# Another Effective Night Box



## Tom (Jan 29, 2014)

I've been meaning to do this thread for a while now. I've shown how I build, heat, and use my larger 4x8' boxes, but that is just too big for a single sulcata or a few leopards. Those can be seen here: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-66867.html
This version is only 4x4', and its much more suitable for smaller applications. The main thing I want to show is how I'm heating it. This box houses my female South African Leopards. The lid is hinged and lays back against the wall for ease of cleaning and maintenance. There is 1.5" rigid foam insulation sandwiched between the outer and inner plywood layers. The walls are all sealed with plain silicone caulking to prevent any cold drafts. I prime and paint the outside, but I leave the inside totally untreated. I've been using these boxes for many years with no problems. I use plywood and not particle board or OSB, because it lasts longer and it won't disintegrate if it gets wet. Typically I put pressure treated skids on the bottoms of these to keep them off the ground for when it rains, but it stays pretty dry in this spot and I think the bottom flat on the ground will offer better insulation on a below freezing night.

Pics:
Here is the box on the outside. Notice the "drawbridge" style folding door. I close them up every night to keep them safe and warmer. There are vinyl flaps to keep the warm air in on cooler days when the door is open. If this box looks a little "worn" its because it used to be buried. Its a refurbished and recycled box. 







Here it is with the top open. You can see the radiant heat panel and my plastic shoe box that contains all my wires and electrical equipment.





Here you can see the RHP, the shoe box with my thermostat (See the probe hanging out?), my electric meter, and all the extra wire. Keeps it all contained nice and neat and out of tortoise reach. You can also see the Kane heat mat and how much floor space it takes up. The RHP is directly over the heat mat, and both are on the same thermostat. The tortoises can simply move over to the other side if they wish to get away from the heating elements, yet they will still be in their warm box.





In this pic you can see how I've built a little frame to lower the RHP. RHPs are not effective if they are too far away. They will not work well if mounted on the ceiling of a 4' tall box. The total height inside this box is about 21". The tortoises are only about 5-6" tall, so I've lowered the RHP about 6". In the future, as these girls get bigger, I may raise it up a bit, but the beauty of the RHP is that it gives off uniform warming heat over a large area, with no carapace damaging "hot spots" like you would encounter with a regular incandescent bulb or a CHE. You can literally lay your hand upon it while its on and it will not burn you. Can't do that with a CHE. You can also see the weather stripping in this pic.





I took it out for the pictures, but I also usually have a five gallon bucket of water in the box to add some humidity. Its very dry here in my climate and this helps to maintain some humidity in the warm box. This wouldn't be necessary in some areas. I tend to set my thermostats at 80-85 in winter when the days won't be getting all that warm, and I set them for 70-75 in the summer when every day will be sunny and 90-100 degrees.


I hope this thread inspires people to design and build their own boxes. These boxes work MUCH better than anything that you can buy and they are very energy efficient too.

Here is a link to where to get the Radiant Heat Panels: http://www.reptilebasics.com/rbi-radiant-heat-panels
I've been dealing with Bobby for a few years now, and he's been very honest about the strengths and weaknesses of his products. Years ago, he told me he didn't know how well these would work for what I wanted to do with them. He was happy to hear my positive feedback. These are designed for large indoor constrictor cages. They do not generate a tremendous amount of heat. In an under-insulated or drafty box, I don't think they would be effective, but neither would most any other heating element. For me, they work fantastic. I like them much better than any kind of bulb that only warms one spot. I have one of these over a large male sulcata, and it keeps his whole body warm instead of just one spot on the top of his carapace.

The Kane heat mats can be purchased from Tyler here: http://www.tortoisesupply.com/kane-heat-mats/


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## wellington (Jan 29, 2014)

Great thread Tom. Will help a lot of members. Love that you showed every thing and their placement. Thanks for another great, helpful thread.
I use the same two heating elements as my basking spot. I have them mounted on the sides with a flourescent UVB above. Works pretty good. Seeing though I am in freezing Chicago, I have a regular light bulb hanging too for added heat. This is all inside my insulated heated shed.


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## bigred (Jan 29, 2014)

Very nice Tom, Im going to be building something like this soon


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## Tom (Jan 30, 2014)

Its not hard to build and it works so much better than a Dogloo or rubbermade shed.


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## mcory (Jan 30, 2014)

Where can you get that heating element on top? That's awesome!! Can you come help me build one?! haha


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## Elohi (Jan 30, 2014)

Subscribing to this thread so I can return to it when it comes time to build a box.

Oh and I opened this thread last night and fell asleep reading it [FLUSHED FACE]. I kept trying to force my eyes open to read it but my exhaustion won lol. So I had to return today to read it haha.


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## Tom (Jan 30, 2014)

mcory said:


> Where can you get that heating element on top? That's awesome!! Can you come help me build one?! haha



There is a link for you to click at the bottom of the first post in this thread.


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## DrLew (Feb 1, 2014)

Tom said:


> mcory said:
> 
> 
> > Where can you get that heating element on top? That's awesome!! Can you come help me build one?! haha
> ...



Looks like a Reptile Basics heat panel....... www.reptilebasics.com


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## Tom (Feb 1, 2014)

That's exactly what it is. The link will take you right to it.


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## kathyth (Feb 1, 2014)

Thanks for posting these great idea's Tom!
Another thread to save for future reference.
ðŸ˜Š


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## mike taylor (Feb 1, 2014)

Tom , can you post pictures of the controls you use and the inside of the shoe box ? I just like seeing how people wire stuff . I'm a motor control electrician from 7:30 to 4:00 Monday to Friday .


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## lynnedit (Feb 1, 2014)

Thanks, Tom. Great suggestion about the height of the RHP and adjusting it as needed.


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## goReptiles (Feb 1, 2014)

Do you prefer the panel to the heater? Do you use the Kane mats in all your boxes. 

How do you run the wires to the box? My boyfriend is an electrician, but usually when he gets home that's the last thing he wants to do. I would need a plan, so he can tell me how it won't work then wait weeks for him to design something and get materials.  Plus anything electrical makes me nervous. When I have to change up my heat lamps or whatever, I do it on weekends so I'm comfortable during the week when I'm at work. Fires from malfunctioning equipment scares me (along with mold).


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## mctlong (Feb 1, 2014)

Love it! Those are some very lucky leopards!

Do you add any substrate?


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## Team Gomberg (Feb 1, 2014)

Thanks for sharing these. What size doorway did you use?

I just realized the size difference between the 2 girls. One looks half the size. Is it a deceiving photo or are they that different?


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## bouaboua (Feb 2, 2014)

Thank you for sharing this. More improvement ideas for mine now.

Thanks.


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## Tom (Feb 2, 2014)

mike taylor said:


> Tom , can you post pictures of the controls you use and the inside of the shoe box ? I just like seeing how people wire stuff . I'm a motor control electrician from 7:30 to 4:00 Monday to Friday .



Oh it's not pretty. I had a GFI circuit installed right above the box and I just run a short 12 gauge extension cord with a drip loop into the side of the box under the lid. Then I make holes with a 2" hole saw and stick all the cords in there any which way they'll fit. I just use one of those regular $25-30 reptile thermostats and an EZ Watt electricity meter.

I'll get you a pic, but it will be a few days at least.




goReptiles said:


> Do you prefer the panel to the heater? Do you use the Kane mats in all your boxes.
> 
> How do you run the wires to the box? My boyfriend is an electrician, but usually when he gets home that's the last thing he wants to do. I would need a plan, so he can tell me how it won't work then wait weeks for him to design something and get materials.  Plus anything electrical makes me nervous. When I have to change up my heat lamps or whatever, I do it on weekends so I'm comfortable during the week when I'm at work. Fires from malfunctioning equipment scares me (along with mold).



1. In smaller applications, I generally prefer the heat mat/RHP combo because it doesn't take up any floor space.
2. I only use Kane heat mats in some of the boxes. I don't use them in my boxes with the radiant oil heaters.
3. There is a GFI circuit near the box and I use a heavy gauge short extension cord to get power to the box.
4. Your boyfriend will know just how to safely do all of this, but I can't help you with motivating him. Sorry. 




mctlong said:


> Love it! Those are some very lucky leopards!
> 
> Do you add any substrate?



I put just a little bit of dirt in there to help absorb and "messes", but that's about it. In my other boxes I use grass hay for substrate, but I don't like to use any substrate at all with the heat mats.

There is LOTS of "substrate" right outside the door though. 




Team Gomberg said:


> Thanks for sharing these. What size doorway did you use?
> 
> I just realized the size difference between the 2 girls. One looks half the size. Is it a deceiving photo or are they that different?



I don't remember exactly, but I think it was 16" wide and 12" tall.

Yes they are very different in size. They are about a year apart in age.


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## goReptiles (Feb 2, 2014)

goReptiles said:


> Do you prefer the panel to the heater? Do you use the Kane mats in all your boxes.
> 
> How do you run the wires to the box? My boyfriend is an electrician, but usually when he gets home that's the last thing he wants to do. I would need a plan, so he can tell me how it won't work then wait weeks for him to design something and get materials.  Plus anything electrical makes me nervous. When I have to change up my heat lamps or whatever, I do it on weekends so I'm comfortable during the week when I'm at work. Fires from malfunctioning equipment scares me (along with mold).



1. In smaller applications, I generally prefer the heat mat/RHP combo because it doesn't take up any floor space.
2. I only use Kane heat mats in some of the boxes. I don't use them in my boxes with the radiant oil heaters.
3. There is a GFI circuit near the box and I use a heavy gauge short extension cord to get power to the box.
4. Your boyfriend will know just how to safely do all of this, but I can't help you with motivating him. Sorry. [/quote]

Do you prefer or see any big differences using the mat versus the oil heater?

Yea motivating him can be tough. He likes to relax on weekends. Ha. We dont have a gfi in the backyard so he'd have to put one out there. We need one back there either way




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## Tom (Feb 2, 2014)

I don't see much difference. Either system maintains my temps, and neither system dries out their carapaces like overhead bulbs can.

One thing that Bobby from Reptile Basics noted was that he thinks the insulation and double walled plywood (not particle board, in other words), is key for this system to work as intended. Without a properly sealed and insulated box, I don't think either of my preferred systems will work well. I think that is a very useful insight, and I should emphasize it more. I don't think this would work well in a dogloo or uninsulated shed, but then I don't think anything else will work well for that either. I have found that using more heat and electricity in uninsulated boxes just causes more desiccation and it still can't keep up with cold outside temps one those below freezing nights.


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## Team Gomberg (Feb 2, 2014)

Tom, you are right that a properly insulated box is the key. 
My heat source doesn't turn on often, at all. But the temp in the box is always right where I want it. 

My first electric bill after setting up the insulated heated night box (with mini oil filled radiator on thermostat for 80F) was actually LE$$ than it was the month prior- when I didn't have it set up!! Lol


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## T33's Torts (Feb 10, 2014)

Tom, if I were to use a CHE, would it work to lay it in a corner and use bricks to keep it at a distance from the sulcata inside?


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## Tom (Feb 10, 2014)

tffnytorts said:


> Tom, if I were to use a CHE, would it work to lay it in a corner and use bricks to keep it at a distance from the sulcata inside?



Sure. Anything that generates heat can work. My only complaint about CHEs is that they get really hot directly under them and on larger tortoises this often causes damage to the carapace. If you had it off to the side, and not directly over the tortoise you would avoid this problem.

In theory your plan sounds feasible, but the execution could be problematic if you are not careful.


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## T33's Torts (Feb 10, 2014)

Okay, thanks!


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## JennBell0725 (Feb 15, 2014)

Just wanted to put my vote in for the double walled night box design with the oil filled heater. Mine is 8x4x3(ish) and the heat hardly ever comes on yet keeps the box at a steady 82 degrees. I have it walled off at the bottom so the hay stays away and the draw bridge still door with vinyl flaps. LOVE IT!


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## mike taylor (Feb 15, 2014)

*Re: RE: Another Effective Night Box*



JennBell0725 said:


> Just wanted to put my vote in for the double walled night box design with the oil filled heater. Mine is 8x4x3(ish) and the heat hardly ever comes on yet keeps the box at a steady 82 degrees. I have it walled off at the bottom so the hay stays away and the draw bridge still door with vinyl flaps. LOVE IT!



What! !!!! ! No pictures! !!!! !


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## Tom (Feb 15, 2014)

Yeah. C'mon. Where are the pics?

I'm making yet another 4x4x2' box right now. Just put together the lid today.


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## GinaSoCal (Aug 6, 2014)

I'm rather late to this thread but I had a couple of questions for you Tom:

1) For the RHP Panel: What wattage do you suggest to get if I plan to get it for one sulcata, currently 6 yrs old & 30 pounds, but I want this to be big enough & equipped enough to take him into adulthood with no problems.

2) Same Question on the Kane Heat Mat: What size & wattage do you suggest for one male?

Thanks in advance!


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## Tom (Aug 6, 2014)

GinaSoCal said:


> I'm rather late to this thread but I had a couple of questions for you Tom:
> 
> 1) For the RHP Panel: What wattage do you suggest to get if I plan to get it for one sulcata, currently 6 yrs old & 30 pounds, but I want this to be big enough & equipped enough to take him into adulthood with no problems.
> 
> ...




1. 80 watts. Its about 12x21". I get them from: http://www.reptilebasics.com/80-watt-radiant-heat-panel
2. 18x28". I think these are around 72 watts, if memory serves. Tyler has these. http://www.tortoisesupply.com/kane-heat-mats/

These sizes will work well for any size tortoise from 10-200 pounds.


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## GinaSoCal (Aug 6, 2014)

Thanks a million Tom! 

I'm looking forward to building Francisco one within the next couple of months here before we get into 'Winter' in Carlsbad...I don't have any carpentry experience but have the tools & feel that with your instructions it should be fairly easy.


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## Alcina (Aug 6, 2016)

Hello, Tom! 

I have an old heater that is very similar to this one. If I mounted it on the top of a small wood enclosure, would that work? Or do you prefer the RHP?

Thanks!


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## Tom (Aug 6, 2016)

Alcina said:


> Hello, Tom!
> 
> I have an old heater that is very similar to this one. If I mounted it on the top of a small wood enclosure, would that work? Or do you prefer the RHP?
> 
> Thanks!



They use those over in South Africa. I used one for me at the Inn where I lived for four months. It wasn't very good at keeping my room warm, but it might work for a small tortoise house. Since I have no experience using one of these in this way, I really don't have anything other than guesses for you. My RHPs do the job and they are 80 watts. The one in your link is 450 watts. I'd be careful, but give it a try WITHOUT a tortoise in the box for a few nights and see what it does. You might have just shown me a new and better way to do things. Please post whatever you discover.


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## Alcina (Aug 6, 2016)

Tom said:


> They use those over in South Africa. I used one for me at the Inn where I lived for four months. It wasn't very good at keeping my room warm, but it might work for a small tortoise house. Since I have no experience using one of these in this way, I really don't have anything other than guesses for you. My RHPs do the job and they are 80 watts. The one in your link is 450 watts. I'd be careful, but give it a try WITHOUT a tortoise in the box for a few nights and see what it does. You might have just shown me a new and better way to do things. Please post whatever you discover.


I'll keep that in mind! I was planning on testing the heater out when I build my enclosure. I want to have everything set up before I even buy a tortoise, that way I can do temperature and humidity checks and stuff. 

Thanks for the advice!


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## Knap_123 (Aug 7, 2016)

This is awesome info for a newbie like me.


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## Dave S. (Apr 25, 2017)

Hey Tom. Have you researched or tried Solar panels on the roofs of your Night Boxes? I'm about to build one and don't want the mess of cords running throughout my yard and I don't have an outdoor outlet. I was was wondering if you or anyone else on the forum has tried using solar panels successfully as energy sources for heat lamps/panels, etc.
Saw something like this on eBay that sparked an idea:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solar-Light...818649?hash=item4d4f4b5459:g:ynEAAOSwo4pYNuOr
Thanks for your input.
-Dave


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## shuda huda (Apr 25, 2017)

Very helpful thread Tom. Many thanks


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## Tom (May 5, 2017)

Dave S. said:


> Hey Tom. Have you researched or tried Solar panels on the roofs of your Night Boxes? I'm about to build one and don't want the mess of cords running throughout my yard and I don't have an outdoor outlet. I was was wondering if you or anyone else on the forum has tried using solar panels successfully as energy sources for heat lamps/panels, etc.
> Saw something like this on eBay that sparked an idea:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solar-Light...818649?hash=item4d4f4b5459:g:ynEAAOSwo4pYNuOr
> Thanks for your input.
> -Dave



While it is possible, our heating elements pull a lot of power on a cold winter night, which is also when days are shortest and we are frequently under that marine layer or cloudy skies. You would need a large bank of batteries to store enough power to last the night and get through cloudy days.

I just rent a trencher and run power to wherever I need it. For short distances, I use a heavy duty extension cord.


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## Momof4 (May 12, 2017)

@Tom 
Hi Tom, 
My husband informed me that we could start our heated night box this weekend. 
Is there a list of materials that would help us get started? I love all your instructions but I'm having a hard time with a materials list. 
I just need to know how many pieces of plywood and thickness, lumber etc. 
I'm okay in the electrical department. 

I wasn't sure if there was a link.


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## Momof4 (May 12, 2017)

Momof4 said:


> @Tom
> Hi Tom,
> My husband informed me that we could start our heated night box this weekend.
> Is there a list of materials that would help us get started? I love all your instructions but I'm having a hard time with a materials list.
> ...




I read through a few pages and tried to piece it together. We'll do the best we can. I'm so excited!


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## boltzfan (May 15, 2017)

What size rhp and heat mat did you use?


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## AZTgirl (Nov 30, 2019)

I would love to see all these photos but they seem to have disappeared?


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## Yvonne G (Nov 30, 2019)

@Tom If you still have all the night box building photos stored in your phone, you can post them all here at the end of the thread. You don't have to try to fit them back in where they were originally. Or you can start a new thread with all the pictures and we can just edit this thread to show the link to the new, picture thread.


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## Tom (Nov 30, 2019)

Yvonne G said:


> @Tom If you still have all the night box building photos stored in your phone, you can post them all here at the end of the thread. You don't have to try to fit them back in where they were originally. Or you can start a new thread with all the pictures and we can just edit this thread to show the link to the new, picture thread.


Thank you, but there are in another computer. I don't know if it still even works. I'll have to see if I can find them and transfer them over.


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## Unitygraph (Jul 29, 2021)

@Tom Have a quick question in regards to all the flat lids of these tortoise night boxes I’ve been seeing. When it rains, doesn’t the rain water just sit and puddle up on the flat surface lid? Wouldn’t the roof top of a tortoise box be better with it being sloped like a roof of a house, so that the rain water just runs down off of the roof top? Just curious to know, because I am going to build a night box for my Sulcata, that I want to last long term.

thanks,
J


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## Tom (Jul 29, 2021)

Unitygraph said:


> @Tom Have a quick question in regards to all the flat lids of these tortoise night boxes I’ve been seeing. When it rains, doesn’t the rain water just sit and puddle up on the flat surface lid? Wouldn’t the roof top of a tortoise box be better with it being sloped like a roof of a house, so that the rain water just runs down off of the roof top? Just curious to know, because I am going to build a night box for my Sulcata, that I want to last long term.
> 
> thanks,
> J


Rain??? In California? What are you talking about??? 

My building skills are very basic and self-taught. A sloped roof sounds like a great idea, but its outside my skill set. In practice, this has never been a problem for me. My boxes last 10+ years, and counting. For a time, I was painting the roofs white every spring, and some dark color every fall. The constant painting kept them protected. Prior to that bi-annual repainting, I still never had a problem. Now I put white corrugated plastic on top, and this protects the box tops even more.


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