# SHELL AND NERVE QUESTION



## wellington (Feb 23, 2013)

Okay, I am considering the source of where I heard this. I was watching Jack Hanna. He was talking about and showing Galops. He said that tortoises shells are filled with millions of nerves running all through it and is very painful if injured, damaged, etc. Is this true? Is it the shell, like in top layer and all the way through, or is it more like a few layers under the outer layers?
I don't recall ever hearing this. Got me thinking of the shell rot we have seen from different members. Wouldn't that be terribly painful? Are the nerves lower/below the keratin? Could this be why some act like they hate to be scratched on their shell? Their nerves are too close to the surface? With the drilling of holes through the shells to tether a tortoise, like used to be done and in some places maybe still, wouldn't that be so cruel and painful? I never really thought that the shell had any feeling senses, but that they could feel through their shell.


Sorry, I guess I rambled a little and jammed a lot in. I must have not taken a breath


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## RedfootsRule (Feb 23, 2013)

You bring up an interesting discussion. I've heard the same, but I don't know where EXACTLY its located. But I know its not in the upper levels of keratin. I think it runs underneath all of that, to sense vibrations IN the keratin, therefore outside the tortoise. I could be wrong though.
BUT, if you have ever seen the inside of a tortoises' shell, the whole top of the shell is the back-bone/spine, which is where the nerves would all connect to. So, likely, I think the assertion would be correct that its under it all.
I heard one that a tortoises' shell is 10 times more sensitive then the human fingertip...I believe it, because skittish torts can sense us coming before we see them.
I don't believe shell fungus or rot is exactly painful, at least in a non-extreme form. In the extremities of shell-rot, I would bet they feel it....


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## wellington (Feb 23, 2013)

He made it sound like the nerves were all throughout the shell. Making it sound like they were just under the first layer and on down. It really didn't make sense to me, that they would be so close to the outer layer, but I too don't know and really do t remember ever hearing anything about nerves in the shells. I have never seen the inside of a tort shell. If you have one, you should try and take pics of the inside. I would love to see what it looks like.


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## RedfootsRule (Feb 23, 2013)

Unfortunately, I don't have one anymore...But I've seen quite a few. There should be some pics on the internet.

But, I had a female sulcata once who's shell was slightly deformed because of some extra scutes. One kind of stuck out in the back...It got rubbed off when she was mated. Rubbed down quite far; I got a good look at those first few layers, and there were no nerves. In the wild, they get scarred, scratched, etc. all the time...Its not under just that first layer. I would imagine its collected together with the spinal cord, probably underneath the innermost layer to sense vibrations from the outside. Running in the inside just wouldn't be logical.


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## wellington (Feb 23, 2013)

Yes, that sounds much more practical. They would be in pain all the time if it were too close to the outer layers, I would think.


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## RedfootsRule (Feb 23, 2013)

I was trying to link an image for you but it won't come up....I could get a pic of the inside of a water turtle shell for you though...


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## wellington (Feb 23, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> I was trying to link an image for you but it won't come up....I could get a pic of the inside of a water turtle shell for you though...



That would be appreciated. Thanks


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## MaggieofNarnia (Feb 24, 2013)

Hm, well, I'm going to use deductive reasoning from what I've learned through class and through this website. 
The turtles shell is similar to our backs. It is a bone. When we break a bone, it hurts (Most of the time. My dad broke both front hands and neither hurt) The spine runs through the bottom of the shell and inside the spine is the spinal chord, a central nerve that leads to other nerves. Those other nerves run out from the spinal chord across the rest of the body. Since the carapace is part of the skeletal structure, I wouldn't think that nerves run through the skeleton, but under it. At least, that is not something I've heard of before. The shell protects the nervous system and the spinal cord much like our vertebra protect out spinal cord.

Keep in mind this is an educated guess at 1:34 in the morning during the first day of midterms week. I could be completely wrong, but I am going off of what I know. Turtles surprise me sometimes. 

I tried to look up a picture of the turtle nervous system, but I couldn't find it. I'll do some research tomorrow. I've got some books that have a TON of information on this kind of stuff that may be helpful.


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## Tortus (Feb 25, 2013)

Maybe it's just the way this pic looks, but it appears the spine is detached from the carapace. Or at least runs a bit deeper.







I always wondered if the spine pyramids along with the shell.


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## wellington (Feb 25, 2013)

MaggieofNarnia said:


> Hm, well, I'm going to use deductive reasoning from what I've learned through class and through this website.
> The turtles shell is similar to our backs. It is a bone. When we break a bone, it hurts (Most of the time. My dad broke both front hands and neither hurt) The spine runs through the bottom of the shell and inside the spine is the spinal chord, a central nerve that leads to other nerves. Those other nerves run out from the spinal chord across the rest of the body. Since the carapace is part of the skeletal structure, I wouldn't think that nerves run through the skeleton, but under it. At least, that is not something I've heard of before. The shell protects the nervous system and the spinal cord much like our vertebra protect out spinal cord.
> 
> Keep in mind this is an educated guess at 1:34 in the morning during the first day of midterms week. I could be completely wrong, but I am going off of what I know. Turtles surprise me sometimes.
> ...



LOL. I think you 1:34 a.m. Educated guess is pretty good 




Tortus said:


> Maybe it's just the way this pic looks, but it appears the spine is detached from the carapace. Or at least runs a bit deeper.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the pic. I thought I read on here that the spine did pyramid along with the shell, but I can't remember 100% .


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## Madkins007 (Feb 25, 2013)

Looking in Thomson's "Anatomy of the Tortoise' and in Mader's "Reptile Medicine and Surgery", I cannot find any reference to nerves in the bone of the carapace itself, or between the carapace and the scutes. The underside of the carapace is rich in muscles, nerves, blood vessels, etc., but not in or 'above' the bone. 

As far as the spine goes- it fuses to the carapace from the shoulder blades to the pelvis- the carapace is actually made from the vertebra and ribs. 

This picture shows how deeply integrated the vertebrae and ribs are with the carapace-


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## wellington (Feb 26, 2013)

Madkins007 said:


> Looking in Thomson's "Anatomy of the Tortoise' and in Mader's "Reptile Medicine and Surgery", I cannot find any reference to nerves in the bone of the carapace itself, or between the carapace and the scutes. The underside of the carapace is rich in muscles, nerves, blood vessels, etc., but not in or 'above' the bone.
> 
> As far as the spine goes- it fuses to the carapace from the shoulder blades to the pelvis- the carapace is actually made from the vertebra and ribs.
> 
> This picture shows how deeply integrated the vertebrae and ribs are with the carapace-



So it looks like the phrase I made of "considering the source" of who I heard say this was correct His info so far I have found to be incorrect on several occasions. Thanks for the info and pic. Always so glad I found TFO.


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## DesertGrandma (Feb 26, 2013)

Interesting thread.


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