# What do I use to decorate a hatchling red foot 20 gallon tank? Fake Plants? Rocks?



## HermanRedFoot (May 31, 2009)

Hello!

Im currently in the process of purchasing a red footed hatchling from a reptile store in my city and I was just wondering about its living space. I have outdoor carpeting as the base and I have a hollowed out wooden log for his hide. I was just wondering if it would be okay if I decorated its tank with fake plants or something. I want my tortoise to be surrounded by a nice atmospher.

Thanks and cant wait for the responses!!

-Samantha


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## Candy (May 31, 2009)

Hello and welcome to the forum. Redfoots like humidity as they come from the rainforests we use moss as our substrate in our enclosure. They also like to hide in it. It's o.k. to put fake plants, but if you can put live ones in that might help with the humidity. What kind of heating system are you going to use?


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## tortoisenerd (May 31, 2009)

Welcome to the forum!

Why the cage carpet? For a redfoot you need high humidity. See redfoots.com for info; it's a great site. You want substrate you can keep moist to simulate the natural environment. You can probably get some real plants growing in there. Check out past posts in the enclosure section for redfoots to get an idea. Some here have created some rather cool oasis-type enclosures, inside and outdoors.

Please please do your research. Hatchlings are very fragile, and many don't make it, even with expert care. I got a hatchling and although he is thriving, I regret it. It's very easy to think you have all the husbandry down pat, but all of us make mistakes. Lots of incorrect info out there on the internet too. By the time they show any symptoms of being sick, it is many times too late. Have a vet lined up. Take the tort the first week you get it; have a fecal test done. 

Take anything the pet shop says with a grain of salt--a lot of times they are just trying to sell you the junk they think is best. Most of the time they are ill-informed. This website and redfoots.com (they also have a forum, as much as we love having you here) are the best I have come across, and haven't known of anyone being steered wrong.

Aquariums usually aren't recommended for torts, but done right with some air circulation and a gradient of temperatures, the rain forest tort species are about the only torts that typically can thrive in them (the 20 gallon won't last you too long for size though, and they are expensive to replace). You may consider Rubbermaid tubs. Not as aesthetically pleasing, but cheaper to replace as the tort grows. Easier to have a temperature gradient, and also easy to keep humid (you can cover parts of it, and add water to the correct substrate). 

If you do use an aquarium: Watch out that the tort does not nose up to the glass. Sometimes they can make their little noses raw trying to get out because it is clear. Cover the sides in paper (probably on the outside unless it's plastic-covered paper because you will need very high humidity) to prevent this. They sell some cool plant picture borders made of plastic for aquariums that might work well for this, and make a nice environment as well. 

Check out user "terryo", Terry, and her enclosure for Pio, as well as the redfoots.com site.

Please let us know more about what you plan for husbandry--food to feed it, heating/lighting, temperature, humidity, Calcium supplement, cage furnishings, etc.

Yes, fake plants are fine. Just watch the tortoise to make sure they don't go past the test nibble and try to eat it. Mine likes to hide under his fake plants. I have a species which doesn't need quite as much humidity to thrive (he has dry substrate), and I don't do well with plants, so the fake plants work great for us.

I have for my Russian: slate tile for feeding, water dish, two fake plants, log hide, hay pile hide (he doesn't like traditional hides like flower pots or boxes), and driftwood to cuddle up to. That will give you an idea of how fast that little enclosure will fill up. They like to walk around the borders, so you want enough clearance for that.

Watch out for the "junk" they sell in pet stores that doesn't do anything and just takes up space. Any cage furnishings should either serve as a hiding place, a line of site blocker (the tort should not be able to see all the way across the enclosure; it makes it seem small to them), food/water, etc. Don't buy the typical food dish because most torts have a hard time using them with the lip. They just push it out of there anyways. A tile works great. I use half for a hatchling and it still gives him a lot of space to push food around. You don't want them eating substrate with the food, but the substrate should be edible and not cause impaction just in case. Water dishes for hatchlings can be tough and it may be trial and error to find one they can use well (get in and out of; their legs are short). It needs to be big enough for the tort to completely soak in.

Also keep in mind the enclosure will need to grow with the tort. As it gets bigger, you will need bigger enclosures. You cannot give it a huge enclosure at first either because then you get the shrinking enclosure as the tort grows (from their perspective).

Best wishes!


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## Crazy1 (May 31, 2009)

Hi Samantha, welcome to the forum. I suggest you look at www.redfoots.com and check out their hatchling enclosures at http://www.redfoots.com/henclose.htm

Though I do not care for tanks, some people like them, especially when the tort needs a humid environment. I would cover the glass up to the height it can see out. This will give it a more secure feeling. Redfoots like it darker and more humid that a lot of torts.

Check out http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-7011.html?highlight=pio post #5 Also please note that the varigated vine (plant) in Pio's enclosure is a pothos and is said to be toxic to torts.


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## Itort (May 31, 2009)

I have one suggestion and I feel it is very important. Don't use outdoor carpeting. The tort will injest it and it does not easily pass causing an intestional abstruction. I suggest using sphagrum moss as it holds moisture well and is very well accepted by redfoots.


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## HermanRedFoot (May 31, 2009)

The guy at the pet store apparently owns 9 red foot tortoise and he suggested the outdoor carpeting. I asked him if moss would be okay and he gave me a whole story about how it can be bad for the tort if they injest it. I was initally going to use a type of moss for the base!!! Ive been researching this for about 3 weeks and I am forcing myself to wait another 3 weeks to do even more research (hence, thats why I came here!)

On the internet, there are many different opinons about everything from feeding to living environment. Im confused with all the opinons and contradictions. That is why I am waiting. The outdoor carpeting isnt the kind that looks like grass. Its like a carpet that has ridges in it. I dont think the tort would even be able to eat it because it is too short and too tough. I want to use moss but the guy at the store said it isnt the best option. 

I just need advice on his living space...Its confusing to have all these contradiction around me >_<

Oh and the kind of heating system I plan on using is a combination of UVB and heat lamp. Many websites suggested that. What do you guys use?


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## Itort (Jun 1, 2009)

I use a ceremic heat emitter and no UVB as they are rainforest type tortoise and live in a low light enviornment recieving D3 from the animal portion of the diet. Checkout www.redfoots.com


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## jlyoncc1 (Jun 1, 2009)

You really need to check out www.redfoots.com like everyone has said. Terry has gorgeous redfoots and he has been doing this for a loooonnnggg time and knows what he is doing. His hatchlings say it all. He has an excellent diet plan and set ups on the site. I would follow his direction in order to have success!


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## Crazy1 (Jun 1, 2009)

I have to agree with jlyoncc1 (Dee) Terry on http://www.redfoots.com not only has hatchlings that are beautiful he has been doing this for a long time. His adults which he has pics (proof) of he has raised from hatchlings and look as good as any Redfoot I have ever seen. No pyramiding and they look happy and healthy. Please if you want to end the confusion and contradictions that are out there stick to TerryÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s plan, it works. 

I too had all the doubts that you are facing when I got a small sick RF. I went to http://www.redfoots.com and followed his plan and was able to turn around a little 5 year old female that could not even walk. Now she is healthy walking and growing smoothly. I highly recommend if you want success with your hatchling follow his plan and enclosure info. Any questions you can always contact Terry. I know this sounds like a testimonial but I was so blown away with his recommended and proven care, that it is hard not to be enthusiastic. He states the proof are in the pics and it is true He has parents of parents and has made all the mistakes for you so you donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t have to His plan is simple to follow and produces results you canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t ignore.


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## HermanRedFoot (Jun 1, 2009)

I have made up a diet plan set up and everything from redfoots.com. I have been going to that site. But I didnt want to just limit myself to only one site. I have been asking people plus researching sites. I didnt come here to find out which was the best site to go to but I guess I found it. From the beginning of my research, Ive noticed that redfoots.com seemed like a good one.

Ive decided to use a tank for my set up, despite what redfoots.com says. For the substrate, what will be the best type I could buy. I dont want my hatchling to attempt to eat it which may cause intestional abstruction. 

I stated in my previous posts that there are all these websites contradict eachother....and thats why I came here. I was looking for your personal opinons on enclosers, not good sites. But by the sounds of it, this site doesnt sound to friendly towards new comers. But anyways, Im not looking for other great websites, Im just looking for your personal opinons on the decorating of my 20 gallon tank.


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## jlyoncc1 (Jun 1, 2009)

I am sorry but I feel the need to disagree. We are super friendly to newcomers and always willing to help. It is just that for many of us that do have redfoots have followed Terry's website information with success and were just trying to give you the same opportunity. Also, Robyn suggested that you check out terryo's thread on Pio's enclosure. Her enclosure is beautiful showing many different types of plants, etc. Many people use sphagnum moss for hatchlings as it holds the moisture. Hope you will reconsider the "friendliness" of this forum! We all want the best for everyone's tort babies! : )


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## HermanRedFoot (Jun 1, 2009)

Well being that I am a newcomer, I did not really feel welcomed. Only by Candy and Itort basically did feel welcomed and had an inquiry answered. 

About the sphagnum moss though! Do you need to wet it? How often do you replace the moss? Is it a everyday kinda thing? Or once a week? Also, how do you clean out the area where the tort went to the bathroom?

Sorry if theses questions seem kinda obvious! I just want to be 100% sure before I consider anything!


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## jlyoncc1 (Jun 1, 2009)

I am sure someone else will chime in, but I would think you would want to spray with a water bottle each day to keep it moist. I wouldn't think it would have to be replaced too often and I would just use a napkin to clean up hatchling mess (they are not very big). I don't have a redfoot, but would like one some day so I do read about them, but my knowledge is limited. I am sure you will hear from the experts.


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## HermanRedFoot (Jun 1, 2009)

Well apparently they eat their own droppings but ideally they shouldnt....But I obvioiusly cant be there 24/7 to monitor when the tort takes a poo. Do red foots smell at all? Apparently some say they do..But I find it unlikely if you take care of them.


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## Crazy1 (Jun 1, 2009)

Hi Samantha, sorry I got off on the wrong foot with you. It was not my intent to make you feel anything but welcomed. Sometimes we answer the same or similar questions so frequently we forget, or I forget, that I could be talking to a knowledgeable adult. Who has done research and only wants her direct questions answered. 

Yes all torts have an odor; no I do not think they smell bad. In fact I like the smell of the damp moss. And no they don't stink if you keep their poo picked up and their water clean. And these are very good questions. 

I pick up poo as soon as I see it. I keep the moss moist but not soggy. I pure a glass of water into it about weekly and mix it up good so it is damp throughout. Then I spritz tort and moss at meal time. I only change the moss about every 6 months. Sphagnum moss does not mold. If it starts to smell old (and you will know when you smell it) then you know it is time to change.

Just for added information; hatchlings in the wild will eat poo to gain needed gut flora. Sort of on the same lines as a baby drinking mothers milk they gain needed antibodies. Torts will also eat their own poo if they need the added nutrients. They are their own recycling bins sort of, especially if their diets are not optimum. Ideally you don't want anything eating its own or anyone elseÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s poo but many animals do this. It is not an uncommon practice.

I have tried what they call tortoise carpet, kind of an indoor outdoor carpet, but made especially for torts so they can't eat it. It is very difficult with redfoots as it does not hold dampness without the entire carpet being damp and keeping your tort on something wet. With the moss the top layer drys out so it has time on a dry area so their is no shell rot issues. With the carpet you don't have that option.

I truly hope this helps.


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## Candy (Jun 1, 2009)

Robyn I really enjoyed your post especially the first part.  I've got to admit you give very good information here. I myself have never heard of carpet for tortoises. It just doesn't sound good to me. I don't think they have carpet were they come from. They do (I should think) have moss in the rainforest. Anyway I got a lot from your post thanks.


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## HermanRedFoot (Jun 1, 2009)

Sweet thanks for the awesome, straightfoward reply!!! I really appreciate it. So you just recommend getting moss and wetting it everyday (Im guess the moss is suppose to be damp to the point where if I squeeze the moss, no water is suppose to come out?)

Im thinking about just taking the carpet out. I only spent 6$ on 3 sheets so its not a big loss. Now, what should I do about the fake plants? Im kind of worried about if my tort decides to nibble on it and it contains toxins.

Also, do torts like basking on rocks or no? I want to make the environment for my tort to be as fun as possible for it. I dont want his environment to be a lonely one


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## tortoisenerd (Jun 1, 2009)

Hi again! Sorry if I didn't sound welcoming. Hopefully you give us a second chance here. 

Moss is great for Redfoots. 

I have not had a problem with fake plants, nor have I ever heard of anyone else having a problem. Torts usually try to nibble at anything, but then realize it's not food. If they do end up thinking it is food, then you take it out. I recommend buying them from a craft store, or only from the pet store or online if they are on sale--no need to spend a lot of money. There should not be toxins, and it should be very difficult for them to even be able to break a piece off. Just place the tort in front of the plant and you should almost immediately see them check it out (if they don't go hide from it!).

From what I know most Redfoots do not bask. Most people say to ditch the UVB as they get D3 from their natural diet, and only use a heat emitter, and just a little bit of light if necessary based on the room lighting, windows, live plants, etc. So, you likely don't need a basking area. You will however want some areas of the enclosure different temperatures than others to create a gradient. Tiles and rocks do make good additions to the enclosure such to feed on or for the tort to climb, and also wear down nails naturally. 

The reason I posted redfoots.com (and I can't speak for anyone else) is because literally I would have copied and pasted the advice. Everyone here is unanimously decided that is the best, and I honestly haven't heard anything to the contrary on this site at all. I don't have anything else to add on the subject on Redfoots besides what is from that site, and what can carry over from my own limited tort experience.

Yes, the carpet is rather safe from ingestion (the edges can actually still be dangerous). No, it doesn't simulate a natural habitat, doesn't allow digging, and especially cannot retain the necessary humidity for good health and especially preventing pyramiding. I would be very interested to see the pet store's older torts, and if they were pyramided. I have yet to hear of a pet store giving advice on the same line that we give here (most of it is contradicting).

Yes, you will always have contradicting information on tort care. Some of us like to pick one source (like this site), and only go off of what is posted here, or linked from here. This has not steered me wrong yet. I find what I think are errors all the time online. Some sites even may post something as safe that could be poisonous, etc. Substrates, humidity, diet, etc, are all very hot topics.

Disclaimer: I don't own a Redfoot, but tort research is my main hobby and I absorb a lot of info from everyone else here, so I chime in where I cam, and keep my mouth shut where I should. My little tort is my baby and I care almost too much about him!

Best wishes. I really hope you don't have any hard feelings about any of us. We are all VERY passionate here. I myself have read far too many stories of sick and dead hatchlings, and my heart can't take it to read about anymore. I am glad that you seem well-educated and level headed about this choice. I think you come to the right group. Welcome!  Please give us feedback as to how we can be more welcoming to newcomers. Specific examples especially.


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## HermanRedFoot (Jun 1, 2009)

Do you guys recommend any real plants? Or should I just stick to fake ones? 

Also, how much of the moss should I put in at a time. I havent really looked for moss in stores so I dont know what it comes in or how much you can get at a time. I understand torts like to dig, I was just wondering how much would need to be used in order for the tort to have a good time digging in it 

Once again, sorry if these are obvious questions. I just want to make sure. I dont want to hurt any animal because of my stupidity and lack of knowledge.

I actually feel very much welcomed now. Sorry if I came off being a bit too harash. I was just very fusturated with all the contradictions I have been getting for the past month! And as for the feeback to be more welcoming to newcomers, Just keep doing what you are doing now!!!! Answer the newcomers question(s) to the point and possibly suggest going to redfoots.com, rather than being like "Just got to redfoots.com". I feel very welcomed now! Thanks a bunch!


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## Crazy1 (Jun 2, 2009)

Samantha, Real plants, hum, Pio's habitat was planted with real plants and it is beautiful. I personally have not used real plants, my torts tend to tip them over and eat them. But I will give you a link to Pio's thread again. Terry has had good sucess with plants in Pio's enclosure.
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-7011.html?highlight=pio post #5 Also please note that the varigated vine (plant) in Pio's enclosure is a pothos and is said to be toxic to torts. I personally would omit the pothos. 

The sphargnum moss (Mosser Lee brand) comes in a small bag. You can get it at Home Depot or Lowes it is much cheaper than a pet store. You'll want to place the moss in a bucket and soak it in water for about 10 minutes. Then squeeze the water out of it and place it in the tank.
One bag will have more than enough for your tank. I would place enough to cover your tort plus a bit more.


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## HermanRedFoot (Jun 2, 2009)

Alright! Thanks! You guys really helped me out a bunch! But you guys havent heard the end of me >


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## Crazy1 (Jun 2, 2009)

Good


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## HermanRedFoot (Jun 5, 2009)

Hey! So I just came back from Lowes and I bought Premier Peat Moss. It is Sphagnum moss but I was just wondering if there would be a difference between the one I bought and the one you recommened (Mosser Lee brand).

Is the Sphagnum moss suppose to be fine? Or is it suppose to be thick?


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## Crazy1 (Jun 5, 2009)

HermanRedFoot said:


> Hey! So I just came back from Lowes and I bought Premier Peat Moss. It is Sphagnum moss but I was just wondering if there would be a difference between the one I bought and the one you recommened (Mosser Lee brand).
> 
> Is the Sphagnum moss suppose to be fine? Or is it suppose to be thick?



If the Premier Peat Moss has vermiculite in it you do not want it. Vermiculite or Perlite can cause impactions. The Mosser Lee Sphagnum moss is a long strand moss. I know it does not mold or mildew. I do not know about the Premier peat moss. Is this the moss you bought? http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/Premier-Peat-Moss/productinfo/SO-PM-MOSS/ My only concern would be if it is so fine you may want to watch your tort (especially hatchling) for wear on the back legs as it may be harder for him to walk on a fine shred moss. Hopefully someone who has used the Peat Moss will chime in. I never have.


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## HermanRedFoot (Jun 5, 2009)

Yeah thats the stuff I got! Dang! Guess I will be returning that! Lol

I didnt see the other brand of moss you suggested though (Moss Lee Brand). Is it even avaiable in Canada?


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## Crazy1 (Jun 6, 2009)

Here is one place that carries it in brick packs and fresh http://www.justmosscanada.ca/products.html


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## HermanRedFoot (Jun 6, 2009)

I kinda didnt want to buy the moss online due to the fact that I want it to be easily acessable for me and my tort  My dad went down to Home Depot today and he came back with this product.

http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/...Ntx=mode+matchall&recN=0&N=0&Ntk=P_PartNumber

It comes in like 4 bricks. Hopefully this stuff will do the trick. If not, I will have alot of moss stored in my garage lol!! 

PS- I appreciate everyones help!  Means alot


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## tortoisenerd (Jun 6, 2009)

Best of luck with the substrate!


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## Meg90 (Jun 10, 2009)

Those bricks are coconut coir....the exact same thing as bed a beast!  You even use it the same way....expanded in water! I would say, for moss, just head over to the local petco or petsmart and pick up some of their dry moss. (you soak it in warm water to rehydrate) because it is safe for reptiles.

The stuff you have now isn't moss....also, I don't know if you are going to mix any sand into it? But I would maybe do a 70/30 mix (30=sand) to help it be a little more stable (traction wise---this stuff is pretty light) and retain moisture. Coir can dry pretty quickly.

Looking forward to enclosure pics! Got any updates?


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## Black_Zanjay (Jan 3, 2010)

You make a similar fashion from adults because you think the process of decoration. It seemed to be doing fine, but it started having a hard time moving around - come to find out his little. Then it could be needing a more time for your tort.



_________________


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## Yvonne G (Jan 3, 2010)

Black_Zanjay said:


> You make a similar fashion from adults because you think the process of decoration. It seemed to be doing fine, but it started having a hard time moving around - come to find out his little. Then it could be needing a more time for your tort.
> 
> 
> 
> _________________



This had to have been a computer program. Even a non-English speaking person using a translator program would have made a better post than this one. But I banned him because he had a spam link in his signature, not because of his poor English. Just saying...


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