# Selling hatchlings? Legal?



## tortoisetime565

What do you have to have in order to breed and sell hatchling tortoises? I'm kinda wanting to later on in life. But I'm not sure what you need to have. Legal wise. I didn't really know where to post this thread so I choose advanced topics... Lol


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## jaizei

Where are you located? What species do you have in mind? As a hobby or as a business?


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## Tom

There are federal laws regarding this and there are state laws. You must be in compliance with both. It is a tricky and confusing subject and even the people charged with enforcing the laws don't really know what to do about it. It how they "feel" that day. There are specific exceptions built into the federal law such that any hobbyist breeder should be safe, but then you have to check on your states law, if there even are any.


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## bouaboua

See Tom's answer above..............HAhahahahaha


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## tortoisetime565

jaizei said:


> Where are you located? What species do you have in mind? As a hobby or as a business?



Oklahoma. I'll have sulcatas and redfoots as well as Russians. And as a hobby. 




Tom said:


> There are federal laws regarding this and there are state laws. You must be in compliance with both. It is a tricky and confusing subject and even the people charged with enforcing the laws don't really know what to do about it. It how they "feel" that day. There are specific exceptions built into the federal law such that any hobbyist breeder should be safe, but then you have to check on your states law, if there even are any.



Okay. I would wanna spit as a kind of hobby. So do I have to get a permit? Or anything? A license?




bouaboua said:


> See Tom's answer above..............HAhahahahaha



Okay! Thanks! Lol


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## Saleama

For breeding those I think no as they are not indigenous breeds. Not sure about selling them. It varies by state. In California, for example, a business can not sell a baby turtle under 4 inches or a viable turtle egg. However, a person can sell them as long as the sale is not associated with a business. A business can sell them as long as they are sold for scientific or educational puposes just not as a pet.


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## TylerStewart

I talked to the "head guy" apparently, at the California Dept of Agriculture that is over this a few months ago (I wish I had got his name), and asked him how they defined "business" separate from hobbyist. He said if you are selling them, you are a business. That's their interpretation. The federal law allows "sales between turtle fanciers," whatever that means, but California's interpretation is that the "fanciers" need to be giving them (free) between each other because if they are selling them, it's a business. Doesn't matter that you sell one per year, he didn't care. 

Like Tom said, stuff like this can change every day depending on who is the one making the decisions. Most of them don't enforce it on tortoises, and only do on turtles. Many of them realize that it's a stupid law to begin with, so they don't enforce it at all. The big show in Pomona in January had turtles and tortoises 1-2" long all over the room openly for sale and nobody cared. 

They had intercepted a baby tortoise I shipped to California and returned it to me, and in trying to figure out their reasoning, that's what I was told. 

The box that I had shipped it in was literally going to a school teacher for a classroom pet, but he said since I didn't have documentation that it was going to a teacher, it wasn't allowed to come in (to the state). I asked what type of documentation he expected me to have in the box, and he said "documentation that it's going to a teacher" and ended the conversation. I shipped it again the next day directly to the school (instead of to the teacher) and it got thru fine.


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## cdmay

TylerStewart said:


> I talked to the "head guy" apparently, at the California Dept of Agriculture that is over this a few months ago (I wish I had got his name), and asked him how they defined "business" separate from hobbyist. He said if you are selling them, you are a business. That's their interpretation. The federal law allows "sales between turtle fanciers," whatever that means, but California's interpretation is that the "fanciers" need to be giving them (free) between each other because if they are selling them, it's a business. Doesn't matter that you sell one per year, he didn't care.
> 
> Like Tom said, stuff like this can change every day depending on who is the one making the decisions. Most of them don't enforce it on tortoises, and only do on turtles. Many of them realize that it's a stupid law to begin with, so they don't enforce it at all. The big show in Pomona in January had turtles and tortoises 1-2" long all over the room openly for sale and nobody cared.
> 
> They had intercepted a baby tortoise I shipped to California and returned it to me, and in trying to figure out their reasoning, that's what I was told.
> 
> The box that I had shipped it in was literally going to a school teacher for a classroom pet, but he said since I didn't have documentation that it was going to a teacher, it wasn't allowed to come in (to the state). I asked what type of documentation he expected me to have in the box, and he said "documentation that it's going to a teacher" and ended the conversation. I shipped it again the next day directly to the school (instead of to the teacher) and it got thru fine.




Tyler...this is exactly the kind of thing that makes us crazy. Talk to three different officials and you get three different opinions. What makes it even more annoying is when this happens at the various reptile shows.
A couple of years ago the Florida Wildlife Commission guys came to the Expo in Daytona and started hassling the turtle vendors for not having a 'land area' for the aquatic turtles they were displaying. Even though the vendors provided cork resting sites and the water levels were at most an inch or so for small turtles, the officials insisted that each and every container had a land area. When one well informed vendor (Paul Vander Schouw) showed these guys the the exception to this rule for displaying turtles temporarily during a sales event--_from their own regulations_--these officials said they didn't care what the rules said. They literally didn't care what their own laws specified and continued to write citations and warnings.


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## Tom

Saleama said:


> For breeding those I think no as they are not indigenous breeds. Not sure about selling them. It varies by state. In California, for example, a business can not sell a baby turtle under 4 inches or a viable turtle egg. However, a person can sell them as long as the sale is not associated with a business. A business can sell them as long as they are sold for scientific or educational puposes just not as a pet.



I was all set to correct you here when I saw Tyler's response. I believe that you have correctly interpreted the Federal law, but not the CA law.

Carl, Tyler, everyone else,

We are in dire times on our country right now. Our "officials" regularly usurp and abuse power. ALL of them. Not just one side or the other. There is just example after example. Enough is enough already. This is supposed to be a "free" country... How does either Tyler's or Carl's experience not constitute tyranny? This sort of lawlessness, and bullying cannot be allowed to continue.


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## TylerStewart

Another thing they've done regularly is targeting vendors.... If they were going to come to a show and "bust" everyone that had baby tortoises at their booths, they would be busting 1/3 of the vendors in the room, but instead, they pick and choose, maybe bust one or two "big ones" to set an example and leave the show. Pete at Waterland was busted in Sacramento with an (initially) $2,200 fine (or something like that) for selling baby turtles, while other vendors in the room had turtles they weren't busted for. He went to court over it, someone said the judge was laughing that they had written him a fine for selling baby turtles. It just shows the inconsistency. It has the ability to ruin someone's day or week or month, if not life, and almost none of them could tell you why. 

It should never be the government's "opinion" on anything. While I think California is the worst, the same things happened to me when I was pulling permits for a construction project here in Nevada, you'll ask a question "can I do this, or can I do that?" and they think about it and tell you no, when you're almost sure the law says yes. I asked for a reference where the building code says "no," and after playing around on his computer and coming up with nothing, he says they just shut someone else down for the same thing and tells me to scram. I eventually did the research, found what I was looking for, jumped ahead of him in the line of authority (had to schedule a meeting with his boss a week ahead of time) and with the building code printed on paper in my hand, I got what I was wanting to do accomplished. Point being, they think that their job is to "decide" when it's not. Their job is to know the building code (or turtle/tortoise laws) and apply them evenly, whether that's good or bad for the common folk, it should at least be consistent.


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## Saleama

Every time I have bought one at a show, I was asked which baby I would like to rehome or adopt. I am not sure how this circumvents any law, but I assume that if you are not directly spitting in the face of authority than you are ok? Not a single animal I have brought home has been over 4 inches, the water turtles I've purchased were not even 1 inch, lol. At any rate, the laws are not biblical text and should not be subject to interpretation. Apparently though, they are black and white yet grey all over. The California code, which just happens to be the one I read, states a business can not sell... yet it fails to properly define a business. For one clown to claim that if you are selling you are a business is the height of arrogance and power hungry stupidity. By that logic, if you hold a garage sale you are a business. If you sell something on e-bay, you are a business. Clearly this is a case of someone being allowed to do what they wish as long as they can pound it into the mold of the regulations.
At any rate, I plan on attending the Reptile show in Arlington Texas tomorrow morning and I am going to purchase a pet turtle that is under 4". Let's see what happens, lol.


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## TylerStewart

By definition, calling a sale an "adoption" is one way around it, but again, it's up to interpretation. In probably 2009 I was set up at a show in Salt Lake City, UT and the Utah Fish & Game guys showed up and started to write a ticket to a vendor in the front of the room for selling tortoises smaller than 4" size. Rumor spread within 5 seconds that they were there busting people. I was in the rear, across from Waterland who had baby turtles. I took all my prices off my cages, had big fat "display only, not for sale" signs all over. WLTubs had "sales for educational purposes only" all over his cages already, and they came and ticketed both of us. I argued that I was showing my babies to line up buyers for them once they hit 4" size. He basically said "I'm not stupid, here's your court date," tossed the ticket down and then went and wrote one for WLTubs also. There was no dollar amount, I was supposed to come back to Utah and go to court for it. He may have been right (that he knew what I was doing), but he didn't "catch" me selling anything or trying to sell anything. I could have been there displaying them only and I still would have been ticketed. 

The ticketed vendors after a few weeks we all got letters from them that basically said "hey guys, we apparently lost your citation numbers, but we have your business cards and we know you did something wrong, so if you could call us and explain what happened, we can take it from there." I don't _believe_ they got any calls from any of us


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## tortadise

Dan said:


> Similar question (feel free to move to a new thread): I've noticed with the radiated tortoises for example that people will do in-state sales only or require a permit for interstate sales. As a seller, what responsibility do you have for checking where the torts are going to end up? Are there straw buyers who then transfer to out of state folks? As a buyer are you ever required to show that you bought the animals intrastate and therefore don't have to have a permit? For simplicity's sake, let's stick to federal law only.


Radiata are covered under the endangered species act. The Lacey act forbids the animal in commercial purposes(being sold) to cross state lines because that encompasses out of state laws and then goes to another state and another and so on. So then it becomes federal. Whoever does not posses a CBW for that animal cannot purchase it if they are out of selling state. If it's sold in state then transferred out of state by purchaser it's ok. But that person has to be resident of the state is was sold in. Transportation doesn't mean it's commercial. You can cross state lines all you want with your own radiated, or Galapagos.


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## dmmj

Federal law trumps state law, Feds say no business can sell a turtle or tortoise under 4 inches, back yard breeders can, check state laws regarding animals over 4 inches.


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## Tom

dmmj said:


> Federal law trumps state law, Feds say no business can sell a turtle or tortoise under 4 inches, back yard breeders can, check state laws regarding animals over 4 inches.



That's not right David. CA is more stringent than Federal law and in CA we must abide by state laws.


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## TylerStewart

Yeah, that is incorrect... A federal law would come into play if there was no state law that was more strict, but if the feds don't address something and a state does, the state law becomes "the law." Like a minimum wage law, the federal govt has a nationwide minimum wage, but some states are higher than that, so within the state, the state law (because it's a higher wage) is the law. A state would be unable to set a lower (than federal) rate within the state.

In my experience, CA doesn't allow anyone to sell baby tortoises or turtles because by selling them you become a business (at least the guy I was talking to said that). The federal law at least allows the hobbiest to maybe sneak past that, at least in the law. Of course in both cases it depends on which side of the bed the enforcer woke up on. In most cases, neither group has the manpower to enforce it. California kinda tries to monitor animals shipping in to the state thru FedEx and UPS, but they don't get off their rear ends and enforce it at most of the pet stores or trade shows.


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## Tom

tortadise said:


> Radiata are covered under the endangered species act. The Lacey act forbids the animal in commercial purposes(being sold) to cross state lines because that encompasses out of state laws and then goes to another state and another and so on. So then it becomes federal. Whoever does not posses a CBW for that animal cannot purchase it if they are out of selling state. If it's sold in state then transferred out of state by purchaser it's ok. But that person has to be resident of the state is was sold in. Transportation doesn't mean it's commercial. You can cross state lines all you want with your own radiated, or Galapagos.



According to the lawyer who does everyone's CBW permits, radiata and Galops can be given away or given on breeding loans across state lines with no CBW permits. They just can't be SOLD across state lines. They can be sold as many times as a person wants within a state. It is also legal for a person to buy and bring either of these two species into a state on their CBW permit and then resell them within that state to someone without a CBW.


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## tortadise

That's correct Tom. Gifting is not considered a commercial transaction. Quite a few people do this with breeding loans on Galapagos and radiated.


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## enchilada

Tom said:


> According to the lawyer who does everyone's CBW permits, radiata and Galops can be given away or given on breeding loans across state lines with no CBW permits. They just can't be SOLD across state lines. They can be sold as many times as a person wants within a state. It is also legal for a person to buy and bring either of these two species into a state on their CBW permit and then resell them within that state to someone without a CBW.


if i want to buy one without CBW, can I ask the seller to send the tort to me as "gift", then wire the amount of money seller want and states as "gift" too?


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## tortadise

enchilada said:


> if i want to buy one without CBW, can I ask the seller to send the tort to me as "gift", then wire the amount of money seller want and states as "gift" too?


No not really. That's still purchasing the animal unfortunately. If caught you wouldn't like the repercussions.


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## Tom

enchilada said:


> if i want to buy one without CBW, can I ask the seller to send the tort to me as "gift", then wire the amount of money seller want and states as "gift" too?



This would not be legal in my estimation as the sender is receiving money for the tortoise.


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## Turtlepete

Tom said:


> This would not be legal in my estimation as the sender is receiving money for the tortoise.



Something I've always thought would be pretty funny, assuming your buying an ESA animal from someone you know that say lives across state lines. They send you the tort….and a box of flowers….and you pay them handsomely specifically for that box of flowers. Write a check that specifically says "for the beautiful roses". Haha. I don't think I would actually do this, but technically it wouldn't be breaking the law. They wouldn't be receiving money for the tortoise, just the flowers, haha.


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## Tom

Turtlepete said:


> Something I've always thought would be pretty funny, assuming your buying an ESA animal from someone you know that say lives across state lines. They send you the tort….and a box of flowers….and you pay them handsomely specifically for that box of flowers. Write a check that specifically says "for the beautiful roses". Haha. I don't think I would actually do this, but technically it wouldn't be breaking the law. They wouldn't be receiving money for the tortoise, just the flowers, haha.



Sounds like a great plan. You go first!


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## tglazie

The thing I find most idiotic about the four inch law is that it encourages large chains like Petco and Petsmart to sell wild caught animals. They should simply disallow chain stores from selling turtles and tortoises completely, allowing only private breeders and mom and pop companies to sell their animals. 

T.G.


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## Tom

tglazie said:


> The thing I find most idiotic about the four inch law is that it encourages large chains like Petco and Petsmart to sell wild caught animals. They should simply disallow chain stores from selling turtles and tortoises completely, allowing only private breeders and mom and pop companies to sell their animals.
> 
> T.G.




The thing I find most idiotic about it is that it protects no one from anything. Just another example of government oppression of the population. Don't think its oppressive? Talk to Pete from Waterland tubs.


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## Cowboy_Ken

The 4" law was I acted to stop young children from placing red ear sliders in their mouths. The logic being this size prohibits this from happening thereby stopping salmonella poisoning. The fun part is the study used for this finding indicated that far more children were poisoned by drinking the turtles water!


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## Tom

Cowboy_Ken said:


> The 4" law was I acted to stop young children from placing red ear sliders in their mouths. The logic being this size prohibits this from happening thereby stopping salmonella poisoning. The fun part is the study used for this finding indicated that far more children were poisoned by drinking the turtles water!



If a kid is going to put its mouth on a little turtle, why wouldn't the same unsupervised kid put its mouth on a 4" turtle. It has been demonstrated in decades of attempts to modify or eliminate this rule that the Government types do not care if it does or ever did make any sense. They were able to sneak it in under ridiculous false pretenses and now that they have this freedom taken away, they are not going to give it back. Instead they will keep taking additional freedoms until we collectively decide that we've had enough, as has happened in our history before.


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## Cowboy_Ken

I shall name my next keeper, “Chavez"!


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## Cowboy_Ken

Keeper tortoise that is.


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## turtlemanfla88

Hey guys in FLA we have a class 3 which allows you to sell turtles or tortoises. Also, you can get an aquaculture license which only covers turtles not tortoises. I hope one day we can get rid of the 4" law and put the accountability back on the parent or guardian who is buying the animal. If you get a chance go to myfla.com and go to wildlife commission and they are really good about breaking everything down. Now get this class 3 falls under FWC while aquaculture falls under department of Ag. I hope one day it all can fall under dept of ag.


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## Tom

turtlemanfla88 said:


> Hey guys in FLA we have a class 3 which allows you to sell turtles or tortoises. Also, you can get an aquaculture license which only covers turtles not tortoises. I hope one day we can get rid of the 4" law and put the accountability back on the parent or guardian who is buying the animal. If you get a chance go to myfla.com and go to wildlife commission and they are really good about breaking everything down. Now get this class 3 falls under FWC while aquaculture falls under department of Ag. I hope one day it all can fall under dept of ag.



You need a state license to sell a turtle or tortoise in FL? I didn't know that. How does that relate to the 4" federal law?


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## Turtlepete

Tom, you need a Class 3 personal pet permit. I have one to sell red foots. I still sell them under 4" though.


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## turtlemanfla88

Hey guys in FLA a group pushed the state to make strict laws on our natives. For example only ornate and desert box turtles are legal to sell. I asked a FWC officer once at one of the reptile shows I have a question for you that we can not sell any captive born native box turtles babies so, how did all of these breeder FLA box turtles that are producing all of these hatchlings get to all of these other states. His answer was I don't know. I wanted to say it hell of a long walk for these turtles to get there. I just picked up the new 2014-2015 FLA hunting regulations on page 28 it talks about turtles. Taking cooters, Escambia map turtles and snapping turtles from the wild is prohibited because of their similarity to Suwannee cooters, Barbour's turtles and alligator snapping turtle,respectively. The truth is I saw it with my own eyes and know others who had FWC think common snappers and FLA snappers hatchlings were alligator snappers. I bet very few if any could pass a turtle ID picture test. IT is sad, rumor has it this so called turtle group wants to have the state shut down all native turtles captive born babies does not matter. That means my spotteds would be outlaws because I know where there is suppose to be a native spotted turtle population. They are listed as a FLA native in many books. Also, they do not want to fully protect them because then they could not get grants to study them.


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## Star-of-India

I honestly don't think the ban on selling hatchlings was part of the beginning of a government conspiracy to take away the rest of our rights. Instead it grew out of the the the trend in modern parenting to protect kids from everything that might in anyway be deemed dangerous and as a result 'protect' kids from lots of interesting experiences. 

Parents hearing tales of salmonella from baby RES's and the spotlight on some unsavory turtle husbandry in the 70's, ie., the use of town sewer ponds and feeding offal just cast into these ponds set things up. So it was a public health effort, but like so many other regulations, inflexible and not really tackling the problem. 

Unfortunately it is very true that it's a lot harder to undo or revise such regulations once they're in place.


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