# Best UVB bulb for my baby sulcata



## abbs

What is the BESTT uvb light bulb to use for my baby sulcata tortoise? I think this is why wont she eat? Im trying everything i can to help her. her shell seems to be getting softer, shes only a month old.


----------



## chadk

Have you read this:
http://www.sulcata-station.org/pdf/hatchfail.pdf


----------



## dragnikla

abbs said:


> What is the BESTT uvb light bulb to use for my baby sulcata tortoise? I think this is why wont she eat? Im trying everything i can to help her. her shell seems to be getting softer, shes only a month old.



Alot of people have suggested getting a t-rex active heat uv bulb or a mega ray mercury vapor bulb, and the third runner up would be the power sun mercury vapor bulb (it doesn't provide as much heat). True if the tort isn't warm enough they wont eat. But there are other factors. If you could list the type and size of your enclosure, diet offered, temperatures of enclosure and basking spot, and any other lights that you have in the enclosure that may help us help you. 

If shes only a month old the shell may still be soft from hatching. Usually they absorb nutrients from the egg they were in, but it seems like yours may have been taken out before she could absorb most of it. Does she eat anything at all? Try soaking her in water mixed with baby food squash or sweet potatoes, or pumpkin puree, and see if she will drink any of that mixture.

Does she show any other signs of distress? Are her eyes clear? Does she make any raspy sounds when she breathes? What substrate are you using, and are you keeping it moist? If heat is your issue than the mercury vapor bulbs are your best bet especially since this is a baby. The bulbs combine heat, light, and uvb rays. Make sure you use a dome lamp fixture for them otherwise they can overheat. regular uvb lights do not provide heat, so if you don't need the heat reptisun 10 would be good, but it is only effective up to 18" away so be aware of that for your placement.It also doesn't provide as much uvb as the mvb bulbs..

are you adding calcium with d3 to her diet, or providing some powdered calcium in the enclosure that she can eat when she needs it? Is she the only tortoise in this enclosure, if not you have to be careful of bullying. Try to give us some details so we can better assist you, it may be the uvb light, it may not be. If she gets full sun every day for at least 20 minutes, then she shouldn't need a uvb light. 

Babies spend most of their time underground anyway, so make sure she has a moist warm substrate that she can burrow in. Also what is the humidity level in the enclosure you want to strive for upwards of 70, 90 might help if its where she sleeps. I hope this helps, and hopefully the more seasoned forum members will correct anything wrong that i've told you.


----------



## Maggie Cummings

Just from what I've read it sounds like she's not warm enough. Her inner metabolism needs to be 85 degrees or better in order for her to metabolize her food. If she's not warm enough she just won't eat...so you need to get a heat lamp on her. Then watch her and make sure she is moving in and out of the light to regulate her body temp. Also soak her often so she doesn't get dehydrated.


----------



## Tom

Maggies' right. What are your temps? Warm side, cool side, basking spot, night?


----------



## abbs

dragnikla said:


> abbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the BESTT uvb light bulb to use for my baby sulcata tortoise? I think this is why wont she eat? Im trying everything i can to help her. her shell seems to be getting softer, shes only a month old.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alot of people have suggested getting a t-rex active heat uv bulb or a mega ray mercury vapor bulb, and the third runner up would be the power sun mercury vapor bulb (it doesn't provide as much heat). True if the tort isn't warm enough they wont eat. But there are other factors. If you could list the type and size of your enclosure, diet offered, temperatures of enclosure and basking spot, and any other lights that you have in the enclosure that may help us help you.
> 
> If shes only a month old the shell may still be soft from hatching. Usually they absorb nutrients from the egg they were in, but it seems like yours may have been taken out before she could absorb most of it. Does she eat anything at all? Try soaking her in water mixed with baby food squash or sweet potatoes, or pumpkin puree, and see if she will drink any of that mixture.
> 
> Does she show any other signs of distress? Are her eyes clear? Does she make any raspy sounds when she breathes? What substrate are you using, and are you keeping it moist? If heat is your issue than the mercury vapor bulbs are your best bet especially since this is a baby. The bulbs combine heat, light, and uvb rays. Make sure you use a dome lamp fixture for them otherwise they can overheat. regular uvb lights do not provide heat, so if you don't need the heat reptisun 10 would be good, but it is only effective up to 18" away so be aware of that for your placement.It also doesn't provide as much uvb as the mvb bulbs..
> 
> are you adding calcium with d3 to her diet, or providing some powdered calcium in the enclosure that she can eat when she needs it? Is she the only tortoise in this enclosure, if not you have to be careful of bullying. Try to give us some details so we can better assist you, it may be the uvb light, it may not be. If she gets full sun every day for at least 20 minutes, then she shouldn't need a uvb light.
> 
> Babies spend most of their time underground anyway, so make sure she has a moist warm substrate that she can burrow in. Also what is the humidity level in the enclosure you want to strive for upwards of 70, 90 might help if its where she sleeps. I hope this helps, and hopefully the more seasoned forum members will correct anything wrong that i've told you.
Click to expand...


Thanks so much for the help.
Im using carefresh bedding with newspapers under it. 

I have a 100watt tight beam sun glo basking lamp, a reptisun 10.0uvb desert light. and another regular basking lamp at the other end of her table. The temperature seems to be about 95 degrees now that i changed it. i cant seem to get it in the 80-90 range=/

I keep 3 hiding places for her to get to. 2 small cardboard boxs and a wooden log. The enclosure i bult for her is about 26X50cm. and soon im gonna build her a 2nd level with two ramps.

She has a saucer provided for her with water at all times. There are rocks next to it so she has an easy entrance and exit. 

I feed her everymorning before i go to school, after i soak her in warm water. I give her about 1/4 a cup of grass and clovers i have outside. (no chemicals on them) i occasanially spray them with calcium supplements. and sometimes giver her a dandelion leaf.


----------



## Tom

Hi abbs. You need to start over from scratch. Its not hard and not very expensive. Little ones can be quite delicate and care must be taken to help them out. Once they reach a year or so they are almost indestructible. 26x50cm is way too small, even for a hatchling. The main reason is, as you are seeing, you can't maintain a proper heat gradient. You need to get a large plastic tub of some sort. Here in the US we call them sweater boxes or storage boxes. They are cheap and easy to find. The bigger the better but at least 60x90cm. This will allow you to set up a warm side (near the light, 80-90), a cool side (away from the light, 70-75), and a basking SPOT (directly under the hottest part of the light, around 100). You only need one small light on a 12-14 hour timer to do this. You get your temps right by adjusting the light higher or lower. I like to use a flat rock directly under the heat lamp for basking. If you are having appetite troubles, you may also need some night heat. For this you can use a cheap blue/red/black bulb or a Ceramic Heating Element. I'd place this either over the middle of the enclosure to warm the whole thing a bit or near whatever hide he sleeps in at night. Normally temps in the low 70's are fine for night, but in your case, I'd shoot for 80 for a while.

If you can get him outside for 20-30 minutes of direct sunshine a few times a week, you can forego all the expensive UVB and MVB lights. This will depend on the climate you live in. If the weather is cold there and the tort will be inside for weeks or months at a time you will NEED a MVB. These come as small as 100watts and you will need a relatively large enclosure to use this and not just over heat the whole thing.

On to bedding. There is a lot of debate and mis-information on this topic. Care fresh is not recommended for several reasons. It is too dry, no humidity. It is hard for a baby to walk on and Maggie has seen them get splayed leg syndrome from improper bedding. I have seen several animals die from impaction from eating this bedding. Instead you ought to use some sort of natural type bedding. Cypress mulch is great if you can get it where you are. If not, you can use one or a combination of the following: Orchid bark, coco coir (sometimes sold as "Bed-a-beast" or a few other names), plain soil (no additives like fertilizers, pesticides, water retainers, etc...). Some people like to mix in some sand too, but I don't like it. I just use regular old dirt for my outdoor enclosures and it works great too.

Humidity: Babies in the wild hide most of the time. The places they hide tend to be small and humid. Using the correct substrate will allow you to increase the overall humidity in the enclosure. This will help their shell to grow smooth, instead of pyramided. If you live in a dry, warm area, make it VERY humid in there. If you live in a cold clammy place, you might need to keep it a bit less humid. Give them some humid areas to hide too. There are a lot of threads on this forum for very creative ways to do this. Here's a simple one:

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-12542.html?highlight=humid+hide+box

Here's an example of a simple sulcata set-up. The container can be anything. I used a big metal stock tank. All the elements are there though.

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-13375.html?highlight=basic

We all want to see your tortoise grow up healthy and happy, so please hit us with all your questions and keep us posted.


----------



## dragnikla

abbs said:


> dragnikla said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the BESTT uvb light bulb to use for my baby sulcata tortoise? I think this is why wont she eat? Im trying everything i can to help her. her shell seems to be getting softer, shes only a month old.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks so much for the help.
> Im using carefresh bedding with newspapers under it.
> 
> I have a 100watt tight beam sun glo basking lamp, a reptisun 10.0uvb desert light. and another regular basking lamp at the other end of her table. The temperature seems to be about 95 degrees now that i changed it. i cant seem to get it in the 80-90 range=/
> 
> I keep 3 hiding places for her to get to. 2 small cardboard boxs and a wooden log. The enclosure i bult for her is about 26X50cm. and soon im gonna build her a 2nd level with two ramps.
> 
> She has a saucer provided for her with water at all times. There are rocks next to it so she has an easy entrance and exit.
> 
> I feed her everymorning before i go to school, after i soak her in warm water. I give her about 1/4 a cup of grass and clovers i have outside. (no chemicals on them) i occasanially spray them with calcium supplements. and sometimes giver her a dandelion leaf.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would change the carefresh immediately. It is designed for "small pets" by that they mean hampsters, and guinea pigs. Yes it has been sanitized and is free from pine and cedar which is good, but it is also super absorbent meaning it sucks up all the moisture and dries it out. Easy cleanup maybe but not great for your tort. You need something that will stay moist. In the wild torts urinate in their burrow to add humidity, if this bedding sucks it all away then they are just baking in dustfree saw dust. Also I don't know if it is safe to eat, it could get impacted in her system.
> 
> A better substrate would be cypress mulch, eco earth (or any type of fine coconut fiber, sometimes called bed a beast), organic topsoil, Orchard bark (small pieces because she may still try to chew it). Just something that you can water. If you increase the humidity, she should become more active, and be more inclined to eat. The heat is for digestion, but if she isn't eating anything than that wont help.
> 
> Sometimes the young ones dont like grass and weeds, try organic springmix from the store (it is salad greens already prepackaged), or watercress, or pureed pumkin just to get her eating. You can sprinkle some of the grass on top, but give her something that she really likes. What is the humidity level in the enclosure? make sure the clovers are actually clovers and not a semi-poisonous plant that looks like clovers, there is a thread on here about that. I believe it is called oxalis (which is high in oxalic acid therefore inhibiting the uptake of calcium) If that is the case that could lead to the softening shell even though you are occasionally dusting with calcium.
> 
> You say you feed her in the morning, and when you get back i'm assuming the food is still there. What time do you leave in the morning? Do you feed her by hand? It can be time consuming but try to feed her by hand and see how she does. WHat she likes and doesn't if she is chewing normaly or struggling. On the weekend see if you can watch her to determine when she actually wanders towards the food dish, then throw the good stuff out.
> 
> 95 degrees should be plenty warm, just try to get the humidity up too. The dandelion leaves are good, but you are using those as a treat, and because she is a baby and not eating I would give her more treats, cut back on the grass. She could just be a picky eater. Keep an eye on her, if anything else worsens, or she starts sitting in her water bowl and not moving make sure you see your vet. It can be expensive especially if nothing really is wrong, but its better to be safe than sorry.
> 
> You already have the reptisun 10 so that is your uvb. I don't think that is why she isn't eating and the shell is getting soft. Does she go outside every day? Is it warm enough to take her outside? Also she needs to be able to cool down so i would keep the basking spot to one side, and let the other end of the enclosure be the cool side instead of having two basking spots at either end. It would help if we could get a picture of your enclosure, and of the tort. How old was she when you got her, and how long has she not been eating? Also your enclosure is approximately 10"x 22" which is too small for both of your basking lights. She is baking in there with the dry substrate and hot lights. Does your thermometer also read humidity? Try to get it up at least to 80. With the size of your enclosure just having a moist substrate should do it, later you can add plants and more space that will help.
> 
> Yeah okay so I should read the whole thread before I reply. Just do everything Tom said and you should be good.
Click to expand...


----------



## abbs

Tom said:


> Hi abbs. You need to start over from scratch. Its not hard and not very expensive. Little ones can be quite delicate and care must be taken to help them out. Once they reach a year or so they are almost indestructible. 26x50cm is way too small, even for a hatchling. The main reason is, as you are seeing, you can't maintain a proper heat gradient. You need to get a large plastic tub of some sort. Here in the US we call them sweater boxes or storage boxes. They are cheap and easy to find. The bigger the better but at least 60x90cm. This will allow you to set up a warm side (near the light, 80-90), a cool side (away from the light, 70-75), and a basking SPOT (directly under the hottest part of the light, around 100). You only need one small light on a 12-14 hour timer to do this. You get your temps right by adjusting the light higher or lower. I like to use a flat rock directly under the heat lamp for basking. If you are having appetite troubles, you may also need some night heat. For this you can use a cheap blue/red/black bulb or a Ceramic Heating Element. I'd place this either over the middle of the enclosure to warm the whole thing a bit or near whatever hide he sleeps in at night. Normally temps in the low 70's are fine for night, but in your case, I'd shoot for 80 for a while.
> 
> If you can get him outside for 20-30 minutes of direct sunshine a few times a week, you can forego all the expensive UVB and MVB lights. This will depend on the climate you live in. If the weather is cold there and the tort will be inside for weeks or months at a time you will NEED a MVB. These come as small as 100watts and you will need a relatively large enclosure to use this and not just over heat the whole thing.
> 
> On to bedding. There is a lot of debate and mis-information on this topic. Care fresh is not recommended for several reasons. It is too dry, no humidity. It is hard for a baby to walk on and Maggie has seen them get splayed leg syndrome from improper bedding. I have seen several animals die from impaction from eating this bedding. Instead you ought to use some sort of natural type bedding. Cypress mulch is great if you can get it where you are. If not, you can use one or a combination of the following: Orchid bark, coco coir (sometimes sold as "Bed-a-beast" or a few other names), plain soil (no additives like fertilizers, pesticides, water retainers, etc...). Some people like to mix in some sand too, but I don't like it. I just use regular old dirt for my outdoor enclosures and it works great too.
> 
> Humidity: Babies in the wild hide most of the time. The places they hide tend to be small and humid. Using the correct substrate will allow you to increase the overall humidity in the enclosure. This will help their shell to grow smooth, instead of pyramided. If you live in a dry, warm area, make it VERY humid in there. If you live in a cold clammy place, you might need to keep it a bit less humid. Give them some humid areas to hide too. There are a lot of threads on this forum for very creative ways to do this. Here's a simple one:
> 
> http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-12542.html?highlight=humid+hide+box
> 
> Here's an example of a simple sulcata set-up. The container can be anything. I used a big metal stock tank. All the elements are there though.
> 
> http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-13375.html?highlight=basic
> 
> We all want to see your tortoise grow up healthy and happy, so please hit us with all your questions and keep us posted.



What is an "mvb" and what does it look like? and thanks for all the help. ill get too it right away.


----------



## Kristina

Mercury Vapor Bulb. It combines basking heat with UV output.


----------



## abbs

okay, thatas what i thought, but i wasnt too sure. =) another question, does her water have to be warm in her water saucer?


----------



## Kristina

No, room temperature is fine.


----------



## abbs

when i keep it at warm temp, after a while i check to see how warm/cold it is and its cold. Thats why i was askin about her water. I didnt know if it was supposed to be warm at all.


----------



## Tom

Her drinking water can just be regular cage temp. For soaks, I like to go warm, but not hot. Get an aquarium thermometer if you are in doubt. I make my soaking water about 85-90, but it can cool quickly.


----------



## TortieLuver

I would also suggest allowing it to have a little outside time each day even with it getting the right indoor light. That tends to make their shells harder too.


----------



## abbs

ummkay, thanks(=


----------



## RichardS

As an alternative, you may want to consider using florescent tubes for lighting. In my opinion, MVB are overpriced and get dangerously hot. I use a 48" T-8 dual tube fixture. One bulb is a Zoo Med Reptisun 10.0 and the other is a Verilux Natural Spectrum tube. 
http://www.verilux.com/full-spectrum-lightbulbs/fluorescent-tubes

The light runs the length of the entire enclosure, so you can be sure the tortoise is getting its UVB/UVA all day. The tubes don't produce the same level of heat the MVB due, so you can position them much closer to the animal to limit the loss of effectiveness.

I use a ceramic heater for creating the temperature gradient.


----------



## Tom

Hi RichardS. You are welcome to your opinion and there is nothing wrong with doing it the way you've described, but I feel it would be a dis-service to NOT share my experience on this matter. I have pulled countless reptiles out from under those types of flourescent UV in various states of MBD. Almost always iguanas and bearded dragons. I have never pulled a reptile out from under a MVB with any degree of MBD. Different reptiles and different tortoises need different levels to thrive. Its debatable whether pythons, boas, monitors or tegus need any UV at all, while Iguanas and beardies need a lot. Likewise, there is debate on this forum about how much UV the forest species of torts need, but I can tell you that sulcatas (the tort this thread is about), leopards and CDTs need a lot. I don't personally believe the flourescents will get it done, unless the tortoise gets a lot of sunshine too. Also, heat AND UV from the same bulb is the whole point of using a MVB. The temperature needs to be checked and the bulb height adjusted to get just the right temp. Also MVBs make the same or less heat as a CHE of equal wattage.

I mean you NO disrespect, but if my previous observations are correct, this tortoises health could be at risk.


----------



## RichardS

Hi Tom, 

Thanks for your input, but I disagree. Adjusting the height of a MVB changes the amount of UV light reaching the substrate. The florescent tubes are at a constant distance from the animal and they run the length of the enclosure. Unlike ceramic heating elements, MVBs can't be hooked up to a thermostat to regulate the substrate temperature. I think the danger of overheating or dehydrating a hatchling tortoise of any species using an MVB is far greater than any perceived lack of UVB reaching the animal. 

I keep my tubes about 11" off the substrate and change them out after 6 months. I really think you should try this with your next batch of hatchlings. Whomever pays your electric bills will thank you.


----------



## dragnikla

I believe the enclosure is only 22" long so the fluorescent tube wouldn't fit. And you don't necessarily want the light running the full length of the enclosure. You want her to be able to sneak off and get in her hides without blaring lights on her.you already have the reptisun 10, and her shell is still soft. MVb is great but it could cook an enclosure that size, so make sure it is far enough away, or buy a large storage box to switch to before you get the light. your high temperature is fine (you said 95), you just need a cooler temperature zone as well. 

A larger plastic bin/tote/underbed box or whatever is cheap from home improvement stores or chain stores like walmart. The MVB will be overpriced at petstores so it is better to buy it online for half the price. I'm not sure where you are but places like lllreptile.com, reptile direct, reptileluv.com, or petmountain.com will have them for $40- $45. That is for either the Mega-Ray, T-Rex Active Heat, or Powersun Mercury Vapor Bulb. MVB bulbs last longer than the other bulbs as well.
For night time if it gets below 80 degrees at night in the enclosure you will need a black bulb $4 at home depot.

Substrate, if your going with coconut type you can find that at petco 1 brick $4, 3 bricks $8. they will also have something called forest floor which is the cypress mulch for around $5 for 4 quarts. In the long run I would try to find it at your home improvement store, but some places wont carry natural unadulterated cypress mulch. The organic topsoil will be at the home depot, I got mine for $1.50 for 80 cubic feet. The ingredients will say its all natural, and mine has sphagnum peat moss mixed in. You don't want anything that mentions perilite.

As far as a humidity gauge, you already have the thermometer so if it is not included than any other hygrometer should do. there have been threads on here about the best thermo/hygro combos, but for emergency humidity checking the $2 petco hygrometer will work.

so shopping list

larger bin- home improvement/walmart store $12
MVB- $80 in store, $45 online Mega-ray, T-rex, Powersun
Black Bulb (if temp below 80 at night)- $4 home improvement store
Substrate- petco eco earth/coco coir ($4-$8), cypress mulch forest floor($5), organic topsoil ($2)
Hygrometer- petco $2, or your favorite thermo/hygro combo around $25

Also I dont know if you have a dome style lamp or not, but that is the type recommended for use with MVBs because they need to be facing downwards not at an angle, the bulb is usually larger than the regular fixtures (except powersun 100 watt), and the dome prevents them from sticking out of the fixture and overheating.

I dont know if you have a clamp lamp or if you have a screen on the enclosure, but hardware cloth from the home improvement store is an easy cover for the storage bin and you could rest the dome lamp right on top without having to buy a lamp stand. If you already have a lamp stand then disregard



RichardS said:


> I keep my tubes about 11" off the substrate and change them out after 6 months. I really think you should try this with your next batch of hatchlings. Whomever pays your electric bills will thank you.



Abbs already has the reptisun 10, it doesn't seem to be enough. I think the humidity and heat is the problem. Mvbs can be expensive ($45) but according to the manufacturer they last twice as long as fluorescent tubes. It wouldn't hurt to have both especially since it is too cold to go outside. I guess we will see after the enclosure has been changed a bit.


----------



## Tom

RichardS said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> Thanks for your input, but I disagree. Adjusting the height of a MVB changes the amount of UV light reaching the substrate. The florescent tubes are at a constant distance from the animal and they run the length of the enclosure. Unlike ceramic heating elements, MVBs can't be hooked up to a thermostat to regulate the substrate temperature. I think the danger of overheating or dehydrating a hatchling tortoise of any species using an MVB is far greater than any perceived lack of UVB reaching the animal.
> 
> I keep my tubes about 11" off the substrate and change them out after 6 months. I really think you should try this with your next batch of hatchlings. Whomever pays your electric bills will thank you.



This is all fine and good, but you didn't address or acknowledge that they don't work. Do you have personal experience with dozens or hundreds of individuals of the species I mentioned being kept long term under those flourescent bulbs? I do. As I said, I've had to rehab dozens of them. If they come to me in the winter, during a cold spell, and I can't get them in the sun, I rehab them and stop the MBD using a MVB. I adjust the height of every one of them to get the desired temp. They make enough UV to stop MBD at any height. The flourescent tubes usually do not. I have had to rehab many reptiles from people who used flourescents. I have never seen MBD in any animal of any species kept under a MVB at any height.


----------



## RichardS

Tom said:


> I have pulled countless reptiles out from under those types of flourescent UV in various states of MBD.





Tom said:


> I have never pulled a reptile out from under a MVB with any degree of MBD.





Tom said:


> I have never seen MBD in any animal of any species kept under a MVB at any height.



Hi Tom. Your argument contains a post hoc logical fallacy. The conclusion of your two posts is that the florescent tubes cause MBD. 

I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t think its fair to assume MBD is so simple. I also think the number of contributing factors go beyond the UVB output of your bulb. You failed to mention any of the other husbandry conditions of the Ã¢â‚¬Å“hundredsÃ¢â‚¬Â of reptiles you have saved from fluorescent tubes. 

I like to deal with facts. I know there are UVB output tests published on the internet. LetÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s try to find them.


----------



## Tom

RichardS said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have pulled countless reptiles out from under those types of flourescent UV in various states of MBD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have never pulled a reptile out from under a MVB with any degree of MBD.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have never seen MBD in any animal of any species kept under a MVB at any height.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hi Tom. Your argument contains a post hoc logical fallacy. The conclusion of your two posts is that the florescent tubes cause MBD.
> 
> I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t think its fair to assume MBD is so simple. I also think the number of contributing factors go beyond the UVB output of your bulb. You failed to mention any of the other husbandry conditions of the Ã¢â‚¬Å“hundredsÃ¢â‚¬Â of reptiles you have saved from fluorescent tubes.
> 
> I like to deal with facts. I know there are UVB output tests published on the internet. LetÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s try to find them.
Click to expand...


I drew no such conclusion. My conclusion is that the flourescents do not produce enough UV to prevent MBD and that the MVBs do. I've seen the packages and the manufacturers websites with claims of what their bulbs produce. I've seen lots of studies measuring UV output and D3 blood content in Iguanas and tortoises. I've seen UV output charts on the internet too. All of these things become irrelevant when you are standing in front of an otherwise well cared for animal who has MBD with a flourescent UV bulb or two right above their head. The only cases where they didn't have a problem was if they were getting them out for regular sunshine. Then the flourescent tubes worked like magic.

I was the reptile guy in more than one pet shop for 8 years before starting my current career. I used to sell the flourescent set-ups to people all the time. I'd tell them to get their animal out for sunshine too, but many chose not to. The ones that did put their reptiles in the sun had healthy animals, the ones who didn't would call up and ask why their animal was getting fat and not eating. Then they'd call back a week or two later and ask why their animal was "twitching" all the time. I was privy to the experience of hundreds of my customers.

You can disregard what I'm telling you and keep your animals however you like. If they are getting some sunshine occasionally, as they should, you won't have a problem with your set-up. I feel it is important for new people, who are asking for help, to get as much info as possible, so that they can make the best decisions possible about the care of their animals. In my mind the whole point of a forum like this is to gain the wisdom and experience of others without the people or animals having to suffer through the same mistakes they made to gain that wisdom and experience. You are welcome to learn what I have learned the hard way, but, if possible, I'd like to help some others not have to learn it the hard way.


----------



## RichardS

I found a cool site that measures UVB output and there is no question that spot lamp MVB produce a greater amount of UVB light at < 12" http://www.uvguide.co.uk/

At those distances I'd worry we'd set the substrate on fire. Plus, unless the tortoise is directly under the beam they drop off is so significant, they are actually less effective than the tubes. Check out the results for yourself:

MVB:
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/spreadchartcombo.htm

Fluorescent:
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/fluorescenttuberesults.htm
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/fluorescenttubereflectortests.htm

Here is the summary: two identical Zoo Med Reptisun 5.0 24" tube emitted 65uW/cm2 at 12". It would not be a stretch to imagine 10.0 bulbs with longer (and higher wattage) would produce even better results.

The Zoo Med Powersun 100 watt flood emitted 40uW/cm2 at 12"
T-Rex Active UV Heat 100 watt emitted 200uW/cm2 at 12" and 100uW/cm2 at 18"


----------



## Kristina

I hate to be the stick in the mud here, you guys are BOTH making really great points, but I am afraid that you are going confuse poor abbs....

New thread? Just an idea


----------



## Tom

kyryah said:


> I hate to be the stick in the mud here, you guys are BOTH making really great points, but I am afraid that you are going confuse poor abbs....
> 
> New thread? Just an idea



Now THAT is a good point. Thanks.


----------



## RichardS

Tom said:


> I feel it is important for new people, who are asking for help, to get as much info as possible, so that they can make the best decisions possible about the care of their animals. In my mind the whole point of a forum like this is to gain the wisdom and experience of others without the people or animals having to suffer through the same mistakes they made to gain that wisdom and experience.



I couldn't agree more, which is exactly why I weighed in. 



Tom said:


> You are welcome to learn what I have learned the hard way, but, if possible, I'd like to help some others not have to learn it the hard way.



I really donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t know what this means. I think you are under the assumption that I am a newbie. Perhaps you should introduce fluorescent bulbs into your sulcata experiment? Did you ever consider the dehydrating effect of a basking bulb on a hatchling, which may contribute to pyramiding? My guess is no.


----------



## dragnikla

These are definitely really great points Tom and Richard, and it is important for people to be educated. But right now the question of the fluorescent tubes is irrelevent because abbs already has the reptisun 10, the tort isn't going outside on a regular basis due to weather, the substrate is dry and the tort is still sick. If abbs can't get the MVB then we will see what happens with the moist substrate, and the fluorescent tubes, hopefully the tort will get better regardless of the experiences people have had with fluorescent tubes. When abbs gets the larger enclosure the heat will become more of a problem, so hopefully if there is an MVB by then, that will be accounted for as well as the UVB. We all need to wait to hear back from abbs about the adjustments, and the torts condition. Saving money is great, but not at the expense of our loved ones.


----------



## abbs

i changed my substate to some topsoil. My little tort is doing much better, running around and eating. I had her outside for an hr the otherday (weather was great) and the day before that for like 45 min. Shes always on the run, grazing on grass as she keeps trucking around my yard.


----------

