# New Mom to Sonoran Desert Tortoise Hatchling Needs Help!



## Robin! (Oct 15, 2014)

I'm the lucky new mom to a 2 month old (approx) Sonoran Desert Tortoise located in Phoenix, AZ. I rescued him (my gut tells me it's a him!) from an undesirable situation and I didn't receive any care instructions. In fact, he was in a shoe box with a small piece of iceberg lettuce - which I now know is bad news. 
I LOVE my little Shimmy...But, I am reading conflicting information on the internet in regards to his diet and hibernation tactics, therefore I'm concerned. 
Currently he is in a large plastic sweater bin, shallow enough to fit under your bed but tall enough so he can't climb out. The substrate is a mix of pea gravel and golf-course sand. He has a little hallowed out coconut shell that he retreats to when he's not grazing around the box.
QUESTION: When he burrows, is he suppose to be completely covered? He doesn't have the power to shovel enough of the sand so he can hide, so he lays on top, buried as much as the sand will allow.

QUESTION: I'm reading conflicting reports on diet! Shimmy LOVES green beans, leafy spinach, bok choy, cilantro... Are they vegetarians or herbivores? I have desert landscaping -- there's only ONE type of weed I can get him to eat - is that enough? I've also read that supplements are harmful - is that true? I bought a dried supplement that contains majority of the grass/weeds that he needs - should I put that on the veggies?

QUESTION: Will he tell me if he wants to hibernate this first year? Do I have to hibernate him his first year? If so, PLEASE give me consistent advice on how to do so. I live in a house with a garage, my back yard is desert but I have 2 dogs. I can easily block access if need be, but what if it gets too cold during the winter? 

QUESTION: What does normal hatchling poop look like? Again, I'm super-paranoid and want to ensure my baby is healthy as can be! He normally produces 1 - 2 pieces of poo each day. Sorry to be gross, but should it be totally solid, or a bit soft? Can you tell if they're sick by their poop (like you can with dogs?)

Thank you for any and all help you can give me! Shimmy and I appreciate it!


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## russian/sulcata/tortoise (Oct 15, 2014)

welcome to the forum you will love it here! i have no experience with desert torts but there are many people on this forum that own them. also its not gross asking question about your torts poops, thats just part of caring for a tort!


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## wellington (Oct 15, 2014)

Hello,and Welcome. I can't help you much except for a couple things. First, do not hibernate. him, you need to have him for a year to know if he is healthy enough to survive a hibernation. Second, get rid of the sand and pea gravel. Sand causes impaction and if he were to swallow one of those tiny stones, well, that could also cause impaction. I would give him a warm water soak every day for 20-30 minutes and be sure to use a good uvb bulb, not the coil type, they have been known to cause eye problems. One item for a diet is never good. As big a variety as possible is best, however others can help you better on that then I can. Good luck.


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## Gillian M (Oct 15, 2014)

Welcome to this _wonderful _forum! I'm sorry I can't help as I need help with my tort. Good luck!


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## Yvonne G (Oct 16, 2014)

Hi Robin, and welcome to the Forum!

You need to upgrade your shoe box. A shoe box simply isn't big enough to accommodate all the "furniture" you need to put in. Buy a plastic tote and put about 4" of either cypress mulch, orchid bark or coco coir in the bottom. Pour water over it and mix it up with your hand so you end up with a moist-clear-through substrate - not soaking wet, but moist. Then bury some plants, either real or artificial. Sink a shallow plant saucer into the substrate. Place a tile or piece of broken cement to use as a feeding station, and put a couple of different hiding places in the new enclosure.

Buy two clamp light fixtures from a home improvement store. You want the kind with a ceramic base, not the plastic (Bakelite) base. Then buy a Mercury Vapor Bulb (I get mine off Amazon) and a ceramic heat emitter (CHE) to use at night.

Baby tortoises need to be kept warm...especially since he's on moist substrate. Don't allow his little enclosure to get below 80F degrees. You might want to keep the lid to the plastic tote, cut out holes for the light fixtures and keep the lid on the tote to help keep the warm air inside.

There's a very knowledgeable desert tortoise person in Bakersfield, CA - his last name always escapes me, but his first name is Don. You can find a very good care sheet for desert tortoises at http://www.donsdeserttortoises.com/1.html

May we please see pictures of your new baby?


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## Tom (Oct 16, 2014)

Hello and welcome. I house baby DTs the same as russians. They have similar diet and housing requirements.
Check these out:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

The vast majority of DT babies that die, die from chronic dehydration issues. Soak that baby daily. Give it a humid hide and damp substrate, and keep it warm.


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## tortdad (Oct 16, 2014)

Welcome 


0.0.1 Redfoot (Spike)
0.0.1 Cherryhead Redfoot (Bruce Wayne)
1.0 Sulcata (Hal Jordan)


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Oct 16, 2014)

Hello Robin welcome to the TFO from AZ have a great tort day !



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## Ciri (Oct 21, 2014)

The Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum has excellent info compiled by reptile specialist veterinarians who care for the museums desert tortoises and other reptiles:

http://www.desertmuseum.org/programs/tap_tortcare.php

http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/tortoise/documents/NativePlantsforDesertTortoises_2008.pdf

also good:

http://www.sdturtle.org/public_documents/sdtts_goodandbadgardenplants.pdf#!care-sheets/c217k

Not hibernating that your little hatchling for the first winter is a good idea. Looking for spurge and spiderling weeds, if you have them in your yard, would be good nutrition for your little one. It's essential to keep the dogs away from the tortoise hatchling as naturally the dogs will see the tortoise as food.

Good luck with your desert tortoise. Feel free to ask if you have any more questions.


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## Robin! (Oct 23, 2014)

wellington said:


> Hello,and Welcome. I can't help you much except for a couple things. First, do not hibernate. him, you need to have him for a year to know if he is healthy enough to survive a hibernation. Second, get rid of the sand and pea gravel. Sand causes impaction and if he were to swallow one of those tiny stones, well, that could also cause impaction. I would give him a warm water soak every day for 20-30 minutes and be sure to use a good uvb bulb, not the coil type, they have been known to cause eye problems. One item for a diet is never good. As big a variety as possible is best, however others can help you better on that then I can. Good luck.



Thank you for the info. Until I can get the soil substrate, I put his food in a separate dish away from where the sand is to avoid the intake of sand. I'm headed to the nursery today to add more plants/flowers to his diet. I found a small hibiscus-type of flower that he enjoys too. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions. Have a great day!


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## Robin! (Oct 23, 2014)

Yvonne G said:


> Hi Robin, and welcome to the Forum!
> 
> You need to upgrade your shoe box. A shoe box simply isn't big enough to accommodate all the "furniture" you need to put in. Buy a plastic tote and put about 4" of either cypress mulch, orchid bark or coco coir in the bottom. Pour water over it and mix it up with your hand so you end up with a moist-clear-through substrate - not soaking wet, but moist. Then bury some plants, either real or artificial. Sink a shallow plant saucer into the substrate. Place a tile or piece of broken cement to use as a feeding station, and put a couple of different hiding places in the new enclosure.
> 
> ...




Hi there - thanks for taking the time to respond. I think you mis-read my statement, when I got him he was in a shoe box. I quickly upgraded to a large plastic sweater box. I'll head to the nursery today to get the materials for the substrate. Like I said, I've read so much conflicting info on the internet - so I appreciate the info. What's up with planting artificial plants? I was just laid off from my job, unexpectedly (I just bought a house!) - so I really have to be cost-conscience. I'd rather buy plants that he'll eat. I did use bermuda grass as a substrate at first, he didn't touch it (as far as eating it). I don't have grass in my yard (I was told I didn't need to) so I was getting it from my neighbors yard (no pesticides). I also bring home various plants/flowers from my nightly walks (hibiscus, mallow, etc). Don's website is very helpful, thank you for sharing.

Lighting - once again, I guess I was misinformed because I have the UVB light with the coils. 120V / 60 HZ. Is this acceptable for now? I also have a heat lamp (bought at a reptile store) but I'm in Phoenix so I only use it night when I turn the air down low. There is a temperature / humidity gauge as well. I've attached a photo for reference.

I gave him a good soak this morning. Attached is a photo collage: top is the day I got him, and bottom was taken today (that's organic Kale, Spinach & bok choy with white calcium flakes sprinkled on top). 

He has CERTAINLY grown a lot during these last couple of months. Also attached is the lighting configuration.


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## wellington (Oct 23, 2014)

The coil bulb needs to be replaced, they have been known to cause eye problems. Also the lights need to hang straight down.


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## Tom (Oct 23, 2014)

Ciri said:


> The Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum has excellent info compiled by reptile specialist veterinarians who care for the museums desert tortoises and other reptiles:
> 
> http://www.desertmuseum.org/programs/tap_tortcare.php
> 
> ...



Those care sheets are a mix of good and bad info. I wouldn't recommend them to anyone unless you intend to point out all the bad advice offered in them and highlight the good. The plant stuff seems pretty good though.

The first care sheet says to give adult water only once or twice a week. That is not good advice. It also says to keep hatchlings in shoe box with coarse gravel at a single warm, but not warm enough temp. They will quickly die that way. I'll bet the author of that sheet has seen a lot of babies die and will tell some story about some of them just aren't meant to make it. Know how many of the ones I start my way survive? All of them.


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## Tom (Oct 23, 2014)

Robin! said:


> Lighting - once again, I guess I was misinformed because I have the UVB light with the coils. 120V / 60 HZ. Is this acceptable for now? I also have a heat lamp (bought at a reptile store) but I'm in Phoenix so I only use it night when I turn the air down low.



No. Neither of these things is acceptable. The coil bulbs can damage their eyes. Its not okay ever.

The tortoise needs a warm basking spot of around 95-100, and a cooler side to get away from the heat all day long, every day. This is how they maintain the correct body temperature. They move in and out of the heat all day, the same way they'd move in and out of the sun in the wild. Cooler at night is fine.

The best way to house them, for optimal health and survival is in the link I posted for you above. It explains all the heating and lighting stuff. When considering which advice to follow, ask them what percentage of the babies started their way survive. If its less than 100%, then please re-read and follow the stuff I posted for you. Certainly there is more than one way to do it, but all of the tortoise club and government websites I've seen are a recipe for disaster when it comes to hatchlings.


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## Ciri (Oct 23, 2014)

For hatchlings the care sheets I gave you links for don't address how often to soak the baby tortoise. A constant source of clean water in a very shallow dish is very important. I find hatchlings are in and out of the water all day. The water needs to be shallow enough that the hatchling can easily breathe while sitting in the water. (About a quarter of an inch or less is usually enough.)

While there may be differences of opinion about how warm the warm end of the plastic bin or terrarium should be, it is important that they don't get overheated. Over 95° for too long can cause brain damage. I have usually made the warm area 85 to 90°. This is worked quite well.


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## Robin! (Oct 23, 2014)

wellington said:


> The coil bulb needs to be replaced, they have been known to cause eye problems. Also the lights need to hang straight down.



Thanks. I pointed them up for the camera shot...normally they are down.


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## Robin! (Oct 23, 2014)

Tom said:


> Those care sheets are a mix of good and bad info. I wouldn't recommend them to anyone unless you intend to point out all the bad advice offered in them and highlight the good. The plant stuff seems pretty good though.
> 
> The first care sheet says to give adult water only once or twice a week. That is not good advice. It also says to keep hatchlings in shoe box with coarse gravel at a single warm, but not warm enough temp. They will quickly die that way. I'll bet the author of that sheet has seen a lot of babies die and will tell some story about some of them just aren't meant to make it. Know how many of the ones I start my way survive? All of them.




Thank you. It's been a bit frustrating because as you can see, there is so much mis-information out there. I'm glad I joined this forum so I can get accurate information. He does have a shallow dish for the waterings, but I haven't been forcing the soakings on him. I do notice that he's done it himself. But I will make sure he is soaked every day! Today he only stayed in the water long for about 5 minutes. I didn't want to force him to stay...or am I suppose to?


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## Tom (Oct 23, 2014)

Robin! said:


> Thank you. It's been a bit frustrating because as you can see, there is so much mis-information out there. I'm glad I joined this forum so I can get accurate information. He does have a shallow dish for the waterings, but I haven't been forcing the soakings on him. I do notice that he's done it himself. But I will make sure he is soaked every day! Today he only stayed in the water long for about 5 minutes. I didn't want to force him to stay...or am I suppose to?



Soaking the baby means you put him in a shallow, tall sided, opaque tub of water. The water should be warm, but not hot. It only needs to come about halfway up the shell. Its good to do this every day for at least a couple of months and then you can start occasionally skipping days after that. You should do this in a warm area, so it doesn't cool too quickly, and you should be ready to change the water as many times as he soils it. I prefer to let them soak for 20-30 minutes a day, and I prefer to do it after the days sunning session.


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## Tom (Oct 23, 2014)

Ciri said:


> While there may be differences of opinion about how warm the warm end of the plastic bin or terrarium should be, it is important that they don't get overheated. Over 95° for too long can cause brain damage. I have usually made the warm area 85 to 90°. This is worked quite well.



Ciri, lets talk about this statement. This contradicts what I've seen in 100s of my own tortoises of all ages, including hatchlings. It also contradicts what several vets that I know who actually keep tortoises have seen. Quite the contrary to what you said, I find most of my tortoises like to keep their core temp nearly the same as ours. We do it ourselves with internal mechanisms, while they need to move in and out of the sun (or heated area) to do it. I've seen this stated in reptile textbooks too. I frequently take the carapace temps of my sunning tortoises at different times of the year and its often over 100. Of course this is surface temp and I'm sure they got their carapace that warm while trying to warm up the core, but many tortoises live outside in areas where daily highs top 100 and they don't suffer brain damage. When its over 100 for an outside tortoise, their core temp is over 100. If they have misters or a pool, they might be cooler, but most of them just go sit in the shade. Even in the shade, an ectotherm is going to reach the same temp as the ambient air which might exceed 110 for some areas.

The recommendation for a 100 degree basking area is accompanied by a recommendation that the other side of the enclosure should be cooler. This will allow the tortoise to keep its core temperature where ever it wants it between the 100 degree basking spot and the 75 degree cooler side. No one is recommending the entire enclosure be kept at 95+ degrees.

So that I may learn from you, how many hatchling DTs have you raised with a 85-90 degree basking area? Did they also have an outdoor sunning area where they could warm up in the sun for at least some of that time, or were they raised strictly indoors? Did all of them survive? Grow well? I ask because that seems a little too low to me, and I want to know how well they did for you with that temp range. Did you find they sat under the bulb most of the day?


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## Robin! (Oct 23, 2014)

Now I am really concerned because it sounds like I'm not doing anything right, and I'm kind of freaking out. Since the info I've been following prior to joining the forum has taken me down the wrong path - may I ask your opinion on how to accurately identify if my baby is sick? I've been conducting research via the Internet, but the information is quite general. 

Would you mind telling me what a healthy hatchling's droppings should look like? Anything else that I need to be aware of while I make the transition to the specifications that y'all have provided above?


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## Tom (Oct 23, 2014)

Lack of appetite, lethargy, eyes that don't want to open or are swollen, are all bad signs. Not coming out to eat or bask, is all bad news. Noises while breathing or excessive "yawning" can be bad signs too.

The poops should be little brownish or greenish tootsie rolls, but this will have a lot to do with diet too.


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## Robin! (Oct 23, 2014)

Tom said:


> Lack of appetite, lethargy, eyes that don't want to open or are swollen, are all bad signs. Not coming out to eat or bask, is all bad news. Noises while breathing or excessive "yawning" can be bad signs too.
> 
> The poops should be little brownish or greenish tootsie rolls, but this will have a lot to do with diet too.




Many thanks, Tom. Definitely no lack of appetite, yawning only when he wakes, very active, loves to bask and his poops fit your description - thankfully. Lots of really useful info in this forum.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Oct 23, 2014)

Why don't you send us a pict of the tort in his enclosure . So we can see and help from there . It's hard to help without a pict . 


Sent from my iPhone using TortForum


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## Tom (Oct 23, 2014)

There is so much tortoise misinformation out in the world. I used to spread the wrong info too before I learned better. I don't know how a new person is supposed to figure out who to listen to. Some people make a very convincing argument. It is based on a lot of theories and assumptions that just don't hold up in the real world in our enclosures. There are many organizations that advise on how to care for DTs. At their shows they will have a booth showing all the bladder and kidney stones that have been removed from the DTs housed and cared for the way they say to care for them. You never see one of those stones come out of a well hydrated tortoise.

I could just go on and on...

I wish you the best of luck, and please don't hesitate to ask lots of questions and really grill us on any of our assertions. I don't want you to just take my word for it. Take me to task and make me prove it to you. Make me show you why I think what I think about what is best, or worst, for our tortoises.


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## Robin! (Oct 23, 2014)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> Why don't you send us a pict of the tort in his enclosure . So we can see and help from there . It's hard to help without a pict .
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using TortForum




...I'm afraid my amateurism is going to be judged, but you're probably right. I already know his substrate is wrong


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Oct 23, 2014)

See all we want to do is help we all started out many years ago ( I started 15 years ago ) we are not here to judge just help the tort ! Here is my box turtle about to be eaten by two spiders




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## Tom (Oct 23, 2014)

Robin! said:


> ...I'm afraid my amateurism is going to be judged, but you're probably right. I already know his substrate is wrong



Oh good heavens. You _will_ get all sorts of comments. That is true. But all of it is coming from good intentions and wanting to help you and your tortoise. We are mostly good people here, and attacks or insults are not allowed or tolerated, even by the membership and certainly not by the moderator staff. Post your pic and get ready for some supportive constructive criticism and you might even get some compliments too.


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## Ciri (Oct 24, 2014)

Tom said:


> Ciri, lets talk about this statement. This contradicts what I've seen in 100s of my own tortoises of all ages, including hatchlings. It also contradicts what several vets that I know who actually keep tortoises have seen. Quite the contrary to what you said, I find most of my tortoises like to keep their core temp nearly the same as ours. We do it ourselves with internal mechanisms, while they need to move in and out of the sun (or heated area) to do it. I've seen this stated in reptile textbooks too. I frequently take the carapace temps of my sunning tortoises at different times of the year and its often over 100. Of course this is surface temp and I'm sure they got their carapace that warm while trying to warm up the core, but many tortoises live outside in areas where daily highs top 100 and they don't suffer brain damage. When its over 100 for an outside tortoise, their core temp is over 100. If they have misters or a pool, they might be cooler, but most of them just go sit in the shade. Even in the shade, an ectotherm is going to reach the same temp as the ambient air which might exceed 110 for some areas.
> 
> The recommendation for a 100 degree basking area is accompanied by a recommendation that the other side of the enclosure should be cooler. This will allow the tortoise to keep its core temperature where ever it wants it between the 100 degree basking spot and the 75 degree cooler side. No one is recommending the entire enclosure be kept at 95+ degrees.
> 
> So that I may learn from you, how many hatchling DTs have you raised with a 85-90 degree basking area? Did they also have an outdoor sunning area where they could warm up in the sun for at least some of that time, or were they raised strictly indoors? Did all of them survive? Grow well? I ask because that seems a little too low to me, and I want to know how well they did for you with that temp range. Did you find they sat under the bulb most of the day?



I have cared for a few DT hatchlings in this way. All got outdoor time as well, as much as possible, as keeping them indoors is only as a last resort when it's too cold. The best UVA/UVB lights cannot make up for not getting direct sunlight needed for them to absorb the calcium in their diet. And yes, all are alive and well! I have done this under the direction of a world-renowned reptile veterinarian, Dr. James Jarchow. He is co-author of the first care sheet in my list of links I posted for Robin:

http://www.desertmuseum.org/programs/tap_tortcare.php

http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/tortoise/documents/NativePlantsforDesertTortoises_2008.pdf

also good:

http://www.sdturtle.org/public_documents/sdtts_goodandbadgardenplants.pdf#!care-sheets/c217k

Dr Jarchow is a 1971 graduate of The Ohio State University School of Veterinary Medicine. In 1972 he moved to Tucson, closer to the native desert reptile species in which he is interested. Dr Jarchow is a consulting veterinarian for the Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum and Reid Park Zoo. He is also an Adjunct Associate Professor in the Veterinary Science Department of the University of Arizona, participating in research projects focusing on reptiles and amphibians. Dr. Jarchow has served on the Board of Directors of the Tucson Herpetologial Society.

This is all perfectly valid information on these care sheets, even if it hasn't been your personal experience. Dr.Jarchow is an excellent veterinarian for reptiles, and has cared for the desert tortoises at the Arizona Sonora Desert Museum for 30-40 years. He is in high demand in Tucson due to his excellent knowledge and medical care of desert tortoises as well as other reptiles. He has done a lot to save the desert tortoise in Arizona. In addition, he is so highly in demand this time of year for pre-hibernation checkups, that it's hard to get an appointment. He obviously has had great success carrying for desert tortoises. No veterinarian has shown themselves to be more knowledgeable of desert tortoises.

NONE of the information I have posted has been "bad information" as you have stated. I find your attitude disrespectful and would appreciate it if in the future you could simply communicate your difference of opinion rather than putting other people down. Our experiences are not always going to be identical to one another, even when outcomes are very positive.


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## Ciri (Oct 24, 2014)

Robin, you might find a local group helpful:

National Turtle and Tortoise Society, Inc.
(602) 275-6887
P.O. Box 66935, Phoenix, AZ 85082

http://www.phoenixherp.com

There are obviously a lot of differences of opinion about how to care for desert tortoises. I know it must be hard to sort out who is giving you the best information. My veterinarian in Tucson is excellent – Dr. James Jarchow.. I believe his office could give you the name of a good reptile veterinarian in Phoenix in case you need one. I've always found it's better to prepare ahead rather than wait until something happens. I always take mine in twice a year for checkups which is worked out really well to avoid bad (and more costly) infections. Also, a reptile veterinarian who is looking at your tortoise, considering the climate you live in, will be better able to give you information and answer questions as to how your precious tortoise should be cared for. I know this doesn't come at the best time since you just bought a house and lost your job! I hope things are going better on that front. You obviously care a lot about this little one, and that will go a long ways towards insuring that he/she is well cared for. Best wishes to you.


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## Ciri (Oct 24, 2014)

Tom said:


> but many tortoises live outside in areas where daily highs top 100 and they don't suffer brain damage. When its over 100 for an outside tortoise, their core temp is over 100.



Here in Arizona desert tortoises are not active during the heat of the day when temperatures reach 100. Like other reptiles here in the desert they hide out when it's really hot. They often stay in their burrow during that time. They are active early and late in the day when it is not nearly so hot. 

Quote below from the Arizona game and Fish website page on desert tortoise care:
"The shelter serves an important function in protecting the tortoise from the extreme heat and dryness of the summer, and providing a place to hibernate in the winter. It is important that you build a shelter that is well-insulated. Insulation can be provided by adding soil to the top, sides and bottom of the shelter. In the wild, desert tortoises prefer snug shelter, and they like to wedge themselves into a corner near the back; don’t make the shelter too roomy. 

When building the shelter, keep in mind that orientation (which cardinal direction the burrow entrance is facing) affects burrow temperature. North and northeast facing shelters tend to be cooler, and provide a good refuge from summer heat. Optimal temperature range for the shelter is 68-85°F during the summer, and between 50-68°F in the winter. _Shelter temperatures should always be kept below 90°F because a tortoise can overheat and suffer brain damage._"


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## ascott (Oct 24, 2014)

Cori...there is this awesome feature on the forum called "ignore"...you can utilize it on any rude, disrespectful, pompous, ego riddled Ahole member you like...it sure does make the visit to the forum much more pleasant. Also, it allows you to ignore the trash talk that wastes so much time by those who simply want to convince others that they are as awesome as THEY think they are...you have shared some good info here...


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## ascott (Oct 24, 2014)

Ciri ..apology for my phone auto correcting your name to Cori ...


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## Ciri (Oct 24, 2014)

ascott said:


> Cori...there is this awesome feature on the forum called "ignore"...you can utilize it on any rude, disrespectful, pompous, ego riddled Ahole member you like...it sure does make the visit to the forum much more pleasant. Also, it allows you to ignore the trash talk that wastes so much time by those who simply want to convince others that they are as awesome as THEY think they are...you have shared some good info here...



Angela, Thank you so very much for your comment. I will look for the ignore feature. I do just want to share good info that could help others, and feel very fortunate to have such an exceptional reptile veterinarian. When I have a little one to take to him I sometimes even refer to the vet as the turtle or tortoise pediatrician!


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## Tom (Oct 24, 2014)

Ciri said:


> NONE of the information I have posted has been "bad information" as you have stated. I find your attitude disrespectful and would appreciate it if in the future you could simply communicate your difference of opinion rather than putting other people down. Our experiences are not always going to be identical to one another, even when outcomes are very positive.



Telling people to water a tortoise only twice a week in a hot dry climate in summer and let the water dry up in between waterings IS bad information. Telling people that their tortoise is going to get brain damage if it goes over 95 degrees is completely false and also bad information.

I have no idea why you are lashing out in this way. Nothing I said was disrespectful and there was no attitude involved at all. Further, I put no one down and was inquiring about how often you had done what you were recommending and how well it worked for you. How could it be a put down, when I was trying to LEARN from your experience? Of course our experiences are not going to be identical. That is why I was asking about your experience.

I don't know your Dr. and have never heard of him, so can't comment one way or the other, but many vets are notorious for giving terrible tortoise advice and even killing them with their "treatment". If you have found a good one, that is great.

I think you have over-reacted here and possibly misunderstood the tone of my post.


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## Tom (Oct 24, 2014)

ascott said:


> Cori...there is this awesome feature on the forum called "ignore"...you can utilize it on any rude, disrespectful, pompous, ego riddled Ahole member you like...it sure does make the visit to the forum much more pleasant. Also, it allows you to ignore the trash talk that wastes so much time by those who simply want to convince others that they are as awesome as THEY think they are...you have shared some good info here...



My aren't we talented at insulting those we don't like without actually insulting them. Some people set a great example of the pot calling the kettle black. At least my advice is based on actual experience with the species in question vs. something made up out of thin air and emotion about how bad the human race is, when I've never even laid a hand on the species in question.


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## leigti (Oct 24, 2014)

Robin! said:


> ...I'm afraid my amateurism is going to be judged, but you're probably right. I already know his substrate is wrong


 Hello, welcome to the forum.your tortoise is absolutely adorable  he's so tiny! I have a Russian tortoise and a box turtle. I have done a lot I mean a lot of research on the Internet and to books. And I can confidently say that this forum has the best information out there.I know it is scary to put pictures out there just waiting for people to rip them apart, but 99% of the time here people are great and they just want to give you helpful information.it takes time to get it "right" but you'll get there.sometimes you will get faster responses if you start a new thread in the specific sections, lighting, diet, etc. And also in the species specific sections. it's okay to have a bunch of threads going at the same time.and don't worry about the occasional bickering amongst members, it's just passionate people wanting the best for the tortoise. Read all the information research it some more here on the forum, and then make your own decision. I found the search option to be very helpful.there are numerous threads on just about every topic you can think of.


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## Ciri (Oct 25, 2014)

From the California turtle and tortoise club website:

"IMPORTANT: Desert tortoise hatchlings spend 95% of their lives underground in burrows with temps of 70's-80's F and excessive time at 95°F+ can "cook" them. Keeping them unnaturally under excessive dry heat conditions is why they are often seen soaking in the water dishes in aquariums-often for hours at a time - which is not natural, healthy behavior but rather an attempt to keep hydrated and save their own lives. This dehydration, possible with excessive heat, heat pads and heat rocks, aquariums, being kept up during winter in gas heated houses, air conditioning, lack of the burrow micro-climate, etc., is believed by many keepers and veterinarians to be the main root cause of bladder stones, as well as possibly implicated in "pyramiding" and soft/sunken in shells and swollen eyes."

http://www.tortoise.org/general/descare.html

So many websites, whose information was put together by reptile specialist veterinarians as well as knowledgeable hobbyists, say the same thing: excessive heat is dangerous.

Interestingly, it's often time the individual who accuses someone else of of giving and bad information, is the one who is doing it himself.


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## Tom (Oct 25, 2014)

Ciri said:


> From the California turtle and tortoise club website:
> 
> "IMPORTANT: Desert tortoise hatchlings spend 95% of their lives underground in burrows with temps of 70's-80's F and excessive time at 95°F+ can "cook" them. Keeping them unnaturally under excessive dry heat conditions is why they are often seen soaking in the water dishes in aquariums-often for hours at a time - which is not natural, healthy behavior but rather an attempt to keep hydrated and save their own lives. This dehydration, possible with excessive heat, heat pads and heat rocks, aquariums, being kept up during winter in gas heated houses, air conditioning, lack of the burrow micro-climate, etc., is believed by many keepers and veterinarians to be the main root cause of bladder stones, as well as possibly implicated in "pyramiding" and soft/sunken in shells and swollen eyes."
> 
> ...




I'm not saying excessive heat is not dangerous. I'm also a _huge_ advocate of burrows and underground housing which many of my posts and threads demonstrate. I'm am saying that a lot of tortoises, of this species and other species too, sit above ground all day, either by choice or by keeper error, with temps above 95 and their brains do not get damaged. Should they be offered a proper burrow or retreat? Yes. Absolutely. Offering a basking area of 95-100 is not going to cause brain damage to any tortoise of any species, especially if there is a cooler side to the indoor enclosure. I advocate the things I advocate based on real world experience and decades of observing common mistakes. Seldom does any new keeper ever keep an indoor housed DT too warm. Quite the contrary, they almost unanimously don't keep them warm enough. I have watched so many die because the people didn't care for them properly, while all of mine survive and thrive, and so do the ones of the people who have followed my advice on the matter.

Keep in mind that I also used to follow the advice of these hallowed "experts" you revere. I used to back them and argue with people about their assertions just as you are now. Then I learned that they are just people and sometimes they are wrong. When following all the expert advice of the day led to failure after failure after failure, I began to try to understand what was going wrong. Luckily, I have been able to figure some of it out, apply it, and share the info with others who have been able to also successfully apply it. It is a mistake for you to close your mind because of what someone who seems important says in a care sheet. Go back and read any sulcata book in existence and you will see a litany of mis-information and incorrect assumptions. I have found all the care sheets for DT from the government agencies and Tortoise clubs to be even worse. I have found, tried and tested better ways to do things, and I'm attempting to share what I've learned here.

The root cause of bladder and kidneys stones is the dehydration that is usually recommended by the above mentioned folks. Yes the indoor enclosures are desiccating. That why I say to offer a humid hide that simulates what they'd get from a wild burrow. That is why I advocate daily soaks for hatchlings to compensate for our overly dry enclosures, both indoors and out. That is why I recommend damp substrates indoors, to compensate for the desiccating effects of the necessary heating equipment and house heaters and air conditioners. The damp substrate offers moderate humidity in an indoor enclosure that would other wise have extremely low humidity. Wanna make that argument that they don't have these things in the wild? Guess what. Somewhere between 300 and 3000 babies die for every one that makes it to adult hood out in the wild. Is that what you'd like to advocate simulating? All of the babies I raise my way survive to adulthood. All of them. Ask Yvonne, or any other DT rescuer what percentage of DT babies typically survive their first year. Compare that to my results, and then lets have a meaningful conversation.

This is not about me, or how great you and Ascott think I think I am. If you knew me and had met me, you'd know that is not the case. *THIS IS ABOUT THE TORTOISES AND DOING OUR VERY BEST TO KEEP THEM ALIVE AND HEALTHY.* Nothing more. This is why I point out the shortcomings of the conventional knowledge that your "experts" purport, and offer what I know what works better in its place. YOU are the one making this into some sort of personality clash. I want to talk about the best way to keep a DT baby alive and healthy, and _some_ of the info in the links you posted is counter to that goal.

So back to the advice we are going to this poster: Yes. Keeping the entire enclosure at 100+ all the time would be bad. Offering a 100 degree warm spot, to simulate the sun outside, while offering a cooler side to move to when the tortoise feels warm enough, is not going to fry your baby's brain. Likewise if your tortoise happens to be outdoors and above ground on a summer day that is 96 degrees or hotter, he won't suffer instantaneous automatic brain damage.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 25, 2014)

Ciri said:


> So many websites, whose information was put together by reptile specialist veterinarians as well as knowledgeable hobbyists, say the same thing: excessive heat is dangerous.



Quite a bit of what you pull up off the 'net or read in books is old and outdated material. The printed page, once it is purchased and sitting on your shelf, never changes, even though the practices shown on the page have changed. I'd be willing to bet that your reptile specialists and veterinarians have long since changed their ideas on tortoise-keeping, and yet their works still show the old fashioned way.

Yes, baby tortoises spend a lot of time underground where the temperature is cooler. But that is a wild baby tortoise. In captivity a baby tortoise lives in some sort of container and we have to do the best we can to provide him with the moisture he needs so the lights don't dissicate him.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 25, 2014)

Robin: Please don't allow a difference of opinion between members confuse you. There really are different ways of caring for tortoises. Tom lives in a very dry desert-like area of California while Ciri is talking about keeping a tortoise in Arizona. Yes, it's dry and desert-like too, but quite different from California. I live in the Central Valley of California and what I have to do to achieve the correct temperatures and humidity for my babies is different from what Tom or Ciri has to do.

So, try to learn what the babies need to be healthy and achieve that any way you can. Read everyone's responses and pick and choose what you think will work best for you and your tortoises.


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## Ciri (Oct 25, 2014)

Yvonne G said:


> Quite a bit of what you pull up off the 'net or read in books is old and outdated material. The printed page, once it is purchased and sitting on your shelf, never changes, even though the practices shown on the page have changed. I'd be willing to bet that your reptile specialists and veterinarians have long since changed their ideas on tortoise-keeping, and yet their works still show the old fashioned way.
> 
> Yes, baby tortoises spend a lot of time underground where the temperature is cooler. But that is a wild baby tortoise. In captivity a baby tortoise lives in some sort of container and we have to do the best we can to provide him with the moisture he needs so the lights don't dissicate him.



Yvonne, I'm confused. None of the information I have put up was from an old printed book.
The information I have put up in the way of website links is current. If you look at the Arizona Sonora Desert Museum care sheet for desert tortoises you will see at the bottom that it is dated for this year. This is information that is based on reptile specialist veterinarians with a lot of experience caring for desert tortoises. I don't always agree with everything, and tweak any care sheet info to fit what I'm more comfortable with. 
That's why I posted earlier:
For hatchlings the care sheets I gave you links for don't address how often to soak the baby tortoise. A constant source of clean water in a very shallow dish is very important. I find hatchlings are in and out of the water all day. The water needs to be shallow enough that the hatchling can easily breathe while sitting in the water. (About a quarter of an inch or less is usually enough.)

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make in the second paragraph. I had pointed out that excessive heat can be dangerous. So I guess you're agreeing with me there?

Personally, I prefer to offer more water rather than less. I find that there's a limit to how much an adult desert tortoise will drink or soak regardless of what I do. I prefer leaving a clean water dish which is sanitized daily available to the desert tortoise whether hatchling or adult. It just makes me more comfortable. However, watching my adult desert tortoise's behavior I realize that it was not necessary. But my tendency is to want to go above and beyond. So I would never consider it to be bad information when what is needed for the tortoise is explained in detail. We can always do more than what's required. And I do.


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## Tom (Oct 25, 2014)

Ciri said:


> I'm not sure what point you're trying to make in the second paragraph. I had pointed out that excessive heat can be dangerous. So I guess you're agreeing with me there?
> 
> Personally, I prefer to offer more water rather than less. I find that there's a limit to how much an adult desert tortoise will drink or soak regardless of what I do. I prefer leaving a clean water dish which is sanitized daily available to the desert tortoise whether hatchling or adult. It just makes me more comfortable. However, watching my adult desert tortoise's behavior I realize that it was not necessary. But my tendency is to want to go above and beyond. So I would never consider it to be bad information when what is needed for the tortoise is explained in detail. We can always do more than what's required. And I do.



I can't speak for Yvonne, but _*I*_ agree that excessive heat can be dangerous. We seem to be disagreeing about what is excessive and how best to apply it.

And I completely agree with everything you said in the second quoted paragraph above. I do the same things you do in regards to this topic, and we are both disagreeing with what most DT care sheets advocate, including the ones you linked. Why are we arguing? Why the personal attacks and hostility?


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## Hermes (Oct 25, 2014)

This thread is very aggressive lol everyone should just take a breath and think about things, I'm new here and I'm only an expert at being an amateur, but the reason the original person posted here was because she needs help, and while everyone here was trying to help, turning this thread into a sparing match is just going to make the OP "chose a side" and it shouldn't be about that, besides personal attacks, passive aggressive post and calling people "THEY" while pretending to be talking about someone else... What is this middle school?? 
With danger of becoming a cliche, "can't we all just get along?"


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## Ciri (Oct 25, 2014)

Tom said:


> I can't speak for Yvonne, but _*I*_ agree that excessive heat can be dangerous. We seem to be disagreeing about what is excessive and how best to apply it.
> 
> And I completely agree with everything you said in the second quoted paragraph above. I do the same things you do in regards to this topic, and we are both disagreeing with what most DT care sheets advocate, including the ones you linked. Why are we arguing? Why the personal attacks and hostility?



Tom, things went south when you accused me of giving Robin "bad information". And you backed it up by saying how there's a lot of bad information on the Internet. That was very demeaning. I have felt bullied by you. When I share information with another member who is in need of help and you see something you want to comment on, I would appreciate it if you could refrain from telling them that I have given them "bad information" and instead would be happy to hear about any particular item you disagree with. We can have a discourse. But it just needs to be respectful. If need be, and we do differ on a major point, you know we can just agree to disagree. It doesn't have to mean that either one of us is doing something wrong by stating our opinion.

It's nice we do agree about how best to soak desert tortoise hatchlings. I did post that shortly after sending Robin the care sheet links. I do have a friend with desert tortoises (10 months old) who is doing the soaking as described in the care sheet. She has not had any problem. I, of course, would still prefer her that she do it my way, and leave out water for them every day. But I can't control what other people do, and her outcome so far has been very positive.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 25, 2014)

I'm stepping in as moderator here. From this point on we will only talk about the OP's original questions:

"QUESTION: When he burrows, is he suppose to be completely covered? He doesn't have the power to shovel enough of the sand so he can hide, so he lays on top, buried as much as the sand will allow.

QUESTION: I'm reading conflicting reports on diet! Shimmy LOVES green beans, leafy spinach, bok choy, cilantro... Are they vegetarians or herbivores? I have desert landscaping -- there's only ONE type of weed I can get him to eat - is that enough? I've also read that supplements are harmful - is that true? I bought a dried supplement that contains majority of the grass/weeds that he needs - should I put that on the veggies?

QUESTION: Will he tell me if he wants to hibernate this first year? Do I have to hibernate him his first year? If so, PLEASE give me consistent advice on how to do so. I live in a house with a garage, my back yard is desert but I have 2 dogs. I can easily block access if need be, but what if it gets too cold during the winter? 

QUESTION: What does normal hatchling poop look like? Again, I'm super-paranoid and want to ensure my baby is healthy as can be! He normally produces 1 - 2 pieces of poo each day. Sorry to be gross, but should it be totally solid, or a bit soft? Can you tell if they're sick by their poop (like you can with dogs?)"


Any other posts will be removed from the thread.


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## Ciri (Oct 25, 2014)

Yvonne G said:


> I'm stepping in as moderator here. From this point on we will only talk about the OP's original questions:
> 
> "QUESTION: When he burrows, is he suppose to be completely covered? He doesn't have the power to shovel enough of the sand so he can hide, so he lays on top, buried as much as the sand will allow.
> 
> ...



Thank you.
When he buries himself in the soil he does not need to be entirely covered by the soil. Just getting partway into the dirt can help them feel more comfortable in a little space just their size.


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## Tom (Oct 25, 2014)

Yvonne G said:


> "QUESTION: When he burrows, is he suppose to be completely covered? He doesn't have the power to shovel enough of the sand so he can hide, so he lays on top, buried as much as the sand will allow.
> 
> QUESTION: I'm reading conflicting reports on diet! Shimmy LOVES green beans, leafy spinach, bok choy, cilantro... Are they vegetarians or herbivores? I have desert landscaping -- there's only ONE type of weed I can get him to eat - is that enough? I've also read that supplements are harmful - is that true? I bought a dried supplement that contains majority of the grass/weeds that he needs - should I put that on the veggies?
> 
> ...



1. Digging down into the substrate for cover is not the same as digging a burrow to live in. They really can't dig a burrow in dry sand because it won't hold a shape. Indoors I use humid hides to simulate a burrow. I use black plastic dishwashing tubs from Walmart. I flip it up side down, cut out a door hole just big enough for the tortoise and dampen the substrate under it. Outdoors you can make them a burrow to escape the sun and heat any number of ways. I typically dig a hole bury a half flower pot or something similar, and then pile dirt high on top of it for more insulation. I face the entrance North and make sure that rain won't run into them. I make them smaller for babies and progressively larger as they grow. Here is an idea of what can be done for older, bigger ones. The one in this thread was made for a tropical species that does no hibernate, so you can disregard all the heating and electrical info. I built identical ones with no heat for other hibernating species and they work extremely well.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/daisys-new-enclosure.28662/

2. Diet: Tortoise eat what they are used to eating. New foods usually have to be introduced in small amounts, mixed in with other favorite foods. This requires much time and patience, but the reward is a tortoise that will eat anything and be healthier for it. The best foods are certain weeds, leaves and grasses. Supplements are not harmful if used correctly. In fact they are quite good for them. I suggest a tiny pinch of calcium powder twice a week and a reptile vitamin once a week. Always good to leave a cuttle bone lying around too. They might not touch it for months, but its good to have it around in case they need it. Here are some food suggestions:
Mulberry leaves
Grape vine leaves
Hibiscus leaves
African hibiscus leaves
Blue hibiscus leaves
Rose of Sharon leaves
Rose leaves
Geraniums
Gazanias
Lavatera
Pansies
Petunias
Hostas
Honeysuckle
Cape honeysuckle
Leaves and blooms from any squash plant, like pumpkin, cucumber, summer squash, etc...
Young spineless opuntia cactus pads

Weeds: 
There are soooooooo many...
Dandelion
Mallow
Filaree
Smooth Sow thistle
Prickly Sow thistle
Milk thistle
Goat head weed
Cats ear
Nettles
Trefoil
Wild onion
Wild mustard
Wild Garlic
Clovers
Broadleaf plantain
Narrow leaf plantain
Chick weed
Hawksbit
Hensbit
Hawksbeard

Other good stuff:
"Testudo Seed Mix" from http://www.tortoisesupply.com/SeedMixes
Pasture mixes or other seeds from http://www.groworganic.com/seeds.html
Homegrown alfalfa
Mazuri Tortoise Chow
ZooMed Grassland Tortoise Food

3. Hibernation is a controversial subject. Opinions swing wildly in both direction. Whatever you decide, I recommend it not be done outside, unless you have and underground structure like the one in my linked thread above. So many of them die outside when left to the whims of mother nature in a typical backyard. If you do want to do it, do it inside in a safe, cold place. My opinion is that species that would hibernate in the wild should be safely hibernated in captivity too. It has been demonstrated that these species do not _have_ to hibernate. They can survive without it. Whether or not it is better for them, or what the risks of hibernating or not hibernating are, will be debated forever.

4. The consistency and color of poop will vary with the diet, housing strategy, level of hydration, etc... Firm, dark, mini tootsie rolls are a good sign. Its normal for them to be a little looser when grocery store foods are fed.


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## bouaboua (Oct 25, 2014)

Hello and for a very late Welcome. Good to have you here.


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## Robin! (Nov 7, 2014)

Thank you ALL for your input AND opinions! I appreciate the time you took to help me out and I'm so relieved that I've found this forum. I had to drop off for a while due to losing a family member, but I am back and my baby Shimmy is still doing great. I was lucky enough to find someone who has experience caring for hatchlings. 
She had a variety of flowers and leaves for him - and he loved them. So now he is getting a variety of flowers, leaves, kale and the occasional green bean for a snack. 
Today I am going to change his substrate and plant native things for him to graze on. I'll use the care sheets provided - thank you!

My only question as of right now (that I can think of) - is his burrowing. He has outgrown his coconut where he goes to sleep and attempt to burrow so I have to help him in & out - so I'm changing his 'bedroom' to accommodate his quickly-growing size. What is the ideal situation for him to burrow - what kind of structure should I build?

His current home is a plastic extra-large under-bed storage bin/box. I know he needs a place to 'sleep', but will he want to burrow elsewhere?

THANK YOU!! And please, life is toooooo precious and short to be bickering over the small stuff - trust me, I just had a jarring reminder myself.

Have a great day!


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## Robin! (Nov 7, 2014)

Yvonne G said:


> Quite a bit of what you pull up off the 'net or read in books is old and outdated material. The printed page, once it is purchased and sitting on your shelf, never changes, even though the practices shown on the page have changed. I'd be willing to bet that your reptile specialists and veterinarians have long since changed their ideas on tortoise-keeping, and yet their works still show the old fashioned way.
> 
> Yes, baby tortoises spend a lot of time underground where the temperature is cooler. But that is a wild baby tortoise. In captivity a baby tortoise lives in some sort of container and we have to do the best we can to provide him with the moisture he needs so the lights don't dissicate him.



Thank you so much for the helpful info!


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## Robin! (Nov 7, 2014)

Tom said:


> I'm not saying excessive heat is not dangerous. I'm also a _huge_ advocate of burrows and underground housing which many of my posts and threads demonstrate. I'm am saying that a lot of tortoises, of this species and other species too, sit above ground all day, either by choice or by keeper error, with temps above 95 and their brains do not get damaged. Should they be offered a proper burrow or retreat? Yes. Absolutely. Offering a basking area of 95-100 is not going to cause brain damage to any tortoise of any species, especially if there is a cooler side to the indoor enclosure. I advocate the things I advocate based on real world experience and decades of observing common mistakes. Seldom does any new keeper ever keep an indoor housed DT too warm. Quite the contrary, they almost unanimously don't keep them warm enough. I have watched so many die because the people didn't care for them properly, while all of mine survive and thrive, and so do the ones of the people who have followed my advice on the matter.
> 
> Keep in mind that I also used to follow the advice of these hallowed "experts" you revere. I used to back them and argue with people about their assertions just as you are now. Then I learned that they are just people and sometimes they are wrong. When following all the expert advice of the day led to failure after failure after failure, I began to try to understand what was going wrong. Luckily, I have been able to figure some of it out, apply it, and share the info with others who have been able to also successfully apply it. It is a mistake for you to close your mind because of what someone who seems important says in a care sheet. Go back and read any sulcata book in existence and you will see a litany of mis-information and incorrect assumptions. I have found all the care sheets for DT from the government agencies and Tortoise clubs to be even worse. I have found, tried and tested better ways to do things, and I'm attempting to share what I've learned here.
> 
> ...




I admire your passion for these sweet creatures. Thank you for all of your guidance thus far - I'll be reporting back later once I get all my supplies.


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## Robin! (Nov 7, 2014)

Hermes said:


> This thread is very aggressive lol everyone should just take a breath and think about things, I'm new here and I'm only an expert at being an amateur, but the reason the original person posted here was because she needs help, and while everyone here was trying to help, turning this thread into a sparing match is just going to make the OP "chose a side" and it shouldn't be about that, besides personal attacks, passive aggressive post and calling people "THEY" while pretending to be talking about someone else... What is this middle school??
> With danger of becoming a cliche, "can't we all just get along?"



Thanks for havin' my back and for posting your kind thoughts!


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## Robin! (Nov 7, 2014)

bouaboua said:


> Hello and for a very late Welcome. Good to have you here.




THANK YOU! I'm excited to share my journey with Shimmy with all of y'all!


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## Hermes (Nov 7, 2014)

Robin! said:


> My only question as of right now (that I can think of) - is his burrowing. He has outgrown his coconut where he goes to sleep and attempt to burrow so I have to help him in & out - so I'm changing his 'bedroom' to accommodate his quickly-growing size. What is the ideal situation for him to burrow - what kind of structure should I build?
> 
> His current home is a plastic extra-large under-bed storage bin/box. I know he needs a place to 'sleep', but will he want to burrow elsewhere?
> 
> ...



Lots of people here use plastic shoe boxes turned over and buried a bit in the substrate and filled with humid substrate, I personally already had a fake rock cave that I had from a lizard that is too big for it now but when Turbo outgrows the entrance to the cave I'll just use a plastic shoe box from Walmart too.


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## Hermes (Nov 7, 2014)




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## the_newzie (Nov 7, 2014)

Welcome from NV! Good luck with your little guy/girl!!! I just got one myself (in the beginning of summer) and thanks to this forum, I now know 10,000% more than I did when I started (unfortunately, I'm pretty sure I still have 1,000,000,000,000% more to go)!


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## Robin! (Nov 7, 2014)

Hermes said:


> View attachment 103302
> View attachment 103303
> View attachment 103304



Wow! Compared to others I've seen, this is like the Taj Majal of terrariums - nice work! I hope to one day have something similar for Shimmy! Where exactly is that located within your residence, if you don't mind me asking? What's with the exotic markings??


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## Robin! (Nov 7, 2014)

OK y'all - I got new substrate so I need your guidance please! I admire the passion that has been so evident in this thread - but we all need to remember that parents have different ways of raising kids - so we're gonna have different opinions on how to raise our torts...it's human nature. I appreciate ALL input...keep it comin'! (I didn't realize they had such a low survival rate!!!!!!!!)

Shimmy is in a 24"x24" plastic sweater bin, 6" tall. 
I have a bag of cypress mulch from the pet store, and organic compost mulch which consists of bark mulch, composted plant/wood products, sawdust & gypsum. I was thinking I could either combine them or do like a gradual transition and separate them so that I can possibly grow some plants for him in the mulch area. Is this OK? GO!!

THANK YOU!


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## Hermes (Nov 7, 2014)

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/Mostly-done-with-the-enclosure!.105358/


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## Hermes (Nov 7, 2014)

It's in my living room, there are a couple more pictures on that thread.


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## Ciri (Nov 7, 2014)

Robin! said:


> OK y'all - I got new substrate so I need your guidance please! I admire the passion that has been so evident in this thread - but we all need to remember that parents have different ways of raising kids - so we're gonna have different opinions on how to raise our torts...it's human nature. I appreciate ALL input...keep it comin'! (I didn't realize they had such a low survival rate!!!!!!!!)
> 
> Shimmy is in a 24"x24" plastic sweater bin, 6" tall.
> I have a bag of cypress mulch from the pet store, and organic compost mulch which consists of bark mulch, composted plant/wood products, sawdust & gypsum. I was thinking I could either combine them or do like a gradual transition and separate them so that I can possibly grow some plants for him in the mulch area. Is this OK? GO!!
> ...



I would be suspicious of the compost with wood products like sawdust and gypsum. The sawdust could be from plywood cuts, which means that there would be formaldehyde and glue in there as well. It also could come from cutting treated lumber, which is treated with arsenic, yet another toxin. For my animals I prefer the most natural substrate – some soil from the backyard where there have been no herbicides or pesticides sprayed for at least a few years, baking it first in the oven at 350° (for about 20 minutes?) To sterilize it. You could plant diachondra in the soil along with native plants such as globemallow.


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## Robin! (Nov 7, 2014)

Ciri said:


> I would be suspicious of the compost with wood products like sawdust and gypsum. The sawdust could be from plywood cuts, which means that there would be formaldehyde and glue in there as well. It also could come from cutting treated lumber, which is treated with arsenic, yet another toxin. For my animals I prefer the most natural substrate – some soil from the backyard where there have been no herbicides or pesticides sprayed for at least a few years, baking it first in the oven at 350° (for about 20 minutes?) To sterilize it. You could plant diachondra in the soil along with native plants such as globemallow.




The sawdust threw me off too - but I didnt even think about glue used in the wood! I've got 3 planter beds in my backyard with good rich soil that I've grown plants in before - but it's got mulch too, but I don't know what kind. Once I get situated, I'll try growing plants.

Thank you!


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## Hermes (Nov 7, 2014)

Ciri said:


> I would be suspicious of the compost with wood products like sawdust and gypsum. The sawdust could be from plywood cuts, which means that there would be formaldehyde and glue in there as well. It also could come from cutting treated lumber, which is treated with arsenic, yet another toxin. For my animals I prefer the most natural substrate – some soil from the backyard where there have been no herbicides or pesticides sprayed for at least a few years, baking it first in the oven at 350° (for about 20 minutes?) To sterilize it. You could plant diachondra in the soil along with native plants such as globemallow.



Yeah dirt that has been baked works really good, or coco coir from Home Depot, they sell it for like $15 for 3 bricks and that's a lot and it's about 1/4 of what Petco or any other pet-store would charge


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## Robin! (Nov 7, 2014)

Hermes said:


> Yeah dirt that has been baked works really good, or coco coir from Home Depot, they sell it for like $15 for 3 bricks and that's a lot and it's about 1/4 of what Petco or any other pet-store would charge



I went to Home Depot in search of this magic coco coir, but no luck....that's really what I was wanting.


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## Hermes (Nov 7, 2014)

http://m.homedepot.com/p/Garden-Supply-Coco-Peat-Brick-3-Set-300coco/203463756/


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## Hermes (Nov 7, 2014)

Some local stores might not carry it depending on where you live but you can get it shipped to your local store for free and just pick it up at the front desk.


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## Hermes (Nov 7, 2014)

Also if you ever need a new thermometers or hygrometer don't waste money at pet stores, the ones at Home Depot are great and also a fraction of the price 

http://m.homedepot.com/p/AcuRite-Di...mperature-Comfort-Monitor-00619HDSB/202260980


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## Robin! (Nov 7, 2014)

Hermes said:


> Also if you ever need a new thermometers or hygrometer don't waste money at pet stores, the ones at Home Depot are great and also a fraction of the price
> 
> http://m.homedepot.com/p/AcuRite-Di...mperature-Comfort-Monitor-00619HDSB/202260980



Thanks - good to know. I've got one that seems to work well. My other quest item: appropriate non-coil UVB bulb, would prefer not to buy it online


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## Hermes (Nov 7, 2014)

Robin! said:


> Thanks - good to know. I've got one that seems to work well. My other quest item: appropriate non-coil UVB bulb, would prefer not to buy it online



Yeah I'm always conflicted about buying things online, on the one hand you get better prices and better selection, but you have to wait for days!! But if you don't find it locally check out 
http://www.lllreptile.com/catalog/23-heat-bulbs-night-heat-bulbs-ceramic-bulbs

They are forum members here too btw


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## Robin! (Nov 7, 2014)

Hermes said:


> Yeah I'm always conflicted about buying things online, on the one hand you get better prices and better selection, but you have to wait for days!! But if you don't find it locally check out
> http://www.lllreptile.com/catalog/23-heat-bulbs-night-heat-bulbs-ceramic-bulbs
> 
> They are forum members here too btw



Thanks!


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## Robin! (Nov 7, 2014)

I really need to get his home situated tonight, so I'm going to use some soil from my planter beds which hasn't been exposed to any pesticides. Baking in the oven is a new one for me - but I'll give it a go! 

Do you put the dirt on a cookie sheet?? 

This isn't the craziest thing I've done for my pets, but it's up there!


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## the_newzie (Nov 7, 2014)

Robin! said:


> My other quest item: appropriate non-coil UVB bulb, would prefer not to buy it online



I just bought a Mercury Vapor Bulb (MVB) from Petsmart last week (same situation, had to set up an indoor habitat fast and didn't have time to order online). Can't remember if it was the Eco Terra or the Nat Geo brand (think it was Nat Geo), it works good so far.

Disclaimer: I'm new, not an expert.


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## Robin! (Nov 7, 2014)

Well, soil from the planters is out - there's evidence of fertilizer...


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## Ciri (Nov 7, 2014)

Robin! said:


> I really need to get his home situated tonight, so I'm going to use some soil from my planter beds which hasn't been exposed to any pesticides. Baking in the oven is a new one for me - but I'll give it a go!
> 
> Do you put the dirt on a cookie sheet??
> 
> This isn't the craziest thing I've done for my pets, but it's up there!


 Yes – put it on a cookie sheet. I have done this before myself, but usually do it outside with the toaster oven on my back porch. It does make a little bit of a smell, but nothing terrible.


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## Ciri (Nov 7, 2014)

Robin! said:


> Well, soil from the planters is out - there's evidence of fertilizer...


 Good that you noticed. What about just regular old-fashioned dirt. Since you're in Phoenix it should be the usual light brown soil we have here in the desert. Do you have some in your yard that you think would be safe? I grow the diachondra in desert soil here in Tucson. As long as it has some shade it does fine.


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## ascott (Nov 7, 2014)

Is that tortoise painted?


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## Hermes (Nov 8, 2014)

ascott said:


> Is that tortoise painted?


The one that is painted is mine.


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