# Advice with two tier enclosure



## George (Jul 6, 2010)

Hello Guys - I'm in the process of building a new enclosure for my two stars and have a quick question.

I am making a two tier enclosure and have been searching on forums and through google for ideas/picture's and have noticed that the two levels seem to be joined with no gap for light. Is this the best way to do it, originally I was thinking of putting the second tier on legs but was having trouble with the steepness of the ramp. 

my stars like a darker area in which they hide so this will not be a probably for them but should it have a gap for light?

Any ideas, would be gratefully received!


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## George (Jul 6, 2010)

George said:


> Hello Guys - I'm in the process of building a new enclosure for my two stars and have a quick question.
> 
> I am making a two tier enclosure and have been searching on forums and through google for ideas/picture's and have noticed that the two levels seem to be joined with no gap for light. Is this the best way to do it, originally I was thinking of putting the second tier on legs but was having trouble with the steepness of the ramp.
> 
> ...



No replies!? ok.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jul 6, 2010)

I'd likely make the area under the ramp into a hide-area...keep it dark.

How large an enclosure are you planning?


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## Madkins007 (Jul 6, 2010)

George said:


> Hello Guys - I'm in the process of building a new enclosure for my two stars and have a quick question.
> 
> I am making a two tier enclosure and have been searching on forums and through google for ideas/picture's and have noticed that the two levels seem to be joined with no gap for light. Is this the best way to do it, originally I was thinking of putting the second tier on legs but was having trouble with the steepness of the ramp.
> 
> ...



If you make the under area the hide, then darkness would seem appropriate.

I had a nice, long ramp for a while and had troubles finding a material that allowed traction but was easy to clean. I ended up using bathtub decals, but they did not hold up well, then my guys just sort of outgrew it.


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## Michael Bird (Jul 6, 2010)

I am actually working on plans for a two level enclosure for my tortoise as well. In a discussion on another tortoise forum, someone suggested using this stuff to cover the ramp and the upper area where loose substrate won't work. Attaching it with velcro would make it very easy to remove and machine wash the surface when it gets dirty.
http://www.petco.com/product/104018...-8381-DE11-B7F3-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA


This is the layout that I'm thinking of using (created with Google's SketchUp program) in the very limited space that I have available for my 5.5" Greek if you want to do a comparison. I do have an open area between the upper and lower levels to allow light from the basking/UVB light, but if the consensus is that it's not necessary to light/heat the lower level then I can expand the upper level to give Gracie even more room to move around. For reference, the items outside the box in the overhead shot are the pieces of the upper level aligned to show how much actual additional floor space is gained with the second level. The main "hide" goes completely beneath the ramp to provide plenty of room for her to dig in as much as she wants to. The "window" in the front will most likely be 1/4" chicken wire or something similar on hinges and a frame to allow ventilation, to let me see Gracie inside, and so that I can open it to reach inside the enclosure as needed. The substrate in the lower level will fill the box to just below the bottom of the window, providing enough depth for Gracie to completely bury herself if she wants to do that instead of going in the hide. The top will be covered with the same wire mesh as the side window. I will probably also build it so that the upper and lower levels can be separated for easy cleaning and easier moving if the box needs to be relocated. I will be adding a barrier of some kind around the open inner edge of the upper level so that the tortoise can't fall off, likely with upright wooden dowels placed as a fence to prevent her from getting injured but still allow light from the basking lamp to reach the lower level.


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## chairman (Jul 7, 2010)

I've got a 3 level enclosure for my torts. It used to be 4, but my tortoises hated floor 4 so I removed it. There's a thread on here somewhere about it. It is constructed with a wooden frame with plexiglass walls and floors. I used .25" plexi for floors and thin stuff for walls since they had wood to support them. Ramps are made of plexi. I used non-toxic wood glue to put substrate on the ramps for traction. The overall enclosure is 4' long, 2' wide, and about 6' tall, though the bottom 18" are for a storage cabinet and the top 18" are airspace for hanging CHEs. The entire height of the 2' sides are doors, both sides, for access to the enclosure from either end. I can also access from the top, but this is only convenient for adjusting lamp heights.

The bottom level is 4' x 2'. At either end (2') are 8" wide ramps at a 30 degree angle. The ramps sit on top of the substrate and don't quite go all the way to floor level of the next floor. Most of the floor allows for 4 inches of substrate, but I sunk a basement into it for a spot that gets to 10" deep. Second floor is 8 inches above the first. It is 32" x 2', and has ramps on both ends (2') to the third floor. Third floor is 32" x 2'... I think you get the picture. The ramps all run parallel to one another.

I keep an inch of water in the basement and have an aquarium rope heater running to keep the humidity up (I have hingebacks). I have a CHE in the bottom storage cabinet (opposite of the basement) to raise the temp of the bottom floor in winter. I have 2 CHEs hanging over the 3rd floor. They are all thermostatically controlled. Usually the top and bottom floor are the warmest (unless I have the cabinet heater off) and the middle floor is the coolest.

I have been running the enclosure for a while with no serious problems, though I have tweaked it a couple times. I designed it so that I could remove ramps, replace them with floor inserts, and add the occasional dividing wall just in case tortoises need to be separated. My hingebacks generally prefer to hang out underneath the ramps on floor 1 or buried in the substrate/under fake plants on floor 3. I keep food and water on floors 2 and 3. I have generally found that between the rope heater and the CHEs slowly evaporating water from the 3rd floor dish I keep my humidity up at around 70%. I also moisten the substrate using a sprayer every couple days. No one has ever had any problems navigating the ramps and I never find anyone flipped. Occasionally a tortoise attempts to take a dive off a ramp, but the maximum height the tortoise can "fall" from is about 4-5" into several inches of coir/moss substrate and I've never had any injuries as a result.


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## Michael Bird (Jul 7, 2010)

You intrigued me with your comments about a four level enclosure, so I went looking for the thread. Here's the link: http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-10125.html

I really like what you did with this layout! I don't know if I would use plexi for the floors just because I'm not a fan of clear floors and my Greek wasn't very happy with the glass walls on her temporary aquarium home that she lived in before her current bookshelf box. The plexiglass would let light (but not UVB) filter through the different layers, though, so the tortoises (and people) can see what is happening on all of the layers. I don't think the ramps would work for my Gracie since she would (stubbornly) keep trying to climb over the barriers and fall down to the next level. 

I might use your idea and add a third level to my enclosure plans just to give her even more room since I can always expand up, but there's no room in my house for a larger base footprint. I could probably just add a third layer that is identical to my second, with the ramp going up from 2 to 3 the same way it goes from 1 to 2. The main problem I can see with this is that it might confuse my tortoise having to go in a full circle to get to the next ramp.

Or, if I decide to completely enclose each layer with a floor all the way across except the opening for the ramp and no open space in the middle for light to pass down from the basking lamp, I can start the ramp at one end of the long side, go flat for a few inches when it reaches the second level, then continue the same ramp at the same slope up to the third level. This would cause problems with lighting, and possibly heat, but would solve my issue with needing a railing around the edges of the upper level(s).


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## George (Jul 7, 2010)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> I'd likely make the area under the ramp into a hide-area...keep it dark.
> 
> How large an enclosure are you planning?



Thank you Terry for your reply - I too think I may go with the covered area as a 'hide-area' they really do like the darker side!

It's not that big, hence the two levels, we live in a small flat and they live in my bedroom on top of my chester draws so size will be 36"(L) x 21"(W) x 10"(D) and hopefully half the size for second tier. I know they could do with more space but i am trying my best with what I have.
Would like to move but the way our new government is going this may not be as soon as we would like!



Madkins007 said:


> George said:
> 
> 
> > Hello Guys - I'm in the process of building a new enclosure for my two stars and have a quick question.
> ...



Thanks Madkins007 - I think I will use the under area as the hide as they do not use hides but prefer to sleep under the fern trees where it is a bit darker.

I am thinking about using the wooden edging strips to form steps on the ramp, here's hoping it works!


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## George (Jul 7, 2010)

Michael Bird said:


> I am actually working on plans for a two level enclosure for my tortoise as well. In a discussion on another tortoise forum, someone suggested using this stuff to cover the ramp and the upper area where loose substrate won't work. Attaching it with velcro would make it very easy to remove and machine wash the surface when it gets dirty.
> http://www.petco.com/product/104018...-8381-DE11-B7F3-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA
> 
> 
> This is the layout that I'm thinking of using (created with Google's SketchUp program) in the very limited space that I have available for my 5.5" Greek if you want to do a comparison. I do have an open area between the upper and lower levels to allow light from the basking/UVB light, but if the consensus is that it's not necessary to light/heat the lower level then I can expand the upper level to give Gracie even more room to move around. For reference, the items outside the box in the overhead shot are the pieces of the upper level aligned to show how much actual additional floor space is gained with the second level. The main "hide" goes completely beneath the ramp to provide plenty of room for her to dig in as much as she wants to. The "window" in the front will most likely be 1/4" chicken wire or something similar on hinges and a frame to allow ventilation, to let me see Gracie inside, and so that I can open it to reach inside the enclosure as needed. The substrate in the lower level will fill the box to just below the bottom of the window, providing enough depth for Gracie to completely bury herself if she wants to do that instead of going in the hide. The top will be covered with the same wire mesh as the side window. I will probably also build it so that the upper and lower levels can be separated for easy cleaning and easier moving if the box needs to be relocated. I will be adding a barrier of some kind around the open inner edge of the upper level so that the tortoise can't fall off, likely with upright wooden dowels placed as a fence to prevent her from getting injured but still allow light from the basking lamp to reach the lower level.



Great Looking Enclosure Michael! Can't wait to see the finished product! I like the way the platform goes around the enclosure - might steal that idea and there is a good dark place in the corner - lol

It will be interesting to hear what people's views on the light/ heat issue over multiple levels as I have been thinking about this issue myself!



Michael Bird said:


> Or, if I decide to completely enclose each layer with a floor all the way across except the opening for the ramp



wouldn't you need to put something around the opening, and making only one way up and down, so that Gracie doesn't just drop down if she walked around in that part of the enclosure?


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## Stephanie Logan (Jul 7, 2010)

Did you already see this thread? Be sure to check out the photos on the second page as well.

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-12295.html


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## Michael Bird (Jul 7, 2010)

George said:


> wouldn't you need to put something around the opening, and making only one way up and down, so that Gracie doesn't just drop down if she walked around in that part of the enclosure?



I would still need a railing next to the opening for the ramp, but not all the way around the enclosure as I would need it in the pictures that I posted.


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## George (Jul 7, 2010)

Stephanie Logan said:


> Did you already see this thread? Be sure to check out the photos on the second page as well.
> 
> http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-12295.html



Yes Stephanie I found this thread - isn't the finished product just brillant! - if only I had the space!!


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## chairman (Jul 8, 2010)

Michael Bird said:


> ...I don't know if I would use plexi for the floors just because I'm not a fan of clear floors and my Greek wasn't very happy with the glass walls on her temporary aquarium home that she lived in before her current bookshelf box. The plexiglass would let light (but not UVB) filter through the different layers, though, so the tortoises (and people) can see what is happening on all of the layers. I don't think the ramps would work for my Gracie since she would (stubbornly) keep trying to climb over the barriers and fall down to the next level...



I forgot that I never posted any pics of the finished product, but the floors didn't remain "clear"; they've each got a couple inches of substrate on them. That's what those barriers were in place for- to hold substrate in. No light filters through the levels, though ambient light comes in from the front/back and sides. In truth, I only used plexi for its rot resistance. 

I wouldn't worry about your tortoise getting confused about how to navigate the enclosure; torts are pretty smart and generally figure out pretty quickly how to get from point A to point B, especially if point A is where the food is and point B is a favorite hiding spot. But a possible solution would be to have one ramp that traveled the longest dimension but went from floor 1 to 3. The bottom floor would be a solid piece of wood, you'd cut a slot in the middle of the second floor that was large enough for the tortoise to get through and cut a slot up at a top corner for access to the top.


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## Michael Bird (Jul 8, 2010)

chairman said:


> But a possible solution would be to have one ramp that traveled the longest dimension but went from floor 1 to 3. The bottom floor would be a solid piece of wood, you'd cut a slot in the middle of the second floor that was large enough for the tortoise to get through and cut a slot up at a top corner for access to the top.



I thought of this as well, but I haven't been able to figure out a way to do it without either making very steep ramps, or using a fairly long enclosure. If I had room for a long enclosure, then I wouldn't really need a multiple level box. I know that my Gracie can climb up pretty steep slopes, but I'm concerned that she would end up sliding/falling down a steep ramp even with good traction. The risk of injury from falling all the way down the ramp makes me hesitant to use that method. Stacked ramps (one directly above the other) would be easier for her to navigate, but would definitely block all light from the basking lamp on the upper level from reaching the bottom. A secondary light source would probably be needed - maybe LED lamps on the lower levels to provide light but not have a hot bulb too close to the tortoise.


Maybe something like this (there would need to be barriers around the holes so she can't fall in from the side):


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## George (Jul 9, 2010)

Michael Bird said:


> chairman said:
> 
> 
> > But a possible solution would be to have one ramp that traveled the longest dimension but went from floor 1 to 3. The bottom floor would be a solid piece of wood, you'd cut a slot in the middle of the second floor that was large enough for the tortoise to get through and cut a slot up at a top corner for access to the top.
> ...



It looks good but the light would be an issue, my bottom layer is complete so just need to decide whether the second tier goes across the back, side or at an angle? need to get the cardboard out and see which one cuts out more light and if the 'cool dark bit' will get warm enough and how the lighting will hang?

It would be good to hear others views on this dilema!


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## BuffsTorts (Jul 9, 2010)

Goto my thread "Kitty Condo"
for a picture of what I just built, its a 2 tier TUB enclosure


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