# MBD



## Fredkas (Sep 19, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> When they see people they come over to see if you're going to feed them. You can rub their neck and head. They're not the least bit afraid of people. I've had to give them calcium stuffed into a strawberry from a skewer for the past couple years because they were both calcium deficient, so they've come to realize that people means treats.


How we know that the tort has calcium deficient?


----------



## Fredkas (Sep 19, 2016)

What i worry the most for now is MBD. I don't want to talk about "Give the sun 30min/1hour/ 2 hours a day/every other day"
That is what we all know.
I want to know the symptoms. I want to know how to spot an earlier MBD.

We all know hatchling have soft/flex carapace and plastron, then when it will harden up completely? I believe it is nothing to do with age? Is it something to do with the weight?

If different species have different measurement, then i am refer to Sulcata Tortoise.

Please give your valuable opinion, i would like to read as many as possible. Refer to a link is a very welcoming act too, as long as it gives benefit to this topic.
Thank you


----------



## JoesMum (Sep 19, 2016)

Fredkas, if your tortoise gets outside every day for one hour you will not have to look for signs of MBD. 

If you see signs of MBD, your tort is already very sick and it's too late. Prevention is better than a cure. The very earliest signs would only be visible by getting an expensive bone scan done at a vet. 

If your tortoise cannot go outside every day then it must have a UVB lamp which is switched on for 12 hours a day.

A tiny pinch of calcium powder sprinkled on food three times a week is the other part of preventing MBD


----------



## Fredkas (Sep 19, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> *If you see signs of MBD, your tort is already very sick and it's too late. The very earliest signs would only be visible by getting an expensive bone scan done at a vet.*


Everybody agree with this opinion?
Goosh you got me @JoesMum.. but the only uvb bulb is coiled one and MVB, MVB will be way too hot. Really can't do anythiing about it.
Let's wait for several more opinion. And i hate uvb bulb, it seems nothing really reliable, but just stay in topic for this time, these questions is important for me . No way i am going to lose toro because of this.


----------



## JoesMum (Sep 19, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> Everybody agree with this opinion?
> Goosh you got me @JoesMum.. but the only uvb bulb is coiled one and MVB, MVB will be way too hot. Really can't do anythiing about it.
> Let's wait for several more opinion. And i hate uvb bulb, it seems nothing really reliable, but just stay in topic for this time, these questions is important for me . No way i am going to lose toro because of this.


If the MVB is too hot then it needs to be a lower wattage bulb (60 Watts instead of 100W) and/or raised further away from the substrate. 

If the enclosure is too small then that makes things worse. 

There is no magic wand that can be waved to prevent MBD. And there is no way that you should wait for signs to show before doing something.


----------



## saginawhxc (Sep 19, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> but the only uvb bulb is coiled one and MVB


They also make it in a fluorescent tube.


----------



## Fredkas (Sep 19, 2016)

saginawhxc said:


> They also make it in a fluorescent tube.


Can't find it anywhere


----------



## Tom (Sep 19, 2016)

saginawhxc said:


> They also make it in a fluorescent tube.



This is correct. There are many tube type UV bulbs on the market that are safe, effective, and won't overheat the enclosure. The HO types are actually quite strong. I run my Arcadia 12% HO tube only for about 4 hours mid day.

MBD symptoms: Sometime in little ones you can feel a softening of the plastron. Often there is a weakening of the back legs which can appear to be paralysis. If it goes on long enough, the carapace can begin to take on a sunken in appearance. It would take months of poor care, poor diet, no calcium supplementation and a complete lack of any kind of UV for these symptoms to begin to appear. We had a mod named Kristina who lived in Cadillac Michigan. All of her tortoises live outside in sunny enclosures during the warmer months, but then they would spend the frozen winters indoors. For 6 months a year they had ZERO UV and they were all fine. Growing, healthy and thriving. This is the most extreme example I know of where the person did not use indoor UV, but never had any problems because of it. So if you install a UV tube of some sort, plus get your tortoise outside for real sunshine when you can, you should not have any MBD issues.


----------



## Fredkas (Sep 19, 2016)

Tom said:


> This is correct. There are many tube type UV bulbs on the market that are safe, effective, and won't overheat the enclosure. The HO types are actually quite strong. I run my Arcadia 12% HO tube only for about 4 hours mid day.
> 
> MBD symptoms: Sometime in little ones you can feel a softening of the plastron. Often there is a weakening of the back legs which can appear to be paralysis. If it goes on long enough, the carapace can begin to take on a sunken in appearance. It would take months of poor care, poor diet, no calcium supplementation and a complete lack of any kind of UV for these symptoms to begin to appear. We had a mod named Kristina who lived in Cadillac Michigan. All of her tortoises live outside in sunny enclosures during the warmer months, but then they would spend the frozen winters indoors. For 6 months a year they had ZERO UV and they were all fine. Growing, healthy and thriving. This is the most extreme example I know of where the person did not use indoor UV, but never had any problems because of it. So if you install a UV tube of some sort, plus get your tortoise outside for real sunshine when you can, you should not have any MBD issues.


If you remember i was discussing this with you, still can't find it anywhere tom.
Do you have any idea about when healthy hatchling will harden up their carapace and plastron completely? I believe it is nothing to do with age? Is it something to do with the weight?


----------



## Tom (Sep 19, 2016)

They never harden up completely. There is some plastron flexibility even in adults if you press on them. With size, weight and age they gradually get less and less flexible.


----------



## Fredkas (Sep 19, 2016)

Tom said:


> They never harden up completely. There is some plastron flexibility even in adults if you press on them. With size, weight and age they gradually get less and less flexible.


How about carapace? Also have a bit of flexibility even in adults?


----------



## Yvonne G (Sep 19, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> How we know that the tort has calcium deficient?



I wasn't sure at first if they were poisoned by eating the berries from a privet that was growing in their yard or calcium deficiency. BO was foaming at the mouth and was showing signs of weakness. As it progressed, the foaming never went away, and the weakness got so bad he couldn't raise himself up on his feet. He pulls himself along sliding on his plastron. The vet told me how much calcium to give him and eventually the foaming went away. I pulled out the privets, and he's been getting extra calcium for three or four years now, but he still can't stand tall on his legs. The vet thinks there's nerve damage.

SO never got that bad, but he also showed signs of weakness. But the added calcium worked quickly on him and he has no trouble now with weakness.


----------



## Yvonne G (Sep 19, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> Can't find it anywhere



You can order it online. Amazon.com sells them.

http://www.borderlinx.com/ID/en/pages/buy-on-amazon-com-and-ship-to-indonesia/


----------



## Fredkas (Sep 19, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> I wasn't sure at first if they were poisoned by eating the berries from a privet that was growing in their yard or calcium deficiency. BO was foaming at the mouth and was showing signs of weakness. As it progressed, the foaming never went away, and the weakness got so bad he couldn't raise himself up on his feet. He pulls himself along sliding on his plastron. The vet told me how much calcium to give him and eventually the foaming went away. I pulled out the privets, and he's been getting extra calcium for three or four years now, but he still can't stand tall on his legs. The vet thinks there's nerve damage.
> 
> SO never got that bad, but he also showed signs of weakness. But the added calcium worked quickly on him and he has no trouble now with weakness.


What kind of extra calcium do you feed on them?


----------



## Tom (Sep 19, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> How about carapace? Also have a bit of flexibility even in adults?



Less so, but yes. It will feel pretty rigid, but if you lean on it hard enough, it does flex a little bit.


----------



## Yvonne G (Sep 19, 2016)

I punch a hole in a strawberry with a drinking straw then I insert a 600 mg calcium tablet into the hole. They each get three of those.


----------



## Fredkas (Sep 19, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> You can order it online. Amazon.com sells them.
> 
> http://www.borderlinx.com/ID/en/pages/buy-on-amazon-com-and-ship-to-indonesia/


You save me!! I never look at amazon anymore because they never ship to Indonesia. Things change now. Thanks a lot.



Tom said:


> Less so, but yes. It will feel pretty rigid, but if you lean on it hard enough, it does flex a little bit.


So i am being paranoid, sometimes i press Toro hard enough to see the flex and that is why i am so afraid of MBD. I know it now! 
I found that the carapace will flex more if he is kept wet (i am not refer to humid) such as when he just finished from soaking, will be less flex / hard carapace if he just bask on sunshine.


----------



## Fredkas (Sep 19, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> I punch a hole in a strawberry with a drinking straw then I insert a 600 mg calcium tablet into the hole. They each get three of those.


You refer to calcium tablet that produce for human being?


----------



## saginawhxc (Sep 19, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> So i am being paranoid, sometimes i press Toro hard enough to see the flex and that is why i am so afraid of MBD.


Well quit doing that then. Plus I'm willing to bet Toro does not enjoy it.


----------



## Yvonne G (Sep 19, 2016)

Yes. Because my tortoises live outside, I buy the human calcium tablets that don't contain D3.


----------



## Fredkas (Sep 19, 2016)

saginawhxc said:


> Well quit doing that then. Plus I'm willing to bet Toro does not enjoy it.


Lol it is not like what you imagine. I gently press it,sometimes put a little more to compare his progress. It is not like brutally  He didn't feel a thing. I knew it because I did it when he was eating so he will stop eating if he feels uncomfortable and i know he doesn't like it. But he just ignore me. The only way i can make him stop eating is when rubbed the carapace, he will stop the eating. If i stop rubbing it, he will continue the eating.


----------



## Fredkas (Sep 19, 2016)

Noted. Thank you for the nice valuable info


----------



## Fredkas (Sep 20, 2016)

This thread goes wrong @Yvonne G . Somebody should fix it


----------

