# Sulcata vs. Redfoot in SoCal



## thegame2388 (Dec 1, 2013)

So I'm extremely interested in buying either one of these species of tortoise (and I'm going to be posting this thread on other sub-forums to get more responses) but my questions are as follows:

Either one of these species works for me; though,

1) I live in Southern California near Riverside, CA and it's pretty much summer time year-around. We lived in, what you may call a Desert environment, so it gets pretty hot during summers >100F and >70F during winters while the low's are around >70F during summers and >30F during winter time. I don't know how I can maintain the proper temperature given those extremes. 

2) I am planning on keeping the tortoises outdoors, year-round because of our relatively nice weather. I know humidity is extremely important for the redfoot, so how would something like an outdoor enclosure given the above-mentioned facts of our weather work out? Do I buy a humidifier or what? What about lighting? Will it be warm enough or cold enough to handle the tortoise's needs, year-round?

3) I know tortoises "poo" in their water pond, but how often am I supposed to clean it out? I was planning on using an upside-down frisbee for that so I'm just asking. 

4) As stated, I want the enclosure outside but I also want him/her to be free to leave his enclosure and explore our relatively big backyard. It has trees, grasses and everything everywhere. Is this okay to do (considering we have fences so he can borrow)?

Thank you all! If I have more questions, I shall post them here.


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## Team Gomberg (Dec 1, 2013)

I suggest a Sulcata (because I don't keep Redfoots and can't advice on the how to) so my answers for you will be based off that.

1- I also live in SoCal near Riverside. It's great tortoise weather! You can easily care for a Sulcata out here. I keep Leopards which have the same care.

2- Your sully can live outside year round once it reaches about 8". Before that you will keep it inside most of the day with a few hours each day outside. You wont need to provide lighting. You will need to provide a warm tortoise house for the nights (once he is outside full time). 

3- I use terra cotta saucers which are like an upside down Frisbee. Just refill it with water daily and let it overflow. Eventually when your guy is bigger you can use a large trash can lid upside down for a "pond" and just dump and refill as needed.

4- The full yard will be best for your large sully. Until then, give him an outdoor enclosure with borders so you don't loose him.

Check out some of my other threads to give you more understanding.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-83326.html
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-66667-page-2.html

Hope this helps!


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## thegame2388 (Dec 1, 2013)

Team Gomberg said:


> I suggest a Sulcata (because I don't keep Redfoots and can't advice on the how to) so my answers for you will be based off that.
> 
> 1- I also live in SoCal near Riverside. It's great tortoise weather! You can easily care for a Sulcata out here. I keep Leopards which have the same care.
> 
> ...




Thank you. Further questions:

1. Given my question, do you suggest even buying any UV equipment or warmth/cool equipment if he/she is to stay outside? 

2. Given our environment, do I provide humidity or is it just warm/cool parts of the enclosure? It will probably be about 4' x 8' which I'll try getting from a bookshelf and it'll be HUGE for a baby sulcata. I'm not too sure how to get ONE side of the enclosure to be warm enough for the cold nights, and yet cold enough for he hot/dry nights.

3. Sounds like a great idea! Thanks.

4. I'll give him a big space haha.


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## N2TORTS (Dec 1, 2013)

You can actually keep both were you live â€¦each with a little different care involved. The one thing to ask yourself is â€œ How big of an animal do I really want to deal with in 10-15 yearsâ€ Sullies get BIG â€¦very big â€¦.they destroy every planter, plant , bush - the side of your house ( if you use that as a barrier wall) and love to burrow. Now of course a set up that accommodates these needs that include some well thought out fence lines and Strong decorative boarders and or a plain jane approach more like â€œgrazing stablesâ€ . The torts themselves while ultra fun to interact with and full of personality , although 99% all look the same â€¦â€¦.eat more and poop even bigger â€¦.
On the flip side â€¦.. RFâ€™s / Cherrys â€¦.remain small , do well in groups â€¦.your set up can be incorporated into your yardscape and more of a jungle type ( although not common in Riverside - haha ha ) tons of colors and varieties â€¦they too are very friendly and fun to interact with . Broader range of foods, need more humidityâ€¦â€¦
There are many other variables to consider these is just some of the top of my head having experience with both species. 







J~


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## bigred (Dec 1, 2013)

I have had sulcatas and redfoots as well and still have redfoots. JD is right as far as sulcatas getting big, are you ready to deal with a sulcata that is going to be 150 lbs and can destroy your backyard. If you can deal with that then sulcatas are very cool torts. Redfoots stay alot smaller and are pretty neat torts to


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## Millerlite (Dec 1, 2013)

We are spoiled in so cal. You can keep anything really. Lol. We have it way easier then most the us


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## N2TORTS (Dec 1, 2013)

Just for size Tg88..........
Here is a young adult Sullie .....crossing paths with an adult Redfoot


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## Team Gomberg (Dec 1, 2013)

Jeff, that picture really is worth 1,000 words! :-O


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## Tom (Dec 1, 2013)

I think by the time you do some more research and figure out what all is involved with each species, the best choice for you will become clear. Either species is going to need some help to live outside in your area.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to keep some other species in consideration while you do your research.


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## thegame2388 (Dec 1, 2013)

I'm leaning towards the Sulcata because they of their size. We have a huge backyard, though I have no idea where we'll end up being in 5-10-20 years, but it sure as heck will never be an apartment. So we'll always have a huge range for it in the backyard.

My highest concern, like I mentioned, is the heating/cooling of the enclosure and what to do to keep a relatively warm place like 80-85F.

Apart from that, I'm good to go.


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## thegame2388 (Dec 2, 2013)

Also, for the outdoor enclosure, how do I maintain the heat?

I know CHE's are available, but the enclosure will be "open"; that is, it won't have a top. It'll be in a kiddie swimming pool or something large so how can a CHE even give off heat if there's nothing to contain it?

Thanks


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## Tom (Dec 2, 2013)

Two different strategies for babies and adults:

For BABIES you need a closed chamber indoors and a secure enclosure for outdoors. You put them out for an hour or two a day when the weather is nice, and you leave them inside over night or when the weather is too hot or cold. Trying to raise one outside full time does not work well here. It is too dry and the temperatures are too extreme.
Here are closed chamber ideas: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-32333.html
Here are outdoor enclosure ideas: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-30683.html
Care sheet for babies: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-79895.html
Diet sheet for sulcatas: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-76744.html
Info for how to not buy one that will die in a few weeks or months: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-23493.html

You don't heat babies when they are outside. If temps are not right, you leave them inside. As they get older and gain size, you can leave them out longer and longer. By the time mine are around 6", they stay outside all day, weather permitting, but still sleep inside in there humid closed chambers. Once they hit around 8-10" I move them outside full time. See below for those details...


For ADULTS in our area:
You just let them live outside and provide them with a warm box to retreat to at night or on cold days.
Here is a night box thread: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-66867.html
Here is my favorite enclosure ever. This is ideal if you can swing it. Perfect for winter AND summer: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-28662.html



Finally, I hope you like gardening, because you will need to grow a large amount of stuff for them to eat. Sulcatas are ravenous and nearly every new keeper is shocked at how much food they can put away. Its really easy to feed a tiny baby, but once they hit about 5-6" it is astounding how much food disappears down their gullet... On the bright side, I think sulcatas have the best personalities of any species out there. Nothing wrong with the other species, but sulcatas are just different.


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## thegame2388 (Dec 2, 2013)

Tom said:


> Two different strategies for babies and adults:
> 
> For BABIES you need a closed chamber indoors and a secure enclosure for outdoors. You put them out for an hour or two a day when the weather is nice, and you leave them inside over night or when the weather is too hot or cold. Trying to raise one outside full time does not work well here. It is too dry and the temperatures are too extreme.
> Here are closed chamber ideas: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-32333.html
> ...



But even for the adult sulcatas, how would one maintain 80F in a open enclosure outdoors? I'm thinking about buying one of those Dogloos and hanging a CHE from it.


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## knechtion53 (Dec 2, 2013)

I have 2 Sulcatas and I live in NorCal East Bay. I use a Dogloo with a CHE for my 3 yr old who is about 15 inches long. The house is located in a covered area to shelter from rain and wind. I put a waterproof, insulated cover over the Dogloo as well.
My larger Sulcata, about 27 inches, uses a small outdoor portable shed with a "pig blanket" heat source attached to the floor. It too is in a partially sheltered area with waterproof tarps covering it. The shed has a double door opening with a top that lifts. I close my tort completely in for the night but open one door during the daytime.
My Sulcatas each have their own separate fenced enclosures.


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## Dizisdalife (Dec 2, 2013)

thegame2388 said:


> But even for the adult sulcatas, how would one maintain 80F in a open enclosure outdoors? I'm thinking about buying one of those Dogloos and hanging a CHE from it.



You don't. Or at least you don't in Southern Cal. Like Tom said, in the previous post, babies are kept inside in a closed chamber where the temps can be closely controlled. They are taken outside only when the weather provides the right conditions. They get more and more outdoor exposure as the grow. When they get bigger a heated house (your igloo with a CHE probably won't be warm enough for those 30F winter nights) is provided for night time and to stay in on those cloudy, cold, winter days. Adults can hold their heat for a while and can therefor come out to eat, drink, and exercise on most sunny winter days in Southern Cal. My sulcata was over a year old when he first begin to stay outside all day. For the next year or so I took him outside each morning and brought him inside each afternoon. On cold winter days he stayed inside all day. Now he lives outside full time. He is over 35 lbs and has a heated house that he goes into every night. The temperature in the house is maintained by a 500 watt, oil filled heater on a thermostat.


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## Tom (Dec 2, 2013)

thegame2388 said:


> But even for the adult sulcatas, how would one maintain 80F in a open enclosure outdoors? I'm thinking about buying one of those Dogloos and hanging a CHE from it.



As Joe said, no need to. They do just fine in cooler temps as long as they have a warm box to retreat to. The 80 degree thing is a good minimum for hatchlings. Older ones do fine outdoors.

Dogloos and such really don't work well. The door openings are too big and let all the heat out, plus they are not well insulated enough. Also, an over head CHE tends to burn the carapace of a large or high domed tortoise and still not warm the air or the rest of the tortoise enough. I much prefer radiant heat panels mounted to the ceiling over a Kane heat mat, or an oil filled radiant heater like the one in my night box thread above, and the one Joe uses.


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## thegame2388 (Dec 3, 2013)

So then I guess I shall be constructing or making my own closed enclosure and heat that baby up to 85F using CHE's and light bulbs using a two socket thermostat (which I hope can regulate two different temps)


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## Tom (Dec 3, 2013)

thegame2388 said:


> So then I guess I shall be constructing or making my own closed enclosure and heat that baby up to 85F using CHE's and light bulbs using a two socket thermostat (which I hope can regulate two different temps)



Here is how I do it: I set my thermostat for my CHE(s) to 80. Then I put my basking bulbs on a timer for about 12 hours. The CHEs kick on and off all night and keep the temp where I set it, then in the morning the basking bulbs kick on. The basking bulbs usually heat up the entire closed chamber and the ambient slowly climbs. On cold winter days, my ambient climbs to 82-84. On hot summer days, my ambient climbs to 93-94. I still leave the basking lights on, and those little sulcata babies still bask even with an ambient in the 90s. Once the light timer shuts the basking lamps off, my ambient temp slowly drops to 80 and then the CHEs do there job of not letting it drop below 80.

I also use a florescent tube for additional lighting. I don't use any artificial UV, but a person who needs it could use a florescent UV tube here.

Basking bulb wattage will have to be adjusted for the size of the enclosure and amount of ventilation in any given enclosure. In my 4x8' chambers I use two 65 watt flood bulbs, two 100 watt CHEs, and a 48" florescent tube. On the tubes, I prefer color temps of 5000-6500K. Most bulbs are 2500K and they look yellowish to me. This color temp info will be displayed on the bulbs packaging at the hardware store. The UV bulbs just come in whatever color they come in, but they don't look yellowish.


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## thegame2388 (Dec 3, 2013)

Tom said:


> thegame2388 said:
> 
> 
> > So then I guess I shall be constructing or making my own closed enclosure and heat that baby up to 85F using CHE's and light bulbs using a two socket thermostat (which I hope can regulate two different temps)
> ...



This is going to sound really stupid, but I'm not exactly the most handy-man of people, and I can't really build anything.

So how would someone like me go about and purchasing a turtle enclosure that has high enough ceiling for me to hang lights and CHE (I'd like about 30+ gallons volume). 

Also, I want the top or the side of the enclosure to be open (slide doors or just something you can slide, or take off, yet still see-through so UV can penetrate). So help me out please!


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## Team Gomberg (Dec 3, 2013)

Buy a 75 gallon aquarium from craigslist for cheap. You can make a top for the tank that will hold the lights inside the tank. 
Closed chamber, easy to do and looks nice..


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## thegame2388 (Dec 3, 2013)

Team Gomberg said:


> Buy a 75 gallon aquarium from craigslist for cheap. You can make a top for the tank that will hold the lights inside the tank.
> Closed chamber, easy to do and looks nice..



Is the glass thick enough to maintain humidity and heat?

Moreover, how do I make a "top"? LOL


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## Tom (Dec 3, 2013)

thegame2388 said:


> This is going to sound really stupid, but I'm not exactly the most handy-man of people, and I can't really build anything.
> 
> So how would someone like me go about and purchasing a turtle enclosure that has high enough ceiling for me to hang lights and CHE (I'd like about 30+ gallons volume).
> 
> Also, I want the top or the side of the enclosure to be open (slide doors or just something you can slide, or take off, yet still see-through so UV can penetrate). So help me out please!



Not stupid at all man. Here is a thread just for you: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-58180.html


A couple of things:
1. 30 gallons is way too small. Sulcatas grow fast. A 40 gallon will only last a a month or two. I start my hatchlings in a 4x8' enclosure. This lasts them until they are too big to be inside.

2. UV won't penetrate glass and screens filter it out.


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## Dizisdalife (Dec 3, 2013)

thegame2388 said:


> Team Gomberg said:
> 
> 
> > Buy a 75 gallon aquarium from craigslist for cheap. You can make a top for the tank that will hold the lights inside the tank.
> ...



The glass is thick enough. A top can be made from almost any material. Plexiglass is one that I see mentioned often. Read the closed chamber thread (http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-32333.html). There are some examples in there for building a top. They don't come with "how to" instructions though. Start with a material that you can work with. My first top was made from thin plywood with aluminum foil wrapped around it. Later I switched to plexiglass because it could seal the top better. When I first came to this forum the things I knew the least about were caring for a sulcata, building anything, and growing anything. Now I know a little more about caring for a sulcata, I am gaining confidence as a builder, and I have a pretty good garden. I think it all comes with the territory.


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## Team Gomberg (Dec 3, 2013)

Many of us use glass tanks. They work great and yes will keep in heat and humidity. I prefer them to wood because I'm afraid of mold or sealing the wood. Glass is just soooo much easier (for me  )
Keep in mind the ambient room temperature where you keep it will effect the enclosure temps slightly. But keeping the tank in the average household, you'll be just fine. I wouldn't keep a glass tank converted closed chamber in a cold garage. You'd need to insulate it so might as well build one if you plan to keep it outside the house.

Get a material (Joe gave you some ideas) and cut it to fit on top of the tank. Then mount the lights to the underside of the top so they are in the tank. I'm on the hunt right now for a 55 or 75 gallon to do the same thing. Right now I use a 40 gallon with the lights on top. I have made it work but I want to go bigger since I have more hatchlings. (leopards not sulcata but raised the same)


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## thegame2388 (Dec 4, 2013)

Team Gomberg said:


> Many of us use glass tanks. They work great and yes will keep in heat and humidity. I prefer them to wood because I'm afraid of mold or sealing the wood. Glass is just soooo much easier (for me  )
> Keep in mind the ambient room temperature where you keep it will effect the enclosure temps slightly. But keeping the tank in the average household, you'll be just fine. I wouldn't keep a glass tank converted closed chamber in a cold garage. You'd need to insulate it so might as well build one if you plan to keep it outside the house.
> 
> Get a material (Joe gave you some ideas) and cut it to fit on top of the tank. Then mount the lights to the underside of the top so they are in the tank. I'm on the hunt right now for a 55 or 75 gallon to do the same thing. Right now I use a 40 gallon with the lights on top. I have made it work but I want to go bigger since I have more hatchlings. (leopards not sulcata but raised the same)



Yeah this makes sense. I just thought having a wooden enclosure with a side glass-sliding doors wouldn't keep the heat for an outside habitat.

My problem is that I have no idea how to make sliding doors, and for the top, I want to have some sort of "door" so I can easily stick my hand in and out, while leaving the wiring intact.

Then again, I could always just have a one-inch diamater hole from the backside of the box that would be enough for all the wiring, leaving the top "top" free of anything.

But I would need special clamps that are attached to the top of the "ceiling" that would be disturbed if I removed the top.

I'm probably overthinking this.


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## thegame2388 (Dec 6, 2013)

New question:

I have pretty much every down, except one thing:

Timers.

I want a CHE (that will be hooked to a thermostat) so this is outta the way.

But for the basking light, I want to program it so that it's on from dusk-dawn


But I also want a "dark light" for basking during nighttime from dawn-dusk, and every digital timer I've seen, you can't program each individual socket...either they're ALL going to be dusk-dawn or none at all. 

I could solve this program by buying TWO different timers but I figured I'd ask here first.


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## Tom (Dec 6, 2013)

Yes two timers would give you that, but I suggest you don't do it. Leave it all dark at night and let your CHE and thermostat control the temps.

They should be sleeping in a humid hide at night, not out basking under some funky colored light.


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## Team Gomberg (Dec 6, 2013)

*Re: RE: Sulcata vs. Redfoot in SoCal*



Tom said:


> Yes two timers would give you that, but I suggest you don't do it. Leave it all dark at night and let your CHE and thermostat control the temps.
> 
> They should be sleeping in a humid hide at night, not out basking under some funky colored light.



Agreed.


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## thegame2388 (Dec 6, 2013)

Tom said:


> Yes two timers would give you that, but I suggest you don't do it. Leave it all dark at night and let your CHE and thermostat control the temps.
> 
> They should be sleeping in a humid hide at night, not out basking under some funky colored light.



But it won't be colored. I'll get one of those "dark" lights that mimic the moonlight or I can just get another CHE and have it pointed straight down for 12 hours during the night while the main CHE is maintaining ambient temperature in the upper corner of the enclosure.


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## Team Gomberg (Dec 6, 2013)

Lights are either white, or colored.

Basking isn't needed at night. Basking helps them heat up and aid digestion. They don't need to bask at night. "basking" to 95F at night is un natural.

A basking light for the day, CHE on thermostat to maintain ambient day and your night temps is perfect.


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## Tom (Dec 6, 2013)

thegame2388 said:


> But it won't be colored. I'll get one of those "dark" lights that mimic the moonlight or I can just get another CHE and have it pointed straight down for 12 hours during the night while the main CHE is maintaining ambient temperature in the upper corner of the enclosure.



As heather said, those bulbs are colored, as in they are not the normal "white" bulbs that simulate day light.

Your CHE should be used to maintain ambient all over the whole enclosure, not just an upper corner, day and night. In a larger enclosure you might need two CHEs and/or higher wattage, but it should all be controlled on a thermostat.


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## thegame2388 (Dec 6, 2013)

Tom said:


> thegame2388 said:
> 
> 
> > But it won't be colored. I'll get one of those "dark" lights that mimic the moonlight or I can just get another CHE and have it pointed straight down for 12 hours during the night while the main CHE is maintaining ambient temperature in the upper corner of the enclosure.
> ...



I'm planning on getting a 150w CHE to maintain 85-90F in a 6'x4'x2' enclosure.

Extra question: For humidifiers and mist-control devices, would it logical to be a humidity controller so it can be monitor rather than using a digital timer on a humidity device running every 2 hours for 30 mins (that's just an example)?


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## thegame2388 (Dec 7, 2013)

Extra question #2:

I was wondering, just purely based on size, is 6' x 4' x 2' too big? 

I plan on using this for years to come so that's why I felt like it's big enough, but when I actually used a measuring tape, I was taken aback by just how HUGE that is. 

So then I'm considering doing 6' x 2' x 2'.

What are you guys' thoughts?

Thanks,


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## Tom (Dec 7, 2013)

thegame2388 said:


> I'm planning on getting a 150w CHE to maintain 85-90F in a 6'x4'x2' enclosure.
> 
> Extra question: For humidifiers and mist-control devices, would it logical to be a humidity controller so it can be monitor rather than using a digital timer on a humidity device running every 2 hours for 30 mins (that's just an example)?



You don't need 85-90. You need 80. Just set the CHE at 80 ands then let your basking bulbs do the work or keeping it warm in the daytime. In a closed chamber the basking bulbs will tent to creep the temp up during the day and so your CHE will remain off.

You will not need humidifiers and misters in a closed chamber.




thegame2388 said:


> Extra question #2:
> 
> I was wondering, just purely based on size, is 6' x 4' x 2' too big?
> 
> ...



I typed this up for you yesterday, but my computer said your PMs are disabled. I was in a poor signal area...

Here is what I typed up:

Go get a couple of cinder blocks and duct tape them together. Now move THAT around inside the box dimensions you envisioned. This is how big and heavy your sulcata will be in a couple of years and then it will be time to move him outside. I recommend 4x8'. I started five hatchlings in a 4x8' in May of 2012, and I had to move them all outside permanently in June of 2013, because they were way to big for it. With just one, it will last a little longer. Having an outside pen and only using the indoor 4x8' for colder weather and nights will serve you very well for about two years. Then it will be time for a heated night box and the great outdoors full time.

6x2' might last you for six months tops. 6x4' will be better, but even that will be small with an active healthy 8" sulcata and all the furniture. Plus if you are already buying an 8x4' sheet of plywood, why not just use all of it and save yourself some saw cuts.


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## thegame2388 (Dec 7, 2013)

Tom said:


> thegame2388 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm planning on getting a 150w CHE to maintain 85-90F in a 6'x4'x2' enclosure.
> ...





Answer #1: The closed chamber is outside, not inside and it gets dry. Getting an automated system going seems pretty logical to me for the thermostat and humidistat. 

Answer #2: How many gallons is 6x4x2? I think it's something like 350 which is enormously huge compared to what most people recommended me to get which was 75 gallons. An 8" after one-year would still fit extremely comfortable. As for the cinder blocks, once it gets that huge, I will make another outdoor shed.


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## Tom (Dec 7, 2013)

Well I guess you don't need my help. Good luck.


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## Team Gomberg (Dec 7, 2013)

I was going to second what Tom advised. But if you didn't agree with him, you won't agree with me.

Well, I still do second what he said. It's sound advice.


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## thegame2388 (Dec 7, 2013)

Team Gomberg said:


> I was going to second what Tom advised. But if you didn't agree with him, you won't agree with me.
> 
> Well, I still do second what he said. It's sound advice.



I was just trying to clarify if my logic makes any sense.


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## Team Gomberg (Dec 7, 2013)

In that case, 


> Answer #1: The closed chamber is outside, not inside and it gets dry. Getting an automated system going seems pretty logical to me for the thermostat and humidistat.
> 
> Answer #2: How many gallons is 6x4x2? I think it's something like 350 which is enormously huge compared to what most people recommended me to get which was 75 gallons. An 8" after one-year would still fit extremely comfortable. As for the cinder blocks, once it gets that huge, I will make another outdoor shed.



I don't recommend a closed chamber outside. The temperature fluctuation will be affect your chamber too much. If you must house your chamber outside or in a garage, then I suggest you insulate it with 1.5" rigid foam insulation on the top, bottom and every wall. 

We tell you that a humidifier isn't needed in a closed chamber because it isn't. Think of when you shower in the bathroom. Hot and steamy shower. If the bathroom door is closed all the heat and steam stays in the bathroom. Now lets say after your shower when you leave you close the bathroom door behind you. Walk into the bathroom a few hours later and you are hit with a hot and steam room, still! That's the closed chamber. A closed bathroom door. The humidity will stay there. You wont need a humidifier going off every few hours because unless you have holes, it aint going anywhere..

Forget the 75gallon tank. That could work for a while. But do you want to build one enclosure to last you the whole time or build 2 or 3 chambers over the next 2 years? Its up to you. 
If you want to do it only once then do the 4x8. or 6x4. Have you been around a sulcata in person? Not just seen their photos but held a one or 2 year old? Walked along side a 150lb adult? You might think the 6x2 is too big...but if a sulcata breeder and keeper who has many of them tells you that is too small, then I'd believe them.


Another tip. I've NEVER heard a tort keeper regret making their enclosure "too big". It's always "I wish I had gone BIGGER!!" 

I recently made an insulated heated tortoise house for outside. I made it 4x2 and before I had even officially finished the project I regretted not making it at least 4x4.


Also, use gallon measurements for fish. Use floor space, square footage for tortoises.


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## thegame2388 (Dec 7, 2013)

Team Gomberg said:


> In that case,
> 
> 
> > Answer #1: The closed chamber is outside, not inside and it gets dry. Getting an automated system going seems pretty logical to me for the thermostat and humidistat.
> ...







Awesome reply! What if the bathroom door opens enough times so that the humidify goes away? Then would you recommend a humidifier? Automation is an awesome way to maintain humidity.

Just out of curiosity, what's wrong with having a closed enclosure outdoors?

I plan on using the 6x4x2 for a while, then opening one of the sides once the tortoise is big enough to live outside full-time (like in my backyard grass).


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## Team Gomberg (Dec 7, 2013)

I open the lid to my chamber regularly. Getting them out for soaks, putting food in, topping off the water. The humidity may drop briefly but it usually rises again once I close the top. Every so often I might dump the water dish into the substrate or overflow it when I fill it up. This is usually all that is needed to boost humidity after it is gradually lost from the opening of the lid/door. Sometimes I add a few squirts with a water bottle. BUT it is in no way often enough to require a humidifier. It might be a week or more before I add a squirt or overflow the water dish. A smaller sleeping chamber I have has gone 2 weeks now with no water added and the humidity is still in the high 90s.

The problem with a closed chamber outside: 
Lets use my chamber for example. It's in my bedroom. My range of temps inside the chamber are as follows. Basking-95F, Warm end in the 90s, Cool end in the 80s and Night time never drops below 80F. My bedroom itself may average in temperature from 75-80F.
During the summer it gets hot, really hot in this room. If I don't have the A/C running I've seen my bedroom temps spike up to 98F (I have digital thermometers in all my human rooms, too) This has caused my chamber to also spike in temps. It's gone up to 130F in there at the basking area. Way too hot. The cool end has crept up to 97F. Way too warm. (No torts were harmed..they were enjoying their pens outdoors )
I manage my bedroom temps during the heat by either A- mostly running my A/C, B- changing out light bulbs for lower wattage or C- leaving the leopards outside in their heavily planted, shaded pens while its too hot inside.
The opposite happens in winter. It gets down to 60F in my room if the heater isn't on. I tested the chamber just not too long ago with no leopards in there. With no heater on in my house and a low wattage basking bulb the chamber temps dropped down to 85Fbasking and 78Fcool end. The CHE on thermostat was on but couldn't bump the temps higher than that.
I manage the colder weather by either A- mostly running my heater or B- changing out light bulbs for higher wattage.

These are extreme examples. But they prove a point. My chamber temps fluctuate to some degree based on the ambient temperature of my bedroom. Now, can you imagine what would happen to your chamber being outside? It was 27F the other night. It's been 110F in the summer. 

If you MUST keep a chamber or enclosure outside you need to insulate it. By insulating a tort house or box it can help keep temps stable. I just built a fully insulated 4x2 tortoise house for when the leopards are in the yard. It has 1.5" rigid foam insulation sandwiched between plywood for the floor, roof, all 4 walls and the door. I use a small oil filled radiator with a thermostat to heat it. My temps stay a perfect 80-83F all the time despite the cold weather. I placed it North facing, in the shade of a block wall and under a covering in hopes that it will also keep pretty cool in the summer. 

These are some of the things you learn through trial and error. I didn't understand how much my chamber temps would fluctuate. Now I get it completely. When those of us like Tom or myself offer you our opinion on how to do it, it's because we've "been there done that" and are trying to spare others from making the mistakes or wasting time. 

Keep asking questions. But also read, read, READ. There is so much information already written out in this forum. One thing is for sure... you'd be wise to make sure you understand this and get set up for the tortoise BEFORE you bring him home 

Good Luck, hope this helps!


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## thegame2388 (Dec 7, 2013)

Team Gomberg said:


> I open the lid to my chamber regularly. Getting them out for soaks, putting food in, topping off the water. The humidity may drop briefly but it usually rises again once I close the top. Every so often I might dump the water dish into the substrate or overflow it when I fill it up. This is usually all that is needed to boost humidity after it is gradually lost from the opening of the lid/door. Sometimes I add a few squirts with a water bottle. BUT it is in no way often enough to require a humidifier. It might be a week or more before I add a squirt or overflow the water dish. A smaller sleeping chamber I have has gone 2 weeks now with no water added and the humidity is still in the high 90s.
> 
> The problem with a closed chamber outside:
> Lets use my chamber for example. It's in my bedroom. My range of temps inside the chamber are as follows. Basking-95F, Warm end in the 90s, Cool end in the 80s and Night time never drops below 80F. My bedroom itself may average in temperature from 75-80F.
> ...



Thank you!

Good thing about my area in southern California is that we are pretty stable year-round. We don't have defined seasons like Chicago or Florida.

I had a third question:

3) Does the Sulcata poop? I know it may poop in the water bowl or whatever, but do I clean that up? Daily? Weekly? Monthly? How often?


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## Team Gomberg (Dec 7, 2013)

You said you are near Riverside. I am too. I'm specifically talking about "our" weather extremes. Not Chicago or FL. Here in Corona/Riverside it has been 27F the past few nights and this past summer we hit 110F more than once. 
I still hold to the opinion that a "closed chamber" for a hatchling sulcata wont work outdoors here.

If you are going to try it either it will work great, or it wont. Report back to us which it is.

Yes they poop. Multiple times a day. When they are little the poop is little. When they are big the poop is BIG. Picture horse poop. But instead of in many small balls, lots of massive logs. If you don't clean it up either the sulcata will re eat it or if you have a dog, he may try to get to it first.


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## Dizisdalife (Dec 7, 2013)

Everyone that has posted to this thread so far is from Southern California. All have raised sulcata and/or refoot tortoises from hatchling to adulthood.



Team Gomberg said:


> I still hold to the opinion that a "closed chamber" for a hatchling sulcata wont work outdoors here.
> 
> If you are going to try it either it will work great, or it wont. Report back to us which it is.



I agree, but that is just my opinion. I have not see it done, or seen a design for outdoor closed chamber that I would feel comfortable putting a baby in. Besides, I want my baby inside where I can observe and interact with it. 

Like Heather, I encourage you to build it and share the results so that we can all learn from it.


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## thegame2388 (Dec 7, 2013)

Team Gomberg said:


> You said you are near Riverside. I am too. I'm specifically talking about "our" weather extremes. Not Chicago or FL. Here in Corona/Riverside it has been 27F the past few nights and this past summer we hit 110F more than once.
> I still hold to the opinion that a "closed chamber" for a hatchling sulcata wont work outdoors here.
> 
> If you are going to try it either it will work great, or it wont. Report back to us which it is.
> ...



Do I have to clean it daily? Weekly? Monthly?


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## Team Gomberg (Dec 7, 2013)

When your guy is an adult, if you don't clean it up right away, he will....by re eating it. And if he doesn't re eat his Monday poop on Monday, he might eat it on Tuesday. And if he chooses not to re eat his poop at all then he will walk in it and smear it everywhere....
Point blank, clean it daily dude. 

When they are babies most of the time they poop in soaks and you simply flush it down the toilet.


Any sulcata owners wanna share their first hand poop horror stories? Lol


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## thegame2388 (Dec 8, 2013)

Team Gomberg said:


> When your guy is an adult, if you don't clean it up right away, he will....by re eating it. And if he doesn't re eat his Monday poop on Monday, he might eat it on Tuesday. And if he chooses not to re eat his poop at all then he will walk in it and smear it everywhere....
> Point blank, clean it daily dude.
> 
> When they are babies most of the time they poop in soaks and you simply flush it down the toilet.
> ...





Gotcha.

And at what point will a 6x4x2 enclosure be too small for a sulcata? Age 3?


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## Dizisdalife (Dec 8, 2013)

thegame2388 said:


> And at what point will a 6x4x2 enclosure be too small for a sulcata? Age 3?



The point is more by size than by age. In my opinion the 6'x4'x2' indoor enclosure will be of use to you until your sulcata is about 8-10 inches scl (straight carapace length). However, it should not be the only enclosure for the sulcata. Good husbandry dictates that a baby sulcata be given ever increasing amounts of exposure to the outdoors (weather permitting) from an early age until permanent outdoor residency. For example, a 3-4 inch baby may have supervised outdoor time for 30-45 minutes several times a week. A 4-6 inch baby would get a couple of hours a day outside in a 4'x8' pen that has a wire mesh top for protection if not supervised full time. A 6-8 inch baby, perhaps a year old at this point, would have a 4'x'16' outdoor pen and spend most of the day in it. At 8-10 inches, perhaps 2 years old at this point, you may have an 8'x 16' pen for your sulcata and also allow him to "free roam" while supervised several times a week. In each of these phases of growth you will be bringing your sulcata inside at night to sleep safely in that 6'x4'x2' enclosure. It will be much too small for him to do much else but sleep in. At 10-12 inches your sulcata will need as big of a outdoor pen as you can give him. Mine is roughly 50' x 60' and I wish I had more room. He is too big to bring inside and so, like most keepers, I have constructed a insulated, heated house for him. It protects him from the weather and I can lock it at night to protect him from predators (raccoons, possum, rats, cats, coyote). I did not transfer the indoor enclosure to the outdoor pen because the logistics of making that transition just didn't allow for it. Plus, a 6'x4'x2' enclosure is not something you can put under your arm and carry out to the back yard. One constructed to withstand the elements, and I am talking Sunny San Diego climate and not the harsh, extreme Riverside climate, the enclosure is very, very heavy.

The tortoise sizes and pen sizes listed above are merely suggestive and not intended as a guide to raising a sulcata. It is intended to make the reader aware that the needs of their baby sulcata are in a continual state of change as it grows, and grows, and, well you know what they do. They grow. It is my opinion that a closed chamber of some size is the best type of enclosure for a sulcata during their first year and can continue to be useful during their second year if it is large enough.


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## thegame2388 (Dec 8, 2013)

Dizisdalife said:


> thegame2388 said:
> 
> 
> > And at what point will a 6x4x2 enclosure be too small for a sulcata? Age 3?
> ...



Well I plan on having this enclosure outside 24/7 and heat that baby up. Shouldn't be too difficult with a 150w CHE. 

I thought about cutting a small opening and letting the sulcata out whenever he wants provided that I have a small fenced-area. 

I'm more worried about cleaning up the poop to be honest. Everything else is pretty much automated.


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## Team Gomberg (Dec 8, 2013)

It's true, you go by size not age.

You seem set on the outside chamber. I hope you come back and share your results with us.


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## thegame2388 (Dec 10, 2013)

I'm going to downsize to 4x3x2 feet for the baby hatchling sulcata for the first few years.


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## Team Gomberg (Dec 10, 2013)

*Re: RE: Sulcata vs. Redfoot in SoCal*



thegame2388 said:


> I'm going to downsize to 4x3x2 feet for the baby hatchling sulcata for the first few years.



I'm pretty sure when they are raised correctly, they hit a foot in size before their second year. Keep that in mind....


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## thegame2388 (Dec 27, 2013)

Team Gomberg said:


> thegame2388 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to downsize to 4x3x2 feet for the baby hatchling sulcata for the first few years.
> ...



My enclosure was built today. Time to buy all the supplies!!!


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