# Nigel has lost his appetite



## Meg90 (Aug 15, 2009)

Posted some of this in Kate's thread. Thought I would stop changing the topic, and start my own thread.

SO anyways. Nigel is being weird.

Anouk is up and next to her plate BY 9:30. 

Nigel, stays buried, shows no interest in food, kicks it all around his enclosure so that in the afternoon (around 4 or so) I just pick everything up, and give him a fresh pile. And even then, I have to put his butt in front of the pile to get him to eat it. 

I've even tried Romaine lettuce, red pepper, yellow squash, butternut squash, mazuri...I've even offered fruit. He won't eat all of that either. He's not super excited about any thing anymore....won't even polish off a whole piece of pepper. And he used to LOVE his pepper.

He's not lethargic though...He does laps and climbs and pushes things, just no appetite. I don't know if its the month, or what.

He was always an excellent eater...only going off his feed ONCE after that avocado incident. He always went nuts for romaine, since I only feed it straight (no spring mix) like once a month to help with hydration.

I don't think its parasites. I fed butternut squash (lightly boiled) w/ his springmix everyday for a week to help "worm" him.....

He is also active much later in the day than usual. Some times even being up and about just before his timer shuts the lights off (I have him on a 13 hour schedule) His lights go on at 7 am and go off at 8 pm......


So what is wrong with him? I don't think he's lost any weight. I will weigh him in the morning (hes asleep now since its 1:12 AM).....but he's definitely not gaining.


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## tortoisenerd (Aug 16, 2009)

Does he need to still be gaining or is he fully grown? The only idea I got is to never say that you don't think he has parasites unless he's been tested. Mine had a negative test, and I've been feeding butternut and pumpkin, but still had them! If you have an established vet, the $20 or whatever is some peace of mind. Other than that, no idea. I think something is going around on this forum...the summer funks. hehe


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## Maggie Cummings (Aug 16, 2009)

I have always recommended butternut squash as a way to keep parasites at bay but alas! I had to take a small tort in to the Vet for an URTI and soft plastron and guess what? He was loaded with pin worms, so much for the squash. So possibly you need to take in a stool sample. Could he just be full? I am sure your husbandry is correct so I'd take in a stool sample and start feeding every other day, offer him something different that he's never had before...


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## bettinge (Aug 16, 2009)

I was reading on TortoiseTrust a while back that sometimes a tort will dig in for up to several days. Then, for no apparent reason they come to life and resume a more normal routine.

So now if a tort digs in, I pretty much ignore him (although its hard) for several days, though its ususlly much less time. Their activitity and appitite are definetly linked to temperature, mine are thriving in (finally summer in NY) these hot days. They are active in the cooler times of the day and gaining about 6% in body weight a week. During the cooler weeks, they would only gain 0-2%.

I think its in a torts nature to have "down time". It seems like a natural way to slow their growth.


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## Meg90 (Aug 16, 2009)

Nigel is around 10 years old. He's done growing. But he is under weight. He has been underweight since I got him in November.

I used to feed him twice a day. And he would eat both piles. Now, I am lucky if I can get him to eat once. 

I just might take him in. After all the stuff I've heard about vets though, I am hesitant to trust one. Even though this vet specializes in reptiles....


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Aug 16, 2009)

Had almost the same problem... the vet's treatments were the only cure... Hope you have some $$$ (or have pet insurance) because it put me back $200 or so...  Best of luck!


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## Meg90 (Aug 16, 2009)

No pet insurance. Why was it so expensive to just worm your tort???

Nigel is worth more to us than I can put a value on. 

On another note, i put two leaves of radicchio in, he's already kicked around most of a helping of spring mix, but he ate the two leaves.

I don't know what it is. I haven't changed brands of spring mix or anything like that, so I can't imagine its taste that's bothering him. I checked his temps today, and everything seems good.....

Tortoises are so hard. Everything is such a mystery with them!


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## stells (Aug 16, 2009)

I wouldn't rely on Squash or pumpkin as a reliable wormer... they would have to be fed on quite a number of days in a row to be effective... with the most effective part being the part that isn't fed... the seeds... 

I would get a fecal done... just to make sure... and test for both worms and protozoa...


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## tortoisenerd (Aug 16, 2009)

Just a note on fecal tests. Positive or negative is not the only answer you need. The actual parasite load and the type of parasite is also important. A low parasite load with little or no symptoms may be ok without treatment, but not a higher one. Medications can be tough on a tortoise. If you have an established vet, they typically just charge for the test if you drop off a sample (about $20). If Nigel has never been in since you've had him, I highly recommend it. Just try to get in contact with someone on one of these forums to find a good vet. You can always go home and think over and treatment before going forward with it.

Hope Nigel picks up soon! Yes, tortoises sure are tough.


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## Maggie Cummings (Aug 16, 2009)

There seems to be so many Hermanni type tortoises that have 'gone off their feed' that I am wondering if this is the time in the wild that they would stop eating getting ready for hibernation...Mind you I personally have never hibernated a tortoise, but I do know that their gut needs to be empty so it doesn't ferment while they are hibernating. And there are so many not eating now that it just is making me wonder...I would imagine that it takes time to clear out all the food in their systems and that maybe what is happening...just a thought. My experience is mainly with desert types so I am just guessing here...maybe y'all need to think about that...


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## stells (Aug 16, 2009)

I have overwintered med species and always managed to keep them eating... if conditions are right they will do so... as it is August i would have thought its a tad bit early for that yet as temps and light levels are still up there...


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## Crazy1 (Aug 16, 2009)

Meg, sorry to hear Nigel is off his feed. How long has Nigel been feeling weird? 
If you decide to take a stool sample in, I agree with Stells get a parasite and protozoa test done. 

If you ever get a diagnosis of RI or another bacterial infection, my suggestion is (especially until you really know and trust your vet) get a culture done before treatment. I didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t and was given the wrong meds then I took mine to a different vet and requested a culture (aerobic) done and they were found with moderate growth of Chryseobacterium Spp., Coagulase Negative Staph, and a light growth of Enterococcus Species. It may cost a bit more (mine was $64.00) but worth every penny. In fact had I known and done it first I would have saved myself about $300.00. Just my two cents worth. Good luck I hope he feel himself soon. Please keep us updated.


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## Isa (Aug 16, 2009)

Meg, I am sorry to hear that Nigel does not eat much. 
Keep us updated please


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Aug 17, 2009)

Well the most costly thing was the initial exam, and then the fecal, and then she required three in-house treatments for the specific one she had.. but now she is wonderfgu


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## tortoisenerd (Aug 18, 2009)

Meg-Any update?

My vet charges about $60 for a visit, $20 for a fecal, and the antibiotics were under $30 I think. Hope Nigel doesn't need anything but a checkup and fecal though!

Torts can go quite a while without eating. If he's still eating a bit, and pooping, my philosophy is not to worry until there is a reason to worry.

Robyn-Thanks for the advice on the culture. I'll keep that in mind.


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## Meg90 (Aug 18, 2009)

He still eats, just not like he used to. I think he's hot. He doesn't bask directly under the light anymore, and sleeps on the cool side.

He wakes up EVERY night at 6:50-7 like clockwork since I have posted this. Anyone know what that means?? I added another hour to his timer, and have offered food later. 

I don't do morning feeds for him, just Anouk. Nigel I shoot for 3-4pm to feed.

Maybe I will skip tomorrow and see if that doesn't spark his appetite.


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## tortoisenerd (Aug 20, 2009)

I got Trevor back on his schedule by skipping a day of food (he had been eating the food that sat out all day in the late afternoon or evening vs. late morning as usual), and then waking him up at his usual time and giving him food the next day. I took it away in the afternoon, and repeating that the next day. That third day he started eating before noon like usual! Today, the fourth day, he did that again.

How does Nigel seem to like being fed in the afternoon after being up during the day? I have not heard of that before...I think most people feed in the morning when the light comes on. What hours does he have his light? If it works though, then it works. Don't mean to critique your husbandry.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Aug 20, 2009)

Just don't hesitate to take him to a herp knowledged vet if you feel worried... its always better to be safe. These torts can be worse than a new born baby to read


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## Maggie Cummings (Aug 20, 2009)

There seems to be something happening to the Hermanni/Mediterranean type tortoises right now. There are several keepers who say their torts have gone of their feed. I am still thinking it must be because the days are getting shorter and the quality of the sunlight is less...Just my opinion...


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## Meg90 (Aug 20, 2009)

I'm wondering if he has his seasons screwed up...I got him in November of last year, and he ate like a horse for the entire winter. I had heard that most Greeks gorge in the summer, to prepare themselves for scanter food availability in the coming winter, but Nigel is the opposite....

Nigel is still underweight. I had been feeding him twice a day to get his weight up, and it worked, he was only about 25g under. Now he is closer to 45g under......I have been bribing him with extra radicchio lately, its something he still has a taste for. I am hoping that he gets out of this funk soon. He was a little better today, it was 65 and raining here (they are lazy on rainy days though usually as well...) but he ate the second time I put his pile down. I don't know what it is with him.....

He tracks food everywhere....I'll find whole, intact leaves with toenail holes in them in his water dish, on top of his log. No bite marks, just shredded from his feet.

Lights come on a little before 7am I think...like 6:45. And his stays on til 9 now, versus 8pm.

This is what his enclosure looks like after one morning's worth of food


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## tortoisenerd (Aug 21, 2009)

What kind of food dish does he have? Maybe it needs to be larger, and in a corner, so he has to face into the corner to eat, and then reduce the tracking? I try to reduce how much food Trevor tracks around because he'll eat the food with the aspen on it. A piece every once in awhile is ok with me, but not on a regular basis. I have his slate tile (half a 12 inch by 12 inch for his 3 inch shell) on a wall. Haven't had to resort to the corner yet. I have it where I can view it best on the web cam, lol. We have lunch together a lot.

That's great Nigel ate! As far as his weight...do you think he might just be at a good weight for him? I could imagine some torts may not meet the "average" goal, even with a lot of food offered. Do you worry about him actually being underweight (in a bad way), or just under average?


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## Meg90 (Aug 21, 2009)

I have a tile in there, I think about 4x4 inches. I wanted to pick up a bigger one for him yesterday, but I ended up babysitting the whole day. I will def get a bigger one and try putting it in a corner so he can't walk all over his food

I am not sure about his weight...Nigel was my first tortoise. Anouk is a little piggy, and I can see gain in her every month, but Nigel came "light" and maybe you are right, and he is just under average.....


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## tortoisenerd (Aug 22, 2009)

If you end up taking him to the vet you can ask their opinion. If he just doesn't want more to eat though, not much you can do about that. Does he look scrawny, or just show that way on paper? Right now Trevor looks to have some chub, but it depends how mush he has his head out and what way you look at him. Just an example that there are some variables in the equation. The larger tile sounds good! That's not even large enough for him to get his whole body on. Trevor seems to do well with the tile several times larger than him so he has space to push the food around. Helps with his nails too. The slate tiles are about $2. If you need to break it to fit, you can use a curb...I found that to work well. Sanded the edges just in case too. The whole one would probably do well for him. What temperature would it be in the corner for him? I have Trevor's food in an area about 80 and he seems to like that. But he's still a grazer, going back and forth between basking and eating for a few hours at least.


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## Meg90 (Sep 9, 2009)

Nigel weighed 505g today. He hasn't touched food of his own free will for two days. I put him in front of his tile and he'll eat a little, but not nearly all of it. I added an extra light on the cool side, thinking maybe visibility might have been the problem....

I am taking him to the vet. What I want to know is, where should blood be taken from, etc.

Tell me what is OK and not OK. I don't want them manhandling him, "reptile" specialist or no.

Please help. 

With school, and Eglantine, and work, and now poor Nigel I am just about to crack up.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 9, 2009)

You know what? That's a darned good question! In all my years of tortoise-keeping and treating for illnesses, I've never had any blood work done. We went through a Russian tortoise DNA study a couple years ago and all they did was short-clip a toe nail and take a couple dabs of blood from that. But I doubt that would be enough blood for blood-tests. Interested in an answer to this one.

Yvonne


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## Tim/Robin (Sep 9, 2009)

They have a nice jugular vein on either side of their neck. One tortoise book we have says this is the best and easiest place to get a sample from. It is not too difficult to do, you just have to grap the head before they pull it inside. Robin and I drew a blood sample on our Indian Star and it wasn't too bad. But remember, we are nurses and insert IV's all the time. In fact, Robin is an IV nurse at our local hospital, so it is possible to do, but maybe not just any one can or should attempt.


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## egyptiandan (Sep 9, 2009)

As well as there  you can get blood from a vein on top of the tail and you can get blood from the elbow joint of the front leg. 

Danny


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## Meg90 (Sep 9, 2009)

Anybody have any idea what could be wrong with him?? Any other practices that I should be wary of? Poor fellow.


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## tortoisenerd (Sep 12, 2009)

How did it go? I would want to look any medications up online before my tort was giving them. Are you familiar with this vet at all? Get a personal recommendation? I have come to trust Trevor's vet even with only two visits. Did Nigel lose weight (what was his weight before)? Best wishes.


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## Meg90 (Sep 12, 2009)

I have been so damned busy all week, I didn't even have time to make an appointment, let alone go to one. He must have heard me say "vet" though, because he's been eating since I posted that. I feed a small pile in the morning, and he eats most of it, and another small pile in the afternoon.

I am giving him the "baby" treatment. IE waking his butt up when I put food down, and putting him right in front of it. It seems to help.

He'll still be going to the vet. I want him checked over. But I am glad that he is eating. He still goes for the radicchio with gusto....I'm thinking of getting a small head of it, grating it, and sprinkling it over his entire pile, so that he can't pick around the other stuff.

Nigel has lost weight. He used to be 570g (which is STILL underweight) but back then, he ate twice a day.

At this point, I am musing the idea that he might have parasites. They are known to halt weight gain, and aid in losing it.

What is the proper procedure at the vets for worming? I know ABSOLUTELY NO Ivermectrin. But what _should_ be used?

I know everyone says squash will worm at home. Can I have exact directions on how to do that (quantity, raw/cooked, how many days in a row?)? I am wanting to try everything else that I can, before I stress him with a car ride to the vet, and an office exam.


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## Tim/Robin (Sep 12, 2009)

You can use fenbendazole(Panacur). It is a common wormer. It is given orally at 50-100mg/kg every 2-3 weeks until a clean fecal. Panacur is a wormer, it will not work on Protozoans, that would need metrondiazole(Flagyl). You can buy fenbendazole at many feed stores. The liquid form is easiest to calculate doses, but it also comes in a paste. Here is what the liquid form looks like at feed stores http://www.wammocks.com/Safe-Guard-...2EA1862A1850CAF3060AF2FC02B7FB94.qscstrfrnt03
We have used it. It has a very safe margin and is nearly impossible to overdose an animal.


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## tortoisenerd (Sep 12, 2009)

I would think it's much easier to get a test for parasites and decide to treat accordingly than guess that's what he has or doesn't have. I wouldn't want to wait and see, and I also wouldn't want to worm a tort unnecessarily. My vet cost $50 plus $20 for a fecal. There are other possibilities for weight loss. You say he eats twice a day--how much? You can also try feeding higher calorie foods like Mazuri. Any other symptoms at this time besides lethargy and loss of appetite?


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## Gulf Coast (Sep 12, 2009)

Meg, I'm sorry Nigel is feeling bad.. I would try and get him to the vet on Monday. Do they take walk ins? I would't worry about him riding in the car. If we need to take Waldo anywhere, he just rides in our laps and he is fine with that. Maybe you can try a dark box so as not to upset him.. Will his rubbermaid box fit in your car? Thing is if something is really wrong you need to get treatment going sooner than later.. I sure hope the little guy is okay.. Everyone here knows how much you love him.


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## tortoisenerd (Sep 12, 2009)

A shoebox or whatever works great. I have a small Rubbermaid I take Trevor in (same one he's in when we change his substrate or he goes out on the patio for a bit).


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## bettinge (Sep 13, 2009)

I cook Butternut squash and serve once a week! I buy the whole squash, cut and freeze it raw, and cook the one square inch chunks when needed. I steam it! They love it! I hear Pumpkin is great as well, start to look for one at a farm market. 

I don't think you can OD on squash, so serving for a week or more should not be a problem. If he loves squash like mine do, it may help put weight on as well!


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## Meg90 (Sep 13, 2009)

That's just it--he's not lethargic. He is up and about just like normal. He just seems to not be interested in his food. And I have tried Mazuri. He turns his nose up.

Dr. Pope's office is a 25-35 minute drive for us.


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## Crazy1 (Sep 13, 2009)

Meg, I am sorry Nigel is still not feeling himself. I know Dr. Pope is about a 35 minute drive but it may just be worth the trip. I would ask for a culture to be done. My vet took a swab and slid it gently down to the stomach area and then had it cultured. it should show any protozoa, Worms etc. Here are just a short list of some things that can curb appetite and cause wt loss.
Parasites
Sterile gut syndrome
Renal or Liver dysfunction
Anorexia
Diabetes
Protozoa
Mycoplasma
Herpes
I do not want to alarm you this can just rule out what Nigel does not have. Perhaps it is just hot and he is responding to it. Or to your very active lifestyle at this time. But better safe than sorry.


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## Stazz (Sep 13, 2009)

Awwww little Nigel !!!! I will pray for him Meg. Give him a kissy from Tallula hehe, maybe that will make him feel better.


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## Marshman (Sep 14, 2009)

Sorry Meg,
I here ya tho Walter is still not eating much of anything and seems fairly active noticed lately that when i pick him up when he is asleep it takes awhile for his eyes to open but the whole time he is trying to get away he pushes with legs still seems really strong. I with the VET advice because that's what I decided this weekend just to be sure luckily for me my wife is a VET Tech although I now more about reptiles and stuff I have became good friends with the docs at here clinic and trust them very much.


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## Crazy1 (Sep 14, 2009)

Marshman sorry to hear Chico our boxer passed. 

Meg don't want to scare you or anything. But even 2 weeks before I lost Lilbit the vet said she seemed pretty strong and active. But I had noticed how much she was inactive and weak, compared to her before she was ill. Nigel may also be feeling the effects of the new kid on the block even though they are not kept together. Have you tried taking him outside and see how he is out there?

It may be the time of the year that has caused him to slow down. But mine are outside and eating up a storm weather has been hot 87F-109F. The ones inside are doing good even Biggie who was not eating much and Dotsy who seemed to have a runny nose is fine now and eating up a storm.


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## Marshman (Sep 15, 2009)

Thanks Robyn it was a very sad day for me and especially my wife she had him for 9 years. Our house feels so empty without him.


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## Tim/Robin (Sep 29, 2009)

Update? How is Nigel? Did you take him to the vet?


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## Meg90 (Sep 29, 2009)

He's doing better. It has cooled down here majorly in the last few weeks, and he eats now when I put his food down. I don't have to set him by the tile anymore. Its a smaller portion, but he isn't letting it go to waste like he was.

I am finding that I am having better luck with full leaves, than with springmix. I might stick to different types of lettuces for a while with him, and just rotate.

I'm picking up some pumpkin, since they are in season now, and will try that with him to worm him the old fashioned way, one more time. 

I am taking Egg in first, to see Dr. Pope. If he knows what he's doing with actual problems (like her beak and shell rot) I am going to trust him with Nigel.

My logic is that Egg NEEDS a vet, so I will take her to the reptile vet here, and see how this Vet knows his stuff. If he's good, I will have him look at Nigel. If he's mediocre, I will not waste my time, and stress Nigel further. I will look for a different vet instead.


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## tortoisenerd (Sep 29, 2009)

Best wishes Meg! Sounds like you have your hands full.


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## Meg90 (Sep 29, 2009)

Oh yeah. I swear, they're all in on some big conspiracy to drive me crazy!

I'm just happy he's eating again. Egg is still being miss picky, but we're making some progress. 

All the food in my fridge (or rather, the majority) is for some animal or other! I'm chock full of fruit, lettuces, gecko powder, ground meats and live insects that are ALL not for Reid and I!

Its gotten to the point that Reid will buy food for them without me asking. He picks out plums and I'm like, good! I was craving some plums! And he's like, "These are for the boxie--I'll grab a couple more for us"


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## Stazz (Sep 29, 2009)

Hahahahaha so good to hear Reid is so into your babies too. Hahaha funny about the plums.


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