# Input on Genetics -Advanced Herp Keepers



## N2TORTS (Jun 23, 2013)

I wanted to post this to get some other thoughts from some of the more experienced breeders familiar with genetics. *PLEASE* restrain from opinions of you agree /like or donâ€™t agree / dis-like the hypo gene. I donâ€™t want opinions and this is not what this thread is about. Rather it be Chelonians , Snakes , Lizardsâ€¦.most genetic rules apply. So my question is â€¦.as you know I have had a great year producing Hypos this year with the addition of the new Hypo female 2 years back. Now that last/this year I have had both females impregnated by the same Hypo male. Both have laid and hatched out clutches more than once, I can start to see familiarities with gene codes and or possible coding. Understanding the hypo gene is a recessive co- dominate trait that will result in the lack of black pigment and in most cases- brings in a more vibrant red, orange, yellows and browns. Gemmaâ€™s babies and the latest â€œSnow Hatchling she producedâ€ is by far the 
" whitest tortoise" I have ever seen even more so than an albino. I believe this occurred as the result of breeding the two recessive traits Albino x Hypo which she must posses in her genetic makeup, as her babies are very different looking than the other hypos produced from the same father/ different Hypo mother combo. It is has been proven with other reptile species breeding these two recessive gene codes will produceâ€œwhiterâ€ coloring more so than albinoâ€™s, along with the very groovy and must unique looking purplish/grey skin, some animals even have a "pearl" effect. Even head scales retain purple hues thru-out. 
Whatâ€™s your thoughts?

JD~


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## StudentoftheReptile (Jun 23, 2013)

I'm not a big expert on herp genetics (intermediate, I suppose)...but from what I understand of those genes, that makes sense.

My issue lies in how there is no continuity among the labeling of these mutations (morphs, whatever one calls them). For example, what is called a "snow" for one species is not achieved the same way for that of another [Ex: snow leopard geckos, snow boas, snow bullsnakes and snow corns, if I recall, are all bred from different genes].


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## N2TORTS (Jun 23, 2013)

StudentoftheReptile said:


> I'm not a big expert on herp genetics (intermediate, I suppose)...but from what I understand of those genes, that makes sense.
> 
> My issue lies in how there is no continuity among the labeling of these mutations (morphs, whatever one calls them). For example, what is called a "snow" for one species is not achieved the same way for that of another [Ex: snow leopard geckos, snow boas, snow bullsnakes and snow corns, if I recall, are all bred from different genes].



I was hoping you would pop in.... And your exactly on the same page. With my experience in breeding snakes like you have mentioned....well that " gene" ...that we are talking about ( rather in Geckos , Boas ect. ) started with some sort of a Hypo X Albino= thus producing the " extra white" gene code.; The snow boa is whiter than the albino boa and lacks all red pigment, replacing it with a silvery shade of white instead.Or another example -The Sunglow is a dual morph combination that is heterozygous for hypo and homozygous for albino. This boa is very similar looking to the albion boa but the hypo trait gives it a much more vibrant reds and pinks hinting at the name sunglow.In order to produce this boa you would need to cross a hypo-het albion with an albino or het albino.
Then of course if you took two of those "X-white" and bred them I bet you would consistently hatch out all " white" hatchlings that has that X-white gene code existing in the animal. Much like the Hypo x Hypo = 100% hypo visuals every time.
Whadda ya think?.....


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## Millerlite (Jun 23, 2013)

In leopard geckos there were Mack snows which were white and banded much like a normal leopard except just all white with black patterns, anywho they made these "Mack snows" and bred Mack's with Mack's and actually started to change a lot of the Mack snow features and just like that Mack snows were not a stable "morph" 

And snow and a snow = another snow? Idk I believe it can produce snows, whiter (less pattern) and change in that way. Also snakes and lizards breed a lot faster as far and first gen to second gen this can play a role I would guess. I'm not huge on genetics yet, but do find it interesting. And hopefully more experienced in genetics can shed more light down 

Ps if your hypos get any whiter might need to call them ghost Redfoots


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## N2TORTS (Jun 23, 2013)

I already do ... "THE WEST COAST GHOST"


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## Millerlite (Jun 23, 2013)

N2TORTS said:


> I already do ... "THE WEST COAST GHOST"



I like it lol


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## bothrops (Jun 27, 2013)

Hi,

I'm new to the forum but not new to reptiles or genetics. I've found my way here as I was asked on another forum to help explain the genetics of their hypo het albino redfoot.

I am not familiar with this mutation and when researching if hypo was a recessive, dominant or codominant mutation and confirming that albino was recessive as it is in most other animals, my googling led me here.

N2TORT - you seem to be the person to talk to regarding hypo and albino in redfoots! Therefore I've joined so I can pick your brains.



I see you've classed the hypo gene as a 'recessive codominant' and that is leading to a certain level of confusion, so I wonder if you could clarify?


Mutations of genes (alleles) are not classified as 'recessive' in their own right. The terms 'recessive' 'dominant' etc only refer to their relationship with other alleles. Therefore 'albino' isn't strictly a 'recessive mutation' but more accurately the albino allele is 'recessive to the wildtype allele'.

Some genes/alleles are recessive to some alleles but codominant with others (e.g the 'daddy' gene in royal pythons that is recessive to normal but codominant to lesser). 


I _think_ that from what I can work out:

hypo = recessive to normal

so het hypo looks normal, homozygous hypo = hypo phenotype


albino = recessive to normal

so het albino looks normal, homozygous albino = albino phenotype.



However, you've mated animals that possess combinations of hypo and albino genes and you think that hypo and albino are codominant with each other creating a third phenotype (the super bright white that you've named 'snow'?)


Have I got that right or am I barking up the wrong tree?



If you wouldn't mind, could you describe the genetic relationship between hypo and normal and between albino and normal, and then what happened with your breeding that produced the extra white animal (genetics of both parents and description of the entire litters phenotypes)?


Hope you don''t mind my sticking my 'noobie' oar in here!

Regards

Andy


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## Madkins007 (Jun 27, 2013)

Something that may or may not affect breeding or coding is that tortoises are known to be able to store and mix sperm for up to three years. I think this would put a lot of documentation demands on the breeder trying to chart things.


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## N2TORTS (Jun 27, 2013)

Madkins007 said:


> Something that may or may not affect breeding or coding is that tortoises are known to be able to store and mix sperm for up to three years. I think this would put a lot of documentation demands on the breeder trying to chart things.



Actually Mark .... I have had the hypo project going since 06'

and it's ... very SELECTIVE*


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## Millerlite (Jun 27, 2013)

Madkins007 said:


> Something that may or may not affect breeding or coding is that tortoises are known to be able to store and mix sperm for up to three years. I think this would put a lot of documentation demands on the breeder trying to chart things.



Tortoises arnt the only type of animal to do this, I believe some snakes store sperm for up to 5 years, and a few species of birds are thought to too. But your right probably plays a roll in all these genetics


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## haidao88 (Jun 28, 2013)

I cannot wait to get one or two of those from you... Everything's going well hopefully by next year I'll be able to have another enclosure setup... Hypos are amazing 


My tortoise Peach hates apples
Mario loves Peaches 
0.0.2 redfoot


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## bothrops (Jun 29, 2013)

Sperm storage could certainly make things more complicated!


However, its always best to start with the simplest explanation and then test it. If that proves to be incorrect, or something strange happens, then we could look for a more complicated one.


Of course at the moment, I'm still in the dark regarding the simple explanation!

Would anyone care to enlighten me?


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