# Desert Tortoise sleeps too late



## JohnnyB65 (Aug 23, 2014)

My Desert Tortoise doesn’t come out till after noon completely unlike the ones in the wild. I never see wild Desert Tortoises out after 12 and they usually are out well before 7 when it’s not so hot. I know of couple of burrows in the desert that I’ve visited and they usually just sit in the entrance with their back toward the outside where they remain for hours before disappearing inside. On really hot days in the three digits they are deep inside where it’s cool before noon.

He is never out in the morning and on those really hot days he just sits in the entrance for about a ½ hour and will not come out to eat. Sometimes when it gets hot early and temps go up to 112˚F he will not be out at all for days sometimes. 

So what’s with my Tortoise? He has done this forever and I wonder if he’s depressed or if this is common for Tortoises in captivity. I sure wish he would come out in the morning because it would make my life so much easier.


----------



## Yvonne G (Aug 23, 2014)

Does he have any grass to graze on?


----------



## JohnnyB65 (Aug 23, 2014)

Yvonne G said:


> Does he have any grass to graze on?


Yes Yvonne, He has his own little garden of stuff I purchased from special seed supposedly for Desert Tortoise






And he also likes the lawn and on one side I have allowed some weeds to grow that he especially likes.






If he comes out today I’ll try and get a photo of him eating the weeds he likes. I don’t know the name of the vegetation but I have seen it growing out in the desert with the wild Tortoises.

Oh you can see by the shadow that is after 2 PM when the wild ones are in their burrow.


----------



## Yvonne G (Aug 23, 2014)

Well, it sounds like maybe he's on daylight savings time. As long as he's eating, gaining weight and looking healthy, I wouldn't worry about his strange antics.


----------



## Maro2Bear (Aug 23, 2014)

Why would him coming out earlier be better for you? It's HIS schedule! Hahah.  Is he getting in your way, or interfering with outdoor projects? He seems pretty content! At least he's coming out.


----------



## Teodora'sDAD (Aug 23, 2014)

Maro2Bear said:


> Why would him coming out earlier be better for you? It's HIS schedule! Hahah.  Is he getting in your way, or interfering with outdoor projects? He seems pretty content! At least he's coming out.


 I agree, I think he knows his dad will be out and about.. I see he even helps with the lawn mowing!

Honestly though im not sure how social desert tortoises are. maybe somebody else can help you out.


----------



## JohnnyB65 (Aug 23, 2014)

Maro2Bear said:


> Why would him coming out earlier be better for you? It's HIS schedule! Hahah.  Is he getting in your way, or interfering with outdoor projects? He seems pretty content! At least he's coming out.


Oh because he only eats between 2 and 3:30 PM and I can’t leave his food out because the birds will eat the whole thing and it’s kind of expensive bird food. LOL Also any food left out overnight gets eaten by other creatures like racoons or rodents

Someone has to be here between those times to assure he eats which makes it very difficult to get a caretaker to go on any trips. We recently took a trip to Colorado and had my daughter watch the house but she works and could not feed him while he was out and he didn’t have food for a week except for the lawn.


----------



## JohnnyB65 (Aug 23, 2014)

I was just out there trying to coax him out at 11 AM and I noticed that the entrance is pretty dark due to the shade from my neighbors pine trees. The sun doesn’t shine in until well into the afternoon so he maybe basing the time on the sun. I plan on replacing his burrow with a larger one and I guess I could move it to the other side of the property with morning sun, but that might present another whole set of problems.

I chose this spot because of the neighbors Pine Trees. The roots were cracking my block wall and I didn’t want any vegetation growing along this wall to water and attract the roots from causing farther damage. It also kind of helped during winter hibernation by not allowing the sun to warm up the burrow too quickly.






This is the weeds that I mention he liked before. I don't know what it is or if it is good for him, but he will pass up his own store bought food for it.


----------



## JohnnyB65 (Aug 23, 2014)

Teodora'sDAD said:


> ..... I see he even helps with the lawn mowing!....


Yes I try to keep him busy earning his keep.
here I have him testing my new flat free tires and he gave the OK so I didn't have to take them back.


----------



## Yvonne G (Aug 23, 2014)

That weed is fine for him to eat. It grows naturally in the desert and is eaten by desert tortoises.


----------



## JohnnyB65 (Aug 23, 2014)

Teodora'sDAD said:


> ....Honestly though im not sure how social desert tortoises are. maybe somebody else can help you out.


I think he is very social. A few months ago we had a birthday party and he was running around with the kids like he was really enjoying it. I think he was genuinely excited. Unfortunately I didn’t even get a photo of the event, but a video would have been great. I’ll have to ask some of the other people present if they have any photos.

Here he is playing with my grandson and a toy raccoon.











And he likes sunning with the girls.


----------



## Tom (Aug 23, 2014)

The difference in behaviors between yours and the wild ones can probably be accounted for by the differences in the environments. In the desert they can wander for miles, find just the right microclimate on just the right hill, and dig their burrow just the right way, then they can hang out as deep or as shallow as they want. Being underground really evens out the temps and helps them to avoid the extremes that occur above ground where yours lives. Deep underground the temperature averages 70-80, depending on depth, in the summer. It can be 112 above ground but it will be 80, 3-4' down. 20 feet down its likely closer to 70. So a wild tortoise needs to sun at the mouth of the burrow to warm up in the morning. This only takes a short while since they didn't get all that cool over night and then they avoid the heat of midday by staying underground.

Your tortoise is subject to the cold nights and hot days above ground that the wild ones are not. Your tortoise is experiencing wild temperatures swings in its body while the wild ones have created a much more stable environment for themselves. Its great that you have made a nice shelter, but that above ground shelter with the wide open mouth is not protecting your tortoise from temperature extremes. You need to go deeper underground and have a much narrower opening so that the temperatures he experiences will be more like what the wild ones experience.

Here is how I solved the problem for my sulcatas. My outdoor temps are pretty similar to yours year round.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/daisys-new-enclosure.28662/


----------



## JohnnyB65 (Aug 23, 2014)

I’m not so sure about “wild temperature swings” because I have minimum of 12” of dirt on top at the high point of round ceiling due to the pipe. I also have vegetation growing on top with drip irrigation to keep the sun from heating it up during the day. At the moment I have the plants pulled out because I going to dig it all up next week end to bury a 55 gal barrel for a new burrow.

I’m not fond of wood underground because we have a real problem with termites here so that’s why I’m using the barrow. Before I used the concrete blocks I had pressure treated lumber for by planter boxes and within a few years they were falling apart from termites.






During the winter months I cover the entrance with dirt to keep the cold from blowing in and also the critters. The Tortoise simply digs his way out when he’s ready.

I do like the idea of having access threw the top but I read some place to not put vents through the top because of drafts. I can’t remember if it was in the Nevada guidelines or CA but my Tortoise has been doing quite well over the last 8 years.


----------



## JohnnyB65 (Aug 23, 2014)

This is an old photo showing the vegetation within a week after I built it. We had flowers in it the first year and then we went to zucchini and peppers the next couple of years all of which provided a lot of shade during the summer months and the evaporating moisture kept it quite cool inside.


----------



## Lemonade (Aug 23, 2014)

One thing I see might be going on here is the placement of the burrow: As I have let my DTs choose their own sleeping area, they seem to prefer east to south/east facing burrows where the morning sun hits. Then when they first come out, they spend some time just warming up before they go to graze. 

Also, I just added two new tortoises to the one I had already. The new two are on a different time clock from my first. This morning, for example, after a cool night, my original one got up around 9. The other two, not til 11. My first likes to move around the yard grazing, then usually it goes right back to hang out at the burrow. The other two come out, do some grazing, then just stay above ground for a few hours.

The two new ones a darker color--more brown than gray--than my first one. I have been told that it is regional differences. The lighter color tortoise is from the lower desert where the sun is more intense. The darker ones from the higher desert where it's cooler and the darker color soaks up more heat. 

I'm also wondering about the expensive "bird food" lol What food are you putting out? I rarely put food out for mine because I have quite a bit for them to graze on: grape leaves, dandelions, grasses, petunias, etc. I see that you have some natural grazing for your tort. The more you can do that the better because you won't have to worry about all that's involved with putting food out.

I do feed my box turtles and have found that birds were absconding with the food--that is til a feral cat came to live in the yard--yay! I made covers for the food and I'm attaching pictures. When the birds were more of a problem, I hung shade cloth over the covers, which really helped. You will notice that the dishes are in motes, too, to manage ants taking over.








Hope this helps.


----------



## JohnnyB65 (Aug 23, 2014)

Lemonade said:


> One thing I see might be going on here is the placement of the burrow: As I have let my DTs choose their own sleeping area, they seem to prefer east to south/east facing burrows where the morning sun hits. Then when they first come out, they spend some time just warming up before they go to graze.......



He does like the south side of the property for some reason, but that just isn't possible.

OK I'm having some sort of computer problems right now, but this is what 'm feeding him I hope it posts this time

I feed him Zoo Med Natural Tortoise Food topped with Rep-Cal Maintenance Formula Tortoise Food


----------



## JohnnyB65 (Aug 23, 2014)

When I went on my last trip out of town, I covered it with and old gate, but my daughter said that it was full when she got home and empty when she left in the morning. She’s pretty sure the tortoise did not eat it and something else was eating it during the night. He doesn’t like eating his food outside his home for some reason except on occasion.


----------



## Lemonade (Aug 23, 2014)

For the diet, I would try to move toward more natural foods. I'm adding a link to CTTC caresheet. For one thing, the birds won't like it. http://tortoise.org/general/descare.html#adult
The gate you covered with is way too high and open to keep the birds out.

For the burrow placement, I think it does answer your question about why it sleeps so late. It may be a late sleeper naturally, but I'm with you that 12 is pretty late. Can you pull the tort out of the burrow? If so, you could get it up in the morning and put it in a sunny spot to get it started.

It's cool that it wants to play with the kids. Mine are not around anyone else but me, so I haven't been able to observe that.


----------



## JohnnyB65 (Aug 23, 2014)

Thanks for the link Lemonade, 
Well I guess since I’m going to be replacing its burrow anyway, I may look for alternatives on the other side of the yard. I have a little more options now because I use to have fruit trees on the opposite side of the yard, but had to get rid of them because they were attracting rats. I have a very small yard and don’t have a lot of options. The current area was ideal because it was easy to fence off and I originally had the burrow under the above ground fish pond until he got too big. 

Well I’m going to try to find a better place although it will only be for a couple of years until I move to another location after I retire.

I don’t know about pulling it out because I cannot see inside its burrow and I’d be afraid of hurting it.


----------



## Lemonade (Aug 23, 2014)

Seems like I have done a lot of tweaking to my turt/tort yards, as they keep teaching me about their preferences. Hang in there. Our torts are very forgiving. They have their preferences but will make do with what we give them. They are awesome.


----------



## ascott (Aug 25, 2014)

The physical placement of the burrow itself should be one that is in a non flood zone/area...and the important thing that I have found is that the torts here that have natural dug burrows all have openings/the mouth of the burrow facing NorthEast...each of the three have here some variation of the NE ....two are certainly pointed more North but all three are North East....I am in Apple Valley so that positioning may vary a bit where you are....and if the entrance is shaded for the am heat up time...then the tort is missing the charge from the sun...so by the time he is led out by natural pull to function for the day....the sun is likely then too hot....so he just stays...they are a patient sort....but this can go on for too long and could possibly create an undesirable situation for the torts mental well being....just sharing what comes to mind...

Haus is the one here that has the most North facing one and he is always the last one up and about and the location he selected was when the temps were over 110 here for a couple of weeks...the location is near the house and has am shading and evening shading, this is a horrible location for winter as the roof line is near and will flood the hole, which will not be a prob since they brumate indoors....the Old Man has his pointing more East with a touch North...he is up first and moves in and out of the burrow the most....likely because the sun shines into the burrow the longest and most direct in the am, he also has an above ground hide that has the opening facing completely south, he uses the hide during the day before it gets crazy hot...then retreats to his burrow after high noon has passed ...Ghamara has his burrow North with an ever so slight east pointing....this is the tort that most recently was ripped from the desert, by a stupid broad....and he is the one that still displays the most wild behaviors....so I think he is onto something (lol)....the last guy here just does not have a desire to burrow....but he is the most tenacious, outgoing, aggressive and very outwardly male tortoise....so go figure....

Next year in the spring I will be setting a new space for Haus out on a higher part of the property....and it will be a smaller space but a more desirable spot for watering and letting the natural desert vegetation come up....so will see where then he selects to dig a new burrow...there he will not have any structures to have to contend with for unnatural water movement....

Good luck and let us know what comes of your placement....I also believe that if you use the big blue barrels as the dome for the burrow ....your tortoise will enjoy it...I use them here and they do appear much more comfortable than when I had done the square type structures...I have a plan next spring to take the two halves of the barrels and join them together to make a crazy long one....then kinda sink that entire piece down into the earth a bit...so the dome is not so prominent ...they seem to really enjoy that low down snugged in fit....well, good luck and enjoy...also, keep some of that dirt to do a gradual burm/slope to the entrance...that will make a difference as to how much water can be captured and funneled down into the hide...oh, and keep in mind of where you place the hide at...some will begin to dig down below that and so you don't want to have to go through all of the work and the tort become use to his home only to have to dig it up and back fill it in....


----------

