# CDT (?) Hatchling questions/suggestions



## Hot Wet Sam (Oct 10, 2016)

Hello,

My wife and I have been prepping our backyard (in southern California) to get a tortoise for some time. We recently completed it, but a few nights ago my wife surprised me with this little guy:

http://i.imgur.com/l1UFkXj.jpg

http://imgur.com/liz79qO

http://i.imgur.com/D5b9Pnb.jpg

I believe he is a California Desert Tortoise (please correct me if you think otherwise). I've done tons of research on being a tortoise owner, but I was not expecting a hatchling. I've been researching non-stop to make sure I treat him/her right and provide a good home, but I had a few questions.

First is about pyramiding. I've been reading about possible causes and how to prevent it. It seems humidity is believed to be a large factor in preventing it. However, everything I read regarding this is usually regarding other types of tortoises. Should a desert tortoise also have humidity in its environment?

Here is his habitat: http://i.imgur.com/YRSvglT.jpg

I've read that the coil UVB lights are questionable, so I've already got a replacement UVB bar light and thermometer on the way from Amazon. His substrate is a blend of top soil/play sand. I leveled out his water tray with some stones so he doesn't need to climb to get in the water. The blue walls are angled out to prevent him from flipping himself. He seems to enjoy roaming around, but he gets so dirty and gets the soil/sand on his face a lot. I see him sometimes trying to rub it off with his front legs. When he wades through the water and then back into the soil, he gets a lot of soil in the crevices of his legs. I worry that he might irritate his skin/eyes since he's so young. Am I just being an overprotective daddy? This is just what we put together over the weekend, but look forward to adding to/making changes to his home. Any ideas/suggestions that I should consider?


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## Yvonne G (Oct 10, 2016)

Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

That's a nice habitat and I'll give you a couple suggestions.

Build some sort of framework that will support the lights and a plastic film cover. I'll put up a picture of what I'm talking about at the end of this post, but use your own ingenuity and come up with what works for you.

Next, pat down the substrate with the palm of your hand so it's not so fluffy. If you firm it down, it's not quite so messy. You could also add a layer of small orchid bark over the top of what you already have. The bark isn't nearly as messy.

Your lights need to hang straight down, so a framework is really necessary. Glad to see you've done your homework and are making the necessary changes. Yes, humidity is required for the young desert tortoises too. They don't need as much as a sulcata or leopard, but they do need some and the plastic film will help in that area. 

Here's an example of the framework I'm talking about, but you want something that not only supports the lights, but also the plastic cover:


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## Gillian M (Oct 10, 2016)

A very warm welcome to the forum. 

A _gorgeous _little tort, you have. Take good care of him/her.


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## Tom (Oct 10, 2016)

Hello and welcome.

There is a lot of old, out-dated, misinformation circulating around out in the world, especially for this species. Following the conventional advice of housing them dry, and outdoors all the time, frequently results in their death. I've now raised dozens of CDT hatchlings and the flowing threads will explain what I have found to work the best.

This was typed up and labeled for russians, but I house my CDT babies identically and actually in the same exact enclosures, with disinfection in between species.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/

This one will have some useful tips too:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

I can't see your pics due to weak internet signal where I am, but from the text, I would recommend you get rid of the sand/soil ASAP and replace it with either coco coir or orchid bark. Sand is a very real impaction risk and possible skin and eye irritant, as you've seen already. The problem with soil is that you can't know what composted plant material it is made of. It could be fine or it could be oleander clippings or grass clipping treated with "weed n feed" type chemicals. Plus it turns to mud when wet. Best to use something safer.


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## ascott (Oct 10, 2016)

Hot Wet Sam said:


> Hello,
> 
> My wife and I have been prepping our backyard (in southern California) to get a tortoise for some time. We recently completed it, but a few nights ago my wife surprised me with this little guy:
> 
> ...



That looks like it is the bottom of a rodent enclosure...so there is usually the cage top..do you have that cage top? If you do have the cage top you can cover part of the cage with plastic to offer up some warmth/humidity balance and you can also directly set the light fixtures on the cage top...?


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## Hot Wet Sam (Oct 11, 2016)

ascott said:


> That looks like it is the bottom of a rodent enclosure...so there is usually the cage top..do you have that cage top? If you do have the cage top you can cover part of the cage with plastic to offer up some warmth/humidity balance and you can also directly set the light fixtures on the cage top...?



You are correct, and I do have the top. Utilizing the top and placing lamps directly facing down was originally an idea, but I thought since the cage is so tall that the effect of the lights would be lessened. All of the pictures I see have the lamps hanging fairly low over the table.


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## Hot Wet Sam (Oct 11, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> Hi, and welcome to the Forum!
> 
> That's a nice habitat and I'll give you a couple suggestions.
> 
> ...



Hello Yvonne,

Thank you kindly for the warm welcome and advice. These past few days have been overwhelming with all of the research and trial and error purchases/returns I've had to do. I'll definitely stop by Home Depot on my way home from work today and look for some orchid bark. I'll also pick up some lights that hang straight down. I'm going to try using the top cage part of my enclosure for a frame as another user suggested. My concern is that it might be too high up to make the lights effective.


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## Hot Wet Sam (Oct 11, 2016)

Tom said:


> Hello and welcome.
> 
> There is a lot of old, out-dated, misinformation circulating around out in the world, especially for this species. Following the conventional advice of housing them dry, and outdoors all the time, frequently results in their death. I've now raised dozens of CDT hatchlings and the flowing threads will explain what I have found to work the best.
> 
> ...



Hello Tom,

Wow. That was TONS of useful info. I'm definitely ditching the sand, picking up some coco coir and orchid bark after work today to see how AJ responds. I'll also look for a sandstone flat rock to put by the basking light. As some of the other users suggested, I'm also going to try adding some plastic around a framework to help with humidity. My next project will be setting up a safe place for outside sunning, so thanks in advance for those posts as well.


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## Tom (Oct 11, 2016)

Hot Wet Sam said:


> Hello Tom,
> 
> Wow. That was TONS of useful info. I'm definitely ditching the sand, picking up some coco coir and orchid bark after work today to see how AJ responds. I'll also look for a sandstone flat rock to put by the basking light. As some of the other users suggested, I'm also going to try adding some plastic around a framework to help with humidity. My next project will be setting up a safe place for outside sunning, so thanks in advance for those posts as well.



Here ya go:
Here are three good ways to do it for a baby:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/cheap-easy-simple-sunning-enclosure.14680/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/simple-sunning-enclosure.104351/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...table-but-safe-outdoor-baby-enclosures.30683/

Also, you probably won't find your orchid bark at HD. You'll probably need to go to a garden center. You can buy coco coir in bulk there too.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 11, 2016)

Hot Wet Sam said:


> Hello Yvonne,
> 
> Thank you kindly for the warm welcome and advice. These past few days have been overwhelming with all of the research and trial and error purchases/returns I've had to do. I'll definitely stop by Home Depot on my way home from work today and look for some orchid bark. I'll also pick up some lights that hang straight down. I'm going to try using the top cage part of my enclosure for a frame as another user suggested. My concern is that it might be too high up to make the lights effective.



Most of the lights we buy now a days tell us to mount them no closer than 12" above the substrate. I would amend that to no closer than 12" above the tortoise's back. If your cage top is taller than that, maybe you can hang the light inside the cage??


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## Hot Wet Sam (Oct 11, 2016)

Tom said:


> Here ya go:
> Here are three good ways to do it for a baby:
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/cheap-easy-simple-sunning-enclosure.14680/
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/simple-sunning-enclosure.104351/
> ...



Thanks again. I truly appreciate this!


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## Hot Wet Sam (Oct 11, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> Most of the lights we buy now a days tell us to mount them no closer than 12" above the substrate. I would amend that to no closer than 12" above the tortoise's back. If your cage top is taller than that, maybe you can hang the light inside the cage??



Perfect. I'll measure and figure out the best course of action once I get home and set everything up. Thanks again!


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## ascott (Oct 11, 2016)

Hot Wet Sam said:


> You are correct, and I do have the top. Utilizing the top and placing lamps directly facing down was originally an idea, but I thought since the cage is so tall that the effect of the lights would be lessened. All of the pictures I see have the lamps hanging fairly low over the table.



Oh good...I think you will find the height favorable...also you can add some soil...I like finely processed peat moss..which you can get at lowes..if you do use peat moss please plan to initially moisten the sunstrate...SLOWLY..it will seem like it is never going to absorb the water..but it does...I would add a deep layer of substrate ..then pour warm to hot water into the soil slowly..then walk away for like and hour..then come back and hand pack down the soil to offer up a firm walking surface...some folks like the wood chunky stuff for substrate and swear by it...but it is not a fav to me...the thought of a digging species encountering wood splinters in the eye or nose always concerns me...again, personal preference is all. I would offer up a warm humid hide/area that is accessible day and night but I absolutely would not suggest a complete closed chamber for this species...too wet is not good...as many micro climate areas as possible is good..have fun with it...you will also learn what works for the tort in your care...there is no one size fits all..oh and if you do increasethe depth of the substrate..you may want to line the Iinside perimeter of the cage top ..starting where itmeets up with the bottom..this will hamper any cage climbing...


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## Lemonade (Oct 11, 2016)

Looks like everyone's covered the topic, but I'd like to brag on my little one. He/she is about 6 now, with a totally smooth shell. I have put him outside most of the time, with a grazing diet. I'm sure your's will do great!


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## Hot Wet Sam (Oct 12, 2016)

ascott said:


> Oh good...I think you will find the height favorable...also you can add some soil...I like finely processed peat moss..which you can get at lowes..if you do use peat moss please plan to initially moisten the sunstrate...SLOWLY..it will seem like it is never going to absorb the water..but it does...I would add a deep layer of substrate ..then pour warm to hot water into the soil slowly..then walk away for like and hour..then come back and hand pack down the soil to offer up a firm walking surface...some folks like the wood chunky stuff for substrate and swear by it...but it is not a fav to me...the thought of a digging species encountering wood splinters in the eye or nose always concerns me...again, personal preference is all. I would offer up a warm humid hide/area that is accessible day and night but I absolutely would not suggest a complete closed chamber for this species...too wet is not good...as many micro climate areas as possible is good..have fun with it...you will also learn what works for the tort in your care...there is no one size fits all..oh and if you do increasethe depth of the substrate..you may want to line the Iinside perimeter of the cage top ..starting where itmeets up with the bottom..this will hamper any cage climbing...



So I tried out the cage yesterday and it works out pretty nicely. I ordered some Coco Coir from Amazon (couldn't find any in stores) that should arrive tomorrow. I'll try that out and see how AJ does with it. I also saw the huge pack of Peat Moss at Lowe's but held off because it was such a huge pack. I may end up buying it anyway just to try it. Do you have any pics of your setup that uses it?


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## Tom (Oct 12, 2016)

There are many versions of "peat moss". There is the long fibered stuff that looks like a little bundle of plants, and then there is the stuff that is almost like dirt or soil. I think Angela was referring to the latter. Your coir will be very similar and have a similar consistency.

The "long fibered" peat moss is often recommended, but every tortoise I've ever raised tries to eat it. I can't use it, although some people seem to be able to.


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## Hot Wet Sam (Oct 12, 2016)

Tom said:


> There are many versions of "peat moss". There is the long fibered stuff that looks like a little bundle of plants, and then there is the stuff that is almost like dirt or soil. I think Angela was referring to the latter. Your coir will be very similar and have a similar consistency.
> 
> The "long fibered" peat moss is often recommended, but every tortoise I've ever raised tries to eat it. I can't use it, although some people seem to be able to.



Thanks for the clarification. I added a little bit of Sphagnum Moss to his enclosure yesterday in his sleeping hide. I also added a few clumps in areas to discourage climbing and see if he would burrow/nuzzle up to it. So far he has taken a few nips at it, but doesn't seem to interested in it. He made himself very comfortable when he went down for the night last night though.


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## ascott (Oct 13, 2016)

Hot Wet Sam said:


> So I tried out the cage yesterday .and it works out pretty nicely. I ordered some Coco Coir from Amazon (couldn't find any in stores) that should arrive tomorrow. I'll try that out and see how AJ does with it. I also saw the huge pack of Peat Moss at Lowe's but held off because it was such a huge pack. I may end up buying it anyway just to try it. Do you have any pics of your setup that uses it?


Yes..when I am at the house I will get a pic ....and yes, the type I am referring to is the finely processed stuff and I agree with Tom..the stringy stuff is a no go here as well..


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