# Sudanese Sulcata Captive Population and Breeding



## BrookeB (Jan 17, 2021)

*Captive Sudanese genetic population questions*​
1. Is Brad Morris still breeding tortoises? (Not trying to be insensitive if he has passed or something along those lines but I cannot find any information on him or his tortoises)

2. I understand that a very limited number of Sudanese Sulcatas where brought to America, is anyone aware of exact amount of confirmed Sudan Sulcatas that were brought to America?

3. How many where kept for breeding reasons or bred “pure”?

4. If there are only 3 breeders who start hatchlings right are there other breeders who have confirmed Sudanese Sulcatas?

5. Who breeds confirmed Sudanese Sulcatas currently ? (including breeders who don’t start them right)

6. If only 3 good breeders exist at the moment wouldn’t it be important to attempt to include both the (well started) and (bad started) tortoises genetic blood line to increase genetic diversity in our already small genetic population?

7. If the genetic population was started with such a small population then genetic bottlenecking would already be an issue and without diversifying the population we could see genetic drift in the Sudan Sulcata captive population right?

8. Is there anything we can do to preserve our current population and genetically diversify our collective captive collection?

*Questions for breeders or average tortoise enthusiasts *​
9. If given the chance would you start breeding Sudanese Sulcatas? Why or why not?

10. Is there a market for Sudanese Sulcatas?

11. How would you prepare for breeding Sudanese Sulcatas? (other than reading every breeding thread on this forum)

12. Would you want to diversify the genetic population and be considered with keeping Sudanese Sulcatas pure?

13. Is breeding a “normal” Sulcata with a Sudanese appropriate? (Your opinion)

14. What would be the most frowned upon breeding situation or husbandry situation with this species? (Other than starting hatchlings wrong) In your opinion.


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## Blackdog1714 (Jan 17, 2021)

@Tom


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## BrookeB (Jan 17, 2021)

@Yvonne G @NorCal tortoise guy @DeanS
@Arizona Sulcata


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## BrookeB (Jan 17, 2021)

Idk who else to tag, please feel free to tag anyone you think might have an opinion.


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## wellington (Jan 17, 2021)

Members Tom and not real active Dean's both have bought them. If I remember right, they may have done it twice. They are the ones to ask.


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## turtlesteve (Jan 17, 2021)

9. Not likely. It’s too much work here given their enormous size and heat requirements.

10. Yes

11. Move somewhere it never freezes.

12. Maximize diversity while keeping the locales separate.

13. No

14. This question makes more sense for people that currently breed them.


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## BrookeB (Jan 17, 2021)

turtlesteve said:


> 9. Not likely. It’s too much work here given their enormous size and heat requirements.
> 
> 10. Yes
> 
> ...



Truly love your answers. Lol ? 

I know what I’m going to do with the opportunity that was presented to me but I want to be sure of all the aspects even if my mind is already made up, if that makes any sense.


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## Chubbs the tegu (Jan 17, 2021)

4. There are only 3 breeders that start hatchlings right? I find that hard to believe


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## BrookeB (Jan 17, 2021)

Chubbs the tegu said:


> 4. There are only 3 breeders that start hatchlings right? I find that hard to believe



This was what I was told by a highly trusted forum member.


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## NorCal tortoise guy (Jan 17, 2021)

I do not work with the Sudanese Sulcatas at the moment. I am definitely interested in working with them. I think it is definitely important to keep the blood line pure. As far as care and maintenance it is the same as typical Sulcatas.


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## Tom (Jan 17, 2021)

Chubbs the tegu said:


> 4. There are only 3 breeders that start hatchlings right? I find that hard to believe


True. Me, NorCalTortoise guy, and Austin in AZ. I know of no one else that does it right with daily soaks, brooder boxes, and warm humid closed chambers. Everyone else skips the brooder boxes, uses the wrong incubation media (perlite), doesn't soak daily, doesn't introduce enough of a variety of foods to hatchlings, or keeps them outside in the sun all day. If you know of anyone else starting sulcatas correctly, or if anyone else reading this does, let me know and I'd love to increase the number of good sulcata breeders on this list.


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## Tom (Jan 17, 2021)

BrookeB said:


> *Captive Sudanese genetic population questions*​
> 1. Is Brad Morris still breeding tortoises? (Not trying to be insensitive if he has passed or something along those lines but I cannot find any information on him or his tortoises)
> 
> 2. I understand that a very limited number of Sudanese Sulcatas where brought to America, is anyone aware of exact amount of confirmed Sudan Sulcatas that were brought to America?
> ...


Wow! That's a list of questions!

1. No. He's done and gone and so is is breeding partner. His stock of adults got spread all around.
2. No but it was probably in the 100s. No one really knew or cared about different localities, so most were mixed in with sulcatas from Mali, which was the primary place that imports came from back in the day.
3. No one knows the correct answer to this. Probably a few dozen.
4. I know of at least two other breeders in AZ that have Brad's adults. There are more around, but I don't know who they are. @DeanS knows more about this that I do.
5. Getting bad started ones is a big risk. Buy a bunch, house them right and hope for the best. Then it will be 8-10 years before you get a baby, if everything goes well.
6., 7., and 8. This isn't a big deal with reptiles. It would take 99 generations of inbreeding if you started with a single pair before you started having genetic problems from inbreeding according to a geneticist I talked to. 999 generations for cockroaches. Add one more set of genes and the number jumps exponentially. If you were to add one or more to your collection some time down the road, you'd never run into genetic problems in your lifetime, or your children's great grandchildren's life times.
9. That would be a yes for me.
10. Yes. I sell as many as I can produce, and I've seen them on several other sellers lists of offerings. I have TWO left if anyone wants one!  About 85-90 grams now.
11. Too broad of a question. This would take a book to answer. Essentially the same answer for any species.
12. Diversity doesn't matter as much. People buying the babies can get different lines. Breeding them pure matters immensely to me. I'd never mix them. Same with leopards, western hermanni or any other species.
13. No. Never. That is how these things get ruined.
14. Allowing them to get too cold or dehydrated.


.


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## Chubbs the tegu (Jan 17, 2021)

?


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## BrookeB (Jan 17, 2021)

Tom said:


> Wow! That's a list of questions!
> 
> 1. No. He's done and gone and so is is breeding partner. His stock of adults got spread all around.
> 2. No but it was probably in the 100s. No one really knew or cared about different localities, so most were mixed in with sulcatas from Mali, which was the primary place that imports came from back in the day.
> ...



wow I’m actually surprised by 6.7.8 but that’s why I asked! Thank you Tom ?

In your case 9 makes total sense ?

I am trying to learn as much as I can before I jump in the deep end so I’m sorry for so many questions ?


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