# Habitat drawing



## kirbybirby (Nov 14, 2011)

The only thing I have so far is the large black container. Obviously it'll be bigger than the one in the picture and everything will be more spaced out. But I just wanted to do a rough drawing to see if I'm even close on the setup. 

Let me know what you think and excuse my drawing skills


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## Morty the Torty (Nov 14, 2011)

kirbybirby said:


> The only thing I have so far is the large black container. Obviously it'll be bigger than the one in the picture and everything will be more spaced out. But I just wanted to do a rough drawing to see if I'm even close on the setup.
> 
> Let me know what you think and excuse my drawing skills



I'm intrigued by your "hay under the basking light", will this help to raise the temp under the light? Meaning will it feel warmer for them than the coco coir?


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## kirbybirby (Nov 14, 2011)

Morty the Torty said:


> kirbybirby said:
> 
> 
> > The only thing I have so far is the large black container. Obviously it'll be bigger than the one in the picture and everything will be more spaced out. But I just wanted to do a rough drawing to see if I'm even close on the setup.
> ...



Well, I use hay for my bunny, who is outside. And, especially in the winter, it keeps him super warm. So why not use it for my RT? I also don't know what else I could put under there  I thought of putting a hard surface under the basking spot but I don't really know what to use so we'll see how the hay works.


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## AnthonyC (Nov 14, 2011)

Looks good, but I think you're going to catch some flack over the coil light. I have no experience with them whatsoever, but I know a lot of people feel that they are harmful to a tortoises eyes. Good luck w/the build!


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## kirbybirby (Nov 14, 2011)

AnthonyC said:


> Looks good, but I think you're going to catch some flack over the coil light. I have no experience with them whatsoever, but I know a lot of people feel that they are harmful to a tortoises eyes. Good luck w/the build!



Yeah, I read that somewhere. I wonder why that is? what else can I use? I can't go all into making a hood for a customized turtle table just to put a fluorescent tube thing in there. Would this one be okay? http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002AQDJK/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20


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## Tom (Nov 14, 2011)

I would not use the sand, the hay, or the coil bulb.

I like a piece or slate or something similar under my basking lights. Makes it easier to check temps and it helps wear down the nails too.

Powersuns are great.

What species and what age are we talking about? Where are you?


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## kirbybirby (Nov 14, 2011)

Tom said:


> I would not use the sand, the hay, or the coil bulb.
> 
> I like a piece or slate or something similar under my basking lights. Makes it easier to check temps and it helps wear down the nails too.
> 
> ...



Okay cool I'll plan on getting that new bulb... hopefully I'll be able to take my other one back... if not then I'm kind of screwed. And I'll try the slate then. Why not sand? 

I'm getting a Russian Tortoise and whatever age they are at Petsmart. (not a hatchling). I am in Pennsylvania.


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## Tom (Nov 14, 2011)

The hay will mold with the damp substrate.
The sand is an impaction risk and can sometimes irritate the skin or eyes. Talk to any vet who has seen a lot of tortoises and ask them about sand impaction.

The UV bulb is a subject I have been re-evaluating lately. I've never had, or personally seen, any problems with the MVBs, but I have seen lots of problems with the coil bulbs. The thing is, I question how much we really need the artificial "UV" bulbs at all. Kristina is one of our mods. She lives in MI (frozen winters) and uses NO artificial UV bulbs at all. Her torts of several species, spend most of the summer outside getting natural sunshine and then spend the winter indoors under regular incandescent bulbs for heat. She has ZERO problems with this method. So when I consider people like me in sunny So Cal or some of our AZ, FL or TX members who get year round sun, do we really NEED artificial UV bulbs, and their associated costs and potential dangers, at all? When considering some of the Testudo species that are normally hibernated every year, they seem even less necessary. (BTW, I would not hibernate yours the first year, but if all goes well, you might consider it for next year.) Just throwing that out there... sharing my thoughts on the matter...


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## kirbybirby (Nov 14, 2011)

Tom said:


> The hay will mold with the damp substrate.
> The sand is an impaction risk and can sometimes irritate the skin or eyes. Talk to any vet who has seen a lot of tortoises and ask them about sand impaction.
> 
> The UV bulb is a subject I have been re-evaluating lately. I've never had, or personally seen, any problems with the MVBs, but I have seen lots of problems with the coil bulbs. The thing is, I question how much we really need the artificial "UV" bulbs at all. Kristina is one of our mods. She lives in MI (frozen winters) and uses NO artificial UV bulbs at all. Her torts of several species, spend most of the summer outside getting natural sunshine and then spend the winter indoors under regular incandescent bulbs for heat. She has ZERO problems with this method. So when I consider people like me in sunny So Cal or some of our AZ, FL or TX members who get year round sun, do we really NEED artificial UV bulbs, and their associated costs and potential dangers, at all? When considering some of the Testudo species that are normally hibernated every year, they seem even less necessary. (BTW, I would not hibernate yours the first year, but if all goes well, you might consider it for next year.) Just throwing that out there... sharing my thoughts on the matter...



Well, from my understanding, the UV lights are needed for calcium and all that. And I know there are risks with the lights but I live in Pennsylvania and it is becoming winter now. You're telling me I do not need any type of UV light? I think I'm just gonna get that powersun one anyways. 

And what did you mean by "I would not hibernate yours the first year"? Do I literally have to hibernate him? Won't he do that himself? Sorry, but I'm new to the tortoise thing and I need to do my research ahead of time.


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## laramie (Nov 14, 2011)

AnthonyC said:


> Looks good, but I think you're going to catch some flack over the coil light. I have no experience with them whatsoever, but I know a lot of people feel that they are harmful to a tortoises eyes. Good luck w/the build!



I agree with AnthonyC, looks good !


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## Tom (Nov 14, 2011)

kirbybirby said:


> Well, from my understanding, the UV lights are needed for calcium and all that. And I know there are risks with the lights but I live in Pennsylvania and it is becoming winter now. You're telling me I do not need any type of UV light? I think I'm just gonna get that powersun one anyways.
> 
> And what did you mean by "I would not hibernate yours the first year"? Do I literally have to hibernate him? Won't he do that himself? Sorry, but I'm new to the tortoise thing and I need to do my research ahead of time.



The conventional wisdom states that tortoises housed indoors need a source of UV light of the correct wavelength in order to convert vitamin D2 into D3. D3 is necessary for the body to be able to use calcium. Of course outdoors, the sun provides these UV rays. I am re-evaluating this position based on Kristina's and other experiences. Do we really need artificial UV? Some think we do. I don't know... 

Having said all of that, a MVB will do no harm and could be very beneficial. At this time, I still recommend them, but I'm keeping an open mind and I'm ready and willing to learn more about the subject.

Hibernating a captive tortoise is not automatic. Certain precautions must be taken. It is more of a process than an event. Even a very large outdoor pen cannot simulate the wild close enough to require no effort on the part of the keeper. Here is a thread discussing it:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Hibernation-for-Testudo#axzz1diQejAu3


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## Laura (Nov 14, 2011)

if you have light 14 hours a day and its warm enough.. he probably wont hibernate.. but it temps drop and the lights are out or not on long enough to simulate summer time... he will get sleepy, stop eating and go night night... 
Russians love to explore and escape. make sure the walls are taller then he is long and remember they will streatch and stand on tip toe to get over a wall. the climb very well!


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## kirbybirby (Nov 14, 2011)

Laura said:


> if you have light 14 hours a day and its warm enough.. he probably wont hibernate.. but it temps drop and the lights are out or not on long enough to simulate summer time... he will get sleepy, stop eating and go night night...
> Russians love to explore and escape. make sure the walls are taller then he is long and remember they will streatch and stand on tip toe to get over a wall. the climb very well!



What happens if they don't hibernate?


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## lynnedit (Nov 14, 2011)

They don't need to hibernate at all to thrive. Some like to, it works for them, but it is certainly not recommended within the first year until you know your tort is healthy. Would not give that topic much more thought now.
You can use Timothy or Orchard hay in the cool, dry side of the enclosure, under/in a hide. Change it weekly. Or you can use Aspen, which won't rot. More for burrowing, not basking.
With your set up, I would indeed use the PowerSun 100w MVB for UV and heat. Coil lights are not very popular, some concerns at least with the old ones, with eye damage. Get a light fixture with a ceramic base like this: http://www.zoomed.com/db/products/E...Qcm9kdWN0Q2F0ZWdvcnkiO3M6ODoiTGlnaHRpbmciO30=
and hang so it faces straight down. They sell reptile ZooMed lamp stands that work well. Put that on the 'warm'/basking side. You can use cypress mulch under it, or a piece of slate or tile (you can get tile at places like Home Depot, individually). With this bulb, you may only need one light/heat source if your house does not fall below 60-65 at night.
Move the water dish near the heat source so it warms it up too.
Make sure you get a good thermometer like; 
http://www.carolinapetsupply.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=322. It has a wire probe you can move around. YOu can usually find these in Home Depot too.
Also a good site for getting seeds for Russian torts to sprout your own.


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## kirbybirby (Nov 14, 2011)

lynnedit said:


> They don't need to hibernate at all to thrive. Some like to, it works for them, but it is certainly not recommended within the first year until you know your tort is healthy. Would not give that topic much more thought now.
> You can use Timothy or Orchard hay in the cool, dry side of the enclosure, under/in a hide. Change it weekly. Or you can use Aspen, which won't rot. More for burrowing, not basking.
> With your set up, I would indeed use the PowerSun 100w MVB for UV and heat. Coil lights are not very popular, some concerns at least with the old ones, with eye damage. Get a light fixture with a ceramic base like this: http://www.zoomed.com/db/products/E...Qcm9kdWN0Q2F0ZWdvcnkiO3M6ODoiTGlnaHRpbmciO30=
> and hang so it faces straight down. They sell reptile ZooMed lamp stands that work well. Put that on the 'warm'/basking side. You can use cypress mulch under it, or a piece of slate or tile (you can get tile at places like Home Depot, individually). With this bulb, you may only need one light/heat source if your house does not fall below 60-65 at night.
> ...




Good to know, about the hibernation. I REALLY want one of these guys, they're adorable and seem so much nicer than aquatic ones (well, my Red Sliders for example). 

And, I conveniently found a large light fixture at a goodwill this evening ($5). Hopefully it'll do the job. I attached pictures of it. Will that do the job? I can make my own stand thing so it sits up straight. I can't see spending $20 on something that's so easy to make.


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## zesty_17 (Nov 14, 2011)

kirbybirby said:


> Morty the Torty said:
> 
> 
> > kirbybirby said:
> ...





keep in mind that the body heat your tortoise gets will be coming from the heat source, not the hay. Because tort's dont generate body heat like you and i (and the bunny) hay used as a blanket or insulation usually doesnt do much good. If you are using it as a soft bedding or midnight snack then it is different. I have been fighting this one in zoos for years... blankets for torts dont work... even ones made out of hay.


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## Tom (Nov 14, 2011)

That fixture is no good. You need one with a ceramic base to handle the heat generated by these reptile bulbs for 12-14 hours a day. Those plastic type ones always fail eventually and could actually start a fire. I have found them smoldering many times in the past, not to mention they will fry your expensive bulb. Ceramic based fixtures can be found at any hardware store for around $12.


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## kirbybirby (Nov 14, 2011)

Tom said:


> That fixture is no good. You need one with a ceramic base to handle the heat generated by these reptile bulbs for 12-14 hours a day. Those plastic type ones always fail eventually and could actually start a fire. I have found them smoldering many times in the past, not to mention they will fry your expensive bulb. Ceramic based fixtures can be found at any hardware store for around $12.



Damn..... I REALLY didn't wanna spend $12 on a light fixture. It;s not plastic by the way. It's seems like aluminum. Oh well, I'll just save the handy little holder that's attached to it. 

What about this one. It seems to be ceramic. (pictures attached) Only bad thing is, the on/off switch sticks all the time.


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## zesty_17 (Nov 14, 2011)

Tom said:


> That fixture is no good. You need one with a ceramic base to handle the heat generated by these reptile bulbs for 12-14 hours a day. Those plastic type ones always fail eventually and could actually start a fire. I have found them smoldering many times in the past, not to mention they will fry your expensive bulb. Ceramic based fixtures can be found at any hardware store for around $12.



i 2nd the ceramic heaters, they also last a long time.


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## Tom (Nov 14, 2011)

We are not talking about the dome. We are talking about the actual part that you screw the bulb into. The part that the cord sticks out of. That narrow dome is no good for MVBs. It will cook them prematurely. And finally, those clamps are an accident waiting to happen. They always fail, unless you find a way to permanently attach them. It is also important for your fixture to point straight down, not at an angle. You'll also need the ability to adjust the fixture up or down to get your basking temps right.


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## lynnedit (Nov 14, 2011)

kirbybirby said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > That fixture is no good. You need one with a ceramic base to handle the heat generated by these reptile bulbs for 12-14 hours a day. Those plastic type ones always fail eventually and could actually start a fire. I have found them smoldering many times in the past, not to mention they will fry your expensive bulb. Ceramic based fixtures can be found at any hardware store for around $12.
> ...



Actually, you want the base of the fixture (part that you screw bulb into) to be ceramic, like the link I posted earlier on this thread. The lamp part can be aluminum, or other kind of metal. The MVB's will melt anything but ceramic.


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## kirbybirby (Nov 14, 2011)

:S Well, looks like I'll be putting those lights on CL along with a lot of my other aquatic turtle stuff... but thank you for the information! I really do appreciate it. But don't worry, if I have to nail the light thing to a piece of wood to make it stay there, I will.


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## lynnedit (Nov 14, 2011)

Do you have the original packaging? Often you can return it, especially if you buy a new light.
Kudos for getting things right for your tort.


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## kirbybirby (Nov 14, 2011)

lynnedit said:


> Do you have the original packaging? Often you can return it, especially if you buy a new light.
> Kudos for getting things right for your tort.



Nah, I bought all my stuff (except the light bulbs which I have already returned) at flea markets and yard sales. I got a nice half log thing, 2 water dishes and some other stuff for like $3 at a flea market haha. 

But yeah, totally. I have to do my research this time before I get my RT. I already had a bad experience with my Red Sliders because I didn't do research (I thought they were land turtles before I got them, man did I learn my lesson).


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## FADE2BLACK_1973 (Nov 14, 2011)

kirbybirby said:


> lynnedit said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is a local flea market that sells the spotlight fixture that Tom mentioned (with the white ceramic rather then the black plastic) that holds upto 250 watt light bulbs for around $7.00 brand new. And you can use any size wattage light bulbs upto 250 watts. Those are the best ones. Dont ever have to worry about overloading it aslong as it not over 250 watts. 

About the use of UVB or no UVB bulbs. I have used them off and on for over 20 years for all kinds of different species of reptiles indoors. And I have only noticed a difference in certain species of reptiles. I always used a good calcium with D3 with most of the feedings and its a must if not using a UVB lamp. But I can tell you there is a big difference that I noticed when using them. The reptiles with UVB and UVA exposure seems to be more active, has or keeps a better appetite, and just seems to help keep them in good health. Dont really have to be alot of uvb or uva but little seems to make a difference, imo. Now many have done really good without it but still there was that difference.

Btw, research is the best way to know what you need and have to do when it comes down to taking care of something. I do it all the time on just about anything and everything. Helps gain knowledge . Oh and one other thing, the webbed feet on the rear legs of those red-eared sliders did not give them away that they where water turtles? If you pick something up and not sure if its land dwelling or aquatic, just look at the feet


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## kirbybirby (Nov 16, 2011)

Well, I'm just gonna have to buy the $12 light at petsmart or whatever and the powersun bulb. 

I've got my container (will take a picture in a few days) and I just need to know what you guys think would work best as a substrate. Could I use just organic soil like in the picture with no sand and then do the mulch thing with the slate under the basking spot?


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## lynnedit (Nov 16, 2011)

Organic topsoil works well. Make it a bit deeper in on spot for interest. Then you can use the slate under the basking light. If you want a couple of different substrates, then yes, you can use Cypress mulch around the basking light and water dish. Food dish should be near but not baked by the basking light, so they don't over heat when eating.
Look for dome light fixtures with a ceramic base also at Home Depot, or feed stores, as they will be less expensive than pet stores.


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## kirbybirby (Nov 16, 2011)

lynnedit said:


> Organic topsoil works well. Make it a bit deeper in on spot for interest. Then you can use the slate under the basking light. If you want a couple of different substrates, then yes, you can use Cypress mulch around the basking light and water dish. Food dish should be near but not baked by the basking light, so they don't over heat when eating.
> Look for dome light fixtures with a ceramic base also at Home Depot, or feed stores, as they will be less expensive than pet stores.




Okay cool, I'll just try the soil for now. Would it be okay for me to put a garbage bag or some sort of plastic thing under everything, that way when I go to empty it all out it'll be way easier. 

And really? I've never seen those lamps at Home Depot.


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## lynnedit (Nov 16, 2011)

You do want to make sure your enclosure is waterproofed with a rubber liner like a pond liner, or several coats of a water based sealer? Torts like to dig, so a garbage bag might not last.
Some people use shallower rubbermaid storage bins lined up (say, 6" deep) and then change each one out as needed. In this case, you could have to make your tort table fit the combined dimensions of the containers. 
Otherwise, since you only need to fully change the substrate yearly, it isn't too much of an issue. You just spot clean, and can change out parts of the substrate as needed.
This is the kind of light fixture, not sure if all Home Depots or Lowes carry them, but many hardware stores will
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053


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## kirbybirby (Nov 16, 2011)

lynnedit said:


> You do want to make sure your enclosure is waterproofed with a rubber liner like a pond liner, or several coats of a water based sealer? Torts like to dig, so a garbage bag might not last.
> Some people use shallower rubbermaid storage bins lined up (say, 6" deep) and then change each one out as needed. In this case, you could have to make your tort table fit the combined dimensions of the containers.
> Otherwise, since you only need to fully change the substrate yearly, it isn't too much of an issue. You just spot clean, and can change out parts of the substrate as needed.
> This is the kind of light fixture, not sure if all Home Depots or Lowes carry them, but many hardware stores will
> http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053



Well, I've got a pretty long rubber container so I'm not really worried about him digging through it or whatever. And I'll have another whole stand thing under it anyways. So I'm not too worried about that. 

And oh.. it's $12 I'll just get the one at Petsmart then.


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## lynnedit (Nov 16, 2011)

Sounds good. Haven't checked prices there recently. Just make sure the fixture you get accommodates the 100w bulb (some of the smaller ones only go up to 60w).
Be sure to post pics!


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## kirbybirby (Nov 16, 2011)

lynnedit said:


> Sounds good. Haven't checked prices there recently. Just make sure the fixture you get accommodates the 100w bulb (some of the smaller ones only go up to 60w).
> Be sure to post pics!



Okay ill see what i can come up with. And ill definitely post pictures. Hopefully this weekend.


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## kirbybirby (Nov 18, 2011)

Heres the container. Its 21 inches by 36 inches. Im thinking of putting all soil in it for now maybe some cypress mulch also if it isn't expensive. I also have another container that's the exact same thing and if i can get creative enough ill make a double decker  a two story type thing. 

I forgot to mention that ill be making the sides higher with some wood maybe and then ill put a black liner of some sort inside the container so the little guy can't see through it.


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## lynnedit (Nov 18, 2011)

Hey, that looks fine for now. Before you get too tangled up with adding wood edges, etc., why don't you take the lid and cut out most of the middle so you can snap it back on and you have an EDGE to prevent him climbing out.
I just saw the first Christmas Tree Storage Box (plastic) of the season: GREAT tort enclosure, 48" long and nice and deep. $49 or so now, but watch them carefully and they will go on sale at or right after XMAS and you can pick one up cheap.


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## kirbybirby (Nov 18, 2011)

lynnedit said:


> Hey, that looks fine for now. Before you get too tangled up with adding wood edges, etc., why don't you take the lid and cut out most of the middle so you can snap it back on and you have an EDGE to prevent him climbing out.
> I just saw the first Christmas Tree Storage Box (plastic) of the season: GREAT tort enclosure, 48" long and nice and deep. $49 or so now, but watch them carefully and they will go on sale at or right after XMAS and you can pick on up cheap.



Oh wow that's a great idea  good thing I have the lid. And yeah I'll definitely keep an eye on that one.


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## kirbybirby (Nov 18, 2011)

I just thought of something else, I have this light right now: http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2752666 

its a 50 watt one. however, it's only uvA not uvB. will that work? or do I absolutely need a uvb one? I can get it, I just need to order it from amazon or whatever. (that powersun one). just trying to save some money here and make do with what I have.


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## lynnedit (Nov 18, 2011)

If you can keep your tort outside part of the year (6 months?), you can get by with even just a basking light. However, if your torts will be inside most of the year, you probably have to spring for the Powersun MVB (UVB/UVA/Heat) bulb.
Now if you want to save up for it and delay getting it for a month, that would be OK. As long as the tort has light and warmth.
I wish they were less expensive...


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## kirbybirby (Nov 18, 2011)

lynnedit said:


> If you can keep your tort outside part of the year (6 months?), you can get by with even just a basking light. However, if your torts will be inside most of the year, you probably have to spring for the Powersun MVB (UVB/UVA/Heat) bulb.
> Now if you want to save up for it and delay getting it for a month, that would be OK. As long as the tort has light and warmth.
> I wish they were less expensive...



Well it's winter here now so I can't really take him outside, unless it suddenly goes up to 70ish again like it did the other day... But the money isn't really my problem, well it kind of is. It's more of, the wait for the bulb to be shipped. I've got the money. Will he be fine for like a week or two with just that uva/basking bulb? And do you know where I can find that MVB bulb cheaper than $40?


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## lynnedit (Nov 18, 2011)

That's about the normal price, or a bit better, as far as I know. He will be fine until you receive it in the mail.
Sounds like your tort can go outside part of the year too, which they seem to love!


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## kirbybirby (Nov 18, 2011)

lynnedit said:


> That's about the normal price, or a bit better, as far as I know. He will be fine until you receive it in the mail.
> Sounds like your tort can go outside part of the year too, which they seem to love!



Okay cool! And oh yeah ill have him out there every day in the summer! I live on two acres so there's some room for him


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## lynnedit (Nov 18, 2011)

Lucky tort!


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## redbeef (Nov 18, 2011)

does anyone think a ceramic heat emitter might be a good idea for keeping nighttime temps from getting too low? I guess it depends on how well the house/room is heated/insulated...

just a thought: saw all this talk of UV and incandescent heat and not much about keeping night temps up to keep the tort out of hibernation mode...


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## kirbybirby (Nov 19, 2011)

redbeef said:


> does anyone think a ceramic heat emitter might be a good idea for keeping nighttime temps from getting too low? I guess it depends on how well the house/room is heated/insulated...
> 
> just a thought: saw all this talk of UV and incandescent heat and not much about keeping night temps up to keep the tort out of hibernation mode...



How cold can it get at night? In the summer it won't be a problem. But right now its winter and even though my house is heated, my room gets quite cold sometimes. Maybe its because i leave my door open all the time... Its usually about 61-62 in my room. Even during the day. I know, that's cold.


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## Tom (Nov 19, 2011)

kirbybirby said:


> redbeef said:
> 
> 
> > does anyone think a ceramic heat emitter might be a good idea for keeping nighttime temps from getting too low? I guess it depends on how well the house/room is heated/insulated...
> ...



Depends on species and age. For hatchlings of any species 78-80 at night is as low as I like to go. For an adult russian 65 at night is fine as long as they can warm up during the day. Many people keep them outside with night temps in the 50's or even 40's. Just don't forget to assess the difference between what they can "tolerate" vs. what is "optimal" for YOUR situation.


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## kirbybirby (Nov 19, 2011)

I'm assuming it's gonna be about 4inches. it's a russian tortoise. the hatchlings are like $200


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## lynnedit (Nov 19, 2011)

That's right. It does depend if you are getting a hatchling vs a juvenile or adult, as far as night temps. You should not need night heat unless it is a hatchling.
I think a plastic container (hopefully the Xmas Tree Box soon!) might work well for you, being more air tight.
Have your lights on a timer, and watch your tort's schedule. If he is rustling around at 6a, have the lights come on at 5:30a to get his basking area warmed up. Keep it on 12-14 hours. 
I also have a second regular light bulb in a smaller fixture to add extra light and a bit of heat during the day as well.(you might not need that in your smaller container, but can monitor the temps when you get the larger one).
You could use the lid with only part of the top cut out (leave maybe 1/4 or 1/3) to help retain the heat over the side he sleeps in. Placing tiles/slate here and there, including under the basking area, helps retain heat too.
Basically, monitor your night heat with a good digital thermometer on a probe or a PE-1 infared thermometer. if >60, your tort should be fine if he can get to his nice toasty basking area when we wakes up.


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## kirbybirby (Nov 19, 2011)

lynnedit said:


> That's right. It does depend if you are getting a hatchling vs a juvenile or adult, as far as night temps. You should not need night heat unless it is a hatchling.
> I think a plastic container (hopefully the Xmas Tree Box soon!) might work well for you, being more air tight.
> Have your lights on a timer, and watch your tort's schedule. If he is rustling around at 6a, have the lights come on at 5:30a to get his basking area warmed up. Keep it on 12-14 hours.
> I also have a second regular light bulb in a smaller fixture to add extra light and a bit of heat during the day as well.(you might not need that in your smaller container, but can monitor the temps when you get the larger one).
> ...



Yeah I've got a timer so that'll be fine. Im getting him in a few hours so ill post pictures later tonight of the new setup.


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## lynnedit (Nov 19, 2011)

Looking forward to it!


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## kirbybirby (Nov 19, 2011)

I attached pictures of his setup. I used coconut stuff that I found at Petsmart and then I put some cypress mulch on top... But.. it seems to be getting all over him, even when he isn't wet. is that normal? Also give me feedback on the setup. I wanna know if everything is laid out okay.

Also, he seems to just be hiding under his log since I brought him home tonight... I assume he's just tired and worn out. And I tried to feed him something but he didn't eat it (lettuce). He seems heavy so I heard that that's a good sign. There aren't any white spots on his shell but I did notice a small chip on his shell when I got home. Nothing major at all. It's not deep or even big, it's just like a flake came off. And his eyes aren't hazy or anything.


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## lynnedit (Nov 20, 2011)

The coir does tend to stick to them, that's normal. But they don't care. You can sprinkle water in the substrate, a fair amount, to keep it moist, especially in the underlayers of the substrate.
He looks good, nice face, and if he is heavy, you're right, that is a good sign.
Russians often warm up sooner than other species, but they can still be shy for even 2-3 weeks. 
Big adjustment for him. Soak him daily for a week then 1-2x per week.
There is some thought that screening can block the UVB. You might consider cutting a hole in the screen big enough for the light fixture so you can adjust it up and down to get the basking area temp right (~95). No closer than 12" to the tort's shell. I do like how you have it facing straight down. Remember, if the basking area isn't warm enough, they may burrow down and become less active (that applies after he is used to his new home, though). If it won't warm up despite this change, add a basking tile or piece of slate.
Over time you can add more 'furniture': large flat stones for him to climb over, or a log. If you run one of these down the middle, you can build up the substrate on the cooler side for more burrowing options. I found some inexpensive 'hanging' plants at a Craft store, in smallish pots, that I attached to the side of the enclosure that hang down in one area, making it more interesting. 
You are off to a good start!


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## kirbybirby (Nov 20, 2011)

lynnedit said:


> The coir does tend to stick to them, that's normal. But they don't care. You can sprinkle water in the substrate, a fair amount, to keep it moist, especially in the underlayers of the substrate.
> He looks good, nice face, and if he is heavy, you're right, that is a good sign.
> Russians often warm up sooner than other species, but they can still be shy for even 2-3 weeks.
> Big adjustment for him. Soak him daily for a week then 1-2x per week.
> ...



Yeah I already removed the metal screen, the light wasn't even close enough. And it's also a 50 watt bulb so it has to be like 6 inches away because it's such a low wattage one (in order for it to get about 95.) My 100 some watt one hasn't come in the mail yet. I also put a piece of slate under the basking spot, and he's been on it all morning, sleeping I might add. Oh and I got a ceramic light fixture, as recommended. 

And okay I'll soak him. I assume the water needs to be pretty warm right? Also, he hasn't eaten anything yet and he hasn't ventured off into his water bowl... But, I only got him just last night. I wish it was summer, this would be a lot more easier, and more fun for him :\


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## kirbybirby (Nov 20, 2011)

Update

I took him outside today because it was in the high 60's, low 70's. and he seemed to really enjoy it. He ate some grass and weeds. However he hasn't even touched his food inside his habitat... He also seems to be sleeping, a lot. Is that normal? If it is, that's fine  I just wanna make sure he isn't sick or something. 

Another important question I have: The lady at Petsmart said they change out their bedding, completely, every week. If I have to buy like $7 of coconut stuff every week then this is gonna be really expensive... and I was told by a lot of people that you only need to completely change out the bedding once a year... I'm confused.... again :\


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## lynnedit (Nov 20, 2011)

In general, take the advice Pet stores give (except perhaps the rare Reptile store) with a very large grain of salt. They probably change the substrate because they cram so many torts in, and there may be some kind of health rule. However, most Pet stores give inaccurate advice.
Once a year might be enough, or every 6 months, IF you spot clean what you can see. Another option is to change out, say, 1/4 of the substrate every 4 months or so. No need to do more than that, but base it on how the substrate looks (and smells) overall. Make sure to add some water to the substrate as well.
I expect my substrate to last over the winter, but I spot clean just about daily, and change out the water every 2-3 days or as needed. 
Yes, soaking is about the most important thing you can do right now. Water warm to touch, (warmer than cool) and refresh it if it cools while he is in it. Level up to just above the bottom of his shell. Definitely do it daily for a week, then 2-3x per week.
I added a jar of baby food (carrot or sweet potato), they actually absorb this through their skin, and it helps restore vitamin A more naturally.
See how your tort does with the new light. Bulb no closer than 12" to his shell, farther if too hot. Adequate lighting, warmth (basking) and soaking are the cornerstones to getting a tort healthy.
Since he is likely wild caught, you probably should consider having a fecal test done by a vet. This usually involves an office visit fee, and you do want to check our Vet list for a Reptile vet. However, since he is alone, I think you see how he does with the Powersun bulb too, to decide how urgently you need to schedule this visit. If he does not perk up with it, I think the vet is indicated sooner.
Great idea to take him outside, even for an hour. 1 hour of REAL sun is equivalent to hours inside under an MVB.
Don't worry about him eating yet. That can take awhile. Soaking may help. Being outside will definitely help.



Can you change out your temporary bulb to a 100w house bulb to help with warmth, so it does not have to be so close? (make sure your fixture can accommodate that wattage).


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## kirbybirby (Nov 20, 2011)

lynnedit said:


> In general, take the advice Pet stores give (except perhaps the rare Reptile store) with a very large grain of salt. They probably change the substrate because they cram so many torts in, and there may be some kind of health rule. However, most Pet stores give inaccurate advice.
> Once a year might be enough, or every 6 months, IF you spot clean what you can see. Another option is to change out, say, 1/4 of the substrate every 4 months or so. No need to do more than that, but base it on how the substrate looks (and smells) overall. Make sure to add some water to the substrate as well.
> I expect my substrate to last over the winter, but I spot clean just about daily, and change out the water every 2-3 days or as needed.
> Yes, soaking is about the most important thing you can do right now. Water warm to touch, (warmer than cool) and refresh it if it cools while he is in it. Level up to just above the bottom of his shell. Definitely do it daily for a week, then 2-3x per week.
> ...





Thanks for the advice. How much does a vet checkup cost?


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## lynnedit (Nov 20, 2011)

Probably too much in larger cities. I would look on this forum at the vet list and also http://russiantortoise.net/index.htm to find a Reptile Vet.
Call them to get a price ahead of time.
Fecal testing can be $20-30 give or take. The office visit is often more, but some are kind of a rip off. You may be able to negotiate ahead of time a bit.
The good news is that with proper care, most torts don't have to go the the vet a lot, they certainly don't need regular vaccines like dogs and horses!
I think you have some time to observe him since he is so new. See what happens with the new light, and can you just get a stronger house bulb for your fixture: 75 or 100w?


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## kirbybirby (Nov 20, 2011)

lynnedit said:


> Probably too much in larger cities. I would look on this forum at the vet list and also http://russiantortoise.net/index.htm to find a Reptile Vet.
> Call them to get a price ahead of time.
> Fecal testing can be $20-30 give or take. The office visit is often more, but some are kind of a rip off. You may be able to negotiate ahead of time a bit.
> The good news is that with proper care, most torts don't have to go the the vet a lot, they certainly don't need regular vaccines like dogs and horses!
> I think you have some time to observe him since he is so new. See what happens with the new light, and can you just get a stronger house bulb for your fixture: 75 or 100w?



Well ill just see how it goes within a few weeks or so. And I've got the 50watt uva/heat lamp in there for now so im just gonna leave that in there until i get the other one.. I literally have no other lights haha.


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## lynnedit (Nov 20, 2011)

Won't be long before you get your new bulb. You can even use a desk lamp for extra heat temporarily if needed, might not be.


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## kirbybirby (Nov 20, 2011)

lynnedit said:


> Won't be long before you get your new bulb. You can even use a desk lamp for extra heat temporarily if needed, might not be.



Yeah, the one he has right now should be fine for a while.


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## lynnedit (Nov 20, 2011)

sounds good!


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## kirbybirby (Nov 21, 2011)

Also, I know someone suggested a heat emitter for at night. I was thinking about getting one but only if it's necessary. How cold can it get at night? Typically my room is around 61-63 at night, and during the day. I have no idea why, the rest of the house is super warm and I'm even on the second floor. And no I can't move the turtle habitat anywhere else, my parents wouldn't allow it :\ (Yeah, I'm not that old haha.) But, I'm also concerned about all this wattage. I don't pay for the electric bill so I have to keep my wattage low. Is there a heat emitter that's lower in wattage but still works? Because the MVB daytime bulb I'm getting is like 100 and some watts I think. Plus, Kirby seems to move to many different spots at night. I usually have to show him where his log is and then he'll go under it. I think I need a bigger one too. 

Another thing, he keeps digging. All day. I'm guessing that's normal though.  And he still hasn't even looked at his water bowl. it's definitely big enough for him to get into. I put him in there once but he never went back in it.


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## lynnedit (Nov 21, 2011)

Many RT's won't go in their water unless it is by accident. They often spend their day climbing and digging. That is their thing.
If your room stays above 60, as he is an older tort, you won't need night heat, as long as he has a nice 95F basking area to go to in the morning to warm up. (when you get your new bulb).
just keep an eye on the temps.


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## kirbybirby (Nov 21, 2011)

lynnedit said:


> Many RT's won't go in their water unless it is by accident. They often spend their day climbing and digging. That is their thing.
> If your room stays above 60, as he is an older tort, you won't need night heat, as long as he has a nice 95F basking area to go to in the morning to warm up. (when you get your new bulb).
> just keep an eye on the temps.





Okay good. haha. I put more coconut stuff in there today so it's taller than he is (that way he can actually dig in it) and he's been like a mole today. Any suggestions for keeping the dirt out of the water and food? haha. 

But yeah his basking spot is nice and warm and the slate rock under it is also nice and warm.


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## lynnedit (Nov 21, 2011)

kirbybirby said:


> lynnedit said:
> 
> 
> > Many RT's won't go in their water unless it is by accident. They often spend their day climbing and digging. That is their thing.
> ...



you can try to place some flat rocks around his water dish to protect it. big enough so he can't eat them!
he is probably grateful to finally have somewhere to burrow...


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## kirbybirby (Nov 21, 2011)

lynnedit said:


> you can try to place some flat rocks around his water dish to protect it. big enough so he can't eat them!
> he is probably grateful to finally have somewhere to burrow...



Okay, thanks! And oh im sure. The stuff at the pet store was barely an inch high (my stuff is about 5 inches now probably higher) and there was also another tortoise in there. Same breed but i can imagine how cramped that must have been...


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## lynnedit (Nov 21, 2011)

yep, his life has taken a turn for the better


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## kirbybirby (Nov 21, 2011)

lynnedit said:


> yep, his life has taken a turn for the better



Yeah  I finally got him to eat today. I took a video of it too. Here's my channel: www.youtube.com/chainchompify it's the second video.


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## lynnedit (Nov 21, 2011)

You can consider getting a mix like Spring mix or Herbal salad mix, or a similar product. Sounds like you still have some weeds in your yard too. Good idea to continue to soak him daily for a few more days.
He looks good!


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## kirbybirby (Nov 21, 2011)

lynnedit said:


> You can consider getting a mix like Spring mix or Herbal salad mix, or a similar product. Sounds like you still have some weeds in your yard too. Good idea to continue to soak him daily for a few more days.
> He looks good!



Yeah, this was just lettuce I had left over from my salad the other day. (the bottom part of the head or whatever) I'll get a better mix soon. 

And thanks!


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