# Tortoise died



## Anyfoot (Jun 23, 2016)

Well yesterday ended up a s**t day.
About 10pm a couple of my adult homeana were out looking for food. So a put a few slugs in. Both started devouring as usual, but one kept farting a lot. After she had eaten a slug she started to move her head from side to side as though she was trying to get the slug slime off her beak, occasionally she lifted her head with mouth wide open, also lifting one front leg extremely high, all this time there was a constant farting going on followed by a runny poop. Panic kicked in for me so I got her out of the enclosure, inspected her, it was obvious she was in distress. I looked down her throat, nothing, although I'm not sure if the tongue looked bigger than usual. I put her in a warm bath for a while(still farting all this time) then had another inspection. At one point it looked like there was a bulge in her throat. She seemed to calm slightly. So I put her in the enclosure on her own(kept the others away from her altogether). She headed straight for one of the hides(very unusual for her). I left her be, every now and then I touched a back leg to see if there was a reaction, and there was. This morning I checked on her 1st thing and I think she died. 
I've not got a clue why.

This girl was always in the water dishes, for the last week or so she stopped sitting in the water(just something I noticed that was a change from the norm) also I've fed them Rocket for the 1st time over the last couple of days. 
These are photos 10hrs after I found her this morning. Still lump and bright eyed.

Living in hope but fear the worst.

How do I go about finding out what the cause was. I mean is there a definite way of medically finding out.


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## dmmj (Jun 23, 2016)

a beautiful animal the only way to find out for sure would be a necropsy. an autopsy would be superficial at best


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## Tom (Jun 23, 2016)

You need an experienced tortoise vet to do a necropsy. We have a few universities over here that specialize in this sort of thing that we can send them off to. This is the only way to find out what really happened and if your other tortoises are at risk.

Don't freeze the body. Keep it in the fridge. Freezing destroys cell membranes and makes some of the tests impossible.


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## Anyfoot (Jun 23, 2016)

I'll phone the best vet I know of and see where to go with it. Thanks.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jun 23, 2016)

dmmj said:


> a beautiful animal the only way to find out for sure would be a necropsy. an autopsy would be superficial at best


That's not what those words mean. I agree a tragic loss. That is the burden of establishing species into captivity, some emotional, some monetary. That's why captive bred should always be some factor higher in cost than wild caught. When knowledgeable people like Anyfoot take on this kind of task, they are really going to an effort that is difficult in many ways.

It would be great to suggest a definitive cause is likely to be found. Causes of death are often hidden or multi fold. Observation and interpretation are tricky things for most vets. Tom's suggestion of a Uni is good in that actual pathologists would likely be involved.


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## Pearly (Jun 23, 2016)

Oh Craig, I'm so sorry... She is beautiful! But wait! Don't let anyone cut her open or bury. Remember Ed's Bertha? You never know. In humans the eye gets dull looking few hrs after death so maybe her "bright eyeness" is a good sign... Hang in there my friend


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## dmmj (Jun 23, 2016)

Tom said:


> You need an experienced tortoise vet to do a necropsy. We have a few universities over here that specialize in this sort of thing that we can send them off to. This is the only way to find out what really happened and if your other tortoises are at risk.
> 
> Don't freeze the body. Keep it in the fridge. Freezing destroys cell membranes and makes some of the tests impossible.


 I learned that lesson of not freezing a long time ago


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## Anyfoot (Jun 23, 2016)

Just got off the phone to the vets, and basically a autopsy can be done if sent off to the labs for a detailed examination, but a definitive answer is not guaranteed, especially in tortoises.
Apparenty a necropsy is just not available on a pet Tortoise over here.


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## juli11 (Jun 23, 2016)

Do I understand it right? You feed a slug and she became strange and die?


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## ZEROPILOT (Jun 23, 2016)

I'd wait 24 hours.
Bertha didn't respond to having her eyes poked! She was DEAD. ..Then came out of "it" the next day.
I'm very sorry to hear about this.
If she is indeed dead, I hope it was a freak accident.


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## Anyfoot (Jun 23, 2016)

juli11 said:


> Do I understand it right? You feed a slug and she became strange and die?


It is a possibility this happened. 

But there are other things before this i noticed that are strange. 

She's been out of the water for about a week which is unusual. 
She had gas/farting. 
We found a runny poop in the enclosure a few days ago. 
I fed rocket for the first time(unlikely this).


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## Pearly (Jun 23, 2016)

It sounds like something was wrong with her gut, with all that gas and runny poo. But again, don't send her off for testing just yet. If her sclera (the eye membeane) continues to be clear and bright I think there is a good chance she may come back like Bertha did


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## TammyJ (Jun 23, 2016)

What is "rocket"?

Maybe an XRay would show if she had a blockage or twisted gut. And please be certain that she is dead. Turtles I know can sometimes "resurrect" themselves after days of seeming to be dead!

So sorry this happened.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jun 23, 2016)

Rocket is a type of lettuce?


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## Anyfoot (Jun 23, 2016)

I've always struggled to get them to est greens. Occasionally they eat kale, I discovered this week someone was eating the rocket. So kept putting it in. 
The high protein intake is always on my mind regarding. However I think this species does eat higher protein levels than the norm Tortoise. I would have liked to have found that out through tests. 
Another point to consider is, 4 of these torts came to me in bad(ish) condition. Well I thought they did. They had toenails missing, overgrown beaks and were laying long thin eggs. All were kept in a 2×4ft viv for 10yrs. 
So that ad always been on my mind. This particular tort has never acted the same as the other 3 or the 2 I got off flintus. They like water, but 22hrs a day seems much. Maybe I should have had her checked out months ago. I've had them about 16months now. 
The mind thinks up all sorts after the occasion. 
Emotions, yeah. Gutted is the word. But I've not learnt anything from it. Doubts kick in. 
Life goes on. 
It will happen again, I have 2 reds that I don't expect to live long life's after there first care. Positive thought, this girl left me 3 hatchlings.


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## dmmj (Jun 23, 2016)

are the others acting weird?


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## Pearly (Jun 23, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> I've always struggled to get them to est greens. Occasionally they eat kale, I discovered this week someone was eating the rocket. So kept putting it in.
> The high protein intake is always on my mind regarding. However I think this species does eat higher protein levels than the norm Tortoise. I would have liked to have found that out through tests.
> Another point to consider is, 4 of these torts came to me in bad(ish) condition. Well I thought they did. They had toenails missing, overgrown beaks and were laying long thin eggs. All were kept in a 2×4ft viv for 10yrs.
> So that ad always been on my mind. This particular tort has never acted the same as the other 3 or the 2 I got off flintus. They like water, but 22hrs a day seems much. Maybe I should have had her checked out months ago. I've had them about 16months now.
> ...


Don't despair. Do what you can now. Keep her warm, dark, quiet, see if she comes out of it. Or if her eyes start becoming dull looking if her color changes in any way, and any discharge starts coming out of her body orifices. I did want to explore more what you have said about the greens though. How about cactus? Do they eat it?


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## Anyfoot (Jun 23, 2016)

dmmj said:


> are the others acting weird?


Nope, carrying on as normal.


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## Anyfoot (Jun 23, 2016)

Pearly said:


> Don't despair. Do what you can now. Keep her warm, dark, quiet, see if she comes out of it. Or if her eyes start becoming dull looking if her color changes in any way, and any discharge starts coming out of her body orifices. I did want to explore more what you have said about the greens though. How about cactus? Do they eat it?


 Tried it. Nope.


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## Pearly (Jun 23, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> Tried it. Nope.


Did you see how I fed my babies? Chopping&mixing everything, I often put tiny bits of some treat type of stuff on top just to spark their interest. Once they take few bites, they typically keep going


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## Pearly (Jun 23, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> Just got off the phone to the vets, and basically a autopsy can be done if sent off to the labs for a detailed examination, but a definitive answer is not guaranteed, especially in tortoises.
> Apparenty a necropsy is just not available on a pet Tortoise over here.


So they CAN NOT dissect the dead tortoise for the visual and tissue analysis?


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## Anyfoot (Jun 23, 2016)

Pearly said:


> Did you see how I fed my babies? Chopping&mixing everything, I often put tiny bits of some treat type of stuff on top just to spark their interest. Once they take few bites, they typically keep going


 I've tried all that, I out and out starved them for weeks a while back, they just went dormant.


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## tortadise (Jun 23, 2016)

juli11 said:


> Do I understand it right? You feed a slug and she became strange and die?


This is my main quandary. We're the slugs wild collected? I would for sure get a toxicology and histipath on the liver and internal organs if possible, that's quite a rapid decline to expire so quickly. I'd speculate the slug had something to do with it.


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## Pearly (Jun 23, 2016)

I don't ever starve my picky eaters, as this becomes just power struggle and I hate it. Same thing with my kids. They are horrible eaters! All 3 of them!!! So I'm used to dealing with this crap. I make sure there is a bit of what they love mixed into their food and a bit of it on top just to get them to start eating. Sometimes they'll devour, sometimes they eat less, but I have stopped losing sleep over it. My job is to put good nutricious food in front of everybody and their job is to eat it. They can't do my job for me, nor can I do theirs for them, so I have decided to just do my job to the best of my ability and let go of trying to control theirs


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## Anyfoot (Jun 23, 2016)

Pearly said:


> So they CAN NOT dissect the dead tortoise for the visual and tissue analysis?


No. Or maybe nobody wants too.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jun 23, 2016)

People: Autopsy is when the investigator is looking at the pathology of a dead animal that is the same species. Necropsy is when the investigator is looking at the pathology of a different species. The procedures are the same. The different words refer to who is doing the investigation relative to what animal is being looked at. So, if one tortoise tried to determine the death of another tortoise of the same species (crazy) that would be an autopsy. If a tortoise did the same procedure on another species of tortoise or a person, that would be a necrospy. They are situational terms.

Any vet worth the paper their degree is printed on should be able to do a gross examination, that is - open the animal and survey all the anatomy for aberrant appearance. Simple things like are their large parasites in the lungs and intestine. Do the tissue colors appear normal, is the liver to large to small (can be done by weight and use a look up table even if the vet does not have specific knowledge). Is there an intestinal blockage etc. If a vet can't do that, I would ask how many boxes of cracker jacks did it take to get your degree.

A better vet would take tissue samples and fix them in a few different fixatives, then post them to an actual pathologist along with the result of the gross examination and images taken during the gross examination. 

The really complicated stuff is done with those tissue samples, which may or may not degrade despite appropriate post death treatment are looked at for the result of a disease, most likely not the direct observation of the disease organism. That would be an interpretative determination and based on the pathologist doing the observing could be really good, very near as solid as observing the actual potential disease organism. Oddly even if a disease organism is directly observed that does not conclusively suggest a cause of death.


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## Anyfoot (Jun 23, 2016)

tortadise said:


> This is my main quandary. We're the slugs wild collected? I would for sure get a toxicology and histipath on the liver and internal organs if possible, that's quite a rapid decline to expire so quickly. I'd speculate the slug had something to do with it.


 Wild caught from my garden. This is how I've fed them since Ive had them. Both my next door neighbor's do not use any sort of pestercides either. If the slugs were the culprit I would have had more than one with a problem I would have thought. 
Is it possible a slug could have got stuck starving her of oxygen.


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## Anyfoot (Jun 23, 2016)

Will said:


> People: Autopsy is when the investigator is looking at the pathology of a dead animal that is the same species. Necropsy is when the investigator is looking at the pathology of a different species. The procedures are the same. The different words refer to who is doing the investigation relative to what animal is being looked at. So, if one tortoise tried to determine the death of another tortoise of the same species (crazy) that would be an autopsy. If a tortoise did the same procedure on another species of tortoise or a person, that would be a necrospy. They are situational terms.
> 
> Any vet worth the paper their degree is printed on should be able to do a gross examination, that is - open the animal and survey all the anatomy for aberrant appearance. Simple things like are their large parasites in the lungs and intestine. Do the tissue colors appear normal, is the liver to large to small (can be done by weight and use a look up table even if the vet does not have specific knowledge). Is there an intestinal blockage etc. If a vet can't do that, I would ask how many boxes of cracker jacks did it take to get your degree.
> 
> ...



The so called qualified vet I spoke to referred to it as a 'post mortem'. Is this just an autopsy/necropsy. 
I'll phone a few different vets up tomorrow. 
How long would it take for rigor mortis to set in? Hours/days/weeks.


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## Pearly (Jun 23, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> Wild caught from my garden. This is how I've fed them since Ive had them. Both my next door neighbor's do not use any sort of pestercides either. If the slugs were the culprit I would have had more than one with a problem I would have thought.
> Is it possible a slug could have got stuck starving her of oxygen.


But didn't you say she wasn't acting her norm for past few days? And all that gas?.... I.... just don't know! Doubt it was the choking. I thing that something had been wrong within her gut and her behavior of past few days was reflecting her not feeling well. Then that gas, diarrhea stool, violent body movememt were at the pinnacle of the whole process. Whether it was pain, or pain&nausea&stomach trying to purge itself... I don't know... I may still be too stuck in human medicine. I wish I could help you more. If you have a reason to suspect that her disease process may have had something to do with her diet, focus on modifications in that department for other torts. And don't feel bad! You have been doing a very fine job for your torts. Sometimes s**** just happens! It had nothing to do with you. And NO! I don't thing it was that slug. But do not bury her just yet


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## Pearly (Jun 23, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> The so called qualified vet I spoke to referred to it as a 'post mortem'. Is this just an autopsy/necropsy.
> I'll phone a few different vets up tomorrow.
> How long would it take for rigor mortis to set in? Hours/days/weeks.


@Will explained it very well. Simply put: autopsy=human doing post mortem on human, or autopsy could also be tort doing post mortem on tort (the same species concept) necropsy=human dissecting another species post mortem. Am I saying it right, Will? I also think that any vet would dissect and at least do a visual, GI follow-through if they felt it was worth it. So if you can fork out some substantial cash for "possibility of finding the cause without guarantees" I'm sure there is someone willing to take that on. How about like a vet medicine school? That would be a great lab session for them


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## Rue (Jun 23, 2016)

Very sorry to hear about your animal. Hope you figure it out.

In humans rigour sets in in 3-5 hours (roughly) ....


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jun 23, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> The so called qualified vet I spoke to referred to it as a 'post mortem'. Is this just an autopsy/necropsy.
> I'll phone a few different vets up tomorrow.
> How long would it take for rigor mortis to set in? Hours/days/weeks.




Decomposition begins immediately. So fast, it is not even seconds. The example I have is this.

While at the Philly Zoo we had problems with Bearded Dragons eating fireflies. One died in my hand while we were using a dopler heart monitor, so the exact moment of death was right then and there. Within a minute (a 60 second minute) the vet had opened the lizard up. Already it was becoming a slurry of stuff and differentiating organs was difficult.

The vet explained it like this. There is a tension of fluids that keeps the animal in living homeostasis, once the animal passes it immediately starts to go to mush. All that being said. I have seen and helped with particularly informative necropsies done days later when the body had been stored in a frig.

Yeah post-mortem is the term.


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## Anyfoot (Jun 23, 2016)

@Will this lifted my spirit a bit amongst your good info as usual. 
If a vet can't do that, I would ask how many boxes of cracker jacks did it take to get your degree.


@Pearly. I still don't think the diet is wrong. My 10 hatchlings won't eat greens either. Not weeds/lettuce or rocket. They haven't been spoilt(so to speak) with protein at this age. They didn't know any different when I stuck dandilion/clover/plantain/lettuce or sow thistle in from 1 day old. They just ignored it, well actually they hid under it.


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## crimson_lotus (Jun 23, 2016)

I'm sorry to hear your tortoise died, she was beautiful.


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## christinaland128 (Jun 23, 2016)

Oh no! So sad!


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## leigti (Jun 23, 2016)

I'm sorry to hear that your tortoise died. I would definitely try to get a necropsy done. This might sound stupid but maybe take one of the slugs in also. I had a tortoise die and I did not take it in for necropsy, I have regretted it ever since. It would have been worth the money for possibly knowing for sure what happened.


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## Pearly (Jun 23, 2016)

Hey Craig, I know you'd probably be jumping for joy and posting to share with us if there were any pleasant surprises, but my optimistic nature tells me to always HOPE so I'll ask anyway: are there any changes you can report? Nice ones?...


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## Anyfoot (Jun 24, 2016)

Pearly said:


> Hey Craig, I know you'd probably be jumping for joy and posting to share with us if there were any pleasant surprises, but my optimistic nature tells me to always HOPE so I'll ask anyway: are there any changes you can report? Nice ones?...


Pearls. I'm 99.9% sure she is gone, there is a very small amount of fluid coming from the nostrils and neck is getting stiff. 

One of my males is pacing in and out of her watering bath like a mad man,looks to be sniffing the water, it's wierd. So maybe more to come. Sounds mad and nobody will probably agree, but it looks as if he's looking for her. Either way he's not settled at all. 
Thinking back I've only ever seen this male with her, never the other male. 
Maybe stress levels are getting high. I now have 2 males and 3 females. The ratio is wrong now. 
Testing times ahead I feel. 

I'll get them all outside later in an area of the garden they are not familiar with, just incase there is some reajusting in the pecking order going on. Put them all on an even keel.


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## Anyfoot (Jun 24, 2016)

The mad man male is eating, so that's a good sign I hope.


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## Pearly (Jun 24, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> Pearls. I'm 99.9% sure she is gone, there is a very small amount of fluid coming from the nostrils and neck is getting stiff.
> 
> One of my males is pacing in and out of her watering bath like a mad man,looks to be sniffing the water, it's wierd. So maybe more to come. Sounds mad and nobody will probably agree, but it looks as if he's looking for her. Either way he's not settled at all.
> Thinking back I've only ever seen this male with her, never the other male.
> ...


So sorry... Yes, your gut is probably right. That's why I had asked earlier if any liquid was coming out of her body orifices. Decomposing microbes iliquify some soft tissue and build up gas inside the body. The pressure of that gas build up starts pushing that liquid out after a while. If that's what's going on you should soon start smelling it. If you think you maybe able to find sombody to examine post mortem she'll need to be kept really cool (not frozen). Despite decomposition in progress there should still be enough tissue integrity there for the examiner to determine some obvious causes of her demise. I'm so sorry Craig. And keep an eye on that male. Try to comfort him with good food and things he likes. Also watch him for any signs/symptoms similar to the ones you have just observerved in your female. Just in case


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## Pearly (Jun 24, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> The mad man male is eating, so that's a good sign I hope.


That is great, but keep an eye on him


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## Anyfoot (Jun 24, 2016)

Well that so called vet is sacked. 

I found an exotic vet(only 5miles from home) that did a post mortem. Found a blockage in the esophagus, which is likely the slug. 
However he thinks the liver looked in an unhealthy state, it was totally grey in color. He wasn't sure if this is normal for this species or not. So sent samples of the liver and kidney to the labs for further examination. 
I'm also getting fecal samples for the other 5 adults to be tested.


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## Pearly (Jun 24, 2016)

I don't believe the blockage of the esophagus was the cause of her demise. With her behavior in days prior, I'd be more inclined to think that her GI tract had been shutting down and that slug got lodged there was more a symptom of a greater issue rather the the cause of death in itself. I admit to ignorance in animal medicine, especially reptiles, but gray colored liver just doesn't make sense. In my simplistic reasoning liver among tons of other very complex functions, stores iron, and for that reason alone I don't think it should look gray. I guess you'll be learning some hard science facts in next week or so depending on how "official" that vet doing the post mortem is. That "gray liver" just bothers me. To me any "gray" color in human or animal tissue = dead tissue. Again I maybe wrong. Please share the necropsy findings when available. We are all learning from your painful experience


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## keepergale (Jun 24, 2016)

Sounds like the cause of death was sort of a freak accident. Choking on a normal food item. 
It is common for the pathologists to find many of the animals have multiple issues. They live with many with no apparent symptoms until something kills them. It is rare for a pathologist to find no cause of death but common to find several issues that combined push a animal over the edge.


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## Anyfoot (Jun 24, 2016)

At the end of the day she is dead, no point dwelling. Kicking myself, but whats done is done. If we can all learn something from my bad experience, then thats to the good. 
At the moment I feel it was a freak accident, and there has always been a seperate underlying problem with this tortoise. We will see.
What I want more than anything is confirmation that the high protein diet did not play a part in any health issues with this Tortoise. The vet reckons with tests they can diagnose if diet played a part. He's also pretty sure it didn't in this species because it's an omnivore. 
I'm also hoping I've found myself a decent vet out of all this. He seemed to be asking me the right questions about care, temps/humitiy. Yeah he could have easily read up on this, but he didn't know until 5 minutes before I saw him what species it was. At least asking about humidity proves he's upto speed with basic modern care techniques.


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## Pearly (Jun 24, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> At the end of the day she is dead, no point dwelling. Kicking myself, but whats done is done. If we can all learn something from my bad experience, then thats to the good.
> At the moment I feel it was a freak accident, and there has always been a seperate underlying problem with this tortoise. We will see.
> What I want more than anything is confirmation that the high protein diet did not play a part in any health issues with this Tortoise. The vet reckons with tests they can diagnose if diet played a part. He's also pretty sure it didn't in this species because it's an omnivore.
> I'm also hoping I've found myself a decent vet out of all this. He seemed to be asking me the right questions about care, temps/humitiy. Yeah he could have easily read up on this, but he didn't know until 5 minutes before I saw him what species it was. At least asking about humidity proves he's upto speed with basic modern care techniques.


I just don't want you to beat yourself uup for contributing to her demise through whatever you did or did not do. I will too be very curious about the protein. My RFs (Tucker especially) seem to favor it over any other foods and once living outside more I'll have no control over how often/how much they take in. That does make me nervous and I'll be very curious to hear what your new vet's verdict on that is


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## keepergale (Jun 24, 2016)

I agree that you are blameless in the death of this tortoise.
I have no fear/ issue with high protein tortoise diets. With their selective feeding in the wild I bet many people would be surprised by the protein intake of wild tortoises.


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## Cheryl Hills (Jun 25, 2016)

So sorry you lost your tort.


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## Kori5 (Jun 25, 2016)

So sorry, it sounds like a tragic accident. I really never heard an animal die from an blockage of the esophagus. But I have no medical experience so don't know if it happens. It just sounds scary as their way of eating is so different from ours.


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## Anyfoot (Jul 11, 2016)

Vet just phoned me and the test results showed high fat levels in the liver. Which could point to too much protein.
I explained to him what I feed. He says the damage may well have bin done before or maybe not. I told him the last owner fed cat food and he says to keep away from that and also try feeding more along the lines of insects and not just worms/slugs and snails.


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## Pearly (Jul 11, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> Vet just phoned me and the test results showed high fat levels in the liver. Which could point to too much protein.
> I explained to him what I feed. He says the damage may well have bin done before or maybe not. I told him the last owner fed cat food and he says to keep away from that and also try feeding more along the lines of insects and not just worms/slugs and snails.


why "insects"? And "not just worms/slugs/snails"? My babies eat snails daily outside bcs they are plentiful in my garden.


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## Anyfoot (Jul 11, 2016)

It was a really bad phone line and I couldn't hear half what he said. I'm going to go to the vets and talk face to face soon as I can. 
He doesn't think what I'm feeding is incorrect, but there is high fats, either from previous owner or me. I'm assuming insects are not as high in fats, have you ever seen a fat pillbug or stick insect. Lol. 
Need to find nutrition table on worms and slugs/snails.


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## Anyfoot (Jul 11, 2016)

Also pearly. This tort spent nearly all day in the water bath since I had it, won't be falling for that again. I should have gone to vets 12months ago.


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## Pearly (Jul 11, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> It was a really bad phone line and I couldn't hear half what he said. I'm going to go to the vets and talk face to face soon as I can.
> He doesn't think what I'm feeding is incorrect, but there is high fats, either from previous owner or me. I'm assuming insects are not as high in fats, have you ever seen a fat pillbug or stick insect. Lol.
> Need to find nutrition table on worms and slugs/snails.


I've just never thought about insects/worms in nutritional value categories. I'll be curious to know what you learn. My baby Tucker is especially partial to his protein (shrimp, egg, occ cat food threat, or hunting down snails by bushels every day while outside). He does eat his greens and some fruits, mushrooms, but I really have to watch him. Given free choice he'd go for his meat every time


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## Anyfoot (Jul 11, 2016)

Pearly said:


> I've just never thought about insects/worms in nutritional value categories. I'll be curious to know what you learn. My baby Tucker is especially partial to his protein (shrimp, egg, occ cat food threat, or hunting down snails by bushels every day while outside). He does eat his greens and some fruits, mushrooms, but I really have to watch him. Given free choice he'd go for his meat every time


 What do you think he would be like in the wild in the undergrowth rummaging. 
Worms are on par with eggs so I've read.


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## Ellen & Toby (Jul 11, 2016)

So Sorry you lost your tortoise.


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## Gillian M (Jul 12, 2016)

Oh I'm so sorry to hear that your cute tort is dead.


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## jockma (Jul 13, 2016)

I'm so sorry to hear this. It sounds to me like she had a pre-existing illness that came to a head when she passed away.

I really don't think it was because of you or the diet you fed her. It seems more likely to me that she had been fed an extremely fatty diet for a long time (cat food) and her body could not reverse the damage it had done to her organs, even with the good diet you had been feeding her. It just kept getting worse.


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## Anyfoot (Aug 18, 2016)

Well after the vet advised me to feed more in the way of insects I did a bit of research and it seems that the calcium to phosphorous ratio is not good in insects, however this chart refers to night crawlers as good, can someone confirm to me what is classed as a nightcrawler, are slugs and snails? (Yes I know they dont crawl)
Check the calcium to phosphorous ratio in mealworms and wax worms compared to earthworms.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 18, 2016)

I am very sorry about that pretty tortoise, Craig, but the thread is very interesting and informative.
I always thought that nightcrawler was just another name for earthworm, but clearly I am wrong. 
Again, interesting.


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## Anyfoot (Aug 18, 2016)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> I am very sorry about that pretty tortoise, Craig, but the thread is very interesting and informative.
> I always thought that nightcrawler was just another name for earthworm, but clearly I am wrong.
> Again, interesting.


 Thanks Adam. I'm hoping nightcrawlers means slugs and snails for example.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 18, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> Thanks Adam. I'm hoping nightcrawlers means slugs and snails for example.


Yeah, a general term perhaps.
They're not on the list, so maybe.


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## lisa127 (Aug 18, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> Thanks Adam. I'm hoping nightcrawlers means slugs and snails for example.


No, those are not nightcrawlers. Nightcrawlers are very large and fat earthworms. Pet stores sell them and bait shops sell them. You are correct, nightcrawlers are much healthier than other insects.


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## hingeback (Aug 20, 2016)

I'm very sorry for the both of you.


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