# URGENT! Respiratory infection?



## linusthetort (Sep 28, 2020)

Hello! I have a four-month-old baby male Hermann. A couple of days ago, we noticed that he had bubbles coming out of one of his nostrils (this is not occurring constantly). He does not have any mucus. Occasionally, he also opens his mouth and lunges his neck forward. Furthermore, he sometimes makes a squeaking noise while quickly retracting his head, and he immediately follows up by wiping his face with his front leg. He is acting completely normal. He eats a lot, poops/pees, walks around his enclosure, and burrows. He certainly does not seem to be lethargic (he sprints when he sees food).

Nevertheless, I tried to contact many vets in my area and they either (1) do not take in exotics or (2) have their next openings in a week. However, one vet that I called offered to give me an antibiotic injection (Baytril/enrofloxacin) without doing an exam on my tort. I picked up the injections today and they explained how to do them. I am worried to give him this antibiotic as he did not receive an exam and I am worried about hurting him since he is so small (30 grams). 

What should I do? If he does indeed have a respiratory infection, I do not want to wait until its too late with the antibiotic. I am currently keeping his heat lamp on 24/7 and keeping his humidity low which is what the vet suggested. I scheduled an appointment for 11 days from now. Should I wait for the appointment? Should I keep monitoring his condition and start injecting him if he gets worse?


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## Blackdog1714 (Sep 28, 2020)

Is your tort in a closed chamber or open top enclosure? What are your temperatures-overall/basking/hide and night temp?


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## ruthiepo (Sep 28, 2020)

linusthetort said:


> Hello! I have a four-month-old baby male Hermann. A couple of days ago, we noticed that he had bubbles coming out of one of his nostrils (this is not occurring constantly). He does not have any mucus. Occasionally, he also opens his mouth and lunges his neck forward. Furthermore, he sometimes makes a squeaking noise while quickly retracting his head, and he immediately follows up by wiping his face with his front leg. He is acting completely normal. He eats a lot, poops/pees, walks around his enclosure, and burrows. He certainly does not seem to be lethargic (he sprints when he sees food).
> 
> Nevertheless, I tried to contact many vets in my area and they either (1) do not take in exotics or (2) have their next openings in a week. However, one vet that I called offered to give me an antibiotic injection (Baytril/enrofloxacin) without doing an exam on my tort. I picked up the injections today and they explained how to do them. I am worried to give him this antibiotic as he did not receive an exam and I am worried about hurting him since he is so small (30 grams).
> 
> What should I do? If he does indeed have a respiratory infection, I do not want to wait until its too late with the antibiotic. I am currently keeping his heat lamp on 24/7 and keeping his humidity low which is what the vet suggested. I scheduled an appointment for 11 days from now. Should I wait for the appointment? Should I keep monitoring his condition and start injecting him if he gets worse?





linusthetort said:


> Hello! I have a four-month-old baby male Hermann. A couple of days ago, we noticed that he had bubbles coming out of one of his nostrils (this is not occurring constantly). He does not have any mucus. Occasionally, he also opens his mouth and lunges his neck forward. Furthermore, he sometimes makes a squeaking noise while quickly retracting his head, and he immediately follows up by wiping his face with his front leg. He is acting completely normal. He eats a lot, poops/pees, walks around his enclosure, and burrows. He certainly does not seem to be lethargic (he sprints when he sees food).
> 
> Nevertheless, I tried to contact many vets in my area and they either (1) do not take in exotics or (2) have their next openings in a week. However, one vet that I called offered to give me an antibiotic injection (Baytril/enrofloxacin) without doing an exam on my tort. I picked up the injections today and they explained how to do them. I am worried to give him this antibiotic as he did not receive an exam and I am worried about hurting him since he is so small (30 grams).
> 
> What should I do? If he does indeed have a respiratory infection, I do not want to wait until its too late with the antibiotic. I am currently keeping his heat lamp on 24/7 and keeping his humidity low which is what the vet suggested. I scheduled an appointment for 11 days from now. Should I wait for the appointment? Should I keep monitoring his condition and start injecting him if he gets worse?


Hello, definitely keep him warm, bump up the temperatures day and night and make sure he is hydrated by giving him daily soaks being sure to keep the water warm, nice little chap, hope he soon gets better.


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## KarenSoCal (Sep 28, 2020)

Hello, and welcome to the forum! I'm sorry your baby has the sniffles.

If I'm understanding correctly, one time he had clear discharge from his nose. And he occasionally opens his mouth, pulls his head in, and wipes his face.

I don't think that those signs warrant antibiotics yet. Baytril is a harsh drug. It is very painful for the tortoise, and it can cause tissue around the injection site to die. Where on the tort did the vet tell you to inject?

He may be fighting off an RI though, so we'll give him a little help.

First, whatever temp you keep him at, raise it 5°F. As in we keep babies' ambient and night temp no lower than 80°F (I'm going to let you do the converting). So we would raise it to 85°F. You should do the same. 

I don't know why he said to lower the humidity, unless he's afraid the baby will be cold. Personally, I would raise the temps as above, and leave the humidity at 80%, if that's where you normally keep it.

There are some eye drops that would be great to use if you can get them. Maybe the vet that gave you the Baytril would give you a bottle. You put 1 drop in each eye, and one drop in each nostril, two times daily for 7-10 days. This is what you want...


It says for dogs, but it is what you want. If he gets worse while you are keeping him warm and using the drops, either start the Baytril or get a vet appt and tell the vet you want Fortaz.

If this regimen works, leave the heat up for two weeks after the eye drop treatment is finished.

I'm going to tag some help, just to double check what I've told you. He is an expert on these things.
@zovick


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## linusthetort (Sep 28, 2020)

Blackdog1714 said:


> Is your tort in a closed chamber or open top enclosure? What are your temperatures-overall/basking/hide and night temp?


It's an open-top enclosure. His temps in Fahrenheit are 87 (ambient), 95 (basking), ~76 (night).


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## linusthetort (Sep 28, 2020)

KarenSoCal said:


> Hello, and welcome to the forum! I'm sorry your baby has the sniffles.
> 
> If I'm understanding correctly, one time he had clear discharge from his nose. And he occasionally opens his mouth, pulls his head in, and wipes his face.
> 
> ...


They said to inject it in his pectoral muscle on either side of his head.


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## KarenSoCal (Sep 28, 2020)

linusthetort said:


> They said to inject it in his pectoral muscle on either side of his head.


That's good. I understand the back legs should never be used, but some vets still do it.


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## zovick (Sep 29, 2020)

linusthetort said:


> They said to inject it in his pectoral muscle on either side of his head.


I agree with Karen. Try to get those drops from the vet (or any other vet) and you can use them for a week or so before trying the injections. Place one drop into each eye and one drop into each nostril twice daily for a week to ten days. If you are still concerned and want to use an injectable antibiotic instead of or in addition to the drops, don't inject your tortoise with Baytril. Use ceftazidime (Fortaz) injections instead. Baytril is known to cause extreme pain and tissue necrosis at the injection sites and the doses need to be given more frequently than the ceftazidime doses. 

Dosage of ceftazidime for tortoises is 20 mg per kilo of weight given every three days. In more severe cases, it can be given every other day. For the symptoms your tortoise is showing, I believe every third day would be sufficient. Also, I wish to point out again that the drops can be used in addition to the injections if you wish as I already said. They often help to clear things up more rapidly.


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## linusthetort (Sep 29, 2020)

I think he may have debris in one of his nostrils. He only has bubbles coming out one of his nostrils and he also keeps wiping his face even when there are no bubbles. He still has no other symptoms. Does anyone know how to clear debris?

I found this passage at this link and it seems consistent with what my baby is going through:








Why Does My Leopard Tortoise Have a Bubbly, Wet Nose?


Many owners become concerned when they notice bubbles or liquid seeping from their pet's nose. A healthy tortoise should have clear and dry nostrils, but not every snotty case is a cause for panic.




pethelpful.com





*Cause 2: Foreign Bodies*
A tortoise's nose appears prehistorically tough but is just as sensitive to environmental nasties as a human's. Grass fragments, dust, pollen, too-dry substrate, or a myriad of tiny foreign objects can cause nasal inflammation. Initially not life-threatening, it cannot be ignored either.

Symptomatically, the animal continues to behave healthily and most often maintains a daily routine. In other words, it will eat, drink, browse and snuggle down in a favorite spot. However, there will be signs that something is wrong. At times, the tortoise will be uncomfortable and bothered, especially when the offending piece is a longish piece of grass. To find relief, it might attempt to wipe its nose with a front leg. Needless to say, Leopards don't have fingers to do the job properly and need their owner's assistance to remove whatever is in there.

The bubbles are a result of irritation of the nasal membrane and if the cause is not dealt with, an infection might ensue. As the article will shortly explain, respiratory infection is not something that should be viewed lightly. When tortoises develop respiratory problems, things go downhill very fast.


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## KarenSoCal (Sep 29, 2020)

@Yvonne G is always saying that tortoise noses lead to the back of the mouth, so you won't drown him by flushing. 

Let's see what she suggests in this case.


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## zovick (Sep 29, 2020)

linusthetort said:


> I think he may have debris in one of his nostrils. He only has bubbles coming out one of his nostrils and he also keeps wiping his face even when there are no bubbles. He still has no other symptoms. Does anyone know how to clear debris?
> 
> I found this passage at this link and it seems consistent with what my baby is going through:
> 
> ...


Obtain and use the Neo-Poly-Dex eye drops I recommended. They will flush out the nostrils plus reduce inflammation and kill bacteria.


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## linusthetort (Oct 2, 2020)

Update: I could not get the drops or any other antibiotic from any vet. I gave the first injection of Baytril today and the little guy was pretty traumatized and has been sleeping a lot since. He seems to have lost his appetite now.


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## linusthetort (Oct 22, 2020)

Update: The antibiotics helped clear everything up, but now two weeks later, back to square one. Bubbles and seems to have difficulty breathing. I feel hopeless. Do I just have a sickly tortoise?


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## Yvonne G (Oct 22, 2020)

Just keep him in a very warm environment and don't let it drop below 80F degrees until you're very sure he's completely well.


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## Maro2Bear (Oct 22, 2020)

Greetings. In addition to treating the respiratory issue, need to determine what caused it in the first place. I’m thinking probably too cold of temperatures at night. 

If you havent yet read this rather comprehensice care sheet, pls do. Good luck

 https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sticky-hermanns-tortoise-care-sheet-updated.101410/

Key point here on the temp for babies - “Ambient room temperature should hover around 80-85F during the day and can be allowed to drop into the low 70s at night. _T. hermanni _are capable of withstanding much cooler nighttime temperatures *but if they are very young, it’s wise to not let it drop that low just yet.”*


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## linusthetort (Oct 22, 2020)

Maro2Bear said:


> Greetings. In addition to treating the respiratory issue, need to determine what caused it in the first place. I’m thinking probably too cold of temperatures at night.
> 
> If you havent yet read this rather comprehensice care sheet, pls do. Good luck
> 
> ...


Yeah I think I’m going to get a ceramic heat emitter for the night. Vet prescribed another round of baytril so I’ll be starting that today. I tried to get the drops that @KarenSoCal recommended but they refused to prescribe them since he is a baby and you can’t dose them properly.


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## Tom (Oct 22, 2020)

linusthetort said:


> Yeah I think I’m going to get a ceramic heat emitter for the night. Vet prescribed another round of baytril so I’ll be starting that today. I tried to get the drops that @KarenSoCal recommended but they refused to prescribe them since he is a baby and you can’t dose them properly.


Did you not read what Zovick wrote in post number 8???

"...don't inject your tortoise with Baytril. Use ceftazidime (Fortaz) injections instead. Baytril is known to cause extreme pain and tissue necrosis at the injection sites..."

Injecting Baytril is like injecting bleach into your tortoise. Its extremely caustic.


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## zovick (Oct 22, 2020)

linusthetort said:


> Yeah I think I’m going to get a ceramic heat emitter for the night. Vet prescribed another round of baytril so I’ll be starting that today. I tried to get the drops that @KarenSoCal recommended but they refused to prescribe them since he is a baby and you can’t dose them properly.


HA! But you can torture the baby tortoise by giving it painful Baytril injections which will very likely cause tissue necrosis at the injection site(s)? You can't overdose with those drops. I don't know what the vet is talking about there.

I simply cannot understand the reluctance to use them, unless it is because the vet knew nothing about using the drops on tortoises till you mentioned them and didn't want to show his/her ignorance. After all, you got the recommendation for their use from a licensed health professional who also kept tortoises continuously from 1958 through 2018 and has used those drops many times.


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## shawnateerow (Oct 22, 2020)

KarenSoCal said:


> Hello, and welcome to the forum! I'm sorry your baby has the sniffles.
> 
> If I'm understanding correctly, one time he had clear discharge from his nose. And he occasionally opens his mouth, pulls his head in, and wipes his face.
> 
> ...



I have tobramycin drops for Bonnie's eye. Can those also be used in nose?


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## linusthetort (Oct 22, 2020)

Tom said:


> Did you not read what Zovick wrote in post number 8???
> 
> "...don't inject your tortoise with Baytril. Use ceftazidime (Fortaz) injections instead. Baytril is known to cause extreme pain and tissue necrosis at the injection sites..."
> 
> Injecting Baytril is like injecting bleach into your tortoise. Its extremely caustic.


I don’t want you use the baytril but it’s the only thing they want to prescribe me. I also don’t want to question their authority as they’re the only vet who is actually willing to help me out in my area.


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## Maggie3fan (Oct 22, 2020)

linusthetort said:


> I don’t want you use the baytril but it’s the only thing they want to prescribe me. I also don’t want to question their authority as they’re the only vet who is actually willing to help me out in my area.


Frankly, I am stunned that a supposed experienced veterinarian would give YOU injectable drugs without an exam on the animal. I am also stunned that they would give injectable drugs on such a small baby. I have way experience with injections and I'll gaurentee you that I'd sure think 3 times about sticking a needle into that baby. Also, if he had been eating, at times they blow food bubbles, sorta like snot bubbles. Don't be to excited about this Vet. Giving injectables so randomly is just not protocol. Hey @Yvonne G I know about the Vet that you use, but isn't there one around for this guy in Exeter?


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## Tom (Oct 22, 2020)

linusthetort said:


> I don’t want you use the baytril but it’s the only thing they want to prescribe me. I also don’t want to question their authority as they’re the only vet who is actually willing to help me out in my area.


Question it! YOU are the paying customer and they are using meds that were outdated 20 years ago. They don't know what they are doing and they are doing harm to your tortoise. Don't let them.


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## Maggie3fan (Oct 22, 2020)

There is a Vet list in the index. There's Drs in Bakersfield, Fresno, Modesto. So maybe you might find one on that list? Here,click here
*Tortoise Vet List*


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## lou.and.noodles (Oct 22, 2020)

linusthetort said:


> I don’t want you use the baytril but it’s the only thing they want to prescribe me. I also don’t want to question their authority as they’re the only vet who is actually willing to help me out in my area.


Don't always trust the vet. The vet who worked with louie encouraged forced feeding, which I look back on and realize was a stupid mistake to listen to. Vets are like Doctors for humans. Some doctors are really bad and will give you bad advice. I feel that you should try to find a vet farther out. I know it's a pain to drive far out to a vet place, but I feel it would be better than taking bad advice from a bad vet.


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## KarenSoCal (Oct 23, 2020)

shawnateerow said:


> I have tobramycin drops for Bonnie's eye. Can those also be used in nose?



Are your drops the same as the bottle pictured in post # 4? Or plain tobramycin without the dexamethasone? 
Either way, that's the antibiotic that zovick recommends, so it's fine to use in her nose. The drops in #4 have a steroid added that helps inflammation, so I don't know if plain tobra will be as effective.

I did google the one in post 4. It did say that after long term use (in the eyes) it actually could cause infection, so I wouldn't use it longer than 10 days. How long were you told to use your drops?


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## Mikayla777 (Oct 23, 2020)

linusthetort said:


> Hello! I have a four-month-old baby male Hermann. A couple of days ago, we noticed that he had bubbles coming out of one of his nostrils (this is not occurring constantly). He does not have any mucus. Occasionally, he also opens his mouth and lunges his neck forward. Furthermore, he sometimes makes a squeaking noise while quickly retracting his head, and he immediately follows up by wiping his face with his front leg. He is acting completely normal. He eats a lot, poops/pees, walks around his enclosure, and burrows. He certainly does not seem to be lethargic (he sprints when he sees food).
> 
> Nevertheless, I tried to contact many vets in my area and they either (1) do not take in exotics or (2) have their next openings in a week. However, one vet that I called offered to give me an antibiotic injection (Baytril/enrofloxacin) without doing an exam on my tort. I picked up the injections today and they explained how to do them. I am worried to give him this antibiotic as he did not receive an exam and I am worried about hurting him since he is so small (30 grams).
> 
> What should I do? If he does indeed have a respiratory infection, I do not want to wait until its too late with the antibiotic. I am currently keeping his heat lamp on 24/7 and keeping his humidity low which is what the vet suggested. I scheduled an appointment for 11 days from now. Should I wait for the appointment? Should I keep monitoring his condition and start injecting him if he gets worse?


My baby sulcata had similar symptoms around same time. I went to a vet. They wanted to inject my lil baby with sone sort of antibiotic, generic baytril, but after reading some posts here where the antibiotic had some bad side effects and even was accused of killing a couple of tortoises, i personally decided against it. 

Im more of a natural type person (since Ive personally become sick from an approved fda device,) and I didnt want to risk possibly hurting my lil baby sulcata even worse, I opted to go the natural route and thank God, it worked! I used REPTAID (can buy on amazon) and gave her daily baths in 1/2 water, 1/2 pedialyte. These 2things did the trick for me.

She eventually stopped doing the gasping neck stretch thing over the next few mnths. She very rarely does it now, and bubbles are pretty much gone.

I have sulcata so I had to keep her humid, but perhaps hermans different.

Oh ya, also I made all parts of cage were always 80 or above and especially at night. Hope this helps!


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## shawnateerow (Oct 23, 2020)

KarenSoCal said:


> Are your drops the same as the bottle pictured in post # 4? Or plain tobramycin without the dexamethasone?
> Either way, that's the antibiotic that zovick recommends, so it's fine to use in her nose. The drops in #4 have a steroid added that helps inflammation, so I don't know if plain tobra will be as effective.
> 
> I did google the one in post 4. It did say that after long term use (in the eyes) it actually could cause infection, so I wouldn't use it longer than 10 days. How long were you told to use your drops?



It has been 2 or 3 weeks..he told me to keep using but I stopped. I am trying to use the extra for coopas runny nose


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## linusthetort (Oct 26, 2020)

Thank you all for your input. If this ever happens again I will be sure to press for an alternative to Baytril. Unfortunately, I have to finish the course of these antibiotics in order to prevent the microevolution of the bacteria (which would be quite bad).


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## fernando7kose (Nov 25, 2022)

zovick said:


> Obtain and use the Neo-Poly-Dex eye drops I recommended. They will flush out the nostrils plus reduce inflammation and kill bacteria.





KarenSoCal said:


> Hello, and welcome to the forum! I'm sorry your baby has the sniffles.
> 
> If I'm understanding correctly, one time he had clear discharge from his nose. And he occasionally opens his mouth, pulls his head in, and wipes his face.
> 
> ...


Hi all, I know this is an old thread.
My tort is behaving just like the one described in this thread & I'm looking for ways to not give baytril to my tort.

I'm having trouble finding the exact eye drops, would any of these work just fine? 
Thank you for your help.


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## zovick (Nov 25, 2022)

fernando7kose said:


> Hi all, I know this is an old thread.
> My tort is behaving just like the one described in this thread & I'm looking for ways to not give baytril to my tort.
> 
> I'm having trouble finding the exact eye drops, would any of these work just fine?
> ...


Yes, all of those in the pictures you posted have the same 3 ingredients as the drops which I recommended.

If the drops don't clear it up and you need to inject the tortoise as well, try to use ceftazidime instead of Baytril if at all possible.


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## fernando7kose (Nov 25, 2022)

zovick said:


> Yes, all of those in the pictures you posted have the same 3 ingredients as the drops which I recommended.
> 
> If the drops don't clear it up and you need to inject the tortoise as well, try to use ceftazidime instead of Baytril if at all possible.


Thank you for writing back. Out of those 3, which one would you recommend? I think there is a slight difference in ingredients.

I have bumped up the temp in his enclosure & I'm planning to give him direct sunlight for one hour every morning.

I have been prescribed baytril to be given orally, I have not bought it though. Would this be better for the tort instead of injecting it? 
If it's not better for the tort, I will look for ceftazidime. 

Lastly, would you mind checking my thread out? Please give me any suggestion, thank you so much!
Here is the link : https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/greetings-from-semarang-indonesia.201724/


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## zovick (Nov 26, 2022)

fernando7kose said:


> Thank you for writing back. Out of those 3, which one would you recommend? I think there is a slight difference in ingredients.
> 
> I have bumped up the temp in his enclosure & I'm planning to give him direct sunlight for one hour every morning.
> 
> ...


I already commented on your enclosure in a different thread you posted on 17 October 2022.

The first two medications in your photo are a bit stronger than the last one and those two are the same strength, so I could get either one of the first two.

Oral Baytril is all right to give, it is the injectable type which causes severe pain and tissue damage. However, giving a tortoise oral medication is very inexact because you cannot really control the dosage very well. The good thing is that it is unlikely that you will overdose the tortoise with oral Baytril.


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## fernando7kose (Nov 26, 2022)

zovick said:


> I already commented on your enclosure in a different thread you posted on 17 October 2022.
> 
> The first two medications in your photo are a bit stronger than the last one and those two are the same strength, so I could get either one of the first two.
> 
> Oral Baytril is all right to give, it is the injectable type which causes severe pain and tissue damage. However, giving a tortoise oral medication is very inexact because you cannot really control the dosage very well. The good thing is that it is unlikely that you will overdose the tortoise with oral Baytril.


Thank you so much for the explanation!
Just want to make sure about the dose of the drop, would it be safe if I follow this instruction? 
"You put 1 drop in each eye, and one drop in each nostril, two times daily for 7-10 days."

I also posted the x-ray result & video of my star's clicking sound while breathing in the thread that I linked above. If you don't mind, would you please check it out? Thank you so much for the earlier comment about the enclosure too .


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## zovick (Nov 26, 2022)

fernando7kose said:


> Thank you so much for the explanation!
> Just want to make sure about the dose of the drop, would it be safe if I follow this instruction?
> "You put 1 drop in each eye, and one drop in each nostril, two times daily for 7-10 days."
> 
> I also posted the x-ray result & video of my star's clicking sound while breathing in the thread that I linked above. If you don't mind, would you please check it out? Thank you so much for the earlier comment about the enclosure too .


Yes, the dose is correct.

The tortoise has a respiratory infection. The combination of the drops and whatever amount of Baytril you can get into it should help. If not, get injectable ceftazidime and use that.


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## fernando7kose (Nov 26, 2022)

zovick said:


> Yes, the dose is correct.
> 
> The tortoise has a respiratory infection. The combination of the drops and whatever amount of Baytril you can get into it should help. If not, get injectable ceftazidime and use that.


Thank you so much, I will do as advised. Hopefully the tort will be better soon.


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