# 3 Killer Whales die within 4 months at Sea World



## Candy

Have you seen this video? 

http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/what-s-killing-the-killer-whales-22327329


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## tortoiseluvr

I just watched it and it doesn't surprise me. There is a documentary about dolphins in whales living in captivity called "The Cove" and I would highly recommend it. It does focus on a dolphins and the brutal killing of them in Japan, but the movie does also go into depth about why captivity does not work for these amazing creatures. The movie also won an Oscar. Dolphins and whales endure great stress in captivity and often have to be treated for things like ulcers. Suicide seems to be an issue because they have to work to take each breath, so they will chose to stop breathing. This may be why many are dying at SeaWorld.


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## Skyler Nell

I'm not surprised by that at all. You just can't keep a huge animal like that couped up. It'd be like keeping a sulcata in one room its entire life. Think of how fast they move and what a small area they have available in comparison.


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## DeanS

The problem with keeping orcas in captivity presents the same problem as keeping elephants in zoos. They get bored. They can't live normal lives. Enrichment is no substitute for natural behavior. What a DAMN shame!


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## Isa

So sad and so frustrating  Poor whales, it is true that they are sooo huge, they need a lot of space to be happy, they need the ocean. 
Thanks for sharing Candy.


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## Candy

tortoiseluvr said:


> I just watched it and it doesn't surprise me. There is a documentary about dolphins in whales living in captivity called "The Cove" and I would highly recommend it. It does focus on a dolphins and the brutal killing of them in Japan, but the movie does also go into depth about why captivity does not work for these amazing creatures. The movie also won an Oscar. Dolphins and whales endure great stress in captivity and often have to be treated for things like ulcers. Suicide seems to be an issue because they have to work to take each breath, so they will chose to stop breathing. This may be why many are dying at SeaWorld.



I have heard of Suicide in Whales before but did not know if it is true or not. I do have The Cove recorded on my dvd player, but am actually afraid to watch it as I get very upset when I see animals being abused. 

I told my 23 year old today that I totally regret ever taking them to Sea World when they were younger, but I also told him that I didn't even think about how they should be kept or even how they were being kept. Education, that's what people need to make their own decisions on whether or not they want entertainment this badly. This video helps to educate the public on just what they are paying for at the door.


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## Yourlocalpoet

Candy said:


> tortoiseluvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just watched it and it doesn't surprise me. There is a documentary about dolphins in whales living in captivity called "The Cove" and I would highly recommend it. It does focus on a dolphins and the brutal killing of them in Japan, but the movie does also go into depth about why captivity does not work for these amazing creatures. The movie also won an Oscar. Dolphins and whales endure great stress in captivity and often have to be treated for things like ulcers. Suicide seems to be an issue because they have to work to take each breath, so they will chose to stop breathing. This may be why many are dying at SeaWorld.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have heard of Suicide in Whales before but did not know if it is true or not. I do have The Cove recorded on my dvd player, but am actually afraid to watch it as I get very upset when I see animals being abused.
> 
> I told my 23 year old today that I totally regret ever taking them to Sea World when they were younger, but I also told him that I didn't even think about how they should be kept or even how they were being kept. Education, that's what people need to make their own decisions on whether or not they want entertainment this badly. This video helps to educate the public on just what they are paying for at the door.
Click to expand...


The Cove focuses more on the stupidity, arrogance and brutality of human beings as opposed to the slaughter of the dolphins. It's actually quite refreshing to see the lengths that people will go to to 'uncover the truth' if you will, about the things that are happening behind closed doors, and expose the people who are lying to the Japanese populace about where their meat comes from and what's in it. There is obviously a brief scene of the dolphin slaughter but as the film makers had to break the law and risk their own welfare to obtain the footage it isn't too dolphin slaughter footage heavy. I recommend you watch it Candy, it's in all senses of the phrase, an eye opener.


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## HarleyK

The cove is such a great film. I highly recommend it and it is educational.


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## Skyler Nell

[/quote]
I have heard of Suicide in Whales before but did not know if it is true or not. I do have The Cove recorded on my dvd player, but am actually afraid to watch it as I get very upset when I see animals being abused. 
[/quote]

Then definitely don't watch it! I'm usually pretty strong about stuff like this though it does upset me. But I actually had to walk away because I started to feel sick, I was so disgusted with what was going on. It's extremely intense  and sad


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## terryo

I didn't sleep the whole night after watching. You know how I feel about this stuff Candy. 
This should say "WHEN all the creatures are gone........

" If all the creatures were gone, men would die from a great loneliness of the spirit. 

For whatever happens to the creatures soon happens to man "

Chief Seattle ~ 1854 ~


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## ChiKat

Disgusting. I will never take my future children to Sea World, the circus, etc. I would never support those organizations.


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## Candy

I feel so bad now Terry I didn't mean for you to loose sleep. I love your quote and I agree with it. 

Katie there are much better ways for your future children to learn about whales and dolphins. I know that you already know that though.


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## Tom

I know you all mean well, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Do ANY of know even one single trainer or employee that works with these animals? I do. They dedicate their entire lives to meeting EVERY need of these great creatures. They have several different ENTIRE departments tending to every aspect of these whales lives. Entire DEPARTMENTS of people! They have a far better life than their wild counter parts with out all the stress, danger and strife of wild living. And don't forget they usually ended up where they are for reason.

You guys talk about what they NEED, and about their "happiness", but you really don't have any idea about either. You are talking about your easily manipulated emotions and feelings, not facts.

I'm not trying to start a fight here. And I respect and like each any every one of you. But I do want to expose you to the possibility that you are being misled by the highly biased media. These are the same folks that tell you all pitbulls are vicious face eating monsters. Anyone whose ever been around these dogs knows its not true. The picture that is painted for you by the media is very far from reality when it comes to cetaceans in captivity. When you have had the behind the scenes tours and know the trainers personally you will see a different picture. The guy who invented that "nose diving" trick and first trained it in 1984 is a personal friend of mine. Many of the people who run and staff Sea World in San Diego are former class mates of mine. They are not evil OR ignorant about the needs of these animals. Please understand that they know a lot more about what Orcas need than any of you OR me.


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## Isa

terryo said:


> " If all the creatures were gone, men would die from a great loneliness of the spirit.
> 
> For whatever happens to the creatures soon happens to man "
> 
> Chief Seattle ~ 1854 ~



Beautiful Terry  Thanks for sharing with us!


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## Candy

Well Tom it seems that your emotions are actually getting the best of you on this thread. Where did we mention the trainers or your friends and what does that have to do with the well being of these creatures? You are not an expert on Killer Whales so excuse me if I listen to the ones who are before I listen to you on this issue. Your friends might be what you call "experts" in the field of training them in captivity but I'm not talking about that and neither is this video. This video is talking about what's best for them, Sea World is talking about what's best for their own wallet. If your trying to say that they are happier where they are at Sea World well I'm just going to overlook that comment because that is just not true as many experts have already stated throughout many years of studying them. I'm not interested in arguing on this thread just in passing it on to others and letting them have the information to research it themselves. You're more then welcome to provide other resources.


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## Candy

I want to pass the information to people who have not thought about the way they're captured and what danger they are in once they are captured. I want to pass on information on how long they live in captivity compared to the wild. So here's some more information for people to look at that give you the statistics of what is happening or has happened to these whales. Now I've read most of these, but not all yet. I think you'll find it interesting reading.

http://www.orcahome.de/orcadead.htm

http://www.orcahome.de/lifeexpectancy.htm

http://www.orcahome.de/lolita.htm

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-02-25/...ath_1_killer-whales-trainer-seaworld?_s=PM:US

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-02-25/...ath_1_killer-whales-trainer-seaworld?_s=PM:US

www,orcanetwork.org/index.html 

http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/killer-whales-captivity-sea-world-t


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## TylerStewart

Look out, it's Candy on an emotional rampage again! 

Maybe I'm the only one, but if I was a dolphin or an orca, I think I would prefer to live at Sea World knowing a meal was coming my way, than to be out in the wild having to fight and work hard for food.


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## chadk

Well, we have wild orcas around here that I've been able to get pretty close to at times. They have a pretty darned good life. As long as some guy in a boat doesn't hit one with his boat and prop or it doesn't get caught in a fishing net or something. Hunting for food is where the 'fun' is at. They thrive on it. Here, it is mostly salmon, which there is plenty of most of the year. They travel in pods based on family ties. Not sure they would really want to give up their pod and their hunting of salmon and sea lions...

Also note, orcas are top predators and enjoy the hunt and killing. They will toss live sea lions and seals around like toys for long periods of time before eating them (and sometimes they don't even bother eating them -they were just having fun). They are not cute little 'free willy' critters you just want to hug in real life...


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## terryo

"They have a far better life than their wild counter parts without all the stress, danger and strife of wild living." 

But isn't that part of being free, to make their own choices, to hunt for food, to be as nature intended, etc. Freedom is what everyone fights for in this world, whether it be human freedom, or animal freedom. Most living things would rather be dead then not be free. 

I don't think Candy or anyone else is talking about the trainers or the care takers. Most are very devoted to the animals in their care. 
I know everything you are saying is true about the care they are getting, and their devoted care takers Tom, but IMHO, CERTAIN animals shouldn't be in captivity no matter how wonderful the care is that they are given. (I said certain, so please people don't start with the tortoises that we keep) These guys should be out frolicking in the sea, not in a tub.


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## Isa

chadk said:


> Well, we have wild orcas around here that I've been able to get pretty close to at times. They have a pretty darned good life. As long as some guy in a boat doesn't hit one with his boat and prop or it doesn't get caught in a fishing net or something. Hunting for food is where the 'fun' is at. They thrive on it. Here, it is mostly salmon, which there is plenty of most of the year. They travel in pods based on family ties. Not sure they would really want to give up their pod and their hunting of salmon and sea lions...



Thanks for the info Chad 
When they get caught in fishing net, do you know if they save it by cutting the net or something to let the orcas go?


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## Madkins007

The role of captive wild animals in our society is awkward. We have done it for about as far back as recorded history goes, and it has become increasingly controversial. We used to do it to show off our dominion over animals, our wealth, our hunting prowness, or other forms of ego and pride. Then, it became a business- what cool things can we show that will bring you and your money to us?

Modern animal collections, SeaWorld, zoos, etc., view themselves as a place for people to meet animals on a more personal level than they could though movies, static displays, etc. The view is that we will not protect what we don't appreciate (that is a paraphrase of a quote I cannot find- anyone know the real quote?)

They try hard, and most of them use independent auditors or supervisory agencies to help make sure they are doing the best they can based on what we know.

It is a bit unfair in this clip to put Humane Society experts up against SeaWorld experts- these are two groups with an agenda and a bias. I would have loved to have seen what experts from someplace like the Scipps Institute (is that the right name?) or other people with no real agenda would have said.

There is also a governmental regulation agency for zoos and aquariums, as well as a few private agencies. It would be interesting to know their views.



HOWEVER... I really do not see how you can keep a really big smart animal in a really small plain habitat and have it be happy and healthy. It is great theater, but I really, really doubt it is the best option available. Surely there are other species that are easier to keep more happily that can accomplish similar goals?

(And, Tom- I am using 'happy' here to mean more something like low-stress, enriched, challenged, etc. than the anthromorphic human sense. I wish I had a better word- any ideas?)


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## Candy

TylerStewart said:


> Look out, it's Candy on an emotional rampage again!
> 
> Maybe I'm the only one, but if I was a dolphin or an orca, I think I would prefer to live at Sea World knowing a meal was coming my way, than to be out in the wild having to fight and work hard for food.



I'm not being emotional Tyler but what you are saying is that you'd rather live in jail, have your choices made for you by the government-jail? If you want to get emotional about it maybe you should try thinking things through before you say it. Thanks for the help for supporting my side.

Chad my husband really liked your post. He says that you think your answer through very well before posting it. I would love to be able to see the whales like you do. That would be too cool. I know how they kill other animals it can be pretty nasty actually, but that's nature.

Madkins your post reminds me of the idea of the "PURSUIT" of happiness being the goal.


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## alfiethetortoise

Terryo - sorry to play devils advocate but is anoyone ever 'free'? I lived for some time in China. I saw several people, friends of myne, being thrown into the back of a van and interrogated all because they had bought a 'western' newspaper of a street seller. 

I agree with Tom. I love Sea World. I took Ava to Sea World Florida on our USA tour because i have had a long time interest in Orca. Yes, it is possible to see Orca in the wild but at great expense for many people and dependent on so many other things. Educationally, financially, many people would not see a Killer Whale if they could only see one in the wild. Ava still now talks about how she fed the dolphins, and saw the big whales even though this trip was six months ago. I have no qualms about giving sea world money. I think they do a great job.

Orca's are housed in areas that conform with convensions - they are not allowed to be kept in goldfish bowls living miserable lives. If fact, the activities they are taught in captivity keep them mentally stimulated so they are not wallowing around bored. 

Orca kept in captivity do not understand 'pods' as in the wild where they have complex social structures, but they become 'pod' with those other whales kept with them. Some of those whales harvested will never be as 'humanised' as those who were bred and reared in captivity as they learnt natural instinct of other wild whales. 

Mmm, i wonder about the mental health of the dolphins, gorillas, bonobo, chimpanzee, orangatang, elephants. Perhaps we should be complaining about them because thier enclosures can't possibly be stimulating enough either. Is it just sea world you dont like, or are you avoiding all zoo's? If not, why not? And hang on a minuite, don't all you people keep tortoise as pets? To play devils advocate, Wouldn't they be better off in the wild? Maybe then they could be free and run over, eaten by dogs etc?


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## TylerStewart

Candy said:


> what you are saying is that you'd rather live in jail, have your choices made for you by the government-jail?



You're assuming that these animals realize that they're even in captivity, and that there are other options out there. As much as everyone would love to believe that dolphins etc are as smart as people, and remember their mom who is still in the wild in the ocean and cry about it every day, it's simply not true. Sure, I think that captive facilities are borderline too small for things like killer whales, but I don't think it's cruel to keep them there. You make the argument that PETA would make; that they're in jail, and anything PETA would use in an argument is obviously slanted very heavily. Like Alfie just said, and I've said in the past, why is Sea World the bad guy for housing them, when your tortoises are probably much more neglected than _any_ of Sea World's animals are? You like to say that others can't keep them or shouldn't, yet you do the exact same thing. Why do other people have enclosures too small and need to change this or that, yet you would never take the same advice yourself? 

Like someone else said earlier, having them in captivity for people to see up close is a huge part of what makes people want to protect them in the wild.


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## terryo

"when your tortoises are probably much more neglected than any of Sea World's animals are?" 

Tyler, you are certainly welcomed to your opinion, as are the rest of us. I respect EVERYONE'S opinion, even though I don't agree with them.....But....when you make a statement like that one, it's kind of ridiculous, isn't it? I think the people on this forum, treat their tortoises almost as well as they do their own children. Neglected???? I don't think so. 

It's very hard to debate a subject like this, as people have very strong views......like politics.....but we are all entitled to our opinion.

"Terryo - sorry to play devils advocate but is anoyone ever 'free'? I lived for some time in China. I saw several people, friends of myne, being thrown into the back of a van and interrogated all because they had bought a 'western' newspaper of a street seller. "

Brook...I don't live in China...I live in America. I'm free. I can read what I want, eat what I want...and say what I want...etc. So, yes, we are free. I, as a free person, would not want to live where I couldn't be free. But I DO respect your opinion.


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## alfiethetortoise

My point is that you are 'free' or at least you think you are (you are not 'free to do certain things as stated by US law) but that generally, elsewhere, many others are not 'free' and could not begin to even understand such 'freedom'. 

You know, sometimes i do forget to feed Alfie, sometimes i am so tired that i dont have the energy to take Ava to the park or on a playdate, sometimes, i go out for a couple of hours in a rush and i know that Ruby has no water. Neglected? Some people may think so. Maybe i'm a terrible person. I'm sure that at Sea World there are protocalls so that an Orca never misses a meal.


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## hali

oh dear its a toughy isnt it - in an ideal world maybe these magnificent animals should be free and let loose in the wild (if born there) but if born in capitivy im not so sure.

Brooke we went to Sea world in 2005 ( a once in a lifetime experience from UK) and i have to say it was the most emotional experience i have ever had and will remember for all my life along with my childrens reactions. I cried when i saw the Orcas the most amazing experience i will ever remember along with everything else i saw and touched there.

Im not saying its right but never would i have see these amazing animals if it wasnt there x


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## Candy

alfiethetortoise said:


> Terryo - sorry to play devils advocate but is anoyone ever 'free'? I lived for some time in China. I saw several people, friends of myne, being thrown into the back of a van and interrogated all because they had bought a 'western' newspaper of a street seller.
> 
> I agree with Tom. I love Sea World. I took Ava to Sea World Florida on our USA tour because i have had a long time interest in Orca. Yes, it is possible to see Orca in the wild but at great expense for many people and dependent on so many other things. Educationally, financially, many people would not see a Killer Whale if they could only see one in the wild. Ava still now talks about how she fed the dolphins, and saw the big whales even though this trip was six months ago. I have no qualms about giving sea world money. I think they do a great job.
> 
> Orca's are housed in areas that conform with convensions - they are not allowed to be kept in goldfish bowls living miserable lives. If fact, the activities they are taught in captivity keep them mentally stimulated so they are not wallowing around bored.
> 
> Orca kept in captivity do not understand 'pods' as in the wild where they have complex social structures, but they become 'pod' with those other whales kept with them. Some of those whales harvested will never be as 'humanised' as those who were bred and reared in captivity as they learnt natural instinct of other wild whales.
> 
> Mmm, i wonder about the mental health of the dolphins, gorillas, bonobo, chimpanzee, orangatang, elephants. Perhaps we should be complaining about them because thier enclosures can't possibly be stimulating enough either. Is it just sea world you dont like, or are you avoiding all zoo's? If not, why not? And hang on a minuite, don't all you people keep tortoise as pets? To play devils advocate, Wouldn't they be better off in the wild? Maybe then they could be free and run over, eaten by dogs etc?



I can tell you Brooke at what expense, it's at the expense of the whales and the dolphins. If my children never saw a Killer Whale until they reached adulthood what would that hurt them really? People think that it's a crime not to show their children these exhibits because they are there, but it's really not. What do you mean they are not housed in fishbowls. Have you seen the back tanks that they are kept in at Sea World Florida? I have and you can also take a look just google it and it will show you the amount of space that they have to swim around in everyday, and Brooke it is shameful when you think about how many miles these swim a day in the wild. I would like to know where you got your information on the pods because I do not agree with it. Elephants don't forget much and it took researchers quite a bit of studying them to find this out so how do we know what they remember and don't remember? I have read quite a bit about Killer Whales and have many times read that these activities do not keep them stimulated like living in the wild would do. And about zoos no I don't think that it's a good idea especially when it comes to the elephants. And as for the tortoises I have quite a bit of property for my 7 inch, 4 inch and 3 inch and even my 12 inch ones to roam around on. This would be one reason that I wouldn't adopt a Sulcata because they just get too big and it wouldn't be right not to give them more space to roam around in then what I have.


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## Candy

This is from Tylers post:



I think that captive facilities are borderline too small for things like killer whales, but I don't think it's cruel to keep them there.

Borderline Tyler are you serious? Borderline to what, the ocean, are you kidding? I think that you might want to rephrase that one and please in none of these posts did I post Peta's name so please if you can't state your own on facts about Killer Whales then please don't fall back on Peta to get you out of it. 



This is from Madkins post:


It is a bit unfair in this clip to put Humane Society experts up against SeaWorld experts- these are two groups with an agenda and a bias. I would have loved to have seen what experts from someplace like the Scipps Institute (is that the right name?) or other people with no real agenda would have said.

Madkins I did post websites to give statics on these Killer Whales did you read any of them? Here are the resources that they used. I think PHd's are reputable. 

WHAT IS AN ORCA? What is an Orca?

Sources and References

BAIN. D. E. 1989 An evaluation of evolutionary processes: Studies of natural selection, dispersal, and cultural evolution in killer whale (Orcinus orca). Ph.D dissertation, University of California, Santa Cruz.

BALCOMB, K.C. 1991. Kith and kin of the killer whale. Pacific Discovery, 44 (2), 8-17.

BARRETT-LENNARD, L.G., John K.B. Ford and Kathy A. Heise. 1996. The mixed blessing of echolocation: differences in sonar use by fish eating and marine mammal eating killer whales. Anim. Behav., 51, 553-565.

BIGG, M.A., G.M. Ellis, J.K.B. Ford and K.C. Balcomb, III. 1987. Killer Whales: A Study of their Identification, Genealogy & Natural History in British Columbia and Washington State. Phantom Press, Nanaimo, B.C. pp 1 - 79.

BIGG, M.A., P.F. Olesiuk, G.M. Ellis, J.K.B. Ford and K.C. Balcomb, III. 1990. Social organization and genealogy of resident killer whales (Orcinus orca) in the coastal waters of British Columbia and Washington state. Rep. Int. Whal. Comm. (Special Issue 12), 383 - 405.

BRIGGS, D. 1991. Impact on killer whales. Province of British Columbia, Ministry of Parks, pp 1 -37.

FORD, J.K.B. 1984. Call traditions and dialects of killer whales (Orcinus orca) in British Columbia. Ph.D. thesis, University of British Columbia, Vancouver.

FORD, J.K.B. 1985. Acoustic traditions of killer whales. Whalewatcher. American Cetacean Society.

FORD, J.K.B. 1989. Acoustic behaviour of resident killer whales (Orcinus orca) off Vancouver Island, British Columbia. Can. J. Zool. 67: 727 - 745.

FORD, J.K.B., G.M. Ellis and K.C. Balcomb, III. 1994. Killer Whales: The Natural History and Genealogy of Orcinus orca in British Columbia and Washington State. UBC Press, Vancouver and University of Washington Press, Seattle.

HOYT, E. 1990. Orca, The Whale Called Killer. Third Edition, Robert Hale, London, pp 1 - 291.

HOYT, E. 1992. The Performing Orca - Why the Show Must Stop, Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society, Bath, U.K. 1 - 102.

JACOBSEN,J.K. 1990. Associations and social behaviors among killer whales (Orcinus orca) in the Johnstone Strait, British Columbia, 12979 - 1986. M.A. thesis, Humboldt State University, California.

KIRKEVOLD, B.C. and J.S. Lockard, eds. 1986. Behavioral Biology of Killer Whales. Alan R Liss Inc., New York. pp 1 - 457.

INTERNATIONAL WHALING COMMISSION. 1982. Special Issue 12. Proceedings of killer whale workshop.

NICHOL, L.M. 1990. Seasonal movements and foraging behaviour of resident killer whales (Orcinus orca) in relation to the inshore distribution of salmon (Oncorhynchus spp.) in British Columbia. M. Sc. thesis, University of British Columbia.

OLESIUK,P.F., M.A. Bigg, and G. Ellis. 1990. Life history and population dynamics of resident killer whales (Orcinus orca) in the coastal waters of British Columbia and Washington State. Rep. Int. Whal. Comm. (Special Issue 12): 209 - 243.

OSBORNE, R., J. Calambokidis, and E. Dorsey. 1987. A Field Guide to the Marine Mammals of Greater Puget Sound. Island Publishers, Anacortes, Washington.

ROSE, N.A. 1992. The social dynamics of male killer whales (Orcinus orca) in Johnstone Strait, British Columbia. Ph.D. dissertation, University of California, Santa Cruz.

SPONG, P. 1991. Corky come home. BBC Wildlife, 9: 164 - 171.

SPONG, P. 1991. From the wild side: let's focus on ethics. Whalewatcher, Spring, pp 20 -21.

SPONG, P. 1995. Good girl, Corky. BBC Wildlife, vol. 13 No. 8: 28 -34.

WAITE, J.M. 1988. Alloparental care in killer whales (Orcinus orca). M.Sc. thesis, University of California, Santa Cruz.

WHALE AND DOLPHIN CONSERVATION SOCIETY. 1991. Conserving our Marine Environment: the world of whales and dolphins.


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## terryo

alfiethetortoise said:


> My point is that you are 'free' or at least you think you are (you are not 'free to do certain things as stated by US law) but that generally, elsewhere, many others are not 'free' and could not begin to even understand such 'freedom'.
> 
> You know, sometimes i do forget to feed Alfie, sometimes i am so tired that i dont have the energy to take Ava to the park or on a playdate, sometimes, i go out for a couple of hours in a rush and i know that Ruby has no water. Neglected? Some people may think so. Maybe i'm a terrible person. I'm sure that at Sea World there are protocalls so that an Orca never misses a meal.



Brook, I have never been so tired that I forgot to feed or give water to any of my animals, even when all 5 of my sons were little and living at home......and brother was I tired. I have put a lot of time, money, effort and love into all my animals, so to forget to feed them, would be unthinkable to me. None of my animals are ever neglected. They are members of my family.
I am sure the trainers and care takers at Sea World do a wonderful job with the animals there, but that is not what this thread is about. It is about certain animals that shouldn't be in captivity. 
I don't think I could compare a Whale, or an Elephant living in unnatural surroundings to a CB tortoise that has the run of someone's yard, or a large enclosure.


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## Candy

alfiethetortoise said:


> My point is that you are 'free' or at least you think you are (you are not 'free to do certain things as stated by US law) but that generally, elsewhere, many others are not 'free' and could not begin to even understand such 'freedom'.
> 
> You know, sometimes i do forget to feed Alfie, sometimes i am so tired that i dont have the energy to take Ava to the park or on a playdate, sometimes, i go out for a couple of hours in a rush and i know that Ruby has no water. Neglected? Some people may think so. Maybe i'm a terrible person. I'm sure that at Sea World there are protocalls so that an Orca never misses a meal.



Brooke have you looked at the websites that I posted and read them to see the true statics of how many of these animals have died to entertain you? Have you seen how many that were born in captivity have died? I think you missed that post of mine. Please take a look at it. This is not just about emotions it's about facts.


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## terryo

I don't think I could compare a Whale, or an Elephant living in unnatural surroundings to a CB tortoise that has the run of someone's yard, or a large enclosure. 

I don't know how this post doubled....sorry


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## Candy

I have to agree Terry. And I myself am not charging for someone to come watch my tortoise do tricks and profiting off of them.


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## BethyB1022

I think there have been some good points raised on both sides on this issue. 

Chad- I really appreciated your comments.

The first time I saw orcas in the wild it was such a humbling experience. I remember thinking that the whales looked so tiny. At first I thought they were all babies. Then I realized that I was used to seeing them in tanks. I wanted to share some photos of a pod of orcas that I saw around Seward, Alaska. I took them from a boat so they are not the best. Obviously the whales did not know they were supposed to pose for pictures!


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## Tom

Candy said:


> Well Tom it seems that your emotions are actually getting the best of you on this thread.



That's just ridiculous. This has nothing to do with emotions, except yours which are the basis for all of your points. As for your citations, someone earning a PHD does not make them all knowing and unbiased. For an example of incompetent advice from a doctor, look at some of the veterinary advice given for tortoises. Most vets are still telling people that torts pyramid due to excess protein in the diet.

I bring up the trainers and my friends because they work with these animals ALL DAY, EVERY DAY. Don't you think they know more than someone who read a book or went to college? They know these animals better than they know their own families sometimes. They sleep poolside whenever there is a problem or imminent birth.

What I'm saying is that through my experiences and friends, I know more about these animals than the average person, but I don't know enough about what it takes to make them "happy" or meet their needs to be making the judgement calls and blanket assertions that you are making. You know even less than me.

And with all due respect to TerryO, all of our torts have huge natural ranges in the wild. You think your 12" tort has enough room in your back yard? He'd be cramped in a 10 acre pen compared to the wild. I don't see where the disconnect is between YOUR captive wild animals and Sea World's captive wild animals is. If you say that some were wild caught, well so were some of yours and their parents. It is completely hypocritical to point the finger at Sea World for housing captive animals that you decided, based on unfounded emotion, shouldn't be captive, while you have an assortment of captive animals for your own entertainment in your own back yard! If you think the rank and file at Sea World and similar parks is in it for the money, then you are ridiculously ignorant. They get paid squat and have terrible benefits. This is a primary reason that I decided not to throw fish and blow a whistle for a living. I love the water. I love training. And I love cetaceans. But I didn't want to live a life of poverty, so I chose to work elsewhere. Those people do it out of passion and love for the animals. I think its terrible that you would take away their meager lively-hood, their reason for living, and a tremendous educational opportunity for the general public, because you have decided to have a hypocritical animal rightist slant.

Remember, the reason we are all here on this forum is because we all have captive wild animals in our own homes. There is no difference in your CDT or redfoots and my sulcatas and leopards and Sea World's Killer Whales. Same concept, same difference. You and me selfishly keep ours hidden away in our backyards while at least Sea World, the other parks and the zoos are taking terrific steps toward educating the public and conservation for these animals in the wild. There is a reason why captive animals are called "ambassadors" for their species.



Madkins007 said:


> The role of captive wild animals in our society is awkward. We have done it for about as far back as recorded history goes, and it has become increasingly controversial. We used to do it to show off our dominion over animals, our wealth, our hunting prowness, or other forms of ego and pride. Then, it became a business- what cool things can we show that will bring you and your money to us?



Mark you make some good points. But this isn't one of them. You speculate on the whole world's reasons for keeping captive animals and I disagree. Both now and then, I think it stems more from fascination, admiration and awe, than the factors you mentioned. I didn't want a turtle at 7 years old to bring in money or have dominion over anything. I wanted it because I though it was really cool and neat. I loved my turtle, cried when he got sick and adored my time in the yard with him watching him explore.


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## ChiKat

The Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society (WDCS) states the following:



> Despite captive facilities claiming that the animals are better off in captivity and have access to medical care, captive orcas still die earlier then their wild relatives, suffer enormously from stress and show abnormal behaviors.
> WDCS believes that orcas should no longer be kept in concrete tanks to entertain humans. WDCS is working towards an end to the keeping of all whales and dolphins in captivity.



http://www.wdcs-na.org/story_details.php?select=243


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## Madkins007

Candy- my point about experts was that the _news story_ did not include anyone other than the two most combative viewpoints. I know most experts are against keeping such large animals in captivity, but they generally have better rationale than the US Humane Society or PETA.

Tom- I meant large scale animal collections, not personal pets or herds. Kings of old kept cheetahs and rare antelopes for different reasons than their subjects kept tortoises or trained birds. 

However, you are right that there is a strong emotional connection between people and animals.

Today was apparently not a very clear day for me, but it's been a rough week and I am really short on sleep. Sorry!


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## terryo

With all due respect to you Tom, and I totally mean that, because I really do respect you and your work, but everything you said, is still only your opinion, which I happen to disagree with. 
Do you really think that my 7 in. tortoise, who rarely walks to the full length of his enclosure is stressed? He doesn't looked stressed to me. Also, none of my animals are wild caught. When I look on a classified and see someone holding a beautiful, scared, stressed box turtle that they just plucked out of the woods and are selling for $250 plus shipping, it turns my stomach.
All of my animals were CB, even the rescue ones that I have now, and I've raised them in the best possible environment that I could give them. None of them had their freedom taken away from them for my entertainment, or to educate anyone.

"I think its terrible that you would take away their meager lively-hood, their reason for living, and a tremendous educational opportunity for the general public, because you have decided to have a hypocritical animal rightist slant."
Where have I ever said that I wanted to take away someone's livelihood, and their reason for living? And, I have NEVER decided to have a hypocritical animal rightist slant.....I have no idea where this is coming from, and it doesn't even make sense to me. Tom...I'm sorry if I upset you with my personal opinion, but after all I am entitled to it, just like you. 
Why do all these "friendly debates" always turn into a bashing session? I am really done with debates on the forum


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## ChiKat

I have no doubt in my mind that the trainers love these animals- that's not the issue here, and I don't think anyone is trying to imply that.
They care for them as best as they possibly can _in captivity_...which is not ultimately what is best for them. The ocean is their natural habitat and it's where they belong.

In the Wild...
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Orcas live in large, closely-knit, highly complex social groups typically numbering 5 - 25 members.
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Members are related by blood and remain together for life. 
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ The pod may travel as many as 160 km (100 miles) in a day, in a home range of maybe 800 - 1,500 km (500-900 miles). 
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ They forage for live prey and socialise, rest and play as a cohesive group. 
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Free will and freedom of movement characterise their existence. 
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ They are supremely adapted over centuries to cope with the rigours of life in the wild.

In Captivity:
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ From the moment an orca is taken into captivity, this free will and freedom of movement is virtually obliterated. From this moment onwards, humans will mastermind the captive orcaÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s life.
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Home is a bare and largely featureless concrete tank, minuscule compared to their natural ocean habitat.
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Artificially salinated and chlorinated water usually replace natural seawater. 
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Captives must learn to accept dead fish. 
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Blood-bonds are replaced by forced associations, with orcas from different pods and different oceans being routinely mixed and matched. 
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Calves are routinely moved from their mother at a very tender age. 
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ In 1999, at least four facilities keep a solitary orca, and Keiko is solitary in Iceland 
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Natural daily routines and social interactions are replaced by forced and highly artificial show routines. 
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Above all, the orca's quality of life is severely compromised.

From this (rather lengthy!) article: http://www.wdcs.org/submissions_bin/orcareport.pdf
A great read if you can find the time!


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## Tom

TerryO, the feeling is mutual. I can understand your frustration, but bear with me. The "animal rightist" comment was directed at Candy not you. Also, its not a "bash" against Candy. Anyone who is an animal rightist should not feel insulted for being called an animal rightist. She states her animal rightist leanings openly and clearly. I am a tortoise lover with a big nose. If some one called me a "big-nosed tortoise lover", I would smile and laugh, not feel insulted. I started the paragraph with "all due respect to Terryo" because you asked that we not compare the killer whales to our tortoises. I was acknowledging that you don't think these two things compare. Personally, I see no difference between Pio in your yard in totally "unnatural" surroundings (or my torts in my pens, for that matter) and these whales at Sea World.

Don't misunderstand this next part because I really do think you are respectable and a great person, but hiding behind "captive bred" is a total cop-out and does not absolve any of us from being responsible for these tortoises being taken out of the wild. The parents of yours (or the parents of your's parents) were removed from the wild for profit and our enjoyment. Many of them died along the way until we figured out how to best care for them. How many stunted and horribly pyramided examples do we see here on a daily basis? My tortoises included. Anyone who buys a captive bred tortoise might as well have been the one who snatched the founding stock out of the jungle. By buying one you have rewarded the wild collectors for doing their job. I'm not innocent either. The point is that we are all trying to do our best (and YOU have not only tried but succeeded tremendously!) and give our animals the best care and life that we possibly can. We all make mistakes due to ignorance and we all try to make up for it. Sea World is no different. In fact, I would hold them in much higher esteem than you or me because of all the education and conservation they do. We just keep our torts for our own enjoyment. I've done a few educational shows, but Sea World is responsible for educating millions upon millions of people about killer whales and other ocean life. They have also spent millions upon millions on conservation projects. Without Shamu being an ambassador for his species, those millions would not have been spent on preserving species and natural environments. With out Shamu all the millions that have been spent on cetacean research would not have been spent. Cetacean knowledge has advanced tremendously as a result of little kiddies wanting to see Shamu. Sea World is at the forefront of Oceanographic and cetacean knowledge BECAUSE they have a way to fund it. You know why I don't have "Tortoise World" and millions of dollars to fund tortoise research? Because I don't have a tortoise park that's open to the public with all the overhead and liabilities associated with such an endeavor. We should all be thanking Sea World for "exploiting" killer whales for millions of dollars. It has given them millions of dollars to do actual REAL beneficial work to help wild animals IN the wild. The animals rightists who decry Sea World have done far more harm than good. 

I get so incensed about animal rightists and their baloney because they want to shut down the very beneficial work that Sea World and many others do. They want to shut down my business and are succeeding to some degree. Their lies and distortions of the truth hurt people and do damage. They play upon people's emotions to bilk them out of money while euthanizing and otherwise hurting animals while they drive around in Mercedes and BMWs and live in million dollar homes. I have met some of them personally and they grin an evil grin when you bring up how those donations could have actually HELPED animals somewhere instead of buying them fancy cars and homes. The higher ups know what they are doing and ignorant people with good intentions play right into their hands.

I know that some people abhor any kind of disagreement, confrontation or "passionate" discussion, but I feel that "arguments" like this are very beneficial and useful. It helps each side to better understand the other and it helps fence sitters decide which way they would like to go. I do believe that mutual common courtesy is necessary for it to be constructive and name-calling or insults are detrimental to the goal of achieving better understanding.


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## terryo

OK...that was a great post Tom....thank you. I can understand where you are coming from, and do appreciate your point of view, and your opinion.


----------



## Tom

ChiKat said:


> I have no doubt in my mind that the trainers love these animals- that's not the issue here, and I don't think anyone is trying to imply that.
> They care for them as best as they possibly can _in captivity_...which is not ultimately what is best for them. The ocean is their natural habitat and it's where they belong.
> 
> In the Wild...
> Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Orcas live in large, closely-knit, highly complex social groups typically numbering 5 - 25 members.
> Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Members are related by blood and remain together for life.
> Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ The pod may travel as many as 160 km (100 miles) in a day, in a home range of maybe 800 - 1,500 km (500-900 miles).
> Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ They forage for live prey and socialise, rest and play as a cohesive group.
> Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Free will and freedom of movement characterise their existence.
> Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ They are supremely adapted over centuries to cope with the rigours of life in the wild.
> 
> In Captivity:
> Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ From the moment an orca is taken into captivity, this free will and freedom of movement is virtually obliterated. From this moment onwards, humans will mastermind the captive orcaÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s life.
> Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Home is a bare and largely featureless concrete tank, minuscule compared to their natural ocean habitat.
> Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Artificially salinated and chlorinated water usually replace natural seawater.
> Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Captives must learn to accept dead fish.
> Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Blood-bonds are replaced by forced associations, with orcas from different pods and different oceans being routinely mixed and matched.
> Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Calves are routinely moved from their mother at a very tender age.
> Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ In 1999, at least four facilities keep a solitary orca, and Keiko is solitary in Iceland
> Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Natural daily routines and social interactions are replaced by forced and highly artificial show routines.
> Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Above all, the orca's quality of life is severely compromised.
> 
> From this (rather lengthy!) article: http://www.wdcs.org/submissions_bin/orcareport.pdf
> A great read if you can find the time!



Katie, how do you think they know all that stuff about wild orcas? Who do you think paid for the expeditions and research to discover all of that? Regardless of who paid for it, who do you think actually went out and DID that research? I'll bet it was someone who absolutely loves and is fascinated by orcas. Where do you think they developed that fascination? Do you think they did a google search about killer whales and then decided to devote their life's work to them. Or do you think they saw one, in person, and fell in love with the majesty, beauty and gracefulness while staring in awe at a live animal?

Also, the points about what happens in the wild and captivity are ridiculously negatively slanted. Allow me to re-write them with the same ridiculous slant the other way. You'll see its ludicrous and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Orcas in captivity:

-From the moment an orca enters his new life at our state of the art multi-million dollar facility, he is free from the polluted water, constant desperate search for food, internal and external parasites the plague his wild counter parts, competition from bullying dominant animals and his every need and want is tended to by a staff of hundreds of dedicated, loving, devoted, professional caretakers.
-they get a clean, well filtered, constantly monitored, multi-million gallon pool with a full time staff devoted to maintaining perfect water quality.
-clean, perfectly balanced salt-water replaces the unfiltered, sometimes dangerously polluted ocean water that their wild counter parts must contend with.
-they are fed a well balanced, interesting, nutritious diet, that is constantly monitored and adjusted by a team of professional cetacean nutritionists. Any necessary supplements are tended to on a daily basis.
-they are blessed with the opportunity to free swim for hours a day, just like they do in the wild.
-they get to meet and interact with new friends and form life-long bonds. They routinely like their new friends so much that captive breeding is now a reality.
-unlike in the wild, if a new calf is neglected by its mother, it can be given tender loving care by a dedicated, loving, professional staff and successfully raised to adult hood. In the wild these poor calves would be eaten alive or slowly starve to death in an agonizing, prolonged way.
-as of 1999 four facilities have been forced into keeping solitary animals due to well-intentioned, but mis-informed people and countries passing all sorts of restrictive laws forbidding the sale and transport of these majestic animals. Pressure from animal rights group PREVENTS these facilities from being able to properly house their whales with other whales. If only they'd spend all that money to properly house and socialize these whales instead of ignorantly calling for them to be released into the oceans and their slow torturous death.
-each day the whales get hours of social interaction and they CHOOSE to participate in simulating natural behaviors on cue. They get get their complete daily food intake whether they participate or not, so we know that they enjoy these interactions with dedicated, loving, devoted, professional cetacean behaviorists. All interactions are reviewed and constantly scrutinized for ways to make life for enjoyable, fun and fulfilling for our whale ambassadors.
-above all the orcas live a wonderful life free of the multitude of dangers, parasites, strife, starvation, persecution an uncertainties of their wild counterparts. We are very glad to be able to offer them this enjoyable life style while allowing them to educate millions of people with their majesty and grace.

I could re-do the "in the wild" part too, but I think you get the point. Whoever wrote that has an obvious bias and wants you to feel and re-act the way you did. Now they want you to call up PETA and give them all your money so that these poor creatures won't have to "SUFFER" the "horrors" of captivity, bondage, abuse and slavery. I could do a google search and get the PETA donation hotline number for you...


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## Candy

Now if we can get back to the point of this thread it would be appreciated. I wanted people to see the video and wonder for themselves why this could be happening to these innocent whales. I want people to ask themselves really why they go to see these whales doing tricks and why humans are entertained by it. I want them to ask themselves is it worth it? Couldn't there be a better way to learn about them then this? I spent part of today reading about them and came across some interesting stuff if anyone is interested in reading it. I found a few experts and their opinions are written down by chance you want to read them and what they think about captive whales and what their everyday life is like and how long they live in the wild compared to captive. I think that you will find that these are people who have studied these whales for many years and I am going to a couple bio's so you can see for yourself there credentials. There's also opinions on animal behavior and what they think they go through in captivity compared to the wild. I only know what I read and what common sense tells me about Killer Whales being kept in captivity. From what I've read I cannot honestly say that we should continue this process of capturing them. I won't argue with facts as long as their substantiated so if anyone can post research on the side of captivity and how it benefits the whales please post it so I and all of the others who are interested here can read it. I would more they welcome the other side to this subject. I do not want hearsay or opinions that are not based on expert research as this would not help us make up our minds. Here are a few of the websites that I found information from today. I think there's even a video if anyone's interested.

http://www.oceanfutures.org/news/blog/death-captive-orca

http://www.oceanfutures.org/news/blog/statement-releasing-captive-orcas

http://www.pbs.org/kqed/oceanadventures/

http://video.pbs.org/video/1094847767

This is a very informative one

http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/article/22965

http://biotelemetry.ucdavis.edu/pages/bio_Giles.htm

http://faculty.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/faculty/bjmccowan/

http://www.montereybaywhalewatch.com/Features/WildKillerWhales1002.htm

Please take the time to research this issue. Thank you.


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## Candy

Sorry I posted the above and it didn't come through so I re-posted it and it came through.


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## Tom

Candy, all of the things you posted are all written by groups with the same bias and politics. Just like the above example, I can take whatever facts you give me and spin it however I want. Are you not aware that most "studies" are slanted to prove whatever the person was trying to prove in the first place. Any controversial subject will have opposing sides with "facts" to back up their POV. The funny thing is that sometimes each side will use the SAME facts and claim that it proves THEIR argument is the right one.

Bottom line is: You and lots of other people in the world don't think these whales should be in captivity. Me and lots of other people in the world think its great and there is tremendous benefit to the species and the people because of it. We won't ever agree and neither care what "facts" the other side presents. I know what I've seen with my own eyes and from real people who actually work with these animals on a daily basis, and you know what you've read on the internet and we aren't going to change each other's minds.

Here's what I ask for in any situation like this: If you don't agree with it, don't go there. But don't try to make everyone else live their lives by your beliefs. Same thing with any other controversial subject. Drugs, guns, abortion, politics, religion, etc...


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## Candy

This is from Tom's thread that didn't post:

Candy, all of the things you posted are all written by groups with the same bias and politics. Just like the above example, I can take whatever facts you give me and spin it however I want. Are you not aware that most "studies" are slanted to prove whatever the person was trying to prove in the first place. Any controversial subject will have opposing sides with "facts" to back up their POV. The funny thing is that sometimes each side will use the SAME facts and claim that it proves THEIR argument is the right one.

Bottom line is: You and lots of other people in the world don't think these whales should be in captivity. Me and lots of other people in the world think its great and there is tremendous benefit to the species and the people because of it. We won't ever agree and neither care what "facts" the other side presents. I know what I've seen with my own eyes and from real people who actually work with these animals on a daily basis, and you know what you've read on the internet and we aren't going to change each other's minds.

Here's what I ask for in any situation like this: If you don't agree with it, don't go there. But don't try to make everyone else live their lives by your beliefs. Same thing with any other controversial subject. Drugs, guns, abortion, politics, religion, etc... 


This is my response:


My response to you Tom is that you obviously didn't read any of the articles that I had posted. Bias is in everything that does not mean that the research or the information given is wrong. Do you think that you have no bias here? The only thing that I asked you to do is to post research or information to support your side of this issue. Giving me opinions and observations of the trainers and you going to see what they do in their jobs or talking to them about their everyday routines is not research (at least not documented research). I am not trying to convince anyone to do anything. I'm only providing information to be read and then they can make up their own minds as to whether they want to support this or not. Now you made a statement earlier about us not agreeing with the facts that we both are posting but you left something out didn't you? You didn't present any facts. Tom if you never look at the other side of something (I mean really look with an open mind) then how will you ever know the truth?  You have to be able to look at both side fairly to make an educated decision. I can't go on just what someone says is right there has to be something more to back it up, but again that's just me. 



Candy said:


> Sorry I posted the above and it didn't come through so I re-posted it and it came through.



This is from Tom's thread that didn't post:

Candy, all of the things you posted are all written by groups with the same bias and politics. Just like the above example, I can take whatever facts you give me and spin it however I want. Are you not aware that most "studies" are slanted to prove whatever the person was trying to prove in the first place. Any controversial subject will have opposing sides with "facts" to back up their POV. The funny thing is that sometimes each side will use the SAME facts and claim that it proves THEIR argument is the right one.

Bottom line is: You and lots of other people in the world don't think these whales should be in captivity. Me and lots of other people in the world think its great and there is tremendous benefit to the species and the people because of it. We won't ever agree and neither care what "facts" the other side presents. I know what I've seen with my own eyes and from real people who actually work with these animals on a daily basis, and you know what you've read on the internet and we aren't going to change each other's minds.

Here's what I ask for in any situation like this: If you don't agree with it, don't go there. But don't try to make everyone else live their lives by your beliefs. Same thing with any other controversial subject. Drugs, guns, abortion, politics, religion, etc... 


This is my response:


My response to you Tom is that you obviously didn't read any of the articles that I had posted. Bias is in everything that does not mean that the research or the information posted is wrong. Do you think that you have no bias here? The only thing that I asked you to do is to post research or information to support your side of this issue. Giving me opinions and observations of the trainers and you going to see what they do in their jobs or talking to them about their everyday routines is not research. I am not trying to convince anyone to do anything. I'm only providing information to be read and then they can make up their own minds as to whether they want to support this or not. Now you made a statement earlier about us not agreeing with the facts that we both are posting but you left something out didn't you? You didn't present any facts. Tom if you never look at the other side of something (I mean really look with an open mind) then how will you ever know the truth?  You have to be able to look at both side fairly to make an educated decision. I can't go on just what someone says is right there has to be something more to back it up, but again that's just me.


----------



## Candy

BethyB1022 said:


> I think there have been some good points raised on both sides on this issue.
> 
> Chad- I really appreciated your comments.
> 
> The first time I saw orcas in the wild it was such a humbling experience. I remember thinking that the whales looked so tiny. At first I thought they were all babies. Then I realized that I was used to seeing them in tanks. I wanted to share some photos of a pod of orcas that I saw around Seward, Alaska. I took them from a boat so they are not the best. Obviously the whales did not know they were supposed to pose for pictures!



I wanted to tell you Bethany those are absolutely awesome pictures that you took. Thanks for posting them.


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## Candy

Candy said:


> Sorry I posted the above and it didn't come through so I re-posted it and it came through.


----------



## ChiKat

What is beneficial to the whales being kept in captivity?


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## jdawn

Candy: Thank you for your post and your references~ It is compelling and well presented. 

Bethany: Fabulous photos!


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## Candy

jdawn said:


> Candy: Thank you for your post and your references~ It is compelling and well presented.
> 
> Bethany: Fabulous photos!



Thank you so much for that. I appreciate it.


----------



## Kalina

Tom said:


> Candy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well Tom it seems that your emotions are actually getting the best of you on this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's just ridiculous. This has nothing to do with emotions, except yours which are the basis for all of your points. As for your citations, someone earning a PHD does not make them all knowing and unbiased. For an example of incompetent advice from a doctor, look at some of the veterinary advice given for tortoises. Most vets are still telling people that torts pyramid due to excess protein in the diet.
> 
> I bring up the trainers and my friends because they work with these animals ALL DAY, EVERY DAY. Don't you think they know more than someone who read a book or went to college? They know these animals better than they know their own families sometimes. They sleep poolside whenever there is a problem or imminent birth.
> 
> What I'm saying is that through my experiences and friends, I know more about these animals than the average person, but I don't know enough about what it takes to make them "happy" or meet their needs to be making the judgement calls and blanket assertions that you are making. You know even less than me.
> 
> And with all due respect to TerryO, all of our torts have huge natural ranges in the wild. You think your 12" tort has enough room in your back yard? He'd be cramped in a 10 acre pen compared to the wild. I don't see where the disconnect is between YOUR captive wild animals and Sea World's captive wild animals is. If you say that some were wild caught, well so were some of yours and their parents. It is completely hypocritical to point the finger at Sea World for housing captive animals that you decided, based on unfounded emotion, shouldn't be captive, while you have an assortment of captive animals for your own entertainment in your own back yard! If you think the rank and file at Sea World and similar parks is in it for the money, then you are ridiculously ignorant. They get paid squat and have terrible benefits. This is a primary reason that I decided not to throw fish and blow a whistle for a living. I love the water. I love training. And I love cetaceans. But I didn't want to live a life of poverty, so I chose to work elsewhere. Those people do it out of passion and love for the animals. I think its terrible that you would take away their meager lively-hood, their reason for living, and a tremendous educational opportunity for the general public, because you have decided to have a hypocritical animal rightist slant.
> 
> Remember, the reason we are all here on this forum is because we all have captive wild animals in our own homes. There is no difference in your CDT or redfoots and my sulcatas and leopards and Sea World's Killer Whales. Same concept, same difference. You and me selfishly keep ours hidden away in our backyards while at least Sea World, the other parks and the zoos are taking terrific steps toward educating the public and conservation for these animals in the wild. There is a reason why captive animals are called "ambassadors" for their species.
> 
> 
> 
> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The role of captive wild animals in our society is awkward. We have done it for about as far back as recorded history goes, and it has become increasingly controversial. We used to do it to show off our dominion over animals, our wealth, our hunting prowness, or other forms of ego and pride. Then, it became a business- what cool things can we show that will bring you and your money to us?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Mark you make some good points. But this isn't one of them. You speculate on the whole world's reasons for keeping captive animals and I disagree. Both now and then, I think it stems more from fascination, admiration and awe, than the factors you mentioned. I didn't want a turtle at 7 years old to bring in money or have dominion over anything. I wanted it because I though it was really cool and neat. I loved my turtle, cried when he got sick and adored my time in the yard with him watching him explore.
Click to expand...





Tom: There is no doubt in my mind that all the trainers who work with these majestic animals love what they do, they all love the whales and have somewhat a good idea on their species. Saying that, to work at SeaWorld as a trainer doesn't actually require a college degree in Marine Biology or infact any degree at all. As long as you have a love for the animals, commitment, be a strong swimmer and a good public speaker, you're in with a good shot of working there.
I've worked with animals all my life (including wildlife) and I could apply for a job there. Nobody here is suggesting that the trainers are not dedicated to their jobs, they certainly are or they wouldn't do it, the pay isn't that great!!
But back on topic: Regarding your previous statements on your posts, you simply cannot make the statement that people don't know what they're talking about, just because you don't agree with them. 
It is fact that Killer Whales die prematurely in captivity!!
It is fact that they suffer immense stress levels!!
It is now fact that there's nothing more for us to learn about the species using captive whales!! (This kinda blows the guise of education out of the window).
Have your trainer friends told you about the wording and terms they must use when talking to the public?
Here's a couple of examples:

They cannot say whether an animal has been "CAPTURED" from the wild! SW employees says, the animal has been "COLLECTED"!!

If the public asks about the death of an animal, SW employees have to respond with "I DON'T KNOW"!!

The "tricks" the whales perform to the cheers of the public, SW employee would call them "BEHAVIORS"!! (I know, laughable right?") Because a 9000 pound Killer Whale break dancing on a ledge is totally "normal" behavior right?

Here's a good one "POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT"!! Ignoring bad behavior and rewarding good behavior!!
Fact: In the eyes of the animal it's "FOOD DEPRIVATION", if the animal doesn't do what it's told, the whistle doesn't get blown and he doesn't get the fish!! Could this also be perceived as "FORCE"? These animals are NOT dogs!!

Now, lets take a closer look at the top of the line dental care the whales receive... SeaWorld claim their whales receive the best in dental care, what they really mean is: We have to drill our whales teeth with a Dremel tool WITHOUT the use of Anesthetic, down to the pulp because of the severe tooth decay they have due to being in captivity. Also, when the whales are bored or have behavior problems, they munch on the gates, breaking their teeth (there is photographs on The Orca Project website if you would take the time to look). While you're there, you may want to take a look at the lonely life of Tilikum, 20 hours of video footage of him being isolated, infact you may see your trainer friends on it, but don't blink or you'll miss them, as they only spent a total of 7 minutes with him. Didn't you not mention they spend 24/7 with the whales??? That video may just change your opinion on that.

I would also like to add this, written by a former senior seaworld trainer (maybe you know him Tom?) You can find it on the captivity page of Orca Network website.

Jeff Ventre, former senior trainer at SeaWorld in Orlando checks off the signs that captive orcas endure pain and hardship.

1. orca tooth decay and breakage (on steel gates)

2. retinal UV-damage from looking up at the sun (unclear impact)

3. forced social reorganization (wild orcas live in culturally distinct groups that stay together for life) leading to aggression and social strife in captivity

4. increased mortality and morbidity (decreased lifespan)

5. death of 4 humans from captive orcas

6. crippling of John Sillick (crushed), SW San Diego

7. death of Kanduke (1990) from possible mosquito (vector) transmitted viral encephalopathy (only possible from long hours of surface floating)

8. overuse of Tagamet (cimetidine) to decrease ulcers (from stress associated with captivity)

9. overuse of antibiotics leading to opportunistic (fungal) infections

10. collapsed dorsal fins from long hours of surface resting (boredom)

11. degrading and regular manual stimulation of Tilikum to extract sperm

12. the relative social isolation of Tilikum leading to pathological behaviors, including the most recent event

13. exploitation of trainers, who are injured, killed, and grossly underpaid 14. Confinement: Most of the Shamu Stadium pools are not as deep as Tilikum is long

Orcinus orca has suffered much to fulfill the whims of human entertainment. Learning how self-aware and intelligent they are is precisely why their confinement needs to end. LetÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s evolve.




BethyB1022 said:


> I think there have been some good points raised on both sides on this issue.
> 
> Chad- I really appreciated your comments.
> 
> The first time I saw orcas in the wild it was such a humbling experience. I remember thinking that the whales looked so tiny. At first I thought they were all babies. Then I realized that I was used to seeing them in tanks. I wanted to share some photos of a pod of orcas that I saw around Seward, Alaska. I took them from a boat so they are not the best. Obviously the whales did not know they were supposed to pose for pictures!



Great photos!!!!!! This is how we should see them. Thanks for sharing : )


----------



## Candy

Kalina thank you for your post on my thread and giving us all of this new information and new website for people to view if they would like to know the truth about Sea World and the Killer Whales that they keep in captivity. I was very impressed at your information. I can only hope that others read the information given so they can make an educated decision on whether or not they want to support such an entertainment park such as this one. I didn't realize all the other complications of keeping such animals. My 11 year old son and I watched one of the videos last night. It's seems Sea World was not exactly up front on what was happening with the whales the day that the 40 year old trainer was killed. I was actually quite surprised when I watched it.


----------



## ChiKat

Kalina- brilliant post. You are very knowledgable and I learned a lot from your post.

Candy- what video did you watch?


----------



## Kalina

ChiKat said:


> Kalina- brilliant post. You are very knowledgable and I learned a lot from your post.
> 
> Candy- what video did you watch?



Thank you so much for your kind words : )
It's nice for people to think outside the box instead of what the corperate business's what you to think.
When I see people write supportive comments regarding the captive industry, it just frustrates me no end that they can't see past the Dolphins smile!
Here's some more information from another perspective, from http://www.elephantjournal.com/2010/03/the-cove-star-ric-obarry-on-seaworld-gary-smith/

In the wild, orcas commonly swim up to 100 miles a day and stay with their family pods all their lives. Tilikum was stolen from his mother at two years old in Iceland and sold into slavery, first in Canada, where he killed his first victim, then at SeaWorld in Orlando.

And so for 25 years, Tilikum has been swimming in circles, in a space that is said to be the equivalent of keeping a human being confined in a bathtub. He has lived a lonely, stressful, and mentally debilitating life. ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s no wonder he has snapped and killed three humans.

OÃ¢â‚¬â„¢Barry explained the horrors of living in captivity for whales and dolphins.

Ã¢â‚¬Å“Their primary sense is sonar sound. Ours is light. We are visually oriented. But they live in a world of sound.Ã¢â‚¬Â Small pools cause sensory deprivation, in which dolphins like Tilikum cannot make much use of echolocation living in captivity. Killer whales in captivity often develop pathologies, such as the dorsal fin collapse seen in 60 to 90 percent of captive males.

Ã¢â‚¬Å“Orcas are the most social animal on the planet, even more so than us,Ã¢â‚¬Â said OÃ¢â‚¬â„¢Barry. Ã¢â‚¬Å“Males will stay with their mothers their entire lives. When we capture an animal like Tilikum, we take him away from the two most important things of his life; the world of sound and family. We put them in a concrete box and expect him to stay mentally healthy. It simply doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t work.Ã¢â‚¬Â

That is, it doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t work for the animals. It works very well for the corporations who profit from them. There is a lot of money to be made off of the exploitation of dolphins and whales. SeaWorld alone, which owns 20 of the worldÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s 42 captive orcas, made $1.4 billion in profit last year. It would be impossible to calculate the money taken in by the many amusement parks, sea aquariums, and Ã¢â‚¬Å“swim with dolphinÃ¢â‚¬Â attractions around the world, all of which enslave and victimize animals.

In addition to ticket sales and merchandising, SeaWorld also makes millions of dollars force-breeding animals and selling their babies to aquariums around the world. Rest assured SeaWorld wonÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t euthanize nor send Tilikum to a sanctuary, because as a breeder, heÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s worth millions of dollars. Tilikum has reportedly sired 17 calves, although some have not survived. Those that did survive become part of the system of exploitation for profit.

Their breeding programs are yet another way for them to capitalize on animals. OÃ¢â‚¬â„¢Barry explains that captive-bred animals donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t fare any better at SeaWorld or elsewhere.

Ã¢â‚¬Å“It doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t matter if they were born in captivity or captured from the wild; the stress is exactly the same. Their behavior is radically altered, and you canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t keep them mentally healthy. As for research, the dolphins at SeaWorld donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t represent real dolphins any more than Mickey Mouse represents a real mouse.Ã¢â‚¬Â

SeaWorldÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s PR machine claims that SeaWorld supports wildlife conservation, research, education, and has rescued thousands of stranded and sick animals. They donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t mention that since 1986, 22 killer whales have died at SeaWorld, according to the Marine Mammal Inventory Report.

Indeed many people take their children to these parks thinking itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s an eye-opening educational opportunity. OÃ¢â‚¬â„¢Barry has a different take, based on his years of experience fighting sea mammal hunting and capture in Japan.

Ã¢â‚¬Å“SeaWorld claims that if we display the dolphins, people will be sensitized to them, and then theyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll be there for the dolphins. But look at Japan to see the smoking gun. The country of Japan is the size of the state of California. There are fifty dolphinariums in Japan, yet the largest slaughter of dolphins in the world is happening in Japan. No one from the dolphinariums, or their 100 million customers a year, are in Taiji trying to stop the dolphin slaughter. There is no connection between dolphin shows and conservation. ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s a big lie.Ã¢â‚¬Â

The sad lesson Tilikum teaches us is the only interest SeaWorld has in dolphins and whales is profit. Thus the only way they can be stopped is if people like us stop buying tickets. Marine amusement parks are reprehensible enterprises, capturing and breeding animals for entertainment slavery, and these enterprises only survive through our willingness to participate in them. As long as consumers continue to support them, they will continue these despicable practices, practices that put humans at risk.

OÃ¢â‚¬â„¢Barry knows the government isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t going to come to the aid of dolphins and whales. Ã¢â‚¬Å“This is a case of supply and demand, like anything else. We have to go to the consumers, the people buying tickets. The key is to go after the demand side, not the supply side.Ã¢â‚¬Â

Yet marine parks arenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t the only culprits here. All enterprises that use animals are unethical. There is absolutely no difference between marine parks, zoos, horse tracks, dog fighting rings, circuses and any other animal enterprise, all of which exploit animals for profit.

Animals all desire to be free, to be with their families and to fulfill their natural purpose. When we rip them away from their homes and their purpose, we not only cause them suffering and pain, but we cause ourselves suffering and pain as well. There are simply no good ethical reasons to use animals for entertainment, scientific research, clothing, or food. These enterprises only survive by our willingness to participate in their evil or by doing nothing.

Ã¢â‚¬Å“Whether we are going out to capture slaves, or weÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re breeding them on the plantation, it is still unethical,Ã¢â‚¬Â said OÃ¢â‚¬â„¢Barry.

Here is some links for those who are interested in learning more on this issue:

http://theorcaproject.wordpress.com/

http://orcanetwork.org/

My personal favorite http://miamiseaprison.com/

http://www.orcahome.de/incidents.htm

http://www.slavetoentertainment.com/help-lolita.htm

http://www.savelolita.com/

http://www.hsi.org/search/search.jsp?query=marine+mammals


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## terryo

Wow! What a wonderful post, Kalina. And welcome to the forum.


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## Tom

Kalina, both your posts are a bunch of slanted animal rightist propaganda. You are preaching to your choir and I've already demonstrated how to spin info in the way someone wants it spun. I don't deny that captive animals experience problems. Just look at how many health issues and deaths we have here on the tortoise forum. What I'm saying is that the benefit outweighs the cost. You and your friends clearly don't agree. No amount of typed words will change either of our minds. It is a difference of opinion, nothing more.

Further, you chose a very poor way to join a forum dedicated to the care and well-being of captive wild animals. When you have some tortoise info to share, then I'll happily welcome you to the forum.


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## Isa

Kalina, Welcome to the forum and THANK YOU for your posts. They are amazing and full of infos. Thanks for sharing it with us


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## dmmj

so where do we draw the line? so more sea world? no more zoos? no more pets?


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## DeanS

My thoughts for years have circled around supplying zoos and aquariums with captive born specimens...don't pillage the wilds anymore. There are enough animals in captivity to populate the world's zoos over and over. My biggest problems have always been the propagation of orcas and elephants. Right now, every African elephant born in a zoo is the product of one bull...Bulwagi, of Disney's Animal Kingdom. What's gonna happen down the road, say 20 years, when the SSPs fall apart! Are we going to continue to go to Africa to select elephants that have been targeted for culling? How long can that last? I haven't kept up with the plight of the orca (as I did throughout the 80s)...so I can't really delve much into that. But, I think of the Aquarium of the Pacific...no orcas...no belugas...no pilot whales and I consider it far more enjoyable to frequent them than Sea World...which has become NOTHING more than an amusement park (with animals).


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## ChiKat

Tom said:


> What I'm saying is that the benefit outweighs the cost.



What are the benefits to keeping these animals in captivity?


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## myrtle651

Is this Wild Kingdom? Or a website on Torts?


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## Laura

so where do we draw the line? so more sea world? no more zoos? no more pets? 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats What PETA would love.. 
We need to find a Happy Middle.. I dont know if there is one, since there are so many sides.. There are far left and far right... and you cant make everyone happy..


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## Kalina

DeanS said:


> My thoughts for years have circled around supplying zoos and aquariums with captive born specimens...don't pillage the wilds anymore. There are enough animals in captivity to populate the world's zoos over and over. My biggest problems have always been the propagation of orcas and elephants. Right now, every African elephant born in a zoo is the product of one bull...Bulwagi, of Disney's Animal Kingdom. What's gonna happen down the road, say 20 years, when the SSPs fall apart! Are we going to continue to go to Africa to select elephants that have been targeted for culling? How long can that last? I haven't kept up with the plight of the orca (as I did throughout the 80s)...so I can't really delve much into that. But, I think of the Aquarium of the Pacific...no orcas...no belugas...no pilot whales and I consider it far more enjoyable to frequent them than Sea World...which has become NOTHING more than an amusement park (with animals).



Good post Dean... It is definately a concern (the in house breeding)

Tom - I have wrote a few posts on this thread outlining the negative facts on captive Orcas. I wish you could just present half the facts that I have that would substantiate your stance on being Pro-captivity.
Give me at least 5 to 10 good reasons for keeping whales in captivity (and puhleeeze don't use education or entertainment)



ChiKat said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I'm saying is that the benefit outweighs the cost.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are the benefits to keeping these animals in captivity?
Click to expand...


That's what question I'm waiting for Tom to answer, even if he could come up with two, that would be an achievement.

And Tom, you can talk about spinning facts all you want, facts are facts... Premature death in these Marine Mammals is "really" happening in captivity. If anyone is trying to spin the truth, it's you Tom.
I'll sit and wait for your response on these so called "benefits"!!


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## Kristina

Just a reminder to everyone to keep things cordial. Not saying anyone has crossed that boundary yet, but this topic is bringing some pretty strong responses


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## DeanS

kyryah said:


> Just a reminder to everyone to keep things cordial. Not saying anyone has crossed that boundary yet, but this topic is bringing some pretty strong responses



Couldn't agree more!


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## jdawn

Kalina,
Thanks for your voice and your insight. Blessings! Jenny


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## Candy

Tom said:


> Kalina, both your posts are a bunch of slanted animal rightist propaganda. You are preaching to your choir and I've already demonstrated how to spin info in the way someone wants it spun. I don't deny that captive animals experience problems. Just look at how many health issues and deaths we have here on the tortoise forum. What I'm saying is that the benefit outweighs the cost. You and your friends clearly don't agree. No amount of typed words will change either of our minds. It is a difference of opinion, nothing more.
> 
> Further, you chose a very poor way to join a forum dedicated to the care and well-being of captive wild animals. When you have some tortoise info to share, then I'll happily welcome you to the forum.



Gee Tom I didn't realize there's a special way of joining this forum especially if someone is posting to an "Off Topic Chit Chat", but thanks for that information. Still no research on the side of Captivity that doesn't come from "Sea World" or their employees I see. You know that what you're doing is called projection right? You know your comments just don't hold up about two sides to a story. The other day as I was looking up veal and found two sides to this exploitation of these animals. Can you imagine that, two sides? There are always two sides to every story but that doesn't mean that you don't use common sense to figure it out after you read it. Kalina and I have given so much research and from experts in the field of Killer Whales but you still choose to insult and turn a blind eye to it all. I am sorry that you couldn't take the time to read some of it because you might just have learned something from it. 




ChiKat said:


> Kalina- brilliant post. You are very knowledgable and I learned a lot from your post.
> 
> Candy- what video did you watch?



Katy here is the video. You'll notice what I was talking about comes right after the SPCA person is interviewed.

http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/stories/8106471/natural-born-killers

And this is the saddest of video's where they taped Lolita's pod and brought it for her to listen to. It made me cry as I kind of think they remember like Elephants do.

http://www.orcanetwork.org/captivity/captivity.html




DeanS said:


> My thoughts for years have circled around supplying zoos and aquariums with captive born specimens...don't pillage the wilds anymore. There are enough animals in captivity to populate the world's zoos over and over. My biggest problems have always been the propagation of orcas and elephants. Right now, every African elephant born in a zoo is the product of one bull...Bulwagi, of Disney's Animal Kingdom. What's gonna happen down the road, say 20 years, when the SSPs fall apart! Are we going to continue to go to Africa to select elephants that have been targeted for culling? How long can that last? I haven't kept up with the plight of the orca (as I did throughout the 80s)...so I can't really delve much into that. But, I think of the Aquarium of the Pacific...no orcas...no belugas...no pilot whales and I consider it far more enjoyable to frequent them than Sea World...which has become NOTHING more than an amusement park (with animals).



I thought this was a very informative post. Thanks Dean.  Don't even get me started on the elephants.  



myrtle651 said:


> Is this Wild Kingdom? Or a website on Torts?



This is a "Off Topic Chit Chat" thread so if you have something to contribute to this conversion then go ahead and post it.


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## ChiKat

I am not good with videos  They make me so sad!
I did watch the first 30 seconds or so of the Lolita one, but it broke my heart.


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## terryo

The only thing sadder than watching these video's is seeing an elephant with a chain on his leg. Very sad Candy.


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## Kalina

Candy said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kalina, both your posts are a bunch of slanted animal rightist propaganda. You are preaching to your choir and I've already demonstrated how to spin info in the way someone wants it spun. I don't deny that captive animals experience problems. Just look at how many health issues and deaths we have here on the tortoise forum. What I'm saying is that the benefit outweighs the cost. You and your friends clearly don't agree. No amount of typed words will change either of our minds. It is a difference of opinion, nothing more.
> 
> Further, you chose a very poor way to join a forum dedicated to the care and well-being of captive wild animals. When you have some tortoise info to share, then I'll happily welcome you to the forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gee Tom I didn't realize there's a special way of joining this forum especially if someone is posting to an "Off Topic Chit Chat", but thanks for that information. Still no research on the side of Captivity that doesn't come from "Sea World" or their employees I see. You know that what you're doing is called projection right? You know your comments just don't hold up about two sides to a story. The other day as I was looking up veal and found two sides to this exploitation of these animals. Can you imagine that, two sides? There are always two sides to every story but that doesn't mean that you don't use common sense to figure it out after you read it. Kalina and I have given so much research and from experts in the field of Killer Whales but you still choose to insult and turn a blind eye to it all. I am sorry that you couldn't take the time to read some of it because you might just have learned something from it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChiKat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kalina- brilliant post. You are very knowledgable and I learned a lot from your post.
> 
> Candy- what video did you watch?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Katy here is the video. You'll notice what I was talking about comes right after the SPCA person is interviewed.
> 
> http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/stories/8106471/natural-born-killers
> 
> And this is the saddest of video's where they taped Lolita's pod and brought it for her to listen to. It made me cry as I kind of think they remember like Elephants do.
> 
> http://www.orcanetwork.org/captivity/captivity.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DeanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> My thoughts for years have circled around supplying zoos and aquariums with captive born specimens...don't pillage the wilds anymore. There are enough animals in captivity to populate the world's zoos over and over. My biggest problems have always been the propagation of orcas and elephants. Right now, every African elephant born in a zoo is the product of one bull...Bulwagi, of Disney's Animal Kingdom. What's gonna happen down the road, say 20 years, when the SSPs fall apart! Are we going to continue to go to Africa to select elephants that have been targeted for culling? How long can that last? I haven't kept up with the plight of the orca (as I did throughout the 80s)...so I can't really delve much into that. But, I think of the Aquarium of the Pacific...no orcas...no belugas...no pilot whales and I consider it far more enjoyable to frequent them than Sea World...which has become NOTHING more than an amusement park (with animals).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I thought this was a very informative post. Thanks Dean.  Don't even get me started on the elephants.
> 
> 
> 
> myrtle651 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this Wild Kingdom? Or a website on Torts?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is a "Off Topic Chit Chat" thread so if you have something to contribute to this conversion then go ahead and post it.
Click to expand...





Tom: I agree, we do have a difference in opinion, wouldn't the world be boring if we all agreed on everything?
I understand that you are aware of the health problems associated with captive animals and I agree 100%. What I'm confused about is your stance when you write "the benefits outweigh the cost"? I would love for you to elaborate on that. I would like to make it clear that I am not a PETA supporter and never have been, I know where to draw the line. When I speak up for animals, I speak looking at it from the animals point of view, not the humans. With regards to Killer Whales/Dolphins in captivity, I just find it highly unethical. YES, people will go and see them in aquariums and be in awe of their sheer size, but these animals belong in the ocean period.
With regards to Torts, I could ask you a few questions about them, but I don't need to because I don't have one. I do however have an Aquatic Turtle that I've had for a little over 3 years. I wouldn't of had him but he was seized from a home that was breeding all kinds of animals and I ended up with him because nobody wanted him and he came from warmer climates than where I live. All my pets have a story to tell and have come from abusive situations and deemed unadoptable, one of my dogs was being trained in dogfighting at 15 weeks old, can you believe that?

What I'm trying to say is, sometimes you have to do what is right by the animal and not what is right for the humans. I don't want to change your mind on captivity, like you say "I'm preaching to the choir"... But what you have to realize is, there's always two sides to every debate and every action and it takes an open mind to see both sides of the coin, if i can understand why you enjoy Orca's in captivity, then knowing the risks of captivity, you should understand my opinions of being against it.
With regards to my manner of joining this forum - I'm pleasantly surprised by all the messages I've received welcoming me and thanking me for standing up with what I believe in. I feel very welcomed and if I ever end up with a Tort, I'll certainly let you know.


----------



## Angi

I don't know much about Orca so I have no coment on them. I have seen dolphins at Sea World and in the wild. I have lived in San Diego most of my life. After my visit to Hawaii this summer and a snorkling tour where we saw and learned a bit about dolphins I find it hard to imagine they could be happy at Sea World. I don't like crowds, so I don't care for Sea World.


----------



## Kalina

Angi said:


> I don't know much about Orca so I have no coment on them. I have seen dolphins at Sea World and in the wild. I have lived in San Diego most of my life. After my visit to Hawaii this summer and a snorkling tour where we saw and learned a bit about dolphins I find it hard to imagine they could be happy at Sea World. I don't like crowds, so I don't care for Sea World.



I bet you had an awesome time in Hawaii... There's a place in Western Australia "Monkey Mia" where researchers now go to study wild Dolphins, the Dolphins are ever so cooperative and seem to enjoy the human interaction, I guess its because it's on their terms. I'd love to go there and see them...


----------



## Isa

So sad and so cruel videos . I really do not get why someone would be ok with all that. Yes we have tortoises in captivity but trust me, I never asked Hermy to walk on 2 legs or to dance!
Thanks Candy for starting this thread.


----------



## ChiKat

Angi said:


> After my visit to Hawaii this summer and a snorkling tour where we saw and learned a bit about dolphins I find it hard to imagine they could be happy at Sea World. I don't like crowds, so I don't care for Sea World.



I went on a "whale-watch" in Hawaii several years ago, I'll have to see if I can find pictures.


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## Angi

They took us to an area where dolphins were swiming and let us snorkle. I skipped that dive, but my husband loved it. I did the reef and the Sea Turtle dive. Anyway what amazed me about dolphins is how they move as a team. They never stop swimming. They only let half their brain sleep at a time, so they swim in a formation so the outer dolphin has the eye facing out open and the one facing in closed. Crazy huh? Well I can't see them doing that in captivity. They would need a lot of space.


----------



## Candy

ChiKat said:


> Angi said:
> 
> 
> 
> After my visit to Hawaii this summer and a snorkling tour where we saw and learned a bit about dolphins I find it hard to imagine they could be happy at Sea World. I don't like crowds, so I don't care for Sea World.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I went on a "whale-watch" in Hawaii several years ago, I'll have to see if I can find pictures.
Click to expand...






Angi said:


> I don't know much about Orca so I have no coment on them. I have seen dolphins at Sea World and in the wild. I have lived in San Diego most of my life. After my visit to Hawaii this summer and a snorkling tour where we saw and learned a bit about dolphins I find it hard to imagine they could be happy at Sea World. I don't like crowds, so I don't care for Sea World.



It's experiences like these that show us the way they really live.


----------



## Candy

I so appreciate all of the info that you guys are giving here. I have been watching other videos that I've found recently but like Terry and Isa said it's hard to watch. I would love to see your pictures from Hawaii if you can post them.  Now I'm going to see if this posts since I know Angi tried to post and it never showed up on here.  I pm'd Josh about it.


----------



## Candy

ChiKat said:


> Angi said:
> 
> 
> 
> After my visit to Hawaii this summer and a snorkling tour where we saw and learned a bit about dolphins I find it hard to imagine they could be happy at Sea World. I don't like crowds, so I don't care for Sea World.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I went on a "whale-watch" in Hawaii several years ago, I'll have to see if I can find pictures.
Click to expand...


I would love to see the pictures. Please post them.  I can't figure it out. Last night nobody's post would come through, but tonight I posted and all of them came through.


----------



## Kristina

Candy, do you mean that you can't see other people's new posts? That sounds like a problem with your service or computer, and not the forum. If it was the forum then everybody or almost everybody would be having the same problem. Try cleaning the cookies on your computer.


----------



## ChiKat

I couldn't see the new posts either until just now. It would say on the main page that the last post was from Candy, but her post wouldn't show up when I actually clicked on this thread.

Now all of them are showing up!


----------



## Kalina

Angi said:


> They took us to an area where dolphins were swiming and let us snorkle. I skipped that dive, but my husband loved it. I did the reef and the Sea Turtle dive. Anyway what amazed me about dolphins is how they move as a team. They never stop swimming. They only let half their brain sleep at a time, so they swim in a formation so the outer dolphin has the eye facing out open and the one facing in closed. Crazy huh? Well I can't see them doing that in captivity. They would need a lot of space.



You are exactly right, they close part of their brain down, stay together in a line and swim slowly at the surface when sleeping. They have to remain somewhat aware as they're conscious breathers, they don't breath automatically like us, they have to think about it. Killer Whales do the exact same thing too. So when you see pictures of Killer Whales in captivity just staying still on the surface of the pool, usually the aquarium staff will tell you they're resting, but this isn't the way they rest naturally.


----------



## ChiKat

Candy- I asked my mom for pictures from our whale watch in Hawaii, but this was before we had good digital cameras, so there is a black speck in every picture that is supposedly part of a whale  In one picture I can make out a tail fin but you practically need a magnifying glass 

I found pictures and a brochure from when we went to the Maui Ocean Center. They had life-sized MODELS of whales. In the brochure they state, "The animals in our care are fed according to their needs, and there are no shows. To enhance your experience, trained Ocean Naturalists share their insights through presentations at the Living Reef, Turtle Lagoon, Stingray Cove, Discovery Pool, and the Open Ocean."
Sounds a lot more ethical than Sea World, IMO 

And from their website FAQ section:
Q. Do you have whales or dolphins at the aquarium?
A. At this time, it is illegal to have captive marine mammals in Maui County. If you wish to see whales or dolphins, there are several boat companies that offer such excursions, and you can see the animals in their natural environment.

Still waiting to hear about any benefits of keeping orcas in captivity...

eta: Their sea turtles are also part of a hatch-and-release program...pretty cool! Off-topic, I know


----------



## Candy

kyryah said:


> Candy, do you mean that you can't see other people's new posts? That sounds like a problem with your service or computer, and not the forum. If it was the forum then everybody or almost everybody would be having the same problem. Try cleaning the cookies on your computer.



No Kristina it's not my computer because I've seen many post about having the same problem around the same time as they were also receiving the "Error Message". Here's the one that Yvonne posted not to long ago. Someone also posted not too long ago that if they waited a day or so and tried to post on it again that all of them would pop up at the same time. Josh so far hasn't gotten back to me so I have no opinion from him on the problem. Anyway here's Yvonne's post.

emysemys Offline
old timer
*********
Posts: 10,504
Joined: Jan 2008
Reputation: 40
RE: Incandescent Black Light
No this is really starting to bug me. I typed out this great big long post in response to Madkins' comment and when I hit "post reply" it came back a blank screen saying "done." And my post is gone into the nether world! Argh-h-h-h!!!

What I said was:

Please always continue to be a pest. That's how we all learn and maybe change our way of thinking.

I've not noticed any of my tortoises being restless during the night or seeming stressed at having a light on all night (black light). But I'll try to work on somehow covering the light to shade it, yet not block the heat.

How do you feel about using a red light instead of the black one? Most zoos use red at night.
Yvonne G.


----------



## Candy

That's o.k. Katie although I would have loved to see the photos I understand. I didn't know how they swam so that is very interesting to me. I saw a short video of Tillikum where they said that he was resting but it looked funny to me. He was straight up and down. So they work together in a team that's wonderful! Kalina had given me a site where they are trying to have Lolita freed to the wild. I read it and they know where her pod is so they think that unlike Keiko "Free Willy" it would be more likely that she would be o.k. It would take a while before they could attempt it, but think that it would benefit science so much if they would let her go. They could learn so much more then they know now about them. So I myself think this is a good venture and am willing to join along in the fight to free Lolita.


----------



## Kalina

Candy said:


> That's o.k. Katie although I would have loved to see the photos I understand. I didn't know how they swam so that is very interesting to me. I saw a short video of Tillikum where they said that he was resting but it looked funny to me. He was straight up and down. So they work together in a team that's wonderful! Kalina had given me a site where they are trying to have Lolita freed to the wild. I read it and they know where her pod is so they think that unlike Keiko "Free Willy" it would be more likely that she would be o.k. It would take a while before they could attempt it, but think that it would benefit science so much if they would let her go. They could learn so much more then they know now about them. So I myself think this is a good venture and am willing to join along in the fight to free Lolita.



Yes, Lolita's Mom is still alive and well and living 6 months of the year in Puget Sound WA. Her family is there, she has a younger sister now who's around the age of 10. They did recordings of her family communicating between one another and took those recording to Lolita for her to listen to, she reacted to the sounds and tried to get closer to the tape recorder. She would be an excellent candidate for rehabilitation and release, can you just imagine what a success story that would be?

With regards to keiko (Free Willy)... If a remember correctly, he spent two years in rehabilitation in a natural sea pen, then spent 5 years completely free. The sad thing about Keiko was, they couldn't locate his family, so he didn't take a place in any pod after release. His health was the best it had ever been and he had learned how to forage and eat for himself. Unfortunately, he died of Pneumonia (which is a common illness in Killer Whales)... Some people look badly upon Keiko's release because of the outcome, personally I consider it a huge success, he spent the last 7 years of his life happy and free. His release has paved the way for other Killer Whales in captivity to be given the same opportunities as he had. Lolita would do great, she'd be with her family once again.


----------



## Marty333

I live in Orlando and I went to the Seaworld Killer whale show like a month before the trainer was killed I dont think they should be keeping this creatures just to earn money. Also my neighbor use to work at seaworld and quit because they treated their animals poorly.


----------



## Kalina

Marty333 said:


> I live in Orlando and I went to the Seaworld Killer whale show like a month before the trainer was killed I dont think they should be keeping this creatures just to earn money. Also my neighbor use to work at seaworld and quit because they treated their animals poorly.



I agree Marty, some animals just aren't mean't to be caged. What did your neighbor do as a job at SW? There's been quite a few ex employees who have come forward with similiar stories, it's very sad. I also heard recently that the senior Killer Whale Trainer Laura Surovik has quit the Shamu Stadium and gone to work with the Dolphins instead. There's conflicting reasons why she changed jobs, some say because of the incident involving Tilikum and the trainer Dawn Brancheau, some say she changed just before that happened... I just found it weird when I read it, as she loved working with the whales, it was her dream.


----------



## Marty333

She worked with the dolphins but switched to discovery cove because of the bad care of all the animals. Also there are no enrichments in their captivity at all it is only a big bucket of water!


----------



## Yvonne G

Candy said:


> Gee Tom I didn't realize there's a special way of joining this forum especially if someone is posting to an "Off Topic Chit Chat",



I think what Tom was referring to was it would have been nice if Kalina had made an introduction before jumping in with both feet into a heated debate, so that we could understand a little better her qualifications.


----------



## Kalina

emysemys said:


> Candy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gee Tom I didn't realize there's a special way of joining this forum especially if someone is posting to an "Off Topic Chit Chat",
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think what Tom was referring to was it would have been nice if Kalina had made an introduction before jumping in with both feet into a heated debate, so that we could understand a little better her qualifications.
Click to expand...


Huh?
I didn't realize I had to make an introduction, I thought anyone could join in whenever they wanted to?





Marty333 said:


> She worked with the dolphins but switched to discovery cove because of the bad care of all the animals. Also there are no enrichments in their captivity at all it is only a big bucket of water!



That's very sad... Although, I think Sea World and Discovery Cove are owned by the same corp, obviously there are differences in both places concerning the quality of care. From what I understand DC don't do shows, they primarily have "Swim with the Dolphins" programs available.

I don't know very much about DC, as for the size of the tanks, I believe they're more (beach like) but I presume still small in size. I've seen pictures and they have several small round pools in the back where they house Dolphins.


----------



## Yvonne G

Kalina said:


> Huh?
> I didn't realize I had to make an introduction, I thought anyone could join in whenever they wanted to?



What did you think this thread was for:

http://tortoiseforum.org/Forum-Introductions


----------



## Candy

Further, you chose a very poor way to join a forum dedicated to the care and well-being of captive wild animals. When you have some tortoise info to share, then I'll happily welcome you to the forum.

This is what Tom posted. I myself found it to be quite rude and I'm surprised someone else didn't call him on it. I don't believe anyone knows of my qualifications so why would we need hers? I myself just need to ask people questions and read there answers to figure out if they have the right information or not, but first I actually have to read it and listen to what they have to say and try not to be bias when doing so. 



Marty333 said:


> I live in Orlando and I went to the Seaworld Killer whale show like a month before the trainer was killed I dont think they should be keeping this creatures just to earn money. Also my neighbor use to work at seaworld and quit because they treated their animals poorly.



Thanks for sharing your experience at Sea World. I have to comment on how cute Chevy looks in this picture. Maybe a winner for next years calendar. 



Kalina said:


> Candy said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's o.k. Katie although I would have loved to see the photos I understand. I didn't know how they swam so that is very interesting to me. I saw a short video of Tillikum where they said that he was resting but it looked funny to me. He was straight up and down. So they work together in a team that's wonderful! Kalina had given me a site where they are trying to have Lolita freed to the wild. I read it and they know where her pod is so they think that unlike Keiko "Free Willy" it would be more likely that she would be o.k. It would take a while before they could attempt it, but think that it would benefit science so much if they would let her go. They could learn so much more then they know now about them. So I myself think this is a good venture and am willing to join along in the fight to free Lolita.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Lolita's Mom is still alive and well and living 6 months of the year in Puget Sound WA. Her family is there, she has a younger sister now who's around the age of 10. They did recordings of her family communicating between one another and took those recording to Lolita for her to listen to, she reacted to the sounds and tried to get closer to the tape recorder. She would be an excellent candidate for rehabilitation and release, can you just imagine what a success story that would be?
> 
> With regards to keiko (Free Willy)... If a remember correctly, he spent two years in rehabilitation in a natural sea pen, then spent 5 years completely free. The sad thing about Keiko was, they couldn't locate his family, so he didn't take a place in any pod after release. His health was the best it had ever been and he had learned how to forage and eat for himself. Unfortunately, he died of Pneumonia (which is a common illness in Killer Whales)... Some people look badly upon Keiko's release because of the outcome, personally I consider it a huge success, he spent the last 7 years of his life happy and free. His release has paved the way for other Killer Whales in captivity to be given the same opportunities as he had. Lolita would do great, she'd be with her family once again.
Click to expand...


From what I'm reading she would be an excellent candidate for release Kalina. I think if they had known where Keiko's pod was it would have been that much better for his release.



emysemys said:


> Candy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gee Tom I didn't realize there's a special way of joining this forum especially if someone is posting to an "Off Topic Chit Chat",
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think what Tom was referring to was it would have been nice if Kalina had made an introduction before jumping in with both feet into a heated debate, so that we could understand a little better her qualifications.
Click to expand...


jjjjjjjj



emysemys said:


> Candy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gee Tom I didn't realize there's a special way of joining this forum especially if someone is posting to an "Off Topic Chit Chat",
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think what Tom was referring to was it would have been nice if Kalina had made an introduction before jumping in with both feet into a heated debate, so that we could understand a little better her qualifications.
Click to expand...


Well I tried 3 times to post something to this thread but it's not coming through. I even tried posting to Yvonne post by putting jjjjj, but nothing came through. I will try again to post tonight and see if it works.  I think Josh is right and we'll have to continue this thread by starting a new one.


----------



## terryo

Candy said:


> That's o.k. Katie although I would have loved to see the photos I understand. I didn't know how they swam so that is very interesting to me. I saw a short video of Tillikum where they said that he was resting but it looked funny to me. He was straight up and down. So they work together in a team that's wonderful! Kalina had given me a site where they are trying to have Lolita freed to the wild. I read it and they know where her pod is so they think that unlike Keiko "Free Willy" it would be more likely that she would be o.k. It would take a while before they could attempt it, but think that it would benefit science so much if they would let her go. They could learn so much more then they know now about them. So I myself think this is a good venture and am willing to join along in the fight to free Lolita.



What a wonderful thing if this could happen, Candy!


----------



## Marty333

Tom said:


> Candy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well Tom it seems that your emotions are actually getting the best of you on this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's just ridiculous. This has nothing to do with emotions, except yours which are the basis for all of your points. As for your citations, someone earning a PHD does not make them all knowing and unbiased. For an example of incompetent advice from a doctor, look at some of the veterinary advice given for tortoises. Most vets are still telling people that torts pyramid due to excess protein in the diet.
> 
> I bring up the trainers and my friends because they work with these animals ALL DAY, EVERY DAY. Don't you think they know more than someone who read a book or went to college? They know these animals better than they know their own families sometimes. They sleep poolside whenever there is a problem or imminent birth.
> 
> What I'm saying is that through my experiences and friends, I know more about these animals than the average person, but I don't know enough about what it takes to make them "happy" or meet their needs to be making the judgement calls and blanket assertions that you are making. You know even less than me.
> 
> And with all due respect to TerryO, all of our torts have huge natural ranges in the wild. You think your 12" tort has enough room in your back yard? He'd be cramped in a 10 acre pen compared to the wild. I don't see where the disconnect is between YOUR captive wild animals and Sea World's captive wild animals is. If you say that some were wild caught, well so were some of yours and their parents. It is completely hypocritical to point the finger at Sea World for housing captive animals that you decided, based on unfounded emotion, shouldn't be captive, while you have an assortment of captive animals for your own entertainment in your own back yard! If you think the rank and file at Sea World and similar parks is in it for the money, then you are ridiculously ignorant. They get paid squat and have terrible benefits. This is a primary reason that I decided not to throw fish and blow a whistle for a living. I love the water. I love training. And I love cetaceans. But I didn't want to live a life of poverty, so I chose to work elsewhere. Those people do it out of passion and love for the animals. I think its terrible that you would take away their meager lively-hood, their reason for living, and a tremendous educational opportunity for the general public, because you have decided to have a hypocritical animal rightist slant.
> 
> Remember, the reason we are all here on this forum is because we all have captive wild animals in our own homes. There is no difference in your CDT or redfoots and my sulcatas and leopards and Sea World's Killer Whales. Same concept, same difference. You and me selfishly keep ours hidden away in our backyards while at least Sea World, the other parks and the zoos are taking terrific steps toward educating the public and conservation for these animals in the wild. There is a reason why captive animals are called "ambassadors" for their species.
Click to expand...


Killer Whales can kill you more likely than tortoises they are predatory and I think they should belong in the wild! And your friends should know that the best life for them is a life in the wild. Tortoise are different 
they thrive in captivity and are more domesticated than a killer whale.


----------



## DeanS

Marty333 said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Candy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well Tom it seems that your emotions are actually getting the best of you on this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's just ridiculous. This has nothing to do with emotions, except yours which are the basis for all of your points. As for your citations, someone earning a PHD does not make them all knowing and unbiased. For an example of incompetent advice from a doctor, look at some of the veterinary advice given for tortoises. Most vets are still telling people that torts pyramid due to excess protein in the diet.
> 
> I bring up the trainers and my friends because they work with these animals ALL DAY, EVERY DAY. Don't you think they know more than someone who read a book or went to college? They know these animals better than they know their own families sometimes. They sleep poolside whenever there is a problem or imminent birth.
> 
> What I'm saying is that through my experiences and friends, I know more about these animals than the average person, but I don't know enough about what it takes to make them "happy" or meet their needs to be making the judgement calls and blanket assertions that you are making. You know even less than me.
> 
> And with all due respect to TerryO, all of our torts have huge natural ranges in the wild. You think your 12" tort has enough room in your back yard? He'd be cramped in a 10 acre pen compared to the wild. I don't see where the disconnect is between YOUR captive wild animals and Sea World's captive wild animals is. If you say that some were wild caught, well so were some of yours and their parents. It is completely hypocritical to point the finger at Sea World for housing captive animals that you decided, based on unfounded emotion, shouldn't be captive, while you have an assortment of captive animals for your own entertainment in your own back yard! If you think the rank and file at Sea World and similar parks is in it for the money, then you are ridiculously ignorant. They get paid squat and have terrible benefits. This is a primary reason that I decided not to throw fish and blow a whistle for a living. I love the water. I love training. And I love cetaceans. But I didn't want to live a life of poverty, so I chose to work elsewhere. Those people do it out of passion and love for the animals. I think its terrible that you would take away their meager lively-hood, their reason for living, and a tremendous educational opportunity for the general public, because you have decided to have a hypocritical animal rightist slant.
> 
> Remember, the reason we are all here on this forum is because we all have captive wild animals in our own homes. There is no difference in your CDT or redfoots and my sulcatas and leopards and Sea World's Killer Whales. Same concept, same difference. You and me selfishly keep ours hidden away in our backyards while at least Sea World, the other parks and the zoos are taking terrific steps toward educating the public and conservation for these animals in the wild. There is a reason why captive animals are called "ambassadors" for their species.
> 
> 
> 
> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The role of captive wild animals in our society is awkward. We have done it for about as far back as recorded history goes, and it has become increasingly controversial. We used to do it to show off our dominion over animals, our wealth, our hunting prowness, or other forms of ego and pride. Then, it became a business- what cool things can we show that will bring you and your money to us?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Mark you make some good points. But this isn't one of them. You speculate on the whole world's reasons for keeping captive animals and I disagree. Both now and then, I think it stems more from fascination, admiration and awe, than the factors you mentioned. I didn't want a turtle at 7 years old to bring in money or have dominion over anything. I wanted it because I though it was really cool and neat. I loved my turtle, cried when he got sick and adored my time in the yard with him watching him explore.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Killer Whales can kill you more likely than tortoises they are predatory and I think they should belong in the wild! And if your friends should know that the best life for them is a life in the wild. Tortoise are different
> they thrive in captivity and are more domesticated than a killer whale.
Click to expand...




Ironically, there has NEVER been a documented attack on a human by an orca in the wild...think about it!


----------



## ChiKat

emysemys said:


> Kalina said:
> 
> 
> 
> Huh?
> I didn't realize I had to make an introduction, I thought anyone could join in whenever they wanted to?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What did you think this thread was for:
> 
> http://tortoiseforum.org/Forum-Introductions
Click to expand...


FWIW I never used to post introductions when I would join forums...I would just jump in and start posting. I think this is actually one of the few forums where I posted an intro right after I joined!
I just never wanted to add to the "hey I'm new here..." threads.

I think Tom's concern was more that you joined a tortoise-specific forum with no apparent desire to talk about tortoises. 

Anyways, I'm glad to have you here Kalina! You are very knowledgable and I have learned a lot from your posts.


----------



## Candy

emysemys said:


> Kalina said:
> 
> 
> 
> Huh?
> I didn't realize I had to make an introduction, I thought anyone could join in whenever they wanted to?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What did you think this thread was for:
> 
> http://tortoiseforum.org/Forum-Introductions
Click to expand...


The word here is "had". I didn't make an introduction to tortoise forum until almost a month after I'd started posting here. I see people posting threads all of the time and then I see moderators come in and say "Welcome to the forum" yet here I haven't seen that with Kalina only Terry and Isa and I have welcomed her. I am wondering why it's a issue anyway? What does it matter? This is a thread on Killer Whales dying at Sea World not a thread the proper way to join this forum.


----------



## ChiKat

You're right Candy, sorry to get off topic! Seems I'm good at that


----------



## Kalina

Myself and Tom had a debate about our differing opinions, this was pages ago. It sometimes got a little personal during those debates which could be the reason why they're being brought back up to the current page. Since then, the moderator posted asking us to basically keep it nice and that is what we've done. Infact, I don't think I've seen another post since by Tom on this thread. Just because we have different opinions doesn't mean my talking to Tom is off limits. Myself and Tom don't agree when it comes to this topic, but myself and Tom could totally agree on another. We both said things that could be perceived as attacking one another, but that was then and this is now, I'm a big girl and I'm not going to keep Tom at arms length because of it.

Again, with regards to the manner in which I joined this forum: I was directed right to this thread via a google search on Killer Whales. I didn't see the main page or any introduction thread. I have never joined such a message board before so I didn't realize I'd have to state my personal info and qualifications before I could post anything. But for those who are interested, I do have qualifications in Animal Welfare. This covers Animal Handling, Animal Care, Animal Medicine, Animal Behavior..etc This covered Marine Mammals, but not primarily, it focused more on land animals. I have worked for The Humane Society and been an Emergency Surgical Assistant, I've also done rehabilitation of domestic and wild animals. I was also an Animal Cruelty Investigator for 4 years. I hope to go to the UK in March 2011 to do a Marine Mammal Medic Course because I want to help with strandings and so forth, hopefully rehab eventually. I wish I had the pics of the two Wolves I helped rehab, they were beautiful, my old computer crashed with the pics and I could never retrieve them : (
And while I'm being forth coming with my personal life, my name isn't Kalina, it's my name on here only. Kalina was my favorite SW Killer Whale that died recently.

Would also like to add that Lolita has a new family member in the wild, a baby was born this summer into L Pod.


----------



## Kalina

SeaWorld have released Sumar's necropsy results. Cause of death is: twisted intestinal tract (intestinal volvulus).


----------



## Candy

Kalina how long did that take Sea World to find out? Do they know why this happens?


----------



## Kalina

Candy said:


> Kalina how long did that take Sea World to find out? Do they know why this happens?



I think it's taken a couple of months for the results to come thru... This condition happens in a lot of animals, I adopted a dog from the local shelter years ago, on the first week we had him he ate the entire contents of our trash, everything, even packaging. He had to spend the night in the vets incase of this condition.


----------



## stells

Well i never made an introduction either... slap my wrists... this forum is getting very picky and quite ridiculous...

I also said on the other killer whale thread a few months back... that i didn't understand how Tom thinks this is ok... but he made the outdoors pets thread in the debabtable section... basically saying you should only have certain species of tortoises depending on your climate... and if you can't get them outside you shouldn't have them at all...

Odd!!!


----------



## chadk

I think the comparison to pet torts is actually pretty reasonable - only off in scale... (no pun intended)

No, torts are not "more domesticated", that is silly. 

Many torts die a horrible death while in captivity. We see it all the time. Then there are those who survive, but just barely - living in a 10 gallon glass tank that they cannot even turn around in - getting what little nutrients and water they can find from lettuce.

If that is all you knew about tort keepers - you would be outraged and want to end the captivity of such animals.

20yrs ago, we knew even less about caring for torts and even the best of the best keepers got a lot of it wrong.

Yet now we are getting more educated and there are many good pet tort owners out there who give their torts a pretty good life. No, not talking about those who 'spoil' their tort with treats, fancy vivs, etc - but those who are able to give their tort a natural, yet safe environment to grow up and to 'torty' type things - getting exercise, good diet, and other needs met. 

As many on here have warned, not everyone is suited be a sulcata owner. It takes lots of space, some time, maybe money in the form of a heated shed and electricity, and the willingness to let them trash their yard\pen. But for those who can meet the demands, the torts can have a great life and the tort owner can feel confident they are doing right by the tort.

Now clearly not everyone is able to be a good whale owner. The question is, what would it take to be a good whale owner? Would you need a 1/2 acre pond? 5 acres? 20ft deep? 50? Water temps and salinity? Would you need to just pen off a natural bay in the natural habbitat? 

Some may say, well, in the wild, an orca will travel 100 miles a day - so clearly that is not going to work in captivity. Well, many try to make the same arguement for tortoises. So the question is, why do they travel that far? Is it because they are following the schools of salmon and\or migration of sea lions? If they had all their needs met in one area, would they really travel that far then, or would they stick around where their needs are met? Maybe in the end, everyone will agree that an orca just can't and shouldn't be in any kind of captivity. But also, over time and much learning, we may find out, like we have with torts, that with some deeper understanding, we can reasonably meet their needs in captivity, and places like Sea World can make the needed changes to provide that environment for their animals. Even today, with all we know about torts, you'll still find zoos and other places that 'should know better', with horrible tort husbandry. But they can and many do change over time as they learn more. Why couldn't Sea World?


----------



## Candy

The main reason Sea World can't is the money and the profit they bring in. Tillikum will now live out his life alone in some tank in the back because Sea World will not let him go due to the fact that (to put it bluntly) his sperm is worth too much money to them. I won't say never, but I doubt that they will ever put another trainer near him so he won't be preforming shows anymore so why keep him? I guess it's possible that they could sell him to some other marine park.  If I'm correct they also know where his pod is (just as they know where Lolita's pod is). Why not let science experiment by letting him go back with his pod and let them study what happens when he does? Money that's why.


----------



## Kristina

Kalina said:


> Again, with regards to the manner in which I joined this forum: I was directed right to this thread via a google search on Killer Whales. I didn't see the main page or any introduction thread. I have never joined such a message board before so I didn't realize I'd have to state my personal info and qualifications before I could post anything. But for those who are interested, I do have qualifications in Animal Welfare. This covers Animal Handling, Animal Care, Animal Medicine, Animal Behavior..etc This covered Marine Mammals, but not primarily, it focused more on land animals. I have worked for The Humane Society and been an Emergency Surgical Assistant, I've also done rehabilitation of domestic and wild animals. I was also an Animal Cruelty Investigator for 4 years. I hope to go to the UK in March 2011 to do a Marine Mammal Medic Course because I want to help with strandings and so forth, hopefully rehab eventually. I wish I had the pics of the two Wolves I helped rehab, they were beautiful, my old computer crashed with the pics and I could never retrieve them : (
> And while I'm being forth coming with my personal life, my name isn't Kalina, it's my name on here only. Kalina was my favorite SW Killer Whale that died recently.



It doesn't have anything to do with qualifications and personal information. This is getting totally blown out of proportion. While I understand that you joined the forum because this thread came up on a google search, this is The Tortoise Forum. Most of the members here have tortoises, have had tortoises, or are researching to get tortoises. 

True enough, this is the off-topic section of the forum. But the main aspect of this forum is, plain and simple, tortoises, not killer whales.

I am not saying that you did anything wrong. You came here to add your knowledge to this particular thread, and that is fine. It is unfortunate that the rest of us however cannot interact with you on the topic that we are really passionate about, and the purpose for this forum - tortoises. 

I don't like to see any animal suffer, but my passion is reptiles. I just don't have the same feelings when it comes to the whales. And considering that we have over 5,000 members and only 20 or so have regularly posted on this thread - I imagine others feel the same way.

I am not discrediting what either Candy or you are trying to do, which is to educate and help the whales. There has been a lot of information shared through this thread. But I don't think that this cause is going to make it very far from this page while being discussed on this particular forum, because it isn't about whales. I am not saying that to be mean or discouraging, but realistic. 

The good thing is that all your hard research and information sharing IS preserved on this thread, and will continue to pop up in google searches. But furthering disagreement is only going to tarnish what you are trying to accomplish, and it is getting to the point of beating a dead horse to death, if you get my drift. If anyone wants to add additional information, facts, or experiences about the whales, feel free to do so. But I think it is time to call it quits to the who joined where for what, who said this, who did that, etc. Drop it completely and if you choose to continue the thread, keep it on topic. Odd to have to say that in the off topic section, huh?


----------



## terryo

I'm wondering why sometimes I can see the posts on this thread and then other times I can't see the last post. Weird.


----------



## Kristina

Kalina said:


> Candy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kalina how long did that take Sea World to find out? Do they know why this happens?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's taken a couple of months for the results to come thru... This condition happens in a lot of animals, I adopted a dog from the local shelter years ago, on the first week we had him he ate the entire contents of our trash, everything, even packaging. He had to spend the night in the vets incase of this condition.
Click to expand...


Very common in horses, as well. They colic and then lay down and thrash, and end up twisting the gut. I lost a horse to this several years ago. 

Oddly enough, colic is one of several conditions that DO NOT exist in wild horses. Laminitis and Cushings are two others.

It stands to reason that Sumar had a stomach ache, and was rolling to try to make it feel better. The confines of the pen probably led to the actual twisting.


----------



## Candy

terryo said:


> I'm wondering why sometimes I can see the posts on this thread and then other times I can't see the last post. Weird.



I've posted here tonight Terry and it didn't show up but yet Kristina and you post and it doesn't show up. I had another member pm me that her's didn't show up either. I pm'd Kristina but all she said was that she could see her post so she didn't know what the problem was. 



kyryah said:


> Kalina said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, with regards to the manner in which I joined this forum: I was directed right to this thread via a google search on Killer Whales. I didn't see the main page or any introduction thread. I have never joined such a message board before so I didn't realize I'd have to state my personal info and qualifications before I could post anything. But for those who are interested, I do have qualifications in Animal Welfare. This covers Animal Handling, Animal Care, Animal Medicine, Animal Behavior..etc This covered Marine Mammals, but not primarily, it focused more on land animals. I have worked for The Humane Society and been an Emergency Surgical Assistant, I've also done rehabilitation of domestic and wild animals. I was also an Animal Cruelty Investigator for 4 years. I hope to go to the UK in March 2011 to do a Marine Mammal Medic Course because I want to help with strandings and so forth, hopefully rehab eventually. I wish I had the pics of the two Wolves I helped rehab, they were beautiful, my old computer crashed with the pics and I could never retrieve them : (
> And while I'm being forth coming with my personal life, my name isn't Kalina, it's my name on here only. Kalina was my favorite SW Killer Whale that died recently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't have anything to do with qualifications and personal information. This is getting totally blown out of proportion. While I understand that you joined the forum because this thread came up on a google search, this is The Tortoise Forum. Most of the members here have tortoises, have had tortoises, or are researching to get tortoises.
> 
> True enough, this is the off-topic section of the forum. But the main aspect of this forum is, plain and simple, tortoises, not killer whales.
> 
> I am not saying that you did anything wrong. You came here to add your knowledge to this particular thread, and that is fine. It is unfortunate that the rest of us however cannot interact with you on the topic that we are really passionate about, and the purpose for this forum - tortoises.
> 
> I don't like to see any animal suffer, but my passion is reptiles. I just don't have the same feelings when it comes to the whales. And considering that we have over 5,000 members and only 20 or so have regularly posted on this thread - I imagine others feel the same way.
> 
> I am not discrediting what either Candy or you are trying to do, which is to educate and help the whales. There has been a lot of information shared through this thread. But I don't think that this cause is going to make it very far from this page while being discussed on this particular forum, because it isn't about whales. I am not saying that to be mean or discouraging, but realistic.
> 
> The good thing is that all your hard research and information sharing IS preserved on this thread, and will continue to pop up in google searches. But furthering disagreement is only going to tarnish what you are trying to accomplish, and it is getting to the point of beating a dead horse to death, if you get my drift. If anyone wants to add additional information, facts, or experiences about the whales, feel free to do so. But I think it is time to call it quits to the who joined where for what, who said this, who did that, etc. Drop it completely and if you choose to continue the thread, keep it on topic. Odd to have to say that in the off topic section, huh?
Click to expand...


I'm sorry but I'm having a very hard time understanding this post. After all Kalina posted a few days ago and hasn't brought this up since then. The one who brought it up was Stells and I myself agree 100% percent with her. I think that some people have forgotten the rules to this forum and "Off Topic Chit Chat" so let me post them here. This is copied from the main page of the forum. 

Off Topic Chit Chat
Anything Goes -- Post about your breakfast, your car troubles, or your new shoes.
Sub Forums: Forum Contains New PostsBooks, Music, Movies, and other media, Forum Contains New PostsOff Topic Debates




I know that this is a thread about Killer Whales and maybe there's just a few of us that want to post about it here like Kristina says, but that's o.k. I don't need everyone on this site to post here, but I do find the information valuable that others and myself have posted and for others to learn from. Anyway has anyone noticed that Kalina actually has a turtle and has started a new thread on it. So see this thread brought TFO another member and that's what this forum is all about. 



kyryah said:


> Kalina said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, with regards to the manner in which I joined this forum: I was directed right to this thread via a google search on Killer Whales. I didn't see the main page or any introduction thread. I have never joined such a message board before so I didn't realize I'd have to state my personal info and qualifications before I could post anything. But for those who are interested, I do have qualifications in Animal Welfare. This covers Animal Handling, Animal Care, Animal Medicine, Animal Behavior..etc This covered Marine Mammals, but not primarily, it focused more on land animals. I have worked for The Humane Society and been an Emergency Surgical Assistant, I've also done rehabilitation of domestic and wild animals. I was also an Animal Cruelty Investigator for 4 years. I hope to go to the UK in March 2011 to do a Marine Mammal Medic Course because I want to help with strandings and so forth, hopefully rehab eventually. I wish I had the pics of the two Wolves I helped rehab, they were beautiful, my old computer crashed with the pics and I could never retrieve them : (
> And while I'm being forth coming with my personal life, my name isn't Kalina, it's my name on here only. Kalina was my favorite SW Killer Whale that died recently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't have anything to do with qualifications and personal information. This is getting totally blown out of proportion. While I understand that you joined the forum because this thread came up on a google search, this is The Tortoise Forum. Most of the members here have tortoises, have had tortoises, or are researching to get tortoises.
> 
> True enough, this is the off-topic section of the forum. But the main aspect of this forum is, plain and simple, tortoises, not killer whales.
> 
> I am not saying that you did anything wrong. You came here to add your knowledge to this particular thread, and that is fine. It is unfortunate that the rest of us however cannot interact with you on the topic that we are really passionate about, and the purpose for this forum - tortoises.
> 
> I don't like to see any animal suffer, but my passion is reptiles. I just don't have the same feelings when it comes to the whales. And considering that we have over 5,000 members and only 20 or so have regularly posted on this thread - I imagine others feel the same way.
> 
> I am not discrediting what either Candy or you are trying to do, which is to educate and help the whales. There has been a lot of information shared through this thread. But I don't think that this cause is going to make it very far from this page while being discussed on this particular forum, because it isn't about whales. I am not saying that to be mean or discouraging, but realistic.
> 
> The good thing is that all your hard research and information sharing IS preserved on this thread, and will continue to pop up in google searches. But furthering disagreement is only going to tarnish what you are trying to accomplish, and it is getting to the point of beating a dead horse to death, if you get my drift. If anyone wants to add additional information, facts, or experiences about the whales, feel free to do so. But I think it is time to call it quits to the who joined where for what, who said this, who did that, etc. Drop it completely and if you choose to continue the thread, keep it on topic. Odd to have to say that in the off topic section, huh?
Click to expand...


I'm sorry but I'm having a very hard time understanding this post. After all Kalina posted a few days ago and hasn't brought this up since then. The one who brought it up was Stells and I myself agree 100% percent with her. I think that some people have forgotten the rules to this forum and "Off Topic Chit Chat" so let me post them here. This is copied from the main page of the forum. 

Off Topic Chit Chat
Anything Goes -- Post about your breakfast, your car troubles, or your new shoes.
Sub Forums: Forum Contains New PostsBooks, Music, Movies, and other media, Forum Contains New PostsOff Topic Debates




I know that this is a thread about Killer Whales and maybe there's just a few of us that want to post about it here like Kristina says, but that's o.k. I don't need everyone on this site to post here, but I do find the information valuable that others and myself have posted and for others to learn from. Anyway has anyone noticed that Kalina actually has a turtle and has started a new thread on it. So see this thread brought TFO another member and that's what this forum is all about.


----------



## Isa

I have learned (and still learn) a lot in this thread. Call me ignorant, but I did not know how the whole "killer whale at sea park" really was. I think this thread can help in a certain way, I told my family and my friends about that, I showed them the video and some told me they would never go to a sea park ever again, call me and them extremist, but it is a personal choice. I think it is very important TO KNOW, to talk about animal abuse, not just "shut up about it"


----------



## Yvonne G

I think Kristina was just reminding everyone that this thread is about the killer whales at Sea World and not about picking on each other. She could see that it was getting a little heated and was trying to keep peace.

As to postings, Chad seems to have his posts show up in duplicate and others say their posts aren't showing up at all. This is something to take up with Josh, as the moderators have no control over that.

So, everyone, please stay calm. We all can learn from each other and its good to listen to both sides...with neither side trying to convince the other which side is correct or better.


----------



## Candy

Isa said:


> I have learned (and still learn) a lot in this thread. Call me ignorant, but I did not know how the whole "killer whale at sea park" really was. I think this thread can help in a certain way, I told my family and my friends about that, I showed them the video and some told me they would never go to a sea park ever again, call me and them extremist, but it is a personal choice. I think it is very important TO KNOW, to talk about animal abuse, not just "shut up about it"



Thank you Isa and I agree I learned even more when Kalina arrived here. I just ordered the video that she suggested to me. "Lolita Slave to Entertainment" http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0018SJ77K/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20 and I can't wait to watch it. Kalina says that her daughter just got the o.k. to show it in science and I've talked with my son about him doing it for his science project this year.


----------



## Kalina

Wow, just WOW!!

Anyway... Seaworld released the sex of their new Killer Whale Calf lastnight.. Katina's baby calf is a boy.


----------



## Kalina

Candy said:


> Isa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have learned (and still learn) a lot in this thread. Call me ignorant, but I did not know how the whole "killer whale at sea park" really was. I think this thread can help in a certain way, I told my family and my friends about that, I showed them the video and some told me they would never go to a sea park ever again, call me and them extremist, but it is a personal choice. I think it is very important TO KNOW, to talk about animal abuse, not just "shut up about it"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Isa and I agree I learned even more when Kalina arrived here. I just ordered the video that she suggested to me. "Lolita Slave to Entertainment" http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0018SJ77K/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20 and I can't wait to watch it. Kalina says that her daughter just got the o.k. to show it in science and I've talked with my son about him doing it for his science project this year.
Click to expand...


The teacher took the DVD so she could watch it at home to make sure it's age appropriate, (I guess she had to make sure there was no blood and guts in it)... You'll love it Candy, it shows Lolita as a very special Orca considering all the others caught have died years and years ago. She's a really remarkable girl.


----------



## Candy

Well I just received the DVD of "Lolita Slave to Entertainment" and we all watched it. Even my 25 year old sat down after hearing parts of it and watched with us. This is a very educational documentary for anyone to watch. To anyone who thinks that these Whales are better off captive I challenge you to watch the "EXPERTS" that I just watched tell how awful it is where she lives in the Miami Sea Aquarium. They have Ex-animal trainers that testify to the lying that is going on in these marine parks so the public does not know what really happens there. All the whales who die after capture and how their deaths are kept quite so we'll keep going and buying tickets so they don't lose their profit. They also testify to the lies that go on about how this educates the public. It is shameful and this video shows just how they're captured and also talks with the men who captured them years ago, most who are now fighting to get Lolita freed and to stop the captivity of these whales and dolphins. One actually takes you behind the scenes of the marine park to show you how dangerous it is even to be sitting in the audience watching. The park has been sited many times for this and the inspectors just turn the other cheek. Lolita's tank is actually illegal in terms of how big it is and what it should be and the Humane Society filed a complaint years ago, but still nothing was done about it. Money that's what holds these innocent animals there and every time we buy a ticket it just prolongs their freedom. I am now definitely joining this fight to help release this whale and then maybe someday the others will be free again too. Truly free. Here's the website for anyone who wants to help out or start learning about Lolita and other whales in captivity.

http://orcanetwork.org/


----------



## terryo

This was a great thread Candy. I think all of us learned a lot from it. Sometimes these things have to be brought out in the open so people realize how animals suffer for our entertainment. Every little bit helps educate.


----------



## Kalina

Glad you enjoyed the DVD Candy, it's a real eye opener.
With regards to Lolita's tank being illegal... I once wrote to Naomi Rose at the Humane Society International about that. The law regarding tank size in respect to keeping a whale of Lolitas size was brought into effect AFTER Lolita was purchased and already being housed at MSQ.. There's grandfather laws in place to protect parks from being effected or having to spend millions to expand tanks if they already had Dolphins/Whales at their facilties. Although the tank is clearly illegal, there is NO law to force MSQ to build Lolita a new tank. I know it sounds grim, and you'd think after Lolita earning the MSQ nearly 200 million $$ they would house her in somewhat humane conditions.
On a good note: The MSQ can never replace Lolita with another Killer Whale because of the tank size.. And from what I understand, the MSQ will never be approved to build a bigger tank at that location, which means a win for the Whales : )


----------



## Candy

Sorry my post didn't come through right with pictures that I wanted to show. I'll try again later.


----------



## Kalina

Here's an article regarding the autopsy results of Nami, the captive Killer Whale who lived at the Taiji Whale Museum.

http://theorcaproject.wordpress.com/2011/02/02/killer-whale-nami-cause-of-death/

According to the Port of Nagoya Public Aquarium, a necropsy (animal autopsy) has found that the female killer whale Ã¢â‚¬Å“NamiÃ¢â‚¬Â, who died in January, had 491 stones weighing 81.4 kilograms (179.5 lbs) in total stuck in her stomach.

As we reported HERE last month, the 28-year-old female orca became sick and was losing weight in late December and passed away on January 14, 2011 nearly 7 months after being transported to Nagoya from her home of 24 years at the Taiji Whale Museum.

One pocket of her stomach was reportedly sagging due to the weight of some 70 kilograms (154 lbs) of pebbles stuffed in it, including the largest stone that measured 17 centimeters (6.7 inches) in length and weighed 2.1 kilograms (4.6 lbs). Furthermore, an ulcer was found in another pocket of her stomach, and bleeding from the spleen and enteritis were also diagnosed. The ailments are thought to have put a strain on NamiÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s heart. ~ The Mainichi Daily News

The facility announced that Nami suffered from a stomach ulcer and pneumonia after swallowing the stones over the course of many years at the Taiji Whale Museum where orcas were displayed in part of a natural cove. There are no stones in the pool where Nami was kept at the aquarium in Nagoya.

The Port of Nagoya Public Aquarium plans on teaming up with external experts to further examine what caused NamiÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s death and review how killer whales should be raised in captivity. Presently, there are no orcas living at either the Taiji Whale Museum or the Port of Nagoya Public Aquarium.


----------



## terryo

How awful and so sad.


----------



## Isa

Horrible  RIP Nami!


----------



## Kalina

Killer whale trainers won't be in water for new SeaWorld show
'One Ocean,' which replaces 'Believe,' will debut in late April at SeaWorld Orlando

A new killer-whale show that SeaWorld Parks & Entertainment will open this spring in its three U.S. marine parks will not include any in-water interaction between trainers and whales.

Dubbed "One Ocean," the performance will debut in late April at SeaWorld Orlando, on Memorial Day weekend at SeaWorld San Diego and in June at SeaWorld San Antonio, SeaWorld was to announce today. It will replace the nearly 5-year-old "Believe" show as the showcase attraction in the company's marine parks.

Plans for the new show have been deeply influenced by the Feb. 24, 2010, death of SeaWorld Orlando trainer Dawn Brancheau, who was battered and drowned by a company killer whale, and by the months-long safety review that has followed the tragedy.

The most significant adjustment: The new show has been designed for trainers to work exclusively from the stage, instead of in the water with the killer whales. Instead of "rocket hops" Ã¢â‚¬â€ the iconic maneuver in which a whale propels a trainer out of the water Ã¢â‚¬â€ "One Ocean" will feature highlights such as multiple orcas performing in unison and maneuvering amid giant fountains.

SeaWorld hasn't let its trainers swim with the animals since Brancheau's death. It has said it will reinstitute such "water work" only if it can make sufficient safety improvements.

"We are now staying out of the water. We don't know when or how that's going to change. So we said, 'Let's design this one to facilitate that and go in that direction,' " said Julie Scardina, SeaWorld Parks' curator of animal training. "This show was designed to create the interconnectedness with the whales without having to be in the water."

"One Ocean" will also have a more explicit conservation theme than "Believe" did, with images and messages that "revolve around the ocean, the environment, what people can do to make a difference," Scardina said.

She said the new show will emphasize the individual personalities of each of the roughly two-dozen killer whales in SeaWorld's corporate collection. During the show, for instance, trainers will have some guests interact with the animals through the glass surrounding the show pool. Trainers will also have more latitude about what behaviors to use than they did during the tightly choreographed "Believe."

"With the last show, we probably focused a little bit more on the fact that these are amazing performers. Now, we want to introduce them to the audience," Scardina said. "We want to bring them [guests] down to the glass and get close, and let people see that the older whales actually do teach the younger whales, that when they interact together they have fun."

The new themes have been crafted following months of heavy criticism from animal-rights activists who say marine parks provide no genuine educational benefit and that keeping the world's largest marine predator in captivity is inhumane. Critics contend that Brancheau's death Ã¢â‚¬â€ and a similar death in December 2009 of an orca trainer at a Canary Islands marine park Ã¢â‚¬â€ were the result of killer whales enduring extreme stress in captive environments, a conclusion that SeaWorld vehemently disputes.

To prepare for "One Ocean," SeaWorld's three Shamu Stadium orca complexes will undergo significant construction, as crews install fountains, paint new color schemes and, in some of the parks, replace oversized video screens. Scardina said the physical improvements will be comparable to what SeaWorld did to prepare for "Believe," on which the company reportedly spent more than $10 million.

Scardina said SeaWorld is also incorporating new safety features developed as part of the internal review launched following the Brancheau tragedy. But she declined to discuss specific measures, citing the ongoing legal fight in which SeaWorld is contesting a citation issued last year by the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration.

A hearing before an administrative judge with the U.S. Occupational Safety and Review Commission is scheduled for April 25.

The new killer-whale shows are among 10 new attractions SeaWorld Parks & Entertainment will add at its 10 U.S. theme and water parks this year. SeaWorld says the construction spree, which is expected to approach nearly $200 million in 2011, is the largest single-year capital investment in company history.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/busi...ld-killer-whale-show-20110203,0,5206150.story


----------



## Kalina

Seaworld Has a Whale of a Debt in Their Financial Tank

According to the Wall Street Journal, Seaworld has accumulated a mind-boggling $1.2 billion dollar debt, and is taking steps to refinance in hopes of saving itself $14 million a year in interest. Standard and Poors, the company that evaluates the credit-worthiness of businesses, gives Seaworld a moderately low BB- rating, in spite of Seaworldâ€™s efforts to restructure:

"The 'BB-' corporate credit rating reflects SeaWorld's low profit margin
compared to its theme park operator peers, cyclical and seasonal operating
performance, and geographic concentration in Florida," said Standard & Poor's
credit analyst Ariel Silverberg, "and management's plan to increase capital
spending this year, which may reduce discretionary cash flow." These factors
are only modestly offset by SeaWorld's position as a distant second-largest
U.S. theme park company in terms of revenue (after The Walt Disney Co.) and
moderate debt leverage. 

"While the proposed refinancing transaction will slightly reduce fixed charges
and extend maturities," said Ms. Silverberg, "we view the transaction as
neutral to the credit risk of SeaWorld."

Seaworld alternately blames the bad economy and public reaction to the death of trainer Dawn Brancheau last year for itâ€™s financial woes, and has taken steps to modify their shows in hopes of bringing back tourist dollars. The newly redesigned show will keep trainers out of the water, and is touted to place more emphasis on education (yet as activist Ric Oâ€™Barry points out, the logic of keeping whales in tanks to illustrate the natural world is a bit twisted) and they are counting on the public to somehow be seduced into giving up itâ€™s hard earned money to keep Seaworld afloat.

As a commenter to this public relations video noted: If it is educational, why are they referring to female orcas as â€˜heâ€™?

Ric Oâ€™Barry counters this point of view in talking about the captive whale â€œLolitaâ€ whose family still swims free in the waters near Seattle, and includes remarks by the Center for Whale Research senior scientist, Ken Balcomb:

Last year Costco ran a survey of itâ€™s members, and reported that only around 17% feel that keeping wild animals in captivity for our amusement is right. It is time for the amusement parks to stop capturing and breeding whales and dolphins, there is nothing amusing about it.
http://blog.seattlepi.com/candacewh...as-a-whale-of-a-debt-in-their-financial-tank/


----------



## Kalina

Love, Love, Love this article.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8703043.stm

New research is showing that whales and dolphins possess intelligence and culture more complex that we had previously assumed, says Margi Prideaux. And, she argues, this raises anew the question of how we should relate to them - including whether it is ever right to hunt them.

Despite long held preconceptions of human pre-eminence, scientists are discovering sophisticated intelligence beyond the boundaries of our own species.

It may surprise us, but dolphins and whales have such qualities.

Is it possible that 2010 could be remembered as the year when we faced our insecurities and embraced other highly evolved species, with all the responsibility that entails?

This year, which is set to be an eventful one, started with a physical clash between whalers and activists in the Southern Ocean.

Perhaps our unfulfilled anticipation of action on climate change late last year made us reach for progress somewhere else - namely biodiversity.

The confrontation between whalers and campaigners sparked a global debate about how we regard other species on the planet.

In this case, it was asked whether whales and dolphins exist as a resource for humans, or whether they have an inherent right to their life, their liberty and their home.

Meeting of minds

In February, the 2010 Meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) addressed the unprecedented subject of "intelligence in dolphins: ethical and policy implications".

A panel of three well-regarded academics discussed whether the emerging scientific knowledge about the cultural and cognitive processes of whales and dolphins should influence international policy decisions and ethical considerations for their treatment.

Their conclusions were that yes, it should.

Within days of the AAAS conference, a veteran animal trainer in the US drowned when a male orca dragged her underwater.

Surprisingly, there was not a media or public outcry against the whale itself.

Instead, attention was focused on the appropriateness of keeping this mighty, complex and intelligent species captive for human entertainment.

In March, the International Whaling Commission (IWC) met to discuss the details of a "deal" about the future of whaling activities.

The global discussion then erupted into sharp debate, with some favouring a return to whaling, and others saying such a precedent should never again be set.

Governments in both camps suddenly found themselves under significant pressure from their constituencies, and the political dance for positions began.

At the same time, The Cove - a documentary investigating the annual slaughter of more than 20,000 dolphins and porpoises around Japan - unexpectedly received the Academy Award for Best Documentary 2010, mainstreaming another example of our need to confront our relationship with these species.

By the end of March, a Los Angeles restaurant was closing its doors as a self-imposed penalty for serving whalemeat.

In late April, an unprecedented US Congressional oversight hearing was held to review the education and conservation value of keeping marine mammals in captivity.

The hearing came about through a convergence of important events, including the orca incident, public uproar about the link between the dolphin drive hunts in Japan and the international zoo and aquaria industry, and a timely regulatory review process.

April also marked the second major oil spill in six months seriously to threaten habitats of whale and dolphin populations in different parts of the world.

Setting the agenda

With four eventful months behind us, we now look towards the IWC meeting in June where governments will formally consider the proposal that could usher in the return to whaling.

This meeting will, in some ways, conclude the six-month conversation and set the tone for our relationship with these animals for decades to come.

Will our consideration of whales and dolphins be based on numerical calculations of abundance, or will we recognise them as highly evolved mammals living in complex societies?

The fact that discussion is even taking place indicates we are on the road towards a position of respect.

Many whale and dolphin researchers now agree that they are studying sophisticated, evolved intelligences, born of a differently constructed sense of self; without necessarily needing to be an "intellect" directly comparable to ours.

We now understand that dolphins and whales, in various different ways, have distinct personalities and identities; that they can think about the future, and have the innate ability to learn language.

Much of whale and dolphin behaviour is cultural, learned and passed down through generations.

They have complex decision-making and communications structures, and an independent evolution of social learning and cultural transmission appropriate to the radically different environment they live in.

Decision time

Blinded by the limits of our own imagination, historically we have found it difficult to envisage another entity with capabilities that rival our own.

It has been our own insecurity that impedes our recognition of the impact of our actions on animals that society could otherwise regard as having moral significance.

In so many ways, they are as complex as we are.

Acknowledging that at least some animals are "beyond use" brings forward implications spanning philosophy, law, science and policy.

However, the evidence suggests that a challenge to the status quo is the next logical step.

No-one is suggesting that whales and dolphins be granted a right to vote, to hold a driver's licence, or to receive a free and fair education.

But in this short half-year we have had enough examples posed to evoke a deep and thoughtful global conversation about our collective moral compasses.

Perhaps it is time for us to decide that we believe whales and dolphins do have a right to their lives, their liberty and the protection of their home and family.

Or will we return to a world that accepts whaling? Will whales and dolphins, like the orca in the US marine park, continue to circle pools for our entertainment?

The choice is ours to make.

Margi Prideaux is strategic policy director for the Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society (WDCS) International

The Green Room is a series of opinion articles on environmental issues running weekly on the BBC News website


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## Bubba30

I love all animals. And it's so so sad that people would do that to such beautiful creature for their own selfish needs and entertainment.


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## Candy

Very good information Kalina. I tell everyone that I come across to boycott Sea World and any other marine park that holds killer whales or dolphins. I also post it on Facebook so others can read the truth about these disgusting parks and what they really are all about. Noah is half way through his science project on killer whales so it won't be long before he influences a few more kids not to support these places.


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## Torty Mom

Great post Kalina!!!


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