# Russian Tortoise Not Moving Legs and Rubbing Face



## GilbertP24 (Aug 8, 2016)

I am in desperate need of help! My Russian tortoise is extremely sick. Two Saturdays ago (July 30th), my tortoise (Gilbert) started acting very strange. He had (what seemed to be) a lot of mucus coming out of his nose and mouth. By a lot, I mean I kept seeing a bubble come out of his nose and a bubble come out of his house every now and again. Based on research, I figured this was a Respiratory Infection. 

He also seemed like he was choking, but there was no food in his mouth. He was also making this awful sound. It almost sounded like the quack of a duck. I have a video, but the file is too big to attach, so I'm not sure how to show it. Finally, he kept rubbing his face with his front legs. 

Of course, I took him to the vet. She put him on a nebulizer, gave him a 100mg injection of an antibiotic (Gentamycin), and a 2mg injection of a steroid (Dexamethasone). This is all according to the bill. She continued this treatment Monday through Friday of last week. However, M-F, she used another antibiotic (Baytril-Enrofloxacin Injectable) instead of the steroid. I never went back with him, so I'm not sure how all of this went down. 

It is now the Monday, August 8th, and he started acting very strange again yesterday. He started doing that choking-like action again, this time without the sound. He also kept sticking his neck out really far, which was really unusual for him as well. He is continuing to rub his face, and he is extremely lethargic. It seems the only time he's not in pain is when he is asleep, and that is all he does. 

THE BIGGEST CONCERN right now is that he is not using his back legs to walk AT ALL. He barely even responds to touch on his back legs. I took him outside to see if maybe it was just yesterday, but he literally just used his front legs to drag himself around and turn himself in circles.

If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know. I have no idea what to do. I'm in an area where there aren't really any qualified or experienced exotic pet veterinarians, and mine is the best in town. 

P.S. I don't know his age, but if I had to guess, I would say around 20-25. He weighs around 1.16kg. He eats mostly greens: spinach, romaine, radishes, carrots, dandelions, and an occasional strawberry. He is in a 40 (I think) gallon tank with a 75 watt heat lamp. He has a water dish with a ramp, a half-wooden log for hiding, and a rock to put his food on. His substrate is EcoEarth Coconut Fiber Substrate, and usually Zoo Med New Zealand Sphagnum Moss (which is his favorite).


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## Kasia (Aug 8, 2016)

Hi, post some pics of your enclosure and tort, what is the heat lamp you mention and does he get UV light? What are your temps, where did you got him from? Baytril can cause an allergic reaction so inspite of him being sick the new symptoms can be cause by that, I am not a Vet and don't know the doses but maybe other members can help. Seek other reptile specialist advice. Your tort is very sick and he needs diagnosis and medication ASAP.


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## Loohan (Aug 8, 2016)

To post a vid you need to upload to a 3rd party like Youtube and then put the link here.


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## JoesMum (Aug 8, 2016)

Is your vet experienced with torts? Those that aren't can do more harm than good. 

Your tort needs to be kept warm and hydrated and to see a good tort vet. It's sounding pretty bad


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 8, 2016)

Baytril has caused a lot of problems for some tortoises treated with it. 
If you put ' Baytril' into the search function, top right of screen it will bring up lots of results, most of them not good. 
You need to see a proper herp vet asap.


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## Tom (Aug 8, 2016)

GilbertP24 said:


> I am in desperate need of help! My Russian tortoise is extremely sick.



Do you know your four temps? Warm side, cool side, basking area and over night low?

A 40 is fine for a tiny hatchling, but way too small for anything larger than that. Over time this can cause major problems.

The diet you've been offering is not great. All the wrong stuff. This could also be a contributing factor to his long term break down.

What are you using for UV? Where are you in the world? Does he get outside much?


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## GilbertP24 (Aug 8, 2016)

My vet told me to keep him out of his enclosure for right now in case there is something in there that is causing this. So his enclosure is currently torn apart, and I'm not sure what the temp in his enclosure was prior to this. However, he is always warm when I pull him out of his enclosure). Right now, he is just in a plastic tub with a towel, diffuser (I don't have a humidifier, and I figure this is better than nothing), and he is on top on a heated blanket that is keeping the bottom of the tub warm (but never hot). I will get some pics of him and post them on here.

My vet is not very experienced with torts, but no one in town is (and no one nearby is either). There are no reptile specialists here. The vet I'm seeing is the only even remotely qualified one here. I'm worried that the treatment did more harm than good. 

I have been giving him a 20 minute (or longer) warm soak every day. I'm just not sure what else to do.  

I will try to get the videos uploaded to YouTube!


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## JoesMum (Aug 8, 2016)

You need to know those enclosure temperatures. 

He must be able to bask. You must know the temperature directly under the basking lamp. It has to be 95-100F there. 

Your tort cannot digest food without that basking temp being correct. 

You also need to know the warm side, cool side and overnight minimum temperatures.


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## GilbertP24 (Aug 8, 2016)

Tom said:


> Do you know your four temps? Warm side, cool side, basking area and over night low?
> 
> A 40 is fine for a tiny hatchling, but way too small for anything larger than that. Over time this can cause major problems.
> 
> ...



The tank might be a 50 gallon, I'm not really sure. I take him out often and let him walk around, both outside and inside. What food should I be offering? Everything that I've read say that greens are the best for them. 

He was a rescue (came from a like 15 gallon tank). And I'm not sure what they were feeding him exactly before I got him. For UV, I just take him outside and let him get it there. I don't have a bulb in his enclosure or anything. I don't have his enclosure currently put together, so I do not know the four temps.


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## JoesMum (Aug 8, 2016)

GilbertP24 said:


> The tank might be a 50 gallon, I'm not really sure. I take him out often and let him walk around, both outside and inside. What food should I be offering? Everything that I've read say that greens are the best for them.
> 
> He was a rescue (came from a like 15 gallon tank). And I'm not sure what they were feeding him exactly before I got him. For UV, I just take him outside and let him get it there. I don't have a bulb in his enclosure or anything. I don't have his enclosure currently put together, so I do not know the four temps.


Getting UVB by daily exposure outdoors is fine, but basking is required in daytime indoors. Your tort cannot do anything without it. 

As a cold blooded animal it is totally reliant on external heat to be active.


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## Gillian M (Aug 8, 2016)

Kasia said:


> Hi, post some pics of your enclosure and tort, what is the heat lamp you mention and does he get UV light? What are your temps, where did you got him from? Baytril can cause an allergic reaction so inspite of him being sick the new symptoms can be cause by that, I am not a Vet and don't know the doses but maybe other members can help. Seek other reptile specialist advice. Your tort is very sick and he needs diagnosis and medication ASAP.


Definitely so.


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## GilbertP24 (Aug 8, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> Getting UVB by daily exposure outdoors is fine, but basking is required in daytime indoors. Your tort cannot do anything without it.
> 
> As a cold blooded animal it is totally reliant on external heat to be active.



He definitely basks often. I see him basking a lot under his heat lamp. So I know that is happening often. He just hasn't since my first visit to the vet because she said to keep him out of his enclosure and not to take him outside. However, I have taken him outside to at least get a little bit of UV.


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## JoesMum (Aug 8, 2016)

GilbertP24 said:


> He definitely basks often. I see him basking a lot under his heat lamp. So I know that is happening often. He just hasn't since my first visit to the vet because she said to keep him out of his enclosure and not to take him outside. However, I have taken him outside to at least get a little bit of UV.


Your tort is sick. Your tort must still bask. It's even more important now it's sick. You must give it access to basking 12 hours a day. It's probably more important than UVB right now.


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## Tom (Aug 8, 2016)

GilbertP24 said:


> The tank might be a 50 gallon, I'm not really sure. I take him out often and let him walk around, both outside and inside. What food should I be offering? Everything that I've read say that greens are the best for them.
> 
> He was a rescue (came from a like 15 gallon tank). And I'm not sure what they were feeding him exactly before I got him. For UV, I just take him outside and let him get it there. I don't have a bulb in his enclosure or anything. I don't have his enclosure currently put together, so I do not know the four temps.



Please read these for the correct care and diet info:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

I don't want to seem mean, but if no one points out the mistakes you are making, you won't know what to fix. Please read through those two short threads, and you'll see all the things I'm referring to. Please come back and ask for clarification and ask any questions you might have.

I don't think the stress of living in a little tub is going to help your tortoise. I'd set him back up with the proper temperatures, heating and lighting in a large enclosure.


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## GilbertP24 (Aug 8, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> Your tort is sick. Your tort must still bask. It's even more important now it's sick. You must give it access to basking 12 hours a day. It's probably more important than UVB right now.



Okay, I will get the enclosure set up quickly. That's the hard part about living somewhere that there aren't any vets that are experienced.


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## Kasia (Aug 8, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> Getting UVB by daily exposure outdoors is fine, but basking is required in daytime indoors. Your tort cannot do anything without it.
> 
> As a cold blooded animal it is totally reliant on external heat to be active.


For the time of him being sick just keep him warm at least 25 Celsius. Is he swollen? Does he have any red, bloody marks on his shell? Is he peeing, pooping, eating? If not how long does he go without it?


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Aug 8, 2016)

For now, warm soaks daily and bumping the overall temps in the 80's, including nights. 
I agree that the temporary enclosure needs to have the basic items in it (basking lamp, uvb (if youre not taking him outside frequently), water dish, food dish, etc..).
When do you go back to see the vet?


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## GilbertP24 (Aug 8, 2016)

Kasia said:


> For the time of him being sick just keep him warm at least 25 Celsius. Is he swollen? Does he have any red, bloody marks on his shell? Is he peeing, pooping, eating? If not how long does he go without it?



He is not swollen at all. No red, bloody marks on the shell. He peed and pooped last I think 3 days ago during a soak. He has eaten at least a little every day so far.


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## GilbertP24 (Aug 8, 2016)

Linhdan Nguyen said:


> For now, warm soaks daily and bumping the overall temps in the 80's, including nights.
> I agree that the temporary enclosure needs to have the basic items in it (basking lamp, uvb (if youre not taking him outside frequently), water dish, food dish, etc..).
> When do you go back to see the vet?



I go back to see her tomorrow. But I am afraid it will again do more harm than good.


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Aug 8, 2016)

some members have posted the medicine vets want to prescribe to their tortoise and post it on here asking for insight before follwing through. we have a few vets on this forum that may be able to give you valid insight, if you would like. @deadheadvet is the only vet i know off the top of my head.


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## BrianWI (Aug 8, 2016)

You need a competent reptile vet.


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## Kasia (Aug 8, 2016)

GilbertP24 said:


> He is not swollen at all. No red, bloody marks on the shell. He peed and pooped last I think 3 days ago during a soak. He has eaten at least a little every day so far.


Without additional tests, additional blood work don't let Vet give other injections. Ask to run standard morphology, liver and kidney blood work. ASPT, ALT, uric acid . It should be helpful to give diagnosis.


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## GilbertP24 (Aug 8, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> You need a competent reptile vet.




I would love to get one, but there aren't any where I am at.


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## BrianWI (Aug 8, 2016)

Where are you?


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## Kasia (Aug 8, 2016)

Is it possible that he could ate something poisonous?


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## GilbertP24 (Aug 8, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> Where are you?



I'm in Wyoming. According to the vet thread here, the closest one is 3 hours away.


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## GilbertP24 (Aug 8, 2016)

Kasia said:


> Is it possible that he could ate something poisonous?



No, that is not possible unless it happened at the vet's office, which I'm sure wouldn't be the case.


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## BrianWI (Aug 8, 2016)

OK, does he get regular sun? Have a UVB bulb? Calcium supplementation?


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## GilbertP24 (Aug 8, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> OK, does he get regular sun? Have a UVB bulb? Calcium supplementation?



I take him outside often, which is where he gets his UV. No UVB bulb. And I keep cuttlebone in his enclosure, but he doesn't seem do ever much on it.


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## deadheadvet (Aug 8, 2016)

Too many unknowns for me to intervene. No photos, no direct knowledge of how often antibiotics were given, location of injections, etc.
Gentamycin would not be one of my choices for antibiotics, I also would only give Baytril orally not by injection. Don't see how often meds have been given.
There are issues of Russian Tortoises that can be viral in origin. Please include where the tortoise came from, how long you have kept him/her and as previously mentioned, setup, temp, etc.


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## BrianWI (Aug 8, 2016)

Stones, MBD both come to mind, but those are guesses


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## deadheadvet (Aug 8, 2016)

Brian is correct, an xray would be a very good idea to assess bone density and presence of any stones or obstructive process, egg bound?


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## Kasia (Aug 8, 2016)

deadheadvet said:


> Brian is correct, an xray would be a very good idea to assess bone density and presence of any stones or obstructive process, egg bound?


All that said if you like to have your tortie for a little longer please go and get those tests done and consutl with a good reptile specialist even if it's 3 hour drive from your home. One that can actually see your pet.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 9, 2016)

It sounds to me as if the tortoise has something stuck in his throat.


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## GilbertP24 (Aug 10, 2016)

Sorry it has taken so long to reply. There has been no change in Gilbert's attitude or actions. For some reason, I can't seem to upload any pictures, but I finally got videos uploaded to YouTube, so you can see how he has been acting. All three are only between 10 and 30 sections, so they are short. I have him back in his enclosure, and I'm working on getting a laser thermometer gun to measure all of his temperatures. I got him a new bulb (150 watts) for basking, but when I measured the temperature on top of his shell after about 20 minutes, it was 102ºF, which I felt like was too hot, so I switched back to a 75 watt bulb. He seems to be too weak to move himself out from under the heat into his water or under his bridge. He is still only using his front legs to walk, but he hasn't been using them very much. 

I went back to the vet, and she gave me more Baytril, but this time, it is the oral liquid stuff. She said if he doesn't improve by next week, we will take further actions. She didn't seem concerned about him not using his back legs to walk. 

I am soaking him right now. He hasn't pooped in probably 5 days now. But he also won't eat, so there might be a correlation there. After this soak, I am going to try to feed him some dandelions to see if he will eat. But let me know what you guys think of how he is acting in the videos please. 

Also, I saw that one of you said that Baytril Injections can cause paralysis. Is it temporary or permanent paralysis?


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## Yvonne G (Aug 10, 2016)

He can't breathe. Tortoises don't breathe through their mouth, consequently, when they need oxygen, they gasp in a big gulp through the mouth. I wonder if his nose is plugged. You can firmly squirt a couple of quick squirts of sterile saline up each nostril to try to clear them.

He's rubbing his face trying to get rid of whatever he thinks is plugging him up.

Also, his eyes are not open bright and wide. 

Clear his nostrils and finish off the oral Baytril and see if he isn't getting better. Right now, breathing is more important than back leg paralysis.


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## GilbertP24 (Aug 10, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> He can't breathe. Tortoises don't breathe through their mouth, consequently, when they need oxygen, they gasp in a big gulp through the mouth. I wonder if his nose is plugged. You can firmly squirt a couple of quick squirts of sterile saline up each nostril to try to clear them.
> 
> He's rubbing his face trying to get rid of whatever he thinks is plugging him up.
> 
> ...



What is the best way to squirt the saline in his nostril? Like what do I need? How much should I squirt up there?


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## Yvonne G (Aug 10, 2016)

The pharmacy sells little squirt bottles of saline solution. You place the tip of the bottle just inside the nares and give it a good, sharp squeeze, once, twice, three times...quick blasts in order to dislodge whatever is blocking. The other end of the nares goes into the roof of the mouth, so there is no danger of squirting it into his lungs.


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## Pearly (Aug 10, 2016)

Try flushing airway with saline like Yvonne said and I'd try suctioning it out with baby bulb syringe. Just try to get good seal around his nose and see if negative pressure gets anything out. Keep his habitat VERY HUMID! Like with sick babies with respiratory stuff: warm, humid air to breathe, keep trying to suction out that little nose. Better yet, flush followed by suction. Hopefully you can loosen up some crud and get it out, help this little cutie breathe


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## Kasia (Aug 10, 2016)

He looks very puffy and everything above. Keep him warm, they need time for recovery, my tort needed 3 weeks of antibiotic injections to get rid of RI. Be patient, hopefully it will help. Hugs for your tort


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## GilbertP24 (Aug 10, 2016)

Okay, so I just flushed him with saline and sucked out with a baby nose sucker thing. Should I expect results immediately? I mean, he certainly isn't "mouth breathing" as much as he was, but he is still kind of doing it. He keeps pulling his head until his shell now too. Is that normal?


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## Pearly (Aug 10, 2016)

That "flush n'suction" is something of "do it till you get results" kinda thing, you know, just like with human newborn baby or infant, when they are all stopped up you keep at it until you get the crud out their little nose. The poor tort will probably not like it and I'd say if he's fighting you hard, that's a good sign. Just keep at it till you see improvement. Bring your toom humidifier that you use in a winter, and place it right next to his enclosure. Remember: WARM & VERY HUMID!


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## GilbertP24 (Aug 10, 2016)

Pearly said:


> That "flush n'suction" is something of "do it till you get results" kinda thing, you know, just like with human newborn baby or infant, when they are all stopped up you keep at it until you get the crud out their little nose. The poor tort will probably not like it and I'd say if he's fighting you hard, that's a good sign. Just keep at it till you see improvement. Bring your toom humidifier that you use in a winter, and place it right next to his enclosure. Remember: WARM & VERY HUMID!



When you say keep at it, do you mean over and over all at once? Or every ________ minutes? Or what?


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## Pearly (Aug 10, 2016)

I mean over and over very gently but persistently until you can hear clear breath with no whistles, gurgles, crackles or any other sounds. It should be just like a sound of quiet breeze on very calm summer day, nothing else


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## Pearly (Aug 10, 2016)

Of course be sensitive to your tortie being distressed by it and if you feel the distress level outweighs the benefit, stop, put her under the fogger, let her rest.


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## Pearly (Aug 10, 2016)

Another thing you can try if the tortie is VERY CONGESTED with heavy thick secretions, you can (after a good warm soak/humidifier inhalation/saline drops) put her on a clean towel on your knees, tip her her down (not vertical, but let gravity work for you) and gently tap on her back, then suction. You can repeat that few times: suction, then saline flush, head down and tap, then suction again. Always SUCTION FIRST before any other steps to make sure you are not pushing in deeper dome glob of mucous that was "right there" ready to come out.


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## GilbertP24 (Aug 10, 2016)

Pearly said:


> Another thing you can try if the tortie is VERY CONGESTED with heavy thick secretions, you can (after a good warm soak/humidifier inhalation/saline drops) put her on a clean towel on your knees, tip her her down (not vertical, but let gravity work for you) and gently tap on her back, then suction. You can repeat that few times: suction, then saline flush, head down and tap, then suction again. Always SUCTION FIRST before any other steps to make sure you are not pushing in deeper dome glob of mucous that was "right there" ready to come out.



Thank you very much. I will try that. He seemed like he was getting really stressed out, so I stopped for now. He is now under his heat lamp. I got a thermometer gun, and the top of his shell is at 95° currently.


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## GilbertP24 (Aug 10, 2016)

I have done the saline flush and suck twice (3 times each time) and it doesn't seem to be making any improvements. I'm not sure what to do.


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## GilbertP24 (Aug 13, 2016)

I would like to thank you all for all of your responses and time. It is greatly appreciated. Unfortunately, Gilbert passed away today. I am devastated. But thank you for all of your help.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 13, 2016)

GilbertP24 said:


> I would like to thank you all for all of your responses and time. It is greatly appreciated. Unfortunately, Gilbert passed away today. I am devastated. But thank you for all of your help.


I am so terribly, terribly sorry for your loss, you did your best. 
My deepest condolences.


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## JoesMum (Aug 14, 2016)

GilbertP24 said:


> I would like to thank you all for all of your responses and time. It is greatly appreciated. Unfortunately, Gilbert passed away today. I am devastated. But thank you for all of your help.


I am very sorry to hear this.  Big electronic hugs from all of us.


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## ParleG (Aug 14, 2016)

So sorry to hear about your tort... My tortoise, Mango, did likewise. He would still very still and stare until we picked him up or moved him. While giving him a warm bath, he would itch the right side of his face and gasp for air while sticking his neck out... I put him under a heat lamp, but he kept coughing up this water/saliva mix and expelling water from his nose...Just went to check on him, and it seems that he passed. He is completely limp, and his eyes are half closed and very glassy. Absolutely no movement at all . There is this weird yellow liquid coming from his backside, and I feel like that may have been paired with his condition. From the research I've been doing, this is a very acute form of pneumonia that leads to death extremely quickly. I pray that both of our tortoises will rest peacefully.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 15, 2016)

ParleG said:


> So sorry to hear about your tort... My tortoise, Mango, did likewise. He would still very still and stare until we picked him up or moved him. While giving him a warm bath, he would itch the right side of his face and gasp for air while sticking his neck out... I put him under a heat lamp, but he kept coughing up this water/saliva mix and expelling water from his nose...Just went to check on him, and it seems that he passed. He is completely limp, and his eyes are half closed and very glassy. Absolutely no movement at all . There is this weird yellow liquid coming from his backside, and I feel like that may have been paired with his condition. From the research I've been doing, this is a very acute form of pneumonia that leads to death extremely quickly. I pray that both of our tortoises will rest peacefully.


Terribly sorry for your loss. 
I'm sure you loved Mango very much and he had a good life.


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