# Do you think it's ethical to keep reptiles as pets?



## Tortus

This was inspired by another thread. Maybe "ethical" isn't the right word.

I've had reptiles all my life. I've had green iguanas, uromastyx, bearded dragons, anoles, horn toad lizards, snakes, aquatic turtles, and now a tortoise.

What they all have in common is they don't want to be restrained. They don't want to be in enclosures. They don't want their range limited to one small area. They really don't like our company, even if we want to believe they do. 

I find them beautiful and fascinating. But when I think about it, I don't believe they were meant to be pets. They tolerate us at best. 

I think this tortoise will be my last reptile. It was captive born and I can't release it into the wild, so I'll do my best to make it happy. Even captive born reptiles yearn to be free. Sometimes I feel selfish.


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## StudentoftheReptile

Tortus said:


> This was inspired by another thread. Maybe "ethical" isn't the right word.
> 
> What they all have in common is they don't want to be restrained. They don't want to be in enclosures. They don't want their range limited to one small area. They really don't like our company, even if we want to believe they do.



Oh boy...where's the popcorn-eating emoticon? LOL
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First of all, you have to define whether or not how you keep said animal is considered inhumane or subtracting from quality of life, before you try to figure out whether it is "ethical" to do so. You say they don't "like" our company and don't like to be restrained, etc., and to some degree, that is true. Reptiles are not social animals (with few exceptions) and certainly not domesticated in the traditional sense; likewise, they want plenty of space to feel "free."

Now because they are not typically social, and for the most part, not as "evolved" as the higher animals we do considered domesticated (dogs, cats, livestock), if their basic needs are met, quality of life is a lot easier to achieve/provide than it is for say, a dog, or a monkey, which aside from basic amenities (food, water, shelter), also need regular mental stimulation, etc. In other words, if you provide a spacious, proper habitat for your tortoise, and offer it a well-balanced proper diet, it is not "pining" to be in the wild like Marty the zebra from the film, Madagascar. It doesn't have the mental capacity to do so. It has heat, UV, food, shelter, water...yeah, it could always appreciate a little more room, but it's set! Obviously, widcaught specimens don't always acclimate as well as captive-bred animals do, but for the most part, reptiles do just fine if you give them what they need.



> I find them beautiful and fascinating.



WHich is why you and most of us keep them. At the core, no matter how you rationalize it, we do keep these animals for our own enjoyment. Yes, some of us do rescue work or conservation work, but that's not usually how it started out. You wanted something cool to care for, handle and keep in a little glass box and that's why you got it. I'm not judging, because I'm in the same boat.



> But when I think about it, I don't believe they were meant to be pets. They tolerate us at best.



That is very true. But one could argue that wolves were never really meant to be pets either, but that is where the domesticated dog came from. Same goes for cattle and poultry. 



> I think this tortoise will be my last reptile. It was captive born and I can't release it into the wild, so I'll do my best to make it happy.



That is your decision. But sometimes I think about it this way...in their native land, reptiles have to worry about predators, disease and parasites, on top of just trying to find food for themselves. Yes, something that cna be said for overcollecting from wild populations, but if I can give a tortoise a "free ride" where it doesn't have to worry about that, I feel like I'm doing good. Mind you, I'm not out to rescue all the sulcatas and redfoots in the world.

Another thing to consider is that captive breeding is really the only way to preserve endangered species. Not really a 



> Even captive born reptiles yearn to be free.



Again, this is kind of subjective, since there is no way to say exactly what the emotional capacity of a reptile is. Does a captive-born tortoise who has never set foot on the African savannah or South American rainforest really going to know what it's missing and just lead a depressed life "yearning" for more? Or will it just take things as it comes; food brought it it everyday, no concern for predation, etc.

I think the latter is more likely.


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## kimber_lee_314

Sometimes I do feel sad for mine even though they all have lovely outdoor enclosures. None of them can ever go back to the wild so I try to do my best to replicate where they should be. That's about the best I can do. Also, in captivity they get so much more than they would in the wild - constant sources of food and water and vet care when they are sick. It's the same for my birds. The yearn to be free - but to release them would be cruel. It's a hard question, but I feel like as long as we do the best we can with them, it's okay to keep them as pets.


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## Tortus

Yes, I think captive born reptiles instinctively know all about freedom. All of mine have been born in captivity, and all of them want nothing more than to escape. No matter how big the enclosure or how good the food is. Even people who keep them in their yards report of escapes. They want to be out and do their own thing.

I liken this to raising wild baby birds that I've found in the yard. They don't know a thing about the wild since their eyes were shut when I found them. But when they got their feathers and I took them outside, they were gone. I've raised two wild baby doves and a robin. They knew what freedom was.

As far as using conservation as an excuse, who does that benefit? Does it benefit the animal, being kept in a situation it doesn't want to be in just so we can look at them for a few more years? 

I dunno. I'm just rethinking a few things.


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## DanieltheAnvil

I think reptiles do well is captivity. they have no predators hunting them everyday, they are not searching for food. though we enjoy interaction with them, I doubt they mind all that often. A Good pet owner keeps working till their pet is happy. 

In some religions including Christianity (dont delete my post) it talks about God giving man authority over animals. (No debating this I'm just bringing it up) 

With that being said. I would put up some pet mothers/fathers or mother nature anytime. thats why mistreatment of anaimals is so worng. if your are trusted with the life of an animal to improve its quality of life, then do it right.


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## wellington

Everyone has great points. The fact of it is, they are always going to be sold as pets, right or wrong. Once it started, it won't go back. You can be a care giver or not. But they are always going to be for sale. I see it this way. I know how well I take care of my animals. I spend whatever it takes and do whatever it takes. If its living with me, then it can't go to someone like on Craigslist.


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## Tortus

I agree that they're relatively safe in good, human care. They get proper food and vet care when needed. They don't have to worry about predators, even though they often seem to think that WE are the predators. 

But when I see them trying to escape and sometimes actually looking sad, it makes me think that the trade of these animals is unethical. My uromastyx eats like a pig and I've had it ever since it was a hatchling, but I still see it scratching at the glass and sometimes laying there with it's head pressed against it, apparently wanting nothing more than to be anywhere else. It wants to dig a huge, deep burrow, forage for food, and go where it wants when it wants. 

I can't provide that. And it's in a large enclosure. I don't think the size makes much difference when they know they have boundaries. You could put me in a prison and feed me filet mignon every day and I'd still want to be out.


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## StudentoftheReptile

Tortus said:


> Yes, I think captive born reptiles instinctively know all about freedom. All of mine have been born in captivity, and all of them want nothing more than to escape. No matter how big the enclosure or how good the food is. Even people who keep them in their yards report of escapes. They want to be out and do their own thing.
> 
> I liken this to raising wild baby birds that I've found in the yard. They don't know a thing about the wild since their eyes were shut when I found them. But when they got their feathers and I took them outside, they were gone. I've raised two wild baby doves and a robin. They knew what freedom was.



Well, if this is how you truly feel, then it sounds like keeping any form of exotic animal (fish, bird, reptile, amphibian, etc.) is clearly not for you. Just don't become an animal rights activist, because most of the people on this board feel very strongly about it and the AR movement is the enemy of most that do keep these types of animals as pets.



> As far as using conservation as an excuse, who does that benefit? Does it benefit the animal, being kept in a situation it doesn't want to be in just so we can look at them for a few more years?



Conservation benefits the species. Otherwise, eventually there will none ANYWHERE and once the last one dies (wherever it may be), the only way anyone can enjoy them is through a photograph or arhived video. I don't want my kids growing up in a world where they would be able to see an Aldabra tortoise in person or an Alabama red-bellied turtle (my state reptile). There are a lot of people across the world doing very good work to preserve reptile species. Simply making a designated area into a national park isn't enough. Captive breeding is part of the process of restoring endangered species.


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## Tortus

And if none are anywhere else but in captivity, what difference does that make? They're not in nature contributing to the food chain. They're not living as they were intended to live. Might as well just be looking at a picture IMO.

What if tasmanian tigers were still in zoos? Ok, there's a cool animal that I can take my kids to go see. There it is, pacing back and forth in the exhibit, going stir crazy, wanting to be free.

Yeah, that's really benefiting the species.


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## StudentoftheReptile

Tortus said:


> I agree that they're relatively safe in good, human care. They get proper food and vet care when needed. They don't have to worry about predators, even though they often seem to think that WE are the predators.



I disagree. I have had many reptiles that will run right up to me when I bring food. I don't think they "like" me, but they clearly are smart enough to know that I am not a threat. If they percieved me as a predator, they wouldn't act that way. Of course, every individual animal is different as well. I have had some lizards that didn't particularly like being handled but they did not run away from me when I approached.

I think your reptile keeping experience is a little limited. 



> But when I see them trying to escape and sometimes actually looking sad, it makes me think that the trade of these animals is unethical. My uromastyx eats like a pig and I've had it ever since it was a hatchling, but I still see it scratching at the glass and sometimes laying there with it's head pressed against it, apparently wanting nothing more than to be anywhere else. It wants to dig a huge, deep burrow, forage for food, and go where it wants when it wants.



How large are your enclosures? NO matter...Like Barbara said, the pet industry will always continue, whether you are in it or not. My stance is that a lot of animals are going to end up as food, skinned for wallets or belts, or dying in poor set-ups by ignorant keepers. In the wild, they will live a very shortened life, filled with competition, predators and disease. You, me, nor anyone else can stop this huge machine. I'm not out to rescue every single reptile out there in pet shops and expos, but with proper care, I really don't think these reptiles are as "sad" or "pining for freedom" as much as you think they are. I think you have a limited understanding of the mental capacity of reptiles and are guilty of a little anthropomorphizing.

For example, please explain to me how a reptile which has no facial muscles capable of expressing emotion can "look sad" as you put it.



> I can't provide that. And it's in a large enclosure. I don't think the size makes much difference when they know they have boundaries.



You can always go bigger, but again, if you are unable to, perhaps exotic pets are not for you. But still, I think the hang-up is more on your end, than the reptiles.




Tortus said:


> And if none are anywhere else but in captivity, what difference does that make? They're not in nature contributing to the food chain. They're not living as they were intended to live. Might as well just be looking at a picture IMO.
> 
> What if tasmanian tigers were still in zoos? Ok, there's a cool animal that I can take my kids to go see. There it is, pacing back and forth in the exhibit, going stir crazy, wanting to be free.
> 
> Yeah, that's really benefiting the species.



Then what is your proposal? Just turn everything free and let everything die when we have paved the entire planet over with concrete and asphalt? LOL....seriously, are you a member of PETA?


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## Tortus

I'm saying that very few owners of exotics can provide what they crave. If any. I once turned an entire bedroom into a jungle for a green iguana and it still wanted out. 

They look sad by their posture. Their movements. By behaviour that doesn't seem natural. You call yourself a student, but have you actually studied them?

And yes, if a species can't ever be free again in the wild and is miserable in captivity it's only around for our amusement. Maybe large zoos can make them somewhat content, but as pets for your average Joe I don't think so.


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## StudentoftheReptile

Tortus said:


> I'm saying that very few owners of exotics can provide what they crave. If any. I once turned an entire bedroom into a jungle for a green iguana and it still wanted out.
> 
> They look sad by their posture. Their movements. By behaviour that doesn't seem natural. You call yourself a student, but have you actually studied them?
> 
> And yes, if a species can't ever be free again in the wild and is miserable in captivity it's only around for our amusement. Maybe large zoos can make them somewhat content, but as pets for your average Joe I don't think so.



LOL...again, your experience must be very limited indeed. I have seen a much greater number of private keepers that take much better care of their herps than the majority of zoos. Most zoos are about on par with pet shops.

Yes, I have studied them....and part of that comes objective observation that does not include attributing human characteristics to creatures that do not possess them.
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I'm not going to have a pissing match with you to find out how many herps you have actually owned and how you cared for them. That's great that you turned a whole room into an iguanarium, most people wouldn't do that. But by everything else you have posted, you still apparently lack a perspective on the issue. To even imply that any form of conservation effort is "selfish" is evident of a narrow-minded view indeed. 

How old are you by the way? Just a ballpark (since its probably against rules to give that info out)...mid 20s? You in college? Still in highschool? Give me a point of reference.


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## Tortus

Well I've been warned not to get into a debate with you, so this will be my last reply.

Conservation of wild animals is great if it's to keep them alive in the wild. Keeping them as pets just so we can look at them is on the selfish side in my opinion. And this is coming from someone who's kept them for over 20 years so I guess it sounds hypocritical. I know they need a good home and I try to provide that, even though in the back of my mind I think I shouldn't be supporting the exotic pet trade at all.

What if some giant alien species took the last humans to their planet and put them in a big bubble? They provide the humans with a house, food, and medical care when needed. But when you go outside, you see the bubble. You know you can't go anywhere else. Ever. That's it. And you see the aliens staring at you all day. Sure you can breed and possibly keep the species alive for a few more generations, but at what cost? What quality of life would you have? Would it matter if the humans simply died out rather than to be imprisoned? 

It's just something I've been thinking about. People can disagree and I'm not claiming to be 100% right. But from all I've seen, this is how I currently feel. I still love my herps but sometimes I feel bad for them. Maybe I just need a nap.


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## dmmj

Tortus said:


> Well I've been warned not to get into a debate with you, so this will be my last reply.


Who warned you? you can debate all you want as long as it is civil.


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## Yvonne G

This is a debatable topic. It's perfectly fine to debate. What's not fine is name calling or rude remarks. Just keep it clean and you'll be fine.


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## Tortus

I won't say who warned me but and I'm trying to be civil. But someone making multiple assumptions about me doesn't sit well so I see their point and I'll just leave it at that. It's one thing to debate, and another to basically attack someone's character and assume they can't care for their pets, question their age, and ask if they're a member of PETA.

I hope I didn't sound rude. I wasn't trying to.


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## StudentoftheReptile

Tortus said:


> Well I've been warned not to get into a debate with you, so this will be my last reply.



What on earth for? Because I like to debate? 



> Conservation of wild animals is great if it's to keep them alive in the wild. Keeping them as pets just so we can look at them is on the selfish side in my opinion. And this is coming from someone who's kept them for over 20 years so I guess it sounds hypocritical. I know they need a good home and I try to provide that, even though in the back of my mind I think I shouldn't be supporting the exotic pet trade at all.



And you know, to some degree, I can agree with that. I personally have no interest to contribute to the wild collection of species where it isn't needed. I really have little interest in "buying" animals at all. I will adopt and rehome them occasionally, but for the most part, I am more interested in conservation, which is why I started my own herp society in my area for likeminded people such as myself who are not content whining about how awful the big bad pet trade is behind a computer screen.



> What if some giant alien species took the last humans to their planet and put them in a big bubble? They provide the humans with a house, food, and medical care when needed. But when you go outside, you see the bubble. You know you can't go anywhere else. Ever. That's it. And you see the aliens staring at you all day.



Sorry, comparing animals to humans doesn't fly with me. Apples and oranges. Plus, I like to stick to realworld hypotheticals, not outlandish fantasies that cannot be tested.



> It's just something I've been thinking about. People can disagree and I'm not claiming to be 100% right.



I don't mind people voicing their opinions. But you started this thread asking for other people's opinions and you got mine. One of my personal pet peeves is when people base their opinions on narrow-mindedness, and can't back up their claims.



> But from all I've seen, this is how I currently feel. I still love my herps but sometimes I feel bad for them. Maybe I just need a nap.



Myabe so.


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## Cowboy_Ken

Wow. What a tread to stumble into! So as far as pets wanting to be free to do their own thing, my cats would love nothing more than to be free of the house at night to be picked off my the coyotes. And there was a time that my daughter wanted the â€œfreedom" at 15 to date a 23 yr old. I gladly shut all that down not for my entertainment but simply because I know better than the cats and my daughter when she was 15. 
As for placing human emotions on any animal, I find this is as false as thinking I know how it feels to fly like a bird or to hunt like a tiger.


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## StudentoftheReptile

Tortus said:


> It's one thing to debate, and another to basically attack someone's character and assume they can't care for their pets, question their age, and ask if they're a member of PETA.



I never attacked your character, or nor did I state that you do not care for your pets. Please quote where I did so.
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I only questioned why you felt the way you did, and to be honest, some of your counter-arguments do not hold up.

I admit the PETA querie was a bit much, but I do take AR very seriously as they are a threat to everyone on this forum. Some of the things you were suggesting is EXACTLY what I have heard known PETA members say, and it just flabbergasted me that a tortoise keeper would have this mentality.

I merely wanted to shed a bigger perspective on the issue, because I have had this conversation countless times. On some of your points, we can certainly agree; yes, the pet industry has many flaws. Yes, the simple act of keeping a pet is selfish on our part. But as I said before, the machine is too large to fight, and to be honest, there are many more important things going on in this world to concern yourself with than trying to figure out how "happy" your tortoise is.

Do whatever makes you sleep better at night, but I know I take _*darn*_ good care of my animals, and at the rate we are decimating this planet, I would rather give a handful even a half-way decent life living in my home or in my backyard than having them roasted alive over a fire, skinned alive, crushed by a bulldozer, or torn apart by a predator.

I know I come on strong, and I have strong opinions about this kinda stuff, but it really does irk me when people don't see the bigger picture on these subjects.


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## Tortus

^^Dogs and cats love to go outside, but all of mine come back. Most seem to genuinely enjoy human contact. I can't say the same for my green iguana with his own room. I put him on the screened porch one day to get some sun. Went in for a drink. And that was the last I saw of him. I still don't know how he got out since there are no holes in the screen. I thought it was secure but it wasn't.

Iguanas are masters of escape. My cousin had one that got loose when we were kids and we posted flyers around the neighborhood. Someone found it 1/2 a mile away. 

I knew my alien/human comment would get some flack, but from watching reptile behavior for so many years I have to think this is how they feel. Some cope much better than others in captivity so I won't assume they're all miserable. But I do think they all want to get away. I remember seeing a large iguana in a zoo in a large outdoor enclosure. It was pacing back and forth trying to get through the mesh. Even though it had trees and all kinds of things you'd see in nature.


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## Cowboy_Ken

When I see my tortoises stretched out basking asleep, I think they are dreaming of the next stage of their evolution, which they believe is flight, based on the fact that they spend time on the glass not trying to get out but trying to get airborne. If they wanted out, surely they would ram the glass and break it. My Uro climbs the glass not to escape but to get to the refrigerator where he knows the good greens are. Doves released at weddings fly away not to be free but to feed hawks and uphold an agreement hawks and doves made long ago. 
These are just some of my thoughts.


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## lovelyrosepetal

Hi Tortus, I know how you feel. You want the best for your animals and it discourages you when all they want to do is escape. I had seven box turtles,all of them rescues. They were all wild caught and I got them off of people on craigslist who got tired of having them. Out of all of those I only have four left. It just about breaks my heart. I spent hours on their enclosures and so much money on them, not to mention all the emotional investment. I don't know how they got away. I thought everything was secure, but in the morning they were gone, at different times. While I do think most wild animals would prefer to be free, I don't think that all do. I still have four box turtles. They have been outside of their enclosure and have not escaped for freedom. Wrong or right, I think that they like having the easy life. They are fed and have their needs met without having to do anything. They have a large outside enclosure and get to do the things they want, when they want and have never made a break for freedom. They seem to like my company and are content. While my heart breaks for my missing box turtles, I hope that they are safe and happy where ever they are. 
I do not think it is unethical to keep reptiles. If you want them and can care for them, then you should. The Lord put us on this earth and one of those reasons was for us to have experiences, if one of the experiences you want to have is to take care of His creations then you should. I am not saying take them and neglect them, I am saying take care of them. 
That is my two cents worth. Plus, I agree with StudentoftheReptile, animals do not have the same mental process as us and I think can be fine physically and mentally if their needs are met.


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## Tortus

My uro often climbs the glass when it's hungry or wants to poop. I have a litter box that I put it on to do its business then it settles down a bit. But sometimes it does it simply out of boredom and trying to escape I assume. Or it will look at the floor and scratch at the glass. I can't think of any other reason aside from wanting to get out and do its own thing.




lovelyrosepetal said:


> Hi Tortus, I know how you feel. You want the best for your animals and it discourages you when all they want to do is escape. I had seven box turtles,all of them rescues. They were all wild caught and I got them off of people on craigslist who got tired of having them. Out of all of those I only have four left. It just about breaks my heart. I spent hours on their enclosures and so much money on them, not to mention all the emotional investment. I don't know how they got away. I thought everything was secure, but in the morning they were gone, at different times. While I do think most wild animals would prefer to be free, I don't think that all do. I still have four box turtles. They have been outside of their enclosure and have not escaped for freedom. Wrong or right, I think that they like having the easy life. They are fed and have their needs met without having to do anything. They have a large outside enclosure and get to do the things they want, when they want and have never made a break for freedom. They seem to like my company and are content. While my heart breaks for my missing box turtles, I hope that they are safe and happy where ever they are.
> I do not think it is unethical to keep reptiles. If you want them and can care for them, then you should. The Lord put us on this earth and one of those reasons was for us to have experiences, if one of the experiences you want to have is to take care of His creations then you should. I am not saying take them and neglect them, I am saying take care of them.
> That is my two cents worth. Plus, I agree with StudentoftheReptile, animals do not have the same mental process as us and I think can be fine physically and mentally if their needs are met.



These are good points. I do think however that reptiles have some of the same feelings we do. Happiness. Fear. Sadness. Maybe not love since they're mostly solitary. You can't tell by facial expressions of course but just body language. Just my opinion.

I'm glad to hear different points of view.


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## Baoh

I imagine my tortoises would probably love to be free up until the point where they are eaten by predators, starve in a seasonal famine, or are hit by a significant negative weather/environmental event.


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## StudentoftheReptile

I have had three different species of Uros, and none of them did that. Mine were content to hide when they wanted and bask when they wanted. The only time they ever exhibited "unhappiness" was occasionally when picked up. But all seemed very content in their spacious housing, various hiding shelters, nice digable substrate and 1 square meal brought to them daily. And these were WC specimens, too.


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## EricIvins

Tortus said:


> ^^Dogs and cats love to go outside, but all of mine come back. Most seem to genuinely enjoy human contact. I can't say the same for my green iguana with his own room. I put him on the screened porch one day to get some sun. Went in for a drink. And that was the last I saw of him. I still don't know how he got out since there are no holes in the screen. I thought it was secure but it wasn't.
> 
> Iguanas are masters of escape. My cousin had one that got loose when we were kids and we posted flyers around the neighborhood. Someone found it 1/2 a mile away.
> 
> I knew my alien/human comment would get some flack, but from watching reptile behavior for so many years I have to think this is how they feel. Some cope much better than others in captivity so I won't assume they're all miserable. But I do think they all want to get away. I remember seeing a large iguana in a zoo in a large outdoor enclosure. It was pacing back and forth trying to get through the mesh. Even though it had trees and all kinds of things you'd see in nature.



I have a Dog that loves to outside and NEVER come back.......Should I just let him go because he wants to feel "freedom"? Isn't much for Human interaction either.........


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## StudentoftheReptile

I will concur that green iguanas require A LOT of space, and few people are willing to offer them the space they need.

I've never had a snake of any species exhibit sadness, or general discontent at being in captivity. Being picked up by large hairless primates, yes! But not in their habitats.

I could go on...Tortus, I'm not trying to "show off my resume" so to speak. But like you, I have been keeping reptiles for 20 yrs, and I have not seen much of the behavior you are describing that suggests reptiles in general are "unhappy' in captivity.


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## shellysmom

Tortus said:


> This was inspired by another thread. Maybe "ethical" isn't the right word.
> 
> I've had reptiles all my life. I've had green iguanas, uromastyx, bearded dragons, anoles, horn toad lizards, snakes, aquatic turtles, and now a tortoise.
> 
> What they all have in common is they don't want to be restrained. They don't want to be in enclosures. They don't want their range limited to one small area. They really don't like our company, even if we want to believe they do.
> 
> I find them beautiful and fascinating. But when I think about it, I don't believe they were meant to be pets. They tolerate us at best.
> 
> I think this tortoise will be my last reptile. It was captive born and I can't release it into the wild, so I'll do my best to make it happy. Even captive born reptiles yearn to be free. Sometimes I feel selfish.



I didn't read anyone else's response to this, because I didn't want to get distracted. And I'm not going to visit this thread again, because I don't want to see how people respond to my comments. BUT, in my ideal world--let's call it La La Land--wild animals, i.e., reptiles would never be pets. That's why I never have, and probably never will, buy any animal from a breeder or pet store. I don't want to support the wild-caught pet trade, or the people who exploit live creatures for profit. That being said, I obviously understand the attraction people have for these animals, and enjoy having them around. I just choose to rescue them, or give "gently used" ones a new home, instead of participating in the supply-demand dynamic. I've said it before, and I'll say it again and again: too many sulcatas are being dumped by their owners because they are completely impractical for the average person, yet people are still breeding them and selling them to average people like there's no tomorrow. That's really messed up, and I wish sellers would be a little more conscientious than that. If someone out there wants to breed tortoises, I'm in no position to stop them, but for God's sake choose a more practical (i.e., small, non-burrowing) species that can be housed easily. But, I can't control what other people do, so I just do whatever I can to help make up for it.

If reptile ownership were banned tomorrow, I would not mind at all, as long as I would be able to keep the ones I already have.


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## Floof

shellysmom said:


> If reptile ownership were banned tomorrow, I would not mind at all, as long as I would be able to keep the ones I already have.



Now, where is that popcorn when you need it...

I am utterly horrified at this statement (and completely baffled at Tortus's views). Were I a more articulate individual, I would be jumping head-first into this debate. But I'm not, so I think I'm going to go fetch some cookies, sit back, and enjoy the debate.

It'll be interesting to see where this goes, now that I know there are borderline animal rights activists amongst us... Well, if any of those AR activists decide to stick around to even talk about it, anyway.


----------



## terryo

I've kept box turtles for well over 30 years, and my Dad before me did. Now I have the Tortoises. I think I've provided the best homes inside and outside that I could for them. I love seeing how they come to me when they see me....looking for food....not a pat on the head. But, I don't think there is a living thing, even though provided with the best possible care, and habitat, that doesn't want to be free. Most would rather die then be confined. I've struggled with guilt feelings for years, sitting on a fence, wanting no part of keeping them, but my selfishness always won out. I don't think I would compare owning a pet to a breeding program to keep a species alive.


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## Jacqui

Floof said:


> But I'm not, so I think I'm going to go fetch some cookies, sit back, and enjoy the debate.



*uses sad puppy dog eyes* Boy those cookies sure look good. *hint hint*


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## Cowboy_Ken

I had children for selfish reasons. I think it's the same, right?


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## StudentoftheReptile

I really have nothing more to say, except some of the views expressed in this thread is exactly why I fear for the herp hobby in general. Its nice to know exactly who some of our enemies are.

Probably for the best that I have a new job where I won't be on the computer as much now anyway. It has always saddened me that some of the enemies of my hobby are on a herp forum of all places.


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## Floof

Jacqui said:


> Floof said:
> 
> 
> 
> But I'm not, so I think I'm going to go fetch some cookies, sit back, and enjoy the debate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *uses sad puppy dog eyes* Boy those cookies sure look good. *hint hint*
Click to expand...


Awww... Okay... You can have one.  *gives cookie*


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## wellington

Cookies, there's cookies, hey, where's the COOKIES


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## dannel

This is getting real serious now that cookies are involved!


And my 2 cents about keeping species alive, hypothetically speaking, what if a person had a "herd" of Pinta island tortoises. They could breed them, and release into the wild, and the species wouldn't be extinct anymore.


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## Yvonne G

StudentoftheReptile said:


> I really have nothing more to say, except some of the views expressed in this thread is exactly why I fear for the herp hobby in general. Its nice to know exactly who some of our enemies are.
> 
> Probably for the best that I have a new job where I won't be on the computer as much now anyway. It has always saddened me that some of the enemies of my hobby are on a herp forum of all places.



You really can't judge who is on a forum by the responses to a hot topic like this. I will fight for my right to keep tortoises as "pets," but I usually don't debate about it. There are probably many more like me in the world.


----------



## Floof

LOL. It's all Target's fault. The Halloween frosted sugar cookies looked too yummy to resist.

I'm still just incredibly speechless that there are people right here on a herp forum that support reptile bans. It's just... I mean, if you have kept and even currently keep reptiles, how is it that you could come to the conclusion that no one should be able to enjoy them? Not only is that incredibly hypocritical (I don't care if you rescued them from death's door, you're doing the very thing that you're so adamantly against), it's... Well, you know how much of a joy they are to interact with. One would _think_ that, being here, you might have come to realize that you aren't the _only_ person on the planet who cares for them correctly and are able to provide them with a happy, fulfilled life. It's just... Ugh. I can't even put words to it.

Like I said, I am not a terribly well articulated person, especially during a passionate discussion.

Anyway, I'll be off now. There are animals to be fed, cleaned, and enjoyed.

And, yes, I'm quite aware of how selfish I am for having pets. I'm also selfish for wanting cookies, lower gas prices, a house that isn't moldy in a climate where everything is, cheap rent, a job that's enjoyable. Any "want" can be labelled as "selfish" under some context. It's part of being human to be selfish. But as long as I am able to keep my selfishly owned pets happy, healthy, well-fed, and properly kept, I won't be losing any sleep.

Well, I guess I wasn't completely done after all. LOL.


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## BowandWalter

It's the human condition to transfer our mental structure onto animals, I do, I'm certain tons of people do. When my dog goes outside in the rain to do her business she behaves exactly how I imagine I would if I was expected to grovel around in wet grass. Miserable.

I'm not observant, or particularly good at not being distracted by pretty much anything. All the times I've been on the lawn and thought "Wholly cow! I've lost Walter" and frantically started looking for him, he's right behind me. He devotedly follows around after me, he likes to attack me, but if he really hated me he would have just charged off into the wilds by now. Maybe it's because he's a rescue, maybe he just hates me with the fiery passion of a thousand burning suns.
Same with my bird, he likes to sit outside in the kiwi vine if I'm outside. His wings aren't clipped, if he wanted he could just leave. But he doesn't. He follows me everywhere, outside, inside, wherever. He even gives me pieces of lint and weird things he's found, according to the avian vet for all intensive purposes I am Duki's partner. He's happier with me, a human, then he is with his own kind, we've even gotten him a girl, he has no interest in her, or any of the other birds I've rescued. I even Skype with him now that I'm going to school far far away.
I've rescued enough animals in 19 years to know that some people shouldn't have pets, heck some people shouldn't even be allowed to reproduce. As long as theirs silly people buying pets for S and G, there will be people like me rescuing them.


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## StudentoftheReptile

emysemys said:


> You really can't judge who is on a forum by the responses to a hot topic like this. I will fight for my right to keep tortoises as "pets," but I usually don't debate about it. There are probably many more like me in the world.



Yes I most certainly can, especially when members all but come out and say they in support of banning ownership of reptiles. This is not the first time I have observed this mentality on this forum, and honestly, I am sick of seeing it, discussing it, ever acknowledging its existence. I've said it before, but this is the ONLY forum I have seen "alleged" reptile keepers actually support bans, and I have been on quite a few over the years.

This isn't like I disagreed with someone over gun rights, or politics, or whether they believe in ghosts, or whatever. When someone says:



> If reptile ownership were banned tomorrow, I would not mind at all, as long as I would be able to keep the ones I already have



...that sends a fairly clear message that they do not value their privilege (don't care what anyone says, it is not a right, it is a privilege) to keep these animals (regardless of reason), and that statement right there basically says, "It's fine for me to keep on owning them, but not for anyone else."

I know Erika is not the only one has made such statements; there have been others. Their misguided delusions of animal welfare are a large part of what threatens what I enjoy doing. I have no interest in being associated with this forum any longer because of it. They are part of the problem I face constantly. Period.

If the administration wants to create a new forum exclusively for "tortoise conservationalists" who clearly oppose the pet trade, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea.


I'll tell you all why I'm acting this way, and then I'm done.

Like I said, we've had similar discussions before, and I've resigned myself to the fact that some of you tortoise folk are more than happy to throw snake keepers under the bus, for any number of silly, bogus reasons. I deal with it.

But on this thread, I have gotten the impression for at least two different people that you are willing to throw your own fellow tortoise keepers under the bus! That is completely backwards to me. I want to go into a room, shut the door, and scream into a pillow right now because I'm sitting here wondering to myself, "Why on earth are you on this forum?!"

If you're willing to throw the rest of us aside like that, shoot, you are indeed dead to me as a reptile enthusiast of any kind, and I don't want to be associated with you at all.

Those who know me well, you got my email. Feel free to shoot me a letter sometime. But I'm done with this place.


----------



## sibi

Now that most of the squabble is over, I'll jump in. The question was, "Do you think it's ethical to keep reptiles as pets?" Yes, it's certainly ethical, provided you care for them and try to simulate an environment similar to what's natural for them. That environment may not be sufficient but it will be necessary for them to survive and grow. Today, all kinds of reptiles, including our tortoises, are being exploited and sold to anyone who is willing to pay for it. Often times, they become objects placed in a plastic bag and sold as key rings, or they are abused by their owners who don't provide the foods and environment necessary just to sustain life. Now, that's unethical! As far as seeing an emotion that we cannot absolutely know exists in these reptiles, I will not debate you on that because the fact is, no one can really know for a certainty. But, what I will say about reptiles is that there are emotions that they feel, perhaps not like humans, but emotions nonetheless. For instance, reptiles may not vocalize pain, but they do feel pain. I have seen and heard it with both my water turtle and sulcata. They obviously feel fear, stress, even anger...so why not love? Why do reptiles feel all these other emotions, but not love? When I stare into my sulcata's eyes, and make a long blink, he imitates me. I look straight into his eyes and say, "I love you so much," and at that moment, I sense he's feeling the same. Now, you can say I'm off my rocker, but animals do have senses that humans don't have...and it may not be the "love" that humans experience, but it's close to it. No ones intellectual's studies of animal/reptiles behaviors could convince me that I'm wrong about this even if I can't prove it. That's all I have to say for now.


----------



## lovelyrosepetal

I agree with you sibi. I think tortoises and other animals can feel love and I think that they can be happy with their owners. My son had a chameleon in Hawaii. It was such a cool reptile. We loved it. At first I could not get it to eat, but one day I asked it to please eat, I did not want it to die because I loved it and right after I said this, it looked at me, right into my eyes, opened up and ate. I was so happy. You cannot convince me that tortoises cannot be happy with being captive. cemmons has Cooper who obviously loves him and maggie3fan has Bob who, I think, adores her. There are so many other examples than these. I truly don't know why anyone would want to tell someone else that they can't do this and they can't do that with their own lives and their own money. If you have the means and you take care of them, there is nothing unethical about it. If you are not doing a proper job of taking care of these animals than that would be unethical. I think that by having a demand, these tortoises will never become extinct and that is a good thing.


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## Cowboy_Ken

I don't know so much about emotions but i think Bob just gave me the finger when I woke him up.




Cowboy_Ken said:


> I don't know so much about emotions but i think Bob just gave me the finger when I woke him up.



Ummm Fred.


----------



## Floof

OH. I thought of a good one. I would like to have a dish sponge that isn't always covered in bits of food and grime and bacteria and yuck, but my roommate claims that wanting that makes ME incredibly selfish.

Everything is selfish to someone in some context or another. I think it's incredibly selfish to deny passionate, caring animal lovers the chance to experience and care for these animals just because YOU, one singular person, just so happen to have the _opinion_ that it might be "unethical." Face facts. The reason reptiles are so widely and successfully kept is because they DO do well in captivity. Many, many species THRIVE in captivity. So long as they're fed and cared for correctly, they're healthy and happy. For all any of us here knows, your definition of a large enclosure for a Uromastyx is a 20 gallon tank. For all any of us here knows, you have a basking rock, a hide, an inch of dirt, and that's it. For all we know, you only feed it once a week or so. Not saying that's the case, of course. My point is, if your uromastyx is truly unhappy in captivity, how do we know that's not for some other reason that you fail to notice?

On another point, you seem to have deemed that any escape behavior at all is automatically a sign that the animal is terribly unhappy in captivity. Not hungry, not (in the case of many pet bearded dragons) wanting a bit of exercise, not needing to poop, not trying to figure out why there's another snake/lizard/tortoise in the glass looking back at them. None of that. Just wanting freedom.

I'm just going to take a look at my animals here for a moment, because, frankly, those are the animals I'm familiar with. Just like you based this whole thread solely on your experience with some unknown number of animals under an unknown quality of care.

Most of my snakes are fed every two weeks. Occasionally, feeding day will be pushed out an extra week. Sometimes it'll be moved up a few days.

Right around the 13-15 day mark, my woma python, who, the majority of the time, is quite satisfied and happy with exploring the limits of his world (and the limits of the couch when I bring him out solely for my own benefit of being able to bask in his glory), will begin to search for the mysterious mechanism that makes the front of his cage magically swing open whenever I (strange primate creature that brings food and water and cleans up that stinky mess that comes out of his bum every few weeks) go to check on him. Does that mean he suddenly yearns for freedom and laments his captivity? No... He's just hungry.

Two of my snakes are rosy boas. These two snakes are perpetually hungry. It can be three weeks since they were last fed, or it can be three days. They are always cruising around looking for food. They don't push and shove at the confines of their tubs. They don't appear to loathe their captivity. When I open their tubs to check in on them, clean their poop, and so on, they do not automatically dive for freedom. They do not make any moves to leave their comfortable pieces of territory. They poke their heads over the lip of the tub and they check to see if there's a mouse nearby that needs to be eaten. One will either crawl out and investigate my hand or return to nosing around her enclosure if there's no food; the other will continue leaning out of the tub and, if given the opportunity, test to see if my fingers are food. They do not yearn for freedom. They do not lament their captivity. They just really like to eat.

My Schneider's skink does this thing where she'll start scrabbling at the sides of her enclosure about every other day. Can you guess how often she eats? Yup... Every other day. Once she has a full belly, and on that off day that she's learned the Food God won't be delivering, she's quite content to bask, explore, burrow. She does not yearn for freedom. She does not lament her captivity. And the best part about this one? She's a wild-caught animal, so she, at one time, knew exactly what this "freedom" thing is that you go on about. It took her only a week to settle in and recognize that nothing would be eating her in this new slice of territory she'd been relegated to. Once she came to realize that, she settled down and became very satisfied with her new lot in life.

I remember when my dear little tortoise still lived in an all glass enclosure. He did no glass dancing. He made no attempts to escape. During heat waves when the combination of his MVB and the lack of household air conditioning was just a bit too powerful for his enclosure, I would open his door, sit on the couch, and watch as he moved to the door, sat in the opening, and observed his "kingdom." The only times I have ever seen this animal unhappy in captivity? When I first took him in, as a very poorly cared for little animal, and then during a brief period when I had to take away his precious dirt to deal with a snake mite infestation. So long as he has his dirt, his food, a good sized enclosure to explore, and the right temperatures, he's perfectly happy right where he is.

Why is it always that, by the time I come up with the right words to express what I want to say, the conversation has already ended? LOL. Oh well. It will drive me nuts if I do not say my piece, even if this debate IS long since over.

All this talk of cookies makes me really, really want pumpkin chocolate chip cookies. Mmmm...


----------



## BowandWalter

Floof said:


> OH. I thought of a good one. I would like to have a dish sponge that isn't always covered in bits of food and grime and bacteria and yuck, but my roommate claims that wanting that makes ME incredibly selfish.
> 
> Everything is selfish to someone in some context or another. I think it's incredibly selfish to deny passionate, caring animal lovers the chance to experience and care for these animals just because YOU, one singular person, just so happen to have the opinion that it might be "unethical." Face facts. The reason reptiles are so widely and successfully kept is because they DO do well in captivity. Many, many species THRIVE in captivity. So long as they're fed and cared for correctly, they're healthy and happy. For all any of us here knows, your definition of a large enclosure for a Uromastyx is a 20 gallon tank. For all any of us here knows, you have a basking rock, a hide, an inch of dirt, and that's it. For all we know, you only feed it once a week or so. Not saying that's the case, of course. My point is, if your uromastyx is truly unhappy in captivity, how do we know that's not for some other reason that you fail to notice?
> 
> On another point, you seem to have deemed that any escape behavior at all is automatically a sign that the animal is terribly unhappy in captivity. Not hungry, not (in the case of many pet bearded dragons) wanting a bit of exercise, not needing to poop, not trying to figure out why there's another snake/lizard/tortoise in the glass looking back at them. None of that. Just wanting freedom.
> 
> I'm just going to take a look at my animals here for a moment, because, frankly, those are the animals I'm familiar with. Just like you based this whole thread solely on your experience with some unknown number of animals under an unknown quality of care.
> 
> Most of my snakes are fed every two weeks. Occasionally, feeding day will be pushed out an extra week. Sometimes it'll be moved up a few days.
> 
> Right around the 13-15 day mark, my woma python, who, the majority of the time, is quite satisfied and happy with exploring the limits of his world (and the limits of the couch when I bring him out solely for my own benefit of being able to bask in his glory), will begin to search for the mysterious mechanism that makes the front of his cage magically swing open whenever I (strange primate creature that brings food and water and cleans up that stinky mess that comes out of his bum every few weeks) go to check on him. Does that mean he suddenly yearns for freedom and laments his captivity? No... He's just hungry.
> 
> Two of my snakes are rosy boas. These two snakes are perpetually hungry. It can be three weeks since they were last fed, or it can be three days. They are always cruising around looking for food. They don't push and shove at the confines of their tubs. They don't appear to loathe their captivity. When I open their tubs to check in on them, clean their poop, and so on, they do not automatically dive for freedom. They do not make any moves to leave their comfortable pieces of territory. They poke their heads over the lip of the tub and they check to see if there's a mouse nearby that needs to be eaten. One will either crawl out and investigate my hand or return to nosing around her enclosure if there's no food; the other will continue leaning out of the tub and, if given the opportunity, test to see if my fingers are food. They do not yearn for freedom. They do not lament their captivity. They just really like to eat.
> 
> My Schneider's skink does this thing where she'll start scrabbling at the sides of her enclosure about every other day. Can you guess how often she eats? Yup... Every other day. Once she has a full belly, and on that off day that she's learned the Food God won't be delivering, she's quite content to bask, explore, burrow. She does not yearn for freedom. She does not lament her captivity. And the best part about this one? She's a wild-caught animal, so she, at one time, knew exactly what this "freedom" thing is that you go on about. It took her only a week to settle in and recognize that nothing would be eating her in this new slice of territory she'd been relegated to. Once she came to realize that, she settled down and became very satisfied with her new lot in life.
> 
> I remember when my dear little tortoise still lived in an all glass enclosure. He did no glass dancing. He made no attempts to escape. During heat waves when the combination of his MVB and the lack of household air conditioning was just a bit too powerful for his enclosure, I would open his door, sit on the couch, and watch as he moved to the door, sat in the opening, and observed his "kingdom." The only times I have ever seen this animal unhappy in captivity? When I first took him in, as a very poorly cared for little animal, and then during a brief period when I had to take away his precious dirt to deal with a snake mite infestation. So long as he has his dirt, his food, a good sized enclosure to explore, and the right temperatures, he's perfectly happy right where he is.
> 
> Why is it always that, by the time I come up with the right words to express what I want to say, the conversation has already ended? LOL. Oh well. It will drive me nuts if I do not say my piece, even if this debate IS long since over.
> 
> All this talk of cookies makes me really, really want pumpkin chocolate chip cookies. Mmmm...



This is awesome, and perfect. You lie about not being eloquent in a discussion.


----------



## bigred

Wow I cant believe I wasted that much time reading this whole thing


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## lynnedit

Yes, Floof, you are very eloquent. This is a very tangled topic, but I am glad it was introduced, and have enjoyed reading the comments. 
But why do I still want cookies too? Warm from the oven?


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## Holycow

Hmmm... Yes.


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## Floof

Thank you. I'm flattered. I'm really not nearly as good a wordsmith as many, many, many people here. It really did take me several hours of sitting and thinking this whole subject over to figure out how to form a coherent paragraph (or 7). I just need to start reading dictionaries when I'm bored. Or, god forbid, take a speech class. LOL. 

Aaah, Lynne, evil! Now I want warm cookies, too...  I just have these room temperature, super-sweet sugar things.


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## shellysmom

LOL, I couldn't resist coming back to take a look. My comments have made some people sad, or at least perplexed.. I just want to clarify, if reptile ownership were to be banned, (which is NEVER going to happen) I strongly feel that EVERYONE who currently owns reptiles should be able to keep those that they already have, not just me. I wouldn't be special in that regard. It's called being grandfathered in. It happens all the time when new laws are made. I love and am very attached to the animals in my family, so I wouldn't want to lose them, specifically. But, I would be very happy to live in a world where wild animals just lived in the wild, where they belong. Is that really such a horrible, foreign idea to people? Besides, my opinion doesn't even matter, because we are so far past the point of no return when it comes to having reptiles as pets, nothing is going to change in that regard. Sure, certain reptile species might be restricted in some locations for specific reasons, but who cares. Even restricted species can still be kept with the proper permit, so just get a freaking permit if you feel the absolute need to have a certain animal. How I feel in my heart obviously does not match up with reality, and never will, so I, personally, am not a threat to anyone's hobby or livelihood. I am WAY more focused on matters related to wild chelonian conservation and pet tortoise rescue, than I am in trying to take someone's hobby away. Also, I don't quite understand why some people here have such a hard time believing there are animal welfare and animal rights people on this forum? Every single person is here because they love or want to learn more about tortoises. How on Earth does that exclude AW or AR folks? Frankly, I'm surprised there aren't more of them here. Or, maybe there are, but they're smarter than me and just lurk .


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## EKLC

It's not ethical the way 90% of reptile owners keep their reptiles.

If you're doing it right, I would say not only is it ethical, but you're giving that animal a better life than they would have in the wild. I would say constant temperatures, no predators, no parasites, water readily available, and a constant supply of diverse and plentiful foods would make for a stress free animal.


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## ascott

I love tortoise as well as about a gazillion other critters that try to share this world with us.

I have a special place for CDTs, just do and could not tell you how that exactly happened...I find that I also have developed a soft spot for redfoot torts as well and their very different personalities and quirks in comparison to CDTs....I am blessed that I have the opportunity to have learned the quirks of these two species....as well as the RES turtles---pigly little critters....

I also LOVE LOVE LOVE dogs---of which I have two that are discards from other folks who thought they were absolutely adorable when they were little and then did not want to deal with them when "one day" they discovered they had no manners and should just be taken to the pound...well, I have the two huligans here and they make me crazy (absolutely crazy ) at least a million times a day each and every day---but I would have nothing else to whoop and hollar at, with, to if they had indeed been taken to the pound....so, well---they will live out their days here just as they are---pains in my rump...lol

I am a proud animal activist ; however, I believe everyone has had their own experiences with animal control, peta and the like--so not many two opinions of that "beast" will ever be the same--right? 

Conservationists are a group of folks banning together for a common goal on behalf of animals---hence an animal rights group---so, to me this is not a bad thing, right?

Wildlife rehabbers are a group of folks dedicated to caring for a group of animals and rally together to educate people on the good and bad options for caring for an animal in the best manner to offer the best life for the animal, right? hence an animal rights group--so, to me this is not a bad thing, right?

PETA; completely different organization that has gone so far off the actual issue of saving animals that they are now just a silly point for an animal rights group reference, right? well to me anyhow...

Animal control; now this is a really tricky one for me---I have met some folks that wear this label, some have been the most dedicated, compassionate folks and are truly dedicated to save the animal and fully punish (with the pitiful enforcement allowed of laws to do so) the person that has created the pain, anguish and lingering death of an animal....however, I know that there are some that are nothing but idiots (this I know only of in my life by hearing others stories, thankfully not by first hand experience) however, I don't feel that this group of folks can be listed as animal rights groups---they are forced to be dog collectors/ cat collectors/ dead animal pick up crew/ and every other horrible thing that has to be dealt with by humans simply to satisfy and relieve other humans from being, well humane.

I suppose I could go on and on and I am sure you are all like, stop already....

I have a right as a great human to pretty much do whatever I want to---essentially that is if it is alright with all of the other humans-----I think that it would be a grand party if we all just realized that when this thread was started, likely that forum member, may have been in a funk, may have been feeling a bit sensitive to that human connection we all likely feel from time to time--that ever relentless need to feel free---to not feel blocked in--to not feel restricted---to wish we could TRULY be free--I know that I have those moments and I am not entirely a weirdo--so I am confident some of us have had that same moment....

I sometimes look at the CDTs here and feel really sad that they are no longer able to walk for miles --on their own desire--and in which ever direction they desire or are driven to---alas, I know in my right mind that these days a number of lethal obstacles are in their path--relentless obstacles, selfish obstacles, obstacles of our human progress....but it does not change the idealistic fantasy daydreams I have of what it must have been like for them to have in the past actually tasted that sense of free to do.....now, yes, they lounge about, they have food brought to them, they have soaks, they have a nice warm and soft rubbermaid tub waiting for them when there is a need to tuck into the house for awhile (or a few months)....but man, I know that as a simple human--I have a deep rooted evolutionary seed that will forever try to grow a bit---to try to capture moments of freedom---to capture moments of oneness from time to time to refuel my soul---well, before I am ruffled back into this worlds reality and back to it I must go....

So for tonight, I wish to be a compassionate human (while I still have some) and feel empathy for the forum member here who simply shared a moment with us and say to you, yes--there are times when the raw, simple human here absolutely "feels" very unethical for thinking I am in any way a comparison to the wild for these creatures that have made it millions of years much better off without the human interference than they are now faring with us trying to clean up some of our messy handy work....I would in a second, trade hosting them for times to change to go back to there being a norm of wild vs a norm of captive....I would love to return to simply being able to be out hiking and being blessed with seeing one in its own home--the wild.

Now, before anyone bothers to admonish me as one of the freak animal rights activists---let me say, I am too darn grown and too darn old to be upset by negative narrow minded comments, but will always LOVE to encounter those that are open minded to others views and feelings without mistaking those varied views and feelings as a personal attack....


----------



## Tortus

sibi said:


> Now that most of the squabble is over, I'll jump in. The question was, "Do you think it's ethical to keep reptiles as pets?" Yes, it's certainly ethical, provided you care for them and try to simulate an environment similar to what's natural for them. That environment may not be sufficient but it will be necessary for them to survive and grow. Today, all kinds of reptiles, including our tortoises, are being exploited and sold to anyone who is willing to pay for it. Often times, they become objects placed in a plastic bag and sold as key rings, or they are abused by their owners who don't provide the foods and environment necessary just to sustain life. Now, that's unethical! As far as seeing an emotion that we cannot absolutely know exists in these reptiles, I will not debate you on that because the fact is, no one can really know for a certainty. But, what I will say about reptiles is that there are emotions that they feel, perhaps not like humans, but emotions nonetheless. For instance, reptiles may not vocalize pain, but they do feel pain. I have seen and heard it with both my water turtle and sulcata. They obviously feel fear, stress, even anger...so why not love? Why do reptiles feel all these other emotions, but not love? When I stare into my sulcata's eyes, and make a long blink, he imitates me. I look straight into his eyes and say, "I love you so much," and at that moment, I sense he's feeling the same. Now, you can say I'm off my rocker, but animals do have senses that humans don't have...and it may not be the "love" that humans experience, but it's close to it. No ones intellectual's studies of animal/reptiles behaviors could convince me that I'm wrong about this even if I can't prove it. That's all I have to say for now.



I guess if they see you as the food provider, they could feel a form of love. When I give my dog an especially good treat he'll snuggle up next to me on the sofa. Dogs are social animals, but I'm open to anything. 

Someone mentioned birds and I'm convinced they feel love for their owner, or "mate". I had a Congo African Grey that would snuggle up and take naps with me. It followed me all around, tried to yack up food and feed me...kinda gross but that's what they do. 

I hope this thread can continue to be about cookies. I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings and some seem to be taking it very personally. It's just a thought I had and maybe I shouldn't have put it on this forum. My uromastyx doesn't scratch at the glass all day, just particularly during the times I mentioned. Food and potty time. Some days it doesn't do it at all and chills in the cave or on the basking rock.




shellysmom said:


> LOL, I couldn't resist coming back to take a look. My comments have made some people sad, or at least perplexed.. I just want to clarify, if reptile ownership were to be banned, (which is NEVER going to happen) I strongly feel that EVERYONE who currently owns reptiles should be able to keep those that they already have, not just me. I wouldn't be special in that regard. It's called being grandfathered in. It happens all the time when new laws are made. I love and am very attached to the animals in my family, so I wouldn't want to lose them, specifically. But, I would be very happy to live in a world where wild animals just lived in the wild, where they belong. Is that really such a horrible, foreign idea to people? Besides, my opinion doesn't even matter, because we are so far past the point of no return when it comes to having reptiles as pets, nothing is going to change in that regard. Sure, certain reptile species might be restricted in some locations for specific reasons, but who cares. Even restricted species can still be kept with the proper permit, so just get a freaking permit if you feel the absolute need to have a certain animal. How I feel in my heart obviously does not match up with reality, and never will, so I, personally, am not a threat to anyone's hobby or livelihood. I am WAY more focused on matters related to wild chelonian conservation and pet tortoise rescue, than I am in trying to take someone's hobby away. Also, I don't quite understand why some people here have such a hard time believing there are animal welfare and animal rights people on this forum? Every single person is here because they love or want to learn more about tortoises. How on Earth does that exclude AW or AR folks? Frankly, I'm surprised there aren't more of them here. Or, maybe there are, but they're smarter than me and just lurk .



Well said. Some people seem to be kicking and screaming because they want to continue buying reptiles and think someone here is trying to stop them. I really don't see that at all.

I got your point, though. This is a fun hobby. They're nice to look at, care for, and watch grow. Hell, maybe they even grow to like their big walking food dispensers. But they belong somewhere else and would be there if given the chance. Also, the reptile trade isn't full of people who care for their animals. Most people don't know how to care for them at all. They just see it, think it's cute, buy it, and it's all down hill from there. Growing up I knew a lot of people with reptiles. And they were all kept in tiny little tanks. A friend had two yellow bellies in a small tub in his back yard. The people selling them don't care if you keep a 2 foot iguana in a 20 gallon tank and feed it iceberg lettuce (I've seen this more than once) or if you take it home and eat it. 

I don't think just anyone should be given the opportunity to purchase a reptile. I wouldn't mind seeing permits required. And you'd need to pass a test to get the permit so you know what you're getting yourself into. Little Timmy wouldn't be able to walk into a pet shop and beg mommy for a tortoise unless mommy has a permit.

Now, peanut butter or chocolate chip?


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## wellington

Tortus, it's just some are very passionate and can't understand anything but fact. It's just fine that you shared your thought with us. It's not your problem if some can't understand others, or think that others can't have a different point of view. People are always going to try and ban things, and I think a certain person has had to fight too much to have what they want. It's unfortunate they don't want to be here anymore, but that's not your problem or fault, that's theirs. My Uro will scratch at the glass. I take him out let him climb around a little and then he goes back and he's content. He actually only does it at certain times. I always wonder if these times would normally be breeding times, hmmm.




shellysmom said:


> LOL, I couldn't resist coming back to take a look. My comments have made some people sad, or at least perplexed.. I just want to clarify, if reptile ownership were to be banned, (which is NEVER going to happen) I strongly feel that EVERYONE who currently owns reptiles should be able to keep those that they already have, not just me. I wouldn't be special in that regard. It's called being grandfathered in. It happens all the time when new laws are made. I love and am very attached to the animals in my family, so I wouldn't want to lose them, specifically. But, I would be very happy to live in a world where wild animals just lived in the wild, where they belong. Is that really such a horrible, foreign idea to people? Besides, my opinion doesn't even matter, because we are so far past the point of no return when it comes to having reptiles as pets, nothing is going to change in that regard. Sure, certain reptile species might be restricted in some locations for specific reasons, but who cares. Even restricted species can still be kept with the proper permit, so just get a freaking permit if you feel the absolute need to have a certain animal. How I feel in my heart obviously does not match up with reality, and never will, so I, personally, am not a threat to anyone's hobby or livelihood. I am WAY more focused on matters
> related to wild chelonian conservation and pet tortoise rescue, than I am in trying to take someone's hobby away. Also, I don't quite understand why some people here have such a hard time believing there are animal welfare and animal rights people on this forum? Every single person is here because they love or want to learn more about tortoises. How on Earth does that exclude AW or AR folks? Frankly, I'm surprised there aren't more of them here. Or, maybe there are, but they're smarter than me and just lurk .



I think the certain person was more upset that you would be fine with the ban, because they have had to fight too keep what they have or have wanted. Also the fact that you have yours, but you want to ban anyone after you being able to enjoy the same things you get to enjoy. I don't think they thought that only you could keep yours, but the rest of us couldn't.


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## Tortus

I actually did this to get other points of view. I like a civil debate because it can change people's perspective, myself included, but when people start getting personal it feels like an attack. 

Maybe I expressed my opinions a little too strongly yesterday. I think some people sound angry because deep down, even though they're making long posts trying to justify keeping reptiles as pets, they just might feel a little of what I'm feeling right now. Just a guess. I could be completely wrong about everything. 

I'll just sit back and munch for a while. Didn't mean to **** anyone off.


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## wellington

Hey, what I say is better being pissed off, then pissed on LOL. Sit back, get some cookies and don't worry. Everyone has the right to their opinion. I think we all have thought about it at one time or another, whether with torts, lizards, snakes, dogs, cats, etc. I like going to zoos. However, I would rather their were no zoos and I could see them in the wild. Not that I don't understand the good that most zoos are doing, it's the fact that if humans didn't screw everything up for their own greed we wouldn't need zoos, animal rights groups or animal rescues, etc. the fact is, we can't go back. The animals I have, although not rescues, I feel they are way better in my care then someone else's. No one I know would have spent the money I have to save my dog. They all think I'm nuts, and would have put her down. So, I kinda feel like I am rescuing them, before they get into the hands of someone, that probably wouldn't or couldn't afford to spend or do what I will. Because of human greed, we do need to save the animals. They do not have enough of their own lands and food to stay sustainable. With out human ownership and breeding of lots of animals, lots of animals, would already be extinct. Animal lovers are the only voice they have. Unfortunately, we can't stop man from constantly invading animals wild homes, but we can bring them into our homes and give them the best life possible in captivity.


----------



## terryo

ascott said:


> I love tortoise as well as about a gazillion other critters that try to share this world with us.
> 
> I have a special place for CDTs, just do and could not tell you how that exactly happened...I find that I also have developed a soft spot for redfoot torts as well and their very different personalities and quirks in comparison to CDTs....I am blessed that I have the opportunity to have learned the quirks of these two species....as well as the RES turtles---pigly little critters....
> 
> I also LOVE LOVE LOVE dogs---of which I have two that are discards from other folks who thought they were absolutely adorable when they were little and then did not want to deal with them when "one day" they discovered they had no manners and should just be taken to the pound...well, I have the two huligans here and they make me crazy (absolutely crazy ) at least a million times a day each and every day---but I would have nothing else to whoop and hollar at, with, to if they had indeed been taken to the pound....so, well---they will live out their days here just as they are---pains in my rump...lol
> 
> I am a proud animal activist ; however, I believe everyone has had their own experiences with animal control, peta and the like--so not many two opinions of that "beast" will ever be the same--right?
> 
> Conservationists are a group of folks banning together for a common goal on behalf of animals---hence an animal rights group---so, to me this is not a bad thing, right?
> 
> Wildlife rehabbers are a group of folks dedicated to caring for a group of animals and rally together to educate people on the good and bad options for caring for an animal in the best manner to offer the best life for the animal, right? hence an animal rights group--so, to me this is not a bad thing, right?
> 
> PETA; completely different organization that has gone so far off the actual issue of saving animals that they are now just a silly point for an animal rights group reference, right? well to me anyhow...
> 
> Animal control; now this is a really tricky one for me---I have met some folks that wear this label, some have been the most dedicated, compassionate folks and are truly dedicated to save the animal and fully punish (with the pitiful enforcement allowed of laws to do so) the person that has created the pain, anguish and lingering death of an animal....however, I know that there are some that are nothing but idiots (this I know only of in my life by hearing others stories, thankfully not by first hand experience) however, I don't feel that this group of folks can be listed as animal rights groups---they are forced to be dog collectors/ cat collectors/ dead animal pick up crew/ and every other horrible thing that has to be dealt with by humans simply to satisfy and relieve other humans from being, well humane.
> 
> I suppose I could go on and on and I am sure you are all like, stop already....
> 
> I have a right as a great human to pretty much do whatever I want to---essentially that is if it is alright with all of the other humans-----I think that it would be a grand party if we all just realized that when this thread was started, likely that forum member, may have been in a funk, may have been feeling a bit sensitive to that human connection we all likely feel from time to time--that ever relentless need to feel free---to not feel blocked in--to not feel restricted---to wish we could TRULY be free--I know that I have those moments and I am not entirely a weirdo--so I am confident some of us have had that same moment....
> 
> I sometimes look at the CDTs here and feel really sad that they are no longer able to walk for miles --on their own desire--and in which ever direction they desire or are driven to---alas, I know in my right mind that these days a number of lethal obstacles are in their path--relentless obstacles, selfish obstacles, obstacles of our human progress....but it does not change the idealistic fantasy daydreams I have of what it must have been like for them to have in the past actually tasted that sense of free to do.....now, yes, they lounge about, they have food brought to them, they have soaks, they have a nice warm and soft rubbermaid tub waiting for them when there is a need to tuck into the house for awhile (or a few months)....but man, I know that as a simple human--I have a deep rooted evolutionary seed that will forever try to grow a bit---to try to capture moments of freedom---to capture moments of oneness from time to time to refuel my soul---well, before I am ruffled back into this worlds reality and back to it I must go....
> 
> So for tonight, I wish to be a compassionate human (while I still have some) and feel empathy for the forum member here who simply shared a moment with us and say to you, yes--there are times when the raw, simple human here absolutely "feels" very unethical for thinking I am in any way a comparison to the wild for these creatures that have made it millions of years much better off without the human interference than they are now faring with us trying to clean up some of our messy handy work....I would in a second, trade hosting them for times to change to go back to there being a norm of wild vs a norm of captive....I would love to return to simply being able to be out hiking and being blessed with seeing one in its own home--the wild.
> 
> Now, before anyone bothers to admonish me as one of the freak animal rights activists---let me say, I am too darn grown and too darn old to be upset by negative narrow minded comments, but will always LOVE to encounter those that are open minded to others views and feelings without mistaking those varied views and feelings as a personal attack....



Once again Angela, you have taken everything I wished I could say, and put it down so eloquently on paper. That was a wonderful post....thank you.


----------



## bigred

terryo said:


> ascott said:
> 
> 
> 
> I love tortoise as well as about a gazillion other critters that try to share this world with us.
> 
> I have a special place for CDTs, just do and could not tell you how that exactly happened...I find that I also have developed a soft spot for redfoot torts as well and their very different personalities and quirks in comparison to CDTs....I am blessed that I have the opportunity to have learned the quirks of these two species....as well as the RES turtles---pigly little critters....
> 
> I also LOVE LOVE LOVE dogs---of which I have two that are discards from other folks who thought they were absolutely adorable when they were little and then did not want to deal with them when "one day" they discovered they had no manners and should just be taken to the pound...well, I have the two huligans here and they make me crazy (absolutely crazy ) at least a million times a day each and every day---but I would have nothing else to whoop and hollar at, with, to if they had indeed been taken to the pound....so, well---they will live out their days here just as they are---pains in my rump...lol
> 
> I am a proud animal activist ; however, I believe everyone has had their own experiences with animal control, peta and the like--so not many two opinions of that "beast" will ever be the same--right?
> 
> Conservationists are a group of folks banning together for a common goal on behalf of animals---hence an animal rights group---so, to me this is not a bad thing, right?
> 
> Wildlife rehabbers are a group of folks dedicated to caring for a group of animals and rally together to educate people on the good and bad options for caring for an animal in the best manner to offer the best life for the animal, right? hence an animal rights group--so, to me this is not a bad thing, right?
> 
> PETA; completely different organization that has gone so far off the actual issue of saving animals that they are now just a silly point for an animal rights group reference, right? well to me anyhow...
> 
> Animal control; now this is a really tricky one for me---I have met some folks that wear this label, some have been the most dedicated, compassionate folks and are truly dedicated to save the animal and fully punish (with the pitiful enforcement allowed of laws to do so) the person that has created the pain, anguish and lingering death of an animal....however, I know that there are some that are nothing but idiots (this I know only of in my life by hearing others stories, thankfully not by first hand experience) however, I don't feel that this group of folks can be listed as animal rights groups---they are forced to be dog collectors/ cat collectors/ dead animal pick up crew/ and every other horrible thing that has to be dealt with by humans simply to satisfy and relieve other humans from being, well humane.
> 
> I suppose I could go on and on and I am sure you are all like, stop already....
> 
> I have a right as a great human to pretty much do whatever I want to---essentially that is if it is alright with all of the other humans-----I think that it would be a grand party if we all just realized that when this thread was started, likely that forum member, may have been in a funk, may have been feeling a bit sensitive to that human connection we all likely feel from time to time--that ever relentless need to feel free---to not feel blocked in--to not feel restricted---to wish we could TRULY be free--I know that I have those moments and I am not entirely a weirdo--so I am confident some of us have had that same moment....
> 
> I sometimes look at the CDTs here and feel really sad that they are no longer able to walk for miles --on their own desire--and in which ever direction they desire or are driven to---alas, I know in my right mind that these days a number of lethal obstacles are in their path--relentless obstacles, selfish obstacles, obstacles of our human progress....but it does not change the idealistic fantasy daydreams I have of what it must have been like for them to have in the past actually tasted that sense of free to do.....now, yes, they lounge about, they have food brought to them, they have soaks, they have a nice warm and soft rubbermaid tub waiting for them when there is a need to tuck into the house for awhile (or a few months)....but man, I know that as a simple human--I have a deep rooted evolutionary seed that will forever try to grow a bit---to try to capture moments of freedom---to capture moments of oneness from time to time to refuel my soul---well, before I am ruffled back into this worlds reality and back to it I must go....
> 
> So for tonight, I wish to be a compassionate human (while I still have some) and feel empathy for the forum member here who simply shared a moment with us and say to you, yes--there are times when the raw, simple human here absolutely "feels" very unethical for thinking I am in any way a comparison to the wild for these creatures that have made it millions of years much better off without the human interference than they are now faring with us trying to clean up some of our messy handy work....I would in a second, trade hosting them for times to change to go back to there being a norm of wild vs a norm of captive....I would love to return to simply being able to be out hiking and being blessed with seeing one in its own home--the wild.
> 
> Now, before anyone bothers to admonish me as one of the freak animal rights activists---let me say, I am too darn grown and too darn old to be upset by negative narrow minded comments, but will always LOVE to encounter those that are open minded to others views and feelings without mistaking those varied views and feelings as a personal attack....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again Angela, you have taken everything I wished I could say, and put it down so eloquently on paper. That was a wonderful post....thank you.
Click to expand...


Yes I agree, Angela is always very great with her posts. She always explains everything perfect


----------



## Tortus

*Catches cookie crumbs*

That is an excellent post. Very well stated.

One argument from some that gets me though is stating that by being in our care, they're free from parasites, predators, foul weather, etc.

I really think this is one of the worst ways to justify keeping them in our care. I don't believe they know any of that when they're trying to get lose from their enclosures and obtain their natural range. I've thought the same thing myself for years, but now it just feels like I was trying to supplement my desire to keep them as pets. All that talk is just for our peace of mind. Not theirs.


----------



## Floof

The brain fails me on forming words to respond right now. Darn it. lol.

One thing I wanted to say: Maybe my understanding here is limited, but, from where I stand, there seems to be a drastic difference between Animal Rights and Animal Welfare...

AR brings you people like PETA and HSUS who take it too far. Animals deserve human rights... Like lawyers. Humans shouldn't have any hand in any captive animal... Not even dogs, cats, cattle. Forget hunting for sustenance. That's as bad as murder. For all intents and purposes, HSUS and PETA appear to believe that animals are better off put to sleep than in captivity. Forget having them "grandfathered" in.

Animal Welfare, on the other hand, brings you people who care about the actual welfare, the actual quality of life, of animals. They don't seek to ban your ability to have a dog or enjoy the majesty that is the satisfied and well-kept captive snake, lizard, tortoise. They seek to educate and ensure that those captive animals ARE given the care they deserve.

Again, maybe my definition of these things is limited, but I wanted to share my understanding of what exactly AR and AW are. In hopes of understanding each other better.

Oh... And chocolate chip all the way.


----------



## Tortus

Floof said:


> The brain fails me on forming words to respond right now. Darn it. lol.
> 
> One thing I wanted to say: Maybe my understanding here is limited, but, from where I stand, there seems to be a drastic difference between Animal Rights and Animal Welfare...
> 
> AR brings you people like PETA and HSUS who take it too far. Animals deserve human rights... Like lawyers. Humans shouldn't have any hand in any captive animal... Not even dogs, cats, cattle. Forget hunting for sustenance. That's as bad as murder. For all intents and purposes, HSUS and PETA appear to believe that animals are better off put to sleep than in captivity. Forget having them "grandfathered" in.
> 
> Animal Welfare, on the other hand, brings you people who care about the actual welfare, the actual quality of life, of animals. They don't seek to ban your ability to have a dog or enjoy the majesty that is the satisfied and well-kept captive snake, lizard, tortoise. They seek to educate and ensure that those captive animals ARE given the care they deserve.
> 
> Again, maybe my definition of these things is limited, but I wanted to share my understanding of what exactly AR and AW are. In hopes of understanding each other better.
> 
> Oh... And chocolate chip all the way.



Well that post confused me probably about as how many are confused about this thread in general. lol. Let's just all take it in.

I don't believe that most who profess a desire to promote "animal welfare" really know what that means. I have discussed this topic on another forum with people who are not particularly inclined to keep reptiles, but they seem to have some perspective. I'll quote one post from that forum and see what you think:



> I'm not sure that reptiles want anything other than food and proper temperature and moisture. I question whether they are even capable of suffering in any sense comparable to mammals. Their nervous system and brain structure is so different. They have no cerebral cortex so it's hard to see how there can be any self awareness to experience the pain.
> 
> If you look into the eyes of a cat or dog or horse or dolphin or whale or cow there's a soul for lack of a better word looking back at you. Reptiles can be interesting creatures but there is nothing behind their eyes. I guess it's why some people find them repulsive. BTW I'm not suggesting that people should harm reptiles for no good reason. Even if they don't suffer, they are important, unique, a product of billions of years of evolution and all that.



I'm not saying I agree with that post, because I don't. But is this how some of you feel? That is really the vibe I'm getting from some. As long as they're safe and healthy, they're content since they don't have the capacity to feel anything else.


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## wellington

I would never say that any living thing can't feel pain. I do however think they can not feel emotions, at least in the sense we think. I kiss my leopard on the head all the time. He will stick his head out for me to keep doing it. Well, that's what I think. I doubt he really is thinking that. He may like it as maybe it feels good or maybe he likes the kissing sound i make or maybe he is trying to look further to find an excape route. All animals are just as important as the next. If there were no humans, animals would survive, I do believe every single one of them would survive. Man has made/ruined this world in such a way, that we are now needed to protect and care for animals(animal is being used to cover all, reptiles, bugs, etc)and to keep them from extinction. Do we do it wrong, of course some of us do, hybrids, morphs, mutts, man is the most greedy living species. It's the world we live in now. Do we have the right to just leave them be? NO, we humans have made the world in such a way that, they could not survive with out our intervention. If we could turn the clock back a few hundred/thousand years, they wouldn't need us. We can't turn the clock back.


----------



## Floof

That's an interesting post, Tortus. Not entirely sure what you were hoping to get across by posting it, but it's interesting to see an "outsider's" (so to speak) view on reptiles. Kind of interesting to me that someone who just sees reptiles as something that exists doesn't see anything in their eyes, where those of us who appreciate and interact with them DO see that something.

If anything, it more reminds me the value of having reptiles (those who DO thrive in captivity--recognizing that some don't) in captivity where people like this can experience them and perhaps see that, _oh_, there is something more to them. Maybe they do deserve more than to have their heads chopped off for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. My younger brother is an example of this: the type of person to kill a snake without a thought because, oh, I don't like it or I don't care to find out whether it's venomous, but his interactions with my own pets have taught him that these animals deserve respect just like any other. That snakes aren't out to get him and shouldn't be killed thoughtlessly. Et cetera.

Eeeh, didn't see your edit until I was done typing all that. Like I already made clear, I certainly don't agree with that view of reptiles... But having emotion, feeling pain, however you characterize it, doesn't automatically mean that animal constantly yearns for freedom. They may not be completely "soulless" creatures, they may be able to feel and recognize pain, but that doesn't mean they garner the kind of intelligence and self-awareness that humans, we creatures who have mastered language and built societies, possess. I truly do think that a reptile who is given all that it could want or need is a happy reptile. Regular and appropriate food, the right temperature zones, the right humidity, clean water, enough space to explore and be content.

Maybe I see this side of their behavior easier because I can sympathize with it. I'm a complete and total homebody. Where some suffer if they aren't constantly out and about and doing SOMETHING (my roommate has a panic attack if she has to stay at home longer than an hour after she wakes up or gets off work; my dad goes stir-crazy if he doesn't get a vacation in a different state/region/country at least once every few months), I'm perfectly happy to be at home. As long as I have good food, heat and AC that works, and animals to dote on, I could go months without leaving the house and be perfectly happy.

Which brings up a good point. It's all in perspective. From where I sit, having your own little territory with all your needs met in that space is enough. From a different standpoint, that's just insane. Who would want to sit at home all day? You need to be out! Doing things! Constantly! The only thing "home" is useful for is to store your food and bed!

So maybe that's why I have trouble seeing what you see... To me, I see satisfied, happy animals who are content where they are so long as they have what they need, because that's exactly the way I am. I'm sure someone with wanderlust and/or a constant ache for "freedom" from the norm has a completely different interpretation of this or that behavior.


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## TortoiseBoy1999

I'll be honest, My reptiles never try to escape and never scratch their walls of their enclosures and they are very happy when I take them out (because I take them out very often) and by the time they get back in they are all tired out P) so I know that they are happy, healthy and content  So in my situation I do not think it is a bad thing to keep reptiles because there is no harm in doing it because they bring joy to me and they are safe, happy and healthy apposed to all the dangers in being in the wild


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## sueb4653

Floof said:


> That's an interesting post, Tortus. Not entirely sure what you were hoping to get across by posting it, but it's interesting to see an "outsider's" (so to speak) view on reptiles. Kind of interesting to me that someone who just sees reptiles as something that exists doesn't see anything in their eyes, where those of us who appreciate and interact with them DO see that something.
> 
> If anything, it more reminds me the value of having reptiles (those who DO thrive in captivity--recognizing that some don't) in captivity where people like this can experience them and perhaps see that, _oh_, there is something more to them. Maybe they do deserve more than to have their heads chopped off for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. My younger brother is an example of this: the type of person to kill a snake without a thought because, oh, I don't like it or I don't care to find out whether it's venomous, but his interactions with my own pets have taught him that these animals deserve respect just like any other. That snakes aren't out to get him and shouldn't be killed thoughtlessly. Et cetera.
> 
> Eeeh, didn't see your edit until I was done typing all that. Like I already made clear, I certainly don't agree with that view of reptiles... But having emotion, feeling pain, however you characterize it, doesn't automatically mean that animal constantly yearns for freedom. They may not be completely "soulless" creatures, they may be able to feel and recognize pain, but that doesn't mean they garner the kind of intelligence and self-awareness that humans, we creatures who have mastered language and built societies, possess. I truly do think that a reptile who is given all that it could want or need is a happy reptile. Regular and appropriate food, the right temperature zones, the right humidity, clean water, enough space to explore and be content.
> 
> Maybe I see this side of their behavior easier because I can sympathize with it. I'm a complete and total homebody. Where some suffer if they aren't constantly out and about and doing SOMETHING (my roommate has a panic attack if she has to stay at home longer than an hour after she wakes up or gets off work; my dad goes stir-crazy if he doesn't get a vacation in a different state/region/country at least once every few months), I'm perfectly happy to be at home. As long as I have good food, heat and AC that works, and animals to dote on, I could go months without leaving the house and be perfectly happy.
> 
> Which brings up a good point. It's all in perspective. From where I sit, having your own little territory with all your needs met in that space is enough. From a different standpoint, that's just insane. Who would want to sit at home all day? You need to be out! Doing things! Constantly! The only thing "home" is useful for is to store your food and bed!
> 
> So maybe that's why I have trouble seeing what you see... To me, I see satisfied, happy animals who are content where they are so long as they have what they need, because that's exactly the way I am. I'm sure someone with wanderlust and/or a constant ache for "freedom" from the norm has a completely different interpretation of this or that behavior.



In this thread someone had brought up birds and there freedom so to speak....in my experience of being a bird owner (parrots in particular) we had free flyers meaning their wings were not clipped and they flew. We would go to an open area and let them fly..point being they had the opportunity to fly away but they always came back.....so in my thinking birds ( birds related to turtles http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120523200301.htm) ,reptiles I think can be content in their environment like everyone has said as long as they are cared for.
hmm did that make sense?


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## kathyth

I think it is ethical to keep reptiles if you take good care of them and provide everyhting they need within reason to be happy.
The hrass is always greener on the other side.
I think many animals in the wild would love to have the food, lighting, protection, lack of extreme weather, lack of drought that are captives have.
In a perfect world without problems, plaching, etc. freedome always sounds good.
My reptiles have a good life and are well protected. They dont know it, but I do.

Just my two cents.


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## jaizei

Floof said:


> If anything, it more reminds me the value of having reptiles (those who DO thrive in captivity--recognizing that some don't) in captivity where people like this can experience them and perhaps see that, _oh_, there is something more to them. Maybe they do deserve more than to have their heads chopped off for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. My younger brother is an example of this: the type of person to kill a snake without a thought because, oh, I don't like it or I don't care to find out whether it's venomous, but his interactions with my own pets have taught him that these animals deserve respect just like any other. That snakes aren't out to get him and shouldn't be killed thoughtlessly. Et cetera.
> 
> Eeeh, didn't see your edit until I was done typing all that. Like I already made clear, I certainly don't agree with that view of reptiles... But having emotion, feeling pain, however you characterize it, doesn't automatically mean that animal constantly yearns for freedom. They may not be completely "soulless" creatures, they may be able to feel and recognize pain, but that doesn't mean they garner the kind of intelligence and self-awareness that humans, we creatures who have mastered language and built societies, possess. I truly do think that a reptile who is given all that it could want or need is a happy reptile. Regular and appropriate food, the right temperature zones, the right humidity, clean water, enough space to explore and be content.wakes up or gets off work; my dad goes stir-crazy if he doesn't get a vacation in a different state/region/country at least once every few months), I'm perfectly happy to be at home. As long as I have good food, heat and AC that works, and animals to dote on, I could go months without leaving the house and be perfectly happy.



I think it comes down to where you draw the line. At which point does an animal gain Rights; self awareness?, language?, complexity of society? Or if you do not think animals (minus humans) should ever have Rights, then when do they become deserving of respect? Many (most?) people have no problem killing pests (insects, rodents,etc). Where does killing animals out of convenience (or for fun) become unacceptable? 

It is a complex issue; any 'solution' is probably going to use gerrymandered logic and be hypocritical in some way. That is the problem some have with this issue - there is no easy answer. I do not think it is debatable in the sense that one side will 'win', but in the sense that everyone can get a better understanding of the other side.


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## Snowywood

Oh my gosh! Tub of ice cream for reading all these posts  

Iv rescue few animals in the past 2years, iv had to be careful, as am not aloud pets in my apartment, but I can't help myself. All are small and fluffy, or water babes or my torts. I did buy my two torts from a good breeder though and my next two chinchillas, as iv had my heart shattered with the deaths. Deaths from nothing iv done, from the owner before me. The state my last chinchilla was in, am surprised I had him for six months, he was very scared of us 'humans', but after five months, he was a huge turn around, hop on our laps, take treats, have a cuddle and I could tell he loved my girl hamster. He had a huge amount of time out 'in the home freedom', like all my pets do, and all have stupid amount of love, care and very spoilt. 

Sad story behind my Axolotl, he was going to get flushed down the loo, his owner was board of him. 

I adopted a two year old hamster, I had her for two months, totally spoilt and loved. Died in my arms :,( owner before me, dump her on the counter of 'pets at home' (I hate this place with a passion! All animals there need rescuing if you ask me!), said 'we don't want her anymore, she's two' and they just walked out. 

There is more iv adopted, but folk like these, really **** me off! I believe animals give us love back and on selfish note, make us very happy. When they do something adorable and we snap it, share it and see the feed back, we acted like proud parents, or is that just me lol. Sometimes it goes wrong, sad to read pets walking out on us :-( my heart would break if that was me. Iv had my cutest hamster escape into my walls, he came back, he knew he had it made with me, huge cage, food, water, comfort and cuddles. 

My two torts, I went for there breed as there small and the 'easy' breed to look after. Iv had them since march, iv studied them, heard what my breeder and vets had to say about them and there life style. Iv come up with an ideal design table/viv, can't be bought, so am building it, cost a fair bit for a poor ophthalmic dispenser, but I love them and am sure they know it. I'll do anything for them and the rest of my clang. 

That's my two pennies worth, I know we all have our own opinions on the matter. I guess my ideal world is, we have pets, we look after them the best we can and as close to there natural habitat. And people to study these animals before buying


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## dannel

*Grabs another ice cream tub* *reads Snowywood's post*


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## TortoiseBoy1999

Tortus, did you read my post?


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## Tom

So the premise of the OP is that because a reptile paws at the glass occasionally, it means they yearn to be free and abhor our horrible captive environments, and we are unethical for keeping them?

This is absurd. They paw at the glass because they wanna go that way. Not because they have some human-like sense of "freedom" or "captivity". In the wild they would simply walk in a given direction because they feel like it at that moment. We restrict the area they can roam out of necessity and for their own safety.

My opinion: If they are well cared for and their needs met, there is nothing unethical about keeping a pet reptile.


Floof, your assessment of AR vs. AW is right on. Good explanation.

Mike, stop that sissy talk and get your a** back on here. 100s or 1000s of people read these threads. You want them only reading emotion based animal rights non-sense. Threads like this CAN change people's minds. Which way do you want them swayed? You know what you gotta do. Keep typing.


Now then, with all the serious stuff done, I would really enjoy debating and or exploring the whole "aliens keeping us captive" thing. Now that would be a fun topic!


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## dannel

Tom said:


> Now then, with all the serious stuff done, I would really enjoy debating and or exploring the whole "aliens keeping us captive" thing. Now that would be a fun topic!


Yeah! And if aliens "breeded" us to keep our species alive, and then released us later, at least we wouldn't be completely wiped out, even at the cost of a few peoples quality of life.


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## sibi

For all the talk about freedoms, in reality, nothing living is truly "free." There have always existed boundaries (i.e., gravity, shorelines, universal/ man-made laws) that limit freedoms for all...and for good reason. My mind could go into areas that would distract from my point, so I won't go there. Which one of us wouldn't love to do anything they want whenever they want and however they want IF they could? The truth is that it can never happen; not for us, and not for animals/reptiles. Having said that, the question shouldn't be whether or not it is ethical to have reptiles as pets based on the freedom argument. For all those who wish all animals could be free to roam the wild as they were intended to do (I included), the reality is it will never be that way due to the various limitations to freedom. Therefore, at best, what we are really talking about is limited freedoms. So, my question is, if animals/reptiles have limited freedoms, what's so bad about having limited freedoms with man as their caregivers? IF humans can adequately supply all that animals/reptiles need to enjoy (and preserve) life in captivity, there is nothing unethical about that at all. Let's face it, we are going to have pets (within bounds and law) no matter what anyone thinks about it. Let's just make it our goal in life to better the lives of our pets...which is what most of us are doing here.


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## dmmj

You know if the "aliens" provided 2 or more females for each male, that might not be a bad thing.


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## sibi

Wow....really?



dmmj said:


> You know if the "aliens" provided 2 or more females for each male, that might not be a bad thing.


----------



## Tom

dmmj said:


> You know if the "aliens" provided 2 or more females for each male, that might not be a bad thing.



Seriously Captain. There is some real merit there, right. Of course they would have to assess and set up appropriate captive groups... But I don't want to derail this thread.


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## sibi

Or they can provide 2 or more males for each female...of course, boundaries would have to be set.


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## Floof

dmmj said:


> You know if the "aliens" provided 2 or more females for each male, that might not be a bad thing.



LOL. Men.... Really!

I dunno... I could get used to the whole alien captive thing. Just as long as there's good food and I don't have to share space with anyone I hate. Or make babies. I do not have a high pain tolerance. Or infant tolerance. Very low infant and small child tolerance.


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## dmmj

sibi said:


> Or they can provide 2 or more males for each female...of course, boundaries would have to be set.


Yes, but that would not help further the species as well as the other way.


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## sibi

HaHaHa...that's true, but who cares, everyone would be having so much fun!


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## Cowboy_Ken

And good food. My native environment contains satellite TV and the Internet machine. I would expect the same from my alien caretakers.


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## TortoiseBoy1999

Arent we getting off subject!


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## Cowboy_Ken

Yes, perhaps a little. On a very primitive level, I find my relationship with my torts and other animals akin to the harvester ant/ aphid relationship. They provide me with something I feel is valuable, and in return, their needs are met by me. Sort of a symbiotic relationship as it were. For example, I don't think this relationship would work for me if the animal wanted to fling poop at me, and if I wanted to do something equally distasteful to the animal.


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## Baoh

Cowboy_Ken said:


> Yes, perhaps a little. On a very primitive level, I find my relationship with my torts and other animals akin to the harvester ant/ aphid relationship. They provide me with something I feel is valuable, and in return, their needs are met by me. Sort of a symbiotic relationship as it were. For example, I don't think this relationship would work for me if the animal wanted to fling poop at me, and if I wanted to do something equally distasteful to the animal.



I enjoy your perspective on the matter.


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## Terry Allan Hall

I believe that some reptiles are more "amendable" to captive life than others, and have kept, temporarily species that never grew tame, and probably, after many years in captivity, if still alive, would still be just as "wild". Coachwhip snakes are such an example. Such creatures really should be returned to the wild, if at all possible, as they rarely thrive, and often die shortly after capture, either from stress or just refuse to eat. So, keeping these is, to my thinking, unethical.

Others, seem to be much "friendlier", in that while allowed to roam around an open area, would stay close, and if I moved further away, would move closer to me. My Hermann's tortoises, my boas and, in particular, a Burmese python ("Cassandra") I had in my 20s, who I often took to the lake and swam with...she never got further than 6-8 feet away in the water, and wherever I swam, she stay right with me. And talk about a "wingman"...she was a babe-magnet beyond compare! 

Others have fallen in between these extremes.


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## wellington

sibi said:


> Or they can provide 2 or more males for each female...of course, boundaries would have to be set.



Oh, please, no. I can hardly deal with one.


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## Terry Allan Hall

Cowboy_Ken said:


> Yes, perhaps a little. On a very primitive level, I find my relationship with my torts and other animals akin to the harvester ant/ aphid relationship. They provide me with something I feel is valuable, and in return, their needs are met by me. Sort of a symbiotic relationship as it were. For example, I don't think this relationship would work for me if the animal wanted to fling poop at me, and if I wanted to do something equally distasteful to the animal.



You've just summed up why, after baby-sitting a monkey one weekend, I lost all desire to ever vshare my life with one...at least if a tortoise pees on me, I know it's nothing personal!


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## Tom

sibi said:


> Or they can provide 2 or more males for each female...of course, boundaries would have to be set.



Pshhh.... Only a foolish human keeper would do something like this. It would result in serious male aggression. One would likely be killed or at least driven into extreme submission. Look at captive primates for your examples on this. My enclosure could only contain one male. I would reward my keepers wisdom with lots of breeding.


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## EricIvins

Terry Allan Hall said:


> I believe that some reptiles are more "amendable" to captive life than others, and have kept, temporarily species that never grew tame, and probably, after many years in captivity, if still alive, would still be just as "wild". Coachwhip snakes are such an example. Such creatures really should be returned to the wild, if at all possible, as they rarely thrive, and often die shortly after capture, either from stress or just refuse to eat. So, keeping these is, to my thinking, unethical.
> 
> Others, seem to be much "friendlier", in that while allowed to roam around an open area, would stay close, and if I moved further away, would move closer to me. My Hermann's tortoises, my boas and, in particular, a Burmese python ("Cassandra") I had in my 20s, who I often took to the lake and swam with...she never got further than 6-8 feet away in the water, and wherever I swam, she stay right with me. And talk about a "wingman"...she was a babe-magnet beyond compare!
> 
> Others have fallen in between these extremes.



Herein lies the problem - The "thought" that some animals are better suited to captivity........

There are plenty of dedicated Coachwhip keepers, whose animals thrive, recruit, and do all the things a "wild" Coachwhip will do in captivity.......The difference is the fact that they know how to work with, and understand the animals. Give a Coachwhip to a Ball Python breeder and of course it will be dead in a week. It's a totally different dynamic. This goes for any animal kept in captivity. If you don't understand the hows, whats, whys, and whens, you shouldn't be keeping the animal to begin with. Keeping a Coachwhip is really no different than keeping any Drymarchon species to be honest.......


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## tortadise

I could probably write a paper on this as a response. But my fingers hurt so I will just say this. Humans are the problem, and this is why we have "pets" and have to instill captive breeding, or reassurance colonies of any species of animal in this world, not just reptiles, and in the natural ways of human emotions and humanistic viewpoints of coddling and the ability of feeling sorrow and sadness plays a large role in our minds to feel "sad" that they want to run "free". 

They would only be free if humans did not destroy or pillage them in the wild. Species can be naturally endemic to extinction but not at the rate of our doing. That is all.


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## cesktw0

I have kept reptiles for most of my life, the thought has crossed my mind that it might be best for reptiles to stay in the wild free, where they came from. But I provide the best care and husbandry for all of my pets, and feel like they have a fighting chance in my possession rather than in the wild. Great subject for debate!


----------



## Terry Allan Hall

EricIvins said:


> Terry Allan Hall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that some reptiles are more "amendable" to captive life than others, and have kept, temporarily species that never grew tame, and probably, after many years in captivity, if still alive, would still be just as "wild". Coachwhip snakes are such an example. Such creatures really should be returned to the wild, if at all possible, as they rarely thrive, and often die shortly after capture, either from stress or just refuse to eat. So, keeping these is, to my thinking, unethical.
> 
> Others, seem to be much "friendlier", in that while allowed to roam around an open area, would stay close, and if I moved further away, would move closer to me. My Hermann's tortoises, my boas and, in particular, a Burmese python ("Cassandra") I had in my 20s, who I often took to the lake and swam with...she never got further than 6-8 feet away in the water, and wherever I swam, she stay right with me. And talk about a "wingman"...she was a babe-magnet beyond compare!
> 
> Others have fallen in between these extremes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Herein lies the problem - The "thought" that some animals are better suited to captivity........
> 
> There are plenty of dedicated Coachwhip keepers, whose animals thrive, recruit, and do all the things a "wild" Coachwhip will do in captivity.......The difference is the fact that they know how to work with, and understand the animals. Give a Coachwhip to a Ball Python breeder and of course it will be dead in a week. It's a totally different dynamic. This goes for any animal kept in captivity. If you don't understand the hows, whats, whys, and whens, you shouldn't be keeping the animal to begin with. Keeping a Coachwhip is really no different than keeping any Drymarchon species to be honest.......
Click to expand...


Except that coachwhip snakes do not thrive (or even live long) in captivity...much too high-strung.


----------



## EricIvins

Terry Allan Hall said:


> EricIvins said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terry Allan Hall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that some reptiles are more "amendable" to captive life than others, and have kept, temporarily species that never grew tame, and probably, after many years in captivity, if still alive, would still be just as "wild". Coachwhip snakes are such an example. Such creatures really should be returned to the wild, if at all possible, as they rarely thrive, and often die shortly after capture, either from stress or just refuse to eat. So, keeping these is, to my thinking, unethical.
> 
> Others, seem to be much "friendlier", in that while allowed to roam around an open area, would stay close, and if I moved further away, would move closer to me. My Hermann's tortoises, my boas and, in particular, a Burmese python ("Cassandra") I had in my 20s, who I often took to the lake and swam with...she never got further than 6-8 feet away in the water, and wherever I swam, she stay right with me. And talk about a "wingman"...she was a babe-magnet beyond compare!
> 
> Others have fallen in between these extremes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Herein lies the problem - The "thought" that some animals are better suited to captivity........
> 
> There are plenty of dedicated Coachwhip keepers, whose animals thrive, recruit, and do all the things a "wild" Coachwhip will do in captivity.......The difference is the fact that they know how to work with, and understand the animals. Give a Coachwhip to a Ball Python breeder and of course it will be dead in a week. It's a totally different dynamic. This goes for any animal kept in captivity. If you don't understand the hows, whats, whys, and whens, you shouldn't be keeping the animal to begin with. Keeping a Coachwhip is really no different than keeping any Drymarchon species to be honest.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Except that coachwhip snakes do not thrive (or even live long) in captivity...much too high-strung.
Click to expand...


Again, they do thrive in the right hands. No different than keeping Spilotes, Drymarchon, Pseustes, and the myriad of other "high strung" Snakes that people keep every day........These animals live as long as any other captive snake species........


----------



## Terry Allan Hall

EricIvins said:


> Terry Allan Hall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EricIvins said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terry Allan Hall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that some reptiles are more "amendable" to captive life than others, and have kept, temporarily species that never grew tame, and probably, after many years in captivity, if still alive, would still be just as "wild". Coachwhip snakes are such an example. Such creatures really should be returned to the wild, if at all possible, as they rarely thrive, and often die shortly after capture, either from stress or just refuse to eat. So, keeping these is, to my thinking, unethical.
> 
> Others, seem to be much "friendlier", in that while allowed to roam around an open area, would stay close, and if I moved further away, would move closer to me. My Hermann's tortoises, my boas and, in particular, a Burmese python ("Cassandra") I had in my 20s, who I often took to the lake and swam with...she never got further than 6-8 feet away in the water, and wherever I swam, she stay right with me. And talk about a "wingman"...she was a babe-magnet beyond compare!
> 
> Others have fallen in between these extremes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Herein lies the problem - The "thought" that some animals are better suited to captivity........
> 
> There are plenty of dedicated Coachwhip keepers, whose animals thrive, recruit, and do all the things a "wild" Coachwhip will do in captivity.......The difference is the fact that they know how to work with, and understand the animals. Give a Coachwhip to a Ball Python breeder and of course it will be dead in a week. It's a totally different dynamic. This goes for any animal kept in captivity. If you don't understand the hows, whats, whys, and whens, you shouldn't be keeping the animal to begin with. Keeping a Coachwhip is really no different than keeping any Drymarchon species to be honest.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Except that coachwhip snakes do not thrive (or even live long) in captivity...much too high-strung.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, they do thrive in the right hands. No different than keeping Spilotes, Drymarchon, Pseustes, and the myriad of other "high strung" Snakes that people keep every day........These animals live as long as any other captive snake species........
Click to expand...


You obviously believe this, Eric, and I'm fine with you believing this...but I know better, as do many other folks with a lot of experience w/ keeping "difficult" snakes.

Let us agree to disagree.


----------



## Jessamy

Well, at least with a reptile if you provide the correct conditions(not easily done) and they are not wild caught they will be content. I have a Patagonian Conure, and though I do my best they are social and I can't totally replace a bird mate or flock. So in many ways if having a pet is ethical(?) they are a good choice.


----------



## Jessamy

Tortus said:


> *Catches cookie crumbs*
> 
> That is an excellent post. Very well stated.
> 
> One argument from some that gets me though is stating that by being in our care, they're free from parasites, predators, foul weather, etc.
> 
> I really think this is one of the worst ways to justify keeping them in our care. I don't believe they know any of that when they're trying to get lose from their enclosures and obtain their natural range. I've thought the same thing myself for years, but now it just feels like I was trying to supplement my desire to keep them as pets. All that talk is just for our peace of mind. Not theirs.



True, animals exposed to the stress of foraging, varied weather, natural predators/parasites are overall healthier- just look at any WC adult they are usually robust. That's why spoiling pets isn't best, challenging them is.

I still feel keeping other animals is ethical if done well. I had a Degu that truly hated(chewed to escape)her large cage, so I put her out free on a screened porch where she also chewed out. She would come back in to eat nuts and hang out then left again. In the outdoors she eventually disappeared, probably eaten, but she was much happier(chose to be there) free even with aggressive squirrels and predators. However, this mammal's(Cavy) intelligence,range and activity level makes them a poor pet- at least mine was. My bird hates(paces, nervous) being a cage-even huge- for similar reasons, however, if she can't be loose in the house the bathroom is ok with her because we use it and they are social learners. In my experience, most reptiles are easier(still not easy) to satisfy in captivity if you can get just get their habitat/environment right because they are less social/intelligent(not an insult I love them!) and a cage is just a physical set of boundaries to them.


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## CactusVinnie

Quite late, maybe redundant, maybe someone will find something new... 

In order to find THE ANSWER, not "opinions", "views" etc., that may be ok or totally aberrant, we should first to cut loose all our ego, involvement, attachements, weaknesses, selfishness, interests- otherwise, our "answer" will do nothing more than reflecting the above mentioned "viruses".

So... are we living in a perfect world?

1. If "perfect world" is in fact the initial heaven, where all things, living or not, had a subtle role in the functioning of Creation, then... Adam and Eve would have commited other kind of sin, giving to the animals another role than the Creator projected them for: a pittyful pet!! Why having a pet in the Garden of Eden?? Why arising in the edenic human's mind the desire to have one, if the whole picture was pure perfection, and human mind "without desires and passions", pure like a crystal? 

Definitely, they decided to be sinners in another way, but after all, that reflected indirectly on animals too, and all Nature in general: we, their descendents, are making a horrible mess from the Paradise thei received... we learned to eat animals, to kill them for fun, or keeping them captive. Clearly, lots of unethical things here...

2. No "perfect world", but a "quite good one": here it came the traditional cultures, but not all- as some of them literally extinguished lots of species.
They were already eating animals... quite bad, but humans needed to survive outside Eden, and they were mor and more. They fought, left, spread over and finally living all over the planet. 
But those hunters/gatherers are unknown to us in the religious/mystical/esotheric respects- they were humans, first hand ones, supposedly better than us in all the respects. Modern human knows "multum, non multa"- we know lots of things, many things, but we know little in fact.
They were quite probable shamanic/animists and respecting all the beings, maybe humbly asking forgiveness to the hunted ones, necessary for survival etc. They were more "ethical" than us, maybe, their judgment on animals being that none should be tormented or killed, except for defense or food. I think no pets at those times, maybe only dogs, since respecting an animal (etical behaviour) implied letting it free.

3. Our world- ugly world. We should define "ethical/unethical" now.
Again, we still eat them. 
Ethical? Not really... but after all... ethical- they are just "food", aren't they? We breed them, not killing all the wild ones, for that! Ethical? in that context, it should be... better than hunting them all down!

We cut forests, destroy wilderness just to provide/cultivate forage for animals. Ethical? It start to stink here... why we keep destroying, couldn't we eat vegetables, and not wasting 10kg of cereals to obtain 1kg of meat? We could do that, after all! 
Oh, we cry and resent the fate of wilderness and poor animals... but we still WANT OUR MEAT ON THE TABLE!!! Isn't it?? Yes, unethical, unethical- greed and ignorance are UNETHICAL, since they affect not only us, but all around us- other people, nature etc... we can spare the fields and forests, together with their innocent inhabitants, if just a little good will- eating vegetal matter, vegetal proteins being even healthier! We are built for them in fact- why we just forgot that?

PARANTHESIS: we are not carnivores, not even omnivores. I will not dispute that. I don't "suppose, think, having opinions"- I KNOW THAT, I FEEL THAT, I UNDERSTOOD THAT! We just eat meat to survive first, and then eating it more and more, until now, when we eat it because we like it! No hypocrisy here- it's just a cultivated taste for meat, a cultural factor! We don't need it, and we would live better without it, and that would be good for the enviroment too.
Again, I would not debate, because I KNOW. But, as all of us, I eat meat. Not much, but I eat. I want to give up one day... 

Now, after all other interactions we had/have with the animals, to the original subject: keeping them, especially reptiles, as pets.
Ethical or unethical? Well, that depends... being stupid, selfish, cruel, greedy, ignorant is still "unethical"- these bugs affect all around us, remember?
It should be simple: it is unethical if you have "moods" and want an animal now, but not learning about him, researching, treying to offer a good life. If you really care about him, keeping became ethical.
Now... you do care about and look for even better for your pet... but what kind of pet?? Aha, Testudo kleinmanni! Or, obvious wild-caughts belonging to *any threatened species*! Well, not ethical, with all your interest in your pet's wellness!! He does not give a **** on your kindness and care, if you are just the final link of the poaching chain, and conscious people will find that clearly unethical! and it is!

Radicalism- NO PETS AT ALL, ANIMALS SHOULD BE FREE!! 
I agree 100%! But when, now? Oh no, in Eden!! Now it's more complicated than that...
Even if not threatened species- some activists would say- they belong to the wild. Agree here too. It is unethical. Why keeping them captives, after all, even well cared for and only CB? Well, even unethical through "chaining, fencing" an animal, that could be useful. I personally was attracted by aquaria as a kid, and no matter the species or class, animals fascinated us. By keeping such captives, we have an unique chance to start knowing the nature laws- some will never do, but some will go further than "pet-keeper level". They will became specialists, or even redoutable knowledge-loaded amateurs. People who can make a difference for the wild animals started by carring for some fish, a lizard, a turtle etc... 

The bad part is the pet-industry, fueled by the greed of those implied in breeding and selling, and the ignorance of the customers. Both behave unethical.

Knowing the animals better can make a difference, generally. The good part of the hobby is that it can raise awareness about wild animals. It's up to us to incline the ballance towards the positive side, by keeping them well and behaving not just like customers/owners, but responsable keepers.

But we are not taling about reptile keepers, after all. Frankly, it is not need for treating them as a separate type, since the principles are the same, whatever you keep.

Personally, I wish that things will get back to normal: animals roaming free, humans enjoying them by just seing them free, not fearing them, not wanting them fenced, not eating them anymore... but that is Eden reloaded, and I think it will be not soon.

Animals should be free. All beings, humans included, are just energy/matter channels, that work well when they belong to their place: animals not in cages, humans not in cities. From trophic pyramid to more subtle aspects, man should behave different than eating and caging animals, erasing the life-teeming forest and fields, poisoning waters, fishing them out until last fish and so on.... 
But in our world, I think we should keep them (in above mentioned conditions), learn about them, maybe even helping them. Kids having a few Guppies or a well-cared for reptile will have a chance to develop sensibility and understanding...
What for releasing them? To be totally wiped out by habitat loss or killed?

Example: those ignorants in Madagascar recently beginned to eat tortoises- initially , great TABOO to harm one!! They eat now TONS of DRIED tortoise meat- just imagine what number of tortoises are slaughtered, if only that little meat of them, dried, and still being measured in TONS?? 
Well, I would be _The Great Poacher Tortoise Trafficant Numero Uno_, if possible, in such places!! Better in other people's care overseas, than eaten to extinction in another 10 years- with the only consolation that the massacre will be "on their native environment" and they prohibited exports and so protected the tortoises!! Yes, of course!! 

*Being ethical is not anymore a simple answered question now. Being ethical should not resume to separate facts, but to the whole picture. If finality is good, then the steps to achieve it were necessary and therefore ethical. I know, it should not be that way, but now it is.*

And... I was always disgusted by some modern "conservationist/animal right-activist" type of approach; I was shocked to find that these groups have very strong opinions in totally different questions, not related to animals, but... abortion, for instance!!! I am clearly AGAINST, as expected for a Balkan barbarian, isn't it? Well, lots of those "Pro-animal. pro-life" activists were very confident in opinate on that theme, being... pro-DEATH. Don't ask me links or exact source and things like that, I just remembered the idea, read somewhere... End of chapter for me... and frivolous manner of protesting, breasts and nudity as tools to create impact- "better naked than in fur"... quasi-porn with the pretext of "protecting life", that kind of garbage disgusted me totally. These "organisations with a heart" make me sick, they only have stomach and genitals. I like breasts, nudity, women, but not porn, wooooes and greedy manipulators behind all of these, posing in "animal heroes", fueled by people's trust in their "good" intentions. 

Last paragraph explained my harsh words about PETA-ish organisations, words that Terryo took as an insult. I am sure she will agree with me now, on those specific points.


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## dannel

Tortus said:


> I really think this is one of the worst ways to justify keeping them in our care. I don't believe they know any of that when they're trying to get lose from their enclosures and obtain their natural range. I've thought the same thing myself for years, but now it just feels like I was trying to supplement my desire to keep them as pets. All that talk is just for our peace of mind. Not theirs.



I have to disagree. Do you think that generations of CB turtles/tortoises know where they "should" be in the wild? I believe that as far as they know, their enclosure is their whole world. CB animals don't "think back" to when they were in the wild, because they haven't been taken from the wild, in my opinion. Sorry if its off topic, but heres an illustration. If someone kidnaps a child before they can "remember" their real parents, that child will think the kidnaper is their true parent. They dont know better. So when you keep a CB animal, they can't remember something that they haven't experienced, such as being in their natural home range. To WC animals, none of this applies.


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## CactusVinnie

> I have to disagree. Do you think that generations of CB turtles/tortoises know where they "should" be in the wild?



I am quite positive about that... they know just a few things, but they knew them very well. You cannot erase their ancestral memory, they are too old for that to be possible... you just can offer them decent care, and they will accept it, since survival first, dreaming second... but just give them a breach, and they will escape for good.



> I believe that as far as they know, their enclosure is their whole world. CB animals don't "think back" to when they were in the wild, because they haven't been taken from the wild, in my opinion.



"Thinking back" for a reptile can be, as I said before, quite very, very "back"... their ancient brain is not limited to their own, short, life experience. 



> If someone kidnaps a child before they can "remember" their real parents, that child will think the kidnaper is their true parent. They dont know better. So when you keep a CB animal, they can't remember something that they haven't experienced, such as being in their natural home range. To WC animals, none of this applies.



Yep, good point: _they can't remember something that they haven't experienced_; that works for mammals, especially for us, humans. Reptile "parents" are in fact their ancient, implacable memory. We are very adaptable and versatile- always like "installing/uninstalling" programs- that allowed us spreading all over the world in a very short time; from an initially tropical creature, some of us reached cold mountain tops, subpolar regions, deserts, cold/wet forests... The reptiles are different... more... "conservative". Their brain is very different. Primitive and implacable. They will always remember the wild, they will always scratch the walls of their huge enclosure, where food and water are offered daily, predators removed, shelter provided... they "know" is much more beyond the walls, even if a safer (in our view) life inside them. 

In fact, man is the only animal with such a short memory... just look at us: we gladly eat garbage food, prefer computers, getting fat and sick- just because we had that presented as "normal", so we do not "feel" the urge to eat healthy, to run, to spend our lives under the sky... man it's the easiest breed to lie to! But you cannot lie a tortoise, never- she's way too ancient for that. She will know always that it's something more than her enclosure, no matter how big.


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## Cowboy_Ken

CactusVinnie said:


> I am quite positive about that... they know just a few things, but they knew them very well. You cannot erase their ancestral memory, they are too old for that to be possible... you just can offer them decent care, and they will accept it, since survival first, dreaming second... but just give them a breach, and they will escape for good.
> 
> "Thinking back" for a reptile can be, as I said before, quite very, very "back"... their ancient brain is not limited to their own, short, life experience.
> 
> Yep, good point: they can't remember something that they haven't experienced; that works for mammals, especially for us, humans. Reptile "parents" are in fact their ancient, implacable memory. We are very adaptable and versatile- always like "installing/uninstalling" programs- that allowed us spreading all over the world in a very short time; from an initially tropical creature, some of us reached cold mountain tops, subpolar regions, deserts, cold/wet forests... The reptiles are different... more... "conservative". Their brain is very different. Primitive and implacable. They will always remember the wild, they will always scratch the walls of their huge enclosure, where food and water are offered daily, predators removed, shelter provided... they "know" is much more beyond the walls, even if a safer (in our view) life inside them.
> 
> In fact, man is the only animal with such a short memory... just look at us: we gladly eat garbage food, prefer computers, getting fat and sick- just because we had that presented as "normal", so we do not "feel" the urge to eat healthy, to run, to spend our lives under the sky... man it's the easiest breed to lie to! But you cannot lie a tortoise, never- she's way too ancient for that. She will know always that it's something more than her enclosure, no matter how big.



My wife, a certified vet tech, could sure use your help when Fido comes in seeming to be off. You could help explain what the animal is feeling in human terms. Sorry, I had to.


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## StudentoftheReptile

So all tortoises in captivity have a "Marty the zebra" complex?


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## CactusVinnie

Well, I did not expect to be understood by everyone- but i am pretty sure there are some here. For me, it's just common sense, for you, an opportunity to make an irony. No big deal, I am quite accustomed. 
And we have a word here: _"exactly because of that it will not rain anymore in Bucharest"_... I use to give mainly US location when expressing such wisdom, but sometimes mentioning Namibia or Atacama, to give some weight to such replies. It is really dry out there, you know... 
So, what can be better than irony?? I am curious, even if already knowing the answer...


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## Kapidolo Farms

Yearn, wants, desire, missing freedom. Really.

These are called projections, we do it to each other, we do it to rocks and trees. Why I like animals, they don't project. I know they are not automatons, but many of the descriptions here say more about the author than the animal they keep.

One zoo I worked at had sleepovers in the reptile house for scouts, Y groups, churches whatever. Inevitably someone would ask, adult or child about this concept. I think one member from France (sorry lost the name already) said it best, we he said we are ourselves captives in cages of our own design. Freedom of captivity is something most nearly everyone on earth is no longer capable of or willing/interested in re-acquiring.

In one extended episode of field work I was able to shake off the required group to work in the country I was in, and the one man that stuck with me was a 'wild' native man from way way way up in the mountains (for real). We spoke no words to each other, not one in common. He did not have any supplies or gear, he did everything based on at the moment need, and what he found in the forest. That was a very interesting moment or even an epiphany for me. We all, are captives of out own design. 

So that we include some wildlife alongside ourselves is in part how we maintain our humanity at all. Cats, are no more domesticated than ones we have from birth, dogs pretty much too. They are socialized from day one and selected for a personality trait that keeps them lifelong kittens and puppies. Without that human accompaniment from very early on, they are feral and wild within that life time. One generation. 

A feral cat or dog is as able to become a pet about as well as the average squirrel, raccoon, or possum that inhabits some backyards. Even coyotes can become pretty tolerant of close association with people. The genetics of captive and wild animals are much more behavioral than physiological. 

Now the concept of what care is provided versus what is needed is why we all share what we share here yes/no? 

If you have let someone emot you into guilt for that bit of humanity you have, to share your life with an animal, then you have become that person's pet yourself. You are that much more domesticated, and in a cage.

IMO

Will


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## StudentoftheReptile

A lot of people are more guilty of anthropormorphizing than they care to admit.
------
Well, I know why I keep tortoises and I see nothing unethical about it. Better in my backyard, no predators, no competition from territorial conspecifics, 1-2 square meals a day...than risk getting buried alive by bulldozers smoothing over the landscape for timber or the next strip mall.

Sooner or later, we're not going to be able to get WC tortoises, and when that happens, I wonder if anyone on this thread will change their tune.


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## lovelyrosepetal

I have a question for Fabian. How do you know what the tortoises know? How do you know what any animal knows? I can look at an animal, baby or tortoise and know what they know. I can project what I want to onto them but I don't really know what they think or what they know.


I mean I can't know what they know, I can only project or imagine what they are thinking and what they know. If you looked at me, would you know what I know? Would you know what I think? How do you know what a tortoise knows? I really would like to know.


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## StudentoftheReptile

I agree. If one can truly read the minds of animals, that is truly a marketable talent indeed!


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## CactusVinnie

I do not antropomorphyse... look for other kind of kepers, like the ones fearing their tortoise will not _like_ to be alone, claustrate in cold and dark, for months, if you just like to use that word so much... but first, learn to identify it. 
I am not projecting nothing, it's just realising the fact that it's not captivity making them as they are, but millions of years of wild and it's challenges. 
Their brain is too primitive to change something so deep chiseled in it, so it's my turn to ask you all, how are you sure they are perfectly fine in captivity and not missing "something"? I mean, even if none of us can "read" animals mind, you are the ones implying they will be just fine, and not sensing the need to escape? So, now you just became animal minds readers too, isn't it?

I am a little more humble than that, since I accept that just offering food and shelter, my tortoises will not try to escape if finding the opportunity. My pittyful conditions that I offer them may be OK, but cannot be the same and complete as the wild... again, it's you that antropomorphise- how do you know they just like it, and not missing something? 

Call it what you want- feeling, sensing, wanting, wishing, desiring, "call of the wild" etc.- but don't be that narrow to think they cannot _feel_ it's something more out there. I just do not feel, it is obvious- even if they are quite territorial and attached to their immediate environment, even laying their eggs here... God forbid to let them an escape way... because they will use it.

All these arguments came from a man keeping, breeding, observing them, in captivity and wild, and speaking to passionate field experts. They do became attached to their enclosure, they learn all its features and react when something is changed- seems like they "feel at home", isn't it? It's natural, but I would be curious how can you explain why most animals, except some mammals and birds, will invariable try to escape if opportunity came? I think that if I would not have good, isolated and escape-proofed enclosures, I would not have not even a single one left here, in 2 years. Why? Are they that dumb to escape from safety, or they just feel/need to escape no matter what, since it's instinct, not reasoning that makes them act like that? 

See, you are the antropomorphising ones here- you attribute them the human capacity of weighing options, and concluding that better captive in your yard, than free but far from habitat! Now, you find yourselves at the other end of the irony, it seems...

The fact they did not escaped from you- or getting crazy trying to- it's not because they did not feel to, but maybe your security is perfect and really no escape way there. Firm walls and no cracks to see through are fine in preventing fugitive ideas to arise in their mind. But I saw them when finding a few holes in one old wooden board, wich was a little rotten- they spent A LOT of time trying to reach the other side, just because they saw it. Scratching the wood, trying to digg, even ramming it!! Once repaired, a little more patrolling there, then abandoned and return to the "happy" life in enclosure. 

They do get attached and accustomed to their area, but not that attached to not using an escape opportunity when offered, while captive. But some wild ones were seen in largely the same areas, in different years- they seem not "wanting" to escape that area; can you tell me why? Because I never heared about a fugitive returning "home", only just found even miles further, with lots of luck. 

I repeat: just by affirming they don't feel nothing like "call of the wild" (you can mock here any similar terms, like* wish, want, like, ask, love to, need, sense* etc...) makes you too Masters of the Beasts. That equals our ecuation, and only one thing left: they will escape, if finding a way. Instinct is more powerful, and their attachament to their enclosure, even a very good one, will vanish when facing the challenge of "freedom", with all the unknown and dangers it brings with it. They will leave safety and familiar territory for that. Call it how you want to, but it's ridiculous not admitting it.



> A lot of people are more guilty of anthropormorphizing than they care to admit.


That is incontestable, I agree 101%...


BTW: mocking and cheap irony is not debating, and you disqualify yourself as a discussion partner. I am a true master in that field but using my art very rarely, since it's lethal and it never pays even the smallest of benefits.


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## Cowboy_Ken

That is incontestable, I agree 101%...

A very human trait, mathematically unreal.


Incorrect.


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## CactusVinnie

Wow...I can edit only for half an hour after posting, so now unable to correct it. Sorry, it will stay 101%...

... it's a metaphore, man... forget it.

QED.


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## Tom

The whole concept of a reptile trying to "escape" is anthropomorphizing in itself. They aren't trying to "escape". It is in their nature to roam. They walk around within their territory searching for food, water, mates (in the case of males), shelter, etc... Our enclosures are simply barriers to their ability to roam. They are simply trying to overcome the barriers or "obstacles" that we have placed in their desired path.

To suggest that a captive born animal has some sort of instinctive memory of what it was like in the wild is ridiculous. Completely absurd. To suggest that they "yearn" for freedom the way a human does is non-sense.

To answer the original question again: YES. It is completely "ethical" to keep reptiles as pets. I say this with a renewed sense of purpose after returning from the TTPG conference and being reminded of the plight of so many species in the wild. Keeping my reptiles, to the standard I keep them, is COMPLETELY within my code of ethics.


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## lovelyrosepetal

Fabian, so you do not know what they know and what they think. You are merely assuming that the tortoise knows its wild home. So, in essence you are projecting your own thoughts onto the tortoise. I don't know one way or another, it just makes me happy to watch and enjoy these tortoise friends. I am projecting friendship onto the tortoise because I like it and it makes me happy to like it.


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## bigred

dmmj said:


> You know if the "aliens" provided 2 or more females for each male, that might not be a bad thing.



Thanks for the post, Im back interested again. I wonder if I could get my wife to dress up like an alien for a night. She said she is ok with it. Pics coming soon for dmmj


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## mira_kaylee

Friend, I understand where you're coming from, that everything is born wanting to be free, even captive born animals, but....it just seems to me like...well, how could they miss something that they've never had? I'm far from an expert, but my tortoise Ayden (my female tort, Azura, is still getting used to me I'd imagine as I've had her for less than a year) seems very happy to see me everytime I go near him....when I take him to his outside enclosure and come outside he will follow me around, when I sit down he will either sit under my chair or beside me, I get comments all the time from other people saying how Ayden acts almost like a clingy child with the way that he behaves (which is fine by me, mind you). It could be that I'm missing something I suppose, but to me it doesn't seem like Ayden really wants to be anywhere else.....(take into account that he could also be the exception rather than the rule - Ayden doesn't act like most tortoises, or so I've been told by other tort-owners)


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## StudentoftheReptile

Fabian,

Tom said it well. Rationalize it however you like to help you sleep at night, but you are guilty of nearly everything you accuse others of. You cannot read tortoise' minds. You have no concrete proof of their "instinctual/ancestral yearning for freedom." Every CBB sulcata tortoise is not thinking to itself "This isn't right. I should be in Africa!"


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## Kapidolo Farms

You all know what a thought experiment is? No grants or publishing required, you don't even have to share with us the result.

Here's the set up, some species of insect have evolved flight several times in their grand lineage, then lost it then re-acquired it. Don't like insects, then lets pretend penguins can fly again. 

These animals did not have a "want" to fly again. Really, just had to have or need it, yes, those who did not have it are all dead. 

So, let me hear your argument that tortoises are 'not evolving to be captives as a strategy to get around the other humans who would kill all the wild ones". That's right, it is an overt proactive desire that tortoises have to become captives in good keepers homes and yards, so that the mall builders and charcoal gatherers don't kill them all. They get a better health plan than Obama insists we will get, they get purer foods, they get heating on demand with our clever thermostats. And we are the chumps obliging their plan to persists after we kill all ourselves off. Yeah that's it. And I bet some of us who are animal trainers are teaching them to use tools so the ones in the backyards can release the ones in indoor enclosures, Yeah that's right.

To me the arguments that having a pet tortoise is unethical is even more prescribed silly, than this thought experiment I am asking you to consider.

Will


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## bigred

mira_kaylee said:


> Friend, I understand where you're coming from, that everything is born wanting to be free, even captive born animals, but....it just seems to me like...well, how could they miss something that they've never had? I'm far from an expert, but my tortoise Ayden (my female tort, Azura, is still getting used to me I'd imagine as I've had her for less than a year) seems very happy to see me everytime I go near him....when I take him to his outside enclosure and come outside he will follow me around, when I sit down he will either sit under my chair or beside me, I get comments all the time from other people saying how Ayden acts almost like a clingy child with the way that he behaves (which is fine by me, mind you). It could be that I'm missing something I suppose, but to me it doesn't seem like Ayden really wants to be anywhere else.....(take into account that he could also be the exception rather than the rule - Ayden doesn't act like most tortoises, or so I've been told by other tort-owners)



Yep sometimes you get a tort like that


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## Tim/Robin

Tom said:


> To suggest that a captive born animal has some sort of instinctive memory of what it was like in the wild is ridiculous. Completely absurd. To suggest that they "yearn" for freedom the way a human does is non-sense.
> 
> To answer the original question again: YES. It is completely "ethical" to keep reptiles as pets. I say this with a renewed sense of purpose after returning from the TTPG conference and being *reminded of the plight of so many species in the wild*. Keeping my reptiles, to the standard I keep them, is COMPLETELY within my code of ethics.



Very well said Tom!!! I agree and could not have said it better!! For me, it is absolutely ethical! Look what has happened to most of the "wild" populations in Madagascar. And I know all about poaching for the reptile trade. That is NOT the culprit to their impending demise.


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## mira_kaylee

bigred said:



> mira_kaylee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Friend, I understand where you're coming from, that everything is born wanting to be free, even captive born animals, but....it just seems to me like...well, how could they miss something that they've never had? I'm far from an expert, but my tortoise Ayden (my female tort, Azura, is still getting used to me I'd imagine as I've had her for less than a year) seems very happy to see me everytime I go near him....when I take him to his outside enclosure and come outside he will follow me around, when I sit down he will either sit under my chair or beside me, I get comments all the time from other people saying how Ayden acts almost like a clingy child with the way that he behaves (which is fine by me, mind you). It could be that I'm missing something I suppose, but to me it doesn't seem like Ayden really wants to be anywhere else.....(take into account that he could also be the exception rather than the rule - Ayden doesn't act like most tortoises, or so I've been told by other tort-owners)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep sometimes you get a tort like that
Click to expand...


Ayden is the perfect tort for me ^-^ I'm glad that he's like that lol.


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