# What substrate to use?



## davidmichaeltaylor (Jan 9, 2010)

Heya people 

Just a quick question on what types of subtrates to use. I have a Russian tortoise that loves to bury himself. It's amazing some days I will even out his subtrate and he will go into one corner scoope all of the sand into there so he has built like a trench and then hide himself inside it. Also in the garden soil you always find him with his hind legs sticking out the grass lol. So currently I have calci sand wich Is not good because it's in his water and gets on the juices of his food wich then he eats. 

I have heard that pine chip are bad because of the toxic fumes they release. I have heard compost is good but I would not like it trapcing in the house.

My other alternative is hemp but that I have been told can be really shard and can get Injured on little spikes. 

Cypress seems to look good to me and is easier to clean. But is it nice for him to bury himself inside? Also acording to the tortoise trust mites are attracted to it
so what substrate do you use and recomend?


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## GBtortoises (Jan 9, 2010)

You don't mention if your Russian tortoise is an adult or a smaller, younger tortoise. I believe the substrate used for each should be different. The Environment that Russian tortoises are from in the wild is typically very dry at the surface and they burrow to escape that extreme dryness along with extreme heat and cold. Underground the moisture level is higher which also causes the ambient humidity in their burrow to be higher. This helps them from dehydrating. Young Russian tortoises usually spend much more time buried as an instinct to escape predation and to stay better hydrated. They require a more moist substrate in captivity. Adults kept indoors won't usually have a need to bury themselves. If they do it may be a sign that it's too hot, too cold or too dry on the surface. But they also usually don't like the soil as moist as the younger ones do. That is not to say that they don't need some moisture, they do. 

Sand alone is not a good choice for a substrate. Despite spraying with water it quickly drys, gets dusty and sticks to everything moist (eyes, mouth, food). It also is very loose and does not provide adequate resistance for good footing. 

Some people mix play sand with other materials such as organic potting soil, cypress mulch and others. I personally would not recommend using sand as part of a substrate for Mediterranean or Russian tortoises. The moisture content that they require in their soil allows the sand to stick to their bodies. I still use sand mixed with other substrate materials for tropical and arid climate species. The moisture levels required for those types of tortoises seem to be at the extremes enough that the sand does not stick to the tortoise as easily. But that's my experience. Other peoples differ.

Many people are using cypress mulch with good sucess too. I have never tried it because I have equal sucess with other substrates. But from everything I've read it is working well for most people.

Pine shaving, bark or mulch is not a good substrate. Equally as bad is cedar and many hardwood products. Many woods, pine and cedar being the most conspicuous, contain an oil which releases a chemical called phenol. In small amounts it is harmless. In large amounts it can be toxic.

Compost by definition is basically rotting vegetation. It could contain any level of food scraps, grass clippings, leafs and whatever else might decay and degrade to be used as fertilizer.

I'm not familiar with the properties of hemp. It's not something that is common here in the U.S.

I actually use feed hay (sometimes called timothy hay) for a substrate for my adult Russian tortoises. I spray it with water lightly twice daily and completely replace it about every two weeks. In my situation it doesn't stay damp enough to have any mold problems. It's really easy to spot clean, they burrow through it all the time, occasionally graze on it and it's very inexpensive.

My young tortoises, up to about 2 years old, are kept on a substrate consisting of organic potting soil, coconut coir, sphagnum moss and leaf litter mix. It also gets sprayed twice daily and holds the moisture very well.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 9, 2010)

I use cypress mulch for mine...


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## sammi (Jan 9, 2010)

Ernie started out on Cypress mulch. I didn't exactly like the mulch, and I switched to a coco coir/sand mix, and Ernie [and I did too] loved it! Within minutes of putting him in the new substrate, he burrowed right down into it. I did however use Cypress mulch for a couple months, and never got any mites. I never got any bugs in it period, and since I have switched to coir/sand mix, still never got any bugs. So either way, its your own personal preference. Personally though, I love my coco coir and sand mix =]


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## Isa (Jan 10, 2010)

I use Aspen and Hermy and I like it


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## stells (Jan 10, 2010)

I use plain sterilised topsoil... i used to use a topsoil/playsand mix... but had problems with the sand causing eye irritation... mine all love the topsoil and all burrow into it....


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## kimber_lee_314 (Jan 10, 2010)

I use 50% sand and 50% coconut coir. The top layer is drier and the bottom stays moist so they can choose what they want. Has worked for me so far!


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## -ryan- (Jan 10, 2010)

For hatchlings I use coconut coir bedding and for adults I use dirt, though I have found that the dirt is more useful in enclosures where the animals will be nesting than shallower enclosures. I have my trio on about 8-9" of topsoil which the burrow in and build nests in to lay their eggs, and that works great. Actually, it's the same soil that has been in there for the past three years, but somehow with such high quantity it seems to stay clean. I have another russian that is in an enclosure with only 2-3" of topsoil and I find that to be less than ideal. The soil dries out relatively quickly and the tortoise loves to dig in it, but mostly ends up just pushing mounds of dirt around the enclosure. I guess it's better than other substrates that I have used though. I use cypress with my redfoot and that does attract mites, as well as gnats, but neither will harm the animals. They are not snake mites and don't wish to feed on the tortoises.


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## ChiKat (Jan 10, 2010)

-ryan- said:


> For hatchlings I use coconut coir bedding and for adults I use dirt, though I have found that the dirt is more useful in enclosures where the animals will be nesting than shallower enclosures.



Do you use plain coconut coir for your bedding? I use a 50/50 mix with sand in Nelson's current enclosure, but I'm moving him into a 4x2 foot enclosure this week. I ordered several bricks of coconut coir and I was thinking of doing an 80/20 mix with sand this time.
I have asked this question a dozen times in a dozen different threads...but I'm just trying to get everyone's opinion


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## darthsmozers (Jan 16, 2010)

We use Repti-Bark (Pet store sold it to us), which seems to be fir bark, with layers of newspaper underneath (we get a lot of junk mail). Journey loves to burrow and make little "homes" for himself. The newspaper makes for easy cleanup every month or so (we spot clean all the time). 

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2752663

I did not like the fact that the bark can be very dusty, espcially towards the bottom of the bag. I've seen Aspen mentioned a few times. What is it, exactly? And how much moisture does a younger RT need? We soak him once a week, but should we be doing more? I see some mention of spraying the substrate... 

We're about out of our supply of the bark, so if Aspen is a good substitute, we'd love to know more about it.

Thanks!


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## tortoisenerd (Jan 16, 2010)

My tort and I both love the shredded aspen (the snake bedding type which has smaller particles than the type you get in the rodent section; beware of softwood mixes and only get pure aspen). The larger the bag the better the deal. I get 45 lb bags for the same price as a 2 lb bag at a pet shop. This is great if you do not need moisture (which I think is ok for a Russian as they don't tend to get pyramided unless the diet is really bad). You cannot moisten aspen. Some people of course will say to keep a growing Russian on a moist substrate, but we live in a damp climate and just couldn't get it to work. My little guy isn't pyramided and I only know personally of one pyramided Russian and I don't think it was humidity (I think diet). I say try it out and see what you think.

The aspen can be dusty, but I don't find a problem with it except when I am replacing it (the tortoise is taken out of the area). Once in awhile he will get some in his eyes so I put him in his water and he wipes it out. I make it about twice as deep as he is long and he loves to burrow in it. It is much easier for them to dig in than a bark type of substrate because it has small particles, and can be cheaper. I find I can go 3-6 months without a full replacement. I just scoop off some of the top layer when I feel like it besides the spot cleans (I could actually probably go years with it but I am a neat freak). I keep a timothy hay pile on top of it in his warmest area as he prefers that and fake plants over the box type hides. He spends most of his waking hours under the hay hiding where it is in the 80s. If you keep the food away from the substrate that will eliminate most risk of impaction as most torts won't just want to eat their substrate (it gets on the food and they unknowingly eat it). I have also heard that aspen like other recommended substrates on this forum will pass right through.

For a tortoise which needs a moist substrate, Cyprus Mulch, Orchid Bark, and Coconut Coir come to mind as popular types on this forum. They are all great substrates and it is really a personal preference as to what to use (along with availability and cost). I think with mixing sand with Coconut Coir you should use as little sand as possible, or none at all. I have heard that it doesn't need it as much as many people think it does (to help with traction, having it be less wet, and holding its shape). Something to experiment with to see what you and your tort like.

On the soaking issue. Everyone will also give you a different response on this one. If you see your tortoise coming and going into the water on its own, you may not even want to soak. If you have any doubt, than I suggest doing it. I have a compromise in that if I think my little guy hasn't had water for awhile, I will take his enclosure dish and put nice baby bath warm water in there, and then place him it it. When he wants out he gets out. Most of the time he'll sit in there for a few minutes to soak and drink. This is a nice way to encourage him to drink but not force soak. Soaking does not help with pyramiding or humidity in my opinion, but can help with hydration (although this is also disputed). At a minimum, it would encourage a tortoise to drink, which is more important in captivity due to the hot lights than in the wild. Moistening greens can also help water intake, as can an occasional treat of a green with a higher water content (the stalky part of romaine is enjoyed for example and is high in water, but low in nutrients).

Best wishes.


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## darthsmozers (Jan 17, 2010)

tortoisenerd said:


> My tort and I both love the shredded aspen (the snake bedding type which has smaller particles than the type you get in the rodent section; beware of softwood mixes and only get pure aspen). The larger the bag the better the deal. I get 45 lb bags for the same price as a 2 lb bag at a pet shop. This is great if you do not need moisture (which I think is ok for a Russian as they don't tend to get pyramided unless the diet is really bad). You cannot moisten aspen. Some people of course will say to keep a growing Russian on a moist substrate, but we live in a damp climate and just couldn't get it to work. My little guy isn't pyramided and I only know personally of one pyramided Russian and I don't think it was humidity (I think diet). I say try it out and see what you think.
> 
> The aspen can be dusty, but I don't find a problem with it except when I am replacing it (the tortoise is taken out of the area). Once in awhile he will get some in his eyes so I put him in his water and he wipes it out. I make it about twice as deep as he is long and he loves to burrow in it. It is much easier for them to dig in than a bark type of substrate because it has small particles, and can be cheaper. I find I can go 3-6 months without a full replacement. I just scoop off some of the top layer when I feel like it besides the spot cleans (I could actually probably go years with it but I am a neat freak). I keep a timothy hay pile on top of it in his warmest area as he prefers that and fake plants over the box type hides. He spends most of his waking hours under the hay hiding where it is in the 80s. If you keep the food away from the substrate that will eliminate most risk of impaction as most torts won't just want to eat their substrate (it gets on the food and they unknowingly eat it). I have also heard that aspen like other recommended substrates on this forum will pass right through.
> 
> ...



As always, tons of great information from you. Thank you!

Here is what we found at Target (although the link below is for PetSmart):

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2755138

We found them at Target for only $3.49/brick, and bought three of them. We'll probably mix it in with whats left of his new bag of ReptiBark so that we can use that up (and also transition him, as that's what he's had for the three months since we got him). It looks like its the larger pieces, similar to the bark size, as opposed to the smaller snake style you mentioned, but that's all they had and we needed to buy more bedding in a rush. We'll give it a try and see how he does. 

As far as moisture, we soak him once a week, where he is guaranteed to go to the bathroom multiple times in one soaking. For better or worse, I suppose... I read they like to use the bathroom while soaking, so hopefully this is normal. That aside, we do soak him every weekend, and perhaps should up it to twice a week as it seems most here are very good about keeping their torts moist with the spray on the substrate. He does urinate a lot, so we suppose he gets enough water to drink anyway. Probably from the mix of red leaf lettuce and collard greens we feed him (although we probably should mix it up even more).

Thank you for your suggestion of Aspen. We'll see how it goes!


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## darthsmozers (Jan 17, 2010)

Well, we've mixed the Aspen in with what was left of the ReptiBark. He seems to be moving about, lots of sniffing and exploring. But, is EATING part of exploring? He's tried to eat some and it makes us nervous.


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## darthsmozers (Jan 29, 2010)

To Admin, can you please move this back to the Regarding Russians section where it was getting more traffic, and is specifically about Russians?


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## -ryan- (Jan 29, 2010)

ChiKat said:


> -ryan- said:
> 
> 
> > For hatchlings I use coconut coir bedding and for adults I use dirt, though I have found that the dirt is more useful in enclosures where the animals will be nesting than shallower enclosures.
> ...



I just use it straight. I usually use that for about the first 6 months to a year (which is how long it takes for them to get about 3" or so) and then I switch to dirt. Actually, I have used dirt for hatchlings too, but the coconut coir just is a little easier for me. It's a lot harder to dig up hatchlings in dirt. I made that mistake with the first one that I hatched (who is now shaping up to be a very large russian). I put about 4" of soil in the rearing tank when she hatched, and low and behold she dug to the bottom all the time, which made it hard to keep tabs on her. My large russians will dig down into their dirt, but usually you can still see the very tops of their shells.

I've never felt like the coconut coir mixed with sand very nicely. It's all about preference though. I keep the dirt in my enclosures moist, and the coconut coir very moist. That is why I get perfectly smooth tortoises and I don't need to soak them (though right now I do, because it makes it easier to clean enclosures). Of course, the main reason I use dirt is because my tortoises won't lay eggs unless they have large amounts of dirt (right now the adults have about 500 pounds of dirt in their enclosure).

Just keep experimenting until you find what works for you. Good luck!


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## ChiKat (Jan 30, 2010)

I moved Nelson into a new enclosure a few weeks ago and now I use mostly coconut coir with a very small amount of sand mixed it- it's basically plain coconut coir  
I really like it, and more importantly Nelson does too. He hasn't had eye irritation since I took out (the majority of) the sand.
Nelson is still under 3 inches so maybe I will switch him to organic topsoil in the future, but for now I'm happy with the coir!

He's not big on burrowing though, which I find kind of odd for a Russian. He will bury himself under his pile of hay, and dig into the substrate a little, but never buries himself completely, like he did a few times when I first got him.


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## -ryan- (Jan 30, 2010)

ChiKat said:


> I moved Nelson into a new enclosure a few weeks ago and now I use mostly coconut coir with a very small amount of sand mixed it- it's basically plain coconut coir
> I really like it, and more importantly Nelson does too. He hasn't had eye irritation since I took out (the majority of) the sand.
> Nelson is still under 3 inches so maybe I will switch him to organic topsoil in the future, but for now I'm happy with the coir!
> 
> He's not big on burrowing though, which I find kind of odd for a Russian. He will bury himself under his pile of hay, and dig into the substrate a little, but never buries himself completely, like he did a few times when I first got him.



I have noticed that as they grow they tend not to bury themselves completely anymore. My hatchlings all 'disappear' for about 20 hours a day. They spend about 4 hours running around and eating, which I attribute to my 'hands off' approach (I don't touch them except for their weekly soak). I have raised them before with a more 'hands on' approach and they didn't eat as much, didn't grow as well, and I saw them a lot less. That's not really related to the topic, but it's just something interesting I have noted.

I have one holdback from a clutch that hatched in November, and he is just burying himself so that the top of his shell protrudes (as do my adults... when they take the time to bother doing even that). The most recently hatchlings are just reaching the point where they aren't 'completely disappearing' for most of the day. I can still find their shells in the coconut coir.

To be honest, the main reason I have been using coconut coir with my more recent hatchlings is because the eggs hatched in winter and I couldn't find organic topsoil anywhere. But, the coconut coir seems to work well with them, so why fix what's not broken? The reason I use dirt with the larger ones is because it provides a more stable, firm footing for them, and it wears their claws down better.


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