# So animals do feel like humans



## Candy (Aug 3, 2010)

Didn't we have a thread or something on here that someone stated that animals don't feel like humans do? Think again. 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100803/ap_on_re_us/us_ptsd_military_dogs_4


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## Tortuga_terrestre (Aug 3, 2010)

I thought it was a very interesting video. Search and Rescue dogs from various missions have issues from finding dead bodies. Dogs are almost like humans.


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## TylerStewart (Aug 3, 2010)

Come on, Candy, you have to fight the urge to agree with these things.... If not, Obama will be spending billions of dollars on mental health counseling for dogs. True or not, we can't afford to make a big deal about it.


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## Candy (Aug 3, 2010)

We could just call Cesar Milan he wouldn't cost that much.


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## chadk (Aug 3, 2010)

LOL. Clearly any animal can suffer various forms of trauma. Has nothing to do with how much it is or isn't "like a human". Just take a trip to the shelter and it will only take a few minutes to see the clear signs of animals that have been badly abused.


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## dmmj (Aug 3, 2010)

I am not touching this one.


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## Candy (Aug 4, 2010)

Oh too bad Dmmj I was so hoping that you would.


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## dmmj (Aug 4, 2010)

not even with a ten foot pole.


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## RichardS (Aug 4, 2010)

I think the dogs are reacting to the sounds and yelling more than seeing dead bodies... 

I thought this post was going to be about physical pain, not emotional!


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## Tortuga_terrestre (Aug 4, 2010)

Geeze, thats why I hate making comments on threads. Have any you ever deployed to another country and been under an extremely stressful situation? It leaves a mark regardless if your human or animal... Why shouldnt we spend money in the rehabilitation of these veterans? These Canines save lives! They are truly "Man's Best Friend".


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## Candy (Aug 4, 2010)

I agree 100%.


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## TylerStewart (Aug 4, 2010)

I'm all for spending money "rehabbing" dogs, I'm just against the use of taxpayer dollars for the project. It's always the people wanting to spend money on things like this that are paying little or no taxes to begin with. If the same people pulling for it were willing to foot the bill, they can spend to their heart's desire.


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## chadk (Aug 4, 2010)

Our veteran's get shafted enough as it is. It would be hard for me to justify taking resources that should go to helping a soldier and his family...


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## dmmj (Aug 4, 2010)

remeber there is no difference between people and dogs.


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## TylerStewart (Aug 4, 2010)

chadk said:


> Our veteran's get shafted enough as it is. It would be hard for me to justify taking resources that should go to helping a soldier and his family...



Agreed - if they're looking for something to spend money on, current and past military people should be the ones getting it.



dmmj said:


> remeber there is no difference between people and dogs.



That's true, at least from an off-track past debate, but genetically, there is a little difference. If I remember right, cows, mink and big abandoned sulcatas are all the same as people also.


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## Tortuga_terrestre (Aug 4, 2010)

TylerStewart said:


> I'm all for spending money "rehabbing" dogs, I'm just against the use of taxpayer dollars for the project. It's always the people wanting to spend money on things like this that are paying little or no taxes to begin with. If the same people pulling for it were willing to foot the bill, they can spend to their heart's desire.



People dont care about a subject until it effects their lives. For example: If the "Big One" were to hit California and you were stuck under a ton of concrete.... You are really going to care if that Search & Rescue Canine is on the top of its game...and not hesitate to find you. Dogs have important Jobs: Search & Rescue, Police, Narcotics, Bomb Squad, Working with the blind, Therapy Dogs....the list is endless.


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## TylerStewart (Aug 4, 2010)

I thought ahead, though, and don't live in California. Nevada is just about the least prone state to any natural disasters. Plus, if I was stuck under a concrete block in California, Tom will come get me. His dogs are at the top of their game already. 

My issue with it is that if the govt starts doing anything with it, they won't just spend a few bucks here, few bucks there. They'll throw billions towards it, and 90% of those billions will get sidetracked into building things that have nothing to do with dogs, or organizing a dog trainers union.

EDIT:


Tortuga_terrestre said:


> Im am currently enlisted in the U.S. Army...These Canines save lives...and are killed in the line of duty. They deserve treatment not disgarded after being used.



Just because a dog isn't getting face time with a therapist doesn't mean they're "discarded" after returning from a war zone. I would guess that just about 0% to 1% of these dogs become homeless after returning from war.


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## Tortuga_terrestre (Aug 4, 2010)

chadk said:


> Our veteran's get shafted enough as it is. It would be hard for me to justify taking resources that should go to helping a soldier and his family...



Im am currently enlisted in the U.S. Army...These Canines save lives...and are killed in the line of duty. They deserve treatment not disgarded after being used.


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## Candy (Aug 4, 2010)

Tortuga_terrestre said:


> TylerStewart said:
> 
> 
> > I'm all for spending money "rehabbing" dogs, I'm just against the use of taxpayer dollars for the project. It's always the people wanting to spend money on things like this that are paying little or no taxes to begin with. If the same people pulling for it were willing to foot the bill, they can spend to their heart's desire.
> ...



This is just about the best reply post I have ever seen. Thank you Walter for reminding us of what they do everyday.


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## chadk (Aug 4, 2010)

Tortuga_terrestre said:


> chadk said:
> 
> 
> > Our veteran's get shafted enough as it is. It would be hard for me to justify taking resources that should go to helping a soldier and his family...
> ...



Do you have reason to believe they are being 'discarded' after being used?


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## dmmj (Aug 4, 2010)

I remember after the twin towers fell , they used resuce dogs to search for survivors, 8 dogs died during the search, those dogs worked themselves to death to find people, after awhile of not finding people they had to "hide" people under debris so the dogs could "find" them and feel like they were doing their job.


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## Tortuga_terrestre (Aug 4, 2010)

chadk said:


> Tortuga_terrestre said:
> 
> 
> > chadk said:
> ...



By not giving or limiting services to these heroes is like discarding them. Would our government deny treatment to an injured Soldier or Marine? Because we are in a recession? I really hope not...because I am personally a member of the Armed Forces. I believe any working canine deserves the best of care. Did you know many Search & Rescue Dogs from the 9-11 rescue efforts at ground zero...died? They inhaled all those toxic fumes...and developed all sorts of upper respiritory infections...We take our 4 legged friends for granted.


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## chadk (Aug 4, 2010)

"We take them for granted"... No, not "WE". I sure don't. I love dogs and appreciate the work many of them do (others not so much).

Just saying that if we have limitted resources, I'd choose to help the soldier over the dog. Ideally we could help both. And as noted, I'm sure none of these dogs are being simply discarded.


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## Ickisrulz (Aug 4, 2010)

chadk said:


> Our veteran's get shafted enough as it is. It would be hard for me to justify taking resources that should go to helping a soldier and his family...



Not trying to take this too far off topic, but...

How do veteran's get shafted? I retired after 20+ years in the Air Force and there are nothing but opportunities and benefits for me. The United States does a fine job of taking care of its military and veterans. Take a look at the pay scale sometime. Not to mention the post 9-11 GI bill...VA loans and (for those retired) health care for life.


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## chadk (Aug 4, 2010)

Well, my only experience is watching the trouble my dad (vietnam vet) had with the VA here in the Seattle area.


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## Candy (Aug 4, 2010)

Ickisrulz said:


> chadk said:
> 
> 
> > Our veteran's get shafted enough as it is. It would be hard for me to justify taking resources that should go to helping a soldier and his family...
> ...



I think what they are referring to is the emotional part of coming home from a war. I know that's what I originally posted was about the dog coming home with emotional issues. Our government has had a long history of not dealing or revealing this sort of problem (right here I am referring to the men or women not the animal).


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## terryo (Aug 4, 2010)

dmmj said:


> I remember after the twin towers fell , they used resuce dogs to search for survivors, 8 dogs died during the search, those dogs worked themselves to death to find people, after awhile of not finding people they had to "hide" people under debris so the dogs could "find" them and feel like they were doing their job.



And THIS is about the scariest post I ever read. Can you please show some kind of proof to this statement David? I really would like to see this in print somewhere. And then I STILL wouldn't believe it. Some of the dogs there had to be brought out because their feet were so burned. These dogs were not able to walk for months until their pads healed. Others had to be put down, because of collapsed lungs. The smell of burning flesh that was in the air was insane. My whole house was filled with soot for months. Sometimes I lay in bed and think I'm still smelling it. The cemetery where my son is buried has graves with only a hand with a ring for identification. If it were not for these dogs, all the graves at Resurrection Cemetery,(and many, many other cemeteries) that only have parts of bodies in them would not be there. There would be NO closure for some families because there would be nothing to bury if not for these dogs. Please do not tell me that they had to hide people so that the dogs would think they were doing their jobs. You have NO idea what you are talking about. They did not need to find people to think they were doing their jobs. Their injuries were enough. People were bringing water to wet them down, clean their pads, and wrap them up so they could go back into the mess to find more body parts. Some were so tired and their lungs were filled with gasses, that they just laid on the sidewalk to wait to be picked up and taken away. Unless you were there, unless you saw it with your own eyes, and unless you lost a loved one, please don't.....just don't......


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Aug 4, 2010)

This post topic getting more depressing


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## terryo (Aug 4, 2010)

terryo said:


> dmmj said:
> 
> 
> > I remember after the twin towers fell , they used resuce dogs to search for survivors, 8 dogs died during the search, those dogs worked themselves to death to find people, after awhile of not finding people they had to "hide" people under debris so the dogs could "find" them and feel like they were doing their job.
> ...



I'm sorry about this post David....I'm sure you wouldn't have said that if you didn't read it somewhere. If you saw the chaos and these poor dogs panting, and limping....911 is just a very sore spot with me. I didn't mean to jump down your throat.


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## Candy (Aug 4, 2010)

I was wondering the same thing when he posted it Terry.  I like you would like to know where this kind of information came from. Lets see if DMMJ can post it for us.


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## dmmj (Aug 4, 2010)

here is the first one for mock finds 
http://dogsinthenews.com/issues/0109/articles/010926a.htm
Give me a little more time "candy" and I will post more


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## terryo (Aug 5, 2010)

That was a great post David. I mis-understood your original post. Now I know what you were talking about. Just seeing something like that, there shouldn't be any doubt in anyone's mind that the answer to Candy's post is YES.


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## chadk (Aug 5, 2010)

Why? It is a pretty broad statement based on emotions and hopeful thinking. "animals" is a pretty broad category. "Feel" is a pretty vague term. "like humans" is not going to something easily defined and since we can't put ourselves inside a animals brain, we can't say exactly what they 'feel', what types of 'feelings' they are capable of, and how close it is to humans and in what ways.


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## Jacqui (Aug 5, 2010)

dmmj said:


> not even with a ten foot pole.


Hands over an 11' pole...there ya go. No excuses now!


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## chadk (Aug 5, 2010)

Jacqui said:


> dmmj said:
> 
> 
> > not even with a ten foot pole.
> ...



Does that look something like this? 





(although I don't this this guy is actually Polish...)


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## Candy (Aug 5, 2010)

dmmj said:


> here is the first one for mock finds
> http://dogsinthenews.com/issues/0109/articles/010926a.htm
> Give me a little more time "candy" and I will post more



While reading this it made me feel sick to my stomach. Nobody should ever have to face this kind of a tragedy be it human or animal.



Morale is important... So it's my job as handler to remove her from the pile ... and then what we do is we set up a scenario for her that she can win at. We used a New York firefighter. He actually hid amongst a little bit of rubble ... and we sent her on a search. She finds the firefighter. He plays with her real good. She's real happy, and she's ready to go to work again."
Ã¢â‚¬â€ Mark Bogush, Tampa Fire Rescue, speaking about his partner "Marley"

O.K. DMMJ now I understand what you were writing.



chadk said:


> Why? It is a pretty broad statement based on emotions and hopeful thinking. "animals" is a pretty broad category. "Feel" is a pretty vague term. "like humans" is not going to something easily defined and since we can't put ourselves inside a animals brain, we can't say exactly what they 'feel', what types of 'feelings' they are capable of, and how close it is to humans and in what ways.



Yet, even in this desolate atmosphere we find something unexpectedly refreshing; humans and canines learn to commiserate and bond in a way that only best friends can understand. 

Maybe you need to find a better way to get closer to your animals and then maybe you'd find that their feelings are not vague. They show you their feelings all of the time it's just that some people don't care to take the time to figure them out, but then again some people do.


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## terryo (Aug 5, 2010)

chadk said:


> Why? It is a pretty broad statement based on emotions and hopeful thinking. "animals" is a pretty broad category. "Feel" is a pretty vague term. "like humans" is not going to something easily defined and since we can't put ourselves inside a animals brain, we can't say exactly what they 'feel', what types of 'feelings' they are capable of, and how close it is to humans and in what ways.



You are right about one thing IMHO....saying all animals is a broad statement. BUT, I think any animal with a brain will show fear when they think they are going to experience pain. I've seen tapes of cows and pigs going into a slaughter house. The screams the make knowing SOMETHING BAD is going to happen to them is horrible. The fear in their eyes haunts me still. When my dog fell off the bed, and broke her leg, she screamed all the way to the emergency Vet. She was in terrible pain, and my heart pounding as I held her didn't help or put her at ease. Every time I take my three dogs to the Vet, when we get to the street, they all start pulling back, and I have to carry all three into the office. (they're little Chihuahua's and a tiny Yorkie) When a stranger comes over and wants to see my boxies...how do they know this person isn't giving them any food??) They will pull into their shells. But, when they see me, they all run over to me looking for a hand out. I am SURE that they feel pain and some kind of emotion. Why did Pio not eat for days or come out of his hide, when I took Izzy out of his enclosure to separate them? Maybe after two years of following her around, he might have missed her companionship. True story: On the morning of 911, one of my dogs went under the bed and wouldn't come out, the other one wanted me to hold her all day. They knew I was hurting and in pain of some sort....and the list could go on and on. You, who have so many animals must see this every day. Even a Lobster or a Crab will try to bite you, sensing you are his predator, when you pick him up.


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## chadk (Aug 5, 2010)

Candy said:


> Maybe you need to find a better way to get closer to your animals and then maybe you'd find that their feelings are not vague. They show you their feelings all of the time it's just that some people don't care to take the time to figure them out, but then again some people do.



I never said their feelings are vague. I said the term 'feelings' is vague. 

Get closer to my animals? First, you assume I'm not close to them. Which would be wrong. 

Well, maybe you have this in mind. If so, no thanks...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmu_tDCOY2Y[hr]


terryo said:


> Even a Lobster or a Crab will try to bite you, sensing you are his predator, when you pick him up.



Actually that would 'pinch' and not 'bite'... Of course they have survival instincts. All creatures have some sort of survival mechanism. Not a good arguement for making human feelings and animal instincts equivalent.


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## dmmj (Aug 5, 2010)

Now are we talking feeling pain? or emotion I have no doubt animals feel pain. I love my dog and turtles and tortoises and cats and birds, I don't think I forgot anyone. do they love me?


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## terryo (Aug 5, 2010)

Actually that would 'pinch' and not 'bite'... Of course they have survival instincts. All creatures have some sort of survival mechanism. Not a good arguement for making human feelings and animal instincts equivalent. 


Sarcasm never wins an argument... but..I have a sense of humor.
This is just your opinion...not mine.

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Now are we talking feeling pain? or emotion I have no doubt animals feel pain. I love my dog and turtles and tortoises and cats and birds, I don't think I forgot anyone. do they love me? 

Your dog and cat loves you and feels pain. There is no questions in my mind about that. My parrot loved only me, and when my last son came alone, he constantly would raise his fathers and try to bite him. He would scream like crazy when I held him. It was a sad thing for us, but we had to find him a good home. Jealousy...is that an emotion? The others look to your for food and shelter, but, they DO feel pain. Only my opinion...of course.


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