# Please get a clue!!



## Livingstone (Sep 26, 2009)

I am writing this post because I'm tired of reading about everybodies "X" month old sulcata that has a soft shell and isn't eating. There is something wrong with being able to buy a baby animal that is at its most vulnerable when keepers are just starting to learn. Breeders should raise the price of these animals to prevent them from getting into the hands of people who dont have a clue about how to care for a reptile. It makes me sick that on some sites it even states the tortoises below a certain size dont have a guarantee for length of time they may or may not live, or that they are sold for scientific purposes... I can think of nothing scientific about dying from dehydration, poor diet, lack of proper lighting or proper care.

If you own a tortoise and intend to raise it from a baby then please for the sake of the animal get the correct setup, do your homework, and remember by the time you can tell a tortoise is sick... its probably too late. 

We've all read the posts in sulcata central... User has NEWB status and there first post is... My tortoise is sick. For those people, your first post should have been 5 months earlier when you were researching how best to care for the animal, not as its knocking on deaths door.

*It makes me sick to picture a tortoise the same size as mine, dying in a fake environment, under a humming flourescent light, gasping for breath with bubbles coming from its nose, as it waits for its internal organs to shut down. Please close your eyes and try to picture that, then look at your tortoise and think, what if it had gone to a home where the owner had no idea how to care for it?*

Dont let your tortoise be the poster child for your idiocy. These animals are the most difficult to care for when they are young. The younger they are the harder they are to raise and the more care they require.


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## egyptiandan (Sep 27, 2009)

Preaching a bit to the converted here.  All great points and it would be nice if people did research on how to care for an animal they purchased. Most do though go by what was told to them from the people they bought the tortoise from. Petshops, dealers and some breeders have never raised a hatchling tortoise and are giving advice to buyers who believe what they are told whole heartedly and with that advice don't think they need to "look" anything up. Most buyers see a cute tortoise and fall in love and have to have it. They aren't "into" tortoises, so aren't going to go beyond what was told to them about care.
The "For Scientific Purposes" and a few other exceptions are a business' way of getting around the "4 inch rule". Which states a business can't sell turtles or tortoises under 4 inches, except for 4 exceptions, scientific purposes, exhibition, education and export. Breeders can sell their hatchlings as long as they aren't a business. http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=1240.62
Most breeders don't sell directly to the public, so don't have much to say about raising prices. The wholesaler or dealer would dictate the price and none of them, like the breeder want to get "stuck" with any animals longer than they have to. That cuts into profits.
Now here's an idea to get the word out (just jumped into my head) which is pretty impossible from here  Getting in-touch with dealers and wholesalers and asking them to link us to their website and to recommend to the people that buy hatchlings to join the forum.  This would hopefully prevent the "I've got a sick hatchling" postings that we see all to often. 

Danny


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## Clementine_3 (Sep 27, 2009)

While I agree that a lot of research should be done well before any pet is brought home and that it's housing should be set up and perfect it just doesn't always work that way. When I got my tortoise I had to scramble to make a table and get proper supplies for him, I got him out of a bad situation and into a better one but perhaps a bit backwards (as far as being prepared). I also agree that breeders (of anything) and pet shops need to do a better job with education, not all are bad though, really can't use a broad brush for that.

What I cannot agree with is calling new owners out for coming here, or any other forum, looking for help! They may not have researched as much as they should have and may not have things set up right but they realize this and are reaching out for assistance. I truly don't see how anyone can fault them for that.
I keep a Greek tortoise, Leopard geckos and Carpet pythons. I researched their care requirements beforehand and knew what I was getting into but that does not mean I didn't (and still do) have a lot of questions about them. Had I visited a forum and read "_User has NEWB status and there first post is... My tortoise is sick. For those people, your first post should have been 5 months earlier when you were researching how best to care for the animal, not as its knocking on deaths door._" I'm not so sure I would want to ask for help!

This forum is here so new keepers can learn and provide the best possible care for their torts and turtles and so that more experienced keepers can continue to learn and grow. New keepers who have made mistakes should be made to feel welcome and free to ask any question they have, not chastised for being new and inexperienced.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 27, 2009)

My sister and I always complain to each other about the "new" hatchling keeper who writes in and worries about his baby's soft shell, or swollen eyes, or fill in the blank. Because we've been here a long time and have seen this over and over again, it does get a bit tiresome. But because we're here to help those folks, we can't let this irritation creep into our answers. We don't want to chase these people away, we want them to stay here and get help for their babies.

The new hatchling keeper who is writing here for the first time doesn't realize that his question has been asked numerous times before here on the forum, so we have to be patient and treat this person like this is the first time we've answered the question. 

The problem isn't the forum. The problem is the pet shop who doesn't give out the correct care. The breeder who doesn't make sure the buyer understands the proper care for the animal. And, yes, the new owner for not doing his research before he bought the baby.

We just do the best we can here on the forum, and hope we can reach them before the baby dies.

Yvonne


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## katesgoey (Sep 27, 2009)

I would also point out that no matter how much research is done, if a newbie has a vet that doesn't have a clue, their new tortoise could get sick and if they haven't found this forum, they wouldn't know not to follow the vet's instructions. There have been a lot of tortoises from newbies restored to better health because of the help provided on this forum. I personally do not understand the posts that jump all over people or come off judgmental when the posters come here for help. It does get tiresome reading the same type of posts when researching the threads would provide answers, but as Yvonne pointed out, the purpose of this forum is to help. I, for one, am very grateful for this forum and for all the newbie questions because it helps remind me what to consider and maybe look anew at my pens and enclosures and tortoises. It also reminds me how many more people have been educated by visiting this forum and learning proper tortoise care.


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## Madkins007 (Sep 27, 2009)

A few points...

1.) The 4 Inch Rule has a specific clause in it that prevents people using the 'well, its for display/scientific purposes in my house' excuse:
"Exceptions. The provisions of this section are not applicable to:
(1) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs for bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibitional purposes, other than use as pets." If the inspectors come and you are a PET store offering turtles, it is pretty clear they are being sold as PETS no matter what sort of waiver the store made you sign.

2.) Yeah, I get tired of people who have not done basic research as well. In some other sites, they can refer the asker to a series of posted articles. I sometimes wish we had something like that here. On the other hand, an awful lot of us here were in that newbie position once upon a time and were happy when someone patiently gave us the answers we needed. I just think of it as 'giving something back'.


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## Jacqui (Sep 27, 2009)

Sometimes, it is just easier and faster to directly make a post saying you need help then trying to figure out how to exactly work your way around a new site, each complete with their own ways to do things. I think even if we have to keep repeating oursleves, it's okay....and actually good for all of us. Why is it good for us?:

First off, we can zero in on exactly what is wrong with a certain tortoise and/or it's current setup. We can find tune it to what will work for that animal, that situation, and that owner. No two situations are exactly the same. For many issues, especially when dealing with tiny hatchlings, time is a huge factor in outcome.

For those still new to tortoises and reading those type posts, it keeps reminding them about the basics and perhaps cause them to tweak a bit more their own set ups. (Remember we retain very little we read only once. The more often and ways you read information, the better it is saved in your mind.) It gives these fairly new folks a chance to start sharing what they have recently learned with others who are even newer then themselves and gaining new confidence in theirselves.

For the ones who have been around for awhile, I think it helps keep us grounded, our minds fresher on basic needs (for both the tortoises and the care givers), and sometimes even we learn new things (or remember old ones we had forgotten).

Each of us can learn from each and every post. It may be about care, needs, what difficulties folks in other parts of the world face, may be it helps us learn how to better express our thoughts with each other, and it could only be that it causes you to think back to your own start or look over to your current critters and be thankful for where they (and you) are today.

Making somebody feel bad for what the have done or failed to do in the past is counterproductive. The past can't be changed. Guilt builds walls, blinds eyes, and closes ears to learning. Instead, just be glad they have chosen to come forward, to learn and try to correct what is wrong...hopefully before it's too late for the tortoise.

Yes, it would help a lot, if the breeders and sellers would give out better information. Each of us can help that situation by trying to be sure these folks have the correct information themselves. Look how many different opinions there are out there on how to keep these animals. How much even in this forum, we argue/discuss what works for us, what we believe is the correct way to care for these special creatures. Those of you new to tortoises probably have no idea how much the world of tortoise care has changed in the last 10-15 years. How much new knowledge is coming out everyday.

Make gentle suggestions to the seller/breeders/vets/zookeepers. By this I mean don't go in with guns blazing and taking no captives. Don't tell them (or imply) they are wrong, stupid, uncaring or anything negative. It just gets walls built up and no learning will happen. Instead offer thoughts, suggest maybe they might enjoy reading this or that care sheet or site. Like Danny says, suggest this site. Maybe even point out how it will work in their favor. Happy buyers will make return purchases, share the name of their breeder/seller to others, ect.., Remember they are human, plus they are running businesses.

The main thing is, YOU need to become proactive. Welcome and encourage new folks. Encourage and praise those who are taking the time to answer threads. A lot of good knowledgable folks get burned out and feel like they are accomplishing nothing and they slowly stop sharing. What a waste. Then go outside this group. Share your knowledge with the breeders, the sellers, the vets, the zookeepers, people shopping around you in the animal stores, heck the people you meet on the street.  Get involved with local groups and community gatherings. Hand out care sheets, places to go for more information, and mostly be their giving of yourself. Listen to their stories (and believe me they tell you great ones).

Complaining alone may make you feel better, but it doesn't last long and won't change anything. Becoming active, changing the world one tort at a time, will give you a power, a high that never leaves and a smile that comes from deep inside.


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## Livingstone (Sep 27, 2009)

My goal was not to discourage anybody from coming here to ask questions, just that would-be keepers should be here first before it becomes a life and death issue. 

If anything I would think that the forum should have a means for new owners to post questions without becoming members, so that we can reach out and give help. Since time is a critical issue when young animals are sick it would make sense to facilitate those in need with useful answers, and if such an area existed we would all know where to go to give the right advise. Something like that would set this forum apart from the rest. That is truly where I was trying to take this.

I do appreciate the criticism and I will avoid posting late at night after watching to much animal planet and nat geo. 

Thanks all.


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## Jacqui (Sep 27, 2009)

Livingstone said:


> My goal was not to discourage anybody from coming here to ask questions, just that would-be keepers should be here first before it becomes a life and death issue.
> 
> If anything I would think that the forum should have a means for new owners to post questions without becoming members, so that we can reach out and give help. Since time is a critical issue when young animals are sick it would make sense to facilitate those in need with useful answers, and if such an area existed we would all know where to go to give the right advise. Something like that would set this forum apart from the rest. That is truly where I was trying to take this.
> 
> ...



No don't stop! I am sorry, if you felt we were all coming down on you. You made some valid points and best of all, you got us all thinking and reacting. Thank you! 

Question for you, since your fairly new...well newer then me any how.  I can't recall signing up for this site. Was it long? Asked a lot of questions? Did you have to wait to get approved? What was your experience?

My memory says it was fast and simple for me. I think by having the person have to join, it shows perhaps they are more likely to listen to our advice? To sincerely want it? Also it keeps out a few of the unwanted folks who create threads or post just for the sake of getting folks stirred up. Sorta a very low level security thing.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 27, 2009)

Livingstone said:



> I do appreciate the criticism and I will avoid posting late at night after watching to much animal planet and nat geo.
> 
> Thanks all.



Since you posted this topic in "debatable topics," that means you have to expect opinions on both sides of the subject. Please don't feel that any of the posts here are aimed directly at you. We are talking about the subject, not you or the way you posted. We are not criticizing YOU, but merely the subject of the post.

And I know what you mean about TV. Gets me all hyped up too!



Yvonne


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## egyptiandan (Sep 27, 2009)

That was me Yvonne  this morning  It was originally in General Tortoise Discussion. I thought it would be better here. 
I also had to clean it up a bit. 

Danny


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## Livingstone (Sep 27, 2009)

Jacqui said:


> Livingstone said:
> 
> 
> > My goal was not to discourage anybody from coming here to ask questions, just that would-be keepers should be here first before it becomes a life and death issue.
> ...



The signup process is not overly complicated nor is it very lengthy, however when you are faced with a sick animal most people are looking for the fastest answer, not a sign up process. This I believe probably discourages more people than it helps. Anybody with a sick animal is going to listen to advise and by using sign up as a security device we are taking the easy way out. I do not doubt that there are people posting just to antagonize, but it seems fairly small minded of us to limit help to others for that reason. I dont think we should be thinking that one bad apple spoils the bunch in this case. We are making somebody who is desperate for advise jump through hoops to get it. Essentially we are puting the cart before the horse. If we are truly trying to help?

I am not advicating that the whole forum be open to everybody, just that we make an area limited to those who need help, one area that they can ask questions in and get answers... This would make it easier for mods to BAN and DELETE useless and antagonzing posts.

Let me also reiterate that this is a fantastic learning tool and community, what we write about and discuss here is the cutting edge of husbandry practice and sharing that knowledge only benefits these great animals if not the people that own them.

Thanks.
Rob


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## terryo (Sep 27, 2009)

For me doing too much research just led to frustration. I researched for almost a year before I decided on a Cherry Head (redfoot). All the research and sites I went into told me the same thing...... No aquarium tanks...plastic tubs..or tables. Some sites said UVB...some said no UVB. Some gave a list of toxic plants...other lists had the same plants as non toxic. Most breeders I got in contact with were very kind and helpful.....others had no patience for new tortoise owners. Each breeder I spoke to had a different opinion on how to raise a hatchling. Some breeders actually spoke bad about the other breeders. No one agreed on anything. So when I got my first (and only) tortoise I was so confused and frustrated. It took a very long time and a lot of worrying, and some sleepless nights, to finally get it right. All the research, with such conflicting advice only caused me to get upset and try different things on my own until I got it right. So what is a new tortoise owner supposed to do with all this conflicting advice on the net?


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## dmmj (Sep 27, 2009)

After reading the OP I can say that if I was a new member or someone not use to forums I would probably be scared away. I would like to think that people can post questions on here and not be afraid. That being said I can see how seeing the same question over and over again can be a little disturbing. But myself I would rather answer the same question 1000 times and help save a turtle ot tortoises life then never see a question and see some poor little guy die. Just my 2 cents.


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## Livingstone (Sep 28, 2009)

terryo said:


> For me doing too much research just led to frustration. I researched for almost a year before I decided on a Cherry Head (redfoot). All the research and sites I went into told me the same thing...... No aquarium tanks...plastic tubs..or tables. Some sites said UVB...some said no UVB. Some gave a list of toxic plants...other lists had the same plants as non toxic. Most breeders I got in contact with were very kind and helpful.....others had no patience for new tortoise owners. Each breeder I spoke to had a different opinion on how to raise a hatchling. Some breeders actually spoke bad about the other breeders. No one agreed on anything. So when I got my first (and only) tortoise I was so confused and frustrated. It took a very long time and a lot of worrying, and some sleepless nights, to finally get it right. All the research, with such conflicting advice only caused me to get upset and try different things on my own until I got it right. So what is a new tortoise owner supposed to do with all this conflicting advice on the net?



First I need to ask you, where you a member on this site when you were going throught the trials of trying to fine tune your husbandry? If not, why not? Do you think that in that time of need if you could have posted in an open forum to get an answer you would have, rather than speculate about whether you were doing the right thing?

Husbandry is an ongoing practice, things like using rabbit pellets as substrate which was considered the norm a couple years ago is now a big nono. Thats why the net and search engines are not good sources, mostly due to the fact that the information is or can be fairly dated, most sites dont have a publication date or are an amalgamation of information with no citing for where or who published the text. This is why forums are the cutting edge because of knowledge sharing, forums also have a time line so if you search for an answer you can determine based on the date of the post whether or not this is the most up to date practice. Not to mention the fact that this is real time, owners/keepers can go from theory to practice to publish and share within days. Something like that would take months in any other form of media.

But my point was to speed up the process of getting answers to those who need them. If everybody knew how to post and research then this would probably be unnecessary. However my theory about creating a section that allows *non* members to get pertinent questions answered in an expedited manner will remain just that, a theory. Having a debate about whether something will be effective without trying it, is like trying to teach a pig to speak english. It cant be done and just irritates the pig.


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## terryo (Sep 28, 2009)

Livingstone said:


> terryo said:
> 
> 
> > For me doing too much research just led to frustration. I researched for almost a year before I decided on a Cherry Head (redfoot). All the research and sites I went into told me the same thing...... No aquarium tanks...plastic tubs..or tables. Some sites said UVB...some said no UVB. Some gave a list of toxic plants...other lists had the same plants as non toxic. Most breeders I got in contact with were very kind and helpful.....others had no patience for new tortoise owners. Each breeder I spoke to had a different opinion on how to raise a hatchling. Some breeders actually spoke bad about the other breeders. No one agreed on anything. So when I got my first (and only) tortoise I was so confused and frustrated. It took a very long time and a lot of worrying, and some sleepless nights, to finally get it right. All the research, with such conflicting advice only caused me to get upset and try different things on my own until I got it right. So what is a new tortoise owner supposed to do with all this conflicting advice on the net?
> ...



I joined this forum August 25, 2007 and I got my cherry head Oct 5th 2005....according to my records. This was not the only site I did any research. and I certainly did not speculate about whether I was doing the right thing.I belong to other forums too. I asked many questions on different forums and got different answers. Like I said I did a lot of research....I still do. I also asked different breeders and people with experience on husbandry for redfoots. If you go to other forums you will see very different advice on lighting...etc. As I said I don't know anything about other tortoises. I also wrote how confused I was with all the different advice I was getting, especially on lighting. Finally, I incorporated advice I got from different breeders and two years later I am still learning..... I do mostly follow the caresheets on Redfoots.com. This was probably the last forum I found to join. I think it was fairly new at the time I joined.


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## reptylefreek (Sep 28, 2009)

I do like the idea of having a little OPEN section for non members. But I dont understand why signing up would be a problem. You can veiw almost everything on the sight without being a member. Just not pix I thought. And we can encourage these people to hang around and sign up so we can give more info more frequently. I had a friend just recently tell me she wants to convince her husband to let her get a tortoise. I immediatly gave her this site and told her to read read read. She was asking what my tort Marlin was who is a sully. I kinda freaked out cuz she has two kids and I dont really agree on how she raises them and she doesn't really take the time out for the little things with them. I know how much work any tort is so I told her maybe she should start out with a smaller species. I also told her she has choices like a rescue, but she WANTS A BABY. Thats the part that makes me mad. The animal that is just a PHASE for people who cant have anymore kids. If you do it for the right reasons thats fine but I know she goes through phases. And because of an unfortunate financial situation I'm pretty sure their gonna be stuck in an apt for a very long time. Fine but not with a sully or leo or dessert.... I'm worried so I'm gonna do MY PART to make sure if she gets one that she has ALL the info she possibly can and help her so hers doesn't turn into a rescue, because I'm tapped out right now. I cant end up with another friends animal. Not until I get more space, and my boyfriend starts working again. I think we should also try to get some free advertising and tell pet stores about us and see if they can name drop when a turt or tort goes out the door so when someone joins its not just because of a life or death situation. Some of us have friends at pet stores. But thank god for all you guys, I really needed this site and it came along at a perfect time thanks to word of mouth by PEPPER.


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## Crazy1 (Sep 28, 2009)

We are considered a fairly young forum. We were 2 years old August of this year. So considering how many we have helped I think we have done a pretty good job for a young forum.

Though I think having an open thread, so non members can post is not a bad idea, what is to keep that guest from continuing to ask their questions without registering ever? There are reasons for a person to register, though I do not know all the logistics of the site. Livingstone I will post this question to the development team and administrator. 

I agree we all have had moments when we tire of the same questions being asked. But I also know when someone post their tort is ill they are usually desperate and at wits end. When I find myself tired of those repeated questions I think back to when I began, and wish that help would have been at the tip of my fingers then. I know I would have done better and may not have lost a few. 

I look at this forum as a place to help other keepers, old and new and to help my own torts with new ideas and information I get from other keepers. I also feel this is a place for like minded people. Those that don't think I'm crazy for feeling like I do about my torts. Those who understand that you can see personalities and have deep rooted feelings for a tort the same way you can for any other pet be it dog, cat etc. It gives me a place to talk about my torts & get feedback (and that doesn't mean always positive) and to listen to others about theirs. I feel of this forum and many of its members as if it is an extended part of my family. A community I am a part of. I would hope that each of us feels at least part of a community when on our forum.

Rob I have posted your suggestion for an open part of the forum for guests to ask questions.


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## Sudhira (Sep 28, 2009)

Pepper said:


> Some people don't even know these forums exsist. I ran accross them on accident. I would have never thought about there being forums for animals or reptiles. I like to research though. When I did run accross some forums I wasn't sure about joining one and didn't know which one to join- I just didn't know much about furums in general... I am now on about 8 or so forums and thats how I found which ones had the most people and best advice.
> And I agree about the 1000 questions, it's better to keep trying to help where we can



What I got from the initial post, was not that "Livingstone" was against Newbie's posting, but that the whole idea of people acquiring/purshasing tortoise/turtles without knowing how to keep them, and how to keep them healthy. 

In no way do I intend to insult any one else's philosophy, but it is MY practice and philosophy that if I cannot properly meet the needs of a "pet" that I acquire by providing the best environment and healthcare, then I should probably not acquire that living thing. Vet care IS expensive, and if one cannot afford vet care, then they might want to re-think stewarding a pet, especially and exotic one.

Please, these are just my thoughts and feelings on the subject.

I am grateful for the information shared on this forum. There are many ideas from which to glean information .


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## -EJ (Sep 28, 2009)

This is why herpers do not get involved with 'passionate' tortoise keepers. 

I'm curious... how old are you... and how did you get started in this hobby.

(Danny... I wonder about you on a regular basis.)

Oh... to the OP... people don't respond well to a condescending approach.

...Wait a second... did you recently post on RFUK?



Livingstone said:


> I am writing this post because I'm tired of reading about everybodies "X" month old sulcata that has a soft shell and isn't eating. There is something wrong with being able to buy a baby animal that is at its most vulnerable when keepers are just starting to learn. Breeders should raise the price of these animals to prevent them from getting into the hands of people who dont have a clue about how to care for a reptile. It makes me sick that on some sites it even states the tortoises below a certain size dont have a guarantee for length of time they may or may not live, or that they are sold for scientific purposes... I can think of nothing scientific about dying from dehydration, poor diet, lack of proper lighting or proper care.
> 
> If you own a tortoise and intend to raise it from a baby then please for the sake of the animal get the correct setup, do your homework, and remember by the time you can tell a tortoise is sick... its probably too late.
> 
> ...


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## Livingstone (Sep 28, 2009)

Sudhira said:


> In no way do I intend to insult any one else's philosophy, but it is MY practice and philosophy that if I cannot properly meet the needs of a "pet" that I acquire by providing the best environment and healthcare, then I should probably not acquire that living thing. Vet care IS expensive, and if one cannot afford vet care, then they might want to re-think stewarding a pet, especially and exotic one.
> 
> Please, these are just my thoughts and feelings on the subject.
> 
> I am grateful for the information shared on this forum. There are many ideas from which to glean information .



What you have there is uncommon sense, pass that on if you can. .

In all seriousness, you would hope that your logic is something all people share, unfortunately its not, hence the 1000's of similar posts scattered about the forum. 

I totally agree with your philosophy but we need to help the torts who's owners didn't know as much as they thought they did.


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## -EJ (Sep 28, 2009)

Your reasoning is kind of ignorant considering most keepers are attracted to the animal at a shop or show and the response is impulsive.



Livingstone said:


> Sudhira said:
> 
> 
> > In no way do I intend to insult any one else's philosophy, but it is MY practice and philosophy that if I cannot properly meet the needs of a "pet" that I acquire by providing the best environment and healthcare, then I should probably not acquire that living thing. Vet care IS expensive, and if one cannot afford vet care, then they might want to re-think stewarding a pet, especially and exotic one.
> ...


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## terryo (Sep 28, 2009)

Livingstone said:


> I am writing this post because I'm tired of reading about everybodies "X" month old sulcata that has a soft shell and isn't eating. There is something wrong with being able to buy a baby animal that is at its most vulnerable when keepers are just starting to learn. Breeders should raise the price of these animals to prevent them from getting into the hands of people who dont have a clue about how to care for a reptile. It makes me sick that on some sites it even states the tortoises below a certain size dont have a guarantee for length of time they may or may not live, or that they are sold for scientific purposes... I can think of nothing scientific about dying from dehydration, poor diet, lack of proper lighting or proper care.
> 
> If you own a tortoise and intend to raise it from a baby then please for the sake of the animal get the correct setup, do your homework, and remember by the time you can tell a tortoise is sick... its probably too late.
> 
> ...



In the past two or more years of reading posts on different forums, I can see that there are many people who do research and do all the proper things for their tortoise hatchlings and they still get sick....could be they were sick when they got them, and as we all know they don't usually show signs of illness until it's almost too late. Then the person comes on the forums (any forums) asking for help. What is wrong with that? Most are willing to take their tortoise to vets and to do all the right things to get them better. Everyone has to start out somewhere. EVERYONE was once a "newbe"....I hate that word. So I still don't understand why they would be criticized, if they only want the best for their pet. In fact, I really don't understand this whole thread. Most people do research...or they wouldn't be on forums asking questions....


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## CGKeith (Sep 28, 2009)

What is needed is more "sticky" threads or a FAQ section.

The questions that do get asked over and over could be addressed and put at the top of the appropriate section. Or a section of care sheets that would cover a good amount of basic info.

That could benefit the casual visitor as well.


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## -EJ (Sep 28, 2009)

Yea... a sticky would work but that would lead to a sticky section of the forum.

The deal with the 'same old questions' being asked is that there are always new ideas and developments that pop up in those same old questions.

As to the OP... can you say troll.



CGKeith said:


> What is needed is more "sticky" threads or a FAQ section.
> 
> The questions that do get asked over and over could be addressed and put at the top of the appropriate section. Or a section of care sheets that would cover a good amount of basic info.
> 
> That could benefit the casual visitor as well.


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## Livingstone (Sep 28, 2009)

CGKeith said:


> What is needed is more "sticky" threads or a FAQ section.
> 
> The questions that do get asked over and over could be addressed and put at the top of the appropriate section. Or a section of care sheets that would cover a good amount of basic info.
> 
> That could benefit the casual visitor as well.



You are missing the point of constant feedback, how many times have you read something in a FAQ that has superceded to a more effective or efficient way of doing something. I work in the auto industry and constantly see revisions and updates of the same principle. If you create a FAQ section you foster the status quo and you will be facilitating the spread of what will become dated information.


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## egyptiandan (Sep 28, 2009)

Keep wondering Ed  I like it that way 

Danny


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## Livingstone (Sep 28, 2009)

-EJ said:


> Yea... a sticky would work but that would lead to a sticky section of the forum.
> 
> The deal with the 'same old questions' being asked is that there are always new ideas and developments that pop up in those same old questions.
> 
> As to the OP... can you say troll.



I appreciate your opinion, but it seems then that we share the same philosophy as far as information goes.

And yah if you want to waive the troll card go ahead,
new ideas are generally greeted with skepticism and resistance from the vanguard.


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## Madkins007 (Sep 28, 2009)

I understand that FAQs can become 'old and dead', if they are not maintained. One thing I think that could really help keepers in general is a set of FAQs that routinely get challenged and tweaked- peer-reviewed as it were.

I think that such a process can also help with the 'opinion' vs. 'traditional' vs. 'based on lots of experience' vs. 'research-driven' aspects we see on so many debatable topics- soaking springs to mind.


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## Livingstone (Sep 28, 2009)

I believe that is exactly what a post is, an informal version of peer review.


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## katesgoey (Sep 28, 2009)

I've read through all of this thread again....and I just don't get the OP point. One doesn't have to be a member to read these posts. I learned alot from this forum before I decided to join. I think if someone wants to post, they should be a member - we all had to do it and I just don't see what the problem is about requiring it. I get it that the OP is ticked off that some people buy tortoises before researching or some breeders sell them without providing the "right" info, but you just can't control everything and everyone in life, so we do the best we can...and forums like this are part of providing education. If you want to change how tortoises are purchased - that would have to be done outside of this forum anyway. Use this forum to start your campaign for change if you want, but why should the forum have to change its policy on posters? Besides, caretaking has changed over the years so who knows what we'll all learn down the road about issues in how we are keeping our tortoises today. Another besides, is the OP has changed points as the "debate" ensues so I just don't see the point. That's my 2 cents plus 2 cents more opinion anyway.


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## terryo (Sep 28, 2009)

Sandy....I totally agree....great post!


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## Livingstone (Sep 28, 2009)

Livingstone said:


> My goal was not to discourage anybody from coming here to ask questions, just that would-be keepers should be here first before it becomes a life and death issue.
> 
> If anything I would think that the forum should have a means for new owners to post questions without becoming members, so that we can reach out and give help. Since time is a critical issue when young animals are sick it would make sense to facilitate those in need with useful answers, and if such an area existed we would all know where to go to give the right advise. Something like that would set this forum apart from the rest. That is truly where I was trying to take this.


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## CGKeith (Sep 28, 2009)

-EJ said:


> Yea... a sticky would work but that would lead to a sticky section of the forum.
> 
> The deal with the 'same old questions' being asked is that there are always new ideas and developments that pop up in those same old questions.
> 
> ...



Great, name calling. That will help get more new people to ask questions. 

It is exactly that type of attitude that keeps me from asking questions, and I've been here a while.

Sure, there are lots of ideas about what works and what doesn't. And yes, we learn more all the time how to make better choices.

At least being able to get basic care information (without being belittled or being called names) might be what keeps an animal from dying.


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## katesgoey (Sep 28, 2009)

Livingstone said:


> Livingstone said:
> 
> 
> > My goal was not to discourage anybody from coming here to ask questions, just that would-be keepers should be here first before it becomes a life and death issue.
> ...


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## -EJ (Sep 28, 2009)

I'm wondering if you are directing this at me... i'm thinking not.

I'm totally amazed at the acceptance of the OP. Either I'm misunderstanding his post or everyone else is.

My reference to 'troll' is that this post bares a striking resembalance to another post on a UK forum... which was definately trolling.

Stop and consider... the OP is belittling all those that have obtained a tortoise and are seeking a quick fix.

Please don't tell me that this list has turned into the same as the majority of the others.




CGKeith said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> > Yea... a sticky would work but that would lead to a sticky section of the forum.
> ...


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 28, 2009)

I personally think that rather then make joining and asking questions easier for the newbie, laws need to make it harder to buy a tortoise. Stop the impulse buy totally and make the whole process of buying a turtle or a tortoise harder...


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## -EJ (Sep 28, 2009)

I'm not going to post my initial response... I would actually find it repuslive...

You're going to tell me the keeping of your first tortoise was well thought out and well prepared for...

I can't believe the thought line of this thread. Whoa...Tell me AH has not acquired this list... nahhh... couldn't be... I'd of been banned a long time ago.

Seriously... does anyone else see anything wrong with the OPs post... and more disturbing... the follow ups???????



maggie3fan said:


> I personally think that rather then make joining and asking questions easier for the newbie, laws need to make it harder to buy a tortoise. Stop the impulse buy totally and make the whole process of buying a turtle or a tortoise harder...


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## terryo (Sep 28, 2009)

I think it started out that the OP was criticizing people for buying tortoises without doing research. I can understand that. What happened after that is confusing....NO AH is NOT here...This is a GREAT forun IMHO.


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## -EJ (Sep 28, 2009)

The OP is trolling... nothing more. What is the value of his rant to any forum... apparently... a great deal considering the positive response... that is seriously sad.

I don't often do this...

This might be a good forum but that is one seriously stupid post for many reasons.

Note that the OP has not responded... about 3 or 4 am... there'll be a response. 



terryo said:


> I think it started out that the OP was criticizing people for buying tortoises without doing research. I can understand that. What happened after that is confusing....NO AH is NOT here...This is a GREAT forun IMHO.


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## Stazz (Sep 28, 2009)

Well Nick and I are a pure example of what can happen - we went to the pet store looking for dogs, and never found one, and ended up coming home with Tallula the same day. First thing I did was go to google and research, research, research....there are so many contradicting things on the net! I then came across another forum, where someone recommended to this one pretty soon after I joined - Ive learned so so soooo much on here to benefit Tallula's life for the better. It was indeed purely impulsive but You cannot complain about newbies as you were once one too were you not. You get the people who will research alot before they buy the tort, and then you get someone like me, who just could not walk away from the tort in the pet store. 

Apart from all that debate.....I agree on getting a FAQ sticky, possibly in Introductions, of all the typcial newbie questions, of which I once asked and am still asking 8 months later!  Smiles!


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## Yvonne G (Sep 29, 2009)

-EJ said:


> The OP is trolling... nothing more. What is the value of his rant to any forum... apparently... a great deal considering the positive response... that is seriously sad.



I guess I'm missing the point. What exactly do you mean by "trolling?" This post has been placed in debatable topics. If we post here doesn't that mean we would be trolling for different opinions on the subject? So unless I'm not interpreting trolling correctly, what's wrong with trolling in debatable topics?

As to the value of the rant...I often feel the same way as the OP on this subject. Same old questions...same poor little sick tortoise...it does tend to wear you down after a while. But we just continue to muddle through and do the best we can.

Yvonne


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## -EJ (Sep 29, 2009)

I guess you're right.

My take on this 'debate' is that the OP is ignorant to the fact that the majority of the tortoise keepers obtain most of their tortoises on impulse... you and I included.

I think the OP really needs to get a clue.



emysemys said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> > The OP is trolling... nothing more. What is the value of his rant to any forum... apparently... a great deal considering the positive response... that is seriously sad.
> ...


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## Clementine_3 (Sep 29, 2009)

Yes, this is classic trolling. A post was made simply to stir up the forum members. It is one thing to say "I'm getting tired of people not doing their research" but quite another to initially imply that folks should be made to feel bad about asking for help. That really, IMO, was the purpose of this post...to belittle new members who come here looking for assistance. Nowhere was it originally mentioned that a new area be created with or without stickies or that someone should not have to be a member (which I truly don't understand anyway) to fully utilize the forum. The post was made to rile the masses, nothing more.

The OP has changed his mind numerous times and backtracked more times than I can count. I frankly can't even follow the gist of this anymore, mainly because I don't think there is one. Some good points were raised, there was good discussion but that was merely a byproduct, not the original intent.

I'm not saying this type of thread should be locked or removed or not allowed, just pointing out that it does indeed seem to be very, very troll-like in every way 

And yes, (s)he does need to get a clue!


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## -EJ (Sep 29, 2009)

Thank you... person with a clue.

This response negates all the others as far as I'm concerned.





Clementine_3 said:


> Yes, this is classic trolling. A post was made simply to stir up the forum members. It is one thing to say "I'm getting tired of people not doing their research" but quite another to initially imply that folks should be made to feel bad about asking for help. That really, IMO, was the purpose of this post...to belittle new members who come here looking for assistance. Nowhere was it originally mentioned that a new area be created with or without stickies or that someone should not have to be a member (which I truly don't understand anyway) to fully utilize the forum. The post was made to rile the masses, nothing more.
> 
> The OP has changed his mind numerous times and backtracked more times than I can count. I frankly can't even follow the gist of this anymore, mainly because I don't think there is one. Some good points were raised, there was good discussion but that was merely a byproduct, not the original intent.
> 
> ...


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## Livingstone (Sep 29, 2009)

Again, I appreciate the criticism. This thread has evolved from me ranting, to the forum finding a solution. I do agree that my original post was over the top, however, if nobody ever complained then change would never happen. Whether we change or not, the intent of my original post was to find a way to change how we answer critical and time sensitive questions. This was not supposed to be an opportunity to pick sides, this is not third grade dodgeball.



maggie3fan said:


> I personally think that rather then make joining and asking questions easier for the newbie, laws need to make it harder to buy a tortoise. Stop the impulse buy totally and make the whole process of buying a turtle or a tortoise harder...



In most countries it is much harder, this is one of the laxest in terms of owning what are considered wild animals. Until the law makers catch up the best thing to do is make the answers more accessable.

I do agree whole heartedly that if everybody that owned an exotic animal had to have a permit, we would probably have alot more responsible owners... or just fewer.


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## -EJ (Sep 29, 2009)

Your original post was pointless because it was directed a folks who never hit the forums. They don't get to this level until they have the animal... think about it.

It's not a third grade dodgeball... it's the seeking of attention.
Your point is good but your delivery... totally sucks... but I suspect that was the intent.



Livingstone said:


> Again, I appreciate the criticism. This thread has evolved from me ranting, to the forum finding a solution. I do agree that my original post was over the top, however, if nobody ever complained then change would never happen. Whether we change or not, the intent of my original post was to find a way to change how we answer critical and time sensitive questions. This was not supposed to be an opportunity to pick sides, this is not third grade dodgeball.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Livingstone (Sep 29, 2009)

katesgoey said:


> I'm sorry, but unless one of us is a vet, we shouldn't be going that far....the best advice for someone with a sick tortoise where time is of the essence like that is that they get themselves and the tortoise to a vet ASAP. Maggie is working on a vet list which will then be accessible publicly, so that should take care of that concern. In the meantime, the "viewer" can already read up on the "latest" proper care techniques on the forum.



Does everybody that owns a tortoise have access to a vet? Some vets would probably do more harm than good due to the fact that they dont specialize in reptiles. Some owners cant afford a vet bill? Some torts cant be taken to a vet due to size. 

A vet list is a very good thing to have and I am sincerely grateful that Maggie is putting in the time to compile a list. 

There are cases you have to consider though... Vets are expensive, with the current economic situation, if a person had to choose between putting food on the table and saving the family tort, unfortunately the tort is going to loose.

These are hard realities to face, but by removing as many roadblocks to answers as possible, we will be doing the right thing for the animal even if the owner isn't able too.


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## -EJ (Sep 29, 2009)

Simple point...

You've not responded to any of my posts... why?

(you don't have to answer... I know)



Livingstone said:


> katesgoey said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sorry, but unless one of us is a vet, we shouldn't be going that far....the best advice for someone with a sick tortoise where time is of the essence like that is that they get themselves and the tortoise to a vet ASAP. Maggie is working on a vet list which will then be accessible publicly, so that should take care of that concern. In the meantime, the "viewer" can already read up on the "latest" proper care techniques on the forum.
> ...


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## terryo (Sep 29, 2009)

-EJ said:


> Simple point...
> 
> You've not responded to any of my posts... why?
> 
> ...



I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone.........give up Ed.


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## Livingstone (Sep 29, 2009)

-EJ said:


> Your original post was pointless because it was directed a folks who never hit the forums. They don't get to this level until they have the animal... think about it.



I have already accepted responsability for the OP, and again I apologize if it got readers upset/pissed off etc. 

And I understand that the people that write the posts about the sick and dying animals dont do any or little prior research to buying the animal. That is obviously why they post so franticly for answers, the goal is to have a section where these people can post these questions immediately and recieve accurate information since they couldn't take the time to get it right before hand.


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## katesgoey (Sep 29, 2009)

Livingstone said:


> katesgoey said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sorry, but unless one of us is a vet, we shouldn't be going that far....the best advice for someone with a sick tortoise where time is of the essence like that is that they get themselves and the tortoise to a vet ASAP. Maggie is working on a vet list which will then be accessible publicly, so that should take care of that concern. In the meantime, the "viewer" can already read up on the "latest" proper care techniques on the forum.
> ...



It's okay for them to purchase if they don't have access to a vet?? Now you've gone way beyond your original OP in saying that its okay for an impulsive buyer or newbie who has a sick tortoise not to have a vet as part of their purchase plan?? I thought you wanted newbies to research and know what they were doing before purchasing? You are even implying that a vet isn't necessary if you have this forum because you would know better how to treat a tortoise online than some vets? You have no clue whether or not you'd be doing the right thing for the newbie or tortoise since you could never be sure if the description of illness was accurate, nor would you really know the situation. And you think newbies who don't research enough are being irresponsible?


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## -EJ (Sep 29, 2009)

You didn't answer one of my questions... did you research the keepining of your chelonian before you obtained it?

Another question... do you have OCD?



Livingstone said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> > Your original post was pointless because it was directed a folks who never hit the forums. They don't get to this level until they have the animal... think about it.
> ...


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## Livingstone (Sep 29, 2009)

katesgoey said:


> It's okay for them to purchase if they don't have access to a vet?? Now you've gone way beyond your original OP in saying that its okay for an impulsive buyer or newbie who has a sick tortoise not to have a vet as part of their purchase plan?? I thought you wanted newbies to research and know what they were doing before purchasing? You are even implying that a vet isn't necessary if you have this forum because you would know better how to treat a tortoise online than some vets? You have no clue whether or not you'd be doing the right thing for the newbie or tortoise since you could never be sure if the description of illness was accurate, nor would you really know the situation. And you think newbies who don't research enough are being irresponsible?



There are factors that we can change and there are ones that we can't.
The responsability of owning an animal falls on that person, nobody can stop someone from buying a tortoise. We also cannot control whether or not they do research before hand. 

What we can control is the timeliness of the answer and the ease of posting, regardless of what is being inferred by the original post.


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## Clementine_3 (Sep 29, 2009)

Livingstone said:


> That is obviously why they post so franticly for answers, the goal is to have a section where these people can post these questions immediately and recieve accurate information since they couldn't take the time to get it right before hand.
> 
> There are factors that we can change and there are ones that we can't.
> The responsability of owning an animal falls on that person, nobody can stop someone from buying a tortoise. We also cannot control whether or not they do research before hand.
> ...


And this is where I lose you (well, OK, I've totally lost the whole point, but...), it takes mere moments to register and get a confirmatory email and finalize enrollment. Another few minutes to create a post. If the situation is so dire that 10 minutes is going to make a difference it's beyond a little too late. No matter how quickly a post is made it can still be days before someone answers, how would you propose that be fixed? Paid staff sitting at the keyboard 24/7? Even a "special newb section" would be pointless as many, many issues are species specific. So, you would have to have a duplicate forum index for just newbs really.
Yet you go on to say that no one can control who buys, researches or provides vet care and then somehow imply if they got posting privileges faster and quicker answers all would be solved?
I'm sorry but I truly, honestly don't have a clue what you are talking about from post to post!


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## -EJ (Sep 29, 2009)

read your own post.

Do you have a concept of how controling your post reads?????

What's interesting is that you've sparked an idea.



Livingstone said:


> katesgoey said:
> 
> 
> > It's okay for them to purchase if they don't have access to a vet?? Now you've gone way beyond your original OP in saying that its okay for an impulsive buyer or newbie who has a sick tortoise not to have a vet as part of their purchase plan?? I thought you wanted newbies to research and know what they were doing before purchasing? You are even implying that a vet isn't necessary if you have this forum because you would know better how to treat a tortoise online than some vets? You have no clue whether or not you'd be doing the right thing for the newbie or tortoise since you could never be sure if the description of illness was accurate, nor would you really know the situation. And you think newbies who don't research enough are being irresponsible?
> ...


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## Crazy1 (Sep 29, 2009)

OK I was going to stay out of this but here I am with my fingers flying on the keyboard. I have to say that an open section for non members to post important or critical questions will more than likely not happen. My Opinion. There is no way to regulate how many times a person who is not a member would post and about what. Most people now post questions with titles that donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t let anyone know they or their tort is in crisis. And if they do it does not contain complete information.

Guidelines clearly state; Ã¢â‚¬Å“a post titled 'please help' tells others nothing about your question. Try to be specific, like: 'Diet help for Russian tortoise hatchling.'Ã¢â‚¬Â 

Though if in crisis mode they may not take the time to read the guidelines. But letÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s be perfectly honest. Most people who post that their tort is sick, or not eating for weeks, or too weak to lift itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s head, or hasnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t moved in days, more than likely would not have taken the time to read the guidelines anyway or look at a FAQ list (which is hard to keep up to date). They ask the question because they want someone to spoon feed them the answer. They want it NOW. They are hoping we, anyone can make a miracle happen and make their tort all better. Unfortunately it usually doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t work that way. First we are not miracle workers. Most of us have learned by trial and error, success and loss. Most of those who post a first time question in crisis, get the pat answer to take it to a vet. We are not vets nor would a reputable vet (not any I know) make a diagnosis over the internet without ever seeing the animal. Let alone with some of the incomplete questions that people post. 
Even some of those that post often do not take advice that they are given. Though it is their prerogative. Some have even tried to argue a point. 

Yes there is a responsiblity when you buy or own a pet/animal. As an animal owner if you can no longer care for that animal then it is your responsiblity to find a rehab faciities, rescue, etc that can take care of it. That is the responsible thing to do.

We keep getting the kind of questions we do because often torts are an impulse buy especially hatchlings, which are the hardest of torts to deal with. Whether incomplete or bad care sheets are given, or none at all. Even if the hatchling is set up correctly there is no guarantee that a hatchling will thrive. We will not solve the problem by opening up a open forum for anyone to post anything. Heck we wonÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t solve the problem here at all. 

So for now I think we are doing a Stellar job at what we are and what we do. A forum, a community of tort keepers that want to better understand how and practice keeping tortoises as best as they can be kept in captivity. And help educate those that want to be educated and learn as much as we can ourselves. 

As a member I too get weary of repeating myself and others comments about care, diet etc. but that is what this forum is about. Helping and educating. Kind of like working with a class then starting with a new one in a few months all over again. 

I would never suggest, tell, propose, advise, recommend or advocate someone not post questions no matter how many times they have been posted and or answered before. However I may point them to the site the answers are posted so they can read and learn from that. 

Please understand these are my personal feelings as a member of this forum, not as a moderator.


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## Livingstone (Sep 29, 2009)

Clementine_3 said:


> And this is where I lose you (well, OK, I've totally lost the whole point, but...), it takes mere moments to register and get a confirmatory email and finalize enrollment. Another few minutes to create a post. If the situation is so dire that 10 minutes is going to make a difference it's beyond a little too late. No matter how quickly a post is made it can still be days before someone answers, how would you propose that be fixed? Paid staff sitting at the keyboard 24/7? Even a "special newb section" would be pointless as many, many issues are species specific. So, you would have to have a duplicate forum index for just newbs really.
> Yet you go on to say that no one can control who buys, researches or provides vet care and then somehow imply if they got posting privileges faster and quicker answers all would be solved?
> I'm sorry but I truly, honestly don't have a clue what you are talking about from post to post!



You raise a very interesting point about the difference in species necessitating the a newb section in each species sub-forum.
Im not trying to imply that by creating a section that allows non memb ers to post that all these problems would be solved, but it cant hurt either.


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## -EJ (Sep 29, 2009)

Please... keep in mind that the OP seems to be looking for attention although he/she has touched on a touchy subject.




Crazy1 said:


> OK I was going to stay out of this but here I am with my fingers flying on the keyboard...


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## Livingstone (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks Robyn, again I appreciate you putting my suggestion to the right people, regardless of the outcome. I will continue to try and advise new owners within my ability or otherwise direct them to more knowledgable members like EJ. I will also refrain from posting in such an arguementative manner. My apologies for the confusion, poor communication/posting and agravation.

Rob.


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## -EJ (Sep 29, 2009)

I don't know what to think.

In all the years of of participating in these chats... this is one of the strangest.

The original rant... I didn't like but it did spark some interesting debate.





Livingstone said:


> Thanks Robyn, again I appreciate you putting my suggestion to the right people, regardless of the outcome. I will continue to try and advise new owners within my ability or otherwise direct them to more knowledgable members like EJ. I will also refrain from posting in such an arguementative manner. My apologies for the confusion, poor communication/posting and agravation.
> 
> Rob.


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## terryo (Sep 29, 2009)

I thought it was very interesting....but so confusing.


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## -EJ (Sep 29, 2009)

YOU... a discussion for another day. Again... I don't know what to think.



terryo said:


> I thought it was very interesting....but so confusing.


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## Jerhanner (Sep 30, 2009)

Personally, I'm glad this place exists even if I am a newbie whose first post was "I rescued a Leo, now what do I do?" There was soooooo much contradictory stuff on line I wasn't sure what to believe! The stuff I've read here has been really helpful and educational, and has help me feel that yes, I can make the Horta's life a lot better than it was.


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