# Can a rescuer breed animals?



## Jacqui (Apr 23, 2010)

Meg reminded me of this topic, when she posted this in a sulcata thread:

"I don't think you should call yourself a rescuer if you are breeding animals. Most rescues are disbarred from their qualifications if they are found breeding animals, or allowing them to breed on the premises."

I can think of several folks on here who do rescue work (in my mind that means taking in animals temporarily and finding them new permanent homes) and they also breed some of their turtles and tortoises. Also a much more public rescue person who is not on this forum comes to mind. She breeds several, most frequent are her Russians.

So my question is this.... should a rescue be able to breed? Does some how the fact that they also do breeding, cause them to some how be less of a good caretaker? Then last, should they be allowed to breed any animal that has been turned over to them? Or for that matter should any animal placed up for "adoption" rather then for sale, be allowed to be bred?

Jacqui


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## Kristina (Apr 23, 2010)

Yes and no. I think that rescuers should be required to follow the law. 

If a rescue is not to be breeding, according to the laws of their state and our country, then they shouldn't be. Period.

I do however feel that it is perfectly acceptable for someone involved in rescue to maintain their own private collection, pets, or breeding animals.

A big part of it for me is WHAT they are breeding. Sulcatas? Nope, not okay. Spider tortoises? Totally okay. See my line of thinking?

When I adopted my first three Hingebacks, Jeff was perfectly well aware that I intended on acquiring more and turning them into a breeding group. We aren't exactly overrun with captive bred Hingebacks, however. If someone turned another Hingeback in to me, I would keep it, and if it was a Home's, it would eventually become part of my existing group. I have a clause in my adoption contract also that allows for breeding under special circumstances - basically, if it is a rare animal, or an endangered animal, I will allow it. If it is a Sulcata or a Green Iguana, it is NEVER going to be allowed. 

If someone turned a Spider tort over to a rescue, should it come with a clause never to be bred? What about an Egyptian? 

I'm just a private individual, not an organization, so I am not upheld by laws stating that I can't breed. I also get no funding of any sort, everything is out of pocket for me, from vet visits to food, ect. Sometimes I ask a small adoption fee, sometimes I don't. Most of the time finding a good home is enough. For animals that have a "cool" factor that incites a bunch of kids to inquire who just think it would be awesome to own a gator, for example, I usually post the animal with a fee, to weed out the idiots, and then waive it when the right home is found. That is what I did with my Sulcatas. 

For a private individual that also does rescue to breed RESPONSIBLY, I see no problem with it.


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## kimber_lee_314 (Apr 23, 2010)

I agree with Kristina. Breeding RES or sulcatas is one thing, but I feel that the more captive bred breeding we do, the less will be taken from the wild - hopefully.


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## Tom (Apr 23, 2010)

kyryah said:


> A big part of it for me is WHAT they are breeding. Sulcatas? Nope, not okay. Spider tortoises? Totally okay. See my line of thinking?



No. I don't see your line of thinking. If there are enough of a given species in the world, IN YOUR OPINION, they shouldn't be bred? But if there aren't a lot, BY YOUR STANDARDS, then breeding should be encouraged?

Really, aren't there enough spider tortoises in the world anyway? I mean how many do we really need? They are pretty small and useless. Why do we need more?

Only accredited zoos should be allowed to have exotic animals anyway. If the public wants to see exotic tortoises, they should just go to the zoo, where the professionals can manage these exotics properly.

Do YOU see my line of thinking here? In case its not obvious the previous two paragraphs are completely opposite of my real point of view. I do this to try to illustrate what I feel is an absurd premise in your "line of thinking".

As to the OP: The problem here is not genuine rescues with some private pets on the side. The problem is every Tom, **** and Harry calling themselves a rescue or a sanctuary when they are really just enthusiastic hobbyists, breeders and collectors like some of us. They are getting benefits, privileges and tax breaks that we should really all be getting. Notice how I worded that. I didn't say they don't deserve the breaks they get, I said WE ALL deserve the breaks they get.


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## Kristina (Apr 23, 2010)

No, NOT by *my* standards. By the standards of the status of these tortoises both in the wild, and in captivity, including their placement on the CITES appendices. How was that not obvious by my examples? Do I think that there are so few Sulcatas already being bred by actual breeders that "rescues" need to be upping the population? No, and I know very well neither do you. Do I think that responsible rescuers should be involved in preservation and conservation of endangered species? Yes, I do. That is MY opinion and MY line of thinking.

Thanks for calling me absurd. This board is getting ridiculously snarky. I don't know what happened in the year I was gone, but I don't like it. I used to find this a friendly place and lately, it has been nothing but an ego fest. I was under the impression that in a debate one is allowed to have their own opinion, without being insulted. And I am very insulted.


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## Laura (Apr 23, 2010)

Many breeders of Dogs.. Responsible breeders.. not hoarders, backyard, puppy mills etc.. Rescue thier breed of dog. Some think it is thier responsibilty to do so, others just like to help where needed.. The dogs /animals that are rescued should NOT be bred. Of course there are lots of different types of rescues.. taken in when the owner can no longer care for it.. adopted/rescued from a shelter, off the street etc.. 
I know of a Horse Rescue.. Who breeds a certain mix of horse.. to sell the babies to support her rescue.. I have a problem with that.. It just seems so wrong when so many horses in general are dying and in need. Including ones she breeds.. 
So it varies by breed or species. Not all breeding is good, not all rescues are legit. There is a right way and a wrong way, and opinions will vary greatly.. 
I would think Most animal shleters rescues, would like to be put out of business. ( no animals needing homes) but it will never happen..


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## kimber_lee_314 (Apr 23, 2010)

kyryah said:


> No, NOT by *my* standards. By the standards of the status of these tortoises both in the wild, and in captivity, including their placement on the CITES appendices. How was that not obvious by my examples? Do I think that there are so few Sulcatas already being bred by actual breeders that "rescues" need to be upping the population? No, and I know very well neither do you. Do I think that responsible rescuers should be involved in preservation and conservation of endangered species? Yes, I do. That is MY opinion and MY line of thinking.
> 
> Thanks for calling me absurd. This board is getting ridiculously snarky. I don't know what happened in the year I was gone, but I don't like it. I used to find this a friendly place and lately, it has been nothing but an ego fest. I was under the impression that in a debate one is allowed to have their own opinion, without being insulted. And I am very insulted.



Yes, I agree. It would be nice if we could debate the issue and not debate each other's integrity. This could be a lot of fun and educational for all of us if we can respect each other.


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## Tom (Apr 23, 2010)

kyryah said:


> Thanks for calling me absurd. This board is getting ridiculously snarky. I don't know what happened in the year I was gone, but I don't like it. I used to find this a friendly place and lately, it has been nothing but an ego fest. I was under the impression that in a debate one is allowed to have their own opinion, without being insulted. And I am very insulted.



Now hold on a minute there. I did not call you absurd. I said I thought the premise that you opined was absurd. I certainly did not insult you. I didn't call you any names whatsoever. I happen to respect you, but I disagree, in general with the whole sulcata overbreeding premise. My hope in writing those two silly paragraphs was to get you and others to reexamine there thoughts on WHO should be breeding WHAT?

I truly meant you no insult. I was just expressing my opinion. I am sorry if my methodology offended you. I hope you weren't referring to me about the "ego fest" as I am here to learn and share what I have learned. I don't have anything to prove and I won't be the least bit offended if anyone disregards my opinion.

No wait... I do have something to prove. Adequate humidity and moisture prevents pyramiding in Sulcatas and Leopards. But, that's an entirely different post...

I should have put some smileys in the original post to make it less offensive. Here are some belatedly...:shy:


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## kimber_lee_314 (Apr 23, 2010)

Why do you disagree with not breeding sulcatas, Tom? There seems to be a lot of them that end up in rescues. True, it's not like shelters are over flowing with them, but from what I read (and I have no personal experience with this) overbreeding is a problem. I'm interested on your viewpoint.


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## TylerStewart (Apr 23, 2010)

I think if the so-called rescues would ever give up their sulcatas to good homes when they came along, there would be no sulcatas in the rescues for everyone else to complain about. 

There's a clear difference between a person who rescued a tortoise and someone who is a legit non-profit rescue. I am more than willing to take in unwanted tortoises (rescue them), but there's not a change in hell I'd let the govt tell me what it takes to become a real "rescue." Just what I need is Obama coming over telling me I had too much land and too many tortoises and I had to give 3/4 of it away LOL. I don't see the benefit of being a legal, city recognized rescue anyways. If you want to rescue tortoises, rescue tortoises. If you want a pat on the back, I guess you make yourself a city recognized rescue so everyone knows you rescue tortoises.


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## Kristina (Apr 23, 2010)

LOL (at the smileys) and apology accepted. Thank you for clearing that up. No, I was not targeting you with the ego fest comment and should have left that out, and for that I apologize. I was irritated already and kind of snapped. There are others on the board that have been getting my goat lately, and I should not have taken it out on you. 

My main issue with the "overbreeding" of Sulcatas is how unsuited they are to the majority of the United States. I have kept Sulcatas in Michigan. They weren't full grown, and honestly it wasn't that hard on me, but I could see how hard it was on them to be cooped up 6 months of the year. It is hard to know who to blame, the breeders for selling to people without education, or the people that buy these animals without doing the proper research. I blame both. It isn't so much that I believe that there is a influx of unwanted Sulcatas, it is more that I think that there are far fewer people in this country that have the ability to handle a Sulcata than there are Sulcatas produced. For me, as I already stated, "rescue" carries a big responsibility. There is no point in rescuing an animal if all you are going to do is send it right back into the kind of home that it came out of. That counts for the offspring of these animals too. If I honestly though that the unscrupulous breeders could be put out of business if rescues became the primary breeders of Sulcatas, then I would be all for it. But we know that is never going to happen. Therefore, in my opinion, it should be the role of rescue to clean up the mess. If someone wants to wear the mantle of rescuer, then that is what you do - clean up other people's messes. It sucks, in a lot of ways it enables people to continue to be irresponsible, but I don't do it for people - I do it for animals. But I digress - I guess my point is, since there are always going to be Sulcatas already produced that need homes, why would a rescue want to breed them?


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## Jacqui (Apr 23, 2010)

Time out! This thread is about rescuers breeding, NOT about sulcata breeding. Let's stick to the issues and not go off on sulcata issues. I stated rescuers BREEDING that's general, PLEASE stick to generals.

Thank you Tom for clarifying what you meant in your first post. Hope she feels better now she understands what you were trying to say, not how it came out to her.


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## Tom (Apr 23, 2010)

kimber_lee_314 said:


> Why do you disagree with not breeding sulcatas, Tom? There seems to be a lot of them that end up in rescues. True, it's not like shelters are over flowing with them, but from what I read (and I have no personal experience with this) overbreeding is a problem. I'm interested on your viewpoint.



Starting a new thread on this so as not to hijack Jacqui's. See you there.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 23, 2010)

Besides the "rescue" animals that I take in, I DO have my own collection of turtles and tortoises. I have waiting lists of names wanting the different kinds of turtles and tortoises, and I have put myself on these lists for what ever kind of tortoise I'm interested in. I used to be on the leopard list and the yellowfoot list. I had to wait my turn, but I eventually I did get in leopards and yellowfoots that I was able to add to my collection. I have run an honest ship, and always gone to the first name on the list, even if I really, REALLY wanted the rescued animal.

So, now that those animals are in my own collections, and I got them fair and square, I see nothing wrong with breeding them and selling the babies. The money is just turned back in to fund my tortoise venture.

My name isn't on any of my adoption lists anymore. I have quite enough in my own collection to keep me busy and don't want to diversify any more. The only breeding tortoises that came from the rescue are the yellowfoots and the leopards, however I have since adopted (not sold) out the two male leopards that I had because I had a hard time selling the babies. One of the Yellowfoot tortoises came from a friend and one came from the rescue.

I do have an over-abundance of 3-toed box turtles, most of which are up for adoption, but no one on my lists for them. If I get any babies (I usually let nature take its course and hardly any eggs in the ground ever hatch) I don't sell them, I give them away free.


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## dmmj (Apr 23, 2010)

I did not know rescues could not breed, that is new to me. I think that if you rescue you should not be breeeding, (the animlas, not you) but I think that if you want to breed the type of tort you do not rescue that is fine, I unofficially rescue RES and I do not breed them, but I would one day like to breed my russians and my redfoot.


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## DonaTello's-Mom (Apr 23, 2010)

dmmj said:


> I di dnot know rescues could not breed, that is new to me. I think that if you rescue you should not be breeeding, (the animlas, not you) but I think that if you want to breed the type of tort you do not rescue that is fine, I unofficially rescue RES and I do not breed them, but I would one day like to breed my russians and my redfoot.





(the animlas, not you).....................Ah your killing me!!


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## matt41gb (Apr 24, 2010)

I am not totally for it, or against it. I do believe it depends on which species you intend to breed as mentioned before. I am no official rescue by any means. I do, however, get several tortoises each year that are injured, or unwanted. Since I work for a veterinarian, most of the clients know me as the "Turtle Guy" original I know, ha! They always know someone that knows someone who has a turtle or tortoise and they bring it to the clinic. 

I also live in the South with great weather for most any tortoise species. Several adult sulcatas come through my hands each summer, and and the sooner I can find them homes the better. I have a male tortoise that will breed a rock, and fight anything that moves. I do not want him breeding the females! 

I do, however, want to breed my red-foot and yellow-foot tortoises. Some of them are rescues, but most are not. I have no problem if my "rescued" to use the term loosley, red or yellows mated and laid eggs. There are not many breeders around here that I know of, and this area is huge! I would have no problems selling the hatchlings. I also make sure the buyer is stable enough to take care of it long term which reduces the chance of me ever seeing it again in the future as a rescue. 

I also keep native three-toed box turtles. I allow them to freely breed, and I will actively incubate the eggs in the hopes that they will hatch. 

I believe that it does depend on what species you are intending to breed. You (the seller) have a responsibility to educate and screen a potential buyer to make sure they can truly take care of that tortoise. If you sell, adopt out, or give a hatchling away for free, you must not just let anyone take it home with them. I think this is where a lot of the problems start. A lot of dealers will sell to anyone without knowing anything about them; just show them green and it's yours. People need to be screened and educated before taking home a turtle or tortoise, bottom line! 

Any money I make goes right back into my animals. There is no way I could make any sort of profit off of my tortoises breeding. I enjoy them, I have enough space for them, and I live in a good climate to keep them. Just be responsible who they go to and I think we will start seeing a big difference in the future. 

-Matt


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## JenniferinFL (Jun 19, 2010)

Rescues, at least in most of the US, can set their own rules for that. 

I would say most of the ones I've looked at online have a "no-breeding" contract on some if not all the animals in their rescue. BUT, others ask if you would be willing to breed in the case of a less common species. 

Most of the rescues I've looked at lately are completely against breeding red ear sliders and sulcatas for instance. BUT, from there, they diverge where some don't have no-breeding contracts on other species and I even ran into a rescue that only places less common species with someone who will try to breed them. 

Someone brought up breed specific rescue for dogs earlier. I think that's a prime example really. There are plenty of responsible show breeders that are also active in the rescue of their breed. BUT, they would never breed rescued pet quality dogs. Most of them are adamant about spay/neuter for pet quality animals even if they are purebred. The regular rescue people often take offense to the show breeder rescue people. Our local shelter won't adopt a pet to you if any of your current pets aren't fixed. It doesn't matter if two of them are show dogs and your other dog is neutered, that automatically disqualifies you from adoption. But, hey, their shelter their rules..

Probably similarly, if you run a reptile rescue and also breed fancy ball pythons, that doesn't mean your going to try to breed every ball python that comes through your rescue or even that you would encourage others to breed rescued ball pythons. Generally there's a reason they end up in rescue, the owner didn't research enough and wasn't prepared enough when they brought their new pet home and then they finally surrender it when it doesn't eat right, doesn't shed right and a vet visit is out of the question. Sure, there are probably many healthy animals in rescues, BUT, there are probably many too that would not be suitable for a breeding program just because their prior care was lackluster. 

(Sorry, just some thoughts from a newbie)


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jun 20, 2010)

kimber_lee_314 said:


> kyryah said:
> 
> 
> > No, NOT by *my* standards. By the standards of the status of these tortoises both in the wild, and in captivity, including their placement on the CITES appendices. How was that not obvious by my examples? Do I think that there are so few Sulcatas already being bred by actual breeders that "rescues" need to be upping the population? No, and I know very well neither do you. Do I think that responsible rescuers should be involved in preservation and conservation of endangered species? Yes, I do. That is MY opinion and MY line of thinking.
> ...



Respect is good.


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## Kristina (Jun 20, 2010)

Just to be clear, Tom and I spoke later in PM and that issue was completely resolved. I was having a bad day, and mis-read what he was saying, and took it personally. No slight against me was meant by Tom, his comment was not malicious in any way and I apologized to him for flying off the handle. So we can let that part of this thread die quietly


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