# Negligible Senescence besides Giant Tortoises



## 00crashtest (Feb 12, 2022)

It has been hypothesized in the late stage (almost theorized) by the zoologist subset of the biologist subset of scientists that Aldabra giant tortoises (species: _Aldabrachelys gigantea_), Galapagos giant tortoises (species complex: _Chelonoidis niger_), and three-toed box turtles (subspecies: _Terrapene carolina triunguis_) have negligible senescence (meaning that they do not biologically lose fitness from age), suggested by data from field studies. Tortoises in general are known to live a very long life without showing signs of aging.

As a result, I wonder if other species of tortoises, such as red-footed/cherry-head tortoises (species: _Chelonoidis cabonarius_), yellow-footed tortoises (species: _Chelonoidis denticulatus_), radiated tortoises (species: _Astrochelys radiata_), and African spurred tortoises (species: _Centrochelys sulcata_), or even tortoises (family: _Testudinidae_) in general, besides the aforementioned giant tortoises also believed by biologists/data scientists/statisticians to have negligible senescence? How about anecdotal evidence from hobbyists? Also, are other subspecies of the common box turtle (species: _Terrapene carolina_) and other species of box turtle (genus: _Terrapene_) believed by relevant professionals to have negligible senescence? How about anecdotal examples from hobbyists too?


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## Tom (Feb 12, 2022)

Hello and welcome. Interesting choice for your first post.

People frequently ask me how long tortoises live. My standard and is: No one knows. Anyone who gives you a number is either making it up, or repeating a number that someone else made up. There have been several documented cases of tortoises living more than 180 years, but we don't know their lifespans. We only really started breeding them in the 90s, with a few notable exceptions like @zovick who started breeding in the 60s, and even then we weren't usually starting babies correctly, subjecting them to horrible dry conditions instead of the monsoon conditions that they hatch into in the wild. When the ones hatched in the 90's start dying of old age, we will have some idea of lifespan. When the ones hatch in 2010 and started with good hydration and the correct foods start dying of old age, we will have an even better idea.

I read an article in Reader's Digest many years ago explaining this phenomenon. They theorized that turtles and tortoises live "until something kills them". The article explained that telomeres, the "straps" that encase and wrap around our DNA strands, begin to unravel over time which is what cause the visible effects of aging in humans and other animals. In tortoises, those strands remain tightly wrapped for their entire lives, never unraveling. If they do not fall victim to predation, dehydration. starvation, disease, accident, etc., they might be immortal.


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## 00crashtest (Feb 12, 2022)

Tom said:


> Hello and welcome. Interesting choice for your first post.
> 
> People frequently ask me how long tortoises live. My standard and is: No one knows. Anyone who gives you a number is either making it up, or repeating a number that someone else made up. There have been several documented cases of tortoises living more than 180 years, but we don't know their lifespans. We only really started breeding them in the 90s, with a few notable exceptions like @zovick who started breeding in the 60s, and even then we weren't usually starting babies correctly, subjecting them to horrible dry conditions instead of the monsoon conditions that they hatch into in the wild. When the ones hatched in the 90's start dying of old age, we will have some idea of lifespan. When the ones hatch in 2010 and started with good hydration and the correct foods start dying of old age, we will have an even better idea.
> 
> I read an article in Reader's Digest many years ago explaining this phenomenon. They theorized that turtles and tortoises live "until something kills them". The article explained that telomeres, the "straps" that encase and wrap around our DNA strands, begin to unravel over time which is what cause the visible effects of aging in humans and other animals. In tortoises, those strands remain tightly wrapped for their entire lives, never unraveling. If they do not fall victim to predation, dehydration. starvation, disease, accident, etc., they might be immortal.


Great then! I'm hoping my redfoots, Russians, and ornate box turtles will last 600 years, outlasting civilization. I'm even hoping they will live 2,000 years, or even 30,000 years! I always keep them on comfy carpets in warm/cool environments indoors, only plan to bring them out on every sunny afternoon in which I can supervise to bask, always feed them calcium rich veggies with occasional fruits, give them shower+soak combos in a clean container every few days, and give them daily mistings, even on the underside. I even sometimes sleep with them to give them warmth and humidity, especially on cold days. I'm able to keep them happy despite me never turning up the heat in order to be most eco-friendly. I plan to pass them on to my lineage for an indefinite number of generations. Of course, I will also breed the tortoises in order to maximize their species' chances of survival. Let's just hope tha the dreaded draconian Lacey Act amendments in the America COMPETES Act does not pass. Basically, nothing will kill the turtles besides an extreme vehicular crash or a direct meteor strike. The survived 240 million years and 2 huge mass extinctions which had the climate change way more drastically (one was the K-Pg extinction featuring the asteroid strike that infamously killed the once-absolutely-dominant dinosaurs) than what even the worst-case-scenario global warming from human-caused carbon-dioxide emissions would do.


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## jsheffield (Feb 13, 2022)

I love the idea, and discussion, but I have some concerns with a couple of things you mentioned above.


Redfoots, Russians, and ornate box turtles (species you mention living with) have different dietary and environmental needs, and it's hard to imagine Sacramento having the right climate (especially for the Redfoot) without you providing additional heat and humidity.
Also, one of the ongoing risks of keeping tortoises (and turtles) inside on carpet is that they eat things that they shouldn't from the floors of our houses, and can suffer from impactions or blockages.

It's possible that I misunderstood the care regimen you maintain for your tortoises and turtles, in which case I apologize.

I'm fascinated with the idea of my tortoises outliving me, exploring forwards through the decades after I'm gone, and have made provision in my will for their distribution and care.

Jamie


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## Yvonne G (Feb 13, 2022)

I hadn't heard that about the species you listed, however, many, many years ago I read a paper by, I think, Dr. Jartchow of Arizona, about this subject using desert tortoises for the study. His paper said that desert tortoises don't die from old age, but rather from some sort of environmental thing - eaten by a predator, illness, etc. His paper also said that a female desert tortoise can and will lay fertile, viable eggs right up to the end of her life, no matter how old that is.


00crashtest said:


> Great then! I'm hoping my redfoots, Russians, and ornate box turtles will last 600 years, outlasting civilization. I'm even hoping they will live 2,000 years, or even 30,000 years! I always keep them on comfy carpets in warm/cool environments indoors, only plan to bring them out on every sunny afternoon in which I can supervise to bask, always feed them calcium rich veggies with occasional fruits, give them shower+soak combos in a clean container every few days, and give them daily mistings, even on the underside. I even sometimes sleep with them to give them warmth and humidity, especially on cold days. I'm able to keep them happy despite me never turning up the heat in order to be most eco-friendly. I plan to pass them on to my lineage for an indefinite number of generations. Of course, I will also breed the tortoises in order to maximize their species' chances of survival. Let's just hope tha the dreaded draconian Lacey Act amendments in the America COMPETES Act does not pass. Basically, nothing will kill the turtles besides an extreme vehicular crash or a direct meteor strike. The survived 240 million years and 2 huge mass extinctions which had the climate change way more drastically (one was the K-Pg extinction featuring the asteroid strike that infamously killed the once-absolutely-dominant dinosaurs) than what even the worst-case-scenario global warming from human-caused carbon-dioxide emissions would do.



I get the feeling that the above post was put together and posted here just to get a reaction from us ( trolling ). If you expect your tortoises to out live you, then you'd better read all you can about their care, because what you've listed in this post certainly isn't going to get the job done. The longevity studies were made on wild tortoises, not tortoises kept in conditions you've listed in your post.


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## 00crashtest (Feb 14, 2022)

Yvonne G said:


> I hadn't heard that about the species you listed, however, many, many years ago I read a paper by, I think, Dr. Jartchow of Arizona, about this subject using desert tortoises for the study. His paper said that desert tortoises don't die from old age, but rather from some sort of environmental thing - eaten by a predator, illness, etc. His paper also said that a female desert tortoise can and will lay fertile, viable eggs right up to the end of her life, no matter how old that is.
> 
> 
> I get the feeling that the above post was put together and posted here just to get a reaction from us ( trolling ). If you expect your tortoises to out live you, then you'd better read all you can about their care, because what you've listed in this post certainly isn't going to get the job done. The longevity studies were made on wild tortoises, not tortoises kept in conditions you've listed in your
> ...


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## 00crashtest (Feb 14, 2022)

I originally didn't think of sleeping with them. However, whenever I took them out of their enclosures in my bedroom in order to give them space to let them play, one of the redfoots (male) always went to and hung out at the base of my bed whenever I was taking laying in bed. So, one day, I decided to put the base of my bed away and put the mattress topper on the floor. Guess what? The very next moment, the redfoot crawled onto my bed while I was there ??! So, from that moment on, they were never in their jail cell known as an enclosure ever again! Later, when I got my Horsfields', one of them also crawled onto my bed! That Russian even slept on my chest after being put there and cuddled with! ? Aww, How cute!


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## wellington (Feb 14, 2022)

From the way you are caring for them, they will be lucky to live long. Roaming the carpeted or wood floors, sleeping with them, diet you are feeding some and the lack of heat you mention will not help them live but just the opposite. 
I suggest you read each individual caresheet, listen to those giving advice and make big changes asap.


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