# Growth Rates



## Tom (Jun 28, 2014)

Anyone care to discuss?

What I want to address and discuss are the varying growth rates achieved by different methods of housing and raising babies. Specifically the old "dry" methods compared to the new "wet" methods. For the purposes of this discussion I define "dry" methods as a dry substrate, low humidity, and infrequent soaks. I define the "wet" method as damp substrate, higher humidity, humid hides, and frequent soaks.

Frequently people suggest that "slow" growth simulates what happens in the wild and is desirable. These same people suggest that "fast" growth is bad and associated with all sort of maladies. I dispute both of these assertions and here are the two key points I wish to discuss which explain why I disagree.

1. For years I have been raising groups of tortoises of the same species together. Some grow faster than others for a wide variety of reasons. My fastest growing tortoise also grow the smoothest and appear to be the most healthy and vigorous.

2. Many times I have raised identical groups on the same diet and the same quantity of food. No one can tell me why, but a group raised drier with more "natural" conditions grows much slower than an equivalent group raised with high humidity and daily soaks. Same food in the same quantity. One group processes it more efficiently and grows at a much faster rate. The other group eats the same amount of the same food, but grows much slower somehow. Is this faster growth bad? As long as nutrient, fiber and mineral needs are met, how can it be bad if a tortoise is growing and growing smoothly too? I am not trying to grow my tortoises at ANY speed, fast or slow. I try to feed them well, provide optimal conditions for the species and age, and I don't care how fast they grow. My goal is to grow them HEALTHY, not fast or slow. I just find it fascinating that they grow faster on the same amount of food when they are better hydrated.

Please jump in and share observations of your own tortoises raised one way or the other. I feel I have a unique perspective on this because I have been raising so many groups side by side for so many years, where most people raise fewer or one tortoise, and stick to one method or another, so they don't have the numbers to compare. So please tell me where and why you think I am wrong, or right.


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## christinaland128 (Jun 28, 2014)

I'm a newbie and from what I've observed with my Reds is they are growing rapidly. They grow .5" per month. They are kept very humid and they eat 1-2 times a day. They also have an option to graze on plants in their enclosure which they don't seem to do very much. I often wonder if I should offer food less often.

And I'm not sure if this is beginning signs of pyramiding but the one who EATS more AND tends to hang out in the less humid upper level has some raised ridges.(my YeLLoW Columbian guy on the left) ATTACH=full]85381[/ATTACH]


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## tortoisetime565 (Jun 28, 2014)

I agree Tom!!


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## FLINTUS (Jun 28, 2014)

Tom said:


> Anyone care to discuss?
> 
> What I want to address and discuss are the varying growth rates achieved by different methods of housing and raising babies. Specifically the old "dry" methods compared to the new "wet" methods. For the purposes of this discussion I define "dry" methods as a dry substrate, low humidity, and infrequent soaks. I define the "wet" method as damp substrate, higher humidity, humid hides, and frequent soaks.
> 
> ...


Let me have a shot at answering 2. By hydrating the keratin, it is then more flexible for a while, and less compact, which means that there will be denser growth to fill that area. With more dense growth, in addition to the shell becoming thicker, the growth will also 'extend' , resulting in a larger tortoise SHELL. I would not however say, that in the case of your experiment, that the actual tortoise would be any bigger, just the shell. I don't think it is a humidity thing in terms of fast growth, but hydration, which is slightly different, as we both know. 
You are right though for sure, the 'natural' conditions produce slower growth, and tortoises in the wild are generally much smaller growers than ones in captivity. 
See I think fast growth works fine with some species, e.g. hingebacks, leopards, sulcatas, some subspecies of Greek etc. but it can also cause problems in some species, e.g. stars, reds, russians
The last one in particular is definitely a problem. When fast growth happens in Russians, the new growth appears to be very weak, for some reason the shell can't carry on building properly. After all, they only eat for 3-4 months a year in the wild, and get much more exercise in captivity.
What we can both agree on is that when you also have bad diet, temperature and humidity, then fast growth causes much worse pyramiding, so from that perspective I like to grow my reds slower in case they have a bad month in my care where they're picky in their food, or hang out in one area of the enclosure constantly, so they don't experience the correct balance of microclimates. My hingebacks get lots of food though.


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## Star-of-India (Jun 29, 2014)

My stars appear to be growing beautifully with feeding ad lib in a humid closed chamber/vivarium. Temps are warm 85-95+ and they often hang out in their water dishes, which stars are apparently not supposed to do. 

I've been trying to take good pics of this, but it doesn't show that well in 2 dimensions. In any case, between the previously developed pyramids the scutes are growing out pretty flat. I'm not 'sampling' or otherwise testing the thickness of the new keratin, but it does not appear thin or unhealthy in the least. 

My youngest two 'yearling' stars had just minimal pyramiding, but the definite beginnings of it. They are now growing flat and fast and as adults I believe they'll look smooth to the casual observer.


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## Clawem (Jul 3, 2014)

I was keeping my sulcata's dry when I mean dry I even used a dehumidifier to keep humidty down because thats what I kept reading and they grew slow and started to pyramid. Now that I have seen the light they are growing much much quicker and also more active. I think they are much healthier than they were before even though they ate well and are eating about the same as they did before it just seems they are more alert and active. I wish we could update all the other sites on sulcatas so more are not raised dry.


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## tortadise (Jul 3, 2014)

What I want to wonder is where the happy medium will stand at. I have done both methods and seen very good results. But how healthy are they? The only way to really test these two theories of practice in my opinion is to follow each method with a scientific and anatomical test. There has to be a set value point to establish a bar.

Yes smooth tortoises do appear to be much more active, "healthy", and dipict a more wild type look. But so does slow grow. IF done properly of course. Not keeping an animal, and any animal for that matter not just tortoises, in a proper environment and fed nutritious food items needed for positive development of the entire animal. Inside and outside are most important. But has anyone raised a Sulcata in a humid environment and a not so humid environment but still soaked and hydrated the animal and both fed the exact same diet and provided UVB lights? That's what I want to know. But not just going off those methods. I'd like to see blood panels done and liver/kidney values, glucose values, testosterone values etc... For a true evaluation of the comparative results. Seeing sometimes is NOT believing. 

I know I'm seeing like I'm on the fence here. But I'm not. I have done both methods. Every species is completely different too. For example Arid species. A true arid species does pyramid naturally. Like the kalahari tent tortoise has naturally pyramided scutes for heat placement and thermoregulating purposes. But then you go south a few hundred miles and the geometric tortoise is relatively smooth. That's because the environments they are found in are completely different weather, and Eco systems. These two remarkably similar tortoises also lay different eggs. One lays 4-6 and one lays one egg at a time only. Their sizes are completely different too. 

But in reality would 2 of these same species benefit from being raised in the exact environment and thrive just as long? Perhaps. But what anatomical issues could arise from one to the other? I know kidney and liver failure is a major irreversible and most times fatal issue in tortoises. It's caused over years of inadequate care. But what happens when we put two methods that could see the same result in to test. Which one will last longer?

I see fat people living to be very old and very healthy skinny people dying extremely early. Is this the same theory to apply to a smooth tortoise versus a pyramided. Pyramiding obviously is bad, but not all of it. It just depends on the severity of it and rather it's MBD, or accelerated vitamintosis A (overly developed keratin placement from poor or over feeding wrong diet)

So in turn I am not saying raise two tortoises complete opposite and which one will be healthier. What I'm saying is I'd like to see two tortoises raised in the exact same husbandry practice but not exposed to extreme "closed chamber" methods and both animals tested as stated above for a good definitive stance on which one is better.


Speculative I do have to say smoother tortoises that have grown faster(let's use sulcatas since they're easier than complex tent tortoises or arid species that was a bad example sorry) tend to waiver on my side of being more an active healthier specimen than that of a slower grown health active specimen. But it's internally I'm interested in before standing behind completely which method is best. Perhaps we should all set up a study with some babies I hatch out or you could do the same Tom? I know you have before, as have I. But like I said earlier sometimes what you see on the outside is not all it's cracked it to be.

Anyways my 3 cents. Ha


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## FLINTUS (Jul 3, 2014)

I agree with Kelly, as I've said before, there have been very few studies into the long term and internal affects of intense high humidity WITHOUT THE CHANCE TO DRY OUT. Shell density would also be interesting to look at.
Kelly also raises an interesting point in that some species do appear to pyramid in the wild anyway. I have seen both hermanni and elegans do this in the wild with my own eyes. With the former I think the one I saw was an exception, but it appears g.elegans pyramid a lot in the wild. As do, it turns out, s.pardalis. Whether this is what they naturally SHOULD do, or whether it is due to the conditions not being perfect-habitat destruction, droughts, global warming etc.(even going back to my example with g.elegans of fast moving tectonic plates)- and as a result they pyramid, is also what we need to understand.


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## Neal (Jul 3, 2014)

This is a topic I would like to participate in, though I can't devote much time to sit down and type out a whole lot of details for the foreseeable future. I hope it's acceptable if I just share some general observations in a quick format. 

While I haven't done much "side by side" comparisons, I have raised a respectable amount of tortoises in a variety of different methods so I hope my general information shared here could carry some weight in this discussion.

Here are my thoughts and "conclusions" based on my extensive experience and observations: 

- A tortoise raised in a humid environment will grow faster than a tortoise raised in a dry environment, and off the top of my head, I cannot think of any exception that I have noted against this observation.
- I have not noticed any difference in pyramiding between my version of the "dry method" and my version of the "humid method". 
- Tortoises maintained with more humidity eat more, which I suspect is a result of the warmer temperatures in the humid environment which are not as critical in a dryer environment.
- I inferred that you do not want to take this discussion here, but I think it's worthwhile to say that I have not noted anything that would lead me to believe that a tortoise is healthier if raised in one method over the other. 
- A slower growing tortoise does not necessarily lead to stunted growth - as support - my largest leopard tortoise is also my slowest grower (Currently approaching the 18" mark). I don't know how large the parents were, but considering averages, that's a pretty respectable size. 

There is more that I would like to contribute, but that will have to suffice for now. I hope, at a minimum, it was somewhat useful in the discussion.


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## Tom (Jul 3, 2014)

tortadise said:


> But has anyone raised a Sulcata in a humid environment and a not so humid environment but still soaked and hydrated the animal and both fed the exact same diet and provided UVB lights?



Your post had lots of good points as usually Kelly. Thank you for the insight and discussion. I'd like to address the above question first and foremost.

The answer is yes. A couple of years ago I took hatchlings from the same bunch and raised them two different ways in two different groups. Group 1 was raised in my typical way. Indoor closed humid chamber, daily 1-2 hours sunning forays in a well planted 4x8 enclosure, followed by a daily soak on the way in. Group 2 was raised almost entirely outdoors every day. They would go out at 8 or 9 in the morning and come in around 8 or 9 pm every evening. Their enclosure was 4x8' and densely planted with only a few bare spots. The ground was kept damp in an attempt to add some humidity. They also got a soak on the way in every night and always had drinking water available, indoors and out. Both groups were fed from the same bucket of food and about the same quantity. I did not weigh the food or anything, but it went onto identical feeding plates in approximately the same quantity every day.

The results: The indoor group grew much faster and were much more personable. They were also nearly perfectly smooth. At four months old they weighed 2.5 times more than their outdoor counterparts. The outdoor ones were much more wary. Some of them would panic and flee at the sight of me. They were active, ate like little piggies, and they were somewhat pyramided. All were healthy and active, but the outdoor ones grew MUCH slower and pyramided. I could get humidity readings as high as 60% on the damp ground in the heavily planted areas of the outdoor pens, but typically it was in the 30-40% range.

I did no blood work or x-rays, but from that experiment and many others, it is clear which method "works" better for me, and which method I prefer and promote.


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## kmartin (Jul 3, 2014)

Were the outdoor group in a much larger enclosure where the slower growth could be attributed to more ground being covered as they hid and moved from hide to hide? If they were eating the same approximate amounts and type could artificial UVB be more beneficial due to it not being filtered by environmental pollutants?


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## G-stars (Jul 12, 2014)

He mentions the enclosures are the same size. So the real question is whether the humidity is what triggers more growth? Both groups got soaked daily. Or was it the UVB lights can they actually help more than the sun? Personally I believe it's the humidity. What does everyone else think?


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## Star-of-India (Jul 13, 2014)

You know, in the wild rapid healthy growth is a survival advantage for hatchlings/babies/chicks, etc., of almost any creature. For a hatchling tortoise hatching out in an environmentally 'good' year with plenty of forage is much better luck than hatching out in a 'poor' year. 

This is why I feel that early rapid healthy growth is both safe and desirable. It is not an advantage to CB hatchlings to experience the privations of their 'normal' environment.


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## stojanovski92113 (Aug 24, 2014)

I know I'm late on this one...but that's very interesting to know. Considering that those tortoises were outside with the sun too. Apparently humidity plays a big role for these tortoises.


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## Tom (Aug 25, 2014)

kmartin said:


> Were the outdoor group in a much larger enclosure where the slower growth could be attributed to more ground being covered as they hid and moved from hide to hide? If they were eating the same approximate amounts and type could artificial UVB be more beneficial due to it not being filtered by environmental pollutants?



The indoor group had only a regular incandescent flood bulb and a regular 48" florescent tube for light. No artificial UV of any kind. They got their UV from the daily sunning sessions.


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## heathedw (Aug 28, 2014)

It's no different than your fingernails which I think grow faster in water. Surfers and swimmers always ask this question. I don't know why but when I lived in FL and stayed in the ocean mine grew like crazy. I would imagine this along with heat which increases your metabolic rate causes the rapid growth. Here is an article talking about nail pathology and hydration. 

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1242733-overview#


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## Teodora'sDAD (Aug 29, 2014)

heathedw said:


> It's no different than your fingernails which I think grow faster in water. Surfers and swimmers always ask this question. I don't know why but when I lived in FL and stayed in the ocean mine grew like crazy. I would imagine this along with heat which increases your metabolic rate causes the rapid growth. Here is an article talking about nail pathology and hydration.
> 
> http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1242733-overview#


 Very interesting!
That made me think about horse hooves. Poor diet and lack of minerals causes irregular slower growth in the hoof. When the diet is improved you can actually see small rings in the horses hoof and faster growth. there are products that can also be applied to the cornet band when the new growth starts. Keeping that new growth hydrated creates more even growth of the hoof. just my two cents.


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