# "Natural"



## Tom (Dec 19, 2011)

I've had all sorts of thoughts running through my head on this subject. I'll try to keep it somewhat organized. I'm mainly speaking about sulcatas with some of this, but many points are valid for other species too.

Years ago when I was first learning about sulcatas they were referred to as a "desert" species. All the books said that they needed it hot and dry. The books said that they live in "desert scrubland" or "dry savannah" areas and warned that humidity could make them sick and eventually kill them. Humidity was "unnatural" according to the books. I figured that there were scholarly people with reams of information on the wild habitats and habits on these creatures that I loved so much. I believed, like most people, what the books and "experts" had to say, and kept my tortoises the way they recommended. Years later, I now know that these people had no idea what they were talking about. They were just making stuff up and speculating. I started with sulcatas in '91. Right around 2000, after many failed attempts to raise a "natural" looking smooth tortoise, is when I figured out that the info that was "out there" was just wrong. It took another 7 or 8 years to even begin to figure out just which part is wrong, and how it was wrong, but I knew we were missing something. We still have a long way to go, but progress is being made. Both by captive keepers here in the US and by field researchers in Africa.

Wrong concept #1: Hot and dry or "desert". First of all, the range of the sulcata is huge. I was looking at a world map today with my daughter and pointing out all the countries where sulcatas live (or used to live, as the case may be). Then I glanced across the Atlantic at the entire USA. Its roughly the same size as the range of the sulcata. I think the sulcata range might be narrower top to bottom but its close to the same width, if you believe the books about their range. Either way, however big their range is, its a HUGE area. When I consider the difference in temps and climate in the relatively small Los Angels County, much less the entire country, how could anyone even know what climate sulcatas need? The CA desert tortoise occurs in a fairly small range and the climate is pretty similar throughout. The sulcata's range spans many countries! Dean lives 40 minutes North of me. Our climates are somewhat similar, but its a little more windy, dry, colder in the winter and the natural vegetation is a bit more sparse up where he is. 40 minutes south of me, where I grew up, its totally different. Up here we get 110 regularly in the summer and its very dry. Down there if it reaches the high 80's people freak out. Being close to the beach the humidity is moderate and most of the houses don't even have A/C. In the winter we regularly dip into the high 20's up here. Down there it rarely gets below 50. Its only 40 minutes away! Look at the weather in Dakar Senegal vs. any of the cities to the East like Naye on the border of Mali or Kedougou to the south east. Drastically different. Here's the thing. It doesn't matter a whole lot WHAT the above ground climate is. They spend 8 or 9 months underground in their grass lined burrows. The other 3-4 months its raining and everything is lush, green and wet. Seasonal marshes are formed and this is when and where the babies hatch (Best guess of someone who knows more about wild sulcatas than I ever will). We don't have a climate like that here in the US, so speaking at least for myself, its hard to wrap my brain around that. I think its good to try to understand what the climate is like in a general sense where your species comes from. Just don't lose sight of the fact that there are literally millions of "micro-habitiats" and "microclimates" within the range of ANY species. Further, for the info to be relevant for us in captivity we should be studying the climate INSIDE those burrows that they spend 9 months of every year in. (This study is just about to begin, by the way.) As far as hatchlings go, almost nothing is known about any aspect of their life. We really don't know where and when they hatch, what they eat, how far they range, where they hang out, if they bask at all, or all the time, how often they drink, where they go during the dry season, where they go between hatching and the 10-12" size that locals and tourists report seeing them above ground at. Since no one knows ANYTHING about them, how can anyone say what is a "natural" way to keep them? I can't. I can only say what works for me in captivity, AND I can write volumes about what does NOT work. Even someone who lives in range of the sulcata can't say what a baby needs or what is "natural" for them. No one knows. There is one thing we do know. They do NOT pyramid over there at all, ever. Quote from Tomas Diagne of Senegal, "Pyramiding does not exist in my country."

Wrong concept #2: Slow growth and reduced food amounts. They do not grow slow over there. I have seen studies on other species, notably Testudo sp., that suggest they grow slower in the wild than captivity. Okay. From the small amount that I have seen, sulcatas grow at around the same rate over there as the "average" ones over here do. I saw pics of 6 year old semi-wild raised (inside a giant fenced area, but NO supplemental food from people), and I estimate they were 30-40 pounds. I'll try to get the pics and post them. There is a common sentiment that they survive on next to no food for months out of the year over there and there is not much to eat on the savannah. For three or four months during the rainy season they eat their fill of lush greenery every day, and drink their fill too from the wetlands that form. During the dry season, I recently learned, they eat all the grass that they have drug into their burrows during the end of the rainy season. I think, based on the tidbits I have gathered, that they are just as gluttonous over there as they are over here. Now I'm not suggesting we feed them their fill of Mazuri, grocery store greens, veggies and fruit every day, but weeds, grass, leaves and cactus are fair game in my opinion. I intentionally grew my current adults slowly. It is a mistake I will always regret. Only time will tell if they are permanently stunted or if they will eventually catch up. Please be clear: I am NOT suggesting we attempt to grow them fast. I AM suggesting we let them eat as much as they want of the RIGHT foods. Grass, grass hay, appropriate tree and bush leaves (mulberry, hibiscus, rose, etc...), and even spineless opuntia. I know spineless opuntia does not naturally occur in Africa, but due to its high fiber, high Ca : Ph ratio and water content, I think its a great food and does simulate some of the succulents that DO occur over there.

Wrong concept #3: Not too much water or soaking. There are all sorts of reason I hear NOT to soak them or give them a water bowl. Shell rot, too much humidity, it makes them poop too often and they don't digest their food, its "unnatural", etc... All of these reasons are bunk. If they are hatched in the rainy season in a marsh, how in the heck is drinking water and humidity "unnatural"? If you still believe that sulcatas are "desert" animals and envision them walking on a barren sand dune in the hot sun, then I guess it would seem unnatural. I don't envision them that way. I see them as an animal that has adapted to survive underground when water and food are scarce, but also as an animal that seeks out and takes advantage of water whenever it can.

My way of keeping sulcata babies is certainly unconventional, but for 20 years I watched "conventional" fail over and over again. Nobody ever attacked me, insulted me or questioned me when I was doing it all wrong like everyone else. But now that I am finally raising "natural" looking healthy tortoises of two different species that commonly do NOT look natural here in captivity, I am the target of much animosity, ridicule and insult. I take this all in stride. I don't care if some people think is "unnatural". I think its very "natural". It also seems totally logical based on the tiny bit that we do know about wild ones. Disregarding wild ones, since we know so little about them, I have really tried to focus on what works, or does not work, for me, in my enclosures, with my tortoises.

The purpose of this thread is to share my thoughts AND stimulate discussion on these matters. If anyone has more info on wild sulcatas or other torts, I would love to hear it. I want to LEARN and share what ever I learn with others.


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## ascott (Dec 19, 2011)

Hi Tom 



> The CA desert tortoise occurs in a fairly small range and the climate is pretty similar throughout.



So I am going to let this statement pass in regards to this thread 



> We don't have a climate like that here in the US



Tom, you lay mention to micro climates, we absolutely have a multitude of micro climates , IMO, we do have a climate like that....hot and sunny and dry most of the year with the exception of a few months here where we do in fact get substantial rain...you have described that indeed using your comparison between your location and Dean....and if you threw in where I live here near the Mojave you can further substantiate we do indeed have a similar climate....

I use to work on a 800 acre Wildlife Area that snugged up to the Mojave River- Narrows...now the area that I cared for there had the only *natural* marsh in the high desert (still the only one) and it absolutely creates its own micro climate and that in itself would change from lush and green and alive with all types of frog/toad/fish/salamanders/lizards/bobcat/mountain lion and was host to over 350 migratory (my favs being the hundreds of Turkey Vultures and hundreds of Pelicans that would visit for awhile) birds ALL based on winter and primarily spring/summer....that area is home to a handful of endangered birds and rodent...it is a fabulous area in that if you were 4 miles away from the park property borderline you would never know that the place was so diverse....as it is completely surrounded by desert....it truly is the meaning of oasis in the desert....



> Since no one knows ANYTHING about them, how can anyone say what is a "natural" way to keep them? I can't. I can only say what works for me in captivity,



I agree 100% with this statement. 



> Slow growth and reduced food amounts. They do not grow slow over there.
> 
> where they go between hatching and the 10-12" size that locals and tourists report seeing them above ground at



Now Tom, this is one of those areas that you and I do not at this point in our relationship agree whole heartedly on....not that I believe one or the other of us is correct/incorrect....but just think differently. Here is the question from me in regards to them suddenly appearing at 10-12"....how do we know how old they are simply based on the size, if the habits of a hatchling are not documented to give a basis for size measurement? how do we know it has not taken them 15 - 20 years to be this size in their wildland? we do know that their climate allows for lush times of year and dry times of year....so as with any other tortoise living in their wildland we can only "guess" how long it takes for the tortoise to go from egg to 10-12" inches....now, my take on this is that they have a slow and steady rate of growth as there is not likely another option..since this is likely the way it has been for a gazillion years for them, then in my mind they are designed by evolution to grow at a rate of speed set by their environment, sure, we can give them loads of food every day all year long and they will grow bigger at a more rapid rate...but given that their shell is bone....bone needs to grow at a steady rate in order to be hard and strong and solid ---no air pockets is desired as that would further assure a strong solid structure....you know? If you have rapid growth of young bone, my opinion is that you have a weaker bone....now I am not a scientist WHATSOEVER....but this is my theory....also the internal organs should have ample time to move and use all nutrients entered into the tortoise.....again Tom, this is simply my line of thinking....



> They do not grow slow over there



Again, we do not know the rate of growth for a hatchling to the referenced 10-12" mark.....so we really can not decide for certain if this early stage sets a healthy jump off point for a gorge o rama to begin an then is that the point that the size can be pounded on? Not disagreeing with the statement here Tom, just further thinking is all 



> Not too much water or soaking



That theory is just crazy, again, in my opinion....I have never seen a tortoise that did not love water at some point or another....any tortoise that I have offered a water source to has partaken as any sane creature who needs water should......

Tom, I truly hope folks will take this thread as a time to share thoughts and further spark theories that will in turn help out tortoise....I am enjoying the thread thus far.....


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## Tom (Dec 19, 2011)

Great responses Angela. I want to respond to each of your responses. Like a conversation. 

1. What I mean is that in comparison to leopard tortoises or sulcatas, which range almos the entire continent, the CA Desert tortoise has a relatively small range.

2. The reason I say we don't have a climate like that is because it does not ever get cold over there. They have hot and hotter, according to the man who lives there. It makes sense too since they are in the tropics. We can certainly simulate the hot and dry part, in the South Western desert, but then we cool off and get to freezing, hence our desert tortoise's period of brumation.

3. About the growth: We do know how fast they grow. Tomas has been captive breeding and then he has special remote giant pens where he raises them without human interference. The pens are huge, but there is technically a fence somewhere off in the horizon. They don't feed them. They only graze on whatever food there is during what ever season it is. They are basically living wild. The one's of known age over there are about the same size as the ones of that age over here. I'll post the pics as soon as I get them.

Thank you for responding.


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## Lulu (Dec 19, 2011)

Obviously I can't say either what is absolutely natural for sulcatas, as it seems no one really knows for sure. I follow sort of a moderate plan but for me that means things are relatively humid, as it just is humid here right now. Things are kind of hot in my enclosure, because that's what the CHE I have does, but my table is large enough that Cecil can pick where he wants to be, and that seems to be 80-ish, except for after he eats and then it's 90-ish to 100-ish. He always has water. He might have trouble finding it in nature, but that hardly seems like a positive thing. I might get eaten by a bear in nature too, but I would prefer not to.

The big thing I've implemented recently, and that seems to be consistent with your thinking, Tom, is that I have mostly switched to a grass/weed diet. Where we differ is that I do think that overfeeding is a problem in our society versus your friend's. I'll admit that I don't really have anything to back it except my own opinion based on my reading, but I suspect that a giant handful of spring mix every day isn't the healthiest diet for a sulcata. I base this on my belief that it is "natural" for them to eat grass and weeds, and those only in the amount they can find while grazing. Your friend's sulcatas aren't having their food handed to them. They're limited to what they can find. Ideally I should be making Cecil graze for his weeds too, but the weather interferes a bit so I do go out and pick the grass and weeds for him right now. At the end of the summer, it is what he was doing, and next year I plan to have him out full time and I don't plan to feed him other than working to keep his enclosure well planted.

I've slipped up a little the past few weeks because I adopted a tortoise with advanced MBD and I've been feeding her spring mix because that's all I can get into her, and I've been lazy with feeding Cecil. However, this thread has helped remind me why I was outside every morning picking sow thistle, and I thank you for helping me get back out there tomorrow.


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## Neal (Dec 19, 2011)

I do not know much about sulcatas specifically, but I would like to inject my thoughts to the above for the sake of another viewpoint in the debate. 

I agree that any "natural" method of raising tortoises is not very logical considering there is such a small amount of real information that the majority of us have access to about how tortoises live their lives "naturally". 

Wrong Concept 1: Again, I have to say that I am very skeptical that the secret to pyramiding is that the tortoises grow in swamp like conditions...I donâ€™t think you are necessarily suggesting that, but it can be implied. Consider the Sonoran desert tortoise which, like the sulcata, is very prone to pyramiding in captivity but generally smooth in wild populations. This specific tortoise is well studied and understood. It is pretty well known that they do not grow in marsh lands, simply because they don't really exist around here. So while the swamp theory might apply to sulcatas, I donâ€™t see that it relates to other tortoises (even pardalis) which are equally as prone to pyramiding as a sulcata. 

I do agree that to keep them hot and dry 24/7 is just a bad idea. But I think the "dry method" is over-generalized. I have read many publications about tortoise husbandry both past and present, and I donâ€™t recall making any implications or reading any explicit recommendations that a tortoise should be kept in this manner. In fact, I can recall from a few of these â€œoutdatedâ€ publications that a hide of some sort where they can cool off is recommended. Further - I myself have raised, and am currently raising tortoises in semi-arid conditions, which is what I would consider "dry". That doesn't mean that they are kept under a basking light at 110 degrees and are only given water once a month. My â€œdry methodâ€ simply means my overall humidity is kept very low with even the humid hide fluctuating from moderate to low. I have never had any issues with pyramiding at all with any of the tortoises I have raised, and am currently raising. Iâ€™m not trying to say that the swampy method doesnâ€™t work, in fact I think the swampy method is just ONE way to prevent pyramiding. What Iâ€™m trying to say is that I donâ€™t think itâ€™s the â€œbe all end all answer for all tortoisesâ€ based on my experiences I have shared with the forum. Again, Iâ€™m not sure youâ€™re necessarily suggesting that, but I can see how that can be implied so thatâ€™s why I bring it up.

Wrong Concept 2: Now the slow growth method I have definitely heard of, in fact I was reading through an old tortoise book recently, which recommends slow growth. I could see how easily implications of starving tortoises could be made and such was my earlier practices. But, now with a little more experience Iâ€™m going to say that slow growth whether right or wrong (or trying to establish a â€œnormalâ€ growth rate for that matter) makes absolutely no sense at all, in fact itâ€™s quite confusing. In terms of quantifiable data - what is slow growth? What is fast growth? What is natural growth? If no one has seen any sulcata hatchlings in the wild, how do we know how old the ones they do see are, and therefore how fast they grew? So, I donâ€™t understand why you say that â€œthey donâ€™t grow slow over thereâ€, and even if thatâ€™s the case, where are the subjects being used as comparison? As it relates to your topic of raising tortoises naturally, who knows either way? I do agree that starving them is not a good idea, so I think Iâ€™ll just leave it at that. 

Wrong Concept 3: We are in agreement here except I do envision sulcatas (and other grassland or desert species) in a dry arid environment, but I donâ€™t envision that they spend every single day walking around like that. I cannot envision them spending all day in swamps or wallowing in the mud, but I do imagine they spend some of their time like that. I think a good mix of both the dry and the wet happens naturally, and thatâ€™s what I strive for. 

No oneâ€™s method of raising tortoises is conventional, and certainly ones methods do not simply work in all situations and environments. Methods that some consider equivalent to sticking knives in outlets, are something completely different and successful to someone else. I see some of my methods indirectly attacked from time to time, but I see that as an opportunity to either prove that my methods work or they don't, and it helps me understand why I do what I do.

Well, I hope I at least stayed relevant to the topic.


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## nikki0601 (Dec 19, 2011)

What I have to say is this, pertaining to wrong #1, even if someone did come up with field research today proving for fact that the Sulcata is naturally ONLY in a dry desert climate, no marsh, very little water etc.. I would not change my ways, though I have only been doing this a short time and its just one tortoise I have, that tortoise is doing well, very well, and he seems to be very happy, very.. this is not the wild, it is captivity and regardless of whats natural its be proven what works better than any other method to date, has proven to produce healthy, happy thriving animals


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## DeanS (Dec 19, 2011)

Tom's points are valid! Dave's points are valid! So are mine...Angela's and Renee's! Tomas is the ONLY real expert as he's the only one who's witnessed natural behaviors...and even these are limited. All we provide is an artificial means to recreate what we believe to be as close to natural as possible. Some hit closer than others. But this is our passion...no room for stubbornness here. Get it right...or as close as you can come to it. I've done away with humid hides...as 75% of my backyard is lawn...and I do allow it to clump in areas...I hit 5 areas of my yard today with a temp gun between the hours of 9:30AM and 3:00PM. The warmest spot ranged from 65 - 89 (direct sun on dirt for the duration)...and the coolest from 50-60 (all shade during these hours). because I have green grass, weeds, etc...there is still quality humidity. I soak Aladar twice a week now...for 20 minutes a session. The babies...every other day for about 15 minutes each. I vary their feed daily as well. I give Aladar dry Mazuri/Marion every other day...and cactus every other day. I only feed him lasagne now when I feel that he needs more long stem fiber...i.e. I trick him to eat the hay (soaked). The babies get cactus and Mazuri/Marion/Chopped hay swirl every other day...NEVER on the same day. They all graze regularly now...so I'm becoming less concerned with their diet...until some new acquisitions bloom This is basically my plan for the winter/early spring. By May, I'll probably switch it up...maybe!


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## lynnedit (Dec 19, 2011)

I don't have a Sulcata nor the experience to comment in detail. But this is a wonderful thread.
I kind of feel that you have to almost use instincts to care for a tortoise: watch them carefully, take into account the area of the world you live in and base care on what you see them do.


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## Tom (Dec 19, 2011)

Lulu said:


> Obviously I can't say either what is absolutely natural for sulcatas, as it seems no one really knows for sure. I follow sort of a moderate plan but for me that means things are relatively humid, as it just is humid here right now. Things are kind of hot in my enclosure, because that's what the CHE I have does, but my table is large enough that Cecil can pick where he wants to be, and that seems to be 80-ish, except for after he eats and then it's 90-ish to 100-ish. He always has water. He might have trouble finding it in nature, but that hardly seems like a positive thing. I might get eaten by a bear in nature too, but I would prefer not to.
> 
> The big thing I've implemented recently, and that seems to be consistent with your thinking, Tom, is that I have mostly switched to a grass/weed diet. Where we differ is that I do think that overfeeding is a problem in our society versus your friend's. I'll admit that I don't really have anything to back it except my own opinion based on my reading, but I suspect that a giant handful of spring mix every day isn't the healthiest diet for a sulcata. I base this on my belief that it is "natural" for them to eat grass and weeds, and those only in the amount they can find while grazing. Your friend's sulcatas aren't having their food handed to them. They're limited to what they can find. Ideally I should be making Cecil graze for his weeds too, but the weather interferes a bit so I do go out and pick the grass and weeds for him right now. At the end of the summer, it is what he was doing, and next year I plan to have him out full time and I don't plan to feed him other than working to keep his enclosure well planted.
> 
> I've slipped up a little the past few weeks because I adopted a tortoise with advanced MBD and I've been feeding her spring mix because that's all I can get into her, and I've been lazy with feeding Cecil. However, this thread has helped remind me why I was outside every morning picking sow thistle, and I thank you for helping me get back out there tomorrow.



Your care regime sounds very reasonable to me. We are in complete agreement on the food thing too. I think they CAN be fed too much of the wrong things, but I don't think they can over eat on the right things that they graze themselves in an outdoor pen. Things like grass, weeds, and the aformentioned leaves. And opuntia too. I do agree that other things like Mazuri, Marion red sticks, spring mix and store bought greens do need to be fed with more care.


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## dav3 (Dec 19, 2011)

"I AM suggesting we let them eat as much as they want of the RIGHT foods" i couldnt possible agree more with you on this statement, tortoise are not exactly light and for them a shell must weigh a ton,in my opinion it takes them alot of energy to move hence why they need alot of food to get that energy to move. i honestly think tortoises should have unlimited amount of right foods at all times.


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## Tom (Dec 19, 2011)

Another thing I wish to note: I was talking with a tortoise friend today and I realized something. In years past most people agreed on what was the "right" care for sulcatas and leopards. I think we all realize now how wrong that way was, but the vast majority were all on the same page, so to speak. Very little arguing or infighting.

Nowadays, there seems to be a lot of discord, arguing and disagreement. I don't mean here on our forum, but everywhere "out there". I really see this as a good thing. To me it signifies that the "combatants" realize that the "old way" was wrong and they are now thinking about, and trying to figure out better ways to do things. Some people are experimenting and are more open-minded about new concepts. Neal has his way, with excellent results. So does Dean. Maggie's got a method she credits to Yvonne and swears by. I have found my way, with results that I am very happy with, others have their ways too. As long as we are not raising dehydrated, stunted, grotesquely disfigured animals, then things are on the right track. I think our torts are much better off now than they were 5 or 10 years ago. I know mine are.


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## Neal (Dec 19, 2011)

Tom said:


> Nowadays, there seems to be a lot of discord, arguing and disagreement. I don't mean here on our forum, but everywhere "out there". I really see this as a good thing. To me it signifies that the "combatants" realize that the "old way" was wrong and they are now thinking about, and trying to figure out better ways to do things. Some people are experimenting and are more open-minded about new concepts. Neal has his way, with excellent results. So does Dean. Maggie's got a method she credits to Yvonne and swears by. I have found my way, with results that I am very happy with, others have their ways too. As long as we are not raising dehydrated, stunted, grotesquely disfigured animals, then things are on the right track. I think our torts are much better off now than they were 5 or 10 years ago. I know mine are.



This is a very good and fair statement. Thank you.


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## Lulu (Dec 19, 2011)

I would agree.


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## Jacqui (Dec 20, 2011)

Tom said:


> Another thing I wish to note: I was talking with a tortoise friend today and I realized something. In years past most people agreed on what was the "right" care for sulcatas and leopards. I think we all realize now how wrong that way was, but the vast majority were all on the same page, so to speak. Very little arguing or infighting.



 I have to strongly disagree with this comment. I have been with tortoises as long as you Tom, darn if you add in turtles, I remember well the days of the dime store RES in the oval dish in the early 60s. In that time, I have saw nothing but differing opinions and advice given out. Any time I ever saw two tortoise folks gather, they would debate this or that.

There were those who said feed monkey chow, the dog food diet, the Twiggy diet (for you younger folks Twiggy was a famous model who was thin as a twig) of iceberg and tomatoes, and so on. We had the same debates on if you give them water all the time, sometimes, all the times, or do soaks.

Sorry Tom, I see the same debates and the same basic things. Sure we may now throw in terms we didn't use to use like microclimates, but the debates are still as active as ever.




Tom said:


> . I think our torts are much better off now than they were 5 or 10 years ago. I know mine are.



That is true, as it is with all animals we keep, including humans. The longer we have them, the more we understand their needs and the more science and the manufacturing segment of society comes up with things needed to implement the constantly new knowledge we gain, the better off all our animals are.



Tom, can I ask a question and you not take it the wrong way? Why do you go jumping on what one man is telling you? 



Tom said:


> 3. About the growth: We do know how fast they grow. Tomas has been captive breeding and then he has special remote giant pens where he raises them without human interference. The pens are huge, but there is technically a fence somewhere off in the horizon. They don't feed them. They only graze on whatever food there is during what ever season it is. They are basically living wild. The one's of known age over there are about the same size as the ones of that age over here. I'll post the pics as soon as I get them.



How did he decide where to place those pens? Did he take the ENTIRE range known to be sulcata territory and close his eyes and point to a spot on a map somebody was holding? OR did he go out and hand pick this area for his large pen? An area where conditions seemed to be ideal perhaps? Good food supply, good water source, established burrow, low predators, ect.


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## Tom (Dec 20, 2011)

Jacqui wrote-"Tom, can I ask a question and you not take it the wrong way? Why do you go jumping on what one man is telling you?"

Of course you can. You can always ask me any questions. I would not do this with just any old person I met on the street. Tomas' reputation, credibility and accomplishments are easily researched and verifiable. He is the founder and Director of The African Chelonian Institute. He has won many awards for his efforts. Dean has posted some links to help people get to know who the man is. I first met him as the Keynote Speaker at this years TTPG conference. I have never been in a room with that many tortoise keepers of that level of experience. Literally some of the biggest most well know (within the industry) keepers and breeders attend that conference. I am the smallest of small fish in THAT pond. Tomas and I shared a lunch table at the conference and had great conversation regarding sulcatas, their care, and what happens in the wild. He gave a powerpoint presentation shortly after lunch and showed pictures, maps and diagrams of what he was doing with wild sulcatas and his captive re-introductions. I saw him again two weeks later at The Ojai Sulcatta Project. He gave another sulcatta only presentation and had an question and answer session at the end. Dean and I arrived at around 10am and did not leave until around 3pm. During that time we had several conversations with Tomas' and Dave, and learned a tremendous amount. I have not met anyone who knows more, or has more experience with wild sulcatas. I have met a few people who were in that part of Africa and had seen a thing or two, but this man grew up there and has been interested in them and studying them since he was a child. He estimates that he has around 600 sulcatas at his facility. He has many on display for the public to view and even interact with, and then he has the other ones, the ones he keeps as "wild" as possible and well away from the people. I do not know how he chose the location of his pens. I can guess that it was a variety of factors. I will ask him. Either way, with no help or human interference of any kind they grow how fast they grow. The fence keeps some of the predators out, but it does not make them grow faster. I am in the process of gaining more info and will post it as it comes.

I joined the reptile craze, including tortoises, during the "boom" of the early 90's when reptiles went mainstream, and you didn't have to be some sort of fringey weirdo to keep a pet snake. By that time, I did not see anyone arguing or disagreeing about how to keep sulcatas or leopards. If you did, more power to ya! I do not know what was going on prior to that in the reptile world. Prior to that I was just a kid working in a pet shop or just a kid with a single box turtle, prior to that. It was around '90 that I made it to my first "Trade Show" too. 








ALSO, it may be a case of finding "evidence" to support the conclusion I want to support, BUT what he's telling me also fits perfectly with what I am finding to be the case with my captive babies. Example: Early on he was keeping some of the "not to be released into the wild babies" in smaller pens in the facility with more human intervention. The pens were kept relatively dry with the seasons and he had some problems with failure to thrive and eyes issues. They began irrigating these pens which increased the vegetation, moisture and humidity and POOF! Problems disappeared. To be clear, this is a DIFFERENT group of babies than the ones I was talking about for growth rates.

So many things just line up...


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## Jacqui (Dec 20, 2011)

I was wondering, because your following him and setting him up on a pedestal reminds me not so many years back, when keepers did the same thing with Andy Highfield and his teachings.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Dec 20, 2011)

I think this is a great thread. All points are valid. Keep the discussion going!

Coming from the petstore industry side of things, everyone wants to categorize hwo to keep herps into neat little terms like "desert" or "rainforest," low or high humidity, etc. I don't know many times I've tried to tell people that there are more environments on this planet than just deserts and rainforests! To some people, all humidity means is how many times do I have to spray the cage with a water bottle.

I've said it before: until this past April, I was like "everyone else." I thought sulcatas didn't need water dishes and they didn't need humidity. I admit; I even started out Kobe keeping him this way! I'm thankful I came across this forum, and my eyes have been opened to just how little we really know about baby tortoises in general, and how so many things about what we "think" we know has relaly been quite wrong. I understand everyone has different methods and different results. And I think that's the key: RESULTS. If you're keeping your animal a certain way, even if it is not within the conventional "textbook/careguide" way, and that animal is thriving and remaining healthy...who is anyone to tell you what you're doing is wrong?!

Eugene Bessette, a well-known pioneer in the reptile industry who mainly works with snakes, often makes the statement, "Be a student of the serpent." Of course, we can paraphrase that to whatever animal we keep, but the point is we need to let the animals teach us what is working and what is not working. Too many keepers are so caught up in trying to go "by the book" so to speak, but really, the book isn't based on anything substantial (like with sulcatas, for instance!).


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## Jacqui (Dec 20, 2011)

ShiningSnakes said:


> I think this is a great thread. All points are valid. Keep the discussion going!
> 
> Coming from the petstore industry side of things, everyone wants to categorize hwo to keep herps into neat little terms like "desert" or "rainforest," low or high humidity, etc. I don't know many times I've tried to tell people that there are more environments on this planet than just deserts and rainforests! To some people, all humidity means is how many times do I have to spray the cage with a water bottle.
> 
> ...



Very well said! I also believe in the theory that nobody is an "expert". I just see too many folks who think there is just one way to do things. Time and again that is proven untrue. Even within my own animals, even ones of the same species, I find things need to be tweaked to fit their individual needs. For me, that is one of the challenges and one of the exciting best things about these fascinating creatures.


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## ascott (Dec 20, 2011)

> setting him up on a pedestal



My take on Tom sharing his opinions and his appreciation for what Tomas has observed first hand over his lifetime thus far is a fair motive for excitement.

I do not equate Toms excitement as putting someone on a pedestal, however, sometimes a better view is from a higher place? What I mean by that is that this person Tomas has valuable, viable information that he shares----he in turn observes the same tortoise species in other parts of the world to see what has been working for them there....this is a great form of observation....observation in the wild allows us to mimic somewhat their actions....now all we have to do is figure out why they do the actions to begin with?


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## Katherine (Dec 21, 2011)

*RE: "Natural"*

" And I think that's the key: RESULTS. If you're keeping your animal a certain way, even if it is not within the conventional "textbook/careguide" way, and that animal is thriving and remaining healthy...who is anyone to tell you what you're doing is wrong?!

Eugene Bessette, a well-known pioneer in the reptile industry who mainly works with snakes, often makes the statement, "Be a student of the serpent." Of course, we can paraphrase that to whatever animal we keep, but the point is we need to let the animals teach us what is working and what is not working. Too many keepers are so caught up in trying to go "by the book" so to speak, but really, the book isn't based on anything substantial (like with sulcatas, for instance!).[/QUOTE] "

Agree : ) and I had never previously heard "be a student of the serpent" but what a brilliant statement! There are many different ways to do right by your animals and the only way to know you are on the correct path is to see positive feedback from the animals you care for as a direct result of your own husbandry. It is awesome to have the experience of others (via journals, literature and other mediums) as a guide but ultimately all of these guides were written by other keepers observing their own animals.


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## Tom (Dec 21, 2011)

katherine said:


> " And I think that's the key: RESULTS. If you're keeping your animal a certain way, even if it is not within the conventional "textbook/careguide" way, and that animal is thriving and remaining healthy...who is anyone to tell you what you're doing is wrong?!
> 
> Eugene Bessette, a well-known pioneer in the reptile industry who mainly works with snakes, often makes the statement, "Be a student of the serpent." Of course, we can paraphrase that to whatever animal we keep, but the point is we need to let the animals teach us what is working and what is not working. Too many keepers are so caught up in trying to go "by the book" so to speak, but really, the book isn't based on anything substantial (like with sulcatas, for instance!).


 "

Agree : ) and I had never previously heard "be a student of the serpent" but what a brilliant statement! There are many different ways to do right by your animals and the only way to know you are on the correct path is to see positive feedback from the animals you care for as a direct result of your own husbandry. It is awesome to have the experience of others (via journals, literature and other mediums) as a guide but ultimately all of these guides were written by other keepers observing their own animals. 


[/quote]

These are great points Katherine. Without knowing it, I have been following Eugene's axiom.

Your last paragraph makes a great point. One of my downfalls is a lack of ability to find and show "scientific evidence" to support my assertions. I have always said that because I can't find a study doesn't mean it isn't true. Well your last sentence is very true. All of these studies were written by human beings who observed things. Because someone doesn't have a bunch of letters after their name or a fancy institution behind them does not mean they have not observed something.





Jacqui said:


> I was wondering, because your following him and setting him up on a pedestal reminds me not so many years back, when keepers did the same thing with Andy Highfield and his teachings.



Your words do not fall upon deaf ears.

I do not see it as me putting him on a pedestal where he can do or say no wrong. He's just been telling me what he has seen and I have been relaying it here. The man is not trying to preach or teach me anything. I have been the one questioning him and he simply answers my questions. I don't see this as serving any purpose for him and furthering any agenda. He's just relaying info about wild sulcatas that so few people have or could even get. And unlike Andy who has occasionally spent a week or two in the habitat of his chosen species, this man grew up there.

I don't see him as on a pedestal. I see him as very down to earth and willing to share what he has seen.


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## terryo (Dec 21, 2011)

ShiningSnakes said:


> BTW, this is all coming from another former petstore worker. While I may not have learned much from the alleged petstores themselves, I did learn a bit just simply working with the animals I was responsible for. Whenever a new species came in, I was always inspired to do my own research and learn as much as I could. There were many opportunities I would not have had if I had not worked in those places. It is true that today I do not have much love for petstores knowing what I know now, but I still do not regret working there.



I only have about two min. to post here....but wow...this was an excellent post, IMHO. Thank you.


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## stells2 (Dec 22, 2011)

Shining snakes... i tried to get my methods across... to be met with Tom telling me they were just greeks... like they didn't matter... i share my ways on other forums now... not this one ...


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## Tccarolina (Dec 22, 2011)

Stells2, I keep Greeks and would love to read your perspective on raising them smooth but dry. Could you post your experiences or point me to where you already have?

I am on this forum for one reason. To learn. I am particularly interested in pyramiding, because I find it ugly and unnatural. It seems that all the new information points to humidity during rapid growth.
I would like to hear other opinions if they are out there. Are you really raising smooth Greeks in dry, low humidity conditions? If so, how?


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## stells2 (Dec 22, 2011)

Yes my greeks are kept dry... no humid hide... i can't remember the last time i sprayed the enclosure... the soil is bone dry... I use combined UV/heat bulbs... and suppliment with a D3 suppliment when they are being fed weeds... this is due to my climate and the failure of summer in the UK... and poor UV levels in the summer... 

They do have water available 24/7... fed weeds.. with pellets added 2-3 times per week... calcium sources available at all times... temps 34 basking spot... 31 warm end... 24 cool end... night temps 18 (all temps are in celcius) soaked 3 times per week... 

Internal hydration is far more important than external IMO... and has done the job for me... i keep mine as simple as i can... and have never felt the need to over complicate matters as they have always grown nicely for me... 

If you would like anymore details... feel free to PM me


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## ShadowRancher (Dec 22, 2011)

This is a great topic, I'm just getting into Sulcatas but I've found the lack of information on "natural" conditions frustrating, if there is one thing getting an undergrad biology degree teaches you it's to be highly cynical of other people's science 

I love the "be a student of the serpent" quote, I've always believed that no one can tell you more about your animal than your animal. College students don't have a ton of extra time but we do spend plenty sitting around reading so I grab my stack of articles and camp out on a pillow next to Levi's house. I watch where in the temp gradient he likes to hang out and when, what he eats the most of ( I separated his weeds in a line a few times to really get a feel for that, as much as he seems to sniff things I think they use smell as a major "yummy" indicator), and it's been really useful to monitor his shell. I've started thinking of his shell cells as similar to plant cells, mostly empty except for the nucleus, cell wall and a central vacuole that retains water. I of course have nothing to back this up except the observation that the edges of his scutes seem to inflate and deflate based on water and humidity (like a plant). I think the new cells ar absorbing water into the "vacuole" then hardening while they are turgid (full), or at least ideally, if there is no water they get hard in the "deflated" state.
The very edges of his shell are always full and smooth because they are the part of the top shell that gets the most water in the soak, I try to pour water over him without getting his head under water but I think the top scutes have to rely mostly on humidity.

Sorry that was long and a little off topic but I just thought I'd share my observations because they seem to agree with the points in the OP...he likes weeds, his water dish and his shell is nice and smooth, even short term, with wetter conditions (I don't keep him swampy just moist with a humid hide and lots of soaks).


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## Tom (Dec 22, 2011)

I share your shell "cellular" observations, but you elaborated and put it into words much better than I did. I did a post on this a while back. Check it out and tell me what you think:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread...ighlight=carapace+like+a+sponge#axzz1hI4diraQ

I don't know what the "real" science behind it is, but it is an observable and repeatable observation. I think the "squiggly lines" that we sometimes see in there scutes are related to this in some way or other too. There have been several threads on these "squiggly lines" too.


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## Tccarolina (Dec 22, 2011)

stells2 said:


> Yes my greeks are kept dry... no humid hide... i can't remember the last time i sprayed the enclosure... the soil is bone dry... I use combined UV/heat bulbs... and suppliment with a D3 suppliment when they are being fed weeds... this is due to my climate and the failure of summer in the UK... and poor UV levels in the summer...
> 
> They do have water available 24/7... fed weeds.. with pellets added 2-3 times per week... calcium sources available at all times... temps 34 basking spot... 31 warm end... 24 cool end... night temps 18 (all temps are in celcius) soaked 3 times per week...
> 
> ...



This is very interesting. Have you raised hatchlings to adulthood using this setup? I would like to see some pictures of any adults you have raised from hatchlings this way. 
It seems a frequent question new greek tortoise owners ask is how to get their tortoises to drink from provided water. Some of my adults drink often from water that is dripped into a rock bowl in their enclosure. Most of them never drink, as far as I know. They must get their water strickly from their food. How do you ensure your tortoises are drinking?

I've always understood greeks were particularly apt to pyramid. 
I have the book "Naturalistic Keeping of Hermann's Tortoises" by Wolfgang Wegehaupt. His explanation of pyramiding matches what you say. In his book, he says that pyramiding is caused by internal drought stress and low calcium diets. He describes that keeping tortoises well-hydrated and feeding a wide variety of plants that are high in calcium, along with slow growth, are necessary. His are all raised outdoors in Germany, and he doesn't focus on raising humidity other than what his environment provides. He provides lots of water in saucers, but otherwise the substrate is well drained crushed limestone.
In spite of this, many of the pictures in his book show young tortoises that are still pyramiding slightly, indicating that he still hasn't managed to fully conquer it.

Personally, the only baby tortoises I raised were three Hermann's tortoises. I raised them on a dry substrate, with overhead heating. They were raised on soaked tortoise pellets offered daily, with calcium powder and Vitamin D drops. I soaked them once to twice a week. They grew fast, but were pyramiding badly. I moved them outside to my current Greek pen, and the pyramiding slowed down, but did not cease. I couldn't get over the pyramided look, and ended up trading them off.
Now, I'm avoiding raising baby Greeks til I'm sure I can raise them totally smooth. 

What attracts me so far to the humidity camp is the positive results people seem to be having. Meg90's greek tortoise http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Novalee-my-beautiful-sun-colored-Greek#axzz1hIhQJ1zR looks fantastic, and Tom is having good success. 

Andy Highfield wrote an article http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html that makes a lot of sense. He says that during rapid growth, the new scute material gets dehydrated easily, which causes it to flex inward, putting constant pressure on the newly expanding bone underneath to warp with it. This is the only theory I've read that gives an explanation for what what physically occurs. 

Further, many species of tortoises in dry climates reduce feeding and activity during the hot portions of the year, and are out feeding when the food is available during the wet season.
Greek tortoises are most active in the wild during the lush wet spring, which is the most humid part of the year. At the same time, they are not often living close enough to water to regularly drink. During the dry rest of the year, little food is available, so the tortoise is less active and growing very little, if at all.
This humidity theory is the theory that makes the most sense and seems to be working well for those trying it. I'm very open to opposing theories, if the evidence is there. I want to make the best decision I can on how to keep my tortoises best. The only way I can is by carefully considering the valid options and viewpoints. 

Stells2, do you have any pics of your adults?


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## ShadowRancher (Dec 22, 2011)

Tom said:


> I share your shell "cellular" observations, but you elaborated and put it into words much better than I did. I did a post on this a while back. Check it out and tell me what you think:
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread...ighlight=carapace+like+a+sponge#axzz1hI4diraQ
> 
> I don't know what the "real" science behind it is, but it is an observable and repeatable observation. I think the "squiggly lines" that we sometimes see in there scutes are related to this in some way or other too. There have been several threads on these "squiggly lines" too.



Ohh good, yes this thread is exactly what I meant. I took two plant classes this last semester and I love them so I was a little worried that I just had plant on the brain when I made that comparison, glad some one else came up with it. I've been meaning to surf around EBSCO and World of Science to brush up on keratin structures, so I'm not sure of the science. But very often with specialized layered tissues the layers are linked and highly dependent on the the health of the others, so I think it sounds reasonable that this observation has something to do with how growth pattern are set.

I'll post something once I get a chance to research a bit.


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## Tom (Dec 22, 2011)

That is great news Ana. I'm looking forward to hearing anything you learn or any insights that occur to you.


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## ShadowRancher (Dec 23, 2011)

I found some promising articles but they'll have to wait until after the holidays, no one seems to have a printer around here and I hate reading on the computer and not being able to make snarky comments in the margins....did I say snarky? I meant constructive.

And while I'm at it do you know if Tomas has anything published yet?


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## Tom (Dec 23, 2011)

ShadowRancher said:


> I found some promising articles but they'll have to wait until after the holidays, no one seems to have a printer around here and I hate reading on the computer and not being able to make snarky comments in the margins....did I say snarky? I meant constructive.
> 
> And while I'm at it do you know if Tomas has anything published yet?



Yes he does. He's got a paper on the first 6 years of distribution data for the sulcatas the he has re-introduced into the wild. Its in French and I'm still waiting for a copy. I'm sure there is more, but this is the one I really wanna see. He is compiling all sort of data and trying to get it organized with the intention of writing and releasing a book. Who knows when that will happen.


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## ascott (Dec 23, 2011)

> He says that during rapid growth, the new scute material gets dehydrated easily, which causes it to flex inward, putting constant pressure on the newly expanding bone underneath to warp with it.
> 
> During the dry rest of the year, little food is available, so the tortoise is less active and growing very little, if at all.



These are very interesting statements.....? Thank you for sharing this ...


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## wellington (Dec 23, 2011)

The way I am raising Tatum works for me. Tatum is only 9 months old, how do I know if it is the right way or best way. When he gets to adulthood with know problems, well then I can say it was the right way, for me, or him, that is. So all you out there insisting that your way is better or that their way isn't, do you have adult healthy tortoises to back up how well you are doing. Are you doing experiments, are you researching their native land, are you speaking with the "pros"? If not then listen and learn and yes share and let us do the same, peacefully please. By the way, my way is from Toms post
I do not mean to offend anyone or tick anyone off. I am just tired of the constant attacks on the same people, by the same people. We get it already, you don't agree, don't like them, jealous, whatever, we get it now let us learn in peace.
Thank you, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, Happy Holidays
P.S. This is for the ones out there that like to twist things. Tatum has pyramiding, followed wrong advice at first. Then I found Tom's post and now new growth coming in smooth.


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## IRTehDuckie (Jan 3, 2012)

A very interesting thread indeed. Tom, I have also gone by what the books said for the first couple years when i first had my tortoises/turtles ( I have had these guys since i was 13, am now 21 this year) but after the first couple years, i stopped reading all the books and started doing my own research on them. Like you, Tom, I found that nobody really knows anything, and it was a shock to me, so you just sort of have to put it all together with the bits and pieces of info that IS out there in their natural habitat and what they do when nobody is looking.

What lynnedit said, you just have to use your instincts, just like they would if they were out there on their own. 

I also completely 100% agree that they should have open availability to the RIGHT foods for them at all times with unlimited supply, which is what i try to do for my little Ted (even though in the picture its just red lettuce, but i give it to him once in a while as a treat), and he has grown quite a bit since august. His shell is getting smoother, in a healthy way, but i know he needs to be in the sun more, which is why im so desperately trying to make him his house outside on our front porch.

This is his size now, he will be 1 year on May 5th 2012


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## wellington (Jan 3, 2012)

Bad habits are hard to break . He/she is still a baby and you really need to take those cigs away before it's to late 
Sorry, couldn't resist.


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## IRTehDuckie (Jan 3, 2012)

haha does it help that they are an empty pack? haha thats funny  thanks for that laugh =]


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## lynnedit (Jan 3, 2012)

hey, it is a plant...nahhh...

any luck with the front porch enclosure?


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## Tom (Jan 3, 2012)

After seeing Neal's results and with the success of my new style of outdoor baby enclosures I am going to try more sunshine with my current batch of babies. I've held back 6 new hatchlings for this "experiment".

I am going to try all day sunshine, but WITH hydration and sleeping in humid quarters, and see how that one goes.


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## IRTehDuckie (Jan 3, 2012)

no not yet, but we have started growing his food ourselves, but getting our organic garden growing and starting him off, we've still yet to make any addition to the front porch, but id like to make his outside dwellings level with the windowsill so he'd be able to have constant sunlight, but have some sort of ramp or something so he can climb down and walk around when he pleases... i still have a lot of thinking to do about it lol


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## Tom (Jan 3, 2012)

Oh. My point for post #39 was that sunshine is good. You should get him outside as much as you can.


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## IRTehDuckie (Jan 3, 2012)

trust me, i try to, but i work from 7am till 6pm mostly, and then when i get home its already dark, but i put him in the sun whenever i can, i know he needs it.


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## ripper7777777 (Jan 9, 2012)

Not to continue it on, just apologizing, I did not see the Mod warning in the thread. I think the thread is full of good info but should be cleaned of all Pro and Anti Tom statements and anything not relating to the original post.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 9, 2012)

ripper7777777 said:


> Not to continue it on, just apologizing, I did not see the Mod warning in the thread. I think the thread is full of good info but should be cleaned of all Pro and Anti Tom statements and anything not relating to the original post.



Moderator Yvonne says:

I took Lance's advice and cleaned up this thread. If I've messed up, I take full responsibility...once you've deleted something it can't be reinstated. I must admit, though, there were no Pro Tom statements until the Anti Tom statements started appearing.

If I've missed something please let me know and I'll fix it.

From now on, we are going to try to run a more peaceful forum. We encourage everyone to share their opinions on tortoise-keeping, but please keep your opinions of the other members to yourselves.


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