# Pyramiding as an Environmental Response



## Balboa (Dec 24, 2010)

Crazy idea number 357... 

Tortoises as a Family are literally older than dirt. It has always seemed very odd to me that it could be so "easy" for them to become so hideously malformed in captivity. Many consider this a sign of just HOW BAD we are doing at taking care of them. Yet at the same time they are obviously MASTER survivalists, able to have survived for so long on earth through massive environmental changes.

What if pyramiding is not a "disease" like rickets, but an in-built adaptation to environment, like skin tanning?

If we consider the "other-wise" healthy pyramided tortoise in the context of an arid, sunny environment they may have some advantages over their smooth shelled brethren. The pyramids increase surface area of the shell, without increasing incidental solar exposure. This allows for better excess heat shedding without collecting any more heat.

The valleys created by these pyramids also help to protect the sensitive scute margins from dehydration. I've noticed on Rocky that her margins are the last part of her shell to dry out, lasting far longer than the pyramids.

Obviously, this is not an ideal adaptation, as it could easily weaken the shell and is irreversable. It seems more like a desparate survival mechanism to allow the species to survive massive droughts or environmental shifts, hopefully temporary of nature, or at least to survive long enough to migrate to better lands.

Maybe by keeping our torts too dry we trigger this instinctive growth response. Their bodies think they're living in a drought, so they take on their drought species form.

Of course this doesn't mean I think its ok then to accept pyramiding in our torts. This is still not the "ideal" way for them to be, and still signals a failure in husbandry.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 24, 2010)

Isn't there a foot ball game on tv? You have much too much time on your hands!

(Your reasoning sounds perfectly reasonable to me!  )


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## Tom (Dec 24, 2010)

Sounds like a plausible theory to me too.


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## Balboa (Dec 24, 2010)

LOL I think that's one of my problems, I don't watch TV. I find it shuts off my mind.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 24, 2010)

This is the first time that I've noticed that Rocky's body is Rocky Balboa's body. Did you just recently update that avatar?


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## Shelly (Dec 24, 2010)

Not to nitpick, but I think that's Rambo's body. Same as Rocky's but more roids and grease.


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## Tom (Dec 24, 2010)

I have been "disturbed" by that avatar for quite a while now. No its not new.


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## Neal (Dec 24, 2010)

Interesting theory, it's a reasonable answer to why the "deformity" develop as pyramids, but I would think if it was the reaction to growing up dry and nearly dehydrated than wouldn't we see more of this in the wild? Some parts of Africa where leopard tortoises are from are prone to droughts right?

I just got your avatar picture too, I thought the body part was the plastron and just thought it was a weird picture. Now I think it's cool, so if I can change, and yous can change, then everyone can change!


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## Madkins007 (Dec 24, 2010)

This does not seem to adequately address the issues in Andy Highfield's field studies he recently documented. I find myself thinking more and more that pyramiding is a dietary/growth issue that lots of humidity can deal with in a different manner.

My thoughts are that some tortoises go 6 months without real food after hatching, growing on the nutrients in the yolk sac.They also hide a lot, have soft shells, and are really edible. Maybe the first 6-12 months are about not growing in length but hardening the shell and developing internally? This would seem to be when building bone density that resists pyramiding occurs. Light on the carbs, fats, and proteins without skimping on the calcium, vitamin D, etc.


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## Balboa (Dec 24, 2010)

emysemys said:


> This is the first time that I've noticed that Rocky's body is Rocky Balboa's body. Did you just recently update that avatar?



ROFL

I wondered if anybody ever caught on to that. Yep its a redfoot head photoshopped onto a picture of Stallone as Rocky Balboa. It would've been clearer if the pic could've been bigger, but with a full body shot it was totally indestinguishable.







Technically its Adrienne (the tort) as well, just to really confuse things.



Madkins007 said:


> This does not seem to adequately address the issues in Andy Highfield's field studies he recently documented. I find myself thinking more and more that pyramiding is a dietary/growth issue that lots of humidity can deal with in a different manner.
> 
> My thoughts are that some tortoises go 6 months without real food after hatching, growing on the nutrients in the yolk sac.They also hide a lot, have soft shells, and are really edible. Maybe the first 6-12 months are about not growing in length but hardening the shell and developing internally? This would seem to be when building bone density that resists pyramiding occurs. Light on the carbs, fats, and proteins without skimping on the calcium, vitamin D, etc.



In all honesty, I think Andy Highfield is a pit bull that needs to let go of the already dead mule he's thrashing on. I really saw nothing in his recent study to convince me of diet playing a significant role. I see a good discussion could be had there, as I know you are a smart one Mark, so obviously you see something there I don't.





Neal Butler said:


> Interesting theory, it's a reasonable answer to why the "deformity" develop as pyramids, but I would think if it was the reaction to growing up dry and nearly dehydrated than wouldn't we see more of this in the wild? Some parts of Africa where leopard tortoises are from are prone to droughts right?
> 
> I just got your avatar picture too, I thought the body part was the plastron and just thought it was a weird picture. Now I think it's cool, so if I can change, and yous can change, then everyone can change!



Good points Neal. I've heard both claims of seeing pyramided torts in the wilds of africa, and claims that there is no such thing. Until I get there and start doing some tortoise searching on my own, I'm not sure who to believe.

Obviously Tom (one of the few folks I've been able to talk to who has seen wild torts) saw no pyramided torts in South Africa, with its nice mediteranean climate and consistant weather patterns. What about further inland?


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## onarock (Dec 24, 2010)

Thinking out of the box like a true electrician, Balboa. Could it also be for getting more sun exposure. Like solar panels in a open field......allowing them to heat faster. Maybe there is a tie with night time lows. Madkins does have a point. I understand that its pretty dry in some of their native land. I have posted in the past asking about the possibility that tortoises migrate. We may find adults in dry areas, but is that where they hatch. Maybe they move to more highly vegitated or wet areas. It would be interesting to find out that at any given time of the year at certain places the tortoises that people see are either all male or all female. We dont know what they do. Madkins also stated that maybe they go up to 6 months without real food. I think this is a real possibility. We know that animals that dont raise their young usually leave them with a health starting out food supply. In this case a yolk. Yolk to an animal is about as good of a food option as it gets It may just be the best food they will ever have.


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## PeanutbuttER (Dec 25, 2010)

Tom said:


> I have been "disturbed" by that avatar for quite a while now. No its not new.



I'm surprised so many people haven't noticed. Since when did any tortoise have abs like those? 

It's been there for at least 2 months ish I would guess.

As far as the theory, IMO it sounds plausible but isn't accurate. Wild torts aren't starved for the sun so if that part of it were true then forest torts would naturally pyramid to increase their ability to absorb some rays. If heat were the issue then I would expect desert tortoises to only pyramid in captivity when they are kept too hot. However temperature is not the deciding factor in pyramiding in hatchlings. Keep 'em too cold and they get sick, but not pyramided. Admittedly, keep them too hot and chances are too dry as well so you do see pyramiding but probably not from the temperature aspect directly.

Plus the relatively non-existent occurrence of wild pyramided tortoises makes me think it's not an adaptation that they go into very easily but rather are forced into by captive conditions. I'm that sense though it is an enviroental response, hmmm, that's a weird thought.


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## Madkins007 (Dec 25, 2010)

I'm not sure 'diet' is quite the right word for it... I just wonder if baby torts eat the way we think they do. It sort of goes back to your bug-eater theory- maybe babies differently than we think they do.


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## Balboa (Dec 26, 2010)

Well Mark, you know I'm right on board with your thoughts on us not understanding baby torts wild diets.

It occured to me after I posted it that my analogy for Andy was a bit disrespectful, the guy's heart is certainly in the right place, and he has campained long and hard for torts. I just think he's been far too stubborn in supporting an idea that has yet to be supported by research, and in fact research is showing to be incorrect. At least now he's cracked the door a bit to Ed Pirog's ideas.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me that diet (or lack there-of) may still play a part at some level. More research required.

To my minds logic, pyramiding happens far too easily. It just doesn't make sense that nature can be so delicate and fallible on such a well evolved creature. Many other creatures can endure far worse abuse at our hands, and take years to show the results before they die, if they ever do. Captive torts fed a seemingly adequate diet, and kept in reasonable conditions that other biome coinhabitants survive, readily pyramid.

-----------------------------------------
Peanut, I think its more a big picture thing than a leads to b. Too much heat alone is only really a problem if you can't find a way to cool down and keep hydrated (to a point). Too much heat over a long period of time, dries out the ground which leads to many plant species whithering away. We go from say grassland to desert, which has a dramatic impact on organisms living there. No more plants means far less shade to be had. A warmer body will also dehydrate quicker than a cooler body. 

Plop a redfoot in the desert and they will likely overheat and dry out. Plob a baby redfoot under some brush in the desert, and it may survive, but it may grow up pyramided from the dry air, and thus better able to cope with the heat when in the open. (this idea pivots largely on humidity/hydration producing smooth torts).

--------------------------------

I made a picture to try and illustrate my thinking. I know pics help me think, so I thought it might help some of you, I can tell by some responses you're not getting it. (Its fine to agree or disagree with the premise about the cause of pyramiding, but you need to at least get the principle first  )

I tried to show that the total light energy that hits a pyramided shell from straight above is the same as for a smooth. This means they both absorb the exact same amount of heat, but the pyramided due to its increases surface area can shed that heat quicker. (like cooling fins on an engine)

If the light is coming in from an angle, the pyramided actually gets a little more energy, but this may be an advantage as the sun is going down.





I'm not sure this theory could ever be proven, but I am thinking of ways to support the credibility. I'm hoping to make two model torts from wood, one smooth, one pyramided, paint them flat black and perform some tests. It remains to be seen if the pyramided tort actually has enough increased surface area to make a significant difference in core temps.


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## Madkins007 (Dec 26, 2010)

Well, heck, if you are going to go with pyramiding as a positive thing, how about the detail that some of the naturally pyramided species are almost impossible to put on their back? If it is a natural response, perhaps it is to the drier habitat probably being rockier/thornier and more likely to tip a tortoise. Red-foots, because of their limited rear leg mobility are considered more at risk of dying on their backs.


What part of Andy's research do you think has been proven incorrect?


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## stells (Dec 26, 2010)

But what about the bone... you are on about the scutes pyramiding... but its the bone underneath the scute that pyramids...


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## Balboa (Dec 26, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> Well, heck, if you are going to go with pyramiding as a positive thing, how about the detail that some of the naturally pyramided species are almost impossible to put on their back? If it is a natural response, perhaps it is to the drier habitat probably being rockier/thornier and more likely to tip a tortoise. Red-foots, because of their limited rear leg mobility are considered more at risk of dying on their backs.
> 
> 
> What part of Andy's research do you think has been proven incorrect?



LOL, I guess you could call it a positive spin, but I'd be hard pressed to consider pyramiding as a positive. Its more of an extreme response to extreme conditions that should be avoided.

It IS an interesting point though about how a pyramided tort will be more rightable when tipped. "In the jungle" pyramids would be disadvantageous as they create catches to make wiggling through thick brush difficult, whereas a slim, smooth profile slips right past. Two body types for two environments.

As to Andy's research, its not so much that I've seen "diet as a cause of pyramiding" disproven, but neither proven as well. I have yet to read any evidence, stories, references, whatever to pyramiding being corrected or prevented by diet. I've read studies and seen evidence to humidity playing a role however, (like Tom's experiences). As I recall the "Austrian" study addressed diet as well, and concluded it made only a small difference if any.



stells said:


> But what about the bone... you are on about the scutes pyramiding... but its the bone underneath the scute that pyramids...



Dang Kelly,
I'm trying to follow what you're saying here, but I'm not sure I am.

As to which comes first, the deformed bone, or the deformed scute, I'm of the mindset that the scute deforms first and the bone grows to match it. 

As to the actual physical mechanism at hand through which pyramiding occurs, I'm unsure, and I have yet to read of anything that explains it, just theories.

My idea is that it may be "intentional" on part of the nature of tortoises to pyramid at times. It could be that the drying out of the scute margin creates the step deformity, so its a mechanical mechanism to create the effect, maybe even more to protect the margin from further damage than any other reason.

It could also be an internal growth response, decreased hydration brings about hormonal changes that alter the way the shell grows. Who knows. Sure is interesting to think about though.


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## stells (Dec 27, 2010)

How do you explain the scute material still being thin on a pyramided tortoise... if you think its the scute that pyramids first and the bone follows?


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## egyptiandan (Dec 27, 2010)

Here's what I picked out of your post #14 "Captive torts fed a *seemingly* adequate diet" I think that concisely puts where the understanding of tortoise diet is for most people.
The internal structures of a tortoise are affected by things a tortoise ingests or doesn't ingest. Enviromental factors affect a tortoise in so far as to change internal processes, like dehydration. Lower temperatures would also affect a tortoise by not letting a tortoise eat as much as it should causing anemia again affecting an internal process.
When you talk pyramiding you can never get away from what is happening inside a tortoise. Thats where it all starts. 

Danny


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## Tom (Dec 27, 2010)

onarock said:


> Thinking out of the box like a true electrician, Balboa. Could it also be for getting more sun exposure. Like solar panels in a open field......allowing them to heat faster. Maybe there is a tie with night time lows. Madkins does have a point. I understand that its pretty dry in some of their native land. I have posted in the past asking about the possibility that tortoises migrate. We may find adults in dry areas, but is that where they hatch. Maybe they move to more highly vegitated or wet areas. It would be interesting to find out that at any given time of the year at certain places the tortoises that people see are either all male or all female. We dont know what they do. Madkins also stated that maybe they go up to 6 months without real food. I think this is a real possibility. We know that animals that dont raise their young usually leave them with a health starting out food supply. In this case a yolk. Yolk to an animal is about as good of a food option as it gets It may just be the best food they will ever have.



Excellent points here. Tremendous insight could be gained by studying wild populations over an extended period of time. I've always wondered about the possibility of migration, groups and the sex ratios within them, and wether or not they have a "preferred" area to lay eggs, like sea turtles. Sea turtles always return to the same beach where they were hatched to lay their own eggs. People have told me that what I'm doing with my babies is "un-natural". They say that there is no pond for babies to sit in every day in the desert and that it does not rain on their shells 3-4 times every day. I say, "How do you know?" Maybe the females trek over to a permanent water source and lay their eggs near it. Maybe the babies that survive find hidey holes near the water that are damp or even wet. Nothing but pure fantasy on my part, but the point is that NOBODY really knows, one way or the other. Highfeild's observations were great, but still only a 14 day period in a tiny part of one species' habitat. If we get a thousand people doing that same thing all over the globe, with multiple species, over large portions of a species range, at different times of the year, then we will really be getting somewhere.

Until that happens, we are left with observing what works AND what doesn't work in captivity, and trying to find theories to explain what we see.

Balboa, I love your point about how these animals have adapted and survived for millions of years, but that some element or multiple elements, are so wrong in captivity that it causes them to become grossly disfigured. It has been this way for at least 20 years. Only in the last few years has any "real" progress been made in solving these problem. There are a lot of people that have been contributing puzzle pieces to help figure this out.

Danny, I love your note about the "seemingly adequate" diets. This is another area that needs major, long term study in wild populations.


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## stells (Dec 27, 2010)

Raised totally dry... well apart from the water bowl that they hardly visit... no humid hides... very rarely sprayed...

Testudo graeca Marokkensis... fresh hatchling and yearling...


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## Tom (Dec 27, 2010)

Great photo Kelly. Glad to see that someone is able to do it right. What methods did you use to get these results and do you think that your methods would produce the same results with a redfoot, sulcata or leopard?


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## PeanutbuttER (Dec 27, 2010)

Kelly, what do you think made the difference? Also, what's the humidity like in your area? That is a really great comparison, so whatever you did obviously did work and work well at that. Do you have any pictures of adults raised the same way?


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## stells (Dec 27, 2010)

They have produced the same results with Hermanns... Horsfields... Ibera... i don't see where anyone gave specific species here for this to work as a theory with... i did use to keep Redfoots... but didn't keep them dry... i also keep stars... they have an option of humid and dry... i'm not saying this way will work for all tortoises.. but neither should it be said that it doesn't work for some...

Methods i used...

Overhead lighting... combined bulb...

Temps... 34 basking... 30 warm end... 22 cool end... temps in celcius... night time 18...

Soaked 3 times per week...

Water bowl in enclosure 24/7

Fed.. weeds/plants... supplimented at every feeding with vit suppliment containg D3

I would love to have a go with a Sulcata... and will do one day... when i have more room.... at the moment... i just don't have the room for big tortoises.. 

I live in the UK...

We are not so much humid... but cold and damp... and these guys have spent most of there days in doors... due to a bad summer... 

I will look at the hygrometer and check humidity reading in the enclosure... i will also get pics of mum and dad... they were raised by a friend... pretty much the same way as i am raising these...


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## Neal (Dec 27, 2010)

Good pictures stells, you can see the shell of the tortoise on the right looks completely dry yet it has a damn smooth shell. I have an indian star that I raised completely dry and has a smooth shell. Have you measured the humidity levels in all parts of your enclosure.


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## John (Dec 27, 2010)

i'm confused by the pirog reference and i quote from his book"wild leopard tortoises often have pyramided shells,a condition seen in most other tortoise species only in captivity". sulcata and leopard tortoises page 13

maybe pyramiding is a reponse too no avaailable water much like a camel.or a way of storing some other necesary nutrient that is not readily available in some areas or situations. just a thought


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## Balboa (Dec 28, 2010)

Great Job on those Moroccans Kelly! From what little I've read they're "considered" one of the more difficult Greeks, I imagine in good hands they fair far better than average though. 

I think you and possibly others may miss the point of my theory though. Its really got nothing to do with the actual biological process of pyramiding, and stems only from a big-picture outlook on what evidence I've seen about cause and effect regarding pyramiding (with a little gut instinct thrown in).

So as to why pyramided scute material remains thin on a pyramided tortoise? That has really nothing to do with what I'm saying here, but I will gladly talk about it. With the blame on too much protein, yes I would expect too thick scutes, and when I first started studying pyramiding, this is what I believed was happening. We've all seen that this is not happening, and the scute is thin with deformed bone directly underneath it. While it is entirely possible that the bone takes on the deformed shape all its own and the scute is forced to comply, I think most of us think its the other way around.

Bone density results from pressure. Part of the blame for osteoporosis in humans falls on lack of use. Bones that receive no stress will be "lightened" by the body, made porous, so the calcium can be used elsewhere or for whatever other reasons these things occur. Bones that receive regular use and stress become stronger, the body builds them up so they don't break.

This makes me assume as the tortoise grows, the bone pushes outwards on the scutes. As the scute forms each pyramid step it essentially is trying to lift up and away from the bone, this creates a low pressure area that the bone fills with porous, weak material, the bone close to the margins is under pressure from the scute edges, it becomes dense. (I believe Andy Highfield did refer to this process somewhat, though in a kind of backwards way to my mind, which is really just about semantics, the uneven pressure being applied to the bone by the pyramided scute).


In any case, I would expect a truely arid adapted tortoise (such as some of the greeks) to show little pyramiding from dry keeping.

Its the species that have been traditionally kept drier than they should be (based on observations of how they live in their environment more advanced than simply knowing they're from "Arid Africa" and reading about the sahara in a 1955 Encyclopedia) that my have my proposed theoretical pyramiding trigger built in. 

It seems like an extreme response to extreme conditions that may make the difference between survival of the species and extinction of a local population.

I find the reference to Eds book from Squamata interesting, (and once again, want to get my hands on it).

Aside from actually testing for any thermal advantage to pyramiding, it would be nice to collect data on actual populations. If local populations of Leopards in Africa in areas afflicted with drought show higher rates of pyramiding as compared to local populations of closely related leopards under "normal" conditions elsewhere, this possibly supports my theory.... or at least the humidity/hydration theory.

Which brings up a point. Is this theory able to stand without the humidity/hydration theory? Possibly. It is also possible that "drought" conditions change the nature of food available to native populations, and the changed diet triggers the response. Maybe something of both. 


Okay, thinking about what squamata said gives me another idea on how to phrase this.

Perhaps Pyramiding is a built in, adaptive response in tortoises to survive extreme conditions (primarily, excessive radiant heat for whatever reason, from the sun) and something, or maybe several somethings in how we care for these tortoises at times may trigger this response. By looking at possible scenarios that can result in an excessive thermal load and how those effect the environment of native tortoise populations we can gain clues as to how to correct our cares to more thorougly, and safely, prevent pyramiding in our tortoises.


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## stells (Dec 29, 2010)

This is why i rarely post pictures to prove my point... no matter what i do its not good enough... i have seen plenty of pyramided and deformed greeks... hermanns (i have a deformed one here)... Horsfields... they aren't all easy to grow...

I won't bother any more... i have put alot of time and effort into growing these tortoises smooth... then you try and say oh it because its a greek and they fair better... just because humidity wasn't one of the factors i included... 

Its funny how once i put the picture up... disproving the theory... this thread suddenly became slightly more species specific... 

Sorry folks... i won't give anymore details on humidity levels in the enclosure... or pictures of the adults... as they are just greeks and don't count...


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## egyptiandan (Dec 29, 2010)

Where to start, where to start 

You can't compare a human with osteoporosis with a pyramided tortoise, it's not the same. Osteoporosis happens to bones that are done growing, with the calcium being taken out of the bone. Pyramiding happens with young growing bones of a tortoises carapace. It's something lacking or not enough of, when they are making the bone that is the problem here. Of course things happening in the outside world effect what is going on inside your tortoise. 
You talk about humidity/hydration of tortoise species that most people keep dry as growing animals. Than go on to say pyramiding is a response to bad conditions. Well of course it is, as those bad conditions effect the tortoises body as it's growing. Okay we are talking say Leopard and Star tortoises in particular. These animals come from areas of the world the are pretty much stable temperature wise (except the Leopards from the southern parts of the range) and the seasons are wet and dry seasons as opposed to hot and cold for the most part. They also occur in places with an adequate amount of available calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D3 for good growth. Adequate if the conditions keep to the averages of the local weather. If say a tortoise is used to 3 months of rain and a drought years comes and they only get 2 months of rain. That will effect how long the tortoise has to eat dry vegetaions or eat at all. This would also extend a period of dehydration. This being dehydrated effects the inner workings of the tortoise's organs. Making them less able to process the vitamins and minerals needed to produce bone. This would make this tortoise slightly pyramided in the future as the adequate diet is no longer adequate as the tortoise can't extract what it needs as efficiently as it once did. Now have drier conditions happen 3 or 4 years in a row, than your going to have a nicely pyramided tortoise as this will really lower what the organs will be able to extract from the food. Once this has started, by a few drier than normal years, can never be reversed as the organs are already damaged and available diet is only adequate. Now if this happened in an area with an abundance of calcium and phosphorus, this abundance would offset what has happened to the internal organs and let the tortoise be able to still grow smoothly or smoother than it would have on just an adequate amount of calcium and phosphorus.
As for the scute and bone theory.  The individual bones of the carapace can't pyramid as the seams of the bones don't follow the seams of the scutes (the scutes and the bones together are what make the carapace so ridgid). The scutes overlap most bone seams and any that don't (bone seams I'm talking here) run perpendicular to a scute seam. So to still be able to live, the bone (parts of different bones or one bone and parts of others) covered by a scute pyramid. This keeps the integrity of the carapace intact and lets the tortoise keep on living despite what has happened to the carapace.
So you really can't just pluck one thing out of the air and say EUREKA I've found why tortoises pyramid. It's a complex process of many interconnected things. Everything must be taken as a whole and figured out as a whole. 

Very nice pictures Kelly  You've done great with them

Danny


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## Candy (Dec 29, 2010)

So does this mean that humidity alone is not the main component of a tortoises shell not pyramiding like some on here are trying to lead us to believe? I think I read this right Danny, but I've never seen you post this much before.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 29, 2010)

Whew!, Danny!!! I don't think I've EVER heard you utter so many words all in the same post!!!

Please don't think like that, Kelly. We appreciate your pictures and the hard work it took to raise your babies smoothly. And they are absolutely beautiful! You should be very proud.


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## kbaker (Dec 29, 2010)

Candy said:


> So does this mean that humidity alone is not the main component of a tortoises shell not pyramiding like some on here are trying to lead us to believe? I think I read this right Danny, but I've never seen you post this much before.



I think you are confusing the part humidity plays with tortoises and pyramiding. Humidity is one 'tool' that can be used to deal with pyramiding, but if the situation requires a hammer, a screw driver will not work. Many things can cause a tortoise to dehydrate. Dehydration will cause many problems for a tortoise - organ failure, pyramiding,....
If a tortoise is not dehydrated and nothing is causing it to dehydrate, you do not need to do the same things as for a tortoise that is dehydrating. 

Stells has found the 'balance' she needs to keep her tortoises growing smooth. At this point, no one can say for sure what that 'balance' really is, but I will bet her tortoises are not dehydrated. So, she does not need to increase humidity, soak more or spray more.

For some keepers on this forum, just keeping the humidity higher or spraying their tortoises is enough to 'balance' things. They are doing other things that effect the 'balance', but humidity/moister has made the most impact.

Stells-
This goes with what I mentioned before. We know two things for sure...pyramiding is in the bone and external humidity/moister decreases pyramiding. The external moister does not directly effect the bone, but what it does is slow down dehydration. Dehydration directly/indirectly effects the bone. It's debatable whether directly/indirectly/combination of each, but it does not matter. Find the cause of dehydration (whether environmental, nutritional, other health issues, external, internal,....), stop it and then maintain hydration.

And this is why it has to be a 'balance' and the 'balance' is different from keeper to keeper and tortoise to tortoise. If something is tipping the scales one way, you have to find something to tip back into the tortoise favor. The closer to balance without having any one thing tip heavy in either direction, the less anything will have an effect. Does this or that effect pyramiding? Sure it all does, but unless it is really effecting things extremly, you won't notice much and you may disreguard it.


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## Balboa (Dec 29, 2010)

Where do I start.

Stells, Danny, I truly appreciate what you guys have to say. Stells keep posting. You have beautiful tortoises, and we want to know EXACTLY what you did to make that happen.

Danny, thank you so much. I don't think you've ever shared so much on your take on pyramiding.

What both of you fail to realize, is what you have to say does not dissprove my theory, yet you take the stance it does. If anything, Danny's post supports it. That tells me you do not understand what I'm saying, and that frustrates me. I don't know how else to express my idea. That makes ME want to give up.


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## PeanutbuttER (Dec 29, 2010)

Balboa - 

Now I'm not sure I understand your argument here. Your position is that pyramiding is a response to environmental stimuli, not in the sense that mistreatment/abuse will cause it rather that in dryer/hotter conditions the tort's adaptive response is to raise the scutes for whatever reason. In other words, it's an adaptation and not a sign of abuse.

Is that the gist of it?


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## Candy (Dec 29, 2010)

kbaker said:


> Candy said:
> 
> 
> > So does this mean that humidity alone is not the main component of a tortoises shell not pyramiding like some on here are trying to lead us to believe? I think I read this right Danny, but I've never seen you post this much before.
> ...



I like the way you put this post, thanks.  I think I'm understanding a little better now.


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## Balboa (Dec 29, 2010)

PeanutbuttER said:


> Balboa -
> 
> Now I'm not sure I understand your argument here. Your position is that pyramiding is a response to environmental stimuli, not in the sense that mistreatment/abuse will cause it rather that in dryer/hotter conditions the tort's adaptive response is to raise the scutes for whatever reason. In other words, it's an adaptation and not a sign of abuse.
> 
> Is that the gist of it?



Very Close, and really just a matter of semantics and extremes beyond that.

IMHO I suspect that the necessary stimuli to trigger pyramiding amounts to abuse, as if this theory holds true, it is a response to extreme conditions that should not be replicated in captivity.

Also I should stress that this is a theoretical idea at this point, I cannot say that I BELIEVE this to be true. My point of posting was in hopes of gathering feedback on the idea to support/dissprove and to help me think about it.

If we try to envision the environmental conditions that would favor a pyramided tortoise, many factors of the tortoises life change. Like I stated earlier, its somewhat like raising a redfoot on the african savannah. The tortoise is exposed to drier air and more direct sun. The diet goes from one of mushrooms, leaves and fruits to dry grasses. To be more exact, as the idea is the environment itself in the local has changed, the green growth of the redfoots home has withered to dead fallen leaves. Food and water, once abundant, are now scarce. Rotting carrion from animals that did not survive the change may be a staple. 

All of these factors could combine to trigger an adaptive response, or maybe just some.


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## egyptiandan (Dec 29, 2010)

I do get what your theory is  I just disagree with pyramiding being an adaptive response to bad conditions. It is though a response to bad conditions, just not an adaptive response.

Glad to suprise a few people 

Danny


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## Balboa (Dec 29, 2010)

egyptiandan said:


> I do get what your theory is  I just disagree with pyramiding being an adaptive response to bad conditions. It is though a response to bad conditions, just not an adaptive response.
> 
> Glad to suprise a few people
> 
> Danny



Great Danny!

since you disagree, why? just your gut response or any argument against? you're one of the most knowledgeable and experienced keepers I know.

ok, Danny, I've gone over it all and I guess I can see why you disagree, my bad.

I agree with you that poor conditions can cause damage to internal organs. I guess I'm not convinced that that is a "sole" reason for pyramiding, yes a serious problem for torts, but not necessarily pyramiding causing.


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## egyptiandan (Dec 29, 2010)

I never said it was a sole reason for pyramiding 

"So you really can't just pluck one thing out of the air and say EUREKA I've found why tortoises pyramid. It's a complex process of many interconnected things. Everything must be taken as a whole and figured out as a whole."

Yes Candy I am saying that just one thing won't solve pyramiding. 

Danny


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## Balboa (Dec 29, 2010)

*bang bang bang*

that's the sound of my head hitting the desk repeatedly. 

Love ya Danny, but man you can drive a person nuts.


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## egyptiandan (Dec 29, 2010)

Just doing my job 

Danny


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## Yvonne G (Dec 29, 2010)

egyptiandan said:


> Just doing my job
> 
> Danny



LOL! Is that in the job description? (driving people nuts)


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## Madkins007 (Dec 29, 2010)

stells said:


> This is why i rarely post pictures to prove my point... no matter what i do its not good enough... i have seen plenty of pyramided and deformed greeks... hermanns (i have a deformed one here)... Horsfields... they aren't all easy to grow...
> 
> I won't bother any more... i have put alot of time and effort into growing these tortoises smooth... then you try and say oh it because its a greek and they fair better... just because humidity wasn't one of the factors i included...
> 
> ...



I really hope you keep posting. It is really easy for any group to become overly insular and not see the bigger picture.

We can feel your frustration, but I also sense the frustration of the other posters. From what they can see, they are doing the same thing as you are with very different results and are wondering why.

I think there responses are more attempts to pick your brain- find out what is going on here- why are ours pyramiding while yours do not?

OK, so we are all doing about the same habitat stuff- maybe the differences are in the diet. May I ask what your feeding plan is?


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## Candy (Dec 29, 2010)

egyptiandan said:


> I never said it was a sole reason for pyramiding
> 
> "So you really can't just pluck one thing out of the air and say EUREKA I've found why tortoises pyramid. It's a complex process of many interconnected things. Everything must be taken as a whole and figured out as a whole."
> 
> ...



Thanks Danny that clears up a lot of confusion from things I've read before.  It's nice that you read every post before you respond. I like that. Thanks


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## Balboa (Dec 29, 2010)

In order to test for any thermal advantage to pyramiding I performed an experiment today. I took two same size blocks of wood (I believe them to be Douglas Fir) and cut pyramiding into one then painted them black. Ideally I want to try this with a more tortoise shape model, but decided this would be good for proof of concept.







I drilled a hole into the center of each to place a probe for core temperature readings.






They each spent two hours in the "open top" enclosure from my enclosure experiments. They each basked for two hours under the same 75 watt spot lamp in 68 degree ambient room temps.






I then measured the center of each "scute" (each bump of the pyramided, and corresponding location on the smooth) as well as center of three sides and recorded the core temp. (All temps in Fahrenheit)

Smooth:
Scutes- 126,143,133,156,331,161,148,175,148 
Sides- 84,89,87
Core- 90

Pyramided:
Scutes- 134,147,134,152,367,169,142,159,147
Sides- 82,82,86
Core- 85

Two things stand out to me.
1st ... HOLY CRAP!!! Over 300 degrees at that center scute directly under the lamp. Talk about literally cooking torts.
2nd... 5 degrees cooler core temp on the pyramided tort, despite similar surface temps. I do consider 5 degrees a serious advantage in "too hot" conditions. The flip side is true as well and has not been brought up. *This could provide a disadvantage in overly cool conditions*.

I would like to run these same tests for a longer "cook" time, and with a breeze to see if I continue to see similar results.


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## Neal (Dec 30, 2010)

That's pretty neat that you did that. I would question how applicable your results would be to tortoises though. What I mean is how similar is a block of wood to a tortoises shell?


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## kbaker (Dec 30, 2010)

Two things stand out for me...
1) At least for young/small tortoises, they need to raise their core temps quickly and get out of site before something eats it.
2) The higher temps are at the top vertibra scutes (spelling?) which goes with why those scutes tend to pyramid first/quicker.

Now for your next experiment...soak and spray the blocks of wood to keep them from pryramiding. 



Neal Butler said:


> That's pretty neat that you did that. I would question how applicable your results would be to tortoises though. What I mean is how similar is a block of wood to a tortoises shell?



No, we probably can't recreate a tortoise for this experiment, but important thing to take a way here is the differences/similarities of the results of the two blocks. It may not be exact for a tortoise, but we can apply the ideas to a tortoise to help us understand. Like for core temps, they may not be those temps for a tortoise and they might be a few degrees +/- compared to each other, but I am sure they won't be the same and the one will be higher than the other.


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## Balboa (Dec 30, 2010)

Thanks 

Yah, wood was the easiest to work with, most comparable to a tortoise thing I have. As K said, it proves the concept. I was still questioning the amount of difference pyramiding would make (pyramids aren't exactly as distinctive as fins on an engine).

If I could get my hands on two same size shells from dead torts, one pyramided, one smooth, and fill them with ballistics gel or something like that it would certainly give more comparable results. I'm really not interested in the leg work to try and locate some, and am DEFINATELY not willing to sacrifice living torts in the name of science. I'm also not likely to ever be willing to "corral" living torts and subject them to heating experiments even if I had a suitable pair.

I am considering having a couple ceramic "shells" made. I'm not sure how close ceramic is to bone, but probably closer than wood (but then again maybe not, seems like ceramic may be denser).


I thought more last night on the full implications here. Even if my hunch about pyramiding being an adaptive response is wrong, if the thermal differences between pyramided and smooth shelled tortoises continues to hold true in further experiments, that places pyramided torts at a SERIOUS disadvantage in "normal" conditions.

They would need to spend greater amounts of time basking, which leads to further dehydration risks, or "live with" cooler core temps which leads to poor digestion and possible nutritional defficencies. Plays into the, "Once pyramiding is started, its hard to stop" concept. As K pointed out, a wild pyramided baby in "normal" temp environments would need to risk longer exposure times, thus likely falling prey.

Then again.... a further correction to myself, even though they are cold-blooded, many torts do generate a portion of their own body heat through activity. That may explain some of the "hyper-activity" in my Rocky. She's like a "shark" most days, she never stops moving (and she is pyramided for those that have not seen her picture).

The Pyramided tort would then be able to cool off quicker when needed, and/or maintain a higher activity level than a smooth shell at same temps.


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## Balboa (Dec 30, 2010)

Frustrating.... todays experiments were botched.

I decided to test for the effect of a "breeze" so placed the "torts" in the open under the heat lamp with the ceiling fan on. During the pyramided run the fan was shut off at some point, for an unknown length of time. This of course allowed it to heat up quicker. As a consequence both had 86 degree core temps after 4 hours (and still rising). Were it not for the fact that both temps were still rising I'd be inclined to think 86 was the equilibrium temp and the pyramiding made no difference, hopefully that was just a coincidence.

I should have probably used smaller blocks to allow them to hit equilibrium quicker, as a full equilibrium run for each will be the next step. Who knows how long that will take.


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## Balboa (Dec 31, 2010)

I repeated the pyramided, 4 hour "breeze" test today, this time with the fan staying on the full time. Results are as follows:

Smooth:
Scutes- 128,155,134,144,294,154,124,149,126
Sides- 82,86,82
Core- 86.7

Pyramided:
Scutes- 123,148,128,146,301,170,125,156,137
Sides- 81,79,83
Core- 85.8

Close enough to show no distinctive advantage/disadvantage whatsoever. I had initially expected the pyramided to really keep substantially cooler here, but on further thought that expectation is flawed. The breeze raises the heat shedding capability of the wood, and as such the sides will become more "active" in cooling the blocks, minimizing much of the difference between blocks. I believe however, that the smooth sides on the pyramided block more accurately depicts a tortoise as the bulk of pyramiding is more "on top" in real tortoises than if I were to pyramid the sides as well. Once again more accurate models may yield slightly different results.

This tells me that if the initial experiment was not a fluke any thermal difference attributable to pyramiding that may or may not be an adaptive response in tortoises is more related to sunlight exposure than ambient temperatures.

Next up will be to look for equilibrium temps of the blocks. Hopefully that won't take too long to achieve. As we speak the pyramided is back in the enclosure under the lamp. Once I see little to no temperature change for an hour I'll consider that equilibrium.


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## onarock (Dec 31, 2010)

Wait a minute Balboa. You may not be wrong in your thoughts. Your using a block of wood and comparing it to a LIVE shell. Your dead piece of wood, however thick it is, is only representing a small part of a tortoises shell/scute. There are other things going on under that shell. Your wood may only be representing about 1=3cm of shell at the most, depending on the size of the animal. We assume tortoise shells dry out to some degree and therefore we can assume that they transpire moisture along with heat. Your blocks of wood heat up and may or may not transpire anything but heat. If you could scale the wood compared to the top 1-3cm of shell along with the time it takes 1-3cm of shell to heat and cool, your 1-3 degrees of separation could be in all actuallity.... huge. Tie in the rate at witch your wood heats and cools, scale that to a tortoise shell and you could be talkin about a real difference between the 2. I think rate of heating and cooling could also play a part in your theory. Hope I made sence


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## Balboa (Dec 31, 2010)

Yup, you make perfect sense Ona. More reason to come up with a better model 

The rate is another factor I was hoping to test for as well, just takes time. 

The "offgassing" of water vapor is another issue to be tackled. Evaporation from a shell/skin either real or simulated has an effect on temps. After all this cooking this will be some very dry wood, and I imagine the drier the wood, the poorer at conducting heat.

I had to raise the light this evening, core is up to 90, but the center scute started to combust!
I never saw any flame or smoke, but can smell it, so essentially its more like its being distilled (remembering back to science class in school where we heated wood in a test tube, it turned to char, and we collected the combustible gasses generated).






It is very clear to me that the spotlight I'm using has an intensely hot focused beam at its center. Totally unrelated, but possibly equally important as a safety measure I want to check more lamps for this hot spot. This could prove very damaging to reptiles.


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## stells (Jan 1, 2011)

Mark... thanks... i will PM you my diet regime (well the tortoises)... when i have a little bit of spare time... which will be when the kids go back to school lol...

I won't put it up on here... i don't need to post on these pyramiding thread anymore... i don't have a problem with it here... but am shot down at every opportunity... and i have bigger things to worry about at the moment...


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## Balboa (Jan 1, 2011)

I'm sorry you feel so put out Kelly, I don't think you understand, this is not a "pyramiding thread" in the normal sense. I have proposed a theory, based on a hunch as to thermal properties of pyramided shells versus smooth. I'm VERY interested in hearing about how you raise your torts with good success, in the correct context. Unless you can demonstrate how you raised your torts proves that pyramiding is not an adaptive response to their environment, it doesn't really contribute here.

I believe you jumped on this thinking its another "keep em hot and keep em humid", and want to prove that wrong. Sorry, while hot and humid may indeed be the correct environment to prevent pyramiding in some species, it may not be for all.

I really don't know how else to explain this to you.

I would suggest maybe posting a thread showing how you raise your torts in great detail, and laying out your ideas about how this dissproves "keep em hot and keep em humid" if that's your goal. I would love to read what you have to say on the matter.


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## stells (Jan 1, 2011)

You don't need to explain it... maybe you should understand... i'm not out to prove a theory wrong... my stars have a hot/humid end... my meds don't... i understand what you were saying about it being an adaptive response to enviromental conditions... i don't agree... but that is my opinion... i don't need to post up details on how i keep mine... to prove anything... and don't have the desire to prove myself... 

I wish you the best with your theory... and hope you get the answers from it that you want...


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## Balboa (Jan 1, 2011)

Great!
If you don't agree, please explain why. That's all I ask 

As to not wanting to share, that's too bad.


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## John (Jan 1, 2011)

I think the answer lies in another question.exactly how and where do leopard trotoises spend the first year of their life in the wild?


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## Neal (Jan 1, 2011)

squamata said:


> I think the answer lies in another question.exactly how and where do leopard trotoises spend the first year of their life in the wild?



I would pay a lot of money to find this out.


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## Balboa (Jan 1, 2011)

Neal Butler said:


> squamata said:
> 
> 
> > I think the answer lies in another question.exactly how and where do leopard trotoises spend the first year of their life in the wild?
> ...



How much will you pay? All I need is enough to cover air fair and buy a little food when I get there 

You're not alone in this, I'd really love to know more myself on all species, especially the leopards as I hope to be acquiring some soon.

The equilibrium experiments turned out much like the "breeze" actually. Only 1 degree difference, the pyramided being cooler. As stated before, not the kind of difference I was expecting to see, but as Ona pointed out, possibly enough. It is a definate, repeating trend so far, the pyramided comes up cooler every time (even if its not always by much).

At this point I really need to see about an improved model and probably dig into more of the physics, biology and mathematics.
-How much of a difference does it really take to affect an organism? Of course us mammals get a fever, and even though we may only be 2 or 3 degrees warmer we can feel terrible from it. Obviously cold-bloodeds are used to their temperatures fluctuating more drastically.

-What is the actual expected thermal loss difference between the two shells based on surface area. There are certainly formulas to describe this.


As to making my new model, I'm thinking about taking an imprint of Rocky for the Pyramided. Maybe mold some play-dough or whatever around her shell quickly, I don't want to cause her undue stress like a "proper" mold would require. I could then use some sprayfoam or the like to create a "Rocky" model from that imprint and then form a better mold around that, plaster of paris or something. Any ideas here would be appreciated.

I then still have the trouble of a smooth model. Not having a smooth tort in my care makes this difficult, and may require artistic efforts on my part.... ruh roh.

I will likely just start by attempting to sculpt both from clay. That means I don't have to bother Rocky at all for this. We'll see how well I can do at sculpting pyramids.

Any ideas for "guts"? A hunk of meat of some kind might be ideal, but would likely get a little stinky before long.


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## Tom (Jan 1, 2011)

Balboa said:


> Yup, you make perfect sense Ona. More reason to come up with a better model
> 
> The rate is another factor I was hoping to test for as well, just takes time.
> 
> ...



I believe this is exactly what happened to Chewy's scutes. (You know my new female with the exposed bone at the tops of her pyramids). She's perfectly healthy and doing well, by the way.


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## Balboa (Jan 1, 2011)

Tom said:


> Balboa said:
> 
> 
> > Yup, you make perfect sense Ona. More reason to come up with a better model
> ...



Glad she's doing well Tom, I actually think about her quite a bit with the research I'm doing.

This ties into something interesting I just found. While looking for figures on thermal conductance of bone, I found this article:

http://www.aspe.net/publications/Annual_2005/POSTERS/1BIOMED/1BMENG/1721.PDF

While it doesn't support my theory one lick, I think its striking enough to share here. They state that bone damage starts to occur at 50 degrees celsius (122 F) and irreparable damage occurs at 70 C (158 F). I found these temperatures easy to hit on my wood blocks, and as it turns out wood may not be so far off from bone as far as thermal conductivity goes (but hopefully enough for a better safety margin).

This is where my lack of time and experience in the hobby shows. Is there documented pyramiding in captivity where no heat lamp was employed? It seems like it might be awful easy to damage the bone enough under a heat lamp, and that damage could result in "unusual growth" ie pyramiding. That or the construction of extra porous cancellous bone could be a defensive measure of the torts body.

This reminds me of a factor that I had not yet considered. Bone as living tissue has blood vessels, so the blood flowing through the shell bone will help to actively carry the heat conducted by the bone to the rest of the body, we aren't relying merely on passive conduction through the tort's body.

The highly porous bone found in pyramided torts SHOULD have a higher conductivity (normal body tissues apparently have a conductivity of around .5 W/mK, whereas cortical (hard) bone around .2) and more room for blood vessels. This could allow for increased heat transfer.

Something that does support my theory is my surface area calculations. (of course these are highly disputable)
I need to think of a better way to measure the surface area of torts.
To get my difference estimate I simplified the more 6 sided shape of an actual pyramided scute to a 4 sided pyramid with the top chopped off. By arbitrarily considering the flat half the length of the base and the slope of the sides 45 degrees, then adding the area of the 4 sides to the area of the top and comparing that to the area of the base, I came up with approx 25% greater surface area. Now if that don't make yer head spin.

25% greater surface area means that considering radiant loss alone, the pyramided tort will require 25% more energy to maintain the same temperature as a smooth shell. I consider that significant. (If a smooth was losing 10 watts, a pyramided may be losing 12.5 watts). 

Does that mean the temperature will also be 25% lower for an equal solar energy input ?... ---- too much math and more thinking. It would have to do with temperature differentials and things like that I believe. The greater the difference, the quicker the loss. Its been too many years since I studied this stuff in school.


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## John (Jan 2, 2011)

I have atheory on how baby torts spend the first year of their life,its pretty simple actually,but i still have too pool my info together some of the behaviors i've seen in the wild chelonians indigenous too my area hold the answer i think its been way over thought by the scientists.id be willing too bet theres a boy in africa that could show you the answer and laugh at us cause its such a common knowledge question too him.


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