# Introducing two tortoises? Yes or no?



## amy&alfie (Aug 9, 2015)

What's everyone's opinion on introducing two torts of the same species and approximate age but from different places? I've read that you shouldn't keep more than one in an enclosure but I've seen that most people have more than one. I have a 6 month old horsefeild and would like to get another while he's still young. 

Any advice welcome. X


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## johnsonnboswell (Aug 9, 2015)

No. No. No. No. Never. 

Let me elaborate. Horsefields don't get along with others. They are scrappy and territorial. They bully and fight, and the new one to be introduced suffers terribly. A pair is usually a recipe for disaster. Bullying can be subtle and easy to miss, easy to misinterpret. Males fight each other, females bully each other, and a male pesters a female beyond bearing. Pairs don't work. There can be death, even without bloody fights. 

A breeding colony can work, 3 or more females and one male. If the animals are young, they can't be sexed yet, so it may not work once they mature. It may never work. They need a lot of space and sight breaks. Even a group of mature tortoises can fail. 

There is already a thread on this subject. I had to separate a big old female RT because a smaller female bullied her. 

Some species are more social or tolerant. Some people have large successful colonies that live outdoors all year. A lot of us with more than one tortoise have a lot of habitats. 

Any new tortoise requires a quarantine period of around 6 months in a complete separate set up. Have as many habitats and tortoises as you like, but not together. It's so good you asked!


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## tortoise_world123 (Aug 9, 2015)

I don't know as much. I have two Hermann's tortoises who get on great and are a couple years apart. I can see the points made about how they can fight with one-another however I have seen it work many times with no problem. If you do it just be prepared for the worst and have different enclosures. I'm aware that at this time it is difficult to determine the sex at this age.


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## amy&alfie (Aug 9, 2015)

Blimey! I've seen people say it can go wrong but I didn't know just how wrong! Thanks for all your advice! I'll leave my little'un by himself for the forseable then! Until I get enough space for more enclosures at least. It's right what they say I suppose, my need for a friend for him is my need not his, he's quite happy not being picked on! I say he coz he holds his tail to the side but I know it's too early to sex. Also, while I'm here I'm struggling knowing what to do about humidity, I've covered his table with foil and am pouring water in the substrate and mixing it up daily will this do? If not what makes better covering, I've read babies need lots of humidity ... Also, am I right to turn his lights off at night so temps drop as in the wild or does he need to be heated at all times? So much conflicting advice! Sorry for the 21 questions!


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## tortoise_world123 (Aug 9, 2015)

Yea turn the lights off at night. Just make sure it doesn't go really cold.


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## amy&alfie (Aug 9, 2015)

tortoise_world123 said:


> Yea turn the lights off at night. Just make sure it doesn't go really cold.


Thanks that's what I thought, it never gets lower than 22 degrees C in our living room overnight I have been keeping an eye on the thermometer


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## Tom (Aug 9, 2015)

tortoise_world123 said:


> I don't know as much. I have two Hermann's tortoises who get on great and are a couple years apart. I can see the points made about how they can fight with one-another however I have seen it work many times with no problem. If you do it just be prepared for the worst and have different enclosures. I'm aware that at this time it is difficult to determine the sex at this age.



Often people don't know how to read tortoise behavior and they think things are fine when things are not fine at all. We've had whole threads on here where people mistake OBVIOUS tortoise aggression as one tortoise "helping" another altruistically. The likelihood is that your tortoises are managing to survive despite constant chronic stress, and they are not "getting on" at all.

Pairs are not a good idea at any age. There is always a winner and a loser and the loser suffers. Given the choice, the less dominant one would leave the more dominant tortoises territory. Not given the choice, they just have to live with a very unnatural unpleasant situation until they either succumb and die, or find a way out.

Further, young russians are more scrappy than young hermanni in most cases.


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## tortoise_world123 (Aug 9, 2015)

Tom said:


> Often people don't know how to read tortoise behavior and they think things are fine when things are not fine at all. We've had whole threads on here where people mistake OBVIOUS tortoise aggression as one tortoise "helping" another altruistically. The likelihood is that your tortoises are managing to survive despite constant chronic stress, and they are not "getting on" at all.
> 
> Pairs are not a good idea at any age. There is always a winner and a loser and the loser suffers. Given the choice, the less dominant one would leave the more dominant tortoises territory. Not given the choice, they just have to live with a very unnatural unpleasant situation until they either succumb and die, or find a way out.
> 
> Further, young russians are more scrappy than young hermanni in most cases.



Every group in the animal kingdom has a leader/dominant figure. Yes I believe tortoises do compete for things such as food and space however (if there is no fighting) the "loser" will still lead a relatively happy life, cared for properly of course. My two snuggle up in the corner every night. This may just be a survival mechanism but I'm certain that if my tortoises, as you say are living unnaturally and uncomfortably then that probably wouldn't happen. They are also very close to one-another (not far apart) so again I don't think they would show that behaviour. Therefore I and many others believe that keeping tortoises together is fine under the right conditions. So to the person who asked this question, I would say you could get a companion for your little friend. Please don't be put off with all these comments. You just need to search it up online and many websites and forums will give you advise about introducing new torts. Horse fields may be "scrappy" but it can work. Do more research on the topic and you'll know what I mean.
View attachment ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1439147689.217810.jpg


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## Lyn W (Aug 9, 2015)

tortoise_world123 said:


> Every group in the animal kingdom has a leader/dominant figure. Yes I believe tortoises do compete for things such as food and space however (if there is no fighting) the "loser" will still lead a relatively happy life, cared for properly of course. My two snuggle up in the corner every night. This may just be a survival mechanism but I'm certain that if my tortoises, as you say are living unnaturally and uncomfortably then that probably wouldn't happen. They are also very close to one-another (not far apart) so again I don't think they would show that behaviour. Therefore I and many others believe that keeping tortoises together is fine under the right conditions. So to the person who asked this question, I would say you could get a companion for your little friend. Please don't be put off with all these comments. You just need to search it up online and many websites and forums will give you advise about introducing new torts. Horse fields may be "scrappy" but it can work. Do more research on the topic and you'll know what I mean.
> View attachment 142759


The fact they do not actively fight but are 'close' to each other does not mean that one isn't bullying the other. Tortoises do not 'snuggle' - that could be a territorial thing. 
Please do not be so quick to dismiss not just 'opinions' of others but their findings from years and years of tortoise keeping and observations. They are trying to stop us making the same mistakes as themselves so that our torts can live happier healthier and longer lives. It is a very foolish person that ignores the voice of experience!


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## Lyn W (Aug 9, 2015)

amy&alfie said:


> Blimey! I've seen people say it can go wrong but I didn't know just how wrong! Thanks for all your advice! I'll leave my little'un by himself for the forseable then! Until I get enough space for more enclosures at least. It's right what they say I suppose, my need for a friend for him is my need not his, he's quite happy not being picked on! I say he coz he holds his tail to the side but I know it's too early to sex. Also, while I'm here I'm struggling knowing what to do about humidity, I've covered his table with foil and am pouring water in the substrate and mixing it up daily will this do? If not what makes better covering, I've read babies need lots of humidity ... Also, am I right to turn his lights off at night so temps drop as in the wild or does he need to be heated at all times? So much conflicting advice! Sorry for the 21 questions!


Torts need darkness to sleep but also warmth especially in the NW of England so your best option would probably be to use a CHE run through a thermostat at night. I bought the CHE and thermostat at THE RANGE, about £55 for the 2 but the thermostat will keep the temp even and save on you elec bills. As soon as my MVB goes off the CHE is on and it also provides extra heat if needed during winter.


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## tortoise_world123 (Aug 9, 2015)

Lyn W said:


> The fact they do not actively fight but are 'close' to each other does not mean that one isn't bullying the other. Tortoises do not 'snuggle' - that could be a territorial thing.
> Please do not be so quick to dismiss not just 'opinions' of others but their findings from years and years of tortoise keeping and observations. They are trying to stop us making the same mistakes as themselves so that our torts can live happier healthier and longer lives. It is a very foolish person that ignores the voice of experience!



I fully understand that there can be risks when taking in more tortoises and believe me I have read and watched many stories of tortoises being bullied ect. I wouldn't say that I have dismissed/ignored any observations or opinions by anyone. In fact I have respect for people who are experienced keepers that come on here and advise people about their tortoises. All I have suggested is that keeping pairs together CAN work. I'm also aware that tortoises,like every reptile do not have any emotions. So by saying "my tortoises snuggle" was not suggesting that they may be enjoying each other's company but my tortoises tolerate each others presence. Who knows there could be many reasons. To me a tortoise that is eating,drinking,basking and doing whatever else is considered to be normal tortoise behaviour, isn't a problem. I too want the best for People and their tortoises. After all I didn't sign up to be a nuisance but rather share my knowledge/findings and ask questions.


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## Tom (Aug 9, 2015)

tortoise_world123 said:


> Yes I believe tortoises do compete for things such as food and space however (if there is no fighting) the "loser" will still lead a relatively happy life, cared for properly of course.



So if I locked you in a cell with an angry deranged lunatic who wanted you gone, you'd live a normal happy healthy life? As long as you were eating and drinking, I should assume everything is fine? 

C'mon. Even if the guy never touched you, it would still be a very very uncomfortable, stressful living arrangement, would it not?


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## Tom (Aug 9, 2015)

tortoise_world123 said:


> My two snuggle up in the corner every night. This may just be a survival mechanism but I'm certain that if my tortoises, as you say are living unnaturally and uncomfortably then that probably wouldn't happen.



You have illustrated my previous point here beautifully. I said people are ignorant of tortoise behavior, and you jumped right in and proved me right. "Snuggling" is the dominant one trying to crowd the other one out of its territory.

You look at this and see "snuggling". And animal behaviorist looks at this and sees something entirely different.


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## tortoise_world123 (Aug 9, 2015)

Tom said:


> You have illustrated my previous point here beautifully. I said people are ignorant of tortoise behavior, and you jumped right in and proved me right. "Snuggling" is the dominant one trying to crowd the other one out of its territory.
> 
> You look at this and see "snuggling". And animal behaviorist looks at this and sees something entirely different.



I'm sorry but if the tortoise can't speak to you then how do assume that it's having a miserable time? How do you know that your tortoise is happy? My tortoise speedy is in my opinion the dominant one and he is usually the one that is further in the corner with my little one (Shelley) just nudging alongside. so it doesn't appear to be a territorial thing by any means.


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## Tom (Aug 9, 2015)

tortoise_world123 said:


> Therefore I and many others believe that keeping tortoises together is fine under the right conditions.



Two points regarding the above sentence:

1. Everyone in the whole tortoise community used to think that sulcata hatchlings needed to be on dry substrate and only needed soaking once a week if ever. It was thought, and often repeated that even moderate humidity could cause shell rot and respiratory infections.

No matter how many people thought this and believed it to be true, it wasn't. They were all wrong. I used to be one of them.

2. Keeping GROUPS of tortoises together often IS fine. Pairs are another matter entirely. Pair dynamics are much more personal and confrontational than group dynamics.

In conclusion: Because you have not seen pair situations cause problems, and because you mistakenly believe everything is fine with your own pair, even though it is not fine and they are clearly showing the classic tortoise aggressions signs of following and crowding, is not a good reason to come on to a world wide forum and tell people it is fine and they should go ahead and try it, even thought people with decades of experience with the species in question are saying otherwise.

Here is another way to look at it: If the original poster follows the advice to house them separately, will any harm come to either of them? No. It can't. On the other hand, if the OP follows your well-intentioned but ill-informed advice, might harm come to either or both tortoises? Yep.

Exhibit "A": http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/bad-day-for-baby.114328/

Exhibit "B": http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...earned-the-hard-way.94114/page-3#post-1164970

There are dozens of examples like this on the forum if you care to search around a bit. We had a lady with two red foots join the forum a few months ago. We all told her the same thing we are telling this poster, and she ignored us. 6 weeks later she came on to the forum asking for medical advice as one of her RFs had bitten off the tail and rear leg of the other one. RFs are usually pretty peaceful.

More food for thought...


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## Tom (Aug 9, 2015)

tortoise_world123 said:


> I'm sorry but if the tortoise can't speak to you then how do assume that it's having a miserable time? How do you know that your tortoise is happy? My tortoise speedy is in my opinion the dominant one and he is usually the one that is further in the corner with my little one (Shelley) just nudging alongside. so it doesn't appear to be a territorial thing by any means.



Just because you don't know how to read animal behavior does not mean the rest of the world doesn't either.

Your tortoises are telling you everything you need to know, you just have not yet learned how to listen.


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## leigti (Aug 9, 2015)

tortoise_world123 said:


> I'm sorry but if the tortoise can't speak to you then how do assume that it's having a miserable time? How do you know that your tortoise is happy? My tortoise speedy is in my opinion the dominant one and he is usually the one that is further in the corner with my little one (Shelley) just nudging alongside. so it doesn't appear to be a territorial thing by any means.


If you were waiting for an animal to speak to you then you really shouldn't be owning animals. They tell you everything they can, it is your job to learn how to read their behavior. Animals don't play games, they "say it like it is". Tortoises are not the easiest to read, not like a dog or a horse. Please listen to the experience tortoise keepers here. Learn what you need to and then educate these friends of yours. Sorry to sound harsh, but your animals are paying the price for your ignorance.


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## tortoise_world123 (Aug 9, 2015)

Well I will have a look around and read some more threads. This is where our opinions differ (none of us know the true answer) some people believe in complete isolation and others believe in keeping them together. True, isolation doesn't harm them physically...and there is always risks of tortoises attacking in groups but if there doesn't seem to be a problem many people will take the risk. Here's the thing, I'm now almost certain that my eldest tort is not a he but a she and I'm now confused about my other tortoises sex (still young to decide). If my other one turns out to be female then that should be fine,right? But if it's a male then I would have to separate them over time. 

What interests me is your opinion on groups being fine. Do you think that (with expanding space) adding another tortoise would be ok with a ratio of males:females (1:3)


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## tortoise_world123 (Aug 9, 2015)

leigti said:


> If you were waiting for an animal to speak to you then you really shouldn't be owning animals. They tell you everything they can, it is your job to learn how to read their behavior. Animals don't play games, they "say it like it is". Tortoises are not the easiest to read, not like a dog or a horse. Please listen to the experience tortoise keepers here. Learn what you need to and then educate these friends of yours. Sorry to sound harsh, but your animals are paying the price for your ignorance.



I'm not waiting for my animals to speak to me. All I've stated is that there is no solid evidence to Suggest a tortoise gets lonely or doesn't like company. Thanks.


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## tortoise_world123 (Aug 9, 2015)

Sorry I meant a ratio of 1:2


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## leigti (Aug 9, 2015)

tortoise_world123 said:


> I'm not waiting for my animals to speak to me. All I've stated is that there is no solid evidence to Suggest a tortoise gets lonely or doesn't like company. Thanks.


Actually there is. And it has been explained to you in this thread.


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## tortoise_world123 (Aug 9, 2015)

Tom said:


> Just because you don't know how to read animal behavior does not mean the rest of the world doesn't either.
> 
> Your tortoises are telling you everything you need to know, you just have not yet learned how to listen.



Do you think s group of three females would be likely to work well instead of my what I believe is two females?


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## tortoise_world123 (Aug 9, 2015)

leigti said:


> Actually there is. And it has been explained to you in this thread.



I'm not saying your wrong but could you clearly explain to me where evidence suggests that my tortoises are uncomfortable with one-another. And do not say it's because of the way they sleep beside one-another.


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## Tom (Aug 9, 2015)

tortoise_world123 said:


> This is where our opinions differ (none of us know the true answer) some people believe in complete isolation and others believe in keeping them together.



I'm not sure you are getting this. Keeping juveniles together in groups is usually not a problem. _*PAIRS*_ are what is usually a problem.

I don't "believe in complete isolation". What I know is that most tortoise species are solitary in the wild. Further, some tortoise species are down right hostile to any other tortoise in defense of territory and resources.


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## Tom (Aug 9, 2015)

tortoise_world123 said:


> I'm not saying your wrong but could you clearly explain to me where evidence suggests that my tortoises are uncomfortable with one-another. And do not say it's because of the way they sleep beside one-another.



Your question is a reasonable one. The thing is that I could spend hours typing and trying to explain the concept of animals that live solitary lives in the wild, territoriality, aggression, etc., and still not get the point across. I don't have hours to do that. It would serve you best to research these things on your own. Do an internet search for territorial species, or solitary animal species, or social animal species. Read for a few hours, then come back and lets talk more specifically about tortoises.

One problem with an open internet forum like ours is that anyone can come on here and say anything. There is no way for a reader to know what a person's experience level is, why they are saying what they are saying, their age, or their intelligence level. We have kids on this forum. I don't know if I'm talking to a 55 year old tortoise zoology professor with field experience, or a 12 year old kid on their mom's iPhone. My point is that animal behavior has been my career since 1986. I don't know what your experience level with animal behavior is. I can only go by the words you have typed in. I mean you no insult, but it does not seem like you have a lot of experience in these matters. Would you care to confirm or deny my suspicions here and tell the readers what experience you are basing your advice for the OP on?


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## Tom (Aug 9, 2015)

tortoise_world123 said:


> Do you think s group of three females would be likely to work well instead of my what I believe is two females?



A group of three hermanni females in a large, interesting, well planted enclosure is very likely to work. No guarantee, but likely. I can't say the same for three female horsfieldii. I would give that one a 50/50 chance of working or not.


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## Tom (Aug 9, 2015)

tortoise_world123 said:


> All I've stated is that there is no solid evidence to Suggest a tortoise gets lonely or doesn't like company.



Yes there is. I'm sorry, but the animal world is full of this sort of evidence. I've not seen any evidence that a tortoise gets "lonely", but there are mountains of evidence to suggest some species don't like company.


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## Tom (Aug 9, 2015)

tortoise_world123 said:


> Sorry I meant a ratio of 1:2



1.2 might work. 1.3 would be better in my opinion.

Also be aware that it can be difficult to sex immature tortoises. Most look female until the hormones kick in and the secondary sexual characteristics begin to show.


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## johnsonnboswell (Aug 9, 2015)

I started with two rescue RTs, a starved male and female, Uncle Vanya and Aunt Maude. When they got healthy, he started making her miserable with his attentions. So I got two more RTs, old large females. The smaller of the two sisters did a slow fade over a couple of years and died the same week my mother died. I didn't recognized the dynamics. The difference in size between the two old sisters was extreme, and should have been a tipoff that they shouldn't be together. Adding them to the existing pair was a slow disaster. 

Afterwards, Olga, the largest one began hiding all the time. She wasn't claiming the best real estate, she was avoiding the others, eating and basking less and less. Once I gave her her own habitat, she's been outgoing as a solo tortoise. The original female, Maude, much smaller than she, was as big a problem to her as the male. 

Oddly, the original pair has seemed fine together since, but I don't expect it to last. Maude might be beginning to bully Vanya who is half her size. She's been growing. He hasn't. 

All this is a long way of saying that some experience is hard won. Not every group works, and pairs don't. You too can have a pet cemetery. Or you can play it safe and learn from other people's mistakes. The stakes are high.


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## SteveW (Aug 9, 2015)

tortoise_world123 said:


> I'm sorry but if the tortoise can't speak to you then how do assume that it's having a miserable time? How do you know that your tortoise is happy? My tortoise speedy is in my opinion the dominant one and he is usually the one that is further in the corner with my little one (Shelley) just nudging alongside. so it doesn't appear to be a territorial thing by any means.



Here's a random thought from someone who has never had Russians, much less two; every stressed turtle/tortoise I've ever been around has communicated that stress by losing weight. Maybe instead of asking internet strangers to prove stress or lack thereof, keep a detailed log of body weights. If you don't have a digital scale that reads to tenths of grams, you need one anyway. Then you can prove to yourself how well it's working.


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## Tom (Aug 9, 2015)

SteveW said:


> Here's a random thought from someone who has never had Russians, much less two; every stressed turtle/tortoise I've ever been around has communicated that stress by losing weight. Maybe instead of asking internet strangers to prove stress or lack thereof, keep a detailed log of body weights. If you don't have a digital scale that reads to tenths of grams, you need one anyway. Then you can prove to yourself how well it's working.



This is not a bad idea Steve, but it is just one piece of the puzzle. Its a good piece, but still just one factor to look at.

In many cases of juveniles housed as a pair, both tortoises will continue to grow, but one will typically grow faster than the other and demonstrate better health and vigor in other ways too.


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## Angel Carrion (Aug 9, 2015)

tortoise_world123 said:


> . I'm also aware that tortoises,like every reptile do not have any emotions.



I'm going to have to disagree with this thought. I do believe reptiles do have emotions just like mammals. I've seen a mother dog mourn over the death of one of her puppies, and I've seen a mother gator do the same over the death of one of her offspring. I used to have two ball pythons that loved to snuggle and were always curled up together when they weren't sun bathing or soaking or exploring. One of these ball pythons (Dragon) I had before acquiring the second (Granite). Dragon was an escape artist and would disappear in my apartment for a couple days before coming out of wherever he hid and curling up with me on the couch. I always left a heating pad set to a safe temperature out for him during his escapes, but he would always come to me instead. After I got Granite, if Dragon escaped all I had to do was find Granite in the enclosure and look on the other side of the wall to find Dragon. He never went far from her and after a couple months of her living with him, he stopped escaping completely. I think maybe he was trying to teach her how and realized she either didn't want to or couldn't, so he gave it up to be with her. They never fought, not even over food, both were healthy all their lives, and they both ended up dying at around the same time, curled up together. I believe Dragon was male and Granite was female, but the people I rescued them from weren't exactly reliable and I never cared enough to have them sexed. But I never saw any mating and Granite never laid any eggs as far as I'm aware. But judging by their behavior, they cared about each other.
There's also a tort that ended up being raised with Great Dane pups (I think) and snuggles up with them and cares about them.
So while reptiles may not care about other members of their species all the time, I do believe they have emotions just like mammals and care about others. It just depends on a specific reptile's personality.
That's not saying that two highly territorial torts will be okay together, because chances are that's not gonna work. At all. Ever. I'm just saying those two torts have emotions and feelings as well, and are most likely feeling "this is annoying. Who the heck are you?! This is my land! This town ain't big enough for two grumpy shells!" Or something like that.


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## Angel Carrion (Aug 9, 2015)

Forgot to add this picture.
View attachment ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1439175198.834642.jpg


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## Tom (Aug 9, 2015)

Angel Carrion said:


> I'm going to have to disagree with this thought. I do believe reptiles do have emotions just like mammals. I've seen a mother dog mourn over the death of one of her puppies, and I've seen a mother gator do the same over the death of one of her offspring. I used to have two ball pythons that loved to snuggle and were always curled up together when they weren't sun bathing or soaking or exploring. One of these ball pythons (Dragon) I had before acquiring the second (Granite). Dragon was an escape artist and would disappear in my apartment for a couple days before coming out of wherever he hid and curling up with me on the couch. I always left a heating pad set to a safe temperature out for him during his escapes, but he would always come to me instead. After I got Granite, if Dragon escaped all I had to do was find Granite in the enclosure and look on the other side of the wall to find Dragon. He never went far from her and after a couple months of her living with him, he stopped escaping completely. I think maybe he was trying to teach her how and realized she either didn't want to or couldn't, so he gave it up to be with her. They never fought, not even over food, both were healthy all their lives, and they both ended up dying at around the same time, curled up together. I believe Dragon was male and Granite was female, but the people I rescued them from weren't exactly reliable and I never cared enough to have them sexed. But I never saw any mating and Granite never laid any eggs as far as I'm aware. But judging by their behavior, they cared about each other.
> There's also a tort that ended up being raised with Great Dane pups (I think) and snuggles up with them and cares about them.
> So while reptiles may not care about other members of their species all the time, I do believe they have emotions just like mammals and care about others. It just depends on a specific reptile's personality.
> That's not saying that two highly territorial torts will be okay together, because chances are that's not gonna work. At all. Ever. I'm just saying those two torts have emotions and feelings as well, and are most likely feeling "this is annoying. Who the heck are you?! This is my land! This town ain't big enough for two grumpy shells!" Or something like that.



I'm sorry. I don't think your examples prove that reptiles are demonstrating emotional attachments to each other or people or dogs. I think you are drawing emotion based conclusions. Its called anthropomorphism.

They may have some basic emotions such as fear or contentment, but I would not say that reptiles "love" any other being.

Just my opinion based on decades of studying animal behavior. I could be wrong, but what I've seen tells me otherwise.


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## tortoise_world123 (Aug 10, 2015)

Angel Carrion said:


> I'm going to have to disagree with this thought. I do believe reptiles do have emotions just like mammals. I've seen a mother dog mourn over the death of one of her puppies, and I've seen a mother gator do the same over the death of one of her offspring. I used to have two ball pythons that loved to snuggle and were always curled up together when they weren't sun bathing or soaking or exploring. One of these ball pythons (Dragon) I had before acquiring the second (Granite). Dragon was an escape artist and would disappear in my apartment for a couple days before coming out of wherever he hid and curling up with me on the couch. I always left a heating pad set to a safe temperature out for him during his escapes, but he would always come to me instead. After I got Granite, if Dragon escaped all I had to do was find Granite in the enclosure and look on the other side of the wall to find Dragon. He never went far from her and after a couple months of her living with him, he stopped escaping completely. I think maybe he was trying to teach her how and realized she either didn't want to or couldn't, so he gave it up to be with her. They never fought, not even over food, both were healthy all their lives, and they both ended up dying at around the same time, curled up together. I believe Dragon was male and Granite was female, but the people I rescued them from weren't exactly reliable and I never cared enough to have them sexed. But I never saw any mating and Granite never laid any eggs as far as I'm aware. But judging by their behavior, they cared about each other.
> There's also a tort that ended up being raised with Great Dane pups (I think) and snuggles up with them and cares about them.
> So while reptiles may not care about other members of their species all the time, I do believe they have emotions just like mammals and care about others. It just depends on a specific reptile's personality.
> That's not saying that two highly territorial torts will be okay together, because chances are that's not gonna work. At all. Ever. I'm just saying those two torts have emotions and feelings as well, and are most likely feeling "this is annoying. Who the heck are you?! This is my land! This town ain't big enough for two grumpy shells!" Or something like that.



I slightly agree with Tom.
I believe that animals do not have any feelings but the examples given are of animals (like many) who have adapted to their surroundings and accept the presence of others. The example given with the tortoise and puppies was cute but I think the tortoise was just copying what they were doing when sleeping (which is still amazing) but I dot take the view that the tortoise believed he was part of the group or intended on fitting in. It probably just liked the warmth of the puppies and found it comfortable. 
Remember when you first got your tortoise...it was probably a little intimidated and was trying to adapt to its new environment but with handling and feeding your tort, he began to trust you and not see you as a threat. So I believe that animals (especially from a young age) sometimes just learn to accept the presence of others. Obviously not all the time.


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## tortoise_world123 (Aug 10, 2015)

Tom said:


> Your question is a reasonable one. The thing is that I could spend hours typing and trying to explain the concept of animals that live solitary lives in the wild, territoriality, aggression, etc., and still not get the point across. I don't have hours to do that. It would serve you best to research these things on your own. Do an internet search for territorial species, or solitary animal species, or social animal species. Read for a few hours, then come back and lets talk more specifically about tortoises.
> 
> One problem with an open internet forum like ours is that anyone can come on here and say anything. There is no way for a reader to know what a person's experience level is, why they are saying what they are saying, their age, or their intelligence level. We have kids on this forum. I don't know if I'm talking to a 55 year old tortoise zoology professor with field experience, or a 12 year old kid on their mom's iPhone. My point is that animal behavior has been my career since 1986. I don't know what your experience level with animal behavior is. I can only go by the words you have typed in. I mean you no insult, but it does not seem like you have a lot of experience in these matters. Would you care to confirm or deny my suspicions here and tell the readers what experience you are basing your advice for the OP on?



I'll put your suspicions at rest by saying that i am not an animal behaviourist or a zoology professor. I am a psychologist and have been for over 51years. I admit that I do not have the same experience with tortoises as you and many others do, but I am well experienced in the area involving people and animals and am taking great pleasure in reading all of these posts. All I can say is that there is a lot of very interesting people on here.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Dec 14, 2015)

Reptiles do have emotions, of a basic but very real kind. 
It is because of these emotions that bullying by another tortoise can make another tortoises life miserable and cause it to fade away and die, in some situations. It is emotions that cause the aggression too, just as a human will become aggressive is his territory is invaded or someone eats your food. 
It's not exactly the same as ours, they don't feel in all the complex ways that we do, but it's just as real for them. They feel contentment, security, the pleasure of a full stomach and being warm and safe. 
Love ?
No, but liking ? I think they like being stroked where it feels nice, they like their food gods that offer security and tasty treats.
Just had to post here, 'cos I keep forgetting i've read this and going back into it again.


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## Big Charlie (Dec 20, 2015)

tortoise_world123 said:


> I slightly agree with Tom.
> I believe that animals do not have any feelings but the examples given are of animals (like many) who have adapted to their surroundings and accept the presence of others. The example given with the tortoise and puppies was cute but I think the tortoise was just copying what they were doing when sleeping (which is still amazing) but I dot take the view that the tortoise believed he was part of the group or intended on fitting in. It probably just liked the warmth of the puppies and found it comfortable.
> Remember when you first got your tortoise...it was probably a little intimidated and was trying to adapt to its new environment but with handling and feeding your tort, he began to trust you and not see you as a threat. So I believe that animals (especially from a young age) sometimes just learn to accept the presence of others. Obviously not all the time.


Did you mean to say that you don't believe animals, of any kind, have feelings? I have seen my dog exhibit pride and embarrassment, as well as joy and sadness. I'm pretty sure that most dog owners would agree. 

Reptiles have much more basic systems, but it depends on how you define an emotion. Is fear an emotion? I know reptiles can exhibit fear or nervousness. I agree with Tidgy's Dad.


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