# Confused here



## Dutch-az (Sep 11, 2010)

Being new to this forum and a prospective DT caregiver, I have been reading through the posts. I am now confused.

I live in Arizona, where the state Game & Fish Dept regulates DT's. They can be adopted, one per household, through only a handful of agencies in only desert cities (yes, Arizona also has non-desert areas). They publish fairly specific guidelines on diet, habitat, burrows, etc. 

So what confuses me is all the posts about people having more than one DT, producing hatchlings, taking them out into the yard once a week, feeding them, etc.

As I posted in my intro, we are designing a 20' x 22' habitat for the one we will adopt next summer. The area will be planted with native plants and grasses that are a part of a DT's natural diet. I have G&F's plans for a cinder-block burrow.

I was hoping that in this coming year I can get assistance as we plan along, but I am hoping that I don't end up with more questions than answers.


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## Tom (Sep 11, 2010)

Hello and welcome to the forum. I can clear up some of your confusion very easily. Just because "Big Brother" says so, doesn't mean we all jump to comply. Some of us actually think its a good idea to breed and propagate endangered species and make more of them, in contrast to what the government has decided is best for us and our animals. I learned at a very young age that right and wrong is very different, at times, from legal or illegal.

Your enclosure sounds great and I'm sure you'll be a fantastic care-giver.


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## Kristina (Sep 11, 2010)

As far as producing hatchlings, it is illegal to incubate them. Most people that have pairs are aware of this, and instead of removing the eggs from the ground, they leave them where the female lays them and allow them to incubate naturally. If a hatchling pops out of the ground, well, like Tom said, it is another member of an endangered species and helps to keep them from disappearing completely.

None of us would specifically suggest that you disobey the law. I feel you should do only what you are comfortable with. If that means following it to the letter, then you do what is right for you and your family. I do not condone taking wild tortoises from the wild, but that does not mean that you cannot find other keepers that have hatchlings available, rather than adopting from shelters.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 11, 2010)

Also, the laws vary from state to state. I believe the desert tortoise is found in Calif, Arizona, Nevada, Utah and Mexico. Each state has its own set of rules and regulations regarding the tortoise. Here in Calif. we are allowed as many as we want. It is illegal to artificially incubate the eggs, and our Fish and Game department frowns upon keeping a male/female combination, but they really don't do anything about it. 

I think its a good idea for you to follow the guidelines that you were given. When we (the forum) give out information, it is usually colored by where we are located. Sometimes we forget that folks in other parts of the country or in other countries can't keep their tortoises like we do here in our neck of the woods, due to their weather, laws, etc.

So, you can read our archives and listen to our answers to your questions, but you have to incorporate them or not, into what you have learned from your Arizona fish and game department. For instance, I'll bet its ok for your tortoise to hibernate in the ground in Arizona. That would be ok here too, if you live in the Mojave or Sonoran deserts, but where I live in Central Calif. its way too wet in the winter to allow outdoor hibernation.

So, keep in mind that we are sharing our experiences and opinions here on the forum, but those experiences and opinions might not fit in with where you live and how you are allowed to keep your tortoise. Even so, we're happy to have you here, and I'm sure there is something that we can learn from each other. Keep posting and reading, and be sure to show us your pictures when you get your habitat built.


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## dmmj (Sep 11, 2010)

I don't know about AZ but in answer to your question finleafeater, in CA any California desert tortoise in captivity, either raised, or hatched can not be returned to the wild, so they don't want 10000 hatchlings a year that they need to find homes for.


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## Tom (Sep 11, 2010)

finleafeater said:


> "Here in Calif. we are allowed as many as we want. It is illegal to artificially incubate the eggs, and our Fish and Game department frowns upon keeping a male/female combination, but they really don't do anything about it. "
> 
> I dont mean to hijack this thread or anything, but what the heck? why wouldn't fish and game be excited about people bringing a species back from the brink of extinction? Granted they wouldnt be wild.. but the tortoises have a right to keep on existing as a species. Especially since we're the reason theyre on said brink.



Oh boy, here we go again with the common sense. Young lady, common sense has NO place in our society anymore, especially not in government and the law. What ARE you thinking?


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## armandoarturo (Sep 12, 2010)

In my case..
I live in Mexico, and goverment doesnt really do anything, or has any law for protection of the DTs...
The only thing, is that it is illegal to sell them without a permit.
I dont sell them, or take them from the wild, I usually get them from people who doesnt wants them anymore, or that dont really treat them right, or that dont have suitable home for them, or are injured.
What i do, its go up to those peoples home and ask them If they would give it to me, and after some time show them how healthy and happy they are, and they spread the voice, and sometimes people just stop by my house, and ask me If I want their tortoise.
I currently have 10... I dont like incubating the eggs, I rather let mother nature take care of that, but I do take a lot of care of the nesting area from outside.

I dont really know if Arizona goverment punish people who owns more than 1 DT, and I dont really think they do... but If you really wish to have anotherone, maybe you could spread the word and see IF anyone has an unwanted DT, and would want to give it to you.


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## Dutch-az (Sep 12, 2010)

armandoarturo said:


> ...but If you really wish to have anotherone, maybe you could spread the word and see IF anyone has an unwanted DT, and would want to give it to you.



I don't need another tortoise  We are adopting 2 Red-Eared Slider Turtles for the other part of the garden.


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## armandoarturo (Sep 12, 2010)

oh!! I tought you wanted more haha
Sooo.. you are making a pond or something in the other part of the garden?


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## Dutch-az (Sep 13, 2010)

armandoarturo said:


> oh!! I tought you wanted more haha
> Sooo.. you are making a pond or something in the other part of the garden?



The entire area to be fenced is 20' x 38'. The part next to the house is 20' x 16" and will have a waterfall into a creek into a pond (about 1000 gal total). The larger part is 20' x 22" and has a mature grapefruit tree near the back of it. The burrow will go kind of behind the tree as it is shady there all day (there are 3 more citrus trees in the rest of the backyard). We are building a split-rail fence to divide this area from the rest of the backyard. This will be faced with X-pen panels. X-pen panels will divide the two areas. All the new fencing with have a 12" deep poured cement footing. 

All the plants in both parts are either Arizona natives or xerascape. The plants for the tortoise portion are all from various listings of "favorite" DT food lists. The plants in the turtle/pond part are selected for color & size 

Once the temps drop out of the 100's we will begin the project(s). We are looking at a pond-side completion and turtle adoption in early spring. We hope to have the grasslands-side ready and tortoise adoption by mid-summer (to give him time to settle in before hibernation). 

Doing it in stages as funding becomes available  Right now we only have a garden hose laid out to show the pond & creek and the x-pens up temporarily. I will post photos as we begin to actually do some work!


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## Madkins007 (Sep 13, 2010)

And just as a gentle reminder- this is a public forum that anyone can read, and some states or jurisdictions actually prosecute violations of the Desert Tortoise laws pretty aggressively. 

One reason captive breeding of DTs is not encouraged is that this species is KNOWN to easily carry disease from captivity to the wild population. I have read about an entire wild Desert Tortoise community that was infected with something a released tortoise brought to them with some pretty horrific results.

As a species, we do not seem to learn fast, but we have learned that the best thing for an endangered species is usually not to just breed a bunch of them and let them go.


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