# sulcata question



## scotth42 (Mar 26, 2008)

my sulcata has been off his baytril for 14 days now he has been active and eating great but today i noticed like a foaming from the mouth and a bubble from the nose
then it goes away.my vet said he's fine now but whats with the foam from the mouth? also for some reason he has no urates no gooey white stuff just liquid brownish and lots of it.i thought this could be from the baytril but it has been 14 days i would think it would be clear bye now has anyone ever seen this before? other than that she seems fine.


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## Jentortmom (Mar 26, 2008)

When did you see the vet last??


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## Yvonne G (Mar 26, 2008)

scotth42 said:


> my sulcata has been off his baytril for 14 days now he has been active and eating great but today i noticed like a foaming from the mouth and a bubble from the nose
> then it goes away.my vet said he's fine now but whats with the foam from the mouth? also for some reason he has no urates no gooey white stuff just liquid brownish and lots of it.i thought this could be from the baytril but it has been 14 days i would think it would be clear bye now has anyone ever seen this before? other than that she seems fine.



The back of the nose doesn't go down the throat in tortoises like it does in mammals, it goes to the roof of the mouth. Consequently, you may sometimes see whatever is in the mouth coming out the nose. 

Another cause of foam is an overheated tortoise.

The brown is more than likely from what he's been eating plus the antibiotic. You need to soak a tortoise more frequently when they are on antibiotics. Even if you have a water dish in the habitat, you still need to give them a daily soak for about 15 minutes.

Yvonne


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## scotth42 (Mar 26, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> scotth42 said:
> 
> 
> > my sulcata has been off his baytril for 14 days now he has been active and eating great but today i noticed like a foaming from the mouth and a bubble from the nose
> ...


 when i noticed the foam she was outside and it was 65 i thought maybe it was to cold.i do soak her about every other day everyday when she was on meds.whats weird is all my torts have white urates and so far i have only seen them 1 time from her when she goes it's brown liquid and quit a bit i have never seen this before and didn't know if these things are normal.she was making a bad breathing noise but the baytril seems to have fixed that she very active and eating lots if she still was sick from ri wouldn't it have gotten worse? i would think the breathing noises would still be there also i just hope she's still not sick after my vet said she looked fine


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## Crazy1 (Mar 26, 2008)

Scotth42, sometimes when a tort urinates it has fecal matter mixed in thus making it brown looking, or she may have diarrhea. You said s/he has been off Baytril for 14 days, If it is a stubborn strain of bacteria s/he could still be fighting the infection. It would have gotten better but now off Baytril it could be returning. I would call the vet and talk with them about your concerns. A culture could tell you if she still is fighting an infection and what type. I know you have other torts are they seperated from one another?


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## scotth42 (Mar 27, 2008)

yes they are separated, there is no fecal matter at all just liquid all liquid and no urates last night she started making noises again and today there is clear liquid from the nose when she breathes i see a single bubble.i called the vet she is not in today she is supposed to call me back tomorrow.


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Mar 27, 2008)

You know white chalky uraits aren't a sign of good heath scotth. I have six sulcatas adults and juvies and we never get chalky urates unless they eat to much fruit. Make sure you are feeding your sulcatas a dry grassy diet. And keep your sulcata enclosure around 85 degrees with a cool dry hide spot and a humid hide spot.


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## scotth42 (Mar 27, 2008)

Redfootedboxturtles said:


> You know white chalky uraits aren't a sign of good heath scotth. I have six sulcatas adults and juvies and we never get chalky urates unless they eat to much fruit. Make sure you are feeding your sulcatas a dry grassy diet. And keep your sulcata enclosure around 85 degrees with a cool dry hide spot and a humid hide spot.


so it's good to see just the liquid? i have been feeding veggies but have not fed any in 2 days she seems to be eating grasses and a bit of hay and grazing on clover outside when it's nice.should i just keep this up and cut out the veggies or cut them back.also my indoor bookshelf enclosure is 6ft bye 3ft so i have a cool end hide witch i keep soil cypress mulch and hay so it's a bit moist but not wet.the other end is under the light and is soil sand mix and hay she stays there all the time.i had a water bowl but she just knocks it over all the time so i just soak her.she had a ri and was treated with baytril but somtimes i see bubbles in the nostrils and at night she makes breathing noises but then when i warm her up she stops and seems fine
today she was out all day very active grazing great and all but in her nose i see bubbles not coming out the nose just like inside.i would think if she still was sick she would be in bad shape bye now it's been 14days since her baytril


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Mar 28, 2008)

Having a good appetite is a great sign things are moving in the right direction. I dont know what kind of veggies you are feeding them but I would recommend cutting back on stuff that has a high water content. Also cut back on any vitamin or calcium powders you may be using. My adults sulcatas poop resembles horse poop. Not in size but in texture. Sounds weird right.... but it shouldn't be runny or soggy at all. I will get some pictures to show you.

Your set up seems good. Just try and keep a constant temperature. Tortoises are very sensitive to sudden drastic changes in temperature. You dont want your enclosure to go from this 80s to the 60s at night. Try to keep it around 84 degrees day and night with a hot spot around 94 that you can shut off at night.


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## scotth42 (Mar 28, 2008)

Redfootedboxturtles said:


> Having a good appetite is a great sign things are moving in the right direction. I dont know what kind of veggies you are feeding them but I would recommend cutting back on stuff that has a high water content. Also cut back on any vitamin or calcium powders you may be using. My adults sulcatas poop resembles horse poop. Not in size but in texture. Sounds weird right.... but it shouldn't be runny or soggy at all. I will get some pictures to show you.
> 
> Your set up seems good. Just try and keep a constant temperature. Tortoises are very sensitive to sudden drastic changes in temperature. You dont want your enclosure to go from this 80s to the 60s at night. Try to keep it around 84 degrees day and night with a hot spot around 94 that you can shut off at night.


yeah mine has good hard stools so everything is fine there.i was feeding turnip greens collards and musterd greens with a bit of squash and mixed hays and grasses but the poop was a bit wet now i'm feeding all grasses and weeds and hays.at night i let the temps drop to room temp of about 70-72 sometimes she makes some noises and when i turn on the heat emmiter she stops maybe to cold? also i'm seeing light liquid in her nose when she breathes not bubbles coming out but a light mist is this normal? i'm afraid she might still have the ri


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## Jentortmom (Mar 28, 2008)

Imo I would rather be safe then sorry, an I would go back to the vet and ask him/her to recheck for RI, It could be s/he wasn't quite over it completely when s/he went of meds and now it is starting to come back. I have two sulcatas and neither have runny noses and they don't make noises at night.


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## scotth42 (Mar 28, 2008)

jenrell23 said:


> Imo I would rather be safe then sorry, an I would go back to the vet and ask him/her to recheck for RI, It could be s/he wasn't quite over it completely when s/he went of meds and now it is starting to come back. I have two sulcatas and neither have runny noses and they don't make noises at night.


yeah thats what i'm going to to called a different vet hopefully i can get something stronger than baytril


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## scotth42 (Mar 29, 2008)

well i went to vet today and she told me to get more vitamin a into his diet and that should fix the ri that is the stupidest thing i have heard yet. she seen the bubbles and would not treat with antibiotics this is the 3rd vet i have been to none have any idea what to do with this tort. i totally do not know what else to do.i have spent over 200 on vets and have gotten nothing if your thinking of a sulcata in east tn i would rethink it the vets are worthless. i have been charged 60 bucks to be told there is nothing wrong even though there was bubbles and gasping from the nose that was vet 1, then vet 2 7 injections in a row of baytril when it should have been every other day then no rechecks or call backs she would not return any of my calls after telling them the baytril did not work what a joke. then vet 3 after telling me on the phone she was exotic vet. when i got there and started asking questions about cultures and stuff she tells me that she's a vet that has interests in reptiles lol so she knows nothing. i can't believe this she tries to tell me my mega ray uv bulb is not full spectrum by now I'm trying not to laugh in her face then she tries to explain the difference of a water turtle and a tortoise are you kidding me. so i say well after the baytril did not work do you think sweet potatoes will fix her and she said yes the vit a will do it. then after being told the office visit was 40.00 she charges me 65.00 i ask why and they tell because she talked to me for a longer time. now I'm about to go postal so now my tort is still wheezing with slight bubbles but i will try sweet potatoes. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


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## bdoyle (Mar 29, 2008)

I'm so sorry to hear about this..

its all too common for vets to not know their way around reptiles.. 

In my area, Very few tortoises are kept.. I'm pretty confident my Vet's first time seeing a sulcata was when i took him in last Wed.

Luckily the vet is at least very active in the online reptile community so is at least as well read on the subjects as I am. So we can work together on things in the future.

The issue now with your tort is what to do..

i would say.. vet #2.. who gave the antibiotic injections... did they give you needles to take home an apply?.. Why not make another appointment with them.. under another name.. get the appointment and show up with him and proceed as if your 1st treating it lol.. perhapse she / he wont recognise your face.

Its almost 100% certain that your tortoise needs further injections..


I'm going to go out on a limb here.. and point you to something that you may or may not want to consider..

There is a home-treatment option, that involves an electronic Nebulizer ( A device asthma patients use , that basicly takes a diluted medication and turns it into an extremely fine mist that is then mixed with oxygen and breathed in via a mask )
and also uses F10 Veterinary disinfectant. a natural non-irritative disinfectant that when diluted ( 200:1 ) and used through a nebulizer has been found to be very effective in treatments of RI in reptiles.

My experience is mostly with snakes but search the net you'll see how its done for tortoises as well. Mostly in the UK it seems however.

Here's a breif description of the treatment process

First dilute your F10 5mls in 1 litre of pre-boiled cold water.

It doesn't matter what water you use in the base of the machine as it is not nebulised.

Add approx 3mls of diluted F10 to the dose cup of the neb.

If your viv is huge then better done in tub, I do mine in viv as she actively likes her neb.

Don't use any of the masks, just put it near her.

Each neb lasts about 10mins, I do this twice (one after the other) in the morning and the same in the evening.

It doesn't matter if the snake knocks it over, s'long as the machine can't get knocked into water.

I am unaware of any potential problems to look out for with this method.

You should see an improvement within 48hours but you may need to continue treatment for a week or so.



So this is a home-remedy that might potentially be your best option.

Ebay has nebulisers available for under $100.

and by the sounds of your vet bills, and your lack of knowledgable vet options might be your best option

Some helpful links regarding this treatment and the products mentioned

http://www.f10biocare.co.uk/
http://www.evergreen-nebulizers.co.uk/categories/budget.html
http://www.healthandhygiene.net/news.php

Hope this helps, 

I'm not saying i reccomend this treatment.. but its an option thats out there. Like anything , take online advice with a grain of salt because I'm quite certain im not a vet. lol


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## scotth42 (Mar 29, 2008)

bdoyle said:


> I'm so sorry to hear about this..
> 
> its all too common for vets to not know their way around reptiles..
> 
> ...


vet 2 i called back and they said she would call me back but never did i called again and was told the same thing so i'll call again monday. what it is they don't want to deal with it and they're hoping i'll go away this is what makes me mad. i could take him to the collage med center in knockville but thats like a 3 hr drive
also she said a culture is 130.00 this seemed high to me and then she said even with that theres no way to tell what's wrong this don't make sense to me why do a culture if it's not going to help.i really don't think this is going to get better on it's own she was sleeping though the night now she is making a squeaking sound all night.


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Mar 29, 2008)

sorry, but that is pretty normal. Vets dont know a whole lot about tortoises. Sorry I hope your tortoise gets better.


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## bdoyle (Mar 29, 2008)

Hmmmm...

Well I have sent an email to a friend who lives down there, he keeps some venomous snakes so im sure he's got a Vet down there

I will let you know of any responses.

I do not know much about US geography.. No idea how big tennessee is or where you live or anything.. but maybe you'll get lucky lol.

consider the options you have though... 

as far as cultures.. They will be able to tell if an infection is present.. but i would guess an unknowing vet would use cultures to tell them if there is an infection worth treating going on..

a vet with reptile experience would know the same by the symptoms being presented i imagine.

But im not sure where to point you now.. ive offered what i know..

Have you contacted the tennessee herp society? or any turtle clubs in your area?... what about the tennessee aquarium ? they are a zoo from what i know.. and likely have a list of potential vets available. Zoo's get calls like this all the time for referrals im sure.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 29, 2008)

Hi Scott:

You mentioned that you wanted a stronger antibiotic than Baytril. Baytril IS the strongest antibiotic that is used for tortoises for upper respiratory infection. And after going through 2 weeks of Baytril injections, you certainly DO NOT want to go through another regimen of antibiotics for at least another couple weeks.

One thing that most new owners of Sulcata over look is humidity. They think that because the tortoise comes from an area like the Sahara desert that the tortoise needs to be kept perfectly dry. WRONG!! You need to have a substrate that you can moisten. Quite a few sulcatas that are kept too dry, exhibit a bubbly nose. I use orchid bark, but you can use cypress mulch, Bed-a-beast & sand, or any other wettable substrate. You moisten it then the top layer dries out under the lights, but the underneath parts stay moist, provide a humid environment. Way down deep in the tortoise burrow (in the real world) the ground is not totally dry. Also, the tortoise poops and pees in there, further raising the humidity.

So, change the substrate for something you can keep slightly moist. You might also consider using a humidifier (vaporizer) for a while just until the bubbles clear up. 

I never jump right to using antibiotic when I see bubbles. I always wait and see. If the mucous turns thick and the tortoise stops eating, then I go to the antibiotics, but if he keeps eating and bubbles are the only sign, I just let him be a tortoise and wait and see.

Yvonne


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## scotth42 (Mar 29, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Hi Scott:
> 
> You mentioned that you wanted a stronger antibiotic than Baytril. Baytril IS the strongest antibiotic that is used for tortoises for upper respiratory infection. And after going through 2 weeks of Baytril injections, you certainly DO NOT want to go through another regimen of antibiotics for at least another couple weeks.
> 
> ...


 i have a sand soil substrate i have put some cypress mulch on top of the soil on the cool end where her hide is.but you think i should do the whole enclosure? the soil under the light does get very dry i mist it but it does nothing very dusty i have hay on top of that i will put the mulch over the soil and a bit of hay ontop.the bubbles are barely noticeable but she makes a wheezing noise every now and then when the lights are off.i put the heat emitter on brang the temps up to 77 degrees but the wheezing noises got worse when i turned off the heat she doesn't do it as much. she still is very active and has a huge appetite. but the noises and bubbles have been going on for a month now. they don't get better or worse.i will change the substrate tomorrow. my leopard was acting strange for awhile until i put the mulch in now he seems to be more lively now.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 30, 2008)

i have a sand soil substrate i have put some cypress mulch on top of the soil on the cool end where her hide is.but you think i should do the whole enclosure? the soil under the light does get very dry i mist it but it does nothing very dusty i have hay on top of that i will put the mulch over the soil and a bit of hay ontop.the bubbles are barely noticeable but she makes a wheezing noise every now and then when the lights are off.i put the heat emitter on brang the temps up to 77 degrees but the wheezing noises got worse when i turned off the heat she doesn't do it as much. she still is very active and has a huge appetite. but the noises and bubbles have been going on for a month now. they don't get better or worse.i will change the substrate tomorrow. my leopard was acting strange for awhile until i put the mulch in now he seems to be more lively now.
[/quote]

Your enclosure needs to be large enough so that you can have a warm end (around 85 to 90 degrees) and a cool end (room temperature). Just think about YOUR temperature. You are 98.6 degrees. In order to digest his food, your tortoises has to be able to get his temperature up in the 80's. I think once you get the habitat more humid and get his temp up the wheezing will slack.

Yvonne


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## scotth42 (Mar 30, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> i have a sand soil substrate i have put some cypress mulch on top of the soil on the cool end where her hide is.but you think i should do the whole enclosure? the soil under the light does get very dry i mist it but it does nothing very dusty i have hay on top of that i will put the mulch over the soil and a bit of hay ontop.the bubbles are barely noticeable but she makes a wheezing noise every now and then when the lights are off.i put the heat emitter on brang the temps up to 77 degrees but the wheezing noises got worse when i turned off the heat she doesn't do it as much. she still is very active and has a huge appetite. but the noises and bubbles have been going on for a month now. they don't get better or worse.i will change the substrate tomorrow. my leopard was acting strange for awhile until i put the mulch in now he seems to be more lively now.



Your enclosure needs to be large enough so that you can have a warm end (around 85 to 90 degrees) and a cool end (room temperature). Just think about YOUR temperature. You are 98.6 degrees. In order to digest his food, your tortoises has to be able to get his temperature up in the 80's. I think once you get the habitat more humid and get his temp up the wheezing will slack.

Yvonne
[/quote]her basking area is between 90 to 105 she can get to 107 if she wants her cool side is in the upper 70s i put mulch down on the basking side without the hay i split the enclosure so it's half sand soil with the mulch on top on the basking side and just sand soil with hay on top on the hide side his enclosure is 7ft by 3ft at night i could use the heat emitter and get it up to 80 but she seems to like it cooler. she lovin the moister side to she spending all her time over there. should i do the mulch over half or do the whole enclosure it gets hard to spray it with the hay on top.i finally got a callback from my vet so maybe she will put her back on the meds monday


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## Crazy1 (Mar 30, 2008)

Scott, I know this is difficult and exasperating. Vets tell you she is fine. then she is sick. Give you Baytril injects for 7 days and she is better, then 14 days later she is getting worse. People on the forum tell you to see the vet, don't see a vet, change the humidity, check temps and lights etc. This is the world of a new tort owner as difficult and exasperating as it is. It should not be this hard, yet for a lot of us it is. Please know that we all are trying to help by giving you our experiences and suggestions. 

If you choose to take your tort back to the vet, talk with your vet (or check the links and see if there is a reptile vet in your area). Let her know you have been talking with other tort owners and you have concerns, that the Baytril did not get rid of the RI. That you feel you may need a longer dose regimen, 14 days. 
Cultures don't only tell if something (dog, cat, human, tort, pig) has an infection it tells what type of infection it is and what medications will treat it. Vets like MDs do cultures to find the correct medication without guessing, usually only if they have been given a med and it has not worked or the infection is chronic and reoccurring.. 
If she was doing better when she received the Baytril, it could have been a stubborn strain that needed more time on Baytril to rid her of it. When she is on Antibiotics make sure to keep her temps up a little. 

Also work with her habitat to help keep the RI from coming back. RFBT and Yvonne have given you good advice on habitats for Sulcatas. 

Here are a few links to Reptile vets in TN.
http://www.anapsid.org/vets/tenn.html
http://www.herpvetconnection.com/tennesse.shtml
http://www.arav.org/Members/TN.htm


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## scotth42 (Mar 31, 2008)

Crazy1 said:


> Scott, I know this is difficult and exasperating. Vets tell you she is fine. then she is sick. Give you Baytril injects for 7 days and she is better, then 14 days later she is getting worse. People on the forum tell you to see the vet, don't see a vet, change the humidity, check temps and lights etc. This is the world of a new tort owner as difficult and exasperating as it is. It should not be this hard, yet for a lot of us it is. Please know that we all are trying to help by giving you our experiences and suggestions.
> 
> If you choose to take your tort back to the vet, talk with your vet (or check the links and see if there is a reptile vet in your area). Let her know you have been talking with other tort owners and you have concerns, that the Baytril did not get rid of the RI. That you feel you may need a longer dose regimen, 14 days.
> Cultures don't only tell if something (dog, cat, human, tort, pig) has an infection it tells what type of infection it is and what medications will treat it. Vets like MDs do cultures to find the correct medication without guessing, usually only if they have been given a med and it has not worked or the infection is chronic and reoccurring..
> ...


all those vets are on the other side of the state from me Knoxville is like 3hrs away and would be the closest. I'm thinking of putting her up for adoption maybe somebody could give her a better home with a bigger better place to live with vets that know how to deal with them she is active and eating well and a beautiful tort i called my vet at 9 am they said she would call me back and i have heard nothing.i have a healthy baby leopard and a 2yr old russian i just hope they never get sick before i can move out of this place back to Fla..


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Mar 31, 2008)

scotth42 if you would like to adopt out your tortoises I would be more then happy to take her in and nurse her back to heath. Other wise do some of the things suggested she may turn around and get better quicker then you think.


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## scotth42 (Mar 31, 2008)

Redfootedboxturtles said:


> scotth42 if you would like to adopt out your tortoises I would be more then happy to take her in and nurse her back to heath. Other wise do some of the things suggested she may turn around and get better quicker then you think.


how would we go about doing this i think dhl is the only way to ship from here thats if they still do


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## Crazy1 (Mar 31, 2008)

Scott, I am sorry you are having sooooo much trouble with your little sully. I know whether you keep her or adopt her out you will make the right decision for both you and your tort. Best of luck to you both. Sorry those vets are all so far away. Good Luck to you both keep us updated please


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Mar 31, 2008)

I guess it would be ok to keep talking about this in the thread. I will leave that up to the moderator. 

DHL is really good at shipping tortoises. It may still be to cold to ship though. You have to check not only your temps but the temps of the city your package would be routed threw.


Here is a link to the thread about how to ship tortoises


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## scotth42 (Mar 31, 2008)

Redfootedboxturtles said:


> I guess it would be ok to keep talking about this in the thread. I will leave that up to the moderator.
> 
> DHL is really good at shipping tortoises. It may still be to cold to ship though. You have to check not only your temps but the temps of the city your package would be routed threw.
> 
> ...



where you interested in taking her? let me know if not maybe you know somebody
that's interested today i didn't see any bubbles from the nose but the makes this whistle though the nose sometime other than that she active and eating like a pig


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## scotth42 (Mar 31, 2008)

Crazy1 said:


> Scott, I am sorry you are having sooooo much trouble with your little sully. I know whether you keep her or adopt her out you will make the right decision for both you and your tort. Best of luck to you both. Sorry those vets are all so far away. Good Luck to you both keep us updated please


i was wondering i put mulch on the hot side to get the humidity up i sprayed it a bit but now she won't go near the hot side on the mulch and she started digging like crazy all day on her cool end she seems to be bothered by something. she never dug like that she trying to dig thought the wood this is annoying she won't stop why would this be? she has always dug a bit til she hit bottom the she stopped now she keeps going.


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## Jentortmom (Mar 31, 2008)

I personally keep my young sulcatas on aspen. They each have a section in the middle that has cypress bedding that I mist and stir up daily, they also have a humid hides. I never see them in the cypress unless they pass through to the colder side, or the water dish. I do however see them under there humid hides. I mist those often and keep them under the heat lamp and that is where they sleep. When I used soil and had it moist my small sully was miserable, the only place s/he would sit was on her hay pile. A suggestion that was made previously, and I have been told about is the humidifier, I actually am going to purchase one to put in my tort room as it is dry here and I was told they would do much better with that going to help moisten up the room and beable to keep there aspen. It might be worth a shot. I know it can be very frustrating and I hope you get it solved. You might try your local herp society as mentioned before, maybe they could take a look at her and tell you what they think - maybe she doesn't have RI, just needs a little moist air.


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## scotth42 (Apr 1, 2008)

this tort just started digging for some reason i can't figure it out something is stressing her seems to be the mulch
she won't bask under her light she just digs on the soil side she never did this until i put the mulch in. my leopard seems to have improved after putting in the mulch weird?


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Apr 1, 2008)

Thats weird I think my reply was deleted. Or maybe I just didnt press send. 

Any way scott. I suggest that you make a humid hide spot. Not just a humid section in the pen. 

Humidity is good, even for desert tortoises. But they need to be able to get away from the humidity if the want to. 

I also mentioned if you need someone to be there for you and adopt your tortoise it would be an honor. You care a lot about your animals and that is awesome! I would love to see her get better and just stay with you with out any problems. But if you need to give her up let me know.


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## Crazy1 (Apr 1, 2008)

It still seems Scott has some questions regarding his Sully. I see no problem with continuing it in this post.
However if you decide to adopt your sully out I would suggest you pm each other then let others know if it has been adopted out in this post.


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## scotth42 (Apr 1, 2008)

Crazy1 said:


> It still seems Scott has some questions regarding his Sully. I see no problem with continuing it in this post.
> However if you decide to adopt your sully out I would suggest you pm each other then let others know if it has been adopted out in this post.


yes my tort is on it's way to his new home in fla to one of my relatives that will get him to the right vet and when i move back i will get him so he will be ok.i want to thank everybody for the help and tips my leopard and russian are healthy and eating great with no problems i just hope they never have to go to a vet til i move lol


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## Jentortmom (Apr 1, 2008)

Well I am glad you are able to keep her, even if she beats you back to FL.


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## Crazy1 (Apr 2, 2008)

Scott, sounds like you found a good fix for the both of you and I am sorry RFBT that you didn't get her but I know you only wanted what was best for both of them. You have a big heart.


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