# Tortoise trouble--help, please!



## tricatschool (Jan 25, 2010)

I've read that baby tortoises have soft shells. When my California Desert Tortoises were newly hatched (they're 3 mo. old now), they did have a *slightly* soft shell. Since then, they've grown a lot, and I haven't noticed a difference in their shells. Today I noticed that all four have soft plastrons. Is this a normal part of their development?

They're in an enclosure with a heat rock, heat lamp, UVB lamp and sun from the window. I water them twice a week (I have just added, in the last week, two drops of avian vitamins to their 'bath' water.), and feed them mixed greens liberally sprinkled with calcium. They also have a cuttlebone, and they do chew on it. I've found several food lists that work for winter and my area, and I am feeding them a mixed diet. Until it got cooler here (It's rarely cold in San Diego!) they were grazing on the grass, clover and dandelions in my yard for a good part of the day.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Tric
Gopherus agassizii 1.1.4
Bumper, Arnold, Cincinatus, Gregor, Constant and Random


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## Yvonne G (Jan 26, 2010)

This is a very common occurrence with baby desert tortoises. My sister gets the liquid calcium from her vet to administer to the babies. I think she said it was called Calcionate. If you don't get them hardened up, they will just keep getting softer and you will eventually be able to see through the plastron, then they die. However, she has brought almost all of them back to health. 

Just as a side note, the glass from the window effectively filters out the UV from the sun, so if your UV light isn't giving off any good rays, the babies are not getting UV to help the calcium work. How old is your light? And what brand is it?


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## -EJ (Jan 26, 2010)

Try feeding Mazuri tortoise diet with a little calcium carbonate mixed in.



tricatschool said:


> I've read that baby tortoises have soft shells. When my California Desert Tortoises were newly hatched (they're 3 mo. old now), they did have a *slightly* soft shell. Since then, they've grown a lot, and I haven't noticed a difference in their shells. Today I noticed that all four have soft plastrons. Is this a normal part of their development?
> 
> They're in an enclosure with a heat rock, heat lamp, UVB lamp and sun from the window. I water them twice a week (I have just added, in the last week, two drops of avian vitamins to their 'bath' water.), and feed them mixed greens liberally sprinkled with calcium. They also have a cuttlebone, and they do chew on it. I've found several food lists that work for winter and my area, and I am feeding them a mixed diet. Until it got cooler here (It's rarely cold in San Diego!) they were grazing on the grass, clover and dandelions in my yard for a good part of the day.
> 
> ...


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## Tom (Jan 26, 2010)

Get them out in the sun as soon as, and as much as possible. This will help more than anything else. Also, post a pic of your "clover", it may be oxalis, which is high in calcium binding oxalates. I mistakenly fed this as "clover" for many years, before I learned the difference. Make sure the foods you are feeding are low in oxalates too. Spinach and some of the cabbages, as well as a few of the leafy greens, have more oxalates than some of the other. Dandelions have a great Ca/Phosphorus ratio and so does spineless opuntia cactus. Try to find some of these. Most "ethnic" grocery stores will stock both or you can find your own for free.

Lastly, but somewhat unrelated to your post, you do know you need to keep them humid as babies to prevent pyramiding, right?

Good luck, and please let us know how it turns out.


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## tricatschool (Jan 26, 2010)

Roachman26 said:


> Get them out in the sun as soon as, and as much as possible. This will help more than anything else. Also, post a pic of your "clover", it may be oxalis, which is high in calcium binding oxalates. I mistakenly fed this as "clover" for many years, before I learned the difference. Make sure the foods you are feeding are low in oxalates too. Spinach and some of the cabbages, as well as a few of the leafy greens, have more oxalates than some of the other. Dandelions have a great Ca/Phosphorus ratio and so does spineless opuntia cactus. Try to find some of these. Most "ethnic" grocery stores will stock both or you can find your own for free.
> 
> Lastly, but somewhat unrelated to your post, you do know you need to keep them humid as babies to prevent pyramiding, right?
> 
> Good luck, and please let us know how it turns out.


Thanks for the reply.
It's in the mid-to-low 60s here now. Is that too cold for them to be out grazing? My adults are hibernating now, and have been for several months. 

I have a kale plant (in potting soil) placed in the timothy grass pellets that I'm using for the enclosure substrate. I placed it there because I wanted to provide a more 'realistic' environment and a place to hide. It might help with humidity, but I didn't know that was an issue. It is really dry here most of the year, and I've never dealt with hatchlings before. I thought I'd read really fully as to the needs of my babies, but now I'm feeling that I've been wandering in the dark.

The clover that they grazed on has died down until Spring, so I can't post that photo.

Are you thinking I'm seeing MBD, or is sunlight am immediate remedy to soft plastrons? (They're almost 'squishy'.)

Thanks, again!
Tric
Gopherus agassizii 1.1.4
Bumper, Arnold, Cincinatus, Gregor, Constant and Random


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## Yvonne G (Jan 26, 2010)

No, sunlight isn't a remedy. What the remedy is is calcium PLUS sunlight. The calcium makes the bones and shell hard, but it can't be absorbed by the body without the sun (or UVB from an expensive light). Without enough calcium from the food the tortoise eats, the body takes the calcium from the bones and shell. 

If you can find a sheltered spot up next to the house where the sun's warmth is concentrated and no wind, you can place your little guys' habitat there for a bit so they can soak up the sun. But they need either a food high in calcium or a calcium supplement to go along with the sun.


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## -EJ (Jan 26, 2010)

Calcium and vitamin D3 is an alternate method to calcium and direct sunshine. With the calcium and D3 sunshine is not necessary.

Mazuri contains D3 among other nutrients that are beneficial to proper development.


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## tricatschool (Jan 26, 2010)

I'll get them into the sun.

I'm using a reptile light with UVB, that's supposed to be good for a year (It has a place to write the date so you don't forget to replace it.), that I've had on them for about 8 weeks. Prior to that they were outside grazing for a good part of the day. I do put calcium on their food. I haven't seen a tortoise food in my local pet shop that seems to meet their needs, so I'll look for the Mazuri on line.

Thanks!
Tric
Gopherus agassizii 1.1.4
Bumper, Arnold, Cincinatus, Gregor, Constant and Random


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## Yvonne G (Jan 26, 2010)

But this is a "maintenance" measure. This is good for if the tortoises' plastron were NOT soft. Because you already are seeing the results of no calcium and D3, you need to take a little more drastic measure. See if the vet will sell you some liquid calcium. You just put a few drops in their mouth towards the back. Then if they'll eat the Mazuri, that would be good because like Ed said, it contains the D3 needed to absorb the calcium. You can buy a small amount of Mazuri from Spikethebest here on the forum and he's in SoCal. Or, use the liquid calcium then put them in the sun (but don't cook them). Whatever you do, after the plastron has firmed up, then you can go to the maintenance diet with just a little supplementation.


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## spikethebest (Jan 26, 2010)

Hi Tric,

I sell Mazuri tortoise food. I just sent you a PM. Let me know if you would like me to ship you a sample box.


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## Tom (Jan 26, 2010)

Yvonne's advice is good and correct, as always. Deal with the immediate problem first.

I'm concerned with how and why this could have happened. If they were getting some occasional sunlight and an indoor UV bulb plus a good diet and supplementation, you shouldn't have encountered this problem. It makes me think there is a dietary issue robbing them of calcium. If that IS the problem and you don't fix it, it won't matter how much supplementation you use. I think I remember Kale as being somewhat high in oxalates. Not as bad as some, but higher than others. Fine for once in a while, but I wouldn't feed it frequently. I suspect the "clover" was oxalis. Do you recall what the flowers looked like on the clover you fed? Either way, Yvonne's advice should fix it, if this was the problem.

My tropical species of torts come out and graze when temps are in the forties or fifties, but then they retreat to their heated den box to warm up. Your babies should be fine for an hour or so if its in the sixties and they are, like Yvonne said, out of the wind and somewhat sheltered. Sunlight, in my experience works better than anything at helping to harden up soft shells. However, it won't work without the proper diet too.

Your next issue is humidity. Babies need it or they will pyramid. I would change your substrate to something that will hold moisture and add a humid hide box. This has nothing to do with your soft shells, but it is something that should be remedied asap.


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## Shelly (Jan 26, 2010)

Roachman26 said:


> Your next issue is humidity. Babies need it or they will pyramid..



I raised one of my Desert Torts from a 2 week old hatchling to 10 years old in a BONE dry environment, and I think she looks very nice. If there is any pyramiding, it's extremely mild.


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## Tom (Jan 26, 2010)

Shelly said:


> Roachman26 said:
> 
> 
> > Your next issue is humidity. Babies need it or they will pyramid..
> ...



Hi Shelly. Very nice looking tort. Very mild pyramiding. What part of the world do you live in? Is it relatively humid there? Did your baby spend a lot of time on green grass like in the pic? 

All of the deserts that I have raised from hatchlings have all pyramided, because its very dry here all year round and until a couple of years ago I had no idea that they needed to be raised with ANY humidity. So mine had single digit humidity most of the year, no humid hide box and dry substrate. They also had a great, varied diet, lots of sunshine and exercise(in a big, dry, dirt pen) and regular soaks.

Do you think lack of humidity doesn't make them pyramid?


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## -EJ (Jan 27, 2010)

That is a very impressive DT. Actually kind of small for 10 years old but really impressive.



Shelly said:


> I raised one of my Desert Torts from a 2 week old hatchling to 10 years old in a BONE dry environment, and I think she looks very nice. If there is any pyramiding, it's extremely mild.


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## tricatschool (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks, everyone! This was definitely the right place to come to for help!

I didn't know about the humidity needs for the babies; what do you suggest as a substrate? I know sand can be problematic with compaction issues, and clearly won't hold much moisture. I think they'd love sterile potting soil that they could dig in, but I thought that would be too wet. Ideas?

The flowers on the 'clover' were yellow, and came up on a long stalk. 

The only thing new that I did prior to the soft plastrons was to add two drops of avian vitamins to their 'bath' water. They'd soaked twice in that water (for about ten minutes--after that long they get bored and wander away) before the plastron issue. I've discontinued the vitamins until I resolve this problem and get advice from the forum.

They're spending the day outside today, and I've ordered the food and calcium. The food I've been feeding has been from a list I've culled from four or five sites. I only went for food that they all agree on including: kale, mustard greens, dandelions, endive, turnip greens, watercress, and green beans. If there's a short list I should be using, please let me know.

What's a 'humid hide box'?

Thanks, again, everyone! I can't begin to express how grateful I am for all this help and advice.


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## Shelly (Jan 27, 2010)

I live in the San Fernando Valley in the Los Angeles area. "Philbert" was kept in a flower planter that was all dry dirt for the first 3-4 years of his life. At night I would put him in an aquarium that also had dry dirt in it (to avoid raccoons, mainly).
From 4-8 years, he was kept in a section of my yard that was about %80 cement, with some grass and dirt. For the last 2 years, he has the run of my grassy yard. 
He is somewhat small, but was always that way. He was noticibly smaller than his 3 siblings, all of which I adopted out.
BTW, I referred to him as a "Her" in my first post, because I thought he was a female until just this past fall, when he "exposed" himself. I keep forgetting that she's a he!


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## tricatschool (Jan 27, 2010)

Roachman26 said:


> Get them out in the sun as soon as, and as much as possible. This will help more than anything else. Also, post a pic of your "clover", it may be oxalis, which is high in calcium binding oxalates. I mistakenly fed this as "clover" for many years, before I learned the difference. Make sure the foods you are feeding are low in oxalates too. Spinach and some of the cabbages, as well as a few of the leafy greens, have more oxalates than some of the other. Dandelions have a great Ca/Phosphorus ratio and so does spineless opuntia cactus. Try to find some of these. Most "ethnic" grocery stores will stock both or you can find your own for free.
> 
> Lastly, but somewhat unrelated to your post, you do know you need to keep them humid as babies to prevent pyramiding, right?
> 
> Good luck, and please let us know how it turns out.


I looked at a post with pictures, and my 'clover' is definitely an oxalis. The flowers ar trumpet shaped, not globe-shaped.

They won't be eating that anymore, and I let it all reseed in my grass to have variety next Spring! I guess I'll be weeding as the babies are sunning.


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## Sudhira (Jan 27, 2010)

Shelly said:


> Roachman26 said:
> 
> 
> > Your next issue is humidity. Babies need it or they will pyramid..
> ...




Beautiful tort, wow, hope our little guy will grow up to be that lovely!


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## Tom (Jan 27, 2010)

tricatschool said:


> Roachman26 said:
> 
> 
> > Get them out in the sun as soon as, and as much as possible. This will help more than anything else. Also, post a pic of your "clover", it may be oxalis, which is high in calcium binding oxalates. I mistakenly fed this as "clover" for many years, before I learned the difference. Make sure the foods you are feeding are low in oxalates too. Spinach and some of the cabbages, as well as a few of the leafy greens, have more oxalates than some of the other. Dandelions have a great Ca/Phosphorus ratio and so does spineless opuntia cactus. Try to find some of these. Most "ethnic" grocery stores will stock both or you can find your own for free.
> ...



Well, I'd guess that was the source of your problem. Don't feel bad I, and a lot of other people, did the same thing. Live and learn. You've already got lots of advice on how to fix the problem. They'll probably be fine.

Substrate is a matter of some debate, but most people mix soil, sand, orchid bark, coco fiber, aspen bedding or cypress bedding. I've used all of them at one time or another and I prefer a soil/fine coco fiber/orchid bark mix. You can dampen your substrate by misting or just dumping a little water on one side, so your tort can choose a wetter or dryer area.

A humid hide box is just an appropriately sized plastic box with a lid and an entry hole big enough for your tort and a few small vent holes drilled near the top. You fill it with soil or fine coco fiber and dampen it. Since its pretty well closed up it stays humid in there. You can semi-bury it and it will look nice and somewhat simulate the natural burrows that a baby tort would use. I like to use really big enclosures with a hide box on the warm AND cool side.

The whole pyramiding thing is still a subject of debate, but a lot of tortoises raised in seemingly ideal conditions will still pyramid. The only consistent factor I've seen is a lack of humidity. I know its a different species, but go to the Riparian Farms website and read what Richard Fife has to say about it. Sorry, I don't know how to post a link, so you'll have to look it up.

Please keep us posted.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 28, 2010)

To post a link, you go to the site yourself, then "copy" the web address at the top of the page. Come back to your "reply" window and "paste" what you copied:

http://www.ivorytortoise.com/information/documents/pyramiding_in_tortoises.html


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## augustsalbert (Mar 25, 2010)

Soft shell is always an indication of a problem if the tortoise is more than a month or so old. This condition often leads to the death of small tortoises. A deficiency of calcium and lack of sunlight are the primary causes. All tortoises have soft shells on hatching, but by the time they are a week old a slight firming of the shell should have taken place. To overcome this problem the addition of calcium lactate or simply a block of plaster-of-paris to the water has been widely advocated and is undoubtedly of some benefit, but the most reliable course is to offer the hatchlings only a natural diet. Another treatment is the addition of 500mg of aureomycin or terramycin to the water of an average size aquarium. These antibiotics are effective against other ailments which often accompany the soft-shell condition.​


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## Yvonne G (Mar 25, 2010)

Just a note to clarify: Augustsalbert advice is good for baby water turtles.


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## Shelly (Mar 25, 2010)

emysemys said:


> Just a note to clarify: Augustsalbert advice is good for baby water turtles.



Augustsalbert's advice was copied and pasted from this page click


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## Yvonne G (Mar 25, 2010)

Yes, that figures. They refer to water turtles as "tortoises" in Australia. So far no overt spamming, so we're letting the rope out bit by bit!


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