# Hatchling Growth Rates



## Tom (Oct 26, 2012)

Here I go again...  The highly variable growth rates of hatchlings has always perplexed me. There always seem to be some variables from one household to the next, and it's pretty easy to see how the growth of siblings that go to different homes can accelerate or slow down given all the possible differences in care, diet, temps and enclosures. Often though, the difference can't seem to be explained. Many times I have raised multiple tortoises in the same enclosure, with the same diet and routine, but some just grow faster than others. In my case it certainly wasn't lack of hydration. I did notice that some individuals just liked to be in the humid hide box more than others. These individuals always grew faster and smoother. In the past I used open toped enclosures. Even though I humidified the room and covered most of the top, the air in there was pretty dry. It made sense to me that the ones in the humid hide box all the time were losing less water through respiration, and therefore staying a little more hydrated. In that case the tortoises own behavior seemed to be making a difference.

Recently I bought 20 sulcata hatchlings that were roughly two weeks old. I kept 14. My friend kept 6. We had very high hopes and expected nothing but success based on our previous experience with hatchlings. We were using different methods for housing and raising them, but both of our methods had always been successful in the past. Here is where mine are housed:





As time went by both my friend and I started experiencing the same phenomenon. Roughly 1/3 were doing great. Thriving, growing, excelling in every way. Another third were doing okay. Nothing great, but not bad either. The last third were not doing well. Little growth. Not as active, not thriving. The self doubt started immediately, but nothing added up. Even if I was doing something wrong, I knew my friend wasn't. They were only 10-14 days old when we got them. What could have gone wrong in that short of a time? I had two theories. Theory #1: The breeder keeps them dry. He soaks once a week and keeps them on dry hay. Could THAT much damage be done that quickly? And why were some fine and others not? I speculated it had to do with timing. If Monday was soak day, a tortoise that hatched Sat or Sun would get a soak pretty early on. If the tortoise hatched Monday after soaking time was over, or Tuesday, he'd have to wait an entire week under hot lights in a dry room on dry substrate to get his first drink of water into his tiny little body. The spectrum of health we were seeing could be due to the multiple days of the week that they could hatch on in relation to whatever the one soak day a week was. Theory #2: This breeder does not use a brooder box. He lets them hatch and leaves them in the incubator on their vermiculite until they absorb their yolk sac, and then moves them into their dry enclosures. I speculated that they could be impacted. I move my hatchlings to a brooder box with damp paper towels as a substrate as soon as they step out of their egg. I put greens in there with them because they will eat the paper towels if I don't. One friend uses damp wash cloths instead of paper towels for this reason. Still, after a couple of weeks when I finally see their first poop, their is often sparkly flecks of vermiculite in their first couple of BMs. Baby sulcatas eat their nesting substrate and it takes about a week for them to fully absorb their yolk sac. All that time sitting in their incubators, they are eating the substrate. My friend who incubates his leopards in the ground has told me that when they come up, there is nothing but dirt left in those holes. No eggshells, no poop from the mother, no dud eggs, no nothing. There is no doubt that artificially incubated babies are sitting there for a few days and ingesting the incubation medium. I suspected impaction might be the reason for the failure to thrive of some of my new babies.

Three of the 20 died.

Let that sink in for a minute...

In my WHOLE life, even during my "dry" years, I have NEVER lost a hatchling. Neither had my friend.

Another seven of the 20 have hardly grown at all. I decided that finding out what was going on and learning something about what was causing this awful phenomenon for so many people was of the utmost importance. I decided to necropsy two of them. My vet decided to only charge me her cost in the name of advancing science. I told her about my two theories and we paid particular attention to those aspects. The organs were sent off to specialists for examination and evaluation and she went through the digestive tract herself. I've been sitting on the results for a while now. I have shared them with multiple reptile vets and tortoise experts. All conclusions are speculative at best, but everyone has unanimously come to the same conclusions given all the facts.

The GI tracts of both of theses babies were lined with a thick "sandy sludge". I told her they were on course orchid bark or plain planting soil. No sand. No sand ever anywhere. I asked if the "sludge" had shiny flecks in it. She said yes. I asked if it could be vermiculite. Her eyes lit up. Yes. That is what it was. Their entire GI tracts were loaded with broken down semi-digested wet vermiculite dust. I sat on this info and thought about it while we waited for the results from the organ exams. Theory number two seemed to be gaining ground.

The results finally came in from the tissue samples and it was a mixed bag. There were multiple issues. The organs were not healthy and there were secondary bacterial infections taking hold. This muddied the waters a bit. I suspected organ failure due to chronic dehydration as theory number one, but these organs had multiple issues going on. It wasn't simple cell damage due to dehydration. Was theory one still a possibility?

Here is what the experts have all told me in independent discussions: The intestinal obstruction resulted in a lack of nutrition, a weakened immune system and eventually septicemia and bacterial infections of the organs. All speculated the the organ damage and infection was a secondary issue and a direct result of the sludge filled intestinal tract. Some of the tortoises were able to pass the obstructive material through and some were not. Some ate more substrate, some ate less. This could account for the differences in health between the hatchlings.

The results of this were a bit surprising to me. For the last couple of years it has seemed to me that chronic dehydration was the cause of most of these "hatchling failure syndrome" cases. In fact, it now seems that failure to use a brooder box, and the resulting incubation media ingestion, is a more likely cause. Over time, I have become more and more aware of the huge number of breeders who skip this step.

To demonstrate that this is NOT a husbandry issue, here is a picture of the entire enclosure:




It is 4x8x2'. There is a 10" divider in the middle. All 14 of my inconsistent purchased babies were housed on the right hand side. On the left hand side are 6 babies that I hatched myself out of my adults and started from day one. All six of mine are thriving and growing at the same rate as the top third of the other group. Each group gets exactly the same routine, food and conditions. On one side of the divider I have 100% success. On the other side I have only 5 out of 14 thriving. This should make it clear that whatever is going on is a direct result of whatever went on before they came to me.

Looks like we'll have to start asking an additional question of anyone we want to buy a baby tortoise from...


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## pemry3 (Oct 26, 2012)

Thank you for sharing. This is very interesting information and clearly a very crucial element of hatchling husbandry. Again I find this fascinating, and I personally thank you for digging deeper and sharing sharing your findings.


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## LuckysGirl007 (Oct 26, 2012)

Wow! Thanks for taking the time to look into this and share this information with us. Very interesting.


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## wellington (Oct 26, 2012)

WOW, that is great Tom. So glad for your passion and that you have the room and means to put so much into these studies. So, to put in very simple terms. Sulcata hatchlings left in the incubator on the vermiculite after hatching could possibly be sick and die well after the new owner gets them. Do you know how many days yours lived before they finally succumbed to the illness? 
This would probably affect any species that will eat what ever is left in their nest correct? Seems there are a lot of sick RF being purchased lately. However, it doesn't seem like the death rate is as high as the sulcatas. 
Thanks for sharing, you know I love your threads


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## SamB (Oct 26, 2012)

All I can say is W O W! 

Thanks Tom for sharing this info


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## safari_lass1 (Oct 26, 2012)

Such a great post!! Thank you


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## lovelyrosepetal (Oct 26, 2012)

Thanks Tom. This information should be able to help not only the breeders who hatch the babies, but also the owners who buy the babies. It is so sad that so many failed to survive. Will you be able to recoup your losses at all? I am so sorry that you had to go through this experience. While, it is great that you were able to bring this to light, I feel horrible for your loss. It must have made you feel terrible to go through this.


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## mainey34 (Oct 26, 2012)

Definitely a great post. Unfortunately you had to go thru the time and expense of it


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## kanalomele (Oct 27, 2012)

Thanks for your dedication. I think all of us who have hatchlings should pay such close attention.


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## janevicki (Oct 27, 2012)

I also thank you Tom for this information, it is good to know for the future. It saddens me that there where causalties with your purchased sulcata hatchlings, and possible sickness to the remaining ones. Please update us on the status of the remaining sulcata hatchlings.


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## Tom (Oct 27, 2012)

There doesn't appear to be any "sickness" with the remaining ones. None of them were ever sick in the sense of something contagious. They just had a mechanical blockage. The remaining ones are doing excellent. They are growing super healthy and smoothly, and always have been. These one's have never showed any sign of any problem, and that was one of the perplexing things about this group. How could some of them be the most perfect babies I've ever raised, while some of them were doing extremely poorly. They all came from the same place, at the same time, lived in the same enclosure, and were all roughly the same age.

What this has made me think of is all the noobs who get a tortoise from a breeder who does things the way the breeder of these guys does, and the thing just doesn't thrive even though they seem to be doing everything right, and all of us are advising them and trying to help. How frustrating must that be? Meanwhile someone else they know got one from the same source at the same time and there is doing great? The speculation and implications would be obvious, yet totally incorrect. The new keeper would likely be blamed by the breeder and everyone else, when, in fact, they did everything right. Most of these big breeders do not hold back 20 of their hatchlings and raise them for six months just to verify that what they have been doing for decades still "works". Every one of them that I have talked to thinks everything is fine. Yet, when you dig deep enough and ask the right questions, they will tell you all about some of the things that aren't quite right. One guy held back a bunch of captive leopard hatchlings right before the ban on importation went into effect. He told me half of them died and the half that lived are stunted and "extremely pyramided". "Horribly disfigured" even, according to him. Yet when I suggest hydration and a humid hide box would prevent that, he balked. This is one of the largest breeders of tortoises in the whole world. He has the evidence right in front of him, but won't see it. His decades of SETTING the status quo prevent him from learning new thing. Still... I think I may have planted a seed in his head that day when I showed him pics of MY leopards that are just the opposite of horribly disfigured or dead... Time will tell...


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## DeanS (Oct 27, 2012)

Hey Tom! Who's your friend?!?!  I think both theories should be delved deeper into by purchasing one of the trios and incubating the eggs ourselves.


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## mctlong (Oct 27, 2012)

Wow, Tom! You've outdone yourself again! This is fantastic information!


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## DesertGrandma (Oct 27, 2012)

I am totally intrigued by this. As you may remember Tom, I lost my first leopard tort baby that came from a very reputable breeder and never knew for sure what happened. I chalked it up to hatchling failure because I knew in my heart I had done everything "the right way." And since then, I have had success with subsequent hatchlings with no problems. Now I wonder...how often do breeders check their incubators for new hatchlings? If they don't check it every day, and some hatch out only to sit for a few days eating substrate before they are noticed, could your new theory apply? Also, at what age did these hatchlings die, how long until they succumbed? Very good info here Tom. Thank you so much for posting it.


This also makes me wonder about the incubation medium and if there is something more suitable than vermiculite.


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## Neal (Oct 27, 2012)

Good information here, and I think it opens the door to more questions. 

This makes me think of the artificial incubation process as a whole. Of all the hatchlings I have produced, I have lost three despite spot on husbandry with me and the people they eventually went to. With each of my tortoises that were artificially incubated, I remove the eggs after pipping and place them in a container with a paper towel so I can rule out the ingestion of vermiculite. When I compare the hatchlings that were artificially incubated to the ones I left in the ground, the ones in the ground are significantly more active, eat more, their shells harden faster, and overall appear a lot healthier. I think there's still a lot of other "breeder questions" we need to figure out, but your experience certainly sheds light on something I'm sure few others have even considered.


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## Tom (Oct 27, 2012)

I have an idea. We see lots of babies that don't make it here on the forum. This is terribly sad, and some members have left the forum because it saddens them so much. For the owners of these little unfortunate souls, I'm sure it is devastating.

Let's make something positive out of a negative. When we have these deaths, let's spend the money to find out what the state of their GI tract is. Obviously this will be a case by case basis. My vet does this for me at cost, in the name of science. Let's all work together to really study this and find out why so many hatchlings are dying. What we learn with sulcatas will offer some benefit to other species too. I can think of a handful of breeders here on the forum that NEVER lose a single baby. Why are so many dying that come from other breeders? I think impaction from incubation medium AND chronic dehydration are both factors. The ONLY way to find out is to spend the money and do the necropsy. I am willing to pay for this for any one who lives in the Southern CA area and can get their deceased baby to me.

When the cause of death can be determined, the breeder should be contacted and a refund given or a replacement offered. If some of the big breeders are forced to give out dozens of refunds, you can bet they will re-examine their practices and start learning better ways to do things.


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## wellington (Oct 27, 2012)

Neal said:


> Good information here, and I think it opens the door to more questions.
> 
> This makes me think of the artificial incubation process as a whole. Of all the hatchlings I have produced, I have lost three despite spot on husbandry with me and the people they eventually went to. With each of my tortoises that were artificially incubated, I remove the eggs after pipping and place them in a container with a paper towel so I can rule out the ingestion of vermiculite. When I compare the hatchlings that were artificially incubated to the ones I left in the ground, the ones in the ground are significantly more active, eat more, their shells harden faster, and overall appear a lot healthier. I think there's still a lot of other "breeder questions" we need to figure out, but your experience certainly sheds light on something I'm sure few others have even considered.



Could the ones left in the ground be healthier because as Tom has said, about what his friend noticed missing from the nest. Everything. All the shell, poop, everything was gone from the nest. When dogs have puppies, it is a healthy thing to let the mother eat all the sacks and after birth, then she nurses the pups. All the stuff she is eating is for a more nutrient milk for her pups. Maybe that is what the artificial hatched torts are missing. What ever is left in the nest by the mother, if anything, 
but also, the shells, poop, etc.


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## Neal (Oct 27, 2012)

wellington said:


> Could the ones left in the ground be healthier because as Tom has said, about what his friend noticed missing from the nest. Everything. All the shell, poop, everything was gone from the nest. When dogs have puppies, it is a healthy thing to let the mother eat all the sacks and after birth, then she nurses the pups. All the stuff she is eating is for a more nutrient milk for her pups. Maybe that is what the artificial hatched torts are missing. What ever is left in the nest by the mother, if anything,
> but also, the shells, poop, etc.



It could be. The nests that I have seen have still had shell fragments, but not a lot, and my females don't leave poop in the nests. At least, not that I've seen yet.


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## wellington (Oct 27, 2012)

Tom said:


> I have an idea. We see lots of babies that don't make it here on the forum. This is terribly sad, and some members have left the forum because it saddens them so much. For the owners of these little unfortunate souls, I'm sure it is devastating.
> 
> Let's make something positive out of a negative. When we have these deaths, let's spend the money to find out what the state of their GI tract is. Obviously this will be a case by case basis. My vet does this for me at cost, in the name of science. Let's all work together to really study this and find out why so many hatchlings are dying. What we learn with sulcatas will offer some benefit to other species too. I can think of a handful of breeders here on the forum that NEVER lose a single baby. Why are so many dying that come from other breeders? I think impaction from incubation medium AND chronic dehydration are both factors. The ONLY way to find out is to spend the money and do the necropsy. I am willing to pay for this for any one who lives in the Southern CA area and can get their deceased baby to me.
> 
> ...



That would be great Tom. But I doubt most have the extra money to pay for something like that. I know, just to walk into the exotic vets office here in Chicago, it's 95.00. They won't even do a stool sample without a vet visit first. It might be possible, for some of them to print out your threads about the new hatchling syndrome and also this thread and present it to their vet. Maybe they would also get a break, seeing how it would be more of a scientific research thing, rather then just a pet owner wanting to know. Maybe some of the veterinarian members could offer their services for the ones in their area, and possibly, ask some of their vet friends to also participate. Good luck with this great study. I don't wish anyone to loose their new little tort. However, if they do. I sure hope they can and will participate in this.




Neal said:


> wellington said:
> 
> 
> > Could the ones left in the ground be healthier because as Tom has said, about what his friend noticed missing from the nest. Everything. All the shell, poop, everything was gone from the nest. When dogs have puppies, it is a healthy thing to let the mother eat all the sacks and after birth, then she nurses the pups. All the stuff she is eating is for a more nutrient milk for her pups. Maybe that is what the artificial hatched torts are missing. What ever is left in the nest by the mother, if anything,
> ...



I wasn't sure if the poop that was missing from the nest of Toms friend was suppose to be from the mother or the babies? I assumed the babies. However, I have no idea what a female does or deposits when laying.


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## Tom (Oct 27, 2012)

This may be different for different species. I find poop from the mother in every nest I dig up. When I set up my brooder boxes I give them their eggshell (with any vermiculite rinsed off) to nibble one. They always eat at least some of it along with any greens.

My babies that hatched in the ground this year are not any different than my artificially incubated ones. Activity level and appetite are the same. Appearance is a little different due to raising them so differently.


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## Neal (Oct 27, 2012)

It's been a very noticeable difference for me. As I've said before, my hatch rates for AI eggs are very low...less than 20% usually. Whereas the ones left in the ground take about twice as long to hatch out and hatch rates are around 100%. I have wondered how the prolonged incubation process, breaking of diapause, and overall conditions of the nests left in ground have influenced the differences I am seeing.

Even the age and maturity of the mothers I think might come into play as well. I'll be able to study that here in a few months after the first clutch of my female Jenny hatches out.


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## wellington (Oct 27, 2012)

Neal, do you give your AI ones the shells also?


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## Neal (Oct 27, 2012)

Not on purpose, but after they fully emerge from the egg, it usually takes me about a day or so to remove the egg. I've never noticed any egg shells being eaten, but I will purposely be leaving the shells in with them longer the next time around to see if they go for it.


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## wellington (Oct 27, 2012)

Neal said:


> Not on purpose, but after they fully emerge from the egg, it usually takes me about a day or so to remove the egg. I've never noticed any egg shells being eaten, but I will purposely be leaving the shells in with them longer the next time around to see if they go for it.



Good, that's what I was going to ask you to do, if you didn't. Be sure to let's us know if you notice a difference.


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## TortoiseBoy1999 (Oct 27, 2012)

Interesting.......


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## Cowboy_Ken (Oct 27, 2012)

Doesn't anyone use sphagnum moss as a medium anymore?


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## Tom (Oct 27, 2012)

Cowboy_Ken said:


> Doesn't anyone use sphagnum moss as a medium anymore?



Yes they do, but I'm not sure it wouldn't do the same basic thing, and the acidic properties might prematurely break down the shells for some species. Not saying this is the case, just saying it might be.


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## kanalomele (Oct 28, 2012)

I had an AI clutch of Russians this year at 100% hatch rate. The biggest difference i noticed was that i put the incubator in a location that maintained a very stable temp. This helped the incubator do the same. I will be very curious next year to see if the results are similar. These were also some of the most gorgeous vibrant hatchlings i have ever seen from anywhere. 
This was from a large female who has laid successfully for me before and she actually produced a second clutch this year. I will be watching her closely next year. 
I leave the babies in the incubator with their shells for at least a solid 14 days, or until their umbilicus starts shrinking. Some will not leave them entirely but will turn around inside them and eat the albumen and part of the shells. Almost all will nibble on them to one degree or another.


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## Mjdeisher (Oct 28, 2012)

Very interesting! Makes me wonder how much genetics play into how much each hatchling can withstand and how much blockage each can pass. I would bet that the genetically strong are also able to pass the substrate more than the others. How old were the parents, had they produced that year already, were they slow growers? It's obviously not really possible to know all the details, but just an interesting thought. What makes one hatchling able to pass the blockage and others not? 

Awesome research though Tom! You definitely think like a scientist!


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## Tom (Oct 28, 2012)

I don't think genetics plays as much of a part as physics.


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## yagyujubei (Oct 28, 2012)

Do sulcata hatchlings routinely start eating immediately after they hatch?


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## Tom (Oct 28, 2012)

yagyujubei said:


> Do sulcata hatchlings routinely start eating immediately after they hatch?



Mine always have. I discovered this on my very first batch. I was under the mistaken impression that like many snakes and lizards, a recently hatched tortoise does not need or want to eat for a couple of weeks since it is still absorbing and getting nutrition from the yolk sac. I put my first hatchlings into a plastic shoe box on some damp paper towels as was recommended to me to help prevent any problems with the yolk sac drying out, tearing or adhering to anything, and the very first day they were nibbling on the paper towel. I threw in some greens and sure enough they ate them right up even with big yolk sacs protruding from their bellies. One member here won't use paper towels for this reason and uses clean washcloths or dishtowels instead. I find that with the greens and their egg shells, they don't eat the paper towels.


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## yagyujubei (Oct 28, 2012)

What about hatchling leopards? Same thing? My box turtles usually take about three weeks before they will eat anything.


Tom said:


> yagyujubei said:
> 
> 
> > Do sulcata hatchlings routinely start eating immediately after they hatch?
> ...


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## Neal (Oct 28, 2012)

It takes about a week or two before leopards start eating. The earliest I have seen a leopard eat is 3 days after completely hatching.


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## TylerStewart (Oct 29, 2012)

A friend of mine asked me to comment on this thread 

With our sulcatas, I generally leave them in the incubator (in the vermiculite) for at least a few days before removing them. Being in the dark, they sit still and absorb their bellies, where if I take them out, they start running around, dragging this often massive umbilical around (sometimes tearing it on their own feet or each other). I don't have the space (or reason) to house them individually for a week, so I just leave them in the incubator. When I empty the sulcata incubator, I put them immediately in the bath tub and dribble the shower on a low setting so it kinda just splashes on them, and I leave them there literally for 3-5 hours. It cleans them very well and hydrates them fully (pic attached). I can't say I've ever noticed vermiculite in their early droppings, but I can say that the huge majority of them are with me at least several months before they sell, and we lose much less than 1% of baby sulcatas that are here with us (where if impaction was a common thing if they were left in the incubator, you would think we'd be losing much more in the first months with us). I think there's more to the argument that they aren't being hydrated properly in their early weeks leading to failures down the road whether it's liver or kidney or something else deteriorating; moreso than the argument that they're impacted on vermiculite. 

On a second note, I often dig up "in ground" nests and find egg shells. I can't say I've ever pieced an egg back together and that none was eaten, but it certainly wasn't completely gone. I wouldn't be surprised if they munch on it while in the ground, as well as the mom's dropping (the mother pooping on top of the nest seems to happen with sulcatas more than other species). We dug up several in ground nests this year (Greeks, Hermanns, leopards, redfoots, yellowfoots, etc) and I can't think of one that didn't have any egg shells in it, sometimes also a baby or two that didn't get out with the group. Sulcatas we had no babies out of the ground this year, I guess/think I just didn't miss nests (last year we got 100 out of the ground). I almost fell asleep waiting for a leopard to finish laying eggs 2 nights ago and she didn't defecate on top of the eggs before filling it in.


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## Tom (Oct 29, 2012)

So Ty Ty are you saying you think its a combination of eating vermiculite AND dehydration? Maybe yours pass any ingested substrate because of the long soaks and good hydration?

Got any theories about why five of mine are doing great, five are mediocre and 4 didn't do so well? When 6 out of 6 of MY babies right next door in the same enclosure are all doing as perfectly as can be? Got any ideas about why Dean had nearly the exact same ratio as I did with the exact same symptoms?


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## Team Gomberg (Oct 29, 2012)

Having a necropsy done was a smart decision. It gave you facts to use instead of just guesses. 

Thanks for sharing this Tom.


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## TylerStewart (Oct 30, 2012)

Tom said:


> So Ty Ty are you saying you think its a combination of eating vermiculite AND dehydration? Maybe yours pass any ingested substrate because of the long soaks and good hydration?
> 
> Got any theories about why five of mine are doing great, five are mediocre and 4 didn't do so well? When 6 out of 6 of MY babies right next door in the same enclosure are all doing as perfectly as can be? Got any ideas about why Dean had nearly the exact same ratio as I did with the exact same symptoms?



Unfortunately, I don't know why some of yours are doing great and others aren't.... I'm just saying that I don't see a problem with impaction on vermiculite, and mine are left in it for their first 4-7 days from the time the egg cracks. Maybe the initial "flush" I do on them helps soften things up in there, I'm not sure, but we haven't lost a single baby sulcata this year (most of which are now a few months old). We had a few hundred of them this year, all left in the vermiculite early on to absorb their bellies. I know when raising other species, I've had one or two crash for no apparent reason within their first year, all were housed with their siblings who went on to do great. A friend of mine has similar things happen occasionally.... I hate to assume it's just Mother Nature calling them back, but it may be as simple as that. It could all come back to the mom of that particular clutch not having quite enough of this mineral or that vitamin. Some groups of babies seem to just do better than others for whatever reason, all else being the same. I don't usually hold on to sulcatas for very long (no plans to raise up babies), but we do raise many other species for use as future breeders, and some groups grow much faster than others, more bold than others etc.



> Got any ideas about why Dean had nearly the exact same ratio as I did with the exact same symptoms?



If they all came from the same source, it makes sense that they came with whatever the "problem" was, but doesn't really pinpoint the problem.


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## mightymizz (Oct 30, 2012)

Very interesting read so far! Thanks to all who have contributed, and thanks Tom for sharing about the tests.


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## Tom (Oct 30, 2012)

TylerStewart said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > So Ty Ty are you saying you think its a combination of eating vermiculite AND dehydration? Maybe yours pass any ingested substrate because of the long soaks and good hydration?
> ...



My results from the eggs out of my adults are the same as yours, but I think you already knew that. That is why this is such a shock to me. It appears that whatever you are doing works, and it appears that whatever I am doing works, but whatever was done for the first two or three weeks with this batch that I bought is not working for some of them. The 20 babies are all supposed to be selected from several clutches, so several different parents. Granted 20 babies is not enough to conclusively say anything, but the ones that are failing ARE all blocked up with vermiculite. For whatever reason yours are able to pass it, or don't eat it. Mine eat some of it, but they are only on vermiculite a short time, and they all pass what little they have ingested in their first bowel movements, so not an issue for mine. But for whatever reason, it apparently IS an issue for about 2/3 of the 20 two week old babies that I purchased. 7 of the 20 are doing fantastically, don't forget. My 5 big ones are the nicest looking sulcatas I have ever raised and super healthy in every way.

Also worth noting: As soon as mine hatch I remove them and put groups of 6 of them into shoe boxes or spring mix tubs with damp paper towels, some greens and their shells. They stay in there for about a week while their yolk sacs absorb. I have never had a single incident of a damaged yolk sac from the container or any of the other babies nails, or anything else.


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## mercurysmom (Oct 30, 2012)

Tom, you say the tortoises are selected from several different clutches. Is it possible that 5 are from a very healthy sulcata, 5 from a mediocre sulcata and 4 are from a weak sulcata?


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## ALDABRAMAN (Oct 30, 2012)

This thread is fantastic. Tom you are wonderful. I would like to share a recent lengthy conversation i had with a well known respected tortoise breeder here in Florida. Several years back he lost most of his hatchlings, various species including sulcatas. Many developed close to full term and died right before hatching out. Making a very in depth conversation short, his water source being used for his incubation process was straight from the well, untreated other than by a softener. After many test it was concluded that all the deaths were directly due to a type of bacteria that is very common in our water down here in Florida. The hatchlings that did hatch out were very "puffy" and never had a chance.


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## bigbeaks (Oct 30, 2012)

Tom, I was wondering what symptoms did the ones that died and the ones that aren't thriving had / have?


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## Tom (Oct 30, 2012)

mercurysmom said:


> Tom, you say the tortoises are selected from several different clutches. Is it possible that 5 are from a very healthy sulcata, 5 from a mediocre sulcata and 4 are from a weak sulcata?



Yes. This is physically possible. To my knowledge all of the adults are equally well cared for and all healthy. The breeder is very knowledgeable, experienced and competent. I have seen pics of the adults and their enclosures and everything looks great. I have also talked at length with him about the care of his adults. Everything about his care of his adults sounds ideal.

He and I differ in our experiences and opinions of how to start hatchlings, but most people agree on how to care for adults.




ALDABRAMAN said:


> This thread is fantastic. Tom you are wonderful. I would like to share a recent lengthy conversation i had with a well known respected tortoise breeder here in Florida. Several years back he lost most of his hatchlings, various species including sulcatas. Many developed close to full term and died right before hatching out. Making a very in depth conversation short, his water source being used for his incubation process was straight from the well, untreated other than by a softener. After many test it was concluded that all the deaths were directly due to a type of bacteria that is very common in our water down here in Florida. The hatchlings that did hatch out were very "puffy" and never had a chance.



Hmmm...

The breeder suggested this as a possibility too. But my babies are all on city water. I drink it too and so do my babies that are in the same divided enclosure as these babies.




bigbeaks said:


> Tom, I was wondering what symptoms did the ones that died and the ones that aren't thriving had / have?



Little or no growth, general lethargy, lack of appetite or motivation to go over to one of the feeding stations and eat.




ALDABRAMAN said:


> This thread is fantastic. Tom you are wonderful. I would like to share a recent lengthy conversation i had with a well known respected tortoise breeder here in Florida. Several years back he lost most of his hatchlings, various species including sulcatas. Many developed close to full term and died right before hatching out. Making a very in depth conversation short, his water source being used for his incubation process was straight from the well, untreated other than by a softener. After many test it was concluded that all the deaths were directly due to a type of bacteria that is very common in our water down here in Florida. The hatchlings that did hatch out were very "puffy" and never had a chance.



Hmmm...

The breeder suggested this as a possibility too. But my babies are all on city water. I drink it too and so do my babies that are in the same divided enclosure as these babies.


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## bfmorris (Oct 30, 2012)

Tom said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> The breeder suggested this as a possibility too. But my babies are all on city water. I drink it too and so do my babies that are in the same divided enclosure as these babies.



All tortoises, ALL tortoises I own, are given RO water, fwiw. Hard water can play hob on hatchlings in my experience.

Btw, I don't incubate w/ vermiculite. I use dry perlite.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Oct 30, 2012)

I use distilled water during all of our incubation. Never any issues!


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## bigbeaks (Oct 30, 2012)

Tom said:


> mercurysmom said:
> 
> 
> > Tom, you say the tortoises are selected from several different clutches. Is it possible that 5 are from a very healthy sulcata, 5 from a mediocre sulcata and 4 are from a weak sulcata?
> ...








Did they get soft at all or just die?


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## Nerdling (Oct 30, 2012)

This is quite possibly the most interesting thread I have ever read! Absolutely fascinating. I have heard of 'Failure to Thrive' syndrome in hatchling tortoises, but I've never seen it explained and supported with evidence. This explains so much!


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## Tom (Oct 30, 2012)

bfmorris said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm...
> ...



I will call her tomorrow and ask her if the sandy sludge could be broken down perlite. It does crumble down to a sandlike consistency. She said it was "grayish sandy sludge that had a weird consistency and it was lining the most of the GI tract. It was sort of stuck to the intestinal walls..." She really though it was sand and it was my suggestion that it was vermiculite. It cannot be sand since they have never been exposed to any sand whatsoever.

Not to many people use perlite, so I have nothing to compare to. I've always been told not to use any potting soils with perlite in it since they tend to like to eat it. Years ago my wife uprooted a plant that had been planted long ago with soil that had perlite in it. She didn't think anything of it and left the perlite soil exposed. I went over there when I saw a couple of my sulcatas eating something from a distance. They were eating all the perlite pieces out of the newly upturned soil. These were juveniles and it had no apparent effect on them, but I could see how it would for a hatchling.

I'm am open to suggestions from anyone on this. I posted it as a means of sharing info and hopefully learning something new.




bigbeaks said:


> Did they get soft at all or just die?



They never got soft. They just never grew and slowly faded. It was obvious about two or three weeks in, that there was a problem. I assumed the normal dehydration stuff, but necropsy showed otherwise.


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## bfmorris (Oct 30, 2012)

Well, perlite is definitely not shiny, at least. I think the notion of using constant high environmental humidity as a means to control water loss in hatchling sulcata is misplaced. The best place for moisture is _inside_ the tortoise, with the tortoise controlling its moisture loss by barrier means (ie hiding, even under dry grass substrate) and access to sufficiently hydrated (but not too moist) foods. Humidity generally 40- 50 percent. High humidity can be a bacteriological extravaganza. Eye infections, sinus infections, etc.


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## Tom (Oct 30, 2012)

I wish to show you the utmost respect here. My questions and discussion with you here are not to be argumentative with someone who has such a tremendous amount of experience as you do, but to learn from someone who has such a tremendous amount of experience as you do.

It seems that Tyler leaves his on the vermiculite, as you do with the perlite, but his either don't eat it or are able to pass it. I use vermiculite and I know mine eat a little before I can get them off of it, but mine all pass it with no problem. I know of several other sulcata breeders who use vermiculite and experience no problems. I dont know anyone else who uses perlite, I only know the ones I got from you were blocked up with something resembling "grayish sandy sludge". Seems to me like it must be the perlite, since everybody else's are on vermiculite and no one has had any problems with blockages, as Dean and I both have. Dean did not have his in constant high humidity. Dean kept his outside in the hot dry Palmdale air all day long everyday and was putting them on 6" of orchard grass hay at night, at your suggestion. We did not necropsy his, but the symptoms are completely identical to mine. Dean's six never saw any humidity as mine did. We stopped at his place on the way home from your place. His six came out of the box you gave us, and my 14 came home with me and into my enclosure.

I have heard all the arguments against humidity and/or hydration, but none of them have ever materialized for me. I have had 100% success with every baby of every species that I have tried it with. Wouldn't I have seen some instance of bacteriological problems, sinus infections, shell rot, respiratory infection or something? Instead, I grow beautiful, smooth super healthy tortoises every single time. The five I got from you that aren't impacted and are doing well are truly the healthiest, best looking sulcatas I have ever raised. Right next to them in the same divided enclosure I held back six of my own hatchlings. These were pipping as Dean and I were driving out to your place. I decided to raise them side by side with the ones we got from you because we thought it would be a neat comparison to watch growth rates since the Sudans will turn out to be such giants. Since day one ALL things were done identically with the two groups, but the Sudans had a two or three week head start. If the high humidity is such a potential problem, how come all six of my hatchlings grew and developed totally normally and on the same par as the five healthy ones that came from you? Not a single one has had any problem whatsoever. There are pictures of them on other threads here on the forum. Their weights have been recorded and it's clear that they are healthy. The older three from my holdbacks are just reaching 300 grams. The five healthy ones I got from you, reached 300 around two or three weeks ago. No tortoise is going to go from 35 to 300 grams in five months if they are sick, fighting bacterial infections or in any sort of unhealthy conditions. Am I wrong here? Sick tortoises, or tortoises kept in unhealthy conditions don't grow much according to what I've seen.

Clearly I was wrong about them being impacted with vermiculite. That was incorrect speculation on my part, since you don't use vermiculite. They WERE impacted with something that in hind sight must be perlite, since I have only kept them on coarse orchid bark. Believe me I have given this a lot of thought. I expected them all to thrive as all of my hatchlings do. As their cage mates did. I was terribly saddened when this did not happen. I spent hundreds of dollars on vet bills and diagnostics just to find out what was going on. I would really like to learn anything you have to offer, but I'll need you to help me add it all up, so that it all makes sense. You can't say it's humidity when very single leopard and sulcata that I have done the high humidity thing with is thriving and growing smoothly. Going back all the way to Daisy, who was my first guinea pig starting in 2008, through my "End of Pyramiding" babies, through my leopards in 2010, through my current six holdbacks which are the best yet due to the closed chamber vs. the old open topped enclosures I was using in years past. The lives of all of these tortoises have been chronicled here on the forum and every single one of them is healthy and thriving. Even if you wish to disregard my tortoises, there are literally hundreds of people doing the same thing here on the forum, and their tortoises are showing the same results as mine. The only time we see sick tortoises is new people who come on with an already existing problem, usually due to chronic hatchling dehydration, or people who take bits and pieces from different care sheets and let their tortoises get too cool with the humidity.

If the problem is not due to perlite impaction from their first two weeks, then please explain what else it could be. Given all the factors, its the only thing that makes sense to me so far. My mind is totally open. I don't care if I'm right. I care about learning from this one way or another.


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## Arizona Sulcata (Oct 30, 2012)

Hey Tom I don't know if this helps at all but here's my experience... I use vermiculite but as soon as their little nose pops through the shell I move the egg into a brooder box. They have zero access to the vermiculite. Once hatched in the brooder box I move them to a second stage of brooder box, same thing but clean. They stay here till their sac is absorbed enough to where I feel comfortable with them in substrate. I do this for all my tortoises and they flourish magnificently and grow quite fast!

Now a while ago I was checking in my incubator and to my surprise a whole clutch had hatched without me knowing (must have miscounted the days on my calendar) and they were all in the virmiculite. I suspect they were there for at least a week for them to have all hatched. Their sacs had already sealed and everything. I still put them into a brooder box for a couple days. Now these hatchlings although still healthy, did not flourish nearly as much as the others all have. They have had much much slower growth rates. 

Don't know if that helps any but I thought I'd throw it out there! Sounds like I did the same experiment as you but on accident... Haha

PS no deaths and none seem to be struggling. Just significantly slower growth rates.


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## Baoh (Oct 31, 2012)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> This thread is fantastic. Tom you are wonderful. I would like to share a recent lengthy conversation i had with a well known respected tortoise breeder here in Florida. Several years back he lost most of his hatchlings, various species including sulcatas. Many developed close to full term and died right before hatching out. Making a very in depth conversation short, his water source being used for his incubation process was straight from the well, untreated other than by a softener. After many test it was concluded that all the deaths were directly due to a type of bacteria that is very common in our water down here in Florida. The hatchlings that did hatch out were very "puffy" and never had a chance.



That happened recently to a significant breeder in FL, too. I feel quite bad for him. Pseudomonas, I believe, in his case.


There is a ton of of inductive drive in this thread surrounding a true sample size of two (necropsied) animals (making broader conclusions based on a small number is considered scientifically irresponsible) and associated & assumed root causes for observations surrounding those two and others, but I do appreciate all of the details shared as they are believed to be.


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## Baoh (Oct 31, 2012)

Since this effectively is implicitly calling Brad into some degree of whatever this is, I should mention I bought twenty babies from Brad. One came with a little hiccup (congenital ocular issue), but was born with it and it was simply overlooked (and Brad graciously took care of the situation). The rest, simply put, have been doing all of fantastic. No deaths. No stunting.

I resold them piecemeal after months went by and I have kept in loose contact with most of the new owners. No deaths. No stunting. I retained some as holdbacks for my own purposes, which is why I bought the original group of twenty, up until relatively recently. Since I was able to acquire one of Brad's awesome and beastly adult females, I was able to let even those holdbacks go. Among the holdbacks, the scls ranged from just over 3.5" (with the highest dome of any in the group) to a bit over 4.5" (the longest and was very masculine in head and overall structure). Individual differences, of course, but no deaths and no stunting. All fed readily. Some (many) ate more than my Aldabra (and "she" eats a lot) at much smaller comparative body masses. If there was a problem, it was not showing up at my place, so I believe the animals I received were in excellent internal condition. They only crapped out crap. No perlite. No vermiculite. No sand. No gold. No razor blades. I am very pleased with my transactions with Brad and more than satisfied with the animals he has sent me on multiple occasions now.

I have no problem with the higher ambient humidity methods and often allow a very humid ambient area to exist in some of my enclosures for smaller animals. This area is no larger than a quarter of any of my enclosures by happenstance. However, rather than shoot for air saturation in most of my enclosures, my overall tendency is to provide a substrate with a thick and moist subterranean layer beneath a thin to moderately thick and totally dry surface layer. I occasionally wet down the surface layer (once a week to once every two weeks; it dries within a day or two). When outside, I let them dig beneath tussocks and plant root balls, just like I have observed hatchling and small juvenile tortoises engaging in the practice of in several parts of the world in nature. Different strokes for different folks.

I have side question for Tom, since I am curious. Why were your ivories returned to Fife?


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## Tom (Oct 31, 2012)

Baoh said:


> Since this effectively is implicitly calling Brad into some degree of whatever this is, I should mention I bought twenty babies from Brad. One came with a little hiccup (congenital ocular issue), but was born with it and it was simply overlooked (and Brad graciously took care of the situation). The rest, simply put, have been doing all of fantastic. No deaths. No stunting.
> 
> I resold them piecemeal after months went by and I have kept in loose contact with most of the new owners. No deaths. No stunting. I retained some as holdbacks for my own purposes, which is why I bought the original group of twenty, up until relatively recently. Since I was able to acquire one of Brad's awesome and beastly adult females, I was able to let even those holdbacks go. Among the holdbacks, the scls ranged from just over 3.5" (with the highest dome of any in the group) to a bit over 4.5" (the longest and was very masculine in head and overall structure). Individual differences, of course, but no deaths and no stunting. All fed readily. Some (many) ate more than my Aldabra (and "she" eats a lot) at much smaller comparative body masses. If there was a problem, it was not showing up at my place, so I believe the animals I received were in excellent internal condition. They only crapped out crap. No perlite. No vermiculite. No sand. No gold. No razor blades. I am very pleased with my transactions with Brad and more than satisfied with the animals he has sent me on multiple occasions now.
> 
> I have no problem with the higher ambient humidity methods and often allow a very humid ambient area to exist in some of my enclosures for smaller animals. This area is no larger than a quarter of any of my enclosures by happenstance. However, rather than shoot for air saturation in most of my enclosures, my overall tendency is to provide a substrate with a thick and moist subterranean layer beneath a thin to moderately thick and totally dry surface layer. I occasionally wet down the surface layer (once a week to once every two weeks; it dries within a day or two). When outside, I let them dig beneath tussocks and plant root balls, just like I have observed hatchling and small juvenile tortoises engaging in the practice of in several parts of the world in nature. Different strokes for different folks.



Again your tone and choice of words is insulting. Your sarcasm and snotty tone helps no one.

Its wonderful that your purchases from Brad all did well. Mine and Dean's did not. Your cleverly hidden stand against my way of keeping them does not explain why the same ratio of mine and Deans both failed despite vastly different methods of keeping. All 20 of ours only crapped crap, coincidentally too. No razor blades, sand or incubation medium here either, but thanks anyway for the implications...

I too let mine dig into tussocks and root balls when outside, what does this have to do with anything?

If my method of keeping them were somehow faulty, as you so subtly wish to imply, why do 100% of all the tortoises that I hatch and raise with these methods thrive? THIS is why I am so glad that I did the control group, just on the other side of a divider in the same enclosure. 

The ivories are irrelevant to this discussion. I have chosen not to speak publicly about what Fife did. If you wish to know, ask him. Privately.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Oct 31, 2012)

Baoh said:


> ALDABRAMAN said:
> 
> 
> > This thread is fantastic. Tom you are wonderful. I would like to share a recent lengthy conversation i had with a well known respected tortoise breeder here in Florida. Several years back he lost most of his hatchlings, various species including sulcatas. Many developed close to full term and died right before hatching out. Making a very in depth conversation short, his water source being used for his incubation process was straight from the well, untreated other than by a softener. After many test it was concluded that all the deaths were directly due to a type of bacteria that is very common in our water down here in Florida. The hatchlings that did hatch out were very "puffy" and never had a chance.
> ...





I think we are probably referring to the same person, same exact issue!


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## DeanS (Oct 31, 2012)

Tom said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> > Since this effectively is implicitly calling Brad into some degree of whatever this is, I should mention I bought twenty babies from Brad. One came with a little hiccup (congenital ocular issue), but was born with it and it was simply overlooked (and Brad graciously took care of the situation). The rest, simply put, have been doing all of fantastic. No deaths. No stunting.
> ...



Tom...some people just don't get it! But let me clarify one thing here. I left the babies in a controlled outdoor environment...until Pineapple died. They spent one hour in the morning (8AM-9AM) and one hour in the evening (7PM-8PM) in the hay...so they could nibble and burrow which they did with relish! From 8PM to 8AM, they were on moistened coconut bark/coco coir...80-90F and 50-60% humidity!


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## DesertGrandma (Oct 31, 2012)

Opinions please...
The baby leopard I had that died pooped out quite a bit of some whitish stuff on the first day or two after I got her. Reading on the forum that "urates" are normal I didn't worry about it. She was about two months of age. She wouldn't eat and didn't poop for the entire time I had her. I took her to the vet and had her euthanized apprx. 6-8 weeks later because she was beyond saving. She was soaked every day, kept in a warm, humid environment and offered a variety of healthy foods. Now, since then I have had several leopard babies, given them all the same care and they are all thriving. None have every pooped out "urates."
Do you see this as possible vermiculite problem?


I have to admit that being new I wouldn't have known the difference between "urates" and vermiculite in the poop.


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## EricIvins (Oct 31, 2012)

DesertGrandma said:


> Opinions please...
> The baby leopard I had that died pooped out quite a bit of some whitish stuff on the first day or two after I got her. Reading on the forum that "urates" are normal I didn't worry about it. She was about two months of age. She wouldn't eat and didn't poop for the entire time I had her. I took her to the vet and had her euthanized apprx. 6-8 weeks later because she was beyond saving. She was soaked every day, kept in a warm, humid environment and offered a variety of healthy foods. Now, since then I have had several leopard babies, given them all the same care and they are all thriving. None have every pooped out "urates."
> Do you see this as possible vermiculite problem?
> 
> ...





Urates are completely normal. They are a product of Uric Acid in the body. Excessive amounts or none at all would be cause for concern.....

Urates look nothing like Vermiculite though......


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## Baoh (Oct 31, 2012)

Tom said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> > Since this effectively is implicitly calling Brad into some degree of whatever this is, I should mention I bought twenty babies from Brad. One came with a little hiccup (congenital ocular issue), but was born with it and it was simply overlooked (and Brad graciously took care of the situation). The rest, simply put, have been doing all of fantastic. No deaths. No stunting.
> ...



Your ad hominem modus operandi aside, you must be ignoring the fact that I stated I have no problem with higher ambient humidity methods in your whatever-it-is-you-are-doing. 

Digging into humid microclimates is another means of providing ambient moisture. That is what it has to do with anything.

Regarding your control group, there is more to care than a cage. If you say that you maintain them equivalently, I have nothing to say otherwise. I am only going by what you have put forth, whether it is factual, wholly detail inclusive, or not. Twenty animals which came here from the same breeder are alive (including one with a physical disadvantage). Less than twenty of yours combined between yours and Dean's are alive. I doubt I am doing anything especially wonderful. I doubt the breeder picked out bulletproof animals to send to me.

I do not know that the situation with the ivories is not relevant without the provision of details. For all that has been shared, this could be some kind of repetitive theme, which is why I asked in the hope that you would clarify with details.




ALDABRAMAN said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> > ALDABRAMAN said:
> ...





Quite possibly. I feel terribly for him. It was a massive loss, both in terms of living creatures and income.




DesertGrandma said:


> Opinions please...
> The baby leopard I had that died pooped out quite a bit of some whitish stuff on the first day or two after I got her. Reading on the forum that "urates" are normal I didn't worry about it. She was about two months of age. She wouldn't eat and didn't poop for the entire time I had her. I took her to the vet and had her euthanized apprx. 6-8 weeks later because she was beyond saving. She was soaked every day, kept in a warm, humid environment and offered a variety of healthy foods. Now, since then I have had several leopard babies, given them all the same care and they are all thriving. None have every pooped out "urates."
> Do you see this as possible vermiculite problem?
> 
> ...





Urates and vermiculate have completely different appearances.


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## Neal (Oct 31, 2012)

DesertGrandma said:


> Opinions please...
> The baby leopard I had that died pooped out quite a bit of some whitish stuff on the first day or two after I got her. Reading on the forum that "urates" are normal I didn't worry about it. She was about two months of age. She wouldn't eat and didn't poop for the entire time I had her. I took her to the vet and had her euthanized apprx. 6-8 weeks later because she was beyond saving. She was soaked every day, kept in a warm, humid environment and offered a variety of healthy foods. Now, since then I have had several leopard babies, given them all the same care and they are all thriving. None have every pooped out "urates."
> Do you see this as possible vermiculite problem?
> 
> ...





It was more than likely just urates. Any idea on how the breeder housed the tortoise for those two months before you had her? Are you aware of the status of any of her clutch mates?


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## DesertGrandma (Oct 31, 2012)

It was more than likely just urates. Any idea on how the breeder housed the tortoise for those two months before you had her? Are you aware of the status of any of her clutch mates?


No, I am not aware. Just grasping at straws I guess, still looking for an answer.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 31, 2012)

Since urates form because of retained water for long periods of time, I would have to assume that a hatchling would not have urates. They haven't been alive long enough for urates to build up. I'm going with substrate blockage.


This is a very informative thread and I'd hate to see it get taken off topic or get derailed by hurt feelings. Please try to stay polite and avoid any name calling.


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## DesertGrandma (Oct 31, 2012)

@ Yvonne Since urates form because of retained water for long periods of time, I would have to assume that a hatchling would not have urates. They haven't been alive long enough for urates to build up. I'm going with substrate blockage.

Sure wish the vet had offered to do a necropsy. He said there were so many issues he didn't know the cause without doing a lot of tests ($250) ouch. Even at that I had to pay for the vet visit and euthanasia.


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## Baoh (Oct 31, 2012)

emysemys said:


> Since urates form because of retained water for long periods of time, I would have to assume that a hatchling would not have urates. They haven't been alive long enough for urates to build up. I'm going with substrate blockage.
> 
> 
> This is a very informative thread and I'd hate to see it get taken off topic or get derailed by hurt feelings. Please try to stay polite and avoid any name calling.





Since they (urates) are nitrogenous excreta, they can start forming and building up as soon as an animal has functioning kidneys and they have functioning kidneys at some point well before they hatch. I have seen week-old Testudo hatchlings pass urates, but they hatched in nature and the Summers are rather dry in that areas I witnessed this in.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Oct 31, 2012)

Baoh said:


> I have no problem with the *higher ambient humidity* methods and often allow a very humid ambient area to exist in some of my enclosures for smaller animals. This area is no larger than a quarter of any of my enclosures by happenstance. However, rather than shoot for air saturation in most of my enclosures, my overall tendency is to provide a substrate with a thick and moist subterranean layer beneath a thin to moderately thick and totally dry surface layer.



Boah, do you think that it is possible that pyramiding could be a direct result with a tortoises lack of hydration? And if not, can you explain how ambient humidity directly effects the shell growth? Here is the premises for my question, none of our aldabras ever pyramid. Naturally we have great humidity here in Florida and that is never a factor. We hydrate and provide a natural diet. What i have noticed from many personal observations is when our hatchlings are relocated they seem to pyramid when they are provided a rich diet and grow very fast. When they are fed a more natural diet and grow at a slower rate they tend to not pyramid. Provided that all tortoises are well hydrated and humidity is the same, any theory as to why the difference if all factors are the same except the food sources? I know this is a highly controversial topic, i have always struggled with an aldabra that was started so smooth and immediately start to pyramid as soon as the food sources change, providing all other elements are similar. I would really like to hear your perspective, thank you.

p.s. Anyone else have a scientific answer please feel free to comment.


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## Eweezyfosheezy (Nov 1, 2012)

Greg, how do you keep your hatchlings throughout Winter? 


Here is my take on pyramiding.

I think hydration is the KEY to pyramiding. Humidity will help the tortoise stay hydrated, but humidity by itself will not keep a tortoise smooth. From what I have seen over the years is that tortoises raised inside under basking lights pyramid far more than any tortoise raised outside in the same humidity. I think it is the basking lights that dehydrate our tortoises so quickly and makes them pyramid at the blink of an eye. When my babies of any species are outside they are rarely if ever in direct sunlight, but when kept inside they are under their basking bulbs for hours every day which dehydrates them very quickly which will in turn make them pyramid if not given enough water to replenish themselves.


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## wellington (Nov 1, 2012)

Eweezyfosheezy said:


> Greg, how do you keep your hatchlings throughout Winter?
> 
> 
> Here is my take on pyramiding.
> ...




A good experiment for this would be to raise some inside with a fluorescent UVB and use a heater for warmth and only a CHE off to one side or in a separate attached tub for basking,if even needed, but still using the higher humidity. I only have one 21 month old leopard, so not much experience here. However, I observe the same with my Leo as you when he is outside. Usually hiding under something in the heat of the day and the sun is the brightest and hottest. When there is more shade in his enclosure, without having to hide under something to get it, he is out and about 
more. I also have never seen my leopard bask under the mvb, only off to the side of it and never for long.


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## Baoh (Nov 1, 2012)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> > I have no problem with the *higher ambient humidity* methods and often allow a very humid ambient area to exist in some of my enclosures for smaller animals. This area is no larger than a quarter of any of my enclosures by happenstance. However, rather than shoot for air saturation in most of my enclosures, my overall tendency is to provide a substrate with a thick and moist subterranean layer beneath a thin to moderately thick and totally dry surface layer.
> ...



My Aldabras are raised on a rich diet (like many of my animals). No significant pyramiding is taking place. There is a crappy photo in my thread. I will take a better one tonight to post to show a better angle.

I think hydration is important because it allows for the proper metabolism of everything, calcium included. I think humidity is important because bone conforms to Wolff's Law, and keratin is more flexible when hydrated (think fingernails). The tension placed on bone is reduced if the keratin of scutes is hydrated and therefore more flexible. This also reduces acute angles of pull (a geometric matter).

So internal and external factors are important. Nutritionally, adequate protein AND adequate minerals are important to provide substrate materials for the proper generation of overlying keratin and underlying bone.

To me, it is not one thing and these several factors are acting in concert. No secrets or any one key, but some factors are likely more important in terms of proportion. What that balance is is anyone's guess without serious DOE work with a lot of data.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 1, 2012)

I just realized that this is in the debatable topics forum.


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## TortoiseBoy1999 (Nov 1, 2012)

emysemys said:


> I just realized that this is in the debatable topics forum.



I don't think it was before????


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## DesertGrandma (Nov 1, 2012)

Greg, when you talk about a "rich" diet, are you referring to Mazuri, or something else? Just trying to understand everyone's comments. Thanks.


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## Baoh (Nov 1, 2012)

Greg, I put some new photos up in my photo thread to show you what one of my animals looks like that has been raised with a rather rich diet (Unlimited graze of select planted turnip greens with a little bit of weeds and grasses during the Summer; Mazuri daily and high energy density plant foods such as avocado three or more times a week during the colder months). Before I sold off my other Aldabras, they had comparable growth quality. This one was my smallest and highest domed when I bought several to drive unit price down and hedge my bets on survival before I had any Aldabra experience, so I kept "her" (no real idea as to its actual sex) as my future family pet and dinosaur pony and sold the rest after everything ended up going great.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Nov 1, 2012)

Eweezyfosheezy said:


> Greg, how do you keep your hatchlings throughout Winter?
> 
> 
> Here is my take on pyramiding.
> ...



* All of are hatchlings are kept outside in natural elements unless it is below 70f. Many days the day temps are good and we bring them inside for the cooler nights.



DesertGrandma said:


> Greg, when you talk about a "rich" diet, are you referring to Mazuri, or something else? Just trying to understand everyone's comments. Thanks.



* My reference was basically meaning a high volume of fruit and commercial feeds.


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## jtrux (Nov 1, 2012)

DesertGrandma said:


> Greg, when you talk about a "rich" diet, are you referring to Mazuri, or something else? Just trying to understand everyone's comments. Thanks.



Same here, curious as to what is considered rich?


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## volcom6981 (Nov 12, 2012)

Very good topic here, and im now wondering if this why my hachling passed away. I could never figure out what i did wrong, i thought all my temps were in order, i am just so confused.

As far as bringing in your toroise for the winter, which i have to do, what is the best lighting/heating set-up. Does anybody use just a CHE, with tube type UVB. Or is it best to use a MVB, or a house hold bulb, with tube UVB. Just seems like there are so many options i often wonder what is best for those who cant have there tortoises out year round?


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## bigbeaks (Nov 12, 2012)

volcom6981 said:


> Very good topic here, and im now wondering if this why my hachling passed away. I could never figure out what i did wrong, i thought all my temps were in order, i am just so confused.
> 
> As far as bringing in your toroise for the winter, which i have to do, what is the best lighting/heating set-up. Does anybody use just a CHE, with tube type UVB. Or is it best to use a MVB, or a house hold bulb, with tube UVB. Just seems like there are so many options i often wonder what is best for those who cant have there tortoises out year round?



I use both, fluorescent UVB with CHE and mercury vapors with my babies and see no differences in them other then some small hatchlings seem to have a little eye sensitivity to the mercury vapor.


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## Tom (Nov 12, 2012)

volcom6981 said:


> Very good topic here, and im now wondering if this why my hachling passed away. I could never figure out what i did wrong, i thought all my temps were in order, i am just so confused.
> 
> As far as bringing in your toroise for the winter, which i have to do, what is the best lighting/heating set-up. Does anybody use just a CHE, with tube type UVB. Or is it best to use a MVB, or a house hold bulb, with tube UVB. Just seems like there are so many options i often wonder what is best for those who cant have there tortoises out year round?




Only a necropsy will tell you for sure what happened to your hatchling. The two most likely causes that I have seen are impaction and chronic dehydration.

Everyone has a different preference for what to do in winter. I like to use a CHE on a thermostat for ambient temp maintenance, a florescent tube for light and/or UV, and an incandescent flood bulb for basking. The combo of all three suits me the best.


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## volcom6981 (Nov 12, 2012)

Tom said:


> volcom6981 said:
> 
> 
> > Very good topic here, and im now wondering if this why my hachling passed away. I could never figure out what i did wrong, i thought all my temps were in order, i am just so confused.
> ...



Yea i dont know i didnt get a necropsy, he just died tonight after getting a boost shot at the vet. It did seem like a dehydration problem, but i couldnt understand why because it was between 60-80% humid in the enclosure with a 80% or a little higher humid hide. He was great all summer, now i only got him in July he was very young only a couple weeks, but October rolled around and it went all down hill.

As far as lights thats what i do a CHE for heat, a house hold bulb for UV, and 2 UVB tube bulbs, for the hachlings.




bigbeaks said:


> volcom6981 said:
> 
> 
> > Very good topic here, and im now wondering if this why my hachling passed away. I could never figure out what i did wrong, i thought all my temps were in order, i am just so confused.
> ...



Thats what always worried me about the MVB for hachlings is hurting there eyes. Also if they bask under the MVB bulb for too long i would imagaine they would dehidrate much faster.


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## mightymizz (Nov 12, 2012)

You mention a "boost shot". I have a feeling that not many people like their torts to get these types of shots if it was the vitamin A type.


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## volcom6981 (Nov 13, 2012)

mightymizz said:


> You mention a "boost shot". I have a feeling that not many people like their torts to get these types of shots if it was the vitamin A type.



Yea I don't like them either now. I thought it was going to be a vitamin D shot, and it ended being A&D shot with calcium.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Nov 16, 2012)

Thanks, Tom...you're an educational guy to know! 




wellington said:


> Neal said:
> 
> 
> > Good information here, and I think it opens the door to more questions.
> ...



That's some thought provoking info!


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## Neal (Nov 18, 2012)

Tom said:


> ...The highly variable growth rates of hatchlings has always perplexed me. There always seem to be some variables from one household to the next, and it's pretty easy to see how the growth of siblings that go to different homes can accelerate or slow down given all the possible differences in care, diet, temps and enclosures. Often though, the difference can't seem to be explained....



Well, I don't know about you Tom but after the conference my head has been filled with all sorts of ideas to play around with related to this topic. I think we'll all have some good conversations in the near future and hopefully we'll all learn some good stuff.


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## Tom (Nov 18, 2012)

I look forward to learning more too. What I'd really like is to get you out here to see my place. That will REALLY fill your head with some stuff... Lots of stuff I'd like to show you.


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## laura13617 (Nov 18, 2012)

Great post Tom.. thank you)


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