# Curiosity kills the cat?



## Yvonne G (Sep 21, 2017)

Here's something I've been curious about for some time now. Some humans are born homosexual or intersex. Do you think some animals are born that way too?

My friend Carol and her husband kept a herd of appaloosa horses - a bunch of mares and a stallion. They were all in the pasture together. There was one mare in the herd that acted stallion-like, mounting the other mares, etc. And the stallion always chased her and tried to fight with her, and he never bred her. It would have been interesting to do a necropsy and see her interior workings.

I've always wondered if this could be true with tortoises, and maybe a reason why there were never eggs or fertile eggs. 

Anyone want to discuss?


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## Tidgy's Dad (Sep 21, 2017)

Yes, studies have been done and animals of many different species show this behaviour among some individuals. I read a very interesting book on the subject a few years back. 
Virtually every species that has been studied, shows homosexual behaviour, from higher mammals to invertebrates.


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## wellington (Sep 21, 2017)

I have always wondered and figured it could be possible. Just never seen/read any proof of it. 
Interesting about your friends horse.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Sep 21, 2017)

With pictures.


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## mark1 (Sep 21, 2017)

some ***** dogs act very masculine , especially when in season , they'll mount other dogs , bitches or dogs .... males will mount other males , and just about anything else when their hormones are raging , like when they can smell a ***** in season is nearby , or they're 9-12 months and their testosterone is peaking , i'm thinking it's normal behavior for any animal , it has always appeared to me to be a dominance display ........ as far as not being sexually attracted to the opposite sex , and lacking the drive to reproduce , I've never seen it ..... such a trait would obviously have to be genetic , if it was a genetic trait it would be self limiting , and should disappear , if it were a genetic mutation , it would most likely be extremely rare , and wouldn't perpetuate itself .......... there are some animals that can normally change sex , or are hermaphroditic , those I would guess are survival adaptations.......... hormonal imbalances in animals sometimes causes them to take on the opposite sexes traits ,and alter their drive , the only ones of those I know of were caused from disease ........


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## Tidgy's Dad (Sep 21, 2017)

mark1 said:


> some ***** dogs act very masculine , especially when in season , they'll mount other dogs , bitches or dogs .... males will mount other males , and just about anything else when their hormones are raging , like when they can smell a ***** in season is nearby , or they're 9-12 months and their testosterone is peaking , i'm thinking it's normal behavior for any animal , it has always appeared to me to be a dominance display ........ as far as not being sexually attracted to the opposite sex , and lacking the drive to reproduce , I've never seen it ..... such a trait would obviously have to be genetic , if it was a genetic trait it would be self limiting , and should disappear , if it were a genetic mutation , it would most likely be extremely rare , and wouldn't perpetuate itself .......... there are some animals that can normally change sex , or are hermaphroditic , those I would guess are survival adaptations.......... hormonal imbalances in animals sometimes causes them to take on the opposite sexes traits ,and alter their drive , the only ones of those I know of were caused from disease ........


Simple genetics would seem to say it is self-limiting but there are thousands of recorded cases of animals exhibiting homosexual behaviour in different ways, at least sometimes. Genetics and the survival of seemingly useless genes is very complicated. But human homosexuality does seem to be different. 'True' homosexuality if you like seems only to occur in us and domestic sheep, as far as we yet know. But we are a different animal in many ways as are all other species which is the point. We are once again being anthropomorphic and looking for human traits in non-humans. 
http://www.iflscience.com/plants-an...scover-evolutionary-advantage-homosexual-sex/
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150206-are-there-any-homosexual-animals


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## MichaelaW (Sep 21, 2017)

Yvonne G said:


> Here's something I've been curious about for some time now. Some humans are born homosexual or intersex. Do you think some animals are born that way too?
> 
> My friend Carol and her husband kept a herd of appaloosa horses - a bunch of mares and a stallion. They were all in the pasture together. There was one mare in the herd that acted stallion-like, mounting the other mares, etc. And the stallion always chased her and tried to fight with her, and he never bred her. It would have been interesting to do a necropsy and see her interior workings.
> 
> ...


I do know that high hormone levels produce stallion-like behavior in brood mares.


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## mark1 (Sep 21, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> . We are once again being anthropomorphic and looking for human traits in non-humans.



happy birthday tidgy's dad ! actually I more look at the animal traits in the human , than the human traits in the animal ......... I've found a lot of overlap


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## Tidgy's Dad (Sep 21, 2017)

mark1 said:


> happy birthday tidgy's dad ! actually I more look at the animal traits in the human , than the human traits in the animal ......... I've found a lot of overlap


Than you, Mark, it's a good day already. 
Life's good. 
Quite right, the reverse is more often the reality, we have come from them, not the other way round. And there is overlap, of course , ultimately, what we began with, they have.


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## mark1 (Sep 21, 2017)

I've seen lethal genetic traits in pups , that should eliminate themselves , but they persists ........


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## Tidgy's Dad (Sep 21, 2017)

mark1 said:


> I've seen lethal genetic traits in pups , that should eliminate themselves , but they persists ........


The thing is that genes overlap and link. Bits sort of carry on and we call this regression, though, actually, genetic variation is usually a bonus. The other 'thing' is that females dominate, XX and XY and all that. A lesbian group of individuals would still get massively 'raped ' by males in nature and the homosexual genes would be passed on to the male, as well as the female offspring via the X side. Well, not provable, but possible.


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## mark1 (Sep 22, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> The thing is that genes overlap and link. Bits sort of carry on and we call this regression, though, actually, genetic variation is usually a bonus. The other 'thing' is that females dominate, XX and XY and all that. A lesbian group of individuals would still get massively 'raped ' by males in nature and the homosexual genes would be passed on to the male, as well as the female offspring via the X side. Well, not provable, but possible.



I have to think this scenario is improbable in non-domestic animals , at least in any animal species i'm familiar with ...... breeding a non-receptive female is pretty dangerous to both animals , actually more so the male in dogs , it can and does lead to injuries , injuries in wild animals are often fatal in themselves , a practice nature itself would move away from ......... off the top of my head any deleterious or lethal traits I can think of are recessive , where double doses are required ...... and others i'm familiar with are developmental abnormalities ....... nature nurture can and does affect genetics , environmental conditions are believed to turn on/off genes ........


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## Tidgy's Dad (Sep 22, 2017)

mark1 said:


> I have to think this scenario is improbable in non-domestic animals , at least in any animal species i'm familiar with ...... breeding a non-receptive female is pretty dangerous to both animals , actually more so the male in dogs , it can and does lead to injuries , injuries in wild animals are often fatal in themselves , a practice nature itself would move away from ......... off the top of my head any deleterious or lethal traits I can think of are recessive , where double doses are required ...... and others i'm familiar with are developmental abnormalities ....... nature nurture can and does affect genetics , environmental conditions are believed to turn on/off genes ........


Agreed. 
But recessive genes can survive for thousands of generations, blue eyes in humans, for example, and homosexuality isn't necessarily 'deleterious' and certainly not a developmental abnormality.!


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## theguy67 (Sep 22, 2017)

Have they found a genetic link (in any species) to homosexual behavior? or are we just speculating if they did? <<< Just curious. About to go to class, so I don't have much time to search.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Sep 22, 2017)

Lots of studies again on this, after your class.
But here's just one http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/10/homosexuality-may-be-caused-chemical-modifications-dna


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 22, 2017)

Anything that is a non-surgery procedure of sexual identity in humans is also expressed somewhere in "nature". The fallacy with my statement is we are indeed in nature ourselves, albeit a highly modified nature. Some animals even change sex over the course of their life, however it is for reproductive survival, not an identity crisis. I also don't think there has ever been parthenogenesis in many groups of animals, but again that is a physiological mechanism, not a behavioral one. This is an extension of a conversation from a group of working biologists at my employers lunch room. It's an interesting conversation when metaphysics is not invoked as an explanation.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Sep 22, 2017)

Will said:


> Anything that is a non-surgery procedure of sexual identity in humans is also expressed somewhere in "nature". The fallacy with my statement is we are indeed in nature ourselves, albeit a highly modified nature. Some animals even change sex over the course of their life, however it is for reproductive survival, not an identity crisis. I also don't think there has ever been parthenogenesis in many groups of animals, but again that is a physiological mechanism, not a behavioral one. This is an extension of a conversation from a group of working biologists at my employers lunch room. It's an interesting conversation when metaphysics is not invoked as an explanation.


Oh, how your lunch hours must fly by


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 22, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Oh, how your lunch hours must fly by


Happy B-Day.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Sep 22, 2017)

Will said:


> Happy B-Day.


Ta.


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## theguy67 (Sep 22, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Lots of studies again on this, after your class.
> But here's just one http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/10/homosexuality-may-be-caused-chemical-modifications-dna


That's very interesting. It can be quite challenging talking to people about this subject, but from a scientific perspective, it is certainly interesting.


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## ZEROPILOT (Sep 22, 2017)

I also find this interesting and I recall watching a special on the subject some years ago and then getting in a scrape with a beloved friend that thinks that church can/should "cure" homosexuality....Like its a disease.
The whole issue can get hot very quickly!


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## ZEROPILOT (Sep 22, 2017)

Please, no hate replies!!
I'm just here because the words KILL and CAT were used in the post.


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## theguy67 (Sep 22, 2017)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Please, no hate replies!!
> I'm just here because the words KILL and CAT were used in the post.



What do you have against cats? lol

It is important to remain respectful, and not step on anyone's toes, but TTF is an educational site. So long as we keep to the biology side of things, I see no reason why we can't discuss this openly.

As far as the behavior..I think its important to look at what mark said, and maybe expand on it...



mark1 said:


> happy birthday tidgy's dad ! actually I more look at the animal traits in the human , than the human traits in the animal ......... I've found a lot of overlap



Its important to look at it as animals first, and then humans. Homosexual behavior in people may be defined differently than that of animals. Simply saying, what is considered inappropriate by societal standards, may very well be normal in nature - a male dog mounting another male for example. This may be a display of dominance, or an impulse. I don't really know if this speaks to any unusual behavior in the animal, unless it was exclusively males (which may be what we are talking about). In humans, any behavior with the same sex is often seen as in this category, so its going to be very difficult to compare us to animals when we have such a complex social system, which throws a few wrenches ( < had to avoid a bad pun) in to this problem.


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## mark1 (Sep 23, 2017)

I agree with everything you just said ........ think there are more than a few wrenches in comparing the behavior of humans to that of animals , added to the fact the only way to compare the behaviors is to base their motivation on our interpretation of what the animal is thinking ....when a ***** mounts a male , or another ***** , or a dog mounts a dog , oftentimes it appears to me to be a kneejerk reaction , hormones , excitement , they have no control over it ..... I've seen pretty much all the behaviors in my dogs that are being described as homosexual behavior in animals . I've honestly never viewed most any of them as sexual behavior , it looks to me for the most part to be uninhibited social behavior and hormone driven instincts ...... even the pups mounting stuff is not sexual , they haven't a clue what they're doing , hormones driven instincts . no one has a birds and a bees talk with the pups , they figure it out ........ we do share emotions with animals , but ours are vastly more complex ..... a mom dog will lick her pups to stimulate them to urinate and defecate , the behavior will continue long after the effect and purpose are of use , is the ***** a homosexual ? I've had some extremely dog aggressive dogs , dogs that would and did kill any dog they had the ability and opportunity to , were they murderers or serial killers ? we may as humans exist in nature , but I'm pretty sure if we had to live in nature , the population would take a huge hit .......... in my opinion , any genetic trait that goes against nature , *in nature* , is fighting a losing battle ....... as far as animals lacking the drive to reproduce , well they do exist , have always existed , hormones and drive are genetic , their lack of drive or ability to reproduce is in the best interest of their species .......


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## Tidgy's Dad (Sep 23, 2017)

Also a big question here is what is homosexual behaviour and what is homoerotic ?


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## Loohan (Sep 27, 2017)

I once had 3 female pet rats; a mother and 2 daughters. I kept them in an aquarium. One day i let the mother roam around the apt a bit. She was acting strangely, feeling hormones, and apparently sprayed a little.
I put her back in the aquarium, and one of the daughters sniffed her behind, then mounted and humped her.


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