# Sulcata x redfoot hybrid



## naturalman91 (Jun 18, 2016)

let me just start by saying NOT MINE NOR DO I CONDONE THIS my view on the subject is leave them pure

scrolling around earlier on facebook and this was posted on a redfoot page someone claiming it to be a sulcata redfood hybrid i just thought i'd show everyone here, i've seen sulcata leopard hybrids even 1 rare sulcata star hybrid but this is a first.

i'm not even sure i can wrap my head around this it being two vastly different species....


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## motero (Jun 18, 2016)

That fellow is just weird to look at. Defiantly not a normal Red foot. Would have been awesome if it had better care growing up.


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## naturalman91 (Jun 18, 2016)

motero said:


> That fellow is just weird to look at. Defiantly not a normal Red foot. Would have been awesome if it had better care growing up.



yeah i think it's kinda ugly to be honest lol the head almost looks burned i just wanted to show people here i know hybrids are a touchy subject but i don't think many have seen a sulcataxlredfoot


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## dmmj (Jun 18, 2016)

Color Me suspicious I don't see any sulcata in there


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## JoesMum (Jun 18, 2016)

It looks like a pyramidded red foot that's been kept too dry to me.


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## enchilada (Jun 18, 2016)

thats the ugliest red foot i ever see...im pretty sure its not hybrid. that head shape is a typical red foot if you ignore the colors.


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## naturalman91 (Jun 18, 2016)

dmmj said:


> Color Me suspicious I don't see any sulcata in there



its supposedly in a zoo somewhere in china the shells looks similar to a sully's to me but i'll never know for certain


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## Speedy-1 (Jun 19, 2016)

*I am skeptical to say the least .




*


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## CharlieM (Jun 19, 2016)

@cdmay 
Any thoughts?


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## Anyfoot (Jun 19, 2016)

The skin color and forehead do look a bit like a sully to me.


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## Baoh (Jun 19, 2016)

It is exactly what it is described as. A carbonaria X sulcata.

That is the least pretty one I have seen, though. Probably due to the environment it was raised in and perhaps its environment now.

The two I know of stateside are quite attractive, are doing very well, and are owned by a great keeper (the breeder). Their heads, limbs, and skin are as nice as that of pardalis X carbonaria hybrids. The shell is a dead heat between the two parent species involved. There are very few of these "redcatas". Even fewer than the very few "leofoots" that exist. I would like to be able to observe some of my own someday. Doing so with leofoots has been an enjoyable experience.


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## Team Gomberg (Jun 20, 2016)

I see both species in there. Definitely has an interesting look to him...


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## naturalman91 (Jun 20, 2016)

Team Gomberg said:


> I see both species in there. Definitely has an interesting look to him...



he looks like a burned sully to me lol kinda ugly. i'll stick with normal reds and cherries maybe someday a leopard lol


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## BrianWI (Jun 29, 2016)

Love hybrids (I'm a genetics guy). Are there pics around of others?


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## Yvonne G (Jun 29, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> Love hybrids (I'm a genetics guy). Are there pics around of others?



You need to be in touch with @Baoh . I'm pretty sure he's into that too, and has some very pretty animals.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jun 29, 2016)

These images were earlier posted on Facebook from Tsuyoshi Shirawa from zoo in Japan as far as I can tell. The male was the redfoot the female the sulcata.


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## Jacqui (Jul 1, 2016)

Baoh said:


> It is exactly what it is described as. A carbonaria X sulcata.
> 
> That is the least pretty one I have seen, though. Probably due to the environment it was raised in and perhaps its environment now.
> 
> The two I know of stateside are quite attractive, are doing very well, and are owned by a great keeper (the breeder). Their heads, limbs, and skin are as nice as that of pardalis X carbonaria hybrids. The shell is a dead heat between the two parent species involved. There are very few of these "redcatas". Even fewer than the very few "leofoots" that exist. I would like to be able to observe some of my own someday. Doing so with leofoots has been an enjoyable experience.



Baoh in the ones you know of, which species is the female? (Asking about all the different combos)


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## Baoh (Jul 2, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> Love hybrids (I'm a genetics guy). Are there pics around of others?



The public posting has been minimal. Some folks are not keen on negative attention despite the generally positive attention involved.



Jacqui said:


> Baoh in the ones you know of, which species is the female? (Asking about all the different combos)



For all redcatas that I know of personally where I have interacted with the breeder(s), the redfoots were the sires and the sulcatas were the dams.

For all leofoots that I know of, the leopards were the sires and the redfoots were the dams.

For leopcatas, they have been produced from both leopard male x sulcata female and sulcata male x leopard female pairings.

The only real differences in the pairings are two-fold. 1) The mitochondrial lineage will depend on the dam. This means nothing regarding appearance or health. Just ancestry tracking if one wanted to bother using mitochondrial DNA. 2) Shots on goal. A redfoot lays a far smaller number of eggs per season (on average) than a sulcata does. It follows that redfoot male x sulcata female would give one more shots on goal than sulcata male x redfoot female. As shown with the leofoots, though, sometimes the long shots work out. Viability of the eggs vary a great deal. A female could produce a bunch of hybrids one season and never again, some over several seasons, never produce any in the first place, or produce a scant few with a ton of eggs that go nowhere. Depends on the female and whole lot of luck. The hybrids which do hatch are generally pretty robust little things. Defect rates are comparable to single-species pairings. Personalities/temperaments run the range as with any species. 

I think I disabled the @ stuff, by the way.


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## BrianWI (Jul 2, 2016)

Baoh,

I get the negative attention. Some think hybrids interfere with nature or "conservation". Or some weird notion they are ruining the gene pool. That of course puts it underground and into the darkness where it is easier to fool people in some pet circles.

In any case, I would love to see even private photos, I would of course keep anyone's pics in the strictest of confidence.


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## Jacqui (Jul 2, 2016)

I'd love to see photos too, if the breeders would allow you to share (even if they wish their names left out).


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## Dannypharmd86 (Feb 20, 2017)

This just happened to me, my male leopard and female red foot have been together with me since they were hatchlings at least 10 years now. All of the sudden my red foot has laid 10 eggs in two crutches over the past 2 months, I am incubating them and 3 of the 5 from the first clutch look viable so far and the others were laid 4 days ago so I haven't disturbed them yet to candle. I never thought this could happen!


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## MayorMatt (Feb 20, 2017)

I think the head color may be from an overhead light, if you look at the tort in the background of the second picture it appears to have a reddish light shining down on it


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## naturalman91 (Feb 20, 2017)

MayorMatt said:


> I think the head color may be from an overhead light, if you look at the tort in the background of the second picture it appears to have a reddish light shining down on it



Nope its definitely a red foot Sulcata mix 

The one in the background is under a red heating light


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## shellysmom (Feb 25, 2017)

Whoa, seriously weird to see mixed species tortoises. It's creeping me out a little, LOL.


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## motero (Feb 25, 2017)

Dannypharmd86 said:


> This just happened to me, my male leopard and female red foot have been together with me since they were hatchlings at least 10 years now. All of the sudden my red foot has laid 10 eggs in two crutches over the past 2 months, I am incubating them and 3 of the 5 from the first clutch look viable so far and the others were laid 4 days ago so I haven't disturbed them yet to candle. I never thought this could happen!




That is cool, Please keep us posted on the outcome, I would like to see pictures of them as well.


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## skottip (Mar 2, 2017)

Danny


Dannypharmd86 said:


> This just happened to me, my male leopard and female red foot have been together with me since they were hatchlings at least 10 years now. All of the sudden my red foot has laid 10 eggs in two crutches over the past 2 months, I am incubating them and 3 of the 5 from the first clutch look viable so far and the others were laid 4 days ago so I haven't disturbed them yet to candle. I never thought





Dannypharmd86 said:


> This just happened to me, my male leopard and female red foot have been together with me since they were hatchlings at least 10 years now. All of the sudden my red foot has laid 10 eggs in two crutches over the past 2 months, I am incubating them and 3 of the 5 from the first clutch look viable so far and the others were laid 4 days ago so I haven't disturbed them yet to candle. I never thought this could happen!



Danny, I have 3 adult males "reppards" I think that name is cooler by the way. lol If you are incubating them for female I would be interested in a few. Please keep me posted.


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## Dannypharmd86 (May 25, 2017)

Finally happened! We got ourselves a Leopard-foot (aka Reppard), hatched this morning and is going strong hoping for two other in this clutch.


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## counting (May 26, 2017)

Dannypharmd86 said:


> View attachment 208542
> View attachment 208541
> Finally happened! We got ourselves a Leopard-foot (aka Reppard), hatched this morning and is going strong hoping for two other in this clutch.


Cutie. It just looks like a little leopard to me. More pictures are in order I think


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## tortdad (May 26, 2017)

Oh yes, many more pics.


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## Alicia Hoogstra (May 26, 2017)

Soooo cute!


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## Tom (May 26, 2017)

I find it disgusting and appalling. Those adults of different species, different care requirements and different diets should not be living to gather in the first place. Which species is is getting the wrong care or diet?

Its dumb luck that they don't get sick and die from each others diseases and parasites, which is most often the case when people engage in the practice of mixing species. Because a few vocal people have done it and gotten away with it so far, doe not mean the practice should be encouraged or lauded in any way. Everyone gets away with it until they day they don't.

Encouraging this practice with comments of how interesting and cute the babies are is encouraging bad tortoise keeping practices that will harm and kill captive tortoises. We should be working to preserve our precious imported resources, not seeing what sort of weird Frankenstein mixes we can come up with.


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## leigti (May 26, 2017)

If the hybrid is from two totally different species with different care needs, diet environment etc., then how do you raise the baby? And what about when they are an adult? It just seems like mixing such two different species you would end up with problems in their care and their needs later. It's not like mixing different breeds of dogs cats are horses etc. Just my opinion.


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## Markw84 (May 26, 2017)

I have to agree that this is indeed a very undesirable practice. For me, when it comes to chelonians, we are the shepherds of the species. We keep them as pets, or as assurance colonies, to enjoy and better understand the species that are sadly disappearing in the wild. By mixing species, whether intentional or not, we are contributing to the disappearance of that species. Just as with Leopard tortoises now, it becomes harder and harder to find, or even differentiate what exactly we have with many individuals. A "true" South African may soon become almost impossible to find. Where are the true Ethiopian giants, except as diluted intergrades?

We look at most of the pictures, artwork and statues we see of tortoises these days, and many if not most will represent pyramided animals as if that is the only "normal" that is known, since that has become so "normal" in captivity and what most people see as a tortoise. Is that a portent of what is to come as redfoots blend to leopards, or leopards to sulcatas, etc, etc. 

Although this is still rare, it is beginning. It seems innocent and an "interesting abnormality". But I feel we must act now to educate and ensure this practice does not gain any foothold and soon overwhelm our precious tortoise legacy.


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## counting (May 26, 2017)

I hope I wasn't encouraging the practice by commenting it was cute and being curious of what it looks like 

I also agree that torts are not domestic animals and hybridization is rather unethical. It's not what's best for the species as a whole or the individual animals. And I certainly would not support the practice with my money, which is usually what talks in these situations(look at "designer dogs, though the situation is different).

That said, a lack of knoweldge or censorship on topics in my opinion has never, ever kept those things from happening. Education is what prevents things like this from happening, and knowledge. Seeing the result of such partnerships ( look at the subject of this thread to begin with, and obviously unhealthy -imo- looking specimen. ) speaks more to the ethical ramifications to the individual animals than a simple "no" ever could.

Though, it's my honest hope this animal has a suitable life and does not suffer horribly as a result of human error(and the parent animals are separated to prevent this from happening again). It's alive and here. And I don't think pretending it is not does much to prevent the practice or does much to help the welfare of this now existent creature. It's alive, and it certainly isn't the fault of the animal that they alive nor do they need to suffer.

Education on conservation, on proper living conditions of various torts and knowledge about the adverse outcomes and suffering an animal might endure as a result is probably more preventive than pretending it never happens.

I also think that negative attacks do nothing to help the welfare of the animals in this situation. It is more likely to discourage someone from seeking out help to give this animal appropriate care.

But I tend to look from the perspective of individual life, not just what's in the best interests of the species as a whole. Which in the end is greatly more urgent

Not that I'm criticizing anyone who has posted before me. Just sharing my thoughts.


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## leigti (May 26, 2017)

Nobody is denying that it is cute. I think it is all so cute, and interesting. And I would be interested to see how it does over the next few years and held a person decides to care for it. And it is definitely true that it deserves a good life no matter what. I don't think anybody is denying that.


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## counting (May 26, 2017)

leigti said:


> Nobody is denying that it is cute. I think it is all so cute, and interesting. And I would be interested to see how it does over the next few years and held a person decides to care for it. And it is definitely true that it deserves a good life no matter what. I don't think anybody is denying that.



Neither do I

I posted what I posted above with the utmost respect the previous posters. I just don't think that curiosity = encouragement, necessarily.


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## eric joranson (May 26, 2017)

It happens in nature....fin whales will mate with about any cetacean they encounter; producing some very odd looking; yet beautiful off spring There are populations of different species whose territories overlap; soon interbreeding occurs. As in Orioles (the bird) western and eastern populations are now just one species after decades of breeding together. Lack of habitat or low food , pushing populations in to limited areas are major factors that result in inter species copulation. In the big picture; since humans have brought those conditions about; we might be considered responsible for the hybrid species. There are unplanned cross breeding in zoos; (again limited space). So I am not worried that a few backyard Frankensteins are going to pollute the entire gene pool; who knows maybe one of them will make something superior one day. But I wouldn't count on it; mother nature has had alot more experience at it. Rather have them fiddling with captive raised reptiles than say virulent viruses, Heck; if early man hadn't cross bred with Neanderthals; we wouldn't have any politicians.


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## leigti (May 26, 2017)

eric joranson said:


> It happens in nature....fin whales will mate with about any cetacean they encounter; producing some very odd looking; yet beautiful off spring There are populations of different species whose territories overlap; soon interbreeding occurs. As in Orioles (the bird) western and eastern populations are now just one species after decades of breeding together. Lack of habitat or low food , pushing populations in to limited areas are major factors that result in inter species copulation. In the big picture; since humans have brought those conditions about; we might be considered responsible for the hybrid species. There are unplanned cross breeding in zoos; (again limited space). So I am not worried that a few backyard Frankensteins are going to pollute the entire gene pool; who knows maybe one of them will make something superior one day. But I wouldn't count on it; mother nature has had alot more experience at it. Rather have them fiddling with captive raised reptiles than say virulent viruses, Heck; if early man hadn't cross bred with Neanderthals; we wouldn't have any politicians.


Crossbreeding in nature happens between two species that I obviously can live in similar situations. Read Fouts and leopards wouldn't meet in nature as far as I know. I don't think they could survive or thrive in each others environment. And if crossbreeding is happening in zoos, I think the zoo people need to get some bit of a clue on how to keep animal separate from each other.


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