# Coconut Oil?



## StarSapphire22 (Oct 18, 2013)

I read in another thread today about using coconut oil to condition your torts shell and about it's antibacterial properties, etc. When I was at the store today I found it on sale, so I picked some up. But...I'm not sure how to use it, it's solid! Anyone who uses this have any tips?


----------



## LolaMyLove (Oct 18, 2013)

I can't tell you anything about putting it on your tort, but I cook with it and it melts fast. In the summer months it will liquefy in the jar on the shelf and hardens when the kitchen is cool. You can simply run the jar under hot water and that may he enough to melt it.


----------



## AnnV (Oct 18, 2013)

I use it too, for cooking. My sister in FL uses it as skin moisturizer. Probably not a bad thing for torts though not sure how you might go about using it on them.


----------



## StarSapphire22 (Oct 18, 2013)

Yeah, at the store I thought it looked more like a thick moisturizer kindof consistency...but when I got it home I was just like, huh?


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Oct 18, 2013)

Oops. You bought the wrong one. You want the extra virgin (which means unrefined) organic cold pressed one. 

Refined coconut oil is good for frying, and hair, but no longer has the therapeutic (antibacterial, antifungal, antiviral) properties because it has been processed and in the process of processing, they are removed. Organic, extra virgin coconut oil is a little more money, about 2-4 bucks more out here but that's the one you want for you, and for your tortoises. Cold pressed is best, meaning no heat used to get that oil so even less is affected and removed in the refining process.

EVO-CP coconut oil has over 50% lauric acid. Lauric acid in the body is converted into monolaurin, a monoglyceride compound which exhibits antiviral, antimicrobial, antiprotozoal and antifungal properties. It disrupts the lipid membranes in organisms like fungus, bacteria and viruses, thus destroying them. Woohoo for lauric acid. Lauric acid is our friend. Again, when coconut oil is processed, heated up, refined, this vital thing is "poof". 

Also, it does hardened up when it is colder and it melts into oil when it is warmer. You can leave the EVO out on the counter, no problem, the lauric acid also serves as a preservative of sorts. Good stuff both you and your tortoise(s), in my experience.


----------



## StarSapphire22 (Oct 18, 2013)

Dang it! Even on sale it was still 10 bucks.  Wonder if they'll let me exchange it... :/

Thanks for the info! That's really helpful. So, once it liquifies a bit, I can just rub it into his shell like lotion?


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Oct 18, 2013)

Yes, I am sure you can go back and say "Oops, I really need the extra virgin organic cold pressed one." Don't forget the receipt.

Yes, it softens up. Or get a knife and chip a piece, put it on your hands and rub. It will melt with the warmth, and then put on your tortoise shell, or if need be, on the skin (avoid the eyes). You get the benefit too, on your hands. I rub it on my hands and face first, (always first, never reversed) and then I do the tortoise, that way it is not super oily and messy and again, us peeps get the benefit, too. : )


And you can eat the stuff for our good health. So even though 10-15 bucks seems like a lot, it is something that you can use for you too, so that makes it a good value. Prevention. If you want to separate tortoise stuff from people use, just transfer some into a baby food jar for just tort's use.


----------



## StarSapphire22 (Oct 18, 2013)

We'll try and return it tomorrow. Fingers crossed, cause my fiance tossed the receipt. DX 

Bismarck is about 3 hours away, so not really an option just for some coconut oil, ha. 

I'm really excited to try this stuff! How often do you recommend using it on the tort?


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Oct 18, 2013)

No more than once a week on the shell and plastron, very lightly, after most has gone to you when you rub it. Very light if it is a young tortoise, less than a year. You do not want to interfere with its ability to hydrate, although coconut oil is permeable.

When my two little Greeks were acclimating and had runny nose syndrome which I did not know if it came from stress or from actual upper respiratory, I took a cotton swab and put some on their necks, under the beak, at the top back of the head and legs. And yes, I actually added some, about a teaspoon to their warm soaking water, twice a week. I made very sure they did not go under to where the could get it in their eyes. I really hoped that the therapeutic effect would work as a remedy. It couldn't hurt, in my opinion. And all that anti stuff is what is needed to stop things from getting worse at the pass. Oh, and I also soaked some Mazuri in it, once a week. Again, my tortoises were wild caught, totally shy, totally not eating, totally shell shocked from their experience to the USA. I was doing all the remedies I thought would work. Did. Happy.

And I just think it's great when something for tortoises is good for me, and vice versa. Eat more salads, use more coconut oil (EVO-CP, of course), add it to a smoothie, put in on your face, LOL. : ) Keep us updated on your experience / your thoughts as you use it, so every one learns, too. : )


----------



## TortoiseWorld (Oct 19, 2013)

I say nothing beats good nutrition, heat and humidity for a perfect shell appearance. My concern about using coconut oil or any of those cheap magic shell remedies is it will block the tortoises shell and skin pores and interfere with its ability to absorb moisture, warmth and light properly.
The shell parts of a tortoise are porous and need to breath, nothing beats good husbandry, which requires time, a lot of money, and attention.
Unfortunately most people that own tortoises want a short cut in owning a tortoise and the tortoises are the ones who suffer with health problems and a short life span, their owners don't provide the correct foods, heat, humidity for there particular species. I think these tortoise owners subconsciously know what they should be doing but for some reason they don't do it, I guess the word I'm searching for neglect.


----------



## StarSapphire22 (Oct 19, 2013)

With the store bought magic shell conditioner products, I could understand that concern. I don't think it would be an issue with coconut oil, as long as you aren't slathering a ton on there. It IS breathable, and a light coat once in a while isn't replacing good husbandry (for me at least)...just adding to it!


----------



## Elohi (Oct 19, 2013)

That coconut oil isn't going to hurt your tort but the virgin oil is optimal.


I use the refined in my coffee every morning because it has no flavor. I eat a paleo diet so I put fat in/on everything [WINKING FACE]


----------



## StarSapphire22 (Oct 19, 2013)

Yes we're going to try and exchange it today.


----------



## LisaTurtle (Oct 19, 2013)

StarSapphire22- coconut oil solidifies. Use a utensil to get out a little chunk and rub it in between your palms, the heat from your hands will melt it and then you can rub it into your torts shell. I keep mine in the fridge so I pretty much have to use an ice pick to break a piece off


----------



## TortoiseWorld (Oct 19, 2013)

The best thing about this forum is you just might read a post about the history of tortoise keeping and learn about those who seriously studied and researched on the field tortoise species like Charles Darwin, Eric Good, Jerry Fife, Larry Gaugler just to name a few. These educated men (not limited to men) have dedicated part their lives to scientific study and breeding of tortoises. Of course they don't know everything because the tortoise health and husbandry topic is very complex, but we should listen to the logic and follow our heart.

I trust your using this oil on you babies sparingly and with great care but another thing to consider is there are many thousands of people who own tortoises from all over the world who possibly can't read English very well and assume that its okay to rub oil on tortoises. We here who really love tortoises should be aware of the possibility that our posts could be misconstrued. 
Beside water I would not put anything on my tortoises unless it was medicine directed by a educated reptile veterinarian.


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Oct 19, 2013)

Patrick, see your point but respected tortoise keepers have evolved to that. Extra virgin cold pressed organic coconut oil is permeable and has many important properties including, antibacterial, antifungal, antiviral. It comes from the first press of fresh, raw coconut and is not refined or processed, so the therapeutic properties are there. I used it to get two wild caught Greeks better. My grandfather used it often on 4 CDTs, born in 1952. First sign of runny nose and they got a coconut oil massage. Sadly, vets can also be misleading. Not all, of course, but how many tortoises have died from Baytril and its blamed on the whatever ailed it when it was the vet prescribed medicine that did it in? And keepers paid good money, to have their tortoise die. Baytril according to the maker, Bayer Animal Health, is not to be used on tortoises and yet vets nation wide use it. What is that all about? Veterinarians do not all believe, or are even taught in school, about holistic, preventative remedies. There is not profit, or not enough profit, in holistic. As grandpa would say, "If man made it, even German man (he was German), do not trust it. Nature bats first, and last". I believe, my very own opinion, that natural remedies are more useful and effective, based on personal long term experience. Animal bodies are meant to heal themselves, they just need support. That is what, we, as captive care givers and hosts, are obligated to provide. Good care. A leg up on the saddle, if you will. But I do respect your opinion and understand where you are coming from. Also, a lot of our forum members may not all have access to vet driven medicine. Natural remedies are more easily accessible in most of the world. Baytril, not so much. Not supposed to be, since it is not for use on tortoises. If I am to believe the maker. : )


----------



## StarSapphire22 (Oct 19, 2013)

I couldn't exchange it.  

I'll use it up, and make sure to get virgin next time. Or maybe I'll just keep this jar for me and get him his own.


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Oct 19, 2013)

No receipt thing. right? Bummers. Use it for you, no loss. Forever more you will know that you need to get EVO-CP, LOL. All good. It's great for many things people-wise but the best one is the extra virgin organic cold pressed one. That one has all the good things. I can't believe they would not exchange it. Boo on them.


----------



## Madkins007 (Oct 20, 2013)

The thing about the tortoise shell, or any reptile skin for that matter, is that it is waterproof. Nothing really permeates into it or out of it. There are no sweat glands or pores or anything for a substance like that to penetrate past a very superficial level.

Applying an anti-biotic, anti-fungal element to the shell, whether it is coconut oil, aloe vera, Triple Antibiotic Ointment, or Betadine Solution will indeed kill the surface germs, fungi, etc. (depending on what you use), but then again, surface germs cannot get through the skin either.

BeeBee said "Animal bodies are meant to heal themselves, they just need support. That is what, we, as captive care givers and hosts, are obligated to provide." This may be one of the best things I have ever read on this forum! When it comes to reptiles, this means the RIGHT diet (not what is on sale at the store or hyped through some site), and the RIGHT cares and temps (and slightly boosted to help empower their immune system, which is strengthened more by warm sunlight than almost anything else out there).

Holistic and alternative therapies ARE often overlooked or ridiculed by the mainstream, but some of it is the holistic medicine field's won fault- there is almost no internal policing to protect us from lies, exaggerated claims, bad formulations, and so on. 

My favorite example is knee pain, a common ailment especially if you are a bit heavy and aging. Almost everyone touts glucosamine and chondroitin, often in conjunction with fish oils or vitamins, etc. If it is not working for you, it is because you are taking the wrong version (it has to be g. sulfate, or whatever the other version is), or the wrong dose, or whatever.

However, in study after study, including a big new one, most of the holistic versions are proven to be barely more helpful than a placebo, and only in a small group of people. What DOES work is mostly exercise and weight loss (and some NSAIDs or pain relievers- mostly to manage the pain, not effect any actual cure.)

Exercise and weight loss are nearly the definition of good holistic medicine (medicine that looks at and treats the 'whole' person), but that is not the focus you see most of the time. Most practitioners and supporters push supplements and lotions like they are getting paid to do so (and, in point of fact, many are!)

Sorry- getting off topic! As a shell conditioner, I really doubt it has anything more to offer than other things hyped as shell conditioners. I did an article about this topic here if you are interested:https://sites.google.com/site/tortoiselibrary/health-and-medical/shell-conditioners


----------



## Team Gomberg (Oct 20, 2013)

Beebee, I like your natural approach. I may just PM or email you for more info


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Oct 20, 2013)

Thank you Mark. Your input is always very much appreciated. 

I kinda thought that about the skin and shell, since it looks like nothing can bust through, but when I used coconut oil (again, extra virgin, organic, cold pressed) I was hoping all the anti things (anti-viral, anti-bacterial, anti-fungal) that coconut oil has, that these benefits/properties would serve as a barrier of sorts from Wabi-Sabi getting more problems. My head was thinking, if they have something from their far away travels from the Middle East to the USA, and they are so scared/stressed that they are my new impulse buy pet zombie tortoises, I certainly did not need any more icky things that may be here to attack them. We all know the basic thing in nature. If you are weak, you get attacked. I used the oil externally as an armour of sorts. I did not need them to be shiny and blingy. I needed them to not die. I did, twice a week, add some coconut oil to their Mazuri or their Grassland. About 1/8th of a teaspoon. But when they were refusing to eat, hello? they would not get it. The chickens and the worms in the compost pile saw the benefit from all the food I threw away untouched by my little shelled freak outs. I added coconut oil to their water when I did the baby food soaks, in hopes that it would get in to them that way. I had read Yvonne and Maggie explain that they can get some of their spa water in from their little bum. I think what finally got them going was a combination of things and that they were finally feeling safe and that I was probably not going to eat them. We must look weird to them. Big and scary and predator like, if they have been in a desert with not much human contact, like all their lives. Until their strange trip out of their native lands.

I totally agree about holistic, it has to be as a whole, from the most basic, with real food to nourish and exercise to rev things up, on out. Natural remedies need to be tried and tested by each individual since every one has different chemistry or tolerances. No different than western prescribed FDA approved/paid for, expensive, medicine. Until years later, when the commercials from the lawyers show up on the telly and ask you if you had a stroke, or heart attack, or died, then hey, have we got a lawsuit for you to join in! Excuse me? 

If the drugs are speculative with side effects, then I am placing my bets on what nature made and not what man thinks will work because man made things fix one thing and compromise the other, like liver, kidney or heart. Oh wait, we really, really need those. Chinese medicine, thousands of years older and tried and true practical, dare I say evidenced-based by millions of people perhaps. more than Western cmedicine, clearly emphasizes liver and kidney support. Compromising those, results in a downward spiral. You fix one and mess something else that is perhaps even more vital.

I share this in the hopes that others will consider options in helping their tortoises to thrive. And for themselves too, the keep peeps.

Thanks again, Mark. And Heather, yes, of course! : )


----------



## Elohi (Oct 21, 2013)

Bee bee, you speak my language [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]


----------



## Kameo37 (Oct 21, 2013)

The only thing I could see that could go wrong is that coconut oil does have some spf to it. It can be used as a natural low spf sunscreen. I can't remember the exact spf, but I think it's in the 5-7 range. It won't make much of a difference if you are only using it once a week, I wouldn't think. 
PS- I agree, coconut oil is amazing! I use it on everything and in everything I can! Medium chain fatty acids FTW!!


----------



## StarSapphire22 (Oct 21, 2013)

*Re: RE: Coconut Oil?*



Kameo37 said:


> The only thing I could see that could go wrong is that coconut oil does have some spf to it. It can be used as a natural low spf sunscreen. I can't remember the exact spf, but I think it's in the 5-7 range. It won't make much of a difference if you are only using it once a week, I wouldn't think.
> PS- I agree, coconut oil is amazing! I use it on everything and in everything I can! Medium chain fatty acids FTW!!



So for the scientifically-challenged here (raises hand), what you're saying is that it may block UV rays for a short while after use?

I feel like I, the freakishly pale girl allergic to most commercial sunscreens, should not be struggling to grasp this. I need to go back to bed. XD


----------



## Kameo37 (Oct 21, 2013)

That is what I'm saying. I, who os also a member of the pale club, would never depend on coconut oil as a sunscreen bc the spf is so very low. Plus, it is pretty greasy and does grease up your clothes.


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Oct 21, 2013)

elohi, like minds. Fun! 
Oh yeah kameo37, you bring back memories. Ban de Soleil was banned from use in our home. Unless we could pronounce and explain every ingredient. Coppertone was "You drink oranges, not go look like one." I just dated myself. For the youngsters, Coppertone used to turn skin orange. It was comedy. Oh the __'s! 
The stuff we used was coconut oil with a gardenia in it. From Tahiti, in health food stores, called Monoi Tiare. My friends that used chemical sun tan lotions, most ended up with skin problems, including skin cancer. Who knows why. I chose to believe it was from ingredients that were hard to pronounce.
For tortoises, as noted above, it was about the little Greeks not getting any more bacteria or viruses above and beyond what they may have come with. I used a cotton swab to put their little "second skin" on. With the walking and grazing, most rubbed off by the end of the day anyhow. We do these things to support their immune system so they can fight off the scare/stress. And less is more with this oil. Very little goes a long way. Holly-Go-Lightly, LOL.


----------



## TortoiseWorld (Oct 21, 2013)

Someone mentioned that a tortoises shell and skin and of reptiles is not porous, that is ridiculous and not true. Both the carapace and the plastron of a tortoise or turtle is comprised of living tissue. It needs oxygen and exposure to sunlight to keep healthy.

The build-up of soils, waxes, oils, or other preparations, is actually harmful to a tortoise's shell. The keratin and bony layers contain millions of microscopic pores, and things such as the products mentioned actually clog the pores, causing problems.

Yes many vets are ignorant too but the kind of vets we bring our pets too falls on us. If you are looking for a good reptile vet, call around, ask questions and get references. If you live far from a good vet, read lots of books of research on tortoises done by those who are qualified etc.

Coconut oil, it's not worth the risk. I imagine there is now (because of this post) a bunch of ignorant tortoise owners lathering up their tortoises with coconut oils thinking it will make their tortoises healthier and grow nicer shells, this is wrong and dangerous. If a tortoise doesn't get it's proper UV light because of this remedy it could develop bone disease MBD. 

The repeated medicinal use of coconut oil may carry some serious side effects, such as elevated cholesterol and blood lipids (in humans). There are some reports and studies that support certain benefits of coconut oil, but in most cases more research is needed to know for sure, (how much more for a tortoise, that has been thriving on the Earth way before we got here) so in my opinion it's not worth the risk.

If your worried about bacteria and shell rot, try using some good quality sphagnum moss, the acidic properties in it will help. If you keep your tortoises and their enclosure clean, a healthy diet, proper temps, and humidity levels for each species, you will be assisting your tortoise and supporting your tortoise to thrive.
Those who have commented on this post have good intentions and have stated they apply the oil sparingly but I think we should stick to the basics. Lastly just because something is natural does not make it harmless. Itâ€™s one of the biggest poison myths of all time: â€˜all-naturalâ€™ or â€˜organicâ€™ substances are safer than their man-made or â€˜chemicalâ€™ counterparts. However, the fact is that some of the most toxic substances known to man come straight from mother earth (or her creatures). Coconut maybe harmless to humans or not but not enough research has been done using it as a topical treatment on a tortoise and what about species differentiation, and age, breeding. There is more questions than answers, so again it's not worth the risk.


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Oct 21, 2013)

Thanks Patrick.
Again, there is a difference - I cannot stress this enough - between extra virgin, organic, cold pressed (EVO-CP) coconut oil and refined coconut oil. A huge difference. Like anything refined and processed (white bread, white rice, white sugar), refined coconut oil is worthless for remedy. It's gunk, it's junk. It's for frying and for hair conditioner. The elevated cholesterol and lipids that you refer to is the refined coconut oil. Before Westerners went to the islands with their goodies, people ate freshly pressed coconut oil and were skinny for centuries, their skin was lovely, hair healthy. It is the refining and the processing and the modification that has destroyed real food. 

When refined, all of the benefits of the vital lauric acid, gone. Lauric acid is what helps make CO antibacterial, antiviral, antifungal. Like a tortoises diet -and I do give mine spinach on occasion - if coconut oil is an all day, every day thing for months on end, yes, that is much too much. Like keepers of old giving iceberg lettuce, all day every day for years on end. NO, NO, and NO-NO-NO. Remedies are done to give a tortoise a leg up on healing thyself which animals are more than able to do, with a little help up.

Now, my understanding of the tortoises shell is that it is like my fingernail. It breathes not. The application to the shell and skin was to keep my tortoises from getting worse. Weak animals attract a lot of bad things. Opportunistic as bad things are, be they bacteria, virus, fungus, parasites. You have the good, you have the bad. I wanted more good than bad. I wanted kidneys stronger. Liver functioning. I wanted these guys out of zombie state from being plucked from the desert in the middle east, thrown in a hot truck, probably not fed again until they were at the PetSmart distribution center, or even the store. Before that, they probably arrived to that Egyptian family business that has brokered chelonians from the ME deserts for generations, taken to Jordan for their paper work out, in a truck, in a plane, up in the sky when they need earth under their feet, to the new USA brokers ... to a warehouse, to a store, to me. No wonder many of these little guys are stunned into not eating. Holistic remedies are kinder. Baytril is not even suppose to be used by tortoises according to the maker in a letter to me. So do I want a medicine that can shock a weak animal further? or can I be patient and diligent, with a combination of remedies that are nature made and not man designed but guinea pigged/tried out on my pets and maybe it will work, or may be not. And a few hundred dollars later your pet dies but it is never blamed on the medicine, always on the ailment. Not me. Just saying. 
My grandfather had dogs that lived to be 18 to 20 years old. Tortoises that live today, born in 1952. He was 107 when he finally went to a bigger farm with more animals. He, a German, said that if man made it, even German man, do not fully trust it. Nature bats first, and last.
Lastly, every one does the best they can with the knowledge that comes their way. Knowledge is power. For me personally, medicine is too money driven to trust. Doctors make no money by suggesting holistic remedies. Pharma however, big profits. Bigger side effects. And even death. I want nature up to bat first.


----------



## TortoiseWorld (Oct 21, 2013)

You should never put any thing on the shell: it is living tissue, and oils and lotions can block the pores and attract dirt. If the shell is dirty, a soft toothbrush and water can be used to gently clean it off.


----------



## Elohi (Oct 22, 2013)

> The repeated medicinal use of coconut oil may carry some serious side effects, such as elevated cholesterol and blood lipids (in humans). There are some reports and studies that support certain benefits of coconut oil, but in most cases more research is needed to know for sure, (how much more for a tortoise, that has been thriving on the Earth way before we got here) so in my opinion it's not worth the risk.



This is actually extremely untrue. While coconut oil is high is saturated fat, it does not increase cholesterol or lipids. A low fat diet, heavy in processed foods causes elevated cholesterol. (I'm referring to BAD cholesterol here) cholesterol itself is EXTREMELY important to the brain and is required for the production of every hormone in the human body. The body makes cholesterol whether you ingest it or not, inflammation within the body (arteries specifically in this case) and elevated bad cholesterol (which is actually sticking to artery walls in an effort to heal inflammation) is actually unhealthy and can lead to illness and ultimately a premature death. 

I eat a high fat diet. (Paleo). I've eaten this way for well over a year. My labs that I just got the results of yesterday, are perfect. I get a copy of them on Friday. A mason jar of coconut oil lasts me two weeks. I eat 6 eggs most days. I eat a lot of meats, I eat a ton of grass fed butter in my cooked foods. 
Thousands of people everyday are discovering the truth about fat and cholesterol and how important healthy fats are to our health and longevity. 
I am thin. I lost 21 lbs within 3 months of changing the way I eat. (lots of veggies and nuts as well as the above mentioned) I've veered totally off topic...so back to the point.

Coconut is not unsafe if used in minute amounts on an occasional basis. It should be seen as a healing ointment not a primping tool for a shiny shell. I'm not advocating for the use of coconut oil except as a healing ointment for animals. Should you slather it all over your tortoise? Probably not the best idea. This oil is in a league of its own and shouldn't be compared to other oils or ointments.
Anyyyyyhoooo SMILE!
A little coconut oil on an abrasion, a bite, or a wound is a good thing, not a detriment to the critters health.


----------



## StarSapphire22 (Oct 23, 2013)

Well Littlefoot just got here this morning, and I may already have a use for coconut oil... :/

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/showthread.php?tid=81715


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Oct 23, 2013)

Elohi, cutest picture ever! : )


StarSapphire22, your Littlefoot is darling. Just remember a little bit goes a long way. Just be sure it is the extra virgin, organic, cold pressed on so that lauric acid can do some good.


----------



## Yvonne G (Oct 23, 2013)

Hip, hip, hooray!!! Even though this thread is NOT in the debatable topics section, this has been a great debate, with both sides being courteous and informative. For people like me, who know nothing about coconut oil, I have learned a great deal from both sides, and I am now able to make an informed decision.

Thank you all for being so courteous to each other and showing us all that it is quite ok to have different opinions and it isn't necessary to get into a fight about it.

YIPPEE!!!!


----------



## peasinapod (Oct 23, 2013)

It was really interesting reading this post, but I couldn't help to wonder about one thing. What do you do about oil getting into small nooks of the shell? I know that my tortoise had some spots where the shell made some small "flaps" of old tissue, due to old injuries. I'd be scared of oil getting in there and becoming rancid.


----------



## Kameo37 (Oct 23, 2013)

Yvonne, you have got to try it! For yourself! It's wonderful stuff! If you google "uses for coconut oil" you'll be astounded. Although, I admit, I have never seen "apply to your tortoise's shell" on any of those lists...


----------



## Elohi (Oct 23, 2013)

Here is a little chart to breaks down the most common oils. There is more details available but this is the simple version to show stability. 
HTH




Oh and to clarify, this is technically for cooking, not animal application LOL. just as a reference


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Oct 23, 2013)

peasinapod, cotton swabs. And extra virgin, organic, cold pressed coconut oil has lauric acid and so it will not become rancid. As a matter of fact, you can leave it on your counter, no worries. The EVO-CP coconut oil has preservative properties as well. Refined coconut oil, like white bread, white sugar, white rice, while "edible" is not real food any more. It has been altered. Man has messed around with it for profit. EVO-CP for me! Antibacterial, antiviral, antifungal ... what is not to love? 

Important to note: The anti-coconut oil propaganda in the 70's and 80's was over the saturated fats in refined coconut oil by the makers of other oils, for one. For two, it was market manipulation. Know this, once refined, the hydrogenation process messes vegetable and seed oils because hydrogen atoms are added in the heating process (see why we say COLD PRESSED). This hydrogenated oil is only good for long shelf life and profit, but it can make YOU have a short shelf life, LOL. Avoid hydrogenated oils like they are poison. Because they are. On the other hand, hydrogenated coconut oil can replace motor oil but that is another thread, or maybe another forum! : )


I forgot to say. Saturated fats aka and better known as trans fats.


----------



## peasinapod (Oct 23, 2013)

*AW: Coconut Oil?*

Good to know! Thank you.


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Oct 24, 2013)

Cancel my "forgot to say" above. I forgot to finish that whole thought. Darn phone calls. Grrrrr.

Saturated fats from cold pressed coconut oil are stable and have zero trans fat. It is also a medium chain fatty acid which is quickly absorbed, metabolized and converted into energy. It helps our immune system and all the other anti things noted above.

This is an interesting read from an English cardiologist ...

Four decades of medical wisdom that cutting down on saturated fats reduces our risk of heart disease may be wrong, a top cardiologist has said. Fatty foods that have not been processed â€“ such as butter, cheese, eggs and yoghurt â€“ can even be good for the heart, and repeated advice that we should cut our fat intake may have actually increased risks of heart disease, said Dr Aseem Malhotra.


Writing in the British Medical Journal, he argues that saturated fats have been â€œdemonisedâ€ since a major study in 1970 linked increased levels of heart disease with high cholesterol and high saturated fat intake.

The NHS currently recommends that the average man should eat no more than 30g of saturated fat a day and women no more than 20g. However, Dr Malhotra, a specialist at Croydon University Hospital, said that cutting sugar out of our diets should be a far greater priority.

He told The Independent: â€œFrom the analysis of the independent evidence that I have done, saturated fat from non-processed food is not harmful and probably beneficial. Butter, cheese, yoghurt and eggs are generally healthy and not detrimental. The food industry has profited from the low-fat mantra for decades because foods that are marketed as low-fat are often loaded with sugar. We are now learning that added sugar in food is driving the obesity epidemic and the rise in diabetes and cardiovascular disease.â€

A recent study indicated that 75 per cent of acute heart attack patients have normal cholesterol concentrations, suggesting that cholesterol levels are not the real problem, Dr Malhotra argued.

He also pointed to figures suggesting the amount of fat consumed in the US has gone down in the past 30 years while obesity rates have risen.

Bad diet advice has also led to millions of patients being prescribed statins to control their blood pressure, he argues, when simply adopting a Mediterranean diet might be more effective.

However, Professor Peter Weissberg, medical director at the British Heart Foundation, said: â€œStudies on the link between diet and disease frequently produce conflicting results because, unlike drug trials, itâ€™s very difficult to undertake a properly controlled, randomised study. However, people with highest cholesterol levels are at highest risk of a heart attack.


----------



## TortoiseWorld (Oct 24, 2013)

Elohi said:


> > This is actually extremely untrue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Oct 24, 2013)

We are, first off, primarily discussing *EXTRA VIRGIN ORGANIC COLD PRESSED COCONUT OIL. *This is vital, this important, this is key. 
That is the kind to use for remedy. Not food, every day. For remedy.

For your consideration. I had two very bad state Greek tortoises that I impulsively bought over a year and a half ago. They were non responsive, quiet, not eating. I did a lot of baby food soaks, as expert keepers here on TFO suggested. As a matter of fact, this is how I found TFO, researching for the care of my two new charges. While our family has 4 CDTs that were born in 1952, grandpa raised them (with natural remedies), I was not all that hands on experienced. These Greeks were it. Lo and behold, Greeks stress easily and get the RNS, runny nose syndrome. Yes, they were all that from the trip from Jordan to Egypt to PetSmart to me.

Besides soaks, raised temps, every 3rd day, I gave them a remedy that was a distilled water soak, 1 teaspoon of warmed extra virgin organic cold pressed coconut oil mixed in and 5 drops of raw organic apple cider vinegar. That was their soak. I supervised to be sure that they did not go under. They did not need this in eye or ears. Within 5 days, let's say a week, the runny noses were gone. Now I just needed them to eat. I continued this remedy once a week, after first doing it 3 days straight. They finally ate, 6 weeks into this game, and are doing great says their vet check up.

The vet suggested Baytril. I said let me think about it. Researched. Read a German author/keeper say that Hermanns (testudo right?) tortoises have been affected, gout and kidney failure. Decided, hell no. Add salt to the wounds, nope. These babies need support, not possible deadly side effects or long term damage. Ain't risking it.. 

This week, I have a Texas (possibly with CDT mix) tortoise, a recent adoption, with a runny nose that started again around Saturday. Fixed this before, when it first came to me 2 months ago. Our weather has been way up hot and then down. Wonky weather the last few weeks. Older fellow, this guy. I have to be very careful with him since he is new to me and also because the vet thinks he is about 40-50 years plus. For him, I mixed 1 tablespoon of distilled water together with a tiny dab of extra virgin cold organic pressed coconut oil and 5 drops of raw organic non pasteurized apple cider vinegar (the kind that looks foggy, that's the mother, the good bacteria). I did his Mazuri and Grassland soak with this. Three days later, no nasal drip. 

Remedies are to remediate. 

Thanks for the links Patrick. I read them. I understand your concerns but again, like the Web MD site says, it is the LAURIC ACID that helps. Additionally, they say, "because they come from coconuts, they may contain beneficial plant chemicals that have yet to be discovered," says Mozaffarian, researcher and co-director of the cardiovascular epidemiology program at Harvard.

None of the sites address *extra virgin organic cold pressed coconut oil.* They are talking apples, we are suggesting oranges. The howstuffworks is right, I am very aware of farm politics and manipulations, coconut oil was maligned by the soybean commodities people, they are market manipulators extraordinaire. Soybeans are USA grown, coconuts, not so much. There is more profit in soybean oils so you market the wonders of soybeans and you destroy the coconut oil market. Happens all the time, with so many things. Commodities supply and demand are based on more profit, not better health. I am looking at you banksters, grrr.

Like that site says: "Coconut oil even has its own conspiracy theory -- if coconut oil is so great, why haven't we heard more about it? Some coconut-oil devotees blame U.S. agribusiness. According to the conspiracy theory, coconut oil isn't a domestic crop -- but soybeans are. The darker side of this idea is that partially hydrogenated soybean oil and its now-infamous trans fats were touted as a healthy alternative." 

EXTRA VIRGIN ORGANIC COLD PRESSED COCONUT OIL is UNREFINED 
*** Avoid refined coconut oil period! It is tasteless and odor less because it has been refined. It is best used for soaps or cosmetic preparations! ***

Extra-virgin coconut oils are made from the first pressing of fresh, raw coconut without the addition of any chemicals. 
Centrifuged oil is less likely to be exposed to much heat in the extraction process, so it will taste mild and delicate.


About rancidity: Coconut oil that has been kept at room temperature for a year has been tested for rancidity, and showed no evidence of it. 

"In 1988, N.W. Istfan of Harvard University Medical School's Nutrition Coordinating Center, vindicated coconut oil. Dr. Istfan reported: "For the U.S. consumer, the use of coconut oil does not increase the role of heart disease." Other researchers demonstrated that coconut oil reduces the risk of atherosclerosis, heart disease, cancer, and other degenerative conditions. It helps prevent bacterial, viral, and fungal infections, as a result of its antimicrobial component, lauric acid, which is found solely in coconut oil and in breast milk. Coconut oil is rich in MCTs, which provide an immediate source of fuel and energy, and enable the human body to metabolize fat efficiently. This feature helps dieters, athletes, individuals who have difficulty digesting fat, and those with impaired immune systems. Unlike some saturated fats, coconut oil does not raise cholesterol."

This matches what was just published by the British Medical Journal last week.

*EXTRA VIRGIN ORGANIC COLD PRESSED * all y'all. 
Not the refined one but the unrefined one with all the natural goodies and benefits.


----------



## Elohi (Oct 25, 2013)

Hey Bee bee, I listened to a podcast by Beverly Meyer a while back that was very interesting. She was interviewing a Dr whom stated that refined oil is actually still significantly more beneficial than most other oils and all the goodies weren't lost, while some obviously were reduced. And that their studies for coconut oil benefits was actually done using the refined. It's really a phenomenal oil unless it's in the liquid form or hydrogenated. The liquid obviously has been heavily processed and contains other oils to keep it from solidifying as it normally would at room temps. I'll see if I can find the podcast.


Found it!

http://www.ondietandhealth.com/podcast/coconut-for-health-with-dr-bruce-fife/


----------



## apromann4 (Oct 25, 2013)

Thanks beebee, very helpful info's, i' l share this to our local group in or country , very very good study n research


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Oct 25, 2013)

Thanks Elohi, so much. I agree, that even refined it is still a wonderful saturated fat because it is a stable oil and still has the medium chain triglycerides, also known as medium chain fatty acids. Coconut oil is the richest source for these MCTs aka MCFAs. Medium versus long chain is what is best for our health. Most common vegetable and seed oil have the long chain. Without going into detail, long chain triglycerides are hard on the body, hard to break down, stored as fat, hard on the liver and the pancreas (diabetes rise?) Medium chain triglycerides like what is in coconut oil are used in baby foods and even in hospitals for tube feeding. 

Important to note: Extra virgin coconut oil should not ever be heated up. Only in salads, smoothies, only used cold, never heated.

Here is what happened on this thread. We were talking a remedy for tortoises. Starsapphire22 bought the regular coconut oil and I said, oops, not that one. Because as good as it is for us, for her/our tortoises we need the best one. That is the one with all the remedy qualities in it. So hence, the extra virgin organic, cold pressed suggestion. For us, yes. For little shelled friends, the close to purest form only. 

apromann4, your country is one of the very key sources of this healthful oil! It is so abundant that your country is looking into other things that it can market with it, like automobile oil. What you want is the coconut oil done by the old methods, if you can. That is the purest form, straight from the coconut. The older generation would extract the oil by grating the fresh coconut, extracting the coconut milk, and then letting the coconut milk stand in a covered container for about 24 hours. After about 24 hours, the oil naturally separates from the water producing a crystal clear oil that retains the full scent and taste of coconuts. 

I have also soaked my runny nose tortoises in coconut water straight from the coconut. But oy vey, that is simply another thread.


Oh, I see what I did. 

In my post above I wrote "not food everyday" but I should have been much clearer that I meant *not food for our tortoises every day*. People, us, it's okay. Tortoises, of course not. I myself, eat it everyday in my smoothie or salad. Oopsee. Sorry for the confusion of that statement.


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Oct 26, 2013)

Elohi said:


> http://www.ondietandhealth.com/podcast/coconut-for-health-with-dr-bruce-fife/



Thanks Elohi! Love Dr. Bruce Fife, yes! I always wondered if he was related to the two highly respected Fife brothers (Jerry and Richard) of chelonian fame. The hot and humid way of raising tortoises evolved with Jerry and his wife and their common sense about it all! Woo hoo Fifes, one and all! : )


----------



## Keith D. (Jul 15, 2015)

BeeBee*BeeLeaves said:


> Oops. You bought the wrong one. You want the extra virgin (which means unrefined) organic cold pressed one.
> 
> Refined coconut oil is good for frying, and hair, but no longer has the therapeutic (antibacterial, antifungal, antiviral) properties because it has been processed and in the process of processing, they are removed. Organic, extra virgin coconut oil is a little more money, about 2-4 bucks more out here but that's the one you want for you, and for your tortoises. Cold pressed is best, meaning no heat used to get that oil so even less is affected and removed in the refining process.
> 
> ...


You should look for organic extra virgin unrefined coconut oil, that is what I use for my dogs and for the humans lol. It will say that exactly on the label, I find mine at my local Walmart for around $12.


----------



## Alaskamike (Oct 14, 2015)

This is a good discussion. Lots of opposing views with explanation on the " whys". 

If anyone is very interested , the long - long thread in the debatable section under Coconut Oil by @glitch is worth a read. Many details and chemical breakdown discussion there. 

For me , after a great deal of study and thought , it became a small part of my routine. 1x / week. An application. 

I do not put it on skin , as the UV protection , while small, they don't need it. 

Each of us must take the best knowledge we can find and decide.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad (Dec 14, 2015)

Alaskamike said:


> This is a good discussion. Lots of opposing views with explanation on the " whys".
> 
> If anyone is very interested , the long - long thread in the debatable section under Coconut Oil by @glitch is worth a read. Many details and chemical breakdown discussion there.
> 
> ...


Just read this one as well, this seems a very popular topic. 
I will read any others and the BIG one, before I make a decision, but it's fascinating reading.


----------



## Prairie Mom (Dec 14, 2015)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Just read this one as well, this seems a very popular topic.
> I will read any others and the BIG one, before I make a decision, but it's fascinating reading.


Hi Adam I started using it lightly this summer. My sulcata was drying out so badly in my windy climate, even though she sleeps in a humid closed chamber at night and gets soaks every single day. I finally started applying coconut oil and giving her occasional toothbrush scrubs with the oil during her soaks and it made a HUGE difference. I'm uncertain whether I agree with all the claims on every thread, and don't know if it is something every keeper needs to use, but it certainly helps outdoor torts in my type of climate.


----------



## Tidgy's Dad (Dec 14, 2015)

Prairie Mom said:


> Hi Adam I started using it lightly this summer. My sulcata was drying out so badly in my windy climate, even though she sleeps in a humid closed chamber at night and gets soaks every single day. I finally started applying coconut oil and giving her occasional toothbrush scrubs with the oil during her soaks and it made a HUGE difference. I'm uncertain whether I agree with all the claims on every thread, and don't know if it is something every keeper needs to use, but it certainly helps outdoor torts in my type of climate.


Thanks for that, Chrissy! 
Tidgy's carapace is currently fine, but I will certainly consider using it if she ever starts to show signs of desiccation. 
I must read more, but I am tempted!


----------



## Twan777 (Dec 15, 2015)

From my understanding the tortoise shell will eventually replenish itself. The shell will have a natural shine from the foods you feed them and to my understanding the shell actually has to breath. So with that being said putting any type of oil on the shell would interfere with the breathing process of the shell which I would imagine would cause more complication....correct me if I'm wrong....


----------



## mike taylor (Dec 15, 2015)

I don't see why its needed . No where in nature do tortoise gods oil tortoises . Make good microclimates people . Get your tortoises outside .


----------



## Prairie Mom (Dec 15, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> I don't see why its needed . No where in nature do tortoise gods oil tortoises . Make good microclimates people . Get your tortoises outside .


This sweeping statement doesn't work for me. I posted exactly a situation where I finally decided to give it a go and it DID benefit my tortoise. I don't think it's necessary for everyone, might have some additional benefits, some may be exaggerated ---(I honestly don't know), BUT it can be a useful tool for some tortoise keepers like myself.

Now, I'm off to steal your son's Christmas present!


----------



## mike taylor (Dec 15, 2015)

He is a fighter ! I get what you are saying . But its like medicine you trade one thing for another . Good sun shine and a water hole works for me .


----------



## glendalk (Jul 8, 2016)

StarSapphire22 said:


> I couldn't exchange it.
> 
> I'll use it up, and make sure to get virgin next time. Or maybe I'll just keep this jar for me and get him his own.


My daughter has very dry skin and uses it on her legs. It has worked very well for her!


----------



## Eryl Rayner (Nov 5, 2016)

Brilliant, just what I wanted to know aswell. I use coconut oil (the right kind) so to think I can use it on Henrietta as well is great ! Mind you my baby is about 68 apparently, so starting to use oil at this age, not sure but think I'll try it. She goes into hibernation today or tomorrow.


----------



## Eryl Rayner (Nov 5, 2016)

oh dear, just did it. Used it for my hands, face then tortoise, still a bit oily so put it on arms, legs, then remembered what you said about using on self first then tortoise - not other way round, perhaps I'd better wash it off, hahaha !


----------

