# My tortoise ... hates, loves, unhappy, lonely... some part of it's life.



## Kapidolo Farms

Yeah, no they don't. They are telling you something with not so emotional behavior. 

You know how we know people have emotions, because we actually feel what we feel, and can share it non-verbally with others (yeah verbally too).

We know cats and dogs have emotions because they express them to each other and us, they make sounds based on our prompting it, and they head butt us, wag their tails etc.

The key here is how they treat each other much much more than how they treat us. Dogs and cats are affectionate with each other and other animals.

Emotions are a key element in social structures.

So lets take a look see at how tortoises treat each other, lots of ramming and forcing themselves around each other, mating that by anthropocentric standards is nothing less than rape. Mating aversion by biting and ramming. Male male combat in at least some cases resulting in the 'losers' death. 

We are the tree that drops fruit and tortoises do know to go to fruiting trees, flowers plants etc. when the time is right. That's what they 'love' a reliable food source, just like you love your favorite grocery store or farmer's market.

Pacing in front of glass indicates that the tortoise wants the view reduced. Use a green sharpie or low view blocking something. It might also be that the enclosure environmental parameters are not optimal, or it's just too small a space. The want better for survival, they don't hate you or the enclosure.

They have needs, anything less than fulfilling them is what makes us as keepers unhappy, the tortoises just wants what it needs.

Most tortoises are solitary players in the world. A few species have 'get-along' capabilities based on their wild counterparts needing this that are rare in the wild place, like rock shelters for pancakes, shade trees for aldabras, and localized food abundance like tropical species eating fruit under a tree.

While I'm on a rants they are not 'breeds' but species. That is all.


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## Tidgy's Dad

Now, i'm not going to suggest my tortoise loves me, or hates mazuri, or ever gets lonely.
But, like all higher animals they do have a certain amount of emotional response. 
Dogs, cats and people are all warm blooded mammals and are much more closely related to each other than tortoises are to us, it is not surprising that their emotional responses are more recognizable. 
Just because most tortoises are primarily solitary does not mean they are emotionless. 
Lots of ramming, and forcing themselves around each other etc. Lots of men (and some women) exhibit very similar behaviour, or it least where I used to hang out in the evenings at weekends. Male-male combat that may occasionally end in bloodshed. Sexual assault and rape occur even within marriage with alarming regularity even today. Some people are sociopaths, which is not normal in our society, but tortoises are natural sociopaths, it is how they are 'programmed', so comparing their behaviour to ours is in itself anthropocentric. 
Now, although we should all resist the temptation to be anthropomorphic, there is also the tendency to go in the other direction and think that animals don't feel like us, haven't the same depth of emotion, and aren't capable of this and that response. Although this is true, it doesn't mean that they don't feel to some degree and/or in a different way. 
Love is too strong a word, but tortoises will prefer one food to another, one place to the next , like the feel of the sun on their skin, or a head rub, or a shower. These are not just reactions but actual emotional preferences. 
They feel fear, pain, and contentment, why not some degree of like and dislike ?
If the enclosure is too small they feel discontent,ie. are not happy. 
It may only need the basics to survive, but so do we. But we want more, and I put it to you, M'lud, that so do torts. Their quality of life can be greatly enhanced by varying their diet, giving them objects of interest in their enclosures and , yes, being nice to them, they (or at least some of them) 'like' head rubs and a nice sunny day. 
Just because they are solitary creatures does not mean they have no feelings.
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, please be nice to your tortoises, they may not love you for it, but they will be 'happier.'.
I rest my case.


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## Tom

Will said:


> Yeah, no they don't. They are telling you something with not so emotional behavior.
> 
> You know how we know people have emotions, because we actually feel what we feel, and can share it non-verbally with others (yeah verbally too).
> 
> We know cats and dogs have emotions because they express them to each other and us, they make sounds based on our prompting it, and they head butt us, wag their tails etc.
> 
> The key here is how they treat each other much much more than how they treat us. Dogs and cats are affectionate with each other and other animals.
> 
> Emotions are a key element in social structures.
> 
> So lets take a look see at how tortoises treat each other, lots of ramming and forcing themselves around each other, mating that by anthropocentric standards is nothing less than rape. Mating aversion by biting and ramming. Male male combat in at least some cases resulting in the 'losers' death.
> 
> We are the tree that drops fruit and tortoises do know to go to fruiting trees, flowers plants etc. when the time is right. That's what they 'love' a reliable food source, just like you love your favorite grocery store or farmer's market.
> 
> Pacing in front of glass indicates that the tortoise wants the view reduced. Use a green sharpie or low view blocking something. It might also be that the enclosure environmental parameters are not optimal, or it's just too small a space. The want better for survival, they don't hate you or the enclosure.
> 
> They have needs, anything less than fulfilling them is what makes us as keepers unhappy, the tortoises just wants what it needs.
> 
> Most tortoises are solitary players in the world. A few species have 'get-along' capabilities based on their wild counterparts needing this that are rare in the wild place, like rock shelters for pancakes, shade trees for aldabras, and localized food abundance like tropical species eating fruit under a tree.
> 
> While I'm on a rants they are not 'breeds' but species. That is all.



Do you feel better now?


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## Team Gomberg

Honestly, that is one of the reasons I like having a pet tortoise. They don't have emotional requirements. 

Levi is so easy. He has all he needs in my backyard (large space to roam, grass and weeds to eat, shade, sun, water, heated shelter..) and I don't have to do anything for him. No daily walks, no daily food prep, no flea treatments, no time needed out of my day for socializing. Talk about a convenient pet! If I want to go see him, I do. If I don't have time for him, he doesn't care. I look out my kitchen window while doing dishes and see him basking in the sun or eating. He takes care of himself and doesn't need anything from me (apart from the initial set up). 
I never understand the people re homing a turtle or tortoise because they "don't have time for them". A dog, a horse, sure. They need people involved with them. But not a tortoise. I'm so happy with my single tortoise and he's "happy" too.. LOL.


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## Big Ol Tortoise

Team Gomberg said:


> Honestly, that is one of the reasons I like having a pet tortoise. They don't have emotional requirements.
> 
> Levi is so easy. He has all he needs in my backyard (large space to roam, grass and weeds to eat, shade, sun, water, heated shelter..) and I don't have to do anything for him. No daily walks, no daily food prep, no flea treatments, no time needed out of my day for socializing. Talk about a convenient pet! If I want to go see him, I do. If I don't have time for him, he doesn't care. I look out my kitchen window while doing dishes and see him basking in the sun or eating. He takes care of himself and doesn't need anything from me (apart from the initial set up).
> I never understand the people re homing a turtle or tortoise because they "don't have time for them". A dog, a horse, sure. They need people involved with them. But not a tortoise. I'm so happy with my single tortoise and he's "happy" too.. LOL.


YES. This is one of the many reasons why I love turtles and tortoise. I interact with my3 toed a lot so she's used to me but if I left for a month she wouldn't care.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Now, although we should all resist the temptation to be anthropomorphic, there is also the tendency to go in the other direction and think that animals don't feel like us, haven't the same depth of emotion, and aren't capable of this and that response. Although this is true, it doesn't mean that they don't feel to some degree and/or in a different way.



I agree 100%.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Tom said:


> Do you feel better now?


Somewhat.


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## Big Charlie

Team Gomberg said:


> Honestly, that is one of the reasons I like having a pet tortoise. They don't have emotional requirements.
> 
> Levi is so easy. He has all he needs in my backyard (large space to roam, grass and weeds to eat, shade, sun, water, heated shelter..) and I don't have to do anything for him. No daily walks, no daily food prep, no flea treatments, no time needed out of my day for socializing. Talk about a convenient pet! If I want to go see him, I do. If I don't have time for him, he doesn't care. I look out my kitchen window while doing dishes and see him basking in the sun or eating. He takes care of himself and doesn't need anything from me (apart from the initial set up).
> I never understand the people re homing a turtle or tortoise because they "don't have time for them". A dog, a horse, sure. They need people involved with them. But not a tortoise. I'm so happy with my single tortoise and he's "happy" too.. LOL.


I feel the same way. I get happy looking out the window and seeing him grazing. He doesn't care whether I notice him or not. If I don't feel like going outside, I don't. If I want to go on vacation, he won't miss me.


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## bouaboua

Will said:


> Yeah, no they don't. They are telling you something with not so emotional behavior.
> 
> You know how we know people have emotions, because we actually feel what we feel, and can share it non-verbally with others (yeah verbally too).
> 
> We know cats and dogs have emotions because they express them to each other and us, they make sounds based on our prompting it, and they head butt us, wag their tails etc.
> 
> The key here is how they treat each other much much more than how they treat us. Dogs and cats are affectionate with each other and other animals.
> 
> Emotions are a key element in social structures.
> 
> So lets take a look see at how tortoises treat each other, lots of ramming and forcing themselves around each other, mating that by anthropocentric standards is nothing less than rape. Mating aversion by biting and ramming. Male male combat in at least some cases resulting in the 'losers' death.
> 
> We are the tree that drops fruit and tortoises do know to go to fruiting trees, flowers plants etc. when the time is right. That's what they 'love' a reliable food source, just like you love your favorite grocery store or farmer's market.
> 
> Pacing in front of glass indicates that the tortoise wants the view reduced. Use a green sharpie or low view blocking something. It might also be that the enclosure environmental parameters are not optimal, or it's just too small a space. The want better for survival, they don't hate you or the enclosure.
> 
> They have needs, anything less than fulfilling them is what makes us as keepers unhappy, the tortoises just wants what it needs.
> 
> Most tortoises are solitary players in the world. A few species have 'get-along' capabilities based on their wild counterparts needing this that are rare in the wild place, like rock shelters for pancakes, shade trees for aldabras, and localized food abundance like tropical species eating fruit under a tree.
> 
> While I'm on a rants they are not 'breeds' but species. That is all.


Hi Will:

May I have your permission to translate this and post in a Chinese Tortoise forum? I will for sure, to mention where it's originated.


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## leigti

bouaboua said:


> Hi Will:
> 
> May I have your permission to translate this and post in a Chinese Tortoise forum? I will for sure, to mention where it's originated.


I think you should translate the comment by Tidgy's dad also. I think both statements give a good overview of how people should think about tortoises.


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## bouaboua

leigti said:


> I think you should translate the comment by Tidgy's dad also. I think both statements give a good overview of how people should think about tortoises.


Absolutely.

@Tidgy's Dad May I???


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## Tidgy's Dad

bouaboua said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> @Tidgy's Dad May I???


Of course you may, Steven. 
I would be most honoured.


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## Fredkas

bouaboua said:


> Hi Will:
> 
> May I have your permission to translate this and post in a Chinese Tortoise forum? I will for sure, to mention where it's originated.


Hey i would like to browse that forum, can you give me a link?

I see the thread title and thought, "hey, Will find something to say about tortoise not so solitary animal!!! i should see it". it happens that there is no way of that .
Sometimes i am thinking it is sad that we as a human love them a lot and just want they know, "be a friend with me, i am caring you." it is not gonna happen with tortoise although i am still hoping that once a while. if you imagine tortoise as a human, they would look like people who don't know how to say thanks, rape any one they feel like to, and do whatever they want without thinking too much. but they are tortoise, maybe this simple life "do as what they want" and less emotional make them live longer.
Anyway, this "no-attachment" behavior is the reason that makes me get one of them, this makes me no need to feel guilty if i have to have a trip and leave them. they don't care, maybe they just thinking "hmmm... looks like winter/summer is coming, my food not very good and fresh this time around." but this damn human feeling once in a blue moon still wonder, "hey tort, can you just miss me a little? Give some affection."

*my complicated unstable mammals natural feeling.


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## bouaboua

H


Fredkas said:


> Hey i would like to browse that forum, can you give me a link?
> 
> I see the thread title and thought, "hey, Will find something to say about tortoise not so solitary animal!!! i should see it". it happens that there is no way of that .
> Sometimes i am thinking it is sad that we as a human love them a lot and just want they know, "be a friend with me, i am caring you." it is not gonna happen with tortoise although i am still hoping that once a while. if you imagine tortoise as a human, they would look like people who don't know how to say thanks, rape any one they feel like to, and do whatever they want without thinking too much. but they are tortoise, maybe this simple life "do as what they want" and less emotional make them live longer.
> Anyway, this "no-attachment" behavior is the reason that makes me get one of them, this makes me no need to feel guilty if i have to have a trip and leave them. they don't care, maybe they just thinking "hmmm... looks like winter/summer is coming, my food not very good and fresh this time around." but this damn human feeling once in a blue moon still wonder, "hey tort, can you just miss me a little? Give some affection."
> 
> *my complicated unstable mammals natural feeling.


Here you go......

http://bbs.cngui.com/forum-18-1.html

This is the link to the Tortoise section. They also have turtles and box turtles section. Google translate are handy if you don't know how to read Chinese.


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## bouaboua

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Of course you may, Steven.
> I would be most honoured.


Thank you Sir.


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## Kapidolo Farms

bouaboua said:


> Hi Will:
> 
> May I have your permission to translate this and post in a Chinese Tortoise forum? I will for sure, to mention where it's originated.


Absolutely, go ahead. Frankly I think Tidgy's dad and I wrote the same comment from different sides of the world.


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## bouaboua

Will said:


> Absolutely, go ahead. Frankly I think Tidgy's dad and I wrote the same comment from different sides of the world.


Thank you Will! !


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## leigti

Will said:


> Absolutely, go ahead. Frankly I think Tidgy's dad and I wrote the same comment from different sides of the world.


Kind of. But people relate to them in different ways.


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## jcalpacagirl34

My question is do red foot tortoises like being held by their owners?


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## JoesMum

jcalpacagirl34 said:


> My question is do red foot tortoises like being held by their owners?


As with all tortoises, the answer is that some don't mind being held. 

Some hate it, some tolerate it and they're all happiest with 4 feet on the ground.


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## jcalpacagirl34

Gotcha. Thanks


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## Mortis_thetortoise

just because you dont understand their behavior doesnt mean they lack emotion. 
i have tarantulas. they have emotion and personality. granted the spiders are incredibly more easy to care for. 

people assume both are boring and lack personality and emotion...... i disagree.
once you stop being close minded its easy to understand how they show their emotions. 

its like saying bees just fly around and sting and collect pollen. bees talk to each other by wing movements and other body language. another bee can determine if they are unwelcome or in danger. they help each other and communicate with each other to build the hive. they join together and take down an enemy.....

what is a language? its nothing but a combination of tones and sounds people of the same understanding recognize to communicate with others in the community. cant understand a bees wing pattern? that doesn't mean they aren't communicating just because YOU cant understand it. if people are speaking a language you don't understand, does that mean they are not communicating with each other? 

tortoises obviously haven't learned to understand and speak english but they still talk and show emotion with body language. its easy to tell if your tortoise is too hot because itll roam around looking for a cooler space. itll tell you its hungry by looking for food and eating. if its pissed off or scared itll be in it shell. if your tortoise wants to get out of its enclosure. it will try. they think. they look at the environment and take into considerations their surroundings. have you ever seen your tortoise stop walking, look around and change direction? that's because they are thinking and are wanting to go that way. 

just because their method of communication is different than another human doesn't mean they arent smart or lack emotion.


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## Yvonne G

I don't think that was the intent of Will's post at all.


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## KevinGG

Mortis_thetortoise said:


> just because you dont understand their behavior doesnt mean they lack emotion.
> i have tarantulas. they have emotion and personality. granted the spiders are incredibly more easy to care for.
> 
> people assume both are boring and lack personality and emotion...... i disagree.
> once you stop being close minded its easy to understand how they show their emotions.
> 
> its like saying bees just fly around and sting and collect pollen. bees talk to each other by wing movements and other body language. another bee can determine if they are unwelcome or in danger. they help each other and communicate with each other to build the hive. they join together and take down an enemy.....
> 
> what is a language? its nothing but a combination of tones and sounds people of the same understanding recognize to communicate with others in the community. cant understand a bees wing pattern? that doesn't mean they aren't communicating just because YOU cant understand it. if people are speaking a language you don't understand, does that mean they are not communicating with each other?
> 
> tortoises obviously haven't learned to understand and speak english but they still talk and show emotion with body language. its easy to tell if your tortoise is too hot because itll roam around looking for a cooler space. itll tell you its hungry by looking for food and eating. if its pissed off or scared itll be in it shell. if your tortoise wants to get out of its enclosure. it will try. they think. they look at the environment and take into considerations their surroundings. have you ever seen your tortoise stop walking, look around and change direction? that's because they are thinking and are wanting to go that way.
> 
> just because their method of communication is different than another human doesn't mean they arent smart or lack emotion.



I don't think any example you provided shows that turtles are capable of emotion. Nor do I think that Wills post said anything about turtles not being intelligent.


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## Oxalis

I really enjoyed reading this thread and everyone made some good points. Just out of curiosity, I was wondering how the "relationship" between Owen (the hippo) and Mzee (the Aldabra tortoise) plays in to this idea. Is the "emotional" part of this bond only experienced by Owen while Mzee just tolerates it? Is it possible that Mzee eventually "enjoyed" Owen's company? But how would we humans be able to tell? Furthermore, I've noticed that several Aldabras "like" a neck rub every now and then. Is it possible that they can care about that and actually seek it out from their human keepers? Are these instances just anomalies of the reptile family or am I looking too much into it? This is not my area of expertise but I find it quite interesting, so I figured I'd ask the experts here. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_and_Mzee


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## theguy67

This is an interesting topic. I believe tortoises may have SOME emotional capabilities, as I have seen my redfoots approach each other and make small grunting noises. The male will also court the females. Head bobbing, following around the enclosure. I wouldn't say the females have no choice in the matter, as I have seen my male bullied by the females before. Its also amazing to see them develop a hierarchy. Very complex for what most people would consider for a tortoise/turtle. However, I think its important to say these social abilities are still very limited compared to that of mammals. I do not think they have a concept of love, or hate, just tolerance and stress.

Many people have emotions invested in their animals, so I don't want to stomp on that. I try to look at the project as a whole, and draw attachment and fulfillment from that, rather than spending my emotional energy on individual tortoises, as it is no reciprocated. I'd say more but can see this becoming a very controversial topic, and hope this thread remains constructive. Compared to other reptile forums, I think TF does a great job and keeping the peace.


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## Oxalis

theguy67 said:


> This is an interesting topic. I believe tortoises may have SOME emotional capabilities, as I have seen my redfoots approach each other and make small grunting noises. The male will also court the females. Head bobbing, following around the enclosure. I wouldn't say the females have no choice in the matter, as I have seen my male bullied by the females before. Its also amazing to see them develop a hierarchy. Very complex for what most people would consider for a tortoise/turtle. However, I think its important to say these social abilities are still very limited compared to that of mammals. I do not think they have a concept of love, or hate, just tolerance and stress.
> 
> Many people have emotions invested in their animals, so I don't want to stomp on that. I try to look at the project as a whole, and draw attachment and fulfillment from that, rather than spending my emotional energy on individual tortoises, as it is no reciprocated. I'd say more but can see this becoming a very controversial topic, and hope this thread remains constructive. Compared to other reptile forums, I think TF does a great job and keeping the peace.


Thanks for your input.  It is quite difficult to try to think outside the human box of emotional responses when observing a tort's behavior. I love my little Steve so much and he most likely doesn't understand or care about that but it does make me happy, especially when his face "lights up" because his mom brought him some food.  I guess that will have to do for now.


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## theguy67

Oxalis said:


> Thanks for your input.  It is quite difficult to try to think outside the human box of emotional responses when observing a tort's behavior. I love my little Steve so much and he most likely doesn't understand or care about that but it does make me happy, especially when his face "lights up" because his mom brought him some food.  I guess that will have to do for now.



I do enjoy how curious they become, even if it is just for food. Anytime I dig a hole, they have to dive in and smell around. If I sit down in the enclosure, they come over and see what I am doing. I bring them food, so obviously that is what they are responding to. Fish do the same thing, but I think we are raised in a somewhat black and white manner when it comes to validity of projects or hobbies. The way society views turtles/tortoises is typically low on the grand scheme of animals. Dogs, cats, up top, with livestock in the middle, followed by the less cuddly reptiles, and then the gross stuff (bugs, worms, etc.). This trend also seems to be dependent on how intelligent the animal is.Probably because intelligence provides another dimension for us to interact and relate to the animal (also our society puts very high importance on intelligence). Just like fur allows us to physically interact with them, intelligence allows for social interactions. Generally speaking, keeping a turtle or tortoise may be seen as quite pointless by the public ("What do you really do with it? Watch it walk around?") probably due to them not being seen as "pets" in the sense of a companion animal. I guess what I'm getting at is, we are heavily influenced by society's views, and may feel attacked when someone reminds us how tortoises aren't social, or aren't as intelligent as animal x, y, or z. BUT, I think there are other ways to gain fulfillment from raising tortoises, as most of us already do. By studying diet, general husbandry, and breeding, we are learning about an animal, and thus learning about our world and even ourselves. Most non-reptile/animal people won't understand that, and that's ok. An animal not being as intelligent as another doesn't make them less valuable. 

I state the previous, as I use to feel somewhat offended when someone would tell me how dumb tortoises were, and how I needed a cooler pet. I found it difficult to argue the "intelligent" side of the debate (although they are smarter than most give them credit for), but I have since accepted the above points I listed and stopped caring what others think. I've also combined keeping tortoises with gardening so I can continue to branch out in my different areas of interest.


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## Oxalis

theguy67 said:


> I do enjoy how curious they become, even if it is just for food. Anytime I dig a hole, they have to dive in and smell around. If I sit down in the enclosure, they come over and see what I am doing. I bring them food, so obviously that is what they are responding to. Fish do the same thing, but I think we are raised in a somewhat black and white manner when it comes to validity of projects or hobbies. The way society views turtles/tortoises is typically low on the grand scheme of animals. Dogs, cats, up top, with livestock in the middle, followed by the less cuddly reptiles, and then the gross stuff (bugs, worms, etc.). This trend also seems to be dependent on how intelligent the animal is.Probably because intelligence provides another dimension for us to interact and relate to the animal (also our society puts very high importance on intelligence). Just like fur allows us to physically interact with them, intelligence allows for social interactions. Generally speaking, keeping a turtle or tortoise may be seen as quite pointless by the public ("What do you really do with it? Watch it walk around?") probably due to them not being seen as "pets" in the sense of a companion animal. I guess what I'm getting at is, we are heavily influenced by society's views, and may feel attacked when someone reminds us how tortoises aren't social, or aren't as intelligent as animal x, y, or z. BUT, I think there are other ways to gain fulfillment from raising tortoises, as most of us already do. By studying diet, general husbandry, and breeding, we are learning about an animal, and thus learning about our world and even ourselves. Most non-reptile/animal people won't understand that, and that's ok. An animal not being as intelligent as another doesn't make them less valuable.
> 
> I state the previous, as I use to feel somewhat offended when someone would tell me how dumb tortoises were, and how I needed a cooler pet. I found it difficult to argue the "intelligent" side of the debate (although they are smarter than most give them credit for), but I have since accepted the above points I listed and stopped caring what others think. I've also combined keeping tortoises with gardening so I can continue to branch out in my different areas of interest.


Aw, that was a lovely response; thank you for sharing.  I've noticed that while many of my friends and family can be confused as to why I may choose to keep a tortoise, they almost always enjoy asking questions about him, and they smile or laugh when they see him. He's an active tort and can be entertaining to observe. Steve has really gotten me into gardening too—which I now refer to as "tortoise gardening"—and it has definitely become one of my favorite hobbies.


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## Big Charlie

theguy67 said:


> I do enjoy how curious they become, even if it is just for food. Anytime I dig a hole, they have to dive in and smell around. If I sit down in the enclosure, they come over and see what I am doing. I bring them food, so obviously that is what they are responding to. Fish do the same thing, but I think we are raised in a somewhat black and white manner when it comes to validity of projects or hobbies. The way society views turtles/tortoises is typically low on the grand scheme of animals. Dogs, cats, up top, with livestock in the middle, followed by the less cuddly reptiles, and then the gross stuff (bugs, worms, etc.). This trend also seems to be dependent on how intelligent the animal is.Probably because intelligence provides another dimension for us to interact and relate to the animal (also our society puts very high importance on intelligence). Just like fur allows us to physically interact with them, intelligence allows for social interactions. Generally speaking, keeping a turtle or tortoise may be seen as quite pointless by the public ("What do you really do with it? Watch it walk around?") probably due to them not being seen as "pets" in the sense of a companion animal. I guess what I'm getting at is, we are heavily influenced by society's views, and may feel attacked when someone reminds us how tortoises aren't social, or aren't as intelligent as animal x, y, or z. BUT, I think there are other ways to gain fulfillment from raising tortoises, as most of us already do. By studying diet, general husbandry, and breeding, we are learning about an animal, and thus learning about our world and even ourselves. Most non-reptile/animal people won't understand that, and that's ok. An animal not being as intelligent as another doesn't make them less valuable.
> 
> I state the previous, as I use to feel somewhat offended when someone would tell me how dumb tortoises were, and how I needed a cooler pet. I found it difficult to argue the "intelligent" side of the debate (although they are smarter than most give them credit for), but I have since accepted the above points I listed and stopped caring what others think. I've also combined keeping tortoises with gardening so I can continue to branch out in my different areas of interest.


I used to think Charlie was curious too. But now I think it is part of guarding his territory. By getting close to someone, he is doing the same thing he would do if he was trying to intimidate another tortoise who had invaded his space. This is just my theory. I have no way of knowing since he isn't talking. We tend to interpret behavior from a human standpoint so it is difficult to think there are other reasons for behavior than what seems obvious to us. Some years we have feral cats in our yard. Charlie will stay near them. When we have workmen in our yard, he hangs around them, often getting in their way. He is less "curious" about what I'm doing, unless I'm cutting down food. Most of the time, I have to call him to get his attention.

I think tortoises are one of the coolest pets a person can get. They are more challenging than a straight-forward pet like a dog that is easy to understand. I think Charlie is at least as intelligent as guinea pigs, which are cuddly furballs.


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## theguy67

Oxalis said:


> Aw, that was a lovely response; thank you for sharing.  I've noticed that while many of my friends and family can be confused as to why I may choose to keep a tortoise, they almost always enjoy asking questions about him, and they smile or laugh when they see him. He's an active tort and can be entertaining to observe. Steve has really gotten me into gardening too—which I now refer to as "tortoise gardening"—and it has definitely become one of my favorite hobbies.



I really like how gardening and tortoise keeping go hand-in-hand. It does add some challenge though, as you have to make sure the plants are safe. I currently have 6 types of fruiting plants (blueberries, raspberries, bananas, grapes, figs, pomegranates) in my pen. I wanted it to be a multipurpose area, with the fruit being grown for people. The red-foots get plenty that falls over the course of the harvest season. And guests do enjoy looking at the pen, and observing the animals. I often forget how different they must look for someone who has never seen them before. Also, many are usually surprised to learn how "smart" they can actually be. 



Big Charlie said:


> I used to think Charlie was curious too. But now I think it is part of guarding his territory. By getting close to someone, he is doing the same thing he would do if he was trying to intimidate another tortoise who had invaded his space. This is just my theory. I have no way of knowing since he isn't talking. We tend to interpret behavior from a human standpoint so it is difficult to think there are other reasons for behavior than what seems obvious to us. Some years we have feral cats in our yard. Charlie will stay near them. When we have workmen in our yard, he hangs around them, often getting in their way. He is less "curious" about what I'm doing, unless I'm cutting down food. Most of the time, I have to call him to get his attention.
> 
> I think tortoises are one of the coolest pets a person can get. They are more challenging than a straight-forward pet like a dog that is easy to understand. I think Charlie is at least as intelligent as guinea pigs, which are cuddly furballs.



I suppose curious is the wrong word. My sulcata gets territorial, my redfoots less so. But most of the time when I go in there and they "welcome" me, they are looking for food. I typically bring food with me, so they have been trained to respond to my presence in such a way. Believe me, I typically fall on the "non-intelligent" side of the discussion when it comes to tortoises, and I often try to avoid giving them human characteristics.


----------



## Kapidolo Farms

The Hippo Aldabra story is interesting indeed. Hippos are very social, and Aldabras are social to at a minimum that they share retreats from the sun. Aldabras are obligate social tortoises if not pro-active social tortoises. They have to be, at least, at a minimum - social. 

With the hippo and tortoise it is difficult to sort out the story as told from what their actual day to day might be. It does seem they prefer each others proximity based on the narratives and images. 

Again the point to consider is how these animals treat each other. Hippos are social and Aldabras are social. They do spend much time together as wild free will individuals. Some of the mystery is what is the driver for these behaviors. 

In the case of Aldabras for instance. If the first tortoise to secure shade pushed others away, eventually the largest animal would win, and the others survival would likely diminish. Over time there would be fewer animals until each retreat had but one animal. Their survival as a species would be much more vulnerable to exogenous threats. They don't do that. It seems if not by cooperation but simply a slow motion shoving match they have been seen to fill shade/retreats to the maximum number that can fit. They are social out of necessity, at the least.

All that is a far distant thing than someone contemplating their tortoise "hates" them for not offering a steady supply of strawberries.


----------



## Oxalis

Will said:


> The Hippo Aldabra story is interesting indeed. Hippos are very social, and Aldabras are social to at a minimum that they share retreats from the sun. Aldabras are obligate social tortoises if not pro-active social tortoises. They have to be, at least, at a minimum - social.
> 
> With the hippo and tortoise it is difficult to sort out the story as told from what their actual day to day might be. It does seem they prefer each others proximity based on the narratives and images.
> 
> Again the point to consider is how these animals treat each other. Hippos are social and Aldabras are social. They do spend much time together as wild free will individuals. Some of the mystery is what is the driver for these behaviors.
> 
> In the case of Aldabras for instance. If the first tortoise to secure shade pushed others away, eventually the largest animal would win, and the others survival would likely diminish. Over time there would be fewer animals until each retreat had but one animal. Their survival as a species would be much more vulnerable to exogenous threats. They don't do that. It seems if not by cooperation but simply a slow motion shoving match they have been seen to fill shade/retreats to the maximum number that can fit. They are social out of necessity, at the least.
> 
> All that is a far distant thing than someone contemplating their tortoise "hates" them for not offering a steady supply of strawberries.


Thanks for the "necessity" clarification. I like that explanation. This has been a great thread!


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## TammyJ

We humans have assigned ourselves as the most highly "intelligent" animals on the planet. Emotion seems to be linked to a degree of "intelligence". I don't actually believe that tortoises feel any "emotions". Fear, lust, hunger, defensiveness - these are not emotions, they are needs, requirements for their survival.


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## Cathie G

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Now, i'm not going to suggest my tortoise loves me, or hates mazuri, or ever gets lonely.
> But, like all higher animals they do have a certain amount of emotional response.
> Dogs, cats and people are all warm blooded mammals and are much more closely related to each other than tortoises are to us, it is not surprising that their emotional responses are more recognizable.
> Just because most tortoises are primarily solitary does not mean they are emotionless.
> Lots of ramming, and forcing themselves around each other etc. Lots of men (and some women) exhibit very similar behaviour, or it least where I used to hang out in the evenings at weekends. Male-male combat that may occasionally end in bloodshed. Sexual assault and rape occur even within marriage with alarming regularity even today. Some people are sociopaths, which is not normal in our society, but tortoises are natural sociopaths, it is how they are 'programmed', so comparing their behaviour to ours is in itself anthropocentric.
> Now, although we should all resist the temptation to be anthropomorphic, there is also the tendency to go in the other direction and think that animals don't feel like us, haven't the same depth of emotion, and aren't capable of this and that response. Although this is true, it doesn't mean that they don't feel to some degree and/or in a different way.
> Love is too strong a word, but tortoises will prefer one food to another, one place to the next , like the feel of the sun on their skin, or a head rub, or a shower. These are not just reactions but actual emotional preferences.
> They feel fear, pain, and contentment, why not some degree of like and dislike ?
> If the enclosure is too small they feel discontent,ie. are not happy.
> It may only need the basics to survive, but so do we. But we want more, and I put it to you, M'lud, that so do torts. Their quality of life can be greatly enhanced by varying their diet, giving them objects of interest in their enclosures and , yes, being nice to them, they (or at least some of them) 'like' head rubs and a nice sunny day.
> Just because they are solitary creatures does not mean they have no feelings.
> Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, please be nice to your tortoises, they may not love you for it, but they will be 'happier.'.
> I rest my case.


absolutely true and they might hate another tortoise but they love to snuggle in a cat's fur.


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## Big Charlie

Cathie G said:


> absolutely true and they might hate another tortoise but they love to snuggle in a cat's fur.


Doesn't everyone?


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## Cathie G

Big Charlie said:


> Doesn't everyone?


Lol yea warm and cozy. Too bad the cat was scared of a little tortoise....


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## Cathie G

JoesMum said:


> As with all tortoises, the answer is that some don't mind being held.
> 
> Some hate it, some tolerate it and they're all happiest with 4 feet on the ground.


You don't even wanna know what happens to you if you carry my box turtle in the air. I carry her on a fluffy towel cause she hates to fly.


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## jsheffield

I guess that I disagree with the op.

I believe tortoises can have, and express, emotions.

Jamie


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## Cathie G

jsheffield said:


> I guess that I disagree with the op.
> 
> I believe tortoises can have, and express, emotions.
> 
> Jamie


My little guy walks up to me and puts his little paw on my foot and looks me straight in the eye. If that isn't love and trust then what is?!


----------



## drew54

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Now, i'm not going to suggest my tortoise loves me, or hates mazuri, or ever gets lonely.
> But, like all higher animals they do have a certain amount of emotional response.
> Dogs, cats and people are all warm blooded mammals and are much more closely related to each other than tortoises are to us, it is not surprising that their emotional responses are more recognizable.
> Just because most tortoises are primarily solitary does not mean they are emotionless.
> Lots of ramming, and forcing themselves around each other etc. Lots of men (and some women) exhibit very similar behaviour, or it least where I used to hang out in the evenings at weekends. Male-male combat that may occasionally end in bloodshed. Sexual assault and rape occur even within marriage with alarming regularity even today. Some people are sociopaths, which is not normal in our society, but tortoises are natural sociopaths, it is how they are 'programmed', so comparing their behaviour to ours is in itself anthropocentric.
> Now, although we should all resist the temptation to be anthropomorphic, there is also the tendency to go in the other direction and think that animals don't feel like us, haven't the same depth of emotion, and aren't capable of this and that response. Although this is true, it doesn't mean that they don't feel to some degree and/or in a different way.
> Love is too strong a word, but tortoises will prefer one food to another, one place to the next , like the feel of the sun on their skin, or a head rub, or a shower. These are not just reactions but actual emotional preferences.
> They feel fear, pain, and contentment, why not some degree of like and dislike ?
> If the enclosure is too small they feel discontent,ie. are not happy.
> It may only need the basics to survive, but so do we. But we want more, and I put it to you, M'lud, that so do torts. Their quality of life can be greatly enhanced by varying their diet, giving them objects of interest in their enclosures and , yes, being nice to them, they (or at least some of them) 'like' head rubs and a nice sunny day.
> Just because they are solitary creatures does not mean they have no feelings.
> Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, please be nice to your tortoises, they may not love you for it, but they will be 'happier.'.
> I rest my case.



As a behavioral specialist I agree with everything, but then being born sociopaths. They are more narcissist than anything. Sociopaths feel almost nothing and this is because they lack basic emotional understanding and most of all lack empathy. Anyway, back to your point. I understand completely that many experts, breeders, etc. Would agree that reptiles are the exception to the rule, but I have witnessed very different things as a behaviorist in my many plus years of studying humans and animal behaviour.


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## drew54

jcalpacagirl34 said:


> My question is do red foot tortoises like being held by their owners?



Reptiles remind me of teenagers. They are capable of learning and showing some human emotion but they rather be stubborn little sh- you understand.

The more you interact with them the more they get used to it. That doesn't mean they have to like it. If they show signs of distress then limit their handling that day. Study up on bearded dragons. I think torts and beardies have some similar behaviors when it comes to handling.


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## drew54

Mortis_thetortoise said:


> just because you dont understand their behavior doesnt mean they lack emotion.
> i have tarantulas. they have emotion and personality. granted the spiders are incredibly more easy to care for.
> 
> people assume both are boring and lack personality and emotion...... i disagree.
> once you stop being close minded its easy to understand how they show their emotions.
> 
> its like saying bees just fly around and sting and collect pollen. bees talk to each other by wing movements and other body language. another bee can determine if they are unwelcome or in danger. they help each other and communicate with each other to build the hive. they join together and take down an enemy.....
> 
> what is a language? its nothing but a combination of tones and sounds people of the same understanding recognize to communicate with others in the community. cant understand a bees wing pattern? that doesn't mean they aren't communicating just because YOU cant understand it. if people are speaking a language you don't understand, does that mean they are not communicating with each other?
> 
> tortoises obviously haven't learned to understand and speak english but they still talk and show emotion with body language. its easy to tell if your tortoise is too hot because itll roam around looking for a cooler space. itll tell you its hungry by looking for food and eating. if its pissed off or scared itll be in it shell. if your tortoise wants to get out of its enclosure. it will try. they think. they look at the environment and take into considerations their surroundings. have you ever seen your tortoise stop walking, look around and change direction? that's because they are thinking and are wanting to go that way.
> 
> just because their method of communication is different than another human doesn't mean they arent smart or lack emotion.



Bees communicate with pheromones also like most living things. Communication doesn't have to be sounds or movements it can also be distinguished through different scents (Pheromones). Most mammals communicate with pheromones also. We do, dogs, cats, etc. Spiders creep me out so it's hard for me to study their behavior when I'm constantly paranoid it's going to crawl in mer or something. I would be interested in seeing some short clips of your tarantula behavior. I have studied a lot of things but spiders it's hard lol I know a lot about spiders in general and a little about behaviour but not their personalities or anything.


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## drew54

TammyJ said:


> We humans have assigned ourselves as the most highly "intelligent" animals on the planet. Emotion seems to be linked to a degree of "intelligence". I don't actually believe that tortoises feel any "emotions". Fear, lust, hunger, defensiveness - these are not emotions, they are needs, requirements for their survival.



Fear and lust are emotional responses. Hunger is a physiological response that can trigger emotional responses. Emotions are learned responses and instinctual responses. All animals display emotion to some degree. And you don't have to be intelligent to feel or display emotions.


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## drew54

theguy67 said:


> I do enjoy how curious they become, even if it is just for food. Anytime I dig a hole, they have to dive in and smell around. If I sit down in the enclosure, they come over and see what I am doing. I bring them food, so obviously that is what they are responding to. Fish do the same thing, but I think we are raised in a somewhat black and white manner when it comes to validity of projects or hobbies. The way society views turtles/tortoises is typically low on the grand scheme of animals. Dogs, cats, up top, with livestock in the middle, followed by the less cuddly reptiles, and then the gross stuff (bugs, worms, etc.). This trend also seems to be dependent on how intelligent the animal is.Probably because intelligence provides another dimension for us to interact and relate to the animal (also our society puts very high importance on intelligence). Just like fur allows us to physically interact with them, intelligence allows for social interactions. Generally speaking, keeping a turtle or tortoise may be seen as quite pointless by the public ("What do you really do with it? Watch it walk around?") probably due to them not being seen as "pets" in the sense of a companion animal. I guess what I'm getting at is, we are heavily influenced by society's views, and may feel attacked when someone reminds us how tortoises aren't social, or aren't as intelligent as animal x, y, or z. BUT, I think there are other ways to gain fulfillment from raising tortoises, as most of us already do. By studying diet, general husbandry, and breeding, we are learning about an animal, and thus learning about our world and even ourselves. Most non-reptile/animal people won't understand that, and that's ok. An animal not being as intelligent as another doesn't make them less valuable.
> 
> I state the previous, as I use to feel somewhat offended when someone would tell me how dumb tortoises were, and how I needed a cooler pet. I found it difficult to argue the "intelligent" side of the debate (although they are smarter than most give them credit for), but I have since accepted the above points I listed and stopped caring what others think. I've also combined keeping tortoises with gardening so I can continue to branch out in my different areas of interest.



I agree with you. I find it aggravating when a person stated that reptiles be turtles, tortoises, beardies, or whatever all have distinct personalities then argue they don't have emotional capabilities. I agree 100% that reptiles don't understand the concept of love or hate, but I do believe they can be taught some of these concepts though. Sea turtles are a great example, beardies, even crocodiles show and understand some complex emotional responses and the rules and laws in their hierarchical communities are just fascinating.

In my time studying behavior, human and animal, I've seen a caiman show affection to their young. Most interestingly, I witnessed a caiman show affection to its owner. 

On the flip side reptile behaviors can also be very ambiguous at times. It's hard to decipher a language when you don't exactly know it.


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## TammyJ

Cathie G said:


> My little guy walks up to me and puts his little paw on my foot and looks me straight in the eye. If that isn't love and trust then what is?!


It's good for you to interpret his behaviour as love and trust. It means that you will take really great care of him and love him too!
BUT. Maybe he walks up to you and puts his "little paw" on your foot, and looks you straight in the eye to tell you to get the heck out of his space.


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## Cathie G

TammyJ said:


> It's good for you to interpret his behaviour as love and trust. It means that you will take really great care of him and love him too!
> BUT. Maybe he walks up to you and puts his "little paw" on your foot, and looks you straight in the eye to tell you to get the heck out of his space.


No it was more like I'm hungry and would rather go eat something good. It's still trust that I would obey him...lol


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## Cathie G

theguy67 said:


> I really like how gardening and tortoise keeping go hand-in-hand. It does add some challenge though, as you have to make sure the plants are safe. I currently have 6 types of fruiting plants (blueberries, raspberries, bananas, grapes, figs, pomegranates) in my pen. I wanted it to be a multipurpose area, with the fruit being grown for people. The red-foots get plenty that falls over the course of the harvest season. And guests do enjoy looking at the pen, and observing the animals. I often forget how different they must look for someone who has never seen them before. Also, many are usually surprised to learn how "smart" they can actually be.
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose curious is the wrong word. My sulcata gets territorial, my redfoots less so. But most of the time when I go in there and they "welcome" me, they are looking for food. I typically bring food with me, so they have been trained to respond to my presence in such a way. Believe me, I typically fall on the "non-intelligent" side of the discussion when it comes to tortoises, and I often try to avoid giving them human characteristics.


Obviously they've learned that you are trained enough to trust...lol .I like my animals spoiled enough to tell me what they want.when they want it. And if it's reasonable I will give it. However, they are little babies crawling around needing help.


----------



## TammyJ

Cathie G said:


> Obviously they've learned that you are trained enough to trust...lol .I like my animals spoiled enough to tell me what they want.when they want it. And if it's reasonable I will give it. However, they are little babies crawling around needing help.


Yeah, sounds like an old boy friend or two of mine....lol!


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## Cathie G

drew54 said:


> I agree with you. I find it aggravating when a person stated that reptiles be turtles, tortoises, beardies, or whatever all have distinct personalities then argue they don't have emotional capabilities. I agree 100% that reptiles don't understand the concept of love or hate, but I do believe they can be taught some of these concepts though. Sea turtles are a great example, beardies, even crocodiles show and understand some complex emotional responses and the rules and laws in their hierarchical communities are just fascinating.
> 
> In my time studying behavior, human and animal, I've seen a caiman show affection to their young. Most interestingly, I witnessed a caiman show affection to its owner.
> 
> On the flip side reptile behaviors can also be very ambiguous at times. It's hard to decipher a language when you don't exactly know it.


Every critter has emotions. Humans are ruled by reason and animals by instincts. Sometimes emotions can rule over all of that and you may get to witness animals just having fun with each other. I've seen it many times.


----------



## drew54

Cathie G said:


> Every critter has emotions. Humans are ruled by reason and animals by instincts. Sometimes emotions can rule over all of that and you may get to witness animals just having fun with each other. I've seen it many times.



Technically we are all animals of some sort ruled by both just some more than others. 

I think it's about time that I show proof to everyone. Below I have posted rare photos of a tortoise named Filbert spending time with his friends.





Below I have rare photos of a 6 year old turtle named Franklin playing with his friends.




I hope this puts all the current debate to rest once and for all. [emoji16]


----------



## Cathie G

Mortis_thetortoise said:


> just because you dont understand their behavior doesnt mean they lack emotion.
> i have tarantulas. they have emotion and personality. granted the spiders are incredibly more easy to care for.
> 
> people assume both are boring and lack personality and emotion...... i disagree.
> once you stop being close minded its easy to understand how they show their emotions.
> 
> its like saying bees just fly around and sting and collect pollen. bees talk to each other by wing movements and other body language. another bee can determine if they are unwelcome or in danger. they help each other and communicate with each other to build the hive. they join together and take down an enemy.....
> 
> what is a language? its nothing but a combination of tones and sounds people of the same understanding recognize to communicate with others in the community. cant understand a bees wing pattern? that doesn't mean they aren't communicating just because YOU cant understand it. if people are speaking a language you don't understand, does that mean they are not communicating with each other?
> 
> tortoises obviously haven't learned to understand and speak english but they still talk and show emotion with body language. its easy to tell if your tortoise is too hot because itll roam around looking for a cooler space. itll tell you its hungry by looking for food and eating. if its pissed off or scared itll be in it shell. if your tortoise wants to get out of its enclosure. it will try. they think. they look at the environment and take into considerations their surroundings. have you ever seen your tortoise stop walking, look around and change direction? that's because they are thinking and are wanting to go that way.
> 
> just because their method of communication is different than another human doesn't mean they arent smart or lack emotion.





Mortis_thetortoise said:


> just because you dont understand their behavior doesnt mean they lack emotion.
> i have tarantulas. they have emotion and personality. granted the spiders are incredibly more easy to care for.
> 
> people assume both are boring and lack personality and emotion...... i disagree.
> once you stop being close minded its easy to understand how they show their emotions.
> 
> its like saying bees just fly around and sting and collect pollen. bees talk to each other by wing movements and other body language. another bee can determine if they are unwelcome or in danger. they help each other and communicate with each other to build the hive. they join together and take down an enemy.....
> 
> what is a language? its nothing but a combination of tones and sounds people of the same understanding recognize to communicate with others in the community. cant understand a bees wing pattern? that doesn't mean they aren't communicating just because YOU cant understand it. if people are speaking a language you don't understand, does that mean they are not communicating with each other?
> 
> tortoises obviously haven't learned to understand and speak english but they still talk and show emotion with body language. its easy to tell if your tortoise is too hot because itll roam around looking for a cooler space. itll tell you its hungry by looking for food and eating. if its pissed off or scared itll be in it shell. if your tortoise wants to get out of its enclosure. it will try. they think. they look at the environment and take into considerations their surroundings. have you ever seen your tortoise stop walking, look around and change direction? that's because they are thinking and are wanting to go that way.
> 
> just because their method of communication is different than another human doesn't mean they arent smart or lack emotion.





Mortis_thetortoise said:


> just because you dont understand their behavior doesnt mean they lack emotion.
> i have tarantulas. they have emotion and personality. granted the spiders are incredibly more easy to care for.
> 
> people assume both are boring and lack personality and emotion...... i disagree.
> once you stop being close minded its easy to understand how they show their emotions.
> 
> its like saying bees just fly around and sting and collect pollen. bees talk to each other by wing movements and other body language. another bee can determine if they are unwelcome or in danger. they help each other and communicate with each other to build the hive. they join together and take down an enemy.....
> 
> what is a language? its nothing but a combination of tones and sounds people of the same understanding recognize to communicate with others in the community. cant understand a bees wing pattern? that doesn't mean they aren't communicating just because YOU cant understand it. if people are speaking a language you don't understand, does that mean they are not communicating with each other?
> 
> tortoises obviously haven't learned to understand and speak english but they still talk and show emotion with body language. its easy to tell if your tortoise is too hot because itll roam around looking for a cooler space. itll tell you its hungry by looking for food and eating. if its pissed off or scared itll be in it shell. if your tortoise wants to get out of its enclosure. it will try. they think. they look at the environment and take into considerations their surroundings. have you ever seen your tortoise stop walking, look around and change direction? that's because they are thinking and are wanting to go that way.
> 
> just because their method of communication is different than another human doesn't mean they arent smart or lack emotion.


amen


----------



## Cathie G

drew54 said:


> Technically we are all animals of some sort ruled by both just some more than others.
> 
> I think it's about time that I show proof to everyone. Below I have posted rare photos of a tortoise named Filbert spending time with his friends.
> View attachment 255678
> View attachment 255679
> View attachment 255680
> 
> 
> Below I have rare photos of a 6 year old turtle named Franklin playing with his friends.
> View attachment 255681
> View attachment 255682
> 
> 
> I hope this puts all the current debate to rest once and for all. [emoji16]


Whatever,so how are you getting some rest? My mom always told me that"if u want peace go to the cemetery"...I think I'd rather debate.


----------



## drew54

Cathie G said:


> Whatever,so how are you getting some rest? My mom always told me that"if u want peace go to the cemetery"...I think I'd rather debate.



No rest at any cemetery I've been to. The dead are always talking.


----------



## Cathie G

Oxalis said:


> I really enjoyed reading this thread and everyone made some good points. Just out of curiosity, I was wondering how the "relationship" between Owen (the hippo) and Mzee (the Aldabra tortoise) plays in to this idea. Is the "emotional" part of this bond only experienced by Owen while Mzee just tolerates it? Is it possible that Mzee eventually "enjoyed" Owen's company? But how would we humans be able to tell? Furthermore, I've noticed that several Aldabras "like" a neck rub every now and then. Is it possible that they can care about that and actually seek it out from their human keepers? Are these instances just anomalies of the reptile family or am I looking too much into it? This is not my area of expertise but I find it quite interesting, so I figured I'd ask the experts here.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_and_Mzee


I I think if you see that kind of behavior initiated by the animal and keep doing it with them....the animal will understand that you heard them. Keep watching because they might initiate a new fun game too.


----------



## Cathie G

drew54 said:


> No rest at any cemetery I've been to. The dead are always talking.[/QUOTE and so are the living.


----------



## drew54

Oxalis said:


> I really enjoyed reading this thread and everyone made some good points. Just out of curiosity, I was wondering how the "relationship" between Owen (the hippo) and Mzee (the Aldabra tortoise) plays in to this idea. Is the "emotional" part of this bond only experienced by Owen while Mzee just tolerates it? Is it possible that Mzee eventually "enjoyed" Owen's company? But how would we humans be able to tell? Furthermore, I've noticed that several Aldabras "like" a neck rub every now and then. Is it possible that they can care about that and actually seek it out from their human keepers? Are these instances just anomalies of the reptile family or am I looking too much into it? This is not my area of expertise but I find it quite interesting, so I figured I'd ask the experts here.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_and_Mzee



Reptiles are capable of seeking comfort and they do in various ways mostly through biological needs. Food, shelter, heat, etc.

The instance of the hippo and the aldabra might be rare occurrence with tortoises but there have been many instances of this in a lot of reptiles. There was a story out many years ago about this guys bearded dragon befriended a mouse. The guy put the mouse in with the lizard thinking it was going to eat it and the lizard never did. Instead the mouse would stick beside the beardie or perched on its head. Their interactions were pretty interesting and the lizard never showed any signs of aggression towards the mouse in any way.

To be honest this behavior reminds me of I believe is the trap door spider. The spider will employee a mouse to lure food to the to the spider and in return the mouse can eat instead of being eaten. 

The tortoise and lizard may have in fact made friends with the mammals as many seem to do with their owners or its simply a business relation. They both are very possible, but many would argue that is purely business. Simply because reptiles are territorial and not known to just socialize with other animals or even members of their species that doesn't result in aggression.

You might have also seen the video of the sulcata flipping the other sulcata over on its feet. Although, we don't get to see what happened before hand we can only speculate that the tortoise was either actually helping the other tortoise or it was an act of aggression. We don't really know because we don't have all the details of what happened before and after. I bring this up because many people are quick to assume that it's compassion, but I'm not so quick to think so. Not saying that reptiles aren't capable of compassion, but there isn't any defining evidence of such behavior.

I do believe that any species of animal can be taught a number of things from behaviors to emotions to some degree captive or wild. The problem is finding an effective teaching method tat the animal can learn to understand. Most behaviorists opt for conditioning through positive and negative reinforcement as seen in dogs, dolphins, hyenas, birds, etc.

There was a guy who try to train a sulcata hatchling using conditioning methods to modify and teach behavior. Was he successful? For the most part he was. Behaviour is often more easily modified and taught than teaching emotion and feeling. Now, mind you the behavior he had taught the hatchling wss merely to hit a button to get a reward. If I can find that source again I'll post it on here.

I know this didn't answer your questions with an absolute answer, but hopefully it gives you a better understanding. There is a lot of mixed views on the matter and I feel I have presented what I've learned objectively. 

I hope this helps.


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## TammyJ

drew54 said:


> No rest at any cemetery I've been to. The dead are always talking.


Long as they are not Walking.


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## Cathie G

TammyJ said:


> Long as they are not Walking.


Well I did see some pretty strange people out walking tonight...but I'd rather do a brain storm on tortoise forum every day of the week.


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## Cathie G

drew54 said:


> As a behavioral specialist I agree with everything, but then being born sociopaths. They are more narcissist than anything. Sociopaths feel almost nothing and this is because they lack basic emotional understanding and most of all lack empathy. Anyway, back to your point. I understand completely that many experts, breeders, etc. Would agree that reptiles are the exception to the rule, but I have witnessed very different things as a behaviorist in my many plus years of studying humans and animal behaviour.


It's no wonder a tortoise is born a sociopath. Their mom burys them in the ground and takes off...no wonder they love almost everyone but another tortoise...


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## drew54

Cathie G said:


> It's no wonder a tortoise is born a sociopath. Their mom burys them in the ground and takes off...no wonder they love almost everyone but another tortoise...



When tiny humans are born they are born sociopathic and narcissistic. Survival instinct is all that is known until the brain develops enough for the baby to learn empathy from the mother. Natural basic emotions begin to become present also. Basic emotions and gestures are universal which suggests that basic emotions and gestures are innate. Pretty interesting. I would love to see videos of everyone's tortoise interacting with them.


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## Cathie G

drew54 said:


> When tiny humans are born they are born sociopathic and narcissistic. Survival instinct is all that is known until the brain develops enough for the baby to learn empathy from the mother. Natural basic emotions begin to become present also. Basic emotions and gestures are universal which suggests that basic emotions and gestures are innate. Pretty interesting. I would love to see videos of everyone's tortoise interacting with them.


I think humans never understand anything until they actually experience it themselves. I'm guilty of that but I hope to become a better person without having to learn thru experience. It hurts. I am trying to learn how to do this internet stuff and post pictures and videos. I promise I will soon.


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## Cathie G

drew54 said:


> Reptiles are capable of seeking comfort and they do in various ways mostly through biological needs. Food, shelter, heat, etc.
> 
> The instance of the hippo and the aldabra might be rare occurrence with tortoises but there have been many instances of this in a lot of reptiles. There was a story out many years ago about this guys bearded dragon befriended a mouse. The guy put the mouse in with the lizard thinking it was going to eat it and the lizard never did. Instead the mouse would stick beside the beardie or perched on its head. Their interactions were pretty interesting and the lizard never showed any signs of aggression towards the mouse in any way.
> 
> To be honest this behavior reminds me of I believe is the trap door spider. The spider will employee a mouse to lure food to the to the spider and in return the mouse can eat instead of being eaten.
> 
> The tortoise and lizard may have in fact made friends with the mammals as many seem to do with their owners or its simply a business relation. They both are very possible, but many would argue that is purely business. Simply because reptiles are territorial and not known to just socialize with other animals or even members of their species that doesn't result in aggression.
> 
> You might have also seen the video of the sulcata flipping the other sulcata over on its feet. Although, we don't get to see what happened before hand we can only speculate that the tortoise was either actually helping the other tortoise or it was an act of aggression. We don't really know because we don't have all the details of what happened before and after. I bring this up because many people are quick to assume that it's compassion, but I'm not so quick to think so. Not saying that reptiles aren't capable of compassion, but there isn't any defining evidence of such behavior.
> 
> I do believe that any species of animal can be taught a number of things from behaviors to emotions to some degree captive or wild. The problem is finding an effective teaching method tat the animal can learn to understand. Most behaviorists opt for conditioning through positive and negative reinforcement as seen in dogs, dolphins, hyenas, birds, etc.
> 
> There was a guy who try to train a sulcata hatchling using conditioning methods to modify and teach behavior. Was he successful? For the most part he was. Behaviour is often more easily modified and taught than teaching emotion and feeling. Now, mind you the behavior he had taught the hatchling wss merely to hit a button to get a reward. If I can find that source again I'll post it on here.
> 
> I know this didn't answer your questions with an absolute answer, but hopefully it gives you a better understanding. There is a lot of mixed views on the matter and I feel I have presented what I've learned objectively.
> 
> I hope this helps.


No wonder the guy didn't actually gain the animal's trust. You have to be sincere with the animal and then they will give you the gift of their trust. I guess they don't like being a guinea pig. Do u blame them?


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## drew54

Cathie G said:


> No wonder the guy didn't actually gain the animal's trust. You have to be sincere with the animal and then they will give you the gift of their trust. I guess they don't like being a guinea pig. Do u blame them?





Cathie G said:


> No wonder the guy didn't actually gain the animal's trust. You have to be sincere with the animal and then they will give you the gift of their trust. I guess they don't like being a guinea pig. Do u blame them?


 let's say that you recreated the experiment. Your relationship to the subject is your own hatchling. Your level of care is top notch and you're very caring for your tiny tort. Do you think you would have better results than let's say a person who want emotionally connected not cared for the tiny hatchling? 
Your statement about trust has me curious.


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## Cathie G

drew54 said:


> let's say that you recreated the experiment. Your relationship to the subject is your own hatchling. Your level of care is top notch and you're very caring for your tiny tort. Do you think you would have better results than let's say a person who want emotionally connected not cared for the tiny hatchling?
> Your statement about trust has me curious.


This is a hard question to answer because I've had so many strangely beautiful encounters of the animal kind.lol... I just have always enjoyed watching animals be themselves. I can type some examples. I had moved into the home I presently live in. In the early morning, as I was heading to work, I had to walk through the back yard to my van. Every morning there was a wild rabbit waiting for me by my van. I couldn't see him and I was looking. Then he would take off running and brush his body across me. If he wanted he could have hurt me. I didn't feed or raise him so what was that? I was only years old. My mom, 3 siblings, and I were out picking blackberries in the woods and got our buckets full. When we were walking home we had to cross over a ditch next to the road. I'm a really small person so I didn't jump the ditch. I walked on the grasses through the ditch. Well...I stepped on a probably 8 foot mommy black snake. All she did was raise her head and part of her body and look at me. I would have bit me. I lived and worked in a wildlife sanctuary in southwest Florida. I always thought I wanted a turtle. Then I met my first wild gopher tortoise. She loved apple slices and I would hand feed her a few once in awhile. One day I was giving her some slices and she was so eager for the apples she almost bit me. She pulled her head back to keep from biting me. So I'm asking, what was that? She probably didn't want to pollute herself but she also interacted with me. I did fall in love with tortoises. I've had many encounters over 65 years with many different animals. My life in the sanctuary was really interesting but my favorite was the tortoise.


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## drew54

Your story is very interesting. I think all creatures want some sort of interaction. That doesn't mean they all want to sit and have a cup of tea with you and discuss world events. The instance with the rabbit I think many people have ran into animals who have done similar things. I know I have. Depending on where you want to go with the explanation that will most definitely impact the answer. oBviously)

The snake not biting you is very interesting also. Maybe you didn't really step on it. Maybe it was just luck. I have no idea. Coyote Peterson might say it has to do with respect. One thing I do know is that there are so many variables to every situation it's hard to know for sure. Maybe if you stepped on the snake again it will bite you. Who Knows.


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## TammyJ

Cathie G said:


> I think humans never understand anything until they actually experience it themselves. I'm guilty of that but I hope to become a better person without having to learn thru experience. It hurts. I am trying to learn how to do this internet stuff and post pictures and videos. I promise I will soon.


Hmmm. I feel the same way. and I think I may be a closet narcissistic sociopath.....Oh dear.


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## Cathie G

drew54 said:


> Your story is very interesting. I think all creatures want some sort of interaction. That doesn't mean they all want to sit and have a cup of tea with you and discuss world events. The instance with the rabbit I think many people have ran into animals who have done similar things. I know I have. Depending on where you want to go with the explanation that will most definitely impact the answer. oBviously)
> 
> The snake not biting you is very interesting also. Maybe you didn't really step on it. Maybe it was just luck. I have no idea. Coyote Peterson might say it has to do with respect. One thing I do know is that there are so many variables to every situation it's hard to know for sure. Maybe if you stepped on the snake again it will bite you. Who Knows.


Yes that's so true...but I did step on her because I felt her body move under my foot. As I got older I've learned to watch my feet while walking in their habitat. I think mommy black snakes are an essential part of our environment. I certainly wouldn't want to hurt her by stepping on her again. People kill them simply because they are afraid of snakes but they keep rats, mice, and even poisonous snakes under control. Like I said I would have bit me if I was her but she didn't.


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## drew54

I had a similar experience. My cousin was driving my brother and I around on his three wheeler and went right into a yellow mustard field. We hit a bees nest or something and he and my brother were stung over 30 times each. I wasnt stung at all not even once. Which was a remarkable outcome because I'm highly allergic and I most likely would've died within minutes.


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## Cheryl Hills

I have had an experience with a rattle snake years ago. I worked with mentally challenged people. We were at camp and I noticed one of my girls hitting something with a stick. When I went over it was a rattle snake. I got between her and the snake which put it about a foot away from me. As I turned to see what it was doing, the snake was going the other way. Good for both of us!


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## drew54

Cheryl Hills said:


> I have had an experience with a rattle snake years ago. I worked with mentally challenged people. We were at camp and I noticed one of my girls hitting something with a stick. When I went over it was a rattle snake. I got between her and the snake which put it about a foot away from me. As I turned to see what it was doing, the snake was going the other way. Good for both of us!


Seems like the three of us got very lucky.


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## Cathie G

drew54 said:


> Seems like the three of us got very lucky.


I think we are blessed. I've had more experiences then that one. I'm sure most people that actually love animals have had similar things happen to them. Isn't it wonderful. But I'm not saying to trust an animal because in the right circumstances stuff can go south real quick...


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## elizabeth marie

A great thread . .i often wonder if my tort even likes me . .he looks so annoyed a lot of the time . . But . . If my son is looking after Torty he doesn't eat and hardly moves around his run . I also notice if I leave the garden he goes in to a corner when I come back he resumes his wanders, do I make him feel more secure ? .about his memory and intelligence. .the year before last I left the garden gate open . .Torty was on the loose for 2 hours . .ever after his bid for freedom. .as soon as anyone goes out the gate Torty rushes over to check if it's been left open again . .hmm clever yes ? Does he like me ? I do wonder is he trying to bite me or. .just keen for his good grub anyway i am blind to his faults. Just devoted and dedicated :0)


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## Cathie G

Cheryl Hills said:


> I have had an experience with a rattle snake years ago. I worked with mentally challenged people. We were at camp and I noticed one of my girls hitting something with a stick. When I went over it was a rattle snake. I got between her and the snake which put it about a foot away from me. As I turned to see what it was doing, the snake was going the other way. Good for both of us!


I just now found this post from you...Elizabeth Marie is so right about this thread. It's interesting what can go on with animals.


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## pawsplus

I don't know if this thread is dead by this point or not? But I thought I would add to it. I guess I feel that when we do not know for sure, we owe animals the favor of not making assumptions either way. And we don't know. We really have no idea what reptiles can think or feel. Some studies give us indications one way or another, but without being in their heads, we don't really know. So it's important to neither follow Descartes and assume they are mere machines, nor to follow our human hearts and make them human. They are neither, but somewhere in between--and it is unlikely that any of us will ever be sure where they fall on the spectrum. 

My tortoise, who has known me since she was a hatchling (she is now 22 years old) clearly is more comfortable with me than with anyone else. My pet sitter, who plays up to her to get her to like her, always comments on that. And I can give Beasley a meal of her favorite foods, but unless I leave her alone she will come to me instead for head rubs and shell scratches. She chooses me over her favorite foods. That means something. I do NOT know what it means. But I mark it with interest.

Re: food: The fact is that love in all species is based in food. At the most basic level, you love your mother because she kept you alive by feeding you. There is a reason why food gifts and holidays based around food are so popular. There is a reason why most first dates involve a dinner out. So the fact that a tortoise bonds to you, in whatever degree she is able, because you are the food provider, does not automatically eliminate the possibility of some sort of affection. 

As the initial poster said, wild tortoises are known to hang around certain trees at certain times of the year--sometimes in huge numbers--as they wait for the fruit to fall. Perhaps, in their tortoise brains and hearts, they have affection for that tree, just as, perhaps, my tortoise does for me. Perhaps.

I definitely agree that assuming that any animal--even a dog--thinks or loves as we do does them no favors. A good example is the assumption that dogs show "guilt" when they have a mistake in the house. It's not guilt--it's submission b/c in the past the owner has freaked out in a similar situation, and not acknowledging that damages the animal and the relationship. Making those assumptions about tortoises also does them no favors. But swinging the other way may be equally unfair.

I try to just keep my mind open and watch Beasley's behavior with interest. The important factor is to remember that we are all just naturalists, observing the little chunk of nature living in our houses or our yards. And good naturalists observe and record, interpreting where possible but avoiding the pitfall of human narcissism -- making everyone else like us.


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## Cathie G

pawsplus said:


> I don't know if this thread is dead by this point or not? But I thought I would add to it. I guess I feel that when we do not know for sure, we owe animals the favor of not making assumptions either way. And we don't know. We really have no idea what reptiles can think or feel. Some studies give us indications one way or another, but without being in their heads, we don't really know. So it's important to neither follow Descartes and assume they are mere machines, nor to follow our human hearts and make them human. They are neither, but somewhere in between--and it is unlikely that any of us will ever be sure where they fall on the spectrum.
> 
> My tortoise, who has known me since she was a hatchling (she is now 22 years old) clearly is more comfortable with me than with anyone else. My pet sitter, who plays up to her to get her to like her, always comments on that. And I can give Beasley a meal of her favorite foods, but unless I leave her alone she will come to me instead for head rubs and shell scratches. She chooses me over her favorite foods. That means something. I do NOT know what it means. But I mark it with interest.
> 
> Re: food: The fact is that love in all species is based in food. At the most basic level, you love your mother because she kept you alive by feeding you. There is a reason why food gifts and holidays based around food are so popular. There is a reason why most first dates involve a dinner out. So the fact that a tortoise bonds to you, in whatever degree she is able, because you are the food provider, does not automatically eliminate the possibility of some sort of affection.
> 
> As the initial poster said, wild tortoises are known to hang around certain trees at certain times of the year--sometimes in huge numbers--as they wait for the fruit to fall. Perhaps, in their tortoise brains and hearts, they have affection for that tree, just as, perhaps, my tortoise does for me. Perhaps.
> 
> I definitely agree that assuming that any animal--even a dog--thinks or loves as we do does them no favors. A good example is the assumption that dogs show "guilt" when they have a mistake in the house. It's not guilt--it's submission b/c in the past the owner has freaked out in a similar situation, and not acknowledging that damages the animal and the relationship. Making those assumptions about tortoises also does them no favors. But swinging the other way may be equally unfair.
> 
> I try to just keep my mind open and watch Beasley's behavior with interest. The important factor is to remember that we are all just naturalists, observing the little chunk of nature living in our houses or our yards. And good naturalists observe and record, interpreting where possible but avoiding the pitfall of human narcissism -- making everyone else like us.


I now have my first fish. He's a little half moon Betta. How in the world does a little fish decide it likes you? I know he likes me but I also think he likes people in general. When I go to his tank to feed him I have to play with him to get him to eat. He's more interested in watching me. So it's not that I'm the food god. I think he's just a friendly little guy. You can actually tell he's not upset he's just interested. Animals aren't stupid. They have their intelligence and their instinct.? Sometimes I have a really hard time out thinking them.?


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## Maca

Kapidolo Farms said:


> While I'm on a rants they are not 'breeds' but species. That is all.


This! Especially when they put them up for rehome, and say “you need to have done your research, this breed does not hibernate” Hmmm, had you done yours, you’d get the irony…
And people that get annoyed because someone called their tort a turtle.


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