# Tortoise Show in La Habra, Calif, today



## crocsmom (Aug 18, 2013)

Hello,
I went to the Tortoise Show in La Habra, calif, today. They had a large California Desert Tortoise there that had a huge (tennis ball size) stone removed from, I think he said from the Bladder. It was white-ish/gray a kind of bumpy and rough.

My question is:
1. What causes this?
2. How can I prevent this from happening to my Tort.

One more Question:
Do you take your torts in for check-ups? How often?

Thank you to all that reply.


----------



## Jim in Merced CA (Aug 18, 2013)

Man - that would be fun to attend


----------



## ascott (Aug 18, 2013)

Lack of hydration + foods high in oxalates....


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Aug 18, 2013)

I have seen that before. Freaks.Me.Out. Prevention is key!


----------



## crocsmom (Aug 18, 2013)

Well, it looks like I'm going to adjust my torts meals. I give him 3 - 4 Blueberries (he loves them) with every meal, along with Green Beans. I give him Strawberry tops occasionally.

He is very hydrated...he pees all the time.

caring for a tortoise is very complex, lol! Just when I think I'm doing everything right....I find out I'm not.


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Aug 18, 2013)

Nope. Blueberries every day is not a good thing. Fruits can disrupt their internal workings. It's the sugars. Too much sugars, too much proteins (like green beans being legumes) and you have an imbalance. (I think the fish and game people say fruit once a month!). They need grasses and native plants, lotsa fiber. And soaks, misting, water access at all times. Old time thinking is that they are desert animals and therefore like the hot but they are only out and about to thermoregulate, fire up their digestive system, and to eat. Most of their lives, they are underground in burrows, where it is moist and of course cooler. 

Variety is the key to their diet. And the best part is that many things you can grow for your garden / landscape are also great and good for your tortoises. Roses, grape leaves, hibiscus, fig leaves, St Augustine grass, Bermuda (oh, the bain of Bermuda) grass, dandelions, purslane (a weed to many) ... of course, cactus/nopales and the prickly pears! Most succulents, like jade plant which seems to grow everywhere. Just make sure their is no chemical fertilzers being used.

Check out thetortoisetable.org.uk for good reference on foods ... although they are very cautious about some things and I still feed now and then, like spinach which is high in oxalates but has other good things. Lotsa variety is the best way to go ... I use a choppie as seen on tv thingie ... throw 5 to 10 different things in there ... slap chop, slap chop ... and serve. Couple times a week, I supplement with Grassland and Mazuri. I don't use them everyday. Prefer the real, nature made it, stuff. 

And keep your baby hydrated. Warm water soaks are great. Tortie spa - ahhhh! Misters in the garden. A sunken in size appropriate terra cotta saucer for walking in and out of. There are many old school thinkers and many not knowing owners (thank goodness for this forum, for education) so the tortoises can eventually end up with stones like what you saw at the show today. Long term dry and same long term oxalate heavy foods and they end up with those crazy yukky, and painful I am sure, stones.


----------



## Team Gomberg (Aug 18, 2013)

It was an awesome show  

That bladder stone was intense!
Hope you had a good time 

Sent from my TFOapp


----------



## crocsmom (Aug 18, 2013)

BeeBee, Thank you!

I have a fig tree and never thought to give him the leaves. He will not eat napal...but he does like prickly pear. I have had a huge terra cotta sauce for 5 yrs....he NEVER goes in by himself. I put him in...and he climbs right out. I put him in his tote with sun warmed water....and all he does is scratch to get out. But, I do run the misters for him and he will spend * a little* time with those.

Grassland? I know what Mazuri is....it's been awhile since I've had any. I'll order more.

My 'baby' is quite large. Maybe 25 -30 years old.

Thanks again!


----------



## crocsmom (Aug 18, 2013)

Team Gomberg,
I did have a good time and it was a good show. Those stones were crazy!

Hope you had a good time too.


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Aug 18, 2013)

crocsmom said:


> BeeBee, Thank you!
> 
> I have a fig tree and never thought to give him the leaves. He will not eat napal...but he does like prickly pear. I have had a huge terra cotta sauce for 5 yrs....he NEVER goes in by himself. I put him in...and he climbs right out. I put him in his tote with sun warmed water....and all he does is scratch to get out. But, I do run the misters for him and he will spend * a little* time with those.
> 
> ...



Quite welcome. Your baby is a biggie, oldie! Awesome! : )

You know what works well is garden trugs. They cannot get out. Supervised, of course, 15 minutes when it is warm out. Bird vitamins twice a month added, suggestion. My bro does that with the 61 year olds (born in 1952) we inherited from the grandpa guy.

Grassland is by ZooMed and like Mazuri, you soak it and it swells up. Lotsa grasses in it. Oh, I read recently that it takes 2 months for tortoises to adjust to new foods. For the life of me, I cannot remember where I read it but I think I remember an expert on CDTs stating that. Will try to find the link and post laters.

So glad you went to the show. I was not able and I did want to see and meet Heather. Love that she was there educating about hot and humid! Woo hoo Heather! You rock. 

And you know, kinda glad the stones shocked people. Education for the good of our lil friends, whatever it takes! CDTs are treasures! : )


----------



## Shelly (Aug 23, 2013)

crocsmom said:


> Do you take your torts in for check-ups? How often?



Never.


----------



## StephanieRob (Aug 26, 2013)

Came to this site seeking information. How strange to happen upon this thread, as it was my tortoise that is likely the source of the stone in this conversation! 

My husband and I adopted this tort as a rescue maybe two years ago. The stones were discovered by the vet when we took him for a check-up (prior to allowing him to go into brumation) and removed the following spring. We were amazed at the size of the stones - they must have been forming for years. The vet said that this is not uncommon in captive tortoises. 

Anyway, we are enjoying our tortoises and turtles, and are doing our best to make sure they are getting the proper diet and hydration to keep them healthy, happy and stone-free. 

Sent from my SGH-T999 using TortForum mobile app


----------



## Tom (Aug 26, 2013)

There is much speculation about what causes these stones, but no one knows for sure. Suspected contributors are too much protein in the diet (green beans), too much oxalates (spinach), and not enough hydration (my tortoise doesn't like his soaks, so I don't make him do it). Over the years I have seen certain patterns. Anecdotal? Yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean there is nothing to it. These stones (the ones at the show are a perfect example) almost always come out of tortoises that belong to people who follow the typical CTTC advice of housing your CDT in dry, above ground conditions. Hydration is not emphasized, as the above ground environment (NOT the environment CDTs spend most of their lives in) where they come from is dry. The CTTC people recommend infrequent soaks, if ever, and if you use an aquarium or a water bowl with a baby CDT, you have committed some sort of heinous crime. For many years other non-native species have been housed this way too, and we have completely proven that it is wrong and detrimental. I have raised CDTs on damp substrate, with daily soaks, a covered top and a humid hide box, and they thrived.

I contend that instead of subjecting CDTs to conditions that an above ground Joshua Tree might have to endure, we instead attempt to create the conditions that a Mojave earthworm might encounter underground, with the option of a spot to temporarily warm up in the "sun" for the little babies.

Here are my thoughts for you Crocsmom:

Stop or greatly reduce the legumes.

Stop the fruit. Instead of trying to guess how often (once a month, for example) they can tolerate an inappropriate food, how about we just don't give them inappropriate foods at all?

Keep offering the cactus pads. Try to cut them up super fine and mix them with other favorite foods. It will take time for him to get used to the taste, smell and texture. Don't give up after a few days. He might need to see it and ignore it for a month before he takes a bite on purpose.

Depending on weather, put him in his soaking tub two or three times a week for a while whether he likes it or not. Usually they will get used to it. Usually if you use warm water and do it it early morning and not in the sun, they will fight it less. Also make puddles in his enclosure regularly. Most CDTs cannot help drinking when they come across a fresh puddle. Make sure his water saucer is in the shade and stays cool and fresh. Often they will pass by a tub of warm water. Offer multiple watering options around the pen. You can help encourage the mood to drink by offering multiple opportunities for it around the enclosure. This hydration could save him from one of those stones, if its not too late.

Fertilizers are fine whether they are chemically derived or "naturally" derived, as long as the tortoises don't have direct access to it. Tortoises shouldn't have direct access to any fertilizers from any source.


----------

