# So, really how intelligent?



## yillt (Jan 4, 2015)

My tortoise, Billy has been in hibernation since the start of December and I'm missing him dreadfully. (When do I take him out?) I have been thinking a lot and I just wondered, how clever are they really? Do they have any feelings ( apart from fear and pleasure obviously.) Please explain your answers.Tortoises are creatures of precaution and safety. (No wonder they live so long.) My tortoise recoils when I do movements that are to quick. He seems excited when I give him treats. He gets bored when I take things out of his cage to wash and he has nothing to do. I have seen curiousity, terror, happiness, pleasure, excitement and understanding in him. What do you think on the subject and have you seen your tortoise doing anything of the sort?


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## ascott (Jan 4, 2015)

yillt said:


> My tortoise, Billy has been in hibernation since the start of December and I'm missing him dreadfully. (When do I take him out?) I have been thinking a lot and I just wondered, how clever are they really? Do they have any feelings ( apart from fear and pleasure obviously.) Please explain your answers.Tortoises are creatures of precaution and safety. (No wonder they live so long.) My tortoise recoils when I do movements that are to quick. He seems excited when I give him treats. He gets bored when I take things out of his cage to wash and he has nothing to do. *I have seen curiousity, terror, happiness, pleasure, excitement and understanding in him.* What do you think on the subject and have you seen your tortoise doing anything of the sort?



I do believe that living creatures all have levels of awareness and presence....but I am curious about what behavior you have equated to "terror" and "understanding".....please understand I am not poking fun, I am genuinely curious of these two noted emotions seen...


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## yillt (Jan 4, 2015)

It's ok!  Well, by understanding I mean recognition. He recognises me and his favourite food. By terror, I mean he will be scared if you move to quickly or if you put him in a 'foreign' area.


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## WithLisa (Jan 4, 2015)

Here is an experiment about social learning in redfooted tortoises. They seem to be quite smart. 
http://othes.univie.ac.at/11967/


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## SamJ21 (Jan 5, 2015)

I've had my horsefield for a few weeks now. He is 9 years old. When I let him roam up and down my kitchen which is quite long and thin and the cupboards don't have kick boards on then so as you can imagine if he goes under its a nightmare. But if I spot him heading under I say Ah ah noo and he turns around an goes in the opposite direction. At first I thought it was a hilarious coincidence but he has done it several times for myself and my mum now! I think he is quite clever. Xx


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## Tom (Jan 5, 2015)

SamJ21 said:


> I've had my horsefield for a few weeks now. He is 9 years old. When I let him roam up and down my kitchen which is quite long and thin and the cupboards don't have kick boards on then so as you can imagine if he goes under its a nightmare. But if I spot him heading under I say Ah ah noo and he turns around an goes in the opposite direction. At first I thought it was a hilarious coincidence but he has done it several times for myself and my mum now! I think he is quite clever. Xx



If no one has warned you yet, this is a very dangerous practice. Many tortoises have been killed or injured by this practice and most of us here recommend against it. Tortoise belong in tortoise enclosures, not loose on the floor.


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## Tom (Jan 5, 2015)

yillt said:


> (When do I take him out?)



I usually wait until the weather warms up. Most of the time that is March or April.


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## SamJ21 (Jan 5, 2015)

Tom said:


> If no one has warned you yet, this is a very dangerous practice. Many tortoises have been killed or injured by this practice and most of us here recommend against it. Tortoise belong in tortoise enclosures, not loose on the floor.


He's only out for very short periods of time and is highly supervised. There is nothing he can hurt himself on by just walking up and down the rug.


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## Tom (Jan 5, 2015)

SamJ21 said:


> He's only out for very short periods of time and is highly supervised. There is nothing he can hurt himself on by just walking up and down the rug.



You are wrong. I can guarantee you that everyone who has had a tortoise get killed or injured or had to pay for a several thousand dollar surgery to remove an ingested foreign body from their tortoise though the exact same thing.

The only question is whether you will be one of those people that is able to learn through the mistakes of others, or if you will have to learn the hard way, at your tortoises expense.

Or maybe you will continue to be lucky for a while longer... at least until the day you are not.


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## SamJ21 (Jan 6, 2015)

Tom said:


> You are wrong. I can guarantee you that everyone who has had a tortoise get killed or injured or had to pay for a several thousand dollar surgery to remove an ingested foreign body from their tortoise though the exact same thing.
> 
> The only question is whether you will be one of those people that is able to learn through the mistakes of others, or if you will have to learn the hard way, at your tortoises expense.
> 
> Or maybe you will continue to be lucky for a while longer... at least until the day you are not.



My floor is clean an there are no foreign bodies for him to ingest. So there for in my eyes he is fine. I know what you are saying but I'm saying I've covered all areas to make it safe for him an like I said he is highly supervised and watched while he is out. I'm not stupid. 

Anyway I didn't come on the forum to be lectured. I came on to share abit about Arnie and maybe get advice on things I may be unsure of.


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## Tom (Jan 6, 2015)

SamJ21 said:


> My floor is clean an there are no foreign bodies for him to ingest. So there for in my eyes he is fine. I know what you are saying but I'm saying I've covered all areas to make it safe for him an like I said he is highly supervised and watched while he is out. I'm not stupid.
> 
> Anyway I didn't come on the forum to be lectured. I came on to share abit about Arnie and maybe get advice on things I may be unsure of.



And I am on here to try and help people not make the same mistakes I have made, and seen others make many times. I am here to give advice on things that _I_ am sure of.

Of all the people I have seen standing teary-eyed at the vets office because of something unexpected that happened to their tortoise while it was loose on the floor, I would not consider a single one of them stupid. I don't consider you stupid either. Its not a question of stupidity. It is a question of people not realizing all the hidden dangers until it is too late. You can choose to ignore the warnings and eventually you will learn the hard way what I learned years ago, the hard way, but I hope that someone reading this conversation will make a wiser choice than you and possibly save their tortoise from injury, surgery or death. I also hope that if you continue to do this against the advice of someone who has "been there and done that", that you will be one of the lucky ones that never has anything bad happen.

I wish you and your tortoise good luck, and I won't "lecture" you anymore.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 6, 2015)

Ok...this is the last off topic post on this thread:

We just had a very sad young lady post about a month ago how she unknowingly closed her baby sulcata's head in the back of the door.

So, back to how intelligent tortoises are, ok?


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## ZEROPILOT (Jan 6, 2015)

Tortoises are more driven by instinct and some learned behavior. As owners, we are the ones who must be intelligent and learn what is good and bad and keep them out of harm.


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## ascott (Jan 6, 2015)

SamJ21 said:


> My floor is clean an there are no foreign bodies for him to ingest. So there for in my eyes he is fine. I know what you are saying but I'm saying I've covered all areas to make it safe for him an like I said he is highly supervised and watched while he is out. I'm not stupid.
> 
> Anyway I didn't come on the forum to be lectured. I came on to share abit about Arnie and maybe get advice on things I may be unsure of.




There are many opinions on the subject of allowing a tort/turtle to free roam or not...perhaps another thread can be opened to further "fight" or "argue" about that as well as who believes they are the almighty know all --- there truly is no one way that is perfect---we all work within the geographic locale and individual environment we have at hand, period. You are also correct, no one appreciates being scolded....especially when there truly is no source that is qualified on this earth to judge.

I would like however to point out that the party that started this thread is a very young lady (12) who I can bet, did not want the thread to become this....just saying is all....

Here is an interesting read dear;

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/animal-odd-couples-excerpt-the-emotional-lives-of-animals/8005/


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## crimson_lotus (Jan 7, 2015)

I would like to think they are intelligent, but my tortoises actions beg to differ sometimes. 

I think when it comes to food they can be geniuses, like how to reach an unreachable plant. Even how to escape their enclosure. But other things...like my tortoise trying to get under something when she is way too big, or walking into a bucket because there is a reflection in the back - she did this for about an hour once - show me that she isn't the brightest crayon in the box. She is still adorable and awesome, regardless.


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## smarch (Jan 13, 2015)

Alright heres my take. They are pretty brilliant, but not necessarily in a smart way... but heck maybe its just RTs I speak for. My Nank is an absolute expert at getting to what he wants even if made impossible. We just built him a new enclosure, there a loft above the built in house that I keep 2 boxes of growing weeds for him... but he decided from the start he wanted to be up there. Caught him right away almost up in the plants, moved the boxes to block his way. Day 2 (yesterday while I was at work) he pushed the boxes off the loft and climbed up, flipping himself in the process. Last night, added the little extension on top to add hight and hopefully stop him... he IMMEDIATELY saw this as a challenge and went for it while my dad was still there (see below picture). 
They're super smart when it comes to problem solving, not so smart when it comes to well being, because he ended up almost flipping again... literally for some dirt because no plant is growing yet!


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## WithLisa (Jan 13, 2015)

More stubborn than intelligent...


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## WillTort2 (Jan 13, 2015)

smarch said:


> Alright heres my take. They are pretty brilliant, but not necessarily in a smart way... but heck maybe its just RTs I speak for. My Nank is an absolute expert at getting to what he wants even if made impossible. We just built him a new enclosure, there a loft above the built in house that I keep 2 boxes of growing weeds for him... but he decided from the start he wanted to be up there. Caught him right away almost up in the plants, moved the boxes to block his way. Day 2 (yesterday while I was at work) he pushed the boxes off the loft and climbed up, flipping himself in the process. Last night, added the little extension on top to add hight and hopefully stop him... he IMMEDIATELY saw this as a challenge and went for it while my dad was still there (see below picture).
> They're super smart when it comes to problem solving, not so smart when it comes to well being, because he ended up almost flipping again... literally for some dirt because no plant is growing yet!


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## WillTort2 (Jan 13, 2015)

From looking at your picture, most Russians would consider that climb a mere "walk in the park" not a true challenge.

When you have a corner you must put a cap board to prevent them from scaling the walls. They have no fear when it comes to going up a fence or a wall.


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## alex_ornelas (Jan 13, 2015)

I think they are smart to an extent and it's mainly learned behavior. But when I left for taho for the weekend my mom watched my sulcata oliver and said he seemed sad while I was gone and when I was back all he wanted to do was snuggle. If I put him on the grass to roam he just sat there


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## smarch (Jan 13, 2015)

WillTort2 said:


> From looking at your picture, most Russians would consider that climb a mere "walk in the park" not a true challenge.
> 
> When you have a corner you must put a cap board to prevent them from scaling the walls. They have no fear when it comes to going up a fence or a wall.


 


WillTort2 said:


> From looking at your picture, most Russians would consider that climb a mere "walk in the park" not a true challenge.
> 
> When you have a corner you must put a cap board to prevent them from scaling the walls. They have no fear when it comes to going up a fence or a wall.


Yeah he was using the thermometer as a stair so that's been moved a little over and if that fails we're capping the corners. So far no incidents though.
I honestly didn't know about the capping until last night so now that all the substrate is in its become the last resort option here.


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## ascott (Jan 13, 2015)

smarch said:


> Alright heres my take. They are pretty brilliant, but not necessarily in a smart way... but heck maybe its just RTs I speak for. My Nank is an absolute expert at getting to what he wants even if made impossible. We just built him a new enclosure, there a loft above the built in house that I keep 2 boxes of growing weeds for him... but he decided from the start he wanted to be up there. Caught him right away almost up in the plants, moved the boxes to block his way. Day 2 (yesterday while I was at work) he pushed the boxes off the loft and climbed up, flipping himself in the process. Last night, added the little extension on top to add hight and hopefully stop him... he IMMEDIATELY saw this as a challenge and went for it while my dad was still there (see below picture).
> They're super smart when it comes to problem solving, not so smart when it comes to well being, because he ended up almost flipping again... literally for some dirt because no plant is growing yet!




Tenacious for sure....one of the points of tortoise character that I find most endearing....


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 13, 2015)

I believe in socializing them. Some keepers say they are wild animals and should be treated as such. I _socialized Bob and took him a lot of places and it seems to make him think and he just acts different. If I haven't spent enough time with him, he stands on my feet and tries to get up to my face to sniff around. He is very affectionate_ and actually plays with me. We chase a bucket or just walk up and down the street. He will follow me wherever I go. I personally think that a turtle or tortoise who has not been socialized is being cheated out of a different kind of tort life...I wouldn't know what to do without Bob for company. He's better company than any person I ever met...


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## bouaboua (Jan 14, 2015)

Oh.....They do get very smart. Out smart me some time! ! !!


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## Prairie Mom (Jan 14, 2015)

maggie3fan said:


> I believe in socializing them. Some keepers say they are wild animals and should be treated as such. I _socialized Bob and took him a lot of places and it seems to make him think and he just acts different. If I haven't spent enough time with him, he stands on my feet and tries to get up to my face to sniff around. He is very affectionate_ and actually plays with me. We chase a bucket or just walk up and down the street. He will follow me wherever I go. I personally think that a turtle or tortoise who has not been socialized is being cheated out of a different kind of tort life...I wouldn't know what to do without Bob for company. He's better company than any person I ever met...


Your posts always inspire me to do MORE. Thanks, Maggie!


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## Gillian M (Jan 30, 2015)

SamJ21 said:


> My floor is clean an there are no foreign bodies for him to ingest. So there for in my eyes he is fine. I know what you are saying but I'm saying I've covered all areas to make it safe for him an like I said he is highly supervised and watched while he is out. I'm not stupid.
> 
> Anyway I didn't come on the forum to be lectured. I came on to share abit about Arnie and maybe get advice on things I may be unsure of.[/QUOTE
> I too allow my tort to roam around the place as I live in a flat. It is *clean*. However, and very sorry tos ay this: a large majority of the members is the forum disapproved, didn't like it...you name it, although they are judjing on something they do not know and have not seen.


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## Alex77 (Feb 4, 2015)

Prairie Mom said:


> Your posts always inspire me to do MORE. Thanks, Maggie!





Prairie Mom said:


> Your posts always inspire me to do MORE. Thanks, Maggie!



Mine behaves the same way. I Also know about the look of understanding mentioned earlier. Gaia gets this funny look on her face when I talk to her like she knows I'm communicating something but she hasn't a clue what it means, loll... Also as I mentioned in another thread I started on this same subject, torts have been known to cooperate with other species (eg burrow sharing) in the wild, so I reckon a certain amount of socialization is simply natural to them. What they get out of it psychologically is anyone's guess, but I reckon that it depends on the individual tort; some tolerate human companionship while others seem to enjoy it, or even seek it out. ( And why shouldn't they seek it out? As far as a tort can tell, a human owner is a benign and helpful presence. If she seeks you out, it probably means you're doing something right )


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## Prairie Mom (Feb 4, 2015)

Alex77 said:


> Mine behaves the same way. I Also know about the look of understanding mentioned earlier. Gaia gets this funny look on her face when I talk to her like she knows I'm communicating something but she hasn't a clue what it means, loll... Also as I mentioned in another thread I started on this same subject, torts have been known to cooperate with other species (eg burrow sharing) in the wild, so I reckon a certain amount of socialization is simply natural to them. What they get out of it psychologically is anyone's guess, but I reckon that it depends on the individual tort; some tolerate human companionship while others seem to enjoy it, or even seek it out. ( And why shouldn't they seek it out? As far as a tort can tell, a human owner is a benign and helpful presence. If she seeks you out, it probably means you're doing something right )


Just this morning she came to me when I called her. She's come to me before, but it wasn't as deliberate as it was today. I completely gushed!! She responded quickly (seriously-just like my dog!), toddled out of her hiding spot, and came over to me quickly and directly, so I could pick her up and take her for a warm soak. I won't deny that she's always on the look out for a snack like members always talk about, but I LOVE that she knows that I am safe and is eager to see what good thing I am going to provide for her.

I loved your comment, Alex! Thanks for sharing this with me


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## Gillian M (Feb 4, 2015)

Prairie Mom said:


> Just this morning she came to me when I called her. She's come to me before, but it wasn't as deliberate as it was today. I completely gushed!! She responded quickly (seriously-just like my dog!), toddled out of her hiding spot, and came over to me quickly and directly, so I could pick her up and take her for a warm soak. I won't deny that she's always on the look out for a snack like members always talk about, but I LOVE that she knows that I am safe and is eager to see what good thing I am going to provide for her.
> 
> I loved your comment, Alex! Thanks for sharing this with me


 That's very interesting. Mind you, I don't think that torts *hear*. Please don't take this personal. After a lot of research, I came to find that scientists and research give us conflicting info. I therefore tried my own way: after calling my tort, making different sounds and so on, I saw no reaction whatsoever.


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## Prairie Mom (Feb 5, 2015)

Gillian Moore said:


> That's very interesting. Mind you, I don't think that torts *hear*. Please don't take this personal. After a lot of research, I came to find that scientists and research give us conflicting info. I therefore tried my own way: after calling my tort, making different sounds and so on, I saw no reaction whatsoever.


No not at all! I'm new at this and have not studied reptiles. I've seen debates about tortoise hearing but don't have a clue for myself. She often behaves as if she is HEARING, so I'm very curious about that, but don't know enough to reach any conclusions. If she didn't hear me, she must have sensed I was there somehow and responded to me crouching over. Either way--LOVED IT Nothing makes you smile like having your tortoise toddling into your hands!!!


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## HLogic (Feb 5, 2015)

Torts have a fantastic sense of smell. Perfume, soap, cigarettes or any other odor you may carry can signal them that "the food-bearer" is near. They don't hear very well. It's a physiological failing in their middle (or inner) ear.


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## Turtlepete (Feb 5, 2015)

HLogic said:


> Torts have a fantastic sense of smell. Perfume, soap, cigarettes or any other odor you may carry can signal them that "the food-bearer" is near. They don't hear very well. It's a physiological failing in their middle (or inner) ear.



Very interesting. They must sense vibrations through the ground incredibly well though, right? I've noticed this when approaching tortoises, even when being as sneaky as possible. For example, gopher tortoises in their burrows seem to sense you coming from about 40-50 feet, with no wind to carry smell and no sight of you.


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## HLogic (Feb 5, 2015)

I sneak up on the gopher torts here all the time. And, in reality, I don't even sneak up. They will race for the hole when they have decided it is time but it seems to vary greatly. I'm guessing if you see them, they see you. They do sense some vibration but I'm not sure it's a sense of great acuity. I am able to approach them on my tractor with the mower going and they don't seem to mind until they see the movement.


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## Gillian M (Feb 5, 2015)

Prairie Mom said:


> No not at all! I'm new at this and have not studied reptiles. I've seen debates about tortoise hearing but don't have a clue for myself. She often behaves as if she is HEARING, so I'm very curious about that, but don't know enough to reach any conclusions. If she didn't hear me, she must have sensed I was there somehow and responded to me crouching over. Either way--LOVED IT Nothing makes you smile like having your tortoise toddling into your hands!!!


 If a tort reacts as if it is hearing, this does not mean torts do hear-as you put it, they sense. I remember having learnt this at school: reptiles do not hear. Ok...back then there was no technology such as the net etc. We stuck to books and whatever the teachers taught us. But as I said: it seems to be true that they don't hear, they sense.


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## WithLisa (Feb 6, 2015)

Gillian Moore said:


> reptiles do not hear.


That's not true. They have ears after all and some reptiles have very good hearing (e.g. crocodiles).
As far as I know, tortoises can only hear low frequencies.


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## Gillian M (Feb 6, 2015)

WithLisa said:


> That's not true. They have ears after all and some reptiles have very good hearing (e.g. crocodiles).
> As far as I know, tortoises can only hear low frequencies.


 This is not mathematics where 1+1=2. Scientists can disagree even here. Why would we keep receiving conflicting info?


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## HLogic (Feb 6, 2015)

Gillian Moore said:


> If a tort reacts as if it is hearing, this does not mean torts do hear-as you put it, they sense. I remember having learnt this at school: reptiles do not hear. Ok...back then there was no technology such as the net etc. We stuck to books and whatever the teachers taught us. But as I said: it seems to be true that they don't hear, they sense.



https://books.google.com/books?id=H...6AEwBjge#v=onepage&q=tortoise hearing&f=false


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## Taylor T. (Feb 6, 2015)

Here's a link to a Tortoise Library article on hearing:
http://www.tortoiselibrary.com/basics-2/hear-me/
http://www.tortoiselibrary.com/basics-2/hear-me/


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## SlowMcClouskey (Feb 8, 2015)

My tort likes to play fetch  I never taught her, she just starting picking things up and bringing them to me. Eventually I started throwing them, and she'd go fetch it. I use a walnut, good way to trim her beak and get exercise. She'll also walk circles around me and if I don't pay attention to her, she'll start to climb up on the side of my leg. So silly. She'll also itch her backside against furniture and my leg. I think she's smart in her own way.


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## yillt (Feb 15, 2015)




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## Gillian M (Feb 15, 2015)

yillt said:


>


 Does that grin mean that torts  are smart?


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## mini_max (Feb 20, 2015)

I think they know what they want, that's for sure. There are days max can't put his head in his shell fast enough when I get near and there are days where he darn near tries to climb anything to come up, and out I think, if he knows I'm there. He rarely comes out except when he gets to soak in the big tub instead of his roaster pan. However, on days where I think he's seeming to want to interact, I lay my hand flat in his enclosure. Sometimes he trundles over and climbs on, so I know he's in a mushy mood and he gets held or rubbed for a bit. Other days he'll give me a sniff and pass right on by. Not sure what that means, but he knows what he wants and I don't think its all instinctive behaviour.


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## JasonMcKeownSr (Feb 22, 2015)

Well there will always be people that hold one belief and one that opposes it. With my observation... My Peanut took almost 6 months to show any signs that she isnt just working on instinct. She would duck into her shell when i moved too fast, wouldnt let me touch her head or chin, just ate slept pooped and that was that. But after that time she started to show signs that she knows what is going on. And she started to see me not as a threat but as the food dude. Then after that she noticed i didnt only bring food. I would rub her shell pet her head give her baths. I can honestly say not that she knows who i am. She comes out of her den when she hears me. If im looking into her enclosure she walks under my hand because i kinda tickle her shell and she takes off running around the enclosure. But to conclude.. No they are not like dogs but yes, i do think they have more intellect than just eating and sleeping.


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## Randi (Feb 22, 2015)

I've only had my tortoise since July of last year. My Red Foot had a really rough start, was going to be euthanized so I acquired it. She is about a year old, maybe a year and a few months. I haven't been able to build much of a relationship with it in this short time. If I try to touch her face or approach her directly, most of the time she recoils into her shell. S/he spends most of the day asleep, after daily soaks and food. She seems to associate me with the good stuff - food. I, of course, would like to think she's walking over to me because she "loves me"... until I look beside me and realize the food containers are close.. LOL.   I hope in time I see more activity and personality like others have mentioned. I try not to humanize their actions. I don't think we will ever be sure of what animals feel, all we can do is speculate.

I have watched experiments with Red Foots, like teaching them to use a touch screen, work their way through a maze, etc. At the end of the experiment, if done correctly, they were rewarded with food. I want to say they are just motivated by food.. I want to believe it's due to intelligence.

Food seemed to be an excellent motivation for my Reeves turtle. The first month I had him, he would swim away from me and hide. He now swims crazily at the front of the tank when he sees me, almost as if he's chasing me. I can reach in at any time and grab him. He is expecting food. He seems to really enjoy having his head and neck rubbed, but I can't say it's because he loves me.. I remind myself he's probably shedding and itchy. 

They say the way to the heart is through the stomach... Haahahaha.


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## Gillian M (Feb 23, 2015)

Randi said:


> I've only had my tortoise since July of last year. My Red Foot had a really rough start, was going to be euthanized so I acquired it. She is about a year old, maybe a year and a few months. I haven't been able to build much of a relationship with it in this short time. If I try to touch her face or approach her directly, most of the time she recoils into her shell. S/he spends most of the day asleep, after daily soaks and food. She seems to associate me with the good stuff - food. I, of course, would like to think she's walking over to me because she "loves me"... until I look beside me and realize the food containers are close.. LOL.   I hope in time I see more activity and personality like others have mentioned. I try not to humanize their actions. I don't think we will ever be sure of what animals feel, all we can do is speculate.
> 
> I have watched experiments with Red Foots, like teaching them to use a touch screen, work their way through a maze, etc. At the end of the experiment, if done correctly, they were rewarded with food. I want to say they are just motivated by food.. I want to believe it's due to intelligence.
> 
> ...


 Interesting! You mentioned experiments with torts. Tell me, did such experiments work? I posted a thread called "Training A Tort," as I tried to train my tort not to entre one of the rooms in my flat. Surprisingly enough, it was (and still is) the only room my tort wants to entre. "Forbidden fruit is the sweetest!"  I thought, isn't it?

I'd very much appreciate an answer. Thank you.


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## Randi (Feb 23, 2015)

I'm not sure about tortoise training - but I have seen box turtles trained. Box turtles are more predatory, so more alert. There's a gentleman who is a psychiatrist for children so he trained his Box turtle to do tricks for them so they are more willing to open up. 





Google Red Foot experiments. You can look up the maze test, as well as the touch screen test. They are testing memory and also how they problem solve, so to speak. The maze was awesome, they are apparently using land marks to navigate.


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## Gillian M (Feb 23, 2015)

Randi said:


> I'm not sure about tortoise training - but I have seen box turtles trained. Box turtles are more predatory, so more alert. There's a gentleman who is a psychiatrist for children so he trained his Box turtle to do tricks for them so they are more willing to open up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Thanks so much your alert as well as the video which reallly was amazing. Appreciate your reply.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Mar 17, 2015)

Many intelligence tests have been carried out with reptiles including tortoises and they always scored very badly. It was thus assumed that reptiles were just creatures of instinct with tiny intellects ie. stupid.
But then the clever scientists realized that the tests had been carried out in human room temperatures and not at the ambient heat levels necessary for reptiles to function properly!
Since then tests have increasingly supported signs of social learning and maze finding abilities sometimes superior to many mammals.
Wood turtles seem to be the cleverest, then sulcatas, russians, red foots and Hermann's. poor Tidgy is a Greek, but I reckon she's pretty smart, especially when it comes to food.


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## Chenderson (Mar 19, 2015)

I think it is a bad case of human arrogance to assume that our emotions are complex, and beyond the comprehension of other animals. Ultimately we ourselves are animals, the main difference being, we are able to apply logic and rationalize our actions with complex jargon. Bottom line is, we still act exactly the same, just because an animal cannot rationalize/manipulate its own actions, does not mean it lacks 'emotions'.

I do not think my tortoise loves me, I believe it recognizes me as a care giver, which we would likely interpret into a friend/ loved one. There was an experiment I remember reading/watching which fascinated me, it was done with children; they observed an object that they and an adult could see, e.g. T.V remote. If the adult left the room, a 3rd party removed the T.V remote in clear site of the child. When the adult returned to the room, the child was asked where the adult thought the remote was, the child would respond that the adult thought the 3rd party had it. The children could not grasp the concept that the adult did not see the object removed by the third party.

We develop most of our rationalization and emotional responses as we spend years interacting with literally thousands upon thousands of other humans. i don't believe there is anything particularly incredible about our own emotions or intelligence, just our ability to understand them, and manipulate them. I believe most if not all creatures have the same emotions and to an extent intelligence, maybe just not as fast a CPU, and lack of a network card in I.T terms!

Excuse the rambling!


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## ascott (Mar 19, 2015)

Chenderson said:


> I think it is a bad case of human arrogance to assume that our emotions are complex, and beyond the comprehension of other animals. Ultimately we ourselves are animals, the main difference being, *we are able to apply logic and rationalize our actions with complex jargon.* Bottom line is, we still act exactly the same, just because an animal cannot rationalize/manipulate its own actions, does not mean it lacks 'emotions'.
> 
> I do not think my tortoise loves me, I believe it recognizes me as a care giver, _*which we would likely interpret into a friend/ loved one.*_ There was an experiment I remember reading/watching which fascinated me, it was done with children; they observed an object that they and an adult could see, e.g. T.V remote. If the adult left the room, a 3rd party removed the T.V remote in clear site of the child. When the adult returned to the room, the child was asked where the adult thought the remote was, the child would respond that the adult thought the 3rd party had it. The children could not grasp the concept that the adult did not see the object removed by the third party.
> 
> We develop most of our rationalization and emotional responses as we spend years interacting with literally thousands upon thousands of other humans. i don't believe there is anything particularly incredible about our own emotions or intelligence,* just our ability to understand them, and manipulate them. I believe most if not all creatures have the same emotions and to an extent intelligence,* maybe just not as fast a CPU, and lack of a network card in I.T terms!



You see here, so what you seem to be sharing is that all we humans can base what other creatures "emotions" have is solely based on our ability to "rationalize", "interpret", "understand", "manipulate" which are all feelings based only on ones life--there is not exact meaning for each word....so they can be equated to emotional feelings...and using our emotions we then impose those onto other animals.....again, I do not believe a tortoise is "happy" to see us with the same human meanings to the word---I do believe they have their own book of stuff based on their species and life experiences....no one says they don't have their own set of stuff...but that it likely does not interpret the same way we humans usually narrate....lol...


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## Blkjkoknhrt (Mar 22, 2015)

All I need to know is....wait for it...he's a SLOW LEARNER. Maybe it's just mine, but he has shown learning behavior but it's cause and effect instead of relevance training. For example, Munster has 2 food dishes, one on each side o the middle of his tank. He learned that if he walks all around the edge he finds the other food dish. I've been trying to teach him to cross the enclosure (a trip of 2 feet instead of 4 feet), and he doesn't get it. He eats the trail of treats from one dish to the other, eats at the dish, then walks the wall around to the other food dish. (I maintain the same layout in the tank, routine and stability is important in their little minds). I know its all about instinct, routine, seasonal rather than daily variations, and an accustomed acceptance of maintenance interruptions.
The 2 small upside down dishes are the feeding stations, 1 pic shows half tank with dishes, the other is the full tank. black bar is UVB. And there's Munster, 8 month old H. boettgeri


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## Tidgy's Dad (Mar 22, 2015)

Blkjkoknhrt said:


> All I need to know is....wait for it...he's a SLOW LEARNER. Maybe it's just mine, but he has shown learning behavior but it's cause and effect instead of relevance training. For example, Munster has 2 food dishes, one on each side o the middle of his tank. He learned that if he walks all around the edge he finds the other food dish. I've been trying to teach him to cross the enclosure (a trip of 2 feet instead of 4 feet), and he doesn't get it. He eats the trail of treats from one dish to the other, eats at the dish, then walks the wall around to the other food dish. (I maintain the same layout in the tank, routine and stability is important in their little minds). I know its all about instinct, routine, seasonal rather than daily variations, and an accustomed acceptance of maintenance interruptions.
> The 2 small upside down dishes are the feeding stations, 1 pic shows half tank with dishes, the other is the full tank. black bar is UVB. And there's Munster, 8 month old H. boettgeri


Munster is lovely


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## Cfr200 (Apr 4, 2015)

My parents had a box turtle that would come into their screened in porch every night when they sat out there in the summer. It would stand in front of my mother until she gave it some food. It did this for about 2 years. It got in through the door that they left open slightly so their dog could go in and out. I then put in a small dog door into one of their screen sections and they closed the door. The dog door was about 6ft away from the door. It took the turtle 1 day to figure out how to come and go through the dog door. Thier dog took over a week to consistantly use the door.


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## Gillian M (Apr 4, 2015)

Cfr200 said:


> My parents had a box turtle that would come into their screened in porch every night when they sat out there in the summer. It would stand in front of my mother until she gave it some food. It did this for about 2 years. It got in through the door that they left open slightly so their dog could go in and out. I then put in a small dog door into one of their screen sections and they closed the door. The dog door was about 6ft away from the door. It took the turtle 1 day to figure out how to come and go through the dog door. Thier dog took over a week to consistantly use the door.


 My tort has learnt where the refrigerator is, and whenever I move towards it, my tort follows me until I open the door. "Does this mean it's hungry, or is it just curiousity?" I wonder  . One thing I'm sure of is that torts run for food. But...does a tort know that a fridge contains food?


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## Gillian M (Apr 4, 2015)

Good morning tort owners, and hope you're all well. And how are your cute little (or big!) torts? All well? Hope so.


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## DawnH (Apr 5, 2015)

I loved reading back through these old posts. Tuleo is a year and a half and I think he finally sees me as an okay person. (Food gal?) He no longer ducks and hides, he loves having his carapace scratched and when I carry him outside (or inside from being out) he has his head out and does a soft "swimming" with his legs. Not quick, frantic or stressful - he just softly flies...lol. It's pretty cute. 

I was also very interested in reading the post about socializing. I was wondering about that actually. We are foster parents and I want Tuleo accustomed to people around. Our foster children find watching him and feeding him very therapeutic. One of our fosters girls was three and she would take a stool and watch and talk to him for the longest time. I am sure he has had many secrets told to him.  So far he has done great around people, I wasn't sure if taking him out would put stress on him or if he would enjoy it. 

And to the young lady that started this thread (I think I read you are 12?!) WOW - you rock. Your little guy is very lucky to have you, someone who has sat back and asked this very important question at such a young age. How wonderful.


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## yillt (Dec 30, 2015)

Gillian Moore said:


> Does that grin mean that torts  are smart?


Oh sorry.  I started the post and was smiling at everyone's opinions. (E-smiling.)


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## Gillian M (Dec 30, 2015)

yillt said:


> Oh sorry.  I started the post and was smiling at everyone's opinions. (E-smiling.)


No problem, no need to apologize.


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## Maggie Cummings (Dec 31, 2015)

ascott said:


> You see here, so what you seem to be sharing is that all we humans can base what other creatures "emotions" have is solely based on our ability to "rationalize", "interpret", "understand", "manipulate" which are all feelings based only on ones life--there is not exact meaning for each word....so they can be equated to emotional feelings...and using our emotions we then impose those onto other animals.....again, I do not believe a tortoise is "happy" to see us with the same human meanings to the word---I do believe they have their own book of stuff based on their species and life experiences....no one says they don't have their own set of stuff...but that it likely does not interpret the same way we humans usually narrate....lol...



You know for a rare time I disagree with you. The bond between Bob and I was not because I was the Food Goddess or I anthropomorphisized him. My proof? Read some Bob stories, talk to people who met Bob. There was intelligence and emotion there. It didn't just happen tho, I worked hard with Bob and took him places and let kids ride him and strangers touch him. Now, 'nuff said without tears.....Happy New 2016!


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## Tort1419 (Mar 31, 2016)

Every day when I come home from school, I walk up to his enclosure and say "hi George" so that he can hear me (or rather feel the vibration of the words) and he always looks up at me in a way that looks like he's saying "hi" back


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## Dessy (Mar 31, 2016)

My sully has learned that if he scratches and bites enough at his enclosure in the morning, he will wake me up so i could bring him food. There was a point where he would wake me up at 7am every morning and i was miserable  eventually he learned i was going to show up with food regardless so now he waits patently under his heat lamp


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## turdle yerdle (Mar 31, 2016)

Tortoises are extremely intelligent, most people just can't see it. Every time I come home my tortoise waits on top of his log and sits there waiting for me at the time I come home. There is a potty trained tortoise and even one that comes when called


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## dmmj (Mar 31, 2016)

I'm smarter than the average bear, no wait tortoise.


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## turdle yerdle (Mar 31, 2016)

dmmj said:


> I'm smarter than the average bear, no wait tortoise.


lol


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## Big Charlie (Mar 31, 2016)

Charlie can't figure out how to get into his night box if the door flaps are down, even though he comes out through them every morning.


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## ColleenT (Apr 1, 2016)

my Box turtles have surprised me with their intelligence. It's not that i thought they were stupid, but i never really gave it much thought. They have much more personality than i ever expected and they do seem to learn and remember things.


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## Bogie=babyDINO (Apr 4, 2016)

Big Charlie said:


> Charlie can't figure out how to get into his night box if the door flaps are down, even though he comes out through them every morning.


Hahaha this made me crack up!


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## Cheryl Hills (Apr 7, 2016)

smarch said:


> Alright heres my take. They are pretty brilliant, but not necessarily in a smart way... but heck maybe its just RTs I speak for. My Nank is an absolute expert at getting to what he wants even if made impossible. We just built him a new enclosure, there a loft above the built in house that I keep 2 boxes of growing weeds for him... but he decided from the start he wanted to be up there. Caught him right away almost up in the plants, moved the boxes to block his way. Day 2 (yesterday while I was at work) he pushed the boxes off the loft and climbed up, flipping himself in the process. Last night, added the little extension on top to add hight and hopefully stop him... he IMMEDIATELY saw this as a challenge and went for it while my dad was still there (see below picture).
> They're super smart when it comes to problem solving, not so smart when it comes to well being, because he ended up almost flipping again... literally for some dirt because no plant is growing yet!


Must be the Russian in him!


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## TerraTheRussian (Apr 13, 2016)

That is so funny! My Russian can really climb.


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## Rue (Apr 13, 2016)

Has anyone tried teaching some basic tricks, or foraging tests? They're food motivated - it shouldn't be that hard to set something up - either more seriously or just for the fun of it.

I was wondering if I could teach mine to shake a foot...but I'm too lazy to actually try to teach it properly...lol.


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## JoesMum (Apr 13, 2016)

Rue said:


> Has anyone tried teaching some basic tricks, or foraging tests? They're food motivated - it shouldn't be that hard to set something up - either more seriously or just for the fun of it.
> 
> I was wondering if I could teach mine to shake a foot...but I'm too lazy to actually try to teach it properly...lol.


I very much doubt they can be taught tricks as you put it. 

Running to you in the hope of getting a strawberry or something else yummy isn't really training.


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## Rue (Apr 13, 2016)

I dunno. A 'trick' is just conditioning. Running to you for a strawberry is conditioning. It stands to reason you could condition for something a little more complicated...but just how complicated?


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## JoesMum (Apr 13, 2016)

Rue said:


> I dunno. A 'trick' is just conditioning. Running to you for a strawberry is conditioning. It stands to reason you could condition for something a little more complicated...but just how complicated?


Joe doesn't do complicated. After 46 years of owning him he still hasn't worked out that his head fitting through a gap doesn't mean his shell can follow. It also doesn't occur to him to go further along to where there's a gap to fit through. 

I don't think there's trick-trainable intelligence there


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## Big Charlie (Apr 26, 2016)

Rue said:


> Has anyone tried teaching some basic tricks, or foraging tests? They're food motivated - it shouldn't be that hard to set something up - either more seriously or just for the fun of it.
> 
> I was wondering if I could teach mine to shake a foot...but I'm too lazy to actually try to teach it properly...lol.


I'm too lazy to train an animal. Even my dog didn't learn a lot of tricks. I don't think Charlie is smart enough to learn much. He has other redeeming qualities. I love that video of the box turtle shaking hands and playing dead.


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## WithLisa (Apr 26, 2016)

My torts are quick learners!
Because it was sunny and dry I started to give the enclosure a warm shower with a watering can before I scatter some weeds. Now after three days they are already going bonkers when they feel the warm rain, rushing out of their hides, searching for the food. 

Since a month or so I'm trying to teach my cat to get off my lap when I clap my hands, so I can go feed him - he doesn't get it at all.


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## Pearly (Apr 27, 2016)

WithLisa said:


> My torts are quick learners!
> Because it was sunny and dry I started to give the enclosure a warm shower with a watering can before I scatter some weeds. Now after three days they are already going bonkers when they feel the warm rain, rushing out of their hides, searching for the food.
> 
> Since a month or so I'm trying to teach my cat to get off my lap when I clap my hands, so I can go feed him - he doesn't get it at all.


Hahaha! I don't know if your cat "doesn't get it" I've had multiple cats for many years and yes, their personalities and level of readiness to learn varies but all have one thing in common: they ALL DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO and WHEN they want to do it. As for torts... They have teeny tiny brains. My babies' brain size must be comparable to my pinky fingernail, still I think there's something there! They look me in the eye (seriously! Eye contact!!!) one of them was missing for 4 weeks during coldest month in Texas, and survived! I suspect that me leaving out his favorite food, water and 200watts worth of heat over pile of vegetation that I'd left where I last saw him, had probably something to do with his survival, but having no prior experience with reptiles I worried that he may be just "walking for miles until he gets dehydrated or freezes to death"... So mine (baby Tucker) was smart enough to use the resources I was making available for him... Other than that I don't really have other stories of my tort intelligence. Just yet! Mine are still babies. And I absolutely LOVE that tort doing tricks video!


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## KatyshaB (May 10, 2016)

yillt said:


> My tortoise, Billy has been in hibernation since the start of December and I'm missing him dreadfully. (When do I take him out?) I have been thinking a lot and I just wondered, how clever are they really? Do they have any feelings ( apart from fear and pleasure obviously.) Please explain your answers.Tortoises are creatures of precaution and safety. (No wonder they live so long.) My tortoise recoils when I do movements that are to quick. He seems excited when I give him treats. He gets bored when I take things out of his cage to wash and he has nothing to do. I have seen curiousity, terror, happiness, pleasure, excitement and understanding in him. What do you think on the subject and have you seen your tortoise doing anything of the sort?


When you say 'intelligent' you need to be more specific. Tortoises, are brilliant. Or what you could call 'brilliant.' now, from what I know there are two different types of being brilliant when it comes to animals. (There may be more, if you think there is another type, I would love to join that conversation.) There is brilliant as in adaptability, knowledge of body and functions (mostly), keen senses, figuring out (simple for the most part) problems, good with the skills they evolved to had (in this case good climbing skills, hard shell, instinct, smell, digging ability). Then yes, they are quite intelligent. More than most people give them credit for. 

And there is the more 'human' type of intelligent. Such as Showing affection and memory, creating bonds with others same species or not, Being able to act selfless For another's well-being (knowingly). 'Showing signs of emotion, showing signs of agency (you need agency to be able to have emotion.) Able to have a different and distinct personality. And able to think not as robots, but as a human. Then, to fully answer this question you need to answer the question 'do they have agency?' for you need agency to show emotion and act human (except for the personality one, but we will get there later). Now, I study philosophy, and what I have realized is that we have NO idea about what agency is, we have some ideas, some are very good and some are not, but nobody is sure. And I think we can not even BEGIN to ask the question "Do reptiles have emotions" if we don't even know what agency is. That would just be making assumptions with no data. So when (if) we know for sure what agency is, then I have decided to try to try to discover whether or not they do have emotions. (If I ever get that smart) And I think it is foolish to assume they don't have emotions. For that is just a full out assumption, with no data to help it. (If you disagree on what I am saying, go ahead and contact me privately, so that this chatroom doesn't turn into a philosophical debate). So for that part, nobody knows. 

As I said before, the one thing that I put down in that list is the 'Personality' one. For I do not think you need agency to have different personalities, for I have two tortoises with two COMPLETELY different personalities, one is Calm, Willing, Excited, Tame, Cowardly (When I mean cowardly I really mean non-dominant). And the other is Grumpy, aggressive (towards same kind), Dominant, Hard, Picky, Pushy, Manipulative. Now, many people could argue that they where both different because of the Conditions they where raised in. But, I do not find this to be true, @Tom said that he had raised some Russian babies, that all had different personalities, and where all raised the same way. So, it has something to do with genetics, and I also think that because of this, some tortoises are more brilliant then others. For some can't climb as well, others can't see, or smell, and some don't like to dig, some are picky. So, I think saying that reptiles are like the Borg (from star trek, if you don't know what it is google it). For they clearly are not, and they all have different personalities.


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## Kapidolo Farms (May 10, 2016)

Rue said:


> Has anyone tried teaching some basic tricks, or foraging tests? They're food motivated - it shouldn't be that hard to set something up - either more seriously or just for the fun of it.
> 
> I was wondering if I could teach mine to shake a foot...but I'm too lazy to actually try to teach it properly...lol.



Post #4 in this thread is a link towards answering your question.

Early cognitive studies with chelonians showed they would not step off a visual cliff, and would regularly learn a maze with food available as a reward. Though they would not be faster per episode as a rat, they could learn a maze in fewer trials than rats. 

Long considered a trait, now sorted out by neuroscience, all animals have a "GPS" and they map their area of habitat with a temporal sense added in. "go here this time of year and that tree will shed things to eat" kind of space time ability to remember a food source and be able to reliably find it.

Play is often reasoned a demonstration of intelligence and a few species have displayed what could be considered play behavior.

All kind of things if you step on the wild side and use google scholar.


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## jockma (May 11, 2016)

Not really a trick, just an example of how conditioning can get pretty weird or elaborate for them.

I handfed strawberries (and only strawberries, I didn't handfeed anything else) for about 1 1/2 years. Mind you, he's been with me for almost 4 years so the handfeeding of strawberries was quite a while ago. I only handfed him while he was on my lap. I sit with him when he eats most days and if he's not eating strawberries he'll just eat as much as he wants and then he'll walk away. If I'm feeding strawberries he'll climb in my lap (I guess to get more strawberries?)

Strawberries are my go-to fruit when I'm feeding fruits (at least half the time those are the fruit I feed), so this happens quite often. Only with strawberries. Not mango or any other fruit I feed.

What a weirdo.


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## Neal (May 13, 2016)

yillt said:


> My tortoise, Billy has been in hibernation since the start of December and I'm missing him dreadfully. (When do I take him out?) I have been thinking a lot and I just wondered, how clever are they really? Do they have any feelings ( apart from fear and pleasure obviously.) Please explain your answers.Tortoises are creatures of precaution and safety. (No wonder they live so long.) My tortoise recoils when I do movements that are to quick. He seems excited when I give him treats. He gets bored when I take things out of his cage to wash and he has nothing to do. I have seen curiousity, terror, happiness, pleasure, excitement and understanding in him. What do you think on the subject and have you seen your tortoise doing anything of the sort?



I don't know about feelings, but they do have some intelligence. Enough to develop routines, remember where the food is, remember who the food comes from...that type of thing.

I recently squired a large female leopard tortoise. I have to pick her up a certain way because she's so large and she'll usually tuck inside her shell when I get ready to pick her up. She's figured out that if she rubs her forearms against the top of her shell when she's tucked in, she'll push my fingers off and I'll let go. Kind of hard to explain, but it's such a weird behavior I have to think that it was learned behavior.


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