# DT brumaters thread 2013-2014



## thatrebecca (Oct 30, 2013)

I thought I'd start a thread for all of us brumating our DTs this season, to compare and contrast what stage our torts are at and how we're doing things. Check in on that freak 90-degree day in January, that sort of thing.

I'll start off by sharing that my two juveniles, Gomez and Morticia, have been off food since Oct 26 (and for the week prior to that ate very little). They're still up but the cool snap we're having in LA this week has slowed them wayyyyy down. 

Here's the non working chest freezer where they'll be spending the winter:



This is my first time brumating and I'm a bit nervous about it, so I expect I'll be checking temps and tickling toes a lot. 

Now, tell me how your brumaters are doing...


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## ascott (Oct 30, 2013)

All the men folk here are in their boxes....they went in after their soaks on Sunday....as the weather dropped in the daytime by 25+ degrees and the night temps are in the 30s....I don't see the day temps bumping too high (except for Thursday) over the 70 mark and the nights are showing to remain in the 30s....so I believe they are in for the start of the season---this is always just the start....I will do a check on Sunday to see if they settled in as usual and then will check once a week for the next few weeks then move that to every two weeks or so....


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## thatrebecca (Oct 30, 2013)

ascott said:


> All the men folk here are in their boxes....they went in after their soaks on Sunday....as the weather dropped in the daytime by 25+ degrees and the night temps are in the 30s....I don't see the day temps bumping too high (except for Thursday) over the 70 mark and the nights are showing to remain in the 30s....so I believe they are in for the start of the season---this is always just the start....I will do a check on Sunday to see if they settled in as usual and then will check once a week for the next few weeks then move that to every two weeks or so....



Angela, how do you ascertain whether they've settled in? Does it have to do with whether they've moved in their boxes or something else?

Today was the first day neither of my torts came out of their hides. Tomorrow they're due for their soak and I think I'll give them some more time before boxing up, but it's kinda bittersweet to know it's underway.


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## ascott (Oct 31, 2013)

> how do you ascertain whether they've settled in



Alot has to do with learning what their normal is....along with the potential weather....now, to specifically answer you:

I will place them in their box and place all in their closet, I will close the double doors and will get quiet for a bit----if they are ready they will not make a peep and don't move about much---if they are not ready--it sounds like a marching band banging on the big round drums....very obvious....also remember that I have watched them and done the wind down so there is the entire process to consider


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## thatrebecca (Oct 31, 2013)

ascott said:


> > how do you ascertain whether they've settled in
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's hilarious! Thanks for the mental image. I'm now picturing some tortoise version of '76 Trombones' in my head.


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## Team Gomberg (Oct 31, 2013)

Angela, if they do bang around, how long do you give them to either settle down or put them back out?


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## ascott (Oct 31, 2013)

> Angela, if they do bang around, how long do you give them to either settle down or put them back out?



It is more of a feeling than a time frame....I mean there is no mistaking a tenacious CDT annoyed with being in a box....and when they are ready I will hear a little bit of digging motion/sound and this has proven in the past to be them digging into the bedding until they reach their feel good spot and they then settle with little else going on (if I have to place a time frame, perhaps 5 minutes or so...)


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## thatrebecca (Oct 31, 2013)

Been monitoring the temps in the chest freezer before the torts go in and today, which was 80 here, it got up to 62. The lowest it's gotten is 52. I was gonna put some cold water bottles in to drop it down, but if anyone has a better suggestion, please holler.


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## ascott (Nov 1, 2013)

Is the freezer in the little house you have in the picture? I don't use fridges so I am really no help here...(the fridges trigger the OCD chick living in my head and no way she will sleep knowing there are torts in the fridgie..lol) 

I know folks do use them though I can't imagine a solution----well wait a minute? How bout digging a hole about the depth of 3/4 quarters of the fridge and sinking the fridge in the hole and building a little burm around the entire fridge but not the lid---doing this in a place that can be protected from any rainfall? Oh man, now the OCD chick is yelling--wait, what if water fills the fridge--see, it is a no win battle---exhausting some days 

I hope someone will be of better help ..


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## thatrebecca (Nov 1, 2013)

Yep, the freezer is in the darkest corner of that shed. I can put curtains up to keep the sun out, which I assume would help a little. That plus water bottles is all I got.


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## thatrebecca (Nov 2, 2013)

Another SoCal torts super active today in this 85-degree weather? I had figured my two were down for good but today Gomez has been roaming the yard like his life depends on it.


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## nancykj (Nov 2, 2013)

here in woodland hills also thatrebecca. especially my big guy who was all over the place, finally just now saw him go into his burrow. my little guy was roaming around too, tho not quite as frantically. funny, every year it is the same, the big guy goes down last and gets up first. he spends 2-3 weeks less time "asleep" than the little one.


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## ascott (Nov 3, 2013)

> anyone has a suggestion, please holler.



In addition to the curtains (would suggest black out curtains) perhaps setting up a window a/c unit?


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## thatrebecca (Nov 4, 2013)

Hmm we have another warm week in store here in the SF Valley -- daytime highs are forecasted to be in the mid 80s, nighttime lows in the mid 50s. Wonder if my torts will stay up another week. Their soaks are poop-free now, so I think their guts are empty. I'm a little worried about them burning off their fat stores trooping around in this warm weather.


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## thatrebecca (Nov 5, 2013)

OK the water bottles lowered temps in the freezer. Yesterday's 24-hour temp range was 50-52. It was also an overcast day, which helped. I still need to get curtains. Dunno about the AC unit. The few times my torts have been inside with the AC on they reacted poorly to it and started yawning.


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## thatrebecca (Nov 8, 2013)

Nobody's coming out of their hides all day. Yesterday they each had a 45-minute soak, pooped and drank a long drink. But otherwise activity is nil. We think we'll make the transfer to their brumation boxes Sunday or Monday after another long soak and a weigh-in.

I'm still struggling to get temps right in the freezer. I've blocked off the windows in the shed. Yesterday was 84 here and temps in the freezer hovered in the mid-50s. I've got the freezer packed with water bottles, and a few of those gel packs you use as a hot or cold compress for back pain. Still not keeping it as cold as I'd like. I'm thinking of freezing a few of the water bottles to bring the temp down, and then letting them thaw in there before the torts go in. (Obviously I don't want anybody's box near something frozen, but the idea is to lower the temp for a few days before the torts go in and hope it holds).


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## ascott (Nov 8, 2013)

Rebecca, I am freaking out here....for fear of sounding like a nagging lady....my real concern has evolved to this; i know you are set on brumating the new torts...but a sound hibernacle is of the utmost importance....i would again suggest you overwinter these guys until you have a sound place for them to rest....please don't be upset with me....i just am compelled to share...

Is there no where in your home that is dark, quiet, cool ? I mean the bottom of a closet floor in the coolest room of the house?


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## thatrebecca (Nov 8, 2013)

Cooler than the 51-52 in the freezer? I don't think so. The house is in the mid-70s during the day. Even on the floor in a closet, I don't think it's cooler than 50. Are you able to keep temps in the 40s inside your house?

I visited the room they brumated in the last 3 years, the laundry in my neighbor's house. It was not as cool, dark or stable as the freezer is now.

If I'm not able to get temps adequately and consistently cool, I'm not going to stuff them in there and cross my fingers. My neighbor with a basement is willing to take the freezer. I'd preferred doing it on my property so I have the ability to check on them any time I want, but if that's not gonna work, I won't do it. 

I'm not 'set' on anything, by the way. If the torts showed any sign of illness, or if it turns out I can't provide an adequate space for them to brumate, I'll keep them up.


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## thatrebecca (Nov 9, 2013)

I double checked the brumation temps suggested by the California Turtle and Tortoise Club and they say to strive for temps between 40 and 55. Even on a day with highs in the mid-80s, I'm now in that range in the freezer. I'd like temps as perfect as I can get them, but I don't understand why the setup seems so dangerous to you, Angela. I created it using the advice and guidance of folks on here and I'm tweaking it daily to improve it before the torts go in. Help me understand...


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## ascott (Nov 9, 2013)

> Still not keeping it as cold as I'd like. _I'm thinking _of freezing a few of the water bottles to bring the temp down, and then letting them thaw in there before the torts go in.



Let me back up a bit.......I first need to say to you....my concern is derived from the fact that you are still "appearing" to hammer out the details (temps) for the location you are choosing....right? So, my concern is that in the temp/weather now, you are trying to achieve the temp window---however, what happens when there are cold spells and then spikes again? I am just seeing a frantic feeling coming over you not knowing exactly what will occur....does that make sense, I hope so....I do not want you to think that I am being negative simply because I am being straight forward with you....I am not, really.

The location that I have in my home that the torts brumate in here does remain steady....I know this because I have checked it and have had prior runs with it....just as you are working out the kinks...I just do not want you to feel the freak out that is potentially looming if you have a weird temp spike....so that is my concern..hell, I know a CDT is a hardy creature--if the tort has done well all season, this is a forgiving species....I mean I know torts that have made it a practice to crawl up under a bed on a cold floor and sleep all winter and wake and business as usual....so I suppose my real concern here is ending up to be your well being....lol....and well, a little for the newbie torts as well....


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## thatrebecca (Nov 9, 2013)

Haha well if you're worried about *my* well being in this whole brumation process, then you're right to be! I'll be a mess. Is it too weird to sleep in the shed with them their first night? Don't answer that. 

But seriously, I hope you don't mistake my tweaking for freaking. It's just my nature to keep fiddling to the bitter end. We've had a very warm week and temps are in range, so that's good.

I also intend to weigh them regularly, and of course will wake up a tort if anyone starts losing too much weight.


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## ascott (Nov 10, 2013)

.....


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## T33's Torts (Nov 10, 2013)

*Re: RE: DT brumaters thread 2013-2014*



thatrebecca said:


> Is it too weird to sleep in the shed with them their first night? Don't answer that.



Ehhh.... You're fine 
When my little itty bitty sulcatas first moved outside, I slept in a tent next to their enclosure 
You we're kidding, and I'm just insane


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## ascott (Nov 10, 2013)

> You we're kidding, and I'm just insane



Yeah, I don't think there was kidding there...and nothing insane about it at all....


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## thatrebecca (Nov 10, 2013)

They're in their boxes! This is so emotional. How do people ever have human children? Oy. Anyway, here's a little documentation of the day. 

Gomez getting in a last spa this morning:



Morticia at her weigh-in:



Morticia on orchid bark in her box within a box. She also has a small piece of camphor wood, which both torts have in their enclosures and seem to like, plus it helps with that torty smell:




Like his Dad, Gomez always has to have the remote control. Oh never mind it's the temp probe:



Boxes closed, newspapers on top of boxes, freezer held open with a screwdriver. There was about 2 minutes of rummaging noise in there and then it got quiet:



And now Mom is sitting in the shed listening for more rummaging... I feel like they just left for college.


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## T33's Torts (Nov 10, 2013)

*Re: RE: DT brumaters thread 2013-2014*



ascott said:


> > You we're kidding, and I'm just insane
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I don't think there was kidding there...and nothing insane about it at all....



Awe thanks


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## thatrebecca (Nov 10, 2013)

Alas, I'm not spending the night in the shed, but I did just go out for my first official toe tickle before I go to bed. I was happy to see them sleeping soundly, and to provoke a reassuring little twitch in response from each. The freezer is at 52, shed's at 61 and all's well.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Nov 10, 2013)

So cute. You. And your tortoise feeties. Night-night babies, night-night. : )


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Nov 11, 2013)

When it comes to our beloved gopherus - for all our tortoises really - I firmly believe, the more we know and experience and share, the better. I am therefore sharing this information with y'all. It comes from a very knowledgeable and respected keeper, rescuer and of course, big fan of gopherus, like we all are. Yay! : )

Hi all, 
Don in Bakersfield, Ca, here:
I use the word brumation rather than hibernation, they donâ€™t truly hibernate, but it doesnâ€™t matter what you use, just that we understand what works and what may not. 

First, my three adults are still up daily, out sunning but not eating. 
The three hatchlings born September 16th are still up too, not eating, but drinking water daily. 

â€œTo hibernate or not to hibernateâ€:
Old school thoughts were that since people did not understand the proper method of brumation (hibernation) of hatchlings and they lost so many during that first winter, they should be kept up until 3 or 4 years old. This generally involved keeping them in aquarium tanks, under heat lights or on heat pads, trying to keep them awake with temperatures @ 90-95F and there were often problems with it. Shared experiences from many keepers indicated that those allowed to follow natural cycle of brumation were healthier come spring and we are trying to get people to change to following Nature where possible. 

As Cindy notes, they donâ€™t want to stay up, there are major drawbacks to keeping them up (i.e. dehydration due gas heaters, heat lights and/or heat pads (NO NO), as well as resultant issues with pyramiding and other Metabolic Bone Diseases manifestations that many of us started paying attention to what Nature does. 

I have successfully brumated almost 200 hatchling desert tortoises in the last 15 years (most from rescues and some from in house hatchings from rescue females that dug nests and laid eggs) and have only lost a total of 2!!!! 
I allow them to brumate in a natural dug burrow where possible; barring that I utilize a box with dirt in it, hide boxes covered with dirt and monitor it for temperature and humidity levels. I strive to keep temperatures @ 50F, humidity levels at least 50% and very often, depending on my location, @ 70%. 
NONE of the ones brumated developed the pyramided shells and to the best of my knowledge, none have developed bladder stones either (a common occurrence in those kept up for first years with no microclimate available since all it seems to take is one incident of dehydration to start the little grain of sand sized bladder stone calculi in the little critters )

http://www.tortoise trust.org/ articles/ newhibernation.html has a ton of good information on this topic, as does the care sheet at http://www.tortoise .org/general/ descare.html 

FOR THOSE that have to keep them up due to illness, best recommendation is to try to keep them at temperatures of @ 80-85F daytime, dropping @ 10F during night, provide area where they can get sunlight during warmer days (through glass will NOT provide UVB rays, needs to be outside even if only for an hour in a protected sunny area so they can warm and get UVB rays). 
For the enclosure, they need to have a temperature gradient available, warm at one end and cooler at other, thus the glass tanks donâ€™t work well, an old bookcase actually works better if laid on side, allows better air flow and better temp gradient areas. You can try the UVB lamps, my experience has been that they lose their UVB output very rapidly, often totally dead within six months. 

Don Williams, (Moderator: CTTC Turtle and Tortoise list ; Gopherus;
Vets_for_herps; TortoiseNutrition)
*--*--*--*-- *--*--*-- *--*
May You Walk in Beauty
Don :~)> and his desert torts in Bakersfield, CA.
Donsdeserttortoises .com KernCTTC.org (Webmaster) Tortoise.org


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## thatrebecca (Nov 11, 2013)

Thanks for sharing, BeeBee. Really interesting stuff. I was surprised to read that his torts are still up and sunning -- I thought mine were fairly late to go down compared to others.

It was interesting this afternoon to see how much they had slowed after a 24-hour period in their boxes. I had to tickle harder to get a response, especially from Gomez, who seems really out. The freezer held a temp of 53 today -- pretty good cause we were sunny with a high of 85.

The hardest part so far is just that I miss them. It was weird to come home from work and not get them into their night boxes like usual. Now I've started talking to the black widow who lives over the sink, cause there's no other outlet for my maternal energy. She tolerates me.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Nov 11, 2013)

Here, behind the Orange Curtain, the folks I know that have CDTs, same thing. My poor neighbors. Been hounding them all with questions and updates. Inquiring minds want to know! OC-CDTs are not eating, but sunning and drinking a little still. My bro has our four family heirlooms in Santa Barbara, same. I seem to remember a funny thing. My gramps had a block wall, not anywhere near the tortoises, that had Virginia creeper vine (toxic, do not feed) on it, attached like they do to the concrete blocks. He pointed this out one day: When the leaves on that vine had turned a certain darkish burgundy red and were starting to fall off, that's when the tortoises were out for the count for sure. And in the spring, when the vine started to green up and leaf out, shiny new leaves, shortly thereafter, the little heads and dreamy green eyes would pop out of their "bunkers" (how grand-papa called burrows ... WW2 war speak, I guess). My brother planted Virginia creeper for that reason also. Again, far away from the tortoises but as a measure of weather/season change.


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## thatrebecca (Nov 11, 2013)

So interesting. I love the Virginia creeper anecdote!


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## ascott (Nov 11, 2013)

> Now I've started talking to the black widow who lives over the sink, cause there's no other outlet for my maternal energy. She tolerates me.



No no....you stop it....those chicks are not to be trusted.....over the sink? In the house?.....I am cringing out of control here....


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## thatrebecca (Nov 12, 2013)

ascott said:


> > Now I've started talking to the black widow who lives over the sink, cause there's no other outlet for my maternal energy. She tolerates me.
> 
> 
> 
> No no....you stop it....those chicks are not to be trusted.....over the sink? In the house?.....I am cringing out of control here....



IN THE HOUSE. This is what tortoise separation anxiety does to a woman. She lowers her standards to deadly arachnids. And gets weird. On my morning run I'm checking out everybody's dog like some creepy guy who checks out other men's girlfriends. 

Does it get easier, this brumation separation?


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## ascott (Nov 12, 2013)

> Does it get easier, this brumation separation?



It must----because I have no desire to make nice nice with a black widow.....



> On my morning run I'm checking out everybody's dog like some creepy guy who checks out other men's girlfriends.



oh and...LLLMMMMAAAOOOFFFFF....just don't make eye contact...lol


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## thatrebecca (Nov 13, 2013)

OK, question of the day: how often is TOO often to check on your brumating torts? Since they went down on Sunday I've been toe tickling twice a day. Am I actually waking them up when I check on them, or is it a reflex response? If I'm interfering with their brumation by checking so frequently, I'll start just going into the shed to check temps twice a day, but not opening the freezer each time.


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## 65redroses (Nov 13, 2013)

I'm nervous too. I have two California desert torts that have slowed way down. But I'm up and down of what to do. So today I'm not feeding them anymore. I am soaking them really good today. They seem very heavy and sturdy to me. I'm also going to shut there lights off and just go for it. Going to place them in a card board box with some shredded news paper and put them in a cool dark space. What do you think?


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## thatrebecca (Nov 13, 2013)

65redroses said:


> I'm nervous too. I have two California desert torts that have slowed way down. But I'm up and down of what to do. So today I'm not feeding them anymore. I am soaking them really good today. They seem very heavy and sturdy to me. I'm also going to shut there lights off and just go for it. Going to place them in a card board box with some shredded news paper and put them in a cool dark space. What do you think?



My instinct would be to keep your guys up this year, via plenty of daytime light and heat, and start thinking about brumating next year. You might want to stick a temp probe in the spot you have in mind now and monitor temps, so you'll have a good idea if the location is right come this time next year. 

Other folks on here with experience over-wintering can give you tips on keeping them up. Every tort/home/situation is different, but what is pretty consistently true is that brumating in a healthful way takes a prep and planning.


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## 65redroses (Nov 13, 2013)

So many people I know that live in my area just put them in a box and put them in a closet. They never seem anxious or nervous. So what's up with me. Another guy just puts his tort in a bucket and puts him under his house. They just make it seem that it's really not a big deal. And all these torts do fine.


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## thatrebecca (Nov 13, 2013)

65redroses said:


> So many people I know that live in my area just put them in a box and put them in a closet. They never seem anxious or nervous. So what's up with me. Another guy just puts his tort in a bucket and puts him under his house. They just make it seem that it's really not a big deal. And all these torts do fine.



There's nothing wrong with being nervous -- it means you care! And I think it's a natural response for a first-timer. The important thing is to make an informed choice about what's right for you and your torts. 

In my case, I am going against the conventional wisdom to over-winter a tort the first year you have it. I made the decision based on a number of factors, including that my torts have brumated every year since they were hatchlings, and that their prior keeper told me he did that because he had a difficult time keeping them up.

That's not true in your case as I understand it -- your torts haven't brumated before. And I don't see any advantage to you rushing into it this year, regardless of how easy some of your neighbors say it is for them.

Just my two cents.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Nov 13, 2013)

I agree. It is best to be safe than sorry. I posted on a different thread on how my neighbor lost hers during brumation when I was kid. I have never forgotten her anguish. And she never really coped well with the loss of her beloved tortoise. Never got another even though she was offered by other neighbors when they moved out of state. A bit much, but it is heart breaking to lose a beloved pet especially when it can be avoided with extra precaution. Read and re-read everyone's insight, and make a super informed decision. My possible CDT-Texas that I adopted 2 months ago is staying up so I can be sure he is building up, for next year. I do not know him well enough to let him sleep. The whole 4 month fast, is exactly that, a 4 month fast. If they do not have enough built up and if we do not keep them suspended in that temp range that they need and they start to use reserves because it is warm, bam. Below is a copy/paste from donsdeserttortoises.com. 

For the whole care sheet, this is the link: http://www.donsdeserttortoises.com/2.html

HIBERNATION â€“ This species hibernates in nature, after careful research and provision of a cool dry location this can be provided for your tortoise. DO NOT HIBERNATE IN PLASTIC OR RUBBERMAID CONTAINERS, AIR CIRCULATION/BREATHING IS REQUIRED. Instead, use a â€œdouble box-in-boxâ€ method with insulating material (newspapers) placed in between the two boxes. Tortoises that have been sick should not be hibernated but should be kept up through the winter with @ 13-14 hours of UVB lighting and temps @ 80-90 F. on the â€œhotâ€ side of enclosure and @ 70-75F. on the â€œcoolâ€ side, with night temps @ 10 degrees lower. 

HIBERNATION (Actually Brumation, an extreme slowing of metabolism, regulated by temperature and hours or daylight.) 

*******Do not hibernate a sick or injured tortoise or one that has been treated that summer for illness. It is also generally not recommended that you "hibernate" a new tortoise since you may not know it's health history.******


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## ascott (Nov 13, 2013)

> So many people I know that live in my area just put them in a box and put them in a closet. They never seem anxious or nervous. So what's up with me. Another guy just puts his tort in a bucket and puts him under his house. They just make it seem that it's really not a big deal. And all these torts do fine.



Likely the torts you reference are healthy and hydrated---so this is logical.....

My Grandma had a CDT that lived with her for as long as I can remember and then when her second oldest son (my uncle) moved out as an adult he took Tiny with him and he lived for a ton more years....Tiny would slow and know it was time...her house had painted wood floors (old huh) and he would go up under a bed all the way to the head of the bed and would remain there for the entire winter...then would mosey his way on out when it began to warm up....(Grandma would offer him up watermelon and then put him out for the warmer weather---he was also allowed to come in and out of the house as he desired).....and keep in mind the house had all us brats running and screaming and fussing all the time... When we were kids we even painted poor old Tiny (who knew it was not good---he sure did look pretty---not advocating the bling but just sharing)....

I believe if you begin now to prep your tort for brumation next winter then all should run smoothly----and I know that my goal each season that the men wake up here is to begin to prep them for brumation ---so the goal is to assure that they are as plump (not fat) and juicied up (hydrated) as possible---then if there are a few times the temps jump a day or two (due to our cali weather) there is no need for freak out....


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## thatrebecca (Nov 13, 2013)

Wowzers! It hit 97 in the back yard today, but the freezer held at 55. Who'd a thought we'd have such a hot one in the middle of November? An early test for the freezer and it passed. Glad my guys are keeping cool. Hope everybody else in SoCal whose torts are down already is having luck as well.


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## ascott (Nov 14, 2013)

> I've been toe tickling twice a day.



Giggling like a 5 year old here... I think you need an intervention....perhaps let a few days go past and then give em a slight touch once a day and then wean yourself back to once a week...
What you are doing is simply trying to achieve a quick breath to assure they are clear and not raspy....


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## thatrebecca (Nov 14, 2013)

ascott said:


> > I've been toe tickling twice a day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You would be proud of me, Angela -- I did not toe tickle today! But I don't understand the quick breath thing. Sometimes they retract into their shells when I touch them, but I don't hear any particular breathing noise. 

Incidentally, yet another sunny, 90+ day here and the freezer stayed in the low 50s. With temps expected to drop 20 degrees tomorrow, I'm pleased that the setup is so far, so good.


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## thatrebecca (Nov 17, 2013)

We raked the yard here in LA today and have a ton of dead leaves from crepe myrtle, magnolia, ficus and camphor trees. I was thinking of tucking some in with my brumating DTs, who are currently on orchid bark in their cardboard boxes within boxes. Any reason not to? Seems like they would like the cover, wouldn't they? The leaves are dry.


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## ascott (Nov 17, 2013)

Yes...


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## thatrebecca (Nov 21, 2013)

Woke up this morning to raindrops falling on my head -- the roof directly over our bed has a leak. Argh. 

Since it was really coming down I went outside to check on the shed where the torts are brumating and it's dry as a bone. Maybe we should move in with them for the winter. Those little leaf beds look cozy all if a sudden.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 21, 2013)

thatrebecca said:


> We raked the yard here in LA today and have a ton of dead leaves from crepe myrtle, magnolia, ficus and camphor trees. I was thinking of tucking some in with my brumating DTs, who are currently on orchid bark in their cardboard boxes within boxes. Any reason not to? Seems like they would like the cover, wouldn't they? The leaves are dry.



Dry leaves would be fine. I generally shred newspaper and fill the boxes with it.


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## ascott (Nov 21, 2013)

> the roof directly over our bed has a leak



Ah man, that totally sucks....such a bummer when something gives way at the least desired time....


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## wildchild6771 (Nov 21, 2013)

My older tortoise decided to go against my wishes and hibernate himself in his burrow he dug. I was worried sick last night due to the heavy rain we got. Well, he must have realized I was right and decided to come out this morning. He's now safely tucked into his winter box and will be staying in the shed. 

I can finally relax!


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## thatrebecca (Nov 21, 2013)

wildchild6771 said:


> My older tortoise decided to go against my wishes and hibernate himself in his burrow he dug. I was worried sick last night due to the heavy rain we got. Well, he must have realized I was right and decided to come out this morning. He's now safely tucked into his winter box and will be staying in the shed.
> 
> I can finally relax!



Glad to hear it! With that being our first big rain of the season here in SoCal, I was wondering if some torts would be reconsidering their digs for the season. I was sure glad to know my guys are inside.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Nov 24, 2013)

With temperatures coming and going between cold and warm, have any burrow brumaters popped out? I ask because my neighbor's tortoise was strolling along singing his song about noon-ish today. She called me to come over and we watched it from the kitchen. Took a bite of something , walked into the little concrete indentation where they keep the water, walked in, walked out and has been sunny himself for well over an hour. Sleep walking? Wishing it was still summer? Normal or odd behavior? The temps are 66 and sunny. This boy was out for the count around Halloween time, so about 3 weeks now.


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## thatrebecca (Nov 24, 2013)

BeeBee*BeeLeaves said:


> With temperatures coming and going between cold and warm, have any burrow brumaters popped out? I ask because my neighbor's tortoise was strolling along singing his song about noon-ish today. She called me to come over and we watched it from the kitchen. Took a bite of something , walked into the little concrete indentation where they keep the water, walked in, walked out and has been sunny himself for well over an hour. Sleep walking? Wishing it was still summer? Normal or odd behavior? The temps are 66 and sunny. This boy was out for the count around Halloween time, so about 3 weeks now.



Wow, I'll be interested to hear if anyone else has had an outdoor brumater pop out.

Today marks two weeks since my guys went down in their boxes. I made it an entire week without a toe tickle (it's OK if you want to applaud!). Today when I checked weights I was delighted to see that neither tort has lost an ounce! The freezer held temps this week between 46 and 51, so that must be a good zone for them.

I had been planning to give them a soak at the 1-month mark, just to make sure hydration is good. Is there any reason I shouldn't?


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## Carol S (Nov 25, 2013)

I have three desert tortoises. Two are asleep in their man made hide/burrow and have not come out for around 4-5 days; however, the third one (who is the most nosey one) does not want to go to sleep. He still comes out every morning even if it is not a sunny day. It was sunny this morning (Sunday) and he spent the day laying in the sun. I live in Alta Loma, California. All three of the tortoises were grazing last week. The weather has been so strange - going from 90+ degrees one day to cold and raining a few days later.


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## thatrebecca (Nov 25, 2013)

Carol S said:


> I have three desert tortoises. Two are asleep in their man made hide/burrow and have not come out for around 4-5 days; however, the third one (who is the most nosey one) does not want to go to sleep. He still comes out every morning even if it is not a sunny day. It was sunny this morning (Sunday) and he spent the day laying in the sun. I live in Alta Loma, California. All three of the tortoises were grazing last week. The weather has been so strange - going from 90+ degrees one day to cold and raining a few days later.



I love that your nosy guy is still coming out every day. Hearing about so many DTs still out and about, it makes me think I set up mine in their boxes too early.


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## Carol S (Nov 25, 2013)

Today was sunny (Monday) and two of my three desert tortoises came out. Of course, the nosey one came out, warmed up and was walking around checking things out. The other one, which I thought was asleep for the winter, came out and was out sunning himself this afternoon.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Nov 25, 2013)

Today was indeed an amazing day and the reason we put up with so much doodoo in California. Great weather. My neighbor's big boy was out again. She did not notice him eating but he once again went in to his water, not once but several times. I find this very interesting. Any more CDTs out there beside's my neighbor and Carol S's doing this? Carol S, did yours start to wind down prior to Halloween also, and "in bed" by Halloween, do you recall?


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Nov 25, 2013)

Went to read the Utah, Arizona and CTTC care sheets. From the CTTC one: "If the tortoise should waken during a mid-winter warm spell, water may be offered, BUT DO NOT FEED. As weather cools again, encourage it to return to sleep." Alrighty then.


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## thatrebecca (Nov 26, 2013)

BeeBee*BeeLeaves said:


> Went to read the Utah, Arizona and CTTC care sheets. From the CTTC one: "If the tortoise should waken during a mid-winter warm spell, water may be offered, BUT DO NOT FEED. As weather cools again, encourage it to return to sleep." Alrighty then.



That makes sense to me. Since my torts are in their controlled environment of the freezer, the biggest 'warm spell' they experience is in the mid 50s, even when it's 90 out. What I wonder is, should I wake them for a soak at some point this winter, or just let them be? They're not experiencing the hot temps that would dehydrate them in there, but they are going a loooong time without water. Can't decide what to do.


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## Carol S (Nov 26, 2013)

BeeBee*BeeLeaves said:


> Today was indeed an amazing day and the reason we put up with so much doodoo in California. Great weather. My neighbor's big boy was out again. She did not notice him eating but he once again went in to his water, not once but several times. I find this very interesting. Any more CDTs out there beside's my neighbor and Carol S's doing this? Carol S, did yours start to wind down prior to Halloween also, and "in bed" by Halloween, do you recall?



By Halloween my three desert tortoises were still coming out each morning and were still eating, although MUCH less. It has only been in the last week or so that one of the three has not come out at all. The second one came out yesterday and today. Prior to that he had not come out for around 4 days or so. Then we have the nosey one who comes out EVERY day, cloudy or sunny weather. I guess they know what they are doing. I think the weird weather has then somewhat confused.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Nov 26, 2013)

YouTube video: Tortoise Group (Nevada) September 28, 2013 meeting > Brumation presentation starts at about 14:10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX8KLjld_rs


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## ascott (Nov 27, 2013)

Apologies, I find that these types of presentations are exactly what creates poor information....I forced myself to watch this until I could no longer stomach the information being offered....


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Nov 27, 2013)

Angela, what parts? I guess I was picking and choosing on bits to piece things together on what my neighbor wanted to know. She's afraid her CDT will use up reserves before it get cold-cold. So I was shutting off things I did not need to know.


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## ascott (Nov 27, 2013)

I just feel like all that was being gone over was very text book vs healthy in reality....does that make sense? I was really twisted at the part where the person said some torts are kept from eating for a while before going down and some just eat--so let them do what they want....this bothered me the most...along with referencing this species as a "pet"--I am really annoyed when something is referenced as a pet and a tortoise is certainly not a pet---by no description of the word and therefore should not be treated as such...but hell, I don't even consider a canine a "pet"....this seems to make them equate to disposable....also along with the idea in the vid that euthanizing a protected species as well, an alternative.... Also, I know that Desert Torts are from designated areas and in those areas they are expected to survive without exception, well, that is just not the case--so the reference to keeping them in an outdoor natural dug burrow is not complete and accurate information---for you see, while I love relatively close to their natural land I am in an area that would not be first choice for a DT---the area is low in flood level and therefore not a desirable outdoor location for natural outdoor brumation---flooding would be a huge issue (I know this 100%) yet this was not even mentioned...so an uninformed host would use this info and likely end up with a dead/drowned tort at the end of winter and would simply mark it up as a failed brumation at discovery in spring---but nothing would indicate this at that time--would just be a dead tort at spring, so would be marked up as a failed brumation and not a human error/drowning....you see what I mean? There are a gazillion reasons indoor brumation is favorable...also, advising some silly suggestion to place a lid of water in a box with a young tort to assure dehydration does not occur is just insulting....

There are a grip of things I could go down the list on....but it would tear down in entirety almost the entire vid....

This is even without touching on the BS spewed about sterilizing this species of tort----uggghhhhh.....I will stop now


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Nov 27, 2013)

Excellent, excellent insight. Now I am kinda glad I linked it because it allowed these thoughts to be presented. Excellent points. Thanks Angela! Makes this forum and our interactions as tortoise keepers here, that much more important, in my opinion. And vital! : )


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## thatrebecca (Dec 1, 2013)

Today marks 3 weeks since Gomez and Morticia have been down and I have a couple questions for you experienced brumaters. Temps for them this week ranged between 42 and 50.

1) Today when I toe tickled -- their first check-in in a week-- it was much harder to get any kind of a response from them. I really had to pester them to get the smallest twitch. Is that something I should be concerned about, or is it merely a sign that they are deep in their brumation? 

2) So far they're holding their weight, but they did look a little dry to me. Would it be OK and/or advisable to wake them up at the four-week point for a soak, and then slowly (over a few hours) cool them back down?

Thanks in advance for any replies. I want to make sure I'm doing right by these guys.


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## T33's Torts (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: RE: DT brumaters thread 2013-2014*



thatrebecca said:


> Today marks 3 weeks since Gomez and Morticia have been down and I have a couple questions for you experienced brumaters. Temps for them this week ranged between 42 and 50.
> 
> 1) Today when I toe tickled -- their first check-in in a week-- it was much harder to get any kind of a response from them. I really had to pester them to get the smallest twitch. Is that something I should be concerned about, or is it merely a sign that they are deep in their brumation?
> 
> ...



I'm not experienced, but..
1) I'd say you're fine.
2) I would think waking them up is bad.


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## ascott (Dec 1, 2013)

Some days they respond quickly and other days they take a moment...and the main reason for the tickle is to listen for a clear reflex breath and not wet and raspy moreover than the quickness with reply....

If their weight is good then likely you are fine to let be...however, it is aok to bring a tort out to soak the tort ---I would suggest however to not offer a "warm" water soak but more like a cooler (not cold) soak and would not set them in brightest room to do so...then after a soak go ahead and pat em dry and place em back into their hibernacle.... and lights back out...


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## thatrebecca (Dec 2, 2013)

ascott said:


> Some days they respond quickly and other days they take a moment...and the main reason for the tickle is to listen for a clear reflex breath and not wet and raspy moreover than the quickness with reply....
> 
> If their weight is good then likely you are fine to let be...however, it is aok to bring a tort out to soak the tort ---I would suggest however to not offer a "warm" water soak but more like a cooler (not cold) soak and would not set them in brightest room to do so...then after a soak go ahead and pat em dry and place em back into their hibernacle.... and lights back out...



Thanks, Tiffany and Angela, for your replies. It's funny, only once have I heard a breath when I check on them. Their heads are pulled in their shells. I don't even understand how they breathe in there.

If I do give them a soak then, tepid water in a dark room? I know it can't be hot, but I fear cool water could make them sick.


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## T33's Torts (Dec 2, 2013)

*Re: RE: DT brumaters thread 2013-2014*



thatrebecca said:


> ascott said:
> 
> 
> > Some days they respond quickly and other days they take a moment...and the main reason for the tickle is to listen for a clear reflex breath and not wet and raspy moreover than the quickness with reply....
> ...



Welcome. Tepid... on the cooler side of room temperature


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## thatrebecca (Dec 2, 2013)

OK thanks. It still freaks me out how little they moved in response to my touch. Trying to be zen about it. :/

I think I will do a dark, tepid soak next weekend.


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## T33's Torts (Dec 2, 2013)

They'll be fine  
I have faith!


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## ascott (Dec 2, 2013)

> how little they moved in response to my touch.



So have you been able to get a response of some type?...a breath, a quick retreat into the shell?


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## thatrebecca (Dec 2, 2013)

ascott said:


> > how little they moved in response to my touch.
> 
> 
> 
> So have you been able to get a response of some type?...a breath, a quick retreat into the shell?



Barely. They're already pulled into their shells when I open their boxes. If I poke a foot pretty hard I get a tiny twitch, like a slow reflex response. It's much less of a response than I got the first week they were down, which is why it startled me. I've also lowered temps about 5 degrees since that first week, from an average of 52 to an average of 47.


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## thatrebecca (Dec 3, 2013)

ascott said:


> > how little they moved in response to my touch.
> 
> 
> 
> So have you been able to get a response of some type?...a breath, a quick retreat into the shell?



Barely. They're already pulled into their shells when I open their boxes. If I poke a foot pretty hard I get a tiny twitch, like a slow reflex response. It's much less of a response than I got the first week they were down, which is why it concerns me. I've also lowered temps about 5 degrees since that first week, from an average of 52 to an average of 47.


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## ascott (Dec 3, 2013)

Hmmm? I have never had a time that the men folk here have not responded to my advances P).

The men folk here are completely laid out in their boxes though...once in awhile they will have turned a different direction from one peek to another....is the place you have them in completely dark? Do you have something measuring humidity? How do their eyes look? (I know they are closed but I mean the eye area as a whole)..

You gave their weight not too long ago...how did you get that weight? I mean did they wake up for the weigh in?


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## thatrebecca (Dec 3, 2013)

ascott said:


> Hmmm? I have never had a time that the men folk here have not responded to my advances P).
> 
> The men folk here are completely laid out in their boxes though...once in awhile they will have turned a different direction from one peek to another....is the place you have them in completely dark? Do you have something measuring humidity? How do their eyes look? (I know they are closed but I mean the eye area as a whole)..
> 
> You gave their weight not too long ago...how did you get that weight? I mean did they wake up for the weigh in?



Their boxes are in total darkness -- inside a non-working, cracked chest freezer in a shed with dark curtains. I don't have something measuring humidity, only temps.

Their heads are completely pulled inside their shells, so I can't check their eyes, and they did not come out when I weighed them (I kept the lights dim and did it in the shed, so they weren't out of their boxes for more than a minute or two). There was no movement when I plopped them on the scale, and just the scarcest reflexive pull inward when I poked hard on their feet. 

Gomez went in at 17.2 oz, Morticia at 12.3. After 3 weeks, Gomez is at 17.1, Morticia at 12.2, which is within the range of less than 1% body weight loss every two weeks suggested by CTTC. 

It concerns me to learn that your guys are always so responsive. Is something wrong?


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## ascott (Dec 3, 2013)

> It concerns me to learn that your guys are always so responsive. Is something wrong?



I only asked questions because I am always curious and not as a line to something going wrong 

Also, remember the men folk here are all adult males who have done this, a few times to say the least....they are laid out fully extended most times I peek...so when I touch them they hiss/expel and then resume right back to the position they were in...

You have youngins and this is their first time in their hibernacle....have you decided what amount of time you will let them brumate/wake date ...or are you going to let them lead what happens?


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## thatrebecca (Dec 3, 2013)

ascott said:


> > It concerns me to learn that your guys are always so responsive. Is something wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for asking! And for indulging my anxieties. 

I had planned to let them go 12 weeks as long as they're healthy in there -- waking them in early Feb.

Nervous Nelly that I am I checked again tonight and got a wonderfully reassuring hiss from Morticia. Oh it made me so happy! And Gomez wriggled too. 

So I'll let them be now till their next weigh-in on Sunday, and if they've lost weight I'll do a soak then. I wish their heads were out so I could check them, but at least they're responsive.


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## ascott (Dec 3, 2013)

All sounds fine as you describe....and when you weight them will you try to get a pic of their little faces (without waking/bothering them that is )....


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## thatrebecca (Dec 8, 2013)

At their 4-week weigh-in today, neither Gomez nor Morticia had lost even 1/10th of an oz. Both torts were responsive to touch, and both are still completely inside their shells. They look dry to me, but because their weight hasn't changed and their temps were very cool this week, I'm opting not to do a soak this week. 

Here are pix. Let me know what you think. Do they look in need of a soak to you? 

Gomez:



Morticia:


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## ascott (Dec 8, 2013)

Look aok to me.....if they are resting appropriately then I would not jump start them with a soak.....you have been able to see their eyes and if all looks good there they you will likely be ok with letting them continue their beauty sleep....


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## thatrebecca (Dec 8, 2013)

ascott said:


> Look aok to me.....if they are resting appropriately then I would not jump start them with a soak.....you have been able to see their eyes and if all looks good there they you will likely be ok with letting them continue their beauty sleep....



Good to know, thanks. Alas, I haven't seen their eyes since the first week they were down. They stay tucked in, even when I tickle, just flinching a bit but never showing their faces.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Dec 8, 2013)

Ahhhh, thatrebecca, they are all snug, tight. Isn't it just so mind blowing that they basically shut down, play possum during these months? The whole thing still boggles my mind. Night night babies. 

Any Gopherus-Go-Go girls or guys out there wanna share how your tortoises are doing in their slumber. Anyone losing weight and having to soak? Anyone having to bring them back and keeping them up for whatever reason? 

My neighbor has been keeping track of her CDT and it is averaging a temp of mid 50's to mid to high 60's, a few times 70's (those hot days we had) in a box within a box in the garage. She is worried about reserves being used too soon. I do not know if it has lost any weight, will have to ask her.


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## thatrebecca (Dec 10, 2013)

Holy cow, the temp in the torts's freezer got down to 41 last night, as we had a nighttime low in the mid 30s. I like keeping them cool, but that's about as cool as I want it to go.

BeeBee, your neighbor's temps seem a little high. My understanding is we should try to keep them bet 40-55. I think a warm day here or there isn't a bother, but consistently warm is.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Dec 11, 2013)

thatrebecca said:


> BeeBee, your neighbor's temps seem a little high. My understanding is we should try to keep them bet 40-55. I think a warm day here or there isn't a bother, but consistently warm is.



Thanks thatrebecca. Yes, that's what I thought. I got a temp gun for her and asked her to please shoot that infrared and let's see what they are averaging. I like hearing about your progress and consistent temperatures in the fridge you got for your little Addams Family values! (snaps fingers, twice).


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## thatrebecca (Dec 15, 2013)

Wow, it's a warm one here in LA -- 83 degrees in the back yard today. And tomorrow is supposed to get up to 85. It's got me wondering if this would be a good time for a brumation break soak.

Torts are at 47 degrees today in their freezer and at their 5-week weigh-in point, Morticia has lost 1/10th of an oz since last week and Gomez's weight is no different.

To soak or not to soak: that is the question.


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## ascott (Dec 15, 2013)

If their weight is holding ...my gut would say to let them rest....again, that is just my thoughts...you will need to determine what your gut is telling you to do dear...


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## thatrebecca (Dec 15, 2013)

ascott said:


> If their weight is holding ...my gut would say to let them rest....again, that is just my thoughts...you will need to determine what your gut is telling you to do dear...



Yep, that's what my gut said too. Somehow it seems like it would be stressful to be waked up and then put back down. And since their setup is maintaining good temps and good weights, I'm gonna let them be.


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## thatrebecca (Dec 22, 2013)

Today marks 6 weeks, which is officially our halfway point if all goes as planned on our first brumation together. I'm pleased to report that no one has lost even 1/10th of an ounce in the last 3 weeks. I'm not even sure how that's possible, but I guess that's part of the wonder of tortoises. 

This was the first time when I checked on them that one of the torts-- Gomez-- came of out his shell and I was able see his eyes, which were closed. 

I decided to give them a tepid 20-minute soak in the darkness of the shed. The first thing they both did was fart. Gomez was content in there the whole time but Morticia scrambled to get out after 10 minutes so I took her out early. Both torts opened their eyes after a couple moments in the soak. Now they're drying off before going back in their boxes. They're pretty dopey. One thing that concerned me was some whiteness around Gomez's eyes. 

Darn the app isn't letting me upload pix. I'd like to show you Gomez's eye to hear what folks think. It looked like what I look like in the morning when I have 'sleep' in my eye.


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## thatrebecca (Dec 22, 2013)

Reloaded the app and got pix to work. Here's what Gomez's eye looks like:



And here is Morticia:


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Dec 22, 2013)

Awwwww! Gomez's face, so whatcha talking about Willis cute. Morticia, so out of it. Bless their little resting hearts! : )


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## thatrebecca (Dec 22, 2013)

BeeBee*BeeLeaves said:


> Awwwww! Gomez's face, so whatcha talking about Willis cute. Morticia, so out of it. Bless their little resting hearts! : )



Haha you're so right, BeeBee. Gomez gave me the ultimate WTF face.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Dec 22, 2013)

Yep, that's the face! Where's Angela? She would know better what the eye boogies are. Hopefully she or Yvonne know what it iz.


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## ascott (Dec 23, 2013)

I would pull them out and set them up in a warm environment. Here is why;


The eyes are such an indicator of possible issues (not something that you have done but likely already quietly present and likely "likely" related to stress)

Whitish stuff around the eyes can be an indicator of a variety of things...of which I will not guess as guessing does nothing. 

Now, you can likely leave them be and do nothing and will they survive....sure, they can, this is a forgiving species that can endure alot---but keep in mind you do not know what all they endured before coming to you... if you pull them please slowly wake them (please do this process very slowly especially if the eyes are not desirable) you can better evaluate them.....and if their eyes are not great, this is what I would do....again, simply what I would do. I mean, this is your first trial run and it is not uncommon for a shorter brumation to be offered for the first time around....


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## Taco-Taco (Dec 26, 2013)

I know I should probably read all 10 pages of this thread but I'm an absolute wreck right now. I am so worried about our little dude. He's probably 1 yo or less as he is so small. I've read he may be too young to fully hibernate so we've kept him topside but I am a new DT mommy and I miss my active, ravenous lil dude. He wont eat and I suppose that is my major concern. Its been about a week since he last ate & since then has had some mega mondo poops (in the water bowl). I really need some words of hope here as I wipe my tears away.
This morning he looked like a clay figurine: very dry...so i gave him a quick bath. Figured he may get a bit of water down. He is so little and helpless & feel completely out of my element here as a mom; I feel helpless myself, not knowing what the heck to expect or to do.
I'm in So Cal where it's hot today. I brought him out and he walked about some but still no nibbling so I bathed him, wrapped in warm towel & put in his habitat.
What should I be doing? When can I expect him to eat again? Seriously, 2 months sounds so long wihtout food of any sort.
I don't want to lose this little guy but fear I'm not going to be able to keep him properly & maybe we should find him a proper home. Someone who has done this before & knows what they are doing. I want Taco-taco to live & thrive.
Any words of wisdom or advice will be greatly appreciated and I thank you in advance!


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Dec 26, 2013)

He is responding to the winter and the shorter days and basically trying to go into a brumation stage BUT he is less than a year old, you just got him and you really should set him up to be up and NOT going into brumination/hibernation. That means his habitat indoors must have lights on 12-14 hours a day as if it was spring-summer time and keeping his temperatures up. Also, because temps are up, you also want to make sure his habitat has the humidity going on as if he was in the desert in a burrow, or under plant pallets where despite it being a desert, humidity exists. This keeps baby from being dessicated and jerky. Even though it is hot, our days are winter short and just like trees losing their green leaves and turning color, not by hot or not, but by length of days, your CDT is reacting to that, albeit confusingly. Also, soak daily. They must stay hydrated. When in brumation, they have to have empty stomachs which is why your baby has been releasing everything from inside. Empty stomach-full bladder I think moderator Jacqui wrote on a thread. Perfectly said. BUT again, keep that baby up this year. To be sure you do not mess up and lose him. Better safe, than sad-sad-sad. Today is a perfect day to get those big huge Christmas tree boxes on sale. That would be a good way to go to create a closed chamber for baby in the next week. Or if you have any aquarium, time to close her up and get those lights on for 12-14 hours. Also, when it is sunny, like today at 83 degrees, outside for 15-20 minutes, supervised for the free UVB from the sun that is vital for them to get that D3 and to get strong bones and shells. Hope this helps. Breathe. And proceed. For baby. Keep us posted.


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## Taco-Taco (Dec 27, 2013)

Hi again. I do appreciate your help. This is my last post. Our lil dude passed away last night. Obviously he didn't get what he needed but I did try so very hard. I just don't think he was strong enough. We are all extremely sad here. Again, I thank you.


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## ascott (Dec 27, 2013)

> Hi again. I do appreciate your help. This is my last post. Our lil dude passed away last night. Obviously he didn't get what he needed but I did try so very hard. _I just don't think he was strong enough_. We are all extremely sad here. Again, I thank you.



Sometimes they just don't thrive....there are so many variables that little one likely faced ever before arriving with you....Rest in peace little


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Dec 27, 2013)

Oh man. I am so very sorry. Angela is right. So much before one gets them can trigger it. They are fragile in a sense. I am sad with you. : (


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## thatrebecca (Dec 29, 2013)

Taco-Taco said:


> Hi again. I do appreciate your help. This is my last post. Our lil dude passed away last night. Obviously he didn't get what he needed but I did try so very hard. I just don't think he was strong enough. We are all extremely sad here. Again, I thank you.



I'm so sorry! You're in my thoughts.




ascott said:


> I would pull them out and set them up in a warm environment. Here is why;
> 
> 
> The eyes are such an indicator of possible issues (not something that you have done but likely already quietly present and likely "likely" related to stress)
> ...



Angela, I'm sorry I'm just answering. Thanks so much for your input. We've had quite a week, as my 4-year-old niece is here staying with us and my husband surprised me with a dog for Christmas.

With everything going on including needing to dog-proof our tort enclosures, I decided to let Gomez and Morticia stay down a little longer. But I'm now preparing their space for wake up. In the meantime, they continue to hold their weight, and respond to touch with a reassuring twitch.


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## ascott (Dec 29, 2013)

> they continue to hold their weight, and respond to touch with a reassuring twitch.



This is fantastic to hear....


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## thatrebecca (Feb 25, 2014)

I haven't been on here in a while cause our DTs have been down since Nov. 10 and we adopted a new puppy at Christmas who's been keeping us very busy.

But now that we've built the torts a nice, dog-proof enclosure -- we have an area of the yard with 6-foot fencing separate from the rest we are able to use -- we'd like to wake them up.

Our wakeup plan is to transition their boxes from the non-working freezer they've been in (about 45-50 degrees) to a warmer location like a shady spot in the yard for a few hours, then to offer a tepid soak, and finally to put them outdoors midday on one of those gorgeous, sunny days that are customary here in LA. At night they'll be sleeping inside until we reach summery nighttime temps.

Naturally, the very week we plan to wake them is the week forecasters say LA will get its heaviest rains in two years. :/ I'm grateful for the much-needed rain but it's not great timing for our wake-up plan. Should we delay a few days until weather improves? So far we have raised them without the use of additional heat such as basking lamps or CHEs, but we can buy those things if we'll need them. 

We adopted them last April, so this is our first wake up with them.


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## T33's Torts (Feb 25, 2014)

"Gorgeous weather"?! I dont think so m' dear. Thunderstorms from late Wednesday to late Monday. No nice warm weather for a few weeks.


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## Team Gomberg (Feb 25, 2014)

I'd wait a little longer, personally. Especially with the rain expected this week.


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## ascott (Feb 25, 2014)

Well of course the weather now decides to go wet....lol....the men folk here are still in their boxes and sound clear and not mucking about, so they are going to remain as is until the wet cold weather predicted, either comes and goes or is a wash D)....

If they were fussing then I would have to do what is necessary but since they don't seem to want to be up, all will remain as is for now.

If I were you, and the torts are good, I personally would hold off a bit and see what comes of the weather....then go from there....it is a day or two process here when I bring the men folk out, the gradual temp and light process for them takes a day and then right before I set them loose they get a long soak....

You are there and are the one that has been watching them on and off during this process, so you are the one who ultimately will determine what your gut feeling tells you to do, you know what I mean?


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## nancykj (Feb 25, 2014)

hi all!
so, my big DT Ares woke up last week in his box in the garage. He was moving about, so I took him out and put him in his outdoor pen, where he is eating and drinking water and enjoying himself. the little guy Joxer woke up this past weekend, tho not as lively as Ares. So, he got a good soak, walked around his new digs, went into his outdoor burrow and I think back to sleep!
now will come big rain! (I live in the western san Fernando valley). My plan is to leave them outside, they should be fine in their cinderblock burrows, I think. I will cover the burrows with tarps, but they have wood "roofs", alfalfa hay inside to snuggle into, and should be comfy. this is by far the earliest they have woken up.
not sure that Joxer really wanted to be entirely up, but I think he should be fine outside now if he wants to go back to sleep for a while.


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## reticguy76 (Feb 25, 2014)

Why not just let them wake up and come out on their own?


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## thatrebecca (Feb 25, 2014)

Hey Nancy! I was wondering about your guys, since we both have that SF Valley climate going on. Mine haven't awakened, but their hibernacle has been a constant 40-50, so they haven't experienced our mild winter at all.

Reticguy76, since mine are housed in a way where they can't come out on their own (double boxed in a non-working chest freezer), I have to make a decision for them at some point. My plan had been to bring them out this week, but since I'd be bringing them out to cold & rain, it doesn't seem right. I'll let them stay down till the rain passes trhough.


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## kimber_lee_314 (Feb 25, 2014)

thatrebecca said:


> I haven't been on here in a while cause our DTs have been down since Nov. 10 and we adopted a new puppy at Christmas who's been keeping us very busy.
> 
> But now that we've built the torts a nice, dog-proof enclosure -- we have an area of the yard with 6-foot fencing separate from the rest we are able to use -- we'd like to wake them up.
> 
> ...



Mine are all awake now (on their own.) They have a dog house with a heating mat inside the garage. I leave the back door open every morning and they are free to wander out in the yard and graze (which they have been doing.) In the evening most of them make it back to the dog house in the garage. I make sure they are all on the heat mat at dusk every night. This week I will leave the door open, even with the expected rain, and they will do their own thing. Sometimes they enjoy a good rain, and will go out to graze, but again, I make sure everyone is dry and warm before it gets cold and dark. Hope that was helpful!!


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## OCTortoiseGuy (Feb 28, 2014)

My old man (50+) woke up yesterday to go out and enjoy the rain water. He stayed out all day and sunbathed after the rain had stopped until sunset and went back in his enclosure. Today we are suppose to get rain all day, we will see if he or the other two come out.


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## thatrebecca (Mar 4, 2014)

Guess who's up! I did a slow warm up over a period of 4 hours this morning -- moved their brumation boxes from the fridge (48 degrees) to the shed (57) to the back yard shade (67). Both torts got a tepid soak and are now out roaming the sunny sides of their new enclosures. (75).

Both of their eyes were slightly puffy, which dissipated in the soak. Otherwise things seem good. I'll be bringing them inside at about 4pm. It's still too cool for overnighting outside for these guys. 

Here's a peek of Gomez (upper) and Morticia (lower).


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## thatrebecca (Mar 4, 2014)

Oh, and this surprised me: after about an hour of sunning, Morticia ate some hibiscus. I thought they'd need more time before they'd want food. Gomez hasn't shown any interest yet.


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## thatrebecca (Mar 5, 2014)

Second day out of their brumation boxes and they both ate! I'm kind of surprised cause I thought they'd need more time. Both seem healthy, if a little low energy (gee, I wonder how much energy I'd have after a 4-month fast). The puffiness around the eyes is gone.

I've read that one of the most dangerous times for torts that brumate is the first week or two after they wake, so I'm cautiously optimistic that our first winter together has been a success, and I'm hoping Mother Nature continues to cooperate with these warm, sunny days.


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## T33's Torts (Mar 5, 2014)

Small heads up - 
Tomorrow is supposed to be cloudy, so don't except basking weather.


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## ascott (Mar 5, 2014)

Very happy to hear....eating is a good thing, some do it straight away and some take a bit longer....so good stuff 

I would just make sure that you offer a few days of warm water soaks at least a couple time a day (since they are small/young)....


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## thatrebecca (Mar 5, 2014)

ascott said:


> Very happy to hear....eating is a good thing, some do it straight away and some take a bit longer....so good stuff
> 
> I would just make sure that you offer a few days of warm water soaks at least a couple time a day (since they are small/young)....



Good to know, thanks! I gave them a soak on day 1, but hadn't planned another till the weekend. I guess I should step it up.


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## ascott (Mar 6, 2014)

> Good to know, thanks! I gave them a soak on day 1, but hadn't planned another till the weekend. I guess I should step it up.



Keep in mind, my OCD takes over on some things and so sharing just what I would do to feel assured they get as juicy as possible...


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## thatrebecca (Mar 6, 2014)

ascott said:


> > Good to know, thanks! I gave them a soak on day 1, but hadn't planned another till the weekend. I guess I should step it up.
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind, my OCD takes over on some things and so sharing just what I would do to feel assured they get as juicy as possible...



Morticia thanks you for your OCD. Here she is asleep during her 45-minute soak this morning.


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## ascott (Mar 6, 2014)

> Here she is asleep during her 45-minute soak this morning.



Ahhhh, shhh---baby snoozing


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## thatrebecca (Mar 11, 2014)

Gomez and Morticia have been up from brumation for a week now and all seems well. I've been giving 45-minute warm soaks every other day and we've been lucky to have great basking weather. Both are eating and exploring their expanded new enclosures. 

I just wanted to say thanks to everybody for enduring all my questions and worries on my first winter with torts. 

Angela, Tom and Yvonne all provided tips and info that were invaluable, not to mention the moral support from multiple other forum users! Thanks, guys! And here are the kiddos...

Morticia:



Gomez:


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## ascott (Mar 11, 2014)

Yaaaayyyyy...good job


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## Team Gomberg (Mar 13, 2014)

I don't think you've shared photos of their enlarged, dog proof, new diggs yet


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## thatrebecca (Mar 14, 2014)

Team Gomberg said:


> I don't think you've shared photos of their enlarged, dog proof, new diggs yet



Hah! You're right! I wanted to wait till it's planted and looking pretty, but I'll show you a sneak peek of the work in progress. 

We took a corner of the yard that was already fenced and had been used to store pool equipment and tools and converted it to two enclosures. Two of the walls are 8-foot concrete, one is a wood fence and one is a shed. On the bottom of the wood fence we buried ceramic floor tiles leftover from our kitchen renovation to guard against digging. 

At dusk the torts come inside for reasons of climate and predators.

Here's our dog Dude modeling his stay when I have the gate open to tend to the torts, Morticia showing off the concrete walled sides and Dude modeling how it looks with the gate shut. Stay tuned for further developments!


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## Team Gomberg (Mar 14, 2014)

very cool. Dude looks like a good boy 

I look forward to the updated pictures of their new space. Do they like it so far? Showcase your brick hides, too. I'm curious to see more of that.


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## plamphier (Mar 14, 2014)

My 30 something CDT quit coming out of his burrow just about Thanksgiving, so the week after, fearing a wet winter cause my house is in So Cal, but at 4000 feet in the San Berdoo mtns, I put him in a box in the garage. I adopted him last summer and have never brumated a tort before, so it freaked me out quite a bit, but he wanted to be asleep. He didn't seem fussy about temps or noise or anything. He was ASLEEP. But as the So Cal-ers know, it was Warm this "winter" so he woke up and rustled around about a month ago. Tipped him out of his box in front of his burrow in the yard, he sat there looking stunned and then crawled into his burrow and disappeared for a few more weeks. Covered burrow with a tarp for the SMALL rain we had, then TODAY he came out of his burrow and sat in the sun. He had a wee drink and a piece of lettuce. I was trying to imagine sleeping for 4 months, then waking up and eating a PIECE OF LETTUCE. He's pretty slow, but it's supposed to be warm this weekend, so we'll see if he stays up. It SURE IS NICE to have him back. I miss him ALL winter. Maybe that's why they brumate? So we'll miss them. Like the kids going away to college? You think? Ha!


My big tort puts the hay in his burrow out. He DOES NOT LIKE IT. So he's in there on the icky dirt, but he seems to prefer that. I have the cinder block burrow with wood roof too, but I covered in with a tarp for the one rain storm so he'd be snug and dry and when I checked him he was. Did yours stay dry? I felt bad about not taking him out of his burrow for the rain, but I also didn't want to wake him up to move him. And he's fine, so maybe nature knows what its doing.


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## Ida (Mar 15, 2014)

Oh I looove the names of your torts.....awesome! What a nice set up they have, even with a watch dog. Keep sharing those pictures.


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## thatrebecca (Mar 15, 2014)

Thanks guys! I'll definitely share some more pix as we get planted.

Here's another post-brumating question for all of you -- how long do think it'll be before they have their first poop? I don't think they have yet, and it's been about a week and a half of eating and warm baths.


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## ascott (Mar 15, 2014)

> Here's another post-brumating question for all of you -- how long do think it'll be before they have their first poop? I don't think they have yet, and it's been about a week and a half of eating and warm baths.



Can take a couple of weeks, easily. They are likely not consuming at full throttle yet...so will take a minute to build up the, well, big business....

I would keep soaking for a bit to assure they are hydrated...


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## thatrebecca (Mar 23, 2014)

I know you've all been waiting with baited breath for this news: Gomez and Morticia have now pooped. 

Post-brumation cycle complete.


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## ascott (Mar 24, 2014)

yup, about right


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