# Advice given by lead Veterinary College in UK incl. Feeding Med tortoises fruit, using newspaper as substrate, advocates 1ft x 3ft enclosures



## LJL1982 (Oct 26, 2022)

Views welcomed on attached care sheet disseminating advice on Mediterranean Tortoise care which on several levels including advocating lower humidity in 1ft x 3ft enclosures, feeding of fruit and goitrogen bound veg, and use of newspaper substrate.

The Royal Veterinary College is the UK's leading Veterinary College.

Discuss!


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## wellington (Oct 26, 2022)

All wrong advice. That's exactly why we try to help sick torts before the owner brings them into a vet. Sadly most vets, not all don't have a clue about how to care for or treat a tortoise.
You should let them know about this forum.


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## LJL1982 (Oct 26, 2022)

wellington said:


> All wrong advice. That's exactly why we try to help sick torts before the owner brings them into a vet. Sadly most vets, not all don't have a clue about how to care for or treat a tortoise.
> You should let them know about this forum.


Frightening isn't it. Generally the advice around the UK is appalling, even when those involved are "Exotics specialists" and academics. They also work with most of the zoos in the UK, they are the leading University effectively.


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## wellington (Oct 26, 2022)

LJL1982 said:


> Frightening isn't it. Generally the advice around the UK is appalling, even when those involved are "Exotics specialists" and academics. They also work with most of the zoos in the UK, they are the leading University effectively.


Very frightening and very very sad. Before joining this forum, I thought Zoo's were the best of the best when it came to animal care and knowledge, vets and the vet colleagues/university's being second. Very sad how wrong that is, at least when it comes to tortoises.


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## Maro2Bear (Oct 26, 2022)

Substrate: Recommends newspaper & astroturf as the top two substrates!

Food: Supplementation is important, particularly with supermarket bought goods!

Yikes


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## EricW (Oct 26, 2022)

Personally through, all the different avenues (forums, facebook groups, etc.), I see a lack of real field research references on diet. And when I look, I struggle to find the research. I wish more of the husbandry guidelines related to real field research, which I rarely see. Some of the diet research I have seen on wild tortoises are of adults and not hatchling or juvenile tortoises.

That being said, I will find the research that shows Hermann's tortoises are found to eat quite a bit of Butcher's Broom berries in the fall. In fact they seek it out and remember where the bush's are and target them before winter. So an occasional fruit based on season (especially if brumating) may be more inline with nature than many think. I also seen where folks say grass isn't for Herman's but mine loves to eat grass.

Many tortoises go through seasonal changes that are link to dietary changes. We often neglect this in husbandry. For example, many Leopard Tortoises go through a wet and dry season. During wet season they eat the lush grass and other leafy Forbes and water is plentiful. High fiber, high water, humid, high growth period and they move a lot. During dry season, switch to succulents, low movement, low water (mainly get water from succulents), slow growth.


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## EricW (Oct 26, 2022)

Seasonal Changes in the Diet of Testudo hermanni hermanni in Central Italy


Abstract. Herbivory is the dominant feeding strategy in tortoises, and dietary shifts are common in response to changes in resource availability. We conducted the first large-scale study of the diets of wild Hermann's Tortoises (Testudo hermanni hermanni) and found that the study population in...




meridian.allenpress.com





Abstract​Herbivory is the dominant feeding strategy in tortoises, and dietary shifts are common in response to changes in resource availability. We conducted the first large-scale study of the diets of wild Hermann's Tortoises (_Testudo hermanni hermanni_) and found that the study population in central Italy was strictly herbivorous. The tortoises ate primarily legume leaves and grasses in the spring, and switched to flowers and unripe fruit of _Ruscus aculeatus_ as these became available in the autumn. There were no significant differences between the diets of males and females. Although tortoise diets included both rare and abundant plant species, they consumed abundant plant species in a higher proportion than those species occurred in the study area. However, some rare plants made up relatively large fractions of the diet, and one of the few nonnative plants (_Conyza canadensis_) at the study area was eaten frequently by tortoises in all seasons, despite its relative rarity. _Ruscus aculeatus_ berries may be particularly valuable to tortoises that are about to enter hibernation; hence, _T. hermanni_ habitat should be managed to maintain this important plant species.

Ruscus aculeatus = Butcher's Broom plant.


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## LJL1982 (Oct 26, 2022)

Maro2Bear said:


> Substrate: Recommends newspaper & astroturf as the top two substrates!
> 
> Food: Supplementation is important, particularly with supermarket bought goods!
> 
> Yikes


I forgot the AstroTurf bit!!! I mean, the tortoise can supplement its diet with that too!


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## Tom (Oct 26, 2022)

EricW said:


> Seasonal Changes in the Diet of Testudo hermanni hermanni in Central Italy
> 
> 
> Abstract. Herbivory is the dominant feeding strategy in tortoises, and dietary shifts are common in response to changes in resource availability. We conducted the first large-scale study of the diets of wild Hermann's Tortoises (Testudo hermanni hermanni) and found that the study population in...
> ...


Google search turns up several sources that say this:

Butcher's broom berries are poisonous to humans and dogs; when ingested, they can cause digestive problems and hemolysis, which is the rupturing of the red blood cells.
As you noted, there is little research done on wild diets. What little there is to be found is often incomplete and just scratches the surface. In contrast, we do know the results of what they are typically fed and what is typically available in captivity.

It seems a to a huge leap to advocate for feeding fruit to tortoises, because one study found that one species ate some unripe "berries" of this one obscure plant, at a certain time of the year. This does not mean the people should be feeding strawberries and apples to their Mediterranean tortoise species all year long, and that is likely how a statement like this would be taken by a new keeper.

I've seen studies that demonstrate that wild leopards tortoises eat mammal feces. In spite of this, I do not advocate mammal feces as part of the diet for captive tortoises.

In short, almost every sentence in the care sheet that is the subject of this thread is terrible, wrong advice. Opposite of what is correct and best.


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## EricW (Oct 26, 2022)

Tom said:


> Google search turns up several sources that say this:
> 
> Butcher's broom berries are poisonous to humans and dogs; when ingested, they can cause digestive problems and hemolysis, which is the rupturing of the red blood cells.
> As you noted, there is little research done on wild diets. What little there is to be found is often incomplete and just scratches the surface. In contrast, we do know the results of what they are typically fed and what is typically available in captivity.
> ...


In my opinion, we should not compare the GI tract of a tortoise to a mammal. Similarly between mammals as well. A white tail deer can eat something that will kill a cow, a cow can eat something that can kill a horse, and well goats can eat about everything including plastic and no issue (joke on the plastic). Butcher's Broom is also used as a human medicine, the root that is. 

There is more than one research that sites Ruscus as an important food source. Below is another from Greece, unfortunately also on Testudo hermanni. However, Herman's are the most studied it seems in my searches for information. My issue is finding them all and having access to them, or not willing to pay for them. In additon to time, I do have a job and family, so research time is limited.  Ruscus is a dominant plant in certain ecosystems well within the range of Testudo species. Noted also by other research in which tortoises use them as shelter and for thermo regulation.

I am trying to share for a point. Not intending to make one species, one paper, and leaps in decisions here, that is emotional. I do not also wish to start dumping research all over this thread. Most of what I see is correlation implies causation, lacking any scientific method and peer review. Not trying to pick a fight, but not looking to be discounted either. 


Published: March 2002
Changes in the Alyki Kitrous wetland in northern Greece: 1990–1999, and future prospects​
A. Hailey &
V. Goutner
_Biodiversity & Conservation_ *volume 11*, pages357–377 (2002)Cite this article

98 Accesses
9 Citations
Metricsdetails
Abstract​The Alyki wetland in northern Greece is a site of notable herpetological and ornithological importance. A large population of the tortoise _Testudo hermanni_ began to recover slowly (_r_ = 0.016) between 1990 and 1999, following catastrophic habitat destruction in 1980 and slow decline from 1980–1990. Heathland vegetation showed signs of desiccation, probably due to increased drainage by the salt works, including deterioration of _Crataegus_, _Ruscus_ and _Asphodelus_, and loss of formerly important food plants of tortoises. Activity and body mass condition of tortoises were reduced in summer in grassy heath habitats. Predation of artificial (chicken egg) tortoise nests increased, and the relative frequency of juveniles (about 1 % of samples) was lower than after severe habitat destruction or pesticide damage. These changes were attributed to an increasing population of badgers, _Meles meles_. Population levels of waders were lower in 1998/1999 than in 1988/1989, especially avocets (_Recurvirostra avosetta_) for which the site was internationally important. Breeding populations of most waders and larids also declined. Mediterranean gulls, for which Alyki was formerly the most important breeding area outside Russia, did not nest from 1990 to 1998, and nests were unsuccessful in 1999. Changes in breeding populations were due to falling lagoon levels, exposure to predators and vegetation encroachment on islet breeding sites. Midwinter waterfowl populations remained high or increased, however, as alternative feeding areas were available in the lagoon. Preservation of the habitats against development of the salt works and increasing desiccation are necessary to maintain the long-term conservation value of the Alyki site.


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## Tom (Oct 26, 2022)

EricW said:


> In my opinion, we should not compare the GI tract of a tortoise to a mammal. Similarly between mammals as well. A white tail deer can eat something that will kill a cow, a cow can eat something that can kill a horse, and well goats can eat about everything including plastic and no issue (joke on the plastic). Butcher's Broom is also used as a human medicine, the root that is.
> 
> There is more than one research that sites Ruscus as an important food source. Below is another from Greece, unfortunately also on Testudo hermanni. However, Herman's are the most studied it seems in my searches for information. My issue is finding them all and having access to them, or not willing to pay for them. In additon to time, I do have a job and family, so research time is limited. Ruscus is a dominant plant in certain ecosystems well within the range of Testudo species. Noted also by other research in which tortoises use them as shelter and for thermo regulation.
> 
> ...


If you wish to feed that food item to your tortoise(s) after reading about it in a paper like that, then go ahead. Let us know how it works out. You can do what I have done many times over the last decade and do side-by-side comparisons with multiple clutch mates, keeping all other variables as identical as possible.

Personally, I see no point and no need for it, when we have so many other foods that are known to be good and safe. I don't know what you would gain from adding that food item, but I am willing to learn. People trying out new things and sharing their results is how we advance tortoise care. I just see this as a case of, if it ain't broke don't fix it. I know what to feed a hermanni to maintain good health, get good growth, and have successful reproduction. If adding this berry every fall will do something good for them that I am not aware of, then I would like to learn all about it.

For further discussion, I don't equate the finding that at certain times of the year, one species of tortoise in part of its range eats unripe berries from this one plant species with: "So an occasional fruit based on season (especially if brumating) may be more inline with nature than many think." No one reading this will finish your quoted sentence and think about unripe Ruscus aculeatus berries for their tortoise in the fall. Instead, I think they will think about the sugary fruits available at the grocery store and feed that to their tortoise on a regular basis throughout the year, and I don't think that is a good thing.


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## MaNaAk (Oct 28, 2022)

LJL1982 said:


> Frightening isn't it. Generally the advice around the UK is appalling, even when those involved are "Exotics specialists" and academics. They also work with most of the zoos in the UK, they are the leading University effectively.


Well several years ago a vet have Jacky and Daisy thyroid medication when they came out of hibernation. The following year a different vet said they didn't need it!!!!

MaNaAk


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## zovick (Oct 29, 2022)

MaNaAk said:


> Well several years ago a vet have Jacky and Daisy thyroid medication when they came out of hibernation. The following year a different vet said they didn't need it!!!!
> 
> MaNaAk


Not surprising. Were either of these vets specialists in exotics? It certainly doesn't sound as though the first one was. That thyroid treatment was most likely totally unnecessary.


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