# Philosophical Differences In Tortoise Keeping



## Tom (Dec 18, 2013)

Question: Should we strive to give our tortoises "optimal" conditions all the time, or should we purposefully inflict some of the hardships of the wild upon them? Somewhere in between maybe?

The natural range of every species experiences a wide variety of temperature and weather extremes. Storms, seasons, and just the normal day to day weather variation. Obviously wild tortoises have been adapting to deal with these elements for a very long time and are largely successful (as a species) at persevering. But can we argue that some days in the wild feature "optimal" conditions for health and growth, while other days offer conditions that are in some extreme cases barely survivable? I think we can. Clearly some days are "better" for the tortoise than others, but are the "bad" days necessary?

We've had the hibernation debate her many times. Not looking to fan those flames again, but it illustrates an example of what I'm talking about. It gets cold, weather is unfavorable for enough days in a row and the days begin to shorten, and our temperate species duck underground to avoid the cold of the coming winter. Seems like a pretty good survival system, but would you call those cold winter days "optimal" tortoise conditions? Is there some harm to the tortoise if our captive days stay warm, long and sunny? Is there a downside to prolonged "good" days for some species? For any species?

How about a sulcata? They have a wet season with lots of puddles and marshes to drink from, green food growing everywhere, and high humidity. Obviously they eat a lot and grow a lot during these times and I would consider those conditions "optimal". This lasts for 3-4 months and then the hot desiccating dry season sets in. The tortoises stay in their underground burrows during this time to avoid the extreme heat and dryness. I would refer to these conditions as less than optimal. Now obviously the tortoises do just fine out there with all the factors that go along with wild living, but do they "NEED" us to simulate these harsh conditions for them on purpose in captivity? Is it a bad thing for captive hatchlings to have all good days and few or no "bad" ones? Is this different for adults vs. hatchlings? Do those among us who know the most about wild habitats really know enough to successfully simulate this? How many bad days a week should they have and why? Or maybe we don't break it down by days, but instead we have "bad" months at certain times of the year, and "good" months at others.

To use leopard tortoises as an example: During the rainy seasons it is warm and humid. Good conditions for carapace growth. When its rainy there is an abundance of food, and so the resultant tortoise growth happens in good conditions. In drier times there is less food, so less growth during unfavorable tortoise growing conditions. Should we be doing annual wet and dry seasons for them, with an abundance of food during the humid times and a lack of food during the dry times?

How much of the wild should we attempt to simulate? Or maybe WHICH elements of the wild should we be attempting to simulate, and which elements should we protect our tortoises from? Another example: I've seen a study, and heard by word of mouth, that a common food element for wild leopard tortoises if mammal feces. Mostly ungulates, but also carnivores when the opportunity presents itself. I have access to as much African ungulate and lion or hyena feces as I want, but I am pretty comfortable NOT simulating this aspect of the wild. Likewise, sulcata are known to eat carrion when they happen to find it. Should I toss the occasional dead animal in for my tortoises to eat? Am I doing them a disservice if I don't?


I think many of the arguments here on TFO boil down to these elements. I am curious as to where people fall on this spectrum and why. For me personally that pendulum has swung both ways. I started out trying to offer my tortoises the best of everything, according to my definition of "best" at the time. As time went on I moved to more "extreme" methods in an attempt to follow "expert" advice and grow a smooth sulcata using more "natural" methods. I skipped feeding days, fed lightly, and eliminated grocery store greens, and had them outside in the sun all day every day, weather permitting, but they still pyramided. This taught me that I was still missing some element of whatever happens in the wild for them, since the wild ones don't pyramid like our captives. My tortoises had some pretty hungry days, but never seemed sick or unhealthy in any way. They survived these days, but were these days "good" for them? It took me a few years and a lot of help, but I figured out the missing element was water. Nowadays, I offer babies all good days. I simulate what my current view of what is "natural" for hatchlings based on what I have learned about the wild and what I have observed with all of my experiments. I see no benefit to depriving tropical species of the best conditions I can offer. Would a series of good days or weeks or months in the wild be "bad" for a wild tortoise? I think not. Do they "NEED" some bad days for health reasons? Not in my experience.


How do you decide WHICH elements of the wild to try to duplicate and which elements to skip?


This turned out to be a multitude of questions, but I'd love to hear opinions on this one way, or the other.


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## Barista5261 (Dec 18, 2013)

On the point of raising Sulcatas:

Even though my two younglings are my first two (of many [FACE WITH STUCK-OUT TONGUE AND WINKING EYE]) tortoises, I knew they came from Africa, and that there are wet and dry seasons there. Since it is so important for them to have water and be in a humid environment growing up, I think when we keep them in closed chambers to ensure the proper temps and humidity, that is an extended wet/rainy season of sorts. Then when they are old/big enough to live outside all the time (weather permitting), that then becomes their dry(ish) season, when humidity isn't nearly as important as it is when they are still small. It'll still be warm, bright and sunny, somewhat humid, but not as much as a closed chamber. Granted, I live in Florida and sometimes during the summer it will get to be "closed chamber conditions" outside during the day [FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY] 

I personally do not see any need to inflict any hardships on hatchlings, I want my hatchlings to have the best possible chance to grow up and be a big and healthy moving bulldozer. 

I hope this makes sense to everyone, it at least did to me in my head [FACE WITH STUCK-OUT TONGUE AND WINKING EYE]


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## edwardbo (Dec 18, 2013)

Tom,I'm thinking.i don't have the time to go in depth, ....as I read your post some things came to mind...... Skiing...is that a great place to live,the better the skiing the more inhospitable to living but people go up dangerous mountains to have more exciting skiing..maybe the Sulcatas crave something in the environment of bad days,it could be the safest place for their young or the easiest places to dig dens.like I've said before ,there is a price to pay for everything,good digging great place to raise their hatchlings........Florida,good place for for the elderly,(no long cold season)but the summers are a killer......I'm feeing a thought...guys work out ,lift weights ,and it hurts they have to rest to heal and get bigger.runners run long distances ,very hard on the body,all runners will suffer injuries ,but they love that heroin like high.....so, bad days muscles sore,good days ,girls want more sex and other men envy........race cars go fast,full out but lots of pit stops to repair damage of full out.....people live in New York to make lots of money but it's dirty,cramped and dangerous.....I often ask Brazilians if it really is better here,picturing lush palm trees ,space and a more relaxed atmosphere ......this is reducing down to choices,what you see as bad days is seeming to be the place where things work the best for torts in the big picture.I don't see nature as harsh I see it as a well tuned ,very long process that is beautiful. ....deliver a human baby,,,,it is bloody,painful and scary for both the mother and infant (there is a reason )but people keep having baby's and who would say a baby is not beautiful ?....did you see in the French post about the gulars(sp ) being so long the males have to hold their head to one side ,is that bad?,it's a good day if the male with the biggest gulars overturns a rival and gets to mate and spread his DNA .(reminds me of boobs,big boobs get girls lots of attention but they can't be the most comfortable things to lug around for decades)so,maybe nothing is perfect,and respectfully,who are you to say what things should have with your interpretation of"good days".


Not finished yet(I hit a preview button and could not get post back).......maybe this thing called life. is meant to play out over very long periods of time. I have so much to say but not the time to formulate .....I'll talk about the pyramiding; there is something about captive conditions that stimulate pyramiding,and humid chambers prevents it from manifesting,could it be maybe too many good days?is there a reason that wild Sulcatas rest so much (maybe the body recognizes the problem and is able to smooth it out in that state of torpor ).......the problem is as I see it the hot lights toast the keratin in to hard little lumps .that continue to grow up into more hard lumps..I'm sorry but I have amillion thing going on around me and none of them am I doing well ,including writing about good days and bad days....But I have plenty more to say ....later .....love your feisty ness tom.much love.


Aren't we all playing god with our torts.?..


Where I live trees lose there leaves,is that a bad day.?winter comes and it's long and cold ,the trees REST,is that bad days.?....some one wrote about how they love/ hate their snooze button...do they love getting up for a new day or do they love sleeping and being lazy a little longer?do they hate facing a new day or wasting time sleeping....I can't leave this alone........tell me to go away???does anyone keep grandis ?why don't peps love yellow foots more than red foots .?....I'm losing it...


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## ascott (Dec 18, 2013)

> Should we strive to give our tortoises _"optimal"_ conditions all the time, or should we purposefully _inflict_ some of the hardships of the wild upon them?



Tom, you should know by now that I have great respect for that noodle of yours . I love that this thread has noodled its way from your dome....

I believe that sometimes the way we interpret "optimal" and "inflict" will decide what we find as a helpful buffer...I currently host CDTs, which you know are tortoise that have a very regimented life...now, likely they are this way due to a gazillion years of, well, evolutionary variables (and for some folks, please lets not get stuck on the "evolutionary" word). 

While folks share their beliefs that their natural behavior are all derived purely due to survival needs...and to a great extinct this is likely the largest truth....however, there are likely drives and needs that are more so than strictly physical....rest is a huge time for restore and revive time....so I believe that each and every part of their life is just as important as the other and to leave out any part (especially such a large part) can be detrimental to their overall physical and mental state...that the time of rest is sincerely as important as their active time....

I would imagine that if the tort had to be "on" all year then they would not be utilizing the cycle they have developed into. I know that there is a drive to do the things they have been designed to do...now, yes there are times we have to improvise to the best of our knowledge (which in the realm of life is minimal knowledge) and to offer the best area we can derive...but in no way will our areas be as good as if they had miles to muck about in....days to race to the sun, race to the food, race to the shade, race to the babes, race back to safety before night falls and all that creep out with that night fall....all important functions, at least in my opinion.

I am always amazed with observation of the torts here....and I often wonder how awesome it must have been for them to have done this wild race before they were stricken from their land....and it takes alot for me to not "mess" with them at every moment of desire I have....

So Tom, I think by now, not because of this thread--but because of alot of other discussions--you likely know my general beliefs on the points you have outlined here....so I will hush up now and see what the others think as well 




> great _extinct_



uggghhh, what a pain the auto correct is...this should have been "extent".. and not extinct...


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 18, 2013)

If you consider deeper time, then consider for example an era when leopards, sulcatas etc.lived in a year with much higher proportion of "optimal" days.

I get the concern/argument for "hardening" individuals, but dont buy it.

Might as well further the discussion by suggesting we infect the tortoises with some disease so we can strengthen their immune system. 

I think they can do okay as seasoned hot house flowers, metaphorically speaking.


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## ulkal (Dec 19, 2013)

Will said:


> If you consider deeper time, then consider for example an era when leopards, sulcatas etc.lived in a year with much higher proportion of "optimal" days.
> [...]
> Might as well further the discussion by suggesting we infect the tortoises with some disease so we can strengthen their immune system.
> [...]



Good points !! 
Im not a believer in "the" natural, though I would agree that we should try to offer tortoises an environment and development that comes as close as possible to their "natural" one(minus the willful infliction of parasites, wildfires, predators;and isn't that unnatural).

There are certain parameters that have to be met to raise a healthy individual, and I fully agree with the people who study tortoises in the wild to find out how to help us to do so. But there are so many factors that we, as of now, cannot recreate. The point of IR-A raised in the "physiology of pyramiding" was very helpful for me to understand. A potential hazard that the tortoise is exposed to only in captivity. To counteract we "tinker" around to still allow a healthy development. Until we can offer those mentioned basking zones this is what we have to do unless we want to give up our tortoised in frustration. The question for me is not only "how do tortoises live in the wild" but much more so "what will ensure my tortoise is healthy in captivity". Those are entwined, but as of now not always lead to the same answer.

I see no problem to tweak conditions to get a healthy development. Has nothing to do with being presumptious(right word?). Analogies are sometimes false friends, but: my dad is a craftsman and has been doing hard physical work for more than 40 years. Believe me, you wont see him jog. I need to do sports to ensure my health, because I sit on my *** all day. Circumstances are different (as they are in "I live in northern-middle Europe, Tom lives in California" and, as of now, there is nothing we can do about that)


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## Tom (Dec 19, 2013)

ascott said:


> So Tom, I think by now, not because of this thread--but because of alot of other discussions--you likely know my general beliefs on the points you have outlined here....so I will hush up now and see what the others think as well



So funny. I TOTALLY had YOU in mind when writing this and changed some of my verbiage and phraseology because of that fact. I almost left out the hibernation part because of the past discussions, but I felt it illustrated a good point. If its not already obvious, I mean all that in a good way.

To everyone, when tortoises are hibernating, are they resting and recharging, or are they merely adopting a survival strategy while waiting for warmer weather, longer days and food or water to return?

Do captive tortoises grow faster because they have fewer bad weather days, and are not dehydrated and/or starving for part of the year. Is the faster growth of captivity really so bad if the diet, temps, hydration, exercise, mineral and nutritional needs are all met? Its pretty obvious why a wild tortoise would grow slower, but is it "good" for them to starve and have no water for months on end? Sure they can survive it, but is this a desirable thing to intentionally do to our captives?

We currently have an "expert" on wild tortoise habitats who has dropped in on our forum and is advocating feeding lightly and skipping feeding entirely 3 days a week, because that is his view of what happens in the wild. THIS is what I am failing to understand. Why do we want to emulate SOME aspects of the wild and claim that it is "good" or "natural" for a captive tortoise but not others. Tortoises also go months at a time with no water in the wild. Sometimes a year or more during a drought. This is what happens in the wild, so it must be good for them to have no water for many months in a row. They are after all adapted to this, right? This same expert is very adamant that they must have drinking water available at all times. Why? If everything must be as close to wild conditions as possible shouldn't we all remove our water bowls and stop soaking for most of each year? Clearly captivity is different than the wild. Our goals as keepers are not necessarily the same as Mother Nature's goals. It is my view that learning from what happens in the wild and applying it to helping captive tortoises is a good thing, but not everything that happens in the wild is a good thing that needs to be copied if healthy captives are your goal.




ulkal said:


> The question for me is not only "how do tortoises live in the wild" but much more so "what will ensure my tortoise is healthy in captivity". Those are entwined, but as of now not always lead to the same answer.




Ulkal, your whole post was excellent and well worded, but the above sentences are PURE BRILLIANCE. Thank you. You summed up pages of my thoughts in two succinct sentences.




Will said:


> If you consider deeper time, then consider for example an era when leopards, sulcatas etc.lived in a year with much higher proportion of "optimal" days.
> 
> I get the concern/argument for "hardening" individuals, but dont buy it.
> 
> ...



I am always interested in your input Will. I'm not always sure where you will stand on some issues, but your insight here is enlightening. Thank you for posting and sharing your views.


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## thatrebecca (Dec 19, 2013)

Because torts live so long, and our way of 'optimally' keeping them with heat lamps, feeding in the winter months with store-bought foods, etc. is a relatively recent phenomenon, I wonder if there are some unintended consequences of life in captivity for tortoises that it might take us generations to understand. 

For instance, by constantly keeping torts at perfect temperatures, and enabling certain hatchlings to thrive and eventually reproduce who might not do so in the wild, could we affect their hardiness as a species? Or does that not matter, as captive torts and wild torts eventually evolve differently, like wolves and domesticated dogs?

I guess what I'm saying is, while an individual tortoise may be better off for having human care, how are we impacting the species overall?


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## Yvonne G (Dec 19, 2013)

One way that I try to diminish the hot spot shining down into the habitat is to have lots of plants. Also, I'm trying a tube-type UVB in a couple of my tables.

Once babies are big enough to go outside, I move them out of the tort table and into a safe outdoor habitat. I try to go for the most natural I can provide, and indoors just doesn't do that. This is why (and I know this isn't a popular stance) I believe a person should purchase or adopt the type of tortoise that can live in that person's climate. I know that many keepers with lots of experience have tortoises that live indoors, but I just don't think that's a good idea for new to medium new tortoise-keepers.


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## AnnV (Dec 19, 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G31N_gmUkE0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Just sayin...


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## ascott (Dec 19, 2013)

_Once a little boy was playing outdoors and found a fascinating caterpillar. He carefully picked it up and took it home to show his mother. He asked his mother if he could keep it, and she said he could if he would take good care of it.

The little boy got a large jar from his mother and put plants to eat, and a stick to climb on, in the jar. Every day he watched the caterpillar and brought it new plants to eat.

One day the caterpillar climbed up the stick and started acting strangely. The boy worriedly called his mother who came and understood that the caterpillar was creating a cocoon. The mother explained to the boy how the caterpillar was going to go through a metamorphosis and become a butterfly.

The little boy was thrilled to hear about the changes his caterpillar would go through. He watched every day, waiting for the butterfly to emerge. One day it happened, a small hole appeared in the cocoon and the butterfly started to struggle to come out.

At first the boy was excited, but soon he became concerned. The butterfly was struggling so hard to get out! It looked like it couldnâ€™t break free! It looked desperate! It looked like it was making no progress!

The boy was so concerned he decided to help. He ran to get scissors, and then walked back (because he had learned not to run with scissorsâ€¦). He snipped the cocoon to make the hole bigger and the butterfly quickly emerged!

As the butterfly came out the boy was surprised. It had a swollen body and small, shriveled wings. He continued to watch the butterfly expecting that, at any moment, the wings would dry out, enlarge and expand to support the swollen body. He knew that in time the body would shrink and the butterflyâ€™s wings would expand.

But neither happened!

The butterfly spent the rest of its life crawling around with a swollen body and shriveled wings.

It never was able to flyâ€¦

As the boy tried to figure out what had gone wrong his mother took him to talk to a scientist from a local college. He learned that the butterfly was SUPPOSED to struggle. In fact, the butterflyâ€™s struggle to push its way through the tiny opening of the cocoon pushes the fluid out of its body and into its wings. Without the struggle, the butterfly would never, ever fly. The boyâ€™s good intentions hurt the butterfly.


Keep in mind that struggling is an important part of any growth experience. In fact, it is the struggle that causes you to develop your ability to fly._


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## Yellow Turtle (Dec 19, 2013)

Will said:


> Might as well further the discussion by suggesting we infect the tortoises with some disease so we can strengthen their immune system.



Lol Will, I laugh reading this


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## Team Gomberg (Dec 20, 2013)

I love living in So Cal because of our weather for the tortoises. I, like Yvonne, put emphasis on choosing a species based on your climate. Honestly, had I known about the California Desert Tortoise before I got into Leopards I'd have chosen to keep them instead. 



> The question for me is not only "how do tortoises live in the wild" but much more so "what will ensure my tortoise is healthy in captivity". Those are entwined, but as of now not always lead to the same answer.



I like how ulkal said this. Of course I want to know what they experience in the wild. However, everything they experience will not always insure they are healthy in captivity and I can't recreate an exact "wild" for them. So, I strive to do my best with them. I offer as much variety in the diet as I can manage. I'll provide them with adequate time outdoors until they are large enough to live outside full time. I have a well planted, stimulating environment for them to roam instead of just a dirt square with a hide. I protect them to make sure they are kept safe from predators. 
Yes, in the wild they may go long periods of time without water. But I wont restrict water from them because I *can* offer that. I wont restrict food because here, green goods grow all year long. I'm not in Africa. 
I will raise the leopard babies with a humid environment. They hatch into that environment naturally and thrive in those conditions while growing in captivity. Besides, once they hit 4" they aren't living humid full time anyway. They spend all day in a planted environment outdoors. Then, they come in at night to sleep in the humid chamber. As though they are nestled sleeping under a bush. 
Then by 8" or so they will be outside full time with their own micro climates to choose from. 

When you keep an adult of a species native to your area, its very easy to let them live outside in a large section of their "wild" and just observe them. When you keep a species that is not native you have to make some tweaks. Keeping a baby has a few more tweaks... 

Everyone will have some grey area on tortoise keeping. Then there are black and white issues. To me, offering water is white. Everyone should do it. Soaking, is a grey area. You can, don't have to, doesn't hurt to, wont kill them if they don't soak but they drink..etc. Skipping meals is another grey area. I don't think they will drop dead from missing days of food. I don't think they will drop dead from eating everyday. Raising a sulcata or a leopard hatchling under a basking light indoors with no water in the enclosure and no focus on humidity is black. A wrong way to do it. 
This just came to me:
I met a guy at the last turtle show I did. He breeds and raises Sulcatas here in SoCal. He keeps all of them outside full time. Even the babies. He doesn't have fatalities and his grow smooth. We talked about his burrow systems. He has underground burrows where they spend a lot of time. They do not grow as fast as the babies I've seen raised indoors with high humidity. But they do grow decently and they grow smooth. His father tried it with Leopards but they didn't have success and hated the pyramiding look. After seeing my results with leopards using the hot and humid method they decided to try the Leopards again. I occasionally encounter his dad and he continuing to learn more about the method before jumping into it.


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## Dizisdalife (Dec 20, 2013)

Tom said:


> Question: Should we strive to give our tortoises "optimal" conditions all the time, or should we purposefully inflict some of the hardships of the wild upon them? Somewhere in between maybe?



Tom, if this were a poll I would certainly mark the box for "optimal conditions". I could not knowingly inflict any hardship on any pet in my care. I keep a sulcata in San Diego County. Great place to live, not a bad place to keep a sulcata, but it is not Senegal, the Sahel, or any other place in the natural sulcata range. Yesterday was 52F and raining. My tortoise came to the door of his shed, stuck his nose out, and after 45 minutes of contemplation he went back to his favorite corner. Nature gives him enough "bad days" that I do not need to introduce more. I feel that his conditions are less than optimal already.

So, does that make me in between? 

Like most others that have responded here, I do the best I can for my pet. I have devoted about 3000 square feet to be his pen. Of that, about 1000 square feet is planted as tortoise pasture. That pasture size will increase and the number of different plant species available will grow. Still, I know that this is lacking in comparison to what he would have living in the wild. 

Sure, I am interested in how tortoises live in the wild. Their habits and habitats, the foods they eat, how the grow, and just about everything else related to the tortoise I find intriguing. I believe this knowledge helps me make better decisions concerning my tortoise's care. My primary reason for being on this forum, however, is so that I can learn about keeping captive tortoises from those that have been keeping captive tortoises like mine.


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## GotTort (Dec 20, 2013)

An obvious analogy that no one has brought up is humans. Humans evolved to deal with certain hardships. Most people don't eat the same diet or partake in the same activities as our primitive ancestors. Certainly there are health issues about certain aspects of modern human diets. However, I don't think anyone would propose raising our children with certain hardships so as to replicate conditions humans evolved to handle.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 20, 2013)

*Re: RE: Philosophical Differences In Tortoise Keeping*



ascott said:


> > Should we strive to give our tortoises _"optimal"_ conditions all the time, or should we purposefully _inflict_ some of the hardships of the wild upon them?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





What about the CDT's in the part of the range that don't hibernate?


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## StarSapphire22 (Dec 21, 2013)

Lets also keep in mind "optimal conditions" and "spoiling." Now, picking a camp, I'd pick optimal conditions, no hesitation. If you put me on a scale of 1-10 (1 being stick it outside and let it do it's thing, 10 being give it every single thing it could ever possibly need) I'm probably a 8.5, roughly.

With babies especially, I think it's important to give them the best start possible. This is the time bones and muscles form and brains develop. I believe babies should be "pampered", or we are doing our adult animals a disservice. Water and heat should be available. Species appropriate husbandry practices should be followed. Nutritious food should be provided. Another, often overlooked (I think), aspect is stimulation and brain development. Just because I provide my baby good food everyday doesn't mean he can get lazy. I dont just plop some dandelions on a plate and set it in the same spot every day. The plate gets moved, or I put lettuce on clips with suction cups and hang them so he works for it. I put his favorites inside little lettuce burritos, where he plots how best to attack this weird shaped thing and rips and pulls and tears and eats the "shell" to get at the goody inside. 

When my tort is older, I will probably do one off day every week or two. I did this with my fish as well. One day with no light, and little to no food. In a 74Â° house, my Hermanns can handle it. Though, I haven't really decided yet. I won't hibernate. I think it's unnecessary for my species and I doubt I would ever truly be comfortable with it. Off days, once in a while, spread out over time, could help counteract extreme rapid growth much like hibernation probably.

I think simulating an animal's natural environment, needs, instincts, and desires are important. I feed as biologically appropriate of a diet as I'm able, try to simulate natural habitats (no spongebob houses here, though I am guilty of a very tiny, super adorable garden gnome), and provide mental stimulation like the challenges they could face in the wild (a tasty leaf just out of reach, a new environment to explore, finding food and water, finding/making shelter). I provide all these things to them, but it's their job to figure out how best to achieve it.


Btw, ascott, I loved that butterfly story.


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## ascott (Dec 22, 2013)

> What about the _*C*DT_'s in the part of the range that don't hibernate?



I am so eager to see what _you_ are referring to in this statement...I am suspect, but more curious....please do tell :shy:


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## Jacqui (Dec 22, 2013)

ascott said:


> Keep in mind that struggling is an important part of any growth experience. In fact, it is the struggle that causes you to develop your ability to fly.[/i]



Very very true!


If this were a poll, I would *not* be checking the "optimal conditions all the time" box. I think we do need to give them a few hard times along the way. I also like the more natural slower growth and think it may be healthier for them in the long run, may be not the animals of today but future generations.


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## reatrocity (Dec 22, 2013)

I think for me personally, it really depends on how much of a struggle it is. It doesn't have to be black or white-- struggle or no struggle. The way I try to think of it is, "how does this benefit my tortoise?"

For example, come feeding time, I do not like placing all my tort's food in one place. I put it in random areas around the enclosure, I guess "simulating" his natural environment in that he has to search for food. How do I believe this benefits my tortoise? Because it's stimulating for him. He has a reason to roam his enclosure to find food, and normally by the end of it all he's tired and seems content. 

This is just one example. I could see how some people use idea in order to go either direction in philosophy when it comes to caring for their tortoise. I think in the end, everyone has their own journey to figure out what is best for them and their tortoise. As hikers on the AT say "hike your own hike." As long as the tortoises are healthy, grow as smoothly as possible, and live a long time, that's what's important. The exact means, while helpful for new tort owners like myself, means much less if an experienced owner's torts are already living a long and active life in a relatively adequate environment.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 22, 2013)

This is good, I know it as 'behavioral enrichment'. It is my opinion this is an optimality. 



reatrocity said:


> I think for me personally, it really depends on how much of a struggle it is. It doesn't have to be black or white-- struggle or no struggle. The way I try to think of it is, "how does this benefit my tortoise?"
> 
> For example, come feeding time, I do not like placing all my tort's food in one place. I put it in random areas around the enclosure, I guess "simulating" his natural environment in that he has to search for food. How do I believe this benefits my tortoise? Because it's stimulating for him. He has a reason to roam his enclosure to find food, and normally by the end of it all he's tired and seems content.
> 
> This is just one example. I could see how some people use idea in order to go either direction in philosophy when it comes to caring for their tortoise. I think in the end, everyone has their own journey to figure out what is best for them and their tortoise. As hikers on the AT say "hike your own hike." As long as the tortoises are healthy, grow as smoothly as possible, and live a long time, that's what's important. The exact means, while helpful for new tort owners like myself, means much less if an experienced owner's torts are already living a long and active life in a relatively adequate environment.






ascott said:


> > What about the _*C*DT_'s in the part of the range that don't hibernate?
> 
> 
> 
> I am so eager to see what _you_ are referring to in this statement...I am suspect, but more curious....please do tell :shy:



http://smithsonianscience.org/2011/...rt-tortoise-is-actually-two-distinct-species/

This link is the short answer. Range maps and the most recent change in taxonomy are off topic things in this thread about keeper philosophies.

I have spoken to only one field person who went to the southern limit. There they are more wet/dry season behaviors than hot/cool for these guys. But active year round.


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## ascott (Dec 23, 2013)

http://smithsonianscience.org/2011/06/ne...t-species/


I have scoured every word of this link thinking that I have missed some positive indicator that brumation does NOT occur at all...I do not see any facts saying this....

Also, the torts being cited are affixed with an unnatural device which does not, in my opinion, present true subjects for natural observation....

This "new" species has indeed likely been around as long as the others---just no one "put their reading glasses" on to ever see the subtle differences....after all, each of the areas offer different housing options but does not change the critter living there....only their design...


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## Yvonne G (Dec 23, 2013)

I'm not sure because I can't read his mind, but I THINK he was showing you the range map, and then to tell you that he had personal contact with someone who had visited the furthest point south and was told the tortoises in that range were active year round.


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## TommyZ (Dec 23, 2013)

This is very interesting. I have been wondering what is best. I find that setting up an enclosure with obstacles, timed lighting and gradient heat is a good way to simulate conditions in the wild. The one part that strikes me as difficult is how to actually simulate hardship. 

The only way I can see to simulate a hardship would be to hold back things such as food water or warmth. The part that gets me there is that with holding food or water or warmth in my opinion is borderline abuse.

Regardless of what we all say these are not wild tortoises. My Cherie heads will never be walking around their entire range in Brazil. My northern will never set foot on the ground in a Bolivian forest. Therefore having a captive tort inside, that tort will never ever in the rest of its life be a wild animal. It is in my opinion that the animal should be given optimal conditions. 

As the old saying goes: we are forever responsible for that which we tame. (try telling my Mrs that, and youll see hardship, lol)


TZ


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## gieseygirly (Dec 23, 2013)

Tom,
Love this post. I wasn't able to read it all because I am at work but I did want to comment.

I've very often thought how we go to extremes trying to make our little (or large) fellas as happy and simulate the most natural environment possible for them. But at the same time, when my leopard or my Russian needs yet another item for either their self or their enclosure, I think to myself, "But they don't have this all the time in the wild. What do they do in the wild?"

My opinion: We go to these great measures caring for our torts because we just simply love them and to me, my torts are just like my daughter. I talk to them, I care for them, I interact with them, and I want to provide the best life possible for them, just as I do my own child. I simply enjoy doing things for them, just as do for my husband and daughter. I know they are reptiles and I may sounds silly, but I can't help it. It's how I feel - these torts are my family and I love them to pieces! Therefore, I would never simulate a drought or flood or anything like that. It would just bother me too much, even though I know these creatures endure such things in the wild.

I can't wait to follow up with this post after work! Merry Christmas, Tom!


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## Jacqui (Dec 23, 2013)

I think perhaps a clearing of the definitions here would be a good thing. Seems so many of you think non optimal are "mean" things, huge things and long term. Things like drought or flood are not what I would say fall into my thinking of non optimal care. 

I love my children too, but I also let them fall when they were learning to walk, to skate, and to ride a bike. I let them try things I knew they would probably fail at, relationships I felt would not work, and so many other things were I knew the outcome would not always be rosy, but felt they need to learn those things for themselves. To me, that was part of giving the best to my child.


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## Tom (Dec 23, 2013)

Jacqui said:


> I think perhaps a clearing of the definitions here would be a good thing. Seems so many of you think non optimal are "mean" things, huge things and long term. Things like drought or flood are not what I would say fall into my thinking of non optimal care.
> 
> I love my children too, but I also let them fall when they were learning to walk, to skate, and to ride a bike. I let them try things I knew they would probably fail at, relationships I felt would not work, and so many other things were I knew the outcome would not always be rosy, but felt they need to learn those things for themselves. To me, that was part of giving the best to my child.



I see what you are saying here J. To relate it to tortoises: I would let one of mine walk off of a short drop off to let him/her learn, but in my mind allowing them to learn from their mistakes, or spreading food around the enclosure, is not any sort of induced hardship. Skipping food three days a week, or feeding very lightly for months at a time during hot weather to simulate a dry season, is a different story. Not a story I'd wish to inflict upon my tortoises. I tried the light feeding and skipping days in the past. It still did not produce the results I was looking for. I'd never do that again.


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## DeanS (Dec 23, 2013)

Tom said:


> Jacqui said:
> 
> 
> > I think perhaps a clearing of the definitions here would be a good thing. Seems so many of you think non optimal are "mean" things, huge things and long term. Things like drought or flood are not what I would say fall into my thinking of non optimal care.
> ...


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## Jacqui (Dec 23, 2013)

Tom said:


> I see what you are saying here J. To relate it to tortoises: I would let one of mine walk off of a short drop off to let him/her learn, but in my mind allowing them to learn from their mistakes, or spreading food around the enclosure, is not any sort of induced hardship. Skipping food three days a week, or feeding very lightly for months at a time during hot weather to simulate a dry season, is a different story. Not a story I'd wish to inflict upon my tortoises. I tried the light feeding and skipping days in the past. It still did not produce the results I was looking for. I'd never do that again.



Months at a time, no. A meal a week I can see it being skipped or small, depending on how they were fed the rest of the week. I much prefer them to decide what they want to eat and how much (grazing in a heavily varied planted enclosure). I could see (depending on species and where you live) not watering the enclosure as much as you might say a grass yard (if your one of those who wants a pretty yard that's weed free). That way you would get the drier, tougher type weeds to be fed then in a well watered one.


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## Tom (Dec 23, 2013)

Jacqui said:


> Months at a time, no. A meal a week I can see it being skipped or small, depending on how they were fed the rest of the week. I much prefer them to decide what they want to eat and how much (grazing in a heavily varied planted enclosure). I could see (depending on species and where you live) not watering the enclosure as much as you might say a grass yard (if your one of those who wants a pretty yard that's weed free). That way you would get the drier, tougher type weeds to be fed then in a well watered one.



Okay, so skipping food once a week is okay with you. What about twice a week or three times a week? I'm mainly asking about an indoor tortoise, since the outdoor ones can find food and eat on their own in most cases.

I prefer to let them graze as much as they want too. I try to do that here whenever the weeds allow.


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## Jacqui (Dec 23, 2013)

Tom said:


> Okay, so skipping food once a week is okay with you. What about twice a week or three times a week? I'm mainly asking about an indoor tortoise, since the outdoor ones can find food and eat on their own in most cases.



No, I would not withhold food more then once a week myself. I don't do that with any animal including myself.


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## Tom (Dec 23, 2013)

Jacqui said:


> No, I would not withhold food more then once a week myself. I don't do that with any animal including myself.



Thank you for the tortoise conversation. That was sort of the point of this thread to see where various people stood on these issues. I as curious about what you'd have to say when I wrote this too.


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## ascott (Dec 23, 2013)

> If this were a poll, I would not be checking the "optimal conditions all the time" box.
> 
> I also like the more natural slower growth and think it may be healthier for them in the long run,



Well said.


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## Tom (Dec 23, 2013)

ascott said:


> > If this were a poll, I would not be checking the "optimal conditions all the time" box.
> >
> > I also like the more natural slower growth and think it may be healthier for them in the long run,
> 
> ...



What is it that you think causes them to grow slower in the wild?


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## ascott (Dec 23, 2013)

> What is it that you think causes them to grow slower in the wild?



Tom, 

I don't know that they necessarily grow slower(I think they are growing correctly not slowly ) _due to being_ in the wild...but moreover because of the weather....some seasons provide the optimal conditions for growth ---based on the rainfall, if there are lush food growths or not...you know, the prime reason there is no way to be able to accurately tell the age of a wild tort 

I also believe that the wild allows their emotional (for lack of a better descriptive) being to be fulfilled with countless space to roam, search, stroll, seek out, run across, fight for, fight over--get into scuffles/or frisky opportunities --the ability to make choices based on the differences offered up in the day---a day in the wild.

I could not say what the exact reasons are that truly buffer a perfect set up for a healthy tort....but I have visited areas with beautiful torts strolling in the wild---and the words perfect, fantastic and amazing always come to mind....


Also, I have noticed that sometimes the torts (both CDT and the Redfoot here) will be less eager to mad dash for goodies every so often---and when I started to pay attention to this I have decided that if they don't show natural interest/curiosity when they see food being presented then I will only leave a bit and go away...then come back and if the offerings have only be mulled over and not consumed then I will not offer another food offering for a full day---they get the water every day (because it makes me feel good, even if they don't touch it) and any spot cleaning takes place for any indoors....but just no food, on those days they display a lackluster I notice they could care less about the food so why force it? Then when the full day has passed I will make my rounds as usual....there have been times that it has happened a few days in a row (usually when it is heavy clouding and monsoon type weather) and I will do it each day of lackluster food interest....then it is like a switch has been flipped and they will spot be from across the yard and they are booking along their enclosure perimeter stomping energetic---they will pounce the food and eat with awesome vigor---then will be this way for periods of time and then the disinterest will occur again.....so, while I don't decide what times to or not to offer food----I will take ques from them (when I am able to pick up on those signals) and try to behave accordingly....and a side note; the CDTs are the ones who do this moreover than the Redfoot Torts...but they do it as well, just on a smaller scale...if that make sense?


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## Jacqui (Dec 24, 2013)

I think "optimal" can be taken many ways and some to me are way too far out there. Examples to me, would be keeping temperatures always at the same temperature, daily soaks that may serve to push food through at a faster rate then nature made them to handle and continuing this at all stages of life, feeding always only the perfect food as far as food value (so lacking the variety of food values, the variety of toughness/amount of fiber, lacking changing quality, quantity, food type with the seasons. Food normally being something actually too soft for what their beaks were meant to be used on. Always cutting the food up into bite size pieces and if using more then one type of food item, mixing them up. Food is served at the same place and time each day and never is a day missed or older dried out food left for them to eat. Having UVB lighting on for the same length of time and UVB output strength plus coming on and off at the same time each day. Enclosures that have only one substrate, nothing to climb over, no real plants, nothing that changes from one day to the next. A speck of dirt appears on the tortoise and it's bath time.

If the tortoise is outside and the temperature varies above or below that mark they think is ideal, in come the tortoise. Cloudy day? Nope can't be out. Rain falling or ground wet and muddy, of course the tortoise is inside. 

Those are just some examples where *I think* folks go over board with the "optimal" thinking. Where one or three would be fine, but they often do all of these things. I guess what I am saying is there are extremes to both sides, where I would rather see the middle ground being used. It should not be a race to see who can grow the biggest tortoise the fastest, as it appears it has become with some. I like seeing tortoises living and growing as close to what nature intended them to do and to be.




ascott said:


> I don't know that they necessarily grow slower(I think they are growing correctly not slowly ) _due to being_ in the wild...but moreover because of the weather....some seasons provide the optimal conditions for growth ---based on the rainfall, if there are lush food growths or not...you know, the prime reason there is no way to be able to accurately tell the age of a wild tort
> 
> I also believe that the wild allows their emotional (for lack of a better descriptive) being to be fulfilled with countless space to roam, search, stroll, seek out, run across, fight for, fight over--get into scuffles/or frisky opportunities --the ability to make choices based on the differences offered up in the day---a day in the wild.
> 
> ...





This is so well written and I agree with everything you had to say.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 24, 2013)

Yvonne G said:


> I'm not sure because I can't read his mind, but I THINK he was showing you the range map, and then to tell you that he had personal contact with someone who had visited the furthest point south and was told the tortoises in that range were active year round.



So, I love you, and appreciate your mind. You are the perfect turtle wife.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 24, 2013)

***digging her right toe into the ground, Yvonne dips her head to her shoulder, blushing***


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## Tom (Dec 24, 2013)

Yvonne G said:


> ***Yvonne dips her head to her shoulder, blushing***



Now THAT, I cannot picture!


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## Yvonne G (Dec 24, 2013)

Most of my tortoises, except the babies in the tort tables*, have to work pretty hard for their food. They have to make do with whatever is growing in their yards, and that's pretty sparse in the winter time. The Manouria have to eat the fallen mulberry leaves, and they DO get pretty tired of that same food item day after day. So I'll occasionally offer them some grocery store fruits, veggies and greens. 

*Once they're big enough to live in the outdoor yard, I wean them off being fed by me every day, and they have to forage.

I weigh and measure every tortoise at least once a year. For example, the last time I weighed the leopard tortoises they all (except the SA leopards) weighed less than last year's weight. So I'm feeding them this winter instead of making them forage. Their yard is pretty barren, as they have eaten the grass down to the nubs. And I'm re-configuring the pens to give them a bit more grass space.


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## DeanS (Dec 24, 2013)

Sometimes, mine have to work pretty hard to find food! It's based on the principle of whether or not they want to cross from one end of the yard to the other in order to eat. Oh wait! The entire yard is a banquet. So I guess they can eat whenever they want to! Due to the fact that they all follow the dogs around...Uh-hum...I have cut the Mazuri down to twice a week...since their protein intake is quite satiated! Chew on that for awhile!


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## Yvonne G (Dec 24, 2013)

Yuck, Dean. That's satisfies my yuck factor! I have a fairly new 38lb sulcata rescue in my backyard. I pick up the dog poop almost as fast as she deposits it, however sometimes she wants out during the night, and I may miss one until later in the morning. I have seen smeared dog poops in the back yard, and can only assume my new little rescue has acquired a taste for the yuck factor. My dog eats quite well, and she is NOT on heart worm medication, so besides yuck, it's all good.


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## T33's Torts (Dec 24, 2013)

*Re: RE: Philosophical Differences In Tortoise Keeping*



Yvonne G said:


> Yuck, Dean. That's satisfies my yuck factor! I have a fairly new 38lb sulcata rescue in my backyard. I pick up the dog poop almost as fast as she deposits it, however sometimes she wants out during the night, and I may miss one until later in the morning. I have seen smeared dog poops in the back yard, and can only assume my new little rescue has acquired a taste for the yuck factor. My dog eats quite well, and she is NOT on heart worm medication, so besides yuck, it's all good.



New rescue? Sounds cool.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 26, 2013)

So I'm going back to Tom's OP, and aside from many things that have become divergent on "philosophy", I am restating his question so it bears better in my mind and then answering it with what I hope will be content to consider in the vein of that OP.

"Optimal" might be part of a continuum from one extreme to another, so let's define those extremes.

One extreme might be a tortoise that hatches during a period when that cohort of hatchlings in that population will have but one survivor to reproductive age. Between an in-abundance of food and least endurable climate, (no predators or disease) one tortoise survives, takes maybe 1/3 longer to reach reproductive size (age for tortoises is less relevant than size). What do we have at the end? A tortoise with every adaptive advantage called into use, the one that will carry a population forward during the worst possible suite of conditions for that species in that population in that space and time. Selection at it's harshest, but still do-able, there are several cohorts.

At the other end of the spectrum, maybe we have a tortoise in a NASA space station hooked up into some type of habitat that reads stress and hunger, reproductive want, etc. and provides on an as needed basis. All physical and chemical needs met as the animals can use them, no minimum, everything is maximum, and balanced. For the most part you still end up with only the same result. In this case the individual tortoise's needs were met on demand.

The difference between these two tortoises is not a wizened creature that can do anything more but pass its genes onto it's offspring, those genes that worked in the particular condition for the individual. We still do have wild animals here, dog examples do not work. Wolf examples would, yeah?

One collection of individuals (a cohort) is always steering (offering for selection) the next collection.

Then we have two other lesser extremes in our range of husbandry. 

One, A suitable climate and large outdoor pens, with predator exclusion. large enough we never have to offer extra food, maybe we keep a basin of freshwater available and not much else. We have a pet for the fun of observation pretty much as we wish, with very little "husbandry" involved. If we have a few in the enclosure we may even find neonates or hatchlings from in the ground nests.

The other range here is someone living in an climate not tortoise friendly but a few weeks a year, not really enough to be considered a significant or valuable exposure to sun, open air etc. for the animal, so little in fact "why bother" becomes a rational POV.

So now lets 'middle of the road' the scenario. 

How much and what kinds of 'as found in nature' artifacts of existence do we make available? 

Well I think we can rule out predators and disease without much thought, but that is part of a 'natural existence' reality. 

We have climate, but what is climate? The source of certain physical and chemical needs, as based on the cohorts of past individuals. When looking at longer than the very last cohort, maybe the last thousand cohorts, we see that our individual tortoise is an amalgam of excellent 'results' based on what is available in that habitat. Maybe some years 
with 300 'growing' days, some years with a minimal 60 'growing' days. 

Which is better is getting at the heart of the philosophical question.

Food is another major issue. Maybe some disease wipes out some hoof stock food competitors and that lasts as an effect for 20 years, which is followed by a rebound in those hoof stock competitors and food is scarce. The tortoises survive either way and have not been in danger of die out, but which is better?

In captivity climate is temp, water, day/night, light qualities, air circulation for the animals itself.

Food is affected by climate, but lets look at it separately. If there was a perfect single food item for all stages and of life and nutrient needs, that would make it simple. There is not, and this is a vigorously debated topic, maybe table it for right now.

Then there is the physical habitat, rocky, sandy, grassland, forest, etc.

These things are as much a factor that shaped the tortoise over time as they are for a tortoise selecting them as individual animals in real time (each individual's life).

I think these are the big considerations.

I believe that as long as the result of your husbandry is a tortoise that looks wild type, then you are doing great (excluding albinos and the like). A ten year ten inch tortoise is no better/worse than a 20 year ten inch tortoise, both would happen in a trouble free (no predators or disease) wild life.

I like husbanding animals. I like to give them the optimal that they would take from the wild as is available, to me to provide.

Different life stages have somewhat different needs and optimality. I want the tortoises to, as best I can tell, thrive. Putting food around the enclosure is behavioral enrichment. I think tortoises display 'play' behavior' and 'problem solving'.

I think tortoises do look for clues about there environment based on what other animals are doing, like cattle egrets following buffalo to get the insects - stirred up. The 'food god' thing for tortoises.

This is how I have come to think of Tom's OP, something debated to death among Zookeepers and wildlife biologists working to mitigate human alterations to environments. Two sides to the same coin.

I am also motivated by sharing the animals as sold or gifts. I really really don't like hearing about how an animal I had as a neonate - dies because it was not a "doer" or because as an individual it could not endure the very small hardship of a new enclosure. In this case size matters. So I like to grow them larger soon, so they they can better endure these hardships in captivity.

This echoes something in the wild. Bigger females lay bigger eggs that hatch out bigger neonates that can endure the first part of their life better. So in a way, we are adopting a natural selection process for our captive animals. By further eliminating predators and disease we are going the captive raising one step better. We end up amping up what happens in the wild, not really replacing it.

When we get freakish looking animals from poor, neglectful, or ignorant (did not know as individuals or as a collective of husbandry knowledge), then that is when we have failed. 

I think the ideal is wild type looking (morphology, not color pattern) and full life. Not all tortoises can or do live long lives in the wild. 

There are no doubt accumulative effects from multiple generations in captivity, but that is domestication. so maybe that can not really been valued as good or bad?

A 'Cohort' is all the individuals in one reproductive year. Some definitions carry this to the number that make it to reproductive age from a specific past year.


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## ascott (Dec 26, 2013)

> The difference between these two tortoises _is not a wizened creature_ that can do anything more but pass its genes onto it's offspring,



As, what I read here, a difference of "core" beliefs, I believe you would exactly have a wise creature fully part of the act in passing its superior genes on in the long line of offspring....these are things "I believe" are imprinted within that line....so, this difference in beliefs makes our opinions different straight out the door...there are absolutely traits that are a lingering part of a particular line....again, in my opinion.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 26, 2013)

ascott said:


> > The difference between these two tortoises _is not a wizened creature_ that can do anything more but pass its genes onto it's offspring,
> 
> 
> 
> As, what I read here, a difference of "core" beliefs, I believe you would exactly have a wise creature fully part of the act in passing its superior genes on in the long line of offspring....these are things "I believe" are imprinted within that line....so, this difference in beliefs makes our opinions different straight out the door...there are absolutely traits that are a lingering part of a particular line....again, in my opinion.



Wizened from it's own life is what biologist call lamarckian evolution, if that s what you mean. That is not what I mean. Like when you cut off a mouse tail, that mouse's offspring grow sans tail. I somehow don't think that's what I said, or what you are responding to, maybe?

The traits that one animal is born with, can be passed onto offspring, if that first survived the trials of it's life to a reproductive age, and then reproduced. The adult's actual survival is a challenge between what it is, and what the environment is during it's life. If the what it is, does well in that environment, then those traits are "good" and pass along.

Survival is a stochastic thing, even for people. Really healthy animals with good traits, may not survive often.


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## Benjamin (Dec 27, 2013)

Interesting thread, thanks. What has crossed my mind in reading all is..Why are we keeping these animals in the first place?


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## argus333 (Dec 31, 2013)

ya unless u own massive land in Africa and are keeping leopards or spur thighs u are inflicting. zoos are just as guilty.


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## peasinapod (Dec 31, 2013)

Benjamin said:


> Interesting thread, thanks. What has crossed my mind in reading all is..Why are we keeping these animals in the first place?



Unless you are part of a repopulation/conservation program or something similiar, it's just because we're selfish. 

IMO that's why it is our obligation to look after them properly.


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## diamondbp (Dec 31, 2013)

I think the answer to this question may be relative to the tortoises owner.

I look at the extremes the tortoise may experience while in my care based off of my ability to provide/house/feed/etc. long term. For instance, I know I can't dedicate the time that a single person with no job could to my tortoises. Nor could I spend endless amounts of money building elaborate enclosures for them. So I don't try to "pamper" my tortoises like some may simply because I don't want them to become accustomed to a prestine ideal lifestyle that I know I can't provide that every single day. I don't think its wrong to pamper them if you know that you will be able to continue doing so over the course of their life.

I think the main reason tortoises get sick or die is not from lack of food/water available, but because of the stresses of moving to new locations and experiencing very different situations than what they previously had grown in. 

I aim for someplace in the middle of the extremes. They will always have enough food and water available but may experience days where the variety and amount is better than other days. So they may feel "hunger" at times but I'm sure that happens plenty in the wild and my tortoises never experience it for long. I also do soaks as often as I can, but I'm bound to miss a day or two a week because of how unpredictable my life can be between my family and job obligations. My tortoises grow out nicely and are healthy, but I often see pictures of other people's tortoises that grow so much faster because of how "ideal" their lifestyle is compared to mine. I'm sure the way I raise my tortoises far succeeds the typical tortoises life but it isn't what I would call ideal. I think it's better than what a wild leopard would experience and that my tortoises will live long happy healthy lives.

So in short, I believe if you know you can provide ideal situations for your tortoise long term then do so. But if you know you simply can't provide optimal conditions 24/7 - 365 then just do the best you can for your tortoise and know that it will still live a good life.

The problem is the people that get in over their heads and know they can't provide for their tortoises at all, yet buy the tortoise anyways. There are plenty of people that simply "want" a certain tortoise but never question whether or not the tortoise would "want" to live with them lol.

I want my tortoises in my life, and I think if they could speak they would say that they would "want" to stay with me too lol. It's a nice thought at least


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 31, 2013)

Benjamin said:


> Interesting thread, thanks. What has crossed my mind in reading all is..Why are we keeping these animals in the first place?



for the same reason I get involved with any relationship, it fills a need I have. As for other humans they come and go as I fill their needs.

With pets, it's more one sided, but I implement due diligence to create what balance I can.

I'd much rather live where I can see tortoises doing what they do without any husbandry.


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