# Is using coconut oil worth using ?



## Elnewman622 (May 31, 2015)

I've been using coconut oil to moisture my Russian Torts shell I don't use it a lot just when I think it is needed. I was wondering is it really worth it? It makes some what of of a differnce but not much. is it worth it in the long run? I don't want to be using it when I won't be seeing a chage.


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## dmmj (May 31, 2015)

Someone is running an experiment on it. I don't see any harm, or good by using it, to be honest. So it is a expense, I don't incur.


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## leigti (May 31, 2015)

There is an entire thread on it, the person in the thread keeps their tortoises indoors year-round and they are looking for a way to decrease the drying a fax of the hot lights. I used it about four or five times over the winter. I don't really know if it helped or not. But I think I will use it again next winter. I will not use it when my tortoise is out in the sun during the spring and summer. I don't want anything on the show between my tortoise and natural sunlight.
I guess he will just have to decide for yourself what you think about it. If you do try it use it sparingly and wipe off the extra.


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## glitch4200 (Jun 7, 2015)

Elnewman622 said:


> I've been using coconut oil to moisture my Russian Torts shell I don't use it a lot just when I think it is needed. I was wondering is it really worth it? It makes some what of of a differnce but not much. is it worth it in the long run? I don't want to be using it when I won't be seeing a chage.



What kind of change are you looking to see is my question? Coconut oil acts as a biofilm. It creates a chemical reaction within the alpha and beta keratin of the tortoise which are proteins that are combined amino acids.. These amino acids react with the organic acids and minerals in the coconut oil. My theory is that it increases alpha keratin (which you can't see) while gently decreasing beta keratin proliferation. (which you can't see). Technically the only thing you can 'see' is a shiny shell. Everything that happens is not able to be seen by the eyes. This is why understanding the biology of the proteins that make up the tortoises shell. (alpha and beta keratin) and the biochemistry of the amino acids and the biochemistry of the coconut oil is so important. 

Take this graph for example. This is what a scute looks like broken down to its smallest components, first look top right corner.


Then it gets broken down even farther... My goal is to determine how coconut oil effects the keratin expression and yes coconut oil decomposes into lactic acid which breaks down the process of beta keratin and increases aloha keratin. Alpha keratin is responsible for intracellular hydraulics that controls many process of the tortoise. (thermal regulation, Keratin hydrstion, biological action potential in proteins, etc.) Everything is effected by the artificial lamps that break hydrogen bonds. These bonds breaking is very detrimental to a Tortoise, as these bonds break the alpha keratin is suppressed creating a chain reaction, boosting beta keratin production is bad becuase it adds massive stress on the underlying bone. 




Almost everything is unseen. But trust me it's there..


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## mikeylazer (Jun 7, 2015)

glitch4200 said:


> What kind of change are you looking to see is my question? Coconut oil acts as a biofilm. It creates a chemical reaction within the alpha and beta keratin of the tortoise which are proteins that are combined amino acids.. These amino acids react with the organic acids and minerals in the coconut oil. My theory is that it increases alpha keratin (which you can't see) while gently decreasing beta keratin proliferation. (which you can't see). Technically the only thing you can 'see' is a shiny shell. Everything that happens is not able to be seen by the eyes. This is why understanding the biology of the proteins that make up the tortoises shell. (alpha and beta keratin) and the biochemistry of the amino acids and the biochemistry of the coconut oil is so important.
> 
> Take this graph for example. This is what a scute looks like broken down to its smallest components, first look top right corner.
> View attachment 133247
> ...


So its good?...


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## SteveW (Jun 7, 2015)

mikeylazer said:


> So its good?...



And what is good, Phadreus,
And what is not good?
Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Jun 7, 2015)

Its only my opinion but we soak our torts to keep moisture in the tort but now you want to put coconut oil or any oil that will keep moisture out of the shell . It don't make sense to me . But I guess I could be wrong .


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## Alaskamike (Jun 8, 2015)

I think as with any husbandry technique. it depends allot of your set up, where in the world you are, ambient temps, humidity, and how much time you have to attend to your torts. The high humid enclosed environments have been recommended and set up to counteract the drying out of shells, especially the desiccating effects of lamps. There is a huge difference in raising torts on open top tables indoors under artificial sunlight and heat lamps, outdoors in Arizona with low humidity or outside in South Florida with high humidity. There are differences between summer and winter issues no matter where you live.

What we take into account is the principle, and then adapt our environments to follow the principle of best care practices. The type of tortoise, age, etc, is also a consideration.

Shell structure, bone development remains much the same. But diet issues and temp variants do vary by species. There is no exact "one size fits all". This is why some inventiveness is helpful. 

I approach my charges with the idea that I am creating not a duplicate of their wild environment, but as much as possible an improvement on it. This is especially true of very young ones. In the wild the attrition rate is 90-100% for cohorts some years. We strive for 100% survival.

I wish I had known about both high humidity and coconut oil back in the 90's when I was trying to rescue Sulcatas in Alaska. They had to be raised indoors, always on open tables, or breezway floors where even with an indoor humidifier the averages were 30-40% and many people did not even do that and the indoor humidity in winter would fall below 20%. Add this to heat and UV lamps and all the Sulcata I saw had severe pyramiding - regardless of diet. I saved a few from dog food diets, no water, or only lettuce but the shell deformations did not improve much. I just didn't know.

This seems a long way around the block to say this - We can always improve and learn more. There is good indication that coconut oil can have a very positive effect on maintaining shell hydration, as well as an anti bacteria and anti fungal effect. If you have an enclosed high humid chamber environment, this may not have much benefit, however if you raise your tort outdoors in a dry environment, or on an open top table it would. 

I know we soak our torts on a regular basis, but this soaking is not to hydrate their shells as we do not cover them all the way up. The moisture that is absorbed is through the skin, not the shell. They drink, which is the best hydration for them. 

I use EVCO more as an anti fugal in South Florida, as low humidity is not much of an issue, except for a few months in the winter. Mine live out doors. In their hide now at 7:30 am it is 77f with 86% humidity and that is from the environment. It will be over 90f today. In studying the properties of coconut oil I don't see any real downside to application. Like any husbandry, effects are long term, I would not expect any quick changes. IMO is can't hurt, and potentially can help. That is enough for me to apply it about once a week in winter here, about once every 2 weeks in summer. If I was raising mine under artificial lamps. even in enclosed chambers, I'd use it more often.


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## glitch4200 (Jun 8, 2015)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> Its only my opinion but we soak our torts to keep moisture in the tort but now you want to put coconut oil or any oil that will keep moisture out of the shell . It don't make sense to me . But I guess I could be wrong .



We do soak our tortoises to keep water in. But usually in a soak only half of them is covered. Humidity provides the equilibrium for the alpha and beta keratin, soaks for internal hydration and skin hydrstion, and clean water for drinking(internal hydrstion) . These are the only ways your tortoise is getting hydrated... Now. Let's talk about artificial lamps.. 

When a Tortoise is exposed to low humidity table tops and high powered artificial lamps which emit high levels of 'unfiltered' Infrared. The tortoises shell and skin behind to undergo huge biological changes. ( 100% unnatural biological changes). This change has to do with the biochemistry of the keratin. When a Tortoise is under a low humidity lamp the lamp itself heats the shell cresting localized hot spots. Shown here in my thermal imaging study I did for myself. You can see localized hot spots that are completely unnatural and never occur in nature. 


These hot spots are breaking hydrogen molecules away from the protein. Essentially what happens is the lamp super heats the surrounding protein and blood tissues. This makes a hydrogen molecule seperate from the helical chain of alpha keratin. Here is the molecule structure of alpha keratin. You can see how hydrogen pretty much severely stabilizes the coil that makes aloha keratin. Without hydrogen the coil breaks into random assignment.



These bonds breaking decreases the action potential of the alpha keratin by decreasing intracellular hydraulics within the helical alpha chains. This decrease in hydraulics prompts a counter active measurre by proteins. This counter active measure is called proliferation of beta keratin bundles. Increasing beta keratin production dirextly increases bone stress. As the very stiff, dehydrated beta keratin grows all that shearing is directed to the bone below becuase of over production of beta keratin to protect alpha keratin. The only function of beta keratin is protection of the soft highly active alpha keratin. The only function of alpha keratin is to allow proper intracellular hydraulics between the blood vessels and surround tissue and bone. 


Irreversible damage to proteins that are severely dehydrated.. Well any tortoise expose to low humidity and how powered lamps can and will do Irreversible damage to the biological component of the alpha and beta keratin.



The more I learn about hydrogen bonding the more scary this becomes.. People have no idea the Irreversible damage they are casuinf to arguably the most important system on a Tortoise. 
Hydrophobic and hydrophilic forces place a huge role in protein folding. 



If a proteins fails to fold it can destabilize the entire keratin system. 



Mechanical stress of the keratin from hydrstion to dehydration stretches and pulls on the filament network also permenetly changing it if under enough stress.



Gene express is effected by this mechanical stress of keratin..



Do you not see how deep this is getting for me? I'll explain why coconut oil is so good for what I just described.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Jun 8, 2015)

I read your info . And it's very informative but what I was saying don't the coconut oil prevent moisture from entering through the shell , and air , and natural moisture from leaving the torts body ? Maybe I would understand better if you Sumerize all the info . You wrote .


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## glitch4200 (Jun 8, 2015)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> I read your info . And it's very informative but what I was saying don't the coconut oil prevent moisture from entering through the shell , and air , and natural moisture from leaving the torts body ? Maybe I would understand better if you Sumerize all the info . You wrote .



Yes and no. Coconut oil seems to prevent the breaking of hydrogen bonds from the lamps, from what I am understanding. But also makes the Keratin more hydrophobic to external water sources like humidity and microclimate. 

Coconut oil acts as a barrier but that barrier decomposes due to moisture and heat, which the tort is readily exposed too.. So now it is all about balancing how much coconut oil I apply to how fast it decomposes into organic acids. Check this out.. This is the decomposition of coconut oil under about 37 c. And high moisture availability. 


Funny thing is.. My tortoise has decent humidity and basks happily at 37 c. So this oil applied to him in these conditions allows me to use this graph as reference as to the decomposition of coconut oil and what will be effecting the Keratin after it does decompose into these acids.. 



So now there is a few other components to this, I will be updating my thread soon on all this so I won't go into as much detail.. But. . 

Coconut oil has infrared absorption properties that are quite amazing... And finally was able to overlay a bunch of charts together and found out that coconut oil really dampens the effect 'unfiltered' infrared.. Pretty much the bulbs we use.. All peak in the worst places... They peak in the water hungry zone.. Shown here.. The blue highlight shows water absorption bands. This chart is a special chart.. I'll explain later. 


These water hungry zones are what cause the tissues to heat rapidly as a bulb is very poor at heating evenly and the bulb being used is severely dehydrating the tortoise as a lamp peaks in these water hungry zones while being turned on.. 

The graph is special.. Instead of coconut oil.. To solve the whole high humidity to counter act lamps issue... Water filtered infrared is the answer.. This graph is actually an irridiation chart from a hydrosun lamp. It is a medical lamp used to rehydrate skin and repair intracellular hydration in cells. This lamp if put down into a practical device for keepers would effectively end the need for really high humidity habitats and completely destroy my need for coconut oil.. Coconut oil is not a solution to the unfiltered lamp issue.. It is just a counteractivr measure to help ease the damage these lamps are causing on a biological level in indoor kept tortoises and other reptiles for that matter . My goal is to to replicate this design for use in indoor tortoise and reptile keeping. It would filter infrared and repair and rehydrate cells instead of dehydrate them like what is being done now.. 



Humans don't care about this idea becuse we have the filtered sun.. That is why this lamp is only used in a medical setting.. Which by the way is pretty new stuff... If we can filter artificial lamps we could effectively keep tortoises indoors and very closely mimic the wild, as you would in an outdoor enclosure..


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## glitch4200 (Jun 8, 2015)

So coconut is applied to the keratin is all about balance.. Knowing it decomposes into an acid.. And knowing beta keratin which is the hard layer of the shell is created in a basic environment.. Organic acids will eat the beta keratin.. Thus decreasing bets keratin production.. This lessens the mechanical stress on the underlying bone.. Alpha keratin is acid environment.. So the coconut oil actually boosts the alpha keratin production.. Her is my female Russian tortoise.. Her alpha keratin production is crazy... She is growing like a weed... Ad her bone growth is excellent. 








I mean look how swollen the alpha keratin is at the hinge regions of the scutes.. And it's not just in little spots.. It's spread even all over.. Think of alpha keratin a pool and beta keratin as a floating top. As bone grows it expands but it needs a nice pool to do so. 

I have seen lateral growth less then vertical growth. Which is what I aiming for.. You want a tortoise to grow smooth to the ground not push up in a pyramid. Which we all know.. 

But I know that inhibited and inhibiting alpha keratin will make it way harder for proper growth. And artificial lamps inhibit and are constantly inhibiting aloha Keratjn in due to rapid breaking of hydrogen bonds.


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## glitch4200 (Jun 8, 2015)

Here is her recent x ray for bone evaluation.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Dec 14, 2015)

Love the x-rays.
All very interesting and I must get around to reading that huge thread about this. 
I'm still decidedly undecided.


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## Alaskamike (Dec 14, 2015)

This experiment and research about EVCO reminds me of the many revolutionary changes over the last 10 yrs or more on tortoise husbandry techniques. 

Even after 100ds if not 1000'ds of baby torts raised smooth in high humid environments some seasoned keepers resist the efficacy of closed chambers. It seemed counter intuitive to raise a " desert species" in 80% humidity. 

The debates over this were frequent and sometimes heated. 

One difference here with EVCO is the research glitch has done. Granted there are no double blind studies and being a newish idea , no large numbers of babies raised ( yet) with EVCO application. However , the science looks very promising. 

My rescue Sulcata is improving greatly the initial pyramiding with all the changes I've made. EVCO is only one of them. Too many variables to know how it contributed to the improvements. 

Sometimes you just have to learn what you can and give it your best shot. 

I use EVCO as a part of overall care. In all my research I see no down side - only potential benefits.


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## mike taylor (Dec 14, 2015)

You really don't need it . Ditch the hot lights and use a small heater on a thermostat . Then install a humidifier on the same thermostat . So heat is on the same time the humidifier is on . This keeps the enclosure warm and humid without drying out the tortoises shell . In the wild they aren't running around in full sun . They are hiding in shrubs or underground . You don't have to bake them with hot lights . With my reds I have been using a small heater ,a uvb fixture , humidifier ,and a small fan to keep the air moving works great . I've had no shell rot since they have been here with me . The enclosure stay 85 on the cool side then 90 on the hot side . The heater is mounted with a fan blowing the hot air down . So that side stays a little warmer .


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## SteveW (Dec 14, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> You really don't need it . Ditch the hot lights and use a small heater on a thermostat . Then install a humidifier on the same thermostat . So heat is on the same time the humidifier is on . This keeps the enclosure warm and humid without drying out the tortoises shell . In the wild they aren't running around in full sun . They are hiding in shrubs or underground . You don't have to bake them with hot lights . With my reds I have been using a small heater ,a uvb fixture , humidifier ,and a small fan to keep the air moving works great . I've had no shell rot since they have been here with me . The enclosure stay 85 on the cool side then 90 on the hot side . The heater is mounted with a fan blowing the hot air down . So that side stays a little warmer .



Word.


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## glitch4200 (Dec 15, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> You really don't need it . Ditch the hot lights and use a small heater on a thermostat . Then install a humidifier on the same thermostat . So heat is on the same time the humidifier is on . This keeps the enclosure warm and humid without drying out the tortoises shell . In the wild they aren't running around in full sun . They are hiding in shrubs or underground . You don't have to bake them with hot lights . With my reds I have been using a small heater ,a uvb fixture , humidifier ,and a small fan to keep the air moving works great . I've had no shell rot since they have been here with me . The enclosure stay 85 on the cool side then 90 on the hot side . The heater is mounted with a fan blowing the hot air down . So that side stays a little warmer .





I find a few things of concern with this set up.. First of all.. A single uvb lamp will not emit the full spectrum that the sun provides if the tortoise is outside... A single heat emitter with a fan is strictly infrared emission. you the you the you L the you So you strictly rely on the uvb bulb you use to provide the entire spectrum the sun provides.. And that does not happen with any uvb bulb on the market. You need multiple bulbs of different kinds to fully hit the spectrum the sun provides. To me your habitat lacks the the full spectrum you would see outside. Where as the use of bulbs allow a wider range of possible sun like emissions. Tortoises see parts of the spectrum outside humans capabilities like infrared and deeper uv, it is how they distinguish food and all kinds of stuff. 

Tortoises also like to bask. They are seen doing it all the time in nature. But yet all you are providing is ambient heat and no basking heat to really warm the core temp up. So maybe I am wrong but to me when I see my tortoises lay under a bulbs hot zone as part of their routine, to me I see some behavior as though that bulb is the sun. They bask. 




They like to fall asleep in the hot area even though my ambient temp is 85f. And my shaded moist areas can go down to about 75f. So they can easily reach any temp they want. Yet they choose the warmest area to sleep, sometimes for hours. 


Also I feel like for Russian tortoise 90 f is to low. My tortoises will bask under a hot zone steady at 98f. Even though they can go to any area and reach any temp they like down to 75f during the day. And my night ambient temp is between 68 and 72 almost always. 

And I never said you needed coconut oil. I said it can help, majority of keepers I see use some sort of bulb. Very few use radiant heat panels, or some style NON hot spot emitter like ceramic emitter. They still emit unfiltered infrared no matter how you cut it. If a tort chose to bask under any style of unfiltered basking lamp they are being bombarded with unfiltered emissions that interact with moisture through the habitat and the tortoises anatomy.


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## mike taylor (Dec 15, 2015)

You are right I don't use ten different uvb lamps . I have two in a four foot fixtures . I also have red footed tortoises not Russians . When my reds are out in their outside enclosure they stay in their hides most of the day or in water to cool down I guess . They love mud holes . My sulcatas set up outside is done the same way . Only I use do not use uvb . But they can come and go as they will . So I will stand by my setups they work and I have no burned dried out tortoises . I have no breathing problems that most ask about . My tortoises also go to the vet for yearly check ups with no problems . So is there more than one way to do something Yes . If this will work for Russians I have no idea but you can try and see . I know Tom has tried something close to what I'm saying with heat panels . With sulcatas . He has a thread on his setup . Just because your tortoise shell is at 98 ° doesn't make one way right and another wrong . When my tortoises are outside in summer the hide from these temperatures . I rarely see them out in high sun . If they are they are sitting in their mud holes .


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## mike taylor (Dec 15, 2015)

Here is some pictures of how its setup . You see the pictures of the reds in full sun ? Where are they ? In water to cool down . I really never see them just sitting and baking themselves . Like my water turtles do .


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## Tidgy's Dad (Dec 15, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> Here is some pictures of how its setup . You see the pictures of the reds in full sun ? Where are they ? In water to cool down . I really never see them just sitting and baking themselves . Like my water turtles do .


Nice pictures, Mike.


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## SteveW (Dec 15, 2015)

glitch4200 said:


> I find a few things of concern with this set up.. First of all.. A single uvb lamp will not emit the full spectrum that the sun provides if the tortoise is outside... A single heat emitter with a fan is strictly infrared emission. you the you the you L the you So you strictly rely on the uvb bulb you use to provide the entire spectrum the sun provides.. And that does not happen with any uvb bulb on the market. You need multiple bulbs of different kinds to fully hit the spectrum the sun provides. To me your habitat lacks the the full spectrum you would see outside. Where as the use of bulbs allow a wider range of possible sun like emissions. Tortoises see parts of the spectrum outside humans capabilities like infrared and deeper uv, it is how they distinguish food and all kinds of stuff.
> 
> Tortoises also like to bask. They are seen doing it all the time in nature. But yet all you are providing is ambient heat and no basking heat to really warm the core temp up. So maybe I am wrong but to me when I see my tortoises lay under a bulbs hot zone as part of their routine, to me I see some behavior as though that bulb is the sun. They bask.
> View attachment 158794
> ...



Interesting. I have a few questions. 
1) I had no idea that tortoises see infrared. I'd love to see a reference along that line. 

2) Not all tortoises like to bask. I have a Redfoot and a Mep and both avoid bright lights or at least don't linger there. I guess that isn't a question, more of a correction. 

3) Have you considered that your tortoise sleeping under the lights is after heat and not illumination? Perhaps you could try a shaded area in the 90's. 

4) which bulbs or combination of bulbs are you using that duplicates the entire spectrum of the sun? It would be awesome to see some spectroscopy. 

5). What informs your assertion that most folks don't use CHE or radiant heat panels? It's a small sample size, but I don't know anyone that doesn't. 

6) Getting back to your light-as-heat setup; have you considered the possibility that by providing adequate (as demonstrated by your tortoises behavior) heat only in combination with very bright, direct light, you are inadvertently creating the conditions that coconut oil may help with?

Sorry for so many questions. Inquiring minds just want to know


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## mike taylor (Dec 15, 2015)

Why thank you Sir . I try to make my animals happy . If you watch them you will find the energy levels are higher when you give them the right temperatures . If you have it to hot they get lazy . To cold lazy . Just right moving pooping machines . But this is just how I do it . Plus I didn't spray any of my animals before the pictures . That's from early morning or late afternoon humidity . From my humidifiers . Plus they love their water bowls .


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## mike taylor (Dec 15, 2015)

I know they have pyramiding . All my tortoises come second hand rescues if you will. I only bought one red foot . She was six inches and bumpy when I got here . I got my two big sulcatas from Kelly's rescue and one red foot . The other reds came from some ex members here and friends . The small smooth sulcata going in is house I got as a baby . My wife pick him up from a pet store . He is the only one that I've had from a baby . Besides my two leopards .


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## mike taylor (Dec 15, 2015)

You can see how small dozer was in the Pictures . Here are my two leopards . The black one I got from Kelly's place . The white one was from Greg T . None of them have metabolic bone disease . From lack of ten uvb lamps . My tortoises do have uvb fixtures indoors . The key is let them outside when possible .Feed them foods that are good for them . Provide the right hydration you you will not need to oil your tortoise .


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## mike taylor (Dec 15, 2015)

This oil thing really chaps me . Where in nature do you find the tortoise gods oiling tortoises ? That's just like when people say their enclosures are to big . Where in nature do you see the tortoise gods building small boxed in areas for them ? Adjust your heat and humidity . Get your tortoises outside . Feed them as close as you can to what they eat in the wild . Get them hot lamps off their backs . How do you heat your houses in winter ? People keep forgetting the microclimate ! Tortoises use the crap out of them . Try making the perfect microclimate. Your tortoises will let you know they like it by doing what they do . Walking ,eating, pooping, and humping . But who am I ? I'm just a guy . I have no college degrees .


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## Tidgy's Dad (Dec 15, 2015)

glitch4200 said:


> I find a few things of concern with this set up.. First of all.. A single uvb lamp will not emit the full spectrum that the sun provides if the tortoise is outside... A single heat emitter with a fan is strictly infrared emission. you the you the you L the you So you strictly rely on the uvb bulb you use to provide the entire spectrum the sun provides.. And that does not happen with any uvb bulb on the market. You need multiple bulbs of different kinds to fully hit the spectrum the sun provides. To me your habitat lacks the the full spectrum you would see outside. Where as the use of bulbs allow a wider range of possible sun like emissions. Tortoises see parts of the spectrum outside humans capabilities like infrared and deeper uv, it is how they distinguish food and all kinds of stuff.
> 
> Tortoises also like to bask. They are seen doing it all the time in nature. But yet all you are providing is ambient heat and no basking heat to really warm the core temp up. So maybe I am wrong but to me when I see my tortoises lay under a bulbs hot zone as part of their routine, to me I see some behavior as though that bulb is the sun. They bask.
> View attachment 158794
> ...


i am a little concerned by this post.
Tortoises do not see in infra red.
What is deep uv ?
Tortoises see UVA but not any 'deeper', they cannot see UVB.
Many people I know on the forum use CHE's for heating and most pet shops I have visited in Europe sell them for use with tortoises (and other animals).
I am about to embark on reading your huge coconut oil thread, but am now a little concerned that you are printing pages out of books and research papers to support your argument without understanding either science or how people keep tortoises.
I hope I am wrong because your tortoises look beautiful and i at least hope the coconut oil would be useful in the case of very dry and flaky shells.
I use a bulb only during long periods of very bad weather, mostly my tort is out in the day. I know no one else that uses a bulb at all in this country, they're not available here and no one I've met who owns a tortoise has even heard it is a good idea. There are hundreds of keepers in this city alone.
So perhaps the oil isn't necessary for us anyway.
But I do, honestly, look forward to reading the whole 'big thread' in more detail , as I am certain there is something to be learned here.


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## SteveW (Dec 15, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> This oil thing really chaps me . .



You know, I bet some extra virgin organic coconut oil would help with the chapping.


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## SteveW (Dec 15, 2015)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> i am a little concerned by this post.
> Tortoises do not see in infra red.
> What is deep uv ?
> Tortoises see UVA but not any 'deeper', they cannot see UVB.
> ...



Well said, sir.


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## mike taylor (Dec 15, 2015)

SteveW said:


> You know, I bet some extra virgin organic coconut oil would help with the chapping.


You think I should use several lamps also ?


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## Tidgy's Dad (Dec 15, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> You think I should use several lamps also ?


As far as I can tell it is being suggested that the use of UVB bulbs and basking bulbs dries out the tortoises carapace and so the use of this EVCO can replace lost moisture in the shell keratin. Fair enough, but surely the sun would dry out the tortoises even more, indeed more so, unless you use the full range of bulbs as is being suggested. 
It is obvious that many keepers in colder climes such as out British friends and many in some parts of the USA need to provide UVB and heat for their tortoises for at least a few months a year, but to suggest using several bulbs is a little strange, these things are expensive, many keepers have to stretch themselves to replace theirs every six months or so and that's for just one bulb.
Many owners on this forum keep their tortoises almost entirely or, indeed, entirely in an indoor enclosure, people who live in flats, as just one example and many of their tortoises that i have seen photographed look perfectly alright to me as long as their set up is good.


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## mike taylor (Dec 15, 2015)

Exactly ! That's all I'm saying . Make a good microclimate ! You can over think somethings to death . You can heat a enclosure without all them heat lamps to .


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## mike taylor (Dec 15, 2015)

When are people going to understand microclimates . If its 120 ° the tortoises are going to find shade . Be it underground in a bush or mud hole . There's one thing common with all three humidity . Under a bush is humid dug down . The hole or borrow is humid . The water hole is humid . All three are cooler than out in the sun . What happens in the morning ? As the cool night air warms it makes dew right . That's when most animals come out of hiding get some food and water . Then as the day heats up they find a shady spot . Then as the day cools off they eat then find a place to hide . They don't stay out with sun roasting them .


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## mike taylor (Dec 15, 2015)

I'm not saying they don't need to bask some do . They don't do it all day every day . So stop making them in small enclosures . Give them room To get away from the heat . Give them a humid hide . Give them water . Then maybe you will not need to rub oils all over your tortoise .


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## glitch4200 (Dec 16, 2015)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> i am a little concerned by this post.
> Tortoises do not see in infra red.
> What is deep uv ?
> Tortoises see UVA but not any 'deeper', they cannot see UVB.
> ...



I wish could find the article from the dude in Africa that studies sulcata, and that showed that tortoises see better spectrum then humans. First off humans can't see uva, are visable spectrum stops at violet, uva is squarely in the UV side of the spectrum. Unseeable to humans. But visible to tortoises. 

so that would be my considering deeper spectrum.. And according the article I read they can see past the red visible spectrum to a deeper shade of red, which is what infrared dissappear from red to full invisible infrared (heat). 

And I trust in my self to understand the science behind it.. I am going to be going into clinical psychology, specifically drug research in the field of neurology. My entire profession is based off of correctly citing and sourcing research articles and creating the framework to my own research. I would hope damn well I know how to research and to present it properly. 

Bringing me to my next point.. I have laid out multiple premises to coconut oil, backed up with research from multiple journals. Its taken me some time but I will be presenting a 40 plus page research paper on unfiltered infrared and coconut oil use in tortoises. Literally going over every single thing I have learned and sharing it all with you. Fully sited and sourced.


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## glitch4200 (Dec 16, 2015)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> As far as I can tell it is being suggested that the use of UVB bulbs and basking bulbs dries out the tortoises carapace and so the use of this EVCO can replace lost moisture in the shell keratin. Fair enough, but surely the sun would dry out the tortoises even more, indeed more so, unless you use the full range of bulbs as is being suggested.
> It is obvious that many keepers in colder climes such as out British friends and many in some parts of the USA need to provide UVB and heat for their tortoises for at least a few months a year, but to suggest using several bulbs is a little strange, these things are expensive, many keepers have to stretch themselves to replace theirs every six months or so and that's for just one bulb.
> Many owners on this forum keep their tortoises almost entirely or, indeed, entirely in an indoor enclosure, people who live in flats, as just one example and many of their tortoises that i have seen photographed look perfectly alright to me as long as their set up is good.




The sun does NOT dry out the shell and skin like unfiltered basking bulbs do. The sun is strictly water filtered because of a presence of an atmosphere between the sun and earth that is completely filled with water vapor. All basking lamps are unfiltered because any emissions in the infrared side of the spectrum that emits IR-A and lacks a atmosphere between bulb and tort WILL be unfiltered. No atmosphere with water, no water filtration. 

Now if you don't have a water filtered basking lamp.. And that basking lamp is used on any tortoise. That basking lamp promotes what is called localized heating and environmental dehydration. That is the super heated sections of beta and alpha Kerstin due to bad heat distribution from the lamps. The bad distribution of heat creates hot spots in the skin and shell due to over heating tissues vibrating and loosing both water from the blood and hydrogen from the alpha Kerstin amino acid chains which stabilize the entire protein.. Also due to some preliminary experiments on habitat dehydration from basking lamps that I am currently running. Set ups that use unfiltered basking lamps such as a 100 watt mercury vapor or other incandescent or halogen bulbs dehydrate the habitat by as much as 1.8 quarts of water a day when used in combo with one another lamp from lights on to lights off. Ever wonder why you are constantly soaking the substrate? It is because the unfiltered bulbs suck all the relative humidity out. 

Here is a great article on unfiltered basking bulbs. 

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/baskinghealth.html

Here is Dr.Francis Baines of the UVguide.uk talking about the difference between basking lamps and the sun. Who by the way I am in contact with about my research in reptile lighting, and who has agreed to review my work. 

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/84606/

This picture comes from someone who also worked with her on full spectrum lighting and made this picture repenting a full correct lighting scheme, that allows full spectrum of the sun being mimicked while offering the correct temp gradients.



The idea of using many lamps to heat and light a tort has to do with basking zone vs basking 'spot and distribution of light correctly and evenly throughout so you don't have a dark area except for shaded areas. 




The use of one lamp will clearly give a basking' spot' which ultimately leads to poor thermal regulation, localized heating of tissues, and a narrow hot zone to move around in. This increases basking time as ambient heat isn't as good as it can be with the use of more then one lamp. All bulbs are engineered to have a coverage zone. Which on majority of bulbs are very little.. Only flood lamps offer a wide beam.. So the use of multiple lamps at a higher distance isn't dumb at all. It provides a wide basking zone, better ambient heat control, less localized heating and a better distribution of 'seeing' light.


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## glitch4200 (Dec 16, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> I'm not saying they don't need to bask some do . They don't do it all day every day . So stop making them in small enclosures . Give them room To get away from the heat . Give them a humid hide . Give them water . Then maybe you will not need to rub oils all over your tortoise .



First of all. I make sure they always have a very moist Microclimate. As their is no "Microclimate" without the presence of moisture in the substrste. What did we just finish talking about? Dehydration of the habitat due to lamps. Hard to maintain a microclimate in a habitat that is constantly dried out by days end. 

Unless your very consistent on soaks and habitat hydration, you will quickly see how fast you lose a microclimate... Have you ever realized some people in colder climates do not have the luxury to keep their tortoises outdoors, except for a few months out of the year. That means the other 6 to 7 months are spent under artificial basking bulbs. The sun is the best of the best, you can't beat it. If you can keep your tortoise away from all dissecting unfiltered basking bulbs majority of the year.. Then I applaud you. Because in my situation I can't. Since your tortoises do not stay exposed to such artificial basking lamps you don't see what these lamps do to tortoises who are exposed to them for the long term, except through others maybe. 

I see through out social media many many people's habitats, all see the common issue of constantly drying out habitats due to basking bulbs. And tortoises who are exposed to these lamps for extreme periods of times for whatevee reason usually has some form of dehydrated tort, dry shell or skin, or constantly fighting the dry habitats. 

Now, I soak my tortoise almost every day for the length of time they choose, I provide humid hides in all my shaded areas. I use microfiber towels that are soaked in numerous places to help keep relative humidity in. I constantly soak the habitat with water to give the best microclimate possible yet even with a that hydration, I still saw localized drying out of the shell and skin. Until I started coconut oil that is. Now I don't see that effect from these lamps on the shell and skin, from my personal experience after over a year of consistent application 



And it has been shown that a closed chamber is much easier to stabilize those variables then an open table top. I fully agree. But both my habitats are partially open table tops with roofs, making my relative humidity almost impossible to stabilize. My humidity is constantly struggling to stay above 50 percent. And I see levels as low as 30 percent, even though I try my hardest to keep it above 60 percent. That means my habitat is dry mostly, and it has been shown through numerous sources here that dry habitats promote pyramiding. Yet I have not been seeing any in my tortoises and I attribute that soley on my consistency on soaks and my use of coconut oil.


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## glitch4200 (Dec 16, 2015)

SteveW said:


> Interesting. I have a few questions.
> 1) I had no idea that tortoises see infrared. I'd love to see a reference along that line.
> 
> 2) Not all tortoises like to bask. I have a Redfoot and a Mep and both avoid bright lights or at least don't linger there. I guess that isn't a question, more of a correction.
> ...



#1. I wish I could find the article, it is buried under 2 plus months of threads on Facebook. 

#2. I disagree all torts like to bask in the sun. They are solar powered.. Now basking in the bright artifical lamps might not be as pleasurable as the sun, or maybe they don't like to bask because the lighting scheme is not conducive to basking. Or maybe different species like different things. I could see a redfoot no bask as much as let's say a Russian. But they would still bask. 

#3 yes. It's possible, they might like the 90 f. Shaded heated side, but then limiting my light in an already small habitat isn't really conducive to wanting to explore. If I had a huge indoor habitat with a lot of space I would incorporate a separate heated shade area. Now due to the size of my habitat voiding a side of light would not be feasible. 

#4 I personally don't have the full spectrum replicated with my bulbs yet. But a full spectrum would include the use of the combo of the following bulbs. 
* Arcadia T8 uvb 12 percent stripe tube. = deeper blues and violets, Uva, uvb, (strictly seeing light and uvb) 
* 5000k full spectrum florescent tube= full visable light (strictly seeing light) 
* ** watt metal halide = Uva and visable spectrum and heat 
* par38 halogen flood lamp = heat 
As outlined by the illustration. 



#5 My constant social media presence and being apart of every tortoise group available. The use of bulbs and ceramic emitters are rampant. Very few people I have seen use radiant heat panels. Many do use ceramic heating elements but they are the very worst tissue heaters... So using them as basking bulbs is very detrimental to the skin ns shell. The infrared emitted in the CHE is very poor tissue penetrators meaning they lose their energy at the top of tissues.. They don't deep tissue heat like IR-A, which is why you need a basking bulb. As they emit the most IR-A. Which is a deep core heating.. The energy in IR-A penetrates deeply to provide very good core heating. Constantly superheating the tissues from a CHE, as a basking bulb will clearly cause severe tissue dehydration just from knowing the mechanics behind tissue heating. 

#6 . Sure I have considered it.. But knowing what I know from my study on these artificial lamps, I know that a ceramic emitter isn't the best type of heat you can provide to a tortoise. I know people use them successfully in this forum but many many of keeps and new owners outside this forum who use them do not use them correctly... And the tortoise is pretty deformed from the poor localized heating and constant basking they do under these lamps, which promotes the localized heating and dehydration of tissue.. And I see that consnttly.. Not just from CHE but from all these lamps.. And not understand that these lamps steal water from the surrounding habitat and tort anatomy. 

The sun is direct light.. That so just perfect. I thinking keeping them warm and in the dark is not conducive to seeing the full range of activity they can display. Maybe that is strictly species specific but I know my tortoises didn't do well when only one side was lit up and heated. They did much much better when the entire habitat was lit and heated.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Dec 16, 2015)

glitch4200 said:


> The sun does NOT dry out the shell and skin like unfiltered basking bulbs do. The sun is strictly water filtered because of a presence of an atmosphere between the sun and earth that is completely filled with water vapor. All basking lamps are unfiltered because any emissions in the infrared side of the spectrum that emits IR-A and lacks a atmosphere between bulb and tort WILL be unfiltered. No atmosphere with water, no water filtration.
> 
> Now if you don't have a water filtered basking lamp.. And that basking lamp is used on any tortoise. That basking lamp promotes what is called localized heating and environmental dehydration. That is the super heated sections of beta and alpha Kerstin due to bad heat distribution from the lamps. The bad distribution of heat creates hot spots in the skin and shell due to over heating tissues vibrating and loosing both water from the blood and hydrogen from the alpha Kerstin amino acid chains which stabilize the entire protein.. Also due to some preliminary experiments on habitat dehydration from basking lamps that I am currently running. Set ups that use unfiltered basking lamps such as a 100 watt mercury vapor or other incandescent or halogen bulbs dehydrate the habitat by as much as 1.8 quarts of water a day when used in combo with one another lamp from lights on to lights off. Ever wonder why you are constantly soaking the substrate? It is because the unfiltered bulbs suck all the relative humidity out.
> 
> ...


Firstly, thank you so much for replying in such detail and taking some considerable time to respond to these posts.
It is all certainly very interesting.
Secondly,referring to your first reply to me, I am fully aware that humans cannot see the UV parts of the spectrum at all, and that tortoises can see UVA light, but your earlier post at least implied that they could see more of the UV range and Infra red, which they can't. 
I look forward to your research paper with some anticipation. 
Next, in the post to which this is a reply, you say the sun 'does NOT dry out the shell and skin like unfiltered basking lamps do.' 
Well, they may not do it in the same way, precisely but the sun does dry out shells, skins and everything else. It dries out my skin very well given half a chance and my washing dries very quickly here. What does 'strictly water filtered' mean ? Why 'strictly' ? I am aware the Earth has an atmosphere, but it is not 'completely filled' with water vapour. Water vapour is about 1% average at sea level (though this varies) and 0.4% over the atmosphere as a whole. I understand that the filtering occurs through many kilometres of atmosphere and that lamps will have an unnatural effect, but sometimes it is the only possible option. It is not possible for most keepers to operate a system of multiple lamps at higher levels, we have to do the best we can. 
How much would the sun or, indeed, ambient heat dehydrate the habitat ? I have to sometimes soak my substrate, not constantly, because it is hot here, not because of the bulb, i've not noticed any difference in the amount of times, or the amount of water I have to add to the substrate in the majority of the year when i don't use an MVB, or the short period of time when I do. 
To go on to your following posts, a humid microclimate can be fairly easily maintained with a good closed chamber habitat, it isn't dried out by the end of the day, even with the lamp and CHE being used. The CHE is only used at night when my tortoise is in a nice humid hidey-hole. 
However, some of the information on artificial lighting is very, erm, enlightening and I will read the thread on coconut oil with some interest to see if it does help with skin dryness without any negative effects or whether it's effects are purely cosmetic to give a nice shiny shell. 
Thank you so much for this fascinating hypothesis.


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## SteveW (Dec 16, 2015)

Well then. For the sake of expediency, I'll respond to just a few points and then ever so briefly. First, making a banal assertion like, "they are solar powered" is not the same as nor a replacement for evidence. What point are trying to make? What observation and of which species informs your opinion? I have only eight species and basking behavior is not consistent nor universal, nor is it adequately described by 'solar powered'. 

Vast examples of poor husbandry on Facebook is not evidence for the need for coconut oil; it's evidence for the need for better husbandry. It's still irrelevant to the point. 

Are your Russians adults? I ask because it appears their lack of pyramiding is being presented as evidence of efficacy. Do you happen to know if it is possible to generate pyramiding in an adult? I've never seen that. 

UVA vision in tortoises is not being questioned. Your assertion that vision includes IR, however, is. Repeating and restating the former is of no utility in supporting the latter. 

I like your hypothetical lighting set up. Have you tried it? Does it remove the need for regular oiling? If you're not raising hatchlings/juveniles under those conditions, how do you know?

I have difficulty spending much time following your threads as I find them high on volume and low on clarity, but I have noticed some commonality in your posts, aside from verbosity:

- Poor conditions on Facebook informs the need for oiling. 
- charts and graphs of any correlated subjects are entered into evidence (who is arguing for the use of spot lights?)
- sweeping generalities are ignored (i.e. Adult Russians are assumed as representational.)
- your own husbandry is ignored. This is not intended to be mean spirited, but dude, that setup needs work. 

Upon review, I guess that wasn't particularly brief. As to the OP and the question of is coconut oil necessary, I'd say the answer is that the need has not yet been established.


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## glitch4200 (Dec 16, 2015)

SteveW said:


> Well then. For the sake of expediency, I'll respond to just a few points and then ever so briefly. First, making a banal assertion like, "they are solar powered" is not the same as nor a replacement for evidence. What point are trying to make? What observation and of which species informs your opinion? I have only eight species and basking behavior is not consistent nor universal, nor is it adequately described by 'solar powered'.
> 
> Vast examples of poor husbandry on Facebook is not evidence for the need for coconut oil; it's evidence for the need for better husbandry. It's still irrelevant to the point.
> 
> ...




My notion of being solar powered, stems around the idea of being completely evolved around the full spectrum emitted by the sun. Regardless of species around the world they all get the same spectrum of water filtered emissions from that sun at varying levels during the day. That is universal. An absolute in this equation. 

Indoors strictly, they must live in a habitat that is run solely by artifical lamps. As we do not have the sun indoors, obviously. Thus a big variable in their health lies in this variable of getting the proper light to heat ratio, like outdoors (species specific). The lamps we provide them with (or lack their of) is the only source of the suns spectrum that they would normally receive outside. Wouldn't the most natural habitat be one that stimulates the full spectrum of the outside sun?! I would think so. 

I do only have minimal experience in observation of different species, as I only have 2x Russian tortoises. My sample size is not a representation of the population. Nor is it statically representative to drawn correlation by normal standards. But it is what I have to go off. And it does provide me some anecdotal information, that does seem to correlate with others observations and of others research. So I base my best answers off of these. 

I never stated vast evidence of poor husbandry on Facebook warranted the need to use coconut oil.. But many of these tortoises are super dry and flaking from the poor husbandry they are in. I always push for better husbandry first.. Always. Then when they ask about their tortoise being dry and flaking or whatnot I always say use coconut oil. I have never stated that coconut oil is a solution to poor lighting schemas and set up. Not once.

Yes both my Russians are adults.. I got both about 4 inches long and they now are 5 inches plus and have gained healthy weight each. I never said a lack of pyramiding in my tortoises is evidence of coconut oil solely, but from my research I have the personal opinion if done in the correct scientific method way using a real statistically sound experiment, we would see strong correlation to coconut oil and decreased build up of beta keratin (scute thickening) and substantial increase in healthy Matrix of alpha keratin to grow rstio. 
I have a sound hypothesis to this. 
Can I induce pyramiding in a tortoise yes. I believe I personally could. Give it hot baking lights that promote localized heating of the shell past 100f to activate the heat stress proteins embedded in the bets keratin core box,which stimulate proliferation of the shell, add a poor fiber diet, with lack of proper calcium to phosphorus ratio and yes I can almost certain induce pyramiding. 
In my opinion I have separated the types of pyramiding in torts. Type 1

Weak bones + severe shell mechanicall stresses will lead to severe deformation. 

Whereas type 2 , strong bones (proper diet and micronutrients) will resist the mechanical stresses of the bone only leading to my atheistic pyramiding, like thus seen in nature. 

But why the hell would I ever do that? All you need to do is weaken the bones and make the shell proliferate severely increasing the mechanical stresses, expose to super dry environment to unfiltered lamps and boom. Easy. (all my strict opinion) 

That hypothetical lighting has not been tried yet. It is what I want to mimic though. It hits all the needed areas of the spectrum and exploits them in full power. But that comes Dr. Baines I believe. My research that I have been working on and is in prototyping stage, is an adapter that connects all these unfiltered lamps to a hub unit and effectively water filters them like the atmosphere does. My friend and I have created an invention that filters these lamps. Literally. 

Dr. Baines of the UVguide.uk is going to be very nicely doing a full analysis on this invention we are creating. 
Actually my deadline is mid January 2016 to have it in her hands. So very soon I will have the first up and running fully water filtered sun light in my habitat. First one ever. 

My current set up is part of set up needed to run my invention, I don't know what upgrades you suggest. But, my habitat is like that for a very specific reason. Other then maybe increasing the size, I have no idea what improvements you see to be done. I have multiple hides, kept humid, I provide shade around all my basking lamps, I provide sight barriers and a microclimate, they are taken out every day to roam the tortoise room, soaked almost daily, my ambient temp is 85f, my cool zoned hides dip down to a cool 75f. And my basking temp is about 98f. And a night temp drop to about 68 to 71f. 




What again do you suggest? 

Yes charts and graphs are entered as evidence. That is how you build a case and do research. The point of the graph was to show why and how single basking bulb emits a basking 'spot'. Yet these bulbs are the most commonly seen in people's habitat on social media. When I am apart of 7 groups ranging over 30,000 tort keepers u se see a lot of people habitats and lighting schemes. Sooooo many people don't use flood lamps. Just regular incandescent bulbs or non flood lamp bulbs. So that graph shows why, exp to bigger species tortoises it can promote localized heating and poor tissue penetration and why you should use a multiple lamp lighting scheme. 

To me you still haven't shown me why coconut oil shouldn't be used in certain instances. In my other thread I lay out what the oil does in much more detail.


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## glitch4200 (Dec 16, 2015)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Firstly, thank you so much for replying in such detail and taking some considerable time to respond to these posts.
> It is all certainly very interesting.
> Secondly,referring to your first reply to me, I am fully aware that humans cannot see the UV parts of the spectrum at all, and that tortoises can see UVA light, but your earlier post at least implied that they could see more of the UV range and Infra red, which they can't.
> I look forward to your research paper with some anticipation.
> ...



Of course! I gotta defend my idea.. Even if that means going over this stuff again. The sun does dehydrate the area a tad but nothing like when you have an unfiltered basking lamp. 
Eventually I will present an experiment that will show the difference between a habitat that is using unfiltered basking lamps vs water filtered basking lamps. As I am inventing an adapter that will effectively filter all these unfiltered bulbs. 

The experiment is to show you how much water is taken from the unfiltered basking bulbs in a habitat vs a comparison to my soon to be patent pending water filtration adapter and how much water is taken when you apply a water filtered basking lamp in contrast. 

When this adapter is finished the need to use any coconut oil in my habitat will be of no need. As the whole issue of unfiltered basking lamps will no longer apply. No unfiltered basking lamps, no extra hydration taken from either the habitat nor the tortoises shell or skin = no need of the oil. Ultimately that is my goal. To end the issues of using any unfiltered basking lamps in any indoor habitats or shelters. If we can successfully finish this and get Dr Baines support from her analysis on the invention, then unfiltered basking lamps will be a thing of the past.. And so will coconut oil and it's usage outside maybe some medical possibilities with its antimicrobial and antifungal properties.


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## SteveW (Dec 16, 2015)

glitch4200 said:


> My notion of being solar powered, stems around the idea of being completely evolved around the full spectrum emitted by the sun. Regardless of species around the world they all get the same spectrum of water filtered emissions from that sun at varying levels during the day. That is universal. An absolute in this equation.
> 
> Indoors strictly, they must live in a habitat that is run solely by artifical lamps. As we do not have the sun indoors, obviously. Thus a big variable in their health lies in this variable of getting the proper light to heat ratio, like outdoors (species specific). The lamps we provide them with (or lack their of) is the only source of the suns spectrum that they would normally receive outside. Wouldn't the most natural habitat be one that stimulates the full spectrum of the outside sun?! I would think so.
> 
> ...




So you're sticking with the assertion that a crepuscular Equatorial species experiences the same spectrum as a diurnal mid-latitude species and further asserting 'That is universal. An absolute in this equation."?

I reject that as baseless and nonsensical. 

To your last point, it is bad form and an invalid argument to require me to prove a negative, and in the absence of proof assert the alternative must be true. Although, if pressed, I suppose the legions of healthy shells and their respective tortoises, all exposed to 'unfiltered IR' would constitute a kind of proof. 

For Pete's sake, drop the Facebook/social media stuff, it's beginning to feel like a straw man. I'm not going to comment on them or defend them and they're not here to defend themselves. 

Thanks for the reminder that charts and graphs are how you build a case and do research. I'll return the favor: only if they are relevant. I'm not arguing for spot lights. I don't think I've ever heard anyone argue for spot lights. The point stands, no graphics needed. 

I'll counter your anecdotal evidence with some of my own; I understand leopard tortoises to be particularly vulnerable to shell deformities. Mine is eight months old and I got her with egg tooth still in place. During her subsequent 7 months with me, her weight has increased by 6x. She has lived exclusively indoors, with 'unfiltered' lights and zero oils on her shell. Her shell looks like this:




Why exactly do I need coconut oil or a water filtered bulb?

I didn't realize you had an economic interest in this discussion, but I suppose I appreciate you mentioning it. Within that context, your fervor makes a lot more sense. 

And back to the OP and the Is-coconut-oil-necessary question; lots of healthy tortoises raised without it.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Dec 16, 2015)

It was 77°F outside today.
The autumn rains have not come.
The humidity is 14%.
My garden and the surrounding countryside is burned to a crisp, everything is dead or dying and light bulbs are not responsible.
The sun is.
Admittedly, in nature my tort would be hibernating, in a cool, humid hole somewhere, but how many of these bunkers will dry out as the drought continues. I very much doubt that all the hibernating wild tortoises will survive. 
I prefer to keep my tortoise in a nice warm and humid, artificial environment which i can largely control, though she still goes out everyday for sun time to get her proper UVB and then back to her nice, safe, humid enclosure. She will be given her UVB bulb when we're stuck inside, finally,and already has her CHE switched on for the colder nights. 
She's doing fine.


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## mike taylor (Dec 16, 2015)

To answer the question the op asked ...... No you don't need to oil your tortoise . You can if you would like . But I just don't get why you need it . Or why anyone would read someone's research and take what they say to heart . Research is wrong all the time . I l like the lighting part of his research but the oil part nope no way .


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