# Why not breed a mini?



## Rue (Apr 16, 2016)

As I've been reading through various topics...and numerous threads...I'm wondering why breeders aren't focusing on producing a 'mini-tortoise'?

Since tortoises require so much space and many people don't have space (but get a tortoise regardless) why not breed a mini-Horsfield's or mini-Hermann's (or whatever species you would like)?

Developing a 'breed' that matures to 2 or 3 " as an adult seems possible.


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## SarahChelonoidis (Apr 16, 2016)

My opinion: It would take much, much longer than breeding a mini dog, which takes only about a year to reach adult size. You would have to wait 20~ years for each generation to get a real sense of mature size to know what individuals to breed together. It's really not practical.


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## JoesMum (Apr 16, 2016)

Because we're not into breeding for convenience of humans. Dogs got bred into varieties for a purpose like hunting, shepherding or rat-killing. 

Torts I believe deserve to exist for themselves. They've been on this planet way longer that we have and will probably be here way after we're gone. We're guardians and not turning them into convenience-pets.


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## Rue (Apr 16, 2016)

Since when do we not breed animals for our convenience? What options do we breed for? Conservation of a species...or something that we desire (be it food, hides, or companionship - or purely for profit).

We are keeping tortoises as pets regardless. Breeders are currently breeding for colour - no need to do that either, but they do. Why not breed for size - and hopefully end up with tortoises that are more easily kept in ideal conditions (and hopefully less animals end up abused/neglected)? My baby is captive bred. It already was bred for convenience.

I can see the time constraint would be an issue...but it's not insurmountable. Someone would just have to start the ball rolling.


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## SarahChelonoidis (Apr 16, 2016)

If you wanted to, you probably could, it would just require a multigenerational commitment. I wouldn't be surprised if we had gene editing technology that surpassed selective breeding by the second generation though.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 16, 2016)

Sarah said it. It takes too long for tortoises to mature. You look for the trait you want to breed into your tortoise, but by the time they've reached maturity, you're probably off on a different tangent.


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## WithLisa (Apr 16, 2016)

Testudo kleinmanni are pretty small (about 4" I think) but still need lots of space, the size doesn't really matter.


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## RosemaryDW (Apr 16, 2016)

Given the number of traits most owners aren't prepared for, this is likely a better solution:


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## RosemaryDW (Apr 16, 2016)

Perhaps this topic would be better placed in the debatable thread!


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## JoesMum (Apr 16, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> Sarah said it. It takes too long for tortoises to mature. You look for the trait you want to breed into your tortoise, but by the time they've reached maturity, you're probably off on a different tangent.


Very true. Breeding for traits in such a long- lived species is very hard. 

In our case, our tort was not bred as a pet; he was wild caught getting on for 50 years ago. 

I'll be brutally honest and say that, much as I love him, I would much rather he and his kind were left there in peace to their thing. I'm not kidding myself that owning him is doing anything to conserve or preserve a species for the future. In fact his genes have been removed from the pool and there's not a lot to be done about it. 

What I can do is ensure he lives his life as best he can and encourage others to do likewise. 

I don't like what humankind does to this planet; I can only try to make sure that my impact is as small as possible


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## wellington (Apr 16, 2016)

Even the small torts need lots of room. Also, just because others have to screw up things, does that mean everything has too be screwed up? Humans are the biggest distroyer of this world. We destroy, then try to save what we distroy, then we got to change it, UGH. 
How about this! If you don't have the room and/or money to provide for a tortoise, don't get one!!


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## Rue (Apr 16, 2016)

If everyone were reasonable and logical it wouldn't be an issue.

But if breeders are producing animals...and people are buying them - then shouldn't we make an effort to 'match' things up the best 'we' can.

...I use entirely too many...' .' and ". "....lol...


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## wellington (Apr 16, 2016)

Rue said:


> If everyone were reasonable and logical it wouldn't be an issue.
> 
> But if breeders are producing animals...and people are buying them - then shouldn't we make an effort to 'match' things up the best 'we' can.
> 
> ...I use entirely too many...' .' and ". "....lol...


NO! we shouldn't. Just because something is being done, does not make it right.


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## dmmj (Apr 16, 2016)

you could breed a smaller tortoise but you would still need a lot of space they love to roam even a small tortoise like Russians require lots and lots and lots of space so breeding for size wouldn't make much sense


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## theguy67 (Apr 16, 2016)

Shoulds and shouldn'ts are kinda exhausting and a tad bit annoying to me. Everyone has their own morality, and belief systems so a topic of what is morally right or wrong to do with a species is just going to run in circles.

Leaving the animal in the wild will do nothing but put it in the path of deforestation or on to someones plate for those that are in the way(anyone ever google red footed tortoise meat market?). Now, I'm not saying we SHOULD remove them from the wild, but NOT owning them isn't going to save them, especially when they were captive bred in the first place. The only way to make humanity truly care about something is to tie money to it, and that will probably never change. Money is a great motivator.

The only problem I see with breeding for a dwarf or mini tortoise is the time required to do so. As mentioned before, people already breed for coloration.


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## ZEROPILOT (Apr 16, 2016)

The way things are going. In little more than a few more generations populations of most tortoises will be kept primarily by private keepers and in zoos it seems. The world is getting smaller. Habitats are dissappearing.
I think that "more colorful, smaller and easier to manage" strains WILL happen. It's already happening. And it will be driven by money. Not by what is in the animals best interests.


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## ColleenT (Apr 17, 2016)

When i was looking at torts and trying to decide, size was the factor. I ended up getting Three-toed box turtles. Still sort of like a tort, but not as big, and care is a bit different. I know i could never give a tortoise what it needs.


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## CoopScoopMe (Apr 26, 2016)

It would take far too long.


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## Loohan (Apr 26, 2016)

Also, when you fool with nature that way, it tends to create different genetic problems:
https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=problems+with+mini+breeds&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8


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## Kapidolo Farms (Apr 26, 2016)

There are indeed very small species that reproduce in captivity relatively well. They are okay to keep in a vivarium of about 2 X 4 foot or 8 square feet. 

@Rue Just how small an enclosure are you thinking would house this mini tortoise?

Also there are biological limits to small size. Eggs have to be laid out of cloaca openings bordered by a plastron and carapace. Tortoise eggs have to be about 20 grams or more to be viable. Those really small species have many very unique adaptations to be able to lay the minimum size egg from a very small body. Unless you are suggesting the eggs always be surgically laid, sorta like some bulldogs are always delivered by C-section (so I've been told).

Even 'small people' humans have a hard time with natural birth. You're not just indicating for a small adult size, but a whole new reproductive physiology too.


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## Turtlepete (Apr 26, 2016)

Unless you focus on a species that has an exceptionally quick reproduction rate (new generations within 2 years) it wouldn't just be a multi-generational commitment of the tortoise, it would be a multigenerational commitment for an entire family. If you were attempting to produce a mini of a popular tortoise such as a redfoot, the project would outlast the creator and require the commitment of their children, should they have any. Decades would go by before you would see any worthwhile results.

There are a lot of other reasons why this wouldn't work the way it does in snakes. Compare it to the popularly "morphed" ball python. Most of the characteristics that are desired within snake morphs focus around color and pattern, both of which can be more or less distinguished at birth. This makes it easy to pick a few focus specimens from a clutch and sell off the surplus. This wouldn't work when breeding for size, and you would find yourself stuck with quite literally _hundreds _of specimens before you were even able to distinguish which specimens would be appropriate to reproduce. Not to mention snakes often produce larger clutches, giving more possibility to find the correct fit for the desired characteristics.


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## WithLisa (Apr 26, 2016)

Will said:


> Tortoise eggs have to be about 20 grams or more to be viable.


I've seen much smaller eggs and I know they can be viable too. 
Recently I even found pictures of a 3g hatchling, what a tiny little tort!


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## Kapidolo Farms (Apr 27, 2016)

WithLisa said:


> I've seen much smaller eggs and I know they can be viable too.
> Recently I even found pictures of a 3g hatchling, what a tiny little tort!


Fair enough. Homopus signatus eggs (smallest species) are in the range of 12 to 15 grams, about the same as Egyptian tortoises. The result a great deal of evolution. I am thinking more about those Bulldogs.

With chelonians bigger eggs within a species provide larger neonates which have a better survival rate. Even if the miniaturization worked it is all counter to the OP's intent, to have a less demanding species (variant). Maybe the idea is a sole pet for companionship with no regard to the effort that may be required to create it?? Who knows? It's an interesting question to contemplate. 

I pretty much like them as found in-situ, in my ex-situ. LOL


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