# Is it okay to keep tortoises in pairs?



## Sherrythetortoise (Aug 21, 2017)

so I have two small tortoises, one herman's male, and a spur thighed female
I'm new to tortoises world though 
So I used to keep them together but then I was told that it's not ok to keep them in pairs 
It may cause stress/ illness 
So I never kept them together since then 
But today I got them out of their houses and let them walk 
Then they saw each other and they seem to miss each, he was sniffing her and following her 
They seem to like each other but im not sure tho

So I wanted to know if it's ok that they can see each other from time to time or the tortoises in general seem to not like other tortoises


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## Gillian M (Aug 21, 2017)

Sherrythetortoise said:


> so I have two small tortoises, one herman's male, and a spur thighed female
> I'm new to tortoises world though
> So I used to keep them together but then I was told that it's not ok to keep them in pairs
> It may cause stress/ illness
> ...


Welcome to the forum!

Torts do not like "company" if so I may call it. Bullying may begin.

Are you sure that one is a male and the other a female?

Please post pics of your torts asap. Give them daily soaks in warm water so as to avoid dehydration & pyramiding, particularly if you live in a country where the climate is a dry one.


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## Sherrythetortoise (Aug 21, 2017)

Thanks for the quick replay
Yeah I'm pretty sure they're a male and female
Not sure if have a clear pic rn
But I'll post anyways


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## Sherrythetortoise (Aug 21, 2017)

The first one is the male and the second is the female


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## Gillian M (Aug 21, 2017)

Sherrythetortoise said:


> The first one is the male and the second is the female


They are gorgeous! GOD bless.

We'd have to see the tails of your cute torts to make sure which is the female and which is the male.

(By the way, I live in Amman/Jordan. Very near).


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## the Turtle Shepherd (Aug 21, 2017)

my torts like company, those that don't - get separated but 99.9 % they love it they told me


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## Sherrythetortoise (Aug 21, 2017)

Gillian Moore said:


> They are gorgeous! GOD bless.
> 
> We'd have to see the tails of your cute torts to make sure which is the female and which is the male.
> 
> (By the way, I live in Amman/Jordan. Very near).


Thanks! 
One has a taller tail and the second has a pretty short one


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## Sherrythetortoise (Aug 21, 2017)

the Turtle Shepherd said:


> my torts like company, those that don't - get separated but 99.9 % they love it they told me



That's cute, I wonder if mine likes company too


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Aug 21, 2017)

Sherrythetortoise said:


> That's cute, I wonder if mine likes company too


Torts don't like friends they don't even like their baby's !!!!


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## wellington (Aug 21, 2017)

There are a million threads about this subject and why it should not happen. Search them out and you will see all the reasons why it's such a bad idea.


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## Sherrythetortoise (Aug 21, 2017)

But if it's so then how do they breed?


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## Big Charlie (Aug 21, 2017)

Sherrythetortoise said:


> But if it's so then how do they breed?


As has been said before, it is fine to keep a group of 3 or more tortoises, like 1 male and several females. It also helps to have lots of room so they aren't crowded.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 21, 2017)

Tortoises are solitary and territorial animals, they patrol their territories and chase away intruders. They neither want nor need friends or company. Yes, they occasionally come together to mate, but this is not lovemaking this is virtually rape. In nature the female can escape a huge distance after copulation but in captivity she can't and in a pair of one male to one female she can literally end up dying thorough the males advances. Keepers will put a male with a female for a brief time only.
Groups can sometimes work, particularly with one male and several females where the attention is divided, but pairs just don't work.
She will not like his attention, he is not even the same species, which is all wrong, too.
Check out http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...together-a-lesson-learned-the-hard-way.94114/
and http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pairs.34837/
and http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/mixing-species.139808/
There are dozens more threads on why both of these practices are dangerous.


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## Jbrez (Aug 21, 2017)

This topic seems to come up weekly. For me the risk is to high of messing one of the two torts up. Yeah it may work once in a while, but not very often. The people who are saying it don't work have tried it and have seen first hand what can happen. The people who say they do it also say they are equipped to separate them if need be. Or we hope they are. It's all about the torts best interest not what we think is best.


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## Ramsey (Aug 21, 2017)

Hi,

If I am understanding correctly, there are really two separate issues going on here.

1) keeping tortoises of the same species as pairs: generally a bad idea, but I'd still like to see more scientific based data to back up the passionate claims.

2) keeping separate species together: never a good idea to mix species. Opens the door to spread of diseases and other issues. That applies to most species, except of course, humans and dogs; they seem to kiss each other as nosium and live just fine.


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## Loritort (Aug 21, 2017)

Ramsey said:


> Hi,
> 
> If I am understanding correctly, there are really two separate issues going on here.
> 
> ...


Great post! My experience with keeping two Russians together was bad. They seemed friendly at first until the elder began biting the baby. I freaked out and removed the 'instigator ". I didn't want to come home to a seriously injured baby. Appropriate space and separate enclosures are essential. I've definitely learned a few things about tortoise keeping over the last few months. Some say it works, I say you're playing with fire.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 21, 2017)

Ramsey said:


> Hi,
> 
> If I am understanding correctly, there are really two separate issues going on here.
> 
> ...


1) Your argument for 2) also supports 1). A second tortoise needs to be quarantined before introduction to the first. Now, scientific data needs to be carried out, where possible in laboratory conditions and this is not something that many tortoise owners would be prepared to do, put their tortoises in pairs and see how many kill each other. However empirical evidence, which is considered valid can include evidence gathered through observation and experience as well as by direct experimentation. Read the threads I linked, put "pairs" into the search function on this site, the overwhelming majority show that pairs don't work.
Yes, there seem to be exceptions , though it could be argued in many cases that anthropocentric tendencies incline people to believe that some tortoises are "cuddling", "sharing" , "snuggling" or what have you, leading to results that are more in favour of pairs than perhaps they should be. Even if they do work on occasion, and I am willing to accept it is possible, why take the risk when the vast majority of the thousands of cases that I have read about or witnessed don't end well ?
2) Agreed. (though you might mean " ad nauseam " ?)


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## Loritort (Aug 21, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> 1) Your argument for 2) also supports 1). A second tortoise needs to be quarantined before introduction to the first. Now, scientific data needs to be carried out, where possible in laboratory conditions and this is not something that many tortoise owners would be prepared to do, put their tortoises in pairs and see how many kill each other. However empirical evidence, which is considered valid can include evidence gathered through observation and experience as well as by direct experimentation. Read the threads I linked, put "pairs" into the search function on this site, the overwhelming majority show that pairs don't work.
> Yes, there seem to be exceptions , though it could be argued
> in many cases that anthropocentric tendencies incline people to believe that some tortoises are "cuddling", "sharing" , "snuggling" or what have you, leading to results that are more in favour of pairs than perhaps they should be. Even if they do work on" occasion, and I am willing to accept it is possible, why take the risk when the vast majority of the thousands of cases that I have read about or witnessed don't end well ?
> 2) Agreed. (though you might mean " ad nauseam " ?)



Agreed. Very well stated.


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## Loritort (Aug 21, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> 1) Your argument for 2) also supports 1). A second tortoise needs to be quarantined before introduction to the first. Now, scientific data needs to be carried out, where possible in laboratory conditions and this is not something that many tortoise owners would be prepared to do, put their tortoises in pairs and see how many kill each other. However empirical evidence, which is considered valid can include evidence gathered through observation and experience as well as by direct experimentation. Read the threads I linked, put "pairs" into the search function on this site, the overwhelming majority show that pairs don't work.
> Yes, there seem to be exceptions , though it could be argued in many cases that anthropocentric tendencies incline people to believe that some tortoises are "cuddling", "sharing" , "snuggling" or what have you, leading to results that are more in favour of pairs than perhaps they should be. Even if they do work on occasion, and I am willing to accept it is possible, why take the risk when the vast majority of the thousands of cases that I have read about or witnessed don't end well ?
> 2) Agreed. (though you might mean " ad nauseam " ?)


Tid, just want you to know that I enjoy your posts. They are always spot on. Thank you


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## Tom (Aug 21, 2017)

Ramsey said:


> Hi,
> 
> If I am understanding correctly, there are really two separate issues going on here.
> 
> ...



As with most things tortoise: Who would fund this study? Who would carry out this research? How would this scientific research be carried out? I've never had scientists knocking on my door asking to study how well my my tortoises get along. Further, as Adam pointed out, your "average" tortoise keeper frequently does not recognize the signs of tortoise aggression when they are looking right at it. They anthropomorphize and call chasing and harassment "following", or they call crowding and attempted displacement "cuddling". We've had at least three youtube videos posted on this forum of one tortoise ramming another tortoise that was labeled "helping". Two tortoises fighting and one ends up on its back. Then the video starts and the aggressor again rams its upside down rival and rights it. In one video the aggressor then proceeds to chase the loser out of its territory. In another of these videos, the aggressor is lining up for another broadside ram just as the video cuts. I understand the general public not grasping this concept, but tortoise keepers on this very forum responded with comments of how cute and wonderful it was that these tortoises were "helping" their "friends" who inexplicably found themselves upside down on flat ground for some odd reason.

I don't have any "scientific" data, but I have more than 30 years of seeing disaster after disaster. I'd prefer to not see even one more disaster due to this practice. Like the lady with the pair of red foots that ignored the advice to separate her tortoises, and then came back 6 weeks later asking what to do because one tortoise had literally eaten the tail and back leg of the other. Or Murray's thread about his juvenile russians featuring the picture of the tortoise with a bloody hole where its eye used to be. I don't know what evidence could be more compelling than that...


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## Tom (Aug 21, 2017)

Sherrythetortoise said:


> so I have two small tortoises, one herman's male, and a spur thighed female
> I'm new to tortoises world though
> So I used to keep them together but then I was told that it's not ok to keep them in pairs
> It may cause stress/ illness
> ...



No, it is not oaky to keep them in pairs. And its also not okay to mix species, or allow breeding activity between two different species.


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## Ramsey (Aug 23, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> 1)
> 2) Agreed. (though you might mean " ad nauseam " ?)



Correct, I'm on a cruise ship and only have my phone and limited data signal at that. You got the idea.


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## Ramsey (Aug 23, 2017)

Tom said:


> As with most things tortoise: Who would fund this study? Who would carry out this research? How would this scientific research be carried out? I've never had scientists knocking on my door asking to study how well my my tortoises get along. Further, as Adam pointed out, your "average" tortoise keeper frequently does not recognize the signs of tortoise aggression when they are looking right at it. They anthropomorphize and call chasing and harassment "following", or they call crowding and attempted displacement "cuddling". We've had at least three youtube videos posted on this forum of one tortoise ramming another tortoise that was labeled "helping". Two tortoises fighting and one ends up on its back. Then the video starts and the aggressor again rams its upside down rival and rights it. In one video the aggressor then proceeds to chase the loser out of its territory. In another of these videos, the aggressor is lining up for another broadside ram just as the video cuts. I understand the general public not grasping this concept, but tortoise keepers on this very forum responded with comments of how cute and wonderful it was that these tortoises were "helping" their "friends" who inexplicably found themselves upside down on flat ground for some odd reason.
> 
> I don't have any "scientific" data, but I have more than 30 years of seeing disaster after disaster. I'd prefer to not see even one more disaster due to this practice. Like the lady with the pair of red foots that ignored the advice to separate her tortoises, and then came back 6 weeks later asking what to do because one tortoise had literally eaten the tail and back leg of the other. Or Murray's thread about his juvenile russians featuring the picture of the tortoise with a bloody hole where its eye used to be. I don't know what evidence could be more compelling than that...



That's pretty compelling! Nice post.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 23, 2017)

Ramsey said:


> Correct, I'm on a cruise ship and only have my phone and limited data signal at that. You got the idea.


Indeed. 
Though I'm not feeling too much sympathy for you being stuck on a cruise ship !
Poor chap.


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## Ramsey (Aug 23, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Indeed.
> Though I'm not feeling too much sympathy for you being stuck on a cruise ship !
> Poor chap.



We're up in Alaska and every where we've been the humidity has been 97% or higher. I had no idea to expect this. It would be a Mecca for hatchlings if the temps were higher. The rainforests are unreal.

Wonder if there are any keepers on the site who live here.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 23, 2017)

Ramsey said:


> We're up in Alaska and every where we've been the humidity has been 97% or higher. I had no idea to expect this. It would be a Mecca for hatchlings if the temps were higher. The rainforests are unreal.
> 
> Wonder if there are any keepers on the site who live here.


Yes, we have Alaskan keepers, though they seem to all be moving south. 
Can't think why............
I'd love to go.
One day...................
Enjoy yourself!


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Aug 23, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Yes, we have Alaskan keepers, though they seem to all be moving south.
> Can't think why............
> I'd love to go.
> One day...................
> Enjoy yourself!


They are all moving to Az ! They like to see roses at Christmas time !


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## TammyJ (Aug 23, 2017)

I don't think we should all go together on the cruise ship to Alaska. No sireee.
This may end in absolute disaster due to dominance and territorial issues.
But I do love how this thread is turning out so "nice"!
NO to tortoises in pairs.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 23, 2017)

TammyJ said:


> I don't think we should all go together on the cruise ship to Alaska. No sireee.
> This may end in absolute disaster due to dominance and territorial issues.
> But I do love how this thread is turning out so "nice"!
> NO to tortoises in pairs.


Indeed.
Boo to pairs, thanks, Tammy, we seem to have wandered rather off topic.


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## Ramsey (Aug 23, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Indeed.
> Boo to pairs, thanks, Tammy, we seem to have wandered rather off topic.



Sorry, guilty as charged! Lol.


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## Big Charlie (Aug 23, 2017)

Ramsey said:


> We're up in Alaska and every where we've been the humidity has been 97% or higher. I had no idea to expect this. It would be a Mecca for hatchlings if the temps were higher. The rainforests are unreal.
> 
> Wonder if there are any keepers on the site who live here.


I have another internet friend who is also on an Alaskan cruise. You might be on the same ship.


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## Ramsey (Aug 23, 2017)

Big Charlie said:


> I have another internet friend who is also on an Alaskan cruise. You might be on the same ship.



Could be. There are at least 4 other ships on the same route, and that is a "slow week" according to the locals. Depending on your friend's age, I can guestimate which he/she is on.


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## Big Charlie (Aug 23, 2017)

Ramsey said:


> Could be. There are at least 4 other ships on the same route, and that is a "slow week" according to the locals. Depending on your friend's age, I can guestimate which he/she is on.


I think she is in her late 50s or early 60s.


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## TammyJ (Aug 24, 2017)

Big Charlie said:


> I think she is in her late 50s or early 60s.


This would put her at even greater risk for unwelcome and even aggressive male (or other female) approaches including butting and ramming.


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## Sherrythetortoise (Aug 25, 2017)

Thanks guys for the explanation 
I'm new to tortoises world I've never thought it'd be that bad


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## Big Charlie (Aug 25, 2017)

TammyJ said:


> This would put her at even greater risk for unwelcome and even aggressive male (or other female) approaches including butting and ramming.


lol, I was talking about my friend that is on an Alaskan cruise, not a tort!


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## TammyJ (Aug 26, 2017)

Big Charlie said:


> lol, I was talking about my friend that is on an Alaskan cruise, not a tort!


Aw shucks, I know that!! Just trying to get back on topic....lol!!!


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