# TURTLES VS TORTOISE



## bikerchicspain (May 6, 2011)

Which carries the most bacteria Torts or turtles ?

I would also like for you to post your opinions.

to get things started i found this..
http://www.cdc.gov/healthypets/spotlight_an_turtles.htm
http://www.fda.gov/forconsumers/consumerupdates/ucm048151.htm


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## Baoh (May 6, 2011)

The most would depend on the individual animal, whether turtle, tortoise, or piece of chicken on a cutting board, and its microbial load.

I participate in round tables with the FDA frequently as well as have direct experience with salmonella-shigella plating in cGMP testing environments and I would like an explanation for how either of those two links gets things started when it comes to comparing microbial load between tortoises and turtles when they are general advisories about salmonella that pay mention to turtles (and other sources mentioned) as means of transmission. That is called a red herring.


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## ALDABRAMAN (May 6, 2011)

Shoot, I voted tortoise before I read the question, I vote turtle.


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## CtTortoiseMom (May 6, 2011)

Baoh said:


> The most would depend on the individual animal, whether turtle, tortoise, or piece of chicken on a cutting board, and its microbial load.
> 
> I participate in round tables with the FDA frequently as well as have direct experience with salmonella-shigella plating in cGMP testing environments and I would like an explanation for how either of those two links gets things started when it comes to comparing microbial load between tortoises and turtles when they are general advisories about salmonella that pay mention to turtles (and other sources mentioned) as means of transmission. That is called a red herring.



I agree it would have to depend on exposure. 
Baoh,
Your post's are very informative. Are you a microbiologist? MD but work's on the research side of thing's? I have wondered this for awhile and obviously I understand if you do not wish to share.


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## Isa (May 6, 2011)

If I am not mistaken, bacterias multiply in water. IMO The tortoise only has a water dish but a turtle lives in more humidity and with more water in an acquarium so I guess I would say turtles but tortoises can cary the same bacterias...


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## Angi (May 6, 2011)

I said turtle because they are meat eaters.

I said turtle because they are meat eaters.


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## TortieLuver (May 6, 2011)

Turtle. I agree that water plays a part in the increase in bacteria.


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## Fernando (May 6, 2011)

I agree. He does sound like a microbiologist. =)


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## DeanS (May 6, 2011)

The thing is that most ponds and creeks are so laden with bacteria...that most turtles don't stand a chance! They survive because (in most cases) they are exposed from the start...in the egg! If the parents are carriers then they are likely to be, as well! Of course, sea turtles would have to be excluded from this...given all the healing properties of the ocean



Angi said:


> I said turtle because they are meat eaters.
> 
> I said turtle because they are meat eaters.





Most turtles are only meat-eaters until they reach maturity...yes? Then they become more omnivorous (leaning more toward herbivore/folivore)...with a few exceptions.


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## Baoh (May 6, 2011)

CtTortoiseMom said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> > The most would depend on the individual animal, whether turtle, tortoise, or piece of chicken on a cutting board, and its microbial load.
> ...



I am a biologist by undergrad education, but I have worked in a microbiology lab, a Quality Control small molecule chemistry lab, and I currently am a biotech/biologics research and development scientist for a major pharmaceutical company. My projects have a broad span in terms of modalities and indications. I also have an affiliation with a major Midwestern University's research programs and am attaining a graduate business degree from that same University. I don't mind sharing (to a point). 

-------------------------------------------

The problem with this is it's a completely apples and oranges comparison. A turtle might carry more of one type of bacteria and less of another that a tortoise carries. A smaller turtle may carry less bacteria than a larger tortoise. A coprophagic tortoise would have different bacteria than one that happens to be more necrophagous. A turtle in "dirtier" water would have more of particular types than one in "clean" (not clean at all, really) water. Dirty water soiled by feces confined to a small tank versus stagnant pond conditions versus soiled by rotting animal-based food versus soiled by plant-based food would all yield potentially different outcomes in terms of loads and strains. A tortoise that wallows in a small watering hole or depression will be quite different than one that tends to constantly roam across dry grasses. Then there a species-adapted symbiotic relationships. Then there are pathogenic to human versus pathogenic to tortoise versus pathogenic to none/both. It's far more extensive than the current framing.

Unless it's actually examined, a statement in any definitive direction on the matter would constitute a claim without proof and polls are collections of opinions, with opinions having zero influence on the actual status. Popular opinions used to hold that "bad humors" caused illness, but that had and has no bearing on the true nature of what was/is taking place.

The facts, whatever they may be, yield to nothing. Consensus included.  

Since I see no body of evidence, I won't jump to a premature, ill-defined, and likely baseless conclusion based only on feeling. Instead, I recognize that I do not know the answer, but it is painful as an exercise in logic to see those without evidence claim they do while utterly lacking the very same things I lack. 



Isa said:


> If I am not mistaken, bacterias multiply in water. IMO The tortoise only has a water dish but a turtle lives in more humidity and with more water in an acquarium so I guess I would say turtles but tortoises can cary the same bacterias...



Your keyboard is coated in bacteria. It has less water than your skin's surface, a turtle's skin, and a tortoise's skin. In a room devoid of humidity, your body will be covered in bacteria including Staph aureus, which is a much more fun pathogen to deal with than the tired salmonella example that inevitably gets dragged out in these sorts of conversations.

Also, spores don't care about whether water is currently present or not. 




DeanS said:


> The thing is that most ponds and creeks are so laden with bacteria...that most turtles don't stand a chance! They survive because (in most cases) they are exposed from the start...in the egg! If the parents are carriers then they are likely to be, as well! Of course, sea turtles would have to be excluded from this...given all the healing properties of the ocean
> 
> 
> 
> ...







Yet, still, if you take an animal hatched and raised in a low-load environment and put it in the nastiest bacteria-laden pond that suits its other requirements, it would likely do quite well. Their immune systems are incredibly strong against things not specifically adapted to infect them. It started earlier on the phylogenetic trees. When I stop to think about it, earthworms and such are outright incredible. Amphibians, too. An amphibian egg is effectively sterile within its envelope before a certain point. It is hit with everything at once like a meteorite shower and, via the eons of selection that have taken place, it robustly thrives. Many organisms are this way (if not most). 

Every organism is effectively a genetically engineered survival machine thanks to nature's harshness. It's a beautiful concept.


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## Az tortoise compound (May 6, 2011)

Baoh said:


> CtTortoiseMom said:
> 
> 
> > Baoh said:
> ...





Ummm........I vote turtle. Based on the fact more turtle species look gross to me than tortoise species


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## DeanS (May 6, 2011)

Baoh said:


> CtTortoiseMom said:
> 
> 
> > Baoh said:
> ...








Understood...but here's my escape! I was looking at your question as it would relate to other species susceptibility to contracting said bacteria.



Az tortoise compound said:


> Ummm........I vote turtle. Based on the fact more turtle species look gross to me than tortoise species



ROTFLMMFAO! Hilarious Mick! 

BTW...On that other subject...I'll have an answer for you before the day is out!


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## Baoh (May 6, 2011)

Ha. It's all good. For me, it's more about how to approach thinking about it, including all of the points that everyone has raised (and have yet to raise), than trying to make a hard and fast decision for the sake of it. Human beings generally, myself included, find some psychological comfort in categorization, so the temptation to draw a line early is always there.


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## DeanS (May 6, 2011)

Baoh said:


> Human beings generally, myself included, find some psychological comfort in categorization, so the temptation to draw a line early is always there.



So true!


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## Laura (May 6, 2011)

I'll never look at my keyboard the same again!

but I would vote/guess turtle...


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## bikerchicspain (May 6, 2011)

We are going of the point here, the question is not which one serves a greater risk to humans, but which serves a greater risk to the other, the tortoise to the turtle or the turtle to the tortoise?
This is not a debate on scientific terms, But a debate from the people that live day in day out with these reptiles, sometimes science has to look from the outside in, instead of the inside out,:shy:


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## Angi (May 6, 2011)

I don't think most understood that to be the question Yvonne. I didn't but will reread it. I may have scimmed it. I am more careful about cross contamination with my turtle germs going to my tortoises. My turtle doesn't eat non-meat things very well. She will eat fruit but will not touch any greens. I think that causes the poop to have more bacteria. That is a very UN scientfic oppinion.

I don't think most understood that to be the question Yvonne. I didn't but will reread it. I may have scimmed it. I am more careful about cross contamination with my turtle germs going to my tortoises. My turtle doesn't eat non-meat things very well. She will eat fruit but will not touch any greens. I think that causes the poop to have more bacteria. That is a very UN scientfic oppinion.


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## dmarcus (May 6, 2011)

I vote turtle as well and I have seen some nasty ponds with RES living in them..


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## dmmj (May 6, 2011)

Boah said
"Your keyboard is coated in bacteria. It has less water than your skin's surface, a turtle's skin, and a tortoise's skin. In a room devoid of humidity, your body will be covered in bacteria including Staph aureus"

I feel dirty and I think I will go take a shower now.


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## Baoh (May 6, 2011)

bikerchicspain said:


> We are going of the point here, the question is not which one serves a greater risk to humans, but which serves a greater risk to the other, the tortoise to the turtle or the turtle to the tortoise?
> This is not a debate on scientific terms, But a debate from the people that live day in day out with these reptiles, sometimes science has to look from the outside in, instead of the inside out,:shy:



Well, that would be easy to quantify if people can provide adequate numbers of documented cases where one transmitted an actual pathogenic infection to the other and the strain's origin was genetically confirmed to have been sourced to the offending animal. Surely people have droves of these cases to draw from so that they would not simply be making it up out of thin air, since that would be irresponsible.

Speaking of science...

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Vet Microbiol. 2007 Jan 31;119(2-4):311-5. Epub 2006 Aug 17.
Salmonella in free living terrestrial and aquatic turtles.
Hidalgo-Vila J, DÃ­az-Paniagua C, de Frutos-Escobar C, JimÃ©nez-MartÃ­nez C, PÃ©rez-Santigosa N.
Source

EstaciÃ³n BiolÃ³gica de DoÃ±ana, CSIC, Avda. MarÃ­a Luisa s/n, 41013 Sevilla, Spain. [email protected]
Abstract

Detection of Salmonella in pet turtles has been the focus of extensive research, but its incidence in free living turtles is not well known. The aim of this study was to evaluate the incidence of Salmonella in terrestrial and aquatic species of chelonians inhabiting a National Park in southwestern Spain. Individuals of the terrestrial tortoise Testudo graeca (n = 16) and the aquatic turtles Emys orbicularis (n = 26) and Mauremys leprosa (n = 50) were investigated. Maximum incidence of Salmonella was recorded in the terrestrial species (100%). In contrast, the incidence of infected animals was low in the aquatic species, 12% in M. leprosa and 15.4% in E. orbicularis. Five serotypes of Salmonella belonging to subspecies enterica (I) and salamae (II) were identified. All serotypes were found in the terrestrial species, and three in the aquatic ones, suggesting that wild terrestrial chelonians are important reservoirs of Salmonella in our study area. Cloacal transmission during mating is the most probable mode of transmission among individuals.

PMID:
16979850
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 

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Now, with that said, I have looked at quite a few papers that touch upon incidence rates and it is highly variable and, as I suspected, individual-dependent. Even in the same environment.

Of course, salmonella doesn't normally cause effective pathogenesis in chelonians anyway, so that's typically a non-issue. Ref: "Salmonella species
are considered to be part of the normal microbiological
intestinal flora of reptiles (Chiodini and Sundberg 1981,
Pasmans and others 2000)."

There are some exceptions, but they are just that- genuine exceptions, such as in one case where, ironically, a single Greek tortoise (out of literally hundreds living together in a captive space) became severely infected by a strain known best in association with _humans_, birds, and some non-human mammals.

Science is about method and evidence. Bias is about confirming preconceptions while purposefully ignoring bodies of alternative evidence.


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## Terry Allan Hall (May 7, 2011)

Turtles, if we're talking pets...keeping a turtle tank clean is a never-ending hassle!


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## Angi (May 7, 2011)

My Box turtles pen is easy to clean, but I still feel like she is dirty. She will get a vet check before she goes in her new pen.

My Box turtles pen is easy to clean, but I still feel like she is dirty. She will get a vet check before she goes in her new pen.


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## Jacob (May 7, 2011)

Turtles, Because They Live In Water, Eat A Different Diet.
The Rest is Said All Above


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## bikerchicspain (May 8, 2011)

Thanks guys for taking part!


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## dmmj (May 8, 2011)

If we are talking about which I am personally more "afraid" of catching salmonella from ,then it is neither since I always wash my hands after handling my tortoise(s) or turtle(s).


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## bikerchicspain (May 9, 2011)

dmmj said:


> If we are talking about which I am personally more "afraid" of catching salmonella from ,then it is neither since I always wash my hands after handling my tortoise(s) or turtle(s).



Actually salmonella in turtles has almost been eradicated,the worst ones at the moment are Iguanas,

I get told off at work because I never use gloves for anything, then forget to wash my hands, I have a fantastic immune system, I think the poor reptile is more likely to get something from me.


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## Angi (May 9, 2011)

I am carful about spreading human germs to my torts. Like not giving them water from a bottle a human has drank out of.


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## Angi (May 9, 2011)

I am carful about spreading human germs to my torts. Like not giving them water from a bottle a human has drank out of.


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## Tom (May 9, 2011)

My initial inclination is to vote for turtles due to the diet and aquatic housing, but Baoh makes some really good points AND the data he provided DOES suggest otherwise. I think Baoh is right when he says (paraphrasing here) that it really does depend on the individual turtle or tortoise at that moment in time.

Yvonne, I never use gloves either, although I do wash my hands quite a bit. On a related note, I just had my four year well baby check up with my daughter. Our pediatrician told me that one reason why she seldom gets sick, even though she's surrounded by sick kids all the time in pre-school, is because we let her dig in the dirt and play with the animals all the time. Acquired immunity. She teaches the boys who come over to play how to dig for worms in the back yard. We have a "catch and release" program here at our house. Sorry, minor sidetrack...


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## bikerchicspain (May 9, 2011)

My kids are the same, I am not a mother that has to keep the kids pristine all the time, they are kids and they are boys, the dirtier,the happier they are, I know I was as a kid,
They love digging and on Saturday we were in a restaurant with the whole family and my son comes in from playing outside with a large snail and plinks it on the table and told his nan to look after him, because he was taking him home.


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## HankC13 (May 9, 2011)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> Shoot, I voted tortoise before I read the question, I vote turtle.



I voted before I read too


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