# Help, Mr. Blink can't open his eyes!!!



## Amanda81 (Sep 25, 2014)

Today I noticed one the leopards eyes are closed. I took them out for their daily sun and I noticed he wasn't really motoring around and usually he is one of the more active ones. When I gathered them up to bring in his eyes was closed and he really didn't move, I thought, u silly thing, you slept thru your outside time. So I bring them in and put them in their soak, he is still asleep, I thought, that's cute, he is going to hold his head up and get his nap finished. Well as I'm taking them out and drying them off, he starts fighting but his eyes are still closed. So it hits me, he can't open them. Yesterday he was fine, completely normal Mr. Blink. Right now I have a MVB that I'm using for a basking light and a plain old under the cabinet fluorescent to light entire enclosure. The humidity is 80% and the current temp is 90. The other 4 seem fine, no noticeable issues with them. What have I done wrong? How can I fix it and him????!!!!!


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## Amanda81 (Sep 25, 2014)

I just took these. He is really lethargic too. He just kinda limp, didn't resist my handling him as he usually does.


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## ascott (Sep 25, 2014)

Well, is there crust crap around the eye lid seam? Or are they closed because of pressure and are swollen shut?


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## ascott (Sep 25, 2014)

How close is the MVB to the surface of the tortoise? How long have you had the MVB in use for them? Was this tort ever in any other enclosure? Is the tort in with the other tortoise in the same enclosure?


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## Jodie (Sep 25, 2014)

Oh no. I hope someone has some ideas for you. What substrate are you using? Poor little guy. Where did you get him, and do you know how he was started? Dry or humid?


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## Amanda81 (Sep 25, 2014)

ascott said:


> Well, is there crust crap around the eye lid seam? Or are they closed because of pressure and are swollen shut?


No crust no pressure no swelling.


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## Amanda81 (Sep 25, 2014)

So I just caught him with them open. He opened them, rubbed the left one w his front leg, closed them back and hasn't opened them back up yet. I would think that's irritation from the way he is acting.


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## Amanda81 (Sep 25, 2014)

ascott said:


> How close is the MVB to the surface of the tortoise? How long have you had the MVB in use for them? Was this tort ever in any other enclosure? Is the tort in with the other tortoise in the same enclosure?


MVB is 12" from top of their shell. I have used that same bulb for about two months now. No they have never been anywhere except their indoor enclosure and their outdoor enclosure. They don't mingle w my sullys either. The other 4 that's housed w him aren't showing any kinds of issues, yet anyways.


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## Amanda81 (Sep 25, 2014)

Jodie said:


> Oh no. I hope someone has some ideas for you. What substrate are you using? Poor little guy. Where did you get him, and do you know how he was started? Dry or humid?


I use a layered substrate, damp Eco earth topped w moistened reptibark. I got him from a breeder that starts them right. Good diet, daily soaks, etc. like I say, he was A-OK yesterday.


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## Jodie (Sep 25, 2014)

I got nothing. Sure hope he is ok. Maybe he just got something in his eyes outside? I would do extra soaks and consider a vet visit, if not perked back up tomorrow. Hope some of the experts will have more info or advice than i have.


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## AmRoKo (Sep 25, 2014)

He might have an eye infection. If he isn't better by tomorrow I would take him to the vet and have his eyes looked at. If you get a chance to see his eyes see if there are any whitish spots in them.


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## Amanda81 (Sep 25, 2014)

I haven't noticed any discharge. Earlier he opened them and rubbed them on his leg and then closed them back. That kinda makes me want to lean toward them having some type of irritation and that's y he is holding them shut. I have some antibiotic eye drops and I started those, course I checked to make sure they are "tort approved" before I did it. I'm almost wondering if my temps are fluctuating to much and it's started to get to them. Their nite temps are usually low 80's but during the day the basking light jumps them up to mid 90's, I am keeping close eye on everyone. I have noticed a difference in my sulcata hatchlings over the last couple day too, which their temps do the same thing, and now this, I have something wrong, I just need to figure out what it is. 
They are getting a varied, healthy diet
Daily soaks
An hour of sun everyday
I don't let the leopards and sulcata mingle. 
The humidity is 85% at least (always), it usually goes up to 95-99% after I mist the Repti Bark every morning. 
They have fresh water available at all times
I mist their shells couple times through out day
I wash their food and water dishes everyday (water dish multiple times some days) with the hottest water I can bare on my skin. 
Their temps jump up and down but are never below 80. 
Now I do the exact same thing with both the leopards and the sulcata, and I am noticing things in both. Like Arizona, my sulcata, she is my eating machine, she is the first to the food and last to leave, but here lately, last couple days, she has been nibbling, she is eating but not like usual. Alfie, sulcata, he has been digging down through the bark to the Eco earth and sleeping A LOT. He is nibbling about the food dish but he has always kinda been a slow eater. I have noticed a little CLEAR, THIN discharge from his nose, not constant, just here and there over last 2 days. I have tried not to freak out about this because well, that's what I do best, but now with the eye issue, I'm flipping out. 
Any and all advise and/or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. 
Thanks!!!!


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## Amanda81 (Sep 25, 2014)

Jodie said:


> I got nothing. Sure hope he is ok. Maybe he just got something in his eyes outside? I would do extra soaks and consider a vet visit, if not perked back up tomorrow. Hope some of the experts will have more info or advice than i have.


I think it was actually going on before we made it outside cause he did nothing while we was outside and usually he is the one that's all over the place, nibbling on the grass blades and clover but today he slept, literally, slept the whole time, well I thought he was sleeping


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## mike taylor (Sep 25, 2014)

Contact Tom or Yvonne on this .


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## Robertchrisroph (Sep 25, 2014)

@Yvonne G @Tom


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## Jodie (Sep 25, 2014)

Amanda81 said:


> I think it was actually going on before we made it outside cause he did nothing while we was outside and usually he is the one that's all over the place, nibbling on the grass blades and clover but today he slept, literally, slept the whole time, well I thought he was sleeping


@Neal may be able to help. Hope someone who can stops by.


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## Tom (Sep 25, 2014)

How long have you had him? 
How was he started as a hatchling?
How does his plastron feel and look?


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## Amanda81 (Sep 26, 2014)

Tom said:


> How long have you had him?
> How was he started as a hatchling?
> How does his plastron feel and look?


He was started like recommended. Daily soaks, varied diet, he is in great shape, I got him probably around a month ago. I got 2, both were active, good eaters, shells in perfect shape. 
His plastron is firm but not stone hard, in the middle it has some give but it's still firm to touch there too. 
This morning during their soak he opened his eyes and had them open on and off for most of the 20 minute soak but he kept closing them back. I am starting to think it's going on w them all because this morning, nobody touched their greens. Usually it's a pig out but today they didn't bother. I'm going to give them some mazuri, see if I can get them to eat that.


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## Amanda81 (Sep 26, 2014)

This is him this morning. He did seem to have more spunk in his soak this morning. 
I also turned up the temp in their enclosure. The cool side is around 88 and the hot side is at 93, what would be considered to hot? I was thinking maybe the others aren't eating cause they are hot? Maybe?


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## Tom (Sep 26, 2014)

Hmm... What is your night low temp and how are you maintaining that?

What were the temps like while they were outdoors sunning?

Can we see a pic of the indoor and outdoor enclosures? Nothing obvious is jumping out at me yet.


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## Amanda81 (Sep 26, 2014)

T


Tom said:


> Hmm... What is your night low temp and how are you maintaining that?
> 
> What were the temps like while they were outdoors sunning?
> 
> Can we see a pic of the indoor and outdoor enclosures? Nothing obvious is jumping out at me yet.


well before all this started, their nite temps were 80 cool side, 83-85 hot side and I maintain the temp w a CHE attached to thermostat. 
Now that it seems their all sick, I'm keeping temps no lower then 90 day and night. 
Wednesday I took them out to sun, they were fine. The overall weather was cool but I temped the ground, sun areas, rocks, concrete slabs, shade area, etc before I brought them out and everything was 80 or above. I was concerned about the occasional breeze we was getting cause i felt it was chilly and I did cut their outside time short. I brought them back in and into a warm soak they went. I stood right there and watch them, making sure no one stayed in a shady spot to long.


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## Amanda81 (Sep 26, 2014)

This is the outside enclosure. Wednesday when I brought them out it was just like this, completely sunny except in the shade spots. The other half behind me is the exact same but I have it sectioned off for the quads. 
(That's Marv on the outside there, he was trying to get around to see what I was up too. Lol)


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## Tom (Sep 26, 2014)

I'm coming up blank Amanda. Seems like the tortoise might have eaten something toxic, or been exposed to some fumes or something. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful. We've eliminated all the more common and obvious things like temps, hatchling history and coil bulbs.


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## Jodie (Sep 26, 2014)

Please keep us updated. I hope they all feel better soon. Is Mr. Blink doing any better?


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## AmRoKo (Sep 26, 2014)

Tom said:


> I'm coming up blank Amanda. *Seems like the tortoise might have eaten something toxic, or been exposed to some fumes or something*. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful. We've eliminated all the more common and obvious things like temps, hatchling history and coil bulbs.



That's what it was starting to sound like to me also since all of them are now acting sick. Please do keep updates coming. Sorry I can't be any help here.


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## ascott (Sep 26, 2014)

So you say you acquired this one with a second one right? How long was their quarantine before you put those two in with your others? Did you house these two together as a pair before adding in with others? You said the warm side was in 80'sthe to 90's...what basking spot did you offer? They should have a cool dry side that has a bit warmer area that then runs itself into the hottest basking spot..the basking spot should be 100-110....


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## Amanda81 (Sep 26, 2014)

Tom said:


> I'm coming up blank Amanda. Seems like the tortoise might have eaten something toxic, or been exposed to some fumes or something. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful. We've eliminated all the more common and obvious things like temps, hatchling history and coil bulbs.


I will check their outside pen tomorrow for any type of weed that might be toxic. I checked it before I put it there but perhaps I missed something. It's just so strange that Wednesday when their lights went off they were fine and Thursday he was so bad off.


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## Amanda81 (Sep 26, 2014)

So here is where we are as of now.
I am doing 30 minute soak twice a day, a mixture of antibiotic, vitamins, and electrolytes.
This morning Mr. Blink was just lifeless, I gave them their food, picked him up and he was just limp, I thought he was dead, he finally moved his leg. Of course he wouldn't eat, and no one else did either, I offered them some mazuri, dent nibbled a bite or two and went back to his spot, Duke and Ivory ate enough that I was satisfied but Mr. Blink and Wednesday, nothing. So I called the vet. It's Friday, their booked up. So I resorted to what I know. I went, got some antibiotics (it's says cattle use only but I have used it for many other animals in the past) I got a vitamin supplement and an electrolyte supplement. Came straight home and got started. Everybody, including the Sudans, are getting soaked twice a day for 30 minutes. I dissolve the antibiotic,vitamin and electrolyte in the warm water and soak em. Now here is what happen. 
Mr.Blink set there holding his head up, eyes closed, never fought process. 
After about 15 minutes the other leopards started their water aerobics as I call it. Ivory,Duke, and Dent pooed. 
The quads (except alfie) enjoyed theirs about 15 minutes and started their aerobics as well. Alfie started his aerobics as soon as he went in the water. Now usually they don't poo in their water but this time alfie did, but this time I also noticed he had a lot of gas and he would have to jerk his whole front half in his shell and a little turd, would come out, when he was done we had 4 little what I call rabbit turds floating in the water. Usually they poo a nice strand turd, never have I seen them poo these little rabbit turds. I also noticed a little tiny bug on them, it's very small, and brown or red in color. So after I notice these little bugs I go back to the leopards and look at them, they have them too. What the H$&@?! 
Now this evening I feed them again. This time I take their weeds and grass, chop it up real fine, mix it w mazuri and give it to them. The quads eat fine. I am feeling better about that, Arizona still ain't 100% but she ate better them she did this AM. The leopards, Duke and Ivory ate enough that I am comfortable with, their eyes are open, no wet noses. Dent nibbled, and went back to his spot, his eyes are open and no wet nose. Ok. Wednesday wouldn't eat, I had to work to get her eyes open, and she didn't keep em open long but no wet nose. She was kinda laying around but when I took her from her spot, she got mad and rushed, I would say ran, back to it. And Mr. Blink, lifeless. I attempted multiple times to get him to eat and he just layed his little head down. I finally set him over under the basking light (he felt cold to my touch) and after a little bit he he started slinging his head to his left and biting, like he was attempting to chew something. He then started stretching his neck out and doing the head slinging and biting. He would do this a couple times then lay his head back down. I checked to see if there was any of those bugs on him, perhaps they were aggravating him, but there wasn't anything on him. So lights are now out and he is still doing the whole head slinging biting thing here and there. 
So I am crossing my fingers and praying that things get better.


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## Amanda81 (Sep 26, 2014)

So I have some questions. 
1-I spot clean their enclosures daily. I pick up any food particles that's left, I even go through the bark and try to get up all the turds I see. What are these little bugs I am seeing? How did I end up w them? What do I need to do to get rid of them? 
2- I seriously try and follow the care sheet for raising leopards and sulcata, I soak them, I give a varied diet, mostly grass and weeds, maybe once every two weeks I will throw in a handful of spring mix or romaine, just to change it up. Twice a week I mix calcium and multivitamin supplement in a couple moistened maurzi pellets and give them. Unless weather stops us, we go outside for at least an hour each day for some sun rays and natural grazing. I spot clean their enclosures everyday, I clean their food and water dishes w the hottest water I can stand everyday (somedays the water dish gets cleaned multiple times). I keep humidity levels above 80 at all times. I keep everyone separated, no mingling ever. So now I have a bunch of sick little guys, what am I doing wrong? Where their temps were jumping, could that have caused it? I mean the temps don't go below 80, but like it will be 82, the basking light will get it up, 95-98, so I will turn light off till temps drop down and them turn light back on, that cycle might happen 3-4 time a day, could me doing this have made them ill? I am really at a lose. I feel really bad that my little ones are now sick, from the way Mr. Blink looks, I might have possibly killed him. This is terrible. If anyone has suggestions or advise, ease let me have it, I have to do something better, I need to fix something. Thanks in advance guys!!


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## AmRoKo (Sep 26, 2014)

The little brown/red bugs sound like they might just be wood mites, they shouldn't bother your torts I mean other than crawling on them from time to time. Also you need to try to be calm and relax try not to get to stressed I know that can be hard because your babies are sick but stressing out to much wont help you or them. To me it sounds like with their care you are doing a very good job I have no idea what could be causing your babies problems, I hope they and Mr. Blink get better.


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## Amanda81 (Sep 26, 2014)

AmRoKo said:


> The little brown/red bugs sound like they might just be wood mites, they shouldn't bother your torts I mean other than crawling on them from time to time. Also you need to try to be calm and relax try not to get to stressed I know that can be hard because your babies are sick but stressing out to much wont help you or them. To me it sounds like with their care you are doing a very good job I have no idea what could be causing your babies problems, I hope they and Mr. Blink get better.


Wood mites makes sense, I never had them when I only had Eco earth. I will keep an eye on them, make sure they aren't bothering the baby's. And thanks for the advise, it is truly frustrating, Mr Blink looks so sad and I can't do anything to make it better for him. It's also some what shocking cause they get so bad so fast. Wednesday when they went to bed, everything was fine and then the next day he's on deaths door, I'm hoping tomorrow is going to b a better day for him.


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## Jodie (Sep 26, 2014)

So sorry this is happening to your little ones. I have been there so understand your frustration and helplessness. I do not see anything you are doing wrong either. Sure hope things turn around for you.


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## Amanda81 (Sep 26, 2014)

Well I went in to check on my little guys and Mr Blinks was dead. 
I'm crossing fingers and really hoping his sibling Wednesday doesn't get any worse. She is very small but she is still spunky, she was walking about picking a new sleep spot while I was removing Mr Blink so let's hope her spunkyness will hang in there.


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## Jodie (Sep 26, 2014)

So sorry to hear this.


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## ascott (Sep 26, 2014)

> So you say you acquired this one with a second one right? How long was their quarantine before you put those two in with your others? Did you house these two together as a pair before adding in with others? You said the warm side was in 80'sthe to 90's...what basking spot did you offer? They should have a cool dry side that has a bit warmer area that then runs itself into the hottest basking spot..the basking spot should be 100-110....


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## Amanda81 (Sep 26, 2014)

Jodie said:


> So sorry to hear this.


Thank you. BTW, yours in your avatar pic are adorable. I wish one of mine was that white. Duke and Ivory have some white coming in here and there, so I'm waiting to see what they turn out like.


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## Jodie (Sep 26, 2014)

Amanda81 said:


> Thank you. BTW, yours in your avatar pic are adorable. I wish one of mine was that white. Duke and Ivory have some white coming in here and there, so I'm waiting to see what they turn out like.


Thanks.


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## Robertchrisroph (Sep 27, 2014)




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## AmRoKo (Sep 27, 2014)

Oh man, I'm so sorry about Mr. Blink, This is very sad I wonder what is going on and what was the cause? It is indeed scary how one day they can be totally fine and next seem like they are on deaths doorstep.


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## Amanda81 (Sep 27, 2014)

Well I got up this morning and buried Mr Blink. 
I then started the daily grind. I made up their medicated soaks, and soaked everybody. Everybody was very active, doing their water aerobics, everyone's eyes were open, everyone made a poo except Wednesday. 
So after their soaks I gave them some food. Grass and weeds mixed w mazuri. I really just wasn't satisfied w anyone's appetite. So I did it, I broke down. I got in the car ran to the nearest grocery store and bought a bag of spring mix and some romaine. I came home, chopped it all up into bite size pieces and gave it to them. 
The Quads ate like champs. I am not seeing anything from any of them that worries me. I think I might have over reacted about them being sick. (I do that from time to time) Just to be safe I'm going to continue their medicated soaks tho. 
All the leopards ate except Wednesday, Mr Blinks sibling. Duke and Ivory have been doing ok and Dent was kinda worring me yesterday but he is doing much better today. I am starting to think maybe Mr Blink and Wednesday had something going on before this. It's odd that what ever is going on w them was all a sudden and effecting them, not really the other 3. Perhaps they weren't started right. I have not seen any type of discharge from Wednesday nose, and what I seen from Mr Blink wasn't enough to worry about. I'm starting to think it's not a respiratory issue. 
So as of now, the Quads are fine, my over worrying was their problem. And I may still loose Wednesday, I'm hoping for a good outcome but I'm doubtful she will make it, but as for the other 3, they seem to be doing just fine today. I am going to keep the medicated soaks for 10-14 days just to be safe. 


This is Wednesday this morning. I have her a private dish, she wouldn't touch anything in it tho

Different story for Dent, he is eating like a little champ this morning, much much better then he was doing yesterday. 


I got caught, hehehe. He hates to be watched.


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## Jodie (Sep 27, 2014)

Best of luck to you. Glad there is improvement in the others.


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## Tom (Sep 27, 2014)

Only guessing here. This sounds an awful lot like hatchling failure syndrome. It could also be a disease of some sort. In the interest of diagnostics:

What was the source of these tortoises?
Did the breeder use a brooder box or leave them in the incubator while they absorbed their yolk sacs?
How often did the breeder soak?
Where was the breeder and how much time did the babies spend outside daily?


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## AmRoKo (Sep 27, 2014)

Hey do you think maybe you can set up a little enclosure that's just for wednesday for now, sometimes some of them do better if they are by themselves and hopefully if she gets better add her back to the others.


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## ascott (Sep 27, 2014)

> So you say you acquired this one with a second one right? How long was their quarantine before you put those two in with your others? Did you house these two together as a pair before adding in with others? You said the warm side was in 80'sthe to 90's...what basking spot did you offer? They should have a cool dry side that has a bit warmer area that then runs itself into the hottest basking spot..the basking spot should be 100-110...


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## Amanda81 (Sep 27, 2014)

Tom said:


> Only guessing here. This sounds an awful lot like hatchling failure syndrome. It could also be a disease of some sort. In the interest of diagnostics:
> 
> What was the source of these tortoises?
> Did the breeder use a brooder box or leave them in the incubator while they absorbed their yolk sacs?
> ...


I got them from a place called river valley tortoises. I had to wait on them cause he said they wouldn't be ready for another 2wks. The pics of them were of them soaking. (This part is my own fault if this is hatchling failure) I didn't ask about how they were hatched, how often they were soaked, or if they even went outside. I didn't even think about that at the time. Then when they got here they were so active and looked extremely well cared for. I had got the other 3 a month or so prior and 1 they got stuck in Memphis over nite, which freaked me out and 2 they were pretty ruff looking, I worried about them so bad and didn't give these two a thought cause they were perfect. I am certainly paying for my carelessness now.


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## Amanda81 (Sep 27, 2014)

AmRoKo said:


> Hey do you think maybe you can set up a little enclosure that's just for wednesday for now, sometimes some of them do better if they are by themselves and hopefully if she gets better add her back to the others.


I did, I put Wednesday in the "tortoise hospital" today. I no longer feel like whatever is going on is catchable but just to be safe, I separated her and I'm still dosing EVERYBODY with the medicated soaks.


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## AmRoKo (Sep 27, 2014)

Amanda81 said:


> I did, I put Wednesday in the "tortoise hospital" today. I no longer feel like whatever is going on is catchable but just to be safe, I separated her and I'm still dosing EVERYBODY with the medicated soaks.



That's good, I don't know if whatever it is can transfer to the others or not but I just think when they get sick they can become highly stressed just by the simplest things so isolating her for now could very well make a tremendous effort in her being able to recover.


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## Amanda81 (Sep 27, 2014)

They have a rock area for basking, it's right at 100 on the rock. They never really use it tho, they sit off to the side of the rock. And again, completely knew the info but just didn't do it, I didn't quarantine them. I know it doesn't matter and I'm learning my lesson for the stupid theory now but like I stated earlier, they looked so healthy and well raised to that point, I unboxed them, soaked them and added them in with the other 3. I honestly don't think it's anything spreadable now, my other 3 are fine as can be now, it's something that is just affecting those two. I am still learning my lesson either way and I feel that I, my carelessness, just cost a little tortoise, maybe two if Wednesday doesn't make a turn around, their life.


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## Amanda81 (Sep 27, 2014)

AmRoKo said:


> That's good, I don't know if whatever it is can transfer to the others or not but I just think when they get sick they can become highly stressed just by the simplest things so isolating her for now could very well make a tremendous effort in her being able to recover.


Ya I kinda went on the theory that I hate to be bothered when I'm sick and since she is having to be soaked twice a day and I'm sitting her in the food dish at times to encourage her to eat she didn't need to be bothered by the others, plus my hospital tank is in a low traffic area so between that and not knowing 100% the others won't catch it, I figured it was best.


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## Tom (Sep 27, 2014)

Amanda, I respect and admire your maturity here. I'm very happy you are sharing the lessons you are learning from this. Thank you.

A couple of things:
1. I would not have recommend the antibiotic soaks. I don't know if they are, or are not effective, and I don't see how anyone can know when we don't know what is wrong in the first place. I am not saying you are right or wrong in doing it, I just don't want others reading to think they should automatically treat with antibiotics whenever anything goes wrong. I also have to question the effectiveness when offered as a soak. I don't want you to feel berated or anything. I understand you wanted to do something, I'm just not sure _this_ was the thing to do in this situation.
2. If this were me, I would want to know more about what is going on. Can you call or email River Valley Tortoises and ask them how they start their hatchlings, or if they can ask the breeder in the case that they are a re-seller?

If HFS due to chronic hatchling dehydration is the COD here, then it will not be because of something you did. The seller ought to know what _they_ did wrong in that case, to prevent it from happening again.


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## Tortshort (Sep 27, 2014)

If you continue the antibiotic soaks I would check with your veterinarian to make sure the antibiotics are even safe. Reptiles can have very few antibiotics that are safe for them. A cow antibiotic maybe harmful.


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## KatieandKyle (Sep 28, 2014)

Amanda, I have had a very similar situation occur with one of my dry start Leo's . I treated with an over the counter saline solution until whatever it was cleared up in the eyes but at the same time was soaking twice a day in baby carrot food and pedialyte. There was a noticeable difference rather quickly. 

I hope this will give you at least another option to try? I'm so sorry!
Katie


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## Amanda81 (Sep 28, 2014)

KatieandKyle said:


> Amanda, I have had a very similar situation occur with one of my dry start Leo's . I treated with an over the counter saline solution until whatever it was cleared up in the eyes but at the same time was soaking twice a day in baby carrot food and pedialyte. There was a noticeable difference rather quickly.
> 
> I hope this will give you at least another option to try? I'm so sorry!
> Katie


I'm using saline for the eyes and I'm also adding electrolytes to the soaks. I'm hoping for a turn around


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## Amanda81 (Sep 28, 2014)

Tortshort said:


> If you continue the antibiotic soaks I would check with your veterinarian to make sure the antibiotics are even safe. Reptiles can have very few antibiotics that are safe for them. A cow antibiotic maybe harmful.


I checked the safety of the antibiotics, electrolyte and vitamin supplement before I even got it. It's a recommended broad spectrum antibiotic and the vet said that's what he would recommend.


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## Amanda81 (Sep 28, 2014)

Tom said:


> Amanda, I respect and admire your maturity here. I'm very happy you are sharing the lessons you are learning from this. Thank you.
> 
> A couple of things:
> 1. I would not have recommend the antibiotic soaks. I don't know if they are, or are not effective, and I don't see how anyone can know when we don't know what is wrong in the first place. I am not saying you are right or wrong in doing it, I just don't want others reading to think they should automatically treat with antibiotics whenever anything goes wrong. I also have to question the effectiveness when offered as a soak. I don't want you to feel berated or anything. I understand you wanted to do something, I'm just not sure _this_ was the thing to do in this situation.
> ...


I guess I should have added that when I posted the earlier thread. I would not recommend running out and grabbing an antibiotic to anyone myself. And yes, me wanting to so something in attempts to help them played a part in my chose to do so. I don't believe the antibiotic helped or hurt, either way. And I sometimes forget that someone newer to tort ownership then myself might read what I write, only thing that was going through my head at the time was, " get on the forum and maybe someone can tell you how to fix it". With that being said, let me adjust myself...
Antibiotics aren't the solution, expectially when you don't really even know what's going on to begin with. You can mess up many things when dealing with medications, types, dosage, frequency of doses. 
At this point I still don't know what the problem is. Mr Blink was perfectly fine on Wednesday and dead Friday night. Wednesday, his sibling, became very lethargic late Thursday, early Friday, she won't eat, she won't drink. The only difference between her and Mr Blink is 1- he would just sit in his soaks, after about 10 minutes Wednesday will start her water aerobics, 2- his eyes stayed closed, she will open hers when she starts her water aerobics, and 3- she hasn't passed away as quickly as he did. I sit this morning, watching her in her soak, wondering if she is slowly recouping or just dying a slow miserable death, suffering. We are basically at a stand still. She is no better but I don't see any signs of anything worse either. Everybody else is just fine. I have sent breeder an email about them, perhaps when I hear back from that I will have some answers for my questions.


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## Yellow Turtle01 (Sep 28, 2014)

Wow, I am so sorry this is happening to you and your torts! I hope Wednesday gets better soon.


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## ascott (Sep 28, 2014)

> Antibiotics aren't the solution, expectially when you don't really even know what's going on to begin with


. 

While this is a safe and correct thing to add....there is also margin for "trying anything you can" when dealing with a tort that is ailing and quickly....so do not bash yourself too much on this part....we can all read the entire thread, and should--before offering up any comments...in my opinion that is...


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## Amanda81 (Sep 28, 2014)

I contacted the breeder and he responded very quickly, thank goodness. He literally raises them as the care sheet Tom made says to. This is what I also follow. I explained to him what is going on, I'm hoping perhaps he can add something. 
How long can a baby go without eating before that kills them? She hasn't eat since Thursday/Friday. I'm pretty sure she isn't drinking either. I say her over into her water dish and She opened her mouth and got water in it but then she closed her mouth it all came out her nose. Is this normal?


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## Amanda81 (Sep 28, 2014)

Yellow Turtle01 said:


> Wow, I am so sorry this is happening to you and your torts! I hope Wednesday gets better soon.


Thanks!


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## AmRoKo (Sep 28, 2014)

Amanda81 said:


> I contacted the breeder and he responded very quickly, thank goodness. He literally raises them as the care sheet Tom made says to. This is what I also follow. I explained to him what is going on, I'm hoping perhaps he can add something.
> How long can a baby go without eating before that kills them? She hasn't eat since Thursday/Friday. I'm pretty sure she isn't drinking either. I say her over into her water dish and *She opened her mouth and got water in it but then she closed her mouth it all came out her nose. Is this normal?*



Maybe she was yawning and got water in her mouth so she pushed it out of her nose? I have seen mine yawn sometimes during their soaks and do something like that so I don't think it's anything to worry about. Hopefully maybe the breeder can indeed add something, that's great that he responded to you.


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## ascott (Sep 28, 2014)

> She opened her mouth and got water in it but then she closed her mouth it all came out her nose. Is this normal?



That does not sound routine/normal dear--sounds like something is clogging it up...."if it were me", I would move the little struggling tort to a place that does not have high humidity....I would also be sure to keep the temps no less than 80 degrees day and night but still be sure to offer a basking spot (without a rock under the hot spot right now)....I would not use the electrolyte stuff any more but would use plain warm water and be sure to offer the soak for 20-30 minutes (this will keep the tort hydrated during the bumped temps) I would not add the antibiotics nor the vitamin stuff--both likely are not great tasting and could have the tort avoiding taking in the water due to the taste...I also would be sure that the tort is kept in a quiet calm spot..so not alot of disturbance while resting....I would however, not let this little tort sleep itself away....make sure to move it to the basking spot/make sure to disturb it a few times per day....the tortoise likely is not feeling well and in turn will retreat to itself....this is the time that "I" would continue routine, I would offer food that the tort normally would get as treats and loves--so the temptation to eat is offered....I would not keep this tort in any of the enclosure that the passed tort was in--just to reduce any exposure to possible bacterium and such....better to error on the side of caution....


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## Amanda81 (Sep 28, 2014)

AmRoKo said:


> Maybe she was yawning and got water in her mouth so she pushed it out of her nose? I have seen mine yawn sometimes during their soaks and do something like that so I don't think it's anything to worry about. Hopefully maybe the breeder can indeed add something, that's great that he responded to you.


Ok. I have never seen any of my others do that so I didn't know if it was normal for them to push liquid from the mouth out the nose.


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## Amanda81 (Sep 28, 2014)

ascott said:


> That does not sound routine/normal dear--sounds like something is clogging it up...."if it were me", I would move the little struggling tort to a place that does not have high humidity....I would also be sure to keep the temps no less than 80 degrees day and night but still be sure to offer a basking spot (without a rock under the hot spot right now)....I would not use the electrolyte stuff any more but would use plain warm water and be sure to offer the soak for 20-30 minutes (this will keep the tort hydrated during the bumped temps) I would not add the antibiotics nor the vitamin stuff--both likely are not great tasting and could have the tort avoiding taking in the water due to the taste...I also would be sure that the tort is kept in a quiet calm spot..so not alot of disturbance while resting....I would however, not let this little tort sleep itself away....make sure to move it to the basking spot/make sure to disturb it a few times per day....the tortoise likely is not feeling well and in turn will retreat to itself....this is the time that "I" would continue routine, I would offer food that the tort normally would get as treats and loves--so the temptation to eat is offered....I would not keep this tort in any of the enclosure that the passed tort was in--just to reduce any exposure to possible bacterium and such....better to error on the side of caution....


Ok thanks for advise. At this point I will do anything that might help. I have put her in her enclosure. I can change out bark and take the humidity away. I'm keeping temps between 92-96. She is in a quiet low traffic spot but I do put her in her water dish (has plan warm water) every 2 hrs. Figured it would help w hydration plus make her move to get out. Her enclosure is basically a mini version of the one she was in, w a basking light and all. I have been offering her every kind of food I can think of, she ain't interested. I guess it's a wait and see, I hate that.


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## Amanda81 (Sep 28, 2014)

Today while I was soaking them I figured I would check their weights, make sure their growing. And well, maybe this is normal, I don't know but I weighted everyone, measured em, and compared to their 09/02/14 measurements. Ivory and Duke both have grown a quarter of an inch and ivory had gained 18g and Duke gained 26g, their sibling, Dent, hasn't grown none and has only gained 4g. I have noticed he was more the size of Wednesday and blink who are much smaller. Of course I don't have blinks measurements but Wednesday has grown a quarter of an inch and gained 6g, so I done Wednesday and Dent first and thought, yay, your growing but then when I weighted the other two and seen the difference in what they had gained, that concerned me. So of course, I did the same to the Quads, same thing, Callie and Vanilla had gained 11 and 12 g while Arizona and alfie only gained 2 and 4. Now I have always supervised mealtimes, I like to monitor what they are choosing to eat and how much of it their eating, I also watch for anyone not eating enough or if anyone is "hogging" the food dishes. They all eat good, I mean enough that I'm not concerned about it, their eating the same things, so why such a big difference in weight gain? Is this a norm or should I start doing something different at meal time? Wasn't sure.


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## ascott (Sep 28, 2014)

Okay so lets first start here...."I" would stop comparing them to one another and I would start individual charts for each...then base their growth on their own merits...while a species has a low and high for size and such...there is no two animals that will grow the same....I have two younger redfoot torts here that you would not be able to tell by size which is older/younger---the younger one is triple the size of the older one--triple..so please lets forget the notion with this tort that there is some invisible scale that must be met....let the tort work on its own basis...let's?

I understand your desire to soak the tort several times per day...however, "in my opinion" that is too much, I mean--if the tort has somehow aspirated while being misted or while being weak in the water at some point---I would want the critter to have an opportunity to have a dry out time---so if it were me, I would soak the tort at tops twice a day....now remember, these are things that I would try due to what you have described with the tort...not as a regular normal way of husbandry...okay...so some of the things that I may share that "I" would do here are just that, here for the situation you are outlining....

Also, if the tort holds weight or only looses a gram....try to remain calm and remember, you are doing all that you can possibly be doing--are you okay? If you have a few moments of un rushed time, perhaps bring the tort out for a while and wrap him up snug in a soft shirt or something and set the little one bundled down with you, on your lap, next to you---against your warmth---no scientific reason for this, other than one creature helping out another--sharing some good will....simple as that...some will scoff and well, so what? It certainly will not cause harm....right? 

If it were me....I would try all that comes to mind..within reason, remember we humans sometimes will go overboard and in doing so can cause discomfort all in the name of trying to help.....so perhaps just do what you are compelled to and then remember to sit and just be with the tort from time to time...does that make sense....?


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## Amanda81 (Sep 28, 2014)

ascott said:


> Okay so lets first start here...."I" would stop comparing them to one another and I would start individual charts for each...then base their growth on their own merits...while a species has a low and high for size and such...there is no two animals that will grow the same....I have two younger redfoot torts here that you would not be able to tell by size which is older/younger---the younger one is triple the size of the older one--triple..so please lets forget the notion with this tort that there is some invisible scale that must be met....let the tort work on its own basis...let's?
> 
> I understand your desire to soak the tort several times per day...however, "in my opinion" that is too much, I mean--if the tort has somehow aspirated while being misted or while being weak in the water at some point---I would want the critter to have an opportunity to have a dry out time---so if it were me, I would soak the tort at tops twice a day....now remember, these are things that I would try due to what you have described with the tort...not as a regular normal way of husbandry...okay...so some of the things that I may share that "I" would do here are just that, here for the situation you are outlining....
> 
> ...


I do keep individual records for all of them. I'm not really comparing them to each other, I simply wanted to know if it was ok for one to gain 20g while another that's being kept and fed the same and from same clutch only gains 4g, or am I possibly looking at another issue down the road. I'm not sure if I have wrote to much about Dent, or his siblings for that matter, but the short version... He is a dry start baby. Again, I failed to acquire the info before hand but when he arrived he came w a care sheet, the breeders guidelines of care, this is how I know how he was started. When him and his sibling where shipped to me they got held over in Memphis over night and when they did finally arrive, he was covered in his own poo, now the way they was packaged in the shipping box told me for him to have poo in the places he had poo, they had a rough little trip. Anyways, ivory and Duke are in pretty good shape (on the outside anyways) but Dent, he is a rough little fella. He has a beautiful pattern and color but short of that, he is one those cases, you love him cause he is so pitiful. His little shell is very bumpy, he has places that are actually sunk in, that's why we call him Dent, even his face looks completely different from all the others. Maybe he was hatched that way, maybe something the breeder did, heck who knows. What I know is that he is now here, with me, I understand he isn't a fluffy cat or dog that can sleep in the bed or sit in my lap but he is still one of my pets, which to me is part of my family, my responsibility. I don't want to "experiment" or "see what happens" or anything else along those lines. I know nothing is "for sure" in this world, and what happened or worked for one person might not for the next. I am simply trying to stay ahead of this hatchling failure thing if I can. It would crush me to find out after he died that all I needed to do is give an extra soak daily or extra supplements for example. I figured since I had already suddenly lost one to who knows what and another one is well on it's way, ever detail I could add might help. Dent still gained some weight and for that I am grateful, my concern started when I see his siblings gaining 15+ more them he is. As far as I'm concerned he can grow just as slow as he pleases as long as he stays happy and healthy. I'm just wanting to make sure this is an ok thing. 
As for the numerous soaks, when I say I put her in her water dish, it's not a soak, like 30 seconds a minute tops she is in there, I am simply doing it in attempts that she drinks some, plus she will try to get out which tells me she is still in there, she hasn't completely gave up yet. Right now that's the only difference I see between her and Blink, he quit all together and she is at least still opening her eyes and moving when she has to. So I try to give her down time in case that's what she needs and I try to encourage her to be active in case that's what she needs, cause at this point, that's all I know to do.


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## Jodie (Sep 28, 2014)

I feel your frustration and completely understand. I had two, that I believe we're started dry, I lost Pensee after I had her for about 3 months. It was a slow steady decline for her. The first thing I noticed that really alarmed me me was her plastron got soft. My other one Pepe, has gained only 12 grams in 9 months. He seems fine, active, eats etc. I worry about him constantly. I really wish we had more info on this and knew something that we could do to make sure they stay ok until they decide to grow. I am obsessively checking his temps and humidity to make sure everything is optimal as I know it.


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## Amanda81 (Sep 28, 2014)

Jodie said:


> I feel your frustration and completely understand. I had two, that I believe we're started dry, I lost Pensee after I had her for about 3 months. It was a slow steady decline for her. The first thing I noticed that really alarmed me me was her plastron got soft. My other one Pepe, has gained only 12 grams in 9 months. He seems fine, active, eats etc. I worry about him constantly. I really wish we had more info on this and knew something that we could do to make sure they stay ok until they decide to grow. I am obsessively checking his temps and humidity to make sure everything is optimal as I know it.


Yes, I came across your thread on them earlier. It is frustrating. Don't get me wrong, I am suffering the heartache now cause I didn't do some basic question asking like I should have, but it's still what it is, we have little creatures that we have gotten attached to that because of someone else's lack of care might suddenly or in your case slowly die. I get very attached to my animals. I never meant to have 4 sulcata hatchlings, 5, 4now, leopard hatchlings and 3 big guys, I originally wanted wanted an Aldabra and after researching decided it would b smart to start out on the cheaper end of tort ownership to make sure I was up for the challenge. Well now I have what I have and I am attached to everyone of them. You spend a large amount of your time with them so I don't see how anyone couldn't. My boyfriend was talking the other day about down sizing if I get my Aldabra as I am planning around first of year but I don't see this happening. I don't think I could choose one to let go. I love the Sudans, they motor around the yard and I could sit for hours and watch them, at first with the leopards it was watching them to see how their shell patterns changed but now, their personality has really got me hooked. And my sulcata hatchlings, Arizona comes to the door of the enclosure every evening because she knows I'm going to b peaking around the corner to make sure everyone is ok. She usually gets to get out, ride around in my hand for 5-10 minutes, we will run out and I will grab her a plantain leaf or something to hand feed her. So the thoughts of one my baby's being gone is hard, then to lose one like that, at least if it had been something we our selfs had done we could fix the issue and move forward but w this hatchling failure, it's just basically a guessing game, and that's cruel. I will never ever not get the needed info again. You better believe I will b asking questions, ever question I can think of. As for him growing, as long as he happy and healthy, he can stay at his whopping 32g, I love his little jacked up self.


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## Amanda81 (Sep 29, 2014)

Well I had to get up and bury Wednesday this morning, poor baby finally gave up. 
I checked on everybody else and their all fine. Soaks went well, everyone ate good, no signs or symptoms of any issues. I don't have a clue what happen to Wednesday and Blink but the others don't seem to be affected by whatever it was. The breeder started them right, I follow the same guidelines as the breeder did which is more or less the same guidelines in Toms care sheet. I literally do the exact same thing with my leopards as I do my sulcatas, and only these two were effected. It's odd, I am going to keep researching things, perhaps eventually I will figure something out. Maybe it's something as simple as they were the smallest, maybe Wednesday when we went outside to sun, even tho the ground temps were good, maybe the breeze was to chilly, I did cut outside time short cause of the breeze, maybe I will never know. 
But as of right now the rest of my baby's seem to be happy and healthy and I am going to try to keep them that way.


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## Robertchrisroph (Sep 29, 2014)

. I don't know if this helps or not. I am new. I had a cat pass away for no reason I could not find out why. So the vet said he can take samples and freeze for up to a year till I could afford to send in for analysis. maybe? so sorry. And take a break you do all you can and more


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## Jodie (Sep 29, 2014)

Sorry to hear she didn't make it.


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## ascott (Sep 29, 2014)

r.i.p. little s


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## AmRoKo (Sep 29, 2014)

Wow so sorry about Wednesday, you really did a whole lot for her, gave her a chance but unfortunately she just couldn't get over what ever it was that was happening inside her. 

RIP Mr. Blink & Wednesday.


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## Tortshort (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm sorry to hear that. RIP little torts


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## turtlelady80 (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm so sorry that you lost Mr. Blinks and Wednesday I know how frustrating it is losing torts and you don't know the cause.


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