# Breeding Sulcatas



## Redfootedboxturtles

I was wondering if there is someone out there who would like to debate the issue of captive breeding of sulcata tortoises. 

It is pretty much common knowledge that sulcatas are one of if not the most popular pet tortoise. Almost all sulcata owners have hatchlings and most of those hatchlings turn into deformed giants that end up at rescues and sanctuary's. 

I have rescued my share of sulcatas For various reasons. The debate here is wether or not it is ok to breed these awesome and beautiful tortoises. Even though the majority of hatchlings are not well taken care of and often dumped when/if they get larger then the owner can manage. 

For sake of the debate I can engage in either side of the argument.


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## Yvonne G

Sulcatas and red ear sliders...same difference as to breeding. Its like breeding feral cats...there are already too many of them in need of good homes. However I know we're not going to be able to stop the really large breeders of these types of chelonia. There was a little old lady in our turtle club who had about 10 full grown male and female sulcatas. She had wall to wall 50 gallon aquariums in her family room and the aquariums were "wall to wall" with baby sulcatas. There was nothing we could do or say to make her stop breeding them. She died last year and still had over 500 sulcata babies of all ages and shapes, mostly deformed except for the brand new ones. I think the 2 year old that I just rescued today came from her. She sold a few to pet shops and this pet shop where my rescue came from was one that used to buy from her. As long as they can make money at it, we're never going to be able to stop it. And then there are the back yard breeders. No way to convince any of them that they can't make money at it. I used to chop up the eggs in the nest, and was doing so one day when my sister came over. She begged me to let her have just one egg! And she's part of my Rescue. So I understand the attraction.

Yvonne


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## Redfootedboxturtles

You have even gone as far as crushing the eggs. So you are pretty dedicated to the No Sulcata Breeding. 
So your main argument is that the pet market is saturated with sulcata tortoises already. So because of that any hatchlings produced wouldn't find quality homes and would at the best just end up back at sanctuary's and rescues. 

Also I like the point you made about most sulcata breeders are trying to make some money. 

__

Here is the cities web adressing sulcata tortoises 
http://www.cites.org/eng/cop/11/prop/38.pdf


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## Jacqui

I have never had the honor of owning one of these awesome creatures. I keep coming so close to getting one, but then seriously think about the future size they will be and yes for now I have the room for one (or even more), but at almost fifty years of age, I question what kind of a future would this animal possibly be facing.

I see the large numbers being dumped into rescues and it leads me to say we should not be breeding these torts. I feel the same about the Red Eared sliders too, which is why I only house females and also destroy the eggs. However I also see a large number of Russians being placed into shelters.

I think, much as with the large snakes, there needs to be a much better education of potential owners and even breeders. Should you need a license?  I have feelings both ways on that subject. I would hate for more species to be under attack with forced ownership limitations and breedings, yet fear that is where we are headed, if we fail to take action now.

It's just so hard for folks (me included) to look past that cute hatchling and see the big adult. Geesh torts aren't even nice like most puppies to have big feet to show us their possible size potential.  It would be nice if the vet community could come up with easy, safe, inexpensive neutering and spaying of torts like we do cats and dogs.

Do I have the right to down people for breeding their animals, no. I might ask them to think carefully before doing so. To then, if they are doing it just to show their children this amazing process, to ask them to only incubate a few eggs, not the whole clutch. I can only ask them to do what I myself am willing to do when a species I own becomes in this situation.

I do wonder however, if these torts are indeed as plentiful as we are lead to believe, why is their price still not cheap?


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## agiletorts

I don't have sulcata even though I have a decent yard, as I already have other species that's pretty impossible to mix with this giant. But regarding breeding them, I guess the pet owners can do whatever they want, whether morally right or not. As long as there's demand there will be supply and the pet market will continue. Our best bet would just to continue to educate people on how to raise them properly, and rescue those who are not so lucky.


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## Redfootedboxturtles

Are there any sulcata breeders that can add this thread?

I was also thinking is this the same or worse then breeding dogs and cats? I mean people breed dogs and cats all day long , pure bred or not. I think its a shame becuase so many are put to death because they have no home. Yet people breed all kinds of stuff like its going out of style. Puppy mills and Home=back yard, breeders. 

My question here is how does sulcata breeding compair to dog and cat breeding.


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## Laura

Maybe breeders of just about anything.. should be Licensed. if they have to jump thru a few hoops to make money, then they may think twice? Dont charge a lot for the license, but they must show proof of knowledge? Experience? Be Inspected? ???Pet Stores should only be able to buy from these licesensed people? But then here in calif we are just about to make it mandatory that you have to spay or neuter your dogs.. There is a lot of small print and weird rules in this law and i dont like it yet.. is it needed? Something is!! More low cost clinics, funding, education.. but not sure this new law the way it is worded is good,. and of course these type of laws only hurt the already responsible people! 
Im on the fence as to how to enforce it, regulate it etc. including the sulcata breeding thing.. For the ones that do survive and need placement there are hundreds or thousands that die and suffer from improper care and probably get tossed out with the trash or buried in the back yard. Not just sulcatas.. but many other pets. 
Start by prohibiting sales of tiny hatchlings? No sales at Shows? Mandatory Husbandry classes for new owners or wanna bees? ( should be parenting classes for human children too!) 
Not sure what the answer is.. but would be nice to see something started. I know there is the Rescue in Malibu that no longer rescues, but is working on legal stuff and legislation, including the sale of and breeding sulcatas.. Ill try to find the Press Release she sent to me a while back...


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## Laura

http://www.tortoise.com/news/press_release_giant_tortoies_12.3.03.html

Here is one.. Its on ther website.


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## Laura

Ventura County Star
May 4, 2003
Rescue group pleads, 'Don't buy hatchlings' 
May 4, 2003 

American Tortoise Rescue in Malibu is one of many turtle and tortoise groups in North America calling on the pet industry to stop selling giant tortoises called sulcatas. Many people who buy cute hatchlings are told sulcatas won't get bigger than their tanks, says Susan Tellem, the Malibu group's co-founder. But after five years, they can weigh 30 pounds or more, she says. "A fully grown sulcata can weigh close to 200 pounds and can easily move a piano or walk through a typical house or apartment wall," Tellem said. 

Adult sulcatas can live 50 years or more. Males fight when placed together, and females can easily produce 90 eggs a year. Tellem says zoos will not take the cast-off pets, and owners are mistaken if they think they'll sell huge sulcatas for a large profit. "Remaining options are to dump the animal in the wild or give it up for adoption to a rescue group like ours," Tellem said. "But we can only take a few of them once they are huge." The groups are asking the public to stop buying sulcatas as hatchlings. "Overcrowded rescue (groups) will soon run out of space," Tellem said. "Sadly, at that point, euthanasia might be the only recourse."


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## Laura

Animal Shelters arent overrun with them because they send them to rescues. They are not set up to house them. Example: I have 2 i just rescued, literally from the shelter. They were brought in by citizens who found them wandering in the neighborhood. The owners home was forclosed.. anyway.. they were placed a outdoor chainlink dog kennel, fed fruit and veggies. They refused to give them heat because of fire danger. It was in the high forties low fifties at night at that time. They knew they were supposed to be 'soaked' so a few times a day a staff member would pick them up , put them in a tub and then take them out in about 5 minutes. Then more torts came in from the same house.. I large male russian was put in with them because it was thier 'baby' two Red foots also were placed with them. I finally convinced them to move them out, told them what they were, improved the sulcata diet, but they still got not heat. The owner came and got the RF and the Russian, but had no where to take the Sulcatas. 25 and 50 pounds. So I offered to take them. Both males. I had to treat them for RI shortly after I got them. 
Anyway... no, torts are not as bad as dogs and cats. I think most die in thier homes before they get a chance to be rescued.. :-(


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## Jacqui

So much easier in ways to regulate the dogs and cats. Having the "power" of keeping registration papers until "pet quality" animals are spayed or neutered helps a small bit. The fact that it is easy to find a vet to neuter/spay and even free or cheap clinics are popping up all over to help folks with costs. Plus the numbers in each litter are smaller then the numbers can be from just one clutch. Also most places require you to license your dog or cat, offering cheaper rates to those who choose sterilizations, not so with reptiles. We make not having breedable animals the way to go.

Fact is does any body believe having to get a license to breed will stop anybody, except those who would be doing it right any how?


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## floridajake

I own a 7 year old sulcata. I will never breed him for all of the above reasons. It is amazing to me that anyone would want to discard such an amazing animal. I understand that they must be difficult to care up north in the winter. Here in south florida I find my sulcata to be the easiest animal to care for I own, even easier than my dogs and kingsnakes. His food(grass and weeds)is free and his poop looks like horsepoop and turns into fertilizer when it rains. He creates his own shelter(burrow). Basically the only thing I have to do is refresh his water dish daily. I guess that's why there are rarely any large sulcatas for adoption south of orlando. Here in extreme south florida everyone I know who has one absolutely adores it. Mine(Gosder)came to me second hand from New Jersey. I would take more in if the shipping costs weren't so ridiculous. If you are raising a young sulcata and are having second thoughts, please be assured that you will be rewarded for your work if you just find a way to keep it and care for it. If you really can't care for it, please send it down south where it will become a beloved pet and not just get passed on again.


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## Marla

I am a sulcata breeder...I don't make any money..they make the money and the money goes back to them...If it wasn't sulcatas it would be another animal..Like all breeders..you have the good breeder and you have the bad breeder...It breaks my heart to see any animal suffer...Animals are part of my waking day and without them bringing the joy to me on a daily bases I would have no purpose to be here..I share that joy with others by offering my babies given to me by my life long tortoises who are my friends...With that said I really feel animals are here to teach us what we as human need to learn while on earth...The sulcata has saved the lives of many wild tortoises..Without the sulcata are pet stores and rescues would be filled with wild caught tortoises instead...The sulcata is a heroe in many ways...If you feel that you are not a breeder to offer healthy happy animals to the public then you should not breed..If you have room in your heart to rescue and educate you should do that.....Thank You to all the rescues and the work you do...


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## REDFOOTMATT

I am somewhat torn on this issue. My freind Marla above is one of the caring, responsible breeders and I agree with her feeling about the fact that captive bred animals greatly reduce the demand for importation of the wild caught populations. Still I see so many Sulcatas at the trade shows and they are getting cheaper all the time. ($50-$60 for hatchlings) I see people getting them for their small child and buying a 10 gallon tank! You know they don't have a clue what they are getting into. I just try to make myself feel better by thinking that this species will probably not become endangered in the wild due to exportation. I have not experianced the rescue facilities however. Seeing all those Torts in such bad condition might change the way I feel.


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## aktech23

Laura said:


> They were brought in by citizens who found them wandering in the neighborhood.



i found my sulcata walking the streets in arizona. no one ever stepped up to claim it.

I figure it was abandoned. 
The thing is pets tend to be an impulse buy, and a sulcata is a handful.
these two things do not go together.


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## JourneyTort

If you breed then you should also rescue. In my opinion, to be a responsible breeder then one must be responsible for what they produce. If you sell a tort to someone and for whatever reason they no longer can care for it then the breeder should be responsible for that offspring and take the tort back and rehome or keep it. If you can't potentially take care of what you produce then don't keep breeding these torts. 

As a side note, they are selling Sulcata's in stores in Canada which to me is absolutely crazy. You know what is going to happen when these torts get too big to carry in and out of the house during winter!!


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## Jacqui

JourneyTort said:


> If you breed then you should also rescue. In my opinion, to be a responsible breeder then one must be responsible for what they produce. If you sell a tort to someone and for whatever reason they no longer can care for it then the breeder should be responsible for that offspring and take the tort back and rehome or keep it. If you can't potentially take care of what you produce then don't keep breeding these torts.



I found your comment interesting, as that was how I felt when we bred our dogs back when we did some showing. Let's say I bought a Sulcata hatchling from Yvonne (this is all make believe here). The clock moves forward 10 years and I have a 75 lb unmanageable tort. I want Yvonne to take it back now. Question is this: as a responsible breeder is she not only responsible for taking it back , but is she also required to pay the shipping? Or should the buyer have to pay return shipping?


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## Yvonne G

Trying to put myself into the mind-set that I would actually breed a sulcata, then I remembered: I ACTUALLY DID!!!

About 4 years ago, when my sister still lived here, Dudley had broken down his fence and got in with the female Sulcata. As a result, she dug three nests over the summer and deposited eggs. My sister came over one day and saw that I was chopping up eggs in the nest with the shovel. She BEGGED me to let her have an egg, and I gave in. She took three eggs, incubated them and hatched out 3 babies. She then moved up to Oregon, gave one baby away, one died and the third baby is Tony. I have an ad in our adoption section here on the forum trying to find a home for Tony, who is now about 14lbs. Maggie can't keep Tony safe from Bob, her bigger sulcata and is now asking me to take him back. She's not going to ship him back to me, but will bring him on her next trip. And I usually pay for her to rent a car to come here, so I DO actually pay the shipping. This is because I'm into tortoise rescue, though. I don't know if I would take him back if I was only breeding and not rescuing. Thanks for the food-for-thought posts. 

Yvonne


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## JourneyTort

Who is responsible for shipping a returned tort? Should this question really be asked? I would hope the breeder and owner would care enough about the tort to come to an agreement. Like I said before, if you can't be responsible for what you produce then don't produce. Period. Especially this breed of tort. They are so large and require very specific housing needs when they get bigger which reduces the population of people that can provide a 'good' home. I don't see how these torts can be housed sufficiently by the general population when full grown (I know there are some but they would be few and far between, especially if they lived in the northern part of the states). 

I still can't believe they are selling these torts in stores in Canada. 

How many of these guys come into a rescue situation every year? If you consider how many are actually out there, what is the percentage of animals being produced that end up in rescue and/or die of bad husbandry? I would guess it would be pretty high. Then when they end up in the Humane Societies or animal control they don't know enough about them to properly take care of them. 

Just something to think about before you breed your torts.


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## egyptiandan

I'll play devil's advocate here  seeing as I don't have large tortoises, but do breed. 
Say your breeding sulcatas and have say 1.2 and you have enough room for them and maybe a couple of others. You breed and sell some hatchlings. If your policy when you sell is clearly stated that you will take back any unwanted animal when it gets big. Isn't that asking for trouble and making people even more irresponsible. Hey we'll buy from this breeder as she/he will take back my sulcata when it gets big and I know I won't have room for it when it gets big, but I'll buy it anyway.
I just think this makes them an even greater throw away purchase. It gives people to large of an "out", when they should be taking responsibilty for the animal they purchased.
I think if I did take a large tortoise back (and this would be clearly stated with the taking back at the time of purchase) that I'd be charging the person a fee for upkeep of the animal until sold or rehomed.
That would put more responsibilty back on the original buyer. Sulcatas have become the disposible pet of the century and buyers need to be held more resposible and not less resposible for their purchase.

Just how I see it 

Danny


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## Yvonne G

I totally agree with you, Dan, however I'm really afraid that if I don't make it easy for them to return the tortoise to me, they MIGHT just turn it loose someplace. When someone calls me and asks for me to take their turtle or tortoise I bend over backwards to hurry up and go get the animal. People change their minds and who knows what happens to the animal after that?

Yvonne


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## egyptiandan

I can definately see what your saying Yvonne and agree that people tend to do some not bright things when it comes to tortoises.
Just wish it wasn't like this  Not much anyone can do though, but the best you can 

Danny


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## jpeck425

egyptiandan said:


> I can definately see what your saying Yvonne and agree that people tend to do some not bright things when it comes to tortoises.
> Just wish it wasn't like this  Not much anyone can do though, but the best you can
> 
> Danny



This a very difficult question and I'm not sure that there is a right answer to it. I have sulcattas, which I received as rescues, and can definitely appreciate the need to change the path of consumers and disposable pets. However, breeding in captivity is a necessity, if we are going to keep a diverse selection of animals to enjoy in this hobby. Personally, I would love if the only animals removed from the wild were collected by permit for breeding purposes from Zoological Parks or Endangered Species Programs. I think we currently have a pretty wide variety of tortoises available now to make this so. Sometimes gaining experience on the easier, more prolific species to breed can give insight into requirements for breeding more advanced species. 

I think there is a lot of emphasis being placed on the breeders and their responsibilities. I do agree that breeders need to use better judgement and should pick species that are more appropriate as pets to breed. I also feel that there is a huge responsibility on Pet Shops and Herp Vendors to better educate their customers and to offer more appropriate options. I see this all the time that the largest, most inapprpriate animals are the most prolific and therefore the most commonly bred and the cheapest. Examples beyond tortoises are Burmese Pythons, Green Iguanas, Water Monitors, Alligators, etc...If stores and vendors quit purchasing these animals to retail, breeders will go where the money is. We need to educate the public better and promote more appropriate species. 

Reptile Shows and symposiums are a great opportunity to talk to the public. I've found that when someone can actually see, in person, the adult size of these animals and are then shown a better option, with the same benefits, they will usually pick the better option. I used to do school presentations when I had more time and would take a healthy specimen, as well as a deformed one to show what improper care can do. 

Particularly here in America, we have this mind set that "Bigger is Better". We do it with our cars, our fast food and our homes, it's not really a surprise that we do it with our pets too. I think the key is changing this mind set and creating a better market for more apprpriate species. Sulcattas, Iguanas, etc... have their place and can be rewarding pets for the right person. They should just not be the most promoted or cheapest option.

Be well


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## -EJ

I said it once and I'll say it again... I'll take every Sulcata there is to offer... I will either keep them or find a good home for them. There are lots of people willing to take them.

Needless to say... they are not a problem... they are a problem for those who choose to take on the job of 'Rescuing' them.

This debate has not changed in ten years and the situation is not getting worse... it's getting better. It's providing advertisement to those who would never even consider keeping a tortoise as a pet. For many the adoption of a Sulcata is their first tortoise. There is a trend and that trend seems to be in a positive direction.

It just blows my mind how some tortoise keepers see this as a failure... the Sulcata used to be a rare tortoise. To top it off... none if any are taken out of the wild. This is obviously one of the most personable and adaptive tortoises in captivity... outside of the size... it's the perfect pet tortoise.


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## JourneyTort

-EJ said:


> "This debate has not changed in ten years and the situation is not getting worse... it's getting better. It's providing advertisement to those who would never even consider keeping a tortoise as a pet. For many the adoption of a Sulcata is their first tortoise. There is a trend and that trend seems to be in a positive direction."
> 
> In my opinion, that is the most ridiculous statement I have heard. How can it be getting better. You can't tell me there are less or even the same amount of Sulcata in rescue today than there was 10 years ago? I would think the goal would have NO sulcata in rescue. It shouldn't be that easy to obtain a sulcata tort. Having people wait until they become available and work hard at obtaining one would be one way of ciphering out the good homes with the bad (i.e. impulse buyers)
> 
> "It just blows my mind how some tortoise keepers see this as a failure... the Sulcata used to be a rare tortoise. To top it off... none if any are taken out of the wild. This is obviously one of the most personable and adaptive tortoises in captivity... outside of the size... it's the perfect
> pet tortoise."
> 
> You just hit the nail on the head "...outside of the size..." not everyone can deal with the size and these torts should not be made to suffer because they are cute when little but disposable when they get too big.
> 
> It is very admirable of you to take responsibility for all the breeders out there. I wish you every success in your endeavour, at least the Sulcata will find a happy life if they cross your path.


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## TylerStewart

I think EJ _did_ hit the nail on the head. They are a problem for the people who take it upon themselves to "rescue" the tortoises, then they convince a few outspoken people that there's tens of thousands of homeless, abandoned, unwanted tortoises out there that are suffering. Few ideas that any rescue might want to _actually_ attempt (gasp!):

-Quit making the application process so lengthy. If the tortoises are such a burden on you, lighten the load on people trying to give them a good home. You can't expect people to send you 12 photos of their yard with a list of plants that are present as well as their paycheck stubs and social security number and the school their kids go to so that you can make sure it's a suitable home. Work with people a little bit and streamline this. 
-Quit being "seasonal" with your adoptions. It's almost like you want to keep them. 
-Don't be afraid to ship something. There's plenty of people out there looking for low cost pets that can't just drive to your barn in rural Kansas or wherever and pick it up. 
-Make some sort of an effort to MARKET something. For very minimal cost (less than you'll spend feeding it all), you could easily find homes for everything by doing some advertising. 

Someone said it before (maybe Marla??) if it wasn't sulcatas, it would be Russian tortoises or redfoots being imported in much higher numbers from the wild to fill the demand. The fact that many of them die while still babies has nothing to do with it being a sulcata. If the same person was keeping a baby redfoot or a baby russian, it would be no different. 

I also will volunteer to take any available, unwanted tortoises in my area. There are none that I'm aware of in any local shalters or rescues.


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## JourneyTort

TylerStewart said:


> I think EJ _did_ hit the nail on the head. They are a problem for the people who take it upon themselves to "rescue" the tortoises, then they convince a few outspoken people that there's tens of thousands of homeless, abandoned, unwanted tortoises out there that are suffering. Few ideas that any rescue might want to _actually_ attempt (gasp!):
> 
> -Quit making the application process so lengthy. If the tortoises are such a burden on you, lighten the load on people trying to give them a good home. You can't expect people to send you 12 photos of their yard with a list of plants that are present as well as their paycheck stubs and social security number and the school their kids go to so that you can make sure it's a suitable home. Work with people a little bit and streamline this.
> -Quit being "seasonal" with your adoptions. It's almost like you want to keep them.
> -Don't be afraid to ship something. There's plenty of people out there looking for low cost pets that can't just drive to your barn in rural Kansas or wherever and pick it up.
> -Make some sort of an effort to MARKET something. For very minimal cost (less than you'll spend feeding it all), you could easily find homes for everything by doing some advertising.
> 
> Actually they should be that tough when adopting, these torts have every right to live 'hopefully' the rest of their lives being taken care of properly. The problem starts at the beginning of their lives. Anyone with $50 can buy a sulcata. Breeders and sellers of these torts need to be a bit more responsible when it comes to breeding/selling these torts. Like I said before, be responsible for what you produce.
> 
> Someone said it before (maybe Marla??) if it wasn't sulcatas, it would be Russian tortoises or redfoots being imported in much higher numbers from the wild to fill the demand. The fact that many of them die while still babies has nothing to do with it being a sulcata. If the same person was keeping a baby redfoot or a baby russian, it would be no different.
> 
> Okay, sacrifice the sulcata then!!
> 
> I also will volunteer to take any available, unwanted tortoises in my area. There are none that I'm aware of in any local shalters or rescues.



That is also very admirable of you but do you only sell sulcatas in your area or do you sell them nationwide?

I really am not trying to start any arguments and this is just my opinion, but if people keep breeding these torts and selling them to people that don't have a clue as to what they are really purchasing then someone has to take responsibility. I am not saying that you are not responsible for what you sell, I don't know you. Are sulcata's in that much demand that they need to be so many on the market or are cute little hatchling torts in demand? How many full size sulcata's would you be able to sell? My guess would be not too many.


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## TylerStewart

I agree in that they do deserve a happy healthy life in captivity, but these rescues enthusiastically go get tortoises from people as soon as they become 2% difficult for them to maintain, then horde them so they can pat themselves on the back because they're saving the planet. 

You can't possibly expect everyone that produces something to be responsible for it forever. How would a dog breeder or anyone that produces anything _live or not_ possibly do that? By openly giving people the option of returning something at any time in the future, you completely eliminate the need for people to make an educated decision before buying one. 

You're not going to eliminate the demand for baby tortoises, so you might as well focus on educating people towards proper care. 

Not sure why it matters, but I sell nationally and a small percentage locally. Las Vegas is a good place for tortoises, but most people here in the market for one don't know me, and I don't particularly like to sell locally. My website explains which species are better suited to different climates, and takes you through two separate disclaimers about the size and potential yard destruction that comes with the purchase of a sulcata before you buy one. 

As I've said before, I have checked local shelters, and there are no sulcatas or tortoises in them (unless I'm missing one). To compare it to the over-population of dogs and cats is completely innacurate. The fact that somewhere, sometime, someone had to put down a sulcata or two because they were unable to find an appropriate home for it does not mean there's not thousands of people out there that would gladly place it in a good home. Maybe the people that wanted the sulcata that was put down just didn't want to give up their paycheck stubs and social security numbers


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## egyptiandan

Why can't I find these customers that want to give my offspring back 
No one has ever offered to give back any of my hatchlings and anyone that wanted to sell them was asking more money than what I sold them for.
For all the reasons and more that Tyler has mentioned, I have never gotten a tortoise from a rescue. I'm just not good with people telling me what I can and can't do with animals in my possession. I would much rather buy an animal and I have from people I know that want to pare down. 
A friend I know from another forum that had a mismatched pair of Hermanns tortoises needed to sell them. I had told her before that I was interested if she did. She had gotten the female from a petshop. Someone had turned her in and she paid $50 for her. She's not been grown well, but is 8" SCL and very flat. She needed money and said she needed to get $400 for the pair. I didn't bat an eye and told her I'd take them. They have both gone on to produce offspring. I have no problem paying more than someone else paid as long as there are no strings attached.
It is though, without a lot of room, hard to house a full grown male sulcata. I would have to say most people that buy one aren't equipped to do that when they buy a hatchling. Maybe breeders need to hatch sulcatas out at a warmer temperature to produce more females. That would definately help out with the housing end of keeping a sulcata.
Breeders though are a funny lot or is it greedy or maybe egotistical. Most breeders in the day (way back when) didn't want to produce females as that would let other people breed what they are breeding. This definately happened with Marginated tortoises when they were first being bred. Back 25 to 30 years ago you never heard of a female Marginated being sold and I hadn't heard of anyone that raised up a hatchling getting a female. I raised up quite a few and only ever had males. You see a lot more females now for sale with the breeders not caring that other people will be breeding them.

Just my thoughts 

Danny


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## Jacqui

Love some of the points being made and the variety of them.

I had noticed a site for snappers that openly offered to take back all the turtles who grew too big for the owners. I saw this as a person using his head. You sell a small hatchling and let somebody invest their time and money into growing it. Then you get back a big animal to either use as a breeder or sell it to somebody buying animals for either breeders or food. Give the person another hatchling and repeat the process. About the same thing as kids raising calves (or other livestock) or seeing eye dogs.

I agree some rescues do seem to put you thru a huge amount of trouble to get one of their animals. Still I think they are doing it to insure (in their standards) you are the best person for the animal. Doesn't mean it's true and often it does feel like they look hard to find a little flaw in folks, but overall they aren't as bad as most of the dog rescues I have been around.


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## Redfootedboxturtles

This is a great topic ! I think sulcatas are awesome and for the right person they can make very very very good pets. So someone should breed them. But I think that they are mass produced and some times sold with disregard for the animal.


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## Yvonne G

TylerStewart said:


> I agree in that they do deserve a happy healthy life in captivity, but these rescues enthusiastically go get tortoises from people as soon as they become 2% difficult for them to maintain, then horde them so they can pat themselves on the back because they're saving the planet.



Excuse me!! "Horde them"????? I can't wait to find a forever home for the male sulcatas that I take in. And yes, I do rush right over to get them when I receive the call that they don't want them anymore, because if I don't make it easy for them to turn them in, they might just go out into the country and let him go. But keep them for myself? NEVER!!! I have one of my own and that's plenty for me. I live on an acre of land and that's just not enough room to keep all the sulcatas that I take in. I've said it before, it IS hard to find good homes, but its not impossible. The longest I've ever had to keep a sulcata was a month.

Yvonne


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## TylerStewart

Calm down, I wasn't necessarily talking about you. I do know of at least one rescue that gets occasional sulcatas (out of my state), and they don't care to turn them over to other people; yes hording them, until someone makes an "adoption fee" offer that is high enough. Others I see online seem similar, as if they're in no hurry. They certainly aren't actively trying to find homes. But like was said, you can't expect people to invite you into their lives and drop by once a week to check on them just so you can place a tortoise with them (again, not referring to you, just rescues in general). People would rather just go buy one without the hassle if they're paying a fee anyways. I completely understand the concern to find them a good home, but a list of questions, interviews, interrogations etc is just too much.


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## Yvonne G

Naturally, I can only speak for myself, but I THINK that the CTTC adoptions are pretty much like mine. All we want to know for sure is that the tortoise is going to a safe home. We don't care about anything else besides the safe place for the tortoise to live out the rest of its life. And both CTTC and I don't charge any kind of fee.

It sounds to me as if you have had a bad experience with a rescue. But we're not all bad. Most of us are just trying to do right by the animals we take in. (and money or fees aren't an issue. I don't even take donations unless its tortoise food.)

Yvonne


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## TylerStewart

I just don't want to see this turn into a "protest sulcatas - or sulcata breeding" thread. They didn't do anything wrong. 

Someone needs to stick up for them


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## JourneyTort

TylerStewart said:


> I agree in that they do deserve a happy healthy life in captivity, but these rescues enthusiastically go get tortoises from people as soon as they become 2% difficult for them to maintain, then horde them so they can pat themselves on the back because they're saving the planet.
> 
> Rescues are not all that bad. I believe there are a few that could possibly rescue for egotistical purposes but sooner or later it will catch up with them, don't you think? How can they house a lot of sulcata properly? Most rescues, I am sure, are doing it for one thing and one thing only for the tort. At least someone is looking out for these guys that breeders profit off. Just on these Tort lists I have read people owning sulcata and having to re-home/sell because of circumstances (the torts just happened to be quite a bit bigger) and then a year later they are back at it again with hatchlings and they don't have the property to house when they are older so hang in there and maybe you can rescue these guys (tic). Do they learn from their mistakes? Sulcata's are a dime a dozen and are just too easy to obtain.
> 
> You can't possibly expect everyone that produces something to be responsible for it forever. How would a dog breeder or anyone that produces anything _live or not_ possibly do that? By openly giving people the option of returning something at any time in the future, you completely eliminate the need for people to make an educated decision before buying one.
> 
> I do expect everyone that produces torts be responsible for it for as long as they (the breeder) lives. Since you brought up the topic of dog breeders, believe me Ã¢â‚¬Å“responsibleÃ¢â‚¬Â dog breeders do expect to be contacted and the dog returned if circumstances change with the dog owner. They take FULL responsibility for what they produce. It is even in their contract to puppy buyers. I know as I have signed 3 such contracts from 3 different breeders. I wouldnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t expect anything less. And these RESPONSIBLE breeders donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t breed for the sake of breeding they usually have a waiting list and homes for their pups as well as breeding for themselves first and amazingly enough there is not a bunch of adult dogs dumped at the breedersÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ doors when these puppies turn into adults. Dog breeders that donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t take responsibility for what they produce and produce in mass quantities are called puppy mills and they are the lowest of the low (i.e. scum). So people have proven to be able to make an educated decision for themselves and provide the proper care for the animals life.
> 
> You're not going to eliminate the demand for baby tortoises, so you might as well focus on educating people towards proper care.
> 
> How about pushing smaller torts in their view together with education rather than the sulcata? Smaller torts are much easier to rehome, transport, etc.
> 
> Not sure why it matters, but I sell nationally and a small percentage locally. Las Vegas is a good place for tortoises, but most people here in the market for one don't know me, and I don't particularly like to sell locally. My website explains which species are better suited to different climates, and takes you through two separate disclaimers about the size and potential yard destruction that comes with the purchase of a sulcata before you buy one.
> 
> It matters if you sell locally or nationally because you stated you are willing to take in rescues locally but there doesn't seem to be any (after having said you mainly sell nationally), why wouldnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t you rescue nationally, you may even be rescuing a sulcata that you produce.
> 
> As I've said before, I have checked local shelters, and there are no sulcatas or tortoises in them (unless I'm missing one). To compare it to the over-population of dogs and cats is completely innacurate. The fact that somewhere, sometime, someone had to put down a sulcata or two because they were unable to find an appropriate home for it does not mean there's not thousands of people out there that would gladly place it in a good home. Maybe the people that wanted the sulcata that was put down just didn't want to give up their paycheck stubs and social security numbers
> 
> I never compared it to the over-population of dogs and cats as it would probably never get that bad as the torts would die in a shelter situation because they arenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t equipped nor do they have the know how to look after a full grown tort.
> 
> I ask again, how many full grown sulcata are you able to sell compared to hatchlings??


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## TylerStewart

All I'm saying is that if someone was to dump 5 adult sulcatas on me, I could (if I had to) find good, suitable homes for them all within a week. It might take shipping to do that or it may not, but it's not like there's no suitable homes for them. 

_I do expect everyone that produces torts be responsible for it for as long as they (the breeder) lives_

What I said was that _by openly giving people the option of returning something at any time in the future, you completely eliminate the need for people to make an educated decision before buying one,_ and that is a completely true statement. There's a difference between taking back a tortoise that someone offers, and telling them before purchase that you will take it back if they can't handle it. On top of this, you have no way of knowing that it's even the tortoise you produced in the first place. Even with excellent record keeping, you would very likely lose track of names, or tortoises would trade hands. You would then essentially be volunteering to take back any sulcata, with no way to verify that it even came from you. The size and difficulties (if any) wouldn't show up for many years down the road. 

_I ask again, how many full grown sulcata are you able to sell compared to hatchlings??_

Well, since I have only a few larger sized tortoises that I would be willing to part with (and many more babies that I'm actively selling), it's not a fair comparison. I was recently selling 2 young adult (15-16") male sulcatas on Kingsnake; one sold about a month ago for $375, the other sold yesterday for $350, both to good homes in warm climates. If there was some reason I needed them gone immediately, all it would take is a lower price, combined with the marketing I'm already doing. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking rescues at all. Someone needs to be there to fill that task, and I appreciate that there's people willing to give their time and money for that. I myself have donated time, money and supplies to reptile rescues, as well as donating hundreds of pounds of dog food to animal shelters locally in the past year; I just don't think that sulcatas are the problem that they are often made out to be.


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## Yvonne G

TylerStewart said:


> I just don't want to see this turn into a "protest sulcatas - or sulcata breeding" thread. They didn't do anything wrong.
> 
> Someone needs to stick up for them



I doubt we would do that. We have a forum-member here named Marla who breeds Sulcatas. I have never seen anyone bad mouth her for doing that. 

Yvonne


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## Marla

Did someone mention my name...lol...Yes we all walk a fine line between Rescue, Breeder, Broker, Pet Store, and Pet Owner...There really is no problem with any of these...and they all are very needed..Its the people that make it or brake it...Sulcata's just happen to be the one breed that does the best as far as breeding (the **** roach of tortoises)I didn't say that....I have found with working rescue with many animals..dogs, reptiles, horses, birds, and ferrets, I did see hoarding alot and people just looking for free animals(it wasn't about the animal)...I stopped working with rescue because it was all about the money with MOST people..I didn't mind the people who wanted to feel like they were saving a little of the planet but the greed turned me off..So now I just maintain my little corner of the world and take in some and place some and sell some..I am only called a breeder because my animals like sex..lol..which give me babies which pays the vet and feed bill.....
I want to remind everyone that the over populated sulcata market has a long term impact on other tortoise breeds...because these wonderful animals give the demanding market place cheap babies for the customers...Many many breeds in the wild in other countries are left alone..If people could not buy sulcata's they would only buy others and the plight of many close to endanger tortoises would be depleted..Our sulcatas are sacrificing themselves for the wild tortoises all over the world.. Geezzzzz that was a mouth full..


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## egyptiandan

I'm going to have to disagree a bit about sulcatas helping the plight of other endangered tortoises Marla. 
Having captive born sulcatas available is definately helping the wild populations of sulcatas, but it isn't helping any of the other tortoises.
Sulcatas appeal to the first time tortoise keeper, but not a keeper that has branched out into other species. Until each particular species is bred in enough quantity to satisfy demand, than wild caught animals will still be bought. That's just the nature of the beast that is tortoise keeping.

Danny


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## Marla

This is true to some degree but you must agree with me when I say that the keeper who has branched out to other species is very few compared to the parent wanting to satisfy their child's interest in the small creatures..Yes many many parents want these tortoises and at a low price and only our sweet sulcata can fill this market leaving the wild caught market of our other tortoises a few more days in the wild as their demand is weakened by our sulcata market..I can only say I wish the other variety of tortoises produced as well as our sulcatas did....Its a losing battle for our wild caught and it maybe the breeder that keeps these endangered tortoises alive for the future generations..Humans have done alot worse then just collect these animals..They have destroyed environments to the point that if not for the collector we may have none...Its a catch two kinda thing don't ya think....What's the long term solution here and not the short term quick fix?


egyptiandan said:


> I'm g oing to have to disagree a bit about sulcatas helping the plight of other endangered tortoises Marla.
> Having captive born sulcatas available is definately helping the wild populations of sulcatas, but it isn't helping any of the other tortoises.
> Sulcatas appeal to the first time tortoise keeper, but not a keeper that has branched out into other species. Until each particular species is bred in enough quantity to satisfy demand, than wild caught animals will still be bought. That's just the nature of the beast that is tortoise keeping.
> 
> Danny


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## kevantheman35

What about looking at it this way. If the sulcata market was not even bigger then the creatures themselves like it is today, then the market and, therefore breeders might focus on some of the other species who's populations are much lower and their population would skyrocket. I dont know, its late. Just food for thought lol


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## egyptiandan

When your talking rare and endangered tortoises your talking much more money than what you could get for a sulcata. So there is that incentive to import them. Your parent looking to buy a cute tortoise for their child would most likely not even be exposed to that end of the industry, because 99.9% of petshops don't have rare or expensive tortoises.
Even with all the CB sulcatas around it hasn't stopped the importation of Russian tortoises. 
Sulcatas are so prolific because they have such large clutches. The only other tortoise that produces large clutches is the Asian giant tortoise. Even Aldabra and Galapagos tortoises have smaller clutches.
It takes more females and a longer time period with every other species to equal what one female sulcata can do.
That would depend on what we are trying to fix. 

Danny


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## Marla

Yes yes yes,,Sulcata's have not stopped the Russian's from coming in..and some Golden Greeks as well..But the sulcata's have been there to fill that space for even the wealthiest of buyers..and Russians or Greek still cost more and at the rate of collecting of the Russians we need only the tortoise educated to buy those...The very rare endangered tortoises are high dollar enough to keep most people from buying them which in turn encourages breeders to breed and share babies with the collectors at even higher prices...In turn with habitats being destroyed the breeder becomes very important....Sulcatas are a poor mans tortoise and even the poor need to enjoy the wonderful joy a tortoise brings..(poor is not really poor if you live in America)
Back to the wealthy and sulcata breeding..This tortoise is sought out by many because people like big ... Most people who buy in pet stores or other places and don't know how big they get..really don't care and sad to say most of these babies do die..But for every child that gets one of these pets the tortoise world is now opened up in their ever growing minds...(education is good) With the prices dropping on the sulcata's.. Breeders are backing off and selling to other countries or just stop breeding them altogether..Some are working on mutatations..I must say I would love to here more about these over runned rescue places and how many of these creatures come in, in say a year and what the placing in homes turn over rate is..


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## Yvonne G

To add to what's already been said about breeding the higher-end species: Most other tortoises, especially the more expensive and rarer tortoises don't breed readily in captivity. I've been trying to have success at allowing the Manouria to breed for over 10 years and every time there's just something that wasn't quite right. This year I was lucky enough to have one baby hatch out of over 100 eggs. I'm sure this is the way it is with many of the rarer species. Its very difficult to have successful breedings in captivity. My fingers are crossed for next year to be MY year!

Yvonne


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## Meg90

oh my goodness! One out of 100!

Congrats. are their pics up of the baby?

(sorry to be off topic, I couldn't resist)


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## Maggie Cummings

Meg90 said:


> oh my goodness! One out of 100!
> 
> Congrats. are their pics up of the baby?
> 
> (sorry to be off topic, I couldn't resist)



I just posted a picture of her entitled here's Emmie. Just click on the attachment while I follow directions to see how to post the actual picture instead of the link...

Here's Emmie...one out of 100


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## Marla

maggie3fan said:


> Meg90 said:
> 
> 
> 
> oh my goodness! One out of 100!
> 
> Congrats. are their pics up of the baby?
> 
> (sorry to be off topic, I couldn't resist)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just posted a picture of her entitled here's Emmie. Just click on the attachment while I follow directions to see how to post the actual picture instead of the link...
> 
> Here's Emmie...one out of 100
> 
> Congrats..What a beautiful baby
Click to expand...


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## Maggie Cummings

Sorry...I didn't mean for that picture to post twice...Can ya tell I'm new at posting pictures??? Josh go ahead and delete one if you want to...


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## twtraudio

I personally dont think breeding them is worng as long as the right care and general info is given at time of purchase. Unfortunatley the people buying from breeders buy in lots and sell them in their pet stores and could care less what the customer needs to know about them ! than they end up with me struggling for their life and i have to watch it and pray for their recovery ! 

I dont mind one bit getting them just hate to see the terrible shape they are usaully in when i go pick them up and the owners not knowing what they had gotten themselves into. I once was a victim of this myself when i got first sulcata and got all the wrong info but i guess its partly the consumers fault too for not doing the research themselves too. Just wish people would get all the info first before getting any kind of tortoise.


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## SFCMARK

The bottom line is the babies are what most people want. They are cute and small. I blame the individuals buying them that do not do research as to what they are actually buying! I see it all the time, and actually just had a lady call me 2 days ago. She told me her local pet store woudl not sell her a baby tortoise, and told her to contact a rescue because there are soo many tortoises out there that need homes. That is why she called me. When I asked her what kind of tortoise she was looking for, she said a Sulcata. I asked her "do you know how large they get?" She had no idea!!!! When I told her, she about had a heart attack! Again, someone wanting to buy a cute baby tortoise, but has no idea what they are getting into.


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## Laura

Why breed animals with the intention of finding them good home when we KNOW that the mass majority DIE young?!


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## nrfitchett4

I'm confused here. Where can you find a CB hatchling for $50? Not at the petstore, they are charging $150 here in S.A. 
I do wonder what percentage of sulcata's die young versus other pets. If there is demand, there will be supply. If not you, then someone else. The best you can do is educate.
FYI: I google reptile rescues in San Antonio and pretty much come up blank. Not sure if there are any rescues available here. Seems to be a couple thousand cats and dogs though.


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## -EJ

hit the reptile shows and local turtle and tortoise clubs. You can either get them for nothing or less than $50. 

If you are in San Antonio and you have property you are a prime candidate for all the free sulcatas you can handle... not kidding.

Let me know your setup and contact info... 



nrfitchett4 said:


> I'm confused here. Where can you find a CB hatchling for $50? Not at the petstore, they are charging $150 here in S.A.
> I do wonder what percentage of sulcata's die young versus other pets. If there is demand, there will be supply. If not you, then someone else. The best you can do is educate.
> FYI: I google reptile rescues in San Antonio and pretty much come up blank. Not sure if there are any rescues available here. Seems to be a couple thousand cats and dogs though.


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## dmmj

IMO this would seem to be a point in WC vs CB I doubt very few if any sulc. are being imported anymore? as for rescuing I do rescue smaller torts and turtles i nmy neighboorhood. A friend of mine who lives in the same city rescued his sulc. (xena) who we just figured out this year is a male, from the local railyard I think someone let him go in hopes he would be found I gues? sounds pretty bad to me. As to bredding I would obviously see a reduction in sulc breeding but how do you enforce something liek this? sterilize them? like calif just passed, IMHO rules liek that just punish the law abiding and the law breakers wont follow the rules anyways. (yes my male dog is now nuetered) Remember when you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns. well that is my 2 cents worth.


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## Laura

Calif has not passed a mandatory neuter law for dogs... yet.. its being fought.. its written poorly. However.. there are Citys and Counties that have...
I wish it was easy to neuter a Tort! That was one of the first questions i asked on this forum.. My thought was that it would make housing males together much easier... not to mention prevent breeding of some.. 
A law like that is hard to enforce and only hurts the already law abiding people anyway.. Its like charging $150 for a license versus $20 for a neutered dog.. the people with the dogs who are breeding and causing the problems in shelters.. dont license! Go to just about any shelter and what is the majority breed....Pits and Pit mixes..
CLimbs off soapbox...


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## -EJ

It is very easy to neuter a tortoise. It can cost as little as $150... the younger the easier.



Laura said:


> Calif has not passed a mandatory neuter law for dogs... yet.. its being fought.. its written poorly. However.. there are Citys and Counties that have...
> I wish it was easy to neuter a Tort! That was one of the first questions i asked on this forum.. My thought was that it would make housing males together much easier... not to mention prevent breeding of some..
> A law like that is hard to enforce and only hurts the already law abiding people anyway.. Its like charging $150 for a license versus $20 for a neutered dog.. the people with the dogs who are breeding and causing the problems in shelters.. dont license! Go to just about any shelter and what is the majority breed....Pits and Pit mixes..
> CLimbs off soapbox...


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## TylerStewart

I can think of much more productive things to do with $150 if the ultimate goal is saving the planet 

I'm pleased to say that the cheapest sulcatas at the Pomona reptile show earlier this month were sold by Reptile Depot for $59 each. I did my part by selling mine for $70.


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## -EJ

You have to stop and think... that's a retailer... he probably bought them from someone else... that's scary.



TylerStewart said:


> I can think of much more productive things to do with $150 if the ultimate goal is saving the planet
> 
> I'm pleased to say that the cheapest sulcatas at the Pomona reptile show earlier this month were sold by Reptile Depot for $59 each. I did my part by selling mine for $70.


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## Yvonne G

Its always a crap-shoot to put a tortoise under anesthesia. Some tortoises survive the surgery just fine, but can't recover from the anesthesia. 

Yvonne


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## -EJ

You don't have to tell me... I lost one Aldabra during the sexing of them. There was 21 and I don't blame the vet. Some anesthesias are safer than others.

Again... it is an extremely safe procedure.



emysemys said:


> Its always a crap-shoot to put a tortoise under anesthesia. Some tortoises survive the surgery just fine, but can't recover from the anesthesia.
> 
> Yvonne


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## nrfitchett4

-EJ said:


> hit the reptile shows and local turtle and tortoise clubs. You can either get them for nothing or less than $50.
> 
> If you are in San Antonio and you have property you are a prime candidate for all the free sulcatas you can handle... not kidding.
> 
> Let me know your setup and contact info...
> 
> 
> 
> nrfitchett4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm confused here. Where can you find a CB hatchling for $50? Not at the petstore, they are charging $150 here in S.A.
> I do wonder what percentage of sulcata's die young versus other pets. If there is demand, there will be supply. If not you, then someone else. The best you can do is educate.
> FYI: I google reptile rescues in San Antonio and pretty much come up blank. Not sure if there are any rescues available here. Seems to be a couple thousand cats and dogs though.
Click to expand...


not saying that I am trying to set up a tortoise rescue (though maybe in the future). I was just researching sulcatas as a pet and was coming up blank. I finally found a breeder in Waxahachie, Tx (south of Dallas) and his adults are amazing looking. 
I just found it amazing that so many people are against the breeding and I couldn't find one adult or baby on craigslist in San Antonio or Austin. Like you said, we are prime climate to keep them outdoors here (most years). that damn global warming is making it too cold lately!!!



TylerStewart said:


> I can think of much more productive things to do with $150 if the ultimate goal is saving the planet
> 
> I'm pleased to say that the cheapest sulcatas at the Pomona reptile show earlier this month were sold by Reptile Depot for $59 each. I did my part by selling mine for $70.



My daughter spotted it at our pet store, which takes wonderful care of it's animals, but the mark up on basic supplies is outrageous. usually 2x what I can get it for on reptile direct.
My point was that in a climate suitable to them, I couldn't find any local breeders. There is a large reptile show coming in March, but I didn't want to wait that long and was going to buy online before I found a breeder in dallas.


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## -EJ

There are not so many against the breeding of these animals... but... there are a number of... folks... who are vocal against the practice... very big difference.



nrfitchett4 said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> hit the reptile shows and local turtle and tortoise clubs. You can either get them for nothing or less than $50.
> 
> If you are in San Antonio and you have property you are a prime candidate for all the free sulcatas you can handle... not kidding.
> 
> Let me know your setup and contact info...
> 
> 
> 
> nrfitchett4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm confused here. Where can you find a CB hatchling for $50? Not at the petstore, they are charging $150 here in S.A.
> I do wonder what percentage of sulcata's die young versus other pets. If there is demand, there will be supply. If not you, then someone else. The best you can do is educate.
> FYI: I google reptile rescues in San Antonio and pretty much come up blank. Not sure if there are any rescues available here. Seems to be a couple thousand cats and dogs though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> not saying that I am trying to set up a tortoise rescue (though maybe in the future). I was just researching sulcatas as a pet and was coming up blank. I finally found a breeder in Waxahachie, Tx (south of Dallas) and his adults are amazing looking.
> I just found it amazing that so many people are against the breeding and I couldn't find one adult or baby on craigslist in San Antonio or Austin. Like you said, we are prime climate to keep them outdoors here (most years). that damn global warming is making it too cold lately!!!
> 
> 
> 
> TylerStewart said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can think of much more productive things to do with $150 if the ultimate goal is saving the planet
> 
> I'm pleased to say that the cheapest sulcatas at the Pomona reptile show earlier this month were sold by Reptile Depot for $59 each. I did my part by selling mine for $70.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My daughter spotted it at our pet store, which takes wonderful care of it's animals, but the mark up on basic supplies is outrageous. usually 2x what I can get it for on reptile direct.
> My point was that in a climate suitable to them, I couldn't find any local breeders. There is a large reptile show coming in March, but I didn't want to wait that long and was going to buy online before I found a breeder in dallas.
Click to expand...


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## carrilac

This is the first IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m seeing this thread and I wish I would have seen it weeks ago. It took me a little over 3 months to decide on a tortoise species and bring home a hatchling. I read up on every species out there. The whole time I was trying to decide I had people pressuring me into getting a sulcatta. A reptile breeder told me it would take 10 years for a sulcatta to get 20 pounds. 
A friend of my husbandÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s (a lizard breeder) was also trying to talk us into buying a sulcatta. Every time I had an argument why not to get one, there was a response such as; they are perfect for So Cal, it takes them years to get really big, you can sell them for a lot of money when they out grow your yard. 
I spoke with our friend days after bringing home our little cherry head redfoot. Apparently he had just given up his 2 sulcattas. He stated that their poop was the size of salad plates and he couldnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t get a handle on it in his small back yard. His large dogs were eating it and getting sick in the house. His pregnant wife, totally grossed out, said it was her or the torts. 
I was floored by his story. Why was he suggesting we purchase something that he could not get a handle on himself?


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