# Slow Growth



## Tom (Feb 10, 2011)

Everyone keeps tortoises a little differently. This is in part because we all live in different parts of the country and often have different living situations. Apartment vs. a several acre ranch, for example. Doesn't make one person's way right and another's wrong. Often multiple ways will yield positive results.

On that note, I wish to share my thoughts and experiences with intentionally feeding smaller amounts and skipping occasional days with the intention of growing them slowly. First of all, I'm primarily speaking about "desert" species of tortoises. I have no idea how any of this applies to forest torts or any of the Testudo genus.

I used to advocate this very thing and practiced it for more than a decade with sulcatas, leopards and a few others. The idea was to simulate the less than ideal food supply conditions presumably found in nature. This, in theory, was supposed to help them grow dense healthy bone and help to prevent pyramiding. In fact, what it produced for me was small, stunted, tortoises that still pyramided anyway. My adult male sulcatas will be 13 years old in just a few months and they are 43 and 48 pounds at the last weigh in. This is way below normal. They certainly grew slowly, but I don't think it had any positive effects on their health.

By contrast, I now feed my younger sulcatas, leopards and other species a big pile of stuff each day or let them graze as much as they want in an outdoor pen on warm days. They eat A LOT more than any of my older torts ever did. All of them are growing very smoothly and show every indication of being very healthy. They are all growing at a nice, steady rate that compares more with "normal" for their respective species. I believe a big reason for this is the drastic change in my husbandry style from dry to wet.

My point is that as long as housing conditions are correct, underfeeding serves no useful purpose. It does not make their shells healthier and it does not make them grow smoother. If they are housed and cared for correctly, they grow very healthy and smooth when you let them decide how much they need to eat. Understand, I'm not advocating FAST growth, I'm just saying that its fine to let the little buggers eat. I would make an adjustment if an adult tort were showing signs of obesity or some other problem, but otherwise, I let them eat. In other words, I see no reason to force less than ideal conditions upon them. They can survive less than ideal conditions in nature and in captivity, but why should we force this upon them if they grow in a very healthy way when we provide the right conditions AND an ample supply of the right foods. This is the same reason why so many people keep the babies too dry. They can survive less than ideal most of the time, and we think that its dry where they come from, so we're going to give them less than ideal conditions in captivity too. I know better now. Yes they can SURVIVE less than ideal conditions, including a limited food supply, but why should we intentionally inflict this upon them when they THRIVE in IDEAL conditions, to include an ample supply of appropriate food.

I know what they are capable of surviving. Now I'm in the process of learning how much healthier they are when I provide optimal conditions including an optimal food supply.


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## Az tortoise compound (Feb 10, 2011)

Tom,
Do you think by feeding more often and growing them quickly (maybe I should say "not slowly intentionally") that you have them in fast forward? If they grow quicker, they mature quicker and in turn might have a shorter lifespan? 

I don't know that I actually think that's true, but....I wonder.

I remember the saying, Too much of anything is bad for you.


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## Maggie Cummings (Feb 10, 2011)

My Bob will be 13 this year and he is 85 pounds...right now in Dakar Senegal it is 64 degrees with 77% humidity. I have never seen it less than 70% humidity...so they don't come from a dry climate...

I think you have too much time on your hands...from looking at TFO...


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## Madkins007 (Feb 10, 2011)

I don't have anywhere near the experience you have, and I don't disagree with anything you said.

My only real thought about it is that I am less concerned with volume of food- all you can eat vs. limiting food- as much as it is 'are we feeding the right stuff in this early and probably crucial stage'? IF bone density is an issue, are we feeding what the young tortoise needs to build strong bones? 

You mentioned small hatchlings with limited diet and deformities- I would have to assume they lacked key nutrients that caused on-going problems, which brings up the possibility that the ratios or nutrient make up of the diet may have been an issue as much as the limited amount of food.

I don't have any answers here, which I know is not quite fair, but this whole subject bugs me as much as it does you.


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## Tom (Feb 10, 2011)

Az tortoise compound said:


> Tom,
> Do you think by feeding more often and growing them quickly (maybe I should say "not slowly intentionally") that you have them in fast forward? If they grow quicker, they mature quicker and in turn might have a shorter lifespan?



Well no one will have the answer to this for at least a couple hundred years, but in my opinion, based on my experiences so far in this lifetime, no, I don't think it puts them into a "fast forward" mode.

There are optimal conditions in which an animal thrives and there are less than optimal conditions in which they merely survive while they wait for optimal conditions to return. I don't think thriving in optimal conditions is ever bad, and I don't think it "accelerates" anything, other than their health maybe.

The problem here, and the reason this subject is so debatable, is that there is tremendous room for argument about what is optimal for any given species at any given stage in their life span. Optimal conditions for a hatchling sulcata might not be the best thing for a large adult male sulcata. I'm anticipating the question about whether hibernation should be skipped in favor of "optimal conditions" for certain species. I say no. Hibernation is (at least in my mind) an essential part of "optimal" for those species that do it naturally.




Madkins007 said:


> I don't have anywhere near the experience you have, and I don't disagree with anything you said.
> 
> My only real thought about it is that I am less concerned with volume of food- all you can eat vs. limiting food- as much as it is 'are we feeding the right stuff in this early and probably crucial stage'? IF bone density is an issue, are we feeding what the young tortoise needs to build strong bones?
> 
> ...



Good points Mark. It really does bug me too. I feel a tremendous amount of guilt over my past ignorant mistakes. I feel much better about the way I am handling things now. Last May's baby sulcatas are still a tremendous source of joy and happiness for me. Watching them thrive and prosper under my new care techniques gives me great joy.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Feb 15, 2011)

My thinking is that if a tortoise happens to be in a place where he/she finds optimal food supplies, and lots of it, while he/she will grow larger/mature in a somewhat shorter period of time, I don't believe that it'll shorten their lives and have never found any studies conclusively indicating otherwise.


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## Madkins007 (Feb 15, 2011)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> My thinking is that if a tortoise happens to be in a place where he/she finds optimal food supplies, and lots of it, while he/she will grow larger/mature in a somewhat shorter period of time, I don't believe that it'll shorten their lives and have never found any studies conclusively indicating otherwise.



The flip side of that is that places with better food supplies also usually have more competition with more aggressive species. Tortoises are generally found in places where the food is of rather low quality or quantity.

Longevity studies for how things affect tortoises over time are hard to come by- who's going to fund a study of hundreds of torts over 30-50 years nowadays? A lot of the published studies extrapolate from other animals, which makes it difficult to be conclusive. However, depending on HOW you force the growth, you get poor skeletal development, liver or kidney damage, reduced life spans, and more in many other species.


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## Tom (Feb 15, 2011)

Mark, Interesting that you chose to use the phrase "force the growth". In keeping with my over all opinion on this topic, I would have used the phrase "let them grow" or "allow them to prosper" or "let them choose their own growth rate by consuming the amount of food they want" or simply "provide them with optimal conditions.

I just don't see anything "forced" about allowing them to graze "naturally" in large outdoor pens all day.

I'd like to re-emphasize, that I strongly suspect that this might be different for redfoots than it is for "desert" types.

And I 100% agree with you about the necessity of long term studies. This is a growing source of frustration for me. The work we are doing right now, and the notes we all share here on TFO will be pivotal in 20-30 years. I think the birth of these sort of forums will mark an important time in history when large numbers of people like us started comparing notes and figuring these things out.


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## onarock (Feb 15, 2011)

I hear the term forced growth and I think Foie Gras or Lebron James. Ive been thinking about this quite a bit lately and I have to agree with allowing the animal to feed as much as it wants as long as the keeper is providing a healthy, balanced diet. I think the term "optimal condition" as a requirment to allowing your tortoise to feed freely is a bit selfish. A hungry tortoises is going to eat regardles of the conditions and the "otimal condition" phrase is only attached to satisfy the keepers needs asthetically. It's becoming more apparent that some keepers view a tortoises shell as it's main health indicator or would rather put the asthetic value of husbandry above all other and to me thats not correct

As some of you know I keep my tortoises outside year round. I allow them to graze at will 365 days a year. And, I've learned a few things while observing them. I've noticed that they will eat throught a variety of conditions both favorable and not so favorable (as defined by some in threads on this forum). But, the one condition that I have noticed them not eating in is the mid day sun. None of my tortoises like the mid day heat and where I live the mid day heat is usually around 88. They would rather spend that part of the day in the bushes or tall grass.


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## Tom (Feb 15, 2011)

When I use the term "optimal conditions", I'm referring to the best possible temps, humidity, supplements, diet quantity and variety, hydration level, security, housing, etc... for that species at that stage in its life-cycle. It has nothing to do with aesthetics. It has everything to do with proper husbandry techniques and long term health.

My torts graze and eat in the middle of the day even when its over 100 here. They don't seem to be bothered by the heat in the least. I'm referring to my adult sulcatas here. All my other ones are just babies right now.


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## Balboa (Feb 16, 2011)

I tend to agree with you on most points Tom, although a certain fellow who no longer posts here has me fairly convinced hibernation is not necessary either. Time will tell on all accounts.

I think the crux of his argument is similar to your own, why force non-ideal conditions on an animal. Hibernation is a response undertaken by the animal in nature to survive lethal conditions. (Temps too cold and no longer any food to eat). Given the choice the tortoise will not hibernate, if they can keep warm and find food, they'll just keep eating and growing like normal.

Possibly a better way to look at may be considering seasons. If you believe in providing natural seasons to your tortoise (for which good arguments can be made), you need to consider all elements of that season. Food will tend to be scarce in the hottest and coldest times, plentiful during the remaining times.

Spring= Warm, Humid, Lots of food
Summer= Hot, Dry, little food
Fall= Warm, Humid lots of food
Winter= Cool, Dry, little food etc

Of course modified to match species, some will have hot, humid, plentiful summers, etc...

In other words, all parameters must line up for the season you are trying to simulate. Personally, I think its a safer, easier bet to manage a perpetual springtime. Get things wrong during survival states and animals die.


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## Madkins007 (Feb 16, 2011)

I will admit that the term 'forced' in reference to growth was not the best choice. 

If we were letting our torts freely graze in a large outdoor pen with appropriate food options that replicated the native diet, then there is no reason to limit intake, nor to offer too much more in the way of supplements. I would in no way consider this inappropriate.

However, when we are feeding indoors, or in an outdoor pen without natural graze, then the foods we offer will affect growth patterns. By offering too much of the wrong kinds of foods, I would suggest we are, at least to a small extent, 'forcing' the growth.

Part of this is the tortoise's innate dietary intelligence. If I could toss in a handful of varied foods and trust the tortoise to eat only the good, healthy stuff in the pile, and only in the amounts it needs- we would not be having this discussion.

I think the simple truth is that if we feed our babies junk food, we get junk growth- stunted, overgrown, pyramided, soft, deformed, weak... whatever.

So the question in my mind, again, is what is the Magic Baby Tortoise Miracle Diet? is there something we can do to consistently get even well-spaced growth rings, no pyramiding, no beak or shell edge overgrowth, good droppings, good weight, etc.?

Most of these animals come from large enough ranges that the answer probably is not something like "always offer 85f with 74.5% humidity", or "feed this exact ratio of these five foods". It is probably going to be something more like Balboa's earlier thoughts of feeding lots of bugs and worms in the first several months, or an unusually high need for Vitamin E (something else Balboa mentioned in researching some food sources). 

I know I am starting to wander a bit off topic, but have we ever stopped to REALLY think about the fact that in MOST animals, the babies, hatchlings, neonates, etc. eat a very different diet than the even slightly older animal does? With our torts, we are feeding almost the exact same diet for their whole life. The more I think about this, the odder it seems.


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## onarock (Feb 16, 2011)

Good points Mark. I have thought about this as well. I wrote somewhere on here about a hatchling actually going through some sort of postnatal developmental stage where they have different requirments both nutritionally and asthetically compared to their adult counterparts. Don't know how long that development lasts or if there is a mechanism that tells it it's now time to seek different conditions more suited for adults. I also think that a hatchlings resemblance to adults may have played a part on what we think their requirments should be.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Feb 18, 2011)

We allow our holdbacks to graze at will on natural vegitation, including cactus pads and are in full sunshine with no supplements at all. Today, we visited a friend who keeps a large amount of aldabras and has nine of our hatchlings from 2008. We have two holdbacks from the same year. I was amazed at how much bigger and heavier his nine were compared to the two we keep. All are in Florida, within a 60 mile range, and his were at least twice as big as ours. He keeps them almost the same, other than he supplements with other various foods and chow. His had a distinct growth pattern and was not the same as ours. I can not post pictures out of respect, but there is an obvious growth difference of the shells. I have always thought is was important to look at the natural environment and what food is available it that natural area of where that species is from. We feel, based on many years of observations that part of our breeding success is in our diet choices for our colony.


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