# Redfoot Care (in depth)



## shawngt2 (Jul 8, 2008)

Everyone (and by everyone I mean only people that have good things to add to this topic - no battle, just discussion) =;-> (P.S. Also follows with all my future posts). If you don't have something positive to add to this thread, move to the next.

Ok, with that being said I will be refering a lot to the redfoots.com care recommendations because that is what I'm doing for my guy/girl, I just need clarification on a few things...You know, to understand the reasoning.
__________________________________
*Calcium:* I'm wonder how hatchlings use the calcium in the food without vit D exposure until 6 months old before they ever get any Vit D in protein fed later? Isn't it supposed to be unusable without D?

*Protein:* Why are we not feeding protein until 6 months of age?

Supplements: Why do we not begin supplementing until 6 months of age?

6 months of age appears to be quite a huge landmark and I'm just trying to make sense of it. I'm not knocking ANY decisions, just asking questions. I assume it's because they must spend most of their time in hiding and not eating any protein until approx. that time.

Shawngt2


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## Redfoot NERD (Jul 8, 2008)

shawngt2 said:


> Everyone (and by everyone I mean only people that have good things to add to this topic - no battle, just discussion) =;-> (P.S. Also follows with all my future posts). If you don't have something positive to add to this thread, move to the next.
> 
> Ok, with that being said I will be refering a lot to the redfoots.com care recommendations because that is what I'm doing for my guy/girl, I just need clarification on a few things...You know, to understand the reasoning.
> __________________________________
> ...



You've answered your own Q? Shawn!

It's that simple. These are babies that are spending time hidden, trying to survive.. munching bugs, grubs and sprouts - all of which provide a source of D vit in a form of protein. So God has provided the balance.... and man tries to help by overdosing everything!

Less is more...

NERD


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## elegans (Jul 8, 2008)

I don't recall the last time God, fed, cleaned, soaked or did anything else for my tortoises? So untill he/she does how about leaving him/her out of the game? Douglas Beard / Flora & Fauna


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## shawngt2 (Jul 9, 2008)

Ok, Now I'm really confused. You mentioned that I answered my own question, but my question was why we don't give protein in the first 6 months (except plant protein, which is incomplete for animal use ie. not all amino acids present). Your theory mentioned that they do eat protein when they are hiding (bugs).

Please Nerd, my question is still unanswered. Why am I not feeding any protein for the first 6 months (minus the plant protein which isn't complete protein) as recommended by you. Are you suggesting that we give worms or bugs to them?

I completely understand about overdoing it. Almost every reptile shop has vitamins available of all kinds and of course we are all trained to think vitamins are a good thing. They are good if they are replacing what you can't get in your diet. It's just unfortunate that the reptile industry uses this to their advantage... 

Thanks,

Shawn


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## Josh (Jul 9, 2008)

Douglas,
In this case God can be synonymous with Mother Nature...there's no need to be offended by someone referring to those natural processes that just seem to work themselves out.

Terry,
I agree with Shawn here... If the hatchlings are eating bugs in the wild but no protein or supplements in capitivity, how does that match up? Are you saying it's purely because of the great mix of plant matter they are getting?


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## Redfoot NERD (Jul 9, 2008)

josh said:


> Douglas,
> In this case God can be synonymous with Mother Nature...there's no need to be offended by someone referring to those natural processes that just seem to work themselves out.
> 
> Terry,
> I agree with Shawn here... If the hatchlings are eating bugs in the wild but no protein or supplements in capitivity, how does that match up? Are you saying it's purely because of the great mix of plant matter they are getting?



Plant 'protein' is a source of D vitamin. At that size ( 6 month's ) the intake from their diet is very small.. AND.. I understand that the 'yolk', although completely absorbed, is a source of nutrients for awhile also. So of course Josh the higher in calcium, etc. content the greens have that they consume.. as early as possible.. the better! Then at the 6 month old 'size' is when we start adding "additional" amounts of D in the form of animal protein which is much higher concentrated. But not "supplements"!

As stated in the Turtletary caresheet:

We believe it's too easy to "over-supplement" the first year.. especially!!! 
In fact.. quoting a major sulcata breeder..

"One of the biggest medical problems..
with hatchling tortoises today.. is overdosing of vitamins."

So I'm walking a fine line with these 'parameters':

1) to keep the hatchling healthy

2) to keep the inexperienced keeper from "falling prey" to the pet industry and old 'outdated' internet info found [ as a result of those that advocate.. "research-research-research" ].. which is what has caused this flood of "unhealthy" hatchlings in the first place! 

When I say walking a fine line I also have to make it as simple as possible also. Then factor in the human nature that wants to improve on what has already been proven to work.. [ so here comes the "opposition" AGAIN ].....

I've got your "hat" on Robyn!!! And I'm not sweating..






Terry


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## Yvonne G (Jul 9, 2008)

Redfoot NERD said:


> I have to make it as simple as possible also. Then factor in the human nature that wants to improve on what has already been proven to work..
> Terry



This is why, when advising new tortoise keepers what to feed their new tortoise, I NEVER, NEVER use the word "lettuce". A new keeper hears that word and automatically thinks, "iceburg." Then, "How easy is that!!"

Yvonne


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## shawngt2 (Jul 9, 2008)

Terry, Thank you, that's exactly what I was looking for. Reasons so I can understand most of your decisions. It makes me feel more comfortable understanding 'why' vs just doing what someone recommends... It only benifits the red foot more.

Shawn



emysemys said:


> Redfoot NERD said:
> 
> 
> > I have to make it as simple as possible also. Then factor in the human nature that wants to improve on what has already been proven to work..
> ...


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## elegans (Jul 9, 2008)

Redfoot NERD said:


> Plant 'protein' is a source of D vitamin. At that size ( 6 month's ) the intake from their diet is very small.. AND.. I understand that the 'yolk', although completely absorbed, is a source of nutrients for awhile also. So of course Josh the higher in calcium, etc. content the greens have that they consume.. as early as possible.. the better! Then at the 6 month old 'size' is when we start adding "additional" amounts of D in the form of animal protein which is much higher concentrated. But not "supplements"!
> 
> As stated in the Turtletary caresheet:
> 
> ...





OK so you have said this again. So what empirical evidence do you have to back up your claims? Hypo and hyper vitaminosis present themselves the same way. Simple is always good, but again there is not only one way to raise a redfoot. Douglas


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## Crazy1 (Jul 9, 2008)

Ok I've tried to stay out of this one. This is not the debate thread. So here is the Miriam Webster online dictionary definition for Emperical evidence. 
empirical means: 1 : originating in or based on observation or experience <empirical data> 2 : relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory <an empirical basis for the theory> 3 : capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment <empirical laws> 

Redfoot NERD has Showed pics of his documented outcomes with Redfoots. Thus observation and experience. 
I don't think anyone has ever said there is only one way to raise a redfoot. Just look on the net there are many.
Advocating for what you believe and not against what others believe makes a much better fit.
Now if this is to continue in this direction I feel it should be taken to the debate forum. That's my take on it.


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## JustAnja (Jul 10, 2008)

Terry may I ask exactly how long you have been raising Redfoots?


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## Redfoot NERD (Jul 10, 2008)

JustAnja said:


> Terry may I ask exactly how long you have been raising Redfoots?



Bought the first 3 in Dec. '98.. 10/98 hatchlings. 






They laid their first eggs in 8/04.

First hatchling..











Most recent pic.. 8/07..






Sorry Anja.. more than you asked for..

Terry K


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Jul 10, 2008)

Terry! That is no where near exact enough! Oh wait..... never mind.... = )


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Jul 10, 2008)

I also think this should be moved to the debate. 

Now this is a Conversation forum. So please add more to the conversation then criticisms.


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## shawngt2 (Jul 10, 2008)

So you all know, I had a good 2 hour conversation on the phone with Terry last night - very constructive. I have a much more thorough understanding behind the decisions that were made. A lot of the decisions were based on experience. Terry, maybe on your site along with all the directions in redfoot care you can also add a useful fact on WHY you choose to recommend certain things. (ie. feeding regime, because it insures a regulated amount of each food group so you know what works based on outcome vs having the tortoise eat whatever it wants [like it eating protein daily and leaving the greens behind]) or (No supplements or protein for the first 6 months because of the reasons you descibed in the previous post). ONE central page that will have your recommendations, reasoning and experience behind every decision.

Thanks again for the conversation. Let this be a public appology if I gave you a hard time previously. I learned a lot from you last night. There's also a lot others can learn by this added information!

Shawn


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## Redfoot NERD (Jul 10, 2008)

shawngt2 said:


> So you all know, I had a good 2 hour conversation on the phone with Terry last night - very constructive. I have a much more thorough understanding behind the decisions that were made. A lot of the decisions were based on experience. Terry, maybe on your site along with all the directions in redfoot care you can also add a useful fact on WHY you choose to recommend certain things. (ie. feeding regime, because it insures a regulated amount of each food group so you know what works based on outcome vs having the tortoise eat whatever it wants [like it eating protein daily and leaving the greens behind]) or (No supplements or protein for the first 6 months because of the reasons you descibed in the previous post). ONE central page that will have your recommendations, reasoning and experience behind every decision.
> 
> Thanks again for the conversation. Let this be a public appology if I gave you a hard time previously. I learned a lot from you last night. There's also a lot others can learn by this added information!
> 
> Shawn



Good to hear Shawn.. thank you.

Our conversation was a learning experience for me too.

Terry K - aka NERD


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## shawngt2 (Jul 10, 2008)

Awesome.

Hey, I ran into this add a few months back and this guy had this redfoot for 2 years. He looked to be in great shape and I was curious and asked him what he did to take care of him. Here are pictures and his response. For reference and discussion. It's great to see other methods that work with proof like this.














His resonse to me asking his care routine;

"""I fed them dandelion greens, romain, spinach, carrots, squash,( very little berry of any kind that is not too exotic is ok in small ammounts as a treat most fruits are ok as a treat in small ammounts you dont want to give them too much sugar) endive, chicori, some times I give them beans fresh ones mostly green beans, a lot of these veggies have enough protien to keep them going but I like to feed mine a few earth worms a month about twice a week ( BUY THEM FROM A CLEAN REPUTABLE BAIT SHOP ) dont feed them crickets and all live foods they sell at the pet stores. I DO NOT USE SUPPLEMENTS  They are not needed big waist of cash and if they are fed properly they will do more damage than good because you will be over doing the vits and minerals. This can cause kidney, gallbladder problems or failure as well as gout. This will suck for you and the tort  

Another thing is bedding it is best to use the husk from coconuts but when using this make sure it is always clean and not in the torts eyes. You might have to make sur ethe eyes are clean from the husk if not clean them with some warm water and a swab. I like the husk because they can burry in it. The husk will stay damp and this is very good for shell development.

Water WATER IS VERY IMPORTANT make sure it is clean cool and NEVER OUT  They live for water. All the care sites dont mention this but it is very important for their health and shell. make sure they can soak in and drink from the dish.""""

Interesting... Obviously there are some no no's in his raising but it's nice to know that they aren't THAT sensitive to getting MBD. More proof that supplements are not needed. Obviously surprised with some of the items being fed but maybe it is possible that they don't need much fruit and protein? He only gave worms and sounds like fruit wasn't that often. Maybe this is another method that works? Of course I'm not sure how consistent he was with this diet.

Shawn


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## shawngt2 (Jul 10, 2008)

Here's some photos of my setup (obviously redfoots.com influenced) and my little guy (obviously cherryhead).


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## Yvonne G (Jul 10, 2008)

I'm curious why you don't have substrate over the whole bottom of the habitat?

Yvonne


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## shawngt2 (Jul 10, 2008)

He spends most of his time in the hide and it's easier to clean this way. When he's older and out more, I will have the entire bottom filled.


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## Crazy1 (Jul 10, 2008)

Shawn, did the guy have adults he had raised the same way so we could see the long term results?
By the way your RF is cute he has a interesting scute pattern.


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## Jacqui (Jul 11, 2008)

Redfoot NERD said:


> 2) to keep the inexperienced keeper from "falling prey" to the pet industry and old 'outdated' internet info found [ as a result of those that advocate.. "research-research-research" ].. which is what has caused this flood of "unhealthy" hatchlings in the first place.
> Terry



Okay, normally I control my temper enough to at least read the rest of the thread, this time I will not.

I am one who very strongly advocates continued researching. How else do we learn to move on to better, more adequate and healthier care for our tortoises? Do we simply stop trying to learn and improve? I guess from your stance that research is a bad thing, you yourself never have done any? Never plan to do more since you have "the perfect" plan? 

I think the "flood" came from blind sheep following of any one given way to do things...and the lack of research.

Yes, I do think this post should be in the debate section. However this is where Nerd made his comment. I think it would be remiss of me to not question such a blatantly ill advised comment as to not research your animal's care. Sorry to those others reading this post and thread.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jul 11, 2008)

I have a few very simple and sincere Q?'s for everybody/anybody.

Can anyone show me where I have written that the Turtletary way of raising redfoot tortoises is the only way?

Can anyone show me where I have written that the Turtletary way of feeding redfoot tortoises is the only way?

Can anyone show me where I have written that the Turtletary way is the only way.. and every other way is wrong?

Can anyone show me where I have written that you don't need to research how to care for redfoots anyplace other than Turtletary.com or Redfoots.com?

The only reference to researching I have ever made is.. "The more you research.. the more contradiction you will find and the more confused you will become". That statement is based on the 'weekly' emails I receive and/or posts we get at Redfoots.com.. saying just that. Where is the "updated" info for redfoot tortoises?

I'm not frustrated, irritated, mad, or confused.. just curious for answers. Can anyone help?

Terrt K


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## JustAnja (Jul 11, 2008)

Sorry but that is how you come across in all of your posts here and from what people have told me all of your posts over on your forums. That your way is THE only way and if people dont listen to you then you treat them badly.


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## shawngt2 (Jul 12, 2008)

Ok, Terry and I had a nice long discussion about that and maybe he wasn't aware that he was coming across that way, but he does now. As for tortoise care, yes, nobody replicates what they get in their natural habitat. We just need to continue discussing ideas, mistakes, what works (and we all know there is more than one way that works - Terry is nice enough to share and put all that effort into explaining what worked for him). In the end, we just need a continuous improvement approach but that obviously is not a day to day thing, it's year to year.

Shawn


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## Jacqui (Jul 12, 2008)

shawngt2 said:


> Ok, Terry and I had a nice long discussion about that and maybe he wasn't aware that he was coming across that way, but he does now. As for tortoise care, yes, nobody replicates what they get in their natural habitat. We just need to continue discussing ideas, mistakes, what works (and we all know there is more than one way that works - Terry is nice enough to share and put all that effort into explaining what worked for him). In the end, we just need a continuous improvement approach but that obviously is not a day to day thing, it's year to year.
> 
> Shawn



Very nicely said! I hope he also understands we are not attacking the work he has done, nor him. His care sheet is indeed one of the most impressive, if not the most impressive one I have had the pleasure of reading on any type of turtle or tortoise. 

Like I told him in private, I have a questioning mind and like to see first hand proof and more concrete type evidence. What I had told him, that I would most dearly love to do is a small comparison experiment. Still would not be a complete situation, but would help me at least. 

The experiment I would like to do, is to take at least 4 groups of at least two hatchling RF from the same clutch, raise them at the same time in side-by-side environments as perfectly matched as could be set ups. One group gets raise totally by the book Nerd's way. One group gets Nerd's diet, but the standard UV lights situation. One group gets Nerd's lighting practices, but the more the old standard diet. The last group gets diet and lighting the more old standard way.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jul 12, 2008)

OK.. it's all in the perception.

So:

It's not what is said.. it's how it's said.
It's not how it's said.. it's how it's meant.
It's not how it's meant.. it's how it's taken.

My first and foremost concern is redfoot tortoises. They don't display egos or emotions. They don't Q? anything or falsely accuse me of everything. They must be thankful because they thrive and [ according to several.. including y'all ] they look great. So I try to keep it as simple as possible without displaying ego, emotion or judgement. 

Do you want to hear about the multitude of "horror stories" that we've heard in the past few years? Most based on old out-dated info on the internet.. greedy breeders/pet stores and close minded/uneducated Vets. - true more and more are becoming educated.. which is good for our critters! Put your name out there.. you'll find out!

When 'newbies' contact me they tell me of all the contradicion as a result of all of their research.. and are glad they found Turtletary.com/Redfoots.com - because of how simple and effective the guidelines are.

We ask that everyone reads our "purpose" FIRST.. so they can better utilize redfoots.com and not have any misunderstandings. But it never fails.. they don't.. and they ask Q?'s that have already been answered. So I tell them/insist that they *"..research and read and follow every link.." *and your Q?'s will be answered. [ some of the links refer to "updated/reputable(?) info ] Unfortunately some have been so brain-washed that they can't or won't accept the "updated" info so they Q? our guidelines. That's their option.. so at that point I tell them to do what they think is right [ and yes ].. "you're on your own".

What is unclear about our format on redfoots.com? Remember it's our story.. so we'll tell it anyway we want. How can you give anyone grief for that?

http://redfoots.com/smf/index.php?topic=30.0

Our "PURPOSE" [ from redfoots.com ]:

Our "PURPOSE" 
Ã‚Â« on: July 29, 2006, 05:49:04 PM Ã‚Â» 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The purpose of this informational site is to provide info that we have learned about redfoot tortoises since 1998. And present that info as simple and concise as we possibly can.

I'll start by saying THANK YOU!!! to all that have taken the time to read what we have learned.

When this info helps you.. tell us and others.. please. It's all for the Gregarious G. carbonaria.. aka Redfoot tortoise.

Now for the "guidelines" we purpose to follow.. to keep this simple and concise. Because this is not a chat forum we have to have "guidelines".

PLEASE SEE "UPDATE" BELOW

1) Please research thru all "topics and links" available.. related to Redfoots.com.. before posting a Q?

Many hours and years have been put into creating this info. And we are happy to answer ALL Q?'s that have not been covered in the above! So you can see why it can be disturbing to answer Q? that have already been answered in the above. 

2) If/When you have a different opinion/experience.. we want to hear about it so we ALL can learn from it! This can be one of those: We learn from what "to do".. or what "not to do"!!!

When you bring "different" info here please include a link or basis for that info. (please see "Home" page.. http://www.redfoots.com/main.htm)

Therefore we encourage you to be sure.. as you research the WWW. "Redfoot tortoise" world out there.. that the info you have found comes from a source that has at least like experience as stated thru-out this and our related 'sites. 
Not someone that has a 2 year old redfoot that is 7 inches long, weighs 14 pounds and looks like a pineapple! You get the idea!

3) Please don't be insulted or surprised if your post is deleted or moved: 

a} Moved - because it simply falls under a different topic.. 

b} Deleted - because we feel it has already been answered under a topic.. so we encourage you to research further. If you still can't find the answer simply PM me. 
- OR - Your post does not fall in line with our purpose.. and at that time I will PM you as to why.

Because there are a multitude of scenarios based on speculation.. (and what others have said elsewhere).. we only deal with Q?'s we have dealt with personally. We have found that many situations do not occur when our "guidelines" are followed.

ANYTHING that you like about this or related site or link please post in the "What did you learn" topic. Anything you don't like.. or are concerned about.. PM me please. I will reply ASAP!

Thank you.. havafunwun...

Terry

The time for updates and maintenance is upon us here in 2008. Starting immediately we are in the process of purging all "Care" topics of duplicate questions and answers and "locking" those topics. By doing this we will be creating a FAQ page for each topic. 

We realize there still will be a "legitimate" question that will arise from time to time.. and those can be asked in the "What did you learn" topic. We will review each question on a regular basis and post it and the answer in the appropriate topic. If your question is deleted it means that it has been answered previously.. nothing personal.. keep reading and you'll find the answer. 

This is in an effort to return to the original format of being an "Informational" site with no chatter.. and eliminating input that does not line up with our proven "formula"! Of course the "Chatroom, Introduce Yourself, Food Plants & Seed and the Material rooms" are still open!!! Have fun!!!

How many times have I asked/insisted/encouraged everyone to *research*?

What you see is what you get with Turtletary and redfoots.com.. We've tried to do our part.. so we simply ask that you do yours...

Redfoot NERD

BTW.. while you're at it take a look here.. http://redfoots.com/smf/index.php?board=13.0

And keep in mind I did keep a few on there to demonstrate how some just absolutely refuse to 'respect' our efforts and concern.


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## Madkins007 (Jul 14, 2008)

shawngt2 said:


> *Calcium:* I'm wonder how hatchlings use the calcium in the food without vit D exposure until 6 months old before they ever get any Vit D in protein fed later? Isn't it supposed to be unusable without D?



Just a quick FYI: Mushrooms can contain, on average, about 5400 IU of vitamin D per 100 grams of food- a much higher 'dose' than any protein commonly eaten by Red-foots (only some fish are even close), and fungi form a part of the diet of nearly every forest herbivore. 

Considering that mushrooms have few calories, a terrible Ca ratio (.04:1), and not a ton of other nutrients, you gotta wonder if the main reason the fungi are part of the diet is to help with Vit. D for calcium metabolism.


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## Itort (Jul 15, 2008)

Madkins007 said:


> shawngt2 said:
> 
> 
> > *Calcium:* I'm wonder how hatchlings use the calcium in the food without vit D exposure until 6 months old before they ever get any Vit D in protein fed later? Isn't it supposed to be unusable without D?
> ...


I think you have a very valid observation there. My Rfs, MEPs, and boxes (all forest torts) eat mushrooms with gusto (may not get as much as they like). All research I've done mentions mushrooms as part of wild diet but no percentages or such.


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Jul 15, 2008)

Considering that mushrooms have few calories, a terrible Ca ratio (.04:1), and not a ton of other nutrients, you gotta wonder if the main reason the fungi are part of the diet is to help with Vit. D for calcium metabolism.
[/quote]

Seems like anything living on the forrest floor couldnt eat anything with out mushrooms already on it. I think we would be shocked if we seen some of the nasty , moldy, rotten, fungi laden food our redfoots eat in the wild. Not to mention they probably eat any poop they find also.


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## elegans (Jul 15, 2008)

A good friend of mine once relayed a story about being in Columbia in the 1970s collecting animals when he heard what sounded like thunder in the forest. He went looking for the cause of all of this noise and found an adult male redfoot with a dead squirrel monkey in its mouth running from a group of other redfoots that were in hot pursuit to get their own piece of it. Who knew? LOL Best wishes to everyone. Douglas


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## Itort (Jul 15, 2008)

elegans said:


> A good friend of mine once relayed a story about being in Columbia in the 1970s collecting animals when he heard what sounded like thunder in the forest. He went looking for the cause of all of this noise and found an adult male redfoot with a dead squirrel monkey in its mouth running from a group of other redfoots that were in hot pursuit to get their own piece of it. Who knew? LOL Best wishes to everyone. Douglas


That had to be a sight. LOL


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Jul 15, 2008)

Thats is very cool. Dead monkeys are a long way away from that "perfect" super market produce that most love to feed their torts.


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## terryo (Jul 15, 2008)

It is very hard to find a dead monkey in NY. Sometimes here in the North, it is hard to get that perect super market produce in the winter, so I know many people here who feed their Redfoots and Sulcata's, and even boxies, Mazuri. I saw this article, and tried to post it on Redfoots.com, and it was not allowed, so it was deleted. I thought it was a wonderful read. I hope Ed won't mind if I post it here. The pictures are great. Oops, maybe this is another topic for the debate forum.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1440213,1440213


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## terryo (Jul 15, 2008)

Just a quick PS I don't feed my Tort mazuri. So far I have not had a problem finding the right greens or fruit in the winter here in SI. We have lots of speciality stores here.


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## Jacqui (Jul 15, 2008)

After watching how mine come running and tear into the occasional mouse I toss in, I can easily see that scene with the monkey.

Have any of you actually ever saw yours go after snakes? Not something I have witness, but I recall a friend long ago talking about how his group loved to catch (and eat) the snakes in his yard.


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## terryo (Jul 15, 2008)

I know of an older woman who keeps Redfoots and boxies in a well planted yard for the summer. She was telling us that her cat catches field mice that go into her basement, and leaves them in the yard for her boxies and Redfoots. Mine will have to be satisfied with dried cat food. I hate feeding pinkies and mice. Yuk!!


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## ArkansasKelly (Jul 16, 2008)

I have a turkey farm and we have to cull turkeys that do not grow. I have started tossing freshed killed culled turkeys into the redfoot and box turtle pens and they go nuts fighting over them. Also, when my dogs find and kill animals such as rabbits and such, I toss the remains in the pen and those are also eaten with gusto. Can't say my torts do not get their protein intake. LOL

ARKelly


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## Redfoot NERD (Jul 16, 2008)

Can anyone tell me how and WHY this ended up in a debatable topic?

Terry K


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## JustAnja (Jul 16, 2008)

Well, because it is and has been a very debatable topic.


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## Itort (Jul 16, 2008)

I believe the last few posts point out that RFs unlike many other torts due have a significant animal protein intake after the hatchling stage. In my eyes this shows that RFs have different dietary requirements than is acknowledged by many.


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Jul 16, 2008)

ArkansasKelly said:


> I have a turkey farm and we have to cull turkeys that do not grow. I have started tossing freshed killed culled turkeys into the redfoot and box turtle pens and they go nuts fighting over them. Also, when my dogs find and kill animals such as rabbits and such, I toss the remains in the pen and those are also eaten with gusto. Can't say my torts do not get their protein intake. LOL
> 
> ARKelly



Kelly, did they eat the turkey bones ? Ive always heard that because the bones splinter you shouldnt feed them to your dogs. Have you ever had a problem with them eating the bones? Also how often do you feed them turkeys? It isnt something you did one time or somthing like that right?


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## ArkansasKelly (Jul 16, 2008)

[/quote]

Kelly, did they eat the turkey bones ? Ive always heard that because the bones splinter you shouldnt feed them to your dogs. Have you ever had a problem with them eating the bones? Also how often do you feed them turkeys? It isnt something you did one time or somthing like that right?
[/quote]

Yes, they eat the bones also. If anyone ever doubted the strength of a torts jaws, all they have to do is watch them eat bones. It is amazing.

I have never had problems with them eating the bones or anything else. Except maybe the feet, of course, I would not eat those either.  I have never witnessed splintering the turkey bones, but I guess that is always possible.

As far as feeding turkey, I give them one or more (depends on size) at least every 2 weeks. I will say they like chicken better, but they will tolerate turkey, if they have to. LOL

ARKelly

P.S. My dog eats live/dead/rotten turkey all the time and he has never had problems with the bones. Remember, what I feed are fresh killed. Most bones that are fed to dogs have gone through the cooking phase and the bones have become brittle.


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Jul 16, 2008)

ohhhh ok that makes sense about the cooking that makes them brittle. 

Can you take some pictures next time they eat a turtkey? If you dont feel comfortable posting them online because of other people you can email them to me. I am really interested in seeing them eat a turkey. 

I am thinking I need to feed a lot more protien to my adults...


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## terryo (Jul 16, 2008)

Kelly, maybe you could post the pictures. I would like to see that too. Aren't the turkey's way bigger than the torts?


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## ArkansasKelly (Jul 16, 2008)

I have no problems posting pictures of them eating a turkey. I will just warn people before they look at it.

Terryo: I grow what is called small grown turkeys so they are only 10 weeks old or 10lbs when they are shipped to market. Right now, the birds are 4 weeks of age so they are only about 2-3lbs. One that size is perfect for my 4 adults reds.

ARKelly


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## terryo (Jul 17, 2008)

oh..ok. I was thinking of a Thanksgiving Turkey. We always get at least 20 - 22 lbs. lol


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## ArkansasKelly (Jul 17, 2008)

Most people think that when they think of turkey. Those are normally heavy hens and toms. We are just a few farms that grow the small grown birds. If you ever go into the grocery store and pick up the, oh lets say, 3lb turkey breast, that is what ours is normally grown for.

I do have about 60lbs of turkey breast meat in the freezer, but that would not be good to feed to the torts because it has been injected with the butter mix. They would probably like it, but it would not be good for them. 

I fed a turkey last week and would normally feed another one next week, but I will feed one this week to see if the torts will eat it and get some pictures. Most of the time they will not eat one every week, but we shall see.

ARKelly


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