# EVs?



## Tom (Mar 9, 2022)

Anyone else taking a more serious look at electric cars? .04 cents a mile IF you have to pay for the electricity. Free if you have solar (I do) or if you can get free charging while parked at work. .25 cents a mile on average for an average gasoline powered sedan in a state with average current gas prices. I calculated .43 cents per mile for my 6.0 liter diesel with CA prices, and diesel has gone up since then.

I've been talking about it and watching videos lately. All the problems that made people not want one have been getting eliminated.

Previous reasons people gave for not wanting an EV (Electric vehicle):
1. Short range. Many of them are getting 270 or better miles per charge now. That's more than my compact cargo van. Expected to hit 500 miles per charge or more within a couple of years.
2. Lack of charging stations for long road trips. Not anymore. They are everywhere. There are apps to chart your course form charging station to charging station across the entire country now. This isn't an issue at all for daily driving since you charge at home. While at home under normal daily circumstances, you start every day with a full charge. No more gas station stops ever. Have you seen the lines at Costco or Sam's Club lately?
3. Long charging times. Some of the super chargers now give you an 85% charge in 20 minutes. It takes longer than that for me to potty the dogs, eat, buy fuel and potty myself on long road trips. Again, not an issue anyway for normal daily driving.
4. Battery longevity. Tesla model Y has a battery that is expected to last 300,000-500,000 miles. 500,000-800-000 is expected soon. I know that it exists in rare cases, but I've never had ANY vehicle come close to lasting 300,000 miles.
5. Initial cost. Some EVs are selling in the $30K-$40K range now. Same as any other car.

When I factor in that I never have to stop for fuel in some seedy area, never have to plan a fuel stop into my day since it charges every night at home, never have to do an oil change again, I get free electricity from a solar system that I put in 12 years ago, minimal maintenance time and costs since there is no engine to service, vehicle longevity (I buy cars and use them until they die...)... Someone tell me the down side? I'm aware of the environmental impact of mining the battery components, but is that worse than the environmental impact of oil drilling, refinement, transportation and use as we burn gasoline and diesel by the billions of gallons a day?

People have said: "What if the power grid goes down? Then how will you charge it?" I have solar, and I have four generators. I then ask them: "If the power grid goes down, how will you pump gas at the station. Those are electric gas pumps. Will the gas stations even be open if the power grid goes down?"

Shoot me down if I'm wrong about any of this. Educate me. Why should I not get an EV? Why should anyone not get one?


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## KarenSoCal (Mar 9, 2022)

Tom said:


> Why should I not get an EV? Why should anyone not get one?


Your arguments are valid, and I agree with you with 2 exceptions.

I recently read a diary of 2 guys road tripping cross country from Atlanta to CA in an EV. Of course, now I can't find that specific article, but the trip was done in 2021.

Their biggest snafu was in western TX, trying to get to Albuquerque. The gauge said they had enough charge for 200 miles, and they were only 100 miles away. They forgot one major point...it was about 20°, and we all know that batteries hate the cold. Now, those of us in SoCal are spoiled in that regard, but do you really want to HAVE to factor in the cold when going somewhere?

The 2nd part of their problem was that there were NO charging stations. West TX is pretty bleak when it comes to services, and they just haven't caught up to the EV's.

When the travellers finally drifted to the side of the road, they began calling roadside assistance, and discovered that the 1st 4 places they tried said "We don't tow Teslas!" They knew how, but won't because of the picky owners.

Finally a tow service was located, but the 2 had been on the shoulder for around 6 hours in 20° with no heat, freezing their b***s off. (That's "butts"...I need to watch my self-censorship...I make things worse! )

So if you are absolutely positive you won't take it to NM, or NoCal, or Denver, or...you get the idea.

I do think EV's will be the _only_ car we can buy within the next 5-8 years_. _Guess we'd all better get ready.


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## turtlesteve (Mar 9, 2022)

The features you want all exist individually but not in combination. The cars that have good range, long battery life, fast charging are not $30-40k. And the affordable ones don’t have the necessary features. 

One more note is that long term, the cost to charge at a station will be market price and much more than the electricity cost. Realistically you’ll only save that money if slow charging at home. And, gas tax will inevitably be converted to mileage tax.

Once all these features exist on the same car (and they will in 5-10 more years), it will be hard to argue against buying them.


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## jaizei (Mar 9, 2022)

They're more or less unserviceable by "normal" people
"Bricking" and not being able to move them without tow truck
Electricity is a mystery for most people and there is/would be a learning curve understanding different chargers, plugs, etc.


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## KarenSoCal (Mar 9, 2022)

turtlesteve said:


> And, gas tax will inevitably be converted to mileage tax.


The powers that be are planning to charge mileage tax for every mile driven in San Diego County. This harebrained idea is supposed to get people to take public transportation ("conveniently located near you!") for all trips in the city.

This is planned concurrently with a major upgrade to the public transport system, estimated cost in the Billions!


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## Maro2Bear (Mar 9, 2022)

I think the “cold weather effect” on. EV batteries & range is just something one takes into account. Just like anything/everything else in life.









Cold Temperatures Affect an Electric Vehicle's Driving Range - Consumer Reports


Consumer Reports lets you know whether cold temperatures affect an electric vehicle’s driving range. The cold can reduce an unplugged EV’s range by about 20%.




www.consumerreports.org


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## mark1 (Mar 9, 2022)

the metals in electric car batteries i don't believe are produced in the united states ? i read if every car in the US had a an electric battery it would be 4.5 billion lbs of lithium , in 2020 182million lbs of lithium was produced worldwide ....... mining lithium is environmentally very unfriendly , it's been opposed by conservation groups in the US already , previous admin pushed for it ....got to think "supply demand" , battery prices might look a bit different than they do currently ..... not to mention the other materials needed manganese , cobalt and nickel ,they are subject to market pricing just as oil ., we buy a lot of nickel where i work , i seen it go from $7 per pound to $24 per pound in months ....... i believe china might be the #1 producer of raw materials for electric car batteries , that doesn't sound safe ........ not sure the national security safety narrative i'm currently seeing on the news is a good argument for getting rid of fossil fuels ? they are trying to put windmills in lake erie , there is an environmental group suing to stop it , didn't get all the details aside from killing migratory birds , i did learn each windmill contains 700 gallons of oil that needs renewed every 10months , and leaking oil is not uncommon ............


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## MEEJogja (Mar 9, 2022)

jaizei said:


> They're more or less unserviceable by "normal" people
> "Bricking" and not being able to move them without tow truck
> Electricity is a mystery for most people and there is/would be a learning curve understanding different chargers, plugs, etc.


These are valid concerns. The 'smartness' of the vehicles and the fact they are EVs should be separate issues though. Manufacturers like Tesla bricking vehicles if a non Tesla part is fitted is disgusting and flies in the face of 'right to repair'. They are also not surprisingly trying to get you onto subscription pricing left right and center. All bad for consumers.

That is not related to the fact they are EVs though. In fact most of the things you do when servicing a vehicle these days are irrelevant with an EV. timing belts, oil and coolant changes etc. They need much less maintenance. 

Funnily enough my mother had a relatively new mini cooper a few years ago and it needed new brake pads. I bought the replacement brake pads and went to do it one day. Long story short, it is engineered in such a way that in order to free the old brake pads, you must destroy the sensor which tells you that you need new brake pads. If you do not replace the sensor then the dash will constantly flash errors and basically make driving it a horrible and frustrating experience.

This shitty behaviour is made easier with technology, but that technology is being implemented on vehicles regardless of the motor.


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## Blackdog1714 (Mar 10, 2022)

I am waiting for more truck options


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## jeff kushner (Mar 10, 2022)

You guys know I'm not jaded against electric, I even spent my own money to buy a couple of robots to cut my grass......in fact I wanted electric transportation so badly, I did the research since the 80's, every new breakthrough, every new chem comp, every new physical solution....but here's where we are today since we now have 30+ years of History............and for the sake of discussion, we'll leave Tesla out of it....but through everyone's smoke and mirrors(and there's a lot of smoke and mirrors), here's where I see it though my "objective" eyes;

If you are 25, buy electric when the dollars make sense, your life is screwed anyway in every possible way compared to how ours was at 25.....too bad for you, period! (PM me to know why if you ain't figured it out, I'm not causing trouble here again...lol)

It's no longer about range, noise, pollutants or climate of sustainability or any of that....it was at one time or another, but not anymore......wait 10 years, they will GIVE you that electric car just like that are GIVING you that APPLE phone.....keep in mind, Iphone came out in '07 and they have been giving them away for 5 yrs. That is how lucrative being nailed to your butt is. 


Call Nissan or Honda or Toyota or GM RIGHT NOW. go ahead, grab the phone with the other hand, we'll wait while you get them on the line................................

while we wait, lets learn that while "expected to last 300K miles or ten years" can also mean 42K and ten years...its now ten years- you are out of battery warranty and you've only driven 42,000 miles.....

OR use this time to look up used Electric cars to see total mileage vs remaining bat cap when listed(never is- amazing how that works, right? 

ring ring;

Ask the Service manager how much is cost to replace the 10 year old battery in the otherwise stellar & perfect condition car you have, be it a Leaf, Insight, Prius or Volt..................*$17,000 and UP* was the numbers I've read. Are you FKM??? Think you're a "economist" now or a sap?

Isn't it interesting that to make 10 mil in profit, @15k per car on a replacement battery, they only have to service 666 cars....but I'm not conspiracy theorist....I just do numbers.....LOL 

Now, does anyone remember Apple getting caught intentionally reducing battery capacity to force upgrades? 

Does it make you feel " all warmy inside" knowing your battery and your car can be controlled remotely by the very company that will be selling you a new one, on THEIR time, by their" hyper concerned" employees?

*It isn't the car that matters anymore Tom*....*.it's the end game*! Jeez guys, it isn't that hard, this group is smarter then this!


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## Maro2Bear (Mar 10, 2022)

Now, does anyone remember Apple getting caught intentionally reducing battery capacity to force upgrades?

Yes….plus the printer ink cartridge scam too.
We watched a documentary on this whole little scheme recently, where they were programmed to auto fail & auto ship replacements Or not work with generic brands. 

 https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-2002-10-17-0210170287-story.html


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## Maggie3fan (Mar 10, 2022)

Tom said:


> Anyone else taking a more serious look at electric cars? .04 cents a mile IF you have to pay for the electricity. Free if you have solar (I do) or if you can get free charging while parked at work. .25 cents a mile on average for an average gasoline powered sedan in a state with average current gas prices. I calculated .43 cents per mile for my 6.0 liter diesel with CA prices, and diesel has gone up since then.
> 
> I've been talking about it and watching videos lately. All the problems that made people not want one have been getting eliminated.
> 
> ...


Hey Tom...there's a guy I am friends with at church. His company takes hot rods like mine and makes them electric. No thanks, but he says the Tesla EV is the best. For people like you or me is the range now is only 300 miles. Finding a charging station on the road is a problem now, more will be put in tho soon, as they are in progressively growing.


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## Blackdog1714 (Mar 10, 2022)

Also the big issue for me is range. I travel from Richmond to Akron,OH to visit family yearly and it's 422 miles. I have done it as quickly as 6 hours and average 7.5. With an EV I would have to stop to recharge and that would add a ton of time Not to mention the capital needed to charge at home after buying an EV- this 2022 where is my flying car


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## Maggie3fan (Mar 10, 2022)

jeff kushner said:


> You guys know I'm not jaded against electric, I even spent my own money to buy a couple of robots to cut my grass......in fact I wanted electric transportation so badly, I did the research since the 80's, every new breakthrough, every new chem comp, every new physical solution....but here's where we are today since we now have 30+ years of History............and for the sake of discussion, we'll leave Tesla out of it....but through everyone's smoke and mirrors(and there's a lot of smoke and mirrors), here's where I see it though my "objective" eyes;
> 
> If you are 25, buy electric when the dollars make sense, your life is screwed anyway in every possible way compared to how ours was at 25.....too bad for you, period! (PM me to know why if you ain't figured it out, I'm not causing trouble here again...lol)
> 
> ...


trouble maker...


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## Maro2Bear (Mar 10, 2022)

Yikes. I know batteries in general can be expensive, in fact they comprise the most expensive part of my DIY roof-top solar array package. The batts are 12v AGM 100 watt hour. Each batt (of 4) costs more than my solar panels. 

Anyhow, back to Jeff’s postings on Tesla replacement battery costs. Gee, who knew they were THAT much! No wonder I see lots of second-hand Teslas on the market…. The owners are prob buying new Teslas rather than pay for “just” a new battery.









Tesla Battery Replacement Cost Explained


How much does it cost to replace the battery in a Tesla Model S, 3, X or Y? What does parts & labor cost? Find out now!




www.findmyelectric.com





Was doing more reading & research on temp & range & charging stations…and range too!









It's 2022. Can You Finally Take a Road Trip in an Electric Car?


A 330-mile drive into the country doesn't seem like it should be trouble...right?




www.gearpatrol.com


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## Tom (Mar 10, 2022)

jeff kushner said:


> You guys know I'm not jaded against electric, I even spent my own money to buy a couple of robots to cut my grass......in fact I wanted electric transportation so badly, I did the research since the 80's, every new breakthrough, every new chem comp, every new physical solution....but here's where we are today since we now have 30+ years of History............and for the sake of discussion, we'll leave Tesla out of it....but through everyone's smoke and mirrors(and there's a lot of smoke and mirrors), here's where I see it though my "objective" eyes;
> 
> If you are 25, buy electric when the dollars make sense, your life is screwed anyway in every possible way compared to how ours was at 25.....too bad for you, period! (PM me to know why if you ain't figured it out, I'm not causing trouble here again...lol)
> 
> ...


Believe me when I say I hear you my friend, but here is a point to consider for our discussion: Do you believe these corporate shenanigans with "planned obsolescence" and other scams are not also happening with the completely computer controlled internal combustion engine cars? I don't like any of it, but I'm not ready to go be a hermit in the woods just yet, and that would be the only way to avoid these things that I can see.

Also, Are you saying the claims of 300,000-500,000 mile batteries are false? If they are not false, I wouldn't ever be replacing a battery. I've replaced car engines before, but I've never had a car last 300,000 miles, much less double that.


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## turtlesteve (Mar 10, 2022)

I am impressed by many things about Tesla, but their focus on self driving, “fluff” high end features and trying to block 3rd party repairs are a big turn off. 

What I really want is a home solar system, hardware now very affordable but the install costs are obscene (that part of the industry is a total racket).


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## Tom (Mar 10, 2022)

turtlesteve said:


> I am impressed by many things about Tesla, but their focus on self driving, “fluff” high end features and trying to block 3rd party repairs are a big turn off.
> 
> What I really want is a home solar system, hardware now very affordable but the install costs are obscene (that part of the industry is a total racket).


Look around a bit. Find a company without middle-men "used car salesmen" type people that come sit at your kitchen table and try to upsell you. I interviewed 5 companies before settling on one. The guy that sat at my kitchen table was also the company owner and one of the guys up on my roof. Each other company I talked to was ridiculous.


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## wellington (Mar 10, 2022)

Nope won't do it unless that's all that's left. Maybe if I wanted a car just for city driving I'd consider it. I drive to MI too much to worry about how far i can get before i have to sit and wait for a charge. Have not seen very many charging stations at gas stations either. 
Besides, I love my Jeep Wrangler to much too give it up!


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## wellington (Mar 10, 2022)

turtlesteve said:


> I am impressed by many things about Tesla, but their focus on self driving, “fluff” high end features and trying to block 3rd party repairs are a big turn off.
> 
> What I really want is a home solar system, hardware now very affordable but the install costs are obscene (that part of the industry is a total racket).


I know a few people that have solar. They still get a high electric bill and will be dead before they have it paid off.
I was quoted 50, 000 even if I paid cash. Wouldnt see any savings until after I was probably dead. It needs to be much cheaper then it is and I need my electric bull to be zero before I will get it.


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## ZEROPILOT (Mar 10, 2022)

I know that I'm going to be a minority.
I'm just a fan of internal combustion engines and I haven't been able to get over my dislike of EVs.
I like the mechanical parts, the smells, the sounds. All of it.
I have 3 old Kawaski two stroke motorcycles. These engines went out of favor in the early 80s. Too polluting. I've kept them because of how they make me feel. Like they are alive almost.
I know that electric vehicles may even be faster and have less maintenance needs. But to me they have no "soul".
I hope I never get so old that I won't have at least one gasoline powered vehicle in my garage. (Or a shed because gasoline is no longer being made)
I'm not trying to be insensitive to the future. An alternative needs to be found. And for more than one reason.
But you asked.


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## TheLastGreen (Mar 10, 2022)

wellington said:


> 50, 000


Fifty thousand! As in dollars? That's ridiculous. Here in SA we have loadsheding, (like now while I'm typing). So we installed solar, bought everything on our own, DIY as far as possible, paid for someone to install it and it cost us $4600.


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## jsheffield (Mar 10, 2022)

I'm interested in owning an EV at some point, but am happy to be a late adapter, letting the first dozen generations of EVs, and groups of EV-owners, work through the kinks and birthing struggles and growing pains before I dive in.

Jamie


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## wellington (Mar 10, 2022)

TheLastGreen said:


> Fifty thousand! As in dollars? That's ridiculous. Here in SA we have loadsheding, (like now while I'm typing). So we installed solar, bought everything on our own, DIY as far as possible, paid for someone to install it and it cost us $4600.


Yes as in 50,000 dollars and I don't have a big house. I do have a big electric bill though. Over 400 in the winter, tortoise shed is the main drain. Yes it is ridiculous. They also told us we would only pay delivery charge on our electric bill of like 30 to 50 bucks, which here in Illinois is also not true. 
Where Tom is, they buy his extra solar so he makes money from his, correct me @Tomif I got that wrong. Where I am, they won't buy only store it for my use but won't even buy what I might not use. I believe there is even a charge for them to store it. Not worth it yet where I am.


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## mark1 (Mar 10, 2022)

if electric cars are better and cheaper , it shouldn't take artificially increasing the cost of oil to sell them ........ if they are a better alternative they should sell themselves on an even playing field , shouldn't need subsidized with federal and state tax dollars ..........
*“build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door”*


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## Tom (Mar 10, 2022)

wellington said:


> I know a few people that have solar. They still get a high electric bill and will be dead before they have it paid off.
> I was quoted 50, 000 even if I paid cash. Wouldnt see any savings until after I was probably dead. It needs to be much cheaper then it is and I need my electric bull to be zero before I will get it.


You talked to one of those ridiculous companies with the middle men. I paid $30,000 for my system. I built it large enough to make more than I need. They pay me for the excess that goes back into the grid. It paid for itself in 5-6 years, and I put it in 12 years ago. My meter is running backwards right now.

Another way to do it is to simply get a loan form a bank or the solar company. Zero money out of pocket and instead of paying $300-400 for electricity, or in some cases $600-800, you pay $150-200 a month for your loan while your solar system generates free electricity.


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## Tom (Mar 10, 2022)

mark1 said:


> if electric cars are better and cheaper , it shouldn't take artificially increasing the cost of oil to sell them ........ if they are a better alternative they should sell themselves on an even playing field , shouldn't need subsidized with federal and state tax dollars ..........
> *“build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door”*


Mark, I agree with this whole-heartedly. I've been watching the EV market with interest for 20 years. The point of this thread was me saying that I think we are there. It took a lot longer than I thought it would or should, and for endless reasons I'll never comprehend, but the reasons to not get one are all evaporating. I think we are balancing at the tipping point now, and the advances coming in just the next two or three years will soundly tip the advantage to the EVs. And I say this without the gas price craziness going on. Even when gas was still reasonable, we were talking .04 cents a mile (or free), vs. .20-.30 cents a mile for gas powered vehicles. The current gas prices just make it more so.

I see tremendous resistance, trepidation and suspicion from most people I've asked about it. I'm obviously pretty sold on the idea, but I want to hear from the people who see it differently and why.


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## Tom (Mar 10, 2022)

jsheffield said:


> I'm interested in owning an EV at some point, but am happy to be a late adapter, letting the first dozen generations of EVs, and groups of EV-owners, work through the kinks and birthing struggles and growing pains before I dive in.
> 
> Jamie


Remember the EV1 in 1996? I do. Tesla started in 2003. Other makers have been slowly joining the queue, but its been slow going for sure. I see it the same way you do. I never buy a first model year vehicle just for this reason, but its looking more and more like the bugs are worked out. The recent improvements mentioned in post number one make me think it may be time to jump. Close to it, if not.

I need a cargo van, and it looks like that is at least a year or two away. The Ford Lightning looks promising in many ways, and it has two way charging. I can power my whole house off that truck for 3-10 days in the event the power goes out. It would be amazing to be able to power my house without having to run a gennie all day and night. They are advertising a "Pro" model workhorse type starting at $32,000. Could pop a camper shell on it and use it like a van, I suppose...


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## Okapizebra (Mar 10, 2022)

For me the issue would be charging. I live in an apartment complex that is old and doesn't have any EV charging parking spaces. So how do I charge my car at home? I imagine this would be an issue for many people as I'm sure a large portion of the population lives in an apartment building or something similar.


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## wellington (Mar 10, 2022)

Okapizebra said:


> For me the issue would be charging. I live in an apartment complex that is old and doesn't have any EV charging parking spaces. So how do I charge my car at home? I imagine this would be an issue for many people as I'm sure a large portion of the population lives in an apartment building or something similar.


Many many people live in apartment buildings and high rises here in Chicago. Our hospitals are about the only places with a few charging parking spots. Maybe 5 to 10 spots. The bad thing there, the people that use them are parking there for some time, not just the charging time.


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## wellington (Mar 10, 2022)

I think it's going to be quite a few years before they will sell this to enough people to make a difference. They started with the cart before the horse. They needed to get the charging figured out to the fastest it can be and then get enough of them all over the place so people would feel confident that they would always be able to charge up. 
A cross over or hybrid I think they are called one of those, that uses electric and gas is a better choice.


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## ZEROPILOT (Mar 10, 2022)

wellington said:


> Yes as in 50,000 dollars and I don't have a big house. I do have a big electric bill though. Over 400 in the winter, tortoise shed is the main drain. Yes it is ridiculous. They also told us we would only pay delivery charge on our electric bill of like 30 to 50 bucks, which here in Illinois is also not true.
> Where Tom is, they buy his extra solar so he makes money from his, correct me @Tomif I got that wrong. Where I am, they won't buy only store it for my use but won't even buy what I might not use. I believe there is even a charge for them to store it. Not worth it yet where I am.


Damn.
My A/C is cranked down to 73° 24/7 and I've got regular household stuff. Plus tortoise and fish pond and Chameleon electronics and my electric bill never excedes $130 a month


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## wellington (Mar 10, 2022)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Damn.
> My A/C is cranked down to 73° 24/7 and I've got regular household stuff. Plus tortoise and fish pond and Chameleon electronics and my electric bill never excedes $130 a month


My summer bill is around 240-260 without the AC on. I do have a hot tub that doesn't only raise the electric bill 30 some bucks like they say. Electric here not cheap. Hell nothing here is cheap. But I love Chicago anyway


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## ZEROPILOT (Mar 10, 2022)

wellington said:


> My summer bill is around 240-260 without the AC on. I do have a hot tub that doesn't only raise the electric bill 30 some bucks like they say. Electric here not cheap. Hell nothing here is cheap. But I love Chicago anyway


South Florida does have cheap gas.
It takes some of the sting out of the cost of homeowners insurance and the hurricane policy


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## Tom (Mar 10, 2022)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Damn.
> My A/C is cranked down to 73° 24/7 and I've got regular household stuff. Plus tortoise and fish pond and Chameleon electronics and my electric bill never excedes $130 a month


Its not uncommon for CA bills in summer with the AC running a lot to exceed $600-800 a month. And I get into that range during our coldest winter months too with all the tortoise heaters running so much.


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## Tom (Mar 10, 2022)

wellington said:


> I think it's going to be quite a few years before they will sell this to enough people to make a difference. They started with the cart before the horse. They needed to get the charging figured out to the fastest it can be and then get enough of them all over the place so people would feel confident that they would always be able to charge up.
> A cross over or hybrid I think they are called one of those, that uses electric and gas is a better choice.


The full size Dodge truck that will be coming out soon has that. Its all electric, but it has a small diesel or gas engine stuck somewhere in it that will power a generator and keep you driving if your battery runs low. I designed a compact car like this for a science project in high school. I put a small Briggs and Stratten engine in the trunk with an intake and exhaust vent. I had the batteries under the hood where the engine used to go. I did not know how to calculate how much electricity could be generated by such a small engine, and I guessed that it wouldn't work because of this and that is why no one ever made one in real life. I guess I was wrong. No... wait... I guess I was right!

The Chevy Volt is like this too. Its all electric for about 170 miles, if memory serves, and if you run out of battery, the gasoline engine kicks on and keeps you driving. Best of both worlds.

All the car manufacturers are launching EVs. New car companies are popping up all over too. Rivian, Canoo, and nobody had ever heard of Tesla not too long ago. Tesla is in its infancy compared to Ford.


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## jeff kushner (Mar 11, 2022)

I have a present for Z;


ZEROPILOT said:


> I know that I'm going to be a minority.
> I'm just a fan of internal combustion engines and I haven't been able to get over my dislike of EVs.
> I like the mechanical parts, the smells, the sounds. All of it.
> I have 3 old Kawaski two stroke motorcycles. These engines went out of favor in the early 80s. Too polluting. I've kept them because of how they make me feel. Like they are alive almost.
> ...





Enjoy the eye candy Z, we think alike! As you can still see in the background if you open the pic in a new tab to make it bigger, this is about half my garage...the little silver car goes on the left side. You should see the b4 pics for the 2 closest, both are very highly modified, I do my own work. #3 is '75 H2-100% Stock, #4 is '82 Yammy Turbo running 18psi w/ blowoff @22, #5 is my vstrom1000 rigged for hwy I ride to Vintage Days in Ohio on it.


iF WE CAN'T SERVE UP A GIFT oops, for a Mod, who can we do it for?



That done, keep in mind folks as we discuss things, that for thousands of years there have been two classes of information. Let me explain what I mean;

We all learned for instance that Columbus discovered/proved/braved that the Earth was round and he could have FALLEN off the edge................BS.

The Greek knew hundreds of years BC that the Earth was not only round, observed by lunar eclipses, they knew the size of it as well! With no ability to read, no access to books or education, the COMMON people didn't know so they relied on word of mouth, myths etc....a lack of info in other words..........

Yet we still learned nearly two thousand years later that some guy in 1492 had something to do with the shape of the planet?

I'm not so sure it's not still the same way today......just a little different.....

There are so many competing agendas, it's difficult to discern the truth since most arguments are built on partial truths. The "News" is now so loaded with personal opinion that the Geodesic station near the cemetery where Walter Cronkite is buried is reporting near-constant Richter activity as he rolls in his grave, so most of us will wait for the dust to settle knowing that there is risk in adopting early.


When you find people who have found a way to make huge sums of money by using YOU as a tool, one should be wary, don't you think?


FWIW- I use window shakers after learning the efficiency of them, gas heat and gas FP that I use most days in the winter..........I use year round budget billing and pay 226mo for a 3200sf and I use the tstat as a personal comfort unit. According to the bill, it's underwater by a few hundred so they will prob adjust it up to 250 or 270 soon. I keep it 72W and 70S...I like to be comfy.

6-800 a month? What does one get extra for that? Sparkles, ouch?


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## jeff kushner (Mar 11, 2022)

I'm breaking all kinds of forum protocols by double posting but you guys are asleep and now I'm at work, 1st couple emails out and have a cup of coffee, Toms post reminded me of that 1st Tesla......I almost bought one....it was *96-THOUSAND dollars*!!! & went 200 miles but I was drooling so badly over that beautiful sports car that my wife at the time had to drug me with her womanly ways to settle me down......I'm not against EV at all. Within a week, the price jumped to 108K.........naw.......it was a cool dream but, I mean, it's not a jetpack afterall! I would put that down in a heartbeat for a jp and figure out the $$ later!

EV Jetpacks......Eureka!


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## Maro2Bear (Mar 11, 2022)

Just watched this…forget the Lithium batteries….are Solid State the way to go?


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## KarenSoCal (Mar 11, 2022)

turtlesteve said:


> What I really want is a home solar system, hardware now very affordable but the install costs are obscene (that part of the industry is a total racket).


I used a company that I was quite pleased with. There were installation delays, but they were the fault of the county I live in. I have 22 310w panels.

As for my bill, as long as I was still paying the system off, I wasn't saving any money. Remember, I live in low desert...AC runs continuously, day and night, from May through September. No rooftop system is going to fully supply that load.

I got tired of paying more interest than principal on the loan, so I paid off the remainder. Last month, the electric company credited *me* with $9.00  With no loan payment, I can say the system is now saving me money.


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## ZEROPILOT (Mar 11, 2022)

jeff kushner said:


> I have a present for Z;
> 
> View attachment 341611
> 
> ...


Is that blue Kaw a KH500 or KH400?
The 400 is the only S or KH triple I've never owned.


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## jeff kushner (Mar 12, 2022)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Is that blue Kaw a KH500 or KH400?
> The 400 is the only S or KH triple I've never owned.


'75 S1 250 w/ Raised 350cc cylinders, 28mm flatslide carbs, wraparound ports, Jeff D in PA did the Countersunk squish heads for me and the tank is a NOS. Like I said, the first 2 are very highly modified......lots of fun Z.


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## Cathie G (Mar 12, 2022)

wellington said:


> I think it's going to be quite a few years before they will sell this to enough people to make a difference. They started with the cart before the horse. They needed to get the charging figured out to the fastest it can be and then get enough of them all over the place so people would feel confident that they would always be able to charge up.
> A cross over or hybrid I think they are called one of those, that uses electric and gas is a better choice.


My mother had a hybrid and I thought it was a really great idea. They switch back and forth. While it's using gas it charges the electric and switches back to electric when it's full. I think that's the best too. It'll do that even on the highway and you can't even feel the difference. It still takes something to produce the electricity to charge the batteries unless everything is solar power and that's a long way off.


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## ZEROPILOT (Mar 12, 2022)

jeff kushner said:


> '75 S1 250 w/ Raised 350cc cylinders, 28mm flatslide carbs, wraparound ports, Jeff D in PA did the Countersunk squish heads for me and the tank is a NOS. Like I said, the first 2 are very highly modified......lots of fun Z.


Is the H1 set up with reed valves or are those just carb adapters?


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## Pistachio's Pamperer (Mar 12, 2022)

Just bought a Jeep 4xe which is a hybrid. My electric is limited to basically 20-30miles. But I wanted a Jeep and the ability to try out the electric capability. I also wanted to have both gas and electric for now. We have a ton of chargers here surprisingly with it being the “sticks”—I live close to the Bristol raceway if that helps anyone. I love the instant horsepower and torque—which is a thing you will experience in any hybrid or electric. 
I having a small electric battery means charging for me is like an hour on a quick charging station and on typical wall plugin(like in yr house) it takes a few hours to charge. And I love degenerative braking which reminds me of driving a manual. For those that don’t know that braking helps put charge back to the battery and cuts down on yr usage,granted it’s only like 1-3% during driving but it’s still a savings. Foot comes off gas and vehicle slows down and eventually comes to almost a stop which is great around here with the curvy and hilly roads. 
I am totally going to another hybrid or full electric once my Acura is done. So I have been doing a ton of watching and research. There is stuff coming and the tech will only get better. As much as I hate to call the FORD electric “car” a MACH or a Mustang it is showing some real promise. 

There are apps that you can run on yr phone that show you where charging stations are or even help map yr trip taking charging into consideration. 

I watch the guys over at TFL truck on YouTube. They have multiple channels and are based out of Colorado. They now have a channel that is nothing but EV tech and are deadly honest about their experiences. They have gotten big enough that they get invited to car shows and other manufacturer promos. They are given vehicles to test by the manufacturers sometimes for days and sometimes for like a year. They put some of these vehicles through off-road and towing trials. They tow up the Ike in Colorado which is a really good test. Roman, Tommy(his son), Nathan, and Andre are good guys who I have actually met. 
They had nice experiences with RIVIAN but unfortunately I don’t know if rivian is gonna make it with production problems and price hikes. 
As for a van or such that’s probably going to be something that is going to be a ways off for the general public but something you will be able to possibly find if you connect to a dealership that sells “work” vehicles. Pray Fedex,ups, usps and Amazon push more and then I think you will see a better gain in the tech and vehicles available. 
If I get a chance you can bet I would drive a RIVIAN and I am interested in trying out the ford lightning.
Probably 2-5years unless the gas situation gets much worse before I will be seriously shopping. 
Right now if I was forced I would honestly be looking at a Hyundai as their batteries have the most bang for the buck. 
Just my two cents. 
-Meg


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## Maro2Bear (Mar 13, 2022)

Pistachio's Pamperer said:


> Just bought a Jeep 4xe which is a hybrid. My electric is limited to basically 20-30miles. But I wanted a Jeep and the ability to try out the electric capability. I also wanted to have both gas and electric for now. We have a ton of chargers here surprisingly with it being the “sticks”—I live close to the Bristol raceway if that helps anyone. I love the instant horsepower and torque—which is a thing you will experience in any hybrid or electric.
> I having a small electric battery means charging for me is like an hour on a quick charging station and on typical wall plugin(like in yr house) it takes a few hours to charge. And I love degenerative braking which reminds me of driving a manual. For those that don’t know that braking helps put charge back to the battery and cuts down on yr usage,granted it’s only like 1-3% during driving but it’s still a savings. Foot comes off gas and vehicle slows down and eventually comes to almost a stop which is great around here with the curvy and hilly roads.
> I am totally going to another hybrid or full electric once my Acura is done. So I have been doing a ton of watching and research. There is stuff coming and the tech will only get better. As much as I hate to call the FORD electric “car” a MACH or a Mustang it is showing some real promise.
> 
> ...



Is it really only 20-30 miles?
*
 “Just bought a Jeep 4xe which is a hybrid. My electric is limited to basically 20-30miles.”*


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## Tom (Mar 13, 2022)

As previously mentioned, I just lived through the gas cut off in Georgia last year when the Colonial Pipeline got shut down. One day we were all driving around like normal, and two days later there was no gas anywhere. It made me wonder, in these crazy times where anything is possible, has anyone considered what happens if gas runs out? What if there is no gas? Sounds crazy I know, but two years ago I thought it would be crazy to shut down all of society, force people to wear a mask all day, and force people to let themselves be injected with experimental RNA therapy in order to go to work or to a restaurant for a meal, but here we are...

It might be useful in such a scenario to have a vehicle that could recharge itself with solar power.


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## Pistachio's Pamperer (Mar 13, 2022)

I am also waiting on my solar bids. I have enough property here now to let them panel a good chunk. So house is gonna get some off grid capability hopefully. I also have my order in for a solar panel and converter that I will be able to use for the Jeep which is portable. 

And yes… unfortunately the Jeep only gets 20-30miles full electric before I am using gas. For now. I look for Jeep to increase this in all vehicles. The New York car show is coming and there are supposed to be major changes announced for Jeep and dodge EV vehicles. I also am hopeful that they have a retro fit solution to increase my batteries efficiency and storage capacity. 20-30 miles is also with a vehicle whose curb weight is over 5000lbs. And when towing I notice no difference in usage with 3000lbs behind me. My batteries are also so small they fit under the back seats and have only 18kwh storage. 

My driving locally is always 20-30miles one way. Then a charge. Then back home where I can plug back in. Jeep has monitoring systems and I have put about 400 miles on at this point and only 20 of those since the birth of the vehicle have been on the gas engine. We will see how it does. 
Right now I am pleased as punch because it’s doing what I wanted for me. It’s not for everyone and definitely not something that would be good for a long trip. 
-Meg


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## Mrs.Jennifer (Mar 14, 2022)

ZEROPILOT said:


> I know that I'm going to be a minority.
> I'm just a fan of internal combustion engines and I haven't been able to get over my dislike of EVs.
> I like the mechanical parts, the smells, the sounds. All of it.
> I have 3 old Kawaski two stroke motorcycles. These engines went out of favor in the early 80s. Too polluting. I've kept them because of how they make me feel. Like they are alive almost.
> ...


I hear ya! I am dedicated to cleaner energy, but I am going to miss the throaty purr of my Mercedes V6 when I have to replace it. I test drove a new one recently and 4 cylinders just doesn’t have that same sound…


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## Tom (Mar 14, 2022)

Mrs.Jennifer said:


> I hear ya! I am dedicated to cleaner energy, but I am going to miss the throaty purr of my Mercedes V6 when I have to replace it. I test drove a new one recently and 4 cylinders just doesn’t have that same sound…


Cleaner energy is a side benefit for me. That isn't what drives me. What I care about is pragmatism and practicality. I'll recap the good points as I see them:
1. 300 mile range, to be increasing to 500+ over the next few years.
2. 300,000+ mile battery longevity. 800,000 in some cases.
3. Much less maintenance. No oil changes, no coolant, etc...
4. Free electricity at home from my solar panels. More free electricity from some of the places where I work.
5. .04 cents a mile for electricity in the event I ever have to pay for it, in comparison to .25 - .43 cents a mile for gasoline or diesel.
6. Quiet operation. (My diesel is SOOOOOO loud...)
7. No fumes. I HATE gas and diesel fumes. Blechhh.
8. I love it when I fill up with gas and my car is sitting in the driveway with a full tank. So much potential. With an EV, I will start EVERY day with a "full tank" for FREE!
9. I hate everything about having to fill my tank. Wasting time, having to search out a station, waiting in line (Costco and Sam's Club), stinky fumes, oil and gas on my shoes so that I have to smell it when I get back in the car, gas droplets on my hands, the expense, the exposure to potential criminals while I'm sitting there pumping. Think about it... Never having to stop and spend money at a gas station ever again. You "re-fuel" at home while you sleep.
10. Power and acceleration. Most EVs are damn fast. Not all, but many of them are.
11. Nobody on either side of the political spectrum wants polluted air and water. Yes I know that some states still burn coal to produce electricity, but many people now have solar panels at home. I'm also aware of the environmental impact of mining the materials to make the batteries, but is that worse than the environmental impact of drilling, refining, transporting, burning, and sometimes spilling oil all over the world?


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## jeff kushner (Mar 15, 2022)

I think you summed it up pretty well Tom, even if we quibble on a couple quants, you have done a nice job of reaching the top of the tree instead of just grabbing the low hanging stuff, well done!

I think we'd also pretty much agree that it would be great if it were cut & dry.

All go-fasters" know this truism by now;

There is no substitute for max available torque at rpm #1, none at all. We can feather that power, tailor it to how we want it applied.....yeah,,,,,power on tap is the cats meow to me too! 


I wish businesses had done it on their own though and not sought out Gvmt $$ and it was simply a business enterprise and not some "cause" that seems to have been leveraged by those with a far different agenda than simply getting rich.

I simply do not trust.................I was not born this was, they taught me by repetition.


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## Markw84 (Mar 15, 2022)

Just a few points to consider:

The mileage range you quote (and manufacturers quote) is "around town" driving. the constant high speed driving, with no braking, of a long trip will dramatically reduce that range. The sweet spot for EVs is local, shorter trips around town.

The 4¢ cost/mile you are using is based upon 11¢/kWh electricity. In California, it is currently 4 times that rate. I know you have solar that produces enough, but my solar, and many solar systems, do not overproduce, but simply lower the demand during midday. Charging an EV is normally overnight, when solar is not generating. Battery storage would be needed. If counting the overproduction the utility company "buys" from you to pay for nighttime use -- They really get you there. They only pay the rate for the "cost of the electricity itself". Your bill in California actually has 2 parts to the charge - the cost of the electriciy, and the cost of "delivery". With all the wildfires, etc. the utilities have dumped all their increases the past several years into the "delivery" fee. So the cost of electricity may be credited at perhaps 7¢/kWh while we actually pay 45¢ per kWh!!

Most people who have EVs tend to lease them. Buying one outright has caused many grief if they ever want to get rid of it or upgrade as EVs depreciate unbelievably fast. Technology is changing so fast that even 3 yr old EVs are pretty worthless.


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## Maggie3fan (Mar 15, 2022)

They have no such thing as long distance...an. area of 300 miles


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## Tom (Mar 15, 2022)

jeff kushner said:


> All go-fasters" know this truism by now;
> 
> There is no substitute for max available torque at rpm #1, none at all. We can feather that power, tailor it to how we want it applied.....yeah,,,,,power on tap is the cats meow to me too!


I'm with you and I have a quick stat for you in case you are not aware. My '92 CBR 600F2 made 88 hp, with a dry weight of 411 pounds, and did 0-60 in 3.1 seconds. Nothing on the road could beat it. Even million dollar super cars. Now, I need you to sit down... Tesla Model S Plaid: 0-60 in 1.9 seconds. In the real world on a real track with legitimate timing and scoring. I can't even fathom that. I drove a "regular" Model S in "sport mode", and it was like nothing I've ever experienced before.



jeff kushner said:


> I wish businesses had done it on their own though and not sought out Gvmt $$ and it was simply a business enterprise and not some "cause" that seems to have been leveraged by those with a far different agenda than simply getting rich.
> 
> I simply do not trust.................I was not born this was, they taught me by repetition.


I see this the exact same way, yet, if the numbers are correct, it works to my benefit. This was the reason for the thread. The numbers look great, but it is beginning to sound to good to be true. What's the catch, right?


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## Tom (Mar 15, 2022)

Markw84 said:


> Just a few points to consider:
> 
> The mileage range you quote (and manufacturers quote) is "around town" driving. the constant high speed driving, with no braking, of a long trip will dramatically reduce that range. The sweet spot for EVs is local, shorter trips around town.
> 
> ...


Thank you. This is the sort of thing I was looking for. Now we can see a downside. I can't decide of the pros outweighs the cons if I don't know all the cons.

- I hadn't considered the lack of regenerative braking in a long highway trip.
- My electric meter runs backwards all day, so it really doesn't matter what time of day I use the power. If I use the power during the day, the meter goes backwards slower. If I use the power at night the meter simply runs forward. Its still a function of how many kW hours generated per day and how many used. I'd have to hook up an EV and charge it daily for a few months to see if that would push me over the amount I generate during a given day.
- I tend to buy a vehicle and run it until it dies. Short term resale value has never been much of a factor in my decisions, but this is food for thought. I'm pretty sure that if I were to run an EV for 200,000 plus miles, it will be falling apart and breaking down just like any other type of vehicle would.


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## jeff kushner (Mar 16, 2022)

I also


Tom said:


> My '92 CBR 600F2 made 88 hp, with a dry weight of 411 pounds, and did 0-60 in 3.1 seconds. *Nothing on the road could beat it.*




Z, Don't you DARE! If I can leave it alone, *YOU* can leave it alone......- besides, it wasn't the point he was making which is the ONLY reason I'm letting it slide....sort of....<LOL>

sheepishly, I hand over the "Brass One's" award to you Tom......I can't compete with that brother, that's some kinda Bold!


I am of course, just having fun with friends........


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## jeff kushner (Mar 16, 2022)

Tom said:


> Thank you. This is the sort of thing I was looking for. Now we can see a downside. I can't decide of the pros outweighs the cons if I don't know all the cons.
> 
> - I hadn't considered the lack of regenerative braking in a long highway trip.
> - My electric meter runs backwards all day, so it really doesn't matter what time of day I use the power. If I use the power during the day, the meter goes backwards slower. If I use the power at night the meter simply runs forward. Its still a function of how many kW hours generated per day and how many used. I'd have to hook up an EV and charge it daily for a few months to see if that would push me over the amount I generate during a given day.
> - I tend to buy a vehicle and run it until it dies. Short term resale value has never been much of a factor in my decisions, but this is food for thought. I'm pretty sure that if I were to run an EV for 200,000 plus miles, it will be falling apart and breaking down just like any other type of vehicle would.


The "lease" equation is an interesting one.....and one I hadn't considered. I saw the problem of validating old, worn batteries and assigning value, hacks to enable fraud and other bad behaviors but because I "buy", I didn't know what I don't know about leasing to reduce those risks. There are other parts of that equation so I appreciate others pointing them out.... thanks Mark......the beauty of the forum.


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## Maggie3fan (Mar 16, 2022)

jeff kushner said:


> The "lease" equation is an interesting one.....and one I hadn't considered. I saw the problem of validating old, worn batteries and assigning value, hacks to enable fraud and other bad behaviors but because I "buy", I didn't know what I don't know about leasing to reduce those risks. There are other parts of that equation so I appreciate others pointing them out.... thanks Mark......the beauty of the forum.


One of the guys at my church takes classic hot rods like my IROC and for $45k turns it into an electric hot rod...he owns a Tesla...I would be so restricted at 300 miles. What the heck good is a car you can't just get in and go...???


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## Tom (Mar 16, 2022)

jeff kushner said:


> Z, Don't you DARE! If I can leave it alone, *YOU* can leave it alone......- besides, it wasn't the point he was making which is the ONLY reason I'm letting it slide....sort of....<LOL>
> 
> sheepishly, I hand over the "Brass One's" award to you Tom......I can't compete with that brother, that's some kinda Bold!
> 
> ...


Oh, I phrased that poorly... I meant no CAR on the road could beat it. Certainly none ever did, and they sure tried. I had friends that used to build street racing hot rods, and they couldn't keep up at 0-60. Quarter mile was a different story with a few of those... but my point was that the model S Plaid is darn fast.


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## Tom (Mar 16, 2022)

maggie3fan said:


> One of the guys at my church takes classic hot rods like my IROC and for $45k turns it into an electric hot rod...he owns a Tesla...I would be so restricted at 300 miles. What the heck good is a car you can't just get in and go...???


Doesn't your fuel tank eventually reach empty? You have to stop and refill it, right? How long do those stops take if you go get some food, stretch your legs, potty your dogs, potty yourself, etc...? My stops take 20-40 minutes on average. I just drove to New Mexico for a job last week. We spent about 80 minutes total for all the stops we did for fuel and food and potty breaks. The super chargers take your batteries to an 85% charge in as little as 20 minutes, and they are working on making that even faster. It is now easy to drive cross country in an EV and there are apps that will plot the whole course for you from charging station to charging station. The number of charging stations is expected to triple in the next few years.

Now imagine that "fill up" cost about 90% less... Imagine paying .04 cents a mile instead of .25-.43 cents a mile. What did you used to pay for gas to go from OR to CA? Now figure that same distance at a fraction of the cost...

Also, not many people drive more than 300 miles a day on a regular basis. I only do it a few times a year. People who drive more than that for a living usually are not driving their personal regular passenger vehicles.


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## Maggie3fan (Mar 16, 2022)

Tom said:


> Doesn't your fuel tank eventually reach empty? You have to stop and refill it, right? How long do those stops take if you go get some food, stretch your legs, potty your dogs, potty yourself, etc...? My stops take 20-40 minutes on average. I just drove to New Mexico for a job last week. We spent about 80 minutes total for all the stops we did for fuel and food and potty breaks. The super chargers take your batteries to an 85% charge in as little as 20 minutes, and they are working on making that even faster. It is now easy to drive cross country in an EV and there are apps that will plot the whole course for you from charging station to charging station. The number of charging stations is expected to triple in the next few years.
> 
> Now imagine that "fill up" cost about 90% less... Imagine paying .04 cents a mile instead of .25-.43 cents a mile. What did you used to pay for gas to go from OR to CA? Now figure that same distance at a fraction of the cost...
> 
> Also, not many people drive more than 300 miles a day on a regular basis. I only do it a few times a year. People who drive more than that for a living usually are not driving their personal regular passenger vehicles.


You should know by now that I am a horse of a different color....No my tank generally does not reach empty...I have a small tank and start looking for a gas station around 1/2 tank...I absolutely understand your desire to save fuel. Until recently my car and I were fine. It's on it's third engine.... bigger better faster it's 6 yrs old. Nowadaze I'm pouring octane booster in and hoping I can make it to my sisters and home without spending too much money.


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## Tom (Mar 16, 2022)

maggie3fan said:


> You should know by now that I am a horse of a different color....No my tank generally does not reach empty...I


The point is that your current gas burning car has a limited range and must be refueled periodically. Same with an EV. What I don't understand is why people get so hung up on the fact that after a while, an electric car will run out of juice, when the cars we currently drive also run out of juice. Either one has to be refilled. 10 years ago, there were not too many places to refill an EV, while there were lots of places to refill gas burners. That situation has changed dramatically in recent years with tens of thousands of charging stations everywhere all over the whole country, and many more in the works.

There is an added benefit to the EVs that is often over looked though. While we seem to focus on the long drive that would carry us farther than a tank of gas or a charged battery can carry us, the vast majority of driving for most people in their personal cars (not work vehicles) does not carry them farther than a tank of gas or single charge during the course of a normal day.

I can't refuel with gasoline at my house. Well... I suppose I could go to a filling station with gas cans and bring them home, but I still have to go to a filling station one way or another since I don't have underground gas storage tanks and regular deliveries of gasoline coming to my house.

On the other hand, I am fully set up with electricity at my house and can re-charge an EV any time I want without having to go anywhere. Does anyone like going to the gas station? I don't. Leaving out the long distance road trips for a minute, a person NEVER has to go to a gas station ever again. Is this not appealing to you? Wouldn't it be nice to have a full "tank" every day with no thought of having to stop for gas, or plan your route and time frame to stop at that cheaper gas station across town? Man... I waste SO much time driving to gas stations and pumping gas... I drive around 100-150 miles a day every day between falconry and work and family fun stuff. This has me refueling almost every day, or every other at the least. Its very rare that I drive more than 200-300 miles in a day. I only do that once every month or two.

I suppose this is a case of ymmv. Your mileage may vary.


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## Blackdog1714 (Mar 16, 2022)

Tom said:


> Doesn't your fuel tank eventually reach empty? You have to stop and refill it, right? How long do those stops take if you go get some food, stretch your legs, potty your dogs, potty yourself, etc...? My stops take 20-40 minutes on average. I just drove to New Mexico for a job last week. We spent about 80 minutes total for all the stops we did for fuel and food and potty breaks. The super chargers take your batteries to an 85% charge in as little as 20 minutes, and they are working on making that even faster. It is now easy to drive cross country in an EV and there are apps that will plot the whole course for you from charging station to charging station. The number of charging stations is expected to triple in the next few years.
> 
> Now imagine that "fill up" cost about 90% less... Imagine paying .04 cents a mile instead of .25-.43 cents a mile. What did you used to pay for gas to go from OR to CA? Now figure that same distance at a fraction of the cost...
> 
> Also, not many people drive more than 300 miles a day on a regular basis. I only do it a few times a year. People who drive more than that for a living usually are not driving their personal regular passenger vehicles.


20-40 minutes for a pit stop? Fuel, no. 1, and food grab is limited to 15 max. Deuces are for work and home sir! Besides the tank and the eco mode in Ridgeline allow me to out drive my bladder!


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## Tom (Mar 16, 2022)

Blackdog1714 said:


> 20-40 minutes for a pit stop? Fuel, no. 1, and food grab is limited to 15 max. Deuces are for work and home sir! Besides the tank and the eco mode in Ridgeline allow me to out drive my bladder!


I know I know... It can certainly be done faster, but I prefer to sit down and eat. My meals tend to be condiment heavy and I hate trying to manage ketchup packets or hot sauce in the car.

Also, 99% of the time when I'm traveling I have dogs and/or other animals in the car with me, and that adds time to the pit stops too.


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## Pistachio's Pamperer (Mar 16, 2022)

*perks* Ridgeline???


That’s my baby I picked up in July of last year.. Love that truck. Wish I could have bought it in hybrid. 

Here in Tennessee I can even plug for free at certain places. Which is amazing. Being a Hilton diamond member most of my hotels also offer free plugs as well. Plugging into the charging points at the mall and the local groceries costs me a couple of dollars. 



-Meg


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## Blackdog1714 (Mar 16, 2022)

Tom said:


> I know I know... It can certainly be done faster, but I prefer to sit down and eat. My meals tend to be condiment heavy and I hate trying to manage ketchup packets or hot sauce in the car.
> 
> Also, 99% of the time when I'm traveling I have dogs and/or other animals in the car with me, and that adds time to the pit stops too.


We had a pomeranian years ago that was the best car dog ever. His bladder was 10-12 hours on hold and he was asleep in his spot before we got on the highway!


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## Blackdog1714 (Mar 16, 2022)

Pistachio's Pamperer said:


> *perks* Ridgeline???
> View attachment 341872
> 
> That’s my baby I picked up in July of last year.. Love that truck. Wish I could have bought it in hybrid.
> ...


RTL-E model and exactly the color and wheels! I have a Peragon aluminum tonneau cover and I am thinking about an ARE cap!


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## Pistachio's Pamperer (Mar 16, 2022)

Blackdog1714 said:


> RTL-E model and exactly the color and wheels! I have a Peragon aluminum tonneau cover and I am thinking about an ARE cap!


Mine is just the sport but I had a lot switched out. I hate chrome. I wanted the black out edition but couldn’t find one. Well let me rephrase that wasn’t traveling cross country to get or paying the crazy prices. I got a nice buy on mine. 

How do you like that cover??? That’s one of the ones I have been looking at! I want security but ease of taking off with a little work. And I don’t want one of the ones that goes into the bed box because I worry about rust and it takes up more room and can’t be taken off without a ton of work. 
-Meg


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## Blackdog1714 (Mar 16, 2022)

Pistachio's Pamperer said:


> Mine is just the sport but I had a lot switched out. I hate chrome. I wanted the black out edition but couldn’t find one. Well let me rephrase that wasn’t traveling cross country to get or paying the crazy prices. I got a nice buy on mine.
> 
> How do you like that cover??? That’s one of the ones I have been looking at! I want security but ease of taking off with a little work. And I don’t want one of the ones that goes into the bed box because I worry about rust and it takes up more room and can’t be taken off without a ton of work.
> -Meg


It is nice and I can still open the trunk to load groceries and even carry sheets of plywood! Takes a minute to get it off but it's not too complicated just a touch heavier than the fabric ones. It keeps the bed mostly dry but with the lines and body style of the Ridgeline that's pretty good. I got my warranty aftermarket after reading about it on the Ridgeline forum. The dealer does a ton of them a year and way cheaper than when I bought the truck.


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## Pistachio's Pamperer (Mar 16, 2022)

Blackdog1714 said:


> It is nice and I can still open the trunk to load groceries and even carry sheets of plywood! Takes a minute to get it off but it's not too complicated just a touch heavier than the fabric ones. It keeps the bed mostly dry but with the lines and body style of the Ridgeline that's pretty good. I got my warranty aftermarket after reading about it on the Ridgeline forum. The dealer does a ton of them a year and way cheaper than when I bought the truck.


Thank you for the reply and pictures. That really sets my mind at ease. Guess I will be making my appointment to get it done. I hope these local guys are good; they seemed knowledgeable when I spoke with them and are game to order and install pretty much everything I have talked to them about. If they are good then they will be doing my Jeep. 
-Meg


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## Maggie3fan (Mar 17, 2022)

Tom said:


> The point is that your current gas burning car has a limited range and must be refueled periodically. Same with an EV. What I don't understand is why people get so hung up on the fact that after a while, an electric car will run out of juice, when the cars we currently drive also run out of juice. Either one has to be refilled. 10 years ago, there were not too many places to refill an EV, while there were lots of places to refill gas burners. That situation has changed dramatically in recent years with tens of thousands of charging stations everywhere all over the whole country, and many more in the works.
> 
> There is an added benefit to the EVs that is often over looked though. While we seem to focus on the long drive that would carry us farther than a tank of gas or a charged battery can carry us, the vast majority of driving for most people in their personal cars (not work vehicles) does not carry them farther than a tank of gas or single charge during the course of a normal day.
> 
> ...


It's really very simple...I go on road trips in my car and traveled the road in my big truck...when I need gas in my car or in my diesel big truck, there's gas stations easily available and enuf truck stops. Your electric car can only go around 300 miles just like my IROC...but there's gas stations at almost every exit...you will not have charging stations like that for almost 6 years or more. So while the car is a good idea...I wouldn't invest my money just yet...You said something recently about New Mexico...you didn't drive an ev there...
Ok locally...honestly, I don't do much local driving, and when I do...I want speed, power andI have more fun driving the 4 miles to the Safeway than you will have driving all day...


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## Tom (Mar 17, 2022)

maggie3fan said:


> You said something recently about New Mexico...you didn't drive an ev there...


I would have if I had one. It was all those stops for $5 a gallon gas that made me really re-think the electric car idea and look into it again. My little mini cargo van only gets about 200 miles to the gallon and we had to stop five times each way. It sucked. My diesel van will get 500-600 mile to a 30 gallon tank on the highway, but then it costs $150, or more in CA, to fill it back up.

Here is another thought. I know a lot of people that rent a fuel efficient little car when they are going to go on a long distance road trip. They say they do it to save money on gas over their regular car, and also to keep the miles off of their car. If an EV is still impractical for long road trips due to a lack of charging stations in the area where a person is traveling, they could rent a car for the trip, and still reap the benefits of an EV for all of their regular daily driving. From what I read and watched, this just isn't an issue any more. When I get one, and start using it daily, I'll let you know what I learn.


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## ZEROPILOT (Mar 18, 2022)

jeff kushner said:


> I also
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Non motorcycle people. I mean non sport bike people have a different concept of speed.
My ZX14R can easily do 135 mph in 2nd gear. And in short order. And the exhaust note is a beautiful symphony.
Even an older. Slower bike is a rocketship compared to most 4 wheel vehicles.
And especially when you compare price.
Nine seconds on two wheels is less than 20k.


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## Tom (Mar 18, 2022)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Non motorcycle people. I mean non sport bike people have a different concept of speed.
> My ZX14R can easily do 135 mph in 2nd gear. And in short order. And the exhaust note is a beautiful symphony.
> Even an older. Slower bike is a rocketship compared to most 4 wheel vehicles.
> And especially when you compare price.
> Nine seconds on two wheels is less than 20k.


My CBR 600 did just over 100 in 2nd gear. I rode a few 1000s, but I can't imagine a race tuned 1400. And that Tesla Plaid beats it...


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## ZEROPILOT (Mar 18, 2022)

Tom said:


> My CBR 600 did just over 100 in 2nd gear. I rode a few 1000s, but I can't imagine a race tuned 1400. And that Tesla Plaid beats it...


What if you took just a small portion of that price difference and popped a turbo on the Kaw?
The truth is that Kawasaki is also getting into electric bikes. It IS the future.
But it's probably a future that I won't see or need to deal with.


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## ZEROPILOT (Mar 18, 2022)

Plaid.
Sounds like plain, white toast


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## Cathie G (Mar 19, 2022)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Plaid.
> Sounds like plain, white toast


Plaid can also be part of the name of a color of a paint  the paint is usually a dusty looking country color. Somehow that fits.


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## jeff kushner (Mar 21, 2022)

So Tom, I'm curious.....It appears that you have arrived at a place where it seems that you are comfortable enough to actually make a purchase. Are you looking at the new Lectrics out for this year or are you going to wait till the global economy settles?

"Alex, I'll take Plaid for $100

The answer is; "Plaid & 27 sweaters"

"What is; What Kerry wore on our 1st date?"


PS. I knew Z couldn't leave it alone, that's why I called attention to it.....to bait my buddy(aren't I a great friend?)...there isn't a Flashed ZX14 owner worldwide who was gonna leave that one alone, we got too much pride for that! <LOL>, thanks Z....that is one GD impressive machine you have, as is the CBR600....got to love "flickable"!


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## Tom (Mar 21, 2022)

jeff kushner said:


> So Tom, I'm curious.....It appears that you have arrived at a place where it seems that you are comfortable enough to actually make a purchase. Are you looking at the new Lectrics out for this year or are you going to wait till the global economy settles?
> 
> "Alex, I'll take Plaid for $100
> 
> ...


I really need a cargo van, and so far there isn't one on the market. I'm considering the F150 Lightning "Pro" model with a camper shell on it, but I really need the van. Ford is supposedly coming out with an electric transit, but they are talking $60-70K for that. The whole care market sucks right now and the prices are ridiculously high for everything.

I really have no use for a "sedan" type car. I drive a 4x4 Taco when I'm not in a cargo van, and my wife prefers SUVs with enough seats to haul a bunch of rug rats around, though we are quickly approaching the end of that era of our lives. Daughter will soon be driving herself, so a smaller SUV might become a possibility again soon.

I can't remember where that term (flickable) came from, but it sure applies. We used it frequently at the MX track to describe the lighter feel of the 250s over the heavier 450s in the air. I was able to "save it" several time on my 250 in situations where I'd have been on the ground with a fo fiddy fo sho. Likewise, I could throw that 600 back and forth through mountain S turns in ways that I couldn't with a 1000.


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## jeff kushner (Mar 21, 2022)

Flickable=RD350 any questions guys? Pretty certain even GOD wouldn't argue with that one! Lil Giant killer!

You can be pretty sure that anything "worth having" will be in the 70-80K range Tom, you know it. With questionable chips coming online now from some non-ISO sources after waivers were granted, a year or so might not be a bad wait time and might coincide with kids moving to college....ok, sorry to remind you of impending financial ruin...we all go through it....but the market and hopefully global issue will settle for you.


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## naturalman91 (Mar 23, 2022)

the more i travel the more I am considering a electric car. i really like the tesla's. over the past year alone I've driven across country twice ande made ton's of instate trips/right over the state line. Thats the only thing that concerns me is potentially not finding a charging station or finding a charging station but in a bad area. I've been into a lot of bad area gas stations in the past year and with gas at least i can get in and out instead of waiting for a charge.

been in a lot of ubers and such the last year too and quite a few have been electric cars and they are always nice but i think the nicest i've gotten into recently is a Honda accord hybrid one of the newer ones i don't think i've been impressed when just riding in a car as i was with that one.

worse to worse the cybertruck is coming lmao


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## Tom (Mar 23, 2022)

naturalman91 said:


> worse to worse the cybertruck is coming lmao


I prefer more of a "gray man" approach, but to each his own.


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## naturalman91 (Mar 23, 2022)

Tom said:


> I prefer more of a "gray man" approach, but to each his own.


yeah the cyber truck isn't for me personally either i don't like the look. i've been looking at a Ford E transit van they are pretty nice but the charge range is a little low for my needs


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## Pistachio's Pamperer (Mar 23, 2022)

Jeep parts are here!!!! Had to go meet the driver as he couldn’t get to my house.


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## Blackdog1714 (Mar 24, 2022)

Pistachio's Pamperer said:


> Jeep parts are here!!!! Had to go meet the driver as he couldn’t get to my house.
> View attachment 342243


They fit awful nice in your faux pickup truck! That sideways opening tailgate sold me on mine


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## Pistachio's Pamperer (Mar 24, 2022)

Blackdog1714 said:


> They fit awful nice in your faux pickup truck! That sideways opening tailgate sold me on mine


Tailgate. Trunk which is rather large. Spacious backseat with fold up seats. V-6. Decent gas mileage. Towing capacity is ok. Ability to haul quite a bit even without a trailer-that’s almost 500lbs of parts and the truck didn’t even feel like there was anything in it. AWD and sporty driving. Ability to throw it in sport mode and “shift” on my curvy hilly roads. Love!! 
I sooooo hope Honda makes a EV or hybrid version soon. And they leave alone the things that are great/good about it. 
-Meg


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## jeff kushner (Apr 6, 2022)

Say I didn't say this would be coming and when it does, the concept of simply pulling into a station and exchanging battery packs will make EV's viable to the general public................and here we are!

A rider swapping batteries at a Gogoro GoStation in Taipei in 2018.................we are just late to the development-party!


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## Pistachio's Pamperer (May 9, 2022)

Electric Ford E-Transit Custom van unveiled for the European market


Ford introduced an electric van called E-Transit Custom that's positioned below the full-size Transit. It was designed largely for the European market.




www.yahoo.com





Well maybe USA market will see them soonish?


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## Tom (May 9, 2022)

Pistachio's Pamperer said:


> Electric Ford E-Transit Custom van unveiled for the European market
> 
> 
> Ford introduced an electric van called E-Transit Custom that's positioned below the full-size Transit. It was designed largely for the European market.
> ...


I detest the Ford Motor company and will never do business with them again, but that van is pretty close to what I need. I wish Nissan would sell their E vans over here. They make one right now, but you can't get them here in the US. There are lots of cars available elsewhere that you can't get here. I remember seeing four door double cab Toyota trucks in South Africa in 1998, and complaining that we didn't have them here in the US. We eventually got them, but WTH?

236 mile range isn't great, but it sure beats the 100 mile range of the Nissan. I could make 236 work.


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## jeff kushner (May 9, 2022)

I was kinda hoping when I saw this thread revived was that someone bought one of the options out there

The inflated cost of gas will certainly hasten the switchover, exactly as was planned. I had an eye-opening dinner with a college roommate of Kerry's when we were out West a couple of weeks ago. It turned out that her husband was senior level old school Treasury Dept and we had a fantastic conversation. Closing 5 US refineries for bureaucratic reasons in the last 18 months will do things to the price of gas. 

Each Spring, one of my rituals is to uncover and start each of the motorcycles.....it would be much quicker if all I had to do was to plug them in! Of course, if we don't ride or otherwise use a lead-acid, it dies. When I was riding the vstrom around the country, I installed top grade batteries b/c I didn't want an equipment failure 600 miles from home in the mountains, at night, in the rain! LOL 

Now I have 2 cheapo's(2=$75 total for the turbo and Vstrom---cheapo's!) on order cause I stopped buying good batteries for bikes I don't often ride. I've tried every trickle charger out there and none will keep an unused lead acid, alive over a year or two of disuse.

Lithium's however are very different.....3 years of not running and when I turned the keys over the w/e, all of my lithium battery-equipped bikes were still charged and ready in the Kaw triples. Those bikes are perfect for lithium b/c they have no hidden drains like clocks and stuff. Lithium's haven't handled those things well over time in my garage. That's why the vstrom and turbo both have lead-acids, they have voltage drains and I don't ride them often enough anymore to keep the batteries alive so it doesn't pay to buy expensive ones.


To the money Gods....
I can't imagine soon buying an electric car w/o a battery warranty("battery insecurity" will become a marketing "thing")....invest now, those companies are going to get rich.

It's interesting that one mans antagonist is another's friend....why so angry at Ford Tom? I'm just curious, not trying to get into your business. We all have preferences in brands for various reasons and I think they are all pretty equal these days, more or less.


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## Pistachio's Pamperer (May 10, 2022)

Tom said:


> I detest the Ford Motor company and will never do business with them again, but that van is pretty close to what I need. I wish Nissan would sell their E vans over here. They make one right now, but you can't get them here in the US. There are lots of cars available elsewhere that you can't get here. I remember seeing four door double cab Toyota trucks in South Africa in 1998, and complaining that we didn't have them here in the US. We eventually got them, but WTH?
> 
> 236 mile range isn't great, but it sure beats the 100 mile range of the Nissan. I could make 236 work.



According to “leaks” dodge is working on it as well. Being their track record on the Jeep side of things I am betting it will be a cpl of years before they offer their dodge van in a completely electric version in the states. Seems almost they are testing under the Jeep line before really pushing on the dodge side. I think they are trying to keep towing and work-ability but also have a “good” range. 
After my experience with my 4xe, 90% of my mileage thus far being on the electric, I will be jumping if/when they offer “Magneto” - the full electric Jeep. 
And it has been spoken about at car shows and the dodge talks that they will be bringing back the Dakota (as electric to compete against Maverick) which will offer them a nice platform to build a van on. 
-Meg


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## ZEROPILOT (Jun 19, 2022)

jeff kushner said:


> I have a present for Z;
> 
> View attachment 341611
> 
> ...


That's a beautiful collection and you obviously have more room for storage than I do.
Nut and bolt restoration is admirable and probably best. But I'm a fan of the "period correct" modded bike. Like a TRACY BODIED H2 with a full Denco King Cobra set up. Lots of big metal flake, loud colors, Lester wheels, etc.
What I HATE (HATE) Is seeing what lazy people call a custom or a Cafe bike that is just some poor old machine with bobbed fenders, some rusted parts removed and the rest of the bike treated to a spray can paint job. 
Makes my skin crawl.


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