# A Recurring Issue



## Tom (Dec 14, 2011)

I keep having this problem. Yesterday somebody sent me this photo in one of those funny emails, and it made me think of a good way to illustrate my recurring issue. Let's call the boy in the picture "Jonny". My part will be played by "Me".
Here's the scene, dialogue to follow...







Me: Jonny, I think that's a bad idea. You shouldn't do that.
Jonny: Why not?
Me: Because its very dangerous and you could get hurt.
Jonny: Well I've been doing it for along time and nothing bad has happened...
Me: Well you've been lucky so far, but that doesn't mean its not dangerous.
Jonny: How is it dangerous?
Me: Sticking a metal butter knife into a live electrical socket is dangerous. You could be shocked or electrocuted.
Jonny: But I have not been shocked or electrocuted yet, so you must be wrong and its NOT dangerous.
Me: I already said that you've just been lucky so far...
Jonny: Well that's your your unfounded opinion. Nothing but heresay. Can you show me scientific proof that this is dangerous? Do you even know how many volts or what the wattage of this outlet is? Maybe you are wrong and its not dangerous at all.
Me: No. I don't have any scientific studies to cite and I don't know EXACTLY what the voltage in THAT socket is, but I do have first hand experience with sticking a knife into a live socket, and let me tell you it was not pleasant. I'm lucky to be alive.
Jonny: Well there are many factors involved and just because it happened to you does not mean it will happen to everyone else. Maybe you just did it wrong.
Me: Look, even if there is some scientific proof out there, I don't know where it is or how to find it, but I do have a basic level of understanding of electricity and what it can do. Now I can't find 10 research papers to verify what I am telling you, but that does not mean it is not true. I recommend that you STOP doing that BEFORE you learn the hard way that what I am trying to tell you is true.
Jonny: Well you do it your way and I'll do it mine. Further, I'm going to go ahead and say that its just fine to everyone and continue to demonstrate that its just fine...

Etc., etc., etc... 
I'm sure we can all guess how the story ends. Might take a few hours. Might take a month. But we know what's gonna happen. Well at least I know what's gonna happen.


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## dmarcus (Dec 14, 2011)

Luck runs out eventually, so it's best to not even do it...


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## Zamric (Dec 14, 2011)

....Aaaahhhh but you fail to understand that Johny NEEDS to learn this lesson all on his own! There are LOT'S of Johnys out there and they only learn one way... from The School Of Hard Knocks... what you should do is take the knife away and give Johny a paperclip instead! I learned this paticular lesson with a screw driver and a light socket!


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## Jacqui (Dec 14, 2011)

Of course what you fail to realize Tom is there is no electricity running into that outlet and Johny knows that. Sometimes just because you think you know something, doesn't mean that knowledge can be applied to all cases.


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## dmmj (Dec 14, 2011)

Make the outlets look like bunnies, then make him terrified of bunnies.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 14, 2011)

And while most people will read and learn from others' experiences, there are always some who have to learn on their own...even at the tortoise's expense.


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## SulcataSquirt (Dec 14, 2011)

Jonny b DUMB! lol most little Jonnys and some big Jonnys always have to learn on their own. I have a few friends like that, I can tell them my experience with somthing but they are always like nahhhhh, then it happends to them.... never thought it could have.


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## Jacqui (Dec 14, 2011)

Sometimes those "dumb" things and not listening to others, also may lead to big advances in our knowledge. Was not so long ago, Johny did not listen to all them folks who told him the world was flat and if he went too far, he would fall off it.... Then there was the famous, "Geesh Johny I tried to fly and I fell. Man is just not suppose to fly." Did Johny listen? No, he was brave enough to try it for himself. Then to take what he learned and try again. Finally Johny was able to fly. Boy sure glad not all Johnys are "dumb" enough to just follow the beaten path and folks who say, "You need to learn from me and never try for yourself". Guys sometimes not listening to others and learning from your own mistakes is not bad, sometimes it a marvelous thing.


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## Laura (Dec 14, 2011)

Sometimes I just bite my tongue....


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## Madkins007 (Dec 14, 2011)

Learning is a pretty complicated thing. How we learn, what we learn from a given lesson, the best way to teach a given topic, etc. all are more complicated to answer than many people think.

I personally think forums are generally a poor way to learn or teach. The assumption of every new person on a site is that everyone at the site is roughly equal. Why should I take THAT person's advice over THIS one's? Why is HER opinion or experience more relevant than mine? Things get even harder when someone gets several pieces of apparently conflicting advice from the thread or other sources. 

Forums are great for a lot of things- dealing with specific questions, sharing ideas, etc. but actually teaching to the point that they change their behaviors or beliefs is much harder in a place like this.


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## Maggie Cummings (Dec 14, 2011)

But when someone lays all their credentials out there for everyone to see, then says "this is what I learned" I think most of us should learn from that person and listen to them. I don't think listen or follow blindly, but pay attention to that person. As an example, my sister taught me most of what I learned about chelonia keeping. And because I know how experienced she is I then took her opinions on as my own. It wasn't until years later I started to develop my own opinions. I didn't follow her advice about a couple of things and in both of those instances an animal got sick and almost died. I think it's important to learn from others experience.


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## terryo (Dec 14, 2011)

*I personally think forums are generally a poor way to learn or teach. The assumption of every new person on a site is that everyone at the site is roughly equal. Why should I take THAT person's advice over THIS one's? Why is HER opinion or experience more relevant than mine? Things get even harder when someone gets several pieces of apparently conflicting advice from the thread or other sources. *


There are some people who have little or no confidence, and others who are overly confident. For the people who have little or no confidence, forums can be very confusing and frustrating way to learn, and leave them in tears....that was me when I got my first tortoise. The overly confident will always think they know better or their way is better, and wouldn't take anyone's advice no matter where they got it. We've all seen some babies die because of this. Now, the way I learn from forums is to take a little knowledge from each person I think is experienced and incorporate it and make it my own. Another thing...I would never (again) listen to anyone who doesn't have many years of hands on experience. These are the people I want to learn from. I also hate when someone tells me "this is the right way to do it". I'm only interested in your opinion and what has worked for you for many years. Oh crap....do I sound like Lil' Jonny? I hope not.


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## wellington (Dec 14, 2011)

The best you can do is tell little jonny what you know and how and why you know and be done with it. Little jonny will have to do with it what he wants. I know a little jonny and after about 10 years, yes 10, I have given up. I now just say, to my little jonny, I don't know. I will still try to educate people about the things I know, but eventually, if they keep doing the same thing wrong, I will have to also answer them with the I don't know. Saves me headaches and friendships


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## dmmj (Dec 14, 2011)

But, wait. I do know better and my way is better.


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## Jacqui (Dec 14, 2011)

dmmj said:


> But, wait. I do know better and my way is better.



Of course it is David (pats David on the head while     )


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## Tony the tank (Dec 14, 2011)

Here is we're the conflicting information comes in...One person says "you can't believe everything thats written on the Internet" ... When the what they actually mean.."don't believe anything posted on the Internet unless I posted it"..Thus the confusion..

If anything an education teaches us is the ability to find information and apply it correctly...

For instance... The theory that sulcatas need a dry environment as youngsters to remain healthy.... Someone had to take the plunge and go against the norm..and actually test the theory of humidity being beneficial to young torts....That person took a gamble with the health of that Tort... And the gamble was correct...

I for one prefer facts to theory..... 

But also let's not confuse the analogy... With the known danger of sticking a metal object in a socket... To someone refusing to change there husbandry techniques because someone on the Internet tells them or advises them of what might happen..


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## dmmj (Dec 14, 2011)

wait I thought we were talking about light sockets?


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## Tony the tank (Dec 14, 2011)

dmmj said:


> wait I thought we were talking about light sockets?




We are ..I'm just saying


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## Tom (Dec 14, 2011)

Jacqui said:


> Sometimes those "dumb" things and not listening to others, also may lead to big advances in our knowledge. Was not so long ago, Johny did not listen to all them folks who told him the world was flat and if he went too far, he would fall off it.... Then there was the famous, "Geesh Johny I tried to fly and I fell. Man is just not suppose to fly." Did Johny listen? No, he was brave enough to try it for himself. Then to take what he learned and try again. Finally Johny was able to fly. Boy sure glad not all Johnys are "dumb" enough to just follow the beaten path and folks who say, "You need to learn from me and never try for yourself". Guys sometimes not listening to others and learning from your own mistakes is not bad, sometimes it a marvelous thing.



This is a good point Jacqui, but somehow I do not equate Orville, Wilbur and Christopher with our little Jonny. There is a difference between pioneering something new based on the facts that you do know to try to figure out the rest, and doing something that will have a known and certain bad outcome.


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## Tony the tank (Dec 14, 2011)

Tom said:


> Jacqui said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes those "dumb" things and not listening to others, also may lead to big advances in our knowledge. Was not so long ago, Johny did not listen to all them folks who told him the world was flat and if he went too far, he would fall off it.... Then there was the famous, "Geesh Johny I tried to fly and I fell. Man is just not suppose to fly." Did Johny listen? No, he was brave enough to try it for himself. Then to take what he learned and try again. Finally Johny was able to fly. Boy sure glad not all Johnys are "dumb" enough to just follow the beaten path and folks who say, "You need to learn from me and never try for yourself". Guys sometimes not listening to others and learning from your own mistakes is not bad, sometimes it a marvelous thing.
> ...




I believe they all had a Hypothesis..It later became a theory then fact..

If you have facts..the theory is tested..


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## Tom (Dec 14, 2011)

Tony the tank said:


> For instance... The theory that sulcatas need a dry environment as youngsters to remain healthy.... Someone had to take the plunge and go against the norm..and actually test the theory of humidity being beneficial to young torts....That person took a gamble with the health of that Tort... And the gamble was correct...



This is different than our example with Jonny. With Jonny, we all know what will eventually happen and we all know that it will not be good. We see it all the time. Well, SOME of us see it all the time.

In the case of sulcatas and dryness, I will speak only for myself here. This was not an event. I did not just one day plop a sulcata into a swampy environment and proclaim, "Hey, lets see what happens to this poor tortoise..." It was a process. A process that took many years of observation of many situations all over the world. Many people were consulted and questioned and many tortoises were observed. Weather patterns were studied and many prior personal failures were carefully evaluated. Rare cases of success were also carefully evaluated. I knew what was going to happen before I ever did it, because I had seen it done before. I did not invent the concept of humidity and hydration for sulcatas, I simply joined a forum and told people about it. I also proceeded carefully at first as I'm sure the people who discovered the world was not flat did.

I know that your first paragraph is a general statement, but let me address it on a personal level. I do not want people to believe or do only what I say and disregard what anyone else says. I want people to do what works and disregard what does NOT work. I want them to NOT do things that we all know are detrimental. Detrimental things like raising sulcata hatchlings on rabbit pellets, under a hot light, with no water bowl and a diet of lettuce.
I could really not care less who gets credit for it, and I have no "God" complex as I have been accused in the past. I DO have an unhealthy obsession with figuring out and eliminating pyramiding in captive tortoises and sharing what I learn with anyone who will listen.

Further Hector, I appreciate and value your well thought out response and insight. Thank you.


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## Jacqui (Dec 14, 2011)

Tom said:


> This is a good point Jacqui, but somehow I do not equate Orville, Wilbur and Christopher with our little Jonny. There is a difference between pioneering something new based on the facts that you do know to try to figure out the rest, and doing something that will have a known and certain bad outcome.



As almost always Tom, you and I disagree.


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## dmmj (Dec 14, 2011)

Let me just say, I am against kids (boys or girls) sticking butter knives in light sockets.


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## Tom (Dec 14, 2011)

dmmj said:


> Let me just say, I am against kids (boys or girls) sticking butter knives in light sockets.



... or electrical outlets.


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## Jacqui (Dec 14, 2011)

Tom said:


> This is different than our example with Jonny. With Jonny, we all know what will eventually happen and we all know that it will not be good.



Only those folks who jumped to the conclusion that Johny was going to stick that knife into an outlet which actually has electricity working in it. Those folks made an assumption, which because there was no power to that outlet were proven completely wrong. Nothing bad happened to Johny.


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## dmmj (Dec 14, 2011)

I guess something bad can happen if johnny thinks all electrical outlets are like that, until the day he finds one that actually has current running through it.


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## Tom (Dec 14, 2011)

Jacqui said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > This is different than our example with Jonny. With Jonny, we all know what will eventually happen and we all know that it will not be good.
> ...



As a debate technique, this works. In the real world, I think not. Tell me it would not concern you to find your child sticking metal objects into plug receptacles even if you knew the power was off. Tell me you think its an okay thing to do as long as someone says the power is off...


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## Tony the tank (Dec 14, 2011)

Tom said:


> Tony the tank said:
> 
> 
> > For instance... The theory that sulcatas need a dry environment as youngsters to remain healthy.... Someone had to take the plunge and go against the norm..and actually test the theory of humidity being beneficial to young torts....That person took a gamble with the health of that Tort... And the gamble was correct...
> ...




Tom..I know you have the best interest of the animal in mind... You are very passionate in your beliefs..and I commend that... Wish the world was full of people that were passionate in there beliefs as you.. Rather than just going with the norm..Can you imagine where we would be today... So when I see someone blazing there own path I wish them the best.... Hopefully they will share there insight..


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## Jacqui (Dec 14, 2011)

Tom said:


> As a debate technique, this works. In the real world, I think not. Tell me it would not concern you to find your child sticking metal objects into plug receptacles even if you knew the power was off. Tell me you think its an okay thing to do as long as someone says the power is off...



No, it would not concern me to see my child sticking a metal object into an electrical outlet.


Now once more Tom has made a leap in his logic, that is actually proving once more to not be factual. For first off my youngest is 21 years old. He may be sticking something into the outlet to see if there is a current using a tester, which has metal ends to stick into that outlet. So I would have absolutely no concerns to find my child sticking a metal object into that plug.


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## dmmj (Dec 14, 2011)

Considering the age of the photo does anyone else think johnny (if that is his real name) is dead?


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## Tom (Dec 14, 2011)

Jacqui said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > As a debate technique, this works. In the real world, I think not. Tell me it would not concern you to find your child sticking metal objects into plug receptacles even if you knew the power was off. Tell me you think its an okay thing to do as long as someone says the power is off...
> ...



YOU ARE KILLING ME!!! I mean in a good way. THIS is why you are so valuable and good for this forum.

By the way, I just want you to know that I AGREED with you 100% on another thread. So there, TAKE THAT!





dmmj said:


> Considering the age of the photo does anyone else think johnny (if that is his real name) is dead?



If the outlet didn't get him, he's probably died of old age by now.


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## jaizei (Dec 14, 2011)

Tom said:


> Me: Jonny, I think that's a bad idea. You shouldn't do that.
> Jonny: Why not?
> Me: Because its very dangerous and you could get hurt.
> Jonny: Well I've been doing it for along time and nothing bad has happened...
> ...



Jonny actually seems quite reasonable. If you like, I'll go and stick a metal object into the nearest live outlet, and won't get hurt. Probably because I know a little more about electricity than you. Not grounded = no shock  I would also suggest that you find that scientific proof before you act as though your opinion is fact.



Tom said:


> There is a difference between pioneering something new based on the facts that you do know to try to figure out the rest, and doing something that will have a known and certain bad outcome.



The problem in the other thread was that the outcome wasn't necessarily known nor bad. Instead of telling us what 'pathogens from other continents' we had to worry about, you insulted and tried to big league us. I don't care who you are or who you know. You told us that you "MIGHT have seen and experienced some things" that we haven't, without elaborating. Unfortunately, "because Tom said so" isn't good enough for me. I want actual facts so that I may make an informed decision. Silly, I know, but I like to think for myself.


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## wellington (Dec 14, 2011)

As frustrating as it gets Tom, don't forget there are some or a lot of us that have taken your advice and seen for ourselves the great results. We are listening, learning and trying to spread the word. You won't change everyones mind, it just isn't possible. Just keep learning, sharing and hoping that it all some day will change the lives of many if not all torts. I do feel you have the knowledge, proof, and passion. Not because you said so, but because of the results I have gotten following your way/results. There are always going to be some that think they know the way. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. As much as it bothers you that torts are being raised poorly, you can only keep spreading the word and showing your results. As for me, THANK YOU SO MUCH! I was raising Tatum according to the breeder/rescuer, etc., and he started to pyramid. I found your article, and asked you questions and now he is no longer pyramiding, except of course the small damage that was already done.


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## Baoh (Dec 14, 2011)

This is a considerable amount of passive-aggressive effort. If only as much effort was applied to providing verifiable objective evidence or answering direct and specific questions, we might then achieve greater progress.


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## Redstrike (Dec 14, 2011)

We should all read more books.


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## Zamric (Dec 14, 2011)

I really like Brandon Sanderson. As a Fantasy Writer he's pretty good!

..... or did you mean more Toroise Husbandry books?


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## Tony the tank (Dec 14, 2011)

I like Clive Cussler..

But to be honest..I like to wait for the movie..


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## Zamric (Dec 14, 2011)

Clive Cussler is also a teriffic Writer.... Dirk is one of my favorite charactors!


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## Tony the tank (Dec 14, 2011)

Zamric said:


> Clive Cussler is also a teriffic Writer.... Dirk is one of my favorite charactors!




I like all the characters, Dirk, Kurt and Juan ( Oregon files)

I'm reading his new book (Devils Gate) now...


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## lynnedit (Dec 14, 2011)

I am relatively new to this forum, and have learned a lot. I try to pass along what I have learned that works... and there is usually more than one way. I think my torts are thriving because of this forum. Of course you have to sort through stuff, and apply it to your geographical area, etc.
However, I can honestly say that I have never put a knife into an electric outlet, and I would NOT do it if someone here told me to. Nope. Absolutely not.


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## Zamric (Dec 14, 2011)

lynnedit, I belive that is one of the wisest things i've heard on this site! But in my defence, I shoved the screwdriver into the light socket by accident... I was just trying to stop a fall by driving the screwdiver into the cieling... and missed... my brother helped me to my feet a minit or so later!


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## nikki0601 (Dec 14, 2011)

I know exactly what your referring to Tom, lol, which makes this post hilarious, and little johnny will continue to tell u how unscientific your comments are as he contines to jam the damn knife in the socket


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## Tom (Dec 14, 2011)

J, first of all I like you and enjoy reading your posts. I did not intend to insult or offend you or anyone. Now I mean this genuinely, I really like your term "big league". Very clever and illustrative. However, I did not TRY to big league you, I DID big league you. 25 years of professional experience with ANYTHING is "big league". But please understand I did not explain my level of experience to "one up" anyone, I did it to try to illustrate that I have seen a lot of things during all that time. I could not insult you or your level of experience because I have no idea what it is. My explanation of where I've been was also an invitation for you to say what you have seen and done and for how long. I do believe here is an aspect of quality over quantity sometimes, so its not all about the number of years either.

Now I will elaborate on what I have seen in reference to the other thread. I have seen tortoises die from diseases they caught because they were housed with tortoises from other continents. Is that enough elaboration? In one case there were russians, redfoots and sulcatas all living together for a couple of years. Things were not quite right all the time, but they were alive. Within a six month period, all of them died. Necropsy revealed multiple infestations and infections not commonly seen in any of the species that had it, but commonly seen in the species they were housed with. Nobody wrote a scientific paper about it for me to quote. There really wasn't anything to write. These three species shared each other's diseases and died. Don't go getting all hung up on the details and trying to prove me wrong about this one case. I've seen it dozens of times and so has anyone else who has been around large collections of tortoises and reptiles.

My point is that the outcome of mixing species IS known and it IS bad, eventually. I don't say what I say because its just my opinion it IS based on fact. I have seen many tortoise die of foreign diseases from other species. For cryin' out loud, look at the mycoplasma infection in the CDT population. There was just a post last night where a guy admitted losing a radiated tortoise due to mixing species and he lamented that he had to learn "the hard way". If I can help it, I'd like to help some people avoid learning the hard way.

.. and just because you can stick a knife in one side of an outlet without getting shocked, does not make it smart, and does not mean it should be recommended or encouraged in others.



nikki0601 said:


> I know exactly what your referring to Tom, lol, which makes this post hilarious, and little johnny will continue to tell u how unscientific your comments are as he contines to jam the damn knife in the socket



No insult to anyone, but this made me laugh.  I have an image of Jacqui, with an angry face, ramming a butter knife into the wall socket in her house and grunting... now, I can't stop laughing...





Baoh said:


> This is a considerable amount of passive-aggressive effort. If only as much effort was applied to providing verifiable objective evidence or answering direct and specific questions, we might then achieve greater progress.



Baoh, I mean the following respectfully and in good humor since you can't hear my tone. You are as immovable as a mountain. I know donkeys less stubborn than you. 
But seriously, the next time I have a dead tortoise in my hands that was killed because someone mixed it with another species, I will mail it to you.


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## Baoh (Dec 14, 2011)

Tom, not to worry. To the discerning reader, this thread says much more about the author than it does the subject.


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## Tom (Dec 14, 2011)

Baoh said:


> Tom, not to worry. To the discerning reader, this thread says much more about the author than it does the subject.



Indeed it does...

Still, I want you to know that I respect your input and enjoy reading your posts too.


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## Baoh (Dec 14, 2011)

Tom said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> > Tom, not to worry. To the discerning reader, this thread says much more about the author than it does the subject.
> ...



I find your penchant for the _ad hominem_ to leave me ever so slightly less than fully convinced, but that has never been among my concerns.


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## Tom (Dec 14, 2011)

Well then I will work to get you ever so slightly more convinced. Please don't mistake my disagreeing with you as a sign of disrespect. In fact when someone that I respect very little disagrees with me, I seldom take the time to elaborate or have much of a discussion with them.

Others have said it before and I agree. Many times the best info and the most learning comes out of respectful disagreements between two people. In understanding where the two people who disagree are coming from, and trying to discern why they disagree, great knowledge and insight can sometimes be found. Personally, I enjoy listening to other knowledgeable tortoise people disagree and discuss it. There are great tidbits to be had sometimes.


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## Lulu (Dec 14, 2011)

I'm struggling with the analogy. What exactly are we talking about that equates to repeatedly sticking a butter knife in a light socket?


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## Tony the tank (Dec 14, 2011)

Lulu said:


> I'm struggling with the analogy. What exactly are we talking about that equates to repeatedly sticking a butter knife in a light socket?



I don't know but people are throwing around some mighty big words...... ad hominem<-- great word

What ever happened to the street vernacular..


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## Baoh (Dec 14, 2011)

Tom, there is no need for you to spend such energy. I am at a loss to determine why it would be important to do so, as attaining respect is not a goal I feel the need to satisfy in this context. To me, that is a non-issue.


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## jaizei (Dec 15, 2011)

Tom said:


> J, first of all I like you and enjoy reading your posts. I did not intend to insult or offend you or anyone. Now I mean this genuinely, I really like your term "big league". Very clever and illustrative. However, I did not TRY to big league you, I DID big league you. 25 years of professional experience with ANYTHING is "big league". But please understand I did not explain my level of experience to "one up" anyone, I did it to try to illustrate that I have seen a lot of things during all that time. I could not insult you or your level of experience because I have no idea what it is. My explanation of where I've been was also an invitation for you to say what you have seen and done and for how long. I do believe here is an aspect of quality over quantity sometimes, so its not all about the number of years either.
> 
> Now I will elaborate on what I have seen in reference to the other thread. I have seen tortoises die from diseases they caught because they were housed with tortoises from other continents. Is that enough elaboration? In one case there were russians, redfoots and sulcatas all living together for a couple of years. Things were not quite right all the time, but they were alive. Within a six month period, all of them died. Necropsy revealed multiple infestations and infections not commonly seen in any of the species that had it, but commonly seen in the species they were housed with. Nobody wrote a scientific paper about it for me to quote. There really wasn't anything to write. These three species shared each other's diseases and died. Don't go getting all hung up on the details and trying to prove me wrong about this one case. I've seen it dozens of times and so has anyone else who has been around large collections of tortoises and reptiles.
> 
> ...



Verifiable facts > Anecdotal evidence 

On the Internet, everyone is an expert and has some anecdote to prove their point. Online, one-upmanship is the name of the game, which is why I do not feel the need to quantify my experience in terms of years. Next thing you know, we'll have someone posting about how their g-g-grandfather was on the HMS Beagle.


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## Zamric (Dec 15, 2011)

... Kinda funny you should mention the HMS Beagle because my g-g-grandMOTHER.....


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## Tom (Dec 15, 2011)

Well J, it IS a verifiable fact that tortoises die from catching diseases of other species. I don't have a storage file on my computer with scientific studies to show this, but it happens every day. Call a tortoise vet and ask them. Call any importer/wholesaler. I know people who have groups of tortoises in permanent quarantine because of weird diseases they've picked up that are normally found in other species. How do you want me to show you verifiable fact? There is no doctoral candidate that has done a thesis on disease spread between different species of captive tortoises, that I know of. For one thing, its too obscure a topic with too many uncontrollable variables, and for another its pretty obvious. What would be the benefit of proving it in the grand scheme of the world? Who would benefit financially from this scientific data, and therefore wish to sponsor the longterm study? The point is that like most things with tortoises and other reptiles, there is not some huge financial benefit for funding research. We are on our own. I've illustrated this point before with the pyramiding thing. Which company will get a financial benefit when we all figure out and eliminate pyramiding? None. Likewise, which company will benefit from laboratory proof that a tortoise from one continent infected a tortoise from another continent with some pathogen? It is so obvious and well known that there is just no need to "study" it.


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## Jacqui (Dec 15, 2011)

Tom said:


> .
> No insult to anyone, but this made me laugh.  I have an image of Jacqui, with an angry face, ramming a butter knife into the wall socket in her house and grunting... now, I can't stop laughing...



. Sorry to disillusion you, but electricity and outlets have never been of interest to me. Nor has ramming anything into holes been one.  Why would I have an angry face? I have been chuckling myself over this thread and the responses to it. Perhaps in some twisted way... ummm may be I should not go with the psychology thoughts here, we seem to have a bad enough time trying to stay with Johny who you created then middle of the thread changed how he spells his name.


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## Tom (Dec 15, 2011)

Oh, I was just being silly. It struck me funny.


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## Redstrike (Dec 15, 2011)

jaizei said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > J, first of all I like you and enjoy reading your posts. I did not intend to insult or offend you or anyone. Now I mean this genuinely, I really like your term "big league". Very clever and illustrative. However, I did not TRY to big league you, I DID big league you. 25 years of professional experience with ANYTHING is "big league". But please understand I did not explain my level of experience to "one up" anyone, I did it to try to illustrate that I have seen a lot of things during all that time. I could not insult you or your level of experience because I have no idea what it is. My explanation of where I've been was also an invitation for you to say what you have seen and done and for how long. I do believe here is an aspect of quality over quantity sometimes, so its not all about the number of years either.
> ...



Jaizei, I can understand your position with verifiable facts > Anecdotal evidence, but there are underlying (and verifiable) facts in support of Tom's stance on the deleterious results seen from multi-species housing. 

I'm going to use wild ungulates in North America as an example. I'm from Maine, and before the colonial times (perhaps during, my history is terrible) we had woodland caribou, moose, and wolves. There were few if any white-tailed deer in our forests, perhaps tiny populations in the southern portion of the state. Once we starting logging and extirpated wolves, white-tailed deer shifted their range into all of ME, carrying with it a very common parasite: Brain worm. Brain worm lives between the brain membrane and skull cavity as well as most of the CNS in white-tailed deer, remaining relatively harmless to the host (sign of a good parasite). Eventually, eggs are cast into deer feces, where snails consume them and act as a secondary host. Deer eat the snails, perpetuating the cycle. Now, once white-tailed deer ranges started over lapping with woodland caribou, their populations crashed. Moose also weren't fairing as well, but seemed to manage okay (and still do in much of the state). The fact is, brain worm did not evolve with Moose or woodland caribou and rather than maintaing a stasis with them, they bore into the brain and CNS tissues, killing the host. Woodland caribou are now extirpated (locally extinct throughout Maine) and moose with brain worm are put down every year.

I don't want to come across the wrong way here, or sound too aggressive, but if you want facts, this is an axiom in all biology: parasites and diseases from different species can be devastatingly lethal when introduced to a novel host. *This is a fact*
Housing multiple species together is not a good idea.


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## Baoh (Dec 15, 2011)

Tom said:


> Well J, it IS a verifiable fact that tortoises die from catching diseases of other species. I don't have a storage file on my computer with scientific studies to show this, but it happens every day. Call a tortoise vet and ask them. Call any importer/wholesaler. I know people who have groups of tortoises in permanent quarantine because of weird diseases they've picked up that are normally found in other species. How do you want me to show you verifiable fact? There is no doctoral candidate that has done a thesis on disease spread between different species of captive tortoises, that I know of. For one thing, its too obscure a topic with too many uncontrollable variables, and for another its pretty obvious. What would be the benefit of proving it in the grand scheme of the world? Who would benefit financially from this scientific data, and therefore wish to sponsor the longterm study? The point is that like most things with tortoises and other reptiles, there is not some huge financial benefit for funding research. We are on our own. I've illustrated this point before with the pyramiding thing. Which company will get a financial benefit when we all figure out and eliminate pyramiding? None. Likewise, which company will benefit from laboratory proof that a tortoise from one continent infected a tortoise from another continent with some pathogen? It is so obvious and well known that there is just no need to "study" it.



Why use so many words to simply say you have no verifiable objective data?

If there are too many uncontrollable variables, then how are you controlling for them when jumping to conclusions and assigning a root cause that you assert that professionals could not in a rigorously designed study? You cannot have it both ways. Either this cannot be controlled well enough to study and, therefore, conclude, or it can.

Tortoises also may potentially die from catching diseases from the same species. The sky is falling. Let us never let them ever meet their own kind because of an unquantified risk. You can never be too safe, right? We weigh the risks and make our choices. Proselytizing based on opinion circles is not my desire. Perhaps because you want so badly to be seen as some sort of authority on the matter, it is important to you. Internet "cred" does not happen to fall within my value system.

I have captive born Aldabras, Gpps, Sulcatas, Burmese Blacks, Burmese Browns, and Western Hermann's, among others. Which of these is carrying which specific high-mortality pathogens that are threats to which of these other species that are not threats to their own species such that there is especially grave concern that inter-specific contact is much more likely to be lethal than intra-specific contact? Name which of my tortoises are presenting high quantifiable risk to which of my other tortoises by transimitting which organisms since you are confident enough to tell me and others there is a serious risk as if fact when no such fact has been presented in this specific context. 

How come we do not worry to this extent regarding most aquatic turtles? Maybe the risk is not the epidemiological nightmare some make it out to be. Natural selection is a pretty nifty mechanism and tortoises have been around for a long time with lots of contact with others as well as a great many other organisms. If you had studied fibropapillomatosis, you would know that it often does not matter regarding species segregation. The green, ridley, loggerhead, and leatherback can all infect each other as well as members of their own species. The physiology is similar enough for hosting. If you wish to this is not the case in tortoises, please cite the specific physiological basis and mechanism.

Then there are all of the non-chelonian species that our tortoises come into contact with that people omit from their minds when talking about mixing species and preventing contact. 

If you reply, please have the wherewithal to avoid the commonly employed fallacies of ignoring the middle, strawman, against the man, appeal to authority, and appeal to popularity.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 15, 2011)

I don't have science or articles to back me up, but I still believe in not mixing species. My evidence is all anecdotal. I've been operating a turtle/tortoise rescue here in Central California for many years and have taken in sick tortoises people didn't want to have to spend money on. I've heard quite a few times about how they had a desert tortoise (or a sulcata or fill in the blank) and decided to get another tortoise to keep it company, so they got a different kind of tortoise. Now one or the other tortoise is sick, will you take it? I have to put 2 and 2 together and come up with the fact that one of these tortoises got sick from being with the other one. It was usually a sulcata/desert tortoise mix.


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## Jacqui (Dec 15, 2011)

Rather then telling you all we need to stick to butter knives and electrical outlets, I am moving this entire thread. If Tom does not like it, he can say so and I will take out the original posts and move them back. However I think this discussion has gotten into some interesting, if a bit hard at time for some folks to follow, and should continue.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 15, 2011)

Thank you, Jacqui. I was just wondering whether a mod needed to step in and keep everyone on target.


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## Baoh (Dec 15, 2011)

Redstrike said:


> jaizei said:
> 
> 
> > Tom said:
> ...



If you would show me direct connection between a specific instance of captive bred tortoises of different species contacting each other that resulted in a specific pathogen wiping large populations of them out, I would love to read it. I tried the peer-reviewed sources, but I am sure you and I both are surprised that that well came up dry. To personify them, iridoviruses do not mind too much whether the transmission is within a species or across two (or three, or four, or genera, or family, or order, or class...). ChHV, to personify again, does not care if transmission is between two marginata, two graeca, or one of each.

Otherwise, the context is as different as comparing my situation to H5N1 and humans. I guess we should hermetically seal ourselves away from all avians, too, just in case. After all, they are not of our species. 



emysemys said:


> I don't have science or articles to back me up, but I still believe in not mixing species. My evidence is all anecdotal. I've been operating a turtle/tortoise rescue here in Central California for many years and have taken in sick tortoises people didn't want to have to spend money on. I've heard quite a few times about how they had a desert tortoise (or a sulcata or fill in the blank) and decided to get another tortoise to keep it company, so they got a different kind of tortoise. Now one or the other tortoise is sick, will you take it? I have to put 2 and 2 together and come up with the fact that one of these tortoises got sick from being with the other one. It was usually a sulcata/desert tortoise mix.



I see nothing wrong with this. I would not mix sulcatas with DTs, either, personally.


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## Redstrike (Dec 15, 2011)

Baoh said:


> If you would show me direct connection between a specific instance of captive bred tortoises of different species contacting each other that resulted in a specific pathogen wiping large populations of them out, I would love to read it. I tried the peer-reviewed sources, but I am sure you and I both are surprised that that well came up dry. To personify them, iridoviruses do not mind too much whether the transmission is within a species or across two (or three, or four, or genera, or family, or order, or class...). ChHV, to personify again, does not care if transmission is between two marginata, two graeca, or one of each.
> 
> Otherwise, the context is as different as comparing my situation to H5N1 and humans. I guess we should hermetically seal ourselves away from all avians, too, just in case. After all, they are not of our species.



Yea, there aren't many studies on captive animals...nothing concrete on captive tortoises, but that doesn't hide the fact that you and I have both outlined above: pathogens are capable of jumping from species and generas and sometimes further up (or down, depending how you look at it) the phylogenetic line.

I wouldn't jump the gun here and seal myself off from other phyla in some over-arching fear of pathogen transmission - that wasn't the point I was trying to address. My point was, two closely related families or genera may pass novel parasites/viruses to one another in a captive setting. Using the ungulates as an example we know of in the wild is, I find, reasonable. There are countless other examples, but I'm going to have to leave you with this...I just can't find the time to keep working on this debate.

Ending point: housing separate species together is probably not a good idea. Hosts coevolved with pathogens and parasites, introducing them to novel hosts could result in no effect (pathogen/parasite doesn't recognize the host) or can be lethal (pathogen/parasite recognizes host, host cannot cope with novel invader).


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## Tony the tank (Dec 15, 2011)

dmmj said:


> Considering the age of the photo does anyone else think johnny (if that is his real name) is dead?



If the outlet didn't get him, he's probably died of old age by now.
[/quote]


From what I understand.John as he prefered to be called...Died of natural causes after living a well to do life off the patent he filed on the GFI outlet


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## Yvonne G (Dec 15, 2011)

LOL!!!!!

I was searching the 'net to see if I could find where it said that "they" thought the mycoplasma agassizii had been introduced to desert tortoises through release of exotic tortoises into the desert and I came up with this interview. Its a pretty good read, and it says the mycoplasma probably did NOT come from the release of exotic tortoises. It really has nothing to do with the debate here, but I thought it was good reading to share.

http://www.tortoise.org/archives/brown1.html


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## Baoh (Dec 15, 2011)

Redstrike said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> > If you would show me direct connection between a specific instance of captive bred tortoises of different species contacting each other that resulted in a specific pathogen wiping large populations of them out, I would love to read it. I tried the peer-reviewed sources, but I am sure you and I both are surprised that that well came up dry. To personify them, iridoviruses do not mind too much whether the transmission is within a species or across two (or three, or four, or genera, or family, or order, or class...). ChHV, to personify again, does not care if transmission is between two marginata, two graeca, or one of each.
> ...



I have run across an interesting study regarding colonization versus infection of DTs by Mycoplasma agassizii, actually. I was interested to see the natural immunity aspects and there are issues of false positives due to ELISA potentially registering a positive result in animals that have either acquired or natural immunity. To the latter point, the CB animals did not have the organism present, and so cannot transmit what they do not possess. If I have CB X that is not carrying a pathogen and it meets CB Y that is not carrying a pathogen, there is nothing for them to infect each other with. This is one dimension of why I am not especially alarmed by the concept as long as certain degrees of care are taken. Even within a species, for example, I would not necessarily even introduce multiple WC animals of the same species to each other due to compounding parasite loads in close quarters. To me, the matter of species mixing is not an all-or-nothing situation. I neither promote nor discourage it and see how it can be done with greater and lesser degrees of risk just as I see ways of keeping monospecific groups that could pose greater and lesser degrees of risk.



emysemys said:


> LOL!!!!!
> 
> I was searching the 'net to see if I could find where it said that "they" thought the mycoplasma agassizii had been introduced to desert tortoises through release of exotic tortoises into the desert and I came up with this interview. Its a pretty good read, and it says the mycoplasma probably did NOT come from the release of exotic tortoises. It really has nothing to do with the debate here, but I thought it was good reading to share.
> 
> http://www.tortoise.org/archives/brown1.html





Indeed. The agassizii species likely is an endemic colonial in certain contexts and then can progress to become pathogenic if the situation is fit for it. It also appears that some individuals may overcome active infection.

The paper I attached is an interesting read.


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## Maggie Cummings (Dec 15, 2011)

For most of my life that I can remember my sister has operated a turtle and tortoise rescue. She finally got me involved after I had an on the job injury. She taught me a lot. One of the things she taught me was to never mix species. But of course, I am who I am and after a while I ran out of room so I mixed CDT and the aforementioned Sulcata. Things were fine for a long time but then my DT's started to get sick, some were very sick and we thought they were going to die. I took them to the Vet and he ran the tests that they run and he told me that the DT's had a pathogen that he named and I can't remember and wouldn't know how to spell. He guesstimated from the way the tests looked that the DT's got a disease from the Sulcata. I don't remember all the details anymore so don't ask me. But that was the one and only example I have from mixing species, because I haven't ever mixed species since then. That experience taught me to listen to those who came before me. Listen to those who are more experienced and sometimes I actually do...


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## Baoh (Dec 15, 2011)

I am sorry your animals suffered from a negative experience as they did.

I imagine quite a few of us have cared for a significant variety of species. In terms of tortoises, I have kept Western Hermann's, Macedonian/Greek (as in literally from there) Hermann's, Marginated, Russian, Ibera Greek, Golden Greek, "Black" Greek, Egyptian, Redfoot, Yellowfoot, Gpp, Gpb, Sulcata, Burmese Brown, Burmese Black, Aldabra, and had some Gopherus on my land when I lived in Florida. Only the Egyptians and the Gophers were prevented from having direct contact with other tortoise species, with the others allowed contact on an individually assessed basis of size, history, health, and temperament. Those are just the tortoises. I have had the good fortune of breeding, since before a teenager through today, hundreds from among most of the the Testudo groups I kept over the ears until I decided to sell off almost all of them and focus on other things. Only this year have I decided to try my hand at breeding a couple of other types. 

I have heard of and seen a number of bad results from mixing. I have seen with my own eyes many more neutral results in private collections, zoos, and in the wild. I have actually seen more negative situations (diseases, bullying, breeding stresses, violence, and death) arise when some types have been kept with their own kind (to be clear, I am not saying keeping mixed over separate provides a benefit, either). If you did not go with what has worked for you, it would seem odd to me. So, too, would it seem odd to me to not go with what has worked for me over decades and is continuing to work for me as of this morning.


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## dmmj (Dec 15, 2011)

Personally I would not want to take the risk.


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## Lulu (Dec 15, 2011)

So the butter knife in the outlet is mixing species? Why didn't you just say so, Tom? Your OP read differently than that to me.

I have little to add, except that I noticed that the San Diego Zoo mixes species, especially torts with other herps. As an example, I noticed that the marginated tortoises are housed with legless lizards. I happen to like legless lizards, but it was a little weird to see them all laying in a big herp pile with the torts in the sun.


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## lynnedit (Dec 15, 2011)

Lulu said:


> So the butter knife in the outlet is mixing species? Why didn't you just say so, Tom? Your OP read differently than that to me.
> 
> I have little to add, except that I noticed that the San Diego Zoo mixes species, especially torts with other herps. As an example, I noticed that the marginated tortoises are housed with legless lizards. I happen to like legless lizards, but it was a little weird to see them all laying in a big herp pile with the torts in the sun.



What a relief to have the core of this thread explained , although it has been quite interesting!
Being a novice, I would probably not mix species because I, too, would not take the chance. Also because many have different environmental needs. 
I don't have anything else to contribute either, except I don't see the evolutionary advantage of being legless, unless they have fins too, hmmm...


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## Tom (Dec 15, 2011)

Baoh said:


> Why use so many words to simply say you have no verifiable objective data?
> 
> If there are too many uncontrollable variables, then how are you controlling for them when jumping to conclusions and assigning a root cause that you assert that professionals could not in a rigorously designed study? You cannot have it both ways. Either this cannot be controlled well enough to study and, therefore, conclude, or it can.
> 
> ...



Your level of understanding of debate techniques is of no interest to me and your subtle, cleverly worded slights have not gone unnoticed. I have tried to be mature and civil with you, but you continue try and out-word me. Please put the debate handbook down, and stop trying to sound like you are more intelligent than everyone else.

Simply stated, because I have no scientific studies demonstrating my point, does not mean it is not correct. Frankly, I don't think that such studies exist, but if they did, and if I could find them, I would certainly present them to you. Like wise, I can produce no studies proving the existence of air, but I have no problem asserting to anyone that air exists. Similarly, I have seen many tortoise die due to mixing species. Because studies do not exist, or I cannot find them, does not make this untrue. Why do you think it is okay to dismiss what I have told you that I have personally seem. That is analogous to calling me a liar. Do you think that I have not seen these things and that I am lying? For what purpose? What do I gain from telling people not to do something that I have personally witness killing tortoises, if it is not true? Do I have an underhanded plan to segregate the tortoises of the world for my own amusement? If you want studies and research papers then YOU spend your time hunting for them. I have better things to do and searching around for info to prove you wrong is not high on my list. I don't need scientist to tell me what I already know is true because I have personally experienced it.

Rather than me repeat again that I do not know of any studies, how about we try this another way? For me to be wrong about this, it means that you must be right. In your eyes, my opinion is not valid with out indisputable scientific proof. Where is your scientific proof that tortoises from different continents CANNOT exchange diseases and become sick or die from them. If you continue to dismiss my assertions as uneducated drivel by an internet ego-maniac, then you must be sitting on loads of studies, proving me wrong. Lets see it.

Further, there is no need to go to ridiculous extremes about the "sky is falling". We are all well aware of disease transmission and which tortoises can get what and from where. What you are failing to understand, because it has not happened to you, YET, is that mixing species tremendously increases the risk of individual tortoises catching a disease or pathogen that it is not equipped to handle. I think the ungulate example illustrates this perfectly well. And I do worry about mixing aquatic species, for your information. I don't do it, and I recommend against it. I can't stop you from playing russian roulette with your own animals, but I can continue to help other people avoid the mistake that you are making.


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## Tom (Dec 15, 2011)

HK, the last guy that tried this failed. You will too.


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## jaizei (Dec 15, 2011)

Tom said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> > Why use so many words to simply say you have no verifiable objective data?
> ...


My original question was concerning the 'pathogens' present in cb hatchlings. If they are present, then where do they come from? Are they innate to one species or another? 


http://www.woodrow.org/teachers/ci/faraday/lect2.html
You're welcome.


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## Tom (Dec 15, 2011)

Okay, now go find us the studies that prove or disprove that mixing species is a bad idea, since you have a knack for research.


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## Lulu (Dec 15, 2011)

Tom, no one is throwing out fancy debate moves to try to appear smarter than anyone else, they're merely asking for evidence to support your assertions. Without evidence, they're nothing more than opinions. You can make the case that they're opinions based on whatever years of husbandry or experience you have, but then you do open the door to requests to back that up as well.

Baoh is not making a positive assertion. You are. He is under no obligation to prove a negative. You are making an assertion. You should be able to back that up with evidence, or it is an opinion and should be qualified as such.

I have been giving you the benefit of the doubt about your first post and that the message you meant to convey was not as insulting to the intelligence and experience of the great folks in this group as it initially came across, but I'm beginning to wonder based on some of the posts that followed. For the record, I have specifically considered and discarded the advice of some on here (even yours), and specifically considered and adopted the advice of others (even Jacqui's ).

Edit: BTW, the only one I saw say the sky is falling is you... or what else was that knife in outlet analogy supposed to mean?


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## BrinnANDTorts (Dec 15, 2011)

Here I thought this was just a funny joke about a stubborn little boy.. I should of known better lol 

More on the point is why would someone ever do something that has been proven to kill and make tortoises sick...maybe not by "official'" scientists but by people...real tortoise people. Why would those people continue to mix species , which is incredible unnatural, when they have been told by multiple and multiple tortoise lovers that it could possible kill the tortoises ? 
I would think that people would just separate the tortoises because no one would want even the possibility of their tortoises dying... it may not be simple to just separate them when they keep many different kinds , it is a FACT that mixing species puts your tortoises more at risk of sickness and death, this fact can be disclaimed or just plain ignored so that people don't have to separate their different tortoise species and continue to keep tons of different species 
In the end in though I still miss the fact of why with many, many people saying that its bad and can cause sickness and death because it has happened to them in real life the mixing would continue? It is my personal opinion that the tortoises, all animals really that someone keeps, well being should be put first, above all other things and if that can not be done then dont have the animals or get the means to put their health first and foremost otherwise its not fair to the animals. I know full well though that not everyone shares this belief and keeps as many animals as they want and how they want despite the animals needs and health


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## Redstrike (Dec 15, 2011)

Pathogens and parasites jump around (phylogenetically), tortoises aren't an exception. See attached papers.


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## jaizei (Dec 15, 2011)

Tom said:


> Okay, now go find us the studies that prove or disprove that mixing species is a bad idea, since you have a knack for research.



I have no interest in proving or disproving anything, my interest is in knowledge and learning. Boah, Redstrike and others, have posted quite a bit of interesting information. You seem to have a knack for glossing over the actual 'meat' of the posts and focusing on the trivial 'slights.'


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## Yvonne G (Dec 15, 2011)

Whatever happened to our idea here on the forum that everyone, and that means EVERYONE, is allowed to have their own opinion. Boah has an opinion, AK (don't know his name ) has an opinion, I have many opinions. We, NONE of us, have to prove our opinions. So if Tom believes that it is bad to mix species, he is allowed to have that opinion and he doesn't have to offer proof. That's what we've always stressed here on the forum. "Please feel free to state your opinion." What's so wrong with saying, "Ok, Tom, I see that you really believe that it is bad to mix species. I accept that that is your opinion. Personally, I don't agree with it and my opinion is that it is perfectly fine to mix species." End of story. Why this big debate?


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## Jacqui (Dec 15, 2011)

My personal thought would be the way this "difference of opinion" was taken out of the thread it started in and then posed the way it was in the opening post of this thread.... but that it just my own thought as to why this debate happened the way it did.


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## jaizei (Dec 15, 2011)

emysemys said:


> Whatever happened to our idea here on the forum that everyone, and that means EVERYONE, is allowed to have their own opinion. Boah has an opinion, AK (don't know his name ) has an opinion, I have many opinions. We, NONE of us, have to prove our opinions. So if Tom believes that it is bad to mix species, he is allowed to have that opinion and he doesn't have to offer proof. That's what we've always stressed here on the forum. "Please feel free to state your opinion." What's so wrong with saying, "Ok, Tom, I see that you really believe that it is bad to mix species. I accept that that is your opinion. Personally, I don't agree with it and my opinion is that it is perfectly fine to mix species." End of story. Why this big debate?



Tom has asserted that it isn't merely his opinion but based on facts. Facts require proof. 

I have no problem accepting Tom's opinion as Tom's opinion. I have a problem accepting Tom's opinion as fact without proof, even though it seems that there are many here that are more than willing to do so.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 15, 2011)

So you feel that by showing us little Johnny (I'm too lazy to go back and spell it right) and the outlet, Tom was saying, "My way or the highway?" In that case, Tom, you have invited the dispute.


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## Tony the tank (Dec 15, 2011)

Jacqui said:


> My personal thought would be the way this "difference of opinion" was taken out of the thread it started in and then posed the way it was in the opening post of this thread.... but that it just my own thought as to why this debate happened the way it did.



My thoughts exactly Jacqui...It did seem a little condescending....But let me add a disclaimer "This is just my opinion"


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## Lulu (Dec 15, 2011)

Because the issue was initially presented as "a failure to follow my (Tom's) advice is akin to sticking a knife repeatedly into an electrical outlet," without even a reference to a specific issue on which the advice was provided. The specific opinion that species should not be mixed seems to be a perfectly reasonable opinion, but I don't feel that the failure to follow Tom's advice is, in general, akin to shoving a knife in an electrical outlet, nor do I feel that level of alarm over those that do mix species. In short, I don't think it's a knife in an electrical outlet kind of issue.


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## Redstrike (Dec 15, 2011)

Lulu said:


> Because the issue was initially presented as "a failure to follow my (Tom's) advice is akin to sticking a knife repeatedly into an electrical outlet," without even a reference to a specific issue on which the advice was provided. The specific opinion that species should not be mixed seems to be a perfectly reasonable opinion, but I don't feel that the failure to follow Tom's advice is, in general, akin to shoving a knife in an electrical outlet, nor do I feel that level of alarm over those that do mix species. In short, I don't think it's a knife in an electrical outlet kind of issue.



I like this, astute and concise.

I just wanted to present some supporting evidence backing Tom's, and many others opinions (including myself), on why housing various species together may not be a good idea. I fully endorse the forum's open-minded stance on sharing all opinions and hope my responses were not oppressive to any sides of this conundrum.


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## dmmj (Dec 15, 2011)

In my opinion fire is hot.


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## Redstrike (Dec 15, 2011)

dmmj said:


> In my opinion fire is hot.



Haha, nicely played!


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## lynnedit (Dec 15, 2011)

dmmj said:


> In my opinion fire is hot.



Now THAT I understand. 
And the FACT that pretty much everything on this forum is an OPINION.


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## nikki0601 (Dec 15, 2011)

What about aquatic turtles, I never really thought about it especially just mixing sliders together, different subspecies, but when I got my Peninsula Cooter she was housed with red ear sliders, I got one of the sliders she was housed with too, I have always kept them together but would never put anything else in with them, not even the same species or ever put anything else in with my yellow bellies, I just keep the ones together that were hatched together and have always been together.. When it comes to my water turtles they stay with the turtles they lived with prior to me getting them


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## Tom (Dec 15, 2011)

Lulu said:


> Tom, no one is throwing out fancy debate moves to try to appear smarter than anyone else, they're merely asking for evidence to support your assertions. Without evidence, they're nothing more than opinions. You can make the case that they're opinions based on whatever years of husbandry or experience you have, but then you do open the door to requests to back that up as well.
> 
> Baoh is not making a positive assertion. You are. He is under no obligation to prove a negative. You are making an assertion. You should be able to back that up with evidence, or it is an opinion and should be qualified as such.
> 
> ...




You are welcome to your opinion of Baoh's tactics. I do not share it.
He IS making an assertion and it is the opposite of my assertion. If I must prove mine in order for it to be credible why should the opposing side not prove theirs?
What evidence is there? What I am to show? I and others have seen tortoises die from mixing species. What shall I post as proof? Pics of dead tortoises?
I did not say the sky is falling. I said mixing species is a bad idea and it can lead to the death of one's tortoises and it can.





Jacqui said:


> My personal thought would be the way this "difference of opinion" was taken out of the thread it started in and then posed the way it was in the opening post of this thread.... but that it just my own thought as to why this debate happened the way it did.



For the record: This thread is, and was, just what the title stated. It was meant in a general sense. It is a concept that I experience regularly and it frustrates me. I did not bring the debate about the other thread here, BUT I don't mind that it made it here. I did not want it cluttering the other person's thread, and I rather enjoy discussing tortoise issues with tortoise people. I'm about to start a "mixing species" poll and continue the discussion outside of this thread.

For those who want proof that mixing species is a bad idea: We all agree that there are no studies done on this (I think we agree), so what can I post as proof? My word is not carrying any weight with some people, other people's word in agreement with me is carrying no weight, I don't have or know where to find studies on this, I am not going to do another long term experiment on this to prove my point, so what is it that I can show to lend my assertion some credibility?


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## Zamric (Dec 15, 2011)

I dont think you need a full intence, on going experiment...Look for the worst offenders of mixing differant species and check the general health of the population....this would be any large chain petstore hold facilities... now we just need to get INTO these facilities.... any ideas?


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## Lulu (Dec 15, 2011)

You could just say that, in your opinion and experience, mixing species is not a good idea, and not liken it to sticking a knife in an outlet with nothing to back it up except your opinion and experience. People could then be free to adopt or discard your opinion based on your words or their respect for your background or experience.

Dismissing people who choose a different way than you as children who don't know better than to stick knives in outlets is pretty darned insulting, and doing so does not add in any way to the credibility or reliability of what you are saying. In essence your argument boils down to "trust me or you're stupid." Are you not able to see that?


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## Tom (Dec 15, 2011)

Lulu said:


> You could just say that, in your opinion and experience, mixing species is not a good idea, and not liken it to sticking a knife in an outlet with nothing to back it up except your opinion and experience. People could then be free to adopt or discard your opinion based on your words or their respect for your background or experience.
> 
> Dismissing people who choose a different way than you as children who don't know better than to stick knives in outlets is pretty darned insulting, and doing so does not add in any way to the credibility or reliability of what you are saying. In essence your argument boils down to "trust me or you're stupid." Are you not able to see that?



Two points: This post was not about mixing species. Its about people ignoring the obvious. This has happened many times and most of the time it has nothing to do with tortoises. This does not mean that mixing species and ignoring people who say that they have seen fatalities as a result, does not fall into this category in my mind, but still the OP was a general statement. I was not pointing a finger at anyone in particular and insinuating "trust me or you are stupid".

Second point: I have no problem with people doing things differently than me. In fact when they get good results, I promote their methods and show them to others as alternatives to my way of doing things. Doing something that could very well kill tortoises and passing it off as okay, is not just "choosing a different way", it is potentially harmful. This is the only reason that I make such a big deal about doing it. If I was doing something that you knew first hand was bad for tortoises, would you not point it out? Then we could discuss why we see this issue differently. I would not insult you or try to belittle you or try to dazzle the audience with fancy terms. I would not ask you to produce documents that don't exist and insinuate that you are a liar, or somehow incompetent because you cannot produce said documents. If you Renee, said to me, "Tom, I have seen such and such with my own eyes." I would believe you. If others chimed in and supported your statements I would believe them too. I would also consider your motive. "What does Renee gain from trying to convince me of this?" This is not about two different, but harmless styles of keeping tortoises, this is about discouraging others from engaging in potentially harmful housing practices.


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## ascott (Dec 16, 2011)

> I'm going to use wild ungulates in North America as an example. I'm from Maine, and before the colonial times (perhaps during, my history is terrible) we had woodland caribou, moose, and wolves. There were few if any white-tailed deer in our forests, perhaps tiny populations in the southern portion of the state. Once we starting logging and extirpated wolves, white-tailed deer shifted their range into all of ME, carrying with it a very common parasite: Brain worm. Brain worm lives between the brain membrane and skull cavity as well as most of the CNS in white-tailed deer, remaining relatively harmless to the host (sign of a good parasite). Eventually, eggs are cast into deer feces, where snails consume them and act as a secondary host. Deer eat the snails, perpetuating the cycle. Now, once white-tailed deer ranges started over lapping with woodland caribou, their populations crashed. Moose also weren't fairing as well, but seemed to manage okay (and still do in much of the state). The fact is, brain worm did not evolve with Moose or woodland caribou and rather than maintaing a stasis with them, they bore into the brain and CNS tissues, killing the host. Woodland caribou are now extirpated (locally extinct throughout Maine) and moose with brain worm are put down every year.
> 
> I don't want to come across the wrong way here, or sound too aggressive, but if you want facts, this is an axiom in all biology: parasites and diseases from different species can be devastatingly lethal when introduced to a novel host. This is a fact
> Housing multiple species together is not a good idea.



What a beautiful example of what this thread has gone to....thank you....something valuable without it being an attack or bite at the ankle of another forum member....refreshing.

Hey Tom, you're alright with me man  

There will always be people that are ticked about something in their life and when you make yourself available they will seek you out with their red paint and paint brush ....wait for you to turn your back and start painting in circles.....we all know what we know by our personal experience and common sense... (no matter 1 year to 30 years tortoise/reptile experience, actually in the reality of the lifespan of a tortoise these numbers are but a drop in the bucket of relativity, oh wait....IMHO that is, as always--Oh and I am not providing proof of **** here, so don't bother)

I do have to say that I am amused by what small thing will **** the village off though....very amused....have a great night all


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## jaizei (Dec 16, 2011)

Tom said:


> Lulu said:
> 
> 
> > You could just say that, in your opinion and experience, mixing species is not a good idea, and not liken it to sticking a knife in an outlet with nothing to back it up except your opinion and experience. People could then be free to adopt or discard your opinion based on your words or their respect for your background or experience.
> ...



This post was nothing more than a very thinly attack on any/everyone who doesn't equate your opinion with fact. 'Mixing species' is just the latest example of this. Your posts have all been condescending, insulting and egotistical. Rather than dazzle the audience with fancy terms, you try to dazzle with your 'experience.' Why don't you start name dropping, have you spoken with Fife lately? Whats his your opinion?

The *only* person responsible for my tortoises is me. Therefore, I acquire as much information as possible and then make an informed decision. "Because Tom said so" doesn't cut it. Don't you often post about how you used to listen to the 'experts' and they said to keep sulcatas & leopards dry? How did that work out for you? They had the experience. There are quite a few care sheets still floating around that say that these are 'desert' tortoises that are highly susceptible to RI from higher humidity. Or shell rot from being kept on wet substrate. These were backed up with anecdotal evidence from the authors. What do they gain from this? Do they just want all the pet tortoises in the world to be dry? Keeping a tortoise 'wet' is potentially dangerous, especially if someone was careless. Just like being careless with mixing species is dangerous. Mixing cb tortoises isn't the same as mixing wc tortoises. Just like keeping a tortoise warm and wet isn't the same as keeping a tortoise cool and damp.



HK94_Mp5_A3 said:


> This is fun. I can go all day and night shooting holes in your experience using your own posts. Heck, anyone can.
> 
> Take care.



It's not fair to use his words against him.


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## Jacqui (Dec 16, 2011)

Guys there is such a mixture going on here, but let's try to keep the personal attacks out of it and work more on debating your opinions on the topic of this thread. It has been a very interesting thread, let's get back to that, please.


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## Tony the tank (Dec 16, 2011)

This thread reminds me of what my law professor said once..

If you have the law, you pound the law,i If you have facts you pound the facts, If you have nothing..pound your chest and hope no one notices


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## chairman (Dec 16, 2011)

I saw Tom's original post as a reductio ad absurdum. It seems that Tom is frustrated when he sees people engaging in activities that he views as inherently harmful. I assumed he was referencing the keeping multiple species together thing too, so I read the post as Tom thinks keeping multiple species of tortoise in the same enclosure is as dangerous as sticking a knife in an outlet, and people who don't percieve the danger just haven't been shocked yet. IMO, adding the cartoon seemed like a good way to try to keep the debate light, not as a way to demean those whose opinions differ. Adding the cartoon could also be seen as offensive, so I don't fault anyone for taking the cartoon personally either.

The appropriate way to address a reductio is to either argue that the original "absurd" argument is not absurd, or that the comparison doesn't apply to the particular situation. I have seen others post on both fronts, how placing a knife into an outlet doesn't always have to be dangerous if you have the experience/knowledge necessary to avert danger, and how mixing species is not something that should be viewed as inherently dangerous on the basis that diseases/parasites do not harm with the same certainty that electicity does. To me, I think the analogy is good as both activities are associated with a known potential for harm, and it seems that the validity of the argument is resting on the premises involved in the spread and lethality of parasitic organisms.

Folks that agree that species should not be mixed because of parasites/diseases need to recognize that correlation does not imply causation. Tortoises who lived in mixed species setups and die en masse might be dead for a reason unrelated to the pathogens they contain upon necropsy. 

Folks that argue that species can be mixed because diseases/parasites don't work the way layman think they do need to remember that sometimes correlation is a result of causation, even if the root cause has not yet been identified. Exceptions do not always disprove rules and the list of diseases whose mechanics and cures are still unknown is staggering.

I, for one, I am in favor of the better-safe-than-sorry position. I have never personally mixed species and had animals die. I have never personally mixed species and had animals live. I don't mix species. I also don't make it a point to sanitize my hands between handling species, but when one tortoise species lives in the basement and the other is outside I don't exactly think about spreading things;perhaps I should. I have had tortoises of the same species die due to aggression issues that I failed to acknowledge because I thought I was paying attention to my animals too well to listen to the advice of more seasoned tortoise veterans who saw the issue through the internet. Tortoises are not snakes, but when you hear about the differences between the way boas and pythons react to IBD... those of you with a better understanding of diseases could probably provide a very good argument for why IBD is not a good example of a disease that affects multiple species within a type of animal, but it is the scary reptile disease that I think about when it comes to cross-contamination threats.

Chris, I'm trying to make sure I read the papers you posted correctly. Thematically, the Dobson article suggests that the nastiest parasitic organisms that infect animals are those that find a way to hitch a ride and mutate on carrier species, with humans being listed as a carrier species of concern? And the Holt article suggests that parasitic organisms can be lethal to species that compete for resources with their preferred host, but are more likely to be lethal to species that prey on their preferred host? If I read both correctly, it seems that my tortoises are just as likely to cross-contaminate using me as a vector as they would were they living together. And my monitor lizard, as a predator, has significantly more to worry about from my tortoise's diseases than my sulcata does from my hingebacks? (Ignoring for a moment, of course, that the sulcata is CBB and the others are WC. And that my monitor may be mostly an insectivore in the wild and probably wouldn't prey on tortoises very often. I'm talking in broad themes here, not details.)

I personally don't view the asking of husbandry questions as a sign of inexperience. I had my hingebacks living quite comfortably for years before I found this forum and the only reason I joined and looked around is because I moved from FL to IN and found myself with difficulties maintaining humidity levels. Sometimes people find themselves facing new puzzles and a forum with... um, how many thousand members now?... doesn't seem like a bad place to get input for solving them.


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## ascott (Dec 16, 2011)

"opinion"? my opinion leads me to believe that this thread has gone to the crapper.....the only thing that I am getting from this thread at this point is that there are folks on here that do not like Tom, sorry Tom but kids on the playground are running a muck. I am thinking that if we all just leave them to themselves they will get bored with their banter and hopefully go do something worthwhile. 

However, I think you are a big boy and can once again come on over to the playground area where the kids have learned how awesome it is to play with heart and consideration and respect.... 

Tom, in my humble opinion  There is nothing positive to be gained here on this thread.....anything you offer up as your opinion is going to be turned into "show me proof" if this were a scientific forum that would be understandable.....so the thread has been so tainted it has become something else totally....

I am personally seeing alot of the blah blah blah....look at what degree I have and therefore what I say goes, nonsense lately.....I do appreciate someones passion for the reptile, but also appreciate someone saying what they have to say and not starting such crap as happened here..oh wait, let me put in my disclaimer, IMHO that is.

Actually I learned along time ago those that accuse are likely the sad, pathetic culprit themselves.....once more, IMHO that is.


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## Baoh (Dec 16, 2011)

Tom said:


> Your level of understanding of debate techniques is of no interest to me and your subtle, cleverly worded slights have not gone unnoticed. I have tried to be mature and civil with you, but you continue try and out-word me. Please put the debate handbook down, and stop trying to sound like you are more intelligent than everyone else.
> 
> Simply stated, because I have no scientific studies demonstrating my point, does not mean it is not correct. Frankly, I don't think that such studies exist, but if they did, and if I could find them, I would certainly present them to you. Like wise, I can produce no studies proving the existence of air, but I have no problem asserting to anyone that air exists. Similarly, I have seen many tortoise die due to mixing species. Because studies do not exist, or I cannot find them, does not make this untrue. Why do you think it is okay to dismiss what I have told you that I have personally seem. That is analogous to calling me a liar. Do you think that I have not seen these things and that I am lying? For what purpose? What do I gain from telling people not to do something that I have personally witness killing tortoises, if it is not true? Do I have an underhanded plan to segregate the tortoises of the world for my own amusement? If you want studies and research papers then YOU spend your time hunting for them. I have better things to do and searching around for info to prove you wrong is not high on my list. I don't need scientist to tell me what I already know is true because I have personally experienced it.
> 
> ...



These are not debate techniques. I am pointing out that you frequently employ logical fallacies and it would behoove you to avoid doing so when trying to present your take on things. Otherwise, you fail to comply with standards of logic. Maturity and civility do not define your first post in this thread nor a number of others since. Therefore, your intentions were never meant to be mature and/or civil. This psychological defense mechanism you are using is called projection.

I do not remember any slights. Could you point them out? I can point out one of your ad hominem examples combined with a strawman misrepresentation. It would be the first post in this thread.

Studies are not the only form by which we can see verifiable data. Your say so does not meet any burden of objective evidence, however. The same goes for popular opinion.

There are studies that air exists. That is how we know what air actually is. Studies on such fundamental levels are also how we moved past "bad humors" to understand germ theory. The former was popular and everybody "knew" diseases were caused by "bad humors". We are better off, and many of us are alive today, due to brave souls who asked for more and sought substance instead of capitulating to the widely held belief that people at the time would mislabel as being fact.

You say you have seen many tortoises die due to mixing species, but if you knew this, you could furnish the evidence, as evidence is required to know this and not simply believe this. Otherwise, all you can state with accuracy is that you claim to have seen many tortoises of mixed species contact die and not that it is the mixing of species that were determined to be the root cause. That is an elementary difference between correlation and causation. I am not saying it is not the case that the situation created by the mixing of those particular different animals did not cause illness, assuming you are being honest. I am saying that, without the evidence, you can claim to believe such and assume such, but stating you know such is what we call intellectual dishonesty. You are the one shying away from backing up an assertion you have made. This may be because you lack the evidence or ability to do so. As for what is true, I believe that you believe what you espouse is true. However, you either lack or are unwilling to provide evidence supporting it. My hunch is that the former is likely the case, but I am always willing to entertain evidence to the contrary if you are willing or able to provide it.

"For me to be wrong about this, it means that you must be right."

This is a false dichotomy. Another in a string of logical fallacies you cannot seem to avoid using. Things need not be mutually exclusive in accordance to what I have stated as my take on the matter. 

I never made an assertion that "tortoises from different continents CANNOT exchange diseases and become sick or die from them" if they are harboring pathogens or conditional pathogens that are subject to transmission. Feel free to show me where I stated exactly that. If I had said that, the onus would be on me to support it with evidence. However, I have not made such a claim.

"We are all well aware of disease transmission and which tortoises can get what and from where." 

This is an appeal to popularity fallacy. If everyone is well aware, then everyone can specify to exact and exhaustive detail, then, which exact species can get what pathogens and from which other species. Since not all are well aware, that portion of the claim is false. Since not all pathogens in all tortoise species have been studied or tested for infectious potential in all other tortoise species, that portion of the claim is also false.

A major point I have emphasized is that if an animal is not carrying a pathogen, it cannot transmit it. This is tautological. Self-evident. 

Since I respond to your questions and you seem to have missed mine, I will repost the following for you:

Which of these is carrying which specific high-mortality pathogens that are threats to which of these other species that are not threats to their own species such that there is especially grave concern that inter-specific contact is much more likely to be lethal than intra-specific contact? Name which of my tortoises are presenting high quantifiable risk to which of my other tortoises by transimitting which organisms since you are confident enough to tell me and others there is a serious risk as if fact when no such fact has been presented in this specific context. 

Russian roulette is not so scary when the gun has zero bullets.



BrinnANDGupta said:


> Here I thought this was just a funny joke about a stubborn little boy.. I should of known better lol
> 
> More on the point is why would someone ever do something that has been proven to kill and make tortoises sick...maybe not by "official'" scientists but by people...real tortoise people. Why would those people continue to mix species , which is incredible unnatural, when they have been told by multiple and multiple tortoise lovers that it could possible kill the tortoises ?
> I would think that people would just separate the tortoises because no one would want even the possibility of their tortoises dying... it may not be simple to just separate them when they keep many different kinds , it is a FACT that mixing species puts your tortoises more at risk of sickness and death, this fact can be disclaimed or just plain ignored so that people don't have to separate their different tortoise species and continue to keep tons of different species
> In the end in though I still miss the fact of why with many, many people saying that its bad and can cause sickness and death because it has happened to them in real life the mixing would continue? It is my personal opinion that the tortoises, all animals really that someone keeps, well being should be put first, above all other things and if that can not be done then dont have the animals or get the means to put their health first and foremost otherwise its not fair to the animals. I know full well though that not everyone shares this belief and keeps as many animals as they want and how they want despite the animals needs and health



Feel free to provide high-standard evidence supporting your assertions. 

What negative impacts on health have my personal practices resulted in for my tortoises? Growth, reproduction, and no symptoms of disease seem to indicate none have occurred with my animals in their specific context. Unless something is introduced, I have no more cause for concern of _ex nihilo_ illness due to this practice than I would have reason to worry about spontaneous generation.



Redstrike said:


> Pathogens and parasites jump around (phylogenetically), tortoises aren't an exception. See attached papers.



I do not contest this. I agree and added three examples earlier in the thread.



emysemys said:


> Whatever happened to our idea here on the forum that everyone, and that means EVERYONE, is allowed to have their own opinion. Boah has an opinion, AK (don't know his name ) has an opinion, I have many opinions.  We, NONE of us, have to prove our opinions. So if Tom believes that it is bad to mix species, he is allowed to have that opinion and he doesn't have to offer proof. That's what we've always stressed here on the forum. "Please feel free to state your opinion." What's so wrong with saying, "Ok, Tom, I see that you really believe that it is bad to mix species. I accept that that is your opinion. Personally, I don't agree with it and my opinion is that it is perfectly fine to mix species." End of story. Why this big debate?



Correct. No one has the responsibility to provide evidence of their opinions. Facts are another matter.



dmmj said:


> In my opinion fire is hot.



For illustrative purposes, it is convenient that you brought this up.

The feeling of fire being hot is perceptive, an interpretation, and is an opinion. That thermal energy is released by combustion is verifiable fact. Verifiable (factual) neurological defects can cause reversal of feelings (perceptions/opinions) of hot or cold, depending on the nature of the defect.

Whether it was to bring levity or to weigh in, thanks for the opportunity.





nikki0601 said:


> What about aquatic turtles, I never really thought about it especially just mixing sliders together, different subspecies, but when I got my Peninsula Cooter she was housed with red ear sliders, I got one of the sliders she was housed with too, I have always kept them together but would never put anything else in with them, not even the same species or ever put anything else in with my yellow bellies, I just keep the ones together that were hatched together and have always been together.. When it comes to my water turtles they stay with the turtles they lived with prior to me getting them



The same biological principles are applicable, depending upon which set of practices you find reasonable. There are a great many instances of observable close-quarters mixed-species occurring without incident, although disease can potentially spread easily in both mixed and non-mixed environments. My concerns in these situations come down to population densities and levels of aggression for certain species. I am not too worried about a river cooter despite its size. I am not too worried about a Stinkpot despite its aggression. However, an adult common snapper could cause quite a bit of mechanical damage (both to members of its own as well as other species) with a combination of both qualities. For me, that would be where my risk management evaluations would be applied. Others may use different criteria.


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## terryo (Dec 16, 2011)

ascott said:


> "opinion"? my opinion leads me to believe that this thread has gone to the crapper.....the only thing that I am getting from this thread at this point is that there are folks on here that do not like Tom, sorry Tom but kids on the playground are running a muck. I am thinking that if we all just leave them to themselves they will get bored with their banter and hopefully go do something worthwhile.
> 
> However, I think you are a big boy and can once again come on over to the playground area where the kids have learned how awesome it is to play with heart and consideration and respect....
> 
> ...



Once again you have taken the words right out of my mouth. This thread reminds me of a very similar thread a while ago. I'm starting to think that there are some people on here that used to be here under a different name. Please keep sharing with us, Tom. Your opinion and experience matters.


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## Baoh (Dec 16, 2011)

Tom said:


> You are welcome to your opinion of Baoh's tactics. I do not share it.
> *He IS making an assertion and it is the opposite of my assertion.* If I must prove mine in order for it to be credible why should the opposing side not prove theirs?
> What evidence is there? What I am to show? I and others have seen tortoises die from mixing species. What shall I post as proof? Pics of dead tortoises?
> I did not say the sky is falling. I said mixing species is a bad idea and it can lead to the death of one's tortoises and it can.
> ...



Please provide the quote to back up what you are asserting in bold above.

A poll, again, would be an appeal to popularity fallacy.

Evidence: Laboratory results of these instances that are claimed to have taken place in your presence. Organism identification with genomic confirmation of source such that host 1 is confirmed to have the same genomic ID of the organism in host two. Before without infection and after with infection. Statistically significant sample size. Arms of intra-specific infection versus arms of inter-specific infection that show the latter is more deleterious than the former in previously verified healthy animals via the same methods used to determine infection.

Your word is not evidence. See above. 



Tom said:


> Two points: This post was not about mixing species. Its about people ignoring the obvious. This has happened many times and most of the time it has nothing to do with tortoises. This does not mean that mixing species and ignoring people who say that they have seen fatalities as a result, does not fall into this category in my mind, but still the OP was a general statement. I was not pointing a finger at anyone in particular and insinuating "trust me or you are stupid".
> 
> Second point: I have no problem with people doing things differently than me. In fact when they get good results, I promote their methods and show them to others as alternatives to my way of doing things. Doing something that could very well kill tortoises and passing it off as okay, is not just "choosing a different way", it is potentially harmful. This is the only reason that I make such a big deal about doing it. If I was doing something that you knew first hand was bad for tortoises, would you not point it out? Then we could discuss why we see this issue differently. I would not insult you or try to belittle you or try to dazzle the audience with fancy terms. I would not ask you to produce documents that don't exist and insinuate that you are a liar, or somehow incompetent because you cannot produce said documents. If you Renee, said to me, "Tom, I have seen such and such with my own eyes." I would believe you. If others chimed in and supported your statements I would believe them too. I would also consider your motive. "What does Renee gain from trying to convince me of this?" This is not about two different, but harmless styles of keeping tortoises, this is about discouraging others from engaging in potentially harmful housing practices.



What is obvious implies common beliefs. If our beliefs are not shared, what we see to be obvious is different. By insisting that what you consider to be "obvious" overrides what another considers to be "obvious" does effectively translate to "trust me or you are stupid".

Feel free to answer the questions I have repeatedly asked you, by the way. It may be obvious to me that you have been sidestepping them, but it may not be obvious to you.



Your multiple mentions of the types of words I use lead me to believe you could derive great ROI from investment in a dictionary. Especially since you claimed or implied having an educational background in biology and parasitology. Or is it someone else who has the background and you are just whispering down the lane? The words I use are specific and have specific meaning in the contexts within which I make use of them. One cannot discuss matters of logic, experimentation, illness, biology, and so on by only trotting out a gem like, "Me like cookes real goooood."

Any style of housing tortoises has the potential to cause some form of harm. Many styles have yielded success and many have yielded failure. On occasion, these have even been the same styles.


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## Tom (Dec 16, 2011)

Baoh, you are correct in that I do not have "evidence" to present. I have asked several times now, what evidence is there? I know of no studies. If there are studies, I do not know how to find them. If I could get vet records and necropsy reports, what would that prove? I suspect you would find a way to invalidate whatever I came up with. As far as your specific questions, I could not begin to speculate what your individual animals do or don't have. I do not know their origin, their past or their present, and even if I did, there is no way I would know what they have or have not been exposed to. Are you asking me to list specific diseases that are known to commonly be carried by certain species? Like cryptosporidium in Russians and pancakes? Or tortoise herpes that is common in Russians and some of the other Testudo sp.?

This conversation now seems pointless to continue to me. My opinion, based on what I have seen is that mixing species is risky and potentially harmful. Nothing you say will change that. I thought YOUR opinion was that it is not risky and not potentially harmful, but you have stated that is not correct (paraphrasing). So please tell me/us, what is your opinion about mixing species? What ever your opinion is, it seems highly doubtful that I will change it. So tell me, do you see a point in continuing on?


J, Your points about "experts" and CB vs. wild caught are valid and well made. Thank you for that. But CB does not equate to disease free. Certainly there is generally less risk from a CBB, and certainly one can be careful about what individuals are mixed. I will give you that. But having seen disastrous results, my point is only that mixing species is risky and should not be encouraged. Sure lots of other things are risky too, but I just don't see any benefit to taking THIS risk, especially since its so easy to avoid. It occurs to me that just like I did with Baoh, I have assumed (my bad) that I know what your opinion is on the matter of mixing species, but I cannot recall you actually stating it. So that I understand better what it is you are arguing for and against, may I ask, what is your opinion in mixing species?


Mike, I thought that was a very well worded, fair and balanced post. Thank you for attempting to see both sides.

Angela, thank you for the public vote of confidence and kind words.


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## Baoh (Dec 16, 2011)

chairman said:


> I saw Tom's original post as a reductio ad absurdum. It seems that Tom is frustrated when he sees people engaging in activities that he views as inherently harmful. I assumed he was referencing the keeping multiple species together thing too, so I read the post as Tom thinks keeping multiple species of tortoise in the same enclosure is as dangerous as sticking a knife in an outlet, and people who don't percieve the danger just haven't been shocked yet. IMO, adding the cartoon seemed like a good way to try to keep the debate light, not as a way to demean those whose opinions differ. Adding the cartoon could also be seen as offensive, so I don't fault anyone for taking the cartoon personally either.
> 
> The appropriate way to address a reductio is to either argue that the original "absurd" argument is not absurd, or that the comparison doesn't apply to the particular situation. I have seen others post on both fronts, how placing a knife into an outlet doesn't always have to be dangerous if you have the experience/knowledge necessary to avert danger, and how mixing species is not something that should be viewed as inherently dangerous on the basis that diseases/parasites do not harm with the same certainty that electicity does. To me, I think the analogy is good as both activities are associated with a known potential for harm, and it seems that the validity of the argument is resting on the premises involved in the spread and lethality of parasitic organisms.
> 
> ...



Thank you for this very even-handed post. I appreciate it. To me, it presents a more complete perspective well.


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## Redstrike (Dec 16, 2011)

chairman said:


> I, for one, I am in favor of the better-safe-than-sorry position. I have never personally mixed species and had animals die. I have never personally mixed species and had animals live. I don't mix species. I also don't make it a point to sanitize my hands between handling species, but when one tortoise species lives in the basement and the other is outside I don't exactly think about spreading things;perhaps I should. I have had tortoises of the same species die due to aggression issues that I failed to acknowledge because I thought I was paying attention to my animals too well to listen to the advice of more seasoned tortoise veterans who saw the issue through the internet. Tortoises are not snakes, but when you hear about the differences between the way boas and pythons react to IBD... those of you with a better understanding of diseases could probably provide a very good argument for why IBD is not a good example of a disease that affects multiple species within a type of animal, but it is the scary reptile disease that I think about when it comes to cross-contamination threats.
> 
> Chris, I'm trying to make sure I read the papers you posted correctly. Thematically, the Dobson article suggests that the nastiest parasitic organisms that infect animals are those that find a way to hitch a ride and mutate on carrier species, with humans being listed as a carrier species of concern? And the Holt article suggests that parasitic organisms can be lethal to species that compete for resources with their preferred host, but are more likely to be lethal to species that prey on their preferred host? If I read both correctly, it seems that my tortoises are just as likely to cross-contaminate using me as a vector as they would were they living together. And my monitor lizard, as a predator, has significantly more to worry about from my tortoise's diseases than my sulcata does from my hingebacks? (Ignoring for a moment, of course, that the sulcata is CBB and the others are WC. And that my monitor may be mostly an insectivore in the wild and probably wouldn't prey on tortoises very often. I'm talking in broad themes here, not details.)



Hi Mike,
In all honesty, it's been a long time since I've read the papers, but from my recollection, you seem to have a good diagnosis of their general points. I simply wanted to present some sound, level-headed evidence in favor of not housing similar but different species together. We know tortoises are coprophagous and likely transmit parasites and pathogens readily as a result of this behavior. Your post is fine, but I'm becoming heavily disinterested in discussing any of this further, given the derailment of civility and respect that I'm seeing. I'm not interested in pissing matches. 
I think I've posed my position well and don't see how I can contribute further to this discussion. There is no doubt, if you house two separate species together they may (or may not) exchange previously unencountered pathogens that they did not coevolve with, posing great risk for mortality. The introduction sections of both papers present this nicely.


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## Baoh (Dec 16, 2011)

Tom said:


> Baoh, you are correct in that I do not have "evidence" to present. I have asked several times now, what evidence is there? I know of no studies. If there are studies, I do not know how to find them. If I could get vet records and necropsy reports, what would that prove? I suspect you would find a way to invalidate whatever I came up with. As far as your specific questions, I could not begin to speculate what your individual animals do or don't have. I do not know their origin, their past or their present, and even if I did, there is no way I would know what they have or have not been exposed to. Are you asking me to list specific diseases that are known to commonly be carried by certain species? Like cryptosporidium in Russians and pancakes? Or tortoise herpes that is common in Russians and some of the other Testudo sp.?
> 
> This conversation now seems pointless to continue to me. My opinion, based on what I have seen is that mixing species is risky and potentially harmful. Nothing you say will change that. I thought YOUR opinion was that it is not risky and not potentially harmful, but you have stated that is not correct (paraphrasing). So please tell me/us, what is your opinion about mixing species? What ever your opinion is, it seems highly doubtful that I will change it. So tell me, do you see a point in continuing on?
> 
> ...



Vet records and necropsies showing what you claim would suggest there was substance to the argument in those specific instances and this is not all a bunch of confirmation bias yarn-spinning.

You said it is dangerous for me to mix my animals of different species. Back that up. Which pathogens are _my_ animals carrying that present greater risk to their cohabitants than to members of their own kind?

Oh, it is all opinion now in the backpedal? You said it was fact. Foxhole conversion? I have stated my position multiple times in this thread. There is a paucity of direct evidence supporting your position of there being greater risk of mixing species, regardless of circumstance, and that is no foundation for the added prophetic assertion that I will induce additional harm to my animals as a result. My position, distilled, is that every situation is different and is worthy of evaluating on its own merit instead of blanket response without evidence. In addition, I have made mention that an animal of one species does not and cannot transmit a disease caused by an infectious pathogen to another, whether of its own or another species, if the animal does not possess the pathogen in the first place. You cannot realistically fire a bullet out of a gun that is not loaded. Finally, there is little evidence to show that the majority of pathogens of tortoises of one species will cause greater harm to tortoises of another species relative to transmission among its own kind. The possibility exists, but a conclusion of such across the board is an opinion and cannot be rightfully claimed as a fact by definition. I do not encourage or discourage species mixing. I recommend others make their own informed decisions as I have made for my situation. I am not seeking to change anyone's opinion. That is one of the many differences in our approaches. As I said earlier, I am not here to proselytize and have no desire for it. Gaining a following is not among my goals.

Nobody said CB means disease free. However, CB can mean disease free. Properly kept WC can eventually mean that, too, although I would personally place greater bets on known unexposed CB. In the paper I attached, they showed CB removed the risk of pathogenic presence of Mycoplasma agassizii in that segregated population. Exposure after the fact would negate this, but that is always the case and this is being shown in the context of a single species for the example of how one can divorce the pathogen aspect from the species aspect.

Sulcatas kill sulcatas. Snappers kill snappers. Well-matched individuals of different species may not even pose as much risk in certain specific circumstances as same species cohabitation.


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## Tom (Dec 16, 2011)

Baoh said:


> Evidence: Laboratory results of these instances that are claimed to have taken place in your presence. Organism identification with genomic confirmation of source such that host 1 is confirmed to have the same genomic ID of the organism in host two. Before without infection and after with infection. Statistically significant sample size. Arms of intra-specific infection versus arms of inter-specific infection that show the latter is more deleterious than the former in previously verified healthy animals via the same methods used to determine infection.
> 
> Your word is not evidence. See above.





I just spent nearly a thousand dollars total over the last month to diagnose a mystery illness on one single tortoise that I bought months ago. It was captive bred and came from a compound that houses many species.

To provided the standard of evidence that you require would take months or years and cost thousands and thousands of dollars. 

So lets put this in perspective in the real world: A guy with a tortoise compound or a back yard, not a lab, buys some tortoises of different species and puts them all in the same pen together. They can be captive bred or wc or what ever you want. Down the road, some or all of these tortoises get a disease and or die. If they died they guy is out hundreds or thousands of dollars. If they are sick, he's spending hundreds on vet bills. Once they are dead, in order for you to believe that it had something to do with mixing species, he should then fork out thousands more for professionally performed necropsies performed at an accredited lab by an accredited necropsy specialist? Of course he would have had to spend thousands of dollars up front to diagnose and prove what the tortoises did and did not have before they were mixed. Let us not forget that some of these pathogens are very difficult, if not impossible to diagnose without a necropsy. So that means that up front a few tortoises would have to be sacrificed for necropsy, but even then, that would only prove to you that those necropsied individuals did or did not have a certain pathogen. So this guy would have to spend thousands up front, and then thousands after his disaster in order to conclusively prove to you that it was caused by mixing species? In order to provide "evidence" of it? Now of course this would only be one guy and one situation, and so MANY people would have to do this, to satisfy your need for indisputable proof.

Baoh, I cannot meet your standard of proof. Not today, not anytime soon. If I win the lottery and I have loads of money and lots of time on my hands, I might decide to pursue this course. Of course at that point, I will be enjoying life so much that I probably won't care if I can offer "proof" of things that I know to be true.

Everyone has their standards. I now understand your standards and I am unable to meet them. Please remember that because I cannot offer the proof that you require does not mean that my opinion in this matter is not correct, it just means that I cannot meet YOUR standard of proof.

My requirements of proof are significantly lower. If I know a guy who has some redfoots and they are fine for many years, and then one day he puts some russians in their pen, and the next thing you know the redfoots start dying of a disease that russians are known to commonly carry, that is enough proof for me. Or if a guy in Asia has a mix of species all living together and comes onto a public forum and admits that he lost a radiated due to mixing species, I believe him. Not scientific at all, but I guess I am easily swayed. When I have someone like Yvonne who runs a rescue and has handled thousands of tortoises for decades do a post that she has also seen problems from mixing species, that is enough for me. When multiple importers and wholesalers tell me the same story I believe them too. When respected breeders share their stories at public conferences, I believe them too. I know, I know this is one of the "group fallacies" or something like that, right? Or was it the "appeal" to something or other fallacy? In any case it may not be up to your scientific standards, but it is enough for me, and it is the reason why my opinion is that mixing species is not a good practice.

I think I can end our arguing with this statement: "I Tom, from tortoiseforum.org, have seen anecdotal evidence over many years that leads me to have the OPINION that mixing species of tortoises can lead to the spread of disease and the death of some tortoises. I cannot offer scientific proof of this."



One more point I want to make about facts. Whether a person believes it or not, a fact is still a fact. Example: My name is Tom. This is a fact. Some people may not believe it. Some people may require official documentation before they will be convinced, but that does not mean it is not a fact. Now I might have made that name up for the internet or I might have phony "official" documentation, in which case the statement would not be a fact. So really what good is the paperwork anyway? We all know from watching the news that statistics, figures, paperwork and documentation can be twisted, falsified, skewed, or reported genuinely, to prove or disprove any point. Documentation would not make my fact any more or less factual. It would just be a useful tool to convince other people of my fact.

The point is that regardless of whether someone does or does not have thousands of dollars of legitimate lab work to prove what they assert as fact, does not make it a fact and it does not make it not a fact. It just makes it easier for either side to argue one way or the other. If I had said lab work would the side opposing me simply capitulate, even though they still don't believe it, or would it just make my argument more credible? It seems to me that the issue here is one man's credibility, and not whether or not tortoises of different species can share diseases and should or shouldn't be housed together.

Sad, if that's the case.


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## Baoh (Dec 16, 2011)

Your compound houses multiple species, too. Did tests identify the source of the illness? How was the vector identified to exclusion of all else?

No, I would not suggest "some guy". I would suggest a qualified professional doing this with a grant and proper experimental design and methodology instead of the scientific equivalent of casting chicken bones.

My standards require control. You are describing jumping to the conclusion without creating a distinct path between root cause and effect. That is just slapping variables together and then approaching future events with the same preconception. 

As for examples that run counter to yours and those of the people you listed, there are individual accounts like mine and there are myriad zoos and parks functioning without problems. Also, the inconvenient matter of the various species that interact in natural settings without decimation.

For anyone who thinks they are adequately separating their different species such that no cross-contamination of surfaces is occurring despite intent, I invite you to purchase Glo Germ and use it for a week to a month without checking for it and using your normal "clean" husbandry practices. After that significant period of time, use the UV light. I have used this to demonstrate points of failure in the practice of rigorous aseptic technique to folks who felt they were doing an adequate job at preventing surface contamination. It is a very interesting little exercise. People may find that their "separate" species are very much in contact with one another on a typically invisible level beyond simple airborne transmission.

That is why we call it evidence, Tom, and not proof. My responses tend to be drama-free on their own. No need to inject any, as I discuss the merit of ideas and not so much people, which is quite different from how this thread was started.


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## stells2 (Dec 21, 2011)

I have been away for a while... nice to see this forum hasn't changed though... and people still get jumped on and banned for challenging Tom... its what has kept myself away... and also others... nice one TFO... i expect i too will be banned AGAIN later... since one of the very first posts i made when i came back on here was removed by mods on Tom's say so... 

Tom... you don't except different concepts... you do not have 25 years professional experience... you messed up your first lot of tortoises and are now trying to put it right... that is not 25 years PROFESSIONAL experience... you still have an ego the size of a house... i remember when you first signed up... as Roachman... you didn't have a clue... its laughable how many little followers you have... but thats what you wanted... and thats why you keep having to put up threads such as this... 

Remember people... there is more than one way to keep these animals... Toms way is not the only way... and is not a new theory patented by him... the humidity theory has been around for quite sometime... some people can successfully mix species (not that i do) but i can think of a few off the top of my head... 

You can either be a sheep... or you can discover there is a whole different world out there away from Tom's theorys...


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## Yvonne G (Dec 21, 2011)

Ok, all members: This is your official moderator notice. This is not a bash Tom thread. It is also not a "I love Tom" thread. If you have an opinion about sticking a knife in an electical outlet, or whatever the analogy was referring to, then feel free to state it, but please be civil to other members and don't resort to name-calling or bashing.

I really don't see that this particular thread has done much in the way of serving the tortoise-keepers of the world. I'm closing the thread until I hear from the other moderators about it.


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