# my new tort and his home



## Richabi (Apr 30, 2015)




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## ZEROPILOT (Apr 30, 2015)

I like the little house, but you'll need to toss out the pellets he is living on and replace it with something that can be moistened.
Do you know what type of wood that is? you may have to seal it first so that it wont mold and rot.
You need humidity in there. Also, can you photograph your light bulb?


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## Richabi (Apr 30, 2015)

It's pine humidity at the moment is at 52 and temperature is at 30 under lamp and 20 in his hide


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## Richabi (Apr 30, 2015)




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## ZEROPILOT (Apr 30, 2015)

You'll need much higher humidity and to do so, the pellets gotta go. They will absorb water and start to rot.
Once you have the correct substrate, like orchid bark,the easiest way to maintain humidity would be to partially cover the top with a glass or heavy duty plastic panel.
Sorry to keep being the bearer of bad news, but take out the coiled bulb on the left and replace it with something else. I'd remove it asap.
These cause eye issues in tortoises in short order.
Later in the day many other members will chime in that are more familiar with your tortoise.
I only keep Redfooteds.
You'll be in good hands.


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## Richabi (Apr 30, 2015)

OK what should the humidity be and where could I get orchid bark from thanks


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## ZEROPILOT (Apr 30, 2015)

A hardware store. Humidity in the 75% range. Measure your top because most large hardware stores carry pre-cut sections of plexiglass. (Plastic clear poly sheeting)
There are tortoise specific care sheets here if you search under your species.
For right now, let him soak every day in a shallow dish of warm water and turn off the coiled lamp.
I see no EMERGENCY here and like I said, many members much more experienced will soon be along.


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## Richabi (Apr 30, 2015)

Cool so if I exchange the mesh for plexiglass and drill holes for ventilation and larger hole for basking why turn off the coil lamp that's uvb lamp


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## ZEROPILOT (Apr 30, 2015)

The coil light will harm your tortoises eyes. Some have been blinded permanently.


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## Richabi (Apr 30, 2015)

Oh God what do I use for uvb


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## crimson_lotus (Apr 30, 2015)

You could purchase a mercury vapor bulb which supplies light, heat, and uvb or I would suggest a uvb tube. 

I would line the wood with a shower curtain, pond liner, etc. because the wood will mold with humidity. When you change the substrate it would be a good chance to do that. My enclosure is made from pine and it's in my bedroom...I was persistently coughing and wondering why. Then I found the mold. 
I don't know if it's the live tree or if this pertains to boards of wood as well, but pine can emit toxic fumes. I would cover the untreated wood to be safe.


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## Richabi (Apr 30, 2015)

Oh ok thanks for advice I think I might use plexiglass on the inside line it all and seal the corners suppose it will prolong the life off its home to


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## THBfriend (Apr 30, 2015)

Richabi said:


> Oh God what do I use for uvb


No need to panic, people here are overzealous with their warnings agains "coil" lamps. UV lamps of any type have harmed tortoise eyes, even the tube kind. With your setup, your tortoises is more likely receiving too little UV rather than too much. Without a good UV meter, it's nearly impossible to know what lamp at what distance emits the proper amount of UV. Which is why direct sunlight is always the preferred choice. But I can see how that could be tricky in Wales.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 30, 2015)

Richabi said:


> Cool so if I exchange the mesh for plexiglass and drill holes for ventilation and larger hole for basking why turn off the coil lamp that's uvb lamp



You can put plexi on top of the mesh, cutting out holes for the lights. But you don't need ventilation holes. You want that warm, moist air to stay inside.


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## Richabi (Apr 30, 2015)

OK is the coil a detriment to my tort shall I turn it off probably get a mercury bulb


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## Tidgy's Dad (Apr 30, 2015)

Yes, turn off the coil bulb now.
It won't hurt to have no UVB for a day or two until you can get a mercury bulb or strip.
Try to give him a bit of outdoor time, if possible, but keep a close eye on him.
Even Wales has some sun at this time of year, as I recall.


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## Richabi (Apr 30, 2015)

Ye we got good Sun at the moment but it's cold


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## Richabi (Apr 30, 2015)

Is there a certain size wattage strip light I should get


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## THBfriend (Apr 30, 2015)

zenoandthetortoise said:


> I guess it depends on your definition of overzealous, but I have yet to test a UVB bulb that generates adequate UVB (as measured by a Skye Instruments meter) that doesn't also generate lower wavelength (so higher energy) UVB (as measured by an Apogee Spectroradiometer).
> 
> The breakdown is about half and half; either useless or damaging.


Did you also measure tube fluorescents and MVB? What were the parameters (distance, what's "adequate UV" for you, etc.)? It would be great if you could make a thread about your findings with some numbers. I guess this was an attempt? 
As you wrote there yourself, the UV output of many tube fluorescents is negligible. Tom basically made the same observation here. I agree with your sentiment that you need a meter if you rely on UV lamps of any type for your tortoise.

PS: when talking about wavelengths, better use "long" vs. "short" instead of "high" vs. "low", as the latter is confusing.


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## Lyn W (Apr 30, 2015)

Hi Rich I just posted about a bulb that was recommended to me on your intro thread,

Pets at home and The Range sell a variety of substrates. Have a look at the care sheet for your tort to see what is recommended.

Sorry to add to your shopping list but think your water dish could be a bit if a hazard too, it looks as if it has steep sides which your little tort will have trouble getting in and out of to self soak, and because they don't bend could flip over and drown. The best sort of dish for them is a good old shallow terracotta plant saucer sunk into the substrate so it's at ground level (I got mine from Homebase and B and Q only about £1.50 so won't break the bank).


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## Richabi (Apr 30, 2015)

Would mine b ok if i sunk it to ground level coz the water it self ain't deep


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## Lyn W (Apr 30, 2015)

It might be it would be easier for him to get into to - but if it's the same as your food dish it looks as if the sides a bit steep for such a little tort to climb _out _of and he could fall backwards and get stuck on his back which could be fatal if like it for long time with or without water, whereas a terracotta saucer has sloping sides and good traction for little feet. I always think better safe than sorry for the sake of a couple of quid, but maybe I'm over cautious. The dish will probably be OK for when he's bigger though.


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## Richabi (Apr 30, 2015)

Ye like u said its not worth the risk for 1.50


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## teresaf (Apr 30, 2015)

Don't dispair. most of us got it a bit wrong when we first set up our babies. I actually knew a little when I got mine. About the humidity and all but i did the same thing and used pellets. Sure enough. Pellets and a fogger(my way of giving humidity at the time) dont mix. I lifted their hide after putting my hand in to grab them and found something soft and springy. Still gives me the heebie geebies....LOL live and learn, right? Higher humidity lowers the temp so monitor your temps. Hi humidity plus low temp can cause sickness(RI). Plus thats just miserable. It's the babies that need the humidity to grow healthy and smooth. Once they get older they don't need it as much. I saw 4 inch sulcata once that the owner said was 4.5 years old. dry, dry, dry. I can't imagine that would have happened if a closed chamber had been used. Here's mine...The light is just up high so that i can open it. Mine are burmese black mountain torts. Slightly different needs temp wise but high humidity though. The interior has pond liner stapled in. When I empty the water dish I just dump it in there and add new. Keeps the humidity up above 90% 24/7.


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## Richabi (Apr 30, 2015)

Lol what was it you grabbed


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## Lyn W (Apr 30, 2015)

I'm guessing soggy mouldy pellets!!

Another thing I've learned is that UV rays don't get through glass/plexiglass etc so well so tort doesn't benefit from them.
Also for your shopping list is a temperature gun - I got mine from Amazon cost about £7 so you can spot check diff areas of enclosure easily, and a digital humidity reader (again Amazon £3) it also gives temperature but the instructions were in gobbledegook - not translated well at all so setting it all took a bit working out but got there in the end but makes easy reading of overall temp and humidity.
As teresaf said everyone makes mistakes and there is a good thread called* beginners mistakes* which I find very useful for do's and dont's.so have a read and learn from other people's mistakes.


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## Richabi (Apr 30, 2015)

Will do my first protocol is the lighting wt substrate do you use


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## AmRoKo (Apr 30, 2015)

If you can't get any outdoor time for the baby you can just skip the uvb bulbs entirely and instead just add Vit D into his diet a few times per week.


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## leigti (Apr 30, 2015)

AmRoKo said:


> If you can't get any outdoor time for the baby you can just skip the uvb bulbs entirely and instead just add Vit D into his diet a few times per week.


I am not an expert by any means. But I have never heard that advice before. I have always thought that the UVB source is needed, either sunlight or a bulb and that adding vitamin D is recommended. I think you would be putting your tortoise in danger if you do not provide a UVB source. Especially as a baby.


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## teresaf (Apr 30, 2015)

Richabi said:


> Lol what was it you grabbed


Yes, very fuzzy mold. Now i use zilla jungle mix from amazon. Very much like dirt but not harmful. Also, yes, I should have mentioned my closed chamber would not work for every type tortoise. because mine are from deep Forrest regions they get very little uvb in nature so I can get away with little amounts of uvb. They get calcium suppliments though with d3. Indirect sun 30 minutes a day a couple times a week at least through summer should be fine too. The flip side is they require humidity until much older.


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## Richabi (May 1, 2015)

Yes I have a horsefield


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## Lyn W (May 1, 2015)

AmRoKo said:


> If you can't get any outdoor time for the baby you can just skip the uvb bulbs entirely and instead just add Vit D into his diet a few times per week.



Do you mean .............if you_ *can* _get any outdoor time.........? They need uv rays from sun or bulb source don't they?

Very difficult in Wales - even if sunny its often too cold at this time of year so would have thought a bulb essential


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## Lyn W (May 1, 2015)

Richabi said:


> Will do my first protocol is the lighting wt substrate do you use



A mix of coco coir and sterilised topsoil was recommended to me (Homebase does a good one) but my tort is a leopard and has different needs to yours, Sorry to repeat myself but I would give those care sheets a good read for your type of tort they will answer a lot of questions for you.


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## Lyn W (May 1, 2015)

Lyn W said:


> A mix of coco coir and sterilised topsoil was recommended to me (Homebase does a good one) but my tort is a leopard and has different needs to yours, Sorry to repeat myself but I would give those care sheets a good read for your type of tort they will answer a lot of questions for you.


....forgot the orchid bark!


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## Richabi (May 1, 2015)

Ye it holds moisture and I had the dish to the terracotta were as deep as mine so found shallower ones


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## AmRoKo (May 1, 2015)

leigti said:


> I am not an expert by any means. But I have never heard that advice before. I have always thought that the UVB source is needed, either sunlight or a bulb and that adding vitamin D is recommended. I think you would be putting your tortoise in danger if you do not provide a UVB source. Especially as a baby.





Lyn W said:


> Do you mean .............if you_ *can* _get any outdoor time.........? They need uv rays from sun or bulb source don't they?
> 
> Very difficult in Wales - even if sunny its often too cold at this time of year so would have thought a bulb essential



The whole point of uvb is for vit D ........ Vit D added to the diet rather than those bulbs is perfectly fine, many have done it with excellent results.


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## leigti (May 1, 2015)

AmRoKo said:


> The whole point of uvb is for vit D ........ Vit D added to the diet rather than those bulbs is perfectly fine, many have done it with excellent results.


I would be interested to hear other peoples opinions on this. But maybe it should be in a thread by itself.


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## Lyn W (May 2, 2015)

AmRoKo said:


> The whole point of uvb is for vit D ........ Vit D added to the diet rather than those bulbs is perfectly fine, many have done it with excellent results.


Very interesting - I really do learn something new everyday on the forum Thanks


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## leigti (May 2, 2015)

Lyn W said:


> Very interesting - I really do learn something new everyday on the forum Thanks


I definitely would not stop using UVB source.


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## crimson_lotus (May 2, 2015)

AmRoKo said:


> The whole point of uvb is for vit D ........ Vit D added to the diet rather than those bulbs is perfectly fine, many have done it with excellent results.



http://www.uvguide.co.uk/vitdpathway.htm

I'm no expert, but it says here:

In reptiles, too much vitamin D added to the diet leads to hypervitaminosis-D, which causes kidney damage, calcification of the soft tissues, including the major blood vessels, and premature death.

However, hypervitaminosis-D is not known to occur in basking reptiles (or any other species) obtaining their vitamin D from sunlight, regardless of how long they bask

I would stick with the lights


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## Tidgy's Dad (May 2, 2015)

Me too.
i think supplements for anything should be used only if you can't get the real thing for some reason.
So natural sunlight first, artificial sunlight via uvb lights second and dietary supplements as a last resort.


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## crimson_lotus (May 2, 2015)

How would you even know if you're giving too much vit d to your tortoise through their diet until they show signs of sickness? The amount would have to depend on the type of tortoise and weight, I would assume, so there are a whole bunch of factors to consider, it can't just be uniform for all tortoises. How would we know if the tortoise is getting enough vit d to prevent metabolic bone disease? There are too many issues, and it's so much easier to just have a bulb - or even easier, take them outside for sunlight.

Don't just take someone's word for it - no offense Amroko, but I have no idea who these people are that you are referring to and I don't know how long they've had their tortoises, under what conditions, etc. and I certainly have never heard anyone advocate this. It probably can be done, very carefully, but I don't think it's a good idea for a new tortoise owner.


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## Lyn W (May 3, 2015)

It's an interesting viewpoint, but I would stick with the majority and use uv bulbs. I add calcium occasionally but worry about adding things to food.


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## Richabi (May 3, 2015)

You can't beat natural uv I think a good bulb got to be the next best thing I would think


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## wellington (May 3, 2015)

leigti said:


> I would be interested to hear other peoples opinions on this. But maybe it should be in a thread by itself.


I would love to see some facts, experiments or proof or maybe some info from the few that has raised tortoises this way! of course pictures of normal torts along with the regime would be nice too. Cuz really, if that's all it takes, why are we all spending so much money on uvb lights that don't last very long? Hmmm, probably some bad info from another bad tortoises site.


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## leigti (May 3, 2015)

wellington said:


> I would love to see some facts, experiments or proof or maybe some info from the few that has raised tortoises this way! of course pictures of normal torts along with the regime would be nice too. Cuz really, if that's all it takes, why are we all spending so much money on uvb lights that don't last very long? Hmmm, probably some bad info from another bad tortoises site.


I agree. There is so much conflicting information out there. It takes time to learn what is right, and sometimes we learn the hard way. Until I see actual proof that this works, from many more than one person, I am keeping those ugly lights up all winter


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## wellington (May 3, 2015)

@tortadise @Yvonne G @Tom @Will I would love your opinions on AmRoKo post that if no outside sun time is available, that one should substitute with D3 couple times a week and not use uvb lighting. Other then this is not natural or as good as the sun would be, I also don't think as healthy as a light, but, if this was actually a healthy way to get D3, and a tortoise can grow just fine, why are more not saving the expense of the bulbs?


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## Tidgy's Dad (May 3, 2015)

In tortoises,Vitamin D3 is,as we all know, derived naturally from ultaviolet B exposure.The tortoise can deal with any amount from natural sunshine or uvb bulbs, but in the diet vitamin D3 in excess can cause problems with muscular and blood plasma development, which is controlled by D3, calcium and phosphorus. 
Latrogenic hypercalcemia, when blood serum calcium levels fall below 40mg/dl is very common in reptiles who have an imbalance in calcium to phosphorus to D3. It can be caused by too much oral intake of calcium or D3, which can cause this imbalance in the relative levels.
Vitamin D3 is fat soluble and is built naturally in the skin from uvb, but if taken in the diet can, because of this fat solubility, build up to toxic levels.
Vet Dr. Keith Benson, " What I find interesting is that the dose is given irrespective of the size of the animal. Surely this will result in some overdosing and under dosing. D3 is considered (and this is based on very little, if any, data) safe at about 100 IU/ Kg/week in reptiles. The material in the bottle ( Vitamin D3 or Solar drops ) claims to have 1,500 IU per ml and one drop averages about 1/20 of a ml. That would be like giving 750 IU - theoretically enough to treat 7.5 Kilograms of reptile. Now I realize that the dose might be higher than the one above, or lower, no one knows, even the folks that make this product  Consider how concentrated this material is, then consider the damage that overdosing vitamin D can do (renal disease, soft tissue mineralization etc.) and I would say that until more information regarding the metabolism of this material in the body of reptiles is known, I would choose not to use it."
Me neither.
Who wants to experiment on their tortoise?


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## Kapidolo Farms (May 3, 2015)

Dietary D3 does different things at different rates of intake. But then so does the D3 in the reptile from the sun. The scale of values and what effect they have over what period of time is poorly understood.


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## THBfriend (May 4, 2015)

AmRoKo said:


> The whole point of uvb is for vit D ........ Vit D added to the diet rather than those bulbs is perfectly fine, many have done it with excellent results.


The main point... perhaps. The whole point? I wouldn't be so sure. UVC light is germicidal, and even the lower energy UVB and UVA can inhibit the growth of some bacteria and fungi. I've read about lack of sufficient UV being linked to shell rot with aquatic turtles, and I know that UV is used in phototherapy for humans to treat certain skin conditions. So, it's not unreasonable to assume that proper UV exposure is beneficial to tortoises beyond vitamin D synthesis.


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