# Swollen eyes after hibernation



## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 25, 2012)

Hi guys,

My Russian tortoise pair has been hibernating in the same bin in the same fridge since November (almost four months), and I have been checking up on them at least once a week. This morning when I went to check on them, I saw that the surface of their substrate was disturbed. I took that to mean one or both of them was ready to emerge from hibernation, so I took them out.

I gave them both a warm bath, and put them back in their regular enclosures. Both were groggy, of course, but the female seemed bright-eyed and fine. For the male, however, both eyes were swollen shut with a layer of whitish material over them. He rubbed his eyes and the white matter fell away, but both eyes are still swollen shut, and I am concerned.

Both tortoises were nice and plump before going into hibernation. Their fridge maintained a temperature of 40+/-2*F all winter long, and I misted their hibernaculum at least once per week. So, I would not have expected eye problems, because the tortoises should not have experienced frost, dehydration, or starvation. Nevertheless, when I picked them up, they seemed quite light to me.

Do you think this means my tortoises are dehydrated, starving, or both? Could the male could have suffered frost damage to his eyes, and that he might have been blinded? Or is this something common that he will simply come out of soon?

I was planning to continue giving them daily warm water baths, and to start offering them food tomorrow. Does this sound good? Is there anything else I should be doing, especially for the male with the swollen eyes? Please advise, as I am a bit worried about him.


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## Laura (Feb 25, 2012)

-2'????!


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## Katherine (Feb 25, 2012)

Laura said:


> -2'????!



I am quite certain he meant + or - 2* as in 2 degrees of variance, so from 38-42* maximum range. No one in their right mind would hibernate at negative 2* degrees : )

I am so sorry to read this, hope he recovers well. Unfortunately I have no experience with this so can't do anything but wish you and your little one the best!


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 25, 2012)

katherine said:


> Laura said:
> 
> 
> > -2'????!
> ...



Correct: I hibernated them at 38-42*F.

Thanks, Katherine. Hopefully he's just groggy, or only a little dehydrated. We'll see what others say, but I hope he'll be feeling better real soon.


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## Yvonne G (Feb 25, 2012)

Time for the hospital tank. Place him in a smaller indoor habitat with a constant overall temp of 80+ degrees. Soak him daily for at least 15 minutes in Gerber strained carrots mixed half and half with warm water. You should see an improvement in about 3 days.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 25, 2012)

emysemys said:


> Time for the hospital tank. Place him in a smaller indoor habitat with a constant overall temp of 80+ degrees. Soak him daily for at least 15 minutes in Gerber strained carrots mixed half and half with warm water. You should see an improvement in about 3 days.



Okay, I'll do that. Sounds like you've seen this before. What is wrong, exactly?


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## dmmj (Feb 25, 2012)

I think you have said before that your russians don't seem to bruminate well for some reason. My russians are starting to wake up, but I fear this is only a brief warm spell here in california.They more than likely expended energy and lost weight during the winter time. I just checked on my guys today and I did not notice any discernible weight loss, despite this winter being warmer than usual. I would imagine they are both hungry and thirsty if you plan on keeping them up for now, I would start feeding and soaking them, if you plan on putting them back down, warm soaks can't hurt. I often soak mine during the winter time on warmer days.


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## Yvonne G (Feb 25, 2012)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> Okay, I'll do that. Sounds like you've seen this before. What is wrong, exactly?



I don't think he was all the way into the brumation state. So it was like he was not eating for all that time. The swollen eyes usually is a lack of vitamin A and that's from not eating. Of course, swollen eyes can also be a symptom of other illnesses, the one I told you about is just the most common.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 25, 2012)

dmmj said:


> I think you have said before that your russians don't seem to bruminate well for some reason. My russians are starting to wake up, but I fear this is only a brief warm spell here in california.They more than likely expended energy and lost weight during the winter time. I just checked on my guys today and I did not notice any discernible weight loss, despite this winter being warmer than usual. I would imagine they are both hungry and thirsty if you plan on keeping them up for now, I would start feeding and soaking them, if you plan on putting them back down, warm soaks can't hurt. I often soak mine during the winter time on warmer days.



What I said was that, back in November, they were trying to brumate in their regular indoor enclosures at room temperature. I would have overwintered them, but they burrowed and were fasting, so that's why I put them in the refrigerator.

Yes, I'm just going to keep them up at this point. Nearly 4 months of brumation should be plenty.

Okay, so I'll give them warm soaks and food. I hope poor little Mork is okay. 



emysemys said:


> GeoTerraTestudo said:
> 
> 
> > Okay, I'll do that. Sounds like you've seen this before. What is wrong, exactly?
> ...



I see. Oh my gosh. 

Okay, I've seen that eye problem in box turtles. I would think Vitamin A eye drops would be good to use, too?


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 25, 2012)

Why would one of them be in a deeper state of brumation than the other, if they were both in the same box in the same refrigerator?


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 26, 2012)

I gave Mork a carrot bath this morning; I have never seen a tortoise drink that much in my life. I set him down in the bath and watched him. He seemed to appreciate the warmth and the moisture. Then he dipped his chin below the surface and drank for probably about 2 straight minutes. Poor little guy must be so dehydrated. He did open his eyes for a bit, although they're shut again now. Hopefully he'll improve more tomorrow.


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## ascott (Feb 26, 2012)

Geo...sounds as though your one with the eye situation may have had one of those hidden ailments likely prior to going into brumation......

I would follow what Yvonne has suggested. And they should take a really long drink coming out of brumation...I would not necessarily take that as a sign of high level of dehydration though...I have a CDT here, the old man, that sinks his head all the time and drinks forever and another of them drinks like he is a submarine and they are both good pee'rs and poppers as well....

The first thing that came to mind reading your posts was...I wonder if that one cooled down at a much more rapid rate? The other tortoise may have been warmer going into the fridge than the other...do you do a gradual fridge cool down or do you set the fridge temp and then just place them in? A rapid drop in temps could and does matter...the eyes are the most sensitive tissue you know?

So I would follow what Yvonne gave and keep that going for at least a week or ten days--even when he comes around I would make sure to do this for 10 days...also it would not hurt to offer the same treatment to the other tortoise . 



Are you able to post a pic? Will you please?


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## Yvonne G (Feb 26, 2012)

You don't really know how much they're drinking by how long they're drinking. If you watch the throat you can see them swallow, and it sometimes is about 5 or 6 seconds between gulps. They drink very slowly. I'm very glad that he drank the mixture. That means he will be getting the benefit of the nutrients much faster than if he didn't drink it.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 27, 2012)

To prepare them for hibernation, I let them fast for two weeks with the basking CHE off. So, ambient air temperature was about 70*F throughout their pens at that point, without any hot spot (they had been burrowed and fasting on their own for several weeks prior to that, even with the hot spot on). Then, when it was time to put them in the fridge, I kept the fridge on its minimal ("defrost") setting for a couple days, so their temperature at that point was about 50*F. Then, I toned it down to its first setting, arriving at its final temperature of about 40*F.

Even though the female's eyes are clear, and she is feeding normally, I have still been treating her as if her eyes are swollen. That way, if the problem is indeed hypovitaminosis A, and the treatment is helping the male, it certainly wouldn't hurt her to get a little more warmth, moisture, and vitamins in her, either - especially after hibernation. As it turns out, I have seen a little bit of discharge coming out of her right eye, too, so she might also be a bit vitamin A deficient, although to a much lesser degree than the male. Hard to say why one got through hibernation basically without a hitch, while the other has this problem. I did hear the male scratching in the hibernaculum from time to time, but the female hardly budged, as far as I could tell, until one or both was trying to emerge a couple days ago. So, maybe it's true that he did not brumate as deeply as she did. I don't know why that should be the case, but if hypovitaminosis A is indeed the problem, I can only speculate that it's because she generally eats more than he does (he's generally more active, but eats less).

Anyway, for the past two days, I have continued the treatment for the male (and the female). I have been keeping them warm, and giving them 15-minute warm carrot baths in the morning, as well as administering vitamin A drops into their eyes. I've also resumed feeding them plenty of spring mix and moist Mazuri and Grassland foods, sprinkled with calcium and vitamin D3.

As requested, here is a picture of the male with his eyes swollen shut:







As I said, the female's eyes are normal (or nearly normal), and she has been feeding well. As for the male, with his eyes swollen shut, he has been unable to feed. Actually, this morning he did start opening his eyes a little bit after he got his carrot bath and eye drops. He did come to the feeding bowl, but his vision must still be blurry, because he had a tough time feeding, and only managed to basically lick a couple leaves of lettuce before giving up. He's basking now, so hopefully he'll try again later.

Thanks for your help, everyone. Looks like the treatment is helping so far. I'll keep you posted.


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## dmmj (Feb 27, 2012)

Always good to hear some good news.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 27, 2012)

More good news: I just checked in on them, and the male is feeding now. He seems to have a little trouble seeing the leaves, but once they're in his mouth, he can go through them pretty well. I am relieved at this, because I think that once he starts getting nourishment into his body himself, he should start getting better much faster.

BTW - I forgot to mention that the supplement I sprinkle on their food (T-Rex brand) contains not only calcium and vitamin D3, but also beta carotene and vitamins A and C. So again, I am glad he is starting to get vitamin A and other nutrients - and of course, water and energy - into his system on his own again.


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## ascott (Feb 27, 2012)

Geo I am so glad that there is improvement! I have only one concern....you can disregard this entirely of course  you say that you are using vitamin a eye drops right...have you a dosage chart to know how much and how often you should be administering? I only asked because vitamin a eyedrops can be toxic and deadly just as injections if the dosage is not measured adequately .....I would wonder if it would not be better to offer vitamin a via consumption as a safer alternative? Pumpkin, dandelions..and the like foods high in vitamin a? Again, it is only a concern that popped in mind...I mean I can appreciate the sense of urgency when seeing eyes in that condition coupled with emergence from brumation...and being that it is both eyes I would also initially suspect vitamin a deficiency, however, there is no way to know this for certain and administering too much vitamin a just kinda worries me...how is his behavior with breathing also is he clear on the nose? Is he relatively thin or is he near what he was when he went in? If he has this situation and you say that the other tort has a slight symptom similar then perhaps he went in a little deficient you know?

Nonetheless, I am so happy he is trucking along


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 29, 2012)

ascott said:


> Geo I am so glad that there is improvement! I have only one concern....you can disregard this entirely of course  you say that you are using vitamin a eye drops right...have you a dosage chart to know how much and how often you should be administering? I only asked because vitamin a eyedrops can be toxic and deadly just as injections if the dosage is not measured adequately .....I would wonder if it would not be better to offer vitamin a via consumption as a safer alternative? Pumpkin, dandelions..and the like foods high in vitamin a? Again, it is only a concern that popped in mind...I mean I can appreciate the sense of urgency when seeing eyes in that condition coupled with emergence from brumation...and being that it is both eyes I would also initially suspect vitamin a deficiency, however, there is no way to know this for certain and administering too much vitamin a just kinda worries me...how is his behavior with breathing also is he clear on the nose? Is he relatively thin or is he near what he was when he went in? If he has this situation and you say that the other tort has a slight symptom similar then perhaps he went in a little deficient you know?
> 
> Nonetheless, I am so happy he is trucking along



It's a ZooMed brand bottle of vitamin A and beta-carotene (which breaks down into vitamin A in the body). Vitamin A is fat-soluble, so yes, we do have to be careful about toxicity. However, beta-carotene is water-soluble, so anything the body doesn't convert to vitamin A itself will be excreted harmlessly in the urine.

The bottle is clear, which surprises me since medicines and supplements are supposed to be in opaque containers to protect them from light. Anyway, the instructions are to give 2 drops per eye once a day. In the past, I treated this condition in one of my box turtles using vitamin A drops from a different brand (Tetra, I believe, which did use an opaque bottle), and their instructions likewise said to give 2 drops per eye once a day. The other brand also recommended sprinkling some of the solution onto the turtle's food, so I did that this time as well. Topical absorption is slight, so it is probably hard to overdose vitamin A with eye drops, although you do have to be careful about how much you put onto their food, since absorption in the gut is much greater. Nevertheless, considering that the male does appear to have hypovitaminosis A, and the female probably does, too, although to a much lesser degree, I am not taking any chances. So, in addition to daily warm carrot baths, I am giving both tortoises the solution, both directly on the eyes, and in the food to make sure they get enough beta-carotene and vitamin A.

Anyway, here's a nice update for you:

I am pleased to say that the male's eyes are doing much better. They are no longer swollen shut, and they are now open and clear. I think he still might have a little dryness, because sometimes his blinking is a little slow. But otherwise, the eyes are looking much better. The female, who appeared healthy, but had a small amount of discharge from her right eye, now appears to be completely normal. Both tortoises are alert, active, and feeding well again, so that's good news. 

However, you guessed it: last night the male did develop a slight runny nose. I noticed that he started blowing small bubbles every once in a while in the evening, and I am still seeing that this morning. Also, I now see a small amount of clear discharge just below his nostrils. I know a runny nose can be due to a variety of things, from something as simple as dust or debris in the enclosure, to something as serious as viral or bacterial infection after being chilled. Considering his situation (treatment for hypovitaminosis A after a failed brumation), I am worried that he might have an upper respiratory tract infection (URTI). Please, what do you recommend I do?

Thank you,
Gaddy


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## ascott (Feb 29, 2012)

> last night the male did develop a slight runny nose. I noticed that he started blowing small bubbles every once in a while in the evening, and I am still seeing that this morning. Also, I now see a small amount of clear discharge just below his nostrils.



Gaddy, this was my concern more than the possible vitamin a deficiency, also was why I asked the information below;



> how is his behavior with breathing also is he clear on the nose? Is he relatively thin or is he near what he was when he went in?



It would make more sense to me that his eyes were swollen shut solid due to the onset of a RI than them being swollen shut due to a vitamin a deficiency....I would have suspected a small amount of clear runny eye with the squinty appearance for a vitamin a deficiency alone...especially since I bet your diet for them is good....you know?

I would isolate this guy and bump his temps to no less than 80 as well as providing him a basking spot just a little higher (not too high as he will not have a cool spot to retreat to) I would also continue to do the baby food soaks followed by a clean warm water soak and dry him off before you put him back into his temp enclosure---I would do this for a week at least and see how he seems to be coming along with the runny nose---at present you have not reported any chunky monkey stuff coming out of his nose but rather clear....so you may be able to give him the immune boost he needs by continuing the soaks and offering foods high in vitamin a and some vitamin c along with his regular diet and keep the temps up.....this is what I would do if faced with this.

I also don't know that I would consider this a failed brumation, but rather this little guy may have had some underlying issue that was escalated by the brumation, you know what I mean? 

You and he should do just fine 

Also, was the other tortoise in the same shared container with this guy? If so I would offer her the same treatment to assure her slight eye issue is not actually a faint sign of RI as well.....eyes are a tricky thing...I do not like to use drops for vitamin a right off the bat, as this will sometimes mask what may really be going on....please don't get me wrong, I too would be freaked out at first faced with this puff eyes coming out of brumation....time is of the essence I agree.. Now, I am not trying to tell you what to do, PROMISE I am not, I am simly sharing with you what I would do in your position...so wait round and see what the others offer up as well....


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 29, 2012)

Thanks, Angela. I wonder if it's both avitaminosis A and URTI at the same time. 

Okay, thanks for explaining more about what to do with the enclosure, and with the soaks and after. I will do that for both the male and the female. Also, what exactly does the baby food provide? Is it beta-carotene, and if so, how does it work if the tortoise bathes in it, but does not drink or ingest it? I have been giving them warm baby food soaks, but I haven't been rinsing them off or drying them afterward, because I thought that might negate the effects of the soak. Might I be doing more harm than good by doing that? I will change my practice to include a clean water soak and drying step now. 

I am glad to hear that a home-remedy approach might be enough to reverse this without antibiotic shots, etc. Last time I had a turtle get a runny nose (a boxie), she had to get a cocktail of Baytril and vitamins injected into her (which did cure her, BTW). If necessary, I would of course let a vet administer that treatment to this tortoise, too. But if this problem is something we can "nip in the bud" with the therapy you recommended, and return to normal at home, that would be great.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 29, 2012)

Update:

When I took Mork and Mindy out of brumation on Saturday, they stayed mostly near the hot spot. Mindy still tends to stay over there (not necessarily a bad sign, as they both do that a lot, and as I said she looks good and has a healthy appetite). But this morning I found Mork on the cool side of the pen, and he has stayed there for much of the day. He even appears to be trying to climb out. That seems like a good sign, but I'm not sure what to make of it.

I'm tempted to think that this is good, because it means he is becoming active again, like a male Russian tortoise coming out of brumation should. However, could this be a bad thing? Maybe he doesn't like it in there, and is desperate to find someplace more comfortable? I don't know.

I haven't raised the ambient temp in there to 80*F yet, so right now their pens are at their usual settings: 70*F ambient, with a 95*F hot spot. If he is active on the cool end, does that mean he is feeling good, or is avoiding the basking area a bad sign when a tortoise has a runny nose? What do you think?


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## ascott (Feb 29, 2012)

I am happy to hear he is active...and just so you know, the reason I say to give him a follow up warm eater soak is that sometimes a tortoise does not like new things and while the baby food soaks are helpful sometimes a tortoise wont take in the water with the mix...like since they don't know what it is they may not take drinks but their body is soaking in the fluid..so if you follow up with plain warm water he will recognize the plain water and will likely drink..so kinda covering both says and an ultra great exposure to much more soak time...I say I would dry them off is to assure they will not get the wind chill if he is fighting off the runny nose....so I do not believe you have done any harm at all 

I would really increase the ambient temp to make sure temp does not fall below 80..when a tortoise is ailing the best thing to do is to give their immune system as much support as possible and providing increased temp does that....



Also..if after a week to ten days you don't see him drying out some then you can always take him to the vet to get you set up for baytril injections....you know?


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 29, 2012)

ascott said:


> I am happy to hear he is active...and just so you know, the reason I say to give him a follow up warm eater soak is that sometimes a tortoise does not like new things and while the baby food soaks are helpful sometimes a tortoise wont take in the water with the mix...like since they don't know what it is they may not take drinks but their body is soaking in the fluid..so if you follow up with plain warm water he will recognize the plain water and will likely drink..so kinda covering both says and an ultra great exposure to much more soak time...I say I would dry them off is to assure they will not get the wind chill if he is fighting off the runny nose....so I do not believe you have done any harm at all
> 
> I would really increase the ambient temp to make sure temp does not fall below 80..when a tortoise is ailing the best thing to do is to give their immune system as much support as possible and providing increased temp does that....
> 
> ...





Gotcha. Okay, I will increase the ambient temperature so they don't get even a slight chill. As you know, healthy Russians like their night temps to go into the 60s, but I will not let that happen as long as they are feeling ill. And yes, if things do not improve, I will take Mork, and maybe even Mindy as well, to the vet.

BTW - Turns out the reason Mork was trying to climb the walls was he was hungry! I should've known, because that's what he does in the growing season, too. This morning before I went to work, I bathed both Mork and Mindy, and gave them big breakfasts consisting of spring mix, Mazuri, and Grassland Food sprinkled with calcium, vitamin D3, vitamin A, and beta-carotene. They both chowed down, but didn't finish them, so I assumed that even if they got hungry again later (which happens all the time), they would have some leftovers to nibble on. Well, it turns out Mindy ate almost all of that, and Mork finished it all and still wanted more, which was why he was so active on the cool end of the pen: poor guy was trying to find more food! Well, no worries, because he got it, and now both of them are basking contentedly.

Thanks again for the advice. Looks like they're getting better everyday, but I'll keep tending them and let you know how it goes. And as I said, if the TLC approach doesn't work, then I will take them to a herp vet.


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## ascott (Feb 29, 2012)

Awesome....and by the way, I ABSOLUTELY LOVE the names Mork and Mindy....lol


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Feb 29, 2012)

ascott said:


> Is he relatively thin or is he near what he was when he went in? If he has this situation and you say that the other tort has a slight symptom similar then perhaps he went in a little deficient you know?



Yes, he did come out a little light. Not completely emaciated or anything, but noticeably lighter. Meanwhile, Mindy did not feel particularly light, so either she didn't lose as much weight, or she had more fat reserves and/or was more hydrated going in. I didn't weigh them this week, because I didn't want to stress them, but it does seem like he lost more weight than she did, or else started winter lighter to begin with.

I think that may be something males are more prone to. I think they spend a lot of energy running around, perhaps looking for females to mate with, or males to fight with, and spend less time eating (even if they're subadults). Meanwhile, the females are happy to forage almost as much as they want, except when mating or laying eggs. So, although they do put their energy into egg production, maybe they go into brumation with more fat reserves than the males. Could it be that males are more vulnerable during brumation for that reason? Maybe I have to be more careful that Mork eats enough before winter, and if not, maybe I should shorten or eliminate his brumation period. It's possible.

I did weigh them during the growing season, and just before hibernation. I also computed Donohue's Index to see if they were of the minimum weight before letting them brumate:

*Mork*
Date: 11/1/2011
SCL: 10.6 cm
Weight: 330 g
Minimum Donohue weight: 227 g
Percent of minimum: 145%

*Mindy*
Date: 11/1/2011
SCL: 10.4 cm
Weight: 335 g
Minimum Donohue weight: 215 g
Percent of minimum: 156%

So, even though they were both above the minimum weight according to the Donohue formula, Mindy was a bit heavier (both in relative and absolute terms), so maybe that was enough to make a difference. Maybe she had more fat reserves to resist avitaminosis, and/or maybe she was more hydrated and could resist infection better.

The "trouble" with applying the Donohue formula to Russian tortoises is that they have a roundish carapace, so it's easy to over-estimate their condition. Maybe a Russian tortoise with an index of 156% is okay (barely), but one at 145% (like Mork) is below the borderline. Like I said, they both had some pudge, so I thought they were in good condition to brumate, but maybe not. In the wild these guys brumate for 6 months, but here 4 months was almost too much for Mindy, and it was a bit too much for Mork. Maybe that's because they're so young, or maybe their diet is not as nourishing as I thought. Well, hopefully next year they won't try to brumate again, but if they do, I'll only put them in for 2 months ... 3 months tops.



ascott said:


> Awesome....and by the way, I ABSOLUTELY LOVE the names Mork and Mindy....lol



Thanks! Cute, isn't it? 

Cheers,
Gaddy


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Mar 11, 2012)

"Well, I'm all better now. Thanks, everyone! Now, I'm just working on getting back to my fighting weight.

Love,
Mork"


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## ascott (Mar 11, 2012)

Ahhhh...he looks magnificent...!!! and I was thinking about him yesterday, so happy to see the update


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