# Are some species more prone to pyramiding?



## Shelly (Jan 29, 2010)

Saw these 2 Torts for sale on craigslist Sulcata and Leopard for sale

Apparently they were raised from hatchlings by the same guy in the same way, and the Sulcata looks great, but the Leopard is badly pyramided. What's the deal?


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jan 29, 2010)

I don't know, but I think this may depend most on the environment you live on and how close it is to their natural heat/humidity levels. But other factors surely are how hard it is to maintain a specific torts diet and if certain one are harder to feed.

Wow yeah that Leopard is bad


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## gummybearpoop (Jan 29, 2010)

Star tortoises from Sri Lanka seem to be more prone to pyramiding.

In addition, some of the Psammobates Tentorius complex tend to have pyramided shells


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## Tom (Jan 29, 2010)

All the desert species I have raised seem to do it equally. I only learned about the humidity thing in 2007, so I used to raise them in very dry conditions. When I've raised other than desert species, I haven't had pyramiding problems.


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## Shelly (Jan 30, 2010)

Roachman26 said:


> All the desert species I have raised seem to do it equally.



How come I have never ever seen a California desert Tort with anything but extremely mild pyramiding?


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## -ryan- (Jan 30, 2010)

Shelly said:


> Roachman26 said:
> 
> 
> > All the desert species I have raised seem to do it equally.
> ...



I would say that some species are a bit more prone to it. For example, russians are from an arid region, and you rarely see russians with pyramiding. It usually only occurs when people keep them bone-dry. I have noticed that leopards tend to get it more than a lot of other species, and I have personally seen some large, old leopards that were pyramided even worse than the one pictured (shocking, I know), though they were living and breeding fine. I believe this has to do with the size/height of a leopard tortoise's shell. Tortoises that have lower, flatter shells (like russians and the desert tortoises) have less potential for pyramiding than the larger or taller tortoises such as leopards and stars. I feel that sulcatas often exhibit pyramiding because people misunderstand what it means to be a desert species of tortoise. People that keep them bone-dry are going to see heavy amounts of pyramiding. Red-footed tortoises are a good example of this too, because specimens that are kept at an appropriate humidity exhibit little or no pyramiding, whereas specimens that are kept in low humidity also show drastic amounts of pyramiding.

I think that with the proliferation of new information regarding substrate and humidity we will gradually see less and less pyramiding in all species that are kept in captivity.


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## Stephanie Logan (Jan 30, 2010)

The ad only has the Sulcata on it now.

Just as well, since pyramided tort photos make me cringe and run up to pet and apologize to Taco again.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 31, 2010)

The only species I know of from the wild that show 'natural' pyramiding [ and it's really not pyramiding ] is the Sri Lankan 'star' tortoise. There may be others as 'gummy...' suggested.. but not those 'commonly' kept in captivity.

Here's the kicker gang - ALL species seek out their own humidity NEEDS during the most vital growth term - the first year of growth! If that 'term' is not established correctly they will most-likely have carapace growth issues for a long time.. if not life!

The reason that Richard Fife has smooth sulcatas [ as an example ] is the way he "STARTS" his hatchlings.

The reason I have smooth 2-4+ year old redfoots is because of the way I start them.. they *drip* the first year of their lives! I keep their carapace wet virtually 24/7.. it's called PROPER CARE.. aka 'preventative maintenance' - caring for hatchlings is NOT "push-button"!!!

So I said all that to say this:

*NO!!!* WE.. have total control and responsibility how pyramided we allow them to be...

Terry K


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## Tom (Jan 31, 2010)

Shelly said:


> Roachman26 said:
> 
> 
> > All the desert species I have raised seem to do it equally.
> ...



I don't know why you haven't seen it, because I sure have.

Terry K has it right. None of them are prone to it if we do the right thing. I'd like if not a one ever pyramids again, and assuming our info is correct none of mine ever will. I'm looking for a hatchling to make sure we've got all the info right. Maybe, I'll wait a few months and just use my own hatchlings to prove out the theory of lack of humidity in early development causing pyramiding. My intention is to raise them exactly the same way I always have, except to keep them very humid and hydrated from hatchling on. If they turn out smooth, then I will have my answer.


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## gummybearpoop (Feb 1, 2010)

Roachman26 said:


> None of them are prone to it if we do the right thing.



I wouldn't say none of them because star tortoises from Sri Lanka and some of the Psammobates Tentorius complex have a natural tendency to pyramid. Almost all available pics of Psammobates Tentorius are of animals in the wild.


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## Redfoot NERD (Feb 1, 2010)

Well we have a statement taken out of context and an undefined term commonly used to describe.

Can we define pyramiding as *"un-natural carapace growth"*? Otherwise we'll have this nonsense going back-and-forth for who knows how long!

You didn't have to do this Norman.. come on guys.

Terry K


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## gummybearpoop (Feb 1, 2010)

True, I just want to state that some tortoises do have natural "pyramids" on their carapace. 

The majority of us may never see an alive Tent Tortoise, let alone own one. Sri Lankan Star Tortoises are frequently available.


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## -EJ (Feb 1, 2010)

Pyramiding is a physical characteristic and as such there probably is a genetic factor. I don't think it is species specific.


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## fifthdawn (Feb 1, 2010)

Hmm, for most tortoises pyramidding causes unhealthy or porous growth in the structure of the shell even at a cellular level. If star tortoises even pyramid in the wild, it's very possible that they are genetically prone to pryamiding but in the good sense. I this I'd we take a cross section of a pyramided star tortoise shell and compared it to another tortoise, I think the stAr tortoise shell might not evenness be porous and would look perfectly healthy as if it wasn't pyramided

it's just a theory though.


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## -EJ (Feb 1, 2010)

This is so untrue. You might want to check out some of the posts on pyramiding.

Again, you can have any tortoise pyramid and it not having MBD (which is suggested you the porous shell...)



fifthdawn said:


> Hmm, for most tortoises pyramidding causes unhealthy or porous growth in the structure of the shell even at a cellular level. If star tortoises even pyramid in the wild, it's very possible that they are genetically prone to pryamiding but in the good sense. I this I'd we take a cross section of a pyramided star tortoise shell and compared it to another tortoise, I think the stAr tortoise shell might not evenness be porous and would look perfectly healthy as if it wasn't pyramided
> 
> it's just a theory though.


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## gummybearpoop (Feb 1, 2010)

-EJ said:


> Pyramiding is a physical characteristic and as such there probably is a genetic factor. I don't think it is species specific.




I think with the Sri Lankan Star Tortoises it is not species specific, but I am not too sure about some of the subspecies of Tent Tortoises. Perhaps Ed, you have seen many more Tent Tortoises than I have. I think the Kalahari Tent Tortoise and one of the other Tent Tortoise subspecies, always seems to be pyramided. I think in the case with these relatively unknown species, it is genetic.


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## Redfoot NERD (Feb 1, 2010)

See.. they've done exactly what I predicted they would do.. and totally ignored a definition of pyramiding - from a "captive raised/kept" stand point.. which I understood this thread to be about?

They've taken an "extreme/exception" an elaborated on it to the point of debating "genetics"?!

Yes there is a difference between "pyramiding" and the common [ genetically ] pyramided-look of some tortoises. 

Was that what your question was about Shelly?

Terry K

Elegans [ Douglas Beard ] has a perfectly smooth adult female Sri! Are her 'genetics' scrambled or is she 'normal'? Typical extreme/exception.


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## gummybearpoop (Feb 1, 2010)

Redfoot NERD said:


> Elegans [ Douglas Beard ] has a perfectly smooth adult female Sri! Are her 'genetics' scrambled or is she 'normal'? Typical extreme/exception.




I have seen pics of Doug's animal too. I have seen lots of other Sri Lankans that are smooth shelled as well as seeing lots of pics with pyramided shells. There are some Sri Lankan pics on turtletracker.com that has some locality specific pics of a few Sri Lankan Stars.


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## -EJ (Feb 1, 2010)

Look up the publishings of Victor Loehr. He's got some good photos of how variable all the South African species can be.

How can you be certain it is not behaviorial?



gummybearpoop said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> > Pyramiding is a physical characteristic and as such there probably is a genetic factor. I don't think it is species specific.
> ...


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## gummybearpoop (Feb 1, 2010)

It could be. I haven't seen too much variation in the Kalahari Tent Tortoises. Do you have pics?


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## Redfoot NERD (Feb 1, 2010)

gummybearpoop said:


> Redfoot NERD said:
> 
> 
> > Elegans [ Douglas Beard ] has a perfectly smooth adult female Sri! Are her 'genetics' scrambled or is she 'normal'? Typical extreme/exception.
> ...



I asked a specific question gentleman: Are her 'genetics' scrambled or is she 'normal'? All you've done so far is repeat yourself. Is there any accountability by your statements or is a scientific approach to tortoise husbandry STILL a fallacy? According to EJ awhile back "..... hard to prove". [ from a thread on the effects of humidity ]

A combination of both is a fair answer.

Thank you...

Terry K


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