# My two sulcatas like being together, should I still separate them?



## NewTortEnthusiast (Jul 21, 2018)

Hello all, I'm here asking for anyone's opinion on if I should separate my two 2 year old sulcata tortoises, even though they really love being around each other.

I've had them for almost a week now, I purchased them from my close neighbor who gave me a ridiculously low price for them. I'm somewhat new to caring for sulcatas, but have had experience owning older tortoises. The breeder (of my knowledge) raises them dry and gives them a poor diet. I chose Steve and George out of a group of 14 he had. They are small for their age and I am currently working on building them enclosed chambers. 

The man I bought them from, aside from his poor raising techniques, had done little to organize and separate his tortoises. I have since told him all this and he has acknowledged his mistakes. He is not an old man that has been doing this for years and years, he told me this was his second batch he was selling and was more than happy to change his enclosures (regardless of him being a genuine tortoise lover or him wanting to make more money) anyway future hatchlings will get better lives.

However their past lives were with their previous owner, Steve and George are inseparable. They have been walking together, sleeping together, basking together, and have even aided each other with obstacles like when either of them have gotten stuck the other would push against them and free them from the tight spot they were in. They have been doing this all on their own accord. Prior to beginning construction of 1 or 2 enclosed chambers for higher humidity to help with their pyramiding, I kept them in a temporary 15ft X 30ft walled area with many edible plants, plenty of sun and basking areas as well as places to go off into the shade and sleep.

Should I separate them and build 2 enclosed chambers, or build a somewhat larger one to accomodate both? I feel that they would be sad if they were separated. I am aware this is unusal behavior but still.


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## Tom (Jul 21, 2018)

They don't "like" each other, and they will not be "sad" if separated. They are also not "helping" each other.

Everything you just described is tortoise aggression. This is one tortoise telling the other to: "Get out of my territory!" You need to separate them ASAP.

They are solitary animals in the wild. They do not like, need or want any company. They don't make friends and they don't get lonely. Living as a pair is highly stressful for both of them and the chronic stress can make them sick and eventually kill them. Groups of juveniles usually do okay together, but not pairs. Pairs are much too personal. One is dominant and one is subordinate, and neither of them want the other one around.


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## TechnoCheese (Jul 21, 2018)

Sadly, Tom is correct. “Cuddling” and sleeping together is one tortoise trying to stress the other out of its territory, and “following” is really chasing. Definitely not affectionate.


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## wellington (Jul 21, 2018)

Yes, separate them. What you are describing is bullying. You are putting human words and thoughts too them. Tortoises don't help each other. They ram each other. An experienced person might be able too keep two together in a very large yard size like a 1/2 to 1 acre with lots of sight barriers and hides, etc. that experience though teaches them what bullying is and they don't put human emotions etc to it.


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## NewTortEnthusiast (Jul 21, 2018)

Thank you for adjusting my view on them. It makes so much sense now. I will separate them once my first enclosed chamber is built at least. I know I will now face even more difficulties, like attempting to explain to my parents why they HAVE to be separated. They are 100% supportive of me taking on such a huge challenge raising these two, along with dealing with their pyramiding.


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## Tom (Jul 21, 2018)

I'm glad you are willing to take advice, and it really helps to have supportive parents.


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## NewTortEnthusiast (Jul 21, 2018)

Thank you all, I will do my best for Steve and George.


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## teresaf (Jul 22, 2018)

One of the ways tortoises try and deal with competition in their territory is to chase another tortoise away (or flip them over) so they have all the food and breeding rights in the area...

I remember the video on YouTube where everyone thought it was so sweet and cute that a tortoise was "helping" his overturned "friend" get flipped back over because he was on his back.....

Soooo...in all actuality what was happening was he was trying to flip him....again. 

Tortoises are relatively stupid. If they see another tortoise and that tortoise doesn't run away, they'll flip them. That's all they know to do. They don't realize the other tortoise isn't running away because it CAN'T... It just goes with its instincts and tries to flip him.

Unfortunately they need separated as soon as possible. They can really hurt each other. If one of them gets turned over underneath the heat lamp it could very easily die. 

I have a pair of Burmese mountain tortoises that never showed any signs of chasing each other or any aggressiveness at all and then one day when they were eating one of them reached over with an open mouth and was going to bite to the others face and luckily I was there to stop him. He could easily have blinded the other in that one moment...


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## NewTortEnthusiast (Jul 22, 2018)

I will separate them tomorrow. My parents are giving me a spending limit of $400 for their enclosed chambers. I believe that is more than enough to build them with the idea I have. It is similar to a very recent post by another individual who decided to use a bookshelf from Ikea. Buying 2 large yet rather cheap bookcases plus replacing the backing for something more waterproof and tough, wood to make the lid to close it, along with a sheet of acrylic for each will be the bulk of my project. I intend to use no UVB/A lights, just heating, as I still have their original intended enclosure outside where I will have them for several hours each day.

As for now, I have made some rather poor top cover container enclosed chambers. These will be used for only one or two days until I go out and buy the bookshelves.

Wish me luck.


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## Tom (Jul 22, 2018)

NewTortEnthusiast said:


> I will separate them tomorrow. My parents are giving me a spending limit of $400 for their enclosed chambers. I believe that is more than enough to build them with the idea I have. It is similar to a very recent post by another individual who decided to use a bookshelf from Ikea. Buying 2 large yet rather cheap bookcases plus replacing the backing for something more waterproof and tough, wood to make the lid to close it, along with a sheet of acrylic for each will be the bulk of my project. I intend to use no UVB/A lights, just heating, as I still have their original intended enclosure outside where I will have them for several hours each day.
> 
> As for now, I have made some rather poor top cover container enclosed chambers. These will be used for only one or two days until I go out and buy the bookshelves.
> 
> Wish me luck.


I've never had any luck re-purposing stuff like book cases. Its much easier and much better to just buy the plywood and 2x3s and build what you need in my experience. Most book shelves these days are built very flimsy and use particle board which sucks up water like a sponge and disintegrates.

For $400 you can buy 4 sheets of plywood and lots of 2x4s and 2x3' to make two solid 4x8' enclosures with stands. One sheet will be the bottom and the other sheet can be cut into 12" high walls.


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## NewTortEnthusiast (Jul 22, 2018)

Tom said:


> I've never had any luck re-purposing stuff like book cases. Its much easier and much better to just buy the plywood and 2x3s and build what you need in my experience. Most book shelves these days are built very flimsy and use particle board which sucks up water like a sponge and disintegrates.
> 
> For $400 you can buy 4 sheets of plywood and lots of 2x4s and 2x3' to make two solid 4x8' enclosures with stands. One sheet will be the bottom and the other sheet can be cut into 12" high walls.




I believe I will do that instead. Now its my father's job to build it. He's... proud of his work... I'm not saying he's bad. He's a really good carpenter and built planes before so he knows a lot. Its just... _sigh _he's going to do it all by himself and yell at me and not let me do anything. I've been avoiding asking my dad for help building the closed chambers since he is very busy and its an extra burden. 

I will give an update later if he yelled at me and said yes.


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## daniellenc (Jul 22, 2018)

You should have him teach you! Male bonding and a skill set you can carry forever!!


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## Yvonne G (Jul 22, 2018)

In my experience, having more than one baby tortoise in the same enclosure is beneficial, as it causes them to eat better (competition for the food). However, once they are eating and have settled in, that soon changes and you will have one more dominant than the other. Quite often this is detrimental to the less dominant baby. Domination is shown by crowding, following, sleeping together, sitting on the food, etc. You say, "Oh look, how cute, they're cuddling." But really the dominant baby is telling the less dominant baby that this is HIS spot. It can be very stressful for both tortoises.


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## NewTortEnthusiast (Jul 22, 2018)

daniellenc said:


> You should have him teach you! Male bonding and a skill set you can carry forever!!



He has taught me a lot of things. I could very well build the closed chamber by msyelf. Granted, it would be nowhere near as perfect as he could build it. He still wouldn't let me help on something like this. Out of all of us, my 3 older brothers and myself included, my father has told me I have the most patience and ability to understand. My other brothers, I do not know how they are functioning adults. They ask him about everything. My father has told me many times that he believes I will grow up to be a great: father, adult, and handyman years in the future, and that he is proud of me for doing research and wanting all this "outlandish sounding stuff" for my tortoises. I'm about to ask him if he can help me build them, he's doing electrical stuff rn.


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## TechnoCheese (Jul 22, 2018)

Another option for the sides of the enclosures is to take a sheet of ply wood and cut it into 3rds, so that you have three 96x16 inch strips. Use two strips for the 8 foot sides, and cut the remaining one in half so that you have a 48x16 inch strip for the 4 foot sides. That way you would have some taller sides that would make it easier for a thick layer of substrate and lighting, and you would likely need 3 sheets per chamber(not taking account for the glass/window). If you create a strong frame, you might be able to use thinner ply wood for cheaper.


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## NewTortEnthusiast (Jul 22, 2018)

TechnoCheese said:


> Another option for the sides of the enclosures is to take a sheet of ply wood and cut it into 3rds, so that you have three 96x16 inch strips. Use two strips for the 8 foot sides, and cut the remaining one in half so that you have a 48x16 inch strip for the 4 foot sides. That way you would have some taller sides that would make it easier for a thick layer of substrate and lighting, and you would likely need 3 sheets per chamber(not taking account for the glass/window). If you create a strong frame, you might be able to use thinner ply wood for cheaper.



Thank you for your own input on how I should construct my closed chambers. I'm running a lot of things past my father, and he's getting some ideas of his own. Within a day or two we will begin construction. I'll make a new thread in enclosures to keep you all updated.


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## TammyJ (Jul 23, 2018)

You are an interesting and interested young person and I am glad to see your enthusiasm!
While this construction is taking place, start giving your beautiful tortoises some much needed long, warm soaks. They are quite pyramided due to lack of moisture/humidity/soaking.
Looking forward to progress here! All the best.


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## NewTortEnthusiast (Jul 24, 2018)

TammyJ said:


> You are an interesting and interested young person and I am glad to see your enthusiasm!
> While this construction is taking place, start giving your beautiful tortoises some much needed long, warm soaks. They are quite pyramided due to lack of moisture/humidity/soaking.
> Looking forward to progress here! All the best.



Sorry for late reply. I give them 3 soaks every day. Each soak lasts about 30 minutes in warm water. I'm noticing the color between Steve's scutes has gotten noticeably darker once he is dry; like the outlines of his scutes where each scute meets. Is that a good sign? I'll post a picture later.


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## NewTortEnthusiast (Jul 25, 2018)

Here is Steve and George now in their separate tubs for the time being.


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## SheLLife (Jul 26, 2018)

Wow I learned some very valuable info on here! Thank you for being inquisitive and not being afraid to ask questions. Too many people are embarrassed or think they know it all bc they may have read one article. I have no doubt that you will have great success. I wish you the best. And thank you everybody else for ideas and information. I'm so hungry for knowledge!


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## AudgePaudge (Jul 26, 2018)

NewTortEnthusiast said:


> I will separate them tomorrow. My parents are giving me a spending limit of $400 for their enclosed chambers. I believe that is more than enough to build them with the idea I have. It is similar to a very recent post by another individual who decided to use a bookshelf from Ikea. Buying 2 large yet rather cheap bookcases plus replacing the backing for something more waterproof and tough, wood to make the lid to close it, along with a sheet of acrylic for each will be the bulk of my project. I intend to use no UVB/A lights, just heating, as I still have their original intended enclosure outside where I will have them for several hours each day.
> 
> As for now, I have made some rather poor top cover container enclosed chambers. These will be used for only one or two days until I go out and buy the bookshelves.
> 
> Wish me luck.


How old are you?


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## NewTortEnthusiast (Jul 27, 2018)

AudgePaudge said:


> How old are you?



I am 17.


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## TammyJ (Jul 30, 2018)

NewTortEnthusiast said:


> I am 17.


"When I was 17, it was a very good year." Old song. VERY old.
When I was 17 I got a horse. 
Not hijacking your thread!!!


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## AudgePaudge (Aug 2, 2018)

NewTortEnthusiast said:


> I am 17.


My brother is 18 and he’s moving out to go to college. I tried to get him to adopt one of those desert torts but he’s not big on tortoises! Lol


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## mike6789 (Aug 6, 2018)

Tom said:


> They don't "like" each other, and they will not be "sad" if separated. They are also not "helping" each other.
> 
> Everything you just described is tortoise aggression. This is one tortoise telling the other to: "Get out of my territory!" You need to separate them ASAP.
> 
> They are solitary animals in the wild. They do not like, need or want any company. They don't make friends and they don't get lonely. Living as a pair is highly stressful for both of them and the chronic stress can make them sick and eventually kill them. Groups of juveniles usually do okay together, but not pairs. Pairs are much too personal. One is dominant and one is subordinate, and neither of them want the other one around.



how if a group? i mean 6-7 sulcata with the big space... do they get stress more than just 2? is it save for them?


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## Tom (Aug 6, 2018)

mike6789 said:


> how if a group? i mean 6-7 sulcata with the big space... do they get stress more than just 2? is it save for them?


Groups of juveniles are usually fine. As they reach maturity, the males become problematic. Males mature sooner than females and they will begin harassing the immature girls. Best to raise males alone. Multiple mature males will result in fighting. Once in a while you hear of two males together and they survive for a while, but its not good for them.


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## mike6789 (Aug 8, 2018)

Tom said:


> Groups of juveniles are usually fine. As they reach maturity, the males become problematic. Males mature sooner than females and they will begin harassing the immature girls. Best to raise males alone. Multiple mature males will result in fighting. Once in a while you hear of two males together and they survive for a while, but its not good for them.



at what age/how big are them when they reach maturity


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## Tom (Aug 8, 2018)

mike6789 said:


> at what age/how big are them when they reach maturity


Males can reproduce at 14". I've heard of a 15" female laying eggs, but 17 or 18" is more common. Usually not before 5 or 6 years of age for females regardless of size. Males get very boisterous as they near maturity. They can be a real bother for smaller females that are nowhere near ready to breed. I find it best to house the males separately. You can try putting bachelor herds of juvenile or subadult males together. Some times they get along and sometimes they don't. Usually they don't.


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## Twinklybits (Nov 11, 2018)

TechnoCheese said:


> Sadly, Tom is correct. “Cuddling” and sleeping together is one tortoise trying to stress the other out of its territory, and “following” is really chasing. Definitely not affectionate.



Hey cheese! New here and hoping you or someone up here will let me know if keeping my hermits & 4month tortoise in the same tank? They seem to be fine and I’ve read the crabs can help the upkeep of the tank by feeding on the waste- is this true?


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## TechnoCheese (Nov 11, 2018)

Twinklybits said:


> Hey cheese! New here and hoping you or someone up here will let me know if keeping my hermits & 4month tortoise in the same tank? They seem to be fine and I’ve read the crabs can help the upkeep of the tank by feeding on the waste- is this true?



No, they absolutely should not be in the same tank. As far as I know, hermits need salt water, sand or a sand mixture, very different diets, and have the ability to pinch. The tortoise should not have access to any of these things. Along with that, tortoises are solitary and would likely be stressed by the crab if the tortoise is small.

Please give these a read, and get them separated ASAP.
How To Raise A Healthy Sulcata Or Leopard, Version 2.0 https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php...ealthy-Sulcata-Or-Leopard,-Version-2.0.79895/ 

For Those Who Have a Young Sulcata... https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/For-Those-Who-Have-a-Young-Sulcata....76744/ 

Beginner Mistakes https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/Beginner-Mistakes.45180/


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## Twinklybits (Nov 11, 2018)

Since these are such loner creatures,is it healthy for them to be held at all? My sulcata baby seems to like sitting on my chest &napping- it seems to warm him and be soothing -but is this a misread sign of stress or is it calmness? Also I’ve read to spritz or drizzle them once daily with water but now to soak them for up to 30mins-what’s best for this species?


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## Twinklybits (Nov 11, 2018)




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## TechnoCheese (Nov 11, 2018)

Twinklybits said:


> Since these are such loner creatures,is it healthy for them to be held at all? My sulcata baby seems to like sitting on my chest &napping- it seems to warm him and be soothing -but is this a misread sign of stress or is it calmness? Also I’ve read to spritz or drizzle them once daily with water but now to soak them for up to 30mins-what’s best for this species?



You can still hold them and such, but keep in mind that they’ll usually just tolerate it. It’s good to get them used to being touched, just try not to over do it.


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## mountaintwin (Jan 7, 2022)

I was feeling very guilty as i am selling one of two russian tortoises tomorrow, i got the second to be a friend but noticed it taking over the basking area and biting original turtle when feeding, original turtle was polite sniffing it but lately they finally sleep side by side, but from time to time i feel new one is dominating, maybe thats their nature but tomorrow i cant erase, i dont even know their sex as they are 1 year old, i guess it is better to mix turtles after knowing their sex. my little one learned a lot from the new turtle as the new one came from a batch of turtles that has been with it for a year but my original one ive had since it was a super baby. i hope it doesnt get bored as im rarely home and i live alone and thats the reason i got it a friend.


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## Tom (Jan 8, 2022)

mountaintwin said:


> I was feeling very guilty as i am selling one of two russian tortoises tomorrow, i got the second to be a friend but noticed it taking over the basking area and biting original turtle when feeding, original turtle was polite sniffing it but lately they finally sleep side by side, but from time to time i feel new one is dominating, maybe thats their nature but tomorrow i cant erase, i dont even know their sex as they are 1 year old, i guess it is better to mix turtles after knowing their sex. my little one learned a lot from the new turtle as the new one came from a batch of turtles that has been with it for a year but my original one ive had since it was a super baby. i hope it doesnt get bored as im rarely home and i live alone and thats the reason i got it a friend.


You've made the right call. Your tortoise didn't see the other one as a friend. It was an intruder, competitor, foe, rival, adversary, etc... Your tortoise is happy to be the sole king/queen of the castle.

One of the nice things about reptile pets is that they don't need or want our attention. The better species tolerate our musings and petting, but they are also fine if we just leave them be, or go on vacation for a couple of weeks. As long as they have their basic needs met, they are not emotionally hurt if we don't pay them much attention. Some even prefer to be left alone. You are not doing your tortoise any harm by housing it alone. Quite the opposite. When weather permits let the tortoise roam around in a large, safe, secure outdoor enclosure. That is all the enrichment and entertainment it needs.


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