# SeaWorld prepares to put trainers back in water with killer whales



## Kalina

SeaWorld Parks & Entertainment is preparing to put trainers back in the water with its killer whales for the first time since a trainer was battered and drowned by the company's largest orca one year ago today.

SeaWorld told the Orlando Sentinel on Wednesday that trainers in its three U.S. marine parks will begin limited "water work" with whales within the next few months, with the interactions initially restricted to small medical pools equipped with false-bottom floors that can be lifted out of the water.

The company said it also will spend tens of millions of dollars in coming months on safety upgrades at its killer-whale facilities in Orlando, San Diego and San Antonio â€” from custom-designed, fast-rising pool floors in its larger show venues to underwater vehicles that could be used to distract an out-of-control killer whale with pulsing lights and whale vocalizations.

Company officials said they intend to proceed slowly and have not decided when â€” or even ifâ€” trainers might once again go back into the water with killer whales during public shows. SeaWorld trainers have not been permitted in the water with the whales since veteran SeaWorld Orlando trainer Dawn Brancheau was killed by a 6-ton orca named Tilikum on Feb. 24, 2010.
"We've never been in a situation where we've been out of the water a year with our whales. I would like to be able to tell you that I think our whales are going to be very comfortable doing this," Chuck Tompkins, corporate curator of zoological operations for SeaWorld Parks, said Wednesday. "But that's the reason we're taking our time. We're taking nothing for granted."

SeaWorld must strike a delicate balance as it moves forward. The company is battling federal regulators who have accused it of recklessly placing trainers in danger, and it faces a potential wrongful-death lawsuit from Brancheau's widowed husband. But it also wants to eventually resume the iconic, in-water performances that have helped build SeaWorld Parks into a $1.2 billion-a-year theme-park giant and are also, officials say, an important part of building relationships between whales and trainers.

"We do feel that that's the best way to not only showcase those animals but to care for the animals, as well," said Julie Scardina, also a corporate curator of zoological operations for SeaWorld Parks. "It's something that we've been successful doing throughout our history. We know it inspires people, and we know that it allows us the best access to the whales, as well."

Preparations to return to water work are already well under way. Trainers, for instance, have in recent weeks been going through seminars on topics such as whale aggression.

The killer whales themselves, meanwhile, are gradually being re-trained through a process SeaWorld calls "water desensitization training." The whales are taught to swim around the perimeters of their pools while ignoring progressively greater distractions â€” from unusual objects to noises being made in a neighboring tank.

That training will soon progress to desensitizing the animals to the presence of a trainer in the water. Tompkins said that will happen "within the next couple of months," though only in the medical pools.

"Water 'desense' is a very methodical process," Tompkins said. "You don't immediately jump in the water and go, 'What are you going to do with me?' You literally go to the other side of the pool and you put your foot in the water and you make sure the whale doesn't pay attention to the fact that there's a foot in the water."

SeaWorld said it has not decided when training might progress beyond the medical pools. The company says its timetable is not dependent on its ongoing legal battle with the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration; hearings before an administrative law judge are scheduled to begin April 25.

SeaWorld said it eventually plans to put all of its killer whales through the desensitization training save one â€” Tilikum, the large whale that killed Brancheau. The adult male is considered especially dangerous because he has been involved in three deaths over 20 years and is by far the biggest orca in SeaWorld's collection.

Tilikum, whom Tompkins said had been put through "some very basic sessions of water desense" before Brancheau's death, will undergo some further limited work. But trainers will not get into the water with him at all, even in the medical pool.

Trainers have, however, begun working with Tilikum on behaviors to be used in a new killer-whale show that will debut in SeaWorld's marine parks this spring. That show, at least for the foreseeable future, will be conducted entirely by trainers working from the stage. SeaWorld has kept Tilikum out of performances since Brancheau's death.

Even as it moves forward with water work, SeaWorld said it is in the midst of making sweeping safety improvements at its orca complexes. The most ambitious project: Rising pool floors that can lift killer whales out of the water in perhaps less than a minute's time.

SeaWorld said it has designed the new floors in conjunction with Oceaneering International Inc., a Houston-based deep-sea engineering company that works primarily with offshore oil- and gas-drilling companies. The floors are designed to rise much faster than the cabled lift stations in SeaWorld's medical pools, which take approximately 60 seconds to rise from 8-foot-deep water.

"Upon initiation, it would immediately release and rise to the surface, lifting multiple killer whales, and then obviously could support multiple individuals," said John Linn, SeaWorld Parks' senior director of engineering services.

Linn said the first floor will be installed by June in the 28-foot-deep "Dine with Shamu" pool in Orlando â€” the same pool that Brancheau was in when she was killed. Once SeaWorld has tested the mechanism and ironed out any kinks, it intends to install similar floors in all of the company's orca pools, including the largest performance pools, which are nearly 40 foot deep.

Although SeaWorld would not discuss specific costs, it said it expects to spend "tens of millions" of dollars installing the floors â€” putting the project's price tag at least on par with, and potentially more expensive than, a major new theme-park ride.

SeaWorld said it has also worked with Oceaneering to develop what is essentially a remote-controlled underwater vehicle that could be deployed to distract a whale in an emergency. The device, which SeaWorld will begin testing in about a month, will be able to swim patterns, float to the surface, flash with a strobe light, vibrate and emit sounds, including, potentially, whale vocalizations.

In addition, SeaWorld said it intends to eventually outfit its trainers with emergency air supplies, initially designed for the U.S. military, that will feature automated breathing regulators and provide two-to-five minutes of air for a trainer trapped under water. And the company says designers are researching rapidly expanding mechanisms that trainers could use in an attempt to quickly pry open a whale's jaws in an emergency.

SeaWorld said it has also overhauled oversight of its animal-training department by assigning both Tompkins and Scardina to focus solely on training in its 10 theme parks and water parks. The company eliminated a similar corporate-level training position several years ago, opting instead to fold responsibility for animal training in with the rest of its zoological disciplines.

Those changes are on top of other safety improvements SeaWorld has made in recent months, including installing removable guardrails around stage ledges and "net boxes" that can more more quickly deploy in an emergency.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-seaworld-trainers-water-20110223,0,1956999.story


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## ChiKat

Another great idea from SeaWorld...


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## Candy

Kalina I can't believe it. I came on here today to update my Sea World thread with this news and here you already posted it. Now my comment is......HOW MANY TRAINERS HAVE TO DIE BEFORE SEA WORLD GETS IT? Do people really believe this is a good idea for Sea World to do? Boycott them please and these animals can live in the free ocean where they belong and you can go there to see them if you'd like. I actually have a website that sends me updates everyday with pictures and audio of the whales. It's much better to learn about them this way and to see how they actually live from day to day in the wild.


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## Kalina

One year after the horrific death of a SeaWorld trainer, the popular Orlando, Fla. theme park is getting set to launch a new killer whale show with revamped safety measures.

But critics say there isn't enough being done to prevent another tragedy.

CBS News correspondent Whit Johnson reports the park announced it plans to allow trainers back in the water - something that hasn't happened since the attack on Dawn Brancheau last year.

Brancheau, a 40-year-old trainer, was attacked and drowned by a 12-ton killer whale named Tillikum. Tillikum is still at SeaWorld, but is kept at a safe distance from the public and the trainers.

Since Brancheau's death, trainers have been subject to a new set of rules. Johnson reported the days are over of high flying "rocket hops," in which trainers are propelled into the sky by the whale. In fact, even though they'll be going back in the water, it will only be during training sessions. Workers will also have access to safety bars, and pony tails must be wrapped into a tight bun.

Chuck Tompkins, corporate curator of SeaWorld, said, "We've always said that we're gonna work to try and get back in the water. We're not there yet."

No date has been set for in-water training, but critics the safety precautions still ignore the heart of the problem.

John Jett, a former SeaWorld trainer, told CBS News, "They're certainly masking the issue that the whales are really bored. You deprive them of all the social stimulation, environmental stimulation and expect him to do well. You know, it seems to me to be a recipe for disaster."

In April, Johnson said, SeaWorld plans to fight a number of safety violations that could keep killer whale trainers out of the water for good.

SeaWorld and Brancheau's family, Johnson reported, are teaming up to create a foundation in her memory.

Dr. Jeffrey Ventre, who spent four years as a trainer with SeaWorld's killer whales and knew Brancheau, said this is a "predictable response" from the company.

"This is a multibillion dollar corporation that makes its money through the exploitation of orcas and trainers," he said on "The Early Show." "Trainers are grossly underpaid. And as Dr. Jett just mentioned in the previous segment, these animals are highly understimulated. Tillikum chose to pull Dawn into the water by her left arm, and it got ugly after that. So this is a predictable response. But I think the key point in history is going to start on April 25, when OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) takes a close look at the safety issues associated with swimming in the water with killer whales, and I think that's going to determine whether this will actually happen or not."

Co-anchor Chris Wragge noted Ventre is a key witness in government hearings about SeaWorld. What does he plan to say about the industry?

Ventre explained, "Well, first of all, Tillikum did a counterclockwise spin move using an arm bar and rolled Dawn into the water and killed her in probably just a couple of minutes. It really became a recovery operation soon after she got into the water. He broke her sternum; he bit off her left arm. She was scalped. She had a lot of internal bleeding. The posterior elements of three ribs were broken, and he simply wouldn't give her up. It took an additional 30 minutes just to pry his jaws open and get her out of him. And I think that these are the reasons why ... SeaWorld doesn't want to open these hearings up. Because the details are horrific."

Ventre added, "I just wrote a paper with Dr. Jett that describes the increased mortality and morbidity associated with the whales themselves. For example, we now know that killer whales in captivity typically don't live to even 10 years once they enter that environment. We also know that they break their teeth on the horizontal steel bars that separate them for training sessions. And if you take a look at their teeth, this might be the reason why they're dying at such an early age."
http://oceanicdefense.blogspot.com/2011/02/former-seaworld-trainers-speak-out.html


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## Kalina

In a well-orchestrated announcement, released just hours before the 1-year anniversary of the death of trainer Dawn Brancheau, SeaWorld says they are spending tens of millions of dollars to outfit their performance pools and trainers with â€œsafetyâ€ devices intended to prevent loss of life should another attack occur.

The PR move, designed to divert attention away from this tragedy, was reported last week by the Orlando Sentinel and the CBS Early Show (see videos below) as SeaWorld plans to resume â€œwaterworkâ€ in their killer whale performances at all three of its U.S.-based theme parks. This announcement comes despite the unresolved conclusions of the upcoming OSHA vs. SeaWorld hearings where it is anticipated that SeaWorld will ask a judge to seal the details from the public as SeaWorld challenges OSHAâ€™s citation for willfully placing their employees at risk.

On Saturday, February 26, 2011 author and journalist, David Kirby, appeared on Fox News to discuss these issues as well as the negative effects of orca captivity:
As the details of the tragic incident on February 24, 2010 continue to unfold, it increasingly appears that Dawnâ€™s death was a calculated risk the marine park was willing to take in the preservation of their signature â€œShamuâ€ shows, which are at the core of the theme parkâ€™s multi-billion-dollar entertainment business. But former SeaWorld trainers continue to come forward and speak out about the safety deficiencies, the negative effects of killer whale (orca) captivity and the details surrounding the tragic, yet avoidable loss of Mrs. Brancheau.

While graphic and painful, these details need to be brought to light in order to avoid future tragedies and to expose the exploitation of killer whales and trainers alike. On a date that should have been reserved as a day of reflection and remembrance, SeaWorld instead chose to use this sad anniversary as another opportunity to promote themselves as a caring, responsible institution with the best interest of the orcas, trainers and the public in mind. With SeaWorldâ€™s lack of discretion, it was necessary for the ugly truth to be made public, mindful of the grief and pain the family and friends of Dawn must feel. By revealing these disturbing facts, it is hoped that another unfortunate incident can be averted and is not intended to add to their sorrow. Our hearts truly go out to all who knew Dawn, especially her family, friends and coworkers during this upsetting and difficult time.

In the video below from the CBS Early Show, February 24, 2011, former SeaWorld trainer Dr Jeffrey Ventre explains why SeaWorld wants to keep the facts about orca captivity and Dawnâ€™s death from public examination. Again, although graphic in nature, it is important that the public is aware of the truth:
Among the proposed â€œsafety improvementsâ€ unveiled by SeaWorld, the marine park says it has designed rising pool floors that can lift killer whales out of the water in perhaps less than a minuteâ€™s time.

â€œUpon initiation, it would immediately release and rise to the surface, lifting multiple killer whales, and then obviously could support multiple individuals,â€ said John Linn, SeaWorld Parksâ€™ senior director of engineering services.

In addition, SeaWorld said it intends to eventually outfit its trainers with emergency air supplies, initially designed for the U.S. military, that will feature automated breathing regulators and provide two-to-five minutes of air for a trainer trapped under water. The Orca Project reported on this false solution dubbed â€œSpare-Airâ€ in August, 2010 and several former SeaWorld trainers offered their perspective:

~Dr. John Jett: â€œThe scuba bottle solutionâ€¦ represents, in practical terms, nothing. In other words, this is a false solutionâ€

~Samantha Berg: â€œI think spare air or any kind of SCUBA gear that a trainer has to be wearing would likely CAUSE more problems than it prevents.â€

~Carol Ray: â€œThis is NOT a solution, and would not have prevented Dawnâ€™s recent death or the majority of injuries that have occurred as a result of the recent incidents we are aware of.

You can also read another report on Spare-Air here: SeaWorld Former Trainers Tell OSHA Spare Air Is No Solution

And the company says designers are researching rapidly expanding mechanisms that trainers could use in an attempt to quickly pry open a whaleâ€™s jaws in an emergency. Last year it was necessary to pry open Tilikumâ€™s mouth during recovery operations.

The company also intends to employ underwater vehicles that could be used to distract an out-of-control killer whale with pulsing lights and whale vocalizationsâ€¦ essentially an â€œunderwater robotic rodeo clownâ€.

These proposed changes are on top of other inadequate safety improvements SeaWorld has made in recent months, including installing removable guardrails around stage ledges (see photo below) and â€œnet boxesâ€ that reportedly deploy quickly in an emergency (read more about the new net device HERE). However, none of these proposed safety measures will sufficiently ensure the safety of its trainers. In fact, many are viewed as increased risks as more and more of these devices are introduced into the killer whalesâ€™ existing unnatural habitat.

Watch the full story below of SeaWorldâ€™s safety announcement and interviews with former trainers Drs John Jett and Jeffrey Ventre on the CBS Early Show:
Due to limited space requirements, the Orlando Sentinel published SeaWorldâ€™s proposed safety solution announcement on the evening of February 23, foregoing responses to questions asked of former SeaWorld trainer Dr. Jeffrey Ventre (and others). Therefore, the story was released without the opposing views of SeaWorldâ€™s statements. The Orca Project has published the Q & A with Dr. Ventre below:

Orlando Sentinel (OS): SeaWorld maintains that it wouldnâ€™t be proceeding with water work unless it was certain that its trainersâ€™ jobs have been made as safe as possible. Do you believe that it is at all possible for a trainer to safely work with a killer whale in the water?

Dr. Jeff Ventre (JV): Yes, most of the time, but not all of the time. A year later, itâ€™s clear that the 3 former trainers that died from captive orcas, Keltie Byrne, Alexis Martinez, and Dawn Brancheau were killed by free-thinking whales that broke from control and decided to hurt them. These facilities, SeaLand of the Pacific, Loro Parque, and SeaWorld, all have a vested interest in presenting these events as tragic accidents. That is why at the very first press conference, SeaWorld announced that Dawn had â€œslipped and fell and drowned.â€ What is concerning is that they came up with that fabrication after a closed-door session. Then they fed it to the Orange County Sheriff, who announced it to the world via press conference. The â€œpony tailâ€ pull-in was likely another tall tale. The evidence suggests that Tilikum used a counterclockwise roll move and arm-barred Dawn over the top and into the water. The details of the ensuing struggle and the extent of the massive injuries sustained challenge the claims put forth that this was simply an accidental drowning caused by an overzealous whale.

OS: Do you believe there is any way SeaWorld can adequately prepare for situations where whales break control?
JV: Preparation, for anything, is important. However, in real situations, like with Dawn, Keltie, or Alexis, things break down rapidly. Itâ€™s like in medicine when a â€œcodeâ€ is called. Itâ€™s nice to have a pre-determined instruction manual, but many times the manual gets tossed out the window when youâ€™re trying to save a life. My understanding is that in all 3 trainer deaths, efforts to save these young people were â€œthwartedâ€ by the whales, which out-maneuvered the teams of trainers trying to lend aid to their fallen colleagues. In all cases the trainers were either pulled back into the water, or prevented from leaving the pool. Additionally, life rings and hooks were avoided or pushed out of range. Call back slaps and underwater tones failed. These animals likely donâ€™t feel guilt the way we do and made powerful statements.

OS: Do you believe that some of these safety solutions â€“ particularly the lifting floor concept â€“ will genuinely improve safety?

JV: No. These gestures are designed to be expensive gadgets that â€œproveâ€ that SW is making things safer. There are no lifting floors or counter-measures available to kayakers, boaters and divers that interact with orcas in the wild, yet not one person in a kayak has ever been hurt. The obvious conclusion is that the stress associated with captivity makes them less predictable, and sometimes dangerous. These animals are not dogs. They have large brains and think for themselves. The irony here is that these counter-measures prove that the whales are not completely safe, and help demonstrate OSHAâ€™s case.

â€”â€”â€”â€“

Meanwhile, the killer whales themselves are gradually being re-trained through a process SeaWorld calls â€œwater desensitization trainingâ€ where orcas will presumably be desensitized to the presence of a trainer in the water. They eventually plan to put all of their killer whales through this behavioral training except for one- Tilikum, the large whale that killed Brancheau. The adult male is considered especially dangerous because he has been involved in three deaths over 20 years and is by far the biggest orca in SeaWorldâ€™s collection.

According to SeaWorld Animal Curator Chuck Tompkins, Tilikum had been put through â€œsome very basic sessions of water desenseâ€ before Brancheauâ€™s death and will undergo some further limited workâ€¦ but trainers will not get into the water with him at all.ï»¿
Reportedly, trainers have begun working with Tilikum on behaviors to be used in a new killer-whale show that will debut in SeaWorldâ€™s marine parks this spring. That show, at least for the foreseeable future, will be conducted entirely by trainers working from the stage. Since Brancheauâ€™s death, SeaWorld has kept Tilikum out of all performances and isolated him from the other 6 orcas in the pool complex, akin to a sentence of â€œsolitary confinementâ€ for his actions of last year. Recently, Tilikumâ€™s living conditions and access have been further restricted due to the ongoing construction to incorporate the new â€œsafetyâ€ measures. He is now confined to a shallow pool, not as deep as he is long. A rather cruel and unusual punishment for one of the worldâ€™s most complex, intelligent, social beings that are known to travel up to 100 miles a day in the wild. Therefore, Tilikumâ€™s exact fate, and his future, remains quite uncertain.

Stay tuned to The Orca Project for continuing developments.
http://theorcaproject.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/seaworld-safety-gimmicks-dont-measure-up/


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## Angi

If a trainer is crazy enough to want to get in the water with a whale that has killer in it's name then getting killed is a chance they take. I do feel bad for the whales though. A pool is probably awful for somthing meant to live in the ocean. In all honesty I really don't know that much about killer whales. I guess my only point is that getting killed is chance these people take.


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## Jacqui

No matter what they do, nothing will be perfect. The trainers know what risks they are taking. Sorry Candy, but this is one person who will given the chance go to Sea World again ... just as I go to zoos.


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## ChiKat

In December my sister went on a trip to California with her high school. They had to go to Sea World and she just put the pictures on Facebook yesterday. I saw the pictures of the orcas performing and wanted to cry. They are such beautiful creatures that do NOT BELONG IN A BATH TUB!!! It is not fair to these poor animals and I don't understand why more people can't see how wrong this is.


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## Jacqui

A bath tub? She must have taken really poor pictures then huh?

Just wondering here folks, aren't we all being just a tad hypercritical when we all have wild animals (tortoises) and I don't think any of us keep our animals in enclosures any where near the amount of space they would have naturally utilize. Then add into it, how many of our tortoises never get to live outside even. Atleast those whales do get to feel sunshine.

I know these comments really belong in a debate thread and perhaps I am feeling a bit confrontational today, but I just find it a bit curious why you all feel why our tortoises do not deserve the same as the whales.

I will also point out, it's because of these posts about the whale issue, that have me really wanting to go see them.


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## Angi

I hate crowds, so Sea World doesn't excite me. I used to go when my kids were little, but last summer when we had free passes my son didn't even want to go back. I think there is good and bad to SeaWorld. I know when ever a seal or something is found hurt at the beach SeaWorld nurses it back to health. That always makes the local news.


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## ChiKat

My captive bred tortoise is THRIVING under my care. If you could say the same about orcas kept in captivity I might feel differently.


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## Jacqui

ChiKat said:


> My captive bred tortoise is THRIVING under my care. If you could say the same about orcas kept in captivity I might feel differently.



Let's see their oldest CB lived to be 25 yrs old and produced young. I don't think you are to that point are you, so can we really compare levels of thriving?

Then just take a second and think back over just this last month... how many tortoises has this forum alone saw die under our care while being owned by folks for just a few months (or sadly, less)?

Just as with the whales, we are just barely touching the tip of learning what tortoises need. It is sad, but it seems we often learn the most thru our failures. Each loss should help us to learn more about how to save these animals before they are all gone. Do ones killed by sharks, other whales, whaling ships, and disease in the wild help us learn or do they just die?

Just as we can't return our now captive tortoises to the wild, those whales also can't go "home" again. So since they have to stay captive, shouldn't we allow folks to see them? See them and get a better understanding of them and learn to appreciate them more, to want to help try to save those few still living free. I think most of us, are more moved by viewing a live animal then just seeing a picture of one. I think those captive whales are helping create an awareness about whales that can't be done without the living animal.


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## exoticsdr

Jacqui...you go girl....love it when someone can actually see THROUGH the issue and not be blinded by the emotions of the subject.


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## Jacqui

Jacqui said:


> ChiKat said:
> 
> 
> 
> My captive bred tortoise is THRIVING under my care. If you could say the same about orcas kept in captivity I might feel differently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's see their oldest CB lived to be 25 yrs old and produced young. I don't think you are to that point are you, so can we really compare levels of thriving?
Click to expand...


Just so you know, in no way am I putting you down for your lack of time with your tortoise. I am not. I am in fact proud of you and everybody else in here who have tortoises doing well for them. I sincerely hope 25 years from now, your record way passes Sea World's. I think you will find that just as you are working hard to learn more, to do more, to better not just your tortoise's life, but all tortoises wild and captive, so are the folks at Sea World.

I also give my thanks (and sympathy) to those who have lost their tortoises. The thanks is for being willing to share those losses with us, so we learn and hopefully can keep another tortoise from suffering the same fate.


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## Tom

Jacqui and Dr. Westin, Where were you two during the last go around with this topic? I gave up trying with this crowd. I kept arguing for a while, but I can't argue with people's emotions. They feel how they feel and I was unable to change it with facts or first hand personal experience. They aren't going to change my opinion either, so I sort of understand.

Jacqui, you made some excellent points and I agree whole-heartedly. As soon as it warms up, my family will also be making a trip to Sea World, where my daughter will learn first hand about the beautiful wonders of the sea. I can't make her sit through 30 seconds of the discovery channel, but she'll watch live animals right in front of her indefinitely. Then she'll repeat back to you everything she learned about them.


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## ChiKat

I wasnâ€™t even going to TOUCH the orca/tortoise comparison, but Iâ€™ll go with it.

People here are always preaching about keeping tortoises in optimal conditions- as naturally as possible, while allowing them to grow and thrive.
Spacious enclosures, natural sunlight, allowing them to graze like they do in the wild, living outside as much as possible, given a diet that they might find in the wild, HOT and HUMID, etc. 
The unnatural things that some of us do for our tortoises, such as feeding them generous portions every day, help them thrive, if anything.

What happens when tortoises are kept DRY in tiny enclosures, on the wrong substrate, fed an unnatural and unhealthy diet, played with and handled constantly, etc.
You get stressed-out, sickly tortoises with shortened lifespans.
But we know better!

What happens when orcas are confined to small, acoustically-dead, concrete enclosures; separated from their family; fed an unnatural diet of dead fish; forced to perform tricks?
You get stressed-out, sickly orcas with shortened lifespans.

I still would not agree with keeping orcas in captivity, even if they were kept in more natural conditions where they could thrive and act like NORMAL orcas, but I might not be as upset about it.


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## exoticsdr

Tom....apologies, didn't know how to express myself on this subject without seeming to compromise my Oath.....Jacqui...thanks for clarifying my own thoughts on the subject....more later. thanks again.


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## Candy

Here's a challenge to anyone up for it......Please post your facts on captivity of Killer Whales and how it is beneficial for them or anyone else. If you do post anything about education purposes please post facts and not opinions. I will be posting a thread on the facts against it since I've been studying these whales for the past several months.


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## Jacqui

Candy said:


> Here's a challenge to anyone up for it......Please post your facts on captivity of Killer Whales and how it is beneficial for them or anyone else. If you do post anything about education purposes please post facts and not opinions. I will be posting a thread on the facts against it since I've been studying these whales for the past several months.



Candy, two things, let's move this into the debate section off topic section, because that is really where it belongs. Second, I won't be joining in, tho I do love a good debate I just don't have the time to spend on it. I have what I feel are better things to do with my limited time like the information/articles I am working on to help folks with tortoises and getting things done for the betterment for the ones under my own care. Such as getting my enclosures ready for warm weather. I do applaud you for having the time and energy to give to whales, I just don't have the same and believe I can make a bigger difference (plus an actual difference) by using the same on just my passion for tortoises.


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## Kalina

To Chikat: You are absolutely right, multiple killer whales living in SW tanks is just like living in a bath tub to them... Those tanks may appear huge to us, but then, we don't live in the ocean... It reminds me of a human having to live in a closet, having just enough room to move but unable to actually walk more than a couple of steps. Killer Whales travel hundreds of miles per day in the wild, there is physically no way this can happen in an aquarium. If you want to learn more about cetaceans, there's plenty of research websites and Whale watching tours that will give you a true look at Killer Whale behavior... I wouldn't recommend you go to an aquarium to learn about Whales or Dolphins, the staff there only tell you their opinions and not facts, I will message you a link from the HSUS complaining about SW educational material being innacurate, you would do much better doing your own research or asking a marine biologist, somebody who know's what they're talking about and can back it up, not a mere animal trainer.
Also, there are plenty of DVD's covering this subject that go into detail, also if you have the time, watch "The Cove"... I love this documentary as it covers a lot of the natural behaviors, which i found more interesting than watching an Orca break spin on a ledge... Chikat, it's a great thing that you hold so much compassion and care about what happens to these highly social, intelligent beings... Keep it real and disregard the caricature you can see in the tank. 

To Chikat:

1. Both orcas (commonly known as killer whales) and dolphins are members of the dolphin family Delphinidae, of which orcas are the largest members. There are more than 500 orcas, dolphins and other members of the dolphin family held in captivity in the United States.
2. Before the passage of the Marine Mammal Protection Act (MMPA) in 1972, roughly 1,133 dolphins had been captured in the U.S. waters. From 1964 to 1989, 138 orcas were captured worldwide for aquariums. While the MMPA makes it more difficult to capture marine mammals from the wild, aquariums still can apply for permits or import animals caught in other countries.
3. Despite their claim, marine parks do not help to conserve marine mammals through their breeding programs. The marine mammals most commonly bred in captivity are not considered threatened or endangered.
4. Aquariums have no intention of returning captive breed animals to the wild. In fact, they frequently argue that the success of such endeavors would be unlikely and vehemently oppose release efforts.
5. The results of studies conducted in captivity may not be adequately extrapolated to wild animals for several reasons. Captive marine mammals live in small, sterile enclosures and are deprived of their natural activity level, social groups and interactions with their natural environment, and many captive marine mammals develop stereotypic behavior and/or aggression not known to occur in the wild. What we have learned from captive research is that orcas and dolphins are more intelligent than previously imagined, providing more evidence that a life in captivity is inhumane.
6. Current research shows that there is no significant difference between the longevity of captive and wild orcas/dolphins. Despite the controlled environment, routine veterinary care and medications including anti-depressants, captive dolphins and orcas do not outlive their wild counterparts.
7. Forcing orcas and dolphins to live in groups dictated by humans disrupts the dynamics of the natural hierarchy, which in turn upsets their natural behavior.
8. Surveys show that most people prefer to see marine mammals displaying natural behaviors rather than performing â€œtricks and stunts.â€
9. A public display of wild animals is not necessary to engage people. Many wild animals, including several whale species, enjoy a high degree of public interest and concern despite never being maintained in captivity for public display.
10. Keeping wild animals in captivity for human amusement is inherently cruel, as it deprives them of the ability to freely engage in instinctual behaviors in their natural environment.
http://www.bornfreeusa.org/facts.php?p=2688&more=1

Found this and found it quite interesting:

PRO-CAPS publicly defend the captive industry by stating the marine mammals are not suffering because they do not feel emotions.

Here is an actual conversation from a PRO-CAP sent to me:

â€œApplying human trauma to orca trauma is honestly not relevant. Applying any human emotions, feelings, or idealsâ€¦.(anthropomorphism)â€¦.is something I will not do. Its easy for people to anthropomorphisize a situation because it makes it easier for THEM to relate to the animal or thing they are involved with. In the world of science any debates or arguments that involve feelings or human situations applied to orcas would not be taken seriously, therefore I honestly cannot either. I sympathize with your emotions, but I cannot share them, my field requires my brain to think differently.â€

Well with regards to this statement â€œIn the world of science any debates or arguments that involve feelings or human situations applied to orcas would not be taken seriously, therefore I honestly cannot eitherâ€œ

This is false information and it was trying to be fed to me as truth just as it is to so many other people. There is research regarding animal emotions in captive marine mammals and numerous other animals.

From psychology departments to scientists, there has been a whole side of research regarding animal emotions that is being ignored by these PRO-CAPS. 
Some scientists who study animal emotions work in the field of cognitive ethology. The fusion of cognitive science and classical ethology into cognitive ethology â€œemphasizes observing animals under more-or-less natural conditions, with the objective of understanding the evolution, adaptation (function), causation, and development of the species-specific behavioral repertoire.

Many cognitive ethologists were originally white lab coat wearing scientists who inflicted terrible pain upon the animals they studied, where after some time they realized animals do have emotions and it would be better to study the animals in their own natural setting versus the controlled lab studies. Many documentaries we watch on the Animal Planet or science channels regarding wild marine mammals is information provided by cognitive ethologists.

Marc Bekoff, a leading scientist with more than 30 years of experience has written a few really good books on animal emotions. I could do a whole story on his books and findings alone. I highly suggest checking out some of his books as fascinating stories lie inside pages waiting to be heard.

Many PRO-CAPS have to see â€œscientificâ€ proof to believe the negative sides to captivity exist, which out way the positive side for the marine animals in captivity. The type of â€œscientificâ€ proof they want to see is from the white lab coat wearing scientist in a controlled environmental study. We all know what happens to animals in labs, I do not need to elaborate on this matter.

What I would to point out is Why would any individual who claims to love animals and be pro-life wish to see marine mammals being tortured, extensively till death offers them a relief? It comes back to Cognitive dissonance. 
Basically it is easier for a PRO-CAP to feel better about oneâ€™s self through the justification that these marine mammals will always be in captivity so let us love them for who they are. A need is also being fulfilled for a PRO-CAP though, their own need. Many PRO-CAPâ€™s are fanatics regarding captive cetaceans, they have extensive knowledge regarding captive orcas. Captive orcas are celebrities.

Also what we found was each PRO-CAP has their favorite captive orca. Another finding regarding PRO-CAPs was yes, they did know some information about wild orcas yet their real knowledge came down to captive orcas. PRO-CAPs also use the defense that SeaWorld does all kinds of conservation efforts, despite lack of conservation efforts for wild orcas. We, here at Withoutmethereisnou know just as much information regarding wild orcas as we do captive orcas. We also do not have a favorite orcaâ€¦.well I may be partial to Granny as she is living proof of the true life span of an orca.

Tilikum now has been forced to virtually live alone. He is locked in a small pool the majority of the day alone. He is no longer allowed to go do his big fluke splash he was so famous for in SeaWorld shows. This is Tilikumâ€™s life now without Dawn.




I, personally do not label myself as an ANTI-CAP. I am a person who is aware of immoral acts occurring to captive marine mammals. I could have ignored what I was learning. I could have stated what I was learning was not the truth despite the evidence or I could have done my best to help bring about changes. I made the choice to not avoid/ignore the issues at hand and instead I have played a very important role into setting the changes I wish to see in motion. I carry no guilt, no shame. I am not mean or oppressive to PRO-CAâ€™s. I protest, sign petitions, write blogs and make videos all in the hope of raising awareness. I am just asking for more love/respect to be shown towards captive marine mammals and one another.

The one year anniversary of Dawn Brancheauâ€™s death is another reminder of what irreversible damage can come from living in a certain chronic state of cognitive dissonance. It is apparent Dawn felt Tilikum deserved better, thus the reason for Dawnâ€™s extra work with Tilikum in the recent years. Dawn never publicly spoke out about the concerns for Tilikum, she felt compelled to remain a trainer and continue working in an unsafe work environment. Dawn died doing what she wanted to do, despite known consequences from the past. The deaths of Dawn Brancheau, Alexis Martinez, Daniel Dukes and Keltie Lee Byrne raises concerns that it can continue to happen in the future.

Ask yourself if you are a PRO-CAP or an ANTI-CAP? Are you living in a state of cognitive dissonance that is directly or indirectly negatively affecting captive marine mammals?
http://withoutmethereisnou.wordpres...ic-behind-support-of-marine-mammal-captivity/


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## ChiKat

From Tom's pyramiding thread:


Tom said:


> Just a bit of animal trivia for you. Most (almost all) animals live nearly twice as long in captivity as they do in the wild. This is due to excellent medical care, lack of internal and external parasites, excellent hydration, balanced nutrition as needed, lack of competition from conspecifics, lack of predation and stress from attempted predation, temperature controlled shelter 24/7, etc...



_Most_ animals...but not orcas. Interesting.

"Researchers have determined an average life exptectancy for wild killer whales of about 30 years for males and 50 years for females. Despite those facts, which are commonly accepted within the scientific community, marine park officials still declare publicly that orcas donâ€™t live much longer than 20 years."
http://www.orcahome.de/lifeexpectancy.htm


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## Kalina

Also Chikat, I just came across this because i was doing some research on Beluga Whales... 
The National Marine Mammal Laboratory, Marine Mammal Education Web, NMFS state that Beluga Whales live 35 to 50 years. here is the link to their website which states this: http://www.afsc.noaa.gov/nmml/education/cetaceans/beluga.php#old

Now, SeaWorld's educational website states that beluga Whales live 25 to 30 years. Here is their website which states this: http://www.seaworld.org/infobooks/beluga/bedeath.html

25 to 30 years? Do they mean for "captive" Beluga's? Because according to NMFS, this is just half of their life expectancy right? Well, maybe a little over half.... This is just one example of how Aquariums mislead the public to their own advantage... And what's sad is: Children visit these places and trust that all information given is true and accurate, unfortunately, so do their parents.


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## Kristina

Kalina said:


> This is just one example of how Aquariums mislead the public to their own advantage... And what's sad is: Children visit these places and trust that all information given is true and accurate, unfortunately, so do their parents.



You could change "aquariums" to "pet shops" and be talking about tortoises - just because whales are bigger, doesn't mean that any other animal suffers less in captivity.


----------



## Kalina

kyryah said:


> Kalina said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is just one example of how Aquariums mislead the public to their own advantage... And what's sad is: Children visit these places and trust that all information given is true and accurate, unfortunately, so do their parents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You could change "aquariums" to "pet shops" and be talking about tortoises - just because whales are bigger, doesn't mean that any other animal suffers less in captivity.
Click to expand...


Most animals suffer at the hands of man, because we're selfish and don't care... As Ric O'Barry says "we're a spectator Society" and we haven't learned to respect and to not cross the line between us and wildlife!

Infact, i read part of an article yesterday where Tortoises are being killed by people in high numbers... The Seal hunt has started in Canada, there are people clubbing Seals to death. Soon the Faroe Islands will start their annual slaughter of Pilot Whales (in the most inhumane ways)... 
It's all about human greed, it's all about money. All life should have value, all life should be respected... Knowing what we do about Cetaceans, how intelligent they are, how they feel anger, fear, pain, love, excitement, grief..etc should we really have them in concrete tanks under the guise of education? Especially if you're not being educated by the marine park in question.


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## Candy

I see that Kalina has posted a great deal on Killer Whales in captivity for people to read. I also have a few websites if anyone is interested in reading or learning anything about these wonderful creatures. Still waiting for that information about the positive points of captivity if anyone can post them. 

Here are a few websites if anyone is interested in learning the truth behind captivity. This one tells all the names of the Killer Whales who've been in captivity and who've died in captivity. Notice the difference in the numbers?

http://theorcaproject.wordpress.com/killer-whale-orca-database/killer-whale-orca-living-park/

http://theorcaproject.wordpress.com/killer-whale-orca-database/killer-whale-orca-dead-name/

And here's a link that you can read that lets you know just how far Sea World will go to protect their parks for profit.

http://www.change.org/petitions/sea...a-to-have-closed-hearings#?opt_new=t&opt_fb=t







Jacqui said:


> Candy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a challenge to anyone up for it......Please post your facts on captivity of Killer Whales and how it is beneficial for them or anyone else. If you do post anything about education purposes please post facts and not opinions. I will be posting a thread on the facts against it since I've been studying these whales for the past several months.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Candy, two things, let's move this into the debate section off topic section, because that is really where it belongs. Second, I won't be joining in, tho I do love a good debate I just don't have the time to spend on it. I have what I feel are better things to do with my limited time like the information/articles I am working on to help folks with tortoises and getting things done for the betterment for the ones under my own care. Such as getting my enclosures ready for warm weather. I do applaud you for having the time and energy to give to whales, I just don't have the same and believe I can make a bigger difference (plus an actual difference) by using the same on just my passion for tortoises.
Click to expand...


Jacqui I just wanted to show you the dimensions of Lolita's tank at the Florida Sea Aquarium since you didn't seem to think they were very small. And I'm sorry it seems that I've upset you by your comments that you're making to me. Do you really think that protecting one animal is more important then another? I'm taking this from the comment that you made about "making an actual difference". How do you know what difference I have made or haven't made? I take a bit of insult at that comment and don't appreciate or understand where it's coming from. I have been working very hard on learning about these Killer Whales and teaching others about them, the same as I learned about tortoises by coming on here and reading books about them. I don't understand where your comments are coming from. I care about every animal and not just one species and I won't apologize to anyone for that. I have never came on here and insulted anything that you believed in and I've got to admit that I'm a little taken back by you posts. I can understand if you don't want to post to this thread, but I was just asking for your facts just as I was asking for the other posters facts. Anyway here's the dimensions of her tank if you're interested as it is pretty small even by standards.

Lolita is 21 feet long and weighs approx: 6000 lbs. and her tank from the front wall to the wall that forms the barrier is only 35' wide. It is 20 feet deep in the middle. By law the killer whales tanks must be at least 48' in both directions.


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## Kalina

Candy, if you have made just one person think twice about visiting an aquarium, you have indeed made an "actual" difference for captive Dolphins and Killer Whales and i applaud you for that, and I'm sure the animals would too given the chance.

Lolita's tank is in fact too small by government standards, it's too shallow and she doesn't have the required straight line of travel in the center. I'm surprised she hasn't accidently jumped out of her tank during her show jumps. Her tank is clearly illegal, yet nobody will do anything about it. The HSUS has repeatedly made complaints regarding Lolita's illegal tank and been ignored. I guess the state of Florida needs the income from MSQ. The Miami Seaquarium has a permit to Rehabilitate and release animals... Not Imprison and Exploit!

For people to argue that she is happy is simply ridiculous, you will notice how they won't acknowledge that they feel sadness and depression because of their captivity, but will acknowledge they feel happiness?

Also, people will argue that the annual Dolphin slaughter in japan has nothing to do with aquariums... Aquariums pay big money to these fishermen for live Dolphins, apparently, just one live Dolphin will sell for $15000, this is how the cruel fishermen can continue to fuel and buy banger boats for the slaughters. If aquariums stopped buying Dolphins from them, they would find it impossible to continue doing it, a dead Dolphin's meat will sell for $600 but since the documentary "The Cove" came out, people stopped eating it and they have stockpiles of it, they even give it to school children for free even tho it's laced with mercury.
Also, aquariums can claim that they don't get their animals from Japan, but they've found a way by having Japanese Aquariums buy the animals for public display and then places like SW can buy the animal from them which keeps them out of the Dolphin Slaughter issue.


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## B K

So how do you feel about Tortoise keepers


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## Kalina

I don't know enough about Torts/Turtles to answer your question... If they live longer being free and don't experience stress related illness and have very strong bonds with their family, I would say let them stay free....

I focus on Dolphins and Killer Whales because I feel they're being exploited, it angers me that big companies make BIG $$$ off these animals and then lie by calling it "education".

I love all animals, big or small, I love them all... But I can't focus on them all because it would drive me insane... Some people campaign for Elephants or Tigers. There's plenty of issues in this world for everyone to take an interest and get active.

I'm also heavily into making harsher penalties for Pitbull Fighting, I've even been on TV trying to bring more awareness to it... The whole Michael Vick case was bittersweet for me... Bad because of the act itself, but good because he was a famous footballer and his case brought a ton of attention to it.

With Whales and Dolphins: I feel we have a lot to learn from them, if only we would listen to them. We can't learn from them in aquariums because they display unnatural behavior, there was breaking news last week that scientists are now communicating with Dolphins (both ways)... When we have them in captivity, the communication is one way (us telling them what to do via hand signals) But like Ric O'Barry said, "Dolphins don't have hands" so how can they communicate back? They are a species with intelligence as great as ours, this cannot be ignored.


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## Jacqui

Candy said:


> Jacqui said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Candy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a challenge to anyone up for it......Please post your facts on captivity of Killer Whales and how it is beneficial for them or anyone else. If you do post anything about education purposes please post facts and not opinions. I will be posting a thread on the facts against it since I've been studying these whales for the past several months.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Candy, two things, let's move this into the debate section off topic section, because that is really where it belongs. Second, I won't be joining in, tho I do love a good debate I just don't have the time to spend on it. I have what I feel are better things to do with my limited time like the information/articles I am working on to help folks with tortoises and getting things done for the betterment for the ones under my own care. Such as getting my enclosures ready for warm weather. I do applaud you for having the time and energy to give to whales, I just don't have the same and believe I can make a bigger difference (plus an actual difference) by using the same on just my passion for tortoises.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Jacqui I just wanted to show you the dimensions of Lolita's tank at the Florida Sea Aquarium since you didn't seem to think they were very small.
Click to expand...




Did I say they weren't small? I do think they are small, just as I think most of us keep our turtles and tortoises in too small of enclosures compared to what they may "deserve" or wish/need. My comment was they are not in bathtub sized enclosures (unless it's a tub for all of TFO to bath in at one time.) 




Candy said:


> And I'm sorry it seems that I've upset you by your comments that you're making to me.



Not upset by your comments. In fact, I sorta go between chuckling over them and feeling a tad sorry for you to be honest. It always amazes me how differently folks can read and take the written word.




Candy said:


> Do you really think that protecting one animal is more important then another? I'm taking this from the comment that you made about "making an actual difference".



Honestly there are times, when yes one animal's life is more valuable. To bring this down to a level just about everybody can understand, ask any parent who they would choose to save if they could only save one human, their own child or a total stranger. Human nature is when it comes down to those finial hard choices, we choose what we love and what we value the most to save. Before anybody says "but humans aren't animals", they are indeed animals. In this case, between a whale and a tortoise, yes I do choose to give my support, time, and energy to helping the tortoise. I also give it to dogs and cats before whales too, as those are animals I do rescue work with. Those animals are more important to ME. 

Which to me is another point for having a few of these animals not only in captivity, but more importantly where people can see them. We tend to bond with and value more, the things we have a personal connection with, that we can touch, feel or see with our own eyes (not in books, pictures, or movies).

A side note: back to your question as to one animal being more important then another. I took that as in a personal judgment as to importance rating. You could also look at it as in is a more science (less emotional) based call on it's importance. I did not do so in this question.




Candy said:


> How do you know what difference I have made or haven't made?



I don't, that is why I never said ANYthing about what difference you may or may not have made. Once more, I was talking about me, that's why I used the word, "I". Please reread what I wrote, see all those "I" sentences? I means Jacqui, it does not mean Candy. The part I wrote about you was when I applauded you for having the time and energy for this. Or when I said you may have time for this, but I just don't. It's not where and how I want to use my time and energy.




Candy said:


> I take a bit of insult at that comment and don't appreciate or understand where it's coming from.



It's coming from your imagination, since I never said or made any assumptions about you. If anybody should be insulted it should be me for all these false rewording of my comments. (no I am not insulted, just sorta feeling it's par for the course)




Candy said:


> I have never came on here and insulted anything that you believed in and I've got to admit that I'm a little taken back by you posts.



I am sorry you feel insulted by me finally having enough and giving MY beliefs and thoughts on the matter. I have no idea where you come by the belief that I have insulted (or meant to insult) anything you have said. I made my comments by giving MY thoughts and knowledge, not by making this about you..which it seems to have become.


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## Kalina

Here is an interesting article regarding the intelligence of Dolphins, we're learning more and more about them now, very intriguing animals:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/article6973994.ece
Dolphins have been declared the worldâ€™s second most intelligent creatures after humans, with scientists suggesting they are so bright that they should be treated as â€œnon-human personsâ€.

Studies into dolphin behaviour have highlighted how similar their communications are to those of humans and that they are brighter than chimpanzees. These have been backed up by anatomical research showing that dolphin brains have many key features associated with high intelligence.

The researchers argue that their work shows it is morally unacceptable to keep such intelligent animals in amusement parks or to kill them for food or by accident when fishing. Some 300,000 whales, dolphins and porpoises die in this way each year.

â€œMany dolphin brains are larger than our own and second in mass only to the human brain when corrected for body size,â€ said Lori Marino, a zoologist at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, who has used magnetic resonance imaging scans to map the brains of dolphin species and compare them with those of primates.
The neuroanatomy suggests psychological continuity between humans and dolphins and has profound implications for the ethics of human-dolphin interactions,â€ she added.

Dolphins have long been recognised as among the most intelligent of animals but many researchers had placed them below chimps, which some studies have found can reach the intelligence levels of three-year-old children. Recently, however, a series of behavioural studies has suggested that dolphins, especially species such as the bottlenose, could be the brighter of the two. The studies show how dolphins have distinct personalities, a strong sense of self and can think about the future.

It has also become clear that they are â€œculturalâ€ animals, meaning that new types of behaviour can quickly be picked up by one dolphin from another.

In one study, Diana Reiss, professor of psychology at Hunter College, City University of New York, showed that bottlenose dolphins could recognise themselves in a mirror and use it to inspect various parts of their bodies, an ability that had been thought limited to humans and great apes.

In another, she found that captive animals also had the ability to learn a rudimentary symbol-based language.

Other research has shown dolphins can solve difficult problems, while those living in the wild co-operate in ways that imply complex social structures and a high level of emotional sophistication.

In one recent case, a dolphin rescued from the wild was taught to tail-walk while recuperating for three weeks in a dolphinarium in Australia.

After she was released, scientists were astonished to see the trick spreading among wild dolphins who had learnt it from the former captive.

There are many similar examples, such as the way dolphins living off Western Australia learnt to hold sponges over their snouts to protect themselves when searching for spiny fish on the ocean floor.

Such observations, along with others showing, for example, how dolphins could co-operate with military precision to round up shoals of fish to eat, have prompted questions about the brain structures that must underlie them.

Size is only one factor. Researchers have found that brain size varies hugely from around 7oz for smaller cetacean species such as the Ganges River dolphin to more than 19lb for sperm whales, whose brains are the largest on the planet. Human brains, by contrast, range from 2lb-4lb, while a chimpâ€™s brain is about 12oz.

When it comes to intelligence, however, brain size is less important than its size relative to the body.

What Marino and her colleagues found was that the cerebral cortex and neocortex of bottlenose dolphins were so large that â€œthe anatomical ratios that assess cognitive capacity place it second only to the human brainâ€. They also found that the brain cortex of dolphins such as the bottlenose had the same convoluted folds that are strongly linked with human intelligence.

Such folds increase the volume of the cortex and the ability of brain cells to interconnect with each other. â€œDespite evolving along a different neuroanatomical trajectory to humans, cetacean brains have several features that are correlated with complex intelligence,â€ Marino said.

Marino and Reiss will present their findings at a conference in San Diego, California, next month, concluding that the new evidence about dolphin intelligence makes it morally repugnant to mistreat them.

Thomas White, professor of ethics at Loyola Marymount University, Los Angeles, who has written a series of academic studies suggesting dolphins should have rights, will speak at the same conference.

â€œThe scientific research . . . suggests that dolphins are â€˜non-human personsâ€™ who qualify for moral standing as individuals,â€ he said.


----------



## ChiKat

Jacqui said:


> I do applaud you for having the time and energy to give to whales, I just don't have the same and believe I can make a bigger difference *(plus an actual difference) *by using the same on just my passion for tortoises.


(bolded mine)



Jacqui said:


> I have no idea where you come by the belief that I have insulted (or meant to insult) anything you have said. I made my comments by giving MY thoughts and knowledge, not by making this about you..which it seems to have become.



Maybe I took that first quote the wrong way, but I thought that was a little...snarky. Yes, you said you applaud her for having the time, but you also said you are making an actual difference...as opposed to what she is doing? Ouch.

Kalina and Candy have posted clear information, facts, and statistics listing reasons why orcas should not be kept in captivity. How it is detrimental to their health, well-being, not to mention cruel being captured from the wild and taken from their families...
I have seen nothing logical presented that explains why people feel it is better for orcas to be kept in captivity. I've only seen comments such as, "well I will still go to Seaworld" and "you're being too emotional."



B K said:


> So how do you feel about Tortoise keepers



I don't have a problem with people keeping tortoises if we can make their lives better by keeping them in captivity. 
As I stated before:



ChiKat said:


> From Tom's pyramiding thread:
> 
> 
> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a bit of animal trivia for you. Most (almost all) animals live nearly twice as long in captivity as they do in the wild. This is due to excellent medical care, lack of internal and external parasites, excellent hydration, balanced nutrition as needed, lack of competition from conspecifics, lack of predation and stress from attempted predation, temperature controlled shelter 24/7, etc...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Most_ animals...but not orcas. Interesting.
> 
> "Researchers have determined an average life exptectancy for wild killer whales of about 30 years for males and 50 years for females. Despite those facts, which are commonly accepted within the scientific community, marine park officials still declare publicly that orcas donâ€™t live much longer than 20 years."
> http://www.orcahome.de/lifeexpectancy.htm
Click to expand...


So while my tortoise might live longer in captivity, orcas certainly are not.


----------



## Jacqui

ChiKat said:


> Jacqui said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do applaud you for having the time and energy to give to whales, I just don't have the same and believe I can make a bigger difference *(plus an actual difference) *by using the same on just my passion for tortoises.
> 
> 
> 
> (bolded mine)
> 
> 
> 
> Jacqui said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea where you come by the belief that I have insulted (or meant to insult) anything you have said. I made my comments by giving MY thoughts and knowledge, not by making this about you..which it seems to have become.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe I took that first quote the wrong way, but I thought that was a little...snarky. Yes, you said you applaud her for having the time, but you also said you are making an actual difference...as opposed to what she is doing? Ouch.
Click to expand...


First I had to lookup the term of "snarky" and found this "snide," "catty," "snotty," or "bitchy.".

You know something IF I had wanted to say SHE (Candy) was not making a difference I would have. Did I? NO! I said and I repeat I I I I I I I (got it? I, Jacqui) just don't have the same (time and energy to give to whales) and I (that's me, Jacqui again) believe I can make a bigger difference for tortoises. Then I went on to say.." (plus an actual difference)" meaning I can't make an impact (ie actual difference) on whales, but I can make an impact in how tortoises, mainly hingebacks are cared for.

I know somebody used that keeping just one person from going to Seaworld is making a difference (and for the person saying it and Candy, who I think it was said about, that may be true). I keep with that example which for me, in determining if I were making an actual difference, it would not be one to me. To make sure that is clear, in my mind and in regards to my own self judging of my own ability to make a difference, that would fall as making no difference. It's just not the sort of making a difference I want to make. I want to know that something I did, directly helped to keep a tortoise alive. To me and for me, that is making a difference. We each have different things that we feel makes a difference and different levels of needing to make those differences.

Are we clear yet?? In the quote made to Candy:

"I do applaud you for having the time and energy to give to whales, I just don't have the same and believe I can make a bigger difference (plus an actual difference) by using the same on just my passion for tortoises." 

Everything before the comma is about Candy. After that comma is all about me with no hidden meanings whatsoever. 






ChiKat said:


> "Researchers have determined an average life exptectancy for wild killer whales of about 30 years for males and 50 years for females. Despite those facts, which are commonly accepted within the scientific community, marine park officials still declare publicly that orcas donâ€™t live much longer than 20 years."
> http://www.orcahome.de/lifeexpectancy.htm



So while my tortoise might live longer in captivity, orcas certainly are not.
[/quote]
I looked at that site, the most interesting thing I see is that they are making HUGE gains in how long these animals are living in captivity as the knowledge is beginning gained.

I have some questions for you who like to do research and quote it in here. First off, how many whales are born each year? How many a year are found dead from old age (the 30 or 50)? How many each year are dead before 30/50 years due to death caused by whaling, sharks, disease, ect..,?


----------



## ChiKat

Jacqui said:


> First I had to lookup the term of "snarky" and found this "snide," "catty," "snotty," or "bitchy."



Sorry, that's actually a word I've never used in real life  I've only seen it on the Internet. I did not mean to call you bitchy. Poor choice of words- I apologize!!
eta: I actually looked that word up on my Macbook's dictionary before using it and it said "cutting" or "critical"  That's what I get for trying to use new lingo 

I also understand now what you were saying about making an actual difference. Sorry I misinterpreted that.



> Proponents of captive whale programs claim that they are important for conservation, education, and breeding purposes. But, is exhibiting an animal in a prison-like environment really conservation at all?
> 
> Keeping a whale in captivity doesnâ€™t keep it safer than it would be in its natural habitat; in fact research on wild orcas has shown us that the health and behaviour of captive whales differs greatly from wild ones. *To support conservation for orcas, more effort should be put into making their habitat safer for them. To educate the public about them, people can watch documentaries about wild orcas or go and see them in the wild with reputable whale watching tours. When orca habitat is safe for them, they breed on their own without human help just fine.*


From http://www.keepwhaleswild.org/ which is actually a short, to-the-point website that is easy to understand.

Also from that website, since I feel the people who I want to click on the link aren't going to 

Environment:
Orca natural habitat is vast expanses of ocean. Wild orcas travel up to 100 miles (160km) in a day, and dive to a depth of almost 200 feet (60 m). They spend less than 20% of their time at the water's surface. In contrast, orcas in captivity reside in a collection of small tanks filled with chlorinated water. This habitat can be equated to a human being relegated for life to an area maybe as big as a few rooms and full of chemically treated air.

Food:
In nature, orcas eat a wide selection of prey, depending on the area they inhabit. Their food can include a variety of: 30 different species of fish, sharks, squid, seals, sea lions, walruses, sea otters, birds, and even other types of whales. Orcas in most aquariums are fed a monotonous diet, primarily of dead herring. This does not have anything to do with the whale's optimum health; this is merely what is most convenient for humans to feed them.

Socialization:
Orcas in nature live in complex social groups and maintain strong social bonds with members of their pod. In captivity, orcas are put into social groups not of their own choosing which will change many times over their lives; in the wild a social group usually only changes due to births and deaths in the pod. Some unfortunate orcas arenâ€™t even given the comfort of companionship at all and left in solitary tanks instead.

Mental Stimulation:
Opportunities for mental stimulation for orcas in the wild is vast; they are highly intelligent and demonstrate complex problem solving and abstract concept formation in their daily lives. They are engaged with hunting, socializing with their pod, and playing games each day. In a stark tank devoid of fish to chase and family members to socialize with, there is only training. Researchers believe that the lack of mental stimulation for captive whales causes high levels of stress, aggression, and mental illness.


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## Jacqui

ChiKat said:


> Jacqui said:
> 
> 
> 
> First I had to lookup the term of "snarky" and found this "snide," "catty," "snotty," or "bitchy."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, that's actually a word I've never used in real life  I've only seen it on the Internet. I did not mean to call you bitchy. Poor choice of words- I apologize!!
> eta: I actually looked that word up on my Macbook's dictionary before using it and it said "cutting" or "critical"  That's what I get for trying to use new lingo
Click to expand...


I can't recall what site my search button took me to for the meaning. It did also point out the meaning is different depending if your in the USA or the UK. It does sound kinda neat as it rolls off your tongue doesn't it?


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## ChiKat

Yes it does 
Apparently I should be more careful using that word  Lesson learned.


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## Candy

Jacqui I posted the websites of orca's living in captivity compared to the ones who have died on my previous post here. If your trying to imply that they are better off in captivity then they are in their natural habitat then I'm afraid that's just wrong. I wonder how many people actually know that there have been 5 Shamu's at Sea World (or are you like most people who think there's only one)? Tell me do you know who the last Shamu was? Can anyone answer that one? They just replace them when they die. They don't tell the public, they actually keep that information away from us because if we knew most people would actually think twice before supporting a facility like Sea World. Do you also know that Sea World knew there was something wrong with the whales the day that Trainer Dawn Brancheau was killed. That's why they canceled the show. That's why she was playing with Tilikum. She was entertaining the guests. Did Sea World tell the public that she drowned or did they actually tell them that he held her under for 45 minutes and they couldn't get to her? Did they tell what actually happened to her, no they didn't and they won't because this is what they do, they cover everything bad up so they don't loose money. So you see it's not just about the whales with me it's the organizations that need to stop putting human lives at risk just and innocent animals in harms way just so they can make a profit. 



Tom said:


> Jacqui and Dr. Westin, Where were you two during the last go around with this topic? I gave up trying with this crowd. I kept arguing for a while, but I can't argue with people's emotions. They feel how they feel and I was unable to change it with facts or first hand personal experience. They aren't going to change my opinion either, so I sort of understand.
> 
> Jacqui, you made some excellent points and I agree whole-heartedly. As soon as it warms up, my family will also be making a trip to Sea World, where my daughter will learn first hand about the beautiful wonders of the sea. I can't make her sit through 30 seconds of the discovery channel, but she'll watch live animals right in front of her indefinitely. Then she'll repeat back to you everything she learned about them.



When I read this I was extremely confused. What do you mean "you gave up on this crowd"? I do agree that you did keep arguing, and rather emotionally I might add. What facts did you post for us to learn anything from Tom? I went back through it and didn't find any facts or research from you. We posted ours and asked you time and time again to post any of yours but still didn't get any. I take it this is the thread that your talking about in this post? 

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-3-Killer-Whales-die-within-4-months-at-Sea-World?page=5 

I don't see any facts or research from you on captivity at all. I only see comments about the trainers from Sea World and that is not what we were talking about at the time of this thread. Now I've asked for more information and again it's not being provided....I can only assume that it's because you don't have any.


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## Kalina

Lolita the Killer Whale at The Miami Seaquarium is ill, apparently security is tight and there hasn't been a whale show in a couple of days. The park states she has in tooth infection and has been suffering with toothache, skeptics are saying it's something more serious... I truly hope Lolita is going to be ok, I would hope one day she be reunited with her family.
Considering Lolita's time spent in captivity, she has good dental health


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## Candy

Lolita Update #124 - Lolita may be seriously ill 
News, Views, Events	March 6, 2011

Dear Friends of Lolita,



Many of you have seen the disturbing reports from Miami in the past few days. The stadium has been closed for about a week now. Security at the Seaquarium has been very tight, with lights on at the whale tank all night long and a dozen or so vehicles parked nearby. As of 2 pm yesterday Lolita's blows could be heard, but observers have been removed so even that much information is hard to come by now.

The front office has told callers and the media that Lolita has a "toothache" and that the tank is being "repaired," so essentially no information is forthcoming from management.

Today, Sunday, at about 11 AM Shelby Proie posted a message on Facebook that a helicopter had landed inside the park grounds and four people got out. That's the kind of sketchy and mysterious details we're getting now, but indications are that Lolita may be ill. If the toothache story has any credibility, it could be serious because poor dentition can lead to systemic infections that could exhaust her compromised immune system, as described in:
Keto and Tilikum Express the Stress of Orca Captivity

By Drs Jeffrey Ventre and John Jett, both former trainers at SeaWorld, this is a landmark study into how captivity causes stress and early death for orcas in marine parks.

We are very grateful for the wonderful folks who are keeping an eye on Lolita in very difficult circumstances, and who have been campaigning and demanding that the Seaquarium allow her to retire in her home waters. They are too numerous to name here at this time. 

We'll of course update you all whenever we hear something definite. You can find the latest updates on the Orca Network Facebook page. 

Thanks to all,

Howard and Susan

Orca Network 




Lolita's bio:
ConnieRegan
Photo: Corrine Regan



Lolita was first named Tokitae when she was captured from her family in 1970. She has been on display at the Miami Seaquarium in Florida ever since. She is the last surviving orca of 45 members of the Southern Resident community that were brutally captured and delivered for display in marine parks between 1965 and 1973.

She was about four years old when she last saw her family. She still lives in a tank that is that is only 35x80 feet, illegal according to the Animal Welfare Act. Lolita is about 7,500 pounds, 21 feet long and her tank is 18-20 feet deep.

Lolita performs two shows a day but between shows she shows signs of boredom and depression. Her tank mate, Hugo, killed himself 30 years ago by hitting his head against the wall, Lolita hasn't seen another whale since!

When we say that we want to free Lolita, we mean we want to retire her safely, with professional care in a protected cove near her family's usual summer foraging areas, where she was born and raised.

The full proposal to retire Lolita is available

HERE

. There is no significant risk at any stage of this retirement proposal, but there is considerable risk in her remaining at the marine park in Miami.


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## Candy

In a new study, nearly a year in the making, former SeaWorld trainers Jeffrey Ventre, MD and John Jett, Ph.D, take us deep behind the scenes of Marine parks and their ability to provide environments adequate for keeping killer whales alive in captivity.
As former orca trainers, and now a medical doctor and biology professor respectively, Drs Ventre and Jett have a perspective that has not been heard in the intensifying debate about captivity for orcas:





http://theorcaproject.wordpress.com/2011/01/20/keto-tilikum-express-stress-of-orca-captivity/


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## B K

Do we know what there mortality rate is in the wild are there any environmental issues .


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## Kalina

B K: There will always be environmental issues while humans inhabit this earth unfortunately... :-(
As far as the mortality rate, there are older killer whales documented living in the wild, without the filtered tank water, without the drug laced fish and without veterinary care... Lolita is the last orca left from the famous Puget Sound round ups... Her family members who were caught alongside her have all died many, many years ago... I don't think any of them lasted 10 years in captivity (don't quote me on that, not done enough research yet) it's probably less than 10 years.
Lolita is a very special girl.. I believe she is waiting for freedom, something great is in store for this wonderful whale, she hasn't lived this long to die in a tank like the rest of them.

Here's an update: Activist are offering 3 mil for Lolita http://www.examiner.com/animal-advo...save-ailing-captive-whale?fb_comment=30509026

Will post this on Lolita thread too.


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## Candy

An Update on Lolita
March 7th, 2011 | Author: Blakeleigh

What a stressful weekend. Not knowing if your friend is alive and healthy? Thank you to all the dedicated individuals who waited outside (and inside) the Miami Seaquarium to provide updates as they happened. Unfortunately, the MSQ is keeping everyone outside in the dark when it comes to the health of their â€œmost valuedâ€ animal. According to a recent report (HERE) from a local activist at Earthrace Conservation â€“ Miami, lights have been on in her stadium at night and it appears that she is under 24/7 watch. If she is truly ill, yet responding well to antibiotics as MSQâ€™s recording claims, then why all the secrecy?
Lolita Stadium at Night

Photo Courtesy of an Anonymous ECO Warrior, 12AM, 3/6/11

Around 2PM yesterday, a chopper landed at the MSQ. Eyewitnesses saw 4 men with black backpacks rush towards the Whale Stadium. The chopper took off almost a minute later.

When I contacted CBS to inquire about what was really happening at the MSQ, I was informed that they had an unconfirmed drowning of 3 children in or near the park and police were on route. They had no information on the helicopter. They advised a reporter was on route to the scene.

I contacted MSQ directly and after waiting for roughly 5 minutes on hold, my call was finally answered. I asked about the chopper and reports of children drowning. I was informed that both were untrue. I advised that there were eyewitnesses who saw the chopper landing. I was then put on hold and my call was answered by a manager at the aquarium. The manager assured me that no chopper had landed and no children had drowned. When I asked how Lolita was doing, she advised she was transferring me to a hotline to explain her health condition.

MSQ denies that a chopper ever landed. Yet here is the proof:
MSQ Helicopter Landing 3/6/11

Photo Courtesy of Chris Lagergren, 3/6/11

The questions remain the same. Why was this chopper landing at MSQ? Who were the men who jumped out of it from? What are they there for? Are they Sea World vets? Why is MSQ lying about this? Is she really sick? Is she being sold/transferred? Why is Mr. Hertz (owner of MSQ) turning down the proposal of her retirement (A draft of her retirement proposal can be found on the Orca Networkâ€™s site HERE)?

Mr. Hertz has been offered $3,000,000 for her to be retired from performing and released to what experts say is the most humane home for her (See HERE). She was only purchased for a mere $6,000 and her life insurance is only worth $1,000,000. Next to Corky II, she is the oldest captive orca, living in the oldest/dilapidated tank in the United States. Please Mr. Hertz, have some compassion! If she is very sick, she will receive the best veterinary care through the Orca Network and other outlets. If she is sicker than you are claiming and does die of this illness, at least it will be in her native home, with her family, and where she truly belongs.

Someone posted the picture of the helicopter that landed at the Seaquarium, but it won't come out in this post, sorry.


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## Kalina

For those interested, another SW trainer interview part 2 released today.

http://theorcaproject.wordpress.com...view-former-seaworld-trainer-samantha-berg-2/

Last month, The Orca Project was fortunate to have spent some time with Samantha Berg, M.Ac., L.Ac., Dipl.Ac., a former SeaWorld animal trainer, for an information-packed interview where we discussed the hidden culture of orca trainer safety, her time at SeaWorld Orlando, working alongside belugas and killer whales as well as Tilikumâ€™s arrival in Orlando. Samantha shared her experiences of viewing wild beluga whales along the Alaskan coast and also explored the topic of polar bears, both in captivity and in the wild. If you missed Part 1, you can see it HERE.

Today, Samantha joins us for Part 2 where weâ€™ll take a look into SeaWorldâ€™s secretive breeding program and uncover the â€œeducationalâ€ value of marine mammals on display. Weâ€™ll also go into the details of why SeaWorldâ€™s proposed safety improvements will not work, and take an explosive, in-depth look at what happened the day of Dawn Brancheauâ€™s tragic death. This is an interview you will not want to miss!

TOP: Welcome back to part 2 of our interview with former SeaWorld Trainer, Samantha Berg. Itâ€™s nice to talk with you again, Samantha. Last month, we touched on several topics, including your experiences of working with marine mammals at SeaWorld and your perspective on wildlife up in Alaska. We thank you for your insight! Today weâ€™d like to dig a little deeper into SeaWorldâ€™s proposed safety improvements as well as their â€œeducationalâ€ programs. And later, weâ€™ll take a close look at what happened on the day of Dawn Brancheauâ€™s tragic death. But first, weâ€™d like to talk a little bit about SeaWorldâ€™s breeding program. As we know, Tilikum has become the primary breeding stud for orcas in captivity. With the relatively small number of killer whales housed in marine parks, itâ€™s alarming that Tilikumâ€™s genes are so prominent in the population. Thanks to the help of our friend Wendy Cooke, weâ€™ve been able reconstruct Tilikumâ€™s family tree: CLICK LINK ABOVE FOR FAMILY TREE.

TOP: At The Orca Project, we are aware that your undergraduate training at Cornell University was in animal sciences. Can you comment on the ethics and continued use of Tilikum as a breeding stud for SeaWorld?

SAM: Sure. At Cornell University, I learned quite a bit about the meat and dairy cattle industries while studying animal sciences.

The bull cattle being used as breeding studs had to go through years of genetic testing to be accepted into the breeding program. I believe this is standard practice in any reputable breeding program for animals such as horses or dogs.

There are two parts to any successful breeding program. The first is the collections and insemination aspect. The second, more important part is thorough genetic testing through multiple generations to ensure that the semen being used is not passing on unwanted traits or genetic defects to future animals.

(You can read more about this topic HERE from The Orca Project)

Since SW is limited by the small number of captive male orcas in its collection, itâ€™s not like any genetic testing they could do would be meaningful. They have the whales they have, and they are forced to use those whales for breeding. The whole point of a legitimate breeding program is not just to make MORE animals, but to strengthen and diversify the gene pool, thus producing animals that are more resilient, more resistant to disease, and which display the specific kinds of traits that are considered to be desirable.

For dairy cattle, that might be greater milk production or percentage of butter fat in the milk. For dogs it might be temperament, speed or agility, smell acuity etc. For animals intended to live their lives in captivity, youâ€™d think the breeders would be concerned about the temperament and health of the whales in their breeding pool.

Tilikum has sired many calves that either died prematurely, or ended up having health issues. In two cases, Tilikumâ€™s sperm resulted in stillborn calves that caused their mothers to die as well. Not only that, but Tilikum has also clearly demonstrated aggression towards humans on at least 3 occasions that resulted in death.

Speaking of aggression, there is one whale in the SeaWorld collection that is related to both Tilikum and Keto, the Loro Parque whale who killed Alexis. Kohannaâ€™s recent calf, Adan, is Ketoâ€™s son and Tilikumâ€™s grandson.

Why would anyone consider breeding an animal that has demonstrated extreme aggression towards humans on numerous occasions? Especially when they know without a doubt that this animalâ€™s progeny will likely continue to interact with humans?

SeaWorld is producing more whales, but thereâ€™s no regard for the health of the whales that they are creating or for the safety of the trainers that will interact with those whales.

Fourteen out of twenty-five whales living in SeaWorldâ€™s collection (56%!) are currently carrying Tilikumâ€™s genes. I think you could say that SeaWorld has created more of an â€œinbreeding programâ€ which jeopardizes the health of their population and their human trainers.

In my opinion, continuing to breed Tilikum is unethical based upon his known aggression towards humans, the number of stillborns he has produced, the two breeding moms that have died giving birth to his calves, and the lack of genetic diversity it perpetuates in the SeaWorld gene pool. Not only is it unethical, it is down right irresponsible. No reputable breeding program in any other animal industry would continue to use this animal as their main breeder considering this information.

TOP: Sam, it is known that youâ€™ve provided at least one written statement to OSHA regarding Sea Worldâ€™s intention to use â€œspare airâ€ as a new safety measure. Can you briefly tell us what spare air is, and why SeaWorld would be looking into using this technology? Also, explain briefly why it wouldnâ€™t work.

SAM: â€œSpare Airâ€ is a term that refers to gear that could be given to trainers to give them access to additional air (oxygen) to prevent them from drowning in the event they are trapped in a pool underwater â€“ either due to an accident (hitting their head and falling in a pool) or due to an animal actively preventing a trainer from exiting the water, as in Keltie, Dawnâ€™s and Alexisâ€™ cases.

Here is a summary of why this technology is impractical for SeaWorld orca trainers:

1. Spare air requires trainers to carry additional equipment and gear which could give the whales something else to grab or bite.

2. At Shamu Stadium in Orlando, the pressure at the bottom of the main show pool is double the pressure at the surface. A trainer taking a breath of compressed air at the bottom of the pool could be at risk of a lung over-expansion injury if a whale decided to take them rapidly to the surface without giving the trainer enough time to exhale. So, spare air could actually kill a trainer instead of save their lives in the event of an attack.

3. The sound of the equipment could agitate or excite the whales, causing unpredictable behavior in an already unstable situation.

4. Killer whale attacks are often fast and violent. Although Keltieâ€™s official cause of death was hypothermia and drowning, the autopsy reports from Alex and Dawn clearly show massive amounts of physical trauma. Therefore, spare air would not have saved Alex or Dawn, and spare air wouldnâ€™t do anything for hypothermia either.

5. In Keltieâ€™s situation, trainers tried to throw her a life ring and she couldnâ€™t get to it because the whales kept her away. I believe that trainers tried to throw Dawn a spare air canister as she resurfaced following the initial take-downâ€¦ but they were unsuccessful. But even if all three trainers went in the water with scuba gear on or with a smaller spare air canister with mouth piece and regulator already on their person, they likely wouldnâ€™t have been able to access it. View any of the YouTube videos that show the speed and violence of a killer whale attack, and it quickly becomes obvious that the trainer is able to do very little that the whale doesnâ€™t want them to do.

6. Captive whales have been known to ingest objects in the pool either accidentally or intentionally. Kanduke, a male killer whale at SeaWorld had a navigation buoy in his stomach which was found after his death. Nami, the Japanese killer whale who recently died in January 2011, was found to have 180 lbs of rocks in her stomach. Spare air equipment could endanger the lives of the whales if they swallowed a tank or a hose. CLICK LINK ABOVE FOR VIDEO OF SW TRAINER BEING ATTACKED BY KILLER WHALE, FORTUNATELY HE IS ABLE TO CALM WHALE DOWN.

TOP: Sam, you once told us that your biggest regret at SeaWorld was presenting false information to the young kids that came to SW for education shows or with their families. Can you expand on that comment?

SAM: As I said before, I know a lot more about killer whales in captivity and killer whales in the wild than I did when I worked at SeaWorld. Part of my job at SeaWorld was to narrate â€œeducationalâ€ shows for school children visiting the park.

The educational shows differed from the regular shows in that there was a little less spectacular behavior (trainers jumping off of whales) and more time spent teaching children about whale anatomy, habitat and â€œfun factsâ€ such as â€œhow many pounds of fish does Shamu eat in one day?â€

The facts I was trained to present to the children were made up of only the biased information that SeaWorld provided. So, if someone wanted to know why one of the killer whaleâ€™s dorsal fins was bent, I would be instructed to reply that killer whale dorsal fins are often bent in the wild. Of course we now know that some dorsal bending does occur in the wild, but complete dorsal collapse (as discussed in a recent paper published by former trainers Drs. John Jett & Jeffrey Ventre) is nearly exclusive to captivity.

The statistics I was told to provide about the lifespan of captive killer whales vs. wild killer whales were also false. (Again, see John and Jeffâ€™s paper for more on this topic)

Even more ironically, after Dawn was killed, I was asked to speak at a local high school about what happened at SeaWorld, and I was only able to tell the children what I knew from when I worked there. I didnâ€™t do any independent research prior to giving that talk, because I assumed the information I had from SeaWorld was accurate. This assumption turned out not to be a grave misjudgment on my part. I wish I could go back and tell those kids the truth.

To learn more about this topic itâ€™s worth reading an interview by Frontline with Susan Davis, author of â€œSpectacular Nature: Corporate Culture and the SeaWorld Experienceâ€. Davis details how every aspect of SeaWorld parks from landscape to concessions to educational material is carefully researched and commercialized to present just the message the company wants to present. Davis suggests that the â€œeducationâ€ that one might receive from one of SeaWorldâ€™s shows is equivalent or possibly not as good as the average library book targeted for third graders.

SeaWorldâ€™s â€œeducationalâ€ programs are nothing more than a thin veil behind which all of the less savory aspects of the captive marine mammal industry can be found hiding. I actually feel a fair amount of shame when I think about how much misinformation I participated in disseminating over my time at SeaWorld. My hope is that I can use the knowledge that Iâ€™ve gained since that time to set the record straight.

TOP: Sam, at The Orca Project, we heard rumors of a â€œhuge demonstrationâ€ that was being planned on the anniversary of Dawn Brancheauâ€™s tragic death. Apparently some folks from Jacksonville were planning on coming to SW dressed in wet suits with blonde ponytail wigs. Did you hear of these plans?

SAM: Yes I did.

TOP: Although we understand the message, what does this say about the publicâ€™s general understanding of how Dawn was pulled into the water? What are your thoughts on this?

SAM: When Dawn was killed, SeaWorldâ€™s first report to the news media and the public was that a trainer had slipped or fell into the pool and drowned. Only later, after witnesses on CNN and various local outlets began to speak out, did the story evolve. The media and general public are still not informed of what I, and the other former trainers, regard as the truth.

SAM: Dawnâ€™s safety spotter, Jan Topoleski, reported to the Orange Country Sheriffâ€™s department that he saw Dawnâ€™s hair floating on the water into Tilikumâ€™s mouth. However, witness reports of the initial takedown raise a question of whether Jan was watching closely, and saw it. Witnesses have also reported that he lost valuable seconds by not sounding the pool alarm immediately. So there is reason to wonder how clearly Jan saw the grab, if at all.

SAM: I, along with 5 other former SeaWorld trainers, have reviewed the video evidence of Dawnâ€™s last moments with Tilikum. We all agree the most likely explanation is that Tilikum actually had Dawnâ€™s arm in his mouth before he rolled and took her underwater. So, it was an arm grab and not a ponytail grab. CLICK LINK TO ARTICLE FOR PHOTOGRAPHS OF DAWN WITH TILIKUM SECONDS BEFORE THE INCIDENT.

TOP: So, why does SeaWorld still promote the â€œPony Tail Theoryâ€?

SAM: There are several reasons why making this distinction is important to SeaWorld:

1. It gives SeaWorld an action they can take to remedy the situation: No female trainers are allowed to wear their hair down â€“ hair must be kept in a bun or cut short. This gives the appearance that SeaWorld is effectively addressing the problem and mitigating the dangers of working with Tilikum and all other orcas.

2. A ponytail grab seems less intentional. People who donâ€™t know anything about killer whales and how they feed in the wild could make the assumption that Tilikum didnâ€™t actually INTEND to grab Dawn, but somehow the accident of her ponytail drifting in his mouth or touching his nose stirred up some kind of instinctual feeding behavior and he grabbed her. SeaWorld is trying to confound the issue by suggesting a reflex type â€œfeeding frenzyâ€ more akin to sharks, not whales.

3. The ponytail theory allows SeaWorld to blame Dawn for being careless and letting her hair drift in his mouth. However, anyone who has worked with killer whales can review the video of Dawnâ€™s last session with Tilikum â€“ and it will become more obvious that the answer as to what happened is more complicated than a simple, instinctual behavior.

4. Finally, if Dawn was grabbed by her ponytail, then it would be reasonable to assume that she could have died right away due to a broken neck from the violence of being whipped around by her head. However, witness statements indicate that Dawn re-surfaced at least once following the initial take-down and that she was likely alive for at least 1- 1/2 minutes into the attack. Thus the scalping that is reported in the MEâ€™s report (which is also the supposed evidence FOR the ponytail grab) probably occurred AFTER Dawn died, not before. I think the idea that Dawn was alive and fighting for her life for this amount of time is likely an image that SW does not want to have people contemplating.

TOP: Based on what we know from the evidence (including witness statements) and after reviewing the video of Dawnâ€™s final interaction with Tilikum, in your opinion, what is the more likely scenario that triggered the attack?

SAM: In the video from the Dine with Shamu show, Tilikum is performing well in the session to start off, but then Dawn â€œlosesâ€ his attention and he starts giving her mediocre responses to her requests. (To view a second by second transcript of Dawnâ€™s last session with Tili, click â€œHEREâ€ )

For some reason, Dawn continued to work a session with an animal that was not responding well and with minimal food (fish) at her disposal. There is reasonable speculation that VIPâ€™s were in the park that day and itâ€™s possible they viewed the regular Shamu Show â€œBelieveâ€ just prior to the â€œDine with Shamuâ€ show. The â€œBelieveâ€ show was interrupted due to social disturbances between the whales. While this social unrest likely played a role in agitating Tilikum, the presence of VIPâ€™s could be an explanation as to why an experienced trainer like Dawn didnâ€™t give him a break. (*see Note 1 below re: VIPâ€™s)

Ultimately, Dawn did put herself in a vulnerable position with Tilikum, but she (and others) had likely done this hundreds of times before with managementâ€™s blessing as can be seen in the following photos: WEBSITE LINK PROVIDES MULTIPLE PHOTOGRAPHS OF MULTIPLE TRAINERS GETTING UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL WITH TILIKUM.

SAM: This time Tilikum decided that pulling Dawn in the water with him was more rewarding than anything else that was going on. Keep in mind that we now know Tilikum had an elevated white blood cell count when he pulled her in, and may not have felt well.

In the final image of Dawn and Tilikumâ€™s interaction before the camera shuts off, it appears that her arm is already in Tilikumâ€™s mouth. He has probably closed down on her arm while she was rubbing his tongue â€“ a behavior known as â€œtongue tactileâ€. But instead of calling out to the spotter, she is quietly giving him a â€œneutral responseâ€ hoping that Tilikum will open his mouth and let go. Jan Topoleski likely didnâ€™t see that this was happening and, in the end, possibly offered a story that sounded plausible so it would not appear that he wasnâ€™t paying attention.

TOP: In a little more than a year, at least 5 orcas have died in captivityâ€¦ (4 at SeaWorld parks, including the stillborn calf of Taima) along with 2 young trainers. Do you see anything positive that may come out of all of this tragedy?

SAM: Yes. Since Dawnâ€™s death last year, the topic of killer whales in captivity has been in the media more frequently than at any other time I can remember. Already 7 ex-SeaWorld trainers have stepped forward to highlight the brutality, isolation, over-breeding and other wrongs that were perpetrated on these animals for the sake of commercialized entertainment. Many more ex-trainers will likely come forward, and we welcome them (*see note 1 below), as the accumulated evidence demonstrates beyond a doubt that these magnificent, intelligent and highly social animals do not belong in tanks for the purpose of entertaining people.

I think that the recent deaths and tragedies have started a chain of events that will be viewed from some vantage point in the future as a kind of â€œRosa Parks momentâ€ for killer whales.

SAM: I recently saw a preview of Stan Minasianâ€™s movie, â€œA Fall From Freedomâ€, which examines the captive killer whale industry (**see Note 2 below for more info). In the movie, Ric Oâ€™Barry, former animal trainer for the television show Flipper, is interviewed about how he would like to see marine parks evolve and change in the future. Oâ€™Barry points out that the Monterey Bay Aquarium has 1.8 million visitors per year and manages to provide a highly educational experience for its guests without having any live whales on display. Instead, the aquarium has life sized models of many different types of whales.

In the interview, Oâ€™Barry also references the 1997-1998 rehabilitation of a sick grey whale at SeaWorld of San Diego. People came from everywhere to view and support SeaWorldâ€™s efforts in treating AND releasing an animal back to the wild. This generated plenty of income for the park. SeaWorld and other marine parks have the potential to do a great service by helping to rescue, rehabilitate and return animals back to their natural environment.

In my opinion, the only conclusion that can be drawn from the overwhelming amount of evidence that has been collected here at The Orca Project and all over the internet, is this: We must stop capturing more killer whales, stop breeding killer whales in captivity, work to release any animals that are healthy enough to survive on their own, and retire unhealthy, un-releasable animals (like Tilikum) to sea pens where they can live out their life with their companions in a much less stressful environment.


----------



## Isa

Very interesting (very sad also  )article, thanks for sharing. Do you know what happened to Tilikum? I guess he is still living all alone in a small pool ? Human beings would do anything for money, that is very unaceptable and heart breaking!


----------



## Kalina

Isa, that particular website also has a great article on Tilikum's life after Dawn... You'd be very surprised to see how he's being treated by his very caring multimillion dollar corp owners. There's plenty of video footage over a 20 hour period of him being left alone, in isolation, floating on the surface, lifeless (SW refer to his behavior as sleeping...lol) Anyone who has a clue about Orcas knows, this isn't sleeping.... It's called "Tilikums Lonely Life" or something like that, i will go get the link for you. Here it is: http://theorcaproject.wordpress.com/2010/09/03/seeing-is-believing-tilikums-lonely-life-after-dawn/

Even Naomi Rose from HSUS refers to Tilkum as "The Loneliest Whale in the World".
It's very sad but very enlightening as to the protocol of SW, Tilikum sure isn't happy with the way he has to live his life.


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## Isa

Thanks for the link.
That is so sad, how can it be legal is what I do not understand


----------



## Kalina

I know, it's just horrible... I hope one day Tilikum can be retired to a sea pen, he'll never be releasable, but at least they should give him some sort of normalcy for his species.


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## onarock

Wow! You keep Killer Whales up there on that ranch. Man, you got everything up there. Forget the pics of you flying through the air on that dirt bike (really cool BTW). I want to see pics of you in one of those fullsuits standing on a whales nose as it launches you 20' in the air... that would be awesome!



Tom said:


> They feel how they feel and I was unable to change it with facts or first hand personal experience.


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## John

i say put the stupid humans back in the water,my money is on the whales. GO WHALES!!


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## TylerStewart

Candy - Let me know when you guys are able to get less people attending SeaWorld. I'd love to know when the crowds were smaller so I could pack up and take my family. The crowds are a huge limiting factor, and if a few people stay home to "save the planet," it makes SeaWorld a much more attractive weekend destination, at least for me. 



Kalina said:


> There will always be environmental issues while humans inhabit this earth unfortunately... :-(



Solution? Anyone who feels guilty for breathing air while violently stealing this precious air from mother earth can blame themselves. Sell your house and car, move to a small island via canoe, and leave the rest of us alone. 

It's nice to see that Tom and I aren't the only ones arguing the point on this topic like it seemed last time it came up. Nice to have you back, Candy. I can't wait to see photos of the 1 acre pen you said you were building for the cherryheads so they could live in a "natural enclosure." That must cost a lot to landscape, with the river and all. Until you have this done, give up the killer whale fight. They're no more miserable than your tortoises are.


----------



## Candy

Tyler again you have nothing to contribute to the facts, but that doesn't surprise me. Why don't you focus on our government? Oh, don't bother, if I remember correctly you didn't have any facts on that one either.  You had nothing in the first thread, unless I missed it (which I doubt very much), but just in case you'd like to copy any or all of the information that you and Tom supposedly posted that could be taken as a positive to keeping Killer Whales in captivity please copy and paste so we all can be enlighten by your so called wisdom. It figures that you have no idea how much money Sea World has lost since the death of Dawn Brancheau. Why don't you look it up, it's not hard. Or maybe it's just too much fun for you to continue to be ignorant where these parks and these trainers are concerned. I choose not to be so I actually read articles and research papers and listen to people who actually know something about the parks. Can I assume that you do not? Now if you would like to stop complaining and making sarcastic comments and actually learn something valuable then take a look at this video and someone that actually would be able to speak on behalf of the trainers at Sea World. Not just someone who claims to know.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4337596


----------



## B K

TylerStewart said:


> Candy - Let me know when you guys are able to get less people attending SeaWorld. I'd love to know when the crowds were smaller so I could pack up and take my family. The crowds are a huge limiting factor, and if a few people stay home to "save the planet," it makes SeaWorld a much more attractive weekend destination, at least for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Kalina said:
> 
> 
> 
> There will always be environmental issues while humans inhabit this earth unfortunately... :-(
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Solution? Anyone who feels guilty for breathing air while violently stealing this precious air from mother earth can blame themselves. Sell your house and car, move to a small island via canoe, and leave the rest of us alone.
> 
> It's nice to see that Tom and I aren't the only ones arguing the point on this topic like it seemed last time it came up. Nice to have you back, Candy. I can't wait to see photos of the 1 acre pen you said you were building for the cherryheads so they could live in a "natural enclosure." That must cost a lot to landscape, with the river and all. Until you have this done, give up the killer whale fight. They're no more miserable than your tortoises are.
Click to expand...


We had yearly passes there when I lived in Florida.


----------



## ChiKat

TylerStewart said:


> They're no more miserable than your tortoises are.



Several people on the forum feel that their tortoises are THRIVING in captivity- Tom being one of them. [See Thriving VS. Surviving]
I have not heard one sane person state that they truly believe orcas are thriving in captivity.
We have concrete facts stating reasons why orcas are better off in their natural habitat. I have read nothing to the contrary- only people saying, "well I'm still going to SeaWorld!" 

And since no one addressed my last post, I will quote myself 



ChiKat said:


> I wasnâ€™t even going to TOUCH the orca/tortoise comparison, but Iâ€™ll go with it.
> 
> People here are always preaching about keeping tortoises in optimal conditions- as naturally as possible, while allowing them to grow and thrive.
> Spacious enclosures, natural sunlight, allowing them to graze like they do in the wild, living outside as much as possible, given a diet that they might find in the wild, HOT and HUMID, etc.
> The unnatural things that some of us do for our tortoises, such as feeding them generous portions every day, help them thrive, if anything.
> 
> What happens when tortoises are kept DRY in tiny enclosures, on the wrong substrate, fed an unnatural and unhealthy diet, played with and handled constantly, etc.
> You get stressed-out, sickly tortoises with shortened lifespans.
> But we know better!
> 
> What happens when orcas are confined to small, acoustically-dead, concrete enclosures; separated from their family; fed an unnatural diet of dead fish; forced to perform tricks?
> You get stressed-out, sickly orcas with shortened lifespans.
> 
> I still would not agree with keeping orcas in captivity, even if they were kept in more natural conditions where they could thrive and act like NORMAL orcas, but I might not be as upset about it.


----------



## Kalina

TylerStewart said:


> Candy - Let me know when you guys are able to get less people attending SeaWorld. I'd love to know when the crowds were smaller so I could pack up and take my family. The crowds are a huge limiting factor, and if a few people stay home to "save the planet," it makes SeaWorld a much more attractive weekend destination, at least for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Kalina said:
> 
> 
> 
> There will always be environmental issues while humans inhabit this earth unfortunately... :-(
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Solution? Anyone who feels guilty for breathing air while violently stealing this precious air from mother earth can blame themselves. Sell your house and car, move to a small island via canoe, and leave the rest of us alone.
> 
> It's nice to see that Tom and I aren't the only ones arguing the point on this topic like it seemed last time it came up. Nice to have you back, Candy. I can't wait to see photos of the 1 acre pen you said you were building for the cherryheads so they could live in a "natural enclosure." That must cost a lot to landscape, with the river and all. Until you have this done, give up the killer whale fight. They're no more miserable than your tortoises are.
Click to expand...


SW has lost customers, they're actually gaining debt now, look it up.

Nobody feels guilty for breathing air? What does people breathing have to do with it??
Or am I lost trying to make sense of your humor??


----------



## B K

What is there mortality rate in the wild.Not how long they can live but the average life span and the rate of deaths in there pods.


----------



## Kalina

The lifespan of wild females averages 50 years, with a maximum of 80â€“90 years, with the exception of "Granny".
Males usually live into their 40s, with the exception of "Old Tom". Captive killer whale lifespans are typically significantly shorter, on average only living into their 20s with the exception of Lolita and Corky.

Captivity usually bears little resemblance to wild habitat, and captive whales' social groups are foreign to those found in the wild. Critics claim that captive life is stressful due to these factors and the requirement to perform circus tricks that are not part of wild killer whale behavior.


----------



## Jacqui

WARNING!


This thread is about to be shut down. This is NOT the debate section, but that is where this entire thread should be going.


----------



## Isa

This thread is very interesting for a lot of us, but unfortunatly some people made it into a debate. In my opinion, if you do not care about this cause (about orcas and dolphins kept in captivity) why put your 2 cents?! I like it when Kalina puts update on what is happening and I am sure I am not the only one .


----------



## Yvonne G

Personally, I'm an ostrich. I don't want to know about whales and dolphins and their plight, so I choose to not read this thread and others like it. May I suggest to Tyler and Onarock and anyone else who doesn't share the OP's views on the subject to just click past the thread and don't read it.


----------



## TylerStewart

ChiKat said:


> Several people on the forum feel that their tortoises are THRIVING in captivity- Tom being one of them. [See Thriving VS. Surviving]



Oh, I agree, I think my tortoises are thriving too. They reproduce, which by a whale's standard is thriving, right? Do the whales not reproduce at Sea World? 

I find it silly that Candy acts like she's "researching" when all she is doing is searching Google for an argument that agrees with what she already thinks. If someone wanted to find it, there's plenty of info out there about the whales doing well there. I don't have the time or the enthisiasm nor do I care enough about this topic to provide you all with more information that apparently I am supposed to be providing, but a simple search will contradict every opinion made on this topic, on both sides. Here's an idea, [GASP] Use common sense. I think it's a hard argument to make about how depressed the whales are in captivity when they're reproducing. 

The life expectancy argument is full of holes. Nobody knows what percentage of baby whales make it to adulthood. I would guess that a baby whale has a much better chance of survival at Sea World than it does in the wild. With many, many species, a tiny percentage of them make it to adult size (tortoises are a perfect example). I doubt whales are any different.


----------



## Jacqui

Isa said:


> This thread is very interesting for a lot of us, but unfortunatly some people made it into a debate. In my opinion, if you do not care about this cause (about orcas and dolphins kept in captivity) why put your 2 cents?! I like it when Kalina puts update on what is happening and I am sure I am not the only one .



Isa, I can tell you why I did, I simply got tired of the posting of information from other activist sites, the biased information given in them, and the constant negative things being said about SW for one. Following with your thoughts on why put in your two cents worth, Isa if I posted to somebody that they should keep their Hermanns in a bowl of water for a we without letting them get out of the water at all, would you just ignore it or would you put your two cents worth in?





TylerStewart said:


> The life expectancy argument is full of holes. Nobody knows what percentage of baby whales make it to adulthood. I would guess that a baby whale has a much better chance of survival at Sea World than it does in the wild. With many, many species, a tiny percentage of them make it to adult size (tortoises are a perfect example). I doubt whales are any different.



Thank you for this part. That is why I asked what is the life expectancy of wild compared to captivity, because I too think they would be "safer" in captivity, thus have a longer life then average in the wild, just not as natural of one... just like our tortoises.

Please tho, stay away from the personal comments about other members.


----------



## Kalina

Stop Debating, we're not allowed to do that!!! Just post informational facts.

You know what, it's funny how people react to things... I can go right back to another thread of the same nature where Candy is repeatedly asking for something, anything that is positive regarding captivity of marine mammals, still to this day nobody has posted a darn thing, not one thing... However, they have been to this thread where people are happily posting info to one another (because afterall, the people posting on this particular thread share the same interest)... Then, you get a few people who don't agree with any of this info, come on the thread with their "humor" to stir the pot!!!... Then, the whole thread then comes under the big red letters "WARNING" because those who don't agree with any info posted here was bored with talking about tortoises and decided to rant here... Correct me if I'm wrong but, last time i looked we had freedom of speech? Isn't it the people who never come on this thread usually that are debating?


----------



## Jacqui

Kalina said:


> Stop Debating, we're not allowed to do that!!! Just post informational facts.



Okay....

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/22/tech/main6890126.shtml

http://www.newser.com/story/112549/new-zealand-euthanizes-48-beached-whales.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110204/ap_on_re_as/as_new_zealand_whale_stranding


Wow! Look at how many died in just those few hours. No where do I see that many lives lost while in captivity in just a few days time....

Those are informational facts, life in the wild can be just as deadly. Perhaps if they had captured those whales, they might still be alive right now and helping us to learn how to help them survive better in the wild, instead of dead.


----------



## Kalina

Are you a moderator for this site?


----------



## Isa

Jacqui said:


> Isa said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread is very interesting for a lot of us, but unfortunatly some people made it into a debate. In my opinion, if you do not care about this cause (about orcas and dolphins kept in captivity) why put your 2 cents?! I like it when Kalina puts update on what is happening and I am sure I am not the only one .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isa, I can tell you why I did, I simply got tired of the posting of information from other activist sites, the biased information given in them, and the constant negative things being said about SW for one. Following with your thoughts on why put in your two cents worth, Isa if I posted to somebody that they should keep their Hermanns in a bowl of water for a we without letting them get out of the water at all, would you just ignore it or would you put your two cents worth in?
Click to expand...


Jacqui, my message was not for you. I really think that everyone has the right to have an opinion. When I said "why put your 2 cents" I was talking about some people who insults other members or just make fun of some member's opinion. I would not like the thread to become a debate because I like reading the info Kalina post and I believe in this cause. 

To answer your question if you would say that about Hermanns, I would not be the only one putting my 2 cents, Hermy and Popcorn would come in too  lol.


----------



## Kalina

You want me to compare the number of deaths of 80 pilot whales that beached themselves, (when there's thousands of them in the wild) to the deaths of Orcas in captivity? Last year SW had a few in a short time period, Couple of months? Can't remember, wasn't it 4 orca deaths when they own like 27 of them? Thousands of Pilot whales-80 beached... Twenty something captive Orcas, 4 deaths, do the math. No one is arguing that Orcas don't die in the wild, everything dies... But to think they survive longer in captivity is wrong. They suffer stress related illness all the time.


----------



## Jacqui

Kalina said:


> Isn't it the people who never come on this thread usually that are debating?



Just clarifying...

If your including me, I have read this thread from the beginning. Are you saying only folks who have posted from day 1 are allowed to become active in this thread?


----------



## Isa

Jacqui said:


> WARNING!
> 
> 
> This thread is about to be shut down. This is NOT the debate section, but that is where this entire thread should be going.



Pleaseee, can we all take the warning seriously and stop the debate.


----------



## Jacqui

Kalina said:


> You want me to compare the number of deaths of 80 pilot whales that beached themselves, (when there's thousands of them in the wild) to the deaths of Orcas in captivity? Last year SW had a few in a short time period, Couple of months? Can't remember, wasn't it 4 orca deaths when they own like 27 of them? Thousands of Pilot whales-80 beached... Twenty something captive Orcas, 4 deaths, do the math. No one is arguing that Orcas don't die in the wild, everything dies... But to think they survive longer in captivity is wrong. They suffer stress related illness all the time.



Kalina, if I say 14 wild whales dies last night due to tooth issues, can you prove me wrong? No you can't, no more then you can tell me how many whales there are currently in the wild. Nor can you tell me last year how many whales were born in the wild and how many of those whales are alive today. I used the above information to show how some whales have died recently. I can't show or prove numbers on the wild ones, because they aren't nice enough to send up death notices. They simply just disappear and are never noticed. 





Isa said:


> Jacqui said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isa said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread is very interesting for a lot of us, but unfortunatly some people made it into a debate. In my opinion, if you do not care about this cause (about orcas and dolphins kept in captivity) why put your 2 cents?! I like it when Kalina puts update on what is happening and I am sure I am not the only one .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isa, I can tell you why I did, I simply got tired of the posting of information from other activist sites, the biased information given in them, and the constant negative things being said about SW for one. Following with your thoughts on why put in your two cents worth, Isa if I posted to somebody that they should keep their Hermanns in a bowl of water for a we without letting them get out of the water at all, would you just ignore it or would you put your two cents worth in?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Jacqui, my message was not for you. I really think that everyone has the right to have an opinion. When I said "why put your 2 cents" I was talking about some people who insults other members or just make fun of some member's opinion. I would not like the thread to become a debate because I like reading the info Kalina post and I believe in this cause.
> 
> To answer your question if you would say that about Hermanns, I would not be the only one putting my 2 cents, Hermy and Popcorn would come in too  lol.
Click to expand...


See you answered your own question about why folks can't just keep passing over this thread.


----------



## Kalina

No not saying that at all, I'm saying we were all happy just posting info for one another then all of a sudden a few people who say they have no interest in this topic or haven't got the time to talk/debate/research or take part is discussion come on here and start with their "Humor", sarcastic remarks, name calling...etc, but yet the people who have been happily posting info here are reading the "warning" posts left by you? So if I go on a tortoise thread running my mouth, you'll close that one too right?


----------



## Jacqui

Kalina said:


> No not saying that at all, I'm saying we were all happy just posting info for one another then all of a sudden a few people who say they have no interest in this topic or haven't got the time to talk/debate/research or take part is discussion come on here and start with their "Humor", sarcastic remarks, name calling...etc, but yet the people who have been happily posting info here are reading the "warning" posts left by you? So if I go on a tortoise thread running my mouth, you'll close that one too right?



If you start name calling and such on ANY thread, yes you will be warned, as I did here. We seldom close threads without first giving several warnings. We try to get discussions going again WITHOUT the personal remarks made against each other.


----------



## Isa

Jacqui said:


> Kalina said:
> 
> 
> 
> You want me to compare the number of deaths of 80 pilot whales that beached themselves, (when there's thousands of them in the wild) to the deaths of Orcas in captivity? Last year SW had a few in a short time period, Couple of months? Can't remember, wasn't it 4 orca deaths when they own like 27 of them? Thousands of Pilot whales-80 beached... Twenty something captive Orcas, 4 deaths, do the math. No one is arguing that Orcas don't die in the wild, everything dies... But to think they survive longer in captivity is wrong. They suffer stress related illness all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kalina, if I say 14 wild whales dies last night due to tooth issues, can you prove me wrong? No you can't, no more then you can tell me how many whales there are currently in the wild. Nor can you tell me last year how many whales were born in the wild and how many of those whales are alive today. I used the above information to show how some whales have died recently. I can't show or prove numbers on the wild ones, because they aren't nice enough to send up death notices. They simply just disappear and are never noticed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jacqui said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isa said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread is very interesting for a lot of us, but unfortunatly some people made it into a debate. In my opinion, if you do not care about this cause (about orcas and dolphins kept in captivity) why put your 2 cents?! I like it when Kalina puts update on what is happening and I am sure I am not the only one .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Isa, I can tell you why I did, I simply got tired of the posting of information from other activist sites, the biased information given in them, and the constant negative things being said about SW for one. Following with your thoughts on why put in your two cents worth, Isa if I posted to somebody that they should keep their Hermanns in a bowl of water for a we without letting them get out of the water at all, would you just ignore it or would you put your two cents worth in?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Jacqui, my message was not for you. I really think that everyone has the right to have an opinion. When I said "why put your 2 cents" I was talking about some people who insults other members or just make fun of some member's opinion. I would not like the thread to become a debate because I like reading the info Kalina post and I believe in this cause.
> 
> To answer your question if you would say that about Hermanns, I would not be the only one putting my 2 cents, Hermy and Popcorn would come in too  lol.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See you answered your own question about why folks can't just keep passing over this thread.
Click to expand...




Jacqui, I would say something because some people who knows you are a good and knowledgeble keeper would listen to you, but do you have an orcas in your backyard? no! Do I have one orcas in my backyard? no! It is a cause, you believe in it, or you dont. If you dont, what does it do to you if Kalina and some of us believe in the cause? Nothing. So why keep debating?


----------



## Kalina

Jacqui said:


> Kalina said:
> 
> 
> 
> No not saying that at all, I'm saying we were all happy just posting info for one another then all of a sudden a few people who say they have no interest in this topic or haven't got the time to talk/debate/research or take part is discussion come on here and start with their "Humor", sarcastic remarks, name calling...etc, but yet the people who have been happily posting info here are reading the "warning" posts left by you? So if I go on a tortoise thread running my mouth, you'll close that one too right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you start name calling and such on ANY thread, yes you will be warned, as I did here. We seldom close threads without first giving several warnings. We try to get discussions going again WITHOUT the personal remarks made against each other.
Click to expand...


Ok, for example, i go on a popular thread about torts that everybody enjoys talking to one another on, sharing ideas on how to better care for torts, and I call them names, that thread will be closed down just because of me?
Because that's what's happening on this thread... There's a few people who enjoy this thread, then there's those who don't agree with anything wrote here, but come here with their sarcasm.. Personally, I have no interest in torts, couldn't give a toss about them, that's why i never go on the thread dedicated to them...


----------



## Jacqui

Isa said:


> Jacqui, I would say something because some people who knows you are a good and knowledgeble keeper listen to you, but do you have an orcas in your backyard? no! Do I have one orcas in my backyard? no! It is a cause, you believe in it, or you dont. If you dont, what does it do to you if Kalina and some of us believe in the cause? Nothing. So why keep debating?



I guess because for one, I am trying to see her point of view. I feel the information she is giving out is flawed. Because of that I wanted to know some facts. Isa, I am just not the type who would sit back and watch somebody jump off a bridge, because it is after all not my problem or my cause as you so put it. For you Isa, I will make myself less of a person in my eyes and pretend all is well with the world, even tho it does hurt me to know you do not believe folks should be able to question information given in any thread.







Kalina said:


> Personally, I have no interest in torts, couldn't give a toss about them, that's why i never go on the thread dedicated to them...



I was going to leave this thread permanently, but while posting my leaving comment to Isa, I read what you had posted in the mean while.

Now why does somebody join a forum that is about tortoises, if they don't care about them? Excuse me...give a toss about them?


----------



## TylerStewart

Just because I post with sarcasm (sometimes) doesn't mean I'm not making a valid point. Whether you agree with my opinions or not, you don't know that I'm wrong. 



> Kalina, if I say 14 wild whales dies last night due to tooth issues, can you prove me wrong? No you can't, no more then you can tell me how many whales there are currently in the wild. Nor can you tell me last year how many whales were born in the wild and how many of those whales are alive today. I used the above information to show how some whales have died recently. I can't show or prove numbers on the wild ones, because they aren't nice enough to send up death notices. They simply just disappear and are never noticed.



Eeeexactly. Nobody knows squat about how many of them die in the wild, and I'm more convinced than ever that the life expectancy of a wild whale is shorter than a captive one, all things considered (babies dying, mass beachings, etc). They probably beach themselves all the time in areas where people aren't right there to try to save them. There's no way to prove the life expectancy of them in the wild. It's a big deal when they die in captivity only because a handful of people make it a big deal, and because they are well known and named animals.


----------



## Kristina

Kalina said:


> Personally, I have no interest in torts, couldn't give a toss about them, that's why i never go on the thread dedicated to them...



There isn't a THREAD dedicated to tortoises. It is an entire FORUM. Apparently you missed that when you registered at www.TORTOISEforum.org

You expect us to respect YOU and YOUR cause, but you could "give a toss" about our tortoises? You call other people inhumane, but you admit yourself that you have a turtle that you have had for over three years and yet know NOTHING about?

You keep your turtle in a tank in your house, yet rave about the Orcas in tanks at SeaWorld?

I am absolutely flabbergasted.


----------



## ChiKat

It seems like those who are â€œpro Seaworldâ€ have admitted that they donâ€™t care enough or â€œhave the timeâ€ to research the subject. 
Theyâ€™re admitting they arenâ€™t educated on the topicâ€¦so HOW can they say the orcas are better off in captivity, if they know nothing about them?
Asking questions and wanting to know more is one thing, but there should absolutely be no debate.
To suggest that orcas are better off in captivity is laughable. Let's just keep all wild animals in controlled pens! So humane!

Seaworld is doing this for profit- not for the well-being of the whales. You simply cannot logically argue that.


----------



## Kalina

No, I don't care for you respect and I don't either need it or want it... I don't go to tort threads and talk because i don't care for them... I joined this forum because it had an orca thread (in which I am very interested in) I didn't see in the rules that i couldn't join because of that??
From what I've seen on this thread is simply bullying, agree with me or I will shut your thread down... I don't doubt that people have the opposite opinion as me, but lately, I've not really posted opinions as much as posted links, info or news.

And as with my Turtle, sorry to inform you, I didn't go out and buy a turtle, or mistreat any turtle... Fortunately for the turtle in question I took it because it's owner left it to die... My Turtle is clean and well fed and as soon as I find a home for him where they know more about them than I do, well that's where he will live. I don't and never have said i was a turtle expert, they're not my animal of choice.



ChiKat said:


> It seems like those who are â€œpro Seaworldâ€ have admitted that they donâ€™t care enough or â€œhave the timeâ€ to research the subject.
> Theyâ€™re admitting they arenâ€™t educated on the topicâ€¦so HOW can they say the orcas are better off in captivity, if they know nothing about them?
> Asking questions and wanting to know more is one thing, but there should absolutely be no debate.
> To suggest that orcas are better off in captivity is laughable. Let's just keep all wild animals in controlled pens! So humane!
> 
> Seaworld is doing this for profit- not for the well-being of the whales. You simply cannot logically argue that.


 I agree.. and another issue being, people warn us not to debate, then go and do the very thing they told us not to do... Amazing!!


----------



## TylerStewart

Kalina said:


> No, I don't care for you respect and I don't either need it or want it... I don't go to tort threads and talk because i don't care for them... I joined this forum because it had an orca thread (in which I am very interested in)



I think I found what you are looking for:

http://forums.treehugger.com/


----------



## ChiKat

You might as well lock the thread. 
This has turned into:
Facts About Orcas Suffering in Captivity vs. I don't care/I am offended/I am still going to Seaworld/Let me attack you for something unrelated to this topic.
I don't even understand how there can be a debate or argument. 
I have googled "orcas SHOULD be kept in captivity" and tried to find logical arguments. ANYTHING that suggests it's more humane for them to be kept in an aquarium. I have found nothing.

People will believe what they want to believe. Might as well put up the blinders to make ourselves feel better about humanity, right?


----------



## Kalina

I'm good thanks, I have some friends here.


----------



## Madkins007

Wow. Look at all these pots and kettles laying around here. Someone could get hurt.


----------



## Yvonne G

Kalina said:


> From what I've seen on this thread is simply bullying, agree with me or I will shut your thread down... I don't doubt that people have the opposite opinion as me, but lately, I've not really posted opinions as much as posted links, info or news.



Kalina: I think you've missed the whole point of the moderator's threatened action. She was actually RESPECTING your right to post the thread and warning those "bullies" who came on with sarcasm that if they didn't stop, the thread would have to be shut down. That's what we do. We try to keep peace. Did you want us to allow the "bullies" to disrupt your thread?


----------



## ALDABRAMAN

TylerStewart said:


> Kalina said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I don't care for you respect and I don't either need it or want it... I don't go to tort threads and talk because i don't care for them... I joined this forum because it had an orca thread (in which I am very interested in)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I found what you are looking for:
> 
> http://forums.treehugger.com/
Click to expand...

I think you need to unregister and post your causes in another place. This forums foundation is tortoises, everything else is a spin off of that interest. You do not share the common foundation, please go!


----------



## Robert

TylerStewart said:


> Kalina said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I don't care for you respect and I don't either need it or want it... I don't go to tort threads and talk because i don't care for them... I joined this forum because it had an orca thread (in which I am very interested in)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I found what you are looking for:
> 
> http://forums.treehugger.com/
Click to expand...


Tyler:
. I thought that was a joke and didn't expect to find an actual live forum when I clicked the link. Too funny. I think you get a free bottle of patchouli oil when you join!





Kalina said:


> â€œThe scientific research . . . suggests that dolphins are â€˜non-human personsâ€™ who qualify for moral standing as individuals,â€ he said.



No offense Kalina (since this is just a quote and not your words) this might be one of the strangest comments I have ever read. Am I considered a "non-dolphin whale" because I like to swim?

Just for the record, I don't consider dolphins to be "non-human persons", I consider them to be dolphin like dolphins. 

I think the larger issue here is that this is a forum designed for tortoise owners to come together and discuss tortoise husbandry and related topics. As part of the forum, there is an "off topic" section which allows members of the forum to learn more about each others interests. So that being said, it is a little strange that someone would join a tortoise forum because she wants to discuss whales and why they shouldn't be kept at Sea World. The oddity of this is further demonstrated when the person goes so far as to say that she "doesn't give a toss" about tortoises. 

This forum is about husbandry. Your posts are about animal keepers exploiting the animals they keep. Tortoises, orcas, whatever.... The two interests really seem to conflict with one another. 

So my question is, why would someone come to a husbandry forum and then preach only about animal captivity cruelty?

I respect your right to want to protect animals, especially whales and dolphins. We've all seen The Cove. It was a well made documentary. But why on the tortoise forum?


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## Jacqui

Okay everybody, whether you like it or not, whether you understand it or not, it's not the point. Kalina is a member of this forum and as such has all the same rights as everybody else. She has the right to be posting about the whales. That is the topic of this thread, *whales at SeaWorld*. Now let's stay on topic, please.

Sorry one other point I need to make, nobody has the right to ask or tell another member they need to leave this forum. Please refrain on any thread from doing that again. Okay now can we get back to tortoises  and in this case, whales? Thank you.


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## Candy

Wow I just read through all of these posts and I am actually shocked at how Kalina was treated. You know with every post I read to my husband he asks me why I stay on here and lately I can't respond to him because I'm wondering the same thing myself. To anyone who doesn't understand what a "Sea World" thread might contain, it contains things about whales not tortoises. I should have thought that you all would have understood our point at the point that you read Kalina's statement about how she really doesn't care about tortoises. I see a lot of you took offense to that statement. Figure it out, it's because you love tortoises. Now can you see why Kalina had come on here when she googled whales and found my thread. She loves whales. Get the connection? A lot of you don't care about killer whales and had no trouble by stating that fact, and yet we didn't insult you (well maybe Tyler Stewart) but that's a given. Like Kalina said we asked you to give us the side of captivity that was a positive and to this day I've seen nothing to support it. Just because a bunch of pilot whales beached themselves gives humans no right whatsoever to trap them in nets and pull the babies from their mothers and brutally kill others so that we can go to marine parks and watch them perform tricks, and might I add if you don't think this is how it is done then I can't help you. We put information here so people can actually come on and learn something, instead they come on to argue. It will do me no good to post anything else since it's obvious that you don't care to learn. Unfortunate really because animals always interest me, no matter what kind they are. I am not blinded by my own guilt that is why I will not take my children to Sea World or any other marine parks. I want my children to have to best possible information and facts that they can have and also to have the best resources for education. I realize that there are those who do not share this with me, but that's o.k. because the way I figure it "When the student is ready the teacher will appear." There's a lot of students on here that will never be ready I can see that now.


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## Angi

I have to admit to not being very educated about Killer Whales, though I think I have learned a bit here and as for dolphins I learned more in Hawaii than my many trips to Sea World. I believe there is good and bad at Sea World. Dolphins and Orcas should probably not be kept there. But they do take in any hurt sea animal and nurse it back to health. This happends a lot in San Diego. I have never liked the Shamu or Dalphin shows. I just thought they were boring. My favorites were the Sea Lion and Otter show, the shark encouter, the penguins and Polar Bears. I also like the place were you can pet the sting rays. I probably will not go to Sea World again for a VERY long time. It is very expensive and my kid are not interested in going.


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## TylerStewart

Candy said:


> A lot of you don't care about killer whales and had no trouble by stating that fact, and yet we didn't insult you (well maybe Tyler Stewart) but that's a given.



Candy, I'm sorry our relationship didn't work out, but you're going to have to get over me one of these days. I'm a happily married man, and you're seemingly a happily married woman. Your fascination with me needs to end, as I see no future between us. I'm sorry it didn't work out. I hope that in the future you can put more of your enthusiasm into another man. I think you'll sleep better at night if you do.


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## Candy

Tyler I can tell that you need some sleep by the way you're fantasizing. Now that you have (what is it now 7 kids?)  or something like that, it's obvious that you couldn't research if you wanted to. You no longer have the time or probably the energy so that's why we're doing the research for you. Now you just have to take the time and effort to read it.


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## Torty Mom

Holy moly this was a bit of a surprise, came on for an update and I see things have gotten crazy!! 

Here is my .02  Kalina is as passionate about her whales and such as we are about torts and turts. We are exactly the same yet different!  

Tyler and Candy you guys are toooooo FUNNY!!!


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## Kalina

@CT... A google search on Orcas brought me here, that's why I joined, I was interested in a thread left by an already existing member, the fact that it was a tort forum never entered my mind. The Orca thread left by Candy is in "Off Topic" section, I had no idea people here would take such great offence to having such a subject on their forum.

It's as if I joined here one day and started a bunch of threads that nobody was interested in? The thread was already here with people discussing, I simply joined it, I have started a couple more threads that people have also chatted on.

Then what has surprised me the most is how people post on them declaring their lack of interest on the subject? I don't understand why people would do that? That would be like me picking a random thread about Torts and declaring my lack of interest, would there be a point? Obviously the people posting on it would have common interest in it. A poster wrote that I personally don't share a common interest and that i should post my cause somewhere else? But this is not entirely accurate as there is people here who I share interest in Orcas and Dolphins with. If there's no common interest, why does this particular thread have the second most hits on the entire page? (with the exception of the welcome tread) Either people are not being honest and DO have a common interest in this subject, or they simply want to debate on the subject, I'm wondering which it is??

I am not going to appologize for not being that interested in torts, I didn't come here to talk about torts... But I respect that others do and that this is the foundation of this forum, that's why i don't read or write on any of the tort threads, and i certainly wouldn't dream of going on them to voice my displeasure of others having an interest in them.

Sorry for the late reply, I've been away from my comp for a few days.


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## Jacqui

Of okay, I think everybody has had a chance for their say. The topic in this thread is Sea World and them once more putting trainers in with the whales. Let's keep it on that subject okay?


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## Angi

Hi Kalina, It seems you are here to try and educate people about your cause. I have to say I have learned a little from your posts. And they have made me think a little more about Orcas and dolphins. I have not read all your posts as they are sometimes very long and not about my passion torts. But I do care about all animals. I am curios and maybe I missed it in an earlier post, where are you from? What sparked your interest in sea life? Have you been to Sea World? Arte you interested in all sea life or just orcas and dolphin? Do you think it is wrong to put trainers in with orcas because of the danger to the trainer or the whale?
BTW~ If you spent a little time with a tort I bet you would fall in love


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## Kalina

Hi Angi, I'm currently living in the Midwest... I've always had an interest in Marine Life but not to this extent, Whales have always fascinated me but i never really thought about the problems they face before. I've always been interested in Dolphin and orca intelligence, it amazes me that these animals are close to us on the intelligence level... I've been reading about the Dolphin cerebral Cortex (which is similar in size to ours) which suggests that they have a level of intelligence comparable to our own. I love what scientists are now doing to examine the levels... This means Dolphins and Orcas feel pain, grief, happiness, depression and a lot of other emotions... They know how to reason, they have some idea of right from wrong and they plan and think about their day, I just find this amazing.
With regards to my stance on captivity, I never really gave it much thought to be honest, I never thought they were unhappy in captivity, I knew nothing of Whaling, I didn't know Dolphin Slaughter existed, ...until I visited SeaWorld.

I was going on vacation and part of the package was a visit to SW, I was so excited... I had learned so much on Dolphin and Orca behavior, on their Social Order...etc, i couldn't wait to see them up close and personal. We even paid extra money to do a "Swim with the Dolphins" session...

I did an interaction with a Dolphin named Stieme... Stieme had this big smile on his face and was very eager to please, he was showing me how he could kiss my feet under the water, how he could spit water at me and splash me, we shook hands and we hugged and he showed me just how high he could jump, with each trick he showed me, his trainer would throw a fish at him, I remember thinking whether he must get bored doing the same thing everyday for a line of different people, I was just one of thousands that Stieme had entertained.
I then went to another pool which had a lot of Dolphins in it, this was a "Feed the Dolphins" program... The pool was open for the public to put their hands in the water and touch the Dolphins. But, for some strange reason all the Dolphins were huddled together in the center of the pool, they wouldn't come to the edges where the people were waiting, I just remember looking at them all, how they didn't have the room to swim without humans reaching out and touching them, so, in the middle (out of arms reach) they stayed. Witnessing this gave me a sense of sadness and i didn't understand why. It was after watching the Killer Whale Show "Believe" that I knew something was very wrong... All the research and reading I'd done on Dolphin/Orca behavior, all the wildlife documentaries I'd sat thru, all the books I'd read telling me exactly how these magnificent mammals operate on a daily basis, all the websites, all the questions I'd asked The Center for Whale Research, none of it was apparent at SW, there I was looking at these animals in the flesh and blood, but they didn't behave the same as I had learned they did, I found it all very sad which then prompted me to dig into the captivity industry, and wow, what a can of worms that is.

I used to be a Humane officer and i was called out to a Tort HBC (hit by car)... When I got there it was huge, but i car had gone over it and it's shell was broken open, I'll always remember that Torts face as i put him in my van... He had to be put to sleep but for some reason it really bothered me what had happened to this poor animal... It's sad with any animal, but that Tort and a deer are the two that I'll remember forever.


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## Angi

I am so glad I got to learn more about you and what sparked your passion. I think I have said this a few times, but will say it again. I have lived in San Diego all but two years of my life so have been to Sea World enough times to concider it boring. My kids are past the age of being fasinated by that stuff and the crowds are awful. When ever I have been to the dolphin pool I think they swim around, but I never stayed long because I really hate crowds holding stinky fish. The most I ever learned about dolphins was on a snorkling boat in Hawaii.
That was amazing. I have to say I did not get in the water with the dolphins, but watched from the boat. My husband did though. I went snorkling off a reef of fish and where there was a sea turtle.
I DID NOT know anything about the killing of dolphins in Japan until I read it here though I don't think there is anything I can do about it.

Good luck to you with your efforts to help dolphins and orcas!


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## Kalina

That must have been a fantastic experience for you and your husband (watching the wild Dolphins)... They have so much personality and they're so curious about us... If you have pics I would love to see them (if you can post them here, not sure?) There's a place in western Australia (Monkey Mia) where the Dolphins will come up onto the beach to interact with people, would love to go there. A lot of researchers go there now to document natural behavior, the Dolphins seem to want to cooperate and don't mind humans following them.


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## ChiKat

When I was 14 I went on a whale watch in Maui  It was very cool to see the whales in their natural habitat. I think that taught me more than I would have learned watching a whale perform tricks at Seaworld


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## Isa

We can go see whales in a city called charlevoix in the province of Quebec, my hubby and I wants to go this summer . I can't wait, I am sure it is going to be super interesting. 
Kalina, I find your story very interesting and glad you shared it with us 
Angie and Katie, if you have pics, I would love to see them too


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## ChiKat

My pictures were back in the days of point-and-shoot cameras with no zoom. I dug out the scrapbooks to post pictures here, but the pictures consist of the water with a small speck in the corner- look, a whale tail!


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## Isa

LOL Katie Thanks for the laugh .


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## Angi

I didn't get any good pictures of the dolphin. They were too fast. I can't post on here anyway. I am a computer chalenged. Last year I drove on a field trip for fifth graders to see a ship and there was a whale stuck in the harbor. Actually it might have been the year before which was fourth grade. We saw it. I am pretty sure they got it back out to sea. It must have been a baby. I have never had the wanted to go whale watching. I just doesn't sound exciting to me and I see coupons and Groupons for it all the time.


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## Terry Allan Hall

ChiKat said:


> My captive bred tortoise is THRIVING under my care. If you could say the same about orcas kept in captivity I might feel differently.



Good point...otoh, if each of these orcas had as much room available to them as each of my European tortoises have (my math comes up w/ 400' X 320', or thereabouts, for an equivalent), that'd be a start...Google indicates most Sea World-type attractions allow 2 body lengths X 1 body length for up to two orcas per holding unit, or 50' X 25' (the display/show pools are much larger, of course)...or to put it another way, it's the same as you and your spouse living entirely in a space somewhat smaller than a walk-in closet...but you do get to come out a few times a day for a brief period.

One expert stated, right after the last tragedy, "building a tank the size of Rhode Island wouldn't be large enough for a six-ton male such as Tilikum".


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## Kalina

Terry Allan Hall said:


> ChiKat said:
> 
> 
> 
> My captive bred tortoise is THRIVING under my care. If you could say the same about orcas kept in captivity I might feel differently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good point...otoh, if each of these orcas had as much room available to them as each of my European tortoises have (my math comes up w/ 400' X 320', or thereabouts, for an equivalent), that'd be a start...Google indicates most Sea World-type attractions allow 2 body lengths X 1 body length for up to two orcas per holding unit, or 50' X 25' (the display/show pools are much larger, of course)...or to put it another way, it's the same as you and your spouse living entirely in a space somewhat smaller than a walk-in closet...but you do get to come out a few times a day for a brief period.
> 
> One expert stated, right after the last tragedy, "building a tank the size of Rhode Island wouldn't be large enough for a six-ton male such as Tilikum".
Click to expand...


I agree, it's far too small, and SW have multiple Orcas together in these tanks... Saying all that, SW isn't nearly as bad as some other aquariums, personally I think The Miami Seaquarium is much, much worse, poor Lolita lives alone in a tiny illegal pool. It's very sad.


----------



## Terry Allan Hall

Kalina said:


> Terry Allan Hall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChiKat said:
> 
> 
> 
> My captive bred tortoise is THRIVING under my care. If you could say the same about orcas kept in captivity I might feel differently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good point...otoh, if each of these orcas had as much room available to them as each of my European tortoises have (my math comes up w/ 400' X 320', or thereabouts, for an equivalent), that'd be a start...Google indicates most Sea World-type attractions allow 2 body lengths X 1 body length for up to two orcas per holding unit, or 50' X 25' (the display/show pools are much larger, of course)...or to put it another way, it's the same as you and your spouse living entirely in a space somewhat smaller than a walk-in closet...but you do get to come out a few times a day for a brief period.
> 
> One expert stated, right after the last tragedy, "building a tank the size of Rhode Island wouldn't be large enough for a six-ton male such as Tilikum".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree, it's far too small, and SW have multiple Orcas together in these tanks... Saying all that, SW isn't nearly as bad as some other aquariums, personally I think The Miami Seaquarium is much, much worse, poor Lolita lives alone in a tiny illegal pool. It's very sad.
Click to expand...


Agreed...something should be done for Lolita.

Here in Texas, the Dallas Zoo is a source of shame for their treatment of Jenny, an African elephant in a much too tiny enclosure, where she must live in solitude...many have been trying to convince the Dallas Zoo to send her to an elephant sanctuary for her remaining years, and either shut down the zoo's Elephant exhbit or build a proper one.


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## onarock

The way Zoo's and Aquariums decide on weather their going to spend the money on building larger-better aquariums sounds like the same process automobile manufacturers use when deciding weather or not to do a recall.


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## Candy

The Seaquarium's tank for Lolita is 35' wide and 20' feet deep in the middle. Lolita is 21 feet long and approx: 6000 lbs. and she's been kept in that same tank for 40 years. 

I can't believe the Dallas Zoo has one elephant by it's self. That's shameful.  I am sorry to hear that. The zoo's never have enough space to keep elephants. I feel the same way about them as I do the whales.


----------



## Terry Allan Hall

Candy said:


> The Seaquarium's tank for Lolita is 35' wide and 20' feet deep in the middle. Lolita is 21 feet long and approx: 6000 lbs. and she's been kept in that same tank for 40 years.
> 
> I can't believe the Dallas Zoo has one elephant by it's self. That's shameful.  I am sorry to hear that. The zoo's never have enough space to keep elephants. I feel the same way about them as I do the whales.



Well, they did have two, until a few years ago, when the other female was "put down" due to illness...but when they both shared that tiny enclosure, it was even more cramped...which may have led to the other female's illness.

The Forest Park Zoo (Ft. Worth) has a much nicer, roomier elephant exhibit, plenty large enough for the 6 or 7 elephants that live there, but Dallas doesn't seem to think spending the $$$ (or allowing Jenny to go to an elephant sanctuary) is important...


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## Kalina

Some of the dangers of being an Orca Trainer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWP4rQXToRw&NR=1


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## Isa

I could not watch the video until the ends it breaks my heart too much. The worst part that the trainers love the whales with all their hearts and they do not undertstand why the whales are acting like that. It is so sad for the trainers who have lost their lives, sad the ones being attacked and sad the for the whales because they never asked to be abused that way (Being abused for $$$) they just want to be free and in my opinion, when they attack like that, even them do not know what is going on in their heads . But I guess Seaworld, Marineland... just do not care about that, they do not care about the trainers, they do not care about the whales they just care about $$$!!! I wish it would be them in the pool with the mad whales!


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## Candy

Wow Kalina I have never seen that video. The trainers do not know what it's all about until this happens to them.


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## ChiKat

Are you kidding me?!?

"SeaWorld Orlando plans to put the killer whale Tilikum back into public performances beginning Wednesday, for the first time since the 6-ton whale killed a trainer at the marine park more than one year ago."

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/s...eath-returns-to-1358921.html?cxtype=ynews_rss

(love the comments at the bottom though)


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## Candy

Wow I didn't know that they were going to do that again. Thanks for the article. I loved the comments at the end also. I see that everyone that posted considers the lives of not only the trainers, but the animals also. I found it very interesting that my son Noah gave his oral presentation on the captivity of Killer Whales at Sea World and the Miami Seaquarium and when he was done he asked everyone to raise their hands if they would go to Sea World again. It turned out to be 16 no, 8 yes, but what really surprised me is when they told him that they thought that the whales were boring, what they wanted to go to Sea World for were the rides. I didn't even know that they had rides there.  He got an A on his report. Very proud of him because he was able to show both sides and let them make up their own minds. Noah learned so much from this project it actually took him 40 minutes to give the presentation. Way to research Noah.


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## ChiKat

Wow, good for your son! You must be so proud


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## Kalina

I think I read somewhere that he was supposed to be in the show on Wednesday, a ton of people showed up and he never went out, they claim he was "Shy". I've also read that the new set they're building in the Killer Whale Stadium conveniently hides the back pools, so they'll be no more undercover video of Tilikum being isolated for days on end.


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## Isa

Aww Candy that is amazing. You must be very proud of your son, I am very proud of him too !
I cant believe they will put Tilikum back into public performance, will they ever leave him alone  So one day, if he gets unhappy again and stressed out in the pool and kill someone else it is going to be the whales fault right!!!!!! 
I am happy because more and more people are aware of the situation now, I really hope there will be some changes one day.
I was talking about that with a friend of mine (she has 2 kids) and I was showing her the youtube videos. I told her, would you go to Marineland now that you know all that. she answered me ''well if they still do it it must not be that bad and what do I do if my 2 kids wants to go one day) ?!?!?! No comments!


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## Kalina

Tili is about to make his appearance, I think the show is about to start.


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## Kalina

Well, Tili was in the show today, he moved slow, probably due to being left alone to log all day for the past 13 months.


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## Kalina

Keiko: The only long term captive orca to ever be released back into the wild did thrive despite captive industry claims.

For 6 years Keiko lived outside of the concrete jungle and he thrived. Keiko gained weight, re-learned his hunting skills and built his strength up enough to travel the oceans. Keiko died FREE. His story is one of success, even though the captive industry claims being free killed Keiko. Marine parks use Keikoâ€™s death as an excuse to not attempt release/retirement programs for their captive orcas. This is unacceptable to us and it should also be to the majority of people.

Little does the SeaWorld disclose to the public about captive orcas dying in the parks.

Orcas die all the time in captivity, yet this has not persuaded the captive industry to stop keeping them in captivity. Instead marine parks uses the excuse that ONE captive released orca died 6 years after his release so all captive orcas are unreleasable. Any person using even half of their brain can see this is just not correct.

In actuality captive orca deaths have inspired the captive industry to breed more orcas to take the place of the orcas that die at their hands. You do not hear marine parks screaming that captivity kills orcas so they should not be kept in captivity. To use Keiko as an excuse to not attempt release/retirement programs is a double standard that the captive industry wishes to try to brainwash the public into â€œbelievingâ€.

Ask yourself how many orcas have died within 6 years of being placed or born into captivity. If you do not know the answer than you should not be debating these matters with those that do know. I can tell you this, more than one orca has died within the first 6 years of living in captivity. 97 out of 156 orcas that have died in captivity did not survive 6 yearsâ€¦.more than 62%.

Wanda 2 days, Moby Doll 3 months, Namu 1 year, Shamu 6 years, Katy 3 months, Orky 2 years, Lupa 7 months, Bonnie 4 months, Natsidalia 7 months, Corky 2 1/2 years, Tula 3 months, Ahad 5 1/2 years, Cuddles 5 1/2 years, Mamuk 5 1/2 years, Ramu2 1 year, Calypso 1 year, Patches 1 1/2 years, Kenny 1 1/2 years, Scarredjaw Cow 2 months, Chimo 2 1/2 years, Lil Nootka 7 months, Ramu4 1 year, Wally 1 year, Clovis 2 1/2 years, Chappy 3 1/2 years, Jumbo 4 years, Kandu3 4 years, Kona 6 years, Canuck 2 1/2 years, Zero 15 days, Sandy 4 1/2 years, Kandy 3 months, Frankie 5 months, Nootka2 9 months, Nootka3 9 months, Kim 5 1/2 years, Baby 18 days, Miracle 4 1/2 years, Magnus 2 months, Canuck2 4 years, no name 4 months, Spooky 11 days, no name 5 months, no name 5 days, no name 1 month, no name 2 months, Chi 4 months, Tai 3 years, Surfer Girl 9 days, Dzul-ha 4 years, no name 3 months, King 4 years, Benkei2 2 1/2 years, no name 2 months, Neptune 1 1/2 years, Nemo 5 years, no name 4 months, Benkei3 1 1/2 years, Sacchi 2 years, no name 10 days, Kiva 48 days, no name 8 months, Nandu 4 1/2 years, no name 2 months, Freyja 3 years, no name 1 months, Milagro 5 1/2 years, Baby Shamu 11 days, no name 2 months, Shachi 2 years, Prince 4 years, no name 22 days, Ai 6 years, Kyosha 96 days, no name 33 days, no name 62 days, no name 1 day, Nyar 2 1/2 years, Kanuck 4 years, no name 38 days, no name 1 day, no name 1 day, Malik 4 years, Nova 4 1/2 years, no name 4 months, no name 4 months, no name 11 days, Hudson 6 years, Algonquin 2 1/2 years, Sarah 3 years, no name 28 days, April 1 month, Athena 4 1/2 years, no name 2 days, Halyn 2 1/2 years, no name 3 days, Pascuala 2 months

The captive industryâ€™s stance regarding the release of Keiko is degrading to the orca species as a whole. Marine parks relay to the public about how intelligent orcas are, yet when it comes to Keiko and current captive orcas, this is not the case. Despite evidence of Keiko thriving, the captive industry claims he just died, he was killed because he could not make it. Keiko made it. Keiko disproved all the claims marine parks make about releasing/retiring captive orcas. This is why they take such a terrible stance against Keikoâ€™s release.

Marine parks have proven that some orcas have the ability to adapt. After all, their orca â€collectionsâ€ originally came from the wild. They have adapted to eating dead fish that is an unnatural food source for them. They have gone from swimming many miles a day to surface floating, hunting and catching birds, socially interacting with humans and even interacting and breeding with other subspecies which would never occur in the wild. If these orcas can learn to adapt to these conditions, why is it so easy for marine parks to state they could never learn to adapt to their natural state of living in the oceans? Which is it?

Many will claim â€œcaptive orcas would never survive in the wildâ€. The thing is Orcas have not been in captivity long enough to breed out their natural instincts. Rather they were born in captivity or not, they still have DNA encoded deep within them to ensure their survival here on Earth. SeaWorld claims to have the most extensive knowledge of orcas on the planet, yet SeaWorld does not have more knowledge and experience than Mother Nature or God or who ever you wish to give credit for creating orcas. To take such a God like stance is very arrogant on SeaWorldâ€™s part. They do not have the ability to just magically remove certain DNA and replace it with other DNA regarding these orcas. This arrogance is displayed to the public constantlyâ€¦.every time they claim their orcas are â€œhappyâ€, not stressed and doing very well is another one of those God like stances they take, as orcas in the wild do get stressed, they express an entire range of emotions, and sometimes do not do so well. Mother Nature, God or who ever you would like to give credit to creating orcas does not hide this from us so why does SeaWorld hide it from us?

Read on... http://withoutmethereisnou.wordpress.com/2011/04/01/seaworlds-double-standard-stirs-controversy/ Has pics of sea pen.


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## Candy

Here's some of the most damaging evidence against what Sea World does to get their whales and how they're buy they've bought their way out. This is what you support if you buy tickets to go to Sea World. It's only 2 minutes long so please watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPB-YXIL0qY&feature=player_embedded


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## ChiKat

Candy said:


> Here's some of the most damaging evidence against what Sea World does to get their whales and how they're buy they've bought their way out. This is what you support if you buy tickets to go to Sea World. It's only 2 minutes long so please watch.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPB-YXIL0qY&feature=player_embedded



What is wrong with people???


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## Terry Allan Hall

ChiKat said:


> Candy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's some of the most damaging evidence against what Sea World does to get their whales and how they're buy they've bought their way out. This is what you support if you buy tickets to go to Sea World. It's only 2 minutes long so please watch.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPB-YXIL0qY&feature=player_embedded
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is wrong with people???
Click to expand...


It's all about the Benjarmins...otoh, I had no idea how many orcas can die just to capture a few...kinda like how that cute baby monkey in the petshop is sometimes "aquired" through the shooting of it's mother...


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## Candy

I seem to remember someone saying that these Orca's are not kept in tanks that are the size of bathtubs or small pools, really? What does this look like? Lolita has been living in this tank (that leaks) for 40 years now. It's time to let her go free. Take a look at the tank that she's in now and then scroll down to see where she would be retiring to if they let her go today. It's beautiful. Please don't buy tickets to these parks because when you do this is what you're supporting. 

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/...arium.html?soid=1101447505873&aid=TBlgPyiO2x0


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## terryo

If that doesn't bring tears to your eye's I don't know what will. Do you think this will happen Candy?


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## ascott

"Just because we can does not mean we should"....I care for Ca Desert Tortoise because our species is determined to take every viable piece of the earth they have lived in and they now don't even have a protected area to simply survive in....I would much rather they were left alone to their wild environment instead of my little piece of the desert...but no...it is much much to late for the victims of the "relocation" programs....and if history holds true our only habitat for this symbolic unselfish humble gladiator will be spaces in our yards....that mentality is what brings a pain to my soul..and we have proclaimed our species the most intelligent huh....not so smart. (Disclaimer: I use desert tortoise as just one of too many examples of our ignorance)


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## Candy

Terry I definitely think that it will happen if she doesn't die first. Isn't her retirement area beautiful? It all makes me so sad to see where she could be versus where she is right now. Here's another public message about Sea World. This one is from Bob Barker, I love him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ITUGBrZEeCQ


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## anthony

*assay*

[color=FFF8DC] 

window blinds 

pictures of window treatments[/color]


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