# Pyramid Leopards First Clutch



## jskahn (Nov 5, 2014)

Last year I received 2 rescue females, that were very pyramid shaped. The smaller female has laid 4 clutches this year.The larger sister, had not laid.Tonight she started to dig a nest . By the time she was finally ready to lay, it was getting kinda cold out. When I checked, she had an egg ready to lay, but she didn't pass it. I gently massaged it out. I was not sure if the problem was her, or the cooler air. I set up a heater near her, and helped her pass most of the eggs.She managed to pass a couple of smaller eggs by herself. I am wondering if the problem was her or the cooler temps. Any thoughts? By the way she laid 9 eggs.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 6, 2014)

It seems like the leopard tortoises always pick the worst time to dig a nest. I have an old lawn chair that has a wire seat. When one of my leopards digs at night or in a cool time of year, I put that chair over her and place a heat lamp on the seat of the chair.

In my opinion, your tortoise was cold. Congrats on the eggs!


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## Jacqui (Nov 6, 2014)

Can I be the mean person this time? Not knowing just how badly those tortoises are pyramided (or why they are in that shape), I personally would think allowing them to reproduce could do harm to them. Sounds to me (since the small eggs passed with no trouble) that the tortoise's body, not the temp, could be the issue with passing the larger (more normal size?) eggs. Keep in mind I don't know the history on these two or what shape they really are in, just going by what you said and being very blunt, honest and saying what I feel/think rather then being nice. Sorry, if it's not what you wanted to hear or if you took offense by it.


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## Tom (Nov 6, 2014)

What size are these girls?

Often the first clutch has issues. Most of the time things smooth out with subsequent clutches. 

Have you thought about how you are going to incubate? I'd leave them in the ground until spring and then dig them up and incubate. Much higher hatch rates when the eggs spend the winter in the ground.


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## jskahn (Nov 6, 2014)

No offense taken. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.Some females, like her pyramid sister, can lay eggs before even being near a male. Also, if I could post pictures, they are not either small or deformed shape. They are about 14" and 15" long, but they are very tent shaped, and probably as high in the center as they are long.I even asked about breeding them on this forum, when I got them, and the opinions I received, felt that there should not be a problem.Also, as I said, the smaller sister had laid eggs, without a male, at her former owners.


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## jskahn (Nov 6, 2014)

Tom said:


> What size are these girls?
> 
> Often the first clutch has issues. Most of the time things smooth out with subsequent clutches.
> 
> Have you thought about how you are going to incubate? I'd leave them in the ground until spring and then dig them up and incubate. Much higher hatch rates when the eggs spend the winter in the ground.


 I have them in incubators.The only eggs, wheather they are turtles or tortoises that I leave in the ground are the nests I don't find.


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## Tom (Nov 6, 2014)

jskahn said:


> I have them in incubators.The only eggs, wheather they are turtles or tortoises that I leave in the ground are the nests I don't find.




You might want to give it a try. I learned the technique from @Neal, who is also in AZ. His leopard group was giving him a hatch rate of around 40-60% year after year. He left some nests in the ground during the colder months, dug them up in June when the weather got hot, put them in the incubator and got 80-100% hatch rates from all of that years clutches. Hopefully he will come along and correct my numbers here if I'm off at all.

After hearing of his experience with this technique I tried it with my sulcatas, and I kid you not, 210 out of 212 eggs hatched for me that year. I had a tub with 12 broken and cracked eggs that were collected from all the years clutches. 10 of those hatched, and the only 2 out of 212 that didn't hatch were two of my broken ones. Seems to be the best of both worlds. All the benefits of whatever happens in the ground with seasons and what not, combined with the benefits of safety, stable humidity and temps in our artificial incubators.


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## jskahn (Nov 6, 2014)

Sounds like it might be worth a try. When I was breeding Greeks and Marginateds I kept them outside all year, and never knew where or when they laid. Even though their enclosure was completely covered with wire mesh, I never seemed to find as many hatchlings as I thought there should be.


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## Tom (Nov 6, 2014)

jskahn said:


> Sounds like it might be worth a try. When I was breeding Greeks and Marginateds I kept them outside all year, and never knew where or when they laid. Even though their enclosure was completely covered with wire mesh, I never seemed to find as many hatchlings as I thought there should be.



I think this will depend on your area and species, but hatch rates for most species will be lower if left in the ground full term. The conditions in our little (little compared to the wild) enclosures just are not usually ideal for incubation.

But letting the eggs cool in the ground for a few months seems to work wonders for them.


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## jskahn (Nov 7, 2014)

It is kinda like the cooling period that breeders use before incubating Burmese Stars, pardalis pardalis leopards, etc. It does make a lot of sense. Isn't it a little tricky digging up a nest that the ground has hardened on?


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## Tom (Nov 7, 2014)

jskahn said:


> Isn't it a little tricky digging up a nest that the ground has hardened on?



I've done it many times and its never been an issue. I had 4 adult female sulcatas. Each laid a clutch about every 6 weeks starting in Dec/Jan. We had our normal winter rains and below freezing nights that winter. I dug up all the nests in June and had no trouble. I even had one clutch that I missed hatch in the ground. Only 11 babies out of that one, so they do better when incubated artificially.

Interesting that you bring up the diapause thing. South African leopards and Burmese stars both have cool/cold winters in their native ranges, so a cooling period for their eggs makes sense. Neal's leopard are the typical US leopards that are probably of mixed genetics from several locations in Africa. The in ground cooling period can be explained for any of these three types. I cannot, however, explain why an in ground cooling period would have any benefit for sulcatas. It most certainly did, but I don't know why. There is no cool time of year over there for sulcatas. My friend from Senegal tells me there are but two seasons over there in sulcata territory: "Hot and hotter."

There is so much we don't know...


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