# Poop, Why sometimes its good to eat!



## bettinge (Aug 20, 2009)

We have all seen here on the forum many times not to let your tort eat poop from dogs, other torts, etc, etc!

I read an interesting article on TortoiseTrust expaining why there are times when its GOOD to feed your tort the poop of another tort! Specifically, feeding poop of a "proven" healthy tort or hatchling, of the same species! This would be fed to a tort that had drugs that killed off the benificial bacteria (intestinal flora)!

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/parasites.html

I admit, this many not be for a rookie tort owner!


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Aug 20, 2009)

Ummm I would never feed a tort poop from another tort! Parasites, parasites, and more parasites! Plus the discharge of high levels of unwanted minerals, etc... It is fine if a tort voluntarily eats their own poop... but never force them to eat their own, and never never never never feed them another torts waste!!!


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## bettinge (Aug 20, 2009)

The article does say to feed from a known healthy (tested) tort! While I may never feel comfortable doing this either, TortoiseTrust is a well respected name when it comes to the care of Tortoises!

While its discusting to us, the article is very informative. As others have said here before, torts seem to eat poop in an effort to build intestinal flora. Eating known good poop or the poop of a hatchling seems to make good sense.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Aug 20, 2009)

I never said the act was unnormal for torts... I just dont think that its something we should actively do. We can never be sure which tort is "healthy"


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## bettinge (Aug 20, 2009)

I agree, it should be up to the professionals. These guys at TortoiseTrust are not rookies by any means. When they document something, my belief is you can take it to the bank.

Really I just thought it was an intresting perspective from people who know what their doing, that is in contrast to what we read here. 

I am not saying I will do, and am not recommending that you do it......its just a different perspective.


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## Maggie Cummings (Aug 20, 2009)

There is a large group of us who don't believe most of what Tortoise Trust teaches about tort keeping. Some of us don't respect them...


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## bettinge (Aug 20, 2009)

I find their information useful, but am interested in the other specific's that you take exception to! I too am learning, and I like to weigh different opinions and practices! I respect your opinion very highly Maggie, as I feel I know you. Please elaborate!


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## tortoisenerd (Aug 20, 2009)

Interesting. I would think that this would be tricky. A tort can test negative once or even more but still have a parasite, just because of the life cycle or it can be missed. Also agree to leave it to a professional.


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## Maggie Cummings (Aug 20, 2009)

bettinge said:


> I find their information useful, but am interested in the other specific's that you take exception to! I too am learning, and I like to weigh different opinions and practices! I respect your opinion very highly Maggie, as I feel I know you. Please elaborate!



I was a member on their list serve and got into a discussion with His Majesty about humidity and Sulcata tortoises. His take was that they come from the desert and humidity was bad for them. My take is modern science has proven that in order to prevent pyramiding they need humidity.They dig 20 foot long burrows in the wild and poop and pee in them creating an ambient humidity that can reach 80%. In the Sudan/Senegal where they come from the humidity right now as I type this is 84%. Yet he says they don't need humidity. He says they don't live in a country with humidity. I proved over and over they live with humidity. Instead of an adult discussion back and forth I was humiliated and embarrassed by the group as a whole. Instead of the discussion being amicable I was insulted because I'm an American. They came out with absolute personal attacks on me. The kind that aren't allowed on our lists/forums. I finally left. 
Also they charge for their Tortoise Trust course that teaches what anyone can learn here for free. I think that them charging for what we give away is ridiculous. So what I am telling you is my experience and my opinion. There are others who feel the same way I do. Then to add insult to injury the owner of the Gopherus list was bumping uglies with His Majesty at the time so he joined that group and drove me out of it also.
I know there will be people who won't like what I have just said, but it is the truth and it was my personal experience. I believe that that I was treated very badly and I know of other Americans who have said the same thing about howthey were treated by the TT list as a whole.


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## dmmj (Aug 20, 2009)

While I can see the benefits of them eating their own poop (even though it is disgusting to me), I could not see myself feeding them another torts poop of the same species, even from a "clean" tort. Not knocking anyone just would not do it myself.

" Bumping uglies" ? LOL I thought I was the only one using that term anymore.


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## Madkins007 (Aug 21, 2009)

Just out of curiosity, how will you prevent them eating each others droppings in a shared habitat? When they are milling about in their habitats, indoors or out, and come across some droppings- if they want it, they will eat it.

I try to remove any droppings I find- but honestly, I rarely find any before they do.

This is a natural behavior (called cacophagy) in lots of animals, especially herbivores. It has a lot of proven health benefits (minerals, healthy bacteria and intestinal flora, etc.), and seems to be a strong natural instinct- to the point that they will eat poop they really shouldn't- like that of a typical dog. (This is not really a Tortoise Trust issue, it has been documented for decades by many people.)

I certainly am NOT saying that we should be offering poop to our torts, but I will point out that one of the best historic treatments for diarrhea in torts is the droppings of a healthy tortoise. 

As far as 'healthy' goes... my torts are well-quarantined when obtained and new additions come from a trusted source (Redfoot NERD in this case). I also do a quick check on the feces when I find them. I am not real worried about most parasites, etc. in the herd.


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## Crazy1 (Aug 21, 2009)

*To whom it may concern:* Personal comments made regarding Tortoise Trust (TT) are not the feelings or comments of this forum. 

Maggie I understand you had difficulty with the TT but please be careful with comments in detail made regarding them on the forum. I realize you were responding to bettinge comment but it would be better to go into it in depth in private. Making comments like Ã¢â‚¬Å“His MajestyÃ¢â‚¬Â Ã¢â‚¬Å“I was insulted because I'm an American.Ã¢â‚¬Â Are not in the flavor of our forum. We would not like it if they were doing it on their site to us. As you yourself said it's Ã¢â‚¬Å“InsultingÃ¢â‚¬Â.


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## Madkins007 (Aug 21, 2009)

maggie3fan said:


> I was a member on their list serve and got into a discussion with His Majesty about humidity and Sulcata tortoises. His take was that they come from the desert and humidity was bad for them. My take is modern science has proven that in order to prevent pyramiding they need humidity.They dig 20 foot long burrows in the wild and poop and pee in them creating an ambient humidity that can reach 80%. In the Sudan/Senegal where they come from the humidity right now as I type this is 84%. Yet he says they don't need humidity. He says they don't live in a country with humidity. I proved over and over they live with humidity. Instead of an adult discussion back and forth I was humiliated and embarrassed by the group as a whole. Instead of the discussion being amicable I was insulted because I'm an American. They came out with absolute personal attacks on me. The kind that aren't allowed on our lists/forums. I finally left.
> Also they charge for their Tortoise Trust course that teaches what anyone can learn here for free. I think that them charging for what we give away is ridiculous. So what I am telling you is my experience and my opinion. There are others who feel the same way I do. Then to add insult to injury the owner of the Gopherus list was bumping uglies with His Majesty at the time so he joined that group and drove me out of it also.
> I know there will be people who won't like what I have just said, but it is the truth and it was my personal experience. I believe that that I was treated very badly and I know of other Americans who have said the same thing about howthey were treated by the TT list as a whole.



My main experiences with the TT are the site, a couple books, and the class.

I tried the list for a while, but did not like the tone- but it really was not a lot worse than you find on Kingsnake, etc. Even we here have been accused of being mean to newcomers at times. Having said that, I rarely look at their list.

Their site and books are good- not perfect, but good. Certainly better than many sites that base so much of their info on really old information. Andy Highfield (aka 'His Majesty') does seem to need to have a better understanding of the importance of humidity to prevent pyramiding, but he is chock full of lots of other good info.

The class was a birthday present and I enjoyed most of it. I can't say that I learned anything hard and sure that I did not already know other than a few things about the Mediterranean tortoises, which are their big focus. My only real complaint about the class is that the whole thing could be formatted better for the cost. I think most people's money would be better spent on a good book (like Mike Pingleton's "The Redfoot Manual", if I can sneak in a plug!)

Without trying to defend what they did to you and some others I know of, I will point out that finding a site with a good forum, good people, and solid info is tough. You can go to the sites of most of the 'gurus' and find something to disagree with, sometimes very strongly disagree with. 

I try hard to find what I can take away from each site, and not judge the whole site or program on some issues I disagree with... Note I said I TRY. Being human, it is really easy for me to throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

In general- I'd rather hang out here.


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## Maggie Cummings (Aug 21, 2009)

Yes Robyn, I should have thought about that. I related MY experience, that of Maggie Cummings, and I in no way represent the Tortoise Forum in the telling of my experience.


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## bettinge (Aug 21, 2009)

What I like about threads like this as it creates a bit of debate. It seems to be such an off the wall idea to me....feeding Poop! But before I became a member here, most of my knowledge came from TT, I have had DVD's shipped from England to help me learn more. 

I have been very stingy on this forum about who I give a reputation to. Its not a coindence that Maggie and Madkins007 are 2 of maybe 4 people I have given a positive reputation to. Its also not a coindence that its Maggie and Madkins007 that have offerered the most to my thread, and I really learn the most because they are opposing opinions based on fact. That to me folks "Is a Forum". And while I have said it before, I will say it again.....thats why I'm here and not elsewhere! This forum has expertise and facts suported many times with supporting documentation (links)!


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