# Pyramiding



## nrfitchett4 (Jan 31, 2009)

So what do y'all think is the main cause?
too much protein
not enough UVB
not enough water

I think after reading what I can find, that Humidity is number 1.
UVB would be next I think.
Just because I've seen pics of turtles basking under UVB that still pyramid.


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## TKCARDANDCOIN (Jan 31, 2009)

For me it is protien,uvb and then humidity.i have had my sulcata for almost 5 years and raised her from a hatchling.I kept her under uvb or sun,little protien and no humidity other than a weekly soak and have had great results.She has very little pyramiding if any at all. All of this goes along with a varied diet of greens and hay and a fresh bowl of water.


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## tortoisenerd (Jan 31, 2009)

I would agree that from looking at the recent research (there was a study of moist paper towels vs. dry paper towels and the results speak for themselves), humidity seems to be a primary concern. I know that the other factors have been proven as well, so we should strive to reduce all factors that can cause pyramiding in torts.


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## terryo (Jan 31, 2009)

I know many keepers that have no UVB for their Redfoots and they are very smooth. They seem to think it is due to high humidity. I only have 1 tortoise and so far he is smooth, having a very humid hide and vey little UVB filtered through a screen.


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## TKCARDANDCOIN (Jan 31, 2009)

I guess this is debateable.I have had my sulcata(flipper) for almost 5 years.She was the size of a half dollar when i got her and today she is 23 pounds and 15 inches with very little pyramiding.I have raised her under 5.0 uvb in the winter and outside in natural sunlight during summer.Fresh greens and hay with calcium supp. twice a week and reptolife vitamin once a week along with weekly soaks.Fresh water every day with a dry substrate and i have had no problems.I have also raised two russian torts the same way with no problems.These are my results and humidity in my enclosures does not seem to be a factor for my torts.thanks,tom.


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## -EJ (Feb 1, 2009)

It's kind of pointless to say that it is too much protein when you fail to mention exactly what is too much protein. 

I along with many keepers have raised wonderful looking tortoises without UVB. The UVB bulbs that are currently on the market have only been readily available for the last 10 or so years. Before that only the most serious collector knew where to find them let alone use them for tortoises.

I have yet to find any evidence... let alone proof... that protein causes pyramiding or is a major contributing factor. It has to be a factor only because it is a nutritional component... but there is no way it is a primary factor.





TKCARDANDCOIN said:


> For me it is protien,uvb and then humidity.i have had my sulcata for almost 5 years and raised her from a hatchling.I kept her under uvb or sun,little protien and no humidity other than a weekly soak and have had great results.She has very little pyramiding if any at all. All of this goes along with a varied diet of greens and hay and a fresh bowl of water.


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## Millerlite (Feb 1, 2009)

is there anyway it can be part genetics? Maybe some pyramid easier then others...


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## -EJ (Feb 1, 2009)

I've always believed that any physiological trait is going to have a genetic influence. I don't think it is as important as heat and hydration.



Millerlite said:


> is there anyway it can be part genetics? Maybe some pyramid easier then others...


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## Millerlite (Feb 1, 2009)

so you do think some can pyramid easier then others due to genetics, but it can also be controlled by hydration and Heat. I think the same thing. I always read about people and smooth shells with so many different ways of caring, It seems like some can go through the worst care and not pyramid at all, while some can go through great care and still pyramid.


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## TKCARDANDCOIN (Feb 1, 2009)

So what are you saying EJ, that you starve your tortoise from uvb to make a point.Thats like you never being exposed to natural sunlight!you would go crazy not to mention develop rickets.That is absurd that you raise torts without any benificial uvb.What kind of tortoise did you let suffer with no uvb.I'm sorry but that goes against everything I know.


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## Millerlite (Feb 1, 2009)

There are a few people that dont have UVB bulbs. They keep them indoors without them, just regular lights ( not just dark) and use supplement like d3 which reptiles produce using the UVB. The people i know that dont use UVB put there tortoises outside durning warm months, they just never use UVB bulbs, and it works for them.


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## -EJ (Feb 1, 2009)

You can't fault me for your ignorance...



TKCARDANDCOIN said:


> So what are you saying EJ, that you starve your tortoise from uvb to make a point.Thats like you never being exposed to natural sunlight!you would go crazy not to mention develop rickets.That is absurd that you raise torts without any benificial uvb.What kind of tortoise did you let suffer with no uvb.I'm sorry but that goes against everything I know.


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## Meg90 (Feb 1, 2009)

Ok, really? 

First of all, why is everyone so pissy (for lack of a better word) here lately? I am getting tired of it. Every thread turns into a bickering match.

Are we adults? Or kids on myspace? I think that the level of maturity needs to go back up a few notches.

Secondly, using the "ten years ago" excuse is not feasible.

Ten years ago, they said that tortoises got all the water they needed from their food, and that the only reason HEALTHY tortoises urinated was because they had EXCESS water in them.

Now we know that they do it, because they control their own humidity to a point, through keeping their burrows and sleeping spots moist with urine.

Why would you deprive your tortoises of UVB? Even people feel better after being in natural sun. The rickets is a good example.

And just because you CAN doesn't mean that you should.

I can raise a toddler on hotdogs and koolaid, but does that mean that I should?


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## Millerlite (Feb 1, 2009)

I thought this was about Pyramiding.. Not Uvb... People dont use UVB lights, others do... lets try and keep on Pyramiding.


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## Crazy1 (Feb 1, 2009)

OK, this was put in the Debatable Topic area, but lets keep the focus on Pyramiding as Millerlite pointed out. Lets debate the pros and cons but not point fingers or focus on any one individual. Lets keep it clean guys ok.


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## -EJ (Feb 2, 2009)

I don't see anyone getting 'pissy'? I do see some people get upset when someone disagrees with them. 

The language is quite aggressive when a person says another is depriving an animal of UVB. This implies that UVB is necessary... it obviously is not. UVB probably has some benefits... it's definately not a necessity. Some folks believe the lack of UVB is a major factor in the cause of pyramiding... I'm not one of those people. I used to be a strong advocate of the UVB bulbs (hence the 10 year reference which is an observation). Ironicly... I met with resistance on that topic back then... now it is a necessity?... interesting.

It's not only a question of can... it's a matter of being able to do so with better results... Hatchlings that firm up quicker... and with a form that many keepers stride for. 

In this hobby change and acceptance comes slowly because of the dogma that holds change back. There's a certain personality among tortoise keepers and that is they don't like to be wrong or think they are doing something not right... so everyone else must be wrong.

I have no problem being wrong. I could very well be wrong in my opinion... but I don't think so.

My advice to the new keeper... do your research... make your own decision. In the case of conflicting information... research the information more indepth and how the conflict is resolved to the point of at least making a decision your comfortable with.




Meg90 said:


> Ok, really?
> 
> First of all, why is everyone so pissy (for lack of a better word) here lately? I am getting tired of it. Every thread turns into a bickering match.
> 
> ...


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## TKCARDANDCOIN (Feb 2, 2009)

Thank you Meg90!!!I agree with You 100 percent! Thanks for your input,tom.


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## terryo (Feb 2, 2009)

Very well said, Ed.


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## Madkins007 (Feb 2, 2009)

In the best actual studies I have seen, both Sulcata and Red-foot pyramid when humidity is low and are smooth when it is high- regardless of the diet and other factors measured.

Now- I DO think that we will discover that there are different kinds of pyramiding with different causes- pyramids on a hard, well-shaped shell compared to those on a deformed, sunken shell, for example. The first being humidity/hydration with the other being poor diet, etc.

I ALSO think some species are more susceptible than others- Testudos seem to have fairly little trouble with this, and I would bet that most Sulcatas in the wild spend time in much more humid microclimates than we generally offer in captivity.

The critical time seems to be the fist few months to the first year. After that it seem like the job is to just maintain that internal hydration level.

TKCard describes keeping torts in naturalistic habitats with soaks. He does not say and may not know what the background and microhabitat humidities are in his pen. If he documented a low overall humidity, then I would see why he discounts it so readily.

As for me... I think the causes of pyramiding in tortoises are-
#1- Chronic dehydration, followed distantly by,
#2- Major dietary problems with calcium, phosphorous, vitamin D, and such- with protein only playing a very small roll.

I find no real evidence that UVB is a major part of the pyramiding issue. While vitamin D plays a major role in growth, the calcium cycle and skeletal development, too little vitamin D contributes to deformed bones and swayback- but not pyramids.

If anyone has a studies to the contrary, I would love to see them!

Articles citing humidity as a cause, and backed up by experiments:
- Fife, Richard. Ã¢â‚¬Å“Pyramiding in TortoisesÃ¢â‚¬Â Reptiles Magazine (Archived at http://www.animalnetwork.com/reptiles/detail.aspx?aid=20864&cid=596&search=) 
- http://www.petsparade.co.uk/articles/?a=78 (A synopsis of a longer article.)

So, should we get another thread going about UVB? Obviously it is another hot topic!


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## nrfitchett4 (Feb 2, 2009)

Millerlite said:


> is there anyway it can be part genetics? Maybe some pyramid easier then others...



I wouldn't think so because they say you don't see it in the wild.


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## KQ6AR (Feb 3, 2009)

Some types of tortoises are allowed high protein diets, some are better off with almost no protein in their diet.

The same can be said about humidity. Its different for different breeds.

That said, you really can't make a blanket statement about what might cause pyramiding in one species would be the same for another. 

I do believe some species are more prone to pyramid than others.


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## Kristina (Feb 3, 2009)

Madkins007 said:


> Now- I DO think that we will discover that there are different kinds of pyramiding with different causes- pyramids on a hard, well-shaped shell compared to those on a deformed, sunken shell, for example. The first being humidity/hydration with the other being poor diet, etc.



This is where I feel that "pyramiding" VS deformity/MBD comes in... Pyramiding, IMO, is caused mainly by a lack of humidity. Raised scutes on a sunken shell are deformities caused by a lack of calcuim in the diet brought on by too high oxalate content in the diet, improper Ca: P ratio, and/or too high protein content. The lack of calcium causes MBD, and the "sunken" appearance between the scutes.

Kristina


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## -EJ (Feb 3, 2009)

At first glance I thought you were on the right track...

Pyramiding is natural... does not occur often... and... is simple.

I comes down to the scutes... simple as that.



kyryah said:


> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> > Now- I DO think that we will discover that there are different kinds of pyramiding with different causes- pyramids on a hard, well-shaped shell compared to those on a deformed, sunken shell, for example. The first being humidity/hydration with the other being poor diet, etc.
> ...


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## Kristina (Feb 3, 2009)

Just to clarify, you said at first glance... On what points do you disagree?

I personally know how you feel about the protein issue, but would like to hear it again, for others sake 

Kristina


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## -EJ (Feb 3, 2009)

only one point... I don't think protein is a major factor in pyramiding.



kyryah said:


> Just to clarify, you said at first glance... On what points do you disagree?
> 
> I personally know how you feel about the protein issue, but would like to hear it again, for others sake
> 
> Kristina


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## Kristina (Feb 3, 2009)

I am, to a point, open to that argument, for the simple fact that no-one has directly identified the exact percentage of protein that is harmful VS that which is acceptable.

I try to base my observations on diet on what is available to tortoises in their natural habitat. As I have said before, it is plain and simpe IMPOSSIBLE to exactly replicate conditions in the wild. I do know, however, that most of the food items available to arid tortoises in the wild are greatly deviod of nutrients, the exception being calcium.

I honestly feel that many people over-supplement. The nutrient quality of food items available for say, Sulcata and Leopard tortoises, is logically very low for most of the year. This may spike during certain periods, causing a variable, but can be counted on for the most part in my experience/research.

Nutrient qualities of replacement food items vary not only in respect to the areas/soil quality that they are grown in, but also in respect to the genetic strain that they originate from. It is something IMHO that needs to be taken into account.

Kristina


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## -EJ (Feb 3, 2009)

you do key onto one point... what is 'too much' protein.

How is this determined? What is the general number of 'too much' protein? How is this number derived?

Maybe an 'expert' can answer this.



kyryah said:


> I am, to a point, open to that argument, for the simple fact that no-one has directly identified the exact percentage of protein that is harmful VS that which is acceptable.
> 
> I try to base my observations on diet on what is available to tortoises in their natural habitat. As I have said before, it is plain and simpe IMPOSSIBLE to exactly replicate conditions in the wild. I do know, however, that most of the food items available to arid tortoises in the wild are greatly deviod of nutrients, the exception being calcium.
> 
> ...


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## Kristina (Feb 3, 2009)

Who, however, is the ultimate expert??? I don't know him/her, and I do not think that there is one.

When it comes down to it, I think that tortoise care is based on approximating capitve conditions as close as possible to natural conditions, with, sadly, a bit of trial and error thrown in. There is no more a correct manual for tortiose care than there is for raising human children. They simply do not come with product tags.

I feel that what works, for now, works. I have my methods, and others have theirs. That does not stop me from sharing my experiences, but there may be a more correct method out there. If so, I will find it, in time, because I never allow my advancement to stop.

Kristina


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## nrfitchett4 (Feb 3, 2009)

-EJ said:


> you do key onto one point... what is 'too much' protein.
> 
> How is this determined? What is the general number of 'too much' protein? How is this number derived?
> 
> ...



I guess if your tort is crapping out lots of urates, then maybe too much protein?


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## Madkins007 (Feb 18, 2009)

Sigh. Wouldn't it be wonderful if SOMEONE could give us a decent formula for daily or weekly 'doses' of calcium, phosphorous, protein, fat, fiber, vitamins A, Bs, C, D2, D3, and E, iron, oxalic acid, etc.?

I found a formula for reptile daily calorie needs (body wt. in kilograms to the 0.75 power, times 32 for the 'base' number. Increase or decrease by 25% based on activity like illness, growth, eggs, etc.), ratios of calcium (Ca: P of 2 to 4:1 ), and ratios of fat-soluble vitamins (A: D:E of 100:10:1)- but not any decently 'firm' numbers for the other stuff.


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## Yvonne G (Feb 19, 2009)

nrfitchett4 said:


> I guess if your tort is crapping out lots of urates, then maybe too much protein?



I don't think protein has anything to do with urates. Urates develop because the tortoise holds his urine.

Yvonne


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## egyptiandan (Feb 19, 2009)

I'm afraid urates have quite a bit to do with protein Yvonne. 

Nucleic acids (dietary protein) in the diet are degraded by nucleases to nucleotides. These nucleotides undergo further enzymatic hydrolysis to yield free purine and pyrimidine bases. Additional purine and pyrimidine bases are synthesized in the liver from amino acids. If these free bases are not reused by the body, they are further degraded and ultimately excreted. The pyrimidines are catabolized to the end products CO2 and NH3.
The end product of purine degradation is uric acid in tortoises.

From Reptile Medicine and Surgery by Douglas Mader

Danny


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## Maggie Cummings (Feb 19, 2009)

egyptiandan said:


> I'm afraid urates have quite a bit to do with protein Yvonne.
> 
> Nucleic acids (dietary protein) in the diet are degraded by nucleases to nucleotides. These nucleotides undergo further enzymatic hydrolysis to yield free purine and pyrimidine bases. Additional purine and pyrimidine bases are synthesized in the liver from amino acids. If these free bases are not reused by the body, they are further degraded and ultimately excreted. The pyrimidines are catabolized to the end products CO2 and NH3.
> The end product of purine degradation is uric acid in tortoises.
> ...



Holy crap!!! Are you speaking in American???


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## Yvonne G (Feb 19, 2009)

egyptiandan said:


> I'm afraid urates have quite a bit to do with protein Yvonne.
> 
> Danny



(looking for a smilie face with its tongue sticking out going "Bra-a-a-ack"!!)

Yvonne


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## -EJ (Feb 19, 2009)

What Danny was trying to say that nitrogenous waste is the main byproduct of protein metabolism. 





egyptiandan said:


> I'm afraid urates have quite a bit to do with protein Yvonne.
> 
> Nucleic acids (dietary protein) in the diet are degraded by nucleases to nucleotides. These nucleotides undergo further enzymatic hydrolysis to yield free purine and pyrimidine bases. Additional purine and pyrimidine bases are synthesized in the liver from amino acids. If these free bases are not reused by the body, they are further degraded and ultimately excreted. The pyrimidines are catabolized to the end products CO2 and NH3.
> The end product of purine degradation is uric acid in tortoises.
> ...


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Feb 19, 2009)

so how come my sulcatas will only have the white goo (urates) when I toss them a few cantalopes . I always thought it was becasue of the extra water. 


*with out causing a bunch of side debate they only get cantalopes if there are to many for the foots to eat and theu have to be eatin in a day or two


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## -EJ (Feb 19, 2009)

check out the oxalic acid content of cantalope. Again, I'm sure there are other sources of insoluable salts.



Redfootedboxturtles said:


> so how come my sulcatas will only have the white goo (urates) when I toss them a few cantalopes . I always thought it was becasue of the extra water.
> 
> 
> *with out causing a bunch of side debate they only get cantalopes if there are to many for the foots to eat and theu have to be eatin in a day or two


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## nrfitchett4 (Feb 19, 2009)

I haven't seen any urates yet in shelly, but with a diet of greens and spring mix, I wouldn't expect it. So far she has been resistant to the mazuri. I soak 2 pellets everyday, but so far, no dice.


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## Stephanie Logan (Aug 22, 2009)

http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/Gchilensiscare.htm
This link is to an article that posits the Chaco species of tortoise is "very prone" to pyramiding. The pictures actually look like my Taco. So that would support the genetic predisposition theory. Seems like the most important result of this thread is all of the advice on ways to mitigate or prevent pyramiding. Personally, I plan to try them all, so that what little shell growth Taco has left will be healthy growth.


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## Madortoise (Aug 22, 2009)

How about feeding too much and torts growing too quickly?


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## dmmj (Aug 22, 2009)

feeding to much and growing to quickly was a common thought years ago but I posted this info in another thread. I recently read a report from a vet study on sulc. that humidity was the major factor in pyramiding. I am not telling anyone how to raise theirs or to change their behaviour just what I read, I found it very informative, and made quite a few good points. Also so far (aug 22) I have seen no study that says pyramiding is genetic, I am not saying that it is not, just saying I have seen no such reports. Anyways have a nice day.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 23, 2009)

Stephanie Logan said:


> http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/Gchilensiscare.htm
> Personally, I plan to try them all, so that what little shell growth Taco has left will be healthy growth.



Hi Stephanie: I'm pretty sure that the Chaco tortoise grows as big as our California desert tortoise. So your Taco has quite a bit more growing to do. So just increase the moisture in her habitat and try to get her outside as much as possible. The new growth should smooth out, but her pyramiding that she already has, won't go away.

Yvonne


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## Redfoot NERD (Aug 23, 2009)

I have an idea..






Let's 1st try to keep the exceptions and extremes out of the picture. 
*ALL THINGS IN MODERATION*
Let's consider that we don't feed "Herbivors" fruit and 'animal' protein.. and we don't feed "Omnivors" high silica grass exclusively.. O.K.?

Are we on the same page everybody? In other words.. we're feeding these different species what's "best" for them.

Plant eaters "need" more UVB-D3 [ which is why they bask ] because of the "different/lower" protein level in plants compared to animal protein eaters [ which 'don't' bask ] which basically get their D3 from their diet.

Based on observations from various long-term private breeders [ of 'all' species ] and Zoos.. many you know and have written articles on the subject of pyramiding. Most have come to the conclusion that "ALL" species require and seek out a "humid-hide" during the most crital time of their growth.. the first year. I'm sure this just thrills all of you.

I [ for what it's worth ] have also observed that "over-feeding" the 'right' food will cause a growth-gap between the scutes. Everything else being "in order". The scutes are not raised.. just gaps between.

Again I don't claim to be an expert in anything. I have worked with redfoots the most and longest. 

I do agree.. in part.. with all of you - as long as we don't go off on "extreme and exception" trips we can learn from each other!

Terry K


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## Laura (Aug 23, 2009)

purine... p-urine.. i that why we call urine pee??!!!
i would think species has a lot to do withwhat causes it in different animals. There are several causes. one being Captivity! we humans cant duplicate and have no idea the real ideal everything for our captives. 
Do your homework, listen, and do what works for you and is best for your torts.


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## Madkins007 (Aug 23, 2009)

Laura said:


> purine... p-urine.. i that why we call urine pee??!!!
> i would think species has a lot to do withwhat causes it in different animals. There are several causes. one being Captivity! we humans cant duplicate and have no idea the real ideal everything for our captives.
> Do your homework, listen, and do what works for you and is best for your torts.



Good points, but also remember that in actual studies with both Sucata and Red-foots, humidity has been demonstrated as being more important than any other single cause (the Sulcata study was trying to show that protein was the main issue, and it wasn't).

When you are doing homework on this topic, you'll get a lot of old, theoretical, and wrong info about pyramiding being because of this and that... but it would be smart to pay attention to the hard evidence that humidity, especially when the tortoise is young, is a major factor.


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## Redfoot NERD (Aug 23, 2009)

Wasted my time and fingers typing again! Thanks Mark.. you got it!!!

Would someone explain to me what Laura was saying please?

NERD


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## -EJ (Aug 26, 2009)

This is not always true... many of those who take an opposing point of view are either ridiculed... or... banned so you never here about other ideas unless you happen onto a list such as this. While this is a good list those that get more traffic are usually quoted more even though they could be wrong.

Whats even worse is when a vet adopts the dogma without the proper research.




Madkins007 said:


> Good points, but also remember that in actual studies with both Sucata and Red-foots, humidity has been demonstrated as being more important than any other single cause (the Sulcata study was trying to show that protein was the main issue, and it wasn't).
> 
> When you are doing homework on this topic, you'll get a lot of old, theoretical, and wrong info about pyramiding being because of this and that... but it would be smart to pay attention to the hard evidence that humidity, especially when the tortoise is young, is a major factor.


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## Redfoot NERD (Aug 26, 2009)

Ed we can compare your redfoots raised in S. Cal. with mine raised in TN.. about as different in humidity as there is.. and see which is pyramided more or less?

No reason to consider the difference in what they have been fed. We know what yours have been fed.

*You want to go first Ed.. or do you want me to?*

Remember this is a friendly debate.. and your opportunity to "show and tell". No lip service.. thank you. We're just seeking facts.

I certainly agree Ed...... Vets [ Dr's ] are the only ones that can bury their mistakes!

Terry K


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## -EJ (Aug 26, 2009)

Well... there's a problem... I've been in NW Georgia for the last three years.

I've got a pair indoors... very dry... zero humidity... they are pyramided.

Those outdoors... fed exclusively mazuri... I think they are nice. 

Bottom line... diet is a less factor than environmental factor.




Redfoot NERD said:


> Ed we can compare your redfoots raised in S. Cal. with mine raised in TN.. about as different in humidity as there is.. and see which is pyramided more or less?
> 
> No reason to consider the difference in what they have been fed. We know what yours have been fed.
> 
> ...


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## Maggie Cummings (Aug 26, 2009)

Ed... do you have the pair inside strictly as an experiment/comparison? I have always felt that pyramiding was an environmental thing with humidity being the biggest part of that.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 26, 2009)

Glad to see you back, Ed. I've missed arguing with you! 

Yvonne


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## -EJ (Aug 26, 2009)

The pair of RFs I have are strictly on aspen bedding at 80F. It is an experiment. There is no doubt that it is environmental.



maggie3fan said:


> Ed... do you have the pair inside strictly as an experiment/comparison? I have always felt that pyramiding was an environmental thing with humidity being the biggest part of that.


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## gummybearpoop (Aug 27, 2009)

I live in Arizona and I have kept leopards, russians, redfoots, sri lankan stars, and radiateds. I work with aldabras and galapagos at a local zoo.

My redfoots started to pyramid a little when I had the humidity low. I used a humid hide, but it seemed like it was still too dry in Arizona. It took a lot of effort and time to get the right humidity at the place I was living at the time. In Arizona, it is very dry which is why I sold my redfoots to someone who lives in a more humid environment. 

I have also kept sri lankan stars, which are generally known for pyramiding regardless of humidity/diet. I used a humid hide but the sri lankan stars would still pyramid but at a lesser degree.

I think climate (temperature and humidity) have a lot to do with pyramiding. 

I don't really use UVB lights. I don't think hatchlings really need too much light because in nature, baby tortoises are hard to find because they are always hiding. I take my tortoises outside in the sun with shade to hide from the sun as well.

I am just stating what I do, what I believe, what I have observed, and what works for me in arizona.


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## -EJ (Aug 27, 2009)

If you pick up Holger Vetters book on SA tortoises you will see that the RFs come from a relatively dry climate throughout their range. The southern forms actually come from areas not too different than AZ except the temperatures do not get as high. On of the coauthors lives in the Paraguayan Chaco... where RFs occur.


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## Redfoot NERD (Aug 27, 2009)

Me too 'gummy' --- there have been almost drought conditions here in '07 and '08.. and my redfoots didn't really like it. Breeding/egg production down! Egg production down almost 40%.. *fertility DOWN* at least 60%... they quit breeding! The condition of their carapaces' changed also!

Terry K



-EJ said:


> Well... there's a problem... I've been in NW Georgia for the last three years.
> 
> I've got a pair indoors... very dry... zero humidity... they are pyramided.
> 
> ...



The impact of the dry environment was already felt before you left S. Cal. and you know it Ed! The most important growth period is the first 2 years...

Terry


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## -EJ (Aug 27, 2009)

An important point to remember that I think has been mentioned is not the general climate as it is perceived because of the location but of the microclimate that the animal chooses.


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## Redfoot NERD (Aug 27, 2009)

Sure.. the "Chaco-valley" is the driest.......... hardly "thru-out their range"!

Something doesn't fit here.. who ya gonna believe?

What about 'North' of the Amazon river [ where "most" of our "PET" redfoots come from ]... or around the Bahia region of Brazil [ *the most humid area in the CONTINENT* where our "PET" cherryheads come from ]

http://www.wunderground.com/global/Region/SA/2xHumidity.html

Terry K



-EJ said:


> An important point to remember that I think has been mentioned is not the general climate as it is perceived because of the location but of the microclimate that the animal chooses.



And they either choose or create a humid "hide".. ask Richard Fife about that one.. I did!

Terry K


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## gummybearpoop (Aug 27, 2009)

I read the south american tortoises book...great book suggested by you.

It is dry and really hot here, and we get over 100 days of 100 degree heat each year. There are people who breed redfoots here but it takes lots of time, effort, and money.

My redfoot tortoises' eyes eyes were always really watery. Their skin was light grey, which according to the south american tortoises book-means the tortoises are too dry. Unless I built some kind of greenhouse, I didn't want to subject my redfoots to 110 degree heat with 5-10% humidity. 

I provided humid hides and various micro climates...but at my old apartment I couldnt keep the relative humidity up. In Phoenix, we get 10% humidity if that. Monsoon season we get some humidity but it doesnt last long.

The south american tortoise book says some redfoots are from dry regions but regions that still have 40-60% humidity. Dry doesn't necessarily mean not humid....sometimes its lack of water. The redfoots in those dry regions tend to be found in abandoned burrows where the humidity is significantly higher

Radiated and spider tortoises are from very dry regions but the humidity is still 50-90% in the region of madagascar they are from.

Many dry region tortoises that burrow seem to be from dry regions where humidity is low (ie, desert tortoise, sulcatas, russians, etc.).

Radiateds, Spiders, Stars, Galapagos, Aldabras etc are from dry regions but the humidity is moderate and have no need to make burrows, but many of these occur on islands or near the coast where it is humid but do experience very dry seasons.

Gotta love tortoise adaptation.

I wish galapagos tortoises could make a huge burrow so they could make me a new place to live! ha



egyptiandan said:


> I'm afraid urates have quite a bit to do with protein Yvonne.
> 
> Nucleic acids (dietary protein) in the diet are degraded by nucleases to nucleotides. These nucleotides undergo further enzymatic hydrolysis to yield free purine and pyrimidine bases. Additional purine and pyrimidine bases are synthesized in the liver from amino acids. If these free bases are not reused by the body, they are further degraded and ultimately excreted. The pyrimidines are catabolized to the end products CO2 and NH3.
> The end product of purine degradation is uric acid in tortoises.
> ...




Crazy....haha. I want to tell my girlfriend this information so she would think I just got my PHD


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## -EJ (Aug 27, 2009)

I believe the people who have been in or who live in the areas that these animals inhabit. 

I don't know where the 'chaco-valley' is but the SA Chaco is basically prarie.

If you believe that north of the Amazon is all tropical rain forest... you haven't done the research you should.

Have you payed attention to the photos of the farms in the Bahia region?

You bring about another point. The RF is like the Sulcata in that it is a very adaptable animal... they don't NEED humidity in general. A humid hide is more than enough.

Every tortoise species will choose to seek out a humid hide given the opportunity... been saying this for well over 30 years. When first suggested I ran into the same polarized opposition.



Redfoot NERD said:


> Sure.. the "Chaco-valley" is the driest.......... hardly "thru-out their range"!
> 
> Something doesn't fit here.. who ya gonna believe?
> 
> ...





I got such a giggle out of this...

Danny... I'm an aircraft mechanic... can you put this into words or an idea that I might actually understand??????




egyptiandan said:


> I'm afraid urates have quite a bit to do with protein Yvonne.
> 
> Nucleic acids (dietary protein) in the diet are degraded by nucleases to nucleotides. These nucleotides undergo further enzymatic hydrolysis to yield free purine and pyrimidine bases. Additional purine and pyrimidine bases are synthesized in the liver from amino acids. If these free bases are not reused by the body, they are further degraded and ultimately excreted. The pyrimidines are catabolized to the end products CO2 and NH3.
> The end product of purine degradation is uric acid in tortoises.
> ...




Crazy....haha. I want to tell my girlfriend this information so she would think I just got my PHD
[/quote]


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## Madkins007 (Aug 27, 2009)

Speaking of the Vinkes, Red-foots, and the Chaco area of South America, there are two good articles you can download-
- Turtle and tortoise fauna of the central Chaco of Paraguay, (http://www.chelidae.com/pdf/vinke2001.pdf) and
- An Unusual Survival Strategy of the Red-Footed Tortoise Geochelone carbonaria in the Chaco Boreal of Paraguay (which I cannot seem to find online anymore)

According to Vinke, the Gran Chaco is a big area- 800,000 km2. Its climate is warm but drops to freezing in the winter, although frost is rare and it does not snow. Big temp fluctuations in the day, lots of rain in some months and almost none in others, and like the American prairies, it can deluge in one area while being bone dry just miles away. The area includes near desert, grasslands, palm savannahs, thorn forest, marshes, sub-tropical rain forest.

Here is a quote from the first article: 
"The Red-footed Tortoise mainly inhabits dry forests in Paraguay. It also lives in smaller embedded savannas. In all the preferred biotopes appear to be slightly damper and therefore a little greener than those of Geochelone chilensis, the forests are higher and less thorny. These tortoises like to be near temporary riverbeds or at places with a lower level where rainwater accumulates over a long period of time."

Like we've said in many places in many ways- microhabitats rule!


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## -EJ (Aug 27, 2009)

not to sound condescending... somebodys been doing their reading/research.



Madkins007 said:


> Speaking of the Vinkes, Red-foots, and the Chaco area of South America, there are two good articles you can download-
> - Turtle and tortoise fauna of the central Chaco of Paraguay, (http://www.chelidae.com/pdf/vinke2001.pdf) and
> - An Unusual Survival Strategy of the Red-Footed Tortoise Geochelone carbonaria in the Chaco Boreal of Paraguay (which I cannot seem to find online anymore)
> 
> ...


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## eminart (Nov 10, 2009)

So if humidity has now been determined to be one of, if not the main cause of pyramiding, then how much humidity do I need? I have an egyptian tortoise that supposedly thrives in very low humidity. He's now about 2 1/2 years old and there is a little bit of pyramiding, nothing excessive, but not totally smooth either. 

Dan, do you have an answer for this?


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## -EJ (Nov 11, 2009)

Egyptians come from an area called a 'fog desert'. It is close to the water and develops fog when the sun goes down. Egyptians also burry down at the base of plants when they are not active in addition to using animal burrows.



eminart said:


> So if humidity has now been determined to be one of, if not the main cause of pyramiding, then how much humidity do I need? I have an egyptian tortoise that supposedly thrives in very low humidity. He's now about 2 1/2 years old and there is a little bit of pyramiding, nothing excessive, but not totally smooth either.
> 
> Dan, do you have an answer for this?


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## Marifel12 (Nov 20, 2009)

Can I know how come does their sulcatas will only have the white goo (urates) when they toss them a few cantaloupes? I don't even have enough idea about this one. In that sense, I am interested to know more about it.


________________________


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## -EJ (Nov 21, 2009)

Check out the oxalic acid content of cantaloupes.



Marifel12 said:


> Can I know how come does their sulcatas will only have the white goo (urates) when they toss them a few cantaloupes? I don't even have enough idea about this one. In that sense, I am interested to know more about it.
> 
> 
> ________________________


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