# planting grass in sulcata enclosure



## abbs (Jun 26, 2010)

is Smart Seed, Pennington seed , "Tall Fescue : premium grass seed blend" a good grass seed to plant in my baby sulcatas enclosure? i plan on planting it in about half or a little bit of it


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## Tropical Torts (Jun 26, 2010)

Are you ordering it off the internet or buying it at a department store?


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## abbs (Jun 26, 2010)

bought at department store. its still in the bag.


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## Seiryu (Jun 26, 2010)

abbs said:


> bought at department store. its still in the bag.



Just be warned. I have tried this myself and the grass ended up dying off a few months later. I had about a 3 inch deep tray (2x1.5ft). I'd recommend the soil being at least 5 inches deep if you don't want it dying off soon.

Plus a grow light over the enclosure.

Not sure about where you are, but most department store grass seeds aren't meant for consumption. Do you have a feed store nearby?


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## abbs (Jun 26, 2010)

so is alright if my tort eats it? i dont have a feed store nearby anwehere.. atleast not that i know of


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## Laura (Jun 26, 2010)

I bought pasture mix seed at my local Nursery.. There were several to choose from. I got the pasture mix with clover.. its where the sulcatas spend all day eating..

its sold loose in bulk containers by the pound...


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## abbs (Jun 26, 2010)

So my tort can eat it? it wont harm her or anything?


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## Seiryu (Jun 27, 2010)

abbs said:


> So my tort can eat it? it wont harm her or anything?



Not sure. Some stores do add things I don't think are a good thing and some don't. I'm not sure I would chance it myself, unless someone could tell you it does NOT have Endophytes.

I won't get too much into it. But when I first got my tortoise, I went to a local feed store. He talked to me about something called "endophytes", which they have been engineering some lawn seeds to have. They never leave the grass and are 100% NOT edible. 90% of his grass seed he had, had this stuff in it (chemically engineered basically), and only the "feed grass" was safe to use.

It's something new, at least around here he said and something to watch out for.

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/for1314

"Many grass seed crops contain an endophytic fungus (endophytes) that, in turn, increases the plants vigor, drought tolerance, resistance to predation (grazing), and ability to withstand other stresses. Plant species know to have endophytes in some varieties include tall fescue, fine fescue, hard fescue, perennial ryegrass, and bentgrass. *While endophytes often improve the viability of a specific plant or plant variety, they do produce alkaloids that, when consumed by livestock, can produce toxic responses.* The alkaloids produced by the endophytes are classified as ergopeptides with ergovaline generally being considered the peptide causing the toxicological problems."


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## Tom (Jun 27, 2010)

Seiryu said:


> abbs said:
> 
> 
> > So my tort can eat it? it wont harm her or anything?
> ...



WOW! Thanks Rob. I always thought if I grew something myself from seed it would be fine. I've never even heard of this. Does this stuff persist for very long. My yard grass was planted several years ago. Should I be worried about it? Is there some way to tell if you've got this stuff on your grass?


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## Seiryu (Jun 27, 2010)

Tom said:


> WOW! Thanks Rob. I always thought if I grew something myself from seed it would be fine. I've never even heard of this. Does this stuff persist for very long. My yard grass was planted several years ago. Should I be worried about it? Is there some way to tell if you've got this stuff on your grass?



I have no idea myself! I think it would be safe to assume, if you haven't had any issues yet, your lawn is safe (especially since it's been years).

As far as I know, the endophytes are there to stay, so if you have them on your grass, they are there long term.

It occurs naturally too, but is still un-safe for consumption. But what he said, was they were actually engineering some of the seeds (mainly for lawn use) to have this stuff to prevent bugs and other things from killing it off, a "super grass" if you will.


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## Tom (Jun 27, 2010)

Seiryu said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > WOW! Thanks Rob. I always thought if I grew something myself from seed it would be fine. I've never even heard of this. Does this stuff persist for very long. My yard grass was planted several years ago. Should I be worried about it? Is there some way to tell if you've got this stuff on your grass?
> ...



Whoa. This is not good news. I wonder how much of this stuff is in the grass hay that some of us buy at the feed stores. I'm going to search around a bit, but if anybody finds a way to tell if this stuff is present, please let the rest of us know. We need Madkins, the master researcher, to get in on this. I'll PM him.


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## Seiryu (Jun 27, 2010)

Tom said:


> Whoa. This is not good news. I wonder how much of this stuff is in the grass hay that some of us buy at the feed stores. I'm going to search around a bit, but if anybody finds a way to tell if this stuff is present, please let the rest of us know. We need Madkins, the master researcher, to get in on this. I'll PM him.



It is pretty scary yep. I brought this up before, but no one seemed to know anything about it back then. This was last year.


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## moswen (Jun 27, 2010)

i use this stuff: 

http://www.sulcatafood.com/

i planted a few pots when i first got my babies and the grass is still alive. i bought the 5 packets one and i still have half a bag left! also a great plus, it grows in about 3 days.


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## Laura (Jun 27, 2010)

Dang. my horse was just put down due to intestinal issues... makes me wonder if its in my pasture or was in his hay..


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## Madkins007 (Jun 27, 2010)

A challenge, eh? OK, so the questions are: does my grass have endophytes, and is it safe for my tortoise?

Does your grass have endophytes? Probably. The thing is that the word 'endophyte' really does not mean much more than a form of parasite, usually a bacteria or fungus. Many endophytes are harmless, some are helpful and even have medicinal uses, and some produce toxins. Cattle that graze on the stuff that produces the alkaloid toxins get the 'livestock staggers'.

Even if your seeds or sod were not intentionally infected with a specific kind of endophyte (the fungi _Acremonium coenophialum_ and _A. lolii _), they could easily be infected with something else.

This seems to be a decent introduction to the stuff: http://www.uri.edu/ce/factsheets/sheets/endophyte.html

How do you know if your yard is infected? If you have used any drought or pest resistant fescue or ryegrass seed in the last several years, it is probably infected. The stuff cannot infect bluegrass or bentgrass.

However, your yard may still be infected with naturally occurring endophytes.

Alkaloids and tortoises: In general, tortoises seem to be resistant to alkaloids- Galapagos, Red-foots, and Russians are just a few of the species known to eat plants considered toxic die to the alkaloid levels, and the toxin is the by-product of a fungus- many tortoises and box turtles are known to eat fungi that are toxic to humans.

That is not a strong yes or no, I know. Another bit of evidence is that they have been doing this endophyte thing for years, and there have been few reports of any mysterious illnesses that might be traced to turfgrasses. If it WAS dangerous, I think we would have more solid evidence of it by now.

Sorry, guys. I wish I had a solid answer for you, but my best guess would be that it is probably OK, especially if the turfgrass is a rather small portion of the overall diet. To put it another way, I feel safe putting my herd of Red-foots on my mostly fescue, and reseeded in the last few years, yard.


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## Tom (Jun 27, 2010)

Thanks Mark. Really appreciate it.


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## abbs (Jun 28, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> A challenge, eh? OK, so the questions are: does my grass have endophytes, and is it safe for my tortoise?
> 
> Does your grass have endophytes? Probably. The thing is that the word 'endophyte' really does not mean much more than a form of parasite, usually a bacteria or fungus. Many endophytes are harmless, some are helpful and even have medicinal uses, and some produce toxins. Cattle that graze on the stuff that produces the alkaloid toxins get the 'livestock staggers'.
> 
> ...



so your saying that its alright for my sulcata? or you think


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## abbs (Jul 15, 2010)

So are you saying that its okay if my Sulcata tortoise eats this?


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