# Leopard X Sulcata hybrid torts will be at Pomona Show! what a sight to see!!



## spikethebest (Jan 7, 2010)

Yet another reason you HAVE TO go to the show this weekend if you live anywhere in a 5 hour driving distance of Los Angeles, California.

There is a seller at the show and he will have the following... this is a copy/paste from his kingsnake ad... I am NOT the seller. 

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I have four very rare hybrid leopard X sulcata tortoises...The father is a G.p.pardalis Leopard tortoise that is 100% HET HYPO from Wanda Patterson's Sunset hypo leopard tortoise line and the mother is a 100% HET for Ivory T+ Albino Sulcata from Richard Fifes Ivory line.. This makes these babies possible double HETs....Be the first to make sunglow tortoises.... 

500.00 each or 1600.00 for all four!!! 

They will be at Super Reptile Show in Pomona CA Jan 9th and 10th at my table "REPTILE ODYSSEY"


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## ChiKat (Jan 7, 2010)

That's crazy, I didn't know people bred hybrid tortoises. They are pretty cool looking.
Only $1600 for all four? Maybe I'll have to buy them!


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## dmmj (Jan 7, 2010)

I have heard of those hybrids before but never actuallyu seen one, does anyone know if they are sterile or fertile? not planning on buying one myself, I am a racist when it comes to turtle and tortoise genes myself, I was just curious.


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## f burkart (Jan 7, 2010)

i dont like the idea of morphs especially in tortoise


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## chandlerledray (Jan 7, 2010)

Oh wow! How cool is that? They are veryy cute ;] 
If i didn't live on the other side of the country I'd definitely pay a visit.


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## Traveller (Jan 13, 2010)

Cute factor galore, but not sure I agree with this?
Wonder how long it will take before we see this in Canada?
When we do I'm sure the price will be through the roof.


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## GBtortoises (Jan 13, 2010)

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why someone would want to dilute two different species by cross breeding and ending up with a tortoise that is neither.

Actually, I can think of two reasons: money and notarity.

Granted, neither Sulcata or Leopards are rare as compared to some species but I still hate to see them become the playground oddities.

Guess I'm just too much of a purist. I just think the original form should be well preserved.


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## kbaker (Jan 13, 2010)

GBtortoises said:


> I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why someone would want to dilute two different species by cross breeding and ending up with a tortoise that is neither.
> 
> Actually, I can think of two reasons: money and notarity.
> 
> ...



I am not replying to debate the topic. I've bought tortoises from that Breeder and talked to him on the phone. It was not his intent to have this happen, but his male jumped pens and you all know how the story goes. (And I do not believe this breeder is selling them for big money or notarity.)

In general, I am for keeping things "pure". It's hard enough believing people now and then to add genes to complicate things. 

The Sulcata is a unique situation. They are one of the best pets to have. They have many great qualities and a couple bad ones. As a pet tortoise, what if you could improve on it? They are not dogs or domesticated, but what if you could improve the pet tortoise like that?

Sulcata have "basically" one pattern and one color (Yes, I know ivory and albinos exist). What if you could add a little color and a pattern to the shell? Some peppering to the arms/legs and head?? What if your sulcata did not dig up your yard? What if it was half the size when full grown? What if the eggs did not go through dipause and it was not a Leopard tortoise?

OK...the other side of the coin...the color/pattern may not be attractive; they dig more; it grew twice the size; the eggs still needed dipause...

My point is there are some interest in hybrids and if handled right, it can be a good thing. Check out the last sulcata I hatched. I am more concerned with preventing split/irregular scutes and defects then the potential of developing a great pet tortoise.


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## Tom (Jan 13, 2010)

I met that guy. He was very nice and knowledgeable. I almost bought a regular sulcata hatchling from him. Still might. However, I don't like hybrids of any sort. Selectively bred color morphs within a species? No problem. Hybrids? Never! No way, no how. I've seen this in birds, fish, insects, and other reptiles. I disagree with it every time. Hybrids are an abomination. Our captive species are too precious and its too hard to get our government to ALLOW us to bring in anything new. Hybrids are a bad idea and should be discouraged whenever possible.


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## GBtortoises (Jan 14, 2010)

kbaker-

Improve on mother nature? Aren't most people attracted to a certain species, because they are as they are? 

You want color and pattern, no digging, half the adult size--almost sounds like you might want a Hermann's or other Mediterranean tortoise that is a bit less than half the size of a Sulcata with all the other traits and more. 

Pet shop tortoise? The sound of that just makes me shudder! I hope that no tortoise species is ever developed solely to be sold in pet shops. Besides, there already is one (unfortunately). It's called a Russian tortoise. Every Mega Mart pet shop now has them. 

No argument here bud, it's a free country (thankfully) and you're allowed to keep and breed anything you want as far as I'm concerned. But I will always speak out against hybrid tortoises. I see no value whatsoever in creating them. 

As for the breeder who's Sulcata "jumped the fence". It's interesting that he is now cashing in on what was in my opinion irresponsibility on his part. If he kept Sulcatas for any time at all whe knows full well their strength and capabilities and should plan to prevent escapes. 

Now that he has found that he can make money on his oddities what will prevent his Sulcata from "jumping the fence" again and and again?

No argument, not debating either. Just answering your questions and stating some opinion.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 14, 2010)

Don't mean for this to continue any arguments, BUT...

Looking at the pictures, I see a pretty small MALE leopard and a larger female sulcata.

In my opinion (I can't possible KNOW because I didn't see it) the MALE tortoise, which was the leopard, would not have jumped the fence. I had two male leopards here for a year or so, in with 4 females. They were the mildest male tortoises of any breed that I'm familiar with. No way they would have ever tried to push or climb a fence.

I also had a very large female sulcata here for a few months. She was bigger than Dudley at that time. She never tried to push or climb her fence either.

*in my opinion* the tortoises' owner was just saying that jumped the fence thing to put oil on what might have been troubled waters. The calming factor, so to speak. I don't believe it.


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## -EJ (Jan 14, 2010)

Dude... these are nowhere near as 'rare' as they used to be.

Also... why is a mutt a comodity? I would like to have a few but I'll wait to produce my own.



spikethebest said:


> Yet another reason you HAVE TO go to the show this weekend if you live anywhere in a 5 hour driving distance of Los Angeles, California.
> 
> There is a seller at the show and he will have the following... this is a copy/paste from his kingsnake ad... I am NOT the seller.
> 
> ...


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## SunsetHypo (Mar 9, 2010)

I wonder if this is how the the Giant Somalian leopard tortoises came about. Crossbreeding in the wild. I have heard from Jerry Fife that in Africa some of these leopards become so big they are mistaken for Sulcata, as color fades with time.


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## goodsmeagol (Apr 13, 2010)

From a genetic standpoint:
All dog breeds are of the same species.
A Great Dane can not naturally mate with a Chihuahua, but their genes are viable to artificially inseminate.
Their offspring are fertile, making them the same species scientifically speaking.

I wonder how far separated the genes of the Sully and Leo are? Anyone know how far back their common ancestor is?
What do the people who argue against hybrids think about closer related torts?


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## Itort (Apr 13, 2010)

They may be 'mules'. I myself see nothing great about them besides the novelty.


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## Maggie Cummings (Apr 13, 2010)

I personally don't think the parents look big enough to breed...Now I am not a breeder and don't know much about it, but I thought they needed to be a certain size to be sexually mature???


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## dmmj (Apr 14, 2010)

I just hope the male is the smaller tort.


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## moswen2 (Apr 24, 2010)

it's obviously been a while since i've been on here, and i've missed my forum so much! sorry for disturbing old posts, but i'm not going to lie, these guys are cute!! i specifically remember being agahst (sp?) when i read a post about someone's friend trying to breed a redfoot with a radiated, but radiateds are rare and bla bla bla.... i'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around how this happend, but "mutt" or not, these guys are CUTE!!! and i'm not going to lie even further, if these guys continue to be available in a few years when i get my babie's all settled in to their new homes, i might just put money down for one of them.... it would be interesting, from a curious person's point of view, to see what it looked like all grown up. but i would never, ever, intentionally cross breed two species of tortoise, and my little one would have his/her own pen and i would never breed it. i agree with tom, you need to keep what's pure pure-- even though i am contributing to the hybridizing of the two species by buying one i guess!!!


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## Terry Allan Hall (May 16, 2010)

Kinda like "designer dog breeds" (my in-laws have a "Labradooble", which is a Labrador/Standard Poodle X...paid $1200 for him, too!)... 

Folks used to call 'em "mutts" and either sell 'em for $10 or give 'em away!


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