# Using real grass on an indoor open table



## julietteq (Jun 3, 2014)

Hello,

I am the owner of to beautiful Leo's and I keep them on an open table. I have been experimenting with different beddings and would like to know if anybody has used real live growing grass as I do. I have waterproofed the table, then I put a 1 inch compressed layer of wet sphagnum moss down. Next I sprinkle Azomite fertilizer on the moss and I get a grass sod at the garden center and roll it out in the table. The grass holds for 4 - 6 months and then I replace the moss and get a new sod. I also seed clover in there since the torts really love that. The tortoises appear to love it, they eat it and there is no sign of pyramiding and it is cheap. There appears to be no need for humidifiers or to close off the table since the tortoises are in the grass and plants all the time which naturally evaporates water all around them. There is also no issue with shell rott, since it is not too moist. Has anybody else been using real grass as bedding for a longer period then me and have you noticed any averse affects?


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## akbecker (Jun 3, 2014)

I don't know the answer, but I can't wait to see what people post. That looks great. I like the real grass look and help with humidity. I wonder about the fertilizer...


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## julietteq (Jun 3, 2014)

Hi there, thanks for your reply. The reason why I use the azomite is because I need to give the grass some nutrients since there is no soil in the table. I thought Azomite was the most "natural" one I could find. I did try to put some hydrophonic growing powder on the floor of the table, but it is too strong and "burns" the roots. I do not feel comfortable watering the grass with the growth powder on it, since I do not know if it is good for the tortoises. I hope other people respond. I really feel using real grass could be an alternative to keeping tortoises in a closed extreme humidity aquarium. It just does not seem natural for them to live in 80% or higher humidity in my opnion.


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## Sheldon the russian tortoise (Jun 3, 2014)

Wow its a nice looking enclosure it'll be interesting to see what others think


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## Jhwells46 (Jun 3, 2014)

I know it doesn't seem "natural" for an African species to have high humidity, I thought the same thing when I first got my Leopard and there is a lack of good information on them everywhere but on this forum which furthers that belief. But many experts on here swear by hot and humid and I can attest to the great things that high heat and humidity does for their shells. My Leo was kept too dry for one month while I found this out, and her shell reflects that already. It really does mean a healthy, smooth shell or pyramiding and poor shell growth. Just please keep that in mind. That said, your table looks great! The fertilizer scares me though...if you're looking for a good more natural way to grow the grass, I would highly suggest a little topsoil under your substrate for your grass to be able to gather nutrients from. Also, my Leo loves the wheat grass that is sold at Petsmart as "grow it yourself cat grass". I just throw the seeds directly into the substrate and in a few days you have grass! Good luck!


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## Tom (Jun 3, 2014)

julietteq said:


> It just does not seem natural for them to live in 80% or higher humidity in my opnion.



This line of thinking has done irreversible and immeasurable harm to tortoise for decades. We now know otherwise. It is much higher than 80% humidity in Africa during the rainy season when sulcata babies hatch out, so actually, it is quite "natural".

I like your enclosure, and if your methods are working well for you that is great. The debate about what is "natural" has been had here many times before and it usually ends badly. May I request we keep this thread positive and promote the merits of THIS method of housing, instead of attempting to discredit someone else's proven method of housing?


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## Kirin (Jun 3, 2014)

The fertilizer and chemicals that are in the sod, I personally would never use anywhere around any of my tortoises, are not healthy for your tortoises. Sod uses chemicals so that there are no weeds in the grass and they also fertilize it. You would be better off growing the grass from seeds. Putting down some topsoil and planting the seed in that. I would never add additional fertilizer to the enclosure either. Your enclosure looks very nice, but I would stop with anything that has chemicals in it. This is just my opinion.


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## julietteq (Jun 3, 2014)

I feel that we are all on the same page. Nobody is discrediting anybody, but how else would you prefer I describe what promted me not to put my leos in a closed off aquarium? If you do not like the word "natural" then please give me a better alternative. My objective is to create different climate zones on the table allowing the tortoises the choose what they prefer. I had a section in my table before that was closed off and I basically called it the Sauna. It was hot and humid. The tortoises preferred not to go there. Mine love sitting underneath the leaves of plants.


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## julietteq (Jun 3, 2014)

Kirin said:


> The fertilizer and chemicals that are in the sod, I personally would never use anywhere around any of my tortoises, are not healthy for your tortoises. Sod uses chemicals so that there are no weeds in the grass and they also fertilize it. You would be better off growing the grass from seeds. Putting down some topsoil and planting the seed in that. I would never add additional fertilizer to the enclosure either. Your enclosure looks very nice, but I would stop with anything that has chemicals in it. This is just my opinion.



Ah, I did not know that they "treated" the grass with chemicals. I figured since it said "organic" they would not have used any chemicals! I have tried using soil but it does not work for the grass. Because the table is waterproof the access water cannot drain away properly causing the roots of the grass to rot. However the grass needs water. The Sphagnum moss absorbs the water without letting the roots sit in a puddle of water. As to growing your own grass directly on the table, I have tried that, but the grass just does not have enough time to mature to be able to withstand the trampling of the tortoises. I tried growing a solid grass sod in seedtrays which I could then place in the table, but the torts would trample it within days. 

I however do grow all their food in seed trays using different kinds of seeds (I have around 20 different plants/grasses I grow for them to give them a varied diet) and I have gotten to enjoy that a lot. But it sure takes determination to do that since I had a lot of failures with seed molding and/or not sprouting. But I think I almost mastered it


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## Tom (Jun 3, 2014)

julietteq said:


> My objective is to create different climate zones on the table allowing the tortoises the choose what they prefer.



This is another common error in judgement. Here is why: In the winter time here, night temps frequently drop below freezing outside. Each night I go around and make sure all my tortoises are in their heated insulated boxes and I shut and latch the doors to keep them in overnight. Every once in a while I find one of them parked in some far corner, or under a bush somewhere. If I left it up to them to choose on that night, they would be dead. This is just one example. Here is another. Put out a plate of weeds and grass right next to a plate of strawberries in your tortoises enclosure. Which one will they "choose"? Which one is better for them? Assuming that tortoises have survived with out our help for millions of years and that they knows what is best for them is wrong in an artificial captive situation. Even in the wild many of them meet their death for making a poor choice one day.

There are many reasons why tortoises make the choices they make. Assuming your tortoises didn't like their closed off sauna because it was hot and humid is a mistake. There are many possible reasons why they avoided that area, or chose to be in a different area. It doesn't mean that the other area is/was "better" for them. They may have felt more secure among the plants and less secure out in the open. This is to be expected. I think almost all tortoise would rather hang out amongst plants than be in some sort of transparent plastic box. They may have preferred the lighting in the other area, or soil type, or temperature, or just felt more secure there.

The purpose of the closed-in aquariums that you seem to not like for some reason is to maintain good environmental parameters for the tortoises. Using a closed chamber or covering the top of an aquarium is just one way to achieve this. It is an easy way that works for any body anywhere. I don't know what your temps and humidity are in your enclosure are, but if your parameters are where you want them, then you have found another way to achieve the same thing everyone else is attempting. I am happy for you, and I'm glad you found something you like. What I don't like is the implication that there is something wrong or undesirable with covering the top of a conventional tank or using a closed chamber, because there isn't. Many people have trouble keeping live plants alive and well in an indoor enclosure. I am one of them. I love the look of yours, but that won't work for me. I've tried. I also share the concerns about the sod that Kirin brought up. I don't trust it. I know where they grow that stuff. Its got plastic netting in it and it has to be full of chemicals to keep the weeds and bugs out of it.

In any case, keep doing what you are doing, show everyone how great it looks and keep updating us with progress reports of how your tortoises are doing. I would use your enclosure as an example of a good way to do things, even though you might not want to use mine.


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## Jlant85 (Jun 3, 2014)

Ever thought of doing something like compose tea? 



Get the most organic compose (or make your own) and make tea to water your plants with =) Ill be trying this out also.


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## julietteq (Jun 4, 2014)

Jlant85 said:


> Ever thought of doing something like compose tea?
> 
> 
> 
> Get the most organic compose (or make your own) and make tea to water your plants with =) Ill be trying this out also.



I love the idea and will be trying it. let me know how it works out !


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## byviolet (Jun 4, 2014)

julietteq said:


> Ah, I did not know that they "treated" the grass with chemicals. I figured since it said "organic" they would not have used any chemicals! I have tried using soil but it does not work for the grass. Because the table is waterproof the access water cannot drain away properly causing the roots of the grass to rot. However the grass needs water. The Sphagnum moss absorbs the water without letting the roots sit in a puddle of water. As to growing your own grass directly on the table, I have tried that, but the grass just does not have enough time to mature to be able to withstand the trampling of the tortoises. I tried growing a solid grass sod in seedtrays which I could then place in the table, but the torts would trample it within days.
> 
> I however do grow all their food in seed trays using different kinds of seeds (I have around 20 different plants/grasses I grow for them to give them a varied diet) and I have gotten to enjoy that a lot. But it sure takes determination to do that since I had a lot of failures with seed molding and/or not sprouting. But I think I almost mastered it


organic just means they can't have non-natural pesticides/herbicides or stuff like that. natural chemicals are still considered organic!


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