# Eyes closed a lot on hatchling and he won't eat



## tiffew (Mar 13, 2017)

we got our hatchling to eat for a few days in a row and now he's back to not eating again. Also he will have one eye closed or both quite a lot, even after we put him in front of food. I've been doing the zoo med eye drops for a few days but see no improvement. His home is the right temp with all the right amenities. Please help! Thanks.


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## wellington (Mar 13, 2017)

Please tell us those temps and what the humidity is. Your right temps may not be what we consider right temps. Also tell us what you are using for heat, the kind of bulbs and what you are using to read those temps. What kind of substrate and how often do you give warm water soaks.


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## tiffew (Mar 13, 2017)

It's 85 on the hot side, 77 on the cool side. He is in soggy terrarium moss. We have a 10 watt zoo med uvb bulb during the day and a heat lamp that's red at night. Sandy Barnett told me to stop soaking him
Since she told us to make the terrarium moss soggy.


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## cmacusa3 (Mar 13, 2017)

I can't remember is the enclosure open top or closed?


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## cmacusa3 (Mar 13, 2017)

tiffew said:


> It's 85 on the hot side, 77 on the cool side. He is in soggy terrarium moss. We have a 10 watt zoo med uvb bulb during the day and a heat lamp that's red at night. Sandy Barnett told me to stop soaking him
> Since she told us to make the terrarium moss soggy.


 My concern would be the temps, that soggy moss will be hard to keep warm enough with a red light at night. If it's open top the only place you will get 85 will be directly under the light and the rest will stay room temp if not colder because of the soggy moss. He won't eat if he's not warm enough and now it sounds like he might be getting sick. I keep my enclosures slightly damp, but they are closed chamber and are kept warm at all times.


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## tiffew (Mar 13, 2017)

I can cover part of it. He is sleeping on the cooler side at night it seems. I can lower the heat lamp to keep him warmer. What else should I do? I'm worried.


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## cmacusa3 (Mar 13, 2017)

tiffew said:


> I can cover part of it. He is sleeping on the cooler side at night it seems. I can lower the heat lamp to keep him warmer. What else should I do? I'm worried.


I would cover as much as you can and raise the temps. I'm betting anywhere but under the lamps it's not more than room temp. Room temp at my house is usually around 70 and with that cold moss it's probably a little cooler.


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## cmacusa3 (Mar 13, 2017)

What are you measuring temps with?


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## Tom (Mar 13, 2017)

tiffew said:


> It's 85 on the hot side, 77 on the cool side. He is in soggy terrarium moss. We have a 10 watt zoo med uvb bulb during the day and a heat lamp that's red at night. Sandy Barnett told me to stop soaking him
> Since she told us to make the terrarium moss soggy.



I went back and looked it up. We are talking about a box turtle, right?

I can't comment on temps or substrate, but I see two major problems:
1. The 10 watt coil type UV bulb is likely burning his eyes. Shut it off ASAP. Use real sunshine, or a long tube for UV. When their eyes hurt, they don't eat.
2. No one should use red bulbs for heat. It makes everything red, it messes with their circadian rhythms, and it kills their appetite sometimes. They should have "white" sunlight simulating light during the day and darkness at night. Use a CHE set on a thermostat to maintain the ambient temp that you want day and night.


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## tiffew (Mar 14, 2017)

I don't have a coil bulb. 

I am using a reptile thermometer that stays in the habitat and I use a laser heat gun to check all the time. 

Yes, Eastern Box turtle.


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## Tom (Mar 14, 2017)

tiffew said:


> I don't have a coil bulb.
> 
> I am using a reptile thermometer that stays in the habitat and I use a laser heat gun to check all the time.
> 
> Yes, Eastern Box turtle.



What is the length of your 10 watt UV bulb? Does it screw into a fixture like an incandescent light bulb?

What are you using for daytime heat?


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## Markw84 (Mar 14, 2017)

tiffew said:


> I don't have a coil bulb.
> 
> I am using a reptile thermometer that stays in the habitat and I use a laser heat gun to check all the time.
> 
> Yes, Eastern Box turtle.


Normally if it is just one eye, it is an injury or irritation. A scrape from something in the tank corner, the substrate or decoration, etc. That should heal with eye drops and removing any possible causes.

If both eyes are closed or swollen, the most common causes are water quality issues, or vitamin A deficiency. Chlorine in the bath water can irate the eyes of turtles and result in eyes kept closed. You might check the chlorine level in the water you use. If not fresh and clean, contaminated water can also cause this. So look at the quality of the water you are using for your turtle to soak in. Check the diet and see that enough vitamin A rich foods are offered and eaten. With tortoises, this is less an issue as so many of the leafy vegetables are so high in vitamin A, but with a box or aquatic turtle, it is easy to get them hooked on more animal / insect foods that don't have enough vitamin A


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## tiffew (Mar 14, 2017)

It is a zoo med non coil
UVB light in a ceramic housing. We have filtered well water. He isn't eating anything no matter what we try. It's both eyes on and off that are closing a lot.


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## tiffew (Mar 14, 2017)

I just soaked him for 30 min in warm water with some Critical Care Carnivore mixed in and a few drops of Zoo Med Eye drops and he ate three Omega One juvenile pellets. I learned the eye drops are pointless since they can't absorb Vitamin A through their eyes. Hopefully he got some in the water and in the three pellets he ate. I have Tobramyacin eye drops and will try those next time. Is eating three pellets good enough for a turtle missing Vitamin A?


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## Markw84 (Mar 14, 2017)

tiffew said:


> I just soaked him for 30 min in warm water with some Critical Care Carnivore mixed in and a few drops of Zoo Med Eye drops and he ate three Omega One juvenile pellets. I learned the eye drops are pointless since they can't absorb Vitamin A through their eyes. Hopefully he got some in the water and in the three pellets he ate. I have Tobramyacin eye drops and will try those next time. Is eating three pellets good enough for a turtle missing Vitamin A?


The eye drops are still a good idea to keep infection down. The pellets should give enough vitamin A, but if that deficiency is the problem it will take a little while to see the results. Keep him eating those pellets! See if he will also nibble on some dandelion greens - one of the best vit A sources next would be kale. Both really high in vit A


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## tiffew (Mar 14, 2017)

We offer Kale and red lettuce daily. He walks away from them as he does the worms! Even before the eye issues began he had no interest in lettuce. I'm going to do the Tobramyacin for a week. How many pellets is good enough each day if he continues to have no interest in the worms (presumably because of his eyes making him uncomfortable)? Thanks!


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## Markw84 (Mar 14, 2017)

tiffew said:


> We offer Kale and red lettuce daily. He walks away from them as he does the worms! Even before the eye issues began he had no interest in lettuce. I'm going to do the Tobramyacin for a week. How many pellets is good enough each day if he continues to have no interest in the worms (presumably because of his eyes making him uncomfortable)? Thanks!


The pellets are good on their own for the vitamin A. Let him eat as much as he wants. It also has a 2:1 calcium : phosphorus and vit D3. All good. If he like the pellets, that all around better for him than the greens.


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## tiffew (Mar 14, 2017)

Should I soak him again today to try to eat more pellets or just leave him for the remainder of the day? I hear handling the least amount is desirable, but I know he needs to eat and drink. Also, what should his weight be at 7 months? He is 26.5 grams.


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## GBtortoises (Mar 19, 2017)

As far as the diet - Eastern Box turtles, when babies, are nearly 100% carnivorous, they aren't going to show any interest in green leafy food and rarely do as adults. Generally baby Box turtles are hunters, they react to moving prey such as earthworms, crickets, slugs, snails and small insects. They don't usually show much interest in food sitting still and don't eat processed pellet foods. As they reach adulthood they will begin to consume more vegetable and fruit matter but still be very much "meat eaters" too. Baby Box turtles in general are more demanding in terms of care requirements than are baby tortoises.

Humidity - Ambient air humidity, soil moisture and drinking/bathing water are very important to their well being and activity levels. But they should also not be kept in constantly damp conditions without adequate air exchange. They need the opportunity to be able to get completely dry periodically. This can be a bit challenging to provide but can be done. Rather than a coil UVB lamp a better choice might be a tube type UV that saturates the entire enclosure with light and UV with a separate incandescent basking lamp in one corner with a flat rock below it that remains completely dry. You can still cover part of the enclosure that is not around the basking area. The eye issue could be from dryness or it could be due to a deficiency in vitamin A. If the tortoise is a hatchling or very young baby it's less likely that it has developed a vitamin A deficiency already. That generally takes place over a longer period of time, not instantly. But I would not rule it out either.

Baby Box turtles in general are more demanding in terms of care requirements than are baby tortoises.


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## tiffew (Mar 19, 2017)

Thank you 
We do not use a coil light and he does have an area to go bask, but chooses not to. 
He is eating Omega One pellets while soaking every day. He still is refusing worms for some reason, though there was a period about two weeks ago when he would happily eat a red wiggler. 
Unfortunately I don't think when we first got him in mid February his habitat was anywhere near humid enough for him. It definitely is now though. 
Hopefully he will resume interest in worms very soon!!


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## Tom (Mar 19, 2017)

tiffew said:


> It is a zoo med non coil
> UVB light in a ceramic housing.



Can we see a pic of your bulb? If it screws into a ceramic housing and it is a ZooMed bulb, then it is a cfl (compact florescent lamp), aka: coil type bulb. The fold over "U" shaped types that ZooMed makes are also considered coil types, and this could be the source, or part of your issue. Those bulbs hurt their eyes, and it can make them not want to eat.

Swap it out for a tube type bulb instead and see if things change.


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## tiffew (Mar 19, 2017)

Yes it screws into a ceramic housing, but is not coil-shaped. I have the turtle in a small Rubbermaid container. How could I do a long tube light over such an enclosure?


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## tiffew (Mar 19, 2017)

Can you recommend a specific tube type bulb? There is so much conflicting info online I have no idea what to buy.


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## JoesMum (Mar 19, 2017)

tiffew said:


> Can you recommend a specific tube type bulb? There is so much conflicting info online I have no idea what to buy.


@tiffew switch your UVB off and leave it switched off for a few days. If your tort's eyes improve then you know it is the bulb. Your tort will be fine without UVB for a week or so. 

The import word is compact here. They are not all coiled. It is the type that look like low energy light bulbs that cause problems.


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## tiffew (Mar 19, 2017)

His eyes are improving, but I don't know if that's from the tobramycon drops or from the vitamins in his pellets. So my zoo med uvb bulb that looks like a regular light bulb is not a good bulb? I'm so confused about this. Thank you for helping.


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## Tom (Mar 19, 2017)

tiffew said:


> His eyes are improving, but I don't know if that's from the tobramycon drops or from the vitamins in his pellets. So my zoo med uvb bulb that looks like a regular light bulb is not a good bulb? I'm so confused about this. Thank you for helping.



Show us a pic of the bulb, so we know what we are talking about.

If you can't take a pic, find your bulb on an internet search and copy/paste a link.

I asked before, but I can't find the thread where I asked, did you get rid of the red bulb, and replace with a white bulb for day time and a CHE on a thermostat for night heat and ambient temperature maintenance?


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## JoesMum (Mar 19, 2017)

Photos of your bulbs would really help us here. 

If your UVB bulb is also the basking bulb then it is a Mercury Vapor Bulb (MVB) and it is fine. 

If you have a separate basking bulb then turn the UVB lamp off now and leave it off for a few days. You have a compact bulb that could be causing the eye problems


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## tiffew (Mar 19, 2017)

Here is our daytime bulb: http://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcos...self-ballasted-mercury-vapor-uvb-lamp-1128450

For nighttime we switched out the red light for the heat emitting light with no color.

Is our daytime bulb ok or not?

Thank you


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## JoesMum (Mar 19, 2017)

tiffew said:


> Here is our daytime bulb: http://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcos...self-ballasted-mercury-vapor-uvb-lamp-1128450
> 
> For nighttime we switched out the red light for the heat emitting light with no color.
> 
> ...


The daytime bulb is MVB and is just fine 

This type of bulb gives out basking heat as well as UVB. 

Be aware that the UVB output of this bulb fails long before the bulb blows and you just can't tell. You will need to replace this bulb at least once a year.


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## tiffew (Mar 19, 2017)

Thank you. Great. Also, I forgot to answer earlier, we have a probe in the substrate that regulates the heating pad under the warm side of the habitat. I have that set to 83 degrees. I have a reptile thermometer on that end and use a laser gun to check heat on all sides regularly.


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## tiffew (Mar 23, 2017)

His eyes seem 100% now so we are relieved, but he weighs less than when we got him 6 weeks ago. He eats Omega One pellets every few days and is dropping weight. Yesterday all night and most of today he slept buried in his moss in a position that looked like he was digging--his head was pointed down toward the floor of his home and tail up toward the sky. Seems an uncomfortable thing to have all the blood rush to your head for a day. Really wish he would gain some weight so I could stop worrying!!!!


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## Cymmie (Mar 24, 2017)

I don't know why people are saying vitamin a can only be gained by veggies. Vitamin is actually not in veggies but a precuser to vitamin a is which is caretinoids. However most insects carry very little vitamin a. Animal and fish meat carry preformed vitamin a. If you are giving insects and are worried about a vitamin deficiency of any sort you need to not only gutload the insects well but also dust them with something that has a preformed vitamin a supplement. The problem with vitamin a deficiency is caretinoids require a lot of energy and other types of vitamins and minerals to be present to be able to process them correctly. How are you measuring your temps? Are you sure they are correct?


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## tiffew (Mar 26, 2017)

Laser temp gun and in-habitat thermometers.


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## Cymmie (Mar 26, 2017)

the laser temp gun will definitely do a good read. Have you tried mixing any foods that he absolutely can't resist with anything else?


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## tiffew (Mar 26, 2017)

Yes we have. He only will eat pellets and only while he's soaking. Ugh.


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## Cymmie (Mar 27, 2017)

Hatchlings can be so difficult, especially when they are just getting out of feeling not so good... I would just feed the pellets at the moment as much as possible. Have you tried feeding him some insects or proteins, maybe even pieces of green (chopped up tiny) when he's soaking? Maybe his appetite is more stimulated when soaking at the moment and you just gotta work with that >.<'


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## tiffew (Apr 4, 2017)

This turtle is causing so much stress. I can't get the darn thing to eat for 6 days in a row again. His eyes are fine, habitat temps are ideal, proper level of humidity, etc., we offer worms, pellets, greens, dandelions, he walks away from food. Today he had a bright green poop, we have no idea from what because he last ate a week ago and it was one pellet and one Reptomin stick. What else can I do for this thing? I want it to thrive and be healthy.


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