# Breeding beginner friendly?



## RayRay (Nov 20, 2015)

I am a new tortoise keeper and have loved seeing the pictures of eggs hatching and the cute little hatchlings.

I was wondering is breeding a good supplementary income?

And how do people sale hatchlings if its illegal?

What's a good species to start with?

And is there a lot of breeders in the USA? I dont want to step on anyone's toes.


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## dmmj (Nov 20, 2015)

you won't be stepping on anyone's toes it's a free market. good income that depends most people do it for the love of it and the money this helps their hobby. Best species that I can't answer sorry.


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## RayRay (Nov 20, 2015)

dmmj said:


> you won't be stepping on anyone's toes it's a free market. good income that depends most people do it for the love of it and the money this helps their hobby. Best species that I can't answer sorry.



Ok thanks


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 20, 2015)

Unless you take it on on a very large scale, I don't think you'll get rich selling and raising tortoises.
Best species? In your case....Hot and dry.


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## RayRay (Nov 20, 2015)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Unless you take it on on a very large scale, I don't think you'll get rich selling and raising tortoises.
> Best species? In your case....Hot and dry.



I meant it more of would it be something that could help me move out of my parents house?

And what do you mean by the species? I know no tropical ones.


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 20, 2015)

RayRay said:


> I meant it more of would it be something that could help me move out of my parents house?
> 
> And what do you mean by the species? I know no tropical ones.


Florida is very tropical and Redfoot do well here. I was suggesting something that like hot and dry. Like desert tortoises. 
There are people that do make a living raising and selling tortoises. Do you have a lot of room outside to make pens, etc?


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## RayRay (Nov 20, 2015)

I live on a family farm but my family only has 1 acre for our house and so does everyone else.


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 20, 2015)

I can see a small production tortoise farm happening on 1/2 or 1/3 acre area. It could work.


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## RayRay (Nov 20, 2015)

would sulcatas fit or would that be to small? I was thinking Russians and sulcatas might be nice to breed.


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## Lyn W (Nov 20, 2015)

How long have you kept torts?


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## dwright27 (Nov 20, 2015)

I'm not a breeder, so feel free to take what I say with a grain of salt.

I don't think that breeding torts will help you become financially independent, at least not for a long time. I would think that you would need a lot of money up front, in order to keep your breeding stock happy and healthy. And depending on how many tortoises you have, their care can get quite expensive. 

I also don't know what kind of toll the incubators etc will have on the electricity bill, but that might be okay since you are in a climate where you can keep your adults outside. 

There is also the waiting for however many weeks/months it takes for eggs to hatch, if they hatch at all. I'm not familiar with the timelines of different species. 

I don't think that any responsible breeders of any kind of animal are financially independent without some other form of income. Unless you are breeding hundreds of them in a year maybe, lol. But I think that there are probably better ways to make money out there. 

That being said, if you do decide to start breeding, I wish you the best of luck. You have a great source of information in this group. You will receive solid advice here every step of the way.


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## RayRay (Nov 20, 2015)

Lyn W said:


> How long have you kept torts?



I have had one baby sulcata since July 2 I think was the day he arrived.


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## RayRay (Nov 20, 2015)

dwright27 said:


> I'm not a breeder, so feel free to take what I say with a grain of salt.
> 
> I don't think that breeding torts will help you become financially independent, at least not for a long time. I would think that you would need a lot of money up front, in order to keep your breeding stock happy and healthy. And depending on how many tortoises you have, their care can get quite expensive.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I do have a.job as a janitor at the local school I was just wondering if itd be enough to make buying a "tiny house" possible.


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## dmmj (Nov 20, 2015)

house? Not very likely


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## dwright27 (Nov 20, 2015)

I'm not a good financial person lol I still live at home too. But I know that every breeder of dogs and birds that I've spoken to has said the same thing: they're lucky to break even. Not sure if the same applies to torts but it's quite probable. 

There is just so much to consider when getting into breeding that I know that I couldn't do it. But your situation is different, you might be able to do it and thrive. I dunno. Hopefully some more people can weigh in. This is a good topic to discuss!


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## Tom (Nov 20, 2015)

RayRay said:


> I am a new tortoise keeper and have loved seeing the pictures of eggs hatching and the cute little hatchlings.
> 
> I was wondering is breeding a good supplementary income?
> 
> ...



Tortoises should not be bred with the intention of gaining supplemental income in my opinion. To do it right will cost more than you will make.

Tortoises should be bred because you love them and there is a need for the species you want to breed. Breeding russians would be a great idea. There are plenty of people already breeding sulcatas and that need is already met. No need for anyone new to start up.

It is not illegal to sell hatchlings for education or research. Its also not illegal for hobbyists to sell off their excess hatchlings. Its only illegal for commercial operations to be selling chelonians under four inches. These are the federal regs. They sometimes vary state by state.

Any of the Testudo species would be good to start with.

Yes there are a lot of breeders in the US, but I would not worry about that. There are enough customers to go around. If you concentrate on quality over quantity, you will do well.


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## RayRay (Nov 20, 2015)

Ok thanks.

and I do love my tortoise i have and the reason why I wanted to do Russians is because I've seen you and others say they are getting taken from the wild at unsustainable levels, and I just meant the supplementary money as just being better then what I have.

I guess its not really tho. What counts as commercial versus hobbyist?


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## RayRay (Nov 20, 2015)

Tom said:


> Tortoises should not be bred with the intention of gaining supplemental income in my opinion. To do it right will cost more than you will make.
> 
> Tortoises should be bred because you love them and there is a need for the species you want to breed. Breeding russians would be a great idea. There are plenty of people already breeding sulcatas and that need is already met. No need for anyone new to start up.
> 
> ...



If I do decide to breed Russians should I buy wild caught adults since they are going to be here anyways and they wont be as likely to be inbreeding as a smaller gene pool?

And how long would quarantine take for wc to wc breeding? And I have read someone talking about having to euthanize some wc adults they bought because of deseases is that common?


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## Lyn W (Nov 20, 2015)

RayRay said:


> I have had one baby sulcata since July 2 I think was the day he arrived.


With all due respect Ray, with only a few months experience of keeping a tort under your belt I would wait a good while yet to make sure you at least have the basic of keeping them healthy and happy well and truely nailed before bringing babies into your world. I have had my tort for 18 months and even now after regularly reading, searching and posting here I still have a mountain of things to learn and still find out something new everyday.

You also have to weigh up the costs of all the equipment, incubators, brooders, heated enclosures and heat, uvb sources therefore elec bills as well as back up vets fees, plus the time it takes to look after hatchlings and make sure they are started properly and healthy.

Maybe breeding them is easier than I think and I became a keeper by accident, but if I was going to buy from a breeder I would want to know he was very experienced in tort keeping and knew what he was talking about so that he could give me the correct information. There are people who have bought from breeders who haven't been too well informed and looks to me as if they are just in it for the money which I find sad.

So from one novice to another I think my advice would be to make sure you can walk before you run.


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## dmmj (Nov 21, 2015)

like said before you do it because you have a passion for it not to make money the money is in inconsequential to the passion. that's my thoughts on it. but believe me we need more good breeders out there.


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## RayRay (Nov 21, 2015)

Lyn W said:


> With all due respect Ray, with only a few months experience of keeping a tort under your belt I would wait a good while yet to make sure you at least have the basic of keeping them healthy and happy well and truely nailed before bringing babies into your world. I have had my tort for 18 months and even now after regularly reading, searching and posting here I still have a mountain of things to learn and still find out something new everyday.
> 
> You also have to weigh up the costs of all the equipment, incubators, brooders, heated enclosures and heat, uvb sources therefore elec bills as well as back up vets fees, plus the time it takes to look after hatchlings and make sure they are started properly and healthy.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the advice I was going to wait tell after winter if I did do it but do you think that's to early still?


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## RayRay (Nov 21, 2015)

dmmj said:


> like said before you do it because you have a passion for it not to make money the money is in inconsequential to the passion. that's my thoughts on it. but believe me we need more good breeders out there.



I was just wondering about the money, I'm not going to be having a "tortoise mill".


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## dmmj (Nov 21, 2015)

how much money you could make should be simple to figure out. how much could you get for each hatchling how many hatchlings can you produce.that - your cost you know vet bills electricity food should give you a rough idea what you could expect to make. Russian hatchlings go for around 100 to 150. females lay around 4 to 6 eggs. females usually only lay 1 clutch. solve for x


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## Lyn W (Nov 21, 2015)

RayRay said:


> Thanks for the advice I was going to wait tell after winter if I did do it but do you think that's to early still?


For me it would be - I would want to be sure I know 100% what I'm doing in all aspects of tort care of any age, so would give myself a much longer time to learn as much as possible and to make sure any babies were having the best start in life.
Also if you are thinking of breeding with a different species the care may be different for them to the one you have so you have to learn about that too.
A lot to weigh up really but at the heart if it, the torts and babies welfare must be paramount so you have to get it right.


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## dwright27 (Nov 21, 2015)

I'm with @Tom and @Lyn W . The only thing I don't agree with is the part about being 100% certain about their care, because I don't know that we'll ever get to 100%. 

Most breeders have kept tortoises of their preferred species for several years before they start breeding. 6-8 months is not long enough, IMO. Sorry we can't tell you what you want to hear..


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## Tom (Nov 21, 2015)

RayRay said:


> What counts as commercial versus hobbyist?



This is a very tricky question, and its open to interpretation by each and every enforcement officer and the courts too, should it get that far.

Generally speaking, any definition will have egregious examples that refute it. One example: If a person makes more selling tortoises than they do at their "regular job", then I would say they've moved into the realm of "commercial" sales. But this doesn't make sense in some cases. What if a guy is a top surgeon and makes $500,000 a year at his "regular" job, and then for a hobby he breeds large numbers of Galopagos, radiated and burmese star tortoises. Supposed he sells $490,000 worth of baby tortoise from his "hobby" outside of his normal job. I don't know any commercial breeder selling $490,000 worth of tortoises each year. Then suppose we have a car mechanic who works at a dealership. Our mechanic makes $45,000 a year and also keeps some radiated tortoises as a hobby. Maybe our guy sells 50 Radiated babies in a good year and makes $50,000. Is he now a "commercial breeder" because he sold more in tortoise than he earned at his "regular" job? One guy sold almost ten times as many as the other, but since he makes more at his "regular job" my definition fails.


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## Tom (Nov 21, 2015)

RayRay said:


> If I do decide to breed Russians should I buy wild caught adults since they are going to be here anyways and they wont be as likely to be inbreeding as a smaller gene pool?
> 
> And how long would quarantine take for wc to wc breeding? And I have read someone talking about having to euthanize some wc adults they bought because of deseases is that common?



Quarantine for a newly imported russian should be 6-12 months. If you got one large group all at the same time from the same source, they could just all be set up together with no quarantine. Quarantine would only come in for tortoises from multiple sources.

You can find a mixed gene pool from multiple CB sources. That's what I did. Or you can do a mix of CB and long term captives.

Yes, some adult WC animals have come in riddled with all sorts of diseases, but many more have come in and been fine.


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## keepergale (Nov 21, 2015)

I always thought if you start with hatchling by the time they are breeding age you will be knowledgeable enough to be a breeder.


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## RayRay (Nov 21, 2015)

Thanks for all of the great replies guys and girls.

I guess I will wait tell I get more experienced and also have my own property so there wont be any parental limitations as well


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## dwright27 (Nov 21, 2015)

Glad to hear it. Enjoy your sully and share your experiences with the forum.


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## jaizei (Nov 22, 2015)

Tom said:


> This is a very tricky question, and its open to interpretation by each and every enforcement officer and the courts too, should it get that far.
> 
> Generally speaking, any definition will have egregious examples that refute it. One example: If a person makes more selling tortoises than they do at their "regular job", then I would say they've moved into the realm of "commercial" sales. But this doesn't make sense in some cases. What if a guy is a top surgeon and makes $500,000 a year at his "regular" job, and then for a hobby he breeds large numbers of Galopagos, radiated and burmese star tortoises. Supposed he sells $490,000 worth of baby tortoise from his "hobby" outside of his normal job. I don't know any commercial breeder selling $490,000 worth of tortoises each year. Then suppose we have a car mechanic who works at a dealership. Our mechanic makes $45,000 a year and also keeps some radiated tortoises as a hobby. Maybe our guy sells 50 Radiated babies in a good year and makes $50,000. Is he now a "commercial breeder" because he sold more in tortoise than he earned at his "regular" job? One guy sold almost ten times as many as the other, but since he makes more at his "regular job" my definition fails.



I think it's substantially less complicated than you do. Do the breeders in your example operate as a business (behavior wise), i.e. are they trying to make a profit? Are they using a dba or are they incorporated? Do they have a storefront/website? Do they sell other products (lamps, food, etc)? Are they writing off expenses, and how?

How much money someone makes selling tortoises vs their 'real' job has nothing to do with whether something is considered a business or not. You're supposed to pay tax on the income regardless of it being from a hobby or a business, so it makes much more sense to be a business than a hobbyist. If they're regularly making a profit, then there's little to no reason to say they're a hobbyist and not a business. Getting around that 4" rule is just about it. It's not any different than all those websites that have that silly 'turtles under 4 inches sold only for educational or research purposes' disclaimer.


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## theguy67 (Nov 22, 2015)

I'm surprised at how friendly everyone was answering this type of question. Many other forums (of other reptiles) become very,...stern with their responses, almost offended.

For me, I do think someone can make a decent profit from breeding reptiles, even as a primary income, but to get there is a lot of work. Those that eventually arrive at those sort of numbers are probably the ones that have enough passion to survive the years of learning. This hobby can be very rewarding, but stressful at times. If you do not have passion you will not receive any reward, which will cause you to burn out early. The problem people on the outside make is they see these high priced babies, and do quick math and think "whoa, I could be rich". They may be right, but the math involved from getting from A to B only comes later, sometimes too late after animals are already bought. If its your dream career, then set that as your goal, and educate yourself. If you plan to attend college, maybe major in biology with a minor in business (or vice versa). Just like any career goal, most are not set based on money.

I live in central Texas too, and keep redfoots. I started with 1 sulcata, and 2 redfoot hatchlings 14 years ago. It wasn't until 3 years ago that I decided to add to the group. I chose to focus more on redfoots since they stay much smaller. I also preferred their colorings, and environment to landscape. Sulcatas are more adapted to our climate, but grow to be much larger, requiring lots of room and food. They also seem less communal and more destructive.


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## Tom (Nov 22, 2015)

jaizei said:


> I think it's substantially less complicated than you do. Do the breeders in your example operate as a business (behavior wise), i.e. are they trying to make a profit? Are they using a dba or are they incorporated? Do they have a storefront/website? Do they sell other products (lamps, food, etc)? Are they writing off expenses, and how?
> 
> How much money someone makes selling tortoises vs their 'real' job has nothing to do with whether something is considered a business or not. You're supposed to pay tax on the income regardless of it being from a hobby or a business, so it makes much more sense to be a business than a hobbyist. If they're regularly making a profit, then there's little to no reason to say they're a hobbyist and not a business. Getting around that 4" rule is just about it. It's not any different than all those websites that have that silly 'turtles under 4 inches sold only for educational or research purposes' disclaimer.



Well I don't see how my thoughts on the matter are any more complicated than yours but…

I simply listed one way of looking at it, and you listed another. As I stated in sentence number one and two of my reply: "This is a very tricky question, and its open to interpretation by each and every enforcement officer and the courts too, should it get that far.

Generally speaking, any definition will have egregious examples that refute it."

This includes your example too.

In my extensive dealings with the people who our government has charged with enforcing these policies, rules, and laws, common sense is often not a factor. Reason, logic, and any sort of rational consideration about what the intent of these laws are is often the furthest thing from their mind.

Your explanation makes sense, but is also refutable and arguable. I think my one hypothetical example makes sense too. How the authority figure standing in front of a person who has sold some hatchlings interprets the rules might be entirely different than how any of us views the issues. This has been demonstrated many times over the years. To say this whole subject is a "gray area" would be an understatement.


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## RayRay (Nov 22, 2015)

If at a future time when I have my own place say I have several Sudanese Mali and Senegal and ivory sulcatas and I let them breed and sell the hatchlings to people who dont have that type of sulcata would that be considered just a hobbyist selling to fellow hobbyist?


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## jaizei (Nov 22, 2015)

RayRay said:


> If at a future time when I have my own place say I have several Sudanese Mali and Senegal and ivory sulcatas and I let them breed and sell the hatchlings to people who dont have that type of sulcata would that be considered just a hobbyist selling to fellow hobbyist?



It depends on whether you are a hobbyist or if you are trying to run a business. That is something that depends on you. Generally speaking, if you are able to do something and make money, it's better to be a business because you can then take advantage of tax deductions, etc. The main reason to say you're a hobbyist would be to try to get around the 4" rule.


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## RayRay (Nov 22, 2015)

jaizei said:


> It depends on whether you are a hobbyist or if you are trying to run a business. That is something that depends on you. Generally speaking, if you are able to do something and make money, it's better to be a business because you can then take advantage of tax deductions, etc. The main reason to say you're a hobbyist would be to try to get around the 4" rule.




Ah ok.


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## dmmj (Nov 22, 2015)

also remember the four inch rule is not enforced very often


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## RayRay (Nov 22, 2015)

dmmj said:


> also remember the four inch rule is not enforced very often



I know why they did the rule but its not a very sane law lol


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## dmmj (Nov 22, 2015)

well even the reasons they state why they made it are stupid


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## Team Gomberg (Nov 22, 2015)

Keep in mind, being a breeder isn't just as easy as throwing males and females together and tah-dah, you have babies to sell. 

I wanted to breed Russians, too. I acquired 1 male and 3 females. Since they were from the same source, I didn't need to quarantine. They lived outside (when I lived in SoCal) in a well planted enclosure that was 20' x 6'. I personally couldn't handle the tortoise "rape". The male was very rough. 2 females stopped eating and wouldn't come out of hiding, leaving the third female to take the beating. 
I separated the male into a 17'x8' bachelor pad. Then the 3 females were having dominance issues in the 20x6!
I could have made additional enclosures, separated everyone and kept trying but I didn't want to cut into my leopard tortoise space. I figured Russian breeding just wasn't for me and that's ok.
It worked out that their previous owner took them back.


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## dmmj (Nov 22, 2015)

Team Gomberg said:


> Keep in mind, being a breeder isn't just as easy as throwing males and females together and tah-dah, you have babies to sell.
> 
> I wanted to breed Russians, too. I acquired 1 male and 3 females. Since they were from the same source, I didn't need to quarantine. They lived outside (when I lived in SoCal) in a well planted enclosure that was 20' x 6'. I personally couldn't handle the tortoise "rape". The male was very rough. 2 females stopped eating and wouldn't come out of hiding, leaving the third female to take the beating.
> I separated the male into a 17'x8' bachelor pad. Then the 3 females were having dominance issues in the 20x6!
> ...


some wine and barry white helps


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## Wanda (Nov 24, 2015)

I have two Russian girls that lay eggs which I hatch as a hobby. In my opinion, if you care about the hatchling tortoises then you will never make money to more than break even and cover costs. I am in the process of selling my hatchlings and weeding out the 'buying on a whim' people, those that don't want to learn how to keep them properly and all the rest is time consuming in itself. And then you have to educate all the ones that are ok and want to get it right and need a lot of help doing so. It takes ages and ages ! I would never let my hatchlings go to anyone I didn't think will be a caring and good owner and I don't mind turning people away. I would say turn away a good 70% of people that enquirer. 
That's is not to say that there aren't people that make money and do care (before i offend someone badly  )


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