# Testudinidae Domesticus Project



## Balboa (Nov 28, 2010)

This is a crazy idea that has been bouncing around in my head for some time.

Many keepers breed tortoises in hopes to offset the the capture of wild specimens to feed the appetite of the pet trade. This is a noble venture and I applaud their efforts, as it also serves to ensure the survival of these species which are often threatened in their native lands.

What if a single species could be bred in large enough quantities and adapted to survive in an environment easily created in a typical American home. This could all but eliminate the thousands of lost tortoise lives from first importation and then inadequate care once they reach their final destination in a home.

Obviously there will always be advanced keepers who enjoy the challenge of meeting the needs of an exotic tortoise. For the average joe however, those exotic needs are normally beyond their means and understanding.

In my mind the ideal domestic tortoise needs ;

Room Temperature: Around 70 degrees average Fahrenheit
Low Humidity: Typically 30-40 
Small Size: maybe 6" at most full grown
Non-Picky Diet: ideally could thrive on Mazuri or ZooMed Grassland with occasional produce thrown in. (In reality this seems standard, but long term for many species this seems inadequate)
Non-Hibernating/Aestivating: This may be the trickiest of all, and I see alot of debate possible on this single issue. Many people are proposing that these seasonal cycles are crucial to tortoise keeping. Just how critical is this really, as it is NOT something I expect the average pet owner to be able to safely accommodate.
Hardy: Really tough part, so many possible species are considered "tricky" to keep.

Do any existant species fit that bill? If not what comes closest?
Egyptians seem so perfect in so many regards, yet are rare and "tricky" to keep.

Big nono to many folks, but I'm not even beyond the idea of hybridizing to create a suitable tortoise. I know many folks are strongly opposed to hybrids, but in the context of trying to bring about a possibly new "species" or breed to suit the market and save all other species I consider it a worthy notion. Hybrids can typically be stronger, benefiting from the combined and possibly limited gene pools of the parent species. Even in already domesticated animal species, out-crossing of purebreeds is necessary at times to over come the negatives of intense in-breeding.

If an ideal stock to work from could be decided upon, I would like to propose a breeding program to further the process and reinforce those positive traits that could allow a species to thrive in an American (or any other temperate for that matter) home. I realize this is a long pipe dream, and could likely not even be fully realized in my life time, but might not be a bad life-project for me.

Thanks in advance, and please cast your votes and ideas for the best stock for Testudinidae Domesticus.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Nov 28, 2010)

A "_*Chihuahua Sulcata*_"...basically, a sulcata that never gets bigger than a cantaloupe...how cool might that be?

Barring that, an Eastern Hermann's is about as good as it gets...pretty much what you've described in your list of attributes, really.


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## jackrat (Nov 28, 2010)

You would probably have a hard time changing traits that have been established for millions of years.Not like the domestic dog breeds,which have been around for only a relativly short time.A great idea for sure,but i don't think it's do-able.


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## Balboa (Nov 28, 2010)

LOL I like the chihuahua sulcata Terry, actually a mini leopard crossed my mind as well. I'm not sure how tough it would be to breed for small size, how many generations does that take? Obviously that's the great problem with domesticating a tortoise, large generation gaps, which kind of ties into what Jack was saying, at least in-so-far as the not doable part LOL.

Domesticating any wild animal takes time, 100's if not thousands of years for full domestication, but hey gotta start somewhere.

Hermannis are one of the species I've been looking at. Really any of the Testudos fit the care parameters. I'm guessing the only real reason they don't already fill the market niche must be appearance. Just too plain jane, so maybe a program to make them flashier looking? Or is it that they lack personality? And which one in particular, is the Hermanni the best?

That factor made me look at Tents or Speckled Padlopers, but whoa, talk about rare, and apparently once again not too easy to care for.

I was hoping for more of duke-out over which species is best, come on folks, fight for your favs


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## Madkins007 (Nov 28, 2010)

LOL! I've thought about the idea of starting a foundation to take some land in the middle of Nebraska and just dumping as many Russians and such out there as I could get and let natural selection run its course. I figure if I had a couple big enough colonies and a group to monitor it for a few decades, I might have a strain that would be 'Nebraska Tolerant'.

Breeding a new strain would be fun, but we have enough trouble breeding things like snakes for color consistently.


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## Maggie Cummings (Nov 28, 2010)

This is Queenie and she is not by any means a "plain Jane" look at how flashy she is. Her carapace color would look brighter but it's against the whiteness of the snow so it doesn't look very bright. She is full grown and very small. maybe 5 inches. She's half T.h.boettgeri and half T.h.hermanni. She has a great personality and is very active and inquisitive and would make a great specimen for your breeding stock...


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## onarock (Nov 28, 2010)

maggie3fan said:


> This is Queenie and she is not by any means a "plain Jane" look at how flashy she is. Her carapace color would look brighter but it's against the whiteness of the snow so it doesn't look very bright. She is full grown and very small. maybe 5 inches. She's half Hermanni and half something else that I have forgotten right now. She has a great personality and is very active and inquisitive and would make a great specimen for your breeding stock...



she is so plain, I cant see her


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## Terry Allan Hall (Nov 29, 2010)

Balboa said:


> LOL I like the chihuahua sulcata Terry, actually a mini leopard crossed my mind as well. I'm not sure how tough it would be to breed for small size, how many generations does that take? Obviously that's the great problem with domesticating a tortoise, large generation gaps, which kind of ties into what Jack was saying, at least in-so-far as the not doable part LOL.
> 
> *I'd guess we'd want to start training our grandkids early, to train their geandkids early, to train their grandkids early about the wonderfulness of this project and tortoises in general... *
> 
> ...



*Hermann's are the obvious choice for the discerning torto-phile! *



Madkins007 said:


> LOL! I've thought about the idea of starting a foundation to take some land in the middle of Nebraska and just dumping as many Russians and such out there as I could get and let natural selection run its course. I figure if I had a couple big enough colonies and a group to monitor it for a few decades, I might have a strain that would be 'Nebraska Tolerant'.
> 
> Breeding a new strain would be fun, but we have enough trouble breeding things like snakes for color consistently.



*I've lomg considered that Russians would easily colonize Texas and other Westernj states, as they originate in some of the least habitable real eatate on Earth!*



maggie3fan said:


> This is Queenie and she is not by any means a "plain Jane" look at how flashy she is. Her carapace color would look brighter but it's against the whiteness of the snow so it doesn't look very bright. She is full grown and very small. maybe 5 inches. She's half T.h.boettgeri and half T.h.hermanni. She has a great personality and is very active and inquisitive and would make a great specimen for your breeding stock...



*Queenie is quite beautiful! Should ever need to rehome her, I'd love to add her to my Hermann's breeding project's gene-pool!*


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## Edna (Nov 29, 2010)

Balboa said:


> Hermannis are one of the species I've been looking at. Really any of the Testudos fit the care parameters. I'm guessing the only real reason they don't already fill the market niche must be appearance. *Just too plain jane, so maybe a program to make them flashier looking?** Or is it that they lack personality?* And which one in particular, is the Hermanni the best?



Hold on there, Balboa! My adrenaline jumped for just a moment there when I read the bolded portions of your post. Torty is still sleeping, so he doesn't know yet about your inflamatory suggestion that he LACKS PERSONALITY. On his behalf, I challenge you to work with Hermanns for your domestication project. We believe the species is perfect as is, and the only thing needed is a serious marketing campaign. Oh, and Torty volunteers his services as a stud tortoise, all in the interest of the domestication project, of course. He's such an altruistic little guy![/color][/color]


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## GBtortoises (Nov 29, 2010)

This general idea was already taken on by a fellow Tortoise Forum member about two years ago in the Midwestern U.S. I will not mention his name here. If he wants to do so he can. He began several test colonies of Russian tortoises in different set ups with the intent to mass breed them to furnish the pet trade. His (and my) hope was to eventually greatly reduce and possibly eliminate the need for mass collection of wild caught Russian tortoises. Between the two of us we came up with several different potential methods to keep, breed and maintain the adults in large numbers in a healthy environment. The result would be several offspring that were also raised in healthy conditions and offered for sale to the pet trade.

The bottom line is simply that it is not feasible, especially economically. With all aspects considered the adult tortoises would cost too much to maintain year round. The offspring would have to be raised and maintained to reach 4" in size to meet federal law requirements to enter the pet trade. They could be raised rapidly by increasing heat and diet but this will also result in accelerated growth being evident and potential pyramiding and health issues. So in our minds it couldn't be done in good conscientious. 

As far as hybrids go-most people don't want them. The majority of people are attracted to a certain species because of the traits of that species. In most cases a hybrid tortoise displays characteristics of both it's parents. In this case it would be parents from different species or subspecies. For many people that would eliminate the attraction to any one species. Many people like Marginateds and Greek Ibera. Very few people care for hybrid offspring of the two. Generally speaking-people prefer purity. A good example of that is how expensive and popular specific races of dogs are compared to free "mutts". 

I still believe that the main way to reduce mass collection of wild caught tortoises is for individuals to continue to breed tortoises in captivity through generations. By doing this it reduces the number of tortoises collected and keeps the species true to their characteristics.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Nov 29, 2010)

GBtortoises said:


> This general idea was already taken on by a fellow Tortoise Forum member about two years ago in the Midwestern U.S. I will not mention his name here. If he wants to do so he can. He began several test colonies of Russian tortoises in different set ups with the intent to mass breed them to furnish the pet trade. His (and my) hope was to eventually greatly reduce and possibly eliminate the need for mass collection of wild caught Russian tortoises. Between the two of us we came up with several different potential methods to keep, breed and maintain the adults in large numbers in a healthy environment. The result would be several offspring that were also raised in healthy conditions and offered for sale to the pet trade.
> 
> The bottom line is simply that it is not feasible, especially economically. With all aspects considered the adult tortoises would cost too much to maintain year round. The offspring would have to be raised and maintained to reach 4" in size to meet federal law requirements to enter the pet trade. They could be raised rapidly by increasing heat and diet but this will also result in accelerated growth being evident and potential pyramiding and health issues. So in our minds it couldn't be done in good conscientious.
> 
> ...


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## GBtortoises (Nov 29, 2010)

Terry-I was thinking of true mutts-the ones that unfortunately end up in shelters because they're unwanted, a.k.a-not sellable because they aren't a "pure bred" or "designer dogs". For example a Maltese/Cockapoo cross is a desirable designer dog. A Rottweiler/Sheep Dog probably is not! Those are the type of dogs that end up in shelter kennels, at least around here where I live. We personally own two "mutts" and two purebreds. Other than looks, can't tell a bit of difference between them, except that I'm convinced the mutts are smarter! To me a dog is a dog is a dog, they're all awesome!


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## Maggie Cummings (Nov 29, 2010)

She is definitely more beautiful than this picture shows, BUT I got her with the promise that because she is a hybrid I would never allow her to be bred...I was just teasing ya'll with the picture, I will keep her always and she won't ever be bred...


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## Terry Allan Hall (Nov 29, 2010)

maggie3fan said:


> She is definitely more beautiful than this picture shows, BUT I got her with the promise that because she is a hybrid I would never allow her to be bred...I was just teasing ya'll with the picture, I will keep her always and she won't ever be bred...



Well, if things ever change, there'll always be a home for her at *Rancho Testudo*. 



GBtortoises said:


> Terry-I was thinking of true mutts-the ones that unfortunately end up in shelters because they're unwanted, a.k.a-not sellable because they aren't a "pure bred" or "designer dogs".
> 
> *As opposed to the once fabulously popular Peruvian Hamster Hound (when discussing the breed, when I'm asked about why the other party has never heard of a Peruvian Hamster Hound, I patiently explain that Peruvian Hamsters were hunted into extinction on September 17th, 1836, at 4:19pm, and the Peruvian Hamster vHound is too much of a wuss to hunt anything larger/tougher, so the breed is sadly dying out... ).*
> 
> ...



*Agreed that mutts are often very smart dogs. *


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## Balboa (Nov 29, 2010)

maggie3fan said:


> She is definitely more beautiful than this picture shows, BUT I got her with the promise that because she is a hybrid I would never allow her to be bred...I was just teasing ya'll with the picture, I will keep her always and she won't ever be bred...



That is a mean tease Maggie 

For whatever reason, she really is one of the prettiest Hermanni I've ever seen!

Glad I riled up some of the passion I did and was looking to do 

I agree Hermanni can be very pretty, especially the h.h.
Unfortunately they lack the flash of something like a young redfoot, of course we know as they age the redfoots get less flashy, but we're talking about shelf appeal to the mindless massess. That's where the hybrid idea comes in. 

Yes, tortoise fanciers are into the "pure" breeds. My guess is the average joe could care less, as long as its purty. Just look at the abominations that can be found in the pet fish trade.

I'd be very interested in hearing more about the venture you were looking into GB, I'm not surprised other folks have had similar ideas. It seems readily apparent to me that this is not likely to be a profitable venture, I'm not really concerned about that, and I'm not going to be able to supply the trade in my lifetime. Just something I'm thinking about trying to get the ball rolling on.

So Hermanni uber alles? Come on Greek lovers, fight for yours! 

and oh yah, 
Nothing but Mutt dogs for me.


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## Greg Knoell (Dec 2, 2010)

*All kidding aside, a good Rott/Sheepdog mix puppy sells for about $150 around here, where many ranchers keep Nubian and/or Boer goats. Rotts were originally bred to be a herding dog in Germany, and work with herd animals (cattle, sheep, goats) instictively, as will sheepdogs.*

Those are the type of dogs that end up in shelter kennels, at least around here where I live. We personally own two "mutts" and two purebreds. Other than looks, can't tell a bit of difference between them, except that I'm convinced the mutts are smarter! To me a dog is a dog is a dog, they're all awesome!
[/quote]

*Agreed that mutts are often very smart dogs. *

[/quote]

(Dog) Mutts are often healthier too, they have less risk for genetic diseases that can quickly become expressed from inbreeding. I would think selective captive breeding of tortoises with the effort to change a species hardiness traits would take at least dozens of generations, even if inbreeding is implemented.


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## GBtortoises (Dec 2, 2010)

"I would think selective captive breeding of tortoises with the effort to change a species hardiness traits would take at least dozens of generations, even if inbreeding is implemented."

In my opinion the above statement simply explains why large scale tortoise breeding probably will never be feasible. Assuming that the breeder wants to produce quality, healthy, cosmetically correct looking animals. Tortoises simply take too much time to grow from hatchling to mature breeding size adult and still get there without a gross and undesirable appearance. In most cases you're looking at nearly a decade to produce each generation. 

I'm still very much in favor hundreds (or thousands) of small scale breeders each concentrating on a specific species or a couple of species. I think this method produces better quality offspring that remain more true to their species characteristics. I can't think of a single breeder that I currently know that is not very passionate about the species that he or she is working with, very concerned about producing quality offspring, very knowledgeable about the species and all aspects of their care and very willing to help new keepers get started and are willing to share their expertise with anyone that is interested.

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## egyptiandan (Dec 2, 2010)

Even if you could do everything else.  The first requirement would bite you in the bum.  There is no way to breed a tortoise that would be able to survive at room temperatures without supplemental heat. So your first requirement kills the project before you've even started. 

Danny


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## Balboa (Dec 2, 2010)

Ahhh I didn't specify no supplemental heat Danny.

As my understanding of the care related to most greeks/hermans etc goes from caresheets I've read they are perfectly fine with an ambient temperature close to room temperature for many households (75 or so off the top of my head)?

If those care sheets are incorrect please do fill me in.

The caresheets simply specify that a basking spot is needed.

What does the "tortoiseman" website say as I recall... if its too warm for you its too warm for your greek... something like that.

I should add that that was simply a mental note I'd made at some point in researching further species, AFTER we rescued the redfoots. Part of the problem with the care of redfoots is maintaining a temperature for them that is beyond the normal human comfort level (especially when coupled with high humidity).

I was thinking "Greeks don't need 80 degrees, 80 humidity? that's a way more practical species, why aren't the stores selling these instead of redfoots"


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## egyptiandan (Dec 2, 2010)

Than requirement #1 was a bit misleading  Well all _Testudo_ can deal with 70F for a cool end temperature no problem. Actually most tortoises can take 75F for a cool end temperature. When you have a basking spot on one end of the enclosure than that end will be warmer than the 70F in the cool end.
The reason petstores aren't selling Greeks is that no Greeks are coming in the country and plenty of 4 inch Redfoot are coming into the country. It's all in whats for sale out there at the wholesale level as to what petshops will carry. The most common tortoises at petshops now are Russians and Redfoots, the 2 tortoise species that are imported in the highest numbers right now.

Danny


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## Balboa (Dec 2, 2010)

Fine, Fine, I'll give you that Danny. Usually I'm too specific, and you go and catch me over generalizing


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