# help needed! my baby leopard suddenly refuses to eat.



## Sidniy (Sep 25, 2016)

hi i need help here. I'm very new in raising a baby tortoise. I'm currently living in Malaysia with average temperature 23 C at night and 32 C during day time and himidity is about 80% thoughout the year. i usually put my tortoise outside when i go to work so he gets all the heat and sunlight during the day. i only had it for about a month plus. it used to be very active, seeing it walks around or at least standing up when i get back home at about 3pm. however, these few days, my tortoise sleeps when i get back home and only awake when pick it up or soak it. when i tried to feed it, it only takes a few bites and walk away. today, it even worse. it ate almost nothing except for a bite on hibiscus leaf and walked away. plus, today i noticed something from its poops. not sure if its parasite or just undigested food from yesterday



. here's some picture of it's set up.. most of the time i put it on the cemented area rather than the grass land. i scare it will eat the dirt. oh, at night i will bring inside my home and put it in a ceramic bowl.


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## JoesMum (Sep 25, 2016)

Hello and welcome

Do you have access to a vet who can check a fresh sample of poop for parasites?


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## Sidniy (Sep 25, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> Hello and welcome
> 
> Do you have access to a vet who can check a fresh sample of poop for parasites?


im not sure if my local vet can do that. they are more to dogs and cats. i live in a small town. maybe i can try my luck but i won't put so much hope on them.


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## JoesMum (Sep 25, 2016)

Any vet can check for parasites. It's the same test regardless. If the test is positive, come back to us regarding suitable medication and doses though!


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## Sidniy (Sep 25, 2016)

will try take tommorow's poop to test


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## Tom (Sep 25, 2016)

Your night temps are too cold and day time temps are too cool, unless your tortoise has access to sunshine.

Your tortoise also needs a proper enclosure with substrate up off of the ground.

Since its not a tiny little baby suffering from being too dry when it hatched, the most likely cause here is a husbandry issue. I find two usual issues over there in your part of the world.
1. People seem to think its already warm enough, so they don't use any supplemental heat sources day or night, indoors or out. Its not warm enough when they are kept inside with no access to sun in an indoor enclosure. Its definitely not warm enough on the concrete, at night, with high humidity and an over night low of 23 C.
2. People over there seem to mix species and house them together regularly. What was the source of your baby? Was he in a small tank living with other species before you got him?

Please read these:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/


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## Sidniy (Sep 25, 2016)

well, i never supply any heat for my tortoise since during the day time its really really hot here. up to 35 c and i think it will heat up the concrete much higher. as for night time, it could be too cold? perhaps. since i never measure the temperature here. outside would be 23c. so indoor i assume 1 or 2 degree c higher? i never put it outside since i got it during the night time. i bought my baby from a local pet shop. it was in a plastic container mixed with other species. good thing i took some pic before i bought it. yeah, i know it looks bad. so what's your best advice for the current time being? is using substrate necessary? so far no mucous found around the nose and mouth area. but i do saw once or twice bubble from the nose. once after soaking and the other time was being fed opuntia pad.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 25, 2016)

Mucous like that with the poop generally means flagellates.

You have some very pretty tortoise babies, but they each should be kept in separate habitats. Those tortoises would never cross paths in the wild and when you keep them all together like that you're taking a chance on making them sick. A tortoise habitat for a captive tortoise should look similar to this:






It doesn't matter how hot your weather is, the tortoises still need a light that they can sit under, just like they would sit in the sun, in order to warm up their inner core.

I think you'll find your leopard baby more interested in eating if you set him up in a proper habitat with a light that heats it up to in the 80'sF. Tortoises are territorial and they don't want to share their territory with other tortoises.


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## Sidniy (Sep 25, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> Mucous like that with the poop generally means flagellates.
> 
> You have some very pretty tortoise babies, but they each should be kept in separate habitats. Those tortoises would never cross paths in the wild and when you keep them all together like that you're taking a chance on making them sick. A tortoise habitat for a captive tortoise should look similar to this:
> 
> ...


oh those babies are not mine. those are the pics from the pet shop. i only have one so far.


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## Sidniy (Sep 25, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> Mucous like that with the poop generally means flagellates.
> 
> You have some very pretty tortoise babies, but they each should be kept in separate habitats. Those tortoises would never cross paths in the wild and when you keep them all together like that you're taking a chance on making them sick. A tortoise habitat for a captive tortoise should look similar to this:
> 
> ...



BTW, are these flagellates dangerous? do i need to do anything about it? or are they so common they can be neglected?


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## Tom (Sep 25, 2016)

Sidniy said:


> BTW, are these flagellates dangerous? do i need to do anything about it? or are they so common they can be neglected?



Different species of tortoises from around the world all have different parasites and pathogens. Normally a healthy tortoise can deal with the "bugs" that are from its own area. When you mix species from different parts of the world, they are exposed to foreign types of "bugs" that they cannot defend against. This can happen even when they are captive bred babies.

Your tortoise needs a proper habitat with the correct heating, lighting and temperatures, and then hopefully, in time, it will fight off any "bugs" that it has been exposed too. Time will tell.


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## Fredkas (Sep 25, 2016)

Tom said:


> I find two usual issues over there in your part of the world.
> 1. People seem to think its already warm enough, so they don't use any supplemental heat sources day or night, indoors or out. Its not warm enough when they are kept inside with no access to sun in an indoor enclosure. Its definitely not warm enough on the concrete, at night, with high humidity and an over night low of 23 C.
> 2. People over there seem to mix species and house them together regularly. What was the source of your baby? Was he in a small tank living with other species before you got him?


Oh you are really doing your research and point it out exactly right! And they are very stubborn. I mean, they don't see any bad outcome yet. And never stated any pyramiding vs humidity thing, that makes even more debate.


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## Sidniy (Sep 26, 2016)

first of all, i would like to thank you everyone for their precious advice. here's some update of my baby tortoise today. 
but before that i need to clarify something. it's not that people in my part of the world doesn't care about humidity or temperature. maybe, just maybe it's really really hot here and so some people including me thought it would be not necessary to buy heat lamp. plus things like substrate and special lamps for reptiles are quite rare here in my small town. so i'll need to order it online and that would take sometime. 

as for my baby tortoise, today as i get back from home, it was sheltering, hiding away from the sun. should i force the sunlight by leaving out the shades or what? i tried to wake it and put it somewhere with sunlight, then it would just crawl back into shades. I tried soak it in warm water like i always did then tried to feed my baby again ( tried feeding before soaking but ate nothing) somehow it did take a few bit on the vege i gave it. not much though. just a few bite. it only eats under the shade and not under the sun. is the sun too bright? too much heat and lost appetite? here's the pic of my tortoise eating.


i still haven't got the substrate yet, ordering though. as for the poop for fecal exam? can't get any yet. nothing ate yesterday = no poop. no poop= no fecal exam. so parasites or no, unsure yet. anyhow, im suspecting respiratory infection. i can't see any mucous from the nose, but it keeps stretching it's neck. and then the neck will sort of like breathing like how a frog does. grow big then small big then small. yeah that's pretty much my report for today. hopefully some kind of master can explain the behavior shown? BTW, im sorry for my language if it's hard to understand.


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## Fredkas (Sep 26, 2016)

I am sorry i dont mean you when i said that.
I leave your other questions to some more experienced members.
What i want to point out is, you need to buy a temp gun, so you will know the temp of your tort environment. I have similar weather condition like you, our daytime sunshine around 11.30 a.m to 3.00 p.m is so hot that if your tort bask for one hour around that time, he will avoid any sunshine for the entire day, because the environment around it even when he is at shade, will be 33C which is maybe no reason he will bask again.

And maybe, just maybe, if you don't know. Tortoise is a cold blood animal. It means they can't generate heat using their own body. You know when we mammals feels cold, or hot, our core temp will help us. But that is different with tortoise, they depends on their environment. So if they feel cold, they search for heat and vice versa.
"But i don't know if he is too cold or too hot, because i think he is sick enough he won't walk"
that is why i recommends you buy a temp gun. You can measure his environment and his shell temp. Tortoise need to be around 28 at lowest to minimalize any health issues. And no need to force him to the sun.

I am sorry i am talking too much, if you know all of this already, ignore what i am typing. I am just trying to help.
I live in indonesia and yours and my weather condition is safe for tort in daytime (sometimes too hot, we need a lot of shade for them), but night time is too low especially the rainy season, i think your day temp is good, you just need to beware of night temp.

But read the link other members give you, i am just giving a very little information for you. There is still a lot to cover up.
I am also very careful with my tort health because i don't believe vet at my place, they are more for cats and dogs, same like yours. For me, here is the vet.

Hey keep us update.. and ask questions and read a lot. Wish the best for you and your tort.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 26, 2016)

Sidniy said:


> oh those babies are not mine. those are the pics from the pet shop. i only have one so far.



Sorry...I didn't read your original post thoroughly.

I also didn't realize that your cardboard habitat is outside in the sun. Of course, with real sunlight, you do not need a light. He can sit in the sun if he wants to, or he can sit in the shade if he wants to. Leave it. He needs the shade so he doesn't overheat.


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## Gillian M (Sep 26, 2016)

A very warm welcome to the forum. A cute tort you have! 

Torts do not like change therefore it takes them time to adapt.


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## Sidniy (Sep 26, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> I am sorry i dont mean you when i said that.
> I leave your other questions to some more experienced members.
> What i want to point out is, you need to buy a temp gun, so you will know the temp of your tort environment. I have similar weather condition like you, our daytime sunshine around 11.30 a.m to 3.00 p.m is so hot that if your tort bask for one hour around that time, he will avoid any sunshine for the entire day, because the environment around it even when he is at shade, will be 33C which is maybe no reason he will bask again.
> 
> ...



hi, from neighboring country. im so glad someone from the same climate responded. yeah. maybe night time too cold. i don't think my home manage to achieve 28c at night. will try improve the temperature and maybe try feeding metronidazole. since its highly possible infected by flagellates. i googled flagellates in tortoise all the symptoms matched. previously it does have diarrhea (i assumed because the feces are not solid and kinda wet). if it keeps on starving im afraid it doesn't have the energy to fight off any diseases. now im figuring out how to feed the metronidazole since its powdery form and my tort hardly eats anything.


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## Tom (Sep 26, 2016)

Sidniy said:


> hi, from neighboring country. im so glad someone from the same climate responded. yeah. maybe night time too cold. i don't think my home manage to achieve 28c at night. will try improve the temperature and maybe try feeding metronidazole. since its highly possible infected by flagellates. i googled flagellates in tortoise all the symptoms matched. previously it does have diarrhea (i assumed because the feces are not solid and kinda wet). if it keeps on starving im afraid it doesn't have the energy to fight off any diseases. now im figuring out how to feed the metronidazole since its powdery form and my tort hardly eats anything.



I would not medicate your tortoise without the guidance of an experienced tortoise vet.

The type of flagellates that would infect your tortoise are not necessarily treated by that medicine. Cryptosporidia, for example, is a flagellate protozoan and Metronidazol does nothing to treat it in a tortoise. Sometimes medicines do more harm than good.


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## Sidniy (Sep 26, 2016)

Tom said:


> I would not medicate your tortoise without the guidance of an experienced tortoise vet.
> 
> The type of flagellates that would infect your tortoise are not necessarily treated by that medicine. Cryptosporidia, for example, is a flagellate protozoan and Metronidazol does nothing to treat it in a tortoise. Sometimes medicines do more harm than good.


Oh wow. Never knew that. Thanks for the reminder. Almost bought the med. Does fecal exam helps identify flagelatte? But my baby havent poop since yesterday. So so worried. Its growing so weak. Its more to crawling than walking already.


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## Tom (Sep 26, 2016)

Sidniy said:


> Oh wow. Never knew that. Thanks for the reminder. Almost bought the med. Does fecal exam helps identify flagelatte? But my baby havent poop since yesterday. So so worried. Its growing so weak. Its more to crawling than walking already.



It depends on the type. Some of them can be very difficult to diagnose. A tortoise vet will know how to try.

But this is one reason we always try to tell people not to mix species. These things are not easy to diagnose or treat, and you can't even be sure where it come from unless you diagnose it in a former cage mate. Many of these "bugs" can only be found in a necropsy by a vet who really knows what they are doing.


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## Sidniy (Sep 26, 2016)

oh no! I don't have tortoise vet here. we only have vet here which mostly treats cats and dogs. I asked the vet about fecal exam and he said he will try to check but won't thoroughly. Probably only able to identify certain parasites. Now I'm worried I have to see a slow agonizing death of my baby tortoise because of cross contamination.


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## Fredkas (Sep 26, 2016)

I am new to tort and i don't really have much knowledge about curing a tort. But if it is me with your condition now, i will manage the night temp at least 28c for now, 30c maybe better. And then I will soaks 2times a day in half luke warm water and half baby food for 30min each time.
That is all i am gonna do regarding his health and hope he recovers because the medicine is confusing for me and you haven't really sort it out. And yes sometimes medicine can be overdosis, it is scary . Hope the best for you and the little one.
Here i have something at my hand that @Kristina wrote a while back.

_"Over the years, when I have had a young tortoise or turtle that was weakened, ill, not eating, etc., I have used baby food/vitamin soaks as a means to add needed nutrients and energy. The method for this is simple. Prepare a soak for your tortoise. The water should be warm but not hot to the touch, and the level of the water should just cover the bridge between the carapace (upper shell) and plastron (lower shell.) Into the water, mix one jar (or less for smaller volume soaks, but a good portion of around 30-40% of the total volume) of human baby food. Carrots or butternut squash seem to work the best. To the water can also be added bird vitamins of the kind that are mixed with water (Vitasol is one) and I have also used human baby vitamins (such as Gerber Poly Vi Sol.) Another great option is to add a liquid calcium carbonate solution, which can be purchased over the counter and is particularly a good choice for tortoises that have soft carapaces or plastrons, or very fine grade, suspendable calcium carbonate powder. The soak should be placed in an area that will allow it to remain warm for 15-20 minutes, such as on a heat pad, under a heat lamp, or next to a heat duct.

The symptoms under which I use/recommend this treatment are - lethargy, refusing to open eyes, puffy eyes, refusing to eat, and softness of the shell. Sometimes antibiotic therapy will cause a tortoise to go off its feed for a few days, and these soaks can be used at that time, also.

Yvonne is another advocate of this treatment, and she recommends it often and has used it to good effect herself."_


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## Sidniy (Sep 26, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> I am new to tort and i don't really have much knowledge about curing a tort. But if it is me with your condition now, i will manage the night temp at least 28c for now, 30c maybe better. And then I will soaks 2times a day in half luke warm water and half baby food for 30min each time.
> That is all i am gonna do regarding his health and hope he recovers because the medicine is confusing for me and you haven't really sort it out. And yes sometimes medicine can be overdosis, it is scary . Hope the best for you and the little one.
> Here i have something at my hand that @Kristina wrote a while back.
> 
> ...


thank you so much for the tips. will try baby food soaks. so meaning that, instead soaking in warm water, i have to switch to soak 50% warm water and 50% baby food right? ok , will try it out once i got back home later.


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## Fredkas (Sep 26, 2016)

Sidniy said:


> thank you so much for the tips. will try baby food soaks. so meaning that, instead soaking in warm water, i have to switch to soak 50% warm water and 50% baby food right? ok , will try it out once i got back home later.


Yes you are right, because tortoise can absorb things through their skin. He is not eating, give him nutrient to his soaks, then there is something go inside his body and maybe he drink some of the water.


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## Sidniy (Sep 26, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> Yes you are right, because tortoise can absorb things through their skin. He is not eating, give him nutrient to his soaks, then there is something go inside his body and maybe he drink some of the water.


uhh..if it really works, i wish i can give u a great big hug!


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## Sidniy (Sep 27, 2016)

hey guys! here's what happened to my tortoise today. as usual, i put it outdoors for sunlight early in the morning about 6am, which is just about sunrise and come home from work. today i came back a bit late, about 4 something and i realize my tort hardly ate anything. just a few bite from hibiscus leaves. here's the bite marks.



then i tried warm water soak for about 30 minute then tried hand feed it, ate nothing. hence i try baby food soak. 50% baby food and 50% water. at first it doesn't have the strength to climb out. as u can see later, the baby food soak dish is very very shallow. after about 15 minutes my tort starts to eat/ drink from the dish. not sure eating or drinking. open its mouth so wide like gasping for air, and its whole face was in the soak. after a few drinks or so, it starts to climb out from the soak dish. so, i put everything back into the cardboard habitat. what happen next is amazing. not only it can climb out of the soak dish, but also eats the vege leaves and hibiscus leaves. its like battling with the leaves. tearing them apart. so savage. and ate quite a lot. it will then get back to have some baby food, then continue devouring the leaves like crazy. i wonder if the baby soaks works or what. anyway, so much thanks to everyone especially to Fredkas for suggesting baby soak.

here's a look at the leaf after 5 to 10 minutes of eating


im so glad my baby is active again. just bought an exo terra infrared lamp for night heating now waiting for it to arrive. hopefully it will continue active as usual.


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## Fredkas (Sep 27, 2016)

Oh i am so happy i can help you and him. So glad he improves!! Actually you don't thank me, you should thank all others senior member that putting big effort to provide their knowledge. I am just parroting. Btw, You should do this routine every single day. 2 times a day and really keep an eagle eye for the temp. Errr... Infrared lamp for night heating is not really recommended, but better than nothing. I thinks it is the time for you to read the best care sheet and provide the best for your tort, then he will not only have a healthy life but he will grow so quickly that you amazed. Are you ready? Coz there are still several not really good things in your tort habitat.

Ah yes another one, some tort still hasn't figure out you are the monster who want to eat him or what. So you learn his behaviour. If he still afraid of you, you should step back a little to give him some times to figure out anything.


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## JoesMum (Sep 27, 2016)

Hi 

Infrared lamps are not recommended. 

Your tort needs complete darkness at night

Also an infrared lamp colours the tank substrate and decor red. Tortoises love red foods, even if they're not good for them, and start eating things they shouldn't (I've watched mine trying to eat red circles printed on a newspaper!)

If you need more heat at night, you should use a Ceramic Heat Emitter with a thermostat like this


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## Sidniy (Sep 27, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> Oh i am so happy i can help you and him. So glad he improves!! Actually you don't thank me, you should thank all others senior member that putting big effort to provide their knowledge. I am just parroting. Btw, You should do this routine every single day. 2 times a day and really keep an eagle eye for the temp. Errr... Infrared lamp for night heating is not really recommended, but better than nothing. I thinks it is the time for you to read the best care sheet and provide the best for your tort, then he will not only have a healthy life but he will grow so quickly that you amazed. Are you ready? Coz there are still several not really good things in your tort habitat


lol can you point out the bad things? like substrate? hide area and basking area? btw, i've read the care sheet before. if its about habitat, i need time to perfect it cz they everything cost so much here. as for the uv, i guess we have plenty. not sure if i should make it my priority. cz we have sunlight 365 days. and its pretty hot here. even on rainy days. maybe 365 days is a bit too much. but rainy days wont last more than 2 to 3 days here. raining 7 days continuously is considered disaster here. lol! as for the food, im not too sure what kind of weed we have here are safe. as far as i know from what i read from most forums or web sites, the only easily accessible good food are the hibiscus and opuntia pads. i can get aloe vera but he never liked it. one bite and he spits out like eating a piece of crap. so most of the time i only feed vege and hibiscus leaves. even veges im not sure what. we called it sawi and kailan here. i guess it's green mustard?


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## JoesMum (Sep 27, 2016)

If you post pictures of plants growing round you - with the name you know them by if you know - we can try to help you


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## Sidniy (Sep 27, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> Hi
> 
> Infrared lamps are not recommended.
> 
> ...


 
oh talking about eating, i forgot to mention that, my tortoise tried to bite the side of my white soaking dish it was so funny because he can't get anything from there aside from maybe licking the baby food sticking to the side of the dish. and about eating red food, mine doesn't seems to like red food. i tried offering red hibiscus but he doesn't seems to be interested. not sure if i can get the seller to change to heat emitter. cause they haven't send out the item yet. will try to contact the seller tomorrow.


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## Sidniy (Sep 27, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> If you post pictures of plants growing round you - with the name you know them by if you know - we can try to help you


great help! thank you so much. will try to post some pics tomorrow. i have plenty of grass and weeds around but not sure if its safe or not. that's all.


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## Fredkas (Sep 27, 2016)

Sidniy said:


> lol can you point out the bad things? like substrate? hide area and basking area? btw, i've read the care sheet before. if its about habitat, i need time to perfect it cz they everything cost so much here. as for the uv, i guess we have plenty. not sure if i should make it my priority. cz we have sunlight 365 days. and its pretty hot here. even on rainy days. maybe 365 days is a bit too much. but rainy days wont last more than 2 to 3 days here. raining 7 days continuously is considered disaster here. lol! as for the food, im not too sure what kind of weed we have here are safe. as far as i know from what i read from most forums or web sites, the only easily accessible good food are the hibiscus and opuntia pads. i can get aloe vera but he never liked it. one bite and he spits out like eating a piece of crap. so most of the time i only feed vege and hibiscus leaves. even veges im not sure what. we called it sawi and kailan here. i guess it's green mustard?


Same about veggies, i am also confused lol. But sawi kailan bokchoy is ok, it just hibiscuss opuntia and weeds is better, but a variety is the best for sure. So give that all.
We are here to help. It just sometimes new member can't swallow it all and some get offended. I hope you never feel that way. People here so eager to help because we love tort so much and everyone feels the sadness if someone lost his tort even we all don't know each other in real life.
Ok i'll share my enclosure idea for you. Are you willing to spend 200RM? The cost is around that and your tort will be happy as hell lol.
NB. ONLY WORKS IN MALAYSIA-LIKE WEATHER
1. Ignore and never waste your money for uvb because you don't need it at all.
2. Throw away your cardboard. Put him in your grass enclosure, it is way better. Do not worry about soil will make him sick, parasites will make him sick, etc, I think it is ok. What i am worry about is cat or rat. Search for outdoor enclosure idea from this forum. There are a lot. Copy the easiest and cheapest one yet effective. Do not waste your money on this unless it is necessary.
This is an easy example





Yours is good already, i seen it at your first post, just add a lot of shade and water pool like pic above.search for free things, any broken not used things can be used. Be creative, this is the fun part .
3. Do not go to petshop anymore. You don't need anything there.
In fact, go to aliexpress.com
- Search for thermostat, buy one.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Dua...610885372.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.105.DN5OwU
- Search for ceramic heat emitter (CHE), buy one.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hig...2584704460.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.64.DN5OwU
- Search for thermometer hygrometer with probe, buy 2.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1PC...2612518757.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.71.mkV67B
- Search for temp gun, buy one.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1-P...2580279495.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.81.DN5OwU
Done.
It will cost you around 170RM for all of them. This is necessary and very essential.
4. Search an aquarium or buy one or ask one, any way, make it happen, just get one lol. After that find soil from somewhere that you sure 100% no pesticides treated, fill your aquarium for around 3 to 4 inch thick with soil. Remember no sand. Get broken kitchen tub or whatever it is, make it upside down and cut a hole, put it into the aquarium, and put water dish inside too. Pour, yes pour not spray, the water to the soil untill all of the soil wet.
This is the example




This is not ideal but ok than nothing.
5th. Go to local elecric shop. Buy ceramic fitting for your che (around 5RM).
http://data:image/jpeg;base64,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




Mount it into a piece of board and place it at the top of the aquarium like this




You don't need that dome shape fitting to save your money.
6. Put the aquarium at a place that have natural light like beside the window so your tort know when is daytime and when is night time.
7. Cover the aquarium using a piece of plastic to trap heat and humidity.
Like this more or less





That aquarium is your tort bed at night and the shelter when you have disaster (7days continuously raining lol).
Done. All the basic is cover up.

Che is a bulb that don't emit any light but heat. Because tort need entire dark environment at night. I am sorry joes mum tells you exactly why you should avoid infrared lamp. It is not the entire darkness that concern with ir light, it is the color it emits. Remember do not go to petshop to buy anything, instead come here and ask.
Thermostat is something that control your che at night. When the temp is low the thermostat will activate the che to warm up the enclosure. When the temp is warm enough the thermostat will shut down the che. So you have a home for the tort that always in right temp. Let the thermostat helps you.
Easy and cheap right? Come on move 

Btw, this is still far then perfect for your little one, but this setup already make him far happy than now. The perfect one should be like this
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/

You can consider an upgrade when you are ready and save up more money. Now your concern is eliminate your problem first.


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## Sidniy (Sep 27, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> Same about veggies, i am also confused lol. But sawi kailan bokchoy is ok, it just hibiscuss opuntia and weeds is better, but a variety is the best for sure. So give that all.
> We are here to help. It just sometimes new member can't swallow it all and some get offended. I hope you never feel that way. People here so eager to help because we love tort so much and everyone feels the sadness if someone lost his tort even we all don't know each other in real life.
> Ok i'll share my enclosure idea for you. Are you willing to spend 200RM? The cost is around that and your tort will be happy as hell lol.
> NB. ONLY WORKS IN MALAYSIA-LIKE WEATHER
> ...


hahaha. it's kinda funny knowing that ur from Malaysia too! and i laughed at the 7 days raining part. i made that up actually. hahaha. and about buying stuff, it's like your alibaba's spokesperson. hahaha. thank you so much for the tips. but i'm a bit confuse about the kitchen tub make it upside down and cut a hole. what purpose ya? as if a cave for them to hide? and by covering the aquarium using plastic to trap heat and humidity, doesn't it suffocating? no air circulation. as for the temperature gun and stuff, maybe i'll try to search my local hardware store to see if there's any available. it kinda long having to wait 30 days for the item to arrive from china. but of course its cheaper that way. btw, which part are you from in Malaysia? i'm from Sandakan Sabah.


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## Fredkas (Sep 27, 2016)

Sidniy said:


> hahaha. it's kinda funny knowing that ur from Malaysia too! and i laughed at the 7 days raining part. i made that up actually. hahaha. and about buying stuff, it's like your alibaba's spokesperson. hahaha. thank you so much for the tips. but i'm a bit confuse about the kitchen tub make it upside down and cut a hole. what purpose ya? as if a cave for them to hide? and by covering the aquarium using plastic to trap heat and humidity, doesn't it suffocating? no air circulation. as for the temperature gun and stuff, maybe i'll try to search my local hardware store to see if there's any available. it kinda long having to wait 30 days for the item to arrive from china. but of course its cheaper that way. btw, which part are you from in Malaysia? i'm from Sandakan Sabah.


Yes exactly! I am like their spokeperson. But i can't help it. You try compare the prices. It is crazy. Why am i starting to behave like one of their spokeperson again? Lol.
Yeah to make a cave. Cave is essential to make him feel safe and comfort when he wants to sleep or hiding from whatever it is.
Nah i am from indonesia. But i know your country well enough.
No suffocating. Do not worry about that. It is the least thing you need to worry because a bunch of member used this idea and none of them having that problem. breeders here using this method for hatchlings. And you will open that plastic sheet when you take him out. That is more than enough circulation. Everybody does that.
Yes it is long. But i rather let you wait 30days and have all of that rather than buying several right away and not purchasing others . But it is super great if you can buy it right away of course. Post the setup.


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## Sidniy (Sep 27, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> Yes exactly! I am like their spokeperson. But i can't help it. You try compare the prices. It is crazy. Why am i starting to behave like one of their spokeperson again? Lol.
> Yeah to make a cave. Cave is essential to make him feel safe and comfort when he wants to sleep or hiding from whatever it is.
> Nah i am from indonesia. But i know your country well enough.
> No suffocating. Do not worry about that. It is the least thing you need to worry because a bunch of member used this idea and none of them having that problem. breeders here using this method for hatchlings. And you will open that plastic sheet when you take him out. That is more than enough circulation. Everybody does that.
> Yes it is long. But i rather let you wait 30days and have all of that rather than buying several right away and not purchasing others . But it is super great if you can buy it right away of course. Post the setup.


great! will post the set up once im done. but give me some time. can i use wooden ships sold at pet store rather than using soil? it seems dirty and scared he might ate some of it. plus, what if i don't have an aquarium for my indoor set up? can i use large plastic box? about 50 cm long x 30 cm high x 30 cm wide?


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## Fredkas (Sep 27, 2016)

Plastic box will do. Just don't buy it because that size is not ideal and you waste your money. Use whateveer you have. Save up. You gonna need big enclosure for him soon. That is where your money goes. What is wooden ship? Lol. Do not worry he will eat it, yes he may accidentally eat some of it but as long as you soaks him once a day, all that stuff will go out with poop. Instead of wooden ship, you can use coco coir, but i think it is hard to find. Place his food on a plate. Ceramic tile is good, use it upside down, his beaks will be trim when he eat.




Something like this


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## Sidniy (Sep 28, 2016)

hi guys, heres are some of the picture of plants i took. i don't know the name. i can easily see these around me most of the time

this one has white little flowers.


this one has a bit minty smell. but it doesn't look like mint to me. 


this one we called it 9 am flower? not sure in other places.


not sure what is this called. people here called it pegaga


i can see this all over the road side. when this flower matured, it looks like dandelion. the puffy flying stuff


as for this one, it looks like dandelion. the purplish pink is the flower bud. once it's bloom, it is round and puffy. and of course will fly with the wind. btw, those small small leaves in the picture, are those clovers? 

it seems my tortoise can be very moody and picky at food. today i tried hand feed 
hibiscus leaf: uninterested
sawi/ mustard greens: uninterested
kailan: appetizing 
i tried smearing some powdered cuttle bones onto the same kailan leaf: not interested at all( maybe the smell?)
wash away the powdered kailan leaf: starting to eat it back. 
i put everything together in a plate; chooses only kailan to eat.

how can i train him to eat more variety of food especially in grass, weeds and even cuttle bones?


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## Fredkas (Sep 28, 2016)

@Yvonne G good at identify plant.

Your can chop finely foof that he doesn't like along with food that he likes.

About the plant, 
5th plant is tridax daisy, poison for tort. Avoid it.
6th plant i don't know. I have it here too and throw it away
It sure looks like clover but there are one plant that looks similar to clover and it is poisonous, you better wait for the blooms so that you can be sure it is clover. But maybe yvonne can identify it for you directly.


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## Sidniy (Sep 28, 2016)

Oh didn't realize some of it are poisonous. I think mine might actually bite some while I put him in the garden for a walk. Now I'll just wait for plant expert to further elaborate.


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## Fredkas (Sep 30, 2016)

Hello how is everything with your little leo?


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## Sidniy (Sep 30, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> Hello how is everything with your little leo?


Hi thanks for the concern. Now my tort seems a bit better. But his appetite seems up and down. Doesn't always react to food. Previously, I shake a piece of leaf and he will come 'running'. But now when I put it anywhere, he will just simply stay there and look around. I had ordered the hygrometer and temperature gun. I realize temperature gun is not necessary since the hygrometer comes with thermometer. Apparently my indoor temperature is 28c plus minus 1c. Compared to outdoor early in the morning, it's 26c. Maybe that's why he isn't all active. For the last few days, my tort stays indoor from 7pm till 6pm. Then I will house him outdoor on the little grass garden in the morning until 7pm. Yesterday I saw a bubble from his nose. Once. Then no more. Not sure if it's the beginning of RNS or what. A bit worry. Still under observation. I also bought my ceramic heat emitter. Haven't have the time to set up yet. Good thing it's week end and I have some free time to set it up. Hopefully everything will be a ok.


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## Fredkas (Sep 30, 2016)

Yoohooo. Progressing. Temp gun is usefull. When you want to know that day time sun is how hot. You use temp gun. When you see he ia happy use temp gun to see at what temp he ia happy. Thermometer can't help you to know the environment fast enough. Temp his shell everything using temp gun. It is accurate fast detection. Also.. Sometimes thermometer is broken. Temp gun is the thing to ensure everything works well.
Your indoor enclosure need ambient too. If now you are putting him indoor sometimes. You should give him a sun. Where come a sun in indoor? Make it. How? Incandescent bulb will act as your little tiny indoor sun. So in indoor environment he will have sun too. Itisimportant because they need to get to around 35C to 38C daytime in order to be active. He will go to hotter place and cooler place to arrange his own body. And then he will happy and active. Usually if he looks stupid boring not moving, it is because too cold.


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## Sidniy (Sep 30, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> Yoohooo. Progressing. Temp gun is usefull. When you want to know that day time sun is how hot. You use temp gun. When you see he ia happy use temp gun to see at what temp he ia happy. Thermometer can't help you to know the environment fast enough. Temp his shell everything using temp gun. It is accurate fast detection. Also.. Sometimes thermometer is broken. Temp gun is the thing to ensure everything works well.
> Your indoor enclosure need ambient too. If now you are putting him indoor sometimes. You should give him a sun. Where come a sun in indoor? Make it. How? Incandescent bulb will act as your little tiny indoor sun. So in indoor environment he will have sun too. Itisimportant because they need to get to around 35C to 38C daytime in order to be active. He will go to hotter place and cooler place to arrange his own body. And then he will happy and active. Usually if he looks stupid boring not moving, it is because too cold.


Oh usually morning I'll just put him outside. Night only will bring him back indoors. Yeah. Nice description. Stupid boring not moving hahaha. I was thinking how to describe that. Hahaha. But somehow during day time, temperature can easily reach 35-38 c and I still can't see him walking around. Most of the time only sits under the shade wanting to sleep but not sleeping. Eyes open but neck inside. I don't know if I should buy the incandescent bulb. Doesn't seems important to me. Not sure. Maybe only useful during rainy days? Do they need that kind of temperature all the time or they can skip a day or two as long as not lower than 28c? As for the temperature gun, it's fun to play with. Hahaha. I shoot at the shell, the grass, the bowl, almost everywhere just to check the temperature. Hahaha.


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## Fredkas (Sep 30, 2016)

They need it actually. Come on. That bulb only 1 if not 2RM. Even your lunch is cost how many times that cost? Skip a lunch and you can buy a bunch lol.


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## Sidniy (Sep 30, 2016)

Really? Hahaha let me Google incandescent bulb 1st. See if I can get it from my local hardware store. Hahaha. I thought those the fancy fancy light bulb from pet store. They are selling those for rm 40-60 like that.


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## Fredkas (Sep 30, 2016)

No. I told you dont go there. Go to electric shop, the one that sold wire cable and any household bulb. Here it call lampu pijar. I dont know what it is called in malay.


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## Sidniy (Sep 30, 2016)

Hahaha. Yeah now I barely buy stuff there. They are like vampires, sucking our hard earn money. Only go there to browse and probably buy stuff and improvise.


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## Sidniy (Oct 1, 2016)

Hi, is it normal for my tortoise to make sound? How do i know hes breathing normally? Today i heard he made sound after i gave him a shower.


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## Lyn W (Oct 1, 2016)

www.thetortoisetable.org.uk is a good guide to tort safe plants it has lots if pictures and if you have a list of good food you can check what they look like in the pictures.


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## Fredkas (Oct 2, 2016)

Sounds is not normal. However some of them do make sounds. If he is ok then nothing to worry about.
Usually a tort that cannot breath normally, they will pull his head out high. But let more experienced people jump in. I'm useless about tort illness.


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## Sidniy (Oct 2, 2016)

thanks @Lyn W bump into that web before but most plants looks similar. hahaha. but will still try my best to identify them. 

as for my tortoise, i think i made a big mistake. all this time i thought outdoor was good. it was a big mistake. it was too hot. it can reach up to 45c. i put my tortoise out with shades provided just in case too sunny. i left it like that and do my stuff. i return home around 3pm and try to check on my tortoise, he looks bad. eyes closed, sleeping side ways. i freaked out. picked it up to see if he's still alive. thanks god it is. but then i can see bubbles from his nose. then the next morning, which is today, i can still see bubbles from his nose. but the nose is considerably dry. bubbles come out twice yesterday after that heat stroke. twice this morning when i put him out to outdoor. here's how the indoor and outdoor looks like.



for the outdoor 'pen', even with the cardboard or broken vase under the cardboard, its also too hot. the grass without shades can reach up to 50c. and humidity can drop as low as 30+%. now im not sure if the bubbles come from the heat, or the vegetables that was sprinkled with cuttle bone powder. i made that cuttle bone powder by blending cuttle bone pieces. usually i don't feed the cuttle bone powder. coincidentally i fed it yesterday then the weather got so hot. so unsure what causes the bubbly nose. any expert here?


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## Taco*mom (Oct 2, 2016)

Wow fredkas! I am impressed! You summarize a lot of things in this thread. Very very helpful. Thank you!


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## Fredkas (Oct 2, 2016)

Taco*mom said:


> Wow fredkas! I am impressed! You summarize a lot of things in this thread. Very very helpful. Thank you!


Nah it still far from perfect enclosure. I am struggling from giving the complete one vs the simple one. After i posted it out, i am afraid some members will scold me for being misleading


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## Taco*mom (Oct 2, 2016)

I am sure the senior members will understand. It will come down to personal choice how we're setting up the enclosure. Your simple one is heck a lot better than news paper substrate and nothing else.


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## Sidniy (Oct 3, 2016)

hi guys, today i realize one of my tortoise nose hole bubbles more frequently. i suspect RNS. last night when he was sleeping, i heard noise from breathing, i guess. his head and legs were moving while sleeping ( not walking type of moving, just front back and forth as if heavy breathing) eyes closed. definitely sleeping. this morning when i checked on him, his eyes was bright, but he did rub one of his eyes with his hand. sometimes, he would just close that eye. when that eye is closed, i can see its outer most eyelid a bit red rather than just grey. i was shocked thinking his eye bleeds. but when he opens his eyes, there was nothing. could it be allergic to the grass land habitat? or allergic to the cuttle bone powder i feed him? or respiratory infection? im such a bad owner. so many problems. is there anyone can help me with this? should i open a new thread for this problem? btw, he's still eating normally though.


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## JoesMum (Oct 3, 2016)

Have you separated these two? You must do so now one is sick. 

What type of UVB bulb do you have? If it is a compact coil type (looks like a low energy light bulb) then turn it off immediately as these can cause the eye problems you describe


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## Sidniy (Oct 3, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> Have you separated these two? You must do so now one is sick.
> 
> What type of UVB bulb do you have? If it is a compact coil type (looks like a low energy light bulb) then turn it off immediately as these can cause the eye problems you describe


oh hi @JoesMum i only have one tortoise so far. i don't have a uvb bulb as we have sunshine all year round. so its not hard to get my tortoise sunshine. but it will be definitely very hot under the sunshine. (direct sunshine can get up to 45c. under the shade can get 40c) The black thing above the blue plastic container is a ceramic heat emitter. it's so that my tort can get plenty of heat even at night.


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## JoesMum (Oct 3, 2016)

So how frequently do you soak this tortoise? And for how long?

Does it have access to deep shade where it can escape the 45C heat?


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## Sidniy (Oct 3, 2016)

well, i soak my tortoise everyday for at least 15 minutes. yes, the cardboard box that was covering the little grass habitat is the so called 'shade'. i don't have deep shade. as for today, i brought the grass habitat under the roof. so it won't have direct sunlight. (still considered outdoor and still with the cardboard on top) by doing so, the temperature is more controllable. which is around 35-40c.


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## JoesMum (Oct 3, 2016)

Your tortoise it quite probably over- heating. Stick a thermometer in the shade you have provided and see if it is actually cooler or whether it is heating up like an oven. 

You need to soak this tortoise for at least 30 minutes twice a day to rehydrate it.


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## Sidniy (Oct 3, 2016)

will try increases the soak. but could it be infected with diseases earlier on just before i bought it and the symptoms only surface up now?


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## JoesMum (Oct 3, 2016)

Possibly, but over-heating and dehydration won't help.


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## Lyn W (Oct 3, 2016)

@Yvonne G or @Tom may be able to help


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## Sidniy (Oct 3, 2016)

yeah a bit worry. this morning before going to work i gave a few pieces of vege for him to eat. he eats it. seems normal. no sound. no bubble. i let him do his business. after about 30 minutes later, i try to check on him, he was heating himself under the ceramic heat emitter. then i pick him up to see if his nose is watery or what, then the sound starts again, a bubble popped. stressed from over heating plus allergic? humidity seems ok. without direct sunlight, humidity is 50%+. indoors, humidity is 70-80%


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## Sidniy (Oct 5, 2016)

Hi guys, if I increase the humidity to 70% and keep the temperature around 28-35c, as well as soaking my tortoise, how long should the bubble be gone? It's been 3 days and I still see bubbles from his nose. I'm worried if it gets worse and ended up as pneumonia. The bubble is clear though. Not thick. I'm not sure what causes the bubble. If it's because I added too much cuttlebone powder into his meal then I only have myself to be blamed.


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## Gillian M (Oct 5, 2016)

Sidniy said:


> Hi, is it normal for my tortoise to make sound? How do i know hes breathing normally? Today i heard he made sound after i gave him a shower.


No I'm afraid sounds are not normal.

Hope the "experts" here will be able to give you advice, I cannot - sorry.


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## Sidniy (Oct 5, 2016)

Gillian Moore said:


> No I'm afraid sounds are not normal.
> 
> Hope the "experts" here will be able to give you advice, I cannot - sorry.


Oh thanks for the reply, but somewhat my tort doesn't produce sound of any kind d anymore. Just bubble. I'm curious what causes the sound too.


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## Taco*mom (Oct 6, 2016)

Hi Sidney, how's your tort? I hope he's doing better. Sorry I am not much of any help. Welcome to the forum by the way. Just realized I never get to say that to you.


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## Sidniy (Oct 6, 2016)

Taco*mom said:


> Hi Sidney, how's your tort? I hope he's doing better. Sorry I am not much of any help. Welcome to the forum by the way. Just realized I never get to say that to you.


hi @Taco*mom 
thanks for the concern. i'm not sure if my tortoise is getting better or what. where what i did and observed.
before that, here's a look of the indoor set up.



i know. the lack of substrate might be irritating, but if i'm not reading the hygrometer wrongly, even set up like this can get humidity up to 89%. am i reading the right thing? 

5th OCT 
7.00 pm: put tortoise into indoor set up. added shredded paper for tortoise to snuggle and hide. 
9.00 pm: tortoise sleeping soundly.

6th OCT
5.30 am: wake up. put two pieces of 'sawi' probably called mustard green, into the container. tortoise wake up, walk near the vege, smelled a bit and then starts biting. after a few bites, i remembered i need to soak him before going to work. so i put him for a nice soak and i do my things for about 30 minutes. 
6.00 am: returned the tortoise into the container. he starts eating the vege again. not much. about a piece at most. 
7.30 am. placed tortoise into cardboard habitat. (didn't took picture) pretty much the same as the one i posted earlier. the only difference is the land now is covered with cardboard rather than direct concrete. the habitat is outdoor under a roof. direct sunshine will hit the habitat about 2 pm onwards. pretty hot. temperature can reach up to 50c without shade. 45c under roof's shade. 40c under hide's under roof's shade. (not sure if u guys can understand what im writing here. lol) though under such temperature, the humidity can remain about 70% if im reading my device correctly. 
4.30 pm: return home from work, check on my tortoise. he was sitting next to the broken vase i provide him as a hide with his eyes opened. i checked on his nose, no wet nose. a bit glad. i told myself not to celebrate so early. i put him to soak for another 30 minutes under the sun.(32c overall because its a rainy day and no rain during soaking)
5.00pm : check on tortoise, nose gets back to wet and little bubbles formed. dried it up using tissue paper and it comes back. gave a few hibiscus leaves and not even a bite. he gets back into his hide place and starts sleeping. 
6.00pm: i put him back into the indoor habitat with 'sawi' , hibiscus leaves and flower. he took a few bite, like 4 to 5 bites and then hide himself under the shredded papers to sleep until now. 

here's some of his pictures i took a few days ago days ago. 27 sept



who knows if u guys can spot anything abnormal or anything unusual since im a newbie here. knows absolutely nothing about tortoise until recently.


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## Sidniy (Oct 9, 2016)

hi guys, its been a while since i heard from you guys. so there's a question, do tortoises eats whenever we provide food or do they skip meals for a day or so occasionally? how active should they be? i did an observation to my tortoise, he likes to sleep or sits there doing nothing during day time. temperature is +-35c during daytime. mine usually eat about one and a half piece of leaves(mustard green) per meal and not more. last night, he kind of skipped dinner and this morning's breakfast. how often do they poop? in the beginning, the first month of owning him, he pooped almost everyday. now, his last poop was since Friday. which is 3 days ago. is that normal?


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## Fredkas (Oct 9, 2016)

I don't own a leopard tortoise, i own a sulcata. Although their diet is the same, but sulcata is well known for their hugh appetite. It should be the same in general that tort will eat everyday all day long when they feel they want it. The amount of food, i can't answer you.
And another thing, sulcata is well known for their activeness, i don't know with leopard,so can't answer it too. 
Poop usually is once a day when they are having soak, some every other day.

There was a research from tom, he was observing his babies, and found out that babies raise in indoor enclosure with 1 or 2 hours of outsime time daily tends to be healhier, having better appetite and having better growth. This is not absolute, however this can give us some idea that a huge majority (we are not saying 100% here) of babies is doing better in indoor enclosure with outdoor time 1 2 hours a day.
Another research by tom also, found out that ambient temp play a significant role too.

So, with those researches along with other knowledges from all the link above that already been given to you, i think your tort still doesn't really like his environment. My newbie guess is because it is too hot, or maybe he is still adapting or what.
Tortoise do not like change. However some tort is slower than others, as long as the environment is not making him sick, than you are half way for having healthy tort. Soaks is really important. Do it everyday. Add variety to his food. I think you should read more and find out what is wrong by yourself because there are always a tiny little details that you are missed and by reading, it will comes out to your mind, "ohh!! This is the problem!!" Sometimes it is how things work .


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## Sidniy (Oct 9, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> I don't own a leopard tortoise, i own a sulcata. Although their diet is the same, but sulcata is well known for their hugh appetite. It should be the same in general that tort will eat everyday all day long when they feel they want it. The amount of food, i can't answer you.
> And another thing, sulcata is well known for their activeness, i don't know with leopard,so can't answer it too.
> Poop usually is once a day when they are having soak, some every other day.
> 
> ...


Thanks for he advice. still figuring out whats the problem. for the last few days since the bubbly nose problem, i started to soak 3 times a day. with warm water. tried giving variety of food but he's very choosy. only eats 'sawi' or a few bites of 'kailan'. i tried giving hibiscus leaves, he takes a bite and then goes away. as for lettuce, a few sniff and then goes away. i wonder whats went wrong. will continue to do research. still has bubbly nose but not as often. usually comes out after soak. maybe that's a good sign? not sure. so so inexperience in this.


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## Fredkas (Oct 9, 2016)

Bubbly nose after soaks is quiet normal, because he is wet. It is not normal if the bubble too big lol.


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## Sidniy (Oct 9, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> Bubbly nose after soaks is quiet normal, because he is wet. It is not normal if the bubble too big lol.


the bubble seems not normal to me, it's not big though. it feels like human runny nose consistency, not very watery but not thick. its clear. the wetness on his nose can last a few minutes even after i dried it with dry tissue paper. there may not be bubble but there's definitely wetness. the wetness then will dries up.


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## Sidniy (Oct 14, 2016)

Hi guys, a bit of advice here needed. My Tortoise finally made a poop after so many days of not pooping. Not sure Constipation or just lack of food consumption. 

So I brought the poop for fecal exam and the Dr saw 'something' was actually moving and suggested me to give my tort fenbendazole. 

So I went to another vet to buy the dewormer since the 1st vet doesn't sell those. I told the 2nd vet about my Tortoise having runny nose and loss appetite, immediately she suggests giving my Tortoise a jab. 

So should I give the vet a try? It seems hard to feed my Tortoise the med bcz lack of appetite and I'm guessing the med doesn't smell good. How do I feed it?


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## JoesMum (Oct 15, 2016)

When it comes to get oral meds down a tortoise, you do what you have to do. If that means mixing it with forbidden food like strawberry then you do it!

What jab did the 2nd vet want to give? Antibiotics? Vitamins?


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## Sidniy (Oct 16, 2016)

@JoesMum is there any picture tutorial on feeding Fenbendazole? Mine comes in liquid form. I tried cutting 2 slices of strawberry and put a drop of the med in between as a sandwich. Somehow it squeezes out the med and my tort won't eat it. 

I'm so doubtful of the 2nd vet. I think she's trying to give antibiotic. She haven't seen my Tortoise yet. I only told her the symptoms and she suggested a jab. So I guess it's antibiotic.


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## JoesMum (Oct 16, 2016)

This suggestion might work for you
http://tortaddiction.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/de-worming-torts.html?m=1

http://russiantortoisepictures.com/forum/index.php?topic=1839.5;wap2

Also a pellet of mazuri (if you can get it) would absorb the liquid.


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## Lyn W (Oct 16, 2016)

Hi I haven't had chance to read all your posts about your baby yet but hope your tort is doing better.
Is that his usual enclosure or just a temporary home while he is ill?
He could have been eating the shredded paper and do you also have a uvb source for him?
Apologies if I'm mistaken, but that just looks like a ceramic heat emitter which only gives heat, obviously he needs to be kept warm but when indoors, uvb is essential for absorption of minerals etc. I use a mvb by day and a che at night.
I'm sure I've read that the widely used antibiotic baytril isn't good with leopards in case the vet suggests it, but do a search to find out more about that. I wish him I'm good luck and hope he s better soon @Tom and @Yvonne or @Team Gomberg may be able to help regards the meds.


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## Sidniy (Oct 16, 2016)

hi @Lyn W thanks for your concern. the blue plastic container is only used during the night time. for day time he gets plenty of sunlight and there's one time i think he's over heated because even under the shades the temperature rises as high as 45c. without shades, the temperature can goes as high as 50c plus. i think that's how he gets his bubbly nose. heat stroke perhaps? now, during the day time, he's housed under the roof behind my house, it's less heat. around 31c to 35c. he will gets his sunlight around 2 or 3 pm onward until 5 pm. he still walks around if i wakes him up. also, he seems to starts eating the grass i grow for him.

the only problems that's bothering me is
1) his appetite seems up and down,
2) not sure how to deworm him,
3) and the worst of all, his bubbly nose.

as for the shredded paper, i guess he never eats it. i did wonder about that as well previously. so i did check for any bite marks on the papers and there's none. well, of course that method wasn't 100% sure. other than that, whenever i put him back to this plastic container, immediately he finds a nice spot and starts to sleep until the next morning. still the same spot. around 7pm to 5am. other than that, he's a very choosy eater or should i say, low appetite? i tried feeding him hibiscus leaves and flowers, he won't eat it. feed him opuntia pad, a few bites. lettuce, barely eats it. like i said, his appetite is a roller coaster ride. can't really predicts it. so based on these 3 observations, i guess he didn't ate any shredded paper. 

please don't get mad at me for making such stupid assumptions. hehehe...


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## JoesMum (Oct 16, 2016)

The bubbly nose is very unlikely to go away without antibiotics (injections from a suitably qualified herp vet) and is probably the most urgent problem.


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## Sidniy (Oct 16, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> The bubbly nose is very unlikely to go away without antibiotics (injections from a suitably qualified herp vet) and is probably the most urgent problem.


oh meaning that i need to get my tort to get injected no matter how? i thought it would just go away just by his own antibody. i worry it would only gets worse after injection. things like side effects or so. btw, what's a herp vet? i think we only have general vet here. no specializations.


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## Sidniy (Oct 16, 2016)

anyone tried using antibiotic drops into nasal chamber? I read at http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/commondisease.html it suggest giving nasal drop. any feedbacks or review? Since mine is a leopard tortoise , it says there they might react by vomiting and frothing at nose and mouth. A bit worried though.


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## JoesMum (Oct 16, 2016)

By a herp vet, I mean one who knows about tortoises. 

Here in the UK antibiotics are only available on prescription* (both for humans and animals) so we can only administer them under medical supervision. I have never seen them administered other than by injection. As a tort's nose connects to its mouth - unlike a human - I guess it could work, but it sounds slow and difficult!

*This is because their free use is rendering them useless as the bugs become resistant to the drugs. So you only get them if you need them and then only get the antibiotic that is effective against the bug concerned.


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## Lyn W (Oct 17, 2016)

I have read somewhere on the forum that an antibiotic called Baytril is bad for leopards but you can search that and see what is said by others - just on case that's the one the vey wants to use.
If you think he has worms you will need to take a faecal sample to the vet for testing and if there are worms present in it they will prescribe treatment but it may not be a good idea to give at the same time as an antibiotic.


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## Sidniy (Oct 17, 2016)

Lyn W said:


> I have read somewhere on the forum that an antibiotic called Baytril is bad for leopards but you can search that and see what is said by others - just on case that's the one the vey wants to use.
> If you think he has worms you will need to take a faecal sample to the vet for testing and if there are worms present in it they will prescribe treatment but it may not be a good idea to give at the same time as an antibiotic.


thanks for the reminder. i just fed my tortoise fenbendazole. now im observing to see if there's any improvement within this one week. but that's only deworming. hopefully the bubbly nose is caused by the stress from the worm and goes away with the dead worms.


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## Sidniy (Oct 21, 2016)

hi guys, its been few days. finally, i've decided to give antibiotic a try this coming monday. since my vet here is not a herp vet so i need to do a bit of research here. there's few things in concern. anyone with tortoise jab experience may share your experiences as a reference.

all i know Baytril may cause allergic reaction to leopard tortoise

what other possible antibiotic that is suitable or i need to be aware of?
usually how many shots does it takes?
any possible initial reactions?
what is the normal duration for them to heal?


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## Fredkas (Oct 31, 2016)

How is your little leopard doing now?


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## Sidniy (Nov 1, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> How is your little leopard doing now?


hi @Fredkas , its been a while. yeah, well, i brought my baby for injection. the Dr did not told me the antibiotic she's using, even though i asked her. she just told me its antibiotic. cant blame her though, she's not herp vet. well, the bubble seems reduced, but it's still there. asked local breeder to visit their place for references, but they seem 'shy' to let me visit. so it's all up to me. some local 'forummer' suggest i should start with easier species such as sulcata. but what can i do? i'm now stuck with my poor baby. just try my best to give the best to him.


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## Fredkas (Nov 1, 2016)

Sidniy said:


> hi @Fredkas , its been a while. yeah, well, i brought my baby for injection. the Dr did not told me the antibiotic she's using, even though i asked her. she just told me its antibiotic. cant blame her though, she's not herp vet. well, the bubble seems reduced, but it's still there. asked local breeder to visit their place for references, but they seem 'shy' to let me visit. so it's all up to me. some local 'forummer' suggest i should start with easier species such as sulcata. but what can i do? i'm now stuck with my poor baby. just try my best to give the best to him.


Hopefully the little one recover soon.
It looks like there is a myth in both your country and mine about how sulcata is a hardy one. I think they all the same.


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## cmacusa3 (Nov 1, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> Hopefully the little one recover soon.
> It looks like there is a myth in both your country and mine about how sulcata is a hardy one. I think they all the same.



I raise both and agree both are the same.


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## Sidniy (Nov 2, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> Hopefully the little one recover soon.
> It looks like there is a myth in both your country and mine about how sulcata is a hardy one. I think they all the same.


i see. well, the bubble seems lessened. i can usually see it when he wakes up. other than that. rarely. not sure if its a sign of healing or what


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## Sidniy (Nov 3, 2016)

Guys, when should I really really worry about my tortoise? I mean, he's eating and eyes are clear. Sleeps most of the time, assuming that he's still a baby. The only problem is the bubbly nose. well the bubble is clear. But this morning, I saw his bubble was as big as his head. and when he saw me, he was a bit shocked and the bubble pops. It kinda sux not having a herp vet around.


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## Fredkas (Nov 3, 2016)

@Yvonne G should be able to help you. she is well experienced for years.

Btw as usual, please provide his environment temp day and night include the humidity as details as possible in several spot. this will help people help you. don't make assumsion, we need exact temp.
The best is you attach pic in one post all together with all the information to help others help you. this thread is too long for others that not following the thread from the first.
Keep it together in 1 post and you are helping them to help you.


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## Fredkas (Nov 14, 2016)

Update? @Sidniy


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## Sidniy (Nov 15, 2016)

oh hi, its been a while. now i changed him into indoor habitat. prolong under the sun seems hazardous even with shades and everything. now he's house indoor with exo terra solar glo. the spot directly under the light is 60C. the cooler end is 30C. even though its 60c, at least he can stay wherever he wants with suitable temperature. unlike under the sun, heat everywhere. 
substrate is top soil mixed with coconut coir. im not sure about substrate. it so messy. he walk all over the place, getting dirt onto his drinking bowl, and food. it's even on his face. And oh, few days before i house him indoor, he seemed to **** a lot. like 3 times a day. is that over hydrated? and i never seen him pass urates. from day 1. is that normal? as for the bubbly nose, it seems reduced. not sure if the soil went into the nose and soak the waterin the nose or really is healping out. 

sorry cz no pic yet. my phone under repair. will post pic once i got my phone back. probably next week according to the shop.

btw i made my habitat based on the hatchling husbandry i found certain website and youtube camp kenan tortoise baby care.


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## SarahChelonoidis (Nov 15, 2016)

I'm hoping you have your temperatures wrong. You're getting 60C (140F) at tortoise level in your basking spot? That is way too high. Raise your bulb up or replace it with a lower wattage bulb. Your tortoise won't be able to bask in those temperatures.


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## Sidniy (Nov 15, 2016)

yeah i know that too,but that's the maximum height i can get. well, i guess he's ok with that, but not sure. cz he never goes directly under it. he just stay at the border where the temperature is just right. just now i manage to get a pic from my tablet. no need to wait until next week. 



not sure if its alright. that bulb actually cost me a lot. it stated there at 4 inch height the temperature is 40C. but when measured, its 60C


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## SarahChelonoidis (Nov 15, 2016)

Four inches is way too close. If you can't raise it up higher, move your bin further away from the light (ie. Move it to the side), it's not ideal, but if you're actually getting 60C in the enclosure, you're creating dangerous conditions for your tortoise.


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## Sidniy (Nov 15, 2016)

SarahChelonoidis said:


> Four inches is way too close. If you can't raise it up higher, move your bin further away from the light (ie. Move it to the side), it's not ideal, but if you're actually getting 60C in the enclosure, you're creating dangerous conditions for your tortoise.



i see. i'll try to move the bin more to the side to see how it works. with the current set up, the darker ends has only about 30c. if it still too hot then i'll have to change the bulb back to ceramic heat emitter and gets his uvb from the sun.


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