# Poor Bones



## drew54 (Oct 15, 2018)

I noticed yesterday morning that the floor off his enclosure, well at his level on substrate, was registering 104 while the ambient temp midway up throughout the enclosure was registering 80-85. He had been very lethargic and hadn't eaten in two days.  I had adjusted the thermostat and the basking bulb as it was registering 113. His poor head and skin had darkened and dry. I soak him twice everyday and today I soaked him for an hour and I will soak him more later. His eyes are bright and not sunken in so hopefully I caught it in time. I adjusted the thermostat again and I'm about to check it again. After his soak I rubbed his head and he apparently liked it a lot. I'm hoping he perks up more and starts eating again.


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## ZEROPILOT (Oct 15, 2018)

Maybe check the actual temperature of his shell.
They like it warmer than some. But those lights can dry out a tortoise and in severe cases, cook one.
Is there a cool area in the enclosure?


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## drew54 (Oct 15, 2018)

His cool side was registering 104 and his shell hotter. I have been trying to keep the ambient temp of the substrate level around 85-90, but not higher than 90. He seems to like it when it's around there. He was having gritty looking urates twice last week. I thought it was because of excess protein and not dehydration. He is in a 3' x 1.5' tub with the Che over the cool side. I'm hoping to have his new enclosure done in the next couple of weeks. That should help with the temp regulation. I noticed this morning he was trying to get behind his hide where it was cooler.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 15, 2018)

You don't really run into problems like this in a closed chamber. The whole enclosure is the same temperature - no hot side, no cool side, no cold at the floor but hot up above, no hot at the floor but cold up above. . . the whole "chamber" fills up with the same temperature


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## drew54 (Oct 15, 2018)

It's a closed chamber set up similar to yours.


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## drew54 (Oct 15, 2018)

This what he has been doing all weekend and today for soaks. His head looks really dry and scaly.






I have all the temps corrected now and I have soaked him for a total of two hours today. His eyes are bright and he responds well when I pick him up. Does his skin look bad?


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## drew54 (Oct 16, 2018)

I'm getting a little worried. He hasn't eaten in a few days. I've soaked him for almost 2.5 hrs today in Pedialyte and carrot mixture under his uvb light. Still sleeping almost all day long. No symptoms of ri or anything. Shell id's hard and patron is pliable. Skin is looking more hydrated. Could this just be "baby" behavior?


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## drew54 (Oct 16, 2018)

Poorly rigged I know. Temp 81 throughout. 85-90 at tort level on warm and cool side. Hot side 97-102. Humidity 82%.


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## drew54 (Oct 16, 2018)

The white is calcium powder btw.


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## drew54 (Oct 18, 2018)

I'm feeling really bad about his situation. It's my fault as I didn't properly check the floor temps which caused his dehydration. I had swapped out the swampy substrate for dry. I dampened the coir and put orchid bark on top to keep the level of mess down. I dampened the bark and set the thermostat and checked the temps regularly, but I messed up. I didn't use my temp gun to check floor temps that night and they got too high at night. 

I've been doing baby food soaks and adding calcium and d3 in the soaks. I've been soaking him anywhere from one to two hours each day for the past two days. Regular two 30 min water soaks everyday before baby food soaks.

He is still weak and his eyes are closed more. He moves a little bit, but still won't eat. I put shell saver on him this morning after his food soak in hopes it will help. 

I have been upping the humidity 80+ and temps are 80-90 warm and cool side basking 95-100.

I bought some endive and dandelion greens and in going to try to get him to eat those per recommendation of the forum. 

When I pick him up and rub his head he opens his eyes and moves his head against my finger. He does this for about two min and then I place him by his food. 

He smells it and either walks away and lays down to sleep or falls asleep by his food. I have fresh greens, wheat grass, and a variety of weeds and grasses for him, but he doesn't eat. 

This is my fault and I feel horrible. I'm trying everything I can to keep him hydrated and get him to eat. I'm also trying really hard to monitor and control his temps. He seems to be themoregulating fine. 

I'm really pulling for this little dude and this is a testament to everything that these care sheets say and knowledge of the members. I'll never forget to check the floor temps again.


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## vladimir (Oct 18, 2018)

How's Bones doing today? Was everything going okay with him prior to the temperature mixup?


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## drew54 (Oct 18, 2018)

vladimir said:


> How's Bones doing today? Was everything going okay with him prior to the temperature mixup?


Yes, he was doing well before. He is the same. I've been doing food soaks with calcium and d3 for the past two days. His eyes remain closed a lot longer, but opens them when I rub his head. His eyes are still clear and bright. His shell is hard and plastron still pliable. I have been upping the humidity 80+ keeping temps around 80-90 warm and cool. Basking is 95-100. 

I applied shell saver to him to help keep it from drying out. I'm still trying to get him to eat, but no luck there. He moves a little from time to time. When he does move you can see that he is very weak. 

I don't have the money to take him to the vet as I spent most of my check on getting my car fixed. I'm doing everything I know to do to keep him hydrated and temps appropriate. Also, greatly encouraging him to eat. I'm mixing food, not mixing food together, giving him his favorite things,, and he still doesn't eat. 

I'm hoping he will come too soon. I don't know what else to do. I can't take him out because it's been way too cold. He does seem to perk up when I interact with him.


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## wellington (Oct 18, 2018)

What was the floor temp? Be careful giving too much calcium, too much is as bad as too little. Put piedialyte in his soak water with the carrot.


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## drew54 (Oct 18, 2018)

wellington said:


> What was the floor temp? Be careful giving too much calcium, too much is as bad as too little. Put piedialyte in his soak water with the carrot.


It was 104f . I've only put a pinch of it in his soaking water once this week. I thought maybe if I put it in there maybe he will get some of it. I will do another Pedialyte soak tonight. 

I've read a lot about not using Pedialyte because of the amount of sugar it has which is not good for a weak digestive system. If that's the case here. What are your thoughts on that? 

Are there any other issues tat could cause him to not eat and become lethargic?


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## wellington (Oct 18, 2018)

104 is not too overly high. Do you know how he was raised before you got him? Hot and humid or hot and dry? 
As for the piedialyte I have never seen or read any problems with it. Many torts have recovered when it was used. Have no idea if it had anything to do with recovery or not as it's almost impossibly too know what worked and what didn't. I have been recommending it since 2012 when I first read about someone using it with good results.


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## drew54 (Oct 18, 2018)

wellington said:


> 104 is not too overly high. Do you know how he was raised before you got him? Hot and humid or hot and dry?
> As for the piedialyte I have never seen or read any problems with it. Many torts have recovered when it was used. Have no idea if it had anything to do with recovery or not as it's almost impossibly too know what worked and what didn't. I have been recommending it since 2012 when I first read about someone using it with good results.


I got him from Tyler at tortoise supply. I just got home and did a temp, humidity, and a physical exam. Temps and humidity are good. His plastron has sunken in around the middle and it's a little soft. I will do a Pedialyte and food soak again. I'm very worried now.


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## drew54 (Oct 18, 2018)

Here is what their website says. His behavior resembles hatchling failure syndrome. 

*Our Current Care: *During cooler weather or indoors, these tortoises are kept indoors on a cypress and/or coco coir substrate with a humid hidebox that they can get into at night. We raise them in cheap, simple plastic tubs that can be purchased at WalMart or Target, generally 3 to 4 square feet in size for babies. Temperatures in the room fluctuate between 75 at night up to 85 during the day, but we keep the hidebox heated to around 80-85 at night with a heat pad beind it, or a red bulb placed overhead.

Diet consists of spring mix greens with many other leafy greens offered in rotation to that (mulberry, endive, grape leaves, hibiscus leaves, diced cactus pad and we use globe mallow leaves pretty regularly). We like to also add moistened Mazuri LS tortoise diet as well as ZooMed's Gourmet Tortoise Food a few times a week, usually mixed and mashed into the leafy greens. The addition of the commercial diets take care of most or all of the supplementation needs, or you can sprinkle the food lightly with a calcium supplement 2 or 3 times a week and a multivitamin supplement 1-2 times a week. We also throw a pinch of our herbal hay on top of whatever they are eating almost daily, which adds variety and flavor and scent to everything.

The tortoises are removed from their enclosure and soaked in a separate 1/4" deep pan of warm water daily or almost daily for 30 minutes each time. We don't generally use water dishes in the enclosures because of the risk of drowning (yes, we have lost babies to drowning when they flipped over in 1/4" of water).

Being a desert species, they should have intense lighting, and they need lights on during the day and off at night to maintain a normal day/night cycle. We use full spectrum UVB lights, which we suggest for the growth of pretty, healthy tortoises, and use a ZooMed Powersun bulb in a small part of the enclosure to give them a "hot spot" around 95-100 degrees that they can get into if they want to warm up.

We don't use the "closed chamber" method (keeping airflow very restricted to increase humidity to the point that clouds form in the enclosure). It is very risky if/when temperatures get below about 80, and mold, shell rot, and respiratory problems become a lot more common in those conditions. We keep them open top in the warm area, and enclosed, warm and humid within the hide (like they would be in the wild). They are free to choose the conditions, temperatures, and humidity levels they want within that setup.


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## drew54 (Oct 18, 2018)

I emailed Tyler from tortoise supply and he wasn't too happy. He said my problem is the enclosed chamber and that they are death traps which is why he doesn't use them. I know I caused his dehydration because I didn't check floor temp that one night.

What I'm really confused about his that I've followed everyone's advice and care sheets and he was doing well and then suddenly after the high temp he immediately declined. 

He said he would make an exception and replace with a new tort if I pay shipping, but there would be no guarantee if I kept it in a closed chamber. 

I'm heartbroken and I don't know what to do.


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## wellington (Oct 18, 2018)

Tyler isn't a bad place. It could just very well be one that won't thrive. Nothing anyone did. Keep up the soaks and keep him warm. Hopefully he will pull thru. Fingers crossed. And I don't think it had anything too do with the little higher floor temp.


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## wellington (Oct 18, 2018)

I'm very surprised he would say that. He's a member of this forum and should know the great results the closed chamber has done not only for the health of tortoises but for growing them smooth like they should be. 
I guess my opinion on your other thread about where you purchased has changed. 
You need to do what you need to do. If it were me I wouldn't be listening to him!


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## wellington (Oct 18, 2018)

drew54 said:


> I emailed Tyler from tortoise supply and he wasn't too happy. He said my problem is the enclosed chamber and that they are death traps which is why he doesn't use them. I know I caused his dehydration because I didn't check floor temp that one night.
> 
> What I'm really confused about his that I've followed everyone's advice and care sheets and he was doing well and then suddenly after the high temp he immediately declined.
> 
> ...


@Tom


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## G-stars (Oct 18, 2018)

Can you please explain what you mean by “I caused his dehydration because I didn’t check floor temp”? Dehydration doesn’t happen overnight. 

There are hundreds if not thousands of tortoises on this forum to back up that enclosed chambers are safe and are not death traps.


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## drew54 (Oct 18, 2018)

I figured it as my fault that he became dehydrated because floor temp (his level) was up to 104 as well in his humid hide where I put him at lights it every night. It was high all night long but the ambient temp above tort level was 85-88. I'm currently trying to increase the humidity above 85 to help. He is currently soaking in a carrot Pedialyte mixture. 

I believe he was thriving when it was 90+ humidity and when the coir was swampy.


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## wellington (Oct 18, 2018)

Btw, at @Tom has raised many sulcata and leopard babies in closed chambers with no shell rot, mold comes from the food if you don't clean it or improper substrate and respiratory problems come when temps are too low, below 80 which is not recommended in the caresheet.


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## Minority2 (Oct 18, 2018)

An enclosed chamber is suppose to keep temperature levels consistent within a certain range. The entire closed chamber enclosure, other than the basking spot, will be the same at the same temperature and humidity level. That is how it's supposed to be.

That can only happen if the owner understands how to rig and regulate their enclosures. A themostat can only regulate the ceramic heat emitter or reptile heat panel, it will not be able to regulate the heat of the basking bulb.

I don't think one day of slightly hotter temperatures would completely change a tortoise's health. How high was the temperature? 



drew54 said:


> I figured it as my fault that he became dehydrated because floor temp (his level) was up to 104 as well in his humid hide where I put him at lights it every night. It was high all night long but the ambient temp above tort level was 85-88. I'm currently trying to increase the humidity above 85 to help. He is currently soaking in a carrot Pedialyte mixture.
> 
> I believe he was thriving when it was 90+ humidity and when the coir was swampy.



104F is not hot. 95-105F is a normal range for basking bulbs. I don't see anything wrong with a 104F basking temperature.


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## Minority2 (Oct 18, 2018)

drew54 said:


> I emailed Tyler from tortoise supply and he wasn't too happy. He said my problem is the enclosed chamber and that they are death traps which is why he doesn't use them. I know I caused his dehydration because I didn't check floor temp that one night.
> 
> What I'm really confused about his that I've followed everyone's advice and care sheets and he was doing well and then suddenly after the high temp he immediately declined.
> 
> ...



What is @TylerStewart's reasons for claiming this?


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## G-stars (Oct 18, 2018)

I see, I just read your other post. Maybe a mod can combine them. It will be easier to track. You mentioned that his plastron was sunken in? 

Personally I don’t believe that a temp of 104F for a day would cause that. I’ve kept my tortoises at similar temperatures and they still will bask. I would rule that out as a cause of dehydration and especially of the sunken plastron. I don’t know how the breeder starts of their hatchlings.


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## drew54 (Oct 18, 2018)

wellington said:


> @Tom


I'm attaching screen shots of the email not to start anything, but because I just don't know what to do except what I've been doing.


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## wellington (Oct 18, 2018)

drew54 said:


> I'm attaching screen shots of the email not to start anything, but because I just don't know what to do except what I've been doing.


When done right, which is not below 80 like is said on this forum and caresheets there isn't a problem. When it's done wrong temps go below 80.


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## g4mobile (Oct 18, 2018)

Yvonne G said:


> You don't really run into problems like this in a closed chamber. The whole enclosure is the same temperature - no hot side, no cool side, no cold at the floor but hot up above, no hot at the floor but cold up above. . . the whole "chamber" fills up with the same temperature



I thought the exact thing. My enclosed chamber is a consistent 86-90 degrees with 80-90% humidity. Under the basking light, it's 95 degrees, but this doesn't change the overall ambient temperature. My baby tortoise is thriving in this set-up. I am soaking daily 10-30 minutes. 

How are you checking the temperature where he is basking? It may be hotter than the 100 deg. you mentioned off the top of his shell. I am using a digital infrared temp. gun and it's accurate.

Do you have a UVB bulb?


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## G-stars (Oct 18, 2018)

It’s simple. Cold and humid is bad. Warm and humid is good. I raise my hatchlings at 75f+ and 60-80% humidity. Once they are old enough to be outside full time they are exposed to temps as low as 60F and humidity levels of no higher than 50%. They are all healthy.


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## G-stars (Oct 18, 2018)

Also how long have you had this tortoise? Has this tortoise been growing/ gaining weight?


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## Minority2 (Oct 18, 2018)

drew54 said:


> I'm attaching screen shots of the email not to start anything, but because I just don't know what to do except what I've been doing.



1. Am I reading this correctly? You have a heated humid hide box inside of your enclosure? 

2. Does this mean your hide box is not at the same temperature level as your ambient temperatures but are the same level as your basking bulb? Does that mean you have a basking bulb placed directly below your hide box?


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## drew54 (Oct 18, 2018)

I have a reptisun 10 t8 uvb tube. The reason the temp changed on the hide side was because I swapped the water logged coir out for dampened coir and put damp orchid bark over it. The thermostat probe was in the coir under the bark, so the Che heated the whole chamber up to 104 after lights when out. The next morning I gave him a soak as normal and I used my temp gun to check temps and that's when I noticed the whole enclosure was 104. So, I realized that the probe was covered and not on top of the bark and reading cooler temps tat what it actually was. I fixed all of it immediately and I got the temps where they needed to be. When I got home from work my routine ous do a temp and humidity check, a physical check of the tort, and change water, put fresh grass, greens, etc, make any temp and humidity adjustments as needed while he soaks for 30+ min under the uvb light. Afterwards he eats and runs around. When I got home he didn't eat and he was lethargic.


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## drew54 (Oct 18, 2018)

No no it's not heated. It stays around 85. it's to the left of the Che not directly under it. It's usually maybe a degree or two cooler than the ambient temp.


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## drew54 (Oct 18, 2018)

My temps have never dropped below 80 ambient art at tort level and in hide. And since I covered it the humidity hadn't dropped below 80 either. So, I'm really lost.


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## drew54 (Oct 18, 2018)

He is still at 57g. He lost 1g and then I weighed him after his first 30 min of soaking and he is back 57g. But that's what he was when I weighed him for the first time last Thursday.


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## g4mobile (Oct 18, 2018)

drew54 said:


> I have a reptisun 10 t8 uvb tube. The reason the temp changed on the hide side was because I swapped the water logged coir out for dampened coir and put damp orchid bark over it. The thermostat probe was in the coir under the bark, so the Che heated the whole chamber up to 104 after lights when out. The next morning I gave him a soak as normal and I used my temp gun to check temps and that's when I noticed the whole enclosure was 104. So, I realized that the probe was covered and not on top of the bark and reading cooler temps tat what it actually was. I fixed all of it immediately and I got the temps where they needed to be. When I got home from work my routine ous do a temp and humidity check, a physical check of the tort, and change water, put fresh grass, greens, etc, make any temp and humidity adjustments as needed while he soaks for 30+ min under the uvb light. Afterwards he eats and runs around. When I got home he didn't eat and he was lethargic.



I am looking at your set up and feel the 10.0 UVB bulb may be too much. I am using a 5.0 UVB, as I don't feel baby torts need to be blasted by heavy UVB. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong. How many inches is it from your UVB bulb to the tortoise?


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## drew54 (Oct 18, 2018)

wellington said:


> Btw, at @Tom has raised many sulcata and leopard babies in closed chambers with no shell rot, mold comes from the food if you don't clean it or improper substrate and respiratory problems come when temps are too low, below 80 which is not recommended in the caresheet.



Tats why I've followed his care sheet to the best of my ability. I was wondering if I had gotten a runt. He seems to be the same size as when I got him on 9/2/18. I'll keep up the soaks and everything. No, I don't think it's a bad place or he is a bad breeder. I was just thrown off with his response, however, I see passion and care in his response.


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## drew54 (Oct 18, 2018)

g4mobile said:


> I am looking at your set up and feel the 10.0 UVB bulb may be too much. I am using a 5.0 UVB, as I don't feel baby torts need to be blasted by heavy UVB. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong. How many inches is it from your UVB bulb to the tortoise?


He is 11 inches away from the lamp. He has been doing well with it from what I have seen. I could be wrong.


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## Minority2 (Oct 18, 2018)

drew54 said:


> My temps have never dropped below 80 ambient art at tort level and in hide. And since I covered it the humidity hadn't dropped below 80 either. So, I'm really lost.



If your temperature reader is accurate than there is nothing wrong with the level of care you provided. A well started hatchling incubated and raised in warm and humid environments will generally thrive under those conditions. 

I'm hoping to hear from @TylerStewart so we can get a more in-depth explanation on his incubation and hatchling raising conditions so we can hopefully get better insight and possibly come up with a remedy to fix these issues with all breeders.


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## g4mobile (Oct 18, 2018)

drew54 said:


> He is 11 inches away from the lamp. He has been doing well with it from what I have seen. I could be wrong.



I would use a 5.0 UVB bulb at 11". That's my opinion and take it for what it's worth.


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## drew54 (Oct 18, 2018)

I will get a 5 as soon as i can.


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## drew54 (Oct 18, 2018)

I'm using a new temp gun with a new waterproof thermometer and hygrometer and they both are reading the same.


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## G-stars (Oct 18, 2018)

drew54 said:


> He is still at 57g. He lost 1g and then I weighed him after his first 30 min of soaking and he is back 57g. But that's what he was when I weighed him for the first time last Thursday.



How long have you had this tortoise?


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## drew54 (Oct 18, 2018)

G-stars said:


> How long have you had this tortoise?


Since 9/2/18.


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## wellington (Oct 18, 2018)

I think if this one doesn't pull thru, you should take Tyler up on his offer. He isn't going to guarantee the second one anyway, except live arrival, which is what I would guess anyone would do for a replacement tort. If you can get some mazuri torts food if you don't already use it, and try to get him to eat it, it might help. It seems to put size on, specially for those torts that don't seem to grow. Soak it in some water until it's very soft. One to two nuggets a day I would give until he starts doing better or putting some size on. Then you could cut back too a couple times a week. If you don't have any, let me know.


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## wellington (Oct 18, 2018)

Minority2 said:


> If your temperature reader is accurate than there is nothing wrong with the level of care you provided. A well started hatchling incubated and raised in warm and humid environments will generally thrive under those conditions.
> 
> I'm hoping to hear from @TylerStewart so we can get a more in-depth explanation on his incubation and hatchling raising conditions so we can hopefully get better insight and possibly come up with a remedy to fix these issues with all breeders.


I think it's just a matter of some just don't thrive. Not sure if it has anything to do with anyone's care. Tyler doesn't use the closed chamber but does at least provide humidity so it's not the hot and dry which I think would be a problem.


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## drew54 (Oct 18, 2018)

How do I get him to eat it? I've tried cutting his greens up small and have been trying to have feed him, but no luck.


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## wellington (Oct 18, 2018)

g4mobile said:


> I am looking at your set up and feel the 10.0 UVB bulb may be too much. I am using a 5.0 UVB, as I don't feel baby torts need to be blasted by heavy UVB. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong. How many inches is it from your UVB bulb to the tortoise?


The 10.0 is fine. A lot of us use the mvb which is even more uvb and more intense and none is as good or intense as the sun. Only time any could be too much would be if they are placed too close. Most bulbs have a recommended distance on the package. I don't think any of them list less then 12 inches, but a one inch difference I don't think would be a big deal. I wouldn't go closer though.


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## wellington (Oct 18, 2018)

drew54 said:


> How do I get him to eat it? I've tried cutting his greens up small and have been trying to have feed him, but no luck.


Do you have any?


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## Tom (Oct 18, 2018)

drew54 said:


> I emailed Tyler from tortoise supply and he wasn't too happy. He said my problem is the enclosed chamber and that they are death traps which is why he doesn't use them. I know I caused his dehydration because I didn't check floor temp that one night.
> 
> What I'm really confused about his that I've followed everyone's advice and care sheets and he was doing well and then suddenly after the high temp he immediately declined.
> 
> ...


This one is a dilemma for me and a tough subject to tackle. I suppose this conversation was inevitable...

Tyler and his lovely wife Sarah are terrific human beings and I love them both. They are friends. Tyler is an intelligent and experienced man. We've briefly talked about this subject a few times, but he has closed his mind to it, and hasn't been willing to reconsider it in our conversations. He can clearly see, just like everyone else here, that 1000's of people all over the world are having unanimous success using the closed chamber methods, so I don't know why he'd make a statement like that. He clearly did something wrong whenever he attempted it, and now he has closed his mind to it. Its not cool temps. I generally keep ambient temps at 80 or above, but I've had temps drop down to 63 during a power outage and repeatedly down to the low 70s when cold winter spells caught me off guard, and no respirtory infection, no sickness, no death, and no problems of any kind. So what in the heck did he do when he attempted to try a closed chamber? I certainly can't figure it out, but even he knows they aren't death chambers because he has seen mine personally on at least two occasions and anyone can click open hundreds of threads here and see the results for themselves. Tyler is the only person in the world that has actually tried it that I've come across saying this about closed chambers, and there are literally 1000's of other people saying the exact opposite. From China to Germany to South Africa and all over the USA. Nearly every experienced keeper here on TFO says the opposite of what Tyler says about closed chambers. I can't think of any exceptions.

I don't want to insult anyone or lose a friend over it, but he's wrong. Obviously wrong. Something went wrong with his attempt at a closed chamber and I don't know what because no one else anywhere in the world has ever had that problem. Whatever it was convinced him that closed chambers don't work. But they clearly do work for everyone else everywhere else. These tropical tortoise species (Stars, leopards, sulcatas, pancakes...) hatch into monsoon conditions in the wild. Using a closed chamber helps to simulate that and it is the most "natural" way it can be done. Dry, open topped enclosures simulate poor, barely survivable conditions for baby tortoises of tropical species, and that is why they grow at 1/3 the speed and pyramid.

I hope he'll join the conversation and explain his point of view. All I know is what has already been stated here. He tried it, and it didn't work for him. I don't know why it failed or what went wrong, but I'd love to figure out why his experience with closed chambers was so different than everyone else's.


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## Minority2 (Oct 19, 2018)

Success rates for tortoises started in very humid conditions and raised in very humid enclosure to live past the first year are generally higher than dry started ones; this has been confirmed by many members in this forum, including myself, a previous dry housing owner of many moons ago.

My question is are we as members possibly hurting dry started tortoises by suggesting that they switch immediately to very humid enclosures at such a young age where they're not strong enough to withstand large changes?

Could our advice to do so possibly be too taxing for their lungs, the very lungs of which were started in dry conditions? Wouldn't the change irritate and be the cause of them being more susceptible to have illnesses?

Success percentages of tortoises living past the first year:
1. What are the success percentages of starting dry and raising dry? (open enclosure under 40% humidity)
2. What are the success percentages of starting dry and raising humid? (closed chamber above 80% humidity)
3. What are the success percentages of starting humid and raising dry? (open enclosure under 40% humidity)
4. What are the success percentages of starting humid and raising humid? (closed chamber above 80% humidity)

I'm hoping several long time breeders can help answer these questions.


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## drew54 (Oct 19, 2018)

drew54 said:


> Since 9/2/18.


Correction 10/2 is when I received him.


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## drew54 (Oct 19, 2018)

With his eyes being closed most of the time, but they aren't sunken in or anything. Very bright, could I be over exposing him to uvb?


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## Tom (Oct 19, 2018)

g4mobile said:


> I am looking at your set up and feel the 10.0 UVB bulb may be too much. I am using a 5.0 UVB, as I don't feel baby torts need to be blasted by heavy UVB. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong. How many inches is it from your UVB bulb to the tortoise?


10.0 T8 tubes put out very low levels of UV. I was getting a UVI reading of 1.1 from mine at a distance of about 10 inches. That is very low. In comparison, my Arcadia 12% HO bulbs Gave me a UVI of 6-7 at 22". This is very high and simulates mid day summer sun. The 5.0 bulbs produce almost no UV and are a waste of money in my opinion if UV is your goal. They make nice light for the enclosure though.


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## Tom (Oct 19, 2018)

Minority2 said:


> Success percentages of tortoises living past the first year:
> 1. What are the success percentages of starting dry and raising dry? (open enclosure under 40% humidity)
> 2. What are the success percentages of starting dry and raising humid? (closed chamber above 80% humidity)
> 3. What are the success percentages of starting humid and raising dry? (open enclosure under 40% humidity)
> 4. What are the success percentages of starting humid and raising humid? (closed chamber above 80% humidity)



I don't know that anyone can answer these. In every case I can think of, there are multiple variables, and the vast majority of cases are uncountable for each of your scenarios. Further, what do you consider success for the purposes of this discussion? @Markw84, @DeanS , me, and many others did the dry/dry routine for many years. None of mine ever died, but I certainly wouldn't call those results "success". I've done the dry/humid routine several times and had zero problems, except the ones that were hatched and started on perlite. Some of them had their intestinal tracts lined with perlite and died. Others in that group seem to have not ingested perlite, or they passed it, and they are fine to this day, six years later. I know of no one starting humid and then going dry. Maybe Tyler himself could answer that one. I think he has done that. As for humid/humid, I have had 100% success with all that I have hatched from all species and multiple generations now. Zero problems of any kind. Its simple, easy, works fantastically, and anyone can duplicate it anywhere in the world.


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## g4mobile (Oct 19, 2018)

Tom said:


> 10.0 T8 tubes put out very low levels of UV. I was getting a UVI reading of 1.1 from mine at a distance of about 10 inches. That is very low. In comparison, my Arcadia 12% HO bulbs Gove me a UVI of 6-7 at 22". This is very high and simulates mid day summer sun. The 5.0 bulbs produce almost no UV and are a waste of money in my opinion if UV is your goal. They make nice light for the enclosure though.


I appreciate the feedback Tom and need to check mine with a UVB meter. My baby is spending a few hours outside in natural sunlight each week, so I really don't need anything.

I'm using a T5 HO ReptiSun 5.0 UVB fluorescent.


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## TylerStewart (Oct 19, 2018)

I've only got a few minutes to post, but wanted to clarify a lot of things. I have never called closed chambers "death chambers" in person or in writing. I have never said closed chambers don't work. I have repeatedly said they are risky, and they absolutely are. Probably twice or three times a month I get an email from a customer that tells me they set their tortoise up in a closed chamber and after a few weeks was crashing. I ask for their temperatures, and they almost always say "room temperature on the cool end, up to 95 (or whatever) on the warm end." They don't understand enough what 70 degrees (give or take) will do to a sulcata, leopard, star or similar tortoise when the humidity is through the roof. You guys don't see this from my perspective shipping off a lot of tortoises to people that halfway read how to set up a closed chamber and then want me to help them when there's a problem. I'm so so so frustrated having people kill my babies because they didn't understand the fine print when setting up a closed chamber. In an open top enclosure, you can't overheat a tortoise (because the tortoise has the ability to get out of the heat).

This customer when he emailed me said exactly this (cut from his email):
_"I noticed last Saturday his temp on the cool side and in humid hide was 104f. I adjusted the temps that morning and corrected everything. He wasn't active and he stopped eating."_

So the way I read that is that the cool end is 104. That's what he said. If that was a typo, I didn't know that and don't know that now until something different was said in this thread. When someone tells me that the cool end of their enclosure was 104, and it's a closed chamber, that's one hell of a problem, and I don't think anyone would disagree with that. We have essentially zero problems and zero losses the way we raise babies here. We raise them the way that Richard Fife raised his, emphasizing the humid hide, and keeping moisture in the soil around it. The cold sensitive species have a mild heat source under or over that hide at night (it actually runs 24/7 keeping the hide in the 85 degree range). Sicknesses don't just show up out of nowhere. I have essentially zero "hatching failure syndrome" or whatever the term that was coined here is. If a tortoise can get out of the egg, it generally does fine after that. All the sulcatas we have here are several months old, we aren't still hatching sulcata babies in early October, most of them are from July. We raise babies every year in these conditions to become future breeders. We don't have a pyramided tortoise in our collection. I don't understand the urgency to pile every baby tortoise into an enclosed chamber which might mimic the conditions in the monsoon season in Africa for a month or two, but babies don't grow much in the first month or two in the wild, and then they are back to non-monsoon conditions for the next 10 months.


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## TylerStewart (Oct 19, 2018)

I just saw in the other thread "poor Bones" this quote: 



drew54 said:


> I noticed yesterday morning that the floor off his enclosure, well at his level on substrate, was registering 104 while the ambient temp midway up throughout the enclosure was registering 80-85. He had been very lethargic and hadn't eaten in two days.  I had adjusted the thermostat and the basking bulb as it was registering 113. His poor head and skin had darkened and dry. I soak him twice everyday and today I soaked him for an hour and I will soak him more later. His eyes are bright and not sunken in so hopefully I caught it in time. I adjusted the thermostat again and I'm about to check it again. After his soak I rubbed his head and he apparently liked it a lot. I'm hoping he perks up more and starts eating again.



So there was a 113 degree temperature within the closed chamber with little ability to escape the closed chamber. Knowing it was cooked, I am still offering a replacement tortoise at no cost other than shipping. Why the breeder is questioned or blamed when this stuff happens is beyond me. 



Tom said:


> I don't know that anyone can answer these. In every case I can think of, there are multiple variables, and the vast majority of cases are uncountable for each of your scenarios. Further, what do you consider success for the purposes of this discussion? @Markw84, @DeanS , me, and many others did the dry/dry routine for many years. None of mine ever died, but I certainly wouldn't call those results "success". I've done the dry/humid routine several times and had zero problems, except the ones that were hatched and started on perlite. Some of them had their intestinal tracts lined with perlite and died. Others in that group seem to have not ingested perlite, or they passed it, and they are fine to this day, six years later. I know of no one starting humid and then going dry. Maybe Tyler himself could answer that one. I think he has done that. As for humid/humid, I have had 100% success with all that I have hatched from all species and multiple generations now. Zero problems of any kind. Its simple, easy, works fantastically, and anyone can duplicate it anywhere in the world.



I can't answer this one because I've never raised a tortoise in a dry condition. Ours are anything but dry; we just don't force ultra high humidity on them. There's no way to measure a long term success rate when 95% of them are shipped off within 6 months (from me or anyone else). In the ones I've kept, we have perfect results. 

When I have set up humid chambers, it was too much babysitting for me, too much of a pain to have to guarantee the temps didn't creep down, so I just didn't bother. I didn't see the benefits of doing that over what I was doing anyways.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 19, 2018)

My 2 cents, not directed to any one person: If you are having a temperature gradient in a closed chamber (hot side/cool side) then something's not right with the enclosure. A closed chamber should measure the same temperature all over the whole enclosure. I keep mine between 80 and 85F. It drops slightly at night when the fluorescent light goes off, but never below 78F.


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## DeanS (Oct 19, 2018)

Tom said:


> I don't know that anyone can answer these. In every case I can think of, there are multiple variables, and the vast majority of cases are uncountable for each of your scenarios. Further, what do you consider success for the purposes of this discussion? @Markw84, @DeanS , me, and many others did the dry/dry routine for many years. None of mine ever died, but I certainly wouldn't call those results "success". I've done the dry/humid routine several times and had zero problems, except the ones that were hatched and started on perlite. Some of them had their intestinal tracts lined with perlite and died. Others in that group seem to have not ingested perlite, or they passed it, and they are fine to this day, six years later. I know of no one starting humid and then going dry. Maybe Tyler himself could answer that one. I think he has done that. As for humid/humid, I have had 100% success with all that I have hatched from all species and multiple generations now. Zero problems of any kind. Its simple, easy, works fantastically, and anyone can duplicate it anywhere in the world.


Actually, I NEVER did the dry routine! My first sulcatas went right into the kiddie pool...then into a rubbermaid tub...with literally two holes drilled into either end! I think you confused me with the idiots I got them from who9 did red lights and rabbit pellets! But, with the wealth of knowledge stored in that magnificent brain of yours...I can let it slide...a little!


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## drew54 (Oct 19, 2018)

It's maintaining correct ambient temps all throughout. It only fluctuated when I swapped the water logged substrate out for dryer coir and orchid bark all damp. Yes, it was my fault that the probe was not on top of the substrate and the thermostat wasn't registering temp on tort level and I didn't check it with my temp gun. I immediately corrected everything in the morning when I noticed it and soaked him for about two hours. My temps have never fallen below 80. 

He was extremely active and ate a lot in high humidity and hot temps. The substrate was a bit swampy which he seemed to not be bothered by it. All, of this started after I changed the substrate and the temp at night got too high. 

I've taken the blame on this as I believe that it was my fault. Tyler, I understand your frustrations and I know how passionate and that you care deeply for your animals. I got that through the email. I feel extremely bad and I've done nothing but try to remedy the situation. 

I cam to you and this forum for help and not a replacement. I really wasn't to save this little guy and inn reading and talking to people. I just bought a be basking bulb that produces uva light to see if that helps. 

I've spent countless hours trying to remedy the situation which is why I came to you for help and this forum. I'm a first time owner and I didn't get a tort on a whim. Because I'm willbtw I make mistake. I'm sorry. I didn't the best part of a year reading up on all the breeds and their care. I'm still reffing and talking to everyone I know to talk to learn more and fix this. If I can't save him then maybe I will take you up on that offer and get another one and do things differently. But I know right now I'm filled with so much guilt and sadness that I don't know if I could get another one of he doesn't make it.

I chose the closed chamber approach because I have read nothing but contradictory things everywhere. I have seen them dry and I've seen them wet. I have read hundreds and hundreds of threads, websites, exotic reptile sites, care sheets, testimony, etc just in the last few months. Over the course of the year I can't even begin to tell any of you how much research, websites, etc. I've read and the number of people I've talked to. 

All of this led me to making my decision on a closed chamber. I don't mind having to check temps every 30 min or hour or whatever. It provides me and the baby with time to interact and allows me to study his behavior. So, again I came to all of you for help because at this point I'M wracking my brain trying to think of ways to fix the issue and most importantly try to diagnose the situation. I know there are conflicting ideas and I know that how the hatchlings are cared for by the breeder is important to its future as well as the owners husbandry. 

I don't blame anyone but myself. I'm really trying hard here to rectify the issues at hand but it's hard to do so with two sides with different thoughts. I'm getting really confused and I'm getting really discourage. I really need everyone's help right now.


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## vladimir (Oct 19, 2018)

drew54 said:


> I don't blame anyone but myself. I'm really trying hard here to rectify the issues at hand but it's hard to do so with two sides with different thoughts. I'm getting really confused and I'm getting really discourage. I really need everyone's help right now.



just my opinion, but I think the focus of this thread should be more about what we can do for little Bones now, and less about where things went wrong and how we got here. Drew acknowledged that the temperature getting too high was his responsibility. I don't know how much debating the open vs closed chambers idea in this thread is going to help Bones with recovering.

@drew54 I'm rooting for you and Bones - please don't give up on the little one. Try not to be discouraged and just do everything you are capable of - nobody can ask for more than that.


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## drew54 (Oct 19, 2018)

vladimir said:


> just my opinion, but I think the focus of this thread should be more about what we can do for little Bones now, and less about where things went wrong and how we got here. Drew acknowledged that the temperature getting too high was his responsibility. I don't know how much debating the open vs closed chambers idea in this thread is going to help Bones with recovering.
> 
> @drew54 I'm rooting for you and Bones - please don't give up on the little one. Try not to be discouraged and just do everything you are capable of - nobody can ask for more than that.


Thank you and I completely agree. I'm not giving up. I'm still researching and the vet will be in tomorrow, so I'm going to give him a call. I really do appreciate everyone and their help.


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## drew54 (Oct 19, 2018)

So, I have found a table of symptoms. While looking through it a few things stick out. 

The eyes bright and closed - over exposure to uvb

Soft spot on the plastron (no longer sunken in and a bit springy again) - mbd 

Lethargy- seasonal slow down, stress, etc

Not eating- temps, stress, etc.

Haven't really noticed any other symptoms. Not sure how accurate this table is either.


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## drew54 (Oct 19, 2018)

What about constipation? I don't really figure that to be an issue with how much he gets soaked, but could be.


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## wellington (Oct 19, 2018)

You are going to never get it figuted out and right if you keep reading all kinds of info that's out on the internet and in books.
Forget it all and for this tort stick with the closed chamber as you already started with it. It's really quite easy if you do it without all the outside wrong or outdated info going thru your head. 
Your uvb is not too much. Stick with the one you were using, the 10.0. Keep humidity at 80% or even higher will not hurt at all. Temps day and night need to be no lower then 80 with a basking of 95-100 this should only be under the basking spot, not any place else. Put the heating/Che on a thermostat and set it too 82-83. That will account for the few degrees accuracy error. Put lights on a timer. Get the substrate damp and keep it damp. Once the enclosure has run all day and all night with heat and humidity staying within the ranges it should be, then that's it. You don't need to check temps but once a day and not even that often if you don't feel the need. 
For your tort, keep up the soaks. If you are doing them twice a day use the piedialyte in only one daily soak, carrots in either both or one. Be sure too keep him/water warm, temp of basking area is good. If you have mazuri try feeding him some and I would even try soaking it in his soak water and then mush it up completely. If you don't have mazuri, pm me your address and I will send you some too try. 
Stick to only the closed chamber and the caresheet on this forum not any other, because you already started out this way.
If for he doesn't make it and you want to follow Tyler's way then do it then. Or if this guy makes a full recovery and you want to switch over too Tyler's way, that's the time too do it. Not now.


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## wellington (Oct 19, 2018)

Also, give yourself a break. You didn't make this guy sick on purpose. I don't think you made him sick at all in my opinion. The peaked temp wasn't all that high and not all that long. Btw, usually if they are too hot and can't walk out of the heat they will try too dig down into the cooler substrate. A good reason to always have a good thick substrate. No less then 2 inches and more is better.


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## Minority2 (Oct 19, 2018)

Tom said:


> I don't know that anyone can answer these. In every case I can think of, there are multiple variables, and the vast majority of cases are uncountable for each of your scenarios. Further, what do you consider success for the purposes of this discussion? @Markw84, @DeanS , me, and many others did the dry/dry routine for many years. None of mine ever died, but I certainly wouldn't call those results "success". I've done the dry/humid routine several times and had zero problems, except the ones that were hatched and started on perlite. Some of them had their intestinal tracts lined with perlite and died. Others in that group seem to have not ingested perlite, or they passed it, and they are fine to this day, six years later. I know of no one starting humid and then going dry. Maybe Tyler himself could answer that one. I think he has done that. As for humid/humid, I have had 100% success with all that I have hatched from all species and multiple generations now. Zero problems of any kind. Its simple, easy, works fantastically, and anyone can duplicate it anywhere in the world.


 
One of the topics being used in this thread is "failure hatchling syndrome". I believe this concept may not be entirely sound for this particular situation. I am also not saying that @drew54 is in any part responsible because none of us is can really make that claim without being physically there and seeing what @drew54 is experiencing thorough this entire situation.

My wording was not very on point I agree. My believe is that there may be a possibility in that the period of introducing a medium to low humidity started tortoise into a very high humid close chamber enclosure may also be one of contributing factors to why a young tortoise may not grow, thrive, and adapt.

It is hard to obtain these types of data from breeders and owners because the level of care and other external variables are uncontrollable as you say. My example question were not specific nor were they directed at any particular periods of study.

The questions should have been written to focus on a young tortoise's lungs, their initial care conditions vs the care conditions given by the customer/new owner, and the impact such changes can cause to the tortoise. But even that description requires further formatting before one can even attempt to come up with a proper outline proposal for a field or research study.



TylerStewart said:


> I just saw in the other thread "poor Bones" this quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



@TylerStewart If you have the time, can you explain what you mean by anything but dry? I'm curious as to how you're able to raise the humidity levels of your indoor and outdoor enclosures in Las Vegas where the humidity level do not often reach above 40-45%.

@drew54 stick with the current closed chamber and follow Tom's care sheet guidelines. Swapping to different conditions back and forth will do no good.


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## TylerStewart (Oct 19, 2018)

Minority2 said:


> If you have the time, can you explain what you mean by anything but dry? I'm curious as to how you're able to raise the humidity levels of your indoor and outdoor enclosures in Las Vegas where the humidity level do not often reach above 40-45%.



Keeping moisture in the substrate will keep humidity in the moderate range at tortoise-level. Keeping the substrate moist and then putting a ceramic or plastic cave with a small opening over it will keep the humidity high inside that hide where tortoises spend a lot of time. The air 6 inches above that is very dry in Las Vegas, but the air 6 inches above tortoise level doesn't really mean anything to the tortoise. A typical enclosure of babies we dump 1/4 gallon of water a day in to, usually over the hide, but it spreads to the surrounding soil. It's never dry dry in the enclosure other than maybe right under the heat light (which we splash a few times a week also, but it dries up much faster than the hide area). The surface of the substrate is usually dry at the very top, with moisture 1/4" below that. Babies spend 70-80% of their day either in the humid hide or burrowed into the moist substrate (which would also be 80%+ humidity). 

Outdoor enclosures here do stay pretty dry, but those are typically adult tortoises that can handle it (and we primarily keep desert/arid species here). We have raised testudo outdoors since hatching, and you'd be shocked to see how smooth they are. They grow pretty slowly, and fade (darken) with the sun, but they grow smooth and hard as a rock. They as outdoor babies spend a lot of time burrowed in to the root balls of plants that hold water (like they would in the wild). All the outdoor tortoises have hidebox areas with sand under them that we spray water in to at least 3-4 times a week during the warm months. It has an evaporative cooling effect in there that lasts for 1-2 days.


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## drew54 (Oct 19, 2018)

Is that area circled supposed to budge a little?


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## wellington (Oct 19, 2018)

drew54 said:


> Is that area circled supposed to budge a little?


Looks like he wants too poop. When you soak him make sure it's in something big enough so he can move around. Warm soaks and movement will help the poop move along easier. Try feeding some head lettuce, cucumber not the seeds, insides of a cactus pad, watery foods to also help any poop that might not be moving along.
It's normally poofy when they need too poop. Otherwise it usually isn't.


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## wellington (Oct 19, 2018)

Oh, I have even ran warm water right from the faucet over that area to help them poop.


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## drew54 (Oct 19, 2018)

His soaks are warm in good size container plenty of room to move. I just cant get him to move or eat. He is soaking at this moment.


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## drew54 (Oct 19, 2018)

wellington said:


> Oh, I have even ran warm water right from the faucet over that area to help them poop.


i will give that a try and see what happens.


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## vladimir (Oct 22, 2018)

How is Bones doing?


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## drew54 (Oct 22, 2018)

He didn’t make it. I think because the temp got too hot that night it had did some irreversible damage to his internal organs. I have since that night corrected my mistake. The first ever animal that I had gotten attached to and one mistake killed him. I feel terrible about it. I'll still be on the forum as I continue to monitor my enclosure temps for a while and make whatever necessary changes. I was going to build his larger enclosure this weekend and then that happened and my car messed up again. I know everyone doesn't agree with Tyler's methods, but I'm convinced this was all my fault and that he was a happy healthy baby before I messed up. thank you for checking up it means a lot.


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## TechnoCheese (Oct 22, 2018)

Oh no! I’m sorry for your loss


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## vladimir (Oct 22, 2018)

drew54 said:


> He didn’t make it. I think because the temp got too hot that night it had did some irreversible damage to his internal organs. I have since that night corrected my mistake. The first ever animal that I had gotten attached to and one mistake killed him. I feel terrible about it. I'll still be on the forum as I continue to monitor my enclosure temps for a while and make whatever necessary changes. I was going to build his larger enclosure this weekend and then that happened and my car messed up again. I know everyone doesn't agree with Tyler's methods, but I'm convinced this was all my fault and that he was a happy healthy baby before I messed up. thank you for checking up it means a lot.


I'm so so sorry. I hope when you're ready you can have another tortoise to help fill the void [emoji45]


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## Arzu78 (Oct 22, 2018)

drew54 said:


> He didn’t make it. I think because the temp got too hot that night it had did some irreversible damage to his internal organs. I have since that night corrected my mistake. The first ever animal that I had gotten attached to and one mistake killed him. I feel terrible about it. I'll still be on the forum as I continue to monitor my enclosure temps for a while and make whatever necessary changes. I was going to build his larger enclosure this weekend and then that happened and my car messed up again. I know everyone doesn't agree with Tyler's methods, but I'm convinced this was all my fault and that he was a happy healthy baby before I messed up. thank you for checking up it means a lot.



Drew it is very difficult, almost impossible, to bring back a little guy once he crosses over to not eating/moving. I had two sulcatas which I was raising “dry”, one stopped eating and moving, got better and took a turn for worst. I did EVERYTHING I could, spent a lot and at the end lost Jack. Lizzy is thriving in a closed enclosure. Try again ... So sorry for Bones


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## drew54 (Oct 22, 2018)

Arzu78 said:


> Drew it is very difficult, almost impossible, to bring back a little guy once he crosses over to not eating/moving. I had two sulcatas which I was raising “dry”, one stopped eating and moving, got better and took a turn for worst. I did EVERYTHING I could, spent a lot and at the end lost Jack. Lizzy is thriving in a closed enclosure. Try again ... So sorry for Bones



Thank you and I will try again. I learned a valuable lesson with bones and one I tend to carry with me to my next one. Just want to make sure 100% with my temps first.


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## drew54 (Oct 22, 2018)

TechnoCheese said:


> Oh no! I’m sorry for your loss



Thank you


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## drew54 (Oct 22, 2018)

vladimir said:


> I'm so so sorry. I hope when you're ready you can have another tortoise to help fill the void [emoji45]



Thank you and I will. My temps are still good 80-85 cool 90-106 hot side. The probe is on the surface and not in the substrate. That's what the issue was and why my little guy got fried. The temp was reading the substrate temp and not the surface temp. So it read low and I bumped the heat up some which ended up being a fatal mistake. Anyway, my next one shouldn't have those issues.


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## vladimir (Oct 22, 2018)

drew54 said:


> Thank you and I will. My temps are still good 80-85 cool 90-106 hot side. The probe is on the surface and not in the substrate. That's what the issue was and why my little guy got fried. The temp was reading the substrate temp and not the surface temp. So it read low and I bumped the heat up some which ended up being a fatal mistake. Anyway, my next one shouldn't have those issues.


May I ask if you plan on taking Tyler up on his offer?


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## drew54 (Oct 22, 2018)

vladimir said:


> May I ask if you plan on taking Tyler up on his offer?



My wife wants me to and I want to, but I don't think I'm ready yet. I'll be honest. When I received the tort from Tyler I immediately fell in love with him. I don't get attached to animals, but he was my first. It broke my heart that Saturday morning when I seen how high those temps got and I knew it wasn't good. I tried to cool him off and get him going, but he just kept declining. I don't believe Tyler's way of raising and breeding is necessarily wrong and I know it wasn't anything he did. The hatchling was very active happy and healthy when I got him and remained that way until I changed the substrate and the probe got covered causing the high temps. It's been rough since last Saturday. I buried him yesterday with my three year old who balled when he seen him. I did too and I don't think right now I'm emotionally ready. I have a lot guilt right now because all I had to do was check the floor temp and pull the probe up to the surface and he would still be running his laps and his water dish. In time when I'm ready I will order anther from Tyler. Bones was an amazing little guy.


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## Arzu78 (Oct 22, 2018)

drew54 said:


> Thank you and I will try again. I learned a valuable lesson with bones and one I tend to carry with me to my next one. Just want to make sure 100% with my temps first.



Believe me, I know how you are feeling, I shed tears for Jack while I tend to Lizzy, but it gets better day by day ... Temps are the most important !!!


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## drew54 (Oct 22, 2018)

I agree fully on the temps. I know it will get easier, but it just sucks because I checked the temps a hundred times a day and the one time I didn't it was fatal. I'm sorry you lost Jack. How old was he?


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## Arzu78 (Oct 22, 2018)

drew54 said:


> I agree fully on the temps. I know it will get easier, but it just sucks because I checked the temps a hundred times a day and the one time I didn't it was fatal. I'm sorry you lost Jack. How old was he?



A baby 3 months ... You know, once they cross that fine line, there is no temp, no soak able to bring them, don’t blame yourself ... it is a lot to take in as is, I could have done a thousands things, it was too late ...


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## drew54 (Oct 22, 2018)

Arzu78 said:


> A baby 3 months ... You know, once they cross that fine line, there is no temp, no soak able to bring them, don’t blame yourself ... it is a lot to take in as is, I could have done a thousands things, it was too late ...



Yeah, it's a difficult journey, but I'm confident next time will be much smoother and better.


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## xphare (Oct 24, 2018)

I am sorry for your lose. Its never easy losing a friend.


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## xphare (Oct 24, 2018)

TylerStewart said:


> Keeping moisture in the substrate will keep humidity in the moderate range at tortoise-level. Keeping the substrate moist and then putting a ceramic or plastic cave with a small opening over it will keep the humidity high inside that hide where tortoises spend a lot of time. The air 6 inches above that is very dry in Las Vegas, but the air 6 inches above tortoise level doesn't really mean anything to the tortoise. A typical enclosure of babies we dump 1/4 gallon of water a day in to, usually over the hide, but it spreads to the surrounding soil. It's never dry dry in the enclosure other than maybe right under the heat light (which we splash a few times a week also, but it dries up much faster than the hide area). The surface of the substrate is usually dry at the very top, with moisture 1/4" below that. Babies spend 70-80% of their day either in the humid hide or burrowed into the moist substrate (which would also be 80%+ humidity).
> 
> Outdoor enclosures here do stay pretty dry, but those are typically adult tortoises that can handle it (and we primarily keep desert/arid species here). We have raised testudo outdoors since hatching, and you'd be shocked to see how smooth they are. They grow pretty slowly, and fade (darken) with the sun, but they grow smooth and hard as a rock. They as outdoor babies spend a lot of time burrowed in to the root balls of plants that hold water (like they would in the wild). All the outdoor tortoises have hidebox areas with sand under them that we spray water in to at least 3-4 times a week during the warm months. It has an evaporative cooling effect in there that lasts for 1-2 days.



I am with @TylerStewart on this one. I'm glad the closed chamber works for everyone who uses it but I do not use it at all and have had nothing but success. I received a baby leopard from Tyler in 2017 and she is almost a year and a half now growing like a weed. She is in an open air enclosure where she can choose what micro-climate she wants to be at. She is soaked twice a day (morning and evening) and I also spray her carapace multiple times a day. Her humid hide is near 100% humidity and the substrate is always moist from pouring water on it when needed. She eats everything insight and is growing smoothly. I'm raising my sulcata the same way and he's thriving. Just goes to show you can raise tortoises different ways and still have success. BTW who is going to the TTPG conference. Would love to continue this conversation in person.


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