# This deadly heat ?



## KarenSoCal (Jun 18, 2021)

I thought this is a good reminder of what to watch for! It works for humans too!

And don't forget...the smaller the dog, the more quickly they get ill from heat stroke. Those little bodies don't have lots of skin area to get rid of the heat.


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## wellington (Jun 18, 2021)

Last week I posted on our local Nextdoor forum a reminder about not leaving dogs out in the extreme heat. 
Thanks for posting this.


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## Tom (Jun 18, 2021)

Something I do for work because I haul animals all over the place is keep a thermometer or two in the car so you can really see how hot it is, or isn't. I recently had a complaint that we'd left a dog in the car on a cool day in the shade. High for that day was 71. I brought the person over and showed them the thermometer which read 73. On another day it was 88 and we had to park partially in the sun. I put the sun shade up in the windshield and left the car running with the AC going. This is common practice in my business, and we are usually sitting inside the car with the animals. I got a concerned complaint that day too. I walked the person over and showed them the thermometer at 66 degrees.

I now have a wireless wifi "Temp Stick" that sends readings to my phone. I stick the temp stick on the animals cage in the car and leave my mobile hot spot on and plugged in. Works great. I can check the temp from anywhere. I have it set to send me text alerts on my phone and email if the temp rises above my set point.

As a dog trainer, I'm a big proponent of taking dogs out in public for socialization. I like having my dogs with me. This thread was a welcome reminder for people to be VERY careful in the heat. Thank you @KarenSoCal


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## wellington (Jun 18, 2021)

Tom said:


> Something I do for work because I haul animals all over the place is keep a thermometer or two in the car so you can really see how hot it is, or isn't. I recently had a complaint that we'd left a dog in the car on a cool day in the shade. High for that day was 71. I brought the person over and showed them the thermometer which read 73. On another day it was 88 and we had to park partially in the sun. I put the sun shade up in the windshield and left the car running with the AC going. This is common practice in my business, and we are usually sitting inside the car with the animals. I got a concerned complaint that day too. I walked the person over and showed them the thermometer at 66 degrees.
> 
> I now have a wireless wifi "Temp Stick" that sends readings to my phone. I stick the temp stick on the animals cage in the car and leave my mobile hot spot on and plugged in. Works great. I can check the temp from anywhere. I have it set to send me text alerts on my phone and email if the temp rises above my set point.
> 
> As a dog trainer, I'm a big proponent of taking dogs out in public for socialization. I like having my dogs with me. This thread was a welcome reminder for people to be VERY careful in the heat. Thank you @KarenSoCal


Unfortunately most people won't do anything even close to what you do, to make sure they are safe. Your situation is a bit different and you should take extra precautions. 
I am not for taking dogs most places. I cringe when I see them at art shows, street fairs, swap meets, or in a store parking lot, etc. 
I would also question any dog being left in a car even with the car running. Many dogs and puppies have died from heat in a vehicle running with the air on. The car or AC failed and the dogs paid with their lives.


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## KarenSoCal (Jun 18, 2021)

wellington said:


> I am not for taking dogs most places. I cringe when I see them at art shows, street fairs, swap meets, or in a store parking lot, etc.


I'm really curious about this. Let's remove the weather as a factor.

Dogs are "companion" animals. They want to be with their human, and many of us, like Tom, enjoy taking them with us to an outing like you mentioned. And the dog usually loves it...the smells, new people to meet, possibly a chance to be with other dogs.

What makes you cringe? As long as the dog is socialized and behaves reasonably, why not take them?


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## wellington (Jun 18, 2021)

I have never seen a dog "happy" to be at a crowded any place I mentioned. They are usually dodging peoples feet, walking on hot pavement and not even being paid attention too. Those places are not for dogs. People bring them there for themselves not the dog 
There are better ways to socialize a dog. Family, friends, neighbors. 
Better places to bring your dog. Family, beach, forest preserves, walks, yard just to name a few. 
Not a store to sit in the car or be tied to a pole outside. Which btw, all the ones I have seen tied to a pole while owners shop, all are nervous and scared. Also not any of the places I already mentioned. Those are not happy dogs to me. Those are owners satisfying their own needs. 
Just walk a dog thru a crowded art show or swap meet. Then take that same dog and play with him in your yard or a park. The dog in the yard/park is a happy dog. You will see a big difference.


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## Turtulas-Len (Jun 18, 2021)

wellington said:


> I have never seen a dog "happy" to be at a crowded any place I mentioned. They are usually dodging peoples feet, walking on hot pavement and not even being paid attention too. Those places are not for dogs. People bring them there for themselves not the dog
> There are better ways to socialize a dog. Family, friends, neighbors.
> Better places to bring your dog. Family, beach, forest preserves, walks, yard just to name a few.
> Not a store to sit in the car or be tied to a pole outside. Which btw, all the ones I have seen tied to a pole while owners shop, all are nervous and scared. Also not any of the places I already mentioned. Those are not happy dogs to me. Those are owners satisfying their own needs.
> Just walk a dog thru a crowded art show or swap meet. Then take that same dog and play with him in your yard or a park. The dog in the yard/park is a happy dog. You will see a big difference.


I pretty much disagree with everything you've said except the left in the cars (unless it's done Tom's way) or tied to a post which I've never seen someone do I shop stores that allow dogs if any are going with me to shop. And there are many that do, Maybe it's a small town thing.


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## KarenSoCal (Jun 18, 2021)

wellington said:


> Just walk a dog thru a crowded art show or swap meet. Then take that same dog and play with him in your yard or a park. The dog in the yard/park is a happy dog. You will see a big difference.


You make some valid points, especially with the dodging people feet.

I think a large part of whether the dog is happy is dependent on whether he has been socialized to be in crowds prior to the event. I've had dogs who enjoyed a crowd. One of mine now would be terrified, since her previous owners did not socialize her.

I don't agree with you on all points, but that's OK! Thanks for giving your explanation.


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## Blackdog1714 (Jun 19, 2021)

I use my bare feet as check system. If it the ground is to hot for me to walk on then I won't walk my dog. As far as stores my Chow loves going to Home Depot and giving kisses! As far as cars go unless you preplan only ride with them. Tom is professional and it is amazing how the vehicles are really set up for the dogs!


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## wellington (Jun 19, 2021)

Blackdog1714 said:


> I use my bare feet as check system. If it the ground is to hot for me to walk on then I won't walk my dog. As far as stores my Chow loves going to Home Depot and giving kisses! As far as cars go unless you preplan only ride with them. Tom is professional and it is amazing how the vehicles are really set up for the dogs!


The dogs and puppies lost to heat in a vehicle I spoke of earlier were also professional. Professional dog handlers for show dogs. Their Van's were set up to purposely be able to leave dogs/puppies in the van while not being shown at the moment. The vehicle/AC failed. Stuff like this can happen to anyone. Anyone except those who never leaves a dog in a vehicle alone.


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## wellington (Jun 19, 2021)

KarenSoCal said:


> You make some valid points, especially with the dodging people feet.
> 
> I think a large part of whether the dog is happy is dependent on whether he has been socialized to be in crowds prior to the event. I've had dogs who enjoyed a crowd. One of mine now would be terrified, since her previous owners did not socialize her.
> 
> I don't agree with you on all points, but that's OK! Thanks for giving your explanation.


There are always going to be exceptions. I can only tell you what I have seen and what I feel. I have had many many dogs over the years. Bred, raised and showed some. Worked in mostly areas that involved dogs. I just don't see the point or the happy on the part of the dog in those situations. 
I agree though, we can disagree ?


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## Blackdog1714 (Jun 19, 2021)

My Chow is show stock and here breeder Karen Tracy of Liontamer/Pazzaz had a few dogs in Westminster. My Chow girl decided for me that there would be no showing her-23 minutes to full carsickness! I carry a full bag of cleanup supplies in all my cars. Also since my Newfie is so big at 165 pounds he does not car ride in summer unless the car is pre-cooled before he gets in. Over heating in big dogs comes on too quickly and is so deadly I take no chances with him. Wellington sir you will always have my respect even if we disagree, because I do not know it all and am willing to learn!


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## Tom (Jun 19, 2021)

wellington said:


> There are always going to be exceptions. I can only tell you what I have seen and what I feel. I have had many many dogs over the years. Bred, raised and showed some. Worked in mostly areas that involved dogs. I just don't see the point or the happy on the part of the dog in those situations.
> I agree though, we can disagree ?


This is a dilemma. There is no right or wrong here, just different opinions on a matter. I'd like to share an example not related to dogs, and then relate it back to our dog conversation.

There is a married couple who are master falconers and have been working with Harris' hawks for decades. They wrote a giant book where they shared their vast knowledge and personal experience with all things Harris' hawk called "The Harris's Hawk Revolution". We falconers affectionately refer to their book as "the Harris' hawk bible". One of the most interesting features in the book is the death chapter. They've compiled a list of all the ways HHs and other raptors have killed themselves or been killed over all of their years. They've got nearly one thousand cases in the book, and they've seen many more since its publication almost 10 years ago. Most of these deaths happen while out hunting. They get electrocuted on power poles, cut themselves in half on barbed wire fences, hit by cars, killed by other wild predators, killed by dogs, carbon monoxide poisoning in the back of pick up trucks, shot by morons, stepped on by cows, killed by stinging insects, the list is endless and surprising. All of this data is even broken down into percentages. The vast majority of these deaths could have been prevented if the falconer had left his/her trained raptor at home in the safety of its mew, and not taken it out hunting. The question always asked is: What kind of life is that? The nearly unanimous answer is a variation of: Its no life at all for a raptor.

Now to my point: Life is risky. There is risk in staying home and not living life too. How many pet dog die at home from poisoning, fire, electrocution, fighting with other dogs, snake bite... Again another endless and surprising list. Taking a dog out into public also has risks. We need to learn about those risks and take steps to minimize them, just as we do at home.

I don't agree with your thoughts about dogs and crowds. Any "normal" dog that has had some training and socializing will be perfectly happy and comfortable in a large crowd. You know that I do this on a regular basis with all sorts of dogs. Both finished trained movie dogs, as well as young dogs that belong to clients that are in their early stages of training and socialization. I literally take a variety of dogs through airports, security lines, and on planes. I take them to parades, festivals, crowded parks, malls, Home Depot, Walmart... essentially any where I go. I've never had a problem with anyone stepping on my dog's feet. I do that myself when I'm at home with them. Its never happened out in public. Hot pavement? I use Blackdog's method or an infrared temp gun for that. That is an easy problem to assess and avoid. Just look for shaded areas for the dog to stand in and keep them moving over the hotter areas.

Air conditioners in cars failing? I think the rarity of that makes it an invalid argument for your case. How often does that happen? I bet it happens less often than dogs burning up in house fires at home or getting struck by lighting. In 25 years of keeping dogs in cars with the AC running almost daily, I have never had one fail. On the other hand, I've never had my house burn down either. I did have one AC failure years ago, but it happened while I was driving. Its was a new vehicle and I had no dogs in the car with me at the time. When dogs are left in cars with the AC running, we simply check them frequently. Anyone can experiment with this to learn more. Put a thermometer in there and run the AC for a while, with no dog, of course. Shut the engine off and close the door. Check the thermometer every five minutes or so to see what the temp is doing. You will see how fast the temp rises to an unsafe level in YOUR car at a given temperature in your area. This will tell a person how often to check, and that is what we do on the film sets. I and everyone in my business have been doing this for decades and no one has lost a dog yet.

A person could make the same argument for people leaving their homes. We are much more likely to be robbed, murdered, hit by a car, assaulted, injured, etc... out in public than we are at home. Should people stay in and not go out in public too? Living life comes with risk. Both for people and dogs. My choice is to live life, not hide at home from it. I firmly believe that the lives of my animals are enriched by their excursions out into the dangerous world too. I don't agree with the advice to leave your animal at home because something might happen to it out in the world. Something might happen to it when home alone too. When the animal is with me I can supervise, evaluate, assess and take steps to protect them. Ever heard the term "barn sour" or "cage sour". Its what happens when a social animal isn't socialized enough. I choose the risks out in public so the animals can live a fun fulfilling life, verses a life of boredom and solitude at home without me. We can all agree to not leave a dog in a hot car, but I can't agree with not taking a dog out in public because of the possibility of the AC in the car failing. That would fall under the heading of "freak accident" in my book.

You COMPLETELY left out the danger of wayward zombies when out in public!


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## wellington (Jun 19, 2021)

Tom said:


> This is a dilemma. There is no right or wrong here, just different opinions on a matter. I'd like to share an example not related to dogs, and then relate it back to our dog conversation.
> 
> There is a married couple who are master falconers and have been working with Harris' hawks for decades. They wrote a giant book where they shared their vast knowledge and personal experience with all things Harris' hawk called "The Harris's Hawk Revolution". We falconers affectionately refer to their book as "the Harris' hawk bible". One of the most interesting features in the book is the death chapter. They've compiled a list of all the ways HHs and other raptors have killed themselves or been killed over all of their years. They've got nearly one thousand cases in the book, and they've seen many more since its publication almost 10 years ago. Most of these deaths happen while out hunting. They get electrocuted on power poles, cut themselves in half on barbed wire fences, hit by cars, killed by other wild predators, killed by dogs, carbon monoxide poisoning in the back of pick up trucks, shot by morons, stepped on by cows, killed by stinging insects, the list is endless and surprising. All of this data is even broken down into percentages. The vast majority of these deaths could have been prevented if the falconer had left his/her trained raptor at home in the safety of its mew, and not taken it out hunting. The question always asked is: What kind of life is that? The nearly unanimous answer is a variation of: Its no life at all for a raptor.
> 
> ...


We will have to agree to disagree. However, the big difference in my opinion is this. Most people bringing their dogs out into the public places I mentioned, have no real education about dogs. It's a pet they picked and not much more education has gone into it. 
Your job, show dogs, and service dogs all require extensive socialization and knowledge of the owners/handlers. That makes a big difference. 
The average family dog should too but don't get it and in my experience of seeing these dogs, where I don't believe they should be, I see fear and discomfort, not happy, glad to be there dog. 
Btw, I have no real problem with stores, as they usually are not packed in like cattle like art shows, etc are. I have a problrm with stores though, if ya leaving the dog in the car. The average person, more then not, think a few cracked open windows are enough.


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## Yvonne G (Jun 19, 2021)

wellington said:


> The dogs and puppies lost to heat in a vehicle I spoke of earlier were also professional. Professional dog handlers for show dogs. Their Van's were set up to purposely be able to leave dogs/puppies in the van while not being shown at the moment. The vehicle/AC failed. Stuff like this can happen to anyone. Anyone except those who never leaves a dog in a vehicle alone.


Two human kids, at different times this year , left in cars and died.


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## Blackdog1714 (Jun 19, 2021)

wellington said:


> We will have to agree to disagree. However, the big difference in my opinion is this. Most people bringing their dogs out into the public places I mentioned, have no real education about dogs. It's a pet they picked and not much more education has gone into it.
> Your job, show dogs, and service dogs all require extensive socialization.
> The average family dog should too but don't get it and in my experience of seeing these dogs, where I don't believe they should be, I see fear and discomfort, not happy, glad to be there dog.
> Btw, I have no real problem with stores, as they usually are not packed in like cattle like art shows, etc are. I have a problrm with stores though, if ya leaving the dog in the car. The average person, more then not, think a few cracked open windows are enough.


Well spoken sir! I cannot stand someone that brings a dog into public that is not well socialized and you get screamed at for wanting to pet it! My Newf and my Chow are very well socialized and enjoy people although I do warn people of the dangers of petting a Newf. I bring a towel to help them if they dare. Also both do well on leashes since a lot of people do not want to meet my dogs or interact with them so it is my responsibility to control them. Responsibility and Civility are in very short supply now so tread carefully, but I ain't staying locked in!


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## wellington (Jun 19, 2021)

Yvonne G said:


> Two human kids, at different times this year , left in cars and died.


That's every year. However, so are the dogs every year. They just don't make the news every time. 
Exactly why nothing live should be left in a car.


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## Yvonne G (Jun 19, 2021)

It was 112°F here yesterday and supposed to be there again today.

I made a big mistake with Misty. When she was a pup and small enough to manhandle I should have taken her places in the truck. She 's too big now and she won't jump in on her own. When I open the garage door she runs the other way - deathly afraid of going bye bye. It cuts out the trips to the vet, though.


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## queen koopa (Jun 19, 2021)

My dogs are “home dogs” we live on an acre. It was 115 here yesterday and the 1 day of the week my sister and I both work so had to leave the dogs out for 5 hours. Set their pool out under the patio and gave them multiple ice waters then proceeded to check them on the cameras. My 2 old dogs were upset about being left, my 4 yr old pit got zoomies a couple of times, dug up my mint and then laid in the “off limits” garden bed. Guess it’s not too hot for zoomies. And it seems he chose to dig for cool temps instead of the provided pool just like Koopa!


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## Maro2Bear (Jun 19, 2021)

queen koopa said:


> My dogs are “home dogs” we live on an acre. It was 115 here yesterday and the 1 day of the week my sister and I both work so had to leave the dogs out for 5 hours. Set their pool out under the patio and gave them multiple ice waters then proceeded to check them on the cameras. My 2 old dogs were upset about being left, my 4 yr old pit got zoomies a couple of times, dug up my mint and then laid in the “off limits” garden bed. Guess it’s not too hot for zoomies. And it seems he chose to dig for cool temps instead of the provided pool just like Koopa!



Zoomies?


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## Blackdog1714 (Jun 19, 2021)

Maro2Bear said:


> Zoomies?


OMG it is outrageous when they do that. My Chow is only good for about twice around my tiny City yard!


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## queen koopa (Jun 19, 2021)

Maro2Bear said:


> Zoomies?


Fun times running about spaz outs 




Then goes downstairs


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## Tom (Jun 19, 2021)

Maro2Bear said:


> Zoomies?


You know... the zoomies. AKA: The Scooby 500.


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## wellington (Jun 19, 2021)

Zoomies are the best. It's like they totally lost their minds. 
My Bull Terrier was a clown to begin with, add the zoomies and look out, she didn't care where or what she ran into.


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## Cathie G (Jun 19, 2021)

Razberri does zoomies but I had to watch the videos to now call what she does a zoomie. She usually does it when she's up to no durn good and I won't let her get by with it. Then she does rabbit ricochets off the walls and runs figure eights around me... basically telling me I ain't the boss! She is?


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## Maggie3fan (Jun 19, 2021)

I have just one comment...'dog people' often forget there are some very almost rational human people who don't much care for dogs in her...I mean their old age. When an untrained or socialized dog is taken in a public place it can be disruptive and scary.
And their owners make the damn dog more important than anyone else around.


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## Cathie G (Jun 19, 2021)

maggie3fan said:


> I have just one comment...'dog people' often forget there are some very almost rational human people who don't much care for dogs in her...I mean their old age. When an untrained or socialized dog is taken in a public place it can be disruptive and scary.
> And their owners make the damn dog more important than anyone else around.


I've seen that when a pit bull chased my brother through our yard right up to the front door. The dog wasn't on a leash. When I told off the owner he said she won't hurt you ? so I told the dog to go home. The dog went flying home with the owner trying to catch up ?? Then I called the dog catcher. Yes some people are really dumb about their dogs. If the dog isn't really well trained and on a leash, the owner is being abusive to the dog and people that come in contact with them.


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## mark1 (Jun 19, 2021)

wellington said:


> The dogs and puppies lost to heat in a vehicle I spoke of earlier were also professional. Professional dog handlers for show dogs. Their Van's were set up to purposely be able to leave dogs/puppies in the van while not being shown at the moment. The vehicle/AC failed. Stuff like this can happen to anyone. Anyone except those who never leaves a dog in a vehicle alone.


the number and frequency of cop K9 dogs that have died in cop cars would surprise most folks ......... i knew a guy paid a service to deliver a dog , a dedicated business that moved dogs by ground in climate controlled vans ........ to move a dog from the east coast to california , paid 20 grand for the dog , couldn't fly the dog due to airline restrictions on american bulldogs , the air in the van failed in arizona and his dog died ........ i have to agree it's not the best practice ........imo


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## queen koopa (Jun 19, 2021)

mark1 said:


> the number and frequency of cop K9 dogs that have died in cop cars would surprise most folks ......... i knew a guy paid a service to deliver a dog , a dedicated business that moved dogs by ground in climate controlled vans ........ to move a dog from the east coast to california , paid 20 grand for the dog , couldn't fly the dog due to airline restrictions on american bulldogs , the air in the van failed in arizona and his dog died ........ i have to agree it's not the best practice ........imo


The dog cost $20K or the move in the van cost $20K?


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## mark1 (Jun 19, 2021)

queen koopa said:


> The dog cost $20K or the move in the van cost $20K?


the dog cost 20k


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## wellington (Jun 19, 2021)

mark1 said:


> the number and frequency of cop K9 dogs that have died in cop cars would surprise most folks ......... i knew a guy paid a service to deliver a dog , a dedicated business that moved dogs by ground in climate controlled vans ........ to move a dog from the east coast to california , paid 20 grand for the dog , couldn't fly the dog due to airline restrictions on american bulldogs , the air in the van failed in arizona and his dog died ........ i have to agree it's not the best practice ........imo


That's the thing, it happens more then anyone knows. It's not top of the world news. 
I know of enough failed times that I would not trust it without all the added precautions Tom mentioned. The average person will not do that though.


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## mark1 (Jun 19, 2021)

i remembered i was surprised how many cop K9 dogs died in cop cars , i googled this part of what i just wrote *" cop K9 dogs that have died in cop cars" *and this article was first 

this was from 2011-2015

46 police dogs died in hot squad cars​ https://www.greenbaypressgazette.co...dogs-died-hot-squad-cars-since-2011/73476592/


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## wellington (Jun 19, 2021)

mark1 said:


> i remembered i was surprised how many cop K9 dogs died in cop cars , i googled this part of what i just wrote *" cop K9 dogs that have died in cop cars" *and this article was first
> 
> this was from 2011-2015
> 
> 46 police dogs died in hot squad cars​ https://www.greenbaypressgazette.co...dogs-died-hot-squad-cars-since-2011/73476592/


That is disgusting and never, ever, should happen to any dog and specially a cop dog!


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## KarenSoCal (Jun 19, 2021)

Tom said:


> Air conditioners in cars failing? I think the rarity of that makes it an invalid argument for your case. How often does that happen?



I agree that this is probably a rarity, but years ago when Pete and I were driving our truck, we stopped for the night at a truckstop in AL. We had our 2 dogs with us and were walking them around the property.

We came upon a driver who was sitting on the steps into his cab, and struck up a conversation. He started petting our dogs, and suddenly burst into tears.

Just that day, he had left his little dog in the truck while he went inside and showered and ate dinner. When he returned, his truck engine had shut off and his dog had died from the heat.

We had a generator on our truck and a rooftop AC unit, but I was always nervous when we left them on a hot day. We went to a movie one time...I could hear if the generator was running from a fairly good distance. I went out and listened twice during the movie.

This was our truck. We made good money as a team hauling very high-dollar cargo.


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## Blackdog1714 (Jun 20, 2021)

My favorite bad dog owner move is the beach! I am fishing with my dog off leash. my dog goes to dog camp all the time, meets people in public, and wants to meet people and other dogs more than eat (almost). So why do you walk within 6' of me and my obvious setup and scream it me to put my dog on a leash when you and your dog are A$$holes! I kinda get though since anti-social people raise and handle anti-social dogs. Secret alert this years OBX vacation will be the first ever without a dog. I love em but I can hold the first bathroom trip of the day for at least 2 hours if the sleep is good!


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## wellington (Jun 20, 2021)

Blackdog1714 said:


> My favorite bad dog owner move is the beach! I am fishing with my dog off leash. my dog goes to dog camp all the time, meets people in public, and wants to meet people and other dogs more than eat (almost). So why do you walk within 6' of me and my obvious setup and scream it me to put my dog on a leash when you and your dog are A$$holes! I kinda get though since anti-social people raise and handle anti-social dogs. Secret alert this years OBX vacation will be the first ever without a dog. I love em but I can hold the first bathroom trip of the day for at least 2 hours if the sleep is good!


Leash laws are all over. Unless you are on your own property or dog parks/dog beach, the dog needs to be on a leash. 
I think its funny those that break the leash law think those that don't are A holes and those that don't break the leash law think those that do break it are A holes.
It's actually the same with those that wouldn't ever leave a dog in a car and those that will.


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## ArmadilloPup (Jun 20, 2021)

wellington said:


> Leash laws are all over. Unless you are on your own property or dog parks/dog beach, the dog needs to be on a leash.
> I think its funny those that break the leash law think those that don't are A holes and those that don't break the leash law think those that do break it are A holes.
> It's actually the same with those that wouldn't ever leave a dog in a car and those that will.


Big-time agree with this. It does warm my heart seeing an owner with a faithful good-natured dog that sticks to them like glue. But even rural areas are getting crowded with new people and new dogs. You never know when another not-so-nice dog will come along or something will trigger an instinct. I get to hear it at my main job all the time - "My dog has_ never _acted like that before!" (Well yeah, I'm normally nice, but I'd bite too if a stranger held me down under a loud force dryer!)

IMO the main reason it's really not cool to let a dog run loose is because they chase wildlife that have been pushed out of their natural range. Especially birds. When I was sent to capture injured geese for a rescue, peoples' dogs often complicated things. And the owners would sometimes laugh even though the geese belong there and the dog doesn't need to be. Even a good dog will accidentally scare off shore birds and sensitive and decreasing species like bobwhites and kildeer, leaving orphaned little ones.


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## mark1 (Jun 20, 2021)

my opinion on off leash , there is a time and place for it whether your dog is friendly or not ....... i've raised some extreme dog aggressive dogs , i've raised timids dogs , solid dogs and "mean" dogs , i've never raised a dog that was a problem for me or anyone else ....... when some ones loose dog runs up on mine on a trail and tells me their dog is friendly , often didn't help me , cause mine wasn't ........ i've had dogs would try and kill a strange dog 100% , i could walk them by another dog , both on leashes , on a 6 foot wide trail without a problem ...... i've had loose dogs run up on my dog on leash without the owner being anywhere in site , then when the owner arrived they were afraid to help break up the fight ........ common sense is needed in off leash decisions , my dogs off leash are never out of my sight , ever , and i'm looking around for anything and everything .....,,

a few of my dogs


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## queen koopa (Jun 20, 2021)

mark1 said:


> my opinion on off leash , there is a time and place for it whether your dog is friendly or not ....... i've raised some extreme dog aggressive dogs , i've raised timids dogs , solid dogs and "mean" dogs , i've never raised a dog that was a problem for me or anyone else ....... when some ones loose dog runs up on mine on a trail and tells me their dog is friendly , often didn't help me , cause mine wasn't ........ i've had dogs would try and kill a strange dog 100% , i could walk them by another dog , both on leashes , on a 6 foot wide trail without a problem ...... i've had loose dogs run up on my dog on leash without the owner being anywhere in site , then when the owner arrived they were afraid to help break up the fight ........ common sense is needed in off leash decisions , my dogs off leash are never out of my sight , ever , and i'm looking around for anything and everything .....,,
> 
> a few of my dogs


Well said: a time and place for on and off leash. Those are some massive dogs hahah


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## SasquatchTortoise (Jun 20, 2021)

remember to keep your tortoises safe, too! A warning that it's too hot is if they sit on their shell and don't use their legs


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## SasquatchTortoise (Jun 20, 2021)

mark1 said:


> i remembered i was surprised how many cop K9 dogs died in cop cars , i googled this part of what i just wrote *" cop K9 dogs that have died in cop cars" *and this article was first
> 
> this was from 2011-2015
> 
> 46 police dogs died in hot squad cars​https://www.greenbaypressgazette.co...dogs-died-hot-squad-cars-since-2011/73476592/


The irresponsibility of some people is baffling to me


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## wellington (Jun 20, 2021)

mark1 said:


> my opinion on off leash , there is a time and place for it whether your dog is friendly or not ....... i've raised some extreme dog aggressive dogs , i've raised timids dogs , solid dogs and "mean" dogs , i've never raised a dog that was a problem for me or anyone else ....... when some ones loose dog runs up on mine on a trail and tells me their dog is friendly , often didn't help me , cause mine wasn't ........ i've had dogs would try and kill a strange dog 100% , i could walk them by another dog , both on leashes , on a 6 foot wide trail without a problem ...... i've had loose dogs run up on my dog on leash without the owner being anywhere in site , then when the owner arrived they were afraid to help break up the fight ........ common sense is needed in off leash decisions , my dogs off leash are never out of my sight , ever , and i'm looking around for anything and everything .....,,
> 
> a few of my dogs


Beautiful dogs!
What people don't understand about the leash law is the fact the owner is suppose to have 100% control at all times. Even the very best trained dog will possibly have at least one thing that will make them not obey an owners voice command. Hence the reason for the leash.


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## S2G (Jun 20, 2021)

Well common sense has to be used. I'm a no dogs in the house person & I don't do designer animals that cant breath normally etc. I like bird dogs myself German short hairs & English pointers. They stay outside & have cool areas to relax even in 100F/high humidity days. I pull them back working on hot days. I've had people jump all over me about my dogs being outside out of pure ignorance while they're shitzu looks like friar tuck due to its hair falling out from the stress etc.

I think we have lost our minds with animals these days & are into the realm of a mental disorder. In the age of perpetual adolescence we forget these are dogs & not actual children. You're not a dog mom/dad and that's not a furbaby it's your pet. Theres no doubt we have a special bond with our animals, but leave sparky at home when you go in the bank/home depot/grocery store/etc. It's a respect thing with me. I'll walk my dogs in public, but I respect areas where I have to be in the vicinity of others that might not like dogs. Theres just more appropriate places to take your animal. Treat it like a dog & you might be able to take it off those anxiety meds.


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## wellington (Jun 20, 2021)

S2G said:


> Well common sense has to be used. I'm a no dogs in the house person & I don't do designer animals that cant breath normally etc. I like bird dogs myself German short hairs & English pointers. They stay outside & have cool areas to relax even in 100F/high humidity days. I pull them back working on hot days. I've had people jump all over me about my dogs being outside out of pure ignorance while they're shitzu looks like friar tuck due to its hair falling out from the stress etc.
> 
> I think we have lost our minds with animals these days & are into the realm of a mental disorder. In the age of perpetual adolescence we forget these are dogs & not actual children. You're not a dog mom/dad and that's not a furbaby it's your pet. Theres no doubt we have a special bond with our animals, but leave sparky at home when you go in the bank/home depot/grocery store/etc. It's a respect thing with me. I'll walk my dogs in public, but I respect areas where I have to be in the vicinity of others that might not like dogs. Theres just more appropriate places to take your animal. Treat it like a dog & you might be able to take it off those anxiety meds.


In some states, its against the law to keep any dog outside during extreme cold. I hope they make it the same for extreme heat. 
What or who you think have lost their minds over their fur baby/pet, those same people feel the same about your opinion. 
The only wrong are the ones putting the dogs life in danger, neglectful or abusive.


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## S2G (Jun 20, 2021)

Lol it's always a fan favorite when I mention something about pet parents. I'm a nightcrawler dad. I feed and take care of them their entire life they're my babies! To each their own I guess. 

That's ridiculous as well what's extreme cold? A husky would be rolling & doing back flips in cold that would freeze a short hair dog. Where a husky would stroke out in heat that another will run in....what about banning "dangerous" dogs. Someone's pitbull can be way less dangerous than another person's poodle. We've become a society of extremes even though we've been taught usually thats a bad thing. Extreme furbaby people are just as bad as the outside in heat dog people...its just the perception that's it better since they're abusing the animal in a more plush way. 

What's neglect keeping a bird dog that's bred to range 500yrds in a town home while you work all day or someone like me who keeps them outside on an acreage with proper shelter from the elements? I misspoke earlier I do bring them in at night to avoid theft or during tornado weather.


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## wellington (Jun 20, 2021)

S2G said:


> Lol it's always a fan favorite when I mention something about pet parents. I'm a nightcrawler dad. I feed and take care of them their entire life they're my babies! To each their own I guess.
> 
> That's ridiculous as well what's extreme cold? A husky would be rolling & doing back flips in cold that would freeze a short hair dog. Where a husky would stroke out in heat that another will run in....what about banning "dangerous" dogs. Someone's pitbull can be way less dangerous than another person's poodle. We've become a society of extremes even though we've been taught usually thats a bad thing. Extreme furbaby people are just as bad as the outside in heat dog people...its just the perception that's it better since they're abusing the animal in a more plush way.
> 
> What's neglect keeping a bird dog that's bred to range 500yrds in a town home while you work all day or someone like me who keeps them outside on an acreage with proper shelter from the elements? I misspoke earlier I do bring them in at night to avoid theft or during tornado weather.


You have to remember. A lot of people are either cruel, ignorant or plain stupid. Many dogs that should not be out in extreme cold and are not built for extreme cold are left outside. Like the Pitbull, like your dogs. 
Just because you have acreage doesn't mean you take better care then the townhome person. I know many people with acreage, that should never have a dog. I know people with homes and average yard, that should adopt every homeless dog. It's what you do for them not what you have. 
The laws are meant for everyone but were made because of the ignorant idiots.


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## Blackdog1714 (Jun 20, 2021)

wellington said:


> In some states, its against the law to keep any dog outside during extreme cold. I hope they make it the same for extreme heat.
> What or who you think have lost their minds over their fur baby/pet, those same people feel the same about your opinion.
> The only wrong are the ones putting the dogs life in danger, neglectful or abusive.


My furry beasts love the cold. Heck in the winter my Newfie goes outside cause I have the heat up to high! 70 degrees only when I am home awake otherwise it is 60 degrees.


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## wellington (Jun 20, 2021)

Blackdog1714 said:


> My furry beasts love the cold. Heck in the winter my Newfie goes outside cause I have the heat up to high! 70 degrees only when I am home awake otherwise it is 60 degrees.


It's not the cold. It's the minus temps with minus wind chill that could freeze and dogs feet, face, etc. Extreme cold is very different then cold.


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## S2G (Jun 20, 2021)

wellington said:


> You have to remember. A lot of people are either cruel, ignorant or plain stupid. Many dogs that should not be out in extreme cold and are not built for extreme cold are left outside. Like the Pitbull, like your dogs.
> Just because you have acreage doesn't mean you take better care then the townhome person. I know many people with acreage, that should never have a dog. I know people with homes and average yard, that should adopt every homeless dog. It's what you do for them not what you have.
> The laws are meant for everyone but were made because of the ignorant idiots.



The perception would be that I'm a bad owner since I keep my dogs outside. The townhome scenario is the equivalent of keeping a sulcata in a 10x10 enclosure. I could give the best food & care to a sulcata...but if it's in a 10x10 area then would do I really be responsible getting one? Mom/dad seems to tote more importance than dog owner & these laws seem to cater to this new mindset.

Honestly I'm trying to understand this whole pet parent thing. I breed German short hairs on occassion, but I get a lot of emails lately that read "I'm a good dog mom or I'm a mom to 3 dog's & 1 cat". I end up rejecting them due to them wanting to own this dog in a tiny yard or backyard breed which they get offended. They cant understand this is a working dog that will destroy everything you own & walk all over you if you try to treat it like a human...but since they're a good pet parent how could I not consider them so they lose it.

I don't mean to poke fun I'm just trying to understand the rationale behind these new pet laws & how someone can get to this type of mindset....for example happy fathers day to the tort dads. I agree people are downright cruel with pets & I don't know why they even get them. Fish & reptiles are almost throw away commodities


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## mark1 (Jun 20, 2021)

dogs been with people since we were animals ourselves.... are you one of those people thinks people are not animals ? 
my late wife raised weimaraners , i've had a bunch , beautiful dogs , crazier than woodrats , biters , i'm amazed they are not used in protection sport , they're absolutely smart enough ,maybe not enough fight ...... definitely not a dog for everyone , but certainly house trainable 











my wife had an american rott when i met her , i was given this german rott after he bit one too many people ......











here's a bordeaux running 8 1/4 miles in 54 minutes , when she's done you can't even hear her breathing .... the complete run is on the other videos 















i was raised by a pit enthusiast with a yard full of working pitbulls .......... my wife had this designer dog , i've had pitbulls , bullmastiffs , bordeauxs , neos , rotts , spaniels , poodles , weimaraners , a shi tzu , lasa apso , and french bulldogs ...... i actually don't understand where folks with your point of view get it from , not to be offensive , just trying to understand ???? i assure you your german shorthairs are as house trainable as any dog, you just got to know how ......... my kennel dogs can live in the house , but then i'm probably a more experienced dog "dad" than you ...... if your dogs are destroying your house , they're bored .......


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## wellington (Jun 20, 2021)

S2G said:


> The perception would be that I'm a bad owner since I keep my dogs outside. The townhome scenario is the equivalent of keeping a sulcata in a 10x10 enclosure. I could give the best food & care to a sulcata...but if it's in a 10x10 area then would do I really be responsible getting one? Mom/dad seems to tote more importance than dog owner & these laws seem to cater to this new mindset.
> 
> Honestly I'm trying to understand this whole pet parent thing. I breed German short hairs on occassion, but I get a lot of emails lately that read "I'm a good dog mom or I'm a mom to 3 dog's & 1 cat". I end up rejecting them due to them wanting to own this dog in a tiny yard or backyard breed which they get offended. They cant understand this is a working dog that will destroy everything you own & walk all over you if you try to treat it like a human...but since they're a good pet parent how could I not consider them so they lose it.
> 
> I don't mean to poke fun I'm just trying to understand the rationale behind these new pet laws & how someone can get to this type of mindset....for example happy fathers day to the tort dads. I agree people are downright cruel with pets & I don't know why they even get them. Fish & reptiles are almost throw away commodities


I think a dog in a townhouse is much different then a sulcata in a 10x10
There are many ways to mentally and physically entertain a dog that lives in a townhouse. Dog walkers, daycares and family once home.
Might be more the mind set of city dwellers versus country/suburban dwellers. City dwellers in my side of the city invest a lot of time into their dogs. Daycare, walkers and taking them out themselves. 
Dogs/pets are family members. I don't understand your point as much as you don't understand mine. My animals are part of my family. I will do whatever it takes to keep them happy, healthy and thriving and have done so. 
Years ago I raised and showed Chinese Shar-Pei. You could get a million dollar loan easier then one of my pups. They were my responsibility and I needed to find them the best home possible. I totally understand you being picky about who gets your pups. However, someone that what's to love it like a family member, would be top on my list, along with proper education on the breeds characteristics. 
It's really simple. People will always defend what they do. They will always think their way is better. The real problem is when they are right fighters just to be right even if they aren't. 
As long as the dog is happy, healthy and thriving, not abused or neglected, it can't be wrong.


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## Krista S (Jun 20, 2021)

S2G said:


> The perception would be that I'm a bad owner since I keep my dogs outside. The townhome scenario is the equivalent of keeping a sulcata in a 10x10 enclosure. I could give the best food & care to a sulcata...but if it's in a 10x10 area then would do I really be responsible getting one? Mom/dad seems to tote more importance than dog owner & these laws seem to cater to this new mindset.
> 
> Honestly I'm trying to understand this whole pet parent thing. I breed German short hairs on occassion, but I get a lot of emails lately that read "I'm a good dog mom or I'm a mom to 3 dog's & 1 cat". I end up rejecting them due to them wanting to own this dog in a tiny yard or backyard breed which they get offended. They cant understand this is a working dog that will destroy everything you own & walk all over you if you try to treat it like a human...but since they're a good pet parent how could I not consider them so they lose it.
> 
> I don't mean to poke fun I'm just trying to understand the rationale behind these new pet laws & how someone can get to this type of mindset....for example happy fathers day to the tort dads. I agree people are downright cruel with pets & I don't know why they even get them. Fish & reptiles are almost throw away commodities


Once again, because someone considers themselves a “pet parent” doesn’t mean they treat that pet like a human. I’m a tortoise mom and I treat my tortoise like a tortoise, as I wrote about in the other thread. You’re way too fixated on this topic and are reading too much into it, in my opinion. I see my happy Father’s Day post in the other thread is eating you up inside too. It’s not a bad or evil thing to consider yourself a pet parent. It brings happiness and light into some peoples lives and there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m proud to own my happy…well…sometimes grouchy ? but healthy tortoise. I’m proud to be referred to as a tort mom. It’s a badge of honour that I get to care for my tortoise. My point here is, we aren’t all bad people. Some of us pet parents do things by the books, properly and provide the best care possible.


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## Jan A (Jun 20, 2021)

wellington said:


> That is disgusting and never, ever, should happen to any dog and specially a cop dog!





wellington said:


> I think a dog in a townhouse is much different then a sulcata in a 10x10
> There are many ways to mentally and physically entertain a dog that lives in a townhouse. Dog walkers, daycares and family once home.
> Might be more the mind set of city dwellers versus country/suburban dwellers. City dwellers in my side of the city invest a lot of time into their dogs. Daycare, walkers and taking them out themselves.
> Dogs/pets are family members. I don't understand your point as much as you don't understand mine. My animals are part of my family. I will do whatever it takes to keep them happy, healthy and thriving and have done so.
> ...


But in all of this, I've heard no one talk about barking dogs--uncontrolled barking dogs put outside who bark & bark & bark and even bark uncontrollably when inside. How can ANYONE think it's ok?? It's one of the reasons we moved. 

I luv dogs. I luv my "nephews," who are little yippers & are insulted if people don't fawn all over them at Home Depot. After 26 yrs in the same house, I finally don't hear non-stop dog barking when I go out on my driveway in the new house. What a relief!!


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## Blackdog1714 (Jun 21, 2021)

wellington said:


> It's not the cold. It's the minus temps with minus wind chill that could freeze and dogs feet, face, etc. Extreme cold is very different then cold.


OMG so true! I lived in Ohio until I was 26 now VA. I can remember the storm of 1993 that dumped several feet of snow in Akron. For a whole week 0 was the high temp and when you went outside it stole your breath. I do not keep my dogs outside because I enjoy and rely on them to work so I have a doggie door to help. Even in Ohio I remember a neighbor that had a dog Mahal - it had heat for winter and air conditioning for summer. Climate control is imperative. Once years ago I had to deal with a VA gentleman riding his horse through Byrd Park-legal BTW- BUT It was a code Red weather day mid 90's with almost 80% humidity. He tried to babble on about horse heat conditioning and such, but I just explained what legally "Overdriving and animal was". It was amazing how far he and the horse went when he now had to walk it! ?


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## Blackdog1714 (Jun 21, 2021)

Jan A said:


> But in all of this, I've heard no one talk about barking dogs--uncontrolled barking dogs put outside who bark & bark & bark and even bark uncontrollably when inside. How can ANYONE think it's ok?? It's one of the reasons we moved.
> 
> I luv dogs. I luv my "nephews," who are little yippers & are insulted if people don't fawn all over them at Home Depot. After 26 yrs in the same house, I finally don't hear non-stop dog barking when I go out on my driveway in the new house. What a relief!!


IN RVA - Barks, whines, howls, or makes other annoying noises in an excessive, continuous, or untimely fashion. It is legally equated to if the dog does not have an obvious outside stimuli then it could be excessive. So people walking, dogs on leashes even squirrels. Now a dog that is fence aggressive that has a chain link fence is a whole other ball of legal wax. I do not like to hear dogs unless it is necessary and readily reward my dogs when they let go after hearing someone knock on the door-I have a no solicitors/trespassing sign-and the large dogs barking reminds the ? head that they shouldn't be on my porch. I work with my dogs to not be yappers since I do like that. My neighbors that are interested are given a replenishing supply of biscuits so they make friends if they wish otherwise I will not let my neighbors be barked at while in their own yard whether they are friends or not. I am losing my hearing, but I am not deaf to my dogs barking!
I had a blue Chow years ago that could go out on the front porch and stay all day not making a sound when people and dogs walked by. She taught herself to bark at the Jehovah's Witnesses every time they Talked to her. She would just stand up and stare at them while chuffing. To this day thanks to that Chow I am on the master list as AVOID!!!


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## Maro2Bear (Jun 21, 2021)

So getting back to the Deadly Heat topic. Here in Maryland the last few days it’s been climbing into the low 90s, with humidity in the mid-70’s. I walked out onto our wooden deck to water a few plants and could feel the heat emanating upward. Grabbed my IR temp sensor.....and the average temperature of the deck was 135-140F.

So, keep those feet - human & animal - up & away from those baking in the sun structures.

Its SUMMER, and it’s painfully hot.


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## wellington (Jun 21, 2021)

Jan A said:


> But in all of this, I've heard no one talk about barking dogs--uncontrolled barking dogs put outside who bark & bark & bark and even bark uncontrollably when inside. How can ANYONE think it's ok?? It's one of the reasons we moved.
> 
> I luv dogs. I luv my "nephews," who are little yippers & are insulted if people don't fawn all over them at Home Depot. After 26 yrs in the same house, I finally don't hear non-stop dog barking when I go out on my driveway in the new house. What a relief!!


In my opinion, most owners don't realize their dogs bark when they are not home. People complain about it but never tell the owners. 
In the city of Chicago there is a nuisance law about barking dogs. It applies to any dog barking nonstop day or night inside or out. 
I don't like a dog barking for no reason nonstop. A have a neighbor 3 houses down with 2 dogs and they like to bark at nothing and everything. The people are home, sometimes sitting out on their deck and won't say anything to try and stop them. I just ignore it. I live hear O'hare airport, right in a flight path. Used to live by the L train. Both places were near hospitals and busy streets. Noise for me is normal and easily ignored.


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## wellington (Jun 21, 2021)

Krista S said:


> Once again, because someone considers themselves a “pet parent” doesn’t mean they treat that pet like a human. I’m a tortoise mom and I treat my tortoise like a tortoise, as I wrote about in the other thread. You’re way too fixated on this topic and are reading too much into it, in my opinion. I see my happy Father’s Day post in the other thread is eating you up inside too. It’s not a bad or evil thing to consider yourself a pet parent. It brings happiness and light into some peoples lives and there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m proud to own my happy…well…sometimes grouchy ? but healthy tortoise. I’m proud to be referred to as a tort mom. It’s a badge of honour that I get to care for my tortoise. My point here is, we aren’t all bad people. Some of us pet parents do things by the books, properly and provide the best care possible.


IMO pet parents view their pets as a family member.
Owners think of the pet as a piece of property.
There is good and bad in both, more so though in those that are just owners. 
I'm very proud to be a pet mom too!


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## Maggie3fan (Jun 21, 2021)

wellington said:


> Beautiful dogs!
> What people don't understand about the leash law is the fact the owner is suppose to have 100% control at all times. Even the very best trained dog will possibly have at least one thing that will make them not obey an owners voice command. Hence the reason for the leash.


BUT...ahundred years ago I obedience trained dogs...and if I got a dog who was angry and under-socialized I put a "pinch" collar, those Mastiffs(?) are wearing halters, you cannot have the same control with a pis*ed off dog the size of those. Can ya?


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## wellington (Jun 21, 2021)

maggie3fan said:


> BUT...ahundred years ago I obedience trained dogs...and if I got a dog who was angry and under-socialized I put a "pinch" collar, those Mastiffs(?) are wearing halters, you cannot have the same control with a pis*ed off dog the size of those. Can ya?


Not my dogs, but I too used to train dogs. Btw, the owners are the ones I trained, the dogs were much smarter. Lol
But imo yes, some angry dogs can still be capable of listening to their owners and be held in control with any collar. Not common and not many though I'm sure.


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## wellington (Jun 21, 2021)

maggie3fan said:


> BUT...ahundred years ago I obedience trained dogs...and if I got a dog who was angry and under-socialized I put a "pinch" collar, those Mastiffs(?) are wearing halters, you cannot have the same control with a pis*ed off dog the size of those. Can ya?


Oh and they aren't my dogs but there are 
Bordeaux, Rott and Weimaraners pictured above by Mark1


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## Maggie3fan (Jun 21, 2021)

wellington said:


> Oh and they aren't my dogs but they are
> Bordeaux, Rott and Weimaraners pictured above by Mark1


I don't hate dogs, and the Mastiff is drop dead gorgeous


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## wellington (Jun 21, 2021)

maggie3fan said:


> I don't hate dogs, and the Mastiff is drop dead gorgeous


Dogs are my favorite and yes they are gorgeous dogs.


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## S2G (Jun 21, 2021)

wellington said:


> I think a dog in a townhouse is much different then a sulcata in a 10x10
> There are many ways to mentally and physically entertain a dog that lives in a townhouse. Dog walkers, daycares and family once home.
> Might be more the mind set of city dwellers versus country/suburban dwellers. City dwellers in my side of the city invest a lot of time into their dogs. Daycare, walkers and taking them out themselves.
> Dogs/pets are family members. I don't understand your point as much as you don't understand mine. My animals are part of my family. I will do whatever it takes to keep them happy, healthy and thriving and have done so.
> ...



Its exactly the same & that's what I'm getting at. The perception is it's ok, because it's a furbaby & it's ok to treat it as a human. When in reality its needs are not being met. Theres gsp rescues filled with dogs someone got over their head with just like the poor sulcata's. Now for some reason theres laws that side with the small space dog mom people yet punish dog owners. Which is wrong...the real problem is people treating pets like an expendable commodity though.

I think you & other people are taking offense since you use the same terms...basically terms of endearment. I'm speaking of the people that take it to the literal level & throw away the animal...or dump their broken mess on someone like us when they fail then rinse/wash/repeat. 

What I'm getting at is the use of these misleading terms groups you in with a pretty unique group of people. Basically you do it this way or you cant own this pet. Look at what the reptile industry is going through now or the saltwater hobbyist industry. 

I could care less about how someone describes themselves. It's when its forced on the rest of us especially with restrictions or laws is when I take issue.



Krista S said:


> Once again, because someone considers themselves a “pet parent” doesn’t mean they treat that pet like a human. I’m a tortoise mom and I treat my tortoise like a tortoise, as I wrote about in the other thread. You’re way too fixated on this topic and are reading too much into it, in my opinion. I see my happy Father’s Day post in the other thread is eating you up inside too. It’s not a bad or evil thing to consider yourself a pet parent. It brings happiness and light into some peoples lives and there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m proud to own my happy…well…sometimes grouchy ? but healthy tortoise. I’m proud to be referred to as a tort mom. It’s a badge of honour that I get to care for my tortoise. My point here is, we aren’t all bad people. Some of us pet parents do things by the books, properly and provide the best care possible.



It's not as deep as you think lol. A parent/mother/father etc by definition in biology or anywhere is within your own species. If I said 2+2 = 5 would you say no that's 4 or would you say I support your decision since you seem to care so much about math? I'm taken back I'm having this convo honestly. 

It's kind of like the peaceful protesters. Yeah you're peaceful, but your in a group with half the people throwing molotov cocktails.


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## wellington (Jun 21, 2021)

S2G said:


> Its exactly the same & that's what I'm getting at. The perception is it's ok, because it's a furbaby & it's ok to treat it as a human. When in reality its needs are not being met. Theres gsp rescues filled with dogs someone got over their head with just like the poor sulcata's. Now for some reason theres laws that side with the small space dog mom people yet punish dog owners. Which is wrong...the real problem is people treating pets like an expendable commodity though.
> 
> I think you & other people are taking offense since you use the same terms...basically terms of endearment. I'm speaking of the people that take it to the literal level & throw away the animal...or dump their broken mess on someone like us when they fail then rinse/wash/repeat.
> 
> ...


You lost me with this post.
It's never okay to neglect or abuse an animal of any kind. 
There is no regulations on people getting an animal. No test to see if they can provide for the animal or have space for the animal or the means to give the animal what it needs to be happy and healthy. 
Some people should never own an animal. Some people give over and above care and spend what some think is over and above, some don't or can't. The laws are there to prevent abuse/neglect from those people that are idiots and should not have gotten the dog. 
Any dog lover would welcome such laws to prevent animal abuse/neglect. Having a big dog in a small apartment is not the same as a sully in a 10x10. The dog can still be enriched in other ways outside the home as I already mentioned. A sully can not, at least not once it has gotten too big to be carried. 
If the dog is properly being taken care of in every way, then the laws really shouldn't bother you. Laws usually bother those that break them.


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## Cathie G (Jun 21, 2021)

Maro2Bear said:


> So getting back to the Deadly Heat topic. Here in Maryland the last few days it’s been climbing into the low 90s, with humidity in the mid-70’s. I walked out onto our wooden deck to water a few plants and could feel the heat emanating upward. Grabbed my IR temp sensor.....and the average temperature of the deck was 135-140F.
> 
> So, keep those feet - human & animal - up & away from those baking in the sun structures.
> 
> Its SUMMER, and it’s painfully hot.


Amen to that. My back yard gets that high in the summer. I'm in Ohio and supposedly it's 90f but in the sun it can cook you like you're in a crock pot.


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## mark1 (Jun 21, 2021)

maggie3fan said:


> BUT...ahundred years ago I obedience trained dogs...and if I got a dog who was angry and under-socialized I put a "pinch" collar, those Mastiffs(?) are wearing halters, you cannot have the same control with a pis*ed off dog the size of those. Can ya?


Maggie , there are actually 10 different mastiffs pictured , they were all born here , they knew me their entire life , they were "trained" long before they were adults in need of such devices , none of them ever wore a collar ....... the wiemers i used harnesses that hooked in the front on their chest , their thin dogs and easily turned...... i never found a need for a collar of any kind , i had pretty good control with a hook in front or on top of their shoulder , i been dragged a few times , but we always came to an understanding i was right ......


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## mark1 (Jun 21, 2021)

Maro2Bear said:


> So getting back to the Deadly Heat topic. Here in Maryland the last few days it’s been climbing into the low 90s, with humidity in the mid-70’s. I walked out onto our wooden deck to water a few plants and could feel the heat emanating upward. Grabbed my IR temp sensor.....and the average temperature of the deck was 135-140F.
> 
> So, keep those feet - human & animal - up & away from those baking in the sun structures.
> 
> Its SUMMER, and it’s painfully hot.


i find humidity is worse than the heat , an 80 degree day with humidity below 50 is less dangerous than a 70 degree with humidity in the 80's ........ dog's cool off through their mouths , and sinuses ....... their skin and coat act as insulation to cold and heat , it's why they can sleep in a snow bank , they do not lose heat through their coat ....... humidity inhibits evaporation , dogs lose most heat through evaporation in their mouths and sinuses ..... they lose some heat through their feet ,ears , groin and forearms ......


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## Cathie G (Jun 21, 2021)

I have to say as far as leashes go... My grandchildren, when they were little and getting into everything got put on a leash if we were out in public with them. One was a monkey vest with a tail that could be unattached. My grandson said I think you should unhook my tail. We just laughed cause it's good parenting to keep them close if stuff gets too tempting. We call them yard apes, rug rats, and curtain climbers. I think that's somewhat close to calling a dog a fur baby or a tortoise a shell baby. We are parenting all of them by doing what they need to be safe. So yes I'm a tort parent ?


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## Tom (Jun 21, 2021)

The mass ignorance present in the general public about dogs, dog behavior and dog training is astounding. I've seen it both ways to the extremes. I'm the guy that gets called in to deal with the problems caused by people doing the wrong things on either end of this spectrum. I don't see any of that terrible ignorance from anyone commenting here on this thread. I see people here who "get" dogs and understand what it means to meet their needs. Whether you call it your fur baby, or define it strictly as a working dog, everyone on this thread seems to understand what they are doing and why.

Nuisance barkers, out-of-control off leash dogs, and dogs housed or cared for poorly are the issue here, and I think we all agree on that.

Back to Karen's original point: Its getting hot out there. Pay attention and be careful with your pets. I wish good fortune upon all of you.

@mark1 We don't agree on everything all the time, but when I'm ready for another Bullmastiff, I'm calling you. Gorgeous dogs.


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## KarenSoCal (Jun 21, 2021)

wellington said:


> Zoomies are the best. It's like they totally lost their minds.
> My Bull Terrier was a clown to begin with, add the zoomies and look out, she didn't care where or what she ran into.


Bullies are the poster children for zoomies! Friends of mine have one around 6 months old and he's hilarious to behold!


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## wellington (Jun 22, 2021)

KarenSoCal said:


> Bullies are the poster children for zoomies! Friends of mine have one around 6 months old and he's hilarious to behold!


Oh you got that right! 
If you're in their way when they zoomie, they will take you out. Like tortoises, Bullies think they can just go thru anything. Lol


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## Tom (Jun 22, 2021)

KarenSoCal said:


> Bullies are the poster children for zoomies! Friends of mine have one around 6 months old and he's hilarious to behold!


Yeah. They are the only dog I know that will get the zoomies even on leash with a professional trainer handling them... Holy Cow! Ask me how I know this...


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## KarenSoCal (Jun 22, 2021)

Tom said:


> Yeah. They are the only dog I know that will get the zoomies even on leash with a professional trainer handling them... Holy Cow! Ask me how I know this...


I want to hear the story!! It will undoubtedly be more hilarious than my imagination! ? ?


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## wellington (Jun 22, 2021)

Tom said:


> Yeah. They are the only dog I know that will get the zoomies even on leash with a professional trainer handling them... Holy Cow! Ask me how I know this...


Did you get clipped at the back of your knees too? I did, boom, and down I went straight backwards. 
My girl ran head first into a cement pillar and kept on going like nothing happened. Their heads are so hard and they are solid muscle. 
They are so funny though, they could make a dead person laugh, cry and scream at the same time lol.


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## mark1 (Jun 23, 2021)

thank you Tom ...... 1989 i went to a guys house to see a puppy , his son answered the door , when he opened the door this dog shot out and was probably 50 yards away when i turned around ..... i bought her puppy , this girl , she was a clone of her mom , most hounds couldn't hang with her .....





my current dogs are 7th generation down off her , all dogs that could run , i ran most all my life , i preferred running with dogs , the ones that could run with me got bred .......... this one , her great grand daughter was one of the better ones , she could and did run for 3hrs non-stop , she threw the best dogs i ever had , or seen.......


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## Tom (Jun 23, 2021)

mark1 said:


> thank you Tom ...... 1989 i went to a guys house to see a puppy , his son answered the door , when he opened the door this dog shot out and was probably 50 yards away when i turned around ..... i bought her puppy , this girl , she was a clone of her mom , most hounds couldn't hang with her .....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Breeding for all the right reasons. I love it.


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