# Question for Tom



## lisa127 (Jan 19, 2017)

@Tom I am hearing about people being angry over a scene in the movie "A Dogs Purpose". Do you have any insight into the circumstances of this scene?


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## Yvonne G (Jan 19, 2017)

You can Google it and see the actual filming of that scene. The dog was clearly NOT wanting to be pushed into that water.


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## Tom (Jan 19, 2017)

I know both people in that video and they are friends. I have no idea what was going on that day, but we all have rough days on set. Both of those trainers are good people, excellent trainers, very experienced, and I've worked with both of them for 20 years. Looks like they had an awkward moment and someone filmed it. What is not shown is how they prepped the dog for days or weeks prior to this shot, or how they worked out a reasonable solution to get the shot.

We could go on for hours, but suffice to say, we frequently train for one thing and then when we arrive on set to film, its something completely different. Sometimes this is done deliberately on the part of the production and sometimes its an honest oversight. We all have to try to make it work. Neither of those two trainers in the video would ever harm an animal, and neither of them would let an animal come to harm. Still, there is always an element of risk, and there is always the unknown elements. We do our best to make it all work and come together. It would not surprise me to learn that this dog was jumping in to the water on its own and happy to do it, but the wind machines (ritter fans) were probably never mentioned to the trainers ahead of time, and all that wind, probably caused the dog to balk. You can see in the video how the trainer was trying to ease the dog in but he accepted the dogs repeated refusals and pulled him back up.

All of this is speculation. I'm just guessing based on my knowledge of the business and my personal working relationship with these trainers. Tell you what… I'll call them and ask. I've got a job going with the lady trainer in the video next week. A tortoise job!

The animal rights groups are after us. They think any animal that is in captivity, including our tortoises and our dogs and cats, is a slave and would literally be better off dead. That is why the PETA and HSUS shelters have far higher kill ratios than any county shelter. Its their job to ruin people like me, and they are paid to do their job by good people who love animals and want to do the right thing, but don't understand the fight we are in. Its not even a fair fight. The animal rights groups get millions in donations to attack us with, but people like me are busy trying to earn a living and go about my daily business. We are being attacked left and right, but we have no means of defense, other than the majority of people understanding right from wrong. That is where the underhanded tactics of lying and deceit come in. The animal rights groups, lie, cheat and steal their way to victory after victory, while people like me and the trainers in this video get steamrolled time after time. If people only knew the truth, these groups would end overnight. The public's emotions are easily swayed with a photo and some sad music, but we never get a chance to have our side of the story heard. Politicians with an agenda pass ridiculous law after law and the snowball keeps rolling down hill and gaining size.

If we don't all band together to stop the animal rightists, and get the truth out, we are all going to be very sorry. Go to here to USARK to learn more and fight back: http://usark.org


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## KevinGG (Jan 19, 2017)

Haven't interacted w HSUS, but I can corroborate some of the statements about PETA. I know when it comes to their shelters, the policy is kill ASAP. The reasoning being the more live animals in the shelter the less can be brought in. And in their minds, killing a dog with an injection is better than having them on the street. Obviously, in my opinion, this is ridiculous. I've heard of many people who've had a dog escape, find out where it is, and learn that it was euthanized that very day. Look at what Lange Foundation and, on a larger scale, Best Friends is doing in LA. I believe they are pretty close to no euthanizations in Los Angeles. They are doing work in other places too. This next part doesn't necessarily pertain to dogs, since they live in relation to us, but the philosophy does. From what I've seen, there's always going to be a struggle when using animals to make a living. If not downright abuse, like circuses or certain zoos, than in ways harder for audience members to decipher. I'm thinking use of bull hooks, breaking in of horses, tearing away baby apes from their mothers. In private hands, enclosure sizes for large carnivores and apes is usually inadequate. I think one always has to question these things. Love and wishes for wellbeing are one thing and the reality is another. Personally, I think the keeping of turtles deserves more thought than it is usually given. Not that this means we should stop keeping them but it deserves more thought than is currently given. Are we able to give adequate care?, Is mass breeding of common species wise?, Etc... And animal rights activists need to give more thought to their stances, specifically when it comes to dogs and cats. Not having a discussion about whether people are good or bad. Actually don't believe in good or bad people, just people with all of the factors that come with a life. But this doesn't mean we can't see the grey and come up with better ways of behaving. Like, maybe a new rule would be putting a dog in rushing water with no escape until he goes under isn't humane. And euthanizing all of them isn't either...


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## lisa127 (Jan 19, 2017)

Tom said:


> I know both people in that video and they are friends. I have no idea what was going on that day, but we all have rough days on set. Both of those trainers are good people, excellent trainers, very experienced, and I've worked with both of them for 20 years. Looks like they had an awkward moment and someone filmed it. What is not shown is how they prepped the dog for days or weeks prior to this shot, or how they worked out a reasonable solution to get the shot.
> 
> We could go on for hours, but suffice to say, we frequently train for one thing and then when we arrive on set to film, its something completely different. Sometimes this is done deliberately on the part of the production and sometimes its an honest oversight. We all have to try to make it work. Neither of those two trainers in the video would ever harm an animal, and neither of them would let an animal come to harm. Still, there is always an element of risk, and there is always the unknown elements. We do our best to make it all work and come together. It would not surprise me to learn that this dog was jumping in to the water on its own and happy to do it, but the wind machines (ritter fans) were probably never mentioned to the trainers ahead of time, and all that wind, probably caused the dog to balk. You can see in the video how the trainer was trying to ease the dog in but he accepted the dogs repeated refusals and pulled him back up.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your insight. I figured you might know of those involved. And I totally agree with you about PETA, HSUS, etc. I support local shelters only.


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## mark1 (Jan 19, 2017)

I wasn't asked , but i'm gonna offer my 2 cents , because I've spent my life raising dogs , living eating and sleeping with them , and I've found they deserve more respect than most people ....... not directed at you Tom , I don't know you , and you very well may be an outstanding dog trainer , but I've known more "dog trainers" in my life than I could ever remember , and I've seen first hand it doesn't take much to be called a "dog trainer" not even a "master dog trainer" ......... as far as this guy , and I don't know him , but to scare the pyss out of that dog for a buck is not something i'd stand by and watch ........... peta , hsus , needs videos like that more than they need money ......... I know some positive only trainers would teach that dog to jump in that water and enjoy it , i'm not a believer in positive only training , but when it comes to tricks there is no place for anything but positive only ........ I was raised by a dogfighter , I've bred dogs most of my life , been a reptile hobbyist , bird keeper , fish hobbyist , i'm not against folks breeding , keeping or selling animals, i'm against folks that are going to make it harder for me to do what I've done ,and thus far it's been animal owners that have been the largest contributors towards that ....... peta and hsus don't need that much money to argue their point with all the obscenely inhumane treatment a lot of folks put animals through ...... as kevingg said , we need to do better ............ until I see a video of that "trainer" having that dog voluntarily jump in that water , i'm absolutely recommending to anyone I know to read the book and skip that movie ........


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## lisa127 (Jan 19, 2017)

mark1 said:


> I wasn't asked , but i'm gonna offer my 2 cents , because I've spent my life raising dogs , living eating and sleeping with them , and I've found they deserve more respect than most people ....... not directed at you Tom , I don't know you , and you very well may be an outstanding dog trainer , but I've known more "dog trainers" in my life than I could ever remember , and I've seen first hand it doesn't take much to be called a "dog trainer" not even a "master dog trainer" ......... as far as this guy , and I don't know him , but to scare the pyss out of that dog for a buck is not something i'd stand by and watch ........... peta , hsus , needs videos like that more than they need money ......... I know some positive only trainers would teach that dog to jump in that water and enjoy it , i'm not a believer in positive only training , but when it comes to tricks there is no place for anything but positive only ........ I was raised by a dogfighter , I've bred dogs most of my life , been a reptile hobbyist , bird keeper , fish hobbyist , i'm not against folks breeding , keeping or selling animals, i'm against folks that are going to make it harder for me to do what I've done ,and thus far it's been animal owners that have been the largest contributors towards that ....... peta and hsus don't need that much money to argue their point with all the obscenely inhumane treatment a lot of folks put animals through ...... as kevingg said , we need to do better ............ until I see a video of that "trainer" having that dog voluntarily jump in that water , i'm absolutely recommending to anyone I know to read the book and skip that movie ........


Thank you for your input and opinion!


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 19, 2017)

Tom said:


> I know both people in that video and they are friends. I have no idea what was going on that day, but we all have rough days on set. Both of those trainers are good people, excellent trainers, very experienced, and I've worked with both of them for 20 years. Looks like they had an awkward moment and someone filmed it. What is not shown is how they prepped the dog for days or weeks prior to this shot, or how they worked out a reasonable solution to get the shot.
> 
> We could go on for hours, but suffice to say, we frequently train for one thing and then when we arrive on set to film, its something completely different. Sometimes this is done deliberately on the part of the production and sometimes its an honest oversight. We all have to try to make it work. Neither of those two trainers in the video would ever harm an animal, and neither of them would let an animal come to harm. Still, there is always an element of risk, and there is always the unknown elements. We do our best to make it all work and come together. It would not surprise me to learn that this dog was jumping in to the water on its own and happy to do it, but the wind machines (ritter fans) were probably never mentioned to the trainers ahead of time, and all that wind, probably caused the dog to balk. You can see in the video how the trainer was trying to ease the dog in but he accepted the dogs repeated refusals and pulled him back up.
> 
> ...



Great explanation.


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## dmmj (Jan 19, 2017)

I guess cuz PETA never ever ever lies..... nope never ever


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## Tom (Jan 19, 2017)

KevinGG said:


> If not downright abuse, like circuses or certain zoos, than in ways harder for audience members to decipher. I'm thinking use of bull hooks, breaking in of horses, tearing away baby apes from their mothers.



You've come to the conclusion that circuses are cruel because the Animal Rights groups have successfully indoctrinated you into believing that. Much of the video and evidence of "cruelty" was intentionally set up by them. For example, they would throw explosives into the area where the circus people were unloading the elephants, then start the camera right after the smoke cleared from the boom, and then film the circus hands being "cruel" while trying to control the now panicked elephants. Then they ask for a donation to stop this "cruelty" and people give. They give generously for the poor elephants.

Bull hooks are in no way cruel. Do you know how thick an elephant's skin is? Ever given an injection to one? I have. It ain't easy.

Breaking horses? It might cause some temporary stress, but in the end it helps them.

All the baby apes I raised were left sitting on the cold concrete by their mothers. No tearing away here. We saved those babies.

It is these sorts of misconceptions that we all need to combat. Real cruelty should not ever be tolerated. But everyone should realize the the animal rights groups, and their media friends that support them are all a pack of liars in league with each other to push their shared political agenda. A large percentage of the lawmakers share their views too. We are in deep trouble.


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## dmmj (Jan 19, 2017)

Barnum & Bailey just stopped operations kind of sad


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## wellington (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm just now seeing the vid on the news. Not sure how much they didn't show, but I can say I don't think it's right what I did see. An animal should not be forced to do something it obviously is scared to do. The filming should have been stopped and the dog trainer should not have done what they did. The fear in that dogs face and body language is not right. More training, better training or just a break for the day or maybe a different dog would have been the right thing to do!!! Animals first, people's jobs, movie shot, whatever, should be second. I don't agree that all animal rights activists are wrong. Because of some, whomever it may have been, animals are not getting abused like they used to for Hollywood!


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## KevinGG (Jan 19, 2017)

Tom said:


> You've come to the conclusion that circuses are cruel because the Animal Rights groups have successfully indoctrinated you into believing that. Much of the video and evidence of "cruelty" was intentionally set up by them. For example, they would throw explosives into the area where the circus people were unloading the elephants, then start the camera right after the smoke cleared from the boom, and then film the circus hands being "cruel" while trying to control the now panicked elephants. Then they ask for a donation to stop this "cruelty" and people give. They give generously for the poor elephants.
> 
> Bull hooks are in no way cruel. Do you know how thick an elephant's skin is? Ever given an injection to one? I have. It ain't easy.
> 
> ...



I can't speak to your experiences. I suppose the rest of my post was irrelevant. 

If bull hooks were painless, they wouldnt work. Thickness of skin is irrelevant. Similar to how a tortoise can feel through the shell. Im guessing an elephants first layers of skin have nerve cells. If I'm wrong, please correct me. 

I'm not a supporter of PETA and somehow you gathered that my post was only from videos I've seen by them. This is the equivalent to the rationale that all opponents of Sea World gathered their information solely from "Blackfish". PETA is known to fabricate videos, but all videos depicting animal abuse at the hands of trainers are not fabricated. 

Training elephants and horses to do things their bodies wouldn't normally do often requires the tying of limbs and many times beating into submission. Perhaps the horses you're speaking of weren't being broken for show. Regardless, I've seen the aggressiveness of a typical breaking in and I've seen more humane techniques. Thinking specifically about Monty Roberts and Buck Brannaman. Again, I can't speak to how you have seen it done. I'd say that any period of undue stress is inhumane. 

Back to elephants, circus elephants do hundreds of shows a year. Throughout that time, they are kept in cramped quarters while waiting to perform and during transport. I'd say that is all inhumane. No need for video. 

Again, I can't speak to the apes you raised or the care the mothers were in before they "left them on the concrete". I do know that occasionally apes abandon their young. This is not behavior across the board. If in your experience it was, I'd think their was a problem with how the adults were cared for. I know many zoos and private institutions are wholly inadequate. I'd cite Jane Goodall here, perhaps the foremost authority on chimpanzees. 

My previous post was mostly about questioning easy answers to tough questions. Animals being kept in captivity will always and forever be paired with tough questions. Perhaps we should spend some time pondering them.


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## leigti (Jan 19, 2017)

I just watched the video. I don't know if there was more video after they cut out or not. My opinion is that they should have taken a break. Given the dog A chance to regroup. The dog was definitely thinking about jumping in a couple times but then it was very scared and I don't like the fact that they just threw it in. Stupid question for Tom, but on a movie set are they able to do a dress rehearsal type thing? For instance have that water running like it was and have the dog jump in a couple times. Because you can do all the training in the world at home but you can't exactly simulate the scene on set.
The books were good but I probably won't watch the movie because I would be disappointed. They could never make the movie as good as the book.


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## mark1 (Jan 20, 2017)

possibly there is a fuller version out there than what i saw , in the videos i have seen , at no point did that dog think about jumping in ........ it started out with the guy restraining a scared dog , it was all but over at that point , trying to force a scared dog to do anything is counter productive , you actually make the dog unteachable to anything at that time , except maybe biting ..... dealing with a scared dog , the guy obviously didn't know how , he may have been pressured to get the dog to do it , but what he was doing was never going to work , he should have just thrown him in and gotten it over with , it would have been less harmful to the dog ..........with all the bad publicity they got over it , they need to put out a video of the dog willingly doing it , my belief is they'll need to use a different dog , getting dragged underwater in the end i'm sure that dog will remember for awhile ......... ..............


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## jedig (Jan 20, 2017)

I don't think the dog should have been forced to do that. He clearly did not want to at all. He was so scared and that point I would have just stopped right then and there and tried at another time. I'm not a dog trainer but I have trained my dogs on my own with the guidance of others and forcing them to do something they don't want, you have to have patience. You teach the dog with positive reinforcement until they do it on their own. When I first got a dog on my own I made mistakes that took me a long time to correct. For example, I wanted a dog that could swim with me. What did I do? I put my dog in the pool thinking she would get used to it and nope she was scared, didn't ever want to go near water. Next time I brought her around water she remembered what happened and ran the other way. So I kept thinking how I could get her in water without terrifying her? Use some sort of positive reinforcement. I knew she loved tennis balls. So I would sit at the stairs of the pool and drop the ball at the first step. At first she she didn't want to get near the water but eventually she wanted that ball so bad that after a few tries she stretched and grabbed the ball. Eventually after many more tries she put her foot on the first step. Then after that slowly deeper and deeper and eventually I got to the point where I threw the ball halfway in the pool and she ran and used the steps and swam in her own and now she likes it. You can get dogs to do so many things that they were once scared of if you do it the right way. Am I screaming animal abuse at these people? No, BUT I think they should have approached it a different way and should have known better being they are dog trainers.


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## Tom (Jan 20, 2017)

Ok all you arm chair quarter backs… Here's the real story from someone who was there. Because this is now a delicate and possibly legal matter, I have to choose my words carefully.

First of all a representative of the American Humane Association was present and oversaw all of this action, as well as all the other dog work for each shoot day of the entire movie. They reported nothing "inhumane" and certainly no animal cruelty. They watched this happen, and they assessed it in context with all that happened before and after.

Second, I don't know who recorded this video, but you can hear the relaxed and playful tone. This was not a day where something horrible was going down right in from of their eyes. They were bantering back and forth about it. This is because prior to what is shown in this video, and after what is shown in this short video, the dog was happily playing in the water, and NOT being "forced" to "work" or do anything else that would make it unhappy. In fact, this dog loves the water and swimming, and it loves working with and playing with its trainers.

Next, at the left end of that pool were the steps that the dog and trainer had been using to enter this pool during the coarse of prep and several times on this day. They had already filmed 6-7 takes before this video was taken, and all went perfect. The dog was happy to enter the water and retrieve its toy. After successfully getting all these other takes the director asked if the trainers could release the dog from the area on the platform that is seen in the video, and call the dog so it would now swim diagonally across the pool. Trainers said they would give it a try, and that is the video you see. The dog didn't want to enter from there, the trainer tried to ease him in a couple of times and when the dog refused, you can see the trainer look up and shrug as if to say "Sorry. This isn't going to work…" just as the video cuts. It didn't work, so they went back to entering the water at the familiar steps and everyone, including the dog, was happy again.

Here again, as we have seen with so many other thing like this, the video is edited to only give the appearance of wrongdoing, when in fact no wrongdoing occurred. If the video showed all that happened before and after what is shown, this whole thing would be a non-issue. We, the viewing public are again being manipulated into feeling how "they" want us to feel.

I have personally trained many dogs to swim, and most of them wanted no part of it when we started. All of them now happily play and swim. The dog in the video is one of those dogs that has always loved the water and enjoys swimming and playing in it. The people who edited and are promoting this video have an agenda. Please don't fall for it.


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## Tom (Jan 20, 2017)

jedig said:


> I don't think the dog should have been forced to do that. He clearly did not want to at all. He was so scared and that point I would have just stopped right then and there and tried at another time. I'm not a dog trainer but I have trained my dogs on my own with the guidance of others and forcing them to do something they don't want, you have to have patience. You teach the dog with positive reinforcement until they do it on their own. When I first got a dog on my own I made mistakes that took me a long time to correct. For example, I wanted a dog that could swim with me. What did I do? I put my dog in the pool thinking she would get used to it and nope she was scared, didn't ever want to go near water. Next time I brought her around water she remembered what happened and ran the other way. So I kept thinking how I could get her in water without terrifying her? Use some sort of positive reinforcement. I knew she loved tennis balls. So I would sit at the stairs of the pool and drop the ball at the first step. At first she she didn't want to get near the water but eventually she wanted that ball so bad that after a few tries she stretched and grabbed the ball. Eventually after many more tries she put her foot on the first step. Then after that slowly deeper and deeper and eventually I got to the point where I threw the ball halfway in the pool and she ran and used the steps and swam in her own and now she likes it. You can get dogs to do so many things that they were once scared of if you do it the right way. Am I screaming animal abuse at these people? No, BUT I think they should have approached it a different way and should have known better being they are dog trainers.



The dogs wasn't forced to do that. They tried to get him to go in that way a couple of times and then they accepted his refusal and went back over to entering from the stairs on the other end.

This video of a few seconds duration has led you (and thousands of other people…) to incorrect conclusions about how much time was spent training this dog and what methods were used.


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## Killerrookie (Jan 20, 2017)

I see the cut where it was edited. This entire video was cut up at times. Tom IS proving a point on a lot of things here. I take his word and I clearly see this has been edited a bit. Doubt they threw the dog into the water.. You can see at that moment it was cut to the dog in the water.


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## KevinGG (Jan 20, 2017)

Tom said:


> Ok all you arm chair quarter backs… Here's the real story from someone who was there. Because this is now a delicate and possibly legal matter, I have to choose my words carefully.
> 
> First of all a representative of the American Humane Association was present and oversaw all of this action, as well as all the other dog work for each shoot day of the entire movie. They reported nothing "inhumane" and certainly no animal cruelty. They watched this happen, and they assessed it in context with all that happened before and after.
> 
> ...



My posts weren't really specific to this incident. More an observation of the business. I think I spoke to a lot of the things you brought up again. 

Specifically to this incident, was the dog going under scripted? It seems like the trainer knew the dog was in a risky situation by the way she yelled, "Stop" and rushed over. 

Truthfully, I think people always have an agenda with their opinions. Mostly because what one is reacting to isn't solely the isolated event, but the sum of their experiences. So the people outraged by this video are probably outraged because animal abuse continues to happen, specifically in this industry. I disagree with your opinion that it is all propaganda. Of course some is, but that isn't justification for the complaints to be discarded. 

I can really feel for your friends. I'm sure they are receiving awful letters and maybe even death threats. People will always find identity in things that they do. Your friends being awful people would be further proof that the animal activists are virtuous. I'd urge both sides away from this temptation and toward contemplation. One reason this forum is so cool is that it gives everybody the opportunity to see humans and not monoliths that conform to our insecurities.


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## jedig (Jan 20, 2017)

Tom said:


> Ok all you arm chair quarter backs… Here's the real story from someone who was there. Because this is now a delicate and possibly legal matter, I have to choose my words carefully.
> 
> First of all a representative of the American Humane Association was present and oversaw all of this action, as well as all the other dog work for each shoot day of the entire movie. They reported nothing "inhumane" and certainly no animal cruelty. They watched this happen, and they assessed it in context with all that happened before and after.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the clarification.


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## jedig (Jan 20, 2017)

Tom said:


> Ok all you arm chair quarter backs… Here's the real story from someone who was there. Because this is now a delicate and possibly legal matter, I have to choose my words carefully.
> 
> First of all a representative of the American Humane Association was present and oversaw all of this action, as well as all the other dog work for each shoot day of the entire movie. They reported nothing "inhumane" and certainly no animal cruelty. They watched this happen, and they assessed it in context with all that happened before and after.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the clarification. As you mentioned it was made to seem like it was "animal abuse". Those who seem to be on either side of the extremes will always fabricate something to make it go their way. From what I had personally seen was a scared dog that did not want to go in the water. You (not you directly but in general) can't blame people for forming an opinion on what they themselves physically saw in the video which made it look like it was not a pleasant experience for the dog. Once again thanks for clearing it up for me.


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## Tom (Jan 20, 2017)

jedig said:


> Thank you for the clarification. As you mentioned it was made to seem like it was "animal abuse". Those who seem to be on either side of the extremes will always fabricate something to make it go their way. From what I had personally seen was a scared dog that did not want to go in the water. You (not you directly but in general) can't blame people for forming an opinion on what they themselves physically saw in the video which made it look like it was not a pleasant experience for the dog. Once again thanks for clearing it up for me.



I'm happy to have the opportunity to discuss it.

To be clear, I think the dog _was_ scared, but that was not to be expected given all the prep days, and the previous experience from minutes earlier when the dog was jumping into the water quite happily all on its own. Simple case of a director asking for something different, the trainers gave a brief try, dog didn't like it, so they went another way. No harm, no foul. These are still great trainers who have a great relationship with a happy dog who loves to work. The whole movie went very well. Its just infuriating to me that the title when I opened and watched this video said "Abuse". There is no abuse here. They tried something a little different and new, and the dog don't like it after a couple of attempts, so they went back to the way that was working.


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## mark1 (Jan 20, 2017)

well Tom , if they got 6-7 takes of that dog happily swimming in the water , i'd suggest they put them out there , they got some pretty bad press going on here .... heck it'd be worth it just to reshoot what's in the video and show the dog happily doing what sure looked to me to be something that terrified him ........... i'm sure it'd cost less money to reshoot it for the public than they're about to lose .....looked like a very touchy dog to have been so brave prior to , and dry for that matter , call me skeptical , that dogs refusal looked more like terror to me ?????? I assure you I've spent as much or more time raising dogs as anyone my age possibly could , and I've paid attention .......... I do know there is always something to learn , hopefully the full videos come out ............i'd say it takes raising one timid dog to learn what does and doesn't work when they're scared , raise a few and you'll see the pattern and how to affect it ........ i'm actually pretty well versed in dog confidence , building it and breaking it .............. I don't know that I see dog abuse here , unless the guy makes a practice of what is shown on the video . I have no doubt I see a handler that certainly appears not to understand what he's doing or how to go about it ............


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## Team Gomberg (Jan 20, 2017)

Tom, you explain it all very well. I've seen and experienced similar things on my much smaller scale of animal work. But sadly, many people just won't get it. 
I've heard it said a person is smart but people are stupid.

Someone on YouTube made a fake movie trailer for the family favorite Christmas film, Elf. The cuts and dramatic music to make it look like a horror movie! Don't tell me things can't be twisted. They can.

I'll play devil's advocate here...
So what if the dog was scared at the waters edge and heck, let's say it WAS even thrown into the water for the shot. A few moments of stress for the dog to get a shot for a movie...big deal. 
Have you ever forced your unwilling dog to ride in the car to see the vet? Forced pills down it's throat to medicate because it didn't want to chew them? 

Many people getting up in arms about this don't mind other forms of mental "abuse"...like keeping an under exercised and under stimulated dog stressed out living alone in a backyard. Or not properly socializing a dog so that it can behave without anxiety around people and other pets. Or they don't mind certain physical "abuse" to dogs bodies. Flea treatments and heartworm meds are poison to the dogs too people. ...uh don't get me started.

But the real kicker for me is this. I can't stand the "save the whale- abort the human babies" hypocrites. And when I see some of the people's extreme reactions to stuff like this it bothers me. How can some absolutely oppose a dog feeling a minute of stress but not mind murdering a baby forever.


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## lisa127 (Jan 20, 2017)

Team Gomberg said:


> Tom, you explain it all very well. I've seen and experienced similar things on my much smaller scale of animal work. But sadly, many people just won't get it.
> I've heard it said a person is smart but people are stupid.
> 
> Someone on YouTube made a fake movie trailer for the family favorite Christmas film, Elf. The cuts and dramatic music to make it look like a horror movie! Don't tell me things can't be twisted. They can.
> ...


Did this have to become political? Murdering a baby forever.....OMG
This is where I stop following my own thread.


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## Tom (Jan 20, 2017)

Team Gomberg said:


> Tom, you explain it all very well. I've seen and experienced similar things on my much smaller scale of animal work. But sadly, many people just won't get it.
> I've heard it said a person is smart but people are stupid.
> 
> Someone on YouTube made a fake movie trailer for the family favorite Christmas film, Elf. The cuts and dramatic music to make it look like a horror movie! Don't tell me things can't be twisted. They can.
> ...



You make some good points here. A little stress now and then is unavoidable. Its not abuse, and its really no big deal. What are we supposed to do? Keep our dogs in padded rooms with lavender scented candles wafting into the room and soothing new age music playing 24/7? Man, people should see the stuff we did for protection dog training, and those dogs LOVE those games. They LIVE for it.

On the other topic: Years ago I started a gun thread in the off-topic section here on TFO. I decided that was a mistake, and I think the mods agreed. Sure its off topic, but this is a friendly forum for tortoises and tortoise conversations. I think it best to avoid controversial topics that don't relate to tortoises or animal keeping, politics, and religion here on a tortoise forum. Regardless of which side of the abortion issue stand, I don't think we should discuss that here. Just not the place for it. On the other hand, false accusations of animal abuse, and animal rights issues relate to our tortoises and our hobbies. I hold you in the highest regard, but I just don't think TFO is the place to argue this case.


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## wellington (Jan 20, 2017)

,


Team Gomberg said:


> Tom, you explain it all very well. I've seen and experienced similar things on my much smaller scale of animal work. But sadly, many people just won't get it.
> I've heard it said a person is smart but people are stupid.
> 
> Someone on YouTube made a fake movie trailer for the family favorite Christmas film, Elf. The cuts and dramatic music to make it look like a horror movie! Don't tell me things can't be twisted. They can.
> ...


Heather, love you, but the examples you mentioned is mostly all done for the well being of the dog. Car ride to vets, forcing pill down throat, medication/shampoos for fleas or ticks, etc. Very different then forcing a dog to do something that it doesn't want to do for fear of it, that isnt nessicary for its well being. 
As for the other part you mentioned, I'm all for the woman having a choice to do what she wants with what is going on in her body. I could go on with my rage on that subject too but I won't. We don't agree and this isn't the place. 
However, I will always speak and donate for animals. I don't for anything else.


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## leigti (Jan 20, 2017)

I think what was mentioned earlier about the company should release the video of the dog swimming in the water happily is a good idea. That film is going to bomb now because of this. I don't think it's right but it's what's going to happen.
I know that sometimes you must force your dog to do something it doesn't want to do. And I'm not against that to a point. I cannot tell the places the film was cut but I can see enough of it to know that a couple times that dog was definitely looking over at the trainer that was calling it and giving it a thought of jumping into the water from the platform. Then he decided heck no. I just think the trainer tried a little too long to force him to do it. Should've called it quits a little earlier in my opinion. But hindsight is always 2020 and unless we see a video of every single minute of what really happened we can't completely judge it.


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## wellington (Jan 20, 2017)

'A Dog's Purpose' premiere canceled after video leaks
http://via.wgntv.com/Pi74G

If this link works, it's what our local news reported. Seems to be some controversy here on what really happened.


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## Team Gomberg (Jan 20, 2017)

Will those of you dissatisfied with this training clip still see the movie?


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## mark1 (Jan 21, 2017)

*you have some valid points , but your argument that something is ok because worse stuff happens really wouldn't hold up too well to common sense .............. I believe anyone got a dog that they can't get in a car , is unexercised under stimulated , and locked alone in their back yard shouldn't have one , i'd have wonder why they do ....... if you can't give a dog a pill that doesn't want it , have your vet show you how , it really needn't be stressful .............. if your dog has fleas and you don't treat the problem you shouldn't have a dog ........ if heartworm is a problem in your area and you don't treat them to prevent it , you shouldn't have them ....... if you let your dog run around infested with hookworms or round worms you shouldn't have one .... actually if you let all those problems run their course you won't have your dog very long anyway , hopefully you just wouldn't do it twice .......if they just threw the dog in they wouldn't have needed the "trainer" , probably should have went that route ............ how could anyone who seen what these yahoos did watch the movie without picturing some guy trying to push a terrified dog into that pool ? i'd think it'd kind ruin it , wouldn't it ?
*


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## dmmj (Jan 21, 2017)

I will not let terrorist propaganda make my choices about what movies I see


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## mark1 (Jan 21, 2017)

no qualified, reputable protection dog trainer would push their dogs to that point , when that dog went underwater I thought that's odd , the dog looked like it just gave up ..... as far as personal protection work or sport you want a confident , reliable dog , not a defensive fear biting unpredictable dog ...working/training a dog in fear gets you a dangerous dog , given a dangerous dog with the right instincts they would have their uses , it's just not a skill to produce one , and they are a threat to everyones right to own dogs ...... I do know there are folks out there using methods that rely solely on fear to train dogs to bite , just not any I think who I would consider reputable ......they use it because it's easier or the dogs are not acceptable candidates for the work ...not that there are not exceptionally qualified knowledgeable dog trainers training protection work , but "protection" dog trainers are the "trainers" that have given me the perspective that the overall profession is a joke ............ folks that don't have a clue , anyone can teach a dog to bite , just as anyone can throw a dog in a swimming pool .........

*here's a statement from the winnipeg humane society , they did suspend the representative that was overseeing this shoot pending an investigation .






http://www.winnipeghumanesociety.ca/whs-statement-regarding-a-dogs-purpose-video/


Statement regarding a video released on January 18, 2017 *

We understand there was an observer on the set of this film who was there to advocate on behalf of the dogs. All animals on a film set should have a qualified person who is there to protect their best interests. During the filming of this movie, the Winnipeg Humane Society was consulted for two scenes: a pond scene and a veterinarian clinic scene. It is important to ensure there is an unbiased representative who is neither the animal’s owner or handler that participates in every scene, protecting the animal’s health and safety.

This dog was fearful and not properly trained for this experience. As well, there was no safe exit point for the dog to escape the turbulent water. Training for a scene like this should take place weeks – if not months – in advance to help a dog get comfortable with not only being in water of that depth, but also the turbulence. It also helps to ensure the dog will not suffer consequences from such a traumatic experience.


Thank you to everyone who has contacted us regarding this situation and expressing your concern.


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## Team Gomberg (Jan 21, 2017)

Does anyone know the details of the camera man?

Who took the video? 
Why did he video tape the new attempt from a different entry point? 
Did he record other successful attempts?
What was the point of recording it?

Don't you think these answers could make one have a different perspective?


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## ColleenT (Jan 21, 2017)

i was NOT planning to see this movie, regardless. But any time there is a conflict regarding the care of an animal, i do skip it.


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## Big Charlie (Feb 6, 2017)

I saw this movie this week. It was really beautiful and well-done.


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## lisa127 (Feb 6, 2017)

Big Charlie said:


> I saw this movie this week. It was really beautiful and well-done.


Really? All controversy on the video issue aside, I heard it was not. I read the book several years ago.


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## Big Charlie (Feb 6, 2017)

lisa127 said:


> Really? All controversy on the video issue aside, I heard it was not. I read the book several years ago.


I read the book years ago too. Normally the movie never lives up to the book. In this case, the movie was not a disappointment. Many reviews are skewed by the controversy. There was an IMDB campaign in which many reviewers gave the movie a rating of 1 without seeing the movie. If you read the IMDB reviews of people who actually saw the movie, you'll see they are mostly raves.

In my opinion, this movie is much, much better than Marley & Me. It's on par with Hachi: A Dog's Tale, from the same director.


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## Tom (Feb 6, 2017)

ColleenT said:


> i was NOT planning to see this movie, regardless. But any time there is a conflict regarding the care of an animal, i do skip it.



Thanks for helping the animal rights groups succeed. When legislation gets passed banning your personal pets, you'll know why and can stand proud of your role in it.


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## Tom (Feb 6, 2017)

Here is what the American Humane Association had to say about the incident after a third party review of the _*FACTS*_.

https://www.americanhumane.org/pres...eo-mischaracterized-what-happened-on-the-set/

It is clear and obvious that the dog was not harmed, was not abused, and that this is a ploy from the animal rights groups to shut down working animals in any capacity, no matter how good it is for the animals. Does anyone else wonder why they waited 15 months to release this doctored video if they were concerned about the welfare and treatment of this dog? If I saw an animal being abused and had video to prove it, I would release the video immediately in an effort to put a stop to it at once. I wouldn't let the dog continue to be abused for 15 months if I thought that is what was happening.

Time for a wake-up call. We've been lied to. Again...


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## Tom (Feb 6, 2017)

Big Charlie said:


> I read the book years ago too. Normally the movie never lives up to the book. In this case, the movie was not a disappointment. Many reviews are skewed by the controversy. There was an IMDB campaign in which many reviewers gave the movie a rating of 1 without seeing the movie. If you read the IMDB reviews of people who actually saw the movie, you'll see they are mostly raves.
> 
> In my opinion, this movie is much, much better than Marley & Me. It's on par with Hachi: A Dog's Tale, from the same director.



These are the same trainers that did Marley and Me. Hachi was done by another friend of mine who is also an extremely talented and dedicated animal trainer.


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## Markw84 (Feb 6, 2017)

I saw the movie and liked it a lot. If you're a dog lover, it is definitely a tear jerker in parts.

It is not coincidental that a movie that celebrates the enrichment a dog can add to a person's life, was targeted by those who believe all pets should be banned. Also not coincidental that that footage was released 15 months after they first got it - and the week before the movie was to be released. But look at how many immediately believe what is depicted, and insinuated. That footage ran on the local NBC news here, yet we will hear nothing of the findings of what really happened!!


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## mark1 (Feb 6, 2017)

Tom , they made I believe 18 million the first weekend , total cost for the movie I believe was 20 million ........ I absolutely know/knew we will never see the video of the dog "happily doing the stunt" , my guess is because there is none , and when it comes to dogs , i'm an excellent guesser ............ the "trainer" handling that dog was a hack at best , my daughters could do a better job reading a strange dog ..........


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## Yvonne G (Feb 6, 2017)

Team Gomberg said:


> Will those of you dissatisfied with this training clip still see the movie?



I don't go to the movies, but if it ever comes out on cable I'll watch it for sure


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## Tom (Feb 6, 2017)

mark1 said:


> Tom , they made I believe 18 million the first weekend , total cost for the movie I believe was 20 million ........ I absolutely know/knew we will never see the video of the dog "happily doing the stunt" , my guess is because there is none , and when it comes to dogs , i'm an excellent guesser ............ the "trainer" handling that dog was a hack at best , my daughters could do a better job reading a strange dog ..........



You could not be more wrong. You may be a good guesser sometimes, but not this time. The dog happily jumped into that pool many times during the weeks of prep leading up to that shot, and it jumped into that pool 6 or 7 times prior to this video, and it jumped into that pool several more times after that video was taken.

Further, that trainer is not a "hack" in any way. Haven't you ever had to give a bath to a dog that didn't want one? Did you abuse that dog when you pulled it into the tub or held it in front of the hose while you rinsed the suds? Are you a "hack" for rinsing the suds off your dog? That trainer is a veteran in this business and has been humanely handling animals for film for decades.

Here's the thing: You are guessing about what happened based on a creatively edited snippet of video and your own pre-conceived biases. I _know_ what happened because I've had several conversations both with the trainers that were in the video, and several other people directly involved, and because this is my industry and this is what I do every day.

If the rest of the video is ever made public, I will expect an apology from you, and I'll be serving your crow with dinner, promptly at 5:30.


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## Yvonne G (Feb 6, 2017)

This has been a very informative thread, and I want to thank all of you who have participated for remaining cool and friendly. This is the type of subject that can quickly go so very wrong.


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## lisa127 (Feb 6, 2017)

Tom said:


> These are the same trainers that did Marley and Me. Hachi was done by another friend of mine who is also an extremely talented and dedicated animal trainer.


I loved both those movies. I have 3 dogs and the one I'm most bonded to is named Marley. I always refer to us as Marley and Me...lol. this is my Marley. Best boy in the world!


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## mark1 (Feb 6, 2017)

I'll respectfully remain in disagreement , I have to think a pretty basic rule in teaching a dog anything is don't scare them ........... no , I've never had an issue freaking out a dog , well at least not in decades , certainly not giving one a bath . I learned pretty quickly it doesn't work out to force a scared dog , or even scare a dog your trying to teach , it's actually counter productive , it'll be damage that needs undone ... the object is not to scare them , people can't even learn when they are as terrified as that dog was ...you need to know the limits of the dog your working with , be able to read him and distract him while taking him near the edges of his limits , gradually increasing his limits , it's just common sense .. .. I make no assumptions as to seeing a guy trying to convince a terrified dog through force that it's ok , I just shake my head at that logic ......... "no animals harmed" , I have to think that's a pretty low bar to clear ............. if you got a dog so soft or neurotic that it's incapable of being taught to be bathed without becoming terrified , it certainly isn't a candidate to happily jump into a running washing machine .... assuming it's not owner error , it's actually a better candidate for euthanasia ............ if that dog was familiar with that situation and the only difference was where he was standing , I have to say that'd be a pretty weak nerved dog .......... I don't doubt the dog jumped in the pool , what I doubt is the dog willingly jumped in the water I saw in the video ........... looking forward to their video , and dinner ............ i'm glad no dogs were harmed , hopefully he has a caring owner and is not owned by a company that just supplies animals .......... if the guy is any good at training dogs , that has to be an embarrassing moment for him .............


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## leigti (Feb 7, 2017)

lisa127 said:


> I loved both those movies. I have 3 dogs and the one I'm most bonded to is named Marley. I always refer to us as Marley and Me...lol. this is my Marley. Best boy in the world!
> View attachment 199199


Very cute dog  I read, actually listen to, the book Marley and me. I would never see the movie because I cried so much when I read the book that I knew I would be embarrassed at the movies.


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## lisa127 (Feb 7, 2017)

leigti said:


> Very cute dog  I read, actually listen to, the book Marley and me. I would never see the movie because I cried so much when I read the book that I knew I would be embarrassed at the movies.


Thank you. Yeah, i cried too.


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## Tom (Feb 7, 2017)

mark1 said:


> I'll respectfully remain in disagreement , I have to think a pretty basic rule in teaching a dog anything is don't scare them ........... no , I've never had an issue freaking out a dog , well at least not in decades , certainly not giving one a bath . I learned pretty quickly it doesn't work out to force a scared dog , or even scare a dog your trying to teach , it's actually counter productive , it'll be damage that needs undone ... the object is not to scare them , people can't even learn when they are as terrified as that dog was ...you need to know the limits of the dog your working with , be able to read him and distract him while taking him near the edges of his limits , gradually increasing his limits , it's just common sense .. .. I make no assumptions as to seeing a guy trying to convince a terrified dog through force that it's ok , I just shake my head at that logic ......... "no animals harmed" , I have to think that's a pretty low bar to clear ............. if you got a dog so soft or neurotic that it's incapable of being taught to be bathed without becoming terrified , it certainly isn't a candidate to happily jump into a running washing machine .... assuming it's not owner error , it's actually a better candidate for euthanasia ............ if that dog was familiar with that situation and the only difference was where he was standing , I have to say that'd be a pretty weak nerved dog .......... I don't doubt the dog jumped in the pool , what I doubt is the dog willingly jumped in the water I saw in the video ........... looking forward to their video , and dinner ............ i'm glad no dogs were harmed , hopefully he has a caring owner and is not owned by a company that just supplies animals .......... if the guy is any good at training dogs , that has to be an embarrassing moment for him .............



Are _you_ really lecturing _me _about how to train a dog? Really? Thank you for sharing your thoughts, but you are not the person that I thought you were.

I can see that you've made up your mind about what went on, based purely on your own imagination and speculation, and not on any of the facts that are now known. That being the case, there is nothing left for me to say to you about it. Bye now.


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## wellington (Feb 7, 2017)

mark1 said:


> I'll respectfully remain in disagreement , I have to think a pretty basic rule in teaching a dog anything is don't scare them ........... no , I've never had an issue freaking out a dog , well at least not in decades , certainly not giving one a bath . I learned pretty quickly it doesn't work out to force a scared dog , or even scare a dog your trying to teach , it's actually counter productive , it'll be damage that needs undone ... the object is not to scare them , people can't even learn when they are as terrified as that dog was ...you need to know the limits of the dog your working with , be able to read him and distract him while taking him near the edges of his limits , gradually increasing his limits , it's just common sense .. .. I make no assumptions as to seeing a guy trying to convince a terrified dog through force that it's ok , I just shake my head at that logic ......... "no animals harmed" , I have to think that's a pretty low bar to jump into a running washing machine .... assuming it's not owner error , it's actually a better candidate for euthanasia ............ if that dog was familiar with that situation and the only difference was where he was standing , I have to say that'd be a pretty weak nerved dog .......... I don't doubt the dog jumped in the pool , what I doubt is the dog willingly jumped in the water I saw in the video ........... looking forward to their video , and dinner ............ i'm glad no dogs were harmed , hopefully he has a caring owner and is not owned by a company that just supplies animals .......... if the guy is any good at training dogs , that has to be an embarrassing moment for him .............


Did I understand you correctly?


mark1 said:


> I'll respectfully remain in disagreement , I have to think a pretty basic rule in teaching a dog anything is don't scare them ........... no , I've never had an issue freaking out a dog , well at least not in decades , certainly not giving one a bath . I learned pretty quickly it doesn't work out to force a scared dog , or even scare a dog your trying to teach , it's actually counter productive , it'll be damage that needs undone ... the object is not to scare them , people can't even learn when they are as terrified as that dog was ...you need to know the limits of the dog your working with , be able to read him and distract him while taking him near the edges of his limits , gradually increasing his limits , it's just common sense .. .. I make no assumptions as to seeing a guy trying to convince a terrified dog through force that it's ok , I just shake my head at that logic ......... "no animals harmed" , I have to think that's a pretty low bar to clear ............. if you got a dog so soft or neurotic that it's incapable of being taught to be bathed without becoming terrified , it certainly isn't a candidate to happily jump into a running washing machine .... assuming it's not owner error , it's actually a better candidate for euthanasia ............ if that dog was familiar with that situation and the only difference was where he was standing , I have to say that'd be a pretty weak nerved dog .......... I don't doubt the dog jumped in the pool , what I doubt is the dog willingly jumped in the water I saw in the video ........... looking forward to their video , and dinner ............ i'm glad no dogs were harmed , hopefully he has a caring owner and is not owned by a company that just supplies animals .......... if the guy is any good at training dogs , that has to be an embarrassing moment for him .............


did I understand you correctly? A dog so soft or neurotic that is afraid of a bath, and can't be trained to have a Beth without being terrified is better off euthanized?
Seriously? That is so wrong! There's many ways to wash a terrified dog.


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## wellington (Feb 7, 2017)

mark1 said:


> Tom , they made I believe 18 million the first weekend , total cost for the movie I believe was 20 million ........ I absolutely know/knew we will never see the video of the dog "happily doing the stunt" , my guess is because there is none , and when it comes to dogs , i'm an excellent guesser ............ the "trainer" handling that dog was a hack at best , my daughters could do a better job reading a strange dog ..........


It might help to understand where your coming from if you shared some of your dog experience with us. When you portray yourself as a dog expertise, it helps to let us in on what you have done, did, or do, to make you think of know that. Not trying to say you aren't here, don't take this wrong. Without knowing you or background, it's just words anyone could say about themselves.


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## mark1 (Feb 7, 2017)

wellington said:


> Did I understand you correctly?
> 
> did I understand you correctly? A dog so soft or neurotic that is afraid of a bath, and can't be trained to have a Beth without being terrified is better off euthanized?
> Seriously? That is so wrong! There's many ways to wash a terrified dog.


you missed the part that said if it's not "owner error" ......... and yes , fearful dogs are candidates for euthanasia , they can be downright dangerous .......... a dog made to fear something by it's owner is fixable , the unfixable ones owned by folks who don't know any better endanger my right to own my dogs ......... even if i write down my experience , it's still just words on the internet ...........


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## wellington (Feb 7, 2017)

mark1 said:


> you missed the part that said if it's not "owner error" ......... and yes , fearful dogs are candidates for euthanasia , they can be downright dangerous .......... a dog made to fear something by it's owner is fixable , the unfixable ones owned by folks who don't know any better endanger my right to own my dogs ......... even if i write down my experience , it's still just words on the internet ...........


Even fearful dogs can over come. Yes, not all, but the effort should still be given, before euthanasia is considered. 
I understand they are still just words. But does give a little more credibility to what you say.


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## Yvonne G (Feb 7, 2017)

Everyone please stay cool. (Really, folks - I shouldn't even have to say this)


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## mark1 (Feb 7, 2017)

wellington said:


> Even fearful dogs can over come. Yes, not all, but the effort should still be given, before euthanasia is considered.
> I understand they are still just words. But does give a little more credibility to what you say.



I absolutely agree that many can be rehabilitated , i would say most ........ sometimes they can't , when you get a large distrustful aggressive defensive dog , rehabbing it is in itself dangerous and not a dog for someone to learn on ...... I've known world class trainers who put down dogs because they were dangerous ........... and it doesn't take much of a dog to seriously injure a kid ........i grew up around working dogs , I've raised mastiffs since 1979 , here's 5 that live here now , along with maybe 40 turtles ........... i'd estimate I've raised between 60-70 dogs in my life , about half that number from birth to death ............ I've done a lot more than train them , i may not be that smart , or educated , but i assure you when it comes to this stuff i make it up with effort ........


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## leigti (Feb 7, 2017)

Nice dogs, I love huge dogs.


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