# antibiotics



## mark1 (Dec 24, 2021)

Tom said:


> Seconds after I type this, Mark1 will come along and argue each point both this and tell you how great injectable Baytril is. He and I disagree on this point, and I choose to take the word of the vets I work with that treat tortoises regularly, and my own observations of the damage this drug does.



i don't want to "hijack" a post , so here's my in 2 seconds , 2 cents reply .......... i'm more than willing to listen to anyone , i have an open mind , i'm just picky as to what i let in , facts and logic are certainly welcome .....

Tom , from my perspective all antibiotics are GREAT , i've raised a lot of animals , not to mention i would have been dead before i was 10 without them ...... antibiotics have substantially raised the life expectancy of us and every other animal on this planet , not reduced it , that is a fact ............. no vet with a clue does not recognize what a GREAT developement baytril was to veterinary medicine ...... i'd be interested in hearing about your experiences with "the damage this drug does" ? or anybodies personal experience with the damage done by baytril ? and not that it's a painful injection , given the choice between a painful treatment and death is usually a no-brainer ........... you could argue that the choice is between a painful treatment and a non-painful treatment ..... which is ,if that is a choice , is another no brainer ..... when it comes to tortoises and turtles , to me , oral or injectable is a "no-brainer" ....... and apparently to any herp vet i've ever had , i've NEVER been prescribed an oral antibiotic for any reptile i've ever owned , unless you consider flagyl an antibiotic ....

as for antibiotics being hard on an animal ..... well , my observation is antibiotics are used on , the most fragile , critically ill , at deaths door patients there are , including critically ill neonates and premature infants ? 

i seen a recent paper on ranavirus in eastern box turtles ... the turtles were classified as asymptomatic , mild symptoms and severe symptoms...... most all of them also tested positive for either mycoplasma infections and or herpesvirus aside from the rana virus which all tested positive for ........ only the severely symptomatic turtles were given baytril , the survival rate was 50% for severe turtles , some of the severely ill turtles tested positive for all three infections , rana virus , herpesvirus and mycoplasma .... the normal mortality from herpes virus alone is 80-100% , the normal mortaily of rana virus alone is 90-100% .... the survival rate for asymptomatic turtles was 55% ......... i can assure you these are some of the best herp vets in the world , giving a damaging drug to severely ill turtles at deaths door , my " doesn't make sense radar" comes up when i hear how "hard" this drug is on anl animal ?????

i almost always cite expert sourced papers with my opinion , i leave my experiences out of it , this is the internet , you could be whatever kind of expert you think you are ...... i've had some outstanding exotic /herp vets , Wallace Wendt (he was on the forefront of this type of veterinary care), Norman Toludzieki seen every kind of reptile , sick reptile , that ever entered this country , Wallace Wendt's daughter Victoria Wendt ( when folks say they done something their whole lives , hers was literally her whole life) , Jaime Lindstrom ......... my veterinary experiences would be from them , they all won my trust .......the citations i use are easy for me to find , because my vets opinions are easily corroborated and they are my experience ...... 

in most cases an RI is either a bacterial infection , a viral infection , or both ............ i have a group of what could be considered wild box turtles in my back yard for 20yrs .... i've had a few get ill , i asked my vet one time why would they get ill ,they're living their natural lives ? he told me "wild box turtles get these same diseases , they either persist or they die , in captivity we help them persist" , simple enough for me .......

front leg only injections , i'm with you , cause i see no reason to not , but i do know stuff like this


*REPTILE DRUG THERAPY
Christoph Mans, Dr. med. vet., DACZM 
University of Wisconsin, School of Veterinary Medicine 2015 Linden Drive, Madison, WI 53706, USA


Renal portal system *
_"Several studies have been performed to investigate the effects of hindlimb vs. forelimb injection on plasma levels of a variety of antibiotics which undergo excretion by either glomerular filtration (e.g. gentamicin) or tubular excretion (e.g. carbenicillin). It was concluded from these studies that generally the effects of hindlimb administration of drugs are unlikely to be clinically significant and that the caudal body half is a suitable parenteral drug administration site in reptiles. Therefore injection site is considered irrelevant in regards to drug kinetics by some authors, which recommend to administer drugs anywhere in the reptile body. "

*Hepatic portal system*
" Drugs that are metabolized or excreted predominately by the liver will undergo a hepatic first-pass effect (e.g. opioids, most anesthetics, oxytocin, etc.) and should therefore not be administered in the caudal body half. In contrast, drugs that do not undergo a significant hepatic first-pass effect (e.g. fluroquinolones, many cephalosporins, aminoglycosides, etc.) can be administered in the caudal body half in reptiles without concerns about altered drug kinetics. "_


----------



## jonini525 (Feb 18, 2022)

mark1 said:


> i don't want to "hijack" a post , so here's my in 2 seconds , 2 cents reply .......... i'm more than willing to listen to anyone , i have an open mind , i'm just picky as to what i let in , facts and logic are certainly welcome .....
> 
> Tom , from my perspective all antibiotics are GREAT , i've raised a lot of animals , not to mention i would have been dead before i was 10 without them ...... antibiotics have substantially raised the life expectancy of us and every other animal on this planet , not reduced it , that is a fact ............. no vet with a clue does not recognize what a GREAT developement baytril was to veterinary medicine ...... i'd be interested in hearing about your experiences with "the damage this drug does" ? or anybodies personal experience with the damage done by baytril ? and not that it's a painful injection , given the choice between a painful treatment and death is usually a no-brainer ........... you could argue that the choice is between a painful treatment and a non-painful treatment ..... which is ,if that is a choice , is another no brainer ..... when it comes to tortoises and turtles , to me , oral or injectable is a "no-brainer" ....... and apparently to any herp vet i've ever had , i've NEVER been prescribed an oral antibiotic for any reptile i've ever owned , unless you consider flagyl an antibiotic ....
> 
> ...


I would like to ask sth.My res was prescribed oral baytril 0.18 ml per day due to RI. However, I find it really hard to force feed her . Is it ok if u use the same dosage and inject baytril into her forelegs 1 time per 3 days with the same dosage?


----------



## mark1 (Feb 18, 2022)

jonini525 said:


> I would like to ask sth.My res was prescribed oral baytril 0.18 ml per day due to RI. However, I find it really hard to force feed her . Is it ok if u use the same dosage and inject baytril into her forelegs 1 time per 3 days with the same dosage?


ask your vet for injectable baytril , i've never seen oral baytril in solution ..... i've only ever seen injectable and tablets , i believe they may compound an oral solution , i wouldn't know whether or not that would be injectable , i kinda doubt it ....... injectable ceftazidime(fortaz) would be a good choice for a turtle , mycoplasma infections are not common in turtles , at least none i've ever had ......ceftazidime doesn't keep long and requires good storage practices , kept frozen/cold .........


----------



## Lyn W (Feb 23, 2022)

jonini525 said:


> I would like to ask sth.My res was prescribed oral baytril 0.18 ml per day due to RI. However, I find it really hard to force feed her . Is it ok if u use the same dosage and inject baytril into her forelegs 1 time per 3 days with the same dosage?


I used to give my tort his dose orally by putting small drops at a time onto food he loves e.g. cucumber.


----------



## biochemnerd808 (Mar 8, 2022)

The exotics/reptile vet we went to in the past didn't use Baytril injections for RI, they made an inhalation chamber to put the sick tortoise inside for 30 mins twice a day, and then with a special pump/filter system, pumped micronized Baytril/saline fog into the chamber. 
This brought the antibiotic directly to the part of the tortoise thst needed it the most - nares and lungs (tortoises don't have sinuses). 
She treated two very sick rescues I brought her in this way. Their organ function was too impaired to give them injectible Ceftadizime. This would have been her drug of choice normally. Both tortoises got better, and are still alive now, living with their new families since 8 years now.


----------



## Yvonne G (Mar 9, 2022)

biochemnerd808 said:


> The exotics/reptile vet we went to in the past didn't use Baytril injections for RI, they made an inhalation chamber to put the sick tortoise inside for 30 mins twice a day, and then with a special pump/filter system, pumped micronized Baytril/saline fog into the chamber.
> This brought the antibiotic directly to the part of the tortoise thst needed it the most - nares and lungs (tortoises don't have sinuses).
> She treated two very sick rescues I brought her in this way. Their organ function was too impaired to give them injectible Ceftadizime. This would have been her drug of choice normally. Both tortoises got better, and are still alive now, living with their new families since 8 years now.


I have been using a Baytril nasal spray for several years. I mix 1 part Baytril with 9 parts sterile saline and squirt it into the nostrils twice a day. Works much better than the injection.


----------



## biochemnerd808 (Mar 9, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> I have been using a Baytril nasal spray for several years. I mix 1 part Baytril with 9 parts sterile saline and squirt it into the nostrils twice a day. Works much better than the injection.


Interesting!


----------



## jcase (Sep 30, 2022)

I recognize the importance of antibiotics, but im not a baytil fan unless fortaz is failing. Fortaz is my preferred route, seems much less rough on the animal and far easier to get my hands on.


----------



## TortoiseLili (Sep 30, 2022)

mark1 said:


> i don't want to "hijack" a post , so here's my in 2 seconds , 2 cents reply .......... i'm more than willing to listen to anyone , i have an open mind , i'm just picky as to what i let in , facts and logic are certainly welcome .....
> 
> Tom , from my perspective all antibiotics are GREAT , i've raised a lot of animals , not to mention i would have been dead before i was 10 without them ...... antibiotics have substantially raised the life expectancy of us and every other animal on this planet , not reduced it , that is a fact ............. no vet with a clue does not recognize what a GREAT developement baytril was to veterinary medicine ...... i'd be interested in hearing about your experiences with "the damage this drug does" ? or anybodies personal experience with the damage done by baytril ? and not that it's a painful injection , given the choice between a painful treatment and death is usually a no-brainer ........... you could argue that the choice is between a painful treatment and a non-painful treatment ..... which is ,if that is a choice , is another no brainer ..... when it comes to tortoises and turtles , to me , oral or injectable is a "no-brainer" ....... and apparently to any herp vet i've ever had , i've NEVER been prescribed an oral antibiotic for any reptile i've ever owned , unless you consider flagyl an antibiotic ....
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for this information.


----------

