# solid urate!!! help



## sportychick (May 12, 2012)

My Russian tort passed a urate that was solid..

What's the cause? Few days ago it was liquid with a few white dots in it and today like this... its also been +30 here and humid for past few days. I only soak every day when its hot other wise every other day is what I was doing. He also doesn't soak himself yet. He seems uninterested in the water dish...
Help please


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## dmmj (May 12, 2012)

Are you sure it is urates and not a stone of some kind? if it is a solid urate, I would say he is dehydrated, that is the only thing I can come up with.


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## sportychick (May 12, 2012)

I say urate because it was in his soak this morning and he let it out.

I happened to see him do it so that's why I'm asking what it is.and what I can do to change it back to more liquid


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## dmmj (May 12, 2012)

They also pass kidney stones and such when they soak, that is why I was asking.


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## sportychick (May 12, 2012)

Hmmi don't know. How or why would he get/have a stone? And is this normal for them?


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## ascott (May 12, 2012)

Hydrate hydrate hydrate...soaks daily for no less than thirty minutes..I would personally soak longer...also you can make sure he is getting enough fiber in his food...and revisit what food items you are offering...may need to be a bit more balanced and also include adequate fiber rich foods.....


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## yoda3106 (May 12, 2012)

sportychick said:


> My Russian tort passed a urate that was solid..
> 
> What's the cause? Few days ago it was liquid with a few white dots in it and today like this... its also been +30 here and humid for past few days. I only soak every day when its hot other wise every other day is what I was doing. He also doesn't soak himself yet. He seems uninterested in the water dish...
> Help please



Try not to worry  

Henry passed a white stone a few months back in his soak which I thought was solid urate, it wasn't, I was a stone which very possibly stuck to his food as he ate it and he's fine!! Mad as ever!! I'd start soaking him everyday for the next couple weeks just to be on the safe side, there's very slight chance he maybe dehydrated, only little thou due to the change in temp!!

Does he seem himself?


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## dmmj (May 12, 2012)

Stones are not normal neither is hard urates, I would soak everyday for awhile and see what happens. Dumb question time, but doeshe have access to a water dish?


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## sportychick (May 12, 2012)

OK so I'll change up his soaks to everyday.... and I'll add.more stuff for him to eat. So this is.normal to happen? And can be fixed to normal urine/urates 
Always good to hear 



dmmj said:


> Stones are not normal neither is hard urates, I would soak everyday for awhile and see what happens. Dumb question time, but doeshe have access to a water dish?



Oi so not normal... but fixable....
And yes he has access to water dish change it clean everyday but he doesn't go for it at all.. walks to it look in maybe a leg in and boom "runs" away lol. So I'm hoping he will be better soon.


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## ascott (May 12, 2012)

Be sure to soak for at least half an hour and keep the eater warm...make him remain in the soak even if he looks like he is stomping around looking to get out...the stomping around is also good movement and is beneficial....


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## sportychick (May 12, 2012)

Other then sleeping two days ago most of the day (as I said think it was heat) put him outside yesterday and he was moving.most.of the day... he's eating and basking/sleeping under the light and alert when he sees or hears things. He knows when u add food he comes fast over to check it out  and right now it is raining.out but +20 so I have him on the balcony
he is in his hide with his head popped out awake lostening and alert to tge rain falling 
Ill keep an eye in it as its the first time.
Yesterday he went in his substrate and it was half liquid and half white but like a paste if that makes sense


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## dmmj (May 12, 2012)

Right now I see it as one of three things, hard urates, resulting from being dehydrated, a kidney stone also from dehydration or something he ate outside and he passed it.


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## sportychick (May 12, 2012)

http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj569/sportychick27/IMG_20120512_103546.jpg

This is him listening.outside to the rain  
So I'll do soaks everyday add more variety of foods and keep you guys posted  thank you for the help and reassuring of what it is and that its fixable


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## ascott (May 12, 2012)

I peeked at the pic you posted last....may I suggest, strongly, that you do a sleek of baby food soaks along with every other day warm water soaks (so you would be doing a baby food soak every day and every other day you would do the baby food soak and then in the evening you would do a warm water soak)...I also would be sure to get him outside for no less than an hour for sunlight....I also would make sure you make him get up and walk...don't let him sleep so much...bug him several times a day to assure he is forced to move...I also would make sure the soaks are no no less than 30 minutes...

I would be pro active with this tort...I see eyes that are not showing a healthy robust appearance and I see some slight swelling of the skinny around his neck...please be sure to not skip soaks...wake up and walk sessions....you can pm Maggie and request her to look at this pic and see if she sees the same as I do dear....


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## sportychick (May 14, 2012)

ascott said:


> I peeked at the pic you posted last....may I suggest, strongly, that you do a sleek of baby food soaks along with every other day warm water soaks (so you would be doing a baby food soak every day and every other day you would do the baby food soak and then in the evening you would do a warm water soak)...I also would be sure to get him outside for no less than an hour for sunlight....I also would make sure you make him get up and walk...don't let him sleep so much...bug him several times a day to assure he is forced to move...I also would make sure the soaks are no no less than 30 minutes...
> 
> I would be pro active with this tort...I see eyes that are not showing a healthy robust appearance and I see some slight swelling of the skinny around his neck...please be sure to not skip soaks...wake up and walk sessions....you can pm Maggie and request her to look at this pic and see if she sees the same as I do dear....



I appreciate the advice!! How do u keep them in the soak I mean he can't climb out its high but he trays don't want him to hurt himself.
What do u mean by robust? Sorry  
I hope he's healthy and the things you are saying are fixable!! 
Update on urate they are getting better


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## Maggie Cummings (May 14, 2012)

One of the things I would do immediately if not sooner would be to change out his substrate. Get him off those pellets. Put him on coir or cypress mulch. You have him on a terrible substrate, I believe they are sucking the moisture from him...

Angela is big on long soaks of an hour or more but all the research I have done says that if they are gonna drink they do it in the first 10 minutes. They can absorb moisture (if they are dehydrated) thru the soft spot in their throat and thru their cloaca, so I do believe that a 30 minute soak is good but no longer than that as it freaks out Russians for some reason. They just don't like to soak.

Now I'm gonna do a reverse...if you want to soak him longer and it will make you feel good to do it, add strained carrots to the soak. Babyfood, Gerber's. Soak him for an hour in strained carrots. You'd put him in a small container with high sides and add 1/2 a jar of strained carrots to it and hang a 100 watt incandescent light bulb over it to keep him warm. Bring the water even with his bridge, that's where the plastron meets the carapace...

But for me I think the most important thing is to change out that nasty substrate right away... 

What is his diet like? I forgot to ask about that...


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## sportychick (May 14, 2012)

maggie3fan said:


> One of the things I would do immediately if not sooner would be to change out his substrate. Get him off those pellets. Put him on coir or cypress mulch. You have him on a terrible substrate, I believe they are sucking the moisture from him...
> 
> Angela is big on long soaks of an hour or more but all the research I have done says that if they are gonna drink they do it in the first 10 minutes. They can absorb moisture (if they are dehydrated) thru the soft spot in their throat and thru their cloaca, so I do believe that a 30 minute soak is good but no longer than that as it freaks out Russians for some reason. They just don't like to soak.
> 
> ...



Hi thank you for your reply. I do have him on coco coir ..
It needed to wet it as it was drying ... I will start with tomorrows soak with baby food but I haven't seen Gerber where I am. Also after 20mins he wants out of his soak. If I leave him there and yes climbing out will he get stressed?


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## ascott (May 14, 2012)

Robust...what I meant by that is his eyes appear a bit flat...I mean they could be much more round and alert....it worries me when a tort has a withdrawn kinda dry loom to their eyes....

Maggie is correct in that Russians as a species seems to have less than a love for being soaked like a potato ....however, if a tort has a dry appearance and is having a hard time with passing solid urates then there is some dehydration likely going in...and if so a dehydrated tort if let go too long can begin to not do the things on its own that are necessary and beneficial to their over all well being....hence we step in and try to encourage manually the things necessary and in doing these things allow the tort to get an over all good feeling which then can promote a sense of health....and can then continue to function until they get out or through the funk...

I absolutely adore Maggie and have tremendous respect for her years of experience...especially when speaking of a baby or young tort...this is why I encouraged you to pm her and ask for her input....my concern was the eyes and the slight start of what appears to be swelling of the normally loose skin around the tortoise neck....do get the little tort some sun...soaks and foods rich in vitamin a...


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## Maggie Cummings (May 14, 2012)

What's his diet like? Why don't you have Gerber's? It's the most popular baby food ever. Your substrate looks too dry and your tortoise looks too skinny. Did I miss something about his diet?

Angela, I agree he looks dehydrated, you are correct about that, and he looks with drawn and skinny...She says he's on coir but it looks like dry pellets to me...Better start soaking him for an hour daily...


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## sportychick (May 15, 2012)

OK so I'm going to start his baby food soaks this.morning and see how that goes. Skinny?? Really? I don't want to over feed him either lol.. 
Maggie no sorry I thought I wrote his diet in there he gets lettuce dandelions rose leaves strawberry leaves.. I gave him one day a treat of cucumber ... 
As for gerber im in czech and i never seen it.. so i hope another brand is ok  
I've only had him for two weeks so I hope to get better at this.and make him happy and healthy

I wet his substrate so its moist and its better for him.. and this.morning he was out and moving and had even took a dip into his water as I could tell since it was dirty


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## sportychick (May 15, 2012)

So here's my day so far. I got up with my son at 8am, our tort was already up and out of his hide.. usually around 7 since my husband leaves for work and the torts light comes on. I noticed he had been in his water dish was he was damp and there was pee and poop in it  only ever second time I have found the dish like this..
I fed him a snack and I had to go to the store to buy the baby food. So in that time after he ate he basked/napped. I then got it ready and let him soak in it for 45 minutes as near the end he was trying his hardest to get out and I didn't want to stress him to much. 
After the soak I had put him outside in the sun and he had his food . He stayed out walking and basking until 130 and now is resting.in his hide but still outside. Its +18 with sun so its not to chilly.
His poop is normal and his pee is liquid with very small urate that have been getting.smaller and.more liquid each day since this thread started 

http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj569/sportychick27/IMG_20120515_115532.jpg

Here is a pic of him on the move


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## ascott (May 15, 2012)

You will do just fabulous dear and his eyes are already looking a bit better and the slight puffiness appears to be decreasing around his neck skin...yup....offer him loads of food...he will chunky dunk up just fine....keep up the sun...soak...and stuff him for awhile ....good job dear...

I know you are in other country...so which ever baby food manufacturer that is common place where you are will be fine as long as the content is same you know?


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## sportychick (May 15, 2012)

ascott said:


> You will do just fabulous dear and his eyes are already looking a bit better and the slight puffiness appears to be decreasing around his neck skin...yup....offer him loads of food...he will chunky dunk up just fine....keep up the sun...soak...and stuff him for awhile ....good job dear...
> 
> I know you are in other country...so which ever baby food manufacturer that is common place where you are will be fine as long as the content is same you know?



Thanks hun  I noticed also that he looks "wetter" if that makes sense not dry. And in happy to have noticed he soaked himself .. i did an evening soak of just warm water for 30 mins boy did he hate it..  I find he is calm til after he goes to the bathroom in his soak and then wants out.
Yes I know  
Well I an glad that you are seeing an improvement and I again thank you and Maggie for you great advice!!! I'll be sure to keep an update and post pics in a few days so we can compare and chat 
Btw almost all liquid pee with a small end of white is that what it needs to stay at?


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## ascott (May 15, 2012)

You know...if he seems to begin the "let me out" jig after he fouls the water...perhaps have a clean jug of warm water at the ready and after he does his business...dump that water and then plop him back in and add some warm clean water for the rest of the time you designate as his soak time....I do this from time to time with the baby RF here...

Funny how different species do different things in a soak....when I force soak the adult CDTs when they come out of brumation and a few times during the summer...no matter how long they soak they have never eliminated in the water...now they will walk a bit and then do their business....funny....

I personally don't want to see any urates at all (the CDTs system is very similar in regards to urates) and the guys here will have urates of course coming out of brumation but then within two or three weeks they have cleared urates and pass clear liquid....some on the Forum goal for toothpaste texture and others allow some chunk...I personally like to know it is cleared out and they are hydrated well....


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## sportychick (May 15, 2012)

ascott said:


> You know...if he seems to begin the "let me out" jig after he fouls the water...perhaps have a clean jug of warm water at the ready and after he does his business...dump that water and then plop him back in and add some warm clean water for the rest of the time you designate as his soak time....I do this from time to time with the baby RF here...
> 
> Funny how different species do different things in a soak....when I force soak the adult CDTs when they come out of brumation and a few times during the summer...no matter how long they soak they have never eliminated in the water...now they will walk a bit and then do their business....funny....
> 
> I personally don't want to see any urates at all (the CDTs system is very similar in regards to urates) and the guys here will have urates of course coming out of brumation but then within two or three weeks they have cleared urates and pass clear liquid....some on the Forum goal for toothpaste texture and others allow some chunk...I personally like to know it is cleared out and they are hydrated well....



Well I hope to get it all clear also  OK I will try the change out and see what he thinks of that lol


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## sportychick (May 16, 2012)

This morning I managed a 1 hour baby food soak :-D I got him before he full woke up and moving to get Warner under his light so he sat nicely without his escape attempts.. can not say that for his evening reg soak tho lol. He wanted out 20 mins in and he didn't poop in the water so it was clean he just didn't like it hehe


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## ascott (May 17, 2012)

Good job....


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## sportychick (May 18, 2012)

Thank you  so today there's no white in his pee just pure liquid  I also managed to get him out in the sun for a total of 2 and a half hours. But not all in one seating as its a little chilly here again today! I'm trying to get him to est a lot but he is wanting to be picky. I read he can have grape vine leafs and pear tree leafs so I changed his food a little bit to add some variety for a few days.. he seems to enjoy it. 
I will try to snap a pic over the weekend of him out in the sun so u can see if he is or has improved :-D
Thanks again all for the advice!!!


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## reticguy76 (May 18, 2012)

just remember in reptiles, that is how they excrete uric acid. they can get a disease (humans get it as well, i have it and ive seen tortoises, lizards and snakes all in my clinic get it) called gout. expelling urates is a good thing in reptiles. if they harbor urates (uric acid) in them, it can spread to joints and couse acute arthritis (gout) its painful


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## ascott (May 18, 2012)

So happy to hear!! I look forward to a new pic for sure...you two are doing a grand job.....


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## sportychick (May 18, 2012)

ascott said:


> So happy to hear!! I look forward to a new pic for sure...you two are doing a grand job.....



Thank you  I added pics yesterday in the photo section under how am I looking ... u should have a look there.. thanks again for all the amazing advice and help!!


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## dmmj (May 18, 2012)

Glad to hear he is doing better.


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