# Vet visit questions



## CathyNed (Apr 29, 2016)

Hey guys. Im hoping to get my Russian to the vet in the next couple days. He hasnt been well and has shown signs of improvement but still isnt up to his usual antics. Maybe it is something that will take longer or maybe he needs further treatment. My vet is not a reptile specialist so im unsure of his reptile experience and i wanted to just ask /check a few things.
Based on the forums ive read if injections are to be administered I should not let the vet inject into back legs/rear is that corrcect?
Are there any specific medications that are toxic to torts that i should stop him from injecting/administerig?
If blood sample is to be taken is it also to be taken from neck/front area rather than rear?
Anything else i should watch out for that could be harmful..
Hoping to get x ray and maybe blood sample to see if they show up anything?


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## Kori5 (Apr 30, 2016)

I'm sorry your tortoise is ill. I hope he gets better . I think oral antibiotics are the best for them from what I've read. Also, ivermectin is toxic for them, it is a drug for parasites. My vet, who is a reptile specialist, took a blood sample from his tail and it went really well . He also had an xray done because we suspected blockage but everything was ok.


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## Lyn W (Apr 30, 2016)

If you post his symptoms here maybe someone with the same experience can advise some things you can try before you visit a vet.
Is he eating, pooping etc.
Hope he's OK


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## CathyNed (Apr 30, 2016)

Lyn W said:


> If you post his symptoms here maybe someone with the same experience can advise some things you can try before you visit a vet.
> Is he eating, pooping etc.
> Hope he's OK


Hi Lyn. I posted a thread about a sick russian tort a coupke weeks back. He was inactive and showed no interest in food. I suspect he was lacking in uvb due to a bulb problem. The vet told me he had lost weight and gave me critical care formula to syringe feed to help him put on weight and hopefully bring back appetite. Vet checked shell and no sign of softness. He never mentioned doing anu kind of test. I changed out all his enclosure...lighting heating the lot based on info from here. I syringe fed for about ten days and his appetite came back. He pooped and peed every day.oops were hard, large and difficult and someone recommended cucumber which has worked a treat. Ive checked for parasies in poop and nothing. Once he started eating independently again i stopped syringe feeding. When i contacted the vet about the improvement he told me to continue to syringe feed as the formula contained more than just food...vitamins etc. He is bathed twice daily for about 20-30 mins each time.
Appetite has greatly improved and i now give him the critical care formula on his leaves.
When he walks he lifts his front off the ground but his rear plastron is scraping on the floor. His back legs are not paralised, they move and bend and he uss them to push himself forward but does not lift. My mum seems to think he never lifted himself very much if at all. Ive had him 8 years and lets just say that he would be long dead if i followed the advice i got when i bought him. Was wondering if this could sign of MBD and if it is reversible or a sign of a kidney stone? Mentioned to vet whi said kidey stone would be very unlikely. An xray would show that up but how would you ceck for MBD? He is very inactive in his enclosure. Walks to basking spot and sleeps....all day. If i take him out on the floor which i know is ill advised he wanders and wanders walks and walks.
As i said his appetite has grown but ive also noticed times where he has bitten and bitten at food and keeps looking for it but hasnt swallowed anything. Its all sittig in a ball not in his mouth but at the top og his neck. I can see it there covered in bubbles when he opens his mouth to eat more. Is he having trouble swallowing or is this justhow torts eat? I posted pics of his mouth yest and some people see to think he might have an absess but it is the same on either side. His chin is flabby. Its all wrinkly soft akin but looks like there is way too much. Ill pist pics again.
Basically my concerns are his walking and these lumps on mouth and how they can be tetef and treated if they are causimg him any discomfort. I really want him to be ok. I will do anything i can for him.


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## Lyn W (Apr 30, 2016)

Ah yes I remember your posts now, and if he is already seeing the vet then I can understand why you would take him back.
I can't really help but maybe the more experienced folk here can. I would think an xray may help rule out/identify kidney stones though. He is such a beautiful tort .


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## Kori5 (Apr 30, 2016)

MBD could be seen through blood test. You need to have his calcium : phosphorus checked. It should be 2:1. If it is reverse something is wrong. Also, an xray will show what his bones look like. I think tortoises with mbd have a sponge like appearance. But I'm not a vet, I'm talking from personal experience as we took our tortoise to the vet last autumn. His appetite wasn't great and he was sleepy so we were scared. An xray will show if there is a kidney stone too or any kind of blockage. I would do a complete blood test which is expensive but worth it. That's what we did.


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## CathyNed (Apr 30, 2016)

Lyn W said:


> Ah yes I remember your posts now, and if he is already seeing the vet then I can understand why you would take him back.
> I can't really help but maybe the more experienced folk here can. I would think an xray may help rule out/identify kidney stones though. He is such a beautiful tort .


Hes an absolute dote. I love him to bits. Do you think his chin and jaw line looks strange looking at last picture. It doesnt seem to be swelled with fluid, its very soft but its resting and rubbing on his plastron when he strethes or lies out. My vet is very nice but he is not a herp vet and i just dont want to let him do anything that would cause further damage/harm. When i mentioned an xray to him on phone he said not to waste the money to give him more time and that kidney stones were highly unlikely. Im not sure if he is saying this because he wont know what to do? Id nearly rather he admit he hasnt a clue than do somethung wrong. If the lumps on his jawline are absesses and need to be lanced im not sure if he will know ir do it. Nearest herp specialist is 3 hrs away.


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## Sara G. (Apr 30, 2016)

It might be in your best interest to at least call the herp vet and explain the situation. Maybe they have advice on your best course of action (blood work, X-rays, etc.). But honestly you won't be able to find out what's wrong with him without X-rays and blood work anyway. And since the issue see to have been going on for so long I think it's time.
But I'd try to see the herp vet for all of it. I know 3 hours is definitely a hike but I'd rather be safe than sorry when dealing with a vet. Especially when it comes to my turtle & tortoise babies.


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## Lyn W (Apr 30, 2016)

His jaw line does look lumpy but I wouldn't like to say if it's an abscess or not,
You may already have done this so apologies if stating the obvious, but have you tried ringing/emailing other vets to see if they have a herp specialist on their team? They don't always mention it unless asked. My local Pets at Home has a herp vet in store which I didn't know until I overheard an assistant telling a customer the other day, although I would prefer to use a vet practice with all the equipment to hand.


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## Lyn W (Apr 30, 2016)

Sara G. said:


> It might be in your best interest to at least call the herp vet and explain the situation. Maybe they have advice on your best course of action (blood work, X-rays, etc.). But honestly you won't be able to find out what's wrong with him without X-rays and blood work anyway. And since the issue see to have been going on for so long I think it's time.
> But I'd try to see the herp vet for all of it. I know 3 hours is definitely a hike but I'd rather be safe than sorry when dealing with a vet. Especially when it comes to my turtle & tortoise babies.


........maybe email and send pics.


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## JoesMum (Apr 30, 2016)

@deadheadvet may be able to say, but it's hard working from pictures - a good vet would much rather have a tort in their hand


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## CathyNed (Apr 30, 2016)

Lyn W said:


> Ah yes I remember your posts now, and if he is already seeing the vet then I can understand why you would take him back.
> I can't really help but maybe the more experienced folk here can. I would think an xray may help rule out/identify kidney stones though. He is such a beautiful tort .


Hes an absolute dote. I love him to bits. Do you think his chin and jaw line looks strange looking at last picture. It doesnt seem to be swelled with fluid, its very soft but its resting and rubbing on his plastron when he strethes or lies out. My vet is very nice but he is not a herp vet and i just dont want to let him do anything that would cause further damage/harm. When i mentioned an xray to him on phone he said not to waste the money to give him more time and that kidney stones were highly unlikely. Im not sure if he is saying this because he wont know what to do? Id nearly rather he admit he hasnt a clue than do somethung wrong. If the lumps on his jawline are absesses and need to be lanced im not sure if he will know ir do it. Nearest herp specialist is 3 hrs away.


JoesMum said:


> @deadheadvet may be able to say, but it's hard working from pictures - a good vet would much rather have a tort in their hand



@JoesMum @Lyn W @Sara G. @Kori5 Thanks all. I cant see the main herp vet here in Ireland looking at pics and trying to diagnose or help me out online. Most vets i have contacted have laughed when i asked about treating a tort so im guessing they dont see many. If i take him to the vet he has been seeing who has his weight at different times logged and ask him to do an xray and bloodwork could he do anything major wrong? The vet has xray equipment. Im assuming a tort can be xrayed with same machine as other small pets? Bloodwork might be sent away. I am not sure about that. Do vets usually provide print outs of these things that i could take to a specialist if there is a need?


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## Yvonne G (Apr 30, 2016)

If the vet wants to give an injection of vitamin A (it usually comes with D and E) ask nicely for him to not do that. A lot of times they give too much and it causes the skin to slough off. You can get vitamin A into tortoises a lot easier than an injection and we can help you with that, if necessary.

If there are tortoise vets in your country, maybe you can ask your vet to call one of them and get some verbal help.


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## CathyNed (Apr 30, 2016)

@Yvonne G @Lyn W @Sara G. @Kori5 @Tom @JoesMum 
Rang my vet and he can't see Ned till Tuesday to do any tests. Monday is a bank holiday here. I described his new mouth symptoms as seen above in pics. He said it sounds like dyptheria. Has anyone heard of that in torts before or is he way off. He said on Tues he can give him antibiotics if thats the case when he sees him. Any ideas?


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## Yvonne G (Apr 30, 2016)

I really doubt that's diphtheria. Diphtheria shows symptoms INSIDE the mouth near the throat. Your lumps are just under the skin. I still think you need to ask the vet to aspirate a bit of the liquid from one of the lumps and send it to a lab to see just what it is.

I hesitate to use antibiotics willy nilly. I always want to do a smear and see what's growing in order to use the correct antibiotic for the job.


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## CathyNed (Apr 30, 2016)

CathyNed said:


> @Yvonne G @Lyn W @Sara G. @Kori5 @Tom @JoesMum
> Rang my vet and he can't see Ned till Tuesday to do any tests. Monday is a bank holiday here. I described his new mouth symptoms as seen above in pics. He said it sounds like dyptheria. Has anyone heard of that in torts before or is he way off. He said on Tues he can give him antibiotics if thats the case when he sees him. Any ideas?


He is very very eager to eat but keeps pulling food into his mouth and pushing it back with his tongue but not swallowing it. It is sitting at the back ofhis mouth/top of his neck but not going down? A few times ive pulled it back out when it sat there for ages and other times he just swallows it. Is thatjust the way they eat?


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## CathyNed (Apr 30, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> I really doubt that's diphtheria. Diphtheria shows symptoms INSIDE the mouth near the throat. Your lumps are just under the skin. I still think you need to ask the vet to aspirate a bit of the liquid from one of the lumps and send it to a lab to see just what it is.
> 
> I hesitate to use antibiotics willy nilly. I always want to do a smear and see what's growing in order to use the correct antibiotic for the job.


Thanks Yvonne. I understand the logic there. Makes perfect sense to me because i want him to not just get better but fid the cause to stop it reoccurring. I will suggest it.


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## Lyn W (Apr 30, 2016)

I would email the herp vet with pics anyway to ask their advice as they may have seen it before and to ask if they know and can recommend any one in your area who could help. After all the worst they can do is say no.
I hope someone can help you.


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## JoesMum (Apr 30, 2016)

I was wondering if it was worth contacting the Herpetological Society of Ireland to see if they can recommend a vet
https://thehsi.org/


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## JoesMum (Apr 30, 2016)

Also this vet may know another nearer you
http://www.veterinary.ie/


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## Kori5 (Apr 30, 2016)

Lyn W said:


> I would email the herp vet with pics anyway to ask their advice as they may have seen it before and to ask if they know and can recommend any one in your area who could help. After all the worst they can do is say no.
> I hope someone can help you.


I would do the same.


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## martaemha (May 1, 2016)

Hi CathyNed

Like others have already said it is better to go to an experienced vet even if he is 3 hours away. In Poland there are very few herp vets and this means I always have to travel with my torts when push comes to shove. And we don't even travel by car but by train! They seem to be doing fine, quite stressed out at first but then they start to like the adventure.
So, as to your cute tort and his back legs. I had a rescue once and her back legs were so weak that she was unable to walk. I gave her warm baths but in a slightly different manner. I would fill the tub with lots of water, way too much for a tort, and then put a brick inside. I would place the tort on that brick with his legs loose in the water. The natural reflex action is to start moving the legs. I remember this semi-swimming has improved the strength in her back legs greatly and in half year she was able to walk with her plastron lifted up again. She was actually roaming the outside pen! Also another option if you want to have more control over the whole rehabilitation process is to make this simple device out of few elastic stripes which you place under the plastron. You hold the ends of the stripes in your hand and gently immerse the tort in the water. The water has to be deep, so that the tort doesn't touch the ground. Also remember to keep his head out of the water at all times! This rehabilitation has done wonders for the rescue I had. I was also bathing her in water with essence of herbs that support liver and kidneys, artichoke was my choice.

Walking on the floor (slippery ones, like tiles etc) causes deformities of their limbs so I would avoid it. Whenever there is some sun in Ireland and the temps are over 20 degrees C, take him outside and you will see a different tort, I can assure you!

The lump under his chin worries me because you write he has gone through a lot and this is the place that the residues of uric acid tend to gather causing gout. Of course in case of your tort this maybe something completely different, but I would suggest this option to a vet. A blood test would reveal if this is what causes the swelling. In small torts it is best to draw blood from coccygeal vein in the tail.
I am attaching a link to picture showing gout in a tort. It is very graphic so please see at your own discretion.

http://www.terrarium.com.pl/wp-content/uploads/414.jpg

It is very important that your tort starts eating and swallowing because he seems so thin judging from the pictures. I wish him quick recover and all the best to both of you!


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## Kori5 (May 1, 2016)

CathyNed said:


> Hes an absolute dote. I love him to bits. Do you think his chin and jaw line looks strange looking at last picture. It doesnt seem to be swelled with fluid, its very soft but its resting and rubbing on his plastron when he strethes or lies out. My vet is very nice but he is not a herp vet and i just dont want to let him do anything that would cause further damage/harm. When i mentioned an xray to him on phone he said not to waste the money to give him more time and that kidney stones were highly unlikely. Im not sure if he is saying this because he wont know what to do? Id nearly rather he admit he hasnt a clue than do somethung wrong. If the lumps on his jawline are absesses and need to be lanced im not sure if he will know ir do it. Nearest herp specialist is 3 hrs away.
> 
> 
> @JoesMum @Lyn W @Sara G. @Kori5 Thanks all. I cant see the main herp vet here in Ireland looking at pics and trying to diagnose or help me out online. Most vets i have contacted have laughed when i asked about treating a tort so im guessing they dont see many. If i take him to the vet he has been seeing who has his weight at different times logged and ask him to do an xray and bloodwork could he do anything major wrong? The vet has xray equipment. Im assuming a tort can be xrayed with same machine as other small pets? Bloodwork might be sent away. I am not sure about that. Do vets usually provide print outs of these things that i could take to a specialist if there is a need?


Yes, I got his xray on a cd and his blood work printed for me. The x ray machine works the same for them too, it is not painful or unpleasent for them.


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## CathyNed (May 1, 2016)

@JoesMum @Yvonne G @Sara G. @Kori5 @martaemha @Lyn W 
Hi everyone. Thanks for all your help and suggestions. I decided to email the herp specialist vet yesterday and send some pics just to see. I wasnt expecting to get a reply to be honest as i thought she might not want to give any suggested treatments or diagnosis and then have me go to another vet to have treatment carried out. To my surprise she had emailed me back at 9am on a Sunday morning of a bank holiday weekend here. Im very impressed. She thinks given his history and the pics i sent that he has MBD and possible kidney problem. I have made an appointment with her and am going to bring him to her hospital where he will be admitted for treatment blood tests and xrays. Not sure at this point what the prognoais is or what course of treatment may be but she is the best of the best in Ireland with regards to reptiles so if anyone can help him it will b her. Im really really hoping he will be ok. He is such a character and absolutely adorable. Just wanted to keep you all updated and thanks again fot help and suggestions. Always aprreciated!


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## JoesMum (May 1, 2016)

I'm so glad you're getting the help you need. Good luck to you and your tort


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## Sara G. (May 1, 2016)

Yes, I'm glad too, and definitely keep us updated!


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## CathyNed (May 9, 2016)

@Lyn W @Kori5 @Sara G. @Yvonne G @JoesMum 

So in a weird twist of events i got shingles....which also means I got time off work....which also means I can now take Ned on the cross country trip to the reputable reptile vet.His appointment is tomorrow and he will be kept for a number of days so they can do every test possible and administer any treatments needed....

1.I am nervous. I am a country bumpkin and I very much dislike city driving and guess where I have to go! Yay!

2. I am sad. I've had Ned for 8years and he has very rarely been away from me for a week if ever. I will be very sad to leave him with strangers....even very helpful strangers...i may be in tears leaving the vets tomorrow....and at home every time i pass his empty enclosure....

3. I am worried about what the vet will have to say about his condition. I am hoping that whatever it is it is treatable.

4. I am looking forward to (hopefully) the weekend when I will be nervous again to go drive to the city to collect him and be delighted to bring him home where I will be overjoyed to serve him up a big plate of delicious tesudo mix which should be grown to feeding point by the time he returns....wish me luck!


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## JoesMum (May 9, 2016)

Good luck to both you and your tort


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## Kori5 (May 10, 2016)

Good luck honey !. Another member just left her tortoise at the vet too so they can do some tests. I know you'll miss him but it is the best thing you could have done, really. They'll give him the care he needs.


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## Lyn W (May 10, 2016)

Sorry to hear your poorly but glad it's worked out well for Ned.
I can understand your anxiety about the trip and leaving Ned, I would feel the same about Lola, but just keep remembering it is all to get him the best help. When they get the results back I expect they will check with you before they treat him, and I know they are the experts but if they say he needs something you aren't sure about, you can always check here to see if anyone has had similar experience of meds and proceedures etc and how their tort reacted, which may vary greatly but could be things to discuss with the vet. I hope it all goes well for you and Ned. Drive carefully and stay positive. 
...........and hope you are feeling better soon too. Any chance you could stay close by in a B&B to pop in to see him?


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## martaemha (May 11, 2016)

Hi CathyNed, me and my torts have our fingers crossed for you and Ned! It seems like he is in good hands. It's always stressful for the owner to leave his pet, but you're doing it for his own good. I hope it all turns out fine for you!


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## CathyNed (May 11, 2016)

@Lyn W @JoesMum @martaemha @Kori5 @Sara G. @Yvonne G 
Hey guys took Ned to the vet vesterday. Got there safely. First reaction was that Neds skin is vey tough and dehydrated looking.lots of thick dead skin that hadn't fallen off. She felt he was very small.i got him at a pet shop when he was supposedly 20 and he would then be 28now. His shell is 5in long.she asked about how he was started or reared but i have no idea.He was pyramided when i got him and new growth has been smoother. She said the puffiness around neck was edema and could be caused by a range of things which could include kidney damage but couldnt know until tested. Not a typical standard case of MBD as his shell is very solid. Bumps at jaw are what she described as uric deposits if calcium is leeched from bone this is deposited or forms in its place. She felt his joints on back legs and thought they might be swollen or that it might also be edema but ther was sign of muscle wastage.She said she may have difficulty taking blood sample as so much swelling around neck. Also his mouth was pale as though anaemic.Basically on leaving yesyerday i did not have a very positive feeling. (Even as i type it now it sounds awful) She asked what i fed him and said it was perfect as it is mostly weeds and wildfowers (dandelion,plantain, clover,geranium, lambs leaf, kale in winter etc) The main thing she said was a good sign was that he was eating and eager to eat. We fed him some bindweed there.
She passed a tube down to ensure there wasnt a blockage and gave him fluids. He at that point ran across the table to me in a save me save me kind of motion.She then gave him a shot of antibiotic. She asked permission to do a full battery of tests xray, blood,fecal and said that she would have some done today and to call at 4pm.

I called today and she said that he is alert and eating well. No sign of pneumonia from xray but shell is not as mineralised as it should be. Lacking in calcium, possible cause being not enough calcium or uvb or else kidney damage causing it to not be absorbed properly. Knees show no sign of arthritis /swelling/gout. Blood sample was not perfect as some lymph in it. She analysed it. He is anaemic. Uric acid levels were not sky high.he is low in protein which she thinks is causing adema.not ruling out kidney damage as blood sample not completely accurate as lymph was present but she would have expected uric acid levels to be higher if so. She is continuing to hydrate him. She said she doesnt think he is beyond fighting.

Thats todays update and i was told to ring back tomorrow to find out more.Dont know what to think. Lacking calcium uvb i had suspected based on my bulb ignorance. He had it, it just wasnt replaced when it should have been and was likely not providing any uvb anymore. I feed him foods which should be high in iron and protein (dandelions/rocket/land/water cress) so if he is lacking in these things is it because liver and kidneys are not working as they should? I dont know what to do.what other foods can you guys think of that i should feed him that would be high in protein/iron?Have 12 trays planted with mustard, rocket, lambs lettuce, land cress, mixed leaf lettuce, aubretia and godetia. They are all well on their way to feedig ready. Im lucky enough to live on a farm where we grow lots of fruit and veg but if food is grown in soil with manure and topped off with compost that may contain those little balls of fertiliser and things like slug pellets are used on top of the soil can the greens of the veg be fed or will they be toxic? 
Ive replaced all his bulbs in enclosure since he started to seem unwell and been checking temps etc. I do think he has picked up since. Im just hoping whatever it is he is strong enough to pull though it and it hasnt gone too far or caused too much damage. She will keep him until Saturday. Any tips/hints/ideas or advice welcome! Thanks guys!


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## JoesMum (May 11, 2016)

The battery of tests he is undergoing is daunting. 

What the vet will determine hopefully is how much of this caused by poor care before you got him. 

I think his specific care needs after this will be determined by the vet who really does know what she's talking about. I hope the bill isn't too painful.


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## CathyNed (May 11, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> The battery of tests he is undergoing is daunting.
> 
> What the vet will determine hopefully is how much of this caused by poor care before you got him.
> 
> I think his specific care needs after this will be determined by the vet who really does know what she's talking about. I hope the bill isn't too painful.



I know when i got him i was told in the petshop to put a head of iceberg lettuce in with him once a week and hed be sorted. If he was raised like that for 20 years would he even be alive? She thinks it may have stunted his growth. Does pyramiding cause them to grow high rather than out?

The bill is daunting. She is the only reptile specialist in the republic and i suspect she can charge as she likes. I honestly dont care what it costs. I would never attempt to sacrifice what he needs for cost. Im glad that ive got a decent paying permanent job here and am in a position to be able to pay to have them done.I do wish i had made the drive a month ago and gone straight to her. I just want him to be well and happy.( i will not be telling my parents about the vets bills as my father equates everything to cattle and lets just say....he could buy a few calves) are reptile vets visits expensive in the uk?

Any ideas about affect of fertiliser in compost on the plants and whether it makes them toxic to torts. I dont see much fertiliser in it but there are some small pellets of slow release stuff. I picked out any i saw. Surely the spring mix leaves etc we buy from shops are grown in fertilised soil? Id have a much wider variety of food available if i thougjt that they wouldnt be toxic. Is the just out on spinch i ask because i know it is high in iron and protein but ive alsi read that its full of oxidants. Do the risks outweigh the benefits?


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## CathyNed (May 11, 2016)

I just want to clarify....i never fed him the iceberg lettuce....im just pointing out the level of care i was told he needed. They also said he didnt need a basking lamp just a heat mat!


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## Sara G. (May 11, 2016)

I think you might be better off using organic potting soil or something and taking young plants and replanting them in that.
Fertilizers can be harmful to torts even when they're being put through the plants.


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## JoesMum (May 11, 2016)

If the plants are suitable for human consumption, the fertilisers, etc are unlikely to harm your tort. 

For plants grown to be pretty, who knows? Some members wash the compost from the root ball and then replant in organic, clean compost or soil and then allow the plant to grow on before feeding. Others won't touch it. 

I'm not much use really because Joe basically eats untreated garden and is topped up with supermarket greens and weeds from other safe places I know 

He has eaten garden centre plants on occasion - when I have bought them and discovered that he has eaten them to the ground - I try to buy inedible or robust enough to survive or resist trampling by a 3kg tort!


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## CathyNed (May 11, 2016)

Lyn W said:


> Sorry to hear your poorly but glad it's worked out well for Ned.
> I can understand your anxiety about the trip and leaving Ned, I would feel the same about Lola, but just keep remembering it is all to get him the best help. When they get the results back I expect they will check with you before they treat him, and I know they are the experts but if they say he needs something you aren't sure about, you can always check here to see if anyone has had similar experience of meds and proceedures etc and how their tort reacted, which may vary greatly but could be things to discuss with the vet. I hope it all goes well for you and Ned. Drive carefully and stay positive.
> ...........and hope you are feeling better soon too. Any chance you could stay close by in a B&B to pop in to see him?



Thanks Lyn. Not feeling great to be honest. Have had a chest infection since start of April that i cant shake off. Had been working away all the time. Then got shingles prob because i already had weakened immune system from antibiotics. Doc said i needed to rest and because i work in the stressful field that is education and had shingles told me to stay off a fortnight. Ive spent the fortnight and the time before that worrying about poor Ned. Im back to work monday and although shingles are on the way out i still have and cant shake the chest infection! Im being sent for blood tests myself next week. Why does everything happen at once!!


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## CathyNed (May 11, 2016)

@JoesMum @Sara G. We grow the fruit and veg here and eat ourselves. At 30years they havent killed me yet! But i know torts are their systems are different. The only fertiliser ever used would be manure and whatever is in regular compost.

What i have been feeding to date is from the wild and i know is totally untreated but i could have a much broader diet if i knew feeding the homegrown veg greens would be ok.i imagine that lettuces etc and the likes in spring mix would be grown in fertilised soil and yet people feed them to torts? Or do people buy organic spring mix?


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## Rue (May 11, 2016)

Sara G. said:


> ...
> Fertilizers can be harmful to torts even when they're being put through the plants.



How? Plants get their nutrients from the soil (and water) and metabolize them as they use them, so how do they become harmful to the consumer?

Whether the fertilizer components such as N P and K come from organic manure or from a synthetic blend...the plant still uses the N P K available to it...it's not metabolized differently.

I can see that always providing ample amounts of nutrient rich plants to a captive animal with limited space to roam - but one that has evolved to eat lesser amounts of a nutrient poor diet and is always on the move can result in a 'too rich' diet, that might cause issues - because it also happens in humans and other domesticated animals. But I don't understand how the nature of the fertilizer is expressed differently once metabolized.

I'm not arguing...I'm just trying to understand what you're saying.


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## JoesMum (May 11, 2016)

As Rue said and I did... if it's not harmful for us to eat, I take it that it's not harmful for a tort to eat. Some will say organic is preferable, but it's a luxury I don't spend on.

The plants that get potted on by tort keepers are the "pretties" like house plants, succulents, roses, pansies, etc that could be grown in anything by a nursery and are not intended for human consumption.


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## JoesMum (May 11, 2016)

I'm sure the stuff you grow is fine as you grow things for you to eat


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## CathyNed (May 11, 2016)

@Rue @JoesMum Ok well then i should have lots of varied greens for him on his return!


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## Lyn W (May 11, 2016)

So glad Ned is having the works - he is in the best place and hopefully he will be well on the way to recovery by the time the vet has finished with him. 
Re fertiliser etc I personally wouldn't knowingly feed anything to my tort with any chemicals in them and avoid roadside plants because of fumes etc. I always follow the advice from the forum to repot any shop bought plants and wait several months to grow any chemicals or insecticide sprays out. I have seen it said by another member that you also need to be careful with compost because it could contain plants that are toxic to torts, but I expect your dad would make his own compost so that would be easy to check. It is hard keeping an eye on what plants could have absorbed - I'm sure a few have slipped through the net in the shop bought food I use through the winter but I try to buy organic where possible and avoid a build up in Lola's system. Thank goodness the free weeds are back in the safe places I know of !!


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## Rue (May 11, 2016)

You realize that certain pesticide levels in organic produce can be very high? Many 'natural' pesticides used in organic farming are more toxic than some of the synthetics commonly used. The reason some don't show up when residue testing is done is because they're not on the list to be tested for, so you don't hear about them. When they do test for them, the levels can be alarmingly high in some cases. An example of pesticides used in organic farming are various formulations containing copper. Copper is a metal, and is listed as an inorganic pesticide (toxic levels can cause liver damage). Nicotine is another dangerous product - listed as an organic pesticide. So both are 'natural' products, but both can be very toxic and dangerous.

I have nothing against organic produce. Pretty much what we grow in our garden would be considered organic. And I'm certainly in favour of being very careful with chemicals we use and how we use them, but labelling something as organic doesn't guarantee either safety or better quality.


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## JoesMum (May 11, 2016)

Neonics are banned by the European Union - for the time being anyway. It's under review with an announcement due January 2017. 

CathyNed lives in Ireland, so like for us in the UK, she can have confidence in local produce being clear of those.


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## CathyNed (May 11, 2016)

Lyn W said:


> So glad Ned is having the works - he is in the best place and hopefully he will be well on the way to recovery by the time the vet has finished with him.
> Re fertiliser etc I personally wouldn't knowingly feed anything to my tort with any chemicals in them and avoid roadside plants because of fumes etc. I always follow the advice from the forum to repot any shop bought plants and wait several months to grow any chemicals or insecticide sprays out. I have seen it said by another member that you also need to be careful with compost because it could contain plants that are toxic to torts, but I expect your dad would make his own compost so that would be easy to check. It is hard keeping an eye on what plants could have absorbed - I'm sure a few have slipped through the net in the shop bought food I use through the winter but I try to buy organic where possible and avoid a build up in Lola's system. Thank goodness the free weeds are back in the safe places I know of !!



Hi Lynn, there is an abundance of wild dandelion, clover, plantain, bindweed that i know have no pesticides in my area. I am way way out in the countryside with fields and fields of wild weeds. I also get my dad to warn me where he is planning to use pesticides and when he does so i know what to avoid.

My dad grows turnips/suede, carrots, kale, various lettuce plants, onions, beetroot, cabbage , cauliflower, potatoes etc in plain soil but puts a layer of compost on top. He doesnt use pesticides or sprays on it just the compost.I potted some seeds myself, in potting compost but now im thinking i shouldnt feed them or i should transplant them into ordinary soil!


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## JoesMum (May 11, 2016)

CathyNed said:


> Hi Lynn, there is an abundance of wild dandelion, clover, plantain, bindweed that i know have no pesticides in my area. I am way way out in the countryside with fields and fields of wild weeds. I also get my dad to warn me where he is planning to use pesticides and when he does so i know what to avoid.
> 
> My dad grows turnips/suede, carrots, kale, various lettuce plants, onions, beetroot, cabbage , cauliflower, potatoes etc in plain soil but puts a layer of compost on top. He doesnt use pesticides or sprays on it just the compost.I potted some seeds myself, in potting compost but now im thinking i shouldnt feed them or i should transplant them into ordinary soil!


I'm feeling jealous!


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## CathyNed (May 11, 2016)

@JoesMum Sometimes I love it....as a kid i certainly did....but sometimes a 15minute drive to the nearest shop isnt always convenient. Its no wonder the vet is 3 hours away!


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## Lyn W (May 11, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> I'm feeling jealous!
> 
> 
> Hi Lynn, there is an abundance of wild dandelion, clover, plantain, bindweed that i know have no pesticides in my area. I am way way out in the countryside with fields and fields of wild weeds. I also get my dad to warn me where he is planning to use pesticides and when he does so i know what to avoid.
> ...


Me too!
@CathyNed You are lucky to have such variety, I can't answer what you should do as I only follow advice here to the best of my ability . At least you know where your food has come from and what has happened to it en route to Ned. Most of us just have to trust the process of farm to table and do our best to avoid anything harmful. I always give everything a good soak - mainly to hydrate it - but it also washes off any insects and possible parasites even though in the wild torts wouldn't have this luxury!!


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## Kori5 (May 12, 2016)

You can't take back time and change his care in the petshop which was terrible. The problem with buying tortoises is that you never know how someone started them and even if you do, you feel sorry for them and take them. I think you care these previous years was great and you saved his life. Maybe there has been some damage to his health but that doesn't mean he won't have a long happy life . Yes, he is sick but with an experienced vet and proper diagnosis he can heal. Just do what you've been doing, feed him weeds, give supplements, baths and I'm sure he will be ok . He'll be home before you know it.


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## martaemha (May 12, 2016)

Hi Cathy, I was very sorry to hear that the bumps around the jaw that seemed to me like gout were confirmed as uric deposits. Must be painful for him and maybe this is why he had difficulties swallowing his food.
Anyway Ned is in good hands now. I am glad he's got you and that you took him to the best vet possible and that after time spent in the pet shop you took him out of his misery. The day after tomorrow you'll see him again and will know the diagnosis and medical procedures to follow. I am sure you can't wait to see him. Please take care of yourself for Ned! And since you mentioned lack of UVB, whenever the temps exceed 20 degrees please take him out for a walk, it seems that where you live you have perfect tort environment with lots of greens and fresh air. All the best to both of you!


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## CathyNed (May 12, 2016)

@martaemha @JoesMum @Yvonne G @Kori5 @Lyn @Rue 
Update on Ned.
Rang the vet there and she said for one thing he has a great appetite. Said he is alert and eating very well. Said every time she opens his mouth it is full of food! She said this is a very good sign. 
With regards to uric deposits around jaw she seemed to think it wouldnt be painful as if it were he would go off his food and definately wouldnt be as eager to bite everything that comes in front of his face. It is not obstructing his swallow which is good.

Unfortunately he hasnt pooped yet so they havent been able to do a fecal exam. He has pooped for me every day here when he bathes. He does leave it till the last minute though. I change his water every 5 mins when i bathe him so it doesnt get cold and usually just when i say ok this is the last one, he poops as if he knows, and i have to give him another bath!Im not sure how long it takes food to get around his system but i didnt feed him very much on the morning i brought him in as he had a three hour drive ahead and i didnt want to make him sick.Maybe thats the reason or else he is totally stressed at being poked and prodded.

So he is lacking in calcium, iron and protein as far as we can tell so far. He is getting fluids every day to hydrate him and is coming home Saturday now.She said she will go through his after care with me on Saturday. Thats all for now. 

I do take him outside any day that it is remotely warm and he grazes away. There arent many good days in the year here in Ireland though and today is one of them unfotunately!Hopefully we will get a nice summer!


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## Rue (May 12, 2016)

That is a reassuring update. Eating is always a good sign, especially in animals that stress easily. So if he's eating at the vet clinic, after transport and being in an unfamiliar place, that's very good. I hope he poops soon. The rest can be adjusted with diet.

I hope it's a great day for you on Saturday! Make for a nice road trip back home!


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## martaemha (May 12, 2016)

Thank you for the update! It's good news that he has a great appetite! 
I think that he just got used to pooping while bathing, but since he is constantly eating, well... all this food will find its way out 
He seems to be a strong tort. If he weren't, he would have given up on life long ago at the pet shop. I am sure that with the after care recommendations you will overcome his deficiencies. 
Please let us know how he is doing once you return together from the vet. 
I wish you the most beautiful of summers.


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## JoesMum (May 12, 2016)

Thanks for the update. It sounds like he is progressing well


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## Lyn W (May 12, 2016)

That is great news, I'm sure with your care and dedication you'll soon have Ned as fit as a fiddle!


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## CathyNed (May 13, 2016)

@Yvonne G @Sara G. @Kori5 @Lyn W @JoesMum @martaemha @Rue 
Update on Ned:
Ned has shed/is in the process of shedding his tough dry skin with the help of hydration.

His edema hasnt gone down. He is still swollen around neck, where his neck joins front paws and also around his tail.vet thinks the edema is caused by low blood protein but is unsure why he isnt absorbing protein properly. Could be problem with kidney/liver. She said usually kidney probs dont show up in blood unless at a very bad stage. He is not showing very bad levels with regards kidneys. He is still recieving antibiotics, hydration and now diahorretics.

He still hasnt pooped so no fecal test.He is alert and eating well but they are also now tube feeding him more fibre in hopes he will poop.

Vet said she doesnt want to send him home tomorrow as she feels he hasnt improved enough and she hasnt gotten the swelling down or pinpointed the problem. She feels it would be like sending him home with only half a treatment.She wants me to leave him till next week and see how he is progressing.

I go back to work next week and was hoping to have him home tomorrow but i realise it is in his best interest to stay there and continue any treatment he needs. If i lived closer I could go there and take him home tomorrow till Monday but it just isnt practical to get him home and back there. 

He will be staying with her into next week anyway and hopefully she can find out more and give him what he needs. Trying to stay hopeful and lookibg forward to having him back home!


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## CathyNed (May 13, 2016)

@dmmj @Tom @Pearly 
Just wondering if either of you have come across these symptoms


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## dmmj (May 13, 2016)

I've never had that with any of my tortoises but I have seen it many many times in life with other people and on the forum. it's almost always a problem with the kidneys that can be something simple as an infection all the way to kidney failure.the only way to tell is a blood test


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## Lyn W (May 13, 2016)

CathyNed said:


> @Yvonne G @Sara G. @Kori5 @Lyn W @JoesMum @martaemha @Rue
> Update on Ned:
> Ned has shed/is in the process of shedding his tough dry skin with the help of hydration.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear Ned has to stay longer but as you say its in his best interest and the sooner they get to the bottom of the swelling and can treat him the sooner he will be home. Get well soon, Ned!!


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## martaemha (May 13, 2016)

Well, sometimes with these little guys it takes a lot of time for them to recover so I guess you just have to be patient. You seem to have found a reliable vet who knows what she is doing so he is in good hands. I really hope that few more days of hydration, tube feeding and other treatments will help overcome the edema. I know you probably feel disappointed he's not coming home tomorrow but think about the joy you two will share once he returns for good


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## Sara G. (May 13, 2016)

Poor Ned! And poor you! But hopefully the vet will figure out the cause of everything and get him to a much better place. I know it's rough not having him around for another week but hang in there! Soon Ned will be home before you know it, likely ready to destroy whatever plants he sets his mind to.


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## CathyNed (May 14, 2016)

@Lyn W @Yvonne G @JoesMum @Kori5 @dmmj @Sara G. @martaemha @Rue @Tom
@wellington 
Update on Ned
So not the update I wanted to hear but the vet said Ned is not eating today which ia a big change because she said he has been stuffing his face every other day. He is not as alert. Nothing else to report. She will be in to give his treatment tomorrow and said will let me know how it goes.


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## Rue (May 14, 2016)

Could be he's just tired too...lots of stress for the little guy.

Hopefully he'll perk up again!


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## JoesMum (May 14, 2016)

Oh dear  Fingers firmly crossed for an improvement


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## martaemha (May 14, 2016)

Maybe he's lost his appetite because he hasn't pooped yet? Or the weather's changing? Or it is the tube feeding that made him full? Hope he starts eating tomorrow, this update really disturbed me But please think positive, after all it's just one day!


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## Yvonne G (May 14, 2016)

Martaemha makes a good point. A tortoise's metabolism is quite a bit slower than a mammal's. It sometimes take a couple weeks for today's meal to reach output. So, unless the vet is tubing a very small quantity of food, the tortoise is probably pretty full.


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## Kori5 (May 14, 2016)

Well he has been eating pretty well so I wouldn't worry about just one day. Maybe he is full as others say .


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## Lyn W (May 14, 2016)

Fingers crossed he is just full. Positive thoughts are on their way through cyber space for Ned and you.


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## CathyNed (May 14, 2016)

@Rue @JoesMum @martaemha @Yvonne G @Lyn W @Kori5 @Sara G. 
Thanks everyody. I wont lie. Im sick with worry. I know it won't do him any good but i can't help it. I am really really hoping that he is just full from all he has eaten in the past few days and the tube feeding paired with the fact he hasnt pooped. I wish this wasnt happening over a weekend although the vet has assured me she will be there tomorrow to give him his treatment. Can only wait fingers crossed and hope for an improvement tomorrow. Thanks for all the reassurances guys! I really appreciate it!


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## JoesMum (May 14, 2016)

CathyNed said:


> @Rue @JoesMum @martaemha @Yvonne G @Lyn W @Kori5 @Sara G.
> Thanks everyody. I wont lie. Im sick with worry. I know it won't do him any good but i can't help it. I am really really hoping that he is just full from all he has eaten in the past few days and the tube feeding paired with the fact he hasnt pooped. I wish this wasnt happening over a weekend although the vet has assured me she will be there tomorrow to give him his treatment. Can only wait fingers crossed and hope for an improvement tomorrow. Thanks for all the reassurances guys! I really appreciate it!


And we are worrying with you. 

I have been there myself with a very sick tort admitted. I honestly decided I was the worst human ever, not fit to care for Joe ever again if he made it. 

I will echo what others have said about recovery times - torts aren't the fastest creatures and that includes recovery. 

Big electronic hugs and fingers firmly crossed - praying for a good outcome.


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## CathyNed (May 15, 2016)

@Rue @martaemha @Kori5 @Lyn W @Yvonne G @JoesMum @Sara G. 

No word from the vet today so im looking at it as no news is good news. Was told to ring in the morning for an update so hopefully tomorrow will show some improvement.


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## CathyNed (May 16, 2016)

@Yvonne G @Rue @Lyn W @JoesMum @martaemha @Kori5 @Sara G. 
Update on Ned
Rang the vet in the am and she said that Neds swelling was going down and almost gone. She has been giving saline shots the whole time but had later started to also give diarrheatics. She didnt want to do that straight away as she wanted to hydrate him first and the two together would have been counterproductive. Due to the hydration his skin is looking much better.She said he had pooped a very very solid poop which she will have analysed and will have results tomorrow. She also said his appetite is back up again.His last antibiotic injection is Wednesday morning and if he stays eating and his fecal samples are clear she sees no reason why he cant come home Wednesday!Good news day!!


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## martaemha (May 16, 2016)

I just jumped to the ceiling with joy reading this You're a tough little boy Ned! Well done! And my appreciation to the vet, she's really a good one! So, Wednesday is going to be your lucky day!


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## JoesMum (May 16, 2016)

CathyNed said:


> @Yvonne G @Rue @Lyn W @JoesMum @martaemha @Kori5 @Sara G.
> Update on Ned
> Rang the vet in the am and she said that Neds swelling was going down and almost gone. She has been giving saline shots the whole time but had later started to also give diarrheatics. She didnt want to do that straight away as she wanted to hydrate him first and the two together would have been counterproductive. Due to the hydration his skin is looking much better.She said he had pooped a very very solid poop which she will have analysed and will have results tomorrow. She also said his appetite is back up again.His last antibiotic injection is Wednesday morning and if he stays eating and his fecal samples are clear she sees no reason why he cant come home Wednesday!Good news day!!


Fantastic news!


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## CathyNed (May 16, 2016)

martaemha said:


> I just jumped to the ceiling with joy reading this You're a tough little boy Ned! Well done! And my appreciation to the vet, she's really a good one! So, Wednesday is going to be your lucky day!


He's definately a little fighter! And she is definately my new forever vet! Nearly at the last hurdle now! Go Ned!


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## Lyn W (May 16, 2016)

Whoo hoo!! Great news Cathy!!
The antibiotics could have affected his appetite too from what I have read here, but it's a good sign it's picking up again.
Looking forward to hearing that Ned is home and back to his usual routines again soon.
Thanks for letting us now.


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## Kori5 (May 17, 2016)

I'm so glad to hear he is eating again . I think he's going to get some jummy treats when he gets back home .


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## CathyNed (May 17, 2016)

Kori5 said:


> I'm so glad to hear he is eating again . I think he's going to get some jummy treats when he gets back home .



He is going to be spoiled rotton!! I found a nursery today with perfect plants for his outdoor enclosure too. If we ever get the weather for it!


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## CathyNed (May 19, 2016)

@Rue @Kori5 @JoesMum @Yvonne G @Sara G. @martaemha @Lyn W

So Neds home!!!  Collected him after work last night. Vet showed me his xray. He is low on calcium. His shell should have showed up whiter on xray and she thinks that is the cause of his probs regarding back legs and jaw. She doesnt think it is standard MBD as his shell has no softening. Recommended to give nutrobal daily for now and of course plenty of uvb and real sun when possible.

She also recommends a change of substrate from wood chip/bark as it is to dry and no good for digging in. She said his legs show sign of muscle wastage and a better substrate would help him build up more strength in his legs by digging properly and also that the bark has no traction and just slides from him when he is walking.She recommended ordinary compost. I mentioned about the presence of fertiliser in it and she said she had never had any problems with it. Im unsure whether to use compost, topsoil,peat or coco coir in there so i guess im looking for advice on that. Do these substrates not cause problems in their eyes or with eating it?

She said she there is no way to say whether his legs will fully improve but said that giving his spirited temperment he is not going to give up trying.

His diet is good and she said to keep up same feeding and that hopefully with infection clear he will be able to absorb the iron and protein he needs.

He is still pretty puffy in my eyes. She has given me medication to give for 1 week to reduce swelling and thinks that these symptoms are caused by his calcium/protein deficiency. She aspirated his jaws and said there was no fluid. It is calcite deposit left after calcium leeching from the jaw. She said it will not go away but he is not in pain and that his jaw is still strong. (I know this myself because he has bitten me instead of his food once already today)

The rough layers of skin are gone from his neck and tops of legs. She gave me an antibiotic barrier cream to put on the peeling cracks on his lower legs after bathing to encourage them to peel too. She also said the bark substrate was harsh on new skin as he is dragging legs.

On arrival back at home he is far more alert and seems to be stronger already. He is definately heavier. His appetite is insatiable. He is absolutely stuffing his face....constantly.He is digging or trying to. Im intending to change substrate over weekend so looking for best options.So far so good! Delighted to have his little face back. Thanks everyone!


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## Rue (May 19, 2016)

Excellent news! I was looking forward to a positive update! 

Regarding substrate - it's one of those topics were I've read nothing but conflicting advice.

I have cypress mulch in the indoor enclosure and Goosefoot has had no issue with it - she walks on it, she digs in it.

I tried a mix of mostly peat moss (90%) and some cypress mulch (10%) in the outdoor enclosure, and she was very excited about it. She spent her entire time tunnelling under it all. Took a moment to find her when it was time to come back indoors...

So the peat is much better for tunneling, but I find the cypress mulch more convenient for cleaning and maintaining. We might have to compromise...

When I clean out her indoor enclosure, I might try mostly cypress mulch with peat moss and see if we can find a happy medium. Maybe 75% cypress and 25% peat? Or 50/50?


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## CathyNed (May 19, 2016)

@Rue How wet do you keep your mulch? Do you spray it on top and mix it through or do you tip water in and mix it all in? How often do you dampen it? Maybe i should just give peat moss a go? I know if it was damp and compacted it would be much more comfortable for him than scraping along on the wood chips. I cant see how it doesnt bother their eyes. If Ned gets dust in his eye it drives him crazy what would he be like with bits of peat.
Also he is a very messy eater. I have to tear his food up and he takes up a whole load in one go backs away from the dish...attempts to get it all into his mouth,drops most of it and then tries to eat it off the bark. He definately doesnt have the sense not to eat the bark. If it ends up in his mouth with his food he WILL swallow it. Thats why i was waiting till weekend to do the changeover as i will be at home and can watch and see if he is inclined to eat it.

I think it would be soil/peat would be better for humidity as he seems to dry out under the lamps and the bark dries so quickly


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## Rue (May 19, 2016)

It's a smaller enclosure and I spray it heavily, I put a litre of water in it a day. But the top is open, so that makes a difference. It is moist on both ends and drier in the middle in case she wants a dry spot. I mist in the morning to simulate dew and again at night - to simulate dew, lol.

In the outdoor enclosure I'm not sure what to do. It dried out overnight and I've watered it since, but not enough. I think I will have to water it and stir it to get it uniformly moist again. I might have to get in the habit of watering it daily as well, whether she uses it or not - otherwise I'll constantly be disturbing the décor (and any plants I might put in).


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## Sara G. (May 19, 2016)

I use a mix of organic top soil and coco coir in my indoor enclosure. Works pretty well.
The humidity is high because I have a closed chamber but the top of the soil is dry so I have no worries with shell rot. And it packs down nicely but she can dig in it relatively easily.


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## CathyNed (May 19, 2016)

Sara G. said:


> I use a mix of organic top soil and coco coir in my indoor enclosure. Works pretty well.
> The humidity is high because I have a closed chamber but the top of the soil is dry so I have no worries with shell rot. And it packs down nicely but she can dig in it relatively easily.


How do you keep the top dry Sara? Is it that the lights dry it out on the top layer? Any probs with eating it or their eyes? Also worried about shell rot. Last thing he needs.


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## Sara G. (May 19, 2016)

It just dries out on its own.
I have a closed chamber with an MVB on one side and a CHE on the other side.
Occasionally I'll stir up the substrate just to keep it from getting funky, I've had mushrooms grow on the darker side of the enclosure. Ugh.
You can always put a nice flat rock/paver stone (sunk level to the substrate) or piece of slate under the basking area. That way when your tort goes to bask, he'll be able to completely dry out his plastron because the rock or whatever will be dry & warm from the basking light.

I feed my tort on a paved stone sunk into the substrate. And OH YES, she drags her food all over the place. So naturally there's a bit of dirt on it. But I figure in the wild they'd ingest dirt as well while foraging for food, so it doesn't worry me at all.
If it was sand, that would be a different story.


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## Lyn W (May 20, 2016)

Welcome home Ned! So pleased for you that he is looking and probably feeling better too.
Do you use cuttlefish bone for him? (the same as they use in birds cages but with the metal or plastic cage clips removed)
My tort ignores his for ages and then he will have a good munch on it. Helps keep his beak trim as well as providing calcium.
You can also scrape some of that over his food a small pinch 2 or 3 times a week - too much can cause stones I believe.


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## CathyNed (May 20, 2016)

Lyn W said:


> Welcome home Ned! So pleased for you that he is looking and probably feeling better too.
> Do you use cuttlefish bone for him? (the same as they use in birds cages but with the metal or plastic cage clips removed)
> My tort ignores his for ages and then he will have a good munch on it. Helps keep his beak trim as well as providing calcium.
> You can also scrape some of that over his food a small pinch 2 or 3 times a week - too much can cause stones I believe.


Hi Lyn, i know im delighted!
Ya i have cuttle bone in with him. He hadnt really bothered with it since i put it in about six weeks ago but i had been scraping it onto his food. A couple of years ago he had one and was quite fond of it but he kept dragging or pushing it into his water and it went all horrible and i took what was left of it out. Im putting reptobal on the food everyday. For a while to see how he gets on but the cuttle bone is in there too. His beak is a tad overgrown alright but the vet thought he had been traumatised enough for now and as it wasnt affecting his eating at the minute she would leave it be for now.
Any advice on substrate Lyn?


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## Rue (May 20, 2016)

How is doing today? Has he settled back quickly into his 'home'?


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## CathyNed (May 20, 2016)

My


Sara G. said:


> It just dries out on its own.
> I have a closed chamber with an MVB on one side and a CHE on the other side.
> Occasionally I'll stir up the substrate just to keep it from getting funky, I've had mushrooms grow on the darker side of the enclosure. Ugh.
> You can always put a nice flat rock/paver stone (sunk level to the substrate) or piece of slate under the basking area. That way when your tort goes to bask, he'll be able to completely dry out his plastron because the rock or whatever will be dry & warm from the basking light.
> ...


Ya mines a closed one too but im also working on an outdoor enclosure and looking for any info. I use basking one side, tube type uvb along centre and have also got the fixtures etc to hook up a che just right of centre. Havent needed a che yet as our house is very warm. Night temps are plenty high enough without the che for the minute. Im thinking my top layer would dry too under the heat and be ok. He tends to bask, move around to eat, drink, bathe etc and head back to basking spot. He generally sleeps in the spot under the basking lamp at night even though its turned off. I intended to maybe keep that spot he usually sleeps in dry and wet the substrate in the rest of the enclosure?


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## CathyNed (May 20, 2016)

Rue said:


> How is doing today? Has he settled back quickly into his 'home'?


Came home from work to find him fully in his water dish. No idea how long hes been in it. Its a plant saucer sunk into the substrate. Ive never seen him lie for any length of time in it before. Im hoping it wasnt a case that he couldnt get out.... ive seen him walk through it with out problem though so would imagine he could do it. He seemed to be relaxed. He wasnt making any attemp to get out. Unless he had worn himself out? Maybe he is thirsty after antibiotics etc. Not working now till Monday so i will be better able to keep an eye on his comings and goings during the day and watch how he gets on with the dish.


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## Kori5 (May 20, 2016)

I'm so happy he is back home . How is he doing today? Regarding the substrate question, I use coconut coir. I usually water it once a week, mix it and tap it with hands. That way the surface dries and it stays hydrated beneath so he can dig. I never had any problems with Kori eating it but sometimes it sticks with his food so he does. The only problem with it is it's messy and gets everywhere .


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## Kori5 (May 20, 2016)

CathyNed said:


> Came home from work to find him fully in his water dish. No idea how long hes been in it. Its a plant saucer sunk into the substrate. Ive never seen him lie for any length of time in it before. Im hoping it wasnt a case that he couldnt get out.... ive seen him walk through it with out problem though so would imagine he could do it. He seemed to be relaxed. He wasnt making any attemp to get out. Unless he had worn himself out? Maybe he is thirsty after antibiotics etc. Not working now till Monday so i will be better able to keep an eye on his comings and goings during the day and watch how he gets on with the dish.


I doubt he wasn't able to get out. Sometimes they like to spend some time in their water dishes . But keep an eye on him.


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## JoesMum (May 20, 2016)

I created a thread about the steps I use to keep Joe outdoors as much as possible. It may be of use to you 
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/outdoor-accommodation-in-a-colder-uk-climate.140866/


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## Sara G. (May 20, 2016)

You could definitely keep just the area he sleeps in dry and just keep the rest of the substrate damp/slightly damp. I get the feeling that it'll dry out a lot faster than you think. The coir seems to dry out really fast, the top soil I used? Not so much.


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## CathyNed (May 20, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> I created a thread about the steps I use to keep Joe outdoors as much as possible. It may be of use to you
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/outdoor-accommodation-in-a-colder-uk-climate.140866/


Yes thanks i had seen it pinned to the enclosure section but thanks for linking here. I have ordered a raised bed for his enclosure. Will make a couple of smaller frames on hinges with wire mesh as a top to protect against predators. Was planning to grass seed half of it and use top soil for the rest. Now im thinking thirds -grass, topsoil and some dark paving slabs that will absob heat better and putting them in the sunniest side.


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## Lyn W (May 21, 2016)

CathyNed said:


> Hi Lyn, i know im delighted!
> Ya i have cuttle bone in with him. He hadnt really bothered with it since i put it in about six weeks ago but i had been scraping it onto his food. A couple of years ago he had one and was quite fond of it but he kept dragging or pushing it into his water and it went all horrible and i took what was left of it out. Im putting reptobal on the food everyday. For a while to see how he gets on but the cuttle bone is in there too. His beak is a tad overgrown alright but the vet thought he had been traumatised enough for now and as it wasnt affecting his eating at the minute she would leave it be for now.
> Any advice on substrate Lyn?


Because Lola has his own room and it isn't possible to cover the whole floor with substrate I use huge trays of coco coir and orchid bark which I pour water into to keep it moist and pat the top down to firm it up. I feed him on slate, but food rarely stays there as he walks through it and drags it everywhere! I use sphagnum moss in his humid hide. The caresheet may give you some ideas.
Lola goes through phases with his cuttlebone too.


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## Sara G. (May 22, 2016)

Pictures would be very helpful. Dogs and tortoises don't ever mix. If the injury is that bad, you really need to find a vet.


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## Kori5 (May 22, 2016)

You have to take him to the vet because it won't heal on it's own.


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## Kori5 (May 22, 2016)

Tortoise Veterinarians in Kansas
Listed Alphabetically by City

Leawood

Constance J. Organek, DVM 
Bird, Cat and Exotic Animal Care
9824 Pembroke Lane
Leawood, KS 66206
Tel: (913) 341-3339

Lawrence

Marguente Emeling, DVM
Gentle Care Animal Hospital
601 Kasold Drive #D105
Lawrence, KS 66049
Tel: (785) 841-1919

Lenexa

Dr. Jerry Immethun
Marketplace Animal Hospital
13338 College Blvd.
Lenexa, KS 66210-3323
Tel: (913) 441-6825

Topeka

Steven L. Rogers, DVM
Shawnee Animal Hospital
2113 Southwest Gage Boulevard
Topeka, KS 66614
Tel: (785) 272-3244

Wichita

Virgina A. Skinner, DVM
Prairie Avian & Exotic Animal Clinic
1741 S. Glendale Street
Wichita, KS 67218
Tel: (316) 682-5335


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## CathyNed (May 23, 2016)

@Rue @Kori5 @Lyn W @Yvonne G @Sara G. @JoesMum @martaemha 
So Ned seems to be doing really well. His appetite is very very good. Still eating away.He is far more alert than he had been and wakes now when people come into the room and makes a beeline towards me if he thinks i have food for him. ( I like to pretend is because he loves me!) Still have meds to give him orally but its no problem getting him to open his mouth as he tries to eat everything thats put in front of his face.

No more issues with him ending up in the water dish. Havent seen him drink either though. He walks over and looks in at the water and then turns away again. Im using a plant saucer burried in substrate. I had been using one of the stepped dishes before and had it burried down into the substrate too but i would at least see him drink from it. Wetting his food before he eats and soaking twice daily just in case.

He is definately acting much more like himself. He is just the cutest guy ever! Ive fallen in love with him all over again!

Working on his outdoor enclosure this week as we are having a "heat wave" aka a Summer that will last about 4 days. Joes mum will understand the weather here. I have found a nursery here with untreated plants so im buying some hibiscus sedge etc. Transplanted all my veggies into untreated soil too. Have found a few baby dandelion plants and plantain to move into enclosure too so hopefully will have some of it setup this week for him. I think some arm sun would do him the world of good.

Now...to brush up on my carpentry skills.....


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## CathyNed (May 23, 2016)

Sulcatabynby said:


> Hi one day which I think was yesterday I was picking dandelions and my turtle was walking and I wasn't watching him and then the next couple of minutes he was gone and I found him and in The Tall Grass where my dog was digging up the dirt and stuff by the tall grass in the fence Co The Tall Grass was out of the fence and I don't know what happened but there's a hole in my turtle's shell and just one hole help me please to figure out what I have to do to help him he is a baby sulcata tortoise he's one year is one year old and a month I think but yes please help me if you can thank you


Hi sulcatabynby
Sorry to hear about your tortoise. If you can post pictres it might help us to understand the injury better. I think it would be a good idea to take him to the vet as he may have internal injuries.


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## Rue (May 23, 2016)

Ned must be feeling a lot better if he's acting normal again. That's great news. Makes it all worthwhile!


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## CathyNed (May 23, 2016)

@Rue Definately. Im starting to see his quirky little cheeky chappie behavior creeping back!


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## Lyn W (May 24, 2016)

CathyNed said:


> @Rue @Kori5 @Lyn W @Yvonne G @Sara G. @JoesMum @martaemha
> So Ned seems to be doing really well. His appetite is very very good. Still eating away.He is far more alert than he had been and wakes now when people come into the room and makes a beeline towards me if he thinks i have food for him. ( I like to pretend is because he loves me!) Still have meds to give him orally but its no problem getting him to open his mouth as he tries to eat everything thats put in front of his face.
> 
> No more issues with him ending up in the water dish. Havent seen him drink either though. He walks over and looks in at the water and then turns away again. Im using a plant saucer burried in substrate. I had been using one of the stepped dishes before and had it burried down into the substrate too but i would at least see him drink from it. Wetting his food before he eats and soaking twice daily just in case.
> ...


That's great. So pleased he is going from strength to strength.
Don't worry about a bit of self soaking - Lola likes to stretch out in his plant saucer occasionally.


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## JoesMum (May 24, 2016)

@CathyNed I am delighted things are going in the riggt direction. Enjoy summer while it lasts


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## martaemha (May 24, 2016)

Dear Cathy and Dear Ned!
I am sorry I couldn't reply earlier but I had a very hectic time because I am moving back to my hometown with my torts and it's a bit of a struggle right now. I am so happy for Ned! He proved he is a tough little guy I am sure that with this aftercare, you as his owner and the best vet available he is bound to live for the next 100 years, happily munching on his greens
Here in Poland my substrate of choice is turf. It's natural, it's free and the only problem is you have to use the shovel and carry it home. I usually choose a nice untreated meadow and dig about 2 meters square of grass. It keeps moisture well and even if it dries it's ok, because it still mimics the substrate they have in the wild. I surely do look like a crazy lady carrying the turf with all the earthworms home, but the fun my torts have once I put it in their enclosure is invaluable
As for sleeping in the saucer my torts never drink ( at least I have never seen them drinking) but they like to spend time in the water. When I take them for a walk they do the same thing; they find a huge disgusting puddle and treat themselves to a mud spa All this is accompanied by very relaxed, ballet poses, so no worries, he probably decided to relax a little!


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## CathyNed (May 28, 2016)

@martaemha @JoesMum @Kori5 @Yvonne G @Sara G. @Lyn W 
Ned in the garden
Neds new enclosure...half built...have lots of plants to sow in there too and have added extra boards to make sides taller.


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## Rue (May 28, 2016)

Looking good!


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## JoesMum (May 28, 2016)

You're getting there. 

I'm not sure how long that dandelion will last though. It's looking very like dinner


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## Sara G. (May 28, 2016)

I love the piece in the middle of the enclosure! What an awesome sight barrier!
You've got my brain ticking for sure. I'm sure Ned LOVES it!!!


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## CathyNed (May 28, 2016)

Sara G. said:


> I love the piece in the middle of the enclosure! What an awesome sight barrier!
> You've got my brain ticking for sure. I'm sure Ned LOVES it!!!


Thanks Sara. Its just a border log roll from a garden centre. I really liked the look of it too. Im planting grass seed on the nearside of the sight barrier and leaving soil on the other. Ive got a deep pile of soil in the curved part on the soil side for digging and lots of plants to put in now for food and shade. Its coming along.


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## CathyNed (May 28, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> You're getting there.
> 
> I'm not sure how long that dandelion will last though. It's looking very like dinner


True...not long at all. They dont transplant very well. They were droopy and lifeless looking within an hour. Hoping they will come back to life or i will have to come up with a plan b...


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## CathyNed (May 29, 2016)

Planted Neds enclosure...


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## CathyNed (May 29, 2016)

This face...


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## CathyNed (May 29, 2016)

So....in his soak just now Ned passed urates. First time since vets visit 11 days ago. They were bigger than any urates ive seen from him previously.
His enclosure substrate is topsoil kept moist. This replaced wood bark about 3 weeks ago which had been kept pretty dry.
Basking temp is 35c , warm side 27 cool side 23 night 17. Always has access to water in indoor and out door enclosure. Soaked twice a day for 20-30 mins each. I also wet his food before feeding. Any ideas?
Could he be dehydrated?


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## CathyNed (May 29, 2016)

@Yvonne G @Kori5 @martaemha @Lyn W @JoesMum @Sara G. @Rue @Tom @dmmj
Do the pics above look like kidney stones? No kidney stones showed up on xray 11days ago. I broke them up to make sure they were not actual stones. They were very solid but they did break. His diet at the minute is mainly dandelion, plantain with a small amount of lambs lettuce, red and green leaf lettuce, clover. I have also been giving him the critical care as fibre. Ive been putting a pinch of calcium on food since visiting the vet 11 days ago as she advised. Could that cause stones in such a short time. Im going to email that pic to the vet in the morning and she what she thinks.


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## JoesMum (May 29, 2016)

CathyNed said:


> @Yvonne G @Kori5 @martaemha @Lyn W @JoesMum @Sara G. @Rue @Tom @dmmj
> Do the pics above look like kidney stones? No kidney stones showed up on xray 11days ago. I broke them up to make sure they were not actual stones. They were very solid but they did break. His diet at the minute is mainly dandelion, plantain with a small amount of lambs lettuce, red and green leaf lettuce, clover. I have also been giving him the critical care as fibre. Ive been putting a pinch of calcium on food since visiting the vet 11 days ago as she advised. Could that cause stones in such a short time. Im going to email that pic to the vet in the morning and she what she thinks.


My gut feeling is that Ned has been through a lot in the last few weeks and the fact that this is the first urate he has passed in so long goes a long way to explain those stones. He has been pretty dehydrated. My bet is that those were forming, but not detected by x ray while he was at the vet. 

I think you just keep going with 30 minute daily soaks. 

It will be interesting to see what the vet says.


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## martaemha (May 31, 2016)

I actually think (and I hope that it is not just my wishful thinking) that these are very concentrated uric acid deposits. 
When tortoises are dehydrated, they do not use the water from the bladder to eliminate uric acid. They do it only after water replenishment is available. So my guess is, Ned was dehydrated before and he stored these. And now that the vet hydrated him well and you are giving him soaks every day, his body decided that there is plenty of water to replenish and it's the right time to get rid of the urates. He probably kept the urates for a long time and this is why they are so solid looking. 

Don't worry, just go on with the soaks, sprinkling his greens with water and he should be fine.


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## Rue (May 31, 2016)

I agree...probably a hold over from being sick...and now he is getting back to normal. ..


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## CathyNed (May 31, 2016)

@Rue @Lyn W @JoesMum @Yvonne G @martaemha @Kori5
Got in touch with the vet who said that they are not kidney stones as they would have shown up on xray if they were. She said they were uric deposits that were working their way out of his system from before. She said not to worry if he is acting normal and keep up soaks etc...Phew...well done guys ye know ye're stuff!!


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## Kori5 (Jun 1, 2016)

Your vet is great!


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## CathyNed (Jun 1, 2016)

Kori5 said:


> Your vet is great!


She is very good. Im so glad I travelled the distance to bring him to her. She has been very helpful with after care and has been checking up with him every so often to see how hes doing. She has also responded very quickly to messages I have sent. Its very helpful. He is a different tort these days. So active and alert. He is on the go non stop. He is also walking much much better now and has started to lift his rear plastron again since I changed out the substrate. He had bark as substrate and i think he had learned to kind of skate or swim across the top of it no back legs required. Now with topsoil he is digging his feet in again and walking so much better. I cant believe the difference. Yes soil is a mess and it gets everywhere but the improvement is immense.


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## Sara G. (Jun 1, 2016)

That's wonderful!!!! I am so thrilled to hear that Ned is doing so well.


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## Rue (Jun 1, 2016)

I think we would all enjoy a new, happy Ned photo!  *poke*


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## CathyNed (Jun 1, 2016)

These are the latest pics. He's in bed now but i'll get some new ones tomorrow...
He does have huge joules but i think he is sooooo handsome...


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## Rue (Jun 1, 2016)

A bit of a Winston Churchill nobleness?


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## CathyNed (Jun 1, 2016)

Rue said:


> A bit of a Winston Churchill nobleness?


There was a time when I wanted to call him Clint Eastwood....


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## martaemha (Jun 2, 2016)

I think that Ned has made a great improvement in a seemingly short (for torts and reptiles in general) time. You really do have a great vet. And I am so happy that he is walking again! This is such a great news!


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## CathyNed (Jun 2, 2016)

martaemha said:


> I think that Ned has made a great improvement in a seemingly short (for torts and reptiles in general) time. You really do have a great vet. And I am so happy that he is walking again! This is such a great news!


He is probably not completely out of the woods but he will definately eat his way out. He is definately much better in outward appearance and activities anyway but i suppose its hard to know whats going on under that shell. His walking is definately improving. I originally thought it was mbd but the more i see him walking on soil the more i think it was learned behaviour from not having to use his back legs. Hopefully now in the soil he will build up the muscle in his legs again his weight is staying put. Not going up or down. Id like him to put some weight on. He eas and eats but i suppose he us walking and more active now too. He is currently out enjoying the sunshine and eating my poor flowers to their stumps. Ive had to cover his favourites with flowerpots in the hopes they will recover....


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## CathyNed (Jun 2, 2016)




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## Lyn W (Jun 2, 2016)

So pleased Ned is doing well - and looking so handsome too!!


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## CathyNed (Jun 2, 2016)

No problem giving him his syringe feeds anymore either...no more having to physically open his mouth. He must have decided he likes the taste..


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Jun 2, 2016)

So adorable ! Glad hes doing better


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## Kori5 (Jun 3, 2016)

He is so cute. And look at him opening his mouth .


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## Rue (Jun 3, 2016)

Cool! What a good boy he is!


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## Gillian M (Jun 3, 2016)

CathyNed said:


> @Rue @Lyn W @JoesMum @Yvonne G @martaemha @Kori5
> Got in touch with the vet who said that they are not kidney stones as they would have shown up on xray if they were. She said they were uric deposits that were working their way out of his system from before. She said not to worry if he is acting normal and keep up soaks etc...Phew...well done guys ye know ye're stuff!!


That's great news! Hope your tort is now better.


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## Gillian M (Jun 3, 2016)

CathyNed said:


> View attachment 175911
> No problem giving him his syringe feeds anymore either...no more having to physically open his mouth. He must have decided he likes the taste..


An adorable tort!


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## Gillian M (Jun 3, 2016)

CathyNed said:


> View attachment 175895


So.....cute! GOD bless.


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## CathyNed (Jun 10, 2016)

Updating on Ned again! 
He is doing so so well. I cant get over it. He is back to his usual self again. Thundering around his enclosure, trying to eat my hands, trying to climb unfavourable things. His eyes just seem so much more alert and alive. Im so glad that he is improving this way. He is full of beans and eating everything that crosses his path. So grateful to everyone here esp. @JoesMum @Rue @martaemha @Yvonne G @Kori5 @Lyn W @Sara G. for all their help, advice and support since i made this thread. Its a terrible feeling to have a pet that is unwell and everyone here has been such a great support. Im so thankful to be in the position to be updating everyone with good news each day as i realise how easily things can go the other way. I am so grateful that he seems to be strong enough to fight back. Go Ned...and thanks again guys!


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## CathyNed (Jun 10, 2016)

@Linhdan Nguyen @Momof4
Thanks for following along here and for the help on my other threads! This forum and its users have been phenominal! I cant thank everyone enough!


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Jun 10, 2016)

Im glad hes healthy and back to normal now  
Thats always AMAZING news


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## JoesMum (Jun 10, 2016)

Linhdan Nguyen said:


> Im glad hes healthy and back to normal now
> Thats always AMAZING news


@CathyNed I am delighted to hear that he is recovering so well. Ot really does show what the right treatment from the right vet can do 

TFO was a godsend for me when Joe was so ill a few years back. I am pleased that I can now be part of the support team for someone else in just as much need. This is an amazing group of people


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## martaemha (Jun 11, 2016)

Cathy I am absolutely thrilled to hear your updates on Ned! It's fantastic to hear that he is doing so well. I am honored that my experience proved in any way helpful for you and your little friend. Like @Pearly said in another thread, caring for a special needs pet is a very spiritual experience. I deeply agree with that. And I believe that seeing such amazing results of your efforts, must be pure magic
I too have two rescued Russians. At first caring for them was a struggle and constant fear that they will not make it. Now, after many years, it's incredible to see them well and glowing
All the best to both of you!


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## CathyNed (Jun 13, 2016)

Should i be worried that Ned isnt putting on any weight? He is stuck around the 410g spot where he was before his illness. He eats and eats now but he has been more active too. According to McIntyre ratio he is the correct weight bracket for his size but im not sure if that ratio is considered to be accurate or up to date.


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## JoesMum (Jun 14, 2016)

CathyNed said:


> Should i be worried that Ned isnt putting on any weight? He is stuck around the 410g spot where he was before his illness. He eats and eats now but he has been more active too. According to McIntyre ratio he is the correct weight bracket for his size but im not sure if that ratio is considered to be accurate or up to date.


I have no idea whether the ratio is accurate. 

My suspicion is that increased activity is cancelling out the increased appetite. As long as he isn't losing weight, I really wouldn't worry at this stage.


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## Kori5 (Jun 17, 2016)

CathyNed said:


> Should i be worried that Ned isnt putting on any weight? He is stuck around the 410g spot where he was before his illness. He eats and eats now but he has been more active too. According to McIntyre ratio he is the correct weight bracket for his size but im not sure if that ratio is considered to be accurate or up to date.


I wouldn't worry too much as long as he is eating and active .Just keep him well hydrated. Even people come in different sizes and have different metabolism.


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## CathyNed (Jun 18, 2016)

Update on Ned...
He is eating very well and very alert and active...trotting around...moving around much better on his back legs...his beak was overgrown when i took him to the vet but we both agreed he had bigger issues which needed treatment first. His beak has now chipped a bit on one side and looks a little brittle. Im finished work on friday so im thinking i will take him to the vet again next week for a check up on his general condition and ask her to trim his beak. There is no doubt it needs a trim. 
I added a new hide to his enclosure. He never used to use the old one. Now when his lights in his enclosure go off the room lights are still on but go off about 15mins later. He seems to know this and trots over to his hide when the lights go off and is safely tucked up every night when i come to turn off the room light. He used to aways just sleep out in the open. Its very cute.


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## JoesMum (Jun 18, 2016)

It sounds like he's coming on a treat


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## Pearly (Jun 18, 2016)

CathyNed said:


> Updating on Ned again!
> He is doing so so well. I cant get over it. He is back to his usual self again. Thundering around his enclosure, trying to eat my hands, trying to climb unfavourable things. His eyes just seem so much more alert and alive. Im so glad that he is improving this way. He is full of beans and eating everything that crosses his path. So grateful to everyone here esp. @JoesMum @Rue @martaemha @Yvonne G @Kori5 @Lyn W @Sara G. for all their help, advice and support since i made this thread. Its a terrible feeling to have a pet that is unwell and everyone here has been such a great support. Im so thankful to be in the position to be updating everyone with good news each day as i realise how easily things can go the other way. I am so grateful that he seems to be strong enough to fight back. Go Ned...and thanks again guys!


So happy to hear Ned's doing better!


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## Pearly (Jun 18, 2016)

CathyNed said:


> Should i be worried that Ned isnt putting on any weight? He is stuck around the 410g spot where he was before his illness. He eats and eats now but he has been more active too. According to McIntyre ratio he is the correct weight bracket for his size but im not sure if that ratio is considered to be accurate or up to date.


I'm sorry for just jumping in without knowing all the background into. I'd say if animal is adult steady weight is perfect. I'd just keep and eye on him. Eating/drinking, pee/poo, activity level and sleeping habits, general appearance (skin, scales, shell), eyes, nose, mouth and vent... I always do a quick physical after each bath and watch their behaviors in between. Typically you will know when something is off. We develop connections with our pets and pick up on the signals they send. They "tell" us in their own way when they are not well


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## Rue (Jun 18, 2016)

Think how sharp his smile will be after a visit to the dentist!


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## CathyNed (Jun 18, 2016)

Rue said:


> Think how sharp his smile will be after a visit to the dentist!


Its a pretty dang good smile even without the vet visit!!


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## CathyNed (Jun 18, 2016)

Pearly said:


> I'm sorry for just jumping in without knowing all the background into. I'd say if animal is adult steady weight is perfect. I'd just keep and eye on him. Eating/drinking, pee/poo, activity level and sleeping habits, general appearance (skin, scales, shell), eyes, nose, mouth and vent... I always do a quick physical after each bath and watch their behaviors in between. Typically you will know when something is off. We develop connections with our pets and pick up on the signals they send. They "tell" us in their own way when they are not well


No problem Pearly. Thanks for the input. Ya he has had a very tough time in the last couple months...it was touch and go there for a while....but he is rallying back. His food intake is great as are poops and pees. Nothing unusual there. His activity level and general alertness are 100% improvement on where he was a month ago when he saw the vet. It is such a huge improvement.
Yes he is an adult....ive been told he was about 20 when i got him from the pet shop but i can hardly believe that that was the case. Anyway ive had him for 8years myself since then. He had never been ill until a month ago. His weight is steady but the first vet i brought him to thought he was underweight. He wasnt a reptile vet and im unsure how much he really knew. The reptile vet i then brought him to after that did lots of tests, xrays and treated him for kidney infection and dehydration. She never mentioned that he was underweight. Im keeping an eye on his weight but i agree with you that while he is eating good food in a decent amount which he definately is and his activity level is good and appearance is good he is doing ok.


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## CathyNed (Jun 18, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> It sounds like he's coming on a treat


Hes a star! So glad he is imptoving all the time!!


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