# Temps For Hatchling Sulcatas



## Tom (May 30, 2012)

I'm putting this in the debateable section to invite conversation and comments. Love to hear opinions for or against. Love to hear personal experiences one way or the other.

One of the issues that some folks have taken in the past with my way of raising hatchling sulcatas is the "high" temps. My general strategy is to set a background ambient of no lower than 80, 24/7. Then during the day I offer them a basking spot under an incandescent flood bulb of around 100. This light is on a timer usually set for 12 hours in winter and 13 hours in summer. In my closed chambers the heat from these bulbs and the fluorescents often warms the ambient up into the low 90s on a warm day. Humidity always hovers around 80-85%. Some people think this is too warm and "unnatural".

I have always countered this argument with two points:
Point #1. Have you looked at the temps in their natural range? In the middle of their "winter" the temps reach daily highs right around 100. Some days are only low 90s, while other days are 112. I watched nighttime lows dip into the 50s, but they were usually mid 60s. This is roughly the same pattern I have here for summer. In summer over there the temps are always over 100 during the day and 70s or 80s at night. I'm still watching the temps to see just how hot the summer days and nights will get over there, but it's making me sweat just thinking about it... In my underground burrows in our summers, when temps are simulating the coolest part of the year in African sulcata territory, the temps hover within one degree of 80, with no added heat of any kind, all summer long. This is why I think babies should be kept warm all the time. Even though winter lows might get cooler than 80 over there, they are underground somewhere and not exposed to those cool temps. In the heat of the day, they have the option of warming up, but no one really knows if they partake, or not. Given what I've seen in 100s of captive hatchlings, I am going to make an educated guess that they DO like to warm up. Which brings me to point #2...
Point #2. It works. Plain and simple. I have healthy babies that grow smooth and thrive in every way, using these temps. I still have to feed them a good diet, get them sunshine and exercise, and keep them hydrated, but the temps work. Can they be kept cooler and survive? Yes. We all know they can. Is it better for them to be kept cooler? Not in my opinion, which brings me to my newest point...
Point #3. I consider myself very lucky to know some of the people I know, and I'm very thankful for the doors they have opend for me and the conversations that I have had. Recently, I had the great pleasure and good fortune to meet and have a conversation with one of the men who is generally believed to be the largest producer of sulcata babies in the US. The man handles and raises more sulcata babies in one year than I have ever even seen in my whole life. It would be generous to compare my level of experience to this man's, as a drop in a bucket. We talked about many aspects of sulcata care, including how to start and raise hatchlings. Of course, I enthusiastically talked too much, but he was polite and indulging anyway. One of the things he had to say was that he thinks people keep babies too cool. He never lets his get below 80 at any time. During the day they all have a basking light where "they can get as hot as they want". During the day he lets the ambient climb to 96 degrees, before the swamp coolers kick in. That's AMBIENT, not basking temp. He wants to see the babies take cover away from the hotspot during the heat of the day. This is the closest routine that I have seen or heard of, that mimics what happens in the wild. My friend Tomas from Senegal raises his babies in outdoor pens, with shade, plants and cover available of course, and this would be similar to the temps they are exposed to.

Interesting, the things you see and learn as you go along...


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## StudentoftheReptile (May 30, 2012)

Obviously, I have no experience with hatchlings, and my only personal experience with sulcatas has been with my own Kobe, whom I've only had just over a year. Nevertheless, I'll share my observations.

For most of this period, Kobe is in the 6-inch carapace-length range. His age is estimated to be about 2-3 yrs. Not hatchling, I know, but still young.

Until this spring, I kept Kobe in a large glass terrarium 42" long x 36" wide. He had two main shelters, along with ample substrate to burrow in. For much of that time, the enclosure was heated during the day by a 160-watt MVB and supplemented by a 250-watt infrared bulb during the peak hot hours (11am-3pm). The basking temps would range from 120-150'F. Extreme, some may say, but mind you, the cooler parts of the enclosure still remained in the low 80s. Kobe would routinely bask for at least 30 minutes every morning at a 140'F. He had ample ability and space to thermoregulate and move to a colder spot, but he would often choose to remain at hot areas for extended periods of time.

He's been outside 24/7 since March. This past weekend, I went outside and took a reading of the ground where he was sprawled out basking at approximately 11am: 127'F.

My opinion is that when given the proper environment, they are more than capable of withstanding those "high temperatures" and will often choose to for reasonably long periods of time.


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## tortadise (May 30, 2012)

I keep all the hatchlings that I get from my adults around 92 and 85 on the cold side for about 3 weeks. In a enclosure made of plexiglass and sealed. Basically I call it the live incubator enclosure. I keep it very humid and spray them down few times a day. Once they start getting growth and weight gain I put them outside in an enclosed but vented tort table, and keep spraying them down. This usually occurs in may-September. My females egg cycle is first clutch drops sometimes December but usually January and exactly 30 days after first clutch from either 3-4 clutches. Typically the youngsters at 3 weeks in the "live" incubator are placed outside they grow very rapidly. I kept some back a few years ago and reached 6" on one and 6.25" on another right at 1 year.


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## Tom (May 30, 2012)

tortadise said:


> I kept some back a few years ago and reached 6" on one and 6.25" on another right at 1 year.



That is about the size mine reach at a year too.


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## tortadise (May 30, 2012)

It does amaze me sometimes, I tend to get some babies back that I had sold and even with giving a care sheet and long conversations at shows or people I sell them too. They just don't seem to be the same smooth and "larger" size like the ones I kept back. It's hard for us breeders to change the fate of animal without changing the owner. We will get their someday hopefully. 

I am curious about the sudanese babies you picked up to see if their growth rate is average or camparitive in size to your others. Do you know original locale of your other adults?

I've been wondering how many "sub species" like sulcata there are. I see so many different physical and non physical chacteriatics in sulcatas. For instance the marginal scutes. I see a lot that flare upright and some like on my adults that flare not at all and almost are straight. I've also notices the supra caudal and The 4th vertebral scute concaved. Some seem to have so many different shapes and sizes in my observations. I suppose we really can't know exactly what bloodline they came from to link original locale adults.

Just makes me wonder in such a "common" species how many questions we can still come up with.


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## Tom (May 30, 2012)

The number I have heard several times for the number of "types" of sulcatas is three. No scientist is calling them "subspecies" yet, but at least some researchers think they ought to. Of course just about all of them in America are mutts now, my adults included. I have no idea where they originated. Could be anywhere really. I have been told than most of the current ones came out of Mali, BUT that that was the point of exportation, and some may have come from other areas into Mali to be exported out of Africa.

That is why the Sundanese ones that Dean and I bought are so special to us. The known locality is very important to me, but the adults are also very attractive looking to me too. I too am very curious about the growth rates. You know I will be posting about it...


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## DeanS (May 30, 2012)

I'm having a blast with these guys...they're doing things none of my past babies have done. Example. Yesterday and today I offered them fresh chop (ie, I mowed my lawn)...after they consumed what they wanted from a soccer ball-sized mound...they proceeded to burrow into it. I had left them alone to eat and when I came back...I saw none of the six. They were all buried in the mound...GREAT STUFF! This on consecutive 98* days.



Tom said:


> That is why the Sudanese ones that Dean and I bought are so special to us. I too am very curious about the growth rates. You know I will be posting about it...




...as will I! First fecals today...BTW!


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## tortadise (May 31, 2012)

That's awesome. I would love to get some and comparatively observe the differences as well as posses a known locale. Are there any still available? It would be just in time too in respect of my first clutch hatching and having two sulcata lines to compare growing up.


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## bfmorris (Jun 1, 2012)

Tom said:


> He never lets his get below 80 at any time. During the day they all have a basking light where "they can get as hot as they want". During the day he lets the ambient climb to 96 degrees, before the swamp coolers kick in. That's AMBIENT, not basking temp. He wants to see the babies take cover away from the hotspot during the heat of the day.



Tiny G. sulcata need these well ventilated temps until they get to 3-3.5 inches, then the night time low needs to start to dropping down a little. More as the tortoise grows. The reason is not that babies are different; the reason is because of heat storage and heat loss issues, due to size.


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## Zamric (Jun 2, 2012)

Never having raised Sulcata Hatchling, I really have no commint to add here other than I lOVE this kind of info! 

Tom, you said most all Sulcatas in the USA are mutts (Like EVERYTHING that comes to this country!  ). Why is that? You also said the are 3 "Types" of Sulcatas.... what are those?


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## Tom (Jun 2, 2012)

This is something I only recently learned. Those people who REALLY know sulcatas have noticed that there are at least three distinct looking types that occur throught the HUGE natural range. Each type has some physical characteristics that make them look a little different than the same species from another part of the range. 

Think of humans. We are all the same species, but we all have some very different physical appearances. There are size and shape differences, as well as color variations, throughout the range of the human species too.

While sulcatas were still being imported, back in the day, they came from many different parts of their range. Most Americans just put any old sulcata from anywhere all together with any other sulcata. This has resulted in the "mutts" that most of us have today. For a wild sulcata researcher, or someone from Africa, this creates a visual hodgepodge of different characteristics within the same animal or within different animals from the same clutch. Kind of like breeding two dog breeds together. The pups will show a variety of the characteristics of each parent, yet it is still all one species. This very same thing has been happening with redfoots since the 60's and leopards too. This is why it is so important, to me at least, to find and maintain the purity of location specific animals. Hence my South African Leopards and my new Sudanese sulcatas.

No scientist has yet classified these "types" into subspecies, but most will agree that location specific variations do occur. I think this is true of many species. And often the larger the range, the larger the variety of "types". I really saw a lot of this with the water monitors that I've have always been so fond of.


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## Zamric (Jun 2, 2012)

Well, I guess that makes sence... a larger gene pool will result in larger variations. I would say that any area that has a "Spacific" looking Sulcata, probably have inbreeding problems as well.

One good thing about Mutts is that they are ussually heathier acrossed the scales than their pure breed counterparts.


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## Tom (Jun 2, 2012)

Zamric said:


> Well, I guess that makes sence... a larger gene pool will result in larger variations. I would say that any area that has a "Spacific" looking Sulcata, probably have inbreeding problems as well.
> 
> One good thing about Mutts is that they are ussually heathier acrossed the scales than their pure breed counterparts.



I would argue not true, in the case of any (or at least most) wild animal, on both counts.

Genetic diversity is not a problem with any normally dispersed wild population.

When humans tamper with species, like the dog, and mess things all up, then yes, sometimes the mutts do seem to show some vitality and health benefits. However, two points. Point 1: When humans do it right, the results are AMAZING. My malinois, and all their National Championship working titles, are living proof of it. There is no mutt that can take down a bad guy like one of my malinois or Dutch shepards. There is no mutt that can herd like a good working border collie. I have never seen healthier dogs than the malinois. No joint, hip, eye, skin, allergy, or digestive problems. The only time one goes to the vet is for an injury of some sort. I have seen many mutts with various health problems. The stamina, speed and agility of these dogs is also second to none. They can run literally 3-5 times longer, at a higher speed, than anything else out there. I have repeatedly compared them to lots of other dogs in this respect and they win every time. Of course, as we are all very aware, humans don't often get it "right". Point 2: A given WILD species is usually uniquely and perfectly adapted to its own environment. When mixing in other genetic traits, the likelihood is that they will become LESS perfectly suited to survival in THAT particular environmental niche. There are some exceptions, if one looks hard enough, but this is generally the case. The sulcatas from Sudan have evolved for millions of years to deal with the issues and challenges of Sudan. The sulcatas from Senegal have adapted to life in Senegal. It is unlikely, in my opinion, that the mixed offspring of a Sudan/Senegal cross, will be better suited to live in either environment than a "pure" one living in its own area. In captivity this matters not, as we adjust, help and compensate for every thing for these guys. The sulcata is a highly adaptable species and for purely "pet" purposes, I don't think the "mutt" factor has any real significance.


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## Zamric (Jun 2, 2012)

You make good points, but buy the same arguments you can point to the Cheeta and other "Endangered Spieces" and talk of "Over Specialized" traits that do not allow for the Spieces itself to survive changed that happen on a Global Scale.

A "Pure Breed" animal doing well in todays Global Conditions could be in for major disappointments in just the next 100-10,000 years down the line.

...But this is a Debate over "Temps for Hatchling Sulcatas".... sorry to digresse!


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