# Need some help to find Pyramiding debate posts



## Farcryjj (Dec 5, 2019)

Hi, I'm trying to help a Canadian tortoise breeder who is willing to learn more newer information about raising baby tortoises. He is the only breeder in Canada that breeds Egyptian tortoise, but sadly, all his little babies are pyramiding. He raises them in open top enclosures with humid hides. 
I remember reading about lots of debate posts here about the cause of pyramiding before. I think the consensus is that Humidity is almost the only factor that impact the pyramiding in all species of tortoise. However, there are so many posts here that I can't find the good ones easily. I'm wondering if anyone have saved links to some of the good posts which came to the conclusion about pyramiding? Thanks!!!


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## Toddrickfl1 (Dec 5, 2019)

https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding.15137/


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## Farcryjj (Dec 5, 2019)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding.15137/


Thanks!!! This is a good one.


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## Farcryjj (Dec 5, 2019)

Why the older posts can't show the pictures anymore... what a pity.


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## Markw84 (Dec 5, 2019)

Farcryjj said:


> Hi, I'm trying to help a Canadian tortoise breeder who is willing to learn more newer information about raising baby tortoises. He is the only breeder in Canada that breeds Egyptian tortoise, but sadly, all his little babies are pyramiding. He raises them in open top enclosures with humid hides.
> I remember reading about lots of debate posts here about the cause of pyramiding before. I think the consensus is that Humidity is almost the only factor that impact the pyramiding in all species of tortoise. However, there are so many posts here that I can't find the good ones easily. I'm wondering if anyone have saved links to some of the good posts which came to the conclusion about pyramiding? Thanks!!!



Here is the post I did with a detailed explanation of how the pyramiding actually occurs and why it is only the drying of new keratin at the seams that causes it.
https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pyramiding-–-solving-the-mystery.164261/


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## Farcryjj (Dec 5, 2019)

Markw84 said:


> Here is the post I did with a detailed explanation of how the pyramiding actually occurs and why it is only the drying of new keratin at the seams that causes it.
> https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pyramiding-–-solving-the-mystery.164261/


Yes, that is another great one! Thanks Mark!!


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## Tom (Dec 5, 2019)

Funny that you bring this up. Egyptians are another one that everyone seems to think need to be kept super dry. I've got plans to get some from a breeder friend and run an experiment in spring to show that even they will benefit from some humidity.

Pyramiding is _caused_ by growth in conditions that are too dry. Contributing factors can be lack of humidity, lack of hydration, lack of soaking, and using the wrong bulb, or too strong of a basking bulb. Even in high humidity, the wrong bulbs will still cause pyramiding.


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## Farcryjj (Dec 5, 2019)

Tom said:


> Funny that you bring this up. Egyptians are another one that everyone seems to think need to be kept super dry. I've got plans to get some from a breeder friend and run an experiment in spring to show that even they will benefit from some humidity.
> 
> Pyramiding is _caused_ by growth in conditions that are too dry. Contributing factors can be lack of humidity, lack of hydration, lack of soaking, and using the wrong bulb, or too strong of a basking bulb. Even in high humidity, the wrong bulbs will still cause pyramiding.


Thanks Tom for replying! Because of the weather in Canada, I don't think keeping any tortoise bigger than a Hermann is feasible. Egyptians could have been perfect, but they're nowhere to be found in Canada except from this breeder. I would've loved loved loved to buy an Egyptian baby from you, but unless I resort to smuggling, it's impossible for Canadian civilians to import tortoise from US.  But since they're so tiny, maybe...


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## Tom (Dec 5, 2019)

Farcryjj said:


> Thanks Tom for replying! Because of the weather in Canada, I don't think keeping any tortoise bigger than a Hermann is feasible. Egyptians could have been perfect, but they're nowhere to be found in Canada except from this breeder. I would've loved loved loved to buy an Egyptian baby from you, but unless I resort to smuggling, it's impossible for Canadian civilians to import tortoise from US.  But since they're so tiny, maybe...


I understand. I won't be breeding them. I'm just going to get a few from my friend and raise them for a while to show that they also benefit from the higher humidity closed chamber routine, and that it can be done, and that they can be grown smooth, and that humidity will not kill them.

I couldn't agree more with you about which species are best suited to your climate. Any tortoise can be kept anywhere in the world with enough time, money, and effort, but some species are more practical than others. For example, it is really hot and dry here where I live in Summer, and redfoots, Manouria, elongata, and aldabras, just don't do well in this climate. So I don't keep those, even though I really like them.

I wonder how hard it would be to get Egyptians into Canada... Doesn't seem like it would be all that hard with the right paperwork and some money for permits. I'm going to ask my International broker about this.


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## Farcryjj (Dec 5, 2019)

Tom said:


> I understand. I won't be breeding them. I'm just going to get a few from my friend and raise them for a while to show that they also benefit from the higher humidity closed chamber routine, and that it can be done, and that they can be grown smooth, and that humidity will not kill them.
> 
> I couldn't agree more with you about which species are best suited to your climate. Any tortoise can be kept anywhere in the world with enough time, money, and effort, but some species are more practical than others. For example, it is really hot and dry here where I live in Summer, and redfoots, Manouria, elongata, and aldabras, just don't do well in this climate. So I don't keep those, even though I really like them.
> 
> I wonder how hard it would be to get Egyptians into Canada... Doesn't seem like it would be all that hard with the right paperwork and some money for permits. I'm going to ask my International broker about this.



If it can be done, that would be amazing. Because this breeder is selling the babies at $2,500 each. I understand the rarity in Canada, but the price is still too steep for a baby that is already pyramiding. 
From what I know, Canada doesn't allow tortoise to be imported for commercial use, only if it is your pet from where you are from, or to be imported for zoos and researches. Found this post here: https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-import-a-tort-in-to-canada.163250/


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## Tom (Dec 5, 2019)

Farcryjj said:


> If it can be done, that would be amazing. Because this breeder is selling the babies at $2,500 each. I understand the rarity in Canada, but the price is still too steep for a baby that is already pyramiding.
> From what I know, Canada doesn't allow tortoise to be imported for commercial use, only if it is your pet from where you are from, or to be imported for zoos and researches. Found this post here: https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-import-a-tort-in-to-canada.163250/


I read the requirements on that link and saw the list of all the forms and it reminded me of a movie scene from some dystopian future where people are run around in circles from department to department with never ending forms and bureaucracy. What a load of crap all that stuff is!


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