# Curiosity and legality question...



## Jacqui (Sep 9, 2011)

Okay we all know, you are not allowed to take the DTs across state lines. We also know your not to incubate them in CA. Now, since I have not read this anywhere, can you take DT eggs out of state?


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## dmmj (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

I would say no, since they are a protected species you are not supposed to disturb the eggs, I would assume that digging them up and transporting them would be included in that.

If anyone disagrees or know differently please say so.


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## Jacqui (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

Except I do recall some where, where they suggest you to destroy those eggs.


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## dmmj (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

as far as I know destroying the eggs would be a crime, this is the way it was explained to me, the eggs one laid cannot be helped (incubation) or harmed in any way they are considered protected like the tortoises are.


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## Kristina (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

I see where this is going Jacqui, and I wanna know for sure too....


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## Torty Mom (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

Hmmm, I did some googling and nothing states crossing state lines. However I did find, that it IS illegal to allow them to breed. I am going to email one of the CTTC members here and see if I can find something out. 

This link has tons of info, but not the answer that I could find.

http://www.deserttortoise.org/answeringquestions/chapter1.html


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## Yvonne G (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

At the very beginning of the regulations regarding the tortoise section it refers to tortoises and eggs. Both considered to be the same thing.


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## Shelly (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

Does it say anything about decorating them for Easter?


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## ascott (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

Hi all  
It is against the law to co habitat male and female CDT in the same space as breeding is strictly prohibited.....if you rescue/host a female and she lays clutch of eggs you are not permitted to touch,harm,harass, molest nor sell the eggs.... 
The whole idea behind folks being allowed to host (not own) CDT is to care for now captive tortoise through out their remaining natural life and not to breed captive CDT....and AZ has even stricter laws than CA..... if you go to CA Dept of Fish & Game you can obtain the entire law for CDT as well as AZ Fish & Game for their laws....

The prime goal should be preservation and conservation of these guys in the wild....

Shelly you are silly


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## Jacqui (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

I have nothing against conservation of those still left in the wild. We are not talking here of wild animals, I am referring to the ones living in backyards.

I think these laws are completely stupid and not in the best interest of these animals. Why not allow them to breed? Why not allow them to go out of state? To me, that would be in the best interest of the species.

These tortoises are in essence the property of the USA, not just the few states they are found in naturally. Why not let the rest of the country also take a role in keeping them alive?


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## ascott (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

Jacqui, I believe that there should be better guidelines set up to re-introduce the CDT back into the wild. I know that there is a source or two (not many, not enough) that are in the business of rehab and reintroduction....but there are so many other things that happen to cause the situation to be grim that these guys are in. 

In my opinion, if there were no laws set up and these guys were not on a list for protection then there would be even fewer in the wild. For so many years in the past (and still in this day and age) so many people ripped them from the wild only to be left poorly cared for in backyards to die, or they were neglected in such a way to cause such stress which in turn brought on disease, then they would be tossed back into the desert and not always where they should have but in areas where death was certain, as well as exposure to healthy wild populations....bad all of the way around.

The flip side of the way I feel is this, we have them added to list to be protected, yet then we later sell them out and allow solar plants to be built on prime habitat (could be granted in other areas that would be less of a disturbance to them and other desert dwellers and plants) we have government that are quick to collect and displace them but with little account for their actual long term survival let alone thriving conditions....I know for a fact that the last time the translocation was done for the CDT they were hoarded up, moved and set down without even so much as increased native planting done to support them...a bit backwards, in my opinion...now we have an expressway that is on the block to be approved that will, once again, plow right through vital CDT habitat...so my feelings are always mixed on this whole issue....set em up to protect them, fight to move them so money can be made, move em to non prime habitat, they then are subject to starvation, disease and predation that they would not have had to deal with if just left alone....so, yes, personal two sided on the whole issue....however, I have to continue to side with the law as their only thread of hope....


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## Angi (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

I believe they are the property of the state not the federal goverment. I hope this isn't off topic.....but an Indian Reservation in California is not part of the state of California (They say) they do not fly the California flag, but do fly the U.S. flag. They say they are a sovereign nation. I drive through Barona all the time. If I have my CDT with me am I breaking the law?

I also read somewhere that you should destroy eggs but I don't know where. I could never do that.


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## Jacqui (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*



Angi said:


> I believe they are the property of the state not the federal goverment. I hope this isn't off topic.....but an Indian Reservation in California is not part of the state of California (They say) they do not fly the California flag, but do fly the U.S. flag. They say they are a savernt (sp?) nation. I drive through Barona all the time. If I have my CDT with me am I breaking the law?
> 
> I also read somewhere that you should destroy eggs but I don't know where. I could never do that.



Technically you would be if you crossed into the reservation.


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## dmmj (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

here is the problem as i see it, we call them California desert tortoises, but the tortoise does not really care where it lives, the tortoise would probably being happy just about anywhere in the country where it can eat, mate, and hibernate when necessary. We should rename all of them the gopherus species and let them live anywhere in the country. But oh no that might make sense to some people and make things easier and we all know the goverment can't do that.


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## ascott (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

Angi, I think you would be alright anywhere within the state of california to have in your care, custody and control a CDT with the appropriate permits of course , regardless of what the tribes have set up they are still within the state of california.....

I too absolutely would not, could not smash CDT eggs, nor any other living creatures eggs. I do not believe the design of the law is to encourage one to purposely go out of their way to destroy CDT eggs, but rather in place to simply outline, "let nature takes its course", and if you find eggs, let em be. 

If you should have a viable hatchling born in captivity it will not be subject to release into the wild, therefore you have a captive born hatchling and they can be permitted as such at the suggested age  (can't say they are captive bred for sure since females can retain the ability to lay eggs for years, so who is to say they were wild bred/captive bred---and folks that have had them for a long period of time should do the species justice and house the males/females separate from one another) 

Unfortunately, there is a HUGE population of now captive CDT in rescues just waiting to be taken in by a host that will love and adore them....and these guys live for soooo many years, I personally believe, there is no justified reason to breed them into captivity on purpose...again, my personal belief....


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## Jacqui (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*



ascott said:


> Unfortunately, there is a HUGE population of now captive CDT in rescues just waiting to be taken in by a host that will love and adore them....and these guys live for soooo many years, I personally believe, there is no justified reason to breed them into captivity on purpose...again, my personal belief....



So why not let the rest of the country have them?





dmmj said:


> here is the problem as i see it, we call them California desert tortoises, but the tortoise does not really care where it lives, the tortoise would probably being happy just about anywhere in the country where it can eat, mate, and hibernate when necessary. We should rename all of them the gopherus species and let them live anywhere in the country. But oh no that might make sense to some people and make things easier and we all know the goverment can't do that.



Makes complete sense to me and this is exactly my line of thinking.


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## ascott (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

Jacqui, In my opinion , the rest of the country is not designed to allow a desert dweller to thrive in their climates/weather not conducive to their well being....indoor housing, for the usual host, is not sufficient to meet their long long life....

I believe that these guys are stuck in the same sinking boat as so many other animals that we humans are directly responsible for their demise by our overpopulation to this earth...as a downfall of this overpopulation, other creatures are literally snuffed out, off the face of the earth....so while I too have internal conflict with this entire subject (for the tortoise as well as so many other creatures we disregard with a sad face, a tear and onto the next day) we humans are such a creature of "want" that I believe we will one day realize, hopefully not too late, that our want and greed has done ourselves in as well....so, Jacqui, I completely understand where you are coming from, completely. 

I think that if we all used less, wanted less, demanded less, gave more, let live more, enjoy the moment more, extend our hands more, lower our eyes in shame more, truly cry from our hearts for others sadness and misfortune more, humble ourselves to one another more, just love one another more....our world, as beautiful and magnificent as she is, would thrive in a marvelous way, in a way that we can only imagine, an ideal world.... true self preservation would blossom, in my humble opinion :shy:


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## Jacqui (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

Now I know from personal experience that they can and do thrive outside of their native areas. I inherited ones years back, who outlived two sets of humans before Elmer came to live with us. Even back then, when these folks did just about everything wrong as far as diet and the like, he grew and never was sick. think how much better his life would be, if it was under today's much more understanding ways of caring for them. I find the "reasoning" that they can't do well outside of their natural range to be, well bunk. 

It's kinda along the lines of saying a Red eared slider should not be living in a desert area... just saying.


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## dmmj (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

my relatives have some in colorado.


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## ascott (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

In my opinion, there will always be exceptions, to every normal


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## Torty Mom (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

2 of my hatchlings came from local farmers who found them on their land and were turned into our cttc chapter. I am sure I will be getting a few more in. I REALLY wish we could raise them to be 3 or 4 years old and then release them back into the wild. I think it would be awesome. I would love for Lou to be a daddy one day. I got Penny from a friend who has had her torts for years and years and she like the others were hatched from mother earth. I see both sides of the fence. Like the IRS says maybe it's a "GRAY" area.........


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## dmmj (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

last time I checked there are breeding programs in CA but they are highly regulated, and very few permits are issued, usually only to biologists in cooperation with the state.


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## ascott (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

Mary Anne, perfectly worded and a wish I absolutely share with you .....


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## Torty Mom (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

Biologists shmyologists, I can do the same thing they can do and my babies would be cuter!  In case you guys and gals didn't know LOU is the handsomest tortie ever and would make the bestest babies ever!  

If you have a small hatchling community that has not been exposed to another "Older" tortie, I think it would be a win win situation!


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

I live in Oregon and know of a Gopherus agassizii who lives on the Oregon Coast in a very wet environment as it rains more there than here and the Coast has the ocean so things are wet all the time anyhow, this desert tortoise has lived there quite happily for what I saw and he is 35 years old, so he is living in a way that is not normal for him and he's beautiful and very healthy...
It can be done and we should be allowed to have them in other states...

Also the sun rarely shines here.


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## ascott (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

Mary Anne, I am always quietly apologizing to my four handsome guys....sorry that who ever it was that lifted them from their home did so and I often wonder if the three big guys I have had had at least a chance to participate in reproduction prior to them being removed from the wild....hope so hope so hope so....and i agree, Lou would make handsome hatchlings


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## Torty Mom (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

Angela, but you have to remember they have it good with you. Free food and water!! Woot woot!! Not going weeks and weeks without food or water must totally suck on any level. So you are lucky to have them and they are lucky to have you. That's how I feel about Lou. It's paradise. I wish I had more land. I would have a bunch!!  

I have another idea! Not that anyone is going to listen to a "Tortie Mom" from Bakersfield California, but I have one anyway!

Since we have to have permits, why can't those peeps apply for a "special permit" that would allow for interstate hosting. Let's say California would still "Own" the tort but he lives at Jacqui's house. Let's say she would have to provide info kinda like a home inspection, or torts that were taken from their homeland can be returned to their homeland or Mary Anne's house like the tortie in Georgia. I would take him in a second, so would a few others. Again a win, win for the species. 

I think they are doing the GT's a disservice, I agree with you too, there should be exceptions.


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## ascott (Sep 9, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

..  ..


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## jackrat (Sep 10, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

Only our government could come up with something like saying don't allow endangered animals to reproduce. DUH


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## Madkins007 (Sep 10, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

If you look at this from the standpoint of the people trying to protect an actively endangered species, who are trying hard to make the right decisions and have decades of history of people doing very bad things for very good reasons, most of this makes perfect sense.

Released captives (even those that were originally WC) have released dangerous pathogens in the wild populations and even caused local extinctions in many kinds of animals, even desert tortoises. Because of this, there is an effort to create a 'Chinese wall' between the truly wild populations and those torts that may possibly have been exposed to something dangerous for the rest of them.

The more 'uncontrolled' desert torts there are in captivity, the greater the chance of releases and escapes, and the more buying/selling there will be- all of which can lead to possibly severe problems for the wild populations.

It might make sense to find a way to permanently identify 'captive' desert or related torts, then allow a relatively free trade outside of their range, but the environmental and protective groups involved do not put a high importance on tortoise keeping and are busy enough as it is.


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## ascott (Sep 10, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

Madkins007 I personally hope there is never a way for yet another wild species of tortoise to be turned into a pet.....I believe that there should be no further species subject to the free trade market....it would be yet another horrific display of humans thinking they know best. I personally would like my son and his children and their children to have that awe inspiring moment in life when out in the wild hiking coming across a wild gopherus gracing them with a siting of a wild, beautiful, resourceful, majestic creature that they will scramble for their camera to capture a moment in time....that is what the beauty of nature should be appreciated for.... I love our state reptile...in all of his splendor, beauty and there is a reason they have that intense...regal...knowledgeable piercing look in their eye....if not corralled and cornered...if not forced to submit to captivity...they truly can survive and thrive....but if forced to comply...if forced to submit...if forced to give up all that make them gladiators of the desert....if forced to survive and not thrive...then pets they will be....IMHO


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## Torty Mom (Sep 10, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

Agreed


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## chairman (Oct 13, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

I'm sorry if I'm hijacking the thread a bit, but I have a similar curiousity and legality question about some Gopherus tortoises. Anyone seen the 2011 CBB Gopherus berlandieri for sale on fauna? http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267017
There you've got a Gopherus species available for sale from Mexico that is apparently able to be both sold and sold across national/state lines. I have to admit that I'm more than a bit tempted by these guys, but something about the situation just seems incredibly illegal to me. However, if it is legal, anyone wanting a gopherus outside of their natural zone could get one. Anyone hear anything about this particular situation?


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## dmmj (Oct 13, 2011)

*RE: Curiousity and legality question...*

Gopherus berlandieri, Is listed as the texas torotise, so I would imagine it can't be sold in the US in mexico is another matter. As for shipping across the state lines I would imagine it is illegal to do so, despite what the ad on fauna says. anyone else have any thoughts on the matter.


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## Kristina (Oct 13, 2011)

I saw that ad, and if it is legal, I would jump on it myself.


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## ascott (Oct 13, 2011)

Below is a portion of their article, simply for reference (from the World Chelonian Trust)...also, it appears that there are ways to obtain the permit from CITES to export as they allow set numbers per year....so very sad  IMHO 

"For many of the older keepers in the United States this was the very first tortoise that they owned. In the late 1950s and early 1960s, they could be found in many of the â€œfive and dimesâ€ of the day such as SS Kresge (now Kmart) and FW Woolworths (now Footlocker) for as little as five dollars apiece. With the knowledge of how to provide for tortoises in those days being virtually non-existent, sadly nearly all of these â€œfirstâ€ tortoises died, much like the stores that sold them. 
The Texas tortoise (Gopherus berlandieri) is found from South-Central Texas in the United States southward into the Mexican States of Coahuila, Nuevo Leon, and Tamaulipas. It is the smallest of the Gopherus species growing to only about 8.5 inches (22 cm) SCL. The species is listed internationally as a CITES II species and is federally listed in the United States under the Endangered Species Act. Because of this protected status, it is illegal to collect a Texas tortoise from the wild in the United States. The only legal manner in which to acquire a Texas tortoise is by adopting one from a state recognized organization or to be given a hatchling from a breeding captive animal. Again, check with your state wildlife agency BEFORE you consider adopting an animal of this species as United States federal law protects it."


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