# How soon after laying can/should a female Sulcata be bred again?



## Tank'sMom (Apr 10, 2016)

Greetings! New to the breeding forum, but I'm sure I know some of you from the Sulcata Forum.
Let me try to keep this quick.
Background: I've had a large male Sulcata, over 100 pounds, for a few years now. He is about 19 years old and keeps to himself.
About 2 1/2 months ago I "rescued", for a pretty penny I might add, a 50 pound 10 year old female. She arrived gravid. One of the reasons I rescued her was because the kid who had her was keeping her with 3 males, in a small area. She was pretty beat up when she first arrived, but now is well adjusted and friendly.
She laid a clutch about a week ago. I was somewhat prepared but had given up because I was expecting eggs within a month of arrival.
Anyhoo... She did lay, and smashed all but 4 of the eggs in the process. I am currently incubating the eggs, but due to cracks, rushed set up and now mold... I'm a little concerned.
Now that I have all the things I need to breed and incubate, I am interested in giving it a go.
They had been introduced before, we are doing renovations on our yard and pens and my husband stuck him in with her, without consulting me. Nothing happened. They got along just fine. Ate together, no aggression, no breeding attempts. Could that have been because she was gravid?
They live in separate pens on either side of my house. 
Aside from making some improvements, somehow, advice welcomed, to make the soil more suitable for nesting, I'm good to go! She didn't dig much of a hole last time and this resulted in her smashing up about 6-8 eggs. 
So, what next? When can I "introduce" them again?


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## Tank'sMom (Apr 12, 2016)

Nobody?
Ok, well I put them together yesterday. No action yet.... Nada.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 12, 2016)

She probably won't be receptive to his advances for a month or so.


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## dmmj (Apr 12, 2016)

are you planning on breeding her?


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## Tank'sMom (Apr 12, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> She probably won't be receptive to his advances for a month or so.


Problem is, he's not making any advances. She just laid last week, but was a different male. He has never seen another Sulcata, much less a female. A few months ago he was humping everything in sight, but that stopped. Is it a seasonal thing???


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## Tank'sMom (Apr 12, 2016)

dmmj said:


> are you planning on breeding her?


The short answer, yes. I rescued her from a situation where she was kept in a small area with 3 other males. She arrived just over 2 months ago really beat up. She laid a clutch last week. 
I was reluctant to introduce them because of this, but he has been very docile towards her. ....too docile. He's not making any moves!
She seems fine with him, and he with her. But they mostly ignore each other. 
After she laid last week, and I ended with the "breeding bug". The last clutch didn't turn out so well, but I now want to give it another shot. 
Is it too soon?


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## Sara G. (Apr 12, 2016)

I would think it's too soon. Since she just laid a clutch last week.
Plus if she hasn't had the best time of it, I'd take more time to make sure she's healthy and comfortable before tossing her in with males.
But I'm not a breeder and that's just my personal, unprofessional opinion.


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## Tank'sMom (Apr 13, 2016)

Sara G. said:


> I would think it's too soon. Since she just laid a clutch last week.
> Plus if she hasn't had the best time of it, I'd take more time to make sure she's healthy and comfortable before tossing her in with males.
> But I'm not a breeder and that's just my personal, unprofessional opinion.


I agree with that. The thing is though, they get on just fine. No fighting, nothing. He is very gentle with her. She did just lay last week, but she's been here with me for over 2 months. She is very healthy, happy and doesn't seem to mind him one bit. I can tell she's used to being with other torts because she has no problem going right up to him. He's the one who is more "freaked out" by her. He's never seen another tort before her. 
They have a big area and there's a "house" that she can go in, sleeps in, that he can't fit in, if she wanted to get away. 
If they were fighting or he was ramming her, I'd totally separate them. I just wanted to see what would happen, I hear all these stories about males going crazy around females, but nothing like that has happened. So, I guess right now they are just getting to know each other?
I'm wondering if this is normal behavior???


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## dmmj (Apr 13, 2016)

my best guess would be he's not sexually mature yet. 
(Of course that could be used to describe most men  )


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## Sara G. (Apr 13, 2016)

As long as she's not stressed then I guess it's okay. But personally I wouldn't let them breed yet. I'd give her ample time to recover.
I know if I was a tortoise who just laid eggs, I wouldn't want to do it again just yet.


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## SarahChelonoidis (Apr 13, 2016)

They also don't just lay a single clutch after being breed - if she just laid eggs she could still have another fertilized clutch (or more) gestating inside her. A single successful mating could last her more than a year of viable egg laying.

I would personally not keep this new tortoise in contact with your big male just yet. Quarantine for diseases and physical injury prevention should be followed.


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## Tom (Apr 13, 2016)

So many elements to this question…

They can breed constantly. There is no down time after a clutch. I had one male that bred 15+ times a day and the male his sibling would only breed 3 times a week. Also, sulcata females can store sperm and make fertile clutches for months after a single breeding. Leopard females can store it for 5 years.

Some males are obsessive breeders and some are just casual about it once in a while. This can change depending on mood, weather, hormones, etc. These two should never be left alone without someone home. He could kill her in minutes after ignoring her for months. They should never be kept in pairs.

Why do you want to breed her? A 50 pound female can produce 100 babies a year. What will you do with all those babies? This is for the sake of conversation. It matters not to me whether you make sulcata babies or not, I'm just curious about why, and if you really understand what you are getting into. Do you know how much work it is to incubate, hatch, raise, soak, house, feed and try to sell 100 babies a year?

Different vets and keepers recommend different amounts of time for quarantine. I've not seen anyone recommend less than 3 months, and my vet recommends 12 months "if I care about the animals I'm mixing…".

All of this is up for discussion. Please ask lots of questions.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 13, 2016)

Here's my opinion on breeding your PET sulcata just for the sake of breeding: A single sulcata gets to be the family pet. He comes to you when you're outside, follows you around, enjoys neck scratches, etc. Once you've introduced a female to your pet male sulcata, he's no longer the friendly pet you once had. Now his whole reason for living is to breed. To look for that female and to breed her. No more interaction with the human, only looking for the female. 

If you just want the experience of hatching eggs and raising babies, try to find someone who will give or sell you a few eggs.


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## Tank'sMom (Apr 20, 2016)

dmmj said:


> my best guess would be he's not sexually mature yet.
> (Of course that could be used to describe most men  )


He's 19 years old. Is that not mature enough??


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## Tank'sMom (Apr 20, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> Here's my opinion on breeding your PET sulcata just for the sake of breeding: A single sulcata gets to be the family pet. He comes to you when you're outside, follows you around, enjoys neck scratches, etc. Once you've introduced a female to your pet male sulcata, he's no longer the friendly pet you once had. Now his whole reason for living is to breed. To look for that female and to breed her. No more interaction with the human, only looking for the female.
> 
> If you just want the experience of hatching eggs and raising babies, try to find someone who will give or sell you a few eggs.


Thank you for that. Tank is not much of a pet. I mean, he had very little human interaction when he was younger. Over the time we've had him, he has definitely become more friendly, he'll come to get food, but he does not follow me around or enjoy being touched. He's friendly enough, and we enjoy his company, but he keeps to himself. 
I have nobody around to give me eggs. I did breed exotics before, professionally, and have a degree in Zoology with a minor in Herpetology but that was 20 years ago, pre-9/11 when I found everything changed as far as shipping. 
I am now an RN, I guess this whole experience just gave me the "breeding bug" again.


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## Markw84 (Apr 20, 2016)

I will add that my experience with my males is a bit different than Yvonne's. The breeding activity is sporadic. Sometimes a few times a day. Then a few weeks with no interest. However, all of them are still very intentive to people. WHATEVER they are doing, when we go out there, they rush over to see what we have. My grandkids love to ride my biggest male, who is over 120 lbs. now and 18 yrs old. Even some times when he was just breeding an hour ago, he is eagerly following one grandchild, eating out of his hand, while the other rides on his back - a female right next to them trying to get food also.


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## Tank'sMom (Apr 20, 2016)

Tom said:


> So many elements to this question…
> 
> They can breed constantly. There is no down time after a clutch. I had one male that bred 15+ times a day and the male his sibling would only breed 3 times a week. Also, sulcata females can store sperm and make fertile clutches for months after a single breeding. Leopard females can store it for 5 years.
> 
> ...


You know your opinion means a lot to me, Tom. 
When I acquired this female I planned to breed them but not necessarily right away. It has been almost 3 months since she arrived. She seems very healthy, no obvious issues. I know it's "best" to wait, longer still. I am just curious what other people do. 
I know other keepers, even here, who keep their adult torts in groups. Do you separate the females after laying? To give them a break? Or do they just stay out with the males?
That is what the root of my question is. 
If it is normal to do that, I was wondering if it was ok to introduce them at this point. I have introduced them in intervals. They have been very civil, no aggression, no mating attempts. At all. Has anyone ever had a gay tortoise? (I mean, no offense to any LGBTs) He has not made a move. I'm wondering if that is normal behavior or is there something causing it? Maybe he senses she is still retaining sperm? I'm very curious about the behavior because this is my first personal experience with 2 adult torts. I'm wondering what to expect?
As far as the actual breeding, I know there is a chance that I could end up with more eggs. Whether Tank and Tonka mate or not. After my experience with this most recent clutch, the loss of so many eggs, the idea of hatching my own torts, the whole process is very exciting. 
If you remember, I was a professional breeder about 20 years ago. Burmese Pythons were my "bread and butter". So I have experienced the reward of incubating and hatching my own babies. After the realization that I could do this again, after she laid her clutch, I got excited about the prospect of experiencing that again. 
As far as am I ready to deal with 100 hatchlings a year? If I need to be, I will be. Is the short answer. I don't expect that this will be the case, but if it is, do I have the time and money to deal with it? Yes. 
I still need help from you guys here. I wouldn't want to do it without you. At this point I would be happy to have one decent sized healthy clutch in an incubator. I currently have the 4 eggs, that is good for now, I just want to know "what next?" I welcome advice. 

I am an experienced, although almost 20 years ago, breeder with an albeit "old" degree in Herpetology (information I have not much used in sometime as I am now an RN for over 15 years) who wants to get more involved in my hobby and expand to small scale breeding and has the time and resources to do so with your help and the help of this community. 
I am intrigued, interested, excited... Discouraged. I want to do this right and recognize this community... all of you... as my greatest resource.


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## dmmj (Apr 20, 2016)

I think I can answer some of your questions. Since tortoise breeding is so energetic shall we say I only do it once a year. If they breed successfully they do and if they don't they don't. My males and females are kept separate all year and only introduced once a year for breeding purposes. I'm not telling you what to do with your tortoises just what I do with mine.


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## dmmj (Apr 20, 2016)

Tank'sMom said:


> He's 19 years old. Is that not mature enough??


tortoises sexually mature on size not age so no matter what age he is if he's not big enough he's not mature enough.


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## Tom (Apr 20, 2016)

Most people keep sulcata adults either alone, or in groups with one male and several females. Pairs just don't work. I can't tell you how many people have argued this with me saying how its fine and they've done it for years, and then, eventually, they learn that I was trying to steer them the right way after things go bad. Mine have always lived in groups together all the time. No need to separate them in a relatively large outdoor enclosure. It hint people in the frozen north leave them together all year too. I also keep lone males sometimes, and those do very well too.

If you go with a group, 100 eggs per female, per year, is not unrealistic. My point is that if you go that route you will be running a baby factory for at least 9 months of every year, and baby tortoises are labor intensive if done correctly, and we all know that you'd be doing it correctly.

Another factor to consider in this conversation is that females take a while to really get up and running to full speed on the breeding thing. Some females just pop out fertile eggs from day one, but my experience is that sulcata females usually take at least a season or two to really get going even when they are large and fully mature. Younger, smaller ones can take 3-4 season to get going.

In your case, I'd recommend you house them separately, and if you really want to do the baby thing, put her in his enclosure from time to time for supervised visits.


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## Tank'sMom (Apr 20, 2016)

Markw84 said:


> I will add that my experience with my males is a bit different than Yvonne's. The breeding activity is sporadic. Sometimes a few times a day. Then a few weeks with no interest. However, all of them are still very intentive to people. WHATEVER they are doing, when we go out there, they rush over to see what we have. My grandkids love to ride my biggest male, who is over 120 lbs. now and 18 yrs old. Even some times when he was just breeding an hour ago, he is eagerly following one grandchild, eating out of his hand, while the other rides on his back - a female right next to them trying to get food also.


Thank you for that. As I said, he is not much of a "pet" as I'd like. He was neglected as a youngster and come around a lot in the just over 2 years we've had him. He will eat from my hand, very gently. But he doesn't "seek out attention". From us anyway. He does chase my male potbelly pig every chance he gets! Lol. He's not shy anymore, he just does his thing. He is also just over 18 and at least 120 pounds.


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## Tank'sMom (Apr 20, 2016)

dmmj said:


> tortoises sexually mature on size not age so no matter what age he is if he's not big enough he's not mature enough.


He is large. Over 120 lbs, and he was humping everything he could a few months ago! Then he just stopped. 
Let's just say I'm certain he's a boy, seen the "bits". 
I'm in no hurry. I'm really finding out a lot I didn't expect, honestly. That's why I like it here. 
I just have heard so many horror stories of "male torts gone wild" in the presence of a female that I guess that's what I was expecting. Rather than complete and total disinterest!


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## Tank'sMom (Apr 20, 2016)

Tom said:


> Most people keep sulcata adults either alone, or in groups with one male and several females. Pairs just don't work. I can't tell you how many people have argued this with me saying how its fine and they've done it for years, and then, eventually, they learn that I was trying to steer them the right way after things go bad. Mine have always lived in groups together all the time. No need to separate them in a relatively large outdoor enclosure. It hint people in the frozen north leave them together all year too. I also keep lone males sometimes, and those do very well too.
> 
> If you go with a group, 100 eggs per female, per year, is not unrealistic. My point is that if you go that route you will be running a baby factory for at least 9 months of every year, and baby tortoises are labor intensive if done correctly, and we all know that you'd be doing it correctly.
> 
> ...


I don't think I'd be planning a group or adding any other females at this point. And yes they are housed separately. They each have large pens on the opposite sides of my house. 
He is currently in her pen. You are saying it should be the other way around? That's what I get for trusting the Internet! I was told the opposite. Could that be a factor? I put him with her because she has a sturdy house where she can "escape" if need be, that he doesn't fit in. And because of the "construction" we're still undergoing, her pen is a bit nicer at the moment. 
They have been together for about a week. There is pretty much always someone home. I work 12 hr shifts, 3 days a week so I am home most of the time and the babysitter is here when I'm not. My husband is usually here as well, not working out of town like he normally does for a few months. So we've been watching them closely. 
Her last clutch was about 10ish... and like I mentioned, I have 4 in the incubator. I'm concerned that she may not be the best "mom" as she did not dig a very good hole and ended up crushing most of her eggs. I'm concerned about how to handle that if I do have another clutch, either from retained sperm or a successful mating. For that reason, I'm skeptical as to how I might end up with 100 eggs a year. 
If I do, I have the time, money and resources to handle it. I do remember my breeding days, it was, literally, my full time job. I just don't think it will come to that. Not right now. If it does, I will be blessed!
I really am just an old "herper" with a bite from the "breeding bug". In no way do I want to harm either animal! Both seem very content. Tonka, the female is very friendly! She is much more used to people and other torts. It's obvious. She seems fully recovered from her previous situation and in no way skittish or scared of Tank. 
I do know she has laid at least 2 clutches prior to this one. Probably more. I do not know the outcome of those eggs. 
Ok. So should I separate them at this point and reintroduce her to his pen from time to time? If I follow, that is what you are suggesting? Maybe that will help with his "lack of interest" you think?


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## Tom (Apr 20, 2016)

When females come from environments where they were stressed and not given the best of care, it can take a year or two for them to get fully back on track with good care, diet and hydration.

Many females start out with small clutches, shallow nests, and crushed eggs. This is common. Some just drop eggs or slugs on the surface while walking. With the application of all the aforementioned good stuff, her clutch sizes will increase and her nest making abilities will get better. A "normal" healthy female will lay 3-4 clutches of 25-30 eggs per year. This is where I get that 100 number. You might get less than 50 eggs in a slow year for a new female, but you might get 150 from a big, healthy, well fed, mature female too. My Delores was dry started and very slow growing. She gave me 3 infertile eggs in her first year. 7 the next year, and 3 hatched. The next year she laid 12, then 20, then 22. The following year I got 4 clutches of 22-25, but she was only 35-36 pounds at that point. My 60-70 pound females each laid 26-33 eggs in 3 or 4 clutches each, that year. In 2011 we had an unusually warm winter and an unusually cool summer. All of my females broke tradition and just kept laying clutch after clutch after clutch all year long. Each female laid 8 clutches of 22-31 eggs each. I went through a lot of calcium carbonate supplement powder that year! I had over 800 eggs from 4 females that year and most of them hatched.

What your female is doing is normal for a young girl from her circumstances. The care you offer, from what I can tell here on the forum, is better than the average sulcata keeper out in the world. This means that she will likely give you a whole lot of eggs in the coming years, if you allow her to be bred.


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## Tank'sMom (Apr 20, 2016)

Tom said:


> When females come from environments where they were stressed and not given the best of care, it can take a year or two for them to get fully back on track with good care, diet and hydration.
> 
> Many females start out with small clutches, shallow nests, and crushed eggs. This is common. Some just drop eggs or slugs on the surface while walking. With the application of all the aforementioned good stuff, her clutch sizes will increase and her nest making abilities will get better. A "normal" healthy female will lay 3-4 clutches of 25-30 eggs per year. This is where I get that 100 number. You might get less than 50 eggs in a slow year for a new female, but you might get 150 from a big, healthy, well fed, mature female too. My Delores was dry started and very slow growing. She gave me 3 infertile eggs in her first year. 7 the next year, and 3 hatched. The next year she laid 12, then 20, then 22. The following year I got 4 clutches of 22-25, but she was only 35-36 pounds at that point. My 60-70 pound females each laid 26-33 eggs in 3 or 4 clutches each, that year. In 2011 we had an unusually warm winter and an unusually cool summer. All of my females broke tradition and just kept laying clutch after clutch after clutch all year long. Each female laid 8 clutches of 22-31 eggs each. I went through a lot of calcium carbonate supplement powder that year! I had over 800 eggs from 4 females that year and most of them hatched.
> 
> What your female is doing is normal for a young girl from her circumstances. The care you offer, from what I can tell here on the forum, is better than the average sulcata keeper out in the world. This means that she will likely give you a whole lot of eggs in the coming years, if you allow her to be bred.



That's why I'm on here! You give me hope! And the best advice. 
I get it now. Makes perfect sense. I will continue to "healthy" her up and see what happens in the meantime. Thinking long-term is my best plan in this situation, right? It's just hard when you get that itch you wanna scratch! Lol. 
Thanks for the encouraging words. I'll focus on both of their individual care and since I wasn't really "expecting" the last clutch, I'll just roll with the punches if there's ... when there's a next clutch. 
It's good to hear that her nesting behavior has hope and is expected. 
Still open to anyone's advice on the matter! Keep it coming!!


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## Tom (Apr 21, 2016)

Tank'sMom said:


> That's why I'm on here! You give me hope! And the best advice.
> I get it now. Makes perfect sense. I will continue to "healthy" her up and see what happens in the meantime. Thinking long-term is my best plan in this situation, right? It's just hard when you get that itch you wanna scratch! Lol.
> Thanks for the encouraging words. I'll focus on both of their individual care and since I wasn't really "expecting" the last clutch, I'll just roll with the punches if there's ... when there's a next clutch.
> It's good to hear that her nesting behavior has hope and is expected.
> Still open to anyone's advice on the matter! Keep it coming!!



Well I am glad you like what I have to say. Some people think I'm a great big jerk.

Funny to me how different people take the same words so differently…


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## Kapidolo Farms (Apr 21, 2016)

Tom said:


> Well I am glad you like what I have to say. Some people think I'm a great big jerk.
> 
> Funny to me how different people take the same words so differently…


Jeeze Tom, your are a big jerk. See how that is, I mean it as being funny. LOL. Well I'm laughing anyways. Have a good day. Tank'sMom fun to read your thread here and I hope your being bitten by the breeding bug lands you with lots of success. I guess there are 15K to 20K neonate sulcatas produced in the USA each year. That's both the good and the bad of it in one statistic.


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## Tank'sMom (Apr 21, 2016)

Will said:


> Jeeze Tom, your are a big jerk. See how that is, I mean it as being funny. LOL. Well I'm laughing anyways. Have a good day. Tank'sMom fun to read your thread here and I hope your being bitten by the breeding bug lands you with lots of success. I guess there are 15K to 20K neonate sulcatas produced in the USA each year. That's both the good and the bad of it in one statistic.


I know there are a lot. But I'm sure the majority are not started correctly. I want to do my best by them. With everyone's help here. 
I hope to eventually have some babies I can work with! Thank you for your kind words. I love Sulcatas and I get that there are a lot out there, which as you said can be both good and bad. But the big guys are for me! I always loved the large animals. From my Burmese Pythons to my Jersey Giants! It's both a blessing and a curse! But if I can do it right, why not?


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## Tank'sMom (Apr 21, 2016)

Tom said:


> Well I am glad you like what I have to say. Some people think I'm a great big jerk.
> 
> Funny to me how different people take the same words so differently…


I've seen some of the posts where people think you are "being a jerk", what I see is you giving advice they asked for and when they don't like what they hear, you're the jerk. 
That's a shame. You've been a huge help to me! Ever since I found this place. Thanks for that.


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