# Desert Tortoise Hatchling Indoor Habitat Questions



## the_newzie (Nov 3, 2014)

Well, it's not the winter villa in the south of France that Steve was hoping for, but since the weather turned real cold, real quick, we thought we'd listen to the overwhelming advice and bring him in for the season. put this together in about 3 hrs. Has both a uvb/heat lamp (for sun simulation in the day) and an CHE for nighttime temp control. a digital thermometer. Substrate is coconut. There's a bit of wheat grass for immediate grazing. And yes, that's a 100% authentic game of thrones box set acting as his burrow. Okay, so now the question is, besides a water dish (it'll be in tomorrow) and some more grazing food, what am I missing?


----------



## Yvonne G (Nov 4, 2014)

Oh man...I'm sorry to shoot you down, but cardboard is way so not good. Your new desert tortoise baby needs a moist substrate and you can't provide "moist" in cardboard. This isn't big enough, but here's an example of what I'm talking about:




These were brought over to me and I didn't have another tub, so I divided an existing habitat down the middle. They will get their own habitat as soon as payday rolls around. But you see what I mean? A plastic tub with substrate that can be moistened, maybe a plant or two and a hiding place with a feeding station and a waterer. I cover this with foil to keep the moisture inside.


----------



## Yvonne G (Nov 4, 2014)

Also, your lights/heat may be up too high. Get a point and shoot temperature gauge measurer (scientific term) and see what the temp is in there. I'll bet it's not warm enough.


----------



## the_newzie (Nov 4, 2014)

Only the short sides are lined with cardboard and will be replaced by something more permanent as soon as I can. This was built quick and cheap from an old cabinet. I don't know about moist substrate. This guy usually lives outside in Vegas and with the exception of his water dish, moist isn't something normally available. Plus I've read that moisture and humidity are the causes of rot and respiratory issues. I could be wrong. Have a digital thermometer. Temp is a steady 75 with the CHE at night. Uvb bulb should get it to 90 in the day (today is first day and I will be checking regularly).


----------



## Tom (Nov 4, 2014)

the_newzie said:


> Only the short sides are lined with cardboard and will be replaced by something more permanent as soon as I can. This was built quick and cheap from an old cabinet. I don't know about moist substrate. This guy usually lives outside in Vegas and with the exception of his water dish, moist isn't something normally available. Plus I've read that moisture and humidity are the causes of rot and respiratory issues. I could be wrong. Have a digital thermometer. Temp is a steady 75 with the CHE at night. Uvb bulb should get it to 90 in the day (today is first day and I will be checking regularly).



You've been reading old outdated info, like most of us have for years. Dehydration is the number one killer of desert tortoise babies. They don't live above ground in the hot dry air. They live underground down where the desert earthworms live. Think about it for just a second...

Damp substrate, a humid hide and some moderate humidity is closer to the inside of the burrow where these guys live than an open topped dry enclosure with a hot bulb in a super dry heated or air conditioned house.

What kind of UV bulb are you using? MVBs are good. Coil types can cause eye damage.

I typed this up for russian tortoises, but I house DTs the exact same way. Diet is similar too, I just add a bit more grass for the DTs. _THIS_ is how baby DTs should be housed. All of mine housed this way survive and thrive. So many of the ones housed dry die. Its so sad and easily preventable. Don't be afraid of a little water. Dampness does not cause rot or respirator infection in this species. Cold temps do. If your night temp is staying 75, then you are golden man. Please give these a read through:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/semi-underground-russian-box.98590/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/


----------



## the_newzie (Nov 4, 2014)

Hmm, I'll look into dampening things up a bit (with exception of cardboard lined short walls it's totally water proof so I'll prob start misting the ground once I do some more research and ask my vet (what you say about burrow makes logical sense just want to be sure after reading so much anti-moisture articles). Bulb is a mercury uvb/heat bulb. It was the most expensive bulb I can find without ordering online. So far this morning since switching from CHE to light, it's up to about 85 so I think my light distances are ok. I'll take a look through those threads. Thanks.


----------



## Yvonne G (Nov 4, 2014)

One thing to consider, desert tortoises don't get shell rot as easily as redfooted tortoises do. Also, you're not making him live in wet conditions, just damp and humid. Believe me, he won't get shell rot. I have many, many years of experience with desert tortoises.


----------



## Tom (Nov 4, 2014)

the_newzie said:


> Hmm, I'll look into dampening things up a bit (with exception of cardboard lined short walls it's totally water proof so I'll prob start misting the ground once I do some more research and ask my vet (what you say about burrow makes logical sense just want to be sure after reading so much anti-moisture articles).



I understand your need to do "research", but understand that your vet is most likely reading the same stuff as you are. SInce you actually keep tortoises, you are likely to know more than your vet already.

Vets, books, breeders and experts are the ones promoting this old outdated incorrect info. They are the source of the problem, not the answer to it. I know. I've been in the pet industry since 1986 and I used to be one of them...

{Sigh...} This has been an uphill battle for many years for me. Forgive my frustration. Do you know how I know the dry routine kills baby DTs? Take a guess... Do you know how I know keeping them with moderate humidity, warmer temps and daily soaks helps them to all survive and thrive? Hint: Its the same answer. I stopped asking vets for their advice when their advice repeatedly led to failure over a span of decades. Through much trial and error, and help from other keepers, I figured out what _actually_ works, vs. what they say should work based on incorrect assumptions about the environment where DTs come from. Now my vets all call me and ask for tortoise advice...

Do your research, but come back and question it all. Ask me how I know what I know, and why its right. Ask me why each of their specific statements is wrong. Invite your vet to join us here and we can all talk about it. I would love to open the eyes of yet another vet. I have the experience and results to back up my assertions, not book knowledge that I just read in the back room from a vet handbook.

Well that is my case, your honor, judge as you will...


----------



## the_newzie (Nov 4, 2014)

Lol. Good argument counsel. Luckily here in Vegas, the vet I go to for Steve is a tortoise freak. He has 3 desert torts himself. Normally it's him telling me allthe stuff I read is wrong. (the 2 of you have similar views on non experienced docs talking tortoises when they have no experience). Either way you'll be happy to know upon your and Yvonnes advice, I misted the whole place down this morning to give it some moisture. Will monitor and adjust as the days go by. Just happy to get him inside and safe. I assure you Steve's habitat will grow and evolve as my knowledge grows and evolves. He'll prob have a better set up than me by end of winter. Lol.


----------



## Tom (Nov 4, 2014)

That's good news newzie. Thanks.

While you sort out all this info, daily soaks will do a world of good for your baby. Shallow, warm water in a tall sided opaque tub for 15-30 minutes a day, will help to keep him and his internal organs hydrated.

Here is a thread I did on how people tend to raise hatchlings that might offer some insight into what we've been talking about here. This is more about other species, but the same principals apply to DT babies.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/


----------



## the_newzie (Nov 4, 2014)

Awesome, I just got done reading through the threads Tom put up and I think I'm definitely doing more right than wrong. Your outdoor burrow setup looks a lot like the one I did. As for the indoor set up, he has his water dish all nice and cleaned and ready for soaks. I'll save myself the vet visit and just keep misting down the coconut substrate (that should be fine right? I don't actually have to soak the substrate or anything?). I doubt you and Yvonne are steering me wrong in that regard. I'll have the cardboard replaced with cutouts from an old plastic container by the end of the day, so that should get me and Steve in a good place for now (I hope). I think the sizing of the habitat is adequate (I'm trying to talk my wife into letting me repurpose a gigantic china cabinet we don't use, but I'm not holding my breath). Worst case scenario, I start finding some good, chemical free reclaimed wood for an actual custom table set-up. Oh, also, besides the obvious "don't let them touch anything while they're hot" and "don't spray them directly with water" anything else I should know about the fire dangers of the CHE or the MVB? I really like my house and don't want to burn it down.


----------



## Tom (Nov 4, 2014)

the_newzie said:


> Oh, also, besides the obvious "don't let them touch anything while they're hot" and "don't spray them directly with water" anything else I should know about the fire dangers of the CHE or the MVB? I really like my house and don't want to burn it down.



Just mount the fixtures correctly and don't rely on the clamps that come with them. I hang them from overhead by a chain or by the cord. No electrician will tell you its okay to hang them by the cord, but I've been doing it for almost 3 decades with no problems. Still, you can't sue me if you hang yours by the cord and your house burns down...

About the substrate spraying. It really accomplishes very little. Surface moisture evaporates quickly and can actually make a chill. Better to dump water into the substrate and dampen the lower layers. This give you a little more humidity throughout the day, but the open top will prevent you from attaining unusually high levels of humidity. You should also be offering a humid hide. I like to use black dishwashing tubs from Walmart. They only cost $1.82. I flip them upside down, cut out a door hole and dampen the substrate under them. This will give the little guy a more humid area to hang out in if he wishes. This will help the shell grow smoother and reduce water loss through respiration.

You can get a second tub for soaking if you wish. Allowing them a shallow water dish is not "soaking" them. They need both. Soaking them insures that they will stay hydrated for you. There are many reasons why a tortoise might choose to not drink or use their water bowl. Frequent soaking will make sure that your baby is hydrated whether he chooses to use his water bowl or not.


----------



## the_newzie (Nov 4, 2014)

Okay, substrate now dampened. To update on how Steve is, he's out and awake. He was eagerly devouring his salad. Had a small soak in the water dish. Now for clarification, to soak him I have traditionally set him in his water dish (clay pot bottom, no fear of drowning or tipping over) and watched him as he sits, sprinkle water on shell and checking the temp to make sure water isn't getting cold. Not sure what the point of getting a larger soaking setup would be (i wouldn't feel comfortable with any deeper water) maybe I'm misunderstanding? He's good about sitting in there for 15-30 mins. Can you expand a bit on benefits of using a large soaking station? Picture attached for reference.


----------



## Tom (Nov 4, 2014)

The soaking tub should be shallow too. The point of it is that he can't just walk out when he feels like it. The reason I recommend this is because most tortoises walk out of their bowl as soon as you set them in it, or shortly thereafter. Its pretty unusual for a young tortoise to just sit in its water dish for 20-30 minutes. If yours is doing that regularly, then you probably don't need to soak in a separate tub.


----------



## the_newzie (Nov 4, 2014)

Ok cool. Yeah, as long as the water temp is nice and warm, he seems to be content just staying in there. It's weird, sometime he seems to play in there by sticking his nose in the water and blowing bubbles (not sure if that's normal or not, but it's hilarious to watch). If he starts becoming more rambunctious, I'll move him into a separate soaker tub.


----------



## the_newzie (Nov 6, 2014)

Just to follow up. Cardboard has been replaced. Substrate is now decently damp (without being soggy). Steve seems to be liking his new setup and he's eating like a champ. MVB and CHE have been alternating in 12 hr. cycles and my house has not burned down (gets to a max of 93 during the day and down to a low of 75 at night). I think I'm going to take advantage of the cooler outside temps in these winter months to expand and improve on his outdoor habitat. If I follow through, I'm going to double the square footage, redo the original burrow to be more "age appropriate", add in a 2nd burrow, a hide, a second grazing section as well as improve the substrate by breaking up all the hard dirt and mixing in a good amount of coco coir/orchid bark to make it a bit more tortoise friendly. Hopefully I stay motivated and knock all of that out before the temps start rising again (and without totally destroying my drip system). Yay projects!


----------



## Tom (Nov 6, 2014)

Man all of that just sounds fantastic.

But why do you want to break up the hardpack dirt? I'd leave it as is. Its easier for them to walk on packed dirt than soft stuff. 

Grazing areas and multiple burrows sound excellent!


----------



## the_newzie (Nov 6, 2014)

Yeah, the plans I have in my head seem very doable. The hard pack just seems kinda harsh as is. Not going to go full on soft stuff just gonna mix in some of the soft stuff to try to get a nice medium. I'll post pics of the construction throughout the process to get feedback. Thinking of starting a thread that'll document my experience (good, bad and ugly) as a newbie tortoise handler from the moment I got Steve to now and then update it as I go. Kind of a "Life and Times of Steven Q. Tortoise" type of thing...


----------



## the_newzie (Nov 8, 2014)

Ok. Steve seems to be doing well in his new indoor habitat. We added in a nice paved stone for basking. He's eating well, soaking well. If anything, my only worry is he doesn't seem quite as active (barely noticeable, I may even be imagining it). Could that be due to smaller winter enclosure or stress from moving? Got him outside for an hr or two to take advantage of an unusually hot day. Also, finally got around to measuring and weighing Steve. This is after he ate some salad and had a soak. Weight = 30.8g and see picture for size. Thoughts, comments guesses at actual age? EDIT: as soon as we got outside, worries about activity level vanished he was speed racing up and down his outdoor habitat. I think he misses being outside.


----------



## the_newzie (Nov 8, 2014)

How did I not know there was a mobile app for this site!?!?


----------



## Ciri (Nov 8, 2014)

The sun & the fresh air do get them more active.

He does seem small for his age. Of course, we don't know what size he was when he hatched. Anyway, the important thing is that he's eating well and healthy, and that does seem to be the case.

from the Arizona game and Fish website on desert tortoise hatchlings:
The hatchling diet should contain about twice the protein and half the fiber content of the adult diet until the third year. A tortoise that does not receive adequate protein will develop a thin shell, become stunted, and have a greatly reduced life expectancy. Good sources of protein for young tortoises include natural forages like mallows, primroses, and rock hibiscus, cultivated plants like clover and dichondra, and produce like kale, collards, turnip greens, beet greens, mustard greens, spinach, bok choy, dandelion greens, parsley and cilantro. Chopped Timothy or Bermuda grass hay is another good option.
See the full info:
http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/tortoise/hatchling.shtml


The Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum has excellent info compiled by reptile specialist veterinarian who has cared for the museum's desert tortoises for 35 years, and is well known here among tortoise keepers:

http://www.desertmuseum.org/programs/tap_tortcare.php

This care sheet doesn't address how often to soak a hatchling desert tortoise. I prefer to have water constantly available, as you are doing.

This is a brochure listing lots of really healthy foods for desert tortoises:
http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/tortoise/documents/NativePlantsforDesertTortoises_2008.pdf

a good source of seeds (they even have a desert tortoise wildflower mix):
http://shop.nativeseeds.org/pages/seeds

Hope this helps.


----------



## the_newzie (Nov 8, 2014)

Good advice ALWAYS helps! I've found the azgfd guides to be very helpful so far. I've just been learning that guides are great as long as I make the extra effort to confirm the info with people who've been practicing the techniques.

I'm still kicking myself for not getting better info as to his hatching date and what went on before I got him (the coworker who asked me to care for him left our firm shortly after I received him). So I don't even know a definitive age for him to be small for. Lol. 

Going to the local reptile specialty store today to get him some calcium supplement (something I've been neglecting up to this point). Going to try to keep at least a weekly log of size/weight and that should give me the data to more accurately keep tabs on his health. 

Get a tortoise they told me... They're low maintenance they told me... LOL!!!!


----------



## Ciri (Nov 8, 2014)

Low maintenance! LOL!! I agree!!!


----------



## the_newzie (Nov 9, 2014)

First meal with Rep-Cal sprinkle. So far so good!


----------



## the_newzie (Nov 13, 2014)

Well Steve's indoor habitat has evolved a lot. The base structure is the same (minus the cardboard of course, thanks Yvonne, now that I'm moistening the bottom layers I definitely see what you mean), I've added a paver stone in the basking area, a sight barrier and a hill. Plus, today I wanted to put in a little hide by the basking stone, but I couldn't find anything ideal for the space, I searched and searched until I remembered that our god daughter used to horde legos at our house!!! Well, I channeled my inner 6 yr old and, boom, Steve has a new hide!


----------



## Ciri (Nov 14, 2014)

I would love to see a picture of Steve in his new lego hide. That sounds brilliant!


----------



## the_newzie (Nov 14, 2014)

Ciri said:


> I would love to see a picture of Steve in his new lego hide. That sounds brilliant!



Here is a photo of the indoor enclosure (gonna hit some yard sales this weekend to see if I can find either a bigger bookcase or something I can fuse to make it a bit bigger) with the sight barrier, the Lego hide, etc.. plus one of him soaking.


----------



## the_newzie (Nov 15, 2014)

Ok, seed mix arrived! Lucky for me, turns out the tortoise supply guys are here in Vegas so they came super quick. Have my seed tray planted, we'll see if my thumb has any green to it at all... Got Steve on the scale and measure mat for second week in a row, last week he was 30.8g this week he was 29.7 (not bad because last week he was weighed after a big meal and a long soak and this week I weighed him pre meal, because I want to try to get a pre meal baseline from here on out). Big thanks to @Yvonne G for advice on putting the foil cover up, Steve seems to be much more active today (I caught him having a soak in his water dish all on his own!) and temps/humidity levels way more stable.


Seed tray planted


Week 2 on the measure mat


The view from inside the new foil canopy


----------



## the_newzie (Nov 17, 2014)

Whoohoo!! Sprouts!!


----------

