# Feeding daily?



## jskahn (Oct 14, 2014)

Here comes a debate. I have been keeping and breeding tortoises and turtles for over 50 years. I feed almost every day, Except, during cooler weather, or of course hibernation. It seems that my view is not the one shared by many others. I have been reading for years, that keepers feed every other day, or so. From what I have seen, there is almost always food available in the wild. Of course during the cold winter, the food is scarce, but they hibernate. Other than that, there are almost always greens,or insects etc. available on land or in the water. I keep my Adult Stars, Leopards, and Sulcatas outside year round. They have heated dog houses in the cold weather, here in Arizona. Most days over 60 degrees, the stars, and sulcatas, and usually the female leopards, graze some on the yard. All my pond turtles,pretty much stop eating during the winter. On warmer days in late fall, and early spring, they will occasionally eat some of the Mazori I feed the goldfish. In the 25 years I have been in AZ, the only problem I have ever had with any abnormal shell growth, was one summer when I feed the pond on Koi food. I had 5 small Het Red ears, amongst the other adult turtles, and their shells grew irregular. I then realized that Koi are too vegetarian. I never saw what people feel is the problem with almost daily feedings.Only in extreme weather would they not eat in the wild. On many forums, people feel bad, not feeding their pet turtles daily. On young inside turtles and tortoises, I have never let them go with out daily feeding. 
I guess now is the chance to tell me I am wrong, but with generations of well formed turtles and tortoises,I feel comfortable with daily feeding, unless the weather is extreme.


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## Maro2Bear (Oct 14, 2014)

Whew, long question.  i would go along with the view that turtles in the wild have the option to eat hourly, daily, every other day, pretty much when and what they want. I vote for making food available all the time, let my tortoise and turtles decide.


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## G-stars (Oct 14, 2014)

I agree they should have access to food daily. After all they do in the wild. 


— Gus


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## Yvonne G (Oct 14, 2014)

jskahn said:


> I guess now is the chance to tell me I am wrong, but with generations of well formed turtles and tortoises,I feel comfortable with daily feeding, unless the weather is extreme.




Hi Joe:

I'm going to take this opportunity to tell you that you're never to old to learn new stuff. I had been keeping, raising and hatching turtles and tortoises for over 30 years when I first joined the forum, and while I never had a sick tortoise or lost any to bad care, I can tell you that I learned so much from the people on this forum! I think it's a very good idea to approach the subject with a clean slate and an open mind.

Having said all that, I must agree with you. A wild turtle doesn't say, "Let's see now...Hm-m-m-m...I think I remember eating yesterday, so today I'd better not eat." If the food is available he eats. He goes out looking for food every day. And he eats.

I feed my tortoises daily, especially the younger ones. Maybe the older ones get branches off the mulberry tree or grapevine instead of an all out meal, but they get something to eat every day.


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## Tom (Oct 14, 2014)

I agree that they should be fed daily, _*BUT*_ they need to be fed the _*RIGHT*_ foods and also get plenty of exercise in large suitable enclosures. As long as those two extremely important caveats are met, I see no reason to starve them. Hydration and calcium supplementation is important too. As is artificial UV for indoor tortoises.

In the past I raised some sulcatas with the whole low food, low nutrition, skip feeding days technique in a failed attempt to prevent pyramiding. It didn't work to prevent pyramiding at all, but I did end up with stunted, hungry, pyramided tortoises. Theses tortoises all started growing at "normal" rates, even after years of me underfeeding them due to the bad advice I followed. The males are now over 100 pounds at 16 years old and the female is around 45-50 pounds.

Sorry. No debate here. I think you are right. I would like to see lots more pics of your tortoises and enclosures though.


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## wellington (Oct 14, 2014)

Not sure where you found all,your info that made you think you were going to get a debate here. Most to everyone here feeds daily and recommends feeding daily. If my tortoises don't want to eat, that's up to them, but the food will always be there for them. Just an FYI, I have no where near the years in to tortoises as you, Tom or Yvonne.


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## Maggie Cummings (Oct 14, 2014)

Not only do I feed daily, but I give my big Sulcata a breakfast and later a snack of grape leafs and weeds at noon and a bedtime snack. I have a 4 yr old tortoise gets fed morning and night. My Hermanni only eats once a day, but that's her choice. I feed my box turtles every day too. I think any wild chelonian would eat daily even if it's just somebody else's poop...


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## pfara (Oct 14, 2014)

Ya know.. I asked this question recently to a couple of people. I feed my 1-1/2 year old reds daily; it's just a part of the routine that they like following. They seem intelligent enough to eat whenever they feel like it. I would notice days where the food is completely gone or when the piles have just been bulldozed around like children jumping in a pile of leaves. I'd have to agree with Tom: as long as what you feed are the right types of foods fed in the right proportions, I don't see why you can't feed daily. On the other hand, I also don't panic if I have a busy morning and don't have enough time to prepare anything that day.


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## Tom (Oct 14, 2014)

pfara said:


> On the other hand, I also don't panic if I have a busy morning and don't have enough time to prepare anything that day.



I have days like that. On those days the SA leopards and sulcatas all have orchard grass hay to eat, and the russians have weeds or leaves to nibble on or dried up leftovers from previous days if they want.


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## Alaskamike (Oct 14, 2014)

I'm certainly not as experienced as many here, but it seems to me that proper food in great variety just makes biological sense. My torts get fed daily , and by fed , I mean placed in front of a variety of foods they don't have in their outside enclosure. In their enclosures they have grass , weeds , a hibiscus bush , etc. but I still offer other stuff daily. 

Sometimes they eat like starved piglets , sometimes it's a light snack and they are off on their walkabouts. 

There is a biological mechanism called homeostasis. There are some complexities to it , buts in its most simplistic operation it basically is the body's attempt to get what it needs for optimum health. 

I know this will sound a bit weird, but when I feed my torts I do it in little piles; Mazuri, grass, purslane, mulberry leaves, hibiscus flower , etc. 

I set my torts in front of the stacks, and let them choose what to eat. And I've watched very closely. Right now I have 2 leopards, a 10 mo old Aldabra, and a 2 yo Sulcata. 
Every one of them varies what they chose to eat most of each day. 

Not recommending , just interesting to me.


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## jskahn (Oct 14, 2014)

Tom said:


> I agree that they should be fed daily, _*BUT*_ they need to be fed the _*RIGHT*_ foods and also get plenty of exercise in large suitable enclosures. As long as those two extremely important caveats are met, I see no reason to starve them. Hydration and calcium supplementation is important too. As is artificial UV for indoor tortoises.
> 
> In the past I raised some sulcatas with the whole low food, low nutrition, skip feeding days technique in a failed attempt to prevent pyramiding. It didn't work to prevent pyramiding at all, but I did end up with stunted, hungry, pyramided tortoises. Theses tortoises all started growing at "normal" rates, even after years of me underfeeding them due to the bad advice I followed. The males are now over 100 pounds at 16 years old and the female is around 45-50 pounds.
> 
> Sorry. No debate here. I think you are right. I would like to see lots more pics of your tortoises and enclosures though.


As far as pix goes, according to Yvonne. you are never to old to learn, But I am really computer ignorant, and can't download my pix on the forum. I know how to email them, and have been able to download them on some forums, but had a problem here. To answer the question, where have I heard not to feed daily, was mainly on Austins Turtle Forum. As I had said,many of the people have one or a few pet turtles, and are always feeling bad about not feeding them daily. The members keep telling these people that it makes them grow too fast, and is not natural. I never wanted to voice my opinion. I guess I should have, but I didn't want to step on some" experts" toes. I was fairly new to the group.Thinking back, I guess I should have.


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## pfara (Oct 14, 2014)

I've read the warnings on fast growth, too. Honestly, it seems kinda blown out of proportion to me. I treat all my RF equally and they're all hatched around the same month. Yet, one is freakishly humongous for his age while the smallest seems to be "the norm". All have smooth, even growth, alert, and active. Despite the "fast growth", my guy seems healthy and eats whenever he chooses.


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## Tom (Oct 14, 2014)

I wish you would have spoken up too.

About pics: I am pretty ignorant when it comes to all things computer too, but the pic thing is pretty easy. If I may: Go to http://tinypic.com . Click on choose file, pick your pic, then upload. When its done it will give you several choices of lines of code. Copy the IMG code, then paste it into a forum post. Its really pretty easy. No harder than making a post here. And tinypic is hassle free, and just plain free. No fees or accounts. No giving out any personal info. Just a free easy to use site.


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## jskahn (Oct 14, 2014)

What is copy and paste? How do you get it to a forum? What is the IMG code? I am going to try to go to tiny pic
Thanks


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## jskahn (Oct 14, 2014)

To prove how computer ignorant I am, I can't even figure out how to fill out the first page. Sorry


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## Kathy Coles (Oct 14, 2014)

I also feed my red foot daily. Quantity is another matter. She will eat what she wants of the spring mix and then leave it. BUT mazuri is another matter. I think if I put the entire 2 pounds in front of her it would be consumed or she would die trying. In 2 years she has grown from 4 inches to over 8. So it is tough love. Today is veggies and that's it young lady.


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## keepergale (Oct 14, 2014)

I can't imagine not feeding every day. (Neither can my tortoises)
When the timer turns their light on in the morning they head to the feeding tiles within minutes. If breakfast isn't ready they begin pacing back and forth until fed.


Sent from my iPhone using TortForum


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## smarch (Oct 15, 2014)

I feed every day, I guess I understand the not everyday argument because isn't that a common argument with snakes, and feeding too often shortens the lifespan? (I'm no snake expert, I just remember reading that) But tortoises and turtles? No way, Franklin would throw a fit and then refuse to do anything if he missed a day (and unfortunately on a few occasions that has happened so I actually know). Russian Torts sleeping through the day is not healthy! so in my opinion witnessing that said it all. As long as they're fed proper diet they can eat all they want. Maybe its different with protein, I mean i'm sure Red Foot owners don't feed protein every day (again no expert, just something I've gathered by reading). Tortoises are food monsters, if you don't feed them as often as they want they will find things that they can eat even if its not food ... in fact even if you do feed them often they may still decide to eat whatever then want (The recent Frankie tales involving a sock!)
My opinion changes if they're in an outdoor enclosure heavily planted, technically if its planted right you wouldn't need to "feed" at all since they could do it themselves. Though I still hear of people who's torts while outside will wait for the "real" food on a plate.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 15, 2014)

I'll engage you in a Private Conversation later after I've done my chores and put the garbage cans out to the curb. Don't have time right now. Putting up pictures is very easy, and I'll help you with the nomenclature. No sense in taking up space in this thread about posting pictures. Sorry I've run out of time to help you right now, but I promise...I'll come back to the subject in a couple hours.


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## johnsonnboswell (Oct 15, 2014)

I thought not feeding every day was for box turtles, not tortoises. Even so, if the foraging is good, they get fed what I find when I find it. The tortoises prefer two smaller meals daily.


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## phebe121 (Oct 15, 2014)

My leopards i feed daily. And have food growing in there enclosure but the food i feed them last all day in there dish i feed my babies about 3 to 4 cups a food daily a long with fresh water everday and a soak evey other day


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## CindyWho4 (Oct 15, 2014)

I haven't had this RT long, but I had one for 11 years before...I didn't know not making food available daily was even a thing. Every day it was there. In the colder months, sometimes she'd only nibble at it, but it was there EVERY day.


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## Elohi (Oct 15, 2014)

I feed daily. I have little experience compared to the experience of many of you who have been keeping tortoises longer than I've been alive. (And I'm 35) But I am pretty intelligent and hypervigilant in the care of my tortoises. I'm also always learning and always exploring new ideas and theories. After all, it is my belief that learning, changing, and adapting is what we are all here to do.


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## tortdad (Oct 15, 2014)

I'm with you. My indoor Redfoots get fed every morning and something's an afternoon snack. My sulcata lives outside and feeds himself twice a day. He comes out of his night box and grazes around 7:30am and comes back out when the sun has set enough that the shadow from my 6' tall fence casts a shadow about 3/4 of the way across his pen. 


0.0.1 Redfoot (Spike)
0.0.1 Cherryhead Redfoot (Bruce Wayne)
1.0 Sulcata (Hal Jordan)


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## Tyanna (Oct 15, 2014)

I feed twice daily, once in morning, once in evening.  If the food isn't there at normal times (usually when I get home late and it's husband's job to feed him ) he will start nibbling at his substrate and make quite a mess until he's fed.


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## Janine (Oct 20, 2014)

I feed my tortoise everyday, I don't understand why people advise to feed them every 2/3 days, I think its rather unfair on them, this way my tortoise gets more nutrients. I feed him little and often. If I worry about giving him too much protein or phosphorus I can feed him something like iceberg lettuce just so it fills him up and keeps him hydrated


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## Alaskamike (Oct 20, 2014)

The concern over daily feeding stems from 2 things - one it takes torts time to digest their food, and get the most out of it. Pooping out yesterday's meal to make room for today's might be too fast. I don't know about this one
But the bigger issue ( I believe ) has been the idea that too fast of growth in captive environments can lead to pyramiding and MBD. 
There is some good research that supports this. That slow steady growth is better for health. 
My belief has been that the more we can provide natural healthy variety , hydration, and natural grazing these issues will not surface. But this is not an invalid concern , especially in the larger fast growth species like Aldabras, Sulcata and Leopards.


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## Janine (Oct 20, 2014)

Yes I have heard this too, but I believe if you feed them very little but often its better than feeding them one full meal every few days


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## Alaskamike (Oct 20, 2014)

This is an article I found enlightening. Take it for what it's worth  
tortoises.
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html


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## zenoandthetortoise (Oct 20, 2014)

Alaskamike said:


> This is an article I found enlightening. Take it for what it's worth
> tortoises.
> http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html


Great info. Thanks mike


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## ZEROPILOT (Oct 21, 2014)

My RF eat in the morning and by late afternoon DEMAND some Hibiscus. Every day. Their growth has been very fast.


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## jskahn (Oct 21, 2014)

Thanks Mike, that is by far the best article on pyramiding I have read.


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## Tom (Oct 21, 2014)

Alaskamike said:


> The concern over daily feeding stems from 2 things - one it takes torts time to digest their food, and get the most out of it. Pooping out yesterday's meal to make room for today's might be too fast. I don't know about this one
> But the bigger issue ( I believe ) has been the idea that too fast of growth in captive environments can lead to pyramiding and MBD.
> There is some good research that supports this. That slow steady growth is better for health.
> My belief has been that the more we can provide natural healthy variety , hydration, and natural grazing these issues will not surface. But this is not an invalid concern , especially in the larger fast growth species like Aldabras, Sulcata and Leopards.




I have heard those theories proposed and illuminated by many, such as Andy the author of that link, who joined the forum here and had an 18 page argument that went nowhere. The problem is that all of those theories sound great and make so much sense on a cerebra level, but they don't pan out in reality. In reality, my fastest growers are also my smoothest and most vigorous within any of my groups. In reality, attempts to simulate what our human perception of what these tortoises endure in the wild, leads to pyramided, stunted tortoises. In reality, I have found ways that really work for anyone anywhere in the world to grow them smoothly and healthy. I'm not talking about theories of wild living. I'm talking about decades of hands on experience actually raising them in our typical captive environments. Attempting to simulate the wild does not work in our captive environments. It can work if you live in a mild climate similar to the area where a given species comes from and you set up and plant a big naturalistic enclosure, but it is not going to work in a glass tank in a living room in New Jersey.


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## tortadise (Oct 21, 2014)

I feed daily. Twice to even three times. Depending on species and temperature though. When it's very warm and they're most active they will get fed 3 times. But smaller portions. I won't dump a massive amount in and let them free for all,


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## zenoandthetortoise (Oct 21, 2014)

Tom said:


> I have heard those theories proposed and illuminated by many, such as Andy the author of that link, who joined the forum here and had an 18 page argument that went nowhere. The problem is that all of those theories sound great and make so much sense on a cerebra level, but they don't pan out in reality. In reality, my fastest growers are also my smoothest and most vigorous within any of my groups. In reality, attempts to simulate what our human perception of what these tortoises endure in the wild, leads to pyramided, stunted tortoises. In reality, I have found ways that really work for anyone anywhere in the world to grow them smoothly and healthy. I'm not talking about theories of wild living. I'm talking about decades of hands on experience actually raising them in our typical captive environments. Attempting to simulate the wild does not work in our captive environments. It can work if you live in a mild climate similar to the area where a given species comes from and you set up and plant a big naturalistic enclosure, but it is not going to work in a glass tank in a living room in New Jersey.



Speaking somewhat off the cuff, I don't find the "natural conditions are the healthiest" claims to be that compelling. Natural conditions are seldom optimal and it would stand to reason that optimal conditions (in terms of hydration, diet, and temperature) would promote optimal growth.
The article does raise the interesting idea that high humidity may hide MBD without addressing it. I've not seen any comparative X-rays, but this does seem straightforward to either confirm or deny.


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## Alaskamike (Oct 21, 2014)

Tom , 
I know I have not been a part of this historical humidity / hydration debate , and do not have the experience you and many keepers on the forum here have. 
There is no doubt that you and others have advanced health in tortoise care immeasurably in this area. I follow your advice in this area with all my torts. 
Having said that , however, my scientific brain is always searching for the " whys" and " how's" of biological mechanisms and experience has shown few issues are stand alone without influencing and complicating factors. 
Even when we have a ' eureka' moment in research , we always reserve a small doubt and skepticism that we don't know all there is to know and in fact might even be wrong ( God forbid . 
We know allot now about tortoise care unknown 5 yrs ago and I suspect 5 yrs from now we will know even more. One of the reasons I love torts so much are these mysteries and discovery. 
What I loved about that article was not so much the speculation on external causes of various forms of MBD but the scientific evidence and explanation of the internal forces going on. This I hope can be appreciated even if you disagree with any speculative conclusions drawn. 
I find in any metabolic process. Few things have totally isolated cause and effect. 
Food , hydration, heat, sunlight, exercise, stress, bullying and genetics all must have impacts. What , how much and in what combinations is all that we can investigate. 
That said , you've shown adequate hydration to be one of the keys. 
Sent from my iPhone


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## Tom (Oct 21, 2014)

zenoandthetortoise said:


> Speaking somewhat off the cuff, I don't find the "natural conditions are the healthiest" claims to be that compelling. Natural conditions are seldom optimal and it would stand to reason that optimal conditions (in terms of hydration, diet, and temperature) would promote optimal growth.
> The article does raise the interesting idea that high humidity may hide MBD without addressing it. I've not seen any comparative X-rays, but this does seem straightforward to either confirm or deny.



We agree completely.

I offered to have mine X-rayed and Andy declined. My offer was that if my high humidity raised tortoises had any problems that he was suggesting they would, I would pay for the Xrays myself and publicly eat my words. I asked the same of him. If my torts all demonstrated the healthy bone growth that I know they would, thereby proving _my_ assertions correct, then _he_ would pay for the X-rays and publicly admit his incorrect assumptions. He declined, apparently not willing to put his money where his mouth is. Instead he threw hissy fits and called people names for believing the evidence in front of their own eyes in their own homes, instead of believing in and following his speculative theories about what happens in the wild. His own friend joined him here on the forum and said as much. Frances is saintly in my eyes and made the brilliant suggestion that Andy and I both had items of value to add to the discussion. I agree with her.


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## Tom (Oct 21, 2014)

Alaskamike said:


> Tom ,
> Having said that , however, my scientific brain is always searching for the " whys" and " how's"...



As does mine my friend. Lets all keep learning. To me, and apparently as opposed to Andy, what happens daily in our enclosures is also offering pieces to the "why" and "how" puzzle. I think these pieces ought to be addressed, examined and weighted heavily in our discussions, since we are discussing captive raised tortoises after all.


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## Katherine (Oct 21, 2014)

I share your sentiment and feeding philosophy, like you we leave our tortoises outside year round with heated dog houses for thermoregulation in cooler months, so they have access to food and water every day and it's a RARE day they don't come out to eat (save estivation periods for the box turtles). I don't really understand why anyone would advise infrequent feedings, I fail to see a health benefit in withholding nutrients.


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## leigti (Oct 21, 2014)

I guess I am a really stupid mewbie. I have heard the theories about feeding every two or three days but I never knew there was a serious debate about it. I just thought the norm was to feed daily but not to get too worried if they skip a day or two for some unforeseen reason. When outdoors in the summer I let my Russian eat all the plants in the enclosure because they are tortoise safe. I give her cactus about once a week out there. I do supplement the box turtle with protein and fruits and vegetables.


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## leigti (Oct 21, 2014)

I think the feed every 2 to 3 days idea makes a lot of sense for carnivores. But not really for herbivores or omnivores for that matter.


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## Alaskamike (Oct 22, 2014)

Tom said:


> As does mine my friend. Lets all keep learning. To me, and apparently as opposed to Andy, what happens daily in our enclosures is also offering pieces to the "why" and "how" puzzle. I think these pieces ought to be addressed, examined and weighted heavily in our discussions, since we are discussing captive raised tortoises after all.


I agree. Especially important to realize that captive environments can never fully duplicate wild ones. In fact , many more of our " pets" would die of " natural" environmental impacts if we did. In the most vivid example you can look at hatchling survival rates. Many species have a 3-10% survival of hatchlings even in the best of conditions in nature. We lose one baby and feel we've done something wrong. 
So we walk a double edged sword. On the one hand we attempt to provide as close as possible the environments these creatures evolved to thrive in , on the other, we try to mitigate the dangers and deficits they would encounter in nature. It is a balancing act. I read somewhere if you want an easy pet - get a cat - not a tortoise. Hahaha . They LOOK easy, quiet, docile and simple. But we who care for them know the detail and effort needed to keep our shelled charges healthy


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## zenoandthetortoise (Oct 22, 2014)

Tom said:


> We agree completely.
> 
> I offered to have mine X-rayed and Andy declined. My offer was that if my high humidity raised tortoises had any problems that he was suggesting they would, I would pay for the Xrays myself and publicly eat my words. I asked the same of him. If my torts all demonstrated the healthy bone growth that I know they would, thereby proving _my_ assertions correct, then _he_ would pay for the X-rays and publicly admit his incorrect assumptions. He declined, apparently not willing to put his money where his mouth is. Instead he threw hissy fits and called people names for believing the evidence in front of their own eyes in their own homes, instead of believing in and following his speculative theories about what happens in the wild. His own friend joined him here on the forum and said as much. Frances is saintly in my eyes and made the brilliant suggestion that Andy and I both had items of value to add to the discussion. I agree with her.



Thanks for the backstory. That was a discussion I missed. Too bad it went that way. I'm all for hissy fits and name calling, but at the end of the day there's nothing like testing ideas. I've never seen a MBD X-ray of an animal that wasn't in obvious distress. It'd be interesting to see if there is a potential for hidden damage. 

Back to the OP regarding feeding, I find it helpful to define what "ideal conditions" would look like. Given that there are limiting factors, such as nutrients, calories, environment, water etc, ideal would seem to be eliminating all external limitations, so genetics alone determine both growth rate and size. 
This is a long winded way of saying that I obsess about environmental conditions, food variety and nutrients, but they always have food available.


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## Merrick (Oct 27, 2014)

But also in the wild their are a lot of factors that make them lose calories/nutrients such as extensive foraging I sugest that a big yard is great because then the torts are constantly moving wich is very good for them


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## Merrick (Oct 27, 2014)

Also some foods we give them are higer in nutrients


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## ChloeCrull (Nov 7, 2014)

Hi there, jskahn!


Personally, I provide my two Russian tortoises daily access to food. I usually make them a "salad" (a mix of thyme, rosemary, mustard or collard greens, kale, parsley, radicchio, and chopped of carrots) and every other day. This is only due to the fact that it takes my torts two days (or sometimes only one) to consume their food. If it dries up early, I will replace it immediately as well. Remember to give them a cuttlebone or sprinkle a calcium supplement onto their food at least twice a week!


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## xiaobochu (Nov 8, 2014)

MY two cents here.
I have bred tortoises for 10 years (not too much experience compared with Yvonne and Joe). I feed my tortoises 5 days a week. I do not feed them two days before I soak them. By using this way, I can keep all.my tortoises enclosures clean.


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## jskahn (Nov 9, 2014)

teen tort said:


> But also in the wild their are a lot of factors that make them lose calories/nutrients such as extensive foraging I sugest that a big yard is great because then the torts are constantly moving wich is very good for them


Honestly, that is something I didn't consider. I always keep my tortoises and turtles in very large enclosures, where they get plenty of exercise. For owners who don't give them the exercise they need, over feeding would be a problem. Although, in too small of an enclosure, feeding isn't the only problem.


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