# PETA



## Ben02 (Jun 30, 2019)

What do the wise people of the TFO think about PETA?

This is a friendly discussion so please share your different opinions and views.


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## Michael231 (Jun 30, 2019)

Hey @Ben02

This is a cool thread, because I think it will provide a platform for a peaceful discussion! Too often when people talk about PETA their differing views lead to arguments! 

Personally, I think PETA has done some good, they have changed a lot of things that have needed changing. However, I think sometimes they might be a little fast to act. 

For instance, at a lab near where I live, the researchers were keeping two dogs in a large pen outside that had nothing to do with their experiments. They were solely pets of one of the technicians who didn’t have a place to keep them at the time. However, supposedly PETA came and stole the dogs and hurt them in some way to publicize the fact that this lab was torturing them, even though from what I’ve heard they were just someone’s pets. 

Now this was 15-20 years ago, so I’m not entirely sure this story is 100% the truth, as it seems to have been passed down, but regardless someone seems to have had an extreme run in with PETA that seems like it could have been avoided. 

Also, on the monkey case which sort of started up the organization to my knowledge, I personally believe that was a good thing to do, as those monkeys were being mistreated to my knowledge.

I’m curious what others have to say, as the field on this one seems to be pretty different...


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## Ben02 (Jun 30, 2019)

Michael231 said:


> Hey @Ben02
> 
> This is a cool thread, because I think it will provide a platform for a peaceful discussion! Too often when people talk about PETA their differing views lead to arguments!
> 
> ...


I do agree that they do some great things. I watched a couple videos recently where they had an “insider” working at petco and he recorded and documented some of the conditions and sicknesses these animals had to deal with. I assume something was done about this particular petco but not a lot of detail was given about that.

After a bit of digging I came across a certain opinion several times, especially on their social media accounts which feature very graphic and extreme images and clips. These people claimed that PETA killed most of the animals they confiscated. This is a bold statement however it shouldn’t be completely disregarded. I’m looking forward to what other people have to say about this matter.


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## Maro2Bear (Jun 30, 2019)

A search here on TFO shows ten or pages of PETA “discussion”.

Where’s @Tom - I’m pretty sure he has a firm opinion on this issue.


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## Tom (Jun 30, 2019)

There is nothing friendly about PETA or any other animal rights group. They are villains, and if you are a pet keeper or meat eater, they are your enemy whether you realize it or not. They lie, cheat and steal, literally, to further their political agenda and shut people like us down. They intentionally create falsehoods to emotionally manipulate people into supporting them both verbally and financially. The FBI lists them as a "Terrorist Organization". That is not a joke. Look it up.

Understand the difference between an "Animal Welfare" group, and and "Animal Rights" group. Be very careful and very particular about which one you support.

Animal Welfare groups want to see animals cared for correctly and treated humanely. They are kind people who want to see animals treated with respect and dignity, but still think it is okay to eat a cheeseburger or a turkey dinner. They don't kill shelter animals and they don't want us banned from owning pets or eating fish and chips. They don't make fake videos and lie to the public in order to separate gullible people from their money for their own nefarious purposes.

Animal Rights groups on the other had think pet ownership is akin to human slavery. Your pet tortoise is animal slavery to them, and you are evil for doing it. That cheeseburger was a living animal that had the same rights as you. Eating that cow is the same to them as eating your next door neighbor. The ants invading your kitchen have the same rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness as every human you've ever known. The PETA shelter has a 98% kill rate. Higher than any county shelter in the country, because to them death is better than living as someone's pet/slave. Breeding endangered species? That is nothing more than human exploitation to them. Make no mistake: These people are fringe radicals and they need your help to succeed. They pretend to care about the animals and act all nice to get you to donate to their cause, but they are literally criminals and frauds. LITERALLY.

Want to learn more about who your friends or enemies are? Go to https://usark.org

Don't fall for it people. PETA and HSUS are NOT out friends and they are not friends of animals.


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## Ben02 (Jun 30, 2019)

Tom said:


> There is nothing friendly about PETA or any other animal rights group. They are villains, and if you are a pet keeper or meat eater, they are your enemy whether you realize it or not. They lie, cheat and steal, literally, to further their political agenda and shut people like us down. They intentionally create falsehoods to emotionally manipulate people into supporting them both verbally and financially. The FBI lists them as a "Terrorist Organization". That is not a joke. Look it up.
> 
> Understand the difference between an "Animal Welfare" group, and and "Animal Rights" group. Be very careful and very particular about which one you support.
> 
> ...


Wow I did not know that they were listed as a terrorist organisation! It makes sense now as they post horrible videos on all social media platforms. 

One question for you Tom, why is this allowed to happen? How are they able to do what they do? 

Thank you for you opinion aswell Tom, this is really helpful to me as I’m still creating a view of my own.


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## Billna the 2 (Jun 30, 2019)

Tom said:


> There is nothing friendly about PETA or any other animal rights group. They are villains, and if you are a pet keeper or meat eater, they are your enemy whether you realize it or not. They lie, cheat and steal, literally, to further their political agenda and shut people like us down. They intentionally create falsehoods to emotionally manipulate people into supporting them both verbally and financially. The FBI lists them as a "Terrorist Organization". That is not a joke. Look it up.
> 
> Understand the difference between an "Animal Welfare" group, and and "Animal Rights" group. Be very careful and very particular about which one you support.
> 
> ...


I agree with Tom 100+, PETA is very over it.


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## wellington (Jun 30, 2019)

I was a supporter and believer in PETA until I Tom explained things too me. I didnt just take his word, even though his word is good, and did some of my own research. 
I no longer support PETA and try to turn people away from supporting or defending them. 
Do some research on your own about them. You will be heart broken that you ever supported them.


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## Maro2Bear (Jun 30, 2019)

Ben02 said:


> Wow I did not know that they were listed as a terrorist organisation! It makes sense now as they post horrible videos on all social media platforms.
> 
> One question for you Tom, why is this allowed to happen? How are they able to do what they do?
> 
> Thank you for you opinion aswell Tom, this is really helpful to me as I’m still creating a view of my own.



One reason - “Freedom of Speech” ....


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## Michael231 (Jun 30, 2019)

Tom said:


> There is nothing friendly about PETA or any other animal rights group. They are villains, and if you are a pet keeper or meat eater, they are your enemy whether you realize it or not. They lie, cheat and steal, literally, to further their political agenda and shut people like us down. They intentionally create falsehoods to emotionally manipulate people into supporting them both verbally and financially. The FBI lists them as a "Terrorist Organization". That is not a joke. Look it up.
> 
> Understand the difference between an "Animal Welfare" group, and and "Animal Rights" group. Be very careful and very particular about which one you support.
> 
> ...



I didn’t know that they were so against keeping animals in private captive situations, but it makes sense....

Thank you for this input!

I definitely agree they are much too extreme! And their social media is pretty gruesome, I don’t follow them, solely because I don’t need to see what they post!


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## wellington (Jun 30, 2019)

Ben02 said:


> I do agree that they do some great things. I watched a couple videos recently where they had an “insider” working at petco and he recorded and documented some of the conditions and sicknesses these animals had to deal with. I assume something was done about this particular petco but not a lot of detail was given about that.
> 
> After a bit of digging I came across a certain opinion several times, especially on their social media accounts which feature very graphic and extreme images and clips. These people claimed that PETA killed most of the animals they confiscated. This is a bold statement however it shouldn’t be completely disregarded. I’m looking forward to what other people have to say about this matter.


Yes, they do kill animals and also surrender them to kill shelters. They have no, no kill shelters of their own. Their agenda is not in saving the lives of animals in every way we were led to believe.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Jun 30, 2019)

In a nut shell, this somes up peta to me.


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## Relic (Jun 30, 2019)

P.E.T.A. People Equal To Animals


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## Tom (Jun 30, 2019)

Ben02 said:


> One question for you Tom, why is this allowed to happen? How are they able to do what they do?



This question really made me pause. There are a multitude of possible and plausible explanations for this. Where to begin?

PETA is evil, but they are not stupid. They are brilliant marketers and they know how to spin information to suit their purposes. They receive millions of dollars in donations annually from people who mean well, but don't understand who and what they are supporting. They use that money to get more and more restrictive animal rights legislation passed. They have teams of lawyers and lobbyists trying any and every avenue they can find to shut down any kind of animal based business. Because of them we no longer have apes or elephants in the entertainment industry. Now they are working on big cats and bears. The people who call the shots are afraid of them and their threats. People like me, who are their target, have to go to work every day. I'm not a politician or lobbyist. No one gives me millions of dollars a year to expose and shut down PETA. Its a one sided fight and despite the principals of freedom, the American way, and right vs. wrong, they are continuously gaining ground. They put people through school and then get them hired into government positions upon graduation, so they can further their animal rights agenda. They pay people to go undercover in animal businesses, and if they can't find anything wrong, they make something wrong, or make something up entirely.

How are they able to do what they do? Because people are gullible. They see the awful pictures, read the spin, and believe the lies. I don't want to start talking politics, but this is reminiscent of so much else that is wrong with our country. PETA are leftists, and their leftist tactics with animals are the same as the left's tactics with other issues. Think about it. We fought two world wars and lost millions of allied soldier's lives to stop the spread and take over of communism/socialism. Now a guy gets on TV and openly admits he's a socialist with a socialist agenda, and roughly half the country wants to vote for him because he's offering free stuff to people that they don't have to earn. Let that sink in... Mind you, the other side isn't any better. All of them are liars and none of them have the interest of America or American's as a priority.

All we can do is talk about and expose the lies. If enough people catch on, we can at least slow their progress.


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## Billna the 2 (Jun 30, 2019)

Tom said:


> This question really made me pause. There are a multitude of possible and plausible explanations for this. Where to begin?
> 
> PETA is evil, but they are not stupid. They are brilliant marketers and they know how to spin information to suit their purposes. They receive millions of dollars in donations annually from people who mean well, but don't understand who and what they are supporting. They use that money to get more and more restrictive animal rights legislation passed. They have teams of lawyers and lobbyists trying any and every avenue they can find to shut down any kind of animal based business. Because of them we no longer have apes or elephants in the entertainment industry. Now they are working on big cats and bears. The people who call the shots are afraid of them and their threats. People like me, who are their target, have to go to work every day. I'm not a politician or lobbyist. No one gives me millions of dollars a year to expose and shut down PETA. Its a one sided fight and despite the principals of freedom, the American way, and right vs. wrong, they are continuously gaining ground. They put people through school and then get them hired into government positions upon graduation, so they can further their animal rights agenda. They pay people to go undercover in animal businesses, and if they can't find anything wrong, they make something wrong, or make something up entirely.
> 
> ...


Agreed


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## SPILL (Jun 30, 2019)

wellington said:


> Yes, they do kill animals and also surrender them to kill shelters. They have no, no kill shelters of their own. Their agenda is not in saving the lives of animals in every way we were led to believe.



"In 2014, according to its own records, it took in 3,017 animals, about 1% of the total number brought to private Virginia shelters. Of those, PETA euthanized 2,455, or 81%. In some prior years that rate had risen to over 90%." - Washington Post


PETA's goal is to eliminate any and all human-animal interaction. No animal testing. No farms. No zoos. No aquariums. No pets.


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## wellington (Jun 30, 2019)

SPILL said:


> "In 2014, according to its own records, it took in 3,017 animals, about 1% of the total number brought to private Virginia shelters. Of those, PETA euthanized 2,455, or 81%. In some prior years that rate had risen to over 90%." - Washington Post
> 
> 
> PETA's goal is to eliminate any and all human-animal interaction. No animal testing. No farms. No zoos. No aquariums. No pets.


Exactly as I was saying. You said it better, thanks.


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## Ben02 (Jun 30, 2019)

Is it Ironic how they have the word “Pet” in their name


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jul 1, 2019)

so, ahh, back several posts ago there was mention of some of the good PETA has done. Please offer a list.


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## Blackdog1714 (Jul 1, 2019)

I always wonder about people that spend more money on themselves than the charity/organization itself. Not a bad piece of waterfront property!


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## SPILL (Jul 1, 2019)

Blackdog1714 said:


> I always wonder about people that spend more money on themselves than the charity/organization itself. Not a bad piece of waterfront property!


I don't want to derail this with talk of other "charities" but I'd like to point out that the Humane Society of the U.S. brings in approximately $100 million annually. Over $40 million of that goes to employee salaries and benefits. The CEO collects nearly a half million per year and they have an unbelievable 42 employees that earn six-figures.


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## wellington (Jul 1, 2019)

Blackdog1714 said:


> I always wonder about people that spend more money on themselves than the charity/organization itself. Not a bad piece of waterfront property!


Sad isn't it.


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## wellington (Jul 1, 2019)

SPILL said:


> I don't want to derail this with talk of other "charities" but I'd like to point out that the Humane Society of the U.S. brings in approximately $100 million annually. Over $40 million of that goes to employee salaries and benefits. The CEO collects nearly a half million per year and they have an unbelievable 42 employees that earn six-figures.


Yes, many of them are all gold diggers. The best way to support animals is thru your local charities. You can ask them how much of each donation actually goes for the animals. My understanding is they have to tell you. 
I used to donate to a lot of the animal charities. I only donate to animals. Now I stick with my local animal charities.


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## Tom (Jul 1, 2019)

SPILL said:


> I don't want to derail this with talk of other "charities" but I'd like to point out that the Humane Society of the U.S. brings in approximately $100 million annually. Over $40 million of that goes to employee salaries and benefits. The CEO collects nearly a half million per year and they have an unbelievable 42 employees that earn six-figures.


I didn't realize how bad it was. Thanks for the stats.


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## Ben02 (Jul 1, 2019)

Here’s an example of how they try to get people to support their cause..... using celebrities.


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## Michael231 (Jul 2, 2019)

Ben02 said:


> Here’s an example of how they try to get people to support their cause..... using celebrities.



This is too much....

Another reason I refuse to follow them on any social media platforms[emoji23]


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## Michael231 (Jul 2, 2019)

Ben02 said:


> Here’s an example of how they try to get people to support their cause..... using celebrities.



This is too much....

Another reason I refuse to follow them on any social media platforms[emoji23]


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## Michael231 (Jul 2, 2019)

Ben02 said:


> Here’s an example of how they try to get people to support their cause..... using celebrities.



I’m sorry...but this is too over the top! 

Another reason I refuse to follow them on any social media platform...[emoji23]


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## wccmog10 (Jul 2, 2019)

wellington said:


> Yes, many of them are all gold diggers. The best way to support animals is thru your local charities. You can ask them how much of each donation actually goes for the animals. My understanding is they have to tell you.
> I used to donate to a lot of the animal charities. I only donate to animals. Now I stick with my local animal charities.



I think was thinking the best way to support animals is adopt animals that need homes. Skip all of the human involvement and have direct impact on that individual dog/cat/turtle/bird’s life. But I understand that we all can’t have these animals as pets for a number of reasons (allergies, living arrangements, space, etc.), and sometimes the best you can do is donate time/supplies/money.


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## wellington (Jul 2, 2019)

wccmog10 said:


> I think was thinking the best way to support animals is adopt animals that need homes. Skip all of the human involvement and have direct impact on that individual dog/cat/turtle/bird’s life. But I understand that we all can’t have these animals as pets for a number of reasons (allergies, living arrangements, space, etc.), and sometimes the best you can do is donate time/supplies/money.


Adoption is never a bad thing. However, there are so many more in need then the one or two most people can would adopt. Money in the hands of good reliable organizations can go so much further. Both are needed.


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## Blackdog1714 (Jul 2, 2019)

Starting a charity is my dark side retirement scheme. I start a charity that tugs at the heart strings and give 51% directly to it. The other 49% is for salaries and business expenses. I could live like a king on the heart ache of the people. Luckily I have a heart- a well guarded and only shared with a select few- that would never allow me to do that.


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## jsheffield (Jul 2, 2019)

I skip big orgs and donate to local shelters and vets that neuter strays (and neuters pets cheaply for those who otherwise couldn't/wouldn't afford it) to head off the next generations of suffering.

We always live with two rescue dogs, and I drive Cane Corso rescues for an outfit that places dogs, either to their foster or forever homes.

Action and charity that is as close as possible to those you want to help is the best way to make your time and money work for you, and them. Big orgs tend to pay lots of salaries, lobby government, and suffer from mission drift.

Jamie


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## Pastel Tortie (Jul 2, 2019)

Ben02 said:


> Wow I did not know that they were listed as a terrorist organisation! It makes sense now as they post horrible videos on all social media platforms.
> 
> One question for you Tom, why is this allowed to happen? How are they able to do what they do?
> 
> Thank you for you opinion aswell Tom, this is really helpful to me as I’m still creating a view of my own.


Yes, domestic terrorist organization. Ben, I know you live in the UK, but you might be too young to remember the foot-and-mouth (FMD) epizootic that occurred there in 2001. PETA said that was a GOOD thing. 

And that's probably one of the nicest things that I can bring myself to say about them.


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## Pastel Tortie (Jul 2, 2019)

Maro2Bear said:


> One reason - “Freedom of Speech” ....


Who was it that said... " I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to my death your right to say it"?


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## Pastel Tortie (Jul 2, 2019)

Blackdog1714 said:


> Starting a charity is my dark side retirement scheme. I start a charity that tugs at the heart strings and give 51% directly to it. The other 49% is for salaries and business expenses. I could live like a king on the heart ache of the people. Luckily I have a heart- a well guarded and only shared with a select few- that would never allow me to do that.


I know you aren't serious, but this is probably good to mention anyway, because there are places to find out if you're getting a decent return on investment with charity donations. 

In Florida, charities have to divulge what percentage gets passed through and what percentage gets used for operating expenses. It's on the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services website. Most other states should have something similar.


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## Pastel Tortie (Jul 2, 2019)

Tom said:


> This question really made me pause. There are a multitude of possible and plausible explanations for this. Where to begin?
> 
> PETA is evil, but they are not stupid. They are brilliant marketers and they know how to spin information to suit their purposes. They receive millions of dollars in donations annually from people who mean well, but don't understand who and what they are supporting. They use that money to get more and more restrictive animal rights legislation passed. They have teams of lawyers and lobbyists trying any and every avenue they can find to shut down any kind of animal based business. Because of them we no longer have apes or elephants in the entertainment industry. Now they are working on big cats and bears. The people who call the shots are afraid of them and their threats. People like me, who are their target, have to go to work every day. I'm not a politician or lobbyist. No one gives me millions of dollars a year to expose and shut down PETA. Its a one sided fight and despite the principals of freedom, the American way, and right vs. wrong, they are continuously gaining ground. They put people through school and then get them hired into government positions upon graduation, so they can further their animal rights agenda. They pay people to go undercover in animal businesses, and if they can't find anything wrong, they make something wrong, or make something up entirely.
> 
> ...


Okay, I did find something nice to say: 
They hire really talented writers.

Unfortunately, they lack the fact-checking, accountability, and transparency to go with it.


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## Reptilony (Jul 2, 2019)

I don’t like peta and I have been vegan/vegeterian for the last 7 years, I guess you guys will hate me because of this but I do not care. Peta and everyone who judge me for not eating flesh may go to hell ! hehe


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## Tom (Jul 2, 2019)

Reptilony said:


> I don’t like peta and I have been vegan/vegeterian for the last 7 years, I guess you guys will hate me because of this but I do not care. Peta and everyone who judge me for not eating flesh may go to hell ! hehe


I don't hate you. Its none of my business what you or anyone else eats. I don't eat lots of stuff that I don't like. That's not a reason to hate someone.

Here is how I look at it: You don't like steak? More for me!!!

Your food preferences have nothing to do with whether or not I like you, or anyone else.


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## Billna the 2 (Jul 2, 2019)

Reptilony said:


> I don’t like peta and I have been vegan/vegeterian for the last 7 years, I guess you guys will hate me because of this but I do not care. Peta and everyone who judge me for not eating flesh may go to hell ! hehe


Good to hear it •Now hold up and let me eat•[emoji490][emoji491][emoji488][emoji487][emoji894][emoji895][emoji482]


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## Ben02 (Jul 2, 2019)

Pastel Tortie said:


> Yes, domestic terrorist organization. Ben, I know you live in the UK, but you might be too young to remember the foot-and-mouth (FMD) epizootic that occurred there in 2001. PETA said that was a GOOD thing.
> 
> And that's probably one of the nicest things that I can bring myself to say about them.


I haven’t heard of that before, could you explain it to me?


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## Reptilony (Jul 3, 2019)

Tom said:


> I don't hate you. Its none of my business what you or anyone else eats. I don't eat lots of stuff that I don't like. That's not a reason to hate someone.
> 
> Here is how I look at it: You don't like steak? More for me!!!
> 
> Your food preferences have nothing to do with whether or not I like you, or anyone else.



Oh I do like steak, but that's it! More for you! ; ) And peta is a bunch of crazy horse holes!


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## Tom (Jul 3, 2019)

Reptilony said:


> Oh I do like steak, but that's it! More for you! ; ) And peta is a bunch of crazy horse holes!


I am glad that more people are realizing what they are all about. Pretty soon they will have to change their name and re-brand themselves because they've lost all credibility.


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## Blackdog1714 (Jul 3, 2019)

Pastel Tortie said:


> I know you aren't serious, but this is probably good to mention anyway, because there are places to find out if you're getting a decent return on investment with charity donations.
> 
> In Florida, charities have to divulge what percentage gets passed through and what percentage gets used for operating expenses. It's on the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services website. Most other states should have something similar.



So very needed. Case in point Wounded Warrior in 2015 received $398 MIllion in donations and used $262 Million to run programs. $136 million for salaries and expenses like $36 million for TV ads. I work with numerous active and retired Veterans and not a one would have anything to do with them. I personally prefer Goodwill for hardgoods and clothing donation, beacuse they stay in your locale and go to their programs. Please research before give anything to a charity!!!!


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## JulietH (Jul 3, 2019)

Tom said:


> Animal Rights groups on the other had think pet ownership is akin to human slavery. Your pet tortoise is animal slavery to them, and you are evil for doing it. That cheeseburger was a living animal that had the same rights as you. Eating that cow is the same to them as eating your next door neighbor. The ants invading your kitchen have the same rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness as every human you've ever known. The PETA shelter has a 98% kill rate. Higher than any county shelter in the country, because to them death is better than living as someone's pet/slave. Breeding endangered species? That is nothing more than human exploitation to them. Make no mistake: These people are fringe radicals and they need your help to succeed. They pretend to care about the animals and act all nice to get you to donate to their cause, but they are literally criminals and frauds. LITERALLY.
> 
> Want to learn more about who your friends or enemies are? Go to https://usark.org
> 
> Don't fall for it people. PETA and HSUS are NOT out friends and they are not friends of animals.



Tom is right. Peta has been considered an ecoterrorist group in recent years, but I do not know if they have that distinction any more. They may be trying to play it smarter because many people do not like terrorists. If you go to their website it's very friendly looking, but I do not buy it for one second. These groups like Peta, ALF, and HSUS dupe well meaning but uninformed people to support them, but in the end, they want to abolish all human-animal interaction. They also do really stupid things to what ecosystem remains like mass releasing mink into the wild. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jul/19/thousands-of-mink-dead-after-activists-release-380/. Recently, they became a small shareholder in Facebook. I hope that this is not another way for them to have greater access to those who are easily manipulated or have greater visibility for the horrific pictures and videos they like to share, or to influence social media. I am for animal welfare, not animal rights. We need to be vigilant against these organizations. They seem to get the sympathy of politicians and law makers.


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## nandusnandus (Jul 3, 2019)

I'll spare myself the energy needed to articulate my sentiments regarding PETA since @Tom has done such nice job for me. I would also like to echo the reality that this seems to overlap with so many other issues that our society is currently facing. The gullibility of so many and the willingness of so many individuals and organizations to manipulate others based upon the unquestioning, well-meaning people of our country doesn't seem to be helping the U.S. at the moment.


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## Brimstonefox (Jul 3, 2019)

Hi, PETA use inaccurate, deliberately misleading propaganda to encourage dangerous and damaging action against lawful activities. They have been behind some malicious and pointless attacks and they give genuine animal welfare organisations a bad name.


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## lilly_sand99 (Jul 3, 2019)

Also, PETA doesn't really educate. 
A lot of what happens in animal production is for the comfort and productivity of the animals. Unhappy, stressed, hot, cold, and/or uncomfortable animals will not produce milk, eggs or meat very efficient. 
Pigs are kept in small spaces because they will bully each other. They need stimulation or they will eat another pigs tail/ears. 
Chickens will eat each other if they are not "debeaked" which is just cutting the very very tip of the beak off. 
So from the outside this looks awful and inhumane, but it is needed for the safety of other animals that are also in production. Farmers will be some of the biggest supporters of animals welfare. 

I grew up working a cattle ranch. I was taught to respect all living creatures, even the ones I was going to eat. Yet, it is scary watching PETA commercials/advertisements because their POV gets turned to fact in the public eye, and they are not taught how production animals work.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jul 3, 2019)

So, what good have they done???? In your opinion of coarse.


Michael231 said:


> Hey @Ben02
> Personally, I think PETA has done some good, they have changed a lot of things that have needed changing. ..


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## puffinboots (Jul 3, 2019)

Extremists of every stripe start to sound unhinged. Best to stick to the old maxim, ‘ ‘Moderation in ALL things’


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## mark1 (Jul 3, 2019)

i agree on the moderation aspect …….. peta has won countless court cases involving animal cruelty , they didn't win them with edited videos , most were won with guilty pleas …i'd guess those were for the most part good things … fact is the animal industry has no shortage of animal cruelty in every venue ………… I actually have no opinion on peta , i'm sure lots of folks making good money off it ……... from what I've seen in my life , if they're making stuff up , they needn't , there is plenty of real animal cruelty going on …………. the animal laws that have affected me personally have been the result of the need to regulate the irresponsible , responsible folks paying the price for the irresponsible ……. is there a reputable group monitoring animal cruelty ?


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## Professor Brenda (Jul 3, 2019)

People Eating Tasty Animals. 

I’m a farm girl. I love animals and take great care of all of them. Even the ones we eat. Tom had it right, Animal welfare is what we all want. People working for truly ethical treatment of animals do things like Temple Grandin, creating and serving on the board that regulates cattle handling facilities (slaughter houses). She eats meat but she sees no reason the animals need to be traumatized prior to their demise. 

PETA gives animal lovers a black eye. They use unethical tactics to make even humane animal keepers and trainers look like evil doers. They should be so ashamed.


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## Reptilony (Jul 3, 2019)

puffinboots said:


> Extremists of every stripe start to sound unhinged. Best to stick to the old maxim, ‘ ‘Moderation in ALL things’



I don’t think there is moderation in all things, you kill or you don’t, what’s in between? Torture? You kick a veal in the face for fun or you don’t. I don’t like the way peta acts and post all bunch of stupid nonsense but I do stand by their values to protect the ones who can’t defend themselves, and yes I do however think peta is an extremist group...


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## mark1 (Jul 3, 2019)

i'm reasonably sure mcdonalds hired dr Grandin to appease peta ? I also believe they changed their suppliers slaughter method ….…… something to do with dr Grandin's scoring methods …….


all the below is attributed to dr Grandin ………….



*CONAN:*I was curious about your thoughts on animal rights organizations like PETA and the Humane Society of America.

*Dr. GRANDIN:* Well, when they go find something really wrong, like some atrocious practices on a farm or in a slaughterhouse, just horrible management done, yeah, that needs to be uncovered and those people need to get in trouble for that, and that shouldn't be going on. And in the back of "Animals Make Us Human," I have an afterword, and it's titled: "Why am I Still in the Industry?"

One of the reasons why I'm still in the meat industry is when I first start out in cattle back in Arizona, there were a few ranchers that did an excellent job. And they were not killing cattle in a dip vat. They were doing things right. And I remember beautiful Singing Valley Ranch in Arizona, they did beautiful care of their animals.

And I could see that cattle, when they're done right, could have a good life. In fact, the cow that raises the calf is always been free range, and that's true whether that meat goes to Whole Foods or it goes to Tyson. You know, if I had started in the industry with egg-laying chickens, you know, my career might have taken a totally different track, because they've got a lot more problems.

**************************************

Blocked by industry indifference, she turned to the ASPCA pen, a device developed in the 1960s and 1970s that restrained cattle in a large box. She improved its effectiveness by designing a device that held the animal’s head in the optimal position for the _shochet_.

************************************

Over the next three years, McDonald’s helped Grandin usher in a wave of reforms, solidifying animal welfare as a new standard on any plant wanting to sell to the restaurant giant. Grandin trained a team of auditors who traveled the U.S., measuring things like: how loud it was in the cattle pens (mooing as a measurement of stress); the percentage of animals killed in one shot; and how many times a worker uses an electric cattle prod. She saw more change in that time than in her three previous decades of work.


**************************************************





In light of this new video(peta) exposing the gouging second cuts—and Agriprocessors’ quite different conduct during the tour—*Dr. Grandin* made a new assessment of Agriprocessors, stating, *“The undercover video clearly showed that when they think nobody is looking, they do bad things in this plant.” Dr. Grandin asserted that the plant should install a live video monitor to be reviewed by a third party auditor to prevent further cruelty.*


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## domalle (Jul 3, 2019)

It is tedious and tiresome to listen to the kowtowing to, and ranting of, some of the most prominent and opinionated members of the forum on this topic.

This discussion is far too politically charged and has breached the guidelines of the forum to be open, family friendly, and welcome to all, including the very young.

I am surprised and disheartened that the moderators have allowed this to proceed.


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## Ben02 (Jul 3, 2019)

domalle said:


> It is tedious and tiresome to listen to the kowtowing to, and ranting of, some of the most prominent and opinionated members of the forum on this topic.
> 
> This discussion is far too politically charged and has breached the guidelines of the forum to be open, family friendly, and welcome to all, including the very young.
> 
> I am surprised and disheartened that the moderators have allowed this to proceed.


It’s a very important subject that involves all of us who take care of animals, eat meat or not etc....

I’m still considered a child and I’ve already learned a lot from people on here and from my own research.


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## Tom (Jul 4, 2019)

domalle said:


> It is tedious and tiresome to listen to the kowtowing to, and ranting of, some of the most prominent and opinionated members of the forum on this topic.
> 
> This discussion is far too politically charged and has breached the guidelines of the forum to be open, family friendly, and welcome to all, including the very young.
> 
> I am surprised and disheartened that the moderators have allowed this to proceed.


Your choice of words tells the story...

Exposing fraudulent liars who are trying to legislate the subject matter of this very forum out of existence is not in violation of forum guidelines, is not unfriendly to anyone except the fraudulent liars and their supporters, is appropriate for all ages, and welcome to all including the very young.

Are you aware that PETA goes to grade schools, without invitation, consent or permission, and hands out pamphlets to school children? These pamphlets depict parents who feed meat and fish to their children as maniacal murderers with a knife in hand and a blood covered apron standing over a horrified rabbit or fish. You cool with that? Or that is that just more opinionated ranting?

This is not a joke. They are standing outside grade schools and handing these "Comic Books" to six year olds:






Now tell me how great they are and why I shouldn't say anything bad about them...


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## Michael231 (Jul 4, 2019)

Kapidolo Farms said:


> So, what good have they done???? In your opinion of coarse.


After reading some of the replies on this forum in more detail, browsing YouTube for old interviews/court cases, and reading different articles both from PETA itself, its adversaries (petakillsanimals.com, Consumer Freedom, and Activist Facts), and news sources neutral on the subject matter, I have to say my views are changed. After reading more of the replies on this thread, I was curious to check out what PETA had to say. After looking at their "Financial Reports" for 2018, it is quite apparent they aim to be very vague on what they are spending on...Considering they are extra vague even on their website is quite telling that they don't want you to know where your money is going. 

It says on their website that in 2018 of $56,171,611 in revenue they spent 16.2% on "Membership Development" which seems like much too much for an organization that's supposed goal is to help animals...

They also lump another 81.9% of their expenditure this year into "Direct Program Support", which seems quite fishy considering how vague the categories within "Direct Program Support" are. I find it hard to believe they spent >$14,000,000 solely on education outreach last year....and if all that money was spent, it certainly was a waste, as I think their so-called educational materials do the opposite of educating, its all just brand propaganda. 

Prior to this forum, I was not aware of their stance on captive wildlife either, and how many zoos they have attempted to sue for doing good conservation work. 

I have also been searching through some of the old FBI records, and it is quite apparent they are classified as terrorists. I was not aware of their ties to ALF or SHAC, the former having committed an upwards of 1,100 different criminal acts....It is ironic how their mission is to help animals, yet they support the use of firearms and explosives directed at humans, to get their point across. Just because of this fact, I definitely despise these organizations a lot more now. 

Lastly, after doing some more research into PETA's current activities, regarding their shelters and their current "campaigns", it seems like a good majority of what they do is pointless to begin with, like campaigning to get the cage that held the animals on Barnum's crackers removed (I wonder how much this cost to do....). It's also shocking how many animals they kill like Tom said. Every year since 1998 its been above a 70% kill rate....That's insane. 

So I'd say in conclusion, due to this discussion and some more research into the subject, my view is that PETA turns out to be a bunch of creeps banning together to try to get their voices heard....They aren't in it for the animals...

And to answer the question, I'd say not much!


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## Tom (Jul 4, 2019)

Michael231 said:


> After reading some of the replies on this forum in more detail, browsing YouTube for old interviews/court cases, and reading different articles both from PETA itself, its adversaries (petakillsanimals.com, Consumer Freedom, and Activist Facts), and news sources neutral on the subject matter, I have to say my views are changed. After reading more of the replies on this thread, I was curious to check out what PETA had to say. After looking at their "Financial Reports" for 2018, it is quite apparent they aim to be very vague on what they are spending on...Considering they are extra vague even on their website is quite telling that they don't want you to know where your money is going.
> 
> It says on their website that in 2018 of $56,171,611 in revenue they spent 16.2% on "Membership Development" which seems like much too much for an organization that's supposed goal is to help animals...
> 
> ...


The point of me typing all that I've typed on this thread and others like it is to open people's eyes to a genuine enemy of anyone who loves animals. Words cannot express how happy I am that you took it upon yourself to look these things up and reach your own conclusion. I am clearly very biased on this subject and obviously have much "skin in the game", so I'm glad when someone doesn't take my word for it and looks it up for themselves. What you find on your own is usually worse than all my "tedious and tiresome ranting".

Most years Phil Goss from USARK comes to the TTPG conference and keeps us up to date on the latest pending laws, animal rightist shenanigans and evil deeds. Last your he said PETA and the HSUS had both received around 80 million dollars in donations. USARK had only received something like 67 thousand to fight them. Its a one sided fight. We all need to get in the game or the AR groups are going to continue succeeding and eventually shut us all down. If someone can't donate money, then at least do what we've done here: Talk about it and expose these violent criminal liars for what they are and what they stand for to people who don't know better yet.


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## mark1 (Jul 4, 2019)

again , are there any reputable organizations monitoring animal cruelty ? there factually is plenty of it 

do you feel it doesn't need monitored ????

as far as peta being a threat to peoples pets , and our diets , i'd say that is highly overblown for the exact same purpose as their extreme claims are overblown …the price of meat due to government regulations is more likely to effect your diet than peta ….. there are much greater threats to our way of life and freedoms in the united states than peta , peta I doubt is in the top 1000 from my perspective…….. as far as who they are a threat to , those industries are proven not to be capable of policing themselves , do a better job and you'll reduce their ammunition , they got lots of it …… if you get a video of me kicking and beating my dog , the dog cowering in the corner or going belly up hoping I don't kill him , what would be an acceptable explanation ? folks should show as much outrage toward the folks in the industries giving them their legit ammo …….. was there a good explanation for those folks in texas making the animal crush videos , peta tracked the down , who else is doing such stuff ??????? usark ?????? these reptiles are treated inhumanely way more than they're not …….. peta euthanized 2000 animals in 2018 , in the US alone 1.5 million cats and dogs were euthanized , the problem isn't peta ……...


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## counting (Jul 4, 2019)

I'm a vegetarian but I want to be abundantly clear- PETA at it's core is a terrible organization, in my opinion. They draw reasonable animal lovers in with cute cartoon pictures of chicks and "I am not a nugget!" And bunnies against animal testing, all while they believe all domestic animals should be dead, euthanizing almost all the animals they claim to be 'saving', labeling pitbulls as killing machines...the list goes on. In my eyes, it's basically an extremist cult- where at the surface lots of kind hearted vegetarians and animal lovers relate to the message, but when you dig deeper and move through the "levels" in the organization, it is abundantly clear that is not what they are about.

If you love animals, if you are a vegetarian...please consider directing any activism and efforts elsewhere. It benefits nobody when we ignore real, glaring, terrible issues, because we agree with some of the surface values.

I am a (long time)vegetarian, but that does NOT mean I am a PETA supporter. I have strong, pacifist view points. I truly believe the greatest way to affect change is to change our own behaviours. Speak with your spending, and with your actions. Oh, and in my case sharing my own values with my kids!


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## mark1 (Jul 4, 2019)

counting said:


> labeling pitbulls as killing machines..



a good pitbull is probably lb for lb the top killing machine of all dogs …dogs been used for tens of centuries as killing machines , they don't have that wrong , it's one of their original purposes …….. the problem isn't the dogs , it's the irresponsible folks the breed has attracted , not a dog/animal you want running the streets loose , at least not any we've had ……if you ever seen what it takes to stop a good pit , it is sad to see , but at the same time it'd leave you in disbelief ..........they are where I draw my example of responsible folks paying a price for the irresponsible …..... a good estimate I've seen is 2 out of every 10 dogs in shelters is a pitbull , almost half of the entire population of pitbulls in the united states do not have a permanent home ........ peta has nothing to do with the pitbull problem .......... they're banned in much of Canada , Europe and Australia , I think peta has nothing to do with any of it ....... the irresponsible people who owned them provided the ammunition ............

is there a reputable organization monitoring animal cruelty ?

is animal cruelty a problem ?


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## Gijoux (Jul 4, 2019)

Tom said:


> There is nothing friendly about PETA or any other animal rights group. They are villains, and if you are a pet keeper or meat eater, they are your enemy whether you realize it or not. They lie, cheat and steal, literally, to further their political agenda and shut people like us down. They intentionally create falsehoods to emotionally manipulate people into supporting them both verbally and financially. The FBI lists them as a "Terrorist Organization". That is not a joke. Look it up.
> 
> Understand the difference between an "Animal Welfare" group, and and "Animal Rights" group. Be very careful and very particular about which one you support.
> 
> ...


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## Gijoux (Jul 4, 2019)

I agree 100%, but @Tom, how do you really feel? That was said tongue in cheek.


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## counting (Jul 4, 2019)

mark1 said:


> a good pitbull is probably lb for lb the top killing machine of all dogs …dogs been used for tens of centuries as killing machines , they don't have that wrong , it's one of their original purposes …….. the problem isn't the dogs , it's the irresponsible folks the breed has attracted , not a dog/animal you want running the streets loose , at least not any we've had ……if you ever seen what it takes to stop a good pit , it is sad to see , but at the same time it'd leave you in disbelief ..........they are where I draw my example of responsible folks paying a price for the irresponsible …..... a good estimate I've seen is 2 out of every 10 dogs in shelters is a pitbull , almost half of the entire population of pitbulls in the united states do not have a permanent home ........ peta has nothing to do with the pitbull problem .......... they're banned in much of Canada , Europe and Australia , I think peta has nothing to do with any of it ....... the irresponsible people who owned them provided the ammunition ............
> 
> is there a reputable organization monitoring animal cruelty ?
> 
> is animal cruelty a problem ?



They are extremely overbred- but not aggressive to humans by nature. They were actually bred to be very people friendly, so that their humans could safely intervene. I personally love the silly fat heads. I disagree with Petas stance that all PBs should be killed. 

SPCA for basic animal cruelty.

Beyond that- I really believe that you should not support an organization that does things you deeply disagree with, based on the fact that they do a little bit of good too. Besides, in the void left by PETA should they disappear, a chance for many legitimate, kind hearted animal lovers to create a better organization and use some of the funding for good would form. So many people join peta and donate because of their surface level animal lover propaganda, who would or do disagree with some of the core ethics.


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## Reptilony (Jul 4, 2019)

mark1 said:


> again , are there any reputable organizations monitoring animal cruelty ? there factually is plenty of it
> 
> do you feel it doesn't need monitored ????
> 
> as far as peta being a threat to peoples pets , and our diets , i'd say that is highly overblown for the exact same purpose as their extreme claims are overblown …the price of meat due to government regulations is more likely to effect your diet than peta ….. there are much greater threats to our way of life and freedoms in the united states than peta , peta I doubt is in the top 1000 from my perspective…….. as far as who they are a threat to , those industries are proven not to be capable of policing themselves , do a better job and you'll reduce their ammunition , they got lots of it …… if you get a video of me kicking and beating my dog , the dog cowering in the corner or going belly up hoping I don't kill him , what would be an acceptable explanation ? folks should show as much outrage toward the folks in the industries giving them their legit ammo …….. was there a good explanation for those folks in texas making the animal crush videos , peta tracked the down , who else is doing such stuff ??????? usark ?????? these reptiles are treated inhumanely way more than they're not …….. peta euthanized 2000 animals in 2018 , in the US alone 1.5 million cats and dogs were euthanized , the problem isn't peta ……...



Thank you for taking the time to write what I think, I agree with you but I have got tired of arguing with people over time especially about these kind of subject, I guess I wouldn’t be a good politician! haha!


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## Reptilony (Jul 4, 2019)

counting said:


> I'm a vegetarian but I want to be abundantly clear- PETA at it's core is a terrible organization, in my opinion. They draw reasonable animal lovers in with cute cartoon pictures of chicks and "I am not a nugget!" And bunnies against animal testing, all while they believe all domestic animals should be dead, euthanizing almost all the animals they claim to be 'saving', labeling pitbulls as killing machines...the list goes on. In my eyes, it's basically an extremist cult- where at the surface lots of kind hearted vegetarians and animal lovers relate to the message, but when you dig deeper and move through the "levels" in the organization, it is abundantly clear that is not what they are about.
> 
> If you love animals, if you are a vegetarian...please consider directing any activism and efforts elsewhere. It benefits nobody when we ignore real, glaring, terrible issues, because we agree with some of the surface values.
> 
> I am a (long time)vegetarian, but that does NOT mean I am a PETA supporter. I have strong, pacifist view points. I truly believe the greatest way to affect change is to change our own behaviours. Speak with your spending, and with your actions. Oh, and in my case sharing my own values with my kids!



That is also why I think they are extremists, im sure most vegeterians like us think they are crazy and go too far. As for the pitbulls I think they can be a perfectly good dog as long as they are trained well just like any dog breed. Im sure @Tom will have something to say about this breed with his experience with dogs.


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## turtlesteve (Jul 4, 2019)

I'm 100% with Tom on this one.... I heard about some of their shenanigans long before I joined the forum. Most people here (South Carolina) see through them immediately, because they have such an obvious political bent and their tactics are over the top. However folks here DON'T realize that HSUS has almost the same agenda, but since they're low key about it, they are far more successful at deceiving people.

Steve


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## ascott (Jul 4, 2019)

Reptilony said:


> I don’t like peta and I have been vegan/vegeterian for the last 7 years, I guess you guys will hate me because of this but I do not care. Peta and everyone who judge me for not eating flesh may go to hell ! hehe



Nothing wrong with vegan/veg....just as long as you don't preach to others that they too should do that same.


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## ascott (Jul 4, 2019)

mark1 said:


> a good pitbull is probably lb for lb the top killing machine of all dogs …dogs been used for tens of centuries as killing machines , they don't have that wrong , it's one of their original purposes …….. the problem isn't the dogs , it's the irresponsible folks the breed has attracted , not a dog/animal you want running the streets loose , at least not any we've had ……if you ever seen what it takes to stop a good pit , it is sad to see , but at the same time it'd leave you in disbelief ..........they are where I draw my example of responsible folks paying a price for the irresponsible …..... a good estimate I've seen is 2 out of every 10 dogs in shelters is a pitbull , almost half of the entire population of pitbulls in the united states do not have a permanent home ........ peta has nothing to do with the pitbull problem .......... they're banned in much of Canada , Europe and Australia , I think peta has nothing to do with any of it ....... the irresponsible people who owned them provided the ammunition ............
> 
> is there a reputable organization monitoring animal cruelty ?
> 
> is animal cruelty a problem ?



Rottweilers were the target in the same way years ago...then Dobermans.... The Pit, the Rott and Dobermans are all super confident breeds, designed to be...the problem also occurs when a person who is not the best match for the confident/strong breeds gets one and thinks it is a good match. It takes a confident, strong, mellow and naturally assertive human to work well with the canine version of that human. Folks would benefit canine breeds if they spent a little time researching function originally established in a breed/type of dog versus form--just because they look cool and such. I mean, the most aggressive dogs I have encountered time after time, pound for pound that is, are the small "lap" dogs....but because they are so small folks discount their poor behavior even though they bite so many folks, but because they don't cause death---they are overlooked.

PETA sucks...in my humble opinion that is  But any large "group" of that nature becomes money hungry/driven and lose sight of the good someone may have started out with....just the way it goes. But that goes with just about any organized group that uses "feelings" as the driving force of fund raising....


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## KSeaman (Jul 5, 2019)

Ben02 said:


> What do the wise people of the TFO think about PETA?
> 
> This is a friendly discussion so please share your different opinions and views.


I think PETA might have started out as a well meaning group of people for the right reasons however I think as many organizations they have gone WAY to far I am TOTALLY against any group or organization that takes it upon themselves to release or do ANYTHING to someone else's animals or property FOR ANY REASON. Contact the proper authorities if something needs to be done. Bottom line PETA doesn't want anyone to "own" any animal I do not agree with this. Reptile expo people or dog or cat show people shouldn't have to worry that PETA will show up to harm their pets. Dogs have been released by PETA, some of these poor dogs have been so frightened they have run away and gotten hit or lost and never found. Nope I do not agree with what PETA has done or stands for.


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## mark1 (Jul 5, 2019)

pits(gamedogs) were bred to be game , period ……… when breeding for a trait like that everything else is overlooked including man biters …….. the game is/was full of man biters ……. the adage " man biters weren't bred because they couldn't be handled in the box" is a myth , there are more than a few famous foundation dogs that were manbiters , and that trait does persist …….. 

if folks don't realize that some breeds are potentially inherently more dangerous than others , they really don't know the reality about dogs ……….. 


are there any reputable organizations monitoring animal cruelty ?

I've kept / bred dogs and animals all my life , i'm wondering what peta has done that has negatively affected me ?

are there any reputable organizations monitoring animal cruelty ?


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## Reptilony (Jul 5, 2019)

ascott said:


> Nothing wrong with vegan/veg....just as long as you don't preach to others that they too should do that same.



Nothing wrong with meat eaters....just as long as you don't preach to others that they too should do that same. Is it wrong to have an opinion now? And btw I don’t ‘’preach’’ anything, im not an activist, I don’t even tell my family what they should do so don’t worry I’ll never tell you to do anything...


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## counting (Jul 5, 2019)

Reptilony said:


> Nothing wrong with meat eaters....just as long as you don't preach to others that they too should do that same. Is it wrong to have an opinion now? And btw I don’t ‘’preach’’ anything, im not an activist, I don’t even tell my family what they should do so don’t worry I’ll never tell you to do anything...



I've been veg for about 12ish years. People who have known me for years and years casually and find out always pull out the "well as long as they don't preach". I'm like, the preachy vegetarian is kind of a myth and generalization, because the vast majority of us just want to avoid bacon jokes, haha


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## Reptilony (Jul 5, 2019)

counting said:


> I've been veg for about 12ish years. People who have known me for years and years casually and find out always pull out the "well as long as they don't preach". I'm like, the preachy vegetarian is kind of a myth and generalization, because the vast majority of us just want to avoid bacon jokes, haha



Exactly, extremists are always the ones we hear the most, that's why it's important not to generalize, there's a lot of quiet poeple on this Earth and their opinions count just as much.


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## GardenDmpls (Jul 5, 2019)

PETA is not a good group gone bad. The founder put out a book of her philosophy, which is essentially nihilist, as far as humans are concerned, and her organization is basically proselytizing her beliefs.


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## Tom (Jul 5, 2019)

mark1 said:


> are there any reputable organizations monitoring animal cruelty ?
> 
> I've kept / bred dogs and animals all my life , i'm wondering what peta has done that has negatively affected me ?
> 
> are there any reputable organizations monitoring animal cruelty ?



You keep asking and no one is taking your bait. Not interested in arguing with you, yet again, over a subject where there is no argument. This is a thread specifically asking about the merits of PETA. If you want to talk about whether or not there is animal cruelty in the world and if there are organizations that police this activity, I suggest you start your own thread instead of continuing to try to hijack this one.

And your argument that PETA is not so bad because there are also other bad things in the world is ridiculous. You clearly don't recognize the scope and severity of the problem, and other problems that are unrelated to this problem don't mean this is not a problem.


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## Reptilony (Jul 5, 2019)

Tom said:


> You keep asking and no one is taking your bait. Not interested in arguing with you, yet again, over a subject where there is no argument. This is a thread specifically asking about the merits of PETA. If you want to talk about whether or not there is animal cruelty in the world and if there are organizations that police this activity, I suggest you start your own thread instead of continuing to try to hijack this one.
> 
> And your argument that PETA is not so bad because there are also other bad things in the world is ridiculous. You clearly don't recognize the scope and severity of the problem, and other problems that are unrelated to this problem don't mean this is not a problem.


Tom, you have a tendency to try to shut people down when they have a different opinion than you. Even if he was saying that peta is the best animal organisation(which he is not saying), he would have the right to express himself. What you call a bait is just an interesting point to make because there might be another big animal organisation that is worth supporting. This thread was not titled tell me how bad peta is, ben said ''*What does the Wise people of tfo think about peta?, this is a friendly discussion so please share your different opinions and views'*'. Telling him go start your own thread is like saying I Don't want a different opinion than me here. He never said peta was not so bad, he is just bringing a different point of vue to the discussion, what a boring world would it be if everyone agreed with each other all the time,and I Don't even like peta, but I Don't agree with what you say to this man.


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## Sulcatafriend (Jul 5, 2019)

Ben02 said:


> What do the wise people of the TFO think about PETA?
> 
> This is a friendly discussion so please share your different opinions and views.


I Think peta has become a money making machine 

In the early years they did things to actually help animals and spread info about the things that are wrong 

Nowadays they spend all there money on themselves 

Intresting to note that the founders Ingrid Newkirk and Alex Pacheco have both pretty big lands with big houses and both drive suvs... and now tell me why is someone from peta driving an mercedes g63


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## Yvonne G (Jul 5, 2019)

Sulcatafriend said:


> I Think peta has become a money making machine
> 
> In the early years they did things to actually help animals and spread info about the things that are wrong
> 
> ...


Well, maybe they have a day job???


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## Tom (Jul 5, 2019)

Reptilony said:


> Tom, you have a tendency to try to shut people down when they have a different opinion than you. Even if he was saying that peta is the best animal organisation(which he is not saying), he would have the right to express himself. What you call a bait is just an interesting point to make because there might be another big animal organisation that is worth supporting. This thread was not titled tell me how bad peta is, ben said ''*What does the Wise people of tfo think about peta?, this is a friendly discussion so please share your different opinions and views'*'. Telling him go start your own thread is like saying I Don't want a different opinion than me here. He never said peta was not so bad, he is just bringing a different point of vue to the discussion, what a boring world would it be if everyone agreed with each other all the time,and I Don't even like peta, but I Don't agree with what you say to this man.


Fair enough. This may be true, but Mark has a history of arguing with anything and everything I ever say. Its annoying. Its not "expressing himself". Its continually finding fault in every little detail of every little thing said by someone you don't like and continually picking at them over the course of years. He just wants to argue with me and it got old a real long time ago. I don't mind having different opinions here. I'll politely, but emphatically argue my case against PETA with anyone that cares to argue. I'm just tired of arguing over every stupid little thing with this particular internet troll. I've got better things to do with my time.

On this thread, he's asked the same questions repeatedly and no one is interested in arguing with him, because we all know that is the point of the questions. No thank you. You go ahead and entertain his questions if you want to. I won't stand in your way.


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## Reptilony (Jul 5, 2019)

Tom said:


> Fair enough. This may be true, but Mark has a history of arguing with anything and everything I ever say. Its annoying. Its not "expressing himself". Its continually finding fault in every little detail of every little thing said by someone you don't like and continually picking at them over the course of years. He just wants to argue with me and it got old a real long time ago. I don't mind having different opinions here. I'll politely, but emphatically argue my case against PETA with anyone that cares to argue. I'm just tired of arguing over every stupid little thing with this particular internet troll. I've got better things to do with my time.
> 
> On this thread, he's asked the same questions repeatedly and no one is interested in arguing with him, because we all know that is the point of the questions. No thank you. You go ahead and entertain his questions if you want to. I won't stand in your way.



I don’t know this particular individual and what he said in the past but if he does intentionally tries to upset you I agree that is wrong. Im satisfied we could settle this as rational men.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jul 5, 2019)

A whole other track, not touched on here, is legally demanded use of laboratory animals to test drug candidates. Who demands it, The Food and Drug Administration. All drugs must be tested on two rodent models, and one non-rodent model before the drug development company can propose it for use with humans. That usually entails mice and rats, then dogs or monkeys.

The use on the drug on non-human models is to evaluate many aspects of the drug efficacy and the animals' response to the drug. Then if the drug might be used in women, it needs to be used on some animal with developing fetuses. Usually rabbits. 

Why would the FDA do this? Drugs had been allowed into the market based on speculated outcomes with humans, only to injure or kill many people before being recalled or eliminated. So, these compounds are tested on model organisms. 

I first learned PETA, ALF etc. were considered terrorist organization in 2003 from former FBI agents hired as consultants to some of the bigger BioPharma companies. It was not so much the conflicted message that warrants as label 'terrorist organization', as it was/is the tactics they use. Result of tactics is a measure for classification, but the actual tactics and methods of recruitment and methods of propaganda, as well as what they actually do are what meet the criteria of terrorist organization.

They persist as they are not considered a threat to our government or people in general. They do damage to vested interest of human health when they 'go after' drug companies, who have more $ to influence politicians/agencies. That is why they have pulled far back from those fronts of activity.

In turn this mean they target lower hanging fruit, animal hobbyists, and smaller farming entities. They have been shouted out of the FDA required use of animal models. Their driver is self interest for income, like anyone else, and as long as they don't step on the toes of entities with bigger feet, they are left to us, against our interest in animal keeping.

There is indeed cruelty associated with some animal keeping, and good scientific ethical and transparent ways to deal with it. PETA prefers to emot people based on station-in-life guilt. That is social villainy. It is the same kind of irrational prompting that post death promises are used to recruit people into tother kinds of organizations.

Station-in-life guilt is the remorse of existing you see in the mirror, and instead of being helpful to people who might experience this feeling, they suck money and help from them. It is on par with inappropriate contact with minors being perpetrated by those who are charged in life to protect minors. 

That is all.


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## mark1 (Jul 5, 2019)

I can tell you mark has a habit to sticking to what he knows , he's not that bright and sticking to what he knows makes him appear smarter than he is ….mark is open minded , he's just carful what he lets in …....…. I looked at when the last time you and I posted on the same thread aside from this one , I can only get 10 pages of history , 199 of your last post , the only time in those 10 pages aside from this post was once jun 26 ….. was about fluid injections , whatever experience you have with them I really don't care , they don't do me any good , I shared my experiences with them , which is quite a bit , best I can tell they've all been positive …….. the fact you think i'm searching for you , maybe you can talk to someone about that , I think it may be therapeutic for you...…..


back to peta

do you think medical research using apes should be regulated ?

it is today , how did that happen ?????/

do you think it's ok to shackle a completely cognizant cow , suspend them from their legs and start butchering them , and let them die in the process ?

we don't today , how did that happen ……...

when i was young dog fighting was done openly , was a minor misdemeanor , there were states it was legal , should it be legal ?

it's not today , how did that come about ?

if you are thinking peta , which if you believe their claimed membership , represents .00077% of the population , is gonna end the meat industry , force us to be vegetarians , stop folks from having pets , breeding dogs , racing horses , and bring an end to domestic animal which dates back possibly 30 centuries , there is a pretty good chance your as delusional as them………..


if you think they're a thorn in the side of folks in your business , from my perspective they should be ……… don't give them ammo and you'll be fine , you need to police your industry better ……...

as I said peta didn't cause the pitbull problem , they were given the ammo , I seen it firsthand ……. if and when breeding dogs gets further regulated , it's not going to be peta doing , it's going to be the irresponsible folks giving them their ammunition , i'm watching it happen ……….

I can name a couple dozen things that have changed in my life for the better for the animals , who was responsible , folks with animal interest at heart , certainly quite a few were backed by peta ……..

i'd like to hear the horror stories about peta aside from folks making a bunch of money off it , and them putting down 74% of their rescues …….. 64% are put down by shelters nationwide , you have to assume some of their rescues are in pretty rough shape ?

lots of stuff they've done , needed done , if someone can do it better , they should …….. you'd think with as much money as there is to made someone would take it on …… they should be easy to put out of business , seems nobody likes them , and they are a "terrorist" org ……..


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## Keeks (Jul 5, 2019)

Tom said:


> Your choice of words tells the story...
> 
> Exposing fraudulent liars who are trying to legislate the subject matter of this very forum out of existence is not in violation of forum guidelines, is not unfriendly to anyone except the fraudulent liars and their supporters, is appropriate for all ages, and welcome to all including the very young.
> 
> ...


WOAHHHH! Tom, thank you for that! Keep preaching! Your words are on point & educational.


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## Russiantortylady (Jul 6, 2019)

How did this subject even get on here??? All we do is support one another and ask questions and give educated answers............Nobody on here is disrespecting their animals or not caring for them, for crying out loud people on here are rescuing them if they need to be. I think they miss named PETA, it should be PAIN - IN - THE - ***!!


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## Ben02 (Jul 6, 2019)

PETA releases videos on their YouTube account which involve an “inside man” working at petco/pet smart. They record and document what happens behind the scenes i.e living conditions and how the animals are treated.

These videos actually inspired me to create this thread and see all your opinions, very wide spectrum of opinions aswell which I’m really pleased of so thank you all for that.

Now back to these videos.... something feels odd, there are animals on show that are covered in blood, limbs missing etc... (these are shown to the public in display enclosures) But when have you ever walked in to a pet shop and seen a bearded dragon with a bleeding, severed limb and covered in blood and muck? Definitely not me, but that just might be my experience. Once again I say..... Discuss!!!

I would add a link to one video in particular but it’s quite gruesome and depressing and i won’t add it in case a youngster stumbles across it. I urge you to search it on YouTube though.


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## Blackdog1714 (Jul 6, 2019)

AMERICA- good or bad I love free speech


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## GardenDmpls (Jul 7, 2019)

Ben, they fake a lot of the videos or misrepresent what is in them. They show a picture of cows walking over a barn drainage channel a few inches deep and state that these cows are being forced to live in deep manure pits. Knowing that cows lie down a lot (cud chewing time) and seeing these cows are clean down to their cow ankles (forget the term for that) it is obvious this is not true, but if you are not familiar with the ways of cows, you might believe it.


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## William Lee Kohler (Jul 8, 2019)

Sulcatafriend said:


> I Think peta has become a money making machine
> 
> In the early years they did things to actually help animals and spread info about the things that are wrong
> 
> ...



Just like al gore and the liar in chief at the sierra club!


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## Tom (Jul 8, 2019)

Ben02 said:


> PETA releases videos on their YouTube account which involve an “inside man” working at petco/pet smart. They record and document what happens behind the scenes i.e living conditions and how the animals are treated.
> 
> These videos actually inspired me to create this thread and see all your opinions, very wide spectrum of opinions aswell which I’m really pleased of so thank you all for that.
> 
> ...


Pet stores are typically staffed by young people who are often paid minimum wage, or close to it. Mistakes are bound to happen. some people are thoughtless or careless. The management does its best, in all cases that I know of, and I know of many cases, to hire good people, train them well, and oversee their daily chores. A mistake like an animal being injured or discarded is horrible, and most pet store employees work tirelessly to avoid such things, no different than you or I try to avoid such things. Animal rights groups either cause these mistakes on purpose, or simply document these rare occurrences and try to make it seem like it happens every day all over the globe and the whole pet industry should be shut down. Case in point: To demonstrate how poorly circus elephants were treated, animal rightist "investigators" would turn off their cameras, throw an M-80 toward the elephants as they were being moved about, then start up the cameras and video the elephant trainers struggling to keep their panicked animals under control after the explosion. The circus' parent company filed suit against them and won an $80 million dollar judgement against the animal rightists a few years ago. It took many years and millions in legal fees to win this judgement, and most people that PETA or HSUS go after don't have this kind of time or money. They now choose their targets more carefully.

I know of undercover PETA operatives in my own industry. These people were hired and trained as caretakers for the animals. They couldn't find anything wrong to document, so they created "problems" to document. In one case, the lady was supposed to clean the owl enclosure daily. She was paid, trained, and instructed to do so. Over a four day stretch of her being on duty, she skipped cleaning the owl's enclosure and took pics and video of all the poop collected under the owls night perch as "proof" of poor conditions and lack of care. The management trusted her to do her job and she was promptly fired as soon as her dereliction of duty was discovered. The enclosure was definitely dirty. It was dirty because the PETA operative who was being paid clean it every day wasn't cleaning it!

In another case, a pig was dumped off at another animal ranch. This pig was not theirs, and they'd never used it in film. The pig had some open sores on on it and so this company called in their vet, at their own expense, to see what was wrong with the pig and pay to treat it. It wasn't even their pig! They just wanted to do the right thing, at a cost of hundreds of dollars, and make sure this pig was looked after and kept well until they could find it a suitable home. The undercover PETA operative took pics and video of this pig and tried to make it look and seem like the animal was abused and neglected after the greedy animal exploiters used it to make money. It was a total lie. A complete fabrication. But if you looked at the pictures, listened to the sad music, and believed what you were being told in their shocking video, you'd probably cry. PETA turned a good deed, a very expensive good deed, into a case of "animal abuse" and attempted to slander the good people who were paying hundreds of dollars out of their own pockets to help an animal in need that was dumped on them.

When I say these are bad people and liars, I am not exaggerating.


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## Tom (Jul 8, 2019)

mark1 said:


> I can tell you mark has a habit to sticking to what he knows , he's not that bright and sticking to what he knows makes him appear smarter than he is ….mark is open minded , he's just carful what he lets in …
> 
> u think they're a thorn in the side of folks in your business , from my perspective they should be ……… don't give them ammo and you'll be fine , you need to police your industry better ……...



The two quoted paragraphs directly conflict each other. The first paragraph conflicts with itself, and contradicts the rest of your posts.

You stick to what you know? How do you know my industry? How many day have you spent on a film set or training animals for film? How many production meetings have you sat in with directors, producers and department heads? You know nothing about my industry, its self-policing tactics and from the posts in this thread, you clearly know lighting about the people attacking us. What you know is the lies reported by the left wing main stream media, and the animal rights organizations themselves. That is the info you've been "careful to let in..."

You think we should be relentlessly attacked and the victim of lies and false accusations? Really? You think its okay that we should have to spend millions of dollars on defending ourselves from frivolous baseless lawsuits? You think we should be subject to law after law and regulation upon regulation that does nothing to stop real animal abusers but costs us, the good guys, thousands of dollars annually? You think I should have to spend my time in court and protesting to stop yet another useless animal rights law from getting passed, instead of spending my time taking care of and enjoying those animals? If yes, then your perspective is wrong. Dead wrong.

Don't give them ammo and we'll be fine? That's absurd. We don't give them ammo. They make stuff up. And we most certainly will not be fine, and there is proof of that all around for anyone who wants to see it. You are wrong. You don't understand the what the problem is, or the severity of the problem. You don't understand these things because it is not involved in the life you live daily. You don't understand these things because you are not sticking to what you know. Downplaying what these people are up to and what they are accomplishing because you are ignorant about what is going on helps no one except our enemies.


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## TammyJ (Jul 8, 2019)

We all talk about what we know, or think we know. Remember guys, we are all on the side of what is right, and on each other's side when it comes to good animal care and keeping!
By the way, can I ask about Greenpeace? Are they OK? It seems to me that they are, but then PETA used to seem OK to me too once.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jul 8, 2019)

TammyJ said:


> We all talk about what we know, or think we know. Remember guys, we are all on the side of what is right, and on each other's side when it comes to good animal care and keeping!
> By the way, can I ask about Greenpeace? Are they OK? It seems to me that they are, but then PETA used to seem OK to me too once.


sometimes leadership of good organizations can turn them bad. Often it's not a day and night to see the difference. Many super large NGO's have become not so thrifty and then draw in people who perpetuate that. Then they are just big money machines, still creating result, but much much less effective per dollar spent. I don't follow GreenPeace specifically, but I don't recall them falling into this cycle. But their efforts have left much room for others to get into their original space, or else the Seas Shepard organization would not be around. 

It is very difficult to sort some of the relationships out between these organizations and their effectiveness. There is still yet another NGO that tracks and ranks NGO for how they spend money and their effectiveness. FWIW PETA is never rated high at all.


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## Billna the 2 (Jul 8, 2019)

All this reading is making my head hurt....I agree


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## mark1 (Jul 8, 2019)

are you stalking me tom ????? i'm getting a little paranoid , lol ………...

your kidding right ???? animals in the entertainment industry are in safe hands ?????? rescues are full of chimps and orangutans from the entertainment industry …….. show me the pics of you folks with all the 16-20yr old 130lb actor chimps ????? or the three 30yr old 160 lb male chimps walking hand in hand through the parking lot with his trainer ….....the only place you'll find them is rescues , medical labs , or locked in cages ........the usda and awa violations , fines and lifetime suspension against animal "trainers" in the entertainment industry are to numerous to get into , peta doesn't need to have anything to do with it …… I seen the Canadian guy with the baby tiger , whipping the **** out him , saying he liked to hit them in the face or the paws when the paw is on something because it hurts more , the tiger went belly up and the moron said he was challenging him ? I got news for you animal trainer , belly up isn't a challenge in any animal …….. the little tiger was scared s****less , confused , and didn't know what the moron wanted ……… the "trainer" throwing the dog in the pool , that was a skill , lol …….. if that dog wasn't afraid of water before , he is now , unless he's a scuba diver dog , when he went under that should have sealed it …… to my surprise the supplemental footage of the dog happily doing the stunt earlier in the day never came out , I wonder why …… any industry making money off animals needs monitored by an outside independent source , if you don't realize that , you just need to pay a little better attention …….. I been doing this stuff a long long long time . I seen long ago that negative consequences are the most powerful and lasting motivators , the easiest to use , and definitely they have the ability to be the most damaging ………. in the hands of morons like the two I just mentioned above , without question damaging …….

if I missed anything in your post it's because I skimmed it , I rarely read your post ………….


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## Tom (Jul 8, 2019)

mark1 said:


> are you stalking me tom ????? i'm getting a little paranoid , lol ………...
> 
> your kidding right ???? animals in the entertainment industry are in safe hands ?????? rescues are full of chimps and orangutans from the entertainment industry …….. show me the pics of you folks with all the 16-20yr old 130lb actor chimps ????? or the three 30yr old 160 lb male chimps walking hand in hand through the parking lot with his trainer ….....the only place you'll find them is rescues , medical labs , or locked in cages ........the usda and awa violations , fines and lifetime suspension against animal "trainers" in the entertainment industry are to numerous to get into , peta doesn't need to have anything to do with it …… I seen the Canadian guy with the baby tiger , whipping the **** out him , saying he liked to hit them in the face or the paws when the paw is on something because it hurts more , the tiger went belly up and the moron said he was challenging him ? I got news for you animal trainer , belly up isn't a challenge in any animal …….. the little tiger was scared s****less , confused , and didn't know what the moron wanted ……… the "trainer" throwing the dog in the pool , that was a skill , lol …….. if that dog wasn't afraid of water before , he is now , unless he's a scuba diver dog , when he went under that should have sealed it …… to my surprise the supplemental footage of the dog happily doing the stunt earlier in the day never came out , I wonder why …… any industry making money off animals needs monitored by an outside independent source , if you don't realize that , you just need to pay a little better attention …….. I been doing this stuff a long long long time . I seen long ago that negative consequences are the most powerful and lasting motivators , the easiest to use , and definitely they have the ability to be the most damaging ………. in the hands of morons like the two I just mentioned above , without question damaging …….
> 
> if I missed anything in your post it's because I skimmed it , I rarely read your post ………….


Your ignorance abounds, as usual.

The chimps and orangutans that we worked with are in sanctuaries, not rescues. We, of our own accord, built an extra charge into their daily rental fees to pay for those sanctuaries where they are loved and properly cared for. Many producers complained about the extra money. We explained that we have a responsibility to care for these animals for life, and made them pay it if they wanted our animals on set.

I have no idea what the "awa" is, but they having nothing to do with my industry. The reputable companies that I deal with have no issues with their USDA permits or inspectors. During our bi-annual unannounced inspections, they tell us how enjoyable it is to inspect our compounds because the animals are so well cared for and looked after.

There is only one trainer I know of whose license has been suspended by the USDA. He's a wanted criminal in several states, goes by many aliases, or uses other people's names to do business with, and he's been caught using USDA license numbers from reputable companies without their knowledge or consent. He's been blackballed by all reputable people in this industry for decades, but he's sneaky and keeps inventing new ways to fool people. You can't blame the actions of this criminal on the rest of us. We all turn him in and report him every chance we get. Can't self-police any more than that.

I have no idea what you are talking about with a tiger in Canada, but that is no one I know and know one I do business with. There are a lot of crooked people in the entertainment industry that will try to hire anyone to save a buck. That is how disreputable people get hired and make the rest of us look bad. That isn't us. That is some wannabe with a pet that has no business on a film set.

Now for the dog "being thrown in to the water" incident. This one example proves my point about PETA's lies, your ignorance, and the gullibility of some people who act on their emotions without thinking. That dog had been training in that pool for weeks with the fans and water sloshing. That dog loves to jump in the water and loved jumping into _that _pool. They had trained the dogs to jump in over at the far end. After successfully getting the dog to do it as scripted 7 or 8 times, the director asked to have the dog jump in from that weird angle and swim diagonally across the pool. Trainers gave it a try. Why wouldn't they? Dog didn't want to jump in from there because it had been trained to jump in from the other end all those weeks. Any one who has ever trained a dog to jump in water knows they tend to pattern that way. My own dogs do this in my own pool. They favor one spot as their jumping in point and will run to that spot before jumping in. I spend time working with them to get them to jump in from anywhere. As soon as the trainer let go of the dog after trying unsuccessfully to get it into the water, the dog ran around to the "correct" spot and jumped right in. Again. Ever wonder why no one ever saw the rest of that footage? Because PETA is the one that released it and they don't want you to see the rest because you'll know it was a happy dog doing what it loved to do. Know why the studios didn't release their behind the scenes footage of what really happened? Some execs in some office decided it would be best to let it all blow over and they didn't want to make PETA more mad at them and incite more lies and attacks on their movie. Cowards missed their chance to slap PETA down and expose them for the frauds they are. If a dog was really being abused and PETA had video proof of it, why did they sit on that footage for 15 months and only release when the film was about to premier? Why, if they care so much about stopping abuse would they let the alleged "abuse" go on for 15 months before speaking up and releasing the footage? Because there was no abuse, they don't care about abuse, and they were pulling yet another dishonest political stunt to hurt the animal training industry and get more donations. Further, if you see that video as evidence of dogs abuse, then every one in America who has ever given their dog a bath is a dog abuser. You don't know the whole story, but you allowed yourself to be intentionally misled and you believed what you wanted to believe. Then YOU get on the internet and malign a good man. Shame on you sir. PETA tells you a pack of lies and then you get on the internet and bad mouth a good man that you don't even know. I've known that man for decades. He is a good trainer and a good person. He is one of the most gentle trainers around and so is the woman trainer who was in the pool calling the dog. Both of them are personal friends of mine, and the phony BS that you believed created a lot of problems for them that they did not deserve. Ignorance like what you've demonstrated here, continues to cause problems.

As far as independent monitoring by an outside source, we have that. The American Humane Association has been doing it for decades. We have another one that has been around for a few years now called MAP, Movie Animals Protected. The AHA and the county animal control both did and in-depth investigation of the above referenced dog incident and both declared that there had been absolutely no wrong-doing or abuse of any kind. American Humane had a rep on the set the day that film footage was taken by a crew member's phone and there was nothing in the report about abuse because there was none to report. I had a Humane rep on set with me today. She didn't have any abuse to report either. Just a happy dog doing what he loves doing.


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## dmmj (Jul 8, 2019)

So I remember PETA. Using a clip of the CGI dog jumping into the waterfall as "proof". That animals were working in unsafe conditions


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## SPILL (Jul 8, 2019)

Ben02 said:


> PETA releases videos on their YouTube account which involve an “inside man” working at petco/pet smart. They record and document what happens behind the scenes i.e living conditions and how the animals are treated.
> 
> These videos actually inspired me to create this thread and see all your opinions, very wide spectrum of opinions aswell which I’m really pleased of so thank you all for that.
> 
> ...


Was this the video with severing injured limbs and using glue traps usually used for mice to catch escapees? If so that was the wholesale breeder that sold to PetSmart so not animals that would ever be seen in the stores. I remember discussion on another board when the video first came out but never learned what came of it.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 9, 2019)

This thread has gotten a bit heated. I'm not the OP, but I don't think he intended for it to be a debate or either side trying to convince the other side of rightness or wrongness. You've all stated what the OP has wanted, and that is, how you feel about PETA. If you'd all like to debate the subject, start your own thread.


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