# Substrate ideas requested- towards a 'perfect' mix



## Madkins007

What substrates do you use for what kind of tortoise and situation? I am wondering if we could come up with a shortish list of options that we can recommend by situation. (Young red-footed? Try this or this. Big indoor space? Try this or this for these reasons).

Here is the thing, and why I listed it as an advanced topic- the most useful info will come from those of us who did *a lot of trial and error*, and are sure that we have a good mix for their situation.

For example, for my young red-footeds here in Omaha, I tried the sphagnum moss, various dirt mixes, etc. and settled on two that worked very well for me in all ways- cypress mulch and the bioactive substrate mix. The mulch is cheaper and lighter in weight, while the bioactive is not very effective in smaller spaces and takes a little more attention (like a compost pile).

Hopefully, we can come up with a series of good recommendations. 

In a future effort, I hope to do a 'pros and cons' sticky of common recommendations so when someone asks that same substrate question over again, we can point them to these two posts.


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## tortadise

I have tried quite a few mixtures in the past. Issues I had with mixing dirt, top soil, compost soil, and humus soil, with either orchid bark, cypress mulch, eucalyptus mulch, or even hard wood mulch. is the sole weight ratio. Especially for humid faring species. These dirts all get very very heavy once they soak up and stabilize with high humidity.

Now coco coir is a great very light weight substrate that even when wet holds a very dense and lightweight characteristic I have found. Sphagnum moss is another one that works really good. All these I have and do mix with any of the above mulches or bark and have had no clean-up problems or very saturated and heavy like dealings with moisture absorbing into it too much.


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## FLINTUS

After a fair bit of experimenting I now use, orchid bark, moss, leaflitter and soil(about 10%, 45%, 15%, 30%) . This is for juvie/sub adult reds here in Wiltshire, England-indoors. Outside I let them on the normal grass and soil area with added stones and in parts I've added leaflitter and moss. The moss I use is a combination of sphagnum moss and normal woodland moss-the first I use where it keeps naturally wet anyway, the second I use in drier areas as it seems to resist the drying out of heat lamps more-this is the problem I find with most mosses so now I mainly get the stuff from the woods-it might be worth mentioning, that I collect all my substrate rather than buy, don't clean it much-a quick rinse- so there are plenty of little bugs in there


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## Yvonne G

Maybe the batch I bought was "defective," but I didn't like Bed-A-Beast at all!!!! There were so many people here on the Forum saying how good it was, that I had to try it. I didn't like the fact that there was always strings hanging out of my babies' mouths or cloacas. Coconut husk strings. I know these are not a hazard and are biodegradable, but I didn't like them hanging out of my babies. Plus the coco coir was tracked all over the food and into the water.

These are what I use:

Baby box turtles: a mixture of clean dirt from the yard and fine/small orchid bark. I like this for the box turtles because they can dig down into it and be totally covered. You can keep it very wet and it doesn't sour or mold. It is light enough that it doesn't get soggy, but over time will dry out.

Baby/young desert tortoises: fine/small orchid bark all by itself. The pieces are small enough for ease of walking by the tortoise. You can moisten it and it doesn't sour or get moldy. It smells clean and is easy to keep clean. It isn't toxic and if your tortoise is well-hydrated doesn't cause impaction.

Mid-sized (fostor) redfooted tortoises: These two tortoises live outside during good weather, but for cold weather the come in and live in either orchid bark or cypress mulch. The orchid bark is easier for me to buy in large bags, while the cypress mulch can only be found here in my area in small bags at the pet stores. I really like cypress mulch, however it isn't cost effective to buy the small bags. I keep the two tortoises on medium sized orchid bark that is kept fairly moist. They don't eat it, but if ingested isn't harmful. It doesn't sour or turn moldy.

Old School method not used anymore for desert tortoises and sulcatas: I used to buy 50lb bags of oat hay pellets (looked similar to alfalfa pellets) for substrate. I really liked this for substrate. It was clean and not toxic. The tortoises sometimes ate it but not usually. It was light-colored, and thus easy to see the droppings and dried food, so easy to clean. It smelled good. Bad thing about it was I couldn't keep a waterer in the habitat because spilled water always caused the pellets to swell and mold. Now that we know small tortoises require humidity or moist substrate, oat hay pellets is not longer a good choice...but I really liked using it.


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## Happy Tortoise

Mr T the rt my tort livened up a lot after I replaced his bedding with soil block i think it was coconut fiber with clean dirt. He used to live in dry wood chips and I think it was economically bad for me and environmentally bad for him. Dust everywhere, mold from non-absorbant wood chips, and dryness was a major problem...


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## mctlong

Great thread! Iâ€™ve tried several different substrates looking for the perfect one. I have a severe allergy to mold, so Iâ€™ve cycled through several different substrates looking for one that not only suits my tortsâ€™ needs, but also does not aggravate my sinuses. Below are the substrates Iâ€™ve tried and the experiences Iâ€™ve had with each:

Alfalfa Pellets - Alfalfa pellets are commonly recommended for indoor tortoise enclosures, the idea being that theyâ€™re edible and the tort wonâ€™t get sick if it eats the substrate. Seemed reasonable, so I tried them on the first tortoise I tried to keep indoors (a Russian). I used the pellets for less than a week before changing. I discontinued using the alfalfa pellets because: 1.)The pellets had a strong hay smell that overwhlemed the indoor space. 2.) my Russian, who loves to dig, could not burrow into the pellets. 3.) When dampened, the pellets swelled, changed color, and within days grow a thick, furry mold. 
*Cons*: 1) Strong smell, 2) Not good for burrowing, 3) Molds quickly when exposed to moisture. 
*Pros*: Edible. However, I would not recommend these as a substrate for a tort enclosure.

Reptibark - Reptibark is recommended by petstore employees and has been successfully used by other forum members. Based on these recommendations, I used it to replace the alfalfa pellets in my poor Russianâ€™s indoor enclosure. Reptibark has a decent smell and looks nice in a tortoise table. I stopped using this substrate because after a few weeks, the reptibark began to upset my allergies. It grew bacteria when exposed to moisture. The bacteria on the reptibark was far less pronounced than that seen on the alfalfa pellets. It did not grow furry. When exposed to moisture, the reptibark started developing whitish spots and a faint mildew smell. 
*Cons*: 1) Not good for burrowing, 2) Bacteria growth when exposed to moisture (however, the bacteria is far less apparent than the fuzzy mold growing on the alfalfa pellets).
*Pros*: 1) Unlikely to cause compaction, 2) Looks good in a tort table. 3.) However, because of the bacteria growth, I would not personally recommend this as a tort substrate.

Coco-Coir blocks - Iâ€™ve used coco-coir blocks for my russian, sulcatas, and stars. I liked this stuff. It was great for my burrowing Russian and did not appear to grow mold/bacteria when exposed to moisture. Sprouts also seems to grow really well in the stuff. I stopped using it for two reasons. First, it attracted gnats like crazy. I switched the stuff out multiple times before concluding that the gnat eggs were probably in the coir when I bought it. Secondly, I got a nest of termites in one of my outdoor enclosures. They were nesting in the coco-coir. I donâ€™t think they originated in the coir, but that was the last straw for me and Iâ€™ve never used the stuff again. 
*Cons*: At least one brand (bed-a-beast) can come infested with gnat eggs.
*Pros*: 1) Unlikely to cause compaction, 2) Smells good, 3) Great for burrowing species, such as Russians, 4) Great for both indoor and outdoor enclosures where you plan to grow sprouts.

Timothy Hay - I read somewhere that timothy hay on top of coco-coir works wells. It doesnâ€™t. The hay developed black spots and turned yellow fairly quickly after being exposed to the damp substrate indicating a bacterial growth. 
*Cons*: 1) Strong smell, 2) Grows bacteria very quickly when exposed to moisture
*Pros*: 1) Edible and healthy (when not growing bacteria), 2) Great for hiding. However, because of the bacterial growth, I would not recommend this as a substrate  for a tortoise enclosure (but it still makes a pretty darn good food for sulcatas and stars, IMO).

Organic Topsoil - I use some organic topsoil in all of my outdoor enclosures (russian, sulcatas, stars). Its similar to coco-coir in that its loosely packed, making it a nice substrate for torts who like to dig (especially Russians). I do not recommend using it for indoor enclosures because it has a strong, earthy smell that can overwhelm an indoor space. It contains lots of organic material, so it can potentially grow bacteria when wet. However, I havenâ€™t had any problems with bacterial growth on the topsoil. Sprouts tend to grow well in the topsoil. However, larger and more mature vegetation with established root systems donâ€™t do well in topsoil, preferring more compact, sandier loams (for me, thats backyard dirt).
*Cons*: Strong earthy small makes it unsuitable for indoor enclosures, can potentially grow bacteria (although Iâ€™ve never encountered this problem).
*Pros*: 1) Unlikely to cause compaction when eaten, 2) Does not seem to mold easily (although the potential for bacterial growth exists), 3) Great for sprout growth. 4) Great for outdoor enclosures. 5) Great for torts who like to burrow. 6) Affordable enough for buy for big outdoor enclosures.

Cypress Mulch
I love cypress mulch. It has a nice smell and it does not grow bacteria when damp. Its hard to grow vegetation in cypress much, although Iâ€™ve had luck growing stuff in it when mixed with topsoil. Cypress mulch is hard to dig through and not good for burrowing, so I wouldnâ€™t recommend it for Russians. I use it in the hides of my sulcatas and stars and I recommend it for these species. It works particularly well for hatchlings since it won't mold in a humid hatchling enclosure.
*Cons*: 1) Not easy to dig in, 2) Its hard to grow plants in cypress mulch
*Pros*: 1) Unlikely to cause compaction when eaten, 2) Does not grow bacteria when wet, 3) Looks good and smells good, making it a nice indoor substrate 4.) Good substrate for hides and in areas where you don't plan on growing vegetation. 5.) Great substrate for humid hatchling enclosures.

Dirt - God made dirt, so dirt donâ€™t hurt. Not necessarily true in all cases, but dirt is cheap, easily accessible, and is great for growing plants. Iâ€™ve used backyard dirt in outdoor enclosures for CDTs and sulcatas and have never had any serious issues with it.
*Cons*: 1) Heavy, 2) Can have a thick earthy smell making it unsuitable for indoor enclosures.
*Pros*: 1) Cheap, 2) Good growing medium 3.) Great for large, outdoor pens.

Thats my two cents on substrates -


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## Andrea M

I use blocks of coco coir for my 6 month old THB, it holds moisture well without being too wet, it also doesn't clump unlike the topsoil I started with. I have had the same batch in the table for 3 months now and all I have to do is 'fluff' it once a week. Hokie never struggles to get around on it and can completely bury himself when he goes to sleep. I find that plants grow well and despite the heat of the lamps never seem to dry out too much. I water the plants once a week and mist it once a day with a water sprayer.


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## Madkins007

Those of you who use and like coconut coir- what sort of situation are you in? (dry/humid, warm rooms/cool rooms, general size of habitat, etc.) I ask this because coir seems to have a lot of love/hate replies across the boards, so there must be some situations where is better than other situations.

Otherwise, there seems to be a lot of support for both hardwood chips (cypress, orchid bark) and soil mixes with 'a little of everything'. So, let me ask this- anyone have any bad experiences or reasons to not endorse these?

mct- I really like you reply. Any possibility we could massage it into a Library article?


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## Blakem

I am from central California and I use coco coir for my juvenile sulcata and my Russian tortoise. I have had really good luck with my coco coir. Humidity isn20-30% I believe on average. My room gets really cold in the winter (and I'm a really warm person) and pretty warm in the warmer months. I wouldn't say that I live in a dry area but it's definitely not humid. My russian is in a two story 3X3 and my juvenile sulcata has been (until recently) in a 100 gallon tank. I hope this answers what you wanted. 

When I pour water over the substrate, once a week or so, and mix it, it will stay very humid for me. I really enjoy it. 


Sulcata (Dexter)
Russian (Ezek)


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## Redstrike

Madkins007 said:


> Those of you who use and like coconut coir- what sort of situation are you in? (dry/humid, warm rooms/cool rooms, general size of habitat, etc.) I ask this because coir seems to have a lot of love/hate replies across the boards, so there must be some situations where is better than other situations.
> 
> Otherwise, there seems to be a lot of support for both hardwood chips (cypress, orchid bark) and soil mixes with 'a little of everything'. So, let me ask this- anyone have any bad experiences or reasons to not endorse these?
> 
> mct- I really like you reply. Any possibility we could massage it into a Library article?



I use mulches (cypress & hemlock depending on availability) and my only issue with them is the frequency of plastron rot developing on my redfoots. The only way to avoid this is to keep the top surface completely dry, but that is difficult to do within a fully enclosed table. As most of you may know, I run heat ropes under my substrate and recently I added a false bottom so that standing water could be heated beneath the substrate and really get things nice and humid (80-90%). This results in condensation on the glass of my enclosure, which inevitably drips back down on the surface of the substrate. This moisture results in repeated cases of minor rot forming.

My setup can be seen in the link of my signature, though I do need to update the changes I've made (false bottom, additional CHE's, etc.).

My case may be unique, but that's one recurring issue I've had with mulches (rot). This would likely be ameliorated with deeper substrate (5-6 inches vs. 4?) and some venting to allow some of the water vapor to escape. Winters in the northeast make venting unappealing (dry and cold!). 

For me, coco coir is impractical. I'd have to spend a lot of money to outfit a 4x3ft enclosure with 4 inches of that substrate since they sell it in 3-packs of compressed bricks. I tried some once and did not like the mess.


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## morloch

Try melluca, I think it's great, less mess! I mix it with cypress mulch.


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## mctlong

Madkins007 said:


> mct- I really like you reply. Any possibility we could massage it into a Library article?



No prob, I should be able to put something together this week.


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## GeoTerraTestudo

Madkins007 said:


> Those of you who use and like coconut coir- what sort of situation are you in? (dry/humid, warm rooms/cool rooms, general size of habitat, etc.) I ask this because coir seems to have a lot of love/hate replies across the boards, so there must be some situations where is better than other situations.
> 
> Otherwise, there seems to be a lot of support for both hardwood chips (cypress, orchid bark) and soil mixes with 'a little of everything'. So, let me ask this- anyone have any bad experiences or reasons to not endorse these?
> 
> mct- I really like you reply. Any possibility we could massage it into a Library article?



With my redfoot in Florida, I used pure coco coir when she was a baby, and then cypress mulch when she got older. The cypress mulch served its purpose, although it did get fungal gnats.

With my two Russians in Colorado, I tried soil for a while, but that become infested with fungi and flies. So, now I'm back to using coco coir, and I don't know why I ever stopped using it. I just love how well it holds moisture (better than cypress mulch, in my opinion), which is so important here in the High Plains, where ambient humidity can dip into the single digits. I also love how my Russians can dig in it (which they would not be able to do with cypress mulch). It's also easy to clean, and it resists pest infestations.

Every morning, I just dump out the water from their shallow water dishes right onto the substrate, fill the dish back up with fresh water, and then repeat the next day. This keeps the coco coir nice and moist, but not damp. The top few millimeters get drier and lighter in color pretty quickly, but the subsurface layers stay moist and dark, providing a humid microclimate for my Russians when they burrow into it.

I notice a lot of folks are concerned about coco coir getting into everything, but I don't worry about this. If it gets into the water dish, I just dump it right out onto the substrate: it's just more moisture for the pen. If it gets into the food, I can just shake or rinse it off in the dish. If I don't, the tortoises eat around it. And if they ingest some of it, it's harmless, and they might even be able to digest it to some degree.

So, to me, coco coir is the ideal substrate. Now I also have my nephew using it with his three-toed box turtle.


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## lisa127

For my boxies I use a pretty equal mix of coco coir and long fibred sphagnum moss. I agree that I don't understand why people are so concerned with the mess of coco coir. Nature is dirty. Box turtle habitat is dirty.


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## Balboa

Been keeping my redfoots on home mixed, bio active dirt for a long time (peat moss, dirt from the garden, sand, leaf litter, orchid bark and who knows what else has wound up mixed in over the years). It worked well while they were small, but between everything breaking down, me letting it go too long between "refreshings" and their increased weight keeping it compacted, it turned into a mucky, anaerobic mess.

Yesterday I did a nearly complete changeout to a new substrate. I'm trialing a 50/50 by volume blend of coco coir and some home made hardwood mulch I made from prunings in my own yard (apple, plum and silverbell trees). While I've tried mulches (cypress and orchid bark) and coco coir before, I never had mixed them together, and they do seem to work nicely as a mix. Its staying nice and spongy despite heavy torty traffic. Over time this will of course break back down into dirt, but supposedly coco coir lasts longer than peat moss.

What will be interesting to see is if plastron issues return with the coco coir. No matter how mucky things ever got on the bio-active dirt, they never had the rot.


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## Andrea M

I live in England, the central heating has been on since he arrived 5 months ago but goes off at night so temps are about 16C at night


His table is 3x2 but he's only just turned 7 months


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## Cowboy_Ken

So I use a 50/50 by volume organic top soil/organic peat moss. When mixing the two, I actively spray it down with water. Adding enough water that it clumps easily yet doesn't drip water when squeezed together. I use this mix in all my indoor enclosures from warm humid ones for babies, to dry ones for adults. I've never had any issue with mold growth or bug infestations due in part, I believe to the high acid level of the peat moss.


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## Madkins007

What mixes do we see what concerns with? Plastron issues, bugs, mold, etc.?


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## Balboa

Seems to me that anything organic will mold in humidity and limited airflow if its not "bio active". I remember the wife freaking out about the springtails showing up in the coco coir in her crested gecko enclosure. I laughed and told her not to worry, they were keeping it clean so it didn't mold. Bugs (visible and not quite so) are good.  Sorry if that's not really helping the discussion Mark lol


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