# Please help in saving these reptiles and their skins (video)



## Candy (Aug 16, 2010)

I am posting what is happening to reptiles in the fashion industry. I tried to watch this video but could not get through even a minute of it. The reason that I'm posting it is so you can help pass on the message to others not to support this industry. I do believe that when people buy things that are made of reptile skins they don't even consider how it is done. I know that I didn't think about it myself until I was sent this video. This is what happens to these animals when there is high demand. If you have any negative comments about PETA then please by all means stay off of my thread because that is not what I'm looking for here. This is not a debatable topic to me. It is just a sad one. I couldn't even believe what I was seeing. 

https://secure.peta.org/site/Advoca...ogin=true&JServSessionIdr004=izvdzwuri4.app33


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## dmmj (Aug 16, 2010)

I am not commenting on PETA but how will this help the animals?


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## ChiKat (Aug 16, 2010)

Ugh that's disgusting. I don't know why I'm still surprised at how shitty people are.
In high school I gave a speech on the fur industry, and another on bullfighting. Horrible.


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## TylerStewart (Aug 16, 2010)

Just so I understand the criteria, if we agree with PETA, we can post here, but if we think they're a bunch of lying idiots / eco terrorists, we can't?


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## dmmj (Aug 16, 2010)

No I think she is reffering just to this thread since it is her's she gets to decide the rules of it. You can post your own thread about peta and then clarify the rules for posting on that thread.


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## ChiKat (Aug 16, 2010)

I think that Candy simply isn't looking for any PETA discussion on this thread. 
Lots of people have strong feelings towards them and can't help commenting, but I don't think discussing PETA is what she was looking for when she created this thread.


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## Candy (Aug 16, 2010)

Yes Katie that's exactly it. What you see on the video is real whether you agree with PETA or not. If you can make it through the video is up to you, I could not. Dmmj, I posted this so it can be passed on to people who buy alligator items or snake items or lizard items in the industry and so on and so on. A lot of people don't realize that in the industry these animals are killed this way. I'm not saying that the whole industry is like this, but this video shows a dirty side of it. I want to show it to as many people as possible so that we are aware that this kind of thing happens. Just as the fur industry has been hurt by public awareness I think that it's crucial to make aware the horrible deaths these animals suffer. That's all. 

I'm sorry I thought that I had posted the right link when I posted the thread, but here it is if you want to watch it. It takes a few seconds to pop up. 


http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=cold-blooded_horrors_peta


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## TylerStewart (Aug 16, 2010)

So per the request by Candy (_Please help in saving these reptiles and their skins_), being someone who wouldn't be caught dead in animal skins (mostly because I think it's tacky fashion from the 80's), what would you like me to do to save the reptiles? I can stop buying it.... Or.... Well, I don't really anyways.... And probably nobody in this forum does. Just trying to understand the intent of the OP. There's an ugly side to literally everything on earth. 

One thing I'm sure of, I produce a lot more animals than I kill. Which also gets me in trouble in different ways. I just can't win.


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## terryo (Aug 16, 2010)

Sad a pathetic Candy. I understand completely. It's the same with everything...we think that if people would stop buying...they would eventually stop producing. I have been sent a load of tapes like this and I can't get through them either. It just never ends.


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## Tortuga_terrestre (Aug 16, 2010)

WOW! that was graphic. Very sad. Humans exploit nature way too much.


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## Candy (Aug 16, 2010)

TylerStewart said:


> So per the request by Candy (_Please help in saving these reptiles and their skins_), being someone who wouldn't be caught dead in animal skins (mostly because I think it's tacky fashion from the 80's), what would you like me to do to save the reptiles? I can stop buying it.... Or.... Well, I don't really anyways.... And probably nobody in this forum does. Just trying to understand the intent of the OP. There's an ugly side to literally everything on earth.
> 
> One thing I'm sure of, I produce a lot more animals than I kill. Which also gets me in trouble in different ways. I just can't win.



Why can't you win Tyler you don't skin your animals alive right? I take it you didn't watch the video that I posted? Yes if you do buy these then stop and if you don't then that's great they won't be getting any money from you and that's what this is all about "Money". Please if you could pass on the site so that the people who do buy these things can see how they get some of the skin that would be great. Awareness that's what we need to get out to the public and I do realize there are people who would wear it anyways, but there's not much that you can do about that kind of horrid person. There are ugly sides to everything on earth that's why we stick together in humanity and spread the word so we can stop some of it. 



terryo said:


> Sad a pathetic Candy. I understand completely. It's the same with everything...we think that if people would stop buying...they would eventually stop producing. I have been sent a load of tapes like this and I can't get through them either. It just never ends.



Terry isn't it the hardest thing to watch? I couldn't do it it made me sick to my stomach. It's obviously done because it shows it on here. 



Tortuga_terrestre said:


> WOW! that was graphic. Very sad. Humans exploit nature way too much.



Sorry Walter I know that it is graphic and probably should have warned people. It is very sad indeed. There's a lot of disgusting human being out there.


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## TylerStewart (Aug 17, 2010)

Candy said:


> Why can't you win Tyler you don't skin your animals alive right? I take it you didn't watch the video that I posted? Yes if you do buy these then stop and if you don't then that's great they won't be getting any money from you and that's what this is all about "Money". Please if you could pass on the site so that the people who do buy these things can see how they get some of the skin that would be great. Awareness that's what we need to get out to the public and I do realize there are people who would wear it anyways, but there's not much that you can do about that kind of horrid person. There are ugly sides to everything on earth that's why we stick together in humanity and spread the word so we can stop some of it.



Yes I did watch the video - I saw the same one or a similar one 10 years ago. I just can't win because: I produce animals, which used to be a good thing. Then a few bleeding hearts think there's an overpopulation of them, so it turns into a bad thing. It's not a debate for this forum, but it is what it is. It's like the 4" turtle law.... They want you to stop importing tortoises from the wild, but then they (the govt) won't let you sell the babies that you produce (which are always under 4", at least for some amount of time). The wild caughts come in right at 4", so it's an easy thing to sell and stay within the law. If they cared that much about the wild populations, they would stop forcing local pet stores to buy from the wild population. For the record, these laws and regulation are almost always made by democrats. 

Fortunately, I think the people that buy reptile skins in the US is dwindling fast. It was obviously much more popular in the 80s, which is probably when much of that was fimed. There are still farms doing this (probably not any in the US), and I'm sure that just like other livestock processing, it is mostly done in a humane way. All it takes is some bozo with a camera in Indonesia to film this in it's worse case scenario, get it into the hands of people like PETA, who hires some out of work celebrity in an attempt to add credibility to their cause, and everyone thinks it's happening down the street from their house. 

Let me know if you want to hear how I really feel


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## chadk (Aug 17, 2010)

In many countries, reptiles are just another food source. I was not able to watch the whole video, as it kept freezing up, but some of the parts I saw showed a dead animal being 'skinned alive', but clearly it was just the nerves that can continue to cause movement for quite some time after death (head removed, heart stopped, etc). In fact, many reptiles utilize a mechanism that causes lots of movement in a body part (usually the tail) to move quite violently when detached, so the predator focuses attention on the tail, giving the other, living part, a chance to survive.

As for the clips of the alligator farms, I was only able to see a few seconds of it, but keep this in mind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_Alligator


*Endangered species recovery*

Historically, alligators were depleted from many parts of their range as a result of market hunting and loss of habitat, and* 30 years ago many people believed their population would never recover*. In _1967, the alligator was listed as an endangered species _(under a law that preceded the Endangered Species Act of 1973), meaning it was considered in danger of extinction throughout all or a significant portion of its range.

A combined effort by the United States Fish and Wildlife Service, state wildlife agencies in the South, *and the creation of large, commercial alligator farms were instrumental in aiding the American alligator's recovery*. The Endangered Species Act outlawed alligator hunting, allowing the species to rebound in numbers in many areas where it had been depleted. As the alligator began to make a comeback, states established alligator population monitoring programs and used this information to ensure alligator numbers continued to increase. In 1987, the Fish and Wildlife Service pronounced the American alligator fully recovered and consequently removed the animal from the list of endangered species. The Fish and Wildlife Service still regulates the legal trade in alligator skins and products made from them.


Farming
Main article: Alligator farm
Alligator farming is a big and growing industry in Georgia, Florida, Texas and Louisiana. These states produce a combined annual total of some 45,000 alligator hides. Alligator hides bring good prices and hides in the 6 to 7 feet (1.8 to 2.1 m) range have sold for $300 each, though the price can fluctuate considerably from year to year. The market for alligator meat is growing and approximately 300,000 pounds (140,000 kg) of meat is produced annually. According to the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, raw alligator meat contains roughly 200 calories (840 kJ) per 3 ounces (85 g) serving size, of which 27 calories (130 kJ) come from fat.[22]

Alligator meat is sometimes used in jambalayas, soups, and stew.


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## Candy (Aug 17, 2010)

TylerStewart said:


> Candy said:
> 
> 
> > Why can't you win Tyler you don't skin your animals alive right? I take it you didn't watch the video that I posted? Yes if you do buy these then stop and if you don't then that's great they won't be getting any money from you and that's what this is all about "Money". Please if you could pass on the site so that the people who do buy these things can see how they get some of the skin that would be great. Awareness that's what we need to get out to the public and I do realize there are people who would wear it anyways, but there's not much that you can do about that kind of horrid person. There are ugly sides to everything on earth that's why we stick together in humanity and spread the word so we can stop some of it.
> ...



I'm hoping you're right and that it's not happening. I still passed it on through my email although most people won't watch it because they don't want to be bothered. Tyler do you really think that Pamela Anderson is a has been?


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## TylerStewart (Aug 17, 2010)

Candy said:


> Tyler do you really think that Pamela Anderson is a has been?



LOL, absolutely. Just because Pam was on "Dancing with the Stars" doesn't mean she's a celebrity anymore. What has she ever done that she was acually a good actress in? Since Baywatch (not that she was a good actress on that show), I can't think of anything. I think we all know why she is who she is (I won't clarify as this is a family forum), which makes her a perfect candidate for PETA ads. 

Additionally, in the video, they showed a gutted-animal's heart still beating on the table. This doesn't mean the animal was still alive and knowing what was going on. When I was salmon fishing in Alaska last year we would club them on the heads the second we decided to keep them, and when gutting them hours later, their hearts were still moving around (beating?).


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## Candy (Aug 17, 2010)

TylerStewart said:


> Candy said:
> 
> 
> > Tyler do you really think that Pamela Anderson is a has been?
> ...



You said Celebrity not actress and actually that's all in the eye of the beholder anyway. You say she's nothing but a lot of other people have made her very wealthy so it's all in your own opinion I guess. The video showed a lizard that had part of it's neck cut still taking gasps of air did you not see that? Don't try to downplay the video. I know what I'm seeing. I guess it might make some of you feel better if you see only what you want to see.


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## TylerStewart (Aug 17, 2010)

Celebrity, actress, it's all the same to me. I just meant she's never been productive or acted well, that's all. Anyone that has been on TV first, has large breasts, and then shows enough skin can become popular, which I guess translates into celebrity and then gets you signed with PETA for the shock and awe campaign. There's lots of people with lots of money that have never really accomplished anything. 

I saw the video, and I would never suggest that hasn't happened - obviously it's right there on the video. I would also never suggest it hasn't happened to probably every type of animal out there for multiple reasons. I just said that in the large majority of the time it's done in a more humane way, and that the video likely wasn't filmed in the US. All it takes is 60 seconds worth of it happening somewhere at some time to get PETA all excited about it. I wonder if all the dogs and cats they killed last year were put down in a more humane way. It was something like 97% of the animals they had taken in that got put down, after all. If they spent their millions of dollars on actually taking care of animals instead of preaching to us all not to keep them, we wouldn't have homeless animals.


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## chadk (Aug 17, 2010)

The lizard with the head cut off was just nerves. It was not gasping for breath. In fact, the video looks to be edited. But even if it wasn't, clearly the head is cutt off severing the spine down through the throat and juglar. Nothing holding on but skin basically.

I'm not suggesting that they are treating the animals well or anything. Just pointing out that for those who have not been around actual death in any animal may not understand what they are seeing. 

Most of us have heard the expression "like a chicken with it's head cut off"... Well, that is what I was seeing in that video. Creatures that were dead, but still moving. Chickens can even continue to make sounds after the head is removed if you don't remove the vocal box with the head. Just nerves, adrenaline, etc still firing for a a few minutes. Skinning a snake that is still moving like that is not the same as skinning a snake 'alive'. It is dead. The head is removed, so the body will not be able to 'feel' any pain, it is just moving because a snake is essentially just one long nervous system.

http://www.tehachapinews.com/node/8905

"Alden said that if you do kill a rattlesnake by decapitation, the head should be buried immediately. She said that the nervous system continues to work up to 30 minutes after death and the head is still capable of inflicting a wound even though it is severed from the body."


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## Yourlocalpoet (Aug 17, 2010)

I don't wear reptile skins, or leather, I think the only person who looks good in crocodile skin is Paul Hogan.
The video isn't very nice though, where's Pamela Anderson, did I watch the wrong thing?


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## Neal (Aug 17, 2010)

I'm not sure what the intent of the video is, but I think videos like this only encourage people who are already against animal cruelty in any form (nothing wrong with that). This is just my opinion and I don't have any statistics to back this up, but I don't think the US has a terrible problem with the type of abuse that is happening in the video.

Having lived in a country where the actions of the people in the video would be considered acceptable, I just can't see the message having any type of effect on them. It's just a way of life for those people; Not that that makes it right. If this message was shared with them it would fall on deaf ears.


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## Laura (Aug 17, 2010)

I wish it could be more Humane.. and I hate to see the meat go to waste.. if they are going to do this.. at least dont waste it..


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## Candy (Aug 17, 2010)

Thank you guys for your posts and I'm hoping that your suggestions are right for the animals sake. I don't know much about reptiles when they are killed. I do know about chickens and a few others. Tyler I don't want to make this about PETA, but I have to ask you where this came from because I've heard it before. This is your statement now let me see your proof.

I wonder if all the dogs and cats they killed last year were put down in a more humane way. It was something like 97% of the animals they had taken in that got put down, after all. If they spent their millions of dollars on actually taking care of animals instead of preaching to us all not to keep them, we wouldn't have homeless animals. 

Ever since TFO members chatted about PETA the last time I've been reading up a lot on them and yet haven't seen anything that proves this comment. Can you please give me your research on this matter so I can read who put it out or where it originated? Thank you.


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## terryo (Aug 17, 2010)

Remember to keep an open mind Candy, because IMHO no matter who prints it, or what it is about, maybe half of it is true. I rarely believe anything that the media prints. Just my thoughts.


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## TylerStewart (Aug 17, 2010)

Candy said:


> Thank you guys for your posts and I'm hoping that your suggestions are right for the animals sake. I don't know much about reptiles when they are killed. I do know about chickens and a few others. Tyler I don't want to make this about PETA, but I have to ask you where this came from because I've heard it before. This is your statement now let me see your proof.
> 
> I wonder if all the dogs and cats they killed last year were put down in a more humane way. It was something like 97% of the animals they had taken in that got put down, after all. If they spent their millions of dollars on actually taking care of animals instead of preaching to us all not to keep them, we wouldn't have homeless animals.
> 
> Ever since TFO members chatted about PETA the last time I've been reading up a lot on them and yet haven't seen anything that proves this comment. Can you please give me your research on this matter so I can read who put it out or where it originated? Thank you.



Well, I didn't remember a specific place I saw this, but a simple google search shows up lots of the same results. If you search for _How many animals does PETA kill_, there's many many links showing numbers. For starters: 

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_Peta_kill_animals
http://www.thisistrue.com/peta.html

This link has official documentation: http://www.petakillsanimals.com/

There's no shortage of similar stories. I'm not sure how you could miss them with any search of PETA. 

Laura - In all reality, I guarantee that meat was eaten. Just because a PETA video says it was wasted, look at the people doing it. They probably do it more for the food than the skins.


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## Candy (Aug 17, 2010)

Thanks Tyler I'm going to look at these now. Terry I am aware of what you are telling me. I will try to keep an open mind thanks. 

O.K. Tyler really our government sucks? These sites are not what I consider reputable sites. I've read what they say their proof is and I'm not finding any. I'm just finding people trying to prove things without showing facts. Isn't that what you get mad a PETA for? Give me something more reputable. I need newspaper articles or transcripts from court or something else then this. if they were busted like these articles say then where's the proof? Do you really believe these kinds of printings? PETA's huge do you really think that this kind of thing wouldn't have been put on the news somewhere? Do you think that there wouldn't be more press then these little new articles that you've posted? I need to see legal documentation before I believe anything these people would say. I would think that their organization would have been brought up on some sort of a charge but I'm not seeing that from what you've given me.


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## TylerStewart (Aug 18, 2010)

Come on, Candy, that was 3 links in a list of 100,000 that say the same thing. Do a search yourself. If you're believing PETA's site over thousands of others, you're never going to be convinced. Here's one more for you:

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=27865922

Sorry, in re-watching this, there is some bad language. Get the kids out of the room.


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## Candy (Aug 18, 2010)

You made a statement about PETA killing so many dogs and I asked you for proof that's all. What I was looking for is the same as (let's say) a high school teacher or a college professor would want if one of his students was writing a paper on PETA. Their not going to except non reputable sites like "Wiki Answer" like you posted. I want to read legal documentation or something from a major newspaper that tell me that this has been verified and proven as fact not someone who's just trying to make PETA look bad for their own agenda. I'm trying to see your guys side of it, but your right I'm not going to convinced with sites like these.


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## TylerStewart (Aug 18, 2010)

What agenda? I'm not running for politics. I don't care if you believe me or any link - you asked for links, so I gave you a small fraction from the first page. If you're going to blindly believe one source and ignore hundreds or thousands of others, that's your decision to make. I love how we're supposed to watch your little 2 minute clip and assume it's completely true and as pure as the wind driven snow, yet you ignore several other things thrown back to you. Think what you want, it doesn't affect me. I'm surprised you don't feel guilty keeping tortoises. That is clearly against the principles of the group you can't seem to cut the umbilical chord from. 

I haven't even read these besides the headline, but here they are. Again, there's no shortage. 

SFGate.com (likely a liberal news site): http://articles.sfgate.com/2005-06-23/opinion/17379611_1_peta-s-web-animal-cruelty-dead-animals

Center for Consumer Freedom: http://www.consumerfreedom.com/news_detail.cfm/h/2833-peta-kills-animals----and-its-a-felony

If all these stories were false, PETA would be filing lawsuits against the many people making this information public. Interesting that they're not.


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## chairman (Aug 18, 2010)

Here's a couple news articles based on an AP news release about the number of animals PETA has euthanized. They're not exactly "unbaised."
http://web.archive.org/web/20070308...une.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1420
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/06/23/EDG11DC9BK1.DTL

Here's a response from PETA confirming that the statistics regarding the number of deaths is fairly accurate. Obviously they disagree with the articles' conclusions about justifying the animals' deaths.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040210045810/http://www.petrescueonline.org/newsinfo/petaeu2.htm

Here are two sources from PETA themselves about why they euthanize. Obviously slanted in their favor (good foils to other sources).
http://www.peta.org/MC/factsheet_display.asp?ID=39
http://blog.peta.org/archives/2009/03/why_we_euthaniz.php

The truth lies somewhere between PETA and the folks who disapprove of PETA. I don't like most of what PETA does, but let's face it, only absolute NUTS get media attention, so that means we need some absolute nuts screaming about animals to make sure that people pay attention to the issues.


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## terryo (Aug 18, 2010)

Candy said:


> Thanks Tyler I'm going to look at these now. Terry I am aware of what you are telling me. I will try to keep an open mind thanks.
> 
> O.K. Tyler really our government sucks? These sites are not what I consider reputable sites. I've read what they say their proof is and I'm not finding any. I'm just finding people trying to prove things without showing facts. Isn't that what you get mad a PETA for? Give me something more reputable. I need newspaper articles or transcripts from court or something else then this. if they were busted like these articles say then where's the proof? Do you really believe these kinds of printings? PETA's huge do you really think that this kind of thing wouldn't have been put on the news somewhere? Do you think that there wouldn't be more press then these little new articles that you've posted? I need to see legal documentation before I believe anything these people would say. I would think that their organization would have been brought up on some sort of a charge but I'm not seeing that from what you've given me.





Exactly what I'm talking about.


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## chadk (Aug 18, 2010)

What is interesting is that a few of you seem to take PETA at face value, yet scrutinize anything or anyone who speaks against them. Yet they have been shown time and again to lie, cheat, and steel to keep their funds flowing from the gullible masses.... (and idiotic celebrities)...


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## terryo (Aug 18, 2010)

chadk said:


> What is interesting is that a few of you seem to take PETA at face value, yet scrutinize anything or anyone who speaks against them. Yet they have been shown time and again to lie, cheat, and steel to keep their funds flowing from the gullible masses.... (and idiotic celebrities)...



Not me Chad....I believe NOTHING I read, unless I am there and see it with my own eyes...unfortunately I am a very cynical person because I have been burnt VERY badly....time heals NOTHING as far as I'm concerned.


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## TylerStewart (Aug 18, 2010)

I'd be interested to see if anyone can find a link from a credible source saying what a peaceful, loving and honest group PETA is. How about something from someone besides them talking about the high percentage of animals that they find homes for? How about money spent on actual care of animals versus propaganda? I bet that would be a lot harder to find than the exact opposite has been! 

The entire defense of PETA so far has came directly from PETA's website (and Candy LOL).


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## terryo (Aug 18, 2010)

Here we go again......Most...no, all....organizations out there have done their share of good....and bad, including the PETA.....IMO. I can't think of one organization or charity that has a 100% (good) or (bad) record. In most cases there is a Politician with his filthy hand in there some place.


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