# Substrates



## Kadaan (Sep 4, 2009)

One of the things I've been getting the most varied advice on is what substrate to use for my future Greek hatchling.

It seems the common recommendations are:
- Coco fiber, not bark/husk (with 0-50% play sand mixed in for weight/traction)
- Aspen
- Organic mulches (orchid bark, cypress, fir)
- Organic topsoil (with 0-50% play sand mix)
- Mosses (mainly for a humid hide, not an entire enclosure)

Less common ones are:
- Indoor/outdoor carpet (not plush, something like berber)
- Recycled/shredded newspaper
- Hay
- Hemp

And the 'no-no' ones:
- Pine, Cedar (toxic)
- Sand (impaction*)
- Small pebbles/gravel (impaction*)
- Walnut shells (impaction*)
- Food Pellets, such as rabbit food/alfalfa (not dangerous, but definitely not healthy)

* I'm not 100% sure what impaction is, I'm assuming it's getting non-digestible items stuck in the tort's stomach/intestines?


Right now I have a 2/3 coco fiber 1/3 play sand mix in the entire enclosure, and when I was describing my setup to the breeder I'm getting my hatchling from he said:

"I don't ever recommend people use any kind of substrate with tortoises that can be ingested, like coco fiber or sand. It sticks to their food, gets in their eyes, it's dusty and generally is impossible to keep clean and hygenic."

He *highly* recommends carpet, and right now I'm unsure how to proceed. On one hand I'm going by advice from several people here who are all for coco fiber/play sand, but on the other hand the breeder who I'm getting the tort from highly discourages using that. I'd feel like a huge jerk getting the tort from him and saying 'thanks for the advice, but I'm using coco fiber/sand even though you said not to.'


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## Yvonne G (Sep 4, 2009)

Since this subject is in the "debatable topics" section, I'll give my opinion on the ones that I know about.

I had used oat hay pellets as a substrate for YEARS and YEARS. Oat hay pellets look like rabbit pellets except they are made out of oat hay and not alfalfa. I never noticed problem with any of my babies or tortoises that were kept on this substrate, and this is probably because I didn't keep any of the animals on a substrate for longer than a winter (they all spend the warm months outside). However, my four year old leopard tortoise spent his first two years on oat hay pellets. There's absolutely nothing wrong with his legs from having to walk on pellets, but I now know that the reason he is so pyramided is because he was raised in a very dry habitat.

When I started hearing about the coconut coir on the listservs that I belonged to, I tried that. The first thing I noticed was the long strings in the coir. I really didn't like the strings. I could picture a baby swallowing a string and having it wrap around an intestine. Also, I'm totally against using sand for a substrate, and even though it was mixed with coir, it just rubbed me wrong to have sand around the babies' food. I didn't even give it a week. I tossed the coir/sand after only a couple days.

Ever since I've kept turtles and tortoises, my substrate of choice for the types of turtles and tortoises that require a moist substrate was orchid bark. Around the same time that I heard about the coir, I was hearing that we needed to provide a semi-moist habitat for ALL tortoises, not just the Asians and Yellowfoots and box turtles. So I thought, why not? I switched all my winter habitats over to orchid bark. This product has to be pure because orchids are pretty temperamental. They won't do well if there's pesticides, additives or chemicals. Also, you can keep it moist and it doesn't encourage gnats and it doesn't smell sour. It comes in three sizes: fine, medium and large. I buy the fine. The pieces are too large for it to be eaten, but even if they did happen to eat a piece, it doesn't cause impaction. Orchid bark is actually from fir trees. Contrary to what you may have heard, fir is an ok substrate for tortoises. It is not one of the oily, pungent trees, and is not harmful.

I also like to use cypress mulch, but its hard to find large bags of it here on the west coast. I can only find it at pet stores in quart-sized bags and they're about $10 a bag. Pretty expensive for my large useage. When I first mentioned cypress mulch on one of the YAHOO groups that I belong to, I heard all about how it was destroying the environment. The trees were being cut down and soon would be all gone, yada, yada. I don't know how true this is, but I'm sure it will eventually be regulated if it is true. 

I'm too lazy to keep a humid hide humid, so I don't use aspen. If I were going to use aspen, I would use my old oat hay pellets instead. I really liked them. But its too much trouble trying to keep the hide moist.

Walnut husks are usually from the black walnut. These are very toxic. I've never used them. Likewise corn cob bedding. Never tried that because I learned long ago I shouldn't use it on the floor of my aviary because of impaction. Hay is too much trouble. 

One guy that always gives me baby desert tortoises every September, keeps his babies on recycled newspaper pellets. He swears by them. Personally, I don't like it. You have the humid hide thing again...and like I said...I'm lazy.

When I first go into turtles and tortoises I had a room mate; a gal who worked with me. She also got into tortoises. She kept all her tortoises on indoor/outdoor carpet and in aquariums. She had several sheets of carpet cut to size to fit all the aquariums, and when one got dirty, she would replace it with a new one and wash the old one. This looked nice and was easy to keep clean. But there you go again with the humid hide thing.

I would never use top soil or garden dirt because of the impaction issue. You just can't keep the food clean. They walk all over it, dragging the dirt or sand all through the food. I've never noticed any orchid bark on the babies' food. It stays put. My all time favorite!!

Yvonne 

Yvonne


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## tortoisenerd (Sep 4, 2009)

I see more cons with the carpet than risks with the coconut fiber and sand substrate. Don't know of any torts that have become impacted with it, only straight sand, especially calci-sand. That's great you are doing your research. Never take one person's view as fact! Yes it can get stuck to their food (why you use a large slate tile). If they eat it by the mouthful you should of course take it out and try something else (like larger particles such as with the Cyprus Mulch). I don't think it's dusty at all when you keep it moist. If you pick up the poops and dump all of it out every few months to get the pees (rare as most pee in the water), I've never heard of issues with it. If it smells, then change it.

On the other hand, the carpet in no way simulates their natural environment. What about using plain old dirt? I don't think anyone can argue with that one! It is dry, dehydrating, they can't dig/burrow, and sometimes they will chew the edges. Nails can get stuck in it too. I would like to see the adult torts of this breeder. Pictures speak 1,000 words! That said, Greeks aren't as prone to pyramiding. You have no obligation to tell him what you plan to use. It's your tort. Best wishes.


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## Crazy1 (Sep 4, 2009)

OK here is my take on substrates. I have Greek tortoises. 
These are the substrates IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve tried and the pros and cons of them. 

Clean yard dirt (no pesticides or chemicals):* pros*; if eaten can give beneficial bacteria to hatchlings. 
*con;* if eaten enough could cause impaction. 

Shredded aspen, chipped aspen, hemp: *pros*; easy to see messes and dried food. 
*Cons;* extremely dry environment.

Country critter: *Pros*; biodegradable, can be placed in garden to help fertilize. Will not cause impaction if eaten. 
*Con:* hard for hatchlings to walk on. Crumbles or practically disintegrates when wet. Keeps habitat extremely dry.

Turtle carpet: *Pros*; easy to see messes, washes in washing machine 
*con;* keeps habitat extremely dry babies nails sometimes get stuck on the fibers.

Coconut coir, coconut coir and sand: *Pros*; inexpensive easy to see messes. 
*Cons*: dusty if dry, or where dry, the coconut coir IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve gotten does not have long strings in it. But sticks to tort and food. 

Cypress mulch: *Pros*; larger chunks so hatchlings canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t eat it. Can be kept damp so humidity can be kept up. Does not stick to food or tortoise, is not dusty. 
*Con*; can bring nats, however you can rid these by baking substrate in the oven in turkey bags. But can 
easily re-infest if flying nats are not eradicated.

For hatchlings and juveniles:
Cypress allows me to keep the under layers of the enclosure dampened for a higher humidity while allowing the top layer to dry out under the lamps. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve tried the humid hides. But I have several hatchlings and juveniles and it takes a lot of time and work to keep those hides humid. I tried the sponge and it really did not keep the hide as humid as it should have been. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve tried using sphagnum moss dampened but my hatchlings donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t like to use it. During the winter all my Greeks are in one room. I use 2 humidifiers to help keep the humidity up. 

My adult Greeks are on aspen as they do not require the same humidity as the hatchlings or juveniles. I live in an old lath and plaster home and it literally will suck the humidity out of the air. So between the cypress and the humidifiers I can control the humidity for all my torts. 

I have not yet used Orchid bark yet. Though I may try this next. I know fir is a type of pine which can give off toxic gasses when heated. However the fir in the orchid bark has been heat treated so that it does not give off oils or toxic fumes if heated, which makes it ok for torts. I am currently using cypress mulch and I do like it. But like Yvonne said, it is hard to get in any quantity. Cypress tree logging I do not really worry about as they are a fast growing tree and groves are planted specifically to be logged by companies that I have read about. I am sure there are others that are against using cypress because of the logging. 

This is my personal opinion so IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll say it now there is no use in a commenting on my views of cypress logging, as I do not plan to debate that.

One suggestion I have is that you get a really good humidity gauge. I got mine from www.eggcarton.com they are reasonable in price and pretty accurate. 

Sorry to disagree Kate;
Greek hatchlings up to the age of at least 2 have a tendency to pyramid especially if conditions are not right, including humidity, diet, exercise and hydration.


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## Madkins007 (Sep 6, 2009)

I have Red-foots, but...

Tried carpet, like it in some ways, but dang it can get nasty quick- even with washing and rotation.

Tried a variety of soil organic materials, and sand mixes, and they are generally messy. 

Tried a piece of rigid textured plastic. Loved the easy cleaning, but every feces smeared everywhere.

Tried long-fibered sphagnum moss, but cannot keep it properly damp in my region.

I agree with Yvonne on Orchid Bark, but have not tried it yet. When I finish the new 8'x4' winter habitat in a few weeks, I am going to try a 'bioactive substrate'- a layer of coarse material (to culture good bacteria and create a water reservoir), a thicker layer of a soil mix (organic mulch, sand, mosses, etc.) for digging, humidity control, soil organisms, etc., and a top layer of leaves and bark mulch to provide a dry surface. This is based on some interesting articles, and I'll post how it goes.

In the meantime, another good idea I have seen is a layered approach- a bottom layer that can get really wet, and an upper layer that can 'wick' the moisture to the habitat- humidifying it from the bottom up. Some crunched lava rock with most of the barks and mosses on top should work nicely. Pour water in and let it wick/evaporate up and the rocks will keep the bark stuff from rotting away. I've tried this on a small scale and it works nicely.


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## Madortoise (Sep 7, 2009)

Aren't most carpet treated with toxic chemicals like fire-retardant? 
Also, I have a berber carpet in my bedroom but it's really hard to clean when things get stuck in it. 
I would try to simulate the natural environment that Greek tortoise live in with natural material and vote against carpet myself.

http://living.amuchbetterway.com/toxic-carpet-dangerous-toxins-that-live/


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## Crazy1 (Sep 7, 2009)

Mado they have a turtle/tortoise carpet that I am talking of. It is not treated but as I listed and Madkin stated can be a bit of a problem. I like the natural idea but for a hatchling it can be difficult especally to keep up the humidity. That is why I like the Cypress mulch. I can pour a glass of water over it stir it up and the light dry out the top layer. But the under layers keep damp thus keeping the humidity up. I am skeptical with a small Greek hatchling use something like lava rock which is really course. My greeks hatchlings dig down to the bottom of their enclosures and I would not want something like that for them to dig into. My hatchling habitats have about 2-3 inches of substrate so that I can find them if need be.


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