# [split] Wild caught or Captive bred?



## Tom (Jul 27, 2012)

*Note from mod Yvonne: One of our members wondered what tortoise to buy and the thread turned into a debate on wild caught or captive bred, so I've split off the debate into this thread.*










johanna said:


> Get the redfoots for ethical reasons. I would never recommend supporting people who make money off taking animals out of the wild and depleting the wild populations. If you want a pancake get one from a reputable breeder. They will be healthier and happier.
> On a side note, Pancakes hide a lot. Sometimes mine hide for days. If you want an animal who is social and interactive, a pancake will bore you. I dont know much about redfoots.



I never understand this when the very same people who say this have tortoises that are direct defendants of wild caught ones, or wild caught themselves, thereby financially rewarding the people who are responsible for removing the from the wild in the first place.

All captive breeding populations have to be started from wild caught tortoises at some point, so everyone who owns a tortoise is equally responsible for that species being removed from the wild. There is nothing wrong with taking a small percentage of wild individuals to fill the need for captive breeders.

In the case of pancakes, removal from the wild and importation has been spotty for the last few years, so I hardly think they are being "depleted". Sure it can be over done, but I'd venture a guess that neither of us really know the state of wild pancakes right now.


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## wellington (Jul 27, 2012)

*RE: Should I or shouldn't I*

I get what Tom is saying. However, when an animal or reptile is able to be CB then that is what I think should be bought. If there is no need to take from the wild. Then I don't think they should be. If there is a need, then that's when I feel it is okay. My opinion, go with the Redfoots. Whatever you decide is of course up to you. But, you must show us pics when you get it


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## johanna (Jul 27, 2012)

*RE: Should I or shouldn't I*

Obviously everything came from the wild originally, but captive bred animals are available, so why wouldn't someone purchase captive bred? I said that I would not recommend purchasing wild caught, but I did not tell anyone they cannot do it, just that I would not. No need to lecture or get defensive over my personal opinion.


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## Tom (Jul 29, 2012)

*RE: Should I or shouldn't I*



mrlax said:


> However, this said, I think there are a lot more health considerations/intangibles/unknowns with wild-caught reptiles which need to be considered and are difficult to assess. This is not a comment/criticism about your contact, just a very general thing to think about.



I completely agree with this. Very true.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Sep 8, 2012)

*RE: Should I or shouldn't I*

Here's my 2Â¢ concerning w/c vs. cbb;
One of my â€œother" hobbies is bonsai. I'm in Oregon and our forests offer many opportunities for collecting â€œreal" trees,(yamadori). The hard part for me in doing this is if the same plant can be purchased at a nursery, I feel the wild tree should be allowed to complete its life where it is as a reward for surviving the odds. This practice of yamadori is now outlawed in Japan in that the trees are seen as a national treasure that needs protection. Some areas have been cleaned out by collecting. This happened over 100's of years not just one human lifetime. 
Potentially, this could also happen in the reptile world. Remember Lonely George had parents and siblings yet died alone.


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## Masin (Sep 8, 2012)

*RE: Should I or shouldn't I*



Cowboy_Ken said:


> Here's my 2Â¢ concerning w/c vs. cbb;
> One of my â€œother" hobbies is bonsai. I'm in Oregon and our forests offer many opportunities for collecting â€œreal" trees,(yamadori). The hard part for me in doing this is if the same plant can be purchased at a nursery, I feel the wild tree should be allowed to complete its life where it is as a reward for surviving the odds. This practice of yamadori is now outlawed in Japan in that the trees are seen as a national treasure that needs protection. Some areas have been cleaned out by collecting. This happened over 100's of years not just one human lifetime.
> Potentially, this could also happen in the reptile world. Remember Lonely George had parents and siblings yet died alone.



I love this read.


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## jp07 (Dec 1, 2012)

*RE: Should I or shouldn't I*

I find the arguments that owning any reptile means you contribute to its decline to be quite idiotic. Before anyone starts, I do not currently own any tortoises, I have rescued in the past but I am a biologist having worked in African conservation for a number of years including chelonians and pancakes in the Serengeti NP. 

Most of our chelonians are threatened. In most of the terrestrial cases it is the pet trade which is causing population decline, either exclusively or in conjunction with other threats. 

The demand for these animals as pets will never go away, I am an in situ biologist conservationist but I am part of that demand, I have no moral argument against animals in captivity. However when that captivity is at the expense of wild populations this is different. The pancake is currently listed as vulnerable and declining due in part to habitat encroachment but primarily harvesting for the international pet trade.

To fuel increasing demand from declining wild populations will result in species extinctions. Yes captive populations stem from originally wild caught animals but we are now in a position whereby to have these animals they do not have to be wild caught. Indeed a strong, well managed captive bred population may well have in important part to play in the long term survival of wild populations by alleviating the pressure on those populations and forming a pool of important genetic diversity.

When the founders of the captive bred populations were caught, even if relatively recently (1 or 2 generations), the populations were in a better state and there were more populations. 

Buying wild caught animals contributes to the decline of a species, buying captive bred supports a population which does not.


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## RedfootsRule (Dec 1, 2012)

It seems like theres a pretty simple, undeniable answer to this...If you have the option to purchase captive bred or wild-caught, get captive-bred. (1) Captive bred are healthier, usually. (2) Purchasing wild-caught tortoises just increases and supports the business, thus depleting wild populations of tortoises that are probably already in endangerment. However, it is true that originally, a few wild-caught specimens need to be taken as founders for future captive-bred generations. 
I don't think this should apply, however, to already very-rare species that have not been able to be bred by even the most experienced tortoise biologists/hobbyists. The only thing that should be done with these species is defending their habitats/protecting them in the wild.

In short, I couldn't agree with jp07 more.


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## FLINTUS (Dec 22, 2012)

I agree with RedFootsRule mainly on this. Personally, with species such as Hermann's, Red Foots, Sulcatas, Leopards, Horsfields e.t.c, basically the common species, always buy CB. Sometimes it is necessary to take WC specimens, e.g. rare species like Tent Tortoises breeding programmes, but IMO you shouldn't be taking WC specimens unless you are very experienced as they will likely die within a few years.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 22, 2012)

I'm in a totally different place than most of you. Many years ago I went to SoCal and purchased some Russian tortoises from a wholesaler, but haven't *purchased* tortoises for a very long time. When people find out you are into tortoises, if you wait long enough, they just seem to come to you. Of course, you can't pick and choose...you have to take what they bring you, but I've gotten quite a nice variety of different tortoises during the years. Most of them get adopted out, but I've kept a few. I'm sure some of them, probably most of them were wild caught. 

I doubt we're ever going to be able to stop the collecting of wild turtles and tortoises. As long as there's a market, they'll keep collecting.

If you have a choice between a wc or cb, choose the cb, however if you want a tortoise and wc is all there is available, get it.


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## african cake queen (Dec 22, 2012)

i think the biggist problem facing the pancake in loss of habitat.people ruining the land there.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Dec 22, 2012)

emysemys said:


> I'm in a totally different place than most of you. Many years ago I went to SoCal and purchased some Russian tortoises from a wholesaler, but haven't *purchased* tortoises for a very long time. When people find out you are into tortoises, if you wait long enough, they just seem to come to you. Of course, you can't pick and choose...you have to take what they bring you, but I've gotten quite a nice variety of different tortoises during the years. Most of them get adopted out, but I've kept a few. I'm sure some of them, probably most of them were wild caught.



LOL, I'm a little in the same boat, Yvonne. Its reptiles in general for me and some of my friends. Sometimes people just leave things at our doorstep!


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## yagyujubei (Dec 22, 2012)

If the country of origin allows collection and exportation, I think it is very foolish indeed not to take an opportunity to get new blood lines into the US. Sooner or later, this won't be possible. Personally, I would buy wild caught S. African leopards. I don't think it will be too long before all of them in the US are related. How inbred are the current populations? Who knows - no one keeps proper records and pedigrees. I used to breed purebred cats, and had pedigrees that went back seven or eight generations back to the original imports. If you're a breeder and satisfied that the genetic diversity is sufficient, by CB. What impact does an inbred population have on hatchling health? Were the parents of your new CB baby brother and sister? Who knows.


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## Jacqui (Dec 22, 2012)

For myself, I would rather buy a WC. My reasons are this:

A) At the point of capture are the harvesting folks doing this to support their families and if not selling to the pet trade, will it be going into the cooking pot? Is there a viable habitat being left for these animals and are other predators on an even level or have things changed in the environment to where this group of animals will not be able to survive? For instance, here in the USA are we putting a large housing development with stores on their nesting/housing site? Or once more in the USA, is this an area where coyotes and crows are in too large of numbers and are doing a heavier harvest on hatchlings then nature intended.

B) Now the animal is already removed from it's habitat and can no longer go back there... should that animal be made an example of and just left to die al in the name of the cause of "they will just replace it with another one"? To me, it's like somebody going out and blowing money they have in hand on fun things, not life necessities, hoping they MIGHT win the powerball and have money to spend then to keep the lights and heat on and a roof over their heads. I tend to worry about the animal that is there and in the here and now. Is that animal any less important? Are it's genes any less needed?

C) This is my personal wants and needs level. I prefer WC, because they are less expensive. If WC and CB cost the same that would be one thing, but they are not. I have not had to spend huge amounts of money on these so called sick animals that WC are claimed to be. I have also saw CB that have been very sick and have died as a result. I like adults and really do not care for raising hatchlings. Most often hatchlings are the only CB your going to find. I like seeing and knowing what I am getting, not waiting years to find out that group of Stars I bought as hatchlings and spent years raising are all males, so I am back almost to square one at getting a breeding group going. I like knowing my stock is much more diverse gene wise, then they would be buying captive from the few breeders out there. For instance with my Bells, there are only a couple of breeders selling CB Bells. I have some from both, why buy more from the same gene pool when I can bring in a WC with a whole new set to work with? 

I think you need to take each case on it's own merit. Look at what your wanting in the end, what your comfortable working with, and what you have to choose from. Both buying CB and WC have their points and their times when each are the best choice to go with.


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## Baoh (Dec 22, 2012)

To the points made by yagyujubei, I do agree regarding diversifying bloodlines. For reasons I have gone into before, I am not especially concerned regarding inbreeding in and of itself (and it is sometimes my intention to achieve such), but I do try to outcross or combine diverse bloodlines when possible as a matter of general practice.

I also like the three main tenets of Jacqui's post.

As for me, I select interesting animals. That is whether they are WC or CB. My preference is to go CB if I have the option, but I have no problem going WC if CB equivalents to what I am seeking are not available.


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## RedfootsRule (Dec 22, 2012)

Most here with the opinion of WC over CB seem to look at it that its more important to us to have WC. Suits our uses better. Sure, I've seen many, many BEAUTIFUL WC adult breeder red foots for sale; new bloodline, could make some highly-priced, equally beautiful hatchlings. An example of an animal I'd like to add to my herd. They're certainly cheaper.

But hold on. When did OUR personal uses become more important then the species? When did it happen that tortoises should be taken from the wild for us to use and exploit to fit our own needs, not giving a second though about their plight in the wild? Its this train of thought that has and WILL lead to the demise of species. And IMHO it has to stop...

It is hard though, because yes, by the time you buy it it has already been removed from the wild. Its not going back there. And you think about the poor tortoise, likely in poor conditions, and leaving it doomed to death. That, I don't know what to say about, because its horrible. But buying them is like throwing gasoline on the fire of the capture and importation of the tortoises. In other words; if we don't buy them, they won't keep capturing them...

The best thing to do is to take a harsher stance on habitat destruction. Protect them where they stand, not buy WC and say "there won't be anything left for them anyways." Because soon, there won't be. There will be no tortoises in the wild. Sure, we will have captive, but they will just be a sad reminder of what happened. I picture future generations saying "how could they let this happen?"

But as Jacqui said, each case has to be taken as its own. For some species, we do need a number in captivity for breeding programs; as assurance that if the unspeakable happens in the wild, they WILL still exist.


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## ascott (Dec 22, 2012)

Jacqui also raises a point....you may also want to determine what your role in the reptiles life is going to be; meaning, are you a person that is a collector for pleasure? are you a person that plays the role in rehab and relocate to a permanent home? are you a person that will play the role of a way station for the permanently displaced torts that can no longer roam their given land due to removal or injury? 

In my own individual opinion, if you are a collector then you really are going to run into a load of opposition either way you go...captives of course once upon a time are derived from a free and wild tort, we all know that  and captive vs wild will always be a personal choice based on your thoughts and beliefs....hence why there is always ongoing issues with this very topic...as with a million other topics that involve freedom vs restraint....just our human nature trigger I suppose....

I am a person that finds my role as a way station moreover than any other ....this is in a variety of critters-- that I do not "own" but rather am a part of their day....

I personally would rather a moment of true freedom than a lifetime of rules---others opinions forced on by the "majority", whoever that actually is?---a lifetime of force and restraint....but as the tortoise must do as a captive--as many other creatures do, I will endure and carry on in this time of selfishness....I know what my heart is and have faith that one day we will each be blessed with truly knowing and tasting freedom in all of her intended Glory....again, not laying judgement on another, as I am not qualified to do that, but just sharing on this topic


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## Jacqui (Dec 22, 2012)

RedfootsRule said:


> But hold on. When did OUR personal uses become more important then the species? When did it happen that tortoises should be taken from the wild for us to use and exploit to fit our own needs, not giving a second though about their plight in the wild? Its this train of thought that has and WILL lead to the demise of species. And IMHO it has to stop...
> 
> It is hard though, because yes, by the time you buy it it has already been removed from the wild. Its not going back there. And you think about the poor tortoise, likely in poor conditions, and leaving it doomed to death. That, I don't know what to say about, because its horrible. But buying them is like throwing gasoline on the fire of the capture and importation of the tortoises. In other words; if we don't buy them, they won't keep capturing them...
> 
> The best thing to do is to take a harsher stance on habitat destruction. Protect them where they stand, not buy WC and say "there won't be anything left for them anyways." Because soon, there won't be.



For me, I want to be part of saving the hingebacks especially from going extinct. To me that means my "personal uses" as you called them are not "more important" then the species, but my personal uses are the species and it's survival. I would rather see them in captivity, then have them not be either in captivity or left in the wild. *I* can not do anything for them in the wild. Nor do I think I have the right to tell folks in another country how they must conserve them. What *I* can do, is save the WC already captured and in the trade. *I* can help spread information on how to keep these animals alive and give tomorrow's children the chance to see a hingeback in real life, not just pictures. If we don't buy them, never fear they will keep capturing them, but to be filling the stew pots of the world.

I am sorry, but also I do not see a world left for them and other tortoise species in their native wild habitat. The world has changed and this time I do not think they can adapt fast enough for those changes. I don't even have to leave my own country to see this happening. There is a stretch of highway in Colorado, which after any nice rain when I travel the road I see an average of four box turtles every mile. Four DEAD box turtles. How long do you think that areas group of box turtles can sustain itself with that heavy of a loss? Where I live, the 15 mile trip into town use to net me seeing a wild box turtle about four times a year. It has now been several years since I saw one along that road.

I think captive groups are the only hope. In the future, IF and WHEN we might actually have feasible plans set up for them to live wild, then there will be possible animals to be placed back into the wild from captive groups... captive groups which once came from the wild.


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## RedfootsRule (Dec 22, 2012)

Jacqui, the "personal use" part of my post was about your point c and yagyujubei. When you say you prefer WC because they are "less expensive" I can draw no other conclusion from it...

In some ways, you have a point. I would also rather see them in captivity then completely extinct. But hold on.

Most species that are being heavily imported are already being successfully bred in captivity! There is already large enough numbers of these tortoises. So why do we need to keep taking more and more from the wild? 

Take even a red foot tortoise for an example, as I believe it to be the best example. There are SO many of these tortoises in captivity, yet people are still importing! Thanks to that, red foots are now listed by IUCN as VULNERABLE! There is absolutely no POSSIBLE reason to import red foots, other then to make a quick buck or to get a pretty tortoise with a new bloodline for cheaper.

With most species, if they were to go extinct, there is enough numbers in captivity for them to survive. But if we keep taking them, they have no chance in the wild. What we're doing by continually buying them is completely eliminating ANY chance they might have. If we leave whats left of these species in the wild, there may still be some there for the day when their wild habitat is protected.

If we keep taking more tortoises of those already bred in captivity, we're stealing them right behind the backs of those trying to protect them in the wild. They will finally succeed (hopefully one day, they will. PETA may finally prove to have a use in this) in protecting them in the wild, and then realize, there is no tortoises left to protect! Who is to blame if that happens?

Obviously, we need to take some WC of the species that have not yet been bred in captivity to get some assurance groups in place. But those that are being bred, we need to leave alone.


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## Jacqui (Dec 22, 2012)

RedfootsRule said:


> Jacqui, the "personal use" part of my post was about your point c and yagyujubei. When you say you prefer WC because they are "less expensive" I can draw no other conclusion from it...
> 
> Obviously, we need to take some WC of the species that have not yet been bred in captivity to get some assurance groups in place. But those that are being bred, we need to leave alone.



The price comment is one I also make because I think folks who really are concerned about taking more from the wild, should be pricing their captive hatchlings at the same price as a wild one. I am not going to get into, well they need to make a profit, I am just looking at if you make your captives the same price as a wild one, more would buy captive. Price is an object. I myself want the majority of my money going to better housing and feeding, not on purchase price.

If I can get a pair(m/f) of WC adult Bells hingebacks for $200 or spend $600 on a pair (two animals unsexed) of CB Bells, which one makes more sense to somebody trying to get breeding going? Not only would I know I have a pair, but they would be breeding sooner, but I have that $400 to spend on making a larger more nature enclosure for them. I would spend the next several years waiting for those captives to grow up and hope they are a pair (even then they would be less of a pair because no doubt they are siblings). I have been there done that, wasted several years and the space that could have been used for actual producing animals and then ended up with only males. Even folks with "noble" purpose do need to look at price and being upfront about it should not be used as a point against those folks. You may be a person of unlimited income, most of us have to count our pennies and make them stretch.


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## RedfootsRule (Dec 22, 2012)

Jacqui said:


> RedfootsRule said:
> 
> 
> > Jacqui, the "personal use" part of my post was about your point c and yagyujubei. When you say you prefer WC because they are "less expensive" I can draw no other conclusion from it...
> ...



There is an issue there...Tell me when have you seen wild caught hatchlings? I certainly never have. And you will find that most breeders' hatchlings are cheaper then the wild caught juvenilles/adults. (Obviously species specific, I'm just speaking of some of them.)

Assuming by "folks with noble purposes" you mean those that are trying to breed the rarer species to have more of those species in the wild and relive pressure on wild-caught; those same folks should have the sense not to buy wild-caught in the beginning if it is their goal to eliminate it. (Assuming there are CB tortoises of the species they are attempting to breed).

I find it interesting that you assume I am a "person with unlimited income" just because I believe we should be prepared to spend extra money on CB and not buy the cheaper WC. Well, that is definitely my belief. I would sooner spend $1000 on a red foot then buy a $100 wild-caught tortoise, and I say that with full confidence. (And if I didn't have the $1000, then I believe I have no right to own the animal) I would never support WC on species such as this. 

To often, money seems to come into play when owning animals. It is my opinion (and everyone can argue and spin this any way they want) that you SHOULDN'T GET THE ANIMAL if you don't have the money to spend! To often we see this as people get dogs, cats, tortoises, any animals, and then say "Well my tortoise has URTI buy I don't have the money to spend on a vet...". You should not get into owning animals in the first place if you don't have the funds.

However, thats straying off topic. We're talking about WC vs CB.
You know my beliefs, and I feel I understand yours. I don't think there is any more arguing to be had between us...


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## Jacqui (Dec 22, 2012)

RedfootsRule said:


> There is an issue there...Tell me when have you seen wild caught hatchlings? I certainly never have. And you will find that most breeders' hatchlings are cheaper then the wild caught juvenilles/adults. (Obviously species specific, I'm just speaking of some of them.)
> 
> Assuming by "folks with noble purposes" you mean those that are trying to breed the rarer species to have more of those species in the wild and relive pressure on wild-caught; those same folks should have the sense not to buy wild-caught in the beginning if it is their goal to eliminate it. (Assuming there are CB tortoises of the species they are attempting to breed).
> 
> ...



I don't live where tortoises occur naturally, but I do see wild hatchlings of all the major turtles in this area, including ornate box turtles. I would look at Russians (one of the species you mentioned before I believe) that several times a year you can get a WC adult for $50-75, but I have yet to see a hatchling CB for that low of a price.

There is a difference between spending money to buy an animal and having the money to spend on the animal's care. One does not always exclude nor include the other.

Yes, we both understand each other and it seems I will have a nice colony of 10 breeding age redfoots, while you have your one hatchling.   (of course my own in real life colony of redfoots are made up of adopted older CB teenagers for the most part, plus my own raised from hatchling CB animals  ).


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## RedfootsRule (Dec 22, 2012)

[/quote]

I don't live where tortoises occur naturally, but I do see wild hatchlings of all the major turtles in this area, including ornate box turtles. I would look at Russians (one of the species you mentioned before I believe) that several times a year you can get a WC adult for $50-75, but I have yet to see a hatchling CB for that low of a price.

There is a difference between spending money to buy an animal and having the money to spend on the animal's care. One does not always exclude nor include the other.

Yes, we both understand each other and it seems I will have a nice colony of 10 breeding age redfoots, while you have your one hatchling.   (of course my own in real life colony of redfoots are made up of adopted older CB teenagers for the most part, plus my own raised from hatchling CB animals  ).
[/quote]

Turtles are a completely different stories then tortoises. Living in florida, I probably see almost a hundred of them a year. I never mentioned Russians.

Not really, but if thats your belief stick to it.

Thats interesting, because I already have a breeding colony of 6 breeding red foots, none of which are wild caught. And hold on, you just said all your red foots are CB so, er, what difference is there between me and you there? You've been arguing with me the whole time, justifying yourself getting WC animals, and now saying you have "your own raised from hatchling cb animals". 

If your "breeding colony of 10 breeding age red foots" was wild acquired, then enjoy living in ignorance (or awareness) of the fact your contributing to their demise in the wild .


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## Jacqui (Dec 22, 2012)

FLINTUS said:


> Personally, with species such as Hermann's, Red Foots, Sulcatas, Leopards, Horsfields e.t.c, basically the common species, always buy CB.





RedfootsRule said:


> Turtles are a completely different stories then tortoises. Living in florida, I probably see almost a hundred of them a year. I never mentioned Russians.



Your right, I miss remembered something that was said, as being said by you. It was Flintus who made the list.




RedfootsRule said:


> Thats interesting, because I already have a breeding colony of 6 breeding red foots, none of which are wild caught. And hold on, you just said all your red foots are CB so, er, what difference is there between me and you there? You've been arguing with me the whole time, justifying yourself getting WC animals, and now saying you have "your own raised from hatchling cb animals".
> 
> If your "breeding colony of 10 breeding age red foots" was wild acquired, then enjoy living in ignorance (or awareness) of the fact your contributing to their demise in the wild .



My colony of redfoots, leopards, sulcata, stars are CB and I think all the Cherryheads are too. However my Russians and hingebacks are WC. So while I have and will in the future raise CBs of different species, most of the animals I have and will buy in the future are WC. I believe there is a place for WC buying and good reasons to do so. Keep in mind, my main work with tortoises are hingebacks. The other species are just for fun, experience and knowledge.

To you it is "contributing to their demise" to me it is giving them a chance to have animals in the future that could allow for there to be once more wild animals once we have plans in place for that. I just wished before some of the extinct species we have today became extinct somebody had collected some and kept them from going extinct.




RedfootsRule said:


> I would sooner spend $1000 on a red foot then buy a $100 wild-caught tortoise,



To make it clear, when I made the comment of you having one CB, while I would have 10 WC, this is what I was referring back to.


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## ascott (Dec 22, 2012)

Just thought I would place and intermission here  enjoy 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWZRGZInJkw


Oh yeah...please forgive the video maker for using the word tortoise for what is clearly a turtle....


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## Jacqui (Dec 22, 2012)

My turtles would have made their escape at the first bar of the song.


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## ascott (Dec 22, 2012)

Jacqui, I have a redfoot tort here (Goliath) who does a similar dance when I rub his bum.....it is soooo funny, so when I watched this vid I laughed really hard and thought I would share the chuckle....


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## Pond_Lilly (Dec 22, 2012)

emysemys said:


> however if you want a tortoise and wc is all there is available, get it.



I think it is extremely irresponsible to suggest something like that and the fact that it comes from this forum mod makes it even more troubling. Wild caught tortoises should not be collected nor sold, period.


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## EricIvins (Dec 22, 2012)

Pond_Lilly said:


> emysemys said:
> 
> 
> > however if you want a tortoise and wc is all there is available, get it.
> ...



But yet if those wild caught Cherryheads were not collected, you wouldn't have those animals you have listed in your signature. Period.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 22, 2012)

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions. We do not all march to the same drummer here. That is what makes our forum one of the best ones you can belong to. If you want to buy only captive bred animals, then that is what you should do. You have to appease your own conscience. Likewise, if one of our members wants to buy a wild caught animal, provided that animal was caught and sold legally, I believe that is what he should do. It is not up to me to try to change someone's belief system.


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## mattgrizzlybear (Dec 22, 2012)

I really don't like wild caught because they are taken out of the wild against there will. They lived in peace and what do we know? They could have had complex societies and families. They are hurt in the process of being removed and then sold to who? Usually an person who is new to reptiles and thinks "awwww! It is so cute!" Or "what a great family pet! The guy says it is easy to care for!" They are most likely kept in very small enclosures. It is very sad but it is the pet trade world . And still, we never knew what that little tort would have became in the wild. Captive bred and born is best because these torts are kept in good conditions but sadly some still get into the pet trade and go to bad homes. Most though go to good homes but those are usually breeders. Mass breeders of animals almost all the time end up in the pet trade, pet stores, and food a.k.a tort soup. It is a cruel world and little torts struggle to survive. Some thrive, some don't. It is life and we should give it a fighting chance.


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## RedfootsRule (Dec 22, 2012)

mattgrizzlybear said:


> I really don't like wild caught because they are taken out of the wild against there will. They lived in peace and what do we know? They could have had complex societies and families. They are hurt in the process of being removed and then sold to who? Usually an person who is new to reptiles and thinks "awwww! It is so cute!" Or "what a great family pet! The guy says it is easy to care for!" They are most likely kept in very small enclosures. It is very sad but it is the pet trade world . And still, we never knew what that little tort would have became in the wild. Captive bred and born is best because these torts are kept in good conditions but sadly some still get into the pet trade and go to bad homes. Most though go to good homes but those are usually breeders. Mass breeders of animals almost all the time end up in the pet trade, pet stores, and food a.k.a tort soup. It is a cruel world and little torts struggle to survive. Some thrive, some don't. It is life and we should give it a fighting chance.



Precisely. Yet another reason NOT to buy WC.


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## FLINTUS (Dec 23, 2012)

Jacqui, you said you have WC Horsfields? Here in the UK there are very few WC ones, nearly all are CB(because the majority of tortoise owners now buy from breeders)[/align] now except for some pet shops. The WC ones are generally more expensive as well.


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## Jacqui (Dec 23, 2012)

mattgrizzlybear said:


> I really don't like wild caught because they are taken out of the wild against there will. They lived in peace and what do we know? They could have had complex societies and families. They are hurt in the process of being removed and then sold to who? Usually an person who is new to reptiles and thinks "awwww! It is so cute!" Or "what a great family pet! The guy says it is easy to care for!" They are most likely kept in very small enclosures. It is very sad but it is the pet trade world . And still, we never knew what that little tort would have became in the wild. Captive bred and born is best because these torts are kept in good conditions but sadly some still get into the pet trade and go to bad homes. Most though go to good homes but those are usually breeders. Mass breeders of animals almost all the time end up in the pet trade, pet stores, and food a.k.a tort soup. It is a cruel world and little torts struggle to survive. Some thrive, some don't. It is life and we should give it a fighting chance.



I think you have a very beautiful, but untrue picture of life in the wild. It is not the picnic of great freedom we all want to think of. With freedom comes great prices. Starting as en egg, you face dangers from predators digging you up before you even hatch. The nest site your mother picked may not have been that good, so you may die during a flood. Or would it be a lack of moisture? Too much heat? Too much cold that kills you while still in the egg. Of the few that do hatch, you face an even greater array of hungry predators and climate issues to over come. Your days are not spent happily grazing in the sunshine, no you must always be on the watch for all those hungry mouths from above and below. A drought can wipe out your food supply, so you may face long term hunger. Even something not meaning to eat you, may come along and hurt you by accident, like that water buffalo. One misstep and off the cliff you fall, landing on your back, in that glorious sun with no nice human to place you back on your feet. Life as a captive, while not free is a life of luxury unknown to a wild animal.

I do wonder why you think WC face such horrible captive living conditions ("kept in very small enclosures"), yet also think CB animals live better in those same homes ("Captive bred and born is best because these torts are kept in good conditions"). Or how a pet from a pet store will be going to a bad home (" pet trade and go to bad homes"). Take time to look around in this forum alone and see how many wonderful homes, tortoises sold in the "pet trade" are now living.

What makes a "mass breeder" the person with 20 pancakes who produces 40 hatchlings or the lady down the block with 1 pair of sulcata producing 60? Being bred by a breeder or sold without ever being in a pet store does not guarantee better health, better care, or a better life in any way. Nor does being a breeder automatically give you great knowledge of tortoise care.


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## FLINTUS (Dec 23, 2012)

I don't know about the US, but here most pet shops hand out very bad advice and charge a fortune more than a breeder. For instance, Hermann's usually cost Â£100 from a breeder here, from pet shops between Â£125-160. Red Foots Â£100(they are not as common here as in the US) from breeder, WC specimens from pet shop around Â£140-160 and so on.


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## Tom (Dec 23, 2012)

Very well said Jacqui. I agree.




FLINTUS said:


> I don't know about the US, but here most pet shops hand out very bad advice and charge a fortune more than a breeder. For instance, Hermann's usually cost Â£100 from a breeder here, from pet shops between Â£125-160. Red Foots Â£100(they are not as common here as in the US) from breeder, WC specimens from pet shop around Â£140-160 and so on.



It is similar on all counts here in the US. Store fronts will always have to charge more to cover all their expenses. Rent, utilities, government fees for businesses, etc... Really its a wonder they don't have to charge more.


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## CharlieM (Dec 23, 2012)

I breed and raise lots of finches. We struggle with the same issues. With birds obviously we would prefer to buy captive bred versus wild caught. We understand that the captive bred ones come from wold caught stock but hope by buying them we alleviate the stress on wild bird populations. I feel the same about the tortoises but agree with many that the wild tortoises struggle with habitat loss, predators and human harvesting for either food or sales. It's for sure complicated. I think it may come down to individual species. Which species are better to purchase as captives or wild caughts. Good points for both sides have been written here.


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## Baoh (Dec 23, 2012)

Jacqui said:


> mattgrizzlybear said:
> 
> 
> > I really don't like wild caught because they are taken out of the wild against there will. They lived in peace and what do we know? They could have had complex societies and families. They are hurt in the process of being removed and then sold to who? Usually an person who is new to reptiles and thinks "awwww! It is so cute!" Or "what a great family pet! The guy says it is easy to care for!" They are most likely kept in very small enclosures. It is very sad but it is the pet trade world . And still, we never knew what that little tort would have became in the wild. Captive bred and born is best because these torts are kept in good conditions but sadly some still get into the pet trade and go to bad homes. Most though go to good homes but those are usually breeders. Mass breeders of animals almost all the time end up in the pet trade, pet stores, and food a.k.a tort soup. It is a cruel world and little torts struggle to survive. Some thrive, some don't. It is life and we should give it a fighting chance.
> ...



Thank you.


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## RedfootsRule (Dec 23, 2012)

Jacqui said:


> mattgrizzlybear said:
> 
> 
> > I really don't like wild caught because they are taken out of the wild against there will. They lived in peace and what do we know? They could have had complex societies and families. They are hurt in the process of being removed and then sold to who? Usually an person who is new to reptiles and thinks "awwww! It is so cute!" Or "what a great family pet! The guy says it is easy to care for!" They are most likely kept in very small enclosures. It is very sad but it is the pet trade world . And still, we never knew what that little tort would have became in the wild. Captive bred and born is best because these torts are kept in good conditions but sadly some still get into the pet trade and go to bad homes. Most though go to good homes but those are usually breeders. Mass breeders of animals almost all the time end up in the pet trade, pet stores, and food a.k.a tort soup. It is a cruel world and little torts struggle to survive. Some thrive, some don't. It is life and we should give it a fighting chance.
> ...



Wait. Hold on.

Are we actually saying animals are better off in captivity because "they face so many dangers in the wild"? They were born that way! Animals were born in the wild to be there; not born in the wild to be kidnapped by humans.

They may die in the wild. They may die a lot in the wild. Sure, they face a large array of dangers; but thats how they were made. I would believe any WC animal would rather die free then live caged for the rest of its life...

And yes, it is different then CB animals. CB animals are born into captivity; its all they know, they don't spend the days dreaming of what it was like. But WC are taken out of a beautiful (yet dangerous) life to live one of confinement.
How fair does *that* sound?

And regardless of how the animal feels, we're eliminating them from contributing to the food chain. Another step of humans screwing around with the natural way of things.


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## ascott (Dec 23, 2012)

> Are we actually saying animals are better off in captivity because "they face so many dangers in the wild"? _They were born that way! Animals were born in the wild to be there_; not born in the wild to be kidnapped by humans.
> 
> _They_ may _die in the wild_. _They may die a lot in the wild_. Sure, they face a large array of dangers; but _thats how they were made. I would believe any WC animal would rather die free then live caged for the rest of its life..._



*We all die, we are designed to do that from the moment we are born...also, so many captive/confined torts-turtles die every day in captivity...captive is not the cure all to living forever *



> we're eliminating them from contributing to the food chain. Another step of humans screwing around with the natural way of things.



*I do not believe we humans are qualified to make these choices and decisions, we just are not*...the proof of this is how we now are taking the credit for "saving" so many species and how they would "not make it if not for our intervention"...well, had we not been raping and pillaging what is not ours to devour ---we would not have to be cleaning up our messes, we infest this world with such irresponsible over population of our species which seems to lead us to believe that we have some greater right to this world, so unbalanced...now, this is just a belief of mine and I am in no way trying to waiver nor judge someone else beliefs...


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## RedfootsRule (Dec 23, 2012)

Ascott, I can't tell if your agreeing with me or not?

Your right, captivity is no heaven either. Another reason why we shouldn't force WC animals to live there...

No, we humans are definitely NOT qualified to make the decision of taking animals out of the wild. We are NOT qualified to mess around with the natural food chain. I agree; if humans had not ruined the wild to begin with, things would be better. But now, its our responsibility to fix what we started, and taking animals from the wild doesn't help anything.

As your signature says, when one tugs at a single thing in nature he finds it attached to the rest of the world.

Honestly, I couldn't agree with you more. We need to clean up our messes. Not continue to make them.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Dec 23, 2012)

I think everyone knows my stance on this matter. It would be fine if we stayed where we were thousands of years ago; all the animals lived their wild lives in their natural ecosystems and we were still dragging our clubs and barely learning to build a fire in the cave. Then we could have a more even keeled perspective on the ethics of taking a wild animal out of its natural element just for our own pleasure.

However, even if you put an end to the entire pet industry, you would still have a lot of wild tortoises disappearing off the face of the planet by the hand of mankind due to massive habitat destruction, as well as people eating them in impoverished countries. Personally, while we can argue the ethics of what we do all day long, thousands of tortoises are still going to bite the dust each year even if everyone on this forum decides never to buy WC ever again.

We're never going to change things, folks. I wish people would just get off their high horse, and feel good about caring for an animal. Yeah, some of it may be selfish, but everything dies someday, people. A tortoise could perish to disease in the wild, or get picked off by a predator. Or it could rot in a pet store's filthy cage from neglect and improper care. Or...it can have a chance to live a halfway decent life in one of our homes where it gets its food brought to it everyday, little risk of getting eaten by a predator, and a better chance at medical care of something goes wrong with its health.


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## Tom (Dec 23, 2012)

Peter, what you are doing is called projection and anthropomorphism. This is a forum for people who keep tortoises in captive environments. If you are THIS opposed to keeping reptiles captive, I would suggest you get the necessary permits and take a trip to the native land of your chosen specie and reintroduce yours into the wild where they can be eaten, bulldozed, parasitized, killed by cars, starve to death, or possibly, if luck is on their side, survive just fine and even reproduce.

It is completely hypocritical to have captive animals and then rant about how they belong in the wild. Just because you didn't abuse the goose, doesn't make you any less responsible for the abuse of the goose when you ordered and paid for the foie gras. Captive bred animals, ALL of them, are the offspring animals that were, as you say, "kidnapped" from the wild. When you paid for or simply took in and started caring for a tortoise in captivity you made yourself the essential and most important link in a chain of people who are responsible for taking that animal from the wild. You may not have actually taken your tortoises parents from under a bush in some forest, but YOU are the primary reason that those who DID take them out of the wild, did their deed.

I am not saying you are right or wrong about your FEELINGS. I am saying that your feelings do not coincide with the spirit and intent of THIS forum and most of its members. Your expressed feelings also do not coincide with your choice to keep an animal in captivity.


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## TylerStewart (Dec 23, 2012)

+1 Reputation point for Tom and Jacqui. Hey whatever happened to reputation points, anyways? 



> And yes, it is different then CB animals. CB animals are born into captivity; its all they know, they don't spend the days dreaming of what it was like. But WC are taken out of a beautiful (yet dangerous) life to live one of confinement.
> How fair does that sound?



I was born with the intent of wandering naked around the desert eating red meat, coconuts and bananas near the oasis surrounded by beautiful women; but I didn't exactly get my opportunity, either. I'm now taxed against my will and I get a letter in the mail every time I leave my garbage cans out past 1:00 PM on garbage day. 

I prefer wild caught tortoises over captive bred for a few main reasons, some or most of which have already been stated here. I like getting them "closer" to breedable size. I bought CB when I had to (cherryheads, burmese blacks, radiateds, several others that are no longer imported) and now I'm suffering through the misery of years of babysitting baby tortoises dreaming for the day that I can leave them outside all year and not under artificial conditions indoors. I prefer WC animals because they have clean smooth shells. I prefer WC because I feel like I'm getting a "fresh start" with them, and not having to hope that someone else raised something right prior to me getting the animal. I prefer WC animals because I can buy 10 of them this year and 10 of them next year and they all look the same. Buying CB animals that's impossible unless you start with babies and raise them all. 

The species that are still imported are generally not threatened in the wild. When they get threatened, their native countries or the international community generally shut down exports on them or limits the amounts of them that can leave. Russians, redfoots, Greeks, etc have massive natural ranges, and they are heavily populated in their ranges. I don't know the exact numbers, but a huge number of the imported redfoots aren't WC at all; they're farm raised in South America (you can tell by their slightly pyramided shells). Hermanns aren't WC and imported anymore; they're "farmed" at least on paperwork (their native countries don't allow export), and most imported hermanns have the "look" of being raised in captivity. There's debate whether some hermanns are WC and imported illegally, but most of what I've seen (and purchased many of) in the past 2 years looked farm raised. Sulcatas and leopards aren't imported at all and haven't been in a long time. There's really very very few species that are actually caught in the wild and imported still. Besides maybe pancakes (which are imported in comparatively very small numbers), I can't think of one that I would consider "at risk" in its native range.

On a final note, I have very few losses from recently wild caught animals.... The idea that "most die within a few months" I'm just not seeing.


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## RedfootsRule (Dec 23, 2012)

Tom said:


> Peter, what you are doing is called projection and anthropomorphism. This is a forum for people who keep tortoises in captive environments. If you are THIS opposed to keeping reptiles captive, I would suggest you get the necessary permits and take a trip to the native land of your chosen specie and reintroduce yours into the wild where they can be eaten, bulldozed, parasitized, killed by cars, starve to death, or possibly, if luck is on their side, survive just fine and even reproduce.
> 
> It is completely hypocritical to have captive animals and then rant about how they belong in the wild. Just because you didn't abuse the goose, doesn't make you any less responsible for the abuse of the goose when you ordered and paid for the foie gras. Captive bred animals, ALL of them, are the offspring animals that were, as you say, "kidnapped" from the wild. When you paid for or simply took in and started caring for a tortoise in captivity you made yourself the essential and most important link in a chain of people who are responsible for taking that animal from the wild. You may not have actually taken your tortoises parents from under a bush in some forest, but YOU are the primary reason that those who DID take them out of the wild, did their deed.
> 
> I am not saying you are right or wrong about your FEELINGS. I am saying that your feelings do not coincide with the spirit and intent of THIS forum and most of its members. Your expressed feelings also do not coincide with your choice to keep an animal in captivity.



Tom...

What *you* are doing here is calling being assumptuous....Name where in my posts that I am "this opposed" to keep to keeping reptiles captive? You won't be able to, because its not there. I am opposed to keeping *WILD CAUGHT* reptiles captive. (Only of certain species however. I did recognize the need to take certain species that have not yet been bred to have assurance groups out of the wild.)

Anthropomorphisism is applying ones feelings to an animal...In a way, I suppose you can say that. But I'm not applying "my feelings" to them. I'm understanding theirs...I've grown up with animals my whole life, and have been in the rescue business for some time. In all this time, I feel I have a *very* good understanding of how animals feel.

Hypocritical would apply to me if I was "ranting" about keeping CAPTIVE BRED animals captive. I'm not. I'm "ranting" about keeping WC animals in captivity! You have ignored to read my posts if you're assuming this about me; *nothing I said* applied to captive bred animals. Not a single word of it.

Yes, in the beginning ALL captive bred animals were wild. But as I've seen others say, when the first tortoises entered captivity it was a *MUCH* different scenario. The wild is not the same now as it was 30 years ago. 30 years ago many species that are now in critical endangerment were plentiful in the wild. So, if you take one second to look at the facts, you'll see that what happened back then, and what happens now, have *nothing* to do with each other.

I literally can't even begin to grasp how you come to the conclusion that I'm the primary reason the first tortoises were taken from the wild...I guess I can then say; Tom, if you eat bagels, *you* are the primary reason there are bagels in this world. Does that sound feasible in any stretch of the imagination? Personally, I don't think so.

My feelings about WC animals do not, in any stretch of the imagination, coincide with the choice of those on this forum to keep, once again, *CAPTIVE BRED* animals in captive. They do however, coincide with the choice to keep WC animals in captivity.

I guess I'll end with this. It can be argued and spun in whatever people wish it to be, but its undeniable. The next time we hear about 400 radiated hatchlings being smuggled illegally into an airport in america in a suitcase...Why do you think it is? How many people in the U.S eat tortoise soup? None that I'm aware of. Those tortoises entered America to satisfy the demand for WILD CAUGHT tortoises. Thats the primary reason. So if you buy WC animals, your responsible for those tortoises.

Well, I've made my feelings clear. And they appear to be meant with a lot of hostility. So I'm going to make the choice to leave this thread before it turns into a flaming war. By guys!


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## Yvonne G (Dec 23, 2012)

Peter:

Anthropomorphism isn't applying *YOUR* feelings to an animal, it means giving "feelings" to an animal. Animals don't have "feelings." They look for food...they satisfy their need to breed...they rest...they warm themselves in the sun...they protect themselves when they are threatened...but they don't "feel."


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## RedfootsRule (Dec 23, 2012)

emysemys said:


> Peter:
> 
> Anthropomorphism isn't applying *YOUR* feelings to an animal, it means giving "feelings" to an animal. Animals don't have "feelings." They look for food...they satisfy their need to breed...they rest...they warm themselves in the sun...they protect themselves when they are threatened...but they don't "feel."



I know I said I was leaving this thread...But I really must say something about that.

If you even begin to state animals *don't* have feelings then you share the same opinion as animal abusers. (Not saying you are one, I know you aren't). But you share the same opinion: animal's don't have "feelings". Animals feel on every level as humans...To say they aren't capable of emotion is a very uneducated, unexperienced statement.

If you say they don't have feelings, then I guess we can abuse and neglect animals every way we like, right? There's nothing wrong with it?The situation where 18k rodents and 600 snakes were euthanized because of such extreme neglect; I guess that doesn't matter right? Because they don't have "feelings".

To say animals don't have feelings is to say that an animal can't like one person over another. My sisters macaw loves her, yet he bites me. What does that mean? He has certain feelings towards me, and certain feelings towards her. My cat loves me, yet dislikes other people. Doesn't that sound like feelings? No, its not just because I've raised her. I could give you a million example about animals having very complex feelings. But you've made up your mind in that matter.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 23, 2012)

Because in my opinion, animals don't experience the "feelings" such as humans experience, doesn't mean in any way shape or form that it is ok to abuse them. I have no idea where in the world that is coming from. 

A human body in a vegetative state doesn't have feelings, but the caregivers wouldn't dream of abusing that person (normally).

Wow. I'm just speechless.


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## Tom (Dec 23, 2012)

RedfootsRule said:


> I would believe any WC animal would rather die free then live caged for the rest of its life...
> 
> And yes, it is different then CB animals. CB animals are born into captivity; its all they know, they don't spend the days dreaming of what it was like. But WC are taken out of a beautiful (yet dangerous) life to live one of confinement.
> How fair does *that* sound?



THIS. These two paragraphs above are what I'm referring to. Few animals, and certainly not tortoises, have this human concept of "freedom". You are ascribing human emotions to animals that simply do not have them. Have you asked many tortoise if theyd rather be in a south American stew pot or my back yard. If I were a tortoise and had feelings and rational thoughts using deductive reasoning, I'd feel a lot better about living in YOUR back yard or mine. I simply don't agree with you that a wild caught tortoise in one of Tyler's large well designed well planted pens, sits there and dreams about what it used to be like out in the wild... If you do, that's okay, I'm just pointing out the differences in our ways of thinking for the purposes of this discussion.

I think I need to make my other point a little clearer: A man in the native country has a reason for removing that tortoise from the wild. He does it for money. A local exporter buys it from him. The exporter sells his tortoises to other countries for money. The importer/wholesaler buys them low and sells them high to retailers. The person you bought your CB hatchlings from, bought their foundation stock from one of these wholesaler/importers. Why did they buy their foundation stock? So they could breed them and sell their babies to people like you and me. So if you follow it back, it should be very obvious that YOU and anyone else with a pet tortoise, captive bred or otherwise, is responsible for those original animals being removed from the wild. Every person in the chain did what they did for financial gain. YOU, the end user, are the ultimate provider of that financial gain. The buck starts and stops with YOU Peter. The consumer. I don't understand how people feel totally innocent and uninvolved because the animal in their house or yard is captive bred. They are here because WE fund their removal from the wild.

Don't misunderstand. I'm not encouraging removal of tortoises from the wild. I also prefer CB stock in most cases, but I am honest and aware of my complicity it he WC pet trade too. As Tyler pointed out, the species that are still imported are NOT endangered in any way in the wild.

As for the suitcase full of radiateds... Those are almost certainly captive bred. They have to be smuggled because of stupid laws that don't help the animals in the first place. According to the people who have been to Madagascar to study wild radiateds the populations are doing just fine and hovering at around 6 million animals. Radiateds are seldom removed from the wild anymore because they breed successfully in captivity so well. There is no need to remove anymore BECAUSE we removed enough in the past. I would like to see this eventually achieved with all species, and I'm doing my part to contribute too. I just don't have all the fantasies about the thoughts of formerly wild tortoises that you do.

Further, there is no hostility or animosity here either. Just several people, including you, expressing their points of view. We are all friends here and we don't have to agree on everything all the time. Nobody is mad at you, and I hope you are not mad at anybody. I hope we can continue discussing this and exchanging our thoughts on the matter.


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## RedfootsRule (Dec 27, 2012)

Lets set the whole "anthropomorphism" idiocy aside....(Not a single word makes me angrier then the implication of animals having a "lack of emotion"). Heres my opinion in a nutshell (a few things stated I disagree with, but the over-all idea is VERY true.)

http://www.journalmcd.com/index.php/mcd/article/view/mcd.v6i2.3/257

And for those who insist on perpetrating the lies that animals do *not* have emotion, heres for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOLqVshIM4w

http://www.buzzfeed.com/expresident/stories-that-prove-animals-have-souls

The proof of emotion in animals has been studied in fish, whales, canines, birds, felines, rodents and primates. There has been a lot of scientific evidence (since apparently what we see every day in front of our eyes isn't enough) done within the field of neuroscience of animals to prove they are capable of emotion....Also, with rodents and primates, tests were done to prove that they would work to prevent the pain of another, e.g a macaque would not pull a chain that delivered food to itself if it caused a slight electric shock to another. Does this sound like just "looking for food, breeding, resting and warming themselves"? No study has yet been done (that I am aware of) of emotion in reptiles, but I believe it would be foolish indeed to assume they alone are void of emotion...


Tom, I'm quite sure if a tortoise had the choice, it undoubtedly WOULD choose the one that doesn't lead to the stew pot. But your still believing they would go to the stew pot...

If the importer doesn't buy the animals from the exporter, whats the exporter going to do? He's going to have a bunch of tortoises he doesn't know what to do with. In other words, he just made a bad investment, which he will not do again. In which case, he will not buy more tortoises from the man that captures them. You have successfully broken the chain. The chain can also start with those who buy the tortoises from the importer...or the importer...But it takes a _group_ effort here; not just one person can make a difference...This is why I wish people would understand.

The opinion seems to be that if the man doesn't collect tortoises for money, he'll just keep collecting but putting them in the stew pot...This is completely wrong. Comon guys...how easy is it for the man to go out and find a wild impressa/kinixys/, any other rare species? And how many OTHER options does he have for food? All of the native flora and fauna (the COMMON and easy to find kind) Is he really going to pick trekking through the jungle for hours on end to get the tortoise (which undoubtedly has very little meat) or rely on that big river full of big fish that make a big dinner? (Okay, we can say there might not be a river...Lets not get caught up in that. There is THOUSANDS of other options of food. Most native peoples are very resourceful...)

There was recently a survey done of _intotestudo fortenii_ in the wild, and zero specimens were found. To me, this indicate they are _very_ hard to find. (I have never been to these countries looking for tortoises myself, so I'm not going to give my "personal experience".)

Lets put this in familiar terms...Say your really hungry and you want cheese. You can go out to town and look for hours in different stores for a rare cheese (probably one thats growing mold ), or you can buy that nice big hunk of mozzarella....Which is at every supermarket in America !

I agree Tom, we don't have to agree on everything all the time. (Oops...I just agreed.) I feel like there is some hostility here, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm not mad at anyone, and I apologize if it came off that way to any of you.

So, if anyone would like, lets continue to express and contribute new thoughts to this debate....


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## Cowboy_Ken (Dec 27, 2012)

I don't know that I can comment here. I love eating meat. Many developed nations culturally consume turtle/tortoise. It's not a matter of going around looking for them, it's jus going to the local equivalent of Safeway. I know. I've been to the Hong Kong supermarket and gone to the meat department just to look for the turtles they offered. Imagine, if you will, soft shells bigger than dinner plates, swimming in over crowded tanks like cows at feed lot beef ranches. I love Ava my dog. Yet there are dog ranchers in Indonesia. If either could perceive life and death, I think they would all prefer safety.


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## RedfootsRule (Dec 27, 2012)

Cowboy_Ken said:


> I don't know that I can comment here. I love eating meat. Many developed nations culturally consume turtle/tortoise. It's not a matter of going around looking for them, it's jus going to the local equivalent of Safeway. I know. I've been to the Hong Kong supermarket and gone to the meat department just to look for the turtles they offered. Imagine, if you will, soft shells bigger than dinner plates, swimming in over crowded tanks like cows at feed lot beef ranches. I love Ava my dog. Yet there are dog ranchers in Indonesia. If either could perceive life and death, I think they would all prefer safety.



I'm having a hard time understanding your meaning...If I understand you correctly, your correct, they do consume turtles and tortoises. In fact, that is the number one reason so many species of soft-shell are more or less extinct...(Tell me, WHY must they eat them!) Your right....they can go to the local supermarket to get tortoises and turtles, so why would they look for them? However, this doesn't at all apply to the more primitive areas (which are likely the ones supplying the exporters) where there is no supermarket. Hong kong is not one of those areas however, so it doesn't well apply....

All animals can obviously perceive life and death...I'm saying death by stew-pot is not so common as people seem to believe.


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## Tom (Dec 27, 2012)

Peter, I'm sorry that you have some sort of preconceived emotion attached to the word "anthropomorphism" that makes you angry, but that does not make you any less guilty of it. It also does not make it "idiocy", because in fact anthropomorphism leads to a lot of stupid decisions and causes harm to animals. Two examples: All the people who get a second russian tortoise because they think their tortoise needs a "friend". Example two: The youtube video of a leopard tortoise "helping" another tortoise who was flipped on its back, by flipping it back over. We actually argued this one here on the forum. It was obvious that these were two males fighting. The upright male had likely flipped the other one just before the video starts and he was showing every sign of male tortoise aggression in the book. He simply rammed his helpless upside down rival and it happened to turn him right side up. He then proceeded to attempt to chase his rival out of his territory. The "animal lover" crowd saw this as one tortoise helping another. Anthropomorphism. Any beginning student of tortoise behavior could see that it was one tortoise ATTACKING another. I will pre-grant you that a lack of anthropomorphism can also lead to bad decisions regarding animals. I've seen that too.

No one is arguing that animals don't have emotions. I'm a freakin' animal trainer by profession. You think I don't know more about animal's thoughts and emotions than your average Joe on the street? What I am arguing is your assertion that any tortoise would have the ability to reason the difference between "die free than live in a cage the rest of its life...", or the "fair"ness of being brought into captivity. Do animals have emotions? Yes. Do they have the ability to use logic and deductive reasoning to compare and contrast their current captive situation with their former wild situation and formulate a list of pros and cons? No. No they don't. Some people do not read enough into animal thoughts and behavior. YOU are reading TOO MUCH into it, in my opinion. Apes, elephants and dolphins can, to some degree, reason. Tortoises and other reptiles, not so much. Bugs? Nope. Parrots? Certainly. Alligators? No. Dogs? Sure. Etc... In short saying that it is sometimes a bad thing when humans incorrectly ascribe human emotions to animals is NOT the same thing as saying animals have no emotions. You made that leap for some reason, and that is part of why we are arguing. I'm not saying that animals don't have "feelings". They do. I'm saying that tortoises do not have the ability to use reason and logic as a human does, because they don't.

As for your attempt to absolve yourself and others from blame for tortoises being taken from the wild? I say, "supply and demand". With no demand (which is ultimately what you, me and other pet keepers offer), there would be no supply offered. Sure this vehicle has lots of parts, but you and I are what DRIVE this vehicle. This vehicle (the pet trade: all of it, CB and WC) would not exist without you and me and others like us who spend money on pets and pet supplies. Whether YOUR particular animals are CB or WC is irrelevant in my opinion. We ALL fuel the fire. We are ALL part of the same culture or demographic group. If you me and all the others did not like keeping tortoises in captivity and spend our money on it, none would ever be removed from the wild for the pet trade. But we do, so they are. BTW, I find it noteworthy that I have no WC animals. The two species that I currently keep have not ben WC or imported since the 90s. Yet I still feel the way I do about this issue. Again, I believe CB to be superior for many reasons, but I do not share your across the board condemnation of any animals being removed from the wild. Endangered species (truly endangered ones, NOT stupid politically listed ones, like radiateds) sure. They should be restricted, regulated and protected. But common, non-endangered ones like pancakes or russians, I have no problem with in controlled numbers. No species should be depleted from the wild ever, but I have no problem with a carefully observed and adjusted "harvest" of species that can handle it.

And to reaffirm, just conversation here, no hostility. Just making my points and taking in your rebuttals. I think discussions like this are very beneficial. Everyone learns from it. Everyone sees new thoughts and points of view. Everyone will see where different people stand on different issues. Some will agree with either side, and that's okay, but we all get to see and experience each others side, and THAT is what I find beneficial. I may not agree with all of your points, but I do like to hear them. This back and forth "arguing" or discussion, helps me (and others) better understand exactly where you are coming from and what, specifically, you mean by some of your statements. Its all good, in other words.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Dec 27, 2012)

RedfootsRule said:


> I'm having a hard time understanding your meaning...If I understand you correctly, your correct, they do consume turtles and tortoises. In fact, that is the number one reason so many species of soft-shell are more or less extinct...(Tell me, WHY must they eat them!) Your right....they can go to the local supermarket to get tortoises and turtles, so why would they look for them? However, this doesn't at all apply to the more primitive areas (which are likely the ones supplying the exporters) where there is no supermarket. Hong kong is not one of those areas however, so it doesn't well apply....
> 
> All animals can obviously perceive life and death...I'm saying death by stew-pot is not so common as people seem to believe.



Have you not had Cajun snapping turtle? Not pretty, but reality. The most successful turtle, the red ear slider, has now made its way to every continent on earth, (except that frozen one). While the exporting from the USA of res adults has remained steady over the years, exports of young ones, presumably for pets is on the rise. I mention this because although beef is a wasteful, heavy impact animal for us Americans to eat, we have a hard time changing this very young culture. That's why turtles and tortoise continue to be eaten in their native lands or wherever they are most easily procured. 
And there is the very real concept that the rarer something is, the tastier. I don't share any of the views of the people's I've been talking about, I'm just trying to share the views because you asked why.


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## ascott (Dec 27, 2012)

> Ascott, I can't tell if your agreeing with me or not?



Absolutely I am with you Peter....also, animals do feel, think, calculate, harbor memories that cause them to change their behavior---react to loss of environment---loss of companions---and change in their world. Nothing anyone here says will ever change that belief with me (so don't bother trying ) 

Also, it is so easy for we "humans" to say that if it were not for us the world would go to hell in a handbag...seriously, I say we perform as both hell and the handbag....so, yes, if we stopped slopping around in the remaining natural parts of the world-- raping and pillaging from the other creatures --with just as much equal rights as this human species, then we would be able to give our human egos a rest....however, it is so easy for folks to say now that well things are so messed up now, why bother? Bother folks, bother.....

So Peter, yes---I am with you.


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## Jacqui (Dec 28, 2012)

What would you say to somebody who gets a tortoise and then wants to put it into a 10 gallon tank? Would you give him your own tortoise? I think you would want to know he has the correct setup to give that precious tortoise you care so much about a chance at survivial would you not? For me personally, I see leaving the wild tortoise out in many of it's natural habitats as just that. I would like to see us fixing the problem and then putting the wildlife both plants and animals that are in danger, back in. Too many times we say we are working on correcting the problem only to have it take so much longer to correct, to be more complexed a problem then first thought, or to be unfixable at the time. Meanwhile those animals and plants are ever losing the struggle to survive out there.




Cowboy_Ken said:


> RedfootsRule said:
> 
> 
> > All animals can obviously perceive life and death...I'm saying death by stew-pot is not so common as people seem to believe.
> ...



I live in Nebraska, were we love our beef. Yet, snapping turtle is also on the menu. A couple of years back I recall seeing an outing the state's Game and Parks was putting on for women. One of the things they were going to be doing was catching soft shelled turtles and eating them. I think even in America, turtles are being consumed one by one much more often then we like to think.




ascott said:


> ....however, it is so easy for folks to say now that well things are so messed up now, why bother? Bother folks, bother.....



I think everybody in here is "bothering". It may be they are "bothering" at the level of just keeping their own animals living in as high of a quality lifestyle as they can. It may be those who are "bothering" by sharing their knowledge or even just by giving each other encouragement. They may be "bothering" by donating money and time to nature saving causes, by breeding these animals to take pressure off the wild ones, or they may be breeding to keep some of the more rare animals surviving so they may on day go back to the wild. They may be "bothering" by experimenting to unlock the secrets to what makes these animals tick and what they really need to survive. They may be "bothering" by going out and teaching non-tortoise folks, especially the children. There are just so many ways everybody in here are already "bothering". I think sometimes we fail to be aware of those ways or to give credit to those folks. Success in keeping areas natural or getting them fixed, is not going to be coming from the folks "on the frontline", the ones who will get all the credit when and if it works, but rather from all the folks on the lower levels of "bothering" who are often made to feel like they are not "bothering" so why do it.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Dec 28, 2012)

Something I realize that I left out in my late night, Christmas candy altered state rumblings, is that the critters offered in the markets are often collected from the wild by native people for survival cash. Yes, there is little incentive to eat a wild caught tortoise from a food quality stand point when that same tortoise will provide cold, hard cash to buy dry goods or other more practical food stuff and at a better price. The choice animals are sold as food, the lesser ones sold as pets. No one raises a bummer calf to eat it when a strong healthy one is offered. And food animals sell at a better price at the beginning of the loop. Kerosine and gasoline are expensive needs in the bush. Here in the states, faced with a home foreclosure, think how tempting it would be to collect fence lizards if they brought in $10.00 each.


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## Jacqui (Dec 28, 2012)

Cowboy_Ken said:


> Something I realize that I left out in my late night, Christmas candy altered state rumblings,



 Are we going to have to limit your holiday candy intake?


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## Cowboy_Ken (Dec 28, 2012)

Jacqui said:


> Are we going to have to limit your holiday candy intake?



Normally, I don't eat candy. Lately I've been grazing alot and candy and cookies seem to be everywhere!


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## Tom (Dec 28, 2012)

Cowboy_Ken said:


> Jacqui said:
> 
> 
> > Are we going to have to limit your holiday candy intake?
> ...



I have no will power against holiday treats...


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## RedfootsRule (Dec 28, 2012)

Tom said:


> Peter, I'm sorry that you have some sort of preconceived emotion attached to the word "anthropomorphism" that makes you angry, but that does not make you any less guilty of it. It also does not make it "idiocy", because in fact anthropomorphism leads to a lot of stupid decisions and causes harm to animals. Two examples: All the people who get a second russian tortoise because they think their tortoise needs a "friend". Example two: The youtube video of a leopard tortoise "helping" another tortoise who was flipped on its back, by flipping it back over. We actually argued this one here on the forum. It was obvious that these were two males fighting. The upright male had likely flipped the other one just before the video starts and he was showing every sign of male tortoise aggression in the book. He simply rammed his helpless upside down rival and it happened to turn him right side up. He then proceeded to attempt to chase his rival out of his territory. The "animal lover" crowd saw this as one tortoise helping another. Anthropomorphism. Any beginning student of tortoise behavior could see that it was one tortoise ATTACKING another. I will pre-grant you that a lack of anthropomorphism can also lead to bad decisions regarding animals. I've seen that too.
> 
> No one is arguing that animals don't have emotions. I'm a freakin' animal trainer by profession. You think I don't know more about animal's thoughts and emotions than your average Joe on the street? What I am arguing is your assertion that any tortoise would have the ability to reason the difference between "die free than live in a cage the rest of its life...", or the "fair"ness of being brought into captivity. Do animals have emotions? Yes. Do they have the ability to use logic and deductive reasoning to compare and contrast their current captive situation with their former wild situation and formulate a list of pros and cons? No. No they don't. Some people do not read enough into animal thoughts and behavior. YOU are reading TOO MUCH into it, in my opinion. Apes, elephants and dolphins can, to some degree, reason. Tortoises and other reptiles, not so much. Bugs? Nope. Parrots? Certainly. Alligators? No. Dogs? Sure. Etc... In short saying that it is sometimes a bad thing when humans incorrectly ascribe human emotions to animals is NOT the same thing as saying animals have no emotions. You made that leap for some reason, and that is part of why we are arguing. I'm not saying that animals don't have "feelings". They do. I'm saying that tortoises do not have the ability to use reason and logic as a human does, because they don't.
> 
> ...



Tom,

From Yvonne's post:

Anthropomorphism isn't applying YOUR feelings to an animal, it means giving "feelings" to an animal. Animals don't have "feelings." They look for food...they satisfy their need to breed...they rest...they warm themselves in the sun...they protect themselves when they are threatened...but they don't "feel."

So please understand first, I was not addressing your view of anthropomorphism, but yvonne's, since every word of her post seemed to say animals have no emotion.

I'm sorry if I'm somehow misguided in believing that through this, the meaning was animals do not have emotion. Clearly, that is Yvonne's understanding of the word "anthropomorphism". I was addressing *her* view of it, not yours. I understand perfectly well that you don't believe reptiles have a sense of logic and reason, and thats your version of anthropomorphism...(We all seem to have a different idea of what that word means)....We will have to agree to disagree however, because I DO believe reptiles have a sense of reason.

Honestly, nobody can accuse another of being an "anthropomorphosist" because that would be a complete matter of opinion. Calling someone else an anthropomorphosist is saying they are applying human feelings to an animal; but that would be *assuming* animals do not have "human feelings" (e.g a tortoise has no sense of freedom). You accusing me of being an anthropomorphosist has no meaning, because it is your opinion that tortoises have no sense of freedom; it is not mine, and it is not shared by everyone here.

Tom, you keep saying tortoises have no sense of reason or freedom; from your post: "I'm saying that tortoises do not have the ability to use reason and logic as a human does, because they don't." Your leaving no room for opinion there, because you seem to be saying no matter what, tortoises don't have a sense of freedom or reason. How do EITHER of us know? No study has yet been done to prove it right or wrong. We are basing this completely off of our respective observations. Mine tells me they do, yours says they don't.

I will repeat, it is a complete matter of opinion to say people are ascribing human emotions to an animal, because that would be assuming animals do not have those emotions. As I said, many studies have been done on *other* species to prove they have emotion, but not yet has one been done on reptiles.

I don't know how it can be denied that tortoises don't know the difference between captivity and a wild life. Here is your difference: wild life = roaming free, wherever they want, no boundaries (okay, maybe a river). Captivity = a wall on all four sides and no way of getting past it. How would they *NOT* know the difference?

But honestly, lets pay no attention to how the animal might feel about being taken from the wild, because clearly it is a debate in itself that it would even care, and then its another debate that if it cares, whether the animals feelings have any matter to us. So lets drop all of the "anthropomorphism", "personification", and animal emotion crap. It really isn't beneficial to this debate one way or another. 




Tom, I'm continually thinking in my mind....And I can _in no way_ understand how you believe that anyone who owns a captive bred animal is the reason for WC animals...Lets take a look at this.

If I _and everyone else on earth_ stop buying CB animals, what result will it have on WC animals? None. If anything, it will increase the demand. However, if we all _stop buying_ WC animals, there will be no more reason for WC animals in the pet trade. There is no way to sneak past this or deny it. It is solid logic...

If everyone just stops buying WC animals, (except for the ones needed for possible "assurance colonies", which should only be purchased by those that plan on contributing them to breeding, not for pets) they won't capture them for the pet trade anymore. Thats about all that can be said about it.

We share the same opinion; that neither one of us would mind controlled capture on the species that can handle it. But there is no such thing as controlled capture. When it is offered, some follow it legally. This then increases the demand for the animals offered, fueling more illegal capture of the animals. There will never be restricted capture. Humans are to greedy.


Jacqui,

You seem to believe that "leaving the tortoise out in the wild" is leaving it to death. As I've already explained, its not. What would you do? Are you going to capture every tortoise in the world to have it live in your backyard instead of in the wild because "its safer there"? If your worried about the tortoise in the wild, you should start using no paper cups, paper plates, paper towels - anything made from paper. Start using the organic kind made from elephant poop. Because if you use these products, unfortunately, you are fueling the fire thats burning these tortoises in the wild (e.g deforestation. Your also fueling the other threat of being taken for the pet trade. Your the fuel for both of the fires that threaten them.)

I understand what you mean. I would love to see us fix the problem. The only way to fix it is to protect them in the wild. (Go to the url I posted for more info on why ex-situ conservation does not work)
Lets take a look at why captive breeding on most species won't work.

One problem with captive breeding is that it diverts attention from _in situ_ conservation. Captive breeding can be used beneficially as a supplement; the problem is, it seems to be used as an alternative! What sense is there in treating the symptoms but not the cause? If we focus all of our efforts on _ex situ_ conservation instead of _in situ_, what will happen? We seem to believe the captive breeding is the best because "one day we can reintroduce them to the wild." Have you ever thought about this; when we IGNORE _in situ_ conservation and focus on _ex situ_ as an alternative, what wild will be left? We seem to believe that we can reintroduce them in 10 years; if something isn't done to protect WILD HABITATS, there will be no wild to reintroduce them to. Thus, your years of captive breeding are now pointless.

Captive breeding and reintroduction also have the potential to decrease genetic variability within species, and transmit exogenous pathogens to wild populations. (You have to be EXTREMELY CAREFUL when releasing a tortoise of an already very endangered species into the wild). They are also done without any attention payed to the species minimum viable population size. No one has done any study on just how many animals would be needed for an eventual reintroduction (which, by the time that would happen, we must assume that all wild tortoises would be dead.)

To combat the decrease of genetic diversity, we would have to take every endangered tortoise that is in captivity and contribute it to captive breeding (and probably multiply it by 2 or 3, but lets forget that part). Then, that whole little kink of actually being successful at captive breeding (successful meaning continually reproducing large clutches, not just getting 1-2 hatchlings a year because we got lucky, as it seems to be with species such as impressa and erosa.) Then, reintroduction would have to be successful, (which is unlikely).

Think of what could happen if all the money that is wasted on _ex situ_ conservation was contributed to _in situ_. Every time TSA spends 3 million dollars on their new facility in (insert country of the year here).

As I said; captive breeding can be an experimental supplement, it cannot be an alternative.

Taking tortoises from the wild to live in our backyards is harmful to them in every sense of the word (unless you have the pure intention of contributing them to captive breeding populations). I know we want to go with the starfish theory, that it mattered to that one tortoise. And it does. It's a sad story, what happens to that one tortoise. But the really sad story, is whats going to happen to _that whole species_.


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## TylerStewart (Dec 28, 2012)

Good grief, Peter, this has gotten so far out in left field I'm not even gonna try to catch up with it all (it'd take me 2 hours to fix all your oddball assumptions and accusations, and then you would just argue it all back), but you mentioned that forstens were difficult to find in the wild.... Can you tell me when the last time forstens were imported? You act like all species are imported with no regard for their wild populations which isn't true. The two imported most are redfoots and Russians, probably followed by Greeks, none of which are threatened "in real life" in the wild. There's few other species that are imported at all, really. 

You also have this idea in your head that us as a group of tortoise lovers, half of which probably still living with mom and dad, can completely solve the problems of these tiny African countries clearing forests mostly to use the land to grow food (not to make paper plates). You think people haven't been trying to stop deforestation for decades? Can you name me a facility that TSA spent 3 million dollars to build in a foreign country? Can you name me a facility that TSA spent $500,000 on in a foreign country?


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## RedfootsRule (Dec 28, 2012)

TylerStewart said:


> Good grief, Peter, this has gotten so far out in left field I'm not even gonna try to catch up with it all (it'd take me 2 hours to fix all your oddball assumptions and accusations, and then you would just argue it all back), but you mentioned that forstens were difficult to find in the wild.... Can you tell me when the last time forstens were imported? You act like all species are imported with no regard for their wild populations which isn't true. The two imported most are redfoots and Russians, probably followed by Greeks, none of which are threatened "in real life" in the wild. There's few other species that are imported at all, really.
> 
> You also have this idea in your head that us as a group of tortoise lovers, half of which probably still living with mom and dad, can completely solve the problems of these tiny African countries clearing forests mostly to use the land to grow food (not to make paper plates). You think people haven't been trying to stop deforestation for decades? Can you name me a facility that TSA spent 3 million dollars to build in a foreign country? Can you name me a facility that TSA spent $500,000 on in a foreign country?



So far out in the left field...Okay. I'm definitely going to say you have bothered to read none of anyones posts....The last time forstens were imported? Honestly, I don't know Tyler. I don't. I do know they were however; are you going to tell me this had no effect on their wild populations?

MANY species were imported, with no regard whatsoever to their wild populations....But if you don't want to bother to "fix all of my oddball accusations and assumptions", I won't bother to do the same with yours. Yes, I would argue it all back. Hence, this is a "debate" thread.

Impressed tortoises are WC. Hingebacks are WC. Not nearly all species are being bred in captivity, and even fewer are being bred successfully. Yet we have most species in captivity; where do they come from? Answer: they are WC. Or did the stork drop them off....?

Red foots are now listed by the IUCN as vulnerable...That means nothing right? I suppose you seek to discredit them; I'm sure you know much more about red foots in the wild, correct? They have no danger "in the real world" (your world). Redfoots are vulnerable mainly because of the pet trade....Yes, there is a myriad of other threats, but that is the main one. That is why they are listed as vulnerable.

Look on TSA's website....Goal of $1.6m for their "Turtle survival center". I'm not saying thats right or wrong; I hope they succeed in all their goals, but frankly, I don't see it working. TSA does to much _ex-situ_ and virtually no _in situ_. Unfortunately, this is because its run by extreme tortoise/turtle hobbyists and not politicians.....The info for what I said is right on their website, buddy. Please look for it before you accuse me of misinformation. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what you've said, it honestly sounds like you don't have a clue how to rebutt what I have said. It sounds to me like you don't know how to prove it wrong. I would very much like you to try, because I would appreciate your ACTUAL point of view, instead of your opinion that I'm just writing a bunch of gibberish.

Honestly Tyler, I don't know how to go about in situ conservation...I don't. I'm not a politician. What I'm arguing, is that taking WC tortoises is damaging to their plight as a species. No, I don't have a dream that all of us, or the half of us "living with mommy and daddy" can smooth over everything in these tiny african countries. If you believe that, you have completely misunderstood my posts.

And here we were trying to keep hostility out of this thread...


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## TylerStewart (Dec 28, 2012)

Nobody is getting hostile but you, the way I see it. You said that TSA spends 3 million on facilities in foreign countries.... You may not realize this, but you can build things in other countries for a tiny fraction of the cost of building one here, and if their main facility here is supposed to be 1.6 million, do you think they've spent 3 million on one (or multiple) overseas like you said? The TSA is smart enough to know that assurance colonies are needed in the US because so many of the natural habitats are a lost cause. You don't seem to grasp that. You can spend "X dollars" here setting up a facility and knowing you'll at least keep the species alive, or you can spend the same "X dollars" protecting native habitat which might protect that habitat for 3 or 4 months. 

Forstens are virtually never imported, and by far their greatest threat is food markets in China. There's more eaten in a week in Asia than there has ever been imported into the US, so by my math, they'd be much better off being imported here where at least the effort it made to produce them. 

Impressa are almost never imported at all besides a recent shipment and a PAIR that came in a year ago (mixed into an elongated shipment) that I ended up with, and were forwarded on to the Behler center for captive breeding. You think that pair was better left in the wild? Prior to that, I can't remember them coming in at all. They are also a food item tortoise, better off being imported to the US than left in Asia. 

Hingebacks are imported in small numbers and aren't threatened in the wild. Just because redfoots were recently listed as something (which I'm sure you still are salivating about in excitement because it finally helps you make your point) doesn't mean they're threatened. My landscaper from South America was here a few weeks ago and saw my redfoots and started cussing in Spanish and said those were the "damn tortoises that were always eating his mom's garden down there that they used to smack and kill with a shovel as a pest." If you look at Google maps of South America, and then layer over it the redfoot's natural range, you'll see how much vast space has never been touched and won't be any time soon. Besides the fact, half or more of the imported redfoots are farm raised and not even wild caught.


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## RedfootsRule (Dec 28, 2012)

http://www.tortoisereserve.org/research/Bred_Torts_Body2.htm/
Heres some good reading, with some actual real statistics...

TylerStewart: "Just because redfoots were recently listed as something (which I'm sure you still are salivating about in excitement because it finally helps you make your point) doesn't mean they're threatened."

Sounds hostile to me, does it not?

Do you have any proof to back up your outlandish claim that "more forstens are eaten in a week in Asia then have ever been imported into the US"? Yes, those eaten would be better off being sent here to be produced...If your intention is a serious attempt at breeding a rare and endangered species, starting out with a WC pair of tortoises, and you ACTUALLY HAVE the funding, knowledge, and facilities for it, I'll clap you on your back down the road.

Tyler, basically your point seems to be that no tortoises are imported...There was a thread here a few months ago about impressed tortoises....The OP got about 25 imports. Where'd he get them? Well, um, err....I thought they never came in anymore?

The "natural space" maps, or the "wild range" maps have next to no use....These maps are where they have been found, they do not in any way inhabit that entire range. They are completely misleading, if you actually give a second of thought to the matter.

As I said, you attempt to say that no tortoises are WC anymore through your post. Then why bother with this thread? This thread is about "Wild caught or Captive bred"? Which one should you buy? Doing so recognizes there are wild caught tortoises (which everyone who has been in the herpetology community for five seconds knows). If it is your goal to prove that untrue...Then I'm not sure what your point is here. You'd be telling us we're all wasting our time because we're debating about something that doesn't exist...


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## TylerStewart (Dec 28, 2012)

RedfootsRule said:


> http://www.tortoisereserve.org/research/Bred_Torts_Body2.htm/
> Heres some good reading, with some actual real statistics...
> 
> TylerStewart: "Just because redfoots were recently listed as something (which I'm sure you still are salivating about in excitement because it finally helps you make your point) doesn't mean they're threatened."
> ...



I guess if you are a super sensitive person, then yes, that could be taken as hostile. They're not threatened, and they breed like rabbits. 



RedfootsRule said:


> Tyler, basically your point seems to be that no tortoises are imported...There was a thread here a few months ago about impressed tortoises....The OP got about 25 imports. Where'd he get them? Well, um, err....I thought they never came in anymore?



Ahem.... 



> Impressa are almost never imported at all besides a recent shipment and a PAIR that came in a year ago (mixed into an elongated shipment) that I ended up with





RedfootsRule said:


> The "natural space" maps, or the "wild range" maps have next to no use....These maps are where they have been found, they do not in any way inhabit that entire range. They are completely misleading, if you actually give a second of thought to the matter.
> 
> As I said, you attempt to say that no tortoises are WC anymore through your post. Then why bother with this thread? This thread is about "Wild caught or Captive bred"? Which one should you buy? Doing so recognizes there are wild caught tortoises (which everyone who has been in the herpetology community for five seconds knows). If it is your goal to prove that untrue...Then I'm not sure what your point is here. You'd be telling us we're all wasting our time because we're debating about something that doesn't exist...



When did I ever say that no tortoises are imported? I feel like all I've done in this thread it talk about which species are being imported. If the South American countries that redfoots are native to decide that they are dwindling in numbers, they'll cut off exports which is what generally happens with any species from any country. I understand that you're thriving on this thread, getting more attention from it than you've got since your last birthday, but you have yet to make a point that isn't a fictional creation, starting from the two leopard tortoises fighting that you witnessed as a friendly helping hand. Isn't it almost midnight in Florida? You're way too excited about this.


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## RedfootsRule (Dec 28, 2012)

TylerStewart said:


> RedfootsRule said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.tortoisereserve.org/research/Bred_Torts_Body2.htm/
> ...



-Sigh-....

I won't bother to quote all of your posts where you have stated exactly that.....

When in history has the country of origin of a species cut off export when they feel they are threatened? Usually, the situation is more that the country of origin couldn't care less (obviously it varies between countries).

Please, I ask this sincerely, learn to speak nicely to others before you contaminate this thread even FURTHER. "I understand that you're thriving on this thread, getting more attention from it than you've got since your last birthday, but you have yet to make a point that isn't a fictional creation, starting from the two leopard tortoises fighting that you witnessed as a friendly helping hand. Isn't it almost midnight in Florida? Your way too excited over this" Tyler, please, learn to present yourself in a MATURE manner....Thriving on this thread? Thats funny, I thought the situation was I was debating while the other party was made up of 2 moderators and 1 rather reputable member of this forum...If anything, I feel like I'm giving myself a bad reputation. But none of the REST OF US are being hostile. We're trying to have a civilized discussion, as Tom has stated about 12 times, and your jumping in accusing me of "fictional creations", then accusing me of saying things I didn't.

And I'm proven right! You didn't read any of the threads! I witnessed the two leopard tortoises fighting as a helping hand? That was Tom's post. I made absolutely no comment in regard to it. Please, learn to READ OUR POSTS before you accuse me of fictional creations!

Any of what you are saying about me has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS DEBATE. This debate is Wild Caught or Captive Bred tortoises. Your personal attack on me for who knows what reason is completely uncalled for and unwelcome.

Please, the rest of us are attempting to have a beneficial debate. If you wish to contribute to it, start by reading others posts and responding to them in a kind manner. I would absolutely HATE to see this thread closed because your filling it with insults.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Dec 28, 2012)

Are we just gonna ignore them commies eating them?


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## RedfootsRule (Dec 28, 2012)

Cowboy_Ken said:


> Are we just gonna ignore them commies eating them?



Er, what? Sorry cowboy, I'm from florida. Im told that "we da chiz" down here; I don't understand texas talk . What are commies and what are they eating?


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## Cowboy_Ken (Dec 28, 2012)

Really, I could care less about people's political attraction. It just seems no one is bothering with the edible aspect of turtles and tortoises and instead focusing on the pet aspect which seems funner because our egos get stroked.




RedfootsRule said:


> Er, what? Sorry cowboy, I'm from florida. Im told that "we da chiz" down here; I don't understand texas talk . What are commies and what are they eating?



Lol. I'm from Oregon. Unlike Texas, we believe chili has beans in it. Commies=Communists. China= largest communist country this side ofâ€¦well, china. And they eat a lot of turtles and tortoise. If I could find my docs. on the Internet machine, I'd be happy to share the export numbers with you of critters from the USA to china.


For food. That we see as pets.


http://www.turtlesurvival.org/blog/...new-turtle-and-tortoise-facilities-in-myanmar

Maybe this will lead to I wine those dang burn ex-situ TSA facilities.


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## acrantophis (Dec 28, 2012)

This thread is crazy, but awesome! Both sides have good points. Though, with terrestrial chelonians, I feel there is no sustainable harvest. Those animals occur in smaller numbers than say fish or shrimp. They don't reproduce in large numbers. They take a long time to reach sexual maturity. They have a high juvenile mortality rate. And so on.
Other species rely on those chelonians for their survival. Many species eat young reptiles. Some specialize in it. Why do we, as a species, feel it ok to harvest such a fragile species? I travel a lot to the tropics. Over the decades i have seen drastic declines in the abundance of so many familiar species. Try to find an amazon basin green tree boa in the amazon basin! i have, and im good at finding snakes. There are none. Why? Because, in 1998 a wild caught green tree was $4000. 
I have hiked all over. My wife and i are amateur wildlife photographers. We scour neo tropical and Malaysian jungles and have never seen a terrestrial chelonian. I have covered a lot of ground in pFrance, Spain, Egypt, and have never seen a wild tortoise. I find snakes, lizards etc... Never a tortoise. 
I was in the business a long time. In the 80's and 90's, I would buy imported herp and tropical fish in NYC/NJ airports as they came in and wholesale them to pet stores. Entire styro boxes would often contain just a bunch of dead "somethings". It could be just 500 guppies or maybe 15 giant tridacna clams or 10 Solomon island skinks. Either way it sucked. Captive breeding became popular around then and it was much more expensive. At first, many stores wouldn't pay $120 for a captive bred boa. Now, it would be difficult to find a wild caught boa. Back Then farm raising in Surinam and other countries became popular. Particularly iguanas and boas. Pseudo-wild caught. Why not with tortoises? Perhaps there is a compromise?


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## Cowboy_Ken (Dec 28, 2012)

Perhaps there is a compromise?[/QUOTE]

WC/CH?


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## StudentoftheReptile (Dec 29, 2012)

I think Peter just needs to stop keeping animals.


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## RedfootsRule (Dec 29, 2012)

Cowboy_Ken said:


> Really, I could care less about people's political attraction. It just seems no one is bothering with the edible aspect of turtles and tortoises and instead focusing on the pet aspect which seems funner because our egos get stroked.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I haven't given much thought to the "edible aspect" because I don't know much about it in China. I have never heard much of tortoises being eaten there. From what I've heard, I always assumed it was terrapins and soft shells. If you could find the export numbers, it would be nice to see.
Hold on, texas believes chili doesn't have beans in it? How else can you have chili........?





acrantophis said:


> This thread is crazy, but awesome! Both sides have good points. Though, with terrestrial chelonians, I feel there is no sustainable harvest. Those animals occur in smaller numbers than say fish or shrimp. They don't reproduce in large numbers. They take a long time to reach sexual maturity. They have a high juvenile mortality rate. And so on.
> Other species rely on those chelonians for their survival. Many species eat young reptiles. Some specialize in it. Why do we, as a species, feel it ok to harvest such a fragile species? I travel a lot to the tropics. Over the decades i have seen drastic declines in the abundance of so many familiar species. Try to find an amazon basin green tree boa in the amazon basin! i have, and im good at finding snakes. There are none. Why? Because, in 1998 a wild caught green tree was $4000.
> I have hiked all over. My wife and i are amateur wildlife photographers. We scour neo tropical and Malaysian jungles and have never seen a terrestrial chelonian. I have covered a lot of ground in pFrance, Spain, Egypt, and have never seen a wild tortoise. I find snakes, lizards etc... Never a tortoise.
> I was in the business a long time. In the 80's and 90's, I would buy imported herp and tropical fish in NYC/NJ airports as they came in and wholesale them to pet stores. Entire styro boxes would often contain just a bunch of dead "somethings". It could be just 500 guppies or maybe 15 giant tridacna clams or 10 Solomon island skinks. Either way it sucked. Captive breeding became popular around then and it was much more expensive. At first, many stores wouldn't pay $120 for a captive bred boa. Now, it would be difficult to find a wild caught boa. Back Then farm raising in Surinam and other countries became popular. Particularly iguanas and boas. Pseudo-wild caught. Why not with tortoises? Perhaps there is a compromise?



That is another good point. Tortoises are very fragile with reproduction...As you said, they have a very high mortality rate, and are on the menu from many species. They take a long time to reproduce. Those are even more good reasons we can't take them for the pet trade. They don't have the numbers or the reproduction rate to sustain it. 




StudentoftheReptile said:


> I think Peter just needs to stop keeping animals.



Student, if you have somehow, through reading the posts here (which I'm convinced you did not) gathered the idiotic conclusion that I feel it is somehow immoral to keep animals in captivity...So be it. I have explicitly stated many times I am not, but if thats the conclusion you come to, I couldn't care less. However, this is a debate on "Wild Caught or Captive bred?". Your opinion that I need to stop keeping animals is completely unwelcome. If you actually have something beneficial or thoughtful to contribute, please do so. I would love to see it. Your opinion I need to "stop keeping animals." is not welcome, however. This is meant to be a civilized argument (which apparently people have problems with). Your single sentence post is meant to do nothing more then to start an argument, and you know it is. It is unneeded and immature. Take it somewhere else.


I suppose, in the beginning, this thread turned to if it was moral to take wild caught animals to the pet trade. It has evolved to be about how to conserve the species (which I suppose I am slightly at fault for.) Maybe we need to get back on track.
Is it moral to keep Wild caught animals?

No, in my opinion. But, it is completely species specific. For example:

-Common species.
In every sense of the word, I think it is wrong to import wild caught specimens of species that are already mass-produced in captivity. Russians and red foots, just for an example. There is NO purpose to take them, and it will eventually lead to species endangerment. Personally, I say it should be banned as far as the pet trade is concerned.

-Rare or endangered species.
It completely depends on what your intentions are, I suppose. Do you want one as a pet? No, I believe that to be completely wrong. If you want a tortoise, keep a more common kind. You don't need to keep a rare tortoise and fuel the removal of them from the wild, just because you want one as a pet.
However, if you wish to breed them, I think it is worthwhile trying. The rarer species need to have successful breeding in captivity. But it should only be undertaken if you have the proper funds, knowledge, and facilities.


This whole thing is a very difficult discussion....I do not believe captive breeding will work well, and I do believe we need to do more _in situ_ conservation. But at the same time, I feel like conservation of their wild habitats is a losing battle that we may never win...In which case, it is absolutely essential to have captive breeding, as it is obviously the only way. I've been stating reasons I don't believe captive breeding and reintroduction will be successful. But this is because of a lack of information. Has any study ever been done on, as I said, the target species' minimum viable population size? I've never heard mention of it. Genetic diversity? The threat of introduction an exogenous pathogen? I'm not a vet or biologist, so I couldn't give you that answer. Its just another thing to think of. The approach just seems to be to breed them and expect it to work...If ever I find the answer to these questions, it may sway my opinion on captive breeding. But I've never seen it, and never heard mention of it.

But in the end, my opinion is the same, regardless of captive breeding. They SHOULD NOT be taken from the wild for the "pet trade" (in other words, those who want them just cause they're cute and colorful). Thats pretty much all I have to say about it.


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## FLINTUS (Dec 29, 2012)

WOW! This had all settled down, no one had posted for a while and I brought it up to the top and BOOM! The war starts...
My thought line on this is exactly of RedFootaRule's, I believe they should be CB for common species but I think that for breeding projects it is OK for minor collection from the wild.


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## RedfootsRule (Dec 29, 2012)

FLINTUS said:


> WOW! This had all settled down, no one had posted for a while and I brought it up to the top and BOOM! The war starts...
> My thought line on this is exactly of RedFootaRule's, I believe they should be CB for common species but I think that for breeding projects it is OK for minor collection from the wild.



I brought the conversation back to life, but others have felt the need to start a war, sadly....


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## Jacqui (Dec 29, 2012)

I don't believe a war has started, but folks please let's not attack each other, rather debate each other's opinions.


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## jtrux (Dec 29, 2012)

RedfootsRule said:


> Hold on, texas believes chili doesn't have beans in it? How else can you have chili........?




Chili can have beans in it, I just won't eat it.


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## dmarcus (Dec 29, 2012)

jtrux said:


> RedfootsRule said:
> 
> 
> > Hold on, texas believes chili doesn't have beans in it? How else can you have chili........?
> ...



I won't eat it with beans either, however its so off topic..


I could care less if the tortoise or turtle is WC/CB, if I come across someone selling one, I won't hesitate to buy it, because I know I can provide it a good life, in a safe environment...


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## james1974 (Jan 16, 2013)

Depending if you like a lot of vet bills?I have had both and wild ones are alot of vet bills especially in the Greek family..C.B. are the best way to go even if your going yo start a breeding group,it just takes some time to get there but worth it in the long run,plus you can see them grow up much more satisfying in my eyes.....


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## TortoiseBoy1999 (Jan 17, 2013)

Tom said:


> Note from mod Yvonne: One of our members wondered what tortoise to buy and the thread turned into a debate on wild caught or captive bred, so I've split off the debate into this thread.
> 
> I never understand this when the very same people who say this have tortoises that are direct defendants of wild caught ones, or wild caught themselves, thereby financially rewarding the people who are responsible for removing the from the wild in the first place.
> 
> ...



Tom. PM me


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