# Rant.......



## JustAnja (Mar 26, 2008)

As most of you know I recently made a deal to purchase 1.5 adult Three Toed Box turtles. Well today is now supposed to be the day he is shipping, since he couldnt do it Mon or Tues. Now I wake up to find an email telling me he is going to have to ship them USPS (ILLEGAL) or ask for more money for shipping. He quoted $50 for shipping and thats what I have paid him. I will not agree to let him ship USPS since I know its illegal to ship turtles in that manner. Ive been waiting a week for him to ship them and now on ship day he comes up with this. A couple of times he has offered to refund my money for various reasons, such as not getting me the pics he promised. I think he is just trying to flake on me because someone offered him more money for the turtles. He did mention when he was waiting the 2 days for my deposit on them that he had others waiting. Im so mad right now I cant see straight. 

Here is his email from this morning....



> I will have to ship USPS, if it can't go overnight to your location, I will need more money for shipping or will refund you. an 18" x 18" box from 8-18" high is $160 overnighted to your house via ups. USPS is $80 and I will cover the extra (you paid 50, and minus my paypal charges I only receivd 137, so the math isn't difficult here. I am only covered with $57 via usps (the cheapest route). Thanks Andrew,




Sorry but I just wanted to rant a little on this and see what everyone else thinks.....Also I did receive my adult RF tort male who is nearly 5lbs overnight via USPS and it cost them a whopping $32. (I was not told they were shipping him this way, but they did claim torts are legal, not turtles so I dont know) I really find $80 very hard to swallow.


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## Itort (Mar 26, 2008)

I think he's trying to squeeze every possible penny he can out of this sale. This is probably a common business practice of his. If you don't mind, perhaps publishing this info along with personal name and business name will help others to avoid him. If he sells on kingsnake, I think they would want this info. Does he sell other herps ?


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## Chipdog (Mar 26, 2008)

Just an idea but where is this guy located? It seems like there are quite a few people on this board from all over the place. With all of the help you offer everyday maybe if someone was in the same area as this guy maybe someone could pick up your new to be friends and ship them the proper way.

just a thought
chip


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## JustAnja (Mar 26, 2008)

This guy replied to an ad I placed on kingsnake looking for female Three Toeds. He priced them to me at $25, so I ended up taking all 5 and he was throwing in the male for free because he was *skinny from breeding*. No big deal, I have 3 adults males. 

I will wait to see how he handles things today before I post his information. But if this gets nasty I will be posting his details and will post them over at the BOI as well. 

This is my reply to him.


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If your not going to ship for the agreed upon price, LEGALLY than please just refund my money. Shipping turtles via USPS is illegal.

Also I did have someone ship me a large adult redfoot tortoise without my prior knowledge via USPS and it cost them $32 overnight. This was a rather large box and a 5lb tortoise. I find $80 hard to believe.
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## JustAnja (Mar 26, 2008)

He has refunded my money this morning, but only after accusing me of getting snippy over shipping??? Gotta love it when they try to turn things around on you. lol He had 2 weeks to determine his shipping was going to cost more, he should not have set and agreed on a price including shipping without getting a quote first. That was stupid on his part.

He also says that turtles were OK'd about 5 years ago with the US Postal Service. Anyone know anything on that? I know for sure in 2003-2004 they were still against USPS regulations. I have not heard of anything changing.


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## Itort (Mar 26, 2008)

To tell the truth I have never cared for USPS for shipping any animals because of their rather cavalier atitude. I know that overnite USPS can take up to 4 days (I lost 50 heritage turkey polts this way) and livestock losses are responsibility of shipper and receiver, therefore I avoid when I can. Now we all know UPS, DHL, and FEDEX don't deliver to the wilds of Wisconsin even though they will to the wilds of Iowa.


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## JustAnja (Mar 26, 2008)

I especially like this reply from him this morning regarding the $80 USPS quote. Note my zip code is 53091. I just went and checked and for an 18*18*18 box weighing 5lbs. (6 adult box turtles wont weigh much more than that right?) I got Priority Mail 2 days	$35.95 (overnight not available from his zip to mine)



> you can find it hard to believe all you want.... If you want to be skeptical, go to usps.com and type in the dimensions of the box from zipcode 98418 overnighted to your zipcode.
> 
> would you like a check for the total minus my paypal charges or would you like me to be decent?


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## Itort (Mar 26, 2008)

Who is this?


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## JustAnja (Mar 26, 2008)

Some guy named Andrew Owen from Tacoma, WA. If you would like me to send you the emails so that you can see what went on from day one message me and give me your email address. 

Basically I had posted an ad looking for adult female Three Toeds on kingsnake. A couple of weeks later he replied to me offering females, said he had plenty. (I had just picked up the Hermanns from Ann so I didnt have the disposable cash that I had when I posted the ad) I asked him how much for 3-4 and he told me $25 each. I asked how many he had available and he told me 5, he offered all 5 plus the free male for $175 shipped. I agreed and asked if he would mind me making a pmt the Wed coming up and one the following Wed when my direct deposits go in. He agreed and I actually sent him the first pmt a day or two ahead of time. Last Wed a week ago is when I made the 2nd pmt and he said he would be shipping Monday. Well Monday comes and he had emailed sometime during the night saying he wouldnt be able to make it to UPS Mon or Tues and could be ship Wed. I agreed and just said that was OK as long as they actually went out Wed, since I dont like to have anything shipped any later in the week than that. Then I wake up today, shipping day, to the email basically demanding more money for shipping the turtles. I never once got snippy with him regarding shipping and agreed to everything he had asked and followed through with everything on my end as agreed. Im still sticking with someone offered him more money for them and he regretted offering them to me for that price. 

Well now I am back to square one looking for more adult female Three Toed Box Turtles. lol


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## JustAnja (Mar 26, 2008)

Oh and just for snits and giggles here is the UPS quote I just got. lol

UPS Next Day Air Early A.M.Ã‚Â®

Billable Weight: 5.0 lbs.
1 10:00 A.M.
Thursday
March 27, 2008 105.94 USD*
Ship
UPS Next Day AirÃ‚Â®

Billable Weight: 5.0 lbs.
1 12:00 P.M.
Thursday
March 27, 2008 72.17 USD*
Ship
UPS Next Day Air SaverÃ‚Â®

Billable Weight: 5.0 lbs.
1 By End of Day
Thursday
March 27, 2008 65.41 USD*


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## JustAnja (Mar 26, 2008)

*Per the USPS website*

A friend located the information regarding the regulations for me.

*



601 Mailability

9.3.3 Small Cold-Blooded Animals

Small, harmless, cold-blooded animals (except snakes and turtles) that do not require food or water or attention during handling in the mail and that do not create sanitary problems or obnoxious odors are mailable (e.g., baby alligators and caimans not more than 20 inches long, bloodworms, earthworms, mealworms, salamanders, leeches, lizards, snails, and tadpoles).

9.6.5 Criminal Penalties

18 USC 1716B provides criminal penalties for mailing anything nonmailable under 39 USC 3014(b), unless the item is excepted under USPS regulations. 18 USC 1716D provides criminal penalties for mailing anything nonmailable under 39 USC 3015(c) and (d).

1998 Federal Sentencing Guidelines
Ã‚Â§2Q2.1. Offenses Involving Fish, Wildlife, and Plants

(a) Base Offense Level: 6

(b) Specific Offense Characteristics

(1) If the offense (A) was committed for pecuniary gain or otherwise involved a commercial purpose; or (B) involved a pattern of similar violations, increase by 2 levels.

(2) If the offense (A) involved fish, wildlife, or plants that were not quarantined as required by law; or (B) otherwise created a significant risk of infestation or disease transmission potentially harmful to humans, fish, wildlife, or plants, increase by 2 levels.

(3) (If more than one applies, use the greater):

(A) If the market value of the fish, wildlife, or plants exceeded $2,000, increase the offense level by the corresponding number of levels from the table in Ã‚Â§2F1.1 (Fraud and Deceit); or

(B)If the offense involved (i) marine mammals that are listed as depleted under the Marine Mammal Protection Act (as set forth in 50 C.F.R. Ã‚Â§ 216.15); (ii) fish, wildlife, or plants that are listed as endangered or threatened by the Endangered Species Act (as set forth in 50 C.F.R. Part 17); or (iii) fish, wildlife, or plants that are listed in Appendix I to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna or Flora (as set forth in 50 C.F.R. Part 23), increase by4 levels.

Commentary

Statutory Provisions: 16 U.S.C. Ã‚Â§Ã‚Â§ 668(a), 707(b), 1174(a), 1338(a), 1375(b), 1540(b), 3373(d); 18 U.S.C. Ã‚Â§ 545. For additional statutory provision(s), see Appendix A (Statutory Index).

Application Notes:

1. "For pecuniary gain" means for receipt of, or in anticipation of receipt of, anything of value, whether monetary or in goods or services. Thus, offenses committed for pecuniary gain include both monetary and barter transactions. Similarly, activities designed to increase gross revenue are considered to be committed for pecuniary gain.

2. The acquisition of fish, wildlife, or plants for display to the public, whether for a fee or donation and whether by an individual or an organization, including a governmental entity, a private non-profit organization, or a private for-profit organization, shall be considered to involve a "commercial purpose."

3. For purposes of subsection (b)(2), the quarantine requirements include those set forth in 9 C.F.R. Part 92, and 7 C.F.R. Chapter III. State quarantine laws are included as well.

4. When information is reasonably available, "market value" under subsection (b)(3)(A) shall be based on the fair-market retail price. Where the fair-market retail price is difficult to ascertain, the court may make a reasonable estimate using any reliable information, such as the reasonable replacement or restitution cost or the acquisition and preservation (e.g., taxidermy) cost. Market value, however, shall not be based on measurement of aesthetic loss (so called "contingent valuation" methods).

5. If the offense involved the destruction of a substantial quantity of fish, wildlife, or plants, and the seriousness of the offense is not adequately measured by the market value, an upward departure may be warranted.

Background: This section applies to violations of the Endangered Species Act, the Bald Eagle Protection Act, the Migratory Bird Treaty, the Marine Mammal Protection Act, the Wild Free- Roaming Horses and Burros Act, the Fur Seal Act, the Lacey Act, and to violations of 18 U.S.C. Ã‚Â§ 545 where the smuggling activity involved fish, wildlife, or plants.
Historical Note: Effective November 1, 1987. Amended effective January 15, 1988 (see Appendix C, amendment 41); November 1, 1989 (see Appendix C, amendments 209 and 210); November 1, 1991 (see Appendix C, amendment 407); November 1, 1992 (see Appendix C, amendment 452); November 1, 1995 (see Appendix C, amendment 534).

Click to expand...

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A little light reading for everyone. I would assume each turtle mailed would be considered a violation, so it potentially would be 6 violations, and from what I have read about mailing snakes, the receiver (ME!) would be subject to penalty as well for smuggling or as an accomplice to smuggling.


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## Itort (Mar 26, 2008)

I think some people have a problem with the concept of a contract (written or oral) or honor of their word. I wish him luck in the rest of his life with this attitude, he's going to need it bad.


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## Tatooineboy (Mar 26, 2008)

Itort said:


> I think some people have a problem with the concept of a contract (written or oral) or honor of their word. I wish him luck in the rest of his life with this attitude, he's going to need it bad.



See, this is the exact reason why it's a good idea to have a Seller/Breeder Comment section in our forums here. It will give other users an idea as to whom they are really dealing with.


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## JustAnja (Mar 26, 2008)

OK Im just going to post it all here, because he is really pi$$ing me off. 



> Subject: Message about: Adult Female Three Toed Box Turtles wanted
> ------------------------
> 
> From:
> ...



After this I quoted the regulations for him as well and told him I was not willing to take that chance. 



Im soooo irritated this morning now.


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## Tatooineboy (Mar 26, 2008)

Eek. Thats horrible. Sorry to read that, Anja.


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## JustAnja (Mar 26, 2008)

Does anyone see where I did or said anything wrong to this guy at all? I asked for a specific amount shipped to my zip code in the very beginning and I paid that amount. Does anyone honor their word anymore? Much less a written or verbal contract?


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## Tatooineboy (Mar 26, 2008)

No, you did nothing wrong so don't feel like you have.

This Andrew character is just trying to get more money out of you. I'm sure this isn't the first time he has done this, either. Less-experienced hobbyists have probably fallen for it but since you have been in this hobby, you know the ropes.

You called him on it and he didn't like it.


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## Itort (Mar 26, 2008)

Tatooineboy said:


> Itort said:
> 
> 
> > I think some people have a problem with the concept of a contract (written or oral) or honor of their word. I wish him luck in the rest of his life with this attitude, he's going to need it bad.
> ...


I agree with this sentiment. I have noticed on other forums I 
subscribe to with this feature it seems to work well. There is not a problem with members selling and warns of less then honorable vendors.


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