# Responding to posts or giving advice...



## CharlieM (Dec 25, 2015)

There are so many great passionate members here who are more than willing to jump in and offer advice. One of the unfortunate consequences of their replies is deceifering the information. While many people have lots of hands on experience with certain species others have little to none but still offer their opinion. Others just keep repeating information with zero experience. Perhaps this could be looked into. One thought that I observed while watching an educational video was to claim your experience. As an example every comment started with: 

1) I've been told by others... 
2) I've read... 
3) I've experienced... 

Obviously number three is the the reply that should be the most interesting. 

Any thoughts???


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## Yvonne G (Dec 25, 2015)

"Parroting", in my opinion, is not bad, providing the info being parroted is current info. Quite a lot of the advice I give is from something I've "been told by others," but an awful lot of it is from my own experience.

I like to say, "In my opinion.." letting people know this is how I do it and not it's necessarily set in stone.


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## dmmj (Dec 25, 2015)

a small amount of the information I give is I've been told most of it is from 30 years plus of turtle and tortoise experience


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## Tom (Dec 25, 2015)

You make a good point. All of us had to learn this stuff somewhere. Much of what I know I have read or been told by others. Of course, some of it is from personal experience too.

Yvonne, touched on my solution to this issue. Its all about the preface:

"I have no experience with species x, but in general you can increase humidity in _this_ way…"

Or, " I read in Vetter's book on Sulcatas and Leopards that _x, y, z…"

_
I don't mind new people offering help, as long as they preface it honestly and disclose the source of their helpful info. If the person asking for help sees "I saw Yvonne reply with xyz in another post…" that would carry more weight with me than "I read it on the internet…" or "I did a lot of research…"


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## Big Charlie (Dec 25, 2015)

I try to only report from my own experiences. "In my opinion" is a good preface. I rarely give much advice on this forum since I defer to those with much more experience than me. I am one of those who mostly comes here for help rather than to offer help.

I do have some experience in dealing with well-wishers offering unfounded opinions as I serve as an expert on another, unrelated forum. On that forum, where the non-expert opinions could be damaging, they are reported to the moderators. On this forum, there are plenty of people who know what they are talking about and they generally respond quickly enough to questions that I don't worry about getting erroneous advice.

People have a natural desire to help which might lead them to give advice that isn't based on fact. Most people who are familiar with forums check the post count of the poster to determine their trustworthiness.


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## Maggie Cummings (Dec 25, 2015)

I think something I have decided that's helpful is the listing of kept or favorite species under our signature. I just changed mine. I usually try hard to only give advice on Yvonne's or my personal experience. What I know, most anyhow, I learned from her advice, experience and mistakes. Then an accident, and all the sudden I'm getting my own water turtles. I read tortoise books, and the 'Net and disagree with a lot of what I read. I do things the way that work for me and my animals. So I specifically say "this is what I do". 
My hands on experience is with several species, but not, for instance, red/yellow foots, so I simply don't give advice on redfoots. I think that's how it should be done. How to police it, I don't know.


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## mike taylor (Dec 25, 2015)

I have reds and sulcatas . I've gotten most of my sulcata information from Tom . But some I have did my own research . My reds there's good information on the web . As far as the sulcata goes this place gives the best information . If you watch what's normal with your tortoises you will know something is going south . With my reds I've seen they don't like it to hot or bright . They love shady humid and warm . That's why my enclosure is half full sun and half covered . My sulcatas love to walk and graze . That's why I have a large enclosure with a lot of grass and weeds . In winter I feed mazuri and weeds . So what I'm saying there's no one stop shop to find the information .You have to take information from here and there and use your own to find what works best for your tortoises . Tom live in California I live in Texas its humid here not so much in California . So I don't need to worry about humidity like he does . Plus you look at how long the person has been keeping tortoises and their photos . This is someone who knows his stuff . I'd say if you are keeping a sulcata I'll always send you Tom's way . He will get you close but you will have to use your own mind and change and tweak stuff . I wish there was a book that gives you everything you need but there's not . So keep learning and watching your tortoises .


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## GeorgeUK (Dec 25, 2015)

Having kept Snakes my entire life, I have seen how fast and how often husbandry advise changes. I have recent experience being on the wrong side of outdated information... 
I recently got a Leopard Tortoise and unfortunately, and despite research, I set up my enclosure completely wrong. 
Outdated information is still thrown around and distributed via care sheets, pet store attendants and websites that are unfortunately easily accessible to the Layman. It may take a long time before general husbandry rules are adhered to, or even known by new keepers (and old stubborn ones!)
I remain cautious when handing out even the most basic advise as things change fast in the reptile world. We all parrot from time to time...
Thankfully here, I have been given great advise that seems to be widely accepted by experienced keepers.


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## mike taylor (Dec 25, 2015)

I agree this is one of the good places with great information . The thing I hate is when you tell someone something they don't fix the problems . Then a week later they are Bach here with something wrong and don't listen again.


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## teresaf (Dec 25, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> I agree this is one of the good places with great information . The thing I hate is when you tell someone something they don't fix the problems . Then a week later they are Bach here with something wrong and don't listen again.


You can't fix stupid. Lol 
All you can do is reply, rinse and repeat... Hopefully some sinks in.


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## teresaf (Dec 25, 2015)

Luckily, on this forum, anyone can pm anyone. If bad advice is given there are plenty of folks that will have no problem correcting it quickly. Nicely of course. Usually every question gets more than just one person to answer sooo...
Luckily I ONLY stalk this forum and no others so any advice I give is what I 'parrot' from here. I read a bunch... PLEASE understand that just because a person has never owned a sulcata doesn't mean they know less than a sulcata owner. Those of us that love tortoises don't always have room for the bigger ones but that doesn't stop us from reading everything here about them in the hopes of someday having a big enough home for one.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Dec 25, 2015)

CharlieM said:


> There are so many great passionate members here who are more than willing to jump in and offer advice. One of the unfortunate consequences of their replies is deceifering the information. While many people have lots of hands on experience with certain species others have little to none but still offer their opinion. Others just keep repeating information with zero experience. Perhaps this could be looked into. One thought that I observed while watching an educational video was to claim your experience. As an example every comment started with:
> 
> 1) I've been told by others...
> 2) I've read...
> ...


I understand where your coming from and that's why I check out the profiles and I to wish we would put more info. In the profiles like torts that we have . Time we've had them . But people would just leave it blank ! So this is the best place we have !


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## CharlieM (Dec 26, 2015)

Big Charlie said:


> I try to only report from my own experiences. "In my opinion" is a good preface. I rarely give much advice on this forum since I defer to those with much more experience than me. I am one of those who mostly comes here for help rather than to offer help.
> 
> I do have some experience in dealing with well-wishers offering unfounded opinions as I serve as an expert on another, unrelated forum. On that forum, where the non-expert opinions could be damaging, they are reported to the moderators. On this forum, there are plenty of people who know what they are talking about and they generally respond quickly enough to questions that I don't worry about getting erroneous advice.
> 
> People have a natural desire to help which might lead them to give advice that isn't based on fact. Most people who are familiar with forums check the post count of the poster to determine their trustworthiness.





I will respectfully disagree with "in my opinion" as a good preface. That is what we already see to much.


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## Tom (Dec 26, 2015)

CharlieM said:


> I will respectfully disagree with "in my opinion" as a good preface. That is what we already see to much.



This is a tough call. When I make an assertion with certainty its because I am 100% sure of what I'm saying based on experience and first hand, hard earned knowledge. For a new person whose has been reading all sorts of info on the internet, the delivery method of good advice can be just as important as the good advice. Sometimes "in my opinion…" or "I do it this way…" is a less jagged pill to swallow than simple cold hard facts that contradict what they have read else where. It really depends on the receiver. The majority of people have thanked me for a no non-sense approach, or at least said they understand it. A few have been offended by simple fact sharing and left in a huff. That is not good for their tortoise, so I try to prevent these abrupt departures by delivering the message in a more diplomatic way when possible. "In my opinion…" is sometimes received better than "Just do this, cause I said so…"

Please share your thoughts.


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## Pearly (Dec 26, 2015)

We all have something to learn and contribute, even the "newest nubs" such as myself. This is what makes TFO such great place. We just need to use common sense taking any advise. Heck, I at times even double check the professional advise (vets) when something "just doesn't sit right with me". Coming to TFO for advise is the 1st right step, doing your homework is 2nd, doing both gives us best chances of making right informed choices. Every post here has potential of helping another keeper in some way. TFO is a greatest place to learn!


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## Careym13 (Dec 26, 2015)

This topic has come up before. I did before and I still think that if you are going to post a statement, photo, opinion, or whatever in a public forum that you are opening yourself up for a variety of responses. I feel like trying to regulate the way people respond to posts (other than by the forum rules already set in place), we would just be taking away from what has made TFO so special...a group of passionate people not afraid to share their opinions. Everyone just needs to be themselves, go with the flow, and not take things so personally.


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## CharlieM (Dec 26, 2015)

Careym13 said:


> This topic has come up before. I did before and I still think that if you are going to post a statement, photo, opinion, or whatever in a public forum that you are opening yourself up for a variety of responses. I feel like trying to regulate the way people respond to posts (other than by the forum rules already set in place), we would just be taking away from what has made TFO so special...a group of passionate people not afraid to share their opinions. Everyone just needs to be themselves, go with the flow, and not take things so personally.



I'm certainly not one to want to regulate. That's not what this is about. 
Just discussing how people choose to deliver information. 
"In my opinion" is far from concrete and very grey.


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## leigti (Dec 26, 2015)

CharlieM said:


> I will respectfully disagree with "in my opinion" as a good preface. That is what we already see to much.


I understand what you're saying. I have found that saying "in my opinion" at times helps to sort of soften the approach some. Which is hard for me to do because I tend to say it like it is or how I see it and that offends people sometimes. 
It seems like so many people are looking for the official correct information but then question it when it is given to them, and question the qualifications of the person giving it. 
And when it comes right down to it, everything is just an opinion. Even if their scientific proof people still form an opinion about it, and decide whether they want to believe it or follow it.


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## cdmay (Dec 26, 2015)

Tom said:


> You make a good point. All of us had to learn this stuff somewhere. Much of what I know I have read or been told by others. Of course, some of it is from personal experience too.
> 
> Yvonne, touched on my solution to this issue. Its all about the preface:
> 
> ...


Agree. Citing a reputable source, or published information is always a good thing. Reporting on your own, actual hands on experience is also invaluable.
But parroting some generalization or internet bilge, not so great.


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## leigti (Dec 26, 2015)

I don't think there is anything wrong with parroting correct information even if you do not have hands on experience with that particular type of tortoise. How many times a day or a week is the same exact question asked? And therefore how many times is the exact same information given out? I'm talking basic care questions here. Sometimes number matter how often a person is referred to or actually given the link to a thread they somehow don't bother to read it. And if it wasn't for people who are patient enough to repeatedly answer these questions, even if they are just repeating information they have gotten here, then the information would not get to these people.


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## Tom (Dec 26, 2015)

leigti said:


> I don't think there is anything wrong with parroting correct information even if you do not have hands on experience with that particular type of tortoise. How many times a day or a week is the same exact question asked? And therefore how many times is the exact same information given out? I'm talking basic care questions here. Sometimes number matter how often a person is referred to or actually given the link to a thread they somehow don't bother to read it. And if it wasn't for people who are patient enough to repeatedly answer these questions, even if they are just repeating information they have gotten here, then the information would not get to these people.



I think you have a point here too. If someone has read responses that say sand is a bad substrate 500 times, I see no reason why they can't tell a new person sand is not a good substrate. 

This really is a case-by-case issue.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Dec 26, 2015)

There is nothing wrong with " parroting" but way back when I was in grade school a teacher proved people are bad parrots , if you put 10 people in a row , and you tell no. 1 person something buy the time the story gets to no. 10 person the story is a mess ! As always @Tom is right but don't rule out @ CharlieM 's point out cause he has a point . Some new people do miss say great advice to the point it's bad advice . Hope all had a great Christmas and many more !


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## teresaf (Dec 26, 2015)

CharlieM said:


> I'm certainly not one to want to regulate. That's not what this is about.
> Just discussing how people choose to deliver information.
> "In my opinion" is far from concrete and very grey.


Many people have heard the same info so many times they really have no idea who said it first so they really can't quote the reputable source even though the info IS correct. In that case 'In my opinion' doesn't cut it. I have said something like 'many here on this forum....'.


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## teresaf (Dec 26, 2015)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> There is nothing wrong with " parroting" but way back when I was in grade school a teacher proved people are bad parrots , if you put 10 people in a row , and you tell no. 1 person something buy the time the story gets to no. 10 person the story is a mess ! As always @Tom is right but don't rule out @ CharlieM 's point out cause he has a point . Some new people do miss say great advice to the point it's bad advice . Hope all had a great Christmas and many more !



Yeah, luckily this isn't exactly the same though. This is like the first person telling all the rest and then asking all those people to repeat it...story may change a BIT but not that much. Lol


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## Big Charlie (Dec 26, 2015)

CharlieM said:


> I will respectfully disagree with "in my opinion" as a good preface. That is what we already see to much.


I tend to use "in my opinion" even in matters where I'm 100% sure of my facts.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Dec 26, 2015)

teresaf said:


> Yeah, luckily this isn't exactly the same though. This is like the first person telling all the rest and then asking all those people to repeat it...story may change a BIT but not that much. Lol


It is the same thing and after you get 5000 posts you'll see it more and more ! But have a great day


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## Turtlepete (Dec 27, 2015)

Big Charlie said:


> I try to only report from my own experiences. "In my opinion" is a good preface. I rarely give much advice on this forum since I defer to those with much more experience than me. I am one of those who mostly comes here for help rather than to offer help.



To chime in here, the difficulty with opinion is that in the modern age it has become viewed as a protection to whatever statement is made afterward. These days, we seem to have some sort of misguided belief that opinion protects someone from being wrong. This is how concrete scientific facts such as climate change have become a political opinion. If I am speaking of something that is a fact, I'm not going to preface it with "in my opinion", as that would devalue whatever comes next. I'm not going to say "In my opinion, the earth is round" just to soften the blow when I'm dealing with someone with the misguided belief that the earth is round. It can be your opinion that roses are prettier than violets; it can also be your opinion that sulcatas should be raised aquatic because the desert floods every summer (this claim was made here once). The former is based on your perception of beauty and quite subject to opinion, the latter is based on your misguided stupidity and refusal to educate yourself. 

tldr; opinion does not protect you from being wrong, and _believing that it does _is incredibly damaging to a community where we deal with living organisms, the husbandry of which is mainly based on _*fact*. _It can be your opinion that redfoots are more suited to african climates; this claim would make you wrong and, quite plainly, stupid, and prefacing it with "in my opinion" does not protect you from being wrong.

To further discuss the difficulty with opinion, we have to address something mentioned here. Using "in my opinion" to soften the blow. We don't want to chase off sensitive new members by hitting them with cold hard facts, so we use a more diplomatic approach to appeal to their sensitivity. The problem here is we are treating the symptoms of a problem that we, as a whole, as a global society, have created. Catering to sensitivity is what has gotten us where we are. The more we cater to sensitivity, the more sensitive we as a culture become, until we can't hear the cold hard facts because god forbid it might offend us. This is probably one of the most damaging phenomena to plague the spread of information in the modern age, and its a problem we are contributing to every day.

Want to be diplomatic? Don't be an ***. If someone says something blatantly wrong, like "its safe for my tortoise to roam the house", don't call them an idiot who is hell-bent on the destruction of their shelled companion, someone who eats babies and dines with the devil. Emotion serves no purpose. Quite plainly tell them, "You are wrong. Here is why". This is all that is needed. Excess emotion never helps anything.

Now, "parroting" as it has come to be called is an altogether different beast. In some ways, it serves a purpose; people can "parrot" information they learned from a more experienced keeper to help educate newcomers. This is a good thing. But the issue is that this information is quite often not as trustworthy as it may seem, and some parroted information on this forum is completely wrong, yet repeated over and over again because it is accepted as the norm. This is where an issue arises. When a group accepts something wrong as the norm, nobody bothers to challenge the claim or educate themselves beyond the false claim because they have been led to believe in its veracity. No advancement is made because we already think we have all the pieces of the puzzle. 

Lets be honest folks; buried under the dozens of threads about a tortoise wearing a hat or a sweater (cute enough), the main goal of this forum as I see it is advancement in husbandry of the shelled animals we all know and love. If you want to contribute to that advancement, educate yourself as best as possible. If you repeat something, research it to the best of your ability to ensure it's true. Challenge claims that seem senseless. Take everything you hear with a grain of salt. 

Happy Holidays.


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## leigti (Dec 27, 2015)

So let's hear some examples of blatantly wrong information that is excepted as truth by The majority of people on this forum. You say people are parroting wrong information so give examples. And it is not my job to fix society and to shelter all the thin skinned people who can't take information is fact. If I choose to "soften the blow" then I will, it depends on the situation and quite frankly the mood I'm in. There are a whole lot of societal issues that I have no control over.
I think when it comes right down to it we are here to learn and help animals, but that means you need to deal with the people who are ultimately taking care of these animals. There are many ways to do that, many approaches. And I think as a group over all the members of this forum pretty much cover all the approaches. Which is a good thing in the end.


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## mike taylor (Dec 27, 2015)

I can show you two examples of tortoises raised right and wrong . Harry was youngish when I got him Yvonne and Tom helped me setup the right enclosure for him . Sally was in Austin Texas in the dry air hardly no humidity so you can say semi arid environment . Look at the different carapace shapes .The first picture is Sally the second is Harry .
Pictures say a thousand words. I will take advise from this forum over the net any day .


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## SteveW (Dec 27, 2015)

I can't give you 'blatantly wrong' but an example of information that is at least logically curious is the discrepancy between organic greens (highly recommended, don't buy anything but) and pressure treated wood (best way to build an outdoor pen). From a toxicological standpoint, this makes no sense. Any produce in a store is treated with materials specifically designed for low vertebrate toxicity, a short half life, and minimal residual. Could there be health issues? Of course. Evidence along that line? Nope. 
Conversely, pressure treated wood is pressure treated with cadmium, chromium, and arsenic. All highly toxic metals, all can persist for decades and all have been shown to leach into surrounding soil. While I know of no examples of effects from the latter, from a risk analysis perspective it presents a far greater threat. This is not reflected in the aforementioned common knowledge. 

Regarding parroting; in addition to being annoying, it is hardly compelling. I don't refer here to linked research articles or 'here's what I have observed' statements, but the drag race to be the first to refer people to the forum care sheets. The care sheets aren't hard to find, for that matter, Tom isn't hard to find. No intermediaries yelling 'me too' are needed. 
Also of dubious value are the self-referential statements like 'This forum has the best information'. Really, what source doesn't think that?

While I concur that biological organism and there care are more fact than opinion, I don't think I'm young enough to ascribe all societies ills that direction. 

Geesh, what a rant. Somebody needs a beer.


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## teresaf (Dec 27, 2015)

SteveW said:


> I can't give you 'blatantly wrong' but an example of information that is at least logically curious is the discrepancy between organic greens (highly recommended, don't buy anything but) and pressure treated wood (best way to build an outdoor pen). From a toxicological standpoint, this makes no sense. Any produce in a store is treated with materials specifically designed for low vertebrate toxicity, a short half life, and minimal residual. Could there be health issues? Of course. Evidence along that line? Nope.
> Conversely, pressure treated wood is pressure treated with cadmium, chromium, and arsenic. All highly toxic metals, all can persist for decades and all have been shown to leach into surrounding soil. While I know of no examples of effects from the latter, from a risk analysis perspective it presents a far greater threat. This is not reflected in the aforementioned common knowledge.
> 
> Regarding parroting; in addition to being annoying, it is hardly compelling. I don't refer here to linked research articles or 'here's what I have observed' statements, but the drag race to be the first to refer people to the forum care sheets. The care sheets aren't hard to find, for that matter, Tom isn't hard to find. No intermediaries yelling 'me too' are needed.
> ...



How about a six pack dude....!


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## DutchieAmanda (Dec 27, 2015)

Turtlepete said:


> Emotion serves no purpose. Quite plainly tell them, "You are wrong. Here is why". This is all that is needed. Excess emotion never helps anything.



Ever thought about moving to The Netherlands?  They say us Dutchies are blunt, haha!

However, in my opinion () if it helps our cause to promote a better care for our shelled friends, a bit of softening could be beneficial. If this makes it easier for others to accept your advice... 

I also think it's a cultural thing. Because I know Dutchies are often said to be blunt, I try to be extra polite... 

Enjoy your beer!


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## Yvonne G (Dec 27, 2015)

If I were to say, "in my experience, blah, blah..." it really wouldn't mean much because in my experience, I raised a clutch of pine cone-looking yellow foots, a very pyramided leopard, and a couple of pretty bumpy Aldabran tortoises. So seeing those, why would anyone be interested in taking my advice?

On the other hand, I've been doing rehab on sick and injured turtles and tortoises for over 20 years, so "my experience" in that area is very good. I have a very good track record there.

But the way I raise my babies now, reverts back to all the info I've read and learned here on the Forum.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Dec 27, 2015)

Turtlepete said:


> To chime in here, the difficulty with opinion is that in the modern age it has become viewed as a protection to whatever statement is made afterward. These days, we seem to have some sort of misguided belief that opinion protects someone from being wrong. This is how concrete scientific facts such as climate change have become a political opinion. If I am speaking of something that is a fact, I'm not going to preface it with "in my opinion", as that would devalue whatever comes next. I'm not going to say "In my opinion, the earth is round" just to soften the blow when I'm dealing with someone with the misguided belief that the earth is round. It can be your opinion that roses are prettier than violets; it can also be your opinion that sulcatas should be raised aquatic because the desert floods every summer (this claim was made here once). The former is based on your perception of beauty and quite subject to opinion, the latter is based on your misguided stupidity and refusal to educate yourself.
> 
> tldr; opinion does not protect you from being wrong, and _believing that it does _is incredibly damaging to a community where we deal with living organisms, the husbandry of which is mainly based on _*fact*. _It can be your opinion that redfoots are more suited to african climates; this claim would make you wrong and, quite plainly, stupid, and prefacing it with "in my opinion" does not protect you from being wrong.
> 
> ...


You have a great gift for words that I wish I had at my age , and you use them very well ! I hope you know I mean this and I'm not trying to be silly


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## SteveW (Dec 27, 2015)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> You have a great gift for words that I wish I had at my age , and you use them very well ! I hope you know I mean this and I'm not trying to be silly



I think you mean, "in my experience...", ha


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## Tom (Dec 27, 2015)

Turtlepete said:


> To chime in here, the difficulty with opinion is that in the modern age it has become viewed as a protection to whatever statement is made afterward. These days, we seem to have some sort of misguided belief that opinion protects someone from being wrong. This is how concrete scientific facts such as climate change have become a political opinion. If I am speaking of something that is a fact, I'm not going to preface it with "in my opinion", as that would devalue whatever comes next. I'm not going to say "In my opinion, the earth is round" just to soften the blow when I'm dealing with someone with the misguided belief that the earth is round. It can be your opinion that roses are prettier than violets; it can also be your opinion that sulcatas should be raised aquatic because the desert floods every summer (this claim was made here once). The former is based on your perception of beauty and quite subject to opinion, the latter is based on your misguided stupidity and refusal to educate yourself.
> 
> tldr; opinion does not protect you from being wrong, and _believing that it does _is incredibly damaging to a community where we deal with living organisms, the husbandry of which is mainly based on _*fact*. _It can be your opinion that redfoots are more suited to african climates; this claim would make you wrong and, quite plainly, stupid, and prefacing it with "in my opinion" does not protect you from being wrong.
> 
> ...



On the whole, I agree with your entire rant, as usual.

My issue with a "Just-the-facts…" approach is that some people mistake my matter-of-fact, emotionless statements as mean, degrading or insulting. Of course it is there own fault if they are some sort of hyper-sensitive baby that was raised getting those "participation trophies" and told every day what a special and unique snowflake they are, but the end result if they get themselves all in a tiff is that they leave. Some call me names and leave, or some just leave quietly and don't come back. The end result in either case is that their tortoise will not receive the help it needs. If my goal is to help a tortoise, I am forced to go through their human caretaker. Failure to deal with the human caretaker in a way that they are accepting and appreciative of, results in my own failure to help their tortoise.

It is in the interest of helping the tortoises of the world that I have chosen to try to be more diplomatic and cater to the wide variety of human emotion that is "out there" in the world.


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## Tom (Dec 27, 2015)

SteveW said:


> Geesh, what a rant. Somebody needs a beer.



If you are referring to Pete, I am not sure he is old enough to indulge in beer just yet. He may type and form sentences with the wisdom and experience of a 50 year old ivy league professor, but he is actually still a young man.

And you are not such a bad wordsmith yourself Mr. Steve.


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## SteveW (Dec 27, 2015)

Tom said:


> If you are referring to Pete, I am not sure he is old enough to indulge in beer just yet. He may type and form sentences with the wisdom and experience of a 50 year old ivy league professor, but he is actually still a young man.
> 
> And you are not such a bad wordsmith yourself Mr. Steve.



I was actually implying (or trying to imply) that my rant was indicative of needing a beer (all better, by the way). 
I'll keep working on the word smithery.


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## jaizei (Dec 27, 2015)

Turtlepete said:


> To chime in here, the difficulty with opinion is that in the modern age it has become viewed as a protection to whatever statement is made afterward. These days, we seem to have some sort of misguided belief that opinion protects someone from being wrong. This is how concrete scientific facts such as climate change have become a political opinion. If I am speaking of something that is a fact, I'm not going to preface it with "in my opinion", as that would devalue whatever comes next. I'm not going to say "In my opinion, the earth is round" just to soften the blow when I'm dealing with someone with the misguided belief that the earth is round. It can be your opinion that roses are prettier than violets; it can also be your opinion that sulcatas should be raised aquatic because the desert floods every summer (this claim was made here once). The former is based on your perception of beauty and quite subject to opinion, the latter is based on your misguided stupidity and refusal to educate yourself.
> 
> tldr; opinion does not protect you from being wrong, and _believing that it does _is incredibly damaging to a community where we deal with living organisms, the husbandry of which is mainly based on _*fact*. _It can be your opinion that redfoots are more suited to african climates; this claim would make you wrong and, quite plainly, stupid, and prefacing it with "in my opinion" does not protect you from being wrong.
> 
> ...



Except in your example, they wouldn't be blatantly wrong. I think you're confusing fact and opinion. It's the opinion of some on this forum that roaming is unsafe. It is not fact. Unless you've been in this hypothetical person's house and would like to make substantive argument.


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## jaizei (Dec 27, 2015)

I am just amazed at the attitude that is regularly displayed on the forum; it seems to be a case of not learning from the past. All of that _wrong _information that we constantly hear about in books, etc was the _right _information at one time. Saying that parroting is okay if it's something 'we' agree with is ridiculous. Parroting is bad, always. Someone who is 'parroting' is not able to make the distinction between good and bad advice and is just repeating the most popular opinion or opinion of people that are popular. I can not think of any reason why this behavior should be acceptable in any way. If someone 'learns' something, I take that to mean that they actually have some kind of basic understanding. Someone parroting does not. That difference seems to be lost here.


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## leigti (Dec 27, 2015)

DutchieAmanda said:


> Ever thought about moving to The Netherlands?  They say us Dutchies are blunt, haha!
> 
> However, in my opinion () if it helps our cause to promote a better care for our shelled friends, a bit of softening could be beneficial. If this makes it easier for others to accept your advice...
> 
> ...


I need to move there. I would fit in much better.


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## leigti (Dec 27, 2015)

jaizei said:


> I am just amazed at the attitude that is regularly displayed on the forum; it seems to be a case of not learning from the past. All of that _wrong _information that we constantly hear about in books, etc was the _right _information at one time. Saying that parroting is okay if it's something 'we' agree with is ridiculous. Parroting is bad, always. Someone who is 'parroting' is not able to make the distinction between good and bad advice and is just repeating the most popular opinion or opinion of people that are popular. I can not think of any reason why this behavior should be acceptable in any way. If someone 'learns' something, I take that to mean that they actually have some kind of basic understanding. Someone parroting does not. That difference seems to be lost here.


I guess it all comes down to your definition of parroting. When I say that I am parroting I mean that I am repeating what I have LEARNED from this forum. I think you do have to learn something before you can repeat it as instructional with any sort of justification. I haven't really seen examples of people just repeating what they have heard without understanding it. I'm sure it's out there I just haven't seen it as far as I know. 
Sometimes I try to point out to very new people that the information from books, many Internet sites, pet stores, and even veterinarians is often not correct and is "old" information that has now been updated. Heck, I even had to ignore the advice given to me from a well-established and respected college professor who has done decades of research on reptiles. The information she gave me was just flat out wrong for my Russian tortoise. But how could I tell her that? Actually I told her anyway, she just looked at me but I don't think she believed me.
There was some comment earlier about care sheets etc. being easy to find, I agree. However people still don't seem to find them. Even when the links are provided to them or they are referred there. The care sheets are a great place to start for a new person. But it takes a little time and experience to know how to tweak the information to meet your situation. Maybe that needs to be pointed out more. But if you get too technical at the very beginning people just get overwhelmed and tune out.


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## leigti (Dec 27, 2015)

OK Tom, now I know what my problem is. I never got a participation trophy, and I have never been told I'm A special snowflake :-( :-( :-(


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## Tom (Dec 27, 2015)

jaizei said:


> Except in your example, they wouldn't be blatantly wrong. I think you're confusing fact and opinion. It's the opinion of some on this forum that roaming is unsafe. It is not fact.



Tell this to the person who squashed their tortoises head in the door. Tell this to the person whose tortoise swallowed a 2' sewing pin. Tell this to the countless people seen by my vet friends with foreign body ingestions, broken legs and cracked shells from being kicked or stepped on, or dog mauling cases. Tell this to all the people treating their tropical species of tortoises for RIs because ether got too cold walking around on the floor. Tell this to the people who lost their tortoise because it walked out a door left open.

As usual, you are wrong…


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## Tom (Dec 27, 2015)

jaizei said:


> Parroting is bad, always. Someone who is 'parroting' is not able to make the distinction between good and bad advice and is just repeating the most popular opinion or opinion of people that are popular.



Wrong again.

If I tell a person who has been blind from birth that the sky is blue, and the next day that person "parrots" this info to another blind friend, why is that "bad"? It is correct and factual in every way, yet our blind friend has no possible way of making any distinction of whether that is good or bad advice.

If I told the blind person the sky was green with yellow polka dots and they parroted this info, then it could be construed as "bad", or at least inaccurate.

Whether parroting is good or bad depends on what is being parroted. When I used to parrot the old incorrect info about sulcatas needing an arid environment and that they'd get a RI or shell rot from damp conditions, I was wrong and that was some "bad" parroting. When I now parrot something I've learned from another tortoise keeper that is factual and accurate, I would consider that "good" parroting.

When members of this forum that have never kept a tortoise on sand and never suffered through the horrors associated with a sand impacted tortoise tell other people that sand substrate is dangerous and should be avoided, I, for one, think that is a very GOOD thing.

When people who have never withheld water from their tortoise tell new keepers that tortoises actually DON'T get all the water they need from their food, how is that bad?

When a new keeper with a smooth sulcata parrots to another new sulcata keeper that rabbit pellets are not, in fact, a good substrate and that this practice will likely contribute to pyramiding, even though they themselves have never grown a pyramided tortoise on rabbit pellets, this is not a bad thing.


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## DutchieAmanda (Dec 28, 2015)

Tom said:


> If I tell a person who has been blind from birth that the sky is blue, and the next day that person "parrots" this info to another blind friend, why is that "bad"? It is correct and factual in every way, yet our blind friend has no possible way of making any distinction of whether that is good or bad advice.
> 
> If I told the blind person the sky was green with yellow polka dots and they parroted this info, then it could be construed as "bad", or at least inaccurate.



I think the problem is that many people (in general, not specifically on this forum) don't know what is good or bad advice. So they parrot what they read on the internet somewhere or heard from a neighbour. 90% of the people are not critical enough on the source of the information...

Luckily, I think on this forum it works quit well because truly knowleadgable people are often around to correct if neccessary. But I just signed out of a Facebook group on redfoots because they kept parroting that it is okay to let your tropical tortoise wander around your house...


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## ZEROPILOT (Dec 28, 2015)

It is helpful to ad things like IMO, or "I've learned on this forum", or "It has been my experience". To help a person that asks a question gauge how certain you are about your reply. A suggestion is a suggestion and something that is based on first hand experience may be something more serious to take into consideration.


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## Lyn W (Dec 28, 2015)

I do 'parrot' a lot if what I've learned if it seems to be the general consensus of many - but that's what learning is - listening to, and understanding - I have faith in the advice of members who are have far more first hand experienced than me. That's not to say what works for one works for all as everyone's circumstances are different, but I for one welcome all suggestions when I need help whether it comes first, second or third hand from any members. I often make sure I include that any advice I give was recommended to me, or point out that I am still a novice so as not to give any false impression that I am a font of all tort knowledge.
I very often reply to posts even if I can't give any advice; I tell them that someone with more experience will be along soon or simply point them in the right direction of other threads, but there is nothing worse than asking for help and no one responding at all. So even if it is just to say sorry can't help but I will tag someone who I think can etc - at least it lets the poster know their post is being read.


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## Tom (Dec 28, 2015)

DutchieAmanda said:


> I think the problem is that many people (in general, not specifically on this forum) don't know what is good or bad advice. So they parrot what they read on the internet somewhere or heard from a neighbour. 90% of the people are not critical enough on the source of the information...
> 
> Luckily, I think on this forum it works quit well because truly knowleadgable people are often around to correct if neccessary. But I just signed out of a Facebook group on redfoots because they kept parroting that it is okay to let your tropical tortoise wander around your house...



I agree on all points, and this is why my argument is that parroting _can_ be bad, but it isn't _always_ bad.

The moral of the story, for me, is: Don't repeat bad info. Like your RF example,

I wish you had chosen to stay and fight, instead of leave. There were some old timers here that tried to drive me away early on when I started talked about pyramiding and growing smooth tortoises in humid, well hydrated conditions. I fought it out and proved my points with facts and evidence, now look at all the healthy, smooth, well hydrated tortoises on this site and around the world. You can't win a fight that you walk away from.


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## Tom (Dec 28, 2015)

Lyn W said:


> I do 'parrot' a lot if what I've learned if it seems to be the general consensus of many - but that's what learning is - listening to, and understanding - I have faith in the advice of members who are have far more first hand experienced than me. That's not to say what works for one works for all as everyone's circumstances are different, but I for one welcome all suggestions when I need help whether it comes first, second or third hand from any members. I often make sure I include that any advice I give was recommended to me, or point out that I am still a novice so as not to give any false impression that I am a font of all tort knowledge.
> I very often reply to posts even if I can't give any advice; I tell them that someone with more experience will be along soon or simply point them in the right direction of other threads, but there is nothing worse than asking for help and no one responding at all. So even if it is just to say sorry can't help but I will tag someone who I think can etc - at least it lets the poster know their post is being read.



Your helpful attitude, and the helpful attitude of others here is a large part of why this is the best and most active tortoise forum in the whole world. I don't want to see what you described above curtailed because someone like jaizei thinks what you are doing is "…bad, always." It isn't. Its great and it helps people and their tortoises. Knowing that someone cares and is interested in their problem is often enough to encourage new people to stick around and get the help they need.


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## jaizei (Dec 28, 2015)

Tom said:


> Tell this to the person who squashed their tortoises head in the door. Tell this to the person whose tortoise swallowed a 2' sewing pin. Tell this to the countless people seen by my vet friends with foreign body ingestions, broken legs and cracked shells from being kicked or stepped on, or dog mauling cases. Tell this to all the people treating their tropical species of tortoises for RIs because ether got too cold walking around on the floor. Tell this to the people who lost their tortoise because it walked out a door left open.
> 
> As usual, you are wrong…



Obviously, in those instances it was not safe because the people practicing it did not take the necessary steps to ensure that it was. It is not a hard concept when you think logically. Some people drive recklessly; do you still drive? How many statistics would you like me to post about unsafe drivers causing accidents and deaths before you accept the fact that driving is always unsafe and no one should ever drive.


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## jaizei (Dec 28, 2015)

Tom said:


> Wrong again.
> 
> If I tell a person who has been blind from birth that the sky is blue, and the next day that person "parrots" this info to another blind friend, why is that "bad"? It is correct and factual in every way, yet our blind friend has no possible way of making any distinction of whether that is good or bad advice.
> 
> ...



Perhaps the wrong information that needs to be corrected wouldn't need be if parrots hadn't spread it so well. You're trying to fix a problem using the same flawed method that created it.


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## Tom (Dec 28, 2015)

jaizei said:


> Obviously, in those instances it was not safe because the people practicing it did not take the necessary steps to ensure that it was. It is not a hard concept when you think logically. Some people drive recklessly; do you still drive? How many statistics would you like me to post about unsafe drivers causing accidents and deaths before you accept the fact that driving is always unsafe and no one should ever drive.



Good example. Very good. I'm not going to say no one should drive, but are you going to post your statistics of accidents and fatalities and _then_ argue that driving is _not_ dangerous? We both agree that driving _is_ dangerous.

The difference between driving and letting a tortoise run loose, which are both dangerous activities, is at least twofold:
1. There is benefit to driving that outweighs the risk, at least for me. Not so in the case of free-roaming tortoises.
2. There is not a practical, safe alliterative to driving. To do business, earn a living, and maintain my families household, driving is a necessity in my situation. There is not a safer, better, easy alternative. In the case of free roaming tortoises, there _is _a safer, better, easy alternative. Simply put them in the right enclosure.


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## Tom (Dec 28, 2015)

jaizei said:


> Perhaps the wrong information that needs to be corrected wouldn't need be if parrots hadn't spread it so well. You're trying to fix a problem using the same flawed method that created it.



This is an age old problem, isn't it? A sword in the hand of a bad guy is bad. A sword in the hand of a good guy is good, yes? No?

Your argument is that all swords are bad all the time. I disagree.

Someone parroting good info is absolutely a defense against someone parroting bad info. We see examples here all the time. To use my previous sand substrate example: A new person will join and relate that they've read somewhere that sand was a great substrate for "desert" species. Several long term members, who have never kept a tortoise on sand, will parrot info they've learned from Yvonne, Will, Ascott or someone else who DOES have first hand experience keeping a tortoise on sand, and politely and tactfully let them know that they've been misinformed. At some point, a member with first hand experience will join the discussion and confirm with experience based examples what the new poster has already been told.


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## WithLisa (Dec 28, 2015)

In general I also would never recommend to let a tortoise roam in the house. But it's not a _fact _that roaming is always dangerous and an enclosure is always safe. According to statistics an encloure might be safer in most cases, but it depends on the situation and the enclosure. 
I also never understood this "no sandy substrate" rule. So many people here keep their tortoises outside on natural dirt (which always contains sand, depending on the soil quality it can even consist mostly of sand) without problems. But if someone says they use a mix of soil and a little sand everybody advises against it. I always wondered about that...
The only cases of impaction I've ever seen were because of orchid bark. 

I don't mind parroting, we don't have to experience everything ourselves to learn from it, but I try to only parrot information if I really understand and agree on it.


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## jaizei (Dec 28, 2015)

Tom said:


> This is an age old problem, isn't it? A sword in the hand of a bad guy is bad. A sword in the hand of a good guy is good, yes? No?
> 
> Your argument is that all swords are bad all the time. I disagree.
> 
> Someone parroting good info is absolutely a defense against someone parroting bad info. We see examples here all the time. To use my previous sand substrate example: A new person will join and relate that they've read somewhere that sand was a great substrate for "desert" species. Several long term members, who have never kept a tortoise on sand, will parrot info they've learned from Yvonne, Will, Ascott or someone else who DOES have first hand experience keeping a tortoise on sand, and politely and tactfully let them know that they've been misinformed. At some point, a member with first hand experience will join the discussion and confirm with experience based examples what the new poster has already been told.




About that....


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## ZEROPILOT (Dec 28, 2015)

Looks like a good time for a parrot to mention some coiled bulbs can cause eye damage.............


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## Pearly (Dec 28, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> If I were to say, "in my experience, blah, blah..." it really wouldn't mean much because in my experience, I raised a clutch of pine cone-looking yellow foots, a very pyramided leopard, and a couple of pretty bumpy Aldabran tortoises. So seeing those, why would anyone be interested in taking my advice?
> 
> On the other hand, I've been doing rehab on sick and injured turtles and tortoises for over 20 years, so "my experience" in that area is very good. I have a very good track record there.
> 
> But the way I raise my babies now, reverts back to all the info I've read and learned here on the Forum.


Yvonne! I just love to read your posts!


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## wellington (Dec 28, 2015)

In my opinion, if those of us that parrot, didn't parrot, very few people would get the help they are asking for. We have very few members really, with years of experienced with different species that participate in helping others. I parrot what I learned from tfo and specially from a particular member that has done the homework, done the experiments, has the experience, goes above and beyond to help people and freely shares all this with us and a person i feel is very honest and upfront and that I would trust with my life. The few experienced members that participate, just can't be on here 24\7
Also, you don't have to be an experienced keeper of anything to know how to do it correctly, if the person or place you learned from can back it up with proof. Teachers, doctors and many other professionals parrot every day. As for how I will say things, well depends on my mood. Some days I don't mind holding your hand and stroking your sensitive self, other days I may be sick of reading the same question, seconded thread, same day, asking the same question, that I have read for the thousandth time since joining and might just give it to you straight. After all, I'm human, and that's just the way humans were developed, to have different moods.


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## Maggie Cummings (Dec 28, 2015)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Looks like a good time for a parrot to mention some coiled bulbs can cause eye damage.............



I won't "parrot jack sh** about coiled bulbs. I had a yearling Sulcata named Tony Stewart, who was blinded by a coiled bulb, his clutch mate suffered damage in one eye, and I got rid of the third before he showed any damage. Tony went thru more pain then I have ever before or since see in a young tort. His eyes ran like rivers, they were swollen and red, he drooled, he couldn't eat. It took almost a year and lots of pain injections, eye drops and teaching him how to be blind, for him to be almost alright.
I don't "parrot" coil bulbs are bad, I hurt 3 tortoises because I didn't know. Now I scream it from the rooftops. That, gentlemen, is my *personal *experience.

Us Germans are blunt as well....


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## Maggie Cummings (Dec 29, 2015)

Tony was blinded before we knew some of the bulbs were bad. I didn't "parrot", I experienced first hand. Tony hurt so bad it would make me cry. He'd use those hard scaly legs to rubs his eyes more, it was horrid. I spent hours with tea bags on his eyes and ointment in them,just holding him. Try THAT to a yearling who does not cooperate.
Just try putting tea bags on any tortoises eyes and just see how hard it is, and I did it for hours over a year. Just sayin....anybody who 
"parrots" my experience with spiral bulbs is fine with me.

However, I was told by the company, that the problem has been fixed, and that the spiral bulbs need to be horizontal, not pointing straight down...
supposedly they are safer now, I personally will not ever use them again...Powersun is my bulb of choice.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 29, 2015)

And you have to understand, when Maggie had this problem, no one had ever reported about those bulbs, so she had no idea that that's what was wrong with the babies. So, the bulb continued to burn the babies' eyes as she treated them. It wasn't until much later that we realized it was the bulbs, after the damage was done and continued to be done.


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