# "I see pyramiding"



## Alaskamike (Sep 23, 2014)

I decided to put this in debatable topics because I suppose there are many opinions on this. 
This is about a pet peeve of mine that is growing as I become more involved in reading posts and sharing with members – both new and experienced. More than once, I’ve seen comments on pictures – especially a new person’s post that say …

“I see pyramiding”

It irritates me. Okay, so you see pyramiding, so what? What are you trying to accomplish with a stand alone comment like this? It comes across as snide, self-righteous, and just plain mean.

I’ve not been a member of the forum for long, but have been raising torts for some time as pets. Seems I always had one kind or another, especially when I was young. 
My first Sulcata was a rescue, and he was very pyramided. Way back then we thought it was solely because of an improper to much protien diet and did not understand the humidity needs, especially during the growth spurts. I did get that he needed constant water available, but never thought to soak him. Though he seemed to be healthy, the damage was done to his shell, and could not be reversed. He ended up getting a good home and is still there doing fine today some 15 years later. 

My other peeve with the pyramiding subject is how it has become the benchmark for appropriate husbandry of our tortoises. There is so much emphasis on this that many other important issues seem to pale in comparison. No matter what picture is posted it seems the first thing people want to comment on is the smoothness ( or lack thereof) of the shell, as if this is the end all – be all – of a healthy tort. This perpetuates this obsession with the “perfect shell” and creates a panic in new owners who see even the slightest bit of bumpiness on the shell. Is this really the issue we are making it out to be? Has no one ever seen a perfectly fine and healthy tort with some pyramiding on the shell? This actually happens in the wild also, though I do not have any photos of this, I did see it in Kenya with a wild Sulcata. It has also been reported with Leopards.

The pride that I see in those with torts with perfectly smooth shells is really excessive. And I believe that it is doing a disservice to new people who are doing their best but either got a tort with pyramiding already started or just don’t know any better till they join the forum. I think advice is great, but do we really need to throw neebees into a panic of guilt? 

I am certain more new people would post pics of their more mature torts but are worried about the comments.

Please people, at the very least, stop the “I see pyramiding” stand alone comments. It’s rude. "I see stupid people" all the time, but I know better than to comment on it like that.


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## Robertchrisroph (Sep 23, 2014)

I think its just people want the best for tortoise. I don't think they want to hurt anyone feelings.


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## Jason-AfricanSpined (Sep 23, 2014)

Thank you Alaskamike,
I am new to raising tortoises and mine is a rescue after 10+ years of mis-care. My guys shell does show serious signs of neglect but I am doing my best to take care of him and this article was a great find.


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## Team Gomberg (Sep 23, 2014)

I can agree with you about the initial pyramiding comments and the way it comes across.

I've made it a personal point of mine not to comment on pyramiding or dry/humid husbandry unless they ask. I don't know what they already know and I do feel it is rude to assume they don't know anything.

So, when a newbie posts a photo of a small Leopard with pyramiding I might say something like, "cute little tort. How are you raising him? "
This puts the ball in their court to ask for advice or share what they know.
Some replies come back explaining that they use humidity now...etc. Some replies come back explaining they are still seeking advice. At that point I know my advice is welcome and will share the humid aspect of raising them while still touching on other areas of proper husbandry.


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## wellington (Sep 23, 2014)

I feel it is important to help point out pyramiding and follow up with how to start growing smoother. A lot of people have no,idea that tortoises are suppose to be smooth. Wouldn't it be nice if one day, all tortoises were smooth? This forum is to help new owners to learn the proper way to raise a tortoise, not just poo poo it off and say only nice things. That doesn't help anyone and there is another forum that will cover that end. This forum, thankfully educates people. My tortoises are also pyramided, found this place too late. They are healthy, but they don't look like what they are suppose too. 
As for the wild sullys and leopards pyramided, that has been gone over several times a few years back. I don't remember the exact wording, but basically, the pyramided ones, are most likely pets let go.
I don't believe I have ever just said your tort is pyramided, without offering suggestions. I will point it out every time, and I will continue to do so. So, fair warning, don't read my post. 
I will also point newbies to the right threads to read and make any suggestions right away on what they have wrong, yes even their intro thread. You never know when they will come back and ask, or if ever and you have no idea what or where they did any research.
Many members don't come back, they are here to ask one question, or they come once in a while just to read, not post. Educate them while they are here. Besides, it's the tortoise that pays if we don't.


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## wellington (Sep 23, 2014)

Team Gomberg said:


> I can agree with you about the initial pyramiding comments and the way it comes across.
> 
> I've made it a personal point of mine not to comment on pyramiding or dry/humid husbandry unless they ask. I don't know what they already know and I do feel it is rude to assume they don't know anything.
> 
> ...



I don't agree Heather. If they don't come back, the tortoise pays. Too many members, since I joined, which wasn't just recently, have thanked the members of this forum for informing them of what they were doing wrong and it has been done, since I joined, probably before, at the moment you see a pic. Never know when another chance will arise.


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## leigti (Sep 23, 2014)

If a person is taking care of their tortoise to the best of their knowledge or has received a tortoise with issues it may be very disheartening to hear about it after you make your first post. Sometimes it seems like only pictures of "pretty" tortoises are truly welcome. others are met with a stream of comments about what is wrong with the tortoise.Ido agree that information and suggestions should be offered but if it iis accusatory or preachy the person will not come back.


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## littleginsu (Sep 23, 2014)

I completely understand what you are saying Alaskamike and perhaps the subject of pyramiding could be broached more diplomatically. I disagree about the notion that pyramiding is not a vehicle of poor care. Pyramiding is not a chronic, unavoidable disease and is indicative of poor husbandry whether from the current or previous owner... and a logical deduction is there could very well be other health concerns or ailments that we cannot detect without extensive tests, as tortoises are masters at concealing illness. 

So, while a bumpy or smooth shell is not necessarily the end all be all, it certainly is an indicator that some variables need adjustment in order to ensure an overall healthy tortoise.


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## johnsonnboswell (Sep 23, 2014)

Often someone posts a picture of their animal asking how it looks. Often they suspect there is a problem but they're not sure. I take that as an invitation to make the observation that I see pyramiding or growth irregularities when I do. It's not a condemnation of husbandry practice on my part, it's an observation of what I see. 

If someone were to post a picture but didn't ask, I'd probably stay mum. 

Why is the pyramiding observation worse than commenting on substrate or dryness or other habitat problems? An implied criticism of care?


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## wellington (Sep 23, 2014)

leigti said:


> If a person is taking care of their tortoise to the best of their knowledge or has received a tortoise with issues it may be very disheartening to hear about it after you make your first post. Sometimes it seems like only pictures of "pretty" tortoises are truly welcome. others are met with a stream of comments about what is wrong with the tortoise.Ido agree that information and suggestions should be offered but if it iis accusatory or preachy the person will not come back.



There are actually more pictures of pyramided tortosies posted then not. It's not a matter off pretty or not. It's a matter of health.


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## Tom (Sep 23, 2014)

Why are you here Mike? Simple question.


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## wellington (Sep 23, 2014)

I actually dislike the opposite of this thread. A person posts a pic of a tort or enclosure and everyone poo, poos it, says how cute s/he is, or how nice the enclosure looks, totally leading the person on to thinking everything is okay. While the whole time, everyone is avoiding what is wrong and unhealthy for the tortoise.
I'm here to learn how to better care for my tortoises and to pass on what I have learned. Not to make friends and have smoke blown where it doesn't belong, while the whole time my tort could be suffering. If I make friends along the way, which I have, that's great. If I offend people, don't mean to, will apologize, but not my biggest concern. The concern is to better the life of tortoises, period. There are too many bad sites out there poo pooing things along. I didn't come and stay here for that. I also would have liked my leopard to look like a leopard is suppose too. 
You wouldnt want to buy a purebred big money German Shepard that has hair like a Puli. Does corded hair make him unhealthy, probably not. Is a pyramided tortoise unhealthy, could vary well be and continue to be if correct information is not given to the care taker of that tortoise. It's worked fine since I have joined and for many years before that!


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## leigti (Sep 23, 2014)

I don't think that commenting on pyramiding is any different than commenting on dryness, water bowls, etc.it does seem to be one of the most obvious indications of care issues past or present. But I would hope that before any of us starts commenting we TRY to remember what it was like to be new and either not having a clue or not realizing that we were doing something wrong due to poor information we have received somewhere else.I read quite a few forum type websites before I realized this one was the best. I just think a little kindness and understanding can go along way.


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## wellington (Sep 23, 2014)

leigti said:


> I don't think that commenting on pyramiding is any different than commenting on dryness, water bowls, etc.it does seem to be one of the most obvious indications of care issues past or present. But I would hope that before any of us starts commenting we TRY to remember what it was like to be new and either not having a clue or not realizing that we were doing something wrong due to poor information we have received somewhere else.I read quite a few forum type websites before I realized this one was the best. I just think a little kindness and understanding can go along way.




I agree on trying to be as nice about it as possible. However, don't poo poo them, when you know the tort is paying for that bad advice. Let them know right away. Again, who knows when or if they will come back. Some not for weeks, some months, some only when they are trying to sell or buy something. I do remember when I was new and thankfully, I was told the right way of doing things. Pyramiding, is not the right thing, it's not natural, it's due to our lack of knowledge or ignorance or neglect and in some cases still today, by breeders that know better, pure laziness. The owner has the right to know the kind of harm they are doing to their tort, to most likely no fault of their own.


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## Alaskamike (Sep 23, 2014)

Tom said:


> Why are you here Mike? Simple question.


I guess I'll answer this one Tom, since directed to me. I enjoy learning and sharing - both. Plus torts have always intrigued me since a boy. 

I think what you imply is that learning and sharing are the purpose of the forum. Nothing in my initial post disagrees with either goal. 

My objection is the attitude in which it is done. That is all. 

I do not disagree with sharing info, teaching, research, and celebrating success. Explaining why we do what we do. I just have read several posts recently that came across as rude, self righteous and judgmental. 

That is all I point out.


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## Tom (Sep 23, 2014)

leigti said:


> But I would hope that before any of us starts commenting we TRY to remember what it was like to be new and either not having a clue or not realizing that we were doing something wrong due to poor information we have received somewhere else.



I _*DO*_ remember what being ignorant and being taught the _wrong_ information was like. It was awful. Frustrating, infuriating, confusing, etc... I almost quit keeping tortoises entirely because _*NOTHING*_ "they" said worked. My tortoises suffered the consequences of my (and their) ignorance. I feel a tremendous sense of guilt over what I have done in the past. There are those who say it wasn't my fault. I was just doing what the books, vets, breeders, and "experts" said to do. Still, _*I*_ am the one who did it. It is this guilt that drives me to help the people who have not yet learned what I have learned. I want to help them save their tortoises from the same fate that mine were subjected to and I want to do it as early as possible. In the case of hatchlings and small babies, even one day can mean the difference between life and death. I agree that the effort needs to be made to be tactful and considerate, but _*MOST*_ important to me, is getting the info across ASAP.

On that note, yes, if all else is good, pyramiding can be described as a cosmetic flaw in an otherwise healthy tortoise, _*BUT*_ pyramiding is an indicator that something in the husbandry is off. Pyramiding can be a visual indicator that the tortoise is being kept in too dry of an environment and not being well hydrated enough. While pyramiding may be cosmetic, the things that cause and contribute to it can be life threatening to the tortoise.

So should we pussyfoot around and coddle people's feelings at the expense of a tortoises health? I say no. No we should not. Should we try to deliver this message to beginners and new people in a polite, friendly and tactful way? Yes. Absolutely.


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## Tom (Sep 23, 2014)

Alaskamike said:


> I enjoy learning and sharing - both. Plus torts have always intrigued me since a boy.



It seems we are here for the same reasons.

It also seems like you were attempting to point out a bit more than rudeness, but if that was your intent, we share the goal of reducing or eliminating rudeness too. If my goal is to help tortoises, rudeness does not accomplish that.

Attitude adjustment is one thing, and its one thing we agree upon.

Pyramiding, how it happens, what it means to each of us, and what we do and say about it, is another discussion entirely, I think.


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## leigti (Sep 23, 2014)

Tom said:


> Why are you here Mike? Simple question.


I don't quite understand the purpose or point of this question, sorry Tom.


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## littleginsu (Sep 23, 2014)

Leigti, I obviously do not speak for Tom... I think it was semi-rhetorical to illustrate that we are all here to learn from each other.


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## Team Gomberg (Sep 23, 2014)

I want to get the focus off the newbie posters and point out this example..

A fellow posted a photo of his adult sized Redfoot tortoise soaking in a mud hole. A darling picture too... But a very pyramided Redfoot. Right away he was hounded with multiple posts on how much pyramiding the tort had and what he needed to do to "fix it". He came back to the thread to explain that he knew very well how to raise them properly but this particular one was an adult rescue now living the good life.. He simply wanted to share the cute mud photo. If I remember correctly, he shared additional photos on the habitats, other smooth torts he had raised and was very offended that all anyone could focus on in his post was the pyramiding and etc...kinda like what mike is referring to with this thread.
Although I don't know if I could find the thread again....it was this thread that caused me to change my approach with pyramiding here on TFO. 

I hear you @wellington that your trying to speak up while you have the chance to...but I also think that more flies come to sugar than vinegar so, I personally ask for info first... 
It could be a very knowledgeable, respectable person sharing a photo of a rescue tort and I don't want to fly off disrespectfully at them tooting my own horn.

By us taking our different approaches people will still be reached. Those with tough skin will take well to the advice head on..those that need a more gentle approach will take well to those who, maybe like me, feel them out first.


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## wellington (Sep 24, 2014)

I can agree Heather, more then one way of approaching, will hopefully get the correct info to everyone. I don't see it as tooting our own horn though. I don't see it as being righteous. I see it as only spreading the correct info that we have learned ourselves from this forum. What I don't understand, are the newbies that get offended. We have no clue when they post a pic of a pyramided tortoise that they actually know the proper way of raising them. I would bet most of them think they know, but are doing it the wrong way. Newbies need to understand, when they join a forum, we know nothing about them. However, if they have lurked on here at all, they can learn a lot about us. I believe first and foremost, concern for the tortoise comes first, himans feelings second. I also agree that it should be done politely, but at the first chance you get. Unfortunately, there is another forum, most of us probably know about. If left to them to educate people, well, lets just say, they educate no one, poo poo bad husbandry and tortoises would not be growing smooth.


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## Tom (Sep 24, 2014)

leigti said:


> I don't quite understand the purpose or point of this question, sorry Tom.



The purpose and point was to gain insight into why Mike is here on this forum. His answer would direct the course of this conversation. I'm trying to understand where he's coming from and what is motivating him.


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## [email protected] (Sep 24, 2014)

Unfortunately, I don't get to participate here much (hardly at all, which makes me sad), but I read just about everything. I've been in those shoes Mike is talking about, I think. 

When I got my Indian star and posted some pictures of her, one person jumped into the thread and said it was a very unhealthy tortoise with beak and leg problems in addition to pyramiding. That's all they said. I specifically asked for clarification on WHY they thought the tortoise looked unhealthy and what I should be doing to help her, and never got a reply back. 

THAT is not helpful. "Wow, that's a sick tortoise!" Not helpful without some real effort put into explaining why they think so and what can be done to rectify the situation. If you're not willing to help, then what good is it to declare an animal is looking poorly? It's really hard on a new member to the forum to get criticized about their care (or lack of care) without any constructive words of wisdom to help ease the sting.


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## Abdulla6169 (Sep 24, 2014)

I think its OK... Just not a "Look your tort is unhealthy, like eewww"! I think owners want to know that the tortoise may have slight pyramiding, and they can bump the humidity. Even though some new members may say: "look, pyramiding", I think its better to forgive, I don't think they mean harm.


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## wellington (Sep 24, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> Unfortunately, I don't get to participate here much (hardly at all, which makes me sad), but I read just about everything. I've been in those shoes Mike is talking about, I think.
> 
> When I got my Indian star and posted some pictures of her, one person jumped into the thread and said it was a very unhealthy tortoise with beak and leg problems in addition to pyramiding. That's all they said. I specifically asked for clarification on WHY they thought the tortoise looked unhealthy and what I should be doing to help her, and never got a reply back.
> 
> THAT is not helpful. "Wow, that's a sick tortoise!" Not helpful without some real effort put into explaining why they think so and what can be done to rectify the situation. If you're not willing to help, then what good is it to declare an animal is looking poorly? It's really hard on a new member to the forum to get criticized about their care (or lack of care) without any constructive words of wisdom to help ease the sting.


I totally agree. I don't think it is helpful at all. Same as I don't like the reposted ads. The op will say how awful the tort is being taken care of, but they do nothing to contact the owner and offer help. When you see an animal, any animal being taken care of poorly, one should always step in and offer advice/help. We are their only voice. If this was all that Mike had posted, I thnk we all would agree. It's really the second half of his post that I don't agree with.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 24, 2014)

The continual love affair with pyramiding is also irritating to me. We have become so stuck on the fact that tortoises should be growing smoothly that we just seem to harp on it all the time. I'm very proud of the fact that my SA leopard tortoises are growing smoothly and quite embarrassed that my male looks like a pine cone. 

There's absolutely no reason for me to be embarrassed of the way my male leopard tortoise looks, or the way some of my YF tortoises look because I raised them according to the rules of the day. I did the best I could with the info I had to go with. If I raised a bumpy baby today, THEN I should be ashamed. 

So I'm not immune to the pyramiding thing either. I used to say, "It's just cosmetic - don't worry about it."


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## N2TORTS (Sep 24, 2014)

Good thread ....and a lot of honest answers .....Now how about this one -
How would all this humidity "info" take into account on the Mojave Desert Tortoise?
In a single day in the Mojave, the climate (weather patterns for a particular region or habitat) is often very extreme, reaching hot temperatures of 50°C (120°F) and even hotter in the summer and often much cooler when the sun goes down (outside of the city - where there is no concrete or asphalt to hold the heat). In the winter, the temperature often stays below freezing at night but warms up to a comparatively comfortable temperature in the day. Because of these extremes, it is full of organisms with unique adaptations many people don't even realize exist!
Now for our tortoise friends this is can be an intriguing question regarding high humidity while young - to establish smooth carapace growth.
The Mojave averages less than 12cm (5 inches) of precipitation (rain and snow) a year with an average of 1.3 inches. The relative humidity levels range from about 55 percent at night and 32 percent at day during winter months, from December through February, to as low as 25 percent at night and 10 percent at day during summer months, in June and July
Taking into account when the tortoises are born in the wild (spring/early summer) it also happens to be the driest time of the year.


Life as we know it can not exist without water. So how does the desert tortoise do it? <~~~~some fun "sarcasm" with a smooth carapace.

I see The OP's point of view to the full extent and agree with some of his comments , on the other note- yes I have through the years learned that humidity does and will play an important role on captive bred tortoises concerning carapace growth.


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## Alaskamike (Sep 24, 2014)

Great interaction I think some may have missed my point about " stand alone" comments on pyramiding. 

I have seen exactly this comment. 
" I see pyramiding" 
On a thread - more than one. With no suggestions as to ways to minimize , help or understand it. No further words at all. It was these posts that got me going. 

Also, when someone makes the comment about pyramiding on a posted picture , gives advise and links to correct / minimize this , I also see 4 or 5 other people chime in about it. Is this really necessary ? 

It almost feels like a pile up - you know the guy is already tackled so let's get the rest of the team on top of him so he is really down for the count. 

I'm NOT saying getting good healthy husbandry info to tortoise keepers is wrong. Or even that we should coddle people Just use a bit of common sense and be sure your motivation is to be helpful.


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## Abdulla6169 (Sep 24, 2014)

Alaskamike said:


> Great interaction I think some may have missed my point about " stand alone" comments on pyramiding.
> 
> I have seen exactly this comment.
> " I see pyramiding"
> ...


I agree with the above. I just think newbies do it unknowingly, think they're trying to help... We've all been newbies in the forum once.


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## wellington (Sep 24, 2014)

Alaskamike said:


> Great interaction I think some may have missed my point about " stand alone" comments on pyramiding.
> 
> I have seen exactly this comment.
> " I see pyramiding"
> ...



I totally agree with you on the one liners. The second half of your original thread I don't. 
As far as the pile up, for me, if I have a thread going for advice and I get 4-5 responses from members that I don't really know anything about or more importantly are newbies, I will not be paying much attention to the responses, but will be waiting for someone that I know has had a lot more experience or someone that has been a forum member for more then a few months.


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## Jodie (Sep 24, 2014)

I like the pile up. If one person tells me something it is easy to disregard, but if multiple people are saying the same thing, i have confidence it is correct. It is hard to be a newbie here. I admit i felt attacked when i first joined once. It was /is very important to me that i get the best info, so i stayed. Written conversations are always hard because you have no other communication cues to interpret meaning. I think we can be careful in our wording. It doesn't help the torts, if we offend someone and they leave any more than sugar coating things. Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth.


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## Neal (Sep 24, 2014)

Team Gomberg said:


> I can agree with you about the initial pyramiding comments and the way it comes across.
> 
> I've made it a personal point of mine not to comment on pyramiding or dry/humid husbandry unless they ask. I don't know what they already know and I do feel it is rude to assume they don't know anything.
> 
> ...



I like your approach Heather, by finding out the details first. Not because it's the nicer way to go about it but because in most cases one cannot tell how a tortoise is raised by the appearance of its shell alone. Bear in mind that I am not talking about an extreme case of pyramiding, but the type we more often see where it is more subtle. There is a big difference between the two and I certainly would support a more aggressive approach in those extreme cases, but my interpretation of the OP's frustration comes from those instances where the pyramiding does not appear to be so severe.

I think a discussion based approach when we see someone post with an apparently pyramiding tortoise is more effective because pyramiding in and of itself does not indicate how a tortoise was raised and does not provide any indication of the tortoises health (unless it's severe), in my opinion. Some tortoises will pyramid in high humid environments and some tortoises will grow smooth in dry environments. And as mentioned already, pyramiding has been observed in wild tortoises, so I'm always a little concerned when people suggest that a tortoise SHOULD BE completely smooth...but perhaps my picture of a completely smooth tortoise is different from the person who said it.

To explain myself further, I have seen many cases where a young tortoise appears to be pyramiding but as it grows larger the shell appears to be completely smooth. If "good" husbandry is in place, I don't think comments such as "your tortoise is starting to pyramid" or the like are appropriate or serve any purpose. And how could someone know that someone else is practicing good husbandry unless the details are provided? So for these reasons, unless something is obviously not good, I think a more paced, discussion based approach is more effective and more beneficial for the community since these discussions are posted for the public to see as apposed to the single lined, helpless comments.

I understand, different strokes for different folks, exceptions have to be made and like Tom suggested, pyramiding is different for everyone and what some consider "normal" or "severe" might not be for others, so I hope I'm not splitting hairs here or getting off topic. I'm just offering my thoughts on the matter here.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 24, 2014)

Regarding what JD referred to, I'm asking @ascott to tell us what it's like in the desert right now. Are you having the monsoon season like the babies in Africa are hatching into? September is the month that desert tortoise and Texas tortoise eggs hatch, so you folks living in the California/Arizona/Texas deserts, is it raining for your hatchlings?


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## Yvonne G (Sep 24, 2014)

I agree. I hate that an experienced tort keeper/member gives a good and correct/helpful answer, then all these other people have to jump in with more or less the same info. I feel if the question has been answered then no other response is required. EW-w-w-w-w Your tortoise is pyramided. UGH!!


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## Magilla504 (Sep 24, 2014)

I love to read everyone's thoughts on this. The thing to remember is that people will better learn through positive interactions. Making passive aggressive or rude comments does not benefit anyone and especially not the tort! If made uncomfortable, the individual may become turned off to advice. It may only take one negative person to ruin the reputation of all the great people on this forum.


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## N2TORTS (Sep 24, 2014)

Yvonne G said:


> Regarding what JD referred to, I'm asking @ascott to tell us what it's like in the desert right now. Are you having the monsoon season like the babies in Africa are hatching into? September is the month that desert tortoise and Texas tortoise eggs hatch, so you folks living in the California/Arizona/Texas deserts, is it raining for your hatchlings?


 
Not to get off the Pyramid thread ......but still inline with wild smooth specimens

The desert tortoise is able to live where ground temperatures may exceed 140 degrees F because of its ability to dig underground burrows three to six feet deep to escape the heat of summer and the cold of winter. It is one of the most elusive inhabitants of the desert, spending up to 98% of its time underground. Desert tortoises spend November through February in a torpid or dormant state in their underground burrows.
Their most active time is in the spring when they will forage for food. During the hottest, driest periods of the year, these tortoises conserve the water already stored in their bodies. This is especially important in the hot, dry Mojave Desert summers.
Much of the tortoise’s water intake comes from moisture in the grasses and wildflowers they consume in the spring. To get the most out of the rain that falls so infrequently in their habitat, desert tortoises dig basins in the soil to catch rainwater. The tortoises always remember where these basins are, and may be found waiting by them when rain appears imminent. But this still makes one wonder where the humidity would be around at a constant while young for smooth carapace growth.
*Reproduction*
Females do not breed until they are 15 to 20 years old. When hatchlings emerge from eggs they are approximately 2 inches long. Only about 2 percent of hatchlings survive to become adults.
*Mating Season*: Late summer to early fall
*Gestation*: 8-10 months
*Clutch size*: 4-6 eggs
and some fun fact.....Adult desert tortoises can survive a year or more without access to water!
http://blogs.sandiegozoo.org/2009/04/29/desert-tortoise-team/

I have had this guy since 1973


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## Abdulla6169 (Sep 24, 2014)

N2TORTS said:


> Not to get off the Pyramid thread ......but still inline with wild smooth specimens
> 
> The desert tortoise is able to live where ground temperatures may exceed 140 degrees F because of its ability to dig underground burrows three to six feet deep to escape the heat of summer and the cold of winter. It is one of the most elusive inhabitants of the desert, spending up to 98% of its time underground. Desert tortoises spend November through February in a torpid or dormant state in their underground burrows.
> Their most active time is in the spring when they will forage for food. During the hottest, driest periods of the year, these tortoises conserve the water already stored in their bodies. This is especially important in the hot, dry Mojave Desert summers.
> ...


*Gasp* Thats some resilient animal!


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## aztortoisegal (Sep 24, 2014)

I'm a relatively new tortoise mom, and cannot believe all the things I assumed to be proper care from diet, housing, humidity, etc. I don't consider myself an idiot, but I don't think it's too unreasonable to assume a creature originally from hot dry climates would appreciate the same environment from their human handlers. Or that water wasn't a necessity. Or that a pen ten times as large as the tort was plenty of room for him.

I'm so glad I found this forum and am learning the TRUTH about what to do to make him healthy and thrive, and welcome ANY suggestions or comments that may be contrary to what I'm exhibiting as "the right way". I know there are plenty of personalities out there that can't appear to be anything but right, an expert, etc., and that's ok. That's how it is on any forum. I happen to be a certified expert professional master of my craft for what I do for a living, and see those with much less experience try to be authoritative on forums I'm a member of. Sometimes it's funny, sometimes it's just obnoxious, but one thing that rings true......if you aren't courteous and helpful whenever possible, within reason, you just drive people off that genuinely want help and can be taught, with the right attitude and mannerisms.


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## aztortoisegal (Sep 24, 2014)

Like, where in the wild does a tortoise have access to a shallow dish of water? Right?? Now I know they dig depressions to catch water, and they conserve what they do manage to get. Shallow dish of water always in my pen, and a good spray down couple times a day, with a constantly damp burrow.


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## aztortoisegal (Sep 24, 2014)

Ok, one more and I'm done. I feel so bad for a friends' pair of tortoises now that I know what I should be doing. They're big, about two feet long, share a burrow, one gets bullied, they never get water EVER, and you can walk the length of their enclosure in about ten steps.  Do they look unhealthy or uncared for? I don't think so, but I'm no expert...yet. Thank you all who contribute so generously and are helping people like me raise a happy tortoise.


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## wellington (Sep 24, 2014)

aztortoisegal said:


> Ok, one more and I'm done. I feel so bad for a friends' pair of tortoises now that I know what I should be doing. They're big, about two feet long, share a burrow, one gets bullied, they never get water EVER, and you can walk the length of their enclosure in about ten steps.  Do they look unhealthy or uncared for? I don't think so, but I'm no expert...yet. Thank you all who contribute so generously and are helping people like me raise a happy tortoise.


Boy, just wonder how their care takers would like it if they lived like that. I'm sure they wouldn't. They also probably think they are doing right by them, because that's what they were taught and no one has cared enough about the torts to tell them different. Some people want to be liked more then doing what's right for an animal, so they say nothing.
Everything can be said in a nice, uninsulting way, and some people will still get bent, becuase they think they know it all. 
However, at least if it's said, they have heard it and possibly will start to search it out.


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## Turtlepete (Sep 24, 2014)

The problem I've seen with this forum, long before I joined it, is sometimes just how aggressive people will be when trying to "educate" someone. When the first thing a new member hears is that they are doing everything wrong, you should be ashamed of yourself, and "your tortoise is pyramided", often, they don't come back. Or how about when someone innocently shares in a picture that they keep two species together. They are instantly shamed for practicing something "unsafe". Often, the result of the aggression with which they are "educated", that person is not going to feel obligated to come back to this forum, or "learn" from it. Maybe they weren't seeking advice originally (though they may need it), and just wanted to share. When they are shamed to feel they are doing everything wrong, often attacked, do you think that makes them want to learn from you? Absolutely not. Yet often, that is the approach this forum takes.

The infatuation with pyramiding is disappointing. It certainly seems that people try to set the standard of a healthy tort at "has a smooth shell", and thats it. I would guess this is because pyramiding is the easiest visual cue to pick up on that tells you anything at all about how a tortoise is raised, and thus the only judgement of health taken from a picture that the majority of people are qualified to assess. A few bumps on the scutes are often inconsequential to the overall health of a tortoise, but it seems to be the biggest thing people will consider when "evaluating" a tortoise's health.


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## Yourlocalpoet (Sep 24, 2014)

There is a distinct 'pyramiding police' presence on this forum, but it's only done out of concern for the tortoise's welfare.

The one liners are not helpful, I agree, but I think they are only done by a minority. This is because when you've been on the forum long enough, you get to know details and backgrounds of certain members' lives, and their tortoises and therefore know whether it's appropriate to comment on certain things or not. You also learn there is more to tortoise husbandry than just humidity.

I also call this, not being a moron.

You also realise, as a newbie, quite quickly who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't. Therefore you know who's comments to take and who's to dismiss, ie, the unhelpful ones. 

I think people just need to read more, think and then post. But, at the same time, I do think people get offended far too easily. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tortoise Forum


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 24, 2014)

Alaskamike said:


> I decided to put this in debatable topics because I suppose there are many opinions on this.
> This is about a pet peeve of mine that is growing as I become more involved in reading posts and sharing with members – both new and experienced. More than once, I’ve seen comments on pictures – especially a new person’s post that say …
> 
> “I see pyramiding”
> ...


 

Alaskamike I hope you find this a humerouse response;

Many people say "I see pyramiding" because so many people are in deNILE about it. Get it - the Nile river goes by the pyramids. And there are many people in denile about pyramiding.

If as a stand alone matter, it's not the worst possible result of less than optimal care. But I'd rather look at a wild type than a 'rabbit pellet' type.


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## littleginsu (Sep 24, 2014)

aztortoisegal said:


> Like, where in the wild does a tortoise have access to a shallow dish of water? Right?? Now I know they dig depressions to catch water, and they conserve what they do manage to get. Shallow dish of water always in my pen, and a good spray down couple times a day, with a constantly damp burrow.



Not to get too off topic, I would guess maybe a tortoise would not complete submerge in a water hole, but perhaps just chill out on the banks... Plus since it has grade instead of a lip, there is probably less chance of flipping while trying to get out. But, I am guessing, so... I could be completely wrong. Lol


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## Tom (Sep 24, 2014)

N2TORTS said:


> Good thread ....and a lot of honest answers .....Now how about this one -
> How would all this humidity "info" take into account on the Mojave Desert Tortoise?
> In a single day in the Mojave, the climate (weather patterns for a particular region or habitat) is often very extreme, reaching hot temperatures of 50°C (120°F) and even hotter in the summer and often much cooler when the sun goes down (outside of the city - where there is no concrete or asphalt to hold the heat). In the winter, the temperature often stays below freezing at night but warms up to a comparatively comfortable temperature in the day. Because of these extremes, it is full of organisms with unique adaptations many people don't even realize exist!
> Now for our tortoise friends this is can be an intriguing question regarding high humidity while young - to establish smooth carapace growth.
> ...



How are above ground temps, humidity and conditions relevant for a fossorial sub-terranian dweller? Tell me what conditions the earthworms in Mojave are dealing with, and then we will be getting somewhere.


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## Tom (Sep 24, 2014)

Alaskamike said:


> Great interaction I think some may have missed my point about " stand alone" comments on pyramiding.
> 
> I have seen exactly this comment.
> " I see pyramiding"
> ...



Mike, Its hard to comment on this without knowing who said that. Are you aware that we have quite a few children who post regularly here? They are good kids for the most part, but sometimes their comments might come across the wrong way to someone who doesn't understand the situation...

Might this account for some of what you are seeing in relation to this subject?


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## Tom (Sep 24, 2014)

aztortoisegal said:


> Like, where in the wild does a tortoise have access to a shallow dish of water? Right?? Now I know they dig depressions to catch water, and they conserve what they do manage to get. Shallow dish of water always in my pen, and a good spray down couple times a day, with a constantly damp burrow.



My friend Rodney recently did a post of pics of sulcatas in the wild. The first pic was a big sulcata sitting in a big puddle of water. In "The Crying Tortoise" there is another similar pic.

The answer to your question is: "Everywhere."


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## CharlieM (Sep 24, 2014)

One Facebook group I'm on starts with:


Keep it friendly at all times. We know you mean well.
1 - Do not give advice unless advice is asked for, save the lectures..
2 - No judging. Nobody owes anybody an explanation. So in other words.. no sticking your nose into other peoples affairs.
3 - Respect each others opinions even if you don't agree with them. you can suggest without being rude.

I don't post very much because a few prominent members can be so judgemental and at times aggressive. Some have a really hard time staying on the topic. 
It's not always what you say but how you say it.


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## N2TORTS (Sep 24, 2014)

Tom said:


> How are above ground temps, humidity and conditions relevant for a fossorial sub-terranian dweller? Tell me what conditions the earthworms in Mojave are dealing with, and then we will be getting somewhere.





Tom said:


> How are above ground temps, humidity and conditions relevant for a fossorial sub-terranian dweller? Tell me what conditions the earthworms in Mojave are dealing with, and then we will be getting somewhere.


 
Well Tom not sure what you mean but yes there are Desert Earthworms …..although I don’t think they pyramid. I had no intentions to get into this debate, I was merely using a Native species I’m close to and familiar with . I don’t breed them never have ….but have been around them since the 60’s numerous of times while mapping most parts of the Mojave with my father. So in contrast just using a role model and how it adapts in the wild with a smooth carapace in a very dry climate with mere humidity…and perhaps lighting the mood from the original OP , who I think made some valid points . There are many experienced keepers in here, and I would hope and most do Like yourself well respected and mannered.
Now for earth worms ……“Worms,” said Charles Darwin in _The Formation of Vegetable Mould,_ the last of his books, “have played a more important part in the history of the world than most persons would at first suppose.” The earthworms’ ancestors have been stirring the soil of the earth for perhaps 120 million years. In the desert, the earthworms live, not in the organically poor desert sands, but primarily in the richer riverine floodplains where, daily, each worm can ingest its weight in decaying organic materials and minerals, converting them into nutrients, enriching the soil. Numbering as many as hundreds of thousands per acre, earthworms not only contribute in a major way to increasing the fertility of the soil, they also serve as an important food source for a diverse array of other animals, including the vertebrates. …Desert invertebrates are stunningly complex in their diversity, include, for a few examples, the arthropods (insects, spiders, scorpions, centipedes, millipedes, desert shrimp and many others), the mollusks (snails) and annelids (segmented earthworms). Desert snails survive the heat and drought by taking refuge in stony crevices or burrowing into mud, relying on their shells to preserve their moisture until the next rains bring more water. “They will withdraw into their shells, and hibernate or sleep, for as much as 2-3 years, until conditions improve,” says AmusingFacts. Snails feed on plants, fungi and plant detritus, and they serve as prey for several animals.
And even more bizarre……
Desert shrimp, which live in ephemeral playas and water holes, rank as true crustaceans, like the shrimp, crabs and lobsters of the oceans. The desert shrimps’ eggs, provided they dry completely, hatch in vast numbers when rain brings water to their playas and water holes. Adults, depending on the species, range from a half inch to two inches in length. Omnivores, desert shrimp eat fungi, algae and microscopic organisms. Remarkably adapted to the desert, they produce eggs that may lie desiccated for years awaiting the hatching cues prompted by rainfall. Some species breathe through their feet, where gills are located. Their great numbers following a hatch attract large populations of waterbirds during migratory seasons. The shrimp die as their water evaporates.


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## Tom (Sep 24, 2014)

CharlieM said:


> One Facebook group I'm on starts with:
> 
> 
> Keep it friendly at all times. We know you mean well.
> ...



I think this is sound advice on a forum where people's feelings are at stake.

When an animal's health or life is at stake, sometimes things need to be said in a way that might not always line up with those three guidelines.

This is another case of the "Golden Rule" causing problems. Some people want to be coddled and easily take offense at frank, straight forward advice. _*I*_ want frank, straight forward advice from people who know what they are talking about on a subject that I post about. I don't need or want coddling, and I find "sugar-coating" irritating and a hindrance to getting good info from people. A certain percentage of people are going to be irritated or offended when we treat them how _*we*_ want to be treated. Not everybody likes the same thing. When I come across one of these sensitive types, I just back off and leave them alone. My in box is full of plenty of "thank you" notes from people who did/do appreciate my style of "help". This is the reason why this forum is so fantastic. There are a wide variety of personalities to suit what just about anyone could want. If I am too abrasive or harsh, they could instead take advice from the ever-eloquent Yvonne, who is also pretty straight forward, but much more tactful than me. Or Heather, who has a talent for noticing and catering to people's idiosyncrasies. Or Cowboy Ken who addresses most topics with a healthy dose of humor. Or Will who has a no-nonsense factual approach. Or Neal who examines everything with a critical eye. The list of great people here never ends and as a group, I think we cover all angles and do an awesome job.


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 24, 2014)

N2TORTS said:


> Good thread ....and a lot of honest answers .....Now how about this one -
> How would all this humidity "info" take into account on the Mojave Desert Tortoise?
> In a single day in the Mojave, the climate (weather patterns for a particular region or habitat) is often very extreme, reaching hot temperatures of 50°C (120°F) and even hotter in the summer and often much cooler when the sun goes down (outside of the city - where there is no concrete or asphalt to hold the heat). In the winter, the temperature often stays below freezing at night but warms up to a comparatively comfortable temperature in the day. Because of these extremes, it is full of organisms with unique adaptations many people don't even realize exist!
> Now for our tortoise friends this is can be an intriguing question regarding high humidity while young - to establish smooth carapace growth.
> ...



Desert tortoises don't pyramid the way Sulcata do. Chaco's pyramid badly too. 
In the wild our Gopherus agassizii digs a long burrow to get himself out of the desert heat. While down underground they poop and pee in their den and, Lo and Behold...humidity I have kept numerous Sulcata and more desert tortoises and I can tell you from personal experience desert torts don't pyramid very easily at all. 
Bob was 5 when I got him, already slightly pyramided; and even with all the knowledge I have about pyramiding his carapace got worse after I started to care for him. I know I did everything right, but it almost looks like a few scutes have deep grooves underneath. He has that 'captive' dip on his back and his carapace has 'flares' over his head and legs. He's not a good example at all, and I tried so hard. So I do get defensive about it. I know how he's supposed to look.
So I guess I am one of 'those' people who will tell a newbie his tort is pyramiding and why. I also tell them how to stop it....I think pyramiding tells a lot about the unseen condition of the animal, and what's scary to me is, the amount of people who think pyramiding is normal. I think we need to work very hard to educate the new keeper and WIPE OUT PYRAMIDING..


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## ascott (Sep 24, 2014)

Yvonne G said:


> Regarding what JD referred to, I'm asking @ascott to tell us what it's like in the desert right now. Are you having the monsoon season like the babies in Africa are hatching into? September is the month that desert tortoise and Texas tortoise eggs hatch, so you folks living in the California/Arizona/Texas deserts, is it raining for your hatchlings?



Yvonne....we have not seen rain here for 3 years (and a few minutes of showers does not count as rain)...I am continually running every and all hoses /sprinklers and flood irrigating systems I have here....and you can still ....still... still see how stressed the non native shade trees as well as the natural native scrub and vegetation are .....the last two years were not as "apparent" as this year. 

I visit/go out into the Mojave about once every other weekend....I am always amazed at the pure perfection on display with regards to the desert landscape and its occupants....the rules that apply here---are unmatched anywhere else, PERIOD. 

For example, the Mojave received rapid heavy rain fall about two different days this summer....the blankets created flash flood zones...flowed away quickly, unable to absorb all of that precious water in our dense loam....however....it has been a solid month and a half since the first of the two rain events have taken place....there are micro climates so so so easy to spot, these areas are the areas richest with sightings of our gorgeous CDTs...they are areas that for some fantastic reason can take a drop of water and make an entire bush bloom as though it had been watered steady for an entire season....there are plump energetic bright eyed tortoise trucking about early and late in the day....they are a perfect match for this perfect wild land....there is not high humidity (not even down in the burrows--some but not high humidity), there are not _reliable_ periods of rain...and yet, these perfectly designed tortoise grow smooth as glass....there are factors here that I "speculate" contribute, but as with all others familiar with the area, they are only speculations---and yet not proven beyond a doubt. Therefore, with this species, my opinion is to offer the tortoise in my care the closest mimic of what we see ---monkey see monkey do---and that appears to be received well. 

JD--the information points for CDTs that you outlined are valuable points and should not be dismissed....the environment in which this species lives, dies and then some how thrives in requires such an exact balance that when we think we should change things/pieces to what we believe would be better---this is the worst violation we can make....we simply DO NOT KNOW BETTER. 

In my opinion, hydration is essential---and there are ways that it is offered and cherished by the creatures that rely on this exact balance...and this is why, also in my opinion, it is so important to not try to "fix" things in such a way that makes "us" feel warm and fuzzy...high humidity, constant wet environments---with this species and other arid species (yes, I said arid--and I mean arid environments designed to be just that) can create a bad and ill designed environment for a creature not designed that way....I have NEVER seen a CDT in the wild that is anything but glass smooth...but this is a result of them living in the environment they were designed to reside in....again, my opinion-- based on my observation along with the reports/findings/discussions of people that place themselves right in that environment for long periods of time...with one purpose, to sometimes sit for days and do nothing but observe and log--without offering opinion, quietly and gently move about without disturbing the environment--respecting it, taking care to not smash plants not disturb rock formations--but to truly observe and "visit" the desert with the goal to gather intel....then to share what they find....they will then replicate by sight what they have seen, in pure form with hopes that doing so will offer the tort the ability to continue function---this is the best usable information, it is the information that you can take with you to the same areas and can observe the same behavior over and over and over again....and even after doing this for years (some making it a lifelong passion) they don't pollute pure behavior by simple human labeling .....I could go on (some folks find it to be rambling) and on with this species but will stop here...thank you for inviting this species into this conversation...and allowing me an excuse to oogle them...

To offer my opinion on the initial post/purpose. I believe that folks are sometimes quick to cast the first stone, even if they know not where the pile came from....so don't always know the story in front of them....I have been accused at times of being short or to the point....I am getting older and have to admit that I sometimes have to remember my manners in the presentation of information I would like to share....but rarely is my tongue sharpened on purpose (I say rarely, because alas I too am not perfect and can become a bit snide from time to time especially when met by an ahole....)...

I personally do not expect a perfect shell on any captive tortoise, (they simply can not do perfection in such an artificial captive environment often times unnatural in comparison to their actual wild land)---to me that is not an indicator of a healthy tortoise...I also do not think that high levels of humidity in a confined space is a cure all for a shell to be forever smooth and also equate to a healthy tortoise...somewhat like when our nails are continually wet--they are much more pliable...but they can not remain wet _and_ healthy forever...there will be the moment of the dry out--and this is the part we don't know enough about....to me long term study would require years and years of accurate logs...and in my opinion,_ years_ in the topic of tortoise would be 20-30-40 years of tried and exacts to never waiver, this would then offer a better view of results....I mean, I know that CDTs have a few hundred years rolleyes, ok, perhaps a couple more than that (sarcasm here) of proof that they are perfectly designed for the environment perfectly designed for them to live in....who am I to try to think I know better....

I also find that the term "newbie" has developed a different connotation that it should....just because someone is new to this Forum does not mean they are new to this planet....and too often I see dismissive statements made to disregard any words a new member or new host has to offer...this also can be added to the list of irritating behaviors I cringe at....I read each and every persons input--from the newest member on through....just because something is new does not discount its value.....just as some old ways are not always the wrong ways....


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 25, 2014)

This picture almost shows what I'm talking about, the grooves _under_ a scute.

I also think that on an over all basis TFO is much less aggressive than most forums. I think that the written word can be misunderstood as aggression when it's someone like me just being direct and slightly grumpy.


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## ascott (Sep 25, 2014)

> I have had this guy since 1973



Beautiful....I love the variations in the shell color....


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## ascott (Sep 25, 2014)

> While down underground they poop and _pee_ in their den and, Lo and Behold...humidity



Maggie,

I am going to simply voice a long nagging question in regards to this statement that I have seen from time to time....and please do not read into it in any way other than an inquiring mind (not expecting you to know the answer, but just one of those hmmm? questions--okay).

With this species (CDT) specifically, they have very little access and opportunity to regular sources of water, right? They are known to retain water in their bodies/system for as long as 2-4 years (the same fluid/liquid product that was once water) when there is drought.....there is much caution taken to not startle a CDT due to them reactively voiding their bodies of all fluid and in turn no longer having that needed fluid to live, right? So, to think that a CDT would spend time repeatedly peeing in their burrow always makes me scratch my head...why in the world would a tortoise void this essential liquid from their body over and over again without a reliable source to re up the water? Just does not make sense...to me.

I have to also say that when ever I have seen the CDTs here (just as an example point) pee, it is always near where they take in new water/fluid....every time....when they are taking in the water or consuming a wet food, about half way through--they begin to pee as they fill up with the new.....


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## [email protected] (Sep 25, 2014)

One more thought that comes to mind, specifically about the focus on pyramiding as a problem. Pyramiding is one of the few obvious clues that something may be wrong with a tortoise. In an online forum, all we can go by is visual clues, and those visual clues are limited to the quality of the pictures provided, which often offer only a limited view of the animal. So all anyone can really see is the carapace and whatever growth issues it may be having. SO, of course, that is going to be a primary focus of conversation from anyone concerned about the animal's well being.


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## lisa127 (Sep 25, 2014)

Tom said:


> I think this is sound advice on a forum where people's feelings are at stake.
> 
> When an animal's health or life is at stake, sometimes things need to be said in a way that might not always line up with those three guidelines.
> 
> This is another case of the "Golden Rule" causing problems. Some people want to be coddled and easily take offense at frank, straight forward advice. _*I*_ want frank, straight forward advice from people who know what they are talking about on a subject that I post about. I don't need or want coddling, and I find "sugar-coating" irritating and a hindrance to getting good info from people. A certain percentage of people are going to be irritated or offended when we treat them how _*we*_ want to be treated. Not everybody likes the same thing. When I come across one of these sensitive types, I just back off and leave them alone. My in box is full of plenty of "thank you" notes from people who did/do appreciate my style of "help". This is the reason why this forum is so fantastic. There are a wide variety of personalities to suit what just about anyone could want. If I am too abrasive or harsh, they could instead take advice from the ever-eloquent Yvonne, who is also pretty straight forward, but much more tactful than me. Or Heather, who has a talent for noticing and catering to people's idiosyncrasies. Or Cowboy Ken who addresses most topics with a healthy dose of humor. Or Will who has a no-nonsense factual approach. Or Neal who examines everything with a critical eye. The list of great people here never ends and as a group, I think we cover all angles and do an awesome job.


Being an animal lover, I tend to agree with you. However, to us the health or life of an animal is important enough to break these "guidelines". To others, there may be other topics more important and more worthy of breaking those guidelines. Not trying to be difficult, just realizing that everyone feels that what they feel is important is well....important.


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## tortadise (Sep 25, 2014)

The best way for me to describe to someone about the ultimate complete care of a tortoise,turtle, or even a frog. Is to establish a micro habitat in which ever inside room, outside enclosure etc.. I did a thread on this a whole back. Pyramiding is not the only issue that can lead to an unhealthy animal.


http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/significant-of-microclimates-in-captivity.85293/


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## Alaskamike (Sep 25, 2014)

There are so many great quality comments here. It is truly amazing the experience and wisdom demonstrated. This conversation I believe has been fruitful. Certainly people are giving these issues more thought. 

It is apparent to me there is still much to learn about our wonderful creatures. I look forward to growing along the way ..... As my tort buddies grow. 

Thanks for the efforts at clarity every poster shows. 
Mike


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## aztortoisegal (Sep 25, 2014)

I want to ask something that I hope isn't off topic, but, in the case of a rescue situation, where a tortoise was terribly cared for, neglected, malnourished, etc., how long do the visible signs of that take to heal? Like if you rescued one that had terrible pyramiding, how long would it take for that to go away? Or does it remain with the tortoise for life, and a relatively healthy tortoise will always bear the marks of previously bad care?


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## Alaskamike (Sep 25, 2014)

I'm not the most experienced to answer this. I only had one Sulcata I rescued that had a pyramided shell. I kept him less than a year and reformed him. But .... There are so many variables it would depend. Age , severity, and steps taken to correct all play a factor. 
I rescued a young sully last month. He / she is 2.3 lbs. said to be 2 yrs old ( but I doubt it) and shows pyramiding. I'm going to document care and changes to see what happens. That thread is in the Sulcata section. 
For sure, some improvement will be shown. 
Good fortune


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## Yourlocalpoet (Sep 25, 2014)

aztortoisegal said:


> I want to ask something that I hope isn't off topic, but, in the case of a rescue situation, where a tortoise was terribly cared for, neglected, malnourished, etc., how long do the visible signs of that take to heal? Like if you rescued one that had terrible pyramiding, how long would it take for that to go away? Or does it remain with the tortoise for life, and a relatively healthy tortoise will always bear the marks of previously bad care?



Pyramiding cannot 'go away'. It's not reversible. New growth can be smooth and this can change how the shell looks, but it depends on the severity of the Pyramiding.
Generally, what has already been done is done.

Apparently my iPhone believes that Pyramiding is a proper noun. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tortoise Forum


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 25, 2014)

N2TORTS said:


> Not to get off the Pyramid thread ......but still inline with wild smooth specimens
> 
> The desert tortoise is able to live where ground temperatures may exceed 140 degrees F because of its ability to dig underground burrows three to six feet deep to escape the heat of summer and the cold of winter. It is one of the most elusive inhabitants of the desert, spending up to 98% of its time underground. Desert tortoises spend November through February in a torpid or dormant state in their underground burrows.
> Their most active time is in the spring when they will forage for food. During the hottest, driest periods of the year, these tortoises conserve the water already stored in their bodies. This is especially important in the hot, dry Mojave Desert summers.
> ...


Wow, In my experience they lose that color and become grayish brown. He's beautiful...


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 25, 2014)

ascott said:


> Maggie,
> 
> I am going to simply voice a long nagging question in regards to this statement that I have seen from time to time....and please do not read into it in any way other than an inquiring mind (not expecting you to know the answer, but just one of those hmmm? questions--okay).
> 
> ...



You are completely and totally correct. I think I was just mouthing old out dated information...or I got Sulcata and CDT confused in my thinking...


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## littleginsu (Sep 25, 2014)

In the end, I feel everyone here means no harm and unless you are a gifted novelist, it is sometimes very hard to not come across accusatory or brash. I have been know to take things personally but when I have someone else read it they see nothing offensive... So it is a delicate dance between writer and reader, urgency and assholery.

I know I will subconsciously take this constructive criticism to heart and chose my words wisely... If all else fails, use lots of smiley/fun emoticons. Seriously, I own a website that has a forum and, I kid you not, people take bad news or stern words so much better when you use smileys.


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## Benjamin (Sep 25, 2014)

No mention of overfeeding? Too much of a good thing can cause problems. 
How about the scenario that animals kept outdoors will have their shells worn by the elements.
I personally don't care for animals that have shells that appear to be made of plastic...


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## jeffjeff (Sep 26, 2014)

I'm still fairly new here but i found every one to be most helpful and welcoming. Personally i prefer people to be straight. If i'm doing some thing wrong tell me. I wont take offence unless its just a plain nasty comment meant to criticize. There's no need to be nasty or aggressive with people it achieves nothing except to alienate people and possible stop them from sticking around long enough to learn from other people with far more experience. That said I can understand people being defensive if they feel like their being attacked. I belive people who genuinely want to learn will ask questions and take advise the way it is meant but unfortunately there are those who think they know it all who take any advise or tips as criticism and take offence no matter how its worded. Also there plenty people out there who's only intention it to cause trouble and upset people.


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## Benjamin (Sep 26, 2014)

Tom, why don't you respond to my post directly.?


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## Tom (Sep 26, 2014)

jeffjeff said:


> I'm still fairly new here but i found every one to be most helpful and welcoming. Personally i prefer people to be straight. If i'm doing some thing wrong tell me. I wont take offence unless its just a plain nasty comment meant to criticize. There's no need to be nasty or aggressive with people it achieves nothing except to alienate people and possible stop them from sticking around long enough to learn from other people with far more experience. That said I can understand people being defensive if they feel like their being attacked. I belive people who genuinely want to learn will ask questions and take advise the way it is meant but unfortunately there are those who think they know it all who take any advise or tips as criticism and take offence no matter how its worded. Also there plenty people out there who's only intention it to cause trouble and upset people.



May I ask a question that pertains to this discussion? If when you first joined, you mentioned that your enclosure was just wide enough for your tortoise to turn around, or that your tortoise "was still able to turn around" in its enclosure, and I offered some threads to help out while mentioning that I thought your enclosure was too small, or "WAYYYY to small", would that offend you? Would you find that nasty or critical in a bad way?

I ask because someone else recently did find it offensive. They thought I was "scolding" them and that my "manners sucked". How do you see it?


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## Tom (Sep 26, 2014)

Benjamin said:


> Tom, why don't you respond to my post directly.?



I don't see anything I feel the need to respond to. If you and Turtlepete would like to have a conversation perhaps we could start a new thread?


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## phebe121 (Sep 26, 2014)

I really think it needs to be pointed out maybe in a nicer way saying hay how often do u soke your tort see if tgere doing everything right before your like theres pyramiding but on that note i would have never known if someone didnt say anything to me i got them that way i didnt get to see them before i got them so i got to correct it before it was out of control and there shell is smothing out and they seam to be happy and i care for them properly now and all thanks to the advice of all these wouderful people on here


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## jeffjeff (Sep 26, 2014)

Tom said:


> May I ask a question that pertains to this discussion? If when you first joined, you mentioned that your enclosure was just wide enough for your tortoise to turn around, or that your tortoise "was still able to turn around" in its enclosure, and I offered some threads to help out while mentioning that I thought your enclosure was too small, or "WAYYYY to small", would that offend you? Would you find that nasty or critical in a bad way?
> 
> I ask because someone else recently did find it offensive. They thought I was "scolding" them and that my "manners sucked". How do you see it?



no i wouldn't be offended nor do i see it as scolding or offensive in any way. i would take it as advise and would believe that you where trying get across just how much too small the enclosure really was and thank you for taking the time to offer help and share advise. i also think any one using the words "just able" or "still able" would be well aware that the enclosure was way too small and had been for some time.


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## Benjamin (Sep 26, 2014)

Tom said:


> I don't see anything I feel the need to respond to. If you and Turtlepete would like to have a conversation perhaps we could start a new thread?


My interpretation of this response is that you may be in De Nile that any other factors could contribute to prymiding other than lack of humidity...


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## Star-of-India (Sep 26, 2014)

Benjamin said:


> My interpretation of this response is that you may be in De Nile that any other factors could contribute to prymiding other than lack of humidity...



Whenever this topic comes up it appears to me that many posters are conflating pyramiding with the seemingly similar, but very different shell deformities seen in MBD. This conflation may be unintended, but I believe it's occurring nonetheless. 

MBD is all about diet and UV exposure, or lack thereof. The bony deformities seen in MBD are reminiscent of pyramiding, but are an entirely different and unrelated phenomenon. MBD is of course not 'too much of a good thing,' but actually too much of a bad thing. 

I'm convinced that you can't feed tortoises too much as long as it is a well balanced diet, the torts are well hydrated and have sufficient space to roam. I have had some tort raising experience over the last 50 years, but only on accessing this forum this year have I seen such great and logical information. 

As to veterinarians giving bad advice, well I'm not a vet, but I am an MD. My specialty is emergency medicine. When you come to me, my knowledge regarding your emergency condition surpasses that of your regular MD. Your regular MD's expertise is hopefully stronger than mine regarding any chronic problems you have. 

The same goes for vets, the average vet specializes in 'small animals,' but that is essentially dogs, cats and other small mammals. The others specialize largely in 'large animals,' meaning horses, cattle and pigs. I don't see reptiles, much less tortoises, in either background. That doesn't mean that there aren't capable vets who haven't specialized in reptiles, but they are much more likely to parrot back outdated info picked up along the way without factual basis. We MD's do it all the time! Oops, I wasn't supposed to admit that! ;-)


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## Yourlocalpoet (Sep 26, 2014)

Benjamin said:


> No mention of overfeeding? Too much of a good thing can cause problems.
> How about the scenario that animals kept outdoors will have their shells worn by the elements.
> I personally don't care for animals that have shells that appear to be made of plastic...



I don't know what you mean by that, Benjamin.
Tortoises are supposed to be outside, having shells worn from the elements is just as normal as worn from age. Pyramiding is not public enemy number one on this forum because its aesthetically displeasing; it's because it's not normal. 

I'm inferring from this post that you mean a perfectly smooth shell looks plastic? Or did I miss something? 



Sent from my iPhone using Tortoise Forum


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## Abdulla6169 (Sep 26, 2014)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> I don't know what you mean by that, Benjamin.
> Tortoises are supposed to be outside, having shells worn from the elements is just as normal as worn from age. Pyramiding is not public enemy number one on this forum because its aesthetically displeasing; it's because it's not normal.
> 
> I'm inferring from this post that you mean a perfectly smooth shell looks plastic? Or did I miss something?
> ...


Maybe he means animals with worn out shells?


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## FLINTUS (Sep 26, 2014)

Ok, let's get rid of the term 'pyramiding' in this thread, and call it abnormal shell growth, which is any shell growth different to what they would naturally have in the wild.
Then under ASG, you can definitely include overfeeding, lighting, temperatures and diet in general into the mix as well, there is plenty of evidence for this, and to maintain a 100% healthy shell there are other factors involved as well, which is why I don't like the 'humidity is the answer, the only answer,' approach that many promote on here, if you see what I mean Tom in particular. Humidity does have a role in a healthy shell, but many wild shells also pyramid. Anyways, I'll be going to rural Kenya next year so I'll see if I can find some pardalis burrows in particular.


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## ascott (Sep 26, 2014)

maggie3fan said:


> You are completely and totally correct. I think I was just mouthing old out dated information...or I got Sulcata and CDT confused in my thinking...



My dear Maggie....if it were not for folks from the "old day ways" there would not be this wonderful Forum....period. Now, with that being said---I have to add to this thread one other thing that makes me cringe....I know that as humans we are always on the hunt for the "new way" the "current way" and in seeing these claims--there is the negative vibe that in some way there is something wrong with the old ways....gosh that annoys me....the "old ways" are the basis for all there is now....without the "old ways" most of the turtles and tortoise around now in their old age would not be here.....yes, there is always room for new thinking, new keeping---but if anyone of those people who spew, "well that was the old way of thinking" would close their pie holes and seriously take in the basics--there would be so many more healthy tortoise now a days...

Maggie, I love to hear what you say----I value what you say and have to offer---there is no way I would ever think you as incorrect---you my dear are a pioneer of this passion....your sister Yvonne is also of great value and worth and you two are a buffet of wealth....please do not ever change the basics you offer....I read something once that you offered up to a thread....it was about a failing tort someone was heartbroken over, the prospect of that baby dying----it was a common situation-- the tort would just lay there, would not eat, would not participate in _its_ life, you were offering some things to try--and one of those things was to not let that baby _sleep its life away_, if necessary--pick the baby up, carry it around, hell--put the baby in their pocket and make it participate....this is the type of information that is essential, this is the type of hope, this is the "coat tail" of your will that you offered up to that person--for them to lean on you and in turn let that baby lean on their will until the baby could find its own will---that is what I took from your share....that is invaluable, immeasurable advice that some of the "new ways" would never have offered....so, please continue to offer your help, your "old ways" of help....your purported "out dated way" of information....these are the things that make a real difference to people who sit in their home, looking at a baby tortoise and who feel completely defeated and overwhelmed....where there is hope there is always chance.....when I first joined this forum, your take was that some babies just don't make it, and this is true...you never chalked it up to "hatchling failure syndrome"....which is just a fancy term for "some babies just don't make it".....

Oh and another thing...there is absolutely no way that a tortoise can over eat is that food item is grass and weeds growing in the yard...now, if you offer grocery store junk always and offer too much of that --then yes, you can overfeed----but even if you overfeed too much grocery store stuff...the dome of the shell will not outgrow the plastron----just won't....there is something else going on....just my opinion.

Also, vets are too overrated....I mean this in regards specifically here to reptiles....unless a vet has a special interest and special training in reptiles, their diagnosing skills for reptile ailments just is not impressive....and if you have a vet that has a special interest paired with actual tortoise hosting--then you have a vet that likely has some first hand impressive information....again, just my opinion....okay all---talk at ya later, off to work now  Have a great day...


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## domalle (Sep 26, 2014)

Tom said:


> You see? This is the sort of post that makes me crazy. How many russians have you raised and cared for over the years? How many have you free fed (too much according to you) and how many have you intentionally under fed? From what I have seen you have one russian tortoise and you have a few months of tortoise experience. Please correct me if I am wrong. You certainly have something going on there, but to blame it on an excess of high fiber weedy food and to be so certain about it, makes no sense. Now you are here posting this info as if it is fact and trying to teach people a lesson. I have raised and cared for dozens of russians over the last few decades. I currently have 20. I have always free fed every single one of them, and currently free feed mine now, as well as letting them graze as much as they want daily, and I have never experienced the problem you are having. In fact my young russians were in 60x18" indoor enclosures, so even smaller than your enclosure, and not a single one out of 20 is experiencing the problem that yours is having.
> 
> When I say they can't be overfed the right stuff, I base it on more than 3 decades of russian experience with dozens of animals housed in a wide variety of circumstances. When you say they can be overfed, you base in on a few months with one tortoise. Do you see why this would make someone want to comment? Now people will say that I've been too harsh and I'm going to scare you away, but this sort of thing needs to be pointed out. It needs to be dealt with. I just cannot leave misinformation hanging out there for people to read and say nothing about it.
> 
> ...


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## Tom (Sep 26, 2014)

Benjamin said:


> My interpretation of this response is that you may be in De Nile that any other factors could contribute to prymiding other than lack of humidity...



You interpretation would be totally incorrect. Sorry. I've had many lengthy discussions about my POV on pyramiding over the years here. It seems you missed those discussions. That's okay. I miss posts all the time too.

And I've never been to De Nile, or even to that part of Africa.


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## Tom (Sep 26, 2014)

FLINTUS said:


> Ok, let's get rid of the term 'pyramiding' in this thread, and call it abnormal shell growth, which is any shell growth different to what they would naturally have in the wild.
> Then under ASG, you can definitely include overfeeding, lighting, temperatures and diet in general into the mix as well, there is plenty of evidence for this, and to maintain a 100% healthy shell there are other factors involved as well, which is why I don't like the 'humidity is the answer, the only answer,' approach that many promote on here, if you see what I mean Tom in particular. Humidity does have a role in a healthy shell, but many wild shells also pyramid. Anyways, I'll be going to rural Kenya next year so I'll see if I can find some pardalis burrows in particular.



I don't think anyone will argue that low humidity is the sole cause of pyramiding in any case. I won't.

I look forward to anything and everything you can share with us about your observations of wild Kenyan tortoises! Please take a good hygrometer and temp probe with you. I don't think anyone will complain of too many pics either!


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## FLINTUS (Sep 26, 2014)

Tom said:


> I don't think anyone will argue that low humidity is the sole cause of pyramiding in any case. I won't.
> 
> I look forward to anything and everything you can share with us about your observations of wild Kenyan tortoises! Please take a good hygrometer and temp probe with you. I don't think anyone will complain of too many pics either!


Of course, I'll see what I can see. It's a volunteering project mainly helping out a local school, but since it is so rural there should be a decent amount of wildlife nearby I would suspect.


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## Benjamin (Sep 27, 2014)

To clarify my comment regarding shells appearing to be made of plastic..animal on the right compared to the left.


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## Benjamin (Sep 27, 2014)

This animal suffered from MBD early in life.


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## Benjamin (Sep 27, 2014)

Flaring of the anterior marginal scutes in cuora picturata due to over eating.


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## leigti (Sep 27, 2014)

Benjamin said:


> Flaring of the anterior marginal scutes in cuora picturata due to over eating.


The anterior flaring is similar to what my tortoise has.


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## ascott (Sep 27, 2014)

I believe you are incorrect in your assumption...here is why I think that.....the tortoise that lives in that shell, is not fat, that tortoise that lives in that shell looks underweight to me.....there is no way that overfeeding of grocery food items nor free grazing is causing that issue, there is plain and simple evidence right in the pic....also, that turtle in the other pic is not heavy either---that flaring is common and likely due to the uva/uvb and dry out time being lacking.....now, you two can jump on me because I happen to not ride the "its a fatty thing train"....but it is clear to me what it is NOT.....


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## Benjamin (Sep 27, 2014)

ascott said:


> I believe you are incorrect in your assumption...here is why I think that.....the tortoise that lives in that shell, is not fat, that tortoise that lives in that shell looks underweight to me.....there is no way that overfeeding of grocery food items nor free grazing is causing that issue, there is plain and simple evidence right in the pic....also, that turtle in the other pic is not heavy either---that flaring is common and likely due to the uva/uvb and dry out time being lacking.....now, you two can jump on me because I happen to not ride the "its a fatty thing train"....but it is clear to me what it is NOT.....


How much experience do you have raising cuora? 
I assure you that my animals are not underweight.


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## ascott (Sep 27, 2014)

> How much experience do you have raising cuora?



ZERO...but I do know about aquatic turtles....and even if I did not, it does not take a genius to see what is fat and what is not...shall we continue with this battle or are you okay now?


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## Benjamin (Sep 27, 2014)

ascott said:


> ZERO...but I do know about aquatic turtles....and even if I did not, it does not take a genius to see what is fat and what is not...shall we continue with this battle or are you okay now?


Very classy reply in this"friendly place to talk turtles".


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## ascott (Sep 27, 2014)

Benjamin said:


> Very classy reply in this"friendly place to talk turtles".



Ahhh come on now, who told you I was a classy broad? Seriously, can we be finished now? I shared my opinion and you did not like it and so you pulled the "how much experience do you have" card and that was a passive aggressive B.S. thing ----so class was met with class....by the way, you have a lovely turtle...


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## Alaskamike (Sep 27, 2014)

ascott said:


> Ahhh come on now, who told you I was a classy broad? Seriously, can we be finished now? I shared my opinion and you did not like it and so you pulled the "how much experience do you have" card and that was a passive aggressive B.S. thing ----so class was met with class....by the way, you have a lovely turtle...


Ascott, you are the most entertaining and skilled writer I've read on any forum in a long time. If writing is not your profession - it should be. I have the feeling you could make someone cry and laugh in the same paragraph. Quite a talent.


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## ascott (Sep 27, 2014)

Alaskamike said:


> Ascott, you are the most entertaining and skilled writer I've read on any forum in a long time. If writing is not your profession - it should be. I have the feeling you could make someone cry and laugh in the same paragraph. Quite a talent.



*big curtsy*


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## Yvonne G (Sep 27, 2014)

I've tried to separate out the OT stuff and set it up in it's own thread. Let's try to keep on topic, please.


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## Yourlocalpoet (Sep 27, 2014)

Benjamin said:


> To clarify my comment regarding shells appearing to be made of plastic..animal on the right compared to the left.



Sorry, I still don't get it. One looks dirtier and the other looks rounder? 

I'm confused.


Sent from my iPhone using Tortoise Forum


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## Abdulla6169 (Sep 27, 2014)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> Sorry, I still don't get it. One looks dirtier and the other looks rounder?
> 
> I'm confused.
> 
> ...


 The one to the left has duller colors, while the one on the right has vibrant color (just focus on the black). The one on the left looks worn out...


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## Abdulla6169 (Sep 27, 2014)

Turtlepete said:


> Accusing someone who has tenfold the experience of you with chelonia of having underweight animals, not allowing a "dry-out time" for cuora (huh?), and not having proper UVB bulbs, and getting upset because they pulled the "experience card", is, well, pretty darn stupid, and entirely classless behavior from who I assume is a grown woman.
> 
> Nice pictures Ben. They do a good job of illustrating the issue you talk about. Sorry your met with such disrespect over it...


How much is the suggested amount of feeding for a turtle then?


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## Yourlocalpoet (Sep 27, 2014)

AbdullaAli said:


> The one to the left has duller colors, while the one on the right has vibrant color (just focus on the black). The one on the left looks worn out...



I see this, yes, but I don't understand the problem. They both look beautiful to me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tortoise Forum


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## Abdulla6169 (Sep 27, 2014)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> I see this, yes, but I don't understand the problem. They both look beautiful to me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tortoise Forum


The one on the left feels old, which is a good... I really like the way time and the outdoors ages them!


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## Tom (Sep 27, 2014)

Benjamin said:


> To clarify my comment regarding shells appearing to be made of plastic..animal on the right compared to the left.




Maybe its my little screen, but I am not seeing a big difference there. Looks like the left one is a little dirtier from living outside, and the one on the right looks more recently rinsed off.

I suppose this is off topic, but you POV does interest me here.


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## tglazie (Sep 27, 2014)

Pyramiding is always such a controversial topic. What I never realized was that I was very lucky to be living in a humid environment. San Antonio, despite having gone through innumerable droughts over the past two decades, has actually been rather humid, rarely if ever falling below fifty percent. So I always assumed (before reading the work of folks on this forum) that pyramiding was 100% a dietary problem. All of the tortoises I've raised over the years have grown smooth, and whenever I saw a pyramided tortoise, I always considered the person who raised the animal to be an uninformed ignoramus. I also noticed that tortoises raised indoors were pyramided regardless of the dietary content, an inconsistency that escaped me until I read posts on this forum, at which point I had this Eureka moment. Of course tortoises indoors pyramid. Humidity in climate controlled environments is unnaturally low. This is also interesting, given that I always dreamed of moving back to New Mexico, where my tortoises would live in an "ideal" environment, failing to realize when I was dreaming of the terminally dry region, the environment would actually be far from ideal. 

San Antonio has some troubles, environmentally speaking. The summers are scorchers here, and spring and autumn are incredibly unpredictable. But overall, I would say that I've been very lucky. My torts have grown smooth with the aid of a fantastically reptile friendly climate and the occasional soak, not like all you other poor folks in the greater southwest with your elaborate closed chambers and extensive indoor setups. 

T.G.


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## Tom (Sep 27, 2014)

tglazie said:


> Pyramiding is always such a controversial topic. What I never realized was that I was very lucky to be living in a humid environment. San Antonio, despite having gone through innumerable droughts over the past two decades, has actually been rather humid, rarely if ever falling below fifty percent. So I always assumed (before reading the work of folks on this forum) that pyramiding was 100% a dietary problem. All of the tortoises I've raised over the years have grown smooth, and whenever I saw a pyramided tortoise, I always considered the person who raised the animal to be an uninformed ignoramus. I also noticed that tortoises raised indoors were pyramided regardless of the dietary content, an inconsistency that escaped me until I read posts on this forum, at which point I had this Eureka moment. Of course tortoises indoors pyramid. Humidity in climate controlled environments is unnaturally low. This is also interesting, given that I always dreamed of moving back to New Mexico, where my tortoises would live in an "ideal" environment, failing to realize when I was dreaming of the terminally dry region, the environment would actually be far from ideal.
> 
> San Antonio has some troubles, environmentally speaking. The summers are scorchers here, and spring and autumn are incredibly unpredictable. But overall, I would say that I've been very lucky. My torts have grown smooth with the aid of a fantastically reptile friendly climate and the occasional soak, not like all you other poor folks in the greater southwest with your elaborate closed chambers and extensive indoor setups.
> 
> T.G.




BINGO!

Your words here are like a beautiful song...


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## ascott (Sep 27, 2014)

> Accusing someone who has tenfold the experience



Tell me what exactly I _*accused*_ anyone of? *Be specific. * With all of your wordy crap---be specific.

Tom, many folks love reptiles, they get them because they are fascinated with them, intrigued and in love with them...sometimes they learn as they go, sometimes they learn after one has died and then there is space somewhere between there.... Josh created this site, _not you_...so folks will have a wealth of information to pull from as well as to offer their opinion, speculation, based on a number of factors... I will not stoop down to the level you now have. You have drawn a clear and deep line in the dirt, I will be certain to never let that discovery fall to the wayside... I wish you well and I will be certain to not mistake your position, with regards to my presence, ever again...thank you for showing your true face. Best wishes.

I am clear and careful to show "in my opinion" or "I" when it comes to observations of species I do not host..._I lay no claim_ to knowing all about every species---but I do offer what I find to be "my opinion" based on information a member provides--- and if that is read as any thing other than that...well, shame on that person.


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## Turtlepete (Sep 27, 2014)

ascott said:


> Tell me what exactly I _*accused*_ anyone of? *Be specific. *



Would be my pleasure. You accused someone much more knowledgable on the subject then you of having underweight turtles, of caring for cuora wrong, because they need a "dry-out" time (?); basically being wrong about a subject that you have zero knowledge nor real experience about.
Trying to stay on topic, Ben's post (or, one of the pictures), as I understand it, was to show a case of over-eating causing shell flaring in C. picturata. You tossed that information aside and decided based on your inexperience that "the picture showed to you clearly" that the turtle wasn't allowed a "dry-out" time, or something along those lines. If your wondering, thats where the accusations come from that your giving advice lacking a proper knowledge base.
I see you've created your own thread to call someone else a snarky coward (that person is making a "snarky coward" T-shirt), which, in essence, is cowardly in itself. But, you've requested this to be deleted, as you didn't appreciate the backfire that accompanied your own snarky replies.

Sorry if my writing is to wordy and crappy.

Now, out of sheer curiosity, I request you explain to me, who stooped where? Did Tom, or I, "show their true face"? You quoted a piece of my post, yet the second paragraph seems to be addressing Tom. Either way, what true face did you find? And certainly never let that discovery fall to the wayside, as you have found a crucial piece of evidence about Tom's (or mine?) true face. (He's actually Batman.)


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## lismar79 (Sep 27, 2014)

Ok, even though I am affraid to be jumped here.....
This is a bit disturbing. I come on here to soak up any info I can get on how to make life better for the creatures in my care. I am not an expert, I have learned everything I know from many of you. I repeat this info to others in hopes of improving their care as well when I see the same info given over and over agian (aka the coil bulb debate). My need to post here is because even though I'm on here daily, I don't count myself as a member of the "group" ( not meant in any way other than that I feel that I am not partial in anyway to one or another member) so I am only swayed by what seems to be logical by occurance not by member. That being said- new people are probably reading this and wondering what kind of place this is..... I have the highest esteam for many of you and I am hoping that any one reading this takes away what passion we ALL have, despite our stance on certain issues, & that is all in the name of improved care of our wonderful tortoises and turtles. Thanks,
Lisa
Ps. I am so apologizing for the spelling errors but I have seemed to have turned off my spell check & have no clue how


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## Tom (Sep 27, 2014)

Lisa, you _are_ one of the group now, like it or not.

We have one of these go 'rounds every few months. Its pretty unavoidable with the wide variety of personalities and sheer number of members on this great forum. Most of us avoid making it personal, keep the insults suppressed, and try to debate the issue at hand. These things are never fun, but they seem to be a necessary part of the experience. It helps all of us learn about each other, and most of the time useful information can be found, even for new people, by reading through this debate. I despise the negativity, but I do like the knowledge that usually comes out of this process. This one too will blow over, and my hope is that people will gain insight into which info to listen too and who is making baseless claims.

Overall, this thread has reminded me personally to be mindful of how I address people. My _primary_ reason for posting info to a noob is to help their tortoise. I defeat my own purpose if I offend them. So there is at least one bit of good that has come from this most recent exchange.


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## Turtlepete (Sep 27, 2014)

Tom said:


> My _primary_ reason for posting info to a noob is to help their tortoise. I defeat my own purpose if I offend them. So there is at least one bit of good that has come from this most recent exchange.



I had thought the original purpose of this thread was to discuss exactly that, how people treat "noobs" that aren't doing it right. I agree with you there, and that is what I was trying to say originally; I don't think people get anywhere as far as being "helpful" to a new owner's tortoise if they insult them and chase them away before they learn anything. It seems to often that it just ends up, "your doing it all wrong, your tortoise will die, jump off a cliff". :/.


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## Tom (Sep 27, 2014)

Turtlepete said:


> I had thought the original purpose of this thread was to discuss exactly that, how people treat "noobs" that aren't doing it right. I agree with you there, and that is what I was trying to say originally; I don't think people get anywhere as far as being "helpful" to a new owner's tortoise if they insult them and chase them away before they learn anything. It seems to often that it just ends up, "your doing it all wrong, your tortoise will die, jump off a cliff". :/.



I think you are right in your assessment.

@Alaskamike ? Sound right?


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## AmRoKo (Sep 27, 2014)

It's Brutal Bloody Bash Night in this thread!

...... Anyways, I have found this thread/subject to be a plethora of information. Very thought provoking by what everyone has said. I don't really have anything to add, I just am enjoying reading all the info being put out here by everyone. You are all very knowledgeable and interesting to read/learn from.


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## G-stars (Sep 27, 2014)

I've been sitting back and watching this one. I've been on this forum for a few months now and I have been keeping an eye on this thread since it started. I don't find anyone on here rude and I have learned a lot of what to do and what not to do from both experienced and new owners. We are all here to learn from each other and share our opinions. The outcome is that everyone has different opinions and we don't always agree on things and personalities do collide. I agree that if bad advice is given it should be corrected. The manner of how this happens should always be in a helpful manner. Hopefully we can all just get along again and get back to why we are here for to love our tortoises!!!


— Gus


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## ascott (Sep 27, 2014)

> But, _you've requested this to be deleted_, as you didn't appreciate the backfire that accompanied your own snarky replies.



You are completely wrong here.....I did not ask for anything to be deleted...just the opposite....I requested that my post be put up ....but was told that it was removed and put in the delete spot because the mods were deciding on what to do with it....so get your tall tales straight.....



> You accused someone much more knowledgable on the subject then you of having underweight turtles,



Again....you are incorrect here.....I made and said from what "I" looked at in the pic that the animal did not appear fat but more like underweight....take that as an accusation if you would like...I really have no concern about your opinion....truly, I don't.

I also would love for you to explain to me....how you figure a turtle or a tortoise has shell deformity, based on the animal being overfed/overweight, yet to look at the animal there is no apparent weight issue....also explain to me how it is that there are a variety of tortoise that have flared shells and are not overfed or overweight...it is a common condition--how about you get your facts straight....

Go to post 95, you will see that the response directed to Tom had everything to do with some deleted post, one of which he clearly directed at me.....also, none of which I requested to be deleted....so speak to the mods if you are so very interested in me....you on the other hand are of no interest to me....have a great night. You are now dismissed from any further conversation with me--well, any that I will reply to----so continue on with your tall tales....


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## tglazie (Sep 27, 2014)

Thanks, Tom. I don't know, I've kept tortoises for years and years, and a wide variety of tortoises at that. I've seen more than most, I recon. I generally consider myself a Testudo specialist (margies in particular), but I've kept sulcatas, leopards, redfoots, Bell's Hingebacks, as well as my fair share of turtle species. And I've made a lot of mistakes, mistakes that were thankfully minimized by my luck of location. 

As for folks on this forum being hostile, I think this is a bit of an over exaggeration. I mean, this isn't a youtube or yahoo comments section; I've never had the misfortune of making a reasonable comment only to be bombarded by some undeserved obscenity given as response within ten minutes by some mindless troll with too much time on his hands. I mean, when I post on this forum, I never expect a fight, and I tend to think of myself as a very reasonable person, so whenever I do disagree with someone, I tend to see myself as being rather conciliatory, clearly defining my position and personal experience concerning the topic at hand, given that I see this forum largely as a means of imparting personal experience, such being the primary and most useful means of conveying information regarding our carpacial comrades. Man, that was a long sentence. I thought of breaking it up, but I think the point flows with relative ease. 

Yes, it is true that one word or one sentence responses to the queries of new people are not helpful and could certainly be construed as rude. In this regard, I'm with Mike in saying, "C'mon, guys, keeping tortoises involves the acquisition of knowledge that is hardly intuitive. Newbies deserve information and explanation, not a single sentence, lest that sentence be an adendum to another's explanation or a question." I mean, there's nothing "common sense" concerning the notion that keeping a tortoise well hydrated and ensuring it has access to a humid environment, especially when there is over three decades worth of misinformation arguing that humidity causes all manner of potential illnesses and maladies. Every reference from those early TFH books to those "new and improved" care guides by the Carapace Press argued that someone keeping tortoises in Florida would have greater difficulty maintaining sulcatas than someone in Arizona, something that those of us with experience know to be the rough equivalent of whistling dixie from one's behind. 

Ultimately, all I'm saying is that we're all in the same boat here, we're all here for the same reason. We all enjoy tortoises. Now, I understand Mike's position that newbies should be given greater reassurance. I remember when I was new to keeping tortoises. I didn't know a damn thing about them, and I was always worried about every little aspect of their husbandry. But I'll tell you this, I was never discouraged by anyone who told me I was doing something wrong. In this respect, I don't feel that anyone reading this forum would be discouraged from keeping tortoises. If you really love your tortoise, and if you are drawn to caring for these animals, then there is nothing else like it, and you will never be satisfied until you get to see and care for one every morning when you wake. I remember when I first read that feeding a tortoises a staple diet of supermarket produce was wrong. I was angry, partly in denial, but very angry that everything I had read up until that point had told me otherwise. I mean, I always felt that TFH books arguing that feeding torts cheese and bread was incredibly idiotic, and to this day, I'm glad I was never so naive as to follow this monstrously foolish advice, but those of us who have been doing this for a long time probably remember those books. We certainly remember the many mistakes we made. And I can tell you that when I was a boy with an adult Greek tortoise roaming a tortoise table that took up a three by four corner in his bedroom, feeding Graecus anything other than six or seven varieties of leafy greens was the furthest thing from my mind. Ensuring he had a moisture rich substrate didn't even occur to me. I'm lucky he was a tough SOB, because I certainly wasn't making life any easier for him. 

But once I got older, I started gaining experience. I set up grazing areas and a greenhouse. I started raising baby marginated tortoises into adults. I got a baby sulcata. I started babysitting and fostering all manner of tortoises. At one point, I had over thirty animals in my care, back when I was in high school with no girlfriend, no car, and no bad habits to distract me, back when I dreamed of becoming a veterinarian. I would cruise about herp shows, scowling at vendors selling pyramided leopards and sulcatas, praising anyone with a smoothly grown tortoise and sharing a few words of trash talk about all the other vendors with their ugly animals and underhanded, clumsy attempts to pass off their inferior stock. I understand the urge to tell these folks that they're screwing up, I really do. I was a totally obnoxious know it all who would never think twice about telling some pet shop staffer that they were caring for their animals improperly. And I didn't restrict my criticism to the chelonian cages. 

Ultimately, this phase came crashing to an end when I went to college out of state. For the first time in my life, I was living on my own, in some smelly dorm room, far from nature, far from my tortoises. I questioned everything about myself. And that included my pursuit of a biology degree. I put up polaroids of Graecus, Jerry, Gino, Little Gino, Lady Gino, as well as many of the young sulcatas I had adopted at the time, so that I might keep them in my mind. My roommate tore them all down and threw them into the trash to spite me for making the room "uncool," which ended in me knocking out two of his teeth with my fist and my reassignment to another room. I was lonely as a freshman, especially at Emory University, a snob factory that really was not right for me for more reasons than I care to get into. But I longed for the return trips home so that I could check on my torts. 

My love affair with the tortoise was really thrown into a tailspin though, after that first winter. My father, God rest him, loved tortoises. He is the one who got me interested in them in the first place, given his having kept California Desert tortoises back in the sixties. But my father and I had very different ideas and philosophies concerning tortoises, and unfortunately, my father's philosophy resulted in the death of four of our adopted sulcatas. Basically, my old man saw a leopard at PetCo, and she was apparently so beautiful that he had to have her. Having not prepared a quarantine enclosure, he decided to just introduce her to the adopted juvenile sulcata colony. Thankfully, everyone else was in separate enclosures. My father worsened this situation, given that he felt no tortoise should sleep alone in order to prevent "loneliness." So, he would house this leopard with one sulcata, then another, then another overnight, where they were all in close quarters. Ultimately, all of these tortoises succumbed to a severe respiratory illness. My father didn't catch this in time, and by the time he took them in for veterinary care, their conditions were too far along. Three sulcatas and one female leopard, all dead of complications from a respiratory illness. By the time I got home, these tortoises were all well into the final stages. My Christmas break was shadowed by the dark specter of giving these poor tortoises end of life care. My relationship with my father was severely strained. I called him stupid for thinking that the tortoises needed friends, that he was so irresponsible as to introduce an animal into the group without a proper quarantine period. I openly questioned his competence in keeping these animals, many times suggesting that I would rather see them all gone than see his incompetence cause one more death. 

I dealt with this very badly. You must understand, my father, even in the face of this monumental failure, refused to acknowledge that he had done anything wrong. Ultimately, I found it easier to simply divorce myself from the tortoises than face the prospect of arguing with my father over the subject anytime we were in the same room. It was easier than I thought it would be. Out of sight really does translate as out of mind. I started burying myself in my studies at school, started spending more and more time away from the home. Then my old man had a stroke. 

I returned home to help stabilize the family finances, but I continued to deal with this situation badly. I resented having to return home to care for my ailing father, that I was missing out on my experience of independence to ensure that my parents remained fiscally solvent. But I did it, out of obligation. Unfortunately, the tortoises, through no fault of their own, came to be the target of this resentment. I adopted out as many as I could, keeping Gino, Little Gino, Lady Gino, Graecus, and Jerry. 

Despite my initial resentment, however, as the years passed, I came to accept my new role. It was never like it was, especially since my father was now mentally disabled, but things were looking up. Then, Jerry contracted an illness, a spinal wasting disease, and just like that, my biggest and only surviving sulcata, suffered a long and slow death, finally passing in the fall of 2011. Two months later, my father also passed. 

After all of this tragedy and tribulation, I learned what was really important. I've since expanded my group of margies, acquiring two more adult females. This year, I've added five more juvenile margies to fill out the future group. I've even entertained the idea of getting another sulcata, though maybe I'm talking crazy. All I know is that in my life, I've screwed up a lot, more than most of the new people here ever will. Yes, I deeply regret these mistakes, and I think about them all the time. But at the same time, I feel that one can't live a life of regrets. The oncoming train of death doesn't offer such luxury. All we can do is our best. But my best is clearly not the standard here. 

There is so much more information now than there has ever been about these creatures, though even now, we've only really scratched the surface. Despite this, I choose to remain hopeful. Those of us who have been at this for a while, every one of us has lost, some of us big time. But when I read this forum, I am filled with hope and optimism, which doesn't happen to a cynic like me, I can tell you. I don't air my political beliefs on this forum, given that I feel it inappropriate, but all of my friends regard me as a political pessimist, through and through. But when I see this forum for the fountain of information that it truly is, for the invaluable resource that provides countless tortoise keepers expert advice on the care and maintenance of their charges, I can only think how lucky we all are to be here, and how devastated I would be at the loss of this priceless community. For me, if the price of admission is having to stomach a few snarky comments, it is a price I will gladly pay. A little advice for the newbies, don't be discouraged by the tone in which information reaches your mind. Many of the members on here have valuable insights into the keeping of these animals. Absorb as much information as possible, as keeping tortoises isn't simple and requires a great deal of work, especially at first. But let me say, the work you put in, if you truly love these animals as I and the overwhelming majority of folks on this forum do, will pay over a thousand fold. Those of us who have experienced the joy of spending a spring afternoon leisurely watching these animals go about their routine can tell you that there's nothing better. 

T.G.


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## G-stars (Sep 28, 2014)

T.G. That left me speechless. Much respect to you. 


— Gus


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## Alaskamike (Sep 28, 2014)

This thread started out of a newish member of this forum (me,


Tom said:


> I think you are right in your assessment.
> 
> @Alaskamike ? Sound right?


Yes .... That's it  

There were two issues - one the way instruction is delivered and the second , the proper interpretation from photos of the health of a tortoise. 

In some ways these are related. 

Both issues seem to hit some hot buttons, stir passions and provoke thought. It is clear there are many folks here with decades of experience and a love for our torts. 

And when I look at the intro posts as well as those of seasoned keepers the concern and care to provide the best we can shines through. 

I am glad so many care enough to create care sheets, do research
, promote health and proper environments. Even Disagreement in the details shows thought and effort. I learn everyday. 

Tortoise keeping is an art , science and passion. I for one am thankful for this forum to discuss and learn more and share it all 
Mike


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## lisa127 (Sep 28, 2014)

Tom said:


> Lisa, you _are_ one of the group now, like it or not.
> 
> We have one of these go 'rounds every few months. Its pretty unavoidable with the wide variety of personalities and sheer number of members on this great forum. Most of us avoid making it personal, keep the insults suppressed, and try to debate the issue at hand. These things are never fun, but they seem to be a necessary part of the experience. It helps all of us learn about each other, and most of the time useful information can be found, even for new people, by reading through this debate. I despise the negativity, but I do like the knowledge that usually comes out of this process. This one too will blow over, and my hope is that people will gain insight into which info to listen too and who is making baseless claims.
> 
> Overall, this thread has reminded me personally to be mindful of how I address people. My _primary_ reason for posting info to a noob is to help their tortoise. I defeat my own purpose if I offend them. So there is at least one bit of good that has come from this most recent exchange.


Honestly, I have found TF to be one of the friendliest and least hostile forums I have ever belonged to. I enjoy it here for that reason.


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## leigti (Sep 28, 2014)

lisa127 said:


> Honestly, I have found TF to be one of the friendliest and least hostile forums I have ever belonged to. I enjoy it here for that reason.


I must agree with Lisa even with all the stuff that came down in this and the separated out thread. Compared to almost any other forum I have ever seen on many topic this form is the most respectful overall. I don't feel like part of "the group" either but that's okay. I will continue to read and learn.


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## Anthony P (Sep 28, 2014)

ascott said:


> You are completely wrong here.....I did not ask for anything to be deleted...just the opposite....I requested that my post be put up ....but was told that it was removed and put in the delete spot because the mods were deciding on what to do with it....so get your tall tales straight.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A turtle can become over or underweight extremely quickly. The fact that there aren't globs of fatty tissue protruding from the shell of that picturata does not mean the shell curling is not correlated to overfeeding. I have an underweight Geoemyda spengleri with flared marginals that are left over from a one month period of overfeeding as a neonate. That's what Ben is eluding to. 

You give your opinion that overfeeding is not the cause in that picturata, but you bring nothing constructive to the discussion. What is the issue, in your opinion? Help the OP by giving your two cents on the issue. If you give your opinion regarding how an accomplished turtle person like Ben is wrong, you better have better ground to stand on than you've shown.

This is concerning for many reasons. I've watched this thread for days without commenting, because I didn't want to get involved. However, I think this is an important moment to mention that these forum chats aren't just a chance to throw out ideas and talk without consequences. Once in a while, we are all lucky enough to have someone like Ben come around to share their insight. Whether you meant to or not, your posts seemed like they were a bit unappreciative. Shame on me, I guess.

We should all keep in mind that there are some talented, experienced, and generous people here who are willing to take time out of their busy day to share their knowledge. My fear is that we may mis out on insight from people who know what they'e talking about, because some unappreciative member wants to dispute what they are trying to share with us.


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## wellington (Sep 28, 2014)

Just a warning. Please be respectful and on topic when posting.


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## ascott (Sep 28, 2014)

> Anthony P said:
> 
> 
> > The fact that there aren't globs of fatty tissue protruding from the shell of that picturata does not mean the _shell curling is not correlated to overfeeding. _
> ...


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## Anthony P (Sep 28, 2014)

Done


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## leigti (Sep 28, 2014)

Thank you Anthony.


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## Benjamin (Oct 23, 2014)

Tom I'm referring to the new growth in comparison to older weathered growth. 
It seems to me to be more of a situation with some species opposed to others. My I.forstenii don't seem as prone as the g.elegans I've hatched/raised through the years. 
Just an afterthought comment I made. I've refered to turtles looking "plastic" for awhile now. "Not there is anything wrong with that".


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## Yellow Turtle01 (Oct 31, 2014)

AmRoKo said:


> It's Brutal Bloody Bash Night in this thread!
> 
> ...... Anyways, I have found this thread/subject to be a plethora of information. Very thought provoking by what everyone has said. I don't really have anything to add, I just am enjoying reading all the info being put out here by everyone. You are all very knowledgeable and interesting to read/learn from.


This is why I like debate threads


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