# Pyramiding? Unsure?advice most welcome



## Bigred1974 (Sep 9, 2019)

Hi there. I have a 2 year old Horsefield named Crystal. We rescued her from a house where she had been living with another Horsefield and was being g bullied. She has been with us since June and we are trying everting we can to make sure she has the best set up and life from now on.
I wanted to check with you guys if you think that her shell has pyramids or if I’m just being paranoid. Some photos to follow. Thanks in advance everyone


----------



## Bébert81 (Sep 9, 2019)

Yes started to pyramiding due to alimentation or/and lack of UVs.


----------



## TechnoCheese (Sep 9, 2019)

Bébert81 said:


> Yes started to pyramiding due to alimentation or/and lack of UVs.



Both of these things have very little to nothing to do with pyramiding. Pyramiding is caused by growth in dry conditions.


----------



## Bigred1974 (Sep 9, 2019)

Thanks. I have been working hard on her humidity since she has arrived with me which has been 3 months. She is getting baths daily as loves them and I have coco coir, orchid substrate and a water spray to keep the table moist. I have ordered a humid thermometer so can make sure it’s right.


----------



## TechnoCheese (Sep 9, 2019)

Bigred1974 said:


> Thanks. I have been working hard on her humidity since she has arrived with me which has been 3 months. She is getting baths daily as loves them and I have coco coir, orchid substrate and a water spray to keep the table moist. I have ordered a humid thermometer so can make sure it’s right.



Sounds like you’re doing everything right to get it to start coming in smooth. You might also try covering the enclosure to ensure that the humidity isn’t escaping.
Also ensure that the hygrometer you get is digital and not analog so that you’re getting accurate readings


----------



## Bébert81 (Sep 9, 2019)

TechnoCheese said:


> Both of these things have very little to nothing to do with pyramiding. Pyramiding is caused by growth in dry conditions.


Right.
Can maintain it outside too depending of climate. Need to be protected against humidity during hibernation but think it's possible in UK.


----------



## Tom (Sep 9, 2019)

Bébert81 said:


> Yes started to pyramiding due to alimentation or/and lack of UVs.


Pyramiding is not caused by food or by lack of UV. Pyramiding is _caused_ by growth in conditions that are too dry.


----------



## Tom (Sep 9, 2019)

Bigred1974 said:


> Hi there. I have a 2 year old Horsefield named Crystal. We rescued her from a house where she had been living with another Horsefield and was being g bullied. She has been with us since June and we are trying everting we can to make sure she has the best set up and life from now on.
> I wanted to check with you guys if you think that her shell has pyramids or if I’m just being paranoid. Some photos to follow. Thanks in advance everyone


Your tortoise looks pretty good. Good hydration, moderate humidity, a humid hide, and using the right bulbs will help to reduce these effects. What are you currently using for heat and UV? Avoid mercury vapor bulbs, halogen bulbs and any sort of "spot" bulb.

Here are more tips and info:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/

Questions and conversation are welcome.


----------



## Bébert81 (Sep 9, 2019)

Honnestly better to keep them outside if climate permitte it.
I know some people keeping them outside in UK, depending of the exact localisation.


----------



## Bigred1974 (Sep 9, 2019)

Tom said:


> Your tortoise looks pretty good. Good hydration, moderate humidity, a humid hide, and using the right bulbs will help to reduce these effects. What are you currently using for heat and UV? Avoid mercury vapor bulbs, halogen bulbs and any sort of "spot" bulb.
> 
> Here are more tips and info:
> https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
> ...


----------



## Bigred1974 (Sep 9, 2019)

Hi Tom - I am using the above. I gave a feeling though I would be better getting a floodlight? Is that correct?


----------



## Bigred1974 (Sep 9, 2019)

Temperature in the table is 105 at the hottest part and 75 at the coolest. She was being bullied before by another Horsefield when we rescued her.


----------



## Bigred1974 (Sep 9, 2019)

Bébert81 said:


> Honnestly better to keep them outside if climate permitte it.
> I know some people keeping them outside in UK, depending of the exact localisation.


We live in Manchester ️️️️


----------



## Tom (Sep 9, 2019)

That is a mercury vapor bulb. I used to like those, but now realize they have far too many issues and they also cause pyramiding.

There are four elements to heating and lighting:

Basking bulb. I use 65 watt floods from the hardware store. I run them on a timer for 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. You can mount a fixture on the ceiling, or hang a dome lamp from the ceiling. Go lower or higher wattage if this makes the enclosure too hot or not warm enough. Do not use "spot" bulbs, mercury vapor bulbs or halogen bulbs.
Ambient heat maintenance. Unless your house gets unusually cold at night, you can skip this step for a Russian. Night lows above 60 require no night heat for Testudo species.
Light. I use florescent tubes for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most tubes at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. I've been using LEDs lately and they are great, and run cooler than a florescent. This can be set on the same timer as the basking bulb. If your tortoises room is already adequately lit, you don't need this one either.
UV. If you can get your tortoise outside in a safe secure enclosure for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. If you want it anyway, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. It helps to have a UV meter to test and see what your bulb is actually putting out at your mounting height. Plexi-glass or screen tops will filter out some or all of the UV produced by your bulb.


----------



## Bigred1974 (Sep 9, 2019)

She has been out a lot over the Summer as eventually I would like her to be outside for most of the time


----------



## Bigred1974 (Sep 9, 2019)

Tom said:


> That is a mercury vapor bulb. I used to like those, but now realize they have far too many issues and they also cause pyramiding.
> 
> There are four elements to heating and lighting:
> 
> ...


Thanks. I will look at buying this on payday ( 15th)


----------



## Bigred1974 (Sep 9, 2019)

Tom said:


> That is a mercury vapor bulb. I used to like those, but now realize they have far too many issues and they also cause pyramiding.
> 
> There are four elements to heating and lighting:
> 
> ...


Could she even go outside on a ‘ dull day’. I have an outside temperature measure as well so if it’s over 20oc I have been putting her outside in a secure place.


----------



## Blackdog1714 (Sep 9, 2019)

As long as it is warm enough even dull days contain UV rays. They are just not as strong


----------



## Tom (Sep 9, 2019)

Bigred1974 said:


> Could she even go outside on a ‘ dull day’. I have an outside temperature measure as well so if it’s over 20oc I have been putting her outside in a secure place.


No point in putting the tortoise outside on a cloudy 20C day. They can't function or digest their food at that temperature and there is no way to warm up without some sunshine. Better to leave the tortoise inside where it can warm up.


----------



## Bébert81 (Sep 10, 2019)

Bigred1974 said:


> We live in Manchester ️️️️


Argh!


----------



## ColinS (Sep 11, 2019)

Bigred1974 said:


> We live in Manchester ️️️️


We are in Manchester and we have a cold frame with a heat lamp in. And they’re still outside now. They can leave the heated cold frame as they please and have been out even in these cooler days. But they always go to the hides inside the cold frame of a night.


----------



## turtlesteve (Sep 11, 2019)

Tom said:


> That is a mercury vapor bulb. I used to like those, but now realize they have far too many issues and they also cause pyramiding.
> 
> There are four elements to heating and lighting:
> 
> ...



Interesting to hear you're now avoiding the mercury vapor bulbs. Maybe you've mentioned it before but I hadn't noticed. I'm still using them, but mount them high to spread out the hot spot. Have you used HID bulbs (such as solar raptor) and if so, what is your opinion on them? They are more available in Europe versus the US. Supposedly more UV / less heat compared to mercury vapor. I got one a few years ago for a fully enclosed habitat (where a mercury vapor bulb would be too hot) and it seems to be a nice intermediate solution that still provides some temperature gradient.


----------



## Tom (Sep 11, 2019)

turtlesteve said:


> Interesting to hear you're now avoiding the mercury vapor bulbs. Maybe you've mentioned it before but I hadn't noticed. I'm still using them, but mount them high to spread out the hot spot. Have you used HID bulbs (such as solar raptor) and if so, what is your opinion on them? They are more available in Europe versus the US. Supposedly more UV / less heat compared to mercury vapor. I got one a few years ago for a fully enclosed habitat (where a mercury vapor bulb would be too hot) and it seems to be a nice intermediate solution that still provides some temperature gradient.


I don't have any experience with the HID bulbs. I really know nothing about them. If those are available here, I haven't seen or heard of them in use yet.


----------



## Bigred1974 (Sep 11, 2019)

ColinS said:


> We are in Manchester and we have a cold frame with a heat lamp in. And they’re still outside now. They can leave the heated cold frame as they please and have been out even in these cooler days. But they always go to the hides inside the cold frame of a night.


Would love to see your set up - could you post a couple of photos on here please? As she’s only 2 would she cope with the weather being so young?


----------



## turtlesteve (Sep 11, 2019)

Tom said:


> I don't have any experience with the HID bulbs. I really know nothing about them. If those are available here, I haven't seen or heard of them in use yet.



The solar raptor HID lights showed up in a US show once a few years ago, I think it was the Pomona, CA show. Never seen them before or since. They are a German manufacturer and were trying to break into the US market. I like them so far and was considering switching to these from mercury vapor, so that's why I asked. I have tried the newer fluorescent bulbs and did not care for them.


----------



## ColinS (Sep 11, 2019)

Bigred1974 said:


> Would love to see your set up - could you post a couple of photos on here please? As she’s only 2 would she cope with the weather being so young?


I will have a go at uploading some pics later today. And maybe now it’s a little bit cooler she maybe too young. Really I would put her out beginning of summer and let her acclimatise herself as the weather gradually cools


----------



## Bigred1974 (Sep 11, 2019)

ColinS said:


> I will have a go at uploading some pics later today. And maybe now it’s a little bit cooler she maybe too young. Really I would put her out beginning of summer and let her acclimatise herself as the weather gradually cools


Thanks. Yes she’s been out most days since we have had her but we haven’t got a cold frame heat lamp set up just a secure pen. Hey it’s gling to be nice this weekend so she will be back out from this afternoon and bought in about 6 pm


----------



## Bébert81 (Sep 12, 2019)

I'm using Solar Raptor HID bulbs 35W flood type with ballast for my Pelusios sp and for me it's one of the better products.
For some desertic tortoises it's nice to use 70W ones (with ballast) but for a russian a 35W is sufficient.

You can see here the UV concentration with distance indications:


----------



## Bigred1974 (Sep 12, 2019)

Bébert81 said:


> I'm using Solar Raptor HID bulbs 35W flood type with ballast for my Pelusios sp and for me it's one of the better products.
> For some desertic tortoises it's nice to use 70W ones (with ballast) but for a russian a 35W is sufficient.
> 
> You can see here the UV concentration with distance indications:


Thanks for this. Very helpful


----------



## Bébert81 (Sep 12, 2019)

For me one of the best ones in the market and consume only 35W...


----------



## Tortoise MasterMan (Nov 18, 2019)

Make sure she is getting the proper amount of calcium as well.


----------



## Tortoise MasterMan (Nov 18, 2019)

You could also change her UV bulb if you are still worried. But the increased humidity should help the most.


----------

