# Deadly water dish



## Maggie3fan (Nov 15, 2020)

I realize that I am not an expert, however, I HAVE "headstarted" several hundred Sulcata hatchlings for their first year. I did the same thing when my sister had Gopherus agassizii dumped on her, I headstarted several hundred of them also. I did live in Calif then. Also that was before the 'net, so we didn't know stuff then like we do now. I will repeat, I am not any expert, but I did have these great groups of hatchlings. Actually, creeps of tortoises.
So while there were a very few deaths, we still raised some nice babies. 

@Tom 
But you have declared these very same water dishes that I used for freakin years without a problem "death traps"? Was I just lucky that nobody drowned? What is so bad about them? Can't have been that many deaths, as even tho you say they are bad, most other keepers simply parrot your words. Did we have an epidemic of drownings and somehow I didn't hear about these deaths? 

Your quote...
_Those water bowls are great for snakes and lizards, but they are literally death traps for tortoises. You need to remove that ASAP and replace it with a terra cotta saucer sunk into the substrate._

So there's my question, why are they bad? Saucers have straight sides, that makes them better? It's not a life threatening thing with me, I'm just curious


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## Tom (Nov 15, 2020)

Over the years we've seen two members here walk in and find their tortoise upside down, stuck and still alive in those. One member found their tortoise upside down and dead. I'll bet your sister remembers these threads. I've got no idea how to go back and find these threads.

In person, I've met several people who've had the same thing happen. Both close calls and dead tortoises.

Here is the best way I can demonstrate this: Get one of those ramped bowls and get a Hot Wheels type toy car. I'm betting you've got something like that laying around with a NASCAR paint job.  Keep all for wheels on the ground and drive it in and out of that bowl. Drive it in and out of the side of the bowl too. See the problem? Now take the same car and drive it in and out of a terra cotta saucer sunk into the substrate. See the difference?


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## Maro2Bear (Nov 15, 2020)

They might not be “DEATH TRAPS” but the high sides (if not buried down level with the substrate) make it much harder for youngsters to locate water, let alone drink from it. Id say if these dishes were buried down into the substrate they would probably be “ok”. Most ppl don’t. Since @Tom ’s advice is pretty spot-on based on his years of experience & detailed Sully/Leopard care guide ppl will emulate his pretty successful set-ups. Id say the higher water bowls also cause hatchlings to tip over and end up on their backs On the substrate too. Larger torts, not so much.


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## Maggie3fan (Nov 15, 2020)

I am 75 years old and live alone. Why would I have little cars???


My children are adults, my grandkids are adults and my great grand kids are too young...


OK, so take my Hot Wheels out of the picture, and in the above photo there are rocks and marbles in the water part of the dish. I'm not too much of an idiot so I understood why it's called a death trap, but that's how I was taught how to utilize that type dish. Nobody under my watch drown. Supposed to use rocks and marbles


However, I posted a thread just before I went to Y's house, of a box turtle that I found on her back directly under a CHE after falling off the top of a log hide. She was so hot I can't believe she didn't catch fire. Yet nobody raises a fuss about how dangerous log hides are. I have had numerous small torts and box turtles end up on their back, not all died but still...
Anyhow thanks guys


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## Maro2Bear (Nov 15, 2020)

maggie3fan said:


> I am 75 years old and live alone. Why would I have little cars???
> View attachment 311086
> 
> My children are adults, my grandkids are adults and my great grand kids are too young...
> ...



I agree with the use of those WAY OVER-PRICED log hides too. Ive never used one for two reasons - way over-priced, & too many videos & comments of torts climbing & flipping!


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## Yvonne G (Nov 15, 2020)

Ok, Maggie, here's the deal. Tortoises live in a hard body shell, and when they climb up the straight side inside that waterer (just because the ramp is there doesn't mean the baby is going to use it) they get over balanced, or straight up an down, and sometimes tip over backwards into the water. A plant saucer has slanted sides, so when they climb out they don't get straight up and down

(Loved the train wreck!)


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## Yossarian (Nov 15, 2020)

Yvonne G said:


> Ok, Maggie, here's the deal. Tortoises live in a hard body shell, and when they climb up the straight side inside that waterer (just because the ramp is there doesn't mean the baby is going to use it) they get over balanced, or straight up an down, and sometimes tip over backwards into the water. A plant saucer has slanted sides, so when they climb out they don't get straight up and down
> 
> (Loved the train wreck!)



This description is as good as video to any tort owner. To argue that these dishes do not pose a risk to small torts is irresponsible and a bit trollish, especially when the OP acknowledges the use of modifications (rocks and marbles) to supposedly make the dish safer (im skeptical). OP clearly knows there is a risk, and whether or not the rocks and marbles mitigate the risk, they are not employed regularly by the lost souls that post on reddit every day, in fact I dont think I have ever seen a picture of those water dishes with other objects in them. 

And @maggie3fan most of us only have one tort, if mine died in its water dish because it got turned over as described above, I would call that a death trap, even if it is 1 in a 1000 or less.


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## Maggie3fan (Nov 15, 2020)

Well, evidently I missed making my point. Years ago before the Internet my sister operated a large turtle and tortoise rescue, and belonged to tort clubs and the like. After I was retired I started helping her. So back in the day before we actually realized there was a better way of keeping chelonia, I learned from her and her tortoise friends. They taught me that those water dishes had the potential to be dangerous, so marbles and small rocks.added to the water part gave the animal a little more ability to save itself from drowning. I was not in the least way saying those dishes were safe. What I am saying is that with marbles and rocks added to the dish helped. Actually, I can be a bit more than trollish in saying if a keeper has numerous turtles and tortoises and one dies is that any less dramatic than a keeper with one and it dies??? I was not saying those dishes are not dangerous, I was saying that there are ways to stop that horrible mayhem, and small rocks help. It's that simple. I'm sorry you made so much more than there was. And the insults made it ever so pointed. Actually, I have never been called trollish, so thanks for that


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## Relic (Nov 15, 2020)

So to summarize all the above...they're dangerous if you've lost your marbles....got it! ;-)


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## ArmadilloPup (Nov 15, 2020)

@Yossarian has a point. Normal folks don't seem to know that they need to add rocks. The main reason that I prefer the terracotta is that you can buy them in _ridiculoushuge_ size for less than the $20 that these bowls cost. But it's understandable that rescues must work with what they've got.

We retired ours as a wildlife bowl. We set it out for squirrels, but the toads love it too


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## Tom (Nov 15, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> ... in fact I dont think I have ever seen a picture of those water dishes with other objects in them.


Me neither.


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## Maggie3fan (Nov 16, 2020)

Tom said:


> Me neither.


So, frankly, the fact that neither of you saw water dishes with little rocks etc in them means nothing. We do travel in different circles, I never heard of so many drownings in those dishes, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen. The keeper with one tortoise who drowns, does then believe that water dish is a death trap; on the other hand, I have head started numerous clutches over the years, did use the death trap water dish and never had a drowning. So by that experience and the physical evidence, I would say that one keeper is inept. His fault the animal drowned, and obviously I, without a drowning among the many hatchlings I head started am the better keeper. BS 
I think what I am getting at is; in this Internet savvy world great advice is given freely there's no doubt about that. But you still haven't shown me actual evidence that the dishes have no redeeming value. Sorry Tom, just because you say it is so, does not make it so. I have been involved with turtles and tortoises for a lotta years now, do you really think I didn't know about that dish??? Why else would I go to all the fuss to find marbles and rocks?


Armadillogroomer said:


> @Yossarian has a point. Normal folks don't seem to know that they need to add rocks. The main reason that I prefer the terracotta is that you can buy them in _ridiculoushuge_ size for less than the $20 that these bowls cost. But it's understandable that rescues must work with what they've got.
> 
> We retired ours as a wildlife bowl. We set it out for squirrels, but the toads love it too


Actually, I retired my bowls as well. Mostly because I don't keep smaller tortoises anymore and I use a paint roller pan in most of my indoor habitats and Frisbee's in the others.


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## Ink (Nov 16, 2020)

I used that in my outside enclosure with my leopard. Until, one morning I put him outside in the enclosure, I lifted the dish up to clean it and OMG there was a baby copperhead snake under it. I carefully got my tortoise out and went inside. That was the last time I used that dish!? (Yes yellow belly by the tail)


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## Tom (Nov 16, 2020)

maggie3fan said:


> Sorry Tom, just because you say it is so, does not make it so.


The fact that it happens on a regular basis makes it so. Me saying it is so is just pointing out facts in an effort to be helpful to people and warn them before they find their tortoise upside down in one of these tortoise death traps.

And yes, you were just lucky that it didn't happen to you. Just like the people who still use and advocate sand soil mixtures for tortoises. Just like the people still using coil bulbs and proclaiming they've been using them for years and they've had no problem. Where's my evidence?


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## succulentsandsunshine (Nov 18, 2020)

I got one of the bowls before finding this forum. I put some flat tiles (I already had them at home) in mine that come up nearly to the sides. Basically it makes it extremely shallow. I like the look of the terra cotta better though too. But figured may as well go with what I've got at the moment.


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## Maro2Bear (Nov 18, 2020)

succulentsandsunshine said:


> I got one of the bowls before finding this forum. I put some flat tiles (I already had them at home) in mine that come up nearly to the sides. Basically it makes it extremely shallow. I like the look of the terra cotta better though too. But figured may as well go with what I've got at the moment.
> 
> View attachment 311328



I think you might have over done it with the stones here. You still want to provide water and space. Can’t quite tell, but is your dish sunken down into the substrate? Thats always a plus. Much easier for torts to walk over and sink their head (and hard-shelled bodies) down into a dish. 

Maybe it’s just the clarity of your water & the overhead aspect. 
good luck.


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## Chefdenoel10 (Nov 18, 2020)

maggie3fan said:


> I am 75 years old and live alone. Why would I have little cars???
> View attachment 311086
> 
> My children are adults, my grandkids are adults and my great grand kids are too young...
> ...



LOVE the fed ex truck! ?


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## Learning123 (Nov 19, 2020)

maggie3fan said:


> I realize that I am not an expert, however, I HAVE "headstarted" several hundred Sulcata hatchlings for their first year. I did the same thing when my sister had Gopherus agassizii dumped on her, I headstarted several hundred of them also. I did live in Calif then. Also that was before the 'net, so we didn't know stuff then like we do now. I will repeat, I am not any expert, but I did have these great groups of hatchlings. Actually, creeps of tortoises.
> So while there were a very few deaths, we still raised some nice babies.
> 
> @Tom
> ...


Some people don't have common sense and a lot of uneducated (in the species) people buy tortoises (Newby myself). But if by straying people away from the bowls may save a life why not? On top of theyll be saving money. I like my potting dish myself.


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## wellington (Nov 19, 2020)

If something could potentially be a death trap, then why not steer people away from using it. If they already have it and can't return it, then I and many others will suggest stones. We have even suggested stones for the saucers as people have had their torts flip onto their backs in them too. 
Many have suggested to get rid of any hides that can be climbed also. 
Most items sold in pet stores are a waste of money and with some thinking outside the box, can be replaced with much safer, cheaper items. 

Btw, I love the cars pics, too funny


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## TammyJ (Nov 19, 2020)

Those marbles and stones in the water bowl are too smooth.
Just kidding...kinda.
When my torts were small, I made sure to have some rough stones in the water pool so they could get a grip and flip back over if they overturned, but they never did that I knew of.
Now they are tall, and all the stones are small.......!


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## TammyJ (Nov 19, 2020)

succulentsandsunshine said:


> I got one of the bowls before finding this forum. I put some flat tiles (I already had them at home) in mine that come up nearly to the sides. Basically it makes it extremely shallow. I like the look of the terra cotta better though too. But figured may as well go with what I've got at the moment.
> 
> View attachment 311328


What happened to my pool water?


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## Maggie3fan (Nov 19, 2020)

Maro2Bear said:


> I think you might have over done it with the stones here. You still want to provide water and space. Can’t quite tell, but is your dish sunken down into the substrate? Thats always a plus. Much easier for torts to walk over and sink their head (and hard-shelled bodies) down into a dish.
> 
> Maybe it’s just the clarity of your water & the overhead aspect.
> good luck.


OK, I'm gonna stick my neck out here...I applaud your use of the flat stones, and I certainly understand why you did that...but the tortoise needs to be able to soak and put it's head under the water and I don't see how that is possible the way you have it, and a close look at it's carapace shows an extremely dry looking carapace, with the beginnings of pyramids. The water should be a little above the 'bridge' where the plastron and carapace meet. I don't mean any disrespect and you can tell me to go fly a kite but I'm just saying what I see...if I am wrong some expert will point that out...?


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## succulentsandsunshine (Nov 20, 2020)

maggie3fan said:


> The water should be a little above the 'bridge' where the plastron and carapace meet. I don't mean any disrespect and you can tell me to go fly a kite but I'm just saying what I see...if I am wrong some expert will point that out...?



You're totally right! So the stone in there is pretty "holey" so he can grip it pretty well. It is hard to see from the photo, but it does have some depth still.

His shell is getting dry. We are in the process of building a closed enclosure for him, but it's taking longer than expected ? We are giving him daily soaks and constantly spraying water in the current setup and keeping the substrate damp. I'm hoping his new home will be finished next week ?

And I definitely appreciate the feedback! I love that everyone here is so willing to help!


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## Blastoise (Nov 23, 2020)

I think the water level is more important than the dish. You gotta base the water level on the size of the tortoise to reduce chances of flipping and drowning.


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## Tom (Nov 23, 2020)

Blastoise said:


> I think the water level is more important than the dish. You gotta base the water level on the size of the tortoise to reduce chances of flipping and drowning.


The depth of the water has nothing to do with tortoises flipping in these bowls with tall vertical sides.


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## Faygen (Jan 13, 2021)

Never had a problem with using these types of dishes. I've had 2 ( broke one on the sink when washing it) I do prefer the stone type one over the resin though just cause there is more grip for their feet


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## Maggie3fan (Jan 13, 2021)

Blastoise said:


> I think the water level is more important than the dish. You gotta base the water level on the size of the tortoise to reduce chances of flipping and drowning.



That is why I said fill the water up to the 'bridge' on his shell, that's where the bottom shell (plastron) meets the top shell (carapace)


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## Maggie3fan (Jan 13, 2021)

Faygen said:


> Never had a problem with using these types of dishes. I've had 2 ( broke one on the sink when washing it) I do prefer the stone type one over the resin though just cause there is more grip for their feet



Frankly in almost 20 years of keeping turtles and tortoises and using that very same water dish, I have never drown a chelonian. I only stopped using them when I stopping having clutches from my sister. I have never had a bad experience with them.
*HOWEVER*...my sister and numerous experienced keepers here on TFO have. So even tho I haven't, I'm not taking any chances. And when my sis is so emphatic on how dangerous they are, I listen


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## Faygen (Jan 13, 2021)

maggie3fan said:


> Frankly in almost 20 years of keeping turtles and tortoises and using that very same water dish, I have never drown a chelonian. I only stopped using them when I stopping having clutches from my sister. I have never had a bad experience with them.
> *HOWEVER*...my sister and numerous experienced keepers here on TFO have. So even tho I haven't, I'm not taking any chances. And when my sis is so emphatic on how dangerous they are, I listen



I had more trouble with flipping over in a plant pot dish like what everyone keeps suggesting and not once with these. as long as they are properly sunk into the substrate.


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## Maggie3fan (Jan 13, 2021)

Faygen said:


> I had more trouble with flipping over in a plant pot dish like what everyone keeps suggesting and not once with these. as long as they are properly sunk into the substrate.



Of course that's what I said too, but their point of contention is the tall straight inside sides. The tort tries to turn around in a corner, or is just trying to climb out, and the tall walls tip him over. I can see it happening actually, so if I had small torts I would not use those dishes again. Just sayin


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## MEEJogja (Jan 21, 2021)

maggie3fan said:


> However, I posted a thread just before I went to Y's house, of a box turtle that I found on her back directly under a CHE after falling off the top of a log hide. She was so hot I can't believe she didn't catch fire.



I grew up in the middle east and we kept tortoises throughout my childhood. A memory that will haunt me forever is finding one, not one hour after an incident where he/she had tried to climb down a small step (for the size of tortoise) at a dodgy angle and flipped. It was a 50c (122f) day and the poor little guy was effectively mummified. It was a step that they traversed both ways all the time. 

Having something several times the height of your baby tort which they can climb up and potentially fall off is terrifying. They can be very clumsy at the best of times.


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## Relic (Jan 21, 2021)

Tortoises, as well as most box turtles, are rather deliberate in their movements. It doesn't mean they can't or won't make a careless maneuver, but they exhibit a bit more restraint in traversing the terrain. On the other hand, water turtles are the Evel Knievels of the chelonians, launching themselves off high places without a care in the world, probably assuming there is water below them. If you placed a box turtle and a red eared slider on the edge of The Empire State Building, the turtle would be smashed on the street below in mere seconds, while the box turtle would carefully walk the perimeter looking for a safe exit point. Fascinating creatures...


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## MEEJogja (Jan 21, 2021)

Relic said:


> Tortoises, as well as most box turtles, are rather deliberate in their movements. It doesn't mean they can't or won't make a careless maneuver, but they exhibit a bit more restraint in traversing the terrain. On the other hand, water turtles are the Evel Knievels of the chelonians, launching themselves off high places without a care in the world, probably assuming there is water below them. If you placed a box turtle and a red eared slider on the edge of The Empire State Building, the turtle would be smashed on the street below in mere seconds, while the box turtle would carefully walk the perimeter looking for a safe exit point. Fascinating creatures...



Maybe I am in a certain mindset after seeing my Emys, just today: get lodged in a gap that he would clearly not fit in... 3 times and wedge himself into another gap which he barely could, but decided he needed to turn around before leaving, having to go nearly vertical to do so. I also witnessed him not seeing any way to the other side of the enclosure than going straight over every obstacle in his way, leaving a smearing of pepaya in his wake. 

I hope and assume they are better with heights than special awareness. You can't live 85 years traversing a jungle, if you topple onto your back the first time you encounter a fallen branch.


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## bonsai tortoise (Jan 21, 2021)

I use the water dish from the original OP for juveniles above 4”. Works fine. No issues for years. But honestly the only reason I use it is because I have it and it fits nicely into their enclosures; not that I’m married to it. For everything else I use plant saucers with the exception of “fresh” hatchlings. The only tortoises I’ve lost to drowning was a fresh hatchling and ironically it was upside down in a small 4” terracotta plant saucer. Therefore I give them no water dish until they get over 2”. To get them hydrated I soak them daily and also mist their food. Just goes to show that any water dish is a potential death trap. This is how I’ve done it going on 15 years and it works well.


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## Tom (Jan 21, 2021)

Faygen said:


> Never had a problem with using these types of dishes. I've had 2 ( broke one on the sink when washing it) I do prefer the stone type one over the resin though just cause there is more grip for their feet


You haven't yet... Give it time.


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## Faygen (Jan 24, 2021)

maggie3fan said:


> Of course that's what I said too, but their point of contention is the tall straight inside sides. The tort tries to turn around in a corner, or is just trying to climb out, and the tall walls tip him over. I can see it happening actually, so if I had small torts I would not use those dishes again. Just sayin


I've never had a baby tort but I doubt id use anything I use for George cause id be scared of them falling off everything, Although when I've looked properly I don't even have this dish I have something similar but its much shorter sides think its marketed as a food bowl but its about as deep as a plant dish


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## Space-Age-Spring (Jul 12, 2021)

Quite honestly, I think this whole issue is absurd. I enjoy the idea of a tortoise in a cool bowl just jamming, Grooving in that thing. What a champ.

Latitude: -30.11403, Longitude: -62.62828


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## Tom (Jul 12, 2021)

Space-Age-Spring said:


> Quite honestly, I think this whole issue is absurd. I enjoy the idea of a tortoise in a cool bowl just jamming, Grooving in that thing. What a champ.
> 
> Latitude: -30.11403, Longitude: -62.62828


Finding a tortoise upside down and dead is not absurd. Its sad. Its tragic. And its easily prevented by using the correct water bowl.


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## Space-Age-Spring (Jul 12, 2021)

Tom said:


> Finding a tortoise upside down and dead is not absurd. Its sad. Its tragic. And its easily prevented by using the correct water bowl.


You know what? You're absolutely right. I respect you a lot, and I don't wanna disappoint you. I love my tortoise, Dougie. xxx


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## Chefdenoel10 (Jul 12, 2021)

Space-Age-Spring said:


> You know what? You're absolutely right. I respect you a lot, and I don't wanna disappoint you. I love my tortoise, Dougie, and I want to see their puppies live a long life with their parent. I feel real, warm tears stream down my face when I think of Dougiel onto Dougie. He cries too. I'm so sorry...



Pictures please of you and Dougie.


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