# So... Just went to a reptile show...



## Ramsey (Jul 9, 2017)

First off, I certainly don't want this to come off like I'm calling anybody out, specially good people, hard working herps who are doing their best to care for reptiles to the best of their abilities.

However, that being said, I am very surprised with everything we just saw. Although the majority of the animals were snakes which I know nothing about, every time we saw a tortoise it was kept very dry, very "open" and very cold (compared to the 82F I target).

I talked to every one of these tortoise vendors and not one of them suggested raising with humidity, over half were on pellets substrate, most were pyrimided (even hatchlings) and I don't recall seeing a single water dish in any enclosure.

I went with the family to have a good time and to learn more. I was surprised to see such a dichotomy between the recommendations of husbandry from this site compared to what the vendors suggested.


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## Tom (Jul 9, 2017)

Welcome to my world...

I was one of "them" for decades, until I figured out why I, and they, were continually failing. For two decades no one could explain why all my tortoises pyramided despite multiple attempts at following all the best advice of the day, reading every sulcata and leopard book, consulting with vets, attending lectures and seminars, talking to every breeder and "expert" I could find, etc... When large percentages of hatchlings would die off weeks or months after hatching, I'd hear phrases like, "Well… some of them just aren't meant to survive…" What a crock of sh…. STUFF!

Babies were dying, pyramiding and growing abnormally slow because they were being kept too dry. Those enclosures could make some really nice beef jerky, but they certainly weren't/aren't good for baby tortoises. These things weren't happening because of too much protein, not enough calcium, not enough sunshine, too much grocery store food, or any of the other things it has been blamed on after all these years. These things are/were happening because the little hatchlings are dehydrated and their kidneys are being damaged by unnaturally dry and desiccating captive conditions.

Its funny when they argue with me… I kept tortoises their way from 1986 to 2007. I started keeping them _*MY*_ way in 2008. I had input from the Fife brothers, Carl May, Terry Kilgore, Neal, Dean S, and several others to develop the style that I developed. When I started, I was assured that my tortoises would get respiratory infections, shell rot, and probably die. Instead, the opposite happened. Then other people tried it and got the same excellent results. Soon dozens and then hundreds of people all over the world tried it, all with the same excellent result. Now, thousands are doing it. I was just informed by some friends that I am famous in China for pioneering and publicizing these methods. Over here I'm attacked, insulted, berated, disliked, detested, and shunned by the old timers that make up "the establishment", but none of the people arguing have ever tried it my way. I did it their way and I know what the result will be, but they are arguing from a place of complete ignorance, because they have never tried it my way, and they have no idea the success they could be enjoying.

What is funny/ironic/amusing is that after three years of major success, I met a man named Tomas Diagne from Senegal Africa. He's been studying wild sulcatas since he was a boy, and is responsible for saving the species from extinction in his country. He filled in a lot of blanks for me... Now I knew my methods worked, but a common complaint was that my methods were "unnatural" since sulcatas come from a dry, arid region of the world. All the books mention the 8 or 9 month annual "dry" season. Well guess what the important detail they all left out was… Wanna guess what happens for the 3-4 months that aren't the "dry" season? Tropical monsoons. The conditions there are like South Florida in summer. Hot, rainy, wet, humid. Puddles and marshes form, and the tortoise go in them. Wanna guess when babies hatch? Right at the start of this monsoonal tropical rainy season. People used to ask me with a very confrontational tone: "Who soaks them every day in the wild???" For those first three years, I really didn't have a good answer. I just knew that what I was doing was working, and what "they" all recommended didn't work. Tomas explained to me that mother nature was soaking them every day with rain, puddles and seasonal marshes. Tomas explained that if you are not there in the first week or two of the rainy season, you won't see any babies because the ground cover is so thick that 10 men with machetes can't get through it. I can't tell you the sense of irony I feel knowing that my so-called "unnatural" methods, are actually the closest thing to what they actually experience in the wild that we can offer in captivity. As it turns out: Dry substrate, low humidity and a profound lack of water is about as unnatural as it can get.

I try every day to share my results and explain what I've learned after three decades of doing this. Some people are open minded and want to learn new and better ways, and other people simply close their minds to it, and stick to the only thing they've known for years. What should a new tortoise keeper do? I say look at the results obtained by the methods being recommended. I've shown my result here repeatedly. My detractors of yesteryear were asked to put up or shut up. Well, they didn't put up any results for comparison, and I don't hear them arguing anymore, so what does that tell you?

For a fun history lesson:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding.15137/


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## wellington (Jul 9, 2017)

Just don't fall for what you see. They are either stuck on their ego to admit they don't know it all or just idiots. Yep, I will call them out and as I see it. I found the same thing the first time I went. I told everyone of them what they were doing wrong and that they should join tfo to learn the new info. Most only care about the cheapest way to raise them so they can make more on the sale!


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## tortoise5643 (Jul 9, 2017)

Tom said:


> Welcome to my world...
> 
> I was one of "them" for decades, until I figured out why I, and they, were continually failing. For two decades no one could explain why all my tortoises pyramided despite multiple attempts at following all the best advice of the day, reading every sulcata and leopard book, consulting with vets, attending lectures and seminars, talking to every breeder and "expert" I could find, etc... When large percentages of hatchlings would die off weeks or months after hatching, I'd hear phrases like, "Well… some of them just aren't meant to survive…" What a crock of sh…. STUFF!
> 
> ...


I can't imagine how many times Tom has written this. 

I have also noticed that some people who do use the proper methods to raise them keep them drier during the shows because it is hard to create a closed chamber and keep it warm and humid at the show so they keep it dry and cool to avoid RI even though they know better.


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## leigti (Jul 9, 2017)

I have only been to one reptile show. So I am going on very limited experience here. But I did notice the same thing about the tortoises. There were only three tortoise vendors there, and only one was giving out correct information. 
I don't know anything about the other animals that were there, lizard's, salamanders, snakes, geckos etc. they did have a couple turtles. But I kind of wondered if they were even showing the right way to keep all those other animals considering how bad they were at tortoises. And they had two booths selling hedgehogs, it's been along time since my zoology class but I'm pretty sure hedgehogs are not reptiles


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## Ramsey (Jul 9, 2017)

Yes. All shared emotions here. Again, not trying to call anyone out per se, but at the absolute least, I expect many of the things won't survive long because of temperature alone.

The misses made it a point to stop at every tortoise vendor and we held many of them. None were warm, all were kept at basic room temps with a blasting AC in the expo. 

I get that the vendors have limited abilities with keeping habitats and enclosures, but I would never let any of my torts stay in those conditions, even for a day or two. I made it clear to the misses that we won't be taking any home.


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## Mende (Jul 9, 2017)

I also went to the reptile show. It was my first one. I spoke with the venders selling tortoises, including the one selling three radiated hatchlings about keeping them warm and humid in a closed chamber like Tom has taught us. I was met with blank faces like I was doing it all wrong. Maybe those guys just sell the torts for somebody who knows what they're doing. Those radiated hatchlings were amazing. But for $1100 apiece I'll see how successful I am with SA Leopards first. Cheers


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## Tom (Jul 9, 2017)

tortoise5643 said:


> I have also noticed that some people who do use the proper methods to raise them keep them drier during the shows because it is hard to create a closed chamber and keep it warm and humid at the show so they keep it dry and cool to avoid RI even though they know better.



This is a very good point. I agree.

Conversation would be needed to reveal whether a person's hatchling had been reared properly, regardless of what they are temporarily housed in at the show.

I just did a four hour reptile "Meet and Greet" thing at my local Petco yesterday and I brought some of my sulcata hatchlings just to show the size difference between their father and them. These hatchlings are still in the brooder box stage, so I housed them in an open topped shoe box with a couple of large broadleaf plantain leaves for substrate and no water bowl. They got a warm soak and proper housing before and after the show, but people at the show didn't see all of that.


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## Alaskamike (Jul 17, 2017)

It is great that @Tom continues to take the time to write detailed explanations of how he discovered, used and found success with the humid methods raising baby Sulcata. And he's not alone. 

The frustration felt when carefully explaining why this works is an oft repeated experience. What makes Toms account so much more compelling ( more than when I try & explain it) is his prior experience & failure when following all the best " expert" advice. 

Having rescued a number of Sulcata over many years I still came to the humidity understanding slowly. Diet, exersize , sunlight , proper heat & providing a water bowl they could climb into is as far as I got till joining tortoise forum. 

It was here in a discussion with Tom that I finally got the final puzzle piece - humidity. And boy did I feel stupid & a bit guilty I didn't discover it sooner. 

Having been to Africa several times in different seasons over the years I've seen both drought & monsoon seasons. Not only that - the babies stay deep in burrows almost all the time, coming out only to eat and roam in camouflaging grasses. If they didn't , not a one would survive the voracious preditors. Everything is hungry in Africa. You'd think I would've thought of that. 

A generation from now , providing the proper heat , UV, exersize space , foods, and yes - water & humidity will be the norm. Till then , I want to thank Tom & every one of you out there who speak up at every opportunity to at least plant the seeds in keepers minds. 

This is how it will change - is changing. 
One day Tom will write a book. And I ll beg for a signed copy .....
Knowing that by the time it's published , we will know even more. 

Lol. 

Keep up the good fight


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## Loohan (Jul 18, 2017)

It's not all that esoteric that hatchlings need moisture. I think if one looks around other sites online, one will run into this recommendation.
When i got my little 3-toe Rorg 3 years ago, i went online to research care. I thought he was an EBT, and that boxies were torts. This was months before i found TFO. Nonetheless, i read somewhere the useful info that baby torts need fairly constant moisture as they dry out easily.
So i loaded up a spray bottle and would often spray him down. If i let him walk around on the gravel in the sun, he was kept dripping wet.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 2, 2017)

Yeah I went too, to this exact show. Naming names, cause I'm like that. 

Pet Kingdom enjoys a reputation on how they do their animals, but it's not how they do them in their store and it's not how they will show them. There is a keeper there that knows what to do, but has a struggle to thwart on the old conventional wisdom. 

SoCal Reptile, they do know better and do better, but the show they are not trying to teach husbandry by example, but I don't think you'll get bad or 'old school' advice.

LLL Reptile, yeah, no need to go there, one way or the other. It's a dry goods internet petshop that wanted a brick and mortar place(s), and they could do much better with all they sell that is alive.

Tortoise Supply was conspicuously absent, and there you will get a good direction. Tyler will differentiate how he shows animals versus how he cares for them.

Sunland Breeders also conspicuously absent, They also have a way to differentiate how they show with how they have setup at home. They have a picture album of their home set-ups to do a show and tell. 

All other, for the most part have a few tortoises on the table 'bred by a friend' or from that backyard apit of whatever that lays eggs and so why not sell the offspring.

If you go to the Pomona show by the same show producers there will be a few more dedicated breeders to look at...

TooSlo Reptiles will have several species that are so good looking it's like wild caught without shell chips.

Black pearl is about Indigos and tortoises, The snake guys defer questions to the tortoise guys, and they know well the husbandry.

There are others at both venues in Southern California, and other venues as well. It is about the buyer and seller 'get along'. It's gets to be a mad house of people too, which makes it difficult to chat someone up much.


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## Ramsey (Aug 4, 2017)

Hi Will,


Can you please elaborate a bit on the following points? I'm trying to understand what you are saying but I'm having a hard time following.

Thanks


Will said:


> ....
> 
> Pet Kingdom enjoys a reputation on how they do their animals, but it's not how they do them in their store and it's not how they will show them. There is a keeper there that knows what to do, but has a struggle to thwart on the old conventional wisdom.
> 
> ...


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 7, 2017)

Ramsey said:


> Hi Will,
> 
> 
> Can you please elaborate a bit on the following points? I'm trying to understand what you are saying but I'm having a hard time following.
> ...


The tortoise wisdom of one of the owners is not top shelf, at all. One of the keepers/workers there does have a better knowledge, and implements as best they can.

Ramsey, come out of the closet, are you that keeper by another name?


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## Ramsey (Aug 19, 2017)

Will said:


> The tortoise wisdom of one of the owners is not top shelf, at all. One of the keepers/workers there does have a better knowledge, and implements as best they can.
> 
> Ramsey, come out of the closet, are you that keeper by another name?



Ha. I've come out of the closet long ago 
Not hiding behind any shrouds here, Ramsey is my birth name and I don't work for any pet stores. Just sincerely had a hard time understanding your message. Thanks for the clarification.

What saddens me about Pet Kingdom is they keep their torts dry, leave them flipped over (there are signs posted justifying this) and have ants all over their enclosures and animals.

I would be willing to volunteer a weekend to helping them get up to better standards if willing.


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## Reptilian Feline (Aug 20, 2017)

In Sweden we have laws on keeping pets, but those laws are different when selling or temporarily displaying them at an expo or "show and tell". That's why I picked up a leo that wasn't OK... the display followed the standard here. When we display our Giant African land snails, we mist them to keep them active. You can't sell a snail that won't come out of its shell. We also talk a lot; part of our "work" as hobbyists is to educate and inform. They might not buy from us, but they will know more if they buy from some else or make the desition that the pet doesn't fit them.

On show is one thing... it's the conversation that lets you know if the seller is OK or not.


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## kuhlman187 (Sep 20, 2017)

Recently visited a reptile show in our area. Fun place to bring my 3 boys, my middle one loves "critters" of all kinds. Before he was born we bought a sulcatta at the same "Repticon" years prior. We received what i now understand as really bad information. I did notice this year there were some vendors who had there's in a clearly humidified enclosure. I tried scouring the web for info. when we bought ours and everything i read was "this tortoise is from the desert" etc.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Sep 20, 2017)

kuhlman187 said:


> Recently visited a reptile show in our area. Fun place to bring my 3 boys, my middle one loves "critters" of all kinds. Before he was born we bought a sulcatta at the same "Repticon" years prior. We received what i now understand as really bad information. I did notice this year there were some vendors who had there's in a clearly humidified enclosure. I tried scouring the web for info. when we bought ours and everything i read was "this tortoise is from the desert" etc.


Don't you love miss- information!


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## Loohan (Sep 20, 2017)

Loohan said:


> It's not all that esoteric that hatchlings need moisture. I think if one looks around other sites online, one will run into this recommendation.
> When i got my little 3-toe Rorg 3 years ago, i went online to research care. I thought he was an EBT, and that boxies were torts. This was months before i found TFO. Nonetheless, i read somewhere the useful info that baby torts need fairly constant moisture as they dry out easily.
> So i loaded up a spray bottle and would often spray him down. If i let him walk around on the gravel in the sun, he was kept dripping wet.



I was probably mistaken when i wrote this. I was probably reading about box turtles, not torts (although back then i thought boxies were torts).


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