# Question about the 4 inch turtle law and online pet stores/breeders



## Naven Fowler (Dec 23, 2018)

Why is it that online pet stores and breeders are allowed to sell eggs and hatchlings or different species of turtles and tortoises that are under 4 inches if it is illegal for say a petco or petsmart to sell them. And what little mom and pop stores are they allowed to sell turtles/tortoises smaller than 4 inches? 

Thank you


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## Yvonne G (Dec 23, 2018)

I'm on my Kindle right now and don't know how to copy/paste on it, so you'll have to do your own search. Go to google and type in, "CTTC turtle 4" rule"


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## Tom (Dec 24, 2018)

Naven Fowler said:


> Why is it that online pet stores and breeders are allowed to sell eggs and hatchlings or different species of turtles and tortoises that are under 4 inches if it is illegal for say a petco or petsmart to sell them. And what little mom and pop stores are they allowed to sell turtles/tortoises smaller than 4 inches?
> 
> Thank you


Hello and welcome.

If you read the federal law, there are specific expeditions for scientific purposes, education, and for hobby breeders. The federal law applies only to commercial sellers.

State laws vary, so you'll have to check and see what, if anything, NY says about the 4" rule in its own laws. If your state has nothing specific or different, then, you can go by the federal law.

We've been trying to modify or repeal this nonsensical law for a long time. A man named Richard Fife has invested a lot of his own time and money fighting this thing for us. The government has been stalling and refusing to answer his petitions.


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## kazjimmy (Dec 24, 2018)

For tortoise I would say three to six weeks old


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## enchilada (Dec 24, 2018)

I remember couple years ago I went to a local pet store , the employee was asking me to show proof that im a teacher when I tried to purchase a hatchling peacock slider . But weeks later I went there again , another employee helped me picked up a baby box turtle without any trouble


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## NorCal tortoise guy (Dec 24, 2018)

From what I’ve seen the 4 inch law is widely ignored and seldom enforced


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## Yvonne G (Dec 24, 2018)

Here's the 4" rule:

*The "Four-inch" Regulations*
With a commentary by Michael J. Connor, Ph.D.

In an attempt to curtail the incidence of turtle-associated _Salmonella_ infection in children, federal regulations restricting the sale of turtles and their eggs became law in 1975. There is strong evidence that these regulations were effective in reducing the incidence of Salmonella in the US in the late 1970's. Unfortunately, although the regulations were meant as public health measures they have had impacts on both turtle keeping and on turtle conservation. The regulations limit the ability of hobbyists to buy and sell hatchlings, and, because of the expense of raising the animals, they promote the sale of wild-caught rather than captive-bred animals in commercial trade within the US.

The turtle farms that used to produce the millions of hatchling sliders for the dime-store trade now ship their hatchlings overseas (the regulations exclude the export trade) where most of them die within a couple of months. Unfortunately, released survivors of this trade have lead to red-eared slider populations becoming established on every continent except for Antarctica. These feral turtles have displaced the native species in some areas.

Whatever the merits of the regulations, the law is the law, and we have to respect this. Over the last year I have been contacted several times with regard to the legality of sales of undersized turtles. In these dealings it became obvious to me that although there are widespread misconceptions about them, few people seem to have actually read the regulations. For example:


Contrary to popular belief, although they may have been inspired by consequences of the trade in hatchling red-eared sliders, the regulations cover all chelonians with a carapace less than 4 inches in length. This includes tortoises and box turtles, not just water turtles. The only exceptions are the sea turtles. These are covered by different laws.
In keeping with their public health orientation, the regulations basically cover the mass marketing of turtles to the general public. Because the regulations specifically exclude sales not in connection with a business, most private party sales of surplus stock by hobbyists are unaffected by this law.
The complete regulations are reprinted below from:
*21 CFR Ch. 1 (4-1-91 Edition) pages 550-552.*

1240.62 Turtles intrastate and interstate requirements

(a) Definition. As used in this section the term "turtles" includes all animals commonly known as turtles, tortoises, terrapins, and all other animals of the order Testudinata, class Reptilia, except marine species (families Dermochelyidae and Chelonidae).

(b) Sales; general prohibition. Except as otherwise provided in this section, viable turtle eggs and live turtles with a carapace length of less than 4 inches shall not be sold, held for sale, or offered for any other type of commercial or public distribution.

(c) Destruction of turtles or turtle eggs; criminal penalties.

(1) Any viable turtle eggs or live turtles with a carapace length of less than 4 inches which are held for sale or offered for any other type of commercial or public distribution shall be subject to destruction in a humane manner by or under the supervision of an officer or employee of the Food and Drug Administration in accordance with the following procedures:

(i) Any District Office of the Food and Drug Administration, upon detecting viable turtle eggs or live turtles with a carapace length of less than 4 inches which are held for sale or offered for any other type of commercial or public distribution, shall serve upon the person in whose possession such turtles or turtle eggs are found a written demand that such turtles or turtle eggs be destroyed in a humane manner under the supervision of said District Office, within 10 working days from the date of promulgation of the demand. The demand shall recite with particularity the facts which justify the demand. After service of the demand, the person in possession of the turtles or turtle eggs shall not sell, distribute, or otherwise dispose of any of the turtles or turtle eggs except to destroy them under the supervision of the District Office, unless and until the Director of the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition with draws the demand for destruction after an appeal pursuant to paragraph (c)(1)(ii) of this section.

(ii) The person on whom the demand for destruction is served may either comply with the demand or, within 10 working days from the date of its promulgation, appeal the demand for destruction to the Director of the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition, Food and Drug Administration, 200 C St. SW., Washington, DC 20204. The demand for destruction may also be appealed within the same period of 10 working days by any other person having a pecuniary interest in such turtles or turtle eggs. In the event of such an appeal, the Center Director shall provide an opportunity for hearing by written notice to the appellant(s) specifying a time and place for the hearing, to be held within 14 days from the date of notice, but not within less than 7 days unless by agreement with the appellant(s).

(iii) Appearance by any appellant at the hearing may be by mail or in person, with or without counsel. The hearing shall be conducted by the Center Director or his designee, and a written summary of the proceedings shall be prepared by the person presiding. Any appellant shall have the right to hear and to question the evidence on which the demand for destruction is based, including the right to cross-examine witnesses, and he may present oral or written evidence in response to the demand.

(iv) If, based on the evidence presented at the hearing, the Center Director finds that the turtles or turtle eggs were held for sale or offered for any other type of commercial or public distribution in violation of this section, he shall affirm the demand that they be destroyed under the supervision of an officer or employee of the Food and Drug Administration; otherwise, the Center Director shall issue a written notice that the prior demand by the District Office is withdrawn. If the Center Director affirms the demand for destruction he shall order that the destruction be accomplished in a humane manner within 10 working days from the date of the promulgation of his decision. The Center Director's decision shall be accompanied by a statement of the reasons for the decision. The decision of the Center Director shall constitute final agency action, reviewable in the courts.

(v) If there is no appeal to the Director of the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition from the demand by the Food and Drug Administration District Office and the person in possession of the turtles or turtle eggs fails to destroy them within 10 working days, or if the demand is affirmed by the Director of the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition after an appeal and the person in possession of the turtles or turtle eggs fails to destroy them within 10 working days, the District Office shall designate an officer or employee to destroy the turtles or turtle eggs. It shall be unlawful to prevent or to attempt to prevent such destruction of turtles or turtle eggs by the officer or employee designated by the District Office. Such destruction will be stayed if so ordered by a court pursuant to an action for review in the courts as provided in paragraph (c)(1)(iv) of this section.

(2) Any person who violates any provision of this section, including but not limited to any person who sells, offers for sale, or offers for any other type of commercial or public distribution viable turtle eggs or live turtles with a carapace length of less than 4 inches, or who refuses to comply with a valid final demand for destruction of turtles or turtle eggs (either an unappealed demand by an FDA District Office or a demand which has been affirmed by the Director of the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition pursuant to appeal), or who fails to comply with the requirement in such a demand that the manner of destruction be humane, shall be subject to a fine of not more than $1,000 or imprisonment for not more than 1 year, or both, for each violation, in accordance with section 368 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C. 271).

(d) *Exceptions.* The provisions of this section are not applicable to:

(1) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs for bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibitional purposes, other than use as pets.

(2) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs *not in connection with a business.*
(3) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and turtle eggs intended for export only, provided that the outside of the shipping package is conspicuously labeled "for export only."

(4) Marine turtles excluded from this regulation under the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section and eggs of such turtles.

(e) Petitions. The Commissioner of Food and Drugs, either on his own initiative or on behalf of any interested person who has submitted a petition, may publish a proposal to amend this regulation. Any such petition shall include an adequate factual basis to support the petition, and will be published for comment if it contains reasonable grounds for the proposed regulation. A petition requesting such a regulation, which would amend this regulation, shall be submitted to the Dockets Management Branch, Food and Drug Administration, Room 4-62, Parklawn Building, 5600 Fishers Lane, Rockville, MD 20857.

[40 FR 22545, May 23, 1975, as amended at 46 FR 8461, Jan. 27 1981; 48 FR 11431, Mar. 18, 1983; 54 FR 24900, June 12, 1989]

Originally published in the _Tortuga Gazette_ 29(2): 4-5, February 1993


Notice where I made bold and highlighted (d), (2): *Exceptions*: The sale, holding for sale and distribution of live turtles and VIABLE TURTLE EGGS not in connection with a business.

So, if you're *not* a business, that means, if you're a hobby breeder, you are excepted from the 4" rule.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 24, 2018)

Naven Fowler said:


> Why is it that online pet stores and breeders are allowed to sell eggs and hatchlings or different species of turtles and tortoises that are under 4 inches if it is illegal for say a petco or petsmart to sell them. And what little mom and pop stores are they allowed to sell turtles/tortoises smaller than 4 inches?
> 
> Thank you


Just because an online business or a little mom and pop store sells them, it doesn't mean they are ALLOWED to sell them. The FDA doesn't go around checking turtle sales to make sure everyone is abiding by the rules. They depend upon consumers to report illegal activity. But they really can't be bothered with turtle sales, and if they received a report, at least here in my city, they ask the SPCA to check it out. The SPCA may or may not confiscate the turtles.


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## SweetGreekTorts (Dec 24, 2018)

I've seen lots of breeders put a disclaimer on their websites or online sales ads that say something of the effect to "tortoises and turtles under 4" are sold for educational or research purposes only and are not sold as pets." That's how they get around it.

Pet Stores in my area have a different tactic to get around the rule - you buy the "complete set-up" that they sell (tank, food, water treatment, etc), and the baby turtle is free. Of course back in the day I'd already had the supplies, so I took a friend to the store with me, picked out 2 baby turtles, gave her the cash, and she bought them after showing her Teacher Credentials.


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## Fireside3 (Dec 30, 2018)

Naven Fowler said:


> Why is it that online pet stores and breeders are allowed to sell eggs and hatchlings or different species of turtles and tortoises that are under 4 inches if it is illegal for say a petco or petsmart to sell them. And what little mom and pop stores are they allowed to sell turtles/tortoises smaller than 4 inches?
> 
> Thank you



I am a reptile wildlife rehabilitator and accredited animal control instructor for reptiles in Texas. I can answer this question. The answer is that much of what you're describing is NOT legal. It's against FDA/Health and Human Services code and carries a $1000 fine per turtle. I have been involved in such cases in the past and had many such turtles surrendered to my rescue for this reason, to avoid them being destroyed. The big chain stores are too public in their presence and draw too much attention if they violate the law. so as a corporation that is subject to federal interstate commerce law and regulation, they aren't going to risk it. The online people and "mom and pop" stores are only getting away with it because they're small fish and haven't attracted the attention of anyone yet, and that's all. 

The code states "(b) _Sales; general prohibition._ Except as otherwise provided in this section, viable turtle eggs and live turtles with a carapace length of less than 4 inches shall not be sold, held for sale, or offered for any other type of commercial or public distribution." 

So, it's illegal to sell, advertise to sell, or even offer them short of a sale whether it's commercial or not. If you make a public offer, then you're violating the Health and Human Services code and are subject to a $1000 fine, per offense. Do most small time dealers and backyard breeders have to worry about it? No...unless you're reported. And this does happen. I know of several cases. I've been involved in them. One guy at the local events center here was attending a home and garden show and had tons of hatchling RES struggling to breathe stacked on top of each other in small critter keepers. It was reported and I went down there. Not only was he in violation of the federal code, but with 53 turtles packed into 2 of those small plastic turtle keepers (the kind that usually have the little plastic palm tree), he was facing $53,000 in FDA fines. On top of that, he was in violation of several local codes about selling animals at temporary venues and a couple of other health code violations. He was offered the option of surrendering the turtles, or face prosecution, so he got off easy by being allowed to give up the turtles to a rescue org and allowed to just pack up and leave. In another case, more than 600 baby RES were confiscated by DNR in NYC that were bound for a Chinese food market to be sold as food. They were turned over to a turtle rescue in Long Island and subsequently about 150 of those hatchlings were transferred to me, and others went to other rescues and nature centers in the north east. And in that case, the vendor in possession was prosecuted. I don't know what they got, but they could have been facing $600k just in federal fines, not to mention whatever NY state and NYC threw in there.

A lot of these "small fish" think they're being clever by trying to use the "educational" clause of the law as an exemption, but their defense doesn't stand up to scrutiny in most cases, when authorities actually look into them. And I've seen a few places try to get away with that by using the excuse that they're only being sold for "educational" purposes, to school teachers, etc. and their defense fails when it becomes obvious that they didn't record or verify any scientific or educational bona fides of the people they sold them to, and, they were still offering them openly to/in public, which is a violation. In one case, a vendor in the NW had more than 1000 turtles confiscated, and in FL, I know a case I was involved with marginally, where a guy running a pet store and had been selling hatchling RES and diamondback terrapins for many years to tourists on the beach front, was shut down and prosecuted, and he got the book thrown at him. I recall he actually got some jail time, but I think part of that was for false statements to investigators and fraud related to the sales because he apparently was telling tourists that the diamondbacks he was selling were baby sea turtles...which wasn't legal either way. 

So, in summary, much of what you're seeing online and in mom and pop stores IS NOT legal, and it's just a matter of nobody has reported them yet, or the state and federal health inspectors haven't gotten to them yet because they have bigger fish to fry at the moment. But, as a reptile rescuer and animal control educator I can say that I have seen small operations prosecuted too, to the fullest extent, when they get the attention of authorities.


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## Fireside3 (Dec 30, 2018)

irishkitty said:


> I've seen lots of breeders put a disclaimer on their websites or online sales ads that say something of the effect to "tortoises and turtles under 4" are sold for educational or research purposes only and are not sold as pets." That's how they get around it.
> 
> Pet Stores in my area have a different tactic to get around the rule - you buy the "complete set-up" that they sell (tank, food, water treatment, etc), and the baby turtle is free. Of course back in the day I'd already had the supplies, so I took a friend to the store with me, picked out 2 baby turtles, gave her the cash, and she bought them after showing her Teacher Credentials.




They can't "get around it" that way. That's not a defense. It just means they haven't gotten the attention of authorities yet, but if they do, that tactic wouldn't shield them from prosecution.


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## Stoneman (Jan 3, 2019)

Fireside3 said:


> They can't "get around it" that way. That's not a defense. It just means they haven't gotten the attention of authorities yet, but if they do, that tactic wouldn't shield them from prosecution.



Do you know of any specific instances where officials have proven in court that the responsibility for the transaction was on the seller and not the purchaser under these conditions?


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## Fireside3 (Jan 3, 2019)

Stoneman said:


> Do you know of any specific instances where officials have proven in court that the responsibility for the transaction was on the seller and not the purchaser under these conditions?



Yes. Only like every single case they ever prosecute. The law doesn't make it a violation to buy them, unless you were buying like a car load of them and transporting them across state lines for resale or something. Then you'd be commercial and dealing in interstate commerce of prohibited items if they had evidence you too were reselling them, and they'd come after you also in that case. The responsibility and culpability is always on the seller, because sales and public offers are what's illegal - not possession or purchase.


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## Stoneman (Jan 5, 2019)

I mean with the formal written agreement that the owner is to be aware that they cannot be sold as pets, that they can only be transferred legally to specific people? 

My understanding is that most agencies put this as pretty low priority, that it is a silly law that doesn't really matter about it being enforced. I mean, look at triple L and turtle source. If they wanted to crack down on the biggest distributors, it is not as though they are hiding under a rock. Many of these places have been operating for decades without problems. Based on the examples you have provided, it seems as though this law was thrown at the mentioned people because they were behaving unethically and the agents pulled out their law book to find something, anything, to enhance or make some kind of punishment stick.


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## Toddrickfl1 (Jan 5, 2019)

The 4" law is BS. I personally think the salmonella thing is a myth.


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## NorCal tortoise guy (Jan 5, 2019)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> The 4" law is BS. I personally think the salmonella thing is a myth.


I also think the 4 inch law has outlived its use. But I’m sure it was in place for a good reason to start with. (Though I’m not a fan of laws to protect us from ourselves) Baby sliders were everywhere in terrible conditions. Baby sliders are still everywhere but it seems education has got better.


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## TortoiseRacket (Jan 5, 2019)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> The 4" law is BS. I personally think the salmonella thing is a myth.


It wasn’t a myth, according to my Grandparents, kids would get the baby turtles in Chinatown and they’d feed them chop meat and lettuce. The turtles would get sick, young children would put the turtles in their mouth or near there mouth. And they would get sick. The government made the 4inch law then. I feel the right thing to do would be to say to the parents, tell your kids to keep the turtles away from the face. AND give it proper care. 

Regardless, @Fireside3, if my tortoises have babies, can I give them away to my friends if they are under 4 inches?
Thanks!

Mickey


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## mark1 (Jan 5, 2019)

without re-looking into it , or any updates to it since , I am about positive a non-business is exempt from that law ? you could sell them to your friends .….. I believe originally the non-business part wasn't there , it replaced a number you could offer for sale , 7 I believe ?


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## TortoiseRacket (Jan 5, 2019)

mark1 said:


> without re-looking into it , or any updates to it since , I am about positive a non-business is exempt from that law ? you could sell them to your friends .….. I believe originally the non-business part wasn't there , it replaced a number you could offer for sale , 7 I believe ?


Okay, thanks!


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## Toddrickfl1 (Jan 5, 2019)

2019 update:
Romaine lettuce is now deadlier than turtles under 4"


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## TortoiseRacket (Jan 5, 2019)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> 2019 update:
> Romaine lettuce is now deadlier than turtles under 4"


“All heads of lettuce with less than 5 stalks will be confiscated and a fine will be distributed. The big-box stores like associated and King Kullen already have cut down but mom and pop shops still are breaking this rule.”


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## Toddrickfl1 (Jan 5, 2019)

TripodThe3FootedGecko said:


> “All heads of lettuce with less than 5 stalks will be confiscated and a fine will be distributed. The big-box stores like associated and King Kullen already have cut down but mom and pop shops still are breaking this rule.”


That's hilarious! Good comeback.


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## Redfool (Jan 5, 2019)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> 2019 update:
> Romaine lettuce is now deadlier than turtles under 4"



My under 4” hatchlings eat romaine lettuce. DOUBLE DEADLY!


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## Blackdog1714 (Jan 5, 2019)

Redfool said:


> My under 4” hatchlings eat romaine lettuce. DOUBLE DEADLY!


Mobile WMD's there!


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## queen koopa (Jan 5, 2019)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> 2019 update:
> Romaine lettuce is now deadlier than turtles under 4"


Dude for real!!! Whats with the romaine always being contaminated!?


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## Redfool (Jan 5, 2019)

queen koopa said:


> Dude for real!!! Whats with the romaine always being contaminated!?



It’s probably watered with “partially” treated waste water. I don’t think anyone really knows “how partially”.


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## Madkins007 (Jan 10, 2019)

A few points...

1. Part of the reason the California Turtle and Tortoise Club fought so hard to get the law passed was to help curtail the mass import and sale of baby turtles in the 60's. Millions of the poor things were collected from human waste settling ponds (the source of the Salmonella) and the vast majority of them died within a month. The care sheets, feed, cages, and so on were inhumanely terrible for the poor little sliders. Even recently on this forum or TurtleForum we get well-meaning people looking for those little turtles that can live in a small bowl.

(Note: Red-ear sliders are TERRIBLE pet turtles for most people and the ONLY reason they became popular was because of this period of history when they were so common and easy to collect and ship. Because of this dark period, we now have feral populations of this invasive species pretty much all around the planet.)

2. Turtle based salmonella poisoning is real and still happens. Deaths are fortunately not common but do happen. https://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm048151.htm

3. The 'education, display, or research' 'exemption DOES NOT EXIST. The law says 

(1) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs for bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibitional purposes, *other than use as pets"*. _[emphasis mine]_

Any pet shop, etc trying to use this dodge probably knows it is trying to skirt the law, or they were too dumb to bother reading it. 

4. The law DOES NOT apply to casual hobbyists. One of the stated exceptions is 
"(2) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs not in connection with a business."


5. Salmonella poisoning (and other diseases) from pets happens from almost any animal that lives in contact with its own feces. Aquatic species just have it a little worse than other species do- but this is why we try to make sure people wash their hands after handling most pets.


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