# Mercury Vapor vs Florescent?



## Kevin Kelly (Nov 9, 2010)

Which of these two are better? Or which is preferred? 
Mercury vapor vs florescent.
I have a 48" fixture and was planning on using the florescent but not sure if it is adequate.


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## Tom (Nov 9, 2010)

This one has been argued at length here, but here is the short version of my opinion. Flourescents do not provide enough usable UV do the job they are intended to do. I don't care what the light meters or the manufacturers or the sellers of them say, I go by the condition of the animals that are under them. I've pulled lots of reptiles with MBD out from under them and nothing written on a package will change that. This is based on 24 years of professional pet experience with thousands of animals in thousands of different situations. Flourescents are great for lighting up the enclosure, but for animals that really NEED UV, like green iguanas, bearded dragons and herbivorous chelonians, they are insufficient as a UV source in my opinion.

I only have experience with a few MVBs, but all of that experience, and the experience of others, demonstrates that they ARE sufficient to meet the UV needs of captive indoor reptiles.

Having said all of that; NOTHING even comes close to natural, unfiltered sunlight.


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## Snapper (Nov 9, 2010)

Wow, well said Tom!


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## DeanS (Nov 9, 2010)

Tom said:


> This one has been argued at length here, but here is the short version of my opinion. Flourescents do not provide enough usable UV do the job they are intended to do. I don't care what the light meters or the manufacturers or the sellers of them say, I go by the condition of the animals that are under them. I've pulled lots of reptiles with MBD out from under them and nothing written on a package will change that. This is based on 24 years of professional pet experience with thousands of animals in thousands of different situations. Flourescents are great for lighting up the enclosure, but for animals that really NEED UV, like green iguanas, bearded dragons and herbivorous chelonians, they are insufficient as a UV source in my opinion.
> 
> I only have experience with a few MVBs, but all of that experience, and the experience of others, demonstrates that they ARE sufficient to meet the UV needs of captive indoor reptiles.
> 
> Having said all of that; NOTHING even comes close to natural, unfiltered sunlight.



I think Tom and I must be the biggest advocates of MVBs (and the SUN)...I think that fluorescents do nothing but give off extra light I've never had full faith in them, but they sure do brighten up the kitchen


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## Cherbear (Nov 9, 2010)

I just received my powersun uv mercury vapor bulb today and I can say it puts out a nice natural looking light. I didn't want my his enclosure to look like the Griswold's house on Christmas Vacation.


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## Balboa (Nov 9, 2010)

Tom and Dean are pros, and if they say it, its likely so.

For the life of me I don't see why their experience has shown this. I need to get a meter and do my own testing. SCIENTIFICALLY there should be no difference between the two, IF correctly applied. If going the flourescent route, it has to be within manufacturer suggested distance of the animal, it has to have a quality reflector, it has to have the basking spot "in its aim", and sufficient other lighting needs to be available to avoid eye damage. IF all these conditions are met, and the animal gets regular natural sunlight in summer, there SHOULD never be a problem with tortoises, maybe a different story with shorter lived animals. If Tom says even then it doesn't cut it, then some more research needs to be done.

MVBs have there own problems, it is very easy to over do it with them, once again follow directions. They are also actually two bulbs in one, the mercury vapor bulb itself, which are EXTREMELY long lived (and essentially just a fluorescent smooshed down) combined with a normal incandescent bulb, which as we know are NOT long lived. Some can die after a few days use on occasion. The incandescent is acting as the ballast for the mercury vapor, and providing the visible red light to balance the light. When that incandescent filament burns out, the entire bulb is trash. $75 gone because a $1 bulb inside it burned out, and now more mercury in our landfills. Sorry, that irks me and I won't support it. I've heard of a non-self ballasted version, with bad reviews, and never seen it on shelves. These would be extremely long lived, able to provide adequate UVB for years, so not a very smart marketing choice for the manufacturers.

Metal Halide Versions should be coming out soon, and those will be the new king.


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## Tom (Nov 9, 2010)

I used to advocate the flourescents to my customers and they spent lots of money on them. So did I. I read the literature with them and the packages and I listened to the people selling them. The problem was, some of my customer's animals STILL developed MBD. They had new bulbs at the right distance, basking lights too for heat, and were supplementing with Repcal with D3. I couldn't figure it out for a while because only some of them had a problem. I didn't have any problem with mine. All my animals were healthy. After talking to lots and lots of customers and other reptile keepers, it became apparent. The ones who took their pets outside for sunshine once in a while never saw any MBD. The ones who stayed indoors under the UV flourescent bulbs ALL the time got MBD.

This was many years ago, but nothing seems to have changed as I still see the same thing, though less often since I'm not in retail anymore. There were no MVBs back then. As soon as the MVBs hit the scene few years ago, I was skeptical, but gave them a try. Early on I got an iguana with fat limbs, the bowed out swollen lower jaw, rear leg paralysis and tremors. Classic MBD from an indoor animal with all the proper flourescent UV bulbs. This animal hadn't been outside in about 6-9 months as the owner who raised it had a new child and wasn't giving the iguana the outdoor time that it used to get. Of course, I got it in December during an unusual cold and rainy spell here and so I couldn't take it out in the sun as it was too cold and there was no sun. So under my first MVB it went. The tremors stopped within a few days and after a few months she was all better. I wasn't able to give her any real sunshine for several weeks. She still has a kink in her tail from when her skeletal system re-calcified, and she's a little weak in the back end but her jaw went back to normal. She's been fine for several years now.


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## PeanutbuttER (Nov 9, 2010)

Balboa, here you go.

http://www.reptileuv.com/megaray-eb-60-watt-flood-uvb-lamp-kit.php

I'm sure other people sell external ballast kits as well. I have actually only heard good reviews. Although they are theoretically better, they're also more hassle to set up and that is most definitely unappealing to consumers. Consumers would much rather plug a bulb into the sockets they already own.


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## Madkins007 (Nov 9, 2010)

I would bet that the problem with fluorescent UVB is purely one of quantity. Balboa has an article coming out that suggests that 4 or so 4' long big fat 'full spectrum' fluorescents should reasonably imitate sunlight, even with the UV. A single 20" 10% UVB bulb would only be about 1/8th of that, or about 12.5% of natural sunlight at best (just going by numbers, not actual UV readings)- about what we expect to see in shade.

In other words, a 20" UVB-10 type bulb may be throwing out 10% of the total light in the UVB range (which is what that number usually means), it is still only throwing out about 12% of what the sun puts out.


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## Kevin Kelly (Nov 9, 2010)

Thank you all very much! I am ordering the MVB today, and he will be in natural sunlight as much as the weather allows until warmer temps hit. By the way this is for a sulcata we rescued that as a severely damaged shell due to neglect and inexperience I'm sure. Needless to say; this guy deserves nothing but the best, for the rest, of his life. Thanks again. 

One last question before I hit the "check out" button. Is this bulb sufficient if I only use one or do I need two? The enclosure is 4'x8' with the hide box on one end that's 2'x2'.

http://www.reptileuv.com/megaray-european-high-voltage-hv-sb-160-220-volt-flood.php


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## Balboa (Nov 9, 2010)

PeanutbuttER said:


> Balboa, here you go.
> 
> http://www.reptileuv.com/megaray-eb-60-watt-flood-uvb-lamp-kit.php
> 
> I'm sure other people sell external ballast kits as well. I have actually only heard good reviews. Although they are theoretically better, they're also more hassle to set up and that is most definitely unappealing to consumers. Consumers would much rather plug a bulb into the sockets they already own.



THAT is interesting. Probably the best option on the market right now, too bad its not on shelves. Personally I hate mail ordering, I want to buy it in a store, and that's how I tend to focus my evaluating. You're right about consumers, we want it easy. 

Also note, it produces little heat, so will still need to be combined with a heat source. Might be possible to get the same kind of levels with a CFL for less money. I have much testing to do, but it will have to wait.



Kevin Kelly said:


> Thank you all very much! I am ordering the MVB today, and he will be in natural sunlight as much as the weather allows until warmer temps hit. By the way this is for a sulcata we rescued that as a severely damaged shell due to neglect and inexperience I'm sure. Needless to say; this guy deserves nothing but the best, for the rest, of his life. Thanks again.
> 
> One last question before I hit the "check out" button. Is this bulb sufficient if I only use one or do I need two? The enclosure is 4'x8' with the hide box on one end that's 2'x2'.
> 
> http://www.reptileuv.com/megaray-european-high-voltage-hv-sb-160-220-volt-flood.php





I'd think that one lamp, positioned at a far end of that enclosure, would provide a nice basking spot. Just follow the directions carefully and monitor temps.


and Mark , shhh don't let too much of the cat out of the bag, LOL

Hopefully this article will be coming out soon, but discussions like this keep shifting things around in my mind. Need to cover all angles, and that's tough with all these moving targets.


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## Madkins007 (Nov 9, 2010)

Balboa said:


> and Mark , shhh don't let too much of the cat out of the bag, LOL
> 
> Hopefully this article will be coming out soon, but discussions like this keep shifting things around in my mind. Need to cover all angles, and that's tough with all these moving targets.



Nothing like a little pressure to speed up the process!  

But I think no matter where the article goes, that this is one of the, if not the biggest, reasons some tortoises fail to thrive under some lighting set-ups.


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## Tom (Nov 9, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> I would bet that the problem with fluorescent UVB is purely one of quantity. Balboa has an article coming out that suggests that 4 or so 4' long big fat 'full spectrum' fluorescents should reasonably imitate sunlight, even with the UV. A single 20" 10% UVB bulb would only be about 1/8th of that, or about 12.5% of natural sunlight at best (just going by numbers, not actual UV readings)- about what we expect to see in shade.
> 
> In other words, a 20" UVB-10 type bulb may be throwing out 10% of the total light in the UVB range (which is what that number usually means), it is still only throwing out about 12% of what the sun puts out.



Its frustrating, because I can't find it, but that iguana study from the 90's had a group of iguanas 4" under a bank of four 48" "Reptile UV" flourescent bulbs as one of the groups in that experiment. The light meter showed plenty of UV, but the blood tests registered little to no D3 in the animals systems. Only the ones getting direct sunshine showed D3 in their blood. Even the ones given dietary D3 showed none in their bloodstream.


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## Balboa (Nov 9, 2010)

Tom said:


> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> > I would bet that the problem with fluorescent UVB is purely one of quantity. Balboa has an article coming out that suggests that 4 or so 4' long big fat 'full spectrum' fluorescents should reasonably imitate sunlight, even with the UV. A single 20" 10% UVB bulb would only be about 1/8th of that, or about 12.5% of natural sunlight at best (just going by numbers, not actual UV readings)- about what we expect to see in shade.
> ...



I WOULD like to read that study. I'll confess to complete ignorance on Iguanas, I've never kept them, and the only reason I possibly ever will Is there are apparently large numbers of them in my area that need rescue, but that would be down the road if ever.

Supposedly the less intense 5.0 varieties of reptile lamp are INTENDED for Iguana, suggesting they need less UVB and from Tom's knowledge you can't give them enough. Something fishy here, and I suspect we have a case of ingredient X missing. It occurs to me now that in order to produce D3, a reptile still requires D2 intake, or am I remembering wrong on this. No amount of UVB natural or otherwise will help a reptile starving for D in that case. Of course that doesn't explain why the same critter has a turn about with natural sunlight... unless its eating bugs out there too 

Which makes me wonder about Tom's experience with rehabbing iguanas. I KNOW Tom is the kind of guy that gives his critters nothing but the best of everything, NOT the average owner. How much is the lights, how much is Tom?


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## Seiryu (Nov 9, 2010)

I have a few things to add. I've been using the 5.0 and 10.0 fluorescent tubes for over 10 years myself, and have never had a case of MBD or any animal that hasn't thrived in them.

I have had my 2 green basilisk for over 4 years now. I have them on 10.0 reptisun tube lights. They never go outside, because they stress too much. I built them a custom 2x2x4 ft enclosure to go out in, with things to hide in and water. But all they did was nose rub the vinyl coated mesh and get nose bleeds. They are pretty flighty lizards. 

I supplement with rep-cal (with d3) once a week. And like I said, have never had issues. As soon as food hits the ground, they are going at it and chasing. If either of my basilisk had any type of MBD they wouldn't be able to get to their basking platforms 5 feet up.

I guess one of the "tricks" I learned a few years ago, was to keep the tube lights closer than the recommended 12". Mine are at about 7-8" from the the platform. Since even the 10.0s give off less UVB than MVBs (at 12 inches) and for the most part, your reptile isn't "basking" under the tube light. It would be nearly impossible for it to get too much UV rays at 7-8".

My tortoises also have 10.0 tube lights, supplemented with rep-cal with d3 (only in the winter). Then they are outside every day that they can be in the spring, summer and fall. Once the new mega-rays come out with testing done. I am definitely going to try them out for the winter.

Lighting is one of the trickiest things out there in terms of reptiles. There are a lot of options, and people have such varying results even with the same bulbs. I know of people who had real bad eye issues with PowerSun MVB. They were at 15 inches and a day after they took it out, their iguana (in this case) was already looking better. Yet I know people here who use them with no problems.


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## Madkins007 (Nov 9, 2010)

Tom said:


> Its frustrating, because I can't find it, but that iguana study from the 90's had a group of iguanas 4" under a bank of four 48" "Reptile UV" flourescent bulbs as one of the groups in that experiment. The light meter showed plenty of UV, but the blood tests registered little to no D3 in the animals systems. Only the ones getting direct sunshine showed D3 in their blood. Even the ones given dietary D3 showed none in their bloodstream.



Another possibility is that there is not a lot of 'almost UVC', which would be close to the critical 296nm range that does the whole D3 thing.

I would also wonder- I would love to see the blood calcium levels as well.


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