# Adult SPP!



## Torts"R"Us (Sep 25, 2013)

Here are some more pics of my SPP females , hope you all enjoy[FACE WITH STUCK-OUT TONGUE AND WINKING EYE]


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Sep 25, 2013)

Total WOW factor. Stunning. Love-love-love them! : )


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## DevilsLettuce (Sep 25, 2013)

I can't wait till my PPs get that size


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## diamondbp (Sep 25, 2013)

So amazing. My favorite tortoise species!


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## luvpetz27 (Sep 26, 2013)

Beauties!!


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## ben awes (Sep 26, 2013)

Torts"R"Us said:


> Here are some more pics of my SPP females , hope you all enjoy[FACE WITH STUCK-OUT TONGUE AND WINKING EYE]



Very nice! Wow, remarkable how smooth they are. Can you share how big they are - weight? 

What is the flooring they are on in the one photo?

thanks


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## Torts"R"Us (Sep 26, 2013)

In my opinion overall they look smooth to me . My largest female currently weights 50 pounds and measures 23"SCL , smaller 2 females measure 19"-21" SCL . The flooring is a rubber floor mat that's placed inside there tortoise shed. I don't use any substrate , except for winter .


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## diamondbp (Sep 26, 2013)

Any hatchlings coming up soon?


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## Irish (Sep 26, 2013)

Quite the lookers.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Sep 26, 2013)

ben awes said:


> Very nice! Wow, remarkable how smooth they are.


Ben, one of those might be your big babies' momma. Adam, are those the JP GPP/SPPs? Ben has a baby from them, now years older of course! Kinda cool.


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## Torts"R"Us (Sep 27, 2013)

I'm hopping to start producing SPP hatchlings at the end of next year . And yes , these females once belonged to Jeff P.


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## DevilsLettuce (Sep 27, 2013)

Well let us know when you do... I wouldn't mind a couple hatchlings to add on to my herd...


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Sep 27, 2013)

Torts"R"Us said:


> I'm hopping to start producing SPP hatchlings at the end of next year . And yes , these females once belonged to Jeff P.



They are soooo beautiful. Ben has one of their babies. : )


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## Neal (Sep 27, 2013)

Interesting observation - a lot of the SPP I have seen in the US, including my own, have a lot of marginal flaring on the front and rear marginals. Your adults don't appear to have much at all. Look at Dennis's male SPP for a good example of what I'm talking about.

Maybe you have a different variant of South African Leopard than what a lot of us do.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Sep 27, 2013)

Neal said:


> Interesting observation - a lot of the SPP I have seen in the US, including my own, have a lot of marginal flaring on the front and rear marginals. Your adults don't appear to have much at all. Look at Dennis's male SPP for a good example of what I'm talking about.
> 
> Maybe you have a different variant of South African Leopard than what a lot of us do.



Neal, I believe, Adam can correct me if I am mistaken, these are wild caught adults, from the early 90's, the one that was 50 animals into USA, and no more. So amazing.


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## mikeh (Sep 27, 2013)

*Re: RE: Adult SPP!*



Neal said:


> Interesting observation - a lot of the SPP I have seen in the US, including my own, have a lot of marginal flaring on the front and rear marginals. Your adults don't appear to have much at all. Look at Dennis's male SPP for a good example of what I'm talking about.
> 
> Maybe you have a different variant of South African Leopard than what a lot of us do.



Thank you. That's what I keep asking about, much less flaring in the pictures of wild SPP then everything I see in the US with the exception of Adams. If Bens and others came from these, how come his and others have such pronounced flaring? That's why thought of husbandry came to mind in regards to flaring in captives. 

sent from mobile device using TFO app


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## Neal (Sep 27, 2013)

I've actually seen more pictures of "wild" South African leopards with flaring than not.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Sep 27, 2013)

Really? Well, so much for that being the reason. I was sure that's what it was. I wonder then if it's like you suggested, a variant within the region. And remember what Tom said he was told at the expo (in Anaheim), that the South African leopard tortoises were brought in by the English. He shared that on another thread. The plot thickens ...


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## Neal (Sep 27, 2013)

In case you haven't read it yet - http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Articles/Fritz_etal_2010a.pdf

It has been a couple of years since I have read it, so I hope I remember things correctly. But I believe this article suggests that the majority of the "varients" identified in leopard tortoises occurred in Southern Africa. While we only refer to one or the other here in the US, it seems that in the wild, it is much more complex than just the South African variety and the Eastern African variety.


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## Torts"R"Us (Sep 27, 2013)

View attachment 57091
I see what your point is , Neal . But than again I have seen SPP with the same or even less marginal front and back flaring than my torts . Wanda Pattersons sunset hypo Pardalis female , is a prime example (very minimal marginal flaring). My smallest female out of the 3 has the most marginal flaring , I believe . I have whats believed to be a pardalis/babcocki male that has more front and back marginal flaring than my het for sunset hypo pardalis male . So what does this really mean ? I attached a picture of my hybrid male to compare .


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Sep 27, 2013)

Excellent study to read Neal. Thanks. Such a large range for SP/GP babcocki compared to SP/GP pardalis. You know, I have wondered if somewhere down the line, at some time long ago, there was a cross breeding in colonies that shared the range ... and by that I mean cross breeding between sulcata and leopards. Perhaps the flares show up in those with that genetic background, from way back when. Possible, yes? Also, the personality that some GPP owners describe as being more sulcata-like. And then of course, the size differences. Sudan and Ethiopia for instance, range shared at some point, hence gigantor leopards from gigantor sulcatas, that is my question! Ethiopia and South Sudan touch. Those Ethiopian leopards we have seen are Sudan sulcata huge! 


And that male is beautiful, too. Looks big, a big beauty! : )


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## Neal (Sep 27, 2013)

Torts"R"Us said:


> I see what your point is , Neal . But than again I have seen SPP with the same or even less marginal front and back flaring than my torts . Wanda Pattersons sunset hypo Pardalis female , is a prime example (very minimal marginal flaring). My smallest female out of the 3 has the most marginal flaring , I believe . I have whats believed to be a pardalis/babcocki male that has more front and back marginal flaring than my het for sunset hypo pardalis male . So what does this really mean ? I attached a picture of my hybrid male to compare .



It's difficult to say what it really means, it is just an interesting observations is all. I don't mean to suggest that the marginal flaring is only a South African trait, or the lack of indicates that it is not. I have personally seen it more frequently on South African varieties than others. Of course, my observations are primarily from internet photos and a few adult specimens I've seen in person. 

It would have been nice to have some physical characteristics described in the study I referenced. I think there is still a lot to learn about leopard tortoises in the wild.


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## reatrocity (Sep 27, 2013)

They are gorgeous! The strange part is I have only been near a large tortoise maybe once in my life. I hope when I go back to Florida I find someone that has a larger tortoise so I could sit and stare at them all day, haha.


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