# RNS leopard tortoise



## snoit83 (Jan 18, 2013)

I noticed my leopard tort has a bubbly nose....darn it!! I took him to the vet and of course he didn't bubble the whole time we were in there so he didn't run a culture. He said to increase his temps which I had already done and told me to call him in a week if his condition did not approve. He started "yawning" so I called him. He prescribed clarithromycin every 48 hours for a month. I am concerned because we did not do a culture and I just moved to Florida and he is the first vet I have used for my exotic family. Man I miss Dr. White. I got the referral from here so I hope he knows what he is doing. 
General info on Leonard the leopard. He is inside for the winter. He just went through a stressful move of 18 hours on December 2nd. He is alone in a 40gal breeder. I keep it clean. Timothy hay for substrate. I feed a variety of greens mixed with cucumber, squash, zucchini, bell pepper and cactus when I can find it. I try to coat it is the small hay pieces because he won't eat straight hay. He is still eating everyday and defecating every other day. I soak him everyday now that I raised his temps. Low of 88 and high of 105. Any input would be greatly appreciated. I'm really worried about him! I am south of Ocala if anyone knows of any great vets!! I would love a second opinion!! I have a savings account for them so I don't mind spending it! Please help!


Also....I feel like my torts shouldn't get sick if I'm doing everything I am supposed to do. Anything u can tell me to improve their quality of life would be greatly appreciated. I really just want them to be happy and healthy. They are all rescues from bad situations and I would hate to think that I put them in another one. I have read mixed reviews on feeding everyday but I hate to take Leonard off food while he is sick. Especially since he will spit and pull out hay from his mouth when he can. When he is outside I plant grass from sulcatafood.com. I hot him at the end of fall in Texas last year. Which it was still hot enough to have him outside during the day. I did see him graze a bit on fresh grass then. I haven't had time to grow grass yet because it gets close to freezing at night now. Any suggestions other than soaking hay to get him to eat it?


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## wellington (Jan 18, 2013)

I would get him off the hay. Use coconut coir for substrate. Get the humidity to 80% with temps no lower then 80 day and night with the basking 95-100. Stop feeding the cucumber, zucchini, peppers and squash. Feed, grasses, weeds, dark leafy greens, cactus, Mazuri, hibiscus, mulberry leaves. Young leopards won't eat hay. I would keep the temps 85 and no lower, until you feel he is better. Read the threads below in my post to learn the proper way of housing and raising a leopard. The sulcata threads are good also, as they are pretty much raised the same.


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## snoit83 (Jan 18, 2013)

Ok. I will read those right now! The humidity is between 50-80 in their room. Dark leafy greens are the majority of his diet. The other is usually just a small treat I feed to get him less afraid of my hand and to get him.to eat his meds. I will switch his substrate tomorrow. I read that coir can constipate them. I read that play sand is good with a mix of coir. Is that true? If so can I use sand from my yard
It has not been sprayed it anything. Virgin ground.


Ok....sand is not ok... just read that. Sorry


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## wellington (Jan 18, 2013)

Cypress mulch or orchard bark is also fine to use. Plain dirt is fine, just not the sand. I personally like the coconut coir the best. Does not mold, holds humidity the best of anything out there and does not cause impaction. I use the fine stuff that has no stringy stuff or chunks in it.


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## snoit83 (Jan 18, 2013)

Ok.... I'm on it! I will pick some up tomorrow and switch out. I assume I should switch my sulcatas too. They are ina kiddie pool with the same set up....man.... that's a lot or coir! Oh well if its best for them.its good for me. Frank will eat anything in his enclosure. New substrate, new hide spots, fingers, his leg, ;-) anytjing
So you're sure it won't hurt them?


Not that I'm questioning you.... that's not what I meant. I just know if Frank likes the taste of it he will eat it


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## snoit83 (Jan 19, 2013)

I got coconut fiber. The compressed one you add water too. Bought two stores out. The second large batch is soaking now while I went to the manatee festival. I got Leonard set up with an 4" area of 6" deep hay for a feeding area and 4" deep wet coconut fiber and an inch of dry fiber. His last enclosure had grass growing in it because I used soil from outside so I planted some grass and I will water it everyday when I soak him. He of course has his hide pot buried. I would upload a picture but I can't seem to with my phone. Does that sound acceptable? The rest is going in with my sullies.


And thank you so much! I read all the posts you sent and I commend you! I will keep them much wetter. I don't want any more pyramiding! Frank my big sulcata was horrible when I got him. The rescue named him hot dog because he was so long and bumpy. His new growth is smooth and for two summers now he has been outside with a mist at one end of his area. He hangs out in it and sun bathes for 2-4 hours. Darn I wish I could show pictures!


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## Yvonne G (Jan 19, 2013)

If you end up having to take the tortoise to the vet, please make the vet aware that some leopard tortoises are allergic to Baytril (the antibiotic of choice for respiratory problems in tortoises).


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## snoit83 (Jan 19, 2013)

I read that and I definitely let him know when I called back. It seemed to me with my readings that clarithromycin was affective in some desert tortoises for upper resp problems. But without a culture I am nervous. Does anyone have any experience with this drug? He is still eating. Third dose, sixth day, was today. Not much change. I didn't see any mouth breathing today so that is good. I hope the bedding change helps.


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## snoit83 (Jan 21, 2013)

Looks like he is getting a tad bit better. Not as many bubbles in the morning. Gave him another dose of Med today. Fingers crossed.


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## biochemnerd808 (Jan 21, 2013)

The coco coir is great stuff. I buy it in the 3-pack in brick form (sometimes I get lucky and find a buy-one-get-one-free sale for $7.99 for a 3-pack). I love it because like @wellington said, it doesn't get mouldy and it holds moisture well, and if some is ingested, it will just be digested or go through. It won't cause impaction. 

I take 1 brick and put it in a large garbage bag, then pour a gallon of very warm water on it, then knot the bag and walk away. 30 mins later, I punch the bag a few times from the outside to mix it up, and put it into the tort table. It takes 7 bricks to fill my 'big' table, and 3 bricks for my smaller table. The burrow has 5-8 inches, the rest of the table has 4ish inches. Once a week I pour a little more warm water on it, and mix it up. I also have a flat rock in the basking area, and a flat rock in the middle of the table that I feed on. This helps keep the substrate off the food, and helps keep beaks short. 

I clean poop up daily, and urates generally only 'happen' in the water, so I can usually keep one 'batch' of coco coir in the tort fort for about 3 months. Then I just chuck it all into the compost - biodegradable! 

Good luck, I hope your little tort gets well soon!



snoit83 said:


> Ok.... I'm on it! I will pick some up tomorrow and switch out. I assume I should switch my sulcatas too. They are ina kiddie pool with the same set up....man.... that's a lot or coir! Oh well if its best for them.its good for me. Frank will eat anything in his enclosure. New substrate, new hide spots, fingers, his leg, ;-) anytjing
> So you're sure it won't hurt them?
> 
> 
> Not that I'm questioning you.... that's not what I meant. I just know if Frank likes the taste of it he will eat it


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## snoit83 (Feb 21, 2013)

Got back from the vet today... finally was able to get a culture. Had to get up at 5 to be there by 8 but its totally worth it if they can grow something. Now for the waiting game.


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## luvpetz27 (Feb 21, 2013)

I hope the culture turns
out ok!! I can tell you have a
huge heart and want the best for
your torts!!! That is great!! 
You have A LOT of pets!! Wow! 
I bet they keep you on your toes!! 
Good luck and keep us posted!!


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## snoit83 (Feb 22, 2013)

Thank you so much! They do keep my on my toes but it is totally worth it everyday day! I just hope we can get Leonard to stop blowing bubbles! He is still eating and acting normal so I have high hopes. Thank you so.much for your kind words!


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## snoit83 (Mar 2, 2013)

Well culture is back.. no mycoplasma so that's good. Bad part is that he needs another culture for basic bacteria that will cost $165 and another 4 hour car ride. All worth it of we can make him better. This is why i have a savings account for vet visits. He is still eating so the sooner the better!!! Wish us luck! The vet was kind enough not to charge us another office visit for the second culture! How wonderful!


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## snoit83 (Mar 15, 2013)

Ok I have all the culture resluts back. neg for mycoplasma. moderate growth for citrobacter Freundii and moderate growth for Pantoea Agglomerans. So now what?! My vet said he was referring me to a specialist and that is $110 just to walk in the door and it is over 2 and 1/2 hours away! they are basic bacteria that are responsive to antibiotics. Should i just ask my vet to prescribe something other than baytil or should I suck it up and take him to the specialist. My savings account is dwindling fast with all these cultures. If you guys think that is what is best for him then i will make an appointment for next tuesday. Just to recap he was on clarithromycin for 4 weeks in february with little improvement. As of today he is still eating and his temps are still raised. I increased the humidity and of course picking up all feces in his enclosure everyday. He is wearing tracks where he is walking and he still seems to have a normal activity level. Please help!! I just want Leonard to get better!!


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## johnreuk (Mar 15, 2013)

Have you tried nebulisation? I couldn't see anything mentioned, but I apologise if I missed it!!


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## snoit83 (Mar 22, 2013)

Anyone?! I told them I wanted antibiotics but no baytril so what do I get? Injectable baytril (given orally) and metroconazole. I'm afraid to give home the baytril in case he had a reaction and its 2 hours to the vet! I offered to pay my old vet for a phone consultation but I know he is always slammed because he is the best! (Props to Dr. White briarcrest Houston tx. The people at the clinic must hate me!! I've called them all week. I cried this morning. They must think I'm crazy. I think im gonna bite the $110 vet visit for a specialist. I talked to that clinic today and she said she wouldn't do a phone consultation either (as that will be a 5 hour car ride for Leonard) but she is willing to talk to the original vet. If I can't get them to talk to each other before Tuesday I'm going to take him to the specialist. In your experiences what have you given your leopard torts?


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## deadheadvet (Mar 25, 2013)

You have a couple of options at this point.
1. Have your vet send a sterile swab to the Univ. of Fla. for a PCR for Mycoplasma.
It will be a yes or no. (200$)
Then picking the right antibiotic will make more sense. Tazicef is probably the best choice. Every 3 days but by injection.
That's what I would do.
Cultures typically are a mixed bag and don't always give reliable results.
PCR is very definitive.


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## snoit83 (Mar 25, 2013)

I thought we ran a test for mycoplasma and it was negative. I am taking him to a specialist tomorrow in Tampa. Hopefully she can figure it out.


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## snoit83 (Mar 25, 2013)

No we have not tried that. There is about 7 different antibiotics on the lab work that this Bactria is sensitive too. I just don't understand why they couldn't give me something else. I just checked the weather and it is going to be 61Â° tomorrow. Awesome and the vet's office called today and to top it off I am not even seeing the specialist!! I'm seeking her resident! Really!?! I'm so frustrated!! I had a bad experience with residents not knowing there stuff and I had to take Frank back and pay all over again to get in with a doctor that could answer my questions and get him on the road to recovery! Dang I'm mad! Should I wait and take him Thursday and get him into the actual doctor?! He is still eating and I picked up a formed turd today. (Sounds weird but it smelled fine) uuurrrgggggg!! What should I do?!


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## tortadise (Mar 25, 2013)

If hes eating drinking fine. You should be ok. If you the customer(concerned at that) dont feel comfortable given the past. Just wait till you can see the Dr. You can always explain that to them. They should understand. What was the results of the swab? Does cleftidizime suit the sensitive realm of the bacteria? I had very good reaults with that antibiotic. However you need to know what bacteria is present for a Dr to properly diagnose. Im not a fan of baytril at all. But thats my experiance. IF given properly can be effective.


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## snoit83 (Mar 25, 2013)

Yes! Ceftazidime is on the list! And both bacteria is sensitive to it! Should I just call my previous vet and say "please prescribe me ceftazidime? I asked for them to prescribe some antibiotic nose drops. They suggested it to the doctor and he came back with this baytril! Ugh... I guess I've called so many times at this point what's one more? I think I am going to wait till Thursday. Thank you for your quick response!


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## tortadise (Mar 25, 2013)

If ceft is on the list of ok to use antibiotics for the bacterium that came back in the results of the swab. I see no issues. However I am not a vet and didnt see the lab report. I do feel a lot of vets over prescribe baytril. But like deadheadvet said. Sometimes they are still waiting for more results. Some antibiotics can be used and show good result. However on regime is completed and if just a small amount of bacteria still thrives in the animal some antibodies can be made and that medicine will have no effect if stopped then started again. Lots that can be overseen in treating certain strains of sickness. RI can also show symptoms similar to other major issues. RI can be resolved also with good hydration, high mineral and vitamin foods or soaks, and slightly warmer temps. They take some time to get rid of. Even on antibiotics and higher temps you can still see the issues slowly subside months later. RI usually are a long dweller and the symptoms finally make themselve shown after bacteria has grown and ailed the animal. You will be fine by waiting. Good luck. Glad hes still eating and acting fine.


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## snoit83 (Mar 26, 2013)

Thank you. He is on a good diet I think. I finely chop green, turnip collard and mustard sometimes swiss chard and coat it in hay, orchard timothy or Bermuda. I use calcium powder 1-2 times a week and they have cuttle bone. They get warm soaks everyday. We ran two cultures the basic and for mycoplasma. I just want him better. I would do just about anything to obtain that! Thank you so much for the information!


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## deadheadvet (Mar 26, 2013)

Mycoplasma is about impossible to culture, the only way to know is PCR which I mentioned.
Ceftazadime should work well. Don't discount a resident's experience. They have done 4 years of vet school, internship, and are working directly under the specialist. Better than some vets just doing some exotics versus exclusive exotcs. Keep your appt. and see how it goes.
Another option is a long ride to Gainesville to U of F. They are probably the best in your area by far.


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## snoit83 (Mar 26, 2013)

Ok, I will order a PCR. I already rescheduled. Today is also the coldest day of the week. I would rather tall directly to the specialist. I respect that residents have done a lot of school and that they are working under the specialist but I would rather have the doctor answering my questions and physically looking at Leonard than them relaying the information. Thank you for the pcr recommendation .


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## snoit83 (Mar 28, 2013)

Headed back from the vet now. We saw the resident and she had renewed my faith! We received amikacin for a nebulizer and ceftazime as injectable MWF. I have high hopes for this! We did not run any other tests :-( I feel a little shame for not spending the extra $290 for a full panel. But we talked about ceftazime and I read about nose drops and nebulizing with amikacin. Wish us luck!!! Poor Leonard is so tired.


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## tortadise (Mar 28, 2013)

Vets even have to start somewhere . Glad everything worked well. Did they show you where and how to inject? Pectoral is best for location for IM(intra muscular) i believe ceft can work(just not as fast) sub-q. Good luck glad your feeling better about the whole scenario.


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