# INDOOR Underground Housing



## Tom (Jan 14, 2012)

This has been an ever evolving idea of mine. My most recent inspiration came from ripper7777777's new double decker enclosure thread. I also thought a lot about this a couple of years ago when I read about something similar on a savannah monitor lizard website. The dude was way ahead of his time and his way of housing his monitors was totally against the mainstream and absolutely brilliant. Basically his idea was to have a standard monitor set up built on top of a large stock tank or custom base that was at least 2' deep and full of soil that they could dig and burrow in. Just like some of our tortoise species, savannah monitors live largely underground and feel much more comfortable there.

As usual, I am primarily talking about sulcatas here, but the info might be true or helpful for other species as well. Here's where this is all coming from: Most of us advocate some form of "natural" keeping. Or worded another way; we want to attempt to duplicate what happens in nature wherever possible and beneficial. Herein lies a BIG problem. NOBODY knows what baby sulcatas (or most species) do in the wild, or where they go. Almost nothing is known. Wherever they are and whatever they are doing, they are very much out of the sight of human eyes. We don't see babies walking around at ground level, and I think we can eliminate the tree top canopies as a possibility, so where does that leave us? I am simply guessing based on wild adult behavior, observation of all ages of captives, and all the recent advances in pyramiding prevention theory. They simply must be underground a lot of the time. If this is true then EVERYBODY'S care sheets, including my own, are fatally flawed. We are advocating keeping a below ground, fossorial, species above ground all the time. No wonder they don't grow right! Some have called my current methods for raising babies "extreme" or accused me of using all the moisture, humidity and hydration to "over-compensate" for some incorrect element of their housing. They might be right. The above ground nature of our captive environments might be that incorrect element.

What follows is my attempt at more "natural" housing in a captive environment. I'm replacing my humid hide box with an underground humid "level". If they want to eat, drink or bask, they will have to come above ground. If not, they can stay underground where they feel safer. I have no idea how this will go, or what they will do, but it sure is fascinating to me. Two of these six babies are a little over a month old and four of them are around 6 weeks now. I hatched them all at my place out of my adults. From day one they have all gotten the "wet routine", which should help simulate the "rainy" season in which they normally hatch in the wild. Now these guys have always lived above ground and as such are pattered to do so. But two of them have been digging into the dirt in the back of their half buried flower pot cave in their outdoor 4x8' pen. They do seem to show some instinct to get underground. Their basking spot will be around 100 on the flat rock, and ambient for the whole room is 80-85.

Welcome to this year's first experiment! 

Here are some of the pieces used.






Here is the frame for the floor, half built.





All built.





I used corrugated plastic to make the floor and ramps.





Here I am adding the coco coir that makes up the underground portion and the ramps. I patted it all down with my hands and used it to form the ramps.










Here is a tortoise-eye view of the underground portion.





Here it is all finished.





I just finished it today and have not yet put them in it. Tomorrow I will introduce the six and let them try it out.


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## jkingler (Jan 14, 2012)

Looks awesome! :O Was it as easy to put together as it looks, or is it deceptively complicated? Think I may try to "steal" this idea, since you've made it public and all...


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## EKLC (Jan 14, 2012)

That looks awesome Tom. I'm interested to see if they spend extended periods down there, or will come and go. On a side note, is corrugated plastic a decent insulator, relative to wood of similar thickness?


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## Ksanroman (Jan 14, 2012)

I have sulcatas but I'm just begining to look into Leo's now, would this be the same with them too?


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## Tim/Robin (Jan 14, 2012)

Very ingenious Tom! I bet it stays nice and humid in the basement! It will be interesting to see how the tortoises do in there.


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## RianSeeking (Jan 14, 2012)

I'm really curious to see how they react.


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## ascott (Jan 15, 2012)

Fun stuff Tom!! I too will wait for the update on their adventure


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## N2TORTS (Jan 15, 2012)

Ultra nice ..... great concept and follow thru~ ....

" Two Thumbs up" Mr. Tom! 

JD~


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## coreyc (Jan 15, 2012)

Great stuff Tom cant wait to see how it goes


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## kbaker (Jan 15, 2012)

How natural is it to bask on a flat rock?


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## Tom (Jan 15, 2012)

jkingler said:


> Looks awesome! :O Was it as easy to put together as it looks, or is it deceptively complicated? Think I may try to "steal" this idea, since you've made it public and all...



Its really simple and easy, it just took some time. I just sort of pieced it together with a measuring tape and some PVC cutters. The joints were are .25-.50 cents a piece and I already had the pipe laying around. The corrugated plastic sheets came from Lowes and were $8 for a 30x36" sheet. It only took one sheet to do the whole enclosure.

You can't steal something that was given to you , but I would love to see your version.  As I said, this is not an original idea of mine, it was inspired by many others and THEIR original designs. Thanks to all who have inspired me. I really see this as a group effort and I think we are all collectively helping each other to learn more and better care for our tortoises.







EKLC said:


> That looks awesome Tom. I'm interested to see if they spend extended periods down there, or will come and go. On a side note, is corrugated plastic a decent insulator, relative to wood of similar thickness?



I have no idea if it would be a good insulator. Seems pretty thin to me, but if you layered it, I guess it would. I think the rigid foam sheets are just easier to use if insulation is your goal.





Ksanroman said:


> I have sulcatas but I'm just begining to look into Leo's now, would this be the same with them too?



Honestly, I don't know. I don't know if anyone does. I do know that baby leopards do a pretty good job of hiding too. I just don't know if is all underground, or not. I would not hesitate to try this with leopards. I don't see how it could harm them as long as temps don't drop in the humid underground portion.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 15, 2012)

The only thing I don't like about it is the substrate. I wish you would have used plain old dirt from the yard.


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## Tom (Jan 15, 2012)

kbaker said:


> How natural is it to bask on a flat rock?



I was thinking of all sorts of clever comebacks for you , but it just keeps occurring to me that the answer is truly, "I don't know." There could be a huge field of flat rocks right next to where all the wild females lay their eggs, and upon hatching each baby digs out and goes and finds its own flat rock to bask on...

I know, just being silly... 

But seriously, do you recommend no basking rock?


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## Jacqui (Jan 15, 2012)

I may be blind, but how are you planning on adding moisture to the bottom level? Are there holes in the plastic sheeting you used?

Since you used the PVC pipe, I would have done a low level adaptation of what we use outside in our enclosures. Run one pipe up to the top of the enclosure and have a hose attachment on the end. Then I would have drilled small holes along the bottom of the underground piping or added a couple of sprayer heads. Then just as needed run a hose from a faucet to mimic warm rain. Would eliminate worries about the upper level substrate getting washed down ramps or plugging holes in the plastic sheeting, if you were planning on keeping the bottom substrate damp from just watering the top layer. Like I said, I don't know what your current plans are for that.


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## wellington (Jan 15, 2012)

Love the idea. Can't wait to here how they do. Is there a way for you to get into the bottom level if someone needed help? Or will you have to take the top level off?
I have a leopard and he has enough substrate to dig down about 3 inches or more and doesn't dig at all. I did however make his hide go under ground sorta speak. I buried a plastic cup on an angle with coir on the bottom of it and a half wood log covering the cup. After about 2 weeks he finally went in it. Stays mainly towards the top of the hole, but I think I need a bigger cup. I do notice though that the moist spaghum moss that is on the very humid side is his favorite spot and he tries to cover himself up in it.


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## dmarcus (Jan 15, 2012)

Very cool, I think its a nice idea and another good option for those trying to make a nice enclosure in a smaller space...


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## spikethebest (Jan 15, 2012)

very nice Tom! I like it!


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## Tom (Jan 15, 2012)

emysemys said:


> The only thing I don't like about it is the substrate. I wish you would have used plain old dirt from the yard.



I should give that a try some time. I haven't done it yet, and I might really like it.


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## Katherine (Jan 15, 2012)

cool idea; I bet they like. My hatchlings always dig into the dirt at night but are out and about with the sun. It's nice that the babies in this enclosure would be able to do the same inside. If they aren't initially interested I might recommend trying regular dirt like Yvonne mentioned. Will be interested to here how this works out for you; thanks for posting!


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## Tom (Jan 15, 2012)

Jacqui said:


> I may be blind, but how are you planning on adding moisture to the bottom level? Are there holes in the plastic sheeting you used?
> 
> Since you used the PVC pipe, I would have done a low level adaptation of what we use outside in our enclosures. Run one pipe up to the top of the enclosure and have a hose attachment on the end. Then I would have drilled small holes along the bottom of the underground piping or added a couple of sprayer heads. Then just as needed run a hose from a faucet to mimic warm rain. Would eliminate worries about the upper level substrate getting washed down ramps or plugging holes in the plastic sheeting, if you were planning on keeping the bottom substrate damp from just watering the top layer. Like I said, I don't know what your current plans are for that.



In my room my humid hides almost never dry out. I might add a little water once every few months. I would anticipate the same thing here. It will be really easy to use a small cup to put more water down there, if I ever needed to. I can reach in pretty far with my hand. I made the openings big enough so that I would be able to reach in and grab the babies. Also the plastic platform has gaps along the sides and any excess water will drip down the sides and into the bottom.




dmarcus said:


> Very cool, I think its a nice idea and another good option for those trying to make a nice enclosure in a smaller space...



Yeah, if this works well, I'm thinking of doing it in a 40 gallon (36x18") as well. It basically DOUBLES the floor space.




katherine said:


> cool idea; I bet they like. My hatchlings always dig into the dirt at night but are out and about with the sun. It's nice that the babies in this enclosure would be able to do the same inside. If they aren't initially interested I might recommend trying regular dirt like Yvonne mentioned. Will be interested to here how this works out for you; thanks for posting!



Typically I just keep my indoor enclosures sparse, simple and functional, and concentrate most of my efforts on making the outdoor enclosures as perfect as I can. But it occurred to me that even with our nice weather here, they DO spend the majority of their time indoors. On a nice day my babies will spend a few hours outside, but all night, early morning and evening are all spent indoors. I hope this makes things more interesting for them...


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## Momof4 (Jan 15, 2012)

I love your idea! When I was reading your post, I pictured what you had constructed. Not the material just the underground plan. Your just to sexy for yourself!


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## wellington (Jan 15, 2012)

Did you put the babies in yet? Don't forget pics when you get them in there. A video would be even better I bet they are going to be gleaming ear to ear with their new home.


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## Tom (Jan 16, 2012)

These are my six holdbacks. I intend to keep and raise these ones for a while just for fun. The two smallest ones are 60 and 61 grams, and the largest (right in the middle of the pic) is 71.






Here they are in the new enclosure. At first they stayed close to the light and food. On the menu today is young mallow, wild onion/garlic and grass.





This one brave little girl walked to the edge and peered down the hole for a bit.





So on day 1, Sunday, nobody wanted to explore the underworld. Well, I should say, I didn't see any of them under there. Here is what I saw on the morning of day 2. They did explore the whole upper level on day 1. 





I'm not surprised they didn't take to it right away. Every time I have ever built a new burrow or shelter, it takes time for the tortoises to get used to it. Sometimes weeks. So today I put them all in the lower level a couple of times and let them find their way back to the light on their own. I looked in on them a dozen times and several times I saw one or two on the lower level. No pics yet. I'll try to get some tomorrow. They appear to feel totally comfortable in their new home as even on day 1, their appetite did not slow down even a little.


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## ShadowRancher (Jan 17, 2012)

This is reallyreally amazing and I'm super excited about it. Why did you wait until after I'd finished my new enclosure!?  guess I'll wait a bit and watch how your trial pans out...maybe this summer when I get Levi some sibs


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## dmarcus (Jan 17, 2012)

Are they all pretty much staying close to each other besides the occasional explorer?


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## Tom (Jan 17, 2012)

dmarcus said:


> Are they all pretty much staying close to each other besides the occasional explorer?



For the first few minutes they did, but by the end of the first day they were all over every inch of the place in typical sulcata fashion.


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## dmarcus (Jan 17, 2012)

Okay, guess once they felt safe they started doing there own thing..


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## kameya (Jan 17, 2012)

How about cleaning? Is it difficult to clean the basement area once the small tortoises start messing it up?


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## Tom (Jan 17, 2012)

kameya said:


> How about cleaning? Is it difficult to clean the basement area once the small tortoises start messing it up?



I don't think there will be much need for cleaning down there. My babies all poop in their daily soaks and on the occasion that they poop in the enclosure it is almost always on the basking rock. The food area is also "upstairs" and easy to clean up too. If they do decide to start using the restroom down there, I will have to contort my arms all around to clean it up. Probably make for some funny pictures.


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## Zamric (Jan 17, 2012)

Very clever! I wonder if I could build this in a 40 gal breeder tank....? Think I'll wait to see how yours does...


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 17, 2012)

Hey Tom...great idea, but aren't you worried about them getting too cold down there?


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## DeanS (Jan 17, 2012)

If I were doing this...and I'm not, I'd drill very small holes in the bottom of each PVC pipe...and have a feeder opening at the surface...this way you could pour just enough water from different locations to ensure subterranean moisture. Very ingenious thinking Tom!


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## pdrobber (Jan 17, 2012)

Interesting! Did you think about filling the whole bottom with substrate? (whether it be dirt, coco coir, sand, cypress, a mix) That way they can actually try burrowing and making tunnels or something (without the danger of actually being underground where you couldn't help them if a tunnel collapsed or something)

The ramps look kind of steep for their little bodies...are they able to climb up and down on their own or do they just slide down and need help getting up and out? 

When I see a double decker enclosure I worry that they'll go down, not be warm enough, find a corner and just sit there, not warm enough to be active and climb back up, eat, bask, drink, etc...


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## Tom (Jan 17, 2012)

Zamric said:


> Very clever! I wonder if I could build this in a 40 gal breeder tank....? Think I'll wait to see how yours does...



I've got a 40 right next to this one. I'm thinking about it too.




maggie3fan said:


> Hey Tom...great idea, but aren't you worried about them getting too cold down there?



Have you gone loony on us?

You were in that room, remember? Its the one with the two oil heaters on separate, but redundant thermostats. It never drops below 80 in the whole room. And the thermostat probes are about 2' off the ground so its even warmer than 80 higher up in the room. The only way for them to get cold down there would be if the power failed. Most "normal" people don't like to be in that room for more than a few minutes because its so hot and humid. Not to mention all the roach bins... 





pdrobber said:


> Interesting! Did you think about filling the whole bottom with substrate? (whether it be dirt, coco coir, sand, cypress, a mix) That way they can actually try burrowing and making tunnels or something (without the danger of actually being underground where you couldn't help them if a tunnel collapsed or something)
> 
> The ramps look kind of steep for their little bodies...are they able to climb up and down on their own or do they just slide down and need help getting up and out?
> 
> When I see a double decker enclosure I worry that they'll go down, not be warm enough, find a corner and just sit there, not warm enough to be active and climb back up, eat, bask, drink, etc...



Usually babies won't actually dig burrows. The smallest ones I've seen actually dig a burrow are 8-10". My little Daisy did it once. She was around 9-10" at the time.

I tried to find a pic that would show the incline of the ramps. They are not steep at all. They sort of corkscrew around in a very gentle slope.

I'm worried that they will stay down too much too, once they get used to it, but my older ones don't do this when they are outside. Time will tell. That's why its an experiment! Even if it does work for me, it still might not work as well for some people or some tortoises. I just think its kind of neat and fun, and if it goes the way I anticipate it will, it should be very good for them too.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 17, 2012)

Did you just say I was not 'normal'? Yes, Tom, I know I am not normal and I am seriously proud of it! 

But that is not the subject at hand...I really don't mean any disrespect. I keep Bob's shed about 80 sometimes higher never lower, however, Queenie is very cold when I get her out of bed. She is always under a large pile of hay with her eyes stuck shut and just very cold. The hay pile is 5 inches away from the black light and under a light test (children don't try this at home) performed just now here are the results, the ambient temp under the hay pile is 70 degrees, the temp against Queenie's carapace is 59 degrees and the overall temp in Bob's shed is 86 degrees. So if the hay pile is 70 and Bob's shed is 86 why is she still so cold? I am not trying to cause any trouble but something does not jibe and I can't figure out what it is right now, but I WILL worry about it until I figure out what it is.

This is what I envisioned, a long tunnel making it's way to a cavern type thing where they will rest eat and poop. The ceiling is low enough that they rub their carapaces against it but then they come to a small cave they had dug out previously, where they can use it for a dining room. I'm sorry Tom, I'm really not trying to cause you any trouble, but I can see that is what YOU are seeing. Perhaps it would be better if I just took my laptop and went home...


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## dmmj (Jan 17, 2012)

I think it looks good, my only concern, and this is a concern with any two tier habitat is I would always worry about them tumbling down and getting stuck on their backs.


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## ripper7777777 (Jan 17, 2012)

Looks good Tom, I know what Maggie is talking about, my enclosure temps can be high, yet in the hide itself it feels very cold. The moisture and evaporation will cool the air. I have since opened up my redfoots hide so that it gets more air circulation.

But in all reality they are probably not going to stay if it's to cold down there. So you may have to experiment with some heat down there.

Again this is a really neat idea, if it pans out I can see building a custom enclosure that opens up down there for access.


I look forward to following this thread.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 17, 2012)

Maggie, dear...you ARE home!!!

I think you can solve the heat problem (if there is one) with an under-the-tank heat stick-'em-on thingey.


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## Momof4 (Jan 17, 2012)

I still love the idea. I'm sure there's tweaking to be done but that's why it's an experiment. Those babies are gorgeous!


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## Kristina (Jan 17, 2012)

Great idea, Tom!

I have one small suggestion. I would suspend some sort of light over the rest of the tank. I think if you brighten the whole enclosure more, it would encourage them to explore the "dark" spaces below.


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## Zamric (Jan 17, 2012)

I think a simple rope heater would be sufficiant for lowlevel heating needs.... if its even needed.

.... I was wondering.... would this set-up be good for Redfoots? Do they need a subterainian refuge and would they us it if they had it? 

I like this set-up! BUT I haven't given up on raising a redfoot hatchling either... and since I don't have the space for ANOTHER Sulcata, the Redfoot wins! (or maybe a Leopard)

.... would this setup work for a Leopard...?


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## Tom (Jan 17, 2012)

Maggie, You aren't causing any trouble. We're just talkin' torts. If you have a tort temping at 59 in an 86 degree room, something is off somewhere. You either have an air leak somewhere or different temps throughout the room. Tomorrow I will stick a temp probe down there and satisfy everyone's temperature concerns. You should always say whatever you want on my threads. I love your input!

So far so good Capn'. No tumbling yet.

I like that idea Kristina. I've got to figure out a way to attach a light, as I have the whole top covered. I have a small one that will fit over the center glass portion of the top. I'll give it a shot tomorrow.

Zamric, I have no idea if tis idea is going to work for sulcatas, much less any other species.

A sincere thanks for all the support and suggestions from everyone!!  I still absolutely love having this forum of like-minded (nice way of saying "other crazy tortoise people") individuals to bounce these things off of.


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## morloch (Jan 17, 2012)

I'm sorry ,,, u had me at garlic??!! And wild onion??... Really,,is that for the sulcatas? I'm always looking for something different to give my guy,,, garlic and wild onion? 
( oh ,,, I think your new enclosure is wonderful!!),


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## Melly-n-shorty (Jan 17, 2012)

wow tom this is really neat. have you got any pics of them hanging out down below?


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## Tom (Jan 17, 2012)

morloch said:


> I'm sorry ,,, u had me at garlic??!! And wild onion??... Really,,is that for the sulcatas? I'm always looking for something different to give my guy,,, garlic and wild onion?
> ( oh ,,, I think your new enclosure is wonderful!!),



Its a weed that grows at my ranch. Really I'm not sure of the name, but I am pretty sure its the one they call wild garlic. It reminds me of what you would chop up to make chives, but its very tender. The tortoises love it. I'll post a pic ASAP.





Melly-n-shorty said:


> wow tom this is really neat. have you got any pics of them hanging out down below?



Got some today. I'll post them as soon as I get a chance.


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## morloch (Jan 18, 2012)

Thanks tom!! We have a year round garden centre, I would ask for it,


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## Tom (Jan 18, 2012)

morloch said:


> Thanks tom!! We have a year round garden centre, I would ask for it,



Your wording struck me funny... Do some places NOT have "year round" garden centers?


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## morloch (Jan 18, 2012)

Lol, most of them are closed for the season! Too cold for gardening,,, -8 here!!


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## Tom (Jan 18, 2012)

Its not easy to get good shots with this set up. Its so dark underneath, but with bad incandescent lighting up top. The hot spot created by the basking light makes the rest of it look dark. Anyhow, they are using the bottom from time to time now, but still spend most of their time up top. At least one of them slept down there last night.


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## ShadowRancher (Jan 18, 2012)

Glad to see they are figuring it out...interested to see what behavior develops as they continue to grow more accustomed to the option


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## wellington (Jan 18, 2012)

For your next project or maybe a revamp on this one. Make the bottom level kinda like a maze, with clear plastic so you can still see them, make smaller tunnels instead of being all open. The smaller spaces of tunnel ways may feel more like the underground space they walk through, under the ground cover maybe instead of under ground? Just a thought.


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## Kristina (Jan 18, 2012)

That tank looks to be at least a 5 footer... Can you hang a 4' shop light right IN the tank?


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## Tom (Jan 18, 2012)

wellington said:


> For your next project or maybe a revamp on this one. Make the bottom level kinda like a maze, with clear plastic so you can still see them, make smaller tunnels instead of being all open. The smaller spaces of tunnel ways may feel more like the underground space they walk through, under the ground cover maybe instead of under ground? Just a thought.



HEY!!! You are welcome to join in and do your OWN experiments any time you like BARB!


HAHAHA! I'm totally kidding and having fun...

I did consider the "open-ness" of this set up vs. the tightness of a barely big enough burrow... so much more to learn...



Kristina said:


> That tank looks to be at least a 5 footer... Can you hang a 4' shop light right IN the tank?



I don't think I have enough height left with the basement in there. I will measure. I actually have a 4 footer sitting here not being used.


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## morloch (Jan 18, 2012)

Wow Tom ,,, u did a great job!! Wish I would have thought of it!!! I have so much PVC pipe just stored away in boxes too!!! Lol


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## Melly-n-shorty (Jan 18, 2012)

love the pictures tom! I bet its fun to watch them in that set up!


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## ripper7777777 (Jan 19, 2012)

Man that looks great and should inspire a lot more double layer builds. It sure looks good and sweaty down there.


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## Tom (Jan 19, 2012)

ripper7777777 said:


> Man that looks great and should inspire a lot more double layer builds. It sure looks good and sweaty down there.



Thanks, I sure hope it does.


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## wellington (Jan 19, 2012)

Tom, I would love to help you out with some experiments. I only have one tort though  How many would you like to send me, so I can get started
I just thought maybe in your spare time, you would like to start another project . Of course just kidding. Not about sending me some torts though:shy:



wellington said:


> Tom, I would love to help you out with some experiments. I only have one tort though  How many would you like to send me, so I can get started
> I just thought maybe in your spare time, you would like to start another project . Of course just kidding. Not about sending me some torts though:shy:



I forgot, leopards only please


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## Tom (Jan 20, 2012)

So I checked the "underground" temps over the last couple of days and nights. We've had some exceptionally cold nights and the temp in the reptile room dipped all the way to 78. It was 77 in the underground portion of the new set-up during that time. By that sunny afternoon the room warmed up to 84 and the underground temp got up to 81. For the last two days the underground temp has been as low as 77 and as high as 81. I find it interesting the the temperature is pretty stable and changes less than the over all ambient room temp.


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## ripper7777777 (Jan 20, 2012)

You know this is gonna cause issue with the anti aquarium no air circulation people, I hope your prepared..... 


So how wet is it in their basement?


Keep us posted and updated with lots of pics, I may incorporate this idea into my outdoor table I have to build in spring. I was planning a burrow like that video on youtube, but this setup gives me a much better idea allowing access.


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## Kristina (Jan 20, 2012)

I was convinced for awhile to repeat that mantra - "Aquariums are bad." I have since changed my mind and I am back to using aquariums, so I stand behind Tom on that one 100%!


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## Tom (Jan 20, 2012)

ripper7777777 said:


> You know this is gonna cause issue with the anti aquarium no air circulation people, I hope your prepared.....
> 
> 
> So how wet is it in their basement?
> ...



Oh those folks already know where I stand, and I know where they stand. Its all okay.

The basement is damp but not wet. If you grab a handful of the coir and squeeze it you won't get a lot of drips, but your hand will be wet.

This idea was inspired by many others, so I can only hope that it in turn, inspires others. I would love to see other people's version of this with different innovations and improvements. We have some talented, creative people here on this forum and I'd love to see what they can do.



Kristina said:


> I was convinced for awhile to repeat that mantra - "Aquariums are bad." I have since changed my mind and I am back to using aquariums, so I stand behind Tom on that one 100%!



Kristina, at the very least you stand beside me... I've learned more from you than you have from me.


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## kbaker (Jan 21, 2012)

Tom said:


> kbaker said:
> 
> 
> > How natural is it to bask on a flat rock?
> ...



I am no better than you as we are all kind of guessing. I just don't see then looking for a rock to go sit on to bask. Mine find an open spot in the sun and stretch out. They don't look for heighth or a specific ground - just where the sun is shining. When we put them in an enclosure, they figure out the heat is under the light bulb and will go there no matter what is under it. Maybe a good experiment would be to set up two basking lights and put different surfaces under each - a flat rock, dirt, grass, wood...and let them give us an idea what they like.


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## wellington (Jan 21, 2012)

My leopard has a flag stone flat rock under the light, and he never goes on it. Always towards the corner just on the coir substrate, next to the rock. Hmmm


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## ascott (Jan 21, 2012)

Hi Tom...so what if instead of trying to hang the light from above you simply mount it behind the tank towards the rim level and tilt it towards the tank? This will allow illumination without having to be hung?


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## codyv34 (Jan 21, 2012)

i think i'm going to use your Pvc idea to make a hide/ second tier in part of my enclosure, thanks for the inspiration!


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## wellington (Jan 21, 2012)

codyv34 said:


> i think i'm going to use your Pvc idea to make a hide/ second tier in part of my enclosure, thanks for the inspiration!



PICTURES PLEASE


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## codyv34 (Jan 21, 2012)

wellington said:


> codyv34 said:
> 
> 
> > i think i'm going to use your Pvc idea to make a hide/ second tier in part of my enclosure, thanks for the inspiration!
> ...



Once it is finish they will be up!

the plan is to use the pvc as the frame, and then plastic as the platform for the top tier and ramp to get up to it. and then ill attach Hermit crab climbing fiber, that way it will give something for the tort to grip onto, but still have some flow in with the rest of the enclosure, hopefully with in the next week


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## jkingler (Jan 21, 2012)

> the plan is to use the pvc as the frame, and then plastic as the platform for the top tier and ramp to get up to it.


 Same here, but I am using Lexan. Should be fun to have a see through floor. Wonder if they will be spooked by it, necessitating lots of ground cover, or if I can just dab it here and there and observe life in the undergrowth. 



> and then ill attach Hermit crab climbing fiber, that way it will give something for the tort to grip onto


Where do you get that from?


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## ripper7777777 (Jan 21, 2012)

That's how mine are setup, pvc frame, acrylic deck with a ramp, I even have hermit crabs in with peanut to keep him company.


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## Zamric (Jan 22, 2012)

Hermit Crabs...? hmmmm...., how well do they cohabitate? arn't crabs meat-eaters? I don't think they would hurt your tort, but those 2 creatures have no common link to form a symbiosis except to mutually ignore one another.


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## ripper7777777 (Jan 22, 2012)

Zamric said:


> Hermit Crabs...? hmmmm...., how well do they cohabitate? arn't crabs meat-eaters? I don't think they would hurt your tort, but those 2 creatures have no common link to form a symbiosis except to mutually ignore one another.



Not to go to far from topic, but Hermit Crabs have premade stick food but they also love a long list of veggies and fruits.

My Hermit Crabs are all small to very small, thus no worries about hurting a tort. But I want to point out that my Hermit Crabs are also considered pets as well as scavengers. I do not put them in with my redfoots, I don't want to chance a crab becoming a snack.

If you search the web and or this forum you will find it's actually very common to combine the two pets.


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## Zamric (Jan 22, 2012)

see, that why I love this site! I learn new things EVERYDAY!


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## tortoises101 (Jan 22, 2012)

ripper7777777 said:


> You know this is gonna cause issue with the anti aquarium no air circulation people, I hope your prepared.....



Maybe that's why the tortoises don't use it that often? Still, it's an ingenious idea.


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## codyv34 (Jan 22, 2012)

> and then ill attach Hermit crab climbing fiber, that way it will give something for the tort to grip onto


Where do you get that from?

[/quote]

here is a link to it at petco, but i have seen it at petsmart alsohttp://www.petco.com/product/12007/T-Rex-Crab-Island-Climbing-Background.aspx


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## ShadowRancher (Jan 22, 2012)

My new set-up is still going strong so I didn't want to completely scrap it yet but with this as inspiration I put in a HUGE humid hide (like 1/4 of my Christmas tree box) and built up coir and dirt around it so Levi can easily get up there...he sort of has a loft, so thanks for the ideas Tom!


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## Tom (Jan 22, 2012)

ShadowRancher said:


> My new set-up is still going strong so I didn't want to completely scrap it yet but with this as inspiration I put in a HUGE humid hide (like 1/4 of my Christmas tree box) and built up coir and dirt around it so Levi can easily get up there...he sort of has a loft, so thanks for the ideas Tom!



I don't see any problem with your current set up.


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## JonahQKline (Jan 22, 2012)

This is AMAZING! Awesome! Might have to steal your idea


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## ShadowRancher (Jan 22, 2012)

Tom said:


> ShadowRancher said:
> 
> 
> > My new set-up is still going strong so I didn't want to completely scrap it yet but with this as inspiration I put in a HUGE humid hide (like 1/4 of my Christmas tree box) and built up coir and dirt around it so Levi can easily get up there...he sort of has a loft, so thanks for the ideas Tom!
> ...



I know I'm just tinkering  and I wanted a little extra space now  the faux burrow style that was the purpose here was obviously amazing but I like the actual doubling of floor space...I feel that many double level setups are just a ton of work without a whole lot of space payoff by the time the ramps and things are tort safe, this seems to solve that problem.


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## Tom (Jan 22, 2012)

JonahQKline said:


> This is AMAZING! Awesome! Might have to steal your idea



I hope you do! Just post pics so we can all see your version.


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## Livingstone (Jan 22, 2012)

Hey Tom,

Fantastic job, but I have to ask, how do you get them out of the bottom when you need to bath them??? And are you anticipating having to add water to the underground mixture?



DeanS said:


> If I were doing this...and I'm not, I'd drill very small holes in the bottom of each PVC pipe...and have a feeder opening at the surface...this way you could pour just enough water from different locations to ensure subterranean moisture. Very ingenious thinking Tom!



Dean asked the latter question and I didn't read an answer (I might have missed it).

Thanks.


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## Tom (Jan 23, 2012)

Livingstone said:


> Hey Tom,
> Fantastic job, but I have to ask, how do you get them out of the bottom when you need to bath them??? And are you anticipating having to add water to the underground mixture?
> Dean asked the latter question and I didn't read an answer (I might have missed it).
> Thanks.



I can reach my arm pretty far in there from either side, so I can get to them if need be. My plan is to catch them above ground when I need them.

I don't anticipate needing to add water much down there. The top is mostly covered and there is not much evaporation. If I do need to water it. I can run water down the sides or just dump some down there with a cup or hose.


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## pdrobber (Mar 1, 2012)

how are these little ones doing?


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## Tom (Mar 1, 2012)

I sold them. Somebody needed them and made me an offer I couldn't refuse. They were all using the underground portion, but only occasionally. With my next round of babies, I'm going to try doing it with only half of an upper deck.


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## Arizona Sulcata (Mar 1, 2012)

I like this idea. My only beef with it is lack of UV rays however like I said, overall I like it. Do you keep any food or water below or is that strictly at the top level? Also how are the temps down below? I could imagine it would be rather cold, how do you keep temps up? Id love to give this a try!


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## Tom (Mar 1, 2012)

They still went out for sunshine nearly every day. I seldom bother with artificial UV in my indoor enclosures. Just don't need it when they get so much real sunshine all year.

No food or water down below. All of that is above ground.

The whole room is heated to 80 all the time. It creeps up to 90 in the summer, but never below 80. The temp down below was usually 1 or 2 degrees cooler than ambient.

I would love to see someone else give this a go. This or something similar. I really think that something like this is going to work very well for raising smooth healthy babies. I'll always be tweaking and trying to improve upon the idea.


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## Arizona Sulcata (Mar 1, 2012)

Sounds great. I'll just have to figure out a heat solution for mine. I don't have a room that stays that warm. I'm sure I'll figure something out though, thanks again.


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## nicoleandrocky (Mar 2, 2012)

That is really cool, maybe thinking of doing that


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## Tom (Mar 2, 2012)

Please do. Modify the design to suit you. And please show lots of pics to inspire the rest of us. Somebody somebody is going to stumble onto the perfect baby set up and I hope they share it. At the very least I pick up all sorts of helpful tidbits from everyone else's designs. maybe there isn't a one size fits all perfect set up, but the more we learn the better.


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