# Is this Cruel?



## russian (Jul 30, 2008)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8qoklv4Pg8I


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## RTfanatic (Jul 30, 2008)

Would be MUCH more cruel if it was male-to-male fighting over territory. A sulcata that size could really hurt a smaller desert tortoise.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 30, 2008)

Cruel and stupid! There are some who believe that released Sulcata or other exotic tortoises are the reason our native tortoises have contracted the mycoplasma that is killing them in the wild.

Yvonne


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## wayne.bob (Jul 30, 2008)

why would anyone allow this behavior. to me this guy is sick.


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## -EJ (Aug 1, 2008)

Add me to the list...

The person has a choice... Isolate the tortoises giving each one their own space half the size of the one they have or allow the tortoises to go about their business...

I don't see where that tortoise is being harmed. It's not like the Sulcatas entire weight is on the DT...

As to the introduction of disease... there is mounting evidence that this is totally wrong and yet another scare tactic...

Ed




wayne.bob said:


> why would anyone allow this behavior. to me this guy is sick.


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## -EJ (Aug 1, 2008)

That's what any tortoise does when it does not want to be receptive.
If that DT can move that quick... It's not being harmed. As to the stress of breeding... would you prevent 2 DTs from breeding?

What the Sulcata could do and what it is doing... very different. I seem to remember that DTs are way more distructive to each other than Sulcatas are. I've never seen a Sulcata bite another tortoise.

Also... how do you know that was not a one shot deal?

Stupid would have been to take action if it is not necessary... If you watch that clip it is amazing the different behaviours that are captured on film. The person taking this shot obviously knew what they were doing. I'm greatful for it... that was a really cool video on so many different levels. Show that to an animal behaviorist and I'd be very surprised if you did not get the same reaction as mine.

Ed


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## -EJ (Aug 1, 2008)

Again... that's your perception... I keep hearing about maintaining these animals as natural as possible. The flight response is part of the natural process. The owner obviously provides for an escape... as you pointed out.

I'll bet you any amount you do not remove all sources of potential harm that your tortoise is exposed to if you keep them outdoors... I'll bet you there is even some potential in their indoor enclosure.

That little looks no where near pinned down or being harmed. 

Ed


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## old4x4 (Aug 1, 2008)

I couldn't finish watching it. What a fool.


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## -EJ (Aug 1, 2008)

I don't see where there was any kind of debate. 

You expressed an opinion and I expressed a different opinion... the chat was nice.

Ed


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## terryo (Aug 1, 2008)

What possible reason could that man have for stressing out his DT????? I would never bring my Chihuahua to a doggie run with all Rottweilers . I thought it was awful....


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## -EJ (Aug 1, 2008)

It's a reptile... not a mammal... not a person... a reptile...

The reason... providing more space for both.

Ed



terryo said:


> What possible reason could that man have for stressing out his DT????? I would never bring my Chihuahua to a doggie run with all Rottweilers . I thought it was awful....


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## terryo (Aug 1, 2008)

So Ed, you're saying that a tortoise, reptile...whatever...has no feelings of fear or stress??


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## terryo (Aug 1, 2008)

I was just thinking...this is a good topic for the debate forum.


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## -EJ (Aug 1, 2008)

This isn't a debate because I don't see what evidence you can provide to show that a tortoise has 'feelings'.

The flight response is a reflexive action in response to outside stimulus...

Feelings implies... ohhhh... He's hurting me... please make it go awwaaaaay...

Again... I don't see were there was pain of suffering shown in that video... I'm looking at a natural behavior even though there are two different species.

Ed



terryo said:


> So Ed, you're saying that a tortoise, reptile...whatever...has no feelings of fear or stress??


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## terryo (Aug 1, 2008)

I hope I don't get "reprimanded" again for this. On the advice of lots of experienced tortoise owners, I separated my Cherry Head and Three Toed that were together since hatchlings. It didn't seem to bother the Three Toed, IMO, but the Cherry Head was a different story. He went into the small hide, came out walked across the whole enclosure, went into the big hide, came out, and kept pacing back and forth ....up and down....He didn't not eat for two days. On the third day, after seeing him pace and not eat, I felt bad, and put them together again. He is back to eating, and sleeping in the same hide as the Three Toed, also follows him around all day. I also know someone on another forum who has an Ornate with a Redfoot, and she also separated them and now has put them back together because neither would eat and both seemed stressed. After she put them together, they were fine. I don't know if this has anything to do with feelings, but it has to account for something.....doesn't it?


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## elegans (Aug 1, 2008)

I do think that it was indeed cruel and horrible. The DT was without almost any doubt very stressed. I also do not believe that ANY old world species should be mixed with ANY new world species. There is a lot of evidence to support this. Even if you think the rest of what I have said is crap. LOL Best to all Douglas


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## terryo (Aug 1, 2008)

Douglas, could you explain what you mean by old world species and new world species? Do you mean tortoises and box turtle? I just want to say that mine are together because they are still very small, and am in the process of building an outdoor box turtle pen, for the three toed, which she will be in year round. My Cherry Head will have his own enclosure. But yes...it was cruel and horrible.


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## Jentortmom (Aug 1, 2008)

IMO that was not fun to watch! actually I stopped watching and scrolled down to the comments, stating the DT deserved it because he should know not to go into the sullys yard in the afternoon? duh they are gonna go where ever they can. Me personally I would not allow my sullys to meet my Dt's and for that guy to allow the dt to get stressed like that for his amusement is wrong, If we talk about keeping things natural then a sully would not come across a dt as in the wild they live on seperate continents, and should not be allowed togehter or worse allowed to mate.


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## elegans (Aug 2, 2008)

The "new World" includes North America, Central America and South America. Everything else is "Old World." I would still never mix Asian, Mediterranean and African species together either though. If they don't cohabitate in the wild I would not let them do so in captivity. I do know a number of people that do keep box turtles with their redfoots with seemingly no adverse affects. Best to all Douglas


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## Laura (Aug 4, 2008)

If you fast forward to teh end.. the guy says 'security entrance', safety.. and Flash is looking for his 'victim.. Poor DT was panicked.. He nees to keep them seperate.. 
And no one shoud be purposely breeding DT...It donest do anything for the species since you cant release them. It just makes more that need homes and there are plenty in need already. Yes. babies are neat to get and cute.. but they all grow up..


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## evin (Aug 8, 2008)

if you were trying to maintain these torts as natural as possible they wouldnt be together, and i know most keepers try to reduce any potential harm in out side or inside enclosures


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## Laura (Aug 10, 2008)

If we kept them as natural as possible,, then i guess we would need to have a drought, not feed them, make food sparse most of the time and make them walk miles to find it, give them predators to hide from etc etc.. We do most likely over feed, maybe thats why sulcatas grow so fast.. in the wild, thier food source is not all that great.. and look at DT's desert...Most animal live longer in captivity due to better care and food. We can and should simulate some things and make others better.


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## evin (Aug 10, 2008)

we should simmulate things, but keeping two tortoises that wouldnt cross paths in the wild is not one of them if they dont get along


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## james (Sep 6, 2008)

it looks like the sulcata was trying to mate with the DT. his mouth was open when he was on top of the DT, and i've seen that in every mating picture i've looked at. regardless, this is ridiculous. who ever recorded this needs to have 5 sumo wrestlers pile on top of him for a few minutes. i don't know how the video ended, i stopped it after a minute or so. you can call it cruel.


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## Marla (Oct 12, 2008)

*Well I for one could not finish watching this..Yes this is cruel for many reasons..Some people may think it funny but that is just horrible..*


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## Josh (Oct 12, 2008)

i flagged the video "violent - animal abuse"


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## Oogie (Mar 12, 2009)

gee...i just think that sulcata was finally getting the DT back for this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nHJSQ2vpAg

it was the day the same DT was introduced to the same sulcata...it's actually funny.

but...

i agree...there is a potential for serious injury and i would never want to chance it.


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