# Do tortoises get full?



## fifthdawn (Jan 12, 2010)

I'm just curious. I've heard people say feed as much as theyll eat until they walk away.

I haven't tried this yet, but to me they never seem to get full. I think they have to eat a LARGE amount before theyll actually walk away.


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## dmmj (Jan 12, 2010)

I can't answer that question 100%, but I would have to say that yes they would get full since their stomachs are not infinite, but as far as feeding goes, my rule has always been to feed them whatever they can eat in 20 minutes and then if they want more they can always graze in their enclosure, but they do seem to pack away a lot sometimes.


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## spikethebest (Jan 12, 2010)

tortoises--- ive noticed after they are done eating the amount they want, they will walk all over their food

turtles-- are quite picky eaters, and sometimes eats a lot, and sometimes doesnt

aquatic turtles--- eats everything i put in the water, so I limit that amount

hope that helps somewhat. thats just my own experience.


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## fifthdawn (Jan 12, 2010)

For both aquatics and land I just feed what would fit in their head if hollow.

I was just curious so I tried the all they can eat method just now. They did walk away after awhile. But thats after eatting 4-5 times their head size or what I would normally feed.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jan 12, 2010)

My redfoots stop on their own, but I usually remove the food after a while anyways for cleanliness.


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## spikethebest (Jan 12, 2010)

fifthdawn said:


> For both aquatics and land I just feed what would fit in their head if hollow.
> 
> I was just curious so I tried the all they can eat method just now. They did walk away after awhile. But thats after eatting 4-5 times their head size or what I would normally feed.



how did you determine that the size of their head should be the amount of food that they eat? did someone tell you that? one of my torts has a relatively small head, but a HUGE stomach, so she grazes most of the day. but then poops most of that out, but is she growing at a normal rate.


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## fifthdawn (Jan 12, 2010)

Umm beside this forum, I'm also member at turtle forums. Its a pretty common method there. Its also one of the few method I've go off the article in austin's turtle page. http://www.austinsturtlepage.com/Articles/howmuchhowoften.htm

You can pack quite a bit of veggie in a tortoise head. I just smash up a leaf or two to get a rough estimate of how much it is. Now that I'm thinking about it, it probably wouldnt apply for tortoises. My turtles eat pellets and pellets have a lot more nutritional value, maybe thats why I feed the head size.

EDIT: Also looking at the anatomy of a turtle, http://www.turtlefan.com/Morphology/anatomy-turtle.jpg the head is roughly the size of the stomach. Its prob not a good scaled image but other images in the past that I've found seems quite similar. But thats a turtle's anatomy.

EDIT: Heres an actual picture of a turtle's insides, http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll146/findmeareptile/TurtleDissectionLabel.jpg (Dont click if you find it might disturb you). The stomach is a little smaller but stomachs can expand and I would image if expanded, it would be roughly size of head. Theres no science backing up this method but it is commonly used for turtles.


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## GBtortoises (Jan 13, 2010)

fifthdawn said:


> For both aquatics and land I just feed what would fit in their head if hollow.
> 
> I was just curious so I tried the all they can eat method just now. They did walk away after awhile. But thats after eatting 4-5 times their head size or what I would normally feed.



The amount of good that would fit in their head if were hollow? Let's look at that one with some logic: A hatchling tortoise's head on average is smaller than a marble. Is that really enough food to sustain them? A turtle's head is even smaller in most species.

Even as adults the average tortoise's head is only about the size of a ping pong ball and I'm stretching that one, since most are probably smaller. An adult Sulcata is a bit larger and an Aldabra's head might be comparible with a softball. None of those volumes would contain enough food to sustain them. _Maybe_ if you were feeding them once every hour for the entire day while they were awake!


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## fifthdawn (Jan 13, 2010)

Hmm, but at the same time, hatchlings stomach is also smaller. http://www.redfoots.com/pics/howmuch.jpg This is taken from TerryK's website on how much to feed a hatchling. If you crumple all those veggies together, it would probably only fill up 3/4 the head, or about the same size as the head.

I think you can actually crumple a large amount of greens into a small area.

But like I said, this probably only applies for pellet diets since theres more nutrition per g of food.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 13, 2010)

Actually redfoots.com is not my 'site.. I am only the "consultant" at best; which is why I have "revised" my caresheet.

Regardless.. I have found that the more 'nutritious' their food the less they will [ need to ] eat. Plus I happen to prefer to keep them hungry than overfed. Feed them Romaine and they will always be hungry.. feed them dandelion greens.. hibiscus, etc. and you'll see a difference.

If they walk away with some left.. I would decrease that amout by at least 1/3!

Terry K

BTW - [ I can see why they're always starving. Feeding 'pellet' food will for sure keep them hungry.. don't believe the label. ]


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## Madkins007 (Jan 13, 2010)

GBtortoises said:


> The amount of good that would fit in their head if were hollow? Let's look at that one with some logic: A hatchling tortoise's head on average is smaller than a marble. Is that really enough food to sustain them? A turtle's head is even smaller in most species.
> 
> Even as adults the average tortoise's head is only about the size of a ping pong ball and I'm stretching that one, since most are probably smaller. An adult Sulcata is a bit larger and an Aldabra's head might be comparible with a softball. None of those volumes would contain enough food to sustain them. _Maybe_ if you were feeding them once every hour for the entire day while they were awake!



The problem with looking at things logically is that sometimes it can flip on you. If you look at an anatomical chart or poster you'll see that the stomach is generally portrayed as about the size of the head- it is not very large.

We know that the average nutritional need of a reptile, including a tortoise, is described by the formula "Body weight (in kilograms) to the -0.75th power, times 32 equals the basal metabolic rate (BMR)". You increase the BMR for growing or active animals by 50-100% depending on how much more active, etc.

By that formula, a 50gr/2oz tortoise only needs about 3 calories a day. Even doubling the BMR, they only need about 6 calories a day, about a strawberry worth.

The 'head bowl' idea is a well-established method of portion control on tortoises because no one in their right mind is going to count calories like that for every meal. Sure, when we are working with low-calorie greens, we sort of 'pack them in' pretty tight, but the idea holds.


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## stells (Jan 14, 2010)

I have never heard of the head size method... i have heard oof the feed enough to cover your tortoises shell theory... 

Personally i wouldn't do either... i don't restrict food... once it is put it i don't take what is left out after a certain period of time (another method)... it stays there for the day... and they will go back and forward to it...

They graze and are not going to think oh i have eaten what would fit in my head now so i am done... i have seen tortoises that have been restricted of food... one tortoise (Ibera) at 10 years old... was just 4 inches in length... and female...

There is a big thing about growing tortoises to quickly will lead to pyramiding... i have found this not to be true... and have a 3 year old Ibera (female) here that is already over 4 inches in length.... with no signs of pyramiding...


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## GBtortoises (Jan 14, 2010)

Well Mark, I hate to inject more logic here but what about the fact that much of the tortoises food supply is actually stored and processed within the small and large intestines? The stomach is only the starting point of food storage and digestion in tortoises. It begins the breakdown of what will actually pass into the intestines. 

If you believe what you posted take some of your hatchling Redfoots, feed them once daily only the amount of food the size of their head for the rest of their lives. Making sure of course that within that amount all of the nutrition, vitamins, minerals, calcium, fiber and protein that they require for healthy survival under normal temperatures and humidity are included.

Let me know how that works for you in a few years. If any survive.

About a strawberry worth?


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## egyptiandan (Jan 14, 2010)

Here's what the author wrote 

LetÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s look at some common forum recommendations re: how much to feed at a single meal.

1.) All they can eat in 5 minutes (some say 15 minutes).

2.) All they can eat, period.

3.) What you think would fit in the head if it were hollow (presumably from nose to behind the red patches on a RES).

4.) Feed to partial satiation, where there's a noticeable drop-off in appetite & you subjectively feel you've fed 'quite a bit' but the animal would eat considerably more, were it provided. (I recommend this one).

He lists 4, #3 is what the OP is doing. The author though recommends #4. So I'm a bit lost as to why than you would follow #3

I'm going to have to agree with Gary and Kelly on this. When we are talking tortoises we are talking herbivores and omnivores (Redfoots being omnivores). Herbivores are eating mainly plant material and to get the nutrition from them you have to eat quite a bit and have a slow gut transit time. This way the food has a chance to be broken down in the stomach and the nutrition extracted in the intestines.
Omnivores have a shorter gut transit time because of the higher nutrition content of the food eaten (fruits and meat for a Redfoots).
So tortoises have a built in mechanism (their digestive systems) that regulates the amount of nutrition they get by how long the food stays there. So as long as your feeding the proper diet for the species, mainly plants for herbivores and plants, fruits and animals for the omnivores, you really can't feed to much. 

Danny


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## GBtortoises (Jan 14, 2010)

I agree stells, I don't restrict food either per say except to clean up what is left at the end of the day. I do control the amount of food that I feed based on the amount that they left, if any, at previous feedings. I must admit that I do this more for my sake than there's simply because it cost me alot to feed them when they're indoors and I can't see wasting it if I don't have to! 

Outdoors during the summer they forage and graze as much as they want to. I just keep dumping the weeds in and taking the stuff they've trampled out. 

I don't have any obese tortoises and I have several younger ones that are the same age that have grown at different rates.

I have a group of (8) holdback Ibera that were born in August 2008 and are averaging about 2 1/4 to 2 1/2". Smooth as smooth can be, very active and not a health problem whatsoever. Sounds like they are right on track with the same growth rate that you've experienced with yours.


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## stells (Jan 14, 2010)

Outdoors mine don't stop... they will forage all day... i do have planted enclosures so they walk around picking at that... a few weeks into the summer i am usually having to dump in more weeds i have picked as there is no longer enough to sustain them... this then carries on til the end of the season.... might have to plant more heavily lol

I don't know about over there but here there is also alot that say tortoises should put on no more than 2-4g a month... any tortoise... no matter of the size or the species... another rule i don't abide... if i did that my 3 year old Ibera should be around 12 years old... which is ridiculous...


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 14, 2010)

So...... bottom line - amount depends on the species? That's what I'm hearing. And 'age' is a factor also. Are we trying to justify feeding.. or allowing them to eat.. as much as they can/want?

Just trying to clarify.

With redfoots: Too much ( with the proper humidity ) will create space 'between' the carapace scutes [ not 'stacked' as in pyramided ] and still be smooth. 

NERD


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## GBtortoises (Jan 14, 2010)

Terry-Actually I do think that the amount of food consumed depends upon species to some degree. Because different species have different requirements based on their environment. I cannot say that I have any scientific proof to back up my believe. Only what I have observed with my own animals here and information gathered from talking with others. Some tortoises like Sulcata that are true grazers devour larger amounts of nutrient poor, high fiber foods. Northern Mediterraneans, which is mainly what I keep, don't truly graze much but more so they forage for food, often going around their outdoor enclosures and picking certain things to munch, even digging up fresh shoots to get more of the base of the plants.. Indoors they are much more predictable I think simply because their ability to forage is temporarily taken away from them (unfortunately). They also never turn down vitamin rich vegetables and eat quite a large amount of calcium. Years ago I had a large group of Redfoots, but way before we knew as much as we do know. I only have three at the moment so really can only base what I know about them on what I have seen in these three. Mine for the most part do not eat nearly as much volume-wise as my other species. They will barely take a bite of any greens. They seem to prefer to wait it out for the vegetables, fruits & protein. In terms of the quantity and ingredients of their diet I treat each species differently based on their

I don't think age is a factor as much as activity level. I have adults of the same species that consume everything they see. They are also almost always the most active of the group. I have other adults of the same species, in the same group that eat far less and are often more content to sit around and watch the more active ones running around in circles! 

I was just comparing Stells Ibera growth with that of my own since we both seem to have a similar outlook on feeding.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 14, 2010)

GB - not sure your name?

The thing that concerns me "across-the-board" is these authors that have a couple years of experince in Brazil or Colombia somewhere and write a book about their observations based on a 100? adults.. in the wild!

True it helps(?) to have an idea what these creatures do and eat.. in the wild.

Someone [ un-named ] asked me if studying 100 redfoots for 2 years in the wild the same as studying 20 in captivity [ from the egg, etc. ] for 10 years.. even just as good or better? Hope I didn't confuse that.

I said.. absolutely not! Keeping these creatures in captivity is the "best" way to know how to keep them in captivity.. not in the wild. Deep theology huh?

I'm not discounting knowing where they come from is important.. terrain, temps, etc. However at best we can come close to feeding them what is local there.. here. True.. it is easier when one lives in southern FL! But you and I don't. So we do the best we can with what we have to do with and trust their "winter-lifestyle" doesn't have a lasting impression on their health and well-being. I doubt it really does! Surely it is easier to keep Mediterraneans in the North.. than redfoots.

A little "off-topic" I realize.

Thanks for the clarification on feeding.. I figured as much...

NERD


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## GBtortoises (Jan 14, 2010)

Terry-(I'm Gary by the way). I do absolutely agree that the best way to know how to keep them in captivity is to learn from keeping them in captivity. But I also think that it's important to know what their environmental needs are as a species in the wild to in order to aid in their captive care. I try to suggest to people to learn as much as they can about where the species of tortoise they have is from; it's climate, it's seasonal changes, it's diet (even though we may not be able to pinpoint specific plants) and everything else about it's natural environment. I think by doing this it gives us a better handle on their needs. I'm not suggesting that someone try to completely replicate their natural environment. That would be impossible from the start since we are keeping them captive. But in most cases I think it's important to come close to key elements of their existence such as seasonal changes, temperature fluctuations, humidity levels and changes, etc...

I also take "wild" studies with a grain of salt in that it's a good place to learn some basics that are recordable such as some of the information above. But to rely on one paper, or one study group to tell you what the entire population does which is scattered over tens of thousands of miles most likely in several microclimates and varying environments would be inaccurate for sure. 

Yes, I learned a long time ago that as much as I love Redfoots and other warmer climate tortoises the Mediterraneans were best suited for my climate. They can go outdoors here usually from early April to late October. Some of my older adults spend their entire lives outdoors and are hibernating in their insulated shelters under about 2 feet of snow!

But that's another thread altogether and we've already hogged too much of this one! Sorry folks, I'll stop yapping now!


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## Madkins007 (Jan 14, 2010)

GBtortoises said:


> Well Mark, I hate to inject more logic here but what about the fact that much of the tortoises food supply is actually stored and processed within the small and large intestines? The stomach is only the starting point of food storage and digestion in tortoises. It begins the breakdown of what will actually pass into the intestines.
> 
> If you believe what you posted take some of your hatchling Redfoots, feed them once daily only the amount of food the size of their head for the rest of their lives. Making sure of course that within that amount all of the nutrition, vitamins, minerals, calcium, fiber and protein that they require for healthy survival under normal temperatures and humidity are included.
> 
> ...



You'll notice, I'm sure, that the strawberry worth was for a 2 oz tortoise. For a 1kg/2lb tort it would be 32 calories, for a 2kg/4lb it is 54 calories BMR (more for active animals). As the animal is larger, the caloric needs increase.

I did notice to my chagrin that a sentence was lost in my editing- there is an important difference between high-caloric grocery store foods and pellets (which should be limited) and low-nutrient wild graze (which does not generally need to be). 

The volume of the digestive tract is an issue, certainly, but the slow processing speeds should be considered as well- it takes them up to 4 times longer for a tortoise to process a given food than it does a similar mammal- up to 8 days for dry forbs in Leopard Tortoises as an example. 

I also did not claim that it is the method I use. Mine is to vary light, heavy, and fasting days indoors and allow free foraging with some supplementing outdoors.


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## Tom (Jan 15, 2010)

I once tried the "lets just see how much they can eat thing" once. When Scooter and Bert, my sulcatas were each about a foot long I put out three full big heads of romaine. It was gone in minutes and they turned and went right back to grazing. In the spring, when the rains come and the weeds really take off, I let them run loose on the 5 acre ranch. The only time they are not eating is when they finish a weed patch and are walking to the next one.


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## saurabh1985 (Jan 18, 2010)

If you believe what you posted take some of your hatchling Redfoots, feed them once daily only the amount of food the size of their head for the rest of their lives. Making sure of course that within that amount all of the nutrition, vitamins, minerals, calcium, fiber and protein that they require for healthy survival under normal temperatures and humidity are included.

Thank's a lot


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