# Baby sulcata in kidney failure



## stojanovski92113 (Aug 2, 2014)

Hello I'm new to the forum! I have a baby sulcata tortoise that was given to me as a wedding gift. Everyone knows I love tortoises! I have 4 red foots as well. I got blood work done on my sulcata which indicated he's septic & in severe kidney failure & it's been nearly 2 months & he's still hanging in there. However he doesn't move much, eat, or open his eyes very often. His legs are swollen too :-( I soak him 4 times a day for almost 15 - 20 mins a day. I have a nice size plastic container he's in with a Mercury vapor bulb. I use paper towel & timothy hay as substrate at this time. I've taken him in numerous times for tube feeding due to him being on meloxicam, baytril & calcium carbinate & since he's not eating, I'd want something in his tummy with all that medicine. However, he occasionally is interested in his food but is so weak he can't really eat. Anyways just wondering on suggestions & any experiences from others with kidney failure. I also stopped giving my tortoise Baytril after a month, after researching this drug. Would love any feedback! Thank you!!


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## mike taylor (Aug 2, 2014)

Man that sucks . The only thing I can tell you is to get him outside for an hour or so . Keep his enclosure no lower than 80º . Soak him as much as possible and add baby food to the soaking water . Like carrots or you can use Pedialyte in the soak .


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## Reptilelove (Aug 3, 2014)

I hope everything works out well and that you baby gets better, I mean that from the heart


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## stojanovski92113 (Aug 3, 2014)

Thanks guys! I never thought of adding baby food to his water while soaking! Thank you so much  also when it's nice outside I get him out for sure, but this summer has been pretty chilly!


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## Yellow Turtle01 (Aug 3, 2014)

Oh no  I'm very sorry for the little guy. 
Just make sure he has a warm humid environment, and maybe try a something special, like a bit of fruit, to tempt him.


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## stojanovski92113 (Aug 3, 2014)

Thanks you...I'm surprised he's still alive to be honest!! Some days are better than others. He's having a pretty good day today. His eyes are open & he's more active today. I hope he makes it to be a big ol' sulcata...I really love this little guy!!!!


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## mike taylor (Aug 3, 2014)

Can you post pictures of the enclosure? Let us know the temperature and humidity levels . I have been thinking maybe that bright mvb lamp is burning his eyes making him hide . This is just a guess . I use 40 watt lamps from Wal-mart for day time heat then a che at night .For uvb I use a t8 24" 10.0 fixture .


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## stojanovski92113 (Aug 4, 2014)

mike taylor said:


> Can you post pictures of the enclosure? Let us know the temperature and humidity levels . I have been thinking maybe that bright mvb lamp is burning his eyes making him hide . This is just a guess . I use 40 watt lamps from Wal-mart for day time heat then a che at night .For uvb I use a t8 24" 10.0 fixture .




Ok...I'm not sure how to post pictures on here. I did some research & I found that you have to have a photobucket account. Is that true?


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## kball (Aug 4, 2014)

stojanovski92113 said:


> Ok...I'm not sure how to post pictures on here. I did some research & I found that you have to have a photobucket account. Is that true?



If u have the app for your phone ipad or ipod u can look up your thread on there and add them from your camera roll. That's how I do it anyways.


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## stojanovski92113 (Aug 4, 2014)

stojanovski92113 said:


> Hello I'm new to the forum! I have a baby sulcata tortoise that was given to me as a wedding gift. Everyone knows I love tortoises! I have 4 red foots as well. I got blood work done on my sulcata which indicated he's septic & in severe kidney failure & it's been nearly 2 months & he's still hanging in there. However he doesn't move much, eat, or open his eyes very often. His legs are swollen too :-( I soak him 4 times a day for almost 15 - 20 mins a day. I have a nice size plastic container he's in with a Mercury vapor bulb. I use paper towel & timothy hay as substrate at this time. I've taken him in numerous times for tube feeding due to him being on meloxicam, baytril & calcium carbinate & since he's not eating, I'd want something in his tummy with all that medicine. However, he occasionally is interested in his food but is so weak he can't really eat. Anyways just wondering on suggestions & any experiences from others with kidney failure. I also stopped giving my tortoise Baytril after a month, after researching this drug. Would love any feedback! Thank you!!


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## stojanovski92113 (Aug 4, 2014)

stojanovski92113 said:


> Hello I'm new to the forum! I have a baby sulcata tortoise that was given to me as a wedding gift. Everyone knows I love tortoises! I have 4 red foots as well. I got blood work done on my sulcata which indicated he's septic & in severe kidney failure & it's been nearly 2 months & he's still hanging in there. However he doesn't move much, eat, or open his eyes very often. His legs are swollen too :-( I soak him 4 times a day for almost 15 - 20 mins a day. I have a nice size plastic container he's in with a Mercury vapor bulb. I use paper towel & timothy hay as substrate at this time. I've taken him in numerous times for tube feeding due to him being on meloxicam, baytril & calcium carbinate & since he's not eating, I'd want something in his tummy with all that medicine. However, he occasionally is interested in his food but is so weak he can't really eat. Anyways just wondering on suggestions & any experiences from others with kidney failure. I also stopped giving my tortoise Baytril after a month, after researching this drug. Would love any feedback! Thank you!!





kball said:


> If u have the app for your phone ipad or ipod u can look up your thread on there and add them from your camera roll. That's how I do it anyways.





kball said:


> If u have the app for your phone ipad or ipod u can look up your thread on there and add them from your camera roll. That's how I do it anyways.





kball said:


> If u have the app for your phone ipad or ipod u can look up your thread on there and add them from your camera roll. That's how I do it anyways.


 


kball said:


> If u have the app for your phone ipad or ipod u can look up your thread on there and add them from your camera roll. That's how I do it anyways.


Thanks for your help!!! I'm still learning how this forum works.


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## tortadise (Aug 4, 2014)

The best thin for kidney values that are off is fluids. Electrolytes in pedialyte has lots of sugars which can throw some difficulties into the animal. You need to soak him an get fluids from a vet, like ringers or sodium chloride. The little guy being so small your going to have to give orally as by injectable drip will be very difficult. Being so young it's gotta be reversible and have a hopeful positive end result. For now keeping him warm but very hydrated is key. Soak 3-5 times a day. Spray food down is he's eating. Offer very high fiber and calcium rich foods


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## stojanovski92113 (Aug 4, 2014)

He eats very little on his own. I put a scoop of baby food carrots in his lettuce & he did take a bite of it & walked away. Another thing is that his feet are swollen were he cut up his feet & legs so bad from his spikey shell. Now he only has a few toenails left. Will he re-grow nails? This poor guy has been through so much!


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## mike taylor (Aug 4, 2014)

That set up is all wrong. Get him some substrate and that round temperature/ humidity gauge chunk that sucker in the trash . Get you a big tote from Wal-Mart for like 20 $ put six inches of coco choir and put your water bowl and hides back in . Then get you a digital meter from Wal-Mart for 10$ so you can read the right temperature and humidity . Cover the top and cut a hole just big enough for lighting . This should work to keep temperature and humidity up . If he is to cold he will not eat or move very much .


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## stojanovski92113 (Aug 4, 2014)

Ok sounds good!! The only reason I took out substrate was for his legs to heal. His legs & feet were cut up but they are healing niceley. I do have a digital thermometer too. But will definitely change his husbandry!


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## Team Gomberg (Aug 4, 2014)

Hatchling failure syndrome or "beef jerky syndrome" sounds like a possibility with this guy, too. 

Search for those terms here on the forum to read more about it.

Where did this guy come from? (before he was a wedding gift) How was it kept/housed in it's first days or weeks of life?

Read the Sulcata caresheet to make sure you set this baby up correctly and give him the best fighting chance.


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## stojanovski92113 (Aug 4, 2014)

Team Gomberg said:


> Hatchling failure syndrome or "beef jerky syndrome" sounds like a possibility with this guy, too.
> 
> Search for those terms here on the forum to read more about it.
> 
> ...


I never heard of the "beef jerky syndrome" but researching I sure did come across the hatchling failure syndrome. He was bought from an exotic reptile pet shop. I also found some good stuff on the sulcata station. It's just hard to know what to do & what not to do. He's so small. My red foots are so hardy!! This little guy is breaking my heart!


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## mike taylor (Aug 4, 2014)

Go to the top of the sulcata section and follow Tom's care sheets . I think you just have him set up wrong .


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## Tom (Aug 4, 2014)

Sulcatas are just as hardy, if not hardier than RFs, IF they are started correctly and housed correctly. Sadly, most people, including breeders, think they are "desert" animals and house them far too dry. This kills their internal organs and no amount of money or vet care can save them. Sulcata babies hatch during the RAINY season over there. Its hot, humid, marshy and it rains frequently. Yes the area is dry for 8-9 months of the year, but they are underground in humid burrows during that time, and that is NOT when new babies erupt from the ground.

Please read these for a better explanation:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/


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## stojanovski92113 (Aug 4, 2014)

Oh WOW!!!!!! Thank you so much for this information!! I will most definetly turn his house around!! I don't even get knowledge like this at the vet ! Thank you again for your help!!


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## Tom (Aug 4, 2014)

stojanovski92113 said:


> Oh WOW!!!!!! Thank you so much for this information!! I will most definetly turn his house around!! I don't even get knowledge like this at the vet ! Thank you again for your help!!



Its really depressing at times. We have only recently begun to figure all this out. I have been amassing puzzle pieces for years, but there are still many unanswered questions. Most breeders, vets, pet stores, authors and "experts" are still recommending the old, outdated, incorrect ways.

Here is another analogy. There are earthworms all over most of the planet. Imagine bringing and earthworm home from the Sahel region of Africa where sulcatas come from and setting it up with dry substrate, no water bowl and a hot bulb. How long do you think it would live? The same thing happens to the INSIDE of our baby tortoises when they are housed this way. Obviously their skin and scales slow this process down compared to the earthworm, but the concept is the same. Baby tortoises are hunkered down in thick underbrush on damp ground. It is very hot and humid and there are puddles everywhere from all the rain.

Here is another thread you might enjoy. Look at the dates:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding.15137/


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## mike taylor (Aug 4, 2014)

I knew it was setup problems . Now that Tom's on the job your tortoise will be better off.


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## stojanovski92113 (Aug 4, 2014)

Again guys...I can't thank you enough for your feedback! I'm glad that I joined this forum & got this information!!


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## Tom (Aug 4, 2014)

stojanovski92113 said:


> Again guys...I can't thank you enough for your feedback! I'm glad that I joined this forum & got this information!!



I only ask that you share it to spare others the same fate. Tell that store and educate your vet. We had it wrong for decades, but we are figuring it out now.


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## stojanovski92113 (Aug 4, 2014)

Tom said:


> I only ask that you share it to spare others the same fate. Tell that store and educate your vet. We had it wrong for decades, but we are figuring it out now.


You know what really erks me???? I have been going to the vet since June 18th almost every other week....I have spent sooooooooooooo much money on my baby & like I said before, I stopped the baytril which not sure if that's a good move or bad move, but do you know that they never really asked too much information or were concerned of his husbandry. Wouldn't you think that that's something as a vet, like a key point to ask your patients?!?! Well I plan on changing his husbandry. But a mvb is too strong for him you think?


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## Yvonne G (Aug 4, 2014)

Yes. I'd go with the tube-type fluorescent bulb and raise it up higher than recommended on the package.

Most vets learn about how to treat illness and injury. It isn't as important for them to also know husbandry. Not only that, but what we're learning now about keeping babies moist/humid, is new stuff. It eventually, through clients like you, will get filtered up to the vets and hopefully, if you have a success story, they will learn from us.


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## Tom (Aug 4, 2014)

stojanovski92113 said:


> You know what really erks me???? I have been going to the vet since June 18th almost every other week....I have spent sooooooooooooo much money on my baby & like I said before, I stopped the baytril which not sure if that's a good move or bad move, but do you know that they never really asked too much information or were concerned of his husbandry. Wouldn't you think that that's something as a vet, like a key point to ask your patients?!?! Well I plan on changing his husbandry. But a mvb is too strong for him you think?



It all depends on what size and type of enclosure you have. I like closed chambers and MVBs are just too hot for them in most cases. In my area I can sun my torts all year long, so I don't need indoor UV. I just use regular flood bulbs for heat and regular florescent tubes for light. If I needed indoor UV, I would probably use the HO tubes at this point.

Your experience with the vet is not unusual, I'm sorry to say. Unless you find a vet that is heavily "into" torts and raises their own, I'm afraid they won't be much help for some things. Even when you do find one that keeps his or her own, they often have read the same old outdated info as everyone else. Its up to us to spread the word.


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## stojanovski92113 (Aug 4, 2014)

Yvonne G said:


> Yes. I'd go with the tube-type fluorescent bulb and raise it up higher than recommended on the package.
> 
> Most vets learn about how to treat illness and injury. It isn't as important for them to also know husbandry. Not only that, but what we're learning now about keeping babies moist/humid, is new stuff. It eventually, through clients like you, will get filtered up to the vets and hopefully, if you have a success story, they will learn from us.


Thanks Yvonne for your input  I guess that does make sense about the vets not asking about husbandry as much as they should. But they sure do love to give medications & send ya on your way & hoping it will do the job.


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## stojanovski92113 (Aug 4, 2014)

Tom said:


> It all depends on what size and type of enclosure you have. I like closed chambers and MVBs are just too hot for them in most cases. In my area I can sun my torts all year long, so I don't need indoor UV. I just use regular flood bulbs for heat and regular florescent tubes for light. If I needed indoor UV, I would probably use the HO tubes at this point.
> 
> Your experience with the vet is not unusual, I'm sorry to say. Unless you find a vet that is heavily "into" torts and raises their own, I'm afraid they won't be much help for some things. Even when you do find one that keeps his or her own, they often have read the same old outdated info as everyone else. Its up to us to spread the word.


Thanks Tom for your information. It's been very helpful for both me & my baby sulcata "Spike." I'm hoping that the change in his home will really turn him around!


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## Kim444 (Aug 4, 2014)

When I adopted my golden greek tort recently they gave me vet papers and right on the papers it says to feed him wet dog food, wtf?


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## stojanovski92113 (Aug 4, 2014)

Kim444 said:


> When I adopted my golden greek tort recently they gave me vet papers and right on the papers it says to feed him wet dog food, wtf?[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Kim444 said:
> ...


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## Kim444 (Aug 4, 2014)

actually it was the previous owners who gave me the vet papers from a previous vet visit they had with him. I adopted him from smeone on Kijiji who needed to find him a new home. And she lived with a vet tech, ugh. They gave me the vet papers to show he had no parasites etc and was in good health.


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## stojanovski92113 (Aug 4, 2014)

Kim444 said:


> actually it was the previous owners who gave me the vet papers from a previous vet visit they had with him. I adopted him from smeone on Kijiji who needed to find him a new home. And she lived with a vet tech, ugh. They gave me the vet papers to show he had no parasites etc and was in good health.


Oh boy... well as long as you got yourself a healthy tortoise and theres not pyramiding from too much protein, that's a plus!


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## Kim444 (Aug 5, 2014)

they never actually fed it dog food, it's just that the vet recommended it.


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## stojanovski92113 (Aug 5, 2014)

Kim444 said:


> they never actually fed it dog food, it's just that the vet recommended it.


 YIKES!!


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