# Carapace Like A Sponge



## Tom (Oct 2, 2010)

We all talk about how the carapace is a hard, impermeable, keratinous, shell, "like fingernails". On the other hand we caution against putting things like shell "conditioners" and olive oil on the shell because it is a living, breathing thing with feelings. This has often puzzled me. Is it a "dead" layer, like our hair? Or is it a living breathing membrane with nerve endings, more like our skin, with an outer "dead" layer and living tissue just underneath.

Well I've had a new observation due to my unique situation. I first noticed that my baby sulcatas shells looked more "ridgy" after being out in the sun and the hot dry air for a couple of hours. After a few minutes of soaking or spraying they look better and get back to "normal" very quickly. I initially attributed this to light refraction or some sort of visual "effect". Now I've got a whole bunch of these pardalis pardalis leopards. I got them within days of them hatching and they've been getting daily soaks, multiple shell sprays a day, high humidity round the clock and humid hide boxes. Their shells are perfectly smooth and looking great as they grow. Here's where it gets interesting. I started noticing that after sunning sessions their shells would look a little sunken in. The "shields" would actually appear to be sunken in. Almost like reverse pyramiding. It was much more pronounced than in the sulcata babies, but in hindsight it is the same kind of thing. Within minutes of being back in the water and humidity the shells round back out and look totally smooth again. Its as if the shell is a "sponge". As it dries out in the hot sun and dry air, it shrivels and sinks in. When you rehydrate it, it fills back in and expands, returning to its original wet shape and volume. This is another reason why their shells just look better wet in pics. The shell absorbs water, all the ridges fill in, and the shell has a smoother appearance. I don't notice this phenomenon on my older bigger torts, but I wonder.

I bring this all up because it HAS to have something to do with pyramiding. We've talked about not being able to explain EXACTLY what is going on with pyramiding at a cellular level. It is now overwhelmingly clear that moisture and humidity will prevent pyramiding, but I still can't tell you why on a biological, cellular level. Well I'm convinced that this has something to do with it. Its almost like "turgor" pressure in plant cells. Based on the study that Danny cited, I've been ready to agree that pyramiding is at least in part due to chronic dehydration and the resulting problems in hatchlings. Now, with these observations, I'm not so sure. I never thought of any of my previous leopard or sulcata hatchlings as sickly, dehydrated or unhealthy in any way. Quite the contrary, they all seemed very healthy to me and everyone who saw them. They were, however, constantly dry. Dry hot air outside, here in the CA high desert. Hot dry air under their CHE and basking lamps, on a dry substrate in their indoor enclosures. The only time their shells got wet was during an occasional soak. After which, I'd dry them off before putting them back on their rabbit pellets. ( For any newbies reading this, how I used to keep them is ALL WRONG!)

For all these years, all these desert species of torts have been growing up with their shells in this dried-up, shriveled state all the time. It is only due to my new way of raising hatchlings that I'm even observing these things. It seems that keeping the "sponge" wet and in its expanded, filled-up state during the first few inches of growth is the key to preventing pyramiding.

A note on humidity and its role in all this: When I recently was working in New Orleans in the Spring, I noticed that due to the high humidity (90's most days) if something got wet it stayed wet. I'd pour cold water on my shirt or my dog and despite being in the direct sun and 90-100 degree temps, everything would just stay wet. All day long. The only way to dry anything was to bring it inside the air conditioned hotel. So for our tortoises, humidity is a means of keeping things wet, once you get them wet. The more humid it is the slower the tortoise loses external moisture due to evaporation and internal moisture (hydration) due to evaporation through respiration. In other words, the more humid it is, the harder (and slower) it is for them to dry out, bringing their shells to that desiccated state that I've been noticing outside.

I'm looking forward to hearing other peoples thoughts and observations on this.


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## Turtulas-Len (Oct 3, 2010)

You may have something with this thought, Last Thursday Sept 30 we had several inches of rain,and during a break in the rain I went out to check on everything,Two of the MT Tortoises were getting frisky under one of the maple trees and they were DRY everything else was soaked and rain was still dropping from the trees, I thought this was strange, so strange that I took a few pics. This is something that I had never noticed before but I wondered how they dried off so quick.The pics show that everything is wet but the tortoises.


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## Shelli (Oct 3, 2010)

It is very humid where I live here in the Caribbean (75-100%) all the full grown old aged red-foots i have seen have no pyramiding and I can assure you their diet is nothing like what most people feed on this board... the ones I see regularly eat grass all day and don't seem to have any other suppliment other than dog poo... :/

Edited to add I just checked humidity it is not even 10am yet and humidity is 90%.


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## jackrat (Oct 3, 2010)

Great post.Tom.I have an antique male redfoot with a perfectly slick shell.When I wet the group down,you can literally see his shell drying.It isn't running off the shell.His skin even dries before the others'.All in this picture were sprinkled at the same time.He is on the far right.Compare his carapace to the rest of the group.This was taken within two minutes of being sprinkled.


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## Tom (Oct 3, 2010)

Funny, I noticed that the first time you posted this pic. I hadn't even considered what you and Len have pointed out here about different torts drying out at different rates.


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## Madkins007 (Oct 3, 2010)

There is a difference between absorbent and permeable. The outer layers are keratin and such, and obviously swell and contract with exposure to wet and dry.

The question is- does this surface activity have a real affect on underlying tissues? The wetness should not be being 'sucked in' deeply if what we think we know about shell anatomy is accurate, but that does not mean that the underlying tissue is not responding somehow.

I have been wondering if there might not be a response in there somewhere that causes the various tissues to respond differently...

For example, and this is just a sudden thought, but... what if dryness 'locks' the last growth ring somehow so it does not 'flex' for the next one, and the new ring 'lifts' the old one? 
 
Simple pyramiding does not seem to affect the bone, so maybe it is something as simple as keeping the new, sensitive, and very absorbent* new rings 'flexible' as the newest ring is forming? Whatever pyramiding is, it is happening right at the line between the newest rings on the scutes.

(*- we know that new rings can absorb water and swell- we see it all the time, especially on the plastron.)

Its an awkward analogy, but think about painting or staining something. You are always supposed to keep a 'wet edge' as you cover more area. If you let the edge of the paint dry and then try to paint past that point, you get a visible difference.

Here is another thing, Tom- if this is anywhere near the right explanation, then your misting experiment would be right, as would things like 'damp root hides' the article from Radiata mentions, and high humidity, and heavily planted/misted plants (that would moisten the shell as they pass), and other processes that people have tried with differing degrees of success. 

It would also explain why HYDRATION alone is not doing the trick- it is not water from within that is doing it- it is simply dampness on the shell. 

Dang- if this IS true, we might be able to develop some sort of ointment that is mostly water (like Aloe Vera, Spenco Second Skin, etc.) we can apply every so often to provide long-term moisture right on the shell, or maybe a sort of 'wet curtain' that would rewet the shell every time they pass by it.

Or, better yet- rig up a system where there is an automatic shower that mists/sprays your tort with water whenever it passes. Forget timer-based misters or hand misting all the time- let the tortoise and a sensor do it. You could even rig it so the substrate there is drained better or even recycles the water.

Exciting possibilities!


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## DeanS (Oct 3, 2010)

After witnessing this at Tom's on Friday, I made some adjustments to my torts' regimen...I feed them, spray them and let them run around in the yard for a half an hour or so (supervised, of course). Then when they're ready to nap, it's off to the kiddie pool, hwere they run around again for 5 or 10 minutes, then find a spot where they just crash...usually it's in the water which I pre-fill and allow the sun to warm it up a bit...*NOTE: The pool is at about a 5 degree slant, so they can access the dry basking area which gets to about 125 degrees, thanks to the high desert heat and sitting on concrete.* So for the 4 hours or so that they spend in the pool they are in the water at least 2 hours (plus I manually splash them every half hour or so...to keep the carapacr wet) Then I repeat the first part of their day and when they settle down (usually around 4 or 5 PM), I put 'em in for the night! Once they settle into their Tortoise house...I give 'em one final spray...until morning.


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## Tom (Oct 3, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> Here is another thing, Tom- if this is anywhere near the right explanation, then your misting experiment would be right, as would things like 'damp root hides' the article from Radiata mentions, and high humidity, and heavily planted/misted plants (that would moisten the shell as they pass), and other processes that people have tried with differing degrees of success.
> 
> It would also explain why HYDRATION alone is not doing the trick- it is not water from within that is doing it- it is simply dampness on the shell.
> 
> ...



Sort of lends credence to the olive oil or mineral oil on the carapace theory, doesn't it. 

I'm taking a leap here, but I would surmise that my hatchling sulcatas are so "healthy" from all the hydration and so "smooth" from all the humidity and shell spraying. My new leopard hatchlings are showing every indication of going the same way as my sulcata hatchlings. Just nothing but glowing health, smooth carapaces and good growth.


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## Kristina (Oct 3, 2010)

I noticed the same "sunkenness" with my baby Cherryhead. I was keeping him in a sweater box, on coconut coir with a hide stuffed with damp sphagnum moss. I was not happy with the humidity level, and his scutes looked sunken in. The affected area was the scutes that he would have been born with. The new growth, the growth he had attained since hatching, was raised in higher ridges than the baby scales. 

I switched his enclosure to a planted vivarium. Since then, he has remained smooth with no indication of the previous sunken look. 

I do believe this was in direct correlation with the humidity level. Tyler Stewart mentioned something similar to this about his Yellowfoot babies. In both the sweater box and the viv, the baby Cherryhead was getting misted several times a day. But in the sweater box he was dehydrating faster. In the viv, he is doing fantastic.


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## DeanS (Oct 3, 2010)

Tom said:


> Sort of lends credence to the olive oil or mineral oil on the carapace theory, doesn't it.
> 
> I'm taking a leap here, but I would surmise that my hatchling sulcatas are so "healthy" from all the hydration and so "smooth" from all the humidity and shell spraying. My new leopard hatchlings are showing every indication of going the same way as my sulcata hatchlings. Just nothing but glowing health, smooth carapaces and good growth.



As I've witnessed, these torts are the healthiest babies I've EVER seen for their respective ages! I'm still blown away at the size of Tom's 3-4 month old sulcatas...they are all at least 1/3 larger than my yearlings and the Gpp babies show no vulnerability whatsoever...OUTSTANDING work...I see a new how-to book in the not-too-distant future...kneel before the GURU


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## egyptiandan (Oct 3, 2010)

Here's something that might lend a bit of credence to Tom's theory.  Scute material is thinest when a tortoise is a hatchling. Scute material isn't laid down at the edges of a scute like one would think. Each new addition/wrinkle to the scute happens underneath the original/hatchling scute part of the scute (the textured bit of scute). So as each bit of new scute is formed it's like growing a whole new scute. This means that as a tortoise grows older the hatchling area of the scute becomes the thickest in term of scute material and the last bits, furtherest away, the thinest. This is how some water turtles are able to shed their scutes once a year as they are growing new scutes every time they add size to their scutes.

Danny


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## DeanS (Oct 3, 2010)

Exactly! Soaking and spraying as early as possible is going to be the key here...if you start as soon as the egg sac is gone and healed, you are not going to have to worry about pyramiding! It's a bold statement, I know! But there is just too much proof in the pudding right now. Remember! HEAT! HUMIDITY! HYDRATION! Those are the keys.


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## dmmj (Oct 3, 2010)

could it be because of their still soft shells?


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## PeanutbuttER (Oct 3, 2010)

So, how does this explain why the first few inches of smooth growth seems to dictate how the rest of the shell will come in? Ie, after they're a couple inches long then there's less risk of pyramiding?


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## DeanS (Oct 3, 2010)

We all know how permeable a tort is to begin with...add the fact that the carapce takes some time to harden and voila! It's as permeable as the rest of the body and once it hardens and the tort has grown a few inches then it becomes a matter of maintenance rather than repair. It's all falling into place!


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## Tom (Oct 3, 2010)

PeanutbuttER said:


> So, how does this explain why the first few inches of smooth growth seems to dictate how the rest of the shell will come in? Ie, after they're a couple inches long then there's less risk of pyramiding?



For sulcatas, the size where humidity doesn't seem to matter as much anymore is around 6-8", from what I can tell.

The pattern of growth, either smooth or pyramided, is established in the first few weeks of life. Once they reach a certain size it doesn't seem to matter what you do as far as humidity. This also corresponds to the time in the wild when they would start staying above ground more of the time.

As I said before, I don't see any of this "sinking" or sponginess in my adults. It must be that baby's scutes are thinner and more "spongy". With age and size the scutes seem to get thicker, tougher and lose their "spongy" qualities.


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## jackrat (Oct 3, 2010)

Just my two cents worth.Could it be that the very thinness of the scutes in younger torts that is contributing to their deformation? As the scutes push outward in growth,wouldn't they exert an upward force on the center of the scute? If this scute is already conformed to a convex surface,(the plastron),the natural tendency would be to rise in the middle.Like pushing on opposite ends of an unstrung bow. As scutes grow,they exert an equalized force upon each other.In most scutes this force is transferred from multiple edges of the scute,pushing the center up.A softer,more pliable(hydrated) scute would be more able to resist transforming this lateral force into a vertical force.While we're making analogies,think of it this way.Push on the ends of a cooked lasagna noodle.It won't rise in the middle like the unstrung bow did. A thicker scute should be able to take the lateral force with less chance of deforming vertically,just as the bow is a lot harder to deform than the noodle.Just throwing this out there,for what it's worth.


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## Madkins007 (Oct 3, 2010)

Sadly, I KNOW that smooth Red-foots can start to pyramid even after a couple years old. The individual bumps are more rounded or flat-topped, but they happen.

If the key really is keeping the active growth areas damp, then using oils/lotions to 'trap' oils sure might possibly help. 

I'm looking at my copy of Obst's 'Turtles, Tortoises and Terrapins' and on p.170 is a simplified drawing of what Dan describes.

As the new growth comes in, it is a thin piece under the old one, but the growing edge is sort of tucked into the groove between each scute, like the edges of a fitted sheet. As the tort grows, the curved 'tuck-in' edge is sort of pulled out and flattened to allow the next one to develop in the groove.

What if the whole issue is just making sure the new lamina is soft enough to flatten as it comes out of the groove for the next one? This might also explain why when we see a cut-away of the pyramids they look spongy.

Let's build an imaginary bed- it is an air bed that gets longer and wider as you inflate it. Next, put a bunch of fitted sheets on it, the biggest on the bottom, and each one on top being a bit smaller. 

As we inflate the bed, the sheets SHOULD smoothly ride up and slip off, collapsing into a thin heap on top. If we starch the sheets, to simulate dryness, they would still pop off, but form a fluffy pyramid as they did so. 

The evidence for the theory might be as simple as finding, cutting, and carefully examining the scutes of a pyramided shell. Is the perimeter of the lamina curved or somehow thickened compared to a non-pyramided shell?

I think we have a solid working theory and/or care suggestion here! "Keep the new growth on the shell from drying out, especially on younger tortoises." Or, maybe "The younger the tortoise, the more important it is to make sure the shell does not get too dry."


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## jackrat (Oct 3, 2010)

jackrat said:


> Just my two cents worth.Could it be that the very thinness of the scutes in younger torts that is contributing to their deformation? As the scutes push outward in growth,wouldn't they exert an upward force on the center of the scute? If this scute is already conformed to a convex surface,(the plastron),the natural tendency would be to rise in the middle.Like pushing on opposite ends of an unstrung bow. As scutes grow,they exert an equalized force upon each other.In most scutes this force is transferred from multiple edges of the scute,pushing the center up.A softer,more pliable(hydrated) scute would be more able to resist transforming this lateral force into a vertical force.While we're making analogies,think of it this way.Push on the ends of a cooked lasagna noodle.It won't rise in the middle like the unstrung bow did. A thicker scute should be able to take the lateral force with less chance of deforming vertically,just as the bow is a lot harder to deform than the noodle.Just throwing this out there,for what it's worth.


Sorry.I meant to say the convex surface of the carapace,not the plastron.


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## chairman (Oct 3, 2010)

The effect that Tom has noticed on his young sulcatas is very apparent in my adult Home's hingebacks. I have one male in particular, who is much lighter than any of my others, whose shell really starts to look like it is flaking up at the edges when he lets himself dry out too much. The ridges are pretty extreme- they elevate about 2 mm above normal. After a good soak, his shell returns to its normal smoothness. My darker shelled hingebacks have a similar response, but it is not as pronounced. I'm not sure how much it relates to pyramiding since smaller torts are usually harder to pyramid than bigger ones, and hingebacks have very weird shells compared to most other tortoises.

As I type this I begin to wonder if the darkness/lightness of a tortoises shell affects pyramiding somehow. Young sulcata with light shells pyramid, older sulcata with darker shells don't pyramid very easily... and isn't there a blonde sulcata on here that is pyramiding even though its cage-mates aren't? But then again, aldabs and stars grow pretty bumpy, and they're pretty dark, so there has to be a little more to it than just color alone.

However, I do agree with Tom, my hingebacks do appear to have pretty "spongy" shells.


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## Madkins007 (Oct 4, 2010)

Chairman, I would wonder if shell color is a secondary issue to behaviors- maybe the lighter shelled wild torts spend more time in the sun, so the light color reflects some of the intensity, while most dark shells spend less time in the open sun? Just a thought, so far.

For a moment I wondered if melanin might play a role, but melanin heavy Red-foots pyramid with the best of them.


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## Seiryu (Oct 4, 2010)

Tom said:


> For sulcatas, the size where humidity doesn't seem to matter as much anymore is around 6-8", from what I can tell.
> 
> The pattern of growth, either smooth or pyramided, is established in the first few weeks of life. Once they reach a certain size it doesn't seem to matter what you do as far as humidity. This also corresponds to the time in the wild when they would start staying above ground more of the time.



Haven't been on in a while, but I have been lurking.

So the pattern of smoothness VS bumpiness in your opinion is from the first few weeks of life.

I do have a question then. Most breeders just will not sell hatchlings at younger than 4 months, for good reasons. I don't think the whole spraying the shells of desert type tortoises is common knowledge to most breeders.

So if they are not sprayed early on, then likely most hatchling tortoises you get regardless of what YOU do to them when they arrive, may not prevent the pyramiding anyways?

Your sulcatas and leopards were obtained by you from the get go, and are growing smooth with the soaks and spraying the shells. But not everyone has access to torts when they are first born either.

So far my Sif (leopard tortoise, babcocki) is as smooth as she was when I got her, and I spray her shell 4-10 times a day, with humidity at 65-95% at all times. I am hoping it stays this way, but if it's true that they need to be well hydrated, shells sprayed, high humidity right off, then likely what I'm doing (according to a lot of examples) might slow things down, but won't prevent pyramiding fully then.


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## Tom (Oct 4, 2010)

Seiryu said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > For sulcatas, the size where humidity doesn't seem to matter as much anymore is around 6-8", from what I can tell.
> ...



Rob, you hit the nail on the head. I made mention of this before. Its great that those of us in this "movement" are able to reach pet owners with individual torts, but the real damage is being done before people even get their torts. How do we reach these old time breeders? I'm working on the ones I know, including the friend I got my new leos from. I'm sending him regular pics and updates so he can see how good his torts can look and how healthy they can be. Its one thing to sit there and try to tell an experienced tort person how you think it ought to be. Its entirely another to SHOW them their own stock looking better and healthier than they've ever seen! The guy I got Daisy from is pretty impressed with my new hatchlings.

This has been a big problem for me lately in trying to obtain new torts. Breeders don't wanna hear it. The only thing any of us can do is use breeders who do "get it". Then, the others will have no choice, but to listen. This is why I constantly refer people to the Fifes. There prices are competitive, but other breeders sometimes under cut them. I can't understand how a few dollars one way or the other plays any part whatsoever in someone's decision to buy a baby tort. In my opinion, one should buy the healthiest tort possible, even if its twice the money. Really, in ten years is $10 or $20 going to matter at all? The thing is, you can usually see the pyramiding when it is starting in babies. There is usually a distinct edge to the scutes. You can catch it with your fingernail. If you pick one that is pretty smooth and get it right into the humidity and moisture from the day you get it, it will minimize any previous damage, if there has been any.

BTW, most breeders want to move out their babies pretty quick. Four months is longer than most will wait. Four weeks is more the norm in my experience. Some sulcata breeders push them out a few days after they absorb the yolk sac and start eating.


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## chairman (Oct 5, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> Chairman, I would wonder if shell color is a secondary issue to behaviors- maybe the lighter shelled wild torts spend more time in the sun, so the light color reflects some of the intensity, while most dark shells spend less time in the open sun? Just a thought, so far.
> 
> For a moment I wondered if melanin might play a role, but melanin heavy Red-foots pyramid with the best of them.



I can see the color and behavior thing going both ways. Light tortoises would need to spend more time in the sun than dark tortoises to get adequately warmed up. However, if the dark pigment in tortoise shells works like it does in people, then darker tortoises will require more time in the sun than lighter ones in order for their body to produce vitamin D for the processing of calcium. But since darker tortoises will generate more heat in that time, one would think they'd have greater dehydration issues than lighter ones. Sort of a catch 22 there.

Your example with the redfoots sparked another thought in my head... redfoots get shell rot much more easily than sulcatas. I would think this is a sign that there ought to be a significant difference between the shell materials in the two species (that ought to affect pyramiding). Yet it was the "mist till they drip" redfoot advice that finally got baby sulcatas growing nice and smooth. So... it seems that pyramiding is prevented using the same method with two tortoises with seemingly different shell chemistry.

And yet another thing that confounds me... all the big tortoises seem to face their biggest risk of pyramiding before they reach 6" SCL. Yet you almost have to make an effort to get many of the tortoises that never get bigger than 6" SCL to pyramid. If all tortoise scutes grow the same way, then why don't the little guys have the same problems as the bigger guys? Are the scutes on young small-breed tortoises thicker than those of young large-breed tortoises? Anyone have any x-rays of baby tortoises of various species that we could compare scute thickness on?

I guess I should consider myself lucky that I've only been pondering pyramiding for a couple years, and not a couple decades... it seems like it could lead to chronic headaches.


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## Tom (Oct 5, 2010)

Mike, I have a theory on why the little torts seem to pyramid less. As long as I've been keeping torts, most people keep Testudo species on a more humidity inducing, natural substrate. The norm for so many years for the "desert" species was rabbit pellets or grass hay pellets. I used to use sani-chips. Very dry. Also, because most Testudo tend to be a bit shy (compared to a sulcata, anyway) they typically have several hides in their enclosures. These hides would tend to stay fairly humid on top of a natural substrate. Think how many sulcata and leopard enclosure photos you've seen on the forum here with no hide or just an open fronted dry hide.


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## Madkins007 (Oct 5, 2010)

@Chairman, re: shell color- I suspect that shell color does a lot for things for a tortoise- camouflage has to be a big one, protecting it from overheating in really sunny habitats, helping it warm or thermoregulate, etc. I suspect there may be SOME difference in chemistry- not only shell rot, but why Testudos seem to pyramid very little compared to some others, etc. 

Have we ever put together a master list of pyramiding species (that should not pyramid)? We know Red-foot, Leopard, and Sulcata are at high risk from this thread.

Do Testudos pyramid? Hinge-backs? North American Torts? Chacos? I admit my research in the other species has not been as deep as it has in Red-foots.


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## dmmj (Oct 5, 2010)

these are the species I have seen pyramiding in, either in real life or in pics. leopards sulcatas redfoots, CDT, 1 RES and russians. To date I personally have never seen it in box, hingebacks, or any others I would be interested in knowing if anyone has seen any in these other species. Oh wait I forgot to add aldabras to the pyramided species.


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## Kristina (Oct 5, 2010)

Greeks, Stars, Radiateds...


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## DeanS (Oct 5, 2010)

dmmj said:


> these are the species I have seen pyramiding in, either in real life or in pics. leopards sulcatas redfoots, CDT, 1 RES and russians. To date I personally have never seen it in box, hingebacks, or any others I would be interested in knowing if anyone has seen any in these other species. Oh wait I forgot to add aldabras to the pyramided species.



...and, of course, Galaps!


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## J. Ellis (Nov 5, 2010)

I have to give _kudos_ where they are due. It all makes sense and when you have living proof (such as Tom) it is irrefutable. Topics and discussions such as this make me proud to be a member of the TFO. There is no sniping at each other or trolling, it's a major step up from other forums I've been involved with. 




Madkins007 said:


> Let's build an imaginary bed- it is an air bed that gets longer and wider as you inflate it. Next, put a bunch of fitted sheets on it, the biggest on the bottom, and each one on top being a bit smaller.
> 
> 
> As we inflate the bed, the sheets SHOULD smoothly ride up and slip off, collapsing into a thin heap on top. If we starch the sheets, to simulate dryness, they would still pop off, but form a fluffy pyramid as they did so.



The above quote is one of the most ingenous analogies I have ever heard; getting the point across intelligently and concisely.


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## Balboa (Nov 5, 2010)

Here's a question Tom.... and I think this has been discussed, but I want to be sure.... Is it that the scutes shrink in, or the "cracks" swell up. I've noticed on Rocky that she usually has a raised lip at the cracks, like reverse pyramiding. Maybe the same phenominon, but it really looks more like its a lip around the cracks to me. You can kinda see it in this pic
http://tortoiseforum.org/attachment.php?aid=6464
from my pharaoh thread. 

One thing to note, is that the "cracks" in the bone are at the center, or centerish, of the scutes. They overlap to improve strength, just like when you're laying down flooring on subfloor, you overlap the sheets.... hmm well I dunno, maybe alot of you haven't done that one. lol

As much as I hate to say it.... it seems odd to me that a dead pyramided tort has never been cut open. I think science will suffer in this case, cuz I think Adrienne is going to pull through, but I probably would've been willing to donate her to the cause if she hadn't. I couldn't do it though, someone would be gettin her on ice. Maybe that's the problem.... some other guys poor lost tort has to get cut up, not MINE. 

And I mean no offense to my more experienced brethren who I respect highly... but I'm starting to think the "once its started, its hard to stop pyramiding" is....
RUBBISH
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-I-m-sorry-Pharaoh
OF course it was true when we were keeping our animals INCORRECTLY... What else could you say when you corrected "the problem" and cut out all the protein, and what do you know, she's still pyramiding, gosh darn, must be hard to stop once its started.
Please do correct me on this if I'm wrong, and I just got lucky on Rocky, or it is just cuz she's 6 inches, but has anyone here NOT been able to stop pyramiding once they started keeping the shell hydrated?

Which I tend to agree, a big part of having the high humidity probably is just to keep the shell from drying, not so much for the humidity itself, except that, I've noticed with Rocky being cold blooded, if she moves from a colder place to a hotter place, water condenses on her shell 

So I guess darn, I got nothing on sponginess... sorry Tom.... But the unfolding sheet bit really fits the bill. If the new Scute material is too dead and dry too quick , it will stay creased and pyramiding will result.... and that does seem to tie in a bit... if the new material is too rigid and dry, the carapace won't have the kind of flexibility it probably should have in order to deal with changing internal fluid levels of the body.

dang did someone else already say that and I missed it..... it just occured to me as I was typing it... A dried out shell can't flex... as our body fluid levels change we actually do get a little bigger or a little smaller... the skin stretches. Being mostly stuck in a shell, as the tort hydrates there needs to be some give in the shell to allow room for more water. A tortoise STUCK in a rigid shell won't be able to take in as much water, further exasperating his condition.

Anyways.... COOL THREAD TOM!! you da man


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## kbaker (Nov 6, 2010)

I quickly looked over the thread so sorry if I missed something...

Tom mentioned a mistake I am sure we all made while soaking regularly. I would dry them off before putting them back into their homes. Another mistake I would make because of what others suggested is soaking in shallow water. I think that the recommendation in books is not to go over half way up the shell. I soaked my earlier tortoises often and still got some pyramiding. And it was always more on the higher scutes that never got soaked.

So I think Tom is headed in the right direction.


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## Madkins007 (Nov 6, 2010)

Balboa- I THINK that the raised or thickened growth line is the first early warning of potential pyramiding to come. 

I SUSPECT that the edges of the scutes that are tucked in between each other and that have to slide out to form a new growth ring are dry enough that they do not flatten out as they slide out, making a thick ring. The next time it happens, the new thick ring adds to the last, etc.

I have a mildly pyramided shell at work and have been trying to work up the guts to run it through the band saw- its been there a couple months now. I really want to know the answers, but a.) I really loved Japuta, and b.) since it is only mild pyramiding, I am not sure I would learn what I want to know. I would hate to saw it and not get anything useful from it.

Stopping pyramiding- I don't think anyone has ever said you cannot 'stop' pyramiding, just that once it starts, you cannot erase the previous effects of it. Although, I have heard of some keepers who keep their tortoises in conditions where the shells are polished smooth by the animals crawling over stuff and each other with a slightly gritty substrate. Not sure that these are good conditions and I am not suggesting that sort of treatment.


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## Balboa (Nov 6, 2010)

well that would certainly burst my bubble Mark, lol 
I sincerely hope that is not the case here, but time will tell. There is a definate flattening going on, maybe this next pyramid step is just really big laterally, which I'll take as at least movement in a better direction. It makes me wonder if its is a hyper-critical situation, let that crevice dry out even a little and blammo, damage done.

I totally get your hesitation on using the bandsaw.... that has to be tough. I really don't think I could do it.


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## Tom (Nov 9, 2010)

Balboa, it does take a long time to try to stop pyramiding. Years. Daisy is finally getting smooth growth, but it took two years of "swamp" living to BEGIN to see a difference. This is also very hard to quantify because there are a million variables. How long was it kept dry? How dry? Humid hide Box? How humid? Soaks? For how long? Ambient room humidity? Outdoor humidity? Substrate? Etc...

I got Daisy at 12 weeks old already badly pyramiding. See Pic:






I gave her a humid hide box and soaked her from day one, but saw no change after several months. Next I swapped out the substrate. No Change. After nine months with no change, I went buck wild and covered the top, made the substrate wet, sprayed her and the enclosure all day long, soaked two or three times a day, humidified the whole room, etc... After two years of this "swamp" routine, I'm now seeing some smooth growth. Here's some recent pics:













Now you tell me. Is it stoppable? I went to monumental effort. I took things to an extreme that most people won't. When I say it is hard to stop, I really mean it is really HARD to stop. This is why I come on so strong to newbies with little babies. You can't undo it ever AND its really hard to break that pattern once that pattern is established. The sooner they get into the right conditions, the less damage will be done and the sooner positive results can be seen.


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## Balboa (Nov 9, 2010)

Ummm Tom.... I see tons of smooth growth, many good rings.
Yes, she has "knobs" and they stick out like vertical faces on the smooth growth you've put on her. You've done great by her bud.
Interestingly, yes there is still a bit of slope on the top there, but you can see the drastic improvement made early on, I can SEE where you took over.

I should add to this looking more. Daisy is an amzing study... part of the puzzle is in her.... on some angles smoooooth... on some, I can see why you're frustrated... something in how the scutes grow, certain geometries aren't lining up, so part of the pyramiding continues, others stop abruptly.... hmmm


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## Tom (Nov 9, 2010)

Balboa said:


> Ummm Tom.... I see tons of smooth growth, many good rings.
> Yes, she has "knobs" and they stick out like vertical faces on the smooth growth you've put on her. You've done great by her bud.
> Interestingly, yes there is still a bit of slope on the top there, but you can see the drastic improvement made early on, I can SEE where you took over.
> 
> I should add to this looking more. Daisy is an amzing study... part of the puzzle is in her.... on some angles smoooooth... on some, I can see why you're frustrated... something in how the scutes grow, certain geometries aren't lining up, so part of the pyramiding continues, others stop abruptly.... hmmm





Good observation. The pattern you are seeing there is pretty universal for all sulcatas. Maggie and I sometimes compare notes on Bob and my adults. They seem to grow and pyramid the same way with an "accent" on certain scutes or scute joints.

Interestingly, almost all sulcatas start to smooth out once they reach a certain size, even though conditions haven't changed. This corresponds to the time in the wild when they would start spending more time above ground in the hot desiccating sun. This is why I also think that some species, notably redfoots, are never safely "out of the woods". There is not such a distinct change in the environment for the forrest species between baby and adult and even the adults live in a pretty humid and wet environment. This is in stark contrast to desert species like sulcatas and leopards where the adults live in dry, arid micro-climates while their babies stay hidden in damp, humid micro-niches like burrows, plant root balls, leaf litter and areas of tall elephant grass.


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