# Can two adult males live together?



## Besh1994 (Apr 18, 2020)

Hello tortoise community  !
I’m really in a shock right now, because guess what? I have just found out that I was wrong for 2 years and my female tortoise is not a female, she’s a MALE ! I saw her mating with my other adult male tortoise, she was on top of him and I was like mind blown ! Now that all of them are adult males, I’m worried if it’s k for them to live together in the same enclosure or not? Knowing that they sometimes fight, and the mating thing too. (They’re in the same size around 15*20cm)
Also, I’ve read before that males sometimes mate other males so i’m not shocked with this one, but i’m shocked for the fact that she’s a male now, and I’m afraid if they should be separated or not.


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## ZenHerper (Apr 18, 2020)

First of all, females can express social dominance by mounting. If you post some closer photos of your tortoises, including their plastrons and tails, we can help you determine their sex for sure.

Second, tortoises are solitary animals. They are very territorial. In pairs, no matter the sex, one becomes more dominant and then aggressive.

Larger groups can fare better than pairs because individuals cannot fixate on any single other animal. But most tortoises are happiest living alone.

Welcome! Let us know if you have other questions.


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## Tom (Apr 18, 2020)

Besh1994 said:


> Hello tortoise community  !
> I’m really in a shock right now, because guess what? I have just found out that I was wrong for 2 years and my female tortoise is not a female, she’s a MALE ! I saw her mating with my other adult male tortoise, she was on top of him and I was like mind blown ! Now that all of them are adult males, I’m worried if it’s k for them to live together in the same enclosure or not? Knowing that they sometimes fight, and the mating thing too. (They’re in the same size around 15*20cm)
> Also, I’ve read before that males sometimes mate other males so i’m not shocked with this one, but i’m shocked for the fact that she’s a male now, and I’m afraid if they should be separated or not.


Perfect advice from ZenHerper. 

Mounting does not equal male, and they should never be housed as a pair regardless of sexes. You definitely need to separate them ASAP.


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## Besh1994 (Apr 18, 2020)

ZenHerper said:


> First of all, females can express social dominance by mounting. If you post some closer photos of your tortoises, including their plastrons and tails, we can help you determine their sex for sure.
> 
> Second, tortoises are solitary animals. They are very territorial. In pairs, no matter the sex, one becomes more dominant and then aggressive.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your great reply! 
Please find the attachments.

And for the mounting, I saw them doing actual mating and there was a mating sound coming out of her mouth, so is this considered as mating or females does this as just mounting?

Do you recommend that they should be housed separately? They won’t feel lonely?


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## Besh1994 (Apr 18, 2020)

Tom said:


> Perfect advice from ZenHerper.
> 
> Mounting does not equal male, and they should never be housed as a pair regardless of sexes. You definitely need to separate them ASAP.


Omg, thank you! I didn’t know that this would be wrong to house them together regardless of sexes! I’ll separate them, but may I know why tortoises should be housed individually?


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## ZenHerper (Apr 18, 2020)

Besh1994 said:


> Thank you for your great reply!
> Please find the attachments.
> 
> And for the mounting, I saw them doing actual mating and there was a mating sound coming out of her mouth, so is this considered as mating or females does this as just mounting?
> ...



Solitary species of animals, by definition, do not feel loneliness. They only seek out others of their kind for mating...then they happily go their separate ways again.

Mounting, as a behavior, is non-specific. That is, it can be used for mating (and you would see the male's penis). Or mounting can be used to express territorial or social dominance. 

Females of many kinds of animals mount for non-sexual reasons.


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## Besh1994 (Apr 18, 2020)

ZenHerper said:


> Solitary species of animals, by definition, do not feel loneliness. They only seek out others of their kind for mating...then they happily go their separate ways again.
> 
> Mounting, as a behavior, is non-specific. That is, it can be used for mating (and you would see the male's penis). Or mounting can be used to express territorial or social dominance.
> 
> Females of many kinds of animals mount for non-sexual reasons.


Great explanation, I get it now ?
And regarding their sex, I’ve attached pictures for both of my tortoises, the dark one is a male(I saw his penis earlier) and the other one I did not see yet and i’m confused if you could tell me what’s it’s sex I’d appreciate it.


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## ZenHerper (Apr 18, 2020)

Besh1994 said:


> Great explanation, I get it now ?
> And regarding their sex, I’ve attached pictures for both of my tortoises, the dark one is a male(I saw his penis earlier) and the other one I did not see yet and i’m confused if you could tell me what’s it’s sex I’d appreciate it.



The smaller dark one is male. 

My internet provider is having trouble loading photos today...

@Tom ?


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## Tom (Apr 18, 2020)

Besh1994 said:


> Omg, thank you! I didn’t know that this would be wrong to house them together regardless of sexes! I’ll separate them, but may I know why tortoises should be housed individually?


Both are male. Two boys.

They don't have to be housed individually. In large enclosures with one mature male and 2-4 females, they can usually get along fine. Or groups of three or more juveniles or babies can get along okay. A group of all females might also work out. The problem is pairs. Its very personal with only one individual to constantly focus on. In any pair, one will be dominant and one will be submissive.

As Will has pointed out, this is the case even with animals as simple as flat worms (Platyhelminthes). Even primitive animals are bound by this concept. In solitary animals like tortoises, the dominant one tells the submissive one to leave, but it can't in our escape proof enclosures.

Tortoise communication can be subtle, at least as far as us humans perceive it. They don't growl. Their rigid beaks with no lips cannot form a snarl. They have no hair to hackle up, but they show their signs of discontent just as clearly for people who know what to look for. Mounting, following, head bobbing, cuddling (which is really crowding), sleeping in the same space, resting face to face, sitting on the food, etc... All of these things are clear and obvious tortoise hostility, but few people recognize these signs. They look only for ramming and biting, which are end stage overt attacks that come well after all these other signs have been ignored.

This constant chronic stress is hard on both the dominant and the submissive. Imagine if aliens came down and locked you in an inescapable room with someone who hated you with a deep seated loathing. In some cases there would be a fight right away, as in two men put into a room like this, but many times, there would be a terrible sense of uncomfortableness and seething anger that would simmer just under the surface for days or weeks. This low level discomfort hampers the immune system and appetite too in some cases, and makes of a general lack of peace. They can survive it, but its not good for them.

Single is best. They all like to be the sole king or queen of their own castle. Groups can sometimes work. Pairs never work.


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## ZenHerper (Apr 18, 2020)

<-- not Will

#justsaying


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## Tom (Apr 18, 2020)

ZenHerper said:


> <-- not Will
> 
> #justsaying


Sorry for the confusion. Will @Kapidolo Farms has used this as an example in past discussions.


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## Besh1994 (Apr 18, 2020)

Wow!
i


Tom said:


> Both are male. Two boys.
> 
> They don't have to be housed individually. In large enclosures with one mature male and 2-4 females, they can usually get along fine. Or groups of three or more juveniles or babies can get along okay. A group of all females might also work out. The problem is pairs. Its very personal with only one individual to constantly focus on. In any pair, one will be dominant and one will be submissive.
> 
> ...


wow!
I really enjoyed reading your explanation, actually I was smiling so wide! What a huge world of tortoises that I’ve missed! I’m so glad to know such info about them, it’s so interesting.
now I love tortoises even more lol ?

I usually read about tortoises, but I’ve never read such important info like this before. Thank you so much!

Well, I‘ll separate them so each one can have their own castle !

One last thing, will they live happy and fine without females? Or I have to bring females for them?


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## Cathie G (Apr 18, 2020)

Besh1994 said:


> Great explanation, I get it now ?
> And regarding their sex, I’ve attached pictures for both of my tortoises, the dark one is a male(I saw his penis earlier) and the other one I did not see yet and i’m confused if you could tell me what’s it’s sex I’d appreciate it.


Hummingbirds are like that too. They love a good fight until it's time to breed. When they're done a second later the fights on...I don't want to even guess the gender. What I've seen though is a female beating the tar out of a male every chance she got. She kept trying to mount him and it was a huge enclosure.


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