# Tortoise Sex changing after two?



## wellington (Sep 10, 2014)

I was just wondering if anyone has actually seen a tortoises sex actually change after the age of two? What I mean, if at two years, all the guess and the pics of the plastron, tail, etc looks say female, has anyone actually seen one that then say at 2 1/2 or so, then changed positivity into a male or vise versa?


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## wellington (Sep 10, 2014)

@Yvonne G @Tom @N2TORTS @tortadise @Neal @DeanS @ALDABRAMAN @Jacqui and f course anyone else that has


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## N2TORTS (Sep 10, 2014)

it does not really "change" ......but the guestimate maybe wrong. Happens all the time with young/smaller animals. especially those odd balls who don't fit the "norm" characteristics .
2.5 years is still rather young in the redfoot dept. ......I would also imagine different species have different maturity rates that would lead to a more accurate guess while still young.


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## Neal (Sep 10, 2014)

Like JD said, it's not that the tortoises sex changed, it's that the original guess was wrong. Some individual tortoises can be very difficult to accurately sex without endoscopy. As the tortoise grows the characteristics that we use to determine a tortoises sex become more clear and original guess will often prove to be incorrect.


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## DeanS (Sep 10, 2014)

My two original baby sulcatas, Jimmy and Climber (later Jamie and Monstro) both appeared male at the start. At around 3 years old Jimmy became Jamie...then at 4 reverted back to Jimmy...and, subsequently, was rehomed due to his brother's fascination with mating...all day long!


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## diamondbp (Sep 10, 2014)

I have some two year old sulcatas from my first self hatched clutch ever that keep boggling my mind on what sex they are. Just when I was certain they were males and after rehoming all but one, the remaining one is now looking quite female. 

Even though I've dealt with tortoises for years I've never ever had a male tortoise flash me and I soak my tortoises quite often.


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## wellington (Sep 10, 2014)

Wow Dean, that's very interesting. Confused tort for sure. Lol. 
Incase I didn't state it right, I didn't mean their sex changed as much I as meant the look of the sex at two. I'm not good at explaining, but I think you got what I mean. Just keep hoping there's an early sign that has been missed. I so hate the waiting game. Although, I now do know what I have for sure, as long as one doesn't do what Deans did.
Thanks


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## Tom (Sep 10, 2014)

I agree with all of the above. You just can't tell on some of them for a while. Remember my stunted adult sulcatas? For almost 8 years, I was sure Bert was a female. Small head, small tail, no plastron concavity, small gulars, he even BEHAVED very female, and the anal scutes were in between. He ain't no girl now. He's bigger than his brother and was whooping some brother a$$ before I separated them. Even to this day his gulars and head are tiny compared to Bert. During his ninth year the tail grew tremendously and the plastron concavity really began to show. He has doubled his size since then and is now obviously a male, but at 8 years old and 30-35 pounds, I guessed wrong. I knew his brother Scooter was a male at about 2-3 years old. It was obvious on him, but some just don't show it. Typically people guess female on young ones and then the secondary sexual characteristics begin to show when they are closer to maturity. I can usually tell on sulcatas and leopards by 3-4 years of age, but there are those occasional ones that you just can't tell. Especially if they were raised dry and stunted.


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## wellington (Sep 10, 2014)

Wow that's a long time, 8 years. So, having a small more petite head isn't a reliable sign either. On another thread, we have noticed that a lot of males, mostly leopards seem to have a bigger more male looking head/face, while the females have a more feminine, smaller female looking head/face. Was kinda hoping this could be an early sign to look for.


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## tortadise (Sep 10, 2014)

Yep I've have numerous species go both ways, male and ended being female, female and ended being male, well after 2 years too. Some Redfoots around 6-7 years old. Marginated around 7-8 years old. Manouria are very tough to sex until 10-15 years old. My radiated I had to get scoped at 11 years old and was a male, when I was certain was a female. But those are very tough to sex unless 15-20 years old anyways.


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## wellington (Sep 10, 2014)

Wow Kelly, those are some long waiting times. Holy crap. That would drive me nuts.


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## Tom (Sep 10, 2014)

wellington said:


> So, having a small more petite head isn't a reliable sign either. On another thread, we have noticed that a lot of males, mostly leopards seem to have a bigger more male looking head/face, while the females have a more feminine, smaller female looking head/face. Was kinda hoping this could be an early sign to look for.



It can be _a _sign, but it does not make it a certainty. For example 4 year old female Trey has a much bigger more male looking head than her clutchmate brother Tuck. These guys tail sizes make it obvious at 4 years old, plus Tuck is now flashing with some regularity.

To summarize: Sometimes with some species you can tell at 3 years old with some level of certainty, but some individuals of any species it can be difficult to tell for many years, until maturity really.


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## tortadise (Sep 10, 2014)

wellington said:


> Wow Kelly, those are some long waiting times. Holy crap. That would drive me nuts.


It's tortoises though. Gotta practice patience.


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## wellington (Sep 10, 2014)

So I guess if they look female or look male at or around two or so, for some species, they very well could and possibly will turn out to be just that, but just don't bet the house on it, until flashed or eggs laid There will always be those that just won't follow the norm.


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## Tom (Sep 10, 2014)

wellington said:


> So I guess if they look female or look male at or around two or so, for some species, they very well could and possibly will turn out to be just that, but just don't bet the house on it, until flashed or eggs laid There will always be those that just won't follow the norm.




At two years old, you've got at least a 50/50 chance of guessing correctly with EVERY tortoise of every species!


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## wellington (Sep 10, 2014)

Can I get 80/20


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## Tom (Sep 11, 2014)

wellington said:


> Can I get 80/20


Not from me...


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## wellington (Sep 11, 2014)

Tom said:


> Not from me...



Haha


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## Yvonne G (Sep 11, 2014)

The only sure-fire way to tell on a young tortoise is when he flashes you.


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## bouaboua (Sep 11, 2014)

We had a Hermanni always consider as a she. till this happen:


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## wellington (Sep 11, 2014)

bouaboua said:


> We had a Hermanni always consider as a she. till this happen:
> 
> View attachment 95472
> View attachment 95473
> ...


But I have heard females will mount too. I don't know if they make the noise though. You can't see any boy parts in he pics, but I'm going to safely assume she was indeed a he


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## bouaboua (Sep 11, 2014)

wellington said:


> But I have heard females will mount too. I don't know if they make the noise though. You can't see any boy parts in he pics, but I'm going to safely assume she was indeed a he


You know what wellington. I surely hope that will be my case. 

I have 1.2 Hermanni. The male's tail are very thick and long, this one, who we thought were she and still hope is a SHE, have a short tail, like my other known "female's". 

It's her action that day, throw me off. I truly, truly hope she still a she. I may take some photo tomorrow.


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## wellington (Sep 11, 2014)

I hope so too for ya. Now we need to know from the people that breed a lot, does the females, when they have mounted other torts, do they do the open mouth noise thing too?


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## motero (Sep 11, 2014)

wellington said:


> I hope so too for ya. Now we need to know from the people that breed a lot, does the females, when they have mounted other torts, do they do the open mouth noise thing too?



Yes they do.


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## tortadise (Sep 11, 2014)

Yep sure do. In many species as well this can be common. Mostly it's establishing territory dominance.


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## wellington (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks. Love this forum and the people that will help to teach others that don't know. Other forums just make fun and offer nothing to help anyone. Those forums should get off their high horse and actually be of some use, then just taking up space. So glad most everyone here are willing to participate and educate, except for a few old (not in age) members that were useless anyway. Thanks TFO


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## tglazie (Sep 11, 2014)

From my experience, marginateds are almost impossible to tell until five to seven years, and even then, I remain skeptical until he, as Yvonne puts it, flashes me. Even with Lady Gino, who I now know is a lady given the she lays eggs, I was always skeptical, given that her two brothers were both flashing at age six, and they had very similar characteristics. She even has a slightly concave plastron, and her tail is not that short. I mean, it is short compared to Gino, an unrelated male and my first marginated, but given that she's the only female marginated I raised to maturity and didn't obtain as an adult or juvenile, I suppose I never really had anything to which to compare her. Then this was complicated by the fact that Lady Gino is a mean spirited beast who would hump her brothers. I was confused by this for the longest time, and my confusion started with my painted turtles, who would also engage in this ritual regardless of the gender of the chelonian getting mounted. But yeah, marginateds are tough, not that there is a species of tortoise that is easy. I couldn't tell male from female in my uncle's redfoot colony until they were all over ten inches. At that point, I was fairly certain, but even then I had my doubts, given that you look at an animal so long, you become oblivious to the gradual changes. You find yourself second guessing everything, especially if you're the sort of person who overthinks a particular problem without the cognizance to occasionally step back and, I don't know, look at an old picture. Someone needs to invent an app for this purpose. Scan your tortoise with your phone, gives you the gender and it's relation to other tortoises you've scanned. 

T.G.


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## N2TORTS (Sep 13, 2014)

wellington said:


> Thanks. Love this forum and the people that will help to teach others that don't know. Other forums just make fun and offer nothing to help anyone. Those forums should get off their high horse and actually be of some use, then just taking up space. So glad most everyone here are willing to participate and educate, except for a few old (not in age) members that were useless anyway. Thanks TFO


 
talk to me baby ……




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## wellington (Sep 13, 2014)

Hahahaha, good one.


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## Star-of-India (Sep 14, 2014)

I was surprised yesterday by this issue. I've gone from two male stars and three female stars to the opposite. My two youngest I obtained as "appear to be male and female." And it sure did seem that way.

They're both about 2 years old at the moment and the smaller of the two has been flashing all along. The larger of the two was growing quickly, never flashed and had a much smaller tail than the littler male. Seemed straight forward. I did notice recently, however, that the "female" didn't seem to be growing so fast, the caudal scute appeared to be cupping inward slightly and its smaller tail, while still small, might have been growing. 

Well I gave them their weekly soak yesterday and lo and behold the "female" made it clear that it's a male. Although it is a larger tort than the other male, it's not as well endowed, at least yet. So maybe it's just been shy in the showers/soaks. ;-). 

Well, I am disappointed about the changed sex ratio of my stars, but I will figure out how to deal, either expand the herd or lose a male or two. Right now I'm busy developing a larger home for them all as torts do clearly need roaming space and my torts have had the minimum for their size and expansion of the herd will take a back seat to that.


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