# How did tortoises survive without heat lamps in the 1950s?



## HelloBella (Feb 4, 2013)

I fear I might be opening up a can of worms here... but here it goes.

I've recently adopted a Russian tortoise and as she has not hibernated this year, I have her all kitted out on an indoor tortoise table complete with UV, basking lamp etc.

However I couldn't help wondering, Russians are meant to be more tolerant to temperature fluctuations compared to the common Mediterranean Spur-thigh and Hermanns species. As I understand it, these were two of the most common species back in the 1950s when the importation and trade of tortoises was booming. I doubt back then that every tortoise owning household kitted their pets out as we do now, yet from the stories I've heard it was poor hibernation conditions and rodents which brought an end to a lot of my friends' tortoises kept back then.

When did it become common practise to start using UV and heat lamps and in reality, if tortoises are hibernated during the cold months is it feasible to raise them as they were back then?

This question is somewhat hypothetical; as my Bella has been raised with modern comforts I would be afraid to ever take them away from her now, but I am curious.


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## mainey34 (Feb 4, 2013)

Well, i must say that it is a good topic and i am curious to know the answer myself. Just like what did we do withouut cellphones?


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## Baoh (Feb 4, 2013)

Outside in suitable habitats (in the US), many of these animals can thrive. A lot of things like heat lamps and UV provision become of greater potential utility when keeping animals indoors, although these depend on what one feeds (D3 supplementation) and the environmental conditions (ambient temperature, light levels, and humidity) inside the home, too.

There is also the idea of keeping animals versus keeping animals "better".

I have raised and/or kept quite a few animals in quite a few ways with multiple ways yielding success if success is measured by good individual health and positive reproductive results. I have kept some animals in what I might consider adequate styles. I prefer to take things beyond that and offer something somewhat more "optimized" these days. I can pretty much put hermanni, graeca, marginata, and horsfieldii outside in a planted area and sit back and watch them live well and produce offspring for me. I never had to fret about a lot of the details for these guys. Likewise, when I lived in FL, keeping species like sulcata, carbonaria, and some other species which come from warmer year-'round climates was much less involved. Where I am now, keeping the non-Testudo animals is a bit more involved, but not nearly as challenging as I see other keepers making things out to be. Maybe I have an easy time of it, though. I carefully observe, but I do not freak out about every little observation I make. I keep everything in its relevant context.

Of course, from what I have seen, a lot of people kill their animals through willful or ignorant forms of negligence. I imagine it happened then and I know it happens now.


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## wellington (Feb 4, 2013)

Would be interesting if any member had tortoises back the could let us know what they had and how they did it. 
As for the cell phones. We lived much better and not so many rude people when we didn't have the stupid things. We also used a pay phones.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Feb 4, 2013)

I have to speak on behalf of a departed Aunt to give some answer to your interest. 

She grew up in SF, and for her it worked well, she was good friends with some one at Steinhart Aquarium in GG park. They clued her in on a number of thing, natural light being, in retrospect, number one. My grandfather made 'greenhouse windows' for her lizards, tortoises, and frogs. She bred anoles in the late 40's and early 50's. She has some Testudo, I don't know which species, and a lone individual, it laid eggs a couple of time. Then as an adult, she lived in San Jose, with a home that had an atrium, and that was filled with small parrots, iguanas, etc. 

Those stories and experiences is what sparked my interest.

Will


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## sibi (Feb 4, 2013)

I certainly didn't own torts back then, but using common sense and the living conditions back then, one can guess that there wasn't as much land development in rural areas. Depending on the species we're talking about, torts instinctively knew how and where to burrow to keep warm in the wild. I would imagine that certain species like sulcatas would travel miles a day seeking warmer climates and food. Those species that can tolerate colder climates and hibernate during winter have thrived. Of course, there's always torts that don't make it in the wild, but that's how animals in the wild lived and died. My babies came from parents that were from the wild, and they are survivors as hatchlings from the ground. They were born in a farm area, and torts lived just fine in the wild. I think that when humans get a hold of there free animals and make them captured pets, that's when these animals have so many issues. That's my opinion, and it's just my educated guess.


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## wellington (Feb 4, 2013)

sibi said:


> I certainly didn't own torts back then, but using common sense and the living conditions back then, one can guess that there wasn't as much land development in rural areas. Depending on the species we're talking about, torts instinctively knew how and where to burrow to keep warm in the wild. I would imagine that certain species like sulcatas would travel miles a day seeking warmer climates and food. Those species that can tolerate colder climates and hibernate during winter have thrived. Of course, there's always torts that don't make it in the wild, but that's how animals in the wild lived and died. My babies came from parents that were from the wild, and they are survivors as hatchlings from the ground. They were born in a farm area, and torts lived just fine in the wild. I think that when humans get a hold of there free animals and make them captured pets, that's when these animals have so many issues. That's my opinion, and it's just my educated guess.



I don't think the question was about in the wild. That is common sense. I took it they were talking about keeping torts.


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## sibi (Feb 4, 2013)

I was talking about captive torts. You can have captive torts on a farm which is what I was making reference to. The comparison of the captive and wild were similar in those days when there weren't heat bulbs and humidifiers and uvb bulbs. Like I said, the parents of my sullies were from the wild, but now live on a farm ( so they are considered captive?) but live on a big farm. Their babies were born in the ground. I'm just saying that torts instinctively know what to do to keep warm in the winters. I'm not trying to insult anyone with the term "common sense." Sorry if u misunderstood what I was saying.=(



wellington said:


> sibi said:
> 
> 
> > I certainly didn't own torts back then, but using common sense and the living conditions back then, one can guess that there wasn't as much land development in rural areas. Depending on the species we're talking about, torts instinctively knew how and where to burrow to keep warm in the wild. I would imagine that certain species like sulcatas would travel miles a day seeking warmer climates and food. Those species that can tolerate colder climates and hibernate during winter have thrived. Of course, there's always torts that don't make it in the wild, but that's how animals in the wild lived and died. My babies came from parents that were from the wild, and they are survivors as hatchlings from the ground. They were born in a farm area, and torts lived just fine in the wild. I think that when humans get a hold of there free animals and make them captured pets, that's when these animals have so many issues. That's my opinion, and it's just my educated guess.
> ...


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## wellington (Feb 4, 2013)

I did misunderstand. Not the "common sense" part, I didn't take that wrong and I didn't mean it bad either. I misunderstood, that I thought you were talking about wild tortoise, not ones owned and living in captivity. Sorry


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## sibi (Feb 4, 2013)

Thanks =P


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## DeanS (Feb 4, 2013)

I think too much (over) thinking has taking place in recent years. In the 'old' days, you put the tort in the yard, let 'em eat your lawn and garden, dig a hole and forget about him until he ends up in the next town! The sun was all they needed...no lights, no heating blankets. 

1950s common sense=IGNORANCE IS BLISS! 

2000s common sense=read Tom's threads


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## RedfootsRule (Feb 4, 2013)

I would say, if the torts were kept outside, then they lived. If they were kept inside, except by people who had a clue, they very likely died...Just think of the progress we have made in the past 20 years in tortoise care. In the '50s, I very highly doubt any inside-kept tortoises survived for long. Do you think it was even common knowledge back then that they even needed UV?...Or what UV even what, or what it did for them? I wasn't alive then, but I have extreme doubt.
So, my opinion would be...if they were inside....they didn't.


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## Spn785 (Feb 4, 2013)

My friend's Russian was aaproximately 110 years old when it died (I question this because I never heard of one living that long) it was born and raised in captivity, and what his grandfather did (who was the owner of the tort in the 50's) was he had a lamp set up on one side of the enclosure with a metal bowl instead of a lamp shade over it for heat, then he took it outside for a total of an hour everyday (when it was cold out 4 15 minute periods). The time outside was just an estimate and no his grandfather did not know about UVB at the time, but he did know it was an animal used to the outdoors, so as much time outside as possible was best. Now I was told this information frrom a friend who was told it by his grandfather, so it is third-hand knowledge.


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## sibi (Feb 4, 2013)

That is so funny, and TRUE:-D That was really good; loved it.


DeanS said:


> I think too much (over) thinking has taking place in recent years. In the 'old' days, you put the tort in the yard, let 'em eat your lawn and garden, dig a hole and forget about him until he ends up in the next town! The sun was all they needed...no lights, no heating blankets.
> 
> 1950s common sense=IGNORANCE IS BLISS!
> 
> 2000s common sense=read Tom's threads


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## Yvonne G (Feb 4, 2013)

Back in the '50s and '60s we wouldn't dream of keeping a tortoise in the house. We had desert tortoises that lived in the back yard. There was no need of lighting, etc. because the tortoises were in nature. I didn't know anything about them. It was just something to put in the back yard. If it rained, oh well. When it was cold, the tortoise stayed in his hiding place. We never had a sick tortoise. But when we moved to the country I lost all of them to poor fencing.


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## EKLC (Feb 4, 2013)

How do you think the galaps brought back to England in the 1800's got along?


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## RedfootsRule (Feb 4, 2013)

EKLC said:


> How do you think the galaps brought back to England in the 1800's got along?



Thats actually a good question...Obviously they were to large and would never be housed inside, but how did they stay warm? England gets pretty cold, and the Galapagos don't really experience cold conditions naturally...Very interesting question...


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## Kapidolo Farms (Feb 4, 2013)

Joe Lazlo (sp) a famous herp curator from Texas, in the 60's and early 70's published a modest article about using either BL or BLB tubes(?) (not the psychedelic poster light one, but the other). And that, with VitaLights was the beginning of an interest and use in lighting for indoor herps. They offered behavioral and essential quality light. Heat lamps have been around much longer they have medical uses. Otherwise reef aquarium interest have driven the whole animal specialty lighting market. 

I get how this may evade many people it is BC - before computer.

Will


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## EricIvins (Feb 4, 2013)

If you do the research, you'll find many anecdotal stories or articals that mention Tortoises being kept out in the "garden". No one kept these animals indoors, they were kept outdoors to overwinter naturally, which they did very successfully.

On another note - Heat technology has been around the 1600's, so I'm sure that the people in charge of caring for the myriad of Exotic animals available at that time had some kind of system rigged to produce heat in the winter. I'd have to find it, but I do have an old article about Galops in the UK in the early 1900's......


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## HelloBella (Feb 4, 2013)

EricIvins said:


> If you do the research, you'll find many anecdotal stories or articals that mention Tortoises being kept out in the "garden". No one kept these animals indoors, they were kept outdoors to overwinter naturally, which they did very successfully.
> 
> On another note - Heat technology has been around the 1600's, so I'm sure that the people in charge of caring for the myriad of Exotic animals available at that time had some kind of system rigged to produce heat in the winter. I'd have to find it, but I do have an old article about Galops in the UK in the early 1900's......




That was my point, I live in the UK and tortoises were definitely thought of as a 'garden pet'. My mother's was kept in the garden throughout the summer (likely rain or shine) with a little box full of straw for shelter then during hibernation was kept in a layered up cardboard box in her father's potting shed. In the end, it was a rat that got to her tortoise rather than the elements.


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## cherylim (Feb 5, 2013)

I've spoken to a number of tortoise owners from around that time. It tends to happen at garden centres, when I'm buying an excessive amount of soil. The staff will strike up conversation 'So, what are you planting with all that?', and when I explain that it's for a tortoise enclosure I'm surprised by the amount that respond with 'We used to have one, when I was a child'.

Until I got Emrys, I wasn't aware just how common they'd been. Yet, when you're a tortoise owner, you do start to notice. A lot of people want to share their stories of tortoise ownership, and many I've spoken to here in the UK simply let their tortoises roam in the house and garden unrestricted. So, they got natural UV but still weren't in the best of conditions.

A few people I've spoken to said that they kept their tortoise 'like a cat/dog [delete as appropriate]', and that some simply kept theirs indoors. They'd then proudly say 'They live a long time, don't they? We had ours for at least 10 years!'.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 5, 2013)

Hi, HelloBella. Interesting question. As others have said, back in the day, people either kept their pet tortoise or box turtle outdoors where nature provided for its needs, or else the poor creature died prematurely. There is a tendency when comparing things between time periods to wonder whether people (or animals) today have it too cushy, and things back then were just right; or to wonder whether things back then were too difficult, and people (or animals) today are fortunate to have more modern conveniences.

A fascinating question. However, when it comes to physiology, a species' needs don't really change that much. Bottom line, _Testudo_ species must bask at a bare minimum of 90*F (preferably 95-100*F) to properly digest their food and keep their immune system up. The rest of the time, they must have ambient daytime temperatures from about 68-86*F (preferably in the 70s), or else their resting metabolism will be too high. Depending on the species, they may also prefer nighttime temperatures in the 60s. As for diet, they must eat mostly leafy greens and weeds to get proper nutrition. Without this diet, they will not thrive, and could eventually die of malnourishment or diarrhea. Diet supplements help, but are not strictly necessary if the tortoise gets fresh greens and adequate sunlight.

I wasn't around in the 50s, but I would think that if the technology and knowledge they had at the time provided for these bare necessities (good temperatures and healthy diet), then the animals would have been fine. But again, I think people back then usually achieved this by keeping their tortoise outside. Sadly, the literature from the US and UK from decades ago is full of pet tortoises and box turtles with extremely high mortality rates.

I think the technology and knowledge we have today allows us to keep these animals in places where we would not have been able to keep them in the past (i.e. indoors in either suitable or unsuitable climates). So, keep doing what you're doing, and enjoy the benefits of 21st Century reptile-keeping, or else you may find yourself facing the problems of 20th Century reptile-keeping.


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## DesertGrandma (Feb 5, 2013)

Back in the 1950s and the 1960s the only thing we knew about were the desert tortoises and the little turtles you bought in the dimestore that were painted with flowers etc. People would pick up desert tortoises and bring them home and put them in their backyards. Some lived and some didn't. They weren't primarily pets but just kept for curiosity sake. I had one friend who did not have a fenced yard and her father tethered a desert tortoise by making a hole in its shell. Today we place a whole lot more value on tortoises as pets then they did then. Thankfully they are now protected so that the poor little turtles don't get their shells painted and the desert tortoises are protected by federal law.


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## Shannon and Jason (Feb 5, 2013)

I just wanted to say thanks for this interesting thread. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading


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## Terry Allan Hall (Feb 5, 2013)

I inherited my first Hermann's from my grandfather, who'd had her since late 1944, and during the winter, she lived in his kitchen, with an infra-red light, as farmers use for poultry, in one corner, to give her a basking spot. He told me that during the summer, when she lived out in his garden, he noticed that she always basked on a flat stone, and he measured it's heat, then made sure it was approx. the same under her lamp. She always had access to water and was soaked 2X a week.

Otherwise, she had the run of his kitchen during the winter, then, when it warmed up, back out to the garden, and this worked for about 30 years, until his passing, then I did pretty much the same, as it seemed to work fine, for 19 more years.

No idea if this was the "universal" technique for keeping a Med. tortoise back then or not, but it worked very well.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Feb 5, 2013)

I inherited my first Hermann's from my grandfather, who'd had her since late 1944, and during the winter, she lived in his kitchen, with an infra-red light, as farmers use for poultry, in one corner, to give her a basking spot. He told me that during the summer, when she lived out in his garden, he noticed that she always basked on a flat stone, and he measured it's heat, then made sure it was approx. the same temperature under her lamp. She always had access to water and was soaked 2X a week.

Otherwise, she had the run of his kitchen during the winter, then, when it warmed up, back out to the garden, and this worked for about 30 years, until his passing, then, after she came to me, I did pretty much the same, as it seemed to work fine, for 19 more years.

No idea if this was the "universal" technique for keeping a Med. tortoise back then or not, but it worked very well.


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## wellington (Feb 5, 2013)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> I inherited my first Hermann's from my grandfather, who'd had her since late 1944, and during the winter, she lived in his kitchen, with an infra-red light, as farmers use for poultry, in one corner, to give her a basking spot. He told me that during the summer, when she lived out in his garden, he noticed that she always basked on a flat stone, and he measured it's heat, then made sure it was approx. the same temperature under her lamp. She always had access to water and was soaked 2X a week.
> 
> Otherwise, she had the run of his kitchen during the winter, then, when it warmed up, back out to the garden, and this worked for about 30 years, until his passing, then, after she came to me, I did pretty much the same, as it seemed to work fine, for 19 more years.
> 
> No idea if this was the "universal" technique for keeping a Med. tortoise back then or not, but it worked very well.



That is really a nice story. That's the kind I'd like to hear more of. Thanks for sharing


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## sibi (Feb 5, 2013)

I guess this story answers the initial questions about heat/uvb bulbs. When there weren't any back then, people kept torts outside in warmer temps, and either provided rudimentary heating or brought them inside the house for the winter. And, they were just fine!


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## mctlong (Feb 5, 2013)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> I inherited my first Hermann's from my grandfather, who'd had her since late 1944, and during the winter, she lived in his kitchen, with an infra-red light, as farmers use for poultry, in one corner, to give her a basking spot. He told me that during the summer, when she lived out in his garden, he noticed that she always basked on a flat stone, and he measured it's heat, then made sure it was approx. the same temperature under her lamp. She always had access to water and was soaked 2X a week.
> 
> Otherwise, she had the run of his kitchen during the winter, then, when it warmed up, back out to the garden, and this worked for about 30 years, until his passing, then, after she came to me, I did pretty much the same, as it seemed to work fine, for 19 more years.
> 
> No idea if this was the "universal" technique for keeping a Med. tortoise back then or not, but it worked very well.




Your grandfather was very intuned to the animal's needs. Awesome story!

I was not alive in the 50s and 60s, but my dad was. Him and his family kept Desert Torts (locally wild-caught) in their backyard. According to him, it was common practice here in Southern California to catch and keep tortoises. As this species is native to the area, they were well suited to the outdoor temps here. They were never brought indoors. They were strictly garden animals. 

I'm sure it must've been more difficult to keep non-native species that are not suited for our environment. Although, since we get sunshine almost year-round, most torts will probably do okay outdoors here.


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