# We should feed more iceberg



## PeanutbuttER (Dec 26, 2010)

"should" is probably too strong a word, but why aren't we feeding more of these "low-nutrient" foods? A lot of these "low nutrient" foods keep getting a bad rap in my opinion. Cucumbers being one of them and dare I say iceberg lettuce being another (the lettuce who shall not be named ). They have their use and if nothing else they provide roughage and hydration.

Here's my thought, we talk about how for many torts the weed diet is ideal. We also talk about how our torts are growing too fast because we're often supplying food that is too good. So, why aren't we feeding some "low nutrient" foods to balance things out? Most weeds have a whole lot less nutrient wise than say mustard greens, endive, escarole, etc correct? So I then see no problem then with feeding say cucumber slices (caveat: with all of this I want to stress "as part of a varied diet") skinned or not. Same with iceberg lettuce. Its lack of nutrients is ideal to avoid hyperloading a developing tort system with so many nutrients that it grows faster than pubescent teenager. 

This is of course with a day to day varied diet in mind and not the "fig tree" mentality (which I actually think is a great approach towards feeding). I'm not saying we should feed iceberg for a week or two straight, but why not alternate between high- and low- nutrient grocery store greens? Gives the tort a chance to use what it already has on low nutrient days. Plus we should see slower steadier growth rates. 

From the direction our discussions on pyramiding are going it seems that this would help with pyramiding in possibly 2 ways:
1) increase tortoise hydration (admittedly, this effect may be small, even negligable even)
2) slower growth rates. Slow and smooth wins the race, isn't that what we're starting to move towards (or back to since from what I remember this isn't a new idea by any means). 

Does anyone agree with me to some degree or is it just too late and I'm rambling about some random tangential thoughts that are keeping me awake?


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## dmmj (Dec 26, 2010)

I can think of one good reason they tend to only start eating lettuce, and nothing else.


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## cdmay (Dec 26, 2010)

You may have a good point here. I too have considered such ideas and I have occasionally _(shhhhhh!) _ offered iceberg lettuce to my tortoises.
The idea that captive tortoises grow too fast has been addressed both in print and by many of us here on this and other forums. 
But although occasional iceberg (or similar 'empty' foods) might help cut down on accelerated growth it is probably wiser to simply offer smaller amounts of higher quality greens most of the time. This would be better than just letting them scarf down a bunch of low end stuff. 
Depends on the other food items you are offering too. The fact is that many of us are all too frequently feeding unnatural, high fat foods to our animals. How often do we read of people insisiting that captive omnivorous or opportunistic tortoises should get cat food, cooked chicken breast, Mazuri chow and so on once a week or several times a month? Do they really believe that this is the same as what these tortoises find in the wild? The claim that they only feed 'low fat' cat food or 'lean' chicken breast also has to be kept in context...for a tortoise these are still very high fat food items. 
I agree with your comments about variety too. Some of the species in the genus Testudo consume a bewildering array of wild plants (forbs, grasses, 'weeds' and so forth) from season to season that would stagger the average keeper.
Striving to offer as much variety as possible seems, in my mind, to be a good idea.


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## Madkins007 (Dec 26, 2010)

When you feed an elephant, they get a relatively small amount of high-nutrient foods, and a lot of high-fiber 'filler'. This is also a decent model for human diets, and I think it makes a ton of sense for tortoises as well. What we use for the 'filler' may vary a bit by species- hays and grasses for the grass-eaters, and something like 'plain lettuce', etc. for those who won't eat grass.

Afraid they will skip the good stuff for the cheap stuff? Just feed the good stuff first, then top off the plate with the filler and leave it there all day. (Although, I honestly have not seen any of my tortoises skip the good stuff for the cheap stuff.)

I am really working for a slower, smoother growth with this group. They get Mazuri about once a week or so, meat only every 2-3 weeks, and 'fruit' (usually bell peppers, squash, etc. but also melon, apple, etc. sometimes) once a week. I offer mushrooms fairly often (hardly any nutrients), and if I had better access to them, I would offer bugs more often. 

Otherwise most meals are a lettuce or greens mix with a dash of ground up hay for fiber, a tiny pinch of calcium, and a bit of vit. D. 






This is a recent shot of one of my guys eating from a plate of 'fruits' form the deli bar at the store. Because it goes bad so quickly, I overfeed it when I get it, but the next meal will just be lettuces and supplements. The shell is not perfect, but I also do not mist them directly very often and the humidity in the habitat is not usually much higher than 80%- I think this is a pretty decent result that I would estimate is 75-80% due to a diet similar to what PeanutbuttER is suggesting.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 26, 2010)

Because I have so many animals to feed, its very easy for me to buy a nice, wide variety of fruits, veggies and greens. I just walk down the aisle and pick up a couple three bunches of this, several pounds of that, and it almost always includes a couple heads of ice burg and romaine lettuces. When I feed the tortoises, they each get a little bit of everything that I bought. No one picks out or focuses in on anything, but everyone eats it all. Bear in mind that I don't feed my grass-eating tortoises. They have to graze on what grows in their pens even during the winter. I'll toss them a branch of an edible tree or vine occasionally.

But I NEVER, NEVER mention the word "lettuce" to people who come to adopt tortoises from me. Once they hear that word, they just zone in on the word and eventually, because its so easy to feed, that ends up being the majority item in their tortoise's diet. "Well, you said I could feed lettuce!" When what I really said was feed them a varied diet of dark, leafy greens and lettuces. So I now don't mention lettuce.


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## Jermosh (Dec 26, 2010)

emysemys said:


> Because I have so many animals to feed, its very easy for me to buy a nice, wide variety of fruits, veggies and greens. I just walk down the aisle and pick up a couple three bunches of this, several pounds of that, and it almost always includes a couple heads of ice burg and romaine lettuces. When I feed the tortoises, they each get a little bit of everything that I bought. No one picks out or focuses in on anything, but everyone eats it all. Bear in mind that I don't feed my grass-eating tortoises. They have to graze on what grows in their pens even during the winter. I'll toss them a branch of an edible tree or vine occasionally.
> 
> But I NEVER, NEVER mention the word "lettuce" to people who come to adopt tortoises from me. Once they hear that word, they just zone in on the word and eventually, because its so easy to feed, that ends up being the majority item in their tortoise's diet. "Well, you said I could feed lettuce!" When what I really said was feed them a varied diet of dark, leafy greens and lettuces. So I now don't mention lettuce.



You hit it on the head. We get donated and outdated produce from local stores at the Sanctuary, we just need to sort through and take out all the unwanted stuff and give the rest to the torts. There is a good amount of iceberg in there, although not a lot. They never have an issue with it, and the only foods I see them gun for are anything red like fruit or yams.


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## Tom (Dec 26, 2010)

We had this same discussion a few months ago. I agree that the food items mentioned are a good part of a varied diet. I also see Yvonne's POV.

I do NOT, however, agree with the "slow growth" concept. What my recent research has shown me is that the speed of growth does not matter as long as conditions are correct. I'm only speaking about sulcatas, SA leopards and soon CDT's. Neal is working on getting an answer for babcocks. I cannot speak for redfoots. The Austrian study backs this up too.

When I speak of "fast" growth, I'm speaking of the "optimal" conditions that a wild tort might experience in the wild. By approximating optimal conditions in my captive environment, I have gotten very smooth, healthy AND fast growth.

Can tortoises survive periods of less than optimal conditions? YES. They are masters at it. Does that mean we should intentionally try to simulate less than optimal conditions for them in our captive environments and force them to "survive" them? Not in my opinion. The big point of possible contention with my reasoning here is: "What is optimal for each species and each stage of life within that species?" In other words, "optimal" is different for adults and hatchlings within a species, and certainly different between two different species. Redfoot and sulcata, for example.

I followed this "slow growth" regime with my current adult sulcatas. I skipped days, left them to graze, and fed a fair amount of iceberg, romaine and cucumber for just the reasons you suggested. The result was and is pyramided, stunted, mini sulcatas. My 12 year old boys are 43 and 48 pounds. My 10 year old female is only 33 pounds. "Slow" growth did not help them in any way or slow down the pyramiding at all. They pyramided because they were too dry and dehydrated all the time. By contrast, my current babies are growing very fast, 220-250 grams and 4" at 7 months, and are totally smooth. I suspect they will be bigger than my adults by the time they are 5 years old.

Anyhow, this is the direction that all of my research has led me in, and what I have learned. You guys go ahead and try the "slow growth" routine and in a few years let me know how it worked out for you.


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## kbaker (Dec 26, 2010)

Tom said:


> I suspect they will be bigger than my adults by the time they are 5 years old.



I bet they will produce more clutches that are larger soon after that five year mark, too.


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## matt41gb (Dec 26, 2010)

I think most of us overfeed our tortoises in my own opinion.


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## PeanutbuttER (Dec 26, 2010)

I totally agree that this should not be something we should be telling new owners. Iceberg is too cheap and readily available and all too easily becomes a staple.

I had no idea that's the way they feed elephants. Thank you for the picture of your torts and an example of this whole idea.

Tom, didn't you also keep them too dry for all those years? I am not hailing this as an end all to pyramiding, rather as something that can help to a degree. Especially in light of the more or less recent discussion about how hatchlings may be spending their time thickening shells, establishing growth patterns, etc moreso than they spend their time trying to grow. Keep them humid, just don't make them grow rocket fast. With what I have in mind, they'll still grow plenty fast, just not as fast as others.

Outta time, gotta go. Will write more later. But, didn't Fife, or maybe it was EJ, experience shell abnormalities with his redfoots when he first switched them over to the "all-mazuri all-the-time" diet. I'll find that reference later, who it was, and what they found. From what I remember this was only a problem in the redfoots, so maybe my perspective as a redfoot keeper will be skewed compared to keepers of other species.


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## Madkins007 (Dec 26, 2010)

Tom- I am not disagreeing with you on any point, other than MAYBE the idea of using humidity/misting as the primary tool to deal with pyramiding. I am also only concerned with Red-foots here (a point that I may not have made clearly enough in my post.) 

The term 'slow growth' may also have been poorly selected on my part. One thing I see with a lot of Red-foots, including some of my earlier attempts, are animals fed an overly rich diet with accelerated growth and various MBDs. Perhaps I should have used a term more like 'less-rich diet' instead of 'slow growth'. They are being limited only in the fruits and meats- they get a big heap-o-greens (with some hay and calcium supplement, and a dash of vitamin d) every day. 

I am also focusing this idea on hatchlings- when they hit about a year old, the bones should be fully developed and they should be ready for the more rapid growth associated with juveniles.


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## Balboa (Dec 26, 2010)

I like your thinking on this Peanut, for many of the reasons you stated and brought up or expanded upon by others.

I'm not sure I'm onboard with the slow growth required idea, I see the theoretical merit, but I have reservations, one of which being Tom's examples.

My personal mind model of how critters and diets work is more along the lines of bodies throw away most of the excess when capable. (ie healthy). This implies its better to overdue the protein or calcium than under do it, and make sure they're hydrated so they can flush the excess. A few extra calories will be burnt by exercise on a healthy, happy tort, whereas a starving one may curtail activity to ensure some fat build up.

Personally, I believe many common complications with torts stem from feeding them really healthy greens but keeping them too dry.

I've bounced around these ideas for a while with Mark now. For the time being, I'm continuing to "overfeed". Mark is making some good headway on ensuring good nutrition, in a low carb way. Time will tell.


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## PeanutbuttER (Dec 26, 2010)

Here's that reference about the "all-mazuri all-the-time" diet. It was EJ. It's a really good read by the way for all those interested. Definitely worth looking over at least once.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Mazuri-part-1 and http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Mazuri-part-2

In my mind, mazuri is a step up from greens on the nutrient-packed foods scale. So by feeding them a highly nutrient-dense diet he did see in time growth abnormalities (his reference was uneven growth between scutes causing asymmetrical growth). Granted, he didn't see pyramiding so my thought about its connection to pyramiding may be just that, a thought, but I stand by this statement: It can only help. To repeat myself once again though, I'm not saying this alone will cure/stop/prevent pyramiding, but I'm saying it at least can only help you and your tort to better utilize other methods to reduce pyramiding. 

Unless I'm mistaken the conclusion about growth rings and humidity is that the scutes need to "slide" as the new growth comes in to prevent pyramiding. Here's where slow growth helps. There is a time-frame for growth and during that window of time the scutes need to hydrate and "slide" to make way for new growth. Theoretically speaking, if you grow fast, then that window of time is smaller. Grow slow, and that window is bigger. Keep them constantly moistened anyway and you're fine in either case. However this is difficult in shell-rot prone species such as redfoots since you're constantly walking that knife's edge between shell-rot and pyramiding. Personally, I'd like that window a little bigger so that they can "dry out" occasionally and avoid shell rot (I hate shell rot). To put this another way : Diet by itself won't do a lick of good towards pyramiding. It just gives you more time to hydrate and create smooth growth. More I think about this the more I am seeing a possible connection between diet and pyramiding. 

"Personally, I believe many common complications with torts stem from feeding them really healthy greens but keeping them too dry."
-Balboa

Agreed. I'd like to suggest/posit though that perhaps we should replace the "but" with an "and". 

The body is able to throw away some of the extra nutrients, but not all. There are certain things which enter your body and accumulate inside of it but there are others like calcium which are readily excreted. However, there are aspects of diets that bind minerals to be excreted; causing them to accumulate. Oxalates for instance bind calcium and can lead to stone formation. You're right on though with your healthy tort/ starving tort comparison.

I'm thinking more and more that overfeeding is a common practice and I'm not lovin it. It just doesn't sit well with me. Since I know that people are less likely to feed their tort every other day (poor tortie is soooo hungry...I just have to feed him) I think that adding previously thought "meritless" low-nutrient foods to the definition of a varied diet would help keep things in check and more accurately simulate wild diets.


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## Balboa (Dec 26, 2010)

Great Read Peanut!
I've gone through and looked up some of Ed's old posts before, but missed those. I see I need to look into it some more.

I see alot of stuff there that reflects much of my thinking of late. Ed inspired much of that thinking, and I see I'm reinventing his wheel in some parts, no surprise there.

We lost a good contributor in Ed. I've thought for a long time I'd like to be able to sit down and talk to that guy.


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## Tom (Dec 26, 2010)

Oh I wish Ed would come back and play nice. He just never seemed to want to share all that he has learned the hard way. I could never figure him out. He wrote a book, so he obviously wants to share what he knows, but he was always very testy here on the forum. Sad, but we'll have to learn what he knows the hard way. Same way he did. Like Balboa, I'd love to hang out with him and pick his brain, but I'm not so sure I'd be invited.

Mark, I think everyone talking about different species does cause some differences of opinion in general threads like this. We all relate statements back to the species that are nearest and dearest to us. From what I know of redfoots (not a lot), you guys are probably right on with the diet and care info. I'm finding different things to be the case with desert species sometimes.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 26, 2010)

Not to make this a thread about -EJ, but, he's really a very personable guy. Its just something about posting on the forums that changes him. If you talk to him in person or on the phone or even in email, he's very interesting and willing to share. I'm trying to work out a deal to bring him to Fresno. Maybe we can encourage him to visit SoCal too.


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## cdmay (Dec 27, 2010)

_


emysemys said:



Not to make this a thread about -EJ, but, he's really a very personable guy. Its just something about posting on the forums that changes him. If you talk to him in person or on the phone or even in email, he's very interesting and willing to share. I'm trying to work out a deal to bring him to Fresno. Maybe we can encourage him to visit SoCal too.

Click to expand...

_
Absolutely correct!


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## PeanutbuttER (Dec 27, 2010)

emysemys said:


> Not to make this a thread about -EJ, but, he's really a very personable guy. Its just something about posting on the forums that changes him. If you talk to him in person or on the phone or even in email, he's very interesting and willing to share. I'm trying to work out a deal to bring him to Fresno. Maybe we can encourage him to visit SoCal too.



That's very surprising. I had the same opinion about him that Tom did. Seems like, at least all of the newer ones anyway, he was more about telling you you had to research him and dig up all his old threads than he was about helping you out. Which I should add is fine because if he wasn't I'd have never read/found those couple threads about mazuri. I assumed that was just his personality, not overly helpful unless you put forth a lot of legwork first.

Didn't even occur to me that he's the guy that wrote the russian tortoises book (did another one too according to Amazon). I'm surprised, in my eyes it kinda makes him "famous" since I've seen that book at probably every pet store I've been to. 

He's from southern california, isn't that not too far away from fresno (read it on his amazon bio). Hope you can get him to go!


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## Edna (Dec 27, 2010)

One assumption we always make when talking about plant foods is that each plant contains x amount of certain nutrients and we can control what nutrients our torts get by understanding to one degree or another what those plants contain. The reality is that the TDN of a given plant varies greatly depending on a number of different factors, including the obvious ones like mineralization of the soil and less obvious like the life stage of the plant itself. Research goes where the money is, so we know a lot about the TDNs of pasture grasses and forage plants in their various stages of growth.
My daughter's Haflinger pony is only 13 hh. Given high quality hay, he tends to weigh 1300 lbs. Obscene! When he lived with us and I was buying his hay, I would ask the hay man to wait 2 weeks past peak to put up the hay. Thay way the pony could eat an amount that kept his digestive tract healthy and kept him happy, and also kept him at a weight that didn't put such a strain on his little legs and feet. So feeding food stuffs of lower nutritional value worked in that situation. (In case anyone is wondering, the pony now lives in NW Montana, and has a job working for room and board on an Amish farm. He pulls a cart and stays beautifully trim. My daughter still owns him, so when she visits there she picks him up and rides and plays with him and it seems like a best-case situation for everyone.)
Though they are both grazers and browsers, feeding torts is nothing like feeding horses because their digestive processes are so different. My thought on feeding my little torts is that they are tiny, their tummies are tiny, and everything that goes in should count from a nutritional standpoint. I think I would only INTENTIONALLY feed a lower level of TDNs would be if they were adults and well past the growth they are experiencing right now.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 27, 2010)

PeanutbuttER said:


> He's from southern california, isn't that not too far away from fresno (read it on his amazon bio). Hope you can get him to go!



He moved to Georgia a couple years ago.


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## stells (Dec 27, 2010)

Ed should have never left... should have never been forced out... he posted his posts... it was up to other members to search for them if they wanted too... thats why forums have search engines... he is a person i class as a good friend... and i can truely understand his reasons for not being here... 

He is still a regular on Shelled warriors... that i am greatful for...


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## PeanutbuttER (Dec 27, 2010)

emysemys said:


> PeanutbuttER said:
> 
> 
> > He's from southern california, isn't that not too far away from fresno (read it on his amazon bio). Hope you can get him to go!
> ...



aha, that makes more sense. Was thinking that socal well isn't all that far from socal...


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## Tom (Dec 27, 2010)

stells said:


> Ed should have never left... should have never been forced out... he posted his posts... it was up to other members to search for them if they wanted too... thats why forums have search engines... he is a person i class as a good friend... and i can truely understand his reasons for not being here...
> 
> He is still a regular on Shelled warriors... that i am greatful for...



You make a lot of statements... without any explanation... why don't you explain to us the reasons, that you understand so well, for him not being here...

... forum search engines are not always easy to use... sometimes I find a thing on my first try... other times I can't find it at all... what's wrong with answering a simple question that you know the answer to?...


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## stells (Dec 27, 2010)

As said he is a good friend who has told me his reasons... i am not one to go and post them all over a forum... now how loyal of a friend would that make me... 

Its called research... did you get the answers to exams handed to you... i think the answer is no... 

Whats this Tom... another excuse to try to get at Kelly... Sorry... not working


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## PeanutbuttER (Dec 27, 2010)

stells said:


> As said he is a good friend who has told me his reasons... i am not one to go and post them all over a forum... now how loyal of a friend would that make me...
> 
> Its called research... did you get the answers to exams handed to you... i think the answer is no...
> 
> Whats this Tom... another excuse to tryu to get at Kelly... Sorry... not working



It's a forum, not a class. There is no exam. Just discussion. I don't come to a forum to be taught, but to share. It is kinda strange when people come here with a teaching attitude because this is just not the place for it. So, when someone says "search through my 700+ posts to find this specific one that solves all your problems" it strikes me as arrogant. Does that not seem weird to you in the slightest? It would be different if he said "I made a thread about this a year ago, but the main point is X"


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## stells (Dec 27, 2010)

You want to know that badly... you would find it... 

The exam thing was just an example... as you probably know... 

Thats one problem... everyone here takes everything literally..


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## PeanutbuttER (Dec 27, 2010)

stells said:


> You want to know that badly... you would find it...
> 
> The exam thing was just an example... as you probably know...
> 
> Thats one problem... everyone here takes everything literally..



Fine. All I'm saying, nobody comes here for the lecture on the merits of the search button.


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## dmmj (Dec 27, 2010)

I only know ed online. and wish he would come back every so often, I don't know how anyone could be "forced" out, the main thing is he sometimes was arrogant and condescending to some newbies. He is very knowledgeable.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 27, 2010)

dmmj said:


> I only know ed online. and wish he would come back every so often, I don't know how anyone could be "forced" out, the main thing is he sometimes was arrogant and condescending to some newbies. He is very knowledgeable.



He left of his own accord, but he said it was because of the way I treated him.


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## PeanutbuttER (Dec 27, 2010)

I would like to point out that this thread is a great example of why I don't like to search the forum for things. You find a thread that looks like it will have every little detail on some subject you're interested in and after a couple posts it delineates into back and forth chit chat.  

I probably should mention that as the OP I could care less that this thread turned into that. I had my idea, others commented on it, I learned something, and only after that did it get off topic. I'm pleased with the discussion that's already happened (THOUGH I gladly welcome anyone with a thought or viewpoint on it to feel free to steer us back on-topic).


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## Yvonne G (Dec 27, 2010)

I'm sorry. As a moderator I shouldn't have let the OT stuff escalate and I even contributed to it. 

Consider the moderator whip cracked!


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## PeanutbuttER (Dec 27, 2010)

You're fine Yvonne. I am not cracking any whips today. Off-topic doesn't generally bother me at all. That's actually one reason why I'd be a lousy moderator.


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## Madkins007 (Dec 27, 2010)

LOL! I was getting into reading about Ed so much I sort of forgot it was off topic! 

I'm all for feeding more 'healthy filler'!


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## stells (Dec 28, 2010)

You might be better at it than you think... Moderators are about putting things right... not cracking whips... or getting power hungry... unless it's something really bad... 

but thats another problem...

Iceberg... i use it on occassions... it is good to bulk out other food stuffs when they are scarce... and is also good for hydration... it isn't something that should be a staple though... 



PeanutbuttER said:


> You're fine Yvonne. I am not cracking any whips today. Off-topic doesn't generally bother me at all. That's actually one reason why I'd be a lousy moderator.


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## Candy (Dec 28, 2010)

Stells wrote:

You might be better at it than you think... Moderators are about putting things right... not cracking whips... or getting power hungry... unless it's something really bad...

but thats another problem...



EXACTLY! Couldn't have been put any better then this. I do believe we are adults and don't need a moderator coming in especially if the OP doesn't mind the conversation. Yvonne I always thought that you were nothing but respectful to Ed on here. Now I have something to think about....Iceberg lettuce?


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## Balboa (Dec 30, 2010)

While searching around on ShelledWarriors for Ed posts (mostly for his pyramiding theories) I ran across this thread, and I thought Peanut might appreciate it.

http://www.shelledwarriors.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=38042

It seems Ed is still advocating Mazuri, as well as ... T REX!! and many other pelleted foods, ie "Fruity Pebbles"


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## PeanutbuttER (Dec 31, 2010)

Holy COW. It's 29 pages long!!! 

Thanks for that Balboa, I'll read through it. How in the world is he recommending T-REX? That stuff sucks on ice!


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