# Calcium and Phosphorus ratio of foods (as well as protein & fiber info))



## MrFrost (Apr 2, 2014)

First of all, for the new people here, for captive tortoises the ideal *calciumhosphorus* ratio of the foods they eat is *2:1*. The foods containing these should be the main thing that you should be feeding the tortoise, while the maximum safe ratio (mainly for the wild and the tortoises kept outdoors) is *4:1*.

Credit to IguanaDen website, they have compiled a list of the quantities and the ratios found in a lot of vegetables and fruits that could be used to feed the tortoise:

*Vegetable Calciumhosphorus Ratios*
http://www.iguanaden.org/diet/calphosveg.htm

*Fruit Calciumhosphorus Ratios*
http://www.iguanaden.org/diet/calphosfruit.htm

An important thing to pay attention to is to not give importance to the position they are found on a chart, that is specifically used for iguanas, while for us fellow tortoise owners need to pay attention to vegetables and fruits with the *ratio situated between 2:1 and 4:1 max*. This is, however, general feeding advice for all tortoises, what needs to be also consulted, depending on what kind of tortoise you got is this: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/webdiet.htm

*Fiber*
Although most foods contain reasonable amounts of fiber, having a high fiber diet for any tortoise is good because of the fact that it facilitates digestion, which is never a bad thing. High fiber diets also prevent the common occurrence of constipation.

Special for tortoises, fruits recommended with high fiber are: *Dried figs, raisins, raspberries, bananas, strawberries pears and apples.* Oranges are good too but you must really measure how much you're giving to the tortoise, because oranges contain a lot of citric acid which causes a lot of digestive issues with the tortoise. Just feeding modest amounts of banana the tortoise should 99% of the time would do the trick because you'd want the tortoise to get fiber but you wouldn't want at the same time to get a lot of sugar in the system or facilitate diarrhea, intestinal parasites nor colic.

*Protein*
A bit of protein is good for tortoises, but going overboard with how much protein they ingest will also cause a lot of problems with the tortoise ranging from pyramiding to liver disease and renal failure. Protein intake should be kept as low as possible and only coming from foods that respect the ratio talked about above.

For any more specialised info for the exact species of tortoise that you have, consult this website for further info on the diet: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/webdiet.htm


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## Tom (Apr 2, 2014)

Everything you have posted above as facts, is actually opinion and some of it is highly debatable with lots of evidence to the contrary. It is also going to vary by species.

In two books on Hermanni and a essay style scientific paper on russians, they reported that wild torts of at least these two species often eat foods with calcium to phosphorous ratios of 12:1 or higher.

Protein intake is also highly debatable, and again, will depend on species. It has been reported that wild sulcata will eat carrion with gusto every opportunity they get, and captive observations support this. What about RFs, YFs or manouria?

I won't even get into your fruit recommendations... Suffice to say, I don't agree.

I understand the intent of your post, and I think in general following your advice won't hurt a tortoise, but some of your assertions are often repeated info, but not necessarily proven or correct.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 2, 2014)

*ratio of foods (as well as protein & fiber info))*

Andy Highfield (The Tortoise Trust) is a pretty well-known tortoise person, however, he's been awfully busy lately, and hasn't updated the articles on his site for quite a while. The article you linked was written in 2002. We have learned quite a bit since then that tells us different and our new education has been proved by members here through actual experience and followed through pictures here on the Forum.


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## DeanS (Apr 2, 2014)

Of course, I look at these links and laugh! BUT...I cringe for the novice who latches onto it as fact...


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## Tom (Apr 2, 2014)

I vaguely remember Andy mentioning calcium to phosphorous ratios of 32:1 in his wild greek studies in that recent pyramiding discussion. Does anyone else remember that or have a link to that thread? There were 18 or more pages on that one, so I really don't feel like spending an hour looking for that one reference. I remember it was VERY high.


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## jaizei (Apr 2, 2014)

Testudoresearch said:


> Diet. Critical. The diet should be designed to maximize _healthy _bone generation. This diet probably looks OK to most keepers... but it is not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-83263-post-787195.html#pid787195




Testudoresearch said:


> coastal said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, you can calcify the insides. Keep the powders minimal and very light depending on diet you may not need any at all. If this is calcium OD
> ...



http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-84287-post-787463.html#pid787463





Testudoresearch said:


> Team Gomberg said:
> 
> 
> > > If so, what can I do to prevent it from progressing?
> ...





http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-84819-post-791734.html#pid791734


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## Tom (Apr 2, 2014)

Thank you J. You are the master of finding this sort of thing.

So as high as 14:1. Thank you for the correction.


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## Stoneman (Apr 18, 2018)

Tom said:


> Everything you have posted above as facts, is actually opinion and some of it is highly debatable with lots of evidence to the contrary. It is also going to vary by species.
> 
> In two books on Hermanni and a essay style scientific paper on russians, they reported that wild torts of at least these two species often eat foods with calcium to phosphorous ratios of 12:1 or higher.
> 
> ...


What would you recommend for protein intake for Indian star tortoises? I have thought about adding a little soy or pea protein periodically to supplement protein. I have read alfalfa is good and has a lot of protein. Are there specific amino acids that are good, and others problematic?


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## Tom (Apr 18, 2018)

VividTortoises said:


> What would you recommend for protein intake for Indian star tortoises? I have thought about adding a little soy or pea protein periodically to supplement protein. I have read alfalfa is good and has a lot of protein. Are there specific amino acids that are good, and others problematic?


Again, very little study has been done on this, so I can share only my opinion and experience on the matter. My opinion is influenced by my own experience and the experience of other tortoise keepers I've come into contact with.

For a long time, protein was a bit of a "boogeyman" for tortoise keepers and was thought to be the cause of pyramiding and a killer of tortoises. Turns out it has little to do with pyramiding and that dehydration is actually the real killer of tortoises, regardless of protein. The top breeder (Top as in most babies produced…) of sulcatas in this country feeds mostly bales of alfalfa. Not saying that is the way to go, but he's done this for years and his tortoises are alive and well and making lots of babies. In a conversation with Richard Fife, he told me that many captive tortoises have a protein deficient diet because people have been told for so long that any and all protein for tortoises is bad bad bad. Yet, in reality, this hasn't been the case. For my own herd, I grow alfalfa, several types of clover, and a few other legumes to feed to all of my tortoises. These items make up a relatively small percentage of their diet, but they all get some protein from them. I also feed Mazuri once or twice a week, and it contains a good amount of protein for my growing babies and egg producing females.

What do I recommend? I recommend balance. I recommend a wide variety of foods, with some of them being higher in protein. I recommend we avoid grocery store lettuce in favor of the right weeds, leaves, flowers and succulents. I also strongly recommend good hydration for every tortoise of every species.


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