# Money + Pets



## Kymiie (Feb 16, 2010)

I put this in the the debatable topics, as I thought every one will have different opinons!

QUESTION: Should we pay to take someone elses tortoise/pet off their hands becuase they cannot keep their tortoise anymore becuase of whatever reasons?

MY OPINON: No, I dont think we should pay becuase most of the time I feel that we have to go fetch the pet ourselves, and also we are doing the right thing bringing the pet to a better home and also we will still have to pay out for food (no problem though) 
Although some reasons are acceptable, why buy a tortoise if you know things will change?

_ THIS TOPIC DOES NOT COMPARE TO BREEDING + SELLING & ALSO IT DOES NOT COMPARE TO PET SHOPS XD _


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## t_mclellan (Feb 16, 2010)

I think (but I could be wrong), The "Adoption fee" started with legitimate "Rehabilitators". These people would often take in an animal & give it what ever treatment or care it needed. Then after knowing the stability of the animal try to find a suitable home. This costs them $$.
Many Rehab's will inspect peoples homes & help with information when necessary. This costs them $$.
Rehab's are usually caring for more than just 1 animal at any given time. This costs them $$.

Personally I think a true "Rehabilitator" has a real need to cover the costs they incur!

Some privet pet owners & dealers have seen the "Adoption fee" as a nice way to get money (sometimes more than normal price) for animals they just don't want or cant sell!
This makes them $$.
I don't feel it is right or honest for anyone except a true "Rehabilitation" center / service / person to ask for that fee. 
Just because you cared for an animal for the last 4 years & want to get rid of it, Does not mean your "Adopting" the animal out! Your selling it! Face the facts!

Ok so they are MY facts based on in-depth research of MY own feelings on the subject!


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## GBtortoises (Feb 16, 2010)

In most cases when you answer an ad for adoption the people that are charging an "adoption" fee or a "rehoming" fee are simply selling the animals, period. Craigslist immediately comes to mind. The site does not allow animals to be sold so people simply list it with an adoption or rehoming fee to get around the phrase "for sale". I think everyone by now has realized that the "rehoming" fee is simply refers to the selling price. 

I see no problem with anyone trying to sell an animal (or anything else) that they bought, made or were given. They're trying to recupe some of the money they spent on the item or animal. It belongs to them so they have a right to do that if they wish. They also are within the right to get rid of it when they want to, however they want to as long as they are within the law when doing so. 

It's up to the interested persons descretion whether or not they want to pay for such an item or animal. If you don't want to pay for something just simply move on. 

Honest and licensced rehabilitation centers are different than an individual that is selling his or her pets. Such places often have a large number of animals that they are caring for and definitely put much more money into the care than they would ever get in back from charging an adoption fee. Here in the U.S. some states require that rehabilitator's must be licensed and some require animal handling and care classes. 

It's my opinion that both an individual and rehabilitation center have a right to charge whatever fee they feel necessary for an animal that was in their care. That animal becomes their property and/or responsibility at that time.


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## fifthdawn (Feb 16, 2010)

I think there should ALWAYS be a small fee, that way you know the person who picks it up is at least a partially responsible person.

Can you image if all rehome are free? Random people can pick it up just for whatever reason. Because it was free, they don't feel obligated to take proper care of it. If someone wanted to see how its like to have a tortoise, they can get a free rehome and if they don't like it, they can just release it anywhere. A person who paid at least a partial fee is most likely to know what they're doing and is more obligated in taking proper care of the pet, especially since they paid for it.

If someone was giving a free house away, I'd take it even if I don't plan to live in it. The same would apply for a lot of things that are free.


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## t_mclellan (Feb 16, 2010)

I think I should have explained my opinion better.
I agree with the "Ownership & sale there of" after all I sell the animals that I produce!
My issue is the words used. I think a Rehab using the terms "Re-home & Adoption" is fine, As that is what they are doing. I just think that I & others like me using those terms would be misleading at best Face it there are some charitable people in the world that are just a tad naive & would the subtleties in the add.
I'm also not in favor of using these terms to skirt the "Crags list" Thou shalt not sell animals here rule!


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## TylerStewart (Feb 16, 2010)

fifthdawn said:


> I think there should ALWAYS be a small fee, that way you know the person who picks it up is at least a partially responsible person.



If somebody really was just concerned for the welfare of the animal, they could find someone responsible to take it without having to charge a fee to prove anything. I understand this maybe with cats or rabbits or rats, where people will feed them to their snakes, but with a tortoise I don't think it really applies. 

To me, Craigslist has somewhat changed the meaning of the word "adoption." Like was said, it is simply a selling price. The screwy part is that it's not a set fee, or based on anything. Like if it "seems high," people flag it. If it doesn't "seem high" they leave it alone until the next bored animal rights nut flags it.


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## terryo (Feb 16, 2010)

I think that if someone has an animal that they legally own, it is their business if they want to sell it, or give it away. No one has to buy it if they don't want to. As far as legitimate rescues go, I think they should get a re-homing fee, even if it's a small one. They have the Vet bills they have to pay. When you get an animal from a shelter, that animal has all it's shots, and is altered. They have to pay for this. They have to buy food, pay the people who work there etc....


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## Kymiie (Feb 16, 2010)

I understand what your all saying but I was really just meaning ordinary people like me and you guys... not re homing shelters and other businesses of this sort!
xxx


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## Yvonne G (Feb 16, 2010)

I don't ever pay to take an animal off someone's hands. If they are trying to find a new home I let them know that I will be happy to take the animal and find it a new, safe and caring home, but it would have to be donated, as I don't pay for them. (And likewise, I don't sell them or charge an adoption fee)

But, having said that, it is anyone's right to sell his turtles and tortoises if he can no longer care for them. There's certainly nothing wrong with it.


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## TylerStewart (Feb 16, 2010)

emysemys said:


> (And likewise, I don't sell them or charge an adoption fee)



Like it or not, let me know when you want to sell me that pretty female leopard you were showing off a while back. My money is as green as anyone elses! Don't worry, I won't tell anyone you sold it to me.....


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## terryo (Feb 16, 2010)

Kymiie said:


> I understand what your all saying but I was really just meaning ordinary people like me and you guys... not re homing shelters and other businesses of this sort!
> xxx



OK Years ago I did some water turtle rescue. I helped out the local ASPCA, and two non-profit rescues that aren't around any more. I always tried to find homes with a pond, and also did a lot of leg work, but I never took any money and I put out a lot myself. I also just wanted to find a good home. I usually gave them a jar of food too. I also had a monkey from a black marked bust and I had her for a few years, before I could re-home her. I never took any money for that either. But...should people take money? I think it's all according to the circumstances. IMHO...we can't judge people unless we are in their shoes.


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## Kymiie (Feb 16, 2010)

GOSH No way in any sort am i judgeing anyone for this, all I was asking was what do you think!
EXAMPLE I would not pay my friend the price she paid for her tortoise because of her work commitments and can no longer have it!... end of day you have to think about this befor you get any pet!
Although I would have the tortoise for a little price if she needed money!
xx


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## alfiethetortoise (Feb 16, 2010)

I think that taking a tortoise as a 'rescue' there is nothing wrong with being reimbursed for the 'cost' of looking after the tortoise yourself. Why should you have to pay because someone else doesn't or cannot take care of their tortosie any more? Especially if money is an issue, iand f it isn't then maybe it's a different story but again there wouldbe nothing wrong with reimbursing yourself.

Sometimes things just change. And my circumstance would have to change a lot to have to let Alfie go. But if i had to find her a new home, i would want a bit less than the going rate i paid for her (Ã‚Â£200 including the enclosure).I dont think that's unreasonable - but everyone is entitled to their opinnion


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## chadk (Feb 16, 2010)

In our area we have lots of pet flippers. They pose as wanting to adopt for a perm. home, but really just want you to give it away so they can re-sell for a profit. Some are just craiglist junkies and others are actual pet stores looking for more stock to sell. So asking a 'rehoming' fee helps keep these guys away. 

What many do is advertise a re-homing fee, then after they meet and get to know them and get some trust going, they remove the fee.


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## Meg90 (Feb 16, 2010)

So you are saying, that if I lost my apartment, and therefore had no place to keep my three tortoises, that I should just give them away to the first person that says "hey, I'LL take em, and I'm doing YOU a favor, so you can suck dirt, and I'll keep my coin----oh, but I'll give them a really good home, so its fine"

I have poured alot of emotion into my three, let ALONE cash, with two of them being 200$ alone for their purchase price. You can bet your boots if ANYTHING happened to me, and it was *impossible* for me to keep them that there would be an adoption fee.

Would you just give Crush and his enclosure away if you had to?

See ya later buddy, hope this person really IS serious since they aren't WILLING to pay a dime?

*Free animals are garbage animals*. If it is in need of a vet--who cares. Didn't cost any money, so why start paying now?

There's a differece to how people think about animals if they have been given them, or have had to work their butts off earning them.

Do you think Terryo, Maggie, or Chewbecca, or RedFootNerd--would just GIVE their tortoises away if it came to that?


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## stells (Feb 16, 2010)

I have paid for unwell tortoises three times now.... i have a choice... to pay or not too....

It all started with Bud (Horsfield)... he was kept in a tiny viv... fed on fruit... no suppliments... hardly any substrate.... never been outside... and came to me needing treatment for protozoa... Ã‚Â£100 paid for him... 

Then there is Frisbee (Hermanns) probably the worst out of the three....... again tiny viv... no suppliments... fed fruit cabbage and pellets... no water... no outside time... no UV source... came from a friend... whom i paid Ã‚Â£50... so she could get her cat neutered... two animals helped... he came to me extremely flat... unable to keep his man parts in place... and couldn't walk on his back end...

Then lastly the latest.... Daisy (Horsfield).... eyes shut... no history on her whatsoever.... Ã‚Â£30... traveled for 5 hours near enough to bring her home...

Some think i am mad.... i probably am... and its not something i could do continuously... BUT if i can get a few out of a bad situation... so be it...

All these animals are still with me and will be til either my time or their time is up.... they are all doing well... Frisbee has regained use of his back end... Bud absolutely full of character... and Daisy i have just started with..

To many people just want a free tortoise.... and if i hadn't paid for these where would they be now?


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## Meg90 (Feb 16, 2010)

Here here Stells! You do good work. Its like Eglantine, my rescued box. She didn't even know what fruit was when I got her.

Bottom line is if you want to rescue, OR to get a new pet, you should be ready and WILLING to pay the price for them. If it is advertised as free, that's great. But telling someone to MAKE their pet free, is crass.


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## alfiethetortoise (Feb 16, 2010)

I agree with Meg and Stells, if your willing to pay, your going to be wiling to give the tortoise the best possible home  free tortoises will attract people who will not care for them properly!


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## chadk (Feb 16, 2010)

"free animals are garbage animals"

Really???

That is pretty harsh language. Makes me want to join PETA 

Many of my animals were 'free' and they are just as much part of my animal family as those I payed for. My dog was free off CL. 2 sullies were free. 2 of my boxies were free. One of my russian torts was free. One of my Leo gecko's was free. My Mexican Boa was free. And none of them are "garbage"....

I've also given away animals to the RIGHT person. Others i've sold for a reasonable 're-homing' fee. But I'm always careful about who gets them.


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## Meg90 (Feb 16, 2010)

Free animals are treated like garbage Chad. You don't change my mind on that. They are throwaways. I've seen it SO MANY TIMES. People don't CARE if it gets sick, or stops eating or dies, because they didn't invest anything into it. You are animal minded, as I am. But most people are NOT. What about the mother that just forced her son to kill his hamster with a hammer because his grades slipped, and he needed to be punished? Obviously that animal meant nothing to her.

If you had to rehome them, you'd post them all as FREE then, since that's how you got them?

Don't give me that "right person" spheel and then say you still believe in no rehoming fees. There's a line, and there are always exceptions. I've even cut PRICES when I am selling geckos, if the person can prove to me that they are a proper, loving home, and deserve the break.

But do you think I would EVER make a posting on CL and say "Two FREE CB tortoises! First come, first serve!"

No. And neither would you. You can't have it both ways.


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## TylerStewart (Feb 16, 2010)

Meg90 said:


> I have poured alot of emotion into my three, let ALONE cash, with two of them being 200$ alone for their purchase price. You can bet your boots if ANYTHING happened to me, and it was *impossible* for me to keep them that there would be an adoption fee.



So basically, you'd be selling them, right? Or would this be called "adoption" since you were using Craigslist? 

My point was, if someone wanted to find a suitable home for their tortoise, and was not trying to get money out of it, why screw with Craigslist at all? There's plenty of people on this forum more than willing to give them a good home, or people you know and can check with (unless you have absolutely no social or family life). If you're adding a fee in order to "recover" your cost, you're "re-selling" it.


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## Meg90 (Feb 16, 2010)

TylerStewart said:


> There's plenty of people  on this forum more than willing to give them a good home.



You are not talking general public Tyler, like the rest of us are. Would I give one of my Greeks to Robyn? Yeah. Would I give one to JoeBlow who I know NOTHING about? NO.

There is a difference here. 

Would you give away a tortoise? That's what I wanna know. Where are your free animals?


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## TylerStewart (Feb 16, 2010)

Meg90 said:


> You are not talking general public Tyler, like the rest of us are. Would I give one of my Greeks to Robyn? Yeah. Would I give one to JoeBlow who I know NOTHING about? NO.
> 
> There is a difference here.
> 
> Would you give away a tortoise? That's what I wanna know. Where are your free animals?



There's nothing wrong with selling them, Meg, just quit calling it an adoption. If you are unable to keep them, then adopt them out at no cost. If you want to make a buck in the process, then sell them. 

No I wouldn't give away a tortoise. If I had a tortoise that I wasn't able to keep, I'd _sell_ it, but that's just the capitalist in me. There's nothing wrong with that. Heaven forbid someone make some money on an animal.


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## GBtortoises (Feb 16, 2010)

I don't agree with the statement that "free animals are garbage animals" either. I've got a few here that I've been given that were (and still are) strong, healthy, very normal animals that I have no intention of ever parting with. That's not to say that some animals that people are trying to unload are always in good health or have normal growth. In some cases that is why the people are trying to unload them! But most people that I have run across are giving an animal away because their circumstances no longer allows them to keep that animal. Whether it be because of living conditions, financial or other reasons. In alot of cases it's been a pet purchased for child who of course loses interest and the parent ended up taking care of the animal and no longer wants to have to. An irresponsible act to begin with maybe, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the animal was not properly cared for.


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## Meg90 (Feb 16, 2010)

I have three animals in my keeping alone that were children's pets. All three have problems. Parents know better. Its not a real shocker that your 6 year old doesn't want to clean the hamster cage, or the litter box. They KNOW that they will be doing most of the caregiving. Its not an excuse to dump an animal, or to refuse to take care of it, because its your KID'S pet.

Go on Craigslist--or petfinder, and tell me how properly cared for reptiles you see. For every properly rehomed animal, there are several put up just to dump them off because no one wants to deal with them anymore. Half of the owners do not care what will happen to them, because they were a problem to begin with.


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## chadk (Feb 16, 2010)

Meg90 said:


> Free animals are treated like garbage Chad. You don't change my mind on that. They are throwaways. I've seen it SO MANY TIMES. People don't CARE if it gets sick, or stops eating or dies, because they didn't invest anything into it. You are animal minded, as I am. But most people are NOT. What about the mother that just forced her son to kill his hamster with a hammer because his grades slipped, and he needed to be punished? Obviously that animal meant nothing to her.
> 
> If you had to rehome them, you'd post them all as FREE then, since that's how you got them?
> 
> ...



So in some cases, animals are treated as garbage - whether they got them for free, or paid a bundle. And in some cases, animals are treated great, regardless of whether or not they were free or cost a bundle.

I'm not suggesting that it would be fine to put your tort in a box on the corner with a 'free' sign. Or list it like that on CL. But "free to good home" is a reasonable thing to do. You ask questions, ask for pics of the home, maybe even visit the new home, and screen how you see fit.

I've know situations where people paid good money for an animal, then felt they hat a 'right' to abuse it since they paid money and it is now their 'property'. Fee or Free does not a 'garbage pet' make...


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## fifthdawn (Feb 16, 2010)

Usually you can tell if someone is selling their animal or rehoming it. Rehoming fees should never be anywhere close to the original price of the animal. It should be low enough where you're not trying to profit, but high enough so that you feel comited to the animal and not just throwing change away to experiment around with new pets.

Yes, its true that people treat animals certain ways regardless of whether or not its free, but every event is about likelihood. By adding a small reasonable rehoming fee, you decrease the chances of it going to just anybody who wants free things, its a preventative measure.

An alternative to rehome fee is if you can see proof of their animal experience and maybe know a little about the buyer, but this isn't always the case and can't always be the case, which I think rehoming fee can be justified.

I've adopted animals in the past but I never mind paying for it. The price is always only about 15-20% of its market value. Even so, part of that 15-20% is gas money since they delivered it to my home which I feel is reasonable.


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## alfiethetortoise (Feb 16, 2010)

I aquired my rabbit through a rehoming service offered by my local petshop. The rabbit was free. However, i paid for a large indoor cage and Ruby is very well cared for and loved here with us. I guess that the same could easily happen with a tortoise or that theoretically, someone could have picked her up, and put her in a pie. 

Circumstances DO change, all the time, often through no fault of the owner. Our rabbit is Ava's really, but she is not yet two, so obviously its me who does all the work, but that doesnt mean she cant put food into the dish, water in the bottle, sawdust in the cage etc.

If i had to sell Aflie, i would. Perhaps i would give her away if my circumstances were different, but i would certainly give a much reduced price to someone i knew would care for her properly...


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## GBtortoises (Feb 16, 2010)

I can definitely say that over the years I've gotten some of worst cared for animals from big time reptile dealers who charge premium prices for the animals that are dehydrated, often filthy and usually crawling with parasites. 
On the other hand I have 2.1 Russian tortoises that a lady gave to me, along with all of their equipment, about 5 years ago. When I got to her home I was impressed with how well she had them set up. They were, big, healthy, heavy and extremely active! Even though they were advertised as "free to someone who knew how to care for them", I offered to pay for them and she declined. She told me that the _only_ reason that she was getting rid of them was because her daughter was going off to college and being a single mom she could not afford, nor did she have the time because of work, to care for the tortoises and the ferrets that she was giving away also. I still have 1.1 of them and "donated" one of the males to a local school for a sixth grade class to have. The teacher is into animals and along with the tortoise they also have Bearded Dragons (who are constantly producing babies), a couple of aquatic turtles, frogs & giant millipedes.
So again, I don't think that all "free animals are garbage". Sometimes it's just people's circumstances that force them to get rid of a pet and some people would rather give it away to someone who will care for it the way that they did or better. Money isn't always the driving force.

And yes Meg you're right, parents know better, or at least they _should_. But that's not always the case. Some parents don't give a thought beyond buying the animal in order to please the child. I'm not saying that it's right or responsible, but it's a fact of life that can't be changed. We're not all the same, we don't all think the same and we don't all have the same set of responsibilities, judgement or values. There are also plenty of parents that are fully aware from the start of who may ultimately end up taking care of the animal in the long run and do. 

There are lots of animals listed on Craigslist and other websites that people are getting rid of. I don't dispute that. But I'm not sure by simply seeing an ad for a free animal how you can determine that it's "garbage". Not all free animal ads exist because "no one wants to deal with them anymore". Many are because of changes in someone's situation that doesn't allow for them to have the animals anymore. Some people advertise them for sale, some people advertise them for free. I don't see how that distinguishes a difference in the quality of the animal whatsoever.


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## Kymiie (Feb 16, 2010)

MEG 90:
Dont get so agressive towards me, no I wouldnt just give crush to anyone, I would make sure that everything is suitable. When we sell puppies we make sure the new owners have a suitable home and we check on them for a year!

If I was to find out the living enviroment was suitable..yes I would let him go for free. This wasnt a thread designed at any1, it was one I thought of and ask for opinions and its just getting out of hand!!

xx


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## fifthdawn (Feb 16, 2010)

I think you guys misinterpreted what Meg meant by "garbage" animals. I don't think she was implying that if its free, its of low quality.

I think what she meant was the person that buys it is likely to view the animal as garbage. If the animal gets sick, why take it to the vet? I got the pet for free anyways.


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## TylerStewart (Feb 16, 2010)

Kymiie said:


> MEG 90:
> Dont get so agressive towards me



Meg gets aggressive quickly. I think there's not enough red meat in her diet.


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## BethyB1022 (Feb 16, 2010)

I would disagree with the free animals are treated like garbage statement. It seems too overarching. I've always cared for my animals that I have gotten for free, because I am an animal lover and and that's what I'll do, and I have certainly never thought of a free animal as a throwaway pet. Unfortunately, not everyone cares for their pets to the best of their ability and I think that is the way regardless of whether or not they paid for it. It's sad but the way things are sometimes.

As far as adoption fees go I have been told that it is better to charge one in terms of small animals. For example, when one of my bunnies had babies I was advised to charge an adoption fee because I didn't want them to be used as feeders for snakes, etc... Same with when I had a litter of baby rats. Luckily I was able to place the babies with people we knew so I felt confident that they were going to good homes. But if I had resorted to placing an ad I would have asked for a fee, just to deter people who may have wanted to feed them to their pets. That is because I wanted the bunnies to be pets, because that was my vision for them.

In my opinion as long as a fee is reasonable I don't see a problem with it.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Feb 16, 2010)

When they want $200 dollars to adopt a redfoot that they cant take care of... Yes its wrong for them to ask that!


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## egyptiandan (Feb 16, 2010)

I'm getting in on this late  but I have a feeling when people use the word "adopt" they are pulling at heart strings to get their animal sold. The word adopt always seems to melt people, no matter how much the person is charging. I'm sure most of the people that use that are trying to sell their animal faster.

Danny


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## GBtortoises (Feb 16, 2010)

Yep! Absolutely agreed, "Adopt" and "Re-home" have become feel good words for "I want to sell". 

The exception to that may be when you're talking about a legitimate rehabilitator or adoption organization whose motive is to place animals into qualified homes. They truly are adopting the animal out, even if there is a fee. They take in unwanted animals, ensure that they are in good health and then attempt to find them homes. They aren't in it for profit but must be able to cover some of their costs to continue on with other animals in the future.


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## chadk (Feb 16, 2010)

DoctorCosmonaut said:


> When they want $200 dollars to adopt a redfoot that they cant take care of... Yes its wrong for them to ask that!



Why? Isn't it a free market thing? If nobody is willing to pay that, then he'll lower the price. If someone is willing to pay that, then what is the issue? Don't understand why this is a problem.


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## fifthdawn (Feb 16, 2010)

GBtortoises said:


> Yep! Absolutely agreed, "Adopt" and "Re-home" have become feel good words for "I want to sell".
> 
> The exception to that may be when you're talking about a legitimate rehabilitator or adoption organization whose motive is to place animals into qualified homes. They truly are adopting the animal out, even if there is a fee. They take in unwanted animals, ensure that they are in good health and then attempt to find them homes. They aren't in it for profit but must be able to cover some of their costs to continue on with other animals in the future.



Hows it different than someone "rehoming" their pet they can no longer care for, and charging a fee not for profit, just to cover cost of vet care? The only difference between an organization and a single person who can't care for the pet is a sign or name outside their building.

I don't think everyone thats on craigslist who wants to rehome their pet is as heartless as we think. Like any adoption agency, CLers also have an unwanted pet, want them to have good health, hence the vet fee for rehome, and I would image also wanting them to go to a good home.


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## GBtortoises (Feb 16, 2010)

fifthdawn said:


> GBtortoises said:
> 
> 
> > Yep! Absolutely agreed, "Adopt" and "Re-home" have become feel good words for "I want to sell".
> ...




What I meant by the "exception" (which didn't come out that way) was that rehabilitators and adoption organizations charge a fee, in part to cover the cost of their expenses for care, medication etc... An individual that is using the terms "adoption" and "re-homing" is as Danny stated and I believe also, trying to "soften" the fact that they're asking an outright sale price for the animal. I guess if you want to look at it in the purest sense the individual and the adoption organization are both selling the animal, but I believe with different motives in mind. The individual is looking to get his money back to stick in his pocket and be rid of the burden of caring for the animal. The adoption organization is looking to also cover their costs for care but with a different motive in mind. They aren't in it for profit, but for funds to sustain and continue their work with animals. 


I do not disagree with either motive. In fact I completely agree with both and think that both are fully justified in charging what they feel that they're service or animal is worth. 

I also agree that not all CLer's and those on other sites doing the same is heartless. Not by any stretch of the imagination. If you check out my story about the Russian tortoises that is farther up this thread you'll see that I completely agree. I found someone who simply could not financially care for her tortoises but was at the time doing a great job with them. She gave them to me for free, even though I offered to pay for them. She simply wanted to know that they were going to be cared for properly. Yeah, there's alot of slimeballs getting freebies or cheapies and trying to re-sell them to make a few more bucks. But in general I think most are probably decent people that just can't care for the animals any longer for any number of reasons.

I think the original premise of this thread was that people who don't uphold their commitment to the animals shouldn't be allowed to sell them, but should be giving them away to someone who can care for them. As I stated initially, I think they have every right to sell, trade or give their animals away as they see fit since they are the rightful owners.


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## Meg90 (Feb 16, 2010)

Kymiie--You posted the link to this thread in a for-sale post, and then told the person you were not willing to pay for her animals. Why is it acceptable to expect her to do so, when you wouldn't do it yourself? I'm just curious as to the logic here, since she is a new member and does not know anyone on this site yet. You said you would want to get to know the person--how willing do you think you'd be if you were charging a modest rehoming fee for Crush, and the first email someone sent was saying they'd only take him if he was free? Would you really want to talk more?

Alfiethetortoise said she paid Ã‚Â£200 for Alfie, and this woman was only charging Ã‚Â£300 for two CB Russians and their enclosures.

IMO that for sale posting is what sparked this entire thread, and the resounding mess.


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## Madortoise (Feb 16, 2010)

I tend to agree with Meg on this in terms of how people perceive the worth of animal.
Let me elaborate my point...when people do not pay (by money, with pain or by effort) they are generally not emotionally invested in the object (pet/love object or in the relationship). It's a simple psychology. Whatever you call it--adoption, rehoming or the special de jour sale--when it comes out of their wallet, it helps for people to commit to something they expect something out of... unless money means nothing to the person. It they don't at least go out of trouble, they don't expect much and don't care much. Should something happen to that animal, the person could possibly say "oh, well...it was free after all and I didn't lose much." It sort of sets up a priority or power dynamics, if you will, within one's psyche on what's important and not. 
BTW -- This is where generous "understanding" women often get screwed and the bitches get their way with men!


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## Kymiie (Feb 17, 2010)

Meg 90!
I did not post the link to the thread!
It was not aimed at her!
I only put that becuase she was asking how much I was willing to pay... and this thread said it all rather than me explaining again! Sorry you think that but it is cirtainly not aimed at her... actually my example got me thinking as my friend is selling hers, then I came across that thread and I thought why? I wounder what others think of this!

So no you couldnt of got it more wrong. Same with crush.. your taking it all in the opposite direction to what I was going in!


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## Meg90 (Feb 17, 2010)

Kymiie said:


> Well as you may or may not no, have just posted a thread (money+pets) thats all about how i think we shouldnt have to pay for animals when poeple like youselfs find yourself struggeling to look after them. So basically I wouldnt want to pay for them, but also obviosuly they need a new home so how low would you go?
> xx
> 
> My email is also [email protected]
> If you could e-mail me some photos and the enclosure thankx x





this is from this thread: http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-12405-post-109797.html#pid109797

And you posted this "Money and Pets" thread after two interactions with the owner of those Russians.

I don't understand how this thread is not in correlation with that one, unless you are calling it just a biiig coincidence. Of course, thats just MO.


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## alfiethetortoise (Feb 17, 2010)

Kymiie said:


> my example got me thinking as my friend is selling hers, then I came across that thread and I thought why? I wonder what others think of this!




I think that Kymiie has already said that post is what prompted her thoughts, but that the thread was not aimed at the woman....


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## Kymiie (Feb 17, 2010)

The thread was not aimed at anyone, I have apologised to that lady becuase of what you said!
I was not asking for her tortoises to be free, and I have explained this to her in a PM! I was willing to pay as I know she may have needed some money with her being a studant, but I was not going to pay 300!

I was genuinely enquiring about the russians as I wanted to be a good person and help out someone, and she lives in the UK I thought this would be good. As far as im concerned you have made this thread an argument, and your over reacting. 

For anybodys information if they would like to know... or not because they hate me (if this is the case, say so and Ill leave... its obviouse meg thinks i cause problems on this forum)
I now have got my friends tortoise and set up, and yes I paid but only Ã‚Â£50! I got him so cheap.. does this mean I wont look after him.. NOOOO! He comes home with me sunday XD and danielle will be able to visit when she gets home from uni.

xxx


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## Yvonne G (Feb 17, 2010)

I think its time for Kimiie and Meg to step back and settle down. No one can know what is in another person's mind and its not up to us here on the forum to either criticize or look down upon other members and the way we do things with our animals. 

This is why I hate the debatable topics threads. There's always someone who gets their feelings hurt. Why is it so hard for one side to say this is what I think and this is what I would do. Then the other side come back and say, ok I see what you think and what you would do, but I don't agree, and here's how I think and would do it. 

A debate isn't supposed to be one side changing the mind of the other side. It both sides getting their view across. Just because the other side doesn't come back and say, "Oh wow! Of course you are right. I'm going to change my way of thinking right now!" doesn't give anyone the right to start an argument or call names or demean the other side's viewpoint.

If you are a volatile type of personality, and you get your feelings hurt easily, may I suggest you stay off the debatable topics and stick with safer issues. And I'm not talking to any one person. I'm talking to all of us.


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## Kymiie (Feb 17, 2010)

I agree with you Yvonne, and as I say this was only meant to be a simple thread, but meg does have strong opinions but also addresses them in the wrong way in which gives others the wrong way of reading it! Also at the begining of the thread I put that I wasnt sure weather to put it in this topic XD

WE ALL ON THIS FORUM GET CARRIED AWAY AT SOME POINT, but as I say we get over it and still help each other out where possible.

xx


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## Meg90 (Feb 17, 2010)

Nice.  You are obviously absolutely, 100% correct and I was wrong. Wrong way of phrasing, looking at it. Yep. Wrong.

I'm glad you're learning so much here Kymiie, from right and wrong I mean.


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## Kymiie (Feb 17, 2010)

Clear sarcasm right?


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## Madortoise (Feb 17, 2010)

Okay, mods. It's time to lock this thread.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I agree with Yvonne completely on allowing others to disagree and stay civil while acknowledging the differences. Not every differences have to turn into a blood-shedding war.
This thread could have been more about interesting exchange of ideas and opinions. And, it's MO that sarcasm does not belong in the debatable topic section or anywhere else on the forum.


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## Shelly (Feb 19, 2010)

GBtortoises said:


> Craigslist immediately comes to mind. The site does not allow animals to be sold



I have sold animals on Craigslist many times without problems.


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## GBtortoises (Feb 19, 2010)

I should have been more specific about what I was referring to:

Craigslist does not allow live animals to be sold in the Community section under "pets". Which is where almost all pets for "rehoming" or "adoption" with a fee are listed. Very few are usually listed in the for sale section where it is allowed to offer them for sale. Those listing them in the unpermitted areas, regardless of what they call the transaction are selling them. Ads selling pets get noticed faster in the pets section, not in the general for sale area. 

I didn't mean to imply that animals cannot be sold at all on Craigslist, but that most of the sellers are using the terms "re-home" and "adoption fee" to skirt the fact that they are simply selling the animals. Those first two terms are feel good words that give the appearance of not sounding so cold about selling an animal. IMO



Shelly said:


> GBtortoises said:
> 
> 
> > Craigslist immediately comes to mind. The site does not allow animals to be sold
> ...


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## Jacqui (Feb 22, 2010)

Kymiie said:


> QUESTION: Should we pay to take someone elses tortoise/pet off their hands becuase they cannot keep their tortoise anymore becuase of whatever reasons?



I think it depends on exactly why you are taking the animal. Is it an animal you really want or one your just taking in because you know it needs to find a home and you can give it one? Is it a true rescue or just a rehome? Like everything in life, for me it a situation type thing, not a clear cut and dried rule.

I have to say, for me Meg's comment on free animals being garbage, rubbed me wrong. If your mind set is for an animal to be "garbage" in the end it won't matter if you paid a lot of money for it, a little money, or got it for free. I have saw folks who spent thousands for an animal, then turned around and let it starve to death. On the other hand, folks who took a "free" animal in and then spent a small fortune to try to save the animal.

I have myself bought animals, paid adoption fees, and gotten them for free. Once they come into my home, they get the best I can give them. That being said, as I sit here and type this I realized something about me. Even tho, they all get the best I can give them, it seems like the ones whom folks have been given to me are the ones I stay more worried about. It's like that by giving me the animals, those folks have given me a higher level of trust, a trust that I don't want to break. So in a way, those animals mean more to me, then the ones I paid money for. There is maybe an emotional fee, for lack of a better term, that is constantly and steadily being paid, rather then exchanging money and having a more clear cut and dried "it's my animal to do what I wish with" mentality.


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## Matty5974 (Feb 23, 2010)

I am a part of a Wildlife Resue and Education Group and have taken 4 Torts in from people that have lost interest or could not handle them anymore.

In my opinioin the people that are donating them to a group are looking for knowledable people to care for them long term. They are more concerned with the animal rather than the $$.

On the other hand some people really feel that they have invested a lot in their animal and need to get something out of it. I do not agree with it but can see where they are coming.


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## dreadyA (Feb 24, 2010)

Wow, some people have problems being able to control their emotions...

Anyway, I had an emergency that forced me to put my Redfoot for adoption. HE WAS FREE to a loving and knowlegdable home!
Our own forum member, Dmmj, was the lucky folk that got to take him home. I wasnt looking to make a buck. he was on the pricy side, but all i really wanted was for him to have a great home. I know he went to a good home.
Now, if i were to have advertised on craigslist, i would have played 21 questions with the potential adoptees!


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