# Things I Do



## Turtulas-Len (Nov 3, 2022)

This will be an ongoing thread about how I keep tortoises and some of the things I do differently than what is suggested here on TFO sometimes. And maybe be able to explain why and how. The first, I thought this of a couple years ago when Donald, one of my sulcatas was still living in a closed chamber. For some reason he started wanting to sleep out of his hide and would park under a che in the corner. The che was 17 inches above the substrate with the wattage reduced to lower it's heat output but it would still dry his shell out overnight. So when he settled into that corner I'd take a wet folded washcloth and lay over him. Then before I went to sleep I would lay another wet cloth on top of the first washcloth and in the morning the first cloth was still damp.


in the bottom pic the white object upper right is a temperature sending unit so I could keep track of the temp at that level. Doing this worked very well for Donald so I used it again for Thomas.


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 3, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> This will be an ongoing thread about how I keep tortoises and some of the things I do differently than what is suggested here on TFO sometimes. And maybe be able to explain why and how. The first, I thought this of a couple years ago when Donald, one of my sulcatas was still living in a closed chamber. For some reason he started wanting to sleep out of his hide and would park under a che in the corner. The che was 17 inches above the substrate with the wattage reduced to lower it's heat output but it would still dry his shell out overnight. So when he settled into that corner I'd take a wet folded washcloth and lay over him. Then before I went to sleep I would lay another wet cloth on top of the first washcloth and in the morning the first cloth was still damp.
> View attachment 351506
> View attachment 351507
> in the bottom pic the white object upper right is a temperature sending unit so I could keep track of the temp at that level. Doing this worked very well for Donald so I used it again for Thomas.


Man. That's a lot of dedication


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## DoubleD1996! (Nov 4, 2022)

Good idea


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## Yvonne G (Nov 4, 2022)

I worry that the evaporation process might act as a cooling effect on the shell?????


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 4, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> I worry that the evaporation process might act as a cooling effect on the shell?????


It's in a closed chamber with constant temperatures in the mid to low 80s throughout at the surface level. I don't do cool down temps at night for my youngsters. So no cooling effect.


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## Team Gomberg (Nov 4, 2022)

I like this. My leopard has 1 spot on his shell damaged from how he was parked under the CHE. Glad you shared this tip.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 4, 2022)

Bottom heat is somewhat controversial here on TFO but I couldn't do what I do with my tortoises without using it. I use bottom heat from hatchling to adult size. I don't use thermostats I use rheostats so I can keep the temperature constant. With a thermostat the heat is either rising or lowering to maintain the temperature you have it set to, even in an indoor setting where there isn't a great change in the ambient temperature surrounding the enclosure. To set it up right I use

these 3 things. A kill a watt to see how much electricity I'm sending to the heat source. After getting it to the right wattage for the temperature I'm looking for I can record it for future use if needed. A lamp dimmer or another type of rheostat is used to adjust the wattage either up or down to get the correct temperature. And the temp gun is to read the temperatures. I also use these to set above heat sources. I've noticed here on TFO people are raising and lowering their basking lights and CHEs. Using the lamp dimmer this wouldn't be necessary after securing either the light or che safely just adjust it down to the temperature you are looking for. The lamp dimmers I use are rated to 300 watts. Doing the heat setup correct takes some time but once you get it no other adjustment should be necessary. I have 3 heat sources in Walkers house a heat mat, a electric oil filled radiator and a 150 watt CHE. The mat and the heater are at the same settings they have been for years. I sometimes adjust the che wattage to increase his temps slightly.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 5, 2022)

I see no reason to continue this thread. I was going to try to explain what percentage of floor space is heated with bottom heat in each enclosure and the outside house's. The spacing apart of the different heaters and how each of the different heat sources effect the other heaters. But see no reason for continuing.


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## TammyJ (Nov 6, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> I see no reason to continue this thread. I was going to try to explain what percentage of floor space is heated with bottom heat in each enclosure and the outside house's. The spacing apart of the different heaters and how each of the different heat sources effect the other heaters. But see no reason for continuing.


I don't get why the sudden rather puzzling first and last remarks?! Why? What am I missing?


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## TammyJ (Nov 6, 2022)

TammyJ said:


> I don't get why the sudden rather puzzling first and last remarks?! Why? What am I missing?


Tammy. Why are you so dumb?


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## Tim Carlisle (Nov 6, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> This will be an ongoing thread about how I keep tortoises and some of the things I do differently than what is suggested here on TFO sometimes. And maybe be able to explain why and how. The first, I thought this of a couple years ago when Donald, one of my sulcatas was still living in a closed chamber. For some reason he started wanting to sleep out of his hide and would park under a che in the corner. The che was 17 inches above the substrate with the wattage reduced to lower it's heat output but it would still dry his shell out overnight. So when he settled into that corner I'd take a wet folded washcloth and lay over him. Then before I went to sleep I would lay another wet cloth on top of the first washcloth and in the morning the first cloth was still damp.
> View attachment 351506
> View attachment 351507
> in the bottom pic the white object upper right is a temperature sending unit so I could keep track of the temp at that level. Doing this worked very well for Donald so I used it again for Thomas.


I do the wet washcloth approach with mine as well. In my case I use an old hand towel. I only keep it on for a couple or few hours at night though, maybe twice per week. How long / often do you do yours?


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## Yvonne G (Nov 6, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> I see no reason to continue this thread. I was going to try to explain what percentage of floor space is heated with bottom heat in each enclosure and the outside house's. The spacing apart of the different heaters and how each of the different heat sources effect the other heaters. But see no reason for continuing.


What? I was looking forward to your take on keeping the tortoises outside all the time. We can all benefit from your ideas. I don't understand what happened?????


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 6, 2022)

Tim Carlisle said:


> I do the wet washcloth approach with mine as well. In my case I use an old hand towel. I only keep it on for a couple or few hours at night though, maybe twice per week. How long / often do you do yours?


I only did the washcloth thing when they were young and only when they decided to park in the corner right below a che for the night. A few nights before I thought about using a wet cloth I would put Donald in his hide and he stayed in the rest of the night. I left the wet cloth on them all night long and didn't remove it until they started moving around the next morning.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 6, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> What? I was looking forward to your take on keeping the tortoises outside all the time. We can all benefit from your ideas. I don't understand what happened?????


That post about using bottom heat was up for over 24 hours and not one response so I figured talking about bottom heat is taboo and not wanted here. So I'll just let go.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 6, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> That post about using bottom heat was up for over 24 hours and not one response so I figured talking about bottom heat is taboo and not wanted here. So I'll just let go.


Many of us use the Kane and Stanfield pig pads. It would be beneficial for folks to know where, when and how to use them. For example, I never put them under small tortoises. They don't seem to realize they can walk away and off them if they get too hot.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 6, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> Many of us use the Kane and Stanfield pig pads. It would be beneficial for folks to know where, when and how to use them. For example, I never put them under small tortoises. They don't seem to realize they can walk away and off them if they get too hot.


The rheostats that Kane and Stanfield offer can only be turned down so far or off. I got one in the box with the mat I just received and checked it with my kill a watt and as low as it would go was 12.1 watts which under certain circumstances may be more wattage than needed and the mat may get hotter than you want. Using a lamp dimmer you can drop wattage down as low as needed to get a safe mat temperature.i use a hardback book laying on the mat to find the right temperature because it will absorb heat as close as anything else I could think of like a tortoise would. It takes some time to get a good reading. At least a couple to a few hours. Lift the book and read the temps of bottom of the book and the mat where the book was setting. For youngsters I like to set it around 80 degrees Fahrenheit. 80 degrees is safe even for hatchlings. The warmest part of the mat will be directly under the tortoise.


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## mark1 (Nov 6, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> That post about using bottom heat was up for over 24 hours and not one response so I figured talking about bottom heat is taboo and not wanted here. So I'll just let go.


i have nothing to add to this thread , but i was going to respond to bottom heat being controversial , but i figured i'd just keep it to myself ....... should be nothing controversial about bottom heat , in nature they use a variety of methods to regulate their body temps ..... the sun , the ground , a hot rock , asphalt road , water a black surface , i don't believe it's even a question as to whether they use bottom heat or not naturally .... personally i do kinda think they can see/detect heat , hot surfaces , it sure appears that way with what i'm seeing ....


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## Tom (Nov 6, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> That post about using bottom heat was up for over 24 hours and not one response so I figured talking about bottom heat is taboo and not wanted here. So I'll just let go.


I had not seen it yet Len. You do a lot of unconventional things and they work for you. My reason for requesting the thread was so that we could all understand all the details behind what you are doing, or not doing, and learn from it.

Your tortoises looks amazing, and exude good health. It could be disastrous for someone to see what amazing results you produce, and then to read that you use bottom heat, but not read all these important details, and they just went to the reptile store and bought a stick on heat mat in an effort to copy your way of doing it. The simple sentence: "I use bottom heat." could really cause some problems for people. Reading the above paragraph in post #16 with all the details explained is a whole different animal than the one simple sentence, and those details make the difference between your success and someone else's disaster.

You think outside the box, but you are also smart and experienced enough to pay attention to what you are doing, see the effects, and make immediate adjustments as needed. You innovate. We can all learn from your experience, but without the details, costly mistakes will be made. A brand new tortoise keeper will not understand much of what your are doing and why, and them trying to emulate you without the benefit of these important details is likely to fail.

I love it when people do unconventional things that work. I learn from it. This is how tortoise knowledge advances. You've been around TFO as long as I have. Do you remember all the hell I caught when I came around saying to soak sulcatas daily and keep them humid? I knew I was right, and so I persisted, and look at the whole world now. You are also right in what you know and what you have first hand experience with, and I request the you also persist. Neither you nor I are going to live forever. Better that our hard earned knowledge be passed down to help and inspire youngsters that are smarter and more motivated than you or I. Please keep going with this thread. None of us knows everything, and you've got some valuable puzzle pieces swimming around in that head of yours. It would be a shame not to share what you've figured out.


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## Team Gomberg (Nov 6, 2022)

another vote for you to continue! 

I read your thread but waited for more before commenting. I supply belly heat for my ball python using the same items you pictured above and was excited to see if we use it similarly. 

Keep it going


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 6, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> Many of us use the Kane and Stanfield pig pads. It would be beneficial for folks to know where, when and how to use them. For example, I never put them under small tortoises. They don't seem to realize they can walk away and off them if they get too hot.


I came back to this because I didn't give my thoughts on the placement of a heat mat. Specifically in a heated house. Some of you may remember when I won the photo contest that Osbourne Industries had and the prize was a corner Stanfield mat. I used it in a house that the 3 adult females used. Being in a corner I wondered if they used it to heat up or were setting on it just because it was in the corner. Most sulcatas will bed down in one of the corners just because it's a corner. Anyway I don't place heat mats in a corner and I no longer have that corner mat. I gave it away. Now if my sulcatas are setting on the mat I know they chose to be there.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 6, 2022)

Here's what I'm working on now,

It's been so warm, (hit 80 today) can't really get a good setting on each individual heat source. It's a new house for Thomas. Still have a lot to do with adjusting the heat source's. After getting everything set right I will straighten the wires. To heat this house I'm using 2 brooder heaters from Tractor Supply that max out at 200 watts each a 18x24 Stanfield heat mat that maxes out around 90 watts if I remember correctly and a 150 watt CHE. Each one is running through a lamp dimmer to adjust their heat output. I've never did a setup like this before so just in case I have an oil filled electric radiator heater on standby if needed. I know that the mat and the 2 brooders take more time to heat up, that's the reason for the CHE to bring the temperature up more quickly in case of an emergency. I've already tested that part and it worked fine. The control for the CHE is on the outside of the house all others are inside.

I'm putting vinyl siding on this house just for cosmetics.


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## wellington (Nov 7, 2022)

Hard to tell by the pic but is the CHE above the geat mat? Do all your heat mats have a CHE or other heating above them? 
I always thought that using a heat mat was fine as long as heat is above it too. Keeping the tort from laying on the mat all day waiting for its carapace to warm which basically never will.


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## wellington (Nov 7, 2022)

The dimmers. They can be used on che, heat mats and basking bulbs, oil filled radiators right?
Not floursecnt or mvb? 
I will be telling all those people that can't adjust/move their heat up to use the dimmer. Great ideal. 
I used rheostat when my tort was a hatchling and for a few lizards. Not sure why I don't use them now. I thought they worked the same as a thermostat anyway but read humidity where a thermostat doesn't usually.


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## wellington (Nov 7, 2022)

What rheostat do you use?


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## Tom (Nov 7, 2022)

wellington said:


> I thought they worked the same as a thermostat anyway but read humidity where a thermostat doesn't usually.


I'm reading some confusion here...
1. A thermostat turns power 100% on when the temperature drops below the set point, and 100% off when temperature rises above the set point. There is a more expensive type of thermostat called a "digital proportional thermostat" that can give more or less power depending on how far from the set point the temperature is. This specialized type maintains a more consistent and generally more accurate temperature, and this is what we typically use for home made incubators.
2. A rheostat manually adjusts the voltage going to an electrical device or light bulb. There is no automation. You simply dial the power up or down, and it remains set at that amount. The user must adjust it as needed to get the desired temperatures. This is a great way to dial in the basking temperature under an incandescent flood bulb if the light fixture cannot be moved up or down.
3. Neither of these devices have anything to do with humidity. Humidity would be read by a hygrometer. There are devices that read humidity, and can send power to a fogger or mister if humidity drops below the set point, but these are not related to thermostats or rheostats.


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## wellington (Nov 7, 2022)

Tom said:


> I'm reading some confusion here...
> 1. A thermostat turns power 100% on when the temperature drops below the set point, and 100% off when temperature rises above the set point. There is a more expensive type of thermostat called a "digital proportional thermostat" that can give more or less power depending on how far from the set point the temperature is. This specialized type maintains a more consistent and generally more accurate temperature, and this is what we typically use for home made incubators.
> 2. A rheostat manually adjusts the voltage going to an electrical device or light bulb. There is no automation. You simply dial the power up or down, and it remains set at that amount. The user must adjust it as needed to get the desired temperatures. This is a great way to dial in the basking temperature under an incandescent flood bulb if the light fixture cannot be moved up or down.
> 3. Neither of these devices have anything to do with humidity. Humidity would be read by a hygrometer. There are devices that read humidity, and can send power to a fogger or mister if humidity drops below the set point, but these are not related to thermostats or rheostats.


I haven't used a rheostat in a long time but I thought the one I did have, had two probes and one was for humidity?


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 7, 2022)

wellington said:


> Hard to tell by the pic but is the CHE above the geat mat? Do all your heat mats have a CHE or other heating above them?
> I always thought that using a heat mat was fine as long as heat is above it too. Keeping the tort from laying on the mat all day waiting for its carapace to warm which basically never will.


No it's not directly above mat it's just off it towards the door. The CHE won't be on all the time it's not a main heat source. The 2 brooder heaters and the mat are. I space the heaters apart to help heat the whole house. I hang wireless temp sending units at different hight elevations to get true temperature readings. This is the brooder heater hanging on the wall opposite of the mat near the door opening.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 7, 2022)

wellington said:


> The dimmers. They can be used on che, heat mats and basking bulbs, oil filled radiators right?
> Not floursecnt or mvb?
> I will be telling all those people that can't adjust/move their heat up to use the dimmer. Great ideal.
> I used rheostat when my tort was a hatchling and for a few lizards. Not sure why I don't use them now. I thought they worked the same as a thermostat anyway but read humidity where a thermostat doesn't usually.


Not on oil filled radiator heaters.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 7, 2022)

wellington said:


> What rheostat do you use?


I use lamp dimmers that are rated to handle up to 300 watts.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 7, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> I use lamp dimmers that are rated to handle up to 300 watts.


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## Tom (Nov 7, 2022)

wellington said:


> I haven't used a rheostat in a long time but I thought the one I did have, had two probes and one was for humidity?


Rheostats don't have probes. They don't monitor anything. Rheostats only give us direct manual control over how much power goes to a given device. Its just a dial or a sliding switch, like the one Len has pictured here. You can turn it all the way up to full power, or all the way down to zero power, or anywhere in-between for a given application.

Here is another way to word it: A normal on/off switch, like a light switch in our houses for example, either gives full power when on, or zero power when off. A rheostat is a type of "switch" that allows you to control precisely how much power goes to the device. When you turn that dial, you have the ability to go anywhere from 0% of the available electrical power to 100% of the available power, or anywhere in-between.

Does that make sense?


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## Yvonne G (Nov 7, 2022)

Tom said:


> Rheostats don't have probes. They don't monitor anything. Rheostats only give us direct manual control over how much power goes to a given device. Its just a dial or a sliding switch, like the one Len has pictured here. You can turn it all the way up to full power, or all the way down to zero power, or anywhere in-between for a given application.
> 
> Here is another way to word it: A normal on/off switch, like a light switch in our houses for example, either gives full power when on, or zero power when off. A rheostat is a type of "switch" that allows you to control precisely how much power goes to the device. When you turn that dial, you have the ability to go anywhere from 0% of the available electrical power to 100% of the available power, or anywhere in-between.
> 
> Does that make sense?


Or in other words, a dimmer switch!


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## Tom (Nov 7, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> Or in other words, a dimmer switch!


Yep. Your way of describing it is much simpler than mine.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 7, 2022)

I never looked at it that way, but now I understand better the "controller" (as it is called by the Stanfield people) for the Stanfield pig mat is a rheostat. I always start out on #5, but then I have to place my hand on the mat to feel how warm it is and dial it up or down accordingly. I would much rather it was a thermostat that I could tell it to heat up to 80F degrees, then trust it was going to do that.


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## Team Gomberg (Nov 7, 2022)

I've been using the same light dimmer switches you use on my snakes/lizards UTH for many years. I love how they work. It's neat to see that same method being used with tortoises. 

Perhaps, when Levi upgrades to a tortoise shed, I'll incorporate the under heat this same way.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 7, 2022)

So, Len. . . if I were to buy the dimmers would they replace the Stanfield controller? Then would I need to place the temperature sensor on the heat mat? Is this already explained above and I need to re-read it?


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 7, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> So, Len. . . if I were to buy the dimmers would they replace the Stanfield controller? Then would I need to place the temperature sensor on the heat mat? Is this already explained above and I need to re-read it?


There is no sensor on the dimmer. Think back to a few years ago when I sent you some plants I put a lamp dimmer and one of my small home made heated ceramic tiles in the box. So you could see how they work. Yes the dimmer does replace the Stanfield controller.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 7, 2022)

I've used and am using the tile, but I don't remember the dimmer. I plug the tile into a Reptitemp digital thermostat. But you're saying the thermostat turns the heat all the way on, then off once it reaches the set temperature. While the dimmer turns the heat on variable. So how do you know what temp you're getting? Don't mean to be so obtuse, just trying to understand.


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## wellington (Nov 7, 2022)

Tom said:


> Rheostats don't have probes. They don't monitor anything. Rheostats only give us direct manual control over how much power goes to a given device. Its just a dial or a sliding switch, like the one Len has pictured here. You can turn it all the way up to full power, or all the way down to zero power, or anywhere in-between for a given application.
> 
> Here is another way to word it: A normal on/off switch, like a light switch in our houses for example, either gives full power when on, or zero power when off. A rheostat is a type of "switch" that allows you to control precisely how much power goes to the device. When you turn that dial, you have the ability to go anywhere from 0% of the available electrical power to 100% of the available power, or anywhere in-between.
> 
> Does that make sense?


Yes and No. No cuz what the heck was I using lol. I'm guessing it must have been a thermostat that also read humidity. I always thought it was a rheostat. But yes I do get it what a rheostat does now, specially with Yvonnes simple answer.


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## wellington (Nov 7, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> I use lamp dimmers that are rated to handle up to 300 watts.


Okay you use the dimmer in place of the rheostat. Thanks.


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## wellington (Nov 7, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> Not on oil filled radiator heaters.


Yeah I see that now, the 300 watt would never work on the radiators. I think I got it all straight now. Thanks.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 7, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> I've used and am using the tile, but I don't remember the dimmer. I plug the tile into a Reptitemp digital thermostat. But you're saying the thermostat turns the heat all the way on, then off once it reaches the set temperature. While the dimmer turns the heat on variable. So how do you know what temp you're getting? Don't mean to be so obtuse, just trying to understand.


I use a temp gun to read it's temperature.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 7, 2022)

wellington said:


> Okay you use the dimmer in place of the rheostat. Thanks.


The dimmer is a rheostat. A year ago they cost $11 on Amazon the ones I recently bought for Thomas's new house cost $17. The Ace hardware store in town here are careering them now for $19.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 7, 2022)

wellington said:


> Okay you use the dimmer in place of the rheostat. Thanks.


Yes, but how do you know when it's set in the right place?


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## Tom (Nov 7, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> Yes, but how do you know when it's set in the right place?


See post #42 above.


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## wellington (Nov 7, 2022)

Tom said:


> See post #42 above.


Okay, pretend I have my che on a dimmer/rheo. The temp reaches what I want. Now how do I know how much to turn the dimmer back so it stays at that temp?
@Turtulas-Len


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## Yvonne G (Nov 7, 2022)

wellington said:


> Okay, pretend I have my che on a dimmer/rheo. The temp reaches what I want. Now how do I know how much to turn the dimmer back so it stays at that temp


Exactly! That's what I've been trying to figure


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 7, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> Exactly! That's what I've been trying to figure


A Kill-a-Watt, which is a wattage meter tells you how many watts is getting to the heat source whatever it is you are running. They make it so much easier to get the heat setting you want. Let's say you are using a che to heat a piece of slate. You want the slate to be 90 degrees. Turn the che on let it heat up having the kaw plugged in and the dimmer plugged


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## Tom (Nov 7, 2022)

wellington said:


> Okay, pretend I have my che on a dimmer/rheo. The temp reaches what I want. Now how do I know how much to turn the dimmer back so it stays at that temp?
> @Turtulas-Len


Monitor it for a few hours and a few days. Let it stabilize and also pay attention to room temps and fluctuations. Adjust as needed.

These questions illustrate so much. This stuff works for Len and he gets top notch results from his methods. I want to learn the details and see how I can improve what I am doing and what I can learn from him. But are new keepers going to be able to pull off what someone of Len's ability can pull off? I don't know the answer. If you two experienced tortoise keepers are having trouble understanding how to use these items, how hard will it be for a new keeper to figure out? That part concerns me, though I want to learn more about it all.


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## Tom (Nov 7, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> A Kill-a-Watt, which is a wattage meter tells you how many watts is getting to the heat source whatever it is you are running. They make it so much easier to get the heat setting you want. Let's say you are using a che to heat a piece of slate. You want the slate to be 90 degrees. Turn the che on let it heat up having the kaw plugged in and the dimmer plugged


Yes... go on...


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## wellington (Nov 7, 2022)

Tom said:


> Monitor it for a few hours and a few days. Let it stabilize and also pay attention to room temps and fluctuations. Adjust as needed.
> 
> These questions illustrate so much. This stuff works for Len and he gets top notch results from his methods. I want to learn the details and see how I can improve what I am doing and what I can learn from him. But are new keepers going to be able to pull off what someone of Len's ability can pull off? I don't know the answer. If you two experienced tortoise keepers are having trouble understanding how to use these items, how hard will it be for a new keeper to figure out? That part concerns me, though I want to learn more about it all.


Okay, so its guessing how much to turn back and then wait a couple days or so while checking temps the whole time? On a light bulb, the bulb will dim. So I'm guessing a bulb is easier to get adjusted. If it gets to dim, it's likely going to be too dim to keep it warm enough. 

To your concern about newbies. If they don't know what a rheostat is, they likely won't use it. A dimmer they may use, but it's easier for a tortoise less set up then I think it would be for a set up that already has a tortoise in it. Len probably has it down with accurate guessing. The rest of us would have to do it a few times to get it right.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 7, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> A Kill-a-Watt, which is a wattage meter tells you how many watts is getting to the heat source whatever it is you are running. They make it so much easier to get the heat setting you want. Let's say you are using a che to heat a piece of slate. You want the slate to be 90 degrees. Turn the che on let it heat up having the kaw plugged in and the dimmer plugged


I accidentally touched the post button..... Into the kaw and the heater plugged into the dimmer and after a while and it's warmer you wanted. Check the wattage and lower the wattage using the dimmer. And if it's still hotter than wanted lower the wattage a little more, if the temp dropped more than you wanted raise the wattage used and check it again until you get the temp you want. Watching the wattage helps to find the right setting and once set it should stay at that temperature. A temp gun is needed to do this and the kill a watt makes it easier but not necessary. Sorry for the delay in finishing this post things got a little busy for a few minutes.


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## Tom (Nov 7, 2022)

wellington said:


> Okay, so its guessing how much to turn back and then wait a couple days or so while checking temps the whole time? On a light bulb, the bulb will dim. So I'm guessing a bulb is easier to get adjusted. If it gets to dim, it's likely going to be too dim to keep it warm enough.
> 
> To your concern about newbies. If they don't know what a rheostat is, they likely won't use it. A dimmer they may use, but it's easier for a tortoise less set up then I think it would be for a set up that already has a tortoise in it. Len probably has it down with accurate guessing. The rest of us would have to do it a few times to get it right.


Dimmer = rheostat.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 7, 2022)

wellington said:


> Okay, pretend I have my che on a dimmer/rheo. The temp reaches what I want. Now how do I know how much to turn the dimmer back so it stays at that temp?
> @Turtulas-Len


With a che I use a wireless thermometer hanging just above the surface to read the temp. If temp starts rising above what I want I reduced the wattage and the temp reading only takes a few minutes to change. If the sending unit is laying down on the surface it will take longer to cool down. Once you get close and are looking to get an exact surface temp then lay the sending unit down and adjust from there.


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## wellington (Nov 7, 2022)

Tom said:


> Dimmer = rheostat.


Yes I got that. But calling it a rheostat a lot of people won't know what it is. Everyone I think knows what a dimmer is.


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## wellington (Nov 7, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> With a che I use a wireless thermometer hanging just above the surface to read the temp. If temp starts rising above what I want I reduced the wattage and the temp reading only takes a few minutes to change. If the sending unit is laying down on the surface it will take longer to cool down. Once you get close and are looking to get an exact surface temp then lay the sending unit down and adjust from there.


Okay great. That sounds much easier.


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## Cathie G (Nov 7, 2022)

wellington said:


> Okay, so its guessing how much to turn back and then wait a couple days or so while checking temps the whole time? On a light bulb, the bulb will dim. So I'm guessing a bulb is easier to get adjusted. If it gets to dim, it's likely going to be too dim to keep it warm enough.
> 
> To your concern about newbies. If they don't know what a rheostat is, they likely won't use it. A dimmer they may use, but it's easier for a tortoise less set up then I think it would be for a set up that already has a tortoise in it. Len probably has it down with accurate guessing. The rest of us would have to do it a few times to get it right.


I personally as a newbie love to read the discussions on here just to learn whether I believe it or not.. There actually are so many intelligent people here on TFO. That includes really intelligent young people that cheered me up and steered me in the right direction. You are right  we need discussion


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## wellington (Nov 7, 2022)

Cathie G said:


> I personally as a newbie love to read the discussions on here just to learn whether I believe it or not.. There actually are so many intelligent people here on TFO. That includes really intelligent young people that cheered me up and steered me in the right direction. You are right  we need discussion


I hope they do read as much as they can. Sadely I don't think many do. They just ask before searching. I get it, I did too way back when. I had never been on a forum though so didnt know how they worked. This thread discussion taught me I didn't have a rheostat way back when and if I ever do get one, or a dimmer for my torts, I will know how to use it lol.
So I hope Len keeps adding to it.


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## Cathie G (Nov 7, 2022)

wellington said:


> I hope they do read as much as they can. Sadely I don't think many do. They just ask before searching. I get it, I did too way back when. I had never been on a forum though so didnt know how they worked. This thread discussion taught me I didn't have a rheostat way back when and if I ever do get one, or a dimmer for my torts, I will know how to use it lol.
> So I hope Len keeps adding to it.


I hope so too. I probably won't remember all of it but I'm sure the thread will still be here to refresh my memory.


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## ryan57 (Nov 7, 2022)

Tom said:


> I had not seen it yet Len. You do a lot of unconventional things and they work for you. My reason for requesting the thread was so that we could all understand all the details behind what you are doing, or not doing, and learn from it.
> 
> Your tortoises looks amazing, and exude good health. It could be disastrous for someone to see what amazing results you produce, and then to read that you use bottom heat, but not read all these important details, and they just went to the reptile store and bought a stick on heat mat in an effort to copy your way of doing it. The simple sentence: "I use bottom heat." could really cause some problems for people. Reading the above paragraph in post #16 with all the details explained is a whole different animal than the one simple sentence, and those details make the difference between your success and someone else's disaster.
> 
> ...


Is there a portion of this site dedicated/required for beginning tortoise keepers joining the forum that includes explicit instructions with dimensioned photos/graphics of what to buy and where to place the items in a suitable habitat? In my short time here it seems that the same questions are asked weekly and if there were instructions provided you would eliminate 90% of the dialogue except for more advanced topics that require specific expertise.

This would complete the documentation required for valuable information to survive this forum. You surely wouldn't construct a building with just a conversation or the specification, you would also need drawings.

The establishment of a clear "approved" tortoise habitat baseline (at all price points) would also allow others the freedom to share unconventional things that work in their specific application and could not impact anything disastrously within that baseline.


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## ryan57 (Nov 7, 2022)

Power tip: If you add thermal mass above the mat (like a thicker rock) and a thermostat probe rather than a rheostat for control, then when the lights are on above they will heat the rock and you will not be using electric for the mat because it would be at temperature. It would only come on when the tortoise is on the rock/mat and blocking the light.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 7, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> I've used and am using the tile, but I don't remember the dimmer. I plug the tile into a Reptitemp digital thermostat. But you're saying the thermostat turns the heat all the way on, then off once it reaches the set temperature. While the dimmer turns the heat on variable. So how do you know what temp you're getting? Don't mean to be so obtuse, just trying to understand.


I went back and checked, I didn't send a dimmer because that tiles maximum temperature didn't get high enough to do any damage because of its low wattage use. Sorry to confuse you.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 7, 2022)

ryan57 said:


> Is there a portion of this site dedicated/required for beginning tortoise keepers joining the forum that includes explicit instructions with dimensioned photos/graphics of what to buy and where to place the items in a suitable habitat? In my short time here it seems that the same questions are asked weekly and if there were instructions provided you would eliminate 90% of the dialogue except for more advanced topics that require specific expertise.
> 
> This would complete the documentation required for valuable information to survive this forum. You surely wouldn't construct a building with just a conversation or the specification, you would also need drawings.
> 
> The establishment of a clear "approved" tortoise habitat baseline (at all price points) would also allow others the freedom to share unconventional things that work in their specific application and could not impact anything disastrously within that baseline.


Go to the first page where all the sub forums are listed and look for Frequently Asked Questions. Under that heading there's one titled something like "things I wish I knew before I got my tortoise." And besides this one there are lots of other interesting threads for a beginner.


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## Tom (Nov 7, 2022)

ryan57 said:


> Is there a portion of this site dedicated/required for beginning tortoise keepers joining the forum that includes explicit instructions with dimensioned photos/graphics of what to buy and where to place the items in a suitable habitat? In my short time here it seems that the same questions are asked weekly and if there were instructions provided you would eliminate 90% of the dialogue except for more advanced topics that require specific expertise.
> 
> This would complete the documentation required for valuable information to survive this forum. You surely wouldn't construct a building with just a conversation or the specification, you would also need drawings.
> 
> The establishment of a clear "approved" tortoise habitat baseline (at all price points) would also allow others the freedom to share unconventional things that work in their specific application and could not impact anything disastrously within that baseline.


This can't work. There are far too many variables. Every home and every enclosure is different. And the "market" is changing constantly as far as what products are offered and where to get them. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. All we can do is explain the basics, point people in the right direction, and then each person has to customize their own enclosure and make little tweaks here and there to get things just right.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 7, 2022)

When using any be type of bottom heat never never heat the entire floor surface. Always leave plenty of room for the tortoise to get off the heat and onto an unheated floor area. On the house I'm setting up for Thomas I already had a 2x3ft Stanfield mat that I bought for a litter of puppies to be born near the first of December last year when my floors are usually cold. The pups will be a year old on the 28th of November. I looked at the size of the new house and instead of using that mat I bought a smaller 18x24 inch mat to give Thomas more unheated floor space. When I get the heaters spaced probably and their temp output adjusted correctly he won't spend much time setting directly on the mat to stay warm.


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## Blackdog1714 (Nov 7, 2022)

This thread just highlights the lengths and $ keepers will go to care for their animals. Keep it up!


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## Team Gomberg (Nov 8, 2022)

Tom said:


> Monitor it for a few hours and a few days. Let it stabilize and also pay attention to room temps and fluctuations. Adjust as needed.


This is what I'm doing, right now. I just picked up a ball python last night (he was part of my show, rehomed last year when I closed the biz but they gave him back to me) and his UTH is plugged into a dimmer switch. Last night, I set his tank on the rack and plugged it all in. After an hour I temped the area with the laser temp gun. It was low 80s. I dialed the dimmer up slightly and temped again before bed. It was 91. This morning it was 96 and he wasn't in the hide so I dialed it back down a bit. I'll temp it again soon. Once I consistently get the readings where I want them, I'll know I have it dialed in. I'll cut it down to weekly temp checks at that point. Then, perhaps monthly check ins until our next weather shift. 

Also, I made little dots on my dimmer with a paint marker so I had a visual reference for dialing it up/down. 4 little dots are just enough to help me gauge if I'm adjusting it enough.


Tom said:


> If you two experienced tortoise keepers are having trouble understanding how to use these items, how hard will it be for a new keeper to figure out?


My thoughts, too. It's not hard, just perhaps a little more time consuming than a "set it and forget it" thermostat and takes a little bit of intuition on the keepers part.


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## Team Gomberg (Nov 8, 2022)

I have a kilowatt reader in my hubby's tool chest. Well, _he_ has a kilowatt reader in his tool chest that by marriage definition is mine if I want to use it!  I would never have thought to use that in this application.

Up until now, my future-tort-shed plans for Levi didn't include belly heat because I didn't like the idea of maximum temp on/off for on contact temperature maintenance. Even though I've used dimmers with UTH on lizards, geckos and snakes for year, I never thought about using it with a tortoise. Go figure?! 
Well, I now plan to incorporate it and being able to measure the wattage with a reader will help me dial it in much faster. 

Look at that @Turtulas-Len what you thought no one wanted to hear is helping me out  Thanks


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## wellington (Nov 8, 2022)

Team Gomberg said:


> This is what I'm doing, right now. I just picked up a ball python last night (he was part of my show, rehomed last year when I closed the biz but they gave him back to me) and his UTH is plugged into a dimmer switch. Last night, I set his tank on the rack and plugged it all in. After an hour I temped the area with the laser temp gun. It was low 80s. I dialed the dimmer up slightly and temped again before bed. It was 91. This morning it was 96 and he wasn't in the hide so I dialed it back down a bit. I'll temp it again soon. Once I consistently get the readings where I want them, I'll know I have it dialed in. I'll cut it down to weekly temp checks at that point. Then, perhaps monthly check ins until our next weather shift.
> 
> Also, I made little dots on my dimmer with a paint marker so I had a visual reference for dialing it up/down. 4 little dots are just enough to help me gauge if I'm adjusting it enough.
> 
> My thoughts, too. It's not hard, just perhaps a little more time consuming than a "set it and forget it" thermostat and takes a little bit of intuition on the keepers part.


I understand now how the dimmer works. What I don't understand 100% is why not just use a thermostat? For the most part it is a set it and forget it compared to the dimmer that is a set it and keep checking and keep setting until satisfied.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 8, 2022)

wellington said:


> I understand now how the dimmer works. What I don't understand 100% is why not just use a thermostat? For the most part it is a set it and forget it compared to the dimmer that is a set it and keep checking and keep setting until satisfied.


My reason is it's more cost efficient. I just went out and checked the wattage being used in 3 of my houses. It's taking 257 watts total for all 3 of them. Granted its not super cold out right now but we are going into the 40s later tonight, we never got out of the 50s today. If I used thermostats my electric cost would go up just because the way they work. With the setup I'm using 257 watts of usage will stay constant and the inside house temps will keep the tortoise's comfortable all night and tomorrow too. Thermostats work fine, I just prefer the constant temps and constant electric draw not the 100 % to zero % of on and off to hold a temperature. Just my opinion.


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## Cathie G (Nov 8, 2022)

ryan57 said:


> Is there a portion of this site dedicated/required for beginning tortoise keepers joining the forum that includes explicit instructions with dimensioned photos/graphics of what to buy and where to place the items in a suitable habitat? In my short time here it seems that the same questions are asked weekly and if there were instructions provided you would eliminate 90% of the dialogue except for more advanced topics that require specific expertise.
> 
> This would complete the documentation required for valuable information to survive this forum. You surely wouldn't construct a building with just a conversation or the specification, you would also need drawings.
> 
> The establishment of a clear "approved" tortoise habitat baseline (at all price points) would also allow others the freedom to share unconventional things that work in their specific application and could not impact anything disastrously within that baseline.


Hello. One of the things I like best here on TFO is all of the dialogue. There are threads that do all of that here but the discussion is everywhere on this site also. I don't know how to link the threads but they are not really hard to find. It just takes time to get to know the site. Many times while reading here I get reminded of something I need to do for my little tort. I'm always glad for the tip.
.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 8, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> My reason is it's more cost efficient. I just went out and checked the wattage being used in 3 of my houses. It's taking 257 watts total for all 3 of them. Granted its not super cold out right now but we are going into the 40s later tonight, we never got out of the 50s today. If I used thermostats my electric cost would go up just because the way they work. With the setup I'm using 257 watts of usage will stay constant and the inside house temps will keep the tortoise's comfortable all night and tomorrow too. Thermostats work fine, I just prefer the constant temps and constant electric draw not the 100 % to zero % of on and off to hold a temperature. Just my opinion.


After all, the title of the thread is, "Things I Do." Doesn't mean we have to do it too. But I'm likin' the ideas I'm learnin' here.


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## wellington (Nov 8, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> My reason is it's more cost efficient. I just went out and checked the wattage being used in 3 of my houses. It's taking 257 watts total for all 3 of them. Granted its not super cold out right now but we are going into the 40s later tonight, we never got out of the 50s today. If I used thermostats my electric cost would go up just because the way they work. With the setup I'm using 257 watts of usage will stay constant and the inside house temps will keep the tortoise's comfortable all night and tomorrow too. Thermostats work fine, I just prefer the constant temps and constant electric draw not the 100 % to zero % of on and off to hold a temperature. Just my opinion.


I see. I do like it being more cost efficient, that's always good. I also like the part you mentioned before about using a dimmer instead of having to move a basking light up or down to get accurate temps.


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## Tom (Nov 8, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> My reason is it's more cost efficient. I just went out and checked the wattage being used in 3 of my houses. It's taking 257 watts total for all 3 of them. Granted its not super cold out right now but we are going into the 40s later tonight, we never got out of the 50s today. If I used thermostats my electric cost would go up just because the way they work. With the setup I'm using 257 watts of usage will stay constant and the inside house temps will keep the tortoise's comfortable all night and tomorrow too. Thermostats work fine, I just prefer the constant temps and constant electric draw not the 100 % to zero % of on and off to hold a temperature. Just my opinion.


Thinking logically, it seems like it would be a wash as far as how much electricity either system would use. Sure the thermostat controlled device uses more power when "on", but it uses zero power when "off", while the rheostat is "on" 100% of the time, but at a lower power draw.

Have you done a side-by-side comparison? Or better yet, a comparison of the same heating device in the same night house with the two different systems at different times, but similar temperatures?

This is very interesting to me.


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## Team Gomberg (Nov 8, 2022)

wellington said:


> I understand now how the dimmer works. What I don't understand 100% is why not just use a thermostat? For the most part it is a set it and forget it compared to the dimmer that is a set it and keep checking and keep setting until satisfied.



Because in the case of my ball python, I want to have a 90F warm spot available for him at all times. He thermoregulates just like our tortoises do by moving on/off heat as needed. If the UTH is on a thermostat, it can heat up very quickly and create a hot spot, perhaps even burn him...but then it can also cool down when the thermostat kicks off and not be the warmth he wants, when he needs it. 

The dimmer switch on the UTH (under tank heater) maintains the exact temperature I want, when I want it- *at all times. *

I had a gecko rack set up with 4 tubs. Each tub had its own UTH and they were individually plugged into dimmers, too. I had to adjust them differently to make sure they were all the same temp. The top bins were the warmest, the lowest bin was the coolest. The top UTH dimmer switch was turned down significantly more than the bottom UTH dimmer switch but yet my pads were the exact same temp. Couldn't do that quite the same with a thermostat.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 9, 2022)

wellington said:


> I see. I do like it being more cost efficient, that's always good. I also like the part you mentioned before about using a dimmer instead of having to move a basking light up or down to get accurate temps.





Tom said:


> Thinking logically, it seems like it would be a wash as far as how much electricity either system would use. Sure the thermostat controlled device uses more power when "on", but it uses zero power when "off", while the rheostat is "on" 100% of the time, but at a lower power draw.
> 
> Have you done a side-by-side comparison? Or better yet, a comparison of the same heating device in the same night house with the two different systems at different times, but similar temperatures?
> 
> This is very interesting to me.


No I haven't done any tests. Why I think it would cost more for me is because of the type of heating I'm using. The mats and brooder heaters take a while to heat up but cool down rather quickly. In an earlier post I mentioned that the che in the new house wasn't a main heat source it will be used if for any reason I need to increase the temperature quicker than the others can do. If I were using the che and let's say a basking light for heat the cost would probably be the same with a thermostat or using a dimmer because they both produce heat almost instantly.


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## Tom (Nov 9, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> No I haven't done any tests. Why I think it would cost more for me is because of the type of heating I'm using. The mats and brooder heaters take a while to heat up but cool down rather quickly. In an earlier post I mentioned that the che in the new house wasn't a main heat source it will be used if for any reason I need to increase the temperature quicker than the others can do. If I were using the che and let's say a basking light for heat the cost would probably be the same with a thermostat or using a dimmer because they both produce heat almost instantly.


You've got my curiosity going. I have all the stuff to do the test, and now I'm wondering. I have a Kill-A-Watt EZ, and all the other stuff, so I can measure the actual electrical usage for a thermostat or a dimmer. I don't think it will change how anyone does things, but I am wondering which way uses more electricity now.


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## Markw84 (Nov 10, 2022)

Tom said:


> You've got my curiosity going. I have all the stuff to do the test, and now I'm wondering. I have a Kill-A-Watt EZ, and all the other stuff, so I can measure the actual electrical usage for a thermostat or a dimmer. I don't think it will change how anyone does things, but I am wondering which way uses more electricity now.


I'll bet you find the rheostat will use more electricity than the thermostat if all things are set properly. A constant on heat source dialed to a specific wattage will still draw that wattage even when the temperature rises to the desired minimum requirement. So will overheat a great deal of the time. Still nice for rising daytime temps, but still drawing energy even when you may reach a point over what is needed heat-wise. In a poorly insulated enclosure or night box that would be of more benefit as the desired overall temperature may not be reached as easily. But in a well-insulated enclosure/night box, there is a lot of time the thermostat will rarely have to turn on, while the rheostat controller is still drawing wattage. My Burmese Star night box for example set for 86° this time of year: overnight last night it dropped to 35°. This means I am needed to keep the night box 51° warmer than outside. Early this morning in the hours it was 35° my 600 watt heater turned on and ran for 16 minutes per hour. A month ago with overnight temps around 50° the thermostat turned on for 14 minutes every 115 minutes. And, during the day it did not turn on at all for almost 9 hours. During the summer I do leave it on, but it often only comes on twice for 13 -14 minutes during the night that drops to the low 60°s.

SO the colder part of the year when using the most energy my setup is using right at 600 watts for 1/4 hour or 150 watts per hour, to heat 50° above outside temps. To heat 20° above outside it uses about 70 watts per hour. AND... all of that drops as daytime temperatures rise. With a set rheostat it does not change over the course of a day.

I love this thread and the discussion. I do not believe the rheostat is better over a thermostat in a well designed enclosure or night box, though.

I do believe there is a place for floor heat with a rheostat, however. When trying to emulate ground temperatures in an environment where we have ground temperature substantially below what would be found in the natural habitat, using a matt or underfloor heating basically would be used to better approximate ground temperatures. Tortoises are designed to use ground temperatures to moderate their own temperatures. They use overhead (basking) heat to raise their body temperatures as desired. They don't "know" what sitting on ground too cold is! All their organs are towards the bottom of their bodies and the bulk of the top of the body is simply lungs. That is why they can burn the top of their carapace easily if given basking heat too hot while trying to heat their "core" which is at the bottom of their body - towards the plastron.

In trying to emulate ground temperature a rheostat would be the choice over a thermostat. We would want the ground a constant temperature - not to heat the tortoise or enclosure, but to create the desired "ground temperature" to prevent a tortoise from having to sit on ground colder than desired. This can be a big problem in many enclosures, especially if not well insulated.


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## ryan57 (Nov 10, 2022)

Mark, you are correct. "But in a well-insulated enclosure/night box, there is a lot of time the thermostat will rarely have to turn on, while the rheostat controller is still drawing wattage."

Yes, Rheostat will in fact use more electricity because the means of manipulating the load is resistance exactly like a potentiometer. No on and off cycles.

Thermostat is one long temperature dependent cycle of full on and full off.

Dimmers are many rapid cycles off on and off. About 100-120 times per second every time the wave crosses zero.
Yes. Dimmers are actually turning the lights on and off many times each second. That's how it works.

Now that dimmers (if lights are a heat source) are about 99% efficient requiring 1W for every 100W used, dimmers AND a thermostat are a good combo. The thermostat calls for on or off and the dimmer responds with only the intensity required to maintain temp. Add thermal mass as a heat "battery" and that's as efficient as it gets for electric. I'm a control system programmer so I have processors laying around to handle this for my reef tank, etc.

An idea for the ground taken from commercial grow houses: If covered by a greenhouse type of enclosure you take hot air, pump it into the ground via pipes under the greenhouse during the day to store the heat in an "earth battery" and then reverse the fan based on temp in the greenhouse over night. In a tortoise application, you could distribute heat through piping from any air or water source. That's what radiant heating is and totally applicable for heating an entire enclosure to a suitable ground temp.


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## Cathie G (Nov 10, 2022)

Markw84 said:


> I'll bet you find the rheostat will use more electricity than the thermostat if all things are set properly. A constant on heat source dialed to a specific wattage will still draw that wattage even when the temperature rises to the desired minimum requirement. So will overheat a great deal of the time. Still nice for rising daytime temps, but still drawing energy even when you may reach a point over what is needed heat-wise. In a poorly insulated enclosure or night box that would be of more benefit as the desired overall temperature may not be reached as easily. But in a well-insulated enclosure/night box, there is a lot of time the thermostat will rarely have to turn on, while the rheostat controller is still drawing wattage. My Burmese Star night box for example set for 86° this time of year: overnight last night it dropped to 35°. This means I am needed to keep the night box 51° warmer than outside. Early this morning in the hours it was 35° my 600 watt heater turned on and ran for 16 minutes per hour. A month ago with overnight temps around 50° the thermostat turned on for 14 minutes every 115 minutes. And, during the day it did not turn on at all for almost 9 hours. During the summer I do leave it on, but it often only comes on twice for 13 -14 minutes during the night that drops to the low 60°s.
> 
> SO the colder part of the year when using the most energy my setup is using right at 600 watts for 1/4 hour or 150 watts per hour, to heat 50° above outside temps. To heat 20° above outside it uses about 70 watts per hour. AND... all of that drops as daytime temperatures rise. With a set rheostat it does not change over the course of a day.
> 
> ...


Yes.


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## Tim Carlisle (Nov 10, 2022)

Just gotta say...I'm absolutely loving this thread!!!


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 10, 2022)

Markw84 said:


> I'll bet you find the rheostat will use more electricity than the thermostat if all things are set properly. A constant on heat source dialed to a specific wattage will still draw that wattage even when the temperature rises to the desired minimum requirement. So will overheat a great deal of the time. Still nice for rising daytime temps, but still drawing energy even when you may reach a point over what is needed heat-wise. In a poorly insulated enclosure or night box that would be of more benefit as the desired overall temperature may not be reached as easily. But in a well-insulated enclosure/night box, there is a lot of time the thermostat will rarely have to turn on, while the rheostat controller is still drawing wattage. My Burmese Star night box for example set for 86° this time of year: overnight last night it dropped to 35°. This means I am needed to keep the night box 51° warmer than outside. Early this morning in the hours it was 35° my 600 watt heater turned on and ran for 16 minutes per hour. A month ago with overnight temps around 50° the thermostat turned on for 14 minutes every 115 minutes. And, during the day it did not turn on at all for almost 9 hours. During the summer I do leave it on, but it often only comes on twice for 13 -14 minutes during the night that drops to the low 60°s.
> 
> SO the colder part of the year when using the most energy my setup is using right at 600 watts for 1/4 hour or 150 watts per hour, to heat 50° above outside temps. To heat 20° above outside it uses about 70 watts per hour. AND... all of that drops as daytime temperatures rise. With a set rheostat it does not change over the course of a day.
> 
> ...


Not sure I can explain my thoughts and reasoning that makes sense to you. Let's start with this, In the late 1970s I was working at a new LNG plant on the Chesapeake Bay out on the pier a mile from the shore line. Fishing was great So what we did was make a box out of the same insulation we were putting on the liquified natural gas lines and used it as an oven. Had an apprentice cooking fish using a 60 watt incandescent light bulb as the heat source. It worked great and cooked quick. With a well insulated house less wattage is needed to keep it warm. It does take time to get the correct settings because each heat source affects how the other heat sources produce heat. With the sulcatas I have living outside all year I like the slight day night temperature changes inside the house that aren't as drastic as what's happening temperature wise outside because of proper insulation which holds heat in longer.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 10, 2022)

ryan57 said:


> Mark, you are correct. "But in a well-insulated enclosure/night box, there is a lot of time the thermostat will rarely have to turn on, while the rheostat controller is still drawing wattage."
> 
> Yes, Rheostat will in fact use more electricity because the means of manipulating the load is resistance exactly like a potentiometer. No on and off cycles.
> 
> ...


Some of what you said is over my head. Is it like a LED bulb that blinks on and off can't remember the exact number but around a thousand times a second? About radiant floor heating I ran soft copper tubing throughout the floor of Walkers house just in case I needed more heat. The hardest part of that was mapping it out so I didn't run a screw thru the tubing while installing the floor.

Never needed it but it's there. I have a 4 gallon hot water heater a circulating pump and roll of high temperature water tubing setting in the garage still in it's original packaging since 2008. I even ran extra romex wiring through the walls just in case. 

This is where the tie in would be on the outside and there are several tie ins like this on the inside walls just in case. Tried to think of anything that may be needed later as I building in 2008.


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## Wpagey (Nov 11, 2022)

We live in SoCal, have an 80 lb 12 year old Sully, who lives outside with 4x4x2 nightbox using Tom’s design. Inside has heated floor mat and 40 watt rhp above. This is the first winter with this setup and I think we need more rhp heat. The thermostat probe is on the cold side of the box and reads 15-20 degrees over outside temperature at night. Since radiant heat is designed to heat the animal rather than the surrounding air, how do I know that the 80 degree thermostat setting is realistic and what I should be trying to achieve? Also, since the 80 watt rhp I want has been out of stock forever, as alternative I found this: Cozy Products CL Cozy Safe Chicken Coop Heater 200 Watts Safer Than Brooder Lamps, One Size, Black https://a.co/d/c5ry9gs And this: SWEETER HEATER Safe Heater for Chicks, Coops, & Animals, OH11x40, 150 Watt https://a.co/d/cc4ddZW Does anyone use these and is the Sweeter Heater four times better—based on the cost?


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 11, 2022)

Wpagey said:


> We live in SoCal, have an 80 lb 12 year old Sully, who lives outside with 4x4x2 nightbox using Tom’s design. Inside has heated floor mat and 40 watt rhp above. This is the first winter with this setup and I think we need more rhp heat. The thermostat probe is on the cold side of the box and reads 15-20 degrees over outside temperature at night. Since radiant heat is designed to heat the animal rather than the surrounding air, how do I know that the 80 degree thermostat setting is realistic and what I should be trying to achieve? Also, since the 80 watt rhp I want has been out of stock forever, as alternative I found this: Cozy Products CL Cozy Safe Chicken Coop Heater 200 Watts Safer Than Brooder Lamps, One Size, Black https://a.co/d/c5ry9gs And this: SWEETER HEATER Safe Heater for Chicks, Coops, & Animals, OH11x40, 150 Watt https://a.co/d/cc4ddZW Does anyone use these and is the Sweeter Heater four times better—based on the cost?


I use the brooder heater from Tractor Supply.

It has 2 settings 40 and 200 watts.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 11, 2022)

Also, move the RHP over to the side where the tortoise parks at night.


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## Wpagey (Nov 11, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> Also, move the RHP over to the side where the tortoise parks at night.


 The thermostat probe is what is on the cold side, and the tortoise moves to wherever he likes


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## Yvonne G (Nov 11, 2022)

Wpagey said:


> The thermostat probe is what is on the cold side, and the tortoise moves to wherever he likes


I see.

I have two night boxes. One is in a greenhouse and has three RHP on each wall at one end of the box. This configuration has worked for three winters, keeping it warm enough for the tortoises that live in that area.

I'm having trouble with the other one, which is outside up against a back wall of my house. It has two RHP at one end on opposing walls and it's not warm enough in there. Today I'm working on how to attach a CHE to the ceiling, and maybe add a small pig blanket to the floor. 

The night house in the GH is a home made fully insulated one made out of plywood and rigid foam, while the night house outside is a PVC patio box that has had rigid foam insulation added to all surfaces inside.


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## Wpagey (Nov 11, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> I use the brooder heater from Tractor Supply.
> View attachment 351720
> It has 2 settings 40 and 200 watts.


Thanks…I like the two settings feature also. How long have you had those in use?


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## Wpagey (Nov 11, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> I see.
> 
> I have two night boxes. One is in a greenhouse and has three RHP on each wall at one end of the box. This configuration has worked for three winters, keeping it warm enough for the tortoises that live in that area.
> 
> ...





Yvonne G said:


> I see.
> 
> I have two night boxes. One is in a greenhouse and has three RHP on each wall at one end of the box. This configuration has worked for three winters, keeping it warm enough for the tortoises that live in that area.
> 
> ...


When we got our tort 1 1/2 years ago, we were given the somewhat insulated dog house with a CHE that the previous owners were using. After finding The Forum, we went to heat mat below and rhp above as well as building Toms nightbox. Having heat from above and below is working much better for us.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 11, 2022)

Wpagey said:


> Thanks…I like the two settings feature also. How long have you had those in use?


This is the 3rd winter for one, the 2nd winter one and going to be the first winter for the two I'm setting up now.


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## Blackdog1714 (Nov 11, 2022)

How this discussion looks in my head


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 11, 2022)

I've been thinking about the discussion on the difference of thermostats and dimmers here. I would like to try incorporating a thermostat in the new house that I'm building for Thomas. Since I have no idea what kind to get I'm looking for suggestions on which one to start with.


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## jaizei (Nov 12, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> I've been thinking about the discussion on the difference of thermostats and dimmers here. I would like to try incorporating a thermostat in the new house that I'm building for Thomas. Since I have no idea what kind to get I'm looking for suggestions on which one to start with.



A proportional thermostat will work like the rheostat and adjust automatically based on the temperature, instead of turning on/off.

Herpstat and Reptile Basics VE-200 or VE-300. Some Exo Terra and Zoo Med thermostats are proportional.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 12, 2022)

jaizei said:


> A proportional thermostat will work like the rheostat and adjust automatically based on the temperature, instead of turning on/off.
> 
> Herpstat and Reptile Basics VE-200 or VE-300. Some Exo Terra and Zoo Med thermostats are proportional.


Thank You, This is very helpful.


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## Markw84 (Nov 12, 2022)

Turtulas-Len said:


> I've been thinking about the discussion on the difference of thermostats and dimmers here. I would like to try incorporating a thermostat in the new house that I'm building for Thomas. Since I have no idea what kind to get I'm looking for suggestions on which one to start with.


I don't use proportional in my night houses or enclosures. A basic thermostat like the inkbird, I use mostly, will only have a hystereis of 2° in an insulated nightbox of the "Tom" variety. I do use the oil filled radiator and you can not have that on a proportional as well. You could even reduce the hysteresis by placing the probe closer to the heat source, but I like it with the probe near the cool spot of the box. I am in the process of moving right now and building all new night boxes for my tortoises. I have purchased the Inkbird wifi thermostats for each night box. That way I can control temperatures in the night box remotely as well as view temperature history/graphs from the same app.









Wi-Fi Reptile Thermostat IPT-2CH


INKBIRD IPT-2CH is a plug-and-play, easy-to-use heating mat controller supporting phone monitoring via 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi connections, high-and-low temperature alarms, temperature calibration and probe abnormal alarm. It’s an ideal temperature controller for reptiles and germination.




inkbird.shop


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 12, 2022)

Markw84 said:


> I don't use proportional in my night houses or enclosures. A basic thermostat like the inkbird, I use mostly, will only have a hystereis of 2° in an insulated nightbox of the "Tom" variety. I do use the oil filled radiator and you can not have that on a proportional as well. You could even reduce the hysteresis by placing the probe closer to the heat source, but I like it with the probe near the cool spot of the box. I am in the process of moving right now and building all new night boxes for my tortoises. I have purchased the Inkbird wifi thermostats for each night box. That way I can control temperatures in the night box remotely as well as view temperature history/graphs from the same app.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Mark, I like this one and didn't know about the proportional not working on the oil filled radiator type heaters. I like the price too. This morning I ordered this

I was looking for something with a high temperature range and high wattage use. So I wouldn't accidentally cook it. If I can get this one set correctly I've got other houses to do and really like the WiFi use the inkbird offers so I'll order some.


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## Team Gomberg (Nov 13, 2022)

I use Hydrofarm Jump Start digital thermostats. The one in Levi's house operates his mini oil filled radiator. It has been in use for at least 8 years and is still running. I have another one operating my Ball Python's CHE and that one is going on 6 years. I have 2 more stored in an extra supply bin that were in use when I had more critters. 

I love them. They work exactly like I want. When the temps drop 2 degrees below the set temperature, they click the heat source fully on. When temps reach the set temperature, it clicks the heat source fully off.


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## Cathie G (Nov 14, 2022)

Team Gomberg said:


> I use Hydrofarm Jump Start digital thermostats. The one in Levi's house operates his mini oil filled radiator. It has been in use for at least 8 years and is still running. I have another one operating my Ball Python's CHE and that one is going on 6 years. I have 2 more stored in an extra supply bin that were in use when I had more critters.
> 
> I love them. They work exactly like I want. When the temps drop 2 degrees below the set temperature, they click the heat source fully on. When temps reach the set temperature, it clicks the heat source fully off.
> 
> View attachment 351780


I love the oil filled heaters too. Cheap too operate. Safe for animals and children. Not prone to start fires yet effective and lasts for years. I have one that works great and it's probably around 13 years old.


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## wellington (Nov 16, 2022)

Team Gomberg said:


> I use Hydrofarm Jump Start digital thermostats. The one in Levi's house operates his mini oil filled radiator. It has been in use for at least 8 years and is still running. I have another one operating my Ball Python's CHE and that one is going on 6 years. I have 2 more stored in an extra supply bin that were in use when I had more critters.
> 
> I love them. They work exactly like I want. When the temps drop 2 degrees below the set temperature, they click the heat source fully on. When temps reach the set temperature, it clicks the heat source fully off.
> 
> View attachment 351780


Mine needs to support 1500 watts. I don't use a mini oil filled radiator, I use the full size ones. Most don't support the 1500w. The ones I used to use worked great but only lasted 2 years. Hopefully the new inkbird I got will last longer. It was double the price so it better.


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## wellington (Nov 16, 2022)

Cathie G said:


> I love the oil filled heaters too. Cheap too operate. Safe for animals and children. Not prone to start fires yet effective and lasts for years. I have one that works great and it's probably around 13 years old.


Fingers cross it keeps lasting. The newer ones don't work as well as the older ones.


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## Cathie G (Nov 16, 2022)

wellington said:


> Fingers cross it keeps lasting. The newer ones don't work as well as the older ones.


 It might be that most of them are digital now. I hate that. I did manage to find a new one that's not quite digital a couple of years ago. It has 2 buttons for low, medium and high with a dial for the between temps like they used to do. I bought it immediately. So far so good.


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## wellington (Nov 16, 2022)

Cathie G said:


> It might be that most of them are digital now. I hate that. I did manage to find a new one that's not quite digital a couple of years ago. It has 2 buttons for low, medium and high with a dial for the between temps like they used to do. I bought it immediately. So far so good.


No mine aren't digital. Not sure what it is but they just dont work like the old ones. When it's really cold here I have to use two. One full on the other half on. I used to only use one full on.


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 16, 2022)

I got the thermostat Monday afternoon and put it in Thomas's new house last night and started tweeking it in today. It seems to be working fine. I have the 2 chicken brooder heaters with dimmers reducing the wattage running through it. The Stanfield heat mat is running through a dimmer but not on a thermostat. I was able to get the air temp to 84F just above top of his shell when walking and the mat to 84.9. It's been holding those temps since the sun went down. Earlier today I noticed that the mat temperature had dropped on both sending units that I had setting on it to watch the temps change. That actually made me happy because I knew Thomas had ventured into his new home on his own for the first time. He's spending the night in it. The floor temperature away from the heaters was running in the low 70s but should go up some with the constant heat on now.


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## Team Gomberg (Nov 17, 2022)

wellington said:


> No mine aren't digital. Not sure what it is but they just dont work like the old ones. When it's really cold here I have to use two. One full on the other half on. I used to only use one full on.


Things aren't made to last these days. They are made to break so you have to keep buying. To start discussing this would need an off topic thread of it's own.

True about the Hydrofarm thermostat I use not being sufficient to run 1500 watts. Something for me to keep in mind if I ever use a large on on a thermostat. I actually run a large one in my parrot/snake room during the winter for ambient heat. Although, it's directly plugged into the wall.


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## Cathie G (Nov 17, 2022)

wellington said:


> No mine aren't digital. Not sure what it is but they just dont work like the old ones. When it's really cold here I have to use two. One full on the other half on. I used to only use one full on.


I don't like the new ones as well either. Of the older type I've never had one that the controls stopped working. Maybe it's the electronics in the new ones isn't up to par. I don't really trust that after a digital one I bought for my brothers bedroom stopped working. I have one of those I'm keeping for backup but I'll never depend on it to keep working. The one in my brothers room now doesn't have digital gadgets on it but I still don't trust it and check on it. If Joe gets cold he'll tell me also. My tortoise has the old dependable workhorse because hopefully he can't jump out of his enclosure and come and get me . We live in a small house that's really easy to heat so I've never had to use them full on. I have a few other tricks up my sleeve also just in case I don't have electricity


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## Turtulas-Len (Nov 17, 2022)

It gets cold here in the Northern Neck of Virginia, right now it's 32F. High temperature today was in the low 40s with moderate winds but that didn't keep my sulcatas inside their houses all day. They all come out to eat and wander around for a bit daily. This is Squiggly

Thomas

Galloper

Donald

And my old guy Walker

I chop, cut or tare by hand their food up so they can get more volume intake with each bite. I will also wrinkle up some food items that may lay flat on the plate so they can access it easier. I know some here think it's better to feed whole pieces so they have to rip and tare what ever they are eating to help keep their beak from over growing. I don't have a break problem with any of my tortoises since starting doing this.


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