# Breeding subspecies purist or not?



## porter (Sep 17, 2012)

Hi all, I was just wondering on what people's views are on breeding subspecies of tortoises together. In my case I have one female cherry head with two northern females and one northern male. The reason I ask is that I've been advised to separate my cherry, I told my other half this and she reply'd "in that case should people of different race not be allowed to reproduce with each other? Isn't the human race full of subspecies?"
This got me thinking.....
What about you guys??


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## Neal (Sep 17, 2012)

It all boils down to a personal decision. If I had a pure subspecies of a certain type of tortoise, I would want to match it as closely as a could with a mate from the same area to preserve physical and temperamental genetic traits. I'm a breeder, and "pure" animals hold a lot more value that mutts.

As far as humans compared to tortoises, I think it's an apples and oranges comparison for a few reasons. 

1 - Human genetic pools aren't as threatened as some tortoises. 
2 - Physical attraction appears to have no influence on tortoises like it does people. 
3 - You'd have to make the argument that different races are in fact, subspecies, which isn't the case (as far as I know). There is great physical variety in some tortoises of the same subspecies. You will probably never see any "purists" arguing that only tortoises of the same subspecies that have the same carapace pattern should be bred together.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Sep 17, 2012)

Some species have subspecies with overlapping ranges, while others have adjacent ranges that are parapatric, or don't touch. For example, the three subspecies of Hermann tortoises are parapatric. Box turtles, however, naturally mix in zones of intergradation.

Therefore, depending on the species, it is technically not unnatural to cross subspecies, because they may do so in the wild. However, it's better to keep subspecies pure in captivity, so that we can keep track of where they're from and what they need, and possibly so that they may be used for conservation at some point in the future.


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## porter (Sep 17, 2012)

I see what you mean with regards to value, I should imagine that this relates to a large amount of animals such as dogs. with regards to tortoise subspecies numbers being under threat, would breeding a pure or thorough bred subspecies of tortoise not eventually lead to that animal becoming inbred? Thus causing more issues to that subspecies? Just another thought.
With regards to the comparison to humans I know that it is ridicules to compare the two, but from my knowledge the difference between a cherry and northern red is location, colouring, and some difference in language (head bobbing) but then again this could be then applied to humans for example someone from Europe and someone from Asia. Location, skin tone and language are different.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Sep 17, 2012)

porter said:


> I see what you mean with regards to value, I should imagine that this relates to a large amount of animals such as dogs. with regards to tortoise subspecies numbers being under threat, would breeding a pure or thorough bred subspecies of tortoise not eventually lead to that animal becoming inbred? Thus causing more issues to that subspecies? Just another thought.



Remember, you can breed within a given subspecies and not develop inbreeding depression. Only if the stock you're using come from the same family or maybe population do you risk inbreeding. Otherwise, breeding within the subspecies is safe and preferable.



> With regards to the comparison to humans I know that it is ridicules to compare the two, but from my knowledge the difference between a cherry and northern red is location, colouring, and some difference in language (head bobbing) but then again this could be then applied to humans for example someone from Europe and someone from Asia. Location, skin tone and language are different.



It's all about the genetic distance. Humans are a polymorphic species, meaning we come in many shapes and colors. However, all that morphological diversity is achieved with relatively little genetic diversity. Two people on opposite sides of the planet are more closely related to each other than are two gorillas on opposite sides of the same forest, which is why all humans are in the same subspecies, _Homo sapiens sapiens_.


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## Tom (Sep 17, 2012)

Humans are all one species, no subspecies, that exhibit different morphological traits based on location of origin.

A different subspecies of tortoise is a totally different thing than two humans from different continents.

My argument is that it is quite difficult to get these animals into our hands anymore. I think the genetic diversity that we have should be revered and preserved.


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## porter (Sep 17, 2012)

Just to confirm I'm not being racist in anyway or form towards humans or tortoises lol just making sure I don't come across this way, that would be terrible. 
I've just came across this 

"1) All dogs are of the same species, (Canis lupus familiaris). They can interbreed and produce virile offspring, unlike mules. But yet there are breeds, separation among the species itself, in which looks, size, intelligence, speed, smell, color and emotion differ," 

Accesed on 17/09/2012 , "kyrimshaik 2008" available from http://answers.yahoo.com/my/qa/index;_ylt=AkSx8n1PwkRqYGNYYujwzm_._Nw4;_ylv=3?show=xEZChMxZaa 

Could this apply to other animal species?


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## Tom (Sep 17, 2012)

porter said:


> Just to confirm I'm not being racist in anyway or form towards humans or tortoises lol just making sure I don't come across this way



Not at all. No one here is gonna go that direction.


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## porter (Sep 17, 2012)

That's ok then i'm just doing some research into this topic and it appears that some people can and do take offence to such conversation's,


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Sep 17, 2012)

porter said:


> Just to confirm I'm not being racist in anyway or form towards humans or tortoises lol just making sure I don't come across this way, that would be terrible.
> I've just came across this
> 
> "1) All dogs are of the same species, (Canis lupus familiaris). They can interbreed and produce virile offspring, unlike mules. But yet there are breeds, separation among the species itself, in which looks, size, intelligence, speed, smell, color and emotion differ,"
> ...



Yes, all dogs are domestic wolves, belonging to one subspecies, _Canis lupus familiaris_. Dog breeds are incredibly diverse morphologically, but their genetic distance is even smaller than among the different races/clines of humans.

Canids in general, and wolves/dogs in particular, are unique among carnivorans in having many chromosomes (78) and many different alleles - or versions of genes - that affect growth rates. Dog breeds differ in size, snout shape, fur length, and color. All of these differences are achieved with only a few mutations in a few genes.

Other domesticated animals (cats, cows, goldfish, etc.) may also contain different breeds, but the dog is unique in how many breeds it contains, and how different the breeds can be from one another. And yet, they're all artificially selected domestic wolves! 

This is in contrast to naturally occurring subspecies, which may have fewer morphological differences, but more genetic differences.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 17, 2012)

I'm a purist and a tortoise snob.

I have 5 different types of terrapene and each type is in its own pen. I asked Egyptian Dan to tell me what sub species of steppe tortoise I have, and I adopted out everything except the K (can't spell it) kind. My SA leopards and my babcocki will live in different enclosures when the SA's are big enough to graduate to a bigger pen. My Manouria are in two different pens - Mep and Mee.

I haven't learned how to tell the different species of Gopherus apart yet, so I may have them mixed together, but I'm thinking they're all Gopherus agassizii.

Because I'm a snob, I frown upon mixing/breeding any sub-species. But I try to keep my displeasure to myself, as I believe in live and let live.


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## Neal (Sep 17, 2012)

emysemys said:


> I believe in live and let live.



But, if this ever changing world in which we live in makes you give in and cry?


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## Laurie (Sep 17, 2012)

porter said:


> That's ok then i'm just doing some research into this topic and it appears that some people can and do take offence to such conversation's,


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Sep 17, 2012)

Neal said:


> emysemys said:
> 
> 
> > I believe in live and let live.
> ...



Say Live and Let Die!


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## Laurie (Sep 17, 2012)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> Say Live and Let Die!



Great, this is going to be stuck in my head all day....


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Sep 17, 2012)

emysemys said:


> I'm a purist and a tortoise snob.
> 
> I have 5 different types of terrapene and each type is in its own pen. I asked Egyptian Dan to tell me what sub species of steppe tortoise I have, and I adopted out everything except the K (can't spell it) kind. My SA leopards and my babcocki will live in different enclosures when the SA's are big enough to graduate to a bigger pen. My Manouria are in two different pens - Mep and Mee.
> 
> ...



LOL ... Yvonne, that's not snobbery. It's prudence. These animals come from far-flung parts of the continent, even the world. Better to let them mate with individuals more like the kind they would have bred with in the wild.

BTW - The subspecies taxonomy of the Russian tortoise is a mess (please see Fabian's and my comments in ""Russian Sub Species"). However, I think you were right to take the cautious approach when it comes to breeding your Russians.


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## porter (Sep 17, 2012)

It seems like keeping subspecies in groups of their own kind is the more admired view. Anyone for mixing?? Lol Laurie 
I haven't offended you have I? I hope not


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## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 17, 2012)

Laurie said:


> porter said:
> 
> 
> > That's ok then i'm just doing some research into this topic and it appears that some people can and do take offence to such conversation's,


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Sep 17, 2012)

Laurie said:


> GeoTerraTestudo said:
> 
> 
> > Say Live and Let Die!
> ...



Has been for me, too. Thanks a lot, Neal.


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## Madkins007 (Sep 17, 2012)

There are lots of things tied up in this issue, but for me, I am also a purist... right now.

I think there will come a time for cross-breeds, but we are fairly new at tortoise genetics even though humans have kept tortoises for longer than lots of other pets. 

As we get to understand them better, there will almost certainly be certain kinds of crosses that will develop-
- Crosses for unusual and interesting coloration. (I personally AM NOT a fan of this, even in snakes or cats, but that is beside the point. The interest and money in this sort of thing can finance a lot of good programs and research.)
- Crosses to make better 'pets', such as smaller breeds, more cold-hardy breeds, etc. Imagine a true 'dwarf' red-footed that only hit 5-6", or one that could hibernate in cold climes.

One of the problems I personally have with most tortoise crosses is that they are not done for any higher purpose- it is often the result of not having separate spaces or something more than a real, managed effort. Often, colorful crossed individuals are sold as if they were carefully bred, but actually are just accidents. 

The sad part of that is that the result is basically a mutt. We don't know enough about its genetic history to set up a solid breeding program or if it has any hidden characteristics we want to build on.

For a thousand reasons, we cannot compare the tortoise breeding situation with dogs, but I am going to use them as a rough example.

When we get a load of tortoises imported, they are generally pretty purebred. The good breeders that buy from the importers in bulk are usually pretty careful to keep lots together to maintain the genes. Lots of casual keepers are buying the babies from these breeders and mixing them rather willy-nilly.

If these were dogs, the big-scale breeders would have pure Jack Russells and poodles and dachshunds. The casual keepers are letting them breed. This would be one thing if it was an intentional effort to get a specific result, such as a breed better suited to apartment living, or one with lower maintenance or fewer health issues- but in too many cases, we are just letting them breed- just because. We end up with lots of mutts with no real pedigree or even a good history we can use so they can be tracked and possibly used in future programs. Sure- some of the mutts will be more valuable than others for some reason, but most will end up in the 'Free Puppies' ads.


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