# Outdoor Pets



## Tom (Jan 28, 2010)

I've given this a lot of thought. I got into reptiles in the late 80's and early90's when any kind of captive breeding was groundbreaking and worthy of great praise and admiration. This is when I saw and bought my first Leopards and Sulcatas. Up to this point I had been dealing mostly with wild caught russians and deserts that I rescued from certain death and abuse. I was so proud to have these fantastic animals while not depleting anything from the wild or contributing to the bad things that are associated with third world wildlife collection or idiots from the city bringing home the tortoise they found in the desert while driving home from Vegas.

This attitude and way of looking at things has continued and I still feel this way. Possibly even more so now. I found this forum at the Pomona Reptile Show just recently and was elated to say the least. Imagine my dismay at the outright rudeness and hostility for anyone who has the audacity to even consider breeding Sulcatas. Because a few unfit people do not take proper care of their animals is no reason to stop captive breeding of an amazing and beautiful animal. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Where are all of these unwanted tortoises that I keep hearing about? I want them I've got room and resources for them. At the very same show where I found this terrific forum I saw several for sale for a lot of money. There was one small female that I really considered buying for $900 dollars. That doesn't sound like an unwanted animal to me.

Here's where I really get offensive. I think Sulcatas are the best tortoise out there and a great beginner pet. Don't get me wrong, I love all torts, so all you lovers of Redfoots, Greeks and Russians, don't get all defensive about why your species is better. I think they are all great. To me however, you just can't beat the beauty, hardiness, appetite, size and outgoing nature of the Sulcata. People who know nothing of chelonians are amazed at how fast, active and personable my tortoises are and I share their fascination despite decades of being around them. Sulcatas are the easiest tortoise there is to keep healthy. Remember, I've dabbled in all of them at one time or another, so I don't make this statement lightly. My very first chelonian experience consisted of nearly killing my Western Box Turtle due to ignorance in 1979.

I think the problem is that most of the general public think of tortoises as INSIDE pets. They just aren't. Especially the big ones; Leopards, Sullies, Burmese, etc. Even the little species need to be outside as much as possible. Yes, I know, it is physically possible to keep them alive indoors all the time. I, personally, just don't think its right. Tortoises, as much as any animal I know of, need sunshine and lots of space for exercise and movement. I've said it before, I've rescued many reptiles from MBD that had been under expensive UV lighting, but never went outdoors. My sixteen year old Iguana is one of them. If you agree with the premise that turtles and tortoises are primarily an outdoor pet, then your local climate should be playing a big part in which ones you decide to keep. I'm dying to have a herd of Burmese Blacks, but they'd eventually have to live outside and my area is just not right for them. Sooooo, I don't buy any.

I agree that its fine to bring them in at night for safety and cold weather. I agree that babies should be generally housed indoors, but they should also be outside as much as they safely can. I'm trying to imagine how I would manage my torts if I lived somewhere that froze over for months at a time. You'd have to build a big, room sized enclosure to get through the winter and spend a fortune trying to mimic tropical weather.

I'm trying to say that this is a case of people buying the wrong animal for their climate and living situation. This happens with all animals. Does it happen more with Sulcatas? Not that I've seen. RESes, yes. I see these poor little ones housed and cared for inappropriately almost universally. If you suddenly banned the species that you think are the most problematic, the next best one would simply take its place. In some areas they've banned those horrible, vicious, child-killing pit bulls( this is absurd, BTW ) and guess what. Now they have horrible, vicious, child-killing Rottweilers or American Bulldogs in those areas. A far worse problem. I believe education is the best and only cure for such blights. Legislation and bans won't do it. Hostility towards the breeders who you feel are contributing to the problem won't do it either. 

I believe those of us that know better have a responsibility to ENCOURAGE and educate new people to the hobby. I sure appreciated it when the vet erased my ignorance and helped me save Tommy Turtle. It built a life long fascination for me. If he had given us the third degree, who knows where I would be today. I REALLY appreciated Richard Fifes Leopard Tortoise book, finally explaining pyramiding (the bane of my existence) to me. I want to breed my Sulcatas and create another generation of tortoise lovers. I just want them, and everybody else, to know how to do it right. It is no different or more difficult than properly caring for any other OUTDOOR animal.


----------



## terryo (Jan 28, 2010)

What exactly is the debate? Do you mean that people who can't afford a house with a yard, and live in an apartment shouldn't have a tortoise of any kind or just a bigger one like a Sulcata? 

Here in NY there is always a Sulcata or two looking to go to homes in a warmer climate. 

http://www.turtlerescues.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=602


----------



## Yvonne G (Jan 28, 2010)

When I first joined this forum, my mantra was that tortoises needed to be outside. Period.

Most of my initial posts started out with...,"Tortoises need to be outside, but if you have to keep them in the house for whatever reason..."

But after being indoctrinated here for over a year now, I realize that I am in the minority and most tortoise keepers have whatever kind of tortoise they want to have regardless to whether the tortoise can be housed outside or not. So, I've sort of relaxed my stance on it. If you live in the Northern U.S. and want a sulcata, then more power to you. (I wanted to say, "But don't come crying to me when the tortoise is too big to live in the house any more.", but I will be calm and try to stay focused...everyone is entitled to buy what ever they can afford. I just hope they do their homework and try to give the tortoise the best care they possible can.

I'm still a firm believer that tortoises belong outside. I have several different kinds of tortoise and all of them live outside year round. I don't live in an area of warm winters either. My tortoises all have heated and insulated sheds. The all can come and go out of their shed anytime they want to. When they get cold, they go back in on their own.

I'm a retired person, and live on my pension and Social Security. I don't have any kids to spend my money on. So all my money goes towards the tortoises. So I am in a position to have tortoises in a cold climate. I just wish that little Susie Cream Cheese and Joe the Plumber would realize what it costs to provide for a warm country tortoise in a cold climate and control that impulse buy and don't buy the tortoise just because you want it. Can you give it what it needs to be a happy, healthy tortoise? Then go ahead and buy it.

You've touched on a subject that is close to my heart. I have to hold my tongue quite a bit when reading about all these tortoises being kept in the house. I just keep telling myself that the keepers will build them an outdoor habitat soon...yes, they will, I'm sure of it!

And, yes, if you live in an apartment and there is no place to keep a tortoise outside for at least part of the year, then don't get one!


----------



## Tom (Jan 28, 2010)

terryo said:


> What exactly is the debate? Do you mean that people who can't afford a house with a yard, and live in an apartment shouldn't have a tortoise of any kind or just a bigger one like a Sulcata?
> 
> Here in NY there is always a Sulcata or two looking to go to homes in a warmer climate.
> 
> http://www.turtlerescues.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=602



My side of the debate, in a nutshell, is: If you can't provide what a captive animal needs for health and safety, for whatever reason ,then you shouldn't get that animal.

As an example: My desire to own Burmese Blacks, but because of my inability to provide what they need during the hot summer months, I don't own any.

If most people would follow this simple, obvious advice, there would be no need for rescues and abuse or neglect would be a thing of the past.

I don't hold it against people who just didn't know any better. It just seems like in this day and age there is less and less excuse for not knowing better.


----------



## Stephanie Logan (Jan 28, 2010)

Wow. I am going to be excoriated for saying this, but it seems that in the 5 months I've been on this forum, the majority (or probably close to half) of the tortoises that have died while their keepers sought help on this forum, were Sulcata, especially hatchlings. It always makes me sad because they are mostly well-intentioned but novice keepers who are in way over their head with a baby tortoise. I have found myself wondering if Sulcata hatchlings are just more susceptible to illness and early death, if there are simply more of them out there, if their owners are just the type of people who seek help, if only keepers in trouble look for help here on TFO while the owners of healthy torts don't post, etc.

But conversely, maybe a lot of Sulcata die as hatchlings and their keepers never turn to tortoise forums for help, relying on vets and pet shop workers to supply advice and help.

I look at my own family, who should have done some research and been better tortoise keepers at the beginning, and I wonder, Roachman, if you are giving too much credit and benefit of the doubt to the undeserving.


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Jan 28, 2010)

Almost 4 years ago I moved from the Central Valley in California to the Pacific North West. When I moved here I had over 50 chelonia including 3 Sulcata. Over these last 3 years I have given some to Yvonne to find better forever homes for and killed off some. Now I have about 30. Bob lives in a shed in the back of my property in a storage shed that I paid a contractor $800 to redo the inside and insulate so Bob can live comfortably there. He has a doggie door out to his pen. The rest live in the house. In the warm weather I spend my time moving turtles and tortoises in and out. They can't be outside at night because of predators. But I have created outside pens for everybody who lives in the house. I often wonder if I am not being fair to Bob in keeping him in a state where he has to be inside 7 months out of the year. So this year I have run an experiment. I open his doggie door everyday rain or snow. I give him the choice if he wants to stay in or go out. He used to ram the doors and the walls making known how unhappy he was cooped up. But if he can go out and walk around in the cold rain he comes back in and settles down under his Trex light reasonably content. It's his decision to stay in. 
I guess from reading the previous posts I am getting that that I shouldn't keep the animals I do. I am also on a fixed income and I spend every available dime to make my animals comfortable. And as soon as the weather warms up I start my routine of bringing them in and out. Daily I take them out and bring them back in and I don't think there's anyone here who takes better care of their animals then I do, so I don't think anyone here should say that I don't have the right to keep my animals in the house, and it makes me mad when I read that I or others like me shouldn't keep chelonia because they have to live in the house. You that have your animals outside don't spend as much time with yours as I do with mine. I see them everyday all day long doing their stuff, and I get to laugh at the tiny tortoise who climbed the half log and fell down on his nose. I get to watch them eat breakfast and go for a swim in the soaking dish. My box turtles in their tort table are a constant source of joy. Because mine are in the house I get to interact with them more. Queenie lives in Bob's shed and I have to go out there and stand to watch her dig her holes and eat the ants. I am thinking about bringing her into the house so I can spend more time with her. So you can think all you want that chelonia belong outside and that may be the case. But I'll guaranty you that I spend more time with my animals then you do and I enjoy them much more for them being in my house.
But I think this debate is twofold...
The second part of this debate is about breeding Sulcata, but because the OP didn't make this part of his debate I have erased what I wrote about that.


----------



## Shelly (Jan 28, 2010)

I love animals, but only have varieties that stay outside 24/7. Chickens, Koi, Turtles, Tortoises..those are my kinds of pets.


----------



## Tom (Jan 28, 2010)

Hi Maggie. You made a lot of points and I'd like to address some of them.

1. You acquired your animals when you lived in a good area for them. When you moved you honored your commitment to them as best you could.

2. You have outdoor pens for all of your animals and use them as much as possible. And you have, in my opinion, adequate housing for Bob. If everybody in the Pacific Northwest built an insulated, heated shed attached to a big outdoor pen, there would have been no reason for the OP.

3. You said you killed off some of your original 50, but you didn't say how. Was it because the environment wasn't suitable? If so, it sort proves the point of the original post. If they died for other reasons, then my apologies.

4. I think most people on this forum spend a lot of time with their animals. Its not a contest to see who spends more. I'm with my animals nearly all day, every day too. They're just outside walking around next to where I'm working. Further, and I don't mean this to sound harsh, but just because YOU enjoy having them in your house, doesn't mean THEY enjoy it. I'm not at all suggesting you shouldn't own the animals you do. I'm suggesting that people who live in the frozen North should consider other, more suitable species unless they want to build large indoor heated enclosures, like your shed, and have large outdoors areas for the time of year when its usable.

This post was not intended as a personal attack on anyone, it was an attempt to share a point of view that I feel is not considered often enough.



Stephanie Logan said:


> Wow. I am going to be excoriated for saying this, but it seems that in the 5 months I've been on this forum, the majority (or probably close to half) of the tortoises that have died while their keepers sought help on this forum, were Sulcata, especially hatchlings. It always makes me sad because they are mostly well-intentioned but novice keepers who are in way over their head with a baby tortoise. I have found myself wondering if Sulcata hatchlings are just more susceptible to illness and early death, if there are simply more of them out there, if their owners are just the type of people who seek help, if only keepers in trouble look for help here on TFO while the owners of healthy torts don't post, etc.
> 
> But conversely, maybe a lot of Sulcata die as hatchlings and their keepers never turn to tortoise forums for help, relying on vets and pet shop workers to supply advice and help.
> 
> I look at my own family, who should have done some research and been better tortoise keepers at the beginning, and I wonder, Roachman, if you are giving too much credit and benefit of the doubt to the undeserving.



Stephanie, I appreciate you adding your observations. There will be no excoriations today.

I have also noticed the number of losses of Sulcatas. I can't explain that phenomenon on this forum. I can, however, relate what I've seen in 8 years of retail service, 14 years as a professional animal trainer/handler and three decades of reptile keeping. No one I know has ever had any trouble with a sulcata, except for mild pyramiding which we NOW know how to prevent. This includes dozens of customers, several friends and relatives, and several professional colleagues. I have seen a lot of other species of turtles and torts get sick and or die even when conditions seemed okay. I've personally saved a lot of them from certain death. Many were too far gone to be saved.

I think nowadays more Sulcatas are sold than any other tort, so it stands to reason that you will statistically see more Sulcata problems too. No animal is completely indestructible, but Sulcatas come closer than anything else I've seen.


----------



## stells (Jan 29, 2010)

The way i read it you are saying that people who live in a colder climate shouldn't own reptiles...

So all of us in the UK shouldn't??? 

It takes alot of work to keep tortoises here in the winter... unless you have all hibernating species... but it can be done... and it can be done well....

My tortoises get out for 5-6 months of the year.... if they are lucky.... 

The oldest ones i have here are aged between 60-70 years and are Algerian graeca.... they have lived in this country for 50 years.... and have come to no ill effect by doing so....

I don't like to bring dogs into the discussion on tortoises.... but as the OP does i will... if people in a colder climate shouldn't keep reptiles... maybe people in a hot climate shouldn't keep dogs due to the amount that die year after year from heat stroke and dehydration.... maybe zoo's in hot climates shouldn't have Polar bears... penguins etc....

Not everyone can be tarred with the same brush...


----------



## Nay (Jan 29, 2010)

I am reading this post,certainly trying to see both sides of it. ANd I have to agree with Kelly, you cannot make a blanket statement.
I too am in the animal industry and see way more than I want to see with incorrect choices people make with regard to animal matches. Many people make a blanket statement about dogs being bred period. Just adopt a mutt, save a dog. Well the more we take care of places that allow their dogs to breed indiscriminately by going 'down south' and picking up strays that would be picked up and euthanized, the more people think its just OK to let them run free and breed, they think the problem isn't all that bad, yeah because trucks go down south and pick them up. Your absolutely right Roachman, education is the answer. 
The dogs are in the pound 90 percent because of behavioral problems. Education!! Look at what your getting first.But they don't
Torts are such a cool great pet, but how many think ,stick in an aquarium and feed pellets? (not here on the forum, the general public.)Education!!! I know all of us here want better. Many of us have taken in those who were purchased from others thinking torts were easy pets. Education.
How to educate is more the issue.
Unfortunately I think those that would have torts outside 24/7 is just not going to happen. Too many things can just go wrong. Here it is 7 degrees and due to stay like that for 4 days. we have lost power for 3 days in a row. My torts would be frozen pops.Sometimes we loose power in the middle of the night, my house does get cold, but not like outside. I will never attempt to make them outside all winter.Should I not own them? I do agree maybe torts shouldn't even be pets,but since they are and since many attempts are being made to give them what they need from research. We should strive to duplicate that.Look at some of the pets that have been made pets and we cannot find the proper care to keep them healthy. Ferrets come to mind. We cannot keep them from getting adrenal disease by the time they are 6 (90 percent) That is something wrong with their care in captivity. Is it right to have them as pets? Many people would argue with that. I believe there are so many people interested in tort health that we are getting more and more educated. How many here have "old" torts.? With devastation of natural habitat, being able to properly care for torts is so important. 
I have a problem with horses that have limited access to being outside, blanketed and have shoes on. But would it be right for me to say people shouldn't own them. Not up to me, I think. But when they see my 27 yr old being ridden like he's 10, on rocks with no shoes, people ask me what I do. Then I simply tell them. I try to take that approach with alot of things. (I wish I could do it with everthing, I keep trying!)
Also what is OP?
Na


----------



## Yvonne G (Jan 29, 2010)

Nay said:


> Also what is OP?
> Na



Original Post or sometimes refers to the Original Poster

I don't think anyone is saying if you live in a cold climate you shouldn't have a tortoise. My thinking on the subject is if you live in a cold climate then don't get a very large tortoise. Most cold climates have some months of warm weather when the tortoise can be outside. I'm sure the sun shines in England occasionally. I hear of tortoises in the English garden all the time. But how many sulcatas live in England? 

What I'm saying is if you have to have a tortoise, then get one that fits your lifestyle. Don't get a sulcata because you want one. Even if you live in an apartment, there must be a balcony or a small place outside where the tortoise can get some occasional outside time. And there are some types tortoises that are better suited to living indoors, like a redfoot.

(And my use of the Sulcata as an example doesn't mean I'm anti-sulcata)


----------



## -ryan- (Jan 29, 2010)

I just feel that too many people think that their experiences cover everyone's experiences. My experience has been that, with russians, an indoor setup of suitable size with good heat and about 8-9" of soil will result in healthy animals that grow quickly and reproduce like rabbits. I don't use UVB and I can't keep them outside all summer (too many human predators prowling the backyard), and I explain my motives for such things, but I don't tell people that is how they need to keep them. It's just been my experience.

That being said, I live in upstate new york where the ground is frozen quite a bit of the time, and we have a big problem with people going into our backyard and taking/harming things. We have a creek that runs through our backyard, and this past summer the neighborhood hoodlums took several water snakes, snapping turtles, and amphibians directly from our backyard, killed a very large female water snake, and injured a duck by throwing a rock at it. They also tore apart a section of our retaining wall, and threw the bricks into the creek (at the snakes). I caught them a couple of times and spoke with some parents, but it's just sickening to think of what would happen if they came upon my tortoises in their pen. I am hoping that in the next couple years I will be able to move somewhere a little safer for the animals (though also a little more urban) where I can build large, secure outdoor habitats that the animals can use all summer. But right now I think I am doing what is best for the animals by keeping them indoors and only out in the pens when I am around to keep an eye on them.

It all has to do with the situation you are faced with, so that's why I don't really accept broad statements based on personal belief. I do feel that my animals will have it better when I can keep them outdoors more, but I also see great little tortoises that grow and reproduce, so that is how I gauge their health.


----------



## stells (Jan 29, 2010)

There are actually more Sulcata tortoises here than you would think... and breeders of them too... they get a bad rap here as do Leopard breeders... not so much from a rehome view... more because people feel how the OP does about them living here... but there are alot of people keep them and keep them extremely well.. there are Aldabra's too... radiated... just to name a few.... because of the bad rap these people have had many of the keepers will no longer comment on forums.... 

I own Stars... they get out for maybe 2 months and only in the daytime.... should i not keep them? 

2-3 years ago we had a run of bad cold wet summers.... the tortoises didn't get out much at all.... they didn't suffer though and no ill effects were noted....

The UV rating also isn't very good here... most days sitting at a 4 or a 5.... but i use combined bulbs.... and vitamin suppliments including D3...

There are different ways to keep these animals is what i guess i am saying... yes it would be easier to be in a warmer climate... but i'm not in one... so i have to make the best of what i have... and use the equipment that i do in order to keep the animals healthy... in my eyes that does not mean i should be limited to say a Hermanns tortoise....

Don't get me wrong i am not saying that tortoises should stay indoors.... i get mine out... for the time i can... but if i can't i back it up with the next best thing... big enclosures... combined bulbs... good food... suppliments... heaters.... etc...

So should i stop keeping certain species?


----------



## Tom (Jan 29, 2010)

stells said:


> The way i read it you are saying that people who live in a colder climate shouldn't own reptiles...
> 
> Not everyone can be tarred with the same brush...



I'm saying no such thing. I'm saying nobody anywhere should buy an animal that they cannot properly provide for. 

The example of Polar Bears and Penguins in zoos was used. Have you seen the Penguin Encounter at the San Diego Zoo? That is most certainly an example of an animal not suited to an area's climate, but still being housed correctly. The enclosure is big enough and the environment is very well controlled with multiple back-up systems in place.

Just about any animal can be properly housed anywhere in the world, its more a question of logistics and practicality. Not to mention expense. If you live in Antarctica and want a herd of Galopagos Torts, it CAN be done. I certainly couldn't afford to do it, but some people could.

It makes more sense to me to buy smaller species that can be comfortably kept indoors as full grown adults for the colder parts of the year or hibernating species if you live in an apartment/condo situation or a cold-climate area. What I'm getting at is, how is someone in a cold climate area going to house a 100 pound bruiser of a tort indoors over the winter, without devoting an entire reinforced room to them? I don't think most people will do this, although it can be done.

The point of bringing up this debate is not to tar anybody with any brush, but to get "newbies" to seriously consider what they are getting into and get the "old-hands" thinking about how best to steer the general public in the right direction. Don't we all want a world where people choose the correct tort for their situation and then house and care for it correctly for its entire life? That is all I'm after here.


----------



## chadk (Jan 29, 2010)

From what i've seen with torts in need of rescue, it has to do with a few key things.

1) kids get cute torts as pets, but lose interest and the parent or child get's rid of it
2) people have life changes that make it hard to keep the tort any longer. 
3) people realize they are not the best tort parent and hope to find a better home 
4) or the tort is not doing well and they dump the sick animal on someone else

Of my 3 sullies, one was not taken care of and was not growing and thriving. The the owner realized he needed a better home. The other 2 were from caring homes who had big life changes, like the loss of job, that forced them to move and could not take the tort with them. In one case, the tried, moved with the tort, but had to move to a small apartment. They realised it wasn't good for the tort, so they found a better home.

I'm committed to my torts, but if I lose my job and home, I have to do what is best for my family. I pray it never happens. But if the day comes, I may have to find new homes for many, if not all of my animals.

As for the idea of climate and all that... I think it is just another factor when considering any pet. There are breeds of dogs that have no business in an apartment setting and other breeds that would thrive there. Then there are those who are able to provide for that breeds needs while living in an apartment by ensuring the dog's needs are being met in creative ways. 

When considering to get a big tort like a sullie, you have to consider many factors and plan ahead. If you live in Alaska, you'll have a month or so of decent natural sun, so you better have a good plan for a heated indoor area with plenty of room to get exercise. Most folks in alaska would not be able to pull that off. But some could. It is about doing your homework, not making impulse decisions, and having a realistic plan.

Personally, I think a bigger issue is all the young kids and even college kids getting these bigger torts. Knowing that you are not stable in your job or your home situation. Then having to relocate youself and your tort over and over. Then comes marriage, kids, etc etc. Lots of big life changes coming. I know, when you are that age you think you have things figured out, but I'm sure most here over the age of 30 will tend to agree...


----------



## Tom (Jan 29, 2010)

-ryan- said:


> I just feel that too many people think that their experiences cover everyone's experiences. My experience has been that, with russians, an indoor setup of suitable size with good heat and about 8-9" of soil will result in healthy animals that grow quickly and reproduce like rabbits. I don't use UVB and I can't keep them outside all summer (too many human predators prowling the backyard), and I explain my motives for such things, but I don't tell people that is how they need to keep them. It's just been my experience.
> 
> That being said, I live in upstate new york where the ground is frozen quite a bit of the time, and we have a big problem with people going into our backyard and taking/harming things. We have a creek that runs through our backyard, and this past summer the neighborhood hoodlums took several water snakes, snapping turtles, and amphibians directly from our backyard, killed a very large female water snake, and injured a duck by throwing a rock at it. They also tore apart a section of our retaining wall, and threw the bricks into the creek (at the snakes). I caught them a couple of times and spoke with some parents, but it's just sickening to think of what would happen if they came upon my tortoises in their pen. I am hoping that in the next couple years I will be able to move somewhere a little safer for the animals (though also a little more urban) where I can build large, secure outdoor habitats that the animals can use all summer. But right now I think I am doing what is best for the animals by keeping them indoors and only out in the pens when I am around to keep an eye on them.
> 
> It all has to do with the situation you are faced with, so that's why I don't really accept broad statements based on personal belief. I do feel that my animals will have it better when I can keep them outdoors more, but I also see great little tortoises that grow and reproduce, so that is how I gauge their health.



Ryan. As a fellow tortoise keeper and forum member, I consider you a friend, even though we've never met. As your friend, I'm telling you, you need move. It would be a tragedy to have something bad happen to any of your animals, but it would be worse to have something happen to you. You are courting disaster if that's the kind of area you live in. I know because I grew up in a pretty rough area too. Hawthorne/Inglewood/Gardena anyone? I got out and you can too. You are aware that there are parts of the country where that kind of non-sense doesn't have to be tolerated aren't you? 

In any case I feel bad for anyone who has to live somewhere where they can't put a beloved pet outside for fear of human predation.

I just re-read what I've written here and I want to make sure you know that I don't intend this to be condescending in any way. I'm being genuine here. I'm still haunted by the things that happened in my old neighborhood years ago. I don't want to see anything bad happen to someone who seems like a good person.



chadk said:


> From what i've seen with torts in need of rescue, it has to do with a few key things.
> 
> 1) kids get cute torts as pets, but lose interest and the parent or child get's rid of it
> 2) people have life changes that make it hard to keep the tort any longer.
> ...



Very well put Chad. You voiced what I was trying to get across better than I could.


----------



## harris (Jan 29, 2010)

I live in Northern Ohio, so unfortunately my tortoises only get to spend a good 4 months outdoors. Fortunately I am single so I have my house all to myself. So, the different species of tortoises and turtles that I keep have their own rooms, set up to their native land's environment as close as possible. The Redfoot's room is probably the most elaborate, which contains a waterfall, tons of tropical plants, and the works. If I could not do this, I imagine I would only keep species native to my region.


----------



## Tom (Jan 29, 2010)

harris said:


> I live in Northern Ohio, so unfortunately my tortoises only get to spend a good 4 months outdoors. Fortunately I am single so I have my house all to myself. So, the different species of tortoises and turtles that I keep have their own rooms, set up to their native land's environment as close as possible. The Redfoot's room is probably the most elaborate, which contains a waterfall, tons of tropical plants, and the works. If I could not do this, I imagine I would only keep species native to my region.


 Harris, that sounds fantastic. I'd love to see pics. PM me for a direct e-mail if you don't want to post. I've got family in Newton Falls. Is that any where near you?


----------



## terryo (Jan 29, 2010)

harris said:


> I live in Northern Ohio, so unfortunately my tortoises only get to spend a good 4 months outdoors. Fortunately I am single so I have my house all to myself. So, the different species of tortoises and turtles that I keep have their own rooms, set up to their native land's environment as close as possible. The Redfoot's room is probably the most elaborate, which contains a waterfall, tons of tropical plants, and the works. If I could not do this, I imagine I would only keep species native to my region.



Oh Come on Harris...Now you have to post some pictures...pleaseeeeeeeee! I would especially be interested in seeing your Redfoot enclosure, and I'm sure everyone else on here wants to see everything.


----------



## -ryan- (Jan 29, 2010)

Roachman26 said:


> Ryan. As a fellow tortoise keeper and forum member, I consider you a friend, even though we've never met. As your friend, I'm telling you, you need move. It would be a tragedy to have something bad happen to any of your animals, but it would be worse to have something happen to you. You are courting disaster if that's the kind of area you live in. I know because I grew up in a pretty rough area too. Hawthorne/Inglewood/Gardena anyone? I got out and you can too. You are aware that there are parts of the country where that kind of non-sense doesn't have to be tolerated aren't you?
> 
> In any case I feel bad for anyone who has to live somewhere where they can't put a beloved pet outside for fear of human predation.
> 
> I just re-read what I've written here and I want to make sure you know that I don't intend this to be condescending in any way. I'm being genuine here. I'm still haunted by the things that happened in my old neighborhood years ago. I don't want to see anything bad happen to someone who seems like a good person.



Thanks. It means a lot to me to hear that, because I know I consider everyone on here to be a friend. Even when we have different opinions or disagreements, we are all really after the same goal.

The scariest part is that we live in a 'good' neighborhood. 'Good' meaning the school districts are allegedly good, the houses are not cheap, and the majority of the people are in the middle class. I think the problems with property damage and the threat of physical harm to me or my animals lies in the fact that there are too many bored, violent teenagers in the neighborhood. We live just outside of Rochester, which is the murder and arson capital of new york state, so we do have some problems with people coming into the neighborhood at night and walking around the house trying to find a way in (we find out the next morning when the gates are open and there are footprints around the house, stopping at all the doors and windows). Of course we don't know for sure that they are from downtown, but it's unsettling none the less.

I am moving in a couple of years, and where I move to will depend on where I can find work, but it would be nice to live in the country. If I have to move closer to the city (due to financial conditions), I have a couple of areas mapped out that are not bad.

You can imagine the kind of paranoia and OCD that I have developed. I check that all the doors are locked several times before I leave the house. We have never had an incident (other than the kids, and someone breaking into my truck), but I would love to live somewhere I could have the tortoises outdoors. They are happy for now.

I appreciate your concern.


----------



## tortoisenerd (Jan 29, 2010)

I keep my Russian yearling inside 24/7 and I think he is thriving. I think with enough money and time you can keep small breeds 99% happy. I would love to have him outside but realistically we won't have a yard for awhile, and I waited many years to get a tortoise until I was more responsible, financially stable (money put aside for potential vet bills and the about $1,000 I spent so far on him and all his stuff and care), out of college and not moving around, new I could make a life-long commitment, etc. I know that Trevor would thrive even more outdoors, but with a MVB and a lot of space, etc, he is doing awesome. If he was outside I also wouldn't get to spend so much time with him.  He gets attention each time we walk between the living room and kitchen. I do agree Sulcatas and other large breeds should never be indoor pets. I did a lot of thinking about the keeping a tort indoors thing and originally all the info out there made me put off my purchase for awhile, but then I saw some people on this forum and other places that do it and succeed, so I thought I'd try! Someday when I have a yard and live in a warm climate I'd love to provide a home for a Sulcata who needs one (I don't believe in supporting Sulcata breeders), but I fear that day will never come. I don't think I'd want the challenge of having to house them in a cooler climate, and I know they need a huge yard and many people underestimate that.


----------



## Shelly (Jan 29, 2010)

tortoisenerd said:


> about $1,000 I spent so far on him and all his stuff and care)



Wow.


----------



## harris (Feb 1, 2010)

My apologies Roachman and Terryo for the delayed response. My only computer access is at my office here at work. Yep, I'm trapped in 1985, so I don't have one at home. That being said, I don't own a camera either, so I have no pictures to share other than some glossy one's taken by my Olympus I had awhile back. My neighbor keeps up on all the gadgets. Maybe I'll see if he wants to shoot some photos and teach me how to upload them. Stay tuned I guess. And Roachman, I'm about a half n hour from you in Kent.


----------



## Annieski (Mar 18, 2010)

IMO,the biggest factor in this discussion is that it ressembles "the Preacher-- preaching to the choir". Every one here already has a connection, and hopefully uses the forum for "friendly" debates and exchange of husbandry and useful info. I wish I had been smarter to find this forum before I acquired Mortimer[experience is the best teacher]. Do I think it would have changed my mind in taking her? I think not---but I would have been better prepared[even though I knew what I had to do for her while she made her way from Michigan]. I do believe the only way to prepare a potential owner is at the SOURCE of purchase--and I think the person who sold Mortimer [3 month hatchling=$120.00] to my son would have told him anything to make the sale.


----------



## chairman (Mar 18, 2010)

Well, personally, I think anyone who lets their tortoise outside is out of their mind. Don't you all know that sunlight can cause cancer? Especially in CA, where everything has been shown to cause cancer. And what about the outdoor air quality compared to your nice, filtered, indoor air? Just think of what you're making your poor tort breath in out there. (Is that better, Annieski?  )

But really, yes, most animals kept as pets benefit from some outdoor time, not just tortoises.

As for the rest... be proactive about getting proper tortoise care information out there. Post the occasional ad on your local craigslist pet section with a link to the forum. Put together a nice little tortoiseforum flyer (does the forum have an ad slick?) and keep your local petstore stocked with it- even offer to let them know which commercially available products are good for torts so they still get to have newbies drop tons of money on setups in their stores. Or, heck, start a part-time business building outdoor enclosures for tortoises for just slightly more than cost. You won't make any money that way, but at least you can get a good setup going. Just, PLEASE, don't ask for legislation... I don't want to see a bill requiring outdoor pens for tortoises floating on any legislative dockets as a result of this. There are enough crazy laws as is.


----------



## Tom (Mar 18, 2010)

Annieski said:


> IMO,the biggest factor in this discussion is that it ressembles "the Preacher-- preaching to the choir". Every one here already has a connection, and hopefully uses the forum for "friendly" debates and exchange of husbandry and useful info. I wish I had been smarter to find this forum before I acquired Mortimer[experience is the best teacher]. Do I think it would have changed my mind in taking her? I think not---but I would have been better prepared[even though I knew what I had to do for her while she made her way from Michigan]. I do believe the only way to prepare a potential owner is at the SOURCE of purchase--and I think the person who sold Mortimer [3 month hatchling=$120.00] to my son would have told him anything to make the sale.



I think its pretty unanimous that everybody here wishes they had found this forum sooner. 

I have seen a couple of people lately who have joined the forum and are asking all the right questions BEFORE getting a tortoise. If I was rich I'd send them each a million dollars.


----------



## ChiKat (Mar 18, 2010)

Roachman26 said:


> I have seen a couple of people lately who have joined the forum and are asking all the right questions BEFORE getting a tortoise. If I was rich I'd send them each a million dollars.



I joined before I got my first tortoise. If you would like to send me a monetary donation I would gladly accept it.


----------



## goodsmeagol (Mar 18, 2010)

I keep a Russian indoors.
I wanted a tortoise for years, however every time I entered a species name into google, it returned back a massive size requiring a huge cage. So I went with a Bearded Dragon, in a 4ftx2ft cage, perfect! Then I found Russians and the indoor size requirements I could meet. 
So for me, I did not get a tortoise because I thought ahead to the outdoor pen, however found the Russian to be a good indoor species.
I agree, if you are going to get a pet, it needs to be one whos needs you can meet, through out its life.

edit:
after reading this thread, I do plan to set up some sort of outdoor balcony cage limited time will be spent however I will make sure some.


----------



## Tom (Mar 18, 2010)

ChiKat said:


> Roachman26 said:
> 
> 
> > I have seen a couple of people lately who have joined the forum and are asking all the right questions BEFORE getting a tortoise. If I was rich I'd send them each a million dollars.
> ...



Okay. When I win the lottery, you are first on the list.


----------



## bubbles1 (Jul 31, 2010)

emysemys said:


> When I first joined this forum, my mantra was that tortoises needed to be outside. Period.
> 
> Most of my initial posts started out with...,"Tortoises need to be outside, but if you have to keep them in the house for whatever reason..."
> 
> ...



After finishing our outdoor RT enclsoure (8ftx20ft) with a prey proof hardwire top I am looking into heating the outdoor enclosure. I would like to keep them out there until Sept. early Oct. I have looked into pig blankets, bulbs, and straw. I was thinking about a dog house with a pig blanket in it or straw. I leave for work at 7am in 2 weeks and at that time it is too cold to put them out. I usually put them out around 10ish when it is 80 degrees. I'd like them to stay outside during the day but worry about them being cold in the early morning. I live in Indiana. Would a dog house with straw be warm enough until Sept. or early Oct? Would a dog house with a pig blanket be warmer? Using a bulb kinda scares me fire wise. Thanks!


----------



## DoctorCosmonaut (Jul 31, 2010)

Why debate/say "I'm saying nobody anywhere should buy an animal that they cannot properly provide for."? Seems pretty obvious... I don't think anyone thinks people should have pets they can't care for.

But I don't think that statement has a connection to local. People can build pretty impressive indoor habitats, season outdoor ones, etc. I bet you a lot more people have healthier indoor torts than some who have outdoor enclosured ones.


----------



## Missy (Jul 31, 2010)

Wow every opinion I read I say yea I can see what your saying. I have a sulcata that when I got him it was a spur of the moment decision because I was out of state visiting my daughter and a U.S. Sailor was being deployed and gave Tank to me. He was a couple months old and he told me he would get huge. I have always had turtles growing up and had a little girl dream of one day having a giant tortoise. I took Tank home and only by the grace of God he survived. I had no idea how to take care of him properly. Every time I thought I was doing things right I later found out I was wrong. Thank heaven I now feel confident that I am on the right track. I agree with Toms original thought that sulcata is very tough little guys because if not Tank never would of made it through that first year of my ignorance. As far as breeding them I dont disagree with Toms view but I wish people would at least try to adopt first. I think anyone that can afford and properly care for an animal should do so if their hearts desire. One day I would love to have another tort but after reading everyone view I will try and find a breed that fits my climate better, although my heart is set on a Leopard but we will see. This has been a great debate and thanks for all opinions. This is how we learn from each other


----------



## franeich (Jul 31, 2010)

I think everyone should think about it from the animals perspective. If you were a tortoise would you want to live indoors with fake sun light or outside in the fresh air.


----------



## Terry Allan Hall (Jul 31, 2010)

Agree that torts should be outside as much as possible, and that where you're living should determine your tort choice.

That being said, as much as I love sulcatas, I know that very few people should ever own one, due to their size potential...and a lot of sulcata owners do, indeed, eventually dump their pet when it gets sufficiently huge/destructive! 

I recall reading that only about 1 out of every 250 remain w/ the original owner...think about that number for a minute!

Same problem w/ Burmese pythons...cute and gentle when they're small, but once they hit 10 feet (about 1-1/2 to 2 years old), they get dumped...Amongst my pet pythons, I am fostering 11 extra Burms at the moment that outgrew their homes, and have 6 more that are "offered" to me (like I really need 17 extra Burms) and if I can't find homes for them, the choice is having more giant snakes than I can realistically keep or they get euthanized (or set free...read up on southern Florida's Burm problems)!

It'd've been much simpler if the wannabe snake owner had chosen a smaller species for their forever pet (nothing wrong w/ a Royal ("Ball") python or a cornsnake...something that could spend it's entire life in a 20L tank!)

Education IS the answer, but so is responsible breeding practices. 

My $.02 worth.


----------



## RV's mom (Aug 1, 2010)

We were of the "gee - we want a tort" crowd (all our lives!) and finally bought RV from the local pet store. We didn't know squat about the breed, other than we were told she'd get big and dig. They were that honest. So we came home and read. And read, and read some more from all the various pages of tortoise care sheets. It was confusing, as there were conflicting ideas of diet and such. We did our best with RV, and admit she was a 'tank tort' for most of her early life. Grass got deep in the back yard and we 'lost' her once when she dug in for the night. I'm happy we live in an environment where she has more 'good' days outside than bad, worry constantly when the temps on the back porch read 118 and worry more when we have a hard frost. I have no way to wrestle her out of her den and into the house. The back yard is her habitat, and we roll with it. I don't know what to say about climate and torts. If I were smart, I'd likely have a desert tort - something that actually lives in the climate where I live. but I have RV and I'm not giving her up til I die. 

teri


----------



## Lilithlee (Aug 12, 2010)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> Agree that torts should be outside as much as possible, and that where you're living should determine your tort choice.
> 
> That being said, as much as I love sulcatas, I know that very few people should ever own one, due to their size potential...and a lot of sulcata owners do, indeed, eventually dump their pet when it gets sufficiently huge/destructive!
> 
> ...



I was just going to say something about the Burmese pythons, I just watched on animal plant how there is a team in FL that is too hunt and kill them, because the problem had become so outrageous. 

All I have to say on the subject research is key to buying( or owning) any animal, even if it's as simple as a frog.


----------



## Yourlocalpoet (Aug 12, 2010)

Tom said:


> If you agree with the premise that turtles and tortoises are primarily an outdoor pet, then your local climate should be playing a big part in which ones you decide to keep. I'm dying to have a herd of Burmese Blacks, but they'd eventually have to live outside and my area is just not right for them. Sooooo, I don't buy any.



I agree with the above premise, yes they are primarily an outdoor pet so why did I get a Leopard all those years ago? Because I'm selfish and wanted the pretty tortoise in my English garden? Yes, probably why does anyone keep a pet. Thing is like you and everyone else on this forum I love tortoises and I couldn't imagine not having one, having said this my local climate is not exactly akin to Africa. In fact there's nothing quite like a slate grey English sky, however I do the very best I can.
I'm curious Tom, if you decided to move to our little island would you still keep Sulcatas? Or would you use the reasoning for not buying the Burmese Blacks and not keep reptiles at all?


----------



## Tom (Aug 12, 2010)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > If you agree with the premise that turtles and tortoises are primarily an outdoor pet, then your local climate should be playing a big part in which ones you decide to keep. I'm dying to have a herd of Burmese Blacks, but they'd eventually have to live outside and my area is just not right for them. Sooooo, I don't buy any.
> ...



I've actually given this some thought. If I sold my CA property, I'd be rich in most parts of our country over here and I could build a huge building with heated floors and such.

The thing is, I hate our relatively mild CA winters, so I would never live somewhere like the UK or the Northern US. I HATE three kinds of weather: Cold, overcast and windy. If I get two out of the three, I'm not happy. If I get hit with all three, I'm positively miserable until it passes. There is a reason why Seattle is the suicide capitol of the US.

If I moved to the UK, I could get my Mep's!

I just went back and re-read this whole thread. Its a pretty good one, but I think I stepped on a lot of toes pretty early on in my TFO membership.


----------



## Yourlocalpoet (Aug 13, 2010)

Tom said:


> Yourlocalpoet said:
> 
> 
> > Tom said:
> ...



I like you Tom and I respect your opinions based on your wealthy experiences with tortoises, I also appreciate the sentiment of this thread. When I first read the original post I expected replies of defence from people who live in colder climates and I too thought, 'Oh right so all us in the UK shouldn't keep tortoises!' But after reading it again, it appears your main motivation (to me) was not to make anyone feel inadequate (which you kinda did) about their tortoise keeping, but more of a frustration about the 'taboo' associated with breeding Sulcatas (or any other tortoise for that matter) which is caused by the increasing number of unwanted tortoises around. And while I completely agree with you education is the answer and not the persecution of breeders such as yourself, people are stupid, you can only educate those who want to learn and unfortunately with the abundance of pet shops a cute little tortoise is hard to resist. 
Maybe instead of a ban on species a 'tortoise theory test' should be introduced, then when you pass you get given a 100lb Sulcata to take for a test drive, after a day of destruction and devastation in your back yard or your living room you give it back and then decide whether you still want the cute baby?


----------



## harris (Aug 13, 2010)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> Maybe instead of a ban on species a 'tortoise theory test' should be introduced, then when you pass you get given a 100lb Sulcata to take for a test drive, after a day of destruction and devastation in your back yard or your living room you give it back and then decide whether you still want the cute baby?



Quite possibly the best sentence I've ever read on this forum.


----------



## Terry Allan Hall (Aug 14, 2010)

harris said:


> Yourlocalpoet said:
> 
> 
> > _*Maybe instead of a ban on species a 'tortoise theory test' should be introduced, then when you pass you get given a 100lb Sulcata to take for a test drive, after a day of destruction and devastation in your back yard or your living room you give it back and then decide whether you still want the cute baby?*_
> ...



Smart idea, actually!


----------

