# Tortoise Mythbusters Part 2!



## Madkins007 (Jan 16, 2011)

Welcome to the second season of Tortoise Mythbusters, where we take comments made about tortoises and see if we can prove or disprove them on the basis of good scientific principles!

Today's topic: "Red-foots are forest tortoises".

This is a commonly seen statement and seems to drive a lot of care recommendations- 'Red-foots are sensitive to light', 'Red-foots need fruit or meat', etc. because they are considered a rain forest animal. 

BUSTED. While Red-foots are found in the deep forest in some places, their distribution is more weighted to habitats AROUND the rain forests and rain forest openings. If you look at a map of their range and South American land uses, most of their range is to the north and to the south of the Amazon Basin rain forest zone.

Most researchers and authors say the same thing. Part of the problem is that most writers use the word 'tropical' to describe the wild habitats and it is easy to see that and assume 'rain forest', but tropical simply means that it lives in the 'tropical zone' of the world between the Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of Capricorn.

Part of the problem is that we don't know as much about this species as we would like to. We don't know the exact range, possible subspecies, hatchling behavior, etc. Part of the problem is our casual use of the word 'forest', again, which implies rain forest while much of the habitat is scrub forest, thorn forest, and other types of habitat.

Still not convinced? In South America, the common name for the Red-foot is 'Savannah Tortoise'. The Yellow-foot is the 'Forest Tortoise'. In other words, the people who live with them recognize this basic difference.

There are some implications for cares with this. Red-foots do experience seasons- although they are not as extreme as ours. They also get a lot of light, including UVB, from the wild. They are not particularly light sensitive- although hatchlings of all tort species are shy, and it is easy to over-light any tortoises cage. 

Bottom line- Red-foots are not ANTI-forest species, but an adaptable species that is at home in a wide variety of habitat... just mostly the 'wet savannahs' for most if its range.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jan 16, 2011)

Thanks for the post. I kinda knew that, but its still interesting.

You never addressed your meat comment. Can you expand on that?


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## Madkins007 (Jan 16, 2011)

Meat- there is a perception that Red-foots NEED meat in their diet. In the wild, they eat a lot (up to about 10% of their diet by weight) of things like invertebrates, termites, butterflies, and old carrion. Actual stool samples indicate that what we usually think of as 'meat' is only a very small part of the diet. Most of what we offer for meat is pretty fresh, 'rich', and often rather fatty compared to their wild fare.

Sure, given a chance, they will dine on fresh-killed meat until they are stuffed, but then they go and sleep it off for a few weeks. 

I think a more fair statement would be to say to offer insects freely, with very occasional other meat options.


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## 81SHOVELHEAD (Jan 22, 2011)

Controvesy UVB or no UVB ,
Hello 
I'm am not an expert by no means, since i've only had my 2 Red foots for 6 weeks.
Bought a male & female the week b4 Christmas 
SCL = 4.5 On Male 4.0 on female 
Set them up in a 40 gallon criter keeper using 75 watt halogen bulb and under tank heat mat for heat & lighting.
Coconut coir & mosser lee moss as substrate.
Temps 90's under halogen light ,80's on cool end using digital probe thermometer to monitor
Humidity 70's to 90's 
These torts were sluggish & I did not feel they were eating as well as they should be.
After Vet visit & parasite free fecal sample i was thinking just maybe UVB may help these little guys.
Being a beardered dragon owner, i come to appreciate the powers of the MV bulbs .
Ordered Mega ray 100 sb from reptileuv.com and replaced halogen with Mega-ray.
This light is shining through screen top on critter keeper 
Raised it up a bit to maintain 90 f warm side .
After 2 weeks under the Mega ray i now have a very energetic ,eating machne pair of tortoise .
They are on a diet of mustard ,collard,turnip greens,with occasinal squash & carrots in the mix ,
I give them a treat of fruits apples ,cantalope, melon once a week .
Throw in some low fat cat food every 7 or 8 days ,
Now question is could it be the improvement is due to having UVB lighting? or is it just because they are becoming comfortable in their new home .
i would like to beleive that it is the UVB that they are receiving.but as i said earlier i am no expert on tortoises but learning to appreciate these little guys more & more each day .
Thanks to all the people here for guidence on correct husbandry.
Mike D.


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## cdmay (Jan 22, 2011)

Wow Madkins007, that is well researched, factual and well said too. It is a good idea to clarify certain ideas that are commonly held about the species we keep. In the case of red-foots many folks assume that tropical South America is one giant rainforest jungle.
I reminds me of the mental concept people often have about desert tortoises or tortoise species that are spoken of as living 'in a desert environment', and what that really means.
For many people this conjures up a mental picture of a tortoise walking across a barren sand dune like Lawrence of Arabia.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 22, 2011)

81shovelhead...UVB does not go thru small screen. So depending on how small or large your screen is, your guys may not be getting any UVB...I'd get rid of the screen...
sorry to hijack your thread mark...


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 22, 2011)

Does maintaining [ like a few of us have ] redfoot tortoises for at least the first 'phase' of their life count for anything? - that would be the first 10+ years from hatchling to a mature adult demonstrating the ability to produce off-spring.

Would that experience indicate where they prefer to abide 'most' of the time? 

A few of _us_ ( Carl in particular ) know those that have maintained a multitude of redfoot tortoises for decades - but it's virtually impossible to get them to talk......... they being a much better source than someone who has spent a much shorter time [ in comparison ] traveling around in South America observing smaller areas and numbers.... and then writing about them.

Few these days [ with any experience ] refer to redfoots being "forest" tortoises anymore. I believe most realize they do live on the edges.. and prefer more shade and higher humidity.

This being an "environmental" thread I'll not address the degree of "omnivorousness" [ is that a word? ] they practice given the chance!







Terry K


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## Candy (Jan 22, 2011)

I'm loving this information that you're providing for us Mark. I only wish I read as much as you must.  I would love to see some pictures if you have any of their "Tropical" environment. As for the meat thingy, Dale eats (as you know) elk meat and I'm sure it's not the same as they would find in the wild. If I give it to him too often the funny thing is he won't eat it, although the babies will, funny huh? As for the light, he will definitely bask in the sun outside for a while and then he will hide under his favorite palm tree. The babies pretty much hide all of the time.


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## terryo (Jan 22, 2011)

What about the Brazilian Cherry Head? Where in Brazil would they come from? I notice some posts in the classified's saying "pure Brazilian Cherry Heads". What does this mean, and do they mean that they come from the Brazilian Rain Forest?


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## cdmay (Jan 22, 2011)

terryo said:


> What about the Brazilian Cherry Head? Where in Brazil would they come from? I notice some posts in the classified's saying "pure Brazilian Cherry Heads". What does this mean, and do they mean that they come from the Brazilian Rain Forest?



Terryo, The cherryhead form of red-foots are reportedly from the Brazilian state of Bahia where the climate is hot and much drier than the rainforest areas. The vegetation is much more sparse as well. The town of Lencois is a known locality for cherry-heads and it is not in the rainforest.
Another known locality for them is Baixa Grande, Brazil and like Lencois it too is regarded as semi-arid with very hot and dry seasons. Certainly not rainforest.


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## terryo (Jan 22, 2011)

So why do we have to "spray them til they drip", and keep them so humid?


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## Kristina (Jan 22, 2011)

The simple answer is that they tend to pyramid if you don't. One of those things where you still have to draw your own conclusions.


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## cdmay (Jan 22, 2011)

terryo said:


> So why do we have to "spray them til they drip", and keep them so humid?



Well, you don't actually have to spray them _that_ much to achieve a good humidity level, but I get your question. You must understand that even in locations that experience dry seasons a small animal like a juvenile tortoise (or even an adult) is going to seek out as humid a microhabitat as they can find. All terrestrial turtles and tortoises are experts at disappearing into dead vegatation, leaf piles, tufts of grass and so on. They will also exploit any other form of ground cover that will shelter them through difficult times. In addition, any burrow made by mammals small and large are attractive to tortoises as hiding places as they too retain moisture levels far above the exposed places around them.
In harsh regions where red-foots tortoises live, like the Gran Chaco of Paraguay, the animals simply disappear and remain inactive during the dry season or during cold weather only to reappear when conditions are more to their liking.


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## Madkins007 (Jan 22, 2011)

TerryO- for the love of all that is shelled, don't go there in this thread! 

Seriously, there are several aspects to that.

1. Even in the drier climates in their range, the actual places they are tend to be green. The Vinke's, in their discussions of the Red-foots in the non-rain forest, and non-rain forest edge habitat of the Gran Chaco (Paraguay and Bolivia) mention that even in the mostly dry reaches, Red-foots can be found in the lower green valleys and riverside areas while the Chaco Tortoise is found in the higher, drier areas. 

2. They prefer a decent humidity overall. For some of us, that means things like misting or other aggressive humidity interventions. Some of us (like you danged Hawaiians and southern Floridians) are lucky enough that this is not a key issue.

3. Humidity is just one part of smooth shell growth. Good bone growth is the key, and proper hydration/humidity is just one part of the formula.


(Hi, Carl, who was apparently posting when I was!)


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## Candy (Jan 22, 2011)

Wow for a minute I thought it was going to go into another pyramiding thread.  

I was wondering though if anyone knows if the flooding that Brazil had recently was in any of the places that you guys were speaking about? I'm hoping not as it was very bad.


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## terryo (Jan 22, 2011)

TerryO- for the love of all that is shelled, don't go there in this thread!

I really laughed out loud reading that Mark.

Mark, I never mentioned pyramiding, and I wasn't even thinking about that.  Actually I was thinking about location, like your first post mentioned. 
So actually there are no RF's ..Cherry or whatever that come from the hot, wet, very humid rainforest, with very little sun filtered through the trees.


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## Madkins007 (Jan 22, 2011)

It is hard to find records of large numbers of Red-foots in the same locations as Yellow-foots. There are some places, like the island of Maraca (where Deb Moscovitz did her famous dissertation), where you can find both, but that is considered a bit of an anomaly by a lot of field researchers.

Of course, the full-blown rain forest is not solid green, hot, and wet either. Like a New York forest in the summer, there are millions of microhabitats, openings, and so on where it can be cooler, drier, wetter, etc. And, a lot of the non-rain forest regions in South America are still hot and wet, they just experience more variation than the relatively stable Amazon Basin.

The Bahia is 564,692.7 square kilometers. New York is 128,403- only about 1/4th of the size, and look at all of the major and minor climatic zones just in New York. (The Amazon Basin is a whopping 8,235,430 K2!) 

As an Omahan, I firmly and unconsciously 'know' that all of New York is a giant city from edge to edge- making the same error we make when we think of the Amazon Basin or the Bahia as being all one thing.

(I'm tired and I think I wandered from the point here, but think I will just end it now before I dig in any deeper!)


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## Angi (Jan 22, 2011)

I was not expecting this thread to be so interested. Great thread. I amn amazed at how smart/knowledgable some of you are.


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## cdmay (Jan 23, 2011)

terryo said:


> TerryO- for the love of all that is shelled, don't go there in this thread!
> So actually there are no RF's ..Cherry or whatever that come from the hot, wet, very humid rainforest, with very little sun filtered through the trees.



Like Madkins007 said, there ARE some populations of red-foots that do live in fairly dense rainforest. But even then, those tortoises have been mostly found in clearings or sun/shade mosaic habitat.


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## Balboa (Jan 23, 2011)

I haven't done near the level of research that either Mark or Carl have, but I have gotten the distinct impression that even when living in the "savannah" type biomes, redfoots prefer what's called gallery forests. If you have ever driven through arid parts of the midwest you've probably seen them before. These are the narrow forests that grow along river banks, but get more than a stones throw from the river and it goes to grassland.

It makes me think the term "near-forest" is perfect for redfoots. Its like they ideally want to be at most a days walk from either forest or field at any given time.


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## Madkins007 (Jan 23, 2011)

Angi said:


> I was not expecting this thread to be so interested. Great thread. I amn amazed at how smart/knowledgable some of you are.



Ha! I just don't have many other hobbies and really like to read about stuff and share what I learn. If the thread was something like the upcoming Superbowl, I could not contribute squat. I honestly do not know who is even playing. 

But since I like research, I looked it up to see that NFL and AFL are involved somehow. Further research shows that the AFL is the Australian Football League and their Grand Finale is October 1, 2011, so I am not sure why all the hype this early. I am also a bit unsure why they would play the National Forensics League here in the US? Debate and Aussie football go hand in hand, certainly, but this seems to be taking it too far.

Oddly, I find no info on the Superbowl site anything about Australia or Forensics, so apparently they are hugely confused about it all too. Heck, the ball they call a 'football' doesn't even look like a BALL, much less the football the Australians use. 

Further, all of the players in the Superbowl site are wearing some sort of helmet-like headgear that none of the people in the AFL or NFL's sites show. I can sort of see the need for headgear playing Aussie 'football', but why would debaters need it?


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## Balboa (Jan 23, 2011)

ROFLMAO


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 23, 2011)

Balboa said:


> I haven't done near the level of research that either Mark or Carl have, but I have gotten the distinct impression that even when living in the "savannah" type biomes, redfoots prefer what's called gallery forests. If you have ever driven through arid parts of the midwest you've probably seen them before. These are the narrow forests that grow along river banks, but get more than a stones throw from the river and it goes to grassland.
> 
> It makes me think the term "near-forest" is perfect for redfoots. Its like they ideally want to be at most a days walk from either forest or field at any given time.



I agree with the "close-to" idea Balboa.. and they proby don't get much more than a few hours away - why would they?.. nothing to speak of to eat, drink or hide in! 

Since '05 I've claimed they were "near-forest".. on my caresheet - so you know I believe it to be a perfect term.

The main difference is Mark researches and Carl has experienced many of these characteristics [ as well as a few others ] first hand or have friends/acquaintances that live where these creatures live.

[ I'm looking for a related email from a keeper in Rio De ]

NERD


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## Candy (Jan 23, 2011)

Ha! I just don't have many other hobbies and really like to read about stuff and share what I learn. If the thread was something like the upcoming Superbowl, I could not contribute squat. I honestly do not know who is even playing. 




Are you kidding me Madkins?  GREENBAY ALL THE WAY!


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## Madkins007 (Jan 23, 2011)

Redfoot NERD said:


> Balboa said:
> 
> 
> > I haven't done near the level of research that either Mark or Carl have, but I have gotten the distinct impression that even when living in the "savannah" type biomes, redfoots prefer what's called gallery forests. If you have ever driven through arid parts of the midwest you've probably seen them before. These are the narrow forests that grow along river banks, but get more than a stones throw from the river and it goes to grassland.
> ...



Apparently, the word 'forest' is causing confusion. A forest or 'forest edge' animal _needs _the trees. They provide food, shelter, ways to hunt or hide, etc. They regulate the climate, lighting, etc. Yellow-foot Tortoises are a true forest animal. They eat more fruit, are more light and climate sensitive, and do not even dig nests or use burrows since they would just flood. 

Red-foots do not need trees in the same way. Some of their fruit still comes from trees but as much or more comes from cacti, shrubs, etc. They don't need trees to block the light, provide shelter, hunt from, hide from predators in, etc. Trees are around, but relatively unimportant in most Red-foot habitat. 

Red-foots are also almost always found near water, but we do not call them riparian or riverine animals because they are not _using _the riverside habitat in a special way. However, the presence of water is MUCH more important to them and their habitat selection than the trees are. The trees are there for the same reason- reliable access to water.

Since they don't need forests, they are not a forest or forest edge animal.

..........................................................

Heck, NERD, you don't need to wait for an email, just look at the tortoise farm sites http://www.geochelone.com.br/usa/index.cfm and http://www.carbonaria.com/index.html. They are by people who live in the Cherry-head tortoise zone, and have raised thousands of Red-foots in or near their native habitat. They are actually between Rio de Janerio and the Amazon Rainforest, so should be more 'foresty' than Rio, right?

The first site (Santa Rita) says "Bahia's countryside is very dry. When the drought time comes ,the animals and plants die because of the hot sun and the lack of rain ; the animals try hard to survive and find some food and water , but the weakest ones always perish."

The second site (Santa Cruz) says "Geographically it is inside of the semi-arid zone of the Bahia state where the average rainfall is 600mm yearly.

Nothing to eat, drink, or hide in? How do grassland tortoises around the world live in savannah habitats then? 

.......................................................

In an earlier post, NERD said 
_"Does maintaining [ like a few of us have ] redfoot tortoises for at least the first 'phase' of their life count for anything? - that would be the first 10+ years from hatchling to a mature adult demonstrating the ability to produce off-spring.

Would that experience indicate where they prefer to abide 'most' of the time? 

A few of us ( Carl in particular ) know those that have maintained a multitude of redfoot tortoises for decades - but it's virtually impossible to get them to talk......... they being a much better source than someone who has spent a much shorter time [ in comparison ] traveling around in South America observing smaller areas and numbers.... and then writing about them."_

I was going to ignore this, but as long as I am responding to another NERD post, I may as well hit this as well.

1. I consider NERD knowledgeable in raising Red-foots in Tennessee. He has 5-10 years of experience and has seen about 200 torts. He has certainly bred them, but seems to have low reproductive success so far, which he even comments about on his site.

2. The people I trust for references and advice have bred more animals for a lot longer. I have not asked for permission to use any of their names here.

3. Besides the experienced breeders I have listened to, I have also read the books, articles, reports, abstracts, etc. of dozens of researchers working over a hundred years and documenting thousands of tortoises.

4. Some of the researchers actually LIVE IN THE AREA where Red-foots are found. NERD mentions a contact in Rio de Janerio- a place on the very edge of Red-foot territory. Many other people have lived in the heart of the territory and have added their own writings to the collection.

5. Sources? Check out http://www.tortoiselibrary.com/bibliography.html for articles and books by De Sousa, Fidenci, Freiberg, Iverson, Legler, Merchan, Ojasti, Pritchard, Trebbau, and Vargas-Ramirez- and those are just the ones I listed there. There is much, much more online, although much of it is in Spanish and is harder to search.


.....................................................

None of this changes the fact that the Red-foot Tortoise needs warm, humid habitat most of the time.


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## Candy (Jan 23, 2011)

What Mark you can write all that to Terry, but you can't even acknowledge that I told you who was going to the Superbowl?   And by the way the second link didn't work for me could you post it again? By the way.....Way to "Man-up" on that post.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jan 23, 2011)

I really want somebody to post pictures of these habitats... places where they found real, wild RFs... That'd be neat.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 24, 2011)

Maybe we can relate this topic to a "Dog HUNT" Mark - hunting here and there to determine where would be the "best" environment for a redfoot tortoise to live? We can always talk about the exceptions and extremes.. even tho' they have been known to live there also.

There are a very few [ of us ] actual long-term keepers/breeders that even frequent this forum. And more and more fewer are saying less. Each and every one has told me personally that whenever the environment becomes a 'challenge' and/or their care is compromised in even the slightest way.. temps, humidity, diet, etc., etc. their redfoots seem to be 'unhappy'? and not want to or actually do not produce with the consistency they once had in the past.. meaning numbers and colors.

When I asked or commented if ( our ) personal experiences counted for anything it was only that.. a simple question and/or comment - not to cause a Dog FIGHT. It almost seems Mark that that is what you have made this topic. And for that reason I'm really sorry this has played out like this.

Hopefully this is not edited in any way.

And hopefully not one thinks that they can keep redfoot tortoises in a sparse hot and dry environment. The adverse extremes found in any of these links and statements are just that.. extremes. 

And yes the least of Marks above is true.. 
*"None of this changes the fact that the Red-foot Tortoise needs warm, humid habitat most of the time."* - maybe this should have been emphasized?

NERD


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## Madkins007 (Jan 24, 2011)

Candy- My dad was a diehard Packers fan, so even though I honestly don't follow football, I thought it was funny that you chose them as well, and apparently they are in!

The second link is the the Santa Cruz Tortoise Farm- http://www.carbonaria.com/prod.htm . Hopefully, that will work.

Jordan- the book 'South American Tortoises' by the Vinke's shows a lot of habitats. There are also some on-line articles the Vinke's have written that you can find in the Bibliography in the Tortoise Library- http://www.tortoiselibrary.com/bibliography.html that show some illustrations. The two tortoise farms mentioned above also show some.

Sorry, NERD- I wasn't the one looking for a fight. You posted that first bit challenging me, trying to bait me by claiming that for some unknown reason, the experience of a guy over a few years with a handful of tortoises is somehow superior to research, documentation, the experiences of other people, etc. I ignored it. Then you posted some more along the same lines and I replied.

You were looking for a fight. You may claim you are all pure and innocent, but you started it and when no one rose to your bait, you tried again. You are still mistaken in your opinion that Red-foots are primarily a rainforest species, so you try to veer the fight a bit to the side- trying to me look like the bully, suggesting that someone would edit your post (as if!), etc. You even mentioned the warm and humid bit again as if that was the main point and I was telling people to raise them cold and dry or something. What a crock. 

If you want to discuss their primary habitat choices, fine- show me something that looks like proof or research. Whip out your copy of Deb Moscovits' dissertation or something. Show me emails from people in the midst of true Red-foot habitat that have actually explored other areas for population comparisons, something. You mention Rio de? There are those who suggest that the Red-foots in Rio de Janerio are a colony started by released pets since Rio is so far from other Red-foot territories. You DID know that Rio is far, far from the Amazon rainforest, right?

Heck, maybe you can explain to us why you call this a 'forest edge' species when the local name of the species is Savannah Tortoise. Stick to the real topic and I will be happy to keep discussing it with you.


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## Candy (Jan 24, 2011)

Thanks for posting the second link and yes it did work.


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## terryo (Jan 25, 2011)

DoctorCosmonaut said:


> I really want somebody to post pictures of these habitats... places where they found real, wild RFs... That'd be neat.



No pictures Jordan, but the next best thing. Very interesting article from Andy Highfield.

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html


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## Madkins007 (Jan 25, 2011)

TerryO- that is a GREAT article! I strongly recommend it and many others in at http://www.tortoisetrust.org . As people read it, however, remember that it applies to Mediterranean species and not necessarily to Red-foots in regards to the low humidities found. 

The South American Chaco Tortoise comes from similar habitats in South America, especially in the Gran Chaco region of southeast Brazil, Paraguay and Bolivia, but Red-foots, even from that same area, are usually found in greener, damper, more humid microclimates.


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## terryo (Jan 25, 2011)

Madkins007 said:


> TerryO- that is a GREAT article! I strongly recommend it and many others in at http://www.tortoisetrust.org . As people read it, however, remember that it applies to Mediterranean species and not necessarily to Red-foots in regards to the low humidities found.
> 
> The South American Chaco Tortoise comes from similar habitats in South America, especially in the Gran Chaco region of southeast Brazil, Paraguay and Bolivia, but Red-foots, even from that same area, are usually found in greener, damper, more humid microclimates.



Mark I just saw the map in your library. I love it! You never stop amazing me with all your research. I want a BOOK!!


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## tortoises101 (Jan 30, 2011)

"It is hard to find records of large numbers of Red-foots in the same locations as Yellow-foots. There are some places, like the island of Maraca (where Deb Moscovitz did her famous dissertation), where you can find both, but that is considered a bit of an anomaly by a lot of field researchers."

I believe that it's because redfoots and yellowfoots may be competitors with each other (space, diet, food, etc). That's probably why in some places you can find redfoots in rainforests with no yellowfoots and some places you can find yellowfoots in tropical savannas with no redfoots.


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## Madkins007 (Jan 30, 2011)

tortoises101 said:


> "It is hard to find records of large numbers of Red-foots in the same locations as Yellow-foots. There are some places, like the island of Maraca (where Deb Moscovitz did her famous dissertation), where you can find both, but that is considered a bit of an anomaly by a lot of field researchers."
> 
> I believe that it's because redfoots and yellowfoots may be competitors with each other (space, diet, food, etc). That's probably why in some places you can find redfoots in rainforests with no yellowfoots and some places you can find yellowfoots in tropical savannas with no redfoots.



Do you have any research to back that thought up? 

For my side of the discussion, there are museum specimens of Red- and Yellow-foots that have been collected for over a hundred years with locality info recorded, many reports of field studies form people who live there, and more that support the idea that Red-foots are not common in the rain forest and Yellow-foots are almost never found outside it. And of course there are the other documents I mention in the OP.

There also has to be a reason the two species split some 4 million years ago- and the geological history of the area seems to support the idea that the splits occurred as the conditions of the rainforest shifted, and the range and timing also suggest that the Yellow-foot colonized the rain forest, and the Red-foot did the rest of the South American tropics.


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## tortoises101 (Jan 31, 2011)

Madkins007 said:


> tortoises101 said:
> 
> 
> > "It is hard to find records of large numbers of Red-foots in the same locations as Yellow-foots. There are some places, like the island of Maraca (where Deb Moscovitz did her famous dissertation), where you can find both, but that is considered a bit of an anomaly by a lot of field researchers."
> ...



http://nlbif.eti.uva.nl/bis/turtles.php?selected=beschrijving&menuentry=soorten&id=380
On the habitat section.


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## Madkins007 (Jan 31, 2011)

Tony- isn't that a great site?

From the site:
"Habitat
Where it is sympatric with _Geochelone denticulata, G. carbonaria_ is more prevalent in moist savannahs (which are seldom entered by _denticulata_), but where _denticulata_ does not occur, _carbonaria_ seems to be a humid forest dweller. Perhaps there is competitive exclusion by _denticulata_."

Sympatric means the ranges overlap. I got my wrists slapped by an experienced keeper when I mentioned that sympatric meant they shared habitat. Trout and elk are sympatric, but do not share habitat, which would be 'syntopic' if I recall the term correctly. 

As the article mentions, Red-foots (_G. carbonaria_ for those who need a scorecard) are mostly found in wet savannah (which is not quite true. Wet savannah technically is more of a marsh like habitat much of the year. They are found in the wet parts of dry savannah according to most researchers)

The idea about competitive exclusion is the idea that back a few million years ago, when _G. carbonaria_ split from _G. denticulata_ (Yellow-foots in case some readers are getting lost with the scientific names), the Yellow-foots were the masters of the rain forest habitat and generally bigger, so the Red-foots exploited other habitats.

Another version of this possibility is that the groups of tortoises were separated by climatic or geographical changes- rainforest breaking up into segments separated by rivers or other barriers. 

I made up a map at http://www.tortoiselibrary.com/rangemap.html that combines info from Pritchard's "Turtles of Venezuela", Iverson's turtle maps (http://emys.geo.orst.edu/cgi-bin/emysmap?tn=137&cf=ijklmno), and info from others. On it, the Yellow-foot range is basically the same as the extent of the Amazon Basin rain forests. Most Red-foot range is to the north or south of the Basin, and records IN the basin are spotty, other than a few areas with forest openings, etc.

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OK, so why is this Myth even an issue? Because of the effects it has on cares.

We have heard from people who believe this to be primarily a deep forest animal that Red-foots are light-shy, but most keepers find that this is not true. Sure, the babies are, but all baby tortoises are shy. (And, of course, you can easily offer too much of the wrong kinds of lights.)

We hear that that Red-foots don't need UVB because they would not get it in the deep forest. This is not true on a few levels- UVB does penetrate more than visible light does and hits the forest floor, and Red-foots are not deep forest animals anyway. Wild fungi are also rich in vitamin D (unlike store-bought mushrooms) and a popular food of forest species.

We hear that Red-foots don't bask. Yet Red-foots are well-documented basking in the wild and bask in the sun or under lamps for lots of keepers. 

We are told by some that they don't need a temperature gradient, yet even in the deepest rainforest, temps vary by up to 20 or more degrees naturally between microclimates. Red-foot habitat in South America experiences a wide range of temperatures and climatic conditions. Red-foots in captivity are often seen using temperature gradients to thermoregulate.

There are also dietary issues related to this, like the proportions of fruit or meat we offer- almost always too much of foods that are too rich in protein, carbohydrates, fats, and so on. But we do it anyway because 'forest tortoises eat a lot of fruit and meat' without putting that information in the proper context.

As I've said a few times already- warm and humid is still correct. Even the grassiest area Red-foots come from are more humid than the typical grasslands around the world.


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## Balboa (Jan 31, 2011)

The red-foot, yellow-foot conundrum is a fascinating one isn't it? Mark and I have already debated back and forth about it many times.

I shared this paper a while back with Mark
http://www.evoamazon.net/Legal_papers/Farias 2007.pdf

Their findings (at least in the sympatric area they studied) showed gene flow between denticulata and carbonaria, as well as much greater gene diversity in Denticulata versus Carbonaria. There were also indicators that Carbonaria was in "rapid expansion".

I forget where, though I'm sure if I tried hard enough I could dig it up, I read that some of the only fossil remains yet to date found for the genus were closer to Denticulata than Carbonaria.

All this leads me to believe that Denticulata is essentially the proto-species for Carbonaria, an off-shoot of chance, more specialized for life further outside of the "rain-forest".

Another element to consider is that the rainforest looked very different from what it does today just 500 years ago. It was host to a fairly advanced human civilization that has now vanished (researchers hypothesize that disease spread by the conquistadors eradicted it) and the jungle has reclaimed its land.

This civilization likely had a dramatic impact on the distribution of both Denticulata and Carbonaria.

To bring this all back to the point, it becomes a very complex issue to understand the proper place of both species in south america. How things are now is not how they were for the majority of the last few thousand years.


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## Madkins007 (Feb 1, 2011)

Balboa said:


> (snip)
> 
> This civilization likely had a dramatic impact on the distribution of both Denticulata and Carbonaria.
> 
> To bring this all back to the point, it becomes a very complex issue to understand the proper place of both species in south america. How things are now is not how they were for the majority of the last few thousand years.



And even that history pales in comparison to the estimated 4 million years since the Red-foot is thought to have split from the Yellow-foot in!


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## methos75 (Feb 8, 2011)

I have to point out some of my own recent experiences with Redfoots, and their lighting and UVB needs. I like many others looked at where the many care sheets stated they avoided bright lights, and placed them in set-ups with dim lights. Also we fore go the use of UVB lights, since it was stated diet was more important. I kept my set-up at 95 degrees on one side and 75-80 degree on the other, my Redfoots were active in the morning and late evening and that was it, other than that they slept in their hide. Last week I changed up their set-up and placed a much brighter 100 Watt light over their basking area, and placed a flat rock under it, but temps stayed the same basically. I increased the lighting also by adding a 10.0 Reptisun Bulb, so that there was more light as well as UVB getting to them. The result of this is two vastly more active Redfoots who stay out all day now exploring and basking for hours a day, and who eat much better. IMO its obvious that some of the general info we hear could be very wrong about these things.


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## Balboa (Feb 8, 2011)

Interesting Methos,

your findings are similar to mine.


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## 81SHOVELHEAD (Feb 8, 2011)

Methos75 wrote:
I increased the lighting also by adding a 10.0 Reptisun Bulb, so that there was more light as well as UVB getting to them. The result of this is two vastly more active Redfoots who stay out all day now exploring and basking for hours a day, and who eat much better. IMO its obvious that some of the general info we hear could be very wrong about these things

Very interesting i also increased the lighting by adding a mega-ray 100 Watt MVB bulb and also observed an increase in activity level & eating habits.


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## jackrat (Feb 8, 2011)

There is a possibility that I will be working in French Guyana soon. If I do,I plan on taking some pictures of redfoots where they live and sharing them with you.


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## methos75 (Feb 8, 2011)

It really seems to me that Redfoots do enjoy bright lighting and UVB, contrary to what is generally believed.


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## terryo (Feb 9, 2011)

When mine is outside for the Summer, she will spend most of the day out of her hide. She sits in the stream in the hot sun for hours, then will spend some time sitting under a hosta, and then back in the sun again. As the sun moves during the day I find that she will move with it. At around 5 pm when the sun is at it's last stage on the side of her garden that's where she is, and then she will go into her hide.
When she's inside for the Winter, even though she has a UVB, she goes in her hide in the afternoon, and doesn't come out any more for the day.


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## Madkins007 (Feb 9, 2011)

methos75 said:


> It really seems to me that Redfoots do enjoy bright lighting and UVB, contrary to what is generally believed.



That is why I thought this was an important myth to bust.


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