# whats my subspecies



## John (Apr 8, 2011)

I'd like everyones input on this animals subspecies.and take a stab at sex just for fun.thanks, john


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## jeffbens0n (Apr 8, 2011)

I know you mentioned before you thought it was a hybrid and i can definitely see that. It has some of the p.p. characteristics but it still has a look of a babcock for some reason.


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## Edna (Apr 8, 2011)

I'd be out of place even guessing on subspecies. However, I noticed in your "Jersey Shore" pics how much bigger this one looks compared to the others. Is this one the same age as your others?


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## Yvonne G (Apr 8, 2011)

Most of the "in-the-know" herpetologists say there aren't sub species in the leopard family.

But, lowly hobby keeper that I am, I feel there are. And yours is in the South African group.


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## kbaker (Apr 8, 2011)

G.p.p.


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## Neal (Apr 8, 2011)

What did Richard tell you about this one? It definatley has characteristics of both pardalis and babcocki, but looks more pardalis.


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## bikerchicspain (Apr 8, 2011)

I am with others on this,it's definately got one or even both parra is in him..
I think he's a male


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## Az tortoise compound (Apr 8, 2011)

For what it's worth....Looks like male "G.p.p." to me
or S.p.p. (whatever it is today)


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## bikerchicspain (Apr 8, 2011)

Oh come on the suspense is killing me, 

Tell us pleaseeeeee,

Oh and I want one.


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## onarock (Apr 8, 2011)

John, definate hybrid.


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## John (Apr 8, 2011)

Edna said:


> I'd be out of place even guessing on subspecies. However, I noticed in your "Jersey Shore" pics how much bigger this one looks compared to the others. Is this one the same age as your others?



yes


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## coreyc (Apr 8, 2011)

squamata said:


> Edna said:
> 
> 
> > I'd be out of place even guessing on subspecies. However, I noticed in your "Jersey Shore" pics how much bigger this one looks compared to the others. Is this one the same age as your others?
> ...



Your saying they are all the same age wow what is the weight difference ? How old are they ? He looks great


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## John (Apr 8, 2011)

Neal said:


> What did Richard tell you about this one? It definatley has characteristics of both pardalis and babcocki, but looks more pardalis.



I have not recieved a response from Richard yet,I sent him a second email with pics this time.Maybe it will help him to remember,october was a long time ago.lol



onarock said:


> John, definate hybrid.



Based on what Paul?


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## onarock (Apr 8, 2011)

Size, coloration. See his 3rd vertebral scute? Notice how the first two vertebrals slope back to that one? And, that third one is back of center. gpp are known to be more back heavy where gpb are more front heavy (less sloping from 1-3). Also, the skin is slightly speckeled. I have seen gpb with similar skin but the speckels tend to not be as dark or pronounced. The plastron has more markings than the average gpb , but not as much as th average gpp. I think its a hybrid, but favoring more of the gpp traits. Based on that John


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## John (Apr 8, 2011)

coreyc said:


> squamata said:
> 
> 
> > Edna said:
> ...



Sorry my quick one word replie here is misleading.So what I should have said is the smallest one is only a few months old,the other three I aquired within a few weeks of each other and were all the same size(I am not sure of thier ages)so lets just say I have had the three larger ones since nov1 2010 give or take a week,right now the "hybrid" is 120g and 3.2 inches,while the next larger tort is at 2.5" and 63 gr the next is 2.5 and 54 gr.as of nov 1 they were (in the same order)2.5" 52gr-2.2" 52gr-2.2" 46gr


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## Balboa (Apr 8, 2011)

Hehe John,

What that guy is, is Geochelone (Stigmochelys) Pardalis Beauticus


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## John (Apr 8, 2011)

onarock said:


> Size, coloration. See his 3rd vertebral scute? Notice how the first two vertebrals slope back to that one? And, that third one is back of center. gpp are known to be more back heavy where gpb are more front heavy (less sloping from 1-3). Also, the skin is slightly speckeled. I have seen gpb with similar skin but the speckels tend to not be as dark or pronounced. The plastron has more markings than the average gpb , but not as much as th average gpp. I think its a hybrid, but favoring more of the gpp traits. Based on that John



And when you say are known to be,that would apply to s.p.p in its natural habitat that did not have the pet trade standard two dots?


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## Balboa (Apr 8, 2011)

Paul's sure been doing his research.


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## John (Apr 8, 2011)

Balboa said:


> Hehe John,
> 
> What that guy is, is Geochelone (Stigmochelys) Pardalis Beauticus



HAHA Brett,hold on to your hat I am stiring up the volcano over there in Hawaya. 



Balboa said:


> Paul's sure been doing his research.



aaaaaaaa Maybe not,He has gone from definate to I think already.


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## onarock (Apr 8, 2011)

LOL, John, John, John... Don't start.  But, no, I was referring to the pet trade CLADE! 

Forgot to ad that Tom recently posted some plastron shots of both gpp and gpb hatchlings that you might want to check out. I forget the name of the thread, but very good pics.

Its definate! Hybrid!


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## John (Apr 8, 2011)

onarock said:


> LOL, John, John, John... Don't start.  But, no, I was referring to the pet trade CLADE!
> 
> Forgot to ad that Tom recently posted some plastron shots of both gpp and gpb hatchlings that you might want to check out. I forget the name of the thread, but very good pics.
> 
> Its definate! Hybrid!





lol,o.k o.k already



onarock said:


> LOL, John, John, John... Don't start.  But, no, I was referring to the pet trade CLADE!
> 
> Forgot to ad that Tom recently posted some plastron shots of both gpp and gpb hatchlings that you might want to check out. I forget the name of the thread, but very good pics.
> 
> Its definate! Hybrid!





Those are good pics Tom posted,Here are a couple shots of the plastron of one of my known to be babcockers


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## John (Apr 9, 2011)

emysemys said:


> Most of the "in-the-know" herpetologists say there aren't sub species in the leopard family.
> 
> But, lowly hobby keeper that I am, I feel there are. And yours is in the South African group.



Well Yvonne that depends on which side of the "in the know"you subscribe to.while some argue to unrecognize spb. others argue there are actually several subspecies. lol its the never ending tortoise riddle


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## John (Apr 9, 2011)

onarock said:


> LOL, John, John, John... Don't start.  But, no, I was referring to the pet trade CLADE!
> 
> Forgot to ad that Tom recently posted some plastron shots of both gpp and gpb hatchlings that you might want to check out. I forget the name of the thread, but very good pics.
> 
> Its definate! Hybrid!





So as I have stated the theory that a person who actually imported south africans into this country could have brought in specimens that do not have the pet trade markings,and due too the pet trade standard would be forced to sell offspring as something they are not which would be spb.and it could also be argued that these same animals were labeled "hybrids" by the pet trade out of lack of knowledge or just the convienence of having a standard people would accept,since the only true way to know forsure is expensive dna testing.And to go even further it could also be argued that same animals could have interbred in the wild,which could also open the argument that the animals that fit the hobby standard are in fact the ones that have interbred in the wild and the specimens that were taken from south africa that do not have these markings are in fact the pure ones.


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## onarock (Apr 9, 2011)

John, I agree with the first part. I would say that people expect certain things when purchasing gpp. One of them is that their tortoise will grow big. If they give proper care and that tort never reaches 20" and more than 40- 50 lbs there will be disappointment. 

The second part. I agree that there needs to be more genetic studies. There are evolutionary genetic markers within pardalis. I was discussing this with a forum member a few days ago. Chew on this and see what you come up with, but it just might help you when thinking about pardalis as a species in particular the different locals........Leopard tortoises are just giant tent tortoises (psammobates). Let me know how that works out


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## Neal (Apr 9, 2011)

Well, Paul is the master  but let me make a humble comment. It is believed by some that the greatest genetic diversity in Geochelone Pardalis exists in the southern most location of it's natural range. It MAY be possible, and even likely, that Richard happens to have adults from different localities than those most commonly seen in the pet trade, and the tortoise you have is one of its offspring. It would be impossible really to know exactly where his adults came from so there is no way to confirm this, but it's just something to think about. 

Forgive me for making assumptions about someone else, but from reading his book alone, he doesn't seem like the type of breeder who would "cross breed" the two types (my opinion). If the parents are from a different locality than what we are used to seeing and the breeder did not cross breed, that explains why it looks unique. And assuming that the greater diversity exists in the southern localities, that might explain why it looks more "Gpp".


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## John (Apr 9, 2011)

Neal said:


> Well, Paul is the master  but let me make a humble comment. It is believed by some that the greatest genetic diversity in Geochelone Pardalis exists in the southern most location of it's natural range. It MAY be possible, and even likely, that Richard happens to have adults from different localities than those most commonly seen in the pet trade, and the tortoise you have is one of its offspring. It would be impossible really to know exactly where his adults came from so there is no way to confirm this, but it's just something to think about.
> 
> Forgive me for making assumptions about someone else, but from reading his book alone, he doesn't seem like the type of breeder who would "cross breed" the two types (my opinion). If the parents are from a different locality than what we are used to seeing and the breeder did not cross breed, that explains why it looks unique. And assuming that the greater diversity exists in the southern localities, that might explain why it looks more "Gpp".



Neal, I agree,the gut feeling you have about richard is the same one I have



onarock said:


> John, I agree with the first part. I would say that people expect certain things when purchasing gpp. One of them is that their tortoise will grow big. If they give proper care and that tort never reaches 20" and more than 40- 50 lbs there will be disappointment.
> 
> The second part. I agree that there needs to be more genetic studies. There are evolutionary genetic markers within pardalis. I was discussing this with a forum member a few days ago. Chew on this and see what you come up with, but it just might help you when thinking about pardalis as a species in particular the different locals........Leopard tortoises are just giant tent tortoises (psammobates). Let me know how that works out



Dude I respect you so I'll just say no chewing involved,since day one I had my suspicions,Without giving it any thought I would probably look not only at the tent tortoise but also Psammobates geometricus,there have been studies done of extinct species based on fossil remains.could it be all these tortoises came from a single species a million years ago and broke off and evolved to what they are today?


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## onarock (Apr 9, 2011)

John . I just call them all tent tortoises (old habit), but yes geometricus is also included.


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## Tom (Apr 9, 2011)

Who Is Richard? Fife? He told me in November that he only has ONE SA Leopard left. I have no idea what the state of the wild ones is, but that one looks like a hybrid of the two commonly available types in the hobby to me. There is lots of color variation in both types. I would not argue if someone said they knew for sure that was a Gpp, but based on color, shape and the fact that there are lots of "hybrids" out in the world, I would GUESS that this one is a hybrid with strong Gpp traits. Of course, all the possibilities listed above could be true too.

... and I'd guess female on the sex.


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## John (Apr 9, 2011)

Tom said:


> Who Is Richard? Fife? He told me in November that he only has ONE SA Leopard left. I have no idea what the state of the wild ones is, but that one looks like a hybrid of the two commonly available types in the hobby to me. There is lots of color variation in both types. I would not argue if someone said they knew for sure that was a Gpp, but based on color, shape and the fact that there are lots of "hybrids" out in the world, I would GUESS that this one is a hybrid with strong Gpp traits. Of course, all the possibilities listed above could be true too.
> 
> ... and I'd guess female on the sex.



So tell me,just how do our scientific friends classify a species or sub species Tom,is it by color or size maybe shape or diet or maybe country of origin or maybe simply word of mouth.hmmm yet another thing for me to ponder in my free time. P.S. man i hope your right on the sex guess


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## Tom (Apr 9, 2011)

The criterion for determining sub species or even species is as variable as it is subjective. Often with reptiles it is scute (or scale) counts and skull or bone structure. The scientific community is constantly arguing about the criteria as well as the species and subspecies. I have no idea how they decided to classify the leopard tortoises, but I know how its been since the late 80's. That's why I still use Geochelone. That's how I learned it 20 some odd years ago and, darn it, I don't want to change it now. The scientists should have to ask society at large to vote on whether or not we want their changes to the nomenclature!


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## John (Apr 9, 2011)

So now that we have entered the age of dna shall we still procede with the "dated" as some forum members like to call it?


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## Tom (Apr 9, 2011)

squamata said:


> So now that we have entered the age of dna shall we still procede with the "dated" as some forum members like to call it?



Well, I'm not sure what you mean, but I DO know the scientists will still argue over the DNA results!


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## John (Apr 9, 2011)

Tom said:


> squamata said:
> 
> 
> > So now that we have entered the age of dna shall we still procede with the "dated" as some forum members like to call it?
> ...



lol I here ya by the way it was supposed to say material after the dated


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## onarock (Apr 9, 2011)

What do they argue over? The validity of the results? The application of the results (should they be valid) and weather or not they can influence taxa? I would love to read any info regarding this as it pertains to tortoises, moreover pardalis.



Tom said:


> squamata said:
> 
> 
> > So now that we have entered the age of dna shall we still procede with the "dated" as some forum members like to call it?
> ...


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