# RI and Baytril



## zalameria (Oct 20, 2012)

Hi everyone! So i posted a little about this in my intro and said i would get back to you guys once i had more info. so here i am!

I had adopted a 30yro Desert Tort, Ralf, in May this year. He was healthy for 2 months and then started staying in his burrow. When he would look at me he blew bubbles. I called the tort guy and he said it would go away and that it was hot (July) and they get lethargic. so in Aug he came out and tanked and then went back in. Not eating anything. Still blowing bubbles out the nose. So September comes and i am still worried, told the tort guy i think he is sick. He said if they are sick they come out and lay around. He said all the torts had been a little lethargic this summer and dont come out cause it got so hot. (110's)

He brought me another at the beginning of October that was "younger and more active". He is Mr Dent, aged 15. (All my torts came with just a name and no info. No hints on food they like or any history, just an estimated age.) Mr. Dent tried to share the burrow with Ralf and guess what? within a week, Mr Dent is blowing bubbles. Ralf finally came out and guess what, is laying around with white stuff dripping out of his nose. Still not eating. Mr. Dent is still active, but has the beginning of RI i guess. 

new info:
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Yesterday i took my two desert torts to the local vet (we dont seem to have a reptile vet? small town) the local tort guy said he was ok and to get some antibiotics. 

Vet got out a book (ug!) and gave both my torts a Vitamin A&D injection and Baytril injection. Then showed me how to give two more injections, 62mg (for 10lb Ralf) and 24mg (for 5lb Mr Dent) once every 3days. After the "pain dance" that i read about later and reading all the info, i am not sure this is the right plan. Ralf probably needed it, but Mr. Dent didnt need a crazy antibiotic. I hear Fortaz is easier on the systems? and better for a beginning infection? Mr Dent was paralyzed for 2 hours, but is ok, but Ralf closed his eyes and i thought he died! Right after the shot he was dragging himself around the vet's with his mouth open and gurgling. then after the car ride home he was all tucked up and not opening his eyes or responding to any touching. I thought he was dead! After 2 hours he got up and walked around, I am terrified of giving the next shot on Monday.

Nothing online says about a super dose of Baytril and every 3 days? Does this sound right to anyone? It seems a lot of the posts about Baytril go either way on this site! I have another appt next friday with a (better?) vet 1.5hrs away but not sure what to do until then. keep up the shots?

Its getting colder and I dont have a good place inside to keep my giant torts warm without it just being a box. The local tort guy said he is fine to hibernate after the antibiotics. but what i read elsewhere says no?? 

Man this is long, but i really could use help and wanted to get as much info out there!


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## tortadise (Oct 20, 2012)

IN a situation like this. I would think baytril and or other useful antibiotics would be the needed option for this issue to subside. RI can typically be rid of with adjusting temperatures to "kick the cold" per say. But given that he had these issues during warm months, means its probably gotten a little more advanced and could pose more issues to your tort. I would day in this scenario antibiotics would be a very suitable treatment and needed. I would also not hibernate your guy this year either if hes showing these ailments, could be detrimental to him of hibernated. Hope the new vet knows what to do for the guy.


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## kimber_lee_314 (Oct 20, 2012)

I use Baytril on my turtles and tortoises with RI. I generally use 5 mg/km every 48 hours. I personally wouldn't think 3 doses would be enough to cure it. The fact that the discharge is cloudy is concerning. Have they been eating and basking? I am really concerned about the vitamin A shot. This makes me think you might want to try another vet. I have seen the "dance" at times - but honestly - not very often. When I do see that I usually dilute the Baytril with Normasol or saline to make it less painful. I have never seen any paralysis from it though. I also prefer to give my injections sub-q so maybe that's why. I would not hibernate either one of them this year. I hope this was somewhat helpful for you. Good luck!


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## mainey34 (Oct 21, 2012)

I'm also am very concerned about the vitamin A & D injections the vet gave. Your tort is outdoors, correct? Nevertheless, what's done is done. Just make sure the next vet you go to knows everything that has been done. My opinion, I would not let your torts hibernate this year, due to the fact that that have not been well. Good luck to you, I hope they feel better. And keep us posted..


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## zalameria (Oct 21, 2012)

kimber_lee_314 said:


> I use Baytril on my turtles and tortoises with RI. I generally use 5 mg/km every 48 hours. I personally wouldn't think 3 doses would be enough to cure it. The fact that the discharge is cloudy is concerning. Have they been eating and basking? I am really concerned about the vitamin A shot. This makes me think you might want to try another vet. I have seen the "dance" at times - but honestly - not very often. When I do see that I usually dilute the Baytril with Normasol or saline to make it less painful. I have never seen any paralysis from it though. I also prefer to give my injections sub-q so maybe that's why. I would not hibernate either one of them this year. I hope this was somewhat helpful for you. Good luck!



Mr. Dent is still acting normal, eating and coming out. Ralf has started to come out this past week. I drug him out yesterday to get in the sun and today he came out by himself. He is still limping a little from the shot. His injection says 62mg and its in 0.6ccs. So i guess that isnt diluted at all according to the google conversions! Its to be given in the muscles in the forearms. Can i just buy some saline and mix it myself??

Ralf's nose is better today and since he was out basking... i guess it is helping? but the limping is bothering me and he is still not eating. He used to graze on my grass. My husband pointed out that there hasnt been any poo in a while either. 

The reason why i went local is the vet an hour away is where we are camping next weekend. i am worried about traumatizing him camping (in a camper) for the weekend and the long ride. Its going to be 60's and low of 40 so I will have to keep him in a box inside the whole weekend. There is nothing but trees there and i dont think there will be a nice warm place in the sun to let him out.


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## zalameria (Oct 21, 2012)

mainey34 said:


> I'm also am very concerned about the vitamin A & D injections the vet gave. Your tort is outdoors, correct? Nevertheless, what's done is done. Just make sure the next vet you go to knows everything that has been done. My opinion, I would not let your torts hibernate this year, due to the fact that that have not been well. Good luck to you, I hope they feel better. And keep us posted..



Will do! This vet is so much better... at least for my dogs and cats. She still itsnt a reptile specialist, but she is higher recommended than the local guy. She wont do anything she is not sure of and will refer me to someone else if needed.

How does everyone else keep them from not hibernating? I read elsewhere that people build boxes outside with insulation and they prop open the tops for natural light when its a warm day, but mostly put artificial lighting in them to keep normal daylight hours. But other sites say to put them in the garage? but i would still need a heat lamp? and/or heat pad? Keep it 80 degrees? I am just concerned about size. Ralf currently has 600sf to himself. I just feel putting him in a box all winter and keeping him awake would traumatize him too.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 21, 2012)

Hi Jessie:

Well, what's done is done...there's nothing you can do about it now, but for future reference, giving a tortoise a Vitamin a,d,e shot is old school medicine and we don't recommend it anymore. Too much vitamin a causes the skin to slough off, and quite a few vets DO give too much. They give it because they think it encourages appetite. 

So, since you said you don't have room inside to set up a big habitat for two large tortoises, I'll give you an idea you may be able to use in either the car port or the garage:

Put down a piece of 1/2" or 3/4" plywood in a corner, so that you have two existing walls to build against. Then build up the two outside walls with cinder blocks, placing the blocks on the edges of the plywood. For two semi-adult desert tortoises you will need to use three block high. If you are making this habitat in the car port or cold garage, then you'll probably need to add some sheets of cut-to-fit styrofoam insulation on the insides, then cut-to-fit plywood over that to protect it from the tortoises. Add a thick layer of substrate, lights, some hiding places, a feeding station and a waterer. You can place another sheet of plywood over the top for a lid. I use a closet rod to hang the lights.












It sometimes gets down in the 20'sF here at night and the tortoises stay nice and warm in these temporary habitats.


I have two full grown female desert tortoises that I can't allow to hibernate because they have abscess on their noses. They have lived in one of the above mentioned habitats over the winter just fine. And their normal outside area is appx. 40'x50' This has not traumatized them in the least. As long as their needs are seen to, they are fine.


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## kimber_lee_314 (Oct 21, 2012)

Wow! That's really nice Yvonne. To over winter mine, I just put a pig blanket in a doghouse in the garage. Then I leave the garage door to the backyard open. They just go in and out as they please, and usually return to the warm pig blanket when they get too cold. They still graze and cruise the yard on nice days.


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## Maggie Cummings (Oct 21, 2012)

Don't hibernate them this winter. I'd wait for next year when they are both healthy. I have heard about that 'dance' also but in the years with me injecting Baytril not one tort has done that dance. They all act just fine afterwards. Also, I am not a Vet, but I do medicate my animals when it's needed and I think his dosage is too much, my Vet has me give .02mL every 48 hours for 4 weeks.
Baytril doesn't hurt if it's diluted enough. I also suggest you keep both of them warmer then usual as the higher heat helps them recover. Keep us posted...


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## ALDABRAMAN (Oct 21, 2012)

maggie3fan said:


> *Baytril doesn't hurt if it's diluted enough.*



** That is true, also if you can inject 1/2 & 1/2 in two separate spots in the same front leg instead of all in one spot.

* Baytril is very caustic and tends to suppress the appetite!*


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## johnreuk (Oct 22, 2012)

Sorry to read about your tortoises not being 100% at the moment.
I have never experienced enrofloxacin dosed q72hrs, the usual dose is 5-10mg/kg q48hrs.
Did the vet recommend any topical/nebulisation therapy? Obviously every case is different but this can be very effective, and in some cases even more effective than systemic antibiotics. I'm not sure where you are, and forgive my ignorance, but can you get F10 there? 
And re: the vitamin injection.... Yes it is very outdated (not to mention good medicine!) to give every tortoise an injection of vitamin A. And yes you can overdose. However, the vet was likely using it based on the fact that hypovitaminosis A may be an underlying cause of respiratory tract infections in many species.
And like many people have said, need to increase the ambient temperature, not only to bolster immunity, but also to be at the correct temperature to metabolise the drug.

Hope that's helpful and he recovers soon! 

Kind regards,
John


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