# Leopard tortoise weight/growth rate



## Sticky Feets (Jan 21, 2018)

hi there,

I've had Hoppy (leopard tortoise) for about a month and a half now and it seems like he's only gained about 3 grams. 45 the day I got him and has been varying between 46-48. I try to weigh him after he poops cuz one night he was up to 52 and I got really excited. But then he pooped out 7 grams... He eats adequately I think...doesn't eat all day like I would assume tortoises do, but he makes massive poops every day or every other day. And I've seen his growth lines between his scutes changing colors so he must be growing.

The breeder I got him from told me his clutch was missed and was found hatching from the ground on august 12 so that makes Hop just under 5 and a half months old. I don't think the breeder had him in a closed chamber from the pictures that he showed me (open air tub) and the fact that he's a bit pyramided. I quickly switched him over to a closed chamber about a week after I got him. Temps at 80-82 and humidity 91-99. I soak him everyday and even sprinkle water onto his food to hydrate him more. I've only seen him drink once during a soak but his water dish gets tracked with dirt every day so hopefully he's drinking when I'm not watching. Hop isn't super active...he usually just hangs around the basking side of his tub and never goes to the other/darker side even though that's where the CHE is. He spends a lot of his time burrowed under some dead grass roots. But he comes out on his own when the lights come on in the mornings and depending on what food is out he may be eating more or less (tends to eat more if there's cactus...). I read that leopards are one of the slower growing species so maybe he just needs more time to gain weight? Here's some pics of when I first got him to his most recent pic so you can see his growth lines are thickening. I read in another post that it could also be parasites too so I wouldn't mind running a fecal on him, especially since he hatched underground and probably ate his moms poop.




I'm seeing new growth by the bottom of his side scutes where the black is more prominent. Also he had a bit more white coming in vertically between the scutes.


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## wellington (Jan 21, 2018)

As long as there is no loss he should be doing fine. Be sure to have food available all day long. I have 4 hatchlings born November. They eat about 4-6 times a day and sleep most of the rest of the time. About the only wondering they do is while they are headed to the food or headed back to sleep spot.


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## Tom (Jan 22, 2018)

46-48 is on the low side for that age. What is more concerning is that there isn't any growth happening, according to the scale.

If this tortoise has damaged kidneys from an overly dry start in an open topped tub and wasn't soaked often enough, it won't matter what you do after that damage was done. You can't undo the damage that was done with your excellent care. All you can do is provide the best care and conditions possible, soak daily, and hope that this is one of the ones that will pull through.

Running a fecal check is never a bad idea, but administering the wormer, if needed, can be problematic in itself.

Have you read this one?
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/


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## Markw84 (Jan 22, 2018)

Tom said:


> 46-48 is on the low side for that age. What is more concerning is that there isn't any growth happening, according to the scale.
> 
> If this tortoise has damaged kidneys from an overly dry start in an open topped tub and wasn't soaked often enough, it won't matter what you do after that damage was done. You can't undo the damage that was done with your excellent care. All you can do is provide the best care and conditions possible, soak daily, and hope that this is one of the ones that will pull through.
> /



Just to give you the good and bad of this, here is a recent experience I have:

I got some leopard hatchlings that I found out were started with a more dry routine. A respected breeder who still felt outside time was better, and too much humidity caused too much respiratory problems. (I found out this after questioning him after two of these would gain no weight). Well I definately subscribe to the 80/80 belief and all my tortoises thrive in these conditions, except these two I got from him.

When I got them, one was 29.7g and the other 33.8g. After exactly one year, they were still 46g and 55g respectively. 11 months later - after 23 months of nurturing, the second one died at 61g. Never could get any good growth, but was active and eating most all of that time. BUT.... the other started to take off suddenly. After 14 months of nuturing, the little guy still weighed only 47g. But the very next month's weigh in showed 58g! Then the next month 75g. That baby is now just over 28 months in my care and just passed the 500g mark.

So - no matter what you do and how much you coddle them with the best conditions, some will not pull through, but some can surprise you and suddenly take off after 14 months of struggling to get going.

Here's the baby the first week I got it:




Here it is today - FINALLY GROWING AND THRIVING!


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## Tom (Jan 22, 2018)

Markw84 said:


> Just to give you the good and bad of this, here is a recent experience I have:
> 
> I got some leopard hatchlings that I found out were started with a more dry routine. A respected breeder who still felt outside time was better, and too much humidity caused too much respiratory problems. (I found out this after questioning him after two of these would gain no weight). Well I definately subscribe to the 80/80 belief and all my tortoises thrive in these conditions, except these two I got from him.
> 
> ...



This is very similar to the story of my sulcata Daisy. Hardly any growth for two years and then she sprouted and caught up to "normal" size. She is now over 60 pounds at 10 years old, mean as hell, and regularly produces clutches of more than 30 eggs with high hatch rates.


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## teresaf (Jan 22, 2018)

@Peliroja32 had a baby leopard that wouldn't gain also. Bought from tortoise town I believe. Obviously raised dry at breeders. It passed away after no growth for several months. 
Now she has 3 more from a breeder here (@Will )who raised them hot and humid and they're growing weekly. even the little runt shows constant growth...you should check out her posts...


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## Team Gomberg (Jan 22, 2018)

With a similar example to @Markw84 and @Tom
I took on 10 leopard clutchmates that were started dry. Even at 6-10months old they all weighed in the 40 gram range. Over the course of a year they ate, soaked, pooped but never grew or gained weight. Eventually 9 of them died despite the good care, humid chamber etc. and only 1 survived. The remaining one stayed small for another year or so. Once he was finally over 100grams, I sold him to a gal in Arizona and still keep in touch with her.
He has been a slow grower even in her care and is still on the small side.

That's a pretty crappy ratio..1/10 to make it over the internal damage hurdle.

Anyone already with a dry started leopard, just keep at it and hope for the best.
But I can't stress enough how important it is to get a well started baby in the first place.


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## Sticky Feets (Jan 22, 2018)

Yeah I've been worrying about hatchling failure too. I didn't know about closed chambers until after I got him and the breeder told me that he wasn't pyramided...just normal growth. Hop is my first tortoise and despite all the research I did beforehand (apparently I was just reading all the old data on keeping torts in open air enclosures) guess still wasn't enough. Really wished I had found tortoiseforum before I got him. Just there never was any debate on most other sites on how to raise hatchlings. I can only enjoy him while I can and hope for the best. One pro is that he was raised outside in Florida...but still.


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## Tom (Jan 22, 2018)

Sticky Feets said:


> Yeah I've been worrying about hatchling failure too. I didn't know about closed chambers until after I got him and the breeder told me that he wasn't pyramided...just normal growth. Hop is my first tortoise and despite all the research I did beforehand (apparently I was just reading all the old data on keeping torts in open air enclosures) guess still wasn't enough. Really wished I had found tortoiseforum before I got him. Just there never was any debate on most other sites on how to raise hatchlings. I can only enjoy him while I can and hope for the best. One pro is that he was raised outside in Florida...but still.


Outside all day is not good for babies, even in FL. It makes them grow very slowly. They do better when kept mostly indoors in a closed chamber until they are larger.


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## Team Gomberg (Jan 23, 2018)

Sticky Feets said:


> Yeah I've been worrying about hatchling failure too. I didn't know about closed chambers until after I got him and the breeder told me that he wasn't pyramided...just normal growth. Hop is my first tortoise and despite all the research I did beforehand (apparently I was just reading all the old data on keeping torts in open air enclosures) guess still wasn't enough. Really wished I had found tortoiseforum before I got him. Just there never was any debate on most other sites on how to raise hatchlings. I can only enjoy him while I can and hope for the best. One pro is that he was raised outside in Florida...but still.



We get it.. But hey, you already have him and you're here now. Can't change the past.

Hopefully now you won't be so worried about the lack of growth. You now know that you are in a waiting game. Dont give up, keep at it and time will tell.
If he pulls through, great! If not, don't blame yourself. Like many others, you can do it better next time. "Better" meaning buying from the right source

I know Mark, Tom and I share these examples knowing that far more people can benefit from them than just the OP. Lots of people read these threads and if they read it often enough, maybe it can influence them to consider buying their tortoises from a good source.


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## Sticky Feets (Jan 23, 2018)

There's slim to no videos on YouTube regarding closed chambers. I think I'm gonna make one educating ppl about them and also about hatchling failure syndrome. Tom since you seem to have done the most research on this new data, mind if I include your name if I happen to mention it? I only have about 200 subscribers but it's steadily growing each week so maybe one day it'll reach some people who are planning to get a tortoise. Been trying to get the attention of another pet youtuber whose channel is bigger than mine but still small enough for him to read comments. He's got a cherry head that's showing reverse pyramiding and his shell just looks super dried out. Ive been shying away from making care videos on my pets cuz there's enough about snakes and geckos but there can definitely be more tortoise care videos on YouTube.


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## Tom (Jan 23, 2018)

Sticky Feets said:


> There's slim to no videos on YouTube regarding closed chambers. I think I'm gonna make one educating ppl about them and also about hatchling failure syndrome. Tom since you seem to have done the most research on this new data, mind if I include your name if I happen to mention it? I only have about 200 subscribers but it's steadily growing each week so maybe one day it'll reach some people who are planning to get a tortoise. Been trying to get the attention of another pet youtuber whose channel is bigger than mine but still small enough for him to read comments. He's got a cherry head that's showing reverse pyramiding and his shell just looks super dried out. Ive been shying away from making care videos on my pets cuz there's enough about snakes and geckos but there can definitely be more tortoise care videos on YouTube.



I don't mind if you mention my name, but there are lots of knowledgeable and helpful people here. I think it would be better to just mention our forum and encourage them to come here and learn from all of us.


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## Sticky Feets (Jan 25, 2018)

DONE. Can't believe I was able to film and edit this all in one afternoon, getting better at making videos. I also added links to all those useful threads in the video description.

Here's the actual video


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## Cheryl Hills (Jan 25, 2018)

Nice!


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## Ramsey (Jan 27, 2018)

Nice job. Very thorough.


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## teresaf (Jan 28, 2018)

Awesome! I wish I what's a confident on camera... We just need a few more people to do some videos.... The same information coming from unrelated sources gets recognized more.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 28, 2018)

Love the pushy dog!!!


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## Markw84 (Jan 28, 2018)

Sticky Feets said:


> Yeah I've been worrying about hatchling failure too. I didn't know about closed chambers until after I got him and the breeder told me that he wasn't pyramided...just normal growth. Hop is my first tortoise and despite all the research I did beforehand (apparently I was just reading all the old data on keeping torts in open air enclosures) guess still wasn't enough. Really wished I had found tortoiseforum before I got him. Just there never was any debate on most other sites on how to raise hatchlings. I can only enjoy him while I can and hope for the best. One pro is that he was raised outside in Florida...but still.


Another consideration I have been studying more and more...

Gut flora and the microbe balance is extremely important to overall health and growth. I just read a few studies this past week where millions of dollars are being spent on analyzing the poop of top level athletes for the microbe balance. The results are simply amazing. Without the right balance, they simply cannot preform at the same level of others. This applies at a very basic level to simple health and growth, not just recovery and performance at peak levels.

In the wild, young tortoises injest eggshell that is covered by mucous from the mother. Hatchlings also injest poop from the mother as well as being surrounded by dirt in the nest the mother watered down extensively in digging the nest. I believe that does a ton towards beginning to establish the proper gut flora and microbe levels in a hatchling.

I know @Tom and I put eggshells from the mother in the brooder box for hatchlings to nibble on when first hatched. I also puposely expose some of my hatchlings to the mother's poop in bits. We are helping that gut flora get established.

I can't help but believe that some of the common problems with "failure to grow" also can come from too sterile an environment for the hatchling that is never exposed to these natural sources of beneficial and needed microbes. Some breeders wash the eggs before placing in the incubator. The hatchlings are then put in a clean new area to start their life. Many are sold and live in a new area by themelves with never any exposure to the possible sources of beneficial microbes needed for even basic organ fuction.

I believe @zovick is a believer in providiing beneficial bacteria - probiotic for reptiles.

There may be a great value here we are missing??? Thoughts??


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## zovick (Jan 28, 2018)

Markw84 said:


> Another consideration I have been studying more and more...
> 
> Gut flora and the microbe balance is extremely important to overall health and growth. I just read a few studies this past week where millions of dollars are being spent on analyzing the poop of top level athletes for the microbe balance. The results are simply amazing. Without the right balance, they simply cannot preform at the same level of others. This applies at a very basic level to simple health and growth, not just recovery and performance at peak levels.
> 
> ...



Hi Mark,

Yes, I have posted on the TFO a couple of times about my periodic use of Avian/Reptile Bene-Bac which comes in powder and paste forms. As you say, it is a probiotic for reptiles (and birds).

Regarding the shells from hatched eggs and even from eggs which have failed to hatch (and aren't rotten), I give those to the mothers rather than the babies. I feel the babies are better able to eat and metabolize Ultrafine Rep-Cal, but that is just another take on the "what to do with egg shells" idea.


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## Markw84 (Jan 28, 2018)

zovick said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> Yes, I have posted on the TFO a couple of times about my periodic use of Avian/Reptile Bene-Bac which comes in powder and paste forms. As you say, it is a probiotic for reptiles (and birds).
> 
> Regarding the shells from hatched eggs and even from eggs which have failed to hatch (and aren't rotten), I give those to the mothers rather than the babies. I feel the babies are better able to eat and metabolize Ultrafine Rep-Cal, but that is just another take on the "what to do with egg shells" idea.


Thanks for your input, Bill. I was referring to the eggshell for the hatchling in the context of the microbe load it may carry more than for calcium content. But, yes - great way to recycle that calcium!!


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## zovick (Jan 28, 2018)

Markw84 said:


> Thanks for your input, Bill. I was referring to the eggshell for the hatchling in the context of the microbe load it may carry more than for calcium content. But, yes - great way to recycle that calcium!!



It seems I didn't pick up on that beneficial microbe load on the egg shells as your reason for feeding them. Upon my first reading of the post I thought it was meant for the calcium they contained, but since you mentioned microbes, it started me thinking. There could also be the possibility of bacteria from outside of the mother in the soil or nesting medium, plus parasite eggs or oocysts from the mother on those same egg shells along with any beneficial bacteria.

Just playing the devil's advocate there.


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## Tom (Jan 28, 2018)

Markw84 said:


> Another consideration I have been studying more and more...
> 
> Gut flora and the microbe balance is extremely important to overall health and growth. I just read a few studies this past week where millions of dollars are being spent on analyzing the poop of top level athletes for the microbe balance. The results are simply amazing. Without the right balance, they simply cannot preform at the same level of others. This applies at a very basic level to simple health and growth, not just recovery and performance at peak levels.
> 
> ...



I don't disagree with you Mark, and the topic is worth exploring, but there are some observations that contradict this theory.

Do you remember when they started selling the "starter" bacteria for people to put in their fishtanks to "head start" the nitrite cycle and speed up the slow process? At that time I was literally elbow deep in fish tanks, and I thought this was an amazing idea! After using the product and seeing no discernible difference, I decided to set up identical tanks and do an experiment. I did one tank my conventional way with no added "biological stuff" except the light fish load, another with the new product and another using all the water from an established and cycled tank. I did this multiple times with multiple bacterial seeding products, and in both fresh and salt tanks. There was no discernible difference. Water parameters took the same 6 weeks to stabilize. I'd get low nitrate readings from the tanks with the "used" water, but nitrates wouldn't increase until about 5-6 weeks had gone by, which was when the other two tanks would start showing slight nitrate increases. Imagine that! Me doing side by side experiments!

Back to tortoises: Because of my practice of leaving the eggs dirty and letting hatchlings nibble not their shells, I think any baby that I hatch should be eliminated from contention in this next bit. Lots of breeders start their babies the "sterile" way, and at least some percentage of their babies develop a healthy gut flora and fauna and they thrive and grow just as well as any of my babies with no "seeding" of any kind. I think that just like my "sterile" fish tanks with nothing added, all of these beneficial bacteria exist in the environment, and given the correct living conditions, the tortoises all pick them up and flourish whether or not we intentionally seed them with these bacteria.

My wife is into the whole holistic and alternative medicine stuff. Some of it really works, like when she administers Arnica cream after a dog bite or motocross crash. The difference is astounding. She started making me take some fancy pro-biotics on a daily basis, and I see no difference. I've been taking them for a couple of years, and there is no change in anything. Sometimes I'll stop taking them for a few weeks just to see what happens and… nothing happens.

Overall, my opinion on this particular matter, based on what I've seen (Which is admittedly limited.) is that these products will do no harm, and in some cases might offer some benefit. But in my experience, they aren't the panacea they are made out to be.

Now I'd really like to hear the conversation where the scientists asked for the athlete's poo. "Uh… excuse me... Mr. Bolt? Can I ask you something…"


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## Tom (Jan 28, 2018)

More notes for the thread: All of my sulcata Mom's deposit poop in each nest they dig. I know because I find it with my hand every time I dig up a nest.

Don Williams of CTTC and desert tortoise fame has a video that he showed me of a hatchling DT emerging from its nest. It walked straight over to a dried up pile of its mother's poo and began munching away. We are talking about seconds after emerging.


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## Markw84 (Jan 28, 2018)

zovick said:


> It seems I didn't pick up on that beneficial microbe load on the egg shells as your reason for feeding them upon my first reading of the post, but since you mentioned that, it started me thinking. There could also be the possibility of parasite eggs or oocysts from the mother on those same egg shells along with any beneficial bacteria.
> 
> Just playing the devil's advocate there.


Agree completely. However, some "parasites" are good and beneficial. IF the mother is good and healthy, I believe what she would be passing on - the good would far outweigh the possible bad. Where else can a hatchling in captivity get exposure to the needed microbe starters? So many of us keep several speciemens and microbe exposure is much easier. I can easily see a breeder being cautious and clean, and then selling a lone hatchling to a new keeper who puts it in an environment that never has many of these microbes - creating a recipe for a struggling hatchling.


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## Markw84 (Jan 28, 2018)

Tom said:


> I don't disagree with you Mark, and the topic is worth exploring, but there are some observations that contradict this theory.
> 
> Do you remember when they started selling the "starter" bacteria for people to put in their fishtanks to "head start" the nitrite cycle and speed up the slow process? At that time I was literally elbow deep in fish tanks, and I thought this was an amazing idea! After using the product and seeing no discernible difference, I decided to set up identical tanks and do an experiment. I did one tank my conventional way with no added "biological stuff" except the light fish load, another with the new product and another using all the water from an established and cycled tank. I did this multiple times with multiple bacterial seeding products, and in both fresh and salt tanks. There was no discernible difference. Water parameters took the same 6 weeks to stabilize. I'd get low nitrate readings from the tanks with the "used" water, but nitrates wouldn't increase until about 5-6 weeks had gone by, which was when the other two tanks would start showing slight nitrate increases. Imagine that! Me doing side by side experiments!
> 
> ...


I love the dialogue!!

I too did some side by sides on nitrifying bacteria. I did not see results with store bought "starter bacteria". However, I saw dramatic results using the same old filter pads from an established filter and placing them in the new filter on the new tank and on new ponds. Specific bacteria loads already established for my unique area, water chemistry, temperatures, etc, etc. My point is that we are find microbe loads are quite specific in the way they develop and specialize. What works best is introducing microbes that are already established for that specific circumstance. A mother's poop. (or breast milk). An eggshell from the mother. Even poop from another tortoise of the same clade.

Our bodies have 23 pairs of chromosomes - so 46 chromosome that contain about 22,000 genes. That is what makes us who we are. HOWEVER - there are several million genes inside us that are all the different microbes that are also necessary for us to live. There are microbes that eat lactic acid. In endurance runners this load becomes huge and allows them to function at levels others cannot. There are microbes that break down most all food items to molecules the body can actually use. Microbes that allow some food items to become useful and not dangerous to some species while other species without that would find that food useless or even harmful. Here is an excerpt from an article I recently read:

_*In adult humans, bone mineral density is 50 to 80 percent heritable (*__*9*__*). For quite some time, heritable traits were thought to be only passed on from parent to offspring through DNA. We now know that vertical transmission of microbes occurs at birth—as a baby passes through the mother’s birth canal, he or she acquires crucial microbes that shape the composition of their gut microbiota (*__*5*__*). It’s possible that in addition to the heritable traits encoded by our own genetics, additional determinants of our bone health are acquired based on our microbial inheritance.*_

So, there is evidence showing that the need to acquire the correct microbial balance for a particular species is certainly a consideration.


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## Sticky Feets (Jan 28, 2018)

Markw84 said:


> Another consideration I have been studying more and more...
> 
> Gut flora and the microbe balance is extremely important to overall health and growth. I just read a few studies this past week where millions of dollars are being spent on analyzing the poop of top level athletes for the microbe balance. The results are simply amazing. Without the right balance, they simply cannot preform at the same level of others. This applies at a very basic level to simple health and growth, not just recovery and performance at peak levels.
> 
> ...



Mark that's why I'm still hopeful for my little guy. He was hatched from the ground. The breeder saw a hatchling Leo walking across his yard one day and eventually found a clutch that he never discovered. I don't know specifically if all the babies from that clutch were already hatched by the time he found the eggs but I'm hoping that he got some poop in his system before he was collected


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## Markw84 (Jan 28, 2018)

Sticky Feets said:


> Mark that's why I'm still hopeful for my little guy. He was hatched from the ground. The breeder saw a hatchling Leo walking across his yard one day and eventually found a clutch that he never discovered. I don't know specifically if all the babies from that clutch were already hatched by the time he found the eggs but I'm hoping that he got some poop in his system before he was collected



A ground hatch would certainly be good for microbe exposure but potentially bad for early dehydration.


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## Tom (Jan 28, 2018)

Markw84 said:


> _*We now know that vertical transmission of microbes occurs at birth—as a baby passes through the mother’s birth canal, he or she acquires crucial microbes that shape the composition of their gut microbiota (*__*5*__*). It’s possible that in addition to the heritable traits encoded by our own genetics, additional determinants of our bone health are acquired based on our microbial inheritance.*_
> 
> So, there is evidence showing that the need to acquire the correct microbial balance for a particular species is certainly a consideration.



What about C-section babies? Is there any study that shows they are somehow at a disadvantage since they did not acquire these microbes from the birth canal?


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## Markw84 (Jan 28, 2018)

Tom said:


> What about C-section babies? Is there any study that shows they are somehow at a disadvantage since they did not acquire these microbes from the birth canal?


Yes. Quite a bit of study now. All fairly recent. My little sister is quite involved in all of this in her research and I get pretty interesting stuff.

Here's one excerpt:

_"A baby's __microbiome__ — something that will shape their health for the entirety of their life — starts forming as soon as the birth process begins. And scientists are learning that how exactly a baby is born has a big impact on the the way its microbiome functions.

Human microbiomes are always in flux, influenced by environment and genes. A team of researchers says babies pick up bacteria as they pass through the birth canal. But what about those infants delivered by C-section?

"We still don't know what are the health consequences but it sounds like [they're] adaptive," says Maria Gloria Dominguez-Bello, an assistant professor in the Department of Medicine at the NYU School of Medicine, "Every time you you cheat nature there seems to be a collateral cost that we pay."

Babies who are born naturally pick up bacteria from their mother's birth canal. But babies who are born via C-section don't get their first bout of bacteria from their mothers. Instead, they pick it up from the room they're born in. 

"When a C-section baby is born and is not exposed to vaginal fluids what they pick up is skin, like bacteria, human skin," says Dominguez-Bello, "We did a study swabbing the operating room, which normally is incredibly clean ... but there are some sites like the walls of the operating room, the ventilation grids, the top of the huge lamps that the surgeons have. If you swab there there is some dust. We did studies of that dust and we demonstrated there are skin flakes there and those flakes have bacteria so we think the built environment is feeding the newborn that is born by C-section."

When C-section babies miss the chance to pick up bacteria from their mother's birth canal, they aren't exposed to some bacteria that help them digest milk. Dominguez-Bello wanted to see if there was a way to restore the missing bacteria.

She and her team conducted an experiment in which they placed a tampon-like gauze in the birth canal of C-section mothers. Then, after the C-section baby was delivered, they exposed the baby to the gauze. 

"The first thing we did within the first two minutes after they cut the umbilical was swab the baby's mouth and then the face and rest of the body," Dominguez-Bello says. 

As it turns out, the babies exposed to their mother's bacteria with these experiments had much of their microbiome restored."
_
So, no matter how clean we keep our tortoise nurseries, there is still some substantial microbe picked up to start the system. However, that would be different than would be ingested with eggshell or mother's poo. And it takes time, so a hatchling sold and sent where not tortoise microbiome existed is at a severe disadvantage it would seem.


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