# Sick tortoise...please help.



## DeeCee (Jul 15, 2012)

Hello everyone. I am hoping that you may be able to offer me some advice. My russian tortoise is sick and I do not know what else to do. 

It all started last week. I noticed that he had not eaten in a few days. There are times of the year where my tortoise is much more inactive than others and does not have the best appetite (when it is very cold in the winter, and when it is very hot in the summer like right now) so at first I was not extremely alarmed. I went to pick him up after giving him new food, and I noticed that the back of his legs were swollen and it looked like the skin around his arms and head were swollen too. He also hates being handled and will always pull his legs in when I pick him up, and he did not retract them this time. 

I brought my tortoise to a vet the next day. The vet asked me what I was feeding him and I told him that I fed my tortoise romaine, and spring mix with the occasional fruit. The vet told me the diet I was feeding my tortoise was very inadequate and he is likely suffering from malnourishment. I always thought this diet was ok, and that is what his previous owner fed him, so I am extremely upset at the news. The vet gave my tortoise a vitamin A and D shot, and said I needed to try to get him to eat to hope for any type of recovery. I immediately went home and gave my tortoise the food that the vet had given me, but my tortoise still will not eat. He does not look as inactive as he did a few days ago, but he still will not touch his food and he still won't walk. I have tried feeding it to him, he still will not eat it. I really do not know what else to do - the vet said if he does not eat in a few more days that I have to bring my tortoise back or I will be "burying him." Does anyone have any other advice in the meantime? I just feel so bad for the little guy


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## dmmj (Jul 15, 2012)

Swelling in the legs like that is usually edema, basically retention of fluids. There can be many reasons for this from the simple an infection of some type to the serious kidney failure. A long term diet of heavy fruit feeding could have something to do with this, to much sugar but it depends on how often you were feeding and it would have to be long term.


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## DeeCee (Jul 15, 2012)

dmmj said:


> Swelling in the legs like that is usually edema, basically retention of fluids. There can be many reasons for this from the simple an infection of some type to the serious kidney failure. A long term diet of heavy fruit feeding could have something to do with this, to much sugar but it depends on how often you were feeding and it would have to be long term.



Thanks for your response. I would give my tortoise fruit very sparingly, maybe once a month IF that. It was not a regular occurrence. I've had my tortoise for 2 1/2 years now.


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## ascott (Jul 15, 2012)

> the vet said if he does not eat in a few more days that I have to _bring my tortoise back or I will be "burying him._" Does anyone have any other advice in the meantime? I just feel so bad for the little guy



Yes, the first advise I would give you is to find a new vet, the one you have sounds like a real idiot....

As mentioned swelling can have many meanings and the worst thing that your vet did was give vit a injection....really? How does he equate swelling limbs with malnutrition?...not a very good vet...

May we please see a pic of your tort? Pics from the front, side and underside---also a pic of his face please....

I would stop offering him food right now...but please get pics posted for us to look at...pics can speak volumes...


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## kimber_lee_314 (Jul 15, 2012)

Get a new vet ASAP! The diet you were feeding him was was probably not the cause of this. What you were feeding him was fine (higher calcium greens and more natural foods would be better.) I'm not sure what the vet gave you to feed him, but I would keep feeding him whatever he was eating before he got sick. This is not the time to change his diet. I am also concerned about the vitamin shot he was given. I would get him to reptile vet as soon as you can. Where are you located?


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## DeeCee (Jul 15, 2012)

kimber_lee_314 said:


> Get a new vet ASAP! The diet you were feeding him was was probably not the cause of this. What you were feeding him was fine (higher calcium greens and more natural foods would be better.) I'm not sure what the vet gave you to feed him, but I would keep feeding him whatever he was eating before he got sick. This is not the time to change his diet. I am also concerned about the vitamin shot he was given. I would get him to reptile vet as soon as you can. Where are you located?



I'm located in CT. Will try to get the pictures up ASAP


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## reticguy76 (Jul 15, 2012)

Wow, your vet did not say that ??!!!

Run and dont look back (and post some feedback on your experiences on websites)


I wont even touch the injection of vitamins thing (wow !!!)

Can you post some pics of whats exactly going on ? First things that come to mind with swelling is - edema, inflammations, infection, injury (soft tissue swelling), poor circulatory issue, etc.


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## ascott (Jul 15, 2012)

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Connecticut#axzz20itQHytx

I don't know if any of these are near you and I have no personal knowledge of any of them either....


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## DeeCee (Jul 15, 2012)

Here is one picture of his underside.. you can see some of the swelling in his back legs. 

He still won't eat


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## kimber_lee_314 (Jul 15, 2012)

He does look like he has edema which could be caused by a number of things. I hope you can get him into a vet tomorrow. I would think he needs to be started on antibiotics. The vitamin A shot could have seriously hurt him, so be sure to tell your vet that he was given that. I'm not sure what can be done about it now, but at least the vet will know so that further damage won't be done. In the meantime, soak him in warm water at least once a day and increase the temperatures in his enclosure. Keep offering him food - any of his favorites (although avoid the fruit) and get him to a qualified reptile vet as soon as possible. Poor guy! Keep us informed on how he's doing. Good luck!


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## ascott (Jul 15, 2012)

How long have you had him in your home? You said "prior owner" so that tells me he lived somewhere else and had prior host caring for him....


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## DeeCee (Jul 15, 2012)

I've had him for 2.5 years now. I believe the previous owner had him for 3-4.


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## dmmj (Jul 15, 2012)

One thing to consider no matter how sad it may be, it might be dying, males are usually full grown at about that size, and it could have been an older imported tortoise. I am not trying to be mean, just a possibility, a vet visit should give you a better idea.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 15, 2012)

Hi DeeCee:

I'm sorry to have to welcome you to the forum under such stressful conditions.

Giving a tortoise that has a poor appetite, a vitamin injection, is the old school way of vet thinking. The vitamin a,d,e shot is supposed to stimulate the appetite, and it might be ok if the vitamin a portion wasn't included. What you have to watch for now is the skin sloughing off because of an overdose of vitamin a.

I know that it sounds counter to what's going on, and with edema it seems like you don't want to add more water to his system, however, I believe that daily soaking in warm water with liquid bird vitamins added to the water will be helpful. Tortoises usually will pee in the soak, and that's what you want him to do, to try to get rid of some of the fluids he's retaining. He will also get some benefit from the vitamins, even if he doesn't drink, he will absorb some of the nutrients through the thin skin along his neck and around his cloaca.

Try to keep him warm and quiet and don't worry about him eating until he gets better.

Spring Mix is fine, however I've noticed lately that it has an awful lot of spinach in it, so I've quit using it. I buy the Santa Barbara mix now. I would also stop using the romaine. Go out into the yard and look for some weeds - fillaree, sow thistle, clover, dichondra, dandelion...any of the broad-leaf plants. You can also offer plantain, grape leaves, mullberry leaves. Put out fresh food for him every day, but don't force him into eating it. Just have it there in case he gets interested.

Good luck with him. I hope you are able to find a vet who knows about tortoises.


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## DeeCee (Jul 15, 2012)

emysemys said:


> Hi DeeCee:
> 
> I'm sorry to have to welcome you to the forum under such stressful conditions.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your advice, emysemys. I am keeping food nearby in case he wants to eat again. I can't tell if the edema is getting worse, he does look more swollen  What is typically done to reverse the edema? Supposedly the vet I went to treats reptiles, but after reading these comments I am very nervous.


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## dmmj (Jul 15, 2012)

If it is an infection of some type, antibiotics will be used to treat it. Sadly kidney failure usually can't be treated, but it is better to wait and see what a vet says before making any decisions.


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## ascott (Jul 15, 2012)

> Renal dysfunction: Signs include oedema (water retention), pale mucous membranes, lethargy, reluctance/inability to urinate, weight increase due to fluid retention. Often seen following long term anorexia, dehydration and bacterial infection. Get veterinary help immediately. *In early stages, regular warm baths and physiotherapy of back legs can help release any blockage.*



Just for reference....As Yvonne shared, I too would do the soaks, warm water soaks...also, locate a for real reptile vet that you can go to with your tort....

Please keep us posted..if you do not mind that is..


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## DeeCee (Jul 16, 2012)

I have a vet appt for him today at 4:30. Things were still status quo this morning when I checked up on him. Will do my best to post updates.


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## CLMoss (Jul 16, 2012)

Good luck deecee, my thoughts are with you today. Take care, C


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## Laurie (Jul 16, 2012)

Keep us updated, good luck!


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## DeeCee (Jul 17, 2012)

Ok so here's my update. Things are still not looking good it seems. I brought my tort back to the reptile vet yesterday and he lost a little weight. He overall looked a little brighter in his face, but he is still not eating or walking. The vet said he looks malnourished and anemic still and gave him a shot of vitamins and also a shot of antibiotics (baytril) in case he had any infection in addition since he was so weak. The vet also suggested continued soaks and to also soak the tort in pedialyte. The vet said if I am not able to get my tort to eat by today (Tuesday) then I should consider bringing him to the animal hospital tomorrow to stay during the day where he will be force fed by a tube and kept in the incubator until I pick him up after work. 

I still do not know what to do. I am trying the pedialyte today but the tort will not eat. Even if I hold the food close to his beak so he just has to open up to take a bite still nothing. Now I have to consider bringing him to the hospital and I am worried about the bill as I already spent quite a bit already and to be honest I do not know how much more I can afford. Im not trying to be cruel, I'm just saying. Also my boss has been gracious allowing me to take time off for my tort's vet visits, but I do not know how much longer I can get away with. On top of it, I just read some
Bad stuff about baytril and am worried about that as well. 

I am open to any advice or suggestions. I know ultimately I must make
My own decision in this matter, but I'm really at a loss and do not know what to do. I just do not want my tortoise to suffer. I feel so upset and depressed about all of this. 

Please give your feedback, input, anything. Thank you.


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## reticguy76 (Jul 17, 2012)

baytril (and all fluroquinilone antimicrobials) are strong ab's. However, very potent internally, particularly to the kidneys.

I kinda skimmed through this thread, did they do any diagnostics (ie, blood work, urinalysis, fecal, xrays) ??


Im thinking that this tortoise has had some issues for a long time, years most likely. Its nobodys fault. Its tough to notice subtle changes in an animal, let along reptiles of any significance. 


I cant tell you how many animals we see in my hospital that come in sick and down, that were up and acting fairly normal the day before. Fact is, animals are much "tougher" than we are in terms of sickness and injury. In my 15 years in veterinary medicine, I would say, 10% (if that) of owners that bring their pets in actually catch chronic illnesses in time to fully rectify it.


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## kimber_lee_314 (Jul 17, 2012)

I think Baytril gets a bad rap. I use it a lot here at my house and I have never had any problems with it. I wouldn't worry too much about that at this point. Any negative effects of Baytril are worth it considering how sick this guy is.


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## DeeCee (Jul 17, 2012)

reticguy76 said:


> baytril (and all fluroquinilone antimicrobials) are strong ab's. However, very potent internally, particularly to the kidneys.
> 
> I kinda skimmed through this thread, did they do any diagnostics (ie, blood work, urinalysis, fecal, xrays) ??
> 
> ...



Thanks for your reply. There weren't any X-rays taken. The vet said at this stage he didn't want to take blood from my tortoise. He said something to the effect that it could do more harm than good. 

Have any of you had any successes with the vet force feeding your tortoise? I'm trying the pedialyte bath now, just to try everything the vet suggested.


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## CLMoss (Jul 18, 2012)

How is your tortoise doing today? I have been thinking about you. ~C


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## DeeCee (Jul 18, 2012)

CLMoss said:


> How is your tortoise doing today? I have been thinking about you. ~C



Thanks for asking. He's doing the same today, still won't eat. I'm calling the vet back today to see if I should bring him to the animal hospital Friday to be force fed. I gave him a pedialyte bath this morning before work and will soak him again as soon as I get home.


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## ascott (Jul 18, 2012)

> The vet said he looks malnourished and anemic still and _gave him a shot of vitamins and also a shot of antibiotics (baytril)_ in case he had any infection in addition since he was so weak.



Is this the same vet that you originally took him to?? I would be very concerned about the amount of vitamins that he is being given...your last vet visit they gave injections for vitamin A as well ....if this is a different vet did you let the vet know that the prior vet gave a vitamin A injection as well (that was just a couple days ago?)...Baytril is not a bad antibiotic, however, it as well as some other antibiotics are hard on the tortoise kidney...so you should be doing at least one warm water soak and it should be for about an hour....

Also, the vet visits are a very stressful on a tort...so I personally would try to give him some time to relax at home with the daily soaks and I certainly would not allow him to receive any further vitamin shots....if the vet says that drawing blood will do more than good???? Did you ask him what the hell exactly that means? I would not allow someone to keep injecting crap unless they have drawn blood to know what they are trying to treat.....

There is no saying that all the visits and shots and force feeding will keep your tort from passing....so, with this in mind I would really reflect on what treatments you can offer to your tort in the calm and familiarity of his own home....you would be surprised at how long a tort can go without food...it bothers us humans in a way that makes us crazy---but that is our issue not the torts.....I would offer long warm water soaks, I would make sure all his temps are bang on, I would offer him as much outside time as really possible...I would offer fresh food to him every day and do the waiting game....now understand that in my opinion, that there comes a point where we have done alot to the tort and there is no apparent improvement, that we must facilitate a safe and calm environment for our trusting tort to be allowed to either work through what is ailing them and or let the cycle of life play itself out in which way it is meant to be.....I know that this sounds different than alot of folks saying "take him to the vet and have everything done" and when a tort is visually sick that usually means he has been ill for some time before we even notice.....again, this is simply my take and is in no way me telling you what to do...that as you stated, is going to be up to you....

I wish your tort a full recovery and I wish you a sense of calm and peace when deciding what you will do to help your tortoise....I hope he is simply going through a thing and will get on through it safely...


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## dmmj (Jul 18, 2012)

I can't believe the vet is injecting antibiotics without any type of diagnosis work. The final decisions is yours, but if the vet is suggesting force feeding, a feeding tube might be an option.


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## yagyujubei (Jul 18, 2012)

I'm not sure if it's been said here yet, but a definate side effect of antibiotics, baytril in particular is loss of appetite. I don't believe that he will eat on his own until the baytril is done.


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## *Barracuda_50* (Jul 18, 2012)

ascott said:


> Is this the same vet that you originally took him to?? I would be very concerned about the amount of vitamins that he is being given...your last vet visit they gave injections for vitamin A as well ....if this is a different vet did you let the vet know that the prior vet gave a vitamin A injection as well (that was just a couple days ago?)...Baytril is not a bad antibiotic, however, it as well as some other antibiotics are hard on the tortoise kidney...so you should be doing at least one warm water soak and it should be for about an hour....
> 
> Also, the vet visits are a very stressful on a tort...so I personally would try to give him some time to relax at home with the daily soaks and I certainly would not allow him to receive any further vitamin shots....if the vet says that drawing blood will do more than good???? Did you ask him what the hell exactly that means? I would not allow someone to keep injecting crap unless they have drawn blood to know what they are trying to treat.....
> 
> ...



I gota totaly agree...

and as for my 2 cents on Baytril not to upset anyone  or anything but i will never use nor alow anyone to give my animals or reps Baytril.


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## Snowqueen75 (Jul 18, 2012)

Really hope he gets well soon sooo sad


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## DeeCee (Jul 18, 2012)

Snowqueen75 said:


> Really hope he gets well soon sooo sad



Thank you. I really appreciate it. I am bringing him back one last time so the vet can force feed him and keep him in the animal hospital for the day. This will be my last attempt at the vet. After this, I feel that I will have done everything I can to help and will just let what is to be to be. I am continuing with the soaks. I will definitely update again once I have more news. Things are still the same right now - he's just sitting there and not eating. My poor little guy


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## Nixxy (Jul 19, 2012)

My thoughts are with you and I hope he gets better.


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## CLMoss (Jul 21, 2012)

How is your tortoise feeling?


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## DeeCee (Jul 21, 2012)

CLMoss said:


> How is your tortoise feeling?



I brought Toby to the vet Friday for force feeding and a day stay at the animal hospital and picked him up after work. He seemed a little more alert once I brought him home, and I soaked him again. He did not eat this morning when I was home, I do not know if it was from the stress of the vet or if it's because he's still not well. He did move in his enclosure a little bit, more than he has moved on his own in a while. I will see what happens tomorrow. I am more hopeful than I was last week but I really have to get him eating on his own. I can't keep bringing him back to the vet for force feeding. His legs are still swollen however. They might have gone slightly but they are definitely still swollen so I don't know


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## CLMoss (Jul 21, 2012)

Thank you for getting back to us (forum). And please keep us updated! Can the vet teach you how to feed him? Good luck! ~C


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## TortieLuver (Jul 21, 2012)

Thanks for the update! Although I'm glad they were able to feed him through a tube, it's important to determine what is causing this and I just pray the antibiotics work. I know this must be difficult for you. We can clearly see your love for your tort and you have done all you can. Can't wait to hear from you again.


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## Laura (Jul 21, 2012)

is he outside in the sun? how warm is his enclosure? if he is too cold he will not eat. Have you done the babyfood soaks? 
the one picture you posted looks like an old tort to me.. what kind of history do you have?


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## DeeCee (Jul 22, 2012)

Laura said:


> is he outside in the sun? how warm is his enclosure? if he is too cold he will not eat. Have you done the babyfood soaks?
> the one picture you posted looks like an old tort to me.. what kind of history do you have?



He mainly lives in my house but I bring him outside. Right now he is inside. He does not have an enclosure in my yard. When I bring him out, I stay with him so he doesn't run away. In his healthier days if I turned my head he'd be halfway across the yard in about two minutes  

The warmer part of his tank is 95-100 degrees. Yesterday it did get to 110 so I turned the heater off and just left the light on. The cooler part is 75ish. Maybe a little lower at 70. 

I tried the baby food soak with gerber carrots once. I was not sure if I was using too much water with the baby food. What would you say is a good water - baby food ratio? Or should I just put him in the food? 

Honestly I don't know how old he is. When I look at pics of Younger Russians my Toby looks much older. When I adopted him two and a half years ago the family I got him from thought he was 10-15 years old. Also, when I first got him I put some pics of him online and people commented and thought he was between 25-35 based on his shell. So I really do not know. My guess is that he is definitely not a young tort. 

Sorry for my long winded update


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## Watsonpartyof4 (Jul 22, 2012)

Sending healing thoughts to you and your tort. I hope he gets better soon. 

Let us know how he is doing


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## Tom (Jul 22, 2012)

I'm surprised that it tok 38 posts for someone to finally ask how your tortoise is being housed...

What heating and lighting equipment are you using? Are you using one of those coil type UV bulbs? How often would you say that he goes outside? Where in the country are you?

Your vet is treating symptoms, but does not appear to be doing anything to determine the CAUSE. Fix what's causing this problem and you might also fix the symptoms. He's not eating for a reason...

Hoping for the best for you.


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## DeeCee (Jul 23, 2012)

Toby is eating again!!!! It's the cutest thing I've ever seen. He hasn't eaten in so long I forgot how cute it is. This is the first time he has eaten on his own since he was force fed on Friday. I will update again tomorrow to see if it continues. I have been continuing with the soaks. I did a baby food soak yesterday, not sure if that also helped.


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## Laurie (Jul 23, 2012)

Great news!


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## ascott (Jul 23, 2012)

AWESOME! Everything helps and matters.....yeahhhhhhhhh


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## CLMoss (Jul 23, 2012)

Glad to hear that he is feeling well.


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## turtlelady80 (Jul 24, 2012)

Awesome!!!!! Soooo happy to hear that he's eating!! Great job!!! Must be extremely stressful. Now you can breathe a little Keep up the good work and care.


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## Watsonpartyof4 (Jul 24, 2012)

WTG!! So glad he is eating! I am sending postive healing energy to you both! I hope is continues! How is his swelling?


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## mainey34 (Jul 24, 2012)

Its unfortunate that vets always want to give torts fit A shots. I had eastern box turtles years ago. One got very sick. I trusted this vet and he gave vit. A and D. I do know now that if any vet wants to give my tort a vit. A shot I'm going to refuse and run. So sorry your tort is sick. I hope things work out.


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