# Jacques' mystery ailment



## Moozillion (May 6, 2019)

This is a condensed version (believe it or not!!! ) of Jacques' most recent health problems. 
Jacques, as many of you may know, is my 4 yr old, female eastern mud turtle. Prior to Dec 8 of 2017, Jacques was an active, curious very healthy turtle who was responsive to people approaching her and quick to beg!!! 
On Dec 8, 2017, I found her under her basking platform, appearing to have gotten trapped in the plant roots and drowned. She was revived, but was very weak and began a lengthy medical journey, multiple hospitalizations at the exotic vet for aspiration pneumonia from the drowning, etc. 
I will spare you all the details of her problems and treatments, except where it appears to be relevant to the current issue.
She was much less acitive, hiding a lot, and had not been eating very well for several months, but was eating a bite or 2 about twice a week. 
On 2/16/2019 I found her in a clear area of her tank, in 5 inches of water, on her back with legs and head extended, appearing to be dead. But as soon as I picked her up, she immediately looked at me and moved easily. Her body was odd puffy: as if she was suddenly 2 sizes too big for her shell and her flesh was protruding wherever it could. 
A frantic trip to the exotic vet revealed nothing other than her body was swollen. I had to leave her with them for a couple of days for her puffiness to go down so they could draw some blood. Her blood count was entirely normal (so no return of infection) and the swelling went down. They had no idea what happened with her, but said if it happened again for me to take her to the veterinary school to be seen by the reptile specialists there, and gave me the number to the vet school.
Although I never found her on her back again, the puffiness would come and go, never entirely going away. She remained less active and less responsive, and ate less and less. So I took her to LSU (Louisiana State University) Veterinary School on 3/19 to the reptile specialists. We spent 5 hours there, and she was seen by 2 of the reptile specialist docs, and a vet student. They drew blood and did an ultrasound of her front half (they tried to do an ultrasound of the organs in her back half, but she's too small for their ultrasound probe to fit in the gap by her back legs).

Discussion: None of them have ever seen anything like this before. They have been able to rule out a lot of possibilities.
It's NOT a bacterial infection: blood counts remain entirely normal, she does not appear to have any obvious infections. And over the past 1 and 1/2 years since the drowning, she has had 4 one-week long treatments with antibiotics at my exotics vet, anyway.
It's NOT a parasite infection: she's got no indication of it and my exotics vet treated her for parasites in the past several months "just in case."
It's NOT kidney failure: their blood tests showed entirely normal kidney function.
It's NOT liver failure: their blood tests showed entirely normal liver function.
It's NOT any vitamin deficiency. 
Because of the significant personality change after the drowning, they feel confident that she has some degree of brain damage, but there's no reason to think that's causing the current problem. 

The ultrasound DID show a "possible mass" up high between her lungs and her carapace. It could be a tumor, it could be thyroid (???) or it could just be scarred lung tissue from her pneumonia that has sort of stuck together and has nothing whatsoever to do with her current problems. 

They offered me 3 approaches: Aggressive, Moderate and Conservative. 
Aggressive Treatment: A CT scan of her body. It would be able to give more detail as to whether there are any masses developing in her body or not. It would NOT be able to tell us what those masses ARE: only surgery (ie drilling through her shell, etc) would tell us that. Even if there is a mass, it may be unrelated to her problem. The CT scan alone is $600, and that does not include the docs assessment of it. 

Moderate Treatment: Give her "empiric treatment" for a fungal infection. "Empiric treatment" means "an educated guess in the absence of complete information." They see no signs of her having a fungal infection- it's just the only thing she hasn't been treated for. The fungal treatment can be one of 2 ways: oral meds or injected into a muscle. EVERY DAY FOR 30 DAYS. Trying to force oral meds on an animal that won't eat and actively resists. Or injections into a small, wiggly animal who is abnormally puffy so that it's hard to even TELL if you're into muscle tissue or just puffy fleshy tissue. AND all this with absolutely ZERO guarantee that this is even the problem at hand. 

Conservative Treatment: Take her back home, offer food every couple of days but don't make a big deal of it. Weigh her weekly and bring her back if she loses 18-20 grams in 1 week or 35-40 grams in 2 weeks.

I am going with the Conservative Treatment. The last time she ate anything at all (a single bite of salmon) was 3/16; she has continued to refuse food as recently as yesterday. Her weight at the Vet School was 187.4 gm, and her weight today was 182 gm. So that's only a 5 gm loss in almost 2 whole MONTHS.

About 2 months ago I moved her into her new penthouse suite: 40 gallon breeder tank with her old cave and all the old plastic plants that she is used to. She has 2 basking platform options: a big piece of floating cork and a ramp that she's seen and used before. She does NOT appear to be in pain because she doesn't hide at all (the docs at the Vet School agreed with that assumption). She almost never moves at all: she floats, and is content to drift where the current in her tank takes her. She will occasionally push off from something and turn herself around, and seems to prefer being up front where she watches our comings and goings. Through all this, she is very bright and alert! She is quick to make eye contact and is clearly looking around. But doesn't want to move at all. Even this morning when i weighed her, she let me pick her up, weigh her and put her back in the water. She looked at me the whole time, but never budged. Back when she was healthier, I would have to corner her to pick her up, she would try to climb out of the bowl of her scale and always dived off to hide after I put her back in her tank. 

So there you have it. Jacques' Mystery Ailment that has the Veterinary School reptile specialists stumped.

But at least one good thing came out of all this. Her tank is in our dining room, and I just knew it was going to be too depressing to sit there everyday, trying to not notice and wonder what's going on with her. So that's what pushed me to get another turtle, and I got NELSON, my adorable baby razor backed musk turtle who is an absolute delight! Both tanks are in my dining room: Nelson's is to my right as i type this, and Jacques' is to my left. I see and talk to Jacques daily and I also get to see Nelson, too. 
Life is a funny old thing.
So here we are. 
Jacques sends her love to all. 


P.S. Since Jacques is "Miss September" in our 2019 TFO calendar, I bought 2 more calendars and sent them to the docs at the Vet School who worked with her. After all, how often do they get to treat an INTERNATIONAL Calendar Girl??!?!?  One of the docs was so happy that she phoned me to thank me in person.


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## LaLaP (May 6, 2019)

Wow that's quite an ordeal that you and Jacques have been through. For what it's worth, I would have chosen the same conservative approach and hope that she starts eating more. 
So glad you have Nelson to lighten your spirits. 
I'll be pulling for you guys. Keep us posted.


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## Moozillion (May 6, 2019)

Here are photos of Jacques in her Penthouse Suite!
She is the only occupant, though I'm considering adding a single Betta fish...
But at least she's no longer pestered by the Ghost Shrimp!!! 








LaLaP said:


> Wow that's quite an ordeal that you and Jacques have been through. For what it's worth, I would have chosen the same conservative approach and hope that she starts eating more.
> So glad you have Nelson to lighten your spirits.
> I'll be pulling for you guys. Keep us posted.


Thank you, LaLaP!


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## Yvonne G (May 6, 2019)

Well, my gosh, Bea. You certainly have gone above and beyond with little Jacques. When she was first found upside down and all swollen, I would have just thought she had absorbed too much water during that ordeal. The brain damage idea might have merit. Oh, if only they could communicate!


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## Moozillion (May 6, 2019)

Yvonne G said:


> Well, my gosh, Bea. You certainly have gone above and beyond with little Jacques. When she was first found upside down and all swollen, I would have just thought she had absorbed too much water during that ordeal. The brain damage idea might have merit. Oh, if only they could communicate!


Actually, Yvonne, I wondered if your idea might not be closest to the actual situation. Because of my work in the medical field, I know that humans with brain damage can stay the same, slowly get better or slowly get worse.
If Jacques had significant brain damage from the original drowning in 2017, and was slowly getting worse, she might be moving less and less because of that. And if she doesn't move at all, then her body swells up as a normal reaction. Even when she's really puffy, the more you provoke her- like 2 different vets handling her and examining her- the more active she gets and the more the swelling GOES DOWN! They had to sedate her slightly to draw her blood at the vet school and she BIT the veterinary resident! The Resident just laughed and said, "Good girl!"
One of my sisters is an MD, and she said that humans with swelling of their body usually have either kidney problems or heart problems. We know Jacques' kidneys are fine, but i don't think there's any way to check her heart.  And I'm not even sure I would want to pursue that avenue anyway.


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## JoesMum (May 6, 2019)

Oh, poor Jacques.

I am glad she still has enough fight to bite the vet... She’s probably fed up of blood being drawn and I don’t blame her.

Massive electronic hug to both of you


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## Moozillion (May 6, 2019)

JoesMum said:


> Oh, poor Jacques.
> 
> I am glad she still has enough fight to bite the vet... She’s probably fed up of blood being drawn and I don’t blame her.
> 
> ...


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## CarolM (May 6, 2019)

Moozillion said:


> This is a condensed version (believe it or not!!! ) of Jacques' most recent health problems.
> Jacques, as many of you may know, is my 4 yr old, female eastern mud turtle. Prior to Dec 8 of 2017, Jacques was an active, curious very healthy turtle who was responsive to people approaching her and quick to beg!!!
> On Dec 8, 2017, I found her under her basking platform, appearing to have gotten trapped in the plant roots and drowned. She was revived, but was very weak and began a lengthy medical journey, multiple hospitalizations at the exotic vet for aspiration pneumonia from the drowning, etc.
> I will spare you all the details of her problems and treatments, except where it appears to be relevant to the current issue.
> ...


Poor Jacques. I really hope that the new plan of action works.


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## Moozillion (May 6, 2019)

CarolM said:


> Poor Jacques. I really hope that the new plan of action works.



Thanks, Carol! [emoji2][emoji173]️


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## Pastel Tortie (May 8, 2019)

Moozillion said:


> This is a condensed version (believe it or not!!! ) of Jacques' most recent health problems.
> Jacques, as many of you may know, is my 4 yr old, female eastern mud turtle. Prior to Dec 8 of 2017, Jacques was an active, curious very healthy turtle who was responsive to people approaching her and quick to beg!!!
> On Dec 8, 2017, I found her under her basking platform, appearing to have gotten trapped in the plant roots and drowned. She was revived, but was very weak and began a lengthy medical journey, multiple hospitalizations at the exotic vet for aspiration pneumonia from the drowning, etc.
> I will spare you all the details of her problems and treatments, except where it appears to be relevant to the current issue.
> ...


Bea, thanks for the detailed update and discussion. I hope Jacques gets to feeling better and back to her old spunky personality. 

I am still mulling over everything you've mentioned here, so more may occur to me later.

I am tentatively assuming that the veterinary school at LSU is in contact with other vet schools and specialists. I know my feline vet (different one from my reptile vet) confers with others online for additional thoughts and feedback... when one of my cats has a condition or situation that stumps her. 

I read through everything they managed to rule out so far, and that about the only thing Jacques hasn't been treated for so far is fungal...but... What about viral?


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## mark1 (May 8, 2019)

have they ever given her vitamins , ade , b complex ? she's eaten so poorly for so long ......…. an injection of B complex may kick start her appetite ...…….. the evidence might be anecdotal , but I've seen it work many times on turtles that wouldn't eat , some hadn't eaten for 6-8 months , they ate within days of getting it , it was a heck of a coincidence , 4-5 times I can remember ……..


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## Moozillion (May 8, 2019)

Pastel Tortie said:


> Bea, thanks for the detailed update and discussion. I hope Jacques gets to feeling better and back to her old spunky personality.
> 
> I am still mulling over everything you've mentioned here, so more may occur to me later.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Pastel Tortie- It looks like I accidentally left that out: she has no symptoms of any known viral infection.

When I made Jacques' appointment to go to the vet school, I decided that they would be my last stop: I would accept what they said and what they recommended. 
These people aren't just regular veterinarians and they're not even exotic animal veterinarians: these are the faculty at the state veterinary school. They TEACH the exotics vets. They do the reptile research. They write the books and papers. They are in touch with international reptile specialists all the time. I don't see how I could do better than that. 

Since I work in a medical field myself, I know all too well that there are sometimes cases that you never figure out; that's just how life goes.
I don't have the physical, financial or emotional energy to pursue this to the ends of the earth: the buck has to stop somewhere, and for me the buck stops with the veterinary school. Both my exotics vet and the vet school told me I've gone above and beyond what most people would have done for Jacques. I can find comfort in that. 

I haven't totally given up hope, but I'm not expecting miracles.
I plan to follow the current plan and keep her as comfortable and happy as possible.
If she needs to go back to the vet school again, it will be her last trip. Because she is a patient with them, although I would have to pay for euthanasia, they would do the necropsy for free, so that they can learn from her illness and maybe help other turtles with what they learn. 

I'm a little sad, but not terribly so- she's been through so much more than I've even shared here. She'll probably go on for a good while yet.
Although she can no longer pull her limbs in the way she used to because of the puffiness, she seems comfortable and content for now, so that's good enough for me. 

I really appreciate your love and concern.


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## Moozillion (May 8, 2019)

mark1 said:


> have they ever given her vitamins , ade , b complex ? she's eaten so poorly for so long ......…. an injection of B complex may kick start her appetite ...…….. the evidence might be anecdotal , but I've seen it work many times on turtles that wouldn't eat , some hadn't eaten for 6-8 months , they ate within days of getting it , it was a heck of a coincidence , 4-5 times I can remember ……..



I appreciate your concern and your suggestions, mark1, I truly do. But her appetite is not the big problem. It's the swelling of her body that's the problem. When they did the ultrasound, in addition to the thing between her lung and carapace, they saw lots of extra fluid inside all her body spaces: the swelling is clearly her entire body, inside and out. THAT is the problem. With all that fluid pressing on all her organs and pushing her flesh out the openings in her shell, I'm not at all sure she would even be ABLE to eat or digest her food: there's not much room in there any more. 
I took the photo below just a few days ago, when her swelling was really LOW. You'll notice that she still can't pull her elbow inside her shell because there's still some swelling inside, so the best she can do it just hold it close to her side.


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## dmmj (May 8, 2019)

I doubt there are very many examples of brain damage in turtles or tortoises. But I imagine that would be the result little reaction to stimuli and lethargy. (Not an expert). As for the bloating that is usually result of kidney or heart problems. With no kidney problems detected, the heart is what I would be looking at. I'm surprised they did not offer a suggestion of a feeding tube. It seems like you wait to see if he can recover and then judge his quality of life


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## KarenSoCal (May 9, 2019)

I'm so glad you have given us this detailed update! I've been wondering about Jacques lately.

I am sad about the lack of improvement, but I agree totally with this conservative approach. You have done everything you can for her...now she will either get better or not. 

Be thankful that she is not in pain, and surely recognizes and knows you. I believe she feels safe and comfortable...it's her body that won't cooperate.

I wonder if raising her water temp a few degrees might help her?

Treasure the time you have with her, and remind her that she has been a joy to many of us.

Love and hugs to you, Bea.
[emoji847][emoji847][emoji847][emoji178][emoji174][emoji175]


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## Blackdog1714 (May 9, 2019)

I just know that in humans with TBI’s vitamin D is a biggie. My doc said I almost can’t get too much. I wish you the best since you are. Very few pet owners would go to the lengths you already have!!!


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## mark1 (May 9, 2019)

you very well may be past that point ...…. the reason I mention it , it is a cheap and real primary or secondary possibility in many cases ...….it has appeared to me long term nutritional deficiencies can be the primary cause behind symptoms attributed to many different secondary causes ……. you certainly went way above and beyond …….. I too would disregard the mass in his chest as there is nothing to be done about that if it's the problem ….. long term deficiencies can cause breakdowns in just about every body system ……..personally I , and for the most part my vet , tend to guess what's wrong with my animals when their ill , the choices being bacterial infection ,nutritional deficiency or parasite infection , most anything else I think is secondary and or logically untreatable , at least from my perspective.... those come down to where you are with Jacques , they either persist and get better or not …their environment can be a factor in some cases , but in my case , and from what I've seen yours , that is pretty much a non-factor ….. lots of folks used to treat their newly acquired animals for these problems as a precaution , regardless of their apparent health ...…..

*Vitamins That Can Help With Swelling in the Legs *

https://www.livestrong.com/article/532338-vitamins-that-can-help-with-swelling-in-the-legs/

"Lack of vitamin B-1, for instance, can cause fluid increases around the heart, leading to the heart's inability to pump correctly and causing leg swelling"


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## Pastel Tortie (May 9, 2019)

Bold and Pinstripe send all their best, most positive thoughts to Jacques. Bold said that Jacques is still her(?) idol and inspiration. I think it was Pinstripe who said that Jacques truly is one of "The Greats" and always will be, no matter what. And I'm rather fond of Jacques, myself!


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## Moozillion (May 9, 2019)

Gosh, thank you SO MUCH, KarenSoCal, Blackdog1714, mark1 and Pastel Tortie!!!
[emoji2][emoji173]️[emoji173]️[emoji173]️[emoji173]️


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## CarolM (May 10, 2019)

Moozillion said:


> Thanks, Pastel Tortie- It looks like I accidentally left that out: she has no symptoms of any known viral infection.
> 
> When I made Jacques' appointment to go to the vet school, I decided that they would be my last stop: I would accept what they said and what they recommended.
> These people aren't just regular veterinarians and they're not even exotic animal veterinarians: these are the faculty at the state veterinary school. They TEACH the exotics vets. They do the reptile research. They write the books and papers. They are in touch with international reptile specialists all the time. I don't see how I could do better than that.
> ...


Oh Bea. I am really so very sorry. I do hope that a miracle occurs and all the love and care you have been giving her will miraculously heal her.


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## Moozillion (May 10, 2019)

CarolM said:


> Oh Bea. I am really so very sorry. I do hope that a miracle occurs and all the love and care you have been giving her will miraculously heal her.


Thank you, Carol.


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## RosemaryDW (May 11, 2019)

Oh my goodness, I had no idea.

What a long ordeal for both of you. I hope she gets better or at least has a long time with you yet.


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## Moozillion (May 11, 2019)

RosemaryDW said:


> Oh my goodness, I had no idea.
> 
> What a long ordeal for both of you. I hope she gets better or at least has a long time with you yet.



Thank you, RosemaryDW [emoji2][emoji173]️


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## Lyn W (May 12, 2019)

Poor Jacques, she is such a fighter and you too have brilliant in also fighting for her, Bea.
Swelling also occurs when there is an allergic reaction (at least in humans so I assume other animals would be the same) but I don't suppose there's anyway of ruling out exactly what could be causing that and I don't suppose there's much in her environment that she could be allergic to.
I am so sorry they haven't been able to solve the mystery to help Jacques but still hoping for the best for her.


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## Moozillion (May 12, 2019)

Lyn W said:


> Poor Jacques, she is such a fighter and you too have brilliant in also fighting for her, Bea.
> Swelling also occurs when there is an allergic reaction (at least in humans so I assume other animals would be the same) but I don't suppose there's anyway of ruling out exactly what could be causing that and I don't suppose there's much in her environment that she could be allergic to.
> I am so sorry they haven't been able to solve the mystery to help Jacques but still hoping for the best for her.



Thank you, Lyn.[emoji2][emoji173]️


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## nandusnandus (May 14, 2019)

The generalized swelling may simply be anasarca. Anasarca is a re-distribution of fluid in the tissue as a result of various significant illnesses. It sounds as though the liver and kidney function were normal, at least when last checked. Failure of these organs is a common cause of anasarca. Additionally, I can only assume that a stool sample was evaluated for gastrointestinal parasites, another cause of protein wasting and significant illness with potential to cause anasarca. With these more-or-less ruled-out, I give real credence to Mark1's comments. I think he is barking up the right tree. I believe there is a relatively high likelihood that this can be reversed with supplemental feeding, using some high-quality, protein-rich food. It sounds as though this will be more easily said than done, though, with his decreased feeding response. Given his weakened state, you may not have much trouble passing a tube through his mouth, into his stomach and tube feeding him every other day for a couple of weeks (assuming he continues not to feed well on his own). Alternatively, if he is feisty-enough, simply stimulating a strike/bite response and getting him to clamp down on a lightly vitamin-enriched/dusted, high-protein food item like a night crawler, may do the trick. Once they have the item in their mouth, especially if deeper in the oropharynx (way in the back of the mouth), they will often complete the process and swallow on their own.

A single anecdote proves nothing. Nevertheless, I will note that I received an ornate box turtle last year which had the same generalized swelling, weakness, and inability to withdraw legs into the shell. (She had that same look of being too fat to fit into her shell.) She was neglected prior to being acquired by me. Now, the swelling is gone, vigor has returned and she competes strongly with her enclosure mates. She actually cleared-up enough that I let her hibernate this winter. She looks and acts like a champ, these days. So, not all is necessarily lost with Jaq.


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## vladimir (May 14, 2019)

@Moozillion thinking of you and Jacques


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## Moozillion (May 14, 2019)

nandusnandus said:


> The generalized swelling may simply be anasarca. Anasarca is a re-distribution of fluid in the tissue as a result of various significant illnesses. It sounds as though the liver and kidney function were normal, at least when last checked. Failure of these organs is a common cause of anasarca. Additionally, I can only assume that a stool sample was evaluated for gastrointestinal parasites, another cause of protein wasting and significant illness with potential to cause anasarca. With these more-or-less ruled-out, I give real credence to Mark1's comments. I think he is barking up the right tree. I believe there is a relatively high likelihood that this can be reversed with supplemental feeding, using some high-quality, protein-rich food. It sounds as though this will be more easily said than done, though, with his decreased feeding response. Given his weakened state, you may not have much trouble passing a tube through his mouth, into his stomach and tube feeding him every other day for a couple of weeks (assuming he continues not to feed well on his own). Alternatively, if he is feisty-enough, simply stimulating a strike/bite response and getting him to clamp down on a lightly vitamin-enriched/dusted, high-protein food item like a night crawler, may do the trick. Once they have the item in their mouth, especially if deeper in the oropharynx (way in the back of the mouth), they will often complete the process and swallow on their own.
> 
> A single anecdote proves nothing. Nevertheless, I will note that I received an ornate box turtle last year which had the same generalized swelling, weakness, and inability to withdraw legs into the shell. (She had that same look of being too fat to fit into her shell.) She was neglected prior to being acquired by me. Now, the swelling is gone, vigor has returned and she competes strongly with her enclosure mates. She actually cleared-up enough that I let her hibernate this winter. She looks and acts like a champ, these days. So, not all is necessarily lost with Jaq.


Thanks so much, nandusnandus!  What did you do for your ornate box turtle to get her over that?


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## Moozillion (May 14, 2019)

vladimir said:


> @Moozillion thinking of you and Jacques


Thanks so much, vladimir!


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## TammyJ (May 15, 2019)

Good going Bea, and all the best to Jacques for her recovery. She has a wonderful person as her caregiver and owner!


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## nandusnandus (May 18, 2019)

Moozillion said:


> Thanks so much, nandusnandus!  What did you do for your ornate box turtle to get her over that?


In different situations, I've done as I described in my post, whatever it takes to get the nutrients or meds into the gut. The ornate box turtle still had a weak feeding response, but enough to get the job done. For a desert tortoise that requires meds, I administer the meds as described using a red rubber tube that I use as an orogastric tube placed momentarily for each dosing. Placing and using an orogastric tube has its challenges. If I were you and the turtle will neither feed voluntarily or defensively strike when antagonized, which would give you the chance to place the intended food items in the path of the strike, I would manually extend the neck and open the beak to insert the items. Have you tried any of this, yet?


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## Moozillion (May 19, 2019)

nandusnandus said:


> In different situations, I've done as I described in my post, whatever it takes to get the nutrients or meds into the gut. The ornate box turtle still had a weak feeding response, but enough to get the job done. For a desert tortoise that requires meds, I administer the meds as described using a red rubber tube that I use as an orogastric tube placed momentarily for each dosing. Placing and using an orogastric tube has its challenges. If I were you and the turtle will neither feed voluntarily or defensively strike when antagonized, which would give you the chance to place the intended food items in the path of the strike, I would manually extend the neck and open the beak to insert the items. Have you tried any of this, yet?


I have not.
It is very difficult for me to manipulate small objects (and a 4" long mud turtle with an even smaller mouth is a small object) with confidence due to having a congenital hand tremor, arthritis in both hands and having had surgery on my dominant hand.
Hubby is not an option.
In order to get her fed, we would bring her to our exotic vet for tube feeding, which I have done in the past.
There are other issues as well, and will be bringing her to the vet this week. So I might leave her for boarding and tube feeding for a week.


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## KarenSoCal (May 19, 2019)

Moozillion said:


> I have not.
> It is very difficult for me to manipulate small objects (and a 4" long mud turtle with an even smaller mouth is a small object) with confidence due to having a congenital hand tremor, arthritis in both hands and having had surgery on my dominant hand.
> Hubby is not an option.
> In order to get her fed, we would bring her to our exotic vet for tube feeding, which I have done in the past.
> There are other issues as well, and will be bringing her to the vet this week. So I might leave her for boarding and tube feeding for a week.


Make sure to let us know how the vet visit goes! Praying for her! [emoji120]


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## nandusnandus (May 19, 2019)

Like much of what I say, there is definitely an "easier said than done" component. Having good eyesight, dexterity, and plenty of (non-vet) training gives me an advantage in this arena. Perhaps, a brief stint of feeding at the vet with mineral/vitamin supplementation will be enough to get him turned-around enough to resume spontaneous feeds and do the rest on his own. I think there are a couple of reasonable options. One is for them to insert an esophagogastric tube through the side of the neck and leave it in place, secured to the carapace. Depending upon your limitations, you might be able to use that at home, yourself. The other would be just placing the tube orally for a few seconds each time it's needed. Of course, that would require him to be at the vet for some length of time or multiple visits, assuming your vet is even comfortable with this.


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## TammyJ (May 20, 2019)

Watching and hoping! I know you will keep us up to date. Jacques has a mighty strong fan club here!


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## Moozillion (May 20, 2019)

nandusnandus said:


> Like much of what I say, there is definitely an "easier said than done" component. Having good eyesight, dexterity, and plenty of (non-vet) training gives me an advantage in this arena. Perhaps, a brief stint of feeding at the vet with mineral/vitamin supplementation will be enough to get him turned-around enough to resume spontaneous feeds and do the rest on his own. I think there are a couple of reasonable options. One is for them to insert an esophagogastric tube through the side of the neck and leave it in place, secured to the carapace. Depending upon your limitations, you might be able to use that at home, yourself. The other would be just placing the tube orally for a few seconds each time it's needed. Of course, that would require him to be at the vet for some length of time or multiple visits, assuming your vet is even comfortable with this.



Thanks for the ideas!
I have screenshot your post and will bring it with me. 
If my exotics vet isn't comfortable with this, I'm sure the vet school WILL be- and she's already an established patient with them.
Thanks again! [emoji2]


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## Moozillion (May 21, 2019)

We have an appointment with the reptile specialists at the vet school for Monday, May 27 in the afternoon. I was surprised that their specialty clinic is open on Memorial Day!


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## TammyJ (May 27, 2019)

Jacques' Memorial Day vet visit!!! Watching and hoping.


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## Moozillion (May 27, 2019)

My dear friends, I am deeply saddened to report that at the vet visit today, we finally decided to go forward with euthanasia for Jacques. 
They will do a necropsy and I will post anything useful here. 

I will miss my silly little diva.


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## Blackdog1714 (May 27, 2019)

[emoji24] so sorry for you


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## mark1 (May 27, 2019)

very sad to hear this , my condolences …….


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## Moozillion (May 27, 2019)

Blackdog1714 said:


> [emoji24] so sorry for you



Thank you, Blackdog1714 [emoji173]️


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## Toddrickfl1 (May 27, 2019)

So sorry to hear this. We will miss you Jacques


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## EllieMay (May 27, 2019)

Awww Bea... I’m so sorry!


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## dmmj (May 27, 2019)

Poor jaques. So sorry you put more effort than most would have


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## Moozillion (May 27, 2019)

Thank you so much, Toddrickfl1[emoji173]️, EllieMay[emoji173]️, and dmmj[emoji173]️.


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## Moozillion (May 27, 2019)

mark1 said:


> very sad to hear this , my condolences …….



Thank you, Mark1.[emoji173]️


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## Pastel Tortie (May 27, 2019)

Oh, Bea... I am so sorry. Jacques touched so many of us, who she never met. She will live on in our hearts and minds. She's still an inspiration to many of us... and she's still an idol for Bold and Pinstripe. Warmest thoughts, and fondest memories.


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## Moozillion (May 27, 2019)

Pastel Tortie said:


> Oh, Bea... I am so sorry. Jacques touched so many of us, who she never met. She will live on in our hearts and minds. She's still an inspiration to many of us... and she's still an idol for Bold and Pinstripe. Warmest thoughts, and fondest memories.



Thank you so much, Pastel Tortie.[emoji173]️


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## TammyJ (May 28, 2019)

Oh, this is very sad and I am so very sorry she did not make it.
You went all out and gave her the best of everything, and her saga so lovingly documented here by you will always be a touching and entertaining part of this site.
RIP and thanks, Jacques!!!


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## JoesMum (May 28, 2019)

Moozillion said:


> My dear friends, I am deeply saddened to report that at the vet visit today, we finally decided to go forward with euthanasia for Jacques.
> They will do a necropsy and I will post anything useful here.
> 
> I will miss my silly little diva.
> ...



Oh Bea! I am so sorry to read this [emoji22] 

Rest in Peace Jacques; you will be sorely missed. I am sure Joe will be ready to welcome you over the Rainbow Bridge. 

Massive electronic hugs from me to you, Bea xx


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## vladimir (May 28, 2019)

Oh @Moozillion I'm so very sorry to hear that. I know how special Jacques was to everyone here.

Thank you for giving her such wonderful care on this earth


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## Yvonne G (May 28, 2019)

Moozillion said:


> My dear friends, I am deeply saddened to report that at the vet visit today, we finally decided to go forward with euthanasia for Jacques.
> They will do a necropsy and I will post anything useful here.
> 
> I will miss my silly little diva.
> ...


Aw geez. I'm so very sorry to read this. Every time I see this thread come up in the "New Posts" I'm afraid to open it for this very reason. Looking at Jacques' pictures in your post above makes me re-realize just how cute and 'fun' this turtle was. I hope the necropsy will have some news for you. You really went above and beyond trying to make a good home for jacques and giving her good care.


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## Cheryl Hills (May 28, 2019)

Blackdog1714 said:


> [emoji24] so sorry for you


So sorry to hear this. My prayers are with you and Jacques. Lost one of my cats yesterday too.


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## TammyJ (May 28, 2019)

One thing we all have in common here, eh Cheryl Hills? Our love for our pets.


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## Cheryl Hills (May 28, 2019)

TammyJ said:


> One thing we all have in common here, eh Cheryl Hills? Our love for our pets.


Yep, all of them.


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## CarolM (May 28, 2019)

Moozillion said:


> My dear friends, I am deeply saddened to report that at the vet visit today, we finally decided to go forward with euthanasia for Jacques.
> They will do a necropsy and I will post anything useful here.
> 
> I will miss my silly little diva.
> ...


I am so sorry Bea. A big Electronic hug![emoji8]


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## CarolM (May 28, 2019)

Cheryl Hills said:


> So sorry to hear this. My prayers are with you and Jacques. Lost one of my cats yesterday too.


I am sorry for the loss of your cat Cheryl. A big hug as well.


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## Moozillion (May 28, 2019)

Thank you so much TammyJ , JoesMum, vladimir, Yvonne, Cheryl and CarolM.
Knowing how many people enjoyed Jacques is a comfort.


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## Moozillion (May 28, 2019)

Cheryl Hills said:


> So sorry to hear this. My prayers are with you and Jacques. Lost one of my cats yesterday too.


So sorry for the loss of your cat, Cheryl.


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## Moozillion (May 28, 2019)

TammyJ said:


> One thing we all have in common here, eh Cheryl Hills? Our love for our pets.


i think TFO is an especially loving bunch of people because we see value in animals that so many people overlook or don't regard as worthy of being a pet. 
One of my favorite quotes is from Nietzche, where he says, "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
We hear music that many people don't.
Thank you all for sharing in Jacques' life with me.


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## crimson_lotus (May 28, 2019)

So sorry for your loss! I don't post very often but definitely kept watch on Jaques condition.


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## Moozillion (May 28, 2019)

crimson_lotus said:


> So sorry for your loss! I don't post very often but definitely kept watch on Jaques condition.


Thank you, crimson_lotus.


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## KarenSoCal (May 30, 2019)

Oh, Bea, I've been off TFO for a week...

Your dear Jacques was inspirational, entertaining, and really funny. She brought so many smiles to me, and now she has brought tears.

What a legacy for a turtle! Literally hundreds, maybe thousands, have laughed with you watching her little dances, and cheering you both on when she wasn't feeling well.

You gave her the best in life, and now in death. 

She's happy and healthy now, swimming around looking for salmon chunks to drop by.

May you have peace, and a serene heart.


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## Lyn W (May 31, 2019)

Moozillion said:


> My dear friends, I am deeply saddened to report that at the vet visit today, we finally decided to go forward with euthanasia for Jacques.
> They will do a necropsy and I will post anything useful here.
> 
> I will miss my silly little diva.
> ...


I am so sorry to hear this Bea, Jacques was such a little character and I will miss reading about her antics. 
You did everything possible to try to save her and I hope you can take some comfort on the fact that she isn't suffering anymore and that she has also gone on to help vets help other turtles who may have this mysterious condition.
Thinking of you, take care.


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## Moozillion (May 31, 2019)

KarenSoCal said:


> Oh, Bea, I've been off TFO for a week...
> 
> Your dear Jacques was inspirational, entertaining, and really funny. She brought so many smiles to me, and now she has brought tears.
> 
> ...


THank you, KarenSoCal!


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## Moozillion (May 31, 2019)

Lyn W said:


> I am so sorry to hear this Bea, Jacques was such a little character and I will miss reading about her antics.
> You did everything possible to try to save her and I hope you can take some comfort on the fact that she isn't suffering anymore and that she has also gone on to help vets help other turtles who may have this mysterious condition.
> Thinking of you, take care.


Thank you so much, Lyn.


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## Kristoff (May 31, 2019)

So sorry to read this, Bea. But thank you for sharing. Jacques was such a character, our special diva, and we’ll all miss her. Thinking of you. [emoji173]️


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## Moozillion (May 31, 2019)

Kristoff said:


> So sorry to read this, Bea. But thank you for sharing. Jacques was such a character, our special diva, and we’ll all miss her. Thinking of you. [emoji173]️



Thank you, Kristoff.[emoji173]️


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## Moozillion (Jun 4, 2019)

Just a little follow up for Jacques' fans.
I thought I would have heard back by now on the necropsy results, so I phoned the vet school.
They are doing a VERY thorough examination of all her body tissues, and have sent some to the histology department for microscopic studies and cultures etc. Once ALL the results from all the tests are in, someone will phone me to discuss the results.
Thinking about it, since they are both a veterinary school , a research facility and a tertiary referral center for all the animal specialists in the state (including the zoos) it makes sense for them to get all the answers they possibly can.
I really do take some comfort in knowing that Jacques did not die in vain, and she WILL be able to help other turtles by providing information posthumously. 

Of course, I will post results here once I have received them.


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## Kalbrecht (Jun 4, 2019)

This story breaks my heart because a couple years ago I found one of my red sliders trapped under the waterfall filter. He was 10 years old. It broke me up inside. Its never easy to deal with such a tragedy. You have definitely gone above and beyond for Jacques. I'll be praying for you both. Nelson is a cutie, I'm glad you have your new baby to lift your spirits. [emoji7]


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## Moozillion (Jun 5, 2019)

Kalbrecht said:


> This story breaks my heart because a couple years ago I found one of my red sliders trapped under the waterfall filter. He was 10 years old. It broke me up inside. Its never easy to deal with such a tragedy. You have definitely gone above and beyond for Jacques. I'll be praying for you both. Nelson is a cutie, I'm glad you have your new baby to lift your spirits. [emoji7]



Thank you, kalbrect[emoji2][emoji173]️


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## Pearly (Jun 16, 2019)

Oh, Bea! I’m trying to get back in the groove with TFO and trying to scan through some threads of old friends to start catching up, and run across this thread!!! Omg! I had no idea you’ve been through such an ordeal with your little cutie! I am so so very sorry you had to go through that, on the other hand what and inspiration, and great education to this Forum you have been! Thank you for taking your time to share your experience. How gut wrenching this must have been for you! I am so sorry and sad for your loss! my deepest belated condolences, and warmest hugs[emoji173]️[emoji173]️[emoji173]️ can’t wait to see your Nelson. Glad you’ve decided to get him.


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## Moozillion (Jun 16, 2019)

Pearly said:


> Oh, Bea! I’m trying to get back in the groove with TFO and trying to scan through some threads of old friends to start catching up, and run across this thread!!! Omg! I had no idea you’ve been through such an ordeal with your little cutie! I am so so very sorry you had to go through that, on the other hand what and inspiration, and great education to this Forum you have been! Thank you for taking your time to share your experience. How gut wrenching this must have been for you! I am so sorry and sad for your loss! my deepest belated condolences, and warmest hugs[emoji173]️[emoji173]️[emoji173]️ can’t wait to see your Nelson. Glad you’ve decided to get him.


Thanks so much, Pearly.  (Glad to see you back!)


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## CarolM (Jun 17, 2019)

Moozillion said:


> Just a little follow up for Jacques' fans.
> I thought I would have heard back by now on the necropsy results, so I phoned the vet school.
> They are doing a VERY thorough examination of all her body tissues, and have sent some to the histology department for microscopic studies and cultures etc. Once ALL the results from all the tests are in, someone will phone me to discuss the results.
> Thinking about it, since they are both a veterinary school , a research facility and a tertiary referral center for all the animal specialists in the state (including the zoos) it makes sense for them to get all the answers they possibly can.
> ...


Hi Bea, 

Any further feedback yet?


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## Moozillion (Jun 17, 2019)

CarolM said:


> Hi Bea,
> 
> Any further feedback yet?


No, not yet. 
If they are culturing for fungus, then I know that can take a few weeks, dang it. 
I may call them this week anyhow, just to see.


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## CarolM (Jun 18, 2019)

Moozillion said:


> No, not yet.
> If they are culturing for fungus, then I know that can take a few weeks, dang it.
> I may call them this week anyhow, just to see.


Sjoe, they sure are doing a thorough job.!!


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## Moozillion (Jun 21, 2019)

OK.
This is tougher than I thought it would be.
The vet school called me with the results of Jacques' necropsy.

1) She still had pneumonia and "a lot of inflammation" in her lungs. They believe that the initial pneumonia from her drowning was never fully cured. It apparently got BETTER after each of her antibiotic treatments, but never entirely went away, then would just build up again off and on for the whole year and a half since her drowning.

2) They found "foreign material" in her lungs that she had inhaled in the drowning incident. They were not able to identify the material because her immune system attacked the material, reducing it over time to teeny yellowish blobs. It was most likely the usual crud that is in any aquarium, but is not meant to be inhaled: like teeny bits of decayed plants or poop or whatever.

3) Her immune cells had also sucked up the teeny foreign material bits and a bunch of these immune cells ended up in her liver, where they seemed stuck. So her system was trying its best to clear this crud out of her for a year and a half. The foreign material in her lungs may or may not have been the ORIGINAL cause of her pneumonia, but it certainly kept re-seeding the infection all over again after every round of antibiotics. This is because the antibiotics are in her blood and the foreign material was not, so the antibiotics couldn't reach it.

4) They also found that the nerves in her neck and front legs were degenerating and breaking down. They have NO explanation for this, and found that part of the picture very unusual. But it would have been getting harder and harder for her to move her head, mouth, throat and front legs as the nerves broke down.
She mentioned a few things that could contribute to nerve degeneration, but the only one I remembered was vitamin deficiency. It was tough, but I asked the doctor if Jacques' eating only salmon and the occasional earthworm could have caused the nerve deterioration. She said that when reptiles have vitamin deficiencies, they see MULTIPLE system defects, not just isolated nerve degeneration like Jacques had. And the earthworms would have given her a good variety of vitamins etc. I don't know if the doctor was just being kind or if this is true (self doubt rears its ugly head...)

5) There was no fungus growing out in any of their cultures, so it's a good thing we didn't go that route.
6) She said it's completely safe for me to use Jacques' tank for Nelson- there's nothing infectious for him to catch from her.

The doctor said the bottom line is that Jacques was probably not going to get better and we made the right decision in euthanizing her.

What I've learned:
1) Drowning is a very complex event that has catastrophic effects on multiple organ systems and can persist for a very long time.
2) Turtles can be very sick for a long time and even appear kind of OK when they're not.
3) Stuff happens and I need to forgive myself.


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## vladimir (Jun 21, 2019)

Oh @Moozillion *hugs* you did an amazing job with Jacques. I remember the day the drowning incident happened. Its a tough situation but you can't blame yourself... 

Thank you so much for sharing the details. Hopefully the information may provide insight that can help other sick or injured turtles and tortoises [emoji173]️


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## Moozillion (Jun 21, 2019)

vladimir said:


> Oh @Moozillion *hugs* you did an amazing job with Jacques. I remember the day the drowning incident happened. Its a tough situation but you can't blame yourself...
> 
> Thank you so much for sharing the details. Hopefully the information may provide insight that can help other sick or injured turtles and tortoises [emoji173]️


Thanks, vladimir.
I know I did everything I knew and learned a bunch and used several experts for help. 
I appreciate your support. 
It was a bit of a jolt, but I'm ok. 
Thanks so much!


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## TammyJ (Jun 21, 2019)

Moozillion. You are an amazing human being, in your capacity for total dedication and caring for "your family and other animals".
Please stay right here with us forever and especially, keep up those hilarious and so well written stories! You are just as good as James Lee Burke in your own way, strongly capturing and enchanting your readers.


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## Toddrickfl1 (Jun 21, 2019)

Moozillion said:


> OK.
> This is tougher than I thought it would be.
> The vet school called me with the results of Jacques' necropsy.
> 
> ...


Oh, me Murphy Marge and the rest of the slider crew send ya hugs from GA. Jacques had a wonderful Life with you and you did everything you could. RIP Jacques we will all miss you.


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## Moozillion (Jun 21, 2019)

TammyJ said:


> Moozillion. You are an amazing human being, in your capacity for total dedication and caring for "your family and other animals".
> Please stay right here with us forever and especially, keep up those hilarious and so well written stories! You are just as good as James Lee Burke in your own way, strongly capturing and enchanting your readers.



Thank you, Tammy![emoji173]️


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## Moozillion (Jun 21, 2019)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> Oh, me Murphy Marge and the rest of the slider crew send ya hugs from GA. Jacques had a wonderful Life with you and you did everything you could. RIP Jacques we will all miss you.



Thank you, Toddrick![emoji173]️


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## Moozillion (Jun 21, 2019)

Another thing I've learned (but forgot to include in the previous post about the necropsy) is that THE ABILITY TO COUGH IS A GOOD THING!!!!!
Since turtles have no diaphragm, they have no ability to cough up crud that they need to get out of their lungs and bronchial tubes. I tend to think of my own coughing as an annoyance, but now that I think about it, I'm sure glad I can cough and get rid of stuff so that it doesn't just sit in our lungs and keep making us sick!


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## KarenSoCal (Jun 21, 2019)

Bea, I can only imagine how painful it was to write all those findings out for us. Thank you for making the effort to do that.

But I hope that you have found some peace in the knowledge that nothing you did caused this, and there was nothing more you could have done to make her better.

Re' the inability to cough, I think that is one of the reasons we should make very clear to keepers who routinely allow their tort to roam the floor. No one can clean so thoroughly that there isn't one dust bunny or strands of hair somewhere.


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## Lyn W (Jun 21, 2019)

Moozillion said:


> OK.
> This is tougher than I thought it would be.
> The vet school called me with the results of Jacques' necropsy.
> 
> ...


 Poor little Jacques, it is amazing that there was so much going in inside her that no one could possibly know about.
You did a brilliant job fighting for her Bea, you have nothing to forgive yourself for. 
Now the vets and other turtle keepers have so much more understanding and knowledge to be able to help others in the future. 
Thank you Jacques and Bea.


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## CarolM (Jun 22, 2019)

Moozillion said:


> OK.
> This is tougher than I thought it would be.
> The vet school called me with the results of Jacques' necropsy.
> 
> ...


Oh Wow Bea. Yes I definitely agree on your last point. You did everything you could. It also shows just how tough they can be. Jacque' s fought the fight along with you for over a year. But it was obviously her time, at least you were able to help her to go peacefully. Thank you so much for sharing this with us. A big electronic hug from me.


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## JoesMum (Jun 22, 2019)

Moozillion said:


> OK.
> This is tougher than I thought it would be.
> The vet school called me with the results of Jacques' necropsy.
> 
> ...



Many, many electronic hugs Bea xxx

I know from personal experience with Joe that the self doubt will keep coming back... it’s tough to push it away. There’s absolutely nothing I did to cause Joe’s tumour, you’re no more to blame for Jacques and we both did the right thing in opting for putting our dear friends to sleep. 

Do forgive yourself. You did everything you could for Jacques and more x


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## Moozillion (Jun 22, 2019)

KarenSoCal said:


> Bea, I can only imagine how painful it was to write all those findings out for us. Thank you for making the effort to do that.
> 
> But I hope that you have found some peace in the knowledge that nothing you did caused this, and there was nothing more you could have done to make her better.
> 
> Re' the inability to cough, I think that is one of the reasons we should make very clear to keepers who routinely allow their tort to roam the floor. No one can clean so thoroughly that there isn't one dust bunny or strands of hair somewhere.


Thanks so much, KarenCoCal.
Yesterday, as I got the news and processed it, I had some doubts, which I think is only natural: any of us responsible for pets (or people for that matter!) tend to blame ourselves initially. but I'm feeling better today. I always DID wonder if the pneumonia had ever been fully cleared. But with the crud still in her lungs after almost 2 years, it was probably never going to clear out.


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## Moozillion (Jun 22, 2019)

Lyn W said:


> Poor little Jacques, it is amazing that there was so much going in inside her that no one could possibly know about.
> You did a brilliant job fighting for her Bea, you have nothing to forgive yourself for.
> Now the vets and other turtle keepers have so much more understanding and knowledge to be able to help others in the future.
> Thank you Jacques and Bea.


Thanks so much, Lyn.


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## Moozillion (Jun 22, 2019)

CarolM said:


> Oh Wow Bea. Yes I definitely agree on your last point. You did everything you could. It also shows just how tough they can be. Jacque' s fought the fight along with you for over a year. But it was obviously her time, at least you were able to help her to go peacefully. Thank you so much for sharing this with us. A big electronic hug from me.


Thanks so much, Carol.


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## Moozillion (Jun 22, 2019)

JoesMum said:


> Many, many electronic hugs Bea xxx
> 
> I know from personal experience with Joe that the self doubt will keep coming back... it’s tough to push it away. There’s absolutely nothing I did to cause Joe’s tumour, you’re no more to blame for Jacques and we both did the right thing in opting for putting our dear friends to sleep.
> 
> Do forgive yourself. You did everything you could for Jacques and more x


Thanks so much, Linda.


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## mark1 (Jun 22, 2019)

lots of good information ,thanks ……… keeping these guys long term is a difficult skill , and requires lots of effort , constantly trying to improve care…….. keeping them short term not so much , as you said , they can live for years slowly dying ……... the money , effort , time and grief you put into Jacques will benefit nelson i'm sure , as well as those who followed Jacques story ………..


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## PatC (Jun 22, 2019)

Lyn W said:


> Poor little Jacques, it is amazing that there was so much going in inside her that no one could possibly know about.
> You did a brilliant job fighting for her Bea, you have nothing to forgive yourself for.
> Now the vets and other turtle keepers have so much more understanding and knowledge to be able to help others in the future.
> Thank you Jacques and Bea.



Thanks so much for sharing with us.


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## Moozillion (Jun 22, 2019)

mark1 said:


> lots of good information ,thanks ……… keeping these guys long term is a difficult skill , and requires lots of effort , constantly trying to improve care…….. keeping them short term not so much , as you said , they can live for years slowly dying ……... the money , effort , time and grief you put into Jacques will benefit nelson i'm sure , as well as those who followed Jacques story ………..



Thank you, mark1.[emoji2][emoji173]️


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## Moozillion (Jun 22, 2019)

PatC said:


> Thanks so much for sharing with us.



Thank you, PatC.[emoji2][emoji173]️


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## Pearly (Jun 22, 2019)

Oh Bea! I just want to hold you right now! Wow! Please, please don’t beat yourself up with „could’ve, should’ves”. You did your very best at the time, gave your ALL. Your experience thread will be referenced to for years to come helping others who encounter similar problems. IfI was a pet turtle, I’d want my mom to be just like you, loving and dedicated to me and my wellbeing. You have lived through any pet owner’s ultimate nightmare and did ALL that you could to help your sick pet. Now you have all the wisdom of this whole experience. I know that with it, you will help MANY. On a side note, I hate to even think of your vet bill! I took my kitty to vet ER one night when she was sick and just few hrs in there cost me 750$! Yours with the university vets, and all the things that you tried... omg! must be thousands! How did you manage? Can we help?


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## Moozillion (Jun 22, 2019)

Pearly said:


> Oh Bea! I just want to hold you right now! Wow! Please, please don’t beat yourself up with „could’ve, should’ves”. You did your very best at the time, gave your ALL. Your experience thread will be referenced to for years to come helping others who encounter similar problems. IfI was a pet turtle, I’d want my mom to be just like you, loving and dedicated to me and my wellbeing. You have lived through any pet owner’s ultimate nightmare and did ALL that you could to help your sick pet. Now you have all the wisdom of this whole experience. I know that with it, you will help MANY. On a side note, I hate to even think of your vet bill! I took my kitty to vet ER one night when she was sick and just few hrs in there cost me 750$! Yours with the university vets, and all the things that you tried... omg! must be thousands! How did you manage? Can we help?


Thanks so much, Pearly.
Happily, the final costs were not as bad as we had feared they might be. 
The vet school NEEDS animals for their trainees to learn about, so their clinic fees are really not much more than the exotic vet that we took Jacques to in New Orleans. 
And the vet school necropsies are free when done on an animal that was an active patient of theirs at the time of their passing. So ALL the information from Jacques' necropsy was free of charge for us. 
We're doing fine in that regard. 
Thanks so much for thinking of us!


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## TammyJ (Jun 24, 2019)

Moozillion said:


> Another thing I've learned (but forgot to include in the previous post about the necropsy) is that THE ABILITY TO COUGH IS A GOOD THING!!!!!
> Since turtles have no diaphragm, they have no ability to cough up crud that they need to get out of their lungs and bronchial tubes. I tend to think of my own coughing as an annoyance, but now that I think about it, I'm sure glad I can cough and get rid of stuff so that it doesn't just sit in our lungs and keep making us sick!


That's right. And horses cannot vomit.


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## Moozillion (Jun 24, 2019)

TammyJ said:


> That's right. And horses cannot vomit.


Oh, WOW-  I never knew that about horses!


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