# Tortoise Mythbusters!



## Madkins007 (Sep 4, 2010)

The idea for this thread is to present 'tortoise myths' to be either confirmed or busted- understanding that some things may be true for some species, but a myth for others.

Examples:
"Tortoises cannot swim"
PARTIALLY BUSTED. Red- and Yellow-foot tortoises have been seen and photographed swimming in their natural habitat. Probably the similarly built Hinge-back can as well. (Vinke- "South American Tortoises", et al)

Are there documented examples of other species swimming, or proof they cannot?


"Tortoises do not make noises" 
BUSTED, although admittedly, this is believed more by the general public than anyone who keeps tortoises, especially male 'teenaged torts'.


Any you want to share, or anything you want busted or confirmed??


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## tortoisenerd (Sep 4, 2010)

Tortoises are boring-BUSTED-They are active and exciting to watch. Our friends that come over are shocked with how interesting our tort is. A properly kept by today's standards captive tort is very different from how they used to be kept (not warm enough, bad diet, etc). Many may have a picture in their minds of an improperly kept inactive tort, or just a misconception as tortoises are always thought of as slow.

very cool thread!


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## Tom (Sep 4, 2010)

tortoisenerd said:


> Tortoises are boring-BUSTED-They are active and exciting to watch. Our friends that come over are shocked with how interesting our tort is. A properly kept by today's standards captive tort is very different from how they used to be kept (not warm enough, bad diet, etc). Many may have a picture in their minds of an improperly kept inactive tort, or just a misconception as tortoises are always thought of as slow.
> 
> very cool thread!



You are definitely right about this one! Every one who sees my sulcatas running around their yard, can't believe that a tortoise can be that active, fast and friendly.

For the swimming myth, Galapagos can swim. That's how Lonesome George and a bunch of other tortoises from the Southern portion of the Galapagos range went a shore on the Northern part of the Islands. They were thrown overboard from a departing ship and a bunch of them swam ashore. I've been told that sulcatas can swim too, but I've never tested that. "Daisy, come over here..." I'll get back to you with pics, one way or the other.


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## terryo (Sep 4, 2010)

What about this one. If given a large yard to roam in and many editable options, will a tortoise choose a beneficial plant over one that can be potential harmful. I noticed that in my Cherry Head's enclosure, a small ivy plant is growing near the waterfall. Also climbing up the Rose of Sharon Tree is a Morning Glory. They are both established plants that I didn't notice, as it's getting a bit over grown in there. He has not touched these plants, but has eaten every Pansy, dandelion, and any fallen fruit or flower he could find. So, given enough options will a Tortoise choose the right plant, as I'm sure they do in the wild.


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## Tom (Sep 4, 2010)

terryo said:


> What about this one. If given a large yard to roam in and many editable options, will a tortoise choose a beneficial plant over one that can be potential harmful. I noticed that in my Cherry Head's enclosure, a small ivy plant is growing near the waterfall. Also climbing up the Rose of Sharon Tree is a Morning Glory. They are both established plants that I didn't notice, as it's getting a bit over grown in there. He has not touched these plants, but has eaten every Pansy, dandelion, and any fallen fruit or flower he could find. So, given enough options will a Tortoise choose the right plant, as I'm sure they do in the wild.



Busted! I've watched mine eat bad stuff. I actually pulled a piece of oleander out of Scooter's mouth once. My neighbor had trimmed his bush on the other side of the wall and a leaf blew over. I saw him going for it in the nick of time.

They've eaten other bad stuff too like cigarette butts, a mylar Doritos bag, oxalis, etc...


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## Jacqui (Sep 4, 2010)

Tom said:


> terryo said:
> 
> 
> > What about this one. If given a large yard to roam in and many editable options, will a tortoise choose a beneficial plant over one that can be potential harmful. I noticed that in my Cherry Head's enclosure, a small ivy plant is growing near the waterfall. Also climbing up the Rose of Sharon Tree is a Morning Glory. They are both established plants that I didn't notice, as it's getting a bit over grown in there. He has not touched these plants, but has eaten every Pansy, dandelion, and any fallen fruit or flower he could find. So, given enough options will a Tortoise choose the right plant, as I'm sure they do in the wild.
> ...



But with plants that they eat are they really bad for them? Or are they plants that we BELIEVE would be bad for them? So many plants for example get put on the "bad" list because another animal may be harmed by them or if you eat a lot of that plant or over a long time what is in the plant can build up inside you, ect.., Think how many plants are listed as bad, but we see being used in enclosures everyday. How many are actually tested on tortoises? (and which tortoise species would you use for test subjects since different ones seem to have different food consumption abilities)



Madkins007 said:


> Examples:
> "Tortoises cannot swim"
> PARTIALLY BUSTED. Red- and Yellow-foot tortoises have been seen and photographed swimming in their natural habitat. Probably the similarly built Hinge-back can as well. (Vinke- "South American Tortoises", et al)
> 
> Are there documented examples of other species swimming, or proof they cannot?



Hingebacks can swim.


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## terryo (Sep 4, 2010)

What about out in the wild? There must be plants that they come across that aren't good for them. Do they just skip over them and look for something better? I'm saying if they are in a large enclosure with lots of options, I wonder if they would eat a bad plant.
All my boxies swim.....I've seen that many times.
Pio sunk to the bottom when I first put him outside and didn't realize the pond was too deep. He floundered around at the bottom for a bit before I got him out. I didn't give him the change to try again, so I don't know if he can swim or not.


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## Kristina (Sep 4, 2010)

Jacqui said:


> Hingebacks can swim.



I concur and add - Hingebacks LOVE to swim!


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## movealongmosey (Sep 4, 2010)

Though I have seen pictures of yellowfoots and redfoots swimming, usually the pictures are of large wild tortoises. And I wonder if they can actually swim, or if their legs big enough to touch the river bottom, and make us think they're swimming...
Just a thought, feel free to prove me otherwise


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## Yvonne G (Sep 4, 2010)

movealongmosey said:


> Though I have seen pictures of yellowfoots and redfoots swimming, usually the pictures are of large wild tortoises. And I wonder if they can actually swim, or if their legs big enough to touch the river bottom, and make us think they're swimming...
> Just a thought, feel free to prove me otherwise



I think the word "swim" is a misnomer when used in this instance. I think that some tortoises naturally float. And as they're floating, they move their legs as if walking, causing them to "motate." Leopards can swim too.


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## Tom (Sep 4, 2010)

terryo said:


> What about out in the wild? There must be plants that they come across that aren't good for them. Do they just skip over them and look for something better? I'm saying if they are in a large enclosure with lots of options, I wonder if they would eat a bad plant.
> All my boxies swim.....I've seen that many times.
> Pio sunk to the bottom when I first put him outside and didn't realize the pond was too deep. He floundered around at the bottom for a bit before I got him out. I didn't give him the change to try again, so I don't know if he can swim or not.



They must skip them in the wild, but mine ate the oleander in my very large grassy backyard. He'd been grazing on weeds and grass and could have continued, but upon discovering and sniffing the oleander, decided to eat it.


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## Az tortoise compound (Sep 4, 2010)

I have seen aldabran totoises swim. Similar to the galaps. Sulcatas cannot swim but they can walk on the bottom with their breath held for up to 10 minutes. (I never tested the time length though).


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## Becki (Sep 4, 2010)

Here's a myth....tortoises are slow. I've seen some really motoring!


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## dmmj (Sep 4, 2010)

they are slow by choice, they can turn up the heat when needed.


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## tortoiseluvr (Sep 4, 2010)

every tortoise is slow- BUSTED I have two pancakes and once they get going they are very fast. They escape from predators in the wild by running away into the nearest hiding spot instead of tucking themselves in their shell.


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## Candy (Sep 4, 2010)

I think one of the myths that most people think is true is that a tortoises shell protects them from all harm. They don't realize that things can get to them even though they are inside of it.  I don't think that people think about dogs being able to bite through one either. 

By the way Madkins I love this thread.


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## Madkins007 (Sep 4, 2010)

Scoreboard:

"Can't swim (or 'motivate on water'): Partially busted

"Slow, mute, boring": Busted

"Eats 'bad for them food': Probably needs more research


How about...
'Dies on their backs quickly'
'Likes/needs high heat, dry climates'
'Can go a long time without food'
'Only needs to eat (fill in the blank)'
'Lives for 200 years (as a regular thing)'
'Grows to space provided'
...?


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## Angi (Sep 4, 2010)

Here is one that few will agree with me on.....Tortoises are not cuddly. I am convinced that my torts like to be held has snuggle up against my neck.


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## chadk (Sep 4, 2010)

"gets all their water from lettuce"
"desert torts just need a hot dry aquarium to thrive"
"you should NEVER mix species"
"you SHOULD mix species" (think the answer lies in the middle - based on several factors)
"you should never feed spinach" (or kale, or watercress, etc etc)
"______ is bad for torts because it is on some 'toxic list'"
"Belly heat is bad for torts"
"Belly heat is good for torts"
"you should never feed fruit"
"fruit should make up 10% of a torts diet"
"Russian Torts and Sulcata Torts have much different needs"
"torts and turtles are all carriers of salmonella"


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## Terry Allan Hall (Sep 5, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> The idea for this thread is to present 'tortoise myths' to be either confirmed or busted- understanding that some things may be true for some species, but a myth for others.
> 
> Examples:
> "Tortoises cannot swim"
> ...



Hermann's tortoises can swim (clumsily), at least for short periods (maybe an hour)...a girlfriend once put mine in a bath-tub full of water because "she looked hot and turtles love water, right?"...

Just one of the reasons it was a short relationship...


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## Tom (Sep 5, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> How about...
> 1. 'Dies on their backs quickly'
> 2. 'Likes/needs high heat, dry climates'
> 3. 'Can go a long time without food'
> ...



1. Busted. Probably days for most species, if not in the summer sun.
2. Probable. Some adults yes. Babies no.
3. Confirmed. Adult Galops can go more than a year. Smaller species, several months, at least. This one I've seen.
4. Unanswerable. The difference would be surviving. vs. thriving. I'll bet they could live for several years, if fed nothing but endive or romaine.
5. I believe this one to be true, but we'll all be dead before we can Bust or Confirm it. For our purposes here, it can't be answered.
6. Busted. Sadly, I've witnessed this one too.


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## Neal (Sep 5, 2010)

Tom said:


> 1. Busted. Probably days for most species, if not in the summer sun.
> 2. Probable. Some adults yes. Babies no.
> 3. Confirmed. Adult Galops can go more than a year. Smaller species, several months, at least. This one I've seen.
> 4. Unanswerable. The difference would be surviving. vs. thriving. I'll bet they could live for several years, if fed nothing but endive or romaine.
> ...



I agree with Tom on all his responses. Unfortunatley I have seen the first one busted...in Chuuk the locals would flip sea turtles on their backs to kill them, it would take about 3 days for them to die. 

Here's one: "Tortoises can hear"


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## NEtorts (Sep 5, 2010)

Az tortoise compound said:


> I have seen aldabran totoises swim. Similar to the galaps. Sulcatas cannot swim but they can walk on the bottom with their breath held for up to 10 minutes. (I never tested the time length though).



I have seen a video on you tube of a sulcata swimming across a pool, Human size inground pool!!! i will look for it again! my wading ponds in the torts enclosures are not deep enough for them to swim but I suspect if they float they will swim...........

for the life of me i cannot find that video! i know i was not dreaming, anyone want to test the theory with their sulcata? i know i do not!!!


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## Yvonne G (Sep 5, 2010)

One of the things on my adoption list for new folks is to have their in-the-ground-pool fenced so the tortoise can't drown. In order to test that and be sure I was giving out good information, I put my desert tortoise in very deep water and she sunk like a stone and just sat there.


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## Madkins007 (Sep 5, 2010)

Emysmeys- I suspect that a tortoise's ability to swim ties in closely to how much chance it would have to in the wild. A forest tortoise that could not swim would be a liability, while it would probably rarely come up for a desert species.

ChadK- which ones do you want covered?

Tom- I agree with the spirit of the answers- but to bust or prove a myth you have to show your work. How do you know how long a tort will survive on its back, etc. Otherwise, this is hearsay or circumstantial.

For example-

Myth: 'A turtle or tortoise can absorb water through the cloaca (and/or skin)."

PROBABLY BUSTED. They actually did a carefully controlled study using intentionally dehydrated Red-ear or Yellow-belly Sliders and found no evidence of cloacal uptake of water. (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jez.1055/abstract )

'Partially' busted since the article was on semi-aquatics and not tortoises, and I do not have access to the rest of the article for details. 

This link (http://www.mombu.com/reptiles/repti...-alterna-turtle-iguana-snake-106429-last.html) refers to a book by Neil F. Hadley (1975)- "Environmental Physiology of Desert Organisms" in which he apparently makes the claim that no water enters a chelonian's skin or cloaca. I would call it busted on this, but again, I have not read this.


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## Madkins007 (Sep 5, 2010)

(Arrrgh! Wrote a great reply and it has vanished! Dang it!)\

Emysemys- I would bet that swimming in torts depends on whether it is a survival skill in their habitat. A forest species that cannot swim is in trouble, but a desert species may never need the skill.

ChadK- any specifically you want to see taken on?

Tom- You know this, and I know this- but where is any real evidence? How do we make it so it is not our word vs. their word?

For example:

Myth: "Tortoises can absorb water through their skin and/or cloaca"

MOSTLY BUSTED. Neil F. Hadley ("Environmental Physiology of Desert Organisms", 1975) states that reptilian skin can pass water vapor out, but does not absorb inwards, and that the cloaca can concentrate water already in the urine, etc., but not absorb it from the outside. (an outline of the findings is at http://www.mombu.com/reptiles/repti...-alterna-turtle-iguana-snake-106429-last.html )

Another study was done on intentionally dehydrated Sliders and used sensitive instruments to determine that there was NO cloacal absorption. The study was able to extrapolate the findings to all 'cryptodire' (hidden eck) turtles, as opposed to the pluerodires (side necks), which use their cloacas differently in some cases. (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jez.1055/abstract )

I say MOSTLY busted because none of this was specifically focused on most common pet species of tortoises. However- I think it forms a strong scientific basis that soaks do not help by letting the tort absorb water.


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## Madkins007 (Sep 5, 2010)

(Arrrgh! Wrote a great reply and it has vanished! Dang it!)\

Emysemys- I would bet that swimming in torts depends on whether it is a survival skill in their habitat. A forest species that cannot swim is in trouble, but a desert species may never need the skill.

ChadK- any specifically you want to see taken on?

Tom- You know this, and I know this- but where is any real evidence? How do we make it so it is not our word vs. their word?

For example:

Myth: "Tortoises can absorb water through their skin and/or cloaca"

MOSTLY BUSTED. Neil F. Hadley ("Environmental Physiology of Desert Organisms", 1975) states that reptilian skin can pass water vapor out, but does not absorb inwards, and that the cloaca can concentrate water already in the urine, etc., but not absorb it from the outside. (an outline of the findings is at http://www.mombu.com /reptiles/reptiles/t-water-absorption-tortoise-alterna-turtle-iguana-snake-106429-last.html )

Another study was done on intentionally dehydrated Sliders and used sensitive instruments to determine that there was NO cloacal absorption. The study was able to extrapolate the findings to all 'cryptodire' (hidden eck) turtles, as opposed to the pluerodires (side necks), which use their cloacas differently in some cases. (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jez.1055/abstract )

I say MOSTLY busted because none of this was specifically focused on most common pet species of tortoises. However- I think it forms a strong scientific basis that soaks do not help by letting the tort absorb water.


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## Tom (Sep 5, 2010)

NEtorts said:


> Az tortoise compound said:
> 
> 
> > I have seen aldabran totoises swim. Similar to the galaps. Sulcatas cannot swim but they can walk on the bottom with their breath held for up to 10 minutes. (I never tested the time length though).
> ...





I'll test that one with Daisy tomorrow. I'm really curious. Don't worry, I'll be careful. I've seen her drink for over a minute with her whole head submerged, so I know she won't drown in one second.


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## chadk (Sep 5, 2010)

Swimming torts?

Star:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmDsY0xeWoU
Russian?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUVCJUsNt5s&feature=player_embedded
Aldabra
http://www.arkive.org/aldabra-giant-tortoise/geochelone-gigantea/video-06b.html
Yellowfoot?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l48ezTOw1OQ&feature=player_embedded#!
Sulcata:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT2HBScr12w&feature=related


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## Terry Allan Hall (Sep 6, 2010)

Neal Butler said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > 1. Busted. Probably days for most species, if not in the summer sun.
> ...





Yers, tortoises can hear...I ring a bell to call mine to dinner.


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## Madkins007 (Sep 6, 2010)

Emysemys- I would bet that swimming in torts depends on whether it is a survival skill in their habitat. A forest species that cannot swim is in trouble, but a desert species may never need the skill.

ChadK- any specifically you want to see taken on?

Tom- You know this, and I know this- but where is any real evidence? How do we make it so it is not our word vs. their word?

For example:

Myth: "Tortoises can absorb water through their skin and/or cloaca"

MOSTLY BUSTED. Neil F. Hadley ("Environmental Physiology of Desert Organisms", 1975) states that reptilian skin can pass water vapor out, but does not absorb inwards, and that the cloaca can concentrate water already in the urine, etc., but not absorb it from the outside. (an outline of the findings is at http://www.mombu.com /reptiles/reptiles/t-water-absorption-tortoise-alterna-turtle-iguana-snake-106429-last.html )

Another study was done on intentionally dehydrated Sliders and used sensitive instruments to determine that there was NO cloacal absorption. The study was able to extrapolate the findings to all 'cryptodire' (hidden eck) turtles, as opposed to the pluerodires (side necks), which use their cloacas differently in some cases. (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com /doi/10.1002/jez.1055/abstract )

I say MOSTLY busted because none of this was specifically focused on most common pet species of tortoises. However- I think it forms a strong scientific basis that soaks do not help by letting the tort absorb water.

- Terry Allen, Neal, etc.-
Myth: "Tortoises cannot hear"

PARTIALLY BUSTED.

Tortoises have well-developed inner ears and many species are known to hear and respond to certain sounds- mostly noises that simulate hatchlings, and noises made during combat and mating. Desert Tortoises are known to make sub-sonic sounds they can hear for some distance. Other tortoises may be able to do this as well as a function of sensing vibrations. (I'll post links if asked, but don't want to look for them right now.)

Whether they can 'hear' other noises is more 'iffy'. We need to separate sensory input. If a tortoise comes when 'called', is it responding to the vibrations, sights, smells, timing, or sounds? We KNOW they can identify their primary feeder (probably due to a combination of visual, olfactory, and other cues) but claims that they respond to sounds alone would need more solid proof.

A simple test would be to position a tape recorder or something near the habitat, but isolated from vibration; let it sit for a while (both to let them get comfortable with it and to 'erase' any lingering presence from your setting it up); and trigger it remotely so they cannot possibly see or smell you nearby. 

When this has been done, there is almost never a response from the tortoises, strongly suggesting that they are not responding to the audible part of the 'calling'.


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## Candy (Sep 6, 2010)

After watching the videos I certainly wouldn't try putting Dale in all of that water. They look like they are floating and trying to get out of it. It's sad to watch people do this to them especially the Sulcatas on the last one. What's with the bubbles?  I do agree with Mark on the fact of forest species.


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## Tom (Sep 6, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> - Terry Allen, Neal, etc.-
> Myth: "Tortoises cannot hear"
> 
> PARTIALLY BUSTED.
> ...



Your test is no good. Sounds played back through manmade devices do not sound the same, or elicit the same responses from animals. I can go out of sight and belt out commands for my dogs and they will respond perfectly all day long. As soon as I try it through a walkie talkie they just sit there and don't seem to hear it. I'm talking about really high quality, very clear sounding walkies that cost $1000 each. It took me three days to train a super smart, experienced, A++ dog to respond to commands through a walkie and I had to do it by using visual and auditory cues with the walkie.

Terry, if you ring the bell at different times of the day and your torts are out of sight, do they come running?


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## Madkins007 (Sep 6, 2010)

Tom said:


> Your test is no good. Sounds played back through manmade devices do not sound the same, or elicit the same responses from animals. I can go out of sight and belt out commands for my dogs and they will respond perfectly all day long. As soon as I try it through a walkie talkie they just sit there and don't seem to hear it. I'm talking about really high quality, very clear sounding walkies that cost $1000 each. It took me three days to train a super smart, experienced, A++ dog to respond to commands through a walkie and I had to do it by using visual and auditory cues with the walkie.
> 
> Terry, if you ring the bell at different times of the day and your torts are out of sight, do they come running?



That is because your dog has been conditioned by MORE than just the sound. The sound of a barking dog on TV perks my dogs ears up- it responds to the stimuli- until it realizes it is not real.

Your suggested test is still using multiple stimuli- no evidence that audio is doing the trick.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Sep 6, 2010)

Tom said:


> Terry, if you ring the bell at different times of the day and your torts are out of sight, do they come running?



Yes, and, interestingly enough, they only pay attention to one particular bell...an old cow-bell I've always used. They've ignored other bells I've tried.

I often sit out between their enclosures, but they only run to their feeding spots when I ring it...other times, they'll wander by, from time to time, to see if there's anything interesting on the "feeding rock", but ringing the cowbell causes them to get the lead out! 

Never tried using a recording of their cowbell, so I've no idea if they'd respond to that.


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## Tom (Sep 6, 2010)

Yep! They can swim just fine. She seemed very relaxed, not frantic as I expected. She'd look in the direction she wanted to go and just calmly paddle over there. She stopped paddling and just sat still a few times. I only let her swim for about 45 seconds, but she seemed like she would have been just fine for longer. Come to think of it my Emu did this same thing to me. They can swim like a duck. A really big duck.


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## chadk (Sep 7, 2010)

So the water soaking thing is interesting... I'm wondering if these carrot soaks for box turtles and torts really does anything. Anyone have any proof one way or the other? Same for other types of soaks: baby food, pediolyte(sp?), viatim water, etc...


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## terryo (Sep 7, 2010)

Tom, what great pictures! I can't believe the hands on education we get here.

I never soak any older guys or adults. Hatchlings I feed in a little bit of water....this is for boxies.
I never soaked Pio....He was misted all the time. Also as a little guy, I never saw him sit in the water. He used to stick his head into the dish and drink. Now that is's older he'll sit in the water and stick his head in all the way to get a drink.
Sick one's I would soak.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 7, 2010)

chadk said:


> So the water soaking thing is interesting... I'm wondering if these carrot soaks for box turtles and torts really does anything. Anyone have any proof one way or the other? Same for other types of soaks: baby food, pediolyte(sp?), viatim water, etc...



Being a turtle and tortoise rescue, I take in my share of sick and injured turtles and tortoises. 

All I can say about the Gerber baby food soaks is...when I get a box turtle with swollen shut eyes that's not eating, and I soak him in the red Gerber baby foods (squash, carrots, sweet potatoes), after three days, the swollen eyes are open and the turtle is ready to eat. 

This might not be empirical research, but it IS hands on experience. I don't know how it works, since its been busted that they absorb through their skin, but it works.


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## Neal (Sep 7, 2010)

Myth: If turtles and tortoises eat toxic ooz they will mutate into crime fighting ninjas. I'd be willing to try.


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## chadk (Sep 7, 2010)

But they DO like pizza!


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## dannomite (Sep 7, 2010)

Tom said:


> Yep! They can swim just fine. She seemed very relaxed, not frantic as I expected. She'd look in the direction she wanted to go and just calmly paddle over there. She stopped paddling and just sat still a few times. I only let her swim for about 45 seconds, but she seemed like she would have been just fine for longer. Come to think of it my Emu did this same thing to me. They can swim like a duck. A really big duck.



Awesome pics Tom! Hah that Sulcata looks like it is livin the life!


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## NEtorts (Sep 7, 2010)

I knew I had seen a sulcata swimming!!!! awsome pics but.... i wonder if different specimens would have different densities like people, some people float some sink....this Sulcata looks like a floater....I am tempted to try mine and see if he is a floater or sinker  I dont think a specific tort could swim if he was a sinker?


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## Madkins007 (Sep 7, 2010)

emysemys said:


> chadk said:
> 
> 
> > So the water soaking thing is interesting... I'm wondering if these carrot soaks for box turtles and torts really does anything. Anyone have any proof one way or the other? Same for other types of soaks: baby food, pediolyte(sp?), viatim water, etc...
> ...



I think the only thing you can say for certain is that it appears that reptile skin is waterproof with regards to water entering the skin. Many reports, including the book mentioned, state that water vapor loss can happen through the skin- but those are MUCH smaller molecules-that is how Gore-Tex works.

Surrounding a tort with water or water and helpful stuff may still have a lot of benefits, although I personally think they are more like the idea of dipping your finger in food and touching it to a baby's lips than the idea that goodness is passing through the skin.


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## biglove4bigtorts (Sep 7, 2010)

emysemys said:


> chadk said:
> 
> 
> > So the water soaking thing is interesting... I'm wondering if these carrot soaks for box turtles and torts really does anything. Anyone have any proof one way or the other? Same for other types of soaks: baby food, pediolyte(sp?), viatim water, etc...
> ...





Vitamin A could very well be acting on the eyes in this case, b/c the eyes and eyelids are a permeable membrane and could be adsorbing the Vitamin A, which is acting almost like and opthalmic Vit A drop. If it were me, I'd continue to dose these guys with food that has a higher than normal amount of grated or cooked sweet potato and supplement twice a week with a vitamin supplement that has preformed Vitamin A for a couple of months to help thier recovery. Yvonee, have you ever considered looking for an eye wash that has some vit A in it to use? I am not sure that is available, but you cold probably get a vet to help you calculate a safe dosage to mix in some saline and use to flush the eyes. I guess if what you are doing works, there is no need, but maybe I at least helped with an explanation as to why this works for you.


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## porter (Sep 13, 2010)

my redfoots have a swim once a week to help them keep up on the exercise. they always walk into the deeper water which makes me think they enjoy it


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## Madkins007 (Sep 13, 2010)

biglove4bigtorts said:


> Vitamin A could very well be acting on the eyes in this case, b/c the eyes and eyelids are a permeable membrane and could be adsorbing the Vitamin A, which is acting almost like and opthalmic Vit A drop. If it were me, I'd continue to dose these guys with food that has a higher than normal amount of grated or cooked sweet potato and supplement twice a week with a vitamin supplement that has preformed Vitamin A for a couple of months to help thier recovery. Yvonee, have you ever considered looking for an eye wash that has some vit A in it to use? I am not sure that is available, but you cold probably get a vet to help you calculate a safe dosage to mix in some saline and use to flush the eyes. I guess if what you are doing works, there is no need, but maybe I at least helped with an explanation as to why this works for you.


Let's take a look.

Myth: "Turtles and tortoises can absorb medications, specifically vitamin A, through the eyes."

Status: QUESTIONABLE

I checked Dr. Mader's book 'Reptile Medicine and Surgery' and there is no suggestion to use the eyes as a method for administering medications or vitamins. 

While the eye is a permeable membrane, you have to wonder how efficiently it would conduct the vitamins or medications to the blood vessels, and if the vessels there would effectively absorb enough to have an effect. (Some illicit drugs are administered this way by some users, but these are psycho-active drugs that are designed to be easily absorbed and work very differently.)

There does not seem to be a lot of clinical support for vitamin A eyedrops sold in pet stores. That is, they do not seem to change the vitamin A levels in the blood- although they do seem anecdotally to help some eye problems- possibly by washing or lubricating the eye.

One interesting point that I know Yvonne already knows- swollen eyes in Box Turtles is often a Vitamin A problem, but swollen eyes in other species is usually something else! Boxies are very sensitive to vitamin A levels in their blood, and most other species are much more forgiving. Vitamin A is also a fat-soluble vitamin which means that if you offer too much vitamin A to the Boxie, it causes OTHER problems! What fun!

(Red-ear Sliders, etc. often have swollen eyes, but that is more likely due to poor water conditions or stress. Dr. Mader suggests having blood tests done before starting any vitamin A therapies for most species.)

I listed this as QUESTIONABLE since I cannot find clinical proof that it does not work, but I can also not find any clinical evidence that it does.


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## greeks (Sep 14, 2010)

Re: baby food soak...

Perhaps while sitting there they are inadvertently drinking just a bit so they're getting the vitamins in as if they were eating? I've only done a baby food soak a couple of times out of desperation but the tortoise definitely perked right up.

~Shauna


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## Kristina (Sep 14, 2010)

I do believe that is at least partially true, Shauna. I have also tossed some greens in the water while they were soaking, that way they get mouthfuls of the water/vitamins/baby food while they are taking bites of the greens.


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## Madkins007 (Oct 3, 2010)

Today's myth:

"Tortoise eyes are like humans, so light is light, right?"

BUSTED!

Human eyes have three kinds of cone cells in them to see color with (one each triggered by colors around yellow, green, and violet). 

Reptiles have 4 kinds of cones. We do not know for sure, but probably the triggering is shifted so they trigger at something like yellow-orange, yellow-green, blue, and near ultraviolet (UVA). 

Lights humans surround themselves with are designed to look right to their eyes- colors are best in sunlight or incandescent light, look a little washed out in cool white fluorescents, oddly dark under street lights, etc.

Raising a reptile under a typical human light with little UVA in it would be like looking at stuff with the red/violet colors muted or shifted to black to a human. 

Proper lighting and color helps with the physical development of the eye, probably helps with mate selection and breeding, and probably affects eating. Under light with no UVA, green food probably looks yellower, and bright red strawberries probably look a bit black.

Using limited color lighting would make things worse. Common fluorescents are either 'cool' or 'warm white'- basically either yellow or blue. Plant lights are green/blue and maybe red. This has got to make even the tastiest foods look... wrong. (Ever seen good red meat or bright red strawberries under a green bulb?)

They also probably use the UVA to help guide them to or away from the sun as they thermoregulate in the wild. 

The ideal reptile light would offer a balanced range of a little infrared, each of the colors of the rainbow, and some UVA and UVA. We would moderate the intensity and duration for different species, but all species of reptiles have the same basic eye structure so need all wavelengths.

Few bulbs do it all at once. For example, UV mercury vapor bulbs hit the blue, purple, and UV ranges hard, but little IR, red, yellow, or orange. 

One example of a working combination would be to combine a UVB fluorescent bulb (yellows, greens, UVA, UVB) and a plant bulb with the red light features (red, green, blue, violet).

(Note, I am working on a chart for what bulbs do what so you can more easily find a combination that works for you. I'll post it at the Tortoise Library under Lighting as I work on it. See the link in the sig below.)

(One good source for this is http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/exotic-vet-vol9-3.pdf )


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## Angi (Oct 3, 2010)

I have been thinking about the baby food soak and here is my thought. It is true that water does not penetrate the skin, but somethings have smaller molecules and do penetrate the skin. We know that vitamin A is used in skin care and does wonders for skin ( of humans anyway). So maybe the vitamin A in the baby food is penetrating the turtle skin.


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## PeanutbuttER (Oct 3, 2010)

Madkins, I'd love to see that chart when you have it ready.


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## HLogic (Oct 5, 2010)

Mark, don't forget the role of the pineal gland (and 'third eye') in photodetection, circadian rhythm, etc. Varying spectral components have a significant impact on seasonal, and thus, behavioral activity (e.g. hormone production related to the reproductive cycle, timing of feeding increases/decreases, brumation/hibernation, etc.).


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## Madkins007 (Oct 5, 2010)

HLogic said:


> Mark, don't forget the role of the pineal gland (and 'third eye') in photodetection, circadian rhythm, etc. Varying spectral components have a significant impact on seasonal, and thus, behavioral activity (e.g. hormone production related to the reproductive cycle, timing of feeding increases/decreases, brumation/hibernation, etc.).



LOL! The linked article hits the pineal gland hard. I left most of that stuff off to keep the thing from getting even wordier than usual for one of my posts!

Bottom line- UV light = good. No UV = bad (or at least not so good).

Now I want to try to find some research on reptilian biorhythms- should we be moderating the light during the day more realistically to improve feeding, breeding, etc. when indoors?


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## Balboa (Oct 26, 2010)

The Hearing and Seeing bits I find interesting. I do have some experience there, no expert though. As far as audio reproduction goes, by and large walkie talkies and tvs (unless super high dollar) suck. Just like telephones they are designed to primarily only pass on the narrow band of audio that humans hear best. (around 1k hz is what comes to mind, might be off though). Anything above or below is severely attenuated. I believe dogs are tuned to a higher frequency AND more sensitive. That walkie talkie will sound severely distorted to them. Differentiating human commands is a considerably higher order operation than the instinctive response to another dog barking in the distance. Even with our limited hearing humans can perceive very low levels of distortion, ie that stereo that just doesn't sound right, but you can't put your finger on why. Chances are Tom's dogs could not recognize his voice at all through that walkie talkie, and they're trained to respond to him and him alone. I imagine the same will apply with a common tape recorder for torts, but a truly top end hi fi might give some results.

I'm going to spend some time on that eye site article. It makes me glad I chose the light I did for Rocky. I can save you all alot of time and trouble (assuming you want true, full spectrum lighting). Old Fashioned (and getting hard to come by) t12 Daylight Deluxe (aka Chroma75), Coolwhite Deluxe, or Chroma 50 depending on the color temp you're going for. The Deluxe is important, it gives the extra extension in the high reds, uv area. Sometimes the deluxe isn't really a deluxe so I've discovered, the CRI has to be 90 or better, or it aint no deluxe. Don't bother with the t-8s, I haven't found a one yet that says its a deluxe that actually was. (except in some of the small sizes, they don't sell as fast, and many are quite old stock).

I discovered this while working on my planted fish tanks. It really got frustrating after a while, as I wanted to try and give true full spectrum lighting to them. Hard to do with modern "eco friendly" tubes. Modern tubes use "tri-phosphor" technology which means they output 3 narrow bands of intense color. Our minds somehow convert the three colors into all the different shades (kind of like RGB on your computer screen), but not as well as if they were looking at the same colors under natural sunlight. (thus the low CRI on modern tubes, Color Rendering Index).

The old fashioned tubes used Halo Phosphors, which output light across the whole light spectrum. It is centered around the green/yellows for optimum efficiency, which is what our eyes see best. The efficiency "trick" to tri-phosphors is that since those 3 narrow bands are so intense, our eyes percieve the light as really bright, even though it actually may be putting out less useful (to plants in my case) light energy than the old dim t12. I lost alot of plants before I learned this.

I'm so anal I actually built a simple spectroscope so I could check the spectral output on different lights. Didn't work so well for me, turns out I'm color blind to the high reds, but the wife can see them! poor woman had to endure sessions of ok, which ones brighter? ok what about this one? etc

If you can't find t-12 deluxe, you can do as well if not better with a regular t-12 halo phosphor tube augmented with a reveal incandescent or halogen. The reveals have a notch filter in them to subdue the oranges, which the standard halo phosphor tubes have an excess of.

sorry, probably too much again


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## DeanS (Oct 26, 2010)

Hey Mark...I do like the library so far...and I think it's only going to get better...CONGRATS! My opinion is that a CHE and the Powersun MVB (specifically) are the ONLY artificial sources a (scrub/desert-dwelling) tort would ever need during inclement weather + winter, of course! I know you feel that one lighting source can't be a 'cure-all' but the Powersun has to come close...Yes?!?!?


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## Madkins007 (Oct 26, 2010)

DeanS said:


> Hey Mark...I do like the library so far...and I think it's only going to get better...CONGRATS! My opinion is that a CHE and the Powersun MVB (specifically) are the ONLY artificial sources a (scrub/desert-dwelling) tort would ever need during inclement weather + winter, of course! I know you feel that one lighting source can't be a 'cure-all' but the Powersun has to come close...Yes?!?!?



I'm having a hard time finding the spectral response for the Powersun bulb, but that category is short in the green-blue-violet part of the spectrum. A cool-white fluorescent bulb or a halogen bulb would balance that out, or position it close to a window so the sun provides all the visible light.

Bizarre, isn't it? You can look at a whitish light and it looks white, but if you go to a paint store or makeup place, you can try different lights and see big differences, or if you photograph under different lights different colors turn out oddly, but our eyes work so well to make it all look normal.

By the way, if you have plants in the tort habitat, they would like the additional light wavelengths that the MVB is missing.


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## PeanutbuttER (Oct 26, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> By the way, if you have plants in the tort habitat, they would like the additional light wavelengths that the MVB is missing.



That could explain in part my perpetual lack of ability to grow plants on my tort table...

I second that the library is looking great. I was on it just yesterday. Great Job. Thank you.


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## Madkins007 (Oct 27, 2010)

PeanutbuttER said:


> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> > By the way, if you have plants in the tort habitat, they would like the additional light wavelengths that the MVB is missing.
> ...



I really appreciate that Dean and PeanutbuttER! I enjoy doing the research and writing, but it is just so much easier to write it once and then refer people instead of doing it over and over.

Anything you'd like to see added? (Other than a lot of photos. I am going to add some diagrams, etc., but want to keep it easy to open and navigate on mobile devices and such.)


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## bllauben (Oct 29, 2010)

Myth: animals are uncapable of showing emotion or reading emotions of other animals. They cannot feel nor think logically.

I would like to say that this one is totally busted.

When I first got Sonya and Boris, Sonya was so shy that she hid in her shell most of the time. Boris nudged her and she followed him everywhere.

When I tried to seperate Boris and Sonya (Boris tends to be a bit of a bully), Boris gets distressed and searches everywhere she normally hides. He even digs where she normally tunnels.

When Boris had free reign of the apartment and I went looking for him, calling his name, he came right to me, looked at me and walked away. Little snot!

Patches, my young calico cat, has befriended Boris and Sonya. They have accepted her into their "family." Boris has once almost accepted her offer to play with a toy mouse.


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## Madkins007 (Oct 30, 2010)

bllauben said:


> Myth: animals are uncapable of showing emotion or reading emotions of other animals. They cannot feel nor think logically.
> 
> I would like to say that this one is totally busted.
> 
> ...



(Puts on his Official "Dr. Science (TM) Cap O' Science" and gets his "Mr. Wizard" Brand Pointer)

Not so fast. A myth is a myth until it is busted by SCIENCE. Are there reasons for the behaviors you see that do not involve emotions, logical thinking, etc.?

You make three claims- 
1. "animals are uncapable of showing emotion" 
2. "or reading emotions of other animals." 
3. "They cannot feel nor think logically."

Let's start with #3. I'll give you a fair 'BUSTED' on this one, although I would not have phrased it that way. I would have phrased it "Tortoises demonstrate problem solving skills and other elements of what is commonly called intelligent thinking." We know from a lot of lab experiments and filed observations that tortoises have roughly the same IQ, as it is interpreted for animals, as a white rat.

Point #1- Incapable of Emotions. This is a huge debate, and it focuses on exactly how we define emotions. From an anatomical/evolutionary point of view, the Reptilian Brain, the oldest part of the mammal or human brain and the entire brain of reptiles, is considered to be the source of very 'simple' emotions- things like happy, unhappy, scared, angry, aroused, curious, calm... basic states of being.

We can say this is BUSTED, that tortoises can experience basic emotions and be OK scientifically speaking. If you want to try to assign 'higher emotions', like loyalty or love, you'll be making an argument that people with PhD's and such discuss without ever coming to an agreement. Unless you have some really cool research for it, it will have to remain "unproven".

Point #2- Reading the Emotions of Other Animals. This is going to be hard to sell to me. I would agree that tortoises can recognize basic emotions in each other, but to assume a tortoise can read another species body language (beyond simple things like "ITS GOING TO ATTACK ME!") and determine an emotion there... I am not sure you can make that argument from your observations.

My reasoning...

The interactions you saw between Boris and Sonya are perfectly normal behaviors for a semi-social species- there is safety in numbers. If Boris feels safe, Sonya can feel safe near him- especially in a larger environment, like an apartment. If Boris senses food, she can follow him to food, etc. And it all works the other way around as well. (Speaking of which, I am sure you know we really don't recommend letting tortoises roam in an apartment. We can discuss this as another myth if you would like.)

The interactions with the cat can be looked at as the cat and the tortoises being curious about each other- neither animal falls into the traditional roles of predator, prey, food, mate, or competition, so curiosity often kicks in. 

Interactions with you. There is no evidence that tortoises respond to having their names called, but they obviously recognize their main food source and know that if you are around there is a good chance they will be fed- especially if they also see or smell food.

I'm sorry, but without some better science, I cannot let you call #2 busted.

(Removes Cap O' Science and puts Pointer back in its lock box.)

None of this means that they are not cool, intelligent, friendly animals- it just means that we have to be careful about giving them human emotions and characteristics and calling that science or proof or anything.


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