# Same ole question - leopard or sulcata



## goReptiles (Jun 21, 2011)

One day, I'd like to own a larger tortoise species. For today, I'm just research.

Tell me everything I need to know about the personalities of one vs the other. I've got the care fairly down, but I'm more interested in personality differences. If anyone has both, that'd be awesome to compare. But, whatever is better than what assistance I've got, now.


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## Tom (Jun 21, 2011)

Sulcatas get very large and tend to be very outgoing and unafraid. They also tend to dig and can get very destructive.

Leopards stay much smaller, have prettier markings and don't dig or get really destructive. The also tend to be shy and uninterested in interaction.

There are exceptions on both sides. I've seen shy sulcatas and I've seen social leopards. Things get more complicated because there are two types of leopards available here in the states. The babcocki are smaller and tend to be much more reclusive, while the pardalis pardalis tend to be much more outgoing and sulcata-like in their personalities, although they still don't try to burrow like a sulcata.


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## goReptiles (Jun 21, 2011)

Of the leopards, which one can outstand cooler temps better? I can't remember. I live in GA, but which is the hardeir of the two? I like the Leopards because of their tendency not to dig, but I love what I've read about the traits of the sulcata.


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## dmarcus (Jun 21, 2011)

I have no clue about Leopard's but I can tell you that my large male is very sweet and he enjoys being around us and has a great personality. He also diggs like Tom said, he has been working on a burrow that about 6 feet down right now. They also will walk over things like plants instead of going around...


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## Tom (Jun 21, 2011)

There's the dilemma. That's why I have both! Seriously though, most of the adult pp that I have seen behave very sulcata-like, and this is a big reason I like them so much. You get all the benefits of both sulcatas and leopards with out the downsides of either.

As far as the cold thing, it seems obvious to me, but it always starts a heated debate around here. The Babcocki that we have here in the states come from the central, tropical area of Africa. Most of them from Tanzania. The pp were imported from South Africa where the climate is much more temperate. It has been pointed out that no one has subjected both subspecies to repeated prolonged cold spells to see which one got sick first. As far as I know this is true. I've certainly never done it. But after all of my years of tortoise experience, I am willing to say that Russian tortoises are more cold hardy than redfooted tortoises and that a tortoise from a temperate area in Africa is going to be more cold tolerant than one from a tropical area.

Now then Whitney. Get ready for your thread to be derailed by a whirlwind of debate and technicalities. When the argument starts by the same three guys, I'll try and take it to a new thread.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Jun 21, 2011)

Tom, I've read the same thing: that leopard tortoises from below the Tropic of Capricorn are more cold-resistant than their tropical conspecifics. I've read they may even go through a short dormancy period during the southern winter, although they don't actually brumate. This is kind of like the difference among subspecies of Greek tortoise; those from colder climates may brumate for a while, but those from warmer parts of the range don't. (This is why it's important for us to know where our torties come from!)

Apropos this thread, though, which is more cold-tolerant? A sulcata tortoise or a temperate zone leopard tortoise? The sulcata is from the Sahel, which is technically within the tropics, just below the Sahara, where it gets hot during the day and cold at night. Like other burrowing tortoises, this is probably one reason sulcatas can dig so well: to create a microclimate with more favorable levels of humidity and temperature. So, based on where they're from and their behavior (leopard tortoises don't dig), I think the temperate zone leopard tortoise is more cold-tolerant than the sulcata.


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## Neal (Jun 21, 2011)

Well, Tom was right about the whirlwind of debate and technicalities, though I don't appreciate being made out as someone who "derails" a thread when I feel wrong information is being shared, I don't excuse myself for being blunt or diplomatic and I won't pretend that I am not responsible for my part for "derailing" a thread. I will try to be as cool headed as possible.

Anyways, this argument really has been beaten to death. Tom does have a lot of experience with leopards, and so do I and other people. Everyone you ask will tell you a different thing, so in the interest of respect for EVERYONE'S OPINION, I will only share mine.

Based on MY experience I have to say that tortoise personality is unique to the tortoise, not the species or sub species. I think the only way you can tell if one or the other has more "personality" is to put the individual tortoises side by side and observe them yourself. A lot of it has to do with how the tortoise was raised and the amount of interaction it receives. Now indian star tortoises are more commonly known to be shy and reclusive, but I have some that will run up to me when they see me and eat right out of my hand (I have posted pictures of this). I don't consider them exceptions to any rules, how can we make rules on personality in tortoises when it's such a subjective thing? 

As far as the cold tolerance thing goes. Tom said it, no one has ever subjected the tortoises that I know of to temperature extremes so who can say conclusivley which subspecies is more tollerant. You can make guesses all you want, but for my purposes that isn't good enough. My babcocki's have been out and active in 50 degree weather, that's about as extreme as it gets here so I really don't need to worry myself about such things. You might consider this though, if one were to say that GPP are more cold tolerant, they would have to say GPB are more heat tolerant which I can't imagine why that doesn't get mentioned as much...Further more, being from a colder climate does not automatically make them more cold tolerant I don't think. They may be more resoursful, hibernating, burrowing, etc...to escape the cold, but I would not automatically assume that the one may survive out in the open when the other type wouldn't.

By the way, the babcocki that have made it to the US are from a variety of different regions, not just the tropical regions. In fact, a lot are believed to come from very cool areas.


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## Laura (Jun 21, 2011)

if you want a adult.. since hatchlings can be heartbreakers... Sulcata's are very plentiful in rescues and can be found easily and usully free.. Leopards are not.


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## Nay (Jun 21, 2011)

Laura, that trows in a different angle now dosen't it??Good point too.
My leo , who I got at around age 8, is just now started to stay out of her shell after around 3 years with me. She used to hiss and hide right away, but now she will just watch when I go in the pen to feed. Won't eat out of my hand or anything like that, but at least I can see her pretty head. 
That's my experience with just my leopard..
Personally reading Maggie's experiences with Bob make me think I do not want to deal with that, but that's just me...
good Luck
Nay


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## SnakeyeZ (Jun 21, 2011)

I don't own either of these tortoises but one day I would love to own a larger tortoise aswell. As much as I love sulcata's I just don't have the space for one. I also live in Manitoba Canada so I don't really think I could provide as much "outdoor" time as it would require so I would be bringing it in all the time and then I would need a suitable sized inside enclosure for it for 6 months of the year (might be easier before they are 80-160lbs). A leopard tortoise would probably fit better for us.

Just something to think about... I know my situation is different than yours. Just think of the potential size and requirements. As stated above by people who keep both might help you make a better decision.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Jun 21, 2011)

Neal said:


> By the way, the babcocki that have made it to the US are from a variety of different regions, not just the tropical regions. In fact, a lot are believed to come from very cool areas.



Some tropical leopard tortoises are still cold-tolerant because they come from high altitude zones.


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## goReptiles (Jun 21, 2011)

As for weather, I just ask as I've heard differences. I'm in Georgia, so the most extreme our weather gets is during the summer with 100+ temps excluding the humidity.

I like that the pardalis pardalis are a larger tortoise with personality... I just like that some of my torts now are very outgoing whereas some of them are shy. I do realize that it's per tortoise per personality, so I'm just looking for generalizations and any experiences.


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## Neal (Jun 21, 2011)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> Some tropical leopard tortoises are still cold-tolerant because they come from high altitude zones.



Good point. Unfortunatley, as has been discussed a lot here, we just don't know where exactly the leopard tortoises in the United States originated (This is where the technicalities come in). 

I shared a story from Dr. Funk a while back. He stated that a friend of his was hiking in East Africa (Kenya, if I remember correctly). They woke up to frost on the ground. When they were making breakfast an adult leopard tortoise walked by with frost on its shell. 



goReptiles said:


> I do realize that it's per tortoise per personality, so I'm just looking for generalizations and any experiences.



I can understand that. Of the tortoises I have seen (not the subspecies as a whole) the babcocki's have been more personable. With that statement though, you do have to consider that I am admitedly biased towards babcocki, so take it for what it's worth.


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## John (Jun 21, 2011)

Hello Whitney, In regards to climate here are some recorded temps throughout the range of both subspecies, hope it helps
these are average mean temps for the year.
Somalia..86
tanzania...78
eastern cape s.a. ..68
zimbabwe...68
ethiopia....68
sudan.......82
western cape s.a..... 66
northern cape s.a. 68
namibia...59
kenya...68
bostwana...72


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## PoisonOrchid (Jun 21, 2011)

I recently got a Leo. She was very shy at first, but today, she actually followed me around(I had food for her). She's sweet. She also seemed to like getting her head rubbed.  
I say Leo.
They aren't destructive as Sullies. And I think they look prettier.
But it depends on each individual tortoise.  Good Luck


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## Neal (Jun 21, 2011)

Tom said:


> As far as the cold thing, it seems obvious to me, but it always starts a heated debate around here. The Babcocki that we have here in the states come from the central, tropical area of Africa. Most of them from Tanzania. The pp were imported from South Africa where the climate is much more temperate. It has been pointed out that no one has subjected both subspecies to repeated prolonged cold spells to see which one got sick first. As far as I know this is true. I've certainly never done it. But after all of my years of tortoise experience, I am willing to say that Russian tortoises are more cold hardy than redfooted tortoises and that a tortoise from a temperate area in Africa is going to be more cold tolerant than one from a tropical area.



Woa..I need to back pedal here. I didn't catch that you changed your argument from GPP being cold hardy to cold tolerant, which I interpret as two different things. Though, I think you still meant they are more cold hardy? If you meant the PREFER colder temperatures than GPB I would agree with that statement 100%.


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## Mao Senpai (Jun 21, 2011)

Well I will based this on the 4 babcoki's I've owned. They each all have their own personalities and in terms of being shy, one may have been shy if say I come around or if I am reaching down but after a minute once it realized who I was and what my purpose was ... it softened right now. My other one... when I pick it up.. doesn't really care what I really do. I can pet her head, brush her shell (had poop stuck a few times) and she is just like yeah yeah put me down. And this other one ! She is a outgoing monster. She will charge at me if she see's me putting food down ! and if I put my finger near her face she would try to take a taste sample  I .. pull away of course hehehe. The other new one I got as of recently I am questionining still on what his/her personality will be like.. it's been kinda acting weird as of late so we'll see.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jun 21, 2011)

removed parts off topic...by Jacqui

I don't like Leopards. I think they are too shy and have no personality. I like Sulcata. Bob is not destructive. He's smashed his pool because I put it in the perimeter that he paces, that was *MY* fault. Not his. He paces that way daily and I stupidly put the pool in his way. I take anything he does and exaggerate it to make a funny story. You can't show me any story I have written about him that shows he's really destructive in any way. Like I said, I take things he's done and exaggerate them to make an entertaining story for you people and if you are going to say that Bob is destructive I guess I will just have to stop writing stories for you. Bob is a great tortoise with much more personality than most tortoises. He is fun to keep and has been very entertaining to me. He makes me laugh and he keeps me company when I am lonely, so don't be saying bad things about an animal that you don't know and have never met. I had a bit of trouble with him when he wasn't set up correctly. But there again that was my fault. He is a big tortoise who needs lots of room and at first he didn't have that room. So don't be talking about somebody you don't really know. I guess I'll stop writing stories for you.

Just me, Jacqui, removing things off topic*.... instead of insulting .... simply ignore ... don't read your threads. Now lets get back on track and answer the question from the OP without putting ... personal opinions on another TFO member.and more I removed..by Jacqui


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## Maggie Cummings (Jun 21, 2011)

I am deleting any off topic that could be argumentative, while trying to keep what should be general information for ALL of us....by Jacqui

I have my own experience that I use in raising tortoises. The only person I admire is my sister. I have lived too long to admire anyone. But I like this forum and I hate it when someone says something bad about another TFO member's opinion on keeping tortoises. NO ONE is wrong we are all just different. I am only defending Tom's right to his opinion, I am not defending his personality his opinions or the way he keeps tortoises, I am simply defending his right to his opinion that's all. .........

I also hate it when someone doesn't know the difference between the Bob in my stories and the real Bob the tortoise.
So to answer the OP if you have the room a Sulcata will keep you entertained and laughing and angry all at the same time.


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## Neal (Jun 21, 2011)

maggie3fan said:


> I don't like Leopards. I think they are too shy and have no personality.



Maggie, would you mind sharing a little bit about your experience and why you feel this way? Besides Tom, I can't recall seeing or hearing anyone say that leopard tortoises are generally shy. I'm genuinely curious, seeing as it's a debate thread and is on topic, I would like to hear reasons behind the opinion.


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## Mao Senpai (Jun 21, 2011)

People.. need to bite their own tongue and take this garbage elsewhere. 

Anyhow, the two tortoise also.... vary greatly in size. I mean a sulcata can get what like 20+ inches? and weight something over 100lbs? While the leopards will be around 12-18 inches? So... the bigger question would be on how much space you have and will they be able to be kept outside without any dangers for most of the year. For me personally I have yet to live in a place with any form of yard so... right now they are mostly indoors but hopefully in the future I can get a house with a yard and bring my leopards out


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## Neal (Jun 21, 2011)

Maggie, thanks. All though I obviously don't agree with the species being shy, I can understand your opinion on them.


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