# Is This Stealing?....your opinion



## N2TORTS (Dec 4, 2011)

Here is what just happened to me . I have seen this person using this forum . Nonetheless... I needed some *** , so I went online and googled it. Just moving to a new area and dont know any suppliers ,I saw this persons ad and clicked on "the" webpage. To my total shock at the top of the Website the pictures used are *My* tortoises and Pictures* in the gosh darn heading of the ad. I scroll down and wham ... more pics of my torts?..... The person ripped off my pics from this forum and is using them on the web page ...WTF?
They didnt even ask me , I know I didnt copy-write them ..... but I still think it's chickenSH** . I'm pretty cool about sharing my pics and hope you folks enjoy them too.... but I wish "persons" would have asked me first , So I wrote them 5 days ago ...to see if I could order some *** ..and then made a funny comment - Ps.. ... nice pics!
Sure they wanted to fill my order but ignored the picture comment. 
Whats your thought on this? 

JD~


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## CtTortoiseMom (Dec 4, 2011)

Whoa, that is crazy!! Yes it is stealing!! Unbelievable!!


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## Lulu (Dec 4, 2011)

You don't have to register a copyright. You automatically hold the copyright on your creative works from the moment of creation. Registration merely confers additional rights when you litigate. Yes, using your pictures without permission is stealing. This really is not something subject to debate.

And, no, you do not lose your copyright because you post your pictures on the internet. It just makes the damages issue a little muddier. And, no, it is not fair use. That is a very limited exception that does not protect using someone else's pictures on your commercial website.

If you care, you can ask them to take them down, or you can ask for compensation for your award of a license to use your photographs (as they are gaining some financial benefit from using your photographs to sell their product). In any case, I would send correspondence very clearly explaining that you hold the copyright to the photographs and that they were used without your permission, lest you waive some rights where it does count (i.e., someone actually makes some real money from the images).


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## dmarcus (Dec 4, 2011)

I say it's stealing if they did not ask your permission to use your photos...


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## Wicked Demon (Dec 4, 2011)

Definately very un-ethical for sure.


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## ascott (Dec 4, 2011)

If they are not claiming that those are their tortoise, nor using a picture with a label saying those are their breeding stock ....well, they are not stealing. 

Many sites use a variety of pictures representing a photograph for reference sake, you know? 

Now, with that being said---I think that if I were you, I would absolutely and clearly, in writing, notify that party that you are requesting them to not use your property in their heading for their website. If they do not cease to use them then at that point you can then send them another notice, in writing, that you will post EVERYWHERE that you can possibly think of that the photos they are using are pics of your stock ---that you will be setting up a website TOTALLY DEDICATED to sharing with the tortoise world that they use stock photos of tortoise that they do not produce....also that you will go onto this forum specifically and spill the beans.....IMHO that is....

and my personal opinion---yes, chickens**ts


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## DixieParadise (Dec 4, 2011)

I agree with Ascott on this one. Just let them know that these are your pictures and that you are requesting them to take them down and not use them. They should do this in a reasonable of time with no hassle. I am sure they meant no harm and didn't think of it as stealing. However, if it is helping them sell their product and you like their product, you might be able to gain some compensation that way.


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## Lulu (Dec 4, 2011)

It's stealing. The right to use those photographs belongs to the taker. They are using them. Therefore they are doing something that only the taker can do. JD owns the photographs and the right to use them. It doesn't matter how the photograph is labeled.

They are not "stock photos." Stock photos are photos that have a license for use. Either there is no copyright holder or the site owner has paid a fee to use the photos.

The stealing is in the taking of the property right, which is the ability to use, which only JD possesses. That's the nature of copyright. It's law, not a matter of debate (I'm a lawyer).

I agree that you might ask for compensation. Start off friendly and say that, since they obviously like your photographs, you're willing to award a license to them for limited use for a certain amount of compensation. Be sure to be clear on the limits, i.e., only on the website, for whatever advertising, for how long, etc.


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## lynnedit (Dec 4, 2011)

Lulu said:


> It's stealing. The right to use those photographs belongs to the taker. They are using them. Therefore they are doing something that only the taker can do. JD owns the photographs and the right to use them. It doesn't matter how the photograph is labeled.
> 
> They are not "stock photos." Stock photos are photos that have a license for use. Either there is no copyright holder or the site owner has paid a fee to use the photos.
> 
> ...





That sounds right to me, being a non lawyer. It would really bother me, and I would agree that you should contact them in no uncertain terms.
Also, it is just wrong, and bizarre.


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## ascott (Dec 4, 2011)

Lulu....regardless of whether you are a lawyer or not...you read my use of the word "stock" incorrectly. I referred to stock as his "breeding stock"...nowhere did I say "stock photos"...funny how the written word can take on a life of its own in the eye of the viewer. One other thing, every thread shared here is indeed subject to debate....this is a forum


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## hannahlouise12 (Dec 4, 2011)

Yes that is definitely stealing! I would not be happy if this happened to me.


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## ascott (Dec 4, 2011)

Lynne, what a beautiful village....when I was a kid and would see the miniature villages and towns I always wished I could shrink down to fit in the little buildings....very cool


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## Lulu (Dec 4, 2011)

Angela, I'm sorry I misunderstood, but you did say "stock photos." Second to last line in your third paragraph.

I think there are times when it could be up for debate, as if they continued to use his photos and JD said nothing, and then a year down the line they escalated things and used them in merchandise. I think then JD might have a hard time calling this stealing, as he knew of the use and allowed it to occur, which might imply his permission. Here, where the photos were used without his knowledge or permission, and he has just discovered it, it is pretty clear cut.

That being said, there's no reason to go in there swinging, especially if the photos weren't marked. As I said, a nice note offering to work with them in exchange for compensation would be appropriate, with a request to have the images removed if a deal can't be arranged. As you apparently take desireable photos, JD, you should start marking them as copyrighted (symbol name and year), and perhaps even think about watermarking them. The mark would at least provide warning to other parties that you intend to enforce copyright.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Dec 4, 2011)

This has happened to us also, however the way I feel about it now is what ever I post or send thru e-mails is free to the world. I will add that many of our pictures are never posted because of this and we have a higher purpose intended for them!


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## Lulu (Dec 4, 2011)

Unfortunately, that's usually the effect, as damages aren't usually worth the litigation it takes to enforce copyright.  Still, you never know when someone may actually make real money with your photos in the future, so it's important to at least attempt to enforce your rights when an infringement occurs to avoid waiving them. The alternative is to keep them off the internet.


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## jackrat (Dec 4, 2011)

I'm not sure if it is stealing,in a legal sense. But it is definatly a breach of etiquitte and ethics. Not an act to inspire trust in the person.


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## ascott (Dec 4, 2011)

Renee, no sorry necessary. We are good  You are ABSOLUTELY correct that the phrase stock photo was used---as a continuation of my original thought however. I failed to use the word breeding again in front of "stock photo" in the body of my statement as you referenced...you are absolutely correct 

_*As you apparently take desireable photos, JD, you should start marking them as copyrighted (symbol name and year), and perhaps even think about watermarking them. The mark would at least provide warning to other parties that you intend to enforce copyright.
*_

This is the best piece of advise and direction to take into account. It is a simply format to set up and apply to any photo/printed music and lyric etc...

JD I am sorry that you have to be frustrated by this situation.


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## Tom (Dec 4, 2011)

I do think you should have been asked first. Its just common courtesy. Since the pictures were posted publicly, I would not consider it "stealing", but I do consider it bad form. In my way of thinking right and wrong is often completely unrelated to legal and illegal. Most of our laws make no sense, but right and wrong is pretty obvious. I think it was wrong to use your photos on a for personal website for selling stuff without permission.

Now the case could be made that the user of your photos is a fraud, but that is a different issue...


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## ALDABRAMAN (Dec 4, 2011)

Tom said:


> I do think you should have been asked first. Its just common courtesy. Since the pictures were posted publicly, I would not consider it "stealing", but I do consider it bad form. In my way of thinking right and wrong is often completely unrelated to legal and illegal. Most of our laws make no sense, but right and wrong is pretty obvious. I think it was wrong to use your photos on a for personal website for selling stuff without permission.
> 
> Now the case could be made that the user of your photos is a fraud, but that is a different issue...



...


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## Baoh (Dec 4, 2011)

Seems more like piracy than stealing, since the original is still retained, but certainly unethical behavior.


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## bigred (Dec 4, 2011)

Dont know if its stealing but Its just not right


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## JamieLikesTrees (Dec 4, 2011)

I know this may seam a little over board but if you do not want your picture used on the web cite I would get a lawer to write them a letter basically stating that they did not purchase a copy of these picture and that they are to remove pictures from the web site with in x amount of days other wise they will have to pay you for invation of privacy ... What ever you can come up with. The reason I know this is I use to work at a company that will not be named and that company had some pictures on display in the store of a person who was paid by this company to have this picture taken of him just for this ad. Well this model's lawer sent the company a letter and said that this person no longer wanted this picture of him up in stores and that all stores are to take down that ad with in 1 day. The first thing the company did was take down this ad because they did not want a to get sued. 

My point is if you send them a notice that they do NOT have permission to use those photo chances are they will take them down asap because the last thing anyone web based business wants is to get sued.

You could even write them a letter yourself and say something like they have 1 week to remove photos otherwise the next time you will be talking to them with a copyright lawer. 

Anyhow that's what I would do, mostly because I'm in the art field and there is nothing that gets under my skin more then people who think they can pass something as thier own just because it's the; like the Internet is a free-for-all.

What ever you decide to do good luck


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## N2TORTS (Dec 5, 2011)

Lulu.... I admired your professional answer and everyone else who replied. ( And yes what I viewed was a business website / or makes it out to be ) I honestly was a bit flattered to see my torts/pics online. But after thinking about it , I wondered why this person didnâ€™t ask me to use them? Or at least give me some kind of credit/recognition of who they belonged to. At least even putting my website on his page might be professional business thing to do . In my real life I spend 1,000â€™s of $$$ on advertising and we as a company hold our work very proudly. I would hate to see my work used on someone elseâ€™s business card , let alone their company logo . I posted this thread just to see what you all thought about it . I can tell there are many class acts in here, and would have done things differently â€¦â€¦ why I hang out here. I wouldnâ€™t have mind so much , if at least I was asked â€¦.
Thanks for your time and replies.

Regards
JD~


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## StudentoftheReptile (Dec 5, 2011)

This topic has come up before on other forums (the issue is much more prevalent in the snake world, I dunno why?). Also, being a graphic designer, and occasionally displaying my own artwork online, I researched the matter more thoroughly for my own benefit.

It IS stealing. Just because it's on "the internet" does not automatically make an image free up for grabs for anyone to use for any purpose. If you did not take the photo, or create the image, and you are using that image, you are technically stealing. It doesn't matter if you are giving credit to the original creater/photographer. It doesn't matter if you're not making money from using that image. If you did not receive explicit permission from the owner of that image, you ARE using that image illegally, and the owner has every right to take legal action against you.

Now, as someone said, 99.99% of the time, no one is going to really take the time to sue someone over using a image. The only people who may are possibly professional photographers. However, most of the time, the "offenders" can usually be scared into not using the image.

And we're all guilty of this. We've all shared some funny picture or whatever, and some images on the web are so old Lord only knows who the creater was.

If you want to protect your own images, watermarking or just putting your name on them can deter all but the most determined "image thieves."


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## ripper7777777 (Dec 5, 2011)

Yea it's stealing by all definitions of it. Call the cops or sue kind of stealing no. Send them an email kind of stealing yes. As far as who's the owner, that can be a grey area, some forums claim ownership of all posted material, but that's not really the issue here, either way it's not public domain and was just wrong to do.

I hate that people that do this kind of stuff, because I hate watermarks and sigs on pics, I hate scripts designed to stop save as functions, just as I hate bars on a house window, but you do what you have to do I suppose. I do personally save a lot of pics for inspiration and ideas, not really tort related pics, but with my other hobbies, but I never use them on my site or in my shop.


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## Cherbear (Dec 5, 2011)

I would not order from this company knowing that they stole someone's photos without permission. If it was me I would be angry. I would definately at least let them know about it. It's just not right!!

Oh and I just re-read your post. They are a member on here and posted their website on the forum from which they stole?? Amazing!!


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## Kristina (Dec 5, 2011)

By the letter of the law, yes it is stealing. I have seen this time and time again on the BOI on Fauna, and the stealer never comes out ahead.


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## CLMoss (Dec 5, 2011)

I would just ask them to credit your name. People are free to download my paintings. I don't care. This is not that important to get all worked up about. If I remember correctly, you are not allowed to use a photo of a humans face without permission. That is why the blur faces on tv. 

~C


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## cemmons12 (Dec 5, 2011)

Wow! I would say they need to give u free goodies or find their own pics... free stuff is always good! Good luck!


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## Yvonne G (Dec 5, 2011)

At the very least they should have asked your permission.


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## Lulu (Dec 5, 2011)

JD, your emotions are completely understandable. If you are flattered but want credit, treat this like a business. Put copyright marks on your photos and put together some notice on how to contact you for a license for use. You should be flattered, and you should be compensated, in whatever form that takes for you. Maybe it's credit for the photo, or maybe it's financial or a trade. I might not start out accusatory (depending on the folks that run this business), because maybe this could work out to be a nice thing for you. If you order a lot of things from this business, maybe start out with a request for a trade.

(Perhaps you were not aware that the images you are using were taken by me and that I own the copyright. I appreciate that you enjoy my images and find them useful, therefore, I would be happy to work out an agreement that would give you a limited license to use the images on your website. I would ask the amount of $-- for an annual license which would include the use of the images on the website only/Please advise what you would be willing to offer for an annual license that would include the use of the images on the website only. I would also be happy to discuss additional licenses to use the images in other advertising. Please advise as to your thoughts. I believe that we can come to a mutually agreeable arrangement that would allow you to continue using my images.) If you are willing to accept a trade or maybe a discount (25% off all purchases for a year?), you can put that in there.

Just be sure to mark the photos they are using so that someone else doesn't take them from that website. If they tell you to pack sand, that's the time to be firm.

Also, the above does not constitute legal advice and does not create an attorney/client relationship between us. It merely represents my personal opinion on what I might do (make lemonade!).


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## zesty_17 (Dec 5, 2011)

N2TORTS said:


> Here is what just happened to me . I have seen this person using this forum . Nonetheless... I needed some *** , so I went online and googled it. Just moving to a new area and dont know any suppliers ,I saw this persons ad and clicked on "the" webpage. To my total shock at the top of the Website the pictures used are *My* tortoises and Pictures* in the gosh darn heading of the ad. I scroll down and wham ... more pics of my torts?..... The person ripped off my pics from this forum and is using them on the web page ...WTF?
> They didnt even ask me , I know I didnt copy-write them ..... but I still think it's chickenSH** . I'm pretty cool about sharing my pics and hope you folks enjoy them too.... but I wish "persons" would have asked me first , So I wrote them 5 days ago ...to see if I could order some *** ..and then made a funny comment - Ps.. ... nice pics!
> Sure they wanted to fill my order but ignored the picture comment.
> Whats your thought on this?
> ...



yes, this is stealing and there are laws that protect you should you decide to sue.


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## yagyujubei (Dec 6, 2011)

On a search engine, awhile ago, I searched "South African Leopard Tortoise", and was very surprised to see some pics of MY animals. I guess I never realized where those pictures came from. I don't think that there's any collectable damages here.I always thought that if they weren't copyrighted, that they are public domain. There's really little you can do anyway. How much are you willing to spend to pursue this? I'd forget about it and maybe be a little flattered that your pics were used.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Dec 6, 2011)

When it comes to the reptile market/community, there are two main factors that come into play with this issue of copyrighting photos: your own individual animals and your photography skills.

The first one can be a big deal if you are a breeder and another dealer/breeder/seller is using images of YOUR animals to sell theirs. Usually, those individuals like to "borrow" images of nicer-looking animals as a general photo for their site where they wholesale many different animals. They may even say something to effect of "The animal in the photo may not be the animal for sale." But bottom line: if they did not get permission from you beforehand, they are illegally using your property to make money. Not only is it thievery from you, but it sometimes can be fraudulent to their customers if they do not specify that the animal in the photo is not actually in their stock.

The second issue is a big deal if you consider yourself to be a photographer by hobby. Its kind of a grey area, but if you're just taking quick snapshots without any care to lighting, setting, etc, you're probably not a photography aficionado. If you have some fancy camera that cost you more than one paycheck, you take like 100+ pictures just to get a handful of good ones, and/or you have a light box, then chances are you're a photography geek. Likewise, you take pride in the photos you post of your animals, because you took time and care to get that perfect shot of your tortoise munching on a strawberry. Regardless of subject matter, it is just as illegal for someone to use your photos for, let's say, post cards, t-shirts, or even as the welcome photo on their own website. They are essentially marketing themselves using something that belongs to you.

It may not seem like a big deal to some, but it is indeed a very big deal to many. Just food for thought.


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## Neal (Dec 6, 2011)

Yeah, it's stealing...but whatrya gonna do? You could pursue some type of litigation if you really want to invest the time and money. I for one don't think it's worth it...but everyone is different.
I think when we post pictures on a site like this we would have to assume the pictures are going to be copied and used without our permission and often without us even knowing.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Dec 6, 2011)

90% of the time, it really isn't worth it, especially in a community like this. But I run my own freelance company as a graphic artist, and I am very careful what images I upload and where. If I create artwork, and have it on my online portfolio, I can and will take action against any fool who thinks he can swipe it and start making t-shirts off of something I made.


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## Talka (Dec 6, 2011)

Oh no, is this your tortoise? (LINK CONTAINS F-WORD) http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/...00/213/578/Ifuckinglovecocaine.PNG?1323207975

It's been turned into an internet joke!


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## jaizei (Dec 6, 2011)

Talka said:


> Oh no, is this your tortoise? (LINK CONTAINS F-WORD) http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/...00/213/578/Ifuckinglovecocaine.PNG?1323207975
> 
> It's been turned into an internet joke!



Oh no Nelson! Might explain why he doesn't have much of an appetite nowadays.


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## terryo (Dec 6, 2011)

yagyujubei said:


> On a search engine, awhile ago, I searched "South African Leopard Tortoise", and was very surprised to see some pics of MY animals. I guess I never realized where those pictures came from. I don't think that there's any collectable damages here.I always thought that if they weren't copyrighted, that they are public domain. There's really little you can do anyway. How much are you willing to spend to pursue this? I'd forget about it and maybe be a little flattered that your pics were used.



I also searched for box turtle outdoor enclosures, and outdoor tortoise gardens and lots of my pictures came up. In fact a friend of mine was looking to get some idea's for her boxie garden and saw some of my pictures and called me to tell me about it. Something like that doesn't bother me, but if you use pictures of my tortoises on your site and you are using my pictures to represent your information, then that is a different matter.


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## doctrin13th (Dec 7, 2011)

Nowadays, pictures and created images in the internet are prone to "stealing" especially shared photos in blogs or personal website, that "thieves" use in their own ads, avatars, websites etc.

Not to go off-topic here, but how can I copyright my own pictures if copyright is un-registered? How can it be copyrighted without registration? What proof have I, that they are my own pictures, produced by me? One could claim that they're his/hers.

Without official or legal claims, I think it is really hard to pursue the "thief" or even prevent the stealing, especially at the present days, where most people lack moral values and principles and just being opportunistic to make works easy.

But YES it is stealing! At least, to us rightful owners who know the truth. But we can't do anything about it (if there is no official and registered copyright).


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## jaizei (Dec 7, 2011)

doctrin13th said:


> Nowadays, pictures and created images in the internet are prone to "stealing" especially shared photos in blogs or personal website, that "thieves" use in their own ads, avatars, websites etc.
> 
> Not to go off-topic here, but how can I copyright my own pictures if copyright is un-registered? How can it be copyrighted without registration? What proof have I, that they are my own pictures, produced by me? One could claim that they're his/hers.
> 
> ...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exchangeable_image_file_format

http://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2009/03/26/adding-copyright-to-exif-automatically/

While not perfect, exif data created when the picture is taken can help some.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Dec 7, 2011)

99.99% of the time, any photos I take are high-res, and I usually crop them and reduce them in size before they are "internet post ready." Therefore, I can easily provide the originals if need be.


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## jaizei (Dec 7, 2011)

http://www.tineye.com/

This is also useful in determining how prevalent an image is on the Internet. It can let you know if the pictures someone has posted on their site are just ripped from somewhere else.


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## philthyturtle (Dec 7, 2011)

i would consider it stealing. it is your work your turtles. people react the same way when they are show in pictures without permission so why not with your turtles


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## Angi (Dec 8, 2011)

I think you should have been asked AND they should be labled as your torts.

@ Angela~You always have the most reasonable replies. You are a smart lady


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## evlinLoutries (Dec 9, 2011)

Sound stealing for me..

Anyway, just a short question, when someone replying my post (madskin if I'm not wrong), he use a word, "ball park", what does it mean?

Sorry, cause I never heard it before..


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## N2TORTS (Dec 9, 2011)

evlinLoutries said:


> Sound stealing for me..
> 
> Anyway, just a short question, when someone replying my post (madskin if I'm not wrong), he use a word, "ball park", what does it mean?
> 
> Sorry, cause I never heard it before..



that's an American slang for " within a range" ...or " typical" ... 
" close to" ect......


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## evlinLoutries (Dec 9, 2011)

N2TORTS said:


> evlinLoutries said:
> 
> 
> > Sound stealing for me..
> ...



"you seem to be in the ballpark"

what does it means? cause I still don't get it..


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## lynnedit (Dec 9, 2011)

It really doesn't make any sense, that's true! It certainly can't be directly translated.
It means your enclosure or set up is " close to where it needs to be" or "that is in the range of where it should be"
It's a good thing!


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## evlinLoutries (Dec 9, 2011)

lynnedit said:


> It really doesn't make any sense, that's true! It certainly can't be directly translated.
> It means your enclosure or set up is " close to where it needs to be" or "that is in the range of where it should be"
> It's a good thing!



yeah, just want to learn it..

cause I got a new word from watching serial movies..

thanks anyway..


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## Angi (Dec 9, 2011)

Maybe we should start a thread on American slang phrases and what they mean and where they come from.
Ya it would be a bit O/T EnLin why don't you start it with the phrases that confuse you?


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## evlinLoutries (Dec 10, 2011)

Angi said:


> Maybe we should start a thread on American slang phrases and what they mean and where they come from.
> Ya it would be a bit O/T EnLin why don't you start it with the phrases that confuse you?



I just did, about the ball park..


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## laramie (Dec 10, 2011)

I agree with you. They should have asked your permission first. I think it is stealing. They are using your torts to advertise and that is so NOT COOL!


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## betty123 (Dec 11, 2011)

jeff im sure this will get deleated but the last page in your tortoisecove.com is ALL from my back yard..the glass door incloser, pond, plumeras MY YARD . I have asked you to remove them ,you havnt so i say KARMA...


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## porter (Dec 11, 2011)

It's plagiarism, if they have made a reference to the pictures and dated when the accessed them its usually ok,


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## betty123 (Dec 12, 2011)

I would say they can use your pictures unless you stated other wise ..you have pictures of my back yard on tortoisecove.com that i have asked you to removed ..yet there still there..KARMA


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## cdmay (Dec 14, 2011)

This morning (12/14) is the first time I have viewed this thread. 
All I can say JD is this...welcome to my world. I have found photos of mine all over the internet (especially Japanese turtle sites) and even more incredibly, in books and magazines. All without my permission or approval. 
In the case of the books I contacted the author and he claimed that it was an honest mistake. I had sent him numerous slides over the years and evidently he forgot where they came from (even though my name was on them) and they were submitted to the publishers in good faith. As he has asked for, and received my permission to publish photos of mine before, I am OK with the over site.
But the websites that use photos of mine without my permission are in violation of US copyright laws. Good luck doing anything about it though.
So who is the person using your photos??? Come on man, we want to know!


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## Neddy (Dec 21, 2011)

I would simply be proud that they thought my pictures and tortoises were that great, they wanted them up for the world to see. 

I don't think it's stealing, I am sure they meant no malice or to cause you any concern or frustration. 

If your that bothered just send them an email saying you would prefer if they don't use them.


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