# Huge quarantine scare



## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 13, 2019)

Why does this have to be said? It's your fault when you don't quarantine.

One, among many, good things about my W2 job is that I can talk to people on the phone when my tasking can be run with muscle memory. I get to talk to chelonian people all over the US.

A recent conversation with a friend brought out the need for quarantine and the nightmare that can come from the “nobody really does it” point of view. That day job, where I get to talk with people is in a lab with model organisms and serious disease processes, so for me it is not secondary, but primary to keep in mind what order I do my work in, wearing PPE (personal protective equipment), and basically working with things/stuff that come with serious consequences if you get willy-nilly.

The friend wanted a second male tortoise for a colony, to up the reproductive output of her females. BTW, I’ll not mention any specifics in terms of names or species, because the point is to encourage the use of quarantine protocols, not make a an example of a person(s). 

The male seemed low weight for its size, and was somewhat sluggish. It came from a breeder with a good reputation, that has sold many animals to many people, someone I have read many positive reviews on from people who tend to be on the critical side, like myself. It came a bit underweight, that’s the important point. 

But the weight issue became worse, and the male become more sluggish, and eventually my friend took the tortoise to an actual qualified vet. The tortoise was determined to have Intranuclear coccidia. Wow! The dealio is, between when that tortoise arrived at my friends place, and when the disease was sorted out, they had distributed some animals, so now they may or may not be transmitting this somewhat rare disease into other collections. Some of those secondary collections do use quarantine, some don’t, and they have already moved animals from their collections to yet other groups or what could now be a fourth potential wave of disease propagation. All those parties have been notified, and have sought diagnostic help from veterinarians. Here’s another, even worse, outcome – some of those vets have responded, allegedly, that it so rare a disease, that the owner probably need not worry. My friend is forwarding the case file to those other parties, to help wake those vets up.

Quarantine, what exactly is it and how do you do it? In the simplest form a quarantine is a period of time, where the animal is evaluated for diseases. There is not too-long a time. If you are going to have a single pet tortoise, then in a sense it’s whole life will be one of a quarantine status, the evaluation will be somewhat passive, waiting to see if some issue comes up, then acting to resolve it.

A more assertive plan would be to have proactive tests run, the simplest would be fecal exams. But so much that can be nasty diseases won’t show up in fecal, or even a broad spectrum of blood analyses. Many disease only show up when the tortoise is in distress. The good/bad news is when tortoises change habitats (from one owner to another) that is a stress/distress situation, so disease organisms may reveal themselves more readily. Temperatures below appropriate is another stressor that distresses the tortoise such that diseases may be more readily detected. Like all those tortoises that get runny noses when they have been exposed to that unpredicted over night low and they didn’t go into or weren’t put in their night house.

I use the longer more passive approach to quarantine. When new animals come into my collection they may not be paired up or placed with others for a few years. Many times when I get a group of several (like when I got a group of 15 K. erosa), I separated them out into groups of three or four. That way even if something does show up, there is a chance, modest as it may be, that the disease is already somewhat isolated. 

Keeping a new ‘group’ that come from one source, as individuals for a year or two, then reintroducing them to each other for propagation is a good strategy. You get to know each animal for its individual quirks, separation and re-introduction often increases the likelihood of mating activity, and then there is the quarantine thing.

I said I wouldn’t say who the people are, well, now I will. If you are someone who does use a quarantine plan, you might be happy and glad that you go to the trouble, and maybe ever so slightly concerned you have an animal that was mixed up in the collection effected. from my friend You’re not one of the 'who’. On the other hand if you don’t use quarantine even in it’s simplest form and you are worried, then I would be talking about your animals in your care. Now you know the 'who' - it’s you.

If you don’t use a quarantine protocol, then it really is you that endanger your and other collections. Why this person is someone I consider a fiend is because they did not just keep quiet and let the disease transmit as it may. They have fully stepped up and are being transparent to the directly affected people/collections. It would be great if we were all responsible enough to use a quarantine, but if not, being transparent about an issue is a pretty ethical and ‘what’s right is right’ response.

Don't be that person - don't be the 'who' I'm writing about. And know/no Kapidolo Farms was not in this loop


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## ZEROPILOT (Aug 14, 2019)

Thank you


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## Blackdog1714 (Aug 14, 2019)

Thanks


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## Ben02 (Aug 14, 2019)

Kapidolo Farms said:


> Why does this have to be said? It's your fault when you don't quarantine.
> 
> One, among many, good things about my W2 job is that I can talk to people on the phone when my tasking can be run with muscle memory. I get to talk to chelonian people all over the US.
> 
> ...


Very interesting but scary at the same time. One new addition can wipe out an entire group *shudder*. Stress can also cause runny noses in torts aswell. The stress of having a new enclosure and owner really messes with them, quarantine comes in to use here allowing you to evaluate whether the bubbles are stress related or something far more serious.


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## Tom (Aug 14, 2019)

Will?

I love you man...

P.S. This is _exactly_ why I still don't have a male radiata for my girls. And when I finally find a suitable one, it will be months of testing and quarantine before it sets one tortoise foot onto my ranch.


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## jsheffield (Aug 16, 2019)

Quarantine Question #1: I recently added a Russian to my "collection" (the only other tortoise, to date, is a redfoot), to what degree do you enforce a quarantine protocol?

They live in separate enclosures in the same room, my office... is that likely to be a problem?
They get sun on nice days in outside enclosures that share a common wall, but they cannot touch... is that likely to be a problem?

Is that level of separation adequate, too much, not enough?

Quarantine Question #2: I believe both of my tortoises are male and I plan on adding females to each enclosure eventually with an eye towards encouraging breeding... how long of a quarantine is adequate for the newcomers to establish their health, and that they're not a threat to the health of my current tortoises?

Thanks, 

Jamie


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## Ben02 (Aug 16, 2019)

jsheffield said:


> Quarantine Question #1: I recently added a Russian to my "collection" (the only other tortoise, to date, is a redfoot), to what degree do you enforce a quarantine protocol?
> 
> They live in separate enclosures in the same room, my office... is that likely to be a problem?
> They get sun on nice days in outside enclosures that share a common wall, but they cannot touch... is that likely to be a problem?
> ...


I think washing your hands before and after handling each tort and anything they have touched should be ok.


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## ZEROPILOT (Aug 16, 2019)

Ben02 said:


> I think washing your hands before and after handling each tort and anything they have touched should be ok.


Yup
They can share nothing
Even your hands


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## Tom (Aug 16, 2019)

jsheffield said:


> Quarantine Question #1: I recently added a Russian to my "collection" (the only other tortoise, to date, is a redfoot), to what degree do you enforce a quarantine protocol?
> 
> They live in separate enclosures in the same room, my office... is that likely to be a problem?
> They get sun on nice days in outside enclosures that share a common wall, but they cannot touch... is that likely to be a problem?
> ...


I've had some training and education from vets, but I'm no expert. I'd rather have Will answer these questions more thoroughly. @Kapidolo Farms 

First you have to determine the level of bio-security you are after. There is a wide spectrum here from haphazardly mixing species to a full-on high security bio-lab. I think most of us are near the middle of those two extremes.

A good rule of thumb for general quarantine purposes is a 6' air barrier between enclosures. Then have dedicated "utensils" for each enclosure. Hand washing, or disposable gloves and a dedicated smock and shoes for each enclosure helps too. Nothing wrong with using a foot bath going into and out of each enclosure. As discussed in another thread, some organisms, like crypto, can be spread by flies going from one enclosure to another. The farther apart the enclosures are, the more you reduce the chances of this. What is reasonable? Every person must answer that for themselves. I have a five acre ranch and any new animal is quarantined off site for at least 3 months and sometimes 12 months. Anything wild caught will likely never be brought onto my ranch. My level of paranoia and care is probably much higher than average, but I've had a problem before and it cost me a lot both emotionally and financially. I've seen other people lose entire collections just out of stupidity, carelessness or ignorance.

Russians are one of the worst for carrying and dispersing weird diseases. So many still come out of the wild and are exposed to all sort of bio-risks in transit. I would only buy a CB Russian from known long term captives in a stable environment. I would not feel comfortable with a shared wall, or even having it in the same room as my other tortoises. When considering the hassle and expense of initiating a quarantine strategy, I always ask myself: "What is my current collection of healthy tortoises worth to me?" "What happens to my current tortoises if I introduce some horrible disease to them?" The answers to those questions is a powerful motivator for me.

Some of my reptile vet friends recommend 3 months and others recommend 12 months. It also depends on the source of the animal and the level of diagnostic testing you do with the new animals during quarantine. If you buy a tortoise from a large scale breeder with many species and many animals coming and going, you'll need a lot longer quarantine period than if you buy from a guy that has had three tortoises of the same species in his back yard for 20 years and sells the babies every year. You could still get a disease from the latter, but its a lot less likely. When I finally get a male radiata, it will live at the vets place for several months, and he will be doing every diagnostic test known to man multiple times before it gets to meet the girls and have "contact".


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## jsheffield (Aug 16, 2019)

Thanks!

Jamie


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## TammyJ (Aug 16, 2019)

This is very interesting and useful and can save a lot of loss and grief!
I know that, for example, cryptosporidium (crypto) is a terrible diagnosis for your reptile(s) to be faced with.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 16, 2019)

Hey guys, a few 'reach-out' for me saying who and what collections. That's not going to happen. The friend was given a promise of not saying, no matter the inquiring interest offering the same. That friend has reached-out to those that are direct sources and sinks. It's up to those sources and sinks to do their own reach-out. Trust is more valuable than a gravid female ploughshare.


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## 2turtletom (Aug 29, 2019)

Kapidolo Farms said:


> Why does this have to be said? It's your fault when you don't quarantine.
> 
> One, among many, good things about my W2 job is that I can talk to people on the phone when my tasking can be run with muscle memory. I get to talk to chelonian people all over the US.
> 
> ...



I have five Kinixys that were previously in the care of The TSAand all five of them have tested postitive for TINC. I have a feeling that TINC is much more prevalent in captive collections then we realize, simply because there are very few people that actually have their animals tested for it, it’s an expensive test, and only done at a few (maybe only one?) place. TINC would be a great topic for a presentation at TTPG some day...


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## Yvonne G (Aug 29, 2019)

Ben02 said:


> Very interesting but scary at the same time. One new addition can wipe out an entire group *shudder*. Stress can also cause runny noses in torts aswell. The stress of having a new enclosure and owner really messes with them, quarantine comes in to use here allowing you to evaluate whether the bubbles are stress related or something far more serious.


Ed Pirog told us quite a while back about adding a leopard to his colony, not knowing it had a disease (I can't for the life of me remember the name of the disease, sorry). He lost his whole leopard colony.


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## Ben02 (Aug 29, 2019)

Yvonne G said:


> Ed Pirog told us quite a while back about adding a leopard to his colony, not knowing it had a disease (I can't for the life of me remember the name of the disease, sorry). He lost his whole leopard colony.


Oh dear, that’s awful. Even when thinking about adding a tort to a group, quarantine has to be priority 1.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Aug 29, 2019)

Yvonne G said:


> Ed Pirog told us quite a while back about adding a leopard to his colony, not knowing it had a disease (I can't for the life of me remember the name of the disease, sorry). He lost his whole leopard colony.


Reading this breaks my heart. 
Thank you for sharing.


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