# Mixing breed frowned upon?



## AnitaMarie (Mar 26, 2014)

I've read several times that mixing breeds of tortoises for mating is highly frowned upon? I was wondering how everyone else feels about it. Have you ever done it? Do you own a mixed breed? Also, can you mix any type toroise?


----------



## Yvonne G (Mar 26, 2014)

We've talked about this a lot here on the Forum. Here's a link to the last thread:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-85349.html

If you want to read more threads on the subject, you can do a search for either "Hybrid" "Cross-breeding" "Inter-species breeding" There are many, many threads on the subject.


To answer your question, tortoises aren't breeds, like dogs or cats, but rather species. This means that you're not breeding a collie to a German short hair, but rather an elephant to a camel. Different species. 

There is some inter-species breeding that occurs, and no one knows if the offspring are fertile or not. But the further away from the genus you get, the less chance there is of successful breeding.

For example, the different species of Testudo probably would interbreed, as will the Red footed and Yellow footed. There have been instances of leopard/sulcata.

But read the link and you can see our stance on the subject.


----------



## Dorrie Siu (Mar 26, 2014)

I think that if breeding hybrids is done, it thins out the purity of the species. Eventually we would loose it.


----------



## HJ1983 (Mar 26, 2014)

Nature has a way of preventing this. You can't just mix two species and get a hybrid. There are many elements involved. Look up prezygotic one postzygotic barriers. If they do successfully mate eggs will not be viable (postzygotic barrier) and neither will the offspring (same reason). And if you do happen to successfully make a hybrid of two species that species will be sterile. (again postzygotic barrier) Think of mules. Horses and donkeys are two different species who can mate. However mules are sterile. Mules cannot produce viable offspring which is why they are not a species. Just a hybrid.


----------



## EricIvins (Mar 26, 2014)

HJ1983 said:


> Nature has a way of preventing this. You can't just mix two species and get a hybrid. There are many elements involved. Look up prezygotic one postzygotic barriers. If they do successfully mate eggs will not be viable (postzygotic barrier) and neither will the offspring (same reason). And if you do happen to successfully make a hybrid of two species that species will be sterile. (again postzygotic barrier) Think of mules. Horses and donkeys are two different species who can mate. However mules are sterile. Mules cannot produce viable offspring which is why they are not a species. Just a hybrid.



Ever watch Jurassic Park?

Everything you have posted does not hold true for 98% of Reptile hybrids man has created...


----------



## HJ1983 (Mar 26, 2014)

EricIvins said:


> HJ1983 said:
> 
> 
> > Nature has a way of preventing this. You can't just mix two species and get a hybrid. There are many elements involved. Look up prezygotic one postzygotic barriers. If they do successfully mate eggs will not be viable (postzygotic barrier) and neither will the offspring (same reason). And if you do happen to successfully make a hybrid of two species that species will be sterile. (again postzygotic barrier) Think of mules. Horses and donkeys are two different species who can mate. However mules are sterile. Mules cannot produce viable offspring which is why they are not a species. Just a hybrid.
> ...



I'm going by what I learned in Biology. And as for those "hybrids" are they hybrids of the same species that are just two different colors? Because that has to do with alleles and not speciation. I am going by Biological terms. And Jurassic Park while a great movie isn't a reputable reference in science. You can mix a ball python that has one trait with a ball python with another trait and get beautiful animals. However I have not seen an anaconda-ball python hybrid.


Everything I posted is true. Look up the biological term for hybrid. It's not what you mean.


----------



## EricIvins (Mar 26, 2014)

HJ1983 said:


> EricIvins said:
> 
> 
> > HJ1983 said:
> ...





Well, you can start with Aspidites Ramsayi/Python Regius Hybrids, or Aspidites Ramsayi/Morelia Spilota SSP. Since we are on a Chelonian forum, how about Cuora Serrata? Which is a wild hybrid of Cuora/Pyxidea Mohoutii and Cuora Galbinifrons. Oh, what about Mauremys Ivernsoni, a hybrid of Cuora Trifasciata and Mauremys Mutica?

I know, not much of a stretch, but there are also fertile Python Regius/Python Anchietae hybrids, along with Python M. Bivattus/Python Regius hybrids.

Many of the Asian "Ratsnakes" can be hybridized, along with ALL of the North American Colubrids...

Do I need to post more? There are many more out there...


----------



## T33's Torts (Mar 26, 2014)

Guys, I would highly recommend you don't begin another debate. Just review the already made one, and end your night well. Okay?


----------



## dds7155 (Mar 26, 2014)

I disliked it with macaws and other parrots and feel the same way about people doing it with tortoises,, i just don't see the sense in it,,,


----------



## HJ1983 (Mar 26, 2014)

EricIvins said:


> HJ1983 said:
> 
> 
> > EricIvins said:
> ...





So if these hybrids can have viable offspring they aren't technically a hybrid. There are many elements to this. I didn't say or mean to say that you're wrong. But you're implying that I am wrong and I don't think I've said anything that isn't true. I'm really not trying to start a debate here my friend. I was answering the original question.


----------



## N2TORTS (Mar 26, 2014)

Eric is very correct on this ....and very well educated in this field! For the OP....here an example taken on a very short "Science Model Theory " for some explanation on this subject.
"Why can some interbreeding species produce fertile offspring, while othersâ€”like horses and donkeysâ€”cannot?" "Because they have more recent common ancestry. When geographical barriersâ€”such as rising sea levels or retracting ice floesâ€”separate populations, they may develop genetic, physiological, or behavioral differences; changes in chromosome structure or number; differently shaped genitalia; or incompatible mating times and ritualsâ€”any of which can prevent successful reproduction. Take horses and donkeys, which probably diverged about 2.4 million years ago. Horses have 64 chromosomes, while donkeys have 62, and when they mate, their chromosomes don't pair up properly, inhibiting meiosis in their offspring. As a result, mules are sterile. Brown bears and polar bears, by contrast, evolved from the same ancestor only about 150,000 years agoâ€”a relatively brief periodâ€”and have not developed significant genetic differences. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2010/05/pizzly_bears.html


Now for actual proof ....off Hybrids in Tortoises...Here an example of a Leopard X Sulcutta cross.






I know longer own these animals , although I wish I still did....just to see their development later in life. 
As far as anyone producing off spring from a Hybrid , I have not myself met anyone ..."yet", but I believe it is VERY possible. 
JD~


----------



## HJ1983 (Mar 26, 2014)

tffnytorts said:


> Guys, I would highly recommend you don't begin another debate. Just review the already made one, and end your night well. Okay?



Noted.


----------



## T33's Torts (Mar 26, 2014)

*Re: RE: Mixing breed frowned upon?*



HJ1983 said:


> tffnytorts said:
> 
> 
> > Guys, I would highly recommend you don't begin another debate. Just review the already made one, and end your night well. Okay?
> ...



Thanks. I just hate to see sane threads get closed because of "one thing leading to another" and all of a sudden people are talking religion.


----------



## N2TORTS (Mar 26, 2014)

tffnytorts said:


> HJ1983 said:
> 
> 
> > tffnytorts said:
> ...



ha ha ha ... We could do that too!


----------



## jaizei (Mar 27, 2014)

tffnytorts said:


> Guys, I would highly recommend you don't begin another debate. Just review the already made one, and end your night well. Okay?



I guess we should just close the forum down to new posts? We've probably discussed just about every topic by now. It's not like there are new members every day that might want to participate. 

Other than moderators, no one on this forum is really obligated to read any thread. If you don't like a topic or a debate, there are plenty of other threads to read.


----------



## Dorrie Siu (Mar 29, 2014)

I don't think moderators are obligated either. They can't possibly read every single thread or post on here. They are volunteers, it would take up their whole day! 

In regards to the Leopard/Sulcutta: How big will it get?


----------

