# Hatching a tort without the egg shell-Science nerds check it out.



## allegraf (Jun 6, 2016)

I just saw this, an experiment in Japan on hatching a chicken without the egg! Very interesting experiment. I'm not sure if I would do this with a tort egg though. May have to practice with a chicken egg first.


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Jun 6, 2016)

That is very interesting.. Hmm. 
I wonder what the downside of hatching without the egg is. I know it was mentioned before that baby tortoises that pip through the egg show strength and those that need a little help are weaker and may not survive long in the wild. Is it safe to assume the same about chicks? 
Or how important is hatching with an egg shell?


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## Markw84 (Jun 6, 2016)

Not only the struggle to strengthen Linhdan mentions, but I also was always under the impression that the tortoise absorbs some calcium from the shell as it develops???? It does however, underscore the importance of air exchange, temperature, and humidity.


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Jun 6, 2016)

If a tortoise were to hatch without the egg shell, would its shape change? I feel like tortoises fit and fill their shells just perfectly


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## allegraf (Jun 6, 2016)

I am tempted to try this. I would have to get some eggs from the neighbor and practice with the chicken eggs first.


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Jun 6, 2016)

CAN I HAVE THE BABY CHICKS AFTER ?!


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## Anyfoot (Jun 14, 2016)

If this worked with a Tortoise, how would you know when it's ready to (normally) pip? 
I'm thinking chickens have a pretty accurate incubating period, so hatch time can be predicted.


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## jskahn (Jun 22, 2016)

Did I miss it? Don't chicken eggs have to be periodically turned?


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## naturalman91 (Jun 22, 2016)

I've seen this before and every time it amazes me


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## BrianWI (Jun 29, 2016)

jskahn said:


> Did I miss it? Don't chicken eggs have to be periodically turned?


Early on yes, to keep the embryo from sticking to the shell. As they age, they really don't need to be turned.

I saw this before, I do wonder what the hatch rate is.

There are chicks that don't hatch from their eggs but it ranges in the reasons why, from crossbeaks to lethal genes (such as creeper Cp). Thats why you generally don't help as it can be heart-breaking.


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## jskahn (Jul 1, 2016)

That is what I thought, but in the video, they were not turned. Maybe because they are turned so that they don't stick to the shell, and the embryo don't stick to the plastic.


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## Anyfoot (Jul 1, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> Early on yes, to keep the embryo from sticking to the shell. As they age, they really don't need to be turned.
> 
> I saw this before, I do wonder what the hatch rate is.
> 
> There are chicks that don't hatch from their eggs but it ranges in the reasons why, from crossbeaks to lethal genes (such as creeper Cp). Thats why you generally don't help as it can be heart-breaking.


Why does a chick embryo stick but not a Tortoise embryo?


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## BrianWI (Jul 1, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> Why does a chick embryo stick but not a Tortoise embryo?



Good question, I don't know.


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## jskahn (Jul 2, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> Good question, I don't know.


Tortoises and turtles do attach to their shells, That is why you can't turn eggs from the position that they are laid in. The first day or so is okay. Once they have attached, turning them can kill the embryo.


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## BrianWI (Jul 2, 2016)

There ya go. For one it kills, the other it kills if ya don't. Nature is never boring.


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## Anyfoot (Jul 3, 2016)

Do tortoises rely on the egg shell to help the carapace form, if they attach to the egg shell, does this serve as a temperory bridge to allow the carapace shape to form. Is this why some hatchlings come out looking a bit lop sided and some look perfectly round, because one egg could be laid correct and flat and another egg could be on its edge so to speak. 
If eggs were purposely laid on there edge instantly after being laid would it encourage higher domed torts. 
Or is the above nonsense and they just grow until they fill the egg? 
Interesting.


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## Anyfoot (Sep 15, 2016)

@allegraf 
I broke an egg whilst retrieving them yesterday. I've only covered the hole so air and humidity exchange should be as normal.
I can try for nothing.


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## Wolfie (Sep 15, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> @allegraf
> I broke an egg whilst retrieving them yesterday. I've only covered the hole so air and humidity exchange should be as normal.
> I can try for nothing.
> View attachment 186958


Please update as you go!


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## Anyfoot (Sep 15, 2016)

Wolfie said:


> Please update as you go!


May not even ever have been fertile, we shall see. I shall take photos as we go. Adds a spark to the already interesting incubation procedure.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 15, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> May not even ever have been fertile, we shall see. I shall take photos as we go. Adds a spark to the already interesting incubation procedure.



You have overwhelming curiosity about chelonian eggs. I wish you had been head of my graduate committee while I was in school. I might still have not graduated though. LOL. I look forward to the updates as they come in.


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## MPRC (Sep 15, 2016)

I'm just here to watch and see what happens.


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## Anyfoot (Sep 15, 2016)

Will said:


> You have overwhelming curiosity about chelonian eggs. I wish you had been head of my graduate committee while I was in school. I might still have not graduated though. LOL. I look forward to the updates as they come in.


Thanks, I'm curious about all aspects of torts, it fascinates me, may aswell start from the ground up.
It would be nice if someone with a proven female and a shorter incubation species could do this(Russian maybe).
Can you see any reason why theoretically this would not work? I was wondering if the few minutes exposure to the atmosphere before I covered it would have already damaged something, then again does the albumen keep the yolk sealed from contamination.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 15, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> Thanks, I'm curious about all aspects of torts, it fascinates me, may aswell start from the ground up.
> It would be nice if someone with a proven female and a shorter incubation species could do this(Russian maybe).
> Can you see any reason why theoretically this would not work? I was wondering if the few minutes exposure to the atmosphere before I covered it would have already damaged something, then again does the albumen keep the yolk sealed from contamination.




Yes the albumin is the sealant and water,waste component of an egg. No knowing on exposure contamination, but I would guess not a problem.

I will go you one better than theoretical will it work or not as you have done it, It can/will work, it's been done many times. Some even published in the sci. lit. as a way to monitor the development of chelonians' eggs. I think that is some Micheal Ewert work. He published so much it's difficult for me to re-find it right now. It could have been an earlier author, Yhetem or something like that.


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## Anyfoot (Sep 15, 2016)

Will said:


> Yes the albumin is the sealant and water,waste component of an egg. No knowing on exposure contamination, but I would guess not a problem.
> 
> I will go you one better than theoretical will it work or not as you have done it, It can/will work, it's been done many times. Some even published in the sci. lit. as a way to monitor the development of chelonians' eggs. I think that is some Micheal Ewert work. He published so much it's difficult for me to re-find it right now. It could have been an earlier author, Yhetem or something like that.


Well that gives me some hope. I've just had to modify it a bit. Not sure I've done the right thing, but the cling film was sucking onto the albumen, so I've made a cage and laid the cling film over that and sealed to the egg. Trust me I was super careful to keep the egg level. Now I'm thinking have I trapped air in there. 
The cage is food grade stainless. 
My missis is going to go mad the next time she goes for the vegetable blanching basket to find the veg falling straight through, it has a rather large square hole cut out of it. Lol


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## allegraf (Sep 15, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> @allegraf
> I broke an egg whilst retrieving them yesterday. I've only covered the hole so air and humidity exchange should be as normal.
> I can try for nothing.
> View attachment 186958


That is so cool! Definitely keep a photo log and update us!


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## Wolfie (Sep 15, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> Well that gives me some hope. I've just had to modify it a bit. Not sure I've done the right thing, but the cling film was sucking onto the albumen, so I've made a cage and laid the cling film over that and sealed to the egg. Trust me I was super careful to keep the egg level. Now I'm thinking have I trapped air in there.
> The cage is food grade stainless.
> My missis is going to go mad the next time she goes for the vegetable blanching basket to find the veg falling straight through, it has a rather large square hole cut out of it. Lol
> View attachment 186983


Whoa! This is really quite interesting!


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## allegraf (Sep 15, 2016)

Btw: you have made that egg look quite villainous!


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## Anyfoot (Sep 16, 2016)

Thinking again. 
When we take about sex temperature incubation I'm at the understanding it's not 100% full proof, although the general information is higher temps produce females. In nature surely it's pot luck as temps fluctuate at the exact moment that genitalia are developing. 
Taking an experiment similar to this to a professional level would we see the development of genitalia whilst monitoring temps. 
For example, 2 eggs in seperate incubators at 80 & 90f, with equipment to film and record temps extremely accurately. 
Would we see the differences in development between male and female with the temp recording at that time? 

This could go on forever, sorry. 

The above then got me thinking about splitties, If temps are required at 90F for a female but also this produces splits. Would it not be the case for example only the first 4 wks requires 90f for the internal genitalia development then temps drop to stop splitties as the rest developes. In nature fluctuation in temps would offer either sex and vastly reduce splitties.
Is it the constant barrage of high temps we keepers do that produce splitties thinking keeping a constant high temp throughout incubation is the requirement when in fact it could just be a 4 wk window period.


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## Fredkas (Sep 16, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> @allegraf
> I broke an egg whilst retrieving them yesterday. I've only covered the hole so air and humidity exchange should be as normal.
> I can try for nothing.
> View attachment 186958


Update it here.. with pic.. do not let me searching for this very unique experiment


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## Anyfoot (Sep 20, 2016)

Shortest experiment in the world. Took 5 days for yolk to merge in with albumen and it started to smell rotten. Im guessing being open to the atmosphere too long caused it.
Oh well. There will be more chances I suppose.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Sep 20, 2016)

Bummer.


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## Wolfie (Sep 21, 2016)

Well darn. Oh well


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## allegraf (Sep 21, 2016)

That sucks!


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## mctlong (Sep 21, 2016)

Ah well, it was cool idea.


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