# Am I Murdering my Tortoise



## MemeTheory (Sep 30, 2020)

Reddit (i.e. one or two strangers on the internet) have decided that they need to tell me, in a million different ways, that I am an animal abuser.... Its been... something. So, people of Tortoise Forum; am I abusing Sir Digby Chicken Ceaser?

Enclosure info - its 4'x4' until we move to a more yard accessible area in the next year or so. I used a raised garden planter, bonded to 4'x4' MDF board, and pond liner to start. The Cork I got from an etsy shop that sells corkwood panels (there is 4; they're super nice) and some Fur tree inserts to fill in some gaps. His cave is fully accessible (he pushed that moss in front of it) and is supplanted with some moss. (I used red moss several months ago... DON'T!!! Ever see a red tortoise? Its shocking to say the least.)

Substrate - I mixed a natural substrate with Coco Coir, Pumice, Charcoal (for the plants), Orchid Bark, and Peat Moss. It is also inhabited by about 100 worms and 10 rolly pollys to help manage the plant life. (The rolly-pollys are colored like cows... they are ADORABLE).

Environment - it grades from 70° - 80° depending on location, from the front right to back left. There is a basking rock by the pingpong ball (covered with dirt at the second, so not doing a great job as a basking rock) with a ceramic heater tethered to a 95° regulator (i'm considering upping that to 105 or so, but he doesn't seem to be jonesing for heat). I'm using a reptile humidifier and have a 80% meter to limit the humidity. It usually doesn't hit the limit during the day, but keeps it nice consistent at night. He generally conks out in or on top of his cave (there is a sneaky heat pad just to the right of his face up top). The portion cut off in this photo has his water bowl (shallow, he "could" take a dip, but I haven't seen him do so - I bathe him every few days so he may not feel the need). And his Mazuri - though he eats prefers the flower to the mazuri.

Plants - Vary, but right now some Orange marigold, destroyed Purple Violet, and a Kale plant centerpiece. The left grass is Mondo grass I picked up from Armstrong's, but the grass on the right is from seedling drought resistant grass. Its really there to just hold stuff together, but he finds it tasty. That "tree" up front is a Desert Rose, and there is a baby palm in the back which is being used as support more than foliage.

Heat - There are two Mercury Vapor lights on a 14 hour timer for day / night. I have several thermometers around, and if it peaks above 90° I'll turn one off. A ceramic heat bulb and 5 heating pads hidden against the walls keep everything constant. Its actually been increibly easy to maintain temp inside the Kingdom, so that's been nice.

So? Is this a terrible enclosure, because some strangers on the internet really want me to feel bad about it. ?Most of the criciticsm is the firm belief that humidity willmurderr poor Sir Digby.... I think they're being a "bit" dramatic.


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## Maro2Bear (Sep 30, 2020)

Greetings. Heat & humidity are great for Leopards, but the overall enclosure is a bit small.

Make sure that you check out the great care guide that TFO has....

 https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threa...se-a-sulcata-leopard-or-star-tortoise.181503/


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## Blackdog1714 (Sep 30, 2020)

Murderer no way maybe just a little over decorating ? I have attached a link to our Leopard care. BTW is you leopard about 2 years old, mine is a he is definitely a BOY! Your looks like a PB and those are notorious for some mild pyramiding despite all heroic efforts! Welome!





The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise


I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...




www.tortoiseforum.org


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## AgataP (Sep 30, 2020)

That looks like one almost dead tortoise ??
Get off Reddit - that place brings bullies like milkshake brings all the boys - sorry being goofy.

You know that enclosure needs to be bigger and it will be when you move.

Hmmmm I think I am gonna go catch me some Rollie’s too. 
They are not bothering your tortoise? 

Welcome to the forum.


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## MemeTheory (Sep 30, 2020)

Maro2Bear said:


> but the overall enclosure is a bit small.
> ➡➡ https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threa...se-a-sulcata-leopard-or-star-tortoise.181503/



We're working with what we got - I wasn't going to get a tort until I had a yard, but this guy was NOT thriving in the pet store I found him in earlier this year, so I decided to make it work with what we got. I've been growing the enclosures with him - this is #3.


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## MemeTheory (Sep 30, 2020)

Blackdog1714 said:


> I have attached a link to our Leopard care
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol; the Leopard Care sheet was one of the arguing points one of the idiots was making. "ITS ONLY FOR HATCHLINGS?!?!?!?"


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## Maro2Bear (Sep 30, 2020)

MemeTheory said:


> We're working with what we got - I wasn't going to get a tort until I had a yard, but this guy was NOT thriving in the pet store I found him in earlier this year, so I decided to make it work with what we got. I've been growing the enclosures with him - this is #3.



Great!


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## Tom (Sep 30, 2020)

MemeTheory said:


> Reddit (i.e. one or two strangers on the internet) have decided that they need to tell me, in a million different ways, that I am an animal abuser.... Its been... something. So, people of Tortoise Forum; am I abusing Sir Digby Chicken Ceaser?
> 
> Enclosure info - its 4'x4' until we move to a more yard accessible area in the next year or so. I used a raised garden planter, bonded to 4'x4' MDF board, and pond liner to start. The Cork I got from an etsy shop that sells corkwood panels (there is 4; they're super nice) and some Fur tree inserts to fill in some gaps. His cave is fully accessible (he pushed that moss in front of it) and is supplanted with some moss. (I used red moss several months ago... DON'T!!! Ever see a red tortoise? Its shocking to say the least.)
> 
> ...


I would do some things differently, and recommend you make some changes, but I wouldn't call this abuse.

No moss. They eat it.
No humidifier. Use a closed chamber and you won't need one. I don't like them breathing water vapor.
No MVBs. They cause pyramiding and have lots of issues.
I wouldn't use all that stuff for substrate. Just use plain, fine grade orchid bark.
No hot rocks. Dangerous.
70 degrees is too cool with humidity. Keep it 80 or higher.
I'd run the lights for no more that 12-13 hours for a tropical species like a leopard.

The care sheet works for any age or size leopard, but I'd expect a larger tortoise to spend most days outside during fair weather.


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## MemeTheory (Sep 30, 2020)

Thanks for the tip's, Tom. I'll go refresh my lighting research - I could swear MVB's were the most recommended, but I can see what they are saying. No Moss!!! He will be crushed!!! (but way less red). I'm blaming you when he asks where it went.

The substrate is designed, specifically, so I can keep both Digby AND the plants as naturally happy as possible. I'm going more for "outside dirt" than inside substrate - I am in fierce agreement that Tort's belong outside, and have been trying my best to mimic that natural dirt / plant environment. As for temp; he rarely goes down to the 70° corner, and even that spot it stays at a constant 80°+ when both lights are going. I "HAVE" been getting paranoid about it getting to hot when it hits 90 or so - I'll stop that paranoia and let him be lizard hot.

As for humidifier and closed chamber - closing him up would be terribly difficult for now, and he gets a bit moody if I don't have the humidifier set up, but as I've said, we're just flying by wire in an apartment until I get out of San Diego and its intense housing prices, and actually get a yard (this is months away, not years). But it never gets too "moist" with the regulator hooked up. I've been monitoring the substrate moisture, and have had to make adjustments to avoid said permanent moisture, and I think I have it at a good equilibrium. I am being extra mindful of his breathing patterns and habits to catch any possible infection early, though, despite my adamance on keeping it.

Oh, and I'll let the hot rock just stay buried, instead of being a heatrock.

Finally - THANK YOU FOR THE CARE SHEETS! (and posts in general) This past year I've been trying to assimilate your knowledge as much as possible - its been invaluable.


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## jaizei (Sep 30, 2020)

Keep Reddit drama on Reddit.

and no profanity or name calling on the forum.


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## Patrick McMullen (Sep 30, 2020)

Tom said:


> No MVBs. They cause pyramiding and have lots of issues.



Just to clarify. Taken out of context this could be misunderstood. Does this mean that MVB's result in dry conditions, and those dry conditions cause pyramiding?


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## Tom (Sep 30, 2020)

Patrick McMullen said:


> Just to clarify. Taken out of context this could be misunderstood. Does this mean that MVB's result in dry conditions, and those dry conditions cause pyramiding?


No. The MVBs themselves, more specifically the rays they produce, are extremely desiccating to the newly forming carapace tissue between the scutes. These bulbs dry out the new tissue prematurely and literally cause pyramiding on a growing tortoise. They will do this even in a closed chamber with 90+% humidity.

If the tortoise is already grown, like a full size adult Russian for example, then pyramiding won't happen, but you still have the problem of these bulbs running too hot for a closed chamber, burning out prematurely, premature cessation of UV production, they are delicate and easily broken, and they can be picky about which lighting hood you use them in. They are also expensive.

Not a good option any way you look at it really.


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## MemeTheory (Sep 30, 2020)

Copy all - back to pet store! I needed another lamp stand anyhow.


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## Chefdenoel10 (Sep 30, 2020)

glitch206 said:


> That looks like one almost dead tortoise ??
> Get off Reddit - that place brings bullies like milkshake brings all the boys - sorry being goofy.
> 
> You know that enclosure needs to be bigger and it will be when you move.
> ...



who’s milkshake and how can I get to know them (they bring all the boys?) ?


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## MichaelL (Sep 30, 2020)

Tom said:


> I would do some things differently, and recommend you make some changes, but I wouldn't call this abuse.
> 
> No moss. They eat it.
> No humidifier. Use a closed chamber and you won't need one. I don't like them breathing water vapor.
> ...


If I'm not mistaken the species of marigold in the enclosure is the type you should NOT use, right? Want your opinion to verify


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## MemeTheory (Sep 30, 2020)

OH SNAP! You are correct Micheal; stupid flower names. I've pulled em' out. He didn't really eat them, thankfully, just enjoyed the cushioning.


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## newCH (Sep 30, 2020)

Hello, please take out the desert rose.
I used to have one and when I was researching it learned that people in Africa use the plant to make
poison darts.


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## Flimflambimbam (Sep 30, 2020)

MemeTheory said:


> Reddit (i.e. one or two strangers on the internet) have decided that they need to tell me, in a million different ways, that I am an animal abuser.... Its been... something. So, people of Tortoise Forum; am I abusing Sir Digby Chicken Ceaser?
> 
> Enclosure info - its 4'x4' until we move to a more yard accessible area in the next year or so. I used a raised garden planter, bonded to 4'x4' MDF board, and pond liner to start. The Cork I got from an etsy shop that sells corkwood panels (there is 4; they're super nice) and some Fur tree inserts to fill in some gaps. His cave is fully accessible (he pushed that moss in front of it) and is supplanted with some moss. (I used red moss several months ago... DON'T!!! Ever see a red tortoise? Its shocking to say the least.)
> 
> ...



Hey, I’m new! So... what’s the ping pong ball about?


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## MemeTheory (Sep 30, 2020)

> So... what’s the ping pong ball about? 

I just figured he'd like to have something to mess around with. He likes to roll it around, and who am I to tell him no.

And thanks NewCH - noted. Its just being used as a part of the landscape, so I'll swap it out for something more generic.


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## Chefdenoel10 (Sep 30, 2020)

Flimflambimbam said:


> Hey, I’m new! So... what’s the ping pong ball about?



hi and welcome!
No the ping pong ball should NOT be in there but maybe it’s just for fun. 
but DEFINITELY NOT GOOD FOR THE TORTOISE. 
it was just funny the way you asked that. ?


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## Chefdenoel10 (Sep 30, 2020)

MemeTheory said:


> OH SNAP! You are correct Micheal; stupid flower names. I've pulled em' out. He didn't really eat them, thankfully, just enjoyed the cushioning.



hi and welcome to you!!
Your tortoise is gorgeous.
Please do right by him as you will have him for a long time . Seems you are getting great info on here. Listen.....
Happy to know you! And good luck!
?


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## Flimflambimbam (Sep 30, 2020)

Haha ? well, I mean... I thought, does my Pearl want a ball too? Am I being mean because I haven’t given her a toy?


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## Chefdenoel10 (Sep 30, 2020)

Flimflambimbam said:


> Haha ? well, I mean... I thought, does my Pearl want a ball too? Am I being mean because I haven’t given her a toy?



?????????????
Always....ALWAYS .. glad to know someone who’s funny. It makes for great posts! 
????????
Yes your mean ...
She wants a unicorn ? stuffed toy 
(Like my husband got mine ?).
I am just kidding !!!
Please don’t do that....
as all kinds of objects like these are dangerous for them.


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## MemeTheory (Sep 30, 2020)

I would like to take a second and thank everyone for the constructive feedback; its night and day from what I got over at ol' Reddit town.


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## Chefdenoel10 (Sep 30, 2020)

MemeTheory said:


> I would like to take a second and thank everyone for the constructive feedback; its night and day from what I got over at ol' Reddit town.



TRUST ME.
This is the only place to BELIEVE what they are saying. They speak ONLY FROM EXPERIENCE. 
They raise them, they Sell them and they all know their stuff.
They really are so nice .
Your tortoise will love you for listening to their words and praise you with nice poops and a healthy system .
That means.. NO VET VISITS. 
and that should be music to your ears ?


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## MemeTheory (Oct 1, 2020)

Man these guys like to stalk people around the internet - it's not healthy. And I mentioned, up front in that first thread, that I was looking to build a new one, you and your goon-squad just decided to ignore that and be pretty much the worst human's I've experienced in 2020 - so thanks for that.


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## Golden Greek Tortoise 567 (Oct 1, 2020)

jmaneyapanda said:


> Im in utter disbelief that he’s acting as a victim here. And hiding absurd, publicized truths about how he kept that animal. And his atrocious behavior about it.
> Nonetheless, I’d love to get this forums opinion on how he kept, and degradingly defended, his enclosure 50 days ago. Insisting it was fine at half the current size, and belittling anyone who suggested it should be larger. Never mind the fact that he DID double it’s enclosure size, and he’s still being told it’s probably too small by respected members here.
> 
> and LOL. My post was deleted from earlier. I guess no one wants to see how he really kept this tortoise.


Actually a mod probably deleted your post because of the language in it. There are kids in this forum so we try to not use words as much as possible.


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## jmaneyapanda (Oct 1, 2020)

Golden Greek Tortoise 567 said:


> Actually a mod probably deleted your post because of the language in it. There are kids in this forum so we try to not use words as much as possible.


Fair enough. I have no dog in this fight, save to 1) not let someone belittle myself or others unjustly, and 2) point out that that 5-6” leopard tortoise has no place in a 75 gallon glass aquarium.


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## wellington (Oct 1, 2020)

As already stated by Moderstor Jaizei. Keep reddit on reddit and not on this forum!
Any more reddit talk or member bashing will continue to be deleted and possibly member banning!
This forum is to help educate on better care. If someone learns they are wrong and decides to make improvements then this forum has done its job. Some people take longer then others to admit they were wrong.


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## Meryl C (Oct 2, 2020)

What are rollies / rolly pollys ? 
BTW that has been a nightmare to type as autocorrect does not like it, at all!


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## NovasArk (Oct 2, 2020)

In lieu of the MVB, what's the best recommendation?


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## Blackdog1714 (Oct 2, 2020)

NovasArk said:


> In lieu of the MVB, what's the best recommendation?


A T5 fluorescent in a a fixture with a reflector. Although if you can get your baby outside a few hours every few days you could do without the UVB bulb.


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## saleena.lewis (Oct 2, 2020)

The cage is rather too small but that looks like a cool enclosure to me!


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## Sue Ann (Oct 2, 2020)

MemeTheory said:


> > So... what’s the ping pong ball about?
> 
> I just figured he'd like to have something to mess around with. He likes to roll it around, and who am I to tell him no.
> 
> And thanks NewCH - noted. Its just being used as a part of the landscape, so I'll swap it out for something more generic.


I think the ping pong ball is a great idea!


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## Olivertort1 (Oct 2, 2020)

MemeTheory said:


> Reddit (i.e. one or two strangers on the internet) have decided that they need to tell me, in a million different ways, that I am an animal abuser.... Its been... something. So, people of Tortoise Forum; am I abusing Sir Digby Chicken Ceaser?
> 
> Enclosure info - its 4'x4' until we move to a more yard accessible area in the next year or so. I used a raised garden planter, bonded to 4'x4' MDF board, and pond liner to start. The Cork I got from an etsy shop that sells corkwood panels (there is 4; they're super nice) and some Fur tree inserts to fill in some gaps. His cave is fully accessible (he pushed that moss in front of it) and is supplanted with some moss. (I used red moss several months ago... DON'T!!! Ever see a red tortoise? Its shocking to say the least.)
> 
> ...


Sorry to say Mindo grass is also a no feed


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## Olivertort1 (Oct 2, 2020)

Olivertort1 said:


> Sorry to say Mindo grass is also a no feed


Mondo


Olivertort1 said:


> Sorry to say Mindo grass is also a no feed


mondo


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## JMM (Oct 2, 2020)

I second Tom's concern with the humidifier--it can aerosolize some bad bugs that should not be inhaled.


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## NovasArk (Oct 3, 2020)

Blackdog1714 said:


> A T5 fluorescent in a a fixture with a reflector. Although if you can get your baby outside a few hours every few days you could do without the UVB bulb.


Perfect thank you! We live in southern Az so we can do the outside treatment!


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## Mrs.Jennifer (Oct 3, 2020)

How lucky that you can do the “outside treatment” year-round! I’m in Connecticut, and we definitely have 4 seasons. This week my Russian has been soaking up the last rays of the season.


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## newCH (Oct 3, 2020)

We do the outside treatment in So. FL also. ???Lots of warm weather.


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## Tom (Oct 4, 2020)

JMM said:


> I second Tom's concern with the humidifier--it can aerosolize some bad bugs that should not be inhaled.


I was just worried about the water vapor. You bring up a whole new concern that I'd never even considered. Even more reason to not use them. Thanks for the info.


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## MemeTheory (Oct 4, 2020)

The nay's have it - goodbye Reptile Humidifier; back to spray bottling.


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## Boyu (Oct 4, 2020)

Xd


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## turtlesteve (Oct 4, 2020)

Tom said:


> I was just worried about the water vapor. You bring up a whole new concern that I'd never even considered. Even more reason to not use them. Thanks for the info.



I’m not really sure I buy these concerns with humidifiers. Is there anything actually documented with tortoises or is this just theoretical? I tried them out years ago, but now similarly dislike them (but for entirely practical reasons):

1. Not needed in a closed chamber
2. They are a maintenance nightmare

I also used a mister for a couple years, and I’m less negative on those. The effect is not the same and is more natural - but I just quit using it after failing to see any extra benefit (for tortoises, anyway).


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## wellington (Oct 4, 2020)

Many use warm air humidifiers as I did when my tort was a hatchling. I don't recall ever reading about any problems due to using one. Heck many humans use them at night blowing right at them.
With a closed chamber it isn't needed. Otherwise I wouldn't not use one as long as its kept clean. Personally they can be a pain and don't seem to last long. I went thru 3 at least in just one year of my torts first year.


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## Dlamonda (Oct 5, 2020)

MemeTheory said:


> We're working with what we got - I wasn't going to get a tort until I had a yard, but this guy was NOT thriving in the pet store I found him in earlier this year, so I decided to make it work with what we got. I've been growing the enclosures with him - this is #3.


I feel bad so many people being sarcastic. Getting your tort out of a petstore was heroic! They end up sick and suffering. I have spent over $700 getting my Russian well. Your doing right by him, good for you and him. We unfortunately learn as we go. All I can say is read everything you can get your hands on. And find a good reptile vet. I was so lucky. Your doing great! Just saying


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