# Not sure? (How old or what size are they mature?)



## Meesh (Jan 25, 2021)

Hello! Ive tried to do some research on google but i dont find the answers im looking for. I have 2 hermanns, a 5ish yr old male & a 3ish yr old female. Im housing them together. They get along GREAT! at what age do hermanns reach sexual maturity? He will clearly get there before her and if so is that dangerous for her? I dont want to put her in harms way.


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## Meesh (Jan 25, 2021)

Hello, i have 2 hermanns. A male age 5ish and a female age 3ish. I house them together. They get along GREAT! Id like to find others who have hermanns to get some advice and ask some questions. Thanks! -Meesh


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## wellington (Jan 25, 2021)

What you are thinking is'getting along great probably isnt. If you really have a Male and female, the Male I'll bug her to illness or death. They must be kept separate. Tortoise should not be kept in pairs, specially a pair that is m/f. 
Seperate them until you get a group of 1 male and 2 or 3 females. But they will need a much bigger enclosure then what it looks like you have. In fact that is way too small for one let alone two! 
Please read the caresheets in the proper species section and make changes ASAP.


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## Meesh (Jan 25, 2021)

wellington said:


> What you are thinking is'getting along great probably isnt. If you really have a Male and female, the Male I'll bug her to illness or death. They must be kept separate. Tortoise should not be kept in pairs, specially a pair that is m/f.
> Seperate them until you get a group of 1 male and 2 or 3 females. But they will need a much bigger enclosure then what it looks like you have. In fact that is way too small for one let alone two!
> Please read the caresheets in the proper species section and make changes ASAP.


The enclosure is 4 ft long by 2 ft wide its plenty big enough. The pics were all cropped around the turtles. He doesnt bother her at all. They do their own thing. She likes to burrow while he chills under the heat lamp all day. Thank you vm for the advice! I Appriciate any and all


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## wellington (Jan 25, 2021)

4x8 is a minimum for one. No its not big enough for one let alone 2. 
Read the threads about keeping 2 together. You are not seeing the signs. Many years of experience on this forum that says totally opposite then what you are. Who so you think it right?


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## bonsai tortoise (Jan 25, 2021)

Maturity depends more on size than years. Female Hermann’s can be sexually mature at as small as 5 inches for eastern hermanns. Males even smaller. From the pics it looks like you might be in that range. Having said that for this and other reasons, your enclosure is too small. Once the male gets sexually actively he will torture the female and she won’t be able to find a secure place for relief. Mating and courtship aggression is part of their natural behavior and in the wild the female has wide open spaces to run away, rocks to hide behind, bushes to hide in. In captivity we take a lot of that from them so it’s on us to provide it to the best of our ability within our means. So, the bigger the enclosure the better. While it’s possible to keep pairs together with no issues, it’s not the norm. I’ve kept some Greeks in pairs with no issues and lots of eggs. While it’s likely I probably got lucky, my enclosures are large and include a ton of features. For a pair that’s reaching maturity or at that size, I wouldn’t keep them in anything’s smaller than 3’x6’ and I’d add in plants, rocks, hides, etc to give them site barriers. I’m sure you’re very well intentioned but your 4x2 enclosure isn’t going to work and I fear you’ll have a problem on your hands soon. My winter enclosure is 12’x2 1/2’ for my small group and they’re fine but it’s also the winter when they typically slow down. When they go back outside full time they will be in a 10’x12’ enclosure.


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## Meesh (Jan 25, 2021)

bonsai tortoise said:


> Maturity depends more on size than years. Female Hermann’s can be sexually mature at as small as 5 inches for eastern hermanns. Males even smaller. From the pics it looks like you might be in that range. Having said that for this and other reasons, your enclosure is too small. Once the male gets sexually actively he will torture the female and she won’t be able to find a secure place for relief. Mating and courtship aggression is part of their natural behavior and in the wild the female has wide open spaces to run away, rocks to hide behind, bushes to hide in. In captivity we take a lot of that from them so it’s on us to provide it to the best of our ability within our means. So, the bigger the enclosure the better. While it’s possible to keep pairs together with no issues, it’s not the norm. I’ve kept some Greeks in pairs with no issues and lots of eggs. While it’s likely I probably got lucky, my enclosures are large and include a ton of features. For a pair that’s reaching maturity or at that size, I wouldn’t keep them in anything’s smaller than 3’x6’ and I’d add in plants, rocks, hides, etc to give them site barriers. I’m sure you’re very well intentioned but your 4x2 enclosure isn’t going to work and I fear you’ll have a problem on your hands soon. My winter enclosure is 12’x2 1/2’ for my small group and they’re fine but it’s also the winter when they typically slow down. When they go back outside full time they will be in a 10’x12’ enclosure.


That makes sense. Thank you for taking the time to explain that. They do have another enclosure in the works which is 3'x7' so i will most likely put one in each instead of keeping them together. After i posted this i did read that males basically torture females bitting at their face and limbs in their mating ritual. This is why i asked, id never wana put her in harms way or a stressful situation. I see them alot but i dont have eyes on them every minute of everyday.. & Yes they are both within that size range. She is a bit smaller than him. shes prob 4" and hes about 6" ... Again, thank you for your kind & informative response. Others just belittle or try to make ppl feel stupid for asking a question. So i appriciate that.


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## Meesh (Jan 25, 2021)

wellington said:


> 4x8 is a minimum for one. No its not big enough for one let alone 2.
> Read the threads about keeping 2 together. You are not seeing the signs. Many years of experience on this forum that says totally opposite then what you are. Who so you think it right?


Geesh i guess I was misinformed on the size. &
Thank you


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## Meesh (Jan 25, 2021)

Meesh said:


> Geesh i guess I was misinformed on the size. &
> Thank you


Also, i get what others have said and generally that is probably correct but ppl have gotten pairs to coexist extremely well. You would have to meet my turtles before trying to convince me otherwise. But as someone else said, they are reaching sexual maturity and he will torture her in their mating ritual and she needs an escape. So for that reason alone i plan on separating.. Again thanks!


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## wellington (Jan 25, 2021)

If it's possible for pairs to work it's not in a cage that is way too small. It would have to be a very large room or a yard with lots of site barriers, hides, feeding and water stations. Then it's still a small chance.
Btw, that's their opinion that its working. Likely they are wrong and misinformed as you were and missing all the signs.


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## Tom (Jan 25, 2021)

Meesh said:


> ... but ppl have gotten pairs to coexist extremely well.



No they haven't. They can sometimes survive in a pair, but its not good for either of them. It is very stressful and the chronic stress and reduce appetite or hamper the immune system over time. It is not a good situation. You aren't recognizing the signs. Most people don't. Following, climbing on each other, sleeping in the same spots, sleeping face to face, sitting on the food, and several other commonly seen behaviors are all signs of aggression and territoriality. Overt hostility and biting is possible but relatively rare. More often its the subtle signs that people don't realize that are seen.

Do a search for "pairs" here on the forum and you can read hours of discussion on the matter.

2x4 is much too small for a 4+ inch tortoise. Tortoises need much more room than some other pets. Large enclosures are a necessity for them.

Read this for more info:





The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise


I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...




tortoiseforum.org


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## Jan A (Jan 25, 2021)

Meesh said:


> Geesh i guess I was misinformed on the size. &
> Thank you


Meesh, I'm a newbie & I don't have my tort yet. We were house hunting today & looking at a house where they kept goats, a minature horse and smaller donkey all together in a big fenced-in area with a pond. I watched this poor mini horse fight off a donkey that wanted to mount her & she wasn't big enough to kick him with her back hooves, but she wasn't having none of it. 

You found out before your tort was hurt. That's a good thing!


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## Yossarian (Jan 26, 2021)

Hi Meesh, Tom and Wellington have both given you good advice here, I hope that you can take it on board. Im going to post a copy pasta that I posted in reply to another person just so you can see how common this issue is. The op posted asking about the enclosure size.



> "Many people come here with posts almost exactly like yours, they all say the same things, asking why one of their torts is growing slowly, that their torts get along great, they cuddle up together and eat together, etc. . . . The reality is torts dont like being around each other. Initially they will both try to get the best spot to bask and the best spot to sleep and they will try to defend all the food by sitting on it, this looks like them being buddies but they really just want the other one to take the hint and leave. Once one tort becomes dominant then it will sleep where the submissive tort sleeps, bask where it tries to bask and it will try to defend all the food and prevent the smaller one eating. In the wild the submissive tort would move on and that would be it, in your enclosure that doesnt happen so the submissive tort just gets constantly hounded and stressed, doesnt eat as much, doesnt bask as much, etc. . . . health problems develop, illness, death. . . . none of this even includes the obvious risk of actual aggressive fighting, biteing, mounting, ramming etc. . . . Most dont want to accept this guidance unfortunately, I know its inconvenient and/or sad to find out you need to keep them separate or rehome one etc. . . it's the right thing to do though."



The behaviours you identify as them getting along great are actually signs that they are not happy with each others presence. All three of the photos you have posted support this.


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## bonsai tortoise (Jan 26, 2021)

Tom said:


> No they haven't. They can sometimes survive in a pair, but its not good for either of them. It is very stressful and the chronic stress and reduce appetite or hamper the immune system over time. It is not a good situation. You aren't recognizing the signs. Most people don't. Following, climbing on each other, sleeping in the same spots, sleeping face to face, sitting on the food, and several other commonly seen behaviors are all signs of aggression and territoriality. Overt hostility and biting is possible but relatively rare. More often its the subtle signs that people don't realize that are seen.
> 
> Do a search for "pairs" here on the forum and you can read hours of discussion on the matter.
> 
> ...


Yes they have. In rare instances. With proper care, constant vigilance, and luck. But it’s something I would never recommend to a new tortoise owner especially with testudos. Even redfoot pairs that are generally peaceful are a bad idea. The male likely won’t directly hurt the female (usually) but will harass her to death. But to definitively say it’s impossible is not accurate. I have a Greek pair together now for the last 3 years. Zero issues. I kept a sulcata pair together and they always ignored each other. I gave them to a friend when they got to about 20” because of space issues and they’re now part of a larger group but in the years I had them they did great. Tortoises aren’t machines and if we study them close enough we find that all of them have different dispositions and personalities. Matching those dispositions to their general needs is key to proper keeping. The goal should be a group with proper sex ratios depending on species or separate enclosures. Even then it’s not an exact science. How many of us have had the “perfect” ratio only to find one female in that group was the harasser? That’s certainly not the norm but it happens. Point is, there are tons of ways of doing this and not all of them are wrong or just opinions. I think it’s great folks come here to seek advice. Seeking a variety of opinions and doing thorough research makes the world go round.


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## Yossarian (Jan 26, 2021)

bonsai tortoise said:


> Yes they have. In rare instances. With proper care, constant vigilance, and luck. But it’s something I would never recommend to a new tortoise owner especially with testudos. Even redfoot pairs that are generally peaceful are a bad idea. The male likely won’t directly hurt the female (usually) but will harass her to death. But to definitively say it’s impossible is not accurate. I have a Greek pair together now for the last 3 years. Zero issues. I kept a sulcata pair together and they always ignored each other. I gave them to a friend when they got to about 20” because of space issues and they’re now part of a larger group but in the years I had them they did great. Tortoises aren’t machines and if we study them close enough we find that all of them have different dispositions and personalities. Matching those dispositions to their general needs is key to proper keeping. The goal should be a group with proper sex ratios depending on species or separate enclosures. Even then it’s not an exact science. How many of us have had the “perfect” ratio only to find one female in that group was the harasser? That’s certainly not the norm but it happens. Point is, there are tons of ways of doing this and not all of them are wrong or just opinions. I think it’s great folks come here to seek advice. Seeking a variety of opinions and doing thorough research makes the world go round.



Some people smoke all their lives and live to ripe old ages. That isnt evidence that smoking isnt harmful. People with no knowledge of tortoise care will come here now and read your post and some of them might justify keeping their tortoises in unsafe conditions because you said sometimes it isnt bad. They already all think their torts are best friends . . .you just give them an excuse to not listen to best practice. They lack the knowledge base to distinguish between good and bad research. You should consider how a layman will read your posts and use the information in them, ive seen far more evidence over the years that keeping pairs is harmful than your two cases that it isnt, context is also important, if your keeping pairs in a huge enclosure that is not what we are talking about. Your post hits a nerve tbh, I see so many owners that have pairs of torts in completely unsuitable conditions, spend 5 minutes on reddit. . . To come on and contradict clear and safe advice to novice owners. . . . dissapointing, who are you helping here?


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## bonsai tortoise (Jan 26, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Some people smoke all their lives and live to ripe old ages. That isnt evidence that smoking isnt harmful. People with no knowledge of tortoise care will come here now and read your post and some of them might justify keeping their tortoises in unsafe conditions because you said sometimes it isnt bad. They already all think their torts are best friends . . .you just give them an excuse to not listen to best practice. They lack the knowledge base to distinguish between good and bad research. You should consider how a layman will read your posts and use the information in them, ive seen far more evidence over the years that keeping pairs is harmful than your two cases that it isnt, context is also important, if your keeping pairs in a huge enclosure that is not what we are talking about. Your post hits a nerve tbh, I see so many owners that have pairs of torts in completely unsuitable conditions, spend 5 minutes on reddit. . . To come on and contradict clear and safe advice to novice owners. . . . dissapointing, who are you helping here?


I’m pretty sure I outlined it’s not the best idea and emphasized that research is important. The point is there is no definitive way to do things and people with good intentions who are doing it wrong should have a safe place to get feedback so they feel comfortable continuing to come back to get advice and continue to tweak their care until they get it right. Likely 90% of what I do is the same as most experienced people on this forum do it. But the remaining 10% is how I do it based on my experience. Everyone is going to have different circumstances that make them adjust to different ways of keeping. It’s important people also get different viewpoints and that the community welcome people with supportive advice. It’s how I do it, take it or leave it. Either way, I’m good.


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## Meesh (Jan 26, 2021)

wellington said:


> If it's possible for pairs to work it's not in a cage that is way too small. It would have to be a very large room or a yard with lots of site barriers, hides, feeding and water stations. Then it's still a small chance.
> Btw, that's their opinion that its working. Likely they are wrong and misinformed as you were and missing all the signs.





Yossarian said:


> Some people smoke all their lives and live to ripe old ages. That isnt evidence that smoking isnt harmful. People with no knowledge of tortoise care will come here now and read your post and some of them might justify keeping their tortoises in unsafe conditions because you said sometimes it isnt bad. They already all think their torts are best friends . . .you just give them an excuse to not listen to best practice. They lack the knowledge base to distinguish between good and bad research. You should consider how a layman will read your posts and use the information in them, ive seen far more evidence over the years that keeping pairs is harmful than your two cases that it isnt, context is also important, if your keeping pairs in a huge enclosure that is not what we are talking about. Your post hits a nerve tbh, I see so many owners that have pairs of torts in completely unsuitable conditions, spend 5 minutes on reddit. . . To come on and contradict clear and safe advice to novice owners. . . . dissapointing, who are you helping here?


Not once did


Yossarian said:


> Some people smoke all their lives and live to ripe old ages. That isnt evidence that smoking isnt harmful. People with no knowledge of tortoise care will come here now and read your post and some of them might justify keeping their tortoises in unsafe conditions because you said sometimes it isnt bad. They already all think their torts are best friends . . .you just give them an excuse to not listen to best practice. They lack the knowledge base to distinguish between good and bad research. You should consider how a layman will read your posts and use the information in them, ive seen far more evidence over the years that keeping pairs is harmful than your two cases that it isnt, context is also important, if your keeping pairs in a huge enclosure that is not what we are talking about. Your post hits a nerve tbh, I see so many owners that have pairs of torts in completely unsuitable conditions, spend 5 minutes on reddit. . . To come on and contradict clear and safe advice to novice owners. . . . dissapointing, who are you helping here?


Not once did Bonsai Tortoise say that it's a good idea for anyone to try it. Simply said that its inaccurate to say it's impossible. The comment didnt promote pairing tortoises. Also just bc i am new to this group does not mean im a new turtle owner. Ive raised box turtles for almost 20 years. I'm by far a tortoise expert but there is no need to belittle or talk down to people asking questions. My tortoises being housed together wasnt even the topic of my question. I wanted to know when they'd reach sexual maturity from othet hermann owner's and seeing if she was in danger from him being older/bigger. I do know the signs of aggression in torts, such as head bobbing, sitting on the food dish, ramming, posture.. The only time mine go anywhere near each other is when they bask under the heat lamp together. Other than that they do their own thing acting like the other doesnt even exist. Hense why i said they get along great.. New member does not necessarily mean new owner, Nor does it mean uneducated. Was just asking other hermann owners about sexual maturity. Thanks to everyone for all the advice!


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## Yossarian (Jan 26, 2021)

Meesh said:


> Not once did
> 
> Not once did Bonsai Tortoise say that it's a good idea for anyone to try it. Simply said that its inaccurate to say it's impossible. The comment didnt promote pairing tortoises. Also just bc i am new to this group does not mean im a new turtle owner. Ive raised box turtles for almost 20 years. I'm by far a tortoise expert but there is no need to belittle or talk down to people asking questions. My tortoises being housed together wasnt even the topic of my question. I wanted to know when they'd reach sexual maturity from othet hermann owner's and seeing if she was in danger from him being older/bigger. I do know the signs of aggression in torts, such as head bobbing, sitting on the food dish, ramming, posture.. The only time mine go anywhere near each other is when they bask under the heat lamp together. Other than that they do their own thing acting like the other doesnt even exist. Hense why i said they get along great.. New member does not necessarily mean new owner, Nor does it mean uneducated. Was just asking other hermann owners about sexual maturity. Thanks to everyone for all the advice!



Your keeping two juvenile hermans tortoises in a hamster cage. . . smh, lets not act like youve got it all figured out. And frankly, to Bonsai, it took one post to prove my point thank you.


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## Mrs.Jennifer (Jan 26, 2021)

Meesh said:


> Also, i get what others have said and generally that is probably correct but ppl have gotten pairs to coexist extremely well. You would have to meet my turtles before trying to convince me otherwise. But as someone else said, they are reaching sexual maturity and he will torture her in their mating ritual and she needs an escape. So for that reason alone i plan on separating.. Again thanks!


Perhaps I can help...at times when I am trying to weigh a decision and its risk, I ask myself, “If I choose this, can I live with the consequences if I’m wrong?” If the answer is “no,” I err on the side of caution. Good choices come from not waiting until there are signs of something wrong.


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## Yossarian (Jan 26, 2021)

Ive been pretty blunt in my responses in this thread and I stand by my position in them but I will apologise to @Meesh if I have offended, my initial post was not intended to belittle, or even to call you a novice, though there is no shame in that status, we all started at the beginning. I am however, also mindful that these threads get viewed by many more people than the person asking the question and it is the presentation of needless contradictory information to those people that is frustrating. Nevertheless, it was not my intention to make you feel bad so im sorry if I have.


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## Tom (Jan 26, 2021)

bonsai tortoise said:


> Yes they have. In rare instances. With proper care, constant vigilance, and luck. But it’s something I would never recommend to a new tortoise owner especially with testudos. Even redfoot pairs that are generally peaceful are a bad idea. The male likely won’t directly hurt the female (usually) but will harass her to death. But to definitively say it’s impossible is not accurate. I have a Greek pair together now for the last 3 years. Zero issues. I kept a sulcata pair together and they always ignored each other. I gave them to a friend when they got to about 20” because of space issues and they’re now part of a larger group but in the years I had them they did great. Tortoises aren’t machines and if we study them close enough we find that all of them have different dispositions and personalities. Matching those dispositions to their general needs is key to proper keeping. The goal should be a group with proper sex ratios depending on species or separate enclosures. Even then it’s not an exact science. How many of us have had the “perfect” ratio only to find one female in that group was the harasser? That’s certainly not the norm but it happens. Point is, there are tons of ways of doing this and not all of them are wrong or just opinions. I think it’s great folks come here to seek advice. Seeking a variety of opinions and doing thorough research makes the world go round.


No they haven't. No one has gotten pairs to "coexist extremely well". Some people some of the time keep them in pairs, and they didn't get sick or die during that time. Doesn't mean it was a good situation.

Because you fail to recognize the signs, and because your pair survived, does not make this a good practice. One of them will be dominant and the other submissive. This is true of all life forms, and as Will once pointed out, this is even true of flatworms. Pair dynamics are full of problems. Because two tortoises living together are still alive does not mean these problems weren't there. I agree that all torts have differing personalities. Some are more tolerant that others, but this does not make it okay to keep them in pairs, or tell other people that you think its sometimes okay to keep them in pairs. It isn't.


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## Tom (Jan 26, 2021)

Meesh said:


> I do know the signs of aggression in torts, such as head bobbing, sitting on the food dish, ramming, posture..


This is what we try so hard to get across and keepers both new and old fail to realize. What you are talking about are all overt obvious signs of aggression. There is a lot more subtlety going on that the vast majority of tortoise keepers miss. The long term chronic stress caused by these subtle signs take a toll. Some survive it, some eventually don't. Because some of them survive it, doesn't mean everything was fine and they got along well.


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## Meesh (Jan 26, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Your keeping two juvenile hermans tortoises in a hamster cage. . . smh, lets not act like youve got it all figured out. And frankly, to Bonsai, it took one post to prove my point thank you.


I'm here asking questions so CLEARLY I do not think I have it all figured out lol... By the way the cage those pics were taken in is a 2'x6' custom cage.. Hamsters dont live in cages that big lol.. Heres a pic of their "hamster cage" gotta love know it alls


Yossarian said:


> Your keeping two juvenile hermans tortoises in a hamster cage. . . smh, lets not act like youve got it all figured out. And frankly, to Bonsai, it took one post to prove my point thank you.


I'm here asking questions so CLEARLY I do not think I have it all figured out lol... By the way the cage those pics were taken in is a 2'x6' custom cage.. Hamsters dont live in cages that big lol.. But heres a pic of their "hamster cage" gotta love know it alls smh... Im through talking to you. Please move on..


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## Meesh (Jan 26, 2021)

Tom said:


> This is what we try so hard to get across and keepers both new and old fail to realize. What you are talking about are all overt obvious signs of aggression. There is a lot more subtlety going on that the vast majority of tortoise keepers miss. The long term chronic stress caused by these subtle signs take a toll. Some survive it, some eventually don't. Because some of them survive it, doesn't mean everything was fine and they got along well.


Ya I understand what you're saying.. Thank you


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## Meesh (Jan 26, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Ive been pretty blunt in my responses in this thread and I stand by my position in them but I will apologise to @Meesh if I have offended, my initial post was not intended to belittle, or even to call you a novice, though there is no shame in that status, we all started at the beginning. I am however, also mindful that these threads get viewed by many more people than the person asking the question and it is the presentation of needless contradictory information to those people that is frustrating. Nevertheless, it was not my intention to make you feel bad so im sorry if I have.


Thank you, I apologise for snapping back at you. Im not here for arguing with anyone, i love my torts to the moon & am just here to learn. Thanks again to everyone.. P.s They are no longer together.


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## bonsai tortoise (Jan 26, 2021)

Tom said:


> No they haven't. No one has gotten pairs to "coexist extremely well". Some people some of the time keep them in pairs, and they didn't get sick or die during that time. Doesn't mean it was a good situation.
> 
> Because you fail to recognize the signs, and because your pair survived, does not make this a good practice. One of them will be dominant and the other submissive. This is true of all life forms, and as Will once pointed out, this is even true of flatworms. Pair dynamics are full of problems. Because two tortoises living together are still alive does not mean these problems weren't there. I agree that all torts have differing personalities. Some are more tolerant that others, but this does not make it okay to keep them in pairs, or tell other people that you think its sometimes okay to keep them in pairs. It isn't.


Okie dokie. Sound advice.


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## Yossarian (Jan 27, 2021)

Meesh said:


> Thank you, I apologise for snapping back at you. Im not here for arguing with anyone, i love my torts to the moon & am just here to learn. Thanks again to everyone.. P.s They are no longer together.



No need to apologise, you came in good faith and havent said or done anything wrong here, I was taking issue with another member in your thread and I snapped at you. I just hope it doesnt discourage you sticking around, its certainly not the norm around here.


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## Redfoot954 (Jan 27, 2021)

Mann some of these "custom cages" are horrible looking i feel bad for tortoises that have to live in these conditions .. Not sure how this is even legal ...


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