# Would you spend $5000 on a Galapagos tortoise hatchling?



## spikethebest

Just curious what everyone's opinion would be on the pros and cons of buying a couple of galapagos tortoise hatchlings for $5,000 each.


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## Nay

*RE: Would you spend $5000 on a Galapagos tortoise hatchling? I am about to buy 2.*

Yikes!! Well if it's your dream, you feel good about the purchase place, have the accomodations, and it won't keep food from the youn'ns mouth, hey go for it, you only live once!!Just make sure to keep posting pics is all I can say, so we can live our dreams throuugh your purchase!!!
Good Luck. 
Nay


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## LeopardTortLover

How much space do you have? 

I wouldn't - i don't have the money


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## tortadise

Many options that go into place here. They do get huge like the aldabras. But there are very few private breeders that are successful with reproducing them. Zoos even have tough time with them. San Diego is successful, Gladys porter is a huge producer. And a few more. That's it. most of them are different sub species and the studbook won't allow them to be hybridized and studbook registered. I'd say you have 4-7 successful private keepers that produce them. They also lay pretty small clutches and have low fertility rates. So babies are not often to come by. They are a remarkable species and endangered at that. So the more knowledgeable people to have them the better. Heck if I like a certain box turtle that just fancies my taste I'd pay anything for something I like. If its looked at from only a money stand point. Then no you should not purchase one. Dedication and desire typically outweigh money in this industry.


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## ILoveTortoises2

tortadise said:


> Many options that go into place here. They do get huge like the aldabras. But there are very few private breeders that are successful with reproducing them. Zoos even have tough time with them. San Diego is successful, Gladys porter is a huge producer. And a few more. That's it. most of them are different sub species and the studbook won't allow them to be hybridized and studbook registered. I'd say you have 4-7 successful private keepers that produce them. They also lay pretty small clutches and have low fertility rates. So babies are not often to come by. They are a remarkable species and endangered at that. So the more knowledgeable people to have them the better. Heck if I like a certain box turtle that just fancies my taste I'd pay anything for something I like. If its looked at from only a money stand point. Then no you should not purchase one. Dedication and desire typically outweigh money in this industry.



Couldn't say it any better then you just did


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## Jabuticaba

Five grand certainly discourages those who can't afford to provide for them, especially once they're full grown, and demand more space and adequate environment.


May[CHERRY BLOSSOM], Hermann's [TURTLE][TURTLE] & Aussie [DOG FACE][DOG FACE][DOG FACE] (@YWG)


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## Turtulas-Len

Your young, live in a good climate, know tortoise care, have the room, look at it as an investment. and go for it.


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## mike taylor

No way babies die too easy. Now if it was a year or two old maybe . 

Sent from my C771 using TortForum mobile app


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

Yes, I would! 
I would if I could and had everything just right for one.
Other than that, like tortadise and Len said. Perfectly said by both.


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## johnsonnboswell

If you feel so attached to it that you simply must pay the ransom, then yes. I wouldn't do it, but that's because I don't want one enough & don't have the place for it.


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## Jacqui

I know I have a poor memory, but didn't you have one?


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## tortadise

Jacqui said:


> I know I have a poor memory, but didn't you have one?



Who me? No those were some other rare specimens of tortoises. I will be getting some though for sure. Not babies. But I did spend the last 9 months creating an exhibit and proper set up for this species. Still needs a little TLC like the wallering hole. Which these species tend to need as they utilize them on the volcano hill sides. They truly are a lot different than an Aldabra. Some species are dry island habitats and can get serious fungal infections and die. Many zoos have had that happen. Some require rainy seasons, some cant be on grass but eat nothing but grass. Galaps are a very very interesting species. All of the sub species are surely different and require many different needs. The opinion from me again, is if your mentally and physically(housing, proper habitat, well researched etc...) ready to take the commitment they are worth any amount of money that the prospective buyer will be willing to pay. This goes for any species of turtle/tortoise, or animal. Even a human child. <---------uh oh might be a can o worms right there.


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## Millerlite

5k is not bad, I've seen then anywhere from 3-5k and that's really not that much considering adults are in the 10-20k range depending on size and sex it can go even higher. 

Really question is do you have room? They are huge just like the aldabras but it sure would be cool to have one 


Check out my site and channel:
Www.tortoise-spot.webs.com
Www.youtube.com/tortoisespot


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## jtrux

Absolutely


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## Baoh

Spikethebest, did something happen to your Galapagos?

As for the question, yes, I would if I wanted one. However, I would generally rather keep an Aldabra. Of course, I could just have both if I wanted to, too.


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## Jacqui

tortadise said:


> Jacqui said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know I have a poor memory, but didn't you have one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who me?
Click to expand...


No, Cory (Spikethe best). I think it's name was "littlefoot"?


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## cdmay

It would depend on a lot of things. First of all (besides having the $$ I mean) I would want to know exactly which Galapagos tortoise I was getting. Life Fellowship here in Florida used to produce a lot of them not too long ago and they were 'only' $800.00. But the lineage of their breeders was somewhat in question. 
To me, unless you simply want a giant tortoise as a pet, it is somewhat pointless to invest in such an animal without actually knowing what kind of Galapagos tortoise you are getting. Many of the captives in the U.S. are a hodgepodge of races and that greatly diminishes their value as future breeders.
Now, if one of the smaller saddleback Galaps (Hood or Duncan) were available in an unadulterated form, I would jump on them.


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## N2TORTS

You would never know what species you have with out extensive DNA testing , and even those results would be sketchy, as natural hybridization takes place and has been for 1,000 of years already on the islands.

In CMIâ€™s stunning Darwin documentary, The Voyage That Shook the World, we see an evolutionary expert refer to the astonishing types of hybridization, or crosses, that have taken place on the islands, even between two seemingly very different types of animal(but are really not). The film raises this as an argument for a young age for the islandsâ€”thousands of years. The reasoning is, as CMI geneticist Dr Rob Carter points out in Voyage, that the GalÃ¡pagos species â€œmade the jump from the mainland in the first place, and itâ€™s 600 miles away, but the major islands are some 30, 40-odd miles apart â€¦ . so over deep time, over millions of years, the species would jump again and again and again and again, and you get all sorts of hybridization, and you get a blurring of the species lines*NATURALY*. The obvious is definitely natural selection in action, but not evolution. The possibility for these variations was already coded in the DNA of the tortoisesâ€™ ancestors, which allowed the tortoises to adapt to varying levels of vegetation and other environmental factors.

Over 10 sub-species have been identified (four of which are extinct), because they have distinct physical characteristics. But they can all interbreed with one another, so they are classified as one species of tortoise, Geochelone nigra.

Itâ€™s very easy to use a diagram showing in principle how several tortoise varieties can arise from one, simply by sorting already-existing genes via natural selection. For example, the smaller islands tend to be drier, so they donâ€™t support much grass; the only vegetation is cactus and shrubs. So tortoises with saddlebacked shells that can browse will be able to eat, while domed tortoises starve. Thus the only tortoises to pass on their genes to the next generation are the saddlebacked ones.
The most distinctive difference among the sub-species is the variation in the shape of their shells.


GalÃ¡pagos Conservation Trust, GalÃ¡pagos giant tortoise, gct.org/tortoise.html, accessed 17 August 2009. Return to text. Walker, T., Donâ€™t fall for the bait and switch: Sloppy language leads to sloppy thinking, Creation29(4):38â€“39, 2007


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## tortadise

Well put JD. I agree with Carl too. Last I looked at my papers on it. Isabella island has 4 subspecies all within very close range of each other. Volcano dwellers. I'm not too certain and its getting off topic. But I looked into getting some phenotype analysis done on some tortoises. I believe it was duke university that can possibly do it. buuuuut they can't just test it and tell you what it is. they need a known pure haplotype to test against.


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## CourtneyG

I have seen Galapagos hatchlings that are already a few inches sell for $3,500 each, that is a much better deal. I would buy one for that price, but not for 5K.


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## Terry Allan Hall

spikethebest said:


> Just curious what everyone's opinion would be on the pros and cons of buying a couple of galapagos tortoise hatchlings for $5,000 each.



If I lived somewhere like Hawaii, where they'd be comfortable living outside 24/7/365, I'd find the $$$ (likely have to save a while, though).

$5K per is probably not an outrageous price, as I understand they don't readily breed.




tortadise said:


> Many options that go into place here. They do get huge like the aldabras. But there are very few private breeders that are successful with reproducing them. Zoos even have tough time with them. San Diego is successful, Gladys porter is a huge producer. And a few more. That's it. most of them are different sub species and the studbook won't allow them to be hybridized and studbook registered. I'd say you have 4-7 successful private keepers that produce them. They also lay pretty small clutches and have low fertility rates. So babies are not often to come by. They are a remarkable species and endangered at that. So the more knowledgeable people to have them the better. Heck if I like a certain box turtle that just fancies my taste I'd pay anything for something I like. If its looked at from only a money stand point. Then no you should not purchase one. Dedication and desire typically outweigh money in this industry.



Good answer!


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

Thank you cdmay, N2TORTS and tortadise. Fascinating info about them, the islands, the interbreeding.
Now that I have been informed and educated about Galapagos tortoises, I change my answer from a speedy yay, to thought conscious no.
Gotta see that documentary you referred to, JD. 
I did not know this about the Galapagos tortoises. Changes everything. Thanks again.


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## N2TORTS

tortadise said:


> Well put JD. I agree with Carl too. Last I looked at my papers on it. Isabella island has 4 subspecies all within very close range of each other. Volcano dwellers. I'm not too certain and its getting off topic. But I looked into getting some phenotype analysis done on some tortoises. I believe it was duke university that can possibly do it. buuuuut they can't just test it and tell you what it is. they need a known pure haplotype to test against.



Exactly Kelly â€¦.the Haplotype would be the â€œ foundationâ€ â€¦but you need at least two animals that show that exact same combination of alleles. This also reminds me of the debates that go on within the Red foot / Cherry community . And everyone trying to 
â€œ name stake â€œ the exact local.
I never bought into it .. and I still donâ€™t â€¦there are too many variances and mans intervention ..to be 100% â€œ local and species specificâ€ . With time everything changes â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦


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## Yvonne G

If I were in the market for a Galop, I would price them first and see what they were going for. No matter how much I wanted one, I wouldn't pay more that the going price. $5,000 seems a bit steep to me. In my opinion, if they're selling for, say, $3,500, then I'd buy that one instead of the 5K one.


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## Jacqui

spikethebest said:


> Just curious what everyone's opinion would be on the pros and cons of buying a couple of galapagos tortoise hatchlings for $5,000 each.



For me, a con would be something called a divorce....


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## Baoh

CourtneyG said:


> I have seen Galapagos hatchlings that are already a few inches sell for $3,500 each, that is a much better deal. I would buy one for that price, but not for 5K.



Where?


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## AustinASU

Las Vegas exotic pets has them up for sale Baoh.

Also when your dealing with a large species like this and you are considering buying into it.....price of the tortoise shouldn't even come to mind at all. 5k is nothing compared to what you will spend on building the facility and managing upkeep....thats where worrying about price comes into hand, this goes for any species. Initial investments will always be petty when you consider the 80+yr minimal upkeep.


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## cdmay

N2TORTS said:


> *This also reminds me of the debates that go on within the Red foot / Cherry community . And everyone trying to
> â€œ name stake â€œ the exact local.
> I never bought into it .. and I still donâ€™t â€¦there are too many variances and mans intervention ..to be 100% â€œ local and species specificâ€ . With time everything changes â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦*



I think you're missing the point. While you may not 'buy into' the idea of locality specific populations, they clearly exist despite your opinion.
Do you think that the people at the Charles Darwin Research Center are fools for all the effort they go to keep each locality population separate? Even though everyone agrees that they came from the same ancestors and possess very similar DNA, they also recognize that each form has become unique and valuable in its own right. 
I'd like to see you go down the the CDRC and tell Linda Cayot and the other staff members (while you're at it tell Peter Pritchard, Anders Rhodin and others) what a waste of time it is, and what buffoons they all are for trying to preserve those stupid unique populations of tortoises on those islands. 
Same goes for the captive population of red-footed tortoises you mentioned. Lets just mix 'em all together! As Hillary Clinton would say, "What difference does it make?"


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## Baoh

AustinASU said:


> Las Vegas exotic pets has them up for sale Baoh.



I asked about from where the $3500 ones can be obtained.


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## AustinASU

Ohh they don't have any availble this season for that price, but normally you will see them on kingsnake.com for 3500 every year....im guessing this year was a bad year for hatchling galops.


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## Baoh

AustinASU said:


> Ohh they don't have any availble this season for that price, but normally you will see them on kingsnake.com for 3500 every year....im guessing this year was a bad year for hatchling galops.



Who are "they"?


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## tortadise

Baoh said:


> AustinASU said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ohh they don't have any availble this season for that price, but normally you will see them on kingsnake.com for 3500 every year....im guessing this year was a bad year for hatchling galops.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who are "they"?
Click to expand...


I agree. I stalk Kingsnake all day everyday. I have not seen any in the past 4-5 years posted on KS. Fife, and another private breeder in Florida are the only 2 successful this year that I have heard. Each marked 5k for their offspring. Again though its well worth it given that you so choose to take the plunge.


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## Millerlite

Yeah it's been awhile since I've seen them at 3500 they were a few years back or a few offer springs that were produced were just sold lower the. Normal, cuz these guys don't pop up to often, I haven't seen any hatchlings this year but I did see two adults, 21.5 thousand.... I emailed them asking if I can drive it to work?.... Lol but really seems like a cool species to work with If you have the funds and want a galap. Take the plunge! 5k
Can be scary but we are all here to help you out if needed 


Check out my site and channel:
Www.tortoise-spot.webs.com
Www.youtube.com/tortoisespot


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## Madkins007

cdmay said:


> N2TORTS said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This also reminds me of the debates that go on within the Red foot / Cherry community . And everyone trying to
> â€œ name stake â€œ the exact local.
> I never bought into it .. and I still donâ€™t â€¦there are too many variances and mans intervention ..to be 100% â€œ local and species specificâ€ . With time everything changes â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦*
> 
> 
> 
> [Mark's Note- somehow the coding got messed up. The above is from one of JD's posts. What follows is what CDMay said:]
> 
> 
> I think you're missing the point. While you may not 'buy into' the idea of locality specific populations, they clearly exist despite your opinion.
> Do you think that the people at the Charles Darwin Research Center are fools for all the effort they go to keep each locality population separate? Even though everyone agrees that they came from the same ancestors and possess very similar DNA, they also recognize that each form has become unique and valuable in its own right.
> I'd like to see you go down the the CDRC and tell Linda Cayot and the other staff members (while you're at it tell Peter Pritchard, Anders Rhodin and others) what a waste of time it is, and what buffoons they all are for trying to preserve those stupid unique populations of tortoises on those islands.
> Same goes for the captive population of red-footed tortoises you mentioned. Lets just mix 'em all together! As Hillary Clinton would say, "What difference does it make?"
Click to expand...


I think it is interesting how every time they make a 'rule' about breeding, usually based on what they see in mammals and birds, they find that it gets broken in some other group. Russians and Hermanns are very different in a lot of ways and were broken into different genera, but can interbreed. The closet DNA relative to the red-footed is supposedly the hingeback, but I have not heard of any intergrades there.

I know a lot of people make the case that if some things CAN interbreed, we should let or encourage them. I think that is a fundamental mistake. When nature allows an intergrade, there are reasons it is happening and in the long term probably results in a stronger animal better suited to changing conditions- an evolutionary tool.

When humans do this, we end up with things like ligers that have no growth regulation gene, only a small handful of pure American bison (almost all American bison are cattle hybrids), and other unintended consequences. It would seem that the smart thing to do is protect gene lines as best we can.

Besides- if you don't know what type of Galap it is, how will you know the best care for it? As has been mentioned, this is a really fragmented group as far as that sort of thing goes.


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## N2TORTS

cdmay said:


> N2TORTS said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This also reminds me of the debates that go on within the Red foot / Cherry community . And everyone trying to
> â€œ name stake â€œ the exact local.
> I never bought into it .. and I still donâ€™t â€¦there are too many variances and mans intervention ..to be 100% â€œ local and species specificâ€ . With time everything changes â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're missing the point. While you may not 'buy into' the idea of locality specific populations, they clearly exist despite your opinion.
> Do you think that the people at the Charles Darwin Research Center are fools for all the effort they go to keep each locality population separate? Even though everyone agrees that they came from the same ancestors and possess very similar DNA, they also recognize that each form has become unique and valuable in its own right.
> I'd like to see you go down the the CDRC and tell Linda Cayot and the other staff members (while you're at it tell Peter Pritchard, Anders Rhodin and others) what a waste of time it is, and what buffoons they all are for trying to preserve those stupid unique populations of tortoises on those islands.
> Same goes for the captive population of red-footed tortoises you mentioned. Lets just mix 'em all together! As Hillary Clinton would say, "What difference does it make?"
Click to expand...

Carl .... before jumping down my throat ...I have done plenty of research ... !
and you have no idea who I know ...matter of fact , most of the so called " native " species among the islands to dateâ€¦.are Hybrids/Sub-species with different â€œvisual characteristicsâ€ and yes there are differences . The DNA testing has been very slim , and most classifications are based on actual collection local and or natural selection wild breed characteristics ( which does not prove much DNA wise ) .. anyway ,,you must have not read the article very well~ Check out the movie too


Fife was the producer of these and owns the Female ....Ken owns the male ... . For the last 5 years as Kelly mentioned ..most " captive" Glaps have been shooting blanks . There have been eggs laid , but none that I know of , hatched out. These are special little guys . 
So Carl , Mark ......Ya think Fife .. knows this "species specific of these animals " ?


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## cdmay

N2TORTS said:


> *Carl .... before jumping down my throat ...I have done plenty of research ... !
> and you have no idea who I know ...matter of fact , most of the so called " native " species among the islands to dateâ€¦.are Hybrids/Sub-species with different â€œvisual characteristicsâ€ and yes there are differences . The DNA testing has been very slim , and most classifications are based on actual collection local and or natural selection wild breed characteristics ( which does not prove much DNA wise ) .. anyway ,,you must have not read the article very well~ Check out the movie too
> 
> 
> Fife was the producer of these and owns the Female ....Ken owns the male ... . For the last 5 years as Kelly mentioned ..most " captive" Glaps have been shooting blanks . There have been eggs laid , but none that I know of , hatched out. These are special little guys .
> So Carl , Mark ......Ya think Fife .. knows this "species specific of these animals " ?*





Easy JD. Wasn't trying to jump down your throat but rather was responding to the not so subtle jab regarding the hesitation (or opposition) many of us have to what is becoming a disturbing trend in tortoise culture, namely the interbreeding of differing localities for the sole purpose of spreading mutations around. In the case of red-footed tortoises there has been some deliberate breeding of hypo, and or, albino animals to other races or populations simply for monetary gain. Or to see 'what they get'. 
Many of the folks involved in this practice like to pretend that since all red-footed tortoises are technically the same species, that they can just close their eyes and mix everything together without guilt. 
I was trying to bring out the fact that in the Galapagos Islands, where such things matter a great deal, the people involved there go to extreme lengths to ensure that any more man made mixing no longer takes place. In fact, they have neutered many adult animals who's origin is unclear. I think that means they are pretty serious. 
As for research, I have read virtually everything written about Galapagos tortoises and have quite a library of papers. But I will admit that this means little... as does this ridiculous pronouncement: _"_._..and you have no idea who I know"_

The Fife's are knowledgeable breeders but what does this have to do with taxonomy? Are you implying that since they get viable hatchlings that they know more about taxonomy than everyone else? _Huh?!_ 
In actual fact, the reason that most Galapagos tortoises 'shoot blanks' is a result of many factors including poor husbandry, animals that are obese, animals that are kept in confines that are too small and on and on. It has just about zero to do with their origin or sub-specific identity. 

My original point about paying a lot of money for Galapagos tortoises remains the same. If you're going to lay out a load of cash, at least try to know what you're getting in return. There is responsibility involved with keeping tortoises and especially when it comes to something as unique as Galapagos tortoises.


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## N2TORTS

This was pretty lame too Carl ....

"I'd like to see you go down the the CDRC and tell Linda Cayot and the other staff members (while you're at it tell Peter Pritchard, Anders Rhodin and others) what a waste of time it is, and what buffoons they all are for trying to preserve those stupid unique populations of tortoises on those islands. 
Same goes for the captive population of red-footed tortoises you mentioned. Lets just mix 'em all together! As Hillary Clinton would say, "What difference does it make?" "


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## EricIvins

cdmay said:


> N2TORTS said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Carl .... before jumping down my throat ...I have done plenty of research ... !
> and you have no idea who I know ...matter of fact , most of the so called " native " species among the islands to dateâ€¦.are Hybrids/Sub-species with different â€œvisual characteristicsâ€ and yes there are differences . The DNA testing has been very slim , and most classifications are based on actual collection local and or natural selection wild breed characteristics ( which does not prove much DNA wise ) .. anyway ,,you must have not read the article very well~ Check out the movie too
> 
> 
> Fife was the producer of these and owns the Female ....Ken owns the male ... . For the last 5 years as Kelly mentioned ..most " captive" Glaps have been shooting blanks . There have been eggs laid , but none that I know of , hatched out. These are special little guys .
> So Carl , Mark ......Ya think Fife .. knows this "species specific of these animals " ?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Easy JD. Wasn't trying to jump down your throat but rather was responding to the not so subtle jab regarding the hesitation (or opposition) many of us have to what is becoming a disturbing trend in tortoise culture, namely the interbreeding of differing localities for the sole purpose of spreading mutations around. In the case of red-footed tortoises there has been some deliberate breeding of hypo, and or, albino animals to other races or populations simply for monetary gain. Or to see 'what they get'.
> Many of the folks involved in this practice like to pretend that since all red-footed tortoises are technically the same species, that they can just close their eyes and mix everything together without guilt.
> I was trying to bring out the fact that in the Galapagos Islands, where such things matter a great deal, the people involved there go to extreme lengths to ensure that any more man made mixing no longer takes place. In fact, they have neutered many adult animals who's origin is unclear. I think that means they are pretty serious.
> As for research, I have read virtually everything written about Galapagos tortoises and have quite a library of papers. But I will admit that this means little... as does this ridiculous pronouncement: _"_._..and you have no idea who I know"_
> 
> The Fife's are knowledgeable breeders but what does this have to do with taxonomy? Are you implying that since they get viable hatchlings that they know more about taxonomy than everyone else? _Huh?!_
> In actual fact, the reason that most Galapagos tortoises 'shoot blanks' is a result of many factors including poor husbandry, animals that are obese, animals that are kept in confines that are too small and on and on. It has just about zero to do with their origin or sub-specific identity.
> 
> My original point about paying a lot of money for Galapagos tortoises remains the same. If you're going to lay out a load of cash, at least try to know what you're getting in return. There is responsibility involved with keeping tortoises and especially when it comes to something as unique as Galapagos tortoises.
Click to expand...




I would think "anyone" who wants a hatchling Galop knows what they are getting into. No one is going to buy a $5000 Tortoise on a whim. Those that do know the state of Galops in captivity.

I think that anyone with the means to acquire a Galop should. Point blank. Same goes for an Aldabra, Radiated, or any other Tortoise they have not experienced.....

Seriously though - Who cares? Would I spend stupid money on a Galop? Yes I would. Do I have plans on spending stupid money on a Galop? Yes I do. I don't get why a question like this would be posed to a forum who's primary base is "Pet" owners who would never think to own a Galop in the first place. I'm surprised no one has posted the typical "I thought they were Illegal to keep" post yet......


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## Bryan

I am not going to pretend to know about Galapagos tortoises like many of you do, however hybridization is something that I am very familiar with. Sometimes when you take different populations of animals and breed them you can get sterile offspring, you can get very lopsided male or female offspring, you can make it easier for genetic barriers to be broken down due to animals now being more receptive to breeding with either parent species, etc. Just because science as we know it has not classified Redfoots into different subspecies or perhaps even species altogether it does not mean that we should just turn a blind eye to all of the differences that these animals have. I believe that Amazon Basin Yellowfoots aren't classified as different than regular Yellowfoots, yet anyone that sees the sheer size of the adults of both of these animals would know that their is a vast difference between them. I have seen a lot smaller differences in other animals specifically fish that classifies animals as being a different species or sub species. IMO we should look to keep stocks pure so that in time if/when they are determined to be distinct that they will still be intact instead of a hodge podge like the Galapagos tortoises are reported to be.

As for if I'd buy them for $5K? Surely not if they are potentially sterile and surely not unless I get all of a huge grocery stores left over produce!  I could only imagine what a 500lb. Galapagos tortoise could eat in a day!




EricIvins said:


> *I would think "anyone" who wants a hatchling Galop knows what they are getting into. No one is going to buy a $5000 Tortoise on a whim. *Those that do know the state of Galops in captivity.
> 
> I think that anyone with the means to acquire a Galop should. Point blank. Same goes for an Aldabra, Radiated, or any other Tortoise they have not experienced.....
> 
> Seriously though - Who cares? Would I spend stupid money on a Galop? Yes I would. Do I have plans on spending stupid money on a Galop? Yes I do. I don't get why a question like this would be posed to a forum who's primary base is "Pet" owners who would never think to own a Galop in the first place. I'm surprised no one has posted the typical "I thought they were Illegal to keep" post yet......



I've come across people that do a lot dumber things in life than that TBH, they have the $ to burn and more often than not do just that.


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## EricIvins

Bryan said:


> I am not going to pretend to know about Galapagos tortoises like many of you do, however hybridization is something that I am very familiar with. Sometimes when you take different populations of animals and breed them you can get sterile offspring, you can get very lopsided male or female offspring, you can make it easier for genetic barriers to be broken down due to animals now being more receptive to breeding with either parent species, etc. Just because science as we know it has not classified Redfoots into different subspecies or perhaps even species altogether it does not mean that we should just turn a blind eye to all of the differences that these animals have. I believe that Amazon Basin Yellowfoots aren't classified as different than regular Yellowfoots, yet anyone that sees the sheer size of the adults of both of these animals would know that their is a vast difference between them. I have seen a lot smaller differences in other animals specifically fish that classifies animals as being a different species or sub species. IMO we should look to keep stocks pure so that in time if/when they are determined to be distinct that they will still be intact instead of a hodge podge like the Galapagos tortoises are reported to be.
> 
> As for if I'd buy them for $5K? Surely not if they are potentially sterile and surely not unless I get all of a huge grocery stores left over produce!  I could only imagine what a 500lb. Galapagos tortoise could eat in a day!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EricIvins said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I would think "anyone" who wants a hatchling Galop knows what they are getting into. No one is going to buy a $5000 Tortoise on a whim. *Those that do know the state of Galops in captivity.
> 
> I think that anyone with the means to acquire a Galop should. Point blank. Same goes for an Aldabra, Radiated, or any other Tortoise they have not experienced.....
> 
> Seriously though - Who cares? Would I spend stupid money on a Galop? Yes I would. Do I have plans on spending stupid money on a Galop? Yes I do. I don't get why a question like this would be posed to a forum who's primary base is "Pet" owners who would never think to own a Galop in the first place. I'm surprised no one has posted the typical "I thought they were Illegal to keep" post yet......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've come across people that do a lot dumber things in life than that TBH, they have the $ to burn and more often than not do just that.
Click to expand...




Knowing the literal handful of people that are actually producing Galops in the private sector, no, nobody is going to buy a $5000 Tortoise on impulse. That is the truth. These are Tortoises, not fancy hood ornaments.....


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

I love the Galapagos and if I won Powerball it might be a consideration, if, and only if, I knew what I was getting into and provide the exactly right care with my millions I won. (Fingers crossed here).

Remember this post? 
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-69512.html

That is unacceptable.

They are too precious to not do right by them.

Had no idea there were 10 (!) subspecies and the different shell types. Wow.

No wonder Lonesome George left us without leaving us lil LGs.

RIP Lonesome George


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## Terry Allan Hall

EricIvins said:


> I would think "anyone" who wants a hatchling Galop knows what they are getting into. No one is going to buy a $5000 Tortoise on a whim. Those that do know the state of Galops in captivity.
> 
> I think that anyone with the means to acquire a Galop should. Point blank. Same goes for an Aldabra, Radiated, or any other Tortoise they have not experienced.....
> 
> Seriously though - Who cares? Would I spend stupid money on a Galop? Yes I would. Do I have plans on spending stupid money on a Galop? Yes I do. I don't get why a question like this would be posed to a forum who's primary base is "Pet" owners who would never think to own a Galop in the first place. I'm surprised no one has posted the typical "I thought they were Illegal to keep" post yet......



As you can read, many of us mere "pet" owners would love to have a Galop, were it feasible.


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## tortadise

Goiters are pretty typical in the giant tortoises. Little added iodine sprinkled on the food prevents it. Good diet and exercise is the best way to prevent typical medical issues. Unfortunately a lot of zoos have so many animals there husbandry director(food and enclosure protocols) are limited to wide diets, for all the animals. Cost outweighs care in many institutions not all though.


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## Bryan

EricIvins said:


> Bryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not going to pretend to know about Galapagos tortoises like many of you do, however hybridization is something that I am very familiar with. Sometimes when you take different populations of animals and breed them you can get sterile offspring, you can get very lopsided male or female offspring, you can make it easier for genetic barriers to be broken down due to animals now being more receptive to breeding with either parent species, etc. Just because science as we know it has not classified Redfoots into different subspecies or perhaps even species altogether it does not mean that we should just turn a blind eye to all of the differences that these animals have. I believe that Amazon Basin Yellowfoots aren't classified as different than regular Yellowfoots, yet anyone that sees the sheer size of the adults of both of these animals would know that their is a vast difference between them. I have seen a lot smaller differences in other animals specifically fish that classifies animals as being a different species or sub species. IMO we should look to keep stocks pure so that in time if/when they are determined to be distinct that they will still be intact instead of a hodge podge like the Galapagos tortoises are reported to be.
> 
> As for if I'd buy them for $5K? Surely not if they are potentially sterile and surely not unless I get all of a huge grocery stores left over produce!  I could only imagine what a 500lb. Galapagos tortoise could eat in a day!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EricIvins said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I would think "anyone" who wants a hatchling Galop knows what they are getting into. No one is going to buy a $5000 Tortoise on a whim. *Those that do know the state of Galops in captivity.
> 
> I think that anyone with the means to acquire a Galop should. Point blank. Same goes for an Aldabra, Radiated, or any other Tortoise they have not experienced.....
> 
> Seriously though - Who cares? Would I spend stupid money on a Galop? Yes I would. Do I have plans on spending stupid money on a Galop? Yes I do. I don't get why a question like this would be posed to a forum who's primary base is "Pet" owners who would never think to own a Galop in the first place. I'm surprised no one has posted the typical "I thought they were Illegal to keep" post yet......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've come across people that do a lot dumber things in life than that TBH, they have the $ to burn and more often than not do just that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Knowing the literal handful of people that are actually producing Galops in the private sector, no, nobody is going to buy a $5000 Tortoise on impulse. That is the truth. These are Tortoises, not fancy hood ornaments.....
Click to expand...




I beg to differ, but I guess you've just run into less super rich idiots than I have. That said I'm sure that if these beautiful creatures are as hard to reproduce as it sounds the breeders could pretty well pick and choose who they go to and I'm sure that they'd rather their hatchlings grow into amazing adults while being kept in a great environment instead of being treated like yesterday's toy.


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## cdmay

*


N2TORTS said:



This was pretty lame too Carl ....

"I'd like to see you go down the the CDRC and tell Linda Cayot and the other staff members (while you're at it tell Peter Pritchard, Anders Rhodin and others) what a waste of time it is, and what buffoons they all are for trying to preserve those stupid unique populations of tortoises on those islands. 
Same goes for the captive population of red-footed tortoises you mentioned. Lets just mix 'em all together! As Hillary Clinton would say, "What difference does it make?" "

Click to expand...

*
_Lame?_ I thought that it was a good point.
And funny too.

*EricIvins Wrote: I would think "anyone" who wants a hatchling Galop knows what they are getting into. No one is going to buy a $5000 Tortoise on a whim. Those that do know the state of Galops in captivity.
*

Eric, I see your point and would have agreed with you up until last year. Then I saw a couple of adult galaps owned by a well known and experienced keeper that were is such poor shape that they both died. The vet caring for them said that they had been maintained in very substandard conditions and had developed festering sores all over their legs from rubbing against fiberglass. According to the vet, (the late Greg Flemming) the owner was simply lazy and the cost of the tortoises meant little as he had plenty of money. Although he had the space and the means to keep and even breed his tortoises, he didn't bother.
Also, the tortoise guy down in Homestead with lots of money had several galaps years ago. But they all developed huge goiters on their necks from him feeding them loads of cabbage and other cheap produce. I think they all died--just from lousy care.
As for this being a place mostly for 'Pet owners' that's probably true. But then didn't all keepers--including Galapagos tortoise breeders--start off that way?


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## Baoh

Did something happen to Littlefoot?


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## Yvonne G

Baoh: He sold Little Foot quite a while ago when he had to go to the east coast for the military.


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## Baoh

Ah. Good to know. Littlefoot was an awesome tank of an animal.

Thanks for the information, Yvonne.


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## N2TORTS

cdmay said:


> *
> 
> 
> N2TORTS said:
> 
> 
> 
> This was pretty lame too Carl ....
> 
> "I'd like to see you go down the the CDRC and tell Linda Cayot and the other staff members (while you're at it tell Peter Pritchard, Anders Rhodin and others) what a waste of time it is, and what buffoons they all are for trying to preserve those stupid unique populations of tortoises on those islands.
> Same goes for the captive population of red-footed tortoises you mentioned. Lets just mix 'em all together! As Hillary Clinton would say, "What difference does it make?" "
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> _Lame?_ I thought that it was a good point.
> And funny too.



Carl â€¦.What I ment from the Redfoot statement ( which is even less studied then the galaps, and there is no island hoping with miles of water in-between) is at what point or shall I say â€œlocalâ€ to we call one species another? Now I fully understand there are phenotypesâ€™ to certain â€œlocalâ€ and in the redfoot world most of that is differences in coloring. Although with the giant Reds as well as the Giant Yellowfoots â€¦we see size difference within species but could that be more likely scenario because of the actions like mentioned above in the Galap Thread? â€œ natural selectionâ€ due to the fact that area in which found in abundance they thrive inâ€¦ is richer in foods and water , year around for 100sâ€™ of yearsâ€¦.. , reproducing more and 100â€™s years later â€œ own the spotâ€ . Now there are natural boundaries â€¦ and of course in South America â€¦ the Amazon being the biggest â€¦but again - natural disasters , floods and floating debris,, tribal trading , One could easily forecast a â€œ natural mix of animals ( escapeeâ€™s ) . So if that took place hundreds of years back â€¦and in the most recent history , when someone â€œ Discoveredâ€ the species and named it â€¦I still wonder is it really genetically a different species? â€¦or more of a â€œcurrent phenotype noted within this centuryâ€ Anyhow,most of the available published data - the testing and methods that were used is old, as well as the data â€¦..15-20 years old. In the last 5 years alone the medical field which uses the same technology we are talking about â€œgenetic link ageingâ€ has exploded. Old mass spectrometers, electron microscopes , have become a new state of the art machinery. Within a new group of studies of gene linkage , scientist have used the tetrad analysis for the mapping of gene linkage and provide more accurate mapping data. 
Although I doubt the engineers and *most* <grin> of the scientists who use these instruments for Cancer, HIV, Human Genetic Mapping research , are going to worry about studying gene alleles in a tortoise.Except for my buddies at the SDZ... other than BS'n with them ... and You Guys N Gals in this forum ..who else knows about tortoises?
For the most part keepers old and new rely on â€œ visual identification marksâ€ which is not always so accurate. Now I know your not a fan of my hypos and they are â€œpureâ€ â€¦As pure as ice is cold â€¦.but most people experienced or not would have a hard time identifying what â€œspecies local specific â€œ they are. Nonetheless they do exist with the normal phenotypesâ€™ in that area . Notice I havenâ€™t even mentioned â€œ the mixing or human hybrid madeâ€. Just plain olâ€™ tort from the wild lets say on the boarder of Rondonia-Mato Grosso. â€¦.I have never been to see them all naturaâ€™ellÃŸ-my Lame Frenchâ€¦but ya can be darn sure that is on my upcoming bucket list! 
Speaking of Galaps ............and some other BIG boyz...


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## Irish

If i had the discretionary income, i would buy aldabras and try to successfully breed them.


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## tortadise

Island Hopping? The natural intergrades of Galops are on the Isabella Island which inhabits most of the species around the Volcanoes. I have a study that shows intergrade. Not too certain what the fertility or if the fertility was tested among those species. Adingdoni is also still present in a population. Darwin Station is currently trying to re-breed out into as pure of the Pinta Island specie again. The Galapagos are a very very intriguing place. Her we go Gentlemen in regards to the Island map of species being found and intergrade. I belive the issues with captive Galops go hand in hand with the same thing of Aldabras. I know a few breeders that keep both. Happy is the best way to describe keeping these species. They are not a typical put the male with a female and she will get fertilized and lay eggs. Greg(Aldabraman) and I talk quite frequently about his observations in his colony. Also Aldabranerd who does work on the Aldabra Atoll Isalnds with the natural populations of Aldabras tend to depict a very similar scene to that of the Galapagos Species. Happy place a very loaded word in terms of food, safety, and future for the offspring. The giants tend to control the egg laying and fertility cycle. I know a breeder that lives 30 minutes from me. His galaps are 36 years old, and still no fertility. His set up isn't as best as I would do for this species, so I gave as good of input to him as possible, and hopefully he will adjust and begin seeing good results. 




I know the Wolf/Darwini have intergraded. 

Now for a not so off topic. Yes I would buy one


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## N2TORTS

GREAT info Kelly ....thank you ! 
( island hoping was a joke .....sorta 

Nerve racking ... excited ...cautious all words come into play
30 days and counting .....


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## tortadise

Well its real to me. I have heard such endeavors on the Aldabra islands. They really pose the same exact scenario as Galapagos. But entirely across the world. Many many different species of Aldabras just never brought up. Use to buy imports of Galaps as late as the early 90s. All they were sold as were per pound or pair or size, not by island or region. Science has come so far even since then with tortoises. same goes for Aldabras. They just import away and who knows which origin they really are. Heck I have one a WC(or farm raised) one and I Dont know. It just may aid the mis informed or lack of understanding why the giants are a more difficult species to breed. I think they are among the ancients and have not adapted or evolved like others have and have no reason to. They walk like the atlas did and are still around. So why change. Us humans are a young species that may be too irrational and arrogant to understand that nature is note simple than thought of. We are impatient when they are not. They what we could learn from. Possibly why some could sterile. Evolving into something that wouldn't work so it sterilizes. Anyways blah blah blah. I could go on for hours about my crazy turtle theories.


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## N2TORTS

v^v^CHEERS v^v^.... I told ya ....we'd rap for hours on end!


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## FLINTUS

Sorry going to have to disagree with regards to aladabras. The people I met in Mauritius were breeding them in PURE subspecies groups regularly, and remember some of these were hotels. There are now some 3rd generation CB there.


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## FLINTUS

Both under chelonoidis I suppose. I believe though red foots' closest living relative is one of the hingebacks in terms of DNA, can't remember which one. 
The Pangea thing is very interesting to me as I and at the moment I am digging up info about tortoise evolution and all the tectonic plate movement stuff in order to try and get some collective data on the link between it. The Galapagoses as you said are an interesting bunch, as they are volcano dwellers. Notice how, with the exception of sulcatas and manouria, nearly all species of giant tortoises living or extinct came from island chains in archipelagos, generally with volcanic history. I posted a thread in the advanced topic section if you would care to look, as I would be interested to hear your opinion on it.
Cheers.
Ben


Have the mods just deleted some of the posts?


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## Yvonne G

So what part of........oops,-looks-like-a-moderator-has-split-off-the-argument- about-redfooted-tortoises-from-the-Galop-thread. I-guess-we'd-better-clean-up-our-act.........didn't you understand?


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## cdmay

Yvonne G said:


> So what part of........oops,-looks-like-a-moderator-has-split-off-the-argument- about-redfooted-tortoises-from-the-Galop-thread. I-guess-we'd-better-clean-up-our-act.........didn't you understand?



_Sigh_...I guess you're right. The red-foot comparison was a good one at first.
And then the fun began!
Sorry.


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## N2TORTS

Flint .... I found that link.....


Abstract
Perhaps the most enduring debate in reptile systematics has involved the giant GalÃ¡pagos tortoises (Geochelone nigra), whose origins and systematic relationships captivated Charles Darwin and remain unresolved to this day. Here we report a phylogenetic reconstruction based on mitochondrial DNA sequences from GalÃ¡pagos tortoises and Geochelone from mainland South America and Africa. The closest living relative to the GalÃ¡pagos tortoise is not among the larger-bodied tortoises of South America but is the relatively small-bodied Geochelone chilensis, or Chaco tortoise. The split between G. chilensis and the GalÃ¡pagos lineage probably occurred 6 to 12 million years ago, before the origin of the oldest extant GalÃ¡pagos island. Our data suggest that the four named southern subspecies on the largest island, Isabela, are not distinct genetic units, whereas a genetically distinct northernmost Isabela subspecies is probably the result of a separate colonization.Estimates of genetic distances also support the sister taxa status of G. chilensis and G. nigra. Among the subspecies of G. nigra, the maximum likelihood distances range from 0 to 0.0124 with a mean of 0.0066 Â± 0.004 (SD). Between subspecies of G. nigra and G. chilensis, the average distance is 0.0788 Â± 0.005. Between G. nigra and G. carbonaria or G. denticulata ML distances are 0.118 Â± 0.005 and 0.116 Â± 0.003, respectively. 
Fig. 2 also reveals some resolution of the relationships among the GalÃ¡pagos subspecies. One point of interest is that the five named subspecies on Isabela do not form a monophyletic clade. The four southern Isabela subspecies are sister taxa to the subspecies from Santa Cruz, whereas the northernmost subspecies, G. n. becki, is the sister taxon to G. n. darwini on San Salvador. It is a geographically reasonable scenario for southern Isabela to be colonized from Santa Cruz and northern Isabela to be colonized from San Salvador (Fig. 1). 
There is virtually no evidence for genetic differentiation among the four southern Isabela subspecies. The cytb sequence is identical in all individuals sampled. There are only three differences in the 16S rRNA sequence among the eight samples of these four named subspecies. We have also sequenced what is generally the fastest evolving region of mtDNA, the D loop, in individuals from these four subspecies to test whether this region gives evidence of genetic differentiation...


http://www.pnas.org/content/96/23/13223.full


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## allegraf

I agree, it's all CDMay's fault! For shame, Carl.


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## Madkins007

JD did start a new thread for red/yellow-foot genetics discussions at http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-77807.html


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## Yvonne G

I didn't know if JD's new thread was a continuation of the comments I removed from this thread or not, so I didn't merge them, but I move the comments taken from this thread to here:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-77833.html


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## Sulcata_Sandy

Yvonne G said:


> So what part of........oops,-looks-like-a-moderator-has-split-off-the-argument- about-redfooted-tortoises-from-the-Galop-thread. I-guess-we'd-better-clean-up-our-act.........didn't you understand?



(Spits coffee on iPad) 

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Thanks for that. I laughed my *** off


Sandy
.......................................
Oregon Tortoise Rescue


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## Yellow Turtle

I would buy a galop if I have the grands.

Btw, do I miss reading another reply from spike after 5 pages responses


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## Team Gomberg

Yellow Turtle said:


> Btw, do I miss reading another reply from spike after 5 pages responses



lol


----------



## Baoh

Yellow Turtle said:


> I would buy a galop if I have the grands.
> 
> Btw, do I miss reading another reply from spike after 5 pages responses



Oddly absent, but maybe he is simply busy.


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## Tom

I don't know anybody more busy every minute of every day.


----------



## Team Gomberg

*Re: RE: Would you spend $5000 on a Galapagos tortoise hatchling?*



Tom said:


> I don't know anybody more busy every minute of every day.



Not even you???  

Sent from my TFOapp


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## spikethebest

Sorry I havenâ€™t been around much. Wish I could come on more often. 

I work full time for Medtronic Inc- software engineer for insulin pumps with people with diabetes
Work at a ranch trying to help care for 400+ animals
Work after work doing tutoring with high school students in all math/science
Run an aviation business doing flight rental/training, and scenic tours
Work for the US Army as a helicopter pilot
Work on the weekends doing animal shows - did 4 this weekend - in Laguna Beach, Tarzana, Manhattan Beach, and Paso Verdes

And I just got notice that my California Army National Guard has got activated to help fight the fires in Yosemite...

I appreciate everyone's input on the Galapagos babies. 

They are really awesome little guys. Wish everyone could enjoy a Galapagos tortoise hatchling!



























and no, I have not bought these guys. Very tempted though. But haven't done it.


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## Baoh

Beautiful little creatures. Thank you for sharing.


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## ALDABRAMAN

tortadise said:


> *Dedication and desire typically outweigh money in this industry.*



** I agree!*


----------



## hunterk997

Just a quick question though, I thought it was illegal to own a galapagos tortoise in most areas?


----------



## Yvonne G

No, just illegal to ship them across state lines without a permit.


----------



## Tom

Yvonne G said:


> No, just illegal to ship them across state lines without a permit.



It's a fine point, but its actually not illegal to ship them across state lines without permits if its for a breeding loan or given as a gift. It's only illegal to SELL them across state lines without a permit.




Team Gomberg said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know anybody more busy every minute of every day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not even you???
> 
> Sent from my TFOapp
Click to expand...


I'm not even close, as his post below your question demonstrates. 

I really meant EVERY minute of EVERY day.


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## Yellow Turtle

spikethebest said:


> Sorry I havenâ€™t been around much. Wish I could come on more often.
> 
> I work full time for Medtronic Inc- software engineer for insulin pumps with people with diabetes
> Work at a ranch trying to help care for 400+ animals
> Work after work doing tutoring with high school students in all math/science
> Run an aviation business doing flight rental/training, and scenic tours
> Work for the US Army as a helicopter pilot
> Work on the weekends doing animal shows - did 4 this weekend - in Laguna Beach, Tarzana, Manhattan Beach, and Paso Verdes
> 
> And I just got notice that my California Army National Guard has got activated to help fight the fires in Yosemite...
> 
> I appreciate everyone's input on the Galapagos babies.
> 
> They are really awesome little guys. Wish everyone could enjoy a Galapagos tortoise hatchling!



Where you got all those energy to spend?? Just like a galapagos who keeps walking for miles!!!!

Very busy days for you and very beautiful pictures. Thanks for sharing


----------

