# Hibernate or Not Hibernate?



## Vishnu2 (Aug 17, 2012)

Do you feel like Russians have to hibernate? 

Do you hibernate yours? (if you have one) 

If I don't hibernate mine with it lessen their life span? 

At what age should hibernation start?

Thanks so much!

Vishnu.


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## Eweezyfosheezy (Aug 17, 2012)

I dont hibernate mine until they reach 4 inches. I dont hibernate any new additions until 1 year after I get them regardless of size. I keep all mine outside 24/7 all year long and they hibernate when they want to. There are no studies to my knowledge that lessen the lifespan if there is no hibernation. I only hibernate healthy tortoises so any ones that were to show any symptoms showing URI or anything else will be brought in during the winter.


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## ascott (Aug 17, 2012)

I believe that a tortoise species that has evolved over a few years D) to include brumation as part of their natural life cycle should be allowed to do the same in captivity.

However, I also believe it to be a death sentence for someone to brumate a tort without doing the proper research from multiple sources to educate themselves on what needs to happen before during and after brumation to assure better results from the event for the tortoise.....

Many people do not brumate by personal choice and they then will set up indoor winter enclosures designed to over winter their tort....

You will really want and need to study many methods used for successful brumation and also keep in mind, even in the wild torts canand and do fail during brumation....so there is no 100%, but then again very few things in life are a 100%.....


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## Vishnu2 (Aug 17, 2012)

I do not want to hibernate. However, I want to provide the best home possible for a Russian. So, if a Russian needs to hibernate or it shortens it's life span for some reason because I fail to, I would like to know. As this might not be the best tortoise for me.


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## Jacqui (Aug 17, 2012)

I use to be strongly for hibernation/brumation, but with years of experience, reading what I can, and so I changed my mind. While I still do allow my red eared sliders, paints, and snappers, the others I no longer believe it is in their best interest. These include my Russians and box turtles. I have found no evidence that it either increases or decreases their life spans and certainly it does not effect their breeding. It does too often seem healthy appearing animals develop issues during the hibernation process and thus either are very sick when they awaken or die without coming out. I myself have done the box method in a unused cooled area, the refrigerator method, and even the natural outside method.


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## Vishnu2 (Aug 17, 2012)

Wow, thank you Jacqui for your wisdom and sharing your experience. I appreciate you.


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## Eweezyfosheezy (Aug 17, 2012)

I think the only true way to tell if it shortens their lifespan or not is to get two groups of hatchlings that hatched around the same time and raise one without hibernation and one with hibernation. I doubt there is any short term effects besides less breeding activity in non hibernating russians. I dont think anyone knows if there is any long term effects (health wise) of not hibernating your russian tortoise unless they raised two different groups for dozens of years.


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## Vishnu2 (Aug 17, 2012)

Eweezyfosheezy said:


> I think the only true way to tell if it shortens their lifespan or not is to get two groups of hatchlings that hatched around the same time and raise one without hibernation and one with hibernation. I doubt there is any short term effects besides less breeding activity in non hibernating russians. I dont think anyone knows if there is any long term effects (health wise) of not hibernating your russian tortoise unless they raised two different groups for dozens of years.



Of course.


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## kanalomele (Aug 17, 2012)

I live in central California where my adults live outside year round. They are allowed to hibernate as longvas it has been a healthy season for them. If there has been even a hint of illness they are kept awake. I never allow hatchlings to hibernate, and usually don't recommend yearlings do so. I believe they are healthier and happier being allowed to live as naturally as safely possible.


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## Vishnu2 (Aug 17, 2012)

kanalomele said:


> I live in central California where my adults live outside year round. They are allowed to hibernate as longvas it has been a healthy season for them. If there has been even a hint of illness they are kept awake. I never allow hatchlings to hibernate, and usually don't recommend yearlings do so. I believe they are healthier and happier being allowed to live as naturally as safely possible.



Thank you..


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## lynnedit (Aug 17, 2012)

kanalomele said:


> I live in central California where my adults live outside year round. They are allowed to hibernate as longvas it has been a healthy season for them. If there has been even a hint of illness they are kept awake. I never allow hatchlings to hibernate, and usually don't recommend yearlings do so. I believe they are healthier and happier being allowed to live as naturally as safely possible.



Where do yours hibernate outside, any specific area?


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## kanalomele (Aug 17, 2012)

No specific area, I tend to trust their natural wisdom and let them choose. I have an area that tends to flood, so I make sure nobody is there. They seem to like areas that have some sort of natural shelter. Such as under my rose bushes, or the base of the agapanthas. When I have hibernated them indoors, I use a rodent proof box that goes on a shelf on an exterior wall of my garage. It stays plenty cold in there, and I can check on them when necessary.


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## CactusVinnie (Aug 18, 2012)

If not hibernating Russians, then what species to hibernate?? They are awake only 3 monts /year... their winters are like in Colorado or Minnesota... yeah, they really don't need it ... in fact, they are tropical species in an excursion in Central Asia, but... just "had to hibernate", lacking tropical sun and a Margarita at reach...

I want to say that MOST- and I mean not 51%, but close to 99%- of European breeders allow their temperate tortoises to HIBERNATE. I do so for hatchlings- at the moment, only my own Ibera, and 1 Boettgeri received last year... not a loss, not a health issue... and I am a beginner. Just following common sense and Nature, and it is 90% of successfull tortoise keeping!
Wild Horsfieldi babies hatch in end July- September, and they remain underground until *next spring*- yes, they HIBERNATE *before eating or seeing the sunlight!!* 
Horsfieldi, Ibera, Hermanni- all these species can FREEZE solid down to -3...-4*C even for more than 2 weeks and getting back unharmed- not that I suggest to replicate even that one in captivity _(it happened accidentally to some!)_, but it clearly shows that they have evolved subtle mechanisms to cope with their climate and they are designed for that climate, not for a TROPICAL one, as it is when overwintered indoors.

Try that with a Graeca, not to mention another species- they cannot take prolonged cold or freezing, but the temperate ones CAN... solely because *"they have to"* LOL? It seems that only temperate species can hibernate, and tropical ones cannot... even if "they will have to", they will *never* be able to do that!

Here are the old debates, good readings for one to decide what he should do:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Is-Hibernation-Absolutely-Required#axzz23A139CfU
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Hibernation-for-Testudo#axzz23A0pSpZF
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-keep-hermanns-indoors-or-outdoors-for-winter#axzz23sgl7f3C
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread...from-the-Hermann-s-forum?pid=349193#pid349193
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Tort-not-wanting-to-hibernate#axzz239zJjPO7


EDIT: 

I cannot say for *indoor kept tortoises*- I suppose they are *weak* and I wouldn't try hibernation on them. I would rather consider them not fitting the main conditions for letting a tortoise to hibernate : HEALTHY and STRONG. 
Indoors ones can be _healthy_ in a way- i.e. no pathogen involved, good general state- but not *vigourous* enough to suddenly subject them to harsh hibernating conditions, like for a tough outdoor tortoise. They have to spend a whole season outdoors for that. 

Never kept healthy tortoises indoors, only fresh received ones, too late in the year to be left for "hardening" outdoors. These ones, and sick ones, *overwintered*.

*Elliott*, indeed we cannot see the results of paralell raising hibernated/non-hibernated siblings... if hibernated will live to 150, and the others "only" to 70, it would be irrelevant for us . 
Try to hibernate even hatchlings- not all, only 1/clutch or as many as you want. Courage ! That, if Peoria weather will allow a true hibernation.


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## Jacqui (Aug 18, 2012)

Eweezyfosheezy said:


> I think the only true way to tell if it shortens their lifespan or not is to get two groups of hatchlings that hatched around the same time and raise one without hibernation and one with hibernation. I doubt there is any short term effects besides less breeding activity in non hibernating russians. I dont think anyone knows if there is any long term effects (health wise) of not hibernating your russian tortoise unless they raised two different groups for dozens of years.



Very true, even then you would have to do many many hatchlings, not just two or four to come up with any sort of reliable information due to individual health issues including genetic ones. I also have not witnessed this "less breeding activity" you talk of. Here activity remained constant whether I hibernated all of them, part of them, just the females, or just the males. 





CactusVinnie said:


> I cannot say for *indoor kept tortoises*- I suppose they are *weak* and I wouldn't try hibernation on them. I would rather consider them not fitting the main conditions for letting a tortoise to hibernate : HEALTHY and STRONG.
> Indoors ones can be _healthy_ in a way- i.e. no pathogen involved, good general state- but not *vigourous* enough to suddenly subject them to harsh hibernating conditions, like for a tough outdoor tortoise. They have to spend a whole season outdoors for that.
> 
> Never kept healthy tortoises indoors, only fresh received ones, too late in the year to be left for "hardening" outdoors. These ones, and sick ones, *overwintered*.



I find it interesting, that you believe indoor raised tortoises may be "not vigorous" as those raise outside. Here I thought I was the only one who thinks we are "babying" our tortoises too much and perhaps causing them to slowly loose the natural abilities and strengths to survive.



I will say, I have in the past read some great reasoning for allowing turtles and tortoises to hibernate and they may all end up being the most valid, who knows. I am just going by what I see in the here and now. I see so many tortoises and turtles lost each year during hibernation, it greatly saddens me. Some of these are of course deaths that would have happened any how, some are human misjudgments and errors, and some are animals who either were hiding symptoms or not having more then just the start perhaps of disease. So some may have been able to have been saved, if they had been out and about where keepers could see problems as they started to happen. I have saw total beginners have no problem and also witnessed the opposite where experienced keepers, who also were experienced with hibernation/brumation, lost animals.

I think each keeper who chooses to keep any of the hibernating/brumating species, needs to read the research out there and make up their own mind if it is right for them and/or for their animals. There should be no shame for those who feel uncomfortable with going through this procedure for whatever their reason may be.


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## CactusVinnie (Aug 18, 2012)

Jacqui,

I think we are not exagerating- it is impossible for an animal kept indoors to be as fit and rugged as one subjected to sunlight, temperature swings etc. The hibernation took place in basically the same conditions, so I would be very affraid to put a "soft" tortoise in such conditions. I feel it most like a _test_, than a _routine_ procedure, as it feels for an outdoor tortoise. Maybe some will emerge OK, but I suspect that not all, for sure. This is one of the cases when I would say "weakened animal", hibernation delayed for the next winter. Not sick, but not fit.

Of course not shame when not ready for that! Better overwintering and learn; at least one will end with a live overwintered tortoise, than risking when not enough knowledge for doing that.
It is not about _taking chances_ with a tortoise, that would be condamnable. I am only advocating hibernation when all the conditions for that step are met. 
And if it's about an outdoor tortoise, things are very simple. When they enter hibernation by themselves, and you just needing to transfer them to controlled conditions, it seems even easier. 

In *my* opinion, there are two main questions:

1. Temperate tortoises need to ibernate?
*Yes*, although they maybe can live long enough to assist at your funeral even if they don't. Maybe, but maybe not.

2. How to prepare *a correct identified as temperate and healthy* tortoise for hibernation?
That can be done in a few ways, depending on each one's conditions. I was reading a lot of hibernating experiences before my first attempt, I was very tensioned. I was advised and got confident that I am doing it right. 
I was never at the point to change my mind: _"They WILL hibernate, since they do that by themselves, in harsher conditions. It's just about ME to be prepared, not them. They are, I am not, but I will."_ 
Luckily, it was OK. 

Bottom line: everyone should ASK! And everyone has to choose the answers from people that have done that, and to find a suitable variant for his conditions. Not jumping into without knowing, but also not fearing- asking and learning. I am sure that most keepers do that in other fields. It is the same.


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## Edna (Aug 18, 2012)

CactusVinnie said:


> Bottom line: everyone should ASK! _And everyone has to choose the answers from people that have done that, and to find a suitable variant for his conditions. Not jumping into without knowing, but also not fearing- asking and learning_. I am sure that most keepers do that in other fields. It is the same.



Well said!!


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## Vishnu2 (Aug 18, 2012)

There is something to be said regarding someone's opinions and I appreciate them all. Even though I don't always agree with them all.  That being said I am not sure why you would want to put an animal through being cold and going into a "natural" sleep just because that's what nature is what was provided for them so long ago. Why not take advantage of what nature now provides? Why not take the risk out of it all? Why take chances with a tortoises life just because of what was kosher years and years ago. I will ponder this. I am curious what Toosie Roll's mom feels. I was hoping she would add her 2 cents regarding this post since she owns a few herself. Or what Dmmj thinks, since he owns a few.


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## Jacqui (Aug 18, 2012)

I remember one member who had an extremely practical reason to do hibernation/brumation... simple economics.  If you have them sleeping: you do not have to spend money on electricity for heating and lights, create a good indoor enclosure, buy those lights which always seem to need replacing, or buy the food to feed them. It also is a time saver.


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## CactusVinnie (Aug 18, 2012)

*Vishnu*, 
in fact, in the past, I think "kosher" meant to keep tortoises indoors; only recently, some keepers broke that habit and started to follow a natural approach. That I suppose for the US, since in Europe (Britain especially) they were called "garden tortoises", meaning that they lived free year-round... hibernating by themselves. Well, these were mostly North African taxons, and not many survived British winters. 

The fact that we can now offer them "something else", it is not by far what you mean by "what nature now provides", since, obviously, it is not Nature that provides, but our will and mood. It beginned with us taking them from the place Nature provided for them, taking from them ALL that Nature provided for them and keeping them as we knew or wish. Quite a little gain, but we could change a lot- and it's not only about hibernation, that's only one factor, and for only a few species...

*Anthropomorphysing* the tortoise, it would indeed be sad and bone-chilling (sic!) to sit for a few months in dark, cold and not being able to move in a small space, underground or in hibernation quarters. It sounds like a horror movie: "Dark, cold... you can hide, but will you manage to get out?"... Ugly indeed... how can we do such things to our pets???
Good news: they are *reptiles*. They are fearless and sickly persistent. They don't know what being discouraged feels. They are equipped for that horror vacation, and that could be even beneficial. They don't know what fear of the dark is, or claustrophobia- even more, they even feel safe when burrowed, in tight contact with the burrow walls, and even waiting for that time, when watching the declining sun-angle and feel the chillier mornings. They did it for thousands of millenia, they are not bored yet and never will be. 

I know Dmmj, I don't know Toosie Roll's mom, but I believe you that she has knowledge. What I don't get, is _why you asked, since you were already kinda decided_ ?

Read the links, lots of points there. 


*Jacqui*,

I must admit that it is an important factor, not to be neglected !! That doesn't mean that I would overwinter my temperate tortoises if I would have fresh weeds at discretion during the winter; no, I would maybe started to keep tropicals, if other conditions would also be realisable- heat, room, UV etc...
For Terry, for instance, in sunny Texas, it is easy to overwinter- his tortoises can have some fun and basking outdoors even during winter, except cold waves... and weeds can be found easier. What if you live a little norther? Like me, or others? Yes, it is a big plus, thanks God for temperate tortoises !


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## Vishnu2 (Aug 18, 2012)

CactusVinnie, perhaps I decided AFTER reading everyone's post. Perhaps, your post helped me decide.  In all seriousness, I have not decided.. I am playing devils advocate which I believe everyone should do. It helps me make the best decisions in life. But, thank you for questioning my question. 

Jacqui, thanks for all your input. You have shed some serious light on this topic. I wanted to consider all things when choosing a Russian tortoise. I totally understand I am offering the next 50+ years of my life to this little guy/girl. It has been suggested to me that I should consider an egyptian tortoise since they don't require hibernation. Hrm.


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## CactusVinnie (Aug 18, 2012)

*Vishnu*, 

I can see that you prefer a non-hibernator, rather then overwintering a hibernating species? Choice wich I find quite wise, in fact . 

You can choose any tortoise *species* that has, in its habitat, at least 10*C for January, the coldest month. This is the average for April here (10-12*C), the month when tortoise emerge... we could consider that it is the coldest active month. The same temps for October, the last active month.

Well, that is not the same for cases like Hermanni, Boettgeri and Marginata- although some of their *populations* occur in Italy and Greece in places with, or more than 10*C, they also occur in much colder places. So, you should consider a *species*, not just *populations*, occuring in places where the _coldest_ January is 10*C, for all its areal.

You will find North-African taxons, including T. kleinmanni, perfectly fit in that cathegory. So, any African Graeca will do for you.


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## Vishnu2 (Aug 19, 2012)

Okay, Cactusvinnie.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Aug 24, 2012)

Vishnu2 said:


> Do you feel like Russians have to hibernate? *No species of tortoise has to hibernate. It's absolutely optional, and can actually be dangerous to your pet. Brumating tortoises, both wild and in captivity, have been mauled by rats, developed respiratory problems, gone blind from frostbite, etc. In the wild, we call it the cycle of life...in captivity it's simply tragic.
> 
> OTOH, by allowing them to remain awake, you can monitor their health daily, and correct any problems before they become life-threatening. And we can enjoy their company daily. *
> 
> ...



Hope this is helpful.


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## Vishnu2 (Aug 24, 2012)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> Vishnu2 said:
> 
> 
> > Do you feel like Russians have to hibernate? *No species of tortoise has to hibernate. It's absolutely optional, and can actually be dangerous to your pet. Brumating tortoises, both wild and in captivity, have been mauled by rats, developed respiratory problems, gone blind from frostbite, etc. In the wild, we call it the cycle of life...in captivity it's simply tragic.
> ...



VERY helpful, thank you.


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## stillframeband (Aug 27, 2012)

For whatever it's worth, I'm letting my box turtle decide on the whole issue; I'm too nervous about hibernating to force him to, but if he shows signs that he wants to then I'll take the knowledge on the subject I've managed to gather and give it a try (and probably post on here every 30mins making sure I'm doing it right!). As is, he comes indoors mid-September, and seems to enjoy being inside as much as outside; no drop in feeding, lethargy, ect. And, while this is probably anthropomorphising to a certain extent, it seems like he enjoys watching us in our 'human enclosure' (or probably figures that being visible = getting an extra worm every now and then)!


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## Terry Allan Hall (Aug 27, 2012)

stillframeband said:


> For whatever it's worth, I'm letting my box turtle decide on the whole issue; I'm too nervous about hibernating to force him to, but if he shows signs that he wants to then I'll take the knowledge on the subject I've managed to gather and give it a try (and probably post on here every 30mins making sure I'm doing it right!). As is, he comes indoors mid-September, and seems to enjoy being inside as much as outside; no drop in feeding, lethargy, ect. *And, while this is probably anthropomorphising to a certain extent, it seems like he enjoys watching us in our 'human enclosure' (or probably figures that being visible = getting an extra worm every now and then)! *



They're practical, like that! 

BTW, what part of Arkansas do you live in? I spent about 18 months in DeQueen, in Sevier County, in my sordid youth. 

Never could decide if that was a good thing or not...


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Aug 27, 2012)

Once we get a backyard, I'm going to try and keep our tortoises outside year-round, letting them brumate naturally in the winter. Hopefully that will be sometime in the next couple years.

Until then, I'd rather not hibernate them. However, last year I felt I had to, because they were trying to brumate in their pens at room temperature, which of course would burn through their fat reserves too quickly.

This year, I can already see that they are becoming less active again now as autumn approaches, just as they did last year. If that's all they do - become less active - then I will be content to feed them once or twice a week and let them stay buried the rest of the time.

However, if they fast again, then I will probably hibernate them indoors in a ventilated mini-fridge again. This time, though, I will do it for a much shorter period. Last year, I did it for 4 months. The female came out okay, but the male didn't fully brumate, so he lost a lot of weight and needed some TLC to recuperate (he's fine now). So, this year, if I have to hibernate them, I will only do it for 2 months.


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## stillframeband (Aug 28, 2012)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> stillframeband said:
> 
> 
> > For whatever it's worth, I'm letting my box turtle decide on the whole issue; I'm too nervous about hibernating to force him to, but if he shows signs that he wants to then I'll take the knowledge on the subject I've managed to gather and give it a try (and probably post on here every 30mins making sure I'm doing it right!). As is, he comes indoors mid-September, and seems to enjoy being inside as much as outside; no drop in feeding, lethargy, ect. *And, while this is probably anthropomorphising to a certain extent, it seems like he enjoys watching us in our 'human enclosure' (or probably figures that being visible = getting an extra worm every now and then)! *
> ...





Hot Springs...and I'm still undecided, too! 
I think DeQueen is maybe 3 hours from here...?


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## Terry Allan Hall (Aug 28, 2012)

stillframeband said:


> Terry Allan Hall said:
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> > stillframeband said:
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About 90 miles...drove between usually in about an hour-45 to two hours...

Ever go to the Gator Farm?


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## stillframeband (Aug 29, 2012)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> About 90 miles...drove between usually in about an hour-45 to two hours...
> 
> Ever go to the Gator Farm?



Haha, just this last weekend, actually!!  
One of the keepers showed a video of him getting bit during feeding time...think I'll stick to turtles!


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## TortoiseBoy1999 (Aug 29, 2012)

My Russian is kept inside (for now) but will probably hibernate when I get her outside


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## Eweezyfosheezy (Aug 29, 2012)

TortoiseBoy1999 said:


> My Russian is kept inside (for now) but will probably hibernate when I get her outside



I dont think you should hibernate this year. I would put your tortoise outdoors when your outside enclosure is made this year but pull her in once the temps start getting pretty cool (sometime in November most likely). I think once spring comes around next year you can keep your russian outdoors for the rest of her life.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Aug 29, 2012)

stillframeband said:


> Terry Allan Hall said:
> 
> 
> > About 90 miles...drove between usually in about an hour-45 to two hours...
> ...



Last time I visited my friends in DeQueen, we slid by the Gator Farm...that one huge gator ("Methuselah"? "Goliath?") was looking even bigger than I recall...my wife was somewhere between impressed and just scared s***less!


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## stillframeband (Aug 30, 2012)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> stillframeband said:
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> > Terry Allan Hall said:
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I wonder if that's the one they have 'stuffed' hanging in the lobby...?

They've got some pretty impressive ones there now, and the rest make up for size in quantity! We took my 15mo old son, so he could pet the deer and goats...and then of course while we're there, dad gets to watch the alligators get fed! 

He actually seemed pretty interested in that, too, so I'll call it win-win all the way around!


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## Terry Allan Hall (Aug 30, 2012)

stillframeband said:


> Terry Allan Hall said:
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> > stillframeband said:
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*Sounds like a fun-filled day for all...that's DEFINITELY the best kind! *


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