# Housing Babies Together?



## SoCalGreek (Jan 26, 2021)

Hi All!
I recently joined a Facebook group related to Greek tortoises (I have one 10 year old Mesopotamian Greek). I thought it would be interesting/fun to see others’ Greeks.

Earlier today, I saw a post regarding two single digit months old Greeks who are housed together and one is growing faster than the other by enough that it’s noticeable. The owner is concerned about why this could be happening (ie is something wrong with the littler one). I responded that they are not social creatures and that they shouldn’t be housed together (as I remember reading that repeatedly on here and have read on here that one could be dominant over the other and eating more than it’s fair share).

Apparently, I’m very wrong and this person’s research shows that torts love being together and prefer to be around each other. I’m relatively new to the tort world and have been wondering if I misread something and responded incorrectly. Can someone please let me know?

For clarification, my tort is my one and only and I have zero plans to get more at any time.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jan 26, 2021)

I think you answered your own question.
One is likely growing faster because of dominance.
While no two tortoises grow at the exact same rate. Two kept the same way. The same age should be similar.
Most times very tiny tortoises don't show any aggression. But subtle signs soon start. And some of it looks like they like each other to us humans.
It can become physical damage including death, or emotional, stressful damage. Sometimes also ending in death.


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## Tom (Jan 26, 2021)

SoCalGreek said:


> Hi All!
> I recently joined a Facebook group related to Greek tortoises (I have one 10 year old Mesopotamian Greek). I thought it would be interesting/fun to see others’ Greeks.
> 
> Earlier today, I saw a post regarding two single digit months old Greeks who are housed together and one is growing faster than the other by enough that it’s noticeable. The owner is concerned about why this could be happening (ie is something wrong with the littler one). I responded that they are not social creatures and that they shouldn’t be housed together (as I remember reading that repeatedly on here and have read on here that one could be dominant over the other and eating more than it’s fair share).
> ...


O. M. G.

I'm usually very patient and keep answering the same questions over and over again, year after year, but I'm getting really sick of this one. It just won't die!

You are correct. The FB group is wrong, and totally off their rocker, as usual. The evidence is right there in front of this person's face and they are going out of their way to look past the obvious evidence and find some other explanation that suits their emotions better. 

If you go back there and argue with them in an effort to save that little tortoise's life, they will surely ban you. And now you've seen first hand why we tell people to avoid the FB tortoise groups. Absolute insanity eclipsed only by their stupidity.

Ugh... I give up. For tonight anyway.


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## wellington (Jan 26, 2021)

I usually tell those FB people to look on this forum for all the reasons they are wrong. I tell them they don't have to join to read the info. I also tell them that all the research/experiments and current correct info is on this forum and only this forum. Do what you can to get it thru their thick skulls to help save the tortoise cuz it likely will die.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jan 26, 2021)

Tom said:


> O. M. G.
> 
> I'm usually very patient and keep answering the same questions over and over again, year after year, but I'm getting really sick of this one. It just won't die!
> 
> ...


Leave for a month and rest your brain.
It helped me.
A FB Chameleon group attacked me over some stupid crap when I posted my sick Chameleon. 
Over plastic plants.
Veiled Chameleons DO eat plants.
But that one is a Panther. They do not.


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## Tom (Jan 26, 2021)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Leave for a month and rest your brain.
> It helped me.
> A FB Chameleon group attacked me over some stupid crap when I posted my sick Chameleon.
> Over plastic plants.
> ...


I went through that one too. My veiled once took a bite of the ficus tree in his cage. Worrying about the toxicity of ficus, I swapped it out for other stuff. Never had that problem with any other cham species.


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## SoCalGreek (Jan 26, 2021)

Tom said:


> O. M. G.
> 
> I'm usually very patient and keep answering the same questions over and over again, year after year, but I'm getting really sick of this one. It just won't die!
> 
> ...


Thank you for confirming! I’ve been on that fb group for less than a week and am honestly shocked at the number of very, very wrong things people say. I actually think I may just unfollow them. It’s quite frustrating and disappointing to see.


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## Jan A (Jan 26, 2021)

SoCalGreek said:


> Thank you for confirming! I’ve been on that fb group for less than a week and am honestly shocked at the number of very, very wrong things people say. I actually think I may just unfollow them. It’s quite frustrating and disappointing to see.


There are a lot of reasons to ignore FB. Bad tort advice works for me. Welcome to TF where there are great, knowledgeable tort breeders & owners.

GooD luck!!


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## ZEROPILOT (Jan 27, 2021)

Jan A said:


> There are a lot of reasons to ignore FB. Bad tort advice works for me. Welcome to TF where there are great, knowledgeable tort breeders & owners.
> 
> GooD luck!!


I don't own this group.
I have no financial interests in it, either.
So when I suggest that this forum is the ONLY resource you need for correct and up to the moment information (plus making some friends along the way) for your tortoise(s), I mean that.
Boy, I wish it was around when I was guessing what to do all those years ago.
I remember reading books that said things like "tortoises get all of their water in their food".
Those FB groups seem to be mostly a collection of outcasts with 1980s info. Or people that thinks that what is easy or convenient for them is fine for the poor animal.
Ignorance is bliss as they say.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jan 27, 2021)

Tom said:


> I went through that one too. My veiled once took a bite of the ficus tree in his cage. Worrying about the toxicity of ficus, I swapped it out for other stuff. Never had that problem with any other cham species.


I've got Pothos vines in my Veileds cages.
They sure do eat it.


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## Toddrickfl1 (Jan 27, 2021)

Do yourself a favor and avoid those FB groups like you'd avoid someone with Covid.


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## Yossarian (Jan 27, 2021)

I deleted facebook a few years back, honestly never missed it at all. The two tortoise thing is so common it has started getting me irritated every time I see it. I spend a bit of time on Reddit and every post some days is "look how cute my two baby tortoises are eating [something innapropriate]". . . Any attempts to educate people on reddit gets downvotes almost immediately. To those people, 'research' means seeking out confirmation, and unfortunately there is always confirmation for bullshit on the internet, usually involving facebook.


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## gurgleblaster (Jan 27, 2021)

Tom said:


> O. M. G.
> 
> I'm usually very patient and keep answering the same questions over and over again, year after year, but I'm getting really sick of this one. It just won't die!
> 
> ...


Tom don't give up. You have helped me immensely with your posts. I feel like being on this forum a lot of us are going to make mistakes but we are here because we love our animals and our passion for good husbandry. Keep fighting the good fight. There will always be hard headed people but those who truly care about good husbandry are often more than willing to listen and correct said mistakes.


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## Tom (Jan 27, 2021)

gurgleblaster said:


> Tom don't give up. You have helped me immensely with your posts. I feel like being on this forum a lot of us are going to make mistakes but we are here because we love our animals and our passion for good husbandry. Keep fighting the good fight. There will always be hard headed people but those who truly care about good husbandry are often more than willing to listen and correct said mistakes.


Thank you.


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## Tom (Jan 27, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I deleted facebook a few years back, honestly never missed it at all. The two tortoise thing is so common it has started getting me irritated every time I see it. I spend a bit of time on Reddit and every post some days is "look how cute my two baby tortoises are eating [something innapropriate]". . . Any attempts to educate people on reddit gets downvotes almost immediately. To those people, 'research' means seeking out confirmation, and unfortunately there is always confirmation for bullshit on the internet, usually involving facebook.


So true. The people who are looking to be told what they want to hear are the ones who leave in a huff. I usually get a thank you from the ones that are truly looking to learn new and better info, even when they are understandably skeptical at first due to all the conflicting info out there.


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## Mrs.Jennifer (Jan 27, 2021)

Tom said:


> So true. The people who are looking to be told what they want to hear are the ones who leave in a huff. I usually get a thank you from the ones that are truly looking to learn new and better info, even when they are understandably skeptical at first due to all the conflicting info out there.


In my family we have a term for people who ask a question only because they want affirmation for their decision/belief that is wrong. We call them "askholes."


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## Tom (Jan 27, 2021)

Mrs.Jennifer said:


> In my family we have a term for people who ask a question only because they want affirmation for their decision/belief that is wrong. We call them "askholes."


Mrs. Jennifer? In the most platonic way possible: I LOVE you man!


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## Mrs.Jennifer (Jan 27, 2021)

Tom said:


> Mrs. Jennifer? In the most platonic way possible: I LOVE you man!


Right back atcha!?


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## casstom702 (Jun 22, 2021)

No, it's not true that you can't keep tortoises in pairs or groups. 
Source: Michael Tuma, PhD

Here's the thing though: it's safer if they grow up together, you need a LOT more room (in my experience, two torts need at least four times the amount of space as one tort), torts have personalities, and often these personalities clash (for example, tort A and tort B may get along great, tort B and tort C may also get along great, put the three of them together and they may get along great... or try to kill each other). The reason why everyone is always so against keeping them in pairs and groups is 1) because they can live alone just fine, 2) need enough space that they can have separate "territories" and aren't forced to socialize constantly because of lack of living space, 3) it's a crapshoot whether or not two torts will be friendly or constantly attack each other, oh and 4) torts that seem like the best of buddies may start hurting each other during mating season. I have a large property and eight torts. Two always live alone, two always live together, and the other four consist of three females and a male. The females live together most of the time and I pair them with the male one at a time during mating season. And before any of them lived together, they'd have a month or two of supervised visits so I felt confidant that they got along. It's a lot of work and entirely unnecessary if you have the facilities to house them separately. 

You'll learn that torts are very complex creatures; therefore, there are rarely absolutes in regard to their care and husbandry (besides things like absolutely never throw your tort in your swimming pool nor feed them only iceberg lettuce, let's not be smart @$$es now).


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## casstom702 (Jun 22, 2021)

Mrs.Jennifer said:


> In my family we have a term for people who ask a question only because they want affirmation for their decision/belief that is wrong. We call them "askholes."


What does your family call people who have formed an opinion and then refuse to listen to, consider, or contemplate any alternative views, contradicting theories, or dissenting research?


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## casstom702 (Jun 22, 2021)

Tom said:


> I went through that one too. My veiled once took a bite of the ficus tree in his cage. Worrying about the toxicity of ficus, I swapped it out for other stuff. Never had that problem with any other cham species.


I'm pretty sure knowledge is learning from others' mistakes (i.e. you can be knowledgeable about a topic without having experience) and wisdom is learning from your own mistakes.


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## Tom (Jun 22, 2021)

casstom702 said:


> I'm pretty sure knowledge is learning from others' mistakes (i.e. you can be knowledgeable about a topic without having experience) and wisdom is learning from your own mistakes.


Want to argue about it?


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## Tom (Jun 22, 2021)

casstom702 said:


> No, it's not true that you can't keep tortoises in pairs or groups.
> Source: Michael Tuma, PhD
> 
> Here's the thing though: it's safer if they grow up together, you need a LOT more room (in my experience, two torts need at least four times the amount of space as one tort), torts have personalities, and often these personalities clash (for example, tort A and tort B may get along great, tort B and tort C may also get along great, put the three of them together and they may get along great... or try to kill each other). The reason why everyone is always so against keeping them in pairs and groups is 1) because they can live alone just fine, 2) need enough space that they can have separate "territories" and aren't forced to socialize constantly because of lack of living space, 3) it's a crapshoot whether or not two torts will be friendly or constantly attack each other, oh and 4) torts that seem like the best of buddies may start hurting each other during mating season. I have a large property and eight torts. Two always live alone, two always live together, and the other four consist of three females and a male. The females live together most of the time and I pair them with the male one at a time during mating season. And before any of them lived together, they'd have a month or two of supervised visits so I felt confidant that they got along. It's a lot of work and entirely unnecessary if you have the facilities to house them separately.
> ...


No one here says they can't be kept in groups. Pairs are the problem. And they are a problem whether you realize it or not. Groups of juveniles usually get along fine, and that happens to be my preferred way to raise the species that I work with.

Before you come back with a saucy retort, please go back and read at least some of the last decade of arguing about this topic. I'm not wasting hours of my time with a new member that joins and then wants to school the veterans here. I've kept 100s of tortoises, started 1000s of babies. Your experience sounds lovely, but there are people in the world that know more than you.


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## Mrs.Jennifer (Jun 22, 2021)

I think you missed my point. Questions should be asked because one is truly seeking more knowledge—not to be validated. Asking questions should show a desire to be “coachable.”


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## ZEROPILOT (Jun 22, 2021)

I only keep Redfoot.
Most will agree that RF may just be the calmest and most tolerant of the tortoises as far as bullying intruders.
To make that even "better", I only keep females and sub adult males. So the risk of territorial issues are cut down yet again.
BUT, I've got to tell you that no matter how much space....And I have outdoors enclosures....Two of even Redfoot females ends in 24/7 issues about 90% of the time.
So, it's not too bad EVERY TIME.
But so often that I'm not trying it again. And for the benefit of others, I will never reccomend trying it.
30 years ago I kept a pair of adult Redfoot in an all too small 200 sf outdoors enclosure and I thought that their behavior was 100% natural. And a lot of the now ancient information seemed to confirm that at the time. Mostly library books. And written by doctors and zoos usually.
Now I'm horrified and embarrassed by it. But I was doing everything as best as I could with the information I had.
My observations cover about 35 years of trial and error hands on experience.
Ad that to the experience of our other members and the facts seem pretty solid. And may equal a few thousand years of combined experience.
However, NO TWO of us have the exact same location, availability to build giant enclosures or have had the exact same animals. So it's true that some small variations of exceptions to this rule may exist.
But I hope you can see how mentioning that is horribly ill advised. Since even then it is at best stressful and unnatural for them and never 100% without issue.
It's simply fact.
And maybe an inconvenient one that tortoise pairs are a horrible idea.
We must always place our conveniences and our wants below what is best for our animals the moment we discover that what we are doing is wrong. And not feel guilty or get argumentative about being corrected.
Sometimes we find out that most of what we thought we knew or that most of the equipment we spent hundred$ on are pure garbage. Or even that a trusted longterm mentor is totally off base...
Now we as tortoise keepers have this great wealth of information. It's up to the minute and ever growing and changing.
What a waste it would be to not take advantage of this.


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## Jan A (Jun 22, 2021)

Mrs.Jennifer said:


> I think you missed my point. Questions should be asked because one is truly seeking more knowledge—not to be validated. Asking questions should show a desire to be “coachable.”


We also used to call questions asked for validation purposes "three legged dog" questions. Since it was night school & because most of us had day jobs, we groaned a lot. 

Your view is always the same if you're not the lead dog even when you think you"re the lead dog, IMHAO.


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