# Hibernation for Testudo



## Tom (Sep 30, 2011)

GB laid down some great info in this thread:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Russian-Tortoise-Breeding-Problems?page=2#axzz1ZOjo8sSQ

I wanted to ask him some more questions, but did not want to derail the OPs thread. This could have been done in a PM, but might as well let everyone benefit from his experience.

So GB, here are my questions: In the wild russians "hibernate" for up to 9 months a year and then its pretty hot and dry for the other 3, right? So if I'm keeping them in a relatively mild area like Southern CA, what is the best way to give them some somewhat natural conditions? You talked about how the start of hibernation needs to be cold enough to get them into a deep enough sleep. It could be highs in the 50's here in January or it could be highs in the 90's too. This time of year, we are still having days in the 90's and that will likely continue into November. Night temps will be dipping into the 40's in the next month or so. So what is someone with an outdoor russian group in SoCal to do? I can provide one of my handy-dandy underground boxes that will level out these extremes, but right now my 3' deep tegu box with no heat is staying 75-76 even with night temps in the 50's and day temps in the 80s-90s. I fear that its just to warm for a russian to properly hibernate and that the "warm" spells will mess with their metabolism. This is what happened to my Argentine tegus a few years ago. They dug in and hibernated in Sept. Then during a warm spell in January they came up and were walking around. When it got cold again they went back in there "cave" but did not dig in. They just laid on top as if it were summer. I lost two out of three when night temps went below freezing again. I'm afraid something similar would happen with any Testudo species here, but I know that lots of people just keep them outside year round with no heat. Would I be better off sticking them in a fridge in the fall, after a two week gut purging. And what temp is ideal if I did. 45? How long should they stay in? Usually by March we are pretty warm again, but still with cold nights.

Maybe I'm over thinking this, but is that really all that unusual for me? All are welcome to chime in on this. I'd love to hear from anyone in Southern CA that is keeping Testudo here outside. I'd love to hear how you do it and what you have learned from it along the way. And I'd love to hear about anyone with reproductive success at it. How do you house them in the winter?


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## GBtortoises (Sep 30, 2011)

Tom-I only have experience keeping tortoises in my climate which is less than ideal for most tortoise species. Many people assume that Russians must do great here in the Northeast because there is some mis-informed believe that they like it cold or at least temperate like the rest of the Northern Mediterran Testudo. But even though they get grouped with the NM Testudo, their climate is nothing like that of Hermann's, Marginateds or Ibera. Even those Testudo "tolerate" my climate at best. While it's true that the Russians can and do withstand a variety of environmental conditions that they are in here in the U.S. they don't "thrive" to the point of reproduction in most of those conditions. If you think about it, given the number of Russian tortoises now in captivity here in the U.S., if they were thriving wouldn't we by now have nearly as many captive born babies available as we do Sulcata? Yet, captive born Russians are more rare than any of the other Northern Testudo species.
Again, only from experience in my environment, I used to hibernate Russian tortoises indoors in refrigerators striving to maintain a temperature range at 40-42 degrees. Each animal was in an individual wooden box with a sliding top and shredded newspaper substrate. Once weekly I would open each box to inspect the tortoise within. The Ibera, Hermann's and Marginateds were all immobile, eyes closed. I'd open the boxes of each of the Russians and more often than not they'd be heads raised, staring up at me! It used to worry the heck out of me! I started hibernating them outdoors "naturally" and not see them from November to late early May. At that time all my other tortoises would wake up, begin eating and within the first couple of weeks of June, begin breeding. The Russians would come out and bask, eat and do nothing all summer. They were moochers! That was my process for years with no results. Then a few years ago I got a trio of Russians locally from someone who was keeping them in a dark empty box in the basement attempting to "hibernate" them. Because it was already mid winter I brought them into my tortoise room where some of mine were being overwintered. The lights were on 14 hours a day and the room was consistently warm because of all the lights. In the 80's during the daytime and warm 65-68 at night. Within about two weeks the male went crazy mounting the females and more importantly, the females were sitting still, raising their rear ends and letting it happen. I thought "holy crap, I'm a genius"! Then I remembered that I stumbled upon the whole process due to circumstances and really didn't figure it out on my own, the tortoises figured it out for me!
So to try to get to the point of my very long story-I have found sucess in breeding Russian tortoises by doing just the opposite of what one would expect. I actually hibernate mine outdoors, bring them indoors in the spring when they awake and keep them very hot, very intense light and near dry conditions. Usually, but still not always, they will mate and produce eggs within a month of doing so. Around mid to late July I put them back outdoors to spend the summer in their outdoor enclosure until hibernation again.
I have not heard of many people having good breeding sucess with Russians when kept in climates where the temperatures are mild throughout the winter or there is not an abrupt seasonal change after hibernation. I'm sure there are exceptions, but as a whole I don't breeding success has been obtained often in those conditions.

I, like Tom, would absolutely like to hear other peoples experiences with breeding Russians in great detail!

I think this a very good discussion thread that Tom started. I'm looking forward to hearing some methods and better ideas because the Russians have frustrated me for years!


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## Tom (Sep 30, 2011)

GBtortoises said:


> I thought "holy crap, I'm a genius"! Then I remembered that I stumbled upon the whole process due to circumstances and really didn't figure it out on my own, the tortoises figured it out for me!



Hey, this is how I've learned most of what I know too! This is how break throughs are made.

I know we have a lot of russian keepers here on the forum. Any breeding success?

So it sounds like if we hibernated a group of russians with you for the winter, and then ship them to me for the summer, it would be perfect. You've got consistent cold for the winter and I've got super hot and dry from about June through October.


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## jeffbens0n (Sep 30, 2011)

So where in the US do we think it the best place to keep Russians, assuming you are hibernating them and trying to breed?


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## chase thorn (Sep 30, 2011)

colorado is pretty close  im going to get a female someday and attempt to bred


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## dmmj (Sep 30, 2011)

I hibernate my russians every year. I am currently trying to set up a breeding group, I have a female but she is still to small, the loans of my male tortoise seems to be good reports of his breeding attempts.


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## Tom (Sep 30, 2011)

dmmj said:


> I hibernate my russians every year. I am currently trying to set up a breeding group, I have a female but she is still to small, the loans of my male tortoise seems to be good reports of his breeding attempts.



How do you hibernate them Captain? Indoors? Outdoors? What is their outdoor set up like? Have we seen pics?


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## GBtortoises (Oct 1, 2011)

Well, I haven't been to the Southwest, but I'm guessing with some artificial hibernation they would breed well outdoors there. I have been to Colorado several times at different times of the year visiting relatives and I don't see Russians being successfully bred there on a regular basis. Where in the U.S., if at all, is there bitter cold dry conditions for most of the year that turns to extreme heat almost instantly and only for 3-4 months before ending in a brief rainy fall then back to winter? None that I know of and if so I don't want to live there anyway! I did live in North Dakota for 2.5 years about 30 years ago and as I recall, it was pretty darn close to the climate description above! 

All the other Testudo species breed pretty well almost everywhere in the U.S.


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## Edna (Oct 1, 2011)

GBtortoises said:


> Where in the U.S., if at all, is there bitter cold dry conditions for most of the year that turns to extreme heat almost instantly and only for 3-4 months before ending in a brief rainy fall then back to winter? None that I know of and if so I don't want to live there anyway! I did live in North Dakota for 2.5 years about 30 years ago and as I recall, it was pretty darn close to the climate description above!
> 
> /quote]
> 
> That's what we had in NE Montana! It was very cold for a loonnngg winter, with winter weather always starting in October, and usually lasting until late April. By late May we'd start hitting 100 degrees and continue with that heat until mid-September. It was an aweful place to live with that 145 degree temperature range. You'd still have to fake the "rainy fall" part.


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## dmmj (Oct 1, 2011)

Well in case anyone is interested I hibernate mine inside my shed inside a large box. I put down about 6 inches of dirt and then lay down a large layer of leaves. Here in california it does stay warmish (is that a word?) So I keep an eye on them through the winter (HA HA ) I am interested to find out if a proper hibernation is essential to a good breeding season,if so I may artificially hibernate them in the coming years. I have never done this but I know a couple of people who have done so.


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## jeffbens0n (Oct 1, 2011)

Does anyone have any breeding success without hibernating?


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## Yvonne G (Oct 1, 2011)

My Russian tortoises (1.3) hibernate in shredded newspaper, in a cardboard box, in a dry, cool cinderblock box-like container. The temp is pretty steady at around 43 degrees. I put them in there after they have dug down into the dirt of their outdoor habitat (which is right around this time of year [note to self: find and box up the Russians]). They usually start to scrabble around, waking up towards the end of February. There is a lot of breeding, but no nest digging. The only time I EVER had a Russian egg was from a rescued female about a week after I received her (and never since).


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## dmmj (Oct 1, 2011)

emysemys said:


> My Russian tortoises (1.3) hibernate in shredded newspaper, in a cardboard box, in a dry, cool cinderblock box-like container. The temp is pretty steady at around 43 degrees. I put them in there after they have dug down into the dirt of their outdoor habitat (which is right around this time of year [note to self: find and box up the Russians]). They usually start to scrabble around, waking up towards the end of February. There is a lot of breeding, but no nest digging. The only time I EVER had a Russian egg was from a rescued female about a week after I received her (and never since).


Is it possible that the nests are never found?


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## Yvonne G (Oct 1, 2011)

Yes, quite possible. And we have a red ant problem. So if there were eggs laid, the ants would get to them before they hatched.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 1, 2011)

GBtortoises said:


> Well, I haven't been to the Southwest, but I'm guessing with some artificial hibernation they would breed well outdoors there. I have been to Colorado several times at different times of the year visiting relatives and I don't see Russians being successfully bred there on a regular basis. Where in the U.S., if at all, is there bitter cold dry conditions for most of the year that turns to extreme heat almost instantly and only for 3-4 months before ending in a brief rainy fall then back to winter? None that I know of and if so I don't want to live there anyway! I did live in North Dakota for 2.5 years about 30 years ago and as I recall, it was pretty darn close to the climate description above!
> 
> All the other Testudo species breed pretty well almost everywhere in the U.S.



Wow, I am surprised to hear that. I would have thought that Colorado would be a bit milder, perhaps, but close enough. Perhaps not. I guess I will see once my guys get older.

GB, are there any other Testudos you would recommend for keeping and/or breeding here in Colorado? Or do you think that, despite the breeding challenges, Russians are still the best suited to the climate here?


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## Neltharion (Oct 1, 2011)

Tom said:


> GB laid down some great info in this thread:
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Russian-Tortoise-Breeding-Problems?page=2#axzz1ZOjo8sSQ
> 
> 
> Maybe I'm over thinking this, but is that really all that unusual for me? All are welcome to chime in on this. I'd love to hear from anyone in Southern CA that is keeping Testudo here outside. I'd love to hear how you do it and what you have learned from it along the way. And I'd love to hear about anyone with reproductive success at it. How do you house them in the winter?



I keep Russians not in Southern Cal, but in Northern Cal. November through April, the nighttime lows in the Sacramento area range from the high 30's to the mid 40's on the average. Dec and Jan have average highs in the 50's. Feb, Mar, Nov in the 60's. Apr 70's. 

My Russians start digging themselves in sometime in early October, when the days really start getting short. Because we still have a lot of days in the high 70's to low 90's, they seem to be 'prepping' for hibernation instead of really digging in and staying down. They still come out during the day and eating. I experience similar problems that because of the slightly warmer weather, they would go into hibernation and not be dug in deep enough.

I actually bring mine into an enclosure in the garage from November to the first week of April, where they get 12 hours of mvb lighting and artificial heating (CHE and heating tape). I consistently keep night time temps around 60 and day time temps 80-85 with a higher basking area. 

I don't put mine through a true hibernation. In Feb, I gradually cool them down and decrease the amount of light they get over a two week period. During this period, I also stop feeding. They dig themselves in around 5-6 inches during this time. Then I keep average temps around 60 consistently with no light for two weeks. I've noticed that they shift positions and move around during this two week period, so they're not in hibernation. 

In March, I spend another two weeks gradually warming the enclosure back up again. During this time period, I start giving them small amounts of food and gradually increase the amount. After about two weeks, they are back at night time temps around 60 and day time temps 80-85 with a higher basking area, still indoors for another three to four weeks through early April. During this time period, I observe breeding. Mid-April they're back outdoors. That's when I keep an eye out for nesting areas. 

One thing that was interesting to me, when I kept a single trio, the male did not attempt to breed. After two years without success, I talked to a guy at the local tortoise club. He advised me that I wasn't doing anything wrong, but suggested adding to the herd (particularly males) would help spur breeding through competition. He suggested getting another trio, introducing the two males together briefly than putting them back with their females. I wasn't really interested in a second separate enclosure. So I took a huge chance in getting two more trios, and seeing if a larger group would co-exist with dispersed aggression. Its worked pretty well, one male has established himself as the 'alpha', but splits his time chasing after the two other males and six females. The two other males chase the females, but seem to leave each other alone. But aside from the possible aggression issues, the males attempted breeding with the females the first season the group was introduced together. I've been getting eggs ever since.


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## dmmj (Oct 1, 2011)

how is your hatch rate with your eggs?


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## Tom (Oct 1, 2011)

Great contribution Neltharion. I enjoyed reading that. Thank you.

I wanna know the same thing as the Captain. You are getting eggs. Are you getting babies?

How big is your outdoor for the 3.6 group? Can we get a pic?

Do you split them up indoors? I'm wondering if the re-introduction of the groups in the spring is much of a factor in your success. I have heard of some male/male competition helping with breeding success in some other species of reptiles too.


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## GBtortoises (Oct 2, 2011)

Geo-Yes, I would recommend just about any Testudo species in Colorado! Russians along with North African and Southern Middle Eastern Greeks are probably the least likely canidates to breed sucessfully in Colorado if kept under all or semi natural conditions. Any tortoise species can be bred sucessfully anywhere with a certain amount of or completely artificial conditions. All natural conditions conditions would be putting the tortoise outdoors in an enclosure and letting mother nature do the rest. Semi natural would be keeping them outdoors but most or all of the year but supplementing shelter, additional heat or bringing them indoors as needed. Totally artificial would be maintaining them indoors and controlling everything-their heat, light, enclosure contents, etc...

My weather here could be considered mild too. I've had a group of Russian tortoises since the early 90's and a few before that. When kept exclusively outdoors here they've done nothing more than just exist. They've been healthy and somewhat active, but nothing more. They never bred here until a few years ago when I begin bringing them indoors in the spring and subjecting them to sudden, very hot conditions. Even still they do not produce fertile eggs on a regular basis. But I think that's a matter of me figuring out exactly what it's going to take for them to do so in terms of temperatures at what stage, light intensity and so on. So far they've been very patient with me!

Under semi natural conditions with some extra winter protection Eastern & Dalmatian Hermann's, Marginateds and Ibera Greeks should do well in Colorado. Under semi natural conditions by bringing them indoors in the winter the previous along with Western Hermann's and most Middle Eastern Greeks (especially those of Northern origin) should do well. I can't speak much for species other than Testudo because I either don't keep any others or haven't in several years. Except of a single Burmese Brown tortoise, non of my other non-Testudo species go outdoors here. It's too damp at night.


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## Neltharion (Oct 2, 2011)

dmmj said:


> how is your hatch rate with your eggs?



The first couple years, my hatch rates were 75%. Some of it may have been due to young, inexperienced breeders. Part of that though, I attribute to my inexperience. I had some problems with stable temps and maintaining humidity. I incubate for female, and I think the temps may have spiked a little to high at times, and I lost some eggs from heat. My last few years, the hatch rate is up to 95%. 



Tom said:


> Great contribution Neltharion. I enjoyed reading that. Thank you.
> 
> I wanna know the same thing as the Captain. You are getting eggs. Are you getting babies?
> 
> ...



Mine are not split up indoors. The indoor enclosure is only 4x8. For some reason, the close quarters effect seems to actually reduce aggression. I've always wondered if anyone else observes that. My outdoor enclosure, I estimate is roughly 80 square feet. I'll have to get some pics up later.


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## Tom (Oct 2, 2011)

Thanks for the info Neltharion. More food for thought. I'd really like to see pics of your animals and their enclosures. I can PM you my email if that would be easier for you. I'm trying to learn all I can before I jump in with both feet.

GB, which Testudo species do you think would do the best in my climate here in the Southern CA Desert? I mean in a "put them outside and let mother nature do the rest" situation. I would also provide an underground shelter to help them avoid either of the extremes of hot or cold. We have intermittent below freezing nights from Dec through Feb. It only dips into the high 20's occasionally. The rest of the year nights are in the 40s-50s. Through all summer night temps are in the 60's. Day temps are 50's-60's through most of winter with occasional warm spells. 70's and 80's most of the year in Spring and Fall, and most summer days are around 100 with occasional spikes up to 118.

I will know for sure this winter, but I think ground temps in one of my shelters will stay in the 45-50 degree range with no heat.


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## GBtortoises (Oct 3, 2011)

Tom, I know nothing about the Southern California Desert except what you just told me! But it sounds to me like most Testudo species, including Middle Eastern Greeks would do well there. The only concern for any of the Northern Mediterranean species might be that they have adequate shelters in the summer to escape the extreme heat (tunnels would do great here) and that they have supplemental moisture often. If it were me in that situation I would spray the heck out of them with water in the early morning and evening. Based on the dryness in the winter, you might even have to provide them with some moisture during hibernation if it is too dry. Dehydration during hibernation can be fatal. But again, I have never lived in that climate so really don't know what the day to day might be.


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## Tom (Oct 3, 2011)

Well then I'll keep you posted whenever the experiments get under way. 

I want to watch the winter temps this year down in my artificial burrows and go from there. My fear is that the occasional warm spells in winter will have them up and down and mess things up. But in my underground shelters, the temps should stay consistently cool during winter, even during the occasional few days with highs in the 80's. After all the nights will still be in the 30's and 40's.


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## GBtortoises (Oct 4, 2011)

True, warm spells in the winter might also be a concern. I don't have much worry about warm spells here in the winter here! Once in the past 20 years we had temperatures in the 60's for a week in January. That heatwave actually cause massive flooding and disaster in the area.


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## Claireabbo (Oct 4, 2011)

hmmmmmmmm....


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## Tom (Oct 4, 2011)

Along these lines...

Last November at the TTPG conference, a man gave a presentation on the South African Bowsprit tortoise. Apparently these are hard to keep alive and even harder to breed for some folks. He has had no trouble with them and gets babies every year. To explain his secret of success he simply showed us a world map with some small areas highlighted in red. The Mediterranean area, South Africa (of course), part of Australia, part of Southern South America and Southern CA. He said if you want to keep these successfully, just move to one of these highlighted areas and keep your Bowsprits outside year round. He said he even puts his hatchlings out year round. On the occasional winter night with near freezing temps he puts a small night bulb over his hatchlings, but that's it.


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## GBtortoises (Oct 4, 2011)

I would _very much_ like to hear the methods from those who have sucessfully (consistently) bred Russians year after year, either outdoors, indoors or a combination of both. Conditions, temperatures, light, seasonal change etc... This would all be helpful to all the Russian tortoise owners who are potential captive breeders. Captive breeding of Russians might be the only hope that the species has to survive in the wild. If enough "mom and pop" breeders are able to start offering babies in as an alternative to purchasing wild caught adults at PetSmart and Petco maybe the demand for those adults will lessen and hopefully subside to the point of making their collection and mass importation financially non-viable to those that do it.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 4, 2011)

GBtortoises said:


> I would _very much_ like to hear the methods from those who have sucessfully (consistently) bred Russians year after year, either outdoors, indoors or a combination of both. Conditions, temperatures, light, seasonal change etc... This would all be helpful to all the Russian tortoise owners who are potential captive breeders. Captive breeding of Russians might be the only hope that the species has to survive in the wild. If enough "mom and pop" breeders are able to start offering babies in as an alternative to purchasing wild caught adults at PetSmart and Petco maybe the demand for those adults will lessen and hopefully subside to the point of making their collection and mass importation financially non-viable to those that do it.



Well said!


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## Tom (Oct 4, 2011)

Me too...

Anybody know how to get a hold of -Ryan- in NY. He's a buddy of mine. I PMd him and emailed too, but no response yet. He's producing a fair amount of russian babies every year. His input would be very valuable here.


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## Lulu (Oct 4, 2011)

I am getting a 1.3 group next week and will probably winter them in the garage although our temps don't get very low here. I want to breed them for those very reasons: I want to try to undermine the wild caught industry. My husband has a 1.2 group and we have witnessed the male mounting the females, but we haven't had eggs yet (we don't believe the females were receptive and we don't think he was sexually mature yet). I read your earlier posts about mild springs, so we're going to try to introduce higher temps in the spring to see if that gets them going.

I have another male that is hiding in our yard at present and I'm hoping the rain this week will drive him out. I'd like to add him to my group after quarantine because I've also read that adding competition can stimulate breeding behavior.

I'm also very interested in hearing what has worked for other people, especially in areas like southern California.


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## Tom (Oct 4, 2011)

Renee, I would love to hear how that works out for you guys in the spring. Please keep us posted.

I also got a chuckle from your post.  What you call "hiding in our yard" some people call "lost" and it sends them into an absolute panic.


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## Lulu (Oct 4, 2011)

Oh, I freaked out at first. But we have a three-tiered yard on the side of a hill and the bottom tier is submerged and retained, which is why we keep our tortoises on that level. I don't rule out his growing wings, because he's a Russian, but it's really unlikely he got out of our yard. I know from my husband's Russians that just because we can't find him, it doesn't mean he's not there. We've lost his IN THEIR ENCLOSURE under just a few inches of dirt. So, I'm not happy about it, but I'm figuring he's just being a Russian, the ungrateful booger (this is the one I saved from the 20 gallon tank and the parrot beak).


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## GBtortoises (Oct 4, 2011)

Renee-Just in case you ever wanted to dive into Testudo species even more so (Herman's, Marginateds and all the Greeks). San Diego weather is _excellent_ breeding weather for them! Much more so than for the Russians.


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## Lulu (Oct 4, 2011)

I'm thinking Marginateds eventually (your guy is on the truck for delivery and will be here any minute). We're stopping here for the time being, except for maybe another Russian female or two for the hubby's group, but I definitely see Marginateds in the future.

When my daughter goes off to college in 8-9 years we will probably move somewhere more rural. My father-in-law lives in Pearblossom. Tom probably knows it. I doubt we'll go THAT rural but we may end up somewhere near there. It's desert.


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## Tom (Oct 6, 2011)

Yeah, that's about 40 minutes North of me. It is even more "desert" than my area.


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## Jacqui (Oct 6, 2011)

jeffbens0n said:


> Does anyone have any breeding success without hibernating?



I do and I know my friend Shelly Jones in Lincoln, NE also is starting to do less and less hibernating and yet gets a lot of hatchlings. She use to hibernate all of hers inside in the fridge (perhaps you read her article about it?). After having a couple of losses from things associated or a result of hibernation, she has decided to try the non-hibernating route.


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## Tom (Oct 7, 2011)

Details. We need details. Share the secrets. What are you guys doing differently to get your results?


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 9, 2011)

Looks like there are a couple of commercial breeders with baby Russian tortoises:

In Arizona: http://www.arizonatortoisecompound.com/Russian-tortoises/
In Florida: http://turtleshack.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=88_89&products_id=464

If they have baby Russian tortoises, then they must be captive-breeding their own, right?


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## -ryan- (Oct 9, 2011)

jeffbens0n said:


> Does anyone have any breeding success without hibernating?



I'm a late comer to the thread (was on vacation in myrtle beach!).

I hatch and sell dozens of russians each year. My tortoises are effectively indoors all of the time. At my old house I had an outdoor enclosure that I would put them out in during the summer months when we were around to supervise, but this year at my new house I didn't yet get a chance to build new outdoor enclosures, so they've been indoors all year.

Here's how I keep them: 1 male and 4 females in an enclosure measuring 8'x4' with 12" tall walls and a wood top except for the aluminum grates that the heat lamps set on. two concrete mixing bins measuring 3'x2'x8" are sunk into the floor and filled with standard issue top soil (the same soil has been in use since '06 with only about 4-5 bags added). Two 45 watt halogen bulbs are mounted above each bin. Every other day they get a tray measuring 24"x18" of fresh greens with calcium and d3. I take them out and plop them in an inch of water while I clean the enclosure realistically about twice a month, though I try to do it weekly. Their year-round light cycle is lights go on around 6:30 or 7am, and go off a little after 8pm. The lights plug into wall outlets on a dedicated circuit with a hardwired timer.

That is it. Each female lays a clutch of 2-4 eggs every 2-3 months with the exception of one who is a little younger. On average I have about a 75% hatch rate, but that is simply due to the fact that I don't always have the incubator dialed in correctly (it's easy to get busy working on something else and the incubator gets too dry for a period long enough to effect hatch rates).

I don't do anything intentional to breed them. I have never hibernated the tortoises. During the winter months each tortoise will usually disappear into the dirt for a period of a week to a month and then emerge, so something about the variance of heat/light in the reptile room tells them it is winter, but I do nothing to effect this.

Essentially, it has been my experience that a lack of tinkering produces the best results. The simpler the better. Make sure they have dirt directly underneath basking areas which allows for 6-10" of digging (once they hit the bottom they will stop digging and refuse to lay eggs, and they do go deep), and females will have much higher success rates if they are large. My best breeder is over 8" scl and weighs in at about 3 pounds. My male is under 5" and usually about a pound.

That's just my 2 cents based on my experience keeping and breeding them indoors. Outdoors I imagine, assuming the climate is acceptable, you could just build them a pen and let them do their thing.



GeoTerraTestudo said:


> Looks like there are a couple of commercial breeders with baby Russian tortoises:
> 
> In Arizona: http://www.arizonatortoisecompound.com/Russian-tortoises/
> In Florida: http://turtleshack.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=88_89&products_id=464
> ...



Not necessarily, but they may. I sell 95% of my tortoises wholesale to dealers.


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## Tom (Oct 9, 2011)

I don't know about the people in FL. They could be breeders OR brokers, but ATC is Mick, here on our forum. I'll PM him and ask him to join in.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 9, 2011)

Cool responses, guys! Looking forward to seeing what Mick might have to say.

BTW - Ryan, what part of the country do you live in?


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## Tom (Oct 9, 2011)

Well the mystery deepens. Seems like the people who simulate wild conditions the most are having the LEAST amount of success. That's a surprise.

To recap:
Ryan just leaves his inside all the time and they self impose a light hibernation even though temps and light cycles don't change much. He has great breeding success.

Neltharion leaves his outside most of the year in Northern CA, and does a short indoor cooling period and has great breeding success.

Emysemys is fairly close to Neltharion and does it nearly the same, but has no breeding success at all.

GB does a mix of indoors and outdoors, with a hibernation, and has mixed results.

My friend Ken leaves his 1.4 group outdoors year round with a "natural" hibernation, here in Southern CA, and after several years has had no success.

I PM'd Mick. Can't wait to hear what he has to say.

Jacqui and her friend in Nebraska do not hibernate, but do have breeding success. Jacqui, we need still more details on your routine. Pretty please...

I'm just not seeing any commonalities that would explain this... Anyone else? Here's a possible theory: Origin and different types of russians.

Around two years ago Danny did a thread listing the three russian subspecies. I was met with much debate and the thread died without much conclusion. Some said thera are no subspecies and just slightly different appearances from different regions of the range. Is it possible that there ARE different types from throughout the range, whether they are true subspecies or not, and that these different types will not interbreed very well?

Will everyone listed above please do their best to list their tortoises source and origin if it is known? Maybe Ryan and Neltharion bought all adults that all came in in one shipment all from the same geographical region. Maybe Yvonne has acquired several types over the years as rescues and they are from different regions. I know my friend Ken has just bought his one at a time over the years from different sources. Two or three are CBB and his latest one is WC. If this theory IS correct we might be on our way to solving the mystery.


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## dmmj (Oct 9, 2011)

To help settle the mystery, mine were all rescues Origin unknown. The male I have had the longest loves to mate though.


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## Tom (Oct 9, 2011)

dmmj said:


> To help settle the mystery, mine were all rescues Origin unknown. The male I have had the longest loves to mate though.



It seems ALL the mature males like to mate, but the question is: Any babies?


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 10, 2011)

Here's the thread on Russian subspecies (it is stickied at the top of the Russian tortoise sub-forum). I believe EgyptianDan did mention that Russian tortoises from different subspecies have difficulty interbreeding. The three types are fairly easy to distinguish:

_Testudo horsfieldi horsfieldi_ - Profile is domed, shell is rounded
_Testudo horsfieldi rustamovi_ - Profile is domed, shell is elongated
_Testudo horsfieldi kazachstanica_ - Profile is flattened, shell is rounded

Those who are having trouble breeding their Russian tortoises can check to see if they have individuals from different subspecies. As Tom said, maybe those who are having greater success are those with tortoises from the same subspecies. It's worth looking into.


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## -ryan- (Oct 10, 2011)

I'll give you the origin story for my group, but I'm afraid as you'll find there is also no consistency:

1.0 acquired in late 2005 as a hatchling CB (from lllreptile). My first tortoise. Now less than 5" and approximately 6-6.5 years of age. Has been breeding with limited success since 4" at 3 years, better success after 4-4.5 years of age. Appearance is slightly domed and elongated. Blonde color.

0.1 acquired as a rescue in early 2006. Adult when acquired at 5". Now approximately 7". First breeding success after 3 years in my captive care. Now fairly regular egg layer (about 3-4 clutches of 2-3 eggs per year). Appearance is domed and round. Dark color.

0.1 acquired mid-late 2006. Adult and gravid when acquired. Already close to 8". Most regular breeder I have. Laid eggs shortly after acquired, one of which hatched creating the tortoise which I will document next. Lays 5-6 clutches per year of 2-4 eggs (if only 2, they are usually jumbo). Appearance is flat and elongated. Very blonde color.

0.1 hatched from initial clutch in late 2006. Raised without artificial lighting. Indoors entire life. Grew quickly to approximately 8" scl. Has not to my knowledge laid eggs yet, but is young (though large), and was recently integrated into the group as she is not related to my male. Her mother was the above documented large blonde tortoise, and father was a small russian highly domed and almost perfectly round (and very dark). This tortoise is slightly domed, but elongated and very blonde in color.

0.1 acquired early 2010 as a trade for hatchlings. 7" when acquired and has shown some growth since then. Second strongest layer with 4-6 clutches of 2-3 eggs per year. Appearance is round and domed, dark in coloration.

So I really don't feel that different subspecies will effect the ability of the tortoises to reproduce successfully. I don't really subscribe to the idea of russian subspecies (not willing to get into that debate though), so I just consider these changes naturally occurring color and shape variants in animals that, for all intents and purposes are the same.

Even though I don't mark which female lays the eggs, I have gotten to the point that I can tell once they hatch whose babies they were, based mostly on color and size.

Obviously something is happening the right way with my tortoises (I'm not going to go so far as to say that "I am doing something right", because all I did was build a very specific box). Actually, the only thing I can't seem to get dialed in at this point is my incubation technique. It is off and on, and with a little tweaking I could probably get close to 100% hatch rate out of all of those eggs. That and I sometimes go too long between digging up eggs. The worst is when you are digging in an area they don't usually use and so are not as careful as normal, and you stick your finger through a well-rotten egg. It takes a lot of washing to get rid of that smell.



Tom said:


> Well the mystery deepens. Seems like the people who simulate wild conditions the most are having the LEAST amount of success. That's a surprise.
> 
> To recap:
> Ryan just leaves his inside all the time and they self impose a light hibernation even though temps and light cycles don't change much. He has great breeding success.
> ...


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## Tom (Oct 10, 2011)

Great info. Thanks Ryan.

I'm stumped. Anyone want to guess?

Seems like in all cases they do better after settling in for a period of years, but that doesn't explain some of the cases that have had little or no breeding success.


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## Neltharion (Oct 10, 2011)

Tom said:


> Around two years ago Danny did a thread listing the three russian subspecies. I was met with much debate and the thread died without much conclusion. Some said thera are no subspecies and just slightly different appearances from different regions of the range. Is it possible that there ARE different types from throughout the range, whether they are true subspecies or not, and that these different types will not interbreed very well?
> 
> Will everyone listed above please do their best to list their tortoises source and origin if it is known?



Mine came from a wholesaler in Southern California that buys Russians from an exporter in Uzbekistan. I tend to believe that the exporter has several people collecting for them though covering different areas. The group that I have may not all be from the same region. Also I bought my first trio a little over two years before I bought the next two trios. Mine tend to be rounder and not as high domed. There were a lot of variations in color. One male and female in particular are more of a high yellow than green.


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## Az tortoise compound (Oct 10, 2011)

Our Russian group is now 6.18. (not all are proven) That represents 3 purchases of 2.6 with the last group added in early 2010. They were purchased from three different sources but I can only trace them back to the importer not where they were collected?? They are all housed together, outside all year long. Some disappear for several weeks every winter while others stay active (every other day or so). Nests are laid from Mar-Apr until late June when they start to aestivate. Every day they are active they display breeding behavior...Hatch rates have increased as the adults have aged. The addition of misters (summertime) two years ago has helped me postpone aestivation and gain a second clutch of eggs each year from my oldest females.

My opinion on 3 ssp is...The jury is still out. I have had all body types in the same imported group so who knows?
I also do not subscribe to the theory that hibernation increases breeding behavior or egg production.


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## GBtortoises (Oct 11, 2011)

Ryan breeding method contains consistency (along with alot of heat and dryness) which I think is the most important aspect of tortoise breeding-routine. I've always believed that the most sucessful breeders live in areas of warmer longer summers and mild to no winters, even with Northern Mediterranean Testudo species. Or kept their tortoises exclusively indoors. In order for me to do that here in the Northeast with all that I have I would need a 50' x 100' or bigger opne barn that was insulated and heated. The wife isn't up for that!
As far as the Russian subspecies issue-for the most part, very few researchers and experts except the subspecies. I tend to agree with them and believe that they are only different physical variations based on different geographical regions, but the same species.
Mick-Hibernation may not affect tortoises in your climate as they do in mine, but here where I live my tortoises show a very obvious response to hibernation in relation to spring mating. I have adult Testudo that I keep indoors, awake throughout the winter and place them outdoors in the spring. They breed and produce eggs very inconsistenly. I also have groups that hibernate outdoors here from November through April. From the point of first coming out of the ground you can just about set your watch to them. They breed and then produce their first, second and often third clutch of eggs like clockwork. A very important result of this is that my outdoor tortoises have a far higher fertility rate than do my tortoises that are overwintered indoors. But again, I believe that it may have everything to do with the climate that they are exposed to.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 11, 2011)

Once again, great thread.


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## Tom (Oct 11, 2011)

Reading all this and studying up for the last few weeks is making me want to give it a try even sooner than I had originally planned... Time to start building.


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## Lulu (Oct 12, 2011)

We've always left my husband's out to hibernate if they wanted to with no ill effects and had decided not to do that this year. Our winters are mild and they act much like Mick's, sleeping for weeks with brief periods of activity. Now I'm reconsidering. It seems like hands off is the way to go. As I've mentioned before, we've seen attempts at mating, but no eggs, and we felt that it was mostly due to a lack of maturity of the male (he had trouble figuring out the right end, for example). We'll also have another group that has been left out during winter in a similar climate. I know that the rule is not to hibernate in the first year, but we don't get snow, so they won't be hard to check, and they haven't been overwintered indoors in the past.


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## Tom (Oct 13, 2011)

As a side note, I've heard the "don't hibernate them their first year" theory many times. I'm not sure I agree with it. I myself have done it many time with baby lizards and torts with no problems. I do it indoors, under complete control and carefully, and I've never had any problems. They all hibernate their first year out in the wild, don't they? I'm not willing to just leave a baby outside for fear of predators and weather extremes, but under controlled conditions, I don't have a problem with it.


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## CactusVinnie (Oct 13, 2011)

Hi all!

Regarding the low rate of success in breeding Horsflelds, keep in mind that they HIBERNATE everywhere in their distribution, all the ssp. Winter minima there range from -15*C down to -45*C in that vast areal: from Armenia to Mongolia!! Something like from central AZ/NM/TX up to Manitoba. I think it is a distinctive feature for them- long inactivity periods.


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## Jacqui (Oct 13, 2011)

Tom said:


> Jacqui and her friend in Nebraska do not hibernate, but do have breeding success. Jacqui, we need still more details on your routine. Pretty please...



Okay, I doubled checked on some of the details with Shelly when I stopped by her house last night. Unfortunately, I couldn't get into a lot of detail with her, as she was on her way to ship off a Russian hatchling to some lucky person. I did also get the chance to see one of her eggs starting to hatch and a just hatched baby. (I always forget how tiny hatchlings are and just how miraculous they seem).

We both keep our Russians inside during the cold months, which here are usually late Sept to early October. I tend to keep mine out a few weeks longer then she does. Inside we both keep ours in warm rooms, but she also uses UV lights, which I don't. Substrates I think are both the coir/sand combo. Shelly does keep her males separate from the females.

Come Spring, mine once more go out a few weeks earlier then her tortoises. Top of my head, I really can't think when mine went out this year, perhaps late April? Once out, mine stay out 24/7. I need to double check, but I believe she does the same. 

May avg temp is 74/50 rainfall 4.65 humidity am 84% humidity pm 60%
June avg temp is 84/61 " " 4.77 " " 83% " " 58%
July avg temp is 89/67 " " 3.87 " " 83% " " 58%
Aug avg temp is 86/64 " " 3.85 " " 87% " " 61%
Sept avg temp is 78/53 " " 2.98 " " 85% " " 59%


I learned something doing that chart, I never realized how high our relative humidty averages were. Sorta shocked me.


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## Tom (Oct 13, 2011)

Jacqui, You've got a lot of tortoise experience. Got any ideas why some have success breeding russians and some don't, given all the wildly different housing and care techniques?

BTW, Thanks for the info.


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## pdrobber (Nov 29, 2011)

what happened to this thread? let's see if I get a response to these or it takes someone like Tom to ask in order to get answers...anyway...

After reading this and other threads, we have an idea about influences of hibernation and indoor vs outdoor, climate in general. 

Roughly judging based on this data, maybe there are consistently better results with as large as possible indoor enclosures(for most US climates), minimal handling, and a light hibernation?

However, I'm still curious 
1. lighting? what temps are at basking spot, cool spots, nighttime in enclosures most of the time (in comparison to hibernation temps and duration)
2. vitamins, calcium and supplements being used? which? how much? how often? I recall someone saying they don't use UVB but do provide Calcium w/ D3 (it has been disputed that D3 can be overdosed)
3. substrate being used, depth and moisture level
4. how many males? how are they all being kept? males together, females and males together? in pairs, trios, all together? males being put together sometimes to trigger competition, stimulate hormones?

also
what kind of incubator? 
substrate?
humidity method and level?
duration?
temp?


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## gopherhockey03 (Nov 29, 2011)

GBtortoises said:


> Well, I haven't been to the Southwest, but I'm guessing with some artificial hibernation they would breed well outdoors there. I have been to Colorado several times at different times of the year visiting relatives and I don't see Russians being successfully bred there on a regular basis. Where in the U.S., if at all, is there bitter cold dry conditions for most of the year that turns to extreme heat almost instantly and only for 3-4 months before ending in a brief rainy fall then back to winter? None that I know of and if so I don't want to live there anyway! I did live in North Dakota for 2.5 years about 30 years ago and as I recall, it was pretty darn close to the climate description above!
> 
> All the other Testudo species breed pretty well almost everywhere in the U.S.



So as you know Gary I live in North Dakota you think they could hibernate here? I think they would have to dig down pretty deep not to freeze. As you know it can get down to -40 with LOTS of snow... I'm interested in hibernating and your right the climate where they come from is almost identical to what it is up here!


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## pdrobber (Nov 29, 2011)

hmm maybe my questions should be separate since this is titled "Hibernation..." DUH so if a mod wants to move it feel free, just want to bring up the topic of Russian breeding again and see some discussion on factors other than hibernating.


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## gopherhockey03 (Nov 29, 2011)

We might as well keep the breeding talk going! This was getting really interesting then I just ran out of posts to read!!! =) Eveyone lets talk about this some more!!!


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## CactusVinnie (Dec 1, 2011)

Tanner, Minnesota/ND are quite like Kazakhstan. If the ground is not too heavy, they could dig deep enough to escape the cold. You also may provide a protected shelter, to raise the frostline, and make their work easier. Not wet, not dusty dry soil for that. 

In order to simulate the sudden spring-warm that sparks them into breeding mood, a simple foiltunnel that warms up seriously even in cooler, sunny spring days, with juicy weeds inside (these also will be bigger than those in the fields) will do just fine. Take care to overheating- I think a simple thermostat conected to a fan, starting at 30*C (probe/thermostat in the shade), will solve that also.
You just remove it in May (?), when natural warmth came. At your place, even the idea of a solid greenhouse should not be discarded- it may serve for both brumation and breeding too.


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## mytwotortys (Dec 4, 2011)

chase thorn said:


> colorado is pretty close  im going to get a female someday and attempt to bred



WHAT KIND OF TORT IS THAT?????? I really need to know cos it's the exact same breed as mine an I dunno what mine is D':



dmmj said:


> Well in case anyone is interested I hibernate mine inside my shed inside a large box. I put down about 6 inches of dirt and then lay down a large layer of leaves. Here in california it does stay warmish (is that a word?) So I keep an eye on them through the winter (HA HA ) I am interested to find out if a proper hibernation is essential to a good breeding season,if so I may artificially hibernate them in the coming years. I have never done this but I know a couple of people who have done so.



What is artificial hibernation?????


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## Floof (Dec 4, 2011)

mytwotortys: If you post pictures of your tortoises we can tell you what kind it is. Knowing what species your tortoise is is vital to making sure you have proper care. If you post a new thread with pictures of the tort, we can tell you what it is and what the proper care is for that species.

I wish I could go check Chase's post and tell you, as my curiosity is piqued, but my cheap little phone would have a meltdown if I tried.. 

Also, artificial hibernation is where one duplicates the conditions of a natural hibernation (mainly the temps) and hibernates their tortoises indoors. There's a couple reasons for doing this. In dmmj's case, his climate is too warm for the torts to hibernate naturally outside, so he would have to bring them inside and duplicate ideal conditions if he wants them to go through the kind of "full" hibernation a Russian tort would experience in their native range.


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## mytwotortys (Dec 5, 2011)

Ok, now I know one thing, so, is artificial hibernation like where you put your torts in a fridge?





Lol


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Dec 5, 2011)

mytwotortys said:


> Ok, now I know one thing, so, is artificial hibernation like where you put your torts in a fridge?
> 
> 
> View attachment 14083
> ...




Yes, give them a cool down period without food for at least two weeks, make sure they have no food and almost no waste left in their gut, and then let them brumate in moist (but not wet!) substrate in a refrigerator at 40*F. Don't use the family food fridge because, although the door does need to be opened periodically to refresh the air, constantly opening and shutting the door day after day would disturb them. Better to use a separate fridge (we use a mini-fridge) and either open it every few days to check on them, or else break the seal with aquarium tubing or a hollowed-out pen to allow some air circulation. This could warm the internal environment a bit, though, so you might have to adjust the thermostat to keep it at 40*F. This is our first winter hibernating turtles indoors, but this is the advice we have gotten here at TFO and we are following it. So far so good.


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