# My poor Tiny Tim! (drags back legs)



## obi420 (Mar 1, 2014)

About a week ago I adopted a russian tortoise off craigslist when we got home I realized he just dragged his black legs behind so I did some research and realized the wood chips his previous owners had him in were not good so I changed it to 50/50 mix of coir and sand like substrate. I've now seen him use his back legs once each. He also was only being fed iceberg lettuce and carrots? I've switched that to spring mix and baby spinach because that's the food I had off hand for my mali uromastyx. He is has also eaten cucumbers out of mine and my fiances hands. And when i got him he had a cob web on him so he obviously wasnt taking baths, that too ive changed and he loves the baths. Is there anything I'm doing wrong? And is his shell OK the spacing between platelets is kinda big. They told me he was about 4 or 5 years old.I just wanna help my little buddy out any suggestions?


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## wellington (Mar 1, 2014)

*RE: My poor Tiny Tim!*

Sorry to tell you this, but yes a couple things you need too change. No more sand, it can cause impaction. Also, no more spinach, not good for them. The cucumber is okay for a dehydrated tortoise, as it's mostly water. No iceberg lettuce either, all water. You are mainly feeding him water, or not really feeding him.
Broad leafy greens, weeds, etc. is best too feed. Look at thetortoisetable.org.uk for more edible ideas.


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## obi420 (Mar 1, 2014)

*RE: My poor Tiny Tim!*

Well I'm feeding him darker leafy greens now he's on the same diet as my Mali whom I was also concerned of Impaction with so Its vitasand mixed in with coir.. you did not read carefully if you can't read how could you help him?


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## Yvonne G (Mar 1, 2014)

*RE: My poor Tiny Tim!*

Hi Obi, and welcome to the Forum!

The spaces between the 'scutes' is new growth. There's nothing wrong with the way they look. It just means he's put on quite a bit of new growth in a big hurry.

Spring mix is ok, however it contains a lot of spinach. Spinach binds the calcium so that it gets pee'd out and not utilized. I have a suspicion your tortoise needs all the calcium he can get right now, and that's the reason for the weak back legs, not the substrate. So pick out most of the spinach and sprinkle a pinch of calcium powder over the food a couple times a week.

And don't let the hype on the packaging fool you. Vita-sand is just as obstructive as any kind of sand. It will cause impaction just as easy as regular sand. You MUST make sure your tortoise is very well-hydrated so if he happens to ingest some sand it is more likely to pass through. Don't get huffy!  We're here to help you. Wellington DID read your thread, and sand is sand no matter what you call it.


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## wellington (Mar 1, 2014)

*RE: My poor Tiny Tim!*



obi420 said:


> About a week ago I adopted a russian tortoise off craigslist when we got home I realized he just dragged his black legs behind so I did some research and realized the wood chips his previous owners had him in were not good so I changed it to 50/50 mix of coir and sand like substrate. I've now seen him use his back legs once each. He also was only being fed iceberg lettuce and carrots? I've switched that to spring mix and baby spinach because that's the food I had off hand for my mali uromastyx. He is has also eaten cucumbers out of mine and my fiances hands. And when i got him he had a cob web on him so he obviously wasnt taking baths, that too ive changed and he loves the baths. Is there anything I'm doing wrong? And is his shell OK the spacing between platelets is kinda big. They told me he was about 4 or 5 years old.I just wanna help my little buddy out any suggestions?



The sand part I said is not good. He's not a Uro!

(He also was only being fed iceberg lettuce and carrots? I've switched that to spring mix and baby spinach because that's the food I had off hand for my mali Uromastyx)

The spinach I said is not good for him. Thought you said you added it to the iceberg, not replaced. My mistake.

He is has also eaten cucumbers out of mine and my fiances hands.
The cucumber statement.

Your attitude is not the way to come on a forum asking for help. Everyone makes mistakes, like your misspelled words, I mistakenly thought you were still feeding iceberg!


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## Jacqui (Mar 1, 2014)

*RE: My poor Tiny Tim!*

The vitasand is worse then sand for impaction. If that's the sand your using, please start over with new substrate. When folks say sand in with the coir, it's playsand and then not more then 20% ever. The leg issues could be from many things, but most likely a mixture of bad care with dehydration being a major possible one. The diet was bad and lacking a lot of important needs for health and muscle tone. The spring mix is okay for starters, but only a very little spinach should be in their diets. Can you get outside weeds that have no chemicals on them? Like plantain, dandelion, clover, ect? Those would be good. When they come out, mulberry and grape leaves are good too. For store bought try things like collard, mustard, and turnip greens. Usually the darker colored leavess mean better tortoise food. Radichio is another nice one. My mind is blanking on other ideas. The cucumber and carrots aren't "good" food items either.


Now the next part is, did they have him outside or under a UVB bulb? Have you gotten him a UVB bulb (those are the expensive bulbs). For a tortoise to use the calcium he gets in his dietary items, he must then have UVB to take that calcium and use it for his body. I am thinking this guy may have lacked both. Certainly his diet is lacking in calcium foods.


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## obi420 (Mar 1, 2014)

*RE: My poor Tiny Tim!*

Well the lack of calcium and the home depot wood chips are both things that would cause metabolic bone disease(not actually a disease) which would make his legs not work and his shell develop wrong also. Its like he couldn't walk anywhere because the wood chips were too loose and so he would just give up on trying to get the food bowl and stuff so he just would sit in the same place. How could he use his back legs if his substrate had been giving him splinters which are all removed now after an intense bath. His previous owners told me he was "lame" he never moved anywhere and barely ate. Since I've changed the substrate he's started walking all around and practically runs to the food bowl and my Mali has been using vitasand for 5 plus years with no symptoms of impaction even though I've watched him eat the sand countless times. I also forgot to mention that I do give him a liquid calcium supplement on his food




Yes he has a uvb bulb and a secondary reptiglo bulb that my fiance added and the cucumber was for hydration purposes and very cute
Also the spring mix I get doesn't have the baby spinach in it I have that separately but other wise spring mix is OK? Also its winter here so no time outside yet but during the summer I hope he'll be my little road dog. There's also no dandelions yet either

Also sorry for being short I'm a lady and its that time of the month I don't mean to be mean lol


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## Yvonne G (Mar 1, 2014)

*RE: My poor Tiny Tim!*

There's a big difference between tortoises and lizards. Lizard stomachs are very slender and the food just passes through. A tortoise stomach is deep, sort of like a cow or horse, so the sand falls down to the bottom and without a lot (A LOT) of hydration, it just sits there and can't make it back up to go out the tube.

You've made the right choice in coming here to the Tortoise Forum to get info on how to care for your tortoise. Now, the next thing for you to do is open your mind and forget everything you thought you knew because chances are its all wrong.


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## obi420 (Mar 1, 2014)

*Re: My poor Tiny Tim!*

Well to be more exact his "sand" is walnut shells and vitasand mixed before it got to the tank. his tank looks like this though ,I have moved most of his toys out Cuz I washed them but per the handful his substrate looks like this and his tank looks like tht


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## Greg T (Mar 1, 2014)

I had a similar situation with a baby leopard that was calcium deficient and couldn't move at all. I added calcium powder to a good diet and provided increased UVB both inside and outside and now she is able to walk again, although still not strong enough to totally lift herself like the others. Definite progress over several weeks, which sounds like you are seeing progress also. Keep up the efforts and yours will be moving with no problems soon hopefully.


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## ascott (Mar 2, 2014)

*



Also sorry for being short I'm a lady and its that time of the month I don't mean to be mean lol

Click to expand...

*
LMAOffffff....okay, so I am going to cut in here and I am not on the red dragon right now but understand the attitude coming through, so let me sync with you now 

The vita sand is an attractive nuisance .....it is designed for a lizard (as Yvonne explained) and their make up....not a deep gutted tort. Please just stop using it...you will be happy you did...and later when your are more receptive, you will be glad you did.

Walnut shells, are not good either. Stop it.

This is a species of tort that likes deep, earthen substrate...they are a creature that likes to hunker down into a deep spot of earth....they will self bury "entirely" if so inclined as well as if proper depth of earth provided....try it.

Soak soak soak this tort....if you insist on adding calcium then great, but also offer hydration and warmth.

I am not trying to be cute and sweet....just sharing what I think. You can take it or you can leave it....I mean, you are the one here asking for peoples advise, right? 

Also, cob webs???? wow, either he is really old (haha, get it?) or he had unwanted guests living with him and he did not move much....very happy to hear he is with someone who wants him ? Good save....now go back to be grouchy.....it will pass, perhaps a glass or two or three of wine ....


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## obi420 (Mar 2, 2014)

Thanks i'll get more coir and do it over again but does the fact that his bowl isnt in the sand mean anything? He doesnt get any sand in his food or coir either? I mean i just went and bought all this stuff which was a litttle more expensive then was expected and the fact that we drove 5 hours total just to pick him up this week is a bad time to say im going to buy new stuff for tim again. But ive also come to realize he exclusively only eats the food i hold for him to eat doesnt matter which food but his doesnt like his bowl no matter where i put it he only eats when hes next to his half log and i hold it for him? Is he just spoiled or what?


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## wellington (Mar 2, 2014)

At this time you don't need to change everything out. When you can, get some more coconut coir or even plain dirt and add to what you have, making the sand only about the 20%. Then when you can afford it better, change up the whole thing. Keeping his food from being one the sand will help. Hand feeding isn't a bad thing, unless that's the only way they will eat. Then you need to do some tuff love and make him eat from the dish.


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## cemmons12 (Mar 2, 2014)

I see you have a lot of advice. I hope something helps him. Poor guy, I just hate hearing stuff like this...


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## RGB (Mar 3, 2014)

I have a rescue hermann that couldn't lift it's shell, and could hardly use it's back legs. I fed it high nutrition foods including plenty of mazuri chow, gave it steady sunlight/UVB and lots of calcium. Also treated it with "physiotherapy". I taped a block to bottom of shell at times so it had to use legs under it, not splayed behind. I also fed it out of a plate with a high lip edge so it had to really push with hind legs to eat. I soaked it a lot and one day it passed a large bladder stone (which made an immediate difference). 2 yrs later it is much better. It will never be normal, has life long MBD, but definitely more healthy!
The interesting part is I kept it away from males to ensure that it would put all it's energy into getting healthy, but about 2 mos ago I placed it in the pen with my breeding colony while I cleaned her pen. I guess I left her alone a little too long cause she just laid her first two eggs ever and one is fertile. Oops! 

Be patient and keep researching, I'll bet you will eventually be able to improve the long term outlook for this tortoise!


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## julietteq (Mar 3, 2014)

RGB said:


> I have a rescue hermann that couldn't lift it's shell, and could hardly use it's back legs. I fed it high nutrition foods including plenty of mazuri chow, gave it steady sunlight/UVB and lots of calcium. Also treated it with "physiotherapy". I taped a block to bottom of shell at times so it had to use legs under it, not splayed behind. I also fed it out of a plate with a high lip edge so it had to really push with hind legs to eat. I soaked it a lot and one day it passed a large bladder stone (which made an immediate difference). 2 yrs later it is much better. It will never be normal, has life long MBD, but definitely more healthy!
> The interesting part is I kept it away from males to ensure that it would put all it's energy into getting healthy, but about 2 mos ago I placed it in the pen with my breeding colony while I cleaned her pen. I guess I left her alone a little too long cause she just laid her first two eggs ever and one is fertile. Oops!
> 
> Be patient and keep researching, I'll bet you will eventually be able to improve the long term outlook for this tortoise!



What a lovely story ! Keep doing what you are doing and please share everything you learn with us.


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