# Baby sulcata not thriving.



## Shaye (Jan 22, 2018)

I posted earlier about the care I was taking of my baby sulcata who is a little over 1 month old. You recommended that I get a cover for the cage, so I did. The temperatures have stabilized very well, and the humidity is also high. His cool side has only dipped below 80 once, when we had a night which was 40° outdoors. And even then it was 78°.

The problem is, he is not active. He rarely moves around or is awake. I know babies like to hide because they're easy prey. However, he has not pooped since I got him about 10 days ago. He pooped and peed the night I got him, and peed the day after that. But has not done either since then. 

He was eating fine until yesterday, maybe a bit on the low side. I assumed it was because he was in a new environment. He does not like pumpkin, but I've gotten him to eat a few pieces of cactus with pumpkin on it. 

I soak him at least once a day, but aim to soak twice a day. 

How can I help him get better?


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## Tom (Jan 22, 2018)

Where did you get the tortoise and how was it started?
What is the basking temp directly under the bulb?
How warm is ambient temp in the enclosure during the day?
What heating and lighten equipment are you using? UV? What type?


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## Shaye (Jan 22, 2018)

Tom said:


> Where did you get the tortoise and how was it started?
> What is the basking temp directly under the bulb?
> How warm is ambient temp in the enclosure during the day?
> What heating and lighten equipment are you using? UV? What type?


I'm not sure I understand what you mean by how he was started, could you explain? I bought him from a local breeder.

Basking temp fluxuates from 100°-105°. I have never seen him basking.

The ambient temperature is usually 84°. I am using two heat lamps, 60watt and 75 watt and a under tank heater. I am getting a CHE and another heating pad for the night.


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## Tom (Jan 22, 2018)

Shaye said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by how he was started, could you explain? I bought him from a local breeder.
> 
> Basking temp fluxuates from 100°-105°. I have never seen him basking.
> 
> The ambient temperature is usually 84°. I am using two heat lamps, 60watt and 75 watt and a under tank heater. I am getting a CHE and another heating pad for the night.



There are many ways to start a baby right after hatching. For the last 3 decades, we have been starting this species and many others far too dry. Most people are still doing it that way, and it often leads to the death of the hatchling weeks or months later. Read more about it here:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

In contrast, this is how they should be started:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-incubate-eggs-and-start-hatchlings.124266/

Do you know how often the local breeder soaked the babies? Were they kept on rabbit pellets or damp orchid bark? Open topped enclosure with low humidity or closed chamber with high humidity?

Undertank heaters and heat pads should never be used on tortoises. Burn potential is high.


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## Shaye (Jan 22, 2018)

Oh no.. this sounds like him.

From pictures of his tortoises, they are all on hay in an open topped container. 

There is no chance at saving him?


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## Markw84 (Jan 22, 2018)

Shaye said:


> Oh no.. this sounds like him.
> 
> From pictures of his tortoises, they are all on hay in an open topped container.
> 
> There is no chance at saving him?


Read this. The last post in this thread - I just did, on this exact topic. It will give you a perspective on an experience.

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/leopard-tortoise-weight-growth-rate.163558/


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## Shaye (Jan 22, 2018)

Markw84 said:


> Read this. The last post in this thread - I just did, on this exact topic. It will give you a perspective on an experience.
> 
> https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/leopard-tortoise-weight-growth-rate.163558/


So just take care of him and hope? I will do exactly that. I'll try to keep him eating cactus at least, as that's his favorite. Should I soak twice a day?

I want this guy to pull through, but he isn't looking too well.


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## Tom (Jan 22, 2018)

Shaye said:


> There is no chance at saving him?



With good care in a warm humid environment and with daily soaks, some of them will pull through. Some make it, and some don't. All you can do is try.

Many people go to a vet and spend hundreds of dollars. If the baby's kidneys were damage in its first few days and weeks, there is nothing any vet can do to save it, and most of what they do actually does harm to a baby with compromised kidney's.

Try your best, wait and see. Don't give up.

Also, contact the breeder and let him/her know what is going on and why. The only way to stop this is to educate the people who are hatching these babies and caring for them in their first few days and weeks.


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## TammyJ (Jan 22, 2018)

Rooting for you and the little guy!


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## Shaye (Jan 23, 2018)

Tom said:


> With good care in a warm humid environment and with daily soaks, some of them will pull through. Some make it, and some don't. All you can do is try.
> 
> Many people go to a vet and spend hundreds of dollars. If the baby's kidneys were damage in its first few days and weeks, there is nothing any vet can do to save it, and most of what they do actually does harm to a baby with compromised kidney's.
> 
> ...


I've read a bit more, and I saw that someone said they overloaded a soft baby with calcium. His shell has some give to it, but feels like it's hardening. Should I give more calcium? 

Also the breeder was extremely insulting and insisted it was my fault because "water causes problems. I would never soak my tortoise.". So that gives you a clue to who I'm working with. 

In case my baby dies (which I'm working my hardest to prevent.), Is there good breeders online that have proven to be trustworthy? I'm passionate about reptiles and have wanted a sulcata for years. Also what is the typical price for a baby sulcata?


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## Tom (Jan 23, 2018)

Shaye said:


> I've read a bit more, and I saw that someone said they overloaded a soft baby with calcium. His shell has some give to it, but feels like it's hardening. Should I give more calcium?
> 
> Also the breeder was extremely insulting and insisted it was my fault because "water causes problems. I would never soak my tortoise.". So that gives you a clue to who I'm working with.
> 
> In case my baby dies (which I'm working my hardest to prevent.), Is there good breeders online that have proven to be trustworthy? I'm passionate about reptiles and have wanted a sulcata for years. Also what is the typical price for a baby sulcata?



Excessive amounts of calcium will not help, and too much calcium interferes with the absorption of other important nutrients and trace elements. Adding lots of calcium also fails to recognize and address the actual problem: Kidney damage due to dehydration.

Please send me the breeder's name and contact info either here or in a private message. The only way to stop this is to reach the breeders who are still doing it the wrong way.

There are several people here on the forum that start their babies the right way. I am one of them. I have eggs incubating right now, and I just saw an ad from @Lancecham for some older babies that have a little more size on them. Austin @Arizona Sulcata usually has some available too.

If you don't mind waiting a while, you are well within driving distance to get one from me.


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## Markw84 (Jan 23, 2018)

Shaye said:


> I've read a bit more, and I saw that someone said they overloaded a soft baby with calcium. His shell has some give to it, but feels like it's hardening. Should I give more calcium?
> 
> Also the breeder was extremely insulting and insisted it was my fault because "water causes problems. I would never soak my tortoise.". So that gives you a clue to who I'm working with.
> 
> In case my baby dies (which I'm working my hardest to prevent.), Is there good breeders online that have proven to be trustworthy? I'm passionate about reptiles and have wanted a sulcata for years. Also what is the typical price for a baby sulcata?


You don't need to "overload" calcium. You do need to ensure there is enough calcium in the diet. The critical ingredients for proper bone growth are Calcium, Phosphorus, Magnesium, and Vitamin D3. The first 3 will come with a good diet of dark green leafy greens and weeds. Try to favor items with high calcium content and a good (greater than 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio - as too much phosphorus can block calcium absorption. So just ensure a good balance of the good foods recommended here are offered daily. I also always introduce Mazuri tortoise food (original formula) to my tortoises as soon as possible. I'll soften a pellet and mix it with the food. All my tortoise take to it right away. It has a good balance of minerals and vitamins added so acts as the vitamin/mineral supplement for me. Next, be sure there is proper UVB exposure so the tortoise can metabolically make the proper amount of D3 it needs. With baby tortoises I always provide a good UVB light as they do so much better in a controlled indoor environment and outdoors is so hard to control the heat and humidity. Be sure the light is producing good UVB and mounted at the correct height. These things will take care of calcium requirements. Add that to the proper "climate" you provide = 80° min temp, 80% humidity, 14 hour photoperiod of good light with 95° basking area, and you have a good formula. Exercise is also key to good growth and bone development. I favor longer rather than shorter soaks. I like them scrambling about in the soak getting good exercise!!

Here's some good food items to favor in the diet: Be sure a good amount of at least one of these is included in the daily offering:
Dandelion
Grape Leaves
Hibiscus Leaves
Opuntia cactus pads (prickley pear cactus pads)
Collards
endive
kale
turnip greens
alfalfa
clover
young grass


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## Shaye (Jan 23, 2018)

Tom said:


> Excessive amounts of calcium will not help, and too much calcium interferes with the absorption of other important nutrients and trace elements. Adding lots of calcium also fails to recognize and address the actual problem: Kidney damage due to dehydration.
> 
> Please send me the breeder's name and contact info either here or in a private message. The only way to stop this is to reach the breeders who are still doing it the wrong way.
> 
> ...


I'll send you the phone number.

I'm ok waiting a while. Getting a tort in winter probably wasn't the smartest of all ideas. I've waited years to get one and I'm not in any rush at this point. Where do you see the ads for torts?


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## Shaye (Jan 23, 2018)

Markw84 said:


> You don't need to "overload" calcium. You do need to ensure there is enough calcium in the diet. The critical ingredients for proper bone growth are Calcium, Phosphorus, Magnesium, and Vitamin D3. The first 3 will come with a good diet of dark green leafy greens and weeds. Try to favor items with high calcium content and a good (greater than 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio - as too much phosphorus can block calcium absorption. So just ensure a good balance of the good foods recommended here are offered daily. I also always introduce Mazuri tortoise food (original formula) to my tortoises as soon as possible. I'll soften a pellet and mix it with the food. All my tortoise take to it right away. It has a good balance of minerals and vitamins added so acts as the vitamin/mineral supplement for me. Next, be sure there is proper UVB exposure so the tortoise can metabolically make the proper amount of D3 it needs. With baby tortoises I always provide a good UVB light as they do so much better in a controlled indoor environment and outdoors is so hard to control the heat and humidity. Be sure the light is producing good UVB and mounted at the correct height. These things will take care of calcium requirements. Add that to the proper "climate" you provide = 80° min temp, 80% humidity, 14 hour photoperiod of good light with 95° basking area, and you have a good formula. Exercise is also key to good growth and bone development. I favor longer rather than shorter soaks. I like them scrambling about in the soak getting good exercise!!
> 
> Here's some good food items to favor in the diet: Be sure a good amount of at least one of these is included in the daily offering:
> Dandelion
> ...


I read somewhere that mazuri wasn't very good for baby torts because the protein? I'll pick up a few more things to ad to his diet, but so far he won't nibble on anything except cactus.


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## Tom (Jan 23, 2018)

Shaye said:


> I'll send you the phone number.
> 
> I'm ok waiting a while. Getting a tort in winter probably wasn't the smartest of all ideas. I've waited years to get one and I'm not in any rush at this point. Where do you see the ads for torts?


In the "For Sale" section of the forum.


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## Tom (Jan 23, 2018)

Shaye said:


> I read somewhere that mazuri wasn't very good for baby torts because the protein? I'll pick up a few more things to ad to his diet, but so far he won't nibble on anything except cactus.



This is false. In the old days people mistakenly thought that protein was the cause of pyramiding. It has been proven otherwise many times. Like any living animal, tortoises need a certain amount of protein for growth and health. Feeding them large quantities of meat would be bad. Feeding them a little plant protein as part of a varied diet is very good for them. The only time the would be a problem is if there were elevated protein levels in the diet and the tortoise was chronically dehydrated. This could cause "stones" to form. Since you will be soaking your baby daily, providing an appropriate water bowl, and keeping the tortoise with some humidity, this won't happen.

The "protein boogeyman" is a very persistent myth. We need to terminate him.


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## Shaye (Jan 24, 2018)

TammyJ said:


> Rooting for you and the little guy!


The more I soak him the more often he's getting these boosts of energy! Hopefully I caught the damage quickly enough for him to pull through.


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## Shaye (Jan 29, 2018)

Shaye said:


> The more I soak him the more often he's getting these boosts of energy! Hopefully I caught the damage quickly enough for him to pull through.


So I am planning to update this posting weekly because I always hated finding old threads completely Abandoned with no explanation.

I soak my tortoise for 30 full minutes every day, and two 30 minute soaks on the weekends. So far, he pooped yesterday while in the sunlight, and today he had poop on his butt when I picked him up. No pee or poop in baths.

He has not eaten since I posted about it. I offer fresh food everyday and I make sure to feed him in the enclosure now, to make sure hes warm enough. 

He was active enough to move from where he wanted to stay before, up until yesterday. He has almost entirely stopped moving on his own. I know this because after his bath I set him in his food dish and he didn't move for hours. Then I moved him to his water bowl, expecting him to scurry out. Again he stayed there for a while before I fished him out. 

This requires me to make sure he's in his warm hide and it's moist in there. He'll shift around in the hide, but only an inch.

He rarely opens more than one eye now. He cannot seem to stay awake, often falling asleep in his baths. He is very lethargic. 

I considered force feeding him, but I think it'll do more harm than good. It's heartbreaking to watch him struggle like this. I'm actually choked up writing this. 

I do not have a scale, but he has not grown. I'm sure of it. Also the top 4 scutes are hard on his shell, but the sides and tummy and extremely squishy. I have stopped prodding after today because it makes me sad and stresses him out. 

I will update in a week if he's still hanging around. I love him dearly, but things aren't looking great.


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## Bambam1989 (Jan 30, 2018)

So sorry that you're going through this. But grateful for the update


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## Musa Nathan (Jan 30, 2018)

Sulcatas love hot climates...


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## Bee62 (Jan 30, 2018)

Shaye said:


> So I am planning to update this posting weekly because I always hated finding old threads completely Abandoned with no explanation.
> 
> I soak my tortoise for 30 full minutes every day, and two 30 minute soaks on the weekends. So far, he pooped yesterday while in the sunlight, and today he had poop on his butt when I picked him up. No pee or poop in baths.
> 
> ...


Sorry to read about the health problems your baby has. It sounds to me that the kidneys are bad damaged from the dry start. Damnd breeder who does not know that he kills his babies !
I am sorry for you.


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## Shaye (Jan 30, 2018)

Musa Nathan said:


> Sulcatas love hot climates...


Yes but they still need humidity


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## Shaye (Jan 30, 2018)

I'm very sad to say that my tortoise, Aristortle, passed away today.

He also has a green spot on his tummy, for anyone who finds this post in the future


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 30, 2018)

Shaye said:


> I'm very sad to say that my tortoise, Aristortle, passed away today.
> 
> He also has a green spot on his tummy, for anyone who finds this post in the future



Oh no! I’m very sorry for your loss . It’s terrible when you do so much for something, only to not make it because of the fault of another. He will be missed.


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## Shaye (Jan 30, 2018)

TechnoCheese said:


> Oh no! I’m very sorry for your loss . It’s terrible when you do so much for something, only to not make it because of the fault of another. He will be missed.


I'm extremely distraught about it because regardless of me doing my best I wish I could have done more and helped him. I can't help but feeling like it was my fault. 

Thank you for the kind words. Maybe I'll get another Tortoise in the future.


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 30, 2018)

Shaye said:


> I'm extremely distraught about it because regardless of me doing my best I wish I could have done more and helped him. I can't help but feeling like it was my fault.
> 
> Thank you for the kind words. Maybe I'll get another Tortoise in the future.



There is nothing you could have done. I think you did the best thing for him- you gave him a great life before it was his time.
If you do get another tortoise, it would be a great idea to buy it off of this forum :,)
So sorry for your loss. It’s terrible how breeders could do this to their babies and clients


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## Shaye (Jan 30, 2018)

TechnoCheese said:


> There is nothing you could have done. I think you did the best thing for him- you gave him a great life before it was his time.
> If you do get another tortoise, it would be a great idea to buy it off of this forum :,)
> So sorry for your loss. It’s terrible how breeders could do this to their babies and clients


I thinks that's what bothers me the most. If the breeder had just looked a little into tortoises before breeding them they would know. If I, a beginning reptile enthusiast, could so easily find this why couldn't they?

I want to become an advocate for helping others understand this. It's heartbreaking having an animal you cared for pass away. I know I only had him for a short time, but I was prepared to have him for the rest of my life and got attached quickly. It's not fair for someone to sell animals so recklessly.


The breeders were furious when I told them he passed, and told me it was my fault and threatened to report me to the ASPCA for animal abuse. This obviously didn't make me feel much better. I asked nicely for my money back, but they refused and at that point I'd like to just grieve and not receive messages from such a person. The tortoise meant more to me than money. They shouldn't be selling an animal so recklessly. When I reached out for help (before this forum) they didn't even bother to respond, and when they did they accused me of wanting attention and lying about my torts condition. That shows you who I was working with.

I would love to buy a tort from this forum, as I can tell most are so knowledgeable. Maybe I should get a Russian because they don't grow so large. But that's another question for when I'm ready to take on raising a tort again.

THANK YOU: to everyone who was kind enough to help me in this situation. I'm much more informed than before I had posted, and I'm grateful for that. The tort that I do end up having for life will lead a very happy life because of it.  @Tom @Markw84


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 31, 2018)

Shaye said:


> I thinks that's what bothers me the most. If the breeder had just looked a little into tortoises before breeding them they would know. If I, a beginning reptile enthusiast, could so easily find this why couldn't they?
> 
> I want to become an advocate for helping others understand this. It's heartbreaking having an animal you cared for pass away. I know I only had him for a short time, but I was prepared to have him for the rest of my life and got attached quickly. It's not fair for someone to sell animals so recklessly.
> 
> ...



Maybe you could send the breeder a link to this thread, and maybe the hatchling failure syndrome one, along with the correct way to incubate and start babies?


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## Bee62 (Jan 31, 2018)

Shaye said:


> I'm very sad to say that my tortoise, Aristortle, passed away today.
> 
> He also has a green spot on his tummy, for anyone who finds this post in the future


I am so sorry for your loss. 
The dead of every baby tort really hurts me because it would be so easy to prevent the dead with humid conditions from the day they hatch. The dead of your baby was not your fault. It was the breeders.
I hope that you will find a breeder who start and keep his babies the right way and you start with a new healthy baby. Watching them grow and thrive is so much joy and fun.


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## Bee62 (Jan 31, 2018)

Shaye said:


> I'm extremely distraught about it because regardless of me doing my best I wish I could have done more and helped him. I can't help but feeling like it was my fault.
> 
> Thank you for the kind words. Maybe I'll get another Tortoise in the future.


It was not your fault ! Definitely not. Please don`t punish yourself.


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## Bee62 (Jan 31, 2018)

@Shaye 
I have 4 young sulcatas from 2 different breeders. All two breeders told me to keep them in an open rabbit cage on hay and give them only 2 a week water. Humidity should be low because they are a "_desert species_". No soaking of course ! That`s what I was told. 
Luckily I did my own research and found TFO. My babies live now in humid and warm closed chambers and grow well. The smallest one came to me already pyramided but I fight the long fight to smooth her shell with high humidity. The other 3 bigger ones are smooth. They came to me young enough to have no sickness from being kept to dry.
Now I tell everyone and everywhere how to raise these babies the right way. That is the most important thing we can do !


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## Tom (Jan 31, 2018)

Shaye said:


> I thinks that's what bothers me the most. If the breeder had just looked a little into tortoises before breeding them they would know. If I, a beginning reptile enthusiast, could so easily find this why couldn't they?



The answer to your question is as complex as the human psyche.

I've been fighting this fight and arguing with tortoise breeders for almost a decade now. The reactions and responses run the entire spectrum from hostility to indifference. We have all been taught this dry desert info for 30 years. Its what I was taught and its what I taught others. When the info failed to deliver the results I was looking for, and no one could explain why, I become obsessed with solving this mystery. The mystery is largely solved, and the solution proven thousands of times over, but there is still more to learn. So how do we undo 30 years of consistent but wrong info. This wrong info is in all the books, internet websites, it is repeated by vets, breeders and tortoise "experts". Most of the tortoise world still hasn't figured it out, and many of them get angry when told. Who wants to learn that they've been all wrong for 30 years and that their ignorance has led to the death of most of the babies they've produced? I've been laughed at, dismissed, insulted, berated, ignored, shunned, antagonized… you name it. Some experienced "expert" has done it to me. Some percentage of people have the ability to reserve judgment, take a look at the info/evidence presented, and accept new info. Some people don't. If you go back and look at my history on this forum you will see about a half dozen people a year that hate me and think I'm a great big jerk. Mixed in with those are about 100 people telling me thank you for helping them understand this new concept and helping their tortoise survive and thrive. My delivery isn't always the best, but sometimes the reaction is to info that conflicts with the previous info they were given. Somehow a person who puts two sulcatas together and gets eggs is some sort of "Master of all tortoise concepts", and their word becomes gospel. To challenge their word is heresy. Blasphemy! Its ridiculous. Is a back yard puppy breeder treated as a god of knowledge? Then why do tortoise breeders get this status? Or vets? "The tortoise needs a vitamin injection…" The reason they think this is because they know nothing about tortoises, and the vet handbook or website told them to upsell a "vitamin injection" as a way to get more money out of a client. Sometimes these injection harm or kill the baby tortoise! Yet the argument still comes: "Well, my Vet said…" Ask any vet how many semesters they had in school on tortoise husbandry.

I have a thick skin and callous attitude. People's petty insults don't bother me. I see it as a reflection of their character not mine, and so I continue on. Other people have a more "normal" disposition and tend to shy away from conflict and confrontation. Me? I'm stubborn, pig-headed and persistent. I've got Irsih blood mixed in there somewhere, and I like a good fight. I will take the attacks in stride and keep on doing what I think is right. I was frustrated that no one knew these answers when I was starting out. I'd like to help others not have to learn the hard way, as I did. The more of us that keep fighting this fight and spreading the correct info, the sooner stories like yours will cease to exist.


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## Jenna kamenski (Jan 31, 2018)

Shaye said:


> I'm very sad to say that my tortoise, Aristortle, passed away today.
> 
> He also has a green spot on his tummy, for anyone who finds this post in the future


I’m so sorry that you went through this...I went through the same exact thing with my baby sulcata...it was HEARTBREAKING, and what made it worse was I wake up to get ready for work to find out trooper passed and had to go to work and cried all day at work...I have learned a lot from this site and still learning, this is definitely a very resourceful forum and a lot of the people on here are very smart and knowledgeable...but just know you did nothing wrong, both incubation period and even after they hatch are very important and unfortunately there’s nothing that can be done when people are negligent...you did everything you could and I’m so sorry that you went through this


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## Shaye (Jan 31, 2018)

Jenna kamenski said:


> I’m so sorry that you went through this...I went through the same exact thing with my baby sulcata...it was HEARTBREAKING, and what made it worse was I wake up to get ready for work to find out trooper passed and had to go to work and cried all day at work...I have learned a lot from this site and still learning, this is definitely a very resourceful forum and a lot of the people on here are very smart and knowledgeable...but just know you did nothing wrong, both incubation period and even after they hatch are very important and unfortunately there’s nothing that can be done when people are negligent...you did everything you could and I’m so sorry that you went through this


That's exactly what happened, I came home and started warming water for his bath and came to take him out and found him dead. I didn't expect to cry because I've only had him since the 10th. But I cried all night last night.


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## Shaye (Jan 31, 2018)

Tom said:


> The answer to your question is as complex as the human psyche.
> 
> I've been fighting this fight and arguing with tortoise breeders for almost a decade now. The reactions and responses run the entire spectrum from hostility to indifference. We have all been taught this dry desert info for 30 years. Its what I was taught and its what I taught others. When the info failed to deliver the results I was looking for, and no one could explain why, I become obsessed with solving this mystery. The mystery is largely solved, and the solution proven thousands of times over, but there is still more to learn. So how do we undo 30 years of consistent but wrong info. This wrong info is in all the books, internet websites, it is repeated by vets, breeders and tortoise "experts". Most of the tortoise world still hasn't figured it out, and many of them get angry when told. Who wants to learn that they've been all wrong for 30 years and that their ignorance has led to the death of most of the babies they've produced? I've been laughed at, dismissed, insulted, berated, ignored, shunned, antagonized… you name it. Some experienced "expert" has done it to me. Some percentage of people have the ability to reserve judgment, take a look at the info/evidence presented, and accept new info. Some people don't. If you go back and look at my history on this forum you will see about a half dozen people a year that hate me and think I'm a great big jerk. Mixed in with those are about 100 people telling me thank you for helping them understand this new concept and helping their tortoise survive and thrive. My delivery isn't always the best, but sometimes the reaction is to info that conflicts with the previous info they were given. Somehow a person who puts two sulcatas together and gets eggs is some sort of "Master of all tortoise concepts", and their word becomes gospel. To challenge their word is heresy. Blasphemy! Its ridiculous. Is a back yard puppy breeder treated as a god of knowledge? Then why do tortoise breeders get this status? Or vets? "The tortoise needs a vitamin injection…" The reason they think this is because they know nothing about tortoises, and the vet handbook or website told them to upsell a "vitamin injection" as a way to get more money out of a client. Sometimes these injection harm or kill the baby tortoise! Yet the argument still comes: "Well, my Vet said…" Ask any vet how many semesters they had in school on tortoise husbandry.
> 
> I have a thick skin and callous attitude. People's petty insults don't bother me. I see it as a reflection of their character not mine, and so I continue on. Other people have a more "normal" disposition and tend to shy away from conflict and confrontation. Me? I'm stubborn, pig-headed and persistent. I've got Irsih blood mixed in there somewhere, and I like a good fight. I will take the attacks in stride and keep on doing what I think is right. I was frustrated that no one knew these answers when I was starting out. I'd like to help others not have to learn the hard way, as I did. The more of us that keep fighting this fight and spreading the correct info, the sooner stories like yours will cease to exist.


I'm so thankful that you're the type not to back down. People deserve to have correct information about raising any animal, and anyone who owns a reptile knows they are nothing like a dog or cat you can feed kibble, water, and Pat on the head whenever. I've had a lot of reptiles since I was 7 years old. Even before I joined this forum, I was reading posts on and off. It's frustrating that people believe they're experts on an animal because they own it and it's not dead. That's not how it works. 

My S/O said his co-worker has two sulcatas who have babies every year and will ask if I can have one and I had to almost yell that I didn't want it. I don't know how they raise them. What if the two they have have horrible pyramiding because they eat cat food and iceberg in a dry environment? I do not want another dead tort. Backyard breeders are the same for all species, like you said.

I wanted to take my tort to a vet, but don't know the credible herp vets. So I refrained. Watching him get worse daily was hard, but him dying abruptly from a vitamin shot would have crushed me. I thought time was the best medicine. 

Again, I just want to thank you. I'll try and do my part to post about this too. I'm not as wise as you, but I'm hoping I'll get there. And maybe the next tort I get will just be a drive out to you, and I can thank you in person. Either way, I'm very appreciative that you're helpful despite being harrassed the way you are. 

(Any response from the breeder I sent you?)


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## Jenna kamenski (Jan 31, 2018)

Shaye said:


> That's exactly what happened, I came home and started warming water for his bath and came to take him out and found him dead. I didn't expect to cry because I've only had him since the 10th. But I cried all night last night.


Completely understand...I didn’t realize how attached I was till I found out my baby passed...my hubby even cried and I’ve only seen him cry once before in the 5 years we’ve been together...it’s crazy how attached we get to our pets...I really do hope you find comfort during this trying time


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## CarolM (Jan 31, 2018)

I have been following your posts and I cannot imagine having to go through what you have. I am so sorry that this happened to you and your little one. I know that these are just words and at the end of the day they cannot take the pain away. But I will be thinking of you and hope that with time the pain will lessen.


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