINESS , not hobbyists.


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