# Kale but not Spinach?



## DoctorCosmonaut (Jul 10, 2009)

Kale is okay right? I know not to feed spinach.


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## chadk (Jul 10, 2009)

Spinach is actually OK if fed in small quantities as part of a varied diet.


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## Itort (Jul 10, 2009)

Kale also needs to feed in limited quanities as it also will bind calcium.


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## Madkins007 (Jul 10, 2009)

Sprinkle a little calcium on it and feed away- as a part of a varied diet.

Kale has a 2.4:1 Ca: P ratio which is quite good, and only about 0.2 units of oxalic acid (the calcium-binding agent) which is quite low. The traditional problem with kale, cabbage, and other 'brassicas' is that they are low in other nutrients that were thought to contribute to goiters. This is not true when they are used in a healthy diet mix.

Spinach has had a bad rep for years, but it is MOSTLY not deserved. This stuff has a good 2.1:1 Ca: P (anything over 2:1 is good), good levels of vitamins and iron, etc.- but it DOES have a high level of oxalic acid- about .97 units. This amount of oxalic acid reduces the effective Ca: P to about 0.5:1.

We can counter a low Ca: P by offering some high calcium foods (Arugula 3:1, Collards 14.5:1 but with about .45 oxalic acid, dandelions 2.8:1, etc.) or adding a dash of calcium powder. (As long as the tortoises have OK heat, get some D3 in the diet or from light, and are properly hydrated, and you don't get stupid with the amounts, there is almost no risk of overdoing the calcium.)

Here is the MAIN ISSUE: Years ago, a lot of diets were 'just give it some (cabbage, or lettuce, or spinach) and some water and it will be fine.' Dang- if you put almost ANY animal on a very limited selection of food, you are going to get problems. It was not the spinach or cabbage alone causing the problem- it was the lack of a good, varied, balanced diet.

Even the dread ICEBERG LETTUCE is OK in small amounts in a varied diet. The stuff has a low Ca: P (0.95:1) but it is high in moisture and nitrogen- and it makes a good 'filler' if the rest of the meal is nutritious. (Remember- in the wild, most tortoises fill up on lots of medium- to low-nutrition foods rather than the nutrient-rich stuff we often offer.)


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## lezsolt (Jul 11, 2009)

Is there a web page with all this Ca: P data? I'm very curious about the Ca: P ratios of several plants like white clover, chicory, chickweed, etc.


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## egyptiandan (Jul 11, 2009)

The thing is with plants that have an oxalic acid content is that the oxalic acid binds with calcium. This makes calcium oxalate which contributes to stone production. So as well as making the calcium unavailable, it can cause your tortoise to form stones when fed. So you really do have to watch out how much plant material you feed that has an oxalic acid content. I wouldn't feed anything with a medium to high content more than once a week, if that much.
They have done Ca/P ratios for plants we eat, but you will be hard pressed to find data on the ratios of plants we don't eat.

Danny


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## purpod (Jul 11, 2009)

Great thread: thanx to Danny & Madkins for their contributions ~

Be well,
Purpod


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## Crazy1 (Jul 11, 2009)

Here are some sites with CA ratio listed
http://www.tortoise.org/general/tntdiet.html
http://www.provet.co.uk/petfacts/healthtips/tortoisefeeding.htm
http://www.turtlestuff.com/avoidthese.html


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## Madkins007 (Jul 11, 2009)

egyptiandan said:


> The thing is with plants that have an oxalic acid content is that the oxalic acid binds with calcium. This makes calcium oxalate which contributes to stone production. So as well as making the calcium unavailable, it can cause your tortoise to form stones when fed. So you really do have to watch out how much plant material you feed that has an oxalic acid content. I wouldn't feed anything with a medium to high content more than once a week, if that much.
> They have done Ca/P ratios for plants we eat, but you will be hard pressed to find data on the ratios of plants we don't eat.
> 
> Danny



Stones: According to Dr. Mader, etc., it is not the presence of the calcium oxalates that are the main risk in stones, it is dehydration working on the calcium in various forms in the system. Other contributers to stones are thought to be vitamin A deficiency, too much animal protein in herbivores, etc.

Regarding oxalic acid/calcium oxalates- most reports of their contribution to health problems refer to HIGH levels, as are found in rhubarb leaves, deiffenbachia, etc. These reports consider spinach to have a medium level. 

Mike Pingleton makes an interesting observation in his new book- we make a lot of comments about the food our reptiles eat that we would NEVER make for human food. You don't skip spinach in your salad because of oxalates, or worry that too much cole slaw is going to give you goiter. 

Why don't we worry about this stuff- balance and variety. Good hydration (we are really not as dehydrated as the '8 big glasses of water a day' fadists would suggest), etc.

Why doesn't this work for tortoises? Actually, as far as we can tell, it does. 


Ca ratios of non-human foods: It takes some work, but I have found the ratios and other info on a lot of plants that are used in other countries, or that are used for domesticated animals, etc.

The Ca of some hays are:
- Red clover- 3.1:1
- Fescue- 1.4:1
I have not looked for the others, but I will.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jul 12, 2009)

Madkins007 said:


> Sprinkle a little calcium on it and feed away- as a part of a varied diet.
> 
> Kale has a 2.4:1 Ca: P ratio which is quite good, and only about 0.2 units of oxalic acid (the calcium-binding agent) which is quite low. The traditional problem with kale, cabbage, and other 'brassicas' is that they are low in other nutrients that were thought to contribute to goiters. This is not true when they are used in a healthy diet mix.
> 
> ...



Well if the problem is a variety of other nutrients that aren't present in kale, I always feed the kale with fruit (and occasional veggies) and a multivitamin (2:1 powder) on top. Does that compensate?


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 12, 2009)

For kale the goiter issue would worry me more than the vitamins. In the wild tort eat a very nutrient poor diet. I personally do not use a vitamin supplement as it is easy to over supplement and some vitamins are fat soluble and can become toxic in high quantities...it's difficult to know what quantity that will be. I feed kale in small amounts as the little one loves it, or else I'd probably even skip it.


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## Madkins007 (Jul 12, 2009)

Variety, variety, variety. The main thing kale is short on is iodine, which can be relieved by a pinch of salt- and iodine is not a huge need anyway.

In my own mind, I have three 'categories' of foods- really good, good, and OK. Spinach and kale rank in the OK group. I try to offer mostly really good stuff, and rotate in good and OK stuff. This week, for example, I am offering Escarole lettuce and kale. Last week, it was turnip greens and some curly lettuce. I put a pinch of calcium on the kale and lettuce.


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 12, 2009)

Do you ever use spring mix Madkins?


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jul 12, 2009)

spring mix? Like an organic salad mix?


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## Crazy1 (Jul 13, 2009)

Yep that is what spring mix is and it is great for torts especially little ones. easy to find a mix of greens and then supplement with other weeds. I feed kale and spinach to my adult Greeks and DT but I also give them Kelp which adds the Iodine without adding the processed salt. They seem to love the Kelp. I can get it in dried sheets at the petstores. I do however not feed kale or spinach to my hatchlings (they won't eat kale) or to my sub adults. Madkin funny I too have a list of foods I catorgize as good , ok , only occasionally and NEVER.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jul 13, 2009)

Great, because I eat the stuff too


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 13, 2009)

Yup! It's the easiest for variety for me and most of us on the forum. I then try to add one or two other higher nutrition greens (my little guy like mustard, dandelion, radish, small amounts of kale, etc). Some butternut squash weekly, whatever I can harvest from my tort food crop, and I call it good!


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## egyptiandan (Jul 14, 2009)

Some interesting reading about oxalic acid. http://growingtaste.com/oxalicacid.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid

Danny


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## Tortuslvr (Jul 15, 2009)

The key to feeding tortoise's is to think of them like your kids, be more concerned about a "varied" diet. You wouldn't feed them the same thing every day. That way if they are missing something from their diet one day perhaps they will get it another day! Mine being outside for the summer have all the grass, weeds and hay they want but about three times a week I take out chopped squash, or collard greens, or tomatoes from the garden, corn what ever it is a treat for them and added vitamins as well. In the winter I buy collard, turnip and mustard greens I rotate them thru out the week and use carrots, green beans, squash and other vegies-fruit for the red foots-for treats. It is always different they don't get bored with it and it gives them different nutrients. A Greasy cheese burger has some value to it, just shouldn't eat one every day, you know?


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## Madkins007 (Jul 15, 2009)

Do I feed Spring Mix? Not often- with my 5 torts, they go through a couple heads of greens or lettuces a week, so I just buy a couple different things each time. When the selection is poor, I pop for the mix.

The things I do not like about the mixes are:
- Cost. I feed my torts almost all of a head of lettuce or bunch of greens, and there is little waste. I generally spend about $3-4/week on greens, and would need about 3 bags of most mixes to get the same weight- or about $6-7 a week. Your mileage will vary.
- Calcium. Most of the greens in most bags are low in calcium- they average about 1.5:1, and I want 2:1 average or better. I could add a pinch of calcium to compensate if I wanted to.
- Life. In general, I can get almost 2 weeks from a properly stored batch of greens, while bagged mixes should be used in a few days.

Again- this is MY take on things. None of these is a big issue, and there are certainly 'pros' to the mixes, especially the ones with lots of endive, escarole, and arrugula.



 Crazy1 said:


> Yep that is what spring mix is and it is great for torts especially little ones. easy to find a mix of greens and then supplement with other weeds. I feed kale and spinach to my adult Greeks and DT but I also give them Kelp which adds the Iodine without adding the processed salt. They seem to love the Kelp. I can get it in dried sheets at the petstores. I do however not feed kale or spinach to my hatchlings (they won't eat kale) or to my sub adults. Madkin funny I too have a list of foods I catorgize as good , ok , only occasionally and NEVER.



What's on your NEVER list? (I have a never list as well, and am always curious to compare them!)


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jul 16, 2009)

both post your never lists please


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## Madkins007 (Jul 16, 2009)

My NEVER grocery store list is: Rhubarb, hot peppers, hamburger, baked goods and pastas, dairy products, processed meats, and not a lot else. 

There are a lot of foods I use RARELY and in small quantities, or have not used but people I respect have in small quantities. This would include nuts, olives, avacados, cereal-based foods and pellets, potatoes, citrus, etc. This list should be kept in context- they can but do not have to be used in small, occasional quantities as a part of an overall healthy diet- just like your doctor tells you about things like cake or ice cream. Most of these foods offer little nutritionally that I cannot get in other ways, but are not a risk in small amounts.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jul 17, 2009)

Olives? I hope you mean raw... otherwise they would have lethal amounts of sodium it seems


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## Crazy1 (Jul 17, 2009)

This is Most of my *NO* list.
Now remember I have herbivores. 
So no animal protein, unless they catch and eat a bug outdoors.
These are the Of course Nots: 
No baked goods, pastas or dairy. 
Now the plants:
No Rhubarb or their leaves, No leaves of the tomato, eggplant, potato or pepper plants, no onions (like red or Vidalia). No potatoes. No pothos, Bird of Paradise, Amaryllis Avocado leaves, no four-oÃ¢â‚¬â„¢clocks, Bottlebrush, Buttercup, calla lily, No Cherry tree leaves, Ivy, fiddle neck, hydrangea, holly, poinsettia, Iris, Morning Glories, oak leaves or acorns, Philodendron, Ranunculus, Snapdragon, tobacco plants, Oleander. 
No seeds (apple, pear, cherry, peach seeds, plum). No citrus fruit or folage. No olives or olive tree plant (I am allergic). No nuts.


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## Madkins007 (Jul 17, 2009)

Just FYI- olives- raw or fresh, or well-rinsed and only in SMALL AMOUNTS. Note that I do not use most of the things in my 'rarely' list, but I'm not going to freak out if an olive falls in my mixed veggies box when I am at the deli salad bar, etc. 

Robyn- I know you limit fruit in general to your torts, but I am wondering about the seeds of fruits. I know most torts pass whole seeds complete, and are even considered useful in seed dispersal. I also know that many seeds are toxic in quantity if they are cracked. 

My question is are they on your list because of the theoretical risk, or have torts been made ill from them?


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## Maggie Cummings (Jul 17, 2009)

I see that green beans are on your ok group...But they should be on the Never list. Beans and any legumes are bad...I am certainly no expert...but I have about 27 chelonia and have learned some things from them. I believe they are all opportunistic feeders and if, for instance, a Sulcata came across a glazed donut in the wild, they would eat it. Does that mean I should feed donuts everyday? Nope, but if I need something to add a little variety to a torts diet I might add the donut.
I was sitting in the sun one day watching a group of Gopherus agassizii I had at the time (a few months old probably 50 grams) when all the sudden one jumped up in the air and took off like a shot...he ran over to the block wall and pulled a bluebelly off the wall. The bluebelly was probably 4 inches and the tortoise 3 inches. It was quite a battle but in the end the bluebelly was eaten all up. In the wild they eat so much more then we allow in captivity...I feed my tortoises everything I can. Don't bother yelling at me, I have already been yelled at by the best, I don't care, I raise healthy tortoises that are well socialized, look good and will eat anything...makes it very easy to take to the Vet and makes it easy to feed and give meds...


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 18, 2009)

I do not think avocado should ever be fed. We had some very sad stories here of torts getting sick off it. Very high in fat.


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## Madkins007 (Jul 25, 2009)

maggie3fan said:


> I see that green beans are on your ok group...But they should be on the Never list. Beans and any legumes are bad...I am certainly no expert...but I have about 27 chelonia and have learned some things from them. I believe they are all opportunistic feeders and if, for instance, a Sulcata came across a glazed donut in the wild, they would eat it. Does that mean I should feed donuts everyday? Nope, but if I need something to add a little variety to a torts diet I might add the donut.
> I was sitting in the sun one day watching a group of Gopherus agassizii I had at the time (a few months old probably 50 grams) when all the sudden one jumped up in the air and took off like a shot...he ran over to the block wall and pulled a bluebelly off the wall. The bluebelly was probably 4 inches and the tortoise 3 inches. It was quite a battle but in the end the bluebelly was eaten all up. In the wild they eat so much more then we allow in captivity...I feed my tortoises everything I can. Don't bother yelling at me, I have already been yelled at by the best, I don't care, I raise healthy tortoises that are well socialized, look good and will eat anything...makes it very easy to take to the Vet and makes it easy to feed and give meds...



Heck, *I* am not going to yell at you over an opportunistic fruit- it is well documented that most tortoises will eat some fruit- mostly berries- in the wild, and even eat a decent amount of opportunisitic protein.

Which brings me to legumes. There are two main arguments I have heard against legumes: not a naturally eaten food, and too high in protein.

As for a natural food, while I cannot speak about grassland species, some of the documented foods for wild Red-foots are legumes, which in most scientific reports are included as 'fruits'.

As for the protein, I know there is a lot of debate about protein and grassland species, and I don't know enough to weigh in on that- but Red-foots eat a pretty high amount of plant and animal protein in the wild.

Legumes do not offer enough nutrients to justify them being a favored food, but they do offer some amino acids, etc. that are useful. I also do not treat all legumes equally. Clover is a legume and I use it freely. I do not use garbanzo, peanuts, or soy.

The 'good/OK/bad' list for a Red-foot is going to be different than it will be for a Desert Tortoise or Russian. I don't always make it clear that my list of foods is for Red-foots and I apologize for that.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jul 30, 2009)

I just got some tamarinds... Gonna see how they go over


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## stells (Aug 2, 2009)

I feel the need to post on this... 

I had a small tortoise (approx 3 inches) form a stone last year... first symtoms of this were shown as RNS (stress related)... at the time i put the stress down to other things... until one day i found her straining... i picked her up and to my horror saw she was trying to pass a massive stone... tears were shed... phone calls were made (Danny)... and i had to help her pass the stone... i think Danny has picture... today she is alive and thriving once again... but its been a long slog to get her where she is now

Anyway to cut a long story shot... i have been known to ramble...

The tortoise was bathed daily... and has access to water 24/7... also the weed mix was fed wet... and temps were all ok'ed by two knowledgable keepers (Danny and Ed)...

The only thing it came down to was diet... so i watched the tortoise... and fed her the mix i fed regularly which consisted of a fast variety of weeds... Dandelion... Sowthistle... Mallow... Chickweed the list goes on...

The tortoise was picking out the food with a moderate-high amount of oxalic acid...

So from my experience the stone was not formed because of dehydration... but more because of the foods i was feeding which have now been reserched further than i ever intended i would...



Madkins007 said:


> egyptiandan said:
> 
> 
> > The thing is with plants that have an oxalic acid content is that the oxalic acid binds with calcium. This makes calcium oxalate which contributes to stone production. So as well as making the calcium unavailable, it can cause your tortoise to form stones when fed. So you really do have to watch out how much plant material you feed that has an oxalic acid content. I wouldn't feed anything with a medium to high content more than once a week, if that much.
> ...


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## tortoisenerd (Aug 3, 2009)

Agreed! My tort seems even more sensitive to oxalic acid than some, so I feed less of it, which unfortunately means more lettuces and less weeds for him. He also had a stone, and at a very young age (about 6 months).


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## Crazy1 (Aug 3, 2009)

Madkins, I have never fed a seed as listed on my no list to my torts and I know that some seeds are toxic to not only torts but to humans as well. I have read that some torts have ingested apple seed and become ill, though I can not find the writings at this time. I know of a DT that eats peaches that has fallen off the tree for years and is fine. But seeds like apple seeds are much softer and are easily broken open by a sharp beak. I personally would not chance it. And unlike yours my torts are a small species so toxins are well, more toxic in smaller quantities. 

Kelly, I am with you, I have done more research on the foods I feed more than I ever intended I would. As you all know I recently lost a young Greek from a stone. I had increased all my Greeks intake of dandelions as they had gone crazy in my yard. Dandelion is a good food right? Yeah, fed in moderate amounts. All the torts were doing fine. I was soaking them and giving them a varied diet. But giving and her eating a varied diet is two different things. She was eating and eating dandelions, and little bits of other things. I think that some animals, torts or humans can be more sucseptible to toxins, minerals etc. And I know dehydration can play a part in the breakdown of any system. torts, or humans, but I also know that if eaten enough of, even humans can suffer from the effects of oxalic crystals and stones. Even well hydrated people. 
I do not give my hatchlings and young Greeks Kale, spinach Broccoli, cabbage, Chives, collard greens, beet greens or parsley and dandelions are now an occasional green, along with Red Leaf Lettuce and romain to name a few.

Yvonne now for legumes.
Legumes come in many different forms green beans, clover, alfalfa, peas, beans, lentils, lupins, mesquite, carob and peanuts to name a few.

Legumes are an excellent source of protein, iron and fiber. They are low-fat and low in cholesterol. 
Thus they can be a healthy substitute for meat. 
_A Hundred grams of cooked legumes can supply two-thirds of an active humanÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s daily protein needs._
So would I feed legumes to my torts? Yes but in small amounts and occasionally. Small torts - Small amounts. Anyone who has ever fed clover to a tort has fed legumes. Like any food that is not a direct out and out poison it often depends on the size of the tort and the predisposition of the tort. 

Here again we look at variety not only what you are feeding them but what they are actually eating. If I am feeding more than one tort in a pen I either separate them or watch them eat. No more picking out only one thing while the others eat the rest. Tortoises have been around a long time and it is only recently that we have really began to look at what they eat, how they eat it and how much of it they eat. WeÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve got a long way to go Baby.


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