# Tortoise Breeding Ethics



## Team Gomberg (Oct 6, 2012)

Dog breeding ethics are a huge debate. 
Is it the same with tortoise breeding?????

Example:
There are many different views people have on breeding dogs. Who should, why should, when should..etc.

1- I like my dog and want to have a puppy from him/her to keep after my dog passes away. So I will breed him/her for a litter.

2- My dog is a good dog and I want my family to experience the "miracle of life" so we'll breed him/her.

3- I am tight financially and selling puppies could really help with bills. Plus my dog is super sweet and I'm sure the puppies will get good homes. Let's breed him/her.

4- Puppy mills/hoarders who use pet dog breeding as their form of business/income.

Many in the dog world refer to these scenarios as Backyard Breeding (BYB) and it is HIGHLY controversial.

5- People enter their registered dogs into dog shows. These shows are to judge breeding stock. A dog receives a CH. title, has a series of health screens and then an appropriate mate is chosen. A mating is planned and a litter birthed ALL for the purpose of bettering the breed. Some pups go to homes as future show prospects to continue this cycle, others are sold with limited registration and spay/neuter contracts to be wonderful well bred pets.

I personally am in the 5th category. Some of you may be also, some may be in the other categories or even in ones I failed to mention.

My question is this, is there this same controversy in breeding tortoises? I can't yet figure it out? If some person gets a tortoise from CL or a pet store and says hey I wanna breed it, does everyone cheer them on and say "OK! Here's how!" ? Or do people encourage tortoise breeding to be left to those that are passionate about the species and desire to increase their tortoise knowledge to share with others? 

I have no opinion yet on this because I'm still learning about the tort world and honestly, it confuses me! But having had a past with such a strong belief in dog breeding ethics it makes me wonder if this controversy exists here?? 

*disclaimer* 
I think ALL dogs whether pure bred, from champion pedigrees, mutts at the pound, accidental breeding, BYB and even puppy mill purchases can be amazing wonderful dogs! They can be beautiful, sweet and enrich their owners lives. So for the record I am never against how wonderful a dog can be once it is bred and alive and here...but I definitely think there should be more spay/neuters and better reasons to have puppies than most of the reasons given.

So back to the question.. 

Are there tortoise breeding ethics??


----------



## DrewsLife727 (Oct 7, 2012)

Good question! I can't wait to hear answers from more knowledge members of the form


----------



## Arizona Sulcata (Oct 7, 2012)

I say yes to Tortoise breeding ethics to a point. I'm a breeder and I 100% support breeding tortoises so we can all share the passion and learn about these amazing creatures.

I however am not a fan of cross breeding species. This can cause things to get messy and destroy the purity if it all. Just my opinion...


----------



## shellysmom (Oct 7, 2012)

There are definitely debatable issues surrounding tortoise breeders. There are good responsible breeders, questionable backyard breeders, and I suspect there's a "tortie mill" facility in Port Richey, FL. I, personally, take issue with breeders who bring tortoises into the world and then sell their animals to idiots without so much as a simple explanation in how to care for it. For example, if you look at all of the large sulcatas for rehoming on Craig's List, you can get a sense of what I'm talking about. I have a feeling a lot of the people who originally purchased these animals from pet stores or questionable breeders, they were neither told by the seller that the tortoises would get to be 150lbs, nor did they do any simple research to find out. The sulcata's unmanageable adult size seems to be the main reason they are relinquished more often than other tortoise species, so it probably was not the best idea for soooo many people to jump on the sulcata breeding bandwagon. On the flip side, there are definitely beneficial reasons for breeding animals whose wild populations are decreasing. If you look at places like Kelly Hull's Tortoise Sanctuary, or the Turtle Survival Alliance, this type of conscientious breeding may one day save endangered species from extinction, and that is absolutely amazing.


----------



## Laurie (Oct 7, 2012)

I have read a number of posts from other forums and this forum as well where someone has newly acquired a tortoise and right away jump to the breeding idea. Sometimes I'm shocked at the encouragement and advice that is given. I'm certainly not against tortoise breeding, however, I don't agree that it should be attempted without making an effort to be sure you can properly care for these animals. 

It's obvious when someone has not made any effort to learn about the animals in their care. I also find it upsetting when advice is given on how to breed these animals when it's apparent the person doesn't have the time,knowledge or money to take care of them. What will happen to the hatchlings of these tortoises, if they're lucky enough to succeed?


----------



## Edna (Oct 7, 2012)

I'm going to jump back to your assertions about dog breeding. Three points:
1. Dogs that are bred for dog shows, even dogs that win at dog shows and earn their CH, can and often do have genetic problems that will impact their own long-term health and that of their offspring.
2. Dog registries such as the AKC are for-profit entities and do not have canine health and welfare as their primary objective.
3. Dogs with superior confirmation and healthy genetics can and DO occur in "BYB" litters.


----------



## wellington (Oct 7, 2012)

I have a very strong feeling about the dog breeding. Stated my thoughts before on a different thread last year. I would make breeders pay $200.00 to 500.00 a year license fee to breed dogs. Get rid of all the people breeding for the reasons you stated, except #5. It would also eliminate bad breeders that do it only for profit, but fit under #5. I was a dog breeder and also showed them. I didn't breed for profit. I lost lots of money, good breeders don't make money or very little. I bred for the love of the breed and to help rectify all the health problems they got from trying to save the breed from extinction. Good breeders, also don't breed if the dog has genetic problems they know about. Good breeders also don't breed if they don't know if they can sell their pups or at least have the means to house and care for them themselves. The same should go for tortoise breeding. If you don't have the knowledge, money and room to properly care for and house them if they don't sell, then you have no business breeding. Whether, dogs, cats, tortoises or any other animal. I also don't agree in cross breeding in any species. (Yes I know how 99% of the breeds we have got here) I would love to get back into showing and breeding dogs again. I have the means, but don't have the room. I would pay any license fee to do so. If you can't afford the fee, you probably can't afford to breed. I care more about the animal, then any persons rights to breed. So, if you can't afford to give the best care available and don't have the room to house the ones you can't sell, then I feel you shouldn't breed.


----------



## Wondering4toolong (Oct 7, 2012)

Edna said:


> I'm going to jump back to your assertions about dog breeding. Three points:
> 1. Dogs that are bred for dog shows, even dogs that win at dog shows and earn their CH, can and often do have genetic problems that will impact their own long-term health and that of their offspring.
> 2. Dog registries such as the AKC are for-profit entities and do not have canine health and welfare as their primary objective.
> 3. Dogs with superior confirmation and healthy genetics can and DO occur in "BYB" litters.




Well said! Being a vet tech who has done mainly domestic pets (canine/feline) and who has experience with dogs and owners/breeders of all types, I can say AKC papers do not mean what they used to to the veterinary medical field. Too many dogs are being sold with AKC papers that aren't even for that particular dog (some shady breeders will reuse paperwork from prior dogs), pet store puppies have AKC papers and most of the time they are from puppy mills. Some of the best quality/temperament dogs that I have seen have come from these BYB because of the family LOVE they receive...not to mention the common folk who can't afford a CH line dog, but like the breed, should be able to get quality pets that they don't have to take out a loan for!

After 20+ yrs in the companion/exotic animal field I can totally agree with you about the AKC. It does not stand for what it started out standing for...to most of us techs AKC papers means nothing more than you paid too much for the animal! They DO NOT guarantee a healthy, well adjusted dog!


----------



## wellington (Oct 7, 2012)

Edna said:


> I'm going to jump back to your assertions about dog breeding. Three points:
> 1. Dogs that are bred for dog shows, even dogs that win at dog shows and earn their CH, can and often do have genetic problems that will impact their own long-term health and that of their offspring.
> 2. Dog registries such as the AKC are for-profit entities and do not have canine health and welfare as their primary objective.
> 3. Dogs with superior confirmation and healthy genetics can and DO occur in "BYB" litters.



I some what agree with you. 
Number 1, good breeders, don't breed those dogs and if they find out after it has been bred, those puppies are not allowed to be bred.
Number 2 I agree to a point. They are their to register purebred dogs. They are also their to help educate breeders and people wanting to buy a purebred. Could they do better, yes, however it wouldn't be easy.
Number 3 by chance, not because the BYB did their home work. Even the best research and breeding only gets you one or two pups that should be bred again. A good breeder knows this and will only sell that one or two to go on and breed. The others will be sold under a pet quality only and will have to be s/n. BYB 99% of the time sell theirs with no s/n stipulations.


I forgot one more thing. Good breeders also don't sell their animals to just anyone. They will turn down a sale and they won't let the animal go, without educating the person first. A good breeder, also will always take the animal back if not being properly cared for, or if the person can't keep it for what ever reason.


----------



## Edna (Oct 7, 2012)

Ah! The "pet quality" puppy from a show litter..... I wouldn't take it on a bet. Those one or two puppies you would decide to show and go on to breed carry the same genetics as the cull puppies.
I choose a no-strings-attached puppy from a BYB every time I get a dog. It's an exercise of my freedom to do so, and a statement against the tyranny of show breeders and others


----------



## Yvonne G (Oct 7, 2012)

I think it depends upon the person's tortoise experience and what type of tortoise they want to breed. I'm very much against Joe the Plumber who lives next door and finds a pair of sulcatas and decides to make some money.


----------



## Wondering4toolong (Oct 7, 2012)

I guess I should mention that I don't think just anyone should be breeding (no matter what sp. we are talking about), but a lot of quality animals come from people who love the sp. and treat their "breeders" as pets NOT $$$ making machines. Most of the reptile breeders I have met started out as collectors and appreciators, people who want to share the feelings these creatures create in them (which I am sure is the same way AKC started)...I think we are a long way from being what the canine AKC world is, but we should watch them closely...we can learn a lot from their mistakes and how the world truly views them and how perspective of their institution changes. 

I don't think we should be cross breeding intentionally...but as for the possible survival of the sp. for the future (take Lonesome George) it might be necessary, but let the biologists and herpetologists take care of that...novice keepers should not be interbreeding on purpose, especially with animals (like sulcatas) that are too big for an average household when they become full sized...there are already too many ending up in rescue, we don't need to be adding more to the list!


----------



## wellington (Oct 7, 2012)

Edna said:


> Ah! The "pet quality" puppy from a show litter..... I wouldn't take it on a bet. Those one or two puppies you would decide to show and go on to breed carry the same genetics as the cull puppies.
> I choose a no-strings-attached puppy from a BYB every time I get a dog. It's an exercise of my freedom to do so, and a statement against the tyranny of show breeders and others



The difference. I know about the genetics of my dogs and the genetics I am breeding to. a BYB, never. I don't cull my dogs, as in the dog breeding world, that means to kill the not so good ones. There is no such thing as a "show litter" with a good breeder that is. Its a litter with hopefully a pup or two that has good confirmation to ve shown and bred. if my pups couldnt be shown, they weren't allowed to be bred either. The no strings attached, personally is why we have so many homeless dogs and dogs being killed every year. No thanks. I don't ever want to be a part of the homeless dog situation. Also, what I am talking about it is GOOD BREEDERS, not many of us fit into that category. I Unfortunatly have known too many BYB, ugh. Yep, that's where all the unwanted puppy litters at the pounds come from.


----------



## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 7, 2012)

Here's my take on animal breeding, and I think this applies to all animals.

1) Never ever inbreed. This means out-crossing whenever possible (Note: out-crossing does not mean hybridizing. More on this below). Avoid what is euphemistically referred to as line-breeding, which is really incestuously breeding offspring back to their parents. The only justification for this would be if the species (not subspecies or race, but species) is so endangered that this is the only way to perpetuate it. Inbreeding can lead to serious genetic disorders, including diseases, birth defects, and behavioral problems.

2) Never ever breed interspecific hybrids. Species rarely mate with other species in the wild, and when they do, the offspring rarely do well. Depending on how closely related the parent species are, hybrids may have reduced health or fertility. Human breeders should follow this natural law, and never hybridize their animals. Hybridization between different subspecies should also be avoided, although because offspring of these cross are perfectly healthy and fertile, it is not as bad. Again, only extremely endangered species should be considered for hybridization, for the purpose of perpetuating them.

3) Perpetuating wildtype morphology is better than selectively breeding for certain traits. Wildtype animals are usually the healthiest for a reason: they have been naturally selected for health and vitality. Artificial selection for certain colors, sizes, and behaviors usually reduces this healthy phenotype, because it can compromise a species' natural adaptations, inadvertently lead to other negative traits, or promote inbreeding depression. Some adaptation to a certain diet or environment may be expected as part of evolution. However, beyond these minor, necessary changes, further changes should not be selected. The above Rules #1 and #2 apply to this Rule #3.


----------



## Wondering4toolong (Oct 7, 2012)

Edna said:


> Ah! The "pet quality" puppy from a show litter..... I wouldn't take it on a bet. Those one or two puppies you would decide to show and go on to breed carry the same genetics as the cull puppies.
> I choose a no-strings-attached puppy from a BYB every time I get a dog. It's an exercise of my freedom to do so, and a statement against the tyranny of show breeders and others



My Boston Terr. came from a BYB and he is the best dog ever! My frenchie has papers and is a behavioral/medical disaster. (Both were technically rescues, Boston was a returned pup almost 5 mo old and the frenchie came from frenchbulldogrescue.org)

I know a lot of BYB as well as a handful of AKC breeders...most BYB love their dogs (there are exceptions for sure, ALWAYS ask to see their kennel area, good people will let you in) and want people to be able to appreciate the breed as they do, for loving pets. A lot of AKC people don't even have their CH dogs in their homes, they sell them to people but hold contracts over their heads so they can have partial ownership (and all of the credit) and still make money off of the animal without having to care for it 24/7. There are a lot of evils in the field of professional breeding of canines, the average person can't see what is really going on...it is a nasty, cut throat field that has strayed very far from it's beginnings...lets hope the reptile world doesn't end up the same way!




wellington said:


> Edna said:
> 
> 
> > Ah! The "pet quality" puppy from a show litter..... I wouldn't take it on a bet. Those one or two puppies you would decide to show and go on to breed carry the same genetics as the cull puppies.
> ...




Not totally true about the BYB, some do know about the genetics...

You are right, there aren't enough GOOD BREEDERS in both the AKC and BYB world...

And do you realize that a lot of dogs turned into rescue HAVE come with AKC papers, from "GOOD" breeders... they are turned in due to financial reasons, behavioral problems, and health conditions just to name a few. Even though breeders state they will take the dog back doesn't mean a person won't dump it elsewhere.

BYB isn't the reason for homeless pets...it's lack of quality owners, people who don't look at these creatures as being disposable! Yes charging more for a puppy gets rid of people who have less $ in the bank, but just because they pay more doesn't mean they won't neglect/abuse/abandon it...the people who don't have a lot of $ are the ones who will take out a loan to treat the pet at the vet's office, I've seen it time and time again...the people who can afford the testing are the people who don't go for it, they'd rather put it to sleep and get a new 1!


----------



## wellington (Oct 7, 2012)

I totally disagree. A GOOD breeder, will not ever turn their dog over to a pound, ever. That's why they are GOOD breeders. The higher prices from a GOOD breeder, doesn't even come close to the cost that went into the litter. We don't need more GOOD BYB, we need them elimated completely. That said, back to breeding of tortoises. My opinion is the same as for any animal. Might not be a popular opinion. But I don't care about that, I care only for the animals, ONLY the ANIMALS!


----------



## Jacqui (Oct 7, 2012)

My first belief on breeding ethics for tortoises, is that it depends on what species we are talking about. Are we talking something common like sulcata and red footed tortoises or something less common like the chaco or a spider?


----------



## CDNPyxis (Oct 7, 2012)

Wondering4toolong said:


> BYB isn't the reason for homeless pets...it's lack of quality owners, people who don't look at these creatures as being disposable! Yes charging more for a puppy gets rid of people who have less $ in the bank, but just because they pay more doesn't mean they won't neglect/abuse/abandon it...the people who don't have a lot of $ are the ones who will take out a loan to treat the pet at the vet's office, I've seen it time and time again...the people who can afford the testing are the people who don't go for it, they'd rather put it to sleep and get a new 1!



I agree with this completely. I will not give an animal away because many people will jump at the chance to get an animal "for free" and the real cost is in maintenance for most animals. Once you ask for some money you usually eliminate those people.

I think one of the saving graces for tortoises is that it takes a relatively long time before a baby is breedable. That is not to say that there are not a lot of adults out there that someone can get and start breeding immediatly, but overall the majority of what is available are babies. 

To me, the main points of tortoise breeding ethics is foremost the care and heath of the parents, then the consideration of whether the babies will actually be taken care of properly and no inbreeding. 

When I first started breeding tortoises it was Leopards, in Canada there were very few around and so I did not worry about the babies much as I knew we would be able to find good homes. When I moved down to the states I realized that there were piles of Leopards availale. I never bred my leopards after making this realization. This was compounded by the large size they get to, when there are very few available you feel comfortable with the idea that you will find a home that will be willing and able to accomodate the larger adult, but when there are so many all I could think about is how many large adults there would be in 10 years and how many would be in the same homes that purchased them as babies? All I could think about for Leopards and Sulcatas is the fate of most Red Eared Sliders.


----------



## Wondering4toolong (Oct 7, 2012)

wellington said:


> I totally disagree. A GOOD breeder, will not ever turn their dog over to a pound, ever. That's why they are GOOD breeders. The higher prices from a GOOD breeder, doesn't even come close to the cost that went into the litter. We don't need more GOOD BYB, we need them elimated completely. That said, back to breeding of tortoises. My opinion is the same as for any animal. Might not be a popular opinion. But I don't care about that, I care only for the animals, ONLY the ANIMALS!



I didn't say the breeders dump them at the pound, it's the owner the puppy was sold to...there is no way possible for breeders to keep track of all their pups throughout all their lives to be sure they are getting the best care and are never dumped. It is the high prices and BS that some people have to deal with going to an AKC breeder that pushes them to buying from BYB and puppy mills.

It is so true that the cost of the puppies doesn't come close to how much it costs to have the litter (in most cases but NOT ALL), but no matter how you try to explain it to the average person they won't understand that. If it were left up to the "GOOD" breeders (as you have stated it) a lot of these breed's popularity would die down due to common folk (which is who the original AKC people were) not being able to afford the breed. We need to get off our high horse and let the commoners back in without making them go to unscrupulous sources. I thought that "GOOD" breeders do it for the love of the breed, that love will die if we don't allow these breeds into loving homes, not just homes with cash in the bank. AKC breeders are just as much at fault (if not more) for the surge in dogs from puppy mills and BYB, they have created the desire in people to have these creatures in their homes, but they have set the bar too high for most to reach...


----------



## EricIvins (Oct 7, 2012)

Tortoises are not Dogs, nor Dogs Tortoises. The two are not comparable at all. The trades involving the two are not even close to being on the same level, goals, aspirations, etc.....

Two different books, on different chapters, not on the same page.........


----------



## wellington (Oct 7, 2012)

The GOOD breeders do let the people without a lot of money in the bank have the breed. I have sold pups for a lot less, because they were going into a fantastic home. For me and unfortunately very few like me, it is only for the love of the breed.




EricIvins said:


> Tortoises are not Dogs, nor Dogs Tortoises. The two are not comparable at all. The trades involving the two are not even close to being on the same level, goals, aspirations, etc.....
> 
> Two different books, on different chapters, not on the same page.........



I don't agree. When it comes to breeding anything. The standard of care and responsibility of the breeder for the breeding and offspring is the same, well it should be! My standard would be the same as it was for my dogs. The only difference would be the genetics, no records that I know of to research.


----------



## Wondering4toolong (Oct 7, 2012)

EricIvins said:


> Tortoises are not Dogs, nor Dogs Tortoises. The two are not comparable at all. The trades involving the two are not even close to being on the same level, goals, aspirations, etc.....
> 
> Two different books, on different chapters, not on the same page.........



They are diff creatures and as of now the industries ARE diff, but we should be open enough to look into other worlds and either take a page from their book or omit it...there is no telling what the future may hold, it is up to us to develop it...

I highly doubt turtles/tortoises will ever replace the retriever in the common household, but the numbers in rescue are growing faster than the number of quality households...even though we are looking at diff sp. I don't think it is unreasonable to examine mistakes and triumphs in the other areas of keeping any animal...




CDNPyxis said:


> Wondering4toolong said:
> 
> 
> > BYB isn't the reason for homeless pets...it's lack of quality owners, people who don't look at these creatures as being disposable! Yes charging more for a puppy gets rid of people who have less $ in the bank, but just because they pay more doesn't mean they won't neglect/abuse/abandon it...the people who don't have a lot of $ are the ones who will take out a loan to treat the pet at the vet's office, I've seen it time and time again...the people who can afford the testing are the people who don't go for it, they'd rather put it to sleep and get a new 1!
> ...




(Thumbs up to this post!) I used to breed Bearded Dragons...before the world became inundated with them. I morally couldn't be part of the problem I was starting to see rapidly increase and my efforts went to education and rescue for these wonderful little guys...been more than 10 yrs since I saw my last egg hatch. Luckily for the torti it does take longer for them to get to breeding size/age and most people don't just run out and buy adults.

The poor RES especially...look at this sp. in-particular to see what could happen down the road with other turtle/tortoise sp. Just doing a search on petfinder will show how many are in rescue...those are the lucky ones, there is no way of telling how many are dumped in local ponds and reservoirs...


----------



## Team Gomberg (Oct 7, 2012)

Laurie said:


> I'm certainly not against tortoise breeding, however, I don't agree that it should be attempted without making an effort to be sure you can properly care for these animals.



Ok, I am liking all the answers that tort breeding isn't bad or frowned upon if you are serious about their proper care, financially able to support them, not doing it for pure profit and educating the future buyers.. 

(Wellington, with dog breeding it sounds like you and I are completely on the same page  )

I like those that said they stopped breeding their specific animal when they noticed an abundance of them. That to me shows you really care about the animals and where they will end up. Thumbs up!



EricIvins said:


> Tortoises are not Dogs, nor Dogs Tortoises. The two are not comparable at all. The trades involving the two are not even close to being on the same level, goals, aspirations, etc.....
> 
> Two different books, on different chapters, not on the same page.........



This is kind of what I was figuring to some extent, but if you don't know, ask!!

Just a side story, I spent months researching about torts before I finally got mine. I met up with my breeder and selected my little guy. I was waiting for her to ask me about how I will care for him. Or even for her to share with me about how to properly care for him. I couldn't wait to "impress" her with how much I had learned. I left sad because not ONCE did she tell me what to do, how to do anything or even ask what I knew about them. I take that back, she did tell me to soak once a day, they ate romaine lettuce and to have them in a shallow tub or tank vs. a tall one. But that was it. A one liner as we wrapped it up....This experience is what contributed to my questioning about tortoise breeding ethics. I did compare it to the way some puppy sales go.


----------



## wellington (Oct 7, 2012)

Unfortunately, that is the norm in any animal breeding/selling scenario. The all mighty dollar, as sick as it is, becomes more important, then a living, breathing, feeling creature Very few really care about the creature A lot of people will even act and say they care. The sad truth with a lot of them. When push comes to shove, the animal is the first to pay


----------



## Terry Allan Hall (Oct 7, 2012)

shellysmom said:


> There are definitely debatable issues surrounding tortoise breeders. There are good responsible breeders, questionable backyard breeders, and I suspect there's a "tortie mill" facility in Port Richey, FL. I, personally, take issue with breeders who bring tortoises into the world and then sell their animals to idiots without so much as a simple explanation in how to care for it. For example, if you look at all of the large sulcatas for rehoming on Craig's List, you can get a sense of what I'm talking about. I have a feeling a lot of the people who originally purchased these animals from pet stores or questionable breeders, they were neither told by the seller that the tortoises would get to be 150lbs, nor did they do any simple research to find out. *The sulcata's unmanageable adult size seems to be the main reason they are relinquished more often than other tortoise species, so it probably was not the best idea for soooo many people to jump on the sulcata breeding bandwagon. On the flip side, there are definitely beneficial reasons for breeding animals whose wild populations are decreasing.* If you look at places like Kelly Hull's Tortoise Sanctuary, or the Turtle Survival Alliance, this type of conscientious breeding may one day save endangered species from extinction, and that is absolutely amazing.



Agree on both of your points...while entirely too many sulcatas end up in rescues, smaller tortoises should be bred to take the pressure off of wild stock.


----------



## ALDABRAMAN (Oct 7, 2012)

Team Gomberg said:


> *financially able to support them, not doing it for pure profit and educating the future buyers.. *








wellington said:


> *Unfortunately, that is the norm in any animal breeding/selling scenario. The all mighty dollar, as sick as it is, becomes more important, then a living, breathing, feeling creature Very few really care about the creature *



*True!*


----------



## Team Gomberg (Oct 7, 2012)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> shellysmom said:
> 
> 
> > There are definitely debatable issues surrounding tortoise breeders. There are good responsible breeders, questionable backyard breeders, and I suspect there's a "tortie mill" facility in Port Richey, FL. I, personally, take issue with breeders who bring tortoises into the world and then sell their animals to idiots without so much as a simple explanation in how to care for it. For example, if you look at all of the large sulcatas for rehoming on Craig's List, you can get a sense of what I'm talking about. I have a feeling a lot of the people who originally purchased these animals from pet stores or questionable breeders, they were neither told by the seller that the tortoises would get to be 150lbs, nor did they do any simple research to find out. *The sulcata's unmanageable adult size seems to be the main reason they are relinquished more often than other tortoise species, so it probably was not the best idea for soooo many people to jump on the sulcata breeding bandwagon. On the flip side, there are definitely beneficial reasons for breeding animals whose wild populations are decreasing.* If you look at places like Kelly Hull's Tortoise Sanctuary, or the Turtle Survival Alliance, this type of conscientious breeding may one day save endangered species from extinction, and that is absolutely amazing.
> ...



well said shellysmom.

Terry Allan Hall, I like what you said about smaller torts being bred to take the supply/demand pressure off the wild caught.


----------



## CactusVinnie (Oct 8, 2012)

Just that I wanted to put in order a simple answer, I saw that Gaddy was the first- as usual :shy:... So:

1- avoid inbreeding; not that acute in reptiles like in mammals, generally,, but the effects will appear sooner or later, and is not something easy to look at... better not find when or how it will look...

2- avoid crossings even between too distant populations; if possible, every program of rebuilding lost populations should be based in close range remnant populations, better adapted to the local environment than the same species, but from far, possible different locations; the same applies even in amateur level breeding. Know your tortoises origin: ask, digg and find.
Not to mention that HYBRIDS between subspecies, or even worse, SPECIES, are not at all desirable.

3- avoid selection/line-breding, a practice that accentuate a certain set of desired characteristics, almost always for market purposes.
Example: If you just look infos for the Golden Greeks, you will maybe surprised to find that they are not at all Golden as populations, but very variable, with only a greater number of Goldens within populations. Weird light coloured individuals occur even in Romanian Ibera or Boettgeri!! That kind of selection will also imply, after a few generations, a certain degree of inbreeding, since not all the offspring will be Golden; that thing will surprise the breeder, but is naturally reflecting the 75% commercial reasons for that pompous name...

4- avoid reckless breeding- the case of the RES needs no presentation... cheap, mass-produced chelonians, reaching he hands of instabile "enthusiasts", that got bored of the 5 y.o. RES that reached 10 inches and makes a terrible mess... that finally were disposed no matter how and where- including natural waters all over the world. Not to mention the animal neglect and suffering, it arises the problem of ecological catastrophe... A higher price and smaller production scale would have been useful to select the true enthusiasts, and the poor animal not becoming as cheap as a few Guppies and also identical in the ease to get rid of...
Even not adaptable and invasive, many individuals from species that grow too big will finally end by lacking proper housing, care and food. 

Well, if it's to choose between overabundent breeding and depleting natural populations, the choice is easy, but it's not that easy to make it into fact, unfortunately. I have yet to see that the abundance of Testudo- be they Russians, Balkan, North-African or Middle East races- will originate in the successful, but exagerated captive breeding... 
But why not? Because that for a commercial breeder, Testudo sp. are far more difficult to became mass-produced than (temperate) Emydids; so consequently, proportionally more difficult to keep by an amateur, many tortoise falling ill or dying, so no aditional captive perpetuation, but continuous imports of WC individuals, until total depletion in their countries of origin.

These should be the 4 pillars of chelonian- and not only- breeding ethics.


----------



## Wondering4toolong (Oct 8, 2012)

CactusVinnie said:


> Just that I wanted to put in order a simple answer, I saw that Gaddy was the first- as usual :shy:... So:
> 
> 1- avoid inbreeding; not that acute in reptiles like in mammals, generally,, but the effects will appear sooner or later, and is not something easy to look at... better not find when or how it will look...
> 
> ...



****(APPLAUSE)****


----------



## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 8, 2012)

Good job, Fabian. Well said.


----------



## CactusVinnie (Oct 8, 2012)

:shy: Thanks, guys!
... and, Gady- again thinking identically in essence, but with inherent phenotypically variability, of course


----------



## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 8, 2012)

CactusVinnie said:


> :shy: Thanks, guys!
> ... and, Gady- again thinking identically in essence, but with inherent phenotypically variability, of course



Yep, we're on the same page.


----------

