# Tortoise blindness??



## Tony the tank (Oct 20, 2011)

I have read a few posts here referring to certain light causing permanent blindness.. I have researched some on the Internet and all I come up with is Photokeratitis...( which is the same as welders flash burn)... And treatment is simple and 100% reversible within a few days....

I cannot find anything that's says any UVB light source can cause permanent blindness... What I did find is that the Retina is not effected by uv rays thus is not effected by Photokeratitis..

Does anyone know this to be fact??


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## Yvonne G (Oct 20, 2011)

Yes, it has been likened to snow blindness, and I'd guess that would be like welder's eye burn. And yes, it is completely reversible if you realize right away that its the light that's causing your tortoise to be sick. Trouble is, its the new keepers who buy those lights and they don't realize why their baby is lethargic and they keep the light on until the baby is too sick to save.


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## Tony the tank (Oct 20, 2011)

Ok..thats what I thought.. But I swear I read somewhere here that it was permanent blindness...

But I have to tell you from experience Photokeratitis is painful..even when treated..I can only imagine how painful it would be left untreated..


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## Yvonne G (Oct 20, 2011)

You're probably referring to the thread where Maggie told about the three baby sulcatas that were blinded by the light. She didn't realize it was the light causing the problem and kept it on them for too long. One died, one's corneas were burned and ended up being blind in one eye and the other was adopted out, so we don't know how it turned out. (I'm old and senile, so don't get mad at me if the facts are a bit wrong.)


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## Tony the tank (Oct 20, 2011)

It wasn't just Maggie..She took the time to explain to me same as you... but I thought I read that the spiral bulbs cause permanent blindness...

Regardless.. Just wanted to ease my own mind about the blindness thing... I just want to be up to date on anything that can cause serious injury... 

Thanks again..


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## fbsmith3 (Oct 20, 2011)

If you want to ease your mind, send an email to Zoomed, Exo Terra (hagan), or Zilla. They will describe to you how their CFL UVB bulbs are safe and others on the forum say thier dangerous. 

Only one of them want your money.


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## Tony the tank (Oct 20, 2011)

Photokeratitis is caused by UVC.. It not only effects tortoises but people... And based on culpability... I would bet that those issue would have been addressed when it was first discovered.... 

I know t- Rex as well as megaray also had issues with there MVB causing Photokeratitis...bare in mind that none of the companies mentioned above actually make the bulbs... They farm it out and have it boxed with there brand name...(t Rex and megaray used the same Canadian company) So if the bulb glass manufacture actually messes up.. It can effect quite a few companies... But the way the individual companies deal with he problem determines the extent of there culpability....


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## Laura (Oct 20, 2011)

with our now 10000 members. maybe our voice would be heard and get the companys to stop making them, or change them or?? or put warnings at least!


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## Tony the tank (Oct 21, 2011)

Laura..I would find it hard to believe that this issue hasn't already been addressed...from what i have read all high intensity lighting has the ability to produce UVC... But uvc is very dangerous not only to tortoises but to us as well...So bulb manufactures use special coatings or special glass to block it.....

All the incidents I have read about were not flaws in the design but flaws in manufacturing and were addressed...

Since the asbestos fiasco and all the lawsuits that branched off ... Most companies address issues that can cause serious injury..I say most because some companies still use bean counters and for some very big companies it more economical to pay the plaintiff than recall the product...but either way they are responsible to address the issue and fix it...

Remember this didn't just happen with the CFB there was a recall with MVB also ..T Rex and megaray put thousand of bad bulbs on the street without knowing... But both companies addressed the issue right away..


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## ascott (Oct 21, 2011)

Things like these errors are why IMHO I would suggest only a few hours a day of the high powered MVB be given to hatchlings and the very young delicate babies....if MVB are part of the enclosure I believe they should be along with low intensity UVB tube lights and a hot basking light and used in rotation for babies ...I believewould that would decrease the eye damage to babies....the few hours the MVB is on of course the heat and low grade UVB lights would be off...then switch off the MVB and switch on the heat basking bulb and low grade UVB tube light...then a night time heat source on for the evening when all daytime lights are off...IMHO....

The spiral bulbs have a tendency to have intense high concentrations of Uv rays that will suddenly drop in intensity...they have just not proven as steady and reliable in output as some of the traditional bulbs...this you too can find in research in the internet


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## Tony the tank (Oct 21, 2011)

That's funny you mention that Ascott..I was on the phone today with zoomed and Bob from reptile UV.... We were discussing the bulbs I purchased and we got on the subject of over radiation...especially when the UVB bulbs are used as a heat source..(he quoted some papers written on the subject)....He always recommends a seperate basking area either a CHE or a heat bulb..stated most reptiles need only a few hours of UVB and they self regulate moving into shade , uv index change ( bulbs uv index never fluctuates)and so forth but without a seperate heat source they tend to over radiate which could cause eye damage..

He also went on to say that most bulbs need to burn in for a few hrs before placing in the enclosure...As they usually put out way more UVB than listed for the first few hrs of operation and depending on the bulb could cause eye damage..

Some may say..Bob is just tooting his own horn..But I was able to confirm most of what he said.. On the UV guide website..

Hope this helps..someone


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## ascott (Oct 21, 2011)

Good to hear that I am not crazy LOL.....well not about the lights anyway....

I do get sad when I have come across a tortoise with poor eyesight....it truly does make such a huge difference in their apparent zest for exploring and mucking about....


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## Madkins007 (Oct 21, 2011)

To make matters even more interesting, this study (http://www.megaray.co.uk/downloads/artificial-ultraviolet-exposure-chameleon.pdf ) found that the best lighting for the best reproduction in captive Panther chameleons was low-level straight UVB tubes- better than the more 'focused' lights, like coiled or MVBs.

This makes sense. In captivity, we separate out heat, light, and UVB/vit. D to a degree not found in nature where ALL light contains some warmth and UV. Animals self-regulate heat and UV at the same time, and probably sense both in about the same way. 

When we set up a situation where there is plenty of light, but the UVB is centered in the hottest areas, or more so in THIS lit area than THIS one, we may be setting our animals up in a way that their natural instincts are not helping them properly.


(And Tony the Tank is right, the problem with a certain brand of coiled UVB bulb was a coating issue, not a design flaw. There is nothing inherently wrong with the design of the coiled tubes when used correctly.)


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## ascott (Oct 21, 2011)

...also Mark, when the coil uv bulbs initially were made they were designed for exposure to surface distance of at least 3-4 feet which is not normally practical for some of our smaller enclosures which have more like 12 inches for exposure to surface distance....also...it is a fantastic thing to encourage folks to really research the multitude of bulbs and devices to make sure to use what is best for ones personal needs based on their species and housing set up needs....then sharing the information enables others to be exposed to other set up options....I know we all agree all of our turtle/tortoise require heat/uva/uvb but using which ones when is of utmost importance....


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## Tony the tank (Oct 21, 2011)

I have the megaray 275watt zoo bulbs.. At a distance of 40" (I get a UVB reading higher than the fla sunshine at noon)And hardly no heat..maybe a 10-15*f degree rise... Yet they all seem to spend more time under the light than they use to when I was just using heat bulbs at 24".. I wouldn't think it's thermal regulating as the temp in the enclosure stay pretty steady at 87*-90*F at floor level...(anything 90 or above they tend to sleep the day away in there hides)

I have also noticed quite a difference in activity level on all the torts but the smaller female I adopted a while back..which had somewhat of a spongy shell (she is doing great now)spends all her time under the light just leaving long enough to eat...

Just to test the theory I'm going to pick up a few 100 watt CHE and place them in the enclosure 24" above the substrate and away from the UVB bulbs....I want to see if given the option ..heat no UVB or UVB no heat will they regulate back and forth..

Unless someone here has already seen this while using a UVB bulb and a CHE..Anyone?


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## Maggie Cummings (Oct 21, 2011)

This is what happened to my hatchling...

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/compactlamps.htm

I hope this leads to an understanding...hope it helps.


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## fbsmith3 (Oct 21, 2011)

I got an email back from Hagen about CFL UVB lights, full of lies. I will never do business with Hagen. I usually tried to not buy their products unless it was a brush, thermometer or another simple item. Now I will never buy anything from Hagen ever!

Sharon Emond (Hagen Customer Service Rep) 10/21/2011
Dear F,

All prior problems have been speculative. It is best if CFL's are used when distance and hide areas can be controlled. Exo Terra has taken the stance of providing normal amounts of UVB so as to not negatively impact the reptiles. There have been other manufacturers over the years who have had issues with excess UVB, but there are no known issues with our product.

Thank you,
Sharon Emond
Customer Service Dept.
Rolf C. Hagen (USA) Corp.


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## Maggie Cummings (Oct 21, 2011)

speculative? I wonder if she could tell that to the blind tortoise I had???


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## fbsmith3 (Oct 21, 2011)

Yes, the use of the word speculative really aggravated me. I actually wrote a response email, but after my wife explained that I sounded like a nutjob, I deleted it and will wait a few days to get my level headed words in order. 

What I could save from my rant to Hagen about the response. The rest was removed because I was so angry and not level headed.

_________________________________
Dear Ms. Emond,

The use of the word "speculative" should be reconsidered. I have done some extensive research on the subject and have discussed the matter with people who have first hand experience with animals blinded by Compact Florescent spiral UVB light use. 

This has demonstrated an utter lack of knowledge by your company and I will no longer do any business with Hagen ever again.


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## Madkins007 (Oct 21, 2011)

maggie3fan said:


> This is what happened to my hatchling...
> 
> http://www.uvguide.co.uk/compactlamps.htm
> 
> I hope this leads to an understanding...hope it helps.



Maybe it is just my computer, but the link leads to a closed page that says it would be updated about a year ago (the site does not seem to have updated much lately). I tried to find another good link to the info, but have not found one yet.


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## Tony the tank (Oct 21, 2011)

Madkin..I get the same message on that link also....I'm also surprised the site is still up..since it seems like hasn't been updated in a while..

But the site does have some very good info..


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## wosman (Apr 15, 2012)

I'm curious as to which specific brands or types of lights are doing this. I'm not very familiar with the jargon myself. However, my russian tortoise enclosure has this bulb producing UVB light:

http://reptilerapture.startlogic.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/curlyorange.jpg

If anyone could let me know how safe/unsafe it is that would be much appreciated.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Apr 15, 2012)

Laura said:


> with our now 10000 members. maybe our voice would be heard and get the companys to stop making them, or change them or?? or put warnings at least!


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## Atra42o (Jul 16, 2012)

wosman said:


> I'm curious as to which specific brands or types of lights are doing this. I'm not very familiar with the jargon myself. However, my russian tortoise enclosure has this bulb producing UVB light:
> 
> http://reptilerapture.startlogic.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/curlyorange.jpg
> 
> If anyone could let me know how safe/unsafe it is that would be much appreciated.



Has anyone responded to u? I noticed this is back in April. Alot of the info I come across says what not to use, but never says which brands and types to use. I've been researching this since Saturday when I bought the Exo terra Repti Glo 5.0 UVB 26 watt


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