# Healthy growth rate for a CDT



## thatrebecca (Jun 2, 2013)

When we adopted our 2 juvenile CDTs 8 weeks ago, Gomez weighed 15 oz. Now he weighs 17.5 oz. Morticia weighed 11.5 oz. Now she weighs 13 oz. Is this a healthy growth rate? (Both weigh-ins were post-soak).


----------



## Tom (Jun 2, 2013)

In my opinion, yes, your growth rate is fine. This is debatable. Most people who keep DTs are very old school in their thinking about growth rates, water, humidity and feeding. My experience with DTs, sulcatas and leopards over the last few years has given me reason to think that some of this old school thinking might need to be "re-thought".


----------



## thatrebecca (Jun 2, 2013)

Thanks for the input, Tom. I guess we'll stick to the routine, since they seem to be doing well. I was thinking of adding Mazuri to their diet but I don't know that they need it. Grass, weeds, greens, cactus pads and veggies with a little calcium 2 times a week and soaks 2 times a week seems to be getting it done.


----------



## ascott (Jun 2, 2013)

> Most people who keep DTs are very old school in their thinking about growth rates,



I happen to be one of the oldies on this part of the statement 



> water



Absolutely an essential source needs to be available at all times, for drinking, soaking and just to get luscious in 



> humidity



A multitude of micro climates should be ones goal in maintaing a tortoise in a forced captive situation---regardless of species---but with this species constant high levels of "wet" and "high humid" enclosures would not be what I would strive for...



> feeding



As much native foods as possible is my goal---and I also add in high water content foods, especially during the hottest months of tortoise season.....I will give an entire head of the selected romaine, red or green leaf lettuce to each adult men here and they will consume the entire thing as though they have not eaten for years....they also will graze on the native goodies....

So, I have always though that there are some tried and true old fashion ways and some new, not so old fashion ways that should compliment one another....


----------



## Tom (Jun 2, 2013)

Good post Angela. I agree with every point, except maybe the first. I'm pretty sure you are pretty hip to the new information, as well as the old. 




thatrebecca said:


> Thanks for the input, Tom. I guess we'll stick to the routine, since they seem to be doing well. I was thinking of adding Mazuri to their diet but I don't know that they need it. Grass, weeds, greens, cactus pads and veggies with a little calcium 2 times a week and soaks 2 times a week seems to be getting it done.



I don't think any tortoise "needs" Mazuri. Most DT keepers don't use it, in my experience. I use it almost like a vitamin supplement. I feed it to my tortoises once or twice a week to make sure their aren't any deficiencies in their diets. If your tortoises are thriving and growing well on grasses and weeds, I see no reason to introduce it. Mazuri does cause accelerated growth. The more you feed it the faster they grow. For a tortoise housed in dry conditions, like a typical SoCal backyard, this could contribute to pyramiding.


----------



## thatrebecca (Jun 3, 2013)

Got it. Many thanks to you both. It's so great to have a variety of experienced keepers on this forum to consult with.


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Jun 3, 2013)

thatrebecca said:


> Got it. Many thanks to you both. It's so great to have a variety of experienced keepers on this forum to consult with.



Amen to that. Aha. I swoon over the experienced keepers on this forum and their kindness in sharing their gotta-lotta-time-doing-this knowledge. 

Thanks so much. : )

And someday, some.day, may I be lucky enough to have a CDT of my very own! Love the gopherus!


----------



## ellen (Jun 6, 2013)

You know I came on to ask this exact same question. My Arizona Desert Tortoises are 1.75oz and 2.2oz right now. They're about 8 months old now. 

They're extremely active, their eyes are bright, nostrils clear, they're bathed daily and go out in the sun for a bit in the mornings since it's too hot to leave them outside in my opinion (it's expected to get up to 106 later this week), calcium supplements once a week, they get a nice varied diet of nopal cactus pads, evening primrose, dyssodia, curly mesquite grass, globemallow leaves (something ate the buds before they flowered and no more grew in time), and sometimes they'll nibble their desert lavender. I also sometimes give them produce greens like turnip, or maybe some grated carrot or squash as a treat. 

. . . I'm really not the best with humidity other than soaking them in warm water. I don't even know where I'd start to be quite honest. They do have slight pyramiding but since I switched them to this more varied diet in March and all new growth has been flat... 

I feel like I've done something wrong. They weighed 1.6oz and 1.4oz in March. :/ In a three month span that's a .6oz growth for the "big" one, Morgan, and a .35oz growth for the "runt", Merlin. If Gomez and Morticia have grown over an ounce each in two months time, it sounds like mine are a bit stunted?


----------



## thatrebecca (Aug 17, 2013)

Gomez and Morticia just had their first weigh-in since June. Gomez has gone from 17.5 oz to 19 oz, Morticia from 13 oz to 13.5 oz. 

Both of their growth rates have slowed since that first month we brought them home. I do wonder if some of that early weight gain was partly the effect of increased hydration, since they came from a no water bowl, no soaking house. Or do DTs grow faster in the spring? Either way they both seem to have hearty appetites still. What do folks think? Are we doing OK? Should I be concerned that Morticia (the 3-year-old) is growing more slowly than Gomez (the 5-year-old) or is that a reflection of their different ages?

Finally, I noticed no one ever answered Ellen about her two little DTs. Seems to me they're doing fine, and that their growth is obviously smaller because they're smaller to begin with. But I'm still a relative noob here.


----------



## ascott (Aug 18, 2013)

> They're extremely active, their eyes are bright, nostrils clear, they're bathed daily and go out in the sun



This is, to me, the most important indicator of health...rapid growth in this species is not desirable...slow and steady--are desirable...



> I'm really not the best with humidity other than soaking them in warm water.



To me, this species really thrives if offered/allowed an earthen burrow for use during the good weather months when kept outdoors...this can be somewhat replicated indoors by the offer of a warm humid hide within the enclosure...this offers the tort the option to enter when they need to juicy up some as well as exit when they need to dry out some....of which both are important micro climates for the species....also, the warm water soaks are a fantastic thing to assure they remain hydrated....you can also spritz the food you offer as this will bring hydration in when they consume the food... 



> I feel like I've done something wrong. They weighed 1.6oz and 1.4oz in March. :/ In a three month span that's a .6oz growth for the "big" one, Morgan, and a .35oz growth for the "runt", Merlin



I will disagree with you, I don't see that anything is wrong  Get them soaked, get them natural sun time in a completely secure area...let them get lots of exercise and a good variety of food....they will do aok, sometimes we worry ourselves way to much and in doing so we continually change our routines too much which then does not allow the torts to get a secure routine...change and stress will be the biggest factors in a tort either thriving or failing...so if you are hitting all of the main needs of your species, then fall into routine and watch them thrive...

They truly are an awesome tenacious rough tough and yet gentle species..enjoy the opportunity to host these beauties...




> Both of their growth rates have slowed since that first month we brought them home. I do wonder if some of that early weight gain was partly the effect of increased hydration, since they came from a no water bowl, no soaking house. Or do DTs grow faster in the spring? Either way they both seem to have_ hearty appetites_ still. What do folks think? Are we doing OK? Should I be concerned that Morticia (the 3-year-old) is growing more slowly than Gomez (the 5-year-old) or is that a reflection of their different ages?



I think their growth settling down is normal...they have a good source of food and hydration now and likely realize it seems to be coming at a routine rate...so that is a good thing right.

I believe that the torts would have growth rate moreover in the months that they are active and actively consuming food and increased water intake....

Hearty appetites are such a good indicator of a healthy tort, of course it is not a tell all, but it alone tells us that their surroundings are going well, surroundings play such a huge roll in the motivation of a tort to eat, exercise, bask, sleep and all of these things help to ensure a healthy tort...


----------



## thatrebecca (Aug 18, 2013)

ascott said:


> > They're extremely active, their eyes are bright, nostrils clear, they're bathed daily and go out in the sun
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Thanks, Angela! As usual, you're full of helpful information!


----------



## ellen (Aug 18, 2013)

Thank you so much for the information! Sadly most of their food has since been destroyed by dogs, but I finally set up a secure sunning enclosure in the pot that was decimated worse. I use slatted lawn chair for shade, I put out a bowl of water for them, and I scatter globemallow, mesquite, and whatever store greens I have at that time for them. I also found nopal pads at the store so I give them chunks of that in their food dish. I never thought of spritzing their "natural" food, but when I rinse the greens I leave them dripping wet. I'll have to give that a try! 

Today I left them out there for two hours while I cleaned their indoor enclosure. They hated it. They were amused at first, but then they ate most of the food, plopped into their water dish, drank, got the water muddy, waddled around for a while, and I caught Morgan standing on Merlin's back trying to escape (the walls were still too high! Poor baby!) when I was finally ready to bring them back in and soak them. 

I'm really going to need to think hard about how to make their hide humid. I tried replacing their log with a tupper ware with a moist towel over it (I think that was a suggestion from another thread here?) and they stopped using it so I changed it back. They really love that darn log. It's going to be sad when they can't fit under it anymore...


----------



## ascott (Aug 18, 2013)

Perhaps just be sure that their log is kinda near their heat source and then wet the substrate then layer a bit of dry substrate and then their log then cover the entire log with soil and pack it down so they will have a little hill to rest on as well as this will help to offer a warm humid hide...you can then place another log hide on the cool dry side of your enclosure...this way they can opt for what they need?

And the outside time is critical...so even if they seem to complain a bit ....they will totally benefit...


----------



## ellen (Aug 20, 2013)

I did another weigh in today and Morgan's at a whopping 3.5oz and Merlin's 2.5oz. Everyone's starting to guess that Merlin's a girl while Morgan is a boy. I'm guessing worms, but I haven't seen anything anything in their poop to suggest it. I'll be taking them to the vet ASAP.


Huh I'm not quite as worried anymore. Still a bit worried that Merlin is slightly stunted compared to Morgan, but I found a study saying " They grew during the two-year study, having a 30% increase in body mass each year" and " During its first two years of life, a typical young tortoise used a total of about 175 g (dry matter) of food, equivalent to about 350 g fresh vegetation (3/4 of a pound) while growing from 34 to 55 g body mass."

So, unless my math is wrong, they've each gained more than 30% body mass in the last five months... They might be fat.... LOL

Young Desert Tortoise Survival: Energy, Water, and Food Requirements in the Field


----------



## thatrebecca (Aug 20, 2013)

ellen said:


> I did another weigh in today and Morgan's at a whopping 3.5oz and Merlin's 2.5oz. Everyone's starting to guess that Merlin's a girl while Morgan is a boy. I'm guessing worms, but I haven't seen anything anything in their poop to suggest it. I'll be taking them to the vet ASAP.



I'm confused, Ellen. Why do you think they have worms? They seem to be growing at a healthy rate to me.


Oh, we were just posting at the same time. See, your little guys are doing well!


----------



## ellen (Aug 20, 2013)

I thought Merlin might, but I think Merlin's just growing at its own pace. When I found that study it settled my worries once and for all.


----------



## ascott (Aug 20, 2013)

Ellen, if you suspect parasites, you can simply take a fresh sample of poo to the vet versus totally stressing out the tort by taking it to the vet...the vet needs the poo and not the tort 

Again, their growth rate is fine...no need to worry...this is a species that does not, nor should it, grow rapidly...


----------



## ellen (Aug 20, 2013)

I was so embarrassed last time! I managed to get their poo there just fine-- but when I got there I'd forgotten all my money! So I had to take the hour long bus ride back home and just never went back. I realize they're fine now. I'm just overly worried because this is all still way too new. Haha I'll leave them alone now, poor babies. They'll prefer it much better when I stop babying them. They're looking more and more like adults every day. It's about time I start treating them like the precocious juveniles they truly are.

Next stop on the worry bus: brumation. Lol!


----------



## ascott (Aug 20, 2013)

> Next stop on the worry bus: brumation. Lol!



They will be fine, it may be you that will need the additional support during their rest, lol


----------



## thatrebecca (Aug 20, 2013)

ascott said:


> > Next stop on the worry bus: brumation. Lol!
> 
> 
> 
> They will be fine, it may be you that will need the additional support during their rest, lol



This will be my first brumation season, too, Ellen. We can worry together. And when we can't take it any more we'll bug Angela for reassurance.


----------



## ascott (Aug 20, 2013)

> This will be my first brumation season, too, Ellen. We can worry together. And when we can't take it any more we'll bug Angela for reassurance.



LOL, you are funny 

Rebecca, I was looking back on your threads and see that you have had them since April of this year....is that correct? If yes, then you will really want to keep them up for this winter (just what I would do because you have had them for less than a year)....and keep getting to know them--and continue to prep them for next years winter sleep, this way you can be assured they are healthy and ready and plump and hydrated ....you know what I mean?


----------



## thatrebecca (Aug 20, 2013)

ascott said:


> > This will be my first brumation season, too, Ellen. We can worry together. And when we can't take it any more we'll bug Angela for reassurance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, they've only been with us since April. For just this reason I was planning to over-winter, but got frustrated by our options. The shed we planned to use for the cool weather isn't insulated, and when I investigated the cost of getting them set up properly in there it was pretty intimidating. The other option is for them to stay in our laundry room, which is where they spend cool nights now. But I'm not sure that's quite right either. Honestly, I'm scratching my head over this one, but leaning toward brumation, which is what they did at their prior home.


----------



## ascott (Aug 20, 2013)

Is there no way to set up a 50 gallon rubbermaid tub (or two hooked together) and set up lights and such so you can keep them indoors for the winter?


----------



## thatrebecca (Aug 20, 2013)

ascott said:


> Is there no way to set up a 50 gallon rubbermaid tub (or two hooked together) and set up lights and such so you can keep them indoors for the winter?



That's what I was planning to do in the shed, but it seemed like it would take more than just a couple lights to keep them warm enough in there without the insulation. I'm still debating bringing them into the kitchen/laundry area, which is where they are right now in their Rubbermaids. It's just such a small and busy area of the house. I dunno, maybe they'd get used to the commotion. Hubby is voting for brumation. I'm vacillating.


----------



## ascott (Aug 21, 2013)

Out in and uninsulated shed it would be difficult to regulate temps...but indoors it would be much easier....and yes, you could brumate, but I would hesitate in suggesting this, you see---a tort should be started out from the moment they wake up from brumation on eating, soaking, sunning, exercising--all in mind for their next brumation and there is no way to know what he has had prior to april..and you have only known him a short time....

Well, whichever way you all decide to go, I do wish the best


----------



## thatrebecca (Aug 22, 2013)

ascott said:


> Out in and uninsulated shed it would be difficult to regulate temps...but indoors it would be much easier....and yes, you could brumate, but I would hesitate in suggesting this, you see---a tort should be started out from the moment they wake up from brumation on eating, soaking, sunning, exercising--all in mind for their next brumation and there is no way to know what he has had prior to april..and you have only known him a short time....
> 
> Well, whichever way you all decide to go, I do wish the best



Thanks, Angela. What I know from their previous keeper is that Gomez and Morticia brumated last year in his laundry room. We have had them since about a month after they woke up, and they have been living mostly outside, with a diet of grasses, weeds and greens, and soaks 2-3 times per week. They've been quite active, with near daily excursions around the 5000-sq foot yard, and lots of room to climb in their outdoor enclosure. My thinking is, if they brumated successfully under their prior living conditions, which were less healthy in terms of diet, hydration, exercise, etc., they should be OK. Now, mind you, I would love any excuse to keep the little cuties awake all winter so I can enjoy them, so if I can figure out a way to build them a nicer indoor enclosure than their current one -- which is a couple Rubbermaids with orchid bark on top of the washer and dryer that we use for cool/rainy nights -- then I will gladly over-winter them. Just not sure how to accomplish it in our small house.


----------



## ascott (Aug 22, 2013)

Well, sounds like they have been doing well then......I bet they will be aok as well, there is no exact science, wish there were...


----------

