# Sulcata overheated while soaking?



## alysciaingram (May 15, 2013)

Has anyone ever overheated their tort while in water? I read on this forum multiple times to not let the water get too cold while soaking my tort. So today I put my 4 month old in his bath like usual, except under his lamp in order to stay warm. He urinated and defecated while I prepared his mazuri and greens mix, did his usual "let me out dance", and when I saw his water was dirty I placed him down on his substrate while I cleaned out the water. I put a kitchen timer on for soaks, and only eleven minutes had passed. When I returned he was foaming at the mouth profusely and gasping, his neck area was also swollen looking. He is responsive, but was somewhat sluggish when I first tried to help him. I placed him in the cool section of his tank, turned his lamp off, and placed a cool, wet paper towel over him and left the lid open to rapidly cool the enclosure. He laid under the paper towel for approximately 30 minutes while in his shell. After that he went into his humid hide and slept for a few hours. I went to check on him after reading on the forum that it was most likely a heat stroke, that they are fatal, and he would probably die within a few hours if he did. I woke him up in order to assess if he was alert and not deceased. He walked around and paced his enclosure for a bit, smelled his food and passed it up, and went back to bed.

If anyone knows, what should I expect from him for the next few weeks? I have a vet appointment for my other tort in a week and a half to do fecals and a general visit since she is new and in quarantine before I introduce her to my other two tortoises. I am going to bring him along on the visit now after today, but don't know if I should just pay the extra money in order to get him assessed as an emergency by the vet sooner rather than later?

Sorry to make a stereotypical "HELP" post, but I would just appreciate any advice in order to best care for my little one. I thought I was doing the right thing today and I feel just terrible about it. :/


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## EricIvins (May 15, 2013)

Sounds more like the animal was drowning than overheating.......





I still don't understand why anyone would want to force soak a Tortoise anymore...


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## Yellow Turtle (May 15, 2013)

EricIvins said:


> Sounds more like the animal was drowning than overheating.......
> 
> I still don't understand why anyone would want to force soak a Tortoise anymore...



Cause that's what everyone is doing and recommend to do?

Please share your thought if you have different opinion and reason of doing that.


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## alysciaingram (May 15, 2013)

The animal was not drowning, the proper amount of water was in the bowl. I would have noticed when I placed the animal in the soak bowl if it was too high. He comfortably sat in the water while I gathered my hay and Mazuri. I am not that negligent. 

And I force soaks because my vet even recommends it until the tortoise is at least 7 inches. She has her own heard of tortoises, and I value her opinion, as she spent a lot of time and money getting her degree.


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## EricIvins (May 15, 2013)

Well, I have experience with Chelonians that are near drowning and what you described is exactly how they look/act. What is the "proper" amount of water? A Tortoise can drown in a 1/4" of water if your not paying attention to them.....


Force soaking is not necessary! Proper hydration is as simple as leaving a ample water source in with the animal and letting it choose when/when not to use it, along with a humidity gradient. It boils down to giving the animals options along with proper husbandry. I also have an education, along with experience keeping a large collection of Turtles/Tortoises. What I post comes from direct knowledge and experience. I'm sure many will back up what I'm saying, but take it for what it is worth to you...


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## Tom (May 15, 2013)

EricIvins said:


> Force soaking is not necessary! Proper hydration is as simple as leaving a ample water source in with the animal and letting it choose when/when not to use it, along with a humidity gradient. It boils down to giving the animals options along with proper husbandry. I also have an education, along with experience keeping a large collection of Turtles/Tortoises. What I post comes from direct knowledge and experience. I'm sure many will back up what I'm saying, but take it for what it is worth to you...




This is NOT true, and its BAD advice. I've called you out many times on this. Not everyone lives in a humid area with lots of rainfall and water everywhere. Not everyone, especially noobs, have an appropriate water source and their tortoises would rather not drink than risk drowning or using a water source they are not comfortable with for whatever reason.

Not soaking may work for YOU, in YOUR area, with YOUR combination of husbandry techniques, but it is not going to work for everyone, everywhere. Someone with your professed level of experience should understand this. A lot of reptiles die of dehydration out here in the dry West. A simple soak once in a while could have saved many of them.



To the OP: 1. This is why thermometers and temp guns are a necessity. What was the temp of the water? What was the temp in the enclosure?

2. It is a mistake to assume that a vet has even the slightest idea what they are talking about based on the two criterion you mentioned. Many supposed "reptile" vets do not know what they are doing and have caused great harm or death. Your vet may be a good one, but I know plenty of vets and vet techs that spent a lot of time and money getting their degrees, have their own reptiles, and still have no clue about how to simply raise a healthy reptile. Sad but true.


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## alysciaingram (May 15, 2013)

The water never exceeds past his plastron. Most of the time he relaxes and enjoys his soaks. He never drinks from his water dish, and I don't believe that any living animal does not need water. I also did the dry method with my older sulcata, only offering water in her enclosure and she is pyramided badly. Only now that I have been soaking her also has she begun to smooth out.

I hope you're not taking offense to what I am saying. You're coming off as crass and offended. I know the animal was not drowning. There is no possible way unless he dunked his head under and held it there without realizing he needed to resurface. Is that possible?


Tom, the temperature in the water I'm unsure of, but it was baby warm temp, nothing unusual, and I soak my little ones daily. This has never happened before. The temperature where I placed my tort was registered at 86. I believe the water got too hot and over heated him, but every thread is "I left my sulcata out in the sun too long and they were foamin". I don't know if it's even possible or if it ingested something before the soak and I didn't realize it was foaming until after when he was placed out of the water? I feel crazy.. I really do.

I have one of those radar temp guns. I will buy a probe tomorrow to more accurately temp. Thanks.


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## Yellow Turtle (May 15, 2013)

I really think your water level is too low if it doesn't even exceed his plastron...

I read a lot of things here, and that's how Eric replies to everythings. I don't think he feels offended and neither should we.


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## alysciaingram (May 16, 2013)

Ironically enough I was worried that by placing too much water in his soak would drown or injure him.

On the bright side I think I cooled him off it time. He's alert and active today. He usually goes out into the enclosure to graze but I'm going to leave him in his tank in order to keep an eye on anything unusual. Thanks for the replies.

Tom, you had a good influence on my choice of vet. I wrote down a care list and pretty much interviewed them before choosing one for my animals. I also bought my temp probe today and am going to be more diligent about assessing my temps before hand to prevent this from happening again. I also scanned the enclosure for anything that I may have over looked even though I was researched everything before it went in the ground. I don't think it was anything toxic unless it was a bug.

Anyone else have any guesses? Or is overheating the culprit.


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## Millerlite (May 16, 2013)

I would say be was not drowning tortoises even young ones are smart enough to not drown themselves. He might if hot a little hot with the combination of the light and warm water. As long as he's alright now, learn from it. I wouldn't put the dish under the light just do it away from heat sources, the water will cool but that takes more the. 10-15 mins. Even if it feels cool it's probably not as cool as you think.

Also soaking is still a practice and I haven't heard of it being old school or not done anymore. With young animals I soak them an actually dont have a water dish in the enclosure. For the first few months. This is because I rather regulate and know he goes into the water, some babies won't ever touch the water. As far as a tortoises drowing with the water so low.. Like I said idk about that. I know he said a tortoise can drown without watching him soak, but if you have a water dish in your enclosure what stops him from drowing when your not watching? It sounds like it got a little. Warm, I would keep up on the soaks personally just 10 mins works enough for the tortoises to drink and warm up, also helps trigger eatin and popping.


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## EricIvins (May 16, 2013)

Tom said:


> EricIvins said:
> 
> 
> > Force soaking is not necessary! Proper hydration is as simple as leaving a ample water source in with the animal and letting it choose when/when not to use it, along with a humidity gradient. It boils down to giving the animals options along with proper husbandry. I also have an education, along with experience keeping a large collection of Turtles/Tortoises. What I post comes from direct knowledge and experience. I'm sure many will back up what I'm saying, but take it for what it is worth to you...
> ...



So you're telling me that without proper husbandry, these animals will shrivel up and pyramid? I'll call BS on that any day.....

Again, proper husbandry means access to water at all times, and A PROPER HUMIDITY GRADIENT!!! THIS IS PROPER HUSBANDRY!! It doesn't matter whether you are in Florida, California, or Mars! So you've called me out on what? Something you preach about every day on this forum?

Anyway, the fact of the matter is the Tortoises know what water is, and how to utilize it is an enclosure. They are not stupid, and they've been around longer than we have. However, a hatchling should never have access to more than a 1/4" of water. That is plenty deep enough for the animal to drink and/or soak if it feels the need. And yes, I have had hatchlings drown in water just a 1/2" deep.....


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## wellington (May 16, 2013)

Erica, I think if your way works for you, that's great. I only think that if you are going to tell members, specially new ones that they don't need to soak their tortoise, you should give all the details of exactly how you raise then, house them, and the relative humidity that is not only in your enclosures, but where you live. When exact details are not given, some will think they can do whatever it is their doing and stop the soaks. That could be dangerous for the tort. Soaking is a simple, very little time consumer of a safety net. I don't think it should be told to anyone that you don't need to soak, unless you know their exact husbandry and location, or you give the details as I stated above. As for me, well you all probably know I am probably Toms number one fan, so i will stick with his way and i will pass it on until my last breath. Now that said, please don't let this get into a heated name calling debate.
To the OP, it sounds to me like over heating. I soak my leopard in the bathroom sink. I clean it first, without any chemicals and when the water gets too cold, I release the drain and refill. What's nice, poop and pee down the drain. 
Thanks in advance guys for not crossing the line


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## LeoCraze (May 16, 2013)

Who is Erica?!! I'm pretty sure it's Eric...

Soaking is not absolutely necessary. True. The biggest downside is that your tortoise might drown. Also True. These are all valid points. 

What we can all agree on is that proper hydration is necessary, especially in a foreign, captive and artificial environment. However, what we have to take into consideration is that achieving the proper hydration and humidity gradient via the enclosure is difficult for n00bs, and soaking is a lot easier. Of course, you have to deal with the consequences if you don't do it properly.

I soak mine, but I also keep an eye on them, plus I place an above water-line platform with gradient slope, sort of like the ones you have for turtles. This achieves a couple of things. Primarily, I make sure that they are hydrated, forced or not. But it also ensures that they poop mostly outside of their sleeping quarters and reduces the maintenance time on my part. And, this cleans them, which is of course not necessary, but I like to keep mine clean.

Anyways, at the end of the day, it boils down to what works for you and what you have to show for it. So, let's see what tortoises Eric raised from hatchlings using his method and what Tom has to show for his method.


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## wellington (May 16, 2013)

LeoCraze said:


> Who is Erica?!! I'm pretty sure it's Eric...



OOPS, either my ipad did it or I did, not sure. Sorry Eric


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## LeoCraze (May 16, 2013)

Eric, this is probably a typo, because it's not BS. Without "proper husbandry" the animals will not only shrivel up and pyramid, but they will die. I think you meant "soaking" rather than "proper husbandry".


EricIvins said:


> So you're telling me that without proper husbandry, these animals will shrivel up and pyramid? I'll call BS on that any day.....


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## Yellow Turtle (May 16, 2013)

I think I've seen Eric's turtles, but I don't remember seeing his torts. Of course, I'd love to see them all, including the enclosure of course.


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## Millerlite (May 16, 2013)

I stop soaking when my guys get a little older, and I know my guys use the water dishes I see them in there all the time. But when I have hartcings I tend to soak them just so I know they get water, some species are stubborn and water will be in the enclosure but they won't ever see or touch it.


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## Jacqui (May 16, 2013)

EricIvins said:


> Proper hydration is as simple as leaving a ample water source in with the animal and letting it choose when/when not to use it, along with a humidity gradient. It boils down to giving the animals options along with proper husbandry.



Ahhh but Eric, doing it your way means more work, more forethought, then just forcing the tortoise into a soak when the human feels it's the right time and for as long as the human thinks is needed. 


Main things here is how is the little guy doing? Is he showing any problems at all?


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## EricIvins (May 16, 2013)

Jacqui said:


> EricIvins said:
> 
> 
> > Proper hydration is as simple as leaving a ample water source in with the animal and letting it choose when/when not to use it, along with a humidity gradient. It boils down to giving the animals options along with proper husbandry.
> ...





Yay! Someone gets it...


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## alysciaingram (May 17, 2013)

My tort is doing well. He was still a little lethargic this morning so he went to the vet today. The vet advised not to put him under his lamp during soakings, and to not do as many per week (she said 4 times a week was sufficient for him) but he has been eating and grazing both yesterday and today, sunning for a little bit today, and has been slowly doing his normal routine. 




He's a little camera shy but is doing okay. No runny nose or watery eyes. Making bowel movements, and the vet said I cooled him off quickly enough, now just to make sure he is watched more carefully in the next few weeks to prevent it from happening again because he's more susceptible.

Thanks for the responses.


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## Jacqui (May 17, 2013)

Glad to hear he is doing okay!!


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## skottip (May 17, 2013)

I soak my tortoises all the time, especially hatchlings. I have devised a small snorkle and facemask I put on them first so there is no chance of drowning.
My aldabras wear full face gear and they love the swimming pool!.
I actually taught my oldest Aldabra to dive for lobster in the Florida Keys. That is unless his motorcycle gets a flat on the way down...


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## wellington (May 17, 2013)

skottip said:


> I soak my tortoises all the time, especially hatchlings. I have devised a small snorkle and facemask I put on them first so there is no chance of drowning.
> My aldabras wear full face gear and they love the swimming pool!.
> I actually taught my oldest Aldabra to dive for lobster in the Florida Keys. That is unless his motorcycle gets a flat on the way down...



WHAT? I know this isn't serious, but so what's the point? I don't get it. Of course if you were being serious, know one would believe you without pics


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## alysciaingram (May 17, 2013)

I want to go lobster diving with this amazing tortoise...


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## skottip (May 17, 2013)

I will post pics tomorrow.
He is out on a date now....
Some hussy of a Spur Thigh.


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## waterboy (May 17, 2013)

all the small torts i soak can all swim very well and thats how they get around in the wild in the flooded marsh areas. I think it is just stupid not to soak and even worse to tell other people not to. If you dont know what your talking about keep it to yourself.


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## bigred (May 17, 2013)

waterboy said:


> all the small torts i soak can all swim very well and thats how they get around in the wild in the flooded marsh areas. I think it is just stupid not to soak and even worse to tell other people not to. If you dont know what your talking about keep it to yourself.



Thank you, someone finally gets it


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## sibi (May 17, 2013)

OP, I believe your tort overheated under his lamp. Since I soak my torts in a big plastic basket while I'm preparing their food, I'm always watching them during their soaks. As when humans overheat, torts need to replace the minerals they lost because of the heating. If it ever happens again, and even now since he's still not back to his full self, I would soak him in some pedialite that you can buy in Walgreens or WalMart. It gives them the vitamins and trace minerals that they lost when overheated. It's always a good idea to have some around for cases when there's extreme heat and not enough humidity. Glad to hear your tort is getting better.


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## alysciaingram (May 18, 2013)

Thanks Sibi, I will definitely give that a try.


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## jaizei (May 18, 2013)

waterboy said:


> all the small torts i soak can all swim very well and thats how they get around in the wild in the flooded marsh areas. I think it is just stupid not to soak and even worse to tell other people not to. If you dont know what your talking about keep it to yourself.



I think 'it is just stupid' to dismiss ideas that you do not agree with by saying that they are stupid. I also think this type of attitude is why so many do not participate on this forum. Everyone is free to share their opinion, experiences, etc. If you do not agree, then make a convincing argument about why you do not agree. I don't think 'It's stupid' or insults cut it as an argument. 





sibi said:


> OP, I believe your tort overheated under his lamp. Since I soak my torts in a big plastic basket while I'm preparing their food, I'm always watching them during their soaks. As when humans overheat, torts need to replace the minerals they lost because of the heating. If it ever happens again, and even now since he's still not back to his full self, I would soak him in some pedialite that you can buy in Walgreens or WalMart. It gives them the vitamins and trace minerals that they lost when overheated. It's always a good idea to have some around for cases when there's extreme heat and not enough humidity. Glad to hear your tort is getting better.



How do tortoises lose minerals because of the heating? Humans do so because of sweating, which tortoises do not do.


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## Tom (May 18, 2013)

*[split] Sulcata overheated while soaking?*



waterboy said:


> all the small torts i soak can all swim very well and thats how they get around in the wild in the flooded marsh areas. I think it is just stupid not to soak and even worse to tell other people not to. If you dont know what your talking about keep it to yourself.



Sorry Jaizei, I have to agree with this. I think its stupid too. No one, including Eric, has time to sit and watch all their tortoises, in every enclosure, all day long and make sure that every one of them is drinking as much as they should. Of course we should leave water out for them, provide the correct environmental conditions, and hope all goes well, but soaking is a way to INSURE that your tortoise is well hydrated, and it is ESPECIALLY important in drier climates like here and AZ, or anywhere in the country where a tortoise is housed primarily indoors, in an open topped enclosure, with desiccating heat in the winter and A/C in the summer.

I see my tortoises drinking every once in a while. No idea how often they drink when I'm not looking. They too know where their water source is and what to do with it. Still it does NO harm to occasionally soak them, and it insures that they are never dehydrated. There are so many reasons a tortoise might not drink, or might not drink enough. I believe "stupid" is a good descriptive word for making any case AGAINST soaking. I can see where it is less necessary in a humid area with lots of rainfall all year long and adult tortoises that are housed outdoors with unlimited access to all the rain and resulting puddles, but to advise everyone, everywhere in the world, with every age and housing situation to NOT soak is frankly and obviously stupid advice.


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## bigred (May 18, 2013)

Tom said:


> waterboy said:
> 
> 
> > all the small torts i soak can all swim very well and thats how they get around in the wild in the flooded marsh areas. I think it is just stupid not to soak and even worse to tell other people not to. If you dont know what your talking about keep it to yourself.
> ...



Tom I would have to agree 100% ESPECIALLY WHEN TORTOISES ARE SMALL AND FRAGILE


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## GeoGpp1012 (May 18, 2013)

I did a double take when I saw someone suggesting not to soak ...it hurts none at all if n
Done properly and the benefits in my mind heavily outweigh the risks. I personally see no risks if done correctly. This situation sounds like a fluke accident and I'm happy to hear the tort is doing better and recovering. I agree completely with Tom that giving advice such as not to soak without giving specific reasons why this individual doesn't was in my eyes extremely detrimental to torts everywhere with owners who may read that and think they could be more lax with their tortoise and skip soaks that are an ESSENTIAL part of proper tortoise husbandry. I keep a thermometer probe in my tortoises water to monitor the temperature. I place my tortoise in the water at 100 F and leave him in the water til I read the temperature at 88 to 89 F.


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## LeoCraze (May 18, 2013)

So where is the tort-off? We need to see Eric's tortoises. I've seen the results of Tom's proven method, not just from Tom, but replicated by people, around the world, who follow the simple method.

Frankly, so far, I've not seen a case of captive tortoise, raised from hatchling and not soaked, but has as a healthy looking shell as the ones produced by Tom's method. Granted, I've not seen every CB tortoise in the world, so I'm curious to know. What we have here are two "extreme" views for raising hatchlings: 1. soak everyday (with water source and humidity inside enclosure) 2. No soak at all (with water source and humidity inside enclosure).

Again, I'm opened-mind, so I'd like to see some result from Eric's method, validated by tortoises raised from hatchlings. Again, a tort-off!


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## Jacqui (May 18, 2013)

First off, I want to highly praise Eric for having the belief in his way of doing something to publicly state it in this forum, which tends to think tortoise keeping is a one way fits all thing. It is not. I am also terribly disappointed in those who think if it is not being done their way, then it is "stupid". 

I also happen to agree with Eric. I think we over soak our poor tortoises. It is one thing to soak a sick animal, a new animal, one who may be dehydrated, or a very young one. Wonder why all these years tortoises have had enough sense to know their own needs, but suddenly we humans think they are totally ignorant of what they need and only we humans know what is best for them. If we are providing them with the proper environmental needs, which includes not constantly cooking them, then why are we so fearful of them not being hydrated enough? I do understand taking the easy way out and doing a soak rather then working on making your enclosure correct, that is human nature after all. The belief it won't hurt them, may also not be correct. There are some folks who believe too much soaking is pushing food through the tortoise's system at a faster rate then nature intended, which could cause their own health risks. Just not enough studies done to know for sure. Plus it may have a more dangerous effect on one animal or species then the next. Are we also blind to the fact that tortoises die from being soaked and left, as this one almost tragically was? I guess the lost of those tortoises do not count, huh? 

I think if it makes you feel good about your care of your tortoise, then go ahead and soak him or her every day if it's what it takes. I won't tell you your behavior is "stupid", as some seem to have to do with those who do not agree with them. I think (as I always say) you need to do what works for you, your tortoise, and your situation. It would be egotistical for me (or any person) to think you have to do things my way. Just remember to keep an open mind, to realize we all can have different things and styles, yet in the end will and can get to the same goal... healthy tortoises.

Just my personal thoughts and a gold star to Eric. To the OP, an apology because none of us (except maybe Sibi and another one or two) actually answered the question you were asking. Instead we have made it into another one of our heated debates. I am so glad to know it seems he was lucky and escaped without problems.


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## jaizei (May 18, 2013)

h


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## LeopardTortLover (May 18, 2013)

I agree jacqui, each to their own. As long as their own raises happy healthy tortoises


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## alysciaingram (May 18, 2013)

I do want to state to everyone that I by no means just sit my tortoise in water and don't pay attention. I try my hardest with them, and I want what's best for them. I'm recovering from a medical condition so they are my form of therapy while I'm recovering. They make me get up in the morning, do physical activities, and provide a routine. All my supplies are right next to the area where I soak(in my patio) and I honestly never meant to harm the tort by soaking it under the lamp. I wasn't offended by the various points of view, as everyone has an opinion.

Thank you Jaqui for asking for my torts well being. He's so much better today. Eating, grazing, sunning, acting his normal self. I wouldn't have even posted the thread if it wasn't just so bizarre to me that it happened when many people on the forum suggested it. Now, based on my experience, I will adamantly suggest against placing the tort under a lamp during soaking, if they feel the need to do so or not. Regardless I do thank you all for the responses and advice. I am trying very hard to provide the proper husbandry for my animals who are more to me than just pets.


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## wellington (May 18, 2013)

alysciaingram said:


> I do want to state to everyone that I by no means just sit my tortoise in water and don't pay attention. I try my hardest with them, and I want what's best for them. I'm recovering from a medical condition so they are my form of therapy while I'm recovering. They make me get up in the morning, do physical activities, and provide a routine. All my supplies are right next to the area where I soak(in my patio) and I honestly never meant to harm the tort by soaking it under the lamp. I wasn't offended by the various points of view, as everyone has an opinion.
> 
> Thank you Jaqui for asking for my torts well being. He's so much better today. Eating, grazing, sunning, acting his normal self. I wouldn't have even posted the thread if it wasn't just so bizarre to me that it happened when many people on the forum suggested it. Now, based on my experience, I will adamantly suggest against placing the tort under a lamp during soaking, if they feel the need to do so or not. Regardless I do thank you all for the responses and advice. I am trying very hard to provide the proper husbandry for my animals who are more to me than just pets.



I don't think anyone was trying to say you weren't doing the best for your torts, at least I hope they didn't mean that and I am so sorry it you took any post that way. Also, it's good to post things like this. It's a learning tool for all of us. As passionate as you are about your torts, so are the majority of the members and little discussions like this will sometimes come about, also a good learning tool.
Glad things are better with your little one. Looks like you did the right thing in a very quick manner




Jacqui said:


> First off, I want to highly praise Eric for having the belief in his way of doing something to publicly state it in this forum, which tends to think tortoise keeping is a one way fits all thing. It is not. I am also terribly disappointed in those who think if it is not being done their way, then it is "stupid".
> 
> I also happen to agree with Eric. I think we over soak our poor tortoises. It is one thing to soak a sick animal, a new animal, one who may be dehydrated, or a very young one. Wonder why all these years tortoises have had enough sense to know their own needs, but suddenly we humans think they are totally ignorant of what they need and only we humans know what is best for them. If we are providing them with the proper environmental needs, which includes not constantly cooking them, then why are we so fearful of them not being hydrated enough? I do understand taking the easy way out and doing a soak rather then working on making your enclosure correct, that is human nature after all. The belief it won't hurt them, may also not be correct. There are some folks who believe too much soaking is pushing food through the tortoise's system at a faster rate then nature intended, which could cause their own health risks. Just not enough studies done to know for sure. Plus it may have a more dangerous effect on one animal or species then the next. Are we also blind to the fact that tortoises die from being soaked and left, as this one almost tragically was? I guess the lost of those tortoises do not count, huh?
> 
> ...



I agree with this, except, I don't think someone should just come out and say don't soak without explaining in detail, how they do their husbandry to be able to not soak. Also, like requested a couple times, why haven't we seen his torts???? If it were me, I would be posting a lot of pics to show my point of view.


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## LeoCraze (May 18, 2013)

Great to hear that the tortoise is doing okay. Exactly why it happened is not so clear, but the adjustments seem reasonable. Raising tortoise is a learning process, having inputs from others is a big help but by no means definitive, since there are so many factors involved and we don't speak tortoise.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I do believe that it is important to others to not just state something without evidence. Yes, it is important to be polite, civil, and PC, but at the end of the day, to be truly helpful, we need some results.

Another advantage of soaking the young tortoise is to ensure that they get fresh clean water every time, not some polluted stale water. If the tortoises decide to soak themselves during the middle of the night in a water dish, that water is probably not very pleasant to drink afterwards and you won't be able to change it until much much later.

Again, soaking works for me, but I want to see some pictures of tortoises from people who never soak theirs. Please share this experience.


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## jaizei (May 18, 2013)

wellington said:


> Jacqui said:
> 
> 
> > First off, I want to highly praise Eric for having the belief in his way of doing something to publicly state it in this forum, which tends to think tortoise keeping is a one way fits all thing. It is not. I am also terribly disappointed in those who think if it is not being done their way, then it is "stupid".
> ...



I think this is taking it a bit too far. I haven't seen anything to suggest that Eric is misleading anyone.


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## GeoGpp1012 (May 18, 2013)

I'm very happy to hear your tort is doing well  I also think its great that you shared this experience with us so that we could learn from it and share ( what makes this forum great).

I just wanted to say that I'd never put anyone down for an idea that contradicts my own but the reason I respect members such as Tom is because they have taken so much time and put so much effort in producing happy healthy torts and he openly admits his past errors in husbandry. His past mistakes led him to experiment and learn. He has in many threads showed his methods and has helped us all move towards some of the healthiest tortoises I've seen in years in captivity. I see his methods and his results. He had covered all his bases in proving why his method works.

So I APPLAUD Tom. I do not applaud someone who goes against proven results and contradicts them without showing the rest his reasons and exactly what goes into his husbandry. A blank statement telling us not to do something without further explanation is very irresponsible. 

And telling people that "we humans know what's best" or nonsense like that is not a valid reason. We dont think we know whats best but we do know and see results. We have seen that tortoises being hydrated makes an extreme difference as do 10-15 or even 20 plus minute soaks. People on this forum can't perfectly mimic a natural environment but they try.


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## wellington (May 18, 2013)

jaizei said:


> wellington said:
> 
> 
> > Jacqui said:
> ...



I took the one line out. I don't agree with you, but I don't really care if its there or not.


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## Jacqui (May 18, 2013)

alysciaingram said:


> I do want to state to everyone that I by no means just sit my tortoise in water and don't pay attention.



I know I myself did not take it as you were a negligent keeper, nor do I want you to take my comments as such. If you did, then I am sorry. I do know how those "just for a second" back turns can lead to a lot longer times then ever dreamed of. I know I have lost temporarily several turtles and tortoises from having them outside in non secure areas because I was going to be watching closely and then something distracts me. Amazing how good those guys are at knowing when to make a dash for it and how well they can camouflage into their surroundings. 




wellington said:


> Also, like requested a couple times, why haven't we seen his torts???? If it were me, I would be posting a lot of pics to show my point of view.



I think you answered your own question, because he isn't you. The nice thing about a forum like this is EVERYBODY can share only as much as they want to. Some folks post every time their tortoise opens it's eyes. That's fine. Some of us (me included) very seldom share pictures. I can't speak for Eric, but I just don't like to take them and never think they come out well, be it my tortoises, my dogs, my children, whatever. Part of it my be my own personal aversion to having my own picture taken. Who knows and who cares. Nobody in here is required to show anything or even share anything in here and they should not be pressured to do so.


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