# Butter worms (Trevo worms)



## Chewbecca (Jul 3, 2009)

I'm considering using these as part of Stagger's protein source once it's time to give him protein (two weeks from now). He's an RFT before anyone may decide to get on me about giving him animal protein.

Here's the nutritional information for them:
Nutritional Information
Moisture 58.54
Ash 1.04
Protein 16.20
Fat 5.21
Calories/Fat 87.73
Calcium (ml/100 grs) 42.90*


But I'm unsure if the protein is high enough for him?
The calcium looks GREAT, but what about the protein?
I know that for my lizards, these would be awesome.
But I'm not sure about RFTs.
Opinions on the protein?


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 3, 2009)

The cat food Terry recommends on Redfoots.com has 34%. I don't know the answer but am curious. I can see how you want what he needs protein wise for a minimal amount of calories, since I'm sure the worms are a lot higher calorie than greens. I know lots of other people use these for boxies and such.


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## Chewbecca (Jul 3, 2009)

Thanks!
Chances are, I'm probably going to stick with the cat/dog food for him.
But Terry had told me the occasional live worm/bug/whatever wouldn't hurt him.
I know that others feed their RFTs the occasional slugs or worms.
But now I'm reading that they are Irradiated. And my bug supplier for my geckos told me NOT to feed them because of that.

I don't know what's so bad about it, though, since for one thing others feed them to their geckos, turtles, beardies, and other reptiles. And for another, people food is irradiated as well.

Can someone tell me why that's so bad?
Am I missing the deadly effect of irradiating food for a reptile?
Does it/can it kill them?


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## Candy (Jul 3, 2009)

I feed Dale elk meat ever since I read in Mike Pingleton's book that they feed in the wild on deer carcass. He loves it. He loves it when it's meat protein day. He wouldn't eat the cat food for me. I would prefer to feed Dale what is not man made. I don't like foods that have preservatives and processing. I hear a lot of people say only to feed organic so it just makes sense to feed them what they would naturally eat in the wild. I'm sure if they could get cat food in the wild they would probably eat it, but I don't think they would find that there. Anyway good luck I'm sure someone else will have an opinion on this subject.


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 3, 2009)

I watched part of a TV show about irradiated food and how it could solve a lot of our problems; from what I got from the show it sounded like it was a good thing to do and there was nothing harmful, but people had a stigma about it. I however would do more research about it before knowingly buying something for me or my tort that had undergone the process as I don't have enough information to make an educated decision. Another topic I would like to hear what everyone else has to say.

Candy-I love your explaination about finding cat food in the wild!


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## Jacqui (Jul 3, 2009)

My memory is old, but I am thinking this was done so the butterworms could not mature/breed. I know I feed them to my turtles, tortoises (Hinges), geckos and beardie.


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## Chewbecca (Jul 3, 2009)

Thanks, but I don't have access to elk meat.

So, you don't eat foods with preservatives and processing?
That's awesome. I don't have a garden or a farm. And "organic" food is quite expensive at the store.

And any cat food or dog food that I feed Stagger will be made with real meat and it'll be something I'd feed my own dog or cat, trust me.

I could buy cans of deer meat or elk meat at the dog food store, I suppose.
I'll have to have a look.



Candy said:


> I feed Dale elk meat ever since I read in Mike Pingleton's book that they feed in the wild on deer carcass. He loves it. He loves it when it's meat protein day. He wouldn't eat the cat food for me. I would prefer to feed Dale what is not man made. I don't like foods that have preservatives and processing. I hear a lot of people say only to feed organic so it just makes sense to feed them what they would naturally eat in the wild. I'm sure if they could get cat food in the wild they would probably eat it, but I don't think they would find that there. Anyway good luck I'm sure someone else will have an opinion on this subject.


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 3, 2009)

My tort eats mostly organic (maybe 1-2 things I will ever buy non organic because I can't find them in organic); he eats better than we do!


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## Candy (Jul 3, 2009)

Chewbecca said:


> Thanks, but I don't have access to elk meat.
> 
> So, you don't eat foods with preservatives and processing?
> That's awesome. I don't have a garden or a farm. And "organic" food is quite expensive at the store.
> ...



You can try a butcher shop for deer meat. I only buy it in a one pound package and then break it up and freeze it. It costs me about 6.95 lb. It lasts for about 2 to 3 months. I've also read on here that people feed chicken and other types of meats, but I haven't tried that yet. I know that people think that organic food is expensive, but when it comes down to it you don't eat as much so it's about the same cost. When you eat preservatives your body craves more food because it's not being satisfied (processing and preservatives take out the nutritional value of the food that your body requires to be healthy), but with organic your body gets the nutritional value so it doesn't crave for more so you don't eat as much (hopefully that explains it). If I bought dog or cat food it would have to be organic because at least that is minimally processed without man made preservatives. Good luck with your little one.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jul 3, 2009)

I feed butterworms to my box turtles because they have such a high calcium content. I also feed them cat food, so maybe I'd do good to get a redfoot...lol


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## Chewbecca (Jul 4, 2009)

Deer meat is not available here. I've already called inquiring about it because I feed my dog a lot of raw meats (especially when I had her on a raw diet, now I just stuff kongs and freeze them).

I do have beef heart, though, frozen in my freezer.


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## Itort (Jul 4, 2009)

The statement about RFs eating carrion is true (as I imagine it is for all torts) but I question how often they have access to carrion. Another factor to keep in mind is this meat is not the same as you would find in grocery or even if you harvested it yourself. The carcass has been visited by numerous other animals from the apex predator (in the case of RFs a jaguar or cougar) on down to the flies and other insects. All the protein that we eat (and buy) is gone and half rotten filled with insect larva. This is what they are eating which brings us back to the tevo worms, fly maggots, beetles, and other inveretebrates.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jul 4, 2009)

Anyone ever try to communicate with Mike Pingleton? Ask him how many of his he's raised from hatchlings.. that grew to be breeders. Ask him how many he has actually hatched and ask him how many of those hatchlings are healthy and have grown to have the appearance of one from the wild.

Go ahead and ask him. Highly unlikely you will ever get a response.. because it's highly likely he has NOT done much or any of the above!

Would it be wise to listen to one of *the* [ if not *the* ] world reknown breeders of exotic turtles and tortoises.. Bill Zovickian - known for his "Radiated" tortoises; which he has worked with and bred since the early '70's. And not so well known for other projects such as Burmese Star.. most of the 'Spider' tortoises.. and others that most of us have seldom heard of because they are so rare in the "pet" trade! And he told me on the phone that he fed his K. erosa ( hinge-back tortoises from the "swamp-lands" of Ghana, Africa ) nightcrawlers and big fat Butterworms! *Of course most of Bill's success came before "organic" 'man-made' high tech hybridization!!! *Oooooops.

A friend of mine asked me about another source of animal protein.. since *plant* protein is TOTALLY different protein.. [ she is a chicken farmer ] - "Try a baby chick and see what happens"! She told me they ate the whole chick!

I can only encourage everyone to know your source. Can they back their claims with years of success and facts?

That was easy.. wasn't it?

Terry K

BTW Chewbe.. remember those "pinkies" - anxious to see how he deals with them - when he gets bigger!



tortoisenerd said:


> The cat food Terry recommends on Redfoots.com has 34%. I don't know the answer but am curious. I can see how you want what he needs protein wise for a minimal amount of calories, since I'm sure the worms are a lot higher calorie than greens. I know lots of other people use these for boxies and such.



Better check your "facts" Kate.. [ 46% ] http://www.proplan.com/dry-cat-food/weight-management-formula/ .. everywhere!

Terry K


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## Chewbecca (Jul 4, 2009)

WOW.
46% is a VERY high protein for a dry food!

ooops, I keep forgetting that we're talking about CAT food, not DOG food.
Cats require higher protein than dogs do. Or at least they do better with higher protein.

Anyway, I notice they don't list the ash content of that food, Terry.
I guess it's a good thing that we wet it down ahead of time (to break up excess ash content of the dry food so that it isn't as harsh on the kidneys).

I'm off to my dog food store next week to see what they have available as far as high protein cat food is concerned.

See, I don't own cats. I wonder if that high of protein is common in ALL cat foods.
My dog's dry kibble only has 36% protein and that's as high as I feel comfortable with feeding her. But she's a dog, not a cat.

AH HA!
I answered my own question!
This is what I'm considering for Stagger in ways of cat food/protein.
I feed the fish version of the dog food to my dog.
This has 50% protein and NO grains. That means all protein is coming from actual meat and not corn or rice or other grain items.
Wellness Grain-Free Feline Diet


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## Redfoot NERD (Jul 4, 2009)

Chewbecca said:


> WOW.
> 46% is a VERY high protein for a dry food!
> 
> ooops, I keep forgetting that we're talking about CAT food, not DOG food.
> ...



I know there is ash in canned cat food.. don't know about dry(?).

What are you talking about dogs and their dry food for?

Look at the ingredients in the products and then forget what the label says it's for.. [ for those that say they never get cat food in the wild ]. I use it for the ingredients and convenience.. remember I'm feeding more than 3 (30)! And I soak it to soften it.. no other reason.

Five years ago I checked the protein, etc. in all commercial foods [ at pet/feed stores ] and at that time the Pro Plan had the highest protein/lowest fat ratio available. I'm not a 'brand' label buyer.

Terry K


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## Chewbecca (Jul 4, 2009)

That food I linked is made by the same company and is the same brand of food that I buy for my DOG.
But the link is to CAT food.

I was talking about dog food because the protein percentage seemed high in cat food, and my dog's food isn't that high. Then I remembered (as I was typing), that cats require more protein from meat than dogs do.

Ash content is the remaining minerals AFTER a dry dog food/kibble is incinerated.
Those remaining minerals can be tough on the kidneys to filter out (been known to cause urinary tract infections in cats AND dogs). If you add water to the dry food, it breaks down those minerals and starts the digesting process of them. Making it MUCH easier for the kidneys to filter out once eaten by a cat or dog.

So adding water to the food before giving it to Stagger would break down the ash content.

I'm not a label buyer, either.
I read ingredients as well. I have to. My dog has food allergies. She cannot eat wheat. Her skin breaks out and she gets lick granulomas. So, I'm used to looking at ingredients.
I used the Wellness as an example food (it's the food I linked to) because I already feed my dog the dog version of that food.
I may walk into my dog food store and find a sample of some OTHER kind of cat food that I may like better.
I have no idea.
But where I buy my food, they do not carry the Pro-Plan Weight management cat food. So, I have to look for other foods.
Plus, I can get samples at the dog food store. So, if he doesn't like something I try to feed him, I can chuck the sample, and try something else.


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## Candy (Jul 4, 2009)

Itort said:


> The statement about RFs eating carrion is true (as I imagine it is for all torts) but I question how often they have access to carrion. Another factor to keep in mind is this meat is not the same as you would find in grocery or even if you harvested it yourself. The carcass has been visited by numerous other animals from the apex predator (in the case of RFs a jaguar or cougar) on down to the flies and other insects. All the protein that we eat (and buy) is gone and half rotten filled with insect larva. This is what they are eating which brings us back to the tevo worms, fly maggots, beetles, and other inveretebrates.



Very good explaination Larry people don't really think through what they really would (or how) they would eat if they were in the wild. I guess their little tummies can deal with a lot of stuff that we don't think about.



Redfoot NERD said:


> Anyone ever try to communicate with Mike Pingleton? Ask him how many of his he's raised from hatchlings.. that grew to be breeders. Ask him how many he has actually hatched and ask him how many of those hatchlings are healthy and have grown to have the appearance of one from the wild.
> 
> Go ahead and ask him. Highly unlikely you will ever get a response.. because it's highly likely he has NOT done much or any of the above!
> 
> ...




Chicken, brewers rice, corn gluten meal, poultry by-product meal, soy protein concentrate, wheat flour, fish meal, dried egg product, soy protein isolate, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), soybean meal, animal liver flavor, salt, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, phosphoric acid, potassium chloride, choline chloride, calcium carbonate, Vitamin E supplement, taurine, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, copper sulfate, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite. 
P-4620 

I don't think you're going to find these products in these forms in nature if this is your argument.

Chewbecca, where do you live?


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## Chewbecca (Jul 4, 2009)

I live in Illinois.

Now, the pro-plan food that Terry linked DOES have chicken as the first ingredient.
When looking at a kibble food ingredient list, the first 4 ingredients are what you REALLY want to look at.
Those are going to be the majority of what makes up the food.
The thing that gets me a tad about that food is the soy protein concentrate.

I guess where I'm going is: the reason for feeding the cat food is because it's a source of the redfoot's required ANIMAL or MEAT protein, right? Or does that matter?

If it does, you want more meat in the food. And less grains. If we want our RFTs to get the majority of their proteins from grains, then shouldn't we just feed them corn or wheat or soy?
But isn't it animal protein/meat that they need?

I have no problems at all feeding Stagger cat food for his protein source.
I don't want to seem argumentative in that sense in this thread at all.

I am just trying to find a different cat food solution because I don't know where to buy pro-plan weight management cat food since they don't sell it where I buy my dog food at.
AND, IF I can get the ok to feed him a different cat food, I'd rather go that route.
I look for ingredients. If it's animal protein they need, I can find more animal protein in a different cat food. I'm also going to look at price vs. ingredients.
If I can buy a cat food with more animal meat in it for less than I would pay for Pro-Plan, then that's what I'd prefer to do.

I'm also going to look at Ash content. For dogs, you want don't want to go over 8% ash content. I am unaware of what you'd want to stay under for cats. And I DEFINITELY do NOT know what that means for tortoises.
But if high ash content is harsh on a dog's and cat's kidneys, I can only imagine what it would do for a tortoise's kidneys.
And while adding water will break down the ash, the less ash in the first place to break down, the better. Also, I look for food companies that care about ash content. Because contrary to new age popular belief, ash content DOES matter.


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## Itort (Jul 4, 2009)

I get my ProPlan at Petco or Petsmart here in Davenport, Ia if that is of any help in your search.


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 4, 2009)

Sorry I got the percentage wrong. I looked up the brand and that's what my Google search came up with. Thanks for the correction!


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## Yvonne G (Jul 4, 2009)

You might be over-looking the Purina Pro Plan because it doesn't come in a bag. Look for a plastic pitcher-like container. Most pet food stores carry Purina products, and the Pro Plan cat food is very common.

Yvonne


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## Chewbecca (Jul 4, 2009)

Do they have samples?

I just hate committing to buying an entire bag only to find out he may not eat it.

Also, I would need the Weight Management cat food.

Thanks, Itort and Yvonne.
The store I buy dog food at is specifically a dog and cat food store.
They're not a Petco or Petsmart.
And they specialize in non-commercial diets as most commercial diets have a ton of fillers in them and other stuff that isn't as healthy for your dog or cat.


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## Candy (Jul 4, 2009)

Interesting about the ash Chewbecca I've got to admit I don't know anything about that, but I will now be researching it as you've intrigued me. I feed my dogs raw food diet (as in chicken backs and turkey necks uncooked). I don't know if this is what you're talking about when your talking about feeding your own dogs raw food diet. I don't think that they have samples of the cat food, but if you do decide to buy it and your tortoise doesn't eat it you can always give it to someone who has a cat so it won't go to waste. I like the way you question what you want instead of just going with the flow. There's a lot of good information on this site, but you have to decide which information is right for you and Stagger Lee.  Great question about the ash and what it might do to a tortoise's kidneys. I wonder if someone could answer that on here? It makes sense that you would question that.

I did want to ask you about the soy protein concentrate what makes you mad about that and why?


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## Chewbecca (Jul 4, 2009)

It doesn't make me mad, really. It concerns me a tad.
It would concern me more if it was in the top 4 ingredients, though.
I would then wonder if the majority of the 46% protein was coming from soybean protein concentrate rather than animal meat.

If I am to feed Stagger Lee a cat food once a week because he needs protein from animal meat, then I wouldn't want the majority of that protein coming from soy bean protein concentrate.

I have no problem feeding cat food. And it's not that I'm questioning Terry's ways of doing things. I follow his routine now for my little guy. I believe he knows exactly what he's talking about when it comes to redfoots.

I'm only questioning the kind cat food, and checking out my options on other cat foods to feed.

I did feed my dog a raw diet made up of meat in the morning with crushed egg shell for calcium with sea kelp and sometimes olive oil. Then at night I'd feed her raw meaty bones. Oh, and I also put high quality fish oil in her morning meal.
I did this for about 6 months with her, until I started noticing I was having to feed her over 3 lbs of meat a day to keep any weight on her. Her hair started thinning, too.
I figured that there is something that is put into kibble that I cannot give her through that diet, that she needs.
So I put her back on a high quality kibble. Within a week I saw a HUGE improvement in my dog. Her hair started to get thicker and healthier looking.

A raw diet works for lots of people's dogs. I would never down it as a way of feeding. But it simply didn't work for MY dog.


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## Candy (Jul 4, 2009)

Chewbecca said:


> It doesn't make me mad, really. It concerns me a tad.
> It would concern me more if it was in the top 4 ingredients, though.
> I would then wonder if the majority of the 46% protein was coming from soybean protein concentrate rather than animal meat.
> 
> ...



Exactly Chewbecca not everything works the same for everybody. That's why you have to decide for yourself and your pet what is best for the both of you (price wise and health wise). It's not just one persons way of doing things there are lots of different ways and to say that you have to go just with one is not true by any means. Thanks for explaining the soy protein I think I know what your talking about and it makes sense. I should think that your pet store could help you find the right protein for your tortoise if you explain it to them. I don't go by the book on feeding Dale. I just kind of make sure he's within his limits of vegetables and fruits and protein, but I'm sure there's days when he gets a little more fruit then he's supposed to and then there's day when he gets more veggies then he's supposed to, but all and all he's looking just like Dale when I got him (except a little bit heavier).  I'm sure in the wild there not on a feeding schedule so I don't frustrate myself over it. I do make sure that most of his stuff is organic though that is important to me. Your going to find what works best for Stagger Lee so don't worry what other people think. You might want to read some of Mike Pingleton or even A.C. Highfield. I have 3 of their books and although one is pretty involved they are worth reading. I even hear that Mike Pingleton has a new book out and I do believe it is on Redfoots. Maybe TerryO will respond I think she's the one who was talking about it recently on here. I don't know if she's read it or not. She's the one who told me about his other book and I did appreciate reading it. By the way what kind of dog do you have? I have a Lab and a pug and between the two of them they eat about two pounds of raw food a day. Our lab also jogs 5 miles a day with my husband (except weekends). One more question... do you live near Chicago Illinois? My son goes to college there at Loyola University (so proud of him).


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## Chewbecca (Jul 5, 2009)

Candy said:


> Exactly Chewbecca not everything works the same for everybody. That's why you have to decide for yourself and your pet what is best for the both of you (price wise and health wise). It's not just one persons way of doing things there are lots of different ways and to say that you have to go just with one is not true by any means. Thanks for explaining the soy protein I think I know what your talking about and it makes sense. I should think that your pet store could help you find the right protein for your tortoise if you explain it to them. I don't go by the book on feeding Dale. I just kind of make sure he's within his limits of vegetables and fruits and protein, but I'm sure there's days when he gets a little more fruit then he's supposed to and then there's day when he gets more veggies then he's supposed to, but all and all he's looking just like Dale when I got him (except a little bit heavier).  I'm sure in the wild there not on a feeding schedule so I don't frustrate myself over it. I do make sure that most of his stuff is organic though that is important to me. Your going to find what works best for Stagger Lee so don't worry what other people think. You might want to read some of Mike Pingleton or even A.C. Highfield. I have 3 of their books and although one is pretty involved they are worth reading. I even hear that Mike Pingleton has a new book out and I do believe it is on Redfoots. Maybe TerryO will respond I think she's the one who was talking about it recently on here. I don't know if she's read it or not. She's the one who told me about his other book and I did appreciate reading it. By the way what kind of dog do you have? I have a Lab and a pug and between the two of them they eat about two pounds of raw food a day. Our lab also jogs 5 miles a day with my husband (except weekends). One more question... do you live near Chicago Illinois? My son goes to college there at Loyola University (so proud of him).




Well, I'm going to follow Terry's guide. It has worked for him for generations of Redfoots, and it's a simple guide.
Stagger is doing great with me following Terry's caresheet.

I may not get the Pro-Plan weight management cat food for him, or I may.
I may toss in some worms occasionally, but even Terry said that is perfectly fine.
Like he said, he uses the cat food because it's what has worked for his tortoises, and he has 30 + tortoises to feed, so it's easier.

I'm still going to use a kibble of sorts (provided that Stagger will eat it), I'm just not sure which kibble I'm going to use.

I bought some freeze-dried crickets today to blend in with my Gargoyle geckos MRP (meal replacement powder diet) because I cannot get him/her to eat live bugs. She should grow faster/bigger using this method.
So, I was thinking that I may try some on Stagger once I can feed him meat protein.
I highly doubt even as an adult he'll be able to catch a live cricket, but maybe he'll eat the freeze-dried ones?
The protein is over 50%, so that should be good. I can toss them around in some calcium which will even out the calciumhosphorus ratio.

Oh, congrats to your son and you! I take it he's in the medical field? Doctor? Researcher?

I have an American Pit Bull Terrier named Ella. My son actually named her Ella Fitzgerald.
We adopted her from a shelter in Chicago in August '06 (ooh, her Gotcha Day is fastly approaching!).
Best dog, EVER.
Here she is in our garage waiting for me to let her out into the yard to go potty:





She loves to "talk smack"






Big smiles after playing outside:






showing off her new collar for me:






I am about 60 miles south of Chicago.


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## Crazy1 (Jul 5, 2009)

Rebecca Ella is beautiful. She does look like she is full of personallity.


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## Candy (Jul 5, 2009)

Ella is beautiful and how lucky she was to have found you. I'm glad you decided to stick to the plan that works for you with Stagger Lee. Actually my son is a Political Science Major and would love to work in Washington D.C. (at the White House if he could). I miss him, but I know they have to grow up and live their own lives. He loves Chicago though. I think he could do without all of the snow, but other than that he's fine with it. Thanks for posting the pictures I always love seeing everyone's pets.


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## Jacqui (Jul 5, 2009)

Chewbecca said:


> [Well, I'm going to follow Terry's guide. It has worked for him for generations of Redfoots, and it's a simple guide.
> Stagger is doing great with me following Terry's caresheet



His care sheets make a good start, but do keep reading what other experts/knowledgeable folks have to offer on care too. It may be a bit harder to find the folks who don't go around blowing their own horns or downing others, but it is well worth it to read their thoughts.



Redfoot NERD said:


> Anyone ever try to communicate with Mike Pingleton? Ask him how many of his he's raised from hatchlings.. that grew to be breeders. Ask him how many he has actually hatched and ask him how many of those hatchlings are healthy and have grown to have the appearance of one from the wild.
> 
> Go ahead and ask him. Highly unlikely you will ever get a response.. because it's highly likely he has NOT done much or any of the above!
> 
> Terry K



I wouldn't blame him for not answering some folks. Believe it or not there are some folks out there who would only be asking him to start flame wars, twist his comments around, try to boast their own self importance, ect.., To me, anybody who takes the time to write a book deserves a pat on the back. 

As to how good his book is, I can't honestly say. I do know it was very much look forward to in the Redfoot community.


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## Mike Pingleton (Jul 6, 2009)

It's unfortunate that you didn't ask those questions of me, Terry, before engaging in open slander and making a fool of yourself. You and I don't know each other, and now we'll probably never have any meaningful dialogue or respect for each other. Way to go, big guy!

Here's some answers to the questions I am 'unlikely to respond to':

I've been keeping and breeding Redfoots since 1997.
I've kept and bred all manner of turtles, lizards, snakes and frogs for over forty years.
I'm not a large-scale breeder of anything, I am a hobbyist with a full-time career outside of herpetoculture. My Redfoot herd (12) is as big as I can comfortably handle.
I have second generation adult Redfoots, have hatched plenty of neonates, and have kept back a few that have nice, smooth shells after several years of growth. I've had my failures along with successes, as most keepers have, and I've learned from them.
I am a Trustee for the World Chelonian Trust and I support the Turtle Survival Alliance.
I spent two years researching and writing The Redfoot Manual in my limited spare time, not to make a buck, but to fill a need (have you read it?)

Concluding that I'm some kind of poser because you don't know me, or because I'm not some big name in your circles, is ridiculous, and sad.

- Mike

Mike Pingleton
www.pingleton.com
[email protected]



Redfoot NERD said:


> Anyone ever try to communicate with Mike Pingleton? Ask him how many of his he's raised from hatchlings.. that grew to be breeders. Ask him how many he has actually hatched and ask him how many of those hatchlings are healthy and have grown to have the appearance of one from the wild.
> 
> Go ahead and ask him. Highly unlikely you will ever get a response.. because it's highly likely he has NOT done much or any of the above!
> 
> ...


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## Candy (Jul 6, 2009)

Wow! Welcome to the forum. I am laughing right now I'm sorry, but it couldn't have been put better from anyone else than you. Well said.


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## Jacqui (Jul 6, 2009)

Candy said:


> Wow! Welcome to the forum. I am laughing right now I'm sorry, but it couldn't have been put better from anyone else than you. Well said.



and you Candy have voiced my thoughts too!

Mike it is certainly a pleasure to have you come in here. I only wished it were for better reasons. I do hope you will continue to come back and share your knowledge with us as time permits you.


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## Chewbecca (Jul 6, 2009)

Well, I ordered some small super worms and some mealies (meal worms) for my geckos.

I think the small supers will be too fast for him, but maybe a mealie two for a snack won't hurt anything.

I'm still considering butter worms, but before I go and spend money on what those cost, I'm going to try other worms on him first.

Now, if I could harmlessly paint them red, I KNOW he'd eat them...


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## Redfoot NERD (Jul 6, 2009)

Mike Pingleton said:


> It's unfortunate that you didn't ask those questions of me, Terry, before engaging in open slander and making a fool of yourself. You and I don't know each other, and now we'll probably never have any meaningful dialogue or respect for each other. Way to go, big guy!
> 
> Here's some answers to the questions I am 'unlikely to respond to':
> 
> ...



Yes Mike you are right.. I relied on what others had said about getting any responses from you. And I relied on what others had said about your history of keeping and breeding redfoots.

I did base the comments on a few years back [ not that many ] when you were on a different forum and as I recall had posted your website(?) talking about your first(?) nesting female and how you 'robbed' the nest of eggs and replaced them with chicken eggs. Do you remember that? I really don't think it was 7-8 years ago.. which is what I would consider it would take to claim having second generation adults. Even tho' my '05 hatchlings are over 7".. I believe it will be another 3-4 years minimum before they will be adults ready to breed.

How is asking anyone if they've ever had responses from you 'open slander'? Apparently you do.. so I now publicly apologize to you Mike Pingleton.

Anyone who has chased 'herps' for 40 years [ I don't dare say how long I have - for fear of being accused of bragging again ] and played with redfoots a year longer than I have.. I would think.. would be happy to respond to anyone asking them about how to care for their redfoot. But none of my peers could get responses from you. I guess we'll never know. And yes it is too bad that there is no way of knowing someones attitude from the written word.. because it's never what we say.. it's how it's taken. And there will always be those that view sharing info as bragging.

You are smart in a number of ways.. by not being "well-known". And by not being visible on forums --- you don't have to listen to false accusations from anyone [ who only claim they are not falsely accusing ].

Why would there be any disrespect? I welcome you to call anytime Mike. 

I welcome any and all on this thread to call.. or email me.. or I'll call you. It's all in my signature.

Terry K


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## Jacqui (Jul 6, 2009)

The color (and smell) is one reason I like the butterworms. Just seems to make them more attractive to all the torts.

So have you tried a nice little earthworm even yet on him? If not, what are ya waiting for? My son loves when I let him dig holes for me...well not love for the actual labor of it, but finding worms. He's always eager to go running off to feed the ones he finds.  Hmmmm, now why is he never so eager to feed them the ones in the frig that I buy? 

One or two of the mealworms or supers won't hurt, but remember to not give many or often. They do have some drawbacks to feeding them. 

I might also not want to do a super for his first bug. The smaller ones don't as much as the bigger ones, but supers do sometimes nip. We want him to only have positive experiences until he is more use to eating his bugs.

Just like with any other part of his diet, remember variety is key.


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## Candy (Jul 6, 2009)

I for one was really hoping that we could get an honest apology and not a back handed one, but I don't know why I expected any different. That's too bad. But all in all great to hear from Mike Pingleton and hopefully he will come back and lend us his experiences and his RESEARCH. I know that Dale's looking very forward to it.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 6, 2009)

Ok, I'm stepping in here as a moderator. This thread is about butter worms. Its not about name calling or who takes better care of red foot tortoises. You've each had your say, and I don't want to hear another word from either of you on this subject. If you want to contact each other off list, that's fine, but here is not the place to have a fight.

Yvonne


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## Jacqui (Jul 6, 2009)

Candy said:


> I for one was really hoping that we could get an honest apology and not a back handed one, but I don't know why I expected any different. That's too bad. But all in all great to hear from Mike Pingleton and hopefully he will come back and lend us his experiences and his RESEARCH. I know that Dale's looking very forward to it.




Mike did indeed in a private PM tell me that he hopes to find time to come back and give us his thoughts and help in future threads. So there you are Candy.


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