# Pinworms



## Jay Bagley (Nov 28, 2017)

Hello, I had put a post on last week about possibly bringing my sulcata to the vet for a routine checkup, and also some weird breathing noises he was making. I got some really good feedback from you guys about saving my money, and raising my temps to knock it out if it was a possible RI. I did not take him to the vet, his breathing is much better now, after closer examination it looks like he had some wet mazuri up his nose lol. I did however, bring in a poop sample to the Exotic vet in our area. She called me back today, and said that he had a very large number of pinworms in his poop. I guess I have a few questions, do you think this could be a contributing factor to his smaller size, he only weighs about a pound and a half at roughly two and a half years of age. I have only been his caretaker for a little over a month, I have had him outside 3 times. And the previouse owner never did. I'm just wondering what is the most logical way he could have picked them up so I can avoid this in the future. It is cold here in Michigan now, so he won't be getting any outside time and a chance to pick more up from outside for a while. I don't remember the name of it but she is giving me some kind of an oral medication but I am supposed to give to him twice and I am picking it up tomorrow. I have read about the pumpkin to eliminate pinworms, and also wondered if a vet prescribe medication or the pumpkin would be the way to go. And any precautions that I should be taking in the future. Thank you for any feedback.


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 28, 2017)

A lot of tortoises have worms. They are not always a serious problem.
Normally only eggs get passed in the poop.
Living, whole worms in the poop mean a very active and severe case.
I would administer the exact dosage just as the vet prescribes, mixed in wet Mazuri, or any other food that your tortoise will eat.
Treat for as long as the vet says to treat. Often it's a few days on and a few days off. This is to make sure the life cycle is stopped. No new eggs hatch, etc.
Change all of your bedding as you treat. There may be live eggs still in the substrate from poop.
You may or may not see dead worms as you treat.
My experience has been that most of the dead parasites get absorbed by the tortoise. But don't be alarmed if you see a lot of worms. Especially if they're dead.


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## Jay Bagley (Nov 28, 2017)

ZEROPILOT said:


> A lot of tortoises have worms. They are not always a serious problem.
> Normally only eggs get passed in the poop.
> Living, whole worms in the poop mean a very active and severe case.
> I would administer the exact dosage just as the vet prescribes, mixed in wet Mazuri, or any other food that your tortoise will eat.
> ...


Thanks for the response, I like the mazuri idea. The vet gave me two options, one was for me to bring home and administer myself, the other was to bring him in and she said she would sedate him and administer it there. Just seem like it would be a lot of unnecessary stress on him to bring him in and have him sedated. I will change the bedding for sure. I do my best to pick his poop up as he lets it out but it's a foot race for me to get to it before he decides to snack on it. Are tortoises born with worms in them? I was just trying to figure out if he gets it from possibly the produce that I buy or the few times he was outside.


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## Bambam1989 (Nov 28, 2017)

Jay Bagley said:


> Thanks for the response, I like the mazuri idea. The vet gave me two options, one was for me to bring home and administer myself, the other was to bring him in and she said she would sedate him and administer it there. Just seem like it would be a lot of unnecessary stress on him to bring him in and have him sedated. I will change the bedding for sure. I do my best to pick his poop up as he lets it out but it's a foot race for me to get to it before he decides to snack on it. Are tortoises born with worms in them? I was just trying to figure out if he gets it from possibly the produce that I buy or the few times he was outside.


Pretty sure they are not born with worms. Probably got them while outside, or eating food from outside that had dirt on it.


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## Jay Bagley (Nov 28, 2017)

Bambam1989 said:


> Pretty sure they are not born with worms. Probably got them while outside, or eating food from outside that had dirt on it.


That makes sense to me. I didn't think they could, just glad that that the vet caught it and we can get treatment going. I will probably end up getting him checked once or twice a year from here on out to avoid any more occurrences.


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## Meganolvt (Nov 28, 2017)

It's common for tortoises to carry worms, some are even beneficial to them. When there are times of stress or illness, the worms can really multiply and they can have too big of a load to handle. So thats probably what happened (stress from moving). Follow your vet's advice and please don't let others scare you out of taking your tort to the vet. We're not all bad, unknowledgable, or just in it for the money. Some of us do know what we're doing. Also, hello from a fellow Michigander!


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## Jay Bagley (Nov 28, 2017)

Meganolvt said:


> It's common for tortoises to carry worms, some are even beneficial to them. When there are times of stress or illness, the worms can really multiply and they can have too big of a load to handle. So thats probably what happened (stress from moving). Follow your vet's advice and please don't let others scare you out of taking your tort to the vet. We're not all bad, unknowledgable, or just in it for the money. Some of us do know what we're doing. Also, hello from a fellow Michigander!


Thanks for the feedback, gotta love this Michigan weather...28 degrees one day 55 the next LOL. I know my tortoise hates it, he's cooped up inside all day. Winter hasn't really set in yet, and I'm already looking forward to Summer. I know most vets aren't bad, the only ones I really avoid are when their opening statement is sure bring your reptile in and we'll give it a vitamin shot. Those are the only ones I really steer clear of. I really appreciate and respect what you guys set out to do for our animals.


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## Jay Bagley (Mar 21, 2018)

Didn't know if I should start a new post or update this one. Sheldon tested positive for pinworms back in November of 2017. They gave me three doses of dewormer to be given every 10 days. I also changed his substrate before the first dose. I had to bring our puppy in to get his rabies vaccination yesterday, so I thought I would bring in a sample of Sheldon's poop. I got the results back today, it tested positive again. They said it was a +4, which according to them is a very high count. He hasn't been back outside as it's been winter here. I think maybe I introduced knew substrate to quickly, I put it in after the second dose but before the third. He also has been making a weird whistling noise periodically when breathing. No nasal discharge or anything like that. Could the large gut load of pinworms cause breathing irregularities? While he eats pretty good, and has gained weight steadily, 12 more ounces over the last 20 days. There still seems to be one day a week where he's not interested in food, I think this may be due to the worms as well. I never disinfected his cage after I removed the substrate the first time, and definitely want to this time. Can anybody recommend a safe disinfectant to use? Also when I soak him he always poops in his water, are there precautions I should take with that? I worry if I don't catch him right away when he poops, he might possibly ingest more eggs or possibly have them stick to him and bring them back into his enclosure. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.


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## Meganolvt (Mar 22, 2018)

The overload of pinworms could be running him down, which could be causing mild upper respiratory symptoms. The pinworms don't go to the lungs, so it's more likely that his body is just trying to fight them, which can cause problems elsewhere. Be sure your temps are high enough, this will help combat the progression of upper respiratory problems. He needs a series of deworming again, and you should either change out substrate every time he is dewormed or just switch to newspaper during the deworming series and change that frequently. For cleaning, a bleach solution would work, but you have to rinse really really well. Bleach water solutions are only good for 24 hours too. 50/50 vinegar and water are safe, but i don't know if it kills pinworms eggs. Deworming several times, changing substrate frequently, and making sure diet and temps are right are the way to go. Don't skip any dewormings, it takes at least 6 weeks to break the pinworm life cycle. They often get these worm overloads when their temps aren't high enough, but can also get them from crickets and other insects.


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## Jay Bagley (Mar 22, 2018)

Meganolvt said:


> The overload of pinworms could be running him down, which could be causing mild upper respiratory symptoms. The pinworms don't go to the lungs, so it's more likely that his body is just trying to fight them, which can cause problems elsewhere. Be sure your temps are high enough, this will help combat the progression of upper respiratory problems. He needs a series of deworming again, and you should either change out substrate every time he is dewormed or just switch to newspaper during the deworming series and change that frequently. For cleaning, a bleach solution would work, but you have to rinse really really well. Bleach water solutions are only good for 24 hours too. 50/50 vinegar and water are safe, but i don't know if it kills pinworms eggs. Deworming several times, changing substrate frequently, and making sure diet and temps are right are the way to go. Don't skip any dewormings, it takes at least 6 weeks to break the pinworm life cycle. They often get these worm overloads when their temps aren't high enough, but can also get them from crickets and other insects.


Hey thanks for taking the time to respond. I really appreciate it. I was starting to think maybe I asked a dumb question. I will do the bleach and the water. Thank you again.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 23, 2018)

One thing in your narrative I wanted to address for anyone reading the thread: pumpkin is NOT a dewormer, however, the pumpkin SEEDS do have anthelmintic properties. But in order to take advantage of it, the seeds are dried, then ground up.


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## Jay Bagley (Mar 23, 2018)

Yvonne G said:


> One thing in your narrative I wanted to address for anyone reading the thread: pumpkin is NOT a dewormer, however, the pumpkin SEEDS do have anthelmintic properties. But in order to take advantage of it, the seeds are dried, then ground up.


Thank you for clearing that up, hopefully I didn't imply anything bad.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 23, 2018)

Jay Bagley said:


> Thank you for clearing that up, hopefully I didn't imply anything bad.


No, it's a common misconception.


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## Jay Bagley (Mar 23, 2018)

Yvonne G said:


> No, it's a common misconception.


Thanks Yvonne.[emoji4]


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## Jay Bagley (Mar 23, 2018)

I made it back from the vet they gave me the same dewormer as last time, Pancur. They also gave me another one, Strongid-t. They said one dose of Pancur, and three doses of the Strongid-t 14 days apart. Is there much of a difference between the two?


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## Meganolvt (Mar 23, 2018)

Panacur is a wide spectrum dewormer, meaning it kills several different kinds of worms, as well as protozoa like Giardia. Strongid kills things in the strongyle family, which are roundworms and pinworms (and in large animals like horses strongyles). So between the two, it should work if you change your substrate often and follow the schedule. Loose stool is normal for a day or two after deworming. And of course check your temps and other husbandry, a few pins are normal but an overload is usually because of husbandry issues (and reinfection, of course).


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## Jay Bagley (Mar 23, 2018)

Meganolvt said:


> Panacur is a wide spectrum dewormer, meaning it kills several different kinds of worms, as well as protozoa like Giardia. Strongid kills things in the strongyle family, which are roundworms and pinworms (and in large animals like horses strongyles). So between the two, it should work if you change your substrate often and follow the schedule. Loose stool is normal for a day or two after deworming.


Okay, thank you. Yeah we're going to start administering it tomorrow, I'm going to pull all the substrate out and disinfect the enclosure. Thought about just putting newspaper down for now. I probably should have asked the vet to explain the difference between the 2 they were crazy busy. Thank you for telling me the difference.


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## vladimir (Mar 26, 2018)

Jay Bagley said:


> Okay, thank you. Yeah we're going to start administering it tomorrow, I'm going to pull all the substrate out and disinfect the enclosure. Thought about just putting newspaper down for now. I probably should have asked the vet to explain the difference between the 2 they were crazy busy. Thank you for telling me the difference.



Hi Jay,

I missed this from the other day. Sorry to hear Sheldon still has worms! I need to take another sample to get Vlad tested again. He's still without proper substrate. I'm using newspaper with thicker cardboard on top, as one time I caught him trying to eat the newspaper. Just something to keep an eye out for. 

Hope Sheldon feels better!


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## Jay Bagley (Mar 26, 2018)

vladimir said:


> Hi Jay,
> 
> I missed this from the other day. Sorry to hear Sheldon still has worms! I need to take another sample to get Vlad tested again. He's still without proper substrate. I'm using newspaper with thicker cardboard on top, as one time I caught him trying to eat the newspaper. Just something to keep an eye out for.
> 
> Hope Sheldon feels better!


Hello Vlad,

Yeah he still has the worms, I think it was my doing. I could tell he was miserable without having substrate, so I introduced new substrate in between the second and third dose. It's funny you say that about the newspaper, I didn't have a problem with him eating it the first time. But this time it was only in there like 10 minutes and I heard some ripping and shredding noises and sure enough he was attacking it like he hadn't eaten in a month. So I removed that. Right now I have him down just on the wood surface, I was looking for some other ideas to use for temporary substrate. I think I will try the cardboard. Let me know how Vlad's sample comes back.


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## vladimir (Apr 3, 2018)

Hey @Jay Bagley  I was scrolling through and saw this thread and was wondering how Sheldon is doing?


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## Jay Bagley (Apr 3, 2018)

vladimir said:


> Hey @Jay Bagley  I was scrolling through and saw this thread and was wondering how Sheldon is doing?


Hey there, he seems to be doing ok. His activity level has increased quite a bit since the first dosage. He gets a second dosage on Saturday. Thank you for asking[emoji3]


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## Jay Bagley (Apr 3, 2018)

I have been having one issue while trying to deworm him. I will soak him in the morning when I get home from work right around 7:30 in the morning. He poops in his water which I wanted him to and then I go to bed. But within the 5 to 6 hours that I sleep, he still ends up pooping in his enclosure and sometimes has poop smeared on his face. So I do worry about him reinfecting himself while I am treating him.


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## vladimir (Apr 3, 2018)

Jay Bagley said:


> I have been having one issue while trying to deworm him. I will soak him in the morning when I get home from work right around 7:30 in the morning. He poops in his water which I wanted him to and then I go to bed. But within the 5 to 6 hours that I sleep, he still ends up pooping in his enclosure and sometimes has poop smeared on his face. So I do worry about him reinfecting himself while I am treating him.



Hmm, not sure what the best strategy is there. Vlad seems to mainly go in the bath when he's soaking, but recently he's had a few instances where he's gone a little bit inside his enclosure. It's usually pretty fluid, and there is not usually very much -- unlike when he goes in the tub.

I've been trying to remove any newspaper/cardboard/whatever that I notice has gotten dirty as soon as possible, but it is a concern for me as well. I'm getting ready to move him to his new enclosure in the next few weeks/months and I don't want to bring any existing issues into the new setup


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## Jay Bagley (Apr 3, 2018)

vladimir said:


> Hmm, not sure what the best strategy is there. Vlad seems to mainly go in the bath when he's soaking, but recently he's had a few instances where he's gone a little bit inside his enclosure. It's usually pretty fluid, and there is not usually very much -- unlike when he goes in the tub.
> 
> I've been trying to remove any newspaper/cardboard/whatever that I notice has gotten dirty as soon as possible, but it is a concern for me as well. I'm getting ready to move him to his new enclosure in the next few weeks/months and I don't want to bring any existing issues into the new setup


I think the majority of it is coming out in his soaking water. But since I removed his substrate, he has been so active. I'm thinking the dewormer has taken effect, and also he's just mad about the changes in his enclosure. So I don't know if all the extra walking around is helping him have more bowel movements. I tried the cardboard, and he would try digging through it. And if he got one little piece tore up, he would try to eat it. So for the time being I'm going with no substrate.


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## vladimir (Apr 3, 2018)

Jay Bagley said:


> I think the majority of it is coming out in his soaking water. But since I removed his substrate, he has been so active. I'm thinking the dewormer has taken effect, and also he's just mad about the changes in his enclosure. So I don't know if all the extra walking around is helping him have more bowel movements. I tried the cardboard, and he would try digging through it. And if he got one little piece tore up, he would try to eat it. So for the time being I'm going with no substrate.



Yeah I'm not surprised. Sheldon seems to be quite the little character  

I'd just try to clean it as soon as you notice it when you wake up - not sure if anyone else has any ideas.


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## Jay Bagley (Apr 3, 2018)

vladimir said:


> Yeah I'm not surprised. Sheldon seems to be quite the little character
> 
> I'd just try to clean it as soon as you notice it when you wake up - not sure if anyone else has any ideas.


Definitely, been cleaning it as soon as I wake up. He has this uncanny knack for doing it right underneath one of his basking bulbs. So it is just baked on by the time I wake up LOL


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## Kasia (Apr 3, 2018)

For the bedding - Old towels, t-shirts and other material scraps. He poops, pees, you put another one and throw dirty one away. Almost impossible to eat ( never say never) and easy to clean ( you don’t)


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## vladimir (Apr 3, 2018)

Ugh yeah Vladimir has been going right on his red Kane heat mat lately, so it gets to maintain a nice warm temperature  makes for fun cleanup.


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## Jay Bagley (Apr 3, 2018)

Kasia said:


> For the bedding - Old towels, t-shirts and other material scraps. He poops, pees, you put another one and throw dirty one away. Almost impossible to eat ( never say never) and easy to clean ( you don’t)


Thank you, I do have a ton of old t-shirts laying around from my skinnier days. I will give it a try.


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## Jay Bagley (Apr 3, 2018)

vladimir said:


> Ugh yeah Vladimir has been going right on his red Kane heat mat lately, so it gets to maintain a nice warm temperature  makes for fun cleanup.


lol, you aren't kidding man.


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## Markw84 (Apr 3, 2018)

Jay Bagley said:


> I have been having one issue while trying to deworm him. I will soak him in the morning when I get home from work right around 7:30 in the morning. He poops in his water which I wanted him to and then I go to bed. But within the 5 to 6 hours that I sleep, he still ends up pooping in his enclosure and sometimes has poop smeared on his face. So I do worry about him reinfecting himself while I am treating him.


The main concern is breaking the cycle of worm - egg - worm. That cycle takes about up to 4 weeks. Eggs are viable for up to 3 weeks in the environment. So, if you kill off all the adult (egg producing) worms with the first treatment, the second treatment is to kill off any eggs that were present and subsequently developed into worms and kill them before they become egg producers. A third treatment at 4 weeks also is to ensure any left over eggs that could be found by the tortoise are also killed off as by then any of the last eggs that could have survived would have become worms.

So once the adult worms have been killed, the window for eggs surviving is normally up to 3 weeks. IN our nice, perfect, incubation type chambers, that could be a bit longer. But with fresh substrate at about a week or two after first treatment, there should be no more new eggs being produced. At that point, you are trying to kill off the new young worms from any left-over eggs contracted during the first few weeks of treatment. So a complete substrate change and cleaning at about 2 weeks is what you should be looking at.


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## Jay Bagley (Apr 3, 2018)

Markw84 said:


> The main concern is breaking the cycle of worm - egg - worm. That cycle takes about up to 4 weeks. Eggs are viable for up to 3 weeks in the environment. So, if you kill off all the adult (egg producing) worms with the first treatment, the second treatment is to kill off any eggs that were present and subsequently developed into worms and kill them before they become egg producers. A third treatment at 4 weeks also is to ensure any left over eggs that could be found by the tortoise are also killed off as by then any of the last eggs that could have survived would have become worms.
> 
> So once the adult worms have been killed, the window for eggs surviving is normally up to 3 weeks. IN our nice, perfect, incubation type chambers, that could be a bit longer. But with fresh substrate at about a week or two after first treatment, there should be no more new eggs being produced. At that point, you are trying to kill off the new young worms from any left-over eggs contracted during the first few weeks of treatment. So a complete substrate change and cleaning at about 2 weeks is what you should be looking at.


Thankyou Mark for taking the time to shed a little more light on a life cycle of this parasite. Your advice is very much appreciated and will be followed.


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## Jay Bagley (May 1, 2018)

I just got a phone call from the vet, the second time around for deworming worked. His fecal came back negative.


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## vladimir (May 1, 2018)

Jay Bagley said:


> I just got a phone call from the vet, the second time around for deworming worked. His fecal came back negative.



Hooray!!! Congrats to you and Sheldon.

I actually got a sample last night from Vlad - on my way to take it for testing in a little while. Hoping for good news.


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## Jay Bagley (May 1, 2018)

vladimir said:


> Hooray!!! Congrats to you and Sheldon.
> 
> I actually got a sample last night from Vlad - on my way to take it for testing in a little while. Hoping for good news.


Thanks man!! Since the first time didn't go very well, I was dreading the worst. His activity level has increased dramatically. And so has his appetite. Good luck with Vlad's sample, definitely let us know how it turns out.[emoji16]


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## vladimir (May 1, 2018)

Jay Bagley said:


> Thanks man!! Since the first time didn't go very well, I was dreading the worst. His activity level has increased dramatically. And so has his appetite. Good luck with Vlad's sample, definitely let us know how it turns out.[emoji16]



It's must be the day for negative results! Vlad got the okay from the sample I brought down today, so we're hoping to get him moved into his new enclosure this weekend.

I'll probably do another sample in a few months to see how things are then, but I'm glad this came back negative.


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## Jay Bagley (May 1, 2018)

vladimir said:


> It's must be the day for negative results! Vlad got the okay from the sample I brought down today, so we're hoping to get him moved into his new enclosure this weekend.
> 
> I'll probably do another sample in a few months to see how things are then, but I'm glad this came back negative.


 That's awesome!! Congratulations to the both of you. Looking forward to seeing pictures of him in his new enclosure.


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## Jay Bagley (May 1, 2018)

Lucky guy[emoji4]


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## vladimir (May 1, 2018)

Thanks!




He got out in the yard to celebrate


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## Jay Bagley (May 1, 2018)

vladimir said:


> Thanks!
> 
> View attachment 237391
> 
> ...


He is looking good, what a happy tort.


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## EmilyTides (Mar 2, 2019)

Jay Bagley said:


> I just got a phone call from the vet, the second time around for deworming worked. His fecal came back negative.


 I was under the impression that it’s important for tortoises to have some worms in their system. My vet told me they act as “beneficial“ worms. So is it necessary to remove all the worms from a tortoise? And could it potentially make them sicker to remove all worms?


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## ascott (Mar 2, 2019)

EmilyTides said:


> I was under the impression that it’s important for tortoises to have some worms in their system. My vet told me they act as “beneficial“ worms. So is it necessary to remove all the worms from a tortoise? And could it potentially make them sicker to remove all worms?



Worms are necessary....I know, gross right. But there is no reason to "rid" the tortoise entirely. Even us humans have critters in our system that makes us work correctly. Also, all of the meds used to rid a tortoise of parasite/critters is a poison....so while you believe you are doing good....we are actually messing with their system....the moment a tortoise eats it is exposed to the possibility of ingesting some type critter.....just as we humans are.....a few pinworms and other critters are not enough of a hazard to force ingestion of the poisons....these are tortoise and their system needs to have a balance....


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## Stoneman (Mar 8, 2019)

Markw84 said:


> The main concern is breaking the cycle of worm - egg - worm. That cycle takes about up to 4 weeks. Eggs are viable for up to 3 weeks in the environment. So, if you kill off all the adult (egg producing) worms with the first treatment, the second treatment is to kill off any eggs that were present and subsequently developed into worms and kill them before they become egg producers. A third treatment at 4 weeks also is to ensure any left over eggs that could be found by the tortoise are also killed off as by then any of the last eggs that could have survived would have become worms.
> 
> So once the adult worms have been killed, the window for eggs surviving is normally up to 3 weeks. IN our nice, perfect, incubation type chambers, that could be a bit longer. But with fresh substrate at about a week or two after first treatment, there should be no more new eggs being produced. At that point, you are trying to kill off the new young worms from any left-over eggs contracted during the first few weeks of treatment. So a complete substrate change and cleaning at about 2 weeks is what you should be looking at.



I was just reading through the comments on here to make sure I did not repeat what you just said. Thank you for saving me the time.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jun 11, 2019)

EmilyTides said:


> I was under the impression that it’s important for tortoises to have some worms in their system. My vet told me they act as “beneficial“ worms. So is it necessary to remove all the worms from a tortoise? And could it potentially make them sicker to remove all worms?


It's normal for a lot of tortoises to have some worms. And seeing them gets a knee jerk reaction many times.

A small infestation is not harmful. But it's also not beneficial as they remove nutrients from the animal.
Killing them requires poisoning them. That's never recommended unless needed.
Every case DOES NOT require treatment. Only severe cases. When the animal is otherwise weak or ill.
Since you're in Broward like I am, I'd like to suggest Dr. K. Up at Broward Avian and Exotic in Deerfield Beach
(She has a TV show)
She's rea$onable and she is one of the VERY few vets around here that actually know squat about tortoises.
And welcome to the forum....Since I didn't notice you before.
And thanks for welcoming me to the Florida Tortoise Keepers on FACEBOOK.


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