# Egg Monitor - Heart Rate Monitor - Ultrasound - Doppler, etc....



## Sterant (Nov 9, 2020)

Hi all,
For the work I am doing with Chersina, I would like to sense and track embryonic heart rates. Does anyone have any experience with egg monitors of any type? I have found, but have never used one called "Egg Buddy" out of the UK. Its a small device that you put an egg in and it displays the heart rate. That's fine but I would rather have a hand held unit so I don't have to move the eggs so much.

Anyone have any experience with anything in this realm?

Thanks,

Dan


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## Tom (Nov 9, 2020)

@Markw84 does.

@Olddog might wish to comment too.

If you buy one be sure it is calibrated for reptiles and not birds.


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## Sterant (Nov 9, 2020)

I had another Chersina egg go beyond 135 days of incubation. The last one died in the shell at about 140 days so I decided from then on I would crack eggs open at 136 days. I did that last week and it worked. Tortoise was fully developed and it is doing well. Thinking I might be able to tune that timing if I can monitor heart rate.


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## Tom (Nov 9, 2020)

Sterant said:


> I had another Chersina egg go beyond 135 days of incubation. The last one died in the shell at about 140 days so I decided from then on I would crack eggs open at 136 days. I did that last week and it worked. Tortoise was fully developed and it is doing well. Thinking I might be able to tune that timing if I can monitor heart rate.


I completely agree with you. The two I notified above can advise you on this better than anyone I know.


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## turtlesteve (Nov 9, 2020)

Cool idea. You might also talk to @shellfreak, as I think I remember him knowing when eggs are due to hatch (and able to be moved or shipped) by monitoring the size of the internal air sac. Would be very interesting to hear what you learn.


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## Markw84 (Nov 10, 2020)

I have the Egg Buddy. It is very easy to use and does indeed give a good reading of heart rate in the egg once the egg has developed enough. I do like to disturb the egg as little as possible, so I like to rely on candling during the first 1/2 of incubation at least and then use the egg buddy to check once the egg starts getting opaque to where you can't tell by candling.

You do indeed need to be sure to order one that is calibrated for reptiles as Avitronics makes them for birds. So the one you will normally get when ordering is not going to work. They have to calibrate and set the unit for tortoises. There will actually be a picture of a tortoise on the monitor screen for those calibrated for tortoises. One calibrated for birds will not work for tortoise eggs.

I have used it with G platynota, C sulcata, and C porteri eggs. There was actually one C porteri egg that I did catch that was having trouble and needed help out of an extremely hard egg.

I think it a very worthwhile investment and would work great for exactly what you are trying to do.

@shellfreak does use air sac size via candling to judge when to ship. But I don't think that is going to tell you if the baby inside is in distress as once the egg turns more opaque and settles with a larger air sac on top, it is a sign of being close to hatching. The air sac will progressively shrink as the baby's final development gains its size until it pips. However that can take a variable amount of time in some cases. The egg monitor let me know the baby is still doing well and has a good heart rate. Monitoring that heart rate and looking for changes is a much better indicator of how things are going in my opinion.


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## turtlesteve (Nov 10, 2020)

Mark, for the egg that needed help, what was the specific change that you detected? Heart rate lower, higher, inconsistent?

In my first successful clutch (redfoot), one was unable to pip and died in the egg with a fully absorbed yolk sac. The female continues to lay very hard and thick eggs so I suspect I will face this again.


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## Markw84 (Nov 10, 2020)

turtlesteve said:


> Mark, for the egg that needed help, what was the specific change that you detected? Heart rate lower, higher, inconsistent?
> 
> In my first successful clutch (redfoot), one was unable to pip and died in the egg with a fully absorbed yolk sac. The female continues to lay very hard and thick eggs so I suspect I will face this again.


Heart rate drops and lower than previous readings plus overdue time-wise from expected. It did have a higher heart rate the day before - so maybe distressed then? The heart rates normally are consistent the last month or so of incubation. For Galaps in the 55-70 range. Same for platynota but higher for sulcatas. But still fairly consistent in their range. 

Clutchmates had hatched several days earlier. Egg looked as far along as others. Once heart rate drops, I don't think you have too long to save it.

It was a hard decision as I really don't like to mess with eggs and help hatching, but I think I did save this one. A previous one from another clutch did die in the egg fully developed, and a much harder eggshell. So I was very watchful and wary of possible problems when this began to unfold. At first opened it up just enough to see the baby and be sure it was able to breathe with the egg now open. 2 days later I still had to help open enough of the egg to allow it to get out if it wanted, but left the baby in the egg. Did not want to disturb any of the yolk sac area. Galaps tend to hatch by spinning and working their legs to open a band around the egg horizontally, leaving the top and bottom pretty much intact. They normally take much longer to get out of the egg than any other species I have worked with or heard of. This one made absolutely no progress getting the eggshell to open on its own.

So I guess the answer to your question is - Everything pointed to this one very much overdue vs the rest of clutch and all external signs. The heart rate variations made the decision much easier.


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## Sterant (Nov 10, 2020)

Thanks @Markw84 et al. I will order one - though there website says they are not available right now. **coming soon**


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## Sterant (Nov 10, 2020)

Any idea what they are tuning when they calibrate for reptiles vs. birds?


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## Markw84 (Nov 10, 2020)

Sterant said:


> Any idea what they are tuning when they calibrate for reptiles vs. birds?


I do not. However I would assume it would have to do with the much slower rates with tortoises vs birds. Perhaps to get accurate readings they need to adjust to looking for heart rates I. The 40-80 range instead of 150-300+ with birds


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## Olddog (Nov 10, 2020)

Sterant said:


> Any idea what they are tuning when they calibrate for reptiles vs. birds?



I have one of the original Egg Buddy's from many years ago which was unsatisfactory with bigger tortoise eggs. The original unit had one light source and was programmed for too high of a rate for reptile embryonic distress. After discussions with Jim at Avitronics, I sent it back to the UK for a possible tuneup. The older unit could not be updated but they provided me with an updated model with three light sources and at my request, programmed the rate at a minimum of two beats per minute. This and shipment from the UK took considerable time. I purchased an ac adapter as well.

To use the unit, it is necessary to position the egg on a plastic washer in the device. It can be used in earlier incubation but the eggs may have to be rotated which I am opposed to doing ( but did in early testing after the first month). Some of my eggs were too large to fit in the chamber with the top closed and I would have to be in a dark room to get a good reading. 

In practicality, I utilize same in the latter parts of incubation when the egg is too dense for candling. Infrared light is transmitted into the egg and is read by a photodiode, the signal being processed and turned into a waveform and rate. For slow rates the sine waves (or portions thereof) are counted with a watch.

In humans we monitor fetal heart rates which are often in the 130- 160 bpm range. SIgnificant slowing suggests fetal distress and emergency measures may be called for. I have assisted baby parrots in hatching in the distant past, often a result of improper humidity and water loss during incubation. I have been very conservative in intervening with tortoises as I could not see or monitor the hatching process. After watching an Aldabra die in hatching with an abnormally low rate (in comparison to clutchmates), I have become more aggressive. Attached please find a link to my extensive series of one intervention in which there was an abnormally thick shell. Am ashamed of the photography but put together to share with Galap friends. I had been monitoring the heart rates of this hatchling and clutchmates and the video hatchling's rate had dropped significantly.

Ultrasonic rate monitoring does not work due to the rigid shell. I have tried one of the Bluetooth IR pulse sensors designed for joggers directly on the tops or side of eggs with no detectable pulse. Had been working on another system that can be laid on the top of the egg as another IR reading device but ran out of time when COVID19 hit the area. Believe the Avitronics unit is better.

Have had no problems moving egg from incubator to scale to Egg Buddy during the later part of incubation. Could put the unit in the incubator to read rate but in and out of incubator relatively fast in any case. Sometimes the slope of the wave form is useful.

Video probably best watched in HD mode.


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## Sterant (Nov 11, 2020)

Great video @Olddog - Thanks for the detailed description. I just ordered a "Reptile Buddy". Chersina eggs are occasionally very thick - I am hoping I do can exactly what you did and be alerted when the tortoise can't escape the egg. Any idea how much time the tortoise has between when its heart rate starts to drop and death?


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## Olddog (Nov 11, 2020)

Sterant said:


> Great video @Olddog - Thanks for the detailed description. I just ordered a "Reptile Buddy". Chersina eggs are occasionally very thick - I am hoping I do can exactly what you did and be alerted when the tortoise can't escape the egg. Any idea how much time the tortoise has between when its heart rate starts to drop and death?



Please understand I am a backyard breeder and have only used this updated technology on about 50 hatchlings this past season so my experience is limited. I also am at work on a somewhat irregular schedule worsened with COVID19 and do not see the eggs daily or at times even every other day. Mark Wilson has probably studied this more closely on a daily basis than I, as my observations have been hit or miss based on work obligations. Mark is familiar with a number of species and my observations are limited to Galaps and Aldabras, mostly Galaps. Please take these comments as observations based on studies in progress on low numbers. Mark may have additional perspectives to share.

I'm not certain intervention based on incubation time is appropriate for Galaps. Last season we had one egg hatch some 4 weeks after its clutchmates in the same incubator container. For whatever reason, it failed to initiate development at the same time as its clutchmates. Intervention based on its incubtion time would have been a mistake. This is not the first time this has happened, resulting in me keeping apparently clear eggs around longer than I should. This egg was not in the group on which I was keeping records on incubation weights and rates.

In my limited experience, there is quite a bit of variability in heart rates (R) between clutchmates in the same box at the same temperature, even varying slightly at different times of the same day. Generally, the R is higher at higher incubation temperatures. The rate is lower when incubated for male initially although water loss may be greater as compared to those incubated 1.5 degrees C higher. I do not know if individual tortoises in a box somehow adjust their R to accommodate simultaneous hatches. Sometimes eggs put in an incubator container along with eggs that are further along in incubation appear to compensate such that all in the container hatch at about the same time. This is not universally true. Different clutches (from different dams) incubated on the same shelf at the same temperature and humidity and incubated about the same time may average different heart rates. There is high variability in the length of the hatching process, some taking several days and apparently absorbing the yolk sac. In short, there is much I do not know and limited data so consider the source. 

That said, if you know the heart rate (R) an egg has been running at that temperature and you know what R peers in the incubator container are running, you are more alert to a dropping rate. Some will drop their R somewhat in the piping and hatching process with no adverse effects. Perhaps they are just resting during the process. It appears a little drop in R is not an issue. A significant drop, coupled with a failure of progression of the hatching process, IMHO suggests high mortality without intervention. In the case of the Aldabra egg which failed to progress when clutchmates were hatching, the rate dropped over a period of about 4 days (part of which I was not present) and eventually had no detectable rate. At post there was a perfectly formed hatching in the egg. 

On the 20-31 Galap in the video, the pipping R was initially somewhat lower than expected from peers but not alarmingly so. The egg was observed and the rate further slowed over a day or so. Perhaps the hatchling tired after lack of progress in breaking out of the heavily calcified shell. In any case, after assistance, the rate promptly climbed. The hatchling, incubated for female, does have a split 1st vertebral scute suggesting I may have incubated her too warm when I raised the incubator temperatures. As of 11/7 she was 373 grams suggesting no difficulties with her appetite.

I have found I could sometimes measure the hatchling's rate if the yolk sac was still present and I could center it over the photodiode. No joy once the yolk sac is absorbed and plastron closed. Hatching rates are still elevated. Do not know when they drop to adult rates.

Hope this is of some assistance.


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## NorCal tortoise guy (Nov 11, 2020)

Sterant said:


> Great video @Olddog - Thanks for the detailed description. I just ordered a "Reptile Buddy". Chersina eggs are occasionally very thick - I am hoping I do can exactly what you did and be alerted when the tortoise can't escape the egg. Any idea how much time the tortoise has between when its heart rate starts to drop and death?


Can I ask where you ordered it. I only seem to find out of stock bird ones.


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## Sterant (Nov 11, 2020)

Olddog said:


> Please understand I am a backyard breeder and have only used this updated technology on about 50 hatchlings this past season so my experience is limited. I also am at work on a somewhat irregular schedule worsened with COVID19 and do not see the eggs daily or at times even every other day. Mark Wilson has probably studied this more closely on a daily basis than I, as my observations have been hit or miss based on work obligations. Mark is familiar with a number of species and my observations are limited to Galaps and Aldabras, mostly Galaps. Please take these comments as observations based on studies in progress on low numbers. Mark may have additional perspectives to share.
> 
> I'm not certain intervention based on incubation time is appropriate for Galaps. Last season we had one egg hatch some 4 weeks after its clutchmates in the same incubator container. For whatever reason, it failed to initiate development at the same time as its clutchmates. Intervention based on its incubtion time would have been a mistake. This is not the first time this has happened, resulting in me keeping apparently clear eggs around longer than I should. This egg was not in the group on which I was keeping records on incubation weights and rates.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that @Olddog . Chersina also have a wildly variable incubation duration in the wild as they nest all year long (with a 2 month break in the summer heat) and all of the eggs hatch in late March / early April. Chersina have also been known to retain eggs internally while development starts - thereby nesting within a week or two of the baby pipping. This is another amazing aspect of Chersina which I would love to study more. I have produced 50 eggs in the past 3 years but none of them have had any sign of development at the time of nesting. In captivity, mine have all hatched between 125 and 135 days of incubation. So for me this will all come down to eggs that get to 135 days and haven't hatched. Hopefully by monitoring the HR, I can give the embryo as much time as possible to escape naturally but be warned if it becomes distressed. I won't have clutch mates to compare as they generally lay 1 egg at a time...though one of my females has double clutched twice in the past 3 years.
I have always felt that every tortoise keeper should own an infrared heat gun and a Solarmeter. The only way to really know! Perhaps the Egg Buddy will provide that extra bit of knowledge that will net us a few more of these fantastic tortoises in the US.


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## Sterant (Nov 11, 2020)

NorCal tortoise guy said:


> Can I ask where you ordered it. I only seem to find out of stock bird ones.


I lucked out and found a guy that had a reptile buddy - let me ask if he has anymore. I will let you know.


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## Markw84 (Nov 11, 2020)

NorCal tortoise guy said:


> Can I ask where you ordered it. I only seem to find out of stock bird ones.


Aaron

I ordered mine from Mikes falconry. He’s up in Oregon and it turns out he also knows Tom quite well. Very nice guy and he had to special order mine as he does not stock the reptile one. This was during the midst of the COVID shipping issues internationally so it was easier for me to have Mike order it for me

You could check with him.


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## Tom (Nov 12, 2020)

Markw84 said:


> Aaron
> 
> I ordered mine from Mikes falconry. He’s up in Oregon and it turns out he also knows Tom quite well. Very nice guy and he had to special order mine as he does not stock the reptile one. This was during the midst of the COVID shipping issues internationally so it was easier for me to have Mike order it for me
> 
> You could check with him.


I call him Uncle Mike. He's been very helpful and kind to a new falconer. Mile's son also helps with the business and he was also very nice to a new guy. Good people and I order most of my falconry supplies from them. I only buy from someone else if its an item that Mike doesn't offer for sale. Mike gave me the name and number of the breeder that I bought my Harris hawks from.


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## Olddog (Nov 12, 2020)

Sterant said:


> Thanks for that @Olddog . Chersina also have a wildly variable incubation duration in the wild as they nest all year long (with a 2 month break in the summer heat) and all of the eggs hatch in late March / early April. Chersina have also been known to retain eggs internally while development starts - thereby nesting within a week or two of the baby pipping. This is another amazing aspect of Chersina which I would love to study more. I have produced 50 eggs in the past 3 years but none of them have had any sign of development at the time of nesting. In captivity, mine have all hatched between 125 and 135 days of incubation. So for me this will all come down to eggs that get to 135 days and haven't hatched. Hopefully by monitoring the HR, I can give the embryo as much time as possible to escape naturally but be warned if it becomes distressed. I won't have clutch mates to compare as they generally lay 1 egg at a time...though one of my females has double clutched twice in the past 3 years.
> I have always felt that every tortoise keeper should own an infrared heat gun and a Solarmeter. The only way to really know! Perhaps the Egg Buddy will provide that extra bit of knowledge that will net us a few more of these fantastic tortoises in the US.



I would think measuring the heart rate would be helpful in your work with Chersina. Once you establish a baseline rate for an individual hatchling, you will be better able to detect possible hatchling distress.

Perhaps a gram scale to measure egg water loss during incubation will become a helpful piece of equipment as well.


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## Sterant (Nov 13, 2020)

@NorCal tortoise guy 

Aaron - The guy I was getting mine from went dark on me (ebay) so I reached out directly to Jim at Avitronics and he has a couple "Reptile Buddies" available. The website still says "Coming Soon" but he had a couple so reach out to him at [email protected]

Dan


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## Sterant (Nov 13, 2020)

Olddog said:


> I would think measuring the heart rate would be helpful in your work with Chersina. Once you establish a baseline rate for an individual hatchling, you will be better able to detect possible hatchling distress.
> 
> Perhaps a gram scale to measure egg water loss during incubation will become a helpful piece of equipment as well.


That's a good idea too. I don't weigh the eggs at intervals during incubation but I will try that as well.


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