# Castor oil for constipation?



## Rocki (Aug 27, 2021)

Hello, is it ok to use castor oil instead of mineral oil for constipation? Rectally inserted. He is dangerously constipated, I believe he got in to some perlite. The vet is too damn slow and I’m not going to sit here and roll my thumbs watching Tobias suffer and potentially die. 
thanks!!


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## Rocki (Aug 27, 2021)

Oh and he is a sulcata 5 yrs old, and yes I’m soaking him in lukewarm water for a couple of hours at a time twice a day. He won’t eat anything. Not even the nopales cactus pads thinly shredded. X-rays showed his entestines pretty damn full of “something” I believe it’s perlite. 
I’m worried.


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## Ink (Aug 27, 2021)

@Tom or @Yvonne G hopefully an expert will be able to help you.


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## Rocki (Aug 27, 2021)

Ink said:


> @Tom or @Yvonne G hopefully an expert will be able to help you.


thank, I hope too <3


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## Rocki (Aug 27, 2021)

Rocki said:


> Hello, is it ok to use castor oil instead of mineral oil for constipation? Rectally inserted. He is dangerously constipated, I believe he got in to some perlite. The vet is too damn slow and I’m not going to sit here and roll my thumbs watching Tobias suffer and potentially die.
> thanks!!


Tho it could be perlite, this doesn't really look like it. See pictures attached. Wtf is it!? Vet got the first one out, he just pooped this one out in the soak. Im afraid there is a lot more..


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## Sensimillia (Aug 27, 2021)

Hopefully not perlite, am no expert but kinda looks like a bladder stone.
Here's a link to bladder stones. Looks similar.





Bladder Stones: Tortoises | Arizona Exotics | -Tortoises & Turtles Resources


Insights into Medical ManagementBladder stones cannot be dissolved medically like they often are in mammals. Surgical removal is the only treatment.Most tortoises recover with surgery even if the bladder stone has been present a long time.SignsTortoises may lose their appetite, fail to produce...




azeah.com


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## Rocki (Aug 27, 2021)

OMG yes it does look like it. His X-rays didnt show any round objects oddly enough, just his intestines were unusually solid, I wish I had a copy of them now so I could show them, but the whiter it is the more solid, like bone, the darker/more black it is the less dense, like gas. The intestines were whiter than normal. I will call the vet again right now.


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## Ink (Aug 27, 2021)

@maggie3fan


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## ZenHerper (Aug 27, 2021)

If your veterinarian could not identify the calculus or work out the difference between the bladder and intestines...find another vet. Reptile anatomy is different from mammalian.

Some of these torts need surgery if the stones don't all pass. You want someone who knows how to manage tortoise anesthesia and surgery:





Bladder Stones


Posted on Long Beach Animal Hospital's web page: One of the more interesting and unique surgeries we perform is the removal of a bladder stone (called a cystotomy) from California Desert Tortoises (CDT’s), along with various other tortoise species like African spurred tortoises (Sulcatas) and...




www.tortoiseforum.org





Continue daily warm water soaks -- these stones need the extra hydration to pass, and your pet's kidneys need the supplemental water. What is Toby's diet and care environment?


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## Rocki (Aug 27, 2021)

ZenHerper said:


> If your veterinarian could not identify the calculus or work out the difference between the bladder and intestines...find another vet. Reptile anatomy is different from mammalian.
> 
> Some of these torts need surgery if the stones don't all pass. You want someone who knows how to manage tortoise anesthesia and surgery:
> 
> ...


Yes I might have to take him elsewhere, though they do communicate with the other better place that is a few hours away. He lives in the yard, its big, wood chips, though those haven't seemed to be a problem so far. He sleeps under bushes of his choosing even though he has a little house. He is so stubborn, doesn't want anything that he doesn't find himself. He eats grass from the lawn (no chemicals) and a lot of pumpkin and zukini stuff, tomatoes, cucumbers, mulberry leaves and grape leaves, pumpkin flowers, lettuce, some fruit. He will not eat Orchard hay or Timothy grass no matter what I do, I have soaked it, mixed it with lettuce, he hates it. He never drinks any water either so I soak him once a week but Im guessing from this that it hasn't been enough. Right now Im feeding him cactus pads but he won't eat even those. In the winter I had him inside mostly in my bathroom with an infra light, but from what Ive been reading now sounds like it wasn't warm enough because he wasn't very active at all. I thought it was normal for them to semi-hibernate, which also a lot of people say but I read here somewhere that its not so. I dont know how to be sure of anything anymore. The vets oddly enough dont seem to know very much..
That link is not delightful, but thank you. Im not sure what to do if he needs operation. Im in school and I dont have much $


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## ZenHerper (Aug 27, 2021)

Not sure where Chico is...perhaps @Tom or @Yvonne G can recommend some other vets...

Urate crystals and stones are made when the body becomes dehydrated and the kidneys recycle water back into the blood (handy trick if you're a reptile that might end up in periodic drought conditions)...but without that water, the protein by-product uric acid is left behind and it clumps together in the bladder. If the body remains dry, layers of urate gunk will form into stones.

Torts that won't drink need soaking to prevent dehydration -- they can absorb water through the vent, and hopefully learn to drink and seek out water on a daily basis. Plopping a 100-pound rock into a pool of water every day is not a fun job! You want to teach him now.

His appetite may be poor right now because the stones are causing an obstruction of his digestive organs. Continue offering his favorites, but also add mashed bits of new things...cactus pad is nice and soft and you can smooth some of the inside onto something he likes. Torts are programmed to sample a lot of plants near to where they hatch, but then their brains start to get attached to things that are safe to eat. They can learn to eat a wider variety when they are older, but it takes more time, patience, ingenuity, and persistence.


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## Maggie3fan (Aug 27, 2021)

The nearest Vet I found was the Vet school in Davis.
I had a 120 pound 17 year old tortoise who was very well hydrated. He had his own pond that he swam in, and drank from, so I didn't worry about and knew nothing about bladder stones. My Vet took Bob to the Vet school at OSU and the students there did an MRI. The only Vet we could find who would do the surgery, he killed Bob in August 2015.
The biggest stone weighed 2 pounds, it was hard and solid, but they are starting to disintegrate now.




I do realize how expensive what we are talking about is. 
If I might suggest that you find an exotic Vet who can diagnose the stones. If the tort can't pass any, surgery will be required to save the tortoise's life. But you need to know how big the stones are first so then decisions can be made. The surgery on Bob was about $5000. I started a "gofundme" account and that helped pay for Bob's surgery.
No Castor oil!!! Get a bottle of mineral oil (abt $2) gently and slowly use a syringe to put the oil in his cloaca.


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## Rocki (Aug 27, 2021)

maggie3fan said:


> The nearest Vet I found was the Vet school in Davis.
> I had a 120 pound 17 year old tortoise who was very well hydrated. He had his own pond that he swam in, and drank from, so I didn't worry about and knew nothing about bladder stones. My Vet took Bob to the Vet school at OSU and the students there did an MRI. The only Vet we could find who would do the surgery, he killed Bob in August 2015.
> The biggest stone weighed 2 pounds, it was hard and solid, but they are starting to disintegrate now.
> View attachment 331828
> ...


Thanks for the castor oil warning, I believe you, but do you have any more info on why? due to that I already used it..and he did get a stone out afterwards. Im so sorry to hear about Bob, it breaks my heart.Why did he get the stones if he was so hydrated?
Truth is I dont have 5000 dollars for this, or I can't finish my education, which is a miracle that I am able to do as it is, this is my chance really. I love Tobias, but if someone else could afford the surgery I would be willing to give him to that person. Better alive with someone else than dead with me. If he needs it that is. I still have some hope because the x-rays did not show any stones (tho he pooped one out since then so..) Anyway, Im going to soak him and get some mineral oil tomorrow.

I want to do an enema on him, is that ok??
I saw Kamp Kenan do it to his huge lizard.

Here he is, this beautiful boy


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## Sarah2020 (Aug 28, 2021)

Sorry for the hassle your going through. Try mushing the food so its easier to eat and place on a flat dish he can walk into. Maintain the shallow warm soaks in a high sided container so he can not walk out as hydration is vital and they will drink the water. Another idea for sick tortoise is blended carrot baby food in the soak water, this may be nice tasting and encourage water drinking? Hopefully you will clear the blockage naturally. Please read the care sheet as your tortoise is pyramiding so heat and light, humidity may not be correct.


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## ZenHerper (Aug 28, 2021)

Contact the UC Davis veterinary school -- they may have a price scale or other program.

Harsh enemas and laxative stimulants (like castor oil) are not recommended because tortoises may not be able to pass an obstructive *whathaveyou* through their shell. Internal organs can be damaged. Some mineral oil to lubricate the vent locally is fine (it does not cause intestinal contractions).


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## Rocki (Aug 28, 2021)

ZenHerper said:


> Contact the UC Davis veterinary school -- they may have a price scale or other program.
> 
> Harsh enemas and laxative stimulants (like castor oil) are not recommended because tortoises may not be able to pass an obstructive *whathaveyou* through their shell. Internal organs can be damaged. Some mineral oil to lubricate the vent locally is fine (it does not cause intestinal contractions).


Ok, so you don't recommend getting him to eat mineral oil with food? Just want to be clear..


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## ZenHerper (Aug 28, 2021)

Rocki said:


> Ok, so you don't recommend getting him to eat mineral oil with food? Just want to be clear..


There's no point to lubing the entire digestive tract...the stones are coming from the bladder and are having trouble getting stuck on their short way out. That's where the oil will do the most good.


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## Maggie3fan (Aug 28, 2021)

Rocki said:


> Ok, so you don't recommend getting him to eat mineral oil with food? Just want to be clear..


It is very dangerous to put mineral oil into the mouth...as it can send droplets into the lungs and they suffocate...bad


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## Rocki (Aug 28, 2021)

There is just a lot of inconsistent advise here, its making it hard.
Im not going to sit and do nothing so Ill just have to do what makes sense to me, along with the Vets advice, even though they drive me crazy.


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## Maggie3fan (Aug 28, 2021)

Rocki said:


> There is just a lot of inconsistent advise here, its making it hard.
> Im not going to sit and do nothing so Ill just have to do what makes sense to me, along with the Vets advice, even though they drive me crazy.


I'm sorry...what do you consider inconsistent? Also...think about this, you are not gonna sit by an do nothing? But, your ignorance could hurt or kill your tort. I told you, you can't do anything unless and until you have an xray or MRI to tell you if you have stones, how many and how big...then you will know how to proceed. Right now you don't know what is wrong, so you don't know how to proceed, and if you are going about treating that tort without the proper knowledge it could turn out bad. Get a real exotic vet or call Davis and find out what you have, please


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## Rocki (Aug 28, 2021)

The inconsistency is that one says only feed mineral oil with food, another says that's dangerous. Thats what's inconsistent. The X-rays dont show any blades stones, but he released two of them, that's also inconsistent.
Also find it so off putting that some folks speak with this "please" attitude, is anyone here a vet? it seems the vets are clueless too though, so that's pretty irritating. I posted pictures of the stones he released and they are identical to all bladder stones Ive seen in pictures so far. The vet said they would call me back but they didnt, I called yesterday and today and they are irritated with me and Im the one watching him struggle. I sent a form to get copies of the X-rays, they say it could take 5 days, wtf can take 5 days sending a copy of an X-ray? Im about to get hostile.
Right now what makes sense to me is that he has something in his intestines bc that's what the 'Doc' says and because he is pushing so much he pushed out some small bladder stones he happened to have too that didnt show up in the x Rays. I gave him some mineral oil on a few strawberries he was down to eat ( and yes Im aware strawberries are not ideal but in this moment it makes sense to me that its better with the oil than with not, and the 'doc' seemed to agree). I put some mineral oil in his bottom not too far in and I think its ok as it wasnt far enough to reach a urethra . When I forced those ...people.. to talk to me on the phone earlier we came to that a feeding tube for water and some food would be good and an enema by them, and a calcium supplement are all on the menu. Question is prices and they would "get back to me" Im pretty sure it will be me getting back to them. If its too expensive I will call the Davis school.
Thanks for the help everyone I think Ill take it from here.


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## MenagerieGrl (Aug 29, 2021)

Rocki said:


> There is just a lot of inconsistent advise here, its making it hard.
> Im not going to sit and do nothing so Ill just have to do what makes sense to me, along with the Vets advice, even though they drive me crazy.


Inconsistent advice...? Where? Everything explained here has been pretty clear...


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## Yvonne G (Aug 29, 2021)

Rocki said:


> Hello, is it ok to use castor oil instead of mineral oil for constipation? Rectally inserted. He is dangerously constipated, I believe he got in to some perlite. The vet is too damn slow and I’m not going to sit here and roll my thumbs watching Tobias suffer and potentially die.
> thanks!!


I learned the following by accident because I went off and forgot about a tortoise I was soaking. A few hours later I came back to find a tub full of poop!

Clean your bath tub real good so there's no soap residue. Add enough warm water so it comes up to the middle of his sides - where the top shell meets the bottom shell. Then go away and leave him there. Don't worry about the water getting too cold. It won't get any colder than the temperature of the room. Just peek in at him every so often to make sure he's ok. Scrambling around in the tub, trying to get out, is the best way to get things moving. This has never failed for me.


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## Rocki (Aug 29, 2021)

Got his x-ray! no bladder stones visible, but he release two quail egg sized stones for sure. 
The intestines are not supposed to be so white, it indicates they are full of something dense. The vet say its looks like something mineral dense.


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## howardb (Aug 29, 2021)

I am an MD, not a vet. There is dense material throughout the intestinal tract, as you already know. The vet school at UC Davis is great, and my guess is that they’ll be able to make a diagnosis if you can email the photos of what’s been passed, along with the X-rays, to a reptile vet there (you could send them to a reptile vet anywhere, actually). You should send much smaller files than the huge ones you’re posting! They might be willing to use this as a “teaching case” for vet students and charge a minimal amount (that’s just speculation).


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## William Lee Kohler (Aug 30, 2021)

MenagerieGrl said:


> Inconsistent advice...? Where? Everything explained here has been pretty clear...


Not at all. What he said was correct if you just read it.


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## Rocki (Aug 30, 2021)

howardb said:


> I am an MD, not a vet. There is dense material throughout the intestinal tract, as you already know. The vet school at UC Davis is great, and my guess is that they’ll be able to make a diagnosis if you can email the photos of what’s been passed, along with the X-rays, to a reptile vet there (you could send them to a reptile vet anywhere, actually). You should send much smaller files than the huge ones you’re posting! They might be willing to use this as a “teaching case” for vet students and charge a minimal amount (that’s just speculation).


Thank you much.


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## LAwoman (Aug 31, 2021)

Try to get copies of his X-rays. Then you can by step that right off the start. Good luck on making a very hard decision!


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## Rocki (Aug 31, 2021)

LAwoman said:


> Try to get copies of his X-rays. Then you can by step that right off the start. Good luck on making a very hard decision!


He is getting better! yayayayyaayayay eating a little, pooped a few hard turds. His xrays are posted above.
<3


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## ZenHerper (Aug 31, 2021)

Rocki said:


> He is getting better! yayayayyaayayay eating a little, pooped a few hard turds. His xrays are posted above.
> <3


Great news.

His intestines are packed full of food. Nothing mineral-like showing there. Watch him to make sure he is not eating or accidentally swallowing ordinary dirt.

He is too dry and needs daily soaks if he does not drink. Hopefully you can get him to learn to soak and drink water on his own while he is still small enough to lift. Make sure there are shallow pools around the yard so he can get used to water as a Thing in his environment.


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## Rocki (Aug 31, 2021)

ZenHerper said:


> Great news.
> 
> His intestines are packed full of food. Nothing mineral-like showing there. Watch him to make sure he is not eating or accidentally swallowing ordinary dirt.
> 
> He is too dry and needs daily soaks if he does not drink. Hopefully you can get him to learn to soak and drink water on his own while he is still small enough to lift. Make sure there are shallow pools around the yard so he can get used to water as a Thing in his environment.


Thanks, as he was munching on the lawn yesterday I did notice that a lot of dirt and moss was making its way into him also. How does one prevent that? just longer grass? Maybe it gets cut a little too low.

Also Ill be researching how to teach him to drink more in detail, any tips are welcome.


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## ZenHerper (Aug 31, 2021)

Rocki said:


> Thanks, as he was munching on the lawn yesterday I did notice that a lot of dirt and moss was making its way into him also. How does one prevent that? just longer grass? Maybe it gets cut a little too low.
> 
> Also Ill be researching how to teach him to drink more in detail, any tips are welcome.


Most people use a rotating grass patch system so that animals are grazing long stems and weeds, and are trimming - not destroying - the lawn. As he grows, there will be less need to mow grass he has access to.

The swallowed dirt and woody moss stems will block him up, but will also keep him from digesting and absorbing nutrients. He may also swallow eggs of intestinal parasites when he eats dirt.

As for water. Soaking him every day gives him exposure to water, and will hydrate him. A hydrated body feels better, so in time he should associate the water with how he feels. A few large, shallow pans around the yard will keep "water" in mind. We have members with Sulcata that swim in deeper puddles and ponds, but any soaking/drinking he will do for himself is a Win. It's really a matter of exposure, access, and time.


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## Rocki (Aug 31, 2021)

ZenHerper said:


> Most people use a rotating grass patch system so that animals are grazing long stems and weeds, and are trimming - not destroying - the lawn. As he grows, there will be less need to mow grass he has access to.
> 
> The swallowed dirt and woody moss stems will block him up, but will also keep him from digesting and absorbing nutrients. He may also swallow eggs of intestinal parasites when he eats dirt.
> 
> As for water. Soaking him every day gives him exposure to water, and will hydrate him. A hydrated body feels better, so in time he should associate the water with how he feels. A few large, shallow pans around the yard will keep "water" in mind. We have members with Sulcata that swim in deeper puddles and ponds, but any soaking/drinking he will do for himself is a Win. It's really a matter of exposure, access, and time.


Ok, much thanks!


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