# Confused again! Choy sum OK to feed?



## Clementine_3 (Jul 18, 2009)

I picked up some choy sum at the store today, it looked like a nice dark leafy green so I figured I'd look it up when I got home. Well, I'm home and now confused. lol. It seems to be called a lot of different things and sort of gets pointed back to bok choy, which seems to be OK to feed to a tortoise. It's also called/referred to as Chinese cabbage but I don't think it's the same as "our" cabbage? Almost everything seems to be called Chinese cabbage. OY! 
I haven't offered it yet, wanted to get some opinions first; is it OK to feed and if so just as an occasional thing or part of the 'staple' diet?


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## Seiryu (Jul 18, 2009)

Clementine_3 said:


> I picked up some choy sum at the store today, it looked like a nice dark leafy green so I figured I'd look it up when I got home. Well, I'm home and now confused. lol. It seems to be called a lot of different things and sort of gets pointed back to bok choy, which seems to be OK to feed to a tortoise. It's also called/referred to as Chinese cabbage but I don't think it's the same as "our" cabbage? Almost everything seems to be called Chinese cabbage. OY!
> I haven't offered it yet, wanted to get some opinions first; is it OK to feed and if so just as an occasional thing or part of the 'staple' diet?



I may be wrong and don't have too much time to look things up but I think I always read to stay away from Bok Choy, or rarely ever feed it.

http://russiantortoise.org/russiantortoisediet.htm

on the "Avoid" lists Bok Choy is all I could come up with for now. There are a few links at the bottom stating why.

I am sure others will fill you in some more, some may even use it, I just personally wouldn't.


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## Clementine_3 (Jul 18, 2009)

Thanks!
I saw that and others that say it's a big fat "no", yet I found it listed as a "yes" other places. It's even listed as OK on the sticky here so I am totally not sure what is the right thing! 
The internet is great, yet not so helpful sometimes.


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 18, 2009)

I think the places that list it as ok may mean it's not toxic. Also, people 10 years ago even used to feed torts very differently than they do now. I personally would not feed it. There are a dozen other things I can buy in the store that are better. Radish greens and sprouts are my tort's favorite treat for example.


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## Crazy1 (Jul 18, 2009)

Hi Clementine_3, Yes food is always a debatable topic. And yes it is listed on the sitcky here as part of a varied diet. 
Here is what I found out about Choy sum.

Choy sum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choy_sum

Bok Choy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bok_choy

Chinese cabbage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_cabbage

If these are what you are getting then this is the nutritional value of it. http://nutrition.about.com/od/fruitsandvegetables/p/BokChoy.htm

Brassica
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brassica

Sub categories of Brassica
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Brassica

This is Brassicaceae family http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brassicaceae also known as the mustard family or cabbage family

Like all things if given as part of a varied diet in small amounts it is fine. 
'Do not routinely offer cabbage, spinach, chard, bok choy, or any vegetable related to these, as they inhibit calcium absorption and can cause serious health problems. This is particularly critical in the case of juveniles or egg-laying females.' (' ' from Tortoise Trust Web site).


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## Isa (Jul 19, 2009)

tortoisenerd said:


> I think the places that list it as ok may mean it's not toxic. Also, people 10 years ago even used to feed torts very differently than they do now. I personally would not feed it. There are a dozen other things I can buy in the store that are better. Radish greens and sprouts are my tort's favorite treat for example.


 
Kate, do you give Trevor sprouts often? I always wanted Hermy to taste it but I was not sure it was good for him.


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 19, 2009)

I feed them maybe once a month. They come in a very small package so compared to other things I buy Trevor will actually eat them all. They are higher in oxalic acid, but still not as high as spinach for example. As part of a varied diet (I feed no more than 50-50 with spring mix) I'm comfortable with it. Trevor absolutely devours them. He has an easy time with eating the sprouts too. Up to you though! Kinda depends what else you feed around that time. I just found a place today that sells them closer to my house than the place I usually go to, so I was very excited. I ended up buying turnip greens though just because those were impossible to find within an hour from my house, or so I thought until today! From what I've read turnip greens have the best nutritional value with the lowest oxalic acid of the typical tort greens. Turnip greens are very tough to find in my area; today I went to an oriental store. I believe the radish sprouts I buy are just like baby radish greens. The ones I buy are hydroponic so I feel more comfortable with them even though they are not organic.

Typical sprouts like alfafa sprouts I would not feed, however, as they are higher in protein. Not sure which you are referring to--I was referring to radish sprouts (daikon) specifically.

Oh, and once a month means I buy once a month and feed until they are gone...we don't like them! hehe


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## Isa (Jul 19, 2009)

Thanks Kate 
I was talking about the sprouts. It is impossible to find turnip greens where I live, but I plant some seeds and now I have a lot in my garden for Hermy. I did not know it was that good, thanks for the info


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 19, 2009)

Radish sprouts? I do not hear of them being fed much at all here on the forum, but then again they are impossible to find outside of oriental stores in my area. Everything I found says they are ok nutritionally, especially in smaller amounts. Trevor devours them. It's a bummer you can't find the turnip greens. It's tough here too although not impossible. That's great you have a garden!


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## Madkins007 (Jul 20, 2009)

The 'brassicas'- cabbage, bok choy, cauliflower, broccoli, kale, etc. are often on 'do not use' lists because of a lack of iodine, etc. which can lead to goiters. This is not an issue in a varied, balanced diet. 

'Grey' foods (OK in reasonable amounts in a balanced diet, but not great by themselves) tend to get made into black and white, yes or no foods as people debate them. Spinach and Iceberg lettuce become nos, while Romaine lettuce is a yes in this process.

The thing is... these foods affect humans the exact same way. Has your doctor or dietician ever told you to cut back on brassicas, spinach, or Icerberg lettuce? Have they ever told you that Romaine is especially good for you?

No- they never tell you this. What they DO tell you is to eat a balanced diet heavy in a wide variety of vegetables (the 'eat the rainbow' bit). 

If you offer a tortoise a variety, it will select what it thinks it needs (within reason- it will also tend to select certain flavors, like sugars, that may not be great for it- kinda like us, huh?) 

Bok Choy has a good calcium/phosphorous ratio of 2.84:1, good levels of vitamin A and E, low levels of oxalic acid (apparently this is common in the Asian greens), etc. It is a little low in iron and iodine- but that is where other foods in the diet kick in.

Unless there is a specification I am missing, I don't see a reason to avoid bok choy.

Nutritional info:
http://www.vegetables.co.nz/vegetable.php?id=15
http://www.elook.org/nutrition/vegetables/2190.html


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## Clementine_3 (Jul 20, 2009)

Thanks everyone! After much reading I did sort of figure it wasn't such a bad thing for him to have every now and again but I always like to double check 
It may be a moot point anyway as he hasn't touched the few leaves I've offered. LOL. I'll keep putting it in his breakfast 'til it's gone, he will either eat it or not...silly tortoise.


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 20, 2009)

Madkins: When buying a head of choy sum for example, the typical owner may have only bought 1-2 other things, max, that week. A diet of 33-50% choy sum for 7-10 days is too much in my opinion. That's the owners call to make though. I don't even bother with foods such as this unless maybe I had them in the house already. I only buy what I consider on my "feed" list, which has about 10 items including spring mix which itself can have up to 10 different greens based on the brand. My opinion. 

haha that's funny he didn't like it Clementine. My little guy doesn't like collard greens or beet greens so far.


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## Madkins007 (Jul 25, 2009)

tortoisenerd said:


> Madkins: When buying a head of choy sum for example, the typical owner may have only bought 1-2 other things, max, that week. A diet of 33-50% choy sum for 7-10 days is too much in my opinion. That's the owners call to make though. I don't even bother with foods such as this unless maybe I had them in the house already. I only buy what I consider on my "feed" list, which has about 10 items including spring mix which itself can have up to 10 different greens based on the brand. My opinion.
> 
> haha that's funny he didn't like it Clementine. My little guy doesn't like collard greens or beet greens so far.



I understand where you are coming from, and agree with you on many nutrients- if it was high in oxalic acid, or low in calcium, etc.- then that could be a concern if it was a primary foodstuff over a week. If the nutrient in question is more of a trace element, like the iodine in bok choy, then it will probably be balanced out by another food, and does not really need to be balanced immediately. Tortoises are experts in using low-nutrient foods effectively.

I also dislike diet plans that only offer 2-3 foodstuffs over a week for exactly the concerns you outline.

Speaking of this, you do know that most spring mixes have a low calciumhosphorus ratio, averaging out to 1.5:1, and that both beet and collard greens have slightly high oxalic acid levels of .65 and .41mg per 100 grams of food compared to the 0.05mg that turnip greens offers?

Again, none of this is a real problem in a varied diet.


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 26, 2009)

Yes I know the spring mix has the low calciumhosphorus. I supplement calcium daily and imagine this brings it up to 2:1. My tort doesn't like beet or collard greens unfortunately, but I regularly feed mustard, dandelion, and radish greens among other things. I also switch up the spring mix brand regularly and some of the ones I get are better than the ones with romaine/radicchio/frisee, and have some weed sort of greens in them too. I just figured out turnip greens aren't liked by my tort, but at least he'll eat them if he's hungry unlike collard or beet greens. With him especially I have to be careful of oxalic acid as he had a stone in the past and sometimes gets urates that are in large amounts and gritty. So, I just aim for variety and only feed what I consider are good foods, no treat food really. In an average week my tort gets the 6 or so greens in spring mix, and then 1-2 other things. I rotate through the spring mixes, and rotate through the other things. Unfortunately I killed my tort food plants and don't have a yard yet so I'm doing the best I can. I think I can do better in the future, but I probably do better than the average owner.  I think the difference between the oxalic acid of beet/collard/mustard/dandelion is pretty high compared to turnip with about the same calciumhosphorus and such.


Thanks for the info!


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## Madkins007 (Jul 26, 2009)

I always think it is kinda funny how much our guys can differ in taste. Mine seem to like turnip greens, which is good because beet greens are tough to find locally! 

I'm reading some really interesting stuff on oxalic acid, stones, and so forth. You say your tort had stones- can I ask for more info on that situation?


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 26, 2009)

I have the opposite--I hard a really really tough time finding turnip greens, but everything else is easy.

He had one stone, singular. It was a month or two after I got him last December. I figure it likely had been developing for awhile, and I probably didn't have anything to do with it. But, I heard he was mostly raised on romaine at the breeders. So, I was stumped. I haven't seen anymore, and his urates have seemed to decrease, so that's good. He will still have a lot at one time, but only every couple weeks instead of a few times a week. I have fed him the same since I got him, so it sounds more like either his previous diet, or something genetic. I hope he doesn't have any more. 

If I saw another one I would think of taking him in for an xray. I actually will feel his urates (I know, tmi) to make sure there are not tiny stones in there. The one he did pass was fairly obvious as he strained for a couple hours and I could tell he was in pain. I do think it could have been from oxalic acid, but the only time I fed him a lot of oxalic acid was the first two weeks I got him when he had both collard and mustard greens (before I knew about oxalic acid and spring mix). I don't think two weeks of his life could have made a huge difference.

I hadn't really thought about this for a couple months before I wrote about why I try not to feed too much oxalic acid. Memories. His favorite food is radish greens and sprouts. We get a lot of produce here (Washington) with the greens still attached.


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## Madkins007 (Jul 27, 2009)

tortoisenerd said:


> I have the opposite--I hard a really really tough time finding turnip greens, but everything else is easy.
> 
> He had one stone, singular. It was a month or two after I got him last December. I figure it likely had been developing for awhile, and I probably didn't have anything to do with it. But, I heard he was mostly raised on romaine at the breeders. So, I was stumped. I haven't seen anymore, and his urates have seemed to decrease, so that's good. He will still have a lot at one time, but only every couple weeks instead of a few times a week. I have fed him the same since I got him, so it sounds more like either his previous diet, or something genetic. I hope he doesn't have any more.
> 
> ...



Thanks!


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## Madortoise (Jul 27, 2009)

It's a good thing we can eat tortoise food. I have been eating a lot more vegetables b/c Penelope can't finish (or care to eat) all of them. That way, I can justify buying a whole mess of different kinds of veges. She's the princess and I the poor servant who eat left overs. LOL.


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