# Vitamin A Injection, of course went wrong



## ascott (Nov 11, 2011)

Hi all....I am getting a jump on getting this situation out to our members....this lady and her tort (sulcata) have been done wrong and she needs input from the group so she can help her tortoise, to follow is the exact post from another site she visited, she is currently getting joined onto the forum:

_*"I am in a panic. My 46 lb tort lost a scute so it was suggested to me to take to an exotic vet which I did. the vet felt maybe living in the east cost of pa not enough light was available. so she injected him with Vitamin A. and she has gone downhill ever since. her leg is so swollen and abscessor raw looking, had not eaten on her own. doesn't do much of anything now. Took her back to the vet in a panic and they put a feeding tube in her. I am sick to death over
this. I have been feeding her mushed pumpkin and kale and collards etc. but not much improvement. the vet is now trying lazer treatments on her leg. she was normal except for the scute coming off and now shes not the same at all.any information as to why this happened would be greatly appreciated.
thanks*_
sue"

This was my response to her:

"_Hello Sue,I will not bash the vet..but will suggest you not go through with the laser treatment....I would suggest that you at this point step in and provide care for your tort right away..first, suggest that you house your tort in a bit more sterile surrounding
(papertowels or newspaper as temporary substrate...I would
set a goal of clean as the operative word....soak your torts affected leg each day at least twice...warm water and if you can get your hands on a bottle of Betadine solution and a small spray bottle (as 45 pounds means not easily moved
by some folks) I would soak the affected area in warm water for at least30minutes then pat dry the leg...then spray or use squeeze bottle to drench the affected area with the betadine solution (be sure to mix betadine with water until the mix appears color of weak to moderate tea)....I would then offer temps at increased level (due to he is in poor health) of hot spot of no less than100ish and cool side no lower than 80ish...as elevated temps during poor health
will aid in their immune system warding off infection....and infection is absolutely a possibility....I would also get baytril injections planned....you can likely get the betadine and baytril from your vets office (especially after you explain your plan and, if it were me, your anger with the vets treatment and results) I am giving all of this advice guessing that the tort you have is a large species such as sulcata or leopard tortoise? Of which either can safely
be treated this way....I would be sure to let him be quiet and calm and clean and warm.....I would also suggest that you locate a exotic reptile vet that you can interview prior to having treatments done.....I also suggest you do loads of research on this subject of the vitamin A injection hazards..."_


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## Torty Mom (Nov 11, 2011)

Ahhhhhhhh, my heart is breaking!!! OMG!!!


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## CtTortoiseMom (Nov 11, 2011)

Oh no, after hearing all these stories I am getting leery myself of these shot's. That is so terrible and I feel awful for the keeper and tort!!

Oh and I thought it might be worth mentioning that Sid had a sensitivity to the beta dine and water mixed when treating his abscess but a warm water and hydrogen peroxide compress worked wonders and can be applied more liberally than the betadine.


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## dmarcus (Nov 11, 2011)

Poor girl, I hope she is able to pull through this..


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## froghaven5 (Nov 11, 2011)

so upsetting hearing stories like that. I hope Sue is able to help her tort through this.


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## kimber_lee_314 (Nov 11, 2011)

So sad ... I wish I could do something for both of them!


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## DesertGrandma (Nov 11, 2011)

Thanks for posting this for all to see. It is so good to know that these things can happen. Learning from others heartbreaking experience.


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## DerekS (Nov 11, 2011)

Just curious for future vet visits, is there any alternative to a vitamin a injection? My vet gave my RES one once, and I didnt have any problems with it but can you get the vitamin a into them some other way without the risk of overdose?


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## Laura (Nov 11, 2011)

is this an overdose? 
Vit A can be fed to them if they are eating.. or Vit A liquid drops.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 11, 2011)

Vitamin A is very easy to get into a turtle or tortoise. There is never a need for an injection.


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## Maggie Cummings (Nov 11, 2011)

No Betadine! You can use it once to clean the area but then it starts killing the white blood cells too so you don't want that because white cells fight off infection and promote new growth. Use a weakened Chlorhexidine solution, 20/1. Baytril causes them to lose their appetite, so I would suggest Naxcel or another antibiotic that is not as strong and intrusive as Baytril. I'd get a fresh UVB bulb and keep him in a sterile situation as Angela suggests. Warm soaks daily using Terramycin powder and I guess that's about all I can think of. Try feeding watermelon or strawberries, stuff like that, that may not be really nutritious but tortoises like them and might take to eating them more easily, bananas is another...
I agree with the warmer temperatures too. Angela was spot on except for the Betadine...and the Baytril and the...

No this is not an overdose, it's what happens to the skin, it abscess's and I don't know why or how to explain it. I just know I was always taught never get Vitamin A injections. You can feed a chelonia and get Vit A up that way much easier. I'm hoping exoticdr will see this and explain why this happens and make some suggestions on what to do now...


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## ascott (Nov 11, 2011)

maggie is correct in that there are a variety of medicines that can be utilized to aid in the healing of open wounds as well as antibiotics.

I have had great success with the betadine (again, diluted to a weak to moderate tea color) for healing on open wounds...also have had great success with Baytril and no loss of appetite on the treated tortoise 

outside of this minor difference the basic care around the tortoise is in line....

I have also pm'd exoticdr (I believe Yvonne has as well?) so I hope he too comes across and gives great information that you can utilize in the care of your Busta....

How is he doing Sue?


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## Yvonne G (Nov 11, 2011)

Dr. Todd gave Sue some invaluable help on her thread. One of the things he said was to avoid soaks, but use instead running water. You don't want that open wound to be in water the tortoise may poop and pee in (of course, Dr. Todd was a little more "couth" than I, he didn't use "poop" or "pee!"  )


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## ascott (Nov 11, 2011)

LOL....very awesome Yvonne....I am just coming on and am working my way through the threads.....thank you so much for the heads up


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## Shelly (Nov 12, 2011)

Vitamin injections are a common method to pad a vet's bill.


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## exoticsdr (Nov 12, 2011)

Shelly said:


> Vitamin injections are a common method to pad a vet's bill.



Why am I not surprised by this statement?


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## Nay (Nov 12, 2011)

Vit A was the 'old' stand by problem of yester years! Before the internet and availability of info, it seems Vitamin A deficiency was the 'fix' of many problems and treated as such. Many vets saw torts strictly by default if they saw them at all, in my case because no-one in the area saw vets, and was actually trying to help some desperate people.
Nowadays seeing a tort, and injecting Vit A by no means pads any vet's pocket.
Hope this all works out. 
Good Luck and keep us posted!
NAy


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## exoticsdr (Nov 12, 2011)

Nay said:


> Vit A was the 'old' stand by problem of yester years! Before the internet and availability of info, it seems Vitamin A deficiency was the 'fix' of many problems and treated as such. Many vets saw torts strictly by default if they saw them at all, in my case because no-one in the area saw vets, and was actually trying to help some desperate people.
> Nowadays seeing a tort, and injecting Vit A by no means pads any vet's pocket.
> Hope this all works out.
> Good Luck and keep us posted!
> ...


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## zesty_17 (Nov 12, 2011)

So so sorry to hear about this poor tort. 

i use honey over any other topical medication every time! Our vets swear by honey & banana cream & i have seen many many miracle healings because of it.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 12, 2011)

zesty_17 said:


> So so sorry to hear about this poor tort.
> 
> i use honey over any other topical medication every time! Our vets swear by honey & banana cream & i have seen many many miracle healings because of it.



This isn't the thread for it, but sometime if you get a chance, would you please start a new thread and elaborate for us? I'm always interested in learning something new.


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## Shelly (Nov 13, 2011)

exoticsdr said:


> Shelly said:
> 
> 
> > Vitamin injections are a common method to pad a vet's bill.
> ...



Do you disagree that many Veterinarians perform unneeded procedures to pad their bills? 
I worked for 2 different vets as a tech many years ago. I have been a pet owner for 40 years. I have been reading these forums for the past 3 years. That is how I formed my opinion.


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## CtTortoiseMom (Nov 13, 2011)

I respectfully disagree. I have had many pets and with pet insurance and people using the Internet to comparison shop and research, vet's simply do not do anything you have described. The veterinarians I know are passionate about animals and go over and beyond in order to help. Especially Doctor Todd.


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## exoticsdr (Nov 13, 2011)

I do feel horribley guilty though, for I have been guilty of padding a bill....well actually two....I just knew that those open heart, double kidney transplants would come back to bite me in the backside!

Doc


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## Shelly (Nov 13, 2011)

CtTortoiseMom said:


> vet's simply do not do anything you have described. Especially Doctor Todd.



Respectfully, I think you live in a dream world.
Case in point. I took my mother's very old, very sick cat to the vet. First thing he said is, "We need to run blood tests". I asked him "Do you think there is a reasonable chance that the tests will reveal a treatable condition?" His reply.. "No, not really".
I once had a very large 16 year old dog that needed to be euthanized. I called every vet in my area that did house calls, as I wanted to save my pet (who was also blind) the trauma of a car ride in his very weak, sick condition. The LOWEST estimate I got was $475, to come to my house and give the dog an injection of Euthanol. Please explain to me how that is not an attempt to gouge somebody who is in an emotionally vulnerable condition? 
I worked for a Vet named W. Steele Livingston in the late 1970's. He was one of the few vets at the time that offered cancer treatments for pets. I remember one animal in particular that he treated for over a year. It was a huge Saint Bernard. In the year it took him to die, he endured TWO leg amputations and chemo therapy with an experimental drug he had developed called "Lysate". He later received a patent for the drug as an arthritis treatment. http://www.surechem.org/index.php?Action=document&docId=990397&db=USPTO 
That poor dog endured more agony than I can describe. Can you imagine a 125 pound dog as a double amputee? How is that ethical? The owners paid thousands and thousands of dollars. The equivalent in todays money would probably be over $20,000.
Do you read the threads in this forum? There have been literally countless threads that have depicted vet visits and treatments that could be described as incompetent at best, and unethical at worst.
As far as "Doctor Todd" I have no reason to believe he is anything but reasonable, and an expert in his field, based on his posts that I have read. Not sure why he seems to take my posts so personally. I personally am in a profession in which many (if not most) of the practitioners are incompetent and often dishonest. 
There are probably thousands and thousands of great vets throughout the country, just as there are fabulous auto mechanics and amazing plumbers. But as in any field, I know for a fact there are also countless vets that are treat their profession as nothing more than a way to squeeze money out of ignorant, distraught pet owners.
If you think I never have anything good to say about veterinarians, please read this post. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Credit-where-it-is-due#axzz1dd3cpmdt
Your experiences with vets have been positive. Good for you. Many of mine have not.


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## ascott (Nov 13, 2011)

Shelly, I agree with you on your feelings and observations of a large number of vets as well as I agree this holds true with human doctors as well.....I do know that there are also good vets in the world.

I also have had more than a handful of first hand experience with less than desirable vets.... that only forces me to be a better educated person in any future relationships with other vets....which is my job as a keeper of animals of any kind..IMHO

Bringing this post back to the topic  In this tortoise case, I firmly believe that the vet failed not just the keeper but moreover the tortoise that did not have to go through this trauma. I believe that is the saddest thing...and all of the patchwork the vet is offing onto this keeper to clean up after a terrible choice that this vet made....and there would be no way no how that I would ever take the word, nor opinion of that vet again let alone I would not trust that the "follow up" procedures are of a sound choice either from that vet....the vet would have failed in a way that can not be taken back....now, I certainly hope that vet will not make that same choice again given a tortoise with simply a missing scute....IMHO

I do have respect for a person who becomes a vet....however I do not hand respect out to a person simply because they call themselves a vet....


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## Torty Mom (Nov 13, 2011)

Angela, have you heard from her, how is the tortie doing?


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## CtTortoiseMom (Nov 13, 2011)

Shelly said:


> CtTortoiseMom said:
> 
> 
> > vet's simply do not do anything you have described. Especially Doctor Todd.
> ...


That is some terrible stuff that you have witnessed. I am horrified about the St.Bernard and so sorry about the loss of your own dog and suffering you went through.


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## ascott (Nov 13, 2011)

Mary Anne I have not heard anything else from her???? I hope her tortoise makes it through aok


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## lynnedit (Nov 13, 2011)

Yes, I would also like to know if the tort made it?


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