# DT just peed milk looking pee!!!



## AZGirl (Jul 29, 2020)

Parker, my Sonoran Desert Tortoise just peed about 1/4 cup of what looked like milk. Have only caught him peeing that much a cpl times, he was scared. But, it was clear.

, I had just finished soaking him abt 15 min and moved him to eat. Came to check and it looked like spilled milk! He was eating.
should I be concerned??.

thx, Dee


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## Chubbs the tegu (Jul 29, 2020)

No worries. Normal


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## AZGirl (Jul 29, 2020)

Thank you, then is clear pee also okay?


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## Chubbs the tegu (Jul 29, 2020)

Yes all good


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## Chubbs the tegu (Jul 29, 2020)

Well hydrated


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## Tom (Jul 29, 2020)

AZGirl said:


> Parker, my Sonoran Desert Tortoise just peed about 1/4 cup of what looked like milk. Have only caught him peeing that much a cpl times, he was scared. But, it was clear.
> 
> , I had just finished soaking him abt 15 min and moved him to eat. Came to check and it looked like spilled milk! He was eating.
> should I be concerned??.
> ...


That is urates. Urates are formed when things are too dry. Eventually, with longer term dehydration, these can form into bladder stones that eventually kill the tortoise, or require a horribly invasive surgery to remove.

They can be prevented by upping the hydration. Soak more often and longer, make a puddle in the yard with a hose (run it for 30-60 seconds first), and spraying water on the food before feeding it to the tortoise. Also, do you feed opuntia to your tortoise? You should and this is another good way to get some hydration into them.


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## Chubbs the tegu (Jul 29, 2020)

Tom said:


> That is urates. Urates are formed when things are too dry. Eventually, with longer term dehydration, these can form into bladder stones that eventually kill the tortoise, or require a horribly invasive surgery to remove.
> 
> They can be prevented by upping the hydration. Soak more often and longer, make a puddle in the yard with a hose (run it for 30-60 seconds first), and spraying water on the food before feeding it to the tortoise. Also, do you feed opuntia to your tortoise? You should and this is another good way to get some hydration into them.


Tom, not questioning ur expertise.. but arent urqtes fairly normal as long as their not solid? Just excess protein, uric acids, minerals etc.


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## Chubbs the tegu (Jul 29, 2020)

I mean when u say the tort can die from urates.. ur gonna scare the sh*t out of 90% of the ppl here


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## AZGirl (Jul 29, 2020)

Tom said:


> That is urates. Urates are formed when things are too dry. Eventually, with longer term dehydration, these can form into bladder stones that eventually kill the tortoise, or require a horribly invasive surgery to remove.
> 
> They can be prevented by upping the hydration. Soak more often and longer, make a puddle in the yard with a hose (run it for 30-60 seconds first), and spraying water on the food before feeding it to the tortoise. Also, do you feed opuntia to your tortoise? You should and this is another good way to get some hydration into them.



Oh, I wouldn’t want that.
I dont feed optunia, not familiar with it. In fact, I really could use a desert tortoise food supplement as Parker turns his nose up at all the things I’ve been trying to find that are native. He wont eat grape leaves, mallow weeds I’ve dug up along the roadside, the grass in my yard (wild/crab). I need a good resource for tortoise (esp desert) supplies.

I am letting him live in the yard this summer. Nights too. We made him a hideaway, he decided to use beneath the wood pile instead. Wood is on pallets and covered with tarp. I am at the high end of elevation for my Sonoran DT, 5300’. Yet, we have had a warm summer and the rains have been slow to come. This is his first full-time, outdoor summer. He sticks to one side of yard and it is all fenced. We have ‘misplaced‘ him a couple times but, now we can’t see that facr back into his‘den’.

I will increase soaks. Keep trying new foods. Nursery doesn’t sell weeds. ??

he likes bok choy and raddish tops besides loving romaine which, I Know, offers little if any nutrition.

tortoises are way more work than dogs,imo, at least worrying whether you’re doing it right or not, food, etc.

My dog (who passed in 18), I knew.
Thank you for the info.


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## Tom (Jul 29, 2020)

Chubbs the tegu said:


> Tom, not questioning ur expertise.. but arent urqtes fairly normal as long as their not solid? Just excess protein, uric acids, minerals etc.


When they are well hydrated, they pee clear fluid. Urates aren't formed until things start getting pretty dry. Have you spent much time in the CA or AZ desert? When we say dry, we are sometimes talking single digit humidity. Seeing a big pile of urates is a wake up call for a DT owner especially, but really anybody in this type of climate.

I rarely see urates from any of my tortoises, but when I do the tort that dropped them gets some serious soak time. in summer.

I don't want to be overly alarmist, but soooooo many DTs die from these bladder stones. Sulcatas too sometimes.

Sickening anecdote: At a local CTTC (CA turtle and tortoise club) show a forum member here set up a booth with lots of pics of leopard tortoises with closed chambers, as well as some smooth live animals grown in these optimal conditions. Next to her was a booth promoting DTs. The people at this DT booth had made a few comments and were scornfully looking at our TFO friend throughout the day because they did not approve of all this hydration and humidity mumbo jumbo. At their booth was an assortment of large bladder stones that had been taken out of DTs that had died from them. They had the evidence of the failure of their methods on display, while throwing shade on the person who was trying to teach others how to prevent death from chronic dehydration.


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## Tom (Jul 29, 2020)

AZGirl said:


> Oh, I wouldn’t want that.
> I dont feed optunia, not familiar with it. In fact, I really could use a desert tortoise food supplement as Parker turns his nose up at all the things I’ve been trying to find that are native. He wont eat grape leaves, mallow weeds I’ve dug up along the roadside, the grass in my yard (wild/crab). I need a good resource for tortoise (esp desert) supplies.
> 
> I am letting him live in the yard this summer. Nights too. We made him a hideaway, he decided to use beneath the wood pile instead. Wood is on pallets and covered with tarp. I am at the high end of elevation for my Sonoran DT, 5300’. Yet, we have had a warm summer and the rains have been slow to come. This is his first full-time, outdoor summer. He sticks to one side of yard and it is all fenced. We have ‘misplaced‘ him a couple times but, now we can’t see that facr back into his‘den’.
> ...


Tortoises eat what they've eaten before. It takes time and effort to introduce new foods, even if the new stuff is better for them. Finely mince tiny tiny amounts of the new stuff. Mix that in with their usual favorites and some water. Gradually add in more and more of the new stuff until they become accustomed to it and it eat more readily. Might takes weeks or months in some cases.


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## AZGirl (Jul 29, 2020)

Tom said:


> Tortoises eat what they've eaten before. It takes time and effort to introduce new foods, even if the new stuff is better for them. Finely mince tiny tiny amounts of the new stuff. Mix that in with their usual favorites and some water. Gradually add in more and more of the new stuff until they become accustomed to it and it eat more readily. Might takes weeks or months in some cases.



Thank you, I will def soak more frequently.
Meanwhile, having gotten him to eat some bok how and darker lettuces, are these ok as I add the small amounts of new food. Also do you all have an online resource for food supplements


Tom said:


> Tortoises eat what they've eaten before. It takes time and effort to introduce new foods, even if the new stuff is better for them. Finely mince tiny tiny amounts of the new stuff. Mix that in with their usual favorites and some water. Gradually add in more and more of the new stuff until they become accustomed to it and it eat more readily. Might takes weeks or months in some cases.



pin the meantime, is book choy and other dark leaf lettuce radish tops ok? Does anyone have an online resource for DT food supplement and calcium bone things? Local pet marts seem to cater to water turtles or such, not DT.

thanks for the replies!


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## AZGirl (Jul 29, 2020)

AZGirl said:


> Thank you, I will def soak more frequently.
> Meanwhile, having gotten him to eat some bok how and darker lettuces, are these ok as I add the small amounts of new food. Also do you all have an online resource for food supplements
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry, my tablet died in middle of post. ?


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## Tom (Jul 29, 2020)

AZGirl said:


> Sorry, my tablet died in middle of post. ?


Feeding:
So much contradictory info on this subject. Its simple. What do they eat in the wild. Grass, weeds, leaves, flowers, and succulents. Feed them a huge variety of these things, and you'll have a healthy tortoise. All of these species are very adaptable when it comes to diet and there is a very large margin of error, and many ways to do it right. What if you don't have this sort of "natural" tortoise food available for part of each year because you are in the snow? You will have no choice but to buy grocery store food. What's wrong with grocery store food? It tends to lack fiber, some items are low in calcium or have a poor calcium to phosphorous ratio, and some items have deleterious compounds in them. All of these short comings can be improved with some simple supplementation and amendments. A pinch of calcium two times per week will help fix that problem. You can also leave cuttle bone in the enclosure, so your tortoise can self-regulate its own calcium intake. What about fiber? Soaked horse hay pellets, soaked ZooMed Grassland pellets, Mazuri tortoise chow, "Salad style", "Herbal Hay" both from @TylerStewart and his lovely wife Sarah at Tortoisesupply.com, or many of the dried plants and leaves available from Will @Kapidolo Farms. If you must use grocery store foods, favor endive and escarole as your main staples. Add in arugula, cilantro, kale, collard, mustard and turnip greens, squash leaves, spring mix, romaine, green or red leaf lettuce, butter lettuce, water cress, carrot tops, celery tops, bok choy, and whatever other greens you can find. If you mix in some of the aforementioned amendments, these grocery store foods will offer plants of variety and fiber and be able to meet your tortoises nutritional needs just fine. I find it preferable to grab a few grapevine or mulberry leaves, or a handful of mallow and clover, or some broadleaf plantain leaves and some grass, but with the right additions, grocery store stuff is fine too. Grow your own stuff, or find it around you when possible. Tyler and Sarah also sell a fantastic Testudo seed mix that is great for ALL tortoise species and also super easy to grow in pots, trays, raised garden beds, or in outdoor tortoise enclosures. When that isn't possible, add a wide variety of good stuff to your grocery store greens to make them better.

Supplements:
I recommend you keep cuttle bone available all the time. Some never use it and some munch on it regularly. Some of mine will go months without touching it, and then suddenly eat the whole thing in a day or two. A great diet is paramount, but it is still a good idea to give them some extra calcium regularly. I use a tiny pinch of RepCal or ZooMed plain old calcium carbonate twice a week. Much discussion has been given to whether or not they need D3 in their calcium supplement. Personally, I don't think it matters. Every tortoise should be getting adequate UV exposure one way or another, so they should be able to make their own D3. I also like to use a mineral supplement. "MinerAll" is my current brand of choice. It seems to help those tortoises that like to swallow pebbles and rocks. It is speculated that some tortoise eat rocks or substrate due to a mineral deficiency or imbalance. Whatever the reason, "MinerAll" seems to stop it or prevent it. Finally, I like to use a reptile vitamin supplement once a week, to round out any hidden deficiencies that may be in my diet over the course of a year.


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## AZGirl (Jul 30, 2020)

Tom,
Thank You for that comprehensive answer!! That is what I was looking for! Those websites will be a great deal of help to me.... as I have not been able to find in local ‘pet’ stores with the kinds of things I need, am not expert in identifying native weeds and grasses (although I’m getting better). Having a cpl recommendations for online supplies, to me, is better than just picking one that pops up in a search. Awesome!

I do add calcium powder to Parker's food abt 3 times a week and This gives me a much better idea of how to get this guy on a better diet w the variety of store bought veggies and the supplement items you specifically listed. This is his 3rd summer with me,, he is only 5, so I am still learning.


Again, thank you for your time in such an informative answer! Much appreciated. ????

Dee


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## DesertGirl (Jul 31, 2020)

AZGirl said:


> Tom,
> Thank You for that comprehensive answer!! That is what I was looking for! Those websites will be a great deal of help to me.... as I have not been able to find in local ‘pet’ stores with the kinds of things I need, am not expert in identifying native weeds and grasses (although I’m getting better). Having a cpl recommendations for online supplies, to me, is better than just picking one that pops up in a search. Awesome!
> 
> I do add calcium powder to Parker's food abt 3 times a week and This gives me a much better idea of how to get this guy on a better diet w the variety of store bought veggies and the supplement items you specifically listed. This is his 3rd summer with me,, he is only 5, so I am still learning.
> ...


Welcome. We have a Sonoran DT also. Ms Shell sends her regards from her backyard pool.


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## AZGirl (Jul 31, 2020)

DesertGirl said:


> Welcome. We have a Sonoran DT also. Ms Shell sends her regards from her backyard pool.


Awww, she’s cute. Hard to tell how big (old) she is by pic. Pretty long front leg. Does she stay year round outdoors? I would assume so in LV.
Looks like she has a really nice setup.?


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## AZGirl (Jul 31, 2020)

Tom said:


> That is urates. Urates are formed when things are too dry. Eventually, with longer term dehydration, these can form into bladder stones that eventually kill the tortoise, or require a horribly invasive surgery to remove.
> 
> They can be prevented by upping the hydration. Soak more often and longer, make a puddle in the yard with a hose (run it for 30-60 seconds first), and spraying water on the food before feeding it to the tortoise. Also, do you feed opuntia to your tortoise? You should and this is another good way to get some hydration into them.


Thanks again. As far as what I call Prickly Pear cactus (opuntia), no. Which parts do they eat? Pads, fruit or both? I can prob find some of that in lower areas around my high desert... I assunpme I pick of the spines?


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## DesertGirl (Jul 31, 2020)

AZGirl said:


> Awww, she’s cute. Hard to tell how big (old) she is by pic. Pretty long front leg. Does she stay year round outdoors? I would assume so in LV.
> Looks like she has a really nice setup.?


Thanks! We think she’s pretty special. She’s outside most days and enjoys cooling dips in her pool. My husband is retired and dotes on her shamelessly! Our vet and we think she’s about 10 yo. In 2017, she walked up our driveway and stared up at us. No fear. I instantly knew she wasn’t wild. She was spotless, too clean. Her feet had never touched dirt. We tried to find her ppl, but never did. She’s a precious member of our little family. I’d love to see some pics of yours.


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## DesertGirl (Jul 31, 2020)

AZGirl said:


> Thanks again. As far as what I call Prickly Pear cactus (opuntia), no. Which parts do they eat? Pads, fruit or both? I can prob find some of that in lower areas around my high desert... I assunpme I pick of the spines?


Find a Mexican grocery store. You can buy individual pads right there in the produce section. Last one I got was $0.65.


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## Tom (Jul 31, 2020)

AZGirl said:


> Thanks again. As far as what I call Prickly Pear cactus (opuntia), no. Which parts do they eat? Pads, fruit or both? I can prob find some of that in lower areas around my high desert... I assunpme I pick of the spines?


You want to find spineless opuntia. They can eat some of the fruit occasionally, but mostly the pads. There are probably many varieties of the spineless version near you in AZ. I see them all over the place there.

Sometimes the spineless versions will have tiny little spines or those little annoying micro spines called glochids. Your tortoise can just eat those whole with no fuss and no muss from you. For some reason those little spines don't bother their mouths at all.


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## Lokkje (Jul 31, 2020)

Well I feel so stupid because I am always removing them for my tortoises and getting them all over in my fingers. I have a prickly pear in my front yard but it is in spineless and I shave off all of the spines when I’m prepping it but it’s much easier to just buy pads at the local Food City


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## Tom (Jul 31, 2020)

Lokkje said:


> Well I feel so stupid because I am always removing them for my tortoises and getting them all over in my fingers. I have a prickly pear in my front yard but it is in spineless and I shave off all of the spines when I’m prepping it but it’s much easier to just buy pads at the local Food City


Well then I'm stupid too because I used to remove the spines and glochids for years too. Then I saw video of a wild radiata eating fully spined and obviously non-native opuntia pads, as well as previously viewed video of CA desert tortoises eating fully spined pads, and that convinced me that I didn't need to worry about a few tiny lethal spines of glochids. It has zero effect on the tortoises, but those things drive us crazy. I pulled out at least a dozen of them today.


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## DesertGirl (Jul 31, 2020)

AZGirl said:


> Awww, she’s cute. Hard to tell how big (old) she is by pic. Pretty long front leg. Does she stay year round outdoors? I would assume so in LV.
> Looks like she has a really nice setup.?





Tom said:


> Well then I'm stupid too because I used to remove the spines and glochids for years too. Then I saw video of a wild radiata eating fully spined and obviously non-native opuntia pads, as well as previously viewed video of CA desert tortoises eating fully spined pads, and that convinced me that I didn't need to worry about a few tiny lethal spines of glochids. It has zero effect on the tortoises, but those things drive us crazy. I pulled out at least a dozen of them today.


I still trim mine real good even though I’ve taken video of wild ones eating them without hesitation or harm. I’m just too protective of my baby. Why take a chance with a spine going down the wrong way round? ?


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## bioteach (Aug 2, 2020)

AZGirl said:


> Parker, my Sonoran Desert Tortoise just peed about 1/4 cup of what looked like milk. Have only caught him peeing that much a cpl times, he was scared. But, it was clear.
> 
> , I had just finished soaking him abt 15 min and moved him to eat. Came to check and it looked like spilled milk! He was eating.
> should I be concerned??.
> ...


It was probably a nitrogen dump! Oftentimes it looks more like cottage cheese and it is indeed perfectly normal.


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