# regulation for Sulcatas?



## StudentoftheReptile (Apr 3, 2012)

This is another one of those thought-provoking topics that will likely lead to some interesting discussion. Anything to keep those keyboards from getting too cool, right guys? LOL...Anyway, this is somewhat related to the recent threads about reptile laws & regulation, and animal welfare, etc. So here it is...

*This is about SULCATA tortoises.* The relative ease of breeding and high reproduction rate (i.e. number of eggs/offspring produced from a single laying) obviously results in these animals being readily available to the general public at a relatively low cost. Now I know breeding any tortoise is a tad harder than say breeding cornsnakes or geckos, and I also know the expense of raising baby tortoises is a little more respectively as well. So I'm acutely aware that sulcata breeders aren't exactly millionaires.

But the issue lies (and I think most of you know where I'm going) in the fact that, while many of these baby sulcatas are widely distributed to pet stores, other dealers and vendors, etc., they are still easily acquired by Joe Public for fairly cheap (arguably, only a wildcaught Russian tortoise is cheaper in most cases). Problem? As many of us know, the sulcata is not a beginner animal. They grow relatively rapidly, and can achieve large adult sizes. Furthermore, there is the common issue of poor husbandry information being perpetuated, which results in many premature baby sulcata deaths. Without going into a lot of detail that many of us have discussed at length before, a sulcata is, quite simply, not suitable in proportion to its availability.

On another thread a while back (I forget the title and can't find it), but the main topic was related to rescues and shelters. I think the issue was hinted at, in that there is obviously a initial market for baby sulcatas. Breeders have the incentive to raise large numbers to meet the demand, and allegedly have little trouble selling every baby they have available. The incentive of course is to produce as many, if not more the following season. But there's the problem that 5-10 yrs down the road where, aside from premature deaths due to poor husbandry, unwanted sulcatas are turning up at rescues and Craigslist, etc...even before they've actually reached adult size of 100+ lbs. So what is the market really? Is it from hobbyists who are genuinely committed to acquiring a tortoise that will likely outgrow them, or just impulse purchase from newbs who want a cute baby tortoise?

What can be done about this? I don't have a clear solution, only ideas. One main, re-occurring one is simply for breeders to cut back and not produce as many baby sulcatas each year. Along with limiting the availability to Joe Public, it would also drive up the initial cost of the animals. This could possibly deter any impulse purchases. After all, right now, you may be able get a baby sulcata for less than $75. If they were twice that amount, you may be more inclined to get another species.

The poll is more generalized for anyone to vote. _*Now, the following questions are specifically for those who breed sulcatas.*_

1.) On average, how many sulcata babies do you produce each year?
2.) What do you do with most of the offspring (i.e. keep them, adopt them out to friends, or sell them)?
3.) If you do sell the majority of your offspring, who is your primary clientele (i.e. pet stores, other reptile dealers, directly to general public, or an even mixture)?
4.) If/when selling to other vendors (pet stores/dealers), do you provide your care information for your hatchlings for them to pass on to their customers?
5.) Do you feel that perhaps breeding/producing less babies per season would have any real impact on the market for this species, and help keep more babies out of the hands of irresponsible buyers?
6.) Are there any steps or actions you currently take to aid in this issue, and if so, care to share?


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## Neal (Apr 3, 2012)

I think making this issue the fault of the people breeding sulcatas is really just a red herring. 

Yes, there are rescues and shelters over-run with adult sulcatas, but the ones we have discussed that have the biggest issues are also making it near impossible for anyone to adopt or purchase the tortoises. I believe the reality is that a large percentage, if not all, of the adult sulcatas in these rescues could find good homes rather easily. 

So, my opinion on the matter is that breeding sulcatas is not the the issue, it's the uneducated buyers who are creating the issue. When the tortoise becomes too much for them to handle, for whatever reason it seems that their conclusion is that it must go to a shelter instead of first trying to find private individuals who could give the tortoise a home. This creates a distorted picture of what is really happening with sulcatas.

In terms of business and making money, I can't fault a breeder who is satisfying the demand.


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## cemmons12 (Apr 3, 2012)

I have to agree with Neal on this one.....


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## Neal (Apr 3, 2012)

I think a more effective solution, though not very realistic, is to enforce some kind of law where the breeder would have to take back all of the unwanted animals they produce. When the BREEDERS are over-run with tortoises (could apply to other animals), then the breeding stops and the market would be at a true equilibrium I guess you could say.

This wouldn't seem very fair to the breeders since, again, they were originally satisfying the demands of the market. But, I'm just making an argument for debate-sake.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Apr 3, 2012)

Thanks for the response, Neal.

Just to be clear, this isn't necessarily a big finger-wagging in the face of every individual who breeds sulcatas, saying "This is all YOUR fault!" and I apologize if it came across that way. I understand just like dog breeders, there are good people and not-so-good ones. I know most breeders fall somewhere in the delicate spectrum of enjoying their hobby and making money. I'm certainly an advocate for both as long as the animals' health is paramount.

I still would wish there was some sort of accurate survey that can be conducted that would determine the percentages of baby sulcatas that:
- die within the first few years of purchase
- are kept by the initial purchaser (excusing vendors that may be intermediary between breeder and customer)
- are turned in to a rescue or shelter within the first decade
- rehomed or sold to another individual


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## TylerStewart (Apr 3, 2012)

There's no way on earth that the government would be enthusiastic about lifting a finger about this. They can't even get a grasp on dog overpopulation which is a much larger problem. I would hope if they did, that we would get people like USARK blocking silly ideas like this from being put into law. It scares me that tortoise enthusiasts are the ones bringing up ideas like this. It's been discussed a million times; the "rescues" that actually do have lots of sulcatas (which is extremely few) aren't just giving them out to good homes. I offered to one of them (that was apparently complaining about having too many) a year or two ago that I'd be there on Saturday to pick up 20 or 30 of them, and they said "sure thing, we charge $5 per pound" or some silliness like that. 

Keep in mind, a huge number of sulcatas that are produced in the US each year hatch into someone's backyard and are passed off to family and friends or sold on street corners or at swap meets. There's no way anybody could track down all those "breeders" and make any rules apply to them. It's not fair to put rules on the more well-known breeders and neglect the likely higher number that are sold under the radar. 

Again, there is no overpopulation. I think many of you would be shocked beyond belief to see the number that are actually produced per year in the US. The tiny, tiny, (tiny) fraction that end up available for adoption at some point down the road is a drop in the bucket.


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## Tom (Apr 3, 2012)

Before we can really discuss your questions, we should really discuss some of your premises first. I don't agree with some of your assertions. I think sulcatas are a fantastic beginner tortoise. IF they are started correctly they are super hardy, easy to care for, personable and outgoing, easy to feed, very adaptable to a wide variety of conditions, attractive, fun, etc... Education is necessary for ANY species of tortoise. Where I live their size is not an issue since the climate lends itself to outdoor living year round. Same for most of AZ, South FL and other warm parts of the country.

Sulcatas are at the forefront of highlighting the problems of ignorance, apathy, and lack of research because of the sheer numbers produced. I don't think these potential issues are sulcata issues, I think they are the same issues that exist for any other captive animal. We just see it more with sulcatas because of the numbers produced and bought. If you could push a magic button and remove every sulcata from the face of the Earth, these same problems would exist with whatever species took their place. This is why I don't think dealing with a "perceived" sulcata issue will solve any problems. In effect, I think that would be a mediocre solution for dealing with a symptom, while completely ignoring the bigger problem of public ignorance and unscrupulous sellers.

Some humans just make bad decisions some times. Regulating and restricting the vast majority of the rest of the people is not a suitable solution to me.


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## dmmj (Apr 3, 2012)

As long as the breeder is misrepresenting the truth about the animal then it is the buyer's responsibility in this matter, keep the government's hands off of my tortoises.
To Paraphrase " from my cold dead hands"


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## StudentoftheReptile (Apr 3, 2012)

dmmj said:


> As long as the breeder is misrepresenting the truth about the animal then it is the buyer's responsibility in this matter,



Maybe its a little late in the day, but I don't think I follow that logic. I do agree that buyers should educate themselves before acquiring any animal...but if the breeder is misrepresenting the truth, are you saying that they shouldn't be accountable?


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## dmmj (Apr 3, 2012)

Unless the breeder is lying to the customer about the particular animal ( dwarf sulcata and stuff like that) then it falls on the buyer to realize what they are getting into, why hold the breeder responsible if they did not do anything wrong?


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## StudentoftheReptile (Apr 3, 2012)

Ahh...I think you meant to say "unless" instead of "As long as" in your first post.


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## dmmj (Apr 3, 2012)

Yes I see now I meant unless


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## StudentoftheReptile (Apr 3, 2012)

No worries, D!



TylerStewart said:


> It's been discussed a million times; the "rescues" that actually do have lots of sulcatas (which is extremely few) aren't just giving them out to good homes.



"Lots" is relative, and I understand that the situation is very different within each state, or even within a specific county. We only have one reptile rescue in my area, and it doesn't get a lot of tortoises in (perhaps its just not well-known). In contrast, all three of the zoos in a 2 hour driving distance all have more than their fair share of adult sulcatas (in relation to the zoo's size, I suppose). Pretty sure the zoos aren't deliberately seeking out to purchase them, so where does one suppose they're coming from?



> Keep in mind, a huge number of sulcatas that are produced in the US each year hatch into someone's backyard and are passed off to family and friends or sold on street corners or at swap meets.



True...but again, how many of those friends, relatives, street corner acquaintances, etc. are really equipped to care for a tortoise? Even if they don't plan to care for them longterm, what happens to the tortoises after that? One successful breeding (accidental or otherwise) can result in 20+ babies. And say that Big Bertha and Goliath "get it on" every year accidentally. Do the math. Are the same people getting a baby year after year at the street corner, or a swap meet, or at a family gathering? Heck, if so, is it possible they're replacing the one that they got last year that may have died from poor care?

I'm not saying this is always the case, but I think these questions should be asked. I'm sure the situation varies case to case, but there's a lot of people at the street corner, or even my own relatives or friends that I simply would not feel comfortable passing off a baby tortoise just find it a home.



> There's no way anybody could track down all those "breeders" and make any rules apply to them. It's not fair to put rules on the more well-known breeders and neglect the likely higher number that are sold under the radar.



Very true.



> Again, there is no overpopulation. I think many of you would be shocked beyond belief to see the number that are actually produced per year in the US. The tiny, tiny, (tiny) fraction that end up available for adoption at some point down the road is a drop in the bucket.



I can accept my assertions may been a little overdramatic. But I'd still like to see a survey like the one I described earlier.


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## Tom (Apr 3, 2012)

When I talk to any potential buyer I tell them that sulcatas are not the best tortoise for everyone. I tell them they get very large, very destructive, eat a ton every day, dig giant man sized burrows, eat all the landscaping in a back yard, destroy the dry wall on the side of a house, and require a tropical temperature heated house all winter long. I also tel them that if you can properly house a pig or a horse on your property, then you can also properly house a sulcata. I let the know that babies need quite a lot of attention for at least the first year, but after that they are relatively low maintenance compared many other large animals.

I have talked a LOT of people out of buying a sulcata. Green iguanas and Nile monitors too. I want people to have whatever pets they want, but I want them to educate themselves FIRST, and make good decisions. If I have to be that vehicle of education then I'm happy to do it. However, me, you and the government have no right to tell anyone that they CAN'T do it. This means that we will have the occasional idiot amongst the majority of people who make the right decisions. Even if there was some sort of ban, test, or other restriction, you will still have idiots that do idiotic things. Regulation and government don't ever stop idiots or criminals. It just infringes on the freedom and rights of the vast majority of people who were never going to do anything idiotic in the first place. Just look around. Drunk driving is stupid, illegal and completely rrehensible. Idiots still do it. I don't know how much more illegal or regulated it could be, short of shooting any one who blows over .08 right there on the side of the road (which I would be in favor of), but it still happens all over the country every day. Obviously drunk driving is a very serious matter, a very real problem, and a serious danger to the public at large. People ignorantly choosing the wrong species of pet tortoise is not a matter of great national importance that warrants even the slightest government involvement. How about we encourage our government to work on solutions to real problems like violent crime, wasteful government over-spending, corrupt politicians and cops, repeat offender drunk drivers, etc...

Student, I don't think you were around for the last few rounds of this discussion about rescues and the situations that they create, but Tyler alluded to it. Rescues have so many because some of them make it ridiculously difficult, invasive and expensive to "adopt" a poor homeless sulcata. I pointed out that in my area only two sulcatas have ever been turned into the shelter and both of them were adopted out within hours of becoming available. The rescues should simply ship there huge surplus of sulcatas to my local animal shelter. They would be adopted and rehomed so fast that they wouldn't even miss a meal. Someone posted about an owner turn in at my local shelter at 12:30 pm one day here on the forum. When I saw the post and called at 1:30 the person had already picked up the tortoise finished the paperwork and left with their new tortoise. Now I have a standing order with them to call me if any tortoise of any species comes in. My phone number is posted up on the wall, so any shelter employee can all me. It's been around two years and that call has not ever come...


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## StudentoftheReptile (Apr 3, 2012)

Tom said:


> I think sulcatas are a fantastic beginner tortoise. IF they are started correctly they are super hardy, easy to care for, personable and outgoing, easy to feed, very adaptable to a wide variety of conditions, attractive, fun, etc... Education is necessary for ANY species of tortoise. Where I live their size is not an issue since the climate lends itself to outdoor living year round. Same for most of AZ, South FL and other warm parts of the country.



Mark said something kind of along those lines on the show this past Saturday. Keeping redfoots (or any tortoise) is kind of like a saltwater aquarium; its not rocket science, but there are guidelines you need to adhere to to be successful.

I could say the same about green iguanas, or large monitor lizards. They require comparable amount of daily maintenance and can live outdoors most of the year in much of the country. But they are not beginner reptiles anymore than a sulcata is IMHO.



> Sulcatas are at the forefront of highlighting the problems of ignorance, apathy, and lack of research because of the sheer numbers produced. I don't think these potential issues are sulcata issues, I think they are the same issues that exist for any other captive animal. We just see it more with sulcatas because of the numbers produced and bought.



I never said these types of problems don't exist in other species. Obviously, neglect and poor husbandry can occur with any species. I feel the same way about green iguanas, savannah monitors (although they're imported rather then bred), as well as large constrictors. The only reason I was targeting sulcatas in this thread was because:
1.) this is a tortoise forum
2.) compared to all other tortoise species, in terms of ease of breeding, clutch size, average "retail" cost and availability to the general public, the sulcata surpasses all others.

Russians are arguably just as readily available, if not more so. However, they stay small, which means the original owner is more likely to keep them. While smaller and arguably just as common, redfoots, yellowfoots and leopards (to name a few) don't produce as high clutch sizes and are mroe in demand because of their more vivid coloration = higher prices. IMHO, higher prices tend to deter the uneducated with money to burn.

The people who didn't do their homework and just "want a cut pet tortoise" are more likely to choose a baby sulcata for $75-100, then a redfoot for $150 or a leopard for $125. Sure the wildcaught Russian is a little cheaper, but the little hatchling sullie is cuter and starting smaller is better, right?



> This is why I don't think dealing with a "perceived" sulcata issue will solve any problems. In effect, I think that would be a mediocre solution for dealing with a symptom, while completely ignoring the bigger problem of public ignorance and unscrupulous sellers.



So how do we fix it? Selling/giving them a baby sulcata with the best caresheet you can provide, a link to TFO, and your phone number & email address isn't cutting it.



> Some humans just make bad decisions some times. Regulating and restricting the vast majority of the rest of the people is not a suitable solution to me.



I agree. Good points.

Tom, you posted as I was writing my last one. It sucks that some rescues are like that. But I apologize for being a little over-zealous in making the situation more than it really is. You are most certainly correct, in that there are more important things to worry about in this world than homeless or neglected tortoises.

Just wish there was a more "forceful" way to battle ignorance than just giving the information and hoping for the best.


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## Tom (Apr 3, 2012)

Just two points from the above: In contrast to a large iguana or monitor, a sulcata is not going to hurt anybody or suddenly run away and escape...

And I don't think "we" "fix" anything. I think what "we" do is have forums and discussions like this one and try to get people motivated to help educate the public and fellow herpers. I don't think we suggest courses of action that only serve to hurt us, while the guilty idiots continue on with their idiocy. I think this issue is dealt with on an individual personal level with each seller and each buyer. Why do you want to restrict me and my business dealings because some other seller lies and has no idea how to properly raise a baby. I say we all go after the baddies and leave the reputable people alone. We could organize phone and email campaigns. We could find people who live near the baddie go talk to them personally. We could organize boycotts and try to steer people away from the evil doers... There is lots that could be done with out inviting more ridiculous government intrusion.


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## Arizona Sulcata (Apr 3, 2012)

I think the last thing our government needs is more regulation on anything.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Apr 3, 2012)

Well, regarding my comparison of sulcatas to iguanas and monitors, I was mainly referring the responsibility and upkeep of a larger reptile, and the animal's welfare when being neglected, etc.


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## Tom (Apr 3, 2012)

The upkeep for my large adult outdoor lizards is about the same as the upkeep on my adult outdoor sulcatas. There really isn't much for either.


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## TylerStewart (Apr 3, 2012)

I would guess that any zoo that has sulcatas, wanted them when they were offered. They probably did get them for free and that's fine. I would also guess that these zoos with lots of sulcatas would not give them up easily. 

The word "lots" is not that relative.... "Lots of sulcatas" can mean 10 or 100 for all I care, but there's not many (or any) rescues with either number in them that are eager to give them up; certainly not for free. Like Tom said, you must have missed the past debates on this where it was all sorted through. I have yet to see a rescue that has more than the occasional sulcata that would give them up easily. From what I know, the mass majority are in AZ, and are not eagerly handed out without a "more than retail" adoption fee. When I offered to go pick up 20, nobody said a word to me about bringing photos of my facility. They wanted cash and said to make sure I had a trailer to haul them in. 



> True...but again, how many of those friends, relatives, street corner acquaintances, etc. are really equipped to care for a tortoise? Even if they don't plan to care for them longterm, what happens to the tortoises after that? One successful breeding (accidental or otherwise) can result in 20+ babies. And say that Big Bertha and Goliath "get it on" every year accidentally. Do the math. Are the same people getting a baby year after year at the street corner, or a swap meet, or at a family gathering? Heck, if so, is it possible they're replacing the one that they got last year that may have died from poor care?



That's got nothing to do with the regulation that I was referring to.... I understand that lots of sulcatas die. I understand that there will always be people out there that take one in and aren't prepared for it. Nobody is ever going to argue that it doesn't happen, but "doing the math" doesn't mean anything to this conversation because I was talking about whether or not a law or rule should be imposed on someone. If they attempted to regulate anything about sulcatas, there would be a huge number of them still trading hands that are not going to be regulated. It's impossible to sort through them all. We all know they produce a lot. It hasn't seemed to matter because the demand is still significantly higher for all sizes. I can't keep them in stock LOL. 

EDIT:
I just re-read through the poll options, and this premise is way off.... 



> Any sellers (breeders included) should screen potential buyers thoroughly and be willing to lose a sale



How would that ever be enforced? Beyond hoping for that now, is someone going to be assigned to stand in between a buyer and seller and make sure everyone plays by the rules? Ditto goes for: _Potential buyers should have to take an exam that says they acknowledge the adult size and husbandry care of a sulcata._

These might be good things to suggest to potential buyers/sellers here in the forum, but for the other 98% of tortoise selling activity that goes on, it's not going to happen. 

I want to start a new poll:
1. No regulation is needed. 
2. Government should put itself further into debt to battle this crisis. 
3. Some rules might be nice, but I realize that nobody has the time to deal with it, so no regulation is needed. 
4. Screw it, I'm moving to Panama.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Apr 3, 2012)

Arizona Sulcata said:


> I think the last thing our government needs is more regulation on anything.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Apr 3, 2012)

TylerStewart said:


> Like Tom said, you must have missed the past debates on this where it was all sorted through. I have yet to see a rescue that has more than the occasional sulcata that would give them up easily.



Obviously I did. I acknowledged this already, and I'm sorry to hear there are such poor rescues out west.



> That's got nothing to do with the regulation that I was referring to.... I understand that lots of sulcatas die. I understand that there will always be people out there that take one in and aren't prepared for it. Nobody is ever going to argue that it doesn't happen, but "doing the math" doesn't mean anything to this conversation because I was talking about whether or not a law or rule should be imposed on someone. If they attempted to regulate anything about sulcatas, there would be a huge number of them still trading hands that are not going to be regulated. It's impossible to sort through them all. We all know they produce a lot. It hasn't seemed to matter because the demand is still significantly higher for all sizes. I can't keep them in stock LOL.



Sorry to disagree, but I think "doing the math" DOES mean something to this topic, and some of your statements above actually help prove my point. The whole point of me bringing up the whole regulation thing was my concern that too many are either going unwanted or die prematurely (mostly likely from poor care).

Now, I retract my initial insinuation that there are "hundreds and thousands" of homeless sulcatas all across the country living boring lives in crowded shelters. But you said it yourself, "lots of sulcatas die" and "there will always be people out there that take one in and aren't prepared for it." That's the main issue here.

I understand regulation is unfair, unrealistic, and un-enforcable. It simply won't work for reasons others have already described. But the impression I get from your last statement there is: If people are having problems with their sulcatas, it isn't your problem; i.e. as long as people keep buying 'em, you'll keep breedin' and selling them. 

Which goes back to my querie of: how many babies sold (or given away at the street corner, as you say) make it past their first year?



> How would that ever be enforced? Beyond hoping for that now, is someone going to be assigned to stand in between a buyer and seller and make sure everyone plays by the rules?



No. It's something only the seller can enforce on themselves. What I meant was that if you come across someone and have a conversation with them, and you get the feeling that a sulcata may not be the right tortoise for them, should/would you refuse the sale? Have you (not you personally but anyone who sells) ever have the experience where you sold an animal, and as the customer walked away, you had the slimy feeling of "You know, that animal probably won't last a month in that person's care." THAT'S that situation I'm talking about. And again, I'm not necessarily singling out sulcatas here, I've posed the same question to dealers who sell large constrictors, and monitors, and iguanas, etc.



> I want to start a new poll:
> 1. No regulation is needed.
> 2. Government should put itself further into debt to battle this crisis.
> 3. Some rules might be nice, but I realize that nobody has the time to deal with it, so no regulation is needed.
> 4. Screw it, I'm moving to Panama.



Go ahead!  Although I may vote for moving to Belize!


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## BrookeB (Apr 3, 2012)

I just have one question... I am a new owner and all but I HAVE been looking to "save" a male sulcata for the past 2 months and I have not found a "rescue" in my area that is over run with any sulcatas... I mean there are 3 sulcatas on craigslist and a leo at the pound near me but thats all I was able to find... If that is really the problem I would say it's not much of an issue.. seeing as there are 1000s of dogs at the pound around my area... or even 100s of RES at the pound... I may not know what I am talking about but if they do make a law it would probable only make it harder for the people who are doing things "right" or tring to help... but idk


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## dmmj (Apr 3, 2012)

In california most of the rescues tend to go to the local CTTC. You see people on CL selling them, but the CTTC does no fee adoptions.


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## TylerStewart (Apr 3, 2012)

StudentoftheReptile said:


> Sorry to disagree, but I think "doing the math" DOES mean something to this topic, and some of your statements above actually help prove my point. The whole point of me bringing up the whole regulation thing was my concern that too many are either going unwanted or die prematurely (mostly likely from poor care).
> 
> Now, I retract my initial insinuation that there are "hundreds and thousands" of homeless sulcatas all across the country living boring lives in crowded shelters.





StudentoftheReptile said:


> But you said it yourself, "lots of sulcatas die" and "there will always be people out there that take one in and aren't prepared for it." That's the main issue here.



Just because I understand the reality of it doesn't mean I like it or agree with it. 



StudentoftheReptile said:


> I understand regulation is unfair, unrealistic, and un-enforcable. It simply won't work for reasons others have already described. But the impression I get from your last statement there is: If people are having problems with their sulcatas, it isn't your problem; i.e. as long as people keep buying 'em, you'll keep breedin' and selling them.
> 
> Which goes back to my querie of: how many babies sold (or given away at the street corner, as you say) make it past their first year?



Sorry, I misunderstood that this was an unbiased poll. If the intent was to locate a group of people that agreed with your idea that there should be regulation, I assumed that would have been pointed out in the original post. 



> But the impression I get from your last statement there is: If people are having problems with their sulcatas, it isn't your problem; i.e. as long as people keep buying 'em, you'll keep breedin' and selling them.



Not sure where in the world you got that impression. I have never seen anyone more willing to take back a previously-sold tortoise than I am. I bought back at full price a large group of cherryheads I had previously sold, as well as burmese browns recently. You apparently also missed the thread where I registered "SulcataRescue.com" where I openly will take in any unwanted sulcatas. It's still in the works, and my prediction is that there will never be tortoises in my rescue, but I am here to save the world with it anyways. Don't get all excited and defensive, it's all going to be ok. Sometimes we all need to be reminded "it's a freaking internet forum." At least the people threatening to beat me up because I hurt their feelings in the forum have mostly stopped.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Apr 3, 2012)

It IS an unbiased poll. I don't care one bit if anyone agrees with me (totally used to it). In fact, I probably agree with you and Tom more than you think.

You are correct in that it is just the internet. This was just a stupid meaningless poll that won't matter a hill of beans tomorrow. I wasn't expecting everyone to agree with every one of my points, and I had a feeling I was going to ruffle some feathers.

I've only been here less than a year, so you're right: there's a lot that I have missed. I had no idea you registered SulcataRescue.com. Kudos to you. And I am with you in hopes that you never have to take in a single animal.

I still stand by some of my points in that sellers in general should take more responsibility with all the animals they offer. Tom's right: its a case-by-case thing. Its not something the govt can fix. Its something WE as the responsible faction of the herp community can fix.


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## froghaven5 (Apr 3, 2012)

I have to admit that my family went to a reptile show and saw all the baby tortoise and on "impulse" bought our baby sulcata. We really loved the leopard, but did not want to spend the money they were charging. We were not given a care sheet. Fortunately we immediately went on line and found TFO. Now if there was a "waiting period" we may have thought about the decision to begin caring for a tortoise a bit more carefully. We were well aware of the size sulcatas can get, but maybe not as aware of the care they need.


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## Tom (Apr 3, 2012)

Just to be clear, I wasn't referring to Western rescues. Many of them are this way all over the country. I happen to know of at least one rescue out West where the person running it takes in tortoises and actually offers them out to good homes, without charging a fortune or making anyone sign ridiculous contracts. This is why I carefully phrase it as "some" rescues or even "most rescues" when I have something negative to say. There are really people out there helping tortoises in need, but there are also some people with maniacal ideas in their heads who end up hoarding large numbers of them for a variety of reasons. This is not a Western phenomenon, it is a national one.



dmmj said:


> In california most of the rescues tend to go to the local CTTC. You see people on CL selling them, but the CTTC does no fee adoptions.



How many sulcatas would you guess your chapter sees in a typical year, Cap'n?


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## Jacqui (Apr 3, 2012)

I think the breeders (and this is not just with sulcatas) of any kind of animal should ask questions of buyers and decide from the answers, IF a person should be able to get the animal. I think those questions should be in depth enough to count as a test.

The area I live in is lucky in one way and that is there are not a lot of turned in tortoises. However the ones I have saw or heard of in the last few years, have been lead with sulcata being the most common followed then by Russians and last Redfoots. Except for a couple of sulcatas that as I recall were from a drug or maybe abuse case, the rest were the, "I saw these adorable little hatchlings and just had to buy them as they were so cheap..... now they are getting to be big and troublesome...". I am only hearing normally about a couple each year. Not large numbers, but also keep in mind that keeping an adult in this area is a major undertaking, so even a few does create a large problem.

I don't think the government should be making laws or enforcing them, but sadly I do not think the majority of the breeders and sellers of these cute little creatures are going to regulate themselves either. Yes, the "good" ones will, but those folks are few and far between. I really don't think there is a way to get breeders/sellers to regulate themselves... talking the "bad" ones here. To them the money is primary concern and I can understand that for them it's a business. It's hard to look past today's sells and needs to what the future may or may not hold. 

As for rescues, like everything else in this world, there are good ones and bad ones. I know of a few, who won't even look at an application from me, based solely on where I live. Part of me can understand that, but to me knowledge and willingness to go beyond the easy or normal to keep one should also weigh into the equation. I have saw pictures of a couple of "rescues" where personally I think the animals need to be rescued from them.  I dislike doing the paperwork and always feel like my care or enclosures will not stack up, be it for a sulcata or a hingeback, but I do like the fact that I am being made to "jump through the hoops".


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## tortoiselady (Apr 3, 2012)

How many sulcatas would you guess your chapter sees in a typical year, Cap'n?


[/quote]

I can't answer for Cap'n Chapter, but I can for me and my CTTC chapter. I am currently holding 4 small sulcatas and I have 3 more large ones begging me to take them in. Oh, that is just the sulcata count for March. Our chapter does not have any place to put them. They do require some space and quarantine from each other - we just don't have a piece of land and a building to work from. 100% volunteer workers and we do not charge a dime - happy to take in tax deductible donations as it is impossible to keep up with the vet bills from the poorly cared for tortoise of ALL kinds that we do see. We do require seeing your yard in person because we really don't want them back (they need good permanent homes), and people have lied over and over again about how BIG their property really is - NOT. An apartment or townhouse courtyard is not going to hold that 100 pound male I need a home for. With that said I am not going to be driving to Arizona to see your yard and deliver you a sulcata. We hope to actually place them in Southern California where they already are. 

Note: I personally hate big government so I hope people can be more responsible and police themselves. Enjoy the rest of the debate


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## bfmorris (Apr 3, 2012)

> StudentoftheReptile wrote:
> I could say the same about green iguanas, or large monitor lizards.



haha, Why stop at reptiles, I could say the same thing about the large number of people who cant keep their dogs behind a fence, or on a leash, or we could ponder why a disproportionate number of pitbull owners appear to be outwardly, a couple bricks short the load.

The OP of this thread looks like an ideologically driven solution in search of a problem. No thanks.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Apr 3, 2012)

Lots of great points made in this thread so far, and I'm humble enough to admit that my initial assertions were a bit dramatic. The "overpopulation theory" has apparently already been debunked before my time, and I apologize for reviving ancient history.



bfmorris said:


> The OP of this thread looks like an ideologically driven solution in search of a problem. No thanks.



No, the problem was, is, and likely will always be there. No searching necessary. As Tyler said it himself, lots of baby sulcatas still die all the time and there are always going to be people impulse-purchasing cute baby tortoises who have no idea what they're getting into, and have no desire to learn.

Is this exclusively an issue with sulcatas? Of course not. Is having the govt getting involved going to make anything any better? Nope, probably make things worse. I'm not naive or "idealistic" enough to think otherwise. I'm with you guys; less Big Brother, the better. 

My point is that whatever we're doing now is not working. This "out of sight, out of mind" mentality isn't any more effective than having the feds come in and start regulating everything we do. The whole "Well, I'm the good guy; its the guy next to me who is the problem. I'll just focus on what I'm doing and hope for the best" outlook isn't shaping up that well either.

If govt regulation isn't the answer (which I know it isn't), what is? Simply educating folks isn't enough...at least not in my book. Do I have the answer? Not really. Is there even an answer? Perhaps not. Are there more important things in this world to worry about that whether or not certain shouldn't keep tortoises? Indeed. Call me prejudice, but I'm just a guy who hates hearing about neglected animals in the hands of idiots and wants to find a solution. We don't want govt getting involved. So what's the alternative?


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## Tom (Apr 3, 2012)

NOW we are on the same page! I'm hoping that what seemed like a call for more government involvement was an attempt to stimulate discussion.

Nobody wants to see tortoises, or any other animal, subjected to bad care due to ignorance, complacency or neglect. Even the people doing it are not happy about it.

That this happens is a sad fact of human nature. I don't see anything that can be done about it except to try and educate people. I do this on a daily basis. I do it here. I do it at work. I do it where ever I see dried up tortoises on rabbit pellets... 

It took time for every body to learn to keep them dry because they come from a desert area. It will take time for them to learn that that was wrong. The harder me, you and everyone else tries to spread the word, the faster this transition will take place. We need a rich benefactor to put up billboards and do television commercials. We can start a national "Give your thirsty tortoise a drink" day, to bring attention to the plight of the baby sulcatas in this country. Not everybody will hear it. Not everybody will abide by it. But I don't see anything else that can reasonably work. Its just like dogs. I tell everyone not to try and make a backyard pet out of a working dog, but it happens all over the country and the dogs and the people suffer. Tell everyone. Its easier to just walk by and not get involved and thats what most people do. I say DON'T just walk by. Talk to the manager about "hatchling failure syndrome" and dehydration. If he's not receptive, go talk to the care taker who does the hands on work. Sometimes they are receptive. Talk to breeders. Everyone on this forum who bought a baby from a breeder or a pet shop who is still participating in the tortoise dark ages, call or email them and let them know you are not happy and they need to learn. Everyone needs to spend some of their time to help eradicate this problem... And to the people who keep buying from these dry routine breeders. STOP IT!!! Buy from someone who starts them right. Hit the baddies where it hurts. In their wallet. They will learn so fast your head will spin when it affects their bottom line...


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## Jacqui (Apr 4, 2012)

Okay, since this is a debate thread....

IF we do nothing, then those breeding sulcata will keep on breeding. Meanwhile more and more sulcata are reaching the breeding agewith more and more people learning how to take it from egg to hatchling and thus will soon be adding even more sulcata hatchlings onto the market.

IF as some think, we are improving the care of hatchlings and the lack of "proper" care is why so many die at this stage of life, then we should be seeing more and more hatchlings survive and grow up. That would mean in a few years a huge, even bigger influx of adults from these "saved" current hatchlings to make more hatchlings.

Sooo following this same "what if" scenario, it seems currently rescues are often just keeping up with the supply and demand for rescue sulcata, if we have an increase in them will that still hold true? At what point is the placement situation going to fail to keep up with the out put from breeders, if nothing is done to change things? What may be currently a small problem, could easily in ten years (or less) become a much more major one at this rate.


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## bfmorris (Apr 4, 2012)

StudentoftheReptile said:


> Lots of great points made in this thread so far, and I'm humble enough to admit that my initial assertions were a bit dramatic. The "overpopulation theory" has apparently already been debunked before my time, and I apologize for reviving ancient history.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Noop. Still a solution in search of a problem, now couched in a verbose wall of bombastic rhetoric.


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## ascott (Apr 4, 2012)

Student, your intent is good here. There will be no outcome here that will resolve cruelty against reptiles. 

It is all too common for humans to disregard. It is all too common for the human species to believe we have a greater right than all things we can easily disregard. It is sadly too common for humans to think we as a species are so much more important and superior than every other living creature that grace this earth. Humans are the only species that kill and torture our own, simply for the fun and thrill of it.

So, while there are a lot of horrid people that are part of the human species, there are also some that do wonderful actions to try to balance that horrible nature of the human species.

I believe this is yet another example of the good and not so good in the human species....there will be folks that do what is responsible and right as a human to do and then there will be those that go out and take ownership of another living creature and when "done" or "bored" with it, they disregard it...and simply go out and acquire "a new one".

Student, you go right ahead and start all the polls you can come up with...you go ahead and spark conversation for the sake of conversation...sometimes the spark is what is needed to get awareness out in the world. When someone wants to not be called to the carpet on an issue they will attempt to thwart your spark by making negative, sarcastic, idiotic statements and then attempt to disregard you. 

Don't be disregarded my friend....we are all responsible for the bad that is created at the hands of our species even if not personally by our own hands...and as long as folks still find that some things are offensive and make your stomach turn...then there is still hope that change can come about....


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## StudentoftheReptile (Apr 5, 2012)

Thanks for the response, Angela.

I know creating polls on forums, and sharing emotion-pricking images on Facebook, etc., do very little to bring about the changes I'm referring to. My general intent here (as well as anywhere else herp-related, including my blog, other herp forums, etc) is to get people thinking...or "RE-thinking" to be more precise. Whether it's advances in proper husbandry, or educating the public, or just getting a person to realize that snakes aren't "evil" is my goal.

If I see something wrong with the system, I am going to point it out. That's why this thread exists. Again, I'm mostly preaching to the choir here, but at the same time, it was "Is there really nothing else that can be done here?" kinda thing. Everyone who reads the thread can take it as they will, and I'm fine with that.


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## acrantophis (Apr 24, 2012)

Unfortunately who you sell to as a breeder is sometimes a difficult topic. In the 80's and 90's, iguanas were a popular and "cheap" pet. And as a result I began an iguana rescue. Years later I began a large scale poison dart frog breeding facility. I was extreme picky as to who I sold to, but I'm sure many met an untimely death. The same goes for a large colony of bearded dragons and uromastyx. Selectively breeding for color allowed me to raise my prices and keep the novices away. In the pet industry cheap animals rarely are placed in suitable enclosures. A proper iguana enclosure should be exponentially more expensive than said animal. Sadly I took in so many iguanas with all stages of metabolic bone diseases. 
I couldn't see any more animals go to unfit homes. I have retired completely from any breeding. It's not worth the stress. I love my animals and their progeny too much to send them to their potential doom. 
Asking the government to get involved is a bad idea. They are the people responsible for the 4" turtle law! And they completely banned the sale of any turtle or tortoise in new jersey. They are uninformed. The government makes broad sweeping laws without any thought or information. Because of the pythons in the Everglades you cannot transport any large constrictors over any state line! So I can't sell a python to someone in Oregon?! As if a population of pythons will somehow learn to hibernate? I prefer to keep the government out of the loop!


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## Yvonne G (Apr 24, 2012)

The majority of people who contact me looking to adopt a tortoise are looking for "one of those that get really big." And just looking at the questions here on the forum asked by sulcata newbies...why isn't my sulcata growing bigger?...how big will he get?...how long does it take for him to get big?...makes you realize that a very large tortoise is somewhat of a status symbol to some people. Just like those weird snake people who want a giant snake. Its something they really really want, but have absolutely no clue what it means to have it once it gets too big to handle, or so big it tears up the yard. There's just no way you are going to reach these people. They have to find out for themselves.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Apr 24, 2012)

acrantophis said:


> Because of the pythons in the Everglades you cannot transport any large constrictors over any state line! So I can't sell a python to someone in Oregon?! As if a population of pythons will somehow learn to hibernate? I prefer to keep the government out of the loop!



This is not entirely accurate. The only species prohibited for interstate travel are Burmese pythons, African rock pythons (both northern & southern) and yellow anacondas. The interstate travel (whether it be shipping, or simply driving in your own car, or even carrying the snake in a bag while walking) is still perfectly legal for reticulated pythons, ball pythons, blood pythons, carpets, red-tail boas, green anacondas, etc...anything besides those 4 species I first mentioned. I can elaborate if you want in a PM but just wanted to clarify the misconception that "any large constrictor" was illegal to transport.
-------------
Thanks for responding, though! You are correct; Any govt interference in reality is not a good idea.


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## yagyujubei (Apr 24, 2012)

NO MORE REGULATIONS!!!!EVER!!!!FOR ANYTHING!!!!


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## caknarr13 (Apr 24, 2012)

I am a seventh grade science teacher and I have my sulcata's as classroom pets. I have been educating my student on responsible pet ownership. I believe that we all have to make a difference in our own way. I think it is great to discuss regulation but a grassroots effort is what we need. Show your animals whenever you can and explain to all that will listen. All children are interested in these beautiful animals. To teach the children today will change the world tomorrow. At best we can have kids correct the adults. It works with anti smoking it could work with this issue. At worse we will have educate adults in ten years. It isn't an instant solution but it's better than the governmental infringement brought on by regulation.
By the way my students can tell you what causes pyramiding and other issue with sulcata's because they really love these animals big and small. I have even had one student correct her uncle on the diet he was feeding a large sulcata he picked up a a flea market.


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## JacksonR (Apr 24, 2012)

emysemys said:


> The majority of people who contact me looking to adopt a tortoise are looking for "one of those that get really big." And just looking at the questions here on the forum asked by sulcata newbies...why isn't my sulcata growing bigger?...how big will he get?...how long does it take for him to get big?...makes you realize that a very large tortoise is somewhat of a status symbol to some people. Just like those weird snake people who want a giant snake. Its something they really really want, but have absolutely no clue what it means to have it once it gets too big to handle, or so big it tears up the yard. There's just no way you are going to reach these people. They have to find out for themselves.



Speaking of which....I'm getting a King Cobra some day!


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## Kristina (Apr 25, 2012)

The government already has too much control over my daily life, and a law like this would only open the door to all kinds of new rules and regulations that have absolutely nothing to do with the constitution of the United States and only infringe further on my rights and freedoms.

In theory, it is a good idea. Unfortunately, it would never work the way we want to involve the government. I wish more people would educate themselves, I really do. Really the only thing that anyone concerned over the state of things as far as Sulcata overpopulation can do is do their best to educate others on their needs and requirements.


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## LeaderLeprechaun (May 2, 2012)

caknarr13 said:


> I am a seventh grade science teacher and I have my sulcata's as classroom pets. I have been educating my student on responsible pet ownership. I believe that we all have to make a difference in our own way. I think it is great to discuss regulation but a grassroots effort is what we need. Show your animals whenever you can and explain to all that will listen. All children are interested in these beautiful animals. To teach the children today will change the world tomorrow. At best we can have kids correct the adults. It works with anti smoking it could work with this issue. At worse we will have educate adults in ten years. It isn't an instant solution but it's better than the governmental infringement brought on by regulation.
> By the way my students can tell you what causes pyramiding and other issue with sulcata's because they really love these animals big and small. I have even had one student correct her uncle on the diet he was feeding a large sulcata he picked up a a flea market.



I agree this is a good start and a good idea. However, for the most part I dont see 7th graders nationwide learning about how to take care of animals, which in my opinion is sad. I dont really see the government or school boards including this kind of topic into the yearly curriculum either. However, some sort of school function like they used to have in my old elementary school would be nice. They brought in animals, healthy and hurt, to educate the students about the importance of animal and their care. This in my opinion would also be a good start. 

I don't believe there should be a regulation except for the amount of babies produced by breeders. I understand the "accident" but in the long run a prevention of babies being produced would be good.


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## bfmorris (May 2, 2012)

LeaderLeprechaun said:


> I don't believe there should be a regulation except for the amount of babies produced by breeders. I understand the "accident" but in the long run a prevention of babies being produced would be good.



A gubmint regulation to control tortoises breeding? LOL!!
I'll go for that, only the earliest most established breeders should be allowed to produce. 

While we're at it, we can require licenses for people to reproduce--If a potential parent is on welfare, or illegal drugs, or is a convicted felon, regulate their gonads.


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