# Desert tortoise fertility?



## Shelly

Hi everybody. I am new here, and have a question that I hope maybe somebody can answer.
I have 2 Desert Torts, an adult male and an adult female. Both appear very healthy. 
To be blunt, they have sex all the time, almost daily (I should be so lucky). But after 5 years, I have yet to get any eggs. I am wondering what the problem is.
Is there an age at which they are no longer fertile? The female is about 50 years old I was told by the previous owner. I don't know how old the male is, but he's probably up there too.
Also I am wondering if it may have something to do with their relative size. The male isn't very big, about 9.5 pounds. The female is a bit larger, about 13 pounds. Yet when they do "it" it appears the act is successfully consummated (what a mess!)
Any light anybody can shed would be greatly appreciated!


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## Crazy1

Hi Shelly and welcome to the Forum. Can you tell us or post a pic of their habitat? Where are you located?


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## Yvonne G

Shelly said:


> I have 2 Desert Torts, an adult male and an adult female. Both appear very healthy.
> Is there an age at which they are no longer fertile? The female is about 50 years old I was told by the previous owner. I don't know how old the male is, but he's probably up there too.
> The male isn't very big, about 9.5 pounds. The female is a bit larger, about 13 pounds.



Hi Shelly: Are you sure that the male is a Gopherus agassizii? From the size I might hazard a guess that he is a Texas tortoise. Can you put up a picture of his plastron for us to see? As for fertility and age, it has been discovered that females at the very end of their lives...upwards of 80 years and more...have the ability to lay viable eggs. I don't recall if the study included the viability of a male's sperm at an older age, but at only 9 and a half pounds, I would say he's not that old (or he's not a Calif. desert tortoise.)

Another thing to think of is red ants. If I allow any of my different kinds of tortoises' eggs to stay in the ground the ants eat through the shell and eat the eggs.

A note of caution: According to the Department of Fish and Game, it is illegal to artificially incubate desert tortoise eggs. If you should happen to have a nest of eggs, you are supposed to let nature take its course.

Yvonne


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## Shelly

I live in the Los Angeles area, in the San Fernando Valley. The torts live freely in my large backyard. They are pretty self-sufficient, and seem to need almost no care on my part. There is a large variety of edible plants on my property, and have a good diet and shelter.
Here are some pics. The top is my female "Bubbles". Next is the male "Rover" You can see a healed crack in his shell from a car accident many years ago. 
Bottom shows them together, along with my 9 year old, "Philbert". I got him when he was a week old!
The male does have a slightly different appearance than the other 2. His shell is smoother and grayer than the others, and his skin is not nearly as "spikey" as the others. Maybe he is a different variety? I was told that they both were "California Desert Tortoises" when I adopted them 
I am sure the male is fully grown, as I have had him for over 11 years, and he hasn't grown too much if at all in that time. I have had the female for about 7 years.


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## Yvonne G

I'm pretty sure that the male with the cracked shell is a Gopherus berlandieri, or Texas tortoise. They have a more wedge-shaped head, and I see that in his head. Also, they have a VERY DEEP indentation on their plastron, that's why I asked for a plastron picture. But even without seeing the plastron, I'm pretty sure he's a Texas tortoise. I'm given Texas tortoises frequently by people who believe they are California tortoises. Aside from their smaller size, they are pretty hard for your average non-tortoise person to i.d.

Yvonne


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## Shelly

Wow, thanks for the info. I had no idea. Yes, he does have the deep indent you describe.
Is that why there have been no offspring? Different species?


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## Yvonne G

Shelly said:


> Wow, thanks for the info. I had no idea. Yes, he does have the deep indent you describe.
> Is that why there have been no offspring? Different species?



Here's an excerpt from an article written by Michael Connor (Molecular Biology and the Turtle:
The desert tortoise and its relatives):

"When the scientists compared DNA from all four species of gopher tortoise they confirmed the close link between X. agassizii and X. berlandieri, and between G. flavomarginatus and G. polyphemus. Their results suggested that the Xerobates and Gopherus forms last shared a common female ancestor some 5-6 million years ago. The Texas tortoise, X. berlandieri, proved to be very closely related to the "eastern" agassizii genotype. It is highly likely that berlandieri evolved from this eastern agassizii assemblage, probably from Xerobates stock inhabiting the north central region of Sonora. Perhaps the closeness of the relationship between the eastern agassizii assemblage and berlandieri explains the occasional occurrence of hybrids from matings between captive Texas and desert tortoises."

So it looks like they do interbreed in captivity and that they are closely related. 

You mentioned something in your first post that might be the answer. You said that they were actually consumating the act because it was "messy". I think that would more than likely mean that actual breeding was NOT taking place. There usually isn't any "mess" involved, as the male tortoise's penis is inside the female when the sperm is let go. So maybe there really isn't actual copulation going on, he's just going through the motions???

Yvonne


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## Shelly

Thanks again Yvonne.
I never knew a tortoise had a penis. I don't think there is any penetration. Probably due to the difference is size, I guess.


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## Yvonne G

Shelly said:


> Thanks again Yvonne.
> I never knew a tortoise had a penis. I don't think there is any penetration. Probably due to the difference is size, I guess.



For those of you who are faint-of-heart, please don't look at this picture. For others, this is what the tortoise penis looks like in full regalia:







That is how it gets "stuck" inside the female, until the sperm is released.

Yvonne


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## janiedough

ew - but thanks for sharing - now I really hope Percy isn't a male!


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## egyptiandan

Hi Shelly,
Your male is a Desert tortoise, sorry Yvonne . Texas tortoises have a more domed and rounded carapace with light centers to the scutes.
If you post plastron pictures we can sex all 3 of your Desert tortoises Shelly 

Danny


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## Shelly

OK, here's a shot of the "plastron" (I had to look it up!) as well as a better shot of his little noggin.


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## Yvonne G

Shelly said:


> OK, here's a shot of the "plastron" (I had to look it up!) as well as a better shot of his little noggin.



Yup! Dan's correct again! Gopherus agassizii.

Yvonne


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## Shelly

So they are both California desert Torts? They do look quite different. Sure wish I could get some babies....


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## Laura

AS cute as they are.. you arent supposed to breed them on purpose..


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## Josh

whoa yvonne....that was....shocking!


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## Itort

First time I saw this, I thought it was a prolapse. We do learn alot when we watch day to day tort life.


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## lgdpt

I know this is an old post....but does this little male look like a Texas or a CA?

He is my brothers...smaller than other DT's we have, more rounded shell, light in the center of scutes, etc.....


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## Yvonne G

Kind of looks female to me. What does the plastron look like?

Yvonne


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## lgdpt

Hi Yvonne, hes ALL male. Plastron is concave and he has "whipped it out" a few times. Haaaaaa


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## egyptiandan

Travis he is a Desert/Texas tortoise hybrid. He has the shell shape of a Texas tortoise and colors and the head and legs of a Desert tortoise. 

Danny


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## Shelly

My original question is still unanswered.. Is there an age when desert torts are no longer fertile??


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## egyptiandan

Technically no  A female tortoise can produce eggs up until she passes away. A male can produce sperm up until he passes away.
This though is in the wild, where animals don't usually get to a ripe old age. I have found though that elderly females do stop laying, not sure about males though. 
Hard to say why your female isn't laying. She may not have enough extra weight to produce yolks (yolks are just fat and if the body doesn't have fat reserves a female won't produce yolks). She may not be getting enough calcium to shell eggs. She may be laying and you have never seen her nest or found a nest. She could have an underlying problem or infection that is stopping her from laying.
There are so many things that could be happening. Just because you have a male and female, that doesn't guarantee that you will get eggs.

Danny


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## lgdpt

Wow Danny! I didnt expect that. Thats pretty incredible. Do you really think he is the result of a texas and a CA breeding? Or do you just mean he looks like a mix of the two? (Sorry if thats a stupid question)

This is VERY interesting!!!!!!!!

Thank you for the response. I really apreciate it. (My brother is going to be SHOCKED!!!)



Shelly said:


> My original question is still unanswered.. Is there an age when desert torts are no longer fertile??



Shelly, sorry to hijack your thread....


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## egyptiandan

You can't look like the 2 unless one parent was a Texas tortoise and the other parent was a Desert tortoise 

Danny


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## lgdpt

Gotcha. 

For some reason I didnt think they could successfully breed. I guess Mr T proves that theory wrong.

Is this a rare tort? Or is it common for Texas and Deserts to mate?


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## egyptiandan

Hybrids are thankfully pretty rare. 

Danny


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## lgdpt

makes sense to me. Thanks again!


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