# Training your tortoises...acceptable or "exploitative"?



## Terry Allan Hall (Jun 26, 2010)

My youngest son's girlfriend, _who I should mention is a rabid member of PETA_, has a new rant: She feels that by ringing a bell everytime I feed my torts, so they come a-running to be fed, I'm exploiting them...that if I truly loved them for themselves, I wouldn't be "conditioning their responses"...

All this time I just thought I was letting them know I'd brought 'em dinner... 

So, what's verdict: Is it exploitive to teach them when it's feeding time via a bell, whistle, etc?

BTW, you don't even want to know about the heated discussions about my family eating the venison, etc. from my hunting trips...


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## PeanutbuttER (Jun 26, 2010)

Training animals is just fine. In fact it's unavoidable. They learn your routines so if you feed them the same time every day then that's essentially training them as well to be hungry at that time. 

I really don't understand what her premise is. Is she ranting about the fact that they're being "trained" or about the fact that they're learning a routine outside of what they'd know in the wild?


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## JenniferinFL (Jun 26, 2010)

C'mon now, you would have to abandon ALL reason to be able to agree with a PETA member on just about anything..

First of all, you have to keep this very important thought in mind about PETA's opinion of pets. 
http://www.peta.org/campaigns/ar-petaonpets.asp
"We at PETA very much love the animal companions who share our homes, but we believe that it would have been in the animals' best interests if the institution of "pet keeping"Ã¢â‚¬â€i.e., breeding animals to be kept and regarded as "pets"Ã¢â‚¬â€never existed."


http://www.peta.org/mc/factsheet_display.asp?ID=133
"In a perfect world, animals would be free to live their lives to the fullest, raising their young and following their natural instincts in their native environments. Domesticated dogs and cats, however, cannot live Ã¢â‚¬Å“freeÃ¢â‚¬Â in our concrete jungles, so we are responsible for their care. People with the time, money, love, and patience to make a lifetime commitment to an animal can make an enormous difference by adopting an animal from a shelter or rescuing an animal from a perilous
life on the streets. IT IS IMPORTANT, ALSO, TO KEEP OUR COMPANION ANIMALS FROM REPRODUCING, WHICH PERPETUATES A CLASS OF ANIMALS WHO ARE
FORCED TO RELY ON HUMANS TO SURVIVE."

And, a brief tidbit from their thoughts on reptiles..
http://www.peta.org/mc/factsheet_display.asp?ID=9
"Purchasing a reptile caught in his or her natural habitat encourages the removal of wildlife from delicate ecosystems. Buying captive-bred animals only encourages breeders to replenish their stock. If you must have a reptile as an animal companion, please consider adopting one from a local animal shelter or rescue group."

Now, granted, they do say a few things that are correct on each of those pages. BUT, the overall stance always has and will always be against the keeping of pets. So, why would they approve of training them if they don't approve of you even HAVING them?

That PETA site is really hard to browse and actually finding their stance takes a lot of reading. I would guess that most PETA supporters don't even know what they are supporting. 

Actually, I know that's true.. lol.. I've enjoyed showing those links to many PETA supporters who frequently relinquish their support once they understand what they are supporting.


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## Madkins007 (Jun 26, 2010)

If your torts gather in a certain place at a certain time to eat, you've already conditioned then.

Training animals to behave in certain ways can be very beneficial. Zoos often train animals to do things that assist in their daily cares. Training your torts to come to a signal (normally to get fed) is not a big deal and can help you if they are outside to make sure everyone is safe. If a storm or cold front is coming, you can ring the bell to gather them inside, etc.

Having said that, torts are mostly deaf to air-borne sounds. You might try thumping a log or something instead and get more vibration out of it.


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## turtletania (Jun 26, 2010)

I cover part of all my "enclosures" when I go to bed..... all my torts and turts know that when the cover comes off that is feed time. They see the cover being removed and come running/swimming right over. I love it... and so do they cos they get fed!!!


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## Seiryu (Jun 26, 2010)

Yep. My Thor is already sitting at his feeding area if I am even 10 minutes late on our usual routine. That's "training" without even trying. We all know our tortoises love routine.


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## Yvonne G (Jun 26, 2010)

I draw the line at making them sit up and beg!


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## Laura (Jun 26, 2010)

PETA KILLS animals so they dont become pets... Anyone who is a proud member, either doesnt do thier homework or if they do and truely believe that... Id not allow them over anymore..
Training means different things to people.. Zoos used to be 100% against training.. in thier minds it was training 'tricks'. But when keepers showed the Higher ups that training was beneficial, such as 'training' them to lock out, take meds etc.. and it safer etc... they were ALLFOR IT! 
Your torts coming to be fed to a bell.. is great.. it can also be used if they ever get out.. hopefully they will be found!


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## turtletania (Jun 26, 2010)

Laura.... great idea... to use if they get out. Interesting to test if it works?


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jun 26, 2010)

Laura said:


> PETA KILLS animals so they dont become pets... Anyone who is a proud member, either doesnt do thier homework or if they do and truely believe that... Id not allow them over anymore..
> 
> *Hard to tell my son that "the love of his life" isn't welcome in our home just for being a bit of a PITA to me, so I just have to tolerate her w/ as much good humor as I can muster up...and patiently wait 'til one loses interest in the other (he's 17 and she's 18), so it could be just any day now...teen-age romances often are transitory, unless a parent opposes it, thus binding them together tightly!
> 
> ...



*Good points! *


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## Tom (Jun 26, 2010)

Terry, you should be ashamed of yourself. Openly admitting to engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed teeny-bopper oponent? Sheesh, I thought better of you.


Ha Ha.




JenniferinFL:
Oh, I like you already.


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## JenniferinFL (Jun 26, 2010)

Tom said:


> Terry, you should be ashamed of yourself. Openly admitting to engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed teeny-bopper oponent? Sheesh, I thought better of you.
> 
> 
> Ha Ha.
> ...





Haha, really? I was kinda nervous after posting that, never quite sure how a particular forum will react to that. I always manage to slip up and post that on a forum populated by mostly the animal rights people and boy does that get the pitchforks sharpened and the torches lit fast..


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## DudeAbides (Jun 27, 2010)

Next time you should show her your tortoise's new fashionable chinchilla skin shell cover!


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jun 27, 2010)

DudeAbides said:


> Next time you should show her your tortoise's new fashionable chinchilla skin shell cover!



My wife already accuses me of spoiling Jennifer and Ptolemy... 

Besides, the wife has a pet chinchilla...just as I love my reptiles, she loves furry little beasties.


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## Tom (Jun 27, 2010)

I LOVE animals too.



They taste great!


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## Stephanie Logan (Jun 27, 2010)

Well, this mainstream liberal is not proud of our "Glenn Becks" on the left fringe. I recognize and deplore their paranoid, misguided, contradictory rants. PETA certainly doesn't speak for me and I pay no attention to their hysterical name-calling and take-no-prisoners approach. It's a shame they have any following at all, with their research-free policies and shrill "absolute" statements. Silly. 

I think your son's girlfriend is too young to have studied much about natural animal instincts and responses to stimuli, with or without a human factor. If she goes to college she will soon take a basic psyche course that will include some of the classic studies done in this area and their relationship to animals' naturally selective instincts that have allowed them to survive and reproduce.


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## DeanS (Jun 27, 2010)

Tom said:


> I LOVE animals too.
> 
> 
> 
> They taste great!



Uh-Oh! You and me and Ted Nugent!

Conditioning is a part of everyday life...I walk in the back and Mortimer and Aladar make a beeline towards me....everytime! They know I'm gonna give them something. And the GREAT thing is, most of the time it's just a chin or neck rub...and they love it. Neither one even tucks his head in anymore (unless I accidentally block out their sun when they're basking). 

BTW, Terry's use of the bell isn't really any different than clicker-training, except that he is using the bell to initiate a behavior rather than letting the animal know it has performed his behavior respondently This is not intrusive in the least since tortoises have an internal ear...so anything they hear would be rather muffled.

When I worked gorillas at SD Zoo, we received an impromptu classroom training in which we had to perform operant conditioning on a fellow keeper...that was a trip to see who was actually GREAT and who was average

Part of the training was an assigned read...*DON'T SHOOT THE DOG* by Karen Pryor...this book is highly recommended to ALL


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## Itort (Jun 27, 2010)

I don't how many are aware that PETA is listed by the US Justice Department as a terrorist group. Fine bunch to be a member of. I think a tortoise responding to a dinner bell is the same as a wild tortoise responding to a troop of monkeys dropping fruit in the forest.


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## Angi (Jun 27, 2010)

I think your son needs a new girlfriend. You may want to have him invite his friends over for a BBQ. He will probably decide she isn't much fun.

I think her views are off, but most 18 year olds are. My husband the ultra conservative CFO was a democrat at 18.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jun 27, 2010)

Angi said:


> I think your son needs a new girlfriend.
> 
> *I agree, but that's a decision he'll have to make for himself...*
> 
> ...


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## Angi (Jun 27, 2010)

As a parent of a 17 year old, you have years of girls you like and girls you don't hanging out with your son.
My oldest son just turned 16 and cars are his big focus and basketball.


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## Tom (Jun 27, 2010)

Angi said:


> As a parent of a 17 year old, you have years of girls you like and girls you don't hanging out with your son.
> My oldest son just turned 16 and cars are his big focus and basketball.



I had just one focus at 16... and 17 and, well it really hasn't changed.

It wasn't cars or sweaty men playing sports.

I guess everybody is different.


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## Seiryu (Jun 27, 2010)

> I had just one focus at 16... and 17 and, well it really hasn't changed.
> 
> It wasn't cars or sweaty men playing sports.
> 
> I guess everybody is different.



Right, reptiles in mini-skirts!


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jun 27, 2010)

Angi said:


> As a parent of a 17 year old, you have years of girls you like and girls you don't hanging out with your son.
> 
> *Yeah...fun, fun, fun! *
> 
> My oldest son just turned 16 and cars are his big focus and basketball.





Seiryu said:


> > I had just one focus at 16... and 17 and, well it really hasn't changed.
> >
> > It wasn't cars or sweaty men playing sports.
> >
> ...



Wonder if I can get a nice one made for Jennifer...


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## tortoisenerd (Jun 27, 2010)

I think conditioning a tort to know food time is completely fine. I do the same by tapping on my tort's slate tile. He looks up at me every time and I think he gets it, even though he doesn't always come running over. I think training animals to the point that places like Sea World do is wrong, as the animals are exploited and have to do the tricks for the food, etc. I think moderation is good for everything. PETA is a bit too extremist for my liking, as much as I believe in animal rights.


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## moswen (Jun 27, 2010)

terry, i'm so sorry that you even had to ask that question, what on earth is she thinking? you're not FORCING your torts to do anything, they simply have learned that that bell means something awesome... food!!! and that makes EVERY animal happy, and not even someone from peta can argue that an animal is happy to have food!! 

i love animals and i've thought about looking into peta a couple of times, but i never have, and really, if they believe that every animal should live in it's natural environment... i agree with that to an extent, i mean, you shouldn't bring a tiger into your home, but i honestly see nothing wrong with bringing an animal into your home where there are no daily threats of territory or being eaten from other animals, no daily searches for food, no days where an animal goes hungry, no days where animals DIE OF STARVATION, and the animal is loved and properly cared for... how can you claim to love animals and argue with that!?!?

whatev. you're not doing anything wrong. i so TOTALLY agree with the barbecue idea and your son's friends! that's the most awesome thing i've heard all day!

actually, if you think about it, if there weren't all those nuts out there, we would have a harder time looking "normal"!



Itort said:


> I don't how many are aware that PETA is listed by the US Justice Department as a terrorist group. Fine bunch to be a member of. I think a tortoise responding to a dinner bell is the same as a wild tortoise responding to a troop of monkeys dropping fruit in the forest.



wow that's the best argument i think i've ever heard! really, who'se got their heads on their shoulders tonight... i'm envious that you came up with that and not me lol!!!!


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## Stephanie Logan (Jun 27, 2010)

Seiryu said:


> Right, reptiles in mini-skirts!



Hahahaha! I'll bet Tom still has the posters on his wall in his basement.


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## Tom (Jun 27, 2010)

Stephanie Logan said:


> Seiryu said:
> 
> 
> > Right, reptiles in mini-skirts!
> ...



Ha! We don't have basements in CA. The only pic I've managed to save is my Nagel print. My wife promised I could keep it up, so she hid it in our upstairs bathroom.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jun 29, 2010)

moswen said:


> terry, i'm so sorry that you even had to ask that question, what on earth is she thinking? you're not FORCING your torts to do anything, they simply have learned that that bell means something awesome... food!!! and that makes EVERY animal happy, and not even someone from peta can argue that an animal is happy to have food!!
> 
> *Oh, I'm not upset or anything, just amused...and thought I'd share some amusement w/ my tortoise lovin' peeps!
> 
> ...





*LOL...an excellent analogy, at that! *


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jul 6, 2010)

The pot-luck Bar-B-Q was a success, on several levels: got a chance to meet some of Son's running buddies (a pretty cool bunch, it turns out, and all were very good about helping clean up our yard afterwards) and a few of their parents (mostly decent folks, except for one obnoxious drunk), ate some great food and enjoyed the fireworks (living on top of the tallest hill for miles around, we had a great view of several nearby small towns' displays, as well as a few rather inpressive "amateur" shows, but the best show, by far, was The Girlfriend's tantrums at all of us omnivores. 

Son's best friend, C-Dawg (Clarence to his parents) got in the best zinger: when The Girlfriend told us how sickening it was to watch us eat "dead flesh". he thoughtfully pointed out that, otoh, eating animals alive was messier, considerably less humane and really made a lot of racket! 

When she demanded that Son take her elsewhere, he told he certainly could, just as soon as he finished eating...and that he was enjoying all the tasty offerings! 

However, the best part was when, after finishing up her salad, my daughter explained that her home-made salad dressing, made from the traditional Cherokee recipe, had a base made from deer blood and very-finely chopped sweetmeats...

The Girlfriend wasn't too thrilled by that news... 

Hope all of y'all had a good 4th...


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## DeanS (Jul 6, 2010)

Maybe next fourth, the girlfriend can be grilled


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jul 6, 2010)

DeanS said:


> Maybe next fourth, the girlfriend can be grilled



Probably not... 

There was another sweet young thing, knowledgable about torts and things, at the soirre, and she was making eyes at my son...intend to invite her over _*often*_ and see what happens...


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## DeanS (Jul 6, 2010)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> DeanS said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe next fourth, the girlfriend can be grilled
> ...



HEY! That's even better!


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jul 7, 2010)

DeanS said:


> Terry Allan Hall said:
> 
> 
> > DeanS said:
> ...


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## Jacqui (Jul 8, 2010)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> However, the best part was when, after finishing up her salad, my daughter explained that her home-made salad dressing, made from the traditional Cherokee recipe, had a base made from deer blood and very-finely chopped sweetmeats...
> 
> The Girlfriend wasn't too thrilled by that news...


First off, don't get me wrong I am in no way a fan of PETA and I myself don't approve of the gf's behavior, but what you guys did with giving her the dressing knowing her thoughts on eating meat was a bit on the cruel side. She is young and very strong in her opinions and hasn't learned to show proper vocal control when invited into somebody's home. However you showed a bit of immaturity yourself on allowing this little "get even" behavior with the salad dressing and your daughter.


...and btw, let's get back onto the topic of training your tortoises.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jul 8, 2010)

Jacqui said:


> Terry Allan Hall said:
> 
> 
> > However, the best part was when, after finishing up her salad, my daughter explained that her home-made salad dressing, made from the traditional Cherokee recipe, had a base made from deer blood and very-finely chopped sweetmeats...
> ...



She was told, by me, prior to eating it, what was in the dressing, but chose to believe she was being lied to, until she found out she had not been...therefore, I don't feel my daughter (or anyone else, other than her) was at fault.

The great American writer/humorist, Mark Twain, once said, "_*You can tell a man not to carry a cat by it's tail, but actually attempting such a feat teaches why*_".

And if she hasn't learned enough manners to go out in public by the age of 18, when will she learn them?

'Nough said...back to the subject of training torts, as per your wish!


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## Jacqui (Jul 8, 2010)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> She was told, by me, prior to eating it, what was in the dressing, but chose to believe she was being lied to, until she found out she had not been...therefore, I don't feel my daughter (or anyone else, other than her) was at fault.
> 
> And if she hasn't learned enough manners to go out in public by the age of 18, when will she learn them?


You never said anywhere, that she had been told before she ate any.

Some folks take longer and some never do learn public manners. Seem fewer and fewer learn manners every day, but that's another topic for another debate thread.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jul 8, 2010)

Jacqui said:


> Terry Allan Hall said:
> 
> 
> > She was told, by me, prior to eating it, what was in the dressing, but chose to believe she was being lied to, until she found out she had not been...therefore, I don't feel my daughter (or anyone else, other than her) was at fault.
> ...


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## Kristina (Jul 8, 2010)

PETA.

People Eating Tasty Animals.


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## jackrat (Jul 8, 2010)

Now to get back on topic.When I trained my redfoots to tap dance and spin plates on sticks,I used a combination of sensory deprivation and fasting.I don't see anything unethical about it.


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## Itort (Jul 8, 2010)

We all know torts in general are ten times more responsive to stimulli than a PETA. Sensory deprivation does not work on PETA as they have no sense, just nonsense.


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## Nay (Jul 8, 2010)

Hi, this thread had me laughing quite a bit, (as I have a 15 yr old son ) I did think the dressing was a joke, but it sounds like it was real, and really if she was told,,,oh well...
I would be careful about inviting the boxies owner over , as if your son is anything like mine, if you approve of someone he won't. 
Those Peta people once ,during a special permit doe season around us in Quabbin water supply, set themselves up walking around with antlers.... They were asking to be shot and very lucky no one did. Smart folks. Another smart move they did near here, was to break into this ferret factory, (Not that I agree to that either) but they broke in and let all the ferrets go. Oh yeah those guys went on to be some dogs delicious lunch. I know ferrets can survive in the wild but these poor guys never left the cage. 
Ohhh, it makes me furious!!!!
Go Ted!!!

So anyway Terry, go on being super nice to the girlfriend and she will move on her merry way.

Na


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jul 8, 2010)

jackrat said:


> Now to get back on topic.When I trained my redfoots to tap dance and spin plates on sticks,I used a combination of sensory deprivation and fasting.I don't see anything unethical about it.



*Is that on YouTube, yet? *



Nay said:


> Hi, this thread had me laughing quite a bit, (as I have a 15 yr old son ) I did think the dressing was a joke, but it sounds like it was real, and really if she was told,,,oh well...
> I would be careful about inviting the boxies owner over , as if your son is anything like mine, if you approve of someone he won't.
> 
> *LOL...yeah, my wife and I were discussing that, but my daughter figures we'll all just be "subtle" and see how things progress...  *
> ...


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## Laura (Jul 8, 2010)

Ferrets Dont survive in the wild.. if they did.. we would be overun with them.. WHich is one of the arguments for the state of Calif not allowing them.. they will breed and take over and eat all the birds and poultry industry.. 
There are THOUSANDS living here.. many get loose.. there is No wild population of them running amuck, that I know of at least.. 
Legalize them already!
How is the Tort training going?


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## TylerStewart (Jul 8, 2010)

Angi said:


> I think her views are off, but most 18 year olds are. My husband the ultra conservative CFO was a democrat at 18.



I think many teenager's views from high school into and through college are "off." Then they get kicked out of their parent's house, get a job, start paying taxes and many of them turn conservative.


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## Tom (Jul 8, 2010)

TylerStewart said:


> Angi said:
> 
> 
> > I think her views are off, but most 18 year olds are. My husband the ultra conservative CFO was a democrat at 18.
> ...



I have seen this...a lot.

And Terry, Ted is one of my favorite people. I'd like to hang out with him as much as Richard Fife.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jul 8, 2010)

Tom said:


> TylerStewart said:
> 
> 
> > Angi said:
> ...



Fife, the herpetologist, is pretty cool, and I, too, would like to hang out w/ him.

Nugent, the draft-dodger/child-molester/racist/attention-wh*re/musical has-been...not so much.

But this is the Debatable section of the forum, so it's ok for us to "agree to disagree" on some things, right?


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## Tom (Jul 8, 2010)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > TylerStewart said:
> ...



Yes it is.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jul 9, 2010)

Tom said:


> Terry Allan Hall said:
> 
> 
> > Tom said:
> ...


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## firework (Jul 16, 2010)

I think "if animals should be kept by people as pets" is a more valid discussion than Ã¢â‚¬Å“If itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s alright pets learned something about their ownersÃ¢â‚¬Â, because the Ã¢â‚¬Å“exploitationÃ¢â‚¬Â comes from the very fact that the animals are intelligent beings, they will always learn about their environment. If their environment involves people, they will learn peopleÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s behavior and respond to it. 

I guess itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s hard to Ã¢â‚¬Å“exploitÃ¢â‚¬Â a plant, because it doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t think as much as animals do. ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s also hard NOT to Ã¢â‚¬Å“exploitÃ¢â‚¬Â a dog even given the greatest freedom, it just figures out.

This is the way I think about it: your tortoise trained YOU using a bell by rewarding you a big scene of tortoise gathering. They like the bell sound and want YOU do it for them at dinner.


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## moswen (Jul 16, 2010)

firework said:


> This is the way I think about it: your tortoise trained YOU using a bell by rewarding you a big scene of tortoise gathering. They like the bell sound and want YOU do it for them at dinner.



Oh man, I'm all over that. Animals are just smart beings (some more than others obviously). We look at it as "I'll teach them to do this because...." And the animals are probably thinking (something like) "I'll do this because that makes them give me something awesome" or however animals think... They may get a mental image of them standing up ontop of the world with a gold medal because they're awesome... who knows...


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## PeanutbuttER (Jul 16, 2010)

moswen said:


> They may get a mental image of them standing up ontop of the world with a gold medal because they're awesome... who knows...



Love it. I think that visual sums up perfectly how torts view themselves.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jul 16, 2010)

firework said:


> I think "if animals should be kept by people as pets" is a more valid discussion than Ã¢â‚¬Å“If itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s alright pets learned something about their ownersÃ¢â‚¬Â, because the Ã¢â‚¬Å“exploitationÃ¢â‚¬Â comes from the very fact that the animals are intelligent beings, they will always learn about their environment. If their environment involves people, they will learn peopleÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s behavior and respond to it.
> 
> I guess itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s hard to Ã¢â‚¬Å“exploitÃ¢â‚¬Â a plant, because it doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t think as much as animals do. ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s also hard NOT to Ã¢â‚¬Å“exploitÃ¢â‚¬Â a dog even given the greatest freedom, it just figures out.
> 
> This is the way I think about it: your tortoise trained YOU using a bell by rewarding you a big scene of tortoise gathering. They like the bell sound and want YOU do it for them at dinner.



LOL


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## dannomite (Jul 20, 2010)

When I was a kid playing outside in the neighborhood, my dad would whistle really loud when it was dinner time and my brother and I went running home excited to eat dinner.....this whole time I didn't realize they were "conditioning" me.....how cruel of them...no wonder I salivate when someone whistles now...lol this thread was very entertaining!


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## pugsandkids (Jul 20, 2010)

I agree, an entertaining thread! I was surprised at how long a seemingly silly question (to me at least) thread went on. Now I get it ;D

I have a 14 year old son, if some girl showed up at the house and criticized my animals and how they are treated...Well, it'd be very, very hard to behave myself. But I know all to well that if you say no, teenagers hear "Better do it more!" (at least thats how I was!)


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jul 22, 2010)

Well, it seems the teen romance has hit a serious snag...the other night we all went out for dinner, he ordered a double-cheese burger, she loudly told him no lips that touched meat would ever touch hers, he ate said cheese burger anyway, she gave him the cold shoulder for the rest of the evening and when he took her home she slammed the door to his car...repeat - SLAMMED THE DOOR TO HIS CAR!!! 

He really LOVES his 2003 Dodge Neon... 

This morning I told That Other Gal to remember to praise said 2003 Dodge Neon lavishly and often!


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## pugsandkids (Jul 22, 2010)

I can't believe she'd behave that way while you are all out for dinner! She's high on drama, hopefully she'll outgrow it. Meanwhile he's probably learning a lot about what traits he does NOT want in a SO. Good luck with That Other Gal


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 22, 2010)

Well, your son's girlfriend sounds like a complete *****! There's absolutely nothing exploitative in you ringing a bell so your tortoises know when it's dinner time, maybe if you forced your tortoises to make you dinner every night and then rang a bell to tell you it was ready it would be 
I've been a vegetarian for about 9 years now and it's people like your son's g/f who give us a bad name! I don't eat meat products or wear leather/fur because I beleive it's cruel and unnecessary, the only real argument for eating meat is that it tastes nice and that's not enough for me. I can't justify killing or making an animal suffer for my own pleasure, therefore I'm veggie. Having said this I have no problem with people who eat meat, and certainly wouldn't be rude to someone about it, if you want to eat that bacon sandwich eat it, if you want to eat that bacon sandwich sat on my knee, eat it, i just don't want any!


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