# Borax ... Mycoplasma



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Mar 8, 2015)

Okay, here goes. I was going to post this in advanced tortoise topics ... or tortoise health ... or North American ... gopherus ... but it might stir a fuss so I am posting here. 

Has anyone ever used a borax soak to destroy the dreaded mycoplasma agassizii?
Yes borax, as in twenty one mule team, found in the laundry section next to soap.


----------



## Kathy Coles (Mar 8, 2015)

Could you tell me more about the problem? As in, I don't know very much and would like to learn. Is that a problem with only one species of tort?


----------



## Yvonne G (Mar 8, 2015)

I wonder if that would work. Mycoplasma symptoms show up as a respiratory infection.


----------



## Yvonne G (Mar 8, 2015)

Hm-m-m-m, interesting! I did a Google search and came up with this:

http://www.health-science-spirit.com/borax.htm


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Mar 8, 2015)

Mycoplasma in humans are the cause of things like walking pneumonia, lyme disease, lupus, to name a few. In tortoises, they can be hard to treat with antibiotics, as many tortoise keepers know. Plus there are side effects. Mycoplasma have no cell walls so they live inside a host cell. They are parasitic. Chronic is the best way to describe a tortoise with runny nose syndrome, possibly from worms, possibly for mycoplasma. Mycoplasma is supposedly manmade. I have read that we dropped them during the wars. I ask myself, did we test them in the desert? Are we thinking that this mycoplasma came from being in backyards, other animals, chickens? but maybe the wild populations become exposed during tests. Nevertheless ...

Borax is edible, like Epsom salts, like salt, in small amounts. Can we then soak our tortoises and hope that we get rid of them that way. I know that borax is a natural mineral and therefore, in my eyes, safer than a man made remedy. Borax also is very alkaline. Alkalinized soak water, can it effectively help zap the parasitic mycoplasma, away? That is the question! Food for thought.


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Mar 8, 2015)

Kathy Coles said:


> Could you tell me more about the problem? As in, I don't know very much and would like to learn. Is that a problem with only one species of tort?



Kathy, I have been thinking about this for over a year. I was thinking mostly about our desert tortoises out here in California, and in the neighboring southwest states, home to our gopherus agassizii and gopherus morafkai. Big icky. When they get this, it never seems to go away. As a matter of fact, experts, scientists, say that once a tortoise has the mycoplasma, it has it for life. Stress, like in human, will trigger symptoms. A lot of stress and no remedy, will kill it. Like humans. And in Nevada, tortoises were euthanized because of this chronic condition. Not happy to read that, was I. It really chapped my hide to read that, actually. (They are protected. Euthanizing them should not be an option, especially due to no room at the inn, as was originally stated and later changed, as a reason). I digress ...

I think the Upper Respiratory Tract Disease, URTD, can affect many tortoise species, if not all. Some symptoms may be due to worm infestation. Which are, like mycoplasma, parasitic.

Here's the thing: borax can kill mycoplasma in humans, according to some people in the holistic world. So, my thought is, can we take, say an 1/8th of a teaspoon in a quart of warm water, soak. Do this daily for a week. And voila, no more nasty mycoplasma. Could it be possible to zap that nasty thing out of their bodies in just that way? With borax?


----------



## wellington (Mar 8, 2015)

@Will @N2TORTS @deadheadvet any ideas, thoughts about this?


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Mar 8, 2015)

Added info, from Borax website, note Mojave Desert:

Borax operates California's largest open pit mine in Boron, California - one of the richest borate deposits on the planet. While boron is present everywhere in the environment, substantial deposits of borates are relatively rare. We supply nearly half the world's demand for refined borates, minerals essential to life and modern living.

Borax traces its roots to California's Death Valley, where borate deposits were discovered in 1872. The twenty mule teams Borax used to haul ore out of the remote desert live on as a symbol of the company's commitment to innovation. The current open pit in the Mojave Desert began as an underground mine in 1927, and Boron Operations was converted to a surface mine in the late 1950s.


----------



## tortadise (Mar 8, 2015)

He only I found is that elevated levels of boron can inhibit riboflavinuria which is a problem in avian, and as closely related chelonian/avian are I'd suggest against it. Definitely Evan(he's been tagged)will give much better advise on this as his uncle is very knowledgable in the desert tortoise mycoplasma issue. He's done decades of research on it, and developed a protocol for proper release to mitigate against transfer of this to wild populations.


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Mar 9, 2015)

tortadise said:


> He only I found is that elevated levels of boron can inhibit riboflavinuria which is a problem in avian, and as closely related chelonian/avian are I'd suggest against it. Definitely Evan(he's been tagged)will give much better advise on this as his uncle is very knowledgable in the desert tortoise mycoplasma issue. He's done decades of research on it, and developed a protocol for proper release to mitigate against transfer of this to wild populations.



Thanks so much for this insight. I hope we do hear from Evan and/or his uncle with their knowledge.
I was so excited about the possibilities of this being a holistic remedy when needed that would have less side effects.


----------



## deadheadvet (Mar 14, 2015)

Unless there is a valid paper working out dosing of any therapy, it would not be advised. No one knows what the consequences would be. We don't just extrapolate from the human medicine side of things when dealing with reptiles. I for one do not believe "according to some people in the holistic world"
What is that? We use science to make decisions regarding therapy, not wing it. We are very fortunate to have the information available to us thanks to our predecessors who have worked tirelessly throughout their careers as veterinarians, researchers, etc to provide the best care and knowledge to people who love this hobby. I for one would never jeopardize my animals without data saying that a treatment is going to be safe and effective.
As far as treatment for Mycoplasma, it's tough sledding unfortunately. It gets up into the nasal sinuses and is almost impossible to clear completely. Antibiotics can help keep it under control. Some animals are worse off than others. In my experience Star tortoises are notorious carriers of Mycoplasma. It is in a lot of collections and then these animals are moved around in the sale of animals. The poster who referenced the euthanasia of California desert tortoises has an opinion on the subject which we are all entitled to. However, there was a lot that went into those decisions that you no nothing about.
No one just nilly willy euthanizes animals unless there is a reason. Keep that in mind. There were close to a thousand tortoises that were surrendered, confiscated that were sick, and the funding to care for these animals was exhausted. Tough decisions had to be made. You can not release sick animals into the environment, they are a protected animal, so they can't be rehomed, So there you have it. Not a great situation. I am glad I didn't have to decide which animals could be saved and which couldn't. 
My best advice is to keep your collection clean, be very careful adding new animals without screening for specific pathogens. Mycoplasma is not always fatal but will ruin a collection.


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Mar 14, 2015)

Thank you deadheadvet, whose name I love ... I appreciate your insight very much.

It is a dilemma, a frustrating one at that, when we try to make it better for animals. Especially with something like this mycoplasma concern with not just gopherus, but as you stated, other species. Tough and nasty little bugger. That whole no cell wall thing, annoying. How do you shoot the thing? LOL.
My search for better is indeed partially fueled by my angst at what happened in Nevada.That as we all (may or may not) know, was a hugely politically motivated issue. The land was needed for the Chinese solar corporation that was tied, linked, in cahoots, with one powerful boss hogg politician and his son, who represents the sun loving Chinese firm. Those of us that love desert tortoises, well, it sucks having to protect the protected from the protectors. 
While we know the use of Baytril is common practice, except on leopard tortoises, who are allergic to it I believe, and it can kill then, when I approached Bayer Animal Health for their help in the Nevada tortoise matter, they were very and super willing to help. I went up the ladder of approvals, until I almost made it to the board meeting agenda for consideration as sponsors and financial help. It was then that the wirtschaftsanwalt (corporate lawyers) stopped it al in its tracks. The reason: Baytril should not be used on tortoises and is not approved for such in the USA. What?

This article in chelonia.org then lead me to the next part of my search. http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/mycodarrell.htm

And that lead to the questions: What natural remedy is there? What will kill mycoplasma?
The search then lead me to the findings you will see also if you google "mycoplasma" "natural remedies."
And that lead to borax, plain and simple, borax.

I agree, testing our cares is scary and dangerous, so I then wondered out loud in this debatable section. It looks like it would be less harmful than some of the antibiotics, and baytril for sure. The question I find myself asking is indeed, would I go there and try it? Would I risk it?


----------



## deadheadvet (Mar 15, 2015)

Great debate going on here. The best way to treat Mycoplasma is antibiotic nasal flushes. Not easy to do and sometimes impossible. 
The bureau of land management and army corps of engineers had funding for 20 years, that was exhausted last year. Hence no money to continue the program. 
Getting back to Borax, unless someone is willing to do a limited study as to efficacy and safety
Peril is there for the taking.


----------



## HLogic (Mar 15, 2015)

The statement or claim that a drug is not "approved" for a particular class of animals simply means there have been no clinical trials, not that it is ineffective or dangerous in any way.

Doing any study would require very specialized equipment or fistfuls of $$ to test for Mycoplasma. You can't just grow them on a petri dish...


----------



## deadheadvet (Mar 15, 2015)

Exactly! So those that have provided us with information on treatment protocols have been worked out pharmacokinetically so as to provide treatment the correct way, not based on hearsay by people in the holistic community with no factual basis to support their claims.


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Mar 15, 2015)

Thank you HLogic and deadheadvet ... I am in total agreement with you both. Quite a ying and yang.

HLogic, Bayer Animal Health in Monheim, Germany is whom I was dealing with. I suppose as you said, it is effective, but Bayer does not want to spend the money to get FDA, or is it USDA, approval. In any case, they sent me a cordial letter saying that as much as they would have liked to help, no can do.

deadheadvet, yes, it is true, we do have to see things worked out, but what about people who have been their own rat/little pig/bunny and tested these methods on themselves and then claim that it worked for them? Someone claim miracles, allelulia! While I realize this is people medicine stuff, I suppose I was hopeful that it would nip things once and for all for my chelonian cares. Although I have to state that my concern here at home is for a Greek tortoise I obtained from PetSmart 2 years ago. (I know, naughty. But I could not help myself and now I bear the responsibility). We know it was probably wild caught. Many, oh many, vet visits and that RNS persists. Thankfully, my CDT's habitat is not anywhere near the Greek, but the constant threat of it appearing one day, from a latent sleep as I read often, especially with what I have gone through with this little Greek, is why I am doing my due diligence and my wondering, ahead of time. Girl scout be prepared thing, LOL.

And yes. They did run out of money in Nevada. With the revenue from the housing markets going kapoot, they had no more funds but the funds that they did get,for many years... O.M.G. Make that *O.M.G! *Our little friends would have been better off in private hands and care. As a tax payer, it made my stomach turn to see those numbers. Shame on the BLM and friends. Where did all that money go? Getting an audit, with the solar concerns, is not going to happen. Like I said, we the people really do have to protect the protected from the protectors. They are not being protected. And to that end, I am speaking to many a legislator. Tough sell. "Turtles don't vote." Tortoises, Mr. Politician, they are tortoises! You get my drift. Sigh. And we press on ... for solutions.


----------



## HLogic (Mar 15, 2015)

BeeBee*BeeLeaves said:


> HLogic, Bayer Animal Health in Monheim, Germany is whom I was dealing with. I suppose as you said, it is effective, but Bayer does not want to spend the money to get FDA, or is it USDA, approval. In any case, they sent me a cordial letter saying that as much as they would have liked to help, no can do.



I didn't [yet] say it was effective but I have used it, under veterinary direction, to cure bacterial infections that were sensitive to ciprofloxacin (the active metabolite when enrofloxacin is administered orally) with resounding success.

I understand why Bayer would be hesitant to support an effort that had not received approval from whatever regulatory body attends to that arena. Lots of Baytril is prescribed for approved animals.


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Mar 15, 2015)

HLogic said:


> I didn't [yet] say it was effective but I have used it, under veterinary direction, to cure bacterial infections that were sensitive to ciprofloxacin (the active metabolite when enrofloxacin is administered orally) with resounding success.



That's the thing HLogic, mycoplasma is a little different than the average (sic) bacteria. From my layman understanding, it is a genus that does not have a cell wall but instead uses others as hosts in a parasitic sort of way. By doing so, it can hide from antibiotics. The key is killing the little mother when it has lost its cell wall hiding place. That's just my understanding. Experts feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Because of mycoplasma's ability to play hide and seek, it is tough to kill. Borax (sodium borate) is a boron component, a salt, a mineral, which some people claim can and will kill human mycoplasma. Mycoplasma in humans is implicated in lyme disease, walking pneumonia, some cancers. So if it can kill human mycoplasma, could I be so lucky as to have it kill the one affecting my little wild caught Greek tortoise, once and for all time? I know, I am not a scientist. But I am mad. Both kinds, angry and crazy. In order to find a cure, of course. LOL.


----------



## HLogic (Mar 15, 2015)

I am aware of Mycoplasma's intracellular lifestyle and its integration into the DNA of the host organism's cells - much like many viri. One never knows what may work. I doubt borates in microdoses would be harmful to the tort and may be worth trying. Determining how well it is working (i.e. getting Mycoplasma testing done) may be expensive as it would need to be done several times to verify its long-term efficacy.


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Mar 15, 2015)

That's what I am thinking HLogic. For the many times we have tried with meds, I could have done the ELISA to see what is really up with those tiny, hiding mycoplasma that on top of everything else you cannot even see by microscope, they are so small and elusive. I just want the little guy to be okay. He eats, he sleeps, he explores, but that RNS is chronic. I hate runny noses so I am sure he is not liking his either. He has white under his nose, it is so persistent.


----------



## laney (Jan 23, 2016)

One of my torts is on his second type of antibiotics as his mycoplasma has flared up again. He never has the runny nose but his poor wee eyes suffer. I am going to show this to my exotic vet as it doesn't look like these antibiotics are helping either


----------

