# Clutch Of Eggs Half Related?



## onarock (Dec 14, 2010)

I think Ive posted this on unrelated threads, but my question is. If we assume that a female that has been with a male can lay fertile eggs for up to a reported five years after that male has been removed (retaining semen). Than can we assume that a female that has been with multiple males can lay eggs that are half related, meaning, the female produced a clutch of eggs using the semen of mutiple males.


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## Az tortoise compound (Dec 14, 2010)

That is how I understand it


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## onarock (Dec 14, 2010)

Az tortoise compound said:


> That is how I understand it



Mick, has this been discussed and I'm just late to the party? Because we hear so much about hatchling relation and genetics. I mean there are studbooks that dont dive into that kind of info. Usually in a studbook you read Dame # 24 and sire usually reads Multiple or a specific male. Usually Multiple means female kept in colony with multiple males not female has been exclusive with multiple males at different times.


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## Tom (Dec 14, 2010)

I know that dogs can have multiple sires in one litter. I would assume torts can too, but don't know that for a fact. I did not know that they could store sperm for that long either.


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## Az tortoise compound (Dec 14, 2010)

[/quote]

Multiple means female kept in colony with multiple males not female has been exclusive with multiple males at different times.
[/quote]

I am not sure what the difference is?? If a female is kept with multiple males, they can only "hook up" at different times. Do I make sense? You can't have two males breed with one female simultaneously (although they sure try)

If a female is only housed with one unique male each year for three years or if she is housed with three males (4 animals in a pen) for three years, any male could be the sire of any hatchling...right? (I'm talking at the end of the 3 years of course)


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## onarock (Dec 14, 2010)

Multiple means female kept in colony with multiple males not female has been exclusive with multiple males at different times.
[/quote]

I am not sure what the difference is?? If a female is kept with multiple males, they can only "hook up" at different times. Do I make sense? You can't have two males breed with one female simultaneously (although they sure try)

If a female is only housed with one unique male each year for three years or if she is housed with three males (4 animals in a pen) for three years, any male could be the sire of any hatchling...right? (I'm talking at the end of the 3 years of course)
[/quote]

Right, female kept with multiple males. oK so if a female can produce eggs from sperm from a male 3,4,5 years ago, she cant store it in its own compartment, can she. Or is the microscopic egg fertilized at the point of conception and stored for a later date?. If that female mated with all three males in that 3 year span then she is laying clutches of eggs that are half siblings? Each male is represented in the clutch. So year 1 she is housed with male A and layes a clutch exclusively to A. Year 2 she is housed with only male B and lays a clutch containing offspring from both A and B. Year 3 she is housed with male C and in that season layes eggs with genetics of A, B and C. Is that probable?


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## Az tortoise compound (Dec 14, 2010)

[/quote]


Right, female kept with multiple males. oK so if a female can produce eggs from sperm from a male 3,4,5 years ago,
[/quote]

Not sure on how long, I can only personally verify two years.


[/quote]

she cant store it in its own compartment, can she. Or is the microscopic egg fertilized at the point of conception and stored for a later date?. 
[/quote]

That is a question for the more scientifically inclined than me.


[/quote]
If that female mated with all three males in that 3 year span then she is laying clutches of eggs that are half siblings? Each male is represented in the clutch. So year 1 she is housed with male A and layes a clutch exclusively to A. Year 2 she is housed with only male B and lays a clutch containing offspring from both A and B. Year 3 she is housed with male C and in that season layes eggs with genetics of A, B and C. Is that probable?
[/quote]

Yes, as far as I know.... for instance.... the leop-cata......I would think that female Sully could hatch out both hybrids and full sullies in the same clutch.


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## onarock (Dec 14, 2010)

Mick, I thougth that ATC was the same as a PHD!


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## Az tortoise compound (Dec 14, 2010)

Well far be it for me to correct you Ha! Ha! I attended the school of hard knocks and majored in trial and error.


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## onarock (Dec 14, 2010)

Az tortoise compound said:


> Well far be it for me to correct you Ha! Ha! I attended the school of hard knocks and majored in trial and error.



good enough for me.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Dec 15, 2010)

Our breeding colony consist of several males and multiple females. I am 99% sure we have had hatchlings from the same clutch with different males providing fertility.


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## Angi (Dec 15, 2010)

This is a very interesting thread. Thank you Onaroc for starting it. I am blown away by this info.


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## onarock (Dec 15, 2010)

Right, female kept with multiple males. oK so if a female can produce eggs from sperm from a male 3,4,5 years ago,
[/quote]

Not sure on how long, I can only personally verify two years.


[/quote]

she cant store it in its own compartment, can she. Or is the microscopic egg fertilized at the point of conception and stored for a later date?. 
[/quote]

That is a question for the more scientifically inclined than me.


[/quote]
If that female mated with all three males in that 3 year span then she is laying clutches of eggs that are half siblings? Each male is represented in the clutch. So year 1 she is housed with male A and layes a clutch exclusively to A. Year 2 she is housed with only male B and lays a clutch containing offspring from both A and B. Year 3 she is housed with male C and in that season layes eggs with genetics of A, B and C. Is that probable?
[/quote]

Yes, as far as I know.... for instance.... the leop-cata......I would think that female Sully could hatch out both hybrids and full sullies in the same clutch.
[/quote]

Mick, I was tired last night when I read the last part of your post. Yes, wouldnt it be interesting if that female sulcata also bred with another sulcata and produced a clutch of pure sulcatas and leop-cata? Wow, I think I would be blown away by that.


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## kbaker (Dec 15, 2010)

[/quote]

Mick, I was tired last night when I read the last part of your post. Yes, wouldnt it be interesting if that female sulcata also bred with another sulcata and produced a clutch of pure sulcatas and leop-cata? Wow, I think I would be blown away by that. 
[/quote]

This has been done.


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## abra (Dec 15, 2010)

I'm sure they can cause dogs and cats can here's a picture of half siblings, one is a pure bred Yorkshire Terrier and one is a Chihuahua/Yorkshire Terrier from the same litter: http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images19/ChihuahuaYorkieTwins.JPG

Obviously torts are different but it's probably the same kind of idea. People can do it too with fraternal twins, at least that's what my health teacher told me  That's why there's so much variety in kittens.


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## ChiKat (Dec 15, 2010)

abra said:


> I'm sure they can cause dogs and cats can here's a picture of half siblings, one is a pure bred Yorkshire Terrier and one is a Chihuahua/Yorkshire Terrier from the same litter: http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images19/ChihuahuaYorkieTwins.JPG
> 
> Obviously torts are different but it's probably the same kind of idea. People can do it too with fraternal twins, at least that's what my health teacher told me  That's why there's so much variety in kittens.



Isn't that just a picture of two Chi/Yorkie mixes, and one looks more like a Yorkie? I don't know anything about breeding so correct me if I'm wrong!

eta: crap, off-topic again. SORRY!


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## onarock (Dec 16, 2010)

I am involved with a toroise studbook and the first 20-30 animals in the book are Wild Caught. They are also responsible for producing a large portion of the other animals. If we dont know their breeding history in the wild and females can lay clutches of eggs with multiple Sire's then I would think that this particular studbook could have more genetic diversity than I thought. Or, anyone else.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 16, 2010)

ChiKat said:


> Isn't that just a picture of two Chi/Yorkie mixes, and one looks more like a Yorkie? I don't know anything about breeding so correct me if I'm wrong!
> 
> eta: crap, off-topic again. SORRY!



In dogs and cats (I'm not a vet or a scientist, so I'm just saying it like I understand it) there are mature follicles that are ready to be fertilized. Lets say a dog has 8 mature follicles. She gets bred by another dog, her same breed and that sperm fertilizes 5 of the follicles. Then she gets bred by that dastardly cur from around the corner and the remaining follicles are fertilized. She will have 5 pure bred pups and 3 mutts. Of course, the purebreds can't be registered, but they are, indeed, purebred.


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## ChiKat (Dec 16, 2010)

Oh wow, thanks for the info Yvonne!


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## dmmj (Dec 16, 2010)

I guess it would depend mainly on whether or not the tortoise can store male sperm, box turtles can, so how many other species can do that?


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## Balboa (Dec 16, 2010)

Yes, Dmmj, torts are known to do that as well.

Maybe on topic, maybe not, and I'm certainly NOT qualified to make a determination....

but from what little I do know about biology,

I doubt in either case the sperm is actually stored. I'd suspect its like Yvonne mentioned, fertilized "folicles" or the like are stored. Basically a zygote held in suspended animation. As sperm is a foreign body to the female until it unites with an egg, she would have no way to gather and cryogenically freeze it for later use like people do. Once united though, it becomes a part of her body and sustainable. Well really the sperm ceases to be, but the genes it carries are paired with an egg and waiting their turn to grow.

make sense? and purely a semantic issue really, but possibly helps with the understanding.

That could imply something else interesting.

Lets say a female mates multiple years with a male, he dies or whatever, and then she's paired with another. It may be possible that none of the eggs laid for a couple years are any of the new father's offspring, if they don't happen to make the lottery on who gets laid. I would suspect that older zygotes take precedence over newer, as they likely lose viability over the long term.

hmmm or on second thought, maybe the newer take precedence, as they are the freshest..... and she only digs into the older to "fill out the batch"


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## onarock (Dec 17, 2010)

Balboa said:


> Yes, Dmmj, torts are known to do that as well.
> 
> Maybe on topic, maybe not, and I'm certainly NOT qualified to make a determination....
> 
> ...





How about this to go along with the stored egg theory. I little while back we moved. I took my tortoises to my cousins house for about 2 weeks while we were moving. My big female layed a clutch at his house the first night she was there. We brought her to out new house and put her in a temp setup, acutally a fenced off part of her new setup. The first night there she layed a clutch. About 3 weeks later I opened the rest of the enclosure to them and she layed a clutch that same night in the new area. We had kept the females seperate from the males the whole timea and most all the eggs that were layed were fertile.


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