# Please ad anything you know about "coiled compact florescent bulbs".



## ZEROPILOT (Feb 1, 2016)

Almost every day it seems that a new member will post about a tortoise with eye issues and we trace it back to coiled compacts. It's easy to "parrot" warnings about these bulbs and warn people. (I'm using myself as the example here.)
I must admit, that I know very little about the actual facts. I have no first hand experience with them. (My torts live outside.) But I would feel neglectful to not warn new members. Especially since it seems that 9 out of 10 of them can trace the issue back to one of those lights.
It is the way that these bulbs concentrate and project the light? The wave length?
And is it just the high powered ones or even the lower wattage units?
Please excuse my lack of light bulb knowledge here. But I think that a lot of us are in the dark as to why exactly and what the issues seem to be.
Thanks in advance for your story of either a tortoise injured by these bulbs or for your explanation or theory of the cause.


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## sibi (Feb 1, 2016)

Well, when I first became a tortoise owner, I bought coil bulbs for the UVA/B. Over a short period of time, I noticed that my two baby sulcatas were having issues with their eyes. They had some discharge coming from their eyes. At first, I thought they had some irritants like the sand I was using in their substrate (I know, that was changed quickly), but it didn't get better after it was changed. Also, the bulb didn't emit enough heat cause it's considered a "cold" light. After 8 months, I joined the forum and changed the lighting. Fortunately, no permanent damage was done,but, there was a scare there for a while. I believe the light waves are too strong for their sensitive eyes. For a more scientific explanation, I'll leave that to the expects. But, from my experience with it, I wouldn't use it ever again on any retile, not only because of the possible damage to eyes, but also it didn't do the job for emitting heat. Mercury vapor bulb does both safely.


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## mike taylor (Feb 1, 2016)

I don't use them personally . But I have seen the effects of them on this forum . Swollen eyes or blind tortoises and bearded dragons . If you do a search someone on here was doing a test on them to prove they are no good . I know @Tom has a lot of first hand experience with this . Maybe we can get @Yvonne G and @Tom to chime in on this .


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## lisa127 (Feb 1, 2016)

I don't think anyone ever expected them to supply heat, just as no one expects tube flourescent to supply heat.


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## Redfoot NERD (Feb 1, 2016)

Maybe we WILL get somewhere with this here .

It can only happen when we actually *READ* what is stated only... and not read anything into it. And be as specific as possible with the statements.

[ Unless and/or until we can get *everybody* to realize that these statements are _not_ truths " Just because one is good.. then 2 must be better or.. just because someone can research or has 'survived' one for a year makes them an authority or EVERY tortoise on the planet has the same needs". - we will have issues with these animals we keep in captivity. ALL PRE-CONCEIVED NOTIONS OR IDEAS WILL HARM OR KILL OUR TORTOISES. ]

As stated.. former 10.0 UVB.. it is a 26 watt -





5.0 UVB 13 Watt -





10.0 UVB 13 Watt -






My experience is with the* lowest* wattage made ( 13 watt and 26 watt. ) The 5.0 13 watt is over yearling or less diamondback terrapins about 6 inches from the basking area. The 10.0 13 Watt is over the yearling + terrapins. The two 26 watt are over the Ornate terrapin adults about 6 inches from the basking area. These are serious Southern Florida "basking" water turtles that require high UVB intake from sun... NOT diet.

The redfoot ADULTS have one old 26 Watt maybe 15 inches from surface. In the 18 + years of keeping .carbonaria - from hatchlings to 12 year captive adults - I'm yet to see them "bask".. inside or out. The ONLY reason I have ANY lights in their indoor enclosure is so they can see the food. The ONLY time I've seen them under the light [ other than eating ] is when the temps are too low for them. I suspect they think they are going to warm up under the light. Even tho' this is shear speculation.. I suspect if a redfoot is out basking most of the time is because the ambient temps are low.. OR that light is their heat source

Maybe there is something about these MVB [ other than heat ] that invites them to bask... I have no experience with them.

Again I like the "coil" because of the LOW wattage and convenient 'screw-in' design. For the first 25+ years of keeping water turtles and tortoises from most of the different continents / terrain.. swamp.. forrest.. savannah and desert I used the Reptisun 'strip- flor' lamps.

This is the second season using the 'coil' inside. No issues...


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## Redfoot NERD (Feb 1, 2016)

mike taylor said:


> I don't use them personally . But I have seen the effects of them on this forum . Swollen eyes or blind tortoises and bearded dragons . If you do a search someone on here was doing a test on them to prove they are no good . I know @Tom has a lot of first hand experience with this . Maybe we can get @Yvonne G and @Tom to chime in on this .



Tom keeps sulcata.. and has stated that if no issues personally then don't be concerned. Common sense?

AGAIN.. we have to keep this in focus! What wattage are these keepers frying those bearded dragons and tortoises eyes out with???

*READ* the instructions folks!!!!!


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## Kori5 (Feb 1, 2016)

I had it for a month. It wasn't until I posted a picture of my enclosure and you @ZEROPILOT asked me if I have a coil bulb. I searched the net and realised I have. I thought I got one of the best uv bulbs on the market. Well, my tortoise wouldn't bask and his eyes were swollen. I replaced it as soon as possible and got a uv tube instead. Now he basks normally and is such a happy little tortoise. Thank you for saving his eyesight .


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## Anyfoot (Feb 1, 2016)

Kori5 said:


> I had it for a month. It wasn't until I posted a picture of my enclosure and you @ZEROPILOT asked me if I have a coil bulb. I searched the net and realised I have. I thought I got one of the best uv bulbs on the market. Well, my tortoise wouldn't bask and his eyes were swollen. I replaced it as soon as possible and got a uv tube instead. Now he basks normally and is such a happy little tortoise. Thank you for saving his eyesight .


 Can you remember exactly what coil bulb it was?


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## wellington (Feb 1, 2016)

I have never used them and won't. I will not risk my animals eyes/sight to save a few bucks. My only experience with them is only what I have seen on this forum to others tortoises that did use them. I don't need hard core let's prove it myself to learn what is good and what isn't.
Some don't have problems with them. I'm glad for them. I'm not willing to risk my torts to find out if they are lucky or not


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## Kori5 (Feb 1, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> Can you remember exactly what coil bulb it was?


Yes it was this one.


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## Redfoot NERD (Feb 1, 2016)

Kori5 said:


> I had it for a month. It wasn't until I posted a picture of my enclosure and you @ZEROPILOT asked me if I have a coil bulb. I searched the net and realised I have. I thought I got one of the best uv bulbs on the market. Well, my tortoise wouldn't bask and his eyes were swollen. I replaced it as soon as possible and got a uv tube instead. Now he basks normally and is such a happy little tortoise. Thank you for saving his eyesight .



Kori5 you need to tell us the age and species and where and how close to the substrate you had it. 

IF it was a little one 3" or less.. and IF you had the bulb LESS THAN 18" from the substrate surface .. and especially IF it was a forest-type tortoise - then I would like to strangle the person who advised you to use that bulb! That bulb is an extremely bright bulb that is designed for 'desert-type' enclosures.. quite a distance from any reptile in it. 

Strip-type flor. bulbs are very "low-light".


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## Markw84 (Feb 1, 2016)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Almost every day it seems that a new member will post about a tortoise with eye issues and we trace it back to coiled compacts. It's easy to "parrot" warnings about these bulbs and warn people. (I'm using myself as the example here.)
> I must admit, that I know very little about the actual facts. I have no first hand experience with them. (My torts live outside.) But I would feel neglectful to not warn new members. Especially since it seems that 9 out of 10 of them can trace the issue back to one of those lights.
> It is the way that these bulbs concentrate and project the light? The wave length?
> And is it just the high powered ones or even the lower wattage units?
> ...


Will try not to sound too technical, but since you asked, I do think for those interested it is worth discussing.

As I have come to understand the issue, it seems to come down to the way fluorescent UV bulbs are made, and what wavelength of UVB is being produced. 

We want UV that can stimulate the production of D3. This has been identified as UV from about 265 - 315nm in wavelength. But that is a bell curve with a sharp peak of effective area. The main area of peak effect is the 295-300nm range. Much below 295 becomes extremely damaging.

Our atmosphere eliminates all UV from the sun below 290nm - so natural sunlight even in the most intense area on earth still does not contain UV below290 - 295. But at the short wavelengths of peak bioactivity (295-300nm) the percentage of sunlight is extremely small even though we all see very intense light. So, we are all now used to hearing about the solar index used to warn you on most weather reports of the sun's intensity as an indicator of the need for sunblock and care to avoid sunburn, etc. That's a reading designed to indicate the amount of 295-310nm wavelength, not the intensity of all the light. So this is really what we are interested as the strength we need to control for d3 producing UV. Most basking reptiles even of the most sun-loving types will not bask when that solar index is above about 6 or 7. Here in N Calif mid summer can see a solar radiation index as high as 10 mid day. On the equator you can find a max of about 14 mid day. No place on earth ever reaches above 16-17. Some reptile bulbs were measured at over 30 at a distance of 6".

The wavelength of light a fluorescent produces is controlled by the type of glass used in the tube and the type phosphor used to coat the inside of the tube. Many of the manufacturers of these tubes used a "phototherapy" phosphor in these tubes which emits UVB weighted towards the shorter end of the UVB spectrum than normal sunlight - as low as 270nm. Some also use what is referred to as an "FS" phosphor. This is normally used in bulbs designed to test the UV durability of products to magnify the effects - also as low as 270nm. In fact, they produce some of the UVB in wavelengths shorter than occurs in natural sunlight anywhere on earth. Phototherapy fluorescents are used to kill cells in certain experiments and treatments. So we know the short wavelength UVB Is very dangerous. Some reptile UVB bulbs, on the other hand are manufactured using the type phosphor used in tanning bulb - which do not emit any of that UVB that is "non-solar" or below 295nm. But the spectrum is weighted much more heavily towards the lower wavelengths than sunlight.

So all of the reptile UVB lights emit a much different light than our tortoises would find in nature. It is not a bright and it has proportionally much more UVB than natural light of the same intensity. The addition of a reflective hood will intensify this effect even more. If you do not carefully adjust the proper minimum distances you tortoise can get to the light all UVB lights become dangerous. MVB bulbs in particular emit very high levels, but also an intense heat that help the tortoise know when he's had "enough". Fluorescents don't emit that heat, so if not adjacent to a heat source they are more likely to overexpose if too close. Tube fluorescents or coil type! The issue with coil type seems to be that reflective hoods really compound the effect. With a straight tube - the light and UVB is spread over a wider area per the sq inches of tube producing UV. While a compact fluorescent with its coils or loops concentrates a lot of sq inches in a much smaller space. When that is put in a reflective hood, the light and therefore UVB is disproportionately directed in a very concentrated area. In one test I saw, a Zoo Med 10.0 compact in a reflective hood was actually producing an index reading of 20 at 12" below the tube. That's probably 4 - 5 times the intensity a sulcata would normally bask in in nature - WITHOUT the heat of the sun giving exposure clues.

Many manufactures say have changed the way they produce these fluorescent bulbs trying to limit the under 295nm wavelengths and it seems most have. However, even at the needed 295 - 315nm wavelength needed for D3 you must be very careful about minimum access distances. And is there a heat source stimulating basking cues to start and stop? Type of reflector used, etc, etc. The age of the bulb as we all talk about a lot is also key. A 6 month old bulb puts out maybe 50 - 60% as much UVB as it did when new.

I would tend to bet a large majority of the problems can be traced to the intensity and placement of the light with the newer tubs now available. And they are even making stronger, and stronger high intensity bulbs now even if they have less to no under 290nm emitted. It still is a question of quantity over time.

So, if we have to use an artificial UVB source what do we do? For me - An investment in a solar meter to watch your reading is really the best bet. NO matter what type light you use. Actually the type that measures solar index not light intensity because it is the best way to gauge the amount of UVB emitted, not total light.

I am really not an expert, so these are just my thoughts as to where I am on this subject. But it has been as result of quite a lot of research.


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## Redfoot NERD (Feb 1, 2016)

Thank you Mark.. so that's another way of saying in layman's terms.. 'coils can be too intense when used incorrectly'?


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## Markw84 (Feb 1, 2016)

Yes. You are correct - proper use and placement. However, MVB and tubes with greater and greater intensities need caution just as much. Coils and loops do concentrate the UVB production over a smaller area.


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## Maggie Cummings (Feb 1, 2016)

Alright...this ain't no parrot. I had 3 yearling Sulcata tortoises when I moved here to the PNW. I used Repti Glo. Over a short period of time all 3 had runny eyes, not eating, lethargic, etc. I started putting Terramycin eye ointment in 3 times a day. About that time I adopted out one of the 3, within 48 hours his eyes were almost fine. I adopted out #2 but he was already blind in one eye. I do not know how he is now. This was 6 or 7 years ago. Tony Stewart (#3) had terrible problems with his eyes. I of course got rid of the bulb, but his eyes were flame red and hurt him so bad he would mew and drool. He'd rub those sore eyes on his thorny legs. He hurt so bad it would make me cry. I put used tea bags on his eyes, gave him shots of Metacam for the pain. And the Terramycin. This went on for months. Mucho bucks at the Vet and we did everything we could think of to do. The light was too close and pointing straight down. That was the initial problem. I wish I still had the link that explained the whole problem. Bet Cameron has it.
He was blind when he found his forever home. And in my defense, those bulbs were not known to cause trouble yet, I was among the forefront of the badness, I think.
But it is/was my personal experience those bulbs are trouble and I will never use one again. I actually blinded a tortoise, think about it. Ya want to believe me or not, go ahead take a chance on your torts sight. Try those cheap a** bulbs. See how it looks like the bulb is supposed to hang straight down, it's on the freakin box that way. But they need to be horizontal. Anyway, that's my story. It was a horrible experience for me, but poor Tony was in serious pain and lost his sight


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## Kori5 (Feb 1, 2016)

I have an adult Hermanni tortoise, 20 years old . And of course it was placed on the right height, I've read their manual and placed it on the heigh they recommended. It was 45 cm measured from the top of his shell. As soon as I got rid of it, his eyes returned back to normal . So that is my evidence and I would never ever again buy that crap.


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## Redfoot NERD (Feb 1, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> Yes. You are correct - proper use and placement. However, MVB and tubes with greater and greater intensities need caution just as much. Coils and loops do concentrate the UVB production over a smaller area.




Seems like I've heard this ( typed this ) before Mark! An example of the error ... " Just because one is good.. then 2 must be better..."!!! Trying to make it better by intensifying the effort?

I'll always remember about the guy that told me about burning a brush pile after he poured about a gallon of gasoline on it before lighting it - when he did.. it blew up in his face!!! He told me he will never use gasoline to start a fire again. He blamed it on the gasoline! 

I'm certainly not suggesting using gasoline to start a fire - just know what you're dealing with when we use anything!!!


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## Markw84 (Feb 1, 2016)

Kori and Maggie: Thanks so much for your personal experience and input here. That's what I was hoping from when I saw this thread. A mixture of information and personal experiences not just "I heard you shouldn't use those".

The problem as Terry suggests is trying to separate the emotion of the experience and look at all the possible contributing factors.

There was a problem 5-8 years ago with the very manufacturing as they were emitting some actual UVC. But even with that corrected do we still have a problem beyond placement. For example, the recommended height now posted on all the bulbs by the better manufacturers who have worked on this problem is still given without consideration for placing the bulb in a reflective hood - which can at least double the UVB at a given distance. Is that causing or contributing to some of this? If so, how will it then apply to MVB and HO (high output) tubes and now metal halide?? Is MVB really the better choice because it is safer UVB? Or is it perhaps that MVB emits the heat that tells the tortoise he's had enough? Are tubes really safer UVB or is it that they distribute the UVB over a wider area and the basking light we also include it that case is only getting a portion of the effective UVB emitted. With a coil or loop, as intense as it is, we often put the basking light (heat) immediately next to it so the concentrated, intense UVB is given in much greater doses over the same amount of time?

I think one of our goals on the forum is to explore and learn from our experiences held against the more "testable" knowledge. To further our understanding of husbandry practices that is repeatable, and we can share with others to avoid the mistakes we learn from. I know as painful as some of my mistakes have been over the years with my tortoises, to not really learn from them and find the cause so it might be eliminated in the future would be worse for me.

I think the best example of this is Tom's great work with pyramiding and humidity. Instead of simply yielding to so many stories of respiratory problems they associated with high humidity for a "desert" species, he had to separate the humidity itself from the equation as see if there were other things contributing to the Respiratory issues that could be fixed. The humidity itself was not the problem despite the countless stories and experiences of how bad it was. In fact - there was tremendous value to the humidity.


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## sibi (Feb 1, 2016)

lisa127 said:


> I don't think anyone ever expected them to supply heat, just as no one expects tube flourescent to supply heat.



Yes, but why invest in coil or florescent bulbs when you can get a mercury vapor bulb that provides BOTH heat and UV?


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## sibi (Feb 1, 2016)

Redfoot NERD said:


> Seems like I've heard this ( typed this ) before Mark! An example of the error ... " Just because one is good.. then 2 must be better..."!!! Trying to make it better by intensifying the effort?
> 
> I'll always remember about the guy that told me about burning a brush pile after he poured about a gallon of gasoline on it before lighting it - when he did.. it blew up in his face!!! He told me he will never use gasoline to start a fire again. He blamed it on the gasoline!
> 
> I'm certainly not suggesting using gasoline to start a fire - just know what you're dealing with when we use anything!!!



You know, Mister, if you prefer the coil bulbs for your creatures, then, you take the risks. But, to blame the owners because they aren't knowledgeable about the functionality of light waves and distances it should be places in an enclosure, even if they followed the manufacture's instruction, is just plain wrong! I'd swear you have stocks with the manufacturer's product! I, and many others here had experiences bad stuff with coil bulbs. And, you, in a sense, are invalidating our experiences because you take issue with our complaints about this type of bulb. You said it yourself; you're not expert. So, let's just leave it at that. 

Now Mark, on the.other hand, makes an objective argument concerning the use of coil bulbs. Yes, owners should be careful, but not everyone has a mastery on lengths of lightwaves and intensities, and min.-max nm emitting. Some of us just want the best for our animals. If we are told, you should get this, and you need that, I for one will do some research and determine what works for me and my animals. But, if at pet stores , the only bulbs they have are these coil ones, how can you blame an owner if he gets one and it hurts their animal's eyes? Thank God for this forum!!! There are many here that had bad experiences with these bulbs, myself included, and I object to you blaming the owners. I've said my piece.


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## lisa127 (Feb 1, 2016)

sibi said:


> Yes, but why invest in coil or florescent bulbs when you can get a mercury vapor bulb that provides BOTH heat and UV?


I prefer long tube uvb myself.


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## sibi (Feb 1, 2016)

lisa127 said:


> I prefer long tube uvb myself.


Good. I guess you don't need the heat. I have tropical creatures that need heat, and so MVB work best, in my opinion


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## lisa127 (Feb 1, 2016)

sibi said:


> Good. I guess you don't need the heat. I have tropical creatures that need heat, and so MVB work best, in my opinion


I provide heat. Why wouldn't i? That's a strange thing to say. Since when is that the only way to provide heat?


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## W Shaw (Feb 1, 2016)

Redfoot NERD said:


> Thank you Mark.. so that's another way of saying in layman's terms.. 'coils can be too intense when used incorrectly'?



That's what a herpetologist told me also -- that a placing a coil bulb at the same distance you would place a long tube would result in sunburned eyes, so if you use them, they need to be placed a little higher. A lot of folks have had bad experiences with the coils. Is that because they placed them too close? I don't know. I'm still new to the whole ectothermic thing.

As for the mercury vapor -- I tried one and hated it. It wasn't reliable -- kept turning itself off, despite being in a special fixture designed to prevent overheating. Also I bought it so I could have heat and UVB in one bulb, but the MVB produced half the heat that his usual heat lamp did so I had to have both anyhow. Unreliable, potentially dangerous, and expensive. Just wasn't worth it.


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## Markw84 (Feb 1, 2016)

I don't think a lot of people remember or know that some of the tube type bulbs also created the same health problems. In fact one of the worst test results was from a long tube type.


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## mike taylor (Feb 1, 2016)

Redfoot NERD said:


> Tom keeps sulcata.. and has stated that if no issues personally then don't be concerned. Common sense?
> 
> AGAIN.. we have to keep this in focus! What wattage are these keepers frying those bearded dragons and tortoises eyes out with???
> 
> *READ* the instructions folks!!!!!


Why are you pointing your fingers at me ? I also have sulcatas ,red foots ,leopards ,red ear sliders ,and snapping turtles . I don't use them because I'm not willingly risking my animals health when others have found they give tortoises eye problems . I don't think risking blinding my animals is worth saving a buck . Common sense ? There's already been a whole thread on this . How many times are we going to kick a dead horse ? I will never use these lamps or tell someone to. Please stop aiming your rants at me . If you want to use them fine with me . It's very disappointing that you'd give new members pointers on these lamps knowing some keepers have had issues . I personally think these lamps aim to much uvb I one spot . I don't know this to be fact just a guess . I'm not going to test these lamps on my animals . That's just me . Sorry if I angered you about this . You can do whatever you want .


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## sibi (Feb 1, 2016)

lisa127 said:


> I provide heat. Why wouldn't i? That's a strange thing to say. Since when is that the only way to provide heat?



I didn't say that MVB is the only way to provide heat. I'm saying that the florescent bulbs don't provide heat which I need for my animals. Since you said you "prefer florescent" long bulbs which doesn't provide heat, it may be that you don't need it. Look, let's not parse words. I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm simply stating, that for me, it makes money sense to buy one bulb that has dual purpose: UV and heat. I have nothing against the full spectrum florescent bulbs which, btw, I use for my aquatic turtle. It works great for my tank. But, for my tortoises, MVB work best. It's just my preference. Don't read more into my comments than what's written. I apologize if you were offended in any way.


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## lisa127 (Feb 1, 2016)

sibi said:


> I didn't say that MVB is the only way to provide heat. I'm saying that the florescent bulbs don't provide heat which I need for my animals. Since you said you "prefer florescent" long bulbs which doesn't provide heat, it may be that you don't need it. Look, let's not parse words. I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm simply stating, that for me, it makes money sense to buy one bulb that has dual purpose: UV and heat. I have nothing against the full spectrum florescent bulbs which, btw, I use for my aquatic turtle. It works great for my tank. But, for my tortoises, MVB work best. It's just my preference. Don't read more into my comments than what's written. I apologize if you were offended in any way.


I wasn't offended....I found the comment strange.


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## sibi (Feb 1, 2016)

lisa127 said:


> I wasn't offended....I found the comment strange.



Okay. I hope you understand what I said now


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## lisa127 (Feb 1, 2016)

sibi said:


> Okay. I hope you understand what I said now


Well i think just like I prefer tubes and flood bulbs for heat.....you prefer mvb. Simply that, right?

I keep box turtles, a redfoot, and a sulcata and use tubes and heat bulbs/flood lights for all. Just different strengths.


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## sibi (Feb 1, 2016)

W Shaw said:


> That's what a herpetologist told me also -- that a placing a coil bulb at the same distance you would place a long tube would result in sunburned eyes, so if you use them, they need to be placed a little higher. A lot of folks have had bad experiences with the coils. Is that because they placed them too close? I don't know. I'm still new to the whole ectothermic thing.
> 
> As for the mercury vapor -- I tried one and hated it. It wasn't reliable -- kept turning itself off, despite being in a special fixture designed to prevent overheating. Also I bought it so I could have heat and UVB in one bulb, but the MVB produced half the heat that his usual heat lamp did so I had to have both anyhow. Unreliable, potentially dangerous, and expensive. Just wasn't worth it.



LOL I know what you mean. At first, when I first used a MVB, it kept turning itself off. Then I read that it has a safety mechanism built in it that everytime it goes out or you turn it off, it takes about 15 minutes for it to turn back on. But, once you know this, it can be great. Expensive? You bet! Worth it? Yes, in my opinion


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## sibi (Feb 1, 2016)

lisa127 said:


> Well i think just like I prefer tubes and flood bulbs for heat.....you prefer mvb. Simply that, right?
> 
> I keep box turtles, a redfoot, and a sulcata and use tubes and heat bulbs/flood lights for all. Just different strengths.



Yep, you got it!


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## mike taylor (Feb 1, 2016)

Well I did a search with key words ( eye problems ) I'd suggest anyone wanting to use one of these lamps take a look and judge for yourself .


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## sibi (Feb 1, 2016)

lisa127 said:


> Well i think just like I prefer tubes and flood bulbs for heat.....you prefer mvb. Simply that, right?
> 
> I keep box turtles, a redfoot, and a sulcata and use tubes and heat bulbs/flood lights for all. Just different strengths.



Hey, you keep box turtles. Maybe you can help me out. I'll pm you. Don't want to hijack this thread.


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## W Shaw (Feb 1, 2016)

sibi said:


> LOL I know what you mean. At first, when I first used a MVB, it kept turning itself off. Then I read that it has a safety mechanism built in it that everytime it goes out or you turn it off, it takes about 15 minutes for it to turn back on. But, once you know this, it can be great. Expensive? You bet! Worth it? Yes, in my opinion



Yeah, I read that when I got mine, but I'm away at work all day, and live in a cold climate. If I could be home all day and turn it back on it might be different. I was worried about it going out and not coming back on, and me not finding out until 10 hours later that he'd been without heat and light all day.


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## sibi (Feb 1, 2016)

W Shaw said:


> Yeah, I read that when I got mine, but I'm away at work all day, and live in a cold climate. If I could be home all day and turn it back on it might be different. I was worried about it going out and not coming back on, and me not finding out until 10 hours later that he'd been without heat and light all day.


If the light was on when you left for work, and it happens to go out, it will go back on by itself. That much I know cause it happens often here in the terrarium I have. The light just goes back on by itself after short blackout.


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## Redfoot NERD (Feb 1, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> Kori and Maggie: Thanks so much for your personal experience and input here. That's what I was hoping from when I saw this thread. A mixture of information and personal experiences not just "I heard you shouldn't use those".
> 
> The problem as Terry suggests is trying to separate the emotion of the experience and look at all the possible contributing factors.
> 
> ...


*
"....trying to separate the emotion of the experience and look at all the possible contributing factors."* MARK!.. who writes your stuff? - that has to be one of the absolute best observations and statements I've read on this forum since I joined over 8 years ago!!! 

PLUS your statement about what Tom has done with his studies on pyramiding and humidity - he didn't read or listen to all their worthless chatter.. he put it into action.. hands on! [ in no way do I take credit for any of that ] I recall speaking with Tom on the phone about pyramiding and humidity.. and comparing his "desert" tortoises and my "edge-of-rain-forest" tortoises.. and he ran with it. We both gained a lot from those few brief conversations.

Sometimes the/my written word is taken incorrectly and does spur that emotion - the enemy of objective thinking...


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## Turtlepete (Feb 1, 2016)

Redfoot NERD said:


> The redfoot ADULTS have one old 26 Watt maybe 15 inches from surface. In the 18 + years of keeping .carbonaria - from hatchlings to 12 year captive adults - I'm yet to see them "bask".. inside or out. The ONLY reason I have ANY lights in their indoor enclosure is so they can see the food. The ONLY time I've seen them under the light [ other than eating ] is when the temps are too low for them. I suspect they think they are going to warm up under the light. Even tho' this is shear speculation.. I suspect if a redfoot is out basking most of the time is because the ambient temps are low.. OR that light is their heat source
> .



Terry,
I breed reds as well. My hatchlings regularly bask under heat lamps I provide, and the ambient temp hovers around 82. Just an interesting note to compare.

It's late, so I'm going to abandon any attempt at eloquence….

As far as "coil" bulbs, I've always used these below, which seem to constantly be on the "no-good list". I have NEVER observed anything out of the ordinary, and I've raised a LOT of animals under these. Probably 3-4 years worth of redfoot offspring, box turtles of various species, iguanas, etc.. I haven't had a single issue in probably 10-15 bulbs.
What does this tell me? Bulbs do not harm the tortoises 10/10 times. We can all agree on that, yes? So then, the "harmful" bulbs must be defective. I do recall there being a manufacturing error (I believe it was mentioned here on t make these bulbs harmful, but I believe that was corrected.Such defects can occur IN ANY SINGLE PRODUCT. Heater malfunctions, cooling system malfunctions, heating pads, any kinds of lighting…there is an innumerable amount of products prone to possible defects that have resulted in the death of animals. The same goes for human products; have you any idea how many humans are killed annually by malfunctioning toasters? Yet I still use a toaster to toast my bread in the morning.
If we were to avoid every single one of those, we would run out of products to use for our animals. It's rather illogical to treat something as the plague based on the anecdotes of a couple members.





I suspect that the issues observed can more often then not be chalked up to misuse, as are most things…something like a 10.0 bulb meant for desert species being placed 8 inches a way from a tortoise. ZooMed provides diagrams and usage instructions for these things for a reason.

This is yet another case where people must learn to think independently. I'm not saying don't take advise, and if someone advises you that something is harmful to your tortoise, it is wise to use caution, but also wise to put the effort into researching the matter yourself, and ALWAYS look outside the community that information came from.


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## W Shaw (Feb 1, 2016)

sibi said:


> If the light was on when you left for work, and it happens to go out, it will go back on by itself. That much I know cause it happens often here in the terrarium I have. The light just goes back on by itself after short blackout.


Gotcha. Thanks!


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## Anyfoot (Feb 2, 2016)

sibi said:


> Yes, but why invest in coil or florescent bulbs when you can get a mercury vapor bulb that provides BOTH heat and UV?


An mvb provides a good bright light, uvb and a basking spot all in one. For some species this is ideal, for some species that prefer low light and require no basking spot it is not. I had an mvb in for about a month when I first started with reds, they hid away. I changed to a CHE and an 18w fluorescent (also a created dappled shade with the fluorescent) and they stopped hiding.


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## ZEROPILOT (Feb 2, 2016)

If it were as simple as a case of MIS USE in most cases (And maybe it is) It may still be easier and best to suggest to the new members who do seem to be in most cases harming their tortoises eyes to discontinue the use as a lot of us have been suggesting. Instead of suggesting that they try to modify their straight down pointing fixtures or the tops of their cages. (In most cases, a fish tank) Who will be the one to tell them at what angle and height would be "safe"? And what would you say if their animal is still harmed?
While we can't agree that it is the bulb that is dangerous, it could also be the way that they are used? That still makes them dangerous and harmful and I'm still leaning towards just suggesting that new owners not use them at all. At least until they get a little more experience. Most of these new members have multiple issues right away. I feel obligated to at least try to help with the most blatant things that i see that are or could be an issue when they are desperately seeking help with an ill tortoise. And it's ALARMING how often eye issues come back to a CFL.
We have first hand experiences with seasoned keepers that both HAVE and HAVE NOT had issues. We also have long term keepers such as myself that have never used these bulbs but want to be helpful. What is the most responsible thing to tell them, then?


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## Maggie Cummings (Feb 2, 2016)

OK....NERD....There are no directions on this box. I had the light pointed vertically, just like the picture. There were no directions in or on the box. So my light was pointed straight down. Remember, this was 5 to 8 yrs ago on the box it's in 10 different languages and all it reads is...."good within 20". The light was at 15".
My family has had tortoises for about 35 or 40 years. We are both experienced keepers, my sister more so. I am positive there are more experts who simply don't post. DeanS is one who comes to mind, Anthony P is another one.
Now, Tom is no god. There are 37 thousand members on this forum. He's done great things for tortoises, he's very intelligent, and I like him. BUT, he is not the be all end all of tortoises. There are many experts on this forum and to keep pointing Tom out to newbies, makes them think this is Tom's forum not TFO. I'm sorry, Tom. I have nothing against you, and heaven knows you have done great things for torts, have good advice, and knowledge. I don't give much advice anymore because of a disease I have, so I mainly I am not talking about me. But there's so many other people out there with information we've not heard yet. I'm sorry Tom, I suppose you'll be mad now, but there's so much more knowledge out there, that I believe we need to hear.

Now I'll put the rest of my feet in my mouth, NERD, I'm with Sibi. To say to someone like me that I didn't follow instructions???? Who the hell do you think you are? Yes, I',m mad. You have no clue what I tried to do for those yearlings. Remember, we didn't know then it was the lights. You have information now that we didn't have then. I did everything that 2 Vets and I could think of. Yes, I blinded a yearling Sulcata, and diminished the sight on another. But for you to make an uneducated GUESS as to what we did to hurt those torts is crap. I will carry his blindness with me the few years I have left, but I am not going to allow someone like you to make me feel guilty. You know nothing about the situation, AND....I personally left most of my emotions out of my story. Just the facts.

Now I know I will get in trouble for what I have said. So I will say now, I am thru with this subject, I will not respond anymore.
Tom, you have my number, call if you want to know why I said what I did.
Ed....no, always, say don't use them, that's my experience and advice.


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## ZEROPILOT (Feb 2, 2016)

I don't think that anyone will be offended by your post, Maggie. You say things like you feel them. Everyone here is in a position to defend and validate what they believe to be correct. We all have a lot of passion here. We are also all here to learn and to help others.
The fact is that your tortoises were harmed by these lamps and others tortoises were not.
I haven't heard anything here to make me feel that I can report them as being safe, at least not in general or without modification to the standard hoods, etc. So, I am going to continue to warm against the use of them until a simple explanation and cure can be formulated that is simple for new keepers.
Other members can ad that they use them without issue, but I still feel that that may be a poor idea.


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## lisa127 (Feb 2, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> OK....NERD....There are no directions on this box. I had the light pointed vertically, just like the picture. There were no directions in or on the box. So my light was pointed straight down. Remember, this was 5 to 8 yrs ago on the box it's in 10 different languages and all it reads is...."good within 20". The light was at 15".
> My family has had tortoises for about 35 or 40 years. We are both experienced keepers, my sister more so. I am positive there are more experts who simply don't post. DeanS is one who comes to mind, Anthony P is another one.
> Now, Tom is no god. There are 37 thousand members on this forum. He's done great things for tortoises, he's very intelligent, and I like him. BUT, he is not the be all end all of tortoises. There are many experts on this forum and to keep pointing Tom out to newbies, makes them think this is Tom's forum not TFO. I'm sorry, Tom. I have nothing against you, and heaven knows you have done great things for torts, have good advice, and knowledge. I don't give much advice anymore because of a disease I have, so I mainly I am not talking about me. But there's so many other people out there with information we've not heard yet. I'm sorry Tom, I suppose you'll be mad now, but there's so much more knowledge out there, that I believe we need to hear.
> 
> ...


You speak what others think.


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## ZEROPILOT (Feb 2, 2016)

lisa127 said:


> You speak what others think.


Yes she does.
She ads some spice to this place!!


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## sibi (Feb 2, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> An mvb provides a good bright light, uvb and a basking spot all in one. For some species this is ideal, for some species that prefer low light and require no basking spot it is not. I had an mvb in for about a month when I first started with reds, they hid away. I changed to a CHE and an 18w fluorescent (also a created dappled shade with the fluorescent) and they stopped hiding.



You're absolutely right! It all depends on the species of animal you own. My sullies enjoy their light and, at their own choosing, will sit under it. So MVB works very well for my animals; whereas, with other species, lower output of light/heat is preferable. All I say is to use discernment and common sense.


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## sibi (Feb 2, 2016)

Redfoot NERD said:


> *
> "....trying to separate the emotion of the experience and look at all the possible contributing factors."* MARK!.. who writes your stuff? - that has to be one of the absolute best observations and statements I've read on this forum since I joined over 8 years ago!!!
> 
> PLUS your statement about what Tom has done with his studies on pyramiding and humidity - he didn't read or listen to all their worthless chatter.. he put it into action.. hands on! [ in no way do I take credit for any of that ] I recall speaking with Tom on the phone about pyramiding and humidity.. and comparing his "desert" tortoises and my "edge-of-rain-forest" tortoises.. and he ran with it. We both gained a lot from those few brief conversations.
> ...



Objective thinking? Huh...it isn't objective thinking when you blame people for misusing a product that can be potentially dangerous to the sight of their animals. Objective thinking would understand how a customer may "do it wrong." That's why people who may "do it wrong" have lawsuits with products. No...you're far from objective. You're outright condescending! That's your problem.


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## Turtlepete (Feb 2, 2016)

ZEROPILOT said:


> I don't think that anyone will be offended by your post, Maggie. You say things like you feel them. Everyone here is in a position to defend and validate what they believe to be correct. We all have a lot of passion here. We are also all here to learn and to help others.
> The fact is that your tortoises were harmed by these lamps and others tortoises were not.
> I haven't heard anything here to make me feel that I can report them as being safe, at least not in general or without modification to the standard hoods, etc. So, I am going to continue to warm against the use of them until a simple explanation and cure can be formulated that is simple for new keepers.
> Other members can ad that they use them without issue, but I still feel that that may be a poor idea.



I think you have the right idea, Ed. What I was simply trying to explain is that these bulbs are not the plague 10 out of 10 times, and that the damage they've caused was due to an error in manufacturing, not something that will occur in every usage. However, there are tons of other options, and there really is no need or reason to use these bulbs anyways. For newbies, it's perhaps best to steer clear.


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## Redfoot NERD (Feb 2, 2016)

Turtlepete said:


> Terry,
> I breed reds as well. My hatchlings regularly bask under heat lamps I provide, and the ambient temp hovers around 82. Just an interesting note to compare.
> 
> It's late, so I'm going to abandon any attempt at eloquence….
> ...



Couldn't have said it better Pete.... be encouraged to think outside the box gang! 

The Zoo's / Scientists and all these "researchers" need to quit listening to their own head / community and listen to and learn from the breeders of many years! 

You don't want to know how many I've "hurt" over the past *40 years*.. because I listened to them!!! ( so-called experts ) But then look at the 'recent/current' accomplishments by the few of us!


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## sibi (Feb 2, 2016)

Let me just say this for the last time here. IF a product may be defective (and there's no way of knowing til the damage is done), then, how can the bulb NOT be to blame 10/10 out of the time? Listen, it's just worth the risk! If Mr. Nerd, Pete, or others have no problem using this product, they're taking risks with their animals. Sulcatas, I believe, are particularly sensitive to this bulb. Swollen, tearful, irritating eyes are more common than you think when it comes to sulcatas. Unless you've conducted your own studies over a period of years WITH various species using coil bulbs, you're not thinking out of the box; you're thinking out of somewhere else. Many here are just not willing to take the chance of harming our beloved animals. And, as some have correctly concluded, it's best not to encourage newbies to use such bulbs. Yes, they are cheaper to buy, but I think we've shown here, cheaper is not better. Exotic animals, like sulcatas, is not a cheap hobby or undertaking if you want to keep a happy, healthy animal.


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## mike taylor (Feb 2, 2016)

Someone on here was testing these lamps . For the life of me I can't remember who it was . Hopefully he'll see this and post something . I think if there's a 50/50 chance of hurting a tortoises vision I'll say on the safe side and not use them. I do wish they worked like they were meant to . Nerd have you put a uv meter under the ones you use ? Then compared to other lamps of the same rating . I'm wondering what that reading may be . Should we put these lamps in the middle of said enclosures with no hoods around them ? Then set them up on a recycle timer .Say on for an hour then off for an hour . Not to be a smartass but should we build little red sun glasses for our torts like they did for chickens in the sixties ? If your kid had a 50/50 chance of losing their eye sight over these lamps ,would you use them ? Until a study has been made I think we should stay on the safe side .


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## Tom (Feb 2, 2016)

sibi said:


> Yes, but why invest in coil or florescent bulbs when you can get a mercury vapor bulb that provides BOTH heat and UV?



The main reasons I see are that MVBs run too hot for some applications, and they also cost more than some other options.


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## Turtlepete (Feb 2, 2016)

sibi said:


> Let me just say this for the last time here. IF a product may be defective (and there's no way of knowing til the damage is done), then, how can the bulb NOT be to blame 10/10 out of the time? Listen, it's just worth the risk! If Mr. Nerd, Pete, or others have no problem using this product, they're taking risks with their animals. Sulcatas, I believe, are particularly sensitive to this bulb. Swollen, tearful, irritating eyes are more common than you think when it comes to sulcatas. Unless you've conducted your own studies over a period of years WITH various species using coil bulbs, you're not thinking out of the box; you're thinking out of somewhere else. Many here are just not willing to take the chance of harming our beloved animals. And, as some have correctly concluded, it's best not to encourage newbies to use such bulbs. Yes, they are cheaper to buy, but I think we've shown here, cheaper is not better. Exotic animals, like sulcatas, is not a cheap hobby or undertaking if you want to keep a happy, healthy animal.



I think there is a bit of a logical fallacy in suggesting sulcatas are predisposed to damage by these bulbs. My experience with sulcatas is admittedly limited as opposed to SA animals, but they have evolved/adapted/were created/etc. in an environment with much more sun exposure then a redfoot or yellow foot tortoise would occur. It seems a little unreasonable to believe they would therefore be predisposed to damage caused by harmful UV rays. Just a thought.

Furthermore, your assessment of myself, Ed and Terry taking risks using these products is quite simply incorrect. We are always taking risks; heck, I'm taking risks buying food from the grocery store and feeding it to my animals. Food that is stored in open cooling units where everyone who passes by is free to touch it and spread contaminants. What kind of freak contaminants could find their way into my turtles food and cause an epidemic and kill all of my animals? However, it would be rather irrational to assume this is going to happen….It's a POSSIBILITY, yes, but quite a small one. A small possibility doesn't warrant that kind of caution.

Something to think of, everyone: the damage caused by these bulbs was due to a manufacturing error, yes? Now I ask you to consider, what makes other bulbs you use (the suggested $60 MVB's that seem to burn out in 2 months) immune to the possibility of a manufacturing error? They are not. Every time they change the way they make these bulbs, there is a possibility of an error that might cause damage to our animal's eyes. Heck, they might massively overheat or put out way more light then they are supposed to and blind them or cook them to death. We can only hope the manufacturers test them sufficiently to rule out this possibility.

If you don't want to use them, don't use them. If you don't want to recommend people to use them, then don't. I can completely understand your caution; you tried these bulbs and received horrific results! Probably enough to scare anyone away from their use forever. Others, like myself, have been using them for years with no harm. I myself have no reason to discontinue their use. I do however monitor my animals very closely; if I happen to get new bulbs and my tortoises suddenly develop irritated eyes, then I will definitely look to the bulbs and see if that is perhaps the cause.


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## Markw84 (Feb 2, 2016)

When @ZEROPILOT started this post, I took it as a means to discuss and explore experiences and information about these bulbs. I think there is a place for a cooler and less bright source of good UVA/UVB.

In no way do I want any of my comments to be construed as I am suggesting we advise that it is OK to use them. There is a problem and until we know more I would certainly not tell someone else that these coils and loops are the best choice I do however feel that by exploring more, we may be able to help general basking and light requirement practices, since all the actual tests of how the light emitted from artificial UVB bulbs of ALL types show such a different characteristic than natural light. And the problems were not limited to the compact fluorescent type. There were cases that were very troublesome with some of the tube fluorescents as well. So, as troublesome and devastating as these issues are, we HAVE to provide our animals with the proper balance of light, heat, humidity and UVA/UVB and when kept in an artificial environment, then how best to provide that UV?

I AM NOT trying to promote a certain type or brand, but I think we need, and can use, a good source of UV that does not automatically produce extremely bright light and so much heat in some cases. My well insulated enclosure overheats too quickly with MVB. Some forest species may well do much better in a more "shade like" basking spot as they would in nature.

We know this...
Tortoises need D3 to properly utilize calcium.
Herbivorous reptiles cannot get the D3 they need from natural diet.
These reptiles synthesize pre-vitamin D3 in their skin with exposure to UVB, and with proper heat, then convert that to D3
Through this photo-biosynthesis it is impossible to overdose on D3 as extended exposure to UVB breaks down excesses creating a natural balance.
Dietary supplements can easily lead to an overdose of D3.
Tortoises see UVA and possibly even UVB as part of their vision while we cannot.
This extended vision creates cues we cannot see that are important parts of the cues they live by.
What may seem like dark to us, like a "night bulb" looks very different to them.
Some forest dwelling / crepuscular reptiles and tortoises avoid bright light situations but still need UVB (so is MVB best there?)
UVA light creates visual pattern we cannot see that they see and use to identify plants, and additional information about other tortoises and animals.
UVB fluorescents (of all types) emit a far greater percentage of UVB in a much less intense light than a tortoise would ever encounter in nature.
UVB stimulates the production of beta endorphins in humans and probably does so in tortoises as well.
etc, etc, etc

All of us would never dream of evaluating our tortoises' well being without good thermometers, and now, hygrometers as a standard part of any set-up, to tell us of the heat and humidity gradients needed and ensure those requirements are being met. We use that to monitor them daily! Why then, would it not be logical to at least look at the possible effects of providing the proper light and UVA and UVB requirements and gradients. This has certainly the earmarks of being just a important as heat and humidity to allow a tortoise to thrive. Perhaps in a short time we will all value a solar meter just as we now do thermometers and hygrometers.

I started really researching these when they first came out and with the problems that started emerging in the very late 1990's - early 2000's, my particular interest was seeing if perhaps overexposure to UV or unnatural basking situations could have been a contributor to pyramiding. I noticed with all my efforts to grow smooth sulcatas and leopards, once I got mine outside, the growth dramatically smoothed out. So, yes, I became a bit analytical on this stuff. As it turned out, Humidity was the clue that allowed me to grow smooth tortoises, but I never stopped looking a ways to improve the photo periods, light/heat gradients and UV requirements. For most of us, we can allow enough outside time for our tortoises and we let nature manage most of this. But there are times we are forced to house indoors.

So, again, I am not proposing we say these bulbs are OK and recommend them. But they do offer an attractive solution to some of these issues if indeed we find the problem with the post 2007 bulbs is really a function of placement and providing the proper total clues (basking heat, etc.) to allow the tortoise to get the UVB it needs. That is what I hope we could possible learn from experiences. I have never had a problem with the myself and still use them with my aquatic turtle juveniles I keep indoors for the winter. But I never would tell someone else to use them as I am not yet to make that determination for someone else. So I was hoping we could use this thread to investigate just as they did with humidity issues. As people told countless horror stories of how bad humidity damaged their tortoises back in the 80's and 90's, luckily some started to look beyond and ask - with that humidity what was the temperature, the lighting, the availability of water??? And humidity turned out to be hero not the villain. It was a bad combination of factors that cause the problems. Learning the proper combination made all the difference in the world.

I don't think any here would imply that anyone in the 80's and 90's that kept their sulcatas dry was cruel or a 'bad' person or keeper. We were going by the best knowledge generally accepted at the time. We were caring, compassionate keepers trying provide the best for our shelled friends.

I would love to help my tortoises do even better! I would be interested to look at situations where there were definite problems that were linked to these bulbs since I have none of my own. I certainly don't want people to start using the coils so we can see what happens! So we have to look at circumstances that happened especially form the best and most diligent keepers, as they were doing everything right!

SO – if you are willing to share:

What were the symptoms
Did you make a change that cleared it up?
What type bulb were you using?
When was the bulb purchased?
What type hood and reflector was used?
Was it an open or enclosed chamber?
How close to the walls and what color was the wall closest to the bulb?
What was the minimum distance the tortoise could get from the bulb?
What basking behavior did you notice under the bulb?
What was the enclosures temperatures?
What was the enclosure’s humidity? (Humid air dramatically filters UVB)
Was there basking bright light available right next to the UV bulb?
Was there basking heat right next to the UV bulb.
Was there a noticeable light and heat gradient moving away from the bulb?


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## ZEROPILOT (Feb 2, 2016)

That information, compiled and compared could be very helpful.


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## Tom (Feb 2, 2016)

I was trying to NOT get involved in this same discussion yet again, but it seems I need to...

Terry, I fondly remember our old conversations, but that ended promptly when you sided with a weirdo mad man that was attacking me. You may not take credit, and it may not be your invention, buy you ARE the one who told me about spraying the carapaces with water as a means of pyramiding prevention. It works, and I thank you to this day.

Maggie, everything you said was right on the money and I agree with all of it. I'm glad to have all that put in perspective. I'm not mad at all and have no reason to be.

Mark, those were some very good posts and there is some validity to what you said, but...

Pete, I usually agree with you on topics, but not here. I will explain...

To all now,
The problem with these bulbs is that not ALL of them cause this eye problem thing. Do any of you know how to tell which ones will cause the problem and which ones won't? Me neither. But there is no denying the FACT that they frequently DO cause an eye burning problem at lease some percentage of the time. I have seen this problem occur, and sometimes not occur, when these bulbs are used horizontally, vertically, close, far, in a white or aluminum reflector dome, in no dome, through a screen, with heat, without additional heat, etc... So have the reptile vets that I work with.

"Operator error" might account for SOME of the issues seen with these bulbs, but it does not account for all of the issues with these bulbs. One major obstacle is that the equipment and manpower to test these things is very expensive and no one with the finances to fund this research in a lab setting has any interest in discovering exactly what the damage causing mechanism is. It only matters to us individual hobbyists. And since I didn't win the 1.5 billion powerball the other day, we won't be finding out anytime soon. So where does that leave us? All sorts of plausible theories have been elaborated upon, but no studies to prove or disprove them.

Pete and Terry, now back to you two,
I'm thrilled that you two have been using these bulbs successfully without encountering these problems, but lets be realistic. Millions of those bulbs have been sold and not all of them cause this issue. What percentage of them do cause this issue? I don't know, but I'm glad to hear you've avoided the problem ones so far. Keep using them and eventually you'll get a bad one and come to the realization that I came to a long time ago that this issue is not just operator error, or due to a lack of instruction following.

While any bulb can be misused or malfunction, I do NOT see these problems with florescent tubes or MVBs. Now I'm sure Cameron the master Internet researcher can go find 15 links to MVB problems, but we do not see these problems here on TFO, I don't see them at any of the reptile compounds that I frequent, and the reptile vets I work with don't reprogram these problems to me.

One sentiment Mark touched on that I whole heatedly agree with is that EVERYONE using any sort of indoor UV producing bulb should have and frequently use a good UV index meter. This is ESPECIALLY true of people living in the frozen climates around the world that depend upon artificial UV for many months of every year. However, I'm not sure that these meters will detect whatever the problem is with these coil bulbs because they only measure the UV wavelength needed for D3 production, and not anything else, like UVC or bulb intensity for example.

Is this anecdotal? Yes. Yes it is. So is all of my evidence that simulating the monsoon season prevents pyramiding in many species of tortoise, but most people believe that because they see the evidence and results right in front of their face over and over again. Same story with these bulbs.


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## Tom (Feb 2, 2016)

Turtlepete said:


> I think there is a bit of a logical fallacy in suggesting sulcatas are predisposed to damage by these bulbs. My experience with sulcatas is admittedly limited as opposed to SA animals, but they have evolved/adapted/were created/etc. in an environment with much more sun exposure then a redfoot or yellow foot tortoise would occur. It seems a little unreasonable to believe they would therefore be predisposed to damage caused by harmful UV rays. Just a thought.



Pete, I love conversing with you, so don't take this as an attack of any kind. Just discussing the matter in a civil tone here, and enjoying the discussion.

I think this is seen more with sulcatas simply because there are more sulcatas out there in the world than any other species. Another contributing factor is that since sulcatas are cheaper, the people who buy them, might be more inclined to buy cheaper lighting and UV options.

Also, I think you may be suffering from a logical fallacy that many people succumb to about sulcatas. Yes sulcatas come from a hot sunny place, but they spend 95-98% of their lives underground and out of the sun. It is very likely, given this fact that your RFs see more sun in the wild than a wild sulcata would, albeit dappled sun...


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## Markw84 (Feb 2, 2016)

I ran across this a few years back and have been checking back periodically to see how the updates go. These guys are taking the time and effort to do the bench tests and they did them with what were out back in 2004 to get the manufacturer's attention.

http://uvguide.co.uk/index.htm


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## Tom (Feb 2, 2016)

Mark, I will send you links each time a new keeper comes here reporting eye problems under one of these bulbs. If you can get them to answer your list of questions, we might, hopefully, begin to see a pattern.

If someone would care to spend the time, I will bet a lot of old posts highlighting this issue could be found, and members contacted to try to get answers to these questions from previously seen cases.


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## jaizei (Feb 2, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> I ran across this a few years back and have been checking back periodically to see how the updates go. These guys are taking the time and effort to do the bench tests and they did them with what were out back in 2004 to get the manufacturer's attention.
> 
> http://uvguide.co.uk/index.htm



Try https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/uvb_meter_owners/info for more current information.


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## Maggie Cummings (Feb 2, 2016)

The link that Markw84 found is the same one that was all we seemed to have access to in 2007. And, it doesn't look any different. Ever been updated?


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## Daveypryme (Feb 2, 2016)

I have used the coil bulb on my red eared slider since I got him 10 years ago as a hatchling. I didn't know the risks so I never thought to buy a different bulb. I have never had a problem with my turtle having any eye issues. The light has always been above is turtle dock about 12" high. He is almost 8 inches long,He looks great. I discovered the risks after I decided to buy a tortoise and joined this forum for help. I still use the bulb for my turtle but not for my tortoise I use the mvb for my tortoise. Mainly because of all the stories I have heard, and not wanting to risk it happening to my tortoise. Since my res has never had issues I haven't seen the reason to change bulbs.


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## Redfoot NERD (Feb 2, 2016)

Tom said:


> I was trying to NOT get involved in this same discussion yet again, but it seems I need to...
> 
> Terry, I fondly remember our old conversations, but that ended promptly when you sided with a weirdo mad man that was attacking me. You may not take credit, and it may not be your invention, buy you ARE the one who told me about spraying the carapaces with water as a means of pyramiding prevention. It works, and I thank you to this day.
> 
> ...



You are most welcome Tom! Thank you. You may recall during our conversations about my speaking with the sulcata legion Richard Fife.. when he first started his studies on pyramiding of redfoot tortoises. He learned that raising ambient humidity by spraying their carapaces was the solution!

* I wondered why our discussions ended.. will you email me please and tell me who that weirdo mad man was? [ don't know how email works here ] - [email protected] *

And YES most have no clue that sulcata spend MOST of their time OUT OF the blazing sun. And what do they do other than sleep there? - urinate and defecate - hmmmm would that be a source of ambient humidity???

Please realize everyone.. it IS vital that ALL basking tortoises have an area where they can be in the shade OUTSIDE of their 'humid' hide!!!

AND please realize that the only tortoises I keep now are redfoots. The two year-olds' spend little time under the light. The ambient temps/humidity are high so they are "in balance" there. The shade is on the other side of their "hide-hut".. where they stay often.

Even years back when I kept leopards.. hermanns and sulcatas I maintained a 'shade' area for them. The star tortoises were the most "heat-tolerant" of them all.

Bottom line - have used the tubes / loops and spirals over the years - give them options and chances are you won't have issues.


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## Team Gomberg (Feb 2, 2016)

Daveypryme said:


> I have used the coil bulb on my red eared slider since I got him 10 years ago as a hatchling. I didn't know the risks so I never thought to buy a different bulb. I have never had a problem with my turtle having any eye issues. The light has always been above is turtle dock about 12" high. He is almost 8 inches long,He looks great. I discovered the risks after I decided to buy a tortoise and joined this forum for help. I still use the bulb for my turtle but not for my tortoise I use the mvb for my tortoise. Mainly because of all the stories I have heard, and not wanting to risk it happening to my tortoise. Since my res has never had issues I haven't seen the reason to change bulbs.
> View attachment 164224



Just to clarify..
You have been using the exact same coil bulb for 10 straight years? 
Have you checked it with a meter to determine if it's still emitting UV rays?

**I've never used artificial UV so I have no experience to offer this thread.


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## Maggie Cummings (Feb 2, 2016)

Team Gomberg said:


> Just to clarify..
> You have been using the exact same coil bulb for 10 straight years?
> Have you checked it with a meter to determine if it's still emitting UV rays?
> 
> **I've never used artificial UV so I have no experience to offer this thread.



I've been told that the UVB rays run out after about 6 months.....but that's MVB's


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## Daveypryme (Feb 2, 2016)

Team Gomberg said:


> Just to clarify..
> You have been using the exact same coil bulb for 10 straight years?
> Have you checked it with a meter to determine if it's still emitting UV rays?
> 
> **I've never used artificial UV so I have no experience to offer this thread.


 
No, sorry. I have used the same type of coil bulb for 10 years not the same one. I change mine every 6 months.


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## sibi (Feb 2, 2016)

Tom said:


> The main reasons I see are that MVBs run too hot for some applications, and they also cost more than some other options.



I understand the high cost factor, but if the MVB gets to hot in the enclosure, that's a quick fix. I simply raise the bulb higher until I reach the desired heat output. Look, I find that using the MVB for baby sullies can be so beneficial in so many ways provides that the owner has enough space so that the lamp can radiate enough heat /UV in that space. As with all products, I would not use anything that I haven't observed desired results. I am extremely vigilante in observing what my animals do, how they react to it, what their general skin condition looks like, you get the picture. Coil bulbs are forever out, and MVB work very well for my sullies.


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## Markw84 (Feb 2, 2016)

sibi said:


> I understand the high cost factor, but if the MVB gets to hot in the enclosure, that's a quick fix. I simply raise the bulb higher until I reach the desired heat output. .


Sibi, I really like the MVB too, but in my enclosed, insulated chamber I use, the WHOLE enclosure gets way too hot with anything over a 75 watt bulb. With 100 watts, I can't get the coolest side DOWN to 90F. Even this time of year and the enclosure is in a 2nd garage devoted to our chelonians which today is 50F! Not in a 70F indoor room.


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## sibi (Feb 2, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> Sibi, I really like the MVB too, but in my enclosed, insulated chamber I use, the WHOLE enclosure gets way too hot with anything over a 75 watt bulb. With 100 watts, I can't get the coolest side DOWN to 90F. Even this time of year and the enclosure is in a 2nd garage devoted to our chelonians which today is 50F! Not in a 70F indoor room.



I understand perfectly; however, if possible I would've enlarged the chamber, poke holes in the ceiling or sides, put an exhaust fan of some kind, in order to make better use of the MVB. I know everyone does what they need to do to get the desired results. Your solution was to get a lower wattage bulb to fix the overheating problem. I get that, but know that under the right circumstances, this bulb is multifunctional and , I believe, safer than anything out there, with the exception of natural sunlight. That's all I'm advocating 

You did what you needed to do, and that's fine. But, I wouldn't defend the use of coil bulbs so as to have newbies consider using coil bulbs. That would be wrong knowing the damage the bulbs have done to many tortoises, even if it didn't give you any trouble using it.


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## Markw84 (Feb 2, 2016)

Tom said:


> Pete, I love conversing with you, so don't take this as an attack of any kind. Just discussing the matter in a civil tone here, and enjoying the discussion.
> 
> I think this is seen more with sulcatas simply because there are more sulcatas out there in the world than any other species. Another contributing factor is that since sulcatas are cheaper, the people who buy them, might be more inclined to buy cheaper lighting and UV options.
> 
> Also, I think you may be suffering from a logical fallacy that many people succumb to about sulcatas. Yes sulcatas come from a hot sunny place, but they spend 95-98% of their lives underground and out of the sun. It is very likely, given this fact that your RFs see more sun in the wild than a wild sulcata would, albeit dappled sun...


I'll thrown something in here... D3 is only created in the skin. Tortoises have much less skin area for UVB absorption than most any animal. The thickness and color of the skin also greatly affects UVB absorption. In the full shade in the tropics, there is still reflected UVB that would register about 1 on the solar index. That's enough for D3 production. Forest tortoises spend more time in the shade and under bushes and manufacture their D3 over that longer exposure. In a burrow, I think there would be very little, so the tortoise would be forced to take advantage of more intense, shorter basking at the burrow entrance and while feeding. That could mean they seek out more intense light. The fact that their skin is so thick in many parts that could be exposed, also would lead me to believe they would develop a propensity to brighter basking options than many others but for shorter times for safety and to maximize time in the environment of their burrow. I know my sulcatas always choose the brightest, warmest part of their enclosure to bask when thay have not been able to in a while, but in the summer, usually retreat to their 'burrow' house throughout the mid day. short, intense sunning may be a contributor as they try to seek out the most intense exposure to compensate for these factors????? Just a thought!


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## Markw84 (Feb 2, 2016)

sibi said:


> I understand perfectly; however, if possible I would've enlarged the chamber, poke holes in the ceiling or sides, put an exhaust fan of some kind, in order to make better use of the MVB. I know everyone does what they need to do to get the desired results. Your solution was to get a lower wattage bulb to fix the overheating problem. I get that, but know that under the right circumstances, this bulb is multifunctional and , I believe, safer than anything out there, with the exception of natural sunlight. That's all I'm advocating
> 
> You did what you needed to do, and that's fine. But, I wouldn't defend the use of coil bulbs so as to have newbies consider using coil bulbs. That would be wrong knowing the damage the bulbs have done to many tortoises, even if it didn't give you any trouble using it.


I do not use a coil. I use a long tube.


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## sibi (Feb 2, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> I do not use a coil. I use a long tube.[/QUOTE
> 
> Oops, my bad.


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## sibi (Feb 2, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> I'll thrown something in here... D3 is only created in the skin. Tortoises have much less skin area for UVB absorption than most any animal. The thickness and color of the skin also greatly affects UVB absorption. In the full shade in the tropics, there is still reflected UVB that would register about 1 on the solar index. That's enough for D3 production. Forest tortoises spend more time in the shade and under bushes and manufacture their D3 over that longer exposure. In a burrow, I think there would be very little, so the tortoise would be forced to take advantage of more intense, shorter basking at the burrow entrance and while feeding. That could mean they seek out more intense light. The fact that their skin is so thick in many parts that could be exposed, also would lead me to believe they would develop a propensity to brighter basking options than many others but for shorter times for safety and to maximize time in the environment of their burrow. I know my sulcatas always choose the brightest, warmest part of their enclosure to bask when thay have not been able to in a while, but in the summer, usually retreat to their 'burrow' house throughout the mid day. short, intense sunning may be a contributor as they try to seek out the most intense exposure to compensate for these factors????? Just a thought!



That's much of the kind if behaviors my sullies have outside. I think you're spot on!


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## Team Gomberg (Feb 2, 2016)

Daveypryme said:


> No, sorry. I have used the same type of coil bulb for 10 years not the same one. I change mine every 6 months.


Ok thanks for clarifying.. 
Going through 20 bulbs is different than using just 1 for 10 years. So, if you suddenly notice an eye issue after a new bulb, you'd have the past experiences to compare it to.


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## Team Gomberg (Feb 2, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> I'll thrown something in here... D3 is only created in the skin. Tortoises have much less skin area for UVB absorption than most any animal. The thickness and color of the skin also greatly affects UVB absorption. In the full shade in the tropics, there is still reflected UVB that would register about 1 on the solar index. That's enough for D3 production. Forest tortoises spend more time in the shade and under bushes and manufacture their D3 over that longer exposure. In a burrow, I think there would be very little, so the tortoise would be forced to take advantage of more intense, shorter basking at the burrow entrance and while feeding. That could mean they seek out more intense light. The fact that their skin is so thick in many parts that could be exposed, also would lead me to believe they would develop a propensity to brighter basking options than many others but for shorter times for safety and to maximize time in the environment of their burrow. I know my sulcatas always choose the brightest, warmest part of their enclosure to bask when thay have not been able to in a while, but in the summer, usually retreat to their 'burrow' house throughout the mid day. short, intense sunning may be a contributor as they try to seek out the most intense exposure to compensate for these factors????? Just a thought!



Interesting..


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## Tom (Feb 2, 2016)

sibi said:


> I understand the high cost factor, but if the MVB gets to hot in the enclosure, that's a quick fix. I simply raise the bulb higher until I reach the desired heat output.



This does not work in a closed chamber. MVBs make so much heat that they over heat the whole thing. The bulb height and basking temp are not the issue.

MVBs are good for some applications, but they are not the best solution for others.


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## Tom (Feb 2, 2016)

sibi said:


> I understand perfectly; however, if possible I would've enlarged the chamber, poke holes in the ceiling or sides, put an exhaust fan of some kind, in order to make better use of the MVB.



All of these things defeat the purpose of a closed chamber, which in my experience is the _best_ way to raise babies.

I do agree that coil bulbs are not the solution. I use long florescent tubes for indoor UV along with a lower wattage basking bulb for heat.


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## sibi (Feb 2, 2016)

Tom said:


> All of these things defeat the purpose of a closed chamber, which in my experience is the _best_ way to raise babies.
> 
> I do agree that coil bulbs are not the solution. I use long florescent tubes for indoor UV along with a lower wattage basking bulb for heat.



Yeah, I see the problem with Mark"s chamber. If it doesn't work, that's all good and fine. Btw, have long florescent lighting ever given the babies eye trouble?


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## Daveypryme (Feb 2, 2016)

Team Gomberg said:


> Ok thanks for clarifying..
> Going through 20 bulbs is different than using just 1 for 10 years. So, if you suddenly notice an eye issue after a new bulb, you'd have the past experiences to compare it to.



Yes. Without knowing about the potential dangers of these bulbs I would not think the coil light would be the source of the eye problem. But after reading everything I would change the coil light immediately if eye issues were to start. 
I feel like maybe the issues happen with a faulty bulb or maybe some tortoises,lizards etc. Are more sensitive to the coil lights.


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## Markw84 (Feb 2, 2016)

Sibi: yes. That was a part of my original post on this and why I thought it more worthy of discussion. There were cases of eye problems with some long tubes though not at all as common but now there are even stronger high output long tubes plus metal halide. That's why I think it's good to keep this discussion going and exploring all possible contributions to the problem


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## sibi (Feb 2, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> Sibi: yes. That was a part of my original post on this and why I thought it more worthy of discussion. There were cases of eye problems with some long tubes though not at all as common but now there are even stronger high output long tubes plus metal halide. That's why I think it's good to keep this discussion going and exploring all possible contributions to the problem



Interesting! I have read all your posts, and you really have a way of explaining the various factors with the use of different bulbs. I enjoy your posts. Can you send me the list of various questions you posted by email? I'd like to answer those questions for future reference. My email is [email protected]


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## Markw84 (Feb 2, 2016)

Will do Tommorrow though. I'm done tonight!!!


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## Turtlepete (Feb 2, 2016)

Tom said:


> Pete, I love conversing with you, so don't take this as an attack of any kind. Just discussing the matter in a civil tone here, and enjoying the discussion.
> 
> I think this is seen more with sulcatas simply because there are more sulcatas out there in the world than any other species. Another contributing factor is that since sulcatas are cheaper, the people who buy them, might be more inclined to buy cheaper lighting and UV options.
> 
> Also, I think you may be suffering from a logical fallacy that many people succumb to about sulcatas. Yes sulcatas come from a hot sunny place, but they spend 95-98% of their lives underground and out of the sun. It is very likely, given this fact that your RFs see more sun in the wild than a wild sulcata would, albeit dappled sun...



I'd be rather disappointed in myself if I treated someone disagreeing with me as an offense. The only thing that would offend me is if someone thought they needed to treat me with needless sensitivity as if offending me would be the worst thing in the world (far too common in society). 

I understand sulcatas spend a lot of time underground, but 95-98% seems way beyond what I've heard? I was under the impression they spent an enormous amount of time grazing during the "wet season", something also used to validate and support the theory of raising them in humid environments. Yes? Assuming this I'd wager they experience more UV exposure, but that is admittedly a loose guess. As I said, my experience is limited in the area. To me it seems odd that a tortoise from Africa would experience less UV exposure, but perhaps I am wrong.

Tom, on the topic you mention about these bulbs being bad….that is due to a manufacturing error, right? Now heres something to think about….Are not ALL UV bulbs perhaps prone to these manufacturing errors? Any and ALL of these bulbs are manufactured by humans, and humans make errors. I see no reason to assume that absolutely ANY brand is safe from these same kinds of errors! Is it perhaps more common with these bulbs? Maybe. I haven't seen enough information to be confident about that. But keep in mind that these issues could appear with ANY UV bulbs being used. Perhaps not in the same way; there is a possibility of a manufacturing error leading to the bulbs overheating, or blinding them with harsh brightness. The bottom line is that I don't see any reason to assume the same kind of defects couldn't occur in the suggested $60 MVBs that seem to fail after 2 months of usage.


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## sibi (Feb 2, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> Will do Tommorrow though. I'm done tonight!!!



Thanks! I'm burned out too.Good night.


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## Tom (Feb 2, 2016)

Turtlepete said:


> I'd be rather disappointed in myself if I treated someone disagreeing with me as an offense. The only thing that would offend me is if someone thought they needed to treat me with needless sensitivity as if offending me would be the worst thing in the world (far too common in society).



Well you've seen more than one person take offense even when I had good intentions, and I wished to make sure that did not happen here. My mistake is incorrectly equating you with that type of person. My apologies. I should have known to just speak to you like a rational, intelligent adult. I've just had so many run-ins for speaking plain English to the wrong people that I've developed a tendency to attempt to be overly diplomatic even in situations that don't require it.



Turtlepete said:


> I understand sulcatas spend a lot of time underground, but 95-98% seems way beyond what I've heard? I was under the impression they spent an enormous amount of time grazing during the "wet season", something also used to validate and support the theory of raising them in humid environments. Yes? Assuming this I'd wager they experience more UV exposure, but that is admittedly a loose guess. As I said, my experience is limited in the area. To me it seems odd that a tortoise from Africa would experience less UV exposure, but perhaps I am wrong.



That is a quote from Bernard Devoux's "The Crying Tortoise". Seems like a high percentage to me too, but every minute that Bernard spent in "sucata land" is one more minute than I've spent there. Note to all, not just Pete: The way our sulcatas behave and go about their daily life here in temperate North America is reportedly VERY different than how they spend their days over there. People who have studied them in the wild and don't know them from captive North American sources, are genuinely surprised at how much time they spend above ground here, so says Tomas Diagne.



Turtlepete said:


> Tom, on the topic you mention about these bulbs being bad….that is due to a manufacturing error, right?



Wrong. Well... maybe...

We don't know exactly what the problem is. I've never heard the theory that it is a manufacturing error, but it could be. I've heard that its microscopic cracks that form in the phosphor coating during shipping that allow the emission of UVC, but that has not been demonstrated or proven either. Seems plausible, but...

And that brings us back to first hand experience and anecdotal info. I know that those other types of bulbs you mentioned _could_ have some sort of manufacturing defect, BUT they don't. Never seen one case. The coil bulbs, by contrast, frequently, but not always, cause problems. I don't know if its a manufacturing defect, a shipping issue, a design issue, a mis-use issue, all of the above, or some combination of the above and other factors... I just know that lots of reptiles of many species get their eyes burned under those bulbs, and they don't get burned eyeballs under long tubes or MVBs.


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## Turtlepete (Feb 2, 2016)

Tom said:


> That is a quote from Bernard Devoux's "The Crying Tortoise". Seems like a high percentage to me too, but every minute that Bernard spent in "sucata land" is one more minute than I've spent there. Note to all, not just Pete: The way our sulcatas behave and go about their daily life here in temperate North America is reportedly VERY different than how they spend their days over there. People who have studied them in the wild and don't know them from captive North American sources, are genuinely surprised at how much time they spend above ground here, so says Tomas Diagne.
> 
> Wrong. Well... maybe...
> 
> ...



Interesting. I had heard they spent a lot of time above ground during the "wet season". I do agree that its definitely worth mentioning how vastly our tortoises behavior varies from that of their wild counterparts. Some species might never bask in the wild but regularly enjoy doing so in captivity. My forstenii and carbonaria are two such examples for me. 

I was sure it was mentioned on the forum at one time about a manufacturing defect causing it…? Could be wrong I suppose. I thought the person had conversed with ZooMed on the issue and they had confirmed its a manufacturing issue. My memory admittedly sucks and perhaps I'm thinking of something totally different? Regardless, I still think its worth mentioning that these same problems could arise with the use of any bulbs. Shoot, any products we use. Malfunctioning heaters have killed a whole lot of reptile collections. 
Now, perhaps its more common with these. Once again, I haven't seen enough information to really see it one way or the other. Maybe these problems have been seen more with coil bulbs because coil bulbs were being used more frequently by keepers at the time? Being the cheaper of the options available, it seems like it would've been the natural choice for a lot of keepers. If more keepers were using them, it's plausible to suggest that this is why these issues were observed more often with the use of those bulbs.

Regardless of it all, I'm thankful I live in Florida where my animals can rely on natural sunlight 11 months out of the year. No bulb on the market can rival the benefits of natural sunlight. Not just physiologically, but psychologically as well.


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## Tom (Feb 2, 2016)

Turtlepete said:


> Regardless of it all, I'm thankful I live in Florida where my animals can rely on natural sunlight 11 months out of the year. No bulb on the market can rival the benefits of natural sunlight. Not just physiologically, but psychologically as well.



On this we agree 100% Same here. I don't _need_ artificial UV here at all.

My interest on the subject stems from my desire to stop seeing so many cases of burned reptile eyeballs.


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## Turtlepete (Feb 2, 2016)

Tom said:


> On this we agree 100% Same here. I don't _need_ artificial UV here at all.
> 
> My interest on the subject stems from my desire to stop seeing so many cases of burned reptile eyeballs.



Something worth mention….what about d3? I know this is a little off topic but…

Mainly, members here seem opposed to supplementing with vitamin d3. I've heard from the vets all the horror stories of over-supplenetation, and it's certain something to keep in mind. HOWEVER, I have always believed that in this field, first-hand experience trumps whatever we read in a book. I believe it was Tim (he keeps spiders, can't remember his name on the forum) who keeps is spider tortoises with no UV lights and simply supplements with d3. I wish I could find the forum post where he discussed it. His animals, of course, looked great, and if he was able to reproduce such a difficult species then he was certainly doing something right. I remember reading his forum posts about only supplementing d3 as opposed to using artificial UV lighting, and I was fascinated by it.

I wonder about controlled vitamin d3 supplementation as opposed to UV lights. If we could eliminate their usage entirely, then we eliminate the chance of harming our parts.

Now, I am not at all suggesting this. I'd just like to see the conversation take place. Personally, I have always been opposed to the idea of dietary supplementation as opposed to allowing reptiles to rely on the built-in chemical process to metabolize d3 (however that works….some sort of chemical in the skin that helps them to metabolize d3?) But if it could be done successfully, with controlled doses, it would be interesting how that would affect this conversation. No more bulbs means no more burned eyes. 

Just a thought.


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## DutchieAmanda (Feb 3, 2016)

I don't use a coil bulb because of all the stories I read on them. Finally, I chose a MVB for my redfoot because to me it seems most 'natural': combining heat, light and UV in one source. But there's no science there 

I did however look into dietary supplementation of vit D3, but in mammals, recently. Vit D is fat soluble, and therefore harder to excrete via urine. It is also toxic in higher doses. Too much UV won't result in toxic doses of vit D because the body regulates the production. Dietary supplementation can relatively easily lead to toxicity. In mammals, only a 4 times higher supplementation than requirement can cause disease. And because I have no idea of the exact requirements and of the actual intake of the supplements in my tort, I wouldn't recommend this. 

I had recently had a discussion with one of you on vit D concentrations in natural food sources for redfoots. Vit D is mainly present in fatty foods such as fatty fish and liver. I seldomly feed that to my tort.

In short: I'll stick with my MVB. For me it works in my closed chamber, my redfoot loves to bask (yes, the temps are correct) and I don't see any (eye) problems.


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## Anyfoot (Feb 3, 2016)

Turtlepete said:


> Something worth mention….what about d3? I know this is a little off topic but…
> 
> Mainly, members here seem opposed to supplementing with vitamin d3. I've heard from the vets all the horror stories of over-supplenetation, and it's certain something to keep in mind. HOWEVER, I have always believed that in this field, first-hand experience trumps whatever we read in a book. I believe it was Tim (he keeps spiders, can't remember his name on the forum) who keeps is spider tortoises with no UV lights and simply supplements with d3. I wish I could find the forum post where he discussed it. His animals, of course, looked great, and if he was able to reproduce such a difficult species then he was certainly doing something right. I remember reading his forum posts about only supplementing d3 as opposed to using artificial UV lighting, and I was fascinated by it.
> 
> ...


Don't want take this thread off topic, so short and sweet. 

Hi Turtlepete.

I've been looking into vitamin D(D2 and D3) sources. 

D2 come from fungus, if mushrooms are left in the sun for an hour before feeding the vitamin D level increases, mushrooms absorb the D2 just like our skin I believe.

D3 comes from uvb rays, fleshy fish, egg yolk and liver.

I was trying to work out how my hingebacks a forest tort get their vitamin D in order to absorb calcium. Is it plants? I came across Terry(redfootnerd) a couple of weeks ago to find he believes D3 is from mainly the diet .

So I started to look into this, and found this study. Please could you and any others have a read and let me know your thoughts. I can't link it in because the link is a direct download. Do a google search for 'PHD vitamin D in plants', it should be the first thing to come up.

Whilst reading the part about grass containing Vit D I was thinking of Tom and his herd of sullies, today I learnt that sullies spend most part of their life in a burrow. Is the short period of time in the sun enough for the Vit D needs, I don't know.

If you read this study, then after do a search on edible plants from the solanaceae family. Quite a few come from South America(and other countries)

Thought you may find it an interesting read.

Another question I ask myself and can't find an answer to. Are worms a source of D3. Moles spend most part of their life underground. Where does the Vit D come from to aid correct bone growth.

Maybe something or nothing. Need more brains on the subject.


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## Redfoot NERD (Feb 3, 2016)

WELLLL... we've heard everything from irrational emotional outbursts and attacks of others to totally technical scientific analysis .. but where is the actual explanation of how these devices are applied that produce these claimed horrific results???

How is it that some have years of no ill effects and others have almost immediate [ claimed ] blindness etc.?

Can we please get detailed set-ups??? - NOT ".. because I went by the instructions and it blinded my tortoises!!!!." - that's not a legitimate explanation.. that's a claimed reaction. I'm asking for the *"action" that creates the "reaction" *PLEASE???

I am under the impression that this topic/thread is to find out what we know about
* "coiled compact florescent bulbs".*
We've heard the "what" and the "why" and the "when"! Can we hear the specific "how" ( pics would be helpful ) --- it has been requested a number of times!


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## sibi (Feb 3, 2016)

Redfoot NERD said:


> WELLLL... we've heard everything from irrational emotional outbursts and attacks of others to totally technical scientific analysis .. but where is the actual explanation of how these devices are applied that produce these claimed horrific results???
> 
> How is it that some have years of no ill effects and others have almost immediate [ claimed ] blindness etc.?
> 
> ...



I,,for one, can't provide pics of the eye irritation and swelling cause I wasn't even a member then. It was when my torts started to get sick that I sort help at the forum. I didn't know to take pics of their condition, the messed up bulb, or their habitat. I suspect that many were in the same position I was in, and didn't take pics. However, this doesn't negate that the problem with the coil bulb was real. What's offensive here is that you are implying we are liars, or don't know what we're talking about. You're like the doctor that refused to listen to the patient. The patient reveals the symptoms and tells the doctor what she thinks is going on. The doctor dismisses her concerns, because he has more knowledge than she does, and in doing so, misses the obvious. In reality, I can't tell you how many times that happens. 
Perhaps, there are some who can provide pics, information about the bulb, their setup, etc. but, that's not going to satisfy you. Why don't you just give it up? You're not going to prove or convinced anyone because what's really needed hasn't been done, nor do I see a through investigation of the bulb being conducted over a series of species and conditions anytime soon.


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## DutchieAmanda (Feb 3, 2016)

No need to scream Redfoot Nerd 

I just stumbled upon a really interesting scientific article on UV lights: The UV-tool, a guide to the selection of UV lighting for reptiles and amphibians in captivity
They have measured UV output of different types of lights and also assessed the needs of many reptiles, including many tortoises and turtles. The didn't find the bad <290 nm wavelengths in any of the bulbs in the test. Interesting reading material!


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## Markw84 (Feb 3, 2016)

To me this is exactly on topic. All these issues are interrelated. The issue of this discussion, I believe, is - How to we properly provide artificial levels of UVB where well being and vitamin D3 is produced, yet no harm is done. Or, supplement with vitamins, yet I believe UVA certainly and probably UVB is still very beneficial to tortoise well being. The sources we have now are fluorescent and MVB. MVB is very hot, and very bright - so those are considerations. That leaves Fluorescent. Both tube and compact have shown problems in the past, and some manufacturing methods were changed as they used to emit too much UVC with some phosphor combinations. That seems to have slowed down the initial issues that created such a furor. However, it seems some still experience issues that could be the result of damaged bulbs, (not manufacturing errors) - in particular compact ones. I don't know how they are technically made and the phosphor applied, but I could theorize how it would seem more plausible with the thinner tubes and glass bent in coils or loops, the phosphor may be more subject to a possible displacement and damage in a compact. It is the type of phosphor and type of glass used that filters the wavelength the vaporized mercury emits in a fluorescent (and MVB). But - is this the case? Are we really dealing with a bad bulb now damaged to where it emits UVC with these newer bulbs? Or are we automatically immediately pointing to that as the cause because of those past issues, and not seeing the issues we will still be left with - because UVB will always be potentially damaging to cells when overexposed, and the limiting triggers tortoises have developed to monitor their basking is altered in an artificial environment with a non-natural, very different light source of any kind. I don't know the answer to that question. Hence my willingness to stick my neck out and risk being misunderstood in an effort to explore this!

So what is best for our tortoises?

SHOULD WE SUPPLEMENT?

Every study I can find, finds herbivorous reptiles cannot get anywhere near enough D3 from their food. It can be supplemented, but that does lead to the issue of overdose, which is not good at all. Overdose rapidly develops kidney failure, hardening of some organs, and death. So in our efforts to ensure especially our hatchlings get their D3 (so they can absorb calcium and harden their bones and shells) some that we see and assume as hatchling failure syndrome, could very actually be vitamin d overdose! New tortoise owners often start with a hatchling and see the softer shells and hear they need calcium and D3. More would be better since my hatchling's shell is not hard and I want to help it best I can - may sometimes be assumed.

WHY WOULD PROVIDING UVB BE BETTER?

So reptiles are designed to manufacture d3 from sunlight. In particular UVB. UVB in a particular wavelength that is very close to the UVC wavelengths! They cannot overdose this - as the skin synthesizes provitaminD, which is rapidly converted to previtaminD and with heat added over time, that is then converted to D3. D3 is then absorbed into the blood stream, but as UVB also breaks down D3, that which isn't absorbed is broken down. So basking self-regulates the proper amounts of D3.

Additionally, and often overlooked, all these lights also provide UVA. The eye anatomy of a tortoise is different than ours. They even have a cone in the eye we do not. Also, he pineal gland is a light sensitive and very UV sensitive organ. Tortoises use UVA and probably UVB for vision, sensing daily and annual cycles, Identifying plants and sexual partners, and we know it also allows even humans to produce beta endorphins necessary for well being and activity levels. Ever noticed the stripes, colors and patterns on aquatic and many tortoise legs and neck? Those look very different to a chelonian with their added UVA vision and they use those as visual cues in identifying a mate of the proper species and sub species. The world of plants looks much different to them under UVA and identifying the right plants to eat by vision as well as smell is key.

WHAT ARE THE BASKING REQUIREMENTS, THEN?

For D3 - They don't need much UVB to accomplish this. Various species have developed different strategies and anatomy. Thicker skin and darker skin dramatically limits UVB penetration. Think of sulcata's thick skin, Galops and Aldabra's very dark skin, and habit to retreat to pools when there is little shade as the water immediately filers any UVB that could reach their legs. I know my Sulcata's also like to flip mud up on themselves whenever they get a chance on a bright day, and I assume they would do this in the wild, along with spending a great amount of their time in a deep burrow. Forest species can obtain the UVB they need from shaded basking and tend to bask in filtered sun and early morning. There is enough reflected UVB in the shade in the tropics to easily allow D3 production.

But what tells a tortoise he's had enough? How do they naturally protect their eyes from the UVB? Their more sensitive areas of their skin? In natural sunlight, no mater how bright, UVA and UVB accounts for much less than 1% of the light intensity. UVC does not exist in nature on earth in sunlight - it is all filtered out by the atmosphere. The UVB alone probably way under 0.1% And the heat generated by sunlight is significant. a 5.0 UV bulb means that 5% of the light intensity is UVB alone - a 10.0 is 10% UVB. Because the total light is so much less intense than sunlight we need that much to provide enough UVB where the tortoise basks - whether trying to simulate open sun, or the reflected natural UVB of a shaded forest. But that means for what the tortoise sees and feels, he is probably getting 100 times more UVB than when he would 'feel' the same with natural light! That seems to open the door for overexposure where other gradients are not provided, or and enclosure too small, lamp too close, etc. I DON"T KNOW! But I would like to find out.


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## Anyfoot (Feb 3, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> To me this is exactly on topic. All these issues are interrelated. The issue of this discussion, I believe, is - How to we properly provide artificial levels of UVB where well being and vitamin D3 is produced, yet no harm is done. Or, supplement with vitamins, yet I believe UVA certainly and probably UVB is still very beneficial to tortoise well being. The sources we have now are fluorescent and MVB. MVB is very hot, and very bright - so those are considerations. That leaves Fluorescent. Both tube and compact have shown problems in the past, and some manufacturing methods were changed as they used to emit too much UVC with some phosphor combinations. That seems to have slowed down the initial issues that created such a furor. However, it seems some still experience issues that could be the result of damaged bulbs, (not manufacturing errors) - in particular compact ones. I don't know how they are technically made and the phosphor applied, but I could theorize how it would seem more plausible with the thinner tubes and glass bent in coils or loops, the phosphor may be more subject to a possible displacement and damage in a compact. It is the type of phosphor and type of glass used that filters the wavelength the vaporized mercury emits in a fluorescent (and MVB). But - is this the case? Are we really dealing with a bad bulb now damaged to where it emits UVC with these newer bulbs? Or are we automatically immediately pointing to that as the cause because of those past issues, and not seeing the issues we will still be left with - because UVB will always be potentially damaging to cells when overexposed, and the limiting triggers tortoises have developed to monitor their basking is altered in an artificial environment with a non-natural, very different light source of any kind. I don't know the answer to that question. Hence my willingness to stick my neck out and risk being misunderstood in an effort to explore this!
> 
> So what is best for our tortoises?
> 
> ...


A good read Mark.

So IF a sully does spend 95% of its time in a burrow (where I am assuming there is no uv deflection) is the other 5% of the time in the sun enough for the required amount of d3 intake.
Just thought, 5% of a day is 72 minutes. I'm now thinking yes it would be enough time.


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## Markw84 (Feb 3, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> A good read Mark.
> 
> So IF a sully does spend 95% of its time in a burrow (where I am assuming there is no uv deflection) is the other 5% of the time in the sun enough for the required amount of d3 intake.
> Just thought, 5% of a day is 72 minutes. I'm now thinking yes it would be enough time.


Yes. BUT... here I go again. I just don't see things with this in simple answers.

In bright intense light, it wouldn't take long for UVB to stimulate the formation of provitaminD - previtaminD. That happens very quickly. However, the skin needs to then be heated and over a few hours that is converted to D3. So a lot of various types of basking behavior is also importantly thermoregulation. But from pictures I remember seeing 40 and 50 years ago of sulcata tortoises in the wild and people catching them, and watching my own sulcatas who were allowed to dig burrows, and seeing CA desert tortoises, I can't help believe they also spend some time hiding in the entrance to their burrow waiting to quickly slide back down if disturbed. I know my sulcatas and the CA Desert tortoises do this. This added form of basking would be a way they would get plenty of reflected UVB and added heat.

Also the tortoises body stores this for use. I always seem to end up getting geeky and boring my dear Brenda always says. And this thread proves it to her. So here I go again...
D3 as it is formed in the skin is actually binded to by a protein in the blood where it is carried to the liver and converted to calcediol This, in the bloodstream is carried to the kidneys and calcetriol is created. This is what the body uses to metabolize calcium among other thing. At the calcediol stage, this in mammals at least, has a half life of about 2 weeks in the bloodstream - so is available to the kidneys without the need to bask for some time. This is what good reptile vets will check the level of in blood samples to see how a reptile is doing on vitamin d.


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## Anyfoot (Feb 3, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> Yes. BUT... here I go again. I just don't see things with this in simple answers.
> 
> In bright intense light, it wouldn't take long for UVB to stimulate the formation of provitaminD - previtaminD. That happens very quickly. However, the skin needs to then be heated and over a few hours that is converted to D3. So a lot of various types of basking behavior is also importantly thermoregulation. But from pictures I remember seeing 40 and 50 years ago of sulcata tortoises in the wild and people catching them, and watching my own sulcatas who were allowed to dig burrows, and seeing CA desert tortoises, I can't help believe they also spend some time hiding in the entrance to their burrow waiting to quickly slide back down if disturbed. I know my sulcatas and the CA Desert tortoises do this. This added form of basking would be a way they would get plenty of reflected UVB and added heat.
> 
> ...


 The 2 week life period in the blood stream I did not know. I'm going to to let you go again. Your talking about d3 from uvb. What about d3 from oral intake. Im lead to believe this is a much slower process than the uvb absorbed d3.


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## Markw84 (Feb 3, 2016)

No long tirade necessary here. It is the same. The D3 get the protein bind in the intestines - enters the bloodstream and all else the same. The difference is that in the skin - the exposure to UVB breaks down excess D3 so no overdose. From previtaminD to D3 takes hours in the skin with heat. But UVB breaks down D3 in the skin so only a controlled amount is absorbed into the bloodstream.


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## Markw84 (Feb 3, 2016)

DutchieAmanda said:


> No need to scream Redfoot Nerd
> 
> I just stumbled upon a really interesting scientific article on UV lights: The UV-tool, a guide to the selection of UV lighting for reptiles and amphibians in captivity
> They have measured UV output of different types of lights and also assessed the needs of many reptiles, including many tortoises and turtles. The didn't find the bad <290 nm wavelengths in any of the bulbs in the test. Interesting reading material!


Yes, this is a great study and lots of useful information here in selecting the right type light. But they did not test any compact fluorescents, and never addresses any potential eye issues, or other related possible problems.


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## Markw84 (Feb 3, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> Yes, this is a great study and lots of useful information here in selecting the right type light. But they did not test any compact fluorescents, and never addresses any potential eye issues, or other related possible problems.


I also remember going through this and not really agreeing with many of the habitat classifications they gave to some chelonians. Not sure how they came up with some. But still useful.


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## Redfoot NERD (Feb 3, 2016)

Still not getting "*How* are these D3 things made available to our tortoises [ diet for my tortoises ] and turtles"..? Especially the basking tortoises that most seem to have on this tread

When my water turtles are under the coil bulbs to bask they are ( given the space to move as needed ) facing away from the light.. or are sleeping with their eyes closed.

And the redfoot tortoises.. ( as seldom as they are under the coil.. because they get their D3 from their diet.. so they have no need to bask ).. sleep the same way. I have again explained my set-up.

I have to suspect that these tortoises are subjected to entirely too many "rays" ( light or otherwise ) because they have no choice. Again this is based on no less than 10 years of receiving requested pics from 'keepers' showing how they have their habitat set-up. Virtually "flooded" with light!

EARLY ON the "standard" for habitat set-up was for mainly the African and European "BASKING" tortoises.. again EARLY ON.. which included a cool and hot spot with intense light/UVB .. to ensure that no MDB would transpire! How has this influenced what is being done today? Little.. some.. or is it the 'standard'?

To insure I'm not misunderstood .. [ accused of judging ] these are observations of mine .. from those that were misguided or deceived by those that were only "advising" to sell their product!


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## Yvonne G (Feb 3, 2016)

Redfoot NERD said:


> WELLLL... we've heard everything from irrational emotional outbursts and attacks of others to totally technical scientific analysis .. but where is the actual explanation of how these devices are applied that produce these claimed horrific results???
> 
> How is it that some have years of no ill effects and others have almost immediate [ claimed ] blindness etc.?
> 
> ...



Most of the eye problems were discussed at the time they happened, and changes were made. The most important thing at the time was getting the baby's eyes soothed and the problem resolved. Taking pictures of the offending product was the furthest thing from anyone's mind. I believe Maggie did say in her post how far she had the vertical light hanging from the substrate. I doubt you're going to get an answer to your request.


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## Tom (Feb 3, 2016)

Redfoot NERD said:


> WELLLL... we've heard everything from irrational emotional outbursts and attacks of others to totally technical scientific analysis .. but where is the actual explanation of how these devices are applied that produce these claimed horrific results???
> 
> How is it that some have years of no ill effects and others have almost immediate [ claimed ] blindness etc.?
> 
> ...



We see these cases at least once a month here Terry. You should be able to go back and find at least 50 over the last few years. Then you can try to reach each of those people and get your specific questions answered.


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## mike taylor (Feb 3, 2016)

I'll you have to do is search ( eye problem ) and a lot of them pop up . Mr. Turtleterry .


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## Redfoot NERD (Feb 3, 2016)

What's all this animosity about anyway? I asked for a description of how these bulbs were utilized... and we're seeing these remarks???? How are these remarks beneficial to this thread?

Why is there not a possibility of set-up having anything to do with the issue. Why are you guys majoring on the minor * ( pics would be helpful ) *?



Tom said:


> We see these cases at least once a month here Terry. You should be able to go back and find at least 50 over the last few years. Then you can try to reach each of those people and get your specific questions answered.



Not concerned about them now Tom... trying to establish ( on this tread ) if habitat set-up had an affect on those participating in this thread now.

Yvonne stated changes were made.. what's different now from what was done then?

Or how about [ other than bulbs being used ] .. what does the arrangement for basking tortoises look like now? I'm not asking for personal info because I don't keep them myself.

It makes no difference to me either way.....


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## DutchieAmanda (Feb 3, 2016)

Redfoot NERD said:


> And the redfoot tortoises.. ( as seldom as they are under the coil.. because they get their D3 from their diet.. so they have no need to bask ).. sleep the same way. I have again explained my set-up.



I have given arguments here and in a different topic that I don't believe redfoots get (all) their vit D from their diet. They can also absorb UV b rays when not directly in the sun or basking light, especially in tropical climates. Yours are kept outside I believe but would you consider to stop promoting that redfoots kept inside don't need UVB until you have enough valid arguments for this? 

Thanks.


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## Redfoot NERD (Feb 4, 2016)

DutchieAmanda said:


> I have given arguments here and in a different topic that I don't believe redfoots get (all) their vit D from their diet. They can also absorb UV b rays when not directly in the sun or basking light, especially in tropical climates. Yours are kept outside I believe but would you consider to stop promoting that redfoots kept inside don't need UVB until you have enough valid arguments for this?
> 
> Thanks.



Amanda mine are not kept outside all year 'round. I brought them into the building in October and will be until outside again usually in April sometime. My prescribed care regime has worked since 2005 and has produced F2 hatchlings.. ( 1998 hatchlings produced in 2005 and among those started producing in 2012.. maybe that's F3? ) So as they always say in my circle of associates.. we don't "argue" among ourselves and you know you're doing something right when they make babies... like this one -


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## sibi (Feb 4, 2016)

Redfoot NERD said:


> Amanda mine are not kept outside all year 'round. I brought them into the building in October and will be until outside again usually in April sometime. My prescribed care regime has worked since 2005 and has produced F2 hatchlings.. ( 1998 hatchlings produced in 2005 and among those started producing in 2012.. maybe that's F3? ) So as they always say in my circle of associates.. we don't "argue" among ourselves and you know you're doing something right when they make babies... like this one -



This pic of a baby RF is about the best post you're given here yet. Thanks for the distraction


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## Markw84 (Feb 4, 2016)

Terry, I must say ALL the research I have seen shows that herbivorous and semi herbivorous reptiles cannot get anywhere close to enough D3 in a natural diet.

In looking at this I consider:

Tortoises can continue to metabolize calcium to diminishing degrees, perhaps 3-4 weeks after their last exposure to UVB. (earlier post in this thread)
I also keep in mind that the Mazuri we all seem to use and love does contain calcium and proper amounts of D3 - That's why I like it so much!! That's why I also rarely add calcium with D3 on top of food offered as I probably use more Mazuri in the diet than many seem to. With the Mazuri, I'm not worried about overdose as it is formulated in that very small ratio with that in mind. But that, combined with what UVB I now provide with UVB lights, seems a great safety net. Won't overdose with the Mazuri, and any more they need can be synthesized naturally, but that can't be overproduced if not needed due to the biological limiting processes already discussed.

I don't know if this is good or bad, but I was happy with the results I can directly talk about-- I raised a over 100 perfectly healthy sulcatas I hatched (despite slight pyramiding!) back 10 - 20 years ago without any artificial UVB light keeping the hatchlings and yearlings indoors probably mid Oct - mid March. But I did use as a part of their diet Mazuri, and back then, Repti Cal pellets to ensure calcium and D3 availability. Never added any other supplements.


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## Redfoot NERD (Feb 4, 2016)

Thank you Mark.. does ALL their research [ NOT for OMNIVORES? ] include what you and I did? Their research was based on "UNNATURAL" conditions! [ trying to add humor --- mine/ours didn't read those articles? ] Of course in the wild they get what they need from natural sunlight sources other than diet! PLUS how many deep forest / jungle.. even African swamp ( Kinixys erosa ) tortoises rely heavily on their diet?

Anyone who looks at my caresheet will see that a weekly addition to their diet included a high protein dry catfood offered then by Purina - Weight Managment [ compare those ingredients to Mazuri which is formulated for herbivores ]. Apparently it's not available anymore.. just looked. It contained something like 46% animal protein.. considerable calcium and D3 also. Other than the no D3 calcium to supplement the loss from creating eggs - was the only additive I offered also. They also created 100's of healthy hatchlings.. as shown.

It must be understood that D3 is stored and can be very toxic because of that. ( always walking the line aren't we ? )

Have no idea how all of this lighting you speak of impacts herbivorous .. since 90% of my experience is with omnivores.


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## Markw84 (Feb 4, 2016)

Redfoot NERD said:


> Thank you Mark.. does ALL their research [ NOT for OMNIVORES? ] include what you and I did? Their research was based on "UNNATURAL" conditions! [ trying to add humor --- .


Terry. Sorry I was confusing in my reply. I simply meant to address the possible confusion I and others could have that you were implying that those 'omnivore' tortoises can get all the D3 they need from a more 'natural' diet. Obviously we can supplement. But we would need provide some type fatty food in their diet to provide D3. Only fatty food contains D3. Some point to mushrooms - but they contain D2 not D3. So we have 3 choices I guess:
-Ensure they get some UVB
-Add a dietary supplement with D3 in it
-Add fatty foods to their diet (Which I know is not an option with Leopards, Sulcata, Stars - I'll let other debate the rest.)


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## Redfoot NERD (Feb 4, 2016)

Thanks again Mark ---- as I recall.. before this thread started "debating and arguing" over ????? We were asked about what we know about "coil" bulbs.
Of course the protein etc. is derived from plant matter in the Mazuri.. which WOULD be insufficient for Omnivores. etc. The pellets I provided were chicken/turkey for carnivores which was/is acceptable to redfoots, etc. But again that is only related to providing the few parameters needed to maintain these creatures.

That being said.. my application of lighting needs [ coil or otherwise ] is quite different than yours and others - I too will let others debate that !


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## ZEROPILOT (Feb 4, 2016)

I started this thread to decide what I myself should say to a new member who has both a tortoise with eye issues and/or a coiled CFL.
I had no first hand experience but had encountered a few dozen cases connecting the two.
There are several members who I respect and generally agree with that had a different take on these lights.
I thought that I (We?) needed more information in order to be helpful in the future.
Not much has been accomplished.
I will request this post be closed.


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## Maggie Cummings (Feb 4, 2016)

I'm sorry Ed


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## lisa127 (Feb 4, 2016)

Wow, I don't understand all the arguing in this thread.


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## ZEROPILOT (Feb 4, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> I'm sorry Ed


Don't be.
I was looking for experiences.
I can understand your frustration.
In fact, I appreciate everyone's passion here. Maybe some of it can help others.


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## SteveW (Feb 4, 2016)

Bummer. I'm late to this party but have enjoyed catching up. Whether or not Mr Nerd has anything productive to add, Marks comments, and others are insightful, are they not?


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## lisa127 (Feb 4, 2016)

SteveW said:


> Bummer. I'm late to this party but have enjoyed catching up. Whether or not Mr Nerd has anything productive to add, Marks comments, and others are insightful, are they not?


They were all insightful I thought.


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## ZEROPILOT (Feb 4, 2016)

We're a family.
Nothing more. Nothing less.


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## wellington (Feb 4, 2016)

Per OP request this thread is closed


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