# Common Knowledge drift, Parrots, and Overgrown beaks...



## biochemnerd808 (Feb 20, 2013)

I came across something interesting. I read *all* the posts about overgrown beaks on the tortoise forum, even the back files, and up until 2009, when a pic was posted of a really overgrown beak, people always said "Yep, you'll need to have that trimmed, and then for MAINTENANCE feed on a slate or flat rock." Then all of a sudden, around 2010, everybody just says: "Feed on a slate or flat rock" without the recommendation to trim (except a few of the experts might chime in and say it needs trimming, but they often didn't bother any more, because a bunch of others had already chimed in). More often than not, there were a few pretty self-righteous posters on the thread emphasizing that THEY feed on a slate or rock, so THEIR tortoise would never get such an overgrown beak. It's a typical case of knowledge drift - folks that know 'a little bit' parroting partial knowledge, and that becoming the norm. 

So here it is, folks: A beak that is really overgrown WILL in most cases need to be trimmed, to make normal eating possible. Then feeding on a slate will help keep it short. Even then, if the tortoise has MBD, the beak may still grow faster than it should, and may need re-trimming. Even after years of good food, proper supplements, and healthy UVB, and ten slates in their enclosure, a tortoise may show accelerated beak growth, and need it re-trimmed. 




Just a reminder not always to take everything you read on the forum at face value... at least not based just on a few posts.


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## Edna (Feb 20, 2013)

Super-cool post, BCNerd! I think you'll find the same "drift" phenomenon if you look at the trends in posts on any topic.


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## Tom (Feb 20, 2013)

Yes we do see a lot of that here. We also see a lot of ignoring the obvious.

As an anecdote: A few months ago I took in a large adult female sulcata that was in need of a home. Her beak was very overgrown and much worse on one side. I decided to give her some time to settle in before I put her through the beak trimming experience. I kept an eye on her and she was able to eat just fine. Slowly but surely, with all the natural grazing at my place, her beak has broken off and/or worn down to a normal state. I don't feed her on a slate. She eats grass hay, cactus pads, and whatever copius quantities of grasses and weeds that grow in her pen. I was pleasantly surprised by this, as I was not looking forward to grabbing her head, clipping and dremmeling.

Just sharing a story with a happy ending. Of course some still need to be trimmed and I've done quite a few of those too. I've never thought that feeding on a slate did much of anything, but it's easier not to argue with every little thing, and maybe it HAS helped some tortoises some of the time. I don't see how it could do any harm, and it helps keep the food off of the substrate, so I've just let it be.


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## biochemnerd808 (Feb 20, 2013)

Yes, I would imagine that putting a tortoise into a somewhat natural setting (such as grazing!) would definitely help wear down an overgrown beak! I have also seen some of the fosters and rescues I've cared for 'filing' their beak on the rocks I provide. 

I think that a well-fed (not underweight) tortoise would be able to wear down an overgrown beak, provided time and a natural environment where he is biting, tearing, grazing on tough material. However, in an indoor environment where greens (even tough greens like collards) are provided, they are unlikely to wear it down. 
In the case of Boo (pictured above) he was so underweight, and had such a hard time eating, I prioritized trimming it, and he was finally able to eat. 

I think just like with any medical intervention, it is important to weigh cost (stress to the animal from being grabbed and trimmed) and benefit (easier eating) on a case-by-case basis. 

The 'trim the beak' vs 'just feed on a slate' is mostly just an example I chose to show how important it is to go back to primary literature sources, ask experienced keepers, etc, rather than just taking what we read in today's thread at face value.  
Especially since I can't imagine the experts want to write the same thing again and again, so their wisdom gets lost in the midst of a lot of chatter. 



Tom said:


> Yes we do see a lot of that here. We also see a lot of ignoring the obvious.
> 
> As an anecdote: A few months ago I took in a large adult female sulcata that was in need of a home. Her beak was very overgrown and much worse on one side. I decided to give her some time to settle in before I put her through the beak trimming experience. I kept an eye on her and she was able to eat just fine. Slowly but surely, with all the natural grazing at my place, her beak has broken off and/or worn down to a normal state. I don't feed her on a slate. She eats grass hay, cactus pads, and whatever copius quantities of grasses and weeds that grow in her pen. I was pleasantly surprised by this, as I was not looking forward to grabbing her head, clipping and dremmeling.
> 
> Just sharing a story with a happy ending. Of course some still need to be trimmed and I've done quite a few of those too. I've never thought that feeding on a slate did much of anything, but it's easier not to argue with every little thing, and maybe it HAS helped some tortoises some of the time. I don't see how it could do any harm, and it helps keep the food off of the substrate, so I've just let it be.


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## Team Gomberg (Feb 20, 2013)

I read so much about "feeding on slate" when i first jumped into the tortoise world. I personally never bothered with that route. I didn't believe it. 
I wanted to let my tortoise graze, and so i have. What i started doing from the beginning when i had to feed store greens or plucked weeds from the yard, was to chip clip the leaves into a mini bush and pack it in the substrate. This way my tort is still "grazing". I've been glad to never need to trim his beak.

On the other hand, i have taken in a few torts and turtles to foster etc and have trimmed all of their beaks on day 1 of coming to me. 

Even my new Russian got a trim on his first night with me. Now that he will only be grazing, i hope to find his break maintains well without trimming. 

The only food I've ever put on tile/ slate/ rocks has been Mazuri and grassland tortoise pellets but that is to keep them of the dirt not to file the tortoise beaks.


Btw, i opened this thread because i thought you were going to discuss trimming parrot beaks! Ha... Which i have lots of experience doing so i was kinda excited


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## biochemnerd808 (Feb 20, 2013)

Haha, parrots... sorry to disappoint you.  

I like the idea of the chip clip. Make them work a little to get their food. 



Team Gomberg said:


> I read so much about "feeding on slate" when i first jumped into the tortoise world. I personally never bothered with that route. I didn't believe it.
> I wanted to let my tortoise graze, and so i have. What i started doing from the beginning when i had to feed store greens or plucked weeds from the yard, was to chip clip the leaves into a mini bush and pack it in the substrate. This way my tort is still "grazing". I've been glad to never need to trim his beak.
> 
> On the other hand, i have taken in a few torts and turtles to foster etc and have trimmed all of their beaks on day 1 of coming to me.
> ...


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## CourtneyAndCarl (Feb 21, 2013)

Ohh the chip clip idea is fascinating!

I haven't had my tort for very long so I can't add too much to the discussion, but I feed him on a slab of rock when he's inside during the winter, to keep the food from getting covered in dirt. Personally, I have not once seen his beak scrape the rock or anything like that, so I have always kind of wondered why people say to feed them on the rock for beak trimming purposes. But, on the flip side, his beak stays nice and short. 

I wonder if overgrown beaks are more a matter of poor husbandry elsewhere, like MBD as you mentioned, and if they are really all that associated with how and where the tortoise is eating. Maybe?


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## N2TORTS (Feb 21, 2013)

Just a side note â€¦..another very helpful item that serves two purposes ....*Cuttle Bone*......Some large pieces strewn around your enclosure will provide a natural grinding stone for the torts as well as the benefits of the calcium uptake. All of my RF's go nuts for the stuff...and it must have some odor they are attracted to because they can smell the stuff a mile away , although I donâ€™t think it smells all that much ...
JD~


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## DesertGrandma (Feb 21, 2013)

Yeah Biochem I have felt the same way as you at times. When you need/want to hear from the experts often someone with no experience just parrots something they have read on here. After awhile you get to know who to listen to. But, I am also sure there has been a lot of good basic information parroted to newbies, so that is a good thing and has its usefulness.


Just a reminder not always to take everything you read on the forum at face value... at least not based just on a few posts. 
[/quote]


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## RedfootsRule (Feb 21, 2013)

Parroting has its uses, but it does seem overabundant here. Then again, its usually used by well-meaning people. Even if they don't understand it, they (usually) do it (parroting) to help a new owner, which is admirable. When a newbie comes on to ask a basic question, it can be answered pretty quickly with parroted information. So its not all bad...Now when you get into other things, health topics and such, it could be a little dangerous.
It seems a few topics especially...Like "bullying". I see it all the time "Don't keep two tortoises together, they're going to bully" yada yada. Half of the time, its misinformation. And with everyone's knack of listing their torts in their signature, its pretty easy to tell they don't have experience in that subject.
But then, what are you defining as a "parrot"? Someone who repeats information they don't understand completely, or have not applied themselves? Because otherwise, everyone's information is parroted or "regurgitated"....
I too thought we were talking about parrots and overgrown beaks, glad I'm not the only one who was confused .

Personally, as far as overgrown beaks go, I leave rocks in the cage...They chew on them. I leave nice chunks of limestone all over the place...Calcium and a beak file . I catch them nibbling at it all the time. I've never had to file a beak (on a tortoise that is, parrots are another story), and I don't want to ! I have no desire to ever put a tortoise in a head-lock...


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## wellington (Feb 21, 2013)

My two cents about parroting, I do it and so do most every member here. We had this argument before. Unless you thought up the idea, lets say, then you are parroting. If you learned how to take care for your torts by reading a book, post, thread, lecture, whatever, and then passed that info one too someone, you just parroted. As for the slate. I only have one leopard. He has eaton on a piece of flag stone since the day I got him. His beak shows no over growth at all. For me, I feel it's a better way to keep it down, works for me. As for over grown beaks, I have never had that of course. However, the advice I have parroted has been from who i consider the experts on here, the ones i will listen to and has been recommended due to the fact I am sure that the experts have done it and seen it work. Also, way less stress for the animal, which is usually a newbie to their home and haven't even settled in yet. Besides, there is a way for them to be able to eat their food with a little effort. I have also seen post and/or threads, where the flat slate has worked for lots of members. I'm still quite a new owner of only one tort, only two years so far. However, i am on here ALL the time learning. I would not want to chance trimming. I also would not want to pay the $99.00 for just walking into a exotic/reptile Vet Office, when I could just throw a piece of slate down and see if that would take care of the problem. For you that have the experience in lots of rescues and trimming, the advice isn't really meant for you. For us newer owners/members, less experienced, the slate is the way to go, at least in the beginning.if it doesn't happen to work, well then the trimming will have to be considered.


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## RedfootsRule (Feb 21, 2013)

I agree wellington, thats why I asked how we define "parroting". Everything is regurgitated, even from the "experts".


Perhaps, for the uses of the "parroting discussion" (assuming we care to continue it), it needs to be defined a little more. I think we need two definitions.

(1) Parroting: Repeating information one does not understand, nor has applied themselves in captive situations, within their own animals, and has simply read somewhere.
(2) Regurgitated information: Repeating information that one has read elsewhere, but carefully considered the pros and cons, understood fully, and applied it themselves in captive situations, in their own animals. (This is where everyone on this forum falls.)


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## jaizei (Feb 21, 2013)

"Parroting" and "regurgitated" are or should be considered insulting and not something to be proud of. They suggest that you are mimicking without understanding or spewing forth information that you have not digested. Ever wonder why there is so much misinformation out there? 

It has nothing to do with something being an original idea. It is about putting that idea into practice before spamming the forum with advice that you don't know the veracity of.


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## jaizei (Feb 21, 2013)

"Parroting" and "regurgitated" are or should be considered insulting and not something to be proud of. They suggest that you are mimicking without understanding or spewing forth information that you have not digested. Ever wonder why there is so much misinformation out there? 

It has nothing to do with something being an original idea. It is about putting that idea into practice before spamming the forum with advice that you don't know the veracity of.


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## jaizei (Feb 21, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> (1) Parroting: Repeating information one does not understand, nor has applied themselves in captive situations, within their own animals, and has simply read somewhere.
> (2) Regurgitated information: Repeating information that one has read elsewhere, but carefully considered the pros and cons, understood fully, and applied it themselves in captive situations, in their own animals. (This is where everyone on this forum falls.)



You seem to have trouble grasping the concept of 'regurgitated'. It is spewing information that one has not fully digested. One has not weighed the pros or cons, nor do they understand it fully or have applied it. For the most part it is synonymous with parroting. 

Also, I think both words have negative connotations for a reason. They are intended to be insults describing an undesirable behavior. Ever wonder why there is so much misinformation?


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## RedfootsRule (Feb 21, 2013)

jaizei said:


> RedfootsRule said:
> 
> 
> > (1) Parroting: Repeating information one does not understand, nor has applied themselves in captive situations, within their own animals, and has simply read somewhere.
> ...



Which would be the very reason I decided to define it, or at least my definition. The definition is all that matters here...You have a different one then me. Yours is what I listed as "parroted". I defined "regurgitated" differently, because there are those members here that wish to insist they aren't "parroters", the kind that would apply to anyone repeating information that they have learned elsewhere. I defined "regurgitated" that way, for those people. This is the very reason I decided to split it into two different definitions. There is NO cause for argument here, so please do not start one.

Again, perhaps your definition, not mine. I see no reason why either one must carry any kind of insulting undertone. "Parroters" are well-meaning people, and its not necessarily an undesirable behavior. Cause for misinformation? Partially is possible. There is a myriad of other reasons however that are far larger contributors; even the "experts" give out misinformation sometimes, its unavoidable. Its not their fault they don't have the amount of experience, (or amount of tortoises) that others have, so therefore they are forced to "parrot", because they want to help. Neither meaning needs to be an insult; I merely defined them so there is no confusion here.


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## wellington (Feb 21, 2013)

I guess I don't consider parroting or regurgitating, as a bad thing when the info I am parroting or regurgitating comes from members I feel have the most knowledge and experience. Usually it seems more then the ones throwing the "parroting" word around. When I first joined. I learned the most about caring for my leopard from Tom. I not only asked with threads, but I sent many a pm's to him. He never not answered a question or concern. He was kind, caring and shared all his knowledge with me. I have since, always carried his threads in my signature. I had someone dislike the fact that I pushed Toms threads when ever I could. They didn't like that it wasn't my experience I was passing on. They thought I should only push and pretty much pass on only what I knew from experience. Funny thing. Tom has thanked me for passing on his knowledge and threads. Many members have thanked me for passing Toms threads onto them. The ones that don't seem to want to thank people like me, the parrots and regurgitators, are those that don't participate much, don't help many, and have not showed or shared any real knowledge on this forum. They can only start these kinds of threads that bash the ones that will pass on what they have learned from the more experienced, more knowledgeable, and more sharing of their experiences and knowledge. Do I, or anyone else have to experience something in order to believe or know it works or not? No, I know and not by experience, that if I point a loaded gun at someone and pull that trigger, that person will either die or get injured. Do I just answer people's questions with made up mumble jumble? No, I pass on what I have learned from the members of this forum, that I choose to believe and listen too. Unfortunately, it never seems to be one of the members starting these kinds of threads. Do I try to fool people into thinking I am an expert? No, there are many post where I either had to explain, that the threads and knowledge I am passing on is Toms, or what i have learned from this forum. I'd like to know from these members that starts these kind of threads, what have you passed on that you have not just regurgitated or parroted? I don't think you need to have hands on experience of everything you pass on. Because I am on this forum a lot, I know there would be a lot of unanswered threads and probably a lot more poorly kept tortoises if it weren't for us parrots passing on what we have learned from this forum. A handful of people can't answer everything. Now, I am not trying to start a debate, argument, or anything close. I am just tired of these kinds of threads, that usually come from not so active members.


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## N2TORTS (Feb 21, 2013)

<perk> Did someone mention " Parrots" ?
.....Don't forget them "too's"


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## jaizei (Feb 21, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> jaizei said:
> 
> 
> > RedfootsRule said:
> ...



Seeing how many see the two as synonymous (or close to it), your definition seems to be the outlier, as should be obvious by the previous thread.

The whole reason to use the word 'regurgitated' is because they are not digesting (processing) the information. This is counter to your definition. Also, since when do we change definitions to suit peoples feelings. Change the definition instead of changing their behavior? 

One "expert" making a mistake is one "expert" making a mistake. It's a problem when 9 others agree with or repeat the "expert" simply because of who it is.


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## RedfootsRule (Feb 21, 2013)

jaizei said:


> RedfootsRule said:
> 
> 
> > jaizei said:
> ...



Your definition of regurgitated is my definition of parroting. Will it make you happy if I change my definition of regurgitated to simply repeated or digested? I'm not going to argue something so ridiculously pointless, because thats exactly what you are doing. You are arguing with me over my definition of the word. My definition is not your definition. End of story. I won't continue to respond to something so pointless.


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## Jacqui (Feb 21, 2013)

Stepping in to just remind folks don't go making this personal. Please stay on topic with no bashing each other.


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## jaizei (Feb 21, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> jaizei said:
> 
> 
> > RedfootsRule said:
> ...



Do we each get our own versions of "the truth" and "facts" also? 

Your definition is wrong.


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## biochemnerd808 (Feb 21, 2013)

I don't so much (or rather, not at all) have a problem with valid knowledge being repeated. 
My problem is more with a) incomplete information being shared or b) unquestioningly repeating something that was heard somewhere, but without being relatively sure it is true, ever investigating the source, or checking if it actually applies to the situation. A parrot doesn't question what he is saying. He repeats it. (Feed on a slate! Vitashell is bad!) - it may or may not be true. The fact that it has been repeated again and again and again doesn't make it more or less true, at least from a scientific perspective. 

I don't think every little thing needs an 'expert' to chime in. I think it is good that laypeople (like myself?) are able to help others on here. I am no expert, but I do know a little bit more than someone who just bought a tortoise. I know WAY less than someone who has been keeping tortoises for 30 years. A lot of my experience is related to rescuing and rehabilitating tortoises, but I am a complete n00b concerning breeding. I am so thankful for all the info that is available on here.

By the definition below, regurgitating information is not a problem, although I wouldn't call it that because regurgitation doesn't imply any digestion. I would call it 'passing on knowledge? 



> (2) Regurgitated information: Repeating information that one has read elsewhere, but carefully considered the pros and cons, understood fully, and applied it themselves in captive situations, in their own animals.



It's the parroting that I don't like. The beak issue isn't really the heart of what I want to discuss in this thread, it was just an example. A well fed tortoise with an overgrown beak can probably be allowed to wear it down on their own. Norbert/Stumpy hadn't been fed for 6 months when he came into my care. He was 5.5 inches long and weighed less than 250g. He had a terribly overgrown beak. Eating was difficult, but at least he tried - we held off on trimming, and he actually got it stuck on something and it broke off. Boo was underweight and had an overgrown beak, and he just couldn't eat. He tried, but just couldn't. He had to lean his head waaaay back to pull into his shell. So we trimmed it. 

On a side note, it usually isn't necessary to put a tortoise in a head lock to trim a beak. I have only had to do that with one tortoise, ever. Even the shyest tortoise can be tricked, with a lot of patience, and 'freehanding' it is safe if you use the proper tools.  But that is for a different discussion thread.


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## Yellow Turtle (Feb 21, 2013)

Here we go again. If you mention about parroting and not making this forum produces more unnecessary threads, then you too should bother to check that there is already exactly similar thread by Will not to long ago...

Maybe moderator should sticky 1 thread, which offers links to all important threads which they think coming from experts. Then we all can stop parroting and start replying newbies threads by simply saying "have you checked this stickied threads"...


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## RedfootsRule (Feb 21, 2013)

I agree with you. I suppose "regurgitated" isn't the best word to use for it, because yeah it doesn't imply "digestion". Its a word. I used it because we had this discussion a month or two ago...I believe thats the one Welligton was referring to. A couple members that thought they were better then all of those that gave out "regurgitated" information. I tried to explain to them that ALL information, from anybody, I don't care who, is regurgitated. Thats why I defined it the way I did.
Parroting and regurgitating, in my book, are different things. Just how I define them. There is nothing wrong with regurgitation, by my definition. Parroting, for the most part, is okay, because like I said...well-meaning members just trying to help. Just because they don't have the experience or have applied it themselves doesn't mean they can't repeat it. Like Wellington said...He took it from people he trusts and has seen it apply it themselves, and then repeated it. There is nothing wrong with that.


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## lynnedit (Feb 21, 2013)

I think this thread, at least originally, had a different concept to it than Will's post. But it has drifted away from that concept, which I believe proves the point.

Regardless, there will be multiple posts that are repeated. And that is how we all learn. That is how new members learn. 
Sometimes you can do a search and you can't find exactly what you need. Or, if you are a new member, you might not know about the option of doing a search. 
I hope people, including myself, keep asking questions, even if they are repetitive. That means that at least one more tortoise will have a chance at good care. And I believe that is the point.
Hopefully, over time, we will all do enough research and apply enough common sense to sift through and get the best information for our needs.

And I think Sally wonders what all the fuss is about!


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## N2TORTS (Feb 22, 2013)

lynnedit said:


> I think this thread, at least originally, had a different concept to it than Will's post. But it has drifted away from that concept, which I believe proves the point.
> 
> Regardless, there will be multiple posts that are repeated. And that is how we all learn. That is how new members learn.
> Sometimes you can do a search and you can't find exactly what you need. Or, if you are a new member, you might not know about the option of doing a search.
> ...



GREAT POINTS you present Lynn'....and Sally just laughs at all of this !


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