# Do tortoise brains grow in size?



## BillDee (Dec 3, 2014)

I can't find any information about the growth of tortoise brains.
I'm particularly interested in sulcatas.

Since they grow to be huge, and ours has grown from being held in the palm of your hand to 12 inches long and 50 pounds, with her head growing proportionally, I was wondering if her brain is also growing and getting bigger.
My guess is that if it is, her intelligence will not increase.

And I was wondering how big her brain is and how big will it get, too. (peanut, almond, walnut, etc.)

I was also wondering about her memory and intellect.

She seems to have a decent memory for locations. (like where she sleeps, and where she got out once where she tried again and again but eventually gave up)

Often it seems that it takes some amount of time, sometimes a "minute" or so, for her brain to "kick in", like noticing that we are preparing her food. (based on sight and probably hearing to a degree)

She seems "affectionate" at times (like laying pressed up against your leg), and clearly recognizes some people.

Thanks for any info. (professional and non)


----------



## Yvonne G (Dec 3, 2014)

I would imagine it would have to. Otherwise, as an adult over 100lbs, you'd have this tiny little pea rolling around inside this huge head. 

I don't have any scientific knowledge, but I'm guessing that tortoises don't actually have 'knowledge.' What they have is instinct and mapping.


----------



## Tom (Dec 3, 2014)

I have never heard of any scientific studies addressing much of what you are asking here, but I agree with Yvonne. The brain of a 250 pound (113,399 gram) sulcata simply must be larger and heavier than the brain of a 35 gram hatchling. I have never cut out a brain and weighed it, but this makes sense to me. I, however, would not necessarily equate a larger brain in a bigger animal with increased intelligence.

Hearing in tortoise is questionable and studies suggest that they don't hear at all or very well. I think the phenomenon you are noticing about her brain taking a minute to kick in regarding food has more to do with olfactory sense than sight or hearing. Takes "a minute" for scent particles to reach her.

As far as the "affection" goes. That is most likely an animal instinctively satisfying its basic needs for warmth and some sort of shelter or cover vs. just sitting out in the open.

They most certainly do recognize individuals when they have a direct positive association with them, like the often cited "food god or goddess" we mention here on this site, and they do recognize and reuse their favorite sunning, shading, drinking and sleeping areas, so there is apparently _some _cognitive and or memory ability, but none of my tortoises over the years have struck me as genius problem solvers. Quite the opposite really.


----------



## N2TORTS (Dec 3, 2014)

Armed with an understanding of evolution, you can look at the world in a new way – and work out how animal bodies and behaviors have given them a survival edge over their competitors. An understanding of evolution is fundamental to understanding brain science – and indeed all biological sciences.
Over the past several hundred years, there have been two, perhaps three fundamental upheavals in human thought.
Firstly, The Copernican Revolution - that far from being the center of the universe, the earth is simply one of several planets orbiting our sun.
Secondly, The Darwinian Revolution - that by the astounding process of evolution, every living thing on the planet has evolved into the huge variety of colors, shapes, sizes and behaviors we see today.
(One could argue that understanding DNA was the third revolution, and in the future understanding
Our brain cells, brain molecules, neurotransmitters and synapses are almost identical in all animals – so the brains of insects, fish, reptiles, birds and mammals are all made from the same building blocks.Again evolution can explain the amount of brain devoted to a particular task.
Crocodiles have huge olfactory bulbs, the area of the brain that deals with smell. In contract, humans have vast areas of the brain devoted to vision.
Fish and amphibians have well defined brains – albeit small ones in relation to their body size. Reptiles and bird brains become ever more complex with areas devoted to specific senses, for example vision and smell.
Mammals have a vast variety of brain shapes and sizes. The biggest brain on our planet belongs to the blue whale – weighing in at 6kg, compared to the 1.4 kg brain of a human.
Does size matter?
Interestingly, size isn’t everything – and provides us with a bit of a puzzle.
The North American ruby-throated hummingbird has a brain weighing less than a gram, where as a blue whale has a 6kg brain. Yet both show a marvelous variety of behaviors. Both sing, defend territories, attract mates, raise young and migrate seasonally for long distances. The tiny-brained hummingbird also has an elaborate courtship dance, builds nests and solves some interesting pattern-recognition problems in finding flowers.
An informative link on Brain science….
http://www.brainmuseum.org/Evolution/index.html


----------



## Dizisdalife (Dec 3, 2014)

Hi BillDee. Welcome to the forum. You pose some questions that many of us keepers have asked ourselves, but really don't have an answer to. At times I think my sulcata is learning as he gets older (he is almost 5 years). Then he will do something to destroy that thought. Like Tom stated, the do have some capacity for learned behavior and certainly, or so it seems to me, they can remember some things. Maggie has told a story about her sulcata remembering to get into the cart after not using it for two years. I have tried for the last year to train my sulcata to keep his feet out of his food tray. I can hear Tom laughing in the background. I could claim minor sucess, but I would just be fooling myself. When I sit with him he will put his "elbows" only in the tray, or, my favorite is he placed his gular on the edge of the tray so that it tilts all the food toward his mouth. As soon as I move away his feet are going into that tray.
I did look up this older thread for you to read.http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/intelligence.25714/


----------



## Yellow Turtle01 (Dec 3, 2014)

This is an interesting thread! And I'm probably not intelligent enough to add anything  so you guy's answers are awesome


----------



## dmmj (Dec 3, 2014)

Yes the brain grows as the tortoise grows, like any other organ in the body. But the brain to body ratio stays the same, so the brain does grow but the tortoise doesn't get super smart. So no tortoise overlords to rule ove us...... yet.


----------



## J.P. (Dec 9, 2014)

our torts have it all figured out....they have used their amazing cuteness to convince us to provide them with warmth, food, water, cozy enclosures, protection from predators.... and sometimes, humans even provide them their mate...


----------



## Kenno (Dec 10, 2014)

The oldest CDT here is clearly the smartest one. He finds ways to get onto the porch and into the garden. He is first to the water and food dishes, and he intimidates the other two by pushing his face into theirs until they pull into their shell. He tolerates no head bobbing!


----------



## Moozillion (Dec 10, 2014)

J.P. said:


> our torts have it all figured out....they have used their amazing cuteness to convince us to provide them with warmth, food, water, cozy enclosures, protection from predators.... and sometimes, humans even provide them their mate...


You are SO RIGHT!!!


----------



## Prairie Mom (Dec 10, 2014)

BillDee said:


> She seems "affectionate" at times (like laying pressed up against your leg), and clearly recognizes some people.



I can't even pretend to be an experienced tortoise keeper, but my gut and my own observations tell me there is more going on inside those heads than I had previously thought. I think often we, humans, are too quick to judge and dismiss.

I DO believe tortoises are capable of affection, beyond just seeking bodily warmth and shelter, one just has to look at photos of @ALDABRAMAN 's giant tortoises gettin' down right snuggly with his wife! http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/does-your-tortoise-like-kisses-too.87949/page-2 -he posted some amazing photos in this thread. Part of being affectionate, is being willing to ACCEPT affection and I have seen this time and time again as my little sulcata stretches out her neck and chin in a way that encourages more light scratches and pets from my devoted children.

Also, my children have rarely fed my tortoise. I am her "food Goddess", but it is very clear that my tortoise prefers certain members of my household and has her "favorites" over other people in my family.

p.s. Thanks for posting that link @Dizisdalife ! I thought that was a really interesting thread to read.


----------



## ALDABRAMAN (Dec 10, 2014)

Prairie Mom said:


> @ALDABRAMAN '
> .



~ Another giant tortoise keeper, Galapagos Breeder, just sent me a study on tortoise interaction and responding to human affection and stimulation. I will try and post it on here for others to read and share!


----------



## Prairie Mom (Dec 10, 2014)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> ~ Another giant tortoise keeper, Galapagos Breeder, just sent me a study on tortoise interaction and responding to human affection and stimulation. I will try and post it on here for others to read and share!
> 
> View attachment 109322


I am VERY interested in the study and look forward to reading it! Thanks, Aldabraman!


----------



## Dizisdalife (Dec 10, 2014)

Prairie Mom said:


> I am VERY interested in the study and look forward to reading it! Thanks, Aldabraman!


Me too. Please post it.


----------



## ALDABRAMAN (Dec 10, 2014)

Prairie Mom said:


> I am VERY interested in the study and look forward to reading it! Thanks, Aldabraman!



~ My pleasure, I will try to post it!


----------



## ALDABRAMAN (Dec 10, 2014)

Dizisdalife said:


> Me too.



~ OK, I e-mailed the sender for permission to post on TFO!


----------



## Moozillion (Dec 10, 2014)

Amazing photos!!!


----------

