# An Idea- Gelatin Supplements?



## Madkins007 (Dec 5, 2010)

As we are discussing on other threads, our tortoises may need a bit more vitamin D, fiber, calcium, vitamin E or K, etc. than they are getting in their 'supermarket' diet. What if we made our own supplements?

The idea would be to use unflavored gelatin, and mix in some fruit puree or organic baby food for flavor, color, and more nutrients, then add some vitamin D3 drops, some fiber supplement, some calcium powder, etc. Let it gel up, cut into cubes, freeze, thaw, and serve.

1 packet of Knox unflavored gelatin makes 1.5-2 cups. To figure dosages- 2 cups is about 30 cubic inches, so spread out in a 1/2" thick layer would cover about 10"x6" and cut into about 240 1/2" cubes. (I know I am being a bit slack in this, but it is close enough.)

Each cube of plain gelatin would have:
- 1.6g of protein
- 3.7mg of sodium
- 1mg of calcium (Ca: P of 1.4:1)
- Lots of copper and selenium, but not much else

Fruit- you cannot use the best tortoise fruits for this- figs, papaya, pineapple, kiwi, and cactus fruits have enzymes that keep the gel from gelling. I'd probably go with strawberry and banana for color and sweetness- pureed or organic baby food.

Calcium- because calcium does not dissolve in water, I would mix it into the fruit puree- probably about 1/4 cup of it- so it would be evenly distributed in the gel.

Additives-
- Vitamin D3 oil, from gel caps or drops. I'd mix in about 48,000 IUs of D to get about 200 IUs in each cube.
- Powdered multivitamin, probably about 2 tablespoons?
- Vitamin E MAY be a trick we are missing. Some reports have hinted that E and maybe even K are shorter in our food choices than they may be in the wild. Some wheat germ oil or a bit more sunflower or safflower oil can help here.
- Some flax seed acts as a fiber source and for Omega 3 oils
- Some coarse ground Timothy hay is another fiber source

Mix it all up, pour it into a pan that lets you make about a 1/2" thick layer, let it set pretty firmly, cut into 1/2" cubes, toss lightly with some cornstarch and calcium powder to prevent sticking, and freeze. 

I'd also recommend a taste test. If it is too bitter or nasty to us, the torts probably would not eat it either. In that case, I would cut back on the calcium, or add more fruit.


I KNOW THERE IS CONCERN about over-supplementing tortoises (as well as humans, etc.), but the key issues here are:
1. ARE they really getting what they need from our typical grocery store diet? Many store-bought foods are much lower in nutrients than the lists would tell us because of the shipping times and processes, different soils and additives, etc.
2. Before I would USE the gel we are discussing, I would work on fine-tuning the dosages to prevent over-doing anything. We may not have absolute dosages from research, but we have some guidelines for many things.
3. Couldn't I BUY something that will do this? I have not seen anything that comes too close, although TNT supplement might. Most things are too low in D, E, and fiber to help in the same way.
4. "Sounds like a lot of work." Well, one batch makes up about 34 weeks worth of cubes if you only use one at a time. You could make more, but I probably would not make up more than about 6 months worth at a time to help ensure freshness of the ingredients.

REMEMBER- I have NOT made or used these, this is just an idea!


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## Kristina (Dec 5, 2010)

LOL, seriously? Because I already do this... I have been making gel foods for years. 

I'll post up some recipes shortly. 

I make my own fish food and amphibian foods as well.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 5, 2010)

I already do it too, for my box turtles.


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## Kristina (Dec 5, 2010)

Great minds think alike, eh?


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## Balboa (Dec 5, 2010)

Gosh darn way to pull the steam right out of Marks's engine. I think he was pretty proud of this one.

As you said, great minds think alike.


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## Madkins007 (Dec 5, 2010)

Perhaps I need to clarify. This would be a vitamin and mineral supplement only. I know there are many recipes out there for gelatin-based diets. Heck, I published one in the American Association of Zoos and Aquariums Journal (or some title like that) in the mid-80's. 

The difference is that this gel would just be designed to deliver the nutrients that tortoises seem to need but supermarket greens are low in, and do it in a way that is very digestible and available to the tortoise. The goal would be to offer a cube or two to the tortoise along with a nice pile of whatever fresh greens we can find.

I probably should also point out that I am thinking more and more that our tortoises need a diet that is generally higher in fiber and lower in energy than we often provide, especially in the winter.


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## dmmj (Dec 5, 2010)

kyryah said:


> Great minds think alike, eh?



I wonder if I should take inuslt at this?


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## Kristina (Dec 5, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> I probably should also point out that I am thinking more and more that our tortoises need a diet that is generally higher in fiber and lower in energy than we often provide, especially in the winter.



And that is a point I have been advocating for 17 years. How much nutrition is in grass, dried grass, and weeds? Not much, honestly. Especially in the dry parts of the world. So when winter hits, and people have to rely on greens and veggies and fruits, it is an overload of nutrients.

And I was talking about gel supplements, as well. I use spirulina, Centrum, calcium carbonate and a few other ingredients. It isn't a complete food (I don't believe that such thing as a complete food exists.) 

Also - boiling destroys a lot of nutritional value. Agar melts at 185* and sets at 90-104*. It is much easier to use than gelatin, and can be baked into gel form instead of boiling. Although, gelatin can be easier to get.


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## Becki (Dec 5, 2010)

I'm totally lost but I'm all for jello shots!


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## Mao Senpai (Dec 5, 2010)

Becki said:


> I'm totally lost but I'm all for jello shots!



Haha!


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## Terry Allan Hall (Dec 6, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> Perhaps I need to clarify. This would be a vitamin and mineral supplement only. I know there are many recipes out there for gelatin-based diets. Heck, I published one in the American Association of Zoos and Aquariums Journal (or some title like that) in the mid-80's.
> 
> The difference is that this gel would just be designed to deliver the nutrients that tortoises seem to need but supermarket greens are low in, and do it in a way that is very digestible and available to the tortoise. The goal would be to offer a cube or two to the tortoise along with a nice pile of whatever fresh greens we can find.
> 
> I probably should also point out that I am thinking more and more that our tortoises need a diet that is generally higher in fiber and lower in energy than we often provide, especially in the winter.



Interesting idea, Mark! Whip up some recipes, and we'll give 'em a try! 

Do you feel that these'll be "universal" or will there need to be species-specific formulas?


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## Angi (Dec 6, 2010)

This has me very confused. Kristina ~ What I think you are saying is in the wild they would not be getting a lot of nutrition. So why is giving it to them good? I am not conterdicting you. I know you know much more than I do, so I want to understand and learn.

I eat an herbal food that I consider complete I wonder if I should give it to my torts and boxie.
This is the ingidients ; Coix Larcyma-Jobi seed, Soybean seed,Chinese Yam Root, Euryale Ferox seed,Lotus seed,Nelumbo Nucifera root,Waterlily bulb,Green bean seed, Red bean seed, black bean seed White bean seed and Imperata Root.
Would this be a good addition to the gel cube?
Also FYI Blueberries blended in to a puree turn into a gel if let set.


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## Kristina (Dec 6, 2010)

There are certain things in wild foods that are not available in grocery greens. The biggest one is calcium. In the areas where most tortoises come from in the wild, the soil is very rich in calcium, and this transmits into the plants that they eat. 

Young tortoises tend to eat softer, more nutrient rich young plants. Older tortoises eat tougher, more fibrous growth. It is a balancing act, to be honest. While young they definitely need a lot of calcium, and some other nutrient supplementation, but too much is also a bad thing as it encourages rapid growth. 

The trick is to offer enough supplementation that they are healthy, but not so much that they are growing at an un-natural rate. So how much is that? It is hard to say. That is why it is important to offer a varied diet with light supplementation and LOTS of calcium, and to closely monitor shell growth. 

As far as the supplement you are asking about, it contains a lot of legumes. I would not use it. I truly believe that while protein does not contribute to pyramiding as much as previously believed, it can and does contribute to kidney issues (renal failure) especially in grazing and Mediterranean tortoises.

Mostly I supplement my Box turtles and Redfoots. They eat more protein in the wild, and along with it the other nutrients that meats contain. They are not adapted to feeding off just grasses and fibrous weeds, although the adult Redfoots will eat grass and weeds if they are available.


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