# Window of opportunity



## Anyfoot (Sep 1, 2016)

One of my females(the only one I've managed to get fertile eggs from) has just laid a clutch of 10. All perfectly formed and of decent size. 
So I've dug them up and placed them in a hole in front of the window.
I've dug a nest the same depth as she did, which was only about 6" deep and I've filled it with the soil that she had covered her own nest with, this soil was super fine so thought it best to use that. 
I'll cover the window where the eggs are with something to stop the light getting in but so I can easily have a peep closer to the time. 
You can only see 5 of the eggs in the window, the other 5 are at the back, all 10 eggs are touching each other and I did not rotate them. 
She laid them about 18" away from the new nest site. 
I probed this area at 6" deep before and it was 28.5°c /83.3f, I'll do it again in a few days when temps are stable in the soil again. 
Let's see what happens.


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## wellington (Sep 1, 2016)

Good luck. Keep this one updated please. Love the placement of the eggs


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## Anyfoot (Sep 1, 2016)

wellington said:


> Good luck. Keep this one updated please. Love the placement of the eggs


I'll update Wellington. 
When it gets closer to the time I need to block it off somehow so if any hatchlings do rise to the surface they are separated from the adults. Thinking up to 120days should be safe. 
I don't know but I've often wondered if an adult would try and eat a soft hatchling.


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## juli11 (Sep 1, 2016)

Cool idea! Let's see what happens!


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## wellington (Sep 1, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> I'll update Wellington.
> When it gets closer to the time I need to block it off somehow so if any hatchlings do rise to the surface they are separated from the adults. Thinking up to 120days should be safe.
> I don't know but I've often wondered if an adult would try and eat a soft hatchling.


Opportunist. So probably. However, when I have showed my leopards their baby, they just sniffed her and went on their way. Of course this wasn't right after hatching and she was hatched in an incubator and they are weed eaters more then the RF.


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## tortoise5643 (Sep 1, 2016)

Best of luck to you!


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## dmmj (Sep 1, 2016)

Any particular reason why you don't incubate?


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## tortoise5643 (Sep 1, 2016)

dmmj said:


> Any particular reason why you don't incubate?


I was wondering the same thing. Although I guess technically this IS a form of incubation just not what most of us think of it.


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## Anyfoot (Sep 1, 2016)

dmmj said:


> Any particular reason why you don't incubate?


Just too see if we can learn anything new. 
Also I like messing around . 
IF any hatch I'll try and time laps them rising to the surface. 
How long do they take to get to the surface, hrs or days?
Will I have to mist/rain this area to trigger the ascend? Dont forget in an incubator soon as they pip they have no option but come out of the egg, they are already vulnerable to the outside world. Do they really all pip the same time, or do they pip and wait for a signal. 
What happens to hatchling that has 1 or 2 unhatched eggs above it, does it break those eggs trying to get out even if they are fertile? 
Many questions in my head. 
Guess I'll not be happy until I see with my own eyes what happens. It would be criminal not to share with everyone, plus there are members on here that will read more into the happenings than I do. 
I've read on a few occasions some members say that the nests they've missed and hatch naturally seem to produce weaker neonates. The few hatchlings I've hatched have been little fatties. Does this mean the natural weak neonates were sat there waiting for the siignal to ascend, but when a signal never came it got to the point they had to rise anyway. They had absorbed all the fat supply up so to live it was a must get out situation. 
Hope we learn something.


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## Anyfoot (Sep 4, 2016)

I've just checked humidity and temps everywhere in this area, 
Air temp is 29.5°c/85.1f. 
Air humidity is 95%+. 
Soil temp 6" down near eggs is 28.6°c/83.5f.
Soil humidity is 99%(off the scale), and I haven't used the misting system for about a wk at least. 

These are the gadgets I've used. Maybe some are not the most professional, but all read within each other very closely. I got 0.2°c/0.36F difference in soil temps with the different types of instruments used for that.


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## Anyfoot (Sep 4, 2016)

When/if it gets to hatching stage, I think I'll Poor's some water over this area with no noise, not sprinkle it like rain. If this causes them to rise to the surface then it must be because of higher humidity and moisture levels rising, if they don't rise then I'll sprinkle/mist on it to see if they rise, if they do it could be the noise of rain (pitter patter) that's causing it. 
Well that's the plan.


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## Anyfoot (Sep 14, 2016)

Well, if it's going to happen it will happen to me, guaranteed, 1st dilemma of the observation experiment, Beatrice has decided to dig a nest directly above the eggs I placed there, what's the chances of that. Now what, do I leave her to it and what will be will be. 

Btw, the eggs are not open to the light I've removed my hi-tech cover(watering can) so you can see what's going on.


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## Anyfoot (Sep 14, 2016)

Luckily she was a couple of inches away from the other clutch. She laid a clutch of 4 but with my heavy hand I broke 1. Sigh.


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## klawran1 (Sep 20, 2016)

I love the egg placement!


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## Anyfoot (Mar 23, 2017)

Ok, need some opinions, it's been 204 days since I put these 10 eggs behind the window. At around 100 days 2 eggs blew. I got these out. Is it time to dig the remaining 8 eggs out or is there still a chance they may hatch. 
Bare in mind temperatures did drop during the winter to 75f/ 24°c at times during the night.


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## Markw84 (Mar 23, 2017)

Anyfoot said:


> Ok, need some opinions, it's been 204 days since I put these 10 eggs behind the window. At around 100 days 2 eggs blew. I got these out. Is it time to dig the remaining 8 eggs out or is there still a chance they may hatch.
> Bare in mind temperatures did drop during the winter to 75f/ 24°c at times during the night.


First time I've seen this thread. My first impression when I started reading and saw how you buried them, was that there was no egg chamber with air around the eggs. Every good nest I have seen is dug and a chamber is created. The eggs inside are all touching, but no dirt falls in around the eggs and the chamber is plugged with a wet plug of mud the female makes keeping the chamber "open" around the eggs. It seems to me the eggs would suffocate if not surrounded by air.


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## Anyfoot (Mar 23, 2017)

Markw84 said:


> First time I've seen this thread. My first impression when I started reading and saw how you buried them, was that there was no egg chamber with air around the eggs. Every good nest I have seen is dug and a chamber is created. The eggs inside are all touching, but no dirt falls in around the eggs and the chamber is plugged with a wet plug of mud the female makes keeping the chamber "open" around the eggs. It seems to me the eggs would suffocate if not surrounded by air.


I assume this is all species. I've not noticed this, infact I'm thinking the opposite, when I go to retrieve eggs they seem very compact with wet(urine) soil. 
I shall take more notice for this when the next female lays. Thanks Mark.


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## Markw84 (Mar 23, 2017)

Anyfoot said:


> I assume this is all species. I've not noticed this, infact I'm thinking the opposite, when I go to retrieve eggs they seem very compact with wet(urine) soil.
> I shall take more notice for this when the next female lays. Thanks Mark.


Not sure if this is true for all species. For example, I don't believe sea turtles create an open nest chamber, but are nesting in almost pure sand that does not compact as dense. I have not seen sand filling completely around all eggs, though. I think there is still voids between eggs of open air. I think in captivity, when we make areas "easy" for females to nest, we often create soil/substrate that does not compact well and falls in. That is fine for the ease of nest building if we dig up and incubate, but does not allow for the flask shaped chamber to be formed as I believe is necessary for natural incubation. Every nest I have investigated, from tortoise to aquatic turtle, had distinct voids between eggs.


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 23, 2017)

Anyfoot said:


> I'll update Wellington.
> When it gets closer to the time I need to block it off somehow so if any hatchlings do rise to the surface they are separated from the adults. Thinking up to 120days should be safe.
> I don't know but I've often wondered if an adult would try and eat a soft hatchling.




I've only had eggs a couple of times, so I really don't know much about tortoises, BUT; a friend of mine outside of Phoenix bred Leopards, Sulcata and Redfoots I think. Anyway, what he did was to put an old bottomless bird cage over the nest so if somebody dug out they couldn't escape, That way their light and weather are natural, but they won't go on a walkabout. Just a idea.


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## Anyfoot (Mar 24, 2017)

Think I'm going to dig these up tonight after work. One of my females is getting ready to lay so I'll start again with those eggs, this time I'll create a cavity in the ground for air.
I'll also put a cage around the top right from the off as you suggest Maggie, because I think the adults have compacted this area above the eggs anyway. 
Suppose I could do the same experiment in a fish tank really. 
I want to see how long it is from pipping to breaking the surface is.
Also if there is a difference on the scute joints with them being under the ground for xxx amount of time in super humid conditions. 
Do they sit in the egg waiting for all the clutch to hatch. 
Do they absorb the sack then rise to surface or rise as they absorb the sack, I would have thought absorb first or it could be punctured. 
Can I induce the hatching with rain. 

I've found out females will dig nest up to lay there own eggs. That's happened twice to me. On one occasion 2 females laid in the exact same spot on the same day, surely the 2nd female could smell the scent of the first female. 

Oh well, if you do not succeed the first time, try and try again.


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## ZEROPILOT (Mar 24, 2017)

Very interesting, Craig.
Of the dozens of Redfoot eggs I've excavated, it seems to me that they always touched one another. But also that they were packed by soil. No pocket of air. In fact the soil was always wet or damp and packed in all around the eggs so that when an egg was removed, a perfect indentation in the shape of that egg was left.
Maybe in my soil then eggs left in my pen would fail? Maybe. It's all pretty interesting.
The eggs touching thing seems like it might be valid. Because my incubator with eggs not touching is hatching babies laid the same day, weeks apart.


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## Anyfoot (Mar 24, 2017)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Very interesting, Craig.
> Of the dozens of Redfoot eggs I've excavated, it seems to me that they always touched one another. But also that they were packed by soil. No pocket of air. In fact the soil was always wet or damp and packed in all around the eggs so that when an egg was removed, a perfect indentation in the shape of that egg was left.
> Maybe in my soil then eggs left in my pen would fail? Maybe. It's all pretty interesting.
> The eggs touching thing seems like it might be valid. Because my incubator with eggs not touching is hatching babies laid the same day, weeks apart.


 Your discription of the eggs in ground is exactly as I see mine. I have to dig around the nest so not to break them when I pull them from the mud, the suction created with the egg sat in a perfect wet indentation is very strong if you just try to pull the eggs in an upward motion. Maybe my substrate is too hard so they have to urinate a lot so excavation is easier, a bi-product of that results in a compact nest, maybe all eggs in my ground will be duds through lack of air flow. 
I have top soil for substrate, do I need to add sand to break it up and stop compaction of the substrate. Thoughts anyone.


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## ZEROPILOT (Mar 24, 2017)

My outdoor substrate is a fine compost and dark, rich soil from a decade or more of decomposing mulch,etc.
Covered by fresh mulch.
Just what I would imagine a forest floor would look like.
Minus leaves.


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## Anyfoot (Mar 24, 2017)

Just dug the eggs up and opened them up. No babies, but I think they were potentially fertile originally. Most had something in them that could only be described as masses of white jelly, some looked like they had veins in them and a couple were just runny liquid like you would expect from duds. 
The stench was off the scale, and the adults were trying to eat them. 
So from this experience I would say air flow is crucial for development as you suggest Mark. 
What is confusing me is i put 10 eggs in there, 2 blew up a while back and I've just got 9 out .


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## Anyfoot (Apr 3, 2017)

Markw84 said:


> First time I've seen this thread. My first impression when I started reading and saw how you buried them, was that there was no egg chamber with air around the eggs. Every good nest I have seen is dug and a chamber is created. The eggs inside are all touching, but no dirt falls in around the eggs and the chamber is plugged with a wet plug of mud the female makes keeping the chamber "open" around the eggs. It seems to me the eggs would suffocate if not surrounded by air.


 Just dug a clutch of 9 up. It was quite obvious there is a chamber in there.


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