# Straining, passing undigested food, NO stones or parasites, MUCUS in urine. Ideas?



## jockma (Sep 5, 2018)

Long time no post...truth is, I moved overseas for 2 years and didn’t want to think about my boy. I missed him too much and felt horrible leaving him behind for so long but there was nothing I could do.

The people who cared for him while I was gone did a great job. He became HUGE. Weighs 8 lbs now...nice and plump, seemed healthy. I moved to a different city so he had to go through the stressful moving process. I noticed some diarrhea the first week but it was consistent with the previous times he’s had to move.

Then he started passing undigested food...I fed Mazuri to bulk up the poops and that worked to an extent, but the undigested food persisted. I thought it was because I fed him blueberries. He was otherwise asymptomatic so I thought I’d give it time.

Then he started straining so hard his phallus would prolapse. I immediately took him to the vet and got an x-ray and fecal done. Both came back normal, the only thing of note was his guts seemed pretty empty in the x-ray. His tail is also slightly swollen (from the straining?).

He’s active and alert...has an appetite...poops every day or every other day, and is able to poop in his enclosure without the assistance of a soak...in fact most of the day he’s perfectly fine, then he’ll suddenly behave like he’s in total desperation to get whatever’s bothering him out of his body and strain so hard I can hear him grunting from two rooms away.

Then he peed on the kitchen floor during his meal and it had mucus in it, it also smelled awful. If he has flagellates it would explain the undigested food, and I believe I’ve seen some of you guys say they don’t show up well on fecal float tests, but I just don’t know. And what about the straining? I’ve never heard of flagellates causing that, only nematodes...which his fecal float came back negative for as well.

I’m worried sick and listening to him suffering is like torture for me, and it can only be worse for him. Soaking him seems to relieve the discomfort which makes me wonder if it’s a cloacal issue. He sleeps with his butt in his water dish sometimes if he has an “episode” at night. The vet said he can’t help me, so I’m going to make an appointment for another vet farther away who is more experienced with tortoises.

I gave him Benebac every other day these past few days and at first it seemed to be working, he wasn’t straining much at all and his poops started looking more normal, then tonight he was straining full-force. He’s still 100% asymptomatic besides the straining and poop/pee abnormalities, he eats well and is active like always. I have no idea how to proceed and it would give me some peace of mind if any of you had any ideas in case this next vet also says he can’t help me.

I don’t want my boy to keep suffering like this.


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## TammyJ (Sep 5, 2018)

The other more experienced (reptile?) vet seems the obvious way to go on this. All the best!


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## jockma (Sep 5, 2018)

First available appointment is the day after tomorrow. 

His tail is really swollen now after straining all night. Yet he ate his meal and is walking around as usual.

I’m getting a smear fecal test at the vet so hopefully he produces a nice poop for me.


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## wellington (Sep 5, 2018)

I would try feeding more watery foods. Cucumber, water melon, aloe, cactus and give him soaks in the tub so he has lots of room to move around and get things moving. He may be straining cuz of hard poops or a partial blockage. The warm soak in a large area like a tub helps. Soak for a long time like an hour and make sure he moves a lot. 
Good luck


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## jockma (Sep 5, 2018)

@wellington I’m afraid to feed more watery food because his poop is quite loose...just barely holds its shape in water. He managed to poop a ton in his soak just now. His poops are coming out kind of flat, I don’t know if it’s a blockage or from the tail swelling. The x-ray showed no stones or pebbles or anything in his gut...I’m worried he has an organic blockage like hair or something...but would that show up in an x-ray?

The vets office just called and someone canceled their appointment so he’s going tomorrow at 4 PM, thankfully.


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## jockma (Sep 5, 2018)

Here’s the fecal sample I took from his soak...it completely collapses and loses its structure once removed from the water.


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## domalle (Sep 5, 2018)

jockma said:


> Long time no post...truth is, I moved overseas for 2 years and didn’t want to think about my boy. I missed him too much and felt horrible leaving him behind for so long but there was nothing I could do.
> 
> The people who cared for him while I was gone did a great job. He became HUGE. Weighs 8 lbs now...nice and plump, seemed healthy. I moved to a different city so he had to go through the stressful moving process. I noticed some diarrhea the first week but it was consistent with the previous times he’s had to move.
> 
> ...




Don't think blueberries are the culprit although I would withhold them for the time being. Berries of any kind are known to cause food allergy.
And now is no time to introduce any unfamiliar foods that might upset his balance further.

Mucus usually accompanies gastric distress of some kind. It can show up in urine as well as stool when there is a disturbance, imbalance or irregularity.

We have had Redfoots experience repeated sharp intake of breath and withdrawal into shell after ingesting something that didn't agree with them. If it persists we use a small amount of Activia yogurt mixed in the food; in advanced cases, feces from a healthy tortoise. It usually clears relatively quickly.

But since he's been subjected to some recent changes of location and care, he may be coming down with a cold as well which will eventually lead to loss of appetite.

I hope it's not a routine to have him out on the kitchen floor. He may have picked up a foreign object.

Redfoots are remarkably resilient creatures.

Best of luck with the more informed vet. It's worth the trip.


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## jockma (Sep 5, 2018)

@domalle No it’s not a routine, I fed him on the kitchen floor after he knocked his food bowl over and put him back in his enclosure when he ate it all, I replaced his food bowl with a large heavy one for big dogs and haven’t fed him in the kitchen since...The benebac seemed to be helping for a few days but he’s still passing undigested food...

Thinking back...yesterday morning he seemed so much better that I fed him some shredded carrots...I recall him being able to digest them well in the past but it wasn’t wise to give him something he doesn’t eat often when his digestion is compromised...


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## jockma (Sep 6, 2018)

He’s got flagellates, huge numbers...I feel so awful...his tail also got even more swollen, his penis is raw and inflamed from all the straining and the substrate getting stuck to it.

No edema has been noted (aside from the tail) and he is nice and chubby, hungry and active. Prognosis is good but there’s still the possibility of hexamita and kidney damage.

The vet confidently said “no” when I asked if Bean was gonna die, so I feel a little better.

The vet said soapy water and LOTS of scrubbing was sufficient to sanitize the enclosure after a flagellate problem, since their cysts are so durable even bleach isn’t guaranteed to kill them so mechanical scrubbing is best, but if anyone here has any advice for dealing with them I’d love to hear it!


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## ZEROPILOT (Sep 6, 2018)

Am I mistaken or is this mostly attributed to eating snails?
What type of enclosure do you have?
And is it outdoors?


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## jockma (Sep 6, 2018)

I’ve seen him eating snails before but he’s always been an indoor tort. I’d let him out on good days that weren’t too hot/dry (I lived in Los Angeles, now I live in the Bay Area) and his last fecal right before I left 2 years ago came back clear.

HOWEVER the people caring for him while I was gone for 2 years did eventually move the entire enclosure outdoors. It’s a closed top enclosure but maybe some bugs, snails, bird poop etc could’ve gotten in? I know for a fact he’s never even seen another tortoise as long as I’ve had him.


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## ZEROPILOT (Sep 6, 2018)

Redfoot eat anything.
It's always a struggle.


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## jockma (Sep 6, 2018)

Yep, he had an impacted acorn a few years back. I still can’t figure out how he even managed to swallow it, or how he was able to get it out. I let him eat the snails because I thought they’d be good for him, from now on he only eats what I give to him.

I went to check on him and he was standing up on his hind legs trying to get out of his temp enclosure. I know he should be fine but I feel like crap. My poor baby.


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## domalle (Sep 6, 2018)

jockma said:


> He’s got flagellates, huge numbers...I feel so awful...his tail also got even more swollen, his penis is raw and inflamed from all the straining and the substrate getting stuck to it.
> 
> No edema has been noted (aside from the tail) and he is nice and chubby, hungry and active. Prognosis is good but there’s still the possibility of hexamita and kidney damage.
> 
> ...



Besides the hygiene recommendation and scrubbing, what did the vet treat the turtle with?


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## jockma (Sep 6, 2018)

@domalle

1. Flagyl once every 3 days, I believe for 8 treatments.

2. Antibiotics daily, 14 days minimum, for the swelling and inflammation of his penis which looks like it’s beyond mechanical trauma and more like a secondary bacterial infection from the constant straining and prolapsing. The vet removed large chunks of substrate really buried into the tissue folds of the penis and rinsed the cloaca but found no necrosis thankfully, just extreme inflammation and redness. I do not want to risk Bean being castrated so to speak, and he will need to be if the tissue becomes necrotic.

I’m also going to keep up with the probiotics.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 7, 2018)

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but a vet has to specifically check for flagellates. They aren't seen on a normal poop check.


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## ZEROPILOT (Sep 7, 2018)

Yvonne G said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but a vet has to specifically check for flagellates. They aren't seen on a normal poop check.


They're much tinier, aren't they?


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## jockma (Sep 7, 2018)

Yvonne G said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but a vet has to specifically check for flagellates. They aren't seen on a normal poop check.



The second vet said so too, a fecal smear had to be done to see the flagellates.

By the way, in the Bay Area this diagnosis + medication (across two vets) cost $700.  I’m really happy I was referred to this second vet though, he’s hands down the best herp vet I’ve met.

Bean has not strained at all since the vet visit. He has been producing a lot of mucus-y diarrhea, though. Does that mean the Flagyl is working?


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## domalle (Sep 8, 2018)

@jockma 
The stress of the lengthy absence and the possibly less suitable substitute care received may have contributed to the proliferation of the parasites. But don't beat yourself up about it. It is clear that you are a responsible caregiver and keeper. Despite the expense you have consulted two veterinarians and received what sounds like an accurate diagnosis and a reasonable course of treatment.

Our Redfoots sample just about anything palatable they discover on the ground in the course of their travels. Earthworms, slugs, fungi, bird droppings, small dead animals; all are devoured eagerly during the season outside in a semi-wild, free range state. To my mind, the beneficial aspects of natural sunlight, fresh air, free graze, clover, dandelion, plantain, fallen leaves, fruits and flowers outweigh other risks they might be subject to or encounter.

Flagyl (metronidazole) is very bitter and difficult to administer except through intubation. I used it on a newly acquired animal that was depleted and off feed. The tortoise recovered and lived on with us for many years thereafter.

Was your tortoise left with the vet for the course of treatment or were you instructed in the administration of the medication?


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## jockma (Sep 8, 2018)

I’m giving it myself. He is extremely food-motivated and I got the pills, so I can easily wrap or stuff it in something he likes to eat and he’ll swallow it whole. He had to be treated with Flagyl when I got him due to an extreme parasite problem but I can’t remember how we gave it. Tomorrow is his next dose of Flagyl, if I can’t manage it myself I’ll bring him in for intubation.

I’m really relieved that your tort recovered from flagellates, I haven’t dealt with it since I got Bean and I don’t know what to expect. I live in the city so I don’t have big lush yards for him to enjoy, just little patios, I want to live in the country someday so he can have a nicer place to live outside.


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## jockma (Sep 8, 2018)

I hate to say it. I’m already almost at my limit.

He constantly gets diarrhea, which requires sanitizing his temp enclosure. He hates the temp enclosure and two or three times a day I find him and the temp enclosure completely smeared in feces since he pooped while trying to escape. I can’t watch him all day, so I’m constantly worried that he’s pooped and has eaten it or has been sitting in it for hours.

I put him in a soak in a smaller tub and he managed to poop in it then flip it over, spilling it all over the bathroom floor. I usually use his temp enclosure to soak him instead but I can’t when it’s full of poop.

His regular enclosure is 5’x7’. Can I put him in there instead of his temp enclosure? Would that sabotage the treatment, since I can’t clean it as easily?


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## domalle (Sep 8, 2018)

jockma said:


> I hate to say it. I’m already almost at my limit.
> 
> He constantly gets diarrhea, which requires sanitizing his temp enclosure. He hates the temp enclosure and two or three times a day I find him and the temp enclosure completely smeared in feces since he pooped while trying to escape. I can’t watch him all day, so I’m constantly worried that he’s pooped and has eaten it or has been sitting in it for hours.
> 
> ...



Understandable that you are at wit's end. While the diarrheal spasms are occurring and treatment is underway, a bland diet is necessary. Banana is not a recommended staple part of a Redfoot's regular diet because of the skewed Calcium to Phosphorus ratio but it can be used as an aid in calming the spasms and helping to remediate the loose stool.

Do what you can within human limits. It's stressful. I would keep him confined in a fairly deep escape proof rubbermaid or plastic easily hosed down storage container on layers of newspaper that can be changed and discarded quickly when soiled. If you can do that frequently enough you won't have to scrub everything down every time.

The parasites will be recycled in the regular enclosure and cause reinfection.

The diarrhea will gradually alleviate. Hang in there. And practice the utmost personal hygiene while handling the turtle and performing all procedures to avoid any potential risk to yourself.


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## jockma (Sep 9, 2018)

Unfortunately, his temp enclosure IS a rubbermaid container...I feel I should just buy another one dedicated for soaking. I was hoping I could clean out his enclosure (it’s a metal frame pool) and clean up the poop as needed and wipe it down with soap and water every day. But I can’t deep clean it like the rubbermaid.

Unfortunately the diarrhea “trickles” throughout the day, when he DOES get it on the paper towels I lay down for him it’s usually a small amount. I discard it, wipe down the enclosure, and it stops. I check on him every 10 minutes when I’m home. It feels like he only has a lot of diarrhea when I’m not able to check on him and I feel horrible to see it stuck all on his feet.

I’ll switch the paper towels to newspaper since it should be harder for him to push out of the way and poop outside of.

How clean does the enclosure have to be to prevent reinfection? I mean, once I’ve removed all the visible debris, do I need to scrub with bleach, soak with bleach, etc? I’m worried to use bleach in case it harms him.


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## Kasia (Sep 9, 2018)

jockma said:


> I hate to say it. I’m already almost at my limit.
> 
> He constantly gets diarrhea, which requires sanitizing his temp enclosure. He hates the temp enclosure and two or three times a day I find him and the temp enclosure completely smeared in feces since he pooped while trying to escape. I can’t watch him all day, so I’m constantly worried that he’s pooped and has eaten it or has been sitting in it for hours.
> 
> ...


Hi
Symptoms you have described are a result of the treatment unfortunately... antibiotics and flagyl wiped the good GI track flora along with the protozoa. Mine leopard tortoise had for a long time after the treatment loose, bad smelling stool. I didn’t have the opportunity to try it but only reasonable solution I have found was feeding him a healthy tortoise’s stool to restore the good bacteria gut flora (same species). After 6 months or so it returned to almost normal state. Be patient...


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## jockma (Sep 9, 2018)

I noticed he gets diarrhea right after the antibiotics but wasn’t sure it would happen so quickly so didn’t make the connection...I can definitely start giving them when I come home for the day and hopefully it’ll be easier to manage. I already gave the Flagyl this morning, no diarrhea yet...

I ordered more probiotics, I have no access to healthy tort poop so hopefully this will help.


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## domalle (Sep 9, 2018)

The symptoms are clearly not the result of the treatment. They were manifest before the veterinarian was consulted and the course of medication initiated.


The condition called 'scour', the complete elimination of intestinal gut flora, both good and bad, that @Kasia refers to can occur as a result of medication for parasites, especially metronidazole. I would not expect it so early in treatment if it were to occur. The use of probiotics in concert with these medications, which can be harsh, is always advisable. The use of a prepared fecal sample from a healthy tortoise of the same species is a matter of last resort.

These conditions are highly idiosyncratic. We really can't predict how or how long they will take to clear.

I hope that Kasia's Leopard tortoise has recovered fully and is thriving and that your Bean will be in time as well.


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## Kasia (Sep 9, 2018)

domalle said:


> The symptoms are clearly not the result of the treatment. They were manifest before the veterinarian was consulted and the course of medication initiated.
> 
> 
> The condition called 'scour', the complete elimination of intestinal gut flora, both good and bad, that @Kasia refers to can occur as a result of medication for parasites, especially metronidazole. I would not expect it so early in treatment if it were to occur. The use of probiotics in concert with these medications, which can be harsh, is always advisable. The use of a prepared fecal sample from a healthy tortoise of the same species is a matter of last resort.
> ...


I went trough the posts and reffered to the last post after giving him antibiotics/vet visit...protozoa, treatment isnt as „easy” as going for pinworms with pancur - appetite is back but putting antibiotics into already strained system will not result in an instant recovery, more likely additional side effects.


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## Kasia (Sep 9, 2018)

In short diarrhea might not go away.


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## domalle (Sep 10, 2018)

@Kasia 
Your points were well taken and a worthy contribution to the discussion.
I hope Jockma can take some comfort and encouragement from our joint input and attempts to help.


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## jockma (Sep 10, 2018)

Poop was less wet today!!! It was much easier to clean up, I was able to catch it when it started and got the rest out in a soak. He also peed and it had no mucus!

However I’m going insane hearing him bumping around in his temp enclosure. I’ve already cleaned out all the substrate in his large enclosure and scrubbed with soapy water. Can I keep him in there and spot clean it when he poops, then deep clean when I put the new substrate in? He is so unhappy in his temp enclosure and doesn’t have room to walk around much, it makes me feel really awful.


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## jockma (Sep 10, 2018)

Especially since he may need to be in the temp enclosure for the duration of the treatment.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 11, 2018)

How about trying this - next time you roll up a pill burrito, include some cut up blades of grass inside the burrito. Maybe the grass will help give some fiber and tighten up the stool a bit.


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## jockma (Sep 11, 2018)

No pill burritos here, just popping the pills in his mouth when he opens it to take a bite of something and several seconds of him giving me the stink eye before finishing his meal. He’s always been easy to medicate. I can make a burrito for the grass specifically.

Would hay or something similar (like for feeding rabbits) be okay? I can’t think of any grassy areas in this city that aren’t probably sprayed to oblivion with pesticides.


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## jockma (Sep 12, 2018)

Poop was almost normal today. Came out soft but in a nice log shape, no undigested particles whatsoever. I’m trying to think of what I fed him to get it to improve so quickly. I got a new tub of Benebac 2 days ago and gave some every day since then. I wonder if my last pack of Benebac was expired or something.


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## jockma (Sep 16, 2018)

Blood test came back normal except for the infection. Uric acid was in the high normal range, the vet interpreted this as a result of the general inflammation in the cloacal region.

He started straining again yesterday and passed a ton of undigested food. I’m scared this means there’s been some sort of relapse and the Flagyl isn’t working properly. He’s been on it for 10 days now. His pee was normal today and he hasn’t strained since last night. I don’t know what to expect with flagellate treatment...


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