# to induce or not to induce



## lvstorts (Feb 13, 2012)

Hi all,
I have a 11 year old Redfoot, Virginia, who is a stubborn egg layer. Here is her MO: She'll dig nest after nest after nest (in the same place) and never lay anything, this will go on for months. She'll finally lay her eggs. Based on the one clutch she's given me so far: she laid 4 and 1 was calcified and only one survived to hatch but died a day later. 

Here is the scoop now. She's got 4 eggs in her (xray verification). She's digging every chance she gets (still winter here, doesn't like what I provided her in her pen) and still not laying anything. She's dug 8 nests in the past 2 months. She's not straining or stressing. Eating and activity are normal except she's a bit agitated I think because she wants the eggs out! 

Should I induce? I'm really hesitant because I've heard how hard it is on the torts. I don't want to cause any harm. Does anyone have direct experience with inducing?

Thanks in advance.


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## ascott (Feb 13, 2012)

Hey...there is this forum member who has this awesome heat lamp stand that he uses to allow his girl to be outside and lay her eggs in a spot she likes ( I won't mention any names, BigRed)....are you able to do something like this? It would horrible for her to get into a bad way...

Jeez, I hope some one can give you some valuable insight....


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## lvstorts (Feb 13, 2012)

It's a great idea and I've done it repeatedly. It doesn't seem to help her.





ascott said:


> Hey...there is this forum member who has this awesome heat lamp stand that he uses to allow his girl to be outside and lay her eggs in a spot she likes ( I won't mention any names, BigRed)....are you able to do something like this? It would horrible for her to get into a bad way...
> 
> Jeez, I hope some one can give you some valuable insight....


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## Katherine (Feb 13, 2012)

I have not ever induced my own tortoises but have had a 70lb gravid female sulcata who is a fussy layer inside for the winter while gravid and can definitely appreciate your dilemma! How long ago were the eggs confirmed on X-ray? What are her current quarters like? Where did she ultimately lay last time, in what type of substrate, etc? Is it possible to give her access to the nest area she previously used? If it were my tortoise I would try as many options as possible (including letting her outside to dig in winter) prior to inducing. If interested I had a simple cheap 'tent' made the year I had a similar dilemma and was able to get my girl to use it outside and could take and upload a pic of it. In hindsight it may not have been needed (she has laid many winters since all alone in the cold) but if you are concerned about temp it might work for you.


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## ascott (Feb 13, 2012)

> I've done it repeatedly. It doesn't seem to help her.




Darn....well, I hope you will get additional help here...that was all I could think of...


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## Katherine (Feb 13, 2012)

ascott said:


> Darn....well, I hope you will get additional help here...that was all I could think of...



I have no idea how to search or bump threads but I know there was one in past few month about a tortoise who was given hormone stimulants for induction.... Wish I could remember who!


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## ascott (Feb 13, 2012)

> I know there was one in past few month about a tortoise who was given hormone stimulants for induction.... Wish I could remember who!



I kinda recall seeing something too....but don't remember species or anything to use as a search either....ugh


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## Katherine (Feb 13, 2012)

Maybe I'm loopy but I thought it was a redfoot as well? Also I'm 99% sure it was given oxytocin if that helps and you feel like looking into it : D


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## ascott (Feb 13, 2012)

> Maybe I'm loopy but I thought it was a redfoot as well?




Lucky you, you still have doubt  I on the other hand already know I am loopy....LOL


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## tortuga_please (Feb 13, 2012)

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-russians--33866?page=2#axzz1mKUaPf9n post #25; oxytocin is used to induce egg laying in an egg bound or gravid female. This link: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/Nestsites.htm has some more info, I'll post a link on where to get it in a moment

You can buy it here, a trip to the vet might yield the same response http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=1440 hope it helps :-D


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## ALDABRAMAN (Feb 13, 2012)

Maybe get some direction and advice from your vet that took the x-rays.


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## ascott (Feb 13, 2012)

> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-russ...z1mKUaPf9n post #25; oxytocin is used to induce egg laying in an egg bound or gravid female. This link: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/Nestsites.htm has some more info, I'll post a link on where to get it in a moment



Oh thank goodness...that was making me crazy  



> Maybe get some direction and advice from your vet that took the x-rays.



Totally agree, I would not think something that you would want to take on yourself....


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## lvstorts (Feb 14, 2012)

Thanks all for the advice. I already have the injections waiting. I've been working with a vet on this. My vet is not a reptile vet (doesn't claim to be) and we work together on things. Her opinion is to wait because everything else is normal. 

Eggs were confirmed on x-ray in January. 

She has access to the place she laid the first time but abondans that as well. 

I'll check out the thread on inducing.


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## Kirsten_Lenz (Feb 14, 2012)

My small 5 yr old red foot just laid her first non-fertile egg yesterday without any apparent problem despite the egg being huge compared to her. I've had an egg bound herp before (leopard gecko) but I sold her because I could afford the vet care to help her pass them. I had no idea my tortoise was even capable of producing an egg at her age but that just shows how little I know. Are red foots generally temperamental about where they lay their clutches? Mine didn't dig at all but just popped it out and left it on the top of the substrate.

Kirsten


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## lvstorts (Feb 14, 2012)

In my experience has taught me not all gals are the same. I have another gal that digs and lays in an hour without fail! It's a common belief that infertile eggs are laid without digging. Be cautious if you ever put her with a male (in a couple more years, she's pretty small to start breeding, in my opinion) and she lays on top of the ground. I've have 2 laid on top of the ground and hatch into healthy torts. Lots of info out there. An excellent book to pick up is The Redfoot Manual by Mike Pingleton, Art gecko Publishing. 

Good luck with your tort!




Kirsten_Lenz said:


> My small 5 yr old red foot just laid her first non-fertile egg yesterday without any apparent problem despite the egg being huge compared to her. I've had an egg bound herp before (leopard gecko) but I sold her because I could afford the vet care to help her pass them. I had no idea my tortoise was even capable of producing an egg at her age but that just shows how little I know. Are red foots generally temperamental about where they lay their clutches? Mine didn't dig at all but just popped it out and left it on the top of the substrate.
> 
> Kirsten


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## zesty_17 (Feb 14, 2012)

i have induced my little ornate a few times. she is notorious for creating extremely large viable/healthy, but very large looking eggs. she had some mbd as a juvenile and has since overcome this with permanent stunted shell growth, but her pelvis is adult size with great bone density and is able to pass normal to some large eggs. 

To make a long story short, yes i am ok with using oxytocin and calcium injections under a very keen observation. The first year we used oxytocin with no ca, she laid them within an hour. the next time though, she did not lay until she received the ca injection as well. I give her tums, calcium powder in a bowl, cuttle bone, and small bird gravel when she is gravid. I usually wait as long an absolutely possible before giving her any of this, as although she always waits longer than i want before starting to lay naturally-she knows when she is ready better than i do. I always always confirm with an xray for this particular turtle due to the huge egg problem, and have even aspirated a partially 'stuck' egg on my own---not fun. My advice is, if the eggs are normal size, normal position and she is not struggling, tiring, or dehydrating trying to lay them-wait and give her the benefit of the doubt before injecting. Although torts in general respond well to oxytocin, long term use has its negative effects, just like with inducing human women. If you do decide to use oxytocin and your vet has not already given you an injection form of calcium, i would ask for some to give simultaneously with the oxy. 



zesty_17 said:


> i have induced my little ornate a few times. she is notorious for creating extremely large viable/healthy, but very large looking eggs. she had some mbd as a juvenile and has since overcome this with permanent stunted shell growth, but her pelvis is adult size with great bone density and is able to pass normal to some large eggs.
> 
> To make a long story short, yes i am ok with using oxytocin and calcium injections under a very keen observation. The first year we used oxytocin with no ca, she laid them within an hour. the next time though, she did not lay until she received the ca injection as well. I give her tums, calcium powder in a bowl, cuttle bone, and small bird gravel when she is gravid. I usually wait as long an absolutely possible before giving her any of this, as although she always waits longer than i want before starting to lay naturally-she knows when she is ready better than i do. I always always confirm with an xray for this particular turtle due to the huge egg problem, and have even aspirated a partially 'stuck' egg on my own---not fun. My advice is, if the eggs are normal size, normal position and she is not struggling, tiring, or dehydrating trying to lay them-wait and give her the benefit of the doubt before injecting. Although torts in general respond well to oxytocin, long term use has its negative effects, just like with inducing human women. If you do decide to use oxytocin and your vet has not already given you an injection form of calcium, i would ask for some to give simultaneously with the oxy.


oh yeah, forgot to add... if she doesn't lay within a few hours of the injection, i would wait a week-2weeks before trying again. it is pretty stressful on their bodies and they need time to recoup especially if they do not lay immediately after you give the injections. If the eggs are calcified, normal size and in position (in the right ducts etc) to lay, the tort will def lay with the oxytocin injection, if they arenot however, she won't lay 'em, but could have some side effects to the added hormones, especially dehydration. some good sites about dystocia (egg binding in reptiles)... lol just knowing that term (dystocia) when you go to the vet will have them take you as a serious tortoise keeper, but that's another story. 


http://www.tortoise.org/general/eggbind.html
and 
http://www.triciaswaterdragon.com/dystocia.htm


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## Tim/Robin (Feb 14, 2012)

If it were me, I would do it. If the vet has confirmed Xrays, the longer you wait the more calcified they will become. If you do inject her, you may lose them, if you don't you may lose her! I would do it with the Vet's direction. I know a keeper who always injects his Cherryheads and has done so for years. He has had no ill effects on the animals.


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