# New Tort Table = Agitated Tort? DESPERATE!



## brianfurtado (Mar 14, 2010)

Hey guys... I learned a lot from this forum, and one of the things I decided to do was take Chloe from her glass vibe and move her into a larger tort table, which I bought from Tortoise Supply. As far the table itself, it is a great table, lightweight and well-constructed.

As far as my 4 year old Greek, I'm not sure what started happening today. After a few days, she suddenly has started acting weird. The first few days were fine... She would hide in the "Hide" portion of the enclosure, filled with Timothy Hay. On the other side, she would explore, bask, eat and bask some more.

Today, she is desperately trying to claw her way out... to the point where I have found her flipped THREE times today. I raised her substrate a bit higher so she's not extended to much along the sides where she can lose her balance. 

When I take her out of the enclosure she instantly dashes across the floor in my living room. I have fed her, and she eats, and I have soaked her as well, but she suddenly doesn't seem 'comfortable' any more. It's literally a desperate attempt for her to get out... She's actually clawing her way through the mesh top.


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## terryo (Mar 14, 2010)

I don't know anything about Greeks, but could it be too hot? Is there a cooler part that she can go to?


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## brianfurtado (Mar 14, 2010)

Yup. Her hide is at 75 and her eating area is 85. The basking portion is 95-100. The gradients seem great.


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## Stephanie Logan (Mar 14, 2010)

Wow. I think terryo is right; have you checked the temps lately? Does she have a warm side and a cool side and hides in both so she can thermoregulate?


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 14, 2010)

You need to figure out what is different, are you using the same substrate? Looks like your temps are the same. So it's the substrate? Or that mesh. Maybe you need to get rid of the top?


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## Laura (Mar 14, 2010)

New place, scary. Give her time and plenty of places to hide and not feel like prey..


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## Meg90 (Mar 14, 2010)

Did you have nice weather these past couple of days when she was being such a nut? Mine can get antsy on nice days. They can feel it, the same way they do on icky, rainy days.

How tall are the sides that she can reach the screen? If they are low, she probably feels exposed.


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## brianfurtado (Mar 15, 2010)

The height of the table is 8". The substrate was nice and low, but she was flipping herself because she was trying to get out and overextending her body and losing balance. I raised the substrate (which is the same I've always used), so she's higher up but harder to flip, which my main concern right now. After letting her run around the house for 30 minutes or so, I put her back in and she went straight into her hide and has been there for the last 12 hours (overnight)... Taking the mesh top off is not an option as I have a cat and can't risk it...

As far as the weather, yes it has been unseasonably nice this week but on Sunday it was cold and rainy.


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## Stephanie Logan (Mar 15, 2010)

Is she still acting panicked today?

Do you think your kitty may have climbed up there and taunted Chloe through the screen when you weren't around, so that now she's afraid that "Sylvester" is coming back with a chainsaw like he threatened to do?


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## brianfurtado (Mar 15, 2010)

She's much more calm today... She came out, ate slowly but ate everything, and then basked herself in the warmest spot. Now She's wide awake but in her hide, perhaps cooling a bit. When I took her out yesterday, I decided to let the cat 'investigate'... I had kept them so separated before that maybe it was time they became more aware of each other. The cat never batted or tried to bite Chloe, just sniff. In fact, at several points, Bam Bam (my kitty) laid down next to the tort and allowed Chloe to climb on him somewhat.


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## GBtortoises (Mar 15, 2010)

Based on the photos I would say that the enclosure is small for the size tortoise that is in it. 
Additional heat and bright lights make a tortoise become more active. More than likely your tortoise has become more active because of a more constant heat and very bright lights in a smaller area. That's not a bad thing, but the tortoise should somehow have a larger area to exercise it's increased activity level.
The weather outside has very little if any effect on a tortoise kept indoors if it is away from natural light, temperature or humidity changes. If you are providing correct light duration, heat and humidity within the enclosure then there should be little or no influence from an outside (within the room), or outdoor source. If the tortoise is exposed to outside daylight duration and somehow to temperature and humidity changes that is a different story. They can only sense changes in what they are exposed to, not what is on the other side of the wall.
The long hiding period after being out running around could be stress related due to sudden change from percieved freedom to sudden enclosed confinement again. It could also be due to temperature and light intensity change. Increased light intensity (percieved as bright mid-day sun) or increased or decreased temperatures outside of the normal activity range.


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## Meg90 (Mar 15, 2010)

I beg to differ GB. On overcast, rainy days, my tortoises all sleep late, eat less, and hide more. They can feel a pressure system the same way we can, ever had a sinus headache because of an impending storm?

I think she was upset about the change, and that, combined with the nice weather made her want to "travel" to another spot. Hard to do that, when you are in a secure enclosure.

I would cut down her roaming time in the house, (actually IMO its not a good idea at all) and just let her acclimate to her new enclosure. Something that I find that helps is offering a bit of favorite food when my torts get really agitated. My adult male gets in these fits during the day, where he literally RUNS around his enclosure, making a giant mess because he will go through water dish, and left over food no problem. On those such occasions, I usually put down some mazuri, or a small pile of spring mix and get his attention by saying his name. It works for me, and Nigel was WC so I know he misses being able to roam larger distances etc. 

I'm glad she's feeling better. Oh--I would also go to the craftstore and get a plant for her, the kind with a big plastic stem? And just shove that into the substrate. She will have fun hiding underneath it, and if she's bored, digging it up. I find the tortoises like them better when they are movable.


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## brianfurtado (Mar 15, 2010)

Just came home from work to check on her... She's much more active and starting to claw again. As far as the size of enclosure, it is literally twice as large as the glass vivarium I had her in, so she's actually got more space... but the extra heat may make sense. The amount of light is the same but the shallower depth may have affected her perception... I'l try turning one heat lamp off and see what happens...


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## GBtortoises (Mar 15, 2010)

They may very well do so, but if they do it's because they have some type of visual or atmospheric signal from an outside source as in light, air, temperature or all. Yes, while they probably do feel some form of atmospheric pressure when they are exposed, it's very doubtful that it has any much effect on them when indoors in a captive, controlled environment, unless that captive environment becomes exposed to it like opening a window in the room would do.
Sinus headaches are not related to impending storms at all. They're caused by sinus inflamation or infection, usually associated with dry air conditions and/or allergies. Unfortunately I am well versed because I have been on prescription medication for severe sinus headaches going on two years now. Mine are sometimes to the point that it blurs my vision. Actually, the longer that I am outdoors in humid air the pressure begins to go away. Unfortunately, I spend much of my time working indoors in a very dry, sometimes dusty environment. Doesn't matter if there is a storm outdoors or not, because I am indoors in a captive, controlled environment my body reacts to that environment. Same as a tortoise.
A tortoise kept solely indoors, with artificial light, temperature, humidity and other factors is not influenced by outdoor sources unless it has exposure to them in some form. 

I agree with not allowing a tortoise to roam the house, especially this time of year when many areas of the country still has cold, damp conditions. No house is perfectly sealed (and shouldn't be) so there can easily be low lying drafts from under doorways, cold floors and other hazards that we people cannot necessarily feel or immediately recognize. 

Tortoises don't "roam" without a reason. Meg, your male does it because he is just that, a male, he's doing what comes naturally it's not because he's throwing a "fit", he's doing so because he is instinctually patrolling his territory searching for potential mates and would be male intruders. You get his attention by saying his name? Seriously? You don't think the attention has anything to do with the tortoise associating the sight of your hand with food? Or the food itself? I can scream at the top of my lungs and not one of my nearly 100 tortoises will budge, until they see me. Then they instantly come running! No matter how much people want to try inject human emotion, which is based around acceptance and affection, captive tortoises think of us as one thing and one thing only. The source of their food. 
If you don't believe me take your tortoise outdoors, set it down in the grass, step back out of sight, call it's name all you want, as loud as you want and see which way it goes when you're not in it's line of vision. 


*brianfurtado*-The enclosure that you purchased is a really nice, well built enclosure but I still think too small for the size tortoise that is in it. The species that you is only going to grow larger too. I believe that the vendor offers (or soon will be offering) extension kits for it. A tortoise that is kept in an enclosure too small will often pace relentlessly back and forth almost non-stop most of the day. In some cases tortoises will become more and more agitated the more that they pace against a solid barrier. Especially males who would have a much larger territory to cover than a female. There is no stopping the instinctual drive. The "cure" is space, as much space as possible. Obstacles are good features in an enclosure large enough because it gives them something to go around, over and under. Constructive activity is always good. But taking away floorspace in a smaller enclosure is not productive at all.


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## goodsmeagol (Mar 15, 2010)

I think my Russian is nearly deaf, he could care less about sound. But as GB said, he sees me, he comesa-runnin! Now I feel so bad that if he ever does come running, I offer him food, as to not disappoint him...
Sometimes if I walk past the cage, he will turn and walk over to the closet area and try to climb up the wall of his bin.


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 15, 2010)

I have always wondered why my tortoises never responded when I called them like other people say theirs do. No mater how much or loud I called out to them...nothing...that was how I learned I was the Food Goddess and the Food Goddess only. I stopped anthropomorphizing a long time ago...and I have to this very day a really hard time not throwing food at anybody who looks at me as I walk by, I do throw stuff at my neighbor but that's another story...


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## N2TORTS (Mar 15, 2010)

Meg90 said:


> Did you have nice weather these past couple of days when she was being such a nut? Mine can get antsy on nice days. They can feel it, the same way they do on icky, rainy days.
> 
> * Meg that is soooooo true ... its 79 today and the torts were all over the place early this am!
> They Knew!


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## brianfurtado (Mar 15, 2010)

I've made some modification which had almost instant results...

1) Firstly, I moved the tort table from down low, to up higher on a shelving rack. My roommate noticed that when I was away, the cat would jump on top of the table and watch the tort... perhaps that agitated Chloe to the point where she wanted to run away?

2) I changed her substrate from forrest floor (cypress mulch) to kale pellets. 

3) Enclosure size is unchanged. Although I fully understand that a tort her size may be better off in a larger table I can't see this as being the immediate issue that caused her agitation. Her vivarium that I had her in for the past month was, literally, almost half the size and was glass. The vivarium she was in at the pet shop was even smaller than that - about a third of the table she's in now and shared it with another tort... again, all in glass. The temps are the same gradient throughout, so I'm not sure if the size of the enclosure is the issue. Which leads to my next question/hypothesis:

Can a tort, whose grown up in a glass viv her whole life grow accustomed to 'seeing out' that when moved to an enclosed box, she feels trapped? When I apply that logic, it makes total sense. The fact that the only way she sees out is through the shallower top, she knows that's the only way to get out and she's trying... I may put her back in her viv temporarily until I find a more permanent and larger solution...


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## Stephanie Logan (Mar 15, 2010)

I knew it! It was the temperamental tabby torturing the timid tortoise!


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## ChiKat (Mar 15, 2010)

What are kale pellets?


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## tortoisenerd (Mar 15, 2010)

Cute enclosure, but I see some problems...sorry!

In my opinion the sides are way too short. Because she can reach the top when on her hind legs and it feels like she is close to getting out, she will keep trying. It even looks like she can see out. If they can see out they will want out! You letting her out to roam only intensifies the feeling. You need an enclosure such that you can have substrate 1-2 times the length of the tort plus the tort can be on its hind legs on any furniture and not reach the top (plus any room for growth of the tort). Over time she may settle down, or it may only get worse if my guess is right that she feels like she can get out so she keeps trying. I think if she doesn't settle down in the next couple weeks you will need to get a much higher enclosure. Distractions such as new hides, things to climb safely if you think she is up to it and you can supervise the first couple days (large rocks), etc, can help. You should have multiple hides in multiple temperature zones--I only read hide as in singular.

Side note: I don't believe in letting torts roam free in the house. Besides the hazards (cold floor, even carpets because they are not as warm as the enclosure, no hiding spots so they run around like crazy looking for a place to hide, hair/dust, etc), another big issue is that the tort feels freedom and then doesn't like being penned up again. They remember this freedom for quite awhile too. Similar to a tort that lives outside that is taken inside for winter instead of hibernating. 

Also, double check some reference info that your mesh isn't too fine that the UVB isn't getting through.

What are kale pellets? Never heard of them!

Also, do double and triple check the temperatures in different times of day. They do vary. Those low sides may also not hold heat as well, etc. An accurate thermometer is a must. I always like to remind people that even if their house thermostat stays the same, the tort enclosure temperature gradient will not.

Best wishes.


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 15, 2010)

Well, I never heard of kale pellets either, and they sound like something I wouldn't care for. If you can't keep them moist then you can't create the needed humidity for the tort.


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## brianfurtado (Mar 15, 2010)

Sorry, I meant Alfalfa pellets. I was thinking of her meal tomorrow and that's why I had kale on the brain... 

All great suggestions, so tomorrow I am off from work and I will see what happens and may change her into a larger table (bookcase) if need be... The only issue is getting the proper covering to protect against a very inquisitive kitten.

I have never really let her roam before... I let her yesterday out of frustration and it was for no more than 15 minutes if I recall correctly. As far as hides, she does have two. I also have several thermometers in the enclosure. One in the cooler hide (75F), one in the mid-area (85C) and I also have a Zilla Infrared Thermometer that I can point anywhere... Her basking side is 98-100F... I think this provides her with the necessary gradients to self-regulate, no?


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## Meg90 (Mar 15, 2010)

Get her off the alfalfa. They are terrible for torts. They can cause them to go splay legged because they offer little to no traction. They cant dig in them, they are 100% protein, so if ingested will screw with your diet, and the humidity is so low that with a 4 yr old tortoise, who is still growing, you're gonna have shell issues.

Alfalfa pellets are 1000000000000% bad, and an all together outdated care method.


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## brianfurtado (Mar 15, 2010)

And you see, she's been raised on alfalfa pellets her whole life. She's got strong legs and a smooth carapace. I went back to the pellets to see if that would help because she was raised on it. I may change that again based on your suggestion.


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## goodsmeagol (Mar 15, 2010)

I helped a friend build a lid for his enclosure to keep his cat out.
To allow all the UVB goodness to penetrate, this is what I did:
I used simple 2x2 (actually 1.5") and cut to length +1.5" for all 4 sides, then nailed together to create a frame.
with 1cm steal mesh found at any good home hardware store I staple gunned it to the frame. Then to smooth the edges, I finished with lengths of black duct tape to conceal all the wood. Worked well, took me 20 min to put together.


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## Meg90 (Mar 16, 2010)

Have you got proof that she is actually CB? Seen any hatching pics? Or pictures of her as a young animal?

The fact that she was raised on those pellets "her whole life" but has a completely smooth carapace sets the alarm bells a' ringing. That is down right impossible. Because the pellets offer no humidity which would cause some major pyramiding, AND if they were kept moist at all, would just mold. See what a catch 22 that is?

Who did you get her from again? Do they have breeding animals on the premises? Did you see eggs in the incubators? Hatchling pens? Actual pairs breeding?


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## brianfurtado (Mar 21, 2010)

Hey guys, just a status update... Chloe is much more calm now... The weather has turned so she is getting daily exercise outside. I switched the substrate to 60% topsoil and 40% playsand... She seems to like it and the odour is more pleasant... All is well again and I have my cute little tort back with all her normal personality traits... I will be investing in a larger tort table as soon as my handyman cousin can free up some time and help me build one.


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