# What can stunt a tortoises growth?



## JeffG (May 2, 2011)

Hi everyone. I am really enjoying this forum. I am hoping someone can explain to me why one of my female leopard tortoises is growing unbelievably slow. 

I will give you the history of the two females I got as hatchlings in 2005. They were both just a couple weeks old when I got them. They were about the size of a silver dollar. One was slightly bigger than the other, but not enough to even be relevant. They came from a local breeder that breeds lots of tortoises and other reptiles. The two of them have been kept together since day one, so everything should be the same for both of them. They were kept inside for the first 3 years. During this time, there was one occasion when the door on their front opening enclosure was left open by mistake. We were gone for a few hours, and when we came home it was discovered that the enclosure was open, and one of the tortoises was gone!

We quickly found the tortoise in the back yard. It had gotten there because our boxer had taken it out of the enclosure, carried it down stairs, through the doggy door, and into the yard. The poor thing was hurt and scared. The dog is not bad, and she didn't try to kill the tort, she just took her outside and chewed on her a little bit. Her injuries were not horrible, but there are very small pieces of her plastron missing, and some teeth marks on her carapace. She never got infected or anything. I put a topical antibiotic on the wounds for a week or two, and they seemed to heal pretty well. She just kind of slept for about a week, but she never stopped eating. She is a tough little tortoise.

The reason that the dog took the one that she did was because the other tort was already too big for her to pick up in her mouth. That is significant because the small tortoise was already growing slower than the big one before this happened. To avoid going on for ever, here is a picture of the two girls from a few days ago. They hatched within one week of each other.




Why would one of these female leopard tortoises grow so much faster than the other? The big one is definitely the dominate one, but I never really saw her being "mean" to the little one. She was just always the first one to the food etc. I always fed them more than they could eat just to make sure that there was food left for the little girl after the big one got done.

I have had them separated for about two months hoping that the poor little girl will grow without the stress of the big girl in her life. They are both still outside, just not able to get to each other. Is there a reason why the little girl is so small? I am guessing that she may never get to a normal size. No matter what, she will always have a home here. I just want to make sure there is nothing else I should be doing for her.

Thanks for taking the time to read my rambling post!


----------



## ALDABRAMAN (May 2, 2011)

WOW, What a size difference. I am not sure what to say, I have seen tortoises from the same clutch grow at different rates, but it looks like in your case it is extreme. I wish you the best, maybe a more scientific minded member can provide a better answer, I am interested also.


----------



## Michael Bird (May 2, 2011)

I'm certainly not an expert, but it looks to me like you have a dwarf leopard tortoise. Dwarfism can happen in just about any animal species (including humans). I've never heard of it happening in tortoises but I don't see why it couldn't...


----------



## Neal (May 2, 2011)

I've seen this with a few leopards, on of my males is about the same age (maybe from the same local breeder)...not sure why it happens, could be a lot of things...my first thoughts are that your 6 year old 11 incher is pretty big for that age. Maybe the bigger one is just a faster grower than the other one. They all grow at different rates so I wouldn't be too concerned that they are so different in size, some tortoises are just smaller than others like people.

I think separating them is a great idea, what type of foods do you offer them? Have you considered Mazuri?

If she doesn't grow much more, maybe we could work out a breeding loan with my small male and have them make some tiny babies.


----------



## Tom (May 2, 2011)

Many times when I see this, I attribute it to being kept too dry when they are first hatched. This is pretty common with sulcatas. What is difficult to explain is why it only affects some of them, when all of them received the same care. I guess its the same with people. When a group of people are stranded with no water, not everyone succumbs at the same time. Some people just dehydrate slower. Same with the torts. There could be all sorts of contributing factors even in the same enclosure. Some prefer to sleep outside the hide box. In the case of my sulcatas the ones that sleep in the hide box more often, grow faster and show less signs of pyramiding. Here's a thread I did explaining this in more detail.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Hatchling-Failure-Syndrome#axzz1LEPhadoU


----------



## Laura (May 2, 2011)

i would guess bullying by the bigger one even if you dont see it.. more food, better place under lights. heat, etc..

but that wouldnt explain it all..


----------



## bikerchicspain (May 2, 2011)

I have my own theory,

After years of observing and studying reptiles i have seen that there is a pecking order, 

Its very similar to the forces, you have the highest rank right down to private, 
the highest rank being the most dominant male or female who eats first and has the best basking spot, then it goes down in rank until it gets to the private which is the smallest and weakest, they get any food that is left if any and very little basking time, hence the private growing at a slower rate.

I have two beardies at work both from the same clutch, they were housed together. The big dominant one is a male and is about twice the size of the other beardie,
Since we have separated them the smaller one is slowly catching up with the other beardie in size,

I have found that with my torts they too have a pecking order when it comes to eating, the largest and most dominant goes and sits on the food and lets the others eat around her, when they have gone she will then move and eat all the food that was under her, The smallest of torts waits until the larger ones have gone to sleep before approaching the food dish, They also get the worst basking spot.

That is probably why you have one larger than the other!


----------



## dmarcus (May 3, 2011)

Very interesting, what a difference and I have learned something new today..


----------



## GBtortoises (May 3, 2011)

I currently have a truly "dwarf" Eastern Hermann's that is currently about 2.25" scl and was born in 2008. Based on average growth of my hatchlings this one should be around 4-5" instead. It was part of a clutch with 3 siblings that as far as I know, have grown normally (they're no longer here). It had the exact same exposure to all resources that my others have that have grown at normal rates. It is otherwise normal looking and acting in every single way, except for it's size. It has been and still is kept with tortoises that are twice it's size. There has been no food competition or other aggression from it's cage mates.
True dwarfism exists in several, possibly all, species of of living things. While some may be a result of natural environmental conditions. I don't think this can be said of animals that are kept in ideal controlled captive conditions. 
Pictures of said tortoise:










"Bullying" (the seemingly new catchphrase) would doubtfully inhibit growth in tortoises. They have a extremely strong instinct of survival. It may cause stress and it may cause physical injury, but not dwarfism. If it were to become so bad that they absolutely could not get to food they would die of starvation or malnutrition, not simply have stunted growth. In truth, tortoises don't "bully", each other, a dominant individual will usually emerge in a group or pair. That is a very good reason to either keep a group of several or keep them solitary. A pair kept together, in any combination is rarely a good idea. Dominance, despite people's concern, is perfectly natural and normal in the animal kingdom, tortoises included. Where it becomes a problem is when tortoises are kept in too close of quarters like many captive situations.
In a group situation I make every attempt to provide at least a couple of feeding spots so that any of the submissive tortoises in a group can move to another feeding area if pushed out of the way. Or in the case of several very young tortoises I spread the food out on a large diameter plate, giving them lots of feeding areas.


----------



## Jacqui (May 3, 2011)

I too, have a situation where one Leopard grew much faster then it's sibling. I also was given one which also never grew, while it's hatch mate grew quite well. I seem to hear about it happening more often with Leopards then I do most other species. Not sure if that is actually factual or just chance reporting.

I know mine were raised with several food sites, plenty of room, no obvious dominance displays, ect. I separated him and yet his growth is so slow, it's like almost none at all. He even was given the choice food tidbits. 

I go with the theory that some of us are just meant to be smaller.


----------



## CtTortoiseMom (May 3, 2011)

So now am wondering if my Leo's growth is stunted! She is about 6 and measures 8.5 SCL. Your big one is impressive! I love this thread because you got some great feedback from true experts!


----------



## GBtortoises (May 3, 2011)

CtTortoiseMom said:


> So now am wondering if my Leo's growth is stunted! She is about 6 and measures 8.5 SCL. Your big one is impressive! I love this thread because you got some great feedback from true experts!



At six years old and 8.5" yours has probably grown more at a rate that it would have in the wild. Most tortoises born and raised in captivity typicall grow larger in a shorter period of time than in the wild due to lack of environmental adversities in captivity. There is nothing wrong with either growth rate as long as the result is a healthy, "normal" looking tortoise. I gauge the growth and appearance of my captive born tortoises on the long term wild caught adults that I have. If I can raise them to be similar in appearance and health to my wild caught tortoise I consider myself doing well.


----------



## Neal (May 3, 2011)

CtTortoiseMom said:


> So now am wondering if my Leo's growth is stunted! She is about 6 and measures 8.5 SCL. Your big one is impressive! I love this thread because you got some great feedback from true experts!



That is somewhat in line with a couple of leopards I have raised. Personally I wouldn't expect to see an 10+ inch leopard that wasn't at least 8 years old.


----------



## Yvonne G (May 3, 2011)

Hi Jeff:

In my opinion, its a dominance issue. I feel pretty sure that if you set the smaller tortoise up by itself, it will start to grow at a more normal pace. You don't see any visual signs of dominance, but its there none-the-less.


----------



## Jacqui (May 3, 2011)

emysemys said:


> Hi Jeff:
> 
> In my opinion, its a dominance issue. I feel pretty sure that if you set the smaller tortoise up by itself, it will start to grow at a more normal pace. You don't see any visual signs of dominance, but its there none-the-less.



See that is what I thought with my own leopards, but even living all by himself, the growth did not happen like it did with it's sibling. That's why with mine, I say it wasn't a dominance thing, because once it was separated, it should have grown "normally".


----------



## Tom (May 3, 2011)

I have seen and heard that Mazuri will often help in a case like this too. Daisy my sulcata hardly grew at all in her first two years. She came from the typical "dry" routine and was heavily pyramided when I got her at three months old. I started, and gradually increased he humidity and hydration level over a period of several months until conditions got swampy in her enclosure. She was my first guinea pig and you can still see the gradual improvement in her growth in her growth rings. Its one of my favorite things to show people. She was still very small at two years old. I started feeding her Mazuri a couple of times a week about a year ago and she went from around 400 grams to over 2000 grams in a year. All the new growth is totally smooth too. By contrast, my EOP babies from last year hit 400 grams at 10-11 months old.

I can't say with scientific certainty that the Mazuri is the only reason for her growth spurt, but it most certainly is a big contributor to it. I've heard similar stories from other tortoise keepers.


----------



## JeffG (May 3, 2011)

Thank you everyone for such detailed responses. I guess this is not something that can be explained definitively. It is likely one of the things mentioned, or a combination of them. At least she looks and acts perfectly normal (except for the permanent damage done by the dog).

Tom mentioned that keeping them too dry as hatchlings could be a factor, and I definitely did that based on what I have learned since. 


Neal, I have never fed Mazuri, although I do have some on order. I have not been able to find it available locally yet. Is it only available online?

Yvonne, I have no doubt that what you said about a pecking order is valid, but I am guessing that this alone would not result in such a drastic difference. If it did, wouldn't this degree of difference be more common?

I realize that bullying can have a major affect on animals even if it is not witnessed. This is a very likely factor here.

If I had my choice of a cause I would probably pick dwarfism as the most desirable reason for this. Assuming that it is genetically passed on, I think it would be great if we could produce "tiny" leopards that were perfectly healthy in every way. That would be pretty hard to prove unless there was another confirmed dwarf to breed with her though.

I wasn't sure if the early life trauma could be a possible factor. Since no one mentioned that at all, does that mean that it probably has nothing to do with it?

One last question. Assuming that this girl is not a dwarf, is there a chance that she could ever breed without getting to the normal breeding size? I know size is generally much more important than age, but if she is 6" at 10 years old, could she possibly be sexually mature? Just curious.

Thanks again everyone!


----------



## Maggie Cummings (May 3, 2011)

I think it's obvious she had been bullied. 2 months is not long enough to see if she's going to grow normally. I would offer her Mazuri a few times a week and add Spring Mix to the graze she is on. But I would continue to keep them separated. She will grow, it's just going to take a bit and 2 months is not nearly long enough for her growth to catch up...

and that degree of difference is very common when an animal has been bullied.


"bullying" is not a new catch phrase, Yvonne and I have seen it and talked about it for years on this and other forums and list serves. Possibly it is more obvious in Sulcata and desert tortoises than in Mediterranean species, but it's not new to us.

Mental bullying is also something that happens when a keeper says that he never sees any bullying.


----------



## Neal (May 3, 2011)

Not sure about being able to breed, I would think if she didn't grow, you may have a problem with finding a male that is size compatible with her. 

No store sell mazuri around here to my knowledge. I believe some local breeders might have some for resale. My "dwarf" male does not eat it, so I can't say if it will encourage new growth or not.


----------



## dmmj (May 3, 2011)

I was gonna suggest to much coffee and cigarettes.


----------

