# Interesting article on pyramiding



## Skip K (Dec 7, 2020)

Thought provoking article on pyramiding. Many know my reasons for wanting scientific explanations of husbandry protocols. The article does not promote anything...but gives an unbiased look at various research being done in the field. Simply food for thought.









Pyramiding - Big and Small Tortoise Rescue and Sanctuary


...the proliferation of the epidermis in scutes of the carapace and plastron in the tortoise (Testudo hermanni) corresponded with seasonal changes.




bigandsmalltortoise.org


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## Tom (Dec 7, 2020)

From the article: "The conclusion is that, so far, no one really knows what “causes” pyramiding. The studies outlined so far are faulty for one reason – most were looking for a single environmental cause to pin-point. Pyramiding is a symptom of poor care, and poor care can be caused by any husbandry-related factor."

This is false. We DO know, and poor care isn't it.

Also from the article: "If we consider captive-raised tortoises, which are almost always going to experience less-than-ideal conditions compared to their wild counterparts..."

This is usually the opposite of reality. Life in the wild is very harsh and most animals are merely surviving most of the time. In captivity they are protected from the harsh realities of wild living in our temperature controlled environments with shelter from temperature extremes, predators, and an abundance of fresh clean water and nutritious food.

The premise that we think pyramiding is caused by a lack of humidity is also false. Pyramiding is _caused _ by growth in conditions that are too dry. This dryness can be caused by the wrong bulbs even in a humid environment. Mercury vapor bulbs, for one example.

I agree that Andy Highfield didn't know what he was talking about back then, and still doesn't, but some of us do. This author clearly has not met us.


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## Skip K (Dec 7, 2020)

Tom said:


> From the article: "The conclusion is that, so far, no one really knows what “causes” pyramiding. The studies outlined so far are faulty for one reason – most were looking for a single environmental cause to pin-point. Pyramiding is a symptom of poor care, and poor care can be caused by any husbandry-related factor."
> 
> This is false. We DO know, and poor care isn't it.
> 
> ...


I understand, Tom. Because of no clear scientific explanations...I constantly search for info that I can analyze. While I do believe that low humidity has a direct correlation to pyramiding...I still cannot find definitive info that answers what I want. Is low humidity solely the cause of pyramiding or does it counteract the effects of artificial heating causing pyramiding or maybe some other misunderstood aspect of “current husbandry”. Each theory leads me to more questions. Such as the heating lamps and pyramiding...but this doesn’t explain why some torts in the wild have pyramiding and some don’t. There is no artificial heat devices in nature. Is pyramiding in the wild caused in some torts simply being unlucky of being around lower humidity than others or they get too much sun...is it just genetics...is it a combination? I can’t find scientific explanations that are definitive or to my satisfaction. The most telling remark to me...in the article...is too many researchers are searching for one cause..and one cause only ( but this is just my take). I’ve been burned too many times over the decades and my animals have paid the price...that I am leery of just about anything...unless there is proof that I am comfortable with....and why my constant, never ending search for more information. You might say I trust everyone and no one. I am intrigued by the work of Alibardi and will see if I can find his research paper though. I also subscribe to the thought that although animals in the wild can have issues like available food, predators and environmental dangers...that in an effort to give our animals the best of everything it can also be counter productive. I’ll probably never be totally comfortable or 100% confident regarding aspects of husbandry. I don’t believe we have reached perfection in husbandry...or ever will really....but I sure as hell will make the effort.


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## turtlesteve (Dec 7, 2020)

Hmm. Well, it's an interesting article, but I don't much agree with it.

I don't agree with the conclusions of the Alibardi (2005) reference that he favors. Tortoises may grow extremely rapidly and pyramid. This hypothesis is based entirely on the concept that pyramiding is within the keratin scutes, which is false - the underlying bone is deformed. The supplemental night heat paper also seems to be conflating several factors - humidity was certainly different (not to mention growth rates) between the control and test scenarios, so is supplemental heat really the cause?

Regarding humidity: What we know with essentially 100% certainty is that high humidity _mitigates_ or _prevents_ pyramiding. Tom has shown this clearly, and many other keepers have been able to duplicate his results. Does low humidity actually cause pyramiding? This is a separate question. I accept that it does, pending interactions with other variables. Here are some thoughts:

- Low humidity causes pyramiding under specific conditions - the tortoise is young with a flexible carapace, and is actively growing. A tortoise that is growth smoothly to 4-6" and has a fully hard shell will generally not pyramid if subsequently raised dry, provided it is kept otherwise healthy (although this is still bad for other reasons). 

- A tortoise of any size can suddenly start to pyramid if severely calcium deficient (e.g. MBD), even if it grew smoothly before. I'd hypothesize this happens for the same fundamental reason - the shell becomes soft, humidity is low, and the tortoise keeps growing. 

- A tortoise that is pyramiding may suddenly stop pyramiding if conditions improve. This observation continues to intrigue me and I don't know what is going on yet.


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## Relic (Dec 14, 2020)

OK, I finally read the article this whole thread is based on. Very little of actual discovery and just a mish-mash of hypothesis-conjecture and speculation. But what is EXTREMELY off-putting about the article is the condescending attitude he displays toward the rest of us. "Newbies" is hardly a term an intelligent person would use to describe many of the long-term members here. I daresay there are folks here that have much more experience in all aspects of husbandry - with a wider variety of species - than some of the alleged experts who generate these "studies/articles." I guess if you don't wear a white smock, work all day in a laboratory, and manage to crank out a research paper every 18 months to keep your boss happy, well, your experiences and opinions have no value...


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