# Kevin's Mediterranean Breeding Thread



## KevinGG (Feb 28, 2017)

These are the two Testudo Hermanni Hermanni (Sardinia locality) that were shipped over from Chris Leone last week. The female is just huge. I'll include a shot from above that shows the juxtaposition between the two of them. This thread will be here to record as I, hopefully, notice breeding behavior all the way through to hatchlings and everything in between. It will also include boring daily feedings and anything else I deem interesting. First feeding pictures will come later today. For now, enjoy past feeding pictures

Chicory and Chickweed. (good turtle names?)




Here, you can really see the size difference. Meal is assortment of weeds, dandelion greens, and mazuri.


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## KevinGG (Feb 28, 2017)

Same idea here as the Hermanni thread. They may eventually get squeezed into one. Here are the Mesopotamian (Golden) Greeks that I received last week from Chris Leone. One male and two females. I'm hoping to get breeding behavior soon. This thread will serve to record that process all the way through to hatchlings. As with the Hermanns, I'll probably include boring daily chores, like feeding, and anything else I find interesting. Thanks for reading. Here's the trio. 




Mazuri and Weeds




More pictures later today.


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## BILBO-03 (Feb 28, 2017)

Wow! Beautiful tortoise's


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## BILBO-03 (Feb 28, 2017)

Nice looking torts!

What are you housing them in?


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## KevinGG (Feb 28, 2017)

BILBO-03 said:


> Nice looking torts!
> 
> What are you housing them in?



Thanks. They are housed in 24 square foot plywood tortoise shelving units. The male also has a separate area to give females a break and to help induce breeding behavior. In a month or two, they will move outdoors to large pens.


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## KevinGG (Feb 28, 2017)

Today's meal: Chicory with a sprinkling of wheatgrass. 




The Greeks get two plates. It can get cramped around a little plate. 




The is the smaller female going to work, one sprig at a time. 




Biggest female is on the left. She's also the darkest of the lot. Male on the right. 




And I'll give my lonely male Russian a little love since he doesn't have his own thread.


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## KevinGG (Feb 28, 2017)

Chicory with wheatgrass to top it off. Same as the Greeks. 




I put that off to the side and gave both of them a quick soak. 




The male went off, but the female wasted no time. Look at that cheek.


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## Tom (Feb 28, 2017)

As I read the thread, all I can hear is the B-52s song in my head…





Yes. I still listen to 80's music. And I like it too!


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## KevinGG (Feb 28, 2017)

Wow. That was a deep experience.


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## Raymo2477 (Mar 2, 2017)

This is my Sardianan, Alois, I got him from Chris last summer.


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## KevinGG (Mar 2, 2017)

I've been trying to soak these guys everyday, until they get totally accustomed to the new habitat. I've noticed they've taken a while to figure out the terra cotta saucers (Chris uses pie tins). One thing I hadn't expected was the size of the poo from these guys, or rather the female and the Greeks. I'm used to my small Russian and box turtle poops, but these must be three times bigger! The big females broke my small electric scale, so I ordered a much larger one. I'm thinking that I'll start posting weights here. Might be fun to see the weight gain in gravid females and the subsequent weight loss. Anyways, today's meal was chicory, dandelion, red and white clover, and strawberry leaf.


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## bouaboua (Mar 2, 2017)

Very nice looking torts! ! ! !


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## KevinGG (Mar 2, 2017)

This is starting to get redundant.  I'd like to merge this and the "Sardinian Hermanni Hermanni" thread. If a moderator reads this, please PM me. Maybe they could be combined under the Mediterranean section with a new joint title. 

Meal for the day: chicory, dandelion, red/white clover, and strawberry leaf.




Tortoise tongues fascinate me. 




Notice the gash between the last vertebral and supercaudal in the larger female. This was already present when purchased. Evidence of what can happen in breeding groups if not monitored closely.


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## KevinGG (Mar 3, 2017)

Thanks to @Yvonne G , both threads are now one. Thanks Yvonne. 

I ran out of Mazuri yesterday, so I picked up ZooMeds Grassland Tortoise Food. They hated it. They didn't even like it a little bit. ZooMeds Tortoise food to my tortoises is the Mazuri LS to most other tortoises. (My tortoises actually like, or rather eat, LS.) The Hermanns picked out the weeds and left the rest. 




This is what the Greeks did. 




In the end, all that was left was the remnants of a failed Zoomed diet and the weeds that took thirty minutes to find. 










I also have some big news. You know how we thought we had mostly figured out how to prevent pyramiding? Turns out it isn't moist conditions and proper basic care, it's this Zoomed diet. Yup. It says so right here: 




You're all idiots...

At least they acknowledged humidity in the fine print.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Mar 3, 2017)

Very interesting thread. 
Hope to see it continue.


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## KevinGG (Mar 3, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Very interesting thread.
> Hope to see it continue.



Thanks Tidgy's Dad. I'm going to try and post something everyday. Will start on construction of outdoor enclosures soon.


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## KevinGG (Mar 4, 2017)

Today's Meal: Dandelion Greens. That's it. No combination today. I want to take a walk around our property with a botanist as the tortoise diet is really limited to what I can recognize. Yesterday, I planted a large area with chicory, dandelion, plantain, California poppy, coneflower, red and white clover, sowthistle, purslane, and wheatgrass. Hopefully we'll get a little more rain soon. Just a little bit though. Either tomorrow or Monday, I'll post pictures of the closet that was converted into the indoor enclosures. Finishing up the last one and going to take pictures of those last few steps. Building a large box is pretty self explanatory. I'm always saying this, but I'll start using the good camera for this thread (maybe). Here are the tortoises shot with the iPhone: 








She's camera shy...




I'll send you off with a tiny bit of tongue


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## KevinGG (Mar 4, 2017)

Hm. For some reason that last picture is hanging around. Doesn't show up when I try to edit it out. Well, you'll just have to deal with it.


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## KevinGG (Mar 5, 2017)

I finally did it. I pulled out the real camera. Well, for the tortoise pictures at least. The plant pictures are done on the iPhone. Todays meal is a smorgasbord. A mix of weeds and traditional greens from our garden. Running low on the weeds. Going to have to start venturing off of the property. Meal consisted of kale, chard, tree collards, chicory, dandelion, strawberry leaves, and red and white clover.



It's going to be a while until they have chicory again.







Nope. That's not my finger, it's a terra-cotta pot hide.


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## KevinGG (Mar 6, 2017)

Today we have two different types of dandelion, kale, and tree collards. 




These tree collards are huge! 




If you garden, you should have a tree collard (sometimes called tree kale). They grow very large, perennial, and can handle frost. These are ours after only one year. They were seedlings when we began. 




And the tortoises:


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## KevinGG (Mar 8, 2017)

Today: Mazuri LS, ZooMed Grassland, cactus, kale, tree collards, and dandelion. 




Chopped up the greens and intended to dice the cactus. Unfortunately, I put it in my blender instead of my food processor. I ended up with liquid cactus. So I decided to add some dry pellets to thicken it up. This worked perfectly and created a very nutritious topping for the greens. I may actually start to do this regularly as the tortoises loved it. End result was similar to a moistened pellet.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Mar 16, 2017)

I love this thread.
Excellent.


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## Franco F (Mar 19, 2017)

Great thread and beautiful tortoises!


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## Anyfoot (Mar 24, 2017)

Nice looking torts Kevin.


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## KevinGG (May 4, 2017)

So much for once a day...

I've been busy working on the outdoor enclosures of these species as well as the box and aquatic turtle species. Will just post a few pictures now as I would prefer to go in depth with the better camera. Here they are:

Hermanns on the left, Greeks on the right. 




Close-Up of Hermanns




And Greeks



Enclosures, of course, will fill out in time. Plants and seeds are just starting to grow. Seen very little breeding behavior, so I don't expect eggs this year. Like I said, I'll post a more in depth look soon. Thanks for reading.


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## Greta16 (May 4, 2017)

They've got it made!


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## KevinGG (May 4, 2017)

Thanks. 

Last pic of Greek enclosure uploaded at the bottom for some reason. Hm


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## Alicia Hoogstra (May 4, 2017)

Wow! When are you available to come to MI and build ours? Lolol


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (May 4, 2017)

Love this thread. Look at those yummy salad pictures! 
Good info being shared.


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## KevinGG (May 4, 2017)

Thank you both. Will try to get back into posting regularly. Daily seems like a stretch though. Gets redundant very quickly.


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## KevinGG (May 13, 2017)

5 plants in here: Guesses?


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## CalifornianReptile (May 13, 2017)

awesome! I love this topic. I'm also doing the same thing with greek tortoises. Have you noticed any greek tortoise breeding behaviors? I also got my tortoises from Chris Leone.


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## KevinGG (May 13, 2017)

CalifornianReptile said:


> awesome! I love this topic. I'm also doing the same thing with greek tortoises. Have you noticed any greek tortoise breeding behaviors? I also got my tortoises from Chris Leone.



Yes. I haven't seen any successful attempts, but the male has chased and rammed that black female (pictured above) a few times. She's good at getting away though. Hopefully, later in the season, she'll get in the mood.


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## CalifornianReptile (May 14, 2017)

KevinGG said:


> Yes. I haven't seen any successful attempts, but the male has chased and rammed that black female (pictured above) a few times. She's good at getting away though. Hopefully, later in the season, she'll get in the mood.


Ok! Do you mind if I post a topic similar to yours but with my Tortoises? Thanks!


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## KevinGG (May 14, 2017)

CalifornianReptile said:


> Ok! Do you mind if I post a topic similar to yours but with my Tortoises? Thanks!



Of course I mind! There's only room for one Testudo breeding thread on the forum. You snooze you lose....


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## KevinGG (May 14, 2017)

Just kidding, by the way. Nothing on this forum is original anymore. Look forward to seeing your thread


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## CalifornianReptile (May 14, 2017)

KevinGG said:


> Just kidding, by the way. Nothing on this forum is original anymore. Look forward to seeing your thread


lol.. Thank you very much! At least we can now share our progress together. I'll be posting soon!


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## KevinGG (May 17, 2017)

I thought it might be nice to show the outdoor enclosures in more depth. I'll start with the Testudos, but I'll also show the juvenile box turtle enclosures. It's my thread, so I'll include whatever turtles I want. Deal with it. 

I'll start with the Mesopotamian (Golden) Greeks: Testudo Graeca Terrestris. 




These guys have a really big enclosure. I don't know the exact size, but it is somewhere around 800 square feet. You can see from the picture above that about a third of that is shaded by a young oak tree. You can also see lots of thin cuts of an oak tree trunk. These were not initially to stay in the enclosure but they have proved to be good additions. They can be stacked to provide shade, leaned against one another to provide small hides, and they are great sight barriers. I have seen both females elude the male by weaving in between the logs. 








As you've probably noticed, I use a lot of straw. Greeks, and most Testudos, will burry themselves, rather than use hides. I've found that the straw creates a much cooler microclimate than plants. I've measured 60 degrees under straw in full sun on warm days. Even in the cold frames, the ground beneath the straw can stay cool. So, especially on hot days, the tortoises will dig down and burrow into it. 






I also use plastic pots cut in half as underground burrows. The Greeks rarely use these, but they provide a cool area and a good escape for the females from the male. 




In addition to the logs, straw, and burrows, there are different plants in the enclosure that can provide shade, especially as they mature. Plants in the enclosure include:

Salvia Leucantha




Lavandula Dentata




Morus Nigra




And various weeds, including poppy, chickweed, and clover for browsing. 

Of course water is provided daily. I like to use large terra cotta saucers. There are three water dishes in the enclosure. One per tortoise.




And for the cooler days, especially important for Goldens, is the cold frame. T.graeca terrestris are generally said to be less cold tolerant than other Greeks. I place the cold frames in a spot that gets sun first thing in the morning and throughout the afternoon. Inside the cold frame, half of the floor space is covered in straw. They seem to avoid staying inside if there is nothing to burrow into. 






And lastly, escape proofing. These guys have been a breeze, unlike the Hermanni. No escape attempts, but enclosures are still escape proof. All walls have either pavers or wire extended into the ground to prevent escapes. And, of course, all corners are capped. 

Thanks for reading. Will share the Hermanni enclosure next.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (May 17, 2017)

KevinGG said:


> Yes. I haven't seen any successful attempts, but the male has chased and rammed that black female (pictured above) a few times. She's good at getting away though. Hopefully, later in the season, she'll get in the mood.


This is why it's better to have a trio then a pair . You can see bulling starting . See how the one tort is trying to control the food :


And here it's won the other tort is walking to the other dish :


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## KevinGG (May 17, 2017)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> This is why it's better to have a trio then a pair . You can see bulling starting . See how the one tort is trying to control the food :
> View attachment 207747
> 
> And here it's won the other tort is walking to the other dish :
> View attachment 207748



Thanks Grandpa. Well aware. The Greeks are actually a 1.2 trio. And the Hermanns have separate enclosures. They were kept together for the first few weeks of this thread while the larger enclosures were being built.

As to the quoted post, its breeding season. Ramming is totally typical. Pls take a look at the Greek enclosure above. Well designed and more than one female. Thanks for looking out for the torts.


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## CalifornianReptile (May 17, 2017)

Awesome!


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## KevinGG (May 19, 2017)

Today is Endangered Species Day. Here are some pics of Testudo Hermanni Hermanni.


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## Alicia Hoogstra (May 19, 2017)

Thanks for the great pictures!!


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## KevinGG (Jun 9, 2017)

Don't think I ever showed any of the new indoor enclosures. This is the female Hermanni habitat. Freshly (fake) planted and misted. 






These new enclosures are in a closet. As you can tell, I put the hinge on backwards. Will have to redo it at some point. Not showing the others until they are fully "planted" as well. Each one is about 7' x 3.5'. 








The nesting box has a mix of topsoil, sand, and peat moss. 




Also installed a bathroom fan that can be turned on to prevent high humidity and/or any smells that can come from tortoise enclosures. Basically the same reason one would use it in a bathroom. Air gaps were installed every 18" to allow air to move between levels. 






And one of the best things about keeping these in a closet is that There is a pocket door that can be closed to hide all of the enclosures.


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## MichaelaW (Jun 9, 2017)

Very impressive!


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## Yelloweyed (Jun 9, 2017)

Yes! We always want to maintain the illusion what we aren't tort-crazy!


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## KevinGG (Jun 9, 2017)

Yelloweyed said:


> Yes! We always want to maintain the illusion what we aren't tort-crazy!



Exactly. A couple chelonians out in the open is fine. The other twenty should remain out of sight.


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## KevinGG (Jun 26, 2017)

Lots of breeding these past few days. Most attempts are on video, so I won't be able to post them (you won't get to hear the high pitched moans of a male Testudo), but here is one crooked attempt.


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## CalifornianReptile (Jul 6, 2017)

wow amazing! your keeping them inside?


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## KevinGG (Jul 6, 2017)

Outside during the day, inside at night. That photo was early AM before they went out.


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## MichaelaW (Aug 18, 2017)

How is the group doing?


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## KevinGG (Oct 10, 2017)

MichaelaW said:


> How is the group doing?



Just saw this. Groups are doing well, but no eggs. They are spending more time indoors as temps begin to cool down. Here are some photos:









And the contest entry:


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## KevinGG (Oct 19, 2017)




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## KevinGG (Oct 21, 2017)

I thought I’d share some breeding success from today. Still time to get viable eggs, especially since they will be kept warm all winter long. If not, I am feeling confident about the spring since so much breeding has been going on. Here are some blurry pictures from today. 






If you’d like to see video of these events and better pictures, head over to my Instagram @theturtleisyou Thanks for looking


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## Taylor T. (Oct 22, 2017)

I always like seeing your enclosures. You make them so nice.


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## KevinGG (Oct 23, 2017)

Taylor T. said:


> I always like seeing your enclosures. You make them so nice.



Thank you.  That’s very kind.


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## Franco F (Oct 24, 2017)

@KevinGG Your indoor enclosures are so awesome! Where did you acquire the fake plants? I have a couple from Petco, but they're noticeably fake.


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## KevinGG (Oct 24, 2017)

Franco F said:


> @KevinGG Your indoor enclosures are so awesome! Where did you acquire the fake plants? I have a couple from Petco, but they're noticeably fake.



Haha. Thank you. I buy all of them online from the arts and crafts store, Michaels. They sell plants connected to picks that slide easily into the substrate.


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## Kaliman1962 (Oct 26, 2017)

KevinGG said:


> Haha. Thank you. I buy all of them online from the arts and crafts store, Michaels. They sell plants connected to picks that slide easily into the substrate.


Do the torts try to eat the fake plants? i want to get some for my Greek


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## Tidgy's Dad (Oct 26, 2017)

Kaliman1962 said:


> Do the torts try to eat the fake plants? i want to get some for my Greek


It seems some Greeks do and some don't. 
I use real spider plants myself.


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## KevinGG (Oct 26, 2017)

Kaliman1962 said:


> Do the torts try to eat the fake plants? i want to get some for my Greek



I haven’t noticed any of my tortoises attempt it. The plants are very tough and can’t be bitten off. An ingenious tortoise might figure out how to swallow a leaf though.


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## CalifornianReptile (Jan 3, 2018)

@KevinGG wow! awesome! how would you recommend to encourage them to breed? i moved my greek tortoises indoors since its way to cold for them to be housed outside.


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## KevinGG (Jan 7, 2018)

CalifornianReptile said:


> @KevinGG wow! awesome! how would you recommend to encourage them to breed? i moved my greek tortoises indoors since its way to cold for them to be housed outside.



There are several things you can do. Greeks, for the most part, tend to be pretty straightforward. You can separate the males and introduce in the spring and fall, lower temps overnight, give them a good misting. But for the most part, come spring they know what to do.


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