# A good nights sleep?



## Madkins007 (Mar 17, 2011)

I'm going to blame Balboa for getting me going on another Debatable.

Most of this is based on Red-foots, but I suspect the basics apply to many species.

In the wild, Red-foots are found sleeping in situations that allow them to snuggle down, dig in, wedge themselves in tight spaces, etc.- even if their backs or hindquarters are uncovered. 

I suspect this is done to give them another layer of security. If they are snugged in tight somewhere, they cannot be as easily pulled out by a predator or washed away in a heavy rain. 

Many of these shelters are also about 10f cooler than the outside air. Interestingly, they are also sometimes found floating in flooded burrows- sound asleep! (Moscovitz's dissertation, Vinke's field studies. Sorry, I am at work so cannot easily link to these, however there is info at http://www.tortoiselibrary.com/bibliography.html)

In captivity, we often provide a 'parking garage' hide- a box, half-log, etc. often with no special substrate. Some heat their hides- sometimes with bulbs that give off visible light (red, blue, or 'black'/UVA). Sometimes, we even open the hides to get the tortoises out for some reason.

I have been wondering how restful this really is? If we ask a human to sleep in the garage without bedding or blankets, they would probably not get a real restful sleep.

Kruger's Moist Root Shelter (see the bibliography above) offers snugness by having sloping sides the tortoises can wedge into. I've been playing with bark 'lean-to' shelters, debris piles, and other shelters that offer the torts a chance to wedge themselves into, and they seem to prefer these kinds of hides to the more open boxes I had been using.

But- this is just my experience so far. I have not seen any studies done, any trials using more tortoises, etc. 

Thoughts?


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## Kristina (Mar 17, 2011)

My only issue with what you are saying is this - 

Again, with the black lights. Incandescent black light bulbs do NOT give off UVA, any more than a regular incandescent bulb. They are merely colored glass. If we are talking florescent, then yes, there is UVA production.


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 17, 2011)

I use black light bulbs at night for heat...and I had noticed how my tortoises wedged themselves in tight to sleep. I have not read a study on it, and basically know nothing about it other than all my torts when given the chance cover themselves and wedge themselves in tight to sleep. Some are very hard to pull out. I have always given my tortoises a small hide to sleep in simply because I know most burrows and sleeping places are small. So I've just done it that way since I first started keeping tortoises. I know they like to be secure when they sleep...


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## Yvonne G (Mar 17, 2011)

During the summer when my leopards don't go into their shed at night, I can find them under a shrub and all smooshed down into the dirt. It looks like they go back and forth, back and forth (in place) until they have dirt piled up to either side of them.


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## RonHays (Mar 17, 2011)

My Redfoots burrow into the substrate in the hide box. I have a CHE coming in from the top to provide heat. The cypress mulch stays wet and the box is good warm and humid. They love it in there!


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## Balboa (Mar 18, 2011)

LOL

Not sure if I should be happy about instigating thought or concerned that I stir up trouble. I'm sure a little of both.

I have to concur with your thoughts and findings Mark. I've seen that my torts like to nestle and wedge themselves in. I also believe that visible light at night is likely a bad thing, so those red and blue lights are a no-no (except possibly when very dim across the full visible (for torts) spectrum, as even at night in most parts of the world there is just enough light to barely see by, and in fact pitch blackness may be unnaturally scary, that's a whole can of worms in itself).

At present I don't think I provide the ideal kind of hide and have thought about the exact things you're discussing making or are doing. I really like the root hide and would like to use that in future enclosures.

As a sufferer of a chronic sleep disorder I can appreciate all to well the negative long term effects of a bad nights sleep. Its something I think most of us take for granted until we've lost it. 

Its HELL folks.


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## Fernando (Mar 18, 2011)

These last couple nights I've had to place Bert in his box (heat mats, CHE all on a thermostat). I find him in the SAME corner of the yard tucked in the dirt. Although he isn't really heavy to pick up, it gets a little tough grabbing a good hold of him and lifting him out of there. 

A couple of interesting points that can maybe help stir this discussion:

1. This is a new home, so I don't know if he's forgotten where I placed his box

2. Once He's in...he stays in. I hear him shuffle around a bit...but he stays until the sun is out again

3. I opened up the shed door to pull out some yard stuff...while the door was open he walked in and placed himself in the dark corner of the shed and went to sleep. The shed has a concrete floor and it's dark. 

4. I use a red heat bulb on the cooler side of Andy's enclosure (along with a UVB bar in the day) a half burried planting pot and a black heat bulb right over his hide. He walks in on his own every night and snuggles in the cypress and that's it. He's out.

I know I've heard it before but the black or red heat light has never seemed to bother him and I've used both since I've had him. In fact he gives a good yawn every morning so I know he's gotten sleep. 

Before I had the 60 gallon tank I used to place the black heat lamp in a corner...he would walk over and knock out right under it.


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## Marty333 (Mar 18, 2011)

Nova had boycotted her house and has made herself a slope/ditch where she wedges her self into. Maybe they feel safer because they blend in with the ground?? I don't know..


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## Madkins007 (Mar 18, 2011)

kyryah said:


> My only issue with what you are saying is this -
> 
> Again, with the black lights. Incandescent black light bulbs do NOT give off UVA, any more than a regular incandescent bulb. They are merely colored glass. If we are talking florescent, then yes, there is UVA production.



If your incandescent black light bulb makes things glow in the dark, like a white T-shirt glowing purple, then it is throwing off UV light, as per this article- http://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/everyday-innovations/black-light.htm

You may be using a black-coated bulb that is not a 'black light bulb' like they mention in the article, but I've never seen one like that.

About using any form of visible light- black, red, or blue in a tortoise hide...

I KNOW they sleep with it, but how would we know if it is a sound, restful restorative sleep? Researchers say that the blue lights of TVs, computers, cell phones, etc. interfere with human's sleep, but it does not induce insomnia or anything- it just throws us off and adds up over time. If the effects are that subtle but real in humans, how would we see them in tortoises?

To me, this is sort of a 'survive vs. thrive', 'OK vs. GREAT!' thing. We can make perfectly adequate hides easily, but making them great may take a little work.

I have to say, it does seem rather funny that we have millions of pages of info on tortoise diets, and almost nothing on deep, restful, restorative sleep.


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## Fernando (Mar 18, 2011)

Madkins007 said:


> kyryah said:
> 
> 
> > My only issue with what you are saying is this -
> ...



My black light is not one of those. It's almost a very light purple when on...

also it's only turned on at night when he's in his hide. 

The red heat light is on 24/7 but putting out approx 80-83 degrees of heat and 15-16 inches away. 

I'm not too concerned with it disturbing the UV rays cause I've got a power sun in there too. 

But this does make me think, and I might consider purchasing a CHE in the near future for him.


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## terryo (Mar 18, 2011)

I keep a CHE on top of the hides. No light at night. I stuff the hides with moss (Carolina Pet Supply...I love it). They have to dig themselves into the hide. They go all the way to the back of the hide and are surrounded with moss. You can't see them at all. I think they have a great restful sleep, as they are surrounded in soft, warm, moist moss. I do the same thing with my indoor boxies, only I don't use a hide, just the soft, warm, wet moss.


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## Madkins007 (Mar 19, 2011)

fmadrigal said:


> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> > kyryah said:
> ...



The cheap black light bulbs sold to make posters and stuff glow do actually glow a light purple. 

The colored coating on the bulb shifts a big chunk of visible light to the invisible spectrum- UV. In doing this, it also releases a lot of heat. We like this for tortoises- heat and low visible light, but for people trying to light posters, it means a shorter life.


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## CtTortoiseMom (Apr 6, 2011)

I had written a post that no longer applies. Sorry.


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## onarock (Apr 6, 2011)

I dont know about those carport type hides that people put torts in at night or durring the winter or what it takes to properly heat one. I also cant tell you what it takes to make one of those safely comfortable for a tortoise as I suspect heating a box with leaf litter or shrub material could prove dangerous.

However, I can share the behavior of my tortoises.

Most all my hatchlings will prefer to find refuge in the tall grass, this goes for daytime as well.

I have adults that will always sleep in the tall grass (3' or higher) and from time to time I have to pull them out. Let me tell you that this is no easy task. Somehow they manage to tangle themselves in the grass. I have actually broken and uprooted grass while pulling them out.

I have adults that like to hide under bushes. In particular, I have a female that has been going under the same bush every night for who knows how long. Whenever I have to pull her out its nearly impossible. She has made herself a secure place in there (hibiscus). Somehow she has excavated enough dirt away from the shallow roots of this bush and when she settles in she hooks her feet under and around these roots and wedges the front of her shell just under others. She isnt going anywhere.


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## ChiKat (Apr 6, 2011)

Nelson sleeps in his hide but very rarely does he burrow, or sleep snug and tight. The only time he actually burrowed was in his outdoor enclosure when I left him out after the sun went down.
He used to burrow as a hatchling.


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