# moss peat as substrate



## Edita (Jan 15, 2009)

Hi

my vet told me if I want to change substrate I should use sterilized moss peat.
Well I did and now it seems they really like it. the only thing is they have it all over... If I want to keep it moist it is sticky and getting into everything.
Does anybody have experience with this kind of substrate and do tortoises mind moss all over... bit on the food, bit in the water? (I keep food separated but sure they go inside...  )

thanks a lot


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## HermanniChris (Jan 16, 2009)

I have never used peat moss as a substrate. It's not the safest for them as far as accidental ingestion of it since it obviously gets stuck to everything. Although humidity is very important to Hermann's tortoises and especially youngsters, this can be achieved other ways as well. Creating a humid hide, frequent soaks and baths, mistings and of course a water dish (kept clean) will help. The tortoises probably do not "mind" having it all over them as digging and burrowing are natural behaviors and many are often caked with dirt from coming out of the ground. However, since it is very messy it can and will get stuck to food itmes very easily and you should be sure the animals are not consuming a lot of it. A bedding of aspen, or a soil/sand mix is best for these tortoises, but again I have never tried this substrate with this species. Hope this helps. 
-Chris


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## Edita (Jan 16, 2009)

Thank you...
well it seems there are milion sizes to moss peat... and I had the smallest one 
I went to pet shop and bought tree bark for reptiles... big enough so they can't eat it... it is a bit strange with heating cause I have heating of the floor and it is not so good in conducting heat. and it is not so warm now. But I can't put it out cause it is not ok for them to be in contact with warm wire without supervision 
so.... but they have a basket in which they sleep (funny but every night they sleep there and it is quite warm inside)- they are mild warm on touch when they are sleeping now... is it ok? over the day they have UV lamp and also one lamp for heating.... but I am not leaving it on when nobody is home cause of flipping over under it. well in my room is 24 at least so... they are definitely not cold. but just for check up 

thanks


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## HermanniChris (Jan 16, 2009)

Can you post a photo of your enclosure for us? The two things that I'm seeing a potential problem with are the bedding and what do you mean by heating of the floor? Heat pad?


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## Edita (Jan 16, 2009)

I will post it tomorrow. It is a heating wire on the floor covered with alu foliage (sorry for bad english) and over it is that tree bark. It is specialized for tortoises and I checked all over if it is suited for small Hermanni. The vet gave her blessing  
Temperature sounds ok? how warm they are? when it was warmer they moved to sleep in colder part (it is a big enclosure 1x1m and half part is heated)...


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## Edita (Jan 18, 2009)

hi

Sorry for being bit late...
here are the photos, this is my bigger one  Kreso... he is two and a half  
for me it seems they really like it like this. 
As you can see you can't notice the heating cause it is under the bark.

So what do you think?


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## Ozric (Jan 18, 2009)

I use some sphagnum moss indoors but not as a substrate on its own. I have some clumps of it lying about on the tortoise table and I also keep some sphagnum moss damp in a hide they can go in when they want. I think it can be useful but not on its own. I don't think sphagnum moss is poisonous at all, but mine never eat it. 

I use a mixture of playsand and topsoil as the basic substrate. The only problem with it that I've had is the fact its heavy. It can get too dry if its never watered. I load it into seed trays and this means I can take a tray out and water the substrate thoroughly from time to time to maintain some humidity.

I'm not in favour of the underfloor heating. There can a build up of heat under the substrate and other problems. If its a warm room and you have a spot lamp for heat and a UV tube then I would think you don't need the under heating at all. 

Nice photos, the sleeping quarters look good to me. 

Some people use readigrass as a substrate here in the UK but I've not tried it.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 18, 2009)

I really like those straw/reed (?) hiding places. Where on earth did you find something like that? I don't know about using peat moss, but a lot of folks use coconut coir, which looks a little like peat moss. 

Yvonne


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## Edita (Jan 19, 2009)

hi

as you could see on pics this is pine bark I have now and they seem to like it. They can't eat it so that part is covered  and no moss peat. It is clumsy cause when wet it get all over food and water so...

Hiding places.. those are baskets that are used for walls, like flat one one side and round on the other. You can find it like in every shopping center with accessories for homes. They usually come in few sizes which is convenient


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## Isa (Jan 19, 2009)

Really nice enclosure Edita,
I really like your idea of a half basket for walls as a hide 
Thanks for sharing.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 19, 2009)

Edita said:


> as you could see on pics this is pine bark I have now and they seem to like it. They can't eat it so that part is covered



I don't think your bark is pine bark...pine is usually lighter in color. But just in case, keep a close watch on your little guys' eyes, as pine oil is pretty harsh and usually causes weeping, swollen eyes. 

Yvonne


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## Edita (Jan 19, 2009)

Ok thanks, but this bark is especially for reptiles and by that I mean tortoises. For now they don't seem to mind. And on the bag it sais pine bark


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## tortoisenerd (Jan 19, 2009)

If it actually says pine bark on the bag, I'd personally change it out. I also googled pine bark, and chips the same shape and color of yours showed up. Pine used for a substrate is toxic to torts (and it's also been shown for small animals like mice or hamsters), and sometimes they may not show symptoms at first (or at all) but it can build up in their system. Better safe than sorry. 

Sometimes even products marketed for reptiles are still bad...manufacturers always don't have the best interests of the animal in mind and just want to make money. For example, manufacturers produce stuff like reptile sand and foods with junk ingredients. Pet stores recommend aquariums and all sorts of "bad" products for torts. It's sad but true.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 19, 2009)

When anyone says pine substrate to me I have a panic attack! Pine is TOXIC to tortoises, no if ands or buts! Within 4 months of having 3 small Sulcata on pine substrate one was dead, one was having swollen and weepy eyes and the third spent the next couple of years growing nicely but with serious eye problems the end result is he is totally blind in his left eye with diminished sight in his right. I spent several thousands of dollars at the Vet trying to care for his poor eyes. Sometimes during a flare up his eyes would hurt so bad he would drool making a whining noise as he'd lay with his head out and down on the substrate. I don't think that I have ever treated a tortoise who hurt so bad you could actually see the hurt. He'd be so hurt and I'd just cry at how he looked and it was totally my fault. That's how I learned that pine is toxic for tortoises...so I always tell that to a new keeper...NO PINE!!!
If that package says it's safe for tortoise it probably is...but if it says the contents are made from pine I'd throw it out immediately...


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## Edita (Jan 19, 2009)

Guys, what should I change it to? Come on, I did my research, talked to the vet who is actually specialized in reptiles... This is the best choice I have. Soil is frozen outside so I can't go and dig some out  I will keep and eye on them, but this is the best option I have. It says it is safe for tortoises and for next 2 months at least it is the best I can get them.

Edita


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## Ozric (Jan 20, 2009)

*substrate for hermann*

Edita I think you should consider Aspen shavings. I've never used it but I know lots of tortoise keepers use it and have no problems. I don't have any experience with pine, but I know that over here (the UK) it is not recommended for tortoises.

After reading what other people said about pine, I personally would throw that out and if I had to just use newspaper for a short time I would do that. 

Does anyone in the states use Readigrass? Its taken off here amongst tortoise keepers after most of us stopped using hemp. 





Edita said:


> Guys, what should I change it to? Come on, I did my research, talked to the vet who is actually specialized in reptiles... This is the best choice I have. Soil is frozen outside so I can't go and dig some out  I will keep and eye on them, but this is the best option I have. It says it is safe for tortoises and for next 2 months at least it is the best I can get them.
> 
> Edita


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## HermanniChris (Jan 20, 2009)

Regardless of what a vet says, you are getting responses here from tortoise keepers. People who focus either solely on one species or keep several. When speaking to any veterinarian, you must keep in mind that their knowledge is usually general and although they may know how to treat reptiles, they may not know specifics on care for a particular species of tortoise such as hermann's tortoise. Pine is not receommended. There are plenty of reasons why not to use it and even though some may report that they have had success with it, you really should keep in mind that the reason why people are telling you to stay away from it is because there have been PROBLEMS with it. The oils from it can possibly cause irritation, and if it is ingested you have a bigger problem potentially. As already stated, aspen or soil/sand mix is best. Rabbit or alfalfa pellets will work well for the time being and as Ozric stated, newspaper makes a suitable substrate atleast until you can locate something better. 

I also want to point out that just because it says it's for tortoises on the bag does not mean it's your best choice at all. There are several reptile products out there made for these animals that most people won't even go near because they can cause harm or even kill a tortoise. Heat rocks were made for reptiles, yet they probably killed more than anything else. This is a great place to really learn about many species of tortoise and you have the opportunity to speak with people who have years and years of experience with these animals. 

By the way, the set up looks great, nice and clean. 
-Chris


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## Edita (Jan 20, 2009)

Thanks everybody again... but for some time I will stay with this... if somebody wants to know why read more :/

I am a biologist and I know what is in news papers. I wouldn't let any animal or live being sleep or live in that. I am not a newbie. The fact I don't have many posts doesn't mean I have no idea of anything so please... and my vet is a zoo vet and also keeper of reptiles. I know we all want best for our "kids" but mine was just out of antibiotics for no good reason. And by that I mean somebody is home at least 6h of their wake up time, taking care of them, and I mean listen to their breathing, taking care of their eyes, nose... and she got sick, the older one-kreso didn't but she did. you can say now taking care of them doesn't mean anything... but my conditions were like from the book and you all know that doesn't have to mean anything. But my symptoms were not enough for any advice....I wrote few posts on sneezing and I got no reply and my kid ended up on medications cause she had problem breathing. So we can all keep tortoises but doc is a doc and since we changed the soil to that bark which is so wrong she got a lot of weight and honestly I had to give her oral antibiotics cause she was too small for injections. 
I feel like a mom, I adore them and you all know we will do our best. I will keep an eye on their eyes more than usually which I assure you is everyday. I will take even more care. But for now I need to see her breathing is ok, she is not sneezing and she is gaining weight. 
To be melodramatic I will say it is easy to say do this or that... I didn't sleep for 2weeks cause I was hearing her sneeze at night and nobody could tell me why.. she ate normaly, moved... check the post if you want. So now, she is not sneezing, she is better and I just don't want to keep her in a box until that "soil" comes cause I live in a country where pine bark for tortoises is the best you can get (and Hermanni are native here). 

Thanks everybody again, and I apologize if I was rude


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## tortoisenerd (Jan 20, 2009)

I have a few ideas for you to look into:
-aspen shavings or chips (sold either as snake bedding or for small animal bedding like for mice; make sure not to get a mix of wood as you only want the pure aspen)
-coconut fiber/coir (sold in the U.S. under Bed-A-Beast or Eco Earth to assist your search; it can be mixed with play sand which is the chunkier stuff and not the "tasty" reptile sand)
-organic potting soil (I can find it here in the U.S. even in winter; mix with play sand if you like)

I would personally not recommend alfalfa pellets due to the high protein content in case of ingestion, the fact that they roll around (hard to gain footing on for the tort), and too dry. I used newspaper for a bit and didn't like it. Paper towels are an option but of course that's more for a hospital environment if the tort is sick.

Of course this is your personal decision. All of us here are just trying to help and point out a potential serious health problem for your tort. Feel free to help us help you find something suitable and available where you live...I am not familiar with what is available in Croatia. The products such as coconut fiber or aspen could be ordered online from the U.S. if possible.


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## Kristina (Jan 21, 2009)

Here is an article on substrates from A.C. Highfield of the Tortoise Trust.

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/substrates.html


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## Crazy1 (Jan 21, 2009)

Edita said:


> Guys, what should I change it to? Come on, I did my research, talked to the vet who is actually specialized in reptiles... This is the best choice I have. Soil is frozen outside so I can't go and dig some out  I will keep and eye on them, but this is the best option I have. It says it is safe for tortoises and for next 2 months at least it is the best I can get them.
> 
> Edita





Edita said:


> Thanks everybody again... but for some time I will stay with this... if somebody wants to know why read more :/
> 
> I am a biologist and I know what is in news papers. I wouldn't let any animal or live being sleep or live in that. I am not a newbie. The fact I don't have many posts doesn't mean I have no idea of anything so please... and my vet is a zoo vet and also keeper of reptiles. I know we all want best for our "kids" but mine was just out of antibiotics for no good reason. And by that I mean somebody is home at least 6h of their wake up time, taking care of them, and I mean listen to their breathing, taking care of their eyes, nose... and she got sick, the older one-kreso didn't but she did. you can say now taking care of them doesn't mean anything... but my conditions were like from the book and you all know that doesn't have to mean anything. But my symptoms were not enough for any advice....I wrote few posts on sneezing and I got no reply and my kid ended up on medications cause she had problem breathing. So we can all keep tortoises but doc is a doc and since we changed the soil to that bark which is so wrong she got a lot of weight and honestly I had to give her oral antibiotics cause she was too small for injections.
> I feel like a mom, I adore them and you all know we will do our best. I will keep an eye on their eyes more than usually which I assure you is everyday. I will take even more care. But for now I need to see her breathing is ok, she is not sneezing and she is gaining weight.
> ...



Hi Edita, I have been following this thread. Danny did answer your thread on sneezing. It is of course up to you as a tort owner whether to use any specific substrate, heat rock, lamp, whatever. Several members have shared with you their knowledge and thoughts regarding substrates. I am sure every one of us wishes you and your little one well. I am sorry she ended up ill but am happy she is recovering; And yes I agree with most of the people on the forum who have answered this thread I do not use anything that contains Pine, Douglas Fir or Cedar. I know some people swear by the use of dried pine (state the oils are out of it and it is safe). I personally would not chance it even if my vet (and yes he is a Tortoise vet and I trust him) told me it was OK. There are always other solutions. And many have been suggested in this thread. I don't think you are trying to be rude, I think you are taking an easy route and only time will tell if it is best for your torts. I personally have even been out in the pouring rain digging dirt and drying it in my oven to provide a good substrate. But again this is your choice and from your response you obviously only want what is best for your torts and I have to respect that. I wish you and your torts only the best.


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## Edita (Jan 21, 2009)

I read all the treads again and I realized you treat all the tortoises the same about like what bothers one has to bother the other. I did some research and native range of Testudo hermanni and geobotanical range of Pines overlap and there for it is normal/natural for testudo tortoises to encounter Pines all over their natural habitat. Also I did some research with reptile specialist here and they didn't find Testudo with problems cause of Pine bark. 
Did anybody have actual problems with them? 
So yes, I am staying with pine bark for now. I will keep you informed about status. I don't want to say some tortoises might have problems with it (or certainly) but I am just saying Testudo doesn't have to be putt into the same group with them.

Edita

And about sneezing reply- you kind of underestimate "newbies". She was on vitamins. Extra since she started sneezing, Vit C being the first added to the list.


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## HermanniChris (Jan 21, 2009)

It has in fact been proven that various members of the Testudo group can and do have problems related to pine and even more so with cedar. Their natural habitat really does not have much to do with this. We keep these animals in contained and restricted quarters. In the wild a tortoise is not forced to stay on one particular substrate. If it wants to move off the pine into leaves, or create scrapes under a shrub or move onto a rocky area it can. In a wooden box with pine as the main bedding it has no escape so yes it can affect the animal without a doubt. Testudo hermanni in their native range may occupy several different areas such as Medterranean oak forest, scrub land, rocky hill-sides, open fields, and even farm land. They are of course a rather hardy and adaptive species but do fall victim to problems associated with poor husbandry. Now I am by no means saying you are caring for your tortoises poorly, I can tell you care for them very much, however we have warned you about the dangers concerning this type of substrate and that is the point of these forums. To simply inform. I have kept T. hermanni on cypress, pine and other types of bark and after a long period the tortoises all developed eye problems and wheezed at a considerable volume. One particular young animal could be heard wheezing from another room. That was about a decade ago and since, any tortoises in my care have all been kept on the other indoor substrates recommended with access to naturalistic pens in summer.

As we've said, just watch them closely and if you notice a change, then it is time to switch to a new bedding no matter what it takes to obtain it. Do I think your tortoises are going to suddenly die? No not at all, but the problem affiliated with these animals is that many times we do not realize something is wrong until it is way too late. The point is to not let it get to that point.

Again, just trying to help because it is real life experience and also extensive research that allows us to come up with what is good and bad for our tortoises.


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## Kristina (Jan 21, 2009)

Edita said:


> I read all the treads again and I realized you treat all the tortoises the same about like what bothers one has to bother the other.
> Edita
> 
> And about sneezing reply- you kind of underestimate "newbies". She was on vitamins. Extra since she started sneezing, Vit C being the first added to the list.



So, you read every thread on this forum and concluded that we care for all species the same?

And as for underestimating newbies, I am sorry, but if you do not want help or opinions, why are you asking for it? If you already knew that you were going to use pine bark and not "moss peat," then why did you ask about it in the first place? If you were not going to listen to our opinions, why ask them and then get defensive when we do not agree with you?

We have no idea how experienced a newbie is. We are trying to HELP and you are being, in my opinion, a bit ridiculus about it. Ever stopped to think that we might have your "kids" best interest in mind? No, you just think we are picking at you. Get over yourself, please.

As to pine trees growing in the natural range of the tortoises, so what???? Are torts climbing pine trees now and living among the branches and sap and oils like squirrels? Like Chris said, "In the wild a tortoise is not forced to stay on one particular substrate. If it wants to move off the pine into leaves, or create scrapes under a shrub or move onto a rocky area it can. In a wooden box with pine as the main bedding it has no escape so yes it can affect the animal without a doubt." Could not have said it better myself. 

I posted a great article on substrates that clearly states the dangers of pine, written by someone that is much more experienced than you and I. I bet he wrote those opinions just to pick on you, too.

Kristina


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## Ozric (Jan 21, 2009)

Hey! On a lighter note, newspaper is sterile. It hasn't got a single germ or anything on it at all, just paper and ink. Which is why Howard Hughes demanded that his dinner be served on it when he became rather unwell and had an obsessive disorder about cleanliness.

But, I'm not promoting newspaper as a substrate - no money to be made there.

We have really livened up this board with this issue, and I've enjoyed it. Even if I am a bit concerned about Edita feeling criticised, when nobody meant it that way.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 21, 2009)

Edita, I am hoping you have your animals best interest at heart. So I am kind of concerned when I tell you that in my own experience one hatchling died and another was blinded by the toxins in a pine mulch substrate and you don't seem to accept the seriousness of what I am telling you. I personally don't ever want to go thru that experience again, and wouldn't wish that experience on my worst enemy. When you say you don't have an option I am kinda skeptical...there are always options. Aspen shavings are sold in all pet stores. Sterile potting soil is sold in all big box stores in the garden department. Chain pet stores like Petco or Petsmart all sell eco-earth, or coir...Having no substrate at all is better than having a blind or dead animal as was my experience and could be your experience also.


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## Edita (Jan 21, 2009)

I will get over myself. 
I took all your comments in and I will do my best.

Thank you


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## tortoisenerd (Jan 22, 2009)

We're here to help so let us know if we can do anything. At least speaking for myself I'm an internet and tortoise addict. Best wishes.


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