# Panacur



## Shaif (Aug 22, 2017)

Hi Friends.

My juvenile Ibera was recently constipated and ill. He's better now, but fecal showed pinworms (greater than 30/hpf).

I know treatment is advocated by some and considered unnecessary by some. I'm still weighing the options. 

If anyone has some experience, can you tell me the following:

1. Has anyone ever heard of reptile to human transmission? I stress hand washing like a crazy woman, but I have 2 young sons who help in our tort care. Hand washing and teeth brushing are questionable some days.

2. How do I treat the other torts on my enclosure? Must each baby (I have 5 total) be seen by the vet at $200 each? I keep meticulous records of weight and growth for each tort. Can I buy the panacur and dose with weight?

3. Is putting the Med in a strawberry the favorite method? My torts are still very small (50-150 grams). I doubt I can open their tiny mouths.


Thank you so much for any shared thoughts/insight/experience.


----------



## Gillian M (Aug 22, 2017)

Shaif said:


> Hi Friends.
> 
> My juvenile Ibera was recently constipated and ill. He's better now, but fecal showed pinworms (greater than 30/hpf).
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear that. And apologies I cannot help here. 

Let's tag members who can advise.

@Tidgy's Dad @JoesMum @Tom @Yvonne G @wellington would you please be kind enough to help, here. The issue seems to be serious.

Thank you all.


----------



## Tom (Aug 22, 2017)

Shaif said:


> Hi Friends.
> 
> My juvenile Ibera was recently constipated and ill. He's better now, but fecal showed pinworms (greater than 30/hpf).
> 
> ...



1. No. Never heard of this for pinworms. Most parasitic worms are fairly host specific. Unlikely to be able to jump from a reptile to a mammal. Pinworms are common in humans and other primates, but these are a different species of pinworm than those that infect a tortoise or other reptile.
2. You'll need to replace the substrate every week or two for a month or two during treatment. Yes, each of your tortoises will need to be dosed if they share the same space and have had any contact. Really no need to have them tested. Pinworm eggs can blow in or out on the wind, so if one has them, they are all likely to have them. Yes, you can buy and dose by weight. Different vets have different treatment protocols and intervals.
3. I would never give strawberry to any Testudo. All that sugar can really wreak havoc on their GI tract. I prefer to let the dose soak into a Mazuri pellet. I'll even skip feeding the day before to make sure they are famished and hungry when the medicated pellet gets placed in front of them. Personally, I prefer injectables for tortoises when possible and practical because it ensures they get the entire dose each and every time with no doubt whatsoever. What if the tortoise take a few bites, but then decides it doesn't like the taste of the med in the Mazuri? How much did they get? Is it enough? Should you offer more? Would that be too much? What if they refuse to eat it? With your background, you know the issues with partial doses.


----------



## Gillian M (Aug 22, 2017)

Tom said:


> 1. No. Never heard of this for pinworms. Most parasitic worms are fairly host specific. Unlikely to be able to jump from a reptile to a mammal. Pinworms are common in humans and other primates, but these are a different species of pinworm than those that infect a tortoise or other reptile.
> 2. You'll need to replace the substrate ever week or two for a month or two during treatment. Yes, each of your tortoises will need to be dosed if they share the same space and have had any contact. Really no need to have them tested. Pinworm eggs can blow in or out on the wind, so if one has them, they are all likely to have them. Yes, you can buy and dose by weight. Different vets have different treatment protocols and intervals.
> 3. I would never give strawberry to any Testudo. All that sugar can really wreak havoc on their GI tract. I prefer to let the dose soak into a Mazuri pellet. I'll even skip feeding the day before to make sure they are famished and hungry when the medicated pellet gets placed in front of them. Personally, I prefer injectables for tortoises when possible and practical because it ensures they get the entire dose each and every time with no doubt whatsoever. What if the tortoise take a few bites, but then decides it doesn't like the taste of the med in the Mazuri? How much did they get? Is it enough? Should you offer more? Would that be too much? What if they refuse to eat it? With your background, you know the issues with partial doses.


Thanks your help Tom.


----------



## wellington (Aug 22, 2017)

I have no experience with deworming, sorry can't offer much help except to say, I would put the torts on paper towels or newspaper while treating. Throw the old substrate out and replace it once all signs of worms are gone. Will save money on having to keep replacing substrats.


----------



## ZEROPILOT (Aug 22, 2017)

Tom said:


> 1. No. Never heard of this for pinworms. Most parasitic worms are fairly host specific. Unlikely to be able to jump from a reptile to a mammal. Pinworms are common in humans and other primates, but these are a different species of pinworm than those that infect a tortoise or other reptile.
> 2. You'll need to replace the substrate every week or two for a month or two during treatment. Yes, each of your tortoises will need to be dosed if they share the same space and have had any contact. Really no need to have them tested. Pinworm eggs can blow in or out on the wind, so if one has them, they are all likely to have them. Yes, you can buy and dose by weight. Different vets have different treatment protocols and intervals.
> 3. I would never give strawberry to any Testudo. All that sugar can really wreak havoc on their GI tract. I prefer to let the dose soak into a Mazuri pellet. I'll even skip feeding the day before to make sure they are famished and hungry when the medicated pellet gets placed in front of them. Personally, I prefer injectables for tortoises when possible and practical because it ensures they get the entire dose each and every time with no doubt whatsoever. What if the tortoise take a few bites, but then decides it doesn't like the taste of the med in the Mazuri? How much did they get? Is it enough? Should you offer more? Would that be too much? What if they refuse to eat it? With your background, you know the issues with partial doses.


I agree. Every animal can not be treated the same way. 
Also, every tube of Panacur can be of a different strength. (Like the type meant for treating horses, etc.) It is best to get the dosage and strength needed from a vet initially.


----------



## Markw84 (Aug 22, 2017)

Shaif said:


> Hi Friends.
> 
> My juvenile Ibera was recently constipated and ill. He's better now, but fecal showed pinworms (greater than 30/hpf).
> 
> ...


As I outlined in your other post - Panacur, Fenbendazole, has an extremely wide safety margin. So go ahead and treat if you are concerned. Also, as mentioned there, constipation is one of the effects an overload of pinworms can cause.

1 As @Tom mentions, pinworms are host specific. The ones tortoises can get can not transfer to humans. In fact, the ones dogs get cannot transfer to humans either! Most MD's don't seem to know this as it is commonly warned if a child gets pinworms to look at the pet dog!!!

2 Any vet I settle on using will deal with me on a "herd" treatment basis once I describe to the vet what I want. I will take in a representative animal for the normal vet fees, exam fees, and to establish a relationship. I can then take in fecal samples for any others I need for a simple check. Medication can be prescribed for the group as well. I do buy Panacur online, so I don't go to my vet for that. I do my own fecal tests and go to the vet when I see something I want confirmed. And since Panacur has been tested and proven to be safe even at 50 times the recommended dose, I have no problem dosing it myself.

3 I use Mazuri. One of the things I like about Mazuri, is all my tortoises love it and eat it eagerly. The amounts of Panacur you use for a small tortoise is small. PLEASE CONFIRM WITH YOUR VET. But the standard dose I use for tortoises is 50mg / kg of tortoise weight. All the Panacur I see sold and used is 10%. Repeat after 2 weeks. I simply use some soft (moistened) Mazuri and drop on the dose and mix in. After a soak, they are used to eating. I place that in front of an individual tortoise and they will eat it eagerly.


----------



## KevinGG (Aug 22, 2017)

Markw84 said:


> As I outlined in your other post - Panacur, Fenbendazole, has an extremely wide safety margin. So go ahead and treat if you are concerned. Also, as mentioned there, constipation is one of the effects an overload of pinworms can cause.
> 
> 1 As @Tom mentions, pinworms are host specific. The ones tortoises can get can not transfer to humans. In fact, the ones dogs get cannot transfer to humans either! Most MD's don't seem to know this as it is commonly warned if a child gets pinworms to look at the pet dog!!!
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing Mark. Where do you buy your Panacur?


----------



## Shaif (Aug 23, 2017)

Tom said:


> 1. No. Never heard of this for pinworms. Most parasitic worms are fairly host specific. Unlikely to be able to jump from a reptile to a mammal. Pinworms are common in humans and other primates, but these are a different species of pinworm than those that infect a tortoise or other reptile.
> 2. You'll need to replace the substrate every week or two for a month or two during treatment. Yes, each of your tortoises will need to be dosed if they share the same space and have had any contact. Really no need to have them tested. Pinworm eggs can blow in or out on the wind, so if one has them, they are all likely to have them. Yes, you can buy and dose by weight. Different vets have different treatment protocols and intervals.
> 3. I would never give strawberry to any Testudo. All that sugar can really wreak havoc on their GI tract. I prefer to let the dose soak into a Mazuri pellet. I'll even skip feeding the day before to make sure they are famished and hungry when the medicated pellet gets placed in front of them. Personally, I prefer injectables for tortoises when possible and practical because it ensures they get the entire dose each and every time with no doubt whatsoever. What if the tortoise take a few bites, but then decides it doesn't like the taste of the med in the Mazuri? How much did they get? Is it enough? Should you offer more? Would that be too much? What if they refuse to eat it? With your background, you know the issues with partial doses.





Thank you so so very much, Tom. This is very helpful.

And I've been worrying about the same thing you mentioned about dosing. There is no way to ensure that each tort gets the correct dose orally. But I'm very nervous to inject such tiny torts. Did you use a small insulin needle? Can you buy injectable panacur?

Thank you again!


----------



## Shaif (Aug 23, 2017)

Markw84 said:


> As I outlined in your other post - Panacur, Fenbendazole, has an extremely wide safety margin. So go ahead and treat if you are concerned. Also, as mentioned there, constipation is one of the effects an overload of pinworms can cause.
> 
> 1 As @Tom mentions, pinworms are host specific. The ones tortoises can get can not transfer to humans. In fact, the ones dogs get cannot transfer to humans either! Most MD's don't seem to know this as it is commonly warned if a child gets pinworms to look at the pet dog!!!
> 
> ...





As usual, your post is incredibly helpful.

I actually asked the infectious disease specialist in my hospital about human transmission. We both needed to look it up to reassure ourselves! So yes, you are correct, many docs don't know much about these organisms.

Sadly, I think my vet is uncomfortable with the "herd" idea. He wants to see and test all of my torts. This seems silly to me. But I'll call him again today and plead my case. Worst case scenario, I'll go rogue and treat on my own. 


Thank you so much.


----------



## Shaif (Aug 23, 2017)

wellington said:


> I have no experience with deworming, sorry can't offer much help except to say, I would put the torts on paper towels or newspaper while treating. Throw the old substrate out and replace it once all signs of worms are gone. Will save money on having to keep replacing substrats.




Thank you! I'll do this for sure.


----------



## KevinGG (Aug 23, 2017)

Shaif said:


> As usual, your post is incredibly helpful.
> 
> I actually asked the infectious disease specialist in my hospital about human transmission. We both needed to look it up to reassure ourselves! So yes, you are correct, many docs don't know much about these organisms.
> 
> ...



You could probably just bring in fecals as Mark suggested. I'd think this would ease his mind.


----------



## Markw84 (Aug 23, 2017)

KevinGG said:


> Thanks for sharing Mark. Where do you buy your Panacur?


 I like the liquid, oral suspension. Fenbendazole as active ingredient. Normally sold for dogs online. Lots of online availability as it is not a prescription item. Just search Panacur. You also can get it at most feed stores.


----------



## Shaif (Aug 23, 2017)

Online I'm finding 10% paste. Does anyone know where to buy the liquid for a reasonable price? Liquid seems like it would be easier to administer?


----------



## Shaif (Aug 23, 2017)

Markw84 said:


> I like the liquid, oral suspension. Fenbendazole as active ingredient. Normally sold for dogs online. Lots of online availability as it is not a prescription item. Just search Panacur. You also can get it at most feed stores.




Ok. Perfect-- thank you!


----------



## Markw84 (Aug 23, 2017)

Shaif said:


> Online I'm finding 10% paste. Does anyone know where to buy the liquid for a reasonable price? Liquid seems like it would be easier to administer?


https://www.bestvetcare.com/panacur-oral-suspension-for-cats/wormers-treatment-312.aspx


----------



## Shaif (Aug 23, 2017)

Markw84 said:


> https://www.bestvetcare.com/panacur-oral-suspension-for-cats/wormers-treatment-312.aspx




Brilliant!!! Thank you tons!


----------



## Shaif (Aug 23, 2017)

I just wanted to thank you all again. I know I bug many of you...a lot. But your kindness and effort to help me and my torts is not ever taken for granted.
Thanks for explaining, for teaching, and for sharing.


----------



## Gillian M (Aug 25, 2017)

Shaif said:


> I just wanted to thank you all again. I know I bug many of you...a lot. But your kindness and effort to help me and my torts is not ever taken for granted.
> Thanks for explaining, for teaching, and for sharing.


Anything new as far as your tort is concerned?

Hope to hear good news.


----------



## Shaif (Aug 25, 2017)

Gillian Moore said:


> Anything new as far as your tort is concerned?
> 
> Hope to hear good news.



Thank you, Gillian!

With the help of you and the others on this thread, I have ordered the Panacur online. 

But I'm so happy to report that all are acting normally now and my Zeus is back to his baseline! I'm now trying to feed and hydrate the torts as much as I can in anticipation of some anorexia after I treat.

I'm not looking forward to changing all that substrate--it's a daunting task, but new coir bricks have also been purchased. I'll put them on paper towels for the 2 weeks of treatment. 


Thank you! I hope your Ollie is doing great and that you are staying somewhat cool!


----------



## Shaif (Sep 17, 2017)

O. My. Word.

I treated the torts 11 days ago. The bowel movements they are passing are the stuff of NIGHTMARES! Worms. I can't even share a pic, it's too gross.

I've removed all the substrate. There is some scattered sphagnum moss that I keep changing out every 2 days, and I'm picking up fecal "presents" as soon as I can.

Here's my plan:
It seems these torts have a pretty bad case--judging by the parasite load being demonstrated. I have removed hides and plants. I'll replace them after 4 weeks. The eggs can live outside the host for up to 3 weeks, so that's why I picked 4.
I'm also sterilizing the soaking bins after every soak and the food plates each night.
I'm going to dose 3 times. Once every 12-14 days. This is longer than most recommendations I have come across. But, when you consider that reinfestation could happen easily with these eggs, I think the third dose makes sense.

The torts seem to be tolerating the medicine quite well. I placed each one in their separate soak bin and put each dose in the tort's favorite food. I kept them in the bins until the dose was completely ingested. 

If any of my thoughts seem incorrect or you have experience to share, I welcome the feedback. This is certainly a learning curve for me.

Thanks?
S


----------



## Shaif (Sep 17, 2017)

Shaif said:


> O. My. Word.
> 
> I treated the torts 11 days ago. The bowel movements they are passing are the stuff of NIGHTMARES! Worms. I can't even share a pic, it's too gross.
> 
> ...




That should say:

Thanks!
S


----------

