# "Starve Days"? What?



## Ruszian Tortoise (Jun 6, 2020)

I was looking around, and found this link... 





Tortoise Facts


Learn all you need to know about Tortoises




www.thetortoiseshop.com




It says "As a general rule, you should offer an amount of food equivalent to the size of your tortoise's shell. They should be fed once a day, 5 days a week. The 2 starve days can be implemented at any time, in any order. This allows the slow-working digestive system to catch up, removing the tortoise's need for a self starvation period in the summer."
Is this practiced by anyone? Or is it cruel? It seems strange.


----------



## iAmCentrochelys sulcata (Jun 6, 2020)

That’s nonsense, a tortoise shouldn’t have a starve day. 
Would you like going 2 days without food to digest your food?


----------



## Ink (Jun 6, 2020)

I feed mine a lot everyday. And when I think about it, it would be close if not a little more of shell size. That seems to be what they eat.


----------



## Ruszian Tortoise (Jun 6, 2020)

Do tortoises " self-starve" in the summer?


----------



## Markw84 (Jun 6, 2020)

Ruszian Tortoise said:


> Do tortoises " self-starve" in the summer?


I believe this is another misinterpretation of their life in the wild. Self-starve and is they have a choice? No. Starvation periods of low to no food availability? Yes, for sure, for many species. Just a temperate species have the ability to brumate in cold weather, tortoises also have the ability to shut down and aestivate when weather is warm or hot, but food has become scarce and/or dried up. Some survive, some die, and don't make it until conditions improve. But just because they have the ability to do it as a survival tactic, does not mean it is a choice or optimal.


"to let the digestive system catch up"!! Food movement through most tortoises averages about a total of 12 days. Some more highly digestible foods, quicker, high fiber low food content, slower. Again an amazing adaptation to allowing food to remain longer when not available to allow the digestive system to get as much as possible from it. There are studies of reverse movement of higher fiber items backwards in the digestive tract to reabsorb more nutrients that have been further broken down. In times of plenty, more poop! Nothing to "catch up".

The debate is whether shutdown periods or slowdown periods are good for a tortoise and a reason they can live so long. Does the metabolism benefit from periods of shutdown? This is very different than "starvation days" A prolonged period of inactivity.


----------



## Maggie3fan (Jun 6, 2020)

In the PacificNorthWest my tortoises eat everyday all day the weeds and blooms and grasses growing. If tortoises can't get food the will eat their own poop or some other things poop...rotten leaves or anything...


----------



## Ruszian Tortoise (Jun 6, 2020)

maggie3fan said:


> In the PacificNorthWest my tortoises eat everyday all day the weeds and blooms and grasses growing. If tortoises can't get food the will eat their own poop or some other things poop...rotten leaves or anything...


Eww! ?


----------



## wellington (Jun 6, 2020)

There is a lot of stupid on the internet about tortoise.


----------



## jsheffield (Jun 6, 2020)

Occasionally I'll miss a day feeding my tortoises and I don't worry about it... they're not going to starve.

Jamie


----------



## RosemaryDW (Jun 6, 2020)

wellington said:


> There is a lot of stupid on the internet about tortoise.


There is more stupid than smart, for sure.


----------



## RosemaryDW (Jun 6, 2020)

I’ve never understood what exactly it is that is meant by a pile about shell size. Is it a fluffy pile of frisee? A bowl of sow thistles, with thick stems? A quarter pound of Mazuri (which I assume is high in density and heavy)?

I let mine eat as much as she wants. In Spring she eats like a pig; stabilizes in the summer; slows down in the fall. We’ve just had a couple of gloomy days and since she didn’t get super warm she ate less than she would on a sunny day.

There are times I’ve seen her eat so much I’m afraid she’ll explode but so far so good. I can’t imagine handing over just a shell’s worth. ?


----------



## wellington (Jun 6, 2020)

RosemaryDW said:


> I’ve never understood what exactly it is that is meant by a pile about shell size. Is it a fluffy pile of frisee? A bowl of sow thistles, with thick stems? A quarter pound of Mazuri (which I assume is high in density and heavy)?
> 
> I let mine eat as much as she wants. In Spring she eats like a pig; stabilizes in the summer; slows down in the fall. We’ve just had a couple of gloomy days and since she didn’t get super warm she ate less than she would on a sunny day.
> 
> There are times I’ve seen her eat so much I’m afraid she’ll explode but so far so good. I can’t imagine handing over just a shell’s worth. ?


It's always been said on here too. However the big difference is most everyone then says if they eat that give a bigger amount next time and so on. Then it's almost always stated along with the above that they should be able to be fed enough that some is left over. That in the wild they will graze on and off all day.
Stated like that the shell size is a good starting point. 
I'd like to make the people that gives a starve day or two a starve day or two. See how they like it.


----------



## RosemaryDW (Jun 6, 2020)

wellington said:


> It's always been said on here too. However the big difference is most everyone then says if they eat that give a bigger amount next time and so on. Then it's almost always stated along with the above that they should be able to be fed enough that some is left over.


That’s true.

We never seem to have leftovers of anything we put out on a warm day, unless it’s not a favorite. And on those days we tend to find the nubs of some new plant she‘s eaten in the yard. :/ I think it must be because she gets to burn off more energy than she would in an enclosure? That or she’s trying to win some kind of eating contest.


----------



## turtlesteve (Jun 6, 2020)

I don’t like the term “starvation days” but this is a concept I have considered. I do not think it is stupid or ridiculous. Tortoises have a digestive behavior that varies depending on diet - it slows down if they eat less, to extract more out of the food. Are there actually any benefits of fasting? I have no idea, but it’s something I would love to see a study on.


----------



## Tom (Jun 6, 2020)

turtlesteve said:


> Are there actually any benefits of fasting? I have no idea, but it’s something I would love to see a study on.


Early on in my sulcata keeping days, I fed my first sulcata the same sort of "healthy" foods I fed to my green iguanas. My first one pyramided, so I asked the experts what I did wrong. They unanimously told me that I fed too much, too often and the wrong foods. It was thoroughly explained that there are no fields of lettuce growing in Africa for sulcatas to eat, and that in the dry season all they have to eat is a little bit of dead dry grass. I was told that mine pyramided because it was receiving too much nutrition. I was instructed to feed small amounts of weeds and dry grass every other day to simulate what would happen in the wild and to slow their growth.

I followed my instructions dutifully, and the result was tiny, stunted, pyramided, 30 pound, 10 year old sulcatas.

I don't see any health benefit to keeping them hungry. Slowing the growth did nothing to stop or slow the pyramiding. At that time, around 1996, we were stilll under the mistaken idea that these are desert animals and any moisture or humidity would give them shell rot and respiratory infections. This being the case (The wrong case as it turns out...) I kept them on rabbit pellets when indoors, and in a large sunning pen all day every day when the weather permitted. The poor things would chase down and devour any leaves that happened to blow in to their barren dry enclosure.

Fast forward 12+ years from those days, and free feeding the right foods, while housing them in the right conditions, produces smooth healthy babies that reach 80-100 pounds in 10 years.


----------



## wellington (Jun 6, 2020)

turtlesteve said:


> I don’t like the term “starvation days” but this is a concept I have considered. I do not think it is stupid or ridiculous. Tortoises have a digestive behavior that varies depending on diet - it slows down if they eat less, to extract more out of the food. Are there actually any benefits of fasting? I have no idea, but it’s something I would love to see a study on.


In the wild if there is food they will eat. They wouldn't purposely not eat. Wild animals don't always know if they will have food every day. If they don't find food they dont eat. It wouldn't be by choice though.


----------



## turtlesteve (Jun 7, 2020)

Tom said:


> Early on in my sulcata keeping days, I fed my first sulcata the same sort of "healthy" foods I fed to my green iguanas. My first one pyramided, so I asked the experts what I did wrong. They unanimously told me that I fed too much, too often and the wrong foods. It was thoroughly explained that there are no fields of lettuce growing in Africa for sulcatas to eat, and that in the dry season all they have to eat is a little bit of dead dry grass. I was told that mine pyramided because it was receiving too much nutrition. I was instructed to feed small amounts of weeds and dry grass every other day to simulate what would happen in the wild and to slow their growth.
> 
> I followed my instructions dutifully, and the result was tiny, stunted, pyramided, 30 pound, 10 year old sulcatas.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I get it. And I don’t have one shred of evidence that runs counter to your experience. I free feed all of mine daily - it’s the best _available_ information on tortoise care, at present.

Still, I can’t help but question things (sometimes everything). Tortoises are just so.... different from everything else. I mean, what other animals can do radically change their metabolism? I have seen 10 year old sulcatas that were 100 lbs and others that were one pound. Any other animal so stunted would have died, even other reptiles. But that one pound sulcata still has the ability to start growing rapidly if given the chance and will also mature into a 100 lb adult. This means that attempting to draw parallels to other animals, with regards to overfeeding or underfeeding, is useless. 

We do know that tortoises have to fast in the wild sometimes, though certainly not by choice. So clearly, they have adapted to handle it. I have to consider the _possibility_ that they have adapted to use periods of fasting for some (yet unknown) metabolic purpose. This is all 100% speculative, of course, but hopefully gives some insight into why I don’t find the idea absurd.

Steve


----------



## Tom (Jun 7, 2020)

turtlesteve said:


> This is all 100% speculative, of course, but hopefully gives some insight into why I don’t find the idea absurd.


It does.

In the words of Dave Gahan: I'm always willing to learn when you've got something to teach.


----------



## Ruszian Tortoise (Jun 7, 2020)

I come back the next day to find that this thread (at least partially) exploded ?.
So I think it's safe to say that this website is untrustworthy? Here's another exerpt:

There are a number of bedding/substrate available for tortoises. We personally very much like to use dry bedding, such as Aspen (a soft shredded wood based substrate), Kritters Crumble (a less soil based version of coconut husk) and Pellet bedding (compressed grass pellets). These options are organic, tortoise friendly and leave less dust than soil based products.

Alternatively, soil based products are available and are arguably more natural, however, they are high maintenance and take some time to find the correct amount of misting, so it is not too damp and never dusty.

... I think that they believe tortoises should not have much (if any) moisture at all in their enclosure?


----------



## turtlesteve (Jun 7, 2020)

Ruszian Tortoise said:


> I come back the next day to find that this thread (at least partially) exploded ?.
> So I think it's safe to say that this website is untrustworthy? Here's another exerpt:
> 
> There are a number of bedding/substrate available for tortoises. We personally very much like to use dry bedding, such as Aspen (a soft shredded wood based substrate), Kritters Crumble (a less soil based version of coconut husk) and Pellet bedding (compressed grass pellets). These options are organic, tortoise friendly and leave less dust than soil based products.
> ...



Yeah every bit of that advice is horrible and outdated. Go with what you read here.


----------



## Tom (Jun 7, 2020)

Ruszian Tortoise said:


> I come back the next day to find that this thread (at least partially) exploded ?.
> So I think it's safe to say that this website is untrustworthy? Here's another exerpt:
> 
> There are a number of bedding/substrate available for tortoises. We personally very much like to use dry bedding, such as Aspen (a soft shredded wood based substrate), Kritters Crumble (a less soil based version of coconut husk) and Pellet bedding (compressed grass pellets). These options are organic, tortoise friendly and leave less dust than soil based products.
> ...


That was the typical advice back when I learned all about tortoises in the late 80s and early 90s. Compressed grass bedding... Supposed to be the next best thing since we were all using rabbit pellets at the time. Alfalfa (what rabbit pellets are made from) was supposedly much too high in protein if they ate it. The grass bedding was supposed to be MUCH better because of that. Both of them broke down and got very dusty. Both of them contributed to dehydration.


----------



## ZEROPILOT (Jun 7, 2020)

Ruszian Tortoise said:


> I come back the next day to find that this thread (at least partially) exploded ?.
> So I think it's safe to say that this website is untrustworthy? Here's another exerpt:
> 
> There are a number of bedding/substrate available for tortoises. We personally very much like to use dry bedding, such as Aspen (a soft shredded wood based substrate), Kritters Crumble (a less soil based version of coconut husk) and Pellet bedding (compressed grass pellets). These options are organic, tortoise friendly and leave less dust than soil based products.
> ...


Yea.
You need to leave the pages of that publication in the outhouse so that it can be used for something good.


----------



## ZEROPILOT (Jun 7, 2020)

Tom said:


> That was the typical advice back when I learned all about tortoises in the late 80s and early 90s. Compressed grass bedding... Supposed to be the next best thing since we were all using rabbit pellets at the time. Alfalfa (what rabbit pellets are made from) was supposedly much too high in protein if they ate it. The grass bedding was supposed to be MUCH better because of that. Both of them broke down and got very dusty. Both of them contributed to dehydration.


Me too.
Remember when tortoises got all of the water they needed from the foods that they ate?
The hobby has come along way.
God bless the internet.


----------



## janevicki (Jun 7, 2020)

LOL I laughed when I read this post! My torts and turts don't know what "Starve Days" are. And I am glad about that. I appreciate the knowledge that we have here in this forum. You older members really helped me out big time on what to do with my new ones. 

I love seeing all the members with their beautiful, healthy turtles and tortoises. 

Am I right in saying : "If given the proper food, I have not run into any pyramding or other deformities due to diet."?


----------



## Tom (Jun 8, 2020)

janevicki said:


> Am I right in saying : "If given the proper food, I have not run into any pyramding or other deformities due to diet."?


That would be correct. I'd go further and say even without the proper food, the diet won't cause pyramiding. I once saw pictures of two 50-60 pound 5 year old sulcatas that regularly ate a bowl of cat kibble, but were bowling ball smooth. They lived outdoors in South Florida in a burrow.


----------



## mark1 (Jun 10, 2020)

There was a person I seen post on here that went by “olddog” I believe they raised Galapagos tortoises …… seemed pretty knowledgeable to me ….. they had a similar view in limiting food ……..

From reading and digesting his stuff , couple things I’ve come to believe



Vegetation growing in a lot of the areas tortoises live in is growing in nutrient depleted soils and are lacking in nutrition …….



Tortoises don’t naturally spend their days grazing , they spend their days hiding ……



Wild tortoises eat less quantities of less nutritious food and work harder for it …….



Liver disease , kills a lot of tortoises and turtles , imo more than most people would think ……. A large portion of liver disease in reptiles is caused by hepatic lipidosis ………. Over feeding and lack of hibernation being though to be two contributing factors ………



One question was do tortoises “self starve” in the summer ? I’d say yes , Tortoise do self starve in the summer , it’s called aestivation ……..



A stunted captive 10yr old 30lb sulcata , I seen a study on the growth rate of captive vs free range sulcatas , the average size for 10yr old free ranging sulcata was around 5kg ……..



There are a few folks that have studied the time allotment during the active season of wild tortoises , feeding was a very small portion of their day , in any I can remember ……..



Just an opinion , I would think an animal that has evolved to have a digestive system capable of extracting the maximum nutrition from low nutrition foods , just might have issues with an unending supply of highly nutritious food ?



An observation , at no point in the year do my turtles look more vibrant /healthier than in the spring after a week out of hibernation …….





Over fed water turtles that you force growth on do end up with lumpier than normal shells ……….


----------



## method89 (Jun 10, 2020)

mark1 said:


> There was a person I seen post on here that went by “olddog” I believe they raised Galapagos tortoises …… seemed pretty knowledgeable to me ….. they had a similar view in limiting food ……..
> 
> From reading and digesting his stuff , couple things I’ve come to believe
> 
> ...


"Liver disease , kills a lot of tortoises and turtles , imo more than most people would think ……. A large portion of liver disease in reptiles is caused by hepatic lipidosis ………. Over feeding and lack of hibernation being though to be two contributing factors ………"

Do you have any studies that you can reference to this? Not looking to disagree as I have no facts to dispute it. I would just be interested in learning more.


----------



## LasTortugasNinja (Jun 10, 2020)

method89 said:


> "Liver disease , kills a lot of tortoises and turtles , imo more than most people would think ……. A large portion of liver disease in reptiles is caused by hepatic lipidosis ………. Over feeding and lack of hibernation being though to be two contributing factors ………"
> 
> Do you have any studies that you can reference to this? Not looking to disagree as I have no facts to dispute it. I would just be interested in learning more.


Totally believable... during the winter, if I'm not sleeping, I'm drinking more alcoholic beverages than on average due to all the holiday parties and DEFINITELY over eating! My poor liver.


----------



## method89 (Jun 10, 2020)

"I agree with the ninja tortoise man"


----------



## Yvonne G (Jun 10, 2020)

mark1 said:


> There was a person I seen post on here that went by “olddog” I believe they raised Galapagos tortoises …… seemed pretty knowledgeable to me ….. they had a similar view in limiting food ……..
> 
> From reading and digesting his stuff , couple things I’ve come to believe
> 
> ...


All of these points are something to think about. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.


----------



## mark1 (Jun 10, 2020)

you can use google scholar and search hepatic lipidosis in reptiles and probably find what your looking for .....

here's a pdf on what it is . i understand it is a common diagnosis , and my feeling is a very minute amount of dead reptiles are diagnosed ...... if it's common in the few that are diagnosed , i don't see much reason to not think it's common overall ...

http://www.amasquefa.com/uploads/138._HEPATIC_LIPIDOSIS_IN_REPTILES238.pdf


----------



## KarenSoCal (Jun 10, 2020)

I keep tropical fish. Nothing fancy, just a nice 20L community tank.

It's very easy to overfeed fish. Dump in some flakes each morning. It's so cute when they all come front and look at you...dump a little in each evening.

But fish can easily get stopped up and develop bloat, swell up and pinecone, and die a miserable death.

Many aquarists, to prevent this, feed for 5 days. The 6th day they give no food. The 7th day the fish are given a bit of shelled pea, which acts as a mild laxative. Then normal feeding is resumed.

I realize tortoises are not fish. But I think skipping a day of food now and then has merit. 

It's not uncommon for keepers to come to the forum with concern that their tortoises are straining. A day of not adding to that burden can help everything move and clear out.

I've fasted myself. It's refreshing, puts a bounce in my step, and eliminates that "walking in molasses" feel.

If it's beneficial for fish and me, why not for tortoises?

Having said all that, I did not routinely skip days of feeding my tortoise. But there were days I gave him a smaller serving.


----------



## janevicki (Jun 11, 2020)

mark1 said:


> you can use google scholar and search hepatic lipidosis in reptiles and probably find what your looking for .....
> 
> here's a pdf on what it is . i understand it is a common diagnosis , and my feeling is a very minute amount of dead reptiles are diagnosed ...... if it's common in the few that are diagnosed , i don't see much reason to not think it's common overall ...
> 
> http://www.amasquefa.com/uploads/138._HEPATIC_LIPIDOSIS_IN_REPTILES238.pdf


Thanks for the info on this pdf. I see that overfeeding, stressful environment and chronic stress have been shown to mess up these reptiles. What i see is similar in the human world too. That is why it is important to have our animals in a stress free environment and have them live as natural as possible.


----------



## Oxychan (Apr 25, 2022)

Ruszian Tortoise said:


> I was looking around, and found this link...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I extremely glad I found this forum. 
I didn't know any better when doing research on a tortoise's diet and I thought that it was beneficial since it would kind of make sense that a tortoise's digestive system is much slower than ours; a very* huge* mistake and admittedly a very stupid one on my end. And yes, I did get that (most likely false) information on that site you listed.
I did practice it for quite a while, but after reading most of the comments today, I will now adamantly stand somewhat against this. I'm unsure if it's necessarily "cruel" but I wouldn't really do it anymore. If you feel like you gave it 'too much' then I'd probably give it a smaller portion on some specific days. 
I've had Simon (my tortoise <3) ever since I was eight years old (I am now fifteen years of age.) And I feel extremely guilty for it.


----------

