# Moral/Ethical Business Dilemma



## Tom (Jan 31, 2019)

I've learned over the years that I sometimes see things differently than "the majority". This being the case, I thought I'd ask for a consensus from the group.

I've sold many tortoise babies over the years and everything has gone very well with no problems. Well the inevitable has happened. A baby has died. I think most of the people reading know the care that goes into my babies, but try to look at this from an unbiased point of view.

Babies were hatched 6-9 months prior. 50 in total. All are now 80-100+ grams and thriving. I've got 14 left and the others have been sold and shipped all over the country into a variety of environments and enclosure types. As far as I know, all are doing well and there have been no problems.

The baby in question was shipped on January 3rd. I shipped it with a heat pack and a thermometer that records highs and lows. Temp in the insulated shipping box was between 84 and 64. No delays or problems with shipping. Customer said appetite was a little low on the day of arrival, but then it was fine after that. Customer reports daily soaks, and that temps are good in the enclosure. On June 8th, customer inquired about the tortoises birthdate, so they could celebrate annually, and all seemed good.

I inquired by text on how the baby was doing on Jan 19th and the answer was: "Looks good. It eats and poop well and is also active" No further contact until this morning.

At 8:11am this morning I get a text saying that the baby has died. Customer reports the temperatures and equipment used and I see no obvious problem. Soaking water was a little too hot (30-40C), but shouldn't be fatal. All else seems fine.

Customer is requesting a half refund. Customer thinks: "...our responsibility is half half."

No warranty was discussed at any time. Customer never asked about a guarantee and I never offered one. I don't sell anything but perfect healthy babies. I'm just a small private hobby breeder and as such, all of my babies get tremendous individual care and attention. I handle, inspect and care for them all daily. If ever there was a problem, I'd know every detail.

What say you all? Should I refund half the money? All of it? None of it? Please feel free to be blunt and honest with me.


----------



## TammyJ (Jan 31, 2019)

It does not seem to me at all that this was your fault. You did everything right and after that, something went wrong.
As for the refund, what I would do is go ahead and refund half the money but with a clear conscience and a note to that effect, that this was unexpected and very very rare to have happened and you take no blame whatsoever, you are sending the half refund as a gesture of goodwill. You are in no way responsible but you are sympathetic.


----------



## Blackdog1714 (Jan 31, 2019)

I feel the owner should provide photos of the setup to show they followed your instructions. If they did than half a refund would be fair. As a new owner I did my enclosure adjustments and dialing in well prior to getting my baby from Carol S. I followed the care sheet almost to the letter and have seen my baby thrive. Sadly I see too many folks even on here that want an interactive tortoise(think puppy) and over stress them in the process


----------



## DanB (Jan 31, 2019)

If no guarantee was given at time of purchase then you are under no obligation to refund any money. If you do so you will be setting a precedent that you will refund without a guarantee. I'm not saying these people are scammers but if I gave any money back Id ask for the tortoise back.


----------



## jsheffield (Jan 31, 2019)

I think you'd be perfectly justified not refunding any of their money, but since it's inside a month, I'd do 50% towards a replacement.

Assuming they can provide a pic of the satisfactory enclosure and the dead tort.

Jmho, ymmv.

Jamie


----------



## DanB (Jan 31, 2019)

jsheffield said:


> I think you'd be perfectly justified not refunding any of their money, but since it's inside a month, I'd do 50% towards a replacement.
> 
> Assuming they can provide a pic of the enclosure and the dead tort.
> 
> ...


 
I like the 50% off on a reorder.


----------



## SPILL (Jan 31, 2019)

Today is four weeks to the day that you sent that tortoise out. Even when there is an expressed guarantee it is rarely that long. I'm a buyer only, and this is just my opinion, but I don't think you are responsible or owe anything. If you do feel morally obligated, and you believe the proper care was being given by the new owner, a partial credit towards a replacement would be more than adequate.


----------



## Toddrickfl1 (Jan 31, 2019)

Tom said:


> I've learned over the years that I sometimes see things differently than "the majority". This being the case, I thought I'd ask for a consensus from the group.
> 
> I've sold many tortoise babies over the years and everything has gone very well with no problems. Well the inevitable has happened. A baby has died. I think most of the people reading know the care that goes into my babies, but try to look at this from an unbiased point of view.
> 
> ...


I think if the baby has been with the customer over 3 weeks now and the customer reported that the baby was eating and pooping it's definitely not your fault, or any thing you did to cause it. That being said if you've been selling them years and this is the first occurrence of this if it were me I would refund half the money or offer a second tortoise at half the cost and just take the loss. Maybe in the future give a disclaimer upfront like 2 week guarantee maybe. Use this as a learning experience should something like this ever happen again. I would definitely ask for pictures of enclosure and tortoise first though to make sure customer didn't cause it. Just my two cents, that's all I got right now payday isn't for another week


----------



## Tim Carlisle (Jan 31, 2019)

I agree with the others here. From a legal and moral standpoint, you should not be held responsible. From a strictly business standpoint, you could certainly offer a discount on another tortoise or product just to keep in good faith with the customer. This might ensure repeat business as well as prevent any negative comments posted about you on the web. If such negative comments appear after the fact, then you can say that you honestly tried to appease the customer.


----------



## Redfool (Jan 31, 2019)

A “one time” 50% off another tort, if you want to risk another tort, not including shipping would be fair. Stress that your torts are not “money back guaranteed”, that this discount is just out of courtesy. Keeping a list of referrals should show an impeccable record. You are an extremely experienced hobbyist not a business. Once it’s shipped it’s out of your control. Let them know you only offer quality torts and the rarity of the situation. Good luck and thanks for showing a good conscience.


----------



## Turtulas-Len (Jan 31, 2019)

I may be the only one that thinks this way, I would send them a replacement tortoise and let them pay for the cost of shipping. The cause of death will never be known so that should not be a factor in how you handle this. You shouldn't accept any responsibility for what happened because that will never be known. Financially your loss will be minimal and when you do a good deed your rewards are usually greater than the expense you put out. I am speaking as a hobbyist not as a business owner. I've been buying, selling, trading,receiving free, and giving away reptiles for over 50 years and seen many unexplained deaths and different people handle the situation in different ways. Good Luck with your decision, what ever it is it wont be wrong.


----------



## Maro2Bear (Jan 31, 2019)

I think i agree with things stated by @Toddrickfl1 above, basically - refund half the money or offer a second tortoise at half the cost and just take the loss. Maybe in the future give a disclaimer upfront like 2 or 3 weeks.

You guaranteed and provided a well-started healthy tortoise. Once the new owner took possession you no longer can trust and verify the conditions. 
Good luck.


----------



## motero (Jan 31, 2019)

How willing are they to prove their husbandry? I have run into similar situation. But it was a year later, friend of a friend. Sulcata died, they wanted to buy another one at a discount. They were completely unwilling to discuss the tortoises care with me, said over and over that they had read everything about them on the Internet. But would not tell me about their setup or routine. Just claimed they did everything right. I had to tell them they should get another one from someone else. Left it at that. Best of luck. Lots of good ideas from those who have already posted.


----------



## Team Gomberg (Jan 31, 2019)

Turtulas-Len said:


> I would send them a replacement tortoise and let them pay for the cost of shipping.
> 
> The cause of death will never be known so that should not be a factor in how you handle this. You shouldn't accept any responsibility for what happened because that will never be known.
> 
> ...



You said exactly what I was going to say..


----------



## TammyJ (Jan 31, 2019)

How could their sending pictures prove anything anyway? Anyone can set up a beautiful habitat/enclosure, take pictures and send, and say that's it. Take pics of any sleeping tortoise and say it's dead. You don't know, but we know people are capable of this type of deceit, unfortunately.
I still say, do the "good will" and "nice" thing and pay back half the cost with a letter disclaiming any responsibility.


----------



## Markw84 (Jan 31, 2019)

I don't ever recall seeing any live animal guarantees over 7 days. 4 weeks is extreme, especially since there was contact at 3 weeks and everything was reported fine. I would be tempted out of goodwill to simply refund or replace. However, the problem is setting a precedent that later could become an issue. More importantly, there was an admitted issue that I believe gives a very good probable cause:

I do not agree that a 40° soaking temperature can be assumed as not lethal. Many reports I recall show a critical thermal max of 40°-41° for many tortoise species. Especially a young tortoise under 100g soaking in 40° water would reach a core body temp of that 40° in a few minutes. If they're saying up to 40° could it have been 41°? At that temperature every degree would make a huge difference. I would freak out if I found I had put a tortoise in 40° water. With a quick death and everything reported fine a week ago, this seems a very likely cause.

Regardless, there is so much that can be done wrong with a young tortoise, all I feel we can do is guarantee a healthy animal upon arrival. I would even consider refund or replacement if they reported something wrong wiithin perhaps 2 weeks out of goodwill.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 31, 2019)

@ALDABRAMAN created a thread on this topic, much to see on it. Some offer a 1 year warranty.

To answer your question @Tom , I'd offer a break on price if they buy from you again, confined to some time period (i.e. within the next month, year etc.) and offer nothing else. There are a bazillion factors that could have played a role in the death, none that trace back to anything more than an accidental consumption of a lightening bug, a flower with pesticide, a drop by someone (not the owner) etc. that happened a few days ago.

But there are no doubt more details in the situation that could weigh in on what you do. But for the narrative as you wrote it, that's what I would do.


----------



## ALDABRAMAN (Jan 31, 2019)

Tom said:


> I've learned over the years that I sometimes see things differently than "the majority". This being the case, I thought I'd ask for a consensus from the group.
> 
> I've sold many tortoise babies over the years and everything has gone very well with no problems. Well the inevitable has happened. A baby has died. I think most of the people reading know the care that goes into my babies, but try to look at this from an unbiased point of view.
> 
> ...



~ No, once the hatchlings leaves your custody, care and control in optimal health there is no further obligation on your part to refund anything. Fortunately, we have not had this ever happen, however it is always a concern. One thing i stress prior to delivery is that once the hatchlings leaves our program, we are not responsible for further health, growth or development. I always make sure the customer has my direct phone number for direct unconditional support.


----------



## ALDABRAMAN (Jan 31, 2019)

Will said:


> There are a bazillion factors that could have played a role in the death, none that trace back to anything more than an accidental consumption of a lightening bug, a flower with pesticide, a drop by someone (not the owner) etc. that happened a few days ago.



~ Yes, so many possibilities........


----------



## wellington (Jan 31, 2019)

Sorry it happened Tom. I think you should consider your reputation maybe more then anything. A million good tortoise sales won't drown out the one bad one if these people want too sing. You probably should demand the body back unless you know these people can be trusted. Then refund the half along with the understand you are doing this out of kindness not obligation or wrong doing.


----------



## KarenSoCal (Jan 31, 2019)

I'm so sorry, Tom. I know this is very unsettling for you.

Do you have a "gut" feeling about this customer? Do you feel that they were negligent in any way? Or that they are trying to scam you?

As others have said, you will never know, for certain, the cause of the baby's death. But assuming they are reputable, responsible people, they are hurting at the loss of their pet. The likelihood is that they did love him and nurture him to the best of their ability.

Without admitting any fault, I think you could use this sympathetic approach to refund half the price, or offer another tort at half off.

As said by another, your financial loss is not the issue. But the goodwill gained by "I am so very sorry this happened to you" is priceless. Everyone loves a vendor who genuinely empathizes with his customer, especially when it involves a living being. I truly believe you will feel better about the entire episode when you look back on it.


----------



## Dizisdalife (Jan 31, 2019)

@Tom, I agree with Len's advice. Offer them a replacement tortoise or send them money. I think you will feel good about it later.


----------



## leotortoise1 (Jan 31, 2019)

I'm a tortoise newbie but I'm in the customer service business, understand client patterns, and the importance of a peaceful night of sleep. You reached out to check on the baby, more than ten days passed with no contact, and there was no indication or assistance requested if the baby was going downhill (Again, I'm no expert and I don't know how fast or out of the blue something like that could happen but it wasn't a tiny baby it was at least 6 months and they know they can call on you for help if needed). In my experience, I'm not sure sending them another tort would lead to the peaceful sleep because they're asking for money and not a replacement which most people would do immediately because they know your stellar reputation.

My recommendation would be to respond in your own words something like the following:

Dear ____, 
I was shocked and very sad to read your text and I am truly sorry for your loss. In _____ years and over ______ numbers of babies, I pride myself in never losing a baby. I put great time and care into hand-raising my babies to ensure all my torts are over 6 months, at least 100grams, healthy and thriving so I can be confident that I am shipping only the healthiest baby to its' new family. I also go to great lengths to not only education my new families, but I also spend hours online each day teaching others proper care and husbandry to avoid loss or harm. I have never had the need for a health guarantee and I am confident that the animal you received was in excellent health, but I do this for the love and share in you and your family's pain. I will refund half the purchase price of your tort if you feel it is necessary. I am truly sorry for your loss, 

ps - then, if you have another youngster available instead of sending it to them, I'll happily pay for their half refund and the new baby and shipping for us in full - lol - just kidding (well, not really I'd happily do that). 

I'm really sorry you're going through this. Everyone knows you'd only raise and send the best babies available. Yes nature can be tricky and the animals can't communicate with us, but as a family owner who wanted to celebrate a birthday - it seems there would've been a phone call or at least some sort of insight into how to prevent it if there's something to keep it for happening to others. Sounds like they're just asking for some money back and unfortunately, sometimes that's the easiest way to close a chapter and move forward. Good luck and don't let it get you down - you do amazing things for so many.


----------



## wccmog10 (Feb 1, 2019)

If it were me, I would not refund any money. I would maybe offer half price on another animal, but I understand having reservations about doing that since there is a good chance that they mistakingly killed the last one.

Offering half the money back, or half price on another animal sound the same on the surface, but in one situation Tom is paying out money, in the other he is still adding money to his bank account. So they are different in my opinion. 

In no way do I think Tom is responsible for doing anything. But I also understand the customer is upset after spending their hard earned money on a tortoise only to have it die, unfortunately people always want mistakes to be other people’s fault instead of their own. I feel like Toms track record speaks for itself, and that he doesnt need to worry about “bad press” from this one event.


----------



## ascott (Feb 3, 2019)

Tom said:


> I've learned over the years that I sometimes see things differently than "the majority". This being the case, I thought I'd ask for a consensus from the group.
> 
> I've sold many tortoise babies over the years and everything has gone very well with no problems. Well the inevitable has happened. A baby has died. I think most of the people reading know the care that goes into my babies, but try to look at this from an unbiased point of view.
> 
> ...



Nope. Tom, I would not.


----------



## KarenSoCal (Feb 3, 2019)

ascott said:


> Nope. Tom, I would not.



You would not:
A. Look at it with an unbiased view? Or
B. Refund any money?


----------



## ascott (Feb 3, 2019)

KarenSoCal said:


> You would not:
> A. Look at it with an unbiased view? Or
> B. Refund any money?



I would absolutely look at with a biased view.....
and no, I would not refund any money.


----------



## KarenSoCal (Feb 3, 2019)

ascott said:


> I would absolutely look at with a biased view.....
> and no, I would not refund any money.


Will you still be my friend if we disagree? [emoji120][emoji178]


----------



## Turtulas-Len (Feb 3, 2019)

I never suggested a refund.


----------



## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Feb 3, 2019)

Tom 
I will say this all wrong . And I hope this will not hurt our friendship . But I’ve been here along time and I’ve seen posts on here from people feel they bought the best cause they bought from @ Tom ! I think what ever you decide you will consider your repation first and foremost. And the torts death isn’t your fault.But one sale isn’t worth the respect of a lot of new comers ! Good luck with your sleep . And don’t forget it’s not your fault !![emoji217]


----------



## Pastel Tortie (Feb 3, 2019)

@Tom - We know it isn't your fault. You know it isn't your fault. You aren't obligated to do anything. That being said, you probably will feel better if you do SOMETHING, whether it's a partial refund on the tortoise or a discount on another one (along with a gentle reminder to please do you a favor and make sure the soaking water stays within given temperatures, just in case that had anything to do with it before). 

Yes, it sort of sets a precedent, but realistically... How often is this type of thing likely to happen? Now that it's happened ONCE, its even LESS likely to happen again. (We know you Tom, and we know your care, attention and precautions will only become further honed after this.) You have a right to handle these things on a case by case basis. If there is a policy you feel comfortable implementing, go ahead, but if you are not comfortable with it, I do not feel it is necessary (in YOUR case). I would say the same to @ALDABRAMAN. 

If this were a pattern, some indicator of a possible genetic defect, then some disclaimers and policy making would be in order. But this isn't a pattern, and there is no reason to think it will become one. 

The veterinarians that see my animals send condolence cards when one of their patients passes on. It's a good reminder and acknowledgement that yes, it matters. You're the breeder, not the veterinarian, but I think at the end of the day, the family mourning the loss of their tortoise need to know that yes, it matters. I think that as long as you keep that in mind and successfully convey (repeatedly if necessary) that yes, it matters, you will be at peace with it.


----------



## wellington (Feb 3, 2019)

Whatever you decide Tom, I will always have your back if needed and I'm sure there are lots of others on here that will too.


----------



## Tom (Feb 3, 2019)

Thanks to all for the thoughtful replies and supportive comments.

The customer took it out of my hands and took it to arbitration with the payment company. I asked for some time to consider everything, and my plan was to offer half the money back, as many of you suggested, but the customer took that decision out of my hands. I did offer a replacement at half price, if we could figure out what went wrong with the first one. My customer told me that he didn't trust that I'd send him a healthy animal or that I'd ship it correctly and declined my offer. He also went from asking for half of the money back, to asking for all of it back. He said that if we couldn't reach an agreement, he thought it would be better to let a third party decide.

The payment company found in my favor. I'd have been pretty pissed if they hadn't, but I really can't say that I'm happy that they did. What I wish is that something could have been said or done to save this baby. I wish I had another happy customer with another healthy tortoise. I don't think this was an attempted scam, although I guess it could have been.

The whole thing doesn't sit well with me. This is not what I want to deal with in my hobby. This is not a business for me. This doesn't pay my bills. I do it because I love it, and I want to share that joy with others. This customer is not experiencing joy, and I'm not happy about it.

I'm just going to try and put it behind me and move on to better days. If my customer ever reads this, I am wishing good things for you and your family, and I'm sorry that your baby didn't make it.


----------



## wellington (Feb 3, 2019)

Tom said:


> Thanks to all for the thoughtful replies.
> 
> The customer took it out of my hands and took it to arbitration with the payment company. I asked for some time to consider everything, and my plan was to offer half the money back, as many of you suggested, but the customer took that decision out of my hands. I did offer a replacement at half price, if we could figure out what went wrong with the first one. My customer told me that he didn't trust that I'd send him a healthy animal or that I'd ship it correctly and declined my offer. He also went from asking for half of the money back, to asking for all of it back. He said that if we couldn't reach an agreement, he thought it would be better to let a third party decide.
> 
> ...


Tom, I/we know how much you care. This is not on you at all. You know this and so do we.
It's kinda dirty that they didn't work with you with however you wanted to work it out. That's kinda dirty on their part. Maybe a sign they weren't the best tortoise owner after all. If they are a member of this forum they know the kind of person you are. If they become a member, they will learn quickly, they should have stuck with you one way or the other. 
Live arrival is the only guarantees I have seen. I never thought to ask for money back the time I purchased a lizard from a well known reptile seller that died within a month of owning it. It arrived live that's all they promised. 
This is totally on them.


----------



## Redfool (Feb 3, 2019)

@Tom, good to see the arbitrator absolved you of all responsibility. Might be a good thing that a second tort is not placed in the same situation. One’s bad, two’s worse. You attempted to resolve the situation and they took it elsewhere. Sleep well and keep supplying torts with a clear conscience.


----------



## ALDABRAMAN (Feb 3, 2019)

Tom said:


> The customer took it out of my hands and took it to arbitration with the payment company.



~ WOW, This is one of the main reasons we only except wire transfers, cash and checks. It is rare we get checks, however we do and we hold the check for ten days (to ensure it clears and no issues) prior to releasing the tortoises for pick up. On thing with a check, if it does not clear it is a criminal offense, as of yet we have never had on not clear. Usually our sources prefer the other two methods. I have probably lost customers by not excepting pay pal, visa, etc., However it has never been a serious factor for us.


----------



## ascott (Feb 3, 2019)

KarenSoCal said:


> Will you still be my friend if we disagree? [emoji120][emoji178]



Of course....we all have our own minds and with that come our own feelings on the same issue...


----------



## wccmog10 (Feb 4, 2019)

Tom said:


> Thanks to all for the thoughtful replies and supportive comments.
> 
> The customer took it out of my hands and took it to arbitration with the payment company. I asked for some time to consider everything, and my plan was to offer half the money back, as many of you suggested, but the customer took that decision out of my hands. I did offer a replacement at half price, if we could figure out what went wrong with the first one. My customer told me that he didn't trust that I'd send him a healthy animal or that I'd ship it correctly and declined my offer. He also went from asking for half of the money back, to asking for all of it back. He said that if we couldn't reach an agreement, he thought it would be better to let a third party decide.
> 
> ...



Wow, this isn’t really how I expected it to go. But I am glad for both parties that it is decided and the ordeal is over. I hope the buyer and seller can both move on to better days. All of us here know that the seller (@Tom) is one of the best hobbiests/breeders there is, so it hurts to see that the buyer did not think Tom would send a quality animal the second time. I understand that the buyers are hurting emotionally and financially, but those comments, and a refusal to work with Tom on a solution (or give him time to think about the situation) is not very resepectful. It’s to bad that this buyer will not have a chance to learn more about how good of a breeder Tom is, and that his animals are all quality.


----------



## g4mobile (Feb 6, 2019)

I purchased a Burmese Star baby from @Tom last October and it’s doing great. At no point would I have expected anything from Tom past 3-4 days, as my tortoise was eating and pooping fine. These are live animals and anything can happen in another persons care. Offering a discount for a replacement tortoise would be very kind, but not expected in my opinion. I’m sorry to hear one of your babies died and also about the circumstance this customer put you in.


----------



## turtles11756 (Feb 6, 2019)

the star Tom sold and shipped clear across the country could not have been any healthier , if anything ever happens to her it would be 100% my fault. something happened after that tortoise left Tom. bet on it !


----------



## Chuck C (Feb 6, 2019)

I had an entire essay on how I feel about this situation, but I chose to delete it. I don't post much on here, but from the responses I did read, some people should keep their mouths shut.


----------



## DebQue (Feb 6, 2019)

Tom said:


> I've learned over the years that I sometimes see things differently than "the majority". This being the case, I thought I'd ask for a consensus from the group.
> 
> I've sold many tortoise babies over the years and everything has gone very well with no problems. Well the inevitable has happened. A baby has died. I think most of the people reading know the care that goes into my babies, but try to look at this from an unbiased point of view.
> 
> ...




I have only recently discovered this forum, but I have read and re-read MANY of your very knowledgeable articles and it is obvious that other breeders have a great deal of respect for you. No question. I don't have a tortoise yet (waiting patiently for the 2019 hatch) so know absolutely NOTHING. I don't


----------



## Tom (Feb 6, 2019)

Chuck C said:


> I had an entire essay on how I feel about this situation, but I chose to delete it. I don't post much on here, but from the responses I did read, some people should keep their mouths shut.


Chuck I'd like to know how you feel about it. That's why I did the original post. Feel free to share your opinions on the matter. I won't even ask you to sugar coat it. Be as blunt as you want.


----------



## DebQue (Feb 6, 2019)

DebQue said:


> I have only recently discovered this forum, but I have read and re-read MANY of your very knowledgeable articles and it is obvious that other breeders have a great deal of respect for you. No question. I don't have a tortoise yet (waiting patiently for the 2019 hatch) so know absolutely NOTHING. I don't


dang hit post too soon. I am on the fence... I am puzzled by the fact that all was well until it was not, I guess that is possible but seems unlikely. I also get the impression from reading many post that you and the community as a whole are Very Knowledgeable and very 'available' to assist when asked. so basically I am stating the obvious. All that being said, what makes you feel 'right' about this particular request? My gut says a reasonable request as the loss was only about 30 days into the arrival.


----------



## anac1979 (Feb 6, 2019)

Tom said:


> I've learned over the years that I sometimes see things differently than "the majority". This being the case, I thought I'd ask for a consensus from the group.
> 
> I've sold many tortoise babies over the years and everything has gone very well with no problems. Well the inevitable has happened. A baby has died. I think most of the people reading know the care that goes into my babies, but try to look at this from an unbiased point of view.
> 
> ...



No way would I give the person back their money! They had the tortoise for over 2 weeks, then it dies? Definitely not your fault! You have zero idea how these ppl kept their tortoise. Even if they told you what they were doing, it could be total bs. I raise cats & I give a 72 hour guarantee. The purchaser has to take the kitten to the vet before this time or their contract is null & void. I do give a 1 year congenital health guarantee but the purchaser has to get my permission to put the kitten to sleep & a necropsy has to be done at the buyers expense. Only if their vet finds a congenital defect, will I refund a kitten back. I never return money unless the kitten dies in my home before the buyer receives the kitten. If I were you, I'd figure out a contract for your tortoise sales. I didn't want to do one but finally had to because some nut kept contacting me about a cat she didn't even buy from me. It covers my a$$! Also it makes buyers more comfortable of they have a contract. At least that's been my experience. Good luck! There are a ton of nuts out there. I hope it doesn't happen again.


----------



## DebQue (Feb 6, 2019)

Tom said:


> I've learned over the years that I sometimes see things differently than "the majority". This being the case, I thought I'd ask for a consensus from the group.
> 
> I've sold many tortoise babies over the years and everything has gone very well with no problems. Well the inevitable has happened. A baby has died. I think most of the people reading know the care that goes into my babies, but try to look at this from an unbiased point of view.
> 
> ...



Also, I just read other responses and I also thought about the discount on another baby, but then my GUT said that might be a death wish for the baby so I deleted that part of my response.


----------



## Yvonne G (Feb 6, 2019)

I like the idea of a contract. It would be nice if our members would put up ideas (on a new thread) on what to include in a contract, then we can combine or discard them into one contract and share it with all the sellers on here. I'll put up a thread under the 'for sale' section

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/suggested-ideas-to-put-into-a-sellers-contract.173210/


----------



## keithsf (Feb 6, 2019)

I purchased a baby Sri Lankan star from Chris Leone a few years ago. Sadly the poor little thing arrived upside down in the package shipped from NJ to CA and it was listless and in decline from the day I received it. (I understand this is a different fact set). Three weeks later it died.
Although we all know Chris is one of the very top tort people out there, I was initially really unhappy with the situation because for me as the buyer, I was experiencing a 100% mortality rate whereas for him it was a one-in-a-[insert very large denominator] occurrence.
I of course was also in contact with him the whole time and sharing pictures, set up info., etc.
Chris more than made the situation good by sending me a free baby Western Hermanns as a replacement. I actually offered to pay him the difference in price between what the lower priced Sri Lankan cost vs what he sells the Western Hermanns for and he refused! [This in no way obligates him to do this for anyone else of course!  ]
Through the process he gained my complete respect and I have nothing but positive views of the whole experience, and would never hesitate to recommend or deal with him again,.
Unfortunately many baby torts do die in the first year for myriad reasons, especially in the wild of course.
For those on the forum who have been surrounded by lots and lots of tortoises over many years, it's hard to remember what it was like for someone purchasing their first and possibly only one.
So although I agree that the arbitrators made the correct legal call with regard to denying the customer's demand for a refund, sometimes real goodwill is created when you don't just handle everything by the contractual book. Tom I understand the customer took this option out of your hands in this case. Just food for thought for the future.


----------



## Elisa (Feb 6, 2019)

I know this is all resolved now but since no one gave a differing opinion, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute. Is it possible the temps during shipping played a role? I've read numerous times on here that babies should always be at at least 80 degrees. 64 seems pretty low in comparison.

Also don't pet stores offer 30 day guarantee on their animals if you bring it to them/vet for problems? (Not that I ever would buy from there. Just offering an example)

Please don't take offense by any of this. I know Tom is a great breeder and I'm very new to the tort world so I could definitely have it all wrong.


----------



## Heckhaven (Feb 6, 2019)

Tom said:


> I've learned over the years that I sometimes see things differently than "the majority". This being the case, I thought I'd ask for a consensus from the group.
> 
> I've sold many tortoise babies over the years and everything has gone very well with no problems. Well the inevitable has happened. A baby has died. I think most of the people reading know the care that goes into my babies, but try to look at this from an unbiased point of view.
> 
> ...


Tom - Since no warranty/Guarantee was mentioned I don't think you are under any obligation to refund them. BUT - I would be very upset if I bought something (did everything right) and within two weeks it died. Would you send, if you have one, another Tort to them? Have them send their Tort back to you for examination/necropsy to see if you can find a defect? Since you do sell them and I'm sure you do sell Quality, you do not want a Bad Reference showing up somewhere.


----------



## TammyJ (Feb 6, 2019)

It's an unfortunate fact that mean, inconsiderate, dishonest people exist and that they like to keep tortoises. When people like this buy from a breeder, anything can be expected to happen, but it will never, ever be their fault, even if it is. I am very sorry Tom. You are the best! One bad apple does NOT spoil the whole bunch, and you have a huge bunch of happy customers to prove it.


----------



## Markw84 (Feb 6, 2019)

The issue I have is we have a tendency to look at things through our own set of values, and not take into consideration who we are dealing with and their values.

How many of the people who responded here - saying it would be good to refund - would have ever asked for any refund themselves in the same circumstances? How many of you would have then gone to your payment company and filed for a full refund without notifying the seller you were considering that option?

Recieved the tortoise and all was well
5 days later reached out for hatch date so you could celebrate birthdays. Report all is well.
16 days out seller reaches out to you to check on things. You report everything great. Eating and acting great.
4 weeks out you contact seller say tortoise suddenly dies. You want refund of at least 1/2 money. Seller says needs to think of options and will get back.
What must have been the same day, you then file a claim with your payment company for a full refund, not waiting for a reply from seller.
Seller contacts you and you state payment company did not decide in your favor. That you went ahead and filed because you did not trust the seller and you didn't trust they would send healthy animals.

How many of you would have acted that way? I don't believe anyone of us would.

We tend to have a feeling of how to respond based upon how we act and how we would have treated the situation. BUT... we don't think and act like this person.


----------



## Fluffy (Feb 6, 2019)

Tom I wanted to reply to this and I say this with all due respect. I own two successful small businesses and a couple things you said stand out to me. You refer to this as a "Hobby" and you don't do it to for the money. If we take out of the equation the fact that the product in this instance is a living animal and only look at it from the "Business Dilemma" as you say, it changes a lot for me. The customer is always right! Several times a year I find myself dealing with a customer who is wrong but I always do everything I can to make them happy and especially if it is something I can solve financially. I would rather lose money and know my reputation is still great. You said you don't do it for the money so I would of sent a new tortoise to them and let them know I was doing it to make them happy but was under no obligation to do so and would not be doing it again in the future. You had said everything they had set up for the tortoise and their husbandry seemed ok to you and that's where the live animal comes into play. If I thought they killed it because of their negligence that changes things but you seemed to believe they were doing things correct. If that's true then this is strictly a financial decision. What is your reputation and your wanting happy customers worth to you?


----------



## KarenSoCal (Feb 6, 2019)

I advocated for a 50% refund or 50% off a new baby. That was BEFORE we knew about the arbitration.

This is what I think happened. The customer started out just fine. He cared enough to spend extra money to buy from a reputable breeder, rather than a pet store.

He had the baby and cared properly for it, reporting the truth to the breeder, until....something HORRIBLE happened. A lapse of care, a drop or fall, a dog attack, a child flushed it...any one of a thousand possibilities, but the baby died traumatically.

Instead of admitting this awful thing happened, the customer turned his anger back onto Tom, and to cover his own guilt, tried to blame Tom for the event. Getting his money back was only a way to try to hurt Tom, the object of his rage, since he couldn't own his anger at himself. By this time, the customer was on a rampage, evidenced by his refusal to discuss, ridiculous reason for turning down a new baby, and initiating arbitration.

Back when we only had "my baby died, I want my money back", I think the customer deserved the goodwill approach that many of us suggested, the 50% offers.

After hearing "the rest of the story" (how many of us listened to Paul Harvey?)...I thank God that the arbitors saw the truth. I'm glad that the coward didn't get a cent, and he will have to carry his own anger and guilt.

The tragedy in all of this is that Tom, a knowledgeable, good, and compassionate man, has had to endure this mistreatment. He's been accused and shaken, and he is innocent. Always a sad situation.


----------



## Yvonne G (Feb 6, 2019)

Having spent my whole career at the Phone Company, and having drilled into my head to always be polite, and the customer is always right, I would have hat in hand, apologize and be very sympathetic, and done whatever it took to make that customer happy. If it means sending another baby, so be it. But send it with the understanding that this baby's life is all up to the customer and there will be no further replacements. And for pete's sake, keep all correspondence.


----------



## tortoisenana (Feb 6, 2019)

I'm glad that they found in you favor especially since you (@Tom) are so knowledgeable and take such good care. I personally have raised Chihuahuas for over 35 years and I also have a contract that states a 72 hour guarantee IF they take the puppy to the vet during that time. I have only had one puppy die and I know it got parvo at my kennel because the other puppy in that litter came down with it the next day. I refunded their money. Then I bleached everything and everyone. lol I have not had any more problems. I have two 3 yr old torts and one 2 yr old. Last summer I bought 2 more and they both died; one after a month the other about 2 months. I texted the seller just to let them know but got no response. I never expected any money back but it would have been nice if they had at least texted back with a little sympathy.


----------



## Tom (Feb 6, 2019)

Elisa said:


> I know this is all resolved now but since no one gave a differing opinion, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute. Is it possible the temps during shipping played a role? I've read numerous times on here that babies should always be at at least 80 degrees. 64 seems pretty low in comparison.



This is a fair question and you are not alone. The customer seemed to think this was a factor too. It isn't. Anyone who ships animals all over the country will vouch for this. A few hours of temps in the 60s in a dry insulated box is no problem for any tortoise of any species, and certainly not for a 6-9 month old 80-100 gram baby. If it had dropped into the 30 and stayed that way for a couple of days, it _might_ have been a problem, but remember that this was an overnight shipment and the box was only out of my hands for about 14 hours. The majority of that time was here in warm Southern CA.


----------



## Tom (Feb 6, 2019)

Fluffy said:


> You had said everything they had set up for the tortoise and their husbandry seemed ok to you and that's where the live animal comes into play. If I thought they killed it because of their negligence that changes things but you seemed to believe they were doing things correct.



I get your point here, but the answers on the husbandry were pretty vague, and I have no way of knowing if it was true or not. I have no way of knowing if the baby is really dead or not. If his answers were truthful, then something else went wrong to cause the death. What I do know with 100% certainty is that there was nothing wrong with that baby, and that it was shipped correctly. Something happened on the customer's end, and sending another baby would likely end in the same result.

I would have refunded half the money, just for the sake of sympathy and good will, had he not taken it to arbitration and then changed his demand to a full refund to spite me.


----------



## TylerStewart (Feb 12, 2019)

Fluffy said:


> Tom I wanted to reply to this and I say this with all due respect. I own two successful small businesses and a couple things you said stand out to me. You refer to this as a "Hobby" and you don't do it to for the money. If we take out of the equation the fact that the product in this instance is a living animal and only look at it from the "Business Dilemma" as you say, it changes a lot for me. The customer is always right! Several times a year I find myself dealing with a customer who is wrong but I always do everything I can to make them happy and especially if it is something I can solve financially. I would rather lose money and know my reputation is still great. You said you don't do it for the money so I would of sent a new tortoise to them and let them know I was doing it to make them happy but was under no obligation to do so and would not be doing it again in the future. You had said everything they had set up for the tortoise and their husbandry seemed ok to you and that's where the live animal comes into play. If I thought they killed it because of their negligence that changes things but you seemed to believe they were doing things correct. If that's true then this is strictly a financial decision. What is your reputation and your wanting happy customers worth to you?



The problem with "the customer is always right" is that we are dealing with live animals, and there's a million things that can throw off a new baby. Many many (many) people will not tell you that their dog carried it outside or that they left it in a hot car or that their 2 year old took it in the bath with them, but that stuff does happen, and it happens a lot. More than once we have had people tell us a tortoise we sent them died after whatever amount of time (outside our normal 7 day guarantee). We always ask them for information and try and figure out why, but many times there's no obvious explanation. Many times I'm sure they know why it died, but they won't tell you that in the hopes of getting it replaced. We almost always ask for photos of the setup which about half the time you will never get a response to. More than once we have had photos taken from google sent to us claiming that was their setup (they were familiar photos to me when they sent them, I had seen them before). Someone sent me a photo I posted on facebook 5 years ago saying that was their setup. A few months ago, someone called my wife about this, said they had a "nice little setup." She asked for more information and they were unclear, just that it was set up right per our website. She finally got a photo out of them, and it was literally in a metal pan with no substrate, no light, no hide, placed next to a window with a couple of crumbs of food in there. This was like a month after they got it, they were asking why it wasn't eating (I'll try to attach a photo below, I kept this photo because I knew this would come up again). In their opinion, being next to the window was a light and heat source. People don't want to spend $100 on a tortoise and then be told they need to go spend $150 more to set it up right. They want to take shortcuts, and think they know better how to do it.

We have also caught past customers that we gave the benefit of the doubt to trying to take advantage of that again. I hate not believing the things that people tell us, but you have to be skeptical because more often than not, you can find the hole in their story. If you simply sent a replacement tortoise to everyone that said it had an eye closed one morning 3 months after they got it, you'd be going broke trying to keep up with that. If you know you're not losing animals when you keep them or grow them up yourself, you can be confident that you're not sending out sub-par animals. I think Tom was absolutely in the right here, but I think the guarantee needs to be clarified ahead of time for future transactions. If the customer had been told (or better yet, signed) something saying it was guaranteed for 3 or 7 days (or whatever), their expectation of a partial or full refund after 30 days may have not happened. Many of us selling tortoises don't make their primary living from tortoises. For us, my day job covers my daily bills. My wife does women's hair and eyelash extensions to the tune of a few clients a day, and she keeps that money so I don't have to buy her clothes and shoes LOL. The tortoise money, if we make a profit in a given window of time, allows us some fun money for the kids, and more importantly to me, creates a bunch of tax write-offs. There is a lot of costs in keeping large groups of tortoises, we shouldn't feel bad trying to make money at the end of the day.


----------



## Blackdog1714 (Feb 12, 2019)

TylerStewart said:


> The problem with "the customer is always right" is that we are dealing with live animals, and there's a million things that can throw off a new baby. Many many (many) people will not tell you that their dog carried it outside or that they left it in a hot car or that their 2 year old took it in the bath with them, but that stuff does happen, and it happens a lot. More than once we have had people tell us a tortoise we sent them died after whatever amount of time (outside our normal 7 day guarantee). We always ask them for information and try and figure out why, but many times there's no obvious explanation. Many times I'm sure they know why it died, but they won't tell you that in the hopes of getting it replaced. We almost always ask for photos of the setup which about half the time you will never get a response to. More than once we have had photos taken from google sent to us claiming that was their setup (they were familiar photos to me when they sent them, I had seen them before). Someone sent me a photo I posted on facebook 5 years ago saying that was their setup. A few months ago, someone called my wife about this, said they had a "nice little setup." She asked for more information and they were unclear, just that it was set up right per our website. She finally got a photo out of them, and it was literally in a metal pan with no substrate, no light, no hide, placed next to a window with a couple of crumbs of food in there. This was like a month after they got it, they were asking why it wasn't eating (I'll try to attach a photo below, I kept this photo because I knew this would come up again). In their opinion, being next to the window was a light and heat source. People don't want to spend $100 on a tortoise and then be told they need to go spend $150 more to set it up right. They want to take shortcuts, and think they know better how to do it.
> 
> We have also caught past customers that we gave the benefit of the doubt to trying to take advantage of that again. I hate not believing the things that people tell us, but you have to be skeptical because more often than not, you can find the hole in their story. If you simply sent a replacement tortoise to everyone that said it had an eye closed one morning 3 months after they got it, you'd be going broke trying to keep up with that. If you know you're not losing animals when you keep them or grow them up yourself, you can be confident that you're not sending out sub-par animals. I think Tom was absolutely in the right here, but I think the guarantee needs to be clarified ahead of time for future transactions. If the customer had been told (or better yet, signed) something saying it was guaranteed for 3 or 7 days (or whatever), their expectation of a partial or full refund after 30 days may have not happened. Many of us selling tortoises don't make their primary living from tortoises. For us, my day job covers my daily bills. My wife does women's hair and eyelash extensions to the tune of a few clients a day, and she keeps that money so I don't have to buy her clothes and shoes LOL. The tortoise money, if we make a profit in a given window of time, allows us some fun money for the kids, and more importantly to me, creates a bunch of tax write-offs. There is a lot of costs in keeping large groups of tortoises, we shouldn't feel bad trying to make money at the end of the day.
> 
> View attachment 264796


OMG I don't understand people. I went from Zero to Hero tortie owner because of the knowledge and sharing on TFO!


----------



## Fluffy (Feb 12, 2019)

TylerStewart said:


> The problem with "the customer is always right" is that we are dealing with live animals, and there's a million things that can throw off a new baby. Many many (many) people will not tell you that their dog carried it outside or that they left it in a hot car or that their 2 year old took it in the bath with them, but that stuff does happen, and it happens a lot. More than once we have had people tell us a tortoise we sent them died after whatever amount of time (outside our normal 7 day guarantee). We always ask them for information and try and figure out why, but many times there's no obvious explanation. Many times I'm sure they know why it died, but they won't tell you that in the hopes of getting it replaced. We almost always ask for photos of the setup which about half the time you will never get a response to. More than once we have had photos taken from google sent to us claiming that was their setup (they were familiar photos to me when they sent them, I had seen them before). Someone sent me a photo I posted on facebook 5 years ago saying that was their setup. A few months ago, someone called my wife about this, said they had a "nice little setup." She asked for more information and they were unclear, just that it was set up right per our website. She finally got a photo out of them, and it was literally in a metal pan with no substrate, no light, no hide, placed next to a window with a couple of crumbs of food in there. This was like a month after they got it, they were asking why it wasn't eating (I'll try to attach a photo below, I kept this photo because I knew this would come up again). In their opinion, being next to the window was a light and heat source. People don't want to spend $100 on a tortoise and then be told they need to go spend $150 more to set it up right. They want to take shortcuts, and think they know better how to do it.
> 
> We have also caught past customers that we gave the benefit of the doubt to trying to take advantage of that again. I hate not believing the things that people tell us, but you have to be skeptical because more often than not, you can find the hole in their story. If you simply sent a replacement tortoise to everyone that said it had an eye closed one morning 3 months after they got it, you'd be going broke trying to keep up with that. If you know you're not losing animals when you keep them or grow them up yourself, you can be confident that you're not sending out sub-par animals. I think Tom was absolutely in the right here, but I think the guarantee needs to be clarified ahead of time for future transactions. If the customer had been told (or better yet, signed) something saying it was guaranteed for 3 or 7 days (or whatever), their expectation of a partial or full refund after 30 days may have not happened. Many of us selling tortoises don't make their primary living from tortoises. For us, my day job covers my daily bills. My wife does women's hair and eyelash extensions to the tune of a few clients a day, and she keeps that money so I don't have to buy her clothes and shoes LOL. The tortoise money, if we make a profit in a given window of time, allows us some fun money for the kids, and more importantly to me, creates a bunch of tax write-offs. There is a lot of costs in keeping large groups of tortoises, we shouldn't feel bad trying to make money at the end of the day.
> 
> View attachment 264796


I don't disagree with you at all. I even stated that this is where dealing with a live animal is different. I will say that the biggest difference here is Tom apparently didn't have a 7 day guarantee in place and he says he rarely has these issues. I realize you can't give away your tortoises to everyone who "claims" a problem. You both seem to do this as a hobby and that also changes the way you can treat these issues. The customer is always right is how I will always run my business, it's not a hobby and I can't have a bad reputation and continue feeding my family. I will tell you that a well written and explained contract or warranty is often the best way to insure happy customers and eliminate most of these problems. Again I just want to say I do not disagree with you because I wouldn't want to send a live animal to it's certain death but if there is no reason to think that is the case I prefer to side with great customer service. Tom was in the right but even giving half the money back instead of a new tortoise would probably appease most people. I know this person took that out of his hands but I'm just using this as an example. P.S. I wish my wife had a side job for shoe money, I could probably retire years earlier lol


----------



## Tortoisefanatic88 (Mar 18, 2019)

Tom said:


> Thanks to all for the thoughtful replies and supportive comments.
> 
> The customer took it out of my hands and took it to arbitration with the payment company. I asked for some time to consider everything, and my plan was to offer half the money back, as many of you suggested, but the customer took that decision out of my hands. I did offer a replacement at half price, if we could figure out what went wrong with the first one. *My customer told me that he didn't trust that I'd send him a healthy animal or that I'd ship it correctly and declined my offer. He also went from asking for half of the money back, to asking for all of it back. He said that if we couldn't reach an agreement, he thought it would be better to let a third party decide.*
> 
> ...



The highlighted quote angers me somewhat. Tom you did nothing wrong and even offered a replacement tortoise at half price. For the customer to say any of that I would not offer anything now that the 3rd party has decided in your favor. When I discovered this forum I spent days on here doing reaseach about sulcatas. I knew the person I’d be contacting for a sulcata and all questions I had after just a few days on here......enough said


----------



## Baldy Aeschylus (Mar 19, 2019)

Seems like you've got a "tort" problem.
Been waiting a long time for that pun....
https://legalcareerpath.com/tort-law/


----------



## leotortoise1 (Mar 25, 2019)

Wow Tom I just caught up on this thread and I am so sorry they did that! 

You save babies everyday, you couldn't save this one from their new owner but that is NOT your fault. They didn't call or reach out for help, you shipped a healthy tort responsibly that was fine for weeks under their care. You can't control your customer's actions but you spend hours of your time everyday making sure we all have the tools, knowledge and as much help as possible to get it as right as we can. They did this, not you. Again, you SAVE torts everyday. 

When I wrote my original post about just refunding half the amount even though it was clearly a healthy baby, I offered that solution to simply bring closure and move on in good faith. I didn't think offering another tort was a good idea because of the customer's history and original response with you. The customer wasn't technically right, but in my experience I've learned sometimes it's best to have closure with certain people and be done forever. 

The credit card company backed you on the chargeback because your actions and reputation has established a clear pattern of doing business ethically and responsibly. Please don't let this owner who had options for help and chose not to use them put this back on you. You reputation cannot be harmed, you have far too much trust, support, and respect on this forum and in the the tort community. Thankfully it took this many years for you to come across one bad owner and hopefully he is the last. Implement any possible changes/contracts/care sheets/trouble shooting tips (if the baby starts to do this, you do that...) to improve the future and be done. And then remember all the good you do everyday for all of us and so many babies, how truly thankful and trusting we are, and sleep well at night.


----------



## AsaPatrick-Ricard (Apr 4, 2019)

Tortoisefanatic88 said:


> The highlighted quote angers me somewhat. Tom you did nothing wrong and even offered a replacement tortoise at half price. For the customer to say any of that I would not offer anything now that the 3rd party has decided in your favor. When I discovered this forum I spent days on here doing reaseach about sulcatas. I knew the person I’d be contacting for a sulcata and all questions I had after just a few days on here......enough said



This made me pretty angry, too. It sounds like they're trying to absolve themselves of responsibility, if it's definitely not a scam. I don't believe people like that should be allowed the privilege of caring for an animal and I'm glad Tom did not send another baby to their household.


----------



## kathyth (Apr 4, 2019)

Something similar to this happened to me. I purchased a Redfoots hatchling from a good Breeder, that we all know. The hatchling was maintained in an appropriate closed chamber, with a healthy diet and daily soaks. 
I didn’t consider asking for a refund. How would it be the breeders fault. 
I don’t think you are responsible at all, to refund anything. I’m surprised the buyer, asked.


----------

