# VitaShell...i'm saying...YES



## loogielv (Feb 5, 2009)

Look, before you flame me, I've been doing research on it and I have a pretty good understanding of how it works and why people dont like it. 

I would also like to say, I do not care about vitashell to make my tort's shell "pretty". I couldn't care less actually. I am interested in the repairing aspects of it. So if your tort's shell is perfect, dont use stuff just to make it shinier. it's just not worth it.

Let me debate w/ myself. I like to do that. I do alot to myself. I like that too. I used to be a car salesman, and we had a term for people who said no. they didn't say no, they just had an objection. You had to overcome that objection. "i can't afford it" "what if i can get it into your monthly budget?" etc.

You will quickly see that one thing overcomes almost all objections. ALMOST.

*Objection:* A shell needs to breath. The lotion can impede the pores, blocking UV rays or even blocking air. 
*Overcoming the objection:* A thorough cleaning of the shell before AND after the vitashell application. This is crucial anyway. Anyone just rubbing anything on a turtle and leaving it is insane anyway. The easiest way is to clean the shell, dry it off, apply the vita shell and let it dry for several minutes. I mean DRY, but not longer than 10 minutes. Then, you rinse the vitashell off really well, cleaning w/ a rag as you go. I usually give the tort a 20 min bath, do the vitashell thing, change the water while its drying, then the tort gets another bath in warm water. The reason for letting the vita shell is two fold 1) to fully condition the shell and 2) it's easier to rinse off when it's dry. 

*Objection:* Bacteria can get caught under the lotion in the creases and grooves. If there's shell damage you could really be asking for trouble if its get stuck in a crack.
*Overcoming the objection*: Again, a good thorough cleaning, complete with rubbing it dry with a rag and then another bath AFTER rinsing the vita shell clean is super important. Trying to rinse the vitashell wet makes it tremendously harder, so let it dry. I also use a toothbrush to apply the vitashell and then to help rinse between the cracks.

*Objection:* If it's not found in the wild...
*Overcoming the objection:* You dont find IVs in the wild or vets or dewormers either. Torts dont take baths every other day in the wild either. Science takes this hobby to new heights. I am in NO WAY saying vitashell is a science, nor am I comparing it to veterinary medicine. I am comparing the fact that neither is found in the wild. If your tort's shell is in perfect condition, or in terrible condition, i wouldn't use vitashell. Either no need, or you need medicine (also is not found in the wild..but shell rot certainly is found in the wild) but if its like my tort where there was once shell rot and possibly a scuffle with a dog and exposed white spots and dry cracks and was without uv for at least a year, if not 3, then yah, I'd say conditioning the shell isn't a terrible idea. (read my poor guy's story at http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-5878.html LOTS of pics)

*Objection:* (this is actually a good one) You need soap to remove oils and wax totally.
*Overcoming the objection:* Some of the ingredients listed on the product are indeed oils (sunflower, soybean and palm oils, as well as "emulsifying wax nf") as well as the usual other stuff in lotions that makes it chemically..lotion. However with a good scrubbing, a good rubbing a good drying, and 2 good washings, there's no reason you can't get _*almost*_ everything off that wasn't absorbed. Ooh, our next point, almost same as the first...

*Objection*: "Absorbed you say Loogie? well there's the problem. it's been absorbed, its now in the shell, in the pores, blocking stuff and moisturizing. It's blasphemy!" 
*Overcoming the objection:* Look, you're right, there is going to be some left on the shell. It's inevitable. And if you rubbed majority of it off, the only parts that could probably be left would be the insides of cracks, pores, separations etc. (the use of the rag will minimize this even further) but that's doesn't mean its not good for the shell. Torts get covered in dirt too. YOu think dirt is good for a shell or wont clog pores? What about mud? Hell, torts bury themselves in dirt for weeks on end! Even damp and humid dirt. 
The use of this stuff sparingly, based on the condition of the shell would be priority number 1. Use it too much and you'll be sorry. Use ANYTHING too much and you'll be sorry. you know that awesome diet you spent months perfecting and your tort LOVES? use only that and you'll be sorry. variety!
You know that substrate that was nice and clean 3 months ago? You better change it, or you'll be sorry. Clean!
You know that porn video you downloaded and can't stop watching? ok bad example. Porn!

edit: sorry, got too excited and click "post". my point being is there is IMO absolute benefits to using vitashell (again, IMO) but everyday, or even every other day is or anything more than once a week is too much. My tort JUST came to me and i'm deeply concerned with this shell. After having him looked at, all of the rot is old and most likely caused by dog bites or similar. I want to make sure he's on the way to any recovery if there's a need. He's gotten 3 treatments in just over a week, and starting next week, he'll be down to 1 a week.

Also, my personality is based of humor. I love to laugh and I enjoy making jokes..apparently as the wrong times..according to my wife. There was some "tongue-in-cheek" in this post and probably 99% of my future posts too. I dont mean to offend, I dont take life too seriously, unless we're talking life, seriously.

I enjoy a good debate so please, express your opinions and believe me, I pride myself on being open minded. I will listen and I can be swayed if points are valid. True story: I get bored and debate with myself sometimes to see if I could prove both sides, and, I swear this on my children, I actually debated abortion with myself and I ended up switching my own view. I swear that is true!


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## Millerlite (Feb 5, 2009)

some people use vitashell some people dont, we are a forum that gives out help, we cant force everyone to take the advice and listen. ITs like UVB or any other debate.. people believe what they believe and do what they want to do, cant control everyone.


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## Yvonne G (Feb 5, 2009)

The part of your argument about the "pores": since there are no pores on a tortoise's shell, this is a non-argument. The reason you don't want to have a film of any kind of substance on your tortoise's shell is because the shell is 90% of his body, and if dirt and oils stick to the shell it might cause overheating. You can paint your toenails and you can paint your tortoise's toenails...but you CAN'T paint 90% of his body. Since you feel that you are removing most of the product, then that's a non-issue too. However, the only place on the shell that any kind of product would make any difference is on the new growth in between the scutes. This is the only place where anything can be absorbed and softened. Once that hardens, it's hard and non-absorptive.

Yvonne


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## TKCARDANDCOIN (Feb 5, 2009)

I have used vitashell a few times over the years on a number of my torts.Not just on the shell but sometimes on the skin.It can do wonders for dry skin.As for the shell I have used it a few times during a soak when the shell was a little dull.I would put a little dab on an old toothbrush(soft bristle) and gently scrub the shell.After a few minutes I would wipe it away with a warm wash cloth and the shells never looked better.It is a great product if used sparingly to revitalize a dry shell or dry skin.I guess it is up to the individual but I see no harm.Oh well, to each his own.tom.


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## tortelini (Feb 5, 2009)

I am always up for a good debate....(IF it was me, I would take emysemy's advise without question) As for my opinion, I think that sometimes we buy products that say they are supposed to do us good and trust that these "experts or companies" have our well being in mind when in fact it's just to make money. When it comes to products used on humans, there are much stricter rules as to what can and can't be used...however, pet products do not have these rules. I don't trust pet products. C'mon they sell cedar chips at the pet store and they are toxic to most animals!!! 

Here are the ingredients in VitaShell:

PURIFIED SOFTENED WATER, SUNFLOWER OIL(retains moisture)
EMULCIFYING WAX AND CETYL ALCOHOL(these two just hold everything together)COCONUT OIL, PALM OIL, SOYBEAN OIL, OLIVE OIL, GLYCERINE, LANOLIN, AND COTTONSEED OIL(these have vitamins but mostly used as emollients) STEARAMIDOPROPYL DIMETHYLAMINE LACTATE(used in hair gel, has not been tested in for cosmetic safety), PROTIEN CONDITIONERS(known to make hair stronger but also makes it brittle if used often), DIASOLIDINYL UREA(is an antimicrobial preservative used in cosmetics-was recently re-classified by the International Agency for Research on Cancer to its highest toxic class, IARC 1 (known human carcinogen).) ROSEMARY OIL(antioxidant containing caffeic acid...high doses of which caused stomach papillomas(tumors) in rats) METHYLPARABEN (used in deodorant-parabens are used as preservatives-they are also linked to breast cancer as parabens mimic the action of oestrogen and oestrogen can drive the growth of human breast tumors.PROPYLPARABEN(another paraben, mostly used in cigarettes to "prevent spoilage") FD and C yellow #6 

*this stuff sounds real healthy eh!!

Both the carapace and the plastron of a tortoise or turtle is comprised of living tissue (unlike a fingernail). The keratin and bony layers contain millions of microscopic pores. I think you are fooling yourself by thinking you can wash this stuff off enough to keep it from clogging pores etc. Most of those emollients are oil based, meaning they don't clean up with water which is why we use them for our skin and why your tortoises shell is still shiny even after you WASH IT ALL OFF!


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Feb 5, 2009)

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-3245.html 

there is already a thread on this subject.


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## TKCARDANDCOIN (Feb 5, 2009)

Dani, the main ingredient is purified water!Also do you sprinkle calcium or vitamins on your torts food? The next time you do take a look at the ingredients that make up your calcium or vitamin supplements.Or the next time you reach for a cold pop or shampoo when you wash your hair!Almost everything we eat,drink or use in our daily lives contains ingredients that could harm us or cause cancer in large doses over an extended period of time.My point is, if used in moderation it is harmless!Who does'nt like to look at a tort with a pretty shell?Even simple mineral oil has tocopherols for a stabalizer.I have used vitashell for years, not often, but i use it.I have never had a problem with it and I hope I never do.These threads are great for the simple fact I learn something new every time I read a new post...Anyway, nice debate!You did have some good points.Take care,Tom.


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## tortelini (Feb 5, 2009)

Tom, I concede that moderation is most likely harmless, and we all like to see our animals look shiny and healthy, but the question is whether it is GOOD for the tort...whether it will help heal a torts damaged shell. I think using VitaShell is potentially a lot more hazardouse than feeding a healthy diet in which they get all their necessary vitamins. 

And no, I do not give calcium supplements or vitamins to my torts, horses, or children.


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## Millerlite (Feb 5, 2009)

If you clean your tortoise shell with water and a brush, you can get it pretty clean. There is no need for it to be shiny, they arnt a car, or an object you keep polished, its a living animal. 

As for in small moderations using it, you can be right, you might never have a health issue and might never see any effects. The only thing i say is why even take the risk if you know you can avoid it. 

Also you can use lets say Turtle wax (*yes the kind you use on your car, and yes i used turtle wax because it had turtle in it) and buff you tortoise up, in small amounts i doubt it will effect your tortoise with small amounts or little use. You can use it, but you might think there is a bigger risk in using it, therefor avoid using it, you can almost apply that same concept to vitashell just the vitashell might not have as big as a risk.

On the other hand, i know people that use it, and never had a problem. I'm kind of just on the point of, you choose to use it of not, everyone knows the facts, knows the problems that can be created (or problems not to be created) people are going to use it and people are not going to use it. 

Last thing, reminds me i really do need turtle wax, my car is getting faded paint, need to buff it this weekend.


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## nrfitchett4 (Feb 6, 2009)

Millerlite said:


> some people use vitashell some people dont, we are a forum that gives out help, we cant force everyone to take the advice and listen. ITs like UVB or any other debate.. people believe what they believe and do what they want to do, cant control everyone.



which is why this is in the "debatable topics" section.
what's your point?



tortelini said:


> I am always up for a good debate....(IF it was me, I would take emysemy's advise without question) As for my opinion, I think that sometimes we buy products that say they are supposed to do us good and trust that these "experts or companies" have our well being in mind when in fact it's just to make money. When it comes to products used on humans, there are much stricter rules as to what can and can't be used...however, pet products do not have these rules. I don't trust pet products. C'mon they sell cedar chips at the pet store and they are toxic to most animals!!!
> 
> Here are the ingredients in VitaShell:
> 
> ...



one question for you. Do you drink diet drinks or eat anything with asparatame in it?
Just curious since your so worried about what is in your tort's lotion and what they do to lab rats at high doses.


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## Millerlite (Feb 6, 2009)

my point is this debate is pointless. I'm sure there are more important things.


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## galvinkaos (Feb 6, 2009)

Millerlite said:


> Last thing, reminds me i really do need turtle wax, my car is getting faded paint, need to buff it this weekend.



Aren't you in So. Cal? I hope you are planning on doing it in the garage or under an umbrella.  I am looking at a wet weekend forecast and day.

Dawna
(in So Cal)


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## nrfitchett4 (Feb 6, 2009)

Millerlite said:


> my point is this debate is pointless. I'm sure there are more important things.



I'm sure there are more important things to do than raise torts, but we still do it. We could be debating the bailout or the world economy, but I don't come here to worry about those things. 
This is for all things tort, I'm pretty sure vitashell counts.


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## Millerlite (Feb 6, 2009)

People use vitashell and people dont, people that have used it never had problems, so i say use it, if your against it dont use it, thats all i'm saying, seems like people are saying it will kill your tortoise if you use it, but i dont think a tortoise ever has died or even showed illness from little use of it.


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## nrfitchett4 (Feb 6, 2009)

Millerlite said:


> People use vitashell and people dont, people that have used it never had problems, so i say use it, if your against it dont use it, thats all i'm saying, seems like people are saying it will kill your tortoise if you use it, but i dont think a tortoise ever has died or even showed illness from little use of it.



cool site by the way.


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## dmmj (Feb 6, 2009)

LOL painted tortoise nails, that I would like to see haha, is vitashell a liquid? If so could you not put in the torts basking water? Just a thought since I dont use it I can say one way or the other to it effects.


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## tortoisenerd (Feb 6, 2009)

It is a cream I believe; sold in a small plastic jar.


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## loogielv (Feb 6, 2009)

Millerlite said:


> my point is this debate is pointless. I'm sure there are more important things.



way to contribute. in the debate forum no less. thumbs up


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## Millerlite (Feb 6, 2009)

YEAH!


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## galvinkaos (Feb 6, 2009)

isn't the point of a debate to have people give their/opposing side back and forth and other people decide which side they agree with or disagree with?

I like people who debate with themselves. Don't have to wait for the monday morning quarterbacks that way.

Dawna


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## Meg90 (Feb 6, 2009)

loogielv said:


> Millerlite said:
> 
> 
> > my point is this debate is pointless. I'm sure there are more important things.
> ...



What is with all the new members here attacking the longstanding (and more knowledgeable) members?

Yes, this is the debate forums. But if someone wants to remove themselves FROM the debate, it is their right.

You are new here, Loogielv. You asked for advice, and chose to go against what several others are saying, and use the product anyways. That is your prerogative. You, on the other hand, have no reason to instigate an argument. _I_ took your last comment as offensive, and firestarting, and I am not even its target.

I think as a new member, you need to take a step back. I am getting irritated of all the newbies coming in, determined to harsh the mellow of the nice community that myself, and others here had pre-formed.

Please take all the negativity somewhere else.


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## loogielv (Feb 7, 2009)

dmmj said:


> LOL painted tortoise nails, that I would like to see haha, is vitashell a liquid? If so could you not put in the torts basking water? Just a thought since I dont use it I can say one way or the other to it effects.





tortoisenerd said:


> It is a cream I believe; sold in a small plastic jar.




right. it's a cream. I wouldn't even consider putting anything in the water of an animal though. too many things to worry about. drinking and such.




Meg90 said:


> What is with all the new members here attacking the longstanding (and more knowledgeable) members?
> 
> Yes, this is the debate forums. But if someone wants to remove themselves FROM the debate, it is their right.
> 
> ...


I didn't mean to disrespect MillerLite, a "longstanding member" of 4 months with a whopping 100 posts. who came into the "debate" forum and into my thread which was setup as a debate, and expressed how he is...how did you put it? "more knowledgeable" by throwing a hissy fit and saying there are more important things. If you feel that way, congrats, dont worry about this thread and move along. I in no way offended anyone, attacked anyone, nor claimed my side of the argument as the 100% right side. I honestly, with all of my heart, set this topic up as a debate, and if there are valid points, then I will listen and flop. 

If you got nothing, then dammit you got nothing. It's not my fault. If you hate this thread, why the h*** post in it? I wasn't calling anyone out or doing anything other than setting up a debate so i could see valid, proof positive points.

so far i've gotten "some people use it. some dont" and "there are more important things. this debate is pointless" and then i'm the jerk? whatever.


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## Maggie Cummings (Feb 7, 2009)

Hey settle down and watch the language! That's seriously bad...


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## Meg90 (Feb 7, 2009)

loogielv said:


> I didn't mean to disrespect MillerLite, a "longstanding member" of 4 months with a whopping 100 posts. who came into the "debate" forum and into my thread which was setup as a debate, and expressed how he is...how did you put it? "more knowledgeable" by throwing a hissy fit and saying there are more important things. If you feel that way, congrats, dont worry about this thread and move along. I in no way offended anyone, attacked anyone, nor claimed my side of the argument as the 100% right side. I honestly, with all of my heart, set this topic up as a debate, and if there are valid points, then I will listen and flop.
> 
> If you got nothing, then dammit you got nothing. It's not my fault. If you hate this thread, why the h*** post in it? I wasn't calling anyone out or doing anything other than setting up a debate so i could see valid, proof positive points.
> 
> so far i've gotten "some people use it. some dont" and "there are more important things. this debate is pointless" and then i'm the jerk? whatever.



I'll repeat it, please take the negativity SOMEWHERE ELSE.

You are disruptive, and aggressive. Why take the time to look up another members stats and then humiliate them with them? 

Not to drop right down to your level, but you only have 10 posts to your name and have been a member for a WEEK. 

So once again, step back. Yes, this is your thread. To a point. You cannot bash other members, and attack those defending them. Want to look at my posting record? I see you didn't bother, because it says I am a senior member.

The maturity level needs to go up ASAP. What you are doing is hurtful, disruptive, and aggravating. And it should not be tolerated.


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## Yvonne G (Feb 7, 2009)

When you post in "debatable topics" you are supposed to promote your side of the debate. Please DO NOT denigrate the folks who have an opposing view. It doesn't say so in my profile, but I AM a moderator, and I'm telling ALL OF YOU, that is enough. If you have something to say pro or con about Vita Shell, then let's hear it, but keep personal thoughts or accusations out of the debate. 

Yvonne


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## Millerlite (Feb 7, 2009)

I'm pretty new to this forum, but i been on other forums before i even found this one, TT i been on for ever, i knew a lot of the people on this site before i even came on this site. There are a lot of people saying one person is wrong over another, i say just say your side of what you think is right, and not say anyone is wrong for using this product. Only reason i said this debate is pointless is because the guy above me said whats my point and i just replied that, didnt even mean anything by it really. People are keep saying the person is bad for using it blah blah, when really like i said before people are using it without long term effect, yes people list what effects are possible, but if someone is not using that much and use it every now and then is it %100 wrong, i dont think it is. Oh i use to read this forum a lot, and never did register, i always read, and talked to people on TT, then finally registered here. 

PS: i'm not mad at anyone, i dont really get mad, and really dont judge anyone from one post to the next, we all give valuable information and thats whats nice about fourms.


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## tortelini (Feb 7, 2009)

nrfichett4-I never drink diet but I can't say that I don't use products that are unhealthy or have that potential, but I try keep it to the minimum. For my children and pets I try even harder as they don't have a lot of choice what they put in or on their bodies. 

This is a debate....obviously! I have my side (not to use it), my opinions needed to be backed up(i.e. the info on the ingredients) To be honest, I don't care what you feed your tort, yourself or your family. I choose to give my family and my pets the healthiest of lives...this is my choice and my opinion. If the debate was about using Botox to make one look younger, my point would still be valid. Sure you might look better, chances are you won't die, but it isn't healthy for you so why do it??And more importantly, would you use it on someone who has no choice in the matter??? I like a good debate, I like to see things from other people's sides. Sometimes, I change my views and sometimes I don't ....I won't and didn't say it will kill your tort if you use it! I gave my debate and my reasons. I gave evidence that it probably isn't the healthiest thing to use on your tort. If the other side of the debate had proof that it is such a great product, then I would look at it with an open mind and make a decision based upon that. That's the fun of a debate....making a point, having someone else put down evidence that refutes it and so on. So far the potential bad outweighs the potential good....Does that mean I am winning 

Oh wait, my husband says no one wins in a debate...


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## loogielv (Feb 7, 2009)

Meg90 said:


> loogielv said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't mean to disrespect MillerLite, a "longstanding member" of 4 months with a whopping 100 posts. who came into the "debate" forum and into my thread which was setup as a debate, and expressed how he is...how did you put it? "more knowledgeable" by throwing a hissy fit and saying there are more important things. If you feel that way, congrats, dont worry about this thread and move along. I in no way offended anyone, attacked anyone, nor claimed my side of the argument as the 100% right side. I honestly, with all of my heart, set this topic up as a debate, and if there are valid points, then I will listen and flop.
> ...


"looking up" your stats is as simple as looking to the right of your name. you have 200 more posts then the other "longstanding" member. anyway, since you're bring nothing to the table, i'll just assume you have nothing to offer in this thead. moving on.



emysemys said:


> When you post in "debatable topics" you are supposed to promote your side of the debate. Please DO NOT denigrate the folks who have an opposing view. It doesn't say so in my profile, but I AM a moderator, and I'm telling ALL OF YOU, that is enough. If you have something to say pro or con about Vita Shell, then let's hear it, but keep personal thoughts or accusations out of the debate.
> 
> Yvonne



thank you emy. I appreciate you keeping this on track. it was my only goal: debating vitashell. 

thank you again!



tortelini said:


> nrfichett4-I never drink diet but I can't say that I don't use products that are unhealthy or have that potential, but I try keep it to the minimum. For my children and pets I try even harder as they don't have a lot of choice what they put in or on their bodies.
> 
> This is a debate....obviously! I have my side (not to use it), my opinions needed to be backed up(i.e. the info on the ingredients) To be honest, I don't care what you feed your tort, yourself or your family. I choose to give my family and my pets the healthiest of lives...this is my choice and my opinion. If the debate was about using Botox to make one look younger, my point would still be valid. Sure you might look better, chances are you won't die, but it isn't healthy for you so why do it??And more importantly, would you use it on someone who has no choice in the matter??? I like a good debate, I like to see things from other people's sides. Sometimes, I change my views and sometimes I don't ....I won't and didn't say it will kill your tort if you use it! I gave my debate and my reasons. I gave evidence that it probably isn't the healthiest thing to use on your tort. If the other side of the debate had proof that it is such a great product, then I would look at it with an open mind and make a decision based upon that. That's the fun of a debate....making a point, having someone else put down evidence that refutes it and so on. So far the potential bad outweighs the potential good....Does that mean I am winning
> 
> Oh wait, my husband says no one wins in a debate...



your husband is very smart...and from the sounds of it, lucky too! thank you for understanding that I have no intention other than a good debate. I appreciate it


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## Meg90 (Feb 7, 2009)

I've decided that after such rude prodding, I will share my opinion and say that I would NOT use vita-shell. 

I had considered it when I first got my greek. He has a bit of old damage on the top coastal scutes on one side, and I thought that slathering on some "conditioner" would help him heal. I did my reasearch first however, and asked around on this site, and another before I even purchased it. I was advised not to use it, and as a newbie to tortoises, I did as I was advised.

Now, here are my reasons for CONTINUING not to use it:

1. Its unnatural. In the wild, when Tortoises get shell damage or dry skin, they do not go to petsmart and buy a jar of vita-shell. They heal on their own.

2. A sign of a healthy tortoise, is a smooth dry, scentless shell. Why put a completely man made product on them, and introduce chemicals?

3. Also, the shell is covered in nerve endings. Anyone who has ever silently brushed their fingers over their sleeping tortoise will know this. Nigel wakes up quickly when i do this, and otherwise always knows when his shell is being touched. Why layer cream over the nerve endings? It would be like always wearing a glove on your hand, and never really FEELING anything.

4. Another reason I will never use it, is because I have seen its effects. I rescued a hingeback tortoise from a petshop that must have been applying it daily to her, and her shell was slick and oily to the touch. The product was so think in some points, it looked like rot. It could be scraped away with a fingernail. This "treatment" of her dry shell stunted her growth, and subsequently deformed her. She will now never reach adult size.

The petshop didn't know they were doing anything wrong. They thought they were helping her, because the vita-shell was MADE for tortoises.

In my opinion, its just a load of junk in a jar. Its another gimmick to sell money, because tortoises don't need many products that petshops sell. I personally would expect it to be peddled along with glass aquariums and wood-chip bedding to the new tortoise owner.

That is why I do not use it.


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## Madkins007 (Feb 8, 2009)

My 'take' on this is that a lot of commercial products, even tortoise stuff, is a waste of money. What is the real benefit of VitaShell, and is it anything that cannot be done in another way?

This is basically a hand lotion. The ingredients are consistent with many lotions and home-made recipes. So, what does hand lotion do? It moisturizes the top layer or two of dead skin and makes a seal against water getting out, or some germs, etc. getting in. All of the benefits are on the top layers. It cannot 'feed' the dead tissue- adding vitamin E or other vitamins in lotion is a waste of money.

They say it "helps revitalize dry, brittle shells and skin" (from ad copy)- doesn't this mean that the tortoise is dehydrated or in too low humidity? "Revitalize" is not the same as 'cure' or even 'treat'. Basically, it pastes flaky skin together and 'plumps up' dry tissue- temporarily.

I don't see anything here that I cannot do with a dab of baby lotion, or even baby oil applied very sparingly (a drop will go a long way). 

My verdict is that it is probably not harmful, but basically worthless.


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## nrfitchett4 (Feb 9, 2009)

Meg90 said:


> loogielv said:
> 
> 
> > Millerlite said:
> ...






Meg90 said:


> loogielv said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't mean to disrespect MillerLite, a "longstanding member" of 4 months with a whopping 100 posts. who came into the "debate" forum and into my thread which was setup as a debate, and expressed how he is...how did you put it? "more knowledgeable" by throwing a hissy fit and saying there are more important things. If you feel that way, congrats, dont worry about this thread and move along. I in no way offended anyone, attacked anyone, nor claimed my side of the argument as the 100% right side. I honestly, with all of my heart, set this topic up as a debate, and if there are valid points, then I will listen and flop.
> ...







tortelini said:


> nrfichett4-I never drink diet but I can't say that I don't use products that are unhealthy or have that potential, but I try keep it to the minimum. For my children and pets I try even harder as they don't have a lot of choice what they put in or on their bodies.
> 
> This is a debate....obviously! I have my side (not to use it), my opinions needed to be backed up(i.e. the info on the ingredients) To be honest, I don't care what you feed your tort, yourself or your family. I choose to give my family and my pets the healthiest of lives...this is my choice and my opinion. If the debate was about using Botox to make one look younger, my point would still be valid. Sure you might look better, chances are you won't die, but it isn't healthy for you so why do it??And more importantly, would you use it on someone who has no choice in the matter??? I like a good debate, I like to see things from other people's sides. Sometimes, I change my views and sometimes I don't ....I won't and didn't say it will kill your tort if you use it! I gave my debate and my reasons. I gave evidence that it probably isn't the healthiest thing to use on your tort. If the other side of the debate had proof that it is such a great product, then I would look at it with an open mind and make a decision based upon that. That's the fun of a debate....making a point, having someone else put down evidence that refutes it and so on. So far the potential bad outweighs the potential good....Does that mean I am winning
> 
> Oh wait, my husband says no one wins in a debate...



I would never use it personally, so you win!!!


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## loogielv (Feb 9, 2009)

Meg90 said:


> I've decided that after such rude prodding, I will share my opinion and say that I would NOT use vita-shell.
> 
> I had considered it when I first got my greek. He has a bit of old damage on the top coastal scutes on one side, and I thought that slathering on some "conditioner" would help him heal. I did my reasearch first however, and asked around on this site, and another before I even purchased it. I was advised not to use it, and as a newbie to tortoises, I did as I was advised.
> 
> ...



there is alot of posts after this one that i want to reply to, but i wanted to reply to this one specifically. I think this post is brilliant. your arguments are completely sound and worded in a way that I truly respect. I am really pleased that you did decide to chime in, because it is one of the most intelligent responses I've had the pleasure of coming up against. I truly mean it.

Having said that, I ask you to follow up on the petshop issue of the tort with the layers of slime. Do you feel that the petshop was just layering it on and just leaving it and never washing it? I can't fathom any reason why it would layer on and cake up like that, unless the people were just leaving it on, after slathering it up. Do you think that's what happened?

Of course with all due respect, I would still argue back that I overcame your objections in my original post, but honestly, I'd feel guilty. Your points were just so eloquent and precise that my bluntness and crowbar type of debating would not do them justice. I am truly humbled by your replies.


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## Crazy1 (Feb 11, 2009)

At this time I am locking this thread until the sarcasm and down right nastyness stops. It is reviewed my other Mods and then at that time it may be reopened.


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