# egg shells



## the Turtle Shepherd (May 19, 2017)

ground egg shells are some of my sulcatas favorite things to chew on, mine live on all natural diet, and every once in a while they will devour and whole bunch, like a whole shell, and then will not eat them for a while, I just wanted to share, in case anyone is low on their purchased calcium supplements - use your chicken egg shell, all turtles actually go for them, especially when they smell like raw egg 
p.s. you can chew the egg shells, they are not as hard as you would expect, and if you eat one egg shell yourself every day for seven days - your teeth will get visibly whiter, not kidding 
happy turtling


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (May 19, 2017)

the Turtle Shepherd said:


> ground egg shells are some of my sulcatas favorite things to chew on, mine live on all natural diet, and every once in a while they will devour and whole bunch, like a whole shell, and then will not eat them for a while, I just wanted to share, in case anyone is low on their purchased calcium supplements - use your chicken egg shell, all turtles actually go for them, especially when they smell like raw egg
> p.s. you can chew the egg shells, they are not as hard as you would expect, and if you eat one egg shell yourself every day for seven days - your teeth will get visibly whiter, not kidding
> happy turtling


Thank you cause I've been saying this for a long time .


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## wellington (May 19, 2017)

Got some shells drying per GrandPa Turtle 144 method. Just have to get a grinder. I will leave the shell eating to the torts though.


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## the Turtle Shepherd (May 19, 2017)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> Thank you cause I've been saying this for a long time .
> View attachment 207996


hugs to you, man, i am with you, and you are funny


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## the Turtle Shepherd (May 19, 2017)

another thing is to fry the shells, just flatten then after you fry the eggs for yourself for example and fry the shells after, they become more brittle and actually tastier being cooked and all with the egg leftovers, you can crush them with a rock on a rocky or cement surface, the torts and turts will do the rest


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## seanang168 (May 20, 2017)

My tortoise is Star tortoise. Can she eat eggshell too?


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## JoesMum (May 20, 2017)

seanang168 said:


> My tortoise is Star tortoise. Can she eat eggshell too?


Ground egg shell can be used as a calcium supplement with any tortoise species - you don't need much


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## MangoKing (May 20, 2017)

I dont even know you would need to crush them up finely when feeding to a tortoise. The reason the eggs are crushed when feeding back to chickens is so they dont look like eggs. Many also bake the shells at 350 for about 10 min. This does make the shells easier to crush by hand and is supposed to make sure there is no bacterial contamination. I used to bake mine before crushing and feeding to the chickens but have not the past year or so. I only feed shells from my own flock so dont feel the need. If i for some reason was feeding shells from a different flock of chickens i think i would bake them. I also think i will bake the shells before feeding to the tortoise.


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## Ed mitch (May 20, 2017)

Can't wait to try this especially as I own 30 chickens and ducks!


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## ZEROPILOT (May 20, 2017)

I smash whole boiled eggs with a fist or whatever is handy and feed to my Redfoot. There's never anything left.


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## WithLisa (May 20, 2017)

I use ground egg shells only as a fertilizer for the enclosure. According to what I've heard, they aren't a good calcium supplement for tortoises. 
It's a much denser material than cuttlebones and the pH of the gastric juices of herbivorous tortoises is not as acidic as in mammals. Someone even showed photos of tort poo full of completely undigested egg shell pieces. 

I guess it's like feeding them sand. A little bit now and then is harmless but letting them eat a whole bowl of it could lead to problems like impaction (and they might eat it, not because they are after the calcium but because it smells delicious!).


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## JoesMum (May 20, 2017)

Letting them eat a whole bowl of any other source of calcium isn't good for them either. 

A tiny pinch three times a week is plenty


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## tortoiseplanet (May 20, 2017)

How often and how much egg shells is good to feed?


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## WithLisa (May 20, 2017)

JoesMum said:


> Letting them eat a whole bowl of any other source of calcium isn't good for them either.
> 
> A tiny pinch three times a week is plenty


How do you know it's plenty if they can hardly digest it?
My torts always have a bowl of ground cuttlebones and don't need restriction. With fresh egg shells they would definitely overeat themselves.


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## ZEROPILOT (May 20, 2017)

tortoiseplanet said:


> How often and how much egg shells is good to feed?


My 7 adults might eat 4 or 5 whole eggs a month in total. Not per tortoise.
I'm imagining that for forest floor dwelling tortoises such as Redfoot, eating fallen eggs would be fairly common.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (May 20, 2017)

WithLisa said:


> I use ground egg shells only as a fertilizer for the enclosure. According to what I've heard, they aren't a good calcium supplement for tortoises.
> It's a much denser material than cuttlebones and the pH of the gastric juices of herbivorous tortoises is not as acidic as in mammals. Someone even showed photos of tort poo full of completely undigested egg shell pieces.
> 
> I guess it's like feeding them sand. A little bit now and then is harmless but letting them eat a whole bowl of it could lead to problems like impaction (and they might eat it, not because they are after the calcium but because it smells delicious!).


How do you see the powder in the poo ? Cause I put the egg shells through a coffee grinder .


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## WithLisa (May 21, 2017)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> How do you see the powder in the poo ? Cause I put the egg shells through a coffee grinder .


I also use a (very old) coffee grinder, it's up to 1mm grain size. Those pieces would be visible, but a fine powder can't be seen with the naked eye.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (May 21, 2017)

WithLisa said:


> I also use a (very old) coffee grinder, it's up to 1mm grain size. Those pieces would be visible, but a fine powder can't be seen with the naked eye.


I've been feeding my torts ground eggshells for 17 years and they are doing great ! And I have just a few torts . Leopard torts , pancakes , Egyptians, herrmans , marginals, Az desert , Russians, Greeks , and 2 types of box turtle!


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## WithLisa (May 21, 2017)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> I've been feeding my torts ground eggshells for 17 years and they are doing great !


That's great! 
I've also done it for years, I'm sure it's not harmful at all, but I doubt it's a good calcium supplement.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (May 21, 2017)

WithLisa said:


> That's great!
> I've also done it for years, I'm sure it's not harmful at all, but I doubt it's a good calcium supplement.


I wish you didn't feel that way . But it's your right . Have a great day !


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## seanang168 (May 23, 2017)

Long ago, I told the pet shop I need calcium supplement for tortoise and they sold me a small bottle with no label on it. It is a kind of white powder. I have no idea what it is. I think might be calcium carbonate. I have been using it without issue


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## ZEROPILOT (May 23, 2017)

For what it's worth. About every other month I do a sweep collecting and testing under a microscope random poo from my pen looking for any indication of a serious parasitic event. 
I don't recall ever once finding any shell particles in any poop. 
Small rocks, yes. They look just like they did going in.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (May 23, 2017)

ZEROPILOT said:


> For what it's worth. About every other month I do a sweep collecting and testing under a microscope random poo from my pen looking for any indication of a serious parasitic event.
> I don't recall ever once finding any shell particles in any poop.
> Small rocks, yes. They look just like they did going in.


Thank you for your help !


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## Beasty_Artemis (May 25, 2017)

I just leave hard boiled egg shells hidden around my tortoise table for Artemis to track down and chew on. I usually crack up the egg shells before i leave them in there. S/he is a 2 1/2 year old red foot, and i have never spotted egg shell in her poo. But she has chunks of cuttlebone too, just because she seems to think its a good snack.


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## THBfriend (May 29, 2017)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> Thank you cause I've been saying this for a long time .
> View attachment 207996


Your line of reasoning there doesn't make a lot of sense. I could easily reply "I have never seen a tort picking up chicken eggshells, boiling/cleaning them, and then running them through a coffee grinder until they're powder" (that's assuming of course that you're using boiled/cleaned chicken eggshells and not other types).

Some tortoises (e.g. Mediterranean species living in coastal regions) *do* find cuttlebone in their natural habitat, without having to go "fishing". Cuttlebone is naturally deposited on beaches, you know.

Here's a great series of articles about various calcium sources (German language, but Google Translate does a passable job). Chicken eggshell does not get a recommendation there, because there are better alternatives (e.g. cuttlebone - "Sepiaschulp" in German). The author's own tortoises prefer bones and cuttlebone over eggshell when given the choice.
If ground eggshell works for you and your tortoises, great, but don't fool yourself and others that this is "more natural" than alternatives like cuttlebone (especially not if it's chicken eggshell).


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (May 29, 2017)

THBfriend said:


> Your line of reasoning there doesn't make a lot of sense. I could easily reply "I have never seen a tort picking up chicken eggshells, boiling/cleaning them, and then running them through a coffee grinder until they're powder" (that's assuming of course that you're using boiled/cleaned chicken eggshells and not other types).
> 
> Some tortoises (e.g. Mediterranean species living in coastal regions) *do* find cuttlebone in their natural habitat, without having to go "fishing". Cuttlebone is naturally deposited on beaches, you know.
> 
> ...


Well we all know what happens when we assume ! 
And yes in the wild I beleave torts eat bird eggs ! 
And if you dig back far enough on the internet you will get any answer. 
But I still hope you have a great day !


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## THBfriend (May 30, 2017)

@Grandpa Turtle 144 You didn't address a single point that the linked article brings up, instead you try to discredit it with the silly argument that you can find anything on the internet. Great job, proud of you.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (May 30, 2017)

THBfriend said:


> @Grandpa Turtle 144 You didn't address a single point that the linked article brings up, instead you try to discredit it with the silly argument that you can find anything on the internet. Great job, proud of you.


Thank you !


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## THBfriend (May 30, 2017)

@Grandpa Turtle 144 My pleasure.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (May 30, 2017)

THBfriend said:


> @Grandpa Turtle 144 My pleasure.


But you haven't changed a thing ! You won't use egg shells and I won't stop ! But have a great day !


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## TammyJ (May 30, 2017)

I am enjoying this thread a lot.
My redfoots sometimes chew on the cuttlebone, or they get it gratered and mixed with their greens now and then. They also enjoy smashed boiled eggs with the shell, and they really especially enjoy eating snails with the shell or on the half shell...but that's not for the squeamish.


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## Anyfoot (May 30, 2017)

When my females start hitting maturity they would and some are now dropping random eggs on the surface, the other torts eat them raw, yolk, albumen and shell. Surely eggs are dropped from nests in the wild, more so for forest dwelling species, I find eggs shells on the floor regularly when I'm out walking. 
Any species that goes on a beach has a chance of coming across cuttlebone at some time or other. I'll bet more Tortoises eat eggs than do cuttlebone in the wild.
Just because you see eggshell in poop doesn't mean none of the calcium from the shell wasn't absorbed. 
I throw cuttlebone and egg shells in. If they want it they'll eat it if they don't they won't. Way I see it hiding calcium in a loved food is my least liked method of all three. At least with eggshells and cuttlebone they regulate their own needs. 
Doesn't too much calcium powder contribute to the cause of kidney stones?


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (May 30, 2017)

Anyfoot said:


> When my females start hitting maturity they would and some are now dropping random eggs on the surface, the other torts eat them raw, yolk, albumen and shell. Surely eggs are dropped from nests in the wild, more so for forest dwelling species, I find eggs shells on the floor regularly when I'm out walking.
> Any species that goes on a beach has a chance of coming across cuttlebone at some time or other. I'll bet more Tortoises eat eggs than do cuttlebone in the wild.
> Just because you see eggshell in poop doesn't mean none of the calcium from the shell wasn't absorbed.
> I throw cuttlebone and egg shells in. If they want it they'll eat it if they don't they won't. Way I see it hiding calcium in a loved food is my least liked method of all three. At least with eggshells and cuttlebone they regulate their own needs.
> Doesn't too much calcium powder contribute to the cause of kidney stones?


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## Anyfoot (May 30, 2017)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> View attachment 209002


Thanks Grandpapa. 
Now you know why asked the question.
I've read lack of calcium and too much oxalates increases chances of kidney stones but also calcium supplements increase chances of kidney stones, not dietary calcium. 

@Will an explanation please sir.


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## Kapidolo Farms (May 30, 2017)

Anyfoot said:


> Thanks Grandpapa.
> Now you know why asked the question.
> I've read lack of calcium and too much oxalates increases chances of kidney stones but also calcium supplements increase chances of kidney stones, not dietary calcium.
> 
> @Will an explanation please sir.


What exactly are you asking?

Thomas Boyer DVM has given many talks on tortoise nutrition. He's a global authority and actually does research even though he is a 'practicing' Vet. In one of those talks he expressed the matter of stones are not calcium. Not one published record (science that is, not some anecdotal 'newsletter contribution) indicates the concretion mass of stuff is based on calcium. It's some combination of urea/urates etc. Not calcium. He has examined many many stones himself, not calcium.

Calcium carbonate is the best form. 

On another note, I recall a study where the investigator linked the type of calcium consumed to the type of calcium crystals formed in egg tortoises lay. So different forms of calcium do make a difference. Cuttle bone has other minerals in it, than just calcium carbonate, so that's why I use it on a rotating basis with straight calcium carbonate, both with D3 added and without.

If that doesn't cover the question then please advise.

And @Grandpa Turtle 144 I call chicken feces to quote me in such a way that I'm not alerted via the TFO system. Not cool.


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## ZEROPILOT (May 30, 2017)

In the case of my south Florida kept tortoises...They do eat cuttlebone and consume whole eggs. The eggs are fed whole as a convenience to me and I assumed that the shell was beneficial. I feed chicken and tortoise as well as finch and canary eggs that have been boiled.These appear to be digested in the gut. The "rocks" in my yard are almost certainly what they appear to be. Coral.
(This whole area is reclaimed swamp and full of sand, coral and shells.)
But these calcium rich(?)coral rocks do not disolve and are passed whole in my observation. It is possible, however, that the rocks I see that are passed are actually smaller than when they went in.
Thoughts on calcium in coral being of any benefit.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (May 30, 2017)

Will said:


> What exactly are you asking?
> 
> Thomas Boyer DVM has given many talks on tortoise nutrition. He's a global authority and actually does research even though he is a 'practicing' Vet. In one of those talks he expressed the matter of stones are not calcium. Not one published record (science that is, not some anecdotal 'newsletter contribution) indicates the concretion mass of stuff is based on calcium. It's some combination of urea/urates etc. Not calcium. He has examined many many stones himself, not calcium.
> 
> ...


Sorry but he ask if calcium causes stones and you said no and I left your name on it ! But I'm sorry again if it up set you . Sorry


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## leigti (May 30, 2017)

WithLisa said:


> How do you know it's plenty if they can hardly digest it?
> My torts always have a bowl of ground cuttlebones and don't need restriction. With fresh egg shells they would definitely overeat themselves.



Why do you think they would over eat the egg shells versus the cuttlebone? I would think that if the eggshells have been cleaned and are dry it wouldn't make them over eat them. Maybe if they still had some goo in them they would eat more of it.
I personally don't see anything wrong with feeding eggshells.


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## Anyfoot (May 30, 2017)

Will said:


> What exactly are you asking?
> 
> Thomas Boyer DVM has given many talks on tortoise nutrition. He's a global authority and actually does research even though he is a 'practicing' Vet. In one of those talks he expressed the matter of stones are not calcium. Not one published record (science that is, not some anecdotal 'newsletter contribution) indicates the concretion mass of stuff is based on calcium. It's some combination of urea/urates etc. Not calcium. He has examined many many stones himself, not calcium.
> 
> ...



Apologies, I wasn't clear with the question, as usual I expect the listeners to be telepathic, my Mrs is always having a go at me about not explaining myself correctly. You answered in most part but here goes. 

My question is does over supplementing with calcium contribute to kidney stones? 

Is getting a tortoise to unknowingly eat excessive amounts of calcium by hiding it in foods causing or contributing to kidney stones, and is feeding eggs or cuttlebone a safer option? We know an experienced keeper can give calcium supplement with no Ill effects, but is it possible for an novis to do damage by over supplementing. 

Do you know if Thomas Boyer examined stones from tortoises that knowingly had a high intake of calcium supplement? If yes and he proved it was still something else like uric acid or oxalates then he proved over supplementing with calcium does not cause kidney stones.


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## Kapidolo Farms (May 31, 2017)

Anyfoot said:


> Apologies, I wasn't clear with the question, as usual I expect the listeners to be telepathic, my Mrs is always having a go at me about not explaining myself correctly. You answered in most part but here goes.
> 
> My question is does over supplementing with calcium contribute to kidney stones?
> 
> ...




He has examined many dozen, maybe hundreds of stones. They were all urate/urea concretions. But beyond his personal observation he looked at all published accounts. If the calcium overabundance were a thing, it's be out there in the published world.

This is what shows up with calcium
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=tortoise+calcium+stone 

Here is a similar search for 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=tortoise+urinary+stone

Knock yourself out.

As for source ingested, smaller particles might always be more readily digested than big particles. Also keep in mind sometimes stone eating has been associated with a lack of dietary fiber or seedy items in the diet which facilitate bolus motility. If those things are calcium rich, well as long as it doesn't accumulate or block, it might not be so bad.

@Grandpa Turtle 144 thanks for letting me know, thank you much.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (May 31, 2017)

Will said:


> He has examined many dozen, maybe hundreds of stones. They were all urate/urea concretions. But beyond his personal observation he looked at all published accounts. If the calcium overabundance were a thing, it's be out there in the published world.
> 
> This is what shows up with calcium
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=tortoise+calcium+stone
> ...


Im truly sorry . I wouldn't try to anger anyone .


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## Anyfoot (May 31, 2017)

One more question then I'm going to knock my self out with your links. 
Are eggshells a good source of calcium?


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## Kapidolo Farms (May 31, 2017)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11194049


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## Kapidolo Farms (May 31, 2017)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_carbonate


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## Kapidolo Farms (May 31, 2017)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11194049


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (May 31, 2017)

I'm positive there are better types that you can buy in the store , but I don't trust the chemicals you can buy in the stores ! Egg shells are natural , no chemicals or preserving chemicals or color dies are added to them !


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jun 1, 2017)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> I'm positive there are better types that you can buy in the store , but I don't trust the chemicals you can buy in the stores ! Egg shells are natural , no chemicals or preserving chemicals or color dies are added to them !



Well, they are the result of what the chickens ate. I have gone ever more to buying organic, I imagine organic eggs would be better than others. Not a guarantee by any means, but better. Besides you already have it on hand.


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## leigti (Jun 1, 2017)

Will said:


> Well, they are the result of what the chickens ate. I have gone ever more to buying organic, I imagine organic eggs would be better than others. Not a guarantee by any means, but better. Besides you already have it on hand.


Any chicken eggs that come from home raised backyard chickens are going to be healthier than what you get in the store. Even the so-called organic. To be certified organic the chickens must be fed vegetarian food. But chickens aren't vegetarian. The chicken feed I use is organic, non-GMO, corn and soy free. And it also has fish meal in it. I would feed my tortoises my own chicken egg shells but not any bought from the store.


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## THBfriend (Jun 2, 2017)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> But you haven't changed a thing !


I did. I debunked your ridiculous story about "torts fishing for cuttlebone" which you brought up as an argument for eggshell being "more natural". It isn't.


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## THBfriend (Jun 2, 2017)

Anyfoot said:


> Doesn't too much calcium powder contribute to the cause of kidney stones?


Not that I know of. Kidney stones are mainly calcium _oxalate_, not calcium _carbonate_. Which is one reason why it's said that you shouldn't feed oxalate-rich plants like spinach to tortoises.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Jun 2, 2017)

THBfriend said:


> I did. I debunked your ridiculous story about "torts fishing for cuttlebone" which you brought up as an argument for eggshell being "more natural". It isn't.


No you didn't ! But this looks ridiculous ! But have a nice day !


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## THBfriend (Jun 2, 2017)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> No you didn't ! But this looks ridiculous ! But have a nice day !


Yes, I did. People who've done excursions into the habitat of Greek and Hermann's tortoises have found cuttlebone there (source: this book, for example). Not just on beaches, but also further inland, probably carried there by birds. Wild tortoises get most of their calcium from their food and water. Additionally, they nibble on limestone, animal bones, eggshell (from small birds and the like, certainly not big chicken eggs), and also cuttlebone.
Eggshell is mostly calcium carbonate, as is cuttlebone. The difference is that eggshell has a tougher, more crystalline structure, which is harder to digest for an animal without a very acidic stomach (i.e. tortoises). You can somewhat remedy that by grinding the eggshell into fine particles, to increase the attack surface. Cuttlebone on the other hand has a very porous structure already, and therefore can be more easily absorbed without having to be ground. It practically crumbles into powder automatically when tortoises chew on it.

PS: it's an error to type a space in front of the ending punctuation of a sentence. But have a nice day!


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## Yvonne G (Jun 2, 2017)

Let's all please remember to play nice.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jun 2, 2017)

THBfriend said:


> Not that I know of. Kidney stones are mainly calcium _oxalate_, not calcium _carbonate_. Which is one reason why it's said that you shouldn't feed oxalate-rich plants like spinach to tortoises.


Show me one clinical result of a stone being Calcium-anything in a tortoise. Just one.

I know there is a preponderance of anecdotal 'calcium' stones, non of those reports include an analysis of the material in the stone.

"it's said . . ." That's why we have TFO. I'm saying stones aren't calcium concretions and I can back that up with quotes from well regarded vets who study tortoise nutrition, and published accounts.

I know there is such a whirlwind of "it's said" out there. Hard to keep it all straight.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Jun 2, 2017)

Will said:


> Show me one clinical result of a stone being Calcium-anything in a tortoise. Just one.
> 
> I know there is a preponderance of anecdotal 'calcium' stones, non of those reports include an analysis of the material in the stone.
> 
> ...


Thank you @Will maybe he will argue with you for awhile and give me a brake . Thank you again


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## leigti (Jun 2, 2017)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> Thank you @Will maybe he will argue with you for awhile and give me a brake . Thank you again


Grandpa, I think you can take him


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Jun 2, 2017)

leigti said:


> Grandpa, I think you can take him


I can with tortoise info. But I'm here to learn and help not to argue !


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## Anyfoot (Jun 3, 2017)

From what I've tried to research, the only time calcium becomes an issue regarding kidney stones is if something else is

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Kidney-stones/Pages/Causes.aspx


Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> I can with tortoise info. But I'm here to learn and help not to argue !


And welcome every new member with open arms that joins.


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