# Chameleon concerns



## ZEROPILOT (Nov 8, 2019)

I'm considering Chameleons.
I live in warm, humid south Florida and my plan is to purchase a large outdoor bird aviary or a "cat run" type cage.
I have room for it to be large.
I kept Jacksons years ago.
I want a tropical species that would do well in my environment.
I'm thinking Jacksons again. But like the larger and more colorful ones also.
I will keep a single species.


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## wellington (Nov 8, 2019)

Get a Panther. They are friendly and beautiful. The veiled is what I had. They aren't as easy as some of the others and can be harder to tame.
Be sure to share pics when it happens. If I lived in Florida I would for sure have a big outdoor cage for one.
I housed my veiled outside during the warm months here.


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## Tom (Nov 8, 2019)

Jackson's are a montane species. They do better with cooler temps.

A panther should do fantastic in your area. You could also look into my favorite and see if you can find a CB mellers. Parsons are pretty cool too.


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## Moozillion (Nov 9, 2019)

Cool! I've never kept chameleons, but I've always thought they are really fascinating!!!
I'll be joining the parade of people following this thread!


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 9, 2019)

Itll be Panther(s) then.
I just ordered two large, outdoor aviaries made for birds for less than $100 each.
Boy, Ebay is so much cheaper than building from scratch.....
I'll start posting once I get the cages.


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## wccmog10 (Nov 9, 2019)

Chameleons are really cool. Several years back I had a veiled. He was never very tame, but was still awesome, as long as you were ok not touching him. He would still eat out of my hand, as long as you didn’t try to pick him up. When I was at the zoo we had some Mellers that we got to work with, they were cool too. Watching the mellers nest was probably the coolest nesting I’ve seen. She dug her nest head first with her front legs. It’s the only chameleon species that I’ve seen nest, for all I know they all nest this way- but it was really cool.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 9, 2019)

I've always been fascinated by chams. I love the independant eyes and the toes.


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 9, 2019)

I ordered 2 cages from HAYNEEDLE.
They are wooden and screen "outdoors" aviaries.
I wasn't able to download a photo.
They're about 25"x25"x65"


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## Tom (Nov 9, 2019)

ZEROPILOT said:


> I ordered 2 cages from HAYNEEDLE.
> They are wooden and screen "outdoors" aviaries.
> I wasn't able to download a photo.
> They're about 25"x25"x65"


That's a good size for a baby.

I'm guessing that from your previous Jackson experience that you already know about hydration and drippers?

I've been fighting the urge to get another cham for years. I just don't need anything else to take care of every day. I've got the dogs, the hawks, the ackies, the cribos, 3 puppies, 200+ tarantulas, 4 roach colonies, all the adult tortoises, all the baby tortoises... Yeah, I'll enjoy your chams and live vicariously.


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## Toddrickfl1 (Nov 9, 2019)

Theres places in Broward and Dade where you can catch them.


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 9, 2019)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> Theres places in Broward and Dade where you can catch them.


I have seen two in all the years I've lived here. But both of them have been way off of the ground and on high voltage power lines


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 9, 2019)

Interesting.
Those YOUTUBE videos of people catching "wild" Chameleons seem to be down in Homestead.
That's close to where the majority of the most exotic fishes are too.
Lots of farming areas and I'll bet that there had been people farming and raising these exotics down there at some point....Some escaped.
I'm going to see if I can find any of those hot areas there. I DID find the spot that has those MIDAS cichlids from just a few clues off of 3 YOUTUBE videos.


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 11, 2019)

I'm steering towards the Veiled Chameleon because of size, the fact that they are omnivorous and can (And do) live in Florida without any artificial help.
I might have to set up a cricket ranch.
Or a @Tom type roach colony. Although I don't actually see that happening.
Having wax worms, mealworms and crickets on hand has to happen first. 
Before I get the lizards.


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## Tom (Nov 11, 2019)

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'm steering towards the Veiled Chameleon because of size, the fact that they are omnivorous and can (And do) live in Florida without any artificial help.
> I might have to set up a cricket ranch.
> Or a @Tom type roach colony. Although I don't actually see that happening.
> Having wax worms, mealworms and crickets on hand has to happen first.
> Before I get the lizards.


I raised several of those in years passed. I like them. 

Wax worms and meal worms are ok once in a while, but shouldn't be fed often or in much quantity. Crickets are a decent food source with the right gut loading and dusting, but they die off for no reason, stink, make a lot of noise, and if left with a sleeping cham overnight, they will chew on your animal. I quit keeping chameleons and other insectivores for a long time due to my dislike of crickets. Plus they are difficult to breed, so you have to buy new ones all the time. Roaches are the way to go man. You'll see.


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 11, 2019)

Tom said:


> I raised several of those in years passed. I like them.
> 
> Wax worms and meal worms are ok once in a while, but shouldn't be fed often or in much quantity. Crickets are a decent food source with the right gut loading and dusting, but they die off for no reason, stink, make a lot of noise, and if left with a sleeping cham overnight, they will chew on your animal. I quit keeping chameleons and other insectivores for a long time due to my dislike of crickets. Plus they are difficult to breed, so you have to buy new ones all the time. Roaches are the way to go man. You'll see.


I did have a cricket "bloom" once in a Jacksons enclosure. The crickets killed the lizard from what I could tell.
I was feeding them freeze dried mashed potatoes and about 8 crickets became several thousand in what seemed like overnight.
I can also get horn worms. They are Sphinx moth caterpillars. But are more or less one dollar each.
I need to handle my roach phobia.


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## Tom (Nov 11, 2019)

ZEROPILOT said:


> I need to handle my roach phobia.


You can start with a slow easy species that is very easy to handle, like the dubia. They are MUCH less creepy and much slower than the typical pest roach species running around outside. The juveniles in particular kind of remind me of a large roly poly, more than a roach.

Blatta lateralis is a really good one to feed to smaller chams. AKA red runners. They are soft and easy to handle, but they are fast. Most people don't find them too objectionable.

Hissing roaches are sometimes kept as pets, and their babies make good feeders, although they are slow to reproduce.


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## wellington (Nov 11, 2019)

ZEROPILOT said:


> I did have a cricket "bloom" once in a Jacksons enclosure. The crickets killed the lizard from what I could tell.
> I was feeding them freeze dried mashed potatoes and about 8 crickets became several thousand in what seemed like overnight.
> I can also get horn worms. They are Sphinx moth caterpillars. But are more or less one dollar each.
> I need to handle my roach phobia.


I did the roaches for a while. If I can get over it you can. I get creeped about the crickets and still could do the roaches. I never had to touch the roaches. I used the large tweezers to pick them up. The Dubia is what I fed. As Tom mentioned about the worms, not a good food source for every day. The horn worms are great too and easy to hatch out from eggs which is also cheaper.


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 12, 2019)

Tom said:


> You can start with a slow easy species that is very easy to handle, like the dubia. They are MUCH less creepy and much slower than the typical pest roach species running around outside. The juveniles in particular kind of remind me of a large roly poly, more than a roach.
> 
> Blatta lateralis is a really good one to feed to smaller chams. AKA red runners. They are soft and easy to handle, but they are fast. Most people don't find them too objectionable.
> 
> Hissing roaches are sometimes kept as pets, and their babies make good feeders, although they are slow to reproduce.


These are available commercially?
Slow and maybe wingless would be good.


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 12, 2019)

I found out the mystery of the wild Florida Veiled Chameleons.
Certain "farmers" started releasing Chams in old fruit orchards in south Miami so that they could later return and just scoop up babies to sell at reptile events.
Apparently these wild living animals are hard to acclimate to captivity and are often full of parasites, etc.
I even found an individual that sells these ranched Chameleons. But I'm going to pass on them.
But, the good news is that it confirmed that Veiled Chameleons can and do live outdoors in Florida.


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## Tom (Nov 12, 2019)

ZEROPILOT said:


> These are available commercially?
> Slow and maybe wingless would be good.


Yes, but I think you have to get them in FL. I'm pretty sure we can't ship roaches into FL.

Adult males have wings, but they cannot fly at all. Adult females are shiny and kind of pretty, with no wings. Juveniles and babies are sort of grayish brownish color and have no wings. Get 100-200 juveniles to start a colony. Don't waste your money on adults. They usually don't reproduce well after you move them. Best if they mature into adulthood in your bin. It takes months for it to get up and running good, but eventually, you'll never have to pay for food insects again. I produce so many that I feed the surplus to my chicken flock by the thousands. This is after I feed all the tarantulas, scorpions and ackie monitors.


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 12, 2019)

So far I've got hornworms. Waxworms, super mealworms and crickets ready.
I'm also hoping to free range some grass hoppers and moths, etc.


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## Tom (Nov 13, 2019)

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'm also hoping to free range some grass hoppers and moths, etc.


I wouldn't do the free range thing. Too much risk of parasite or pesticides. Not worth the risk.


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 13, 2019)

Tom said:


> I wouldn't do the free range thing. Too much risk of parasite or pesticides. Not worth the risk.


Yes.
I suppose you're correct.
My own yard is treated...


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 13, 2019)

I've joined the
CHAMELEON FORUM
It's helpful. But kind of slow paced.
I'm going to hopefully see what other south Floridians have done. Chameleon wise.


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 14, 2019)

I'm seriously considering bringing the aviaries indoors.
These species like it the SAME temperature as my house. 73°f. With a basking spot I could do with CHE and UV supplied by 5.0 strip florescents.
Hmmmm. Sounds like stuff I already own.


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## Tom (Nov 14, 2019)

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'm seriously considering bringing the aviaries indoors.
> These species like it the SAME temperature as my house. 73°f. With a basking spot I could do with CHE and UV supplied by 5.0 strip florescents.
> Hmmmm. Sounds like stuff I already own.


Just like tortoises, I like to have both an inside and an outside enclosure. I use both.


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 14, 2019)

Tom said:


> Just like tortoises, I like to have both an inside and an outside enclosure. I use both.


Maybe these store bought aviaries would look neat indoors and outside I can make a gigantic walk in one.


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 14, 2019)

Tom said:


> I raised several of those in years passed. I like them.
> 
> Wax worms and meal worms are ok once in a while, but shouldn't be fed often or in much quantity. Crickets are a decent food source with the right gut loading and dusting, but they die off for no reason, stink, make a lot of noise, and if left with a sleeping cham overnight, they will chew on your animal. I quit keeping chameleons and other insectivores for a long time due to my dislike of crickets. Plus they are difficult to breed, so you have to buy new ones all the time. Roaches are the way to go man. You'll see.


Dubia roaches are illegal in Florida.
Discoid roaches ARE legal.
Neither are appealing to me.
I wish there was a species that kept that isopod look and didn't get the wings.
I just can't stand that.....
And I don't know why.
What do you know about GREEN BANANA roaches? They're not too creepy and they're Florida legal.


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 14, 2019)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Dubia roaches are illegal in Florida.
> Discoid roaches ARE legal.
> Neither are appealing to me.
> I wish there was a species that kept that isopod look and didn't get the wings.
> ...


I've been reading about them.
They are Florida indigenous. That's good.
But they're about a dollar each. They fly. They can climb up anything and are no more nutritious than a cricket.


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## Tom (Nov 14, 2019)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Dubia roaches are illegal in Florida.
> Discoid roaches ARE legal.
> Neither are appealing to me.
> I wish there was a species that kept that isopod look and didn't get the wings.
> ...


I have no experience with the banana roaches. I never got any that could fly.

Discoids get big and they are fast movers. All of the Blaberus genus are that way. They also don't reproduce as fast as dubia. Are dubia illegal to posses in FL, or just illegal to ship?


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 15, 2019)

Illegal to possess.
From what I understand, its relatively new.


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 15, 2019)

I got these INDOOR cages today for $100.
They are very large. I need to bleach them and do some minor repairs.
2.5'x2.5'x4.5'
Smaller than the two outdoors aviaries that I haven't assembled yet.
So I have indoor and outdoor.
Hopefully I'll be able to get this going soon.


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## EllieMay (Nov 15, 2019)

ZEROPILOT said:


> I got these INDOOR cages today for $100.
> They are very large. I need to bleach them and do some minor repairs.
> 2.5'x2.5'x4.5'
> Smaller than the two outdoors aviaries that I haven't assembled yet.
> ...


Those are nice! I saw them new on eBay for $128 each. I have a Jackson’s chameleon and I was thinking of getting it for him. I am also considering an outdoor green house for my tortoise food and a secondary paradise for him.. still undecided though. I got him as a juvenile and he’s grown a lot in the past few months. He won’t eat the roaches. Loves the hornworms but they are very expensive and not a lot of nutrients to them.. he eats mostly crickets and super worms.. I’ll be watching your progress


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 15, 2019)

EllieMay said:


> Those are nice! I saw them new on eBay for $128 each. I have a Jackson’s chameleon and I was thinking of getting it for him. I am also considering an outdoor green house for my tortoise food and a secondary paradise for him.. still undecided though. I got him as a juvenile and he’s grown a lot in the past few months. He won’t eat the roaches. Loves the hornworms but they are very expensive and not a lot of nutrients to them.. he eats mostly crickets and super worms.. I’ll be watching your progress


Thanks 
I don't think I'll be doing roaches.


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