# Mixing Species



## capedthespian (Jan 19, 2014)

This is one of the topics I have been barked at for most. I have had my Russians for years and they have been in captivity for even longer than that. I'm not sure if they are wild caught or not, but the point is that they have been in a good home for far longer than in the wild or in transit. I've been observing them since I got them and neither of them shows any sign of disease, bacterial, parasitic, fugal, or otherwise. Neither of them has shown any aggression towards the other or my CDT on the rare occasion that they see him. I have my smallest one now sharing an enclosure with a Sulcata hatchling. I am still constantly observing the two of them, and no problems have been incurred thus far. Is anyone in the same position as I am, or does everyone truly believe that inter species life cannot be sustained? Tortoises in the wild live with not only other reptiles, but mammals and birds as well.


----------



## Mgridgaway (Jan 20, 2014)

The main worry I would have comes down to size. That Sulcata and the CDT are much bigger (or going to be) than a russian, and that seems like more of a hazard to me than inter-mingling.


----------



## hunterk997 (Jan 20, 2014)

Russian tortoises don't encounter sulcatas or CDT's on the wild. So you are right in saying they encounter other animals, but not the ones you are forcing them to. If my reading is correct, sulcatas require a lot of humidity at a younger age and slightly cooler temperatures than a Russian. So one of the two are getting incorrect husbandry.


----------



## Yvonne G (Jan 20, 2014)

The main concern is the pathogens. Tortoises that live on one continent have lived through the many, many years with their own brand of pathogens, and their bodies have grown used to them so they don't make the tortoise ill. When you put a tortoise from a different continent in with him, those same pathogens that his body is used to might kill the other tortoise because he hasn't evolved with them. It's not the same thing, but I liken it to when the first white people came to our continent and made the native people sick.

Many people mix species with no ill effects, but its not a chance I'm willing to take. And it is our duty to inform new members so you can be aware and make your own decision.


----------



## Tom (Jan 20, 2014)

All three above posters make valid points and any one of those points, all by itself, should be reason enough to not mix species.

To add to what Yvonne said, it does not matter how long your russians have been in captivity or how healthy they may seem. They can carry all sorts of nasties, and be totally a-symptomatic for decades. When they poop and introduce those nasties into the environment the animals from other continents have no immunity or defense against those foreign and novel pathogens or parasites.

Mixing species is certainly not a guaranteed death sentence. Many people gamble and get away with it, but understand that you are taking a very substantial risk with the lives of your tortoises. And russians are probably the worst species to take this risk with. I have seen entire collections die because of the practice. I have seen other mixed collections that seem to be ok, at least temporarily while I was there. I like to compare it to russian roulette. For five people at that table its totally safe and harmless. Ask the sixth guy how he feels about it.


----------



## Cowboy_Ken (Jan 20, 2014)

Tom said:


> Tom, is your email back up and secure once more? I've a fascinating read for you.


----------



## TortoiseWorld (Jan 20, 2014)

One of the issues of mixing tortoise species is that tortoises eat poop and drink poop in water and every tortoise species has a different fauna situation in their gut unique to their own species, this could be like a protozoa type parasites that many tortoises have.
Mixing tortoise species could cause the tortoise's system to become stressed (overloaded) that lowers the resistance of the tortoise, and this in turn can cause susceptibility to other diseases and illness.

There is also behavioral stress. You might not be able to observe any bullying or dominance issues by eye but it could still be there even as simple as a look of the eye, a head nod, or not getting out of the way or even ignoring the other. 
Also they might sense that the other tortoise is of a different species and dread when it's in the hide or fear but can't get away.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## cdmay (Jan 22, 2014)

There was a time when many of us when routinely kept tortoises of different species together with no thought at all of the possible dangers. In fact, I once had a female leopard tortoise, a female Hermann's tortoise and a female red-footed tortoise all nesting within 20 feet of each other in my back yard.
The only social interaction that was visible to me was that my little male Hermann's tortoise apparently felt that my three big female leopards were the sexiest creatures alive. It was hilarious to see him 'running' after them with lust in his eyes.
But having said that, I would NEVER do such a thing now. That was a long time ago and we as tortoise keepers have come a long way. All of the above reasons for not mixing species are good ones and the fact is that taking unnecessary risks puts everyone in danger.
It is my belief that many of the serious tortoise health issues that we are now dealing with are a result of different species being placed together at some point. For example, how is it that the dreaded Intranuclear coccidia is now been found in numerous species of captive tortoises? It certainly didn't arrive here that way. Clearly, at some point one species of tortoise carrier was exposed to another, and so on. It might have simply been that the infected tortoises were kept in a pen or holding area that was then used for another type of tortoise. Or they might have been kept together--if only briefly--in somebodies yard or facility. Probably at some zoo...
Anyway. That's my two cents.


----------



## Jacqui (Jan 22, 2014)

cdmay said:


> There was a time when many of us when routinely kept tortoises of different species together with no thought at all of the possible dangers. In fact, I once had a female leopard tortoise, a female Hermann's tortoise and a female red-footed tortoise all nesting within 20 feet of each other in my back yard.
> The only social interaction that was visible to me was that my little male Hermann's tortoise apparently felt that my three big female leopards were the sexiest creatures alive. It was hilarious to see him 'running' after them with lust in his eyes.
> But having said that, I would NEVER do such a thing now. That was a long time ago and we as tortoise keepers have come a long way. All of the above reasons for not mixing species are good ones and the fact is that taking unnecessary risks puts everyone in danger.
> It is my belief that many of the serious tortoise health issues that we are now dealing with are a result of different species being placed together at some point. For example, how is it that the dreaded Intranuclear coccidia is now been found in numerous species of captive tortoises? It certainly didn't arrive here that way. Clearly, at some point one species of tortoise carrier was exposed to another, and so on. It might have simply been that the infected tortoises were kept in a pen or holding area that was then used for another type of tortoise. Or they might have been kept together--if only briefly--in somebodies yard or facility. Probably at some zoo...
> Anyway. That's my two cents.



A very good two cents worth, as are the other posts in this thread.


----------



## TheColossus (Feb 12, 2014)

I have to say, my take on mixing any sort of species is that it should only be done if the animals come from the same sort of area/ecosystem and could be found in the wild together. Otherwise, the risk of introducing strange pathogens is too great... remember what happened when Europeans came over to the Americas? 95% native deaths in some areas.

For example, (although these are two separate sub-species and not different species all together) I house a male western painted turtle and a female midland painted turtle together, and they do just fine and get along great. They both seem very happy with each others company. Then again, I slowly introduced them over a period of months when they were both adults of roughly the same size, and only decided to keep them together in the first place because they both inhabit the same areas in certain places of the US, and do breed in the wild (I've seen my pair breeding before and about a month ago my female laid 6 eggs that appeared fertile, unfortunately I only found them after they had either been crushed or eaten by their own mother).

So shorten things up, I would only keep different species together if both met the following general requirements.

1. Similar adult size
2. Same care needs (temperature, humidity, diet, etc.)
3. From the same area (I would never put, for example, a Mediterranean tortoise in with a South American tortoise).

As far as I'm aware of, there's really not more than a handful (if that many) tortoise species that fit those three categories. The only tortoises I'd consider keeping together myself are yellowfoots and redfoots, because they're so closely related together. I don't know enough about other species to comment on things like Russians or Greeks or anything.


----------



## tort_luv_5055 (Feb 16, 2014)

Mgridgaway and I had a debate about a RF and a sully being housed together. (Remember that? *elbows Mgridgaway*) Because a Russian and a Sully hatchling are similar in there care besides humidity, I would say it was ok. As long as the tortoises are the same size, I think it would be okay as a temporary home. I mean really, I understand the whole thing about Pathogens, but if it's only temporary, then I think you could pull it off. Tom, do you have a source that you could cite for us, proving that tortoises have actually gotten sick and/or died? I am not trying to stir anything up  I just have never seen anything like that, are you suggesting that there was some type of plague? I have never heard and have yet to see a dead or sick tortoises that died or got sick from being housed with another species of tortoise.


----------



## hunterk997 (Feb 16, 2014)

tort_luv_5055 said:


> Mgridgaway and I had a debate about a RF and a sully being housed together. (Remember that? *elbows Mgridgaway*) Because a Russian and a Sully hatchling are similar in there care besides humidity, I would say it was ok. As long as the tortoises are the same size, I think it would be okay as a temporary home. I mean really, I understand the whole thing about Pathogens, but if it's only temporary, then I think you could pull it off. Tom, do you have a source that you could cite for us, proving that tortoises have actually gotten sick and/or died? I am not trying to stir anything up  I just have never seen anything like that, are you suggesting that there was some type of plague? I have never heard and have yet to see a dead or sick tortoises that died or got sick from being housed with another species of tortoise.



From what I have understood about sully care, is that they need high humidity as hatchlings. And Russians only need humidity around 40-50%. I think the person above made a good point. I would only mix species if they had extremely similar care, and came from the same area in the wild.


----------



## Yvonne G (Feb 16, 2014)

tort_luv_5055 said:


> Tom, do you have a source that you could cite for us, proving that tortoises have actually gotten sick and/or died? I am not trying to stir anything up  I just have never seen anything like that, are you suggesting that there was some type of plague? I have never heard and have yet to see a dead or sick tortoises that died or got sick from being housed with another species of tortoise.



I'm not Tom, and I have no actual science to quote to you, however, I've been rescuing turtles and tortoises for a very long time. In that time, I've taken in sick tortoises and the majority of the time the story was simply that they loved their tortoise (desert tortoise or whatever) so they decided to get another one, but this time they got a sulcata. The tortoises never got along, and now the desert tortoise is sick and I don't want it anymore.

I have to put 2 and 2 together here and assume that the sulcata introduced pathogens to the desert tortoise and now the desert tortoise is sick because of it. Usually I can get the sick tortoise well and find him a new home, but occasionally there is nothing I can do and he simply dies.

The main school of thought as to why American desert tortoises are dying in the wild from URDS Upper Respiratory Distress Syndrome, caused by mycoplasma, is because people got tired of their sulcatas, russians, whatever, and released them into the wild.


----------



## Redfoot NERD (Feb 16, 2014)

AND.. consider the "weakend"(sp.?) systems of the integrates/hybrids that have occured over the years of importing, etc. -- not to mention the 'air-bourne' stuff that goes on too!!! ( how well I know about that one )

IMHumbleO - "Stick with one species/subspecies" - you'll be glad you did - there's plenty of joy in that alone...


----------



## tort_luv_5055 (Feb 16, 2014)

Thank you! I have been searching all over for good proof that two species cannot be housed together! You guys are awesome, you learn something new everyday


----------



## TheColossus (Feb 18, 2014)

Redfoot NERD said:


> AND.. consider the "weakend"(sp.?) systems of the integrates/hybrids that have occured over the years of importing, etc. -- not to mention the 'air-bourne' stuff that goes on too!!! ( how well I know about that one )
> 
> IMHumbleO - "Stick with one species/subspecies" - you'll be glad you did - there's plenty of joy in that alone...



I have to say, in response to the second half of your post (and your comment about weakened immune systems in hybrids, which I don't agree with), if an experienced turtle or tortoise keeper is careful, I think it's perfectly fine to mix subspecies.

-----

(excuse me while I get off-topic for a bit and talk about the breeding aspect of mixing species )

The main reason I advocate for this, in common species (let me clarify this is a big no-no in endangered populations) is because of heterosis, or "hybrid vigor." Basically, this is the improvement in the quality of offspring that often results from hybrid breeding (the mixing of separate subspecies [intra-specific hybrids] or species). Many people use this practice with types of livestock to improve their herds/flocks or whatever it may be, overall. There's a lot of proof for the benefits of smart hybrid breeding (I'm not talking about those idiot backyard breeders who produce ligers and tigons and those sort of things). Just look at domestic cats and dogs! I may prefer purebreds and pedigree dogs myself, but it's no secret that mixed breeds tend to be healthier and live longer.

Basically, what all that means, is that (and this is easily seen in mixed-breed dogs, for example) offspring will hopefully inherit the best qualities of both of their parents, instead of the bad (because there is a wider range of genes to choose from) resulting in a stronger, more genetically diverse, and overall healthier animal (in this case, I'm talking about turtles). That right there is the reason why my breeding pair of painted turtles is a midland and western mix, because my hope is to one day produce better quality, healthy painted turtles. Let me specify here that is because those turtles would remain in captivity, and would never be released into the wild. Introducing any sort of hybrid, or any animal for that matter, outside their natural range, is a recipe for disaster. You should never do it.

-----

A subspecies is defined as "a category in biological classification that ranks immediately below a species and designates a population of a particular geographic region genetically distinguishable from other such populations of the same species and capable of interbreeding successfully with them where its range overlaps theirs," by Merriam-Webster, or put into simple terms a section of a larger species.

For example (I'll use his again because it's the easiest) the painted turtle is native to North America and is compromised of four subspecies: the eastern, the midland, the southern, and the western. If you go to the Wiki page for painted turtles and scroll down to the range section, there's a wonderful colored diagram that shows the ranges of all four sub-species, and the areas where their ranges cross and hybrid turtles can be found.

The fact that interbreeding between the painted turtle sub-species is so common we can include those ranges on a map convinces me that there's no harm in mixing any type of painted turtle. Well, that any my own experience in doing that. The best and closest match, of course, would be to keep midlands with easterns, but any is fine.

I'd say the same should easily apply to tortoises (or other types of turtles). If two or more tortoises (or any animal for that matter) are considered subspecies under a larger species category, then they are so closely related there should be no problems with strange pathogens, or large differences in care needs, or immense variations of size. If the differences were that great, they wouldn't be subspecies, they'd each be a separate species.

Then again, you have to be more careful with things like Greek tortoises. Greeks have many subspecies that can be found over 3 continents. In the case of a tortoise like that, if you insist on mixing subspecies, you should stick to mixing tortoises that came at least from the same continent, preferably the same general area, and you should be sure they're compatible. I'm no Greek expert so I cannot say for sure if there are any types that meet those requirements.

I'm only talking about subspecies here. Again, mixing species is a totally different, and far more problematic thing. What I'd suggest, at the least, is if you really want to feel like you're keeping multiple species together, build yourself a nice big tortoise table, divide it up in half, or thirds, or whatever you need (be sure each section is large enough) and designate that section for a certain species, and design it to fit their care needs, with proper lighting, temperatures, humidity, and such. For example, I believe Vicki Hale from The Tortoise Yard has a giant 20 ft or something long table that she has divided up into three sections for her leopard, redfoot, and cherryhead hatchlings. It really is a thing of beauty. 

But this whole post is just my two cents  no one has to agree with anything I say


----------



## plamphier (Mar 7, 2014)

Given that CA desert tortoises are endangered species it ought to be a big NO NO to mix them with any other species and possibly cause their death. We're not talking about creatures you can buy on Craigs list or Petco here. And since the desert tortoise doesn't need company, why do it anyway? Well . . . tortoise lust, which I totally understand, but still . . . . safety first with the endangered species.


----------

