# Monkey Pics for TerryO



## Tom (Mar 10, 2010)

Didn't want to hijack jazzywoo's thread, but saw your interest in squirrel monkeys. These pics are from my job on Sunday. The squirrel monkey is Bamboo. He's about 25 years old now and I've been working with him since he was 11. The tortoise belongs to my buddy and I'll be doing a separate post on him as soon as I can get some good pics. He was given to my friend a few months ago and his lower beak is overgrown. I want to post close up pics and get advice before I start hacking away at it. It doesn't seem to bother him.

Hope you aren't too upset that I am one of those evil-exploit-monkeys-for-profit-people. He does have a large indoor/outdoor cage, if that makes it any better.


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## Stephanie Logan (Mar 10, 2010)

I don't get it.

Odd couple out for dinner and a dance?


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## spikethebest (Mar 10, 2010)

Tom, was that the one you were holding infront of me?


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## dreadyA (Mar 10, 2010)

Too funny. Have you ever Sen that video of a small monkey riding a dog like a.cowboy? Hilarious!

Seen*


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## terryo (Mar 10, 2010)

Hope you aren't too upset that I am one of those evil-exploit-monkeys-for-profit-people. He does have a large indoor/outdoor cage, if that makes it any better.

Great pictures.
I am against breeding houses (something like puppy mills) that take the babies away from their mothers right after birth, put them in incubators, and sell to people who want children but can't have them, and then substitute with a primate. I sat in someone's living room pretending to buy a 1 week old baby. As I sat there you could hear the screams of the mother, coming from the top floor. There was a Spider monkey who chewed off one of her fingers...another pulled at her breast so bad that it wouldn't stop bleeding....and I could go on and on. They are no different than human mothers. And they just keep breeding them, just like in the puppy mills. I am out of that now, but the screams still haunt me.
I will have to post some pictures of our little rescue.


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## Tom (Mar 10, 2010)

Stephanie Logan said:


> I don't get it.
> 
> Odd couple out for dinner and a dance?



I didn't get the clothes either, but there will be a whole bunch of animals together when you see the commercial. We just filmed them separately or in pairs and they'll put them all together in post production with computers. There was also a Russian Boar, Toad, cat, dog and a few others.



spikethebest said:


> Tom, was that the one you were holding infront of me?



Yes. That's my little man.



terryo said:


> Hope you aren't too upset that I am one of those evil-exploit-monkeys-for-profit-people. He does have a large indoor/outdoor cage, if that makes it any better.
> 
> Great pictures.
> I am against breeding houses (something like puppy mills) that take the babies away from their mothers right after birth, put them in incubators, and sell to people who want children but can't have them, and then substitute with a primate. I sat in someone's living room pretending to buy a 1 week old baby. As I sat there you could hear the screams of the mother, coming from the top floor. There was a Spider monkey who chewed off one of her fingers...another pulled at her breast so bad that it wouldn't stop bleeding....and I could go on and on. They are no different than human mothers. And they just keep breeding them, just like in the puppy mills. I am out of that now, but the screams still haunt me.
> I will have to post some pictures of our little rescue.



I understand. When I get new monkeys, which is hardly ever, I like to leave them on the moms for 7-8 months at least. The mom and the troop teach them manners and how to behave like a monkey. Works way better for us that way. The only time I bottle raise babies is when the mother rejects them.


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## terryo (Mar 10, 2010)

Here's my youngest son on Christmas (our Christmas card). We dressed him up as Aladdin, and Abby was Abu. She was about 6 months old here.


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## Candy (Mar 10, 2010)

Terry how cute they both are in that photo. How long did you keep the monkey? Are they very hyper or not? Do they bit at all? Did you have to keep a diaper on it like a baby?


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## terryo (Mar 10, 2010)

We got her when she was three months old and we had her for a long time, but eventually we had to do what was best for her (what we were supposed to do in the first place). We kept rejecting places because we felt they weren't suitable. She was always very calm and tame, and never bit anyone. When it got dark outside, she would go in her cage (7 foot one) and go to bed on her own. Sometimes she would go to bed with my son and sleep with him. When I went out, I would lock her in the cage..the only time she was caged. She didn't wear diapers, but would go into her cage and sit in the corner to do whatever. She was very clean, and if her hands got dirty when she was eating, she would go to the sink in the kitchen, and turn the water on and wash them. At Christmas or birthdays, she would open each present and go put it in her bed before she opened another one. She gave kisses and hugs...she was VERY human like. The first one we fostered was a Marmoset monkey. But after raising Abby and having to give her up, I will never do it again. It was like giving up a child. Very heartbreaking.


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## Stephanie Logan (Mar 10, 2010)

You have had such fascinating life episodes of love and loss, Terry.

Those descriptions of Abby's behavior are preternatural; I would be completely unnerved by having such an intelligent and sensitive creature in my care. If you are able, do you mind telling us where Abby is living now? Do you get to visit her? Does she still miss you?

And your son looks perfectly irresistable in these photos...I want a hug!


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## terryo (Mar 11, 2010)

Stephanie Logan said:


> You have had such fascinating life episodes of love and loss, Terry.
> 
> Those descriptions of Abby's behavior are preternatural; I would be completely unnerved by having such an intelligent and sensitive creature in my care. If you are able, do you mind telling us where Abby is living now? Do you get to visit her? Does she still miss you?
> 
> And your son looks perfectly irresistable in these photos...I want a hug!



Primates like her can never be rehabilitated and put back into the wild, so she is in a beautiful sanctuary like place, with others of her kind. I have many pictures of her sitting up in a tree eating flowers. It's like a mini rainforest. Very beautiful. No, I don't want to visit her, and they really don't encourage you to visit for at least 6 months. 
At one point I was thinking of going into "helping hands", but I don't think I could handle that, so now I just sit in my garden and play with my turts and torts. 
Sorry for hijacking your thread....Got any more pictures "Roachman"?


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## Tom (Mar 11, 2010)

This is Dagny. She's owned by a friend of mine and she was the back-up baboon the first time I went to Africa in 1999. I was her first boyfriend.


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## spikethebest (Mar 11, 2010)

awwwww what a cutie!!!


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## Stephanie Logan (Mar 11, 2010)

Now, I want to dwell just a bit on that term you use, "boyfriend".

I would like to bring to your attention that any animal who adopts such an intense expression of antagonism as Dagny does in this photo, cannot be in any way well-disposed toward the creature behind the camera, whom I assume was you.

Usually one associates the term "boyfriend" as one that denotes a pleasant, mutually affectionate relationship, or am I just way off base here? 

What kinds of activities did you two do together?


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## Tom (Mar 11, 2010)

She was raised by my friend and didn't ever form any relationships with anyone else. She was 3 or 4 when I came along and that's right around the time they want to start breeding. She used to give me the "come hither" look and try to get me to go off into the bushes with her. She didn't want to breed in front of her Daddy. It was absolutely hilarious.


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 11, 2010)

I have always thought they were very mean and could get aggressively violent. It is so interesting to read the posts from you and Terry and I hope there will be more posts and more pictures. I think this is a great thread.


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## Tom (Mar 11, 2010)

maggie3fan said:


> I have always thought they were very mean and could get aggressively violent. It is so interesting to read the posts from you and Terry and I hope there will be more posts and more pictures. I think this is a great thread.



The old world primates can get very aggressive, but it is only within a certain context. Its as if they all are born with the same rule book and they all follow it to a "T". If you behave and operate according to their "rules" you'll have no trouble at all. The problem is that most normal human behavior violates their most important rules. I've always just "gotten it" with the old world monkeys. They and their behavior just make sense to me.

The new world monkeys, on the other hand, are just randomly aggressive. Fine one minute; attacking the person who raised them (or any one else) the next for no apparent reason. I'm not a big fan of working around the new world monkeys. I've done it a bunch and its always very sketchy. I'm always wondering "when is it coming?"

The squirrel monkeys are an exception. They are usually pretty tractable. Most of them aren't too bitey. On the other hand they aren't as trainable or intelligent as the other new world monkeys.

Here's a pic of my friends other monkey, Azuma. He's a bad dude.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 11, 2010)

He's absolutely BEAUTIFUL!! But OMG!! Those canines!! Is meat a mainstay in their diet?


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## Tom (Mar 11, 2010)

No. Those are just for show......... and fighting.


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## terryo (Mar 11, 2010)

Can you imagine what those canines can do to a person if he ever turned on you? The woman who had the breeding house that was raided, had a male Baboon that she kept as a pet. She was taking him to her other house in another state, and as she walked him to her van, he turned around and grabbed her leg and actually ripped the calf of her leg. She showed me the scar. She had him since he was a week old, and he just turned on her for no reason. IMO, it doesn't matter how long you have them, or how well you treat them, old world, or new world....they are still wild animals and are unpredictable, and can turn on you for no reason and do a lot of damage.


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## Tom (Mar 11, 2010)

I don't want to start a big ole' argument, but that is not so with the baboons and macaques. She got bit for a reason. Probably because she was a female trying to do dominant things to a male. The males are difficult. I try to avoid them. They can never stop trying to reach the top of the hierarchy. You only have to fight the females once, and from then on you're the boss. Women always have trouble trying to work them no matter what the situation. I only know of one exception to this and she still had problems, but was able to manage them with the help of her nasty German Shepard. She maintained a tentative balance and pitted certain males against certain other males and got away with it. She was an incredible baboon trainer. To this day, I am in awe of her.

New World monkeys suddenly turn on you for no reason. Old World monkeys can be aggressive too, but only IF you give them a reason. Totally different story. Female Old World monkeys, like my beloved baboons, will not ever turn this way on a male handler/trainer, once dominance is established, which is usually in the first couple of weeks. If you are a woman messin' with baboons, you take your life in your hands. Not my rules. Theirs.


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## terryo (Mar 12, 2010)

Of course I'm not starting an argument with you...I have no where near the experience as you do, or the education on these things. I only know of the stories that were told to me by the rescue group, and there were many. I would think that anyone handling these animals would have to be very experienced to even attempt it. Anyway the neighbors took matters into their own hands and burned down her house, after the raid. The last I heard was that most of the primates were so physiologically destroyed from years of living in a small cage and breeding that they couldn't be rehabilitated. I don't know though.....it just seems so logical to me that there is a chance of any wild animal turning of their owners. You have to admit that there's a chance.....right?


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## Stephanie Logan (Mar 12, 2010)

Does Azuma know that you and Dagny are "an item?" 

Yeah, I didn't think so!


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## Tom (Mar 12, 2010)

terryo said:


> Of course I'm not starting an argument with you...I have no where near the experience as you do, or the education on these things. I only know of the stories that were told to me by the rescue group, and there were many. I would think that anyone handling these animals would have to be very experienced to even attempt it. Anyway the neighbors took matters into their own hands and burned down her house, after the raid. The last I heard was that most of the primates were so physiologically destroyed from years of living in a small cage and breeding that they couldn't be rehabilitated. I don't know though.....it just seems so logical to me that there is a chance of any wild animal turning of their owners. You have to admit that there's a chance.....right?



Anything is physically possible, yes. It is just not in their nature. It would be a totally aberrant behavior for something like that to happen. It makes sense on an evolutionary level. With the strength, speed and weapons that the old world monkeys have, they would literally tear each other apart if there wasn't some serious aggression inhibition within the hierarchy of the troop.

This is why the New World monkeys are so difficult for me to understand. They just GO, without any rhyme or reason.

When I was in South Africa I would go and sit with the troops of wild Chacma baboons. Most people thought I was crazy, but most people don't know baboons. All of the people that I know that know baboons thought it was really cool and totally safe, the way I did it. This is my point. Old World monkeys can be absolutely vicious, but there is always a clear, understandable reason in contrast to the New World monkeys. 

If you are interested in animal behavior, there is nothing more fascinating than baboons, in my opinion. Wild Hamadryas baboon society is very similar to Muslim society and wild Olive baboon society is very similar to our western culture. There is a book called "Almost Human", by Shirley Strum. She is sort of the Jane Goodal of baboons. It will change the way you view the world. I've got some other good books too, if you are interested.


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## Scooter (Mar 12, 2010)

I am going to go borrow "Almost Human" from the library. Any other books suggestions would be great!


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## jlyoncc1 (Mar 12, 2010)

I have been reading this thread and think the experiences you have had must be incredible. Having no primate experience, could you please explain Old world and new world. Maybe that will help me understand more.


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## Stephanie Logan (Mar 12, 2010)

It's fascinating that these primates share so much of our genetic code, and that their lifestyles can be a reflection of many of our cultural and social mores.

What about that chimpanzee that went beserk and tore that poor woman's face and hands apart? Are chimpanzees "new world" or "old world?"


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## Tom (Mar 12, 2010)

jlyoncc1 said:


> I have been reading this thread and think the experiences you have had must be incredible. Having no primate experience, could you please explain Old world and new world. Maybe that will help me understand more.



The New World is basically all of the Americas. Central, South, North.
The Old World is Africa, Asia and Europe.


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## terryo (Mar 12, 2010)

Animal Planet, March 14th 10p.m. Fatal Attractions ....It's all about keeping wild animals in your home.


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## Tom (Mar 12, 2010)

Stephanie Logan said:


> It's fascinating that these primates share so much of our genetic code, and that their lifestyles can be a reflection of many of our cultural and social mores.
> 
> What about that chimpanzee that went beserk and tore that poor woman's face and hands apart? Are chimpanzees "new world" or "old world?"



Apes are a whole 'nother ball game. They are all Old World.
The chimp behavior that has been popping up in the news lately is just a normal part of chimp behavior. In the wild, all the big males will form eerily silent war parties and go looking for members of rival troops that they can out number and over power. Then they rip there parts off and leave them for dead, just like what they've been doing to people lately. It doesn't happen every day in the wild, but it does happen. They are violent, aggressive, dirty animals and I love them. They are fun to be around, but not when they get past about 10 years old. They usually get retired to a sanctuary at 10-12 years old, because they become too dangerous to work around outside of a cage. It is human error at these retirement/sanctuary facilities that leads to these tragic attacks.

This is a large part of the argument for not having them in a captive environment and cessation of captive breeding. I see both sides of this argument, and it has always been a dilemma for me. I was lucky to have spent many years in the company of chimps and orangs, but that time is mostly over for me now. The facility where I used to work with them got out of the ape business a few years ago. At one time we had 35 chimps and 8 orangutans of various ages. I had some amazing experiences with them.


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## Stephanie Logan (Mar 12, 2010)

So...when does your book come out? 

Monkey Business.


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## nickpanzee (Mar 22, 2010)

I just found this thread. 
I know what you are talking about, Tom. Old World monkeys do have that understandable language. I have learned much of it and I think I do pretty well around them. I'm pretty good with chimps too. I work with the older ones that have been retired to a sanctuary. They came from all different backgrounds. There are a few that I trust (only when they're in a good mood) and there are many that I do not trust because they will try to get you in any way they can whenever they think they have the opportunity. 
I really love working with primates. 

Nick


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