# Researching Sand



## ShirleyTX (Jan 24, 2019)

I'd like to start a discussion about sand. Sand has been a villain in tortoise circles for many years. Please read my whole post with an open mind -- I know a common reaction is "sand is evil". But I'd like to share some research I've done and ask you some questions, if you please. And I would be so happy if no one flames me!

Let me start with questions, and then I will share some thoughts.

1)* Who among us has had one of our OWN reptiles suffer a sand impaction?
*
2)* Was the impacted reptile(s) a tortoise specifically? If not, what was it?
*
3)* Was your impacted reptile exposed to calcium based sand or quartz (silica) based sand?*
If you don't know, just tell me what you know. Was it called play sand? Mason's sand? Did it come from a home improvement store, an educational store, or from an online source? I may be able to make a likely guess.

*Some things I've learned so far:*
-- Calcium sand clumps easily. It forms into a solid in the digestive system.
-- Some reptiles (allegedly) eat sand on purpose. (Some of you are laughing right now because you know your tort will try to eat_ anything_ that doesn't move, LOL.)
-- Much commercially available quartz (silica) sand is man made. It is pulverized rock. It has not spent centuries on a beach or in the desert. The grains are not smooth.
-- Some commercial sand is highly processed, reducing dust and ensuring a uniform size. Cheaper sand is not; it is dusty and has many sizes & shapes of particles in it.

*Maybe you've guessed what I'm thinking: maybe not ALL sand is bad.*
How do we account for the keepers who've had impacted animals and the keepers who've used sand for years with no trouble? Perhaps the highly varied quality of sand accounts for this.

I would welcome ideas about where my logic is weak, and ideas about further research. I've spoken with a geologist that specializes in sand, as well as a herp vet who specialized in tortoises. I will surely appreciate thoughtful comments. Thank you so much.

Shirley

PS Why am I interested in this? I have a 3yo Egyptian tortoise. In the U.S., we mainly use oyster shell as a substrate. But overseas, sand is the primary component. (If anyone is interested in why no one anywhere uses soil mixtures, I can explain that as well.) Anyway, I'm seriously considering switching from shell to sand, so... Trying to be smart about it.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Jan 24, 2019)

Hello Shirley
A few people may get loud but please just except it ,don’t worry about it !
A little about me : I’ve been raising torts for about 19 years , I’ve got 51 adults including Egyptians , and multiple types . And they are like my children ! So more to you if you can’t prove that my torts don’t need sand of any kind ! Why gamble on it ! But thank you for questioning it ! That’s why we are here to pick at each other’s brains and learn as much as we can .


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## ShirleyTX (Jan 24, 2019)

@Grandpa Turtle 144 Hi there! I always see your posts but did not realize you are a fellow Egyptian keeper. (51 adults of many species. Wow. I can barely keep up with one. Do you ever post photos?)

Do you keep your Egyptians indoors or out? Mine has field trips outside but lives inside.

And one more, if you don't mind.... What substrate do your darlings live on?

PS I am hoping that I can move to sand, really. Convincing myself I"m not going to kill her, LOL.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Jan 24, 2019)

As you can see most of my torts live outside in the great AZ weather .


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## wellington (Jan 24, 2019)

@Tom can answer some of these with the impactionshe had seen.
I would question why do you have such a want too use sand? Something that if your wrong about, and your tortoise dies of the sand impaction, there is no going back. 
If your insistent, I would make sure to mix it with dirt not use just sand. Be sure your enclosure is big enough to have a non sand area to feed and water on and that the non sanded area is far away from the sanded area. 
I wouldn't take the risk personally. By the time you know something is wrong with a tortoise, it's very wrong.


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## Tom (Jan 24, 2019)

I've seen multiple cases of leopard geckos, bearded dragons and several species of tortoises. Some were on pet store bought sand, some were on play sand, and some were in whatever sand was already there in the yard.

Your question is a reasonable one and I have no desire to flame anyone. I do, however, have a desire to discourage people from using any kind of sand in their substrate because I've seen first hand the damage it does. Find a tortoise vet near you and ask permission to sit in on just one tortoise impaction surgery. Just one. Take in those sights, sounds and smells... You won't want to use sand anymore after that.


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## ShirleyTX (Jan 24, 2019)

@Grandpa Turtle 144 . Thank you for the photos. Your "kids" are a beautiful bunch, and your enclosures look so comfortable and pretty. Looking at the photos, it seems you've done a wonderful job of giving all of them nice shade. I'm fairly certain I saw one of them smiling.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Jan 24, 2019)

ShirleyTX said:


> @Grandpa Turtle 144 . Thank you for the photos. Your "kids" are a beautiful bunch, and your enclosures look so comfortable and pretty. Looking at the photos, it seems you've done a wonderful job of giving all of them nice shade. I'm fairly certain I saw one of them smiling.



Thank you ! We try [emoji217]


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## ascott (Jan 24, 2019)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> View attachment 263143
> View attachment 263144
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> ...



So beautiful.


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## ascott (Jan 24, 2019)

ShirleyTX said:


> I'd like to start a discussion about sand. Sand has been a villain in tortoise circles for many years. Please read my whole post with an open mind -- I know a common reaction is "sand is evil". But I'd like to share some research I've done and ask you some questions, if you please. And I would be so happy if no one flames me!
> 
> Let me start with questions, and then I will share some thoughts.
> 
> ...



Dealt with a CDT that was solid impacted....a tortoise that was in the dying stages....took several weeks into months to get the sand out....I would not recommend sand. The sand that this tort had impacted was none that was added...just a poor selection in the initial enclosure....did I say I would not recommend sand at all...of course there is going to be some in the enclosure if you are using a natural settting....but realize, a tortoise in the wild reaches up and bites/eats from the growing plant and not off of the ground (cut and presented) in a pile of chopped food...so when the tort in the wild goes through sandy areas...they are not eating from food laying on the surface covered in sand but rather reaches and bites from the plant that may be growing in the sand...big difference...


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## Blackdog1714 (Jan 25, 2019)

Just a question. Does any tortoise naturally live on sand?


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## Toddrickfl1 (Jan 25, 2019)

ascott said:


> Dealt with a CDT that was solid impacted....a tortoise that was in the dying stages....took several weeks into months to get the sand out....I would not recommend sand. The sand that this tort had impacted was none that was added...just a poor selection in the initial enclosure....did I say I would not recommend sand at all...of course there is going to be some in the enclosure if you are using a natural settting....but realize, a tortoise in the wild reaches up and bites/eats from the growing plant and not off of the ground (cut and presented) in a pile of chopped food...so when the tort in the wild goes through sandy areas...they are not eating from food laying on the surface covered in sand but rather reaches and bites from the plant that may be growing in the sand...big difference...


Good point never thought about that


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## ShirleyTX (Jan 26, 2019)

Blackdog1714 said:


> Just a question. Does any tortoise naturally live on sand?



Yes, many tortoises' natural habitat is sand, including the Egyptian tortoise (which is what I keep). The natural habitats of different species vary a great deal in terms of geologic origin, mineral composition, texture, solidity, etc. Mostly when people use sand in an enclosure, they buy "play sand" at a toy store or home improvement store and chuck it in.

What I am trying to determine is: can sand be a safe and beneficial substrate, if properly chosen and deployed. Thank you for your question!


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## ShirleyTX (Jan 26, 2019)

@ascott . Thank you Angela! You are the only person who actually answered my questions with the exact specificity I need. 

It seems to me that it took many years of trial and error before keepers decided on the perfect soil mix for their tortoises. And that "perfect mix" still varies between keepers. Some like coco coir, others swear by top soil, there's the mulch crowd..... There are just as many variations of sand, but we don't talk about those variations. We buy play sand or mason's sand, and that's that.

There is some interesting work being done by European and Libyan & Egyptian keepers, using sand-based substrates. In the case of Libya and Egypt, they are often dealing with wild caught adults. In Europe, captive breeding is becoming more common. Soil and other organic matter is not an option for Egyptian tortoises, so I think some study of sand is worthwhile.

Thanks again!


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## ShirleyTX (Jan 26, 2019)

wellington said:


> @Tom can answer some of these with the impactionshe had seen.
> I would question why do you have such a want too use sand? Something that if your wrong about, and your tortoise dies of the sand impaction, there is no going back.
> If your insistent, I would make sure to mix it with dirt not use just sand. Be sure your enclosure is big enough to have a non sand area to feed and water on and that the non sanded area is far away from the sanded area.
> I wouldn't take the risk personally. By the time you know something is wrong with a tortoise, it's very wrong.



This is the third time I have posted about substrate for my Egyptian tortoise and it is the third time you have objected to what I post. This time, I feel you are implying I am about to kill my tortoise.

So, for the third time, I will explain....

Egyptian tortoises cannot live on organic matter. No soil, coir, mulch. The bits of matter that float about are too large for their delicate nares. Their native land is virtually sterile and their immune systems are weak. Any pathogen, fungus, or mold in the enclosure can quickly become deadly. Therefore, the two recommended substrates for Egyptian tortoises is either oyster shell or sand. Additions to the sand of other non-organic material, such as clay, is sometimes used as well. Organic matter gives their tiny feet little traction, and can adversely impact the development of their legs.

The source of this information includes _to name just a few_:
Posts in the Egyptian tortoise section of this forum
Hermanni Haven (Chris Leone, expert U.S. breeder & published in Reptiles magazine)
Ralph Till (expert U.S. breeder and published in The Batagur)
Arizona Tortoise Compound
Tortoise Supply Company
Frank Indiviglio (published on The Reptile Blog)
(and I think Ed Pirog although I can't find a proper reference at the moment)

The experts above recommend primarily oyster shell with sand as second choice. Currently I use oyster shell. I decided I wanted to find out more about sand which is why I posted my questions. As I've learned more about sand, I believe it is often deployed incorrectly and is not good. What if I could learn how to deploy sand safely? It might help others too. On the flip side, maybe what I will learn is that sand is not a good substrate, no matter how carefully deployed.

I feel I may sound irritated, and I guess I am. But I don't mean to hurt your feelings. I feel like you assume I'm not a knowledgeable keeper. But I am.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Jan 26, 2019)

Me again Shirley
Remember where your at : The TFO isn’t saying your a bad keeper . But there was a person talking about Phx worms and her box turtle and how great they are as food for the box turtle ! And the next person wanted to know if they should start feeding their Leopard tort Phx worms ! So if they say something positive a bout sand every baby tort will start getting sand . We have kids on here from 12-40 years old that say give your Russian torts fruit when we say fruit should be given very rarely . So please relax have fun and enjoy your torts as I do . And continue to learn and teach on the TFO ![emoji217]


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## wellington (Jan 26, 2019)

ShirleyTX said:


> This is the third time I have posted about substrate for my Egyptian tortoise and it is the third time you have objected to what I post. This time, I feel you are implying I am about to kill my tortoise.
> 
> So, for the third time, I will explain....
> 
> ...


Did I misunderstand your original post? You mentioned if I remember correctly as I didn't go back to reread, that you knew about the dangers of sand and you wanted experienced opinions and proof if possible. I alerted Tom as he has seen first hand the damage of sand. I gave my opionion as far as why use it if you don't have too. 
I have found many places that doesn't recommend sand. Also keep in mind that in the wild, they likely are not eating the grasses and weeds in the sandy areas. So yes, they have areas of not just sand. A person keeping one in an indoor enclosure, and using only sand as a substrate, well, increases the likelyhood of ingesting sand and is not really the tortoise would be living in the wild.


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## CandyAss (Jan 26, 2019)

I get where you're coming from Shirley! Whenever I'm told "never do...", I want to know why. I like science-based reasons. I like dialog that expands my understanding of a subject. I'm new to tortoises, so I'm asking a lot of questions. Right now, when I repeatedly hear a "never do...", I'm going to take that advice, but still seek to find the why. I'm new to tortoises - not animal care. 
That being said, I looked up the Regional Studbook for Egyptian Tortoises, and under the husbandry section it recommends soil, sand, or a mixture of both for the substrate, and a minimum enclosure size of 12"×48"×12". Of course, there wasn't an explanation of why, but the list of people and institutions that contributed to the husbandry guidelines is pretty impressive. If you're in Texas, you might be close to a zoo that houses and/or breeds them. Abilene, Dallas, Fort Worth, and Houston Zoos all have them. Zoo Keepers love to answer smart questions and talk about the animals they care for. The only time I ever shut up about birds now is to talk about tortoises!


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## Cheryl Hills (Jan 27, 2019)

CandyAss said:


> I get where you're coming from Shirley! Whenever I'm told "never do...", I want to know why. I like science-based reasons. I like dialog that expands my understanding of a subject. I'm new to tortoises, so I'm asking a lot of questions. Right now, when I repeatedly hear a "never do...", I'm going to take that advice, but still seek to find the why. I'm new to tortoises - not animal care.
> That being said, I looked up the Regional Studbook for Egyptian Tortoises, and under the husbandry section it recommends soil, sand, or a mixture of both for the substrate, and a minimum enclosure size of 12"×48"×12". Of course, there wasn't an explanation of why, but the list of people and institutions that contributed to the husbandry guidelines is pretty impressive. If you're in Texas, you might be close to a zoo that houses and/or breeds them. Abilene, Dallas, Fort Worth, and Houston Zoos all have them. Zoo Keepers love to answer smart questions and talk about the animals they care for. The only time I ever shut up about birds now is to talk about tortoises!


Just a warning, not all zoos raise there animals theright way. They often go by old outdated info especially where tortoises are concerned.


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## CandyAss (Jan 27, 2019)

Cheryl Hills said:


> Just a warning, not all zoos raise there animals theright way. They often go by old outdated info especially where tortoises are concerned.


The Zoos I referenced are all accredited by the Association of Zoos and Aquariums. The vast majority of Zookeepers have a minimum of a bachelor's degree, and many have a masters. Zoos that are accredited by the AZA are required to participate in Species Survival Plans - science based programs that strive to maintain and create populations of animals that are genetically diverse and healthy, often with the goal of, or in support of, reintroduction programs. Most of the large, well known zoos have an entire division dedicated to wildlife conservation through science. 
There are zoos that have failed to advance with the times, but they are pretty easy to spot.


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## ascott (Jan 27, 2019)

CandyAss said:


> The Zoos I referenced are all accredited by the Association of Zoos and Aquariums. The vast majority of Zookeepers have a minimum of a bachelor's degree, and many have a masters. Zoos that are accredited by the AZA are required to participate in Species Survival Plans - science based programs that strive to maintain and create populations of animals that are genetically diverse and healthy, often with the goal of, or in support of, reintroduction programs. Most of the large, well known zoos have an entire division dedicated to wildlife conservation through science.
> There are zoos that have failed to advance with the times, but they are pretty easy to spot.



"failed to advance with the times"

There are some very tried and true methods that still work....the flash of the advance is not always the awesomeness some promote....just my two cents worth


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## CandyAss (Jan 27, 2019)

ascott said:


> "failed to advance with the times"
> 
> There are some very tried and true methods that still work....the flash of the advance is not always the awesomeness some promote....just my two cents worth



"Advance with the times" doesn't mean abandoning tried and true methods. You're describing a fad. Advancement means building on what works, examining what doesn't and trying to figure out why - and then doing something about. 
This is exactly what the OP is trying to do - advance our knowledge and understanding in order to better care for a tortoise species. I think it's a worthwhile endeavor to look more into reasons why some people have had no problems using sand and others have had disastrous results. Is it possible that the culprit could be grain size or shape? Or unnatural feeding method? I don't think it comes down to pure luck. Advances aren't made without questioning the status quo. 
I'll see your two cents and raise you a dollar✌


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## TammyJ (Jan 28, 2019)

Is there an actual, proven benefit to any species of tortoise of having a substrate of sand? Or is the benefit actually perhaps going to be to the owner/keeper as sand is inexpensive and attractive? What good does sand do for the tortoise, especially as a single type of substrate in an indoor enclosure? I can see using it in some areas of natural outdoor spaces along with other substrates like rocks, earth, leaves, mulch, etc. I use a bit of sand mixed with earth in a small area of my outdoor enclosure for my redfoots.


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## ascott (Jan 28, 2019)

CandyAss said:


> "Advance with the times" doesn't mean abandoning tried and true methods. You're describing a fad. Advancement means building on what works, examining what doesn't and trying to figure out why - and then doing something about.
> This is exactly what the OP is trying to do - advance our knowledge and understanding in order to better care for a tortoise species. I think it's a worthwhile endeavor to look more into reasons why some people have had no problems using sand and others have had disastrous results. Is it possible that the culprit could be grain size or shape? Or unnatural feeding method? I don't think it comes down to pure luck. Advances aren't made without questioning the status quo.
> I'll see your two cents and raise you a dollar✌



I don't need your dollar babe.....I said my piece. What one thinks does not work...another finds perfect. There is no way to know why what works for me (in the High Desert, CDT, Redfoot, Red Ear Sliders) may not work for you (where ever you may be) or Joe Blow In the middle of BFEgypt, right? But each sharing what works (old ways and new) gives others an index to pull from.

Oh and since you do not know ME AT ALL....I am the last person to go with the FAD. But thanks for your baseless opinion. Peace out.


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## CandyAss (Jan 29, 2019)

ascott said:


> I don't need your dollar babe.....I said my piece. What one thinks does not work...another finds perfect. There is no way to know why what works for me (in the High Desert, CDT, Redfoot, Red Ear Sliders) may not work for you (where ever you may be) or Joe Blow In the middle of BFEgypt, right? But each sharing what works (old ways and new) gives others an index to pull from.
> 
> Oh and since you do not know ME AT ALL....I am the last person to go with the FAD. But thanks for your baseless opinion. Peace out.


I take it you're not familiar with poker, or the scientific method. Cool, cool.


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## TylerStewart (Jan 29, 2019)

I had a minute and thought I would reply.... We have used sand and partial sand (mixes) more and more, and have not seen any problems from it. There's a few key things to consider, though.... Sand in a natural habitat isn't really being eaten direct off of. The plants that they normally eat are up off the ground to varying degrees. If it's a grass, grass doesn't really grow out of sand, so the grass they'd eat in the wild is growing out of "dirt," not sand. I have seen photos of Egyptians in their natural habitat and they are buried in sand dune sand, just like beach sand. It is 100% sand, at least in that area. Again, they aren't eating wet spring mix off of dry sand (which would invite a lot of sand into their systems).

Obviously every tortoise lives on "dirt" in nature, but natural "dirt" isn't loose like sand in an indoor enclosure would be. Dirt that has been in the weather is usually hard packed and not blowing around unless it has been disturbed. In an indoor setup, because of no weather and a high degree of tortoise activity per square foot, the substrate will generally remain loose instead of firm like it would be in nature. If you dump a bucket of sand in an outdoor enclosure, a month later, it's hardly recognizable as sand (mixes in with dirt, and becomes hard packed).

We got some baby Egyptians that are now almost 2 years old, and I asked the breeder (a less known guy in Southern California) to tell me exactly how he had been raising them so I could duplicate it. He was using a 50-50 mix of coco coir and sand, like a beach sand. We are regulars at the sand dunes so I brought home a bucket and mixed it with coir, and for 2 years they could not have done better (other than the one that flipped over in the water dish and drowned in 1/4" of water - that breeder had a water dish in with his, so I did the same, regrettably). They grew perfectly smooth, shockingly smooth, in an open top, simple tub on this substrate. I kept some moisture in it particularly in the hide area, and this mix remained pretty firm, not soft and mushy like straight sand would be.

We recently redid their enclosure and went to a 1/4" minus DG (decomposed granite) substrate that I really like. It's a crushed rock that starts as small as sand and has been screened through a 1/4" screen, so the largest parts are 1/4" in size. It's commonly used in landscapeing here in Las Vegas, and it's very cheap with many colors available ($20-25 per TON, or about $5 for a 50 pound bag). I threw a few handfuls of crushed oyster shell in there just to have a few bits and pieces of calcium around, and I keep a chunk of two of cuttlebone in there also that slowly shrinks in size. They are fed from a bowl that keeps the substrate out, and we have a shallow water dish in there with a rock layer on the bottom of it that I add a tiny amount of water to almost daily (it dries up daily). I'll still soak them manually, I'm just scared to use a quarter inch of water in bowls anymore, I have had multiple babies drown in water bowls, and they are never that deep.

There is risks to any substrate, but for me and my Egyptians, we are going to try DG for a while.


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## ascott (Jan 30, 2019)

CandyAss said:


> I take it you're not familiar with poker, or the scientific method. Cool, cool.




I am familiar with both, thank you.


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