# Cedar



## Newbie3 (Jul 5, 2010)

Hello,

I am in the process of building and indoor and outdoor pens. I have been reading online to use cedar for the outside pen and not treated lumber. Then I am hearing not to use cedar at all. I already bought cedar (it is not that red aromatic stuff) and started construction of the outdoor pen. Please advise as I don't want to harm my turtles.

Newbie3


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## Tom (Jul 5, 2010)

Cedar gives off fumes that repel bugs. That's why they use it for closet liners and chests. Those same fumes are toxic in a closed space 24/7. Whether it would hurt your chelonians in an open air outdoor pen is questionable. Personally, I would not take the risk. There are other building materials that won't harm them for sure.

Welcome to the forum. What species are you building pens for?


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## Newbie3 (Jul 5, 2010)

Tom said:


> Cedar gives off fumes that repel bugs. That's why they use it for closet liners and chests. Those same fumes are toxic in a closed space 24/7. Whether it would hurt your chelonians in an open air outdoor pen is questionable. Personally, I would not take the risk. There are other building materials that won't harm them for sure.
> 
> Welcome to the forum. What species are you building pens for?




Hi Tom,

Thanks for your input. The cedar I bought is not the same as the closet liner (red). Does that matter? It was pricey and I am almost complete with the construction of the outdoor pen. Could I line the inside of the pen with something to cover the cedar that would be relatively inexpensive? I will use something else for the indoor pen.

My mother had seven turtles in New Mexico and several years ago gave four to another "turtle" person. She kept a Carolina turtle she had for about 30 years, a baby that she discovered among her turtles and a baby her best friend gave her from her turtle group. The babies are maybe 2-3 years old. I think she had some desert turtles, not sure what the babies are. My mother passed away in April and I told her I would care for her turtles. My step brother is transporting them to me here in Pennsylvania and thought I would examine them more closely when they get here to determine exactly what they are.

Any suggestions would certainly help me as I am a new turtle owner.


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## Madkins007 (Jul 5, 2010)

Hopefully, they are Carolinian or Eastern Box Turtles, and not Desert Tortoises or related species, since there are pretty strong federal laws about such things. For that matter, I think there are laws about Box Turtles in Pennsylvania as well, but I am not sure about either of those.

Using cedar is not recommended, but there is also very little solid proof it will cause problems when used for the outer walls outside. As far as I know, we cannot point at a study or case history and say this was because of cedar walls. 

It sounds like you may be reluctant to take the advice of seasoned keepers on this, and I can understand- especially since we cannot say that it absolutely is dangerous for the tortoises and turtles. 

I would suggest that the Box Turtles are probably going to be bothered by it less than other species might be, but Desert Tortoises are so finicky to things like this that I would not use it for them. Of course, I also wouldn't try to keep a Desert Tortoise in Pennsylvania- it is the wrong habitat for them and they have a nasty habit of getting respiratory diseases easily in the sort of weather that is common there.


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## GBtortoises (Jul 6, 2010)

The cedar commonly found for outdoor construction (decks, siding, etc...) is Western Cedar. Eastern Cedar is also known as white or aromatic cedar. Both contain oils which are said to insect resistant (although I've seen otherwise). These oils are present in live trees and freshly milled lumber that contain some moisture content. Once the moisture content goes below about 7% in the lumber for an extended time the oil content greatly dissipates. Older, sun exposed cedar probably contains only a very minute amount which is why insects are often seen on and in it despite being cedar. The only major difference between Western and Eastern Cedar is just the appearance of the wood itself.

One of the biggest drawbacks of using cedar in a situation where you need durability is that it is a very soft wood, especially in comparison to pressure treated southern yellow pine. As the name implies, the wood is pressure treated. This process impregnates preservatives deep into the inner pores of a piece of lumber keeping moisture out. Some of the very first versions of PT lumber gave off traces of some nasty chemicals, most notably arsenic and copper. Today's formulas are better, safer and have a much longer life.

I use only pressure treated lumber on my outdoor tortoises enclosures, most of which are over 20 years old. I've never had any problems whatsoever and I have never had to replace a piece and probably never will in my lifetime. Both cedar and PT lumber are expensive compared to regular kiln dried untreated lumber. Cedar is not so good for ground contact use unless it is routinely treated with a preservative, it will rot, and rather quickly depending upon moisture content in the ground. PT lumber will last for several decades and is maintenance free.


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## Newbie3 (Jul 6, 2010)

GBtortoises said:


> The cedar commonly found for outdoor construction (decks, siding, etc...) is Western Cedar. Eastern Cedar is also known as white or aromatic cedar. Both contain oils which are said to insect resistant (although I've seen otherwise). These oils are present in live trees and freshly milled lumber that contain some moisture content. Once the moisture content goes below about 7% in the lumber for an extended time the oil content greatly dissipates. Older, sun exposed cedar probably contains only a very minute amount which is why insects are often seen on and in it despite being cedar. The only major difference between Western and Eastern Cedar is just the appearance of the wood itself.
> 
> One of the biggest drawbacks of using cedar in a situation where you need durability is that it is a very soft wood, especially in comparison to pressure treated southern yellow pine. As the name implies, the wood is pressure treated. This process impregnates preservatives deep into the inner pores of a piece of lumber keeping moisture out. Some of the very first versions of PT lumber gave off traces of some nasty chemicals, most notably arsenic and copper. Today's formulas are better, safer and have a much longer life.
> 
> I use only pressure treated lumber on my outdoor tortoises enclosures, most of which are over 20 years old. I've never had any problems whatsoever and I have never had to replace a piece and probably never will in my lifetime. Both cedar and PT lumber are expensive compared to regular kiln dried untreated lumber. Cedar is not so good for ground contact use unless it is routinely treated with a preservative, it will rot, and rather quickly depending upon moisture content in the ground. PT lumber will last for several decades and is maintenance free.




Thank you for the education on cedar. I noticed how soft the cedar lumber is and wondered how it would weather. I guess I should disassemble the cedar and go with pressure treated. Thanks so much for this info!

Debbie



Madkins007 said:


> Hopefully, they are Carolinian or Eastern Box Turtles, and not Desert Tortoises or related species, since there are pretty strong federal laws about such things. For that matter, I think there are laws about Box Turtles in Pennsylvania as well, but I am not sure about either of those.
> 
> Using cedar is not recommended, but there is also very little solid proof it will cause problems when used for the outer walls outside. As far as I know, we cannot point at a study or case history and say this was because of cedar walls.
> 
> ...




Thanks for your input, Mark, it is appreciated!

Debbie


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