# pyramided torts... still?



## moswen (Jan 7, 2011)

you know, anger is nothing new to my emotions. i get irritated pretty easily... most of it is just me and my personality and i know it, so i just calm myself and supress my feelings. most of my anger/irritation issues no one would ever know, because i'm master enough of myself to understand when my anger/irriation is or is not justified.... i mean, i really can't expect everyone i meet to already know i have a real problem with sounds... sounds are the worst. i can't stand extremely loud noises, repetitive noises, people touching me in crowds, a night time dj at my local radio station (oh i can't stand her voice!), allowing the light switch to "click" when you could grab it with your fingers and gently glide it up with no annoying end "click" sound at all, dogs barking... i know, i'll be the first to admit -i'm wierd!

but really, i feel as though this time it's justified. i just can't fathom how there are STILL pyramided torts being sold (*cough*kingsnake*cough*) in the world today. yes, i understand, a 30 year old tort has no other way to be. the information we've recently uncovered is only 12 years old. but a 3 year old? a 2 year old? even at 5 years old i feel as though the information is old enough to be trusted and that they should be smooth. when i see an ad for a ___ year old tortoise, and it's under 5 years old, i feel as though the breeder should just know better. 

sorry, i don't care if you've been doing it your whole life and this how you do it and you've raised 20 generations of "healthy, happy torts;" their shells are NOT supposed to be that way and it IS bad for them. it creates pockets in a shell that's supposed to be hard, smooth, dense, and increadibly sturdy. a pyramided tort's shell is NOT sturdy. it is a very dangerous attribute for them to have. and you, as an EXPERIENCED, KNOWLEDGEABLE TORTOISE KEEPER should know better!!!!

it's a shame, the poor tortoise is going to live with a shell for it's whole life of 50-100 years, grown the way nature did not intend, because some people are just too retarded to read up, or care, or bother themselves with the time to soak a tortoise. really, i have 6 and it takes me less than 1 hour a day to feed and soak them. the longest part is just preparing it, the amount of tortoises i have doesn't really affect it. i feel it would probably take close to the same time if i had 1 or 20. 

if it's your job and all you do is sell torts, or if you see it as a second job and you're breeding to make some extra money, should you not spend the time to do so correctly? if you've got 200 hatchlings and you don't have the time to soak them all, maybe you should not have 200 hatchlings, or be doing this as your second -or even first- job. if you can't do your job with an excellence---- or even a MEDIOCRE--- that speaks that you might know a thing or two about what you're doing, then what ARE you doing? 

and please understand, i understand that a small amount of pyramiding just can't be helped. that doesn't make me angry. at least you're trying. what i'm talking about is the poor babies that are so pyramided you can't even hide it with an angled-top shell shot. i've seen a lot of pics of people trying to get the best angle to hide the pyramiding too. 

i mean, why even de-worm your tortoises? why buy them the correct light? why FEED them? why not just allow them to deteriorate until they're picked up by someone who has a compassion and a heart for them, and leave them to someone else to bring back from the brink of death? and HOW ON EARTH can you DARE to call them "BEAUTIFUL"???

okay. the end. i feel better now. thanks for listening!


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## jrholls (Jan 7, 2011)

Amen.


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## onarock (Jan 7, 2011)

So, your saying they should be soaked more? Is that the cause?


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## moswen (Jan 7, 2011)

haha, onarock, are you being serious or joking? i guess in humid hawaii you should never have a problem with a pyramided tortoise, but in less-than-humid oklahoma we have to soak our torts daily to give them enough humidity to keep their shells smooth. it isn't completely understood why just yet, but it is pretty much confirmed that smooth shells are a result of high humidity. some of the speculations involve a lack of humidity creating a dry shell that is not lubricated enough to be able to grow out and around, so it grows up instead. instead of increasing the size of the tortoise, which demands more lubrication, it has to grow somewhere, so it grows up, because that size stays relatively the same and only slightly larger with each growth ring. again though, that's not 100% cemented in scientific facts.


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## Neal (Jan 7, 2011)

Since this post is in the general section, I won't debate your post, however I don't agree with asome of your opinions. I will say that I agree with EJ Pirog and others that a pyramdided totoise can still be healthy. 

I do agree with you that we know enough now that "gross pyramiding" can be avoided. Unfortunatley there are a lot of people out there that don't have this information. I wonder what percentage of the tortoise keeper population our group of 5,000 ish represents.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 7, 2011)

Rebekah, I don't know what got you all rattled up, but it takes 4 things to keep a tortoise from pyramiding, a good and varied diet, strong and consistent UVB, lots of exercise and high (80%) humidity, miss any one of those and you've got pyramids. You *MUST* be consistent in making sure you take care of every one of those things or you go wrong and you've got pyramids and once they start you have the hella time stopping it. The humidity is more than just soaking the animal, you must keep a moist substrate and finding a good substrate is not easy for some people. They needs lots of exercise, that means taking them out of whatever habitat they're in and walking them around, soaking daily is a must and lots of dark leafy greens and weeds are necessary. So while I say there's only 4 things they are hard to complete for some people. It's time consuming and all encompassing. Completing all 4 things daily are a must or you've got pyramids and doing those 4 in the winter for some of us is really hard...So while I totally agree with your rant it's not as easy as it sounds. I can't STAND looking at a pyramided young tortoise knowing how the rest of his life is going to be. 
I see Bob out in the snow pawing at the frozen grass and laugh, but how do I get exercise for my 7 small tortoises? I certainly can't make them run around in the snow and I don't ever advocate letting them run around the house. So I have created a small exercise area using astro turf (remember that?) a small fence keeping it enclosed and rocks to climb over and on. They have a 100 watt incandescent bulb for heat and me sitting there to tip them back over as they tumble off the rocks. I have branches to help too. Spring and summer will be easier for me (and them) but for now, it's my created jungle gym for my small tortoises and so far they are healthy and smooth...so that's how I do it...I hope this helps somebody with the same problems...thank heaven my box turtles are adults now and smooth as a babies butt. My water turtles are also smooth, so I just have the small tortoises to worry about and I will be getting 9 or 10 of them next week so they will be added to my gym routine...It gets me up in the morning...


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## onarock (Jan 7, 2011)

Well, like I have stated before on other posts, I have tortoises with pyramid shells. I use my platynota example, of the 8 I have 4 have smooth shells, 2 have almost smooth (a little lumpy, but not pyramid) and 2 have pyramid shells. I have kept them all the same. I'm not disputing what people are finding so far in regards to "swamp keeping", I just dont think its natural for some species (mainly babcocki and sulcata). Your right I do live in a place with high humidity. I also live in a place where a 100 degree day or hotter is almost non existant and even a 95 degree day is rare and all my tortoses thrive. I'm not sold on the "swamp". I do, however, think that humidity plays a part in an equasion in relation to heat and basking temps. 

As far as not being happy with what your seeing on kingsnake in ragards to younger tortoises and pyramid shells, I think maybe a deep breath is in order. Not everyone is sold on the "swamp" theory and most probably dont know about it. There are many examples of the pharmaceutical industry pushing drugs on people only to find out years later that they have really harmfull side affects. "The Devil I Know".

We here, well most on TFO, advocate "Responsable" tortoise husbandry in regards to our overall approach, yet we seem to be jumping head first into a method of husbandry that is backed by very little, if any scientific study. Is this really Respnsable? This is the one area that I have to agree with A.H. on. Again, I want to state that I'm not saying that its not working, I just believe high humidity, 80% and up is only recissary because there is an issue somewhere else in the method. Its not enough just to say keep them hot and humid and thats that, because if we have learned anything in the past 20 years of tortoise husbandry its that we dont really know anything or at least much.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 7, 2011)

Wow, Rebekah: You got all riled up!! You go girl!


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## zzzdanz (Jan 7, 2011)

Great post onarock!!!!!


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## moswen (Jan 7, 2011)

lol, thanks yvonne! i'm all cooled down now after a day of housework, so sorry guys about the rant, i do realize there's more to it than just the soaking, but soaking is 99% of it i believe. good diets, excersize, and the right bulb on newspapers and no water source anywhere will still result in a pyramided tort. just look at mos. i'm really quite a believer in richard fife's findings about the soaking and humid substrate. 

mos is still kind of pyramided too you know, even though i didn't start his pyramiding, i have a pyramided hatchling and i'm not pointing fingers... like i told you in the opening paragraph, i get pretty irritated/angry a lot! i'm over it now though, i just had to vent to someone who at least understands tortoises, kaylynn would have probably looked at me with a big question mark on her face if i'd said all that to her...!

just one thing though, i don't agree when it is said some people may not have the information... the internet is in everyone's household these days, and information on any subject is just a click away. i know alot of the information on the internet is out-dated, but if you're going to take the time to breed and sell the babies, you should know what you're doing. which involves research, and a couple of good books and some good internet reading is really quite simple to acquire these days.

just like the law... i believe ignorance is no excuse! especially when information is so readily available!


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 7, 2011)

moswen said:


> lol, thanks yvonne! i'm all cooled down now after a day of housework, so sorry guys about the rant, i do realize there's more to it than just the soaking, but soaking is 99% of it i believe. good diets, excersize, and the right bulb on newspapers and no water source anywhere will still result in a pyramided tort. just look at mos. i'm really quite a believer in richard fife's findings about the soaking and humid substrate.
> 
> mos is still kind of pyramided too you know, even though i didn't start his pyramiding, i have a pyramided hatchling and i'm not pointing fingers... like i told you in the opening paragraph, i get pretty irritated/angry a lot! i'm over it now though, i just had to vent to someone who at least understands tortoises, kaylynn would have probably looked at me with a big question mark on her face if i'd said all that to her...!
> 
> ...



Rebekah.. unfortunately "most" of these "tortoise-mills" [ like puppy-mills ] only care about one thing -$$$. And the 'Petstores' support them.. and sell stuff that isn't needed or can be bought for 1/4 the amount at Lowe's, etc.

You think you are frustrated? Those of us that breed and sell tortoises have a hard time convincing...... that paying a little more for a well-started healthy hatchling, etc. [ which costs more to create ] is the best bargain out there! Even if a well-started healthy hatchling, etc. costs 2X as much.. you'll have no Vet. bills and will receive advice [ for life ] and a Caresheet that works. Much less than 1X visit to the Vet., etc., etc., etc.! ( consider the 'Petstores' too )

Is anyone hearing this.. anyone? Reply please.....

Terry K


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## onarock (Jan 7, 2011)

Maybe they are still willing to keep their tortoises dry and only soaking 2-3 times a week, because without concrete scientific backing and the assurance that THERE ARE NO BAD SIDE AFFECTS from keeping tortoises "swampy" its not a chance their willing to take. 

I understand people wanting to do whats right by their tortoises. I also understand the passion people are developing for wanting a smooth shelled tortoise. I also think that the "as a matter of fact" stance on humidity and hydration some here are promoting is a bit premature and boarderline reckless.


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## John (Jan 7, 2011)

i here ya terry


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## RianSeeking (Jan 7, 2011)

I like maggie's exercise gym idea. I think I need to make a run to The Home Despot.


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## John (Jan 7, 2011)

onarock said:


> Maybe they are still willing to keep their tortoises dry and only soaking 2-3 times a week, because without concrete scientific backing and the assurance that THERE ARE NO BAD SIDE AFFECTS from keeping tortoises "swampy" its not a chance their willing to take.
> 
> I understand people wanting to do whats right by their tortoises. I also understand the passion people are developing for wanting a smooth shelled tortoise. I also think that the "as a matter of fact" stance on humidity and hydration some here are promoting is a bit premature and boarderline reckless.


excactly what promted people too go from fife's theory too swamp,when did a humid hide become insuficient?


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## onarock (Jan 7, 2011)

squamata said:


> onarock said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe they are still willing to keep their tortoises dry and only soaking 2-3 times a week, because without concrete scientific backing and the assurance that THERE ARE NO BAD SIDE AFFECTS from keeping tortoises "swampy" its not a chance their willing to take.
> ...


Maybe I'm using bad terminoligy. I am using "swamp" to describe what I have been reading in regards to pyramid shells and what it takes to prevent it, i.e. (high humidity 80% plus, twice daily soakings and constant misting) It seems to me that people were taking the humid hide theory that the Fifes "popularized" to the next level because they still were not getting the results they wanted.


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## John (Jan 7, 2011)

i have a tort that came from richard and it is fine in every way


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## onarock (Jan 7, 2011)

squamata said:


> i have a tort that came from richard and it is fine in every way



Congrats!


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## John (Jan 7, 2011)

I find interesting that you have 8 torts raised the same way and half show signs of pyramiding,if you publish this info it will stop all the debate.we just need too determine if what you did do caused the normals too happen or if what you did not do caused the pyramiding.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 7, 2011)

squamata said:


> onarock said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe they are still willing to keep their tortoises dry and only soaking 2-3 times a week, because without concrete scientific backing and the assurance that THERE ARE NO BAD SIDE AFFECTS from keeping tortoises "swampy" its not a chance their willing to take.
> ...



Richard Fife did/does not have a theory of "swamp"*.. he found with his redfoot hatchlings that higher humidity [ misting directly on carapace.. which he has never made 'public' claims to ] had a dramatic affect on the growth/appearance. He has/had no issues with his sulcata's because they are provided with 'natural' outdoor/indoor environment.

* Tom came up with the "swamp" theory because of his -% of humidity where he lives.

Unlikely there will EVER be any "scientific" research done for ANY tortoise.. in relation to pyramiding in captivity.. so you can discount that excuse onarock and others'. How could raising a tortoise in captivity to have a smooth shell ( like in the wild ) EVER have long-term ill-effects? Are you serious? 

Often one or more of the "balanced" needs have to be 'enhanced' to get the needed results.. low humidity environment happens to be one of them!

[ since I type and think so slow.. I often have others reply or edit what I'm replying to before I post ]

Terry K


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## Shelly (Jan 7, 2011)

moswen said:


> we have to soak our torts daily to give them enough humidity to keep their shells smooth.



How does soaking a tort give it "humidity"? All it does it get them wet and give them a chance to drink.


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## John (Jan 7, 2011)

Redfoot NERD said:


> squamata said:
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> > onarock said:
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you misunderstood i didn't say fife had a swamp theory,he had a humidity theory simply providing a humid hide.in regards too leopards


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## Yvonne G (Jan 7, 2011)

This is really a sore spot with an awful lot of tortoise keepers. No matter how the subject comes up in a thread, it gets quite a bit of attention from us. We never seem to get tired of it!


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## sara (Jan 7, 2011)

So many therioes. but what about a desert tortoise? they live in a very dry and warm/hot enviroments. when left alone and not taken into captivity, there shells ( least all the ones i have seen) are smooth. We had one while growing up. she lived in the back yard and ate the weeds and what ever fruit that was on the ground. sometimes she was in the sprinklers and a few times in the summer dad would put down the hose and she would drink her fill. 
She never got any "special" treatment. she grew and was healthy and had a smooth shell. Are there types of torts and turts that are just more prone than others?


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## Yvonne G (Jan 7, 2011)

Hi Sara: Yes there are, however, it mostly happen during the first year of the tortoise's life. And no one really knows much of anything about that first year in wild tortoise babies.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 7, 2011)

sara said:


> So many therioes. but what about a desert tortoise? they live in a very dry and warm/hot enviroments. when left alone and not taken into captivity, there shells ( least all the ones i have seen) are smooth. We had one while growing up. she lived in the back yard and ate the weeds and what ever fruit that was on the ground. sometimes she was in the sprinklers and a few times in the summer dad would put down the hose and she would drink her fill.
> She never got any "special" treatment. she grew and was healthy and had a smooth shell. Are there types of torts and turts that are just more prone than others?



"She" had a 'humid' hide out there someplace sara!

Yvonne we do know the effect of what 'we' do the first year of their life! Good or bad...

Terry K


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## onarock (Jan 7, 2011)

Redfoot NERD said:


> squamata said:
> 
> 
> > onarock said:
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I am serious, are you? You dont know. I dont use it as an excuse. I used it as an example, as a reason people might not keep tortoises "That Hydrated" or "That Humid". However, I did state that the promotion of the extreme conditions "Swamp" is reckless without further study.

I also stated "Nerd" that I dont dispute the results, I only responded to the original poster that there could be some reasons for them not to keep torts as Tom or the Fifes do. Believe it or not some actually test the water before they jump in.

Youve demonstrated once again Nerd that your wrong. Tom keeps his whole room at 80% plus humidity, not because he lives in a dry area (are you serious) but because he feels thats what it takes to get smooth shells. 80% humidity is 80% humidity where ever you are. I cant believe you stated that. If I were to go with that line of thinking I should keep my hatchlings at 100 or 110 percent humidity because its allready 80% or is it the other way around? LOL. 

Natural/Indoor, kind of a contradiction dont you think?



squamata said:


> I find interesting that you have 8 torts raised the same way and half show signs of pyramiding,if you publish this info it will stop all the debate.we just need too determine if what you did do caused the normals too happen or if what you did not do caused the pyramiding.



I too find it interesting. I have some thoughts as to why the two pyramided. How about this, something I have posted in the past. Dr.Peter Liu, a platynota expert, for lack of a better term, stated that he believes roughly 10% of the wild population is pyramid, by his field estimations. That doesnt really mean anything in my group, but its worth noting.


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## Madkins007 (Jan 7, 2011)

moswen said:


> haha, onarock, are you being serious or joking? i guess in humid hawaii you should never have a problem with a pyramided tortoise, but in less-than-humid oklahoma we have to soak our torts daily to give them enough humidity to keep their shells smooth. it isn't completely understood why just yet, but it is pretty much confirmed that smooth shells are a result of high humidity. some of the speculations involve a lack of humidity creating a dry shell that is not lubricated enough to be able to grow out and around, so it grows up instead. instead of increasing the size of the tortoise, which demands more lubrication, it has to grow somewhere, so it grows up, because that size stays relatively the same and only slightly larger with each growth ring. again though, that's not 100% cemented in scientific facts.



Actually, what Fife, Weisner, and Tom showed us is that high humidity can prevent pyramiding all other things being equal. Their research did not address bone density, like Andy Highfield believes, with evidence, is a part of the problem. 

Humidity is important, but not more important than the other elements Maggie, etc. preach. 



squamata said:


> onarock said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe they are still willing to keep their tortoises dry and only soaking 2-3 times a week, because without concrete scientific backing and the assurance that THERE ARE NO BAD SIDE AFFECTS from keeping tortoises "swampy" its not a chance their willing to take.
> ...



I live in Omaha NE and in the winter, our humidity is very low. I do not soak my 4 baby Red-foots (Cherry-heads) torts except about once a month, nor do I do a lot of misting. I DO try to keep the habitat warm and humid with a couple different heating systems and a warmed, dampened substrate. I have several microclimates in there as well.

I avoid too many carbs and calories in their diet and supplement with fiber, calcium and vitamin D. The habitat is big enough that the little guys have lots of room to roam, places they can climb, etc.

So far- smooth growth with even growth rings.

As per the BALANCE theory: bone-healthy diet with UVB, exercise, balanced heat and humidity, and hydration.


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## John (Jan 7, 2011)

onarock said:


> Redfoot NERD said:
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> 
> > squamata said:
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so this is leading too it being genetic?


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## onarock (Jan 7, 2011)

Squamata, my post was only intended to infuse some other thinking in regards to pyramid tortoises in the wild or captivity. Most seem to be under the impression that wild tortoises, other than the ones known to pyramid as part of their genetic makeup, dont pyramid in the wild and that is simply not true. The reason or reasons for platynota pyramiding in the wild is not understood.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 7, 2011)

BTW...While I do advocate the policy of 80% humidity, I keep a humid substrate but do not mist at all. I soak several times a week so they can drink, and keep a moist substrate, I pour water and stir it around with my hand. I do what I was taught years ago and have continued to do so. It may be old fashioned but I have found it works. I am not a fiend about having a humid hide or more than about 80% humidity. If my percentage of humidity falls I don't get all riled up about it, I just don't care that much.

Years ago I was a member of TT and got into a dispute with AH about Sulcata needing humidity to keep from being pyramided. He said they didn't need humidity, I said they did and that part of where they lived was humid. We battled back and forth and I was called rude names by some of the other members and they also said that Sulcata didn't need humidity to prevent pyramiding and there was no humidity where they lived. Anyhow, we went back and forth with me feeling put down and insulted and the end result was that I got banned for life...but right now it is 82 degrees with 73% humidity in the biggest part of their territory...


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## Madkins007 (Jan 7, 2011)

Redfoot NERD said:


> sara said:
> 
> 
> > So many therioes. but what about a desert tortoise? they live in a very dry and warm/hot enviroments. when left alone and not taken into captivity, there shells ( least all the ones i have seen) are smooth. We had one while growing up. she lived in the back yard and ate the weeds and what ever fruit that was on the ground. sometimes she was in the sprinklers and a few times in the summer dad would put down the hose and she would drink her fill.
> ...


You always tell me to document my claims. You'll need to document this one. Andy Highfield documented the conditions in several hides for several torts in his Spain trips and rarely found any that were humid (and even then only after unusually heavy rain for short periods. 

Reports of desert tortoise burrows report that they are sometimes more humid than the surface, but they are nowhere near 'high' humidity. The idea that their urine makes it more humid is interesting but as sandy as the burrows are, the small amount of urine they contain are unlikely to make a big difference- besides, voiding their urine puts them at risk of dehydration.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 7, 2011)

Madkins007 said:


> Redfoot NERD said:
> 
> 
> > sara said:
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Mark, I think that the urine in the burrows thing is more for Sulcata then desert tortoises. I have found that Bob voids daily in his shed and it's a considerable amount. I can see where that would create humidity in a burrow. It feels sorta humid to me in his shed and it's enough to make my eyes water. He drinks daily and urinates every day making me clean it up. Now that it's frozen outside he is contained enough in his shed so I get to see what his output really is.


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## onarock (Jan 7, 2011)

Madkins, well put. This is part of the problem with an unscientific approach and the excuse that there will likely never be a scientific approach is irresponsible. Promoting these theorys as fact intentionally or unintentionally is detramental to the "newbie" that might construde it as fact. And now it appears we have people playing a game of connect the dots using pure speculation as fact. "She had a humid hide out there somewhere" Is that so? Must be, since the humidity theory is no longer a theory and is now proven. A good example of "reaching" or connecting the dots.


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## sara (Jan 7, 2011)

emysemys said:


> Hi Sara: Yes there are, however, it mostly happen during the first year of the tortoise's life. And no one really knows much of anything about that first year in wild tortoise babies.



Hello emysemys'- thank you for the reply. I wish there were more documenteries on this. you see stuff on just about every other animal out there, but never much on tortoise except for sites like this. It would be great if a clutch was filmed in its natural enviroment and followed for the first year. But i guess that would be too costly and hard to follow the little buggers. But it would still be cool!


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 7, 2011)

Are these pyramided? -


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## sara (Jan 7, 2011)

Madkins007 said:


> Redfoot NERD said:
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> > sara said:
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very interresting. it just adds to the mystery. its a crazy thought, but i'll throw it out there cause it makes me very courious. But I know they can slow down the motabolism, so can they controll the humidity they need even with such little moisture? utilitze the smallest amount of urin?
now that i think about it, it is a dumb question. and of course i am thinking about a desert tort not a tropical one.


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## onarock (Jan 7, 2011)

Redfoot, are they? you tell us


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## Becki (Jan 7, 2011)

Back to the original OP... If I can raise a smooth sulcata, why can't they?


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## matt41gb (Jan 7, 2011)

You know, there are tons of posts on here debating why some captive raised tortoises are pyramided. Has anyone ever thought that "stress" could be a contributing factor? Being stressed and coming down from it causes all sorts of health problems in tortoises. I think the majority of tortoise keepers ignore the fact that they're handling a wild animal everyday, thinking that they like being in captivity. Nobody ever thinks that everything to a tortoise stresses it out. For example, handling (to them, they're about to be eaten,) competition at the food bowl, watering hole, ect... When your tortoise has a runny nose, URI, parasites, anorexia, lethargy, stress is always the initial, underlying cause. I definitely think we need to re-evaluate the whole "pyramiding" debate and add stress as a factor. 

We all know that a stressed tortoise will eventually become an ill tortoise. Why can't a stressed tortoise become a pyramided tortoise? 

-Matt

-Matt


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 7, 2011)

matt41gb said:


> You know, there are tons of posts on here debating why some captive raised tortoises are pyramided. Has anyone ever thought that "stress" could be a contributing factor? Being stressed and coming down from it causes all sorts of health problems in tortoises. I think the majority of tortoise keepers ignore the fact that they're handling a wild animal everyday, thinking that they like being in captivity. Nobody ever thinks that everything to a tortoise stresses it out. For example, handling (to them, they're about to be eaten,) competition at the food bowl, watering hole, ect... When your tortoise has a runny nose, URI, parasites, anorexia, lethargy, stress is always the initial, underlying cause. I definitely think we need to re-evaluate the whole "pyramiding" debate and add stress as a factor.
> 
> We all know that a stressed tortoise will eventually become an ill tortoise. Why can't a stressed tortoise become a pyramided tortoise?
> 
> ...



I like your thinking on this Matt. The more I think about it the more I realize that those who raise smooth tortoises often seem to take a very hands-off approach. They soak every once in a while and have the enclosure set up and running "automatically". The tort sees the person when the food comes, but still may not be "handled" for days/weeks on end so maybe it is less stressed. I like this thought, it seems as plausible as any other and it's one thing I haven't heard anyone expressly say before. Thank you.

Once again, since everyone is hypersensitive on any thread that is pyramiding-related, stress could be an important FACTOR, not a end-all be-all of tortoise pyramiding problems.


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## matt41gb (Jan 7, 2011)

PeanutbuttER said:


> matt41gb said:
> 
> 
> > You know, there are tons of posts on here debating why some captive raised tortoises are pyramided. Has anyone ever thought that "stress" could be a contributing factor? Being stressed and coming down from it causes all sorts of health problems in tortoises. I think the majority of tortoise keepers ignore the fact that they're handling a wild animal everyday, thinking that they like being in captivity. Nobody ever thinks that everything to a tortoise stresses it out. For example, handling (to them, they're about to be eaten,) competition at the food bowl, watering hole, ect... When your tortoise has a runny nose, URI, parasites, anorexia, lethargy, stress is always the initial, underlying cause. I definitely think we need to re-evaluate the whole "pyramiding" debate and add stress as a factor.
> ...




Thanks, PeanutbuttER. I was laying in bed brainstorming and it just hit me. Duh!!! Tortoise keeping is really simple. Treat it like a tortoise and it will develop like a tortoise. I always think of Orca whales in captivity. Stress leads to depression, which leads to their dorsal fin falling over. 

Up and down stress levels cause a lot of damage to the body of a tortoise. It could definitely be a cause for pyramiding. 

What if under heavy stress the body stops growing? Now when a tortoise starts feeling safe for a certain amount of time the body returns to normal growth pattern causing rapid bone growth just under the scutes of the carapace. I haven't come across any literature about this being a cause, but I wouldn't ignore it. 

-Matt


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 7, 2011)

I thought the orca fin-sagging problems were a result of their inability in captivity to dive deep enough to experience the requisite pressure to support proper fin growth.

I know a lot of people are jealous of those "numbskulls" that don't pay any attention to their tortoise, yet it somehow is the most wonderful looking tortoise around. I've read a good many somethings to that effect time and time again on this forum. 

I don't know if I fully agree that it plays a significant role yet, but I'm thinking about it. It does make sense to me, but I need to think of more examples both for and against it before I decide where I stand. That said, I think this is definitely a thought worth considering as seriously as any other pyramiding-related factor. 

And if this is the case, tortoise really are much better off without us


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## John (Jan 8, 2011)

onarock said:


> Squamata, my post was only intended to infuse some other thinking in regards to pyramid tortoises in the wild or captivity. Most seem to be under the impression that wild tortoises, other than the ones known to pyramid as part of their genetic makeup, dont pyramid in the wild and that is simply not true. The reason or reasons for platynota pyramiding in the wild is not understood.



I completely understand the point you are trying too make,I'm just trying too drag out what your theory may be for my curiosity.I don't do anything with any of my animals because one person believes it too be good,I like too read all opinions and make my own decisions,its called free thinking.I get your concern that people are too easily led thats why cults are so easy too form.your statement that 8 chelonians you raised excactly the same half showed signs of pyramiding and half did not,but you don't say how they were kept so a newbie not having any other details may conclude that pyramiding is purely genetic. john


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## cdmay (Jan 8, 2011)

[_quote='maggie3fan' pid='205235' dateline='1294456960']
BTW...While I do advocate the policy of 80% humidity, I keep a humid substrate but do not mist at all. I soak several times a week so they can drink, and keep a moist substrate, I pour water and stir it around with my hand. I do what I was taught years ago and have continued to do so. It may be old fashioned but I have found it works. I am not a fiend about having a humid hide or more than about 80% humidity. If my percentage of humidity falls I don't get all riled up about it, I just don't care that much.

Years ago I was a member of TT and got into a dispute with AH about Sulcata needing humidity to keep from being pyramided. He said they didn't need humidity, I said they did and that part of where they lived was humid. We battled back and forth and I was called rude names by some of the other members and they also said that Sulcata didn't need humidity to prevent pyramiding and there was no humidity where they lived. Anyhow, we went back and forth with me feeling put down and insulted and the end result was that I got banned for life...but right now it is 82 degrees with 73% humidity in the biggest part of their territory...
[/quote]_

Those are excellent points maggie3fan. All too many tortoise people, including HRH Highfield, jump to the conclusion that just because a certain tortoise species comes from a dry environment that those animals are constantly bone dry. They are forgetting that the tortoises in these places do not sit out in the open all day but rather, find cover that retains a measure of humidity. In the case of sulcatas they dig burrows that are far higher in humidity than the surround dry scrub (not true desert) that they live in.
Sulcatas are like giant versions of our native gopher tortoises in the south that live almost exclusively in dry sandy habitats. Gopher tortoises even live behind the dune areas of our beaches where the combination of sand, wind and elevation causes the ground to dry out within hours of even the heaviest rains. Yet those tortoises have their burrows to retreat to where the humidity remains quite high. 
Yet we still hear some folks insist that sulcatas live 'in the desert' where there is nothing but sand (one wonders what they would eat if they lived among the barren sand dunes?) sun, and blistering sun.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 8, 2011)

cdmay said:


> [_quote='maggie3fan' pid='205235' dateline='1294456960']
> BTW...While I do advocate the policy of 80% humidity, I keep a humid substrate but do not mist at all. I soak several times a week so they can drink, and keep a moist substrate, I pour water and stir it around with my hand. I do what I was taught years ago and have continued to do so. It may be old fashioned but I have found it works. I am not a fiend about having a humid hide or more than about 80% humidity. If my percentage of humidity falls I don't get all riled up about it, I just don't care that much.
> 
> Years ago I was a member of TT and got into a dispute with AH about Sulcata needing humidity to keep from being pyramided. He said they didn't need humidity, I said they did and that part of where they lived was humid. We battled back and forth and I was called rude names by some of the other members and they also said that Sulcata didn't need humidity to prevent pyramiding and there was no humidity where they lived. Anyhow, we went back and forth with me feeling put down and insulted and the end result was that I got banned for life...but right now it is 82 degrees with 73% humidity in the biggest part of their territory...
> _




Those are excellent points maggie3fan. All too many tortoise people, including HRH Highfield, jump to the conclusion that just because a certain tortoise species comes from a dry environment that those animals are constantly bone dry. They are forgetting that the tortoises in these places do not sit out in the open all day but rather, find cover that retains a measure of humidity. In the case of sulcatas they dig burrows that are far higher in humidity than the surround dry scrub (not true desert) that they live in.
Sulcatas are like giant versions of our native gopher tortoises in the south that live almost exclusively in dry sandy habitats. Gopher tortoises even live behind the dune areas of our beaches where the combination of sand, wind and elevation causes the ground to dry out within hours of even the heaviest rains. Yet those tortoises have their burrows to retreat to where the humidity remains quite high. 
Yet we still hear some folks insist that sulcatas live 'in the desert' where there is nothing but sand (one wonders what they would eat if they lived among the barren sand dunes?) sun, and blistering sun.
[/quote]

Thank you Carl.. maybe they will consider what you ( agreeing with 'us' ) have said!

BTW.. how much do you play with your redfoot tortoises [ from Brazil ]? Probly as much as Tom Mc and Douglas B and Allegra F and Kristina D and Matt W and I etc., etc. play with and handle our redfoots?

Terry K


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## mike1011 (Jan 8, 2011)

Just to throw this out there on the stress thing, years ago I broke my wrist, ring finger and had major lacerations that cut tendons and veins. My nails on that hand stopped growing for several months, when they did start growing in again they came in very bumpy or what we call pyramided. The surgeons said it was the trauma and will eventually grow out and the new will be normal which it did. I googled this once and found that abnormal nail growth can be from diet(not my case) or stress and/or trauma. I dont believe this is the case with torts, just thought it was interesting because the nail is essentially the same as the outer layer of the shell.


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## Marty333 (Jan 8, 2011)

Let my have a try at this 
First off, Terry those tortoises are beautiful!!!!!!!!
Now back on topic. Pyramiding isnt fatal to a tortoise so far it is just a cosmetic thing. Yes it deforms their bones but it can't kill them. My thought is we try to prevent pyramiding because of how it looks and its reputation. Yes horrible pyramiding is bad. Tortoises can still live a happy normal life if they are pyramided. Isnt that the important thing? Shouldnt we care about their happiness instead of trying to constantly perfect their shells? I doubt Sulcatas burrows in the wild reach up to 80% humidity. I think they just file down their shell just like their beak. All that rubbing while they are digging,leaving, or entering the burrow must do something to their shell. Now I am no expert so this probably sounds bogus but its just my thought.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 8, 2011)

*Marty:* First off, Terry those tortoises are beautiful!!!!!!!!
Now back on topic.

They are.. and they are from a small group of Platynota aka Burmese Star [ WC - from a confiscated group in earlier 2000 now residing at Knoxville Zoo ].. and they appear to have varying growth formation don't they?

Not sure if they have produced yet.. I'll have to check with their keeper there. During this particular 'photo-shoot'.. he didn't touch any of the tortoises.

This is 'hide' end of their set-up for the G. elegans aka Indian Star group.. also from a confiscated group from several years back. A number of these are F2 - this is a 5.5 group.. the females are the larger ones







Just showing a couple different species and how they look WC and captive raised. There are a few more if anyone is interested...

Terry K


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## terryo (Jan 8, 2011)

I'm no tortoise expert, but I'll add my 2 cents, for what it's worth. I've never soaked Pio, or handled him....ever. He has a bowel of water if he wants to soak, or drink. He's outside all Summer, with no handling at all. He's very friendly when he see's me come with the food, and will eat out of my hand, but must feel confident that no one is going to pick him up. The only real stress he has is when he come's in for the Winter. I rarely even take pictures of him. Most of the pictures I take of my animals are through the glass or when they are outside. (maybe that's why they're so bad) I DO talk to them all the time, whenever I pass by the vivariums. I don't know if this helped to make him smooth or not. But I really think the stress factor has a lot to do with a tort's health. 
I had a very shy box turtle once that someone gave me, who would go into his shell the minute he saw anyone. After putting him my garden, I never picked him up again. It took him almost two years to stay open when he saw me come with the food. Eventually when I sat there reading a book, he would come to sit near me.


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## cdmay (Jan 8, 2011)

*BTW.. how much do you play with your redfoot tortoises *[ from Brazil ]? 
Terry K 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to play basketball with them.
But even though I'm 6' 3" my tortoises could out jump me and their ball handling skills were much better than mine too, so I quit.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 8, 2011)

Well, I'll just throw this into the mix:

I hatched a little leopard about 5 years ago (3/10/05). Didn't know about humidity at that time and kept him on oat hay pellets (these look just like alfalfa pellets). He was fed a well-balanced diet the first year, then outside in a baby pen to graze from then on. He was kept warm enough, had hiding places, water and wasn't handled. He was not stressed.

He looks like a pineapple.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 8, 2011)

cdmay said:


> *BTW.. how much do you play with your redfoot tortoises *[ from Brazil ]?
> Terry K
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...



Yeah.. I used to attempt "sprints" with them to ensure they [ and I ] got the needed exercise.. which is part of the "balanced" care of course. Ever seen how fast these dudes are when they want to be? Proving once again...... we really don't known what they do when we're not looking!!! - not to mention in the wild Carl.

Your most humble and thankful prote'ge'...

Terry K


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## onarock (Jan 8, 2011)

Redfoot NERD said:


> *Marty:* First off, Terry those tortoises are beautiful!!!!!!!!
> Now back on topic.
> 
> They are.. and they are from a small group of Platynota aka Burmese Star [ WC - from a confiscated group in earlier 2000 now residing at Knoxville Zoo ].. and they appear to have varying growth formation don't they?
> ...



I am



terryo said:


> I'm no tortoise expert, but I'll add my 2 cents, for what it's worth. I've never soaked Pio, or handled him....ever. He has a bowel of water if he wants to soak, or drink. He's outside all Summer, with no handling at all. He's very friendly when he see's me come with the food, and will eat out of my hand, but must feel confident that no one is going to pick him up. The only real stress he has is when he come's in for the Winter. I rarely even take pictures of him. Most of the pictures I take of my animals are through the glass or when they are outside. (maybe that's why they're so bad) I DO talk to them all the time, whenever I pass by the vivariums. I don't know if this helped to make him smooth or not. But I really think the stress factor has a lot to do with a tort's health.
> I had a very shy box turtle once that someone gave me, who would go into his shell the minute he saw anyone. After putting him my garden, I never picked him up again. It took him almost two years to stay open when he saw me come with the food. Eventually when I sat there reading a book, he would come to sit near me.



Love your tortariums, dig your style, you should contribute more.


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## moswen (Jan 8, 2011)

um, i think pretty much almost every person who has responded to this post has mis-interpreted what i wrote, and has found a reason to raise a debate on some obviously sore/touchy hot topics for said persons. 

my origional post was to rant about something that i found disturbing to my own personal view of the world. in my own personal opinion, i have felt feelings of anger that someone would choose to create a tortoise that is so badly pyramided that if it is a female, then she would most likely never be able to be succssfuly mounted by a male and therefore never be able to produce babies. 

and that person had the audacity to call that animal beautiful when her shell was so badly mal-formed. 

i felt as though this person was simply trying to make some money off a poorly shaped creature that was in his/her care, and he/she created the animal to look that way, because he/she just could not bring him/herself to take proper precautions and measurements in regards to keeping the animal in the best way possible. but this is how I FEEL. I DID NOT SAY THAT THIS WAS THE TRUTH ABOUT HOW THIS PERSON FEELS, OR CARES FOR HIS/HER TORTS.

this was the impression i got from the for-sale ad, when i saw it and it was so obviously designed to glorify his/her personal care techniques and hand-selection abilities to produce "beautiful" tortoises on a three year old animal.

i was angered that this person has the ability to use a computer, obviously, since he/she was posting ads online, and did not use the time to research proper care for that species of animal. i was angered that this poor tortosie is going to live this way for the rest of it's life because someone, who obviously considers him/herself capable of raising and selling torts, chose to disregard the circumstantial evidence for over 10 years on how to create a tortoise, shaped the way NATURE intended it to look. 

let's look at it this way:

let's say, your job is to be a contractor. you go to an interview, you're hired, and your job is to bid on how much it is going to cost your company in materials and labor to create what the buyer wants created.

i'm going to assume, that if this is your JOB, you would do some background research? find out how much lumber costs? find out how much your workers are going to charge you per hour? find out how many workers you need? find out how many hours it will take your workers to complete the project?

if you don't do some pre-searching and find these things out, then you are more than likely to not have a job in a very short amount of time. 

would anyone care to dispute this claim?

the same practice that you take in making sure your job with HUMANS goes smoothly and without complaint, i PERSONALLY feel you should do with animals, who have no say in their care or quality of life. 

someone who does not research and do background work and reading on the proper ways to care for an animal, in MY OPINION, should not have one. and, IN MY OPINION, they should not then turn around and SELL these animals, in their horrid conditions, to other consumers. but, as i have stated, this is just MY PERSONAL OPINION.

would you buy a shelf that was bowed? would you buy a house that leaned, at an incredible slant, to the left? would you rent an apartment with no walls? would you buy a car with no shell? (if you're a mechanic, don't answer that lol!)

i should hope that you would say no. if you say yes, i hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you may live in a dr. seuss book. 

the same care that one takes in other day-to-day jobs, one should take where animals are concerned. IN MY OPINION.

this is why I became angry, and why I needed to vent my frustration to a forum that has general understanding of love and compassion for the same animals that i do. 

i did not start this post so that everyone could hash out their own personal sore spots with who has a pyramided tort and who believes in a swamp theory and who doesn't think that 10 years worth of circumstantial evidence is enough to make a believer in a theory about how to keep your torts in the best possible way. i didn't start it so that people could come in and claim that "high humidity" is not the ONLY way to keep an animal healthy. i know the other ways to keep an animal healthy. the whole reason i felt anger in the first place did NOT have to do with this tortoise's diet, so why would i mention it? my problem was with the pyramided animal, which OBVIOUSLY needed some WATER.

this post was not posted to the debatable section. if you have a debate that you would like to persue in this regard, please create your own post in the proper section, without stealing mine. if you don't mind. 

i was simply trying to vent, i hoped that that would be understood with my opening paragraph and my ending statement. 







Shelly said:


> moswen said:
> 
> 
> > we have to soak our torts daily to give them enough humidity to keep their shells smooth.
> ...




and i do so graciously apologize for mis-wording my post. i pour water on their substrate to give them enough humidity in their enclosure, and i soak them in the morning to give them a jump-start warm up and to allow them to soak in 100% humidity (water) for 15-20 minutes and to drink if necessary.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 8, 2011)

Hi Rebekah:

Well, I didn't know about the humidity theory until last year. By then I already had 4 pineapples that are beyond making smooth, and yet they are still babies.

I didn't see the ad you're referring to, but if it was an adult or anything older than 3 or 4 years, then those people didn't know about humidity either. 

You're just going to have to cut them a little slack. This is a really new concept.


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