# Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a tortoise enclosure?



## ICUSleeping (Sep 15, 2012)

Please note: A copy of this thread was placed into this section, so those of us who want to debate IF a snake should be killed simply for being found in a tortoise's enclosure or not.


The other night i had a dream that a snake got to my lil zeus outside. I told my husband about it and he just brushed me off saying he'll be ok. Well last night i let zeus spend the night for the first time outside he has a strong net like covering the top of his habitat. Worried that something might happen to him i ask my husband is it a good idea he told me he'll be fine nothing can get to him. So today in this beautiful florida weather its raining and sunny i figured zeus is having a blast. I go to check on him and i hear something to my right i look and its a SNAKE!!! I screamed for my husband he went and got the shovel. He ask's me Wheres Zeus? ...I say in his burrow... wheres the snake? ....Going under the net RIGHT BEHIND zeus's BURROW!!! I jump under the net stick my hand in his burrow and grab him. My husband screaming WHAT ARE YOU DOING YOUR CRAZY! You could of got bit. I didnt care i wasnt going to let the snake get zeus ... My husband beheads the snake and it wasnt poisonous But now i know its time to change his enclousre. No more wandering jew. No more net. Lesson learned


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## mattgrizzlybear (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close incouter with a snake*

THAT is called love! That you would jump infront of a snake not knowing if it was posionous or not. Again, THAT is called LOVE!


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## Yvonne G (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

I really doubt a snake would eat a tortoise. I think that they see heat, and mammals give off more heat than reptiles.


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## Jacqui (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

 you killed the snake?


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## ICUSleeping (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

We had too..We didnt know if it was poisonous or not. We have a 2 year old, Cat and dog and zeus


Jacqui said:


> you killed the snake?





The snake was WAY bigger then my little 4in 7mnt old tort. Iv seen large snakes eat just about anything they can swallow. Zeus habitat is full of small and large frogs that kept disappearing. Now we know it was the snake eatting them. So im sure it was a matter of time before he would of tryed zeus.


emysemys said:


> I really doubt a snake would eat a tortoise. I think that they see heat, and mammals give off more heat than reptiles.


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## DeanS (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



emysemys said:


> I really doubt a snake would eat a tortoise. I think that they see heat, and mammals give off more heat than reptiles.



Except in Florida where the heat register on the carapace can reach more than 100F  But, no! I doubt even a Burmese...a Florida native, you know  would try to eat a tortoise! Alligator, yes! Tortoise? Doubtful!


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## KTyne (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

I'm sorry but in my opinion you shouldn't have killed that snake. Snakes are more afraid of us and you could have just removed it and released it somewhere else.
Plus, a snake isn't going to eat your Tortoise.


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## acrantophis (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

What a tragedy that you killed a snake. No snake is poisonous they are venomous. Things like mushrooms are poisonous, things that deploy a toxin are venomous. Please learn how to deal with them without killing them. It's very simple. A long stick and a little prodding can coax most snakes to just move along. It pains me to think of all the snakes beheaded by a shovel and a misguided individual.


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## SulcataSquirt (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

I think you did fine killing the snake, not everything can live forever, expecially a snake in your yard. lol Now another wild animal will have food without having to fight for it. Do all you people freak out on someone else when they kill a spider? Im sure you do. Or how many people have set mouse traps and kill a mouse? SHAME ON YOU. and last i knew venom , is being posioned.


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## Ruchonnet (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

I think that if you would have just found it wandering your yard you shouldn't have killed it. But if you were scared for your tortoises safety I definitely understand where you came from. I think everyone is being a little too mean and judgmental...


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## Creedence (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



Ruchonnet said:


> I think that if you would have just found it wandering your yard you shouldn't have killed it. But if you were scared for your tortoises safety I definitely understand where you came from. I think everyone is being a little too mean and judgmental...



Agreed.


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## HLogic (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

The only native snake in FL that would eat a tortoise is an indigo snake. If you killed an indigo snake, that could be a problem.

It is advisable to learn to identify the snakes living in your area, particularly the venomous ones. Although it is unlikely you would ever suffer envenomation from a snakebite, it behooves you to know which snakes are cause for additional caution.


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## shellysmom (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

Wow, you were definitely brave to grab a snake without having any idea if it was venomous or not. Now that you know such a snake is not a threat, if you ever encounter another one like that, you can let it go.


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## KTyne (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



SulcataSquirt said:


> I think you did fine killing the snake, not everything can live forever, expecially a snake in your yard. lol Now another wild animal will have food without having to fight for it. Do all you people freak out on someone else when they kill a spider? Im sure you do. Or how many people have set mouse traps and kill a mouse? SHAME ON YOU. and last i knew venom , is being posioned.



I don't kill Spiders, I release them. If I were to ever set a trap for a mouse or rat it would be a live trap and then the animal would be released outside.
ANY misguided killing of an animal is wrong. She didn't know what kind of snake it was. What if it was endangered or protected?


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## lovelyrosepetal (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

I don't know if I would have killed the snake. I might have. I have seven children and while I like snakes, I don't know which ones are poisonous and which ones are not. I think that if it is on your property and you are scared for the life of someone or something that you are responsible for then you have to do what you think is best. She was protecting her tortoise, who on this forum would not have protected their tortoise? She did not do it the way you would have but she did the best she could at the time. I don't see anything wrong with it. Besides, not everyone is a snake person. I only like ones that are not going to inject their venom in me. I don't think that is wrong. I think it is more sad when I drive down the highway in the spring and summer and see dead, squashed turtles and box turtles on the side of the road because people are not looking out for them and run them over. I just think that we should keep in mind that ICU Sleeping was doing her best to keep her tortoise baby from danger. I don't see anything wrong with that.


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## KTyne (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



lovelyrosepetal said:


> I don't know if I would have killed the snake. I might have. I have seven children and while I like snakes, I don't know which ones are poisonous and which ones are not. I think that if it is on your property and you are scared for the life of someone or something that you are responsible for then you have to do what you think is best. She was protecting her tortoise, who on this forum would not have protected their tortoise? She did not do it the way you would have but she did the best she could at the time. I don't see anything wrong with it. Besides, not everyone is a snake person. I only like ones that are not going to inject their venom in me. I don't think that is wrong. I think it is more sad when I drive down the highway in the spring and summer and see dead, squashed turtles and box turtles on the side of the road because people are not looking out for them and run them over. I just think that we should keep in mind that ICU Sleeping was doing her best to keep her tortoise baby from danger. I don't see anything wrong with that.



This is true, I would have done anything to protect my baby too. I wouldn't have killed the snake though. I would have found a broom or something and shoo'd it away and then grabbed the Tortoise.


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## Madkins007 (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



acrantophis said:


> What a tragedy that you killed a snake. No snake is poisonous they are venomous. Things like mushrooms are poisonous, things that deploy a toxin are venomous. Please learn how to deal with them without killing them. It's very simple. A long stick and a little prodding can coax most snakes to just move along. It pains me to think of all the snakes beheaded by a shovel and a misguided individual.



I agree with the not killing snakes bit- although I also understand human fears and emotions.

My thought with this post, though, is that there are specific meanings for the terms poison, venom, and toxin. Poisons are the large class of materials that in sufficient doses injure, sicken, or kill organisms.

Toxins are naturally occurring poisons, and venoms are toxins that are administered through bites or stings, usually as a protective or hunting measure. Certainly, the word 'poison' is also used to describe the ingestion or absorption of some form of poison, but that is more appropriate when the word is used as a verb than as a noun. 

If something, like a snake, is venomous, it is ALSO, by ANY definition of the word 'poisonous'. In fact, if it is not poisonous, it cannot be venomous. 

Calling a snake 'venomous' is a more precise and accurate usage- but 'poisonous' is not wrong in any way, shape, or form. A quick 'googling' of 'poisonous snake' shows many reputable and even scientific sites using the term.


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## LuckysGirl007 (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

I agree that killing snakes or other living things is bad. However, I have a rule for these things. For us the main problem is scorpions in the house. My "understanding" with them is that they can live in peace with me OUTSIDE! If they come inside (I don't care if they are looking for heat or whatever) they must die. Putting them back outside just allows them to come right back in. When I lived out in the desert years back with my Aunt and Uncle (try had 5 acres that backed up to state land way back in dirt roads) if we found a rattler that was not being super aggressive and were able to pin it to do a "catch and release" we did. However, if it was hanging out around the dogs or horse or would not scare off they would kill it. Most of the time we didn't have to do this. But there was once or twice when they felt there was no other safe option for their pets. A snake in my tort pen? Well, it would have to go! Especially if you suspected it has been using your frogs as a Buffett! It had become accustomed to easy pray and heat and would only try to return to someone's back yard instead of living out in it's environment.


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## taytay3391 (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



KTyne said:


> I don't kill Spiders, I release them. If I were to ever set a trap for a mouse or rat it would be a live trap and then the animal would be released outside.
> ANY misguided killing of an animal is wrong. She didn't know what kind of snake it was. What if it was endangered or protected?



Jeez! You did fine! Someone or something would have killed the snake anyway. CIRCLE OF LIFE, EVERYTHING DIES.

Are you a vegan?


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## TheTortoiseWhisperer (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

ICUSleeping, you're not the only one who would have killed the snake especially because you have a 2 year oldâ€¦.I have no idea which snakes are poisonous, venomous or whatever you want to call it, all I know that if I'm bitten by the wrong one I could very well die, so if any decide to come in my yard, IT'S A GONNER FOR SURE!!!!!! I just can't see myself memorizing the difference between one snake and another nor do I see myself googling it real quick either and I'm certainly not gonna let it hang around my house if I can help it. So the lesson I learned today was if or when it happens to me, I won't post it here.


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## Momof4 (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

Family comes first! My husband probably would have killed it too. Unless we knew exactly what it was. I hate snakes with a passion but I know there are a few in my area that are good. Like Kings, garden and gopher. Anything else would have been a killed.


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## TheTortoiseWhisperer (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



lovelyrosepetal said:


> I don't know if I would have killed the snake. I might have. I have seven children and while I like snakes, I don't know which ones are poisonous and which ones are not. I think that if it is on your property and you are scared for the life of someone or something that you are responsible for then you have to do what you think is best. She was protecting her tortoise, who on this forum would not have protected their tortoise? She did not do it the way you would have but she did the best she could at the time. I don't see anything wrong with it. Besides, not everyone is a snake person. I only like ones that are not going to inject their venom in me. I don't think that is wrong. I think it is more sad when I drive down the highway in the spring and summer and see dead, squashed turtles and box turtles on the side of the road because people are not looking out for them and run them over. I just think that we should keep in mind that ICU Sleeping was doing her best to keep her tortoise baby from danger. I don't see anything wrong with that.




I ABSOLUTELY AGREE!!!!


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## SulcataSquirt (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

I just sick of all these people going peta on someone who protected their tort from a snake. Weither she killed an endanged snaked or not, the snaked invaded her space and it was killed. Its the same thing here in st.louis with most people, you invade their personal space, you will most likely get shot. Too many people worry about animals being killed. its the circle of life. The snake would have been eaten eventually either way. If i coyote came and killed your dog would you pet in on the head and say awwww good coyote? hell no, you would shoot that damn thing, and be waiting for more to come to kill them too.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

Wow, ICUSleeping... I'll bet you're ever so sorry you let the cat out of the bag about killing the snake. One just never knows what is going to turn into a hot topic here on the forum.

Let's all calm down now, and quit picking on ICUsleeping. You never know what you are capable of until you are put into that situation. We are a family-oriented forum, and we don't point fingers, call names or be rude to our members. You don't have to like snake killing, but you certainly don't have to climb all over someone who has done so.


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## TheTortoiseWhisperer (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



shellysmom said:


> Wow, you were definitely brave to grab a snake without having any idea if it was venomous or not. Now that you know such a snake is not a threat, if you ever encounter another one like that, you can let it go.



Now this is a mature, compassionate and understanding response with great advise tooâ€¦..VERY NICE SHELLYSMOM!!!!!


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## SulcataSquirt (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

I agree, It seems everytime i go to read somthing, theirs always 3-4 people that are totally taking the fun out of the post, leaving the OP feelling like they should never post good updates like this again. To dream about a snaked getting your tort, and then actually having a snake come with in inches of your tort while you are right their! now thats just crazy stuff i like to hear about and glad everything came out good. Its hard to say ya id just grab that snake up and move it. thats not the case for 90% of people.


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## diaboliqueturtle (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

Seriously?! A threat shows up near my kids or torts and you better believe I'll rip it apart! 
You did good, protecting your family comes first.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

I must admit, I'd probably take a shovel to the snake too. I don't like them and I know nothing about them, and I don't want to know anything about them.

But I DO catch spiders up in a Kleenex and let them go outside.


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## TheTortoiseWhisperer (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



emysemys said:


> Wow, ICUSleeping... I'll bet you're ever so sorry you let the cat out of the bag about killing the snake. One just never knows what is going to turn into a hot topic here on the forum.
> 
> Let's all calm down now, and quit picking on ICUsleeping. You never know what you are capable of until you are put into that situation. We are a family-oriented forum, and we don't point fingers, call names or be rude to our members. You don't have to like snake killing, but you certainly don't have to climb all over someone who has done so.



EMYSEMY'Sâ€¦..Very nicely said. I hope ICUSleeping comes back to see that most people here are understanding and aren't as judgmental.


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## Xander (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



emysemys said:


> Wow, ICUSleeping... I'll bet you're ever so sorry you let the cat out of the bag about killing the snake. One just never knows what is going to turn into a hot topic here on the forum.
> 
> Let's all calm down now, and quit picking on ICUsleeping. You never know what you are capable of until you are put into that situation. We are a family-oriented forum, and we don't point fingers, call names or be rude to our members. You don't have to like snake killing, but you certainly don't have to climb all over someone who has done so.



I agree with you totally on this. In a fear situation you are forced to make quick decisions and sometimes they are not the best. But as humans we are all build with the fight or flight responce to danger. And being a parent you also have the built in responce to protect your young at all costs. Scary story, I am glad your tort and family are safe though.


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## mainey34 (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

Listen, I love snakes and all other reptiles. It was just human reaction. No big deal.


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## Masin (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



SulcataSquirt said:


> I just sick of all these people going peta on someone who protected their tort from a snake. Weither she killed an endanged snaked or not, the snaked invaded her space and it was killed. Its the same thing here in st.louis with most people, you invade their personal space, you will most likely get shot. Too many people worry about animals being killed. its the circle of life. The snake would have been eaten eventually either way. If i coyote came and killed your dog would you pet in on the head and say awwww good coyote? hell no, you would shoot that damn thing, and be waiting for more to come to kill them too.



I hate words like PETA being thrown around simply to create offense. 
I dunno that anyone posting is affiliated with PETA or were even close to seeming like they were, they're herp lovers giving their knee jerk reactions to a scenario. 
I have no idea how I would react in a situation that hasn't come about in my life and can't tell others how to or not react in their lives, but I can choose not to be offensive.


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## Jacqui (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



SulcataSquirt said:


> Too many people worry about animals being killed. its the circle of life. The snake would have been eaten eventually either way.



Just trying to get your point straight here... so since as you say, the snake will end up dying any how, no big deal if this human does it today then something else kills it tomorrow, correct? Well taking this same line of thinking, that would also mean this tortoise will die some how also, so what's the big deal if the snake did it now and gets it over with??? See this entire circle of life thing, just doesn't make sense to me. Why should either one of them have to die today, if things could be done so they could live for another day? Who knows, perhaps that snake if it had lived might have eaten some bug who may bite the child and kill it next week or some mouse who has the Hantavirus which may infect the entire family in a month. I hope neither thing happens, but cause and effect theory here. .... just sayin' and wonderin'

I do understand why the OP's husband reacted so violently, but I am sorry he did so.


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## JoeB (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

Dead snake... she did fine get over it and start a new thread in the all topics to debate. Dead snake really LOL...


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## ICUSleeping (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

Thanks for every bodys opinions. I am not hurt or bothered by what anybody said. Everyone would of done something different. I happen to live on a lake with lots of wild life ranging from raccoons, owls, once in a blue moon a gaiter. I'v come across Lots of monster snakes and spiders living here and at least 1 of those snakes and 1 of those spiders were poisonous. So I dont take any chances. I have lots of brush and places for snakes and i would rather them not be around at all. I love my animals like i love my child. Here in florida ANYTHING can happen even a snake eating a tort believe it or not.


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## wellington (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



KTyne said:


> SulcataSquirt said:
> 
> 
> > I think you did fine killing the snake, not everything can live forever, expecially a snake in your yard. lol Now another wild animal will have food without having to fight for it. Do all you people freak out on someone else when they kill a spider? Im sure you do. Or how many people have set mouse traps and kill a mouse? SHAME ON YOU. and last i knew venom , is being posioned.
> ...



If you catch a mouse or rat and let him go outside, he will come right back. I kill every spider in my house and that gets by me in the yard. It is a little ridiculous how most of you are reacting. I like snakes just like the next guy. However, if I lived in an area that I had to worry about them and the kind they were, I would kill first and ask questions later if any of my animals were in danger. They have their place and it's not in our yards or homes. Granted, if she wasn't already nerves about a snake getting her tort, she may have reacted differently. But they had to do what they did. Give them a brake, and make sure you don't ever kill anything, or never have. Which I doubt. Easy to cast stones when your not in their shoes.


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## KTyne (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



> If you catch a mouse or rat and let him go outside, he will come right back. I kill every spider in my house and that gets by me in the yard. It is a little ridiculous how most of you are reacting. I like snakes just like the next guy. However, if I lived in an area that I had to worry about them and the kind they were, I would kill first and ask questions later if any of my animals were in danger. They have their place and it's not in our yards or homes. Granted, if she wasn't already nerves about a snake getting her tort, she may have reacted differently. But they had to do what they did. Give them a brake, and make sure you don't ever kill anything, or never have. Which I doubt. Easy to cast stones when your not in their shoes.



I don't kill animals on purpose, ever. 

And this isn't in someone's house, this is outside which is completely different. Putting your pet into a Snake's territory isn't the Snake's fault.


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## LiveTilWeLaugh (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_indigo_snake
I'm aware this was not an indigo snake, but when it was brought up I did some looking. (I'm aware Wikipedia is not always reliable) but the artilce states "Eastern indigo snakes eat turtles, lizards, frogs, toads, a variety of small birds and mammals, and eggs". I would have killed the snake too.


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## wellington (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



KTyne said:


> > If you catch a mouse or rat and let him go outside, he will come right back. I kill every spider in my house and that gets by me in the yard. It is a little ridiculous how most of you are reacting. I like snakes just like the next guy. However, if I lived in an area that I had to worry about them and the kind they were, I would kill first and ask questions later if any of my animals were in danger. They have their place and it's not in our yards or homes. Granted, if she wasn't already nerves about a snake getting her tort, she may have reacted differently. But they had to do what they did. Give them a brake, and make sure you don't ever kill anything, or never have. Which I doubt. Easy to cast stones when your not in their shoes.
> 
> 
> I don't kill animals on purpose, ever.
> ...



I don't think,they purposely killed it either. They were protecting their pets, which is what they should do. Don't carry it so far. And I would believe Jesus if he said he never killed anything on purpose. I hope you have never killed a fly, mosquito, bee, etc. you know some people really loves insects to and would be offended if you killed those. They did what they had to do. Until your in their shoes, you really don't know what you would do either. 
We all would like to think we would handle it better, but you never know. 
Oh, ya, it was their yard/territory, not the snakes. The snakes have any empty lot, yard, wood, forest, ect.


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## Jacqui (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

I just hope they are now fixing their enclosure, so this never happens again... for those who think the snake got the short end of the deal, you can take it to mean fixing so another snake does not die needlessly. For those of you on the side of the snake deserved it, you can take it to mean fixing the enclosure so the tortoise does not have to worry about the possibility of being eaten by a snake again.


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## jessrich87 (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

I would do whatever it takes to protect myself, my family or my pets. Countless times has my fiancÃ© grabbed the gun when he heard strange noises in the night, the dog yelping outside or seen coyotes in our yard. Luckily, we have not had to kill anything yet... I just don't get all the offense taken by the ops action I guess. I love animals... All animals. I am sad when squirrels get hit by cars. However, I also assume the responsibility to protect the things that are most important to me. In this case, it is not the snake. And if killing the snake was the best option to stop immediate harm to my tort or me, then there would be no hesitation. Of course, if the snake was on the other side of the yard minding it's business, I'd prob just try to have a professional relocate it or scare it away myself.


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## shellysmom (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



taytay3391 said:


> KTyne said:
> 
> 
> > I don't kill Spiders, I release them. If I were to ever set a trap for a mouse or rat it would be a live trap and then the animal would be released outside.
> ...



That's actually a good point, there. No one who eats animals should be giving ICU a hard time. I'm vegan, but I didn't give her a hard time because it was an understandable reason for a freak-out.


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## richellesworld (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

You have to trust your intuition. I support you and you seem like you area great mom! Keep on being cautious. I am happy all is well with you and your family. Sending happy thoughts and positive energy your way!


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## SulcataSquirt (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



Jacqui said:


> SulcataSquirt said:
> 
> 
> > Too many people worry about animals being killed. its the circle of life. The snake would have been eaten eventually either way.
> ...



it is the circle of life, we are just adjusting it, THINK about how HARD we try to PROTECT our TORTS. Just if i were a snake person and not a tort person i would feel that way about the snake eating the tort. The snake has to eat.. but in a tort lovers case we go above and beyond to keep our torts safe until that are big enough to protect them selves, or for some torts that stay little they have to be protected forever, otherwise this happends and a snake gets killed. It could have been a crow, or coyote, or bear. Alot of people see a snake as harmless other not so much. In your case think of it as a coyote destroying your tort collection. would you try to collar it up and relocate it?


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## sibi (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

People react to situations differently. Often, there isn't time to think...you just react. But, if you react because you are trying to save your baby, who can really fault you for that? Sometimes, the way people react to others and say mean things w/o considering the feelings, fears, and emotions that someone else is experiencing says more about the criticizer than it does about the other person. We are here to LEARN about our animals, but also about ourselves. Let's not forget that. 



ICUSleeping said:


> The other night i had a dream that a snake got to my lil zeus outside. I told my husband about it and he just brushed me off saying he'll be ok. Well last night i let zeus spend the night for the first time outside he has a strong net like covering the top of his habitat. Worried that something might happen to him i ask my husband is it a good idea he told me he'll be fine nothing can get to him. So today in this beautiful florida weather its raining and sunny i figured zeus is having a blast. I go to check on him and i hear something to my right i look and its a SNAKE!!! I screamed for my husband he went and got the shovel. He ask's me Wheres Zeus? ...I say in his burrow... wheres the snake? ....Going under the net RIGHT BEHIND zeus's BURROW!!! I jump under the net stick my hand in his burrow and grab him. My husband screaming WHAT ARE YOU DOING YOUR CRAZY! You could of got bit. I didnt care i wasnt going to let the snake get zeus ... My husband beheads the snake and it wasnt poisonous But now i know its time to change his enclousre. No more wandering jew. No more net. Lesson learned


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## Tom (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

Does anyone else see the difference between killing a detrimental or potentially dangerous pest species, like a mouse, rat, gopher or coyote, as different from killing a non-pest species that is actually beneficial?

In my own part of the world, I can understand why people kill the rattlesnakes. Not saying I agree with it, but I understand it. What I DON'T understand is killing non-venemous, harmless, beneficial snakes, like the kings and the gopher snakes. There are people around me who kill any snake they see and when I explain to them that this practice will actually lead to more rodents AND more rattlesnakes, they usually are dumbfounded. They stand there looking at me. When I ask if they know why its called a "KING" snake (because they eat other snakes, like rattlers), they have no idea. King snakes and gopher snakes EAT the rattlesnakes. Why would someone kill their ally? Why would you kill a harmless animal that is protecting you from a very dangerous one?

Killing pest or potentially dangerous animals is fine. Wantonly killing everything because you are ignorant (This word is not an insult. It simply means someone does not know something. For example when it comes to brain surgery, I am ignorant.), is NOT okay. I cannot imagine living somewhere and not taking a few minutes to do a google search to find out what types of potentially dangerous, or venomous animals are near you. I do this every time I go out of town. Its not difficult and there is really no excuse for it anymore with the internet, which everyone on this forum clearly understands how to use.

I am certainly no vegan. And I kill animals nearly every day. Mice, rats, ground squirrels, gophers, black widows, etc. None of these animals are beneficial (one could argue, I know...) and we have an extreme over-abundance of all of them. All of them are detrimental to me in some way. But... I hate road runners because they eat the fence swifts that eat the flies that I hate so much. But I don't kill them. I just shoo them away. Same thing with the ravens. They could potentially eat my baby tortoises. I don't shoot them out of the sky. I put wire frames over my babies and shoo the ravens away.

May I suggest the OP and her husband, and anyone else who does not know what lives around them, take a few minutes to learn which species are helping you and which ones could harm you? And then build your enclosure to keep out the potentially dangerous animals that occur in YOUR area. Half inch hardware cloth will keep snakes out, and just about anything else too, short of a bear.

And Yvonne, this will be very simple for you. If it has a rattle, go ahead and kill it if you must. If it doesn't have a rattle, it EATS the ones that DO have a rattle, so don't kill them for goodness sakes. Please.

There is really no excuse for living in this kind of ignorance. And there is certainly no excuse for killing harmless, beneficial local wildlife because of ignorance.


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## fbsmith3 (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

Tom, I agree with you 100%. I am a reptile person, I love all reptiles and go out of my way to rescue snakes from people with phobias. My wife has a terrible phobia of snakes, but being Buddhist will call me to move snakes from harm.


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## LuckysGirl007 (Sep 15, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



Tom said:


> Does anyone else see the difference between killing a detrimental or potentially dangerous pest species, like a mouse, rat, gopher or coyote, as different from killing a non-pest species that is actually beneficial?
> 
> In my own part of the world, I can understand why people kill the rattlesnakes. Not saying I agree with it, but I understand it. What I DON'T understand is killing non-venemous, harmless, beneficial snakes, like the kings and the gopher snakes. There are people around me who kill any snake they see and when I explain to them that this practice will actually lead to more rodents AND more rattlesnakes, they usually are dumbfounded. They stand there looking at me. When I ask if they know why its called a "KING" snake (because they eat other snakes, like rattlers), they have no idea. King snakes and gopher snakes EAT the rattlesnakes. Why would someone kill their ally? Why would you kill a harmless animal that is protecting you from a very dangerous one?
> 
> ...



Actually, when driving around during monsoon season out here there are a LOT of King snakes that come out on the roads and get squished. If my Uncle saw one laying in the road near his house he would stop and catch it. He relocated them back to his property! We liked having them around!


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## ascott (Sep 16, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

I am glad that your tort is safe. Snakes and torts have lived together for a long time....here in the desert rattlesnakes and CDTs co habitat with one another and the snake relies on the CDT for sharing the space after all of the hard work has been done by the tort.....

Please do not think I am bitching at you  I would plead with you to do as previously suggested and research a bit of your geographic location as to what common critters are present...kinda cool when you can spot a critter and know what it is and if it is fatal or not...then you can truly begin to marvel at nature and enjoy seeing it feeling a bit more secure in knowing which should be viewed from a safe distance and the ones you can creep up a bit closer to and view...


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## Jacqui (Sep 16, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



SulcataSquirt said:


> In your case think of it as a coyote destroying your tort collection. would you try to collar it up and relocate it?



How about instead of giving an answer of "I think I would..." We look at what I have done in the past two different times with my poultry flock. First time it was a mother fox getting them. I left the fox alone and tried to improve my chicken keeping methods. (I had bought a house which was the year before housing the fox den under one of the outbuildings) I felt *I* was the intruder. Next was a few years latter when coons started going after the chickens. I worked on making the coons know they were not welcomed and worked on the coop, again. I even had a neighbor boy who was a trapper/hunter offer to do the honors of killing these animals for me.

Now I do have after-the-fact pictures of the day this summer I went to my pond and saw a snake in it. My turtles went after the snake, but I pulled it out (actually out of one turtle's mouth even  ). Just a week or two ago, I directed a snake away from the tortoise enclosure (Homes hingeback one) that it was attempting to get into. So I guess my track record does speak for itself? To make it perfectly clear, the coyote would not be harmed by me. I try not to make innocent people and animals pay for MY mistakes. 

Now I am not a big snake lover. I do respect them and their place in the environment. I have in the past kept a ball python (he died fairly recently). You know why I kept him? To try to work through my fear of snakes. It worked part way, I had no problem with my own snake and will readily hold calm snakes folks hand me. Now wild snakes still make me very nervous and uneasy. We do have two dangerous types of snakes in my local area. I did the smart thing and learned how to recognize the ones with potential harm to my family (human and other wise).


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## Madkins007 (Sep 16, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



Tom said:


> And Yvonne, this will be very simple for you. If it has a rattle, go ahead and kill it if you must. If it doesn't have a rattle, it EATS the ones that DO have a rattle, so don't kill them for goodness sakes. Please.



??? Gophers, ring-necks, gartersnakes, and some of the others in her region don't eat other snakes. Certainly, they are good and valuable snakes, but I am wondering if I am missing something here.

I understand the reference to the really cool king snakes, that get their name from their habit of eating other snakes- including rattlers- but they don't make a special diet of them (lots of eggs, small rodents, etc. as well) and even share burrows with rattlers. 

To answer the actual question the post is asking- no. Why deprive our torts the chance at a live snack?


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## wellington (Sep 16, 2012)

Does anyone else see the difference between killing a detrimental or potentially dangerous pest species, like a mouse, rat, gopher or coyote, as different from killing a non-pest species that is actually beneficial?

I really hate to disagree with you Tom. But all animals have a place in this world, all are actually beneficial and have a point. They are all here for a reason. I don't think killing any of them is the right thing to do. However, I don't think what the poster did was wrong in their situation. For some to come down on them like they were serial killers is a little ridiculous. No one is perfect in this world. However some were acting as if they were and these people were the worst thing that lived all because they were protecting their tort and that's what they thought. I would hate to have had them go,figure out first if it was dangerous or not and then find out they took to long and their tort, dog, child was killed or bit. I personally would never want an animal killed for any reason, but that perfect world doesn't exist. Some of us think quicker on our feet then others. Some of us put more time into learning the dangerous snake species in our area, most probably don't. Thankfully we all can be different that way. But makes no one better then the other. Now they know, hopefully they won't have to panic next time and leave the snake alone. If not, really their business, they have to live there not any of us.


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## EKLC (Sep 16, 2012)

If your enclosure is not locked down enough to keep out something large enough to eat your tort, I would not keep him outside at night. I'd be much more concerned about raccoons, rats, dogs, humans.

I regard those threats just as something you have to accept and account for when designing your enclosure. If you kill one, there is another one to take its place. Except the humans, I always trap and kill those when they threaten my torts.


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## Tom (Sep 16, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



Madkins007 said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > And Yvonne, this will be very simple for you. If it has a rattle, go ahead and kill it if you must. If it doesn't have a rattle, it EATS the ones that DO have a rattle, so don't kill them for goodness sakes. Please.
> ...





Mark we have a whole host of snakes out here, but we hardly ever see most of them. I've seen two ring necks, around a dozen red racers, and a few garters. In contrast, I have seen literally 100's of rattlesnakes and gopher snakes, and dozens of kingsnakes. Sooooo for the purposes of someone out here being able to ID the venomous ones, it's pretty easy.




wellington said:


> Does anyone else see the difference between killing a detrimental or potentially dangerous pest species, like a mouse, rat, gopher or coyote, as different from killing a non-pest species that is actually beneficial?
> 
> I really hate to disagree with you Tom. But all animals have a place in this world, all are actually beneficial and have a point. They are all here for a reason. I don't think killing any of them is the right thing to do. However, I don't think what the poster did was wrong in their situation. For some to come down on them like they were serial killers is a little ridiculous. No one is perfect in this world. However some were acting as if they were and these people were the worst thing that lived all because they were protecting their tort and that's what they thought. I would hate to have had them go,figure out first if it was dangerous or not and then find out they took to long and their tort, dog, child was killed or bit. I personally would never want an animal killed for any reason, but that perfect world doesn't exist. Some of us think quicker on our feet then others. Some of us put more time into learning the dangerous snake species in our area, most probably don't. Thankfully we all can be different that way. But makes no one better then the other. Now they know, hopefully they won't have to panic next time and leave the snake alone. If not, really their business, they have to live there not any of us.



I used to think this way when I lived in the city too. Country living is different. It's a war out there. A war with the wildlife. They counter every move you make and find ways around your defenses. Sometimes drastic measures are necessary. Still, one can't just go killing any animal on sight. You gotta know your enemy and take steps, to minimize collateral damage.


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## conservation (Sep 16, 2012)

In my opinion, killing a snake for being in your tortoise enclosure is no different than the ranchers who kill tortoises because they believe the tortoises are competing with their herd animals. Both are done out of ignorance or lack of knowledge. 

It is important to learn about the wild animals that live in your backyard. Spend a few minutes and familiarize yourself with the snakes in your area. What if you killed an endangered or rare species? What if it was harmless? 

If anybody has questions about identifying snakes in their area, PM me your Zipcode and I will make you a snake ID guide.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Sep 17, 2012)

*[split] Close encounter with a snake*

I agree with any suggestions that any tortoise keeper should take the time to make themselves familiar with the local wildlife that may occasionally find itself in the enclosure. This includes wild snakes, venomous and nonvenomous.


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## Tom (Sep 17, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



emysemys said:


> I think Jacqui did the right thing in trying to move the debate portion of the thread over to the debatable topics forum. With so many members coming down on the "dont't kill snakes" side of the coin, it was starting to feel a bit like we were all picking on the OP. This is how we lose our members.



I disagree. I didn't see anyone being rude or insulting. The OP started a topic. The forum members responded with their opinions. That's what a forum is for.

My point, and I think others agree, is not necessarily "never kill a snake", but instead, we are urging others to not go killing anything when you don't even know what it is. Also, the tortoise had already been removed from the situation and was no longer in any danger.

No one was picking on the OP. We were simply sharing our views on the matter. Jeez. You guys sure aren't this trigger happy when it feels like someone is picking on me... Aren't you afraid I'm gonna leave?

To ICU, we aren't picking on you. We are just having a conversation. You are welcome here and wanted. Killing and the death of animals can be an emotionally charged subject. We're just sharing our thoughts with you on the matter.


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## jpmcclure (Sep 17, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*

Tom cannot go!! EVER!! Hey wait, are we debating again?


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## StudentoftheReptile (Sep 17, 2012)

Its threads like this one that make me ashamed to share my hobby with others.


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## Tom (Sep 17, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a tortoi*



StudentoftheReptile said:


> Its threads like this one that make me ashamed to share my hobby with others.



How so?


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## StudentoftheReptile (Sep 17, 2012)

Its been discussed before. I expect this behavior from lay people on the street. But it saddens me on a deeper level when fellow herp enthusiasts (in this case, tortoise keepers), people who I suppose I've always felt were "on the same side" when it comes to reptiles, and such....when such people resort to the same ignorance, hysterical behavior and prejudice...[sigh].

Don't really want to get into it again. I pretty much summed up my thoughts in the first post I made in this thread.


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## Tom (Sep 17, 2012)

I understand. I'll leave it alone then.


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## Neal (Sep 17, 2012)

I didn't read through to find out what type of snake it was, but if it wasn't poisonous, my view is that it should have been at least relocated. I would accept killing a poisonous snake (as long as it wasn't a threatened species), only because I have little kids that play in my yard and I wouldn't want to relocate a poisonous snake only to have it find its way back to my house. Sorry to say that here, but my families safety comes first.

I'm the same way with scorpions. Since they are a threat to little kids and to tortoises, I usually kill off any that I find for the most part. If I didn't have the kids or the tortoises, it would be different. The type of scorpions we get around here are by no means threatened, so I'm not worried about killing off too many.


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## CactusVinnie (Sep 17, 2012)

While I somehow understand the ignorance behind the snake killing as a fast, unthinked reaction, I would never understand those really "intelligent" comments from others... very "ferocious" and/or "protective".
"KILL everything in sight, if enters your backyard!! They have to die anyway, some day!" WOW!!! It give me goosebumps... are you people real? 

2 mistakes done: 
- killing a snake, no matter what species, venomous or not, when you had lots of variants... and all the beings would have been safe if you took the time to think how to deal with; I am not talking about much time, since a snake, IF decided to eat a small tortoise, he cannot do that as fast as lightning, as fast as a bird catches an insect; a snake inspects, checks, etc. first, when such a weird, slow or not-moving food item;
- your bravery, love etc. could have spelled "emergency room" for you if you really entered in the bite-range of a venomous one... but I suppose that if that close to the tortoise, and reaching the dangerous range for you, you would not had the imprudence to grab Zeus. I really doubt that people being that affraid of snakes to kill them on sight have the guts to get that close to them...

So... useless killing... and the second goosebumpy thing is that you just said "no more wandering jew", "we will change enclosure" etc., but no bit of regret for that killing... that was an innocent animal. exactly like your tortoise.

I teach my daughters to differentiate snakes, never approach a suspect one. If kids can get it, it should be easy for an adult too.

Even when I was bitten I did not killed the viper... maybe if in another country, where snake ID is crucial after a bite, I would do it to save my skin, but not for less. 

People today have a kind of brutality that I cannot understand... it's not about being a bad person, it's something different... anyway, it's wrong.


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## taytay3391 (Sep 17, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a torto*

Are you all vegans? Because you should be if you're so intense about this killing. Jeebus.


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## TheTortoiseWhisperer (Sep 17, 2012)

I wont point out word for word the "ignorant" statements that were made on BOTH sides of the debate, instead I'll quote what I believe was the most mature, understanding statement that even included great advise ever since ICUSleeping posted her experience with the snake--->

shellysmom 
Member


Posts: 213
Joined: Feb 2011
RE: Close encounter with a snake
Wow, you were definitely brave to grab a snake without having any idea if it was venomous or not. Now that you know such a snake is not a threat, if you ever encounter another one like that, you can let it go. 
~ Erika <----that to me was one of the best post here because we should all remember that none of us are born knowing. Not all of us were raised by animal lovers. Some of us like me, are just now entering the amazing world of reptiles, and before this forum as ignorant as it may be to some of you, I have always seen a snake as a potential danger and until now in my adult life is when I've met people who have encouraged me to reconsider my views but it certainly was not here and now because I have actually been so surprised to see how SOME people who obviously love and seem to promote education to protect these creatures can go into full attack mode, even when it's been clear from the very beginning that the now famous snake wasn't killed with the intent of malice but instead a reaction to protect.


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## Tom (Sep 17, 2012)

That's the thing... She didn't grab the snake. She grabbed her tortoise. No one and no animal was in danger any longer. It was after the fact the the husband decided to go get a shovel and come back and kill the snake. Killing the snake wasn't a knee-jerk reaction because the tortoise was in harms way.

And seriously, no one is attacking anyone. We are simply trying to point out that it could have and should have been handled differently. The hope is to get people to reconsider their actions, not make them feel like a villain.

Also, many of us grew up in the city and not in the company of animal lovers. I was surrounded by concrete and asphalt my entire childhood. My mother was not an animal lover and said no to just about everything I wanted to do with animals. The point is that it only takes a few minutes of google searching to figure out what animals might be found near you. I said before in another thread that my job requires me to do this regularly. Just recently I was filming in a Louisiana swamp. About 20 minutes of Internet time gave me a good idea of what to expect out there. More time would have yielded more info. I was only there for a couple of weeks. If I was going to live there, I would take the time to study up a bit.

And TayTay, because you don't condone the senseless killing of wildlife does not have anything to do with making someone a vegan. I am a carnitarian. I eat some sort of meat nearly every day. I also kill local wildlife all the time, when it makes SENSE to do so. For example when yet another gopher tunnels in and tries to make a meal of my mulberry tree's roots. I've killed several dozen for this offense, but not before they managed to kill one of my 12 year old mature trees, and dozens of other plants and bushes. Does any of this sound "vegan" to you?

My hope is that the OP, and anyone else who senselessly kills wild animals out of fear or ignorance, will reconsider those actions, and take a moment to educate themselves. If there is a good reason to kill it, and you know what you are killing and why, then by all means, slay away. If she were to have come here and said that a copperhead or a rattle snake was in her enclosure and potentially a threat to her animals or children, I don't think most of us would have raised an eyebrow. But because they don't even know what it was, and no one was in any danger at the time of the killing, it is upsetting to those who have an appreciation for the natural world. In other words, this discussion is not because someone killed a snake. That happens all the time and it's understandable in some instances. That someone killed an unknown species for no good reason is what is in question here.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Sep 18, 2012)

Right on, Tom.

Our local herp society just participated in a safety event this past weekend to help educate folks about identifying snake species in our area, as well as correct protocol for turtle rescues.

Just for anyone not in the know, southwest Alabama has more herp biodiversity than any other place in the U.S. State-wide we have about 40+ snake species, and only 6 are venomous. Two are virtually non-existant, which leaves 4 that one may possibly encounter.

99% of the time, anyone calls me or sends me a pic on my phone, or shares a Facebook photo of a snake they just found, it is a common harmless species (garter snake, brown snake, ratsnake, racer). In 20 yrs of working with reptiles, I can count on one hand with fingers left over how many venomous snakes friends and family have found (that I was told about). Granted, people who live in more rural areas are more likely to come across a rattler or copperhead than someone living downtown. And likewise, people hanging out in and around waterways are more likely to see cottonmouths (arguably our most common venomous snake in the south).

Now I understand this is Alabama. The biodiversity is going to be different in other parts of the country, which is why I always advocate people to take the time to get familiar with the snake species native to their area. But nevertheless, I wager that most of the time they encounter a snake, its going to be a harmless species and there's no need to kill some tiny little animal that eats toads or slugs.

And yes, the only snake species in North America that is known to include chelonians in its diet is the eastern indigo snake. Remains of hatchling gopher tortoises have been found in the stool of wild specimens (I imagine mostly shell fragments). Not too surprising since that snake often dens in gopher tortoise burrows. I don't know if the Texas indigo is known to share this feeding behavior.

Nearly all of the other larger snake species in the U.S. are rodent-eaters. This includes the adult ratsnakes, cornsnakes, _Pituophis_ genus (pine, gopher, bullsnakes), and most rattlesnakes. In essence, any snake (with the exception of the aforementioned indigo, which is a rare and endangered Southeastern species) large enough to try to eat a small tortoise, wouldn't even think about it.
----

I do recall reading somewhere that occasionally large cottonmouths may take hatchling aquatic turtles, but don't have the documentation, so I dunno about that one.


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## taytay3391 (Sep 18, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a torto*

I just don't see how someone who eats meat can be so disgusted with her for killing a snake. And hunting? That's about the same thing. Senseless killing. People do it every day. Please check on the conditions of the meat you eat then. Because they keep those animals in TERRIBLE WRETCHED conditions. It's ridiculous. So that's also terrible and disgusting.


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## Neal (Sep 18, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a torto*



taytay3391 said:


> I just don't see how someone who eats meat can be so disgusted with her for killing a snake. And hunting? That's about the same thing. Senseless killing. People do it every day. Please check on the conditions of the meat you eat then. Because they keep those animals in TERRIBLE WRETCHED conditions. It's ridiculous. So that's also terrible and disgusting.



Hunting isn't senseless killing, it has a purposes (to obtain meat to eat being one of them).

The killing of the snake was senseless killing, or at least that is what is being debated here.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Sep 18, 2012)

I find it very ironic that hunting is (obviously, by the statements made in this thread!) just as misunderstood as snakes are. It always seems to me that people who "have all the facts" about hunting and make such outlandish claims have likely never hunted themselves, and probably never picked up a gun in their life, much less actually researched the subject at length and/or spent time with REAL hunters.



Neal said:


> Hunting isn't senseless killing, it has a purpose (to obtain meat to eat).
> 
> The killing of the snake was senseless killing, or at least that is what is being debated here.



Ditto.

True hunting has more than one purpose, not just using said quarry for meat, skin, or whatever. Regulation hunting helps preserve populations of game species (so everyone isn't out killing everything in sight anywhere they please), and going hand-in-hand, helps eradicate invasive or over-populated species in some areas, such as feral pigs or coyote. REAL hunters take the sport seriously and do not abuse their privilege to participate in the activity. As Neal said, it is not senseless.

Killing any animal simply out of ignorance (and prejudice in most cases), is senseless. (literally without sense).

Like Tom said earlier, this is not necessarily meant to be an insult or a personal attack. Just giving a broader and well-rounded perspective on the matter and offering tips on how to handle the scenario should it ever arise again.


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## Madkins007 (Sep 18, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake*



Tom said:


> Mark we have a whole host of snakes out here, but we hardly ever see most of them. I've seen two ring necks, around a dozen red racers, and a few garters. In contrast, I have seen literally 100's of rattlesnakes and gopher snakes, and dozens of kingsnakes. Sooooo for the purposes of someone out here being able to ID the venomous ones, it's pretty easy.



Ah! Around here, the garters, ring-necks, and gophers are the far more abundant. We have two local kings, and count ourselves very blessed to find them on a field trip. We have three species of venomous near here, and even in the 'hot' spots they are really hard to find most of the time.

We did run into one poor guy who had Timber rattlers living under his porch and in most of his outbuildings. He also, predictably, had a huge rodent problem. He was one of the few people I have ever met who had a legitimate reason to kill snakes rather indiscriminately.


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## SDDTMama (Sep 19, 2012)

Okay, label me ignorant, but what, pray tell, is a 'wandering jew'? Is it referencing the plant that came up when I 'Googled' it? 

**o_0**


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## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 19, 2012)

StudentoftheReptile said:


> *Right on, Tom.*


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## ascott (Sep 19, 2012)

Wow all.....I know that as I read here I see there are clearly two different opinions....and that is great....I personally agree that knowledge is key---and lack of knowledge in itself is also a choice---the fact that someone lives in the city vs the country should not be an excuse for ignorance---I mean actually I believe folks in the country get the raw end of the deal when being accused of ignorance D)...when in reality, it is entirely all of our responsibilities to know a little about our world and more over our immediate surroundings...

I mean we all, I would guess, know a little something about a killer whale but likely those of us that have a little knowledge don't have them wandering in our neighborhoods....or we know a little about elephants but again highly unlikely that they are wandering about in most of our neighborhoods...so my point being, it is our responsibility to know a little about some stuff  and I personally know that the more I gain in knowledge, about many things, makes me a more rounded person---also, if I am somewhere and I run across some critter that I have learned a bit about then that encounter is that much more awesome---I feel like part of the moment vs uncomfortable or perhaps nervous which can take away from the moment---also, the more we can learn is that much more we can share with others....share all...share


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## StudentoftheReptile (Sep 20, 2012)

Well, here's another example for people to think about.

My wife hates spiders. I'm not a big fan myself, but for the most part, don't mind them as long as they don't come in my house. Since we have two kids under the age of 2, this is been more of a concern, since we do occasionally see spiders in the home, and even a bite from a so-called "harmless" spider to an infant or toddler can be a big deal. And just a few months ago, I did find a black widow in my wife's car. So yeah, it is a concern!

What do we do? We have spent HOURS looking at pictures and websites of different spider species in our area: how big do they get, what the females look like, what the males look like, what habitats they frequent, what the bites look like (so we can differentiate from ant and skeeter bites), etc etc etc. We have become amateur spider experts in a sense (lol).

If most people spent half the time researching about their local snake species as we have about spiders, they'd be in a good shape, and I'd wager a lot less snakes would meet a premature death via shovel.


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## TortoiseBoy1999 (Sep 20, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a torto*

As much as I love snakes..... I would have killed it rather risking my tortoise's life. It was a think fast moment and she made a quick decision. I love snakes and always will and will always want one. But I love my tort's more. Sorry that's just the way it is for me. (I can't have a snake because my mom is afraid of them to death )


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## Tom (Sep 20, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a torto*



TortoiseBoy1999 said:


> As much as I love snakes..... I would have killed it rather risking my tortoise's life. It was a think fast moment and she made a quick decision. I love snakes and always will and will always want one. But I love my tort's more. Sorry that's just the way it is for me. (I can't have a snake because my mom is afraid of them to death )



It would be a little more understandable if the tortoise was in jeopardy, but it wasn't. The tortoise had already been removed from the situation and THEN the shovel was fetched and the snake killed. The tortoises life was not at risk when the snake was killed.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Sep 20, 2012)

Ignorance is a very contagious pathogen, but easily curable. For some reason, the majority of those who suffer from this terrible disease deliberately refuse the cure.


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## Yellow Turtle (Sep 20, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a torto*

As all points and good opinions seem to have been stated, why not just close this thread. I think this starts to turn into unnecessary debates... Basically i can see most people have same good view, but repeatedly restating and debating it till 8 pages...

Cheers


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## StudentoftheReptile (Sep 20, 2012)

Agreed.


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## DanieltheAnvil (Oct 4, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake...*

I live in florida and we have 6 types of venomous snakes. only 4 of which pose any real danger to a tortoise even the size of a yearling. so I would encourage people of this great state to learn about those 4 snakes which are the Eastern diamondback Rattler, Canebrake Rattler, Cottonmouth/water moccasin, and the copperhead. 

Another concern is the outbreak of burmese and African Rock pythons in the everglades. 

anyway my whole point is that most snakes to not pose any threat to your tortoise and will probably not stay with one very long. so I'm an advocate of leaving snake be.


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## Brewster320 (Oct 5, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a torto*

I was a snake person long before I got my tortoise. I currently own 10 snakes including ball pythons, a carpet python, corn snakes, a rat snake, a boa, and a corn x king snake cross, so it does pain me to here when some just kills a snake. 

Like has been stated earlier the eastern indigo is the only snake in the US that will eat a tortoise, and who would for sure not mistake an adult indigo for any other snake. Also if it was an indigo, who those who say they would have still killed it, it is a federal crime to harass, collect, or kill a wild indigo snake. They are an endangered species due to over collection and senseless killing. In fact if you want to own one it cost hundreds of dollars to just get the permits to bring them across state lines, never mind the other paperwork and the cost of the snake itself. And even though this snake will eat a small tortoise (they cannot open their mouth that wide so are fairly limited in what they can eat even though they are the largest native snake in the US) they will also eat even the largest adult diamond back rattle snakes that even king snakes cannot tackle so they will be a natural snake repellent. Yes like has been stated earlier about the king snake they do not specialize in eating other snakes and will eat other things, however, other snakes will actively avoid them out of fear. For example, lions don't usually eat people but would you risk walking into a pride of lions?

Also it is a know fact that the gopher tortoise does in fact have a symbiotic relationship with the eastern diamond back. The snake gets to live in the tortoises burrow. In return, if a predator comes after the residents of the burrow whether it be the tortoise or the snake, the rattler becomes the defender and deters the predator that might have tried to make a meal of the tortoise.

Another couple facts I'd like to point out, most people who get sent to the ER for snake bites were actually harassing or trying to kill the snake themselves, not the snake going after them.

Also people who point out "would you kill a mouse, rat, spider, roach, ect.", 
1. The house mouse and the Norway rat are in fact invasive species, the only place they actually belong is in Central Asia. They spread throughout the world with help from people and have causes many species to become endangered and even extinct. There for I do not feel bad about these animals being destroyed.
2. These pest animals live and breed INSIDE your house. They may have originally came from outside but they switched from the ecosystem of your back yard to inside your house. Whatever you do to them inside your house has no affect on the outdoors ecosystem. There for you many do as you please to them. If somehow you manage to get an infestation of snakes living and breeding inside your house then by all means do as you'd please( although I'd recommend doing something about your rodent problem you most likely have.)

Also I am certainly not vegan, I breed rodent for my names as well. That is the circle of life. This snake was taken out of it as it was killed and then most likely thrown away in the trash to rot in some landfill. Yes that snake may have been just killed the next day by a hawk or a king snake or something but in that case it's death would have meant life for another animal and it would not have been wasted. That is the difference between nature and a senseless killing.

Another thing is many snakes are now critically endangered due to killings such as this. I live in Massachusetts and many people Are surprised to head that we do have native venomous snakes, the timber rattle snake and the copperhead. Both these snakes are extremely endangered in my state due to one main reason, senseless killing, in fact people would find their hibernation sites and blow them up with dynamite in the middle of winter killing dozens, even hundreds of snakes.

Lastly, people act like it is an impossible thing as to tell a VENOMOUS snake from a harmless variety. If you look up your local snakes you will soon see that your local pit vipers (cottonmouths, copper heads, and rattlers) stick out like sore thumbs from the other species of snakes in the US once you know what you are looking for. The Coral snake is even easier given its bright colors, just don't mistake it for a harmless mimic species such as the scarlet king snake. "Red touch black, friend of jack. Red touch yellow, kill a fellow".

And now I do not blame you for feeling the way you did and killing the snake. Few years ago I had a hawk kill one of my chickens and I came outside to the bird sitting on top of its lifeless body and at that moment I wanted to break its neck but of course were would that have gotten me. If I did kill that hawk I could have gone to jail if caught, also another hawk would have just moved into the territory and taken the dead one's place. The best weapon against predators honestly is knowledge. Knowing how to identify, avoid, and prevent the problem in the first place will work far better than a gun or a shovel.


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## ottosmom18 (Dec 10, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a torto*



mattgrizzlybear said:


> THAT is called love! That you would jump infront of a snake not knowing if it was posionous or not. Again, THAT is called LOVE!



Totally agree. Would do the same.




Ruchonnet said:


> I think that if you would have just found it wandering your yard you shouldn't have killed it. But if you were scared for your tortoises safety I definitely understand where you came from. I think everyone is being a little too mean and judgmental...



Glad somebody had the guts to say it...


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## evlinLoutries (Dec 11, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a torto*



emysemys said:


> I really doubt a snake would eat a tortoise. I think that they see heat, and mammals give off more heat than reptiles.



I do agreed with this post..

Snake won't eat torts I guess, cause snake only eat hot blood like mammals, not a cold blood..


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## StudentoftheReptile (Dec 11, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a torto*



evlinLoutries said:


> emysemys said:
> 
> 
> > I really doubt a snake would eat a tortoise. I think that they see heat, and mammals give off more heat than reptiles.
> ...



As discussed earlier, this is actually very inaccurate. Most snakes are fairly opportunistic and will include any of the following in their natural diet: insects, arachnids, worms, fish, frogs, toads, salamanders, lizards, other snakes, centipedes, termites, and more. In fact, only a handful of North American species exclusively eat warm-blooded prey.

Again, the only two snake species in North America that occasionally include tortoises and turtles in their diet are:
- indigo snakes (rare, and an endangered species throughout their range)
- cottonmouths (i.e. moccasins)

Ignorance and prejudice solves nothing. If people would just take a little time to educate themselves about their local wildlife....[sigh]


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## SailingMystic (Dec 11, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a torto*

I had the same situation and grabbed long tongs out of the kitchen and a plastic pitcher with lid and held my snake 7 inches from the head and quickly pulled it up and out. I did this three times (three snakes). I re-homed them in a warm rocky area that also has a water source. No need to kill them. I learned it's helpful to grab a beer or a glass of wine first


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## fluffypanda17 (Dec 11, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a torto*

No such thing as a poisonous snake.



(venomous)


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## furandscales (Dec 11, 2012)

*RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a torto*

Haha poor snake! He didn't stand a chance if he tries bothering an animal lovers pet


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