# Setting up for TDSD Study 1st question - Humidity



## Markw84 (Dec 17, 2016)

I am currently setting up two new incubators I have made designed to hold temperatures within 0.2 f of the set point. That is done and they are working wonderfully. I have extremely accurate sensors I place in the egg containers that will right next to the eggs that records the exact temperature and humidity within 0.1 f and 0.1% RH. It records those reading every 1 minute and provides a graph of the results I download to excel for an exact readout of conditions over the entire incubation period in one minute intervals.

With this setup I am now questioning the best thing to do as far as humidity. Most successful breeders seem to favor the water / vermiculite 1:1 mix in a closed container with a few holes in the top of the sides. When I do that with these sensors in a simulated egg container using golf balls for eggs - I get nothing but a constant 100% humidity reading in the containers with the "eggs". There seems to be pretty unanimous consensus that no matter what medium you use - it is kept moist in the closed container holding the eggs. I cannot do that without 100% humidity.

SO - are we saying that 100% humidity in the egg chamber is what we are trying to achieve? When I read articles and descriptions of techniques that actually measure humidity, they all seem to suggest in the 80 - 90% range. some even lower. But none of the techniques I described above that most suggest for placing the eggs produces anything but 100% humidity.

I've always hatched eggs myself over the last two decades using the closed Tupperware style box with hole towards the top and a damp medium inside. Always had good success and high hatch rates. But never really put sensors inside before to actually MEASURE the humidity.

With my new setups I can control the humidity of the entire incubator to any humidity level I want. So perhaps it would be better control to use open topped egg containers and control the humidity that way. But what is the desired humidity then? Are we SAYING that 80% or so sounds good, despite most all of us seem to have been using a system that actually produces 100% RH?

Input / Comments please!


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## wellington (Dec 17, 2016)

Wow, love it. I have not hatched many eggs. In no way an expert, just saying what I have learned. Anyway, I was told to run 80%. My understanding, of the way I have been told and/or read is if it's too wet/high humidity, the eggs will I absorb to much moisture and will develop many cracks and go bad.
The approx. 6 clutches I have had, only one hatched, the incubator read 75-85%, most of the time 80% which was my goal. Of course the sensor is at the inside top the lid. No idea what it would read at egg level.
Very interesting thread.


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## Markw84 (Dec 18, 2016)

wellington said:


> Wow, love it. I have not hatched many eggs. In no way an expert, just saying what I have learned. Anyway, I was told to run 80%. My understanding, of the way I have been told and/or read is if it's too wet/high humidity, the eggs will I absorb to much moisture and will develop many cracks and go bad.
> The approx. 6 clutches I have had, only one hatched, the incubator read 75-85%, most of the time 80% which was my goal. Of course the sensor is at the inside top the lid. No idea what it would read at egg level.
> Very interesting thread.


Thanks for the reply. Most everyone seems to "control" humidity by feel or look. That is exactly what most all experiences we have to pull from entail - No real data from a sensor where the egg is actually placed, and most all our incubators and thermometers / hygrometers are questionable as far as accuracy. Let alone temps an humidity within the incubator varying with room temps over the course of 3 months or more incubation time. Even if you read Behler's Center's Goode's paper on TDSD in Platynota, the paper qualifies it's findings with their own questions about their temperature accuracy to a degree to pinpoint the pivotal point, etc. And no humidity data. Yet most papers on TDSD often remark that Humidity as well as Temperature may play a role in triggering hormonal activity that seems to promote or subdue gonad development. So maybe some of the problems we run into with buying so many TSF hatchlings turning out to be male may be a result of lack of humidity control, or inaccurate thermometers?? So I would like to start with controlling precise humidity and make temperature the variable. But what is ideal? Most say 80% or so. Yet most all techniques I read about actually used create a 100% RH. Which is it????


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## Yvonne G (Dec 18, 2016)

How is your study going to address the timing question. I've read that sex is determined at a certain time during the process - at what temperature it is at that certain time. 

Does humidity play a role in sex determination, or just temperature?

I've always done the seat-of-the pants method.


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## Markw84 (Dec 18, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> How is your study going to address the timing question. I've read that sex is determined at a certain time during the process - at what temperature it is at that certain time.
> 
> Does humidity play a role in sex determination, or just temperature?
> 
> I've always done the seat-of-the pants method.


So far as I've read or heard about, no one has determined if humidity ALSO plays a role, but most TDSD papers I've read speculate that it could play a role. So I want to control it to the degree to NOT make it a variable.

I will be varying timing as well as temperatures with different groups. From my studies and experiences so far, I am leaning towards the theories that Temperature has a cumulative effect during the temperature sensitive period that seems to be highest 1/3 through incubation an lasting mostly the entire middle trimester. But with platynota, what does diapause do to that timing? And with varying diapause formulas, how does that effect it? Some of the most successful programs diapause at 65f for 30 days. Others do room temp for a week, then 65f for 4 weeks, then room temp. The Behler Center, hatching over 100 last year with only 1 not hatching - uses placing a box under the tables in one of their building, letting the eggs fluctuate from 69f to 82f for 6 weeks.

So lots of questions to get into. A long term endeavor. But for this first post, I want to try to settle on the Humidity best to use so I can be consistent with that throughout.

So hopefully the experienced breeders will contribute here and we can come up with an idea of the best humidity that gets the best results.


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## wellington (Dec 18, 2016)

Let's see if we can alert some others here. @Tom @ALDABRAMAN @allegraf @deadheadvet
@Redfoot NERD @Neal @DeanS
That's all I can think of off hand. 

If there is a way, while you are doing this, you could at the same time, test the humidity levels using one of the incubator type gauges and placed in the same manner as the incubator ones, but in the same container as the one you are testing, this could possibly help with comparing not only the humidity within your own setup, but your setup with others that have used the incubators and what was produced, hatch times and rates. It would give, I think, a more accurate comparison from your testing/readings to what most others are getting.
I hope you get what I'm trying to say. Having what'd time trying to explain.


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## Markw84 (Dec 18, 2016)

wellington said:


> Let's see if we can alert some others here. @Tom @aldabrama @allegraf @deadheadvet
> @Redfoot NERD @Neal @DeanS
> That's all I can think of off hand.
> 
> ...


Sorry, Barb. You lost me! I have not seen accounts of anyone sharing what humidity they use from a gauge placed next to the eggs in the egg container itself. And if gauge accuracy is the issue, the biggest problem is variability with the same type gauges. An accurate gauge is more expensive than most choose to invest in, yet alone one small enough to go in the egg container with the eggs and produce readouts throughout the incubation to watch for fluctuations, media drying out before we check, etc, etc. Those who do cite humidity are usually talking about 80% or so, yet their very techniques for setting up the eggs produce 100% at the egg when I duplicate it.


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## KevinGG (Dec 18, 2016)

I know Behler Center uses closed Tupperware containers with all of their hatchlings. I never saw a humidity gauge in individual containers. Don't remember if they measured humidity inside their incubators but I imagine this would be useless with closed top containers. So if you have found that all closed top containers are kept at 100%, Behler is incubating their hatchlings at 100%. Don't know if this is new info for you or not.


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## Markw84 (Dec 18, 2016)

Thanks Kevin. I studied their incubator setups pretty closely and asked them lots of questions. They don't monitor humidity. Just rely on keeping the medium in the closed containers moist the same as most people talk about. They make no effort to control the incubator humidity at all since the individual egg containers are sealed. They don't monitor humidity in the containers other than " keeping it moist".

So are we to conclude that individual containers at 100% RH is the way to go??????? Any others willing to share??


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## KevinGG (Dec 18, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> Thanks Kevin. I studied their incubator setups pretty closely and asked them lots of questions. They don't monitor humidity. Just rely on keeping the medium in the closed containers moist the same as most people talk about. They make no effort to control the incubator humidity at all since the individual egg containers are sealed. They don't monitor humidity in the containers other than " keeping it moist".
> 
> So are we to conclude that individual containers at 100% RH is the way to go??????? Any others willing to share??



Yeah that's what I thought. I think 100% is a safe bet seeing as everyone has been successful with it. Can't imagine anyone here has done their own studies. Maybe @Will has some insights.


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## cdmay (Dec 18, 2016)

Excellent thread!
The question of humidity has also been raised by long term breeders when it comes to extra (supermumerary) scutes and other shell deformities. 
I have to admit that for many of us we incubate eggs 'by feel', for me meaning I don't know what my humidity is...but I know to look for and feel for when I open my incubators. Kind of like my grandma in Miami making fried chicken. No measurements, no timing, just knowing.


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## deadheadvet (Dec 18, 2016)

I currently have 11 Platynota eggs cooling down for 45 days. I have no supplemental water trays since the containers are sealed and I periodically check to make sure there is not condensation accumulating on the inside lid. I mix 1:1 course vermiculate to water ( by weight , not volume) After 45 days, into the incubator they go. Sealed lid and I monitor condensation as previously mentioned, If there is, OI just wipe it off w/ paper towel. As far as temperature probe in the container, the container is not sealed and will affect moisture. I use a laser thermometer right into the container to monitor temp. I keep a tray of water inside the incubator to maintain humidity, but I am not measuring the humidity, If the substrate is too dry, then I add more water to the tray. Water dripping onto the eggs can lead to embryonic death, so If there is too much humidity, I would consider putting a few holes in the lid.


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## cdmay (Dec 18, 2016)

I would agree with Deadheadvet, water actually dripping onto the eggs, or anywhere else in the incubator is way too much .


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## Markw84 (Dec 19, 2016)

cdmay said:


> Excellent thread!
> The question of humidity has also been raised by long term breeders when it comes to extra (supermumerary) scutes and other shell deformities.
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Markw84 (Dec 19, 2016)

deadheadvet said:


> I currently have 11 Platynota eggs cooling down for 45 days. I have no supplemental water trays since the containers are sealed and I periodically check to make sure there is not condensation accumulating on the inside lid. I mix 1:1 course vermiculate to water ( by weight , not volume) After 45 days, into the incubator they go. Sealed lid and I monitor condensation as previously mentioned, If there is, OI just wipe it off w/ paper towel. As far as temperature probe in the container, the container is not sealed and will affect moisture. I use a laser thermometer right into the container to monitor temp. I keep a tray of water inside the incubator to maintain humidity, but I am not measuring the humidity, If the substrate is too dry, then I add more water to the tray. Water dripping onto the eggs can lead to embryonic death, so If there is too much humidity, I would consider putting a few holes in the lid.


Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. Very helpful. I want to hear examples like this of how people do control humidity and if they do actually measure it.

I can, with my current setup, get any humidity I want, and am happy with the setup. I just am a bit reticent to go with the 100% is seems everyone is actually using by testing the various recommended setups. The dilemma - it seems we all tend to feel 100% RH is too high and risks embryo suffocation. Yet our recommended techniques produce 100%!!!!


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## Markw84 (Dec 19, 2016)

Apparently the way I chose to post above did not work. let me try again and see if I can correct the formatting....



cdmay said:


> Excellent thread!
> The question of humidity has also been raised by long term breeders when it comes to extra (supermumerary) scutes and other shell deformities.
> .


TMI ALERT!! If you are interested, I am posting technical thoughts/opinions here, But this is where some of my kids would start rolling their eyes!!

Yes, that is an interesting issue I want to explore as well. From my current position, Scute placement happens before sex determination in the embryo development. Placodes form on the carapace of the embryo at about day 22 in a 90 day incubation - which sets scute placement. By day 31 the carapace scutes would be delineated. I am believing the start of the process that develops sex starts at day 25-28. At that time, the hormonal balance - in particular the production of aromatase, either will convert androgen to estrogen at higher temps, or, at lower temps, not enough conversion takes place - resulting in gonadal development. This is a cumulative effect. So the longer the yolk environment remains rich in aromatase - the more estrogen developed - female sex organ develops.

So - the earlier conditions around and up to day 22 through 30 would be effecting scute placement and delineation, while conditions starting at day 25 and probably lasting until about day 55-60 determine sex outcome. There is an overlap, so I would theorize higher temps at day 20 or so, could lead to abnormal scutes, and start the process leading to female. This would account for why most abnormal scute tortoises are female. But high temps with a subsequent drop in temperature around day 30-40 start limiting additional aromatase production and then results in a male. Since the temperature effects of sex setting are cumulative, higher than normal early temps that would possible cause scute deformity, would require a longer, cooler environment to reverse the starting of the female cycle. That would account for why male scute deformity is relatively more rare.

So that's my thoughts on this so far. I don't see it as a humidity issue at this point of understanding. BUT... So much yet to learn and discover!!


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## Markw84 (Dec 19, 2016)

cdmay said:


> I have to admit that for many of us we incubate eggs 'by feel', for me meaning I don't know what my humidity is...but I know to look for and feel for when I open my incubators. Kind of like my grandma in Miami making fried chicken. No measurements, no timing, just knowing.



EXACTLY! I have been doing the same for about 35 years now. However, I actually use paper towels as the medium I place eggs on (for at least the past 30 years now). I put in 6-8 layers of damp paper towel, then push and indentation in where I want to place the egg. Stays nice and clean. No worries about ingestion with the hatchlings. And very easy to judge moisture level. Like @deadheadvet , I have to wipe the occasional condensation off the top of the lid to avoid drips, but it's worked great for me in hatching over 1000 turtles and tortoises with 90%+ hatch rates.

But now I would like to be more exact. Does all our humidity in the egg container hover around 100%, often creating condensation. Then drop as the medium dries until we check the eggs the next time and notice we need to add a little water??? If so what does that do to effect sex determination if anything? Or as you bring up, scute abnormality? I simply want to take that variable out of the equation. But in trying to settle on a humidity to maintain, there is very conflicting advice from the same people who actually do address humidity levels. Most all will state they believe 80% or so is ideal. To avoid 100% as it risks embryo suffocation. Yet the very techniques they promote produces 100% humidity when you actually copy and monitor their techniques. So I am repeating myself on this several times on this thread so far, but I would really like to hear from more on this. Get a consensus.

Would love to hear from @Tom @skottip @zovick @KenS @kingsley @G-stars @Will @tortadise @ALDABRAMAN or anyone else I am not thinking of right now that has hatched a considerable number of tortoises.


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## Tom (Dec 19, 2016)

In the past I used Hovbators, filled the bottom canals with water, and plugged all the vent holes in them. With this method I used 2 or 4 1/8 inch vent holes in the sides of my shoe boxes that held the eggs. This method worked well for me, but each Hovabator could only hold 2 shoe boxes of eggs, so I had to run a bunch of them. In recent years I've been using a Brinsea bird brooder chamber. This holds a much more precise temperature. It has a fan that runs continuously and I found that it was drying my media out. Now I've plugged all the vent holes in the shoe boxes and I run a tub of water directly under the fan. This works well and doesn't dry out my media now. I only add a little water to the media once or twice during a 3 month incubation period and again when hatching is imminent.

I also use the 1 : 1 method with vermiculite and I've never tried to measure the humidity inside the shoe boxes. Humidity inside my incubator is between 80-100% on my inaccurate $10 hardware store hygrometers, for whatever that is worth. I go by feel too, and I loved Carl's fried chicken analogy! I just "know" what too dry feels like and I "know" what too damp feels like, and I adjust accordingly.

I've hatched several hundred sulcata and leopards this way. If my first year moms have given me fertile eggs, I should see some SA leopard hatchlings in the next few weeks. Looking forward to hatching platynota this way next year!!!

Good luck with the experiments Mark. I'll follow your results with great interest.


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## Markw84 (Dec 19, 2016)

Tom said:


> In the past I used Hovbators, filled the bottom canals with water, and plugged all the vent holes in them. With this method I used 2 or 4 1/8 inch vent holes in the sides of my shoe boxes that held the eggs. This method worked well for me, but each Hovabator could only hold 2 shoe boxes of eggs, so I had to run a bunch of them. In recent years I've been using a Brinsea bird brooder chamber. This holds a much more precise temperature. It has a fan that runs continuously and I found that it was drying my media out. Now I've plugged all the vent holes in the shoe boxes and I run a tub of water directly under the fan. This works well and doesn't dry out my media now. I only add a little water to the media once or twice during a 3 month incubation period and again when hatching is imminent.
> 
> I also use the 1 : 1 method with vermiculite and I've never tried to measure the humidity inside the shoe boxes. Humidity inside my incubator is between 80-100% on my inaccurate $10 hardware store hygrometers, for whatever that is worth. I go by feel too, and I loved Carl's fried chicken analogy! I just "know" what too dry feels like and I "know" what too damp feels like, and I adjust accordingly.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply, Tom. This really helps!

Looking forward to seeing pictures of those SA leopard hatchlings!


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## Anyfoot (Dec 20, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> I am currently setting up two new incubators I have made designed to hold temperatures within 0.2 f of the set point. That is done and they are working wonderfully. I have extremely accurate sensors I place in the egg containers that will right next to the eggs that records the exact temperature and humidity within 0.1 f and 0.1% RH. It records those reading every 1 minute and provides a graph of the results I download to excel for an exact readout of conditions over the entire incubation period in one minute intervals.
> 
> With this setup I am now questioning the best thing to do as far as humidity. Most successful breeders seem to favor the water / vermiculite 1:1 mix in a closed container with a few holes in the top of the sides. When I do that with these sensors in a simulated egg container using golf balls for eggs - I get nothing but a constant 100% humidity reading in the containers with the "eggs". There seems to be pretty unanimous consensus that no matter what medium you use - it is kept moist in the closed container holding the eggs. I cannot do that without 100% humidity.
> 
> ...


Mark,I have little incubation experience here and much to learn, but I have noticed what you mention. My incubator reads out around 80℅. My humidity probe that I actually lay on the vermiculite touching an egg always reads 95%+. Bare in mind this is a £10 gauge, nothing fancy. 
Also, my females urinate in the nest before laying to the degree it's sloppy mud, surely that's way off the humidity chart, I would imagine over 4 or 5 months this would dry off a bit(not taking into account rainfall) Perhaps they need higher humitiy levels at the start of incubation and the humidity naturally reduces in the nest with time, or maybe the rainfall keeps it up. 
Just thoughts for you to think about.


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## MichaelaW (Dec 20, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> Apparently the way I chose to post above did not work. let me try again and see if I can correct the formatting....
> 
> 
> TMI ALERT!! If you are interested, I am posting technical thoughts/opinions here, But this is where some of my kids would start rolling their eyes!!
> ...


My brain is exploding.


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## zovick (Dec 20, 2016)

Hi Folks,

I have never had good luck using water in ANY ratio with my vermiculite incubation medium (note that this statement applies only to tortoise eggs, not to turtle eggs). I use totally dry vermiculite and sprinkle my eggs very sparingly with water once or twice per week. I use Hovabators (still air, no fans). I keep a small crock of water in the Hovabator with the containers holding the eggs, but that is more to help the Hovabator maintain a more even temperature than to provide humidity to the eggs, since they are in containers with the tops in place and neither the tops nor the containers have holes anywhere in them. The only time the eggs are exposed to any outside air is when the tops are removed when I take them off to check the eggs a couple of times per week.

This technique has worked for me with Indian Stars, Sri Lankan Stars, Burmese Stars, Radiated Tortoises, and Spider Tortoises of all 4 types.

I have never attempted to measure humidity inside the egg containers or in the incubators, so cannot comment on its role, other than to say I don't personally consider it overly important. I can say that TSD was extremely successful in my Star Tortoises using the above method of incubation and no attempt to provide humidity to the eggs. Did not try TSD with Pyxis as the eggs were too few. I treated their eggs like gold and just tried to hatch them (this was nearly 20 years ago). TSD with Radiated Tortoises was less reliable, but did seem to work much of the time.

Very few of my fertile eggs have failed to hatch since I began using the above technique in the early to mid-1990's. There seem to be a fair number of successful ways to incubate tortoise eggs.

Bill Zovickian


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## zovick (Dec 20, 2016)

Here is an article I wrote for one of the first couple of Pyxis Studbooks (2003 or 2004?) which describes my incubation setup in more detail, plus has some other interesting facts regarding an extended cool down period of eggs and its effect on the eggs of several species and sub-species:


Incubation Strategies for _Pyxis_ Eggs.


*William H. Zovickian*
[email protected]


Incubation techniques for many chelonian species are still evolving, and so it is with those for the Spider (_Pyxis arachnoides_) and the Flat-tailed (_P. planicauda_) tortoises of Madagascar. The author has experimented with varying techniques to break diapause and initiate development of _Pyxis_ eggs for the past several years and has developed successful incubation methods for them. Incubation methods, however, will certainly evolve from those offered below, as these techniques are neither foolproof nor fully perfected. Nevertheless, the following technique has proven to be successful for incubating

_P.arachnoides_ eggs if they are fertile.


Totally dry Vermiculite is used as an incubation substrate. Eggs are half buried in 1”-2” (25-50mm) of Vermiculite in small round (1.7 pint) Rubbermaid containers with the tops loosely positioned over them. Four of these containers fit in a Hovabator incubator (Hovabator Still Air Model #1602N, GQF Mfg. Savannah, GA 31498).


The Rubbermaid containers with eggs are placed into the Hovabator and incubated at 87-89˚ F (30.5 – 31.6˚ C) for 5 weeks. At that time, the entire Tupperware container is removed from the incubator and placed in a cool location where the temperature will remain about 65-72˚ F (18.3 – 22.3˚ C) for 5 weeks. After the 5-week period, the container is returned to the incubator and incubation at 87-89˚ F is resumed. After 5 weeks, the eggs are candled. Those that still appear good, but show no signs of development, are cooled again for 5 weeks, then returned to the incubator. In some cases, eggs have been cooled three times before development occurred.


Some additional points should be noted here: first, after the initial 5-week period in the incubator, the eggs are candled before being cooled. Any eggs that have begun to develop in the first 5 weeks are NOT removed from incubation, but left in the incubator to continue their development. Second, while the eggs are in the incubator, they are lightly sprinkled with water twice weekly. A small water bottle, fitted with an old-fashioned perforated sprinkle top, is kept in each incubator for this purpose. It is half filled, and laid on its side to fit in the incubator. Using isothermal water is best since it does not shock the eggs. A small open container of water is kept in the incubator during incubation to help maintain some humidity (though the exact relative humidity has not been recorded). Finally, if the embryos are dying in the eggs shortly before hatching, incubation temperature may be too high. Check frequently to see that the incubation temperature has not ventured above or below the recommended temperature. It is recommended that the temperature be carefully checked and lowered appropriately. It is suggested that a Raynger Non-contact Thermometer (Raynger ST, Model RAYST2PU, Raytek, Santa Cruz, CA) be kept near the incubators to check the actual temperatures of the eggs twice weekly when they are sprinkled.


Eggs from all three subspecies of _P. arachnoides_ have been hatched using the above technique. The incubation techniques for _P. planicauda_ are decidedly more problematic, as the technique used for _P. arachnoides_ has not proven successful. Recently, however, a revolutionary new technique has been discovered, which has proven successful for this species and which has produced offspring in the shortest incubation times the author has experienced for tortoises.


Because the author was moving from Connecticut to Georgia and concerned that the movement of incubating eggs would be lethal for those embryos, it was decided to withhold incubation temperatures until after relocation. The move was planned for the last few days of July 2002 and the decision was made not to begin incubation of any _Pyxis_ eggs that were laid after December 2001, nor any other tortoise eggs laid after February 2002. Necessity is the mother of invention, as they say.


Eight assorted (different species and races) _Pyxis_ eggs laid during the months of January through March, as well as three clutches of Burmese Star Tortoise (_Geochelone platynota_) eggs laid in May and June, were the subjects of the following experimentation. All of these eggs were kept at 65-72˚ F until the author’s move to Georgia. To transport the eggs, they were kept in their Tupperware containers with wadded paper towels placed over them. These tightly sealed containers were then buried in picnic coolers filled with Aspen shavings. The picnic coolers were placed in the author’s car and driven to Georgia, a trip of about 16 hours.


Upon arrival, the incubators were set up and recalibrated. The various eggs described above were placed in the Hovabators. The eggs were candled 3 weeks later to check for any signs of development. To the author’s great surprise, the eggs were observed to be developing much faster than he previously experienced. The eggs were filled with blood vessels and small embryos that were readily visible, and were at the stage of development normally seen at 60-75 days.


Two _P. planicauda_ hatched at 75 and 82 days after incubation was initiated. The only previous Flat-tailed Tortoise hatched by the author (1978) required 295 days of incubation. That egg was incubated from the time it was laid until it hatched without cooling. The six Spider Tortoise eggs also hatched very quickly, ranging from 80-115 days. The fertile eggs from all three clutches of Burmese Star Tortoise eggs (9) hatched in 76-86 days, compared with a typical incubation time of 90-130 days.


In over thirty years of breeding tortoises of various species, and before the above reported success, the author has had only two eggs hatch in less than 90 days. That number represents perhaps 1% of all tortoises hatched by the author. Twelve of the tortoises in the aforementioned group of eggs, or 70%, hatched in less than 90 days, while the others took far less time than earlier incubation methods. From these experiences it appears that an extended cooling period before initiation of incubation dramatically improves the hatching rate of _Pyxis_ eggs, and parenthetically that for _G.platynota_, and accelerates development time_._ The author invites feedback from those who try the above techniques as well as those who have experienced good hatching success using other methodologies. Working together, we can develop a reliable formula for hatching these enigmatic _Pyxis_ tortoises.


Post Script: Though the author has not attempted this technique, he is aware of others who have successfully incubated _Pyxis_ eggs in open containers that are floated in water in picnic coolers and kept at 84-86˚ F (28.9 – 30.0˚ C).


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## Tom (Dec 20, 2016)

zovick said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I have never had good luck using water in ANY ratio with my vermiculite incubation medium (note that this statement applies only to tortoise eggs, not to turtle eggs). I use totally dry vermiculite and sprinkle my eggs very sparingly with water once or twice per week. I use Hovabators (still air, no fans). I keep a small crock of water in the Hovabator with the containers holding the eggs, but that is more to help the Hovabator maintain a more even temperature than to provide humidity to the eggs, since they are in containers with the tops in place and neither the tops nor the containers have holes anywhere in them. The only time the eggs are exposed to any outside air is when the tops are removed when I take them off to check the eggs a couple of times per week.
> 
> ...




Your post demonstrates that we all have much to learn.

Thank you very much for contributing here!


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## Neal (Dec 20, 2016)

zovick said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I have never had good luck using water in ANY ratio with my vermiculite incubation medium (note that this statement applies only to tortoise eggs, not to turtle eggs). I use totally dry vermiculite and sprinkle my eggs very sparingly with water once or twice per week. I use Hovabators (still air, no fans). I keep a small crock of water in the Hovabator with the containers holding the eggs, but that is more to help the Hovabator maintain a more even temperature than to provide humidity to the eggs, since they are in containers with the tops in place and neither the tops nor the containers have holes anywhere in them. The only time the eggs are exposed to any outside air is when the tops are removed when I take them off to check the eggs a couple of times per week.
> 
> ...



Thank you Bill, this is a very interesting post.

When I first started incubating tortoise eggs I had a lot of help from Egyptiandan here on the forum. He suggested using completely dry medium, and I didn't take his advice until this year. I've always done a 1/.8 ratio of medium/water by weight and it's worked out OK, but I've had a lot of fertile eggs that never hatched. This year I have several egg trays at different ratios and a couple with no water. It's too early to tell if it will make a difference, but your post gives me a lot more optimism.


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## Markw84 (Dec 20, 2016)

zovick said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I have never had good luck using water in ANY ratio with my vermiculite incubation medium (note that this statement applies only to tortoise eggs, not to turtle eggs). I use totally dry vermiculite and sprinkle my eggs very sparingly with water once or twice per week. I use Hovabators (still air, no fans). I keep a small crock of water in the Hovabator with the containers holding the eggs, but that is more to help the Hovabator maintain a more even temperature than to provide humidity to the eggs, since they are in containers with the tops in place and neither the tops nor the containers have holes anywhere in them. The only time the eggs are exposed to any outside air is when the tops are removed when I take them off to check the eggs a couple of times per week.
> 
> ...


Bill

Thank you so much for your contribution. What a valuable resource you are to our community. I will be doing another separate post on diapause and look forward to a dialogue there. Your thoughts on humidity are helpful as although you state you believe it not too important, I believe your methods tend towards the "less than 100% RH" position.


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## Markw84 (Dec 20, 2016)

Neal said:


> Thank you Bill, this is a very interesting post.
> 
> When I first started incubating tortoise eggs I had a lot of help from Egyptiandan here on the forum. He suggested using completely dry medium, and I didn't take his advice until this year. I've always done a 1/.8 ratio of medium/water by weight and it's worked out OK, but I've had a lot of fertile eggs that never hatched. This year I have several egg trays at different ratios and a couple with no water. It's too early to tell if it will make a difference, but your post gives me a lot more optimism.


Thank you!! More food for thought on less humidity. Please keep us posted on your results.


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## G-stars (Dec 20, 2016)

Hey Mark, don't really have as much experience in hatching babies as some of the other members here. Also I never really pay to much attention to the humidity. But I did keep the medium dry and keep a container of water in there to help with the humidity. 

I've been planning on doing an experiment for a while now. The idea is to see what temperatures are achieved in an outdoor and indoor nest site. The lows, the highs, average, and median. It interests me to see just how much the temps fluctuate underground. I may also incorporate humidity as well.


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## Markw84 (Dec 20, 2016)

G-stars said:


> Hey Mark, don't really have as much experience in hatching babies as some of the other members here. Also I never really pay to much attention to the humidity. But I did keep the medium dry and keep a container of water in there to help with the humidity.
> 
> I've been planning on doing an experiment for a while now. The idea is to see what temperatures are achieved in an outdoor and indoor nest site. The lows, the highs, average, and median. It interests me to see just how much the temps fluctuate underground. I may also incorporate humidity as well.


Sounds interesting, Gus. You might be interested - - I use sensors that are quite accurate and they keep a log of readings taken every 60 seconds of the temp and humidity to the nearest 0.1f and 0.1%RH. They will store up to 20 days info if you have not been in range in a while. They auto download data to your mobile phone via Bluetooth when you are in range. That way you have an exact record of the temperature and humidity history, not just what you saw and recorded when you check. If you're interested, I can give you the info.


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## KevinGG (Dec 20, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> Sounds interesting, Gus. You might be interested - - I use sensors that are quite accurate and they keep a log of readings taken every 60 seconds of the temp and humidity to the nearest 0.1f and 0.1%RH. They will store up to 20 days info if you have not been in range in a while. They auto download data to your mobile phone via Bluetooth when you are in range. That way you have an exact record of the temperature and humidity history, not just what you saw and recorded when you check. If you're interested, I can give you the info.



Wow that's a great setup. I'd be interested in buying something that logs data straight to your phone. What are you using?


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## G-stars (Dec 21, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> Sounds interesting, Gus. You might be interested - - I use sensors that are quite accurate and they keep a log of readings taken every 60 seconds of the temp and humidity to the nearest 0.1f and 0.1%RH. They will store up to 20 days info if you have not been in range in a while. They auto download data to your mobile phone via Bluetooth when you are in range. That way you have an exact record of the temperature and humidity history, not just what you saw and recorded when you check. If you're interested, I can give you the info.



Yes I am. I'm sure others would be interested as well.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 21, 2016)

In looking for the paper that indicates "when" that pivot in incubation occurs, I re-found these two. If you have a specific question I'd he happy to try and re-state what the authors have said in more lay terms. 

I really miss 'seminar' classes in school, where about a dozen or so people would recommend a paper on a topic, everyone would read those paper(s), and in a discussion we would try to figure what the hell the author was getting at. Unless you are an author in the field (a very narrow part of the field even) it takes a few reads and talking it out to determine what is being communicated.

So if you want to try it out here and the OP does not mind...


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 21, 2016)

This one has experimental DESIGN in the title, maybe it will be more helpful, I did not read it yet.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 21, 2016)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jez.1402180315/abstract

I couldn't find a place to get the whole pdf, so abstract it is.


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## Markw84 (Dec 21, 2016)

Will said:


> In looking for the paper that indicates "when" that pivot in incubation occurs, I re-found these two. If you have a specific question I'd he happy to try and re-state what the authors have said in more lay terms.
> 
> I really miss 'seminar' classes in school, where about a dozen or so people would recommend a paper on a topic, everyone would read those paper(s), and in a discussion we would try to figure what the hell the author was getting at. Unless you are an author in the field (a very narrow part of the field even) it takes a few reads and talking it out to determine what is being communicated.
> 
> So if you want to try it out here and the OP does not mind...


@Will To whom are you addressing this? I am the OP, so I am confused?? I'm not sure what you are referring to with the "when" of the pivot. The Pivot point refers to the exact temperature at which you would expect the exact 50/50 male to female ratio produced. The "when" in incubation is the "temperature sensitive period", and actually better defined for me in later papers and is a window of time period not a point.

I appreciate you input greatly, and actually am familiar with all these papers you have referenced. Unfortunately they are very old studies, (17 years, 26 years, 36 years, etc) and tend to focus on results from Red-Ears or Snappers, as far as establishing a pivotal temperature, as it is know quite well for these species. Lots of good info though, but nothing touching on humidity. I plan on doing more separate threads on a few of the issues these papers address, as I find it quite interesting. I hope you will participate. My main interests now are in getting the incubator set up as much as possible to eliminate as many variables as possible. My main focus will be that pivot point for platynota. What effects breaking diapause has on that and possible effects that may have on the temperature sensitive period. As well as the question, can we better manage scute deformity manipulating temperatures lower at Stage 12 - 17 and then raising Temperatures at Stage 17 to the higher "female" levels?

Do you have thoughts about the humidity best for egg development? My experiments with techniques commonly suggested produce 100% RH at the egg. I would conjecture that RH inside the egg chamber with damp soil and the wet mud plug that seals the chamber would probably also be about 100%. Yet we are all concerned about suffocating the embryo. Will you share your thoughts???


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## Markw84 (Dec 21, 2016)

Will said:


> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jez.1402180315/abstract
> 
> I couldn't find a place to get the whole pdf, so abstract it is.


You need a subscription or membership of some type to get this full paper as well as a couple others that look intriguing to me. Do you possible have access?


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## Anyfoot (Dec 21, 2016)

Does higher himidity levels reduce oxygen levels. I assumed it did. If that's the case when an embryo develops to the stage of an actual heart beat you would think the himidity level needs to be lower.
Can someone explain what chalking is, I don't mean it's when the egg shell goes the color of chalk. What is actually happening, because I'm of the opinion it's making the eggshell more porous, allowing more oxygen to pass through and Probably extracting calcium too.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 21, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> You need a subscription or membership of some type to get this full paper as well as a couple others that look intriguing to me. Do you possible have access?


I no longer have any subscriptions, but have found many ways around just buying the paper, give me a title and I'll full around with it.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 21, 2016)

Page 162 has some discussion on 'when' sex is determined. The "I wonder" problem I see with this is that higher temps also influence a shorter incubation period than lower temps, so 'when' that critical time is also seems like it will shift with temps. I've never had the moment needed with the right person to tease this out.

I stopped buying book at some point as the pounds of pulp got to much to manage. There is a book that reviews and compiles a good lot of these papers. Kuckling's book of the reproductive biology of the chelonia may have something, and I do have that book. I'll look if I don't forget. It seems like I have forgotten to look stuff up before when I said I would. Call me on if I forget.


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## Markw84 (Dec 21, 2016)

Will said:


> Page 162 has some discussion on 'when' sex is determined. The "I wonder" problem I see with this is that higher temps also influence a shorter incubation period than lower temps, so 'when' that critical time is also seems like it will shift with temps. I've never had the moment needed with the right person to tease this out.
> 
> I stopped buying book at some point as the pounds of pulp got to much to manage. There is a book that reviews and compiles a good lot of these papers. Kuckling's book of the reproductive biology of the chelonia may have something, and I do have that book. I'll look if I don't forget. It seems like I have forgotten to look stuff up before when I said I would. Call me on if I forget.


@Will if you can find those publications = that would be much appreciated.

Still would like to hear your take on humidity. Some readings speculate that humidity may also affect hatch time. I personally have noticed in looking back some of the clutches I've had that tended to dry out a little more, did hatch sooner.

Do you believe 100% RH is the way to go? Most any closed container even with holes towards the top edges, and a moist substrate will produce 100%. It also seems reasonable the egg chamber of a wild tortoise, in moist earth and with a mud plug seal, will also produce 100%. Yet my inclination is still more towards 80-90%. Please comment...


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## Markw84 (Dec 21, 2016)

Will said:


> Page 162 has some discussion on 'when' sex is determined. The "I wonder" problem I see with this is that higher temps also influence a shorter incubation period than lower temps, so 'when' that critical time is also seems like it will shift with temps. I've never had the moment needed with the right person to tease this out..



The "when" is a period of time. And that, in "days", will vary depending upon incubation times. That's why I feel it better to state Stage 16 to Stage 22. That is the bracket of time in which to work. I believe the effects also are cumulative. So many degree-hours above a certain Temperature in that period are required for the proper hormonal environment to achieve the proper estrogen levels. So to me, and my experiments, I see the "when" not as a point in time, but a bracket of time in which I have to apply enough "degree hours" to effect the female outcome.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 21, 2016)

This is what is in Kuchling's book. This is a spectacular synopsis. I wish he could have been the author of a few more books.


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## Markw84 (Dec 21, 2016)

Will said:


> This is what is in Kuchling's book. This is a spectacular synopsis. I wish he could have been the author of a few more books.


@Will Love it, and I am ordering the book. Pricey but looks a good addition to my library.

BUT WE DIGRESS!!

What is your take on HUMIDITY????????????????


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 22, 2016)

So I don't think water vapor will interfere with gas exchange as water vapor are small molecules only ever so slightly bigger than gas molecules. But at the scale of molecules different rules of exchange and barrier crossing occur. If there is dew or droplets of water on the egg shell I think it will reduce gas exchange. I think that can be overcome in a couple of ways, 1) have high air turn over in the incubator, now that does not mean forceful blasting, but even a simple facilitated (passive exchange) by drafting (heated at the bottom with small air holes and slightly larger air hole at the top of the incubator. Or 2) an air stone.

What troubles me about these ideas is that one incubator I made had no active air exchange and very little passive and most eggs did well. That incubator was an ice chest with several inches of water heated with an aquarium heater. The eggs were placed in moist vermiculite on a shelf above the water. They were not covered in the box that had the vermiculite. I did not monitor RH, just air temp. The water was a big enough heat sink that a daily or every other day look see did not kill the thermal momentum and the incubator would re-achieve the desired air temp very quickly after the lid being opened let all the warm moist air out.

What I think is that seeing a difference between 80 and 98 % RH might be difficult. With two incubators the empirical result will be easy to notice, that it would stand up to a statistical analysis (and demonstrate a "significant" difference) is another thing.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 22, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> The "when" is a period of time. And that, in "days", will vary depending upon incubation times. That's why I feel it better to state Stage 16 to Stage 22. That is the bracket of time in which to work. I believe the effects also are cumulative. So many degree-hours above a certain Temperature in that period are required for the proper hormonal environment to achieve the proper estrogen levels. So to me, and my experiments, I see the "when" not as a point in time, but a bracket of time in which I have to apply enough "degree hours" to effect the female outcome.



Scientists who study this agree and some use "cumulative heat units", Yetems(sp) stages might be a better gauge, but how do you know without sacrificing and egg?

Entomologists and vineyards managers (among others) use "degree days" to predict insect outbreaks and ripeness of fruit. But again, this does not replace actual observation of the field. So maybe cracking a few eggs along the way would be required.


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## Markw84 (Dec 22, 2016)

Will said:


> So I don't think water vapor will interfere with gas exchange as water vapor are small molecules only ever so slightly bigger than gas molecules. But at the scale of molecules different rules of exchange and barrier crossing occur. If there is dew or droplets of water on the egg shell I think it will reduce gas exchange. I think that can be overcome in a couple of ways, 1) have high air turn over in the incubator, now that does not mean forceful blasting, but even a simple facilitated (passive exchange) by drafting (heated at the bottom with small air holes and slightly larger air hole at the top of the incubator. Or 2) an air stone.
> 
> What troubles me about these ideas is that one incubator I made had no active air exchange and very little passive and most eggs did well. That incubator was an ice chest with several inches of water heated with an aquarium heater. The eggs were placed in moist vermiculite on a shelf above the water. They were not covered in the box that had the vermiculite. I did not monitor RH, just air temp. The water was a big enough heat sink that a daily or every other day look see did not kill the thermal momentum and the incubator would re-achieve the desired air temp very quickly after the lid being opened let all the warm moist air out.
> 
> What I think is that seeing a difference between 80 and 98 % RH might be difficult. With two incubators the empirical result will be easy to notice, that it would stand up to a statistical analysis (and demonstrate a "significant" difference) is another thing.


At this point I do NOT want to play with humidity to test effects of different levels. I want to pick a RH level, that consensus believes to be optimum, and monitor it only to MAINTAIN it so is does not vary - or at least it is the same for all eggs of the different temperature groups.

I am currently testing two incubators I constructed from wine coolers as you can see at the top of this post. I have one of the smallest muffin fans blowing across the CHE heat element and across two 4" sq water containers. I use a Helix proportional controller with the probe mounted just an inch or so from the CHE to give a tremendously stable temperature. This gives me 81%RH in the incubator. By using open topped containers for the eggs, I can have the humidity at the egg around 95% if just a tiny bit of moisture is added to the substrate. I am now leaning towards that being the way to go.

SO... will a 85% RH, stable in the incubator with a small muffin fan running constantly to maintain a more stable temperature and humidity level, dry out the eggs?


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## Anyfoot (Dec 22, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> At this point I do NOT want to play with humidity to test effects of different levels. I want to pick a RH level, that consensus believes to be optimum, and monitor it only to MAINTAIN it so is does not vary - or at least it is the same for all eggs of the different temperature groups.
> 
> I am currently testing two incubators I constructed from wine coolers as you can see at the top of this post. I have one of the smallest muffin fans blowing across the CHE heat element and across two 4" sq water containers. I use a Helix proportional controller with the probe mounted just an inch or so from the CHE to give a tremendously stable temperature. This gives me 81%RH in the incubator. By using open topped containers for the eggs, I can have the humidity at the egg around 95% if just a tiny bit of moisture is added to the substrate. I am now leaning towards that being the way to go.
> 
> SO... will a 85% RH, stable in the incubator with a small muffin fan running constantly to maintain a more stable temperature and humidity level, dry out the eggs?


Mark. How many different settings could you have? Could you hold 3 different levels of himidity in each incubator. 
So for example
100%, 80% and 60% at 90f
100%, 80% and 60% at 80f.


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## Markw84 (Dec 22, 2016)

Will said:


> Scientists who study this agree and some use "cumulative heat units", Yetems(sp) stages might be a better gauge, but how do you know without sacrificing and egg?
> 
> Entomologists and vineyards managers (among others) use "degree days" to predict insect outbreaks and ripeness of fruit. But again, this does not replace actual observation of the field. So maybe cracking a few eggs along the way would be required.


@Will One of my very best friends is a large peach farmer. Perhaps that is where I got comfortable talking about temperature hours as we discuss that frequently in assessing the "quality" of the winter.

I am not interested in looking to definitively establish the temperature sensitive period. I simply want to use that "window" as a way to liberally manage temperature manipulation to mitigate possible scute abnormality with the higher temperatures that should produce more reliable female results. Since we are talking temperature hours, and the theory that it is indeed cumulative, if I can bump the temperatures in the middle of the "estimated" sex sensitive period, I can perhaps use a bit higher temperature than one would use at a constant level throughout the incubation process. I can pretty well estimate the sex setting period based upon know staging for the chelonians extensively tested. It does not need to be exact for my purposes. For example, Red-Ears with a 53 day incubation to pipping, reach stage 17 at day 18. If I extrapolate to a 90 day incubation for my tortoises, that would correspond to day 31. Close enough for my testing.

Most seem to currently Temperature sex with, for example, a constant temperature of 89f for females. Since I have very accurate temperature monitoring and constant 60 second interval readings, I can test that method. And I can test a constant 88f and 90f. But will I start to see scute deformity? However, what happens if we incubate at 87f for the first 31 days, then bump to 90f or even 91f until day 60, then back to 87f until pipping? My hypothesis is that we will see much more consistant all female outcome, and much less potential for scute deformity as scute delineation would be complete by that stage of development.

Thoughts??? Anyone??


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## Markw84 (Dec 22, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> Mark. How many different settings could you have? Could you hold 3 different levels of himidity in each incubator.
> So for example
> 100%, 80% and 60% at 90f
> 100%, 80% and 60% at 80f.


 I don't want to test that now. I want to test temperature at different timings as stated above in the post I was making as you posted this. I want to take humidity as a variable out of the equation.


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## Anyfoot (Dec 22, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> I don't want to test that now. I want to test temperature at different timings as stated above in the post I was making as you posted this. I want to take humidity as a variable out of the equation.


I understand, my thought process was this, and the more info you get before you proceed the better. 
If in the wild there are 2 nests, one at 80f and one at 90f. I would have thought after a period of time the 90f temperature nest was lower in humidity as it dries out faster, If we as keepers when incubating at higher temps to force female dominance also inadvertently have a high humidity (90/100% at the egg), does it cause scute deformity.


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## Markw84 (Dec 22, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> I understand, my thought process was this, and the more info you get before you proceed the better.
> If in the wild there are 2 nests, one at 80f and one at 90f. I would have thought after a period of time the 90f temperature nest was lower in humidity as it dries out faster, If we as keepers when incubating at higher temps to force female dominance also inadvertently have a high humidity (90/100% at the egg), does it cause scute deformity.


That is a different experiment, but interesting. However, I don't think in the closed environment of a natural nest chamber, the humidity would go down. I would conjecture that if a nests dries out, the eggs die. If the earth remains moist - you will have pretty much 100%RH whatever the temperature with that small of a closed chamber. I sure wish we could find results with a sensor placed in real nests. No one seems to record, or track humidity at all that I've seen.


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## Anyfoot (Dec 22, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> No one seems to record, or track humidity at all that I've seen.


Maybe that is what we are missing.


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## Markw84 (Dec 30, 2016)

KevinGG said:


> Wow that's a great setup. I'd be interested in buying something that logs data straight to your phone. What are you using?



I have been reminded to reply to this question. Sorry I have seemed to have forgotten about it, so thanks for the reminder....

I have started using the SensorPush. It is a small square sensor I can place anywhere and it records and logs both temperature and humidity. It downloads automatically to my iPhone any time I am within Bluetooth range. If I am not in range for an extended period of time, it will store data for up to 20 days. The data can be saved as a CSV file for import into excel for conversion to a graph. This way I can create a graph of the exact temperature and humidity over the course of an entire incubation period, for example. I will know exactly the temperature hours any egg was subjected to and at what timing. The sensor is about 1 1/2 inch square and 1/2 inch thick. Easily fitting inside an egg container right along with the eggs.

I also have them in my closed chambers and can see the temperature swings and humidity swings that naturally occur throughout the day. Just this morning we had a rare power outage here due to construction nearby. I like being able to look back and see what that did to the enclosures over the period of that outage in the wee hours of the morning when I was unaware.

I have 8 of them currently, All 8 are synced to the app on the iPhone, so no problem with the mixing of too many signals of the same frequency you get if you use too many of the wireless, less expensive digital thermometers. As far as I know, there is no limit to the number of sensors you can sync to one app.

I also check accuracy best I could with salt tests and freezing water tests. I then placed all 8 sensors side by side for the day. All 8 read within 0.1 degrees F of each other. All 8 read within 0.2% RH of each other. There is also a setting feature in the app where you can adjust the temp and humidity reading up or down to calibrate if necessary, but I have found it unnecessary so far.

They are a bit pricy, at $50 ea. but not bad for the accuracy and logging feature I was after. I feel well worth it.


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## Sterant (Dec 30, 2016)

I also use the SensorPush products. Work great!


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## Markw84 (Dec 30, 2016)

Dan Sterantino said:


> I also use the SensorPush products. Work great!


Dan

Any other thoughts about this thread and humidity in the egg container / incubator???


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## Sterant (Dec 30, 2016)

I use still-air Hovabators and have for 20 years. Talking specifically about Leopard and Star tortoises (I have never incubated turtle eggs). I have never added any water to the vermiculite. I put the eggs in individual tupperware containers with loose fitting tops (I don't snap them shut) in totally dry vermiculite. Inside the incubator but outside of the tupperware containers, I put a couple small trays full of water with a sponge sitting in them. I have always had success doing it this way so never played around too much. I generally add water to the trays weekly. I don't have anything in the incubator right now but the next time I do, I will put a SensorPush in the container with the eggs and see what reading I get. Between adding water to the trays, inspecting the eggs and checking temps with the temp gun, I generally have the incubator open twice a week for less than a minute.


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## Markw84 (Dec 30, 2016)

Dan Sterantino said:


> I use still-air Hovabators and have for 20 years. Talking specifically about Leopard and Star tortoises (I have never incubated turtle eggs). I have never added any water to the vermiculite. I put the eggs in individual tupperware containers with loose fitting tops (I don't snap them shut) in totally dry vermiculite. Inside the incubator but outside of the tupperware containers, I put a couple small trays full of water with a sponge sitting in them. I have always had success doing it this way so never played around too much. I generally add water to the trays weekly. I don't have anything in the incubator right now but the next time I do, I will put a SensorPush in the container with the eggs and see what reading I get. Between adding water to the trays, inspecting the eggs and checking temps with the temp gun, I generally have the incubator open twice a week for less than a minute.


Thanks you so much, Dan. I am hearing more and more people are tending to go totally dry substrate with diapause species. When I set up my incubator this way, with the water trays, the humidity stays in the low 80's. I do have larger incubators with 5 - 6 shelves for eggs, so also use a very small muffin fan on continuously. That is blowing across the heat element and over the water tray. That does help keep the humidity stable and up at 80+
@Dan Sterantino do you have any star tortoise eggs yet this year? Isn't this their time to lay?


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## Sterant (Dec 30, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> Thanks you so much, Dan. I am hearing more and more people are tending to go totally dry substrate with diapause species. When I set up my incubator this way, with the water trays, the humidity stays in the low 80's. I do have larger incubators with 5 - 6 shelves for eggs, so also use a very small muffin fan on continuously. That is blowing across the heat element and over the water tray. That does help keep the humidity stable and up at 80+
> @Dan Sterantino do you have any star tortoise eggs yet this year? Isn't this their time to lay?



Nope. Sold off all of my stars and leopards a number of years ago. 100% focused on radiated tortoises now.


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## KevinGG (Jan 1, 2017)

Markw84 said:


> I have been reminded to reply to this question. Sorry I have seemed to have forgotten about it, so thanks for the reminder....
> 
> I have started using the SensorPush. It is a small square sensor I can place anywhere and it records and logs both temperature and humidity. It downloads automatically to my iPhone any time I am within Bluetooth range. If I am not in range for an extended period of time, it will store data for up to 20 days. The data can be saved as a CSV file for import into excel for conversion to a graph. This way I can create a graph of the exact temperature and humidity over the course of an entire incubation period, for example. I will know exactly the temperature hours any egg was subjected to and at what timing. The sensor is about 1 1/2 inch square and 1/2 inch thick. Easily fitting inside an egg container right along with the eggs.
> 
> ...



Just bought 4. Thanks for the recommendation.


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## mark1 (Jan 1, 2017)

*
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8zsxOWWa8ZgJ:https://www.clarkson.edu/honors/research/summer_papers/Davis-Andrew%20Abstract.doc+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ushttps://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8zsxOWWa8ZgJ:https://www.clarkson.edu/honors/research/summer_papers/Davis-Andrew%20Abstract.doc+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


"The humidity of the nest is another environmental influence that can alter the physical traits of the hatchlings. The shell of a turtle egg is semi-permeable and therefore allows water to move through it. When the egg is in a more humid environment, it absorbs a large amount of water from the surrounding soil. However, in a drier nest, the egg will not absorb as much water and may even lose some of its mass. This means the eggs in the moist nests will be have more mass and will yield larger hatchlings (Packard et al. 1991), which have a higher probability of living to sexual maturity (Cagle et al. 1993). The eggs from a more humid nest also have a longer incubation time then the eggs from a drier nest (Packard et al. 1991). The humidity of the nest does not, however, have any influence on the gender distribution of the hatchlings (Packard et al. 1991)."*


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## mark1 (Jan 2, 2017)

Mark , you most likely have the book "turtles of the united states and Canada" ? this Packard guys research is written about under painted turtle in the reproduction section ...... along with a guy name Paukstis , he's done stuff similar to what you are looking to do ..... I think this Davis guy I quoted maybe assuming on his own that humidity has no influence on sex determination , as it is known to influences size of hatchlings and duration of incubation , both of which have been theorized to have an influence on sex determination ........


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## Markw84 (Jan 2, 2017)

Thanks for the link and comments, Mark. All the studies cited are, however for turtle, not tortoise eggs, and turtle eggs are quite different than tortoise eggs. The eggs of turtles are highly permeable, and I treat them differently than tortoise eggs. And, in particular, Platynota being a diapause species, brings a whole new set of circumstances no study I have found addresses at all on this. And many of the breeders that seem to have become most successful talk about totally dry substrate for breaking diapause periods, while others don't mention it at all. Also, I have interesting noted personally that tortoise eggs that tended towards a bit drier incubation (still 75%+ instead of 95%+) were actually a bit more robust hatchlings - for me at least, and no difference in incubation times. Most all of my sulcate eggs, for example, start hatching at day 86. So I am really becoming more of the opinion that tortoise eggs act much more differently than turtle eggs. Especially in respect to humidity.

The study you linked also is simply a proposal, with no results yet. I do appreciate the other studies that paper cites, though and understand that is the value I believe you were passing on to us. I am familiar with most of those as I have and do work quite a bit with turtle eggs. I find this proposed study a bit quizzical, though. Most of their hypothesize are centered around the questions of effects of pavement and fencing affecting nests, while nest site choice/placement for the female would normally negate most of the very things they are proposing to test.


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## mark1 (Jan 2, 2017)

all those studies are infact for turtles , mostly painted turtles and snapping turtles , I do remember reading one for blanding's turtles , done right here in ohio , about the effects of the corn and soybeans growth on nest temps , and nest success or failure . i'm sure many of their conclusions are specie specific ............ I believe the Davis guy is basing his paper on the fact that the grade , clearing , gravel and dirt of roadsides attracts nesting turtles ........ roads do create a micro-climate around them , and i'm sure those micro-climates effect the outcome of nest .....as far as fencing , i'd guess the clearing needed for the fencing would create the same attraction roads do , power line clearings , or tilled soybean and corn field clearings .........


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## KevinGG (Mar 15, 2018)

Did you ever get around to doing this, Mark?


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## Kapidolo Farms (Apr 5, 2018)

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1670/149-03N Pancake tortoise
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9e98/1b53d923bdb792b09bef3a57afc8e8112c67.pdf Gopher Tortoise
https://mdsoar.org/bitstream/handle/11603/4099/Zimmerman etal1994.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y Desert tortoises

http://www.jstor.org/stable/3892200?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents Temp and water potential, a more reliable way to quantify the role of water. Sorry guys there are no tortoises in Australia and that's where most of the really cool studies take place.


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