# Marbelizing on Redfoots...Good or Bad?



## Candy (Feb 9, 2010)

I've been wondering now for quite some time about the marbeling on Dale's shell. I hear it's desirable from some, but then I wonder if that's true or not, I mean where are the facts at? Sometimes I wonder if it's not because they're lacking some mineral or vitamin and that's why their shell does that. If I go to some of the Redfoot farm websites in Brazil I don't see any of their shells having any white on them at all and there's hundreds of them. And then I see other Redfoots on here that don't have any either and then there are some that have a lot of it. I noticed that when I have the humidity way up in Dale's enclosure he seems to be marbelizing faster then before and now Ruby's shell is already Marbelizing at her young age. I keep her humidity up around 85%. I'm wondering if it has to do with that of the humidity factor or the fact that they are not outside like the ones in Brazil and that they don't get full sun whenever they need it. What do you think?


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Feb 9, 2010)

I don't know the answer to your question, but my girl has no marbling, but she is a northern. I think it may be some genetic variation that has been selected for breeding... But a breeder probably knows the real answer


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## t_mclellan (Feb 10, 2010)

Marbling in a "Cherry Head" is a normal growth pattern. Some have it some don't.
Animals raised inside with minimal UVL tend to retain the pattern, Sometimes their entire life. Animals raised out side with an abundance of natural sun light tend to darken over time.
I have 10 CH's, 2 adults & 8 sub adults. All of my animals are out side & all have some degree of marbling. Some 8" animals have a lot & some have just a touch of marbling.
The 2 adults have just the faintest remnants of marbling, New growth shows white or gold(ish) color. This quickly darkens to a deep brown or black.

This is how they grow naturally & is not caused by diet that I am aware of.
I have seen animals imported from farms in Brazil that were 6" and showed varying degrees of marbling. The adults that these animals came from seem to have none in most photos. Some close up photos that I have seen of the farm breeding stock show traces of marbling. 

I was at "Pet farm" when the infamous shipment of "Cherry Heads" were shipped from Paraguay, I have no doubt that those animals were of wild origin. All of those first imports showed signs of marbling. Some of the youngest animals resembled Leopard tortoises! That is not an exaggeration! The older animals were darker but the marbling was still present.

That is about all I know about marbling in "Cherry Head" redfoots.


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## terryo (Feb 10, 2010)

I've seen pictures of some Cherries with lots of marbling, and they always cost a little more. Pio is also starting to get some, and I love it. That's one of the things that first attracted me to Cherry Heads when I was researching which tortoise to get. A few years ago I saw one on Kingsnake that was covered with it and was selling for $500. I also heard that it was from high humidity inside, and once they went outside it did become darker.


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## Candy (Feb 10, 2010)

It will be very interesting come May when Dale goes outside what will happen to his shell pattern of marbling. I guess it's all a learnig and waiting process.


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## terryo (Feb 10, 2010)

Candy, Pio was out all last summer, and his didn't get any darker. In fact, he's getting more. That's why I love the Cherries...besides that nose.


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## Meg90 (Feb 10, 2010)

Now, I see all this talk of marbling, and yet, no one posts any pics? There's something wrong here---


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## Madkins007 (Feb 10, 2010)

Marblizing or mottling is just a loss of melatonin pigment in the growth lines. It seems pretty natural in Red-foots, especially those from Brazil.

I DO wonder, however, if there may not be a stress-induced version as well. One of mine, my first of this herd, developed some of it about all at once, and at about the same time as her shell developed some pyramiding. She is a Northern which sometimes mottle in the wild, but do not seem to do so as often as other groups. None of the others show any sign of it (well, the CH I traded to Terry did, but she is not in my herd anymore so she does not count!)


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## t_mclellan (Feb 11, 2010)

Just for Meg!
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x82/coonass1951/Cherry Head/
There are 2 small CH's here that I have had since they were 1 month old (2years).
All others I received from members of this & 1 other forum.
The 2 I raised have been out side except in the worst weather.
The others were all raised in side till they got to me.


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## terryo (Feb 11, 2010)

Well here's Pio, Meg. He's 2 1/2 years old now. Can you tell if he's a male?


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## Meg90 (Feb 11, 2010)

Pio looks female to me, because of the anal scute coordination but I'm no redfoot expert. Do you have a picture that shows the cloaca? That would help.


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## cdmay (Feb 12, 2010)

t_mclellan said:


> Marbling in a "Cherry Head" is a normal growth pattern. Some have it some don't.
> Animals raised inside with minimal UVL tend to retain the pattern, Sometimes their entire life. Animals raised out side with an abundance of natural sun light tend to darken over time.
> I have 10 CH's, 2 adults & 8 sub adults. All of my animals are out side & all have some degree of marbling. Some 8" animals have a lot & some have just a touch of marbling.
> The 2 adults have just the faintest remnants of marbling, New growth shows white or gold(ish) color. This quickly darkens to a deep brown or black.
> ...



Tom's explanation is exactly right. My experiences have been the same. 
As for that Pet Farm shipment---oh man do I wish I kept the ones I got back then! Who knew they would go from $40.00 each to what they sometimes go for now? Being able to pick through a few thousand individuals was also pretty nice.


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## t_mclellan (Feb 12, 2010)

[/quote]

Tom's explanation is exactly right. My experiences have been the same. 
As for that Pet Farm shipment---oh man do I wish I kept the ones I got back then! Who knew they would go from $40.00 each to what they sometimes go for now? Being able to pick through a few thousand individuals was also pretty nice.
[/quote]

If we only knew then what we know now!


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Feb 12, 2010)

Terry, from my novice eye, Pio looks to be a Pioletta ... I don't know whether to wink or frown for an emoticon! lol

Although didn't you say he/she had a "love rock" ?


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## terryo (Feb 12, 2010)

Ya think, Jordan? He hasn't bothered the love rock since I moved it to the other end of his viv. He is too lazy to go all the way over there. He has discovered mushrooms now. I need to find a scale. Where would I buy one...does anyone know? I think he is a little over weight. My son seems to think he is fat.


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## Candy (Feb 12, 2010)

Target has them Terry my husband just bought one for me for my Valentines gift. They're in the kitchen section. I weighed Dale today and he is 2 lbs. 10 1/4 ounces and Ruby is 4 ounces. I am so happy now that I can track their weight.  I was really hoping that Danny would come on here and look at Pio and tell you what he is, but no such luck yet.


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## Madkins007 (Feb 13, 2010)

My best guess for sex, based on anal scute angle, apparent tail size, and the anal gap is female, but because it is still a younger animal and the photo is not great, I would only give it about a 60% certainty.


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## Redfoot NERD (Feb 13, 2010)

Candy said:


> Target has them Terry my husband just bought one for me for my Valentines gift. They're in the kitchen section. I weighed Dale today and he is 2 lbs. 10 1/4 ounces and Ruby is 4 ounces. I am so happy now that I can track their weight.  I was really hoping that Danny would come on here and look at Pio and tell you what he is, but no such luck yet.



Candy I doubt Danny could do anything more [ like all of the rest of us ] than 'guess' that Pio is a male.

Terry K



DoctorCosmonaut said:


> Terry, from my novice eye, Pio looks to be a Pioletta ... I don't know whether to wink or frown for an emoticon! lol
> 
> Although didn't you say he/she had a "love rock" ?





Jordan that 'love rock' thing is meaningless! I've seen sub-adult/adult females 'ride' each other.. especially this time of year when all of the females are together...

Terry K


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## -EJ (Feb 14, 2010)

I would have to go with male (90% sure...fudge factor). It's definately big enough to sex.

How long have you had it? Very nice looking animal.



terryo said:


> Well here's Pio, Meg. He's 2 1/2 years old now. Can you tell if he's a male?


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## terryo (Feb 14, 2010)

I would have to go with male (90% sure...fudge factor). It's definately big enough to sex.

How long have you had it? Very nice looking animal.

I have him (?) since he was a hatchling. He's 2 1/2 now. I got him from Tom C. So far..so good. He was just starting to get some marbling last summer.


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## allegraf (Feb 14, 2010)

Terry,

I think it may be a boy since the anal scutes still look a little flat and have not really separated from the shell. That being said, they can change in what seems like a heartbeat. I prefer to keep a loose guess than a hard number in my juveniles until they are definitely sexable. BTW Pio is looking great!

The marbling does seem to fade and be a phenomenon related to the new growth. Some of mine the pretty marbling looks good now but will eventually turn dark to match the rest of the plastron. Mine are outside most of the year, so I appreciate it when is develops. 

This is one that I got from a good friend. The marbling pattern in this one is really neat, the patterns seem to originate more from the areola and not from the new growth. She is unusual just the same. It will be interesting to see how her shell develops and changes over time. The new growth has developed dark with no new signs of marbling. 








The marbling pattern on my two juvenile cherries is what the more common marbling looks like and tends to darken with sun and time.


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## terryo (Feb 14, 2010)

She is just beautiful! As she grows will that go away? I am here in NY, so mine is inside for the winter. Would that have anything to do with the marbling staying longer than one that is outside year round?


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## Candy (Feb 14, 2010)

That is the most beautiful marbelizing I've seen yet. If Dale got like that I wouldn't mind at all. Most of the marbelizing I've seen I'm not really thrilled with, but yours is gorgeous. Terry I'm taking my guess now that Pio is a girl. We'll see in another year or so though won't we? If Pio is then we can breed her with Dale.


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## terryo (Feb 14, 2010)

Can we watch? LOL If Pio is a girl I'm going to rename her Pia. Every animal in my house so far is a female. I was looking forward to a male something or other.


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## Yvonne G (Feb 14, 2010)

Gosh that's a pretty tortoise. Its a leopard/redfoot, right???


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## allegraf (Feb 15, 2010)

She is unique! I am also curious whether she will hold the marbling or if it will fade. So far it seems to be steady.


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## cdmay (Feb 15, 2010)

Wow Allegra... if I had that female I would keep her 'till she died of old age!


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## allegraf (Feb 15, 2010)

I agree, I couldn't believe it that my friend was willing to give her up. I think he had a moment of crazy and I am eternally grateful!


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## N2TORTS (Feb 27, 2010)

Meg90 said:


> Now, I see all this talk of marbling, and yet, no one posts any pics? There's something wrong here---



Here Is my Alpha Male Cherry .. ( which he is almost all Black ) . His mate, her marbling and all .... Even more amazing .... one of my Jr. Cherrys Belly ... notice the triangles in the belly line ( perfect right angles) nature fascinates me when it produces that? ... Way To Cool ! I have two from the same hatch and one has this the other dosnt .
JD


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## cdmay (Feb 28, 2010)

Nice. Is it just me or does this male only have three claws on his rear legs?
One of my males only had two claws on his right rear leg.


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## N2TORTS (Feb 28, 2010)

cdmay said:


> Nice. Is it just me or does this male only have three claws on his rear legs?
> One of my males only had two claws on his right rear leg.



Funny ....you caught that , I had to take a second look myself! 
Nope he has four. Just the inner ankle ones are small. 
Your new screen name "Eagle eye" 
JD~
the torts' 
@Sally2


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## Yvonne G (Feb 28, 2010)

cdmay said:


> Nice. Is it just me or does this male only have three claws on his rear legs?
> One of my males only had two claws on his right rear leg.



Do YOU have three claws on your rear leg too? Then I guess it's not just you!!


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