# Silly Question on Leaf Litter



## Balboa (Nov 13, 2010)

With all the leaves dropping I was thinking hot diggity, I'm gonna gather those up and put a bunch in the enclosures, more naturalistic, awesome!

Then I had one of those unsure Newb moments.

Should I separate out the poisonous ones? Obviously no Rhodie or Fotinia leaves are going in, at least I wasn't planning on it.

I have a ton of plum tree leaves though, which are technically poisonous, maybe shouldn't go in either.

Any thoughts? Do any of you who do use leaf litter make sure to only use non-poison types, or do you just rake it all up?

Thanks


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## Kristina (Nov 13, 2010)

I just rake it all up, but really I only have oak and maple in my mix. 

As far as poisonous ones - I have never seen any of my torts eat the leaves. Also, because they are dead and dried out, there probably isn't much in the way of toxins left in them.

I guess safe is always better than sorry. I use a lot of leaf litter myself. I have it in with my Hingebacks, Redfoots, and Box turtles. In fact the substrate in the Box turtle enclosure is more leaf litter than anything else - after awhile of them walking around on it and burrowing through it, it gets mulched up pretty well. I dump worms in there and it is fun to see the Boxies "swimming" through the leaves after the worms. I spray my enclosures with a garden sprayer every morning before I feed, and the leaves help hold the humidity and they love to hide in them.


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## Edna (Nov 13, 2010)

I'm fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to have a source for straight cottonwood leaves. I know that my horses used to eat the cottonwood leaves fresh or yellow/brown; trappers and mountain men used to cut down cottonwoods in winter to provide browse for their horses. I added just a few to Torty's enclosure and he has enjoyed them. He stomps through them and sounds like a mega-beast!


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## Madkins007 (Nov 13, 2010)

The big one that may not be obvious otherwise is oak. Oak leaves, acorns, etc. are toxic, although the most dangerous part for most tortoises is oak tree shoots, which they do seem to eat on occasion.


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## Tom (Nov 13, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> The big one that may not be obvious otherwise is oak. Oak leaves, acorns, etc. are toxic, although the most dangerous part for most tortoises is oak tree shoots, which they do seem to eat on occasion.



I'd never heard that. We all feed dead, dry, "seasoned" oak leaves to our roach colonies. Any species of oak will do. Supposed to be really good for them.


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## moswen (Nov 14, 2010)

i;ve never heard of using leaves as substrate before, that's a really awesome idea! however, right now all i have is oak trees... that sucks.


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## jackrat (Nov 14, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> The big one that may not be obvious otherwise is oak. Oak leaves, acorns, etc. are toxic, although the most dangerous part for most tortoises is oak tree shoots, which they do seem to eat on occasion.


I've read that oak is toxic. Unfortunatly,I read it after my outdoor enclosure was built under three massive red oaks! LOL I don't doubt that they are poisonous to torts if they ate enough. Mine will eat the occasional acorn or oak shoot and they love using a big pile of leaves for a hide. No ill effects so far. Which is good for me because oaks are the only shade trees I have.


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## Madkins007 (Nov 14, 2010)

You also need to remember that toxic is not the same thing as fatal. 

A lot of animals regularly eat oak and acorns as an important part of their diet, it is just listed in Mader's Big Book O'Medicine as one of the few common "known to be toxic to reptiles" plants.


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## GBtortoises (Nov 15, 2010)

I've used shredded oak, poplar and maple leaves mixed with organic soil and coconut coir for years as a substrate for all of my baby and young tortoises. I've never seen any indication whatsoever that any of them have been harmed by the oak leaves. As with the majority of plants and leaves, usually a very, very large amount needs to be consumed for any toxins to have any effect. When outdoors my adults will often consume leaves that blow into their enclosures from the same above species mentioned of trees. Again, I've never seen any indication of problems. 
Although having said the above, it is also always a good idea to stay away from "known" toxic plants around tortoises and other animals wheneve possible to avoid any potential problems.


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## Balboa (Nov 15, 2010)

Thanks for all the input guys, that's about what I expected, just doubting myself.

I'll rake up all I can, but may not take so many of the plum, just in case.


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## chadk (Nov 16, 2010)

Indoor or outdoor enclosure? Indoors, be careful what you are bringing in with the leaves - a handful of leaves around here and you have slugs, snails, pill bugs, spiders, etc coming with it. 
When I was in Texas, leaf raking was always more interesting because we often found big snakes laying under our piles...

Anyway, i'd be hesitant to bring leaves indoors, but my boxie and russian tort outdoor pens are my dumping ground for the maple leaves I rake up - great insulation layer for the winter... (and attracts lots of bugs and worms for the boxies).


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## Balboa (Nov 16, 2010)

Actually I'm counting on it Chad, I want those slugs, snails, pill bugs and spiders. With the bio-active substrate I've already deliberately put in lots of pill-bugs. 

Texas would be a little scarier for sure. Could be a hobo spider in a leaf pile here in the PNW I imagine, and that would be a critter of concern.


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## RianSeeking (Nov 16, 2010)

Eek! Hobo spiders!

So, does one shred the leaves into tiny bits or just crunch them up a bit?


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## Edna (Nov 16, 2010)

I laid my carefully collected leaves gently in the indoor enclosure. They were so pretty and bright! Then Torty started with the job of shredding and crunching up. Some of the leaves are now becoming skeletonized, and I think that's just too cool!


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## onarock (Nov 16, 2010)

I guess if were talking a "naturalistic feeling" then my question would be.....Do they encounter "toxic" leaves in the wild? I am assuming they do. If your animals are well fed then i probably wouldnt worry about it, if their not then "look out". I am guessing your torts are well fed happy guys, so I wouldnt worry about it. I have some leopards that hang out near a plumeria tree that is always loosing its leaves and I hear they are toxic, no problems that I can see. I dont think I've ever seen them eating them.


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## melas (Nov 16, 2010)

I filled a 4' x 12' red foot enclosure with magnolia leaves thinking that they would hold up with their waxy coating. Well they did really well until one day I noticed they were all gone . . . it was literally two garbage bags full. Luckily there was no noticeable affect on the tortoises (this was years ago) - learned my lesson though. 

Oh and my torts were well fed and very heavy . . .


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