# I'm in petco and I want to scream!!



## AlishaT (Nov 30, 2013)

I'm shopping with the kids at an open air shopping mall. To get warm I stepped in here. There is a guy looking into a tank with five Russians in it. He is wanting to get one and talking to the teenager working here about how should he take care of it. They are taking about it sharing a "tank" with a red ear slider!!! I need to keep my mouth shut but I can't so I just walked over and said to him that a tortoise. Isn't something that shod be an impulse purchase. I said they can be great but more complicated than he might realize. She is now talking about how it likes to walk around where its warm and likes to play in the water but it shouldn't get in too much....I need to get out if here before I I freak out... These are living creatures here in pet stores. There needs to be some kind of regulation with the employees and who can give advice in a particular department. This little girl means well but I don't think she has even read the little leaflet sitting here!


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Nov 30, 2013)

These are the opportunities to educate people with no concern for correctness. I psyche myself before approaching by reminding myself it is for the good of the animal. And of course, you suggest that they visit and/or join TFO. Knowledge is power ... here's to more powerful tortoise keepers! : )


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## sibi (Nov 30, 2013)

It's hard not to react emotionally to this type of thing, but if we are to be taken seriously, we have to restrain from emotional remarks and just teach. Isn't it better to tell the person why something isn't right or why something should be done this way? It's obvious that employees at pet stores are not an authority when it comes to animals. I mean, many if not all of them are working at minimum wage and are just trying to get a paycheck. So, next time you see something like that, you can just politely say, "I couldn't help overhearing..." This will be the time to educate those who should know more about the animals they are selling. At the same time you can promote awareness by inviting them to join this forum.


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## AlishaT (Nov 30, 2013)

Well luckily due to my being terrified of confrontation I was very nice the way I said it so as not to offend the girl working there, really she isn't to blame here, nor the man looking at them. I went on to the other isle and listened to them talking and then I fumed. It's true that being rude isn't going to help nicely giving advice, I hope, gives them both something to think about.


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## smylemaker (Dec 1, 2013)

I was that Naive Mom who wanted to buy a tort for my kids, I am still learning and had a few ppl sort of harsh with their words, but good intentions , tell me everything I am doing wrong.. BUT I also had some really great ppl here take the time to help me, they have so much patients with someone as, (well lets just say not the brightest crayon in the box)  those petstore chains do have very few staff that DO know what they are talking about (IMHO) but they are far and few... even I who knows hardly anything re: torts now overhear some "innocents" who see or like torts , and being the crazy person I am I approach them and say hey I just got a tort and absolutely love him, but am still learning ... I thought I had somewhat of a clue, but may I suggest asking people who have them for a long time (on this site ) before you spend un-necessary money before you buy  they either have appreciated what I said or look at me like I am a weirdo.. either way... I would have liked someone to tell me that...


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## wellington (Dec 1, 2013)

That is when you don't keep your mouth shut. That is when you do scream, scream or talk nicely works better and educate them. We need to be their voice they don't have one. If we do nothing, we are no better then the idiots selling them!


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## sibi (Dec 1, 2013)

Barb, why do you get to call people "idiots," but if a member calls someone an idiot, it's deleted? There are members here who work for these pet stores who might take great offense go that. I'm not trying to start anything, but it just so confusing to understand why our mods don't follow the rules of this forum. Led by example. PM coming.


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## T33's Torts (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: RE: I'm in petco and I want to scream!!*



sibi said:


> Barb, why do you get to call people "idiots," but if a member calls someone an idiot, it's deleted? There are members here who work for these pet stores who might take great offense go that. I'm not trying to start anything, but it just so confusing to understand why our mods don't follow the rules of this forum. Led by example. PM coming.



I'm actually curious as well. I get that mods have a higher ranking, but bending the rules?


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## wellington (Dec 1, 2013)

I'm not calling a member here an idiot. I'm calling those people at this particular pet store that this op is referring too. I wouldn't assume one of our members that works at pet stores would give such bad advice. 
As for mods following the rules, we do. I have had some post deleted too.




tffnytorts said:


> sibi said:
> 
> 
> > Barb, why do you get to call people "idiots," but if a member calls someone an idiot, it's deleted? There are members here who work for these pet stores who might take great offense go that. I'm not trying to start anything, but it just so confusing to understand why our mods don't follow the rules of this forum. Led by example. PM coming.
> ...



Wrong. We don't have a higher ranking. We are deleted or corrected just like everyone else. We cross the wrong line and we can be banned too. We do have different obligations then the rest. We have to approve threads/post and try to enforce Josh's rules. We also have to put up with the back lash of enforcing Josh's rules. We also get blamed for things that aren't true, just because we are mods.
No, there is no special treatment here. Wrong treatment, yes, but not by Josh or the mods.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Dec 1, 2013)

Were I to have a job at Petco or petsmart, I would be a fantastic choice for the reptile section. But, put me in the fish department and my experience would be limited to the comet I bought and put in the 55 gallon rain barrel to eat Mosquitos. And if I were in the bird area, LOL is really all I can say. Why would I be in those areas? Maybe someone called in sick and the spot needed filling. I believe Yvonne said it best when she said the buyer should be held accountable for the responsibility of the animal they're getting. Just like life. Having a kid is a huge responsibility that goes beyond how good it feels at the time. Folks could use alittle dose of personal responsibility in many areas of life


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## AlishaT (Dec 1, 2013)

smylemaker said:


> I was that Naive Mom who wanted to buy a tort for my kids, I am still learning and had a few ppl sort of harsh with their words, but good intentions , tell me everything I am doing wrong.. BUT I also had some really great ppl here take the time to help me, they have so much patients with someone as, (well lets just say not the brightest crayon in the box)  those petstore chains do have very few staff that DO know what they are talking about (IMHO) but they are far and few... even I who knows hardly anything re: torts now overhear some "innocents" who see or like torts , and being the crazy person I am I approach them and say hey I just got a tort and absolutely love him, but am still learning ... I thought I had somewhat of a clue, but may I suggest asking people who have them for a long time (on this site ) before you spend un-necessary money before you buy  they either have appreciated what I said or look at me like I am a weirdo.. either way... I would have liked someone to tell me that...



I totally agree that I was also that mom buying a tort for my kids. I think what frustrated me the most was the fact that I had been in his shoes and I wish there had been someone to say "whoa! Slow down young lady and let's make sure you're prepared to bring this little guy home!" I don't think the fault is either the customer or the employee. I think very few of us had any idea what we had just done. It really is only because of this forum and all the expert advice that poor Walter isn't dead. Education is key here and every time an employee hears (in kindness) information they also can help to pass it along. I think we all need to just remember why each of us is here and be glad we all share the same goal of helping these creatures we love so much. Isn't that all that really matters?


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## sibi (Dec 1, 2013)

Yeah! You hit it right on the head Alisha. It's all about the animals. And the key is education! Speaking up, voicing how and why something should be done is vital if things are gonna change. So, perhaps having flyers made up before going to these pet stores, and being ready to educate, can be the best thing you can do to help these animals. You will always see a Russian or Greek tort in petsmart with a snake bowl! Giving them this forum to get educated would be a great beginning. I know that's what i plan to do


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## Saleama (Dec 2, 2013)

AlishaT said:


> smylemaker said:
> 
> 
> > I was that Naive Mom who wanted to buy a tort for my kids, I am still learning and had a few ppl sort of harsh with their words, but good intentions , tell me everything I am doing wrong.. BUT I also had some really great ppl here take the time to help me, they have so much patients with someone as, (well lets just say not the brightest crayon in the box)  those petstore chains do have very few staff that DO know what they are talking about (IMHO) but they are far and few... even I who knows hardly anything re: torts now overhear some "innocents" who see or like torts , and being the crazy person I am I approach them and say hey I just got a tort and absolutely love him, but am still learning ... I thought I had somewhat of a clue, but may I suggest asking people who have them for a long time (on this site ) before you spend un-necessary money before you buy  they either have appreciated what I said or look at me like I am a weirdo.. either way... I would have liked someone to tell me that...
> ...



Except that the sales persons job is to sell, not make sure the animal is going to a good home. Also, part of that job is to sell the items the store sells, not to make recomendations about buying plant saucers for water dishes etc.., Whether we like it or not, pet stores are still stores and they have to operate at a profit. Sometimes that means they sell animals they shouldn't and keep them in ways that don't look very good. Everyone LOVES their Russian Tortoise but we all hate where they come from and the reality is, most of them are wild caught animals sold at these stores. I have three Russians that I rescued from people who jumped into them and then realized what a huge responsibility they are. One I got and the people gave her to me in the box they had got her in from petsmart. They were good and kind enough to realize quickly that they could not give her what she needed and now she lives in a big garden instead of a small tank. My point is, the store is going to do what it does and sometimes all we can do is advise and maybe catch the rescues because we certainly can not get into all the homes and educate people about what they are doing wrong. Print up some fliers with this forum address on them and ask to hang it on the bulletin board at your local store. They will let you. And keep caring! There are far to few people who do that these days!


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## sibi (Dec 2, 2013)

Stephen, the only problem I have with your statement that stores are in this for the profit, and have no responsibilities toward the animals they are trying to sell is dead wrong. These stores aren't selling inanimate objects. It's not like a table or lamp. This is a life...a life that these stores have a responsibility to treat humanly. There are even laws that protect animals who are abused. So, to say that stores don't have a responsibility toward the animals they're selling is not true. However, employees have to follow the store's policies on setups. Even so, employees should be knowledgeable about their products. Take for instance a salesperson who is selling a tank heater to someone, and tells the person that the product was made to go in water because it's totally airtight. Ultimately, it's the customer's responsibility to read the instructions first before using it. But, since the sales person said it can be used in water, the customer put it under water and got electrocuted. How much responsibility did the employee have in misleading the customer? Many a lawsuits have awarded customers for such a thing. A customer can win a lawsuit like this because there is a level of responsibly that an employee has to knowing the product it's selling. How much more is that responsibility when it comes to life!


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## Jacqui (Dec 2, 2013)

Going to play Devil's advocate here...



AlishaT said:


> They are taking about it sharing a "tank" with a red ear slider!!!



While not ideal, not against any laws nor does it mean a death sentence. You could make a set up that could hold both animals enough to survive. (I did not say in my opinion quality would be good, nor do I think you should, but you could). Did you hear the size of the "tank"?



AlishaT said:


> She is now talking about how it likes to walk around where its warm and likes to play in the water but it shouldn't get in too much



My Russians like to walk around where it is warm (bask there too). Play in water? Hmmm it often sounds to me like people in here say their tortoises like to play in water, while they are force soaking them...

To me a lot of this could be taken in a different way and not be something horrible. Not what I would do or recommend, but nothing that I bet hasn't been done many times before.


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## Saleama (Dec 2, 2013)

sibi said:


> Stephen, the only problem I have with your statement that stores are in this for the profit, and have no responsibilities toward the animals they are trying to sell is dead wrong. These stores aren't selling inanimate objects. It's not like a table or lamp. This is a life...a life that these stores have a responsibility to treat humanly. There are even laws that protect animals who are abused. So, to say that stores don't have a responsibility toward the animals they're selling is not true. However, employees have to follow the store's policies on setups. Even so, employees should be knowledgeable about their products. Take for instance a salesperson who is selling a tank heater to someone, and tells the person that the product was made to go in water because it's totally airtight. Ultimately, it's the customer's responsibility to read the instructions first before using it. But, since the sales person said it can be used in water, the customer put it under water and got electrocuted. How much responsibility did the employee have in misleading the customer? Many a lawsuits have awarded customers for such a thing. A customer can win a lawsuit like this because there is a level of responsibly that an employee has to knowing the product it's selling. How much more is that responsibility when it comes to life!



I NEVER said they don't have a responsibility to take care of the animals in their care. I said they don't have a responsibility to make sure the animal goes to a good home and they DO NOT. Read what I wrote again and you will see. Petsmart does not and never will visit your home to make sure you will take care of that animal. To say they should be responsible or MORE responsible than a potential buyer to educate themselves on the care of the reptile is just silly. Why do people do loads of research when buying a new TV but they will go out and pick up a tortoise on a whim, expecting a pimple faced teenager to properly instruct them in it's care? Makes no sense to me. And wether you agree or not, it is in fact a business out to make a profit. I do not agree with it but it is what it is and saying it is wrong and won't change things. Petsmart is fine with how things are and they are not willingly going to sacrafice their profit margins to build huge, proper enclosures. Just not going to happen. What they need to do, is not sell these animals in stores. How hard would it be for them to set up an off site center to care for the animals and ship them like LLL or Turtlesource? Or better yet, leave them in the wild and stop selling them all together.
I do have a good news story though. I went to a Petsmart a month ago and complained about the fruity pebbles and last night when I went in, they were feeding fresh broad leaf and Mazzuri to them. They also had a much bigger water dish with sides to high for the tort but way better than the little pos they had in there before. So, they do listen and they CAN opperate within corporate policies and still provide a good place for the animal to spend it's time waiting for adoption.

And ultimately it is a USERS responsibility to educate themselves, not the store employee. Your example is flawed. I have asked about lots of items I've purchased but the responsibility lies with the manufactuer and myself to figure out how to use it, NOT, as you say on the employee at the store. Sales persons are not legally required to know everything about everything they sell as you say. Nope nope nope.


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## stinax182 (Dec 2, 2013)

i think the point is IF an employee feels the need to give advice on how to care for a pet, they then have the responsibility to know what they're talking about. it's as simple as, if you have nothing good to say, don't say anything. if you don't know how to care for the tort, then simply say, "sorry, I'm not very familiar with them. you should do a bit of research first, maybe buy one of our books on tortoise care" i know most of the books are outdated but i understand the employer would frown on their employee telling a potential buyer to leave and do research, possibly loosing the sale. but just the fact that the employee doesn't know how to case for them may make the person second guess their choice. the biggest thing I'd wish they'd advertise better was how long they live....many people have no idea. i feel if the expected lifespan was primarily showed, it would detour a lot of buyers. "Russian tortoise will likely outlive you!"


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## Yvonne G (Dec 2, 2013)

I've asked this before and I'll ask it again:

What ever happened to the law that told pet stores all across the good ol' US of A that they had to provide a care sheet for every animal, bird, reptile they sell?

If the clerk doesn't know the answer to questions about animal care, all he would have to do is pull up the care sheet they're supposed to have on hand and say, "I don't know, but we do provide a care sheet for you."


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## sibi (Dec 2, 2013)

Let's just get something clear. I didn't say that you said pet stores had to made sure the animals they sell should go to good homes. Listen well to what you said. Ypu


Saleama said:


> sibi said:
> 
> 
> > Stephen, the only problem I have with your statement that stores are in this for the profit, and have no responsibilities toward the animals they are trying to sell is dead wrong. These stores aren't selling inanimate objects. It's not like a table or lamp. This is a life...a life that these stores have a responsibility to treat humanly. There are even laws that protect animals who are abused. So, to say that stores don't have a responsibility toward the animals they're selling is not true. However, employees have to follow the store's policies on setups. Even so, employees should be knowledgeable about their products. Take for instance a salesperson who is selling a tank heater to someone, and tells the person that the product was made to go in water because it's totally airtight. Ultimately, it's the customer's responsibility to read the instructions first before using it. But, since the sales person said it can be used in water, the customer put it under water and got electrocuted. How much responsibility did the employee have in misleading the customer? Many a lawsuits have awarded customers for such a thing. A customer can win a lawsuit like this because there is a level of responsibly that an employee has to knowing the product it's selling. How much more is that responsibility when it comes to life!
> ...


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## smylemaker (Dec 2, 2013)

stinax182 said:


> the biggest thing I'd wish they'd advertise better was how long they live....many people have no idea. i feel if the expected lifespan was primarily showed, it would detour a lot of buyers. "Russian tortoise will likely outlive you!"



I agree with you , most people buy on a whim, and dont take into consideration that these are living creatures who will be with you a long long time . even parrots are like this... and too many ppl dont think before they buy


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## Jacqui (Dec 2, 2013)

Yvonne G said:


> I've asked this before and I'll ask it again:
> 
> What ever happened to the law that told pet stores all across the good ol' US of A that they had to provide a care sheet for every animal, bird, reptile they sell?



I did not know there was such a law. Petco does have care sheets in easy to see locations that your free to take (so I assume that counts). Is it only petshops that have to do this? I have never had a breeder or online tortoise dealer offer me any care sheets at all. A few, but not all sellers at reptile shows have had some.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 2, 2013)

I guess I have to admit to being wrong once again. ***bows her head in shame!***

The little box over on the left margin says it's a California law:

http://www.petstorecaresheets.com/


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## Jacqui (Dec 2, 2013)

Yvonne G said:


> I guess I have to admit to being wrong once again. ***bows her head in shame!***



Oh NO!! Say it isn't true!! 



Yvonne you can't be wrong... 'sides at worse your only a little wrong.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 2, 2013)

Yeah, only 49 states worth of wrong! A California law, indeed! Humph!


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## Saleama (Dec 2, 2013)

stinax182 said:


> i think the point is IF an employee feels the need to give advice on how to care for a pet, they then have the responsibility to know what they're talking about. it's as simple as, if you have nothing good to say, don't say anything. if you don't know how to care for the tort, then simply say, "sorry, I'm not very familiar with them. you should do a bit of research first, maybe buy one of our books on tortoise care" i know most of the books are outdated but i understand the employer would frown on their employee telling a potential buyer to leave and do research, possibly loosing the sale. but just the fact that the employee doesn't know how to case for them may make the person second guess their choice. the biggest thing I'd wish they'd advertise better was how long they live....many people have no idea. i feel if the expected lifespan was primarily showed, it would detour a lot of buyers. "Russian tortoise will likely outlive you!"



They "know" what they are told and if they believe their employer, like the customer believes them, why should they try and learn more? Not my opinion just the reality.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Dec 2, 2013)

Here's what I do: I write a nice letter to the district manager, stating this is what I saw and heard, and adding as a lover of animals I am calling this to your attention for a positive outcome, and that I know their company wants to do the right thing otherwise their profit is tainted, and that I am long time customer and would really like to ask for his consideration to rectify this matter for the sake of the voiceless animals they have chosen to do business with ... then I send it certified. Works like a charm and changes are made, until there is employee or management turnover. Then you do it again. Certified letters to politicians also work by the way. Be the voice! : )


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## AlishaT (Dec 2, 2013)

Uh, I was just standing in the store and needed to vent...


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## doletorts (Dec 2, 2013)

In response to care sheets. I got my redfoot on friday and weve been going to stores for a month or so and most stores had the care sheets and overall they were helpful but no where near as detailed as they should be, im just glad i found this forum over the summer and did my research. And for the employee issue. I (a 14yr old kid) could tell most employees had no clue what they were talking about, BUT a few who had reptiles did. Although only one employee had the guts to say that he didnt really know anything about torts but another employee who's shift started in a half hour had a sulcata and we could talk to him. And i thank that man because he gave us real info about proper care and used the tanks in the store to show us what not to do


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## sibi (Dec 2, 2013)

Stephen, I was not referring to any employees' responsibility to see that pets are placed in good homes. Let's get real here. You know exactly what I was referring to. You stated yourself that stores are in it for the money...that sometimes mean they sell animals that they shouldn't...




Saleama said:


> AlishaT said:
> 
> 
> > smylemaker said:
> ...


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## sibi (Dec 2, 2013)

*[split] I'm in petco and I want to scream!!*

Stephen, I couldn't respond to you earlier because I'm dealing with an emergency rescue. My response is: I was NOT referring to any employees' responsibility to see that pets are placed in good homes. Let's get real here. You know exactly what I was referring to. You stated yourself that "stores are in it for the money...that sometimes they sell animals that they shouldn't...and keep them in ways that don't look very good." Sorry to disappoint you but IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY! Stores are accountable for the animals they sell, how they keep them, and responsible for their employees. That means that if an employee gives bad information, and a customer comes back and complains, often the store manager has to compensate the customer for whatever damage was done. Sometimes, it even goes to court. So, don't try to skew the details because you are wrong! Accurate care sheets are required by law to be provided to customers. And while there is some allowances for size of enclosures, etc., profits can't take priority when it comes to live animals. And, all you out there who defend the practices of petco or petsmart stores I say, SHAME ON YOU!!! I'm not alone either. The law sees to it that stores don't mistreat animals over profits, although some still do. Do you honestly think that these stores would voluntary provide care sheets and take care that they don't abuse the animals if they weren't forced to? Remember, I'm not the enemy here. I'm for the enrichment of the lives of animals who can't defend themselves. 

Having said that, let me just clarify something. I AM NOT AGAINST EMPLOYEES OF PETCO OR PETSMART! I'm not against profits except when it comes to lives of people or animals. I have seen improvements in pet stores when it comes to providing hides, lighting, water and food. But, more improvements are needed nationwide in local pet stores. Flyers and care sheets should be provided with this forums website so that people can be educated on care of torts and reptiles everywhere.



Saleama said:


> AlishaT said:
> 
> 
> > smylemaker said:
> ...


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## Saleama (Dec 3, 2013)

sibi said:


> Stephen, I couldn't respond to you earlier because I'm dealing with an emergency rescue. My response is: I was NOT referring to any employees' responsibility to see that pets are placed in good homes. Let's get real here. You know exactly what I was referring to. You stated yourself that "stores are in it for the money...that sometimes they sell animals that they shouldn't...and keep them in ways that don't look very good." Sorry to disappoint you but IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY! Stores are accountable for the animals they sell, how they keep them, and responsible for their employees. That means that if an employee gives bad information, and a customer comes back and complains, often the store manager has to compensate the customer for whatever damage was done. Sometimes, it even goes to court. So, don't try to skew the details because you are wrong! Accurate care sheets are required by law to be provided to customers. And while there is some allowances for size of enclosures, etc., profits can't take priority when it comes to live animals. And, all you out there who defend the practices of petco or petsmart stores I say, SHAME ON YOU!!! I'm not alone either. The law sees to it that stores don't mistreat animals over profits, although some still do. Do you honestly think that these stores would voluntary provide care sheets and take care that they don't abuse the animals if they weren't forced to? Remember, I'm not the enemy here. I'm for the enrichment of the lives of animals who can't defend themselves.
> 
> Having said that, let me just clarify something. I AM NOT AGAINST EMPLOYEES OF PETCO OR PETSMART! I'm not against profits except when it comes to lives of people or animals. I have seen improvements in pet stores when it comes to providing hides, lighting, water and food. But, more improvements are needed nationwide in local pet stores. Flyers and care sheets should be provided with this forums website so that people can be educated on care of torts and reptiles everywhere.
> 
> ...



I'm done arguing with you. Read the opening comment again please. This ENTIRE thread was about the stores responsibility to ensure the customer could and would care for the animal and it is NOT. Nothing I said indicated that I THOUGHT the store was not responsible for the care of the animal. I stated the reality of the situation. Your not understanding what is being said is not my problem.


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## sibi (Dec 3, 2013)

Stephen, that's fine with me. Sorry if you can't defend your own words. You can't go back and try to say you was addressing the original point of the thread because you went BEYOND that in your comments. I'm done here too.


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## Saleama (Dec 3, 2013)

Hard to defend them when you consistantly interpret what you read incorrectly. I stated facts about what happens, not opinions about what should happen like you do. There is NO argueing with facts. Now I am done.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 3, 2013)

AlishaT said:


> Uh, I was just standing in the store and needed to vent...ðŸ˜•



Sorry, Alisha. We've really gone off on a tangent, even though it pertains to the subject matter. You've opened a can of worms, but please don't think you've caused this argument. You posted the thread in the "debatable topics" section, and that gave us the idea that you wanted some pros and cons, so that's what we've been doing.

It's a hot topic, but we can learn from both sides.

Moderator note: I've removed the last couple of comments made by Sibi and Saleama because they were no longer germain to the topic. Both sides made their point. If someone chooses to not understand or agree with that point, that's the end of it.


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## Jacqui (Dec 3, 2013)

Ummm Yvonne actually I moved it from general topics to the debate section, because it had become a debate type thread. Alsiha did not put it in here.


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## sibi (Dec 3, 2013)

Yvonne, what I wrote was right on the topic. You take liberties with posts that make me (and other members) feel like censorship is at play here. I know you think we are rehashing the same old points, but I don't think so. I was trying to make a clearer point for why I wrote what I wrote. Now, I fully see why members leave or are fed up with mods deleting threads. My posts did not contain any bad language, insults, name calling, etc. So, why don't you allow my comments to be read? What rules am I breaking? Why is there censorship (other than for obvious reasons) at this forum?

I want my comments put back in, PLEASE. Because if you don't allow the comments you don't want in, you might as well close the topic. I'm sure you can do that WITHOUT Alisha's consent.


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## AlishaT (Dec 3, 2013)

Jacqui said:


> Ummm Yvonne actually I moved it from general topics to the debate section, because it had become a debate type thread. Alsiha did not put it in here.



Whew, glad I didn't start debate![SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]


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