# Time to change or am I being unreasonable?



## alfiethetortoise (Dec 8, 2009)

Ok, i realise this is completely not tortoise buisness, but i really am at a dead loss at what to do..... 

So, some of you may know i have a 19 month old daughter. I was with her father for four and a half years, became pregnant, and then basically he broke up with me because i wouldn't consider not having the baby.

Things were going well with contact between Ava and her Dad after an 8 month period of no contact, and him saying he was coming one month and turning up 5 months later. Ava visits his parents weekly for a few hours, unsupervised but i dont have a problem with this (it was built up gradually). 

After the 8 months of no contact, he said that he would now see ava every 6 weeks, and i would take her every other 6 weeks (a 400mile round trip) to make it fair. So, six weeks later, and low and behold he cant see Ava. He doesnt tell me this untill i have driven 200 miles, and its the day before. A vauge argument occurs, and i somehow manage to leave it.

Now, i asked him if he will be seeing Ava over the holiday, reminding him politely that it is his turn to come here. He says 'no, but its not a problem'. Not a problem for who? and that 'you already got what you wanted she is seeing my parents every week' as if this is some kind of substitution for him not maintaining any contact.

So this time it turns into a full scale argument. Our unofficial agreement is that i will not go to the CSA or give him a hard time, so long as he is consistent in his visits. Now Ava is getting older (19 months) i feel this is becoming more of an issue as she will begin to understand who he is etc. So in a nutshell, i have told him that if he does not see her over the holiday, or cannot commit to seeing her soon after, then i will go to the CSA. I have threatened this before, but never actually gone through with it.

I just cant do this every 6 weeks. It is too much, and i dread every holiday will turn into an argument. He said he will call to discuss this properly, but he isn't 'free' untill tomorrow (this happened yesterday) so again it seems that he isn't really that bothered and doesn't think that its that important. He is only really bothered because he pays Ã‚Â£40 a month and has been working for over a year full time while doing a part time course. If i go to the CSA he will be paying this a week, which he claims is unreasonable and cant afford it. I try not to confuse the issues of contact and maintience but if he isn't going to see Ava then as fas as i can see he is having his cake and eating it...

Do you think i'm being over dramatic? And unreasonable? It's been almost 20 months since Ava was born.

Perhaps now you will see why i do not give out relationship advice!!

Thanks


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## Yvonne G (Dec 8, 2009)

I have never been in your situation or known someone in your situation, so my words won't hold much water for you.

Who moved 200 miles away after the split? If he's the one who moved away then I think it should be him who drives the miles for every visit. If you are the one who moved, then you should be the one who drives. But either way, if he really wanted to have time with his daughter, he would find a way to do it whether it meant he had to drive or not.

I'm guessing that you didn't have legal advice after the split or legal conditions about custody?

I think you are holding all the cards. If he wants to see the baby, he needs to do so. But in my opinion, you should have a court order defining who's responsibility is what.


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## alfiethetortoise (Dec 8, 2009)

Sorry Yvonne i should probably clarify a few things...

It was him who moved when Ava was four months old. He moved to the city where (coincidentally) i went to uni so i still have friends living there including Ava's godparents. Custody wise, he did not turn up when i went to get Ava registered. In the UK if you are unmarried the father has to be present to have his name registered and any woman cannot simply do it if he is not there. So, in short, he actually has no legal rights as his name is not on the birth certificate. I have full custody, but have always said that he, and his family, can see her whenever they want and i will not stop them.


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## Maggie Cummings (Dec 8, 2009)

I think it's really simple... you go on about your life, when he wants to see her he will call you. If he doesn't call you , you don't call him. I personally think that if he loved her and wanted to be a part of her life he would act like it. You can't or shouldn't force him. It's he who is losing out...she won't know him nor will she know that she is missing out...of course I am simplifying it, and I am not living it with all the emotion involved...


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## Madkins007 (Dec 8, 2009)

My nickel's worth is that he basically told you his opinion when he broke up with you for having the baby. He seems to want nothing to do with it. He did not register it (which sounds odd to my American ears), he does not seem to have seen it, etc.

I would suggest that you have done what you can and I applaud you for keeping his folks in the loop and trying so hard to involve him.

What I would do would be to:
- If you need the financial support, get him to meet his fair share legally (but since he did not want the baby, these will not be given willingly and you'll probably fight it for years.)
- Let his parents know your thoughts and concerns. What do they think? If they are on your side, let them deal with him. 
- Stop working so hard to involve him. He may just need some time, and you need to go on with your life. Send him a nice card from her, or with a photo of her on holidays, but not much else.


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## alfiethetortoise (Dec 8, 2009)

maggie3fan said:


> I think it's really simple... you go on about your life, when he wants to see her he will call you. If he doesn't call you , you don't call him.



How long do i leave it not to call him? I barely talk to him as it is, once a month, and even then there is stuff he should probably know that he doesn't get told....



Madkins007 said:


> - If you need the financial support, get him to meet his fair share legally (but since he did not want the baby, these will not be given willingly and you'll probably fight it for years.)
> - Let his parents know your thoughts and concerns. What do they think? If they are on your side, let them deal with him.
> - Stop working so hard to involve him. He may just need some time, and you need to go on with your life. Send him a nice card from her, or with a photo of her on holidays, but not much else.




I pay for Ava using mostly savings of my own. i dont not have spare cash, and though i could say i don't 'need' any financial support and get on my soap box the reality is that i could do with help. I have always said that him seeing her is more important than money and so just accepted the situation as a dead loss. However, if he is not going to be seeing her then he has to pay (gosh that sounds awfully bitter and resentfull when i write that out!)

I have tried giving cards, photos etc. I save drawings for him that she does at playgroup. He seems to be very good when he actually turns up, interested etc, it's just getting him to turn up in the first place....


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## Yvonne G (Dec 8, 2009)

Madkins makes a good point. The father didn't want you to have the baby. You should just let it go at that and realize that the baby doesn't have a father. Thank goodness his parents aren't like him because having grandparents is pretty special. I vote for just leave him out of her life.


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## Shelly (Dec 8, 2009)

Is he paying support?


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## Stephanie Logan (Dec 8, 2009)

Wow, Madkins, you'd make a good custody arbitrator.

I think it is very sad that Ava's father is excluding himself from her life and he will regret it, a little or a lot, now or eventually. She is a part of him and when he grows up and realizes what he's thrown away it will hurt him. 

My advice is, be open to him visiting Ava, but don't set it up for him. Let him do it. I would think that with his parents nearby, he will see her when he sees them. Ava will have questions about her Daddy and you should probably seek a counselor's help in giving honest but not "heavy" answers to your toddler. She will also love her Daddy whether he sees her or not, because that's what kids do, and it does not mean she loves you any less. Don't do anything to turn her away from loving her dad, because that will almost certainly backfire against you (not that you would--you sound very mature and gracious in the face of rather harsh realities).

Keeping the ties between Ava and her grandparents will promote eventual contact with the father if and when he realizes how much she means to him. If he does not change, you'll have the tough job of explaining to your toddler, then youngster, then teenager, why her dad cannot make time to have a relationship with her. Maybe you'll meet a nice man eventually who will be a caring and attentive stepdad, which would be great since all kids really do need both a mother figure and father figure in their lives for optimum emotional growth.


I don't think you should allow the dad to skip out on his financial responsibilities. Just because you opposed an abortion doesn't mean you made that baby by yourself. If he had sex without a condom, he is equally responsible for the outcome. You may not need the money now; toddlers are cheap. Adolescents and teenagers, even unspoiled ones, are not. Try to keep the custody/visitation issues completely separate from the financial support issues. He should help pay for her upbringing because he is her father. Period.

Good luck. I am sure you've caught on to the fact that children win your heart completely from the second they're born. You will NEVER be the same as you were before Ava, and you don't want to be. The downside is that, for the rest of your life, the mere thought of something bad happening to her will freeze your heart with fear, but her presence in your life will give you joy and satisfaction beyond what you ever thought humanly possible.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Dec 8, 2009)

I am sorry about your predicament... Hits home for me because this situation looks just like what is about to happen to my sister and her kid (they have said together so far... but I am sure within the next two weeks they will split) 

... If i get any great insight from the up coming events I will be sure to share with u


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## Maggie Cummings (Dec 8, 2009)

I agree with Stephanie...that's good advice.


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## chadk (Dec 8, 2009)

Get full legal custody
Get a legal agreement on support.
Visits are only by appointment on his dime and time
Don't shack up with losers....


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## katesgoey (Dec 8, 2009)

I realize you are in a different country with your own custody laws, but I used to work in the Child Custody section of the District Attorney's office and have seen many situations like yours so I agree with Chad - you need to make sure you have "full legal custody" or the equivalent in writing, a legal agreement of child support and a written visitation order. 

When you say every six weeks - do you mean that he keeps her for six weeks, then you do or do you mean he only sees her for a day every six weeks? For a child so young it is imperative that there is a written custody and visitation order to rely on and ensure regular visits - if the father is interested in regular visits and if not, then to ensure you have the legal rights of each parent in writing so he can't be haphazardly entering and leaving her life and yours. It is in her best interest to have regularly scheduled visits with her father at this young age, but you can't force him to visit her - if he does want to see her, you can ensure that visits are planned and not sporadic through a visitation agreement/order. I wish the best for you and Ava and hope you can work things out so he's either consistently in or out of the picture to give Ava some consistency while she's young and developing her personality.


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## dmmj (Dec 9, 2009)

I couldn't imagine fathering a child and then not wanting to be a part of it's life, I simply can't.


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## alfiethetortoise (Dec 9, 2009)

Stephanie Logan said:


> My advice is, be open to him visiting Ava, but don't set it up for him. Let him do it.
> 
> I don't think you should allow the dad to skip out on his financial responsibilities. Just because you opposed an abortion doesn't mean you made that baby by yourself. If he had sex without a condom, he is equally responsible for the outcome. You may not need the money now; toddlers are cheap. Adolescents and teenagers, even unspoiled ones, are not. Try to keep the custody/visitation issues completely separate from the financial support issues. He should help pay for her upbringing because he is her father. Period.



Thanks for the advice. I worry that by letting him dictate when he will see Ava will lead to long periods of time with no contact and that this could end up to be distressing/more harmfull to Ava in the long run. If he doesn't see her, in a way she doesn't really know anything else. If he sees her once every eight months eventually she is going to grow up wondering why he has so little time for her ect.

I also worry that if i seek real financial help then it could potentially make more issues because he could easily end up resenting Ava more than he already does. At the moment, having a child for him, means that his life has absolutely not changed. He maintains little contact, does not provide any care, and pays so little money that it doesn't really make him undestand the real financial issues around having a child.



katesgoey said:


> I realize you are in a different country with your own custody laws, but I used to work in the Child Custody section of the District Attorney's office and have seen many situations like yours so I agree with Chad - you need to make sure you have "full legal custody" or the equivalent in writing, a legal agreement of child support and a written visitation order.
> 
> When you say every six weeks - do you mean that he keeps her for six weeks, then you do or do you mean he only sees her for a day every six weeks?



I have full custody, it is automatic in the UK when you are named as the mother on the birth certificate. Child support is sorted though an agncy called the CSA, but at the moment he sends the money without interference (this means he pays considerably less than he should be paying according to the CSA)

He is supposed to see her every half term, thats evry 6-8 weeks here depending on how holidays fall, for a few hours on one day. He has never had contact with ava unsupervised and has never had her overnight. I once suggested he could take her to the nearby park for 10 mins when she got her shoes and asked to go, but he said he didn't think he could cope....



dmmj said:


> I couldn't imagine fathering a child and then not wanting to be a part of it's life, I simply can't.



This is my biggest issue. After four and a half years of being together his behaviour towars ava is completely inconsistent with his behaviour in all the time before. And however much i try i just cannot understand the mentality of knowing he has a child, and doing nothing absolutely about it. He has turned into someone i dont know, and i do not like the person he has become for obvious reasons.


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## stells (Dec 9, 2009)

Go to the CSA.... it may be different over there but even if he didn't want the baby i'm afraid over here its tough luck... the baby is here so its his duty to cough up... and thats what the CSA will make him do... either that or they will take him to court....

As for the visits... i would just leave it and tell him to call and give you notice if he wants to see Ava... but he will have to come to you.... Ava will make her own mind up a few years down the line and at least you can know you tried everything in your power to allow her Dad access...


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## Yvonne G (Dec 9, 2009)

alfiethetortoise said:


> dmmj said:
> 
> 
> > I couldn't imagine fathering a child and then not wanting to be a part of it's life, I simply can't.
> ...



You have forgotten about the fact that he wanted you to have an abortion. He didn't want the baby and its obvious he still doesn't...and no amount of you talking and encouraging him is going to change that mind set. Quit trying and try to give your little girl the best life you can without a father in it.


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## dmmj (Dec 9, 2009)

I know abortion is a touchy subject but I have 2 friends who did not want to have their baby (they wanted the GF to abort) and now that the baby is here they could not imagine life without their kids.


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## Shalon (Dec 9, 2009)

alfiethetortoise said:


> He is supposed to see her every half term, thats evry 6-8 weeks here depending on how holidays fall, for a few hours on one day. He has never had contact with ava unsupervised and has never had her overnight. I once suggested he could take her to the nearby park for 10 mins when she got her shoes and asked to go, but he said he didn't think he could cope



I might be reading this wrong but he is supposed to see her a couple of hours once every 6-8 weeks?
For a child that old every 6 to 8 weeks isn't any different then every 6 to 8 months. They don't really understand time the same way adults do.
I would go to court, get the support that Ava is owed from the man who fathered her and make it so he does not have visitation at all. He does not want it and has no desire to see his daughter. It is going to be worse for her in the long run if he starts showing up every couple of months then if he doesn't show up at all.


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## alfiethetortoise (Dec 9, 2009)

Your probably right. However, Ava is a very bright child and has a sharp memory. I see my best friend from uni every 6 weeks and the past few times Ava has had recollection of who she is (we live 200miles away). So i would beg to differ.

I guess it's one of those, i'm dammed if i do i'm dammed if i dont. If i go to the CSA he has made it clear he will cut all ties with Ava and make things difficult. If he maintains the contact then i stil carry on with basically no financial support. If i allow him to pay more money unoffically without the CSA on the basis that 'one day maybe in the future' he will maintain better contact with Ava i have to accept this could never happen and in the meantime it is Ava missing out financially. I cannot live my life on 'one day maybe' and i think that it is unreasonable for Ava to later accept this as a 'good' reason for lack of contact with her father.

Perhaps the only consilation in all of this is that eventually when Ava is old enough to ask, i can honestly hold up my hand and say that i tried my best, and it just didn't work out ....


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## katesgoey (Dec 9, 2009)

Just wanted to point out that child support isn't about him or you - it's the child's right to be supported by both parents. Ava deserves the child support from him and it really shouldn't be something to ponder whether or not you should get it - its her money for her care and will help you provide what she needs (or save it for college). If he is threatening to "make it difficult" then get the custody/support order with a restraining order in it to keep him away from you and Ava. That's a usual ploy to threaten the other parent. Don't buy into it and get the child support for Ava. I understand you want her to have her father, but you simply can't force him to change or to want her. Since his parents visit her, he will probably always have some contact with her anyway so focus on getting what Ava needs - she'll figure out who her father is and whether or not she maintains a relationship as she gets older. Best wishes to you.


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## Jacqui (Dec 15, 2009)

First off, my opinion is to quit worry so much about his wants and needs. First priority is the child. He may not have wanted the child, but he was half of creating her. You should have him paying his fair share.

My first husband, the father of my four kids, really did not visit them much as small children. When we had divorced he acted like he wanted lots of time with them and made a big deal out of getting the visitation time he wanted. For me, no big deal, so I gave it to him. However he never took them for the weeks in the summer, no holidays, and his weekend visits were an occassional few hours every few months. I learned to never expect him until he showed up at the door. To never plan on him having them long enough for me to even go shopping. I also allowed him to use my home with the belief he might visit them longer or more often. We also invited him to holiday dinners.

He never paid child support on time, but I grew to just think of the money when it came and any amount it might be as blessings but not expectations. He still has a rather large bill years after the kids became of age. He was suppose to pay half of medical bills, but he didn't and I chose to do without rather than fight about it.

Basicly I let him be as much of a father as he was comfortable being or perhaps was actually able to be. Not everybody who can give sperm can be a father (and the other way around too). Your guy may be one of those.

As they grew older, he started being more of a father. Today he is much more there for them then ever, but he is still not able to be what I think of as a good father. He is however, growing steadily into the best father he *can* be.

Do what is right for your child and yourself. Legally solidify your rights. Make him financially responsible for the child, but don't force him to be what you think he should be as a father. In time he may get there or he may never grow into the role any more than he already has. 

Remember his not wanting to be a father does not make him bad, it just makes him, him. Keep lines open, but don't push visits, that will just make him run the other way.

I also would be honest with the child. Don't sugar coat what is happening, but try to give information as it is age appropiate. Also don't in any way down the father to the child.

Just my thoughts and my experience, but each of us must do what in our hearts feels right...and then live with the results. Unfortunately relationships and parenthood come with no rule books, no right or wrong way, everything comes in shades of greys and constantly changes...sorta like raising tortoises, huh?

Good luck.


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## webskipper (Dec 15, 2009)

Make him do the traveling, etc. Keep his folks in the loop, not him.

I recently found myself doting on my friend's kids, what the h am I doing? I can still find a younger woman and try tying the knot once more. It's been safer to just have pets as children.

If only you were closer, I could dote over Ava and your Torts, for food and a pint. :}


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