# Refusing to show breeding facility?



## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 18, 2018)

~ Why would a well known retailer refuse or decline to show a potential customer pictures of the breeding facility where they get the tortoises they sale. This really strikes me as odd, anyone have any thoughts or possible reasons other than guarding or protecting the source?


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## Millerlite (Sep 18, 2018)

Interesting thread, not sure the exact answer. But could range from some shady stuff going down, to just not letting photos leak for safety of the actual place. If your in the business though you should want to show the husbandry and show off the parents and all that you would think. I am going to follow this thread, Have me interested. Can't wait to hear from some of the breeders we have, and "retailors" we have on here. 

Kyle


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## orv (Sep 18, 2018)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> ~ Why would a well known retailer refuse or decline to show a potential customer pictures of the breeding facility where they get the tortoises they sale. This really strikes me as odd, anyone have any thoughts or possible reasons other than guarding or protecting the source?


Pet retailers often recieve their "for sale" items from multiple resources, ie various breeding facilities. These for sale tortoises are recieved at distribution centers first, prior to movement to the individual retail stores. The retailer may have no idea of the provenance of their tortoises. It is clearly in the interest of the customer to purchase from a well-known breeder.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 18, 2018)

orv said:


> t is clearly in the interest of the customer to purchase from a well-known breeder.



~ 100%


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## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 18, 2018)

Millerlite said:


> Interesting thread, not sure the exact answer.



~ There could be many reasons, this is so true. Being very safe and careful, we take precautions to not disclose our location and certain things we feel are privileged or propriety. This just makes sense at many levels, however when someone is interested in purchasing a hatching from us, i made every effort to provide them with any pictures they would like, especially of the actual tortoises available. Not offering location disclosure is totally understandable, however generic pictures of your overall program seems like almost a must for any reasonable potential customers.


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## Toddrickfl1 (Sep 19, 2018)

Perhaps the tortoises aren't coming from a breeding facility and they are coming from the wild?


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## JoesMum (Sep 19, 2018)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> Perhaps the tortoises aren't coming from a breeding facility and they are coming from the wild?


Or it is scam and the tortoises don't actually exist.


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## Tim Carlisle (Sep 19, 2018)

One other perspective: perhaps the breeders don't want their "trade secrets" to become public. Not saying that's the case by any means, but just throwing it out there as a possibility.


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## KarenSoCal (Sep 19, 2018)

Or their facilities aren't up to par and they are afraid buyers would be scared off?


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 19, 2018)

In the absence of knowledge we speculate wildly.

I rarely have people come to my place, it has much to do with how I was raised and the influence of my working in my father's printing plant as a child. Most people who sought to 'come see where it all happens' just wanted an amusement. It takes time away from productivity, and leads to further speculation by the visitors of what they saw but did not ask about.

If you want images of specific set-up or enclosures, that's great, as as well as the adults the neonates come from. That too takes time, but it's a much more easily managed bit of time than a live visit, which leads to all kinds of strangeness. If the person wants to buy a leopard tortoise then they spend 2 hours of your time looking at spider tortoises, and asking a bazillion questions, that they will never buy, it's a huge waste of time. 

I'm always happy to share what I think I know, but at my convenience, not yours. 

Most breeders do not have a 'separate visitor experience' place, it's a part of their home. It's my home, and I am not so keen to have people I only know through a mutual interest walking around in my house. I am very flattered when someone invites me into their home, that is the most private of spaces. The big "you will never come here, EVER" is when the entitled attitude shows up. So, you spent $200 on a leopard tortoise, you are entitled to a healthy thriving animal, we can chat about husbandry on the phone, in email, here on TFO, but you are NOT entitled to come into my home.

I suppose when some land is acquired and a more formal 'farm' is built I will sort out way for school kids, small interested groups, and maybe even people interested in some kind of academic research, to have access, but not my home.


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## wellington (Sep 19, 2018)

My opinion is from not only being a dog breeder, of at that time expensive dog breed, but also a purchaser of said breed and of purebred cats. Any one not willing to show their facilities and all who lives there is someone you run from and don't look back. This means not only pictures, but showing them in person too should they want to purchase in person. Anyone doing things right, is happy and proud to show it off! 
Caution needs to be taken into consideration. However, those your speaking too are much less a worry then those you don't hear from.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 19, 2018)

I'm afraid I'm with Will on this one. Because I have my tortoise operation at my home, I'm hesitant to allow just anyone access. I'm more than willing to send pictures of the adult animals, the incubators and the baby habitats, but I don't want every Tom, Richard and Mary to come here to my home. It would be a different story if I had a regular business locale.


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## EdMurphy (Sep 19, 2018)

We have had a bad experience with people that came over claiming they wanted to buy rabbits. They where PETA and a problem with animals in cages and pens, tried to cause problems for us and harass us. Also there are concerns with what people are tracking into the farm, even the vets need to take precautions when the get out of the car. No more visitors, now most sales are done at judging shows, 4H or meet someplace else.


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## SweetGreekTorts (Sep 19, 2018)

I don't mind showing close friends and people I know very well around my home, because I trust them. But there's also rising crime and the last thing I would want is for someone I hardly know to have toured my home and seen all my tortoises, and return when I'm not home and help themselves. I would be devastated. So for me it would be a matter of security and safety. I put a lot of money and time and care into my tortoises.


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## wellington (Sep 19, 2018)

If you do it right, you will have information on the person coming to your home. Now days, not when I was breeding, you have the luxury of the internet. You can ask for all kinds of info of the future visitor, even a picture. 
Puppy Mills/nasty breeders are the ones that won't let you show up. 
Another way is to require a deposit before they show. This way you know they are serious about purchasing and not just wanting too see what you have.


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## Tom (Sep 19, 2018)

Will said:


> In the absence of knowledge we speculate wildly.
> 
> I rarely have people come to my place, it has much to do with how I was raised and the influence of my working in my father's printing plant as a child. Most people who sought to 'come see where it all happens' just wanted an amusement. It takes time away from productivity, and leads to further speculation by the visitors of what they saw but did not ask about.
> 
> ...



I don't think the original question was about having people visit in person and taking up a lot of time. I think anyone can understand why visitors would not be allowed. The original question was only about showing a few pics of the breeding facility.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 19, 2018)

Tom said:


> I don't think the original question was about having people visit in person and taking up a lot of time. I think anyone can understand why visitors would not be allowed. The original question was only about showing a few pics of the breeding facility.



Did I get carried away responding? What's the dealio Tom? I thoroughly enjoyed visiting your work place where you have a staff to help with all your animal stuff as well as visiting your home and meeting your family. You are welcome to my home.

I said this too

"
If you want images of specific set-up or enclosures, that's great, as as well as the adults the neonates come from. That too takes time, but it's a much more easily managed bit of time than a live visit, which leads to all kinds of strangeness. ...

I'm always happy to share what I think I know, but at my convenience, not yours. "

Too much @ALDABRAMAN ?


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## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 19, 2018)

Will said:


> In the absence of knowledge we speculate wildly.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 19, 2018)

Tom said:


> Too much @ALDABRAMAN ?



~ No sir, thank you. I often don't see the easiest and most obvious things at times, lol, always good to get as many opinions as possible. Just a curious question. When this particular post came up recently in a unrelated conversation with a customer, my first thoughts were simply guarding the location of the sellers source(s) and/or he simply does not have any.


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## Tom (Sep 19, 2018)

Will said:


> Did I get carried away responding? What's the dealio Tom? I thoroughly enjoyed visiting your work place where you have a staff to help with all your animal stuff as well as visiting your home and meeting your family. You are welcome to my home.



I thoroughly enjoyed showing you guys around! Its great to get to show your stuff to other tortoise nerds!

But I would never allow potential buyers or anyone else I didn't know to come to the ranch. Friends and people I know are welcome though. The funny thing for me is that I feel like I get to know people through this forum. You and Yvonne, and Aldabraman too, are people I've met and talked to just from this forum, but I'd have no problem inviting you guys over. Barb too along with a few others. Dean visits me once in a while, and he's long over due for a visit. Hear that @DeanS ? LONG overdue...

I guess my point is that I can understand why someone wouldn't want people they don't know checkin' out their stuff in person, but sending a few pics to a potential buyer should be no problem for any breeder. I suspect the person in Aldabraman's post is a broker or re-seller. They either don't have pics, or the pics would show that its not their facility, or asking the real breeder for pics might cause a problem somehow or other.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 20, 2018)

Tom said:


> I thoroughly enjoyed showing you guys around! Its great to get to show your stuff to other tortoise nerds!
> 
> But I would never allow potential buyers or anyone else I didn't know to come to the ranch. Friends and people I know are welcome though. The funny thing for me is that I feel like I get to know people through this forum. You and Yvonne, and Aldabraman too, are people I've met and talked to just from this forum, but I'd have no problem inviting you guys over. Barb too along with a few others. Dean visits me once in a while, and he's long over due for a visit. Hear that @DeanS ? LONG overdue...
> 
> I guess my point is that I can understand why someone wouldn't want people they don't know checkin' out their stuff in person, but sending a few pics to a potential buyer should be no problem for any breeder. I suspect the person in Aldabraman's post is a broker or re-seller. They either don't have pics, or the pics would show that its not their facility, or asking the real breeder for pics might cause a problem somehow or other.



We met-up at a show or two first, remember the psychedelic ZooMed shirt. All good.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 20, 2018)

Tom said:


> I suspect the person in Aldabraman's post is a broker or re-seller. They either don't have pics, or the pics would show that its not their facility, or asking the real breeder for pics might cause a problem somehow or other.



~ My thoughts also.


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## SPILL (Sep 20, 2018)

I see a lot of pics used on websites that are taken from other sites. A quick image search is all it takes to find out if the pic is stolen. If you take pics of your facility specifically for one person then that person could use the pics, which would be unique, without being busted by an image search. Not saying that is the case, but it would be a legitimate reason I think.


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## pepsiandjac (Sep 21, 2018)

I saw this thread, He has posted a couple of links to youtube,and then you can see his other videos.
I've seen him post a lot on Facebook,usually on Ed Pirogs group


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## Yvonne G (Sep 28, 2018)

SPILL said:


> I see a lot of pics used on websites that are taken from other sites. A quick image search is all it takes to find out if the pic is stolen. If you take pics of your facility specifically for one person then that person could use the pics, which would be unique, without being busted by an image search. Not saying that is the case, but it would be a legitimate reason I think.


That's why I don't accept pictures through email in lieu of me actually going to the property to do a pre-adoption yard inspection.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 28, 2018)

wellington said:


> If you do it right, you will have information on the person coming to your home. Now days, not when I was breeding, you have the luxury of the internet. You can ask for all kinds of info of the future visitor, even a picture.
> Puppy Mills/nasty breeders are the ones that won't let you show up.
> Another way is to require a deposit before they show. This way you know they are serious about purchasing and not just wanting too see what you have.


When doing adoptions, I first go to the people's yard, that means I have THEIR address. Plus, I have their phone number from caller I.D. So I feel pretty safe allowing those people to come here to look at tortoises. But If someone just calls me because they saw my ad on craigslist and want to come see tortoises, I don't allow that.


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## KarenSoCal (Sep 28, 2018)

Yvonne G said:


> When doing adoptions, I first go to the people's yard, that means I have THEIR address. Plus, I have their phone number from caller I.D. So I feel pretty safe allowing those people to come here to look at tortoises. But If someone just calls me because they saw my ad on craigslist and want to come see tortoises, I don't allow that.


My gosh...just be safe! Maybe have a neighbor or friend with you when "lookers" come?


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## TylerStewart (Sep 28, 2018)

Like most, we don't have unknown people come over just because it's our home and private space. We have had family friends come by, and a few boy scout or cub scout groups have gotten some pretty cool tours here. A YouTube video will be happening next month of a full walk through that will show just about everything.

I don't mind sending photos for reasonable requests, particularly for a customer or past customer, but sending photos to people that just ask can get very time consuming, especially when you grant them because that just makes it happen more and more. We have gotten to the point where we provide photos to people after they purchase of a group of tortoises they can choose from. If they wanted to see the enclosure it came out of, I don't have a problem with that. Often, if someone asks for a photo of the available leopards (or whatever), I already have that photo on my phone and can send that over real quick, no big deal. If they asked for a photo of the enclosure that their tortoise was raised in, I guess I don't have a problem with that, but I don't get that request very often (and keep a few of those photos on my phone also to send real quick).

We recently sold a regular customer three greek tortoises, she was a regular buyer, so I didn't worry about taking the time to send pics ahead of time. Getting payment took a while (10 days, multiple debit card attempts), and then before shipping, she asked for another photo which I didn't really understand, but I did send her another photo as we put them in the box. It seems like the non-customers that ask for photos and get them ahead of time are the ones that you don't hear back from until 2 months later when they ask for updated pics. The more you grant them, it seems the more requests you get with little commitment or interest in buying. I would become a free photo factory, if I let that happen.


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## SPILL (Sep 28, 2018)

KarenSoCal said:


> My gosh...just be safe! Maybe have a neighbor or friend with you when "lookers" come?


I think it's more about that person coming back later to steal something as opposed to a physical altercation. Even late night break-ins at zoos aren't unheard of.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 28, 2018)

SPILL said:


> I think it's more about that person coming back later to steal something as opposed to a physical altercation. Even late night break-ins at zoos aren't unheard of.


That's my fear. But I have a very alert, 70lb Doberman.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 28, 2018)

TylerStewart said:


> Like most, we don't have unknown people come over just because it's our home and private space.


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