# My baby cherry head redfoot is not growing



## jax7271 (Feb 3, 2013)

Hello Everyone
My baby cherry head redfoot is not growingâ€¦. whereas my 1 year old rescued cherry seems to be thriving in a separate enclosure with very similar husbandryâ€¦.
Iâ€™ve had him/her for a couple of months and very little progress in weight has been made. According to the breeder he/she should be around 6 months old by now. Originally came to me around 40 grams, 3 weeks ago he was around 47 grams. His weight has been fluctuating a little since then and he is currently 43 grams and 5.7 cm shell length. Two weeks ago, he started going off his foodâ€¦.for the last week or so, I have increased soaks to twice a day and included one carrot baby food soak. He is now eating a little, but seems to be running around eating substrate quite a bit, but eats a little food when in dish. He seems to be walking the wall perimeter and running into things. Friday when I came home from work I found him in a diagonal position against a hide. Yesterday morning I found him laying vertically on the edge of his hell and later upside down in the water dish, which was in the corner of enclosure; I have moved into the middle at this point. It almost seems like he has gone blind. Is there any accurate way to tell this?
Temps are 92 F to 74 F, humidity ranges from 55% to 75 %, substrate is cypress forest floor and sphagnum moss
Lights are zoo med uvb strip (0.5), 50 watt zoo med basking light and a CHE
Enclosure is a tub (14 inches x 30 inches) that is almost entirely closed on the top as we cut holes out of the top for lights
Diet is various greens; endive, escarole, collard, spring mix, various fruits; strawberry, mango, pineapple, treats such as mushrooms , carrots, zoo med pellets softened
Had started small amounts of protein once a week, but when he went off his food, I stopped
Stool is brownish green, but a little softer than it should be; Iâ€™m waiting for a sample to take in for a fecal
Any advice would be appreciated.
Julie


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## wellington (Feb 3, 2013)

I don't know really what to tell you. I would get that stool sample in ASAP. Hopefully someone will be on soon that can give you more advice. Good luck, fingers crossed all turns out okay.


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## mainey34 (Feb 3, 2013)

Really redfoots dont need basking spots. They prefer shaded areas. They dont really need basking either. I noticed mine running into walls after being under his light also. I use a 60 watt household bulb. How close are the bulbs?


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## ascott (Feb 3, 2013)

When you say similar husbandry? Not exact? What I mean is, if they are the same species, they should be offered the same care....

Yes, a tort can lose its eye sight for a variety of reasons, however, if you increase some of the vit a rich foods (sweet potato, carrots and the like) and continue to offer daily soaks then you can possibly stop or correct an eye ailment....before there is blindness.

If your tort is eating the soil; what type of soil are you housing this baby on? I would also suggest to not let the temps fall below 80 if you are running higher humidity in the _entire_ enclosure vs offering a warm humid area or warm humid hide...anything below 80 along with increased humidity will lead to problems.....

Also, size difference plays alot with what line your tort has been generated from....some lines develop into the larger adult tort which means your baby will grow at a faster/larger speed vs a tort that comes from a smaller line of tort....I have here two babies, one is over a year and the other is under a year---the younger one is nearly double the size of the older one....they get equal care, equal environment and no bullying observed at this point...so there is just a difference that can happen based on their line....


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## jax7271 (Feb 3, 2013)

Sorry, they are exact.... Substrate is cypress zoo med forest floor mixed with moss... Both are originally from different places; the rescue had bad shell rot when I got her; she seems to like temps a little lower than the baby and is fed more food... Other than that they are the same; it just seems that the baby hasn't gotten any bigger (weight gain) while the rescue has put on 10 grams in just over a month...


Che is in middle of encl and other build about 6 inches away; I will change to incandescent bulb today


I guess I'm getting a little scared; last week I lost one of my chameleons apparently to a genetic problem and now I am worrying about everybody else


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## mainey34 (Feb 3, 2013)

how far away is your other lighting?


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## jax7271 (Feb 3, 2013)

the other lighting is around 6" away; I've switched the basking light (50 watt) for an incandescent (60 watt)
All lights are around 12 " above substrate....no mesh


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## mainey34 (Feb 3, 2013)

That should work. Does your tort have a hide to get away from the light. When he needs to?


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## jax7271 (Feb 3, 2013)

Yes, he has 2, one at the far end and one closer to the lights; both have moss in them; he also has a small ledge to hide under attached with magnets on the encl wall; temps are around 90 under lights and 80 at other side


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## mainey34 (Feb 3, 2013)

Then he should be good also, try some sweet potatoes...


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## N2TORTS (Feb 3, 2013)

Don't forget about *GENES*.......so much panic goes into effect about growth. If your tort has clear eyes , good skin/muscle tone, no rasps , regular feces....he is just fine!...One thing to remember take a look at human siblingsâ€™ ...not all are the same size, reach puberty at the same time nor have the same intellect. You acquire two sets of genes ...one will show dominance within multi clutch mates. I have one cherry born last July , who is no larger than hatchlings born 7 weeks ago. Many things can happen within the egg.....and usually one or more does not get the perfect nutrients while in development and is basically starved within the egg. We have got to known these as " Runts" .... with what ever animal species produces multi littermates. In the bird world if you are the runt , you are forced out of the nest ( to your demise)so the mother bird may provide food/nutrients to the strongest hatchling. 
"Mother Nature" has ways of keeping things in check and making sure the gene, species will survive.
One of the more fascinating aspects of any animal breeding rather in captivity or in nature ..then us humans come along with "Morals" and screw the whole system up.....

JD~


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## RedfootsRule (Feb 3, 2013)

JD is right...The growth isn't a matter of concern. I have a 9 month hatchling and a 3 month hatchling housed together right now (two that haven't been sold yet)...The 3 month hatchling is caught up to the 9 months, and actually weighs a little bit more. Both are very healthy, good stool, eat their share, active, etc. They all grow differently.
I would try to get the humidity up to 80%+ though. He doesn't have a coil bulb, does he?
Going "off food"....He is a runt. I've had quite a few "runts", they're a little more difficult, but they come out ok in the end. However, why isn't he housed with the other red foot you have? Unless the size difference is 2 inches or more, I would house them together....Commonly, problem eaters/finicky eaters benefit from being housed with others. Some say food competition, some have other theories, but most who raise hatchlings can tell you that it commonly helps finicky eaters. Unless the size difference is substantial, I would house them together.
And on a side-note, about basking...Everyone who has never raised large numbers of hatchlings believes the myth that red foots don't bask, or don't enjoy light....
Its a complete lie.
Anyone who breeds red foots I think can attest to it, hatchlings DO bask. Quite a lot, in fact. Adults bask a LOT. During the winter (now) my red foots spend about 70% of their waking day basking...In the forest...perhaps they don't. Do we really have a clue? Nope. So a basking spot of 90-95 should always be provided....The ambient temp in the hatchling enclosure is 82-84, and they still will gather under the basking spot often. It helps them digest....So don't take off your basking lamp. It won't have a thing to do with the problem.


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## MasterOogway (Feb 3, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> JD is right...The growth isn't a matter of concern. I have a 9 month hatchling and a 3 month hatchling housed together right now (two that haven't been sold yet)...The 3 month hatchling is caught up to the 9 months, and actually weighs a little bit more. Both are very healthy, good stool, eat their share, active, etc. They all grow differently.
> I would try to get the humidity up to 80%+ though. He doesn't have a coil bulb, does he?
> Going "off food"....He is a runt. I've had quite a few "runts", they're a little more difficult, but they come out ok in the end. However, why isn't he housed with the other red foot you have? Unless the size difference is 2 inches or more, I would house them together....Commonly, problem eaters/finicky eaters benefit from being housed with others. Some say food competition, some have other theories, but most who raise hatchlings can tell you that it commonly helps finicky eaters. Unless the size difference is substantial, I would house them together.
> And on a side-note, about basking...Everyone who has never raised large numbers of hatchlings believes the myth that red foots don't bask, or don't enjoy light....
> ...



Can this be said for tortoises on general .. I am concerned I have a runt too but he is a Leo .


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## RedfootsRule (Feb 3, 2013)

The runt comment...Yes. Its like JD said; happens with pretty much all animals. I've had it with several puppies, tons of kittens, couple baby birds...and tortoises. Of all the "runt" torts I've had, only one has died, and I'm convinced that he had other issues. Usually, they are a little finicky of eating, and just take a few bites...They grow slow....But they make it.


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## MasterOogway (Feb 3, 2013)

Thank you those words are comforting.


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## mainey34 (Feb 3, 2013)

Redfootsrule....if you had read her post, you would have read that she has seperate enclosures. Everything i have ever read has told me that redfoots do not need basking spots. They do not require it. I choose not to use this method. When i used this method and my redfoot was walking into walls i discontinued it. So which is safer? That is my clue...


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## RedfootsRule (Feb 3, 2013)

mainey34 said:


> Redfootsrule....if you had read her post, you would have read that she has seperate enclosures. Everything i have ever read has told me that redfoots do not need basking spots. They do not require it. I choose not to use this method. When i used this method and my redfoot was walking into walls i discontinued it. So which is safer? That is my clue...



I believe I addressed she has separate enclosures, and that was not the point.
If you felt that was directed at you, don't. I was trying to clear up this common myth. 99% of what we read tells us sulcatas will die of pneumonia when given humidity; I can only think of about...5? care sheets for red foots I've ever read even remotely correct (yes, there is more, but the majority are wrong)...Its not true. My opinion is based on my experience of raising several hundred hatchlings, not what I read on the internet that the writer had heard from someone somewhere who read something...Basking spots are beneficial, never harmful. Do they "require" it? No, and I doubt they require a huge varied diet of weeds, greens, veggies and fruits. But I give it to them anyway. Another "Best Practices" thing. And walking into walls does NOT have to do with a basking spot. A basking spot is an area with a higher temperature...Walking into walls COULD be caused from the light fixture being to close. Even then, I doubt it.
What you read tells you that red foots originate in deep forests. While possibly true for hatchlings, its not as much for adults. Do hatchlings bask in the wild? We don't have a CLUE. As far as I know, a hatchling red foot has never even been found. And they never will. But captivity is unnatural; their behavior is totally altered. So, just because they MIGHT not bask in the wild, doesn't mean they don't bask in captivity...

Basking is good. I addressed that particular comment because I'm tired of seeing the myth circulate to new owners, when its preventing them from doing something beneficial...I'm not arguing. I'm correcting information.
Have a good day .


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## N2TORTS (Feb 3, 2013)

Now lets be nice everyone â€¦.. I â€™m sure ( hope ) he read the OPâ€™s story hence his answer. I agree with him somewhat as I do find my adults â€œ baskingâ€ in morning sunshine for a short time ( like many reptiles these is a typical thermo-regulation process). Although I think we need to stress what â€œ weâ€ call basking. Also the outcomes of keeping tortoises outside in a close to possible natural environment is much different than keeping one in a tank, tort table what ever means you contain your tortoise in, along with artificial and constant interrupted light intervals. Letâ€™s start with basking â€¦. True- RFâ€™s in general do not typically find themselves out laying in the sun ( which comes to mind when I hear basking) most of the time itâ€™s near a rock structure , corner of wall ectâ€¦..this is for two reasons â€¦ the main reason is the radiant heat that comes off of these structures, it provides even more warmth. Second is to have a place to escape â€¦.and or blend in without being out in the open. When I hear the term â€œ baskingâ€ I think of Red Ear sliders sitting on the log in the pond , catching rays for hours on end â€¦ until you spook them â€¦then off the edge into the water. I have owned larger torts such as Sulllies , DTâ€™s ,Leos and will agree they tend to favor the â€œ sun spotsâ€ more .. But again .. Not just lay out in direct sunlight for hours on end. (tortoises do over heat very rapidly) 
JD~


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## mainey34 (Feb 3, 2013)

I and i am just stating facts of my experiences. So if you dont believe that walking into walls was an effect from a basking light that was not too close, hmmm... then what else could it be if i removed the basking bulb and put a reg. 60 watt bulb in and was fine after that ?


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## N2TORTS (Feb 3, 2013)

Psssssss....... if you were kept in a Square area say a 6'x6' room . Trust me .... you would be walking into walls too! ...

You make a good point here ... one I also try to avoid ,,,,Square walls with right angles, clear glass . Both of these your tort will learn very rapidly and most of the time cause pacing and excessive stress.


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## mainey34 (Feb 3, 2013)

N2TORTS said:


> Psssssss....... if you were kept in a Square area say a 6'x6' room . Trust me .... you would be walking into walls too! ...
> 
> You make a good point here ... one I also try to avoid ,,,,Square walls with right angles, clear glass . Both of these your tort will learn very rapidly and most of the time cause pacing and excessive stress.


Lol, i understand this. But he is only in his tank at night till 10 am then back in for lunch for 30 min. Then back in at night so he gets lights in his enclosure probably 2-3 hours. This happened directly after taking him out in the morning. I wanted to see if the basking bulb would do anything for him...sure did...it was only a 50 watt basking bulb...


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## ascott (Feb 3, 2013)

> myth that red foots don't bask, or don't enjoy light....
> Its a complete lie.



I have four of the little buggers here (ranging in size from 3-4 inches to 8-9 inches)....each and every one of them take their turns at playing rug and stretching out and laying directly under the basking/heat spot for long periods of time--both in the am and again just before day lights out and night heat lights on....as well as they sprawl out on sunny days while in their outdoor enclosures.....

So, I have to agree that in my limited experience with this particular species.....they all do seek out the basking spot---and lay there for some time sleeping, until of course they get all toasty and then they move to a variety of other spots....


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## theelectraco (Feb 3, 2013)

ascott said:


> I have four of the little buggers here (ranging in size from 3-4 inches to 8-9 inches)....each and every one of them take their turns at playing rug and stretching out and laying directly under the basking/heat spot for long periods of time--both in the am and again just before day lights out and night heat lights on....as well as they sprawl out on sunny days while in their outdoor enclosures.....
> 
> So, I have to agree that in my limited experience with this particular species.....they all do seek out the basking spot---and lay there for some time sleeping, until of course they get all toasty and then they move to a variety of other spots....



Mine also basks daily.


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## ascott (Feb 3, 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs99lRDf6CI

Okay, so this vid is a bit off topic but is really great for a smile (JD and Peter---I hope this makes you both smile )


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## jax7271 (Feb 4, 2013)

I am taking info from all replies and trying to work out what is best for my little guy.... This morning he was upside down in his enclosure again; I soaked him and fed him (he ate a little) and he is still running around although I weighed him again and he is down to 41 grams...I have taken out anything that might cause a rollover in even the slightest way
I have them in separate enclosures because the bigger one is 152 grams and the little one 41 and the bigger one was a new rescue so I put them in different spaces.
I'm wondering if there is any way to tell if he is blind as all these things have never happened before...running into things, flipping, eating substrate, etc. 
We have a reptile vet in town, but they are more educated in lizards such as iguanas then tortoises, so I'm not sure they know very much about turtles and tortoise


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## RedfootsRule (Feb 4, 2013)

jax7271 said:


> I am taking info from all replies and trying to work out what is best for my little guy.... This morning he was upside down in his enclosure again; I soaked him and fed him (he ate a little) and he is still running around although I weighed him again and he is down to 41 grams...I have taken out anything that might cause a rollover in even the slightest way
> I have them in separate enclosures because the bigger one is 152 grams and the little one 41 and the bigger one was a new rescue so I put them in different spaces.
> I'm wondering if there is any way to tell if he is blind as all these things have never happened before...running into things, flipping, eating substrate, etc.
> We have a reptile vet in town, but they are more educated in lizards such as iguanas then tortoises, so I'm not sure they know very much about turtles and tortoise



I don't know of any way to tell if they are blind, other then just observing their behavior...But honestly, running into things could be just getting to know his boundaries...
Yeah that size difference is to much.
As long as he is eating a small amount, I would just keep an eye on him, keep giving him warm soaks, and he should be fine soon....Sometimes torts act weird. Just ride this one out .


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