# Closed "Chambers"



## Tom

Been meaning to do this one for a while now...

Over the years I have kept a lot of reptiles in a lot of different ways. I've learned a lot of stuff about a lot of species. Since finding and joining this forum almost two years ago, I've learned a TON more. Now I'm not just stumbling around alone in the dark. Now, with the help of all the fantastic TFO members, I can see and experience everyone else's enclosures and styles too.

There are a lot of good ways to house a tortoise indoors. Tank, tub, trough, table, and... closed chamber. Different methods work best for the various species and ages. Through all of my "experiments" and sharing the vast experience of others here on the forum, I have reached my current conclusion that "closed chambers", with a basking lamp inside, are the best means of housing the babies of most species. Everyone's situation is different, and we all live in different climates... heck our torts are all from different climates too. Still, overall, I have personally experienced the best results and seen the best results from others, in this style of enclosure. Several people come to mind, but Tyler, Neal, Kristina and KBaker, have especially shown their enclosures and the results. There are lots of others too, but these members have had the biggest influence on me recently.

Only in a closed chamber can I control the humidity properly. Its very dry where I live, and its a constant battle to maintain any humidity at all in most enclosures. In a closed chamber, its a piece of cake. I've used glass tanks and various styles of tortoise tables for years to house my chelonians, but the open tops let out all that beneficial humidity and heat. By putting my heat lamps and CHEs INSIDE the closed enclosure, they do NOT dry things out AND they use a lot less power to give me the same amount of heat. Plus, once they heat everything up and the thermostat kicks them off, the heat just stays in there. I'm using less electricity on my 4x8' closed chamber than I am on my 40 gallon open topped glass tank! (I have little electric meters called "Kill-A-Watt EZ"). The humidity is lower directly under the heat lamp, but its as high as I want to keep it all around that area and the rest of the enclosure.










In theory this all sounds reasonable, but what happens in the real world? I've gotten the best results I've ever gotten in this type of enclosure. On a lot of my glass tanks I end up covering as much of the top as I can. It seems like the more and better I cover them, the better the results I get. But I still lose all my heat and humidity out of the hole that has to be there for my light fixtures. Like this one:





This leads me to a big problem that has come up recently with several potential new tortoise keepers. Where does one go buy a "closed tortoise chamber" for their new pet? Most conventional enclosures are too shallow to have a closed top and still allow enough room for a hanging fixture with a hot bulb in it. I like the Vision tubs, but they are too short for this purpose. My leopard enclosure is 24" tall and that just barely accommodates things safely. When I build the next one it will be around 30" tall. I have not seen a pre-made enclosure with the right dimensions. Tyler showed me this one that he is using. I can't remember which species he is housing in this.





Remember we are talking about housing babies. Not adults or even juveniles. Discussion is welcome here. I'm always wanting to learn more.


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## Yvonne G

Oh, Tom...I'm crushed! You neglected to mention my very cheap and easy "closed chamber" idea. I've mentioned it many times here on the forum and it works quite well...but its not very pretty.

I take two long sheets of aluminum foil (the kind you cook with) and I lay them side-by-side. Then I fold together the long edge of both, making one big sheet. Then I make a cover over the whole habitat including the light fixtures, similar to, but not as pretty, as Tyler's.


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## JeffG

Tom, I'm pretty sure you have said in the past that you don't use UVB lighting for your babies because you get them outside so much. The problem I have is that I can't get mine outside every day, so I feel that it is best to provide them with UVB light. I am currently using a 100 watt Powersun MVB (the smallest wattage it comes in), and it gives off so much heat that if I have it the proper distance from the surface and enclosed my entire table, it would quickly heat the whole thing up to well over 110 degrees.

Do you Have any suggestions? Would it be better to replace the MVB with a lower wattage heat bulb so that I can enclose the entire table even though I only get my torts outside twice a week right now? Or do you think it is better to continue as I am with as much of my table covered as possible. My little guys do seem to spend lots of time in their humid hide which is generally around 70% humidity.


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## Tom

So sorry Yvonne. I forgot about your fantastical tinfoil creations, but I give you FULL credit for coming up with the concept. When I said that several people come to mind, you were most definitely one of them.


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## Yvonne G

Well, ok then. My feathers have gone back smooth.


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## AnthonyC

I'm not going to debate what is the right way or wrong way to house hatchling tortoises. Admittedly, I'm just a rookie when it comes to tortoise husbandry. What I will say is that it really shows just how much TFO members LOVE their tortoises, and how passionate they are when it comes to their welfare. This all becomes evident when I see the time, equity, and dedication that owners have put into their enclosures. I do have to ask... Is that enclosure patented, Tom??  I would LOVE to see the blue prints for that palace!


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## Kristina

I use lower wattage heat lamps, place them right in the glass aquarium, and use a plexiglass cover to seal in the humidity. I have not had any issues with mold, shell rot, or "lack of air-flow."

My Sulcatas, Redfoot (now yearling,) and Star hatchlings have been kept this way from day one and have grown smooth. I started my Greek (yearling now also) in a a sweater box with a humid hide, and she started to pyramid. It isn't bad, but it makes me feel like a failure.

Here are some pics of my aquariums.

As you can see in this one, the heat lamps are right down in the enclosure. The one over the water dish turns it into a little "sauna" and the smaller, darker of the two babies loves to lay in it. She will put her little head on the rim and go to sleep there.











Here are the babies. They are bigger now (WAAAAAAYYYY past time to update pictures!)






Here is where I kept my first Star before summer hit. You can see again the heat source is right down in there. In this case it is a 60 watt black light bulb (both this enclosure and the one above have these as a heat source with an additional florescent for light.)






Here is the result...






Next is my little Redfoot. This one started out in an old Metaframe slate bottom aquarium. The hood for the tank has two incandescent sockets, which hold compact florescents, and the other hanging down is a 60 watt black light bulb.






Having that set up made this...


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## JeffG

Thanks for taking the time to post that Kristina. Can I ask what is the size of the glass aquariums in the pictures? I am a bit limited on indoor space temporarily, so I am very interested in knowing what sizes have worked for other people. I have tons of space outside once they are big enough to be out there full time, but while they need to be inside part-time, it is a bit of a challenge.


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## Kristina

I use several different sizes. Last winter I used mostly 20 gallons (24" x 12" x 16".) This year, I have two 15 gallon longs (same footprint as the 20s, just not as tall.) One will be for my Greek yearling, the other is for my two little Stars. For my Redfoot (who is around 4") I have a 20 gallon long (30" x 12" x 12".) The "Three Amigos" (Dee, Dusty, and Devon, Sulcata hatchlings produced by Tom) have a 27 gallon long (36" x 12Â½" x 13") and the two slightly older Sulcatas (Kasey and Kendall, just over 4") share a 55 gallon (48" x 12Â½" x 21".) For my four yearling Manouria I have a 90 gallon (48" x 24" x 17".)

Now, please understand, I am well aware of the fact that all of these tortoises are going to at one point outgrow their enclosures. None of these are meant to last longer than a single winter. I have a storage building that is PACKED with tanks. I have tanks from 220 gallons on down. Once these tortoises move past the "baby" stage, they won't be housed in aquariums at all. I utilize very large tables for my adult tortoises. 

I have two racks that hold the tanks. One I purchased from Home Depot, and the other I built myself.


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## terryo

I've been doing this with my boxie's for thirty years Tom, and with Pio and Solo since they were both hatchlings, with great results. Nothing new here for me..........


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## JeffG

Lol! No judging going on here at all. There is a HUGE difference between what is required temporarily for tiny little hatchlings, and full grown torts of any species. I appreciate your input.

I am in the situation where I have plenty of room for adult tortoises that can thrive outdoors in the Arizona climate, but I have to make the best possible use of my limited indoor space while they are still too fragile to deal with the summer heat and winter cold.

I wish I could give my four little guys a 10' x 20' indoor enclosure until they can live outside 24/7, but I don't have the space to do that, so I want to make sure I give them the absolute best I can for the time they are inside.

Sorry to get off topic from Tom's original post, but I know his main concern is to help as many people as possible, and I think this stuff may be useful to people too.


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## CtTortoiseMom

I love the enclosures that have the plant's growing!! I tried in Chewy's Viv and I did get a tiny bit of grass but as soon as it sprouted it would turn brown and die. I am seriously thinking about taking some sort of gardening class I have the blackest thumb!!

Tom, having 91% humidity directly under my basking light is just a dream for me in Chewy's enclosure!! The highest the humidity has ever been after a soaking is 80% and that only last's a couple of hours!


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## Cloud 9

Kristina said:


> Having that set up made this...



:O, that's a red foot? whoa...


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## Maggie Cummings

I am crushed that you would leave me out when you are naming names. I guess it's my lack of experience...






Or maybe it's my lack of enclosures...






this one has 2 lids on top






you can have one lid open, or 2






I guess it means nothing that hatchlings are my specialty or that I raise them in many different types of enclosures.


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## ascott

Maggie, I love your enclosure...seeing these fun enclosures make me think, "wow, if I had to do a set up for a hatchling these are what I would use, fricken awesome"


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## pandacakes

I don't have any ideas, but those are some beautiful babies!


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## Balboa

Hey Tom,
To beat a dead horse, you know I'm with you on this one. I've said time and again to people, that traditional methods and knowledge on tortoisekeeping defy physics, and you can't just go out and buy a suitable tort enclosure, it must be built.

1st. From what I've seen, it takes very little opening in an enclosure to create dramatic air flow. Did the "open air" enclosure craze have any genuine experimental impetus, or was it just the latest untried fad? I know I bought into it, because that's what all the "reptile experts" suggested, until I discovered it didn't work.

2nd. Safely heating the enclosure is a real concern. At this time I'm using a CHE mounted in a old-fashioned porcelain, electrical box mounted fixture mounted to a plywood lid for heating my hatchling leos. It works, but is it really "safe", up to code, etc? Its definately not UL listed so I have a hard time suggesting to folks to do this, though common sense tells me its far safer than trying to "make do" with commonly available pet shop solutions.


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## Kristina

Cloud 9 said:


> Kristina said:
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Click to expand...


Yes, it is  That is my little Black Cherry. She was produced by Redfoot NERD (Terry Kilgore, www.turtletary.com ) I had to have her the moment I saw her because she is just so unusual. Terry has produced a few more of the "black" ones since this one, but she was the first and also the blackest.




JeffG said:


> I wish I could give my four little guys a 10' x 20' indoor enclosure until they can live outside 24/7, but I don't have the space to do that, so I want to make sure I give them the absolute best I can for the time they are inside.



Actually, you don't, lol. It would be a NIGHTMARE to heat something that size and keep it humid, lol.

My opinion is that the young babies hide so much anyway, that they don't need as large of an enclosure as a juvenile. Until they reach the size where they feel more "predator proof" it is okay to use a smaller enclosure. For many however, it is just cheaper and easier to start out with the size that you are eventually going to need, rather than doing upgrades and having to keep buying new equipment. I already have all this crap so it is a lot easier for me, lol.

As far as keeping them outside... You could do something like this...


























It has a lid, too. The lid is hinged, just a wooden frame with more of the wire in it. That is where the "Three Amigos" have stayed since they came to live with me


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## Yvonne G

My, my, my...so easy to get our feathers ruffled, huh Maggie?  In Tom's defense, this is a thread about closed chambers, and I really don't think you've ever posted pictures of THAT tort table before. I like that one.


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## kbaker

maggie3fan said:


> I guess it means nothing that hatchlings are my specialty or that I raise them in many different types of enclosures.



Blah, Blah , Blah J.K.

I do like your enclosures a lot. They have great lids. Easy access and the lights are secure. Sometimes people sacrifice function and what is good for a tortoise for a more finished look. It's nice to have both, but the tortoise comes first.

Great job, maggie3fan!


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## terryo

(Today 01:51 PM)maggie3fan Wrote: 
I guess it means nothing that hatchlings are my specialty or that I raise them in many different types of enclosures.


Don't feel bad Maggie...he left me out too, and I've been bashed around for having this type of enclosure for years. But, I don't care....I'm just glad that everyone finally saw the light! Maybe I should have posted some pictures of Pio and Solo for effect too


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## Yvonne G

maggie3fan said:


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This is just the cutest picture ever. Did he do that himself or did you pose him?


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## Maggie Cummings

emysemys said:


> maggie3fan said:
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Click to expand...


He did that himself and stayed that way for several hours. He actually napped that way. I thought it was cute too...


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## terryo

That picture should be the advertisement for that hidey box. Precious!!


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## Tom

Good lord! I can't remember every person every time. I love you all, and really appreciate all the feed back on this topic. Maggie and TerryO, you are both fine tortoise keepers who produce great results. I've said so publicly many times. And Yvonne is right, I have never seen those enclosure pics Maggie. TerryO, you should have been on that list because Pio is one of my favorite examples of tortoise perfection AND I have seen your enclosure pics. 

Kristina, you make some really good points about enclosure size.
Balboa, two very good points. I've had some close calls with heat lamps and CHE's in the past, and sometimes I forget to emphasize using extreme caution with our enclosures.

Jeff, I typed up a response to your question yesterday, but it seems to have not posted for some reason. Two things: 1. In my opinion, if your torts get sun for an hour twice a week, that is enough. More is better, but two hours is enough for D3 synthesis in my experience. Especially if you will be able to do this all winter long too. Nowadays, I usually switch to MVBs in the winter, just to be safe. Sometimes I go a stretch of two weeks with no sun in the winter. Some keepers (notably Kristina, who I respect very much as a keeper) give their torts lots of sun all summer, but due to climate have to keep them indoors for several months out of every year. Kristina uses no UV lamps ever, and has very healthy torts. I think you'd be fine with a regular 50 watt incandescent flood. The other option would be to make the enclosure taller and bigger, so the 100 watt MVB will work. Thing 2: How are you measuring humidity in your hides? Even with my room humidity hovering around 50%, my humid hides are always in the high 90s percentage-wise. It seems like either your hides are too open somehow, to dry inside to begin with, or your measuring device is off. I've had all three of the above at times.


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## terryo

OK you're forgiven Tom.


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## JeffG

I keep a hydrometer? in the hide. The humidity is higher at times, but is usually 65-80% in the morning when I check. You have to remember, the ambient humidity here in the Arizona desert is often in single digits.

I will work to get the humidity up, but it won't be easy. I deliberately chose species that come from dry areas because of the climate I live in. I just didn't realize at the time that hatchlings/babies need such high humidity. I do soak them EVERY day for 30-45 minutes. I also spray them a lot. I get them outside as much as possible, so If I can get their humidity up, I think things will be as good as possible. 

These little guys are a royal pain in the butt, and I love every minute of caring for them. They are definitely more work than the lizards I have been keeping for years though!


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## jackmac

Tom,
Curious if you had any problems dealing with poor air circulation since it was an enclosed chamber. Also do you have vent holes by the side of the enclosure, can't really see from the pics. Thank you.
Jack


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## Tom

JeffG said:


> These little guys are a royal pain in the butt, and I love every minute of caring for them. They are definitely more work than the lizards I have been keeping for years though!



Hahahaha! That's because you picked the best/easiest species of lizard in the world to work with!

Show us a pic of your humid hide. Maybe we can come up with some tips that would help you and others.



jackmac said:


> Tom,
> Curious if you had any problems dealing with poor air circulation since it was an enclosed chamber. Also do you have vent holes by the side of the enclosure, can't really see from the pics. Thank you.
> Jack



None of them are "airtight", but I have no intentional "vent" holes. I find that vents just let my warm humid air out. I have never had any problems with mold or of fungus of any sort. That might be because it is SOOOOO dry here. Single digit humidity most of the year. Maybe in other areas, some vent holes would be necessary. I don't think that if I lived in Southern FL, I would think enclosures of this type were so important or necessary. But here in the CA desert or in AZ or in most heated and air conditioned homes in most of the country, I think this type of enclosure is the best way to go. I just wish it were easier for people to just go out and buy what they need. As it stands now, each of these needs to be "hand-crafted" to a degree.


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## Kristina

(Thanks for the compliment, Tom!)

Tom is right, I use no UV lighting at all. My personal opinion on UV bulbs is that the coil bulbs are dangerous, the tube bulbs are worthless junk designed to get you to spend your money, and the MVBs do work well but are unnecessary as long as your tortoise gets some outside time, and a PROPER DIET. Diet is a BIG part of going UV-less, one that is often over looked. 

For example, I got my little Greek 8/14/10. She could sit on a quarter and weighed 8 grams, and was 5 weeks old.






She lived the entire first 9 months of her life inside, no sunlight, and no artifical UV.

This picture was taken in early spring, before they went outside to live for the summer.






She at that time weighed close to 60 grams. Hard as a rock, growing, and healthy. I attribute her health to having a healthy, balanced diet.

As far as the question of air flow in closed chambers, I mentioned earlier myself that this has not been a problem for me either. I have no issues with mold, fungus, shell rot, respiratory issues, etc. None of mine are "air-tight" either, but I don't have vents. Any deliberate vent holes allow the humidity to evaporate. All of my enclosures are also opened at least once a day for feeding/spraying. That does allow for some air exchange.


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## kbaker

Tom said:


> jackmac said:
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> Curious if you had any problems dealing with poor air circulation since it was an enclosed chamber. Also do you have vent holes by the side of the enclosure, can't really see from the pics. Thank you.
> Jack
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> None of them are "airtight", but I have no intentional "vent" holes. I find that vents just let my warm humid air out. I have never had any problems with mold or of fungus of any sort. That might be because it is SOOOOO dry here. Single digit humidity most of the year. Maybe in other areas, some vent holes would be necessary. I don't think that if I lived in Southern FL, I would think enclosures of this type were so important or necessary. But here in the CA desert or in AZ or in most heated and air conditioned homes in most of the country, I think this type of enclosure is the best way to go. I just wish it were easier for people to just go out and buy what they need. As it stands now, each of these needs to be "hand-crafted" to a degree.
Click to expand...


I agree with Tom...it all depends on the humidity of where you are at. You will always need to adjust as you go to 'dial in' your set up and never assume you are good when there are changing variables.

I don't think an actual air tight cage is good. I would think it would be uncomfortable for the tortoise when opening and closing the cage, too.

"dealing with poor air circulation"
Poor air circulation is really too much air flow. You want to avoid moving air. If you find the desire to vent your cage, I would suggest putting a small vent(s) torwards the bottom of the cage (heat rises and that air movement is what takes the moister out of the cage). Like Kristina said...just opening and closing the cage daily should be enough.

I recently put these four cages together. I never liked using rubbermaid-like containers, but I found these containers at Home Depot for $10 a piece. One concern is insulation and so far these are not doing too bad at holding heat in (We will see when winter gets here). I had the ceramic light fixtures and spent $1.14 each for the cords. The lids come off easy, they stack to save space (even with the cords and lights) and the best part is the door opens well and you have plenty of room to reach in, move turtle/tortoises in & out, clean, move the water/food bowls in & out...they have worked out great. The bedding is deep enough so the tappered front does not affect floor space. I did not put in any venting and it holds humidity really well.








OK - one complaint. Why can't they use stickers that come off???


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## Sky2Mina

@kbaker - how exactly do you use these as enclosures? Share to show their 'insides'? 

Interesting thread!


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## jackmac

Hey Tom,
I just pulled the trigger! Getting a custom torotise enclosure made, it will be ready in a week. I was debating at first whether to get a fish tank or a waterland tub, but after reading your post, the answer is clear. 
Jack


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## Tom

jackmac said:


> Hey Tom,
> I just pulled the trigger! Getting a custom torotise enclosure made, it will be ready in a week. I was debating at first whether to get a fish tank or a waterland tub, but after reading your post, the answer is clear.
> Jack



Show us pics once you get it. Due to the potential difficulty in designing and building this type of enclosure, we could all use some more examples and inspiration.

I saw one at the reptile show this weekend that was inspiring. I failed to get a pic though...


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## Kristina

kbaker said:


> OK - one complaint. Why can't they use stickers that come off???



WD40


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## kbaker

Sky2Mina said:


> @kbaker - how exactly do you use these as enclosures? Share to show their 'insides'?
> 
> Interesting thread!



I am not sure what you are really asking here. You use them like any other cage...set up with correct temps, add bedding, add water and add turtle/tortoise.

Right now I have a female Ornate box turtle quaritined in one. My redfoots are in my Sulcata hatchling cage so I will be putting the Sulcata hatchlings in them when they start hatching again. I have my ornate box turtle hatchlings in a five gallon now, but once they start eating more regularly, I will move them into one of them.


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## Yvonne G

I think she meant can we see inside one to see how they look?


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## dmarcus

I would like to see what they look like inside also, the photo's make them look small and I assume they are not.


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## blafiriravt

Wow, Tom. Really cool enclosure. I am a super noob lol. But one thing I have picked up in the past couple of days, is different species have way different requirements. The issue is, as you stated, where people live. Here in Vermont, humidity is actually a huge pain the butt for me, especially trying to incorporate an outside enclosure. It is not uncommon for me to see days with 50 percent or greater. I have lived on TFO for the past two and half days, and it's hard to find two different people living in two different locations with the same breed of tort who would recommend a really good baseline substrate or enclosure setup. For instance, i was looking up substrates for Golden Greeks yesterday. One person highly recommend Aspen bedding, SWORE by it, and another would "highly suggest" a 25/75 top soil/cypress mix. Here in VT, that soil/cypress mix would create tortoise soup in a week. Down south,and out west, it works really well, because it's warmer and dryer, and controlling humidity is a bit easier using those substrates. To make a long story short, I thank you for posting threads like these, because it REALLY helps the super noobs such as myself. Being able to take a peek at some home made enclosures specifically made for the type of environment they are living in, is insanely helpful to me. Sorry for the blabbing.


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## Sky2Mina

@Kbaker - Yes, It's like Yvonne and Dalano said - I just wonder how you put lights or other equipment and also that you're not able to "look inside" (because they're closed, no glass/plexiglass wall) so I'm not quite sure how it works with these.


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## Tom

blafiriravt said:


> Wow, Tom. Really cool enclosure. I am a super noob lol. But one thing I have picked up in the past couple of days, is different species have way different requirements. The issue is, as you stated, where people live. Here in Vermont, humidity is actually a huge pain the butt for me, especially trying to incorporate an outside enclosure. It is not uncommon for me to see days with 50 percent or greater. I have lived on TFO for the past two and half days, and it's hard to find two different people living in two different locations with the same breed of tort who would recommend a really good baseline substrate or enclosure setup. For instance, i was looking up substrates for Golden Greeks yesterday. One person highly recommend Aspen bedding, SWORE by it, and another would "highly suggest" a 25/75 top soil/cypress mix. Here in VT, that soil/cypress mix would create tortoise soup in a week. Down south,and out west, it works really well, because it's warmer and dryer, and controlling humidity is a bit easier using those substrates. To make a long story short, I thank you for posting threads like these, because it REALLY helps the super noobs such as myself. Being able to take a peek at some home made enclosures specifically made for the type of environment they are living in, is insanely helpful to me. Sorry for the blabbing.



All good points and insight. Here's the thing; people ARE using these all over the country. If I lived somewhere humid, I would just greatly reduce the amount of water I dumped into the substrate and kill the fogger. It would also be pretty easy to crack a door open or add some ventilation on the sides or top.


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## kbaker

Sky2Mina said:


> @Kbaker - Yes, It's like Yvonne and Dalano said - I just wonder how you put lights or other equipment and also that you're not able to "look inside" (because they're closed, no glass/plexiglass wall) so I'm not quite sure how it works with these.



I took some pictures today, but they will have to wait until I have more time to post them.

I mount the lights in the lid...seems simple enough. I mount them like in every other cage.

A viewing window is not required.

Sorry for the short replys.


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## Sky2Mina

Cool. Looking forward to see the pics!


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## byerssusan

This is an older thread but with winter coming onI have a few questions..Okay I have the indoor enclosure..Am able to keep the humidty up pretty good. The top is still open though. It gets chilly inside here even though I live in Arizona. We don't use a lot of heaters LOL..Anyway I am thinking about putting up plexi glass up and around the enclosure I already have. That will help with keeping Phoenix warm at night.But I have wondered about this before. Because it is humid inside her enclosure and I am now starting to take her outside for natural sunshine a couple of hours a day. The air here is very dry. Will this humidty change bringing her inside and out effect her health?


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## jackrat

maggie3fan said:


> I am crushed that you would leave me out when you are naming names. I guess it's my lack of experience...
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Wow,Maggie,did you build that,or is it bought? Very nice.


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## [email protected]

Hi Tom... i just joined the forum a few days ago and can't believe what i have learned so far... i absolutely love torts... i have 2 baby lepoards and am having a heck of a time keeping the temp and humidity right... right now i have them in an open top table until i can get a better set up... i have an idea and want to run it by you... i live in Katy, Texas which is about 20 miles outside of Houston... back in December of 2011 i went to a HARKA Expo near my house and got 2 baby bearded dragons... there was a guy there that makes custom beardie enclosures and i think they may work for baby torts... the one i have is a little larger than a 10 gallon aquarium and i am thinking about putting my little leopards in it... it is completely enclosed except for a small screen vent in the back for circulation... mounted in the top inside is a florescent light fixture and just to the right of that is a ceramic fixture for a heat lite or ceramic heat element... the front has 2 sliding plexiglass doors... would that work for baby tortoises?... he also makes larger ones... i attached a picture... hopefully you can see it.



Tammy


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## jkingler

That looks really cool. 

But seeing as they will outgrow it, unless you plan to use that enclosure for future babies, or unless you just have a lot of disposable income, might I suggest a rubber/plastic tote (from Target, IKEA, etc.) and an emergency blanket? Or some other cheap, lightweight and super effective enclosure? Much cheaper, same effect.


----------



## Tom

Tammy, I think it looks great! It's a bit on the small side, but fine for hatchlings until a bigger one is made.

I'm assuming the the florescent fixture is for the tube type bulbs, right? I'd set that bulb on a 12 hour timer and then set the CHE on a thermostat. It should work really well for you.

Oh yeah. Hello and welcome to the forum.


----------



## ripper7777777

Great thread Tom, you know I support closed chambers, to me it isn't a question of humid or not, it's a desire to set the parameters of the environment for whatever animal is living in the enclosure.

My tanks are all inside and the humidity and temp varies a lot in this house, so an open table is just not gonna work. The fact so many people used closed setups here and your care sheet wasn't against them is the reason I stayed, it just simply made sense to me. I was new to Torts, but years of reptile and small animal experience has proven to me that open cages are near impossible to regulate at least in my homes.

Of course humidity isn't an issue in houston, really I'd only run into a problem if I needed low humidity....LOL Which brings up a good point, care sheets and online instructions are just a guide not a definitive rule, people will need to tailor their setups to suit their environments. example: If I added all the water others talk about adding I would have to teach my torts to swim....  

This is a great thread, I think a similar thread should be a sticky in the enclosure section, not really a You need a closed chamber, but more of a here's how I do a closed chamber and here's my results.


----------



## Tom

ripper7777777 said:


> Great thread Tom, you know I support closed chambers, to me it isn't a question of humid or not, it's a desire to set the parameters of the environment for whatever animal is living in the enclosure.
> 
> My tanks are all inside and the humidity and temp varies a lot in this house, so an open table is just not gonna work. The fact so many people used closed setups here and your care sheet wasn't against them is the reason I stayed, it just simply made sense to me. I was new to Torts, but years of reptile and small animal experience has proven to me that open cages are near impossible to regulate at least in my homes.
> 
> Of course humidity isn't an issue in houston, really I'd only run into a problem if I needed low humidity....LOL Which brings up a good point, care sheets and online instructions are just a guide not a definitive rule, people will need to tailor their setups to suit their environments. example: If I added all the water others talk about adding I would have to teach my torts to swim....
> 
> This is a great thread, I think a similar thread should be a sticky in the enclosure section, not really a You need a closed chamber, but more of a here's how I do a closed chamber and here's my results.



Agreed on all counts.


----------



## luke

Great thread. You've done a fine job in explaining how a closed system works vs an open system. I'll definelty try a closed system for my Leo babies in the near future. Oh just so there's no confusion, what do you consider to be a Baby tort? My Leos are just over a year. Would you consider them babies? How does the Care of a baby Leo tort compare to that of a juvenile?


Oh nice pics too, your GPP babies are beautiful.


----------



## Tom

I would consider the first couple of months a hatchling. 2-12 months a baby. 12-24 months a yearling. 24 months to adulthood a juvenile. This is just sort of a general guideline for myself. This is not some scientifically approved age naming system.

My current Gpp are my first batch of leopards that I have raised with the "wet" routine. As they get older and bigger, I'm gradually cutting back on the soaks, spraying and humidity. Once they are around 8-10", I intend to house them the same way I would an adult. I do the same thing for sulcatas.


----------



## luke

Thanks for clarifying tom. I forgot to ask you about your hides, where did u get them? I use clear plastic shoeboxes for my HHs and iv noticed that it doesn't get very dark in there and some times I see my torts looking at me from inside their hides. Non clear is definetly the way to go, but I just don't see any for sale.


----------



## Tom

Dishwashing tubs from Walmart. About $2.25. I just flip them upside down and cut a door out.


----------



## Vegasarah

I'm tardy to the party, but this thread is just awesome. It has SUCH great ideas!!! Going to start my tort table this weekend, I will trya nd post pictures of it on here!


----------



## Tom

That would be great. You are getting ideas from us and we will get ideas for whatever you create.


----------



## jtrux

Tom said:


>



Hey Tom, where did you get that track for the sliding door. I've been going back and forth with what type of door to put on mine and this seems like the easiest to use.


----------



## Tom

Home Depot, circa 1992 or 1993. I wouldn't do it this way again. I don't like plexi for the front as it becomes scratched and unsightly PDQ. For future builds I will have a regular double paned house window custom made at HD or Lowes for around $150. SoOOOOOO much simpler, easier and better. I will install with the "outside" portion of the window facing into the enclosure. This will allow me to "lock" the window and you can't get much more humidity and moisture proof than a window that is made to be facing outside. My Dad just built one this way and it came out fantastic.


----------



## Cowboy_Ken

*RE: Closed "Chambers"*



Tom said:


> Home Depot, circa 1992 or 1993. I wouldn't do it this way again. I don't like plexi for the front as it becomes scratched and unsightly PDQ. For future builds I will have a regular double paned house window custom made at HD or Lowes for around $150. SoOOOOOO much simpler, easier and better. I will install with the "outside" portion of the window facing into the enclosure. This will allow me to "lock" the window and you can't get much more humidity and moisture proof than a window that is made to be facing outside. My Dad just built one this way and it came out fantastic.



This is the best way to go in my opinion. The doors of glass are huge heat leakers. Getting thermopane energy savers is just dandy. I am of the mind set that plexiglass works for snakes, but glass is needed for anything with toes and claws from the scratching. And remember when choosing building material for the construction, try a use low formaldehyde boards. Heat tends to increase the release of toxins in the material. I believe California has laws that make these the only ones available to you folks.


----------



## dannel

Great thread Tom, but how do you keep the air from stagnating? I totally agree with a closed enclosure. (great for the electricity bills too!)


----------



## Tom

This has never been a problem for me in 20 years of using them. I open the doors to feed, clean waters, take them outside, bring them back in, etc... There must be enough air exchange to keep it fresh.


----------



## dannel

Okay, thanks!


----------



## TortoiseBoy1999

*RE: Closed "Chambers"*

Wow Tom, you changed your profile picture! I didn't even realize it was you! :O


----------



## lovelyrosepetal

I, personally love your new profile pic. I thought it looked awesome after you changed it. I liked the leopard too, but your sulcatas are perfect, might as well show them off.  I really like this thread. I have taken the pvc top and implemented it with mine. It is not a perfect closed chamber but it is sooooo much better than it was. Thanks for posting them and helping us all out.


----------



## evlinLoutries

*RE: Closed "Chambers"*

U always did such a great experiment Tom!

Thanks for sharing,l


----------



## Cowboy_Ken

*RE: Closed "Chambers"*

Some people talk the talk. Tom walks the walk.


----------



## jtrux

You keep these in your garage right? How do they do when it gets really cold? I finished my 4X4X2 closed chamber the other day and set it up in the garage (that's where it fits) and started taking temps to see how easy it would be to maintain the necessary temps even on cold nights. It got down to 30 last night and I was pretty disappointed so far. I started with a 100W CHE and could barely maintain 60 in the warm spot directly under the CHE (18" or so). So I added two 60W (what I had laying around) and we'll see how they do, I just finished putting them in.


----------



## Tom

I put 1.5" foam insulation around the ones in the garage and covered it with more plywood. My garage gets down into the low 50s during the really cold spells, but mainly stays in the 60s for winter. I've got 2 60 watt CHEs in my 4x8' enclosures. It keeps it at 80 with no problem with the insulation.


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## jtrux

Don't get me wrong, I didn't expect a single 100W CHE to heat the entire thing up at that temp but I figured since it was a sealed box it would be a little better than that. I'm thinking that i'll have 4 100W CHE's for winter months set on a thermostat and during the summer switch them out for 60's so I can have uniform heat throughout the enclosure.


I'll think about the foam but for now i'm tired of working on it.


Oh and the outside temp was 30, in the garage it was 44.


----------



## Tom

Just throw some blankets over it. Any sort of insulation will work. Are your fixtures inside the enclosure? It will never work in a cold garage if you have fixtures on top with holes cut out.


----------



## jtrux

Yes, the enclosure is completely sealed except for a small hole for the cord to go into.


----------



## LRTortoises

*RE: Closed "Chambers"*

I put a oil filled electric radiator space heater in mine that I picked up for 50 at home depot. The exterior of the fins where the torts can touch don't ever get over 90 so no chance of burning.

I was thinking of putting plexiglass on the front but am going to check home depot for a window tomorrow. Mine is 3 ft by 8 foot ands about 4 ft tall and for Russian tortoises. Temporarily I am covering the front with blankets.


I'd like to insulate the inside ceiling and maybe walls. What kind of insulation would I use inside it? 
If I do the The walls won't the torts be able to reach oit.?


----------



## Tom

They sell rigid foam in 4x8' sheets. I put this around the outside of mine and put thin plywood over that to protect it.

Recently I retro-fitted one of my outdoor boxes too. It is a 4x4x2'. I put the insulation on the inside and covered it with the same thin plywood to keep Scooter from thrashing it. HUGE improvement. The box stays MUCH warmer on those cold nights and the thermostat keep the heaters off a lot more.


----------



## Cowboy_Ken

*RE: Closed "Chambers"*

Oooo 50'sâ€¦those are some frightful lows you have to deal with. Just funnin. I concur, rigid foam covered on the inside.


----------



## Tom

*RE: Closed "Chambers"*



Cowboy_Ken said:


> Oooo 50'sâ€¦those are some frightful lows you have to deal with. Just funnin. I concur, rigid foam covered on the inside.



50's inside my garage, you male Equus africanus asinus! It's been in the 20s outside. I don't care where you are from, 22 degrees faranheight is COLD! 


... And definitely NOT good tortoise weather!!!


----------



## Cowboy_Ken

*RE: Closed "Chambers"*

Never good tortoise weather.


----------



## LRTortoises

*RE: Closed "Chambers"*

We get down in the 30s here at night. My heater keeps it in the low 60s for my Russians at night.


----------



## Tom

*RE: Closed "Chambers"*



LRTortoises said:


> We get down in the 30s here at night. My heater keeps it in the low 60s for my Russians at night.



Sounds okay to me.

BTW, I loved Arkansas. Spent some time there last year. Did a little movie called "Mud" over in Stuttgart. Still sporting my Mack's Prairiewings hat. We stopped at that famous BBQ place in LR on the way back to the airport. Can't remember the name now...


----------



## marcy4hope

Tom said:


> Home Depot, circa 1992 or 1993. I wouldn't do it this way again. I don't like plexi for the front as it becomes scratched and unsightly PDQ. For future builds I will have a regular double paned house window custom made at HD or Lowes for around $150. SoOOOOOO much simpler, easier and better. I will install with the "outside" portion of the window facing into the enclosure. This will allow me to "lock" the window and you can't get much more humidity and moisture proof than a window that is made to be facing outside. My Dad just built one this way and it came out fantastic.



wish i'd have seen this or thought about it before we built our newest enclosure. but, plexiglass will have to do for this one. i have a yearling sulcata in here, but this coming summer we'll move him outdoors and my baby leopard will inherit this enclosure.

my ideas definitely came from your closed chambers, tom. and there was a kid on the forum that had the idea of the sloped lid that i used. i have a 100 watt che on a thermostat and a 100 watt mvb in here. although i'm getting ready to try a 150 watt che on the thermostat because right now the 100 watt has to stay on 24/7 and never goes off. i also have a humidifier pumped into the enclosure that goes on and off throughout the day.

before this enclosure i used a 50 gallon glass aquarium. it wasn't technically completely enclosed because my lights are on the outside with holes cut out. but it worked pretty well cause my sulcata isn't perfect, but he's pretty darn smooth.


----------



## Tom

Looks good to me.


----------



## Snickersbec

I read this thread referred to me by wellington and came up with an inexpensive chamber that works for me for a while. My readings are 85% humidity with 82Â° on the cold end. 77% and 109Â° basking. Thanks again for the great info


----------



## DeanS

I really like this one...I want to see it with a 4' x 8' footprint!


----------



## Dizisdalife

DeanS said:


> I really like this one...I want to see it with a 4' x 8' footprint!



I really like this design too. If I ever get a chance to raise another baby sulcata I will build one. Not 4' x 8' though.


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## J REED

Got board today..built my closed chamber.I copied top lol.5' long..3' deep 2.5' high.




Jeremy


----------



## panda

Wow this is an amazing thread you guys. All the information is amazing and i cant wait to have my own tort and be able to return the favor. Also Wishing I had a garage of my own to build one in. Might have to go and borrow my dads for a weekend to build one of my own.


----------



## J REED

Mine is staying in garage. Helps qith heat/humidity.

Jeremy


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## lisa127

Here is a pic of a poor person's closed chambers for a hatchling/small juvenile.
The entire top is covered with a clear shower curtain from the dollar store. The screen top that the light is sitting on is covered with clear packing tape, except for the hole for the heat lamp.


----------



## J REED

Hey whatever works...

Jeremy


----------



## Tom

lisa127 said:


> Here is a pic of a poor person's closed chambers for a hatchling/small juvenile.
> The entire top is covered with a clear shower curtain from the dollar store. The screen top that the light is sitting on is covered with clear packing tape, except for the hole for the heat lamp.



I think that shower curtain is too close to the fixture. That could start a fire, or at the very least melt and stink up the whole house.


----------



## Team Gomberg

Tom said:


> lisa127 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a pic of a poor person's closed chambers for a hatchling/small juvenile.
> The entire top is covered with a clear shower curtain from the dollar store. The screen top that the light is sitting on is covered with clear packing tape, except for the hole for the heat lamp.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that shower curtain is too close to the fixture. That could start a fire, or at the very least melt and stink up the whole house.
Click to expand...


@Lisa127,

Use some aluminum foil to line the hole for the light and the edge that is closest to the fixture. I use clear tape/plastic too on my top but with a thick strip of foil lining the edges.


----------



## lisa127

I don't think it would start a fire, but I was concerned with melting. The heat lamp is simply a 60 watt light bulb in a ten inch dome. The clear tape doesn't even get warm.

ETA: With a 60 watt in a ten inch dome, the outside of the dome doesn't get very hot. The surface, measured with my temp gun, of the outer dome is 94 degrees. Trust me, my shower water is hotter than that and my shower curtains don't melt! In the winter months I use a 75 watt, but it still is not hot enough to cause problems. The shower curtain nor the tape is very warm to the touch.


----------



## Johnlaws

Does anyone use Neodesha enclosures for closed chamber? Just wonder what your experience was.


----------



## Tom

Johnlaws said:


> Does anyone use Neodesha enclosures for closed chamber? Just wonder what your experience was.



I considered that but they are too low to hang the basking lights and fixtures in.


----------



## Johnlaws

I'm learning this. I've been playing with this enclosure for a week now, without building something custom it's the most appropriate enclosure I have at the moment. It's awesome for controlling humidity, I can keep it anywhere without issue. But I can't get the temps anywhere over 84*. I didn't pay anything for the enclosure so I'm going to do some modifications to get the light further inside and get the temps up where they need to be. 


Sent from my iPhone using TortForum mobile app
1. Sulcata baby
7. Assorted Ball Pythons
1. XL Savannah Monitor
1. Red Iguana


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## BK-JAY

Now that the summer is here and the cool side of my enclosures is 93 in the day and 86 at night Im finding spots of mold growing on my bedding any suggesting anyone thanks in advance


----------



## Tom

BK-JAY said:


> Now that the summer is here and the cool side of my enclosures is 93 in the day and 86 at night Im finding spots of mold growing on my bedding any suggesting anyone thanks in advance



Remove the trouble spots and crack the door a little to allow more air flow, but watch the humidity.


----------



## jerbs

This has worked so far for me, though it's about 50% closed. I have the CHE on a thermostat, and the humidifier turns on every hour for about 10mins. 

Temps remain in the mid-80's and humidity 80-95%. This works well for now as he's still under 3in, but I'll be building something much bigger, probably fully enclosed, within the next few months. 

Not sure if it was needed, but you can see in the pics I cut a few holes in the bottom on the end for air flow.


----------



## Team Gomberg

Not sure if I shared pictures of my closed chamber yet..

I used a 40gal Zilla tank and covered the top with clear plastic, taped with masking tape and cut holes for the light fixtures. I lined the plastic holes with a 2" strip of aluminum foil for safety.

It has worked very well. I love it.










My smooth Leopard


----------



## Jlant85

Yvonne G said:


> Oh, Tom...I'm crushed! You neglected to mention my very cheap and easy "closed chamber" idea. I've mentioned it many times here on the forum and it works quite well...but its not very pretty.
> 
> I take two long sheets of aluminum foil (the kind you cook with) and I lay them side-by-side. Then I fold together the long edge of both, making one big sheet. Then I make a cover over the whole habitat including the light fixtures, similar to, but not as pretty, as Tyler's.



Yvone, can you PM me this brilliant idea of yours about the tin foil? I would love you forever if you do =)




Jlant85 said:


> Yvonne G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, Tom...I'm crushed! You neglected to mention my very cheap and easy "closed chamber" idea. I've mentioned it many times here on the forum and it works quite well...but its not very pretty.
> 
> I take two long sheets of aluminum foil (the kind you cook with) and I lay them side-by-side. Then I fold together the long edge of both, making one big sheet. Then I make a cover over the whole habitat including the light fixtures, similar to, but not as pretty, as Tyler's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yvone, can you PM me this brilliant idea of yours about the tin foil? I would love you forever if you do =)
Click to expand...


LOL never mind =) just saw it. mwahahahahaha


I LOVE THIS THREAD! I've been on forums for a while and i just stumbled upon this! Wow im late!


----------



## FloresGurl

What are the dimensions of this chamber?

Sent from my SGH-M919 using TortForum mobile app


----------



## Tom

FloresGurl said:


> What are the dimensions of this chamber?



4x8x2'.


----------



## SuperSue

Remember we are talking about housing babies. Not adults or even juveniles. Discussion is welcome here. I'm always wanting to learn more.

What age do you class as babies, i have a 4-5 year old and since taken out of humid housing has started pyramiding this last 6 months but has had rapid growth, i am attempting to get her to sleep in a moss hide but she won't. Tom says it could be how she was kept before i had her, i want to help her as much as able.
Love you enclosed chamber.


----------



## Tom

I consider them "babies" from the time they lose the egg tooth up to one year. This is not about age though, this is about size. No one knows at what size they are "out of the woods" so to speak. Several of us in dry climates are having trouble with bigger older ones when trying to make the transition to the great outdoors full time.

Show us a profile pic of yours?


----------



## dakotawiseman15

Tom said:


> Been meaning to do this one for a while now...
> 
> Over the years I have kept a lot of reptiles in a lot of different ways. I've learned a lot of stuff about a lot of species. Since finding and joining this forum almost two years ago, I've learned a TON more. Now I'm not just stumbling around alone in the dark. Now, with the help of all the fantastic TFO members, I can see and experience everyone else's enclosures and styles too.
> 
> There are a lot of good ways to house a tortoise indoors. Tank, tub, trough, table, and... closed chamber. Different methods work best for the various species and ages. Through all of my "experiments" and sharing the vast experience of others here on the forum, I have reached my current conclusion that "closed chambers", with a basking lamp inside, are the best means of housing the babies of most species. Everyone's situation is different, and we all live in different climates... heck our torts are all from different climates too. Still, overall, I have personally experienced the best results and seen the best results from others, in this style of enclosure. Several people come to mind, but Tyler, Neal, Kristina and KBaker, have especially shown their enclosures and the results. There are lots of others too, but these members have had the biggest influence on me recently.
> 
> Only in a closed chamber can I control the humidity properly. Its very dry where I live, and its a constant battle to maintain any humidity at all in most enclosures. In a closed chamber, its a piece of cake. I've used glass tanks and various styles of tortoise tables for years to house my chelonians, but the open tops let out all that beneficial humidity and heat. By putting my heat lamps and CHEs INSIDE the closed enclosure, they do NOT dry things out AND they use a lot less power to give me the same amount of heat. Plus, once they heat everything up and the thermostat kicks them off, the heat just stays in there. I'm using less electricity on my 4x8' closed chamber than I am on my 40 gallon open topped glass tank! (I have little electric meters called "Kill-A-Watt EZ"). The humidity is lower directly under the heat lamp, but its as high as I want to keep it all around that area and the rest of the enclosure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In theory this all sounds reasonable, but what happens in the real world? I've gotten the best results I've ever gotten in this type of enclosure. On a lot of my glass tanks I end up covering as much of the top as I can. It seems like the more and better I cover them, the better the results I get. But I still lose all my heat and humidity out of the hole that has to be there for my light fixtures. Like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This leads me to a big problem that has come up recently with several potential new tortoise keepers. Where does one go buy a "closed tortoise chamber" for their new pet? Most conventional enclosures are too shallow to have a closed top and still allow enough room for a hanging fixture with a hot bulb in it. I like the Vision tubs, but they are too short for this purpose. My leopard enclosure is 24" tall and that just barely accommodates things safely. When I build the next one it will be around 30" tall. I have not seen a pre-made enclosure with the right dimensions. Tyler showed me this one that he is using. I can't remember which species he is housing in this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember we are talking about housing babies. Not adults or even juveniles. Discussion is welcome here. I'm always wanting to learn more.



Just curious, how much did it cost to make this?


----------



## Tom

I built these chambers many years ago. Back in the 90's. I don't know what they would cost as there are many variables. 3 sheets of ply wood, 7 or 8 2x4s, a bunch of screws, some 4x4s and more 2x4s for legs if needed... I'm at around $100 right there. Add paint and trim if you want it. The front glass can be custom made at Home Depot to your specs for about $150.

I recently saw 2x4x2' closed chambers for sale ready to go with flourescent and incandescent light fixtures already mounted for $199.


----------



## Masqurade

I changed over from an open top to two large plastic storage drawers (15$ each). Cut out one of the sides on each and used polyken tape to connect them. I then cut out holes in the top for the bulbs, lined with tin foil. Only issue I have come across is keeping the humidity up. But there is a little gap along the top of the drawers between them and the lid so I have a fogger on the way and then along the outside I am looking to put up "walls" to stop the air flow.


----------



## Livingstone

Tom said:


> I consider them "babies" from the time they lose the egg tooth up to one year. This is not about age though, this is about size. No one knows at what size they are "out of the woods" so to speak. Several of us in dry climates are having trouble with bigger older ones when trying to make the transition to the great outdoors full time.



What trouble are you referring to with the bigger older ones?


----------



## Tom

They start pyramiding and having rough growth lines when they live outside full time in a dry climate. I, and several others, have begun attempting to humidify their heated night boxes and this appears to be solving the problem, but "all dry all the time" doesn't seem to suit any species of any age very well.


----------



## Dianne K Wiley

Howdy, I am very new to all this. Planning on getting 2 hatchling sulcata but all I read about is how to keep humidity in. I live in SE,Louisiana most of the time we have humidity of 80% w outside summer day time temps that can get to the mid 90's.. Roght now we are in the mid 80's and very moist. Yes, my house is air conditioned to keep the temps down and to dry up some of the moisture.. I am still deciding on an enclosure for my babies. I am leaning towards those big rubber maids.. Just would like to hear some opinions from people who have an abundance of heat and humidity. Maybe I can be referred to another area of this forum.... .


----------



## Dizisdalife

Dianne K Wiley said:


> Howdy, I am very new to all this. Planning on getting 2 hatchling sulcata but all I read about is how to keep humidity in. I live in SE,Louisiana most of the time we have humidity of 80% w outside summer day time temps that can get to the mid 90's.. Roght now we are in the mid 80's and very moist. Yes, my house is air conditioned to keep the temps down and to dry up some of the moisture.. I am still deciding on an enclosure for my babies. I am leaning towards those big rubber maids.. Just would like to hear some opinions from people who have an abundance of heat and humidity. Maybe I can be referred to another area of this forum.... .


Hi Dianne, welcome to the forum. In recent years it has become apparent that proper humidity level as well as hydration, diet and exercise are critical to raising a smooth shelled healthy sulcata. I assume that you will be keeping yours inside most of the first year. I suggest that you don't rely on the ambient temperature and humidity of your house to provide such an important part of their care. You may not need to work as hard to keep the humidity and heat levels where they should be as I do, but with a closed chamber you are assured that they will be spot on.


----------



## Dianne K Wiley

Oh yes, they will be inside but they will have supervised porch time to get real sunshine. Maybe a big tank with a glass cover and the rubber maid(light weight play pen to carry outside).. to get their real sunshine.. I am still planning/researching. I do need lots of help..


----------



## Star-of-India

So I've drunk the Kool-Aid! I started, or restarted, keeping tortoises at the end of December in closed vivaria after about a 15 year hiatus. I obtained 5 Indian Stars all with pyramiding to some degree or another -generally age dependent. Fairly significant in some of them. Yearlings to "juveniles" and after joining the forum I switched to pretty moist /humid conditions. 

I am so amazed by the new growth! I am feeding for growth as the too much protein/food argument doesn't make too much sense to me. I know that the existing pyramids won't flatten, but the new growth sure comes in much more flattened! It is truly incredible how flat the new growth appears. 

In any case, I'm sold! I only wish that the breeders of my torts had appreciated this!

Doug


----------



## rocillo.a

Kristina said:


> I use lower wattage heat lamps, place them right in the glass aquarium, and use a plexiglass cover to seal in the humidity. I have not had any issues with mold, shell rot, or "lack of air-flow."
> 
> My Sulcatas, Redfoot (now yearling,) and Star hatchlings have been kept this way from day one and have grown smooth. I started my Greek (yearling now also) in a a sweater box with a humid hide, and she started to pyramid. It isn't bad, but it makes me feel like a failure.
> 
> Here are some pics of my aquariums.
> 
> As you can see in this one, the heat lamps are right down in the enclosure. The one over the water dish turns it into a little "sauna" and the smaller, darker of the two babies loves to lay in it. She will put her little head on the rim and go to sleep there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are the babies. They are bigger now (WAAAAAAYYYY past time to update pictures!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is where I kept my first Star before summer hit. You can see again the heat source is right down in there. In this case it is a 60 watt black light bulb (both this enclosure and the one above have these as a heat source with an additional florescent for light.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the result...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next is my little Redfoot. This one started out in an old Metaframe slate bottom aquarium. The hood for the tank has two incandescent sockets, which hold compact florescents, and the other hanging down is a 60 watt black light bulb.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having that set up made this...




Hi there Maam Kristina... just have few questions.

i just want to know what is the range of your sulcata enclosure.. the minimum and the maximum humidity you give.
i have sulcata and my enclosure always moist and therefor, it always give 100% humidity.

i am just scared that it will cause a problem.


----------



## dannel

marcy4hope said:


> wish i'd have seen this or thought about it before we built our newest enclosure. but, plexiglass will have to do for this one. i have a yearling sulcata in here, but this coming summer we'll move him outdoors and my baby leopard will inherit this enclosure.
> 
> my ideas definitely came from your closed chambers, tom. and there was a kid on the forum that had the idea of the sloped lid that i used. i have a 100 watt che on a thermostat and a 100 watt mvb in here. although i'm getting ready to try a 150 watt che on the thermostat because right now the 100 watt has to stay on 24/7 and never goes off. i also have a humidifier pumped into the enclosure that goes on and off throughout the day.
> 
> before this enclosure i used a 50 gallon glass aquarium. it wasn't technically completely enclosed because my lights are on the outside with holes cut out. but it worked pretty well cause my sulcata isn't perfect, but he's pretty darn smooth.



Was I, by any chance, the kid whos idea this was? If so, I'm glad to see that people like my design!


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## tortoisetime565

I thought about getting a mini green house like the one above they are like 50 on amazon.


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## marcy4hope

dannel said:


> Was I, by any chance, the kid whos idea this was? If so, I'm glad to see that people like my design!


i'm not sure daniel, but probably. it's been a great enclosure idea. it's worked fine. between the original aquarium and this enclosure based off your ideas and toms, i've got one very smooth sulcata. only thing i would do different is to make it at least twice as big, or more.


----------



## Amanda81

maggie3fan said:


> I am crushed that you would leave me out when you are naming names. I guess it's my lack of experience...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or maybe it's my lack of enclosures...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this one has 2 lids on top
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you can have one lid open, or 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess it means nothing that hatchlings are my specialty or that I raise them in many different types of enclosures.


Hi maggie3! I am getting ready to adventure into the world of hatchling raising. I see that this is your specialty. I seen your enclosures and I believe I will go with something along those lines as well. I was wondering if u could give me so advise on raising one. I want to provide the very best care and environment I can from the start. I have some ideal on what I need to do, largest enclosure possible, UVB light, basking spot, and heat source, which I want to set everything up on a thermostat so I have a soft cycle and it's not just a on/off situation. Plus it will help regulate temps. In your opinion what would b the best material to put in the enclosure? Everything I have read seems to point to the Eco earth that comes in bricks and u wet. I'm a little confused as to weather I leave all that damp or just certain spots to create the right amount of humidity. Please give me some insight on this.


----------



## dannel

marcy4hope said:


> i'm not sure daniel, but probably. it's been a great enclosure idea. it's worked fine. between the original aquarium and this enclosure based off your ideas and toms, i've got one very smooth sulcata. only thing i would do different is to make it at least twice as big, or more.



Have you found that it's a little irritating having to place all lights on the back wall though, because of the closed lid?


----------



## marcy4hope

dannel said:


> Have you found that it's a little irritating having to place all lights on the back wall though, because of the closed lid?


no, i've had no problem with that.

i've only had 3 issues with this enclosure - #1 - WAY too small. #2 - the lid doesn't completely come down and so, the humidity doesn't stay in as well as it should. there is a slight opening all around the edge of the lid which causes too much humidity to escape. and #3 - the plexiglass, which i mentioned before, allows my tort to see out and so she is constantly digging at the corner and sides where she can see. that drives me nuts, because if she can see me she's constantly digging and scratching at the sides. they should have been made all of solid wood.

what has worked great: the sloped lid is nice. and i used kennel seal to protect all of the inside wood and that seems to have worked really well.


----------



## Aaron Frederick

what is the best way to mount my Heat lamps. I noticed Tom "in the beginning photos" has some wire mesh on the top. should i do something like this to create some air flow. This is the last step before I can start putting my substrate in and get my baby leopards in their new indoor enclosure.


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## Jeff9241170

Closed chamber bins

Hey guys, this is my current setup for my torts (2 redfoots and 1 elongata) been reading about closed chambers on the forum, problem is since the bin heights too low, i set the heat lamps outside

So far im getting the the following

Temps 30-32c
Humidity 80-90%

For air circulation, I open the bins entirely during cleanup and soaking

It really is so much easier to maintian humidity in a closed chamber vs an open one, I never got this amount of "fog" on my previous setups

My questions are:

Is this setup ok? The lamps outside of the enclosure, but the temps are maintained well (I guess living in a tropical environment has its advantages)
Airflow - is it sufficient? These are not airtight bins, and the I open them at least 2x a day during soaking, cleaning and feeding

Oh and the torts dont stay here permanently, they have an outdoor enclosure when the temps are just right, I also soak them under direct sunlight

Thanks!


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## G-stars

Jeff9241170 said:


> View attachment 111564
> Closed chamber bins
> 
> Hey guys, this is my current setup for my torts (2 redfoots and 1 elongata) been reading about closed chambers on the forum, problem is since the bin heights too low, i set the heat lamps outside
> 
> So far im getting the the following
> 
> Temps 30-32c
> Humidity 80-90%
> 
> For air circulation, I open the bins entirely during cleanup and soaking
> 
> It really is so much easier to maintian humidity in a closed chamber vs an open one, I never got this amount of "fog" on my previous setups
> 
> My questions are:
> 
> Is this setup ok? The lamps outside of the enclosure, but the temps are maintained well (I guess living in a tropical environment has its advantages)
> Airflow - is it sufficient? These are not airtight bins, and the I open them at least 2x a day during soaking, cleaning and feeding
> 
> Oh and the torts dont stay here permanently, they have an outdoor enclosure when the temps are just right, I also soak them under direct sunlight
> 
> Thanks!




One problem. Your ambient temps are good but what about your basking temps?


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## leigti

How do they get UVB? Do they go outside several times a week for sunshine? do they get enough light during the day to know that it is daytime in time to be active? And what do you do for heat at night?


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## Tom

I would not do it that way Jeff.

You said temps were 30-32. Where? There are four temps to know and monitor. Warm side, cool side, basking area and overnight low. Ambient of 30-32 all the time is not good in my experience, but I don't know the two species you are housing. All wet all the time will almost certainly lead to shell rot on the red foots, but I don't know anything at all about the elongata.


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## Jeff9241170

Hi guys! Thanks for the feedback!

They get natural sunlight daily, original plan was to expose them at least an hour a day, but will need to change that after getting feedback

Hey Tom

Need your expertise, so the setup isnt ok since its just ambient temps, a bulb inside the enclosure will provide them with a "basking" temp which should be warmer than the ambient temps right?

Though the whole enclosures not "wet" most of the cocopeat is moist, particularly the area on one side, they usually sleep on another side and I turn off the lamps to drop the temps to 27-28 at nights

What should be done done to provide the basking, warm and cool sides? My understanding is the lamp on one corner is basking, the middle will be the warm and the other corner will be the cool side

I have a hatchling redfoot on the small bin, a 6.5 redfoot on the longer bin under that, and an elongated on a similar bin right next to these

Appreciate all the feedback I could get as I have a 6" leopard on his way around next month

Thanks!!!


----------



## leigti

Are you able to designate one entire room in your house for all your tortoises? I ask this because then you could get some large enclosures for each of your tortoises and keep that room warmer and more humid than the rest of the house. You would still have to keep each enclosure nice and humid but dedicating one room would make it easier. And you might also be able to rig up lighting fixtures in a systematic way.


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## Tom

Jeff9241170 said:


> Hi guys! Thanks for the feedback!
> 
> They get natural sunlight daily, original plan was to expose them at least an hour a day, but will need to change that after getting feedback
> 
> Hey Tom
> 
> Need your expertise, so the setup isnt ok since its just ambient temps, a bulb inside the enclosure will provide them with a "basking" temp which should be warmer than the ambient temps right?
> 
> Though the whole enclosures not "wet" most of the cocopeat is moist, particularly the area on one side, they usually sleep on another side and I turn off the lamps to drop the temps to 27-28 at nights
> 
> What should be done done to provide the basking, warm and cool sides? My understanding is the lamp on one corner is basking, the middle will be the warm and the other corner will be the cool side
> 
> I have a hatchling redfoot on the small bin, a 6.5 redfoot on the longer bin under that, and an elongated on a similar bin right next to these
> 
> Appreciate all the feedback I could get as I have a 6" leopard on his way around next month
> 
> Thanks!!!



I'm sorry Jeff but I don't have enough experience with RFs to tell you how to house them best. In the past I housed older ones in conventional tortoise set ups, but with more humidity than for the ones we used to call "desert" species. They did okay that way, but I think there are probably better ways to do it. Since I don't keep this species, I'd rather let someone with more current knowledge and success advise you.

While I think elongated tortoises are really cool, I have no experience with them at all.

Once your leopard gets there I'd be happy to share what I've learned with you about them. In fact, I can just give you that info now, so you can have the right sort of set up ready when it arrives. These threads should get you started.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.78361/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/


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## crimson_lotus

For a hatchling redfoot, your temperatures should never be below 26.5/27 and you should have a basking spot of about 40. If you only let the tortoises outside for an hour a day, I would personally make sure they have access to a UVB bulb. You can find bulbs that have both uvb and also emit heat. I would recommend cutting some of the top of the plastic top off enough so you can show the light through, and cover the gaps with tinfoil.

I have a 4ft by 4ft enclosure for my one redfoot, and I have two basking bulbs. For smaller enclosures you may be able to get away with one bulb, as long as the temperatures are set.

Do they have any hides or anything under there? I hope you have a water dish as well. Tortoises also need a lot of room to walk around, I would try buying larger bins or making some of your own from wood.


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## Jeff9241170

Theres a water dish and a hiding spot for the hatchling, for the juvies (6.5 and 8) Theyre just there mostly during night times or when weather outside isnt warm enough for them, other than that they spend most of their times in an outdoor enclosure


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## Jeff9241170

Oh and theres a water dish for all of them, and a back up food dish for the 2 bigger ones in case they cant spend the time outside

So far since its Dec (cool season in our area - will last until feb) theyve been spending most of their times indoors, but when its warm enough again, theyll be spending most of their times outside as planned


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## Jeff9241170

Here are updated pics of them during feeding time (while getting proper exposure to sunlight) so far only the elongated one gets to spend time in the garden, I was hoping to do the "humidity" treatment Tom has done to fix the slight pyramiding on the 6.5 red foot (Saruman)


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## Yellow Turtle01

Is their natural sunlight coming in through a window in your house? If so, it's not beneficial. Glass blocks essential UVB rays your torts need. To be effectively getting natural sunlight, they need to go outdoors


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## Jeff9241170

Hi, yup, thats natural sunlight, but theres no glass blocking it. Its an open window.


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## Gennifer11

terryo said:


> I've been doing this with my boxie's for thirty years Tom, and with Pio and Solo since they were both hatchlings, with great results. Nothing new here for me..........


Hey terryo, I'm curious as to what kind of plant set up you have in there and what wattage bulbs you have?


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## terryo

I have two 100 wt. CHE...one on each side and in the middle a long 5.0 UVB light. I think that's Solo's tank....a 95 gal. There is a screen top with the two heat emitters coming through a hole and the long tube 5.0 on top of the screen. The screen is covered with clear wrapping tape with a long hole for the UVB. There was a natural hide with plants on top and a few plants throughout the tank. The substrate was soil, mixed with coco coir and in the hide was long fiber moss. I wet it with hot water and squeezed it out and fluffed it up twice a week. I didn't keep the substrate wet, I only watered the plants which were in little pots. I misted the tank once a day. I had them since they were a month old and now at 4 and 6 years they are smooth and beautiful. I never really checked the humidity, but it stayed up there. Of course I had to change the set up every Fall when they came in,


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## cmacusa3

@Tom it looks like you have just one heat lamp inside here, what is it and does it provide all the UV's needed and then the others are CHE's? I'm finishing up my new enclosure and want to set it up much like yours.


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## Jeff9241170

Hi all! Ive changed my setup and started using aquariums instead of the low bins ive had before

Ive been able to keep the necessary temps inside and the humidity, but Im a bit concerned about air circulation.

I have 2 tanks, 1 20 gallon for a sulcata hatchling, and 1 40 gallon for 2 rfs. having a closed chamber makes it so much easier to achieve the necessary temps, however, the only time I open the enclosures are when its getting cleaned/ theyre getting fed (lasts roughly 5-10 mins max)

Is this enough time for proper airflow/ circulation inside? Or is it essential to have little holes on the side for regular airflow?

Thanks!


----------



## John84

Does any oneine have specs on their enclosures? I currently still have my little guy in a 40 gal breeder tank. He's about 3 or maybe 4 inches and I would like to have a lager space for him by the time winter comes around. I have profected the the temps and humidity levels in his current space thanks to @Tom advice, but it's time to start building and regulating it's future home. Also, would it be ok to keep in the garage once the enclosure is done or will it harm the little guy?


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## Tom

John84 said:


> Does any oneine have specs on their enclosures? I currently still have my little guy in a 40 gal breeder tank. He's about 3 or maybe 4 inches and I would like to have a lager space for him by the time winter comes around. I have profected the the temps and humidity levels in his current space thanks to @Tom advice, but it's time to start building and regulating it's future home. Also, would it be ok to keep in the garage once the enclosure is done or will it harm the little guy?




I like 4x8. It works great due to the sizes of commonly available lumber, and its suits the tortoise well.

I have two 4x8s in my garage. If your garage gets cold, insulate them. If your garage gets hot in summer, be very careful and monitor temps.


----------



## John84

Tom said:


> I like 4x8. It works great due to the sizes of commonly available lumber, and its suits the tortoise well.
> 
> I have two 4x8s in my garage. If your garage gets cold, insulate them. If your garage gets hot in summer, be very careful and monitor temps.


Sweet. Should I install any vents for air if so how many and how big? Also how do you get the glass to slide from one side to the other in the front?


----------



## Maggie Cummings

Jeff9241170 said:


> Hi all! Ive changed my setup and started using aquariums instead of the low bins ive had before
> 
> Ive been able to keep the necessary temps inside and the humidity, but Im a bit concerned about air circulation.
> 
> I have 2 tanks, 1 20 gallon for a sulcata hatchling, and 1 40 gallon for 2 rfs. having a closed chamber makes it so much easier to achieve the necessary temps, however, the only time I open the enclosures are when its getting cleaned/ theyre getting fed (lasts roughly 5-10 mins max)
> 
> Is this enough time for proper airflow/ circulation inside? Or is it essential to have little holes on the side for regular airflow?
> 
> Thanks!


IMO aquariums are fine to raise small tort. The air is fine, but you must soak regularly as you put an animal on slow cook in a tank. But I have raised many babies in tanks, just be sure to soak, and keep up the humidity. I think a 40 gallon is too small for 2 redfoots. After using tanks for years, I found that homemade wooden tort tables make for happier animals. I have several tort tables now, one has 3 T. ornata and they are very different in a table as opposed to a tank. But I also used 100 and 250 gallon tanks, not small ones...are you saying your tanks are completely covered???
Do you ever have anything to do with them besides the 5 to 10 minutes of cleaning? Do you hold them, take them places and socialize the? I do and it makes for exceptional tortoises....


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## Maggie Cummings

This is the box turtlere's a couple of my tort tables






This is for a desert tort...



This is a foggy plexiglass tank for some box turtles....I also want to say that when the sun shines here, all my animals have outside pens. They all go outside, even the blind one...
I wish I'd gotten better pix for you but they all 8'X4'....hard to catch in a camera. The desert torts table is covered up that way, cuse there's not lid and the kitten sleeps under his CHE and burns her hair....the same kitten who's eating on the box turtle table....It has lids. Always build lids.....


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## Tom

John84 said:


> Sweet. Should I install any vents for air if so how many and how big? Also how do you get the glass to slide from one side to the other in the front?



You can install vents, but make sure they are closable. You might find that you don't need them.

At @cyan 's suggestion I use "lattice cap" as a tract for the plexiglass to slide back and forth in. It works great.


----------



## Jeff9241170

maggie3fan said:


> IMO aquariums are fine to raise small tort. The air is fine, but you must soak regularly as you put an animal on slow cook in a tank. But I have raised many babies in tanks, just be sure to soak, and keep up the humidity. I think a 40 gallon is too small for 2 redfoots. After using tanks for years, I found that homemade wooden tort tables make for happier animals. I have several tort tables now, one has 3 T. ornata and they are very different in a table as opposed to a tank. But I also used 100 and 250 gallon tanks, not small ones...are you saying your tanks are completely covered???
> Do you ever have anything to do with them besides the 5 to 10 minutes of cleaning? Do you hold them, take them places and socialize the? I do and it makes for exceptional tortoises....



Hi Maggie

Yup! They spend 2-3 hours outside (they have a 5x5 area in our garden where they roam around in, soak and bask directly under the sun too)

The 10-15 mins before was only during the rainy season


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## ElfDa

hey dudes! I read all about the high humidity set ups, tell people about them... but foolishly didn't follow through. 

My leopard is slightly pyramided, but it's not getting much better. She's presently free-roaming in our apartment (humidity is always about 50%, but it's just not enough), while I figure out where to go from here. 

We're looking into buying a house (we'd planned to have one by now, but life gets in the way), and will have a great outdoor setup for Penny, there... but until then, I need some guidance. 

Some folks have suggested the old "throw down a tarp, make a cinder block wall, and pile in the dirt" concept... but I'm not sure that would fix things, fully-- and it would require a LOT of dirt for a short-term plan. :/

I guess whatever I do is going to require a lot of dirt, though...

Penny is now 6lbs, and still enjoys trying to chase cats.


----------



## Jeff9241170

Hi ElfDa, welcome to the forums, Im no expert but I think as long as your setup can lock in humidity and provide Penny with the correct temp levels, then I guess thats all good.

I have a question for the experts, I have an incoming Leopard, he's roughly 6-7" in size and has signs of pyramiding.

I plan on putting him on a closed chamber setup (75 - 100 gal tank).

Will this still be able to fix the pyramiding? Or will it just prevent further pyramiding moving forward?

Thanks!


----------



## Alaskamike

Jeff9241170 said:


> Hi ElfDa, welcome to the forums, Im no expert but I think as long as your setup can lock in humidity and provide Penny with the correct temp levels, then I guess thats all good.
> 
> I have a question for the experts, I have an incoming Leopard, he's roughly 6-7" in size and has signs of pyramiding.
> 
> I plan on putting him on a closed chamber setup (75 - 100 gal tank).
> 
> Will this still be able to fix the pyramiding? Or will it just prevent further pyramiding moving forward?
> 
> Thanks!


Pyramidig is not something you "fix", but a condition you can slow and improve. As shell grows new keratin expansion the new growth can come in smoother making the pyramided growth less noticable. This reduces the stress on the underlying bone - which is the real problem, ad ot a cosmetic one.


----------



## Tom

ElfDa said:


> hey dudes! I read all about the high humidity set ups, tell people about them... but foolishly didn't follow through.
> 
> My leopard is slightly pyramided, but it's not getting much better. She's presently free-roaming in our apartment (humidity is always about 50%, but it's just not enough), while I figure out where to go from here.
> 
> We're looking into buying a house (we'd planned to have one by now, but life gets in the way), and will have a great outdoor setup for Penny, there... but until then, I need some guidance.
> 
> Some folks have suggested the old "throw down a tarp, make a cinder block wall, and pile in the dirt" concept... but I'm not sure that would fix things, fully-- and it would require a LOT of dirt for a short-term plan. :/
> 
> I guess whatever I do is going to require a lot of dirt, though...
> 
> Penny is now 6lbs, and still enjoys trying to chase cats.




You need a large closed chamber.

Running loose in the house is a recipe for disaster. I would not do that. Everybody thinks its fine, until the day they realize its not fine while standing in the vets office. I've seen so many tears shed over all the things that can happen...


----------



## Tom

Jeff9241170 said:


> Hi ElfDa, welcome to the forums, Im no expert but I think as long as your setup can lock in humidity and provide Penny with the correct temp levels, then I guess thats all good.
> 
> I have a question for the experts, I have an incoming Leopard, he's roughly 6-7" in size and has signs of pyramiding.
> 
> I plan on putting him on a closed chamber setup (75 - 100 gal tank).
> 
> Will this still be able to fix the pyramiding? Or will it just prevent further pyramiding moving forward?
> 
> Thanks!



A 100 gallon tank is fine for a hatchling but WAYYYYYY too small for a 6-7 inch tortoise. You need something around 4x8 feet and closed in.

The existing pyramiding will never go away, but newer smooth growth will make it less noticeable over time.


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## Yvonne G

One would think that "100 gallons" is a very large container, but think about it...the gallons are measured in volume, that is, the overall containment. You don't care about volume, you want floor space for your tortoise. Now if you could make the walls 8" high and make the floor space big enough to contain 100 gallons, it might (MIGHT) be big enough.


----------



## ElfDa

Tom said:


> You need a large closed chamber.
> 
> Running loose in the house is a recipe for disaster. I would not do that. Everybody thinks its fine, until the day they realize its not fine while standing in the vets office. I've seen so many tears shed over all the things that can happen...


I do agree, whole-heartedly. I'm trying to figure out how to build an enclosure that will give her enough space, and that I can put together within our 2 bedroom apartment. 

Honestly, I should have built her enclosure, first, and then added shelves and whatnot later. Hindsight is 20/20...


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## glitch4200

@Tom I have been following you for awhile now in this forum. You have much success with closed chambers. But i have always wondered if you knew the reason why from a biological point of view? Why does high humidity keep the shells smooth?.. I asked myself that question many times while searching around about my coconut oil idea.. I am just wondering to what extend you understand the process of high humidity in enclosed chambers and its effect on the alpha and beta keratin's of tortoises. I think i have figured it out.. But am curious to what you think.. Or have you even thought about this?


----------



## Tom

glitch4200 said:


> @Tom I have been following you for awhile now in this forum. You have much success with closed chambers. But i have always wondered if you knew the reason why from a biological point of view? Why does high humidity keep the shells smooth?.. I asked myself that question many times while searching around about my coconut oil idea.. I am just wondering to what extend you understand the process of high humidity in enclosed chambers and its effect on the alpha and beta keratin's of tortoises. I think i have figured it out.. But am curious to what you think.. Or have you even thought about this?



Andy Highfield and I had an 18 page argument about this. Perhaps @jaizei our resident critic and expert finder of old threads can find the thread and link it for you.

In short, the answer is not fully known. Some think humidity serves to slow internal dehydration which helps prevent pyramiding. Some people think the moisture in the air keeps the keratin layer more pliable allowing the underlying bone to form correctly and not deform as it does with overly dry keratin.

I think there are many aspects to it and much more to be learned. Humidity alone is not the only piece to this puzzle. My latest unanswered question is: Why do some hatchlings in a group that are raised in the same enclosure with the same food and routine pyramid, while others don't?


----------



## WithLisa

glitch4200 said:


> @Tom I have been following you for awhile now in this forum. You have much success with closed chambers. But i have always wondered if you knew the reason why from a biological point of view? Why does high humidity keep the shells smooth?.. I asked myself that question many times while searching around about my coconut oil idea.. I am just wondering to what extend you understand the process of high humidity in enclosed chambers and its effect on the alpha and beta keratin's of tortoises. I think i have figured it out.. But am curious to what you think.. Or have you even thought about this?


I've read an article about it some time ago. If you are interested I can look up the title, but I'm afraid it was in German.
It said that when breathing dry air, tortoises loose moisture from their lungs. To keep them moist they take water from less important tissue near the lungs, for example from the connective tissue under the shell, so the tissue sinks in. If it stays like this for a longer time and the tortoise is growing, the new keratin is build up on this deeper level.
Once the Keratin is formed it's difficult to smoothe out. Like a human fingernail can be bended, but always goes back to it's former shape.

I don't know if this is really the main cause for pyramiding (and the article was a few years old, maybe there are already newer information about it) but it makes sense to me.



Tom said:


> Why do some hatchlings in a group that are raised in the same enclosure with the same food and routine pyramid, while others don't?


I guess because of different behaviour. My two Hermanns live in the same enclosure, but one of them is rather shy, prefers to hide at moist places and digs in at night, the other one is bolder, spends a lot of time in the direct sun and never digs in. The first one has a smoother shell.


----------



## glitch4200

Tom said:


> Andy Highfield and I had an 18 page argument about this. Perhaps @jaizei our resident critic and expert finder of old threads can find the thread and link it for you.
> 
> In short, the answer is not fully known. Some think humidity serves to slow internal dehydration which helps prevent pyramiding. Some people think the moisture in the air keeps the keratin layer more pliable allowing the underlying bone to form correctly and not deform as it does with overly dry keratin.
> 
> I think there are many aspects to it and much more to be learned. Humidity alone is not the only piece to this puzzle. My latest unanswered question is: Why do some hatchlings in a group that are raised in the same enclosure with the same food and routine pyramid, while others don't?






I was interested into the biological component of this whole idea... And here is what i have come up with thru my research.

Keratin is made out of proteins.. You have beta keratin and alpha keratin. Beta means basic. Alpha means acidic.
The proteins are made out of amino acids. These amino acids are bound together by bonds between the molecules. Disulfide and i believe covelant. 

These amino acids are structured in 2 ways. Alpha keratin is combined in helixes bound by disufide bridges. The more disulfide bridges the stronger the alpha keratin. This is good. Problem is.. These bonds are water sensitive gaining and loosing water readily.. Now beta keratin are pleated sheets of bound amino acids.. These bound amino acids are subject to the same issue as alpha keratin i explained before. They are also water sensitive..

These bonds happen to be hydroscopic and are very sensitive to envirornmental influence of humidity and water intake and dehydration. That means any source that emits dehydrating heat will severely impact both alpha and beta keratin. This means every single lamp used in indoor reptile keeping, especially tortoises are literally baking off the water needed for intracellular function of both beta and alpha keratin. I have described the effects of 'unfiltered' IR-A and grounded that idea. (Pg 7) EVCO page. So we know that these lamps are super super awesome dehydrators. Yet.. Many do not realize the effect these lamps are having on our tortoises biologically.. 

Did you know alpha keratin gives rise to beta keratin in tortoises? It is a precursor to making beta keratin pleated sheets. Essentially the alpha keratin is formed using single helixes bond together, then is transformed into dead pleated helixes bound together in sheets (beta keratin). That means alpha keratin is performing functions within those cells that eventually turn into the beta keratin sheets. I read this was referred to as intracellular hydraulics, which is responsible for the nutrient distribution to the cells for living and function.. This hydraulic system is EXTREMELY sensitive to water. If you decrease the hydrogen bonds through out the amino acids of the protein you are decreasing hydraulic function of the cells. 

BUT... the tortoise has a solution to counter this menacing attack on its beta and alpha keratin from artificial lamps. Its called proliferation.. As poor hydration/humidity/ and lack of microclimate takes its toll on the beta and alpha keratin proteins... The dehydration of hydrogen between these bonds makes the alpha and beta keratin kick into protection mode.. The only thing it can do is make more beta keratin to try and stop the dehydration of its intracelluar hydraulic system. That means creating massive beta keratin sheets... which are humidiity sensitive.. this extra proliferation has bad effects on the underlying bone.. The mechanical stress is multiplied for every turned alpha keratin protein into beta keratin protein as to try and counteract poor hydrated enviroments.. If you look at the shape of a scute you will notice its shaped in a way that if dried would resemble a bowl. Think of that for a minute..

A scute that when dries curls up as the amino acids loose all its water bonds. This curling is exerrting mechanical stress on the bone below... Now if you have a poor diet in combination with poor hydration this effect is going to multiplied SEVERELY, the scute will start to want to curl... and will easily deform the growing bone... If you feed a correct diet but offer very poor hydration it may still not be enough to stop the mechanical stress from the extra proliferation of beta keratin sheets... From what i have read ... Many breeders tried so hard to put strict diet standards on there tortoise to no avail and then someone puts the humdiity up on accident and boom smooth tortoise shell. Its clear why.. Combine high humidity with proper diet and you clearly get very nice growing , healthy , tortoises. 

Here is a x-ray of my female Russian tortoise. Despite extreme growth of 5.4 oz and 1.2 inches long/wide in about 6 months in my care. She's a tad chunky but according to the vet one of the best x-rays they have seen from an indoor raised tort. Even if it is just 6 months. My humidity averages at about 20 to 30% even though I daily spray at lest 2x a day maintaining above 50% in my open table top but only for a short time. 








Think why you need such humid, hydrated habitats... Think why its recommended for many torts high heat, high humidity, which have shown excellent results. You are in a battle with artificial lamps 24/7! The moment that lamp turns on the moment alpha and beta keratin proteins are effected and change in there biology as a result.. 

We can even talk about the skin now... The skin is made of alpha keratin.. with some beta keratin as well.. Along with deeper tissues and blood vessles... These tissues also have intracelluar hydraulic properties that are also effected by artificial lmaps... Now think of a tortoise exposed to very dry , little water, little humidiity, but synthesis of pre D3 occurs in the skin.. But yet... that is all processed by intracelluar hydraulic movements which is being severely effected by a lack of bonds between the keratins and tissues. So now we have a lamp that is effecting pretty much every single part of a tortoise.. Not one part is not effected by drhydration of the bonds between these proteins.

Now we can combine this all together. So now we have alpha keratin in the skin which is responsible for synthesis of d3 (among others) tissues and blood vessels suppressed by lack of hydrogen bonds between the helixes of the alpha bonds which effectively slows and inhibits the synthesis process of crucial bone development .. is this factor in MBD? Where spongy bone is prevalent because the skin is so dehydrated by artificial lamps that it almost shuts down the process of creating critical synthesis of micronutrients so the body must now substitute by drawing from its own resources? 

Pretty much everything on a tortoise runs on intracelluar hydraulics because the entire tortoise is covered in beta and alpha keratin .. under every scute is a layer of alpha keratin which is responsible for intracelluar transmission of nutrients and elective current, If you suppress this function you in for a world of hurt. Do you notice the crazy growth lines my female Russian has? Since applying coconut oil on her shell for the last 6 months , has made the alpha keratin explode in growth because the lactic acid coconut oil decomposes and eats beta keratin. Which I described is what is responsible for the mechanical pressure exerted on the underlying bone . If you keep the keratin pliable and in equalibrium , like in enclosed Chambers it very much helps the issue of pyramiding but it does not take the issue of lamps creating enough mechanical stress on the alpha keratin away because of its "unfiltered" nature .


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## glitch4200

WithLisa said:


> I've read an article about it some time ago. If you are interested I can look up the title, but I'm afraid it was in German.
> It said that when breathing dry air, tortoises loose moisture from their lungs. To keep them moist they take water from less important tissue near the lungs, for example from the connective tissue under the shell, so the tissue sinks in. If it stays like this for a longer time and the tortoise is growing, the new keratin is build up on this deeper level.
> Once the Keratin is formed it's difficult to smoothe out. Like a human fingernail can be bended, but always goes back to it's former shape.
> 
> I don't know if this is really the main cause for pyramiding (and the article was a few years old, maybe there are already newer information about it) but it makes sense to me.
> 
> 
> I guess because of different behaviour. My two Hermanns live in the same enclosure, but one of them is rather shy, prefers to hide at moist places and digs in at night, the other one is bolder, spends a lot of time in the direct sun and never digs in. The first one has a smoother shell.




Now this fits my theory perfectly.. if it's too dry.. now the lungs need moisture to keep its intracellular hydraulics system going ... I mean it's responsible for oxygen transfer which is a hydraulics system too.. soo now you have a trifecta of issues going on here in low humid environments and unfiltered artifical lamps. You have suppressed skin synthesis , suppressed lung function, biologically changing alpha an beta keratin, poor thermal regulation (from decreased intracellular hydraulics), increased mechanical stress on bone .. the list is endless.. 

And of course the one exposed to the most "unfiltered" IR would be the most pyramided. Different personalities and habits .. one likes nice moist substrate one spends time under the lamp. Obviously the one under the lamp will pyramid or "want" to start pyramiding because of that extra beta keratin production .


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## Tom

Great posts and discussion.

Now what is the practical solution to providing a warm basking spot for an indoor tortoise without the drying effects of extreme IR-A from incandescent bulbs? What to we tell the everyday Joe to do to set up a proper enclosure with the correct thermal gradients?

I've got an experiment under way already on this. Just haven't found the time to post it yet. I'm raising a group of sulcata hatchlings with no incandescent bulbs of any kind. I'm using overhead radiant heat panels to maintain ambient and a gradient during the day. The panels are high enough above the tortoises that any desiccating effects should be minimal.

How does that plan fit in with your theory, glitch?


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## WithLisa

@glitch4200 I still don't get what you mean by "unfiltered" IR. What's the difference between filtered and unfiltered IR with the same wave length? 
Lamps are desiccating because they only warm up a small spot of the closed chamber (or even the room if it's an open table), so you always have a dry air flow.


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## glitch4200

Tom said:


> Great posts and discussion.
> 
> Now what is the practical solution to providing a warm basking spot for an indoor tortoise without the drying effects of extreme IR-A from incandescent bulbs? What to we tell the everyday Joe to do to set up a proper enclosure with the correct thermal gradients?
> 
> I've got an experiment under way already on this. Just haven't found the time to post it yet. I'm raising a group of sulcata hatchlings with no incandescent bulbs of any kind. I'm using overhead radiant heat panels to maintain ambient and a gradient during the day. The panels are high enough above the tortoises that any desiccating effects should be minimal.
> 
> How does that plan fit in with your theory, glitch?



I have thought about radiant heat panels. I have a couple concerns with it. And I hope you very much prove me wrong with your experiment. 

Unless you have water filtered radiant panels, your panels are still emitting "unfiltered" IR. And not only that.. They are emitting long wave infrared which means it has very poor penetration in tissue. (wFIR) = water filtered infrared radiation, which is used by the medical community to replenish and repair intracellular function by replacing and hydrating the skin, also it allows deep core heating instead of superficial heating. 

Radiating panels are still producing the effects but minimized but you sacrifice something here, you may decrease water loss, but now you have a problem with super heating the top tissues because it doesn't have the power to penetrate deep into tissues. Technically if this would be an issue, you will see pyramiding with radiated heat panels. Because the tortoise would desperately trying to reach core temps needed but would fall short because the rays used don't have the power to reach the deep tissues like the sun does. It may slow down the loss of water in the bonds of the alpha and beta keratin bonds but it's not eliminated. But still it could work possibly with the right combination. For now I guess we tell the average keeper to use multiple lamps at a higher distance to create a big basking zone while decreasing localized heating. Use halogen bulbs because they provide better seeing light. But until someone creates a filter for reptile keepers like the hydro sun light I put in the link, there is not much to be done.. Except increasing distance or something like I am trying with the coconut oil. But again it's not a solution. The water filtered heat bulb for tortoises would be. 

Here is a gadget that would be the solution to our reptile and tortoise problem.. A filter put into a bulb that effectively takes away the dehydrating capabilites of "unfiltered' lamps. It explains it in the website.

http://www.hydrosun.de/en/

My next question for you Tom is now that your using strictly infrared heat to heat your tortoise your absence of the rest of the visible spectrum must be substituted.. So what are you substituting for the visible part of the spectrum so your tortoise can 'see'. You can't just use a UV tube because it doesn't have "full spectrum" irradience. So what is being substituted for this 'seeing' light?


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## glitch4200

WithLisa said:


> @glitch4200 I still don't get what you mean by "unfiltered" IR. What's the difference between filtered and unfiltered IR with the same wave length?
> Lamps are desiccating because they only warm up a small spot of the closed chamber (or even the room if it's an open table), so you always have a dry air flow.




The sun is filtered because it passes thru our atmosphere. The atmosphere is water laden. The water absorbs the infrared but not all of is is absorbed.. What passes thru is considered water filtered infrared radiation. What we feel from the sun is water filtered. And allows it to not take water molecules from our body. .. 

Artifical lamps are not filtered because of the absence of any water atmosphere between the lamp and the tortoise. The only water they get exposed to is humidity between bulb and tortoise. 

So any emitted light from a bulb in the infrared side of the spectrum (all of them pretty much) and does not pass thru water and since IR-A is water hungry it will take the first water it comes into contact with to satisfy it's need for hydrogen. 

The first water that the 'unfiltered' rays come into contact with is the water in the tortoises shell and skin. Alpha and beta keratin.. As well as the surrounding environment. Hence closed Chambers keeps humidity high to help filtered the lamps above the tortoise. But there is not nearly enough water to 'filtered' all the infrared light from these high powered lamps. 

Go to my coconut oil page and read page 7.. I explain it pretty well there too. Sorry am at work lol


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## Tom

glitch4200 said:


> My next question for you Tom is now that your using strictly infrared heat to heat your tortoise your absence of the rest of the visible spectrum must be substituted.. So what are you substituting for the visible part of the spectrum so your tortoise can 'see'. You can't just use a UV tube because it doesn't have "full spectrum" irradience. So what is being substituted for this 'seeing' light?



I intended to get more into the specifics of this new experiment when I started my other thread, but this is a great discussion and I think talking about it here is warranted.

First I think explaining the "why" will help the "how" to be more understandable. It is my supposition, based on conversations about the wild and captive observations over many years, that newly hatched sulcatas do not bask and don't experience much of a thermal gradient in the niche they occupy. It is my totally unproven, but educated, guess that they dig out of their nests, run for cover under thick brush, and stay there. I can't even begin to guess what the temperature under their bushes is, but because its the rainy season, I know the humidity is very high under there. If ambient temps are 100-110 with the sun beating down on the top of their underbrush, its got to be at least in the 80's under 2 or 3 feet of heavy brush, right? So, I'm guessing on the temperatures, but my intention is to have hot temps during every day, warm temps all night, 80%ish humidity all the time and a 12 hour day/night light cycle.

My closed chamber enclosure is about 22" tall inside and the RHPs are mounted to the ceiling. I doubt the tortoises can perceive any heat from them at ground level. I'm using them to maintain my day and night ambients and they are the sole het sources. Enclosure is about 6 feet long and 3 feet deep.

Now to answer your question and explain the heating and lighting: Its a jumbled mess of confusing wires, timers and thermostats but it makes sense when explained item by item. Well... it makes sense to me...
1. I have two 12x12" 40 watt RHPs on the two ends of the enclosure set on one thermostat to maintain 80ish, day and night.
2. I have a timer set for about 12 hours a day for a 48" 5000K florescent tube. Roughly 7am to 7pm.
3. Set on the above light timer's circuit is another thermostat set to 90 degrees and hooked up to an 80 watt 12x21" RHP mounted over the middle of the enclosure. So for 12 hours a day, the light is on and the enclosure slowly heats to 90ish, as if the sun were beating down on their underbrush and warming it all up. I have a basking rock under this RHP and light, but they don't use it.
4. Finally, I have an Arcadia 12% HO bulb mounted in the middle of the ceiling and it turns on for about 4-5 hours a day, mid day.


So the "sun" comes up around 7am, it gets really bright and warm mid day with higher UV, and then the sun sets and things begin to cool around 7pm. The 6 hatchlings have been in there for over a month and they are growing and thriving so far. No issues of any kind to report, and their carapaces are super smooth. Babies also get soaked daily and taken out to a large tub for some real sunshine for about an hour 3-4 times a week, weather permitting.


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## glitch4200

Tom said:


> I intended to get more into the specifics of this new experiment when I started my other thread, but this is a great discussion and I think talking about it here is warranted.
> 
> First I think explaining the "why" will help the "how" to be more understandable. It is my supposition, based on conversations about the wild and captive observations over many years, that newly hatched sulcatas do not bask and don't experience much of a thermal gradient in the niche they occupy. It is my totally unproven, but educated, guess that they dig out of their nests, run for cover under thick brush, and stay there. I can't even begin to guess what the temperature under their bushes is, but because its the rainy season, I know the humidity is very high under there. If ambient temps are 100-110 with the sun beating down on the top of their underbrush, its got to be at least in the 80's under 2 or 3 feet of heavy brush, right? So, I'm guessing on the temperatures, but my intention is to have hot temps during every day, warm temps all night, 80%ish humidity all the time and a 12 hour day/night light cycle.
> 
> My closed chamber enclosure is about 22" tall inside and the RHPs are mounted to the ceiling. I doubt the tortoises can perceive any heat from them at ground level. I'm using them to maintain my day and night ambients and they are the sole het sources. Enclosure is about 6 feet long and 3 feet deep.
> 
> Now to answer your question and explain the heating and lighting: Its a jumbled mess of confusing wires, timers and thermostats but it makes sense when explained item by item. Well... it makes sense to me...
> 1. I have two 12x12" 40 watt RHPs on the two ends of the enclosure set on one thermostat to maintain 80ish, day and night.
> 2. I have a timer set for about 12 hours a day for a 48" 5000K florescent tube. Roughly 7am to 7pm.
> 3. Set on the above light timer's circuit is another thermostat set to 90 degrees and hooked up to an 80 watt 12x21" RHP mounted over the middle of the enclosure. So for 12 hours a day, the light is on and the enclosure slowly heats to 90ish, as if the sun were beating down on their underbrush and warming it all up. I have a basking rock under this RHP and light, but they don't use it.
> 4. Finally, I have an Arcadia 12% HO bulb mounted in the middle of the ceiling and it turns on for about 4-5 hours a day, mid day.
> 
> 
> So the "sun" comes up around 7am, it gets really bright and warm mid day with higher UV, and then the sun sets and things begin to cool around 7pm. The 6 hatchlings have been in there for over a month and they are growing and thriving so far. No issues of any kind to report, and their carapaces are super smooth. Babies also get soaked daily and taken out to a large tub for some real sunshine for about an hour 3-4 times a week, weather permitting.




I say that is an excellent educated guess. I would guess (although I lack the observational experience you do and keeping time) maybe even higher. Upper 80s low 90s for ambient heat in the brush atleast. I mean it is not one to be just chilling in the open, not at the top of the food chain.. You focus on bigger species, my focus is on Russian tortoises. Although different environments their are many similar needs when we begin to talk about proper lighting set ups between the species, temps are easy to adjust once you get the right light and infrared combo. I am extremely interested in this. 

This lighting set up could be the ideal way to house tortoises indoors in the future, unless I find a way to "filter" infrared from artificial lamps. I am determined. 

So you can even generalize that for the average keeper. Instead of buying 100s of dollars in bulbs every year. Spend that money into a well built radiant heat panels and a very nice full spectrum lamp with added UVb. Have them build a closed chamber or open table top with a roof, that is semi enclosed at least. 

Place the panels exactly like you did.. I also very much agree that tortoises really don't have much of a temp gradient in the wild . The sun doesn't pick and chose warm and cold spots. You either have shade from brush or you dig a hole to provide shade. Why I have my entire habitat so warm and many places to hide. 

I really like that combo though. Your set up makes absolute perfect sense to me. 

1x 48 inch full spectrum 5000k tube to provide very good visible light out put so the tortoises can 'see' well.

1x Arcadia 12% HO for UVb and UVa. Hung down at about 20 inches? 

And 3 radiant heat panels that heats a tad under 4sq ft of space in a 9 Sqft habitat. So technically the basking "zone" is around 4 Sqft on these panels instead of a measly 8x8 tile from a regular incandescent bulb. (I measured haphazardly, I work at a tile store lol) 

Those panels could possibly stop localized heating as bad as the lamps used now provided your tortoises are able to reach proper internal temps. Localized heating of the alpha and beta keratin is responsible for the rapid dehydration I was talking about in the intracellular hydraulics system. The more water is taken from the alpha and beta keratin the more the biology is changed in the proteins, as decreased hydraulics in the cells hinder nutrient transfer which ultimately leads to deficiency. 

Localized heating. Severe uneven infrared distribution. And I have distance and multiple lamps to spread out heat and I still saw this still with my camera. Taken 13 minutes after exposed to lamps. 




You can see the little red spots. Those little red spots are super heated tissues. And do not occur in nature. As the sun does not produce this effect with its water filtered rays. They actually happen to occur mostly in the alpha keratin lines through out the shell, which makes perfect sense since the helixes that make up the alpha keratin are extremely water sensitive because of its open hydrogen bonds. Which can readily be taken by water hungry IRa. And are... 

My curiosity is taking thermal images of the habitat to really see how the heat is being distributed and if the panels are creating basking zones of roughly 4sqft or not. And then I want to see how the shell reacts to 'unfiltered' long wave infrared it's being exposed to. If you had water radiant heat panels technically you would be able to put them really close.. Because no alpha and beta keratin would be superheated because the water hungry infrared has already been filtered. Thus making the panels deep core heating panels which would be magnificent.. And the best idea ever.


----------



## Tom

glitch4200 said:


> I say that is an excellent educated guess. I would guess (although I lack the observational experience you do and keeping time) maybe even higher. Upper 80s low 90s for ambient heat in the brush atleast. I mean it is not one to be just chilling in the open, not at the top of the food chain.. You focus on bigger species, my focus is on Russian tortoises. Although different environments their are many similar needs when we begin to talk about proper lighting set ups between the species, temps are easy to adjust once you get the right light and infrared combo. I am extremely interested in this.



The reason why I am leaning to the low side is because one of the TTPG presenters talked about a trip searching for Coura species in the Vietnamese jungle. With an ambient temp of 95 and "humidity so oppressive that it was hard to breathe..." at human head height, he found temps in the low 70's in the underbrush where the turtles were and as low as 65 in some densely over grown hollows. Now, of course, that is under the cover of a full rainforest canopy, where the sulcata babies are in an overgrown but open Savannah...

I really wish someone over there would just go stick a thermometer in the bushes and report back!

If you find yourself in Los Angeles with your Flir technology, you are welcome to come photograph any of my tortoises in all the various enclosures. The more we all learn about all this the better.

I've not heard of this water filtered heat. What is your source for this info? Where can we go to learn more about it besides the typical internet searching?


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## glitch4200

Tom said:


> The reason why I am leaning to the low side is because one of the TTPG presenters talked about a trip searching for Coura species in the Vietnamese jungle. With an ambient temp of 95 and "humidity so oppressive that it was hard to breathe..." at human head height, he found temps in the low 70's in the underbrush where the turtles were and as low as 65 in some densely over grown hollows. Now, of course, that is under the cover of a full rainforest canopy, where the sulcata babies are in an overgrown but open Savannah...
> 
> I really wish someone over there would just go stick a thermometer in the bushes and report back!
> 
> If you find yourself in Los Angeles with your Flir technology, you are welcome to come photograph any of my tortoises in all the various enclosures. The more we all learn about all this the better.
> 
> I've not heard of this water filtered heat. What is your source for this info? Where can we go to learn more about it besides the typical internet searching?




Thank you Tom. If I am ever out there I'll be sure to ask to stop by, I always want to learn. I appreciate the opportunity. The first place I found out about "unfiltered" IRa was actually a thread here on this forum by Francis Baines from UV guide UK. Here. He points out there is very little research done about 'unfiltered' IR. This is not a wide known issue yet. 

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/84606/

He explains this idea very nicely. But then Andy Highfield wrote an article on it too on the tortoise trust website, summarizing Francis Baines idea and showing how dehydrating these lamps actually were with some experiments. Page 7 of my coconut oil thread is taken from this article with Francis Baines idea in mind too.. 

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/baskinghealth.html 

Kinda crazy how dehydrating these lamps really are and he shows that by presenting the graphs of relative humidity before, during and after lamps are turned on and off. Immediately you see huge dips in the graph because water is most instantly taken from the environment as the infrared quickly robes the air of that moisture. 

The coconut oil idea was actually an accident, after I had read about 'unfiltered' IR on the infrared vs sunlight thread, I thought I wonder if this oil could help. I did some cleaning that day and saw the coconut oil and remembered that people used it to help moisturize and block the sun. So I decided to do some more research on it.. At which point I started my thead and my more in depth research on this. 

I quickly realized there was basically no information on "unfiltered" infrared except the medical community. As humans are not constantly exposed to the lamps so no one really ever needed a research the idea about dehydrating the skin/body in humans. We have the sun. 

Artificial lamps were never engineered for housing reptiles. They were converted into a way to keep reptiles.. But this issue has remained largely ignored it seems, as most breeders and keepers I talk to this issue with says the exact same thing to me, "what the hell are you talking about 'unfiltered' IR." 

It's like no one knows. But yet it is a huge massive variable in reptile care and has been quite looked over and ignored. I hope this changes now. Because the dehydrating capabilitiss of these lamps are what is causing pyramiding from localized heating. Poor diet, poor hydration and lack of exercise just speeds up the process of pyramiding.. But the decrease in intracellular hydration in alpha and beta keratin promotes the increase of proliferation (as a counter measure) to try and stop bonds from breaking and becoming unstable from the unrelenting "unfiltered" water hungry infrared. Take away mechanical stress of beta keratin while increasing intracellular hydraulics of alpha keratin should theoretically create a healthier tortoise all around. (theory).


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## Tom

glitch4200 said:


> Thank you Tom. If I am ever out there I'll be sure to ask to stop by, I always want to learn. I appreciate the opportunity. The first place I found out about "unfiltered" IRa was actually a thread here on this forum by Francis Baines from UV guide UK. Here. He points out there is very little research done about 'unfiltered' IR. This is not a wide known issue yet.
> 
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/84606/
> 
> He explains this idea very nicely. But then Andy Highfield wrote an article on it too on the tortoise trust website, summarizing Francis Baines idea and showing how dehydrating these lamps actually were with some experiments. Page 7 of my coconut oil thread is taken from this article with Francis Baines idea in mind too..
> 
> http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/baskinghealth.html
> 
> Kinda crazy how dehydrating these lamps really are and he shows that by presenting the graphs of relative humidity before, during and after lamps are turned on and off. Immediately you see huge dips in the graph because water is most instantly taken from the environment as the infrared quickly robes the air of that moisture.
> 
> The coconut oil idea was actually an accident, after I had read about 'unfiltered' IR on the infrared vs sunlight thread, I thought I wonder if this oil could help. I did some cleaning that day and saw the coconut oil and remembered that people used it to help moisturize and block the sun. So I decided to do some more research on it.. At which point I started my thead and my more in depth research on this.
> 
> I quickly realized there was basically no information on "unfiltered" infrared except the medical community. As humans are not constantly exposed to the lamps so no one really ever needed a research the idea about dehydrating the skin/body in humans. We have the sun.
> 
> Artificial lamps were never engineered for housing reptiles. They were converted into a way to keep reptiles.. But this issue has remained largely ignored it seems, as most breeders and keepers I talk to this issue with says the exact same thing to me, "what the hell are you talking about 'unfiltered' IR."
> 
> It's like no one knows. But yet it is a huge massive variable in reptile care and has been quite looked over and ignored. I hope this changes now. Because the dehydrating capabilitiss of these lamps are what is causing pyramiding from localized heating. Poor diet, poor hydration and lack of exercise just speeds up the process of pyramiding.. But the decrease in intracellular hydration in alpha and beta keratin promotes the increase of proliferation (as a counter measure) to try and stop bonds from breaking and becoming unstable from the unrelenting "unfiltered" water hungry infrared. Take away mechanical stress of beta keratin while increasing intracellular hydraulics of alpha keratin should theoretically create a healthier tortoise all around. (theory).



Thanks for the info. For some reason I was under the impression that Frances is a lady. One of us is going to suffer some embarrassment...

I look forward to the day when we have a practical solution that we can recommend for this issue. Please let the forum know if you find something.


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## Yvonne G

Tom said:


> Thanks for the info. For some reason I was under the impression that Frances is a lady. One of us is going to suffer some embarrassment...
> 
> I look forward to the day when we have a practical solution that we can recommend for this issue. Please let the forum know if you find something.



Well, I'm pretty sure "es" is the female spelling and "is" is male.


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## Tom

Yvonne G said:


> Well, I'm pretty sure "es" is the female spelling and "is" is male.



So is it Frances or Francis, that we are talking about?


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## Team Gomberg

I'm enjoying following this discussion! 

If I ever raise babies again, I'll be trying to find an outside "lamp free" way to do it. The Frances thread is where I first learned of IRA too. It is what pushed me to move mine out sooner than later.
(Btw, I was also under the impression "lilac dragon" is a woman  )


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## Yvonne G

If you do a Google search the results show the 'es' spelling, so I would assume Frances is female.

"
*Reptile Lighting Information*
BY FRANCES M. BAINES, M.A., VETMB, MRCVS

To reptiles, sunlight is life. Reptiles are quite literally solar powered; every aspect of their lives is governed by their daily experience of solar light and heat, or the artificial equivalent when they are housed indoors. Careful provision of lighting is essential for a healthy reptile in captivity......."


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## jaizei

I don't know why it matters but Frances Baines is female.


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## Tom

jaizei said:


> I don't know why it matters but Frances Baines is female.



In a discussion about your life's work, would you want people referring to you by the wrong gender? I wouldn't. It would not be the end of the world or anything, but its just a little awkward.


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## Yvonne G

jaizei said:


> I don't know why it matters but Frances Baines is female.



Hey...inquiring minds HAVE to know!!!


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## jaizei

For me, I would be more concerned that my work was being accurately represented than the pronouns used. 

For those that haven't followed her for years
http://chamworld.blogspot.com/2009/10/dr.html?m=1


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## glitch4200

Shaun fail. I swear I read he. That's what happens when you smoke too much ganja.. You mix it up. 
*lowers head in embarrassment*


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## glitch4200

Tom said:


> Thanks for the info. For some reason I was under the impression that Frances is a lady. One of us is going to suffer some embarrassment...
> 
> I look forward to the day when we have a practical solution that we can recommend for this issue. Please let the forum know if you find something.




I found those heat panels. And control switches and thermostats, it going to be my next project. I really really like the concept. And when I do it I'll have my handy dandy infrared temp gun to see how it heats it all up.


----------



## Sheldon's pappy

Tom said:


> Been meaning to do this one for a while now...
> 
> Over the years I have kept a lot of reptiles in a lot of different ways. I've learned a lot of stuff about a lot of species. Since finding and joining this forum almost two years ago, I've learned a TON more. Now I'm not just stumbling around alone in the dark. Now, with the help of all the fantastic TFO members, I can see and experience everyone else's enclosures and styles too.
> 
> There are a lot of good ways to house a tortoise indoors. Tank, tub, trough, table, and... closed chamber. Different methods work best for the various species and ages. Through all of my "experiments" and sharing the vast experience of others here on the forum, I have reached my current conclusion that "closed chambers", with a basking lamp inside, are the best means of housing the babies of most species. Everyone's situation is different, and we all live in different climates... heck our torts are all from different climates too. Still, overall, I have personally experienced the best results and seen the best results from others, in this style of enclosure. Several people come to mind, but Tyler, Neal, Kristina and KBaker, have especially shown their enclosures and the results. There are lots of others too, but these members have had the biggest influence on me recently.
> 
> Only in a closed chamber can I control the humidity properly. Its very dry where I live, and its a constant battle to maintain any humidity at all in most enclosures. In a closed chamber, its a piece of cake. I've used glass tanks and various styles of tortoise tables for years to house my chelonians, but the open tops let out all that beneficial humidity and heat. By putting my heat lamps and CHEs INSIDE the closed enclosure, they do NOT dry things out AND they use a lot less power to give me the same amount of heat. Plus, once they heat everything up and the thermostat kicks them off, the heat just stays in there. I'm using less electricity on my 4x8' closed chamber than I am on my 40 gallon open topped glass tank! (I have little electric meters called "Kill-A-Watt EZ"). The humidity is lower directly under the heat lamp, but its as high as I want to keep it all around that area and the rest of the enclosure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In theory this all sounds reasonable, but what happens in the real world? I've gotten the best results I've ever gotten in this type of enclosure. On a lot of my glass tanks I end up covering as much of the top as I can. It seems like the more and better I cover them, the better the results I get. But I still lose all my heat and humidity out of the hole that has to be there for my light fixtures. Like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This leads me to a big problem that has come up recently with several potential new tortoise keepers. Where does one go buy a "closed tortoise chamber" for their new pet? Most conventional enclosures are too shallow to have a closed top and still allow enough room for a hanging fixture with a hot bulb in it. I like the Vision tubs, but they are too short for this purpose. My leopard enclosure is 24" tall and that just barely accommodates things safely. When I build the next one it will be around 30" tall. I have not seen a pre-made enclosure with the right dimensions. Tyler showed me this one that he is using. I can't remember which species he is housing in this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember we are talking about housing babies. Not adults or even juveniles. Discussion is welcome here. I'm always wanting to learn more.


Hi, I'm Chris. I have a 3 month old sulcata named Sheldon. I have a couple of questions if you don't mind. Can I get a blueprint for this kind of closed chamber? And what are CHE's? And lastly, what is the substrate you are using in these pictures? I'm using a cypress mulch floor right now.


----------



## Tom

I custom build each enclosure by hand. No blue prints here.

Ceramic Heating Element. All heat, no light.

I use orchid bark primarily for sulcatas, leopards and stars.


----------



## Sheldon's pappy

Gotcha on all three. Thanks


----------



## Alaskamike

Just wanted to say thanks for this thread. One of the best discussions I've seen on raising babies and closed chambers - as well as the desiccating effects of artificial UV. 

With so many people raising torts today and the ability to quickly share real time information and results the hobby is just getting better and better for our charges. 

Though I'm not raising babies now , if I were , a set up like Toms would be a top priority. I have been thinking about how to mitigate the drying effects of unfiltered (by atmosphere moisture) lamp UV. Even in closed systems. 
I wonder if a plexiglass tray of water , under the lamp, would substitute for the filtration of atmosphere ? Or would the plexiglass just reduce the UV to the point of no use. I don't know enough about it to know. 

What do you think ?


----------



## glitch4200

Alaskamike said:


> Just wanted to say thanks for this thread. One of the best discussions I've seen on raising babies and closed chambers - as well as the desiccating effects of artificial UV.
> 
> With so many people raising torts today and the ability to quickly share real time information and results the hobby is just getting better and better for our charges.
> 
> Though I'm not raising babies now , if I were , a set up like Toms would be a top priority. I have been thinking about how to mitigate the drying effects of unfiltered (by atmosphere moisture) lamp UV. Even in closed systems.
> I wonder if a plexiglass tray of water , under the lamp, would substitute for the filtration of atmosphere ? Or would the plexiglass just reduce the UV to the point of no use. I don't know enough about it to know.
> 
> What do you think ?


 

Oh man me and my buddy invention is going to revolutionize tortoise keeping. We have effectively figured out how to filtered infrared light. We have and are in the process of prototyping our gadget, we have got a water filtered filter that ia cost effective and works very well thru preliminary trials so far. No longer will we need to worry about this unfiltered infrared... No longer will we need crazy humid environments to supplement the loss of water by artificial lamps. 

The best part is our provisional patent paper work is already filled out. We have 12 months to finalize our invention to receive a legit patent number. 

We will have a kick start campaign as well. 

The filter and hardware it's attached too will be able to control, airflow, temp, humidity, audio, and video. 

It's capable of of 720 HD video, HD audio, 3d core graphics card, high end processor. WiFi ready. Each unit will be able to control 4 lamps per habitat. Which independent controls each temp, humidity, airflow etc. The best thing of all this is that this unit will be able to be controled by a smartphone or computer. Remote access to all things control. And the best thing is.. I am not lying..


----------



## Tom

Alaskamike said:


> Just wanted to say thanks for this thread. One of the best discussions I've seen on raising babies and closed chambers - as well as the desiccating effects of artificial UV.
> 
> With so many people raising torts today and the ability to quickly share real time information and results the hobby is just getting better and better for our charges.
> 
> Though I'm not raising babies now , if I were , a set up like Toms would be a top priority. I have been thinking about how to mitigate the drying effects of unfiltered (by atmosphere moisture) lamp UV. Even in closed systems.
> I wonder if a plexiglass tray of water , under the lamp, would substitute for the filtration of atmosphere ? Or would the plexiglass just reduce the UV to the point of no use. I don't know enough about it to know.
> 
> What do you think ?




UV is not desiccating. Incandescent bulbs are desiccating because they emit high levels of IR-A.

Plexi and water would filter out all UV. They make a special type of plexi that allows UV to pass, but then I think the water would filter out the UV.


----------



## glitch4200

Uv bulbs emit small amounts of infrared. Of uou placed multiple UVb bulbs together on a habitat it is going to do the same thing infrared but on a way smaller scale.. I saw it first hand. Drops in humidity. Becuase the uv ia not filtered either it does not pass through water from a lamp either. I want to find the graph I saw. That showed UVb spectral distribution the line trickled into the infrared zone just a smidgen around 700 nanometers. But then dies out about their. It peaks in the uv zone and drops off the chart at 2 percent power in the infrared zone. Any infrared even low low low amounts from UVb tube still slightly dissects.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

glitch4200 said:


> Uv bulbs emit small amounts of infrared. Of uou placed multiple UVb bulbs together on a habitat it is going to do the same thing infrared but on a way smaller scale.. I saw it first hand. Drops in humidity. Becuase the uv ia not filtered either it does not pass through water from a lamp either. I want to find the graph I saw. That showed UVb spectral distribution the line trickled into the infrared zone just a smidgen around 700 nanometers. But then dies out about their. It peaks in the uv zone and drops off the chart at 2 percent power in the infrared zone. Any infrared even low low low amounts from UVb tube still slightly dissects.
> View attachment 139336


700nm is visible red light according to the chart you posted, infrared is not visible and on the chart you show does not encompass the range of light you suggest comes from a UV bulb. I eagerly await your other source chart. This topic is of great interest.


----------



## tortoisegirl5

Kristina said:


> I use lower wattage heat lamps, place them right in the glass aquarium, and use a plexiglass cover to seal in the humidity. I have not had any issues with mold, shell rot, or "lack of air-flow."
> 
> My Sulcatas, Redfoot (now yearling,) and Star hatchlings have been kept this way from day one and have grown smooth. I started my Greek (yearling now also) in a a sweater box with a humid hide, and she started to pyramid. It isn't bad, but it makes me feel like a failure.
> 
> Here are some pics of my aquariums.
> 
> As you can see in this one, the heat lamps are right down in the enclosure. The one over the water dish turns it into a little "sauna" and the smaller, darker of the two babies loves to lay in it. She will put her little head on the rim and go to sleep there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are the babies. They are bigger now (WAAAAAAYYYY past time to update pictures!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is where I kept my first Star before summer hit. You can see again the heat source is right down in there. In this case it is a 60 watt black light bulb (both this enclosure and the one above have these as a heat source with an additional florescent for light.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the result...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next is my little Redfoot. This one started out in an old Metaframe slate bottom aquarium. The hood for the tank has two incandescent sockets, which hold compact florescents, and the other hanging down is a 60 watt black light bulb.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having that set up made this...


 your torts are BEAUTIFULL!!!!! the enclosures look good to, the torts seem happy in them!


----------



## THBfriend

Tom said:


> Plexi and water would filter out all UV. They make a special type of plexi that allows UV to pass, but then I think the water would filter out the UV.



No, water does not filter out all UV. It's about as transparent for UV-A and B as it is for visible light. Several fish and other water-dwelling creatures actually have UV-A vision. Would be pointless if water would quickly absorb it. Here's the absorption curve of water.


----------



## Pearly

Hi Guys! I love this thread! I've been beating my head against a wall with fighting the battle of humidity in air-conditioned house but with your thoughts and ideas I got some inspiration and thinking I maybe onto something! My babies nursery is 40 gal planted tank. My temps have been pretty consistent but humidity was just hit or miss. Went to Home Depot today and got some insulation stuff from the construction building materials section. The job will be completed tomorrow but I'll try to demonstrate here how I went about it having not a single "handy/engineering bone" in my body.
View attachment ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1439189122.789500.jpg
The cover screen is hinged in the middle so I had to do it in 2 phases. This is the first half. Holes cut out for lamp fixture and fogger hose. The insulation is secured with metal tape (found it where all the other insulation things were kept at HD). I'll do this same with the the other 1/2 tomorrow.
View attachment ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1439189362.669310.jpg
I don't like the opening for the fogger hose. Will have to look at plumbing section for some attachment to make it better. For now it works well.
View attachment ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1439189521.045129.jpg
limited in picture quality with just using iphone.
View attachment ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1439189640.185180.jpg
Here is our sweet girl tearing prickly pear fruit for the very first time in her remodeled home. I'll post pics of finished work with readings from my meters later. For now, please take a look and kindly critique, offer better ideas if you please


----------



## Pearly

Pearly said:


> Hi Guys! I love this thread! I've been beating my head against a wall with fighting the battle of humidity in air-conditioned house but with your thoughts and ideas I got some inspiration and thinking I maybe onto something! My babies nursery is 40 gal planted tank. My temps have been pretty consistent but humidity was just hit or miss. Went to Home Depot today and got some insulation stuff from the construction building materials section. The job will be completed tomorrow but I'll try to demonstrate here how I went about it having not a single "handy/engineering bone" in my body.
> View attachment 142827
> The cover screen is hinged in the middle so I had to do it in 2 phases. This is the first half. Holes cut out for lamp fixture and fogger hose. The insulation is secured with metal tape (found it where all the other insulation things were kept at HD). I'll do this same with the the other 1/2 tomorrow.
> View attachment 142828
> I don't like the opening for the fogger hose. Will have to look at plumbing section for some attachment to make it better. For now it works well.
> View attachment 142829
> limited in picture quality with just using iphone.
> View attachment 142830
> Here is our sweet girl tearing prickly pear fruit for the very first time in her remodeled home. I'll post pics of finished work with readings from my meters later. For now, please take a look and kindly critique, offer better ideas if you please


Btw, our babies home is in my daughter's bedroom. I have an awesome child (and 2 others, also great, just younger and not as mature as she is) and this new hobby is something she and I love doing together.


----------



## RecklessCyanide

when you have a closed enclosure, how do you deal with the air ventilation. I know it's better to have fresh air for them which open top enclosure can easily do


----------



## Team Gomberg

RecklessCyanide said:


> when you have a closed enclosure, how do you deal with the air ventilation. I know it's better to have fresh air for them which open top enclosure can easily do



No closed chamber is "air tight". Air is also exchanged daily during feeding, cleaning the water dish or accessing your tortoise.

An open top enclosure in an entirely warm and humid room would be much better than the smaller, closed chambers....But most of us don't want to live in the same conditions that our tortoises need. Closed chambers solve that problem. 
Nice, cool 73°F air in my house, +80° humid air in their house. Everybody is comfortable and happy


----------



## DonatelloTheSulcata

Yvonne G said:


> Well, ok then. My feathers have gone back smooth.



@Yvonne G I need help with a baby sulcata habitat and lighting questions can you please contact me via phone 8017838827 or email [email protected], Thanks! (Sulcata Lover)


----------



## Anyfoot

DonatelloTheSulcata said:


> @Yvonne G I need help with a baby sulcata habitat and lighting questions can you please contact me via phone 8017838827 or email [email protected], Thanks! (Sulcata Lover)


 Hi Donatello just in case Yvonne doesn't see your tag. Here are some more sulcata specialists that can help you @Tom @DeanS


----------



## Yvonne G

DonatelloTheSulcata said:


> @Yvonne G I need help with a baby sulcata habitat and lighting questions can you please contact me via phone 8017838827 or email [email protected], Thanks! (Sulcata Lover)



You would be much better off posting your query on the open forum in a new thread. I don't raise baby sulcatas. If you're not comfortable starting your own thread for this, then @Tom would be the one to talk to.


----------



## Brian Alvarado

Tom said:


> Been meaning to do this one for a while now...
> 
> Over the years I have kept a lot of reptiles in a lot of different ways. I've learned a lot of stuff about a lot of species. Since finding and joining this forum almost two years ago, I've learned a TON more. Now I'm not just stumbling around alone in the dark. Now, with the help of all the fantastic TFO members, I can see and experience everyone else's enclosures and styles too.
> 
> There are a lot of good ways to house a tortoise indoors. Tank, tub, trough, table, and... closed chamber. Different methods work best for the various species and ages. Through all of my "experiments" and sharing the vast experience of others here on the forum, I have reached my current conclusion that "closed chambers", with a basking lamp inside, are the best means of housing the babies of most species. Everyone's situation is different, and we all live in different climates... heck our torts are all from different climates too. Still, overall, I have personally experienced the best results and seen the best results from others, in this style of enclosure. Several people come to mind, but Tyler, Neal, Kristina and KBaker, have especially shown their enclosures and the results. There are lots of others too, but these members have had the biggest influence on me recently.
> 
> Only in a closed chamber can I control the humidity properly. Its very dry where I live, and its a constant battle to maintain any humidity at all in most enclosures. In a closed chamber, its a piece of cake. I've used glass tanks and various styles of tortoise tables for years to house my chelonians, but the open tops let out all that beneficial humidity and heat. By putting my heat lamps and CHEs INSIDE the closed enclosure, they do NOT dry things out AND they use a lot less power to give me the same amount of heat. Plus, once they heat everything up and the thermostat kicks them off, the heat just stays in there. I'm using less electricity on my 4x8' closed chamber than I am on my 40 gallon open topped glass tank! (I have little electric meters called "Kill-A-Watt EZ"). The humidity is lower directly under the heat lamp, but its as high as I want to keep it all around that area and the rest of the enclosure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In theory this all sounds reasonable, but what happens in the real world? I've gotten the best results I've ever gotten in this type of enclosure. On a lot of my glass tanks I end up covering as much of the top as I can. It seems like the more and better I cover them, the better the results I get. But I still lose all my heat and humidity out of the hole that has to be there for my light fixtures. Like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This leads me to a big problem that has come up recently with several potential new tortoise keepers. Where does one go buy a "closed tortoise chamber" for their new pet? Most conventional enclosures are too shallow to have a closed top and still allow enough room for a hanging fixture with a hot bulb in it. I like the Vision tubs, but they are too short for this purpose. My leopard enclosure is 24" tall and that just barely accommodates things safely. When I build the next one it will be around 30" tall. I have not seen a pre-made enclosure with the right dimensions. Tyler showed me this one that he is using. I can't remember which species he is housing in this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember we are talking about housing babies. Not adults or even juveniles. Discussion is welcome here. I'm always wanting to learn more.


How would you cover up a 75 gallon glass tank so the temperatures stays in I dont have a lot of money or enough to buy an enclosed chamber


----------



## Alaskamike

Brian Alvarado said:


> How would you cover up a 75 gallon glass tank so the temperatures stays in I dont have a lot of money or enough to buy an enclosed chamber


You can buy a piece of plexiglass and cut it to size. Then cut out a circle for the UVB. 

Or.... You can make a tent like structure out of wood over the top , lights and all and cover it with plastic. Cheaper.


----------



## Yvonne G

Brian Alvarado said:


> How would you cover up a 75 gallon glass tank so the temperatures stays in I dont have a lot of money or enough to buy an enclosed chamber



That's easy. You just have to figure out the lights but an aquarium is the easiest to make a closed chamber. You could get a piece of plexi and cut holes for the lights/heat.


----------



## Tom

Brian Alvarado said:


> How would you cover up a 75 gallon glass tank so the temperatures stays in I dont have a lot of money or enough to buy an enclosed chamber



I build my own. Check this one out:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/2015-growth-experiment.119874/

You could make a simpler version without the insulation or RHPs much cheaper.


----------



## Timothy Stewart

How long should a tortoise be kept in a closed chamber? Until it grows out of it?


----------



## glitch4200

Will said:


> 700nm is visible red light according to the chart you posted, infrared is not visible and on the chart you show does not encompass the range of light you suggest comes from a UV bulb. I eagerly await your other source chart. This topic is of great interest.




So I have been trying to find a better chart showing the spectral power of a uvb lamp that shows some of the infrared side of the spectrum. This is the best one I can find, since my old screenshots were lost I my old phone, I have tried to contact the company with no luck. But this kinds shows that the spectral line goes past the 700 Mark and continues into the infrared at that same spectral power level. It's not much at all.. But I'm sure it has some effect even if it's very small. Idk maybe I am wrong, but I would bet that Line continues past the 900 into the deeper infrared where it eventually dips off. Any lamp that is not subjected to our earth's atmosphere is considered unfiltered. So even a uvb lamp would emit small amounts of unfiltered infrared. But maybe it would be so substantial that saying it has any effect would be too much? But I still feel it could be present, whether or not it has effect on the reptile. Just a thought.. 













You can compare that uvb spectral line to this daylight basking bulb spectral line just for reference and for others opinion too. And then the last pic is the spectrum of an infrared bulb, you will notice it is absent almost completely of the lower visible spectrum and is very powerful unfiltered infrared, almost 100 percent is at some of the most dehydrating parts of the spectrum for reptiles.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

Hi Shuan,

Thanks for the response. I wish the people who created these charts would decide on a standard of what part of the range moves from right to left or left to right. What to do? I guess just read them critically.

I have revisited this thread a few times or another you have contributed to. I sought an evaluation of the various heat producing devices from a friend who thought he would have time in his lab. That *** seems to have fallen apart, but in some dialogue regarding heat panels he had this to share.

"For the radiant heat panel, it looks like this is just what is called a blackbody emitter, which means that the light it gives off is just a function of the temperature that it runs at. After plugging it in, it runs at somewhere around 65 deg C, which means that the light that it gives off is all in the 4 micron and longer wavelength range of the infrared -- nothing even close to the visible.. My equipment will not measure anything that long, but it really shouldn't matter, as anything biological is going to react to these wavelengths pretty much as just absorbed heat. These are the sort of wavelengths that you see on one of those heat sensing cameras, where the brighter things have the higher body temperature. If you want to get an idea of the spectrum, just go to the link
http://www.spectralcalc.com/blackbody_calculator/blackbody.phpand put in the values of temp = 65 deg C, and set the lower limit for the graph as 2 microns, and the upper limit around 16 microns. Hit "calculate" and it will display the curve for a blackbody source at this temp."

When I compared the result of this web page based calculator I see a small portion of the heat produced by heat emitters like sold by the Bean Farm and Reptile Basics still produces some radiant heat that would be atmosphere filtered. I use these emitters and hope the effect is negligible.

I also use heat mats for seed starting placed between two floor tiles for 'gentle' overhead heat.

I also still use a few red heat lamps, but have them so they shine on a tile above a hide, so their direct illumination does not go to the tortoise but to the tiles which then radiates the heat down into a hide. I'm going to use them up, when they burn out I will them discard them.

Thanks again.


----------



## ArcT

Aaron Frederick said:


> View attachment 104146
> View attachment 104147
> what is the best way to mount my Heat lamps. I noticed Tom "in the beginning photos" has some wire mesh on the top. should i do something like this to create some air flow. This is the last step before I can start putting my substrate in and get my baby leopards in their new indoor enclosure.




Having the lights on top can work, but is more difficult to control humidity. I used wire mesh and top mounted lights. The chimney effect of the heat for removal of humidity is difficult, but not impossible to deal with. (84°\95% cool, 97°ish/75% hot side average)

I used automotive weather stripping to seal the lid gap and aluminum tape to close off as much airflow around the light fixture as possible. I still need to mist daily and pour at least 32oz of water on the substrate daily to keep the evaporation under control.

Just wanted to toss the info out there for consideration in light placement. Good luck with the torts.


----------



## Daylan Landry

Dizisdalife said:


> I really like this design too. If I ever get a chance to raise another baby sulcata I will build one. Not 4' x 8' though.


I want to buy one!


----------



## RichM

Noob question,- if the worry about the hot spot is that it is drying out the shell: In a closed chamber system why not use belly heat? If, in a closed chamber with a controlled overall ambient heat you used belly heat to provide a hot spot, would that prevent the drying of the shell or cause any other problems for overall tortoise health? I've seen reference to using pig blankets for supplementary heating and if the air temp is already 80 or whatever you need it to be does hot spot heat being under, rather than over, the tortoise matter?


----------



## Markw84

A main reason to provide basking light and heat is to allow them a more realistic basking behavior. That is for both thermo-regulation and for UV exposure and the subsequent vitamin D3 production. They are "programmed" to do these behavior responses from stimuli from overhead solar light/heat. They do not respond the same way to substrate heat

Also, the production of D3 happens in the skin of tortoises. They need UVB to allow the skin to produce pre vitamin D which happens quite quickly with proper UVB AND heat exposure. That is then converted to D3 in the skin if the skin is allowed to heat properly. That takes more time and is a lot of the basking activity you see. None of that can happen with substrate heat

I believe the references you saw to pig blankets for heat were in the application of creating ambient heat in a night box, not to provide or replace a basking light


----------



## Tom

RichM said:


> Noob question,- if the worry about the hot spot is that it is drying out the shell: In a closed chamber system why not use belly heat? If, in a closed chamber with a controlled overall ambient heat you used belly heat to provide a hot spot, would that prevent the drying of the shell or cause any other problems for overall tortoise health? I've seen reference to using pig blankets for supplementary heating and if the air temp is already 80 or whatever you need it to be does hot spot heat being under, rather than over, the tortoise matter?



I've tried a few variations of this and it has not worked as well as a conventional basking lamp for me.

Give it a try, document your findings and share with us. Perhaps you will discover something I missed.


----------



## BrianWI

I use a heat mat under the humid hides for night heat. Worked good years ago for me and am doing with my new sulcata. But for my basking area I am using a UVB florescent coil type (I have access to a high end light tester. I read the UVC worries and there is almost none in this bulbs spectrum. If anything,the UVB exposure is a touch low) and a CHE. Small tank for now.


----------



## Brian Alvarado

what temperature should the basking light be at I have a powersun 100watt Mercury Vapor UVB


----------



## Tidgy's Dad

I think these threads should be kept fresh.
Mostly, Nobody's going to read thought 11 pages.


----------



## Tom

Brian Alvarado said:


> what temperature should the basking light be at I have a powersun 100watt Mercury Vapor UVB



Usually MVBs are too hot for closed chambers. Usually your basking temp should be around 95-100.

What species are we talking about?


----------



## Brian Alvarado

African Spurred Tortoise Sulcata


----------



## RIO'S MOM

Building this enclosure this week. Need lighting/heat fixture and wattage recommendations from you experts. Have ONE male red foot between 10 and 50 years old(?). Total guess, but he has made a sex toy out of a fake rock, and he actively pursues this activity! He's a rescue. Have had him for about two months. 

This enclosure is on end. It measures 4'×5.7'×2.8'. I am waterproofing the inside with a membrane with 0 VOCs. It's 90% complete. Has a plexiglass lid yet to be installed (thanks to pics above from Maggie3fan!) And a front plexiglass door. Doing the floor with sheet linoleum. And moving on to lighting fixtures. I'm gathering a CHE on a thermostat is the way to go for heat. Have both. Do I also want UVB and infrared ? Or Just UVB and CHE ?

Help! I'm a newbie. THANKS !


----------



## Maggie Cummings

Yvonne G said:


> My, my, my...so easy to get our feathers ruffled, huh Maggie?  In Tom's defense, this is a thread about closed chambers, and I really don't think you've ever posted pictures of THAT tort table before. I like that one.



Not seriously, I was mostly just being sarcastic, and what I really should have done, and still might... is my version of Tom's 'closed chamber' doing it almost the way he says only mine has 2 chambers and is closed. And that tort table i did post houses my adult T.ornata ornata not babies, so really wasn't appropriate for this thread actually.


----------



## RIO'S MOM

RIO'S MOM said:


> Building this enclosure this week. Need lighting/heat fixture and wattage recommendations from you experts. Have ONE male red foot between 10 and 50 years old(?). Total guess, but he has made a sex toy out of a fake rock, and he actively pursues this activity! He's a rescue. Have had him for about two months.
> 
> This enclosure is on end. It measures 4'×5.7'×2.8'. I am waterproofing the inside with a membrane with 0 VOCs. It's 90% complete. Has a plexiglass lid yet to be installed (thanks to pics above from Maggie3fan!) And a front plexiglass door. Doing the floor with sheet linoleum. And moving on to lighting fixtures. I'm gathering a CHE on a thermostat is the way to go for heat. Have both. Do I also want UVB and infrared ? Or Just UVB and CHE ?
> 
> Help! I'm a newbie. THANKS !
> View attachment 186348
> View attachment 186349


This discussion is happening here:


http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/recommend-lighting-fixture-closed-4×6-shelter.146283/


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## Pearly

RIO'S MOM said:


> Building this enclosure this week. Need lighting/heat fixture and wattage recommendations from you experts. Have ONE male red foot between 10 and 50 years old(?). Total guess, but he has made a sex toy out of a fake rock, and he actively pursues this activity! He's a rescue. Have had him for about two months.
> 
> This enclosure is on end. It measures 4'×5.7'×2.8'. I am waterproofing the inside with a membrane with 0 VOCs. It's 90% complete. Has a plexiglass lid yet to be installed (thanks to pics above from Maggie3fan!) And a front plexiglass door. Doing the floor with sheet linoleum. And moving on to lighting fixtures. I'm gathering a CHE on a thermostat is the way to go for heat. Have both. Do I also want UVB and infrared ? Or Just UVB and CHE ?
> 
> Help! I'm a newbie. THANKS !
> View attachment 186348
> View attachment 186349


Omg!!!! "Newbie"??!!! You should start manufacturing those for reptile keepers who like myself have "2 left hands" when it comes to making things like enclosures


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## RIO'S MOM

Pearly said:


> Omg!!!! "Newbie"??!!! You should start manufacturing those for reptile keepers who like myself have "2 left hands" when it comes to making things like enclosures



I told Hubbs that you said this. He smiled. He IS very crafty with everything. Perfect husband! I posted some more progress pics in the thread below.
All critiques and advice welcome... BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE AND ITS FULL OF DIRT ! LOL


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## RIO'S MOM

Didn't take film off of front plexiglass yet







CHE on thermostat, and moved UVB to another cord with timer. Lamps secured to Ubolts with springs that keep them snug to venting ports.




Linoleum, MEMBRANE from Lowes on five walks, FLEX SEAL as baseboard, silicone caulking on all seams. Have yet to FLEX SEAL bottom 3"of loft hutch. Thermostat probe has since been secured and housed at substrate level with a corner PVC pipe. We also removed those unnecessary hutch latches on the vertical.




Loft hutch doors open and slide out cleaning tray in loft. Ramp on full length of open side. Ramp protected with MEMBRANE(upper) FLEX SEAL (lower). Plexiglass for window


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## cmacusa3

This is probably one of the best I've seen!!!!! I'm guessing the ramp won't be so steep once the substrate is put in and The only suggestion I have is putting a side on the ramp.


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## RIO'S MOM

Abramsmytankturtle said:


> This is probably one of the best I've seen!!!!! I'm guessing the ramp won't be so steep once the substrate is put in and The only suggestion I have is putting a side on the ramp.



That's what I told Hubbs, I couldn't sell it. Maybe your agreement will help ! Thanks


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## RIO'S MOM

Oh yah, one more thing, because of height, we had to keep it low. So Hubbs built this to keep it off the ground and make it easy to move around for cleaning the room. Old picnic table top with industrial casters.

my Hubbs.


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## RIO'S MOM

FLEX SEAL being applied to substrate effected bottom of LOFT Hutch. (This hutch by the way is from Petco. It's meant for rabbits. It's coated with anti-fungal waterproofing stain ) we modified the hutch a LOT. Was screened in, removed all screen. Took off a wall and door on the ramp side, widened ramp. Switched loft door from screen to plexiglass, took off unnecessary hardware.
http://t.petco.com/shop/en/petcosto...s/trixie-natura-animal-hutch-with-outdoor-run






The probe wire is duct taped to the wall and the ceiling. It is placed at substrate level free moving inside the open PVC pipe bolted to the corner frame piece so Rio can't get to it, at the warm end of the vivarium. That's the ramp from the loft laying on the floor.


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## Tidgy's Dad

Absolutely super job.
I second the sides to the ramp idea, though.


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## RIO'S MOM

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Absolutely super job.
> I second the sides to the ramp idea, though.



With the help of you and Abrams, I won the railing discussion. Much obliged. We're going with the half log edging up the sides. Between safety and the desire to break up his line of sight to create more interest in his living area, Hubbs caved. Thanks you guys!



Sells at Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01JGXWO96/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20


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## RIO'S MOM

New question; 
With daily oversight of substrate to remove waste.... About how long does one get with substrate (shelf life) before complete vivarium overhaul ?
I'll be using a mix of coco coir, orchid bark, and cypress mulch blend. Have a rock area in warm half of vivarium. I am NOT stratafying the layers for waste processing.

Thoughts? AND, any tips to extend substrate life?


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## Tom

RIO'S MOM said:


> New question;
> With daily oversight of substrate to remove waste.... About how long does one get with substrate (shelf life) before complete vivarium overhaul ?
> I'll be using a mix of coco coir, orchid bark, and cypress mulch blend. Have a rock area in warm half of vivarium. I am NOT stratafying the layers for waste processing.
> 
> Thoughts? AND, any tips to extend substrate life?



I never replace it unless that tortoise moves out and another is moving in. I just spot clean as needed.


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## RIO'S MOM

Tom said:


> I never replace it unless that tortoise moves out and another is moving in. I just spot clean as needed.



Seriously! Do you have the layers for waste processing, cause I won't be doing that? Just coco coir beneath orchid bark and cypress mulch.
Is this common? I figured overhaul once a month or so. Tell me about your substrate.

I had to put Rio in the chamber yesterday for the first time. Haven't really made it ready yet, but it's too cold outside for him during the day, here in PA, for the first time. Only have JUST finished hydrating the coir and placed a couple large flat rocks for a feeding area. He barely leaves the rocks. He's been living on the deck all summer, with a rock area and a hide and a soaking pool in one area, rugs and deck plants and furniture everywhere else. He seems NOT to like the coir (dirt). He walked through it once, all around, and has retreated to the flat, cleaner rocks since.

What up with that? Have I 'deckstitutionalized' him? LOL




Rio LOVES to MARCH in the rain. I love warm rain, it means I don't have to mist him 4, 5 times that day. He's so funny. He truly marches all over the deck.




Just one far corner of the deck that Rio called home since rescued.




 MARCH ON !  I always wondered if the drumming of rain on his hide inspired him. WE DID have a VERY wet summer here, too. Unusually so.


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## Tom

I use fine grade orchid bark. I think it will work better for a RF because they are so sensitive to shell rot. Its easy to keep the lowers layers damp to increase humidity while the upper layer that is in contact with the plastron stays relatively dry.

I remove poop whenever I see it and I remove any leftover food when I see it. No need to replace the substrate is its not "dirty". Regular soaks also tend to keep poop out of the substrate since most torts will poop in the soak water.


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## RIO'S MOM

Well,


Tom said:


> I use fine grade orchid bark. I think it will work better for a RF because they are so sensitive to shell rot. Its easy to keep the lowers layers damp to increase humidity while the upper layer that is in contact with the plastron stays relatively dry.
> 
> I remove poop whenever I see it and I remove any leftover food when I see it. No need to replace the substrate is its not "dirty". Regular soaks also tend to keep poop out of the substrate since most torts will poop in the soak water.


Well, he clearly isn't fond of the coir. He still is keeping himself to the rock surfaces. Thanks bunches. I may repurpose the coir to gardening then. I was hoping to get a warm day today so I could take him out to finish the set up. Not today... I think I will shop vac it out, so he is happier. He clearly doesn't want to be in it. Put him in soak in the sink and get er done, then.

Thank you.

What about pee, no concern, huh ?


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## Tom

RIO'S MOM said:


> What about pee, no concern, huh ?



Tortoises don't really excrete "pee". When they are well hydrated, they will sometimes dump their water reservoir and refill it with available water, but there really isn't much nitrogenous waste in this material. When they don't have an abundance of water they excrete the white urates that we've all seen. Like with birds. If you are seeing urates, you may need to reevaluate your hydration routine. If not, then you don't need to worry about "pee".


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## RIO'S MOM

Tom said:


> Tortoises don't really excrete "pee". When they are well hydrated, they will sometimes dump their water reservoir and refill it with available water, but there really isn't much nitrogenous waste in this material. When they don't have an abundance of water they excrete the white urates that we've all seen. Like with birds. If you are seeing urates, you may need to reevaluate your hydration routine. If not, then you don't need to worry about "pee".



Thanks, Tom. Never knew this. Haven't asked my Bro about it. Just took it for granted that we all pee. Very interesting. No urates, Rio's a gulper.


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## Lori lawson

Kristina said:


> Yes, it is  That is my little Black Cherry. She was produced by Redfoot NERD (Terry Kilgore, www.turtletary.com ) I had to have her the moment I saw her because she is just so unusual. Terry has produced a few more of the "black" ones since this one, but she was the first and also the blackest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, you don't, lol. It would be a NIGHTMARE to heat something that size and keep it humid, lol.
> 
> My opinion is that the young babies hide so much anyway, that they don't need as large of an enclosure as a juvenile. Until they reach the size where they feel more "predator proof" it is okay to use a smaller enclosure. For many however, it is just cheaper and easier to start out with the size that you are eventually going to need, rather than doing upgrades and having to keep buying new equipment. I already have all this crap so it is a lot easier for me, lol.
> 
> As far as keeping them outside... You could do something like this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> It has a lid, too. The lid is hinged, just a wooden frame with more of the wire in it. That is where the "Three Amigos" have stayed since they came to live with me




I see that you have torts. I've been told that they will fight or die. Do you have any problems with that?


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## Lori lawson

Kristina said:


> Yes, it is  That is my little Black Cherry. She was produced by Redfoot NERD (Terry Kilgore, www.turtletary.com ) I had to have her the moment I saw her because she is just so unusual. Terry has produced a few more of the "black" ones since this one, but she was the first and also the blackest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, you don't, lol. It would be a NIGHTMARE to heat something that size and keep it humid, lol.
> 
> My opinion is that the young babies hide so much anyway, that they don't need as large of an enclosure as a juvenile. Until they reach the size where they feel more "predator proof" it is okay to use a smaller enclosure. For many however, it is just cheaper and easier to start out with the size that you are eventually going to need, rather than doing upgrades and having to keep buying new equipment. I already have all this crap so it is a lot easier for me, lol.
> 
> As far as keeping them outside... You could do something like this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> It has a lid, too. The lid is hinged, just a wooden frame with more of the wire in it. That is where the "Three Amigos" have stayed since they came to live with me


What plants do you have in there?


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## Tidgy's Dad

Lori lawson said:


> I see that you have
> 
> i see that you have three torts. I've been told that they will fight or die. Do you have any problems with that?


It's pairs that is the biggest problem. 
If you have three or more and a large amount of space groups can, sometimes, work. 
Also redfoots work better in groups than most other species, it seems.


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## Kaliman1962

glitch4200 said:


> I say that is an excellent educated guess. I would guess (although I lack the observational experience you do and keeping time) maybe even higher. Upper 80s low 90s for ambient heat in the brush atleast. I mean it is not one to be just chilling in the open, not at the top of the food chain.. You focus on bigger species, my focus is on Russian tortoises. Although different environments their are many similar needs when we begin to talk about proper lighting set ups between the species, temps are easy to adjust once you get the right light and infrared combo. I am extremely interested in this.
> 
> This lighting set up could be the ideal way to house tortoises indoors in the future, unless I find a way to "filter" infrared from artificial lamps. I am determined.
> 
> So you can even generalize that for the average keeper. Instead of buying 100s of dollars in bulbs every year. Spend that money into a well built radiant heat panels and a very nice full spectrum lamp with added UVb. Have them build a closed chamber or open table top with a roof, that is semi enclosed at least.
> 
> Place the panels exactly like you did.. I also very much agree that tortoises really don't have much of a temp gradient in the wild . The sun doesn't pick and chose warm and cold spots. You either have shade from brush or you dig a hole to provide shade. Why I have my entire habitat so warm and many places to hide.
> 
> I really like that combo though. Your set up makes absolute perfect sense to me.
> 
> 1x 48 inch full spectrum 5000k tube to provide very good visible light out put so the tortoises can 'see' well.
> 
> 1x Arcadia 12% HO for UVb and UVa. Hung down at about 20 inches?
> 
> And 3 radiant heat panels that heats a tad under 4sq ft of space in a 9 Sqft habitat. So technically the basking "zone" is around 4 Sqft on these panels instead of a measly 8x8 tile from a regular incandescent bulb. (I measured haphazardly, I work at a tile store lol)
> 
> Those panels could possibly stop localized heating as bad as the lamps used now provided your tortoises are able to reach proper internal temps. Localized heating of the alpha and beta keratin is responsible for the rapid dehydration I was talking about in the intracellular hydraulics system. The more water is taken from the alpha and beta keratin the more the biology is changed in the proteins, as decreased hydraulics in the cells hinder nutrient transfer which ultimately leads to deficiency.
> 
> Localized heating. Severe uneven infrared distribution. And I have distance and multiple lamps to spread out heat and I still saw this still with my camera. Taken 13 minutes after exposed to lamps.
> 
> View attachment 131557
> 
> 
> You can see the little red spots. Those little red spots are super heated tissues. And do not occur in nature. As the sun does not produce this effect with its water filtered rays. They actually happen to occur mostly in the alpha keratin lines through out the shell, which makes perfect sense since the helixes that make up the alpha keratin are extremely water sensitive because of its open hydrogen bonds. Which can readily be taken by water hungry IRa. And are...
> 
> My curiosity is taking thermal images of the habitat to really see how the heat is being distributed and if the panels are creating basking zones of roughly 4sqft or not. And then I want to see how the shell reacts to 'unfiltered' long wave infrared it's being exposed to. If you had water radiant heat panels technically you would be able to put them really close.. Because no alpha and beta keratin would be superheated because the water hungry infrared has already been filtered. Thus making the panels deep core heating panels which would be magnificent.. And the best idea ever.


I'm in illinois too, north subs, what do you do in winter


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## Jason Gamby

Awesome thread!! So glad I found it. I am going to building an enclosed chamber much like the first picture in Tom's first post. Quick question, what did you line the bottom and first few inches of the sides with? Linoleum? Just curious so that the moist soil doesn't end up rotting the plywood.

Thank you for the replies! 

Jason


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## Tidgy's Dad

Jason Gamby said:


> Awesome thread!! So glad I found it. I am going to building an enclosed chamber much like the first picture in Tom's first post. Quick question, what did you line the bottom and first few inches of the sides with? Linoleum? Just curious so that the moist soil doesn't end up rotting the plywood.
> 
> Thank you for the replies!
> 
> Jason


Many people use a plastic liner, something like a shower curtain.


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## Jason Gamby

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Many people use a plastic liner, something like a shower curtain.



Thanks, I appreciate it! Cheap and easy


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## Phobi

This is great information! thank you so much for putting the time into doing all this.


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## kalei01

Kaliman1962 said:


> I'm in illinois too, north subs, what do you do in winter


I used to live in Arlington heights Illinois but now live in West Texas


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## Mende

All finished with my baby SA Leopard enclosure. Cliamate controlled


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## ZEROPILOT

Here's a closed chamber that I used for my babies.
It's something that can be thrown together in an hour or two and can last untill the baby is a year old.


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## Yvonne G

Here's my version of a closed chamber:







I positioned a sheet of plastic on the table top, then set my light stands on the plastic, then I set the two plastic tubs (baby box turtles on the left and baby leopards on the right) on that. Then I pulled the plastic up and over the light stand. No plastic is touching the lights, so no danger of plastic melting or catching on fire. Then I cut out a servicing hole and taped a piece of plastic sandwich wrap (Saran Wrap) at the top of the hole. Once I'm through adding food and water, I just wet my finger and trace around the plastic sheet's edge, then pull the plastic wrap down and stick it to the wet plastic.

With two tubs under the same plastic, I can position a light over the edge where the two tubs touch each other, and only have to use one light that way.

It's not very pretty, but it works.


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## Mende

Yvonne G said:


> Here's my version of a closed chamber:
> 
> View attachment 212169
> 
> 
> View attachment 212170
> 
> 
> I positioned a sheet of plastic on the table top, then set my light stands on the plastic, then I set the two plastic tubs (baby box turtles on the left and baby leopards on the right) on that. Then I pulled the plastic up and over the light stand. No plastic is touching the lights, so no danger of plastic melting or catching on fire. Then I cut out a servicing hole and taped a piece of plastic sandwich wrap (Saran Wrap) at the top of the hole. Once I'm through adding food and water, I just wet my finger and trace around the plastic sheet's edge, then pull the plastic wrap down and stick it to the wet plastic.
> 
> With two tubs under the same plastic, I can position a light over the edge where the two tubs touch each other, and only have to use one light that way.
> 
> It's not very pretty, but it works.


Very creative old timer. My kids are 6, 4, and 1. I think they would destroy that lol. I can't believe how much more active and over all healthy the baby torts are in a closed chamber. Shout out to you and Tom, I researched your threads.

Bonus pic of the kids grazing the Russians


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## RIO'S MOM

Mende said:


> View attachment 212078
> All finished with my baby SA Leopard enclosure. Cliamate controlled
> View attachment 212076


Looks like a very good beginning for your little one. I see you have your light suspended by a rope or chord. Is that right ? Real good idea to have that really secure. I had originally bought that light fixture. I returned it to get two separate lights. I have a Red Foot. They are not really heavy baskers, prefer the shade areas. I also separated my CHE bulb from my UVB because the timer that runs the UVB bulb is separate from the thermostat the runs the CHE. Your tortoise may have different needs than a Red Foot. I'm no expert, pretty much new to tortoises as of last year. I've only been studying up on Red Foots.
I also see you have room to raise it up as he grows larger to keep the light at a safe distance from him. What is the green light? I'm not familiar with that.
If I may, I do have one suggestion that worked in my enclosure. I ran electric chords through narrow PVC pipes that are screwed to the wall to keep my Rio from biting or breaking them and getting electric shock. I only needed a piece long enough for his reach from the floor. Then I secured the higher part out of his reach to the wall with duct tape.It's still there 10 months later. Just a thought. Nice job.


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## RIO'S MOM

RIO'S MOM said:


> Looks like a very good beginning for your little one.
> .
> If I may, I do have one suggestion that worked in my enclosure. I ran electric chords through narrow PVC pipes that are screwed to the wall to keep my Rio from biting or breaking them and getting electric shock. I only needed a piece long enough for his reach from the floor. Then I secured the higher part out of his reach to the wall with duct tape.It's still there 10 months later. Just a thought. Nice job.


P.s.you can see the PVC holding the thermostat probs in an image two pages back in one of my posts from last year.


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## Meganolvt

For my baby leopard, I put a tub in a tub. The smaller one is the humid side, and has a heat mat under (so there is a heat mat between tubs). This keeps the ecoearth warm and the box humid (usually about 70- 75% and 87- 90 degrees). He goes out his little door to eat and soak, which is also warm (75- 80 degrees) but not humid. So far he seems to be doing great with this set up.
The lid lifts off for easy cleaning and adding water. At the moment my uvb is a coil bulb, but I will be switching to a tube once I figure out how to suspend it. He's only 3 inches SCL, so this is a lot of room for him.


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## vmenagerie

ZEROPILOT said:


> Here's a closed chamber that I used for my babies.
> It's something that can be thrown together in an hour or two and can last untill the baby is a year old.



What size tank is that?


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## kalei01

Can someone look at the picture of his shell and let me know if something is wrong please


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## kalei01

He still eats good and is gaining weight


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## ZEROPILOT

kalei01 said:


> Can someone look at the picture of his shell and let me know if something is wrong please


That is some sort of other physical damage.
Do you have a dog or are there any young children around?


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## kalei01

kalei01 said:


> He still eats good and is gaining weight


No this happend while I was sick and I just put food in there for him and did not take him out to roam I think it happend when his outer shell flared out a little




ZEROPILOT said:


> That is some sort of other physical damage.
> Do you have a dog or are there any young children around?


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## Mende

RIO'S MOM said:


> P.s.you can see the PVC holding the thermostat probs in an image two pages back in one of my posts from last year.



All great advice, thank you. I'm def going to secure the temp and humidity probes better. The green light is an LCD display for temp and humidity that has been moved outside the enclosure. It's also where I set the temp/humidity. I'm going to add another CHE for night time temp control for winter (San Diego lol). All 4 torts seem to be quite happy! Always learning


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## Lindsinic

So I've been reading through this thread for quite some time. It is a LOT to digest, especially for a first-time hatchling tortoise parent. Rocky is a Golden Greek and he's my 9-yr. old son's. My biggest concern at this point is immediately making our tortoise table the proper conditions for him to be healthy. The minor details can be ironed out later, but Rocky needs to stay alive! We would all be devastated if something happened to him because we failed to take care of him properly.

The problem that set us down the possibly wrong path was the advice of our very reputable exotic pet vet and a recommended article by Reptile Magazine. I was under the impression that we'd finally gotten some direction and that Rocky would thrive well in a dry environment, since he's a desert species. I had read many experiences with shell rot because of too much moisture...this scared me. Now after reading through this thread I am confused all over again.

I don't understand why, even a hatchling desert species, would need a tropical rainforest environment when that is nothing like there would ever be in the natural habitat they are born into. This is the biggest thing I'm struggling with. I know quite a few people will say that babies require a different, more moist environment. But they would never have that in the wild. Are captive tortoises trying to be raised to look smoother than they naturally would in the wild?

And the vet as well as some other articles I've read have stressed the importance of air flow (why tall wall glass tanks are not ideal). I was under the impression that improper air flow can lead to respiratory issues. So these "closed chambers" are perplexing to me because they seems to give zero air flow.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning this approach, Tom, I'm just wanting to get an understanding of why I'm getting such polar opposite advice and why placing a desert species hatchling in a completely unnatural environment/climate is what most of you are recommending.

I've attached a pic of our 3'x6' tortoise table and Rocky, as well as a couple of other user's pics as inspiration for how we could possibly create a "humid area" at one end.

Habitat:
3'x6' Tortoise table lined with reptile carpet
18"x18" house with substrate for burrowing
(Removable roof)
One CHE bulb near house opening
One 100w T-Rex Basking/UV bulb
(Tested by vet and told to place 15" above tort)
Very shallow water dish
Log Tunnel
Temp gradient goes from about 80-85 degrees
(I have an infrared temp gun arriving today)

I have some other specific questions but will wait to hear some replies to this first. Thanks!!!


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## Tom

Lindsinic said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning this approach, Tom, I'm just wanting to get an understanding of why I'm getting such polar opposite advice and why placing a desert species hatchling in a completely unnatural environment/climate is what most of you are recommending.
> 
> I have some other specific questions but will wait to hear some replies to this first. Thanks!!!



I'm sooooooo glad you asked these questions and have given me the chance to explain. You are not alone and the conflicting info from multiple 'experts" can be daunting for someone who just wants to give their tortoise a good life. We've been fighting this old, incorrect, often repeated info for many years, and we'll keeping fighting it for years to come. Tortoise lives hang in the balance.

First a disclaimer: I don't keep greeks, golden or otherwise, so I'm not keen on giving advice specific to them. I can, however, explain these concepts in terms that apply to Testudo species in general.

Point 1: I do not recommend that greeks or other temperate species be kept in tropical rainforest conditions. If anyone on this site does recommend such conditions, I will argue against it, and I have done so in the past. For reference, here is my care sheet for russian tortoises: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/ Decidedly NOT tropical or rain forrest conditions.

Point 2: Your tortoise is *NOT NOT NOT* a "desert" species. Neither are mine. In fact, the only species I know of that truly inhabits a real desert is the desert tortoise Gopherus agassizii, and the newly crowned Gopherus morafkai. From the Reptiles Magazine article:
"Greek Tortoise (*Testudo graeca*) Found in North Africa, southwest Asia and southern Europe, the Greek tortoise inhabits a variety of habitats, including some that are particularly *arid*: rocky hillsides,*Mediterranean* scrub, forests, fields and meadows are all occupied by the Greek tortoise subspecies."

Why do I use so much emphasis and make such a big deal about what seems like the semantics of a word? Because for decades the use of this word and the misunderstandings about where our tortoises actually come from has been killing them. Literally. Scrublands, forests, meadows and grasslands all require a substantial amount of annual rainfall and carry some humidity for at least part of the year. Desert conditions kill tortoises. Especially babies.

Along with this point that they are not desert animals:
Desert animals don't live above ground in the hot dry air in the middle of the day. Uromastix might be an exception, but most of them hide from the heat and the sun in some way or other. Our local Desert tortoises go deep underground to escape the deadly desiccating conditions of their hostile environment. Guess what happens when someone reads one of these old, incorrect care sheets about how "desert" tortoises need it hot and dry because they come from a "desert". They die. A large percentage of DT hatchlings die every year because they are trapped above ground in extremely dry and desiccating conditions. Now think about _your_ tortoise kept in those same desiccating conditions with your new knowledge that yours isn't even a desert species. Further, what happens in the wild is wonderful and amazing, but we can't duplicate that in out little boxes in our living rooms. Indoor enclosures in most homes are extremely and very un-naturally dry and desiccating. In the wild, a baby greek is not going to sit out in the open cooking in the sun. It is going to dig in to plant tussocks and root balls for cover and shelter. They hide under and in stuff, and in these environments humidity will be higher than the surrounding open areas. Not necessarily 80-90%, but frequently up to 60-70%. *THIS* is your baby's natural environment. These little protected warm humid micro-climates that exist within the worlds arid regions.

To recap this point:
A. Greeks are not desert species, and neither are most other species we all keep, like my sulcatas or leopard tortoises.
B. What we usually perceive as "desert" conditions is not good for our tortoises. It literally kills them.
C. Even wild desert tortoises avoid desert conditions by going underground.
D. Indoor captive environments are typically WAYYYYY too dry due to home heating, air conditioning and our heating and lighting products.
E. Decades of experience, trial and error have taught me and many others, that even though it might not seem logical or appropriate, baby tortoises thrive in the conditions we are describing. Can they survive harsher conditions in the wild? Sometimes. But sometimes they die. Somewhere between 300-1000 baby tortoise die in the wild for every one that makes it to adulthood.

Point 3: Glass tanks and closed chambers. These assertions that glass tanks cause stress, restrict airflow, cause respiratory infections, etc..., is a bunch of hogwash. Totally false. Wrong. Incorrect. Not accurate. How do I know? Because I've been using them to raise all manner of chelonians and other reptiles since 1979, and I've never had any of those problems. Many other experienced keepers share my experience. If any of those assertions were true, wouldn't I have had at least one instance of these reported problems? I've raised literally hundreds of babies in glass tanks, but none of these reported "problems" has ever occurred. This is an often repeated incorrect myth.

Restricted air flow? If the room air is cold and dry, don't you _want_ to restrict it from flowing into your tortoises enclosure and chilling him/her while dehydrating him/her at the same time? I do. Know why I wear a jacket on cold windy days? Because it restricts air flow. Know why I don't wear a jacket on hot days? Because it restricts air flow. If the room air where your tortoise's enclsoure is located is the correct temperature and humidity for your individual tortoise based on its age, size and species, then air flow is fine. If the air is too cold or too dry, then restricting air flow is _exactly_ the point.

How about "glass tanks hold in heat"? Right. What is that little bulb over each of our enclosures doing? It is supposed to be _heating_ the environment for our cold blooded animals. Holding in some of that heat sounds like a terrific idea, not a bad one. If we hold in some of our electrically generated heat, we can use lower wattage bulbs to reduce energy use, keep the tortoise warmer, and reduce the desiccating IR-A effects of our incandescent bulbs.

Closed chambers: The basic concept is to close off some air space and only spend enough electricity to heat and manage that smaller air space, rather than fighting physics with an open top. No one ever said that a closed chamber had to be hot and humid all the time. A closed chamber simply allows to user to easily maintain whatever conditions are desired by giving them a smaller, contained air space to manage.

Point 4: Your enclosure is a nice size. I would change a few things:
1. Add about 4" of damp substrate. I like coco coir best for baby Testudo. Hand pack it to reduce messiness, and buy it in bulk online or at a garden center to save a bunch of money over pet store prices. I prefer fine grade orchid bark for Testudo once they reach about 3-4". You need to soak your baby every day to prevent organ damage in your current dry enclosure. It can happen in one day.
2. Those ramped water bowls are great for lizards and snakes, but they are literally death traps for tortoises. They are a very real flipping/drowning hazard. You should replace it immediately. Terra cotta plant saucers sunk into the substrate work best.
3. Its great that your vet tests bulbs for his clients, but _you_ need to test your own bulb in _your_ enclosure. Many factors influence how much UV gets tot he tortoise and the current crop of MVBs appears to be ineffective as a UV source after about 3 months. Only a UV meter under your bulb can verify or deny this. Here is the meter to get: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html


Keep those questions coming, and lets talk about these things some more.


----------



## Lindsinic

Tom,

SUCH helpful information. Thank you so much! We will get things fixed up in the tortoise table. Questions:

1) do you recommend the piled substrate be everywhere or can there be some areas of just reptile carpet and some areas where it ramps up into deeper, moist substrate?

2) humidity, as is, is reading 52%. Will moist substrate alone help enough that covering the entire top will not be necessary? Having a hard time figuring out how we would safely and effectively cover the table and work around the two bulbs/house roof. What about a couple of "panels" that could cover a majority of the top to keep some heat and moisture in? Definitely wouldn't be a closed chamber, though.

3) UV meter added to Amazon cart. Wow...pricey! Is it necessary to have one this expensive? Any other recommendations? Do you have some guidance on what UV range I am needing to achieve for a Golden Greek hatchling?

4) Water bowl removed. Will use terra cotta planter bowls as you suggested. One for feeding, one for water?

5) Do you know of a tortoise calcium powder supplement that has dosages per weight of tortoise instead of poundage of food? The National Geographic powder we have says 1/2 tsp. per lb. of food. Rocky eats a minuscule fraction of a pound. How can I possibly know how much powder to use?? But if I could portion out based on his weight that would be so much easier and safer. See photo.

6) do you have to make the coconut coir moist by spraying with water? Is what I already have the same as what you're referring to? See photo.




Tom said:


> I'm sooooooo glad you asked these questions and have given me the chance to explain. You are not alone and the conflicting info from multiple 'experts" can be daunting for someone who just wants to give their tortoise a good life. We've been fighting this old, incorrect, often repeated info for many years, and we'll keeping fighting it for years to come. Tortoise lives hang in the balance.
> 
> First a disclaimer: I don't keep greeks, golden or otherwise, so I'm not keen on giving advice specific to them. I can, however, explain these concepts in terms that apply to Testudo species in general.
> 
> Point 1: I do not recommend that greeks or other temperate species be kept in tropical rainforest conditions. If anyone on this site does recommend such conditions, I will argue against it, and I have done so in the past. For reference, here is my care sheet for russian tortoises: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/ Decidedly NOT tropical or rain forrest conditions.
> 
> Point 2: Your tortoise is *NOT NOT NOT* a "desert" species. Neither are mine. In fact, the only species I know of that truly inhabits a real desert is the desert tortoise Gopherus agassizii, and the newly crowned Gopherus morafkai. From the Reptiles Magazine article:
> "Greek Tortoise (*Testudo graeca*) Found in North Africa, southwest Asia and southern Europe, the Greek tortoise inhabits a variety of habitats, including some that are particularly *arid*: rocky hillsides,*Mediterranean* scrub, forests, fields and meadows are all occupied by the Greek tortoise subspecies."
> 
> Why do I use so much emphasis and make such a big deal about what seems like the semantics of a word? Because for decades the use of this word and the misunderstandings about where our tortoises actually come from has been killing them. Literally. Scrublands, forests, meadows and grasslands all require a substantial amount of annual rainfall and carry some humidity for at least part of the year. Desert conditions kill tortoises. Especially babies.
> 
> Along with this point that they are not desert animals:
> Desert animals don't live above ground in the hot dry air in the middle of the day. Uromastix might be an exception, but most of them hide from the heat and the sun in some way or other. Our local Desert tortoises go deep underground to escape the deadly desiccating conditions of their hostile environment. Guess what happens when someone reads one of these old, incorrect care sheets about how "desert" tortoises need it hot and dry because they come from a "desert". They die. A large percentage of DT hatchlings die every year because they are trapped above ground in extremely dry and desiccating conditions. Now think about _your_ tortoise kept in those same desiccating conditions with your new knowledge that yours isn't even a desert species. Further, what happens in the wild is wonderful and amazing, but we can't duplicate that in out little boxes in our living rooms. Indoor enclosures in most homes are extremely and very un-naturally dry and desiccating. In the wild, a baby greek is not going to sit out in the open cooking in the sun. It is going to dig in to plant tussocks and root balls for cover and shelter. They hide under and in stuff, and in these environments humidity will be higher than the surrounding open areas. Not necessarily 80-90%, but frequently up to 60-70%. *THIS* is your baby's natural environment. These little protected warm humid micro-climates that exist within the worlds arid regions.
> 
> To recap this point:
> A. Greeks are not desert species, and neither are most other species we all keep, like my sulcatas or leopard tortoises.
> B. What we usually perceive as "desert" conditions is not good for our tortoises. It literally kills them.
> C. Even wild desert tortoises avoid desert conditions by going underground.
> D. Indoor captive environments are typically WAYYYYY too dry due to home heating, air conditioning and our heating and lighting products.
> E. Decades of experience, trial and error have taught me and many others, that even though it might not seem logical or appropriate, baby tortoises thrive in the conditions we are describing. Can they survive harsher conditions in the wild? Sometimes. But sometimes they die. Somewhere between 300-1000 baby tortoise die in the wild for every one that makes it to adulthood.
> 
> Point 3: Glass tanks and closed chambers. These assertions that glass tanks cause stress, restrict airflow, cause respiratory infections, etc..., is a bunch of hogwash. Totally false. Wrong. Incorrect. Not accurate. How do I know? Because I've been using them to raise all manner of chelonians and other reptiles since 1979, and I've never had any of those problems. Many other experienced keepers share my experience. If any of those assertions were true, wouldn't I have had at least one instance of these reported problems? I've raised literally hundreds of babies in glass tanks, but none of these reported "problems" has ever occurred. This is an often repeated incorrect myth.
> 
> Restricted air flow? If the room air is cold and dry, don't you _want_ to restrict it from flowing into your tortoises enclosure and chilling him/her while dehydrating him/her at the same time? I do. Know why I wear a jacket on cold windy days? Because it restricts air flow. Know why I don't wear a jacket on hot days? Because it restricts air flow. If the room air where your tortoise's enclsoure is located is the correct temperature and humidity for your individual tortoise based on its age, size and species, then air flow is fine. If the air is too cold or too dry, then restricting air flow is _exactly_ the point.
> 
> How about "glass tanks hold in heat"? Right. What is that little bulb over each of our enclosures doing? It is supposed to be _heating_ the environment for our cold blooded animals. Holding in some of that heat sounds like a terrific idea, not a bad one. If we hold in some of our electrically generated heat, we can use lower wattage bulbs to reduce energy use, keep the tortoise warmer, and reduce the desiccating IR-A effects of our incandescent bulbs.
> 
> Closed chambers: The basic concept is to close off some air space and only spend enough electricity to heat and manage that smaller air space, rather than fighting physics with an open top. No one ever said that a closed chamber had to be hot and humid all the time. A closed chamber simply allows to user to easily maintain whatever conditions are desired by giving them a smaller, contained air space to manage.
> 
> Point 4: Your enclosure is a nice size. I would change a few things:
> 1. Add about 4" of damp substrate. I like coco coir best for baby Testudo. Hand pack it to reduce messiness, and buy it in bulk online or at a garden center to save a bunch of money over pet store prices. I prefer fine grade orchid bark for Testudo once they reach about 3-4". You need to soak your baby every day to prevent organ damage in your current dry enclosure. It can happen in one day.
> 2. Those ramped water bowls are great for lizards and snakes, but they are literally death traps for tortoises. They are a very real flipping/drowning hazard. You should replace it immediately. Terra cotta plant saucers sunk into the substrate work best.
> 3. Its great that your vet tests bulbs for his clients, but _you_ need to test your own bulb in _your_ enclosure. Many factors influence how much UV gets tot he tortoise and the current crop of MVBs appears to be ineffective as a UV source after about 3 months. Only a UV meter under your bulb can verify or deny this. Here is the meter to get: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html
> 
> 
> Keep those questions coming, and lets talk about these things some more.


----------



## Tom

Lindsinic said:


> Tom,
> 
> SUCH helpful information. Thank you so much! We will get things fixed up in the tortoise table. Questions:
> 
> 1) do you recommend the piled substrate be everywhere or can there be some areas of just reptile carpet and some areas where it ramps up into deeper, moist substrate?
> 
> 2) humidity, as is, is reading 52%. Will moist substrate alone help enough that covering the entire top will not be necessary? Having a hard time figuring out how we would safely and effectively cover the table and work around the two bulbs/house roof. What about a couple of "panels" that could cover a majority of the top to keep some heat and moisture in? Definitely wouldn't be a closed chamber, though.
> 
> 3) UV meter added to Amazon cart. Wow...pricey! Is it necessary to have one this expensive? Any other recommendations? Do you have some guidance on what UV range I am needing to achieve for a Golden Greek hatchling?
> 
> 4) Water bowl removed. Will use terra cotta planter bowls as you suggested. One for feeding, one for water?
> 
> 5) Do you know of a tortoise calcium powder supplement that has dosages per weight of tortoise instead of poundage of food? The National Geographic powder we have says 1/2 tsp. per lb. of food. Rocky eats a minuscule fraction of a pound. How can I possibly know how much powder to use?? But if I could portion out based on his weight that would be so much easier and safer. See photo.
> 
> 6) do you have to make the coconut coir moist by spraying with water? Is what I already have the same as what you're referring to? See photo.



1) I recommend the substrate be everywhere. How much water to add and how often depends on many factors. You'll have to do it by feel. No need for it to be wet. Just a little damp in the lower levels.
2) I found it hard to believe that you have 52% humidity in an open table, so I went back and studied the photos. Looks like you are using one of those dial type stick on hygrometers. Those are notoriously inaccurate and unreliable. You can get a decent digital one for about $8 at Lowes or Home Depot. If you read my care sheet, you'll see that I don't think a full closed chamber is necessary for Testudo. I don't have much greek experience, but its not needed for other similar species. With damp substrate and a humid hide, your tortoise should be able to find the moderate humidity and microclimates it needs.
3) That is the only meter I know of that works for our purposes. We used to use the 6.2, but the 6.5 more accurately addresses the spectrum that we need for our tortoises. Yes it is costly, but its a lot cheaper than treating MBD with your vet, and over time it will save you money since you won't be replacing bulbs unless you actually _need _to replace them. There is much we don't know about UV and how our reptiles use it. I like is UVI reading around 3-5 and I put my bulbs on timers to come on mid day for 3-4 hours to simulate the mid day UV spike that happens outside. You don't have that option with your MVB, which is one reason I prefer regular flood bulbs and UV tubes.
4) Yes. Terra cotta saucers work perfectly as food _and_ water bowls.
5) This is another area of debate with no scientifically studied and defined answer. No one knows how much they need or how often, and it will vary according to many factors including size, growth, sex, season, diet, etc... I like to use a tiny pinch twice a week.
6) Spraying the surface doesn't do much. You need to dump water into the substrate. As long as there is no poop, I usually dump the water bowl into the drier areas and rinse and refill daily. You might ned to do this every other day, or every day might not be enough, and you;ll need to add even more. It can change seasonally with heat, cold, AC, ambient humidity, etc... The stuff you have there would be good for an adult, but I think it is too coarse for your baby. Coir will be finer. Also, buying that brand froma pet store is prohibitively expensive. You can get it much cheaper in bulk at a garden center or nursery. You are not likely to find it at HD or Lowes.


Does this mean my above explanation in the previous post made sense? Not advocating all wet and sloppy humid all the time for a Testudo species. Just recommending some moderate humidity and the ability for the tortoise to make its own moist microclimates as they would do in the wild by digging in.


----------



## Lindsinic

I see that the Coconut Coir tends to come compressed in bricks. Any idea how much I might need for my 3'x6' table?

I'll grab a digital hygrometer tonight at Lowe's.

How often do you replace all of the substrate to prevent it from smelling?

When this T-Rex bulb goes bad maybe we'll consider separating the basking and UV bulbs.

I'll post a pic once we get table fixed up.

Thank you again...very helpful!



Lindsinic said:


> Tom,
> 
> SUCH helpful information. Thank you so much! We will get things fixed up in the tortoise table. Questions:
> 
> 1) do you recommend the piled substrate be everywhere or can there be some areas of just reptile carpet and some areas where it ramps up into deeper, moist substrate?
> 
> 2) humidity, as is, is reading 52%. Will moist substrate alone help enough that covering the entire top will not be necessary? Having a hard time figuring out how we would safely and effectively cover the table and work around the two bulbs/house roof. What about a couple of "panels" that could cover a majority of the top to keep some heat and moisture in? Definitely wouldn't be a closed chamber, though.
> 
> 3) UV meter added to Amazon cart. Wow...pricey! Is it necessary to have one this expensive? Any other recommendations? Do you have some guidance on what UV range I am needing to achieve for a Golden Greek hatchling?
> 
> 4) Water bowl removed. Will use terra cotta planter bowls as you suggested. One for feeding, one for water?
> 
> 5) Do you know of a tortoise calcium powder supplement that has dosages per weight of tortoise instead of poundage of food? The National Geographic powder we have says 1/2 tsp. per lb. of food. Rocky eats a minuscule fraction of a pound. How can I possibly know how much powder to use?? But if I could portion out based on his weight that would be so much easier and safer. See photo.
> 
> 6) do you have to make the coconut coir moist by spraying with water? Is what I already have the same as what you're referring to? See photo.





Tom said:


> 1) I recommend the substrate be everywhere. How much water to add and how often depends on many factors. You'll have to do it by feel. No need for it to be wet. Just a little damp in the lower levels.
> 2) I found it hard to believe that you have 52% humidity in an open table, so I went back and studied the photos. Looks like you are using one of those dial type stick on hygrometers. Those are notoriously inaccurate and unreliable. You can get a decent digital one for about $8 at Lowes or Home Depot. If you read my care sheet, you'll see that I don't think a full closed chamber is necessary for Testudo. I don't have much greek experience, but its not needed for other similar species. With damp substrate and a humid hide, your tortoise should be able to find the moderate humidity and microclimates it needs.
> 3) That is the only meter I know of that works for our purposes. We used to use the 6.2, but the 6.5 more accurately addresses the spectrum that we need for our tortoises. Yes it is costly, but its a lot cheaper than treating MBD with your vet, and over time it will save you money since you won't be replacing bulbs unless you actually _need _to replace them. There is much we don't know about UV and how our reptiles use it. I like is UVI reading around 3-5 and I put my bulbs on timers to come on mid day for 3-4 hours to simulate the mid day UV spike that happens outside. You don't have that option with your MVB, which is one reason I prefer regular flood bulbs and UV tubes.
> 4) Yes. Terra cotta saucers work perfectly as food _and_ water bowls.
> 5) This is another area of debate with no scientifically studied and defined answer. No one knows how much they need or how often, and it will vary according to many factors including size, growth, sex, season, diet, etc... I like to use a tiny pinch twice a week.
> 6) Spraying the surface doesn't do much. You need to dump water into the substrate. As long as there is no poop, I usually dump the water bowl into the drier areas and rinse and refill daily. You might ned to do this every other day, or every day might not be enough, and you;ll need to add even more. It can change seasonally with heat, cold, AC, ambient humidity, etc... The stuff you have there would be good for an adult, but I think it is too coarse for your baby. Coir will be finer. Also, buying that brand froma pet store is prohibitively expensive. You can get it much cheaper in bulk at a garden center or nursery. You are not likely to find it at HD or Lowes.
> 
> 
> Does this mean my above explanation in the previous post made sense? Not advocating all wet and sloppy humid all the time for a Testudo species. Just recommending some moderate humidity and the ability for the tortoise to make its own moist microclimates as they would do in the wild by digging in.


----------



## Tom

Lindsinic said:


> I see that the Coconut Coir tends to come compressed in bricks. Any idea how much I might need for my 3'x6' table?
> 
> I'll grab a digital hygrometer tonight at Lowe's.
> 
> How often do you replace all of the substrate to prevent it from smelling?
> 
> When this T-Rex bulb goes bad maybe we'll consider separating the basking and UV bulbs.
> 
> I'll post a pic once we get table fixed up.
> 
> Thank you again...very helpful!



I would go to a garden center or nursery for your substrate. You'll probably need 20-30 bricks for a table that size and that will cost you a fortune at a per store. You can get the equivalent of those 20-30 bricks in bulk for about $12 at a local nursery. They will know it as coco coir or finely ground coconut husk. It comes in giant blocks and you can rehydrate it in a 5 gallon bucket.

I never replace the bedding, unless that tortoise moves out and a new one moves in. If you soak regularly, most of the pooping and peeing will happen in the soak water. Then all you have to do is spot clean leftover food and the substrate stays clean.


----------



## Lindsinic

Alright, Tom, here are the changes we've made so far. See pics. Complete layer of rehydrated coconut coir. Deeper in the house. Put a digital thermometer/hygrometer in the house. Used planter saucers for shallow water and food. Put water near CHE area in hopes it would prevent water from getting cold. 

Bought this thing of wheat grass and pet grass at the grocery. Thought about planting it in the corner and seeing what happens. Thoughts?

Pretty concerned about temps in general. Can't seem to keep environment warm and moist substrate seems cold to the touch. 

Basking region reading: 81 degrees
CHE region reading: 83 degrees
Inside house reading: 70 degrees at substrate, 65% humidity
Outside house away from CHE reading: 65 degrees

Entire upstairs thermostat is set to 73 degrees.

I definitely need advice on this please.





Tom said:


> I would go to a garden center or nursery for your substrate. You'll probably need 20-30 bricks for a table that size and that will cost you a fortune at a per store. You can get the equivalent of those 20-30 bricks in bulk for about $12 at a local nursery. They will know it as coco coir or finely ground coconut husk. It comes in giant blocks and you can rehydrate it in a 5 gallon bucket.
> 
> I never replace the bedding, unless that tortoise moves out and a new one moves in. If you soak regularly, most of the pooping and peeing will happen in the soak water. Then all you have to do is spot clean leftover food and the substrate stays clean.


----------



## Lindsinic

We have added to the tortoise table design. It now has a large "lid". I can immediately tell it is retaining so much more heat and humidity. My fear is that it will get too hot. I set the timers to turn CHE bulb on every two hours for one hour pretty much 24 hrs a day. UV/basking is set to be on full time between 8 am - 8 pm. What changes would you advise?


----------



## Tom

Lindsinic said:


> We have added to the tortoise table design. It now has a large "lid". I can immediately tell it is retaining so much more heat and humidity. My fear is that it will get too hot. I set the timers to turn CHE bulb on every two hours for one hour pretty much 24 hrs a day. UV/basking is set to be on full time between 8 am - 8 pm. What changes would you advise?



Your CHE needs to run through a thermostat, not a timer. Just set the temp where you want it, and it will do the work for you. In a large enclosure like yours, you might need two CHEs to spread the heat out a bit.

If you find the enclosure is getting too hot from the use of the basking bulb, use a smaller bulb. I use 65 watt flood bulbs in my 4x8' chambers.


----------



## Lindsinic

Do you recommend a specific thermostat?



Tom said:


> Your CHE needs to run through a thermostat, not a timer. Just set the temp where you want it, and it will do the work for you. In a large enclosure like yours, you might need two CHEs to spread the heat out a bit.
> 
> If you find the enclosure is getting too hot from the use of the basking bulb, use a smaller bulb. I use 65 watt flood bulbs in my 4x8' chambers.


----------



## Tom

Lindsinic said:


> Do you recommend a specific thermostat?



Any should work. You can get a fancy Helix digital proportional one for about $140, or you can get a Ranco higher end on/off type for about $80, or you can get the cheaper $30 ones. All work.


----------



## Lindsinic

How about this one? Will it serve my needs?

Inkbird ITC-306T Pre-wired Electronic Heating Thermostat Temperature Controller and ... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01486LZ50/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20


----------



## Tom

Lindsinic said:


> How about this one? Will it serve my needs?
> 
> Inkbird ITC-306T Pre-wired Electronic Heating Thermostat Temperature Controller and ... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01486LZ50/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20



I have no experience with that one, but it looks like it would work. Says its rated to 1200 watts of output which is WAAAAAAYYY more than anyone should need for a single enclosure.

I've used these two, plus the previously mentioned Ranco and Helix:
https://www.lllreptile.com/products/13883-zilla-1000-watt-temperature-controller
https://www.hydrofarm.com/p/MTPRTC

All of the above have worked very well for me in a wide variety of applications.


----------



## kalei01

Tom said:


> Any should work. You can get a fancy Helix digital proportional one for about $140, or you can get a Ranco higher end on/off type for about $80, or you can get the cheaper $30 ones. All work.


@Tom my tortoise with the extra/split scute is causing some irregular growth or rough growth is that a concern or is it okay


----------



## Tom

kalei01 said:


> @Tom my tortoise with the extra/split scute is causing some irregular growth or rough growth is that a concern or is it okay



That is pretty normal. I usually see some unusual growth around aberrant scutes of any kind. Its not a problem and in time it usually fades away and becomes less noticeable.


----------



## ERoss

Tom said:


> Been meaning to do this one for a while now...
> 
> Over the years I have kept a lot of reptiles in a lot of different ways. I've learned a lot of stuff about a lot of species. Since finding and joining this forum almost two years ago, I've learned a TON more. Now I'm not just stumbling around alone in the dark. Now, with the help of all the fantastic TFO members, I can see and experience everyone else's enclosures and styles too.
> 
> There are a lot of good ways to house a tortoise indoors. Tank, tub, trough, table, and... closed chamber. Different methods work best for the various species and ages. Through all of my "experiments" and sharing the vast experience of others here on the forum, I have reached my current conclusion that "closed chambers", with a basking lamp inside, are the best means of housing the babies of most species. Everyone's situation is different, and we all live in different climates... heck our torts are all from different climates too. Still, overall, I have personally experienced the best results and seen the best results from others, in this style of enclosure. Several people come to mind, but Tyler, Neal, Kristina and KBaker, have especially shown their enclosures and the results. There are lots of others too, but these members have had the biggest influence on me recently.
> 
> Only in a closed chamber can I control the humidity properly. Its very dry where I live, and its a constant battle to maintain any humidity at all in most enclosures. In a closed chamber, its a piece of cake. I've used glass tanks and various styles of tortoise tables for years to house my chelonians, but the open tops let out all that beneficial humidity and heat. By putting my heat lamps and CHEs INSIDE the closed enclosure, they do NOT dry things out AND they use a lot less power to give me the same amount of heat. Plus, once they heat everything up and the thermostat kicks them off, the heat just stays in there. I'm using less electricity on my 4x8' closed chamber than I am on my 40 gallon open topped glass tank! (I have little electric meters called "Kill-A-Watt EZ"). The humidity is lower directly under the heat lamp, but its as high as I want to keep it all around that area and the rest of the enclosure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In theory this all sounds reasonable, but what happens in the real world? I've gotten the best results I've ever gotten in this type of enclosure. On a lot of my glass tanks I end up covering as much of the top as I can. It seems like the more and better I cover them, the better the results I get. But I still lose all my heat and humidity out of the hole that has to be there for my light fixtures. Like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This leads me to a big problem that has come up recently with several potential new tortoise keepers. Where does one go buy a "closed tortoise chamber" for their new pet? Most conventional enclosures are too shallow to have a closed top and still allow enough room for a hanging fixture with a hot bulb in it. I like the Vision tubs, but they are too short for this purpose. My leopard enclosure is 24" tall and that just barely accommodates things safely. When I build the next one it will be around 30" tall. I have not seen a pre-made enclosure with the right dimensions. Tyler showed me this one that he is using. I can't remember which species he is housing in this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember we are talking about housing babies. Not adults or even juveniles. Discussion is welcome here. I'm always wanting to learn more.



Hi everyone, 

I am new to the forum and am trying to do as much research as I can about sulcata's as my husband and I would like to get one in about a year. I was wondering if an indoor enclosure like this could be set up on our porch which is covered as we do not have a big enough space to put a 4'x8' enclosure inside the house and we do not have a garage. The main thing I would be worried about is how hot it gets in the summer. We live in Northern California close to Sacramento. We have had multiple days over 110f this summer. The enclosure would be shaded on the porch and we would be insulating the enclosure. Just wondering people's thoughts on this idea I don't want to do the wrong thing and end up hurting the tort! Thanks for supplying all of this great information!!


----------



## Tom

It will be difficult to maintain the correct temperatures with the enclosure outside. WIth your below freezing winter nights and your 110 degree summer days, it isn't going to work well.

If you don't have room to start a baby indoors, how about adopting an older tortoise in need of a home that is of the right size (12"+) to live outside full time.


----------



## ERoss

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the reply, yeah that's what I was worried about. We will re asses when the house is finished (currently we are building it) and if we cannot figure out a space inside that is big enough we will look into adopting an older tortoise. We live on a ranch and have plenty of room outside so I'm just worried about the indoor space. 

Thanks!


----------



## KevinGG

@Tom How have your unfinished plywood enclosures held up with the high humidity? Any mold? I know Mark really water proofs his. Wondering if this will be necessary for me or not. Thanks.


----------



## Tom

KevinGG said:


> @Tom How have your unfinished plywood enclosures held up with the high humidity? Any mold? I know Mark really water proofs his. Wondering if this will be necessary for me or not. Thanks.



Sides and tops hold up fine completely untreated, but the bottoms have been rotting out. Plastic liners, paint, and DryLok have all failed. Next one will get this: http://www.pondarmor.com 
That should solve the problem once and for all.

In the past I also used non-toxic boat hull paint and that worked well, but it was expensive. $100 for the primer and $130 for the paint, plus tax and shipping.


----------



## KevinGG

Tom said:


> Sides and tops hold up fine completely untreated, but the bottoms have been rotting out. Plastic liners, paint, and DryLok have all failed. Next one will get this: http://www.pondarmor.com
> That should solve the problem once and for all.
> 
> In the past I also used non-toxic boat hull paint and that worked well, but it was expensive. $100 for the primer and $130 for the paint, plus tax and shipping.



Cool. Will check out pond armor. Have you tried a pond liner?


----------



## Tom

KevinGG said:


> Cool. Will check out pond armor. Have you tried a pond liner?



No, but I used some pretty thick plastic the last time and their nails and shells have worn through it.


----------



## ERoss

Is there a reason that plexiglass is not used instead of plywood so that there isn't a rotting issue?


----------



## KevinGG

ERoss said:


> Is there a reason that plexiglass is not used instead of plywood so that there isn't a rotting issue?



Expense. These are pretty big enclosures. I'm building an 8x4x4 enclosure now. That would be considerably more expensive. Also can't insulate plexiglass.


----------



## Tom

ERoss said:


> Is there a reason that plexiglass is not used instead of plywood so that there isn't a rotting issue?



Cost and ease of working with the material. If you are comfortable working with plexi, go for it!

I've decided it is going to be easier to just buy plastic cages, instead of building them. Finally found a type that suits my needs:
http://www.apcages.com/home/terrestrial/terrestrial.htm


----------



## ERoss

Thanks @KevinGG and @Tom. I hadn't thought of the insulation issue.


----------



## John Alford

Tom said:


> Been meaning to do this one for a while now...
> 
> Over the years I have kept a lot of reptiles in a lot of different ways. I've learned a lot of stuff about a lot of species. Since finding and joining this forum almost two years ago, I've learned a TON more. Now I'm not just stumbling around alone in the dark. Now, with the help of all the fantastic TFO members, I can see and experience everyone else's enclosures and styles too.
> 
> There are a lot of good ways to house a tortoise indoors. Tank, tub, trough, table, and... closed chamber. Different methods work best for the various species and ages. Through all of my "experiments" and sharing the vast experience of others here on the forum, I have reached my current conclusion that "closed chambers", with a basking lamp inside, are the best means of housing the babies of most species. Everyone's situation is different, and we all live in different climates... heck our torts are all from different climates too. Still, overall, I have personally experienced the best results and seen the best results from others, in this style of enclosure. Several people come to mind, but Tyler, Neal, Kristina and KBaker, have especially shown their enclosures and the results. There are lots of others too, but these members have had the biggest influence on me recently.
> 
> Only in a closed chamber can I control the humidity properly. Its very dry where I live, and its a constant battle to maintain any humidity at all in most enclosures. In a closed chamber, its a piece of cake. I've used glass tanks and various styles of tortoise tables for years to house my chelonians, but the open tops let out all that beneficial humidity and heat. By putting my heat lamps and CHEs INSIDE the closed enclosure, they do NOT dry things out AND they use a lot less power to give me the same amount of heat. Plus, once they heat everything up and the thermostat kicks them off, the heat just stays in there. I'm using less electricity on my 4x8' closed chamber than I am on my 40 gallon open topped glass tank! (I have little electric meters called "Kill-A-Watt EZ"). The humidity is lower directly under the heat lamp, but its as high as I want to keep it all around that area and the rest of the enclosure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In theory this all sounds reasonable, but what happens in the real world? I've gotten the best results I've ever gotten in this type of enclosure. On a lot of my glass tanks I end up covering as much of the top as I can. It seems like the more and better I cover them, the better the results I get. But I still lose all my heat and humidity out of the hole that has to be there for my light fixtures. Like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This leads me to a big problem that has come up recently with several potential new tortoise keepers. Where does one go buy a "closed tortoise chamber" for their new pet? Most conventional enclosures are too shallow to have a closed top and still allow enough room for a hanging fixture with a hot bulb in it. I like the Vision tubs, but they are too short for this purpose. My leopard enclosure is 24" tall and that just barely accommodates things safely. When I build the next one it will be around 30" tall. I have not seen a pre-made enclosure with the right dimensions. Tyler showed me this one that he is using. I can't remember which species he is housing in this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember we are talking about housing babies. Not adults or even juveniles. Discussion is welcome here. I'm always wanting to learn more.


This looks perfect! But was it difficult to build because I am quite hopeless at woodworking and building In general


----------



## Tom

John Alford said:


> This looks perfect! But was it difficult to build because I am quite hopeless at woodworking and building In general


Not difficult at all. Very simple to do.


----------



## John Alford

Oh ok, I’ll be sure to try. How much would it cost


----------



## Tom

John Alford said:


> Oh ok, I’ll be sure to try. How much would it cost



Depends on how you build it. If it is indoors and the room is kept heated in winter, then you probably won't need to make it double layered with insulation. You'll need a sheet of plywood for the top and bottom, then a third sheet can make up the back and sides. The front will be the biggest challenge. You'll have to figure out what to use over there to make it.

Over here, with paint and primer, screws, sealant and all the other stuff, its about $300.


----------



## kobe629

I was wondering at what age do you stop using the closed chamber setup for less humidity?


----------



## Erik Elvis

kobe629 said:


> I was wondering at what age do you stop using the closed chamber setup for less humidity?



I was wondering this too for a sulcata.


----------



## Tom

kobe629 said:


> I was wondering at what age do you stop using the closed chamber setup for less humidity?



Pyramiding is _caused _ by growth in conditions that are too dry. So as long as the tortoise is growing, you need that humidity. The best looking sulcatas are grown in FL, Louisiana and SE TX here in the USA.

In a practical sense, I try to raise them mostly indoors until they are too big to live in a 4x8' closed chamber. When they are around 10", I move them outside full time. My climate is very dry and this transition slows their growth and ruins the smooth and symmetrical growth that I get with them indoors. I use tubs of water inside their heated night boxes to offer some humidity some of the time, but the dry climate really takes a toll. They have a few years of some pretty rough looking growth, and then at about 40-50 pounds, things begin to smooth out and look good again.


----------



## Ramsey

Tom said:


> Pyramiding is _caused _ by growth in conditions that are too dry. So as long as the tortoise is growing, you need that humidity. The best looking sulcatas are grown in FL, Louisiana and SE TX here in the USA.
> 
> In a practical sense, I try to raise them mostly indoors until they are too big to live in a 4x8' closed chamber. When they are around 10", I move them outside full time. My climate is very dry and this transition slows their growth and ruins the smooth and symmetrical growth that I get with them indoors. I use tubs of water inside their heated night boxes to offer some humidity some of the time, but the dry climate really takes a toll. They have a few years of some pretty rough looking growth, and then at about 40-50 pounds, things begin to smooth out and look good again.



Interesting. My climate is very similar down here. I was wondering how effective keeping the outdoor night-boxes humid via controlled methods like a humidifier are.

Do you know?

So once they move outside, will the 8+ hrs a day they spend in the night boxes have a large positive impact if they are kept high humidity during this time?


----------



## Tom

Ramsey said:


> Interesting. My climate is very similar down here. I was wondering how effective keeping the outdoor night-boxes humid via controlled methods like a humidifier are.
> 
> Do you know?
> 
> So once they move outside, will the 8+ hrs a day they spend in the night boxes have a large positive impact if they are kept high humidity during this time?



I don't use humidifiers. I just use tubs or buckets of water and that does it well enough for my tortoises. Humidification of the night boxes does seem to help smooth out the growth on my tortoises.


----------



## trickspiration

@Tom @Yvonne G what top would you recommend for this enclosure setup to maintain heat and humidity better? 

Currently we have an open topped cement mixing bin with coco coir substrate and the heat lamp is affixed to the side of the bin to vertically hang over it. We bring our baby Greek outside for 1 hr each day for UV exposure and natural sunlight. Temps on the cooler side have been kept at mid 70s and humidity between 60-70% (read from digital hygrometer). Basking area is 95-100 and warmer is high 80s. 

Suggestions for changes?


----------



## JoesMum

You could try a mini ‘greenhouse’ like this to provide a closed chamber. This one can be bought on Amazon UK. I assume they sell similar in the USA.


----------



## Tom

trickspiration said:


> @Tom @Yvonne G what top would you recommend for this enclosure setup to maintain heat and humidity better?
> 
> Currently we have an open topped cement mixing bin with coco coir substrate and the heat lamp is affixed to the side of the bin to vertically hang over it. We bring our baby Greek outside for 1 hr each day for UV exposure and natural sunlight. Temps on the cooler side have been kept at mid 70s and humidity between 60-70% (read from digital hygrometer). Basking area is 95-100 and warmer is high 80s.
> 
> Suggestions for changes?



I'd recommend a different enclosure that is a closed chamber instead of an open tub.


----------



## trickspiration

Tom said:


> I'd recommend a different enclosure that is a closed chamber instead of an open tub.



Should it be an entirely closed chamber or can it be partially closed? If partially closed, should the closed portion be on the cooler side or warmer side (where the heat lamp is)? And this would help with maintaining humidity and temperatures, correct?


----------



## Tom

trickspiration said:


> Should it be an entirely closed chamber or can it be partially closed? If partially closed, should the closed portion be on the cooler side or warmer side (where the heat lamp is)? And this would help with maintaining humidity and temperatures, correct?



Any opening is going to let all your warm humid air out. It does not need to be air tight, but openings and air vents will completely defeat the purpose of making it a "closed" chamber. They get plenty of air from all the leaks around the doors and the rest of the enclosure, and whenever you open the doors for daily maintenance like feeding, cleaning, changing the waters, and soaking the tortoise.


----------



## Chizbad

I just finished with this.... have a few things to finish up on it but you get the idea.


----------



## Chizbad

Question... Should I make the basking spot available for 12 hours a day? I have a uvb tube as well along the back left wall and a ceramic bulb for when the uvb/heat bulb isn’t on. The little one seems to want to stay under the spot potentially a little more than it should


----------



## Tom

Chizbad said:


> Question... Should I make the basking spot available for 12 hours a day? I have a uvb tube as well along the back left wall and a ceramic bulb for when the uvb/heat bulb isn’t on. The little one seems to want to stay under the spot potentially a little more than it should




Basking lamp should be on for 12-13 hours everyday.
You should be using a flood bulb, not a spot bulb.
basking area will work better if there is a flat rock or piece of sandstone or slate directly under the bulb.
If the tortoise is staying under the basking area too much, it is usually a sign that the ambient, or the basking area is too cool. What is the ambient temp, and what is the basking area temp directly under the heat lamp?
CHEs should be set on a thermostat so that they keep ambient high enough 24/7, regardless of what the other bulbs are doing. If the other bulbs are keeping things warm enough during the day, the thermostat will keep the CHE off all day until it is needed.


----------



## Chizbad

-Using a SolarGlo 80w for 12-13hrs a day
- the tube light is a repti-glo 10.0(on with the solarglo)
-Ambient temp is around 86-90degrees 
-basking spot about 95 degrees 
-humidity about 85%, a little less under the lights 
-I will eventually go to a thermostat set up but haven’t yet, for now just turning the solarglo off in the afternoon and the ceramic on at night seems to keep everything in the correct parameters.
- maybe I should have started by asking, how much is too much? I’d say yesterday my little one spent a total of 5-6hrs under it and was also very active for much of the day moving and eating elsewhere in the tank


----------



## JoesMum

Chizbad said:


> -Using a SolarGlo 80w for 12-13hrs a day
> - the tube light is a repti-glo 10.0(on with the solarglo)
> -Ambient temp is around 86-90degrees
> -basking spot about 95 degrees
> -humidity about 85%, a little less under the lights
> -I will eventually go to a thermostat set up but haven’t yet, for now just turning the solarglo off in the afternoon and the ceramic on at night seems to keep everything in the correct parameters.
> - maybe I should have started by asking, how much is too much? I’d say yesterday my little one spent a total of 5-6hrs under it and was also very active for much of the day moving and eating elsewhere in the tank



The basking lamp needs to be on all day. Your tortoise will move into and out of the heat as it needs it. The 95-100F under it must be available on demand. Your tortoise cannot thermoregulate by sweating like you can; it moves to the right position in the enclosure for its needs at any moment. Without being able to bask, it cannot digest food or be active. 

When the ‘sun’ goes down you have to ensure your tortoise stays warm enough to remain healthy and so it can move into the basking spot to start the next day.


----------



## Chizbad

JoesMum said:


> The basking lamp needs to be on all day. Your tortoise will move into and out of the heat as it needs it. The 95-100F under it must be available on demand. Your tortoise cannot thermoregulate by sweating like you can; it moves to the right position in the enclosure for its needs at any moment. Without being able to bask, it cannot digest food or be active.
> 
> When the ‘sun’ goes down you have to ensure your tortoise stays warm enough to remain healthy and so it can move into the basking spot to start the next day.


I think I’m just being a little too OCD about it then... everything I’m doing seems to be correct. For what it’s worth, the little one seems active happy and gaining about a gram a day


----------



## JoesMum

Chizbad said:


> I think I’m just being a little too OCD about it then... everything I’m doing seems to be correct. For what it’s worth, the little one seems active happy and gaining about a gram a day



You sound like most of us. You never stop worrying completely... and quite rapidly you tell your tort’s weight to the nearest gramme just by picking it up


----------



## ohiohomestead

Read this thread a bit too many times. Was hoping not to get babies but it is looking to be the only way to get what I am ultimately wanting.

Have a 2'5" X 5'4" closed chamber 'basically copying Toms style'. With 7 Babies planned, how big should the next enclosure be?
Have a hold over or jail I use for the large toe bitters now that is 6.5'x6.5'. The heat is easily controlled and the humidity can be achieved as it is a corner of my office I studded off/insulated and added a insulate 2x6 subfloor. Would this work for the move up and out of the first nursery? 
Thanks

Still wishing the UVB debate had some solid numbers to go off of. Being in Ohio and limited days out and ambient sun during those times. I have just instituted any lights be with UVB. With Tom pointing me to the UV meter, will see if my cost into lighting was fruitful. Arcadia loves me.......


----------



## ohiohomestead

Not sure if any of the original posters are around still but running into some designs issues.
Tom mentioned turning a window inside out which is perfect for locking reasons, but left local building supply with doubts as to which window.
Can't get anything over 48" that doesn't have a fixed panel. basically cant get window that both sides operate over 48". Even ordering a window 24" wide and 78" tall, turning side ways the large size on all major windows manufacturers fixes the upper window. What would any one recommend on this to make a good sealed entry on the front?


----------



## lukarw

Hi !

I built closed chamber as by your advised and now I can keep not only right temperature but also humidity around 70-75% with no special effort. My hatchling is behaving much better : its very energized, walks about from basking area to humid box , to cooler area of the enclosure. 

I have a question regarding ventilation of the enclosure , I could not find any info on this in your post "How To Raise A Healthy Sulcata Or Leopard, Version 2.0"
. So How do I go about it? is there any ventilation needed? do I need to make few holes here and there in the plastic cover?

Best

Luka


----------



## Taylor T.

If you are worrying about him running out of oxygen, don't. Unless your enclosure is sealed like a refrigerator there is no way he could use it up faster than it leaks in.

He would probably be fine even if it was perfectly sealed, because every time you open it to feed him, or soak him, you would be letting in lots of fresh air.


----------



## lukarw

Taylor T. said:


> If you are worrying about him running out of oxygen, don't. Unless your enclosure is sealed like a refrigerator there is no way he could use it up faster than it leaks in.
> 
> He would probably be fine even if it was perfectly sealed, because every time you open it to feed him, or soak him, you would be letting in lots of fresh air.




thanks a lot. I was in deed worried that he will get uncomfortable due to lack of air


----------



## TortRook1

Could I use flex seal to coat the inside of the closed chamber box to help with the moisture and soil so it doesn't rot the wood? Any other recommendations for building the box?


----------



## daniellenc

TortRook1 said:


> Could I use flex seal to coat the inside of the closed chamber box to help with the moisture and soil so it doesn't rot the wood? Any other recommendations for building the box?


Check out the enclosure threads there’s so many great ideas and different safe sealants to choose from.


----------



## TechnoCheese

TortRook1 said:


> Could I use flex seal to coat the inside of the closed chamber box to help with the moisture and soil so it doesn't rot the wood? Any other recommendations for building the box?



I did that with mine. Be sure that it’s not a super thin coat, because Curtis dug through the thin coat I put down


----------



## Romeo Serback

Tidgy's Dad said:


> I think these threads should be kept fresh.
> Mostly, Nobody's going to read thought 11 pages.


Wrong. I'm reading every one. Lol I might not know as much as everybody here, but I'm learning quite a bit more than if I didn't. I love the perspective and enclosure ideas and will sometimes screenshot those points. I do get confused about the light studies though.


----------



## SheLLife

Kristina said:


> I use lower wattage heat lamps, place them right in the glass aquarium, and use a plexiglass cover to seal in the humidity. I have not had any issues with mold, shell rot, or "lack of air-flow."
> 
> My Sulcatas, Redfoot (now yearling,) and Star hatchlings have been kept this way from day one and have grown smooth. I started my Greek (yearling now also) in a a sweater box with a humid hide, and she started to pyramid. It isn't bad, but it makes me feel like a failure.
> 
> Here are some pics of my aquariums.
> 
> As you can see in this one, the heat lamps are right down in the enclosure. The one over the water dish turns it into a little "sauna" and the smaller, darker of the two babies loves to lay in it. She will put her little head on the rim and go to sleep there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are the babies. They are bigger now (WAAAAAAYYYY past time to update pictures!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is where I kept my first Star before summer hit. You can see again the heat source is right down in there. In this case it is a 60 watt black light bulb (both this enclosure and the one above have these as a heat source with an additional florescent for light.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the result...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next is my little Redfoot. This one started out in an old Metaframe slate bottom aquarium. The hood for the tank has two incandescent sockets, which hold compact florescents, and the other hanging down is a 60 watt black light bulb.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having that set up made this...





Kristina said:


> I use lower wattage heat lamps, place them right in the glass aquarium, and use a plexiglass cover to seal in the humidity. I have not had any issues with mold, shell rot, or "lack of air-flow."
> 
> My Sulcatas, Redfoot (now yearling,) and Star hatchlings have been kept this way from day one and have grown smooth. I started my Greek (yearling now also) in a a sweater box with a humid hide, and she started to pyramid. It isn't bad, but it makes me feel like a failure.
> 
> Here are some pics of my aquariums.
> 
> As you can see in this one, the heat lamps are right down in the enclosure. The one over the water dish turns it into a little "sauna" and the smaller, darker of the two babies loves to lay in it. She will put her little head on the rim and go to sleep there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are the babies. They are bigger now (WAAAAAAYYYY past time to update pictures!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is where I kept my first Star before summer hit. You can see again the heat source is right down in there. In this case it is a 60 watt black light bulb (both this enclosure and the one above have these as a heat source with an additional florescent for light.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the result...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next is my little Redfoot. This one started out in an old Metaframe slate bottom aquarium. The hood for the tank has two incandescent sockets, which hold compact florescents, and the other hanging down is a 60 watt black light bulb.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having that set up made this...


Hello Kristina, I'm feeling like the worst tortoise mommy right now! I have two amazing Sri Lankan Stars about 6 and 8 months. Had them since they were 2 and 4 weeks. I thought I was doing well with them but now I'm concerned. I was expecting some pyramiding due to their genes but I have read recently that there are keepers with smooth shelled Sris. I have them in a 40 gal breeder with hinged screen lid under a 75w heat lamp (was 100w but kept blowing bulbs) and a UV bulb. I hope that's enough info on lights can't remember the details since I went through several bulbs at first. Their humidity says it stays around 80%. 90+ at night when all lights are off, and it's always about 90°F under their basking area. I soaked them every day for about 20 min at first and now about every 2-3 days with misting enclosure in between. I just placed a piece of wood down the middle to separate them bc I read that the bigger one was bullying and stressing my little one out. I didn't see this, thought they were just close. Now my lights are straight down the middle over the wood. This is temporary of course. Just wanted your opinion on how to improve their lives. I hope I don't sound dumb I'm new at this. I desperately want to do everything I can to be the best tortoise mommy I can. When is it time to remove from the closed chamber? I am suddenly doubting myself feel like I know nothing despite my studies. I was thinking of getting Jerry D Fife's Star Tortoise book and doing as he says. Any opinion or input will be greatly appreciated. Also I'm sorry I don't know how to insert a picture. Hope my description was clear and sufficient.


----------



## SheLLife

Ahhh I figured it out! Lol


----------



## mike6789

Tom said:


> Been meaning to do this one for a while now...
> 
> Over the years I have kept a lot of reptiles in a lot of different ways. I've learned a lot of stuff about a lot of species. Since finding and joining this forum almost two years ago, I've learned a TON more. Now I'm not just stumbling around alone in the dark. Now, with the help of all the fantastic TFO members, I can see and experience everyone else's enclosures and styles too.
> 
> There are a lot of good ways to house a tortoise indoors. Tank, tub, trough, table, and... closed chamber. Different methods work best for the various species and ages. Through all of my "experiments" and sharing the vast experience of others here on the forum, I have reached my current conclusion that "closed chambers", with a basking lamp inside, are the best means of housing the babies of most species. Everyone's situation is different, and we all live in different climates... heck our torts are all from different climates too. Still, overall, I have personally experienced the best results and seen the best results from others, in this style of enclosure. Several people come to mind, but Tyler, Neal, Kristina and KBaker, have especially shown their enclosures and the results. There are lots of others too, but these members have had the biggest influence on me recently.
> 
> Only in a closed chamber can I control the humidity properly. Its very dry where I live, and its a constant battle to maintain any humidity at all in most enclosures. In a closed chamber, its a piece of cake. I've used glass tanks and various styles of tortoise tables for years to house my chelonians, but the open tops let out all that beneficial humidity and heat. By putting my heat lamps and CHEs INSIDE the closed enclosure, they do NOT dry things out AND they use a lot less power to give me the same amount of heat. Plus, once they heat everything up and the thermostat kicks them off, the heat just stays in there. I'm using less electricity on my 4x8' closed chamber than I am on my 40 gallon open topped glass tank! (I have little electric meters called "Kill-A-Watt EZ"). The humidity is lower directly under the heat lamp, but its as high as I want to keep it all around that area and the rest of the enclosure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In theory this all sounds reasonable, but what happens in the real world? I've gotten the best results I've ever gotten in this type of enclosure. On a lot of my glass tanks I end up covering as much of the top as I can. It seems like the more and better I cover them, the better the results I get. But I still lose all my heat and humidity out of the hole that has to be there for my light fixtures. Like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This leads me to a big problem that has come up recently with several potential new tortoise keepers. Where does one go buy a "closed tortoise chamber" for their new pet? Most conventional enclosures are too shallow to have a closed top and still allow enough room for a hanging fixture with a hot bulb in it. I like the Vision tubs, but they are too short for this purpose. My leopard enclosure is 24" tall and that just barely accommodates things safely. When I build the next one it will be around 30" tall. I have not seen a pre-made enclosure with the right dimensions. Tyler showed me this one that he is using. I can't remember which species he is housing in this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember we are talking about housing babies. Not adults or even juveniles. Discussion is welcome here. I'm always wanting to learn more.



in this picture why do you put some tortoise together is it possible for parda to put in a group? sorry for asking to much question but here in Indonesia we don't have much source to learn


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## Tom

Groups of juveniles are usually fine. Pairs are the problem.

When the male SouthAfrican leopards begin to mature at around 18 months old, they get very aggressive with each other and with any females present. I find it best to house the males all alone and introduce them for breeding once in a while.


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## mike6789

Tom said:


> Groups of juveniles are usually fine. Pairs are the problem.
> 
> When the male SouthAfrican leopards begin to mature at around 18 months old, they get very aggressive with each other and with any females present. I find it best to house the males all alone and introduce them for breeding once in a while.



thank you[emoji120]


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## Hai

So I'm constructing my chamber. Is it better to use expanded PVC or wood? If I use wood what do I coat the bottlem so it doesnt rot. Thanks


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## tinytortoise

Tom said:


> Been meaning to do this one for a while now...
> 
> Over the years I have kept a lot of reptiles in a lot of different ways. I've learned a lot of stuff about a lot of species. Since finding and joining this forum almost two years ago, I've learned a TON more. Now I'm not just stumbling around alone in the dark. Now, with the help of all the fantastic TFO members, I can see and experience everyone else's enclosures and styles too.
> 
> There are a lot of good ways to house a tortoise indoors. Tank, tub, trough, table, and... closed chamber. Different methods work best for the various species and ages. Through all of my "experiments" and sharing the vast experience of others here on the forum, I have reached my current conclusion that "closed chambers", with a basking lamp inside, are the best means of housing the babies of most species. Everyone's situation is different, and we all live in different climates... heck our torts are all from different climates too. Still, overall, I have personally experienced the best results and seen the best results from others, in this style of enclosure. Several people come to mind, but Tyler, Neal, Kristina and KBaker, have especially shown their enclosures and the results. There are lots of others too, but these members have had the biggest influence on me recently.
> 
> Only in a closed chamber can I control the humidity properly. Its very dry where I live, and its a constant battle to maintain any humidity at all in most enclosures. In a closed chamber, its a piece of cake. I've used glass tanks and various styles of tortoise tables for years to house my chelonians, but the open tops let out all that beneficial humidity and heat. By putting my heat lamps and CHEs INSIDE the closed enclosure, they do NOT dry things out AND they use a lot less power to give me the same amount of heat. Plus, once they heat everything up and the thermostat kicks them off, the heat just stays in there. I'm using less electricity on my 4x8' closed chamber than I am on my 40 gallon open topped glass tank! (I have little electric meters called "Kill-A-Watt EZ"). The humidity is lower directly under the heat lamp, but its as high as I want to keep it all around that area and the rest of the enclosure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In theory this all sounds reasonable, but what happens in the real world? I've gotten the best results I've ever gotten in this type of enclosure. On a lot of my glass tanks I end up covering as much of the top as I can. It seems like the more and better I cover them, the better the results I get. But I still lose all my heat and humidity out of the hole that has to be there for my light fixtures. Like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This leads me to a big problem that has come up recently with several potential new tortoise keepers. Where does one go buy a "closed tortoise chamber" for their new pet? Most conventional enclosures are too shallow to have a closed top and still allow enough room for a hanging fixture with a hot bulb in it. I like the Vision tubs, but they are too short for this purpose. My leopard enclosure is 24" tall and that just barely accommodates things safely. When I build the next one it will be around 30" tall. I have not seen a pre-made enclosure with the right dimensions. Tyler showed me this one that he is using. I can't remember which species he is housing in this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember we are talking about housing babies. Not adults or even juveniles. Discussion is welcome here. I'm always wanting to learn more.




@Tom, In the picture of the PVC lid, how do you adhere the plastic to the pipes? I'm hoping to build a similar lid for a 50 gal stock tank!


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## Tom

tinytortoise said:


> @Tom, In the picture of the PVC lid, how do you adhere the plastic to the pipes? I'm hoping to build a similar lid for a 50 gal stock tank!


That is a pic of someone else's enclosure. This thread is 7 years old and I don't remember whose that was anymore.


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## tinytortoise

Tom said:


> That is a pic of someone else's enclosure. This thread is 7 years old and I don't remember whose that was anymore.


Thank you<3 I may start a separate post for ideas. May I use picture?


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## Tom

tinytortoise said:


> Thank you<3 I may start a separate post for ideas. May I use picture?


Its not my place to give you permission since it is not mine. It is posted on a public forum, so I think can can use it if you like.


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## briancla

Do you think 1 150w CHE will heat a 72x24x24? i have a extra 100 laying around i could possibly toss in it as well? just to keep the temps around 80. i was also going to put a 100w basking spot lamp for the day time. i have 2 t5s with arcadia tubes for my uvb. i'm getting ready to move my torts over to the new enclosure. i'm just trying to make sure that the heat will be able to keep up on my closed chamber. or do you think i should run 2 lower watt ceramics? as long as they are on a thermostat should it matter to much about the wattage?


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## surfergirl

If you make a door for a closed chamber out of an insulated glass window, and put the exterior side of the window towards the inside of the chamber, beware that low-e glass will reflect uv rays back into the enclosure. Depending on the angle of the uv hitting the low-e glass, it can cause melting and even fire to objects in the focus point. Similar to sun on a magnifying glass. We have had people call complaining that their grass was burnt and also their vinyl siding melted due to their neighbors window reflecting rays on their property. In GA they require low-e glass to meet code, as a solution, adding a screen on the outside of the unit breaks up the rays eliminating the issue. 
Not sure if this could be an issue or not. I would be sure to use non low-e insulated glass just to be on the safe side.


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## surfergirl

I read through every post as well ! Sour much great info!


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## Tom

briancla said:


> Do you think 1 150w CHE will heat a 72x24x24? i have a extra 100 laying around i could possibly toss in it as well? just to keep the temps around 80. i was also going to put a 100w basking spot lamp for the day time. i have 2 t5s with arcadia tubes for my uvb. i'm getting ready to move my torts over to the new enclosure. i'm just trying to make sure that the heat will be able to keep up on my closed chamber. or do you think i should run 2 lower watt ceramics? as long as they are on a thermostat should it matter to much about the wattage?


Hello and welcome to the forum.

I would use the two CHEs in something that size. The thermostat will keep them from over heating everything. Having two will spread the heat out better, and also give you some redundant safety in the event that one of them stops working for some reason.

I would not use a "spot" bulb. Those concentrate too much heat into too small of an area and greatly contribute to pyramiding due to the carapace desiccation they cause. Flood bulbs work much better, and lower wattage floods tend to be less desiccating. I normally start with a regular 65 watt flood from the hard ware store, and adjust the height to get the correct temperature under it. Let your thermometers be your guide here. Only your thermometers can tell you if you've got the right wattage heating and lighting elements.


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## briancla

Tom, what do you think about running CHE in a socket with no dome at the top? do you think it would be better to have a dome to direct the heat down?


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## Tom

briancla said:


> Tom, what do you think about running CHE in a socket with no dome at the top? do you think it would be better to have a dome to direct the heat down?



If you are using it for ambient heat to heat up the whole enclosure, then I don't think you need the dome. On the other hand, I'd be super cautious about checking temps above the CHE to make sure you don't melt or burn the top of the enclosure. In general, I prefer to use radiant heat panels over CHEs. Much safer.


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## briancla

hmm. well i haven't finished setting up the enclosure yet so i could change over to a heat panel. in a enclosure like mine what would you recommend. also i have a t5pro with a 12% arcadia bulb in it. i have 1 36 and a 24" i was going to link them up so the light would almost be side to side. do you think that's overkill? i was almost thinking of just running the 36 centered. i just want to make sure that i set this enclosure up correct the first time. i haven't used a lot of the stuff i bought so its not to late for me to take some of it back or switch it out.


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## Tom

briancla said:


> hmm. well i haven't finished setting up the enclosure yet so i could change over to a heat panel. in a enclosure like mine what would you recommend. also i have a t5pro with a 12% arcadia bulb in it. i have 1 36 and a 24" i was going to link them up so the light would almost be side to side. do you think that's overkill? i was almost thinking of just running the 36 centered. i just want to make sure that i set this enclosure up correct the first time. i haven't used a lot of the stuff i bought so its not to late for me to take some of it back or switch it out.


I'd use the 24" bulb (Actually 22" for HO), and an 80 watt RHP.


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## briancla

i have both the the 22" and the 34" with t5s. you think one 80watt RHP would be good or should i do one on each side? i'm just trying to get this figured out, i want to make sure that they are set up good. i have a few days to figure it out. im siliconing the pond liner in in the morning. i haven't used the 22" and the 24t5 yet, so i was thinking about taking it back and just running the 34" one that they have now if it would be enough.


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## Tseeman

Yvonne G said:


> Oh, Tom...I'm crushed! You neglected to mention my very cheap and easy "closed chamber" idea. I've mentioned it many times here on the forum and it works quite well...but its not very pretty.
> 
> I take two long sheets of aluminum foil (the kind you cook with) and I lay them side-by-side. Then I fold together the long edge of both, making one big sheet. Then I make a cover over the whole habitat including the light fixtures, similar to, but not as pretty, as Tyler's.



I created a closed chamber last night using a big storage tote with snap on lid and cut out 2 big round hokes for the fixtures and lined them with foil am I to cut holes for oxygen?


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## DanB

If I had to keep my Tort in a closed chamber I'd not have a Tort. I like to walk by and look to see whats up, not go over and open it up to see. Now I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a closed chamber, its just not my thing. Yes I know you can have glass sides and all but then you have to clean it and with that you have to be careful what you use. 

I noticed when I had my Red in a plastic bin he was always walking into it and bumping his face on it. Now that I have him in a wooden enclosure he does not bump into it.


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## Tseeman

DanB said:


> If I had to keep my Tort in a closed chamber I'd not have a Tort. I like to walk by and look to see whats up, not go over and open it up to see. Now Im not saying there is anything wrong with a closed chamber, its just not my thing.


I just set one up last night and can see everything so far working great I've never had my humidity so high


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## Yvonne G

DanB said:


> If I had to keep my Tort in a closed chamber I'd not have a Tort. I like to walk by and look to see whats up, not go over and open it up to see. Now Im not saying there is anything wrong with a closed chamber, its just not my thing.


I don't have mine for indoor enjoyment (however, with the Vision Cage I truly DO enjoy watching the baby desert tortoises), but rather for the peacefulness of sitting under a tree outside and watching them do their outdoor thing. Very peaceful and enjoyable.


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## jsheffield

DanB said:


> If I had to keep my Tort in a closed chamber I'd not have a Tort. I like to walk by and look to see whats up, not go over and open it up to see. Now Im not saying there is anything wrong with a closed chamber, its just not my thing.



A closed chamber doesn't necessarily mean opaque, it refers to it being closed as regards to moisture and heating ... my tort lives in a closed chamber made out of glass and I watch him all day long.

Jamie


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## Tseeman

jsheffield said:


> A closed chamber doesn't necessarily mean opaque, it refers to it being closed as regards to moisture and heating ... my tort lives in a closed chamber made out of glass and I watch him all day long.
> 
> Jamie


Hey I jut made a closed chamber last night out of a 40 gal tote, should j be worried about oxygen? Is there a way to make holes but not mess up the humidity levels the whole point of me going to closed chamber


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## jsheffield

Tseeman said:


> Hey I jut made a closed chamber last night out of a 40 gal tote, should j be worried about oxygen? Is there a way to make holes but not mess up the humidity levels the whole point of me going to closed chamber



I think that with most closed systems, there are enough holes (from lights and heating appliances), and frequent enough opening of the enclosure to insure adequate oxygen flow and replacement ... if your system was actually airtight, then I'd find a way to open it up to a minor degree that allowed for air exchange without sacrificing the heat/humidity gains the closed systems bring.

Jamie


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## Tseeman

jsheffield said:


> I think that with most closed systems, there are enough holes (from lights and heating appliances), and frequent enough opening of the enclosure to insure adequate oxygen flow and replacement ... if your system was actually airtight, then I'd find a way to open it up to a minor degree that allowed for air exchange without sacrificing the heat/humidity gains the closed systems bring.
> 
> Jamie


I just got home and cracked the lid not even a quarter inch and lost 9% in seconds I'll watch over him this weekend


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## Cheryl Hills

No, you don’t have to cut holes for oxygen. There will be enough air exchange when you open it to feed or clean the enclosure.


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## Tseeman

Cheryl Hills said:


> No, you don’t have to cut holes for oxygen. There will be enough air exchange when you open it to feed or clean the enclosure.


Well I only feed at 5 am then a snack around 5 pm and I cut the holes for the fixture pretty proper so there's not like large gaps for air I just wanna be postivie I'm not gonna suffocate him


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## jcha2013

Yvonne G said:


> Oh, Tom...I'm crushed! You neglected to mention my very cheap and easy "closed chamber" idea. I've mentioned it many times here on the forum and it works quite well...but its not very pretty.
> 
> I take two long sheets of aluminum foil (the kind you cook with) and I lay them side-by-side. Then I fold together the long edge of both, making one big sheet. Then I make a cover over the whole habitat including the light fixtures, similar to, but not as pretty, as Tyler's.




Yvone, you’re a genius! I love it. Will try this asap!!


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## jcha2013

Kristina said:


> Yes, it is  That is my little Black Cherry. She was produced by Redfoot NERD (Terry Kilgore, www.turtletary.com ) I had to have her the moment I saw her because she is just so unusual. Terry has produced a few more of the "black" ones since this one, but she was the first and also the blackest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, you don't, lol. It would be a NIGHTMARE to heat something that size and keep it humid, lol.
> 
> My opinion is that the young babies hide so much anyway, that they don't need as large of an enclosure as a juvenile. Until they reach the size where they feel more "predator proof" it is okay to use a smaller enclosure. For many however, it is just cheaper and easier to start out with the size that you are eventually going to need, rather than doing upgrades and having to keep buying new equipment. I already have all this crap so it is a lot easier for me, lol.
> 
> As far as keeping them outside... You could do something like this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has a lid, too. The lid is hinged, just a wooden frame with more of the wire in it. That is where the "Three Amigos" have stayed since they came to live with me




Hi there! Can I ask what are those plants in the fourth picture on the left? The leafy greens? I have some growing in my patio and I’m wasn’t sure if they were good for my tort. It grows with clovers and grass!


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## Alcapone12

Kristina said:


> I use lower wattage heat lamps, place them right in the glass aquarium, and use a plexiglass cover to seal in the humidity. I have not had any issues with mold, shell rot, or "lack of air-flow."
> 
> My Sulcatas, Redfoot (now yearling,) and Star hatchlings have been kept this way from day one and have grown smooth. I started my Greek (yearling now also) in a a sweater box with a humid hide, and she started to pyramid. It isn't bad, but it makes me feel like a failure.
> 
> Here are some pics of my aquariums.
> 
> As you can see in this one, the heat lamps are right down in the enclosure. The one over the water dish turns it into a little "sauna" and the smaller, darker of the two babies loves to lay in it. She will put her little head on the rim and go to sleep there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are the babies. They are bigger now (WAAAAAAYYYY past time to update pictures!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is where I kept my first Star before summer hit. You can see again the heat source is right down in there. In this case it is a 60 watt black light bulb (both this enclosure and the one above have these as a heat source with an additional florescent for light.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the result...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next is my little Redfoot. This one started out in an old Metaframe slate bottom aquarium. The hood for the tank has two incandescent sockets, which hold compact florescents, and the other hanging down is a 60 watt black light bulb.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having that set up made this...


Great enclosure! How did you manage to get the light that's close in? Also the light over the hide is that a heat lamp? Thanks asking for my 6month old sulcata


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## A.Vazquez

How do you maintain airflow in an enclosed tank? I bought an open reptile tank with the slide on top. I see above how I can cover that with foil to enclose it (including lamp? Is that a fire hazard?) I didnt do my homework before I was mislead and brought our little one home. I've only had it a few hrs and am trying to correct all of the mistakes I have already made. I feel like a horrible tort mom


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## Toddrickfl1

Here's a picture of my Redfoot hatchling. A little over 5 months. Followed all the recommendations on the forum and cannot be happier with the results so far. Thanks Tom


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## Tom

A.Vazquez said:


> How do you maintain airflow in an enclosed tank? I bought an open reptile tank with the slide on top. I see above how I can cover that with foil to enclose it (including lamp? Is that a fire hazard?) I didnt do my homework before I was mislead and brought our little one home. I've only had it a few hrs and am trying to correct all of the mistakes I have already made. I feel like a horrible tort mom


Foil will work as a short term fix and it is not flammable. The best long term solution is a large closed chamber. Like these:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/new-stack-of-animal-plastics-closed-chambers.165626/


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## A.Vazquez

Tom said:


> Foil will work as a short term fix and it is not flammable. The best long term solution is a large closed chamber. Like these:
> https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/new-stack-of-animal-plastics-closed-chambers.165626/


Beautiful set up! I realized the foil wouldnt be a problem last night and implemented it to the enclosure. Its holding some humidity, I expect it to hold more once I can find the orchid bark. Could you please reccomend an online source for the orchid bark?


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## Tom

I think it was @Markw84 that found a good place to get it at a reasonable price. Lets see if he'll see this and chime in.

I buy mine locally, so I don't know of any on-line sources.


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## A.Vazquez

Tom said:


> Foil will work as a short term fix and it is not flammable. The best long term solution is a large closed chamber. Like these:
> https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/new-stack-of-animal-plastics-closed-chambers.165626/



I'm trying to build one on the site. Would you reccomend led lighting? Will the fluorescent light provide enough heat? How do I include a basking light?


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## A.Vazquez

Tom said:


> Foil will work as a short term fix and it is not flammable. The best long term solution is a large closed chamber. Like these:
> https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/new-stack-of-animal-plastics-closed-chambers.165626/



I'm trying to build one on the site. Would you reccomend led lighting? Will the fluorescent light provide enough heat? How do I include a basking light?


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## Tom

A.Vazquez said:


> I'm trying to build one on the site. Would you reccomend led lighting? Will the fluorescent light provide enough heat? How do I include a basking light?


There are four elements to heating and lighting:

Basking bulb. I use 65 watt floods from the hardware store. I run them on a timer and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. You can mount a fixture on the ceiling, or hang a dome lamp from the ceiling.
Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species like sulcatas or leopards.
Light. I use florescent tubes for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most tubes at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish.
UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. If you want it anyway, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. It helps to have a UV meter to test and see what your bulb is actually putting out at your mounting height.
The florescent and basking bulbs will probably keep the chamber plenty warm during the day, and the thermostat will keep the heating equipment off during the day as long as the temperature is warm enough. At night when the lights are all off, the thermostat should kick the heat on and keep things warm enough.

I do use LED and no problems so far. They use less electricity and produce less heat than florescent bulbs too. The room where my enclosures sit is already heated to 80 day and night, so I don't need any additional heat day or night. Overheating can be a problem for me. In a normal room will cooler temperatures, the extra heat from a florescent tube might be just right in your enclosure. Only your thermometer can answer the question.


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## Tom

A.Vazquez said:


> I'm trying to build one on the site. Would you reccomend led lighting? Will the fluorescent light provide enough heat? How do I include a basking light?


15" is too short. Get the T 13. More floor space and cheaper than the T 11 or T 12.

Also, realize that if your sulcata is healthy and grows at a normal rate, it will outgrow even the T13 in 6-8 months. My babies that are started with optimal hydration and conditions outgrow that size in about 3 months. Might be worth it to just bite the bullet and get the bigger one now so you don't have to upgrade in a few months. I use the T 65 size. I divide it in half for hatchlings and remove the divider as they grow. Just wanted to forewarn you.


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## A.Vazquez

Tom said:


> 15" is too short. Get the T 13. More floor space and cheaper than the T 11 or T 12.
> 
> Also, realize that if your sulcata is healthy and grows at a normal rate, it will outgrow even the T13 in 6-8 months. My babies that are started with optimal hydration and conditions outgrow that size in about 3 months. Might be worth it to just bite the bullet and get the bigger one now so you don't have to upgrade in a few months. I use the T 65 size. I divide it in half for hatchlings and remove the divider as they grow. Just wanted to forewarn you.


Thank you so much!


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## Markw84

A.Vazquez said:


> Beautiful set up! I realized the foil wouldnt be a problem last night and implemented it to the enclosure. Its holding some humidity, I expect it to hold more once I can find the orchid bark. Could you please reccomend an online source for the orchid bark?


Here's the best online source I have seen for Orchid Bark. 2 cu ft runs $20 so more than my garden center, but still way less than a "reptile bark" at the pet stores. Also about the only option if you are not West Coast for orchid bark.

Orchid bark - Tropical Plant Products


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## A.Vazquez

Thank you!


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## Bountyboy

Kristina said:


> I use several different sizes. Last winter I used mostly 20 gallons (24" x 12" x 16".) This year, I have two 15 gallon longs (same footprint as the 20s, just not as tall.) One will be for my Greek yearling, the other is for my two little Stars. For my Redfoot (who is around 4") I have a 20 gallon long (30" x 12" x 12".) The "Three Amigos" (Dee, Dusty, and Devon, Sulcata hatchlings produced by Tom) have a 27 gallon long (36" x 12Â½" x 13") and the two slightly older Sulcatas (Kasey and Kendall, just over 4") share a 55 gallon (48" x 12Â½" x 21".) For my four yearling Manouria I have a 90 gallon (48" x 24" x 17".)
> 
> Now, please understand, I am well aware of the fact that all of these tortoises are going to at one point outgrow their enclosures. None of these are meant to last longer than a single winter. I have a storage building that is PACKED with tanks. I have tanks from 220 gallons on down. Once these tortoises move past the "baby" stage, they won't be housed in aquariums at all. I utilize very large tables for my adult tortoises.
> 
> I have two racks that hold the tanks. One I purchased from Home Depot, and the other I built myself.


Hello I believe I have a juvenile Russian tortoise what size table or tank should I go with I have 2 box turtles as well I don't have that much room in my house and I don't want to put them in the basement what size should I go with any help would be appreciated


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## Tom

Bountyboy said:


> Hello I believe I have a juvenile Russian tortoise what size table or tank should I go with I have 2 box turtles as well I don't have that much room in my house and I don't want to put them in the basement what size should I go with any help would be appreciated


Kristina isn't really on the forum anymore. She stoped posting years ago.

You'll need a 4x8' enclosure for the Russian, and also one for each of the box turtles. You might be able to get away with 3x6', but bigger is better,


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## Bountyboy

Thank you so much for the info. I just gotta figure out where in my house to put it I definitely don't want it in the basement


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## Bountyboy

I guess I'm just going to direct all my questions to you thanks again tom


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## LaSunshine

Does anyone know why I can’t see any pictures posted? 
QUOTE="Tom, post: 304363, member: 3441"]Been meaning to do this one for a while now...

Over the years I have kept a lot of reptiles in a lot of different ways. I've learned a lot of stuff about a lot of species. Since finding and joining this forum almost two years ago, I've learned a TON more. Now I'm not just stumbling around alone in the dark. Now, with the help of all the fantastic TFO members, I can see and experience everyone else's enclosures and styles too.

There are a lot of good ways to house a tortoise indoors. Tank, tub, trough, table, and... closed chamber. Different methods work best for the various species and ages. Through all of my "experiments" and sharing the vast experience of others here on the forum, I have reached my current conclusion that "closed chambers", with a basking lamp inside, are the best means of housing the babies of most species. Everyone's situation is different, and we all live in different climates... heck our torts are all from different climates too. Still, overall, I have personally experienced the best results and seen the best results from others, in this style of enclosure. Several people come to mind, but Tyler, Neal, Kristina and KBaker, have especially shown their enclosures and the results. There are lots of others too, but these members have had the biggest influence on me recently.

Only in a closed chamber can I control the humidity properly. Its very dry where I live, and its a constant battle to maintain any humidity at all in most enclosures. In a closed chamber, its a piece of cake. I've used glass tanks and various styles of tortoise tables for years to house my chelonians, but the open tops let out all that beneficial humidity and heat. By putting my heat lamps and CHEs INSIDE the closed enclosure, they do NOT dry things out AND they use a lot less power to give me the same amount of heat. Plus, once they heat everything up and the thermostat kicks them off, the heat just stays in there. I'm using less electricity on my 4x8' closed chamber than I am on my 40 gallon open topped glass tank! (I have little electric meters called "Kill-A-Watt EZ"). The humidity is lower directly under the heat lamp, but its as high as I want to keep it all around that area and the rest of the enclosure.










In theory this all sounds reasonable, but what happens in the real world? I've gotten the best results I've ever gotten in this type of enclosure. On a lot of my glass tanks I end up covering as much of the top as I can. It seems like the more and better I cover them, the better the results I get. But I still lose all my heat and humidity out of the hole that has to be there for my light fixtures. Like this one:





This leads me to a big problem that has come up recently with several potential new tortoise keepers. Where does one go buy a "closed tortoise chamber" for their new pet? Most conventional enclosures are too shallow to have a closed top and still allow enough room for a hanging fixture with a hot bulb in it. I like the Vision tubs, but they are too short for this purpose. My leopard enclosure is 24" tall and that just barely accommodates things safely. When I build the next one it will be around 30" tall. I have not seen a pre-made enclosure with the right dimensions. Tyler showed me this one that he is using. I can't remember which species he is housing in this.





Remember we are talking about housing babies. Not adults or even juveniles. Discussion is welcome here. I'm always wanting to learn more.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Tortoise MasterMan

Could you put a few pencil sized holes in aluminium foil to help with air circulation.


----------



## LaSunshine

Tom said:


> Your CHE needs to run through a thermostat, not a timer. Just set the temp where you want it, and it will do the work for you. In a large enclosure like yours, you might need two CHEs to spread the heat out a bit.
> 
> If you find the enclosure is getting too hot from the use of the basking bulb, use a smaller bulb. I use 65 watt flood bulbs in my 4x8' chambers.


What is a CHE? thanks


----------



## Tom

LaSunshine said:


> What is a CHE? thanks


CHE = Ceramic Heating Element.
RHP = Radiant Heat Panel.


----------



## LaSunshine

Tom said:


> Been meaning to do this one for a while now...
> 
> Over the years I have kept a lot of reptiles in a lot of different ways. I've learned a lot of stuff about a lot of species. Since finding and joining this forum almost two years ago, I've learned a TON more. Now I'm not just stumbling around alone in the dark. Now, with the help of all the fantastic TFO members, I can see and experience everyone else's enclosures and styles too.
> 
> There are a lot of good ways to house a tortoise indoors. Tank, tub, trough, table, and... closed chamber. Different methods work best for the various species and ages. Through all of my "experiments" and sharing the vast experience of others here on the forum, I have reached my current conclusion that "closed chambers", with a basking lamp inside, are the best means of housing the babies of most species. Everyone's situation is different, and we all live in different climates... heck our torts are all from different climates too. Still, overall, I have personally experienced the best results and seen the best results from others, in this style of enclosure. Several people come to mind, but Tyler, Neal, Kristina and KBaker, have especially shown their enclosures and the results. There are lots of others too, but these members have had the biggest influence on me recently.
> 
> Only in a closed chamber can I control the humidity properly. Its very dry where I live, and its a constant battle to maintain any humidity at all in most enclosures. In a closed chamber, its a piece of cake. I've used glass tanks and various styles of tortoise tables for years to house my chelonians, but the open tops let out all that beneficial humidity and heat. By putting my heat lamps and CHEs INSIDE the closed enclosure, they do NOT dry things out AND they use a lot less power to give me the same amount of heat. Plus, once they heat everything up and the thermostat kicks them off, the heat just stays in there. I'm using less electricity on my 4x8' closed chamber than I am on my 40 gallon open topped glass tank! (I have little electric meters called "Kill-A-Watt EZ"). The humidity is lower directly under the heat lamp, but its as high as I want to keep it all around that area and the rest of the enclosure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In theory this all sounds reasonable, but what happens in the real world? I've gotten the best results I've ever gotten in this type of enclosure. On a lot of my glass tanks I end up covering as much of the top as I can. It seems like the more and better I cover them, the better the results I get. But I still lose all my heat and humidity out of the hole that has to be there for my light fixtures. Like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This leads me to a big problem that has come up recently with several potential new tortoise keepers. Where does one go buy a "closed tortoise chamber" for their new pet? Most conventional enclosures are too shallow to have a closed top and still allow enough room for a hanging fixture with a hot bulb in it. I like the Vision tubs, but they are too short for this purpose. My leopard enclosure is 24" tall and that just barely accommodates things safely. When I build the next one it will be around 30" tall. I have not seen a pre-made enclosure with the right dimensions. Tyler showed me this one that he is using. I can't remember which species he is housing in this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember we are talking about housing babies. Not adults or even juveniles. Discussion is welcome here. I'm always wanting to learn more.


Do you know why I can’t see any of your pictures? There’s just a sad emoji.


----------



## LaSunshine

terryo said:


> I've been doing this with my boxie's for thirty years Tom, and with Pio and Solo since they were both hatchlings, with great results. Nothing new here for me..........


Wish I could see your pic


----------



## Tom

LaSunshine said:


> Do you know why I can’t see any of your pictures? There’s just a sad emoji.


The forum didn't used to have the ability to attach pics directly. We all had to use a third party pic hosting site and copy/paste the IMG codes after uploading our pics. These sites are all shutting down over the years, so our pics just disappear along with these sites. For the last few years, we've been able to load our pics directly to TFO, so this shouldn't happen any more as long as TFO stays operational.


----------



## Ca136244

JeffG said:


> Tom, I'm pretty sure you have said in the past that you don't use UVB lighting for your babies because you get them outside so much. The problem I have is that I can't get mine outside every day, so I feel that it is best to provide them with UVB light. I am currently using a 100 watt Powersun MVB (the smallest wattage it comes in), and it gives off so much heat that if I have it the proper distance from the surface and enclosed my entire table, it would quickly heat the whole thing up to well over 110 degrees.
> 
> Do you Have any suggestions? Would it be better to replace the MVB with a lower wattage heat bulb so that I can enclose the entire table even though I only get my torts outside twice a week right now? Or do you think it is better to continue as I am with as much of my table covered as possible. My little guys do seem to spend lots of time in their humid hide which is generally around 70% humidity.



when is a s skalata tortuous not considered a baby


----------



## boxraddict

I wonder if a 100watt heat bulb or a 60watt Che inside a 20 gallon long (30x12x12) would be overkill?


----------



## Blackdog1714

boxraddict said:


> I wonder if a 100watt heat bulb or a 60watt Che inside a 20 gallon long (30x12x12) would be overkill?


Either way you would want to link to a thermostat so you don't overheat. A 60 watt CHE would roast that small of a chamber unchecked. I have a 3'x11' closed enclosure that I heat to 90 on the warm end and 84 on the cool end with one 120 watt RHP and a 100 Watt CHE.


----------



## boxraddict

I have a zilla thermostat but am unsure about how to using it with a che bulb? I use them with my heat mats for snakes and my leopard gecko.... I was advised against using them with heat bulbs..


----------



## Tom

boxraddict said:


> I have a zilla thermostat but am unsure about how to using it with a che bulb? I use them with my heat mats for snakes and my leopard gecko.... I was advised against using them with heat bulbs..


FIrst, only use a CHE with a ceramic based hood that is rated for a larger wattage than your CHE. I prefer the ones from Home Depot.

Generally, I put the CHE over the middle of the enclosure if I am trying to maintain ambient with it. Sometimes you need two CHEs spread out to evenly heat a larger enclosure. I place the probe in a far corner, down low but out of reach of the tortoises, and away from all heat sources. This will ensure that the coldest part of your enclosure stays above the minimum temp. I find the dial on the thermostats to not be very accurate, but that is a good starting point. Set it to 80 for tropical species. Then use a thermometer or two spread around the enclosure to check temps, and make adjustments to the thermostat dial as needed to get the temp in the enclosure correct.


----------



## boxraddict

I’m heading out to Home Depot now. Will pick one up then. Thanks


----------



## boxraddict




----------



## Alexolivia

Hello Tom,
I am in the process of getting everything set up before I order a hatchling from you and wanted some tips. This is from the last tortoise I had. Since then I’ve bought a tub uvb. I was wondering if it’d be easier to make this a closed top or to start over? I was also curious how to attach the lights in the inside, the will they be too close? The closed enclosure is just for hatchling stage, correct?


----------



## Tom

Alexolivia said:


> Hello Tom,
> I am in the process of getting everything set up before I order a hatchling from you and wanted some tips. This is from the last tortoise I had. Since then I’ve bought a tub uvb. I was wondering if it’d be easier to make this a closed top or to start over? I was also curious how to attach the lights in the inside, the will they be too close? The closed enclosure is just for hatchling stage, correct?


Closed chambers simply separate the room air from the enclosure air. This makes it easier to maintain heat and humidity. When appropriately sized, they are good for any size tortoise.

They must be a minimum of 18 inches inside and 24 inches is better. In my 18 inchers, I use flush mounted light sockets and low wattage bulbs, instead of hanging domed fixtures. LEDs, UV tubes, and RHPs can be mounted to the ceiling.


----------



## Chip0282

Tom said:


> Been meaning to do this one for a while now...
> 
> Over the years I have kept a lot of reptiles in a lot of different ways. I've learned a lot of stuff about a lot of species. Since finding and joining this forum almost two years ago, I've learned a TON more. Now I'm not just stumbling around alone in the dark. Now, with the help of all the fantastic TFO members, I can see and experience everyone else's enclosures and styles too.
> 
> There are a lot of good ways to house a tortoise indoors. Tank, tub, trough, table, and... closed chamber. Different methods work best for the various species and ages. Through all of my "experiments" and sharing the vast experience of others here on the forum, I have reached my current conclusion that "closed chambers", with a basking lamp inside, are the best means of housing the babies of most species. Everyone's situation is different, and we all live in different climates... heck our torts are all from different climates too. Still, overall, I have personally experienced the best results and seen the best results from others, in this style of enclosure. Several people come to mind, but Tyler, Neal, Kristina and KBaker, have especially shown their enclosures and the results. There are lots of others too, but these members have had the biggest influence on me recently.
> 
> Only in a closed chamber can I control the humidity properly. Its very dry where I live, and its a constant battle to maintain any humidity at all in most enclosures. In a closed chamber, its a piece of cake. I've used glass tanks and various styles of tortoise tables for years to house my chelonians, but the open tops let out all that beneficial humidity and heat. By putting my heat lamps and CHEs INSIDE the closed enclosure, they do NOT dry things out AND they use a lot less power to give me the same amount of heat. Plus, once they heat everything up and the thermostat kicks them off, the heat just stays in there. I'm using less electricity on my 4x8' closed chamber than I am on my 40 gallon open topped glass tank! (I have little electric meters called "Kill-A-Watt EZ"). The humidity is lower directly under the heat lamp, but its as high as I want to keep it all around that area and the rest of the enclosure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In theory this all sounds reasonable, but what happens in the real world? I've gotten the best results I've ever gotten in this type of enclosure. On a lot of my glass tanks I end up covering as much of the top as I can. It seems like the more and better I cover them, the better the results I get. But I still lose all my heat and humidity out of the hole that has to be there for my light fixtures. Like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This leads me to a big problem that has come up recently with several potential new tortoise keepers. Where does one go buy a "closed tortoise chamber" for their new pet? Most conventional enclosures are too shallow to have a closed top and still allow enough room for a hanging fixture with a hot bulb in it. I like the Vision tubs, but they are too short for this purpose. My leopard enclosure is 24" tall and that just barely accommodates things safely. When I build the next one it will be around 30" tall. I have not seen a pre-made enclosure with the right dimensions. Tyler showed me this one that he is using. I can't remember which species he is housing in this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember we are talking about housing babies. Not adults or even juveniles. Discussion is welcome here. I'm always wanting to le





Tom said:


> Been meaning to do this one for a while now...
> 
> Over the years I have kept a lot of reptiles in a lot of different ways. I've learned a lot of stuff about a lot of species. Since finding and joining this forum almost two years ago, I've learned a TON more. Now I'm not just stumbling around alone in the dark. Now, with the help of all the fantastic TFO members, I can see and experience everyone else's enclosures and styles too.
> 
> There are a lot of good ways to house a tortoise indoors. Tank, tub, trough, table, and... closed chamber. Different methods work best for the various species and ages. Through all of my "experiments" and sharing the vast experience of others here on the forum, I have reached my current conclusion that "closed chambers", with a basking lamp inside, are the best means of housing the babies of most species. Everyone's situation is different, and we all live in different climates... heck our torts are all from different climates too. Still, overall, I have personally experienced the best results and seen the best results from others, in this style of enclosure. Several people come to mind, but Tyler, Neal, Kristina and KBaker, have especially shown their enclosures and the results. There are lots of others too, but these members have had the biggest influence on me recently.
> 
> Only in a closed chamber can I control the humidity properly. Its very dry where I live, and its a constant battle to maintain any humidity at all in most enclosures. In a closed chamber, its a piece of cake. I've used glass tanks and various styles of tortoise tables for years to house my chelonians, but the open tops let out all that beneficial humidity and heat. By putting my heat lamps and CHEs INSIDE the closed enclosure, they do NOT dry things out AND they use a lot less power to give me the same amount of heat. Plus, once they heat everything up and the thermostat kicks them off, the heat just stays in there. I'm using less electricity on my 4x8' closed chamber than I am on my 40 gallon open topped glass tank! (I have little electric meters called "Kill-A-Watt EZ"). The humidity is lower directly under the heat lamp, but its as high as I want to keep it all around that area and the rest of the enclosure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In theory this all sounds reasonable, but what happens in the real world? I've gotten the best results I've ever gotten in this type of enclosure. On a lot of my glass tanks I end up covering as much of the top as I can. It seems like the more and better I cover them, the better the results I get. But I still lose all my heat and humidity out of the hole that has to be there for my light fixtures. Like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This leads me to a big problem that has come up recently with several potential new tortoise keepers. Where does one go buy a "closed tortoise chamber" for their new pet? Most conventional enclosures are too shallow to have a closed top and still allow enough room for a hanging fixture with a hot bulb in it. I like the Vision tubs, but they are too short for this purpose. My leopard enclosure is 24" tall and that just barely accommodates things safely. When I build the next one it will be around 30" tall. I have not seen a pre-made enclosure with the right dimensions. Tyler showed me this one that he is using. I can't remember which species he is housing in this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember we are talking about housing babies. Not adults or even juveniles. Discussion is welcome here. I'm always wanting to learn more.


Can anybody report Tom's picture ? Because now it's all become no longer available. And I want to see this great idea


----------



## Tom

Chip0282 said:


> Can anybody report Tom's picture ? Because now it's all become no longer available. And I want to see this great idea


Those pics are gone, but here is the general idea:





New Stack of Animal Plastics CLosed Chambers


AKA: Tom's baby emporium. @GStars asked for a pic on my new baby raising enclosures the other day. I only had a partial, but I took a fuller one today. Each cage is 96x30 and divided in the middle into two 48x30 cages for starting babies. The colored tape on each upper right corner shows the...




tortoiseforum.org


----------



## Chip0282

Tom said:


> Those pics are gone, but here is the general idea:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Stack of Animal Plastics CLosed Chambers
> 
> 
> AKA: Tom's baby emporium. @GStars asked for a pic on my new baby raising enclosures the other day. I only had a partial, but I took a fuller one today. Each cage is 96x30 and divided in the middle into two 48x30 cages for starting babies. The colored tape on each upper right corner shows the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tortoiseforum.org


with that system, you didnt spot any mold ? we dont have orchid bard like many member in this forum use. suitable substrate we have here only coconut coir. Before when i put water, within some days, coconut coir at the bottom have mold, gray dot . Or something i did wrong so the mold come up ?


----------



## Tom

Chip0282 said:


> with that system, you didnt spot any mold ? we dont have orchid bard like many member in this forum use. suitable substrate we have here only coconut coir. Before when i put water, within some days, coconut coir at the bottom have mold, gray dot . Or something i did wrong so the mold come up ?


Coco coir won't support mold by itself. Your coir must be contaminated with something organic that the mold can grow on. Can you get ZooMed products there? If yes, you can buy repti-bark.


----------



## Chip0282

im in Indonesia, too bad zoomed repti bark is not available here. all the forest bark here using pine, so our choice only coco coir. Humidity at here usually 60%-75% , your opinion, still need to do closed chamber with substrate ?

majority tortoise keeper here use open top or box with ventilation, and only use pvc carpet


----------



## Chip0282

this is how the normal setup here


----------



## Tom

Chip0282 said:


> im in Indonesia, too bad zoomed repti bark is not available here. all the forest bark here using pine, so our choice only coco coir. Humidity at here usually 60%-75% , your opinion, still need to do closed chamber with substrate ?
> 
> majority tortoise keeper here use open top or box with ventilation, and only use pvc carpet


Depends on the species. Babies of most species should have 80% or higher humidity all the time. Some of the Testudo species are okay with less humidity. All will benefit from the use of a closed chamber.


----------



## Chip0282

One more thing. I try closed Chamber, but how to keep temperature from peaking out when you turn on basking lamp ? Because basking lamp (I try smaller wattage already) but still increase the ambiace temperature too much if turning on for long time. Or how long should we turn on the basking lamp ? (Che is there connected with thermostat) so basking lamp is only for basking purpose.


----------



## Tom

Chip0282 said:


> One more thing. I try closed Chamber, but how to keep temperature from peaking out when you turn on basking lamp ? Because basking lamp (I try smaller wattage already) but still increase the ambiace temperature too much if turning on for long time. Or how long should we turn on the basking lamp ? (Che is there connected with thermostat) so basking lamp is only for basking purpose.


You have to use low wattage basking lamps in a closed chamber. I use 45 watt ones in winter and 25 watt ones most of the year. You may also need to increase ventilation, but do keep an eye on humidity. The basking bulb should be on for 12-13 hours a day. A CHE controlled by a thermostat is used to keep ambient temp above the set point. The basking lamp should be able to do this during the day, so the CHE will usually only come on when needed at night. All these things must be balanced.


----------



## Franklinlatortuegrecque

Kristina said:


> I use lower wattage heat lamps, place them right in the glass aquarium, and use a plexiglass cover to seal in the humidity. I have not had any issues with mold, shell rot, or "lack of air-flow."
> 
> My Sulcatas, Redfoot (now yearling,) and Star hatchlings have been kept this way from day one and have grown smooth. I started my Greek (yearling now also) in a a sweater box with a humid hide, and she started to pyramid. It isn't bad, but it makes me feel like a failure.
> 
> Here are some pics of my aquariums.
> 
> As you can see in this one, the heat lamps are right down in the enclosure. The one over the water dish turns it into a little "sauna" and the smaller, darker of the two babies loves to lay in it. She will put her little head on the rim and go to sleep there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are the babies. They are bigger now (WAAAAAAYYYY past time to update pictures!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is where I kept my first Star before summer hit. You can see again the heat source is right down in there. In this case it is a 60 watt black light bulb (both this enclosure and the one above have these as a heat source with an additional florescent for light.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the result...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next is my little Redfoot. This one started out in an old Metaframe slate bottom aquarium. The hood for the tank has two incandescent sockets, which hold compact florescents, and the other hanging down is a 60 watt black light bulb.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having that set up made this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> seems like a very nice job done!


Can I ask how high the humidity is? 
I like the idea of the cover!
I have my greek tortoise(which turns out to be an hermann's) for 2 weeks as a present he/she is about 10months.
I have a glass tank and use coco substrate, the overall humidity is 50-80% (read 50 during daytime and 80% at night.)

When it goes of to his humid sleepspot wich is a plastic container turned over with a hole in it. I put a piece of wood and a towel over it to keep it more humid.
Do you keep the "lit" on it at all times?
I'm also still figuring out how high.the humidity should be, I Don't want it to be sick ?

I just found out I bought a light with only uva. The last 2 days it doesn't really eat like it used to before. So I just ordered myself a raptor mercury uv bulb with both uva and uvb. The same Watt as I have now. Thing is I can't put the lamp inside cause it would burn my tortoise so during the day when the light is on I keep just a part closed of.
Sorry for the long message ??

Here are a few pictures ( and yes, I've been told the enclosure is too small)
, I hope to build a bigger something within the year ? when the weather is better we take walks in the parcs. But its rainy now so a bad idea. Belgium is a country of rain snow and sun in 1 day ?


----------



## Tom

Franklinlatortuegrecque said:


> Can I ask how high the humidity is?
> I like the idea of the cover!
> I have my greek tortoise(which turns out to be an hermann's) for 2 weeks as a present he/she is about 10months.
> I have a glass tank and use coco substrate, the overall humidity is 50-80% (read 50 during daytime and 80% at night.)
> 
> When it goes of to his humid sleepspot wich is a plastic container turned over with a hole in it. I put a piece of wood and a towel over it to keep it more humid.
> Do you keep the "lit" on it at all times?
> I'm also still figuring out how high.the humidity should be, I Don't want it to be sick ?
> 
> I just found out I bought a light with only uva. The last 2 days it doesn't really eat like it used to before. So I just ordered myself a raptor mercury uv bulb with both uva and uvb. The same Watt as I have now. Thing is I can't put the lamp inside cause it would burn my tortoise so during the day when the light is on I keep just a part closed of.
> Sorry for the long message ??
> 
> Here are a few pictures ( and yes, I've been told the enclosure is too small)
> , I hope to build a bigger something within the year ? when the weather is better we take walks in the parcs. But its rainy now so a bad idea. Belgium is a country of rain snow and sun in 1 day ?


Please give this a read:





The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise


I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...




tortoiseforum.org


----------



## Michaelangelosmom

Yvonne G said:


> Oh, Tom...I'm crushed! You neglected to mention my very cheap and easy "closed chamber" idea. I've mentioned it many times here on the forum and it works quite well...but its not very pretty.
> 
> I take two long sheets of aluminum foil (the kind you cook with) and I lay them side-by-side. Then I fold together the long edge of both, making one big sheet. Then I make a cover over the whole habitat including the light fixtures, similar to, but not as pretty, as Tyler's.


Hi! I was searching through posts on enclosures and came across your idea about keeping the humidity and heat inside. I am making my sulcata a new place to live. He is about 20 months old, not sure, because my grandson said he was little when his mom got him. Anyway, the tubs are very deep (I am putting two together for a total of 5 foot length), so I am wondering if the foil method would help with the heat and humidty.He has a very small amount of pyramiding and I don't want it to get any worse. I have been soaking him and spraying his current home twice a day. Is there a picture you have of the foil top you can show ne? Also, at what age are they not considered a baby sulcata. Thank you for your help!


----------



## Tom

Michaelangelosmom said:


> Hi! I was searching through posts on enclosures and came across your idea about keeping the humidity and heat inside. I am making my sulcata a new place to live. He is about 20 months old, not sure, because my grandson said he was little when his mom got him. Anyway, the tubs are very deep (I am putting two together for a total of 5 foot length), so I am wondering if the foil method would help with the heat and humidty.He has a very small amount of pyramiding and I don't want it to get any worse. I have been soaking him and spraying his current home twice a day. Is there a picture you have of the foil top you can show ne? Also, at what age are they not considered a baby sulcata. Thank you for your help!


They all grow at different rates. Telling us his age doesn't tell us his size. So how big is he? I ask because 5 feet is pretty small for a 20 month old.

I prefer to use closed chambers rather than foil on top. It works better and it looks better too.

Babies are generally under one year. Yearlings after that, and then juveniles. Sulcatas grow so fast that I usually just start calling them juveniles once they reach 8-10 inches at about one year or a little more.


----------



## Michaelangelosmom

Tom said:


> They all grow at different rates. Telling us his age doesn't tell us his size. So how big is he? I ask because 5 feet is pretty small for a 20 month old.
> 
> I prefer to use closed chambers rather than foil on top. It works better and it looks better too.
> 
> Babies are generally under one year. Yearlings after that, and then juveniles. Sulcatas grow so fast that I usually just start calling them juveniles once they reach 8-10 inches at about one year or a little more.


I'm really new at all of this, so, to measure his length do I measure the length of his shell? My grandson had the tort bought for him a year ago this past July and he said he was very tiny. Due to his small habitat that was bought for him (a small aquarim) and he lived in that for almost a year before I started helping him to care for him correctly. His growth may have been stunted due to that. I just measured him from front shell to the back and he is 4 1/2 inches long. We are working on getting everything together as I have read on your posts including the lights and heat. He is very active, poops well and urinateswell. When I take him outside he really likes it and moves around quickly and eats. I have been spraying his habitat twice a day and soaking him daily. I have been doing this for the past four months, as I just found out through reading the forums here. He mostly eats weeds from our back yard which hasn't been treated. I get these daily for him.I am really crazy about him, even if I am an ole grandma and just want to take good care of him. I am sending a recent picture, so maybe that will help. Thank you for all your help.


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## Tom

Michaelangelosmom said:


> I'm really new at all of this, so, to measure his length do I measure the length of his shell? My grandson had the tort bought for him a year ago this past July and he said he was very tiny. Due to his small habitat that was bought for him (a small aquarim) and he lived in that for almost a year before I started helping him to care for him correctly. His growth may have been stunted due to that. I just measured him from front shell to the back and he is 4 1/2 inches long. We are working on getting everything together as I have read on your posts including the lights and heat. He is very active, poops well and urinateswell. When I take him outside he really likes it and moves around quickly and eats. I have been spraying his habitat twice a day and soaking him daily. I have been doing this for the past four months, as I just found out through reading the forums here. He mostly eats weeds from our back yard which hasn't been treated. I get these daily for him.I am really crazy about him, even if I am an ole grandma and just want to take good care of him. I am sending a recent picture, so maybe that will help. Thank you for all your help.


All that sounds pretty good.

The measurement most of us use is called SCL, straight carapace length. Easiest way to do this is to put a ruler or tape measure end up against a wall and put the tortoise on top of the tape measure with its face and shell right up against the wall too. Then look down over the back end of the tortoise at your tape measure to see how long it is.

Just a note to inform you: The size of the enclosure did not stunt him. This is an old myth and its not true of any animal. I used to hear it with fish too. The size of the enclosure has nothing to do with how large an animal is genetically programmed to get. Incorrect care in some way or other is what is responsible for the low growth rate, but you've got those problems solved now and this little guy will be on his way to giant-hood soon.


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## Michaelangelosmom

Thank you so much for your help and kindness.


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## a.tortuga

@Tom I’ve been learning a lot reading thIs thread. Here is my first attempt at a closed chamber enclosure. I got a 50 gallon storage tub from Target that cost $25. It is cheaper than those tortoise tables sold online (which I have bought previously). I hope for some encouraging words. I’m sure I will make more modifications and it’s been fun to make!


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## Tom

a.tortuga said:


> @Tom I’ve been learning a lot reading thIs thread. Here is my first attempt at a closed chamber enclosure. I got a 50 gallon storage tub from Target that cost $25. It is cheaper than those tortoise tables sold online (which I have bought previously). I hope for some encouraging words. I’m sure I will make more modifications and it’s been fun to make!


Encouraging words... That is not my forté. I'm more of a bluntly point out all the problems to try and help avoid disaster, kind of guy. I'm just kidding around, but your post did give me a chuckle. 

Great find on the tub, and I see you've got at least one heat source hanging inside which is good!

Now back to my usual M.O.: 
1. The moss is no good. All torts will eat it and its an impaction hazard. I'd remove that right away.
2. Are you sure that sedum is one of the non-toxic varieties?
3. Red bulbs should never be used over tortoises. Use a CHE instead for ambient heat. If that is your basking bulb, use a white frosted type regular incandescent flood bulb.

I also enjoy making enclosures and watching the animals enjoy the work I've done. Its clear you spent a lot of time on this one.


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## a.tortuga

I took your advice and have been working on the setup for at least a week before I got the tortoise (which just arrived). I've seen conflicting info on whether to use the moss but I agree it's too much. I had a CHE but it ran way too hot so I will get a different one. I knew there would be editing that needs to be done once the tortoise arrived. I checked the tortoise trust and the tortoise table online on the plants so they should be ok and I have them growing in water not soil.

Thank you! Yes it's like a little diorama to make a nice home for these animals. I'm already thinking of ways I can make it bigger for the future.


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## Tom

a.tortuga said:


> I took your advice and have been working on the setup for at least a week before I got the tortoise (which just arrived). I've seen conflicting info on whether to use the moss but I agree it's too much. I had a CHE but it ran way too hot so I will get a different one. I knew there would be editing that needs to be done once the tortoise arrived. I checked the tortoise trust and the tortoise table online on the plants so they should be ok and I have them growing in water not soil.
> 
> Thank you! Yes it's like a little diorama to make a nice home for these animals. I'm already thinking of ways I can make it bigger for the future.


Here is the care sheet for them. It will have more and better info than this old thread about closed chambers.





The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise


I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...




tortoiseforum.org





CHEs must be run on a thermostat. I'd get a thermostat and go back to that for ambient temperature maintenance. Or get a radiant heat panel, which is even better.

That is a gorgeous little star. Congratulations!


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## a.tortuga

Tom said:


> Here is the care sheet for them. It will have more and better info than this old thread about closed chambers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise
> 
> 
> I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tortoiseforum.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CHEs must be run on a thermostat. I'd get a thermostat and go back to that for ambient temperature maintenance. Or get a radiant heat panel, which is even better.
> 
> That is a gorgeous little star. Congratulations!


My thermostat is arriving tomorrow! I even have a camera set up just to check on things when I'm not home. Tortoise nerd alert! Thanks!


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## Tom

a.tortuga said:


> My thermostat is arriving tomorrow! I even have a camera set up just to check on things when I'm not home. Tortoise nerd alert! Thanks!


Tortoise nerds are my FAVORITE kind of nerds, followed closely by snake and lizard nerds...


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