# A Petition to stop selling wild caught Russians !!! PLEASE SIGN



## pryncesssc

A friend of mine started this petition to get Petco and Petsmart to STOP selling wild caught Russian Torts. Please help the cause by signing this petition !! 

Thanks in advance 

http://www.change.org/petitions/pet...ught-russian-tortoises-agrionemys-horsfieldii


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## lynnedit

I'm in.


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## shellysmom

Awesome.


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## kanalomele

I already signed!


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## mattgrizzlybear

I'll sign it!


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## CourtneyAndCarl

The problem is that Petco and Petsmart aren't the ones that go out and catch them. And they also don't have any official "knowledge" of whether or not the tortoises are wildcaught. They get the tortoises from a company that just sends them. They don't tell them whether or not they were wildcaught, etc. So in short, going after the stores isn't going to work, you need to go after the distributor.


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## wellington

Signed


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## cemmons12

Im in also!


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## dmmj

I have a petition signed by anonymous people on the internet, I am sure petcio will get right on that.


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## Turtulas-Len

I would rather have them come here to be sold as pets, than being sent to China to be sold as food. Until the collection and export is stopped there is no good solution.


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## mctlong

dmmj said:


> I have a petition signed by anonymous people on the internet, I am sure petcio will get right on that.



Despite your cynicism (or maybe because it), I'm in.




Len said:


> I would rather have them come here to be sold as pets, than being sent to China to be sold as food. Until the collection and export is stopped there is no good solution.



Yes, being sent to China is horrible fate. 

It would also be nice to see some tougher regulations on shipping conditions to the US.


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## StudentoftheReptile

futureleopardtortoise said:


> The problem is that Petco and Petsmart aren't the ones that go out and catch them. And they also don't have any official "knowledge" of whether or not the tortoises are wildcaught. They get the tortoises from a company that just sends them. They don't tell them whether or not they were wildcaught, etc. So in short, going after the stores isn't going to work, you need to go after the distributor.





dmmj said:


> I have a petition signed by anonymous people on the internet, I am sure petcio will get right on that.



This is precisely why I chose not to sign it. Petitions rarely accomplish anything, especially in matters like this.

Don't get me wrong, I feel for the tortoises, and yes, CB is better. But these companies do not see long term. They don't care about preserving wild populations of RTs in Europe (they certainly don't care about preserving wild populations of green anoles here in the U.S.!). All they care about it money, plain and simple.

The stores themselves have very little control on where and who they order from. They order animals from vendors & dealers approved by their company. And right now, both companies are perfectly fine with sub-par animals.



No offense to the OP's friend, but here's several reasons why this petition is futile.

First of all, he addressed to both companies. How does he plan to present this petition to them. He should have created a separate petition for each company.



> Petsmart & PetCo have been selling wild caught Russian tortoises for years now. It's not sustainable and they are not "farmed" as they are often advertised. Wild caught tortoises have different growth on their carapace when compared to captive raised animals. It's easy for people familiar with raising tortoises to identify wild caught tortoises. These animals are taken from the wild overseas and often are sick and harboring parasites. I have witnessed the warehouses these animals are held in prior to export to the USA and it is deploreable! The tortoises are held in warehouses in crates all piled on top of each other prior to export and if one tortoise is sick they often all become sick. Just imagine hundreds of thousands of tortoises piled on top of each other and upside down without being able to flip over. I visit both petstores (PetSmart and PetCo) in my city and other cities frequently and



Secondly, sure most of us diehard tortoise hobbyists know, but is any of this provable in a court of law? We need evidence: paperwork, photos of the conditions. I also would leave out editorials like "it is deploreable!" or "just imagine this or that" (not to mention use a spell check).



> often see them with RNS (runny nose syndrome),



"Runny nose syndrome?" Is that a common term in the tortoise community? I have yet to hear it. Perhaps he should have stuck to more accurate medical terms like respiratory illnesses.



> Employees have told me many times that the animals are not eating.



Again, evidence is needed...maybe not now, but later.



> I realize the profit on captive animals that are raised up to 4" shell length (the legal size) do not offer the same profit potential as cheap wild caught animals but I believe customers would pay more for healthy animals that do not require a trip to the vet immediately after purchase!



If that were the case, then there would be no need for this petition.  On the contrary, most customers opt for the cheapest route. The "quality over quantity" crowd is in the minority.



> They, together, are wiping out an entire species from the wild.



Once more, evidence?


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## Jacqui

Len said:


> I would rather have them come here to be sold as pets, than being sent to China to be sold as food.



Ditto, but being used any where as food not going to single out just China. At least this way they have a chance to live and to pass on their genes.


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## Kerryann

Jacqui said:


> Len said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would rather have them come here to be sold as pets, than being sent to China to be sold as food.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ditto, but being used any where as food not going to single out just China. At least this way they have a chance to live and to pass on their genes.
Click to expand...


Also agreed, but I do know that some suffer as pets too  In this day and age how can people not google some stuff and care for their animals??? Before we rescued betty I had combed this site and had her food and cage requirements and the very basics down. Her previous owner had her for four years and never did that much.


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## Jacqui

Kerryann said:


> Also agreed, but I do know that some suffer as pets too  In this day and age how can people not google some stuff and care for their animals??? Before we rescued betty I had combed this site and had her food and cage requirements and the very basics down. Her previous owner had her for four years and never did that much.



Because of several reasons, such as most folks trust what they are told or see at Pet stores, by breeders, at expos, at Zoos, by Vets, ect.., To get the real answers you need to read thoughts from several people/sites and then work it to fit you, not just follow blindly. Most folks fail to do a more complete research. Books are often old and out of date. We humans are out of date too, for many of us we may not have a computer, use a computer, or even think to look on line for stuff.


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## LuckysGirl007

I just signed! They need 59 more!


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## CourtneyAndCarl

Jacqui said:


> Kerryann said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also agreed, but I do know that some suffer as pets too  In this day and age how can people not google some stuff and care for their animals??? Before we rescued betty I had combed this site and had her food and cage requirements and the very basics down. Her previous owner had her for four years and never did that much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because of several reasons, such as most folks trust what they are told or see at Pet stores, by breeders, at expos, at Zoos, by Vets, ect.., To get the real answers you need to read thoughts from several people/sites and then work it to fit you, not just follow blindly. Most folks fail to do a more complete research. Books are often old and out of date. We humans are out of date too, for many of us we may not have a computer, use a computer, or even think to look on line for stuff.
Click to expand...


I would have to agree... I am one of the few people that works in the petstore that I do that is completely okay with telling someone "I have no idea". Most of us either fall back on the minimal "training" we got on a computer that gave all kinds of outdated or just plain wrong info, and some people just make stuff up. I was quite surprised and honestly, pretty flattered the other day when I told someone that asked me something about cat food "To be honest I have no clue" and she responded with "you have no idea how much I appreciate your honesty". Just reminds me that so many people take everything we petstore employees say to heart and that most of us really have very minimal knowledge on a lot of subjects.


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## Tom

Have you all gone mad? Isn't it enought that the government wants to ban everything and take our pets away and now you want to HELP them do it???

By all means take steps to ensure that all imported and captive bred animals are well cared for and housed properly, but this is a lot of misguided emotion, albeit with good intentions.

There is nothing wrong with importing farmed or wild caught tortoises. NONE of us would have ANY tortoises if wild caughts were not allowed. We can all agree that they should be collected and shipped better. We can all agree that there should be a limit on how many can be taken from the wild annually, but good lord, trying to make people NOT be able to sell them anymore? How many fewer people would be in to tortoises if you couldn't go buy one from a pet store. Thats where I got my first turtle. It was a western box turtle way back in 1979 and I'm pretty sure it was wild caught. How different would the tortoise world be if me, and thousands of others like me, had never gotten in to tortoises because they weren't readily available.

As Mike pointed out, that petition is full of all sorts of speculation and misinformation. If someone wants to start a petition asking the chain pet stores to house, feed and care for their tortoises better, I will gladly sign up and even help out. This petition on the other hand goes way too far. Pryncesssc, does your friend have a large colony of captive bred Russians the are producing lots of babies to help fill the void of the ones that he/she proposes not be imported or sold?


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## ra94131

Tom said:


> Have you all gone mad? Isn't it enought that the government wants to ban everything and take our pets away and now you want to HELP them do it???
> 
> By all means take steps to ensure that all imported and captive bred animals are well cared for and housed properly, but this is a lot of misguided emotion, albeit with good intentions.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with importing farmed or wild caught tortoises. NONE of us would have ANY tortoises if wild caughts were not allowed. We can all agree that they should be collected and shipped better. We can all agree that there should be a limit on how many can be taken from the wild annually, but good lord, trying to make people NOT be able to sell them anymore? How many fewer people would be in to tortoises if you couldn't go buy one from a pet store. Thats where I got my first turtle. It was a western box turtle way back in 1979 and I'm pretty sure it was wild caught. How different would the tortoise world be if me, and thousands of others like me, had never gotten in to tortoises because they weren't readily available.
> 
> As Mike pointed out, that petition is full of all sorts of speculation and misinformation. If someone wants to start a petition asking the chain pet stores to house, feed and care for their tortoises better, I will gladly sign up and even help out. This petition on the other hand goes way too far. Pryncesssc, does your friend have a large colony of captive bred Russians the are producing lots of babies to help fill the void of the ones that he/she proposes not be imported or sold?



I could not agree with this post more.


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## dmmj

So this petition person is gonna submit an online petition with only 200 people? I was expecting at least 100,00 people pet co and pet smart won't take anything seriously with only 200 people.


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## Neal

I assume this petition is only intended to go to the executives at Petco or Petsmart and not any sort of government body?

I really think this type of thing does a disservice to the hobby. I've said before that I think Petco and Petsmart are great resources to introduce people to the tortoises, despite the housing conditions they keep the tortoises in. As was said in another post, why not try to gear this type of thing at educating the executives at these retail pet stores enough to make changes to the way they house their tortoises? I'm a little concerned at the precedent this might set for other groups and organizations completely against keeping any type of domestic animal.


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## cemmons12

Tom said:


> Have you all gone mad? Isn't it enought that the government wants to ban everything and take our pets away and now you want to HELP them do it???
> 
> By all means take steps to ensure that all imported and captive bred animals are well cared for and housed properly, but this is a lot of misguided emotion, albeit with good intentions.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with importing farmed or wild caught tortoises. NONE of us would have ANY tortoises if wild caughts were not allowed. We can all agree that they should be collected and shipped better. We can all agree that there should be a limit on how many can be taken from the wild annually, but good lord, trying to make people NOT be able to sell them anymore? How many fewer people would be in to tortoises if you couldn't go buy one from a pet store. Thats where I got my first turtle. It was a western box turtle way back in 1979 and I'm pretty sure it was wild caught. How different would the tortoise world be if me, and thousands of others like me, had never gotten in to tortoises because they weren't readily available.
> 
> As Mike pointed out, that petition is full of all sorts of speculation and misinformation. If someone wants to start a petition asking the chain pet stores to house, feed and care for their tortoises better, I will gladly sign up and even help out. This petition on the other hand goes way too far. Pryncesssc, does your friend have a large colony of captive bred Russians the are producing lots of babies to help fill the void of the ones that he/she proposes not be imported or sold?



Well that makes good sense Tom. Sometimes we just want to help our shelled friends so badly that we may do the wrong thing to try and help them. Guess we learn from our mistakes. But one thing I was thinking is that there are so many breeders now that I feel like they could get the ones they want to sell from them now a days. And the biggest problem I see is that they need to really learn how to take proper care of them and then they could give care sheets to the buyers. I wish this would happen anyways... Have a good day!


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## Tom

Chris, they do give out care sheets, but different people do it different ways. Some "expert" told them that tortoises should be housed on calcisand, given those death trap water bowls and housed all together regardless of species or origin. I think Neal's suggestion of educating these people is the way to go, and all this effort and energy should be spent trying to achieve that.

And Russians can be tricky to breed. Even for the people who have success, each female only produces a few babies a year. There is nowhere near enough captive breeding here in the states to meet the demand. I wish there was and I'm laying the foundation to start making my contribution right now. When I'm ready to start I'm going to need to be able to get the foundation stock. If the animal rightists of the world are successful, I will have to run around buying up all the captive bred babies I can find and then wait a decade for them to reach maturity and start producing.


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## StudentoftheReptile

It kinda goes back to another discussion I recall. I believe it was Tom, maybe it was Mark or Neal...I can't remember...anyway

Instead of focusing on things we really have no chance of changing (i.e. overturning the gigantic machine that is the pet trade, of which Petco and Petsmart are just two cogs), let's focus on what we can change; the things right in front of us: the petstores in our communities, the tortoise keepers in our communities, educating both groups about proper husbandry and care.

Even if by some insane act of God, you managed to get two big chain pet supply companies to stop purchasing WC stock and only purchase CBB, collectors in other countries will STILL collect those animals. They will simply go to other dealers, other smaller chain pet stores, as well as the food and skin trade. You going to take on those monsters, too?


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## cemmons12

Tom said:


> Chris, they do give out care sheets, but different people do it different ways. Some "expert" told them that tortoises should be housed on calcisand, given those death trap water bowls and housed all together regardless of species or origin. I think Neal's suggestion of educating these people is the way to go, and all this effort and energy should be spent trying to achieve that.
> 
> And Russians can be tricky to breed. Even for the people who have success, each female only produces a few babies a year. There is nowhere near enough captive breeding here in the states to meet the demand. I wish there was and I'm laying the foundation to start making my contribution right now. When I'm ready to start I'm going to need to be able to get the foundation stock. If the animal rightists of the world are successful, I will have to run around buying up all the captive bred babies I can find and then wait a decade for them to reach maturity and start producing.


Sound very good Tom! I hope it all works out very good!  We dont have one of the pet stores that the petition is aimed at, we have a Speck's. And they have no idea how to care for them and they dont give out care sheets. Last time they had a Sulcata there I spoke with the lady manager about the proper care and told her of this forum in hopes that she would maybe, just maybe, get on here and read just a little. Then the Uncle Bills pet store had 2 Russians that had no heat or light at all (yet they were in a very nice Vision cage) and they were only feeding them some kind of stuff in a can. Of course I pitched a b*tch about the poor care and he had an excuse for the heat and lights being out. They all just went out that morning. Very aggravating to me. If I had the money at the time I would have got them out of there. And just to be clear to everyone, I am not trying to argue with Tom, just wanted to make that clear considering I really like Tom and value his words very much and also go by his care standards.


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## StudentoftheReptile

cemmons12 said:


> If I had the money at the time I would have got them out of there.



To be honest, this is one of the worst things to do. Sure, you might have rescued THOSE tortoises from a bad situation, in essence you have done exactly what the pet store wants people to do: buy the tortoise from the pet store. They will simply order more tortoises to replace the ones just bought.

Here's a helpful thread I posted not long ago about this subject: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-How-to-Deal-with-Bad-Pet-Shops-Zoos-etc#axzz26I2roqJh


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## taytay3391

I bought my Russian from petco and they actually told me everything right... Coco substrate, heat lamp, uv bulb, water, calcium, food and soaks. The guy there knew what he was talking about and I wouldn't want to stop them from selling torts. Wild caught or not. It's probably one of the cheapest and easiest way as a college student to get a Russian. She was on sale because it was reptile appreciation so I got her for $50. They told me I could buy a big aquarium but a rubber tote would be better. Maybe it's cause I'm from little ol' Iowa but petco helped me tons!


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## StudentoftheReptile

taytay3391 said:


> I bought my Russian from petco and they actually told me everything right... Coco substrate, heat lamp, uv bulb, water, calcium, food and soaks. The guy there knew what he was talking about and I wouldn't want to stop them from selling torts. Wild caught or not. It's probably one of the cheapest and easiest way as a college student to get a Russian. She was on sale because it was reptile appreciation so I got her for $50. They told me I could buy a big aquarium but a rubber tote would be better. Maybe it's cause I'm from little ol' Iowa but petco helped me tons!



You were lucky.  That employee was a diamond in the rough. Most employees of either company wouldn't know that much about the animal and/or actually tell you to set-up it up with products acquired elsewhere for cheaper instead of buying everything there at their store.


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## taytay3391

StudentoftheReptile said:


> You were lucky.  That employee was a diamond in the rough. Most employees of either company wouldn't know that much about the animal and/or actually tell you to set-up it up with products acquired elsewhere for cheaper instead of buying everything there at their store.



So I've heard. That's why I was so surprised when people were always so down on petco. Yes, they don't keep them there properly but he and another guy when I went in always helped me correctly.


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## Kerryann

StudentoftheReptile said:


> taytay3391 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I bought my Russian from petco and they actually told me everything right... Coco substrate, heat lamp, uv bulb, water, calcium, food and soaks. The guy there knew what he was talking about and I wouldn't want to stop them from selling torts. Wild caught or not. It's probably one of the cheapest and easiest way as a college student to get a Russian. She was on sale because it was reptile appreciation so I got her for $50. They told me I could buy a big aquarium but a rubber tote would be better. Maybe it's cause I'm from little ol' Iowa but petco helped me tons!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You were lucky.  That employee was a diamond in the rough. Most employees of either company wouldn't know that much about the animal and/or actually tell you to set-up it up with products acquired elsewhere for cheaper instead of buying everything there at their store.
Click to expand...

What's odd to me is that both Petsmarts near my house are pretty knowledgeable about the different tortoises they carry. They actually have always been able to answer my questions and have been right according to what I read on here for the basics. 
My Russian was purchased from a small privately owned pet shop and her previous owner was told she could keep her in a hamster cage (9 in wide by like a 1 1/2 ft wide), on a mix of alfalfa pellets and crushed walnut, never was told to have a uvb lamp, used a standard 60 watt bulb as a heat lamp, and fed her only green and red leaf lettuces with no supplements. 
I think to target petsmart and petcos only is short sighted and probably more harmful than good in the long run.


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## Jacqui

StudentoftheReptile said:


> You were lucky.  That employee was a diamond in the rough. Most employees of either company wouldn't know that much about the animal and/or actually tell you to set-up it up with products acquired elsewhere for cheaper instead of buying everything there at their store.



See some times I really wonder about this kind of statement. I always had good luck at my area stores (within 100 miles of my home). When I was out on the road, we stopped often at stores in various states and the thing I found strange is they too had good people and nice clean setups with healthy animals. I have not yet stumbled across these "bad" stores with untrained folks at these two large chains. I will say I have found some nasty mom and pop type stores where I wanted a shower before getting back into our truck.


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## StudentoftheReptile

Kerryann said:


> I think to target petsmart and petcos only is short sighted and probably more harmful than good in the long run.



I agree to an extent. As with taytay's experience, not every single petco and petsmart is horrible. There are exceptions. And likewise, not every local mom-n-pop store is wonderful, either.

But the thing is, the exceptions only arise when you have the occasional employee who is a genuine reptile enthusiast, and/or management/staff that genuinely cares about the animals more than just adhering to policy and keeping their jobs and staying out of trouble. Sadly, these cases are the minority, not the norm. These big-chain stores have high turnover rates. Managers get promoted and move on, sometimes to another dept or another store altogether. That diamond-in-the-rough employee may graduate and move away...or get fired. What are the odds of another knowledgeable herp hobbyist taking their place?

Many cities and towns don't have a local mom/pop shop pet store, and only have a Petsmart or a Petco. That is why those two companies get targeted more often than others. They are at the forefront of the pet hobby. They're where most new pet owners go to find new pets...of any kind. It behooves them to be held accountable for their husbandry practices, because really, they are responsible for many hobbyists' first pet reptile.



Jacqui said:


> See some times I really wonder about this kind of statement. I always had good luck at my area stores (within 100 miles of my home). When I was out on the road, we stopped often at stores in various states and the thing I found strange is they too had good people and nice clean setups with healthy animals. I have not yet stumbled across these "bad" stores with untrained folks at these two large chains. I will say I have found some nasty mom and pop type stores where I wanted a shower before getting back into our truck.



I can only comment on stores that I have personally witnessed. Maybe pet stores in the South generally suck worse than elsewhere in the U.S.

And for the record, I've been to stores in Alabama, TN, FL, GA, and this includes Petsmart, PETCO, Pet Supplies Plus, Petland, and mom/pop shops.


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## ra94131

I actually think most, maybe 90%, of ALL pet stores I've visited have had issues that really put me off. Many just bite off more than they can chew with the variety the attempt to offer. (This applies to the chains and the single location stores.)

I will say both the best and the worst pet stores I've ever visited have been "mom and pop" locations. I think the chains tend to hover around the middle and are mostly consistent, though there are definitely stand outs. (Good and bad.)


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## StudentoftheReptile

And of course, every store has their strengths and weaknesses, too. Some stores take good care of small animals and birds, but fail with fish and reptiles. sometimes its the other way around. Personally, that is why I prefer specialty mom-and-pop shops over the generalized pet supply store that tries to carry a little bit of everything, but specializes in nothing. At least Petsmart to some degree draws a line and tries to offer only "beginner" herps. You won't see green iguanas, savannah monitors, red-tailed boas, or retic pythons at a Petsmart.


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## taytay3391

I've got to say I don't like peatland. There was one near me for a while until it got shut down cause their poor little puppies came from puppy mills. I'm not sure what it's like at other petcos but the ones near me have reptile specialists. Same as they have dog trainers and pretty sure they have like a rodent person. But these people have to be knowledgable about their area. So maybe that's why the petcos around me are good?


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## Jacqui

StudentoftheReptile said:


> I can only comment on stores that I have personally witnessed. Maybe pet stores in the South generally suck worse than elsewhere in the U.S.
> 
> And for the record, I've been to stores in Alabama, TN, FL, GA, and this includes Petsmart, PETCO, Pet Supplies Plus, Petland, and mom/pop shops.



Not wanting to say any negative about the south, but perhaps your right. I can't recall if any of the ones I went to were in 'Bama or TN. My husband could no doubt tell you not only all the states, but even towns I dragged him to pet stores in.  Off the top of my head without taking time to really think back, it would be: NE, IA, SD, WI, FL, IL, PA, UT, MO, KS, OK, CA, NV, NM, AZ, and TX and either NC or SC, who knows maybe both.





ra94131 said:


> I will say both the best and the worst pet stores I've ever visited have been "mom and pop" locations. I think the chains tend to hover around the middle and are mostly consistent, though there are definitely stand outs. (Good and bad.)



I have to agree with this.



I also very strongly agree with most of the points Tom made awhile back on this thread. I know I buy WC tortoises because for one thing, I will not penalizie the innocent one that has already been captured to *maybe* keep another one from the same fate. I will instead try to allow the one that has been caught, to live the rest of it's life as near to what in my limited knowledge and limited means I can, a natural, healthy, and "happy" way. I will hopefully have the end result in producing young from these animals, so their genes are not just tossed into the trash can as they would if I ignored that animal's individual plight. Those to whom I can not personally help, then I will be on places like this helping the people who do take up this animal's challenge to do so as correctly as I can share with them.

I, as with many in here, would and should find it hypocritical to sign this petition, as I myself personally own WC animals.


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## GeoTerraTestudo

I think the petition we _should_ be signing is the one to Central Asian governments to get them to outlaw the collection of wild animals for the pet trade, including Russian tortoises.


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## terryo

Tom said:


> Have you all gone mad? Isn't it enought that the government wants to ban everything and take our pets away and now you want to HELP them do it???
> 
> By all means take steps to ensure that all imported and captive bred animals are well cared for and housed properly, but this is a lot of misguided emotion, albeit with good intentions.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with importing farmed or wild caught tortoises. NONE of us would have ANY tortoises if wild caughts were not allowed. We can all agree that they should be collected and shipped better. We can all agree that there should be a limit on how many can be taken from the wild annually, but good lord, trying to make people NOT be able to sell them anymore? How many fewer people would be in to tortoises if you couldn't go buy one from a pet store. Thats where I got my first turtle. It was a western box turtle way back in 1979 and I'm pretty sure it was wild caught. How different would the tortoise world be if me, and thousands of others like me, had never gotten in to tortoises because they weren't readily available.
> 
> As Mike pointed out, that petition is full of all sorts of speculation and misinformation. If someone wants to start a petition asking the chain pet stores to house, feed and care for their tortoises better, I will gladly sign up and even help out. This petition on the other hand goes way too far. Pryncesssc, does your friend have a large colony of captive bred Russians the are producing lots of babies to help fill the void of the ones that he/she proposes not be imported or sold?



Finally....thank you Tom. I agree 100%.


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## CourtneyAndCarl

There are very few petstores where people are telling you wrong info on PURPOSE to get you to spend more money. And even then that's more individuals than the entire workforce of that particular store. But Petco and Petsmart hire people based on their people skills and not their animal knowledge, that they can give them a thin sampling of later on. They tell us in training very VERY little, and the rest comes from knowledge or being told by another employee. If a Petco/smart is run by a bunch of people that know nothing about animals, than odds are their animals are going to be poorly cared for and wrong info is going to be thrown out at random, etc.

At any rate, the only terrible experience I've ever had in a petshop was a mom and pop store.... they had a cockatiel that had a broken wing for 3 months on sale until it finally died... kept probably 30-40 baby aquatic turtles of differing species and sizes in a 20 gallon tank... had a juvenile alligator in a 30 gallon tank... I also remember them having a half grown sulcata in a five foot baby pool "by the window" to get UVB (which of course didn't strike me as stupid until after I got my tortoise several years later). The owner was the biggest idiot on the planet and knew nothing about animals. He hired two brothers that knew only about fish, who finally quit, and he went out of business. The brothers now run an amazing fish shop here in Omaha, and a really good one at that, and the idiotic pet store owner is nowhere to be found after his SECOND attempt at a mom and pop petstore failed.


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## fbsmith3

I signed but you all make very good points. Maybe Petco will better care for the animals they have in stock.


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## terryo

I am mostly against anything wild caught, I won't even buy a WC box turtle, but the alternative is sometimes devastating. Here 300 wild RF and YF are being roasted alive by Kayapo' Indians.


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## Tom

I think every one of those rfs would have been happier with you or Mark or JD or Terry K, or Jacqui, or Yvonne, or Allegra, or Jeff, etc.....

I can understand everyone's opposition to too much collection from the wild, but I can't understand anyone's opposition to ANY collection from the wild. None of us would be here without it. None of us would know anything about rfs, sulcatas, or any other species not native to our area.


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## ALDABRAMAN

*Done, actually i have several others that i contacted and they signed as well!*



terryo said:


> I am mostly against anything wild caught, I won't even buy a WC box turtle, but the alternative is sometimes devastating. Here 300 wild RF and YF are being roasted alive by Kayapo' Indians.


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## cemmons12

terryo said:


> I am mostly against anything wild caught, I won't even buy a WC box turtle, but the alternative is sometimes devastating. Here 300 wild RF and YF are being roasted alive by Kayapo' Indians.


Oh god, that sight made me sick to my stomach.... our poor shelled friends.


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## chase thorn

On the fence with this one... I agree with Tom on this one. I have fallen into getting a WC from a petstore... I hate that petstore but it was not a Petco or Petsmart...


I have very very very nice petcos and petsmarts. I have never and will never see a bad petco here in the springs. My petco has an amazing staff and amazing animals. They can't control what comes in but they do know how to care for the sick and feed the malnourished. This petco was also on of only a couple petcos to start the saltwater and frag tank setup. for those who do not know, a frag tank is simply a tank with live corals. That being said, Patty, the employee among others have been some of the best care takers of these fish, corals, herps, birds, and even rodent pets! The only sick animal I saw was a green anole, which was a fussy eater and they tried to force feed but he simply did not make it. Awesome people and care for even the simplest of animals. They do not advise on the Petco care sheets as these even have bad info and they will tell you what to get without trying to scam for a better profit! The tortoises are even feed a fresh (not frozen) diet of great well varied foods. Not crickets and pellets like some other stores strictly feed their russians...

Sorry kinda ranty...


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## StudentoftheReptile

terryo said:


> I am mostly against anything wild caught, I won't even buy a WC box turtle, but the alternative is sometimes devastating. Here 300 wild RF and YF are being roasted alive by Kayapo' Indians.



Now, to me, this has nothing to do with the topic. Yes it is sad that tortoises are treated this way...but here's a couple things to think about:

1.) Fishing - Fish have nerves and feel pain like most other vertebrates. Look at how we treat them: we hook them in the mouth with no aneasthetic, skin them and fillet them practically alive. Its not much different than what folks do at these rattlesnake roundups that people are outraged about right now. Now, Im not trying to attacking the fishing industry; I fish on occasion, and I eat fish regularly. Just offering a different perspective.

2.) These tortoises are part of these peoples' natural diet and part of the native ecosystem. True, there should be some regulation but fundamentally, how is this any different than one of us going out to hunt for feral pigs, deer, game fowl, etc.? It's easy to point and judge and feel sad for the tortoises, but again, this has nothing to do with the pet trade. Try hopping on a plane, flying down there to that country and set those Indians straight. Give them alternatives so they don't have to eat RF tortoises. Again, I'm not necessarily trying to make anyone feel guilty, but look at the big picture here.


Yeah, I would rather a WC tortoise end up here in the states in a glass box to live a so-so life as someone's pet than be roasted alive by a tribe in South America, but at the same time, I can't fault a fellow human being in a impoverished country for feeding themselves, ya know?


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## ra94131

StudentoftheReptile said:


> Yeah, I would rather a WC tortoise end up here in the states in a glass box to live a so-so life as someone's pet than be roasted alive by a tribe in South America, but at the same time, I can't fault a fellow human being in a impoverished country for feeding themselves, ya know?



I actually disagree. I think it is far more "natural" and acceptable for the tortoises to be eaten by an indigenous group than than to be whisked around the world and bred/sold for our amusement.

That said, I love my little reptile captives, but I feel a real debt to them that requires me to provide the most ideal conditions possible in their "unnatural" habitats.
(More so than I would feel towards a truly domesticated animal like a dog/house cat/etc. that owes its existence to humanity.)

Just my thoughts. Always an interesting discussion.


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## StudentoftheReptile

ra94131 said:


> I actually disagree. I think it is far more "natural" and acceptable for the tortoises to be eaten by an indigenous group than than to be whisked around the world and bred/sold for our amusement.



I understand. Its a tough line as an animal lover and as a human being. Now most certainly, I would rather them be eaten by indigenous peoples than being shipped off to Asian food markets!


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## ra94131

StudentoftheReptile said:


> I would rather them be eaten by indigenous peoples than being shipped off to Asian food markets!



We can both agree on that.

However, even that doesn't bother me too much when sustainable harvest guidelines are strictly observed so as to not threaten a species natural existence. It may be hard to stomach sometimes as a person that keeps these animals as pets, but I always try to also appreciate the animal's inherent place in the food chain.

(Note: I know the big problem is that many (most?) of those foreign markets DO NOT observe any responsibility for sustainability, which is the reason I included the caveat above.)


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## Neal

StudentoftheReptile said:


> 1.) Fishing - Fish have nerves and feel pain like most other vertebrates. Look at how we treat them: we hook them in the mouth with no aneasthetic, skin them and fillet them practically alive. Its not much different than what folks do at these rattlesnake roundups that people are outraged about right now. Now, Im not trying to attacking the fishing industry; I fish on occasion, and I eat fish regularly. Just offering a different perspective.



Not to be off topic, but fish actually don't have nerves in their mouths. While they may still feel pain when we hook them, it is probably not enough to do any sort of major damage by itself. They fight because they are being pulled in a direction they don't want to go. If you've ever caught and released a fish, they quickly go back to behaving normally.


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## StudentoftheReptile

Thanks for the clarification, Neal.


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