# The Minority Report



## SteveW (Oct 9, 2015)

So while trying to make a different point yesterday, I inadvertently 'came out of the closed chamber', if you will, in regards to how I am raising a leopard (tortoise I mean. the cats are way different). Some folks seem to be curious, as to the how's and why's, hence this thread. 
My experience has been primarily with Redfoot tortoises in California, an engaging but maddening species that both requires humidity to avoid pyramiding but also gets shell rot. In at least one situation that I am particularly proud of, I was able to accomplish both conditions simultaneously. 
While wrapping my head around that little gem, I was also playing around with both temperature and light with an eye to providing an environmental gradient. So, not four temperatures but 40 (note: this number was arbitrarily chosen to make a point and is not meant to be taken literally). A similar approach was taken with lighting. My qualitative, purely subjective observation was that when provided such a range of conditions, activity levels were higher and more closely resembled behaviors outdoors. I took this to be a good thing and applied the same concept to humidity. 
Thus, a humid hid full of sphagnum moss, buried under coco coir with plants growing. Humidity reads 99% till the gauge dies. On top, among the plants it's about 80%. Proceeding up the heat and light gradient, the RH drops to about 50%. This, with twice daily soaks has so far yielded this:




I'm happy so far. The same basic approach has produced this guy



Not bad and no shell rot, but he doesn't look wild and that would the goal. 

Anyway, that's where I'm coming from. To add more would jeopardize my hard won lurker status.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 9, 2015)

I don't use closed chambers either and I have successfully raised smooth leopards, texas tortoises and Manouria. The texas babies pyramid very easily, so I'm pleased with the way they're turning out in an open-topped habitat.

I cool my house with an evaporative cooler. This blows air constantly and my baby containers are just around the corner from where the cooler blows in, so I have to keep them covered, but they aren't tightly closed like a chamber. I just have sheet plastic film draped over the light stand.

Thank you for sharing your pictures with us. The little leopard is a real cuteypie. Looks like he's saying, "Tcht..again???"


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## Alaskamike (Oct 16, 2015)

I somehow missed this thread. The debatable section being my favorite place , odd. 

Good job on the leopard & Redfoot. There certainly are many combinations of light / UV / humidity that can work well. 

Outdoors here in Florida the humidity is 60-99% most of the year with only a


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## wellington (Oct 16, 2015)

Alaskamike said:


> I somehow missed this thread. The debatable section being my favorite place , odd.
> 
> Good job on the leopard & Redfoot. There certainly are many combinations of light / UV / humidity that can work well.
> 
> Outdoors here in Florida the humidity is 60-99% most of the year with only a



With only a what?


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## Alaskamike (Oct 16, 2015)

Sorry ... 
Cut off mid sentence. 

... Couple months of cool / cold weather. 

So in those months my little ones came inside. I still have one little Redfoot that needs indoors during the cold. 

I'm building his place now.


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## Team Gomberg (Oct 16, 2015)

It looks like you've done a great job.

I used closed chambers as a quick, easy way to create the hot and humid environment I wanted but I always enjoy seeing what others do to provide their leopards with a good environment. So, thanks for sharing!


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## Alaskamike (Oct 16, 2015)

That last post of mine didn't say what I intended. Too many things going on here at once. . 

What I intended to say was - in the design of my enclosure I have decided on a closed chamber The reasons are several : 

It takes less heat to have both a basking spot and keep overall temps where I want them - I can do it with a 65 watt CHE. I still can get them out several x's a week for natural sunlight - it gets 75f many days with sun. 

I like my humidity no lower than 70% or higher than 85% in general + a humid hide. I can achieve this easily with a closed chamber. But I do not keep mine steamy wet. Especially with my Redfoot.


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## leigti (Oct 16, 2015)

Team Gomberg said:


> It looks like you've done a great job.
> 
> I used closed chambers as a quick, easy way to create the hot and humid environment I wanted but I always enjoy seeing what others do to provide their leopards with a good environment. So, thanks for sharing!


I think you just brought up one of the advantages of a closed chamber. It is a quick easy way to get the humidity and heat you want. That's why I think it is a good recommendation to new tortoise owners with hatchlings. Depending on the species of course, I realize that. It can take a while to get things just right and hatchlings don't have that much time to tolerate wrong conditions.
I have a closed chamber for one tortoise and the other enclosure I just draped a clear shower curtain over A PVC frame. I did this mostly to keep the heat in A large enclosure but it does help with humidity but it is definitely not completely closed tight or anything.
I think there is a continuum between closeed Chambers and open tables and what works depends on many variables.


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## wellington (Oct 16, 2015)

The biggest common denominater is the humidity. Anyone growing a smooth tort uses a higher humidity. However this is achieved is a good thing. Closed chamber is not the only way of achieving this. I do personally think it is the easiest and with the heat it holds, cheaper way too. 
What always seems to throw me for a loop, is when people dispute the closed chamber idea, or say they are achieving smooth growth without the closed chamber, yet they are still using a high humidity. To me, that's Toms main point, is the high humidity with warmer temps, not how he's achieving the high humidity. The how (closed chamber) is a way he found to be easy. If there is an easier way or even if it's not easier, but a way that works, great, share it. I don't think anyone would dispute how your acheiving the high humidity. What would be more of a debate, is if you are growing a smooth Sulcata, leopard, or any/most tortoises without a higher humidity or any humidity. Then you would not be following the research Tom has done and therefore, actually doing it differently.


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## SteveW (Oct 17, 2015)

wellington said:


> The biggest common denominater is the humidity. Anyone growing a smooth tort uses a higher humidity. However this is achieved is a good thing. Closed chamber is not the only way of achieving this. I do personally think it is the easiest and with the heat it holds, cheaper way too.
> What always seems to throw me for a loop, is when people dispute the closed chamber idea, or say they are achieving smooth growth without the closed chamber, yet they are still using a high humidity. To me, that's Toms main point, is the high humidity with warmer temps, not how he's achieving the high humidity. The how (closed chamber) is a way he found to be easy. If there is an easier way or even if it's not easier, but a way that works, great, share it. I don't think anyone would dispute how your acheiving the high humidity. What would be more of a debate, is if you are growing a smooth Sulcata, leopard, or any/most tortoises without a higher humidity or any humidity. Then you would not be following the research Tom has done and therefore, actually doing it differently.



I appreciate the nuance you are bringing to bear; too often I think, responses seem to regard any but closed chambers as unsuitable. Particularly, if like me, the gradient runs upwards of 50%RH. However, based on the sympathetic confessions here, it seems as though I'm not quite the lone wolf I'd always pictured. Not to worry, I have other dangerous ideas to share. 
To be clear, I consider closed chambers to be good, even great, and by far the simplest. I just don't think they are the best. I base this on my own limited observations, extrapolated reasoning and pure conjecture, so caveat emptor. 
Also relevant is that I currently have nine chelonians in my life. Obsessive compulsive husbandry would not be possible, for me at least, with a higher population unless I quit my day job, and a closed chamber approach would be a viable option. 
Sorry if I threw you for a loop, but I think the humidity issue is different than the closed chamber issue and I think the difference is worth noting. 

At least a little relevant to your last point is that until very recently I'd never read/heard of Tom so I couldn't very well be following his methodology. Here's an old paper that did serve to inform my approach to humidity. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/14511150/


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## Tom (Oct 17, 2015)

That study had quite an effect on me too.

I've have tried numerous times to achieve the results you are seeing there in open topped enclosures and your feelings on your red foot in the pic pretty much sums up my feelings on my results too. "Not bad and no shell rot, but he doesn't look wild and that would the goal."

I simply found closed chambers to be an easier way to accomplish what I was trying to accomplish and the results have also been universally better for me and others who have tried it.

I would love to see more of your current leopard set up and hear more details about the heating, lighting and thermal gradients you've been using. I'm always looking to learn more. Constantly experimenting.

I would also love to see what would happen if you took a crack at a closed chamber, armed with your current knowledge and experience. I'd love to see what new things you'd discover, what your results would be, and ultimately which style you would prefer in the end.


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## wellington (Oct 17, 2015)

I think it seems that way, because it seems to be the easiest at this point, there is a detailed thread about it and someone, in this case Tom took the time to experiment with it and place his findings in a detailed thread that he shared with this forum. I don't send people to the threads because it's the only way, but more so for the temp and humidity importance. The closed chamber part explains the easiest way to achieve the temps and humidity, which so many members struggle with.
Now if you wouldn't mind sharing what you do in as much detail, and with pics, as they are worth a thousand words, many would love to read it I'm sure. I've been waiting for the thread you said you would do. This I hope is only the start of it, because you really didn't share much for anyone to really understand how your set up is.
That was my main complaint in the other thread. Don't just say your idea works without backing it up with pics and info on how it was done. I and hopefully most if not all members don't believe just what they read on the Internet without some kind of proof backing it up. Even if it's some else's proof, as long as it's proof.
So why won't you share more? If it works and you show proof of it in set up and smooth tort, how could anyone really dispute it?


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## leigti (Oct 17, 2015)

Steve W i'm glad you don't feel like a Lonewolf anymore. Most of the people that come to the forum are brand-new to tortoises and many of them have hatchlings. Ants live in colder climates. So putting it altogether recommending closed chamber type enclosure is often the easiest way for their tortoise to get the humidity and heat it needs.


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## SteveW (Oct 17, 2015)

leigti said:


> Steve W i'm glad you don't feel like a Lonewolf anymore. Most of the people that come to the forum are brand-new to tortoises and many of them have hatchlings. Ants live in colder climates. So putting it altogether recommending closed chamber type enclosure is often the easiest way for their tortoise to get the humidity and heat it needs.



Not to split hairs, but I said not quite as much of a lone wolf. I'm still clinging to my rugged individualism 

Your point is well taken. Easier it is.


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## SteveW (Oct 17, 2015)

Tom said:


> That study had quite an effect on me too.
> 
> I've have tried numerous times to achieve the results you are seeing there in open topped enclosures and your feelings on your red foot in the pic pretty much sums up my feelings on my results too. "Not bad and no shell rot, but he doesn't look wild and that would the goal."
> 
> ...



I'll get some pics when I have some time, and take apart the lighting so you can see what I'm doing. I'd love to get any feed back you have to offer. By the way, I actually do have a partially closed chamber in operation for a Burmese but there I am going for complete swamp. 
As to the redfoot, it bugs me, but to be fair (to me) I've not seen many captives outside of the SE that look truly wild. I'm wondering if there are maybe other things in play. As you say, always experimenting.


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## SteveW (Oct 17, 2015)

wellington said:


> I think it seems that way, because it seems to be the easiest at this point, there is a detailed thread about it and someone, in this case Tom took the time to experiment with it and place his findings in a detailed thread that he shared with this forum. I don't send people to the threads because it's the only way, but more so for the temp and humidity importance. The closed chamber part explains the easiest way to achieve the temps and humidity, which so many members struggle with.
> Now if you wouldn't mind sharing what you do in as much detail, and with pics, as they are worth a thousand words, many would love to read it I'm sure. I've been waiting for the thread you said you would do. This I hope is only the start of it, because you really didn't share much for anyone to really understand how your set up is.
> That was my main complaint in the other thread. Don't just say your idea works without backing it up with pics and info on how it was done. I and hopefully most if not all members don't believe just what they read on the Internet without some kind of proof backing it up. Even if it's some else's proof, as long as it's proof.
> So why won't you share more? If it works and you show proof of it in set up and smooth tort, how could anyone really dispute it?



Hi Wellington. Your response to me has been at first complete rejection of any variation from the accepted ideas, then trying to subsume my ideas as differing in only trivial details. Neither seems indicative of someone interested in learning anything. Now apparently your playing the 'put up or shut up' card. That's fair enough, and I'll endeavor to do so (the former anyway) but I'll ask the same of you. If you have anything of first hand knowledge to add please do so, but it doesn't help anyone for you to just repeat what someone else says. Even less helpful is your defensive posture. Tom's clearly not threatened by my comments here, why are you?


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## wellington (Oct 17, 2015)

SteveW said:


> Hi Wellington. Your response to me has been at first complete rejection of any variation from the accepted ideas, then trying to subsume my ideas as differing in only trivial details. Neither seems indicative of someone interested in learning anything. Now apparently your playing the 'put up or shut up' card. That's fair enough, and I'll endeavor to do so (the former anyway) but I'll ask the same of you. If you have anything of first hand knowledge to add please do so, but it doesn't help anyone for you to just repeat what someone else says. Even less helpful is your defensive posture. Tom's clearly not threatened by my comments here, why are you?


So not threaten at all. I want to see how your set up is. Been waiting for you to start your thread and then when you do, you don't give any helpful info. That's all. I am interested in seeing it. Always interested in success stories of growing smooth tortoises. I just don't like when they won't share what is said they are doing, specially if they are trying to discredit what has already been prove . My time hopefully will be sometime next year. That I will be able to raise some hatchlings smooth, well until sold that is. Unfortunately, the one I raised from a hatchling was started wrong from breeder and then myself, as I listened to the breeder, until I finally found this forum. However my efforts were too late. I actually tried an enclosure with two different climates. One hot and humid and closed except an opening to a tunnel to another enclosure that was warm and not mostly dry. My leopard preferred the hot and humid side, only going to the other side mainly for eating and a few laps. This was in 2011/12. 
My love for animals is to have them be as true to their species/breed as possible. For tortoises, I would love to eventually never see a pyramided tortoise again being raised, except the older ones of course. So for me as many different ways this can be accomplished the better. One way doesn't always appeal to everyone.


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## SteveW (Oct 21, 2015)

Well I can't seem to get a decent picture with all in place and I don't want to take everything apart, so perhaps the proverbial 'thousand words' will do. 
Visualize, if you will, a t5HO on a diagonal that spans almost half of the enclosure. At the midway point of the enclosure, there is a CHE on a thermostat set at 85F. This keeps both ends at 80F minimum. On the basking end, and to one side, there is a CHE on a thermostat set at 95F, that is limited via timer to 12 hours. I use a combo of LEDs and incandescents at 2500, 5000, and 6500 to get the most complete spectrum I can, and a max temp of 100F. By keeping the heat to one side, there is a minor lateral gradient as well as the 20ish degree gradient, end to end. There are humid hides at both ends and in the middle. In this way, there are opportunities for heat, light, and UV in differing combinations and levels. 
This microclimate approach is what I can't duplicate with a closed chamber. 
I have no idea how important this could be or even how it could be tested. Clearly it's not required. However, wouldn't it follow that a poikilotherm with demonstrated need for humidity and visual acuity into the UV would have the mechanism to correctly modulate these conditions if the environment allowed?
I don't have a definite answer, but according to my research, playing with lights and timers is more fun than the Facebook tortoise group,so that's something.


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## wellington (Oct 22, 2015)

So, other then the humid hides, is the rest open or is there some sort of top? 
The t5HO your using, is it Arcadia? If it's a different one, what kind? Also do you have a UVB meter?
I'm looking into new lights and a members Arcadia has only lost about 50% in two years, pretty good, but none of our suppliers (work for aquarium store)carry them.
Still would love a pic. Just take it from the front. Your discription is pretty good on where things are placed. Thanks
Oh and what is the humidity in the hides and what is it outside them?


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## Neal (Oct 23, 2015)

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

I have had good, but inconsistent success raising leopard tortoises without enclosed chambers or high humidity. A couple of years ago I switched to using closed chambers and consistently high amounts of humidity. I am still receiving the same mix of inconsistent results. That's not to say, I have a mix of smooth and horribly pyramided tortoises. It's more like I have some that are near perfect and some that are about 80% - 90% of the way there. Still successful though, but questions and further trials for me still remain.

Husbandry demands for tortoises kept in closed chambers is significantly less, I have found. I don't think I will ever go back to not using closed chambers if only to save me lots of time.

Do I understand correctly that your leopard tortoise has been exposed to no less than 50% RH consistently?


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## SteveW (Oct 26, 2015)

Neal said:


> Thank you for sharing your experiences.
> 
> I have had good, but inconsistent success raising leopard tortoises without enclosed chambers or high humidity. A couple of years ago I switched to using closed chambers and consistently high amounts of humidity. I am still receiving the same mix of inconsistent results. That's not to say, I have a mix of smooth and horribly pyramided tortoises. It's more like I have some that are near perfect and some that are about 80% - 90% of the way there. Still successful though, but questions and further trials for me still remain.
> 
> ...



I hear you on the taking less time part. I have a clump of sphagnum moss in the middle and on the hot end that I rehydrate 2x a day. And no, that doesn't get old at all  
In regards the humidity, there are locations on the flagstone in the hot end that can drop to even 30% RH, but literally inches away it climbs right back up. 
Every zone seems to be utilized, the hot/dry part regularly, but not long duration. 
It's interesting that you are having mixed (within the parameters) results even in closed chambers. Are you seeing that with other species?
I have a redfoot with some shell issues but he had the dry start to life that may or may not be causal, but is at least adding some doubt to the results.


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## Neal (Oct 26, 2015)

No only mixed results with the leopards. I've raised sulcatas, stars, and a few Mediterraneans in this way and the only inconsistencies were with the "normal" type leopards. 

The South African variants all grew smooth for me.


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