# do zoos have a "humane" requirement for enclosure sizes?



## moswen (Nov 15, 2010)

i'm sure animals at zoos get the absolute best diet, care, and vet attention that any animals could get, but those cages are just so small. i recently discovered that the tulsa zoo has 2 radiated tortoises (never knew it before because they're in the bird and monkey building, that place is so loud and it smells like you-know-what. whoever decided, "hey, i'm going to put the two loudest animals on the planet in one indoor space together!" should be fired.) and they are in the smallest cage... oh it looks all nice with fake tree roots coming out from the walls and plants hainging down from the ceiling, but i swear that cage is smaller than my hatchling spider enclosure, which is 2.5'x4'. poor tortoises barely have room to pace the walls!

and some of the other animals, the medium sized monkeys and the lions and tigers, their cages are tiny too!


----------



## Marty333 (Nov 15, 2010)

I agree that the enclosures at zoo's are way to small. At my zoo I feel mostly bad for the elephants because they only have a very limited amount of space here is a pic





I think Animal Kingdom has actually very good enclosures but then again its not really a zoo


----------



## moswen (Nov 15, 2010)

oh yes elephants too! and right now, tulsa has even smaller spaces for their elephants because they are mating all the oklahoma city female elephants, and they're all prego now, so there will be BABIES too! all in one area that was designed for 3 elephants.


----------



## Marty333 (Nov 15, 2010)

Also I think better enclosures would attract more people. I would rather see a happy elephant in an appropriate space that resembles its native habitat instead of an Industrial looking havitat.


----------



## sara (Nov 15, 2010)

I agree that zoos should have much larger areas for their animals. but unfortunately most them just dont have the room or the money. But at least the nicer ones have clean pens and the animals are given the proper diets for that species and they have 24 hour vet care. also they do have breeding programs so that animals can be shared among ather zoos and not have to go through the trauma of being wild caught. And people can appreciate them and learn. 
And these are the nicer ones. think of all the not nice ones out there. now thats a tragedy.


----------



## Yvonne G (Nov 15, 2010)

In order to be accredited by the AZA the habitats have to meet certain criterion. If they don't, they are not allowed to get any more animals.


----------



## moswen (Nov 15, 2010)

this is good to know yvonne. are they really strict guidelines? the puppy mills have to meet "guidelines" too, but those guidelines allow for caged flooring and pens 2x the size of the animal. in my opinion that's not really humane, and those guidelines aren't even enforced. and when an inspector comes to check out the mill, when they enter their findings into the computer, the answers all automatically default to "good" unless the inspecter goes in and manually changes the answers.

lol, i'm not calling zoos puppy mills! my daughter loves the zoo, it only makes me sad. what type of criteria do the zoo habitats have to meet?


----------



## chairman (Nov 15, 2010)

A link to some publicly available AVA guidelines:

http://www.aza.org/animal-care-manuals/

Sadly, it looks like you need to be a member to see all of the manuals... but I checked out the sheet on the condor, and it did list space requirements.


----------



## Floof (Nov 15, 2010)

I don't know anything about guidelines and requirements... But this is one of Colorado Springs's AZA accredited Cheyenne Mountain Zoo's hatchling tortoise "habitats"...





And there were... What, 2 other tanks like this? It was depressing. Plus the room was exceptionally dark, and there wasn't a single light source (UVB or otherwise) anywhere--not even over their adult DT's habitat.


----------



## terryo (Nov 15, 2010)

The Bronx Zoo is pretty good.
http://www.bronxzoo.com/animals-and-exhibits.aspx


----------



## Madkins007 (Nov 15, 2010)

The AZA criteria are, as I understand it from insiders, almost crazy tough and strictly enforced. They want to know not only what the diet is, but what it is based on, where do the food items come from, how is it prepared, how quality is maintained and documented, how the animal is actually fed, and proof this is all done every time. Also, every time an animal is sick or dies, it is logged and reported.

Many zoos use a 2-pen system where one animal is in a display pen while another is behind the scenes in a housing pen. Our local zoo has an indoor rain forest, and almost every animal in there is rotated to minimize stress.

Oh, and if you decide to blow off the AZA criteria, there are other federal agencies that pay attention to you instead, although they are less funded and staffed.

I'm not going to argue that zoos are perfect, they are more of a different track of reality. The way they view animals is very different than the way we hobbyists and local-level breeders do.


----------



## Laura (Nov 15, 2010)

Yes there are size requirements that vary between species. Most Zoos offer bigger then the required space. 
Elephants in the wild have to walk many miles to find food and water. It also natually keeps thier feet 'filed' and in good shape. In captivity, they are fed and watered and have no need to walk for miles.. but that also makes a need for the keepers to 'groom' them and file thier feet for them. So they have to be trained to accept this. 
Yes, Id rather see them in more natural exhibits with grass and trees and more space, but most zoos dont have the land area and the gardening skills to keep up with the damage they would do eating all the pretty trees we want to see!


----------



## terryo (Nov 15, 2010)

Look into the Bronx Zoo...they have pretty neat enclosures.


----------



## Terry Allan Hall (Nov 15, 2010)

When was a youngster, Ft. Worth's Forest Park Zoo had a Kodiak bear in a cage just a bit larger than it was...pretty miserable existance. 

Nowdays, it's a much, much nicer place!


----------



## moswen (Nov 15, 2010)

well, i'm very happy to know it's a strict thing. glad that thought is no longer plauging me!

taylor--- that is the worst pyramided pancake i have literally ever seen in my life. the poor guy barely even has room to turn around. where's his rock wall that he's supposed to be able to hide in? that is WAY worse than tulsa's radiated enclosure.


----------



## tortoisenerd (Nov 15, 2010)

I too have seen many animal enclosures in zoos that made me sad, but Mark had a good point that many zoos do have other enclosures. The tort ones especially are tough on the heartstrings, as they remind me of pet store housing many times with the cramped glass enclosure with bad air circulation, poor diet, and often no water dish and lacking adequate hides. A lot of good does come out of zoos though. And, I have seen some really good zoo exhibits and programs.


----------



## Floof (Nov 15, 2010)

moswen said:


> taylor--- that is the worst pyramided pancake i have literally ever seen in my life. the poor guy barely even has room to turn around. where's his rock wall that he's supposed to be able to hide in? that is WAY worse than tulsa's radiated enclosure.



I think it was some sort of star tortoise, actually. I wish I'd taken a pic of its label.

To be honest, the rest of the zoo was pretty impressive, with nice, mostly spacious habitats. It was just the reptile house where they failed so miserably (the snakes were in cramped quarters, too). To me, at least, the fact that the rest of the zoo was so well done just made the unsatisfactory reptile habitats that much more upsetting.


----------



## Angi (Nov 15, 2010)

I live in San Diego and our Zoo is fabulous Here is a strange story though. I bought my first house in Escondido 15 years ago from a couple that both worked at the Wild Animal Park. They had a tortoise in an aquarium that was probably too small, it did not have an outside enclosure and they said it got sick from eating the sand in the aquarium. Shouldn't these people have known better?! At the time I knew nothing about torts, but after a year I have learned enough to know their care was way off.


----------



## Kalina (Nov 16, 2010)

I live 5 minutes away from our local zoo, I've been there a few times but everytime it makes me want to cry. The big cats (Lions/Tigers) are kept in small enclosures, I can guarantee that whenever I go to visit the zoo these animals will be sleeping. Most other animals tend to pace around the edge of the enclosures just so they have something to do. The monkeys are the worst for me to look at, they're very bored and you can see it in their eyes, they just sit there with a blank look. I've visited a few zoo's and in my experience, they don't offer humane housing conditions for the animals, not saying all Zoo's are like that, I'm yet to visit one that doesn't want to make me cry : (


----------



## Madkins007 (Nov 16, 2010)

Kalina- odd you should mention cats. I spoke with some zoo people about this years ago.

One of the sad things in some zoos are pacing cats. This usually means they have quite literally gone crazy in their habitat- it is a real, apparently incurable, psychosis. Zoos and behavioral experts worked hard to figure out the why and how and found that wild cats have a series of home ranges. The den is the smallest range. Then there is the 'front yard' (not the real name, but what I think of it as) where they lounge, stretch, play, etc.- then the hunting range- which can be miles.

They actually do better, behaviorally and otherwise, if their enclosure is a bit smaller than the 'front yard' range. If the enclosure is bigger than the 'front yard' it seems to make them think they are in their hunting range and triggers the psychosis. There is not a perfect formula for how big the 'front yard' is- it varies by subspecies, numbers, physical size and age, dominance, etc. 

The goal is to try to find the right 'front yard' range, and they try to do this by watching behaviors. There are key behaviors that signal stress or the beginnings of the disease- and sleeping is considered a good sign! 


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I don't mention this bit often since I am a big fan of zoos, but I may as well admit that I also know that many zoos have many 'disposable' animals- animals that are cheap, draw some eyeballs but are nothing special, and do not get a lot of keeper attention. Sadly, a lot of reptiles in a lot of zoos fall in this group. No zoo in their right mind will knowingly mistreat a Flat-tailed Tortoise, but they can get Sulcatas and iguanas for a dime a dozen, so why fuss over them?

This should not be read to imply that they knowingly mistreat them, but if there is only a limited number of resources available (time, man-hours, money, etc.), then other animals get the attention first. Other disposable animals are things like lions, a lot of the antelopes, lots of the birds, etc.

- - - - - - - - - -- 

As another aside- I know elephants get mentioned a lot, and most zoos have a love-hate relationship with them. They are HUGELY popular with visitors- overall, elephants get more visitors than other animals. Zoos that stop showing elephants almost always lose attendance big time, zoos that add them increase attendance. But, these are big, intelligent animals that need a lot of space, a lot of food, a lot of cares, and a lot of enrichments. They are social, so you need a small herd and that compounds all of the other problems. Add to the mix that they are a fairly dangerous animal and it is no wonder zoos have mixed feelings about them.

Is it any wonder that so many zoos are doing butterfly exhibits? Cheap, easy to feed, easy to house, fun, and popular. 'Walk through' sections are great for zoos, but hard to stock with good animals. Butterflies are great for this.


----------



## Candy (Nov 16, 2010)

I have changed my opinion so much with age about putting these animals behind bars or caging them up so we can supposedly learn from them. What do we learn from them really? Shouldn't we be teaching our children how they really live in the wild? After all we don't really have to show them what an elephant looks like up close do we? How will it hurt them if we didn't? Aren't there better ways to educate children about certain species of animals? We certainly shouldn't be teaching them that this is how they live in real life. I mean to tell the truth when I took my kids to the zoo when they were younger it's not like I offered any real information to them other then "This is a lion or this is an elephant". I never told them how they got there to begin with and how they actually live in the wild. My 25 year old just went not to long ago with a friend and called me from there and told me how sad he was feeling for them in their cages and how he was not enjoying his trip at all. I was very glad to hear that from him because to me it shows empathy towards these creatures that we feel the need to capture and put on display again for our own pleasure. If we need to keep animals in certain areas then I'd much rather see animal parks or sanctuaries for them. Mark your post was extremely sad to me. I didn't know that about the tigers and the lions. See that's something I bet kids don't learn about from any of the zoo keeper's when they're telling them about the animals.


----------



## Madkins007 (Nov 17, 2010)

Candy said:


> I have changed my opinion so much with age about putting these animals behind bars or caging them up so we can supposedly learn from them. What do we learn from them really? Shouldn't we be teaching our children how they really live in the wild? After all we don't really have to show them what an elephant looks like up close do we? How will it hurt them if we didn't? Aren't there better ways to educate children about certain species of animals? We certainly shouldn't be teaching them that this is how they live in real life. I mean to tell the truth when I took my kids to the zoo when they were younger it's not like I offered any real information to them other then "This is a lion or this is an elephant". I never told them how they got there to begin with and how they actually live in the wild. My 25 year old just went not to long ago with a friend and called me from there and told me how sad he was feeling for them in their cages and how he was not enjoying his trip at all. I was very glad to hear that from him because to me it shows empathy towards these creatures that we feel the need to capture and put on display again for our own pleasure. If we need to keep animals in certain areas then I'd much rather see animal parks or sanctuaries for them. Mark your post was extremely sad to me. I didn't know that about the tigers and the lions. See that's something I bet kids don't learn about from any of the zoo keeper's when they're telling them about the animals.



Lions and tigers: I don't see why it would be sad. There was a problem, and good people with good intentions worked hard and solved it. You rarely see psychotically pacing cats in good zoos any more. 

Reason for zoos: Ask almost any modern zoo administrator why they imprison animals like this and they will tell you about animals as ambassadors, about fostering a relationship between humans and wild animals. About how we will not care for that which we do not understand and appreciate. 

I have to admit I am baffled by your suggestion that getting close to an elephant is not important. How does one convey the majesty of an elephant through a TV screen? To me, this is like suggesting that I can replace your pets with robotic toys and you should be OK. There is a real connection that can be made when one sees a real animal. Certainly it would be best to do this in the wild, but that is not an option for most of us.

Sure, a lot of people treat zoos like some sort of a cross between a circus and a museum. I am often unsure whether to laugh or cry when I see adults shuffling kids past cage after cage with no attempt to learn or appreciate what is going on. But every so often you will see things working right. People discussing how the beauty of this animal helps it camouflage itself, fascination over this animal's eyes and wondering why they are that way. People looking at a creepy crawly and going from 'eeeww!' to 'cool!' One of the great joys of parenthood is helping your kids really understand what they see.

God, I loved taking my young kids to the zoo. We had a membership, so we rarely even tried to do it all at once (and ours is a largish zoo- voted one of the best in the world!) We would hit, say, the rainforest and just wander. Stop and watch animals that were moving and watch what they did, how they ate, how they interacted. 

There are free-flying fruit bats in our rainforest and one of their favorite activities was to find where they were and watch them feed. My kids, in grade school, would often talk to people walking quickly past the 'nasty bats' about how these bats only ate fallen fruit and were considered good luck. 

One time, I was playing the goofy adult- an easy role for me I assure you- and was renaming the animals. My kids had a great time trying to correct me, or playing along. The place is full of Thirteen-line Spermophiles (Ground Squirrels) that I tried to convince my kids were Dwarf Striped Cheetahs that had escaped and were going to eat us. My son in the 4th or 5th grade pointed out that they have the wrong eye placement to be predators. 

God, I love zoos!


----------



## NEtorts (Nov 17, 2010)

one of my favorite zoos is the Lowry park zoo in Tampa FL because of the way they display their animals so that it is kid friendly..... I have been there many times and always been happy with the exhibits......one of the worst reptile exhibits I have seen was at the Franklin Park zoo in Boston Ma..... they had an adult redfoot in a fish tank with a Python and there were so many roots and logs that the red could not even roam around, it was dirty and the redfoot was severly deformed (although he could have been like that when they got him) they were not doing it any favors!! The St Louis Zoo was very nice and had awsome snake exhibits when I was there as well as a sweet Aldab/galop exhibit....


----------



## Seiryu (Nov 17, 2010)

toxodon said:


> I actually like the Detroit zoo. It is about what, 60 mile from Detroit so never got why they called it that.



Lol not quite! It's actually only a couple miles away from detroit. I lived about 5 minutes from the zoo and the city I lived in (Ferndale) bordered detroit.

It really is a great zoo. Not what it used to be though. They seem to be cutting back on animals. The reptile house definitely could use an upgrade. Radiated tortoises in a maybe 3x7 ft enclosure (2 sub adults).


----------



## jobeanator (Nov 17, 2010)

i think most zoo's are pretty good about being humane to the animals they have, the zoo's acredited by the AZA is usually something you look for when going to a zoo. when they are approved by the AZA they have to pass strict test and check to see if the animals are being treated fairly and taken care of properly. its funny this topic is brought up, literally today we were talking about this in my college animal management class today.


----------



## terryo (Nov 17, 2010)

"I have to admit I am baffled by your suggestion that getting close to an elephant is not important. How does one convey the majesty of an elephant through a TV screen? To me, this is like suggesting that I can replace your pets with robotic toys and you should be OK."

So then I guess that the elephants just have to suffer so our children can see "the majesty of an elephant" in person. Yikes!!
I've taken my children to the Bronx Zoo and as we rode in an enclosed train, through a jungle like habitat, it was like sitting on a ledge for me. It was so beautiful, and the animals seemed so free compared to other Zoo's I've been to. But I did tell my children that it was only an illusion...that they weren't free, but it was the best that we had to offer them.


----------



## Badgemash (Nov 17, 2010)

I'll go ahead and throw in the point that zoos are in a unique position from a genetic standpoint. Many zoos have resources unavailable to regular people when it comes to captive breeding programs, especially when regarding endangered species. Many species have been greatly aided if not saved outright by the zoo breeding programs. I know I don't have the space or the money to look after Mexican wolves or northern white rhinos (or galops for that matter), but the zoo does.

I also feel like I should give my local zoo a shout out (Phoenix). We live really close by so I like to go there on weekends when it's not too hot. The animals seem well cared for, enclosures are fairly spacious and clean, and the staff members I talked to were very knowledgeable and cared deeply about the animals they looked after, especially the birds. My only complaint was that the Galop enclosure seemed small, although the grass is green and thick and they haven't eaten it all (like horses do when there are too many in a pasture). I also remember Omaha zoo being pretty nice, although it's been several years since I was last there (the cheetah habitat had to have been over 2 acres).


----------



## Madkins007 (Nov 17, 2010)

terryo said:


> "I have to admit I am baffled by your suggestion that getting close to an elephant is not important. How does one convey the majesty of an elephant through a TV screen? To me, this is like suggesting that I can replace your pets with robotic toys and you should be OK."
> 
> So then I guess that the elephants just have to suffer so our children can see "the majesty of an elephant" in person. Yikes!!
> I've taken my children to the Bronx Zoo and as we rode in an enclosed train, through a jungle like habitat, it was like sitting on a ledge for me. It was so beautiful, and the animals seemed so free compared to other Zoo's I've been to. But I did tell my children that it was only an illusion...that they weren't free, but it was the best that we had to offer them.



Did your kids appreciate the elephants more upon seeing them and learning about them? If the zoo (and to a different extent, you) did its job, they did. They learned something about their lives, their challenges, etc.

Like I said, elephants are a problem for zoos, and all I was trying to say is that no photo or video creates the same impression or compassion as seeing it eye to eye.


----------



## terryo (Nov 17, 2010)

Did your kids appreciate the elephants more upon seeing them and learning about them? If the zoo (and to a different extent, you) did its job, they did. They learned something about their lives, their challenges, etc.

Like I said, elephants are a problem for zoos, and all I was trying to say is that no photo or video creates the same impression or compassion as seeing it eye to eye.


[/quote]

You are absolutely right Mark. I raised 5 sons and out of the 5 only two totally embraced my views on caged animals after visiting the zoo.


----------



## Kalina (Nov 18, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> Kalina- odd you should mention cats. I spoke with some zoo people about this years ago.
> 
> One of the sad things in some zoos are pacing cats. This usually means they have quite literally gone crazy in their habitat- it is a real, apparently incurable, psychosis. Zoos and behavioral experts worked hard to figure out the why and how and found that wild cats have a series of home ranges. The den is the smallest range. Then there is the 'front yard' (not the real name, but what I think of it as) where they lounge, stretch, play, etc.- then the hunting range- which can be miles.
> 
> ...



Very interesting about the big cats, I've always been somewhat confused by the size of their enclosures, maybe the zoo's are trying to find the perfect range. I've been to zoo's where Tigers are pacing, but Lions always seem to be sleeping. I went to Chester Zoo in England, this Zoo is huge, but cat enclosures are small, a lot of people were making comments about the size of the cat enclosures, wouldn't you think the Zoo's would post something by the cats explaining the whole "range" thing?

I also walked thru a Bat cave, with free flying bats, you can feel them gliding past you when they get close, I loved it.

Zoo's can be a good thing, especially those with Conservation Efforts, I just wish they would offer the animals more humane conditions in which to live, and more importantly, more stimulation and enrichment. If you are going to house wild animals, please do it properly and humanely. In my opinion, their quality of life will never be as fulfilling as it would be in the wild, but it should be very close.


----------



## Madkins007 (Nov 18, 2010)

Zoo signs...If you want to make a zoo profession moan, as them about zoo signage. Most visitors barely read the signs, and it does not seem to matter much what they say.

If I asked you want you want in a zoo sign, you'll tell me things like name, scientific name, range, diet, and size. Then you start to suggest conservation-oriented issues- status, threats, etc. Then people want 'stories'- interesting tidbits and factoids.

I build you that sign and you'll spend an average of less than three seconds on it, and will have forgotten most of it within five minutes. This is all based on actual research. You can verify it for yourself by just watching zoo-goers. I have watched dozens of people walk past an apparently empty cage with just a quick glance at the signage. If they would have read it and paid attention, they would see the big sloth or whatever other only-barely hidden animal is in there.

Our zoo had a black jaguar named Tripod, with a sign outside the enclosure telling his story- not only about the missing leg, but also about black coloration. I could stand there and hear people go "Oh, poor dear, I wonder what happened to his leg" as they literally stood within 3 feet of the well-made sign.

How does the song go? "Signs signs, everywhere signs. Breaking up the scenery, breaking my mind". 

Of course, museums have the same problem, as does anywhere else where signs are used as the main way to impart information.


----------



## Kalina (Nov 18, 2010)

Hhmmm yes, people tend to not take the time to read the information on the signs regarding each animal... I do, I love to learn about animals and where they come from, their behavior and so forth. But yes, other people can't be bothered, maybe a public speaker would do the trick better...? : )


----------



## Badgemash (Nov 20, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> Our zoo had a black jaguar named Tripod, with a sign outside the enclosure telling his story- not only about the missing leg, but also about black coloration. I could stand there and hear people go "Oh, poor dear, I wonder what happened to his leg" as they literally stood within 3 feet of the well-made sign.



Funny, I've seen the same thing at the Phoenix zoo. There's a golden eagle who has a missing wing, the sign explains that he was rescued after being hit by a car. Yet no one reads the sign and you hear people muttering about it being cruel, and keeping deformed birds!


----------

