# Pyramiding in star tortoises, effects of humidity & lighting



## turtlesteve (Aug 25, 2015)

So, I was going to post this in the burmese star forum but decided I might get more input here. I have 2 burmese stars that I have been raising by a variation of the "closed chamber" approach, but are still pyramiding. No pics at the moment but I'll try to post some tomorrow.

Both tortoises are over a year old but were bought separately as hatchlings with a little bit of growth (about 2"). They are housed separately in closed aquariums, kept very warm (78 - 95+ F). Tanks are completely covered, they are heavily misted so that substrate stays moist to wet. Both are under MVB lighting and get an identical diet (mazuri, mixed greens, occasional calcium supplement). Both eat well but growth rates are different, one is 3", the other is 4.25". Both are still pyramiding. It's not extreme, but noticeable. I'm sure it would have been worse without high humidity. However, I'm a little disappointed as I'd hoped to nip this in the bud. 

So I suspect that there is another big factor here, and it may be the MVB lighting as Tom has suggested. This aligns best with my personal observation that many tortoises raised under sunlight end up smooth without any particular attention paid to humidity. So I'll certainly be following Tom's experiments. I'd love to run tests like this myself, but can't commit to long term care for a dozen sulcatas (and my wife has seen how big they get!)

Any other thoughts would be appreciated. I've read a couple times that star tortoises are more prone to pyramiding, so curious to know if I'm making a big deal out of nothing here.

Thanks in advance,
Steve


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## wellington (Aug 25, 2015)

Will be interesting to see. My thought, I had read before that some species na thrall pyramid and I do remember one or possibly both of the star species being one of them. Now, I have no idea if this is true, old outdated thought of what. I did read it on this forum back in 2011 or 2012


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## G-stars (Aug 25, 2015)

I have to disagree. Tortoises raised outdoors with full sun can and do pyramid if kept in low humidity environments. 

I also have some Burmese stars which are being raised in similar conditions to what you described and are very smooth. I also am using an MVB. 

What humidity levels are they being exposed to? How often are they soaked? Do they have access to water? Do they have a humid hide?


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## Yvonne G (Aug 25, 2015)

Another thing to consider - you said they already had a bit of growth on them when you got them. When the angle of growth starts, and you change the conditions, it takes a long time for that angle to straighten out. So even though you're now raising them in supposedly optimum conditions, they're going to grow in the pyramid shape for a bit.


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## SarahChelonoidis (Aug 26, 2015)

How close are they to the light and what wattage is it?


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## turtlesteve (Aug 26, 2015)

OK so this is the larger tortoise:



And the smaller.



I wouldn't say this is severe pyramiding, but noticeable. Also note the smaller tortoise has 2 pairs of "stuck" marginal scutes. I don't know if this means anything, but they have always been like this.

G-stars, I did not mean to suggest that all tortoises raised outside will end up smooth. But in the Santa Barbara / Ventura / Oxnard CA area I have seen a decent number of very smooth sulcatas that were raised outdoors with no specific actions taken to avoid pyramiding.

Humidity levels - I haven't measured recently. I used to have a digital probe but ironically it got wet and quit working. But back when I measured, it ranged from 50-75%, with the lower number being prior to misting. I could not get higher than 75% even with standing water in the substrate.
Soaking - for the first few months they got soaked about every other day, but I gradually quit soaking as they grew larger.
Water - Always available, and they will drink multiple times per day.
Humid hide - Their original hides were 5" terra cotta pots cut in half. Material was added to retain humidity (damp sphagnum moss, etc) but they would typically remove it. Lately they show no interest in hide boxes & prefer to sleep out in the open. 
Bulbs are 100W powersun and placed about 15" over the substrate.

Steve


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## turtlesteve (Aug 26, 2015)

Gus, any pictures? I'd love to have something to compare to.



G-stars said:


> I have to disagree. Tortoises raised outdoors with full sun can and do pyramid if kept in low humidity environments.
> 
> I also have some Burmese stars which are being raised in similar conditions to what you described and are very smooth. I also am using an MVB.
> 
> What humidity levels are they being exposed to? How often are they soaked? Do they have access to water? Do they have a humid hide?


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## G-stars (Aug 26, 2015)

turtlesteve said:


> OK so this is the larger tortoise:
> View attachment 145503
> 
> 
> ...



Your right it's not severe pyramiding. It doesn't really look to bad actually. 

I live south of you and the humidity here is very dry. 

My humidity levels don't drop below the 70's. Usually it's between 80-90%. Do you use an open enclosure or closed? Closed is very easy to maintain high humidity. 

I soak every day. I think I've missed once since I got them. 

How big are your tortoises?


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## G-stars (Aug 26, 2015)

turtlesteve said:


> Gus, any pictures? I'd love to have something to compare to.



I'll take some on my phone in a bit.


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## G-stars (Aug 26, 2015)

Here's one that I caught out of his hide eating.


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## turtlesteve (Aug 26, 2015)

Wow I have to hand it to you, they look perfect.

Yes the tanks are covered on top, with no gaps bigger than about 1/4"
They are currently 4 1/4" (top photo) and 3" (bottom photo).

I forgot to mention, I measured humidity during the day near the center of the enclosure, at about 85-90F (not directly under the basking spot). Once I hit 75%, water condensed out on the glass (because we keep the surrounding room at 68-70F). So I believe the cold glass surface is what keeps me from getting humidity any higher. In comparison I could easily hit 90% humidity by putting a bowl of water in a styrofoam incubator.

This problem hasn't been discussed much in the other topics about closed chambers, but it seems like thermal insulation is important if the surrounding room is to be air conditioned.


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## G-stars (Aug 26, 2015)

turtlesteve said:


> Wow I have to hand it to you, they look perfect.
> 
> Yes the tanks are covered on top, with no gaps bigger than about 1/4"
> They are currently 4 1/4" (top photo) and 3" (bottom photo).
> ...



Thank you. 
Maybe try daily soaks? And/or misting their carapace a couple times a day. Can you take a better pic of the top? Looks like one has an extra vertebrae scute which can explain why the scutes are sticking.


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## Tom (Aug 27, 2015)

This species seems to show some of this type of mild pyramiding no matter what people do. At least some percentage of them do, and this is what can make it so confusing. I have one that is pyramiding just a little worse than yours, a couple that are pyramiding at about the same rate as yours and several that are perfect like Gus's example. I've had them all since they were 27-32 grams and they were all raised in the same giant closed chamber with the exact same conditions, routine and food. I've seen this pattern in most other people's collections too. Around 20% seem to show some mild pyramiding while their cage mates in the same conditions show none. As of yet, I have not found an explanation, or solution, to this problem.

Steve, I can't say you are doing anything wrong there, but a few things jump out at me. I can't use MVBs in my giant closed chambers because they run too hot and overheat the whole thing. If you are running them in an aquarium which is smaller than 4x8' and things are not over heating, this tells me that you have a lot more airflow and ventilation with that cold dry room air than you think.

Also, an open flower pot with moss in it does not a humid hide make. You are seeing the results.

Those babies should have been soaked daily.

Having these things done better might have reduced the effects you are seeing, but even in what seems like "perfect"conditions, they still pyramid sometimes, so maybe it wouldn't have mattered.


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## turtlesteve (Aug 27, 2015)

Tom,

Thanks for the input - I appreciate all the work you have done in this subject. Good point on the heat loss - it's definitely going somewhere, either air exchange or heat loss through the glass.
Your comment on more frequent soaking is noted but this is a topic I am personally conflicted on. Honestly, I only soaked every other day (and eventually stopped) because they seem to have no problem drinking on their own and it caused behavior I associate with stress.

G-stars - The larger one has extra scutes, but not the smaller. I'll be trying to increase humidity. The scutes were stuck when I got this one, but were barely noticeable at a smaller size. I figured they would separate but it didn't happen. Neither of them came to me direct from the breeder, so I have no information about prior care.

So I will take some of these suggestions & start on a new enclosure to retain humidity better.

Thanks,
Steve


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## G-stars (Aug 28, 2015)

Humidity increase should help some. However since your humidity wasn't that low, I think what will help the most is daily soakings/carapace misting. Although I personally don't directly hydrate their carapace other than when they are being soaked.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Dec 13, 2015)

Interesting. 
i do think genetics must play a part sometimes, perhaps Tom's torts, all raised in the same conditions are subject to this.
But I also wonder if stress could be a factor? 
Tortoises are particularly affected by stress, it seems to me, and people often underrate the effects of stress on themselves.
For example among the symptoms of long term stress (and there are many) are skin and hair problems, such as acne, psoriasis and eczema as well as the possibility of permanent hair loss.
Could it be that a stressed tortoise suffers the equivalent of skin and hair problems manifesting as pyramiding ?
Is this an explanation for why Tom's tortoises, living in a group, would have a number more stressed than others with the situation?
Just a thought.


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## Anyfoot (Dec 14, 2015)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Interesting.
> i do think genetics must play a part sometimes, perhaps Tom's torts, all raised in the same conditions are subject to this.
> But I also wonder if stress could be a factor?
> Tortoises are particularly affected by stress, it seems to me, and people often underrate the effects of stress on themselves.
> ...


I've often wondered about this. Do juveniles in the wild live as solitary animals until they reach a certain age/size. However I'm sure people have raised single juveniles to be pyramided. Still doesn't mean there wasn't other stresses than just being with another Tortoise. @Tom have you ever raised juveniles seperate in a stress free environment to eradicate this possibility?


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## Tidgy's Dad (Dec 14, 2015)

Anyfoot said:


> I've often wondered about this. Do juveniles in the wild live as solitary animals until they reach a certain age/size. However I'm sure people have raised single juveniles to be pyramided. Still doesn't mean there wasn't other stresses than just being with another Tortoise. @Tom have you ever raised juveniles seperate in a stress free environment to eradicate this possibility?


I'm not saying pyramiding is only caused by stress, even a stress free tortoise could be pyramided if the humidity isn't correct, just that it may be another contributory factor, the same way that hair loss or skin ailments may or may not have stress as a cause. 
I doubt tortoises can live an entirely stress free existence, as a prey animal they're constantly on edge, but again, genetically, some will be less affected by stress than others.


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## xXtortoiseloverXx (Dec 16, 2015)

Feed every other day , and have bigger area for it to walk may help.


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