# Fleas...help!



## bllauben (Dec 29, 2010)

Long story short: Dec. 24, I adopted a 10 year old cat infested with fleas (did not know about the fleas). Yesterday, I discover my youngest cat was infected. Today, I am treating all three cats with dawn dish soap bath. Spraying the living areas with a natural flea repellant (rosemary oil and cedar oil) mixed with dawn. Safe to use on cats. Might use it after they dry to make sure all the fleas are gone. Was given something called FleaVac for the vacuum cleaner. Thoroughly going to combat before this gets out of hand.

Here's where I'm lost: I have 2 russian torts. Patches, my latest flea victim, is best buddies with them. I'm assuming that fleas are not good for the torts either. How do I go about treating the enclosure?

--Beth


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## Shelly (Dec 29, 2010)

Fleas won't bother the torts. They look for warm blooded animals as hosts.


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## Laura (Dec 29, 2010)

Can you get Frontline ? it will kill any flea that jumps on the cats.. it may take a bit to rid the area of the fleas.. but it works great.. 
Or Advantage.. both great and safe and you usually get it from your Vet. 

DO NOT use the cheap stuff from the Grocery stores.. many of those say do not use on cats and even the other stuff can cause serious issues..


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## bllauben (Dec 29, 2010)

Laura said:


> Can you get Frontline ? it will kill any flea that jumps on the cats.. it may take a bit to rid the area of the fleas.. but it works great..
> Or Advantage.. both great and safe and you usually get it from your Vet.
> 
> DO NOT use the cheap stuff from the Grocery stores.. many of those say do not use on cats and even the other stuff can cause serious issues..



I try to go all natural when it comes to my pets. I *was* considering frontline because I know it works. However, the new cat (Pico) is a bit sick. Kinda on the thin side. I was worried that the Frontline would make her even more sick. Given her age and her body condition and that the fact that Frontline contains neurotoxins, I am hestitant to use it on her. Waiting on the boyfriend to come home from work before we give her a dawn dish soap bath. Already gave the other two a bath. Then we'll apply the herbal flea spray (recommended by the holistic health pet food store owner who has also cured two of my cats from digestive issues).

Thanks!
--Beth


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## kimber_lee_314 (Dec 29, 2010)

Advantage is very safe ... I even use it on my rabbits. It won't hurt the sickly cat ... it may actually be beneficial in getting him healthier. I hate using poisons on my critters as well, so I only apply it when I actually see fleas ... usually 2-3 times per years. It will take care of the fleas in one treatment and you probably won't have to use it again since you don't seem to have a consistent issue with them. The fleas won't bother the tortoise at all.


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## coreyc (Dec 29, 2010)

I would also flea bomb your house the eggs will be around. I had to do it a few years ago when one of my cats got out . depending on how bad it is I would put a bomb in each room an then vacuum really good to get all the eggs and dead fleas


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## yagyujubei (Dec 29, 2010)

Dawn is "all natural"? I have used Frontline on young kittens with no ill effects, except for the fleas, which died. Cats have very sensitive skin, I personally wouldn't use dawn on them. As far as your repellent goes, you need to kill the fleas, not just repel them. Also, the flea load on the new cat may be part of it's condition problems. Good luck whichever way you go.


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## Nay (Dec 29, 2010)

Hi Beth, sucks about fleas, but good news is those products work.
Neurotoxins yes, but only to insects. Will not affect mammals. Use it for 3-4 months in a row and vacuum really well(get rid of bag) and you'll do fine. I agree with the other post, fleas drain an animal, especially a sick one, very fast.
You'll have to everyone in the house, can get pricey. Look on ebay. 
good luck
Nay


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## matt41gb (Dec 29, 2010)

Frontline doesn't work. I've had two clients come in with fleas after being on Frontline for two weeks. Go to the vet, get a Capstar. Capstar will only work for about a day, but it will kill the fleas on your cat. Fleas bite every 30 minutes, so you will see them start to fall off. Follow that up with Advantage (imidacloprid), or Advantage Multi (imidicloprid/moxidectin. I prefer the Advantage Multi since it has heartworm prevention in it. There is no cure for feline heartworm disease, only prevention. Advantage Multi will not hurt your cat, but it will make them foam at the mouth if ingested. Only about 5% of the flea population is actually on your cat, the rest is in the environment. Good luck! 

-Matt


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## Laura (Dec 29, 2010)

people think Forntline and Advantage dont work cuz they still see fleas.. 
the fleas LIVE IN THE ENVIROMENT>>> not On the cats.. it only kills the fleas once they jump on the cat to eat.. its not an overnite cure.. 
but it does kill them.. got to work on the surroundings as well..


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## matt41gb (Dec 29, 2010)

I'll tell you now that Frontline does not work. There is a resistance to it and more and more people are coming in to the clinic with their cat/dog covered in fleas (fleas that are biting them.) Advantage is the only topical that I would suggest using. There have not been any resistances to it reported. 

-Matt


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## Torty Mom (Dec 29, 2010)

You can use 4 parts borax and 1 part salt and sprinkle in your carpet. The borax and salt burn the eggs so they don't hatch thus breaking the cycle. I tried it many many years ago. Because of our parrot we didn't want to use any bombs or poison. It worked great for us. Good luck, it's a nightmare for sure!!!


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## Lady Serpent (Jan 1, 2011)

Torty Mom said:


> You can use 4 parts borax and 1 part salt and sprinkle in your carpet. The borax and salt burn the eggs so they don't hatch thus breaking the cycle. I tried it many many years ago. Because of our parrot we didn't want to use any bombs or poison. It worked great for us. Good luck, it's a nightmare for sure!!!



Borax and salt work miracles! I leave it in the carpet and bare floor for about 3 hours before I vacuum it up. Our house was sooo covered with fleas, it was crazy! Even called the exterminator and they couldn't rid the fleas, and we still had to pay! Borax and salt, is cheap and it WORKS!


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## Jerseynox (Jan 1, 2011)

if i remember correctly the dawn will remove the beneficial oils from the cats fur & skin


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## Laura (Jan 1, 2011)

diatomaceous earth work too, but its very dusty..


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## moswen (Jan 1, 2011)

you need to get everyone out of the house for a day and fogger your house, go all around all the baseboards and don't leave anything left out. flea eggs are going to be your biggest problem. get those things killed!


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## bllauben (Jan 28, 2011)

I ended up taking Pico (now Nina) to the vet. She had a skin infection that "should have been treated months ago." She was given an antibiotic shot for that. All three cats were placed on Advantage for two cycles. The floors were thoroughly cleaned. The fleas are gone (thank goodness since it only costs us $260).

Just got back from the vet. Her body condition has improved. Her behavior has not. She acts like she has been abused. Behaves beautifully around me. Acts like a demon cat when the boyfriend gets home. Has attacked me, the boyfriend and my two other cats. She was put on draszepan (if I spelled that right). She attacks the boyfriend every time he attempts to touch me. The vet has never seen this behavior in a cat. He basically stated that I rescued "damaged goods" and that he would work with me as long as I would work with Nina. I told him that even if he cannot fix her, we're still going to love her and accept her for who she is.


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## Tom (Jan 28, 2011)

Many people think that cats are not trainable or that they are difficult to train. Wrong on both counts. I do it for a living and its very easy. Here are two concepts to help with your behavior problems:
Concept #1. If a behavior is followed by a positive consequence it IS likely to occur again.
Concept #2. If a behavior is followed by a negative consequence it is likely to NOT occur again.

The real genius is in figuring out and applying exactly what is positive or negative at that moment for that animal. Drugs will not fix this, but proper training will. Accepting her for the "way she is" is a good way to send a human to the hospital with septicemia. Cat bites are one of the worst there are.

Just curious. Was she a bottle fed baby?

Hope this helps, glad she is doing better, and thanks for updating us.


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## bllauben (Jan 29, 2011)

Tom said:


> Just curious. Was she a bottle fed baby?
> 
> Hope this helps, glad she is doing better, and thanks for updating us.



I am sorry. I don't know. We got her this last Christmas Eve. She came from my coworker who happens to have a drinking problem. From our observations, our conversations with our vet, a friend at the local humane society and a friend who happens to be a vet tech, we have a strong feeling she was abused (she shows classical signs, including "hand watching"). She was definately neglected. She was a bit too thin when we got her. Her fur was barely there and she was COVERED in sores. An antibiotic shot, flea treatment and a proper diet later, the vet is impressed by her physical improvement. For a cat who is about 10 years old, the vet is very impressed.

We're doing some positive association training with her. When the boyfriend is not home, she acts like an angel. When he's home, she's a demon kitty. So, when the boyfriend sees or approaches Nina, he is going to give her a treat. Our thinking is that if she associates him with something good, she won't be so mean around him.

When it comes to training, I am of the mind that all training should be positive. I really don't believe in negative reinforcement. I think that just creates fusterations for both the human and pet. I'd rather wait for the correct behavior and reward that and ingore the behaviors I don't want.

Thanks!


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## Tom (Jan 29, 2011)

Just FYI, Vets, Vet techs and humane society workers don't tend to be good trainers. My wife was two out of the three and she is admittedly terrible at behavior modification. She's an animal lover, not an animal trainer. I get a lot of my clients because people in the above three categories recommend euthanasia for "incorrigible" or aggressive animals. I have not had a client put one down yet in 20 years. Vets don't generally understand behavior modification any better than you or I understand surgery.

Negative reinforcement IS positive. You are talking about operant conditioning. There are two means of "reinforcement" and two means of "punishment" within that system of behavior modification. When using the terms "positive" and "negative" think in terms of math. Adding something or taking something away.

1. Positive reinforcement. Adding something that they do like. Example: Giving a food treat for NOT hissing at the boyfriend. This will encourage kitty to not hiss at the bf.
2. Negative reinforcement. Taking away something they don't like. Example: Bf leaves the room when kitty hisses at him. This will encourage kitty to hiss at the boyfriend more, as it got her a positive (in her mind) consequence.
3. Positive punishment. Adding something they don't like. Example: When kitty hisses at bf, he moves closer to her. If done correctly this should teach kitty that aggression toward bf will get her more of what she does NOT want.
4. Negative punishment. Taking away something they do like. Example: Bf puts down the food bowl and kitty hisses, so he picks the food bowl back up. If repeated correctly, kitty will learn NOT to hiss at bf if kitty wants the food bowl to stay down.

There are a lot of misunderstandings about "positive reinforcement" techniques and their 3 companion, complimentary techniques. Punishment does not necessarily mean some sort of physical force applied to an animal, and it isn't necessarily "bad". It can be as simple as standing still, doing nothing and just not leaving when an animal is demonstrating undesirable behavior (this would be positive punishment). As soon as the undesirable behavior stops the person calmly backs away and exits the area (this would be negative reinforcement). It all works really well IF applied correctly.

There is a great book called "Don't Shoot The Dog", by Karen Pryor that explains the above in much greater detail. It might really help you guys and your situation.

Again, glad your cat is doing better health wise and wishing you the best behavior wise.


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## dmmj (Jan 30, 2011)

I know of a flea problem fix, I haven never done it but my family swears by it, you get a tray fill it with water and some dish soap, place a light over the tray and the fleas are supposed to jump in the water and then frown because of the soapy water, plain water is not supposed to work. I have never used this method but like I said my family swears by it.


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## bllauben (Jan 30, 2011)

Tom said:


> Just FYI, Vets, Vet techs and humane society workers don't tend to be good trainers. My wife was two out of the three and she is admittedly terrible at behavior modification. She's an animal lover, not an animal trainer. I get a lot of my clients because people in the above three categories recommend euthanasia for "incorrigible" or aggressive animals. I have not had a client put one down yet in 20 years. Vets don't generally understand behavior modification any better than you or I understand surgery.
> 
> Negative reinforcement IS positive. You are talking about operant conditioning. There are two means of "reinforcement" and two means of "punishment" within that system of behavior modification. When using the terms "positive" and "negative" think in terms of math. Adding something or taking something away.
> 
> ...



That clears it up. Thanks! I'm definately going to have to work with her on her behaviors. I know she's a sweet kitty. I think I know why she apparently hates men, but I agree, her behavior has to change.

Thanks!


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## exoticsdr (Jan 30, 2011)

Fleas are always an environmental problem and only use your warm blooded pets as a buffet before making millions of little fleas. The only effective way to end an infestation is to fight them on an environmental level as well as on the animal. For cats, take your pick: Frontline, Advantage/Multi, Revolution, NOTHING OVER THE COUNTER (i.e. biospot, sargents, hartz).
There are four stages to the flea life cycle: the adult, egg, larvae and pupae (cocoon). You can kill the first three very easily, but while they are encased in their pouch, gasoline wont kill them. So, I recommend (with great success) to treat the environment three times, 10-14 days apart, and you will get rid of the fleas. Vaccuuming is good, I like to place a piece of a flea collar in the bagged varieties (the only good way to use a flea collar, BTW) and recommend emptying bagless machines after every use. There may be some resistance forming to certain products, but what I see is ineffective strategies employed to fight infestations: treating too soon or too long after previous treatments, not using the proper treatments on the pet, not using products because of a lack of knowledge of how they work.


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## Nay (Jan 30, 2011)

Tom, 
FYI, you are a kindred spirit. 
I have been in the animal field for over 25 years. When Cesar came into the picture, many people poo pooed him as bad. He never claimed to be a dog 'trainer'. But people just saw his 'roughness'.I saw a man who had more intuitiveness dogs than any other person on the planet. You train horses the same way. Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult. Folks want a quick fix with pills, as in many aspects of there life. 
We have taken in many 'rescue ' dogs,(Only one at a time), One was a pit that was supposed to be euthanized for being a potential 'time bomb' waiting to happen.(Just because, never had he done anything. The last 'trainer' said he would never be a good pet.she was a 'postive' reinforcement only. Try stopping a charging pit with a cookie. We brought him into our house with 4 pekes, 2 large dogs, 3 cats and a few birds etc. From the moment I walked him into our house, (me first!) I knew he would be OK. It took quite a while for him to get a new home just because of the word pit, but after finding the right match, (young man who is very active) I am happy to say a few years later he is perfect.
I am sorry this is off topic and although I have much experience with fleas, I don't have alot with training cats..
I agree Advantage multi is the way to go, Fleas are becoming resistant to Frontline.
BTW I have a pack of Multi if you need it. PM me.
Nay


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## zoogrl (Jan 30, 2011)

matt41gb said:


> Frontline doesn't work. I've had two clients come in with fleas after being on Frontline for two weeks. Go to the vet, get a Capstar. Capstar will only work for about a day, but it will kill the fleas on your cat. Fleas bite every 30 minutes, so you will see them start to fall off. Follow that up with Advantage (imidacloprid), or Advantage Multi (imidicloprid/moxidectin. I prefer the Advantage Multi since it has heartworm prevention in it. There is no cure for feline heartworm disease, only prevention. Advantage Multi will not hurt your cat, but it will make them foam at the mouth if ingested. Only about 5% of the flea population is actually on your cat, the rest is in the environment. Good luck!
> 
> -Matt
> 
> ...


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## Yvonne G (Jan 30, 2011)

dmmj said:


> I know of a flea problem fix, I haven never done it but my family swears by it, you get a tray fill it with water and some dish soap, place a light over the tray and the fleas are supposed to jump in the water and then frown because of the soapy water, plain water is not supposed to work. I have never used this method but like I said my family swears by it.



A sticky trap placed by a night light in a low receptacle works in this same fashion.


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## bllauben (Jan 30, 2011)

Turns out that Nina's behavior has everything to do with her previous owner. I was talking to my assistant manager. Her previous owner is a self proclaimed wife beater. Nina's reaction to my boyfriend is not an aggressive response like I thought. Rather, it's a defensive response. Still, we are working on getting her to trust the boyfriend. She's getting along better with the other cats now--which is a good thing.


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