# Tortoise attacked by rat (?)



## HawaiiHermann (Mar 9, 2018)

My Hermann's Tortoise was attacked last night, probably by a rat. Deep bites to his front legs, and a bite on his face near the nose.

This is my first time seeing this exotic vet. Any treatments I should be wary of?


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## Rhea (Mar 9, 2018)

Poor tort! New to tortoises so I don’t know the answer but I hope everything is ok. Little guys probably in pain. Best of luck.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 9, 2018)

Oh my. That is so sad. The poor tortoise is defenseless against that type of attack. Your vet will clean up the raw spots and give the tortoise an antibiotic. I see no reason why he would give the tortoise a vitamin a,d,e injection, but if that's what he wants to do, respectfully decline it. No Vitamin A injection!


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## wellington (Mar 9, 2018)

Poor thing. Keep it clean until healed. Of course try to change things so it can't happen again.
Good luck.


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## HawaiiHermann (Mar 9, 2018)

As Yvonne predicted, the vet cleaned the wounds and gave him an antibiotic injection, which we'll repeat every 3 days until healed. He's resting in a warm indoor hospital tank. Is there an ideal body temp for healing? I placed him near the lamp to warm up but want to make sure he doesn't overheat if he's not feeling well enough to move.

I can't believe a rat got in. (It's definitely a rat, the attack was caught on security camera.) His entire enclosure is covered in plastic chicken netting from 3 feet under the substrate and completely over the ceiling. Guess it's time for a locking night box and some fine mesh metal chicken wire when he's well enough to go back outside.


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## TammyJ (Mar 9, 2018)

So sorry this happened. Keep him inside away from the rats! And declare war on them!


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## Taylor T. (Mar 9, 2018)

Maybe put a few baited rat traps inside little plastic boxes with holes in them around the outside of his enclosure? That might get rid of any rats that are thinking about getting into the enclosure.

Really sad that this happened. Can he walk? For healing temperature, I would make it a little warmer than usual, but not by too much


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## HawaiiHermann (Mar 9, 2018)

Taylor T. said:


> Really sad that this happened. Can he walk? For healing temperature, I would make it a little warmer than usual, but not by too much



He can walk, though it's clear he's in pain. One limb seems more sore than the other. He also lost the end of his tail in the attack.

I feel so bad for him, and for failing him.

Rat control will be difficult because my house backs up against a forest reserve... I'm sure there's an endless supply of them back there.


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## HawaiiHermann (Mar 11, 2018)

At what point should I be concerned with hydration and not eating? It's been 2 days. I tried to give him a soak yesterday (with the vet's ok) but it was obviously causing him more stress and pain in his wounds than it was worth.

He has been pretty lethargic for the last 24 hours. Awake but not moving, resting in the cool side of the bin. Body temp about 72 degrees. Basking area is available at 95 degrees, and the CHE keeps the warm side at about 85-90 degrees overnight.

I have Pedialyte and Critical Care handy. Both are offered in the bin, along with some water-rich favorite foods, but he's not interested.


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## richosullivan (Mar 12, 2018)

HawaiiHermann said:


> At what point should I be concerned with hydration and not eating? It's been 2 days. I tried to give him a soak yesterday (with the vet's ok) but it was obviously causing him more stress and pain in his wounds than it was worth.
> 
> He has been pretty lethargic for the last 24 hours. Awake but not moving, resting in the cool side of the bin. Body temp about 72 degrees. Basking area is available at 95 degrees, and the CHE keeps the warm side at about 85-90 degrees overnight.
> 
> I have Pedialyte and Critical Care handy. Both are offered in the bin, along with some water-rich favorite foods, but he's not interested.



Just went through the same thing - it took just over a month before mine started eating again. We back up to a cemetery, so have rats and racoons - rat burrowed under boards that I sank 4 inches - have traps out now to keep others away from my outside enclosure, and am building a table to put inside for my recovering tort.


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## HawaiiHermann (Mar 13, 2018)

richosullivan said:


> Just went through the same thing - it took just over a month before mine started eating again. We back up to a cemetery, so have rats and racoons - rat burrowed under boards that I sank 4 inches - have traps out now to keep others away from my outside enclosure, and am building a table to put inside for my recovering tort.



Thank you for sharing your experience! Makes me feel a bit better about my guy's progress. What kinds of traps do you have? Do you intend yo keep your recovering tortoise indoors long-term, or will he go back outside eventually?

My tortoise is much perkier today, moving around and basking under the lamp. The vet said he's making good progress -- the wounds are no longer raw. He lost 30 grams of weight in 3 days (on a base weight of about 700 grams), which worries me a bit but the vet is not concerned yet.


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## SteveW (Mar 13, 2018)

I too have a rat tale (sorry) of woe. My torts live in a detached room that houses just them and some storage. One night a rat chewed through a screen and instead of going for the 100 or so pounds of mazuri and dog food, killed a hatching pancake and gnawed on my Mee. I’ll spare you the details of the hand to rat combat that ensued, but things got Lord of the Flies pretty quickly. I have mixed feelings about my descent into darkness but do feel a little better knowing that Vera Rubin (the pancake) was avenged. 
Best wishes for your Hermanns. I suspect that with antibiotics to stave off infection he’ll be on the mind.


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## LoutheRussian (Mar 13, 2018)

I just posted in another thread about a rat attack. I’m in the rodent control business and when it comes to keeping rats out of something you need to be sure you seal up every hole the size of your pinky or larger. Sealing the main entrance and exit may put a stop to things temporarily but they will find another way in if you don’t seal it all. We use 1/4” steel mesh (home depot) together with expanding foam which works well. Put the mesh in the hole and fill with expanding foam. If the rats do chew on it the wire mesh will stop them and the foam give you a good way of being able to tell if they are trying to get in again as little chunks will be all over the ground. Stay away from poisons because sick animals will often seek refuge in your walls and when they die in there they will smell horribly for up to a month. Also poison can cause secondary kill, if a dog or cat for example catch and eat a poisoned rat the dog or cat will often get sick and possibly die as well. The classic wooden Victor snap trap with peanut butter on it works best.


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## richosullivan (Mar 14, 2018)

HawaiiHermann said:


> Thank you for sharing your experience! Makes me feel a bit better about my guy's progress. What kinds of traps do you have? Do you intend yo keep your recovering tortoise indoors long-term, or will he go back outside eventually?
> 
> My tortoise is much perkier today, moving around and basking under the lamp. The vet said he's making good progress -- the wounds are no longer raw. He lost 30 grams of weight in 3 days (on a base weight of about 700 grams), which worries me a bit but the vet is not concerned yet.



I am building a "table" for my recovering tortoise, and he'll be in there for the foreseeable future. Depending on how he does there will determine if he ever makes it back outside long term. He seems top be doing better, but still not 100% sure he is going to make it, but doing everything we can to try as long as he still seems like he's fighting.


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## HawaiiHermann (Mar 15, 2018)

Another vet visit yesterday, where he got more antibiotics and some fluids. We've had some setbacks -- the wound cleanings (1x day) and ointment applications (2x day) seem to be massively stressing him out now. He (attempts to) run and climb frantically after his treatments, emitting some poop/pee in the process, obviously in a panic. Poor guy. Then he just hides and sleeps all day. Still no interest in food or drink. 

Just trying to keep him feeling safe and secure as best as possible. He's got a cardboard box for a hide, and I've draped a towel 90% over the entrance -- he can still get in and out but that should keep it darker in there. Any other ideas for things I can do to make him feel better?


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## richosullivan (Mar 16, 2018)

HawaiiHermann said:


> Another vet visit yesterday, where he got more antibiotics and some fluids. We've had some setbacks -- the wound cleanings (1x day) and ointment applications (2x day) seem to be massively stressing him out now. He (attempts to) run and climb frantically after his treatments, emitting some poop/pee in the process, obviously in a panic. Poor guy. Then he just hides and sleeps all day. Still no interest in food or drink.
> 
> Just trying to keep him feeling safe and secure as best as possible. He's got a cardboard box for a hide, and I've draped a towel 90% over the entrance -- he can still get in and out but that should keep it darker in there. Any other ideas for things I can do to make him feel better?



We try to do a 30 minute soak before each treatment, then put him directly into his hide when we placed him back in his temp. enclosure to try and reduce the stress. Here are some photos/Xrays.


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## TammyJ (Mar 16, 2018)

richosullivan said:


> We try to do a 30 minute soak before each treatment, then put him directly into his hide when we placed him back in his temp. enclosure to try and reduce the stress. Here are some photos/Xrays.
> 
> View attachment 233166
> View attachment 233167
> View attachment 233168


I think the soaks are very important even if he does not like them.
Mix some pedialyte into the warm water and you should use a plastic tub with a fitted top that has a few holes bored in it for air. The tortoise should fit into the tub with very little space for moving around and with the top coming within one inch of his carapace. He will have no choice but to stay in the soak and get the full benefit of it, and it will help to keep him from dehydrating.


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## HawaiiHermann (Mar 16, 2018)

richosullivan said:


> We try to do a 30 minute soak before each treatment, then put him directly into his hide when we placed him back in his temp. enclosure to try and reduce the stress. Here are some photos/Xrays.



Aww, what a cute little guy! And what sad injuries. Poor guy.  How long ago did it happen?

I'll ask the vet tomorrow about soaking -- he seemed to have some concerns about soaking while the wounds were healing, and I'm concerned about the balance between the healing benefits of being well-hydrated and the immune suppression of being under massive stress. He did receive 6 ml of fluid during Wednesday's visit and his eyes aren't looking so sunken now.

Pic in my "operating room" (a can of beans in a baking dish) this morning before wound cleaning:


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## richosullivan (Mar 19, 2018)

HawaiiHermann said:


> Aww, what a cute little guy! And what sad injuries. Poor guy.  How long ago did it happen?
> 
> I'll ask the vet tomorrow about soaking -- he seemed to have some concerns about soaking while the wounds were healing, and I'm concerned about the balance between the healing benefits of being well-hydrated and the immune suppression of being under massive stress. He did receive 6 ml of fluid during Wednesday's visit and his eyes aren't looking so sunken now.
> 
> ...



It happened back in January on the 3rd. My wife is a Vet, but she insisted we take him to a Vet that she knows that specializes in wildlife/exotics, and he said the soaks are essential, especially with taking medication/antibiotics to ensure he is hydrated - don't want to create kidney or liver issues - would be worth asking.


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## HawaiiHermann (Mar 19, 2018)

richosullivan said:


> It happened back in January on the 3rd. My wife is a Vet, but she insisted we take him to a Vet that she knows that specializes in wildlife/exotics, and he said the soaks are essential, especially with taking medication/antibiotics to ensure he is hydrated - don't want to create kidney or liver issues - would be worth asking.



Thanks! The vet was very busy and only had time to give the tortoise the next antibiotic shot and some fluids. I gave him a soak afterwards (mostly water with some pedialyte) and it went _very_ well. No more panic, and he drank deeply. I'll continue with 2 x daily soaks. Wish I'd tried it again sooner!

Did you give electrolytes or baby food in your soaks, or just water? Not sure of the trade off between getting some calories in him (still not eating) vs. the risk of getting food and stuff in his wounds.


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## richosullivan (Mar 20, 2018)

HawaiiHermann said:


> Thanks! The vet was very busy and only had time to give the tortoise the next antibiotic shot and some fluids. I gave him a soak afterwards (mostly water with some pedialyte) and it went _very_ well. No more panic, and he drank deeply. I'll continue with 2 x daily soaks. Wish I'd tried it again sooner!
> 
> Did you give electrolytes or baby food in your soaks, or just water? Not sure of the trade off between getting some calories in him (still not eating) vs. the risk of getting food and stuff in his wounds.



We just used plain filtered water for the soaks. We found that sweet potato was what got him eating again - cooked it, cooled it and then put it in, and he went for it pretty quickly.


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## HawaiiHermann (Mar 21, 2018)

Vet says the tortoise is doing very good. He gained 80 grams (!!) from the soaks since the last visit 3 days ago. The cuts show no signs of infection, so we are done with the antibiotic shots for now, but I'll continue applying silvadene until the wounds are fully healed. He does have some clicking/wheezing with his breathing, but there's no bubbles, so it's hard to tell if it is the start of something respiratory or just a consequence of the injury to his nostril area. Time will tell, and he will be closely monitored. 

Still no eating, which isn't terribly surprising. I wonder how long, on average, it takes for a tort to regain its appetite after finishing antibiotics?


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## HawaiiHermann (Mar 21, 2018)

This is the labored breathing I was mentioning. Anything to be worried about?


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## LoutheRussian (Mar 23, 2018)

I could be completely wrong as your tort has been injured recently but that doesn’t sound good to me. Has the vet seen or heard this? If not I would consider bringing it to their attention sooner than later. That way if it is a concern it can be treated right away and if not then you sleep a little easier.


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## Pearly (Mar 25, 2018)

HawaiiHermann said:


> This is the labored breathing I was mentioning. Anything to be worried about?



I just got back on the Forum after a long hiatus, and saw your video clip. I sure hope you have got this taken care of, it does look like your tort is putting an effort into taking each breath and that clicking sound if it hasn’t cleared up is definitely something I’d be getting checked for my torts. Your tort is already on antibiotic which may or may not cover him. If not, the vet may need to change it. But I hope that this was just an episode and all done and over with. As for temps, I’d keep the hospital tank around the 85F’s and VERY humid (over 90%), also keep the bath water between 95 and 105F. I keep my temp gun next to the tub I bathe mine and have been doing this for couple yrs now. We laugh that our torts get their nightly spa bcs as soon as we put them in that warm water they stretch out their legs and dip their chins, sticking above water level only from their nostrils up. Sending you and your tort thoughts of wellbeing and healing[emoji217][emoji256]


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## HawaiiHermann (Mar 26, 2018)

That video above was right after the last dose of antibiotic injections. It got a bit better for a few days, but was more pronounced yesterday, so the vet has prescribed some antibiotic nasal drops. Got some pretty impressive tortoise boogers yesterday.

We've been having a hot and humid spell here, which helps! I'm going to purchase a higher wattage CHE this evening to keep it a bit warmer overnight.

Still not eating, but the soaks have been going well. He is back up to his pre-attack weight even though he hasn't eaten in 17 days. He has at least been sniffing the food on offer, which seems like a positive sign.


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## HawaiiHermann (Mar 30, 2018)

Today he finally ate! 3 full weeks after the attack, and about 10 days after the last antibiotic injection. I made him a fancy plate of strawberry, papaya, and tomato... but it was the Mazuri that did the trick. 

There has been a little improvement of the respiratory symptoms, but he's still breathing through his mouth sometimes. I've got a follow up appointment at the vet on Monday just to make sure he is healing ok. Scales have been peeling off his limbs and rear, revealing cream-colored flesh underneath. It's not oozing, smelly, or red.


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## MrMarg&me (Mar 30, 2018)

Good to know your tort is still healing and showing improvement. My old turtle Marg is missing a foot, nails on other foot are deformed, tail is nicked, scutes are scraped off on front and bottom edge of carapace and there is a notch/puncture apparent on plastron. These are all very old healed wounds. If you hold him as a dog would a rawhide chew it is obvious that a dog did just that. I sometimes wonder if a kind human helped him when he was suffering when the injuries were new. I would like to think a person like you was there for him!


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## HawaiiHermann (Apr 2, 2018)

MissMarg&me said:


> Good to know your tort is still healing and showing improvement. My old turtle Marg is missing a foot, nails on other foot are deformed, tail is nicked, scutes are scraped off on front and bottom edge of carapace and there is a notch/puncture apparent on plastron. These are all very old healed wounds. If you hold him as a dog would a rawhide chew it is obvious that a dog did just that. I sometimes wonder if a kind human helped him when he was suffering when the injuries were new. I would like to think a person like you was there for him!



Yes, when I saw wild Hermann's tortoises in Europe, many of them had very bad shell damage (probably from dogs as well) that had healed up ok. Pretty amazing considering the level of trauma and unsanitary conditions! 

Vet today said that everything is generally healing up great. The peeling scale areas are just fine; the white flesh underneath is new healthy tissue, and the loose bits will eventually flake off. 

The bad thing is his nose.  The scale on the tip that includes the nares is loose and only hanging on by a thread. The vet said it will fall off and not grow back. Poor guy.


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## HawaiiHermann (Apr 2, 2018)

The nostril area fell off. Had anyone had experience with this happening? @richosullivan ? Will it just stay open like this forever?


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## HawaiiHermann (Apr 6, 2018)

New scales are growing in. The nasal hole seems smaller.


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## MrMarg&me (Apr 7, 2018)

I am heartened to learn his nose is healing. Tortoises can endure a lot.


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## Hayes Johnson (Apr 7, 2018)

Poor tortoise! Did the rat get into his tank?


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## HawaiiHermann (Apr 9, 2018)

Hayes Johnson said:


> Poor tortoise! Did the rat get into his tank?



The tortoise was living in an outdoor enclosure 24/7. The rat attacked him one night when he was sleeping. He'll be inside for a while until he's fully healed and I can figure out how to best protect him outside going forward.


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## richosullivan (Apr 9, 2018)

HawaiiHermann said:


> The nostril area fell off. Had anyone had experience with this happening? @richosullivan ? Will it just stay open like this forever?
> View attachment 235011





HawaiiHermann said:


> The nostril area fell off. Had anyone had experience with this happening? @richosullivan ? Will it just stay open like this forever?
> View attachment 235011





HawaiiHermann said:


> The nostril area fell off. Had anyone had experience with this happening? @richosullivan ? Will it just stay open like this forever?
> View attachment 235011


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## richosullivan (Apr 9, 2018)

Ours was open for a little while, and eventually grew over with a scab. I was using a dental "pick" to try and keep the nasal passage open, and using one of those baby nasal aspirators to suck any of the bad stuff out. It eventually grew all the may over and the scab fell off. We sterilized that area and are kind of waiting to see how it will grow back. Because of it being clogged, he obviously has to mouth breath all the time so the Vet said we would notice what appeared to be more labored breathing. we have been using nasal drops on his nose area, and he is on antibiotics (which will put us at 4 months total on antibiotics). After that the Vet wants to drop the antibiotics and see him weekly to see how he is progressing.


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## HawaiiHermann (Apr 12, 2018)

@richosullivan Wow, what a long journey for your little one! Best wishes for him from me and my tortoise.

Lots of scabs peeling off these days. The ones on his front legs look like they will come off soon. Still eating like a pig, though I'm a little concerned that he's not moving around too much in his bin... mostly just sits in his hide. Normally he's very active in the bin. I'm assuming it's just uncomfortable to move around with all the healing wounds.

The nose is still open. Every few days he seems a little congested in there, and he seems to be learning that q-tip = nasal relief, and will hold still for a booger cleaning. The things we do for our tortoises!


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## HawaiiHermann (Apr 13, 2018)

A large scab came off today. Most of the flesh underneath is white/pink and even, but there's a pea-sized yellowish protrusion. The vet suspects that it might be some old pus, and suggested to gently debride it with a q-tip. Wish me (and the tortoise) luck...


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## Dipa (Apr 13, 2018)

HawaiiHermann said:


> A large scab came off today. Most of the flesh underneath is white/pink and even, but there's a pea-sized yellowish protrusion. The vet suspects that it might be some old pus, and suggested to gently debride it with a q-tip. Wish me (and the tortoise) luck...
> 
> View attachment 235963


Good luck
May he recover speedily and beautifully


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## HawaiiHermann (Apr 16, 2018)

The protrusion didn't swab off cleanly, though now it's a smaller red spot. For now, I'm just keeping it clean and hydrated with antibiotic ointment.

Today was the first day he's really been acting like his old self. In other words, he walked through his food repeatedly and knocked over the baby monitor. The large scabs on his feet have fallen off. That just leaves large scabs on one arm and the tail.


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## katieandiggy (Apr 16, 2018)

So sad to read this story. Never underestimate rats! Both of my parents 40+ year old Greeks were killed while in hibernation by rats. This was many years ago but it’s always stayed with me. 
Best of Luck, glad your tort is almost back to normal.


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## richosullivan (Apr 18, 2018)

HawaiiHermann said:


> A large scab came off today. Most of the flesh underneath is white/pink and even, but there's a pea-sized yellowish protrusion. The vet suspects that it might be some old pus, and suggested to gently debride it with a q-tip. Wish me (and the tortoise) luck...
> 
> View attachment 235963



Exactly what mine looked like on both front limbs. A lot of sloughing took place for the 2 to 3 weeks after the whitish skin was visible.


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## vladimir (Apr 18, 2018)

HawaiiHermann said:


> The protrusion didn't swab off cleanly, though now it's a smaller red spot. For now, I'm just keeping it clean and hydrated with antibiotic ointment.
> 
> Today was the first day he's really been acting like his old self. In other words, he walked through his food repeatedly and knocked over the baby monitor. The large scabs on his feet have fallen off. That just leaves large scabs on one arm and the tail.



Thanks for the updates - it's really inspiring to see how a tort can recover from such trauma. 

Wishing the best to your little one. I hope he's 100% his old self in no time.


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## Erik Elvis (Apr 18, 2018)

I’m glad he’s doing better. Might be time for a couple cats! I’m not really a cat person but they do take care of the mice in the house.


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## HawaiiHermann (Apr 18, 2018)

richosullivan said:


> Exactly what mine looked like on both front limbs. A lot of sloughing took place for the 2 to 3 weeks after the whitish skin was visible.



Yeah, it's kinda freaky looking! I couldn't find many pics of healing tortoises so it was a little worrying at first. 




Erik Elvis said:


> I’m glad he’s doing better. Might be time for a couple cats! I’m not really a cat person but they do take care of the mice in the house.



There are 2 or 3 cats that roam around my property -- not sure if they are neighborhood cats or feral. They're obviously slacking though! Wish there was a creature I could have caged up with the tortoise to protect that spot...


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## HawaiiHermann (May 9, 2018)

It's been a while since I updated. Today marks 2 months since the attack. The last scab (on the tail) fell off in the bath today. The nasal area is still open and likely will be permanently... oh well. New scales have grown in on many of the injured parts, and it seems like the rest will fill in with time. He's still inside for now, though he gets supervised daytime visits to his outdoor enclosure.


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## daniellenc (May 9, 2018)

He looks so awesome glad he’s healing and healthy!!


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## Dipa (May 9, 2018)

He looks healthy and beautiful..
May he recover fast...


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## JLM (May 11, 2018)

Just seeing this...so glad your tort is on the mend! I had a rat in my outdoor enclosure last week. I was scrolling through nest cam footage and saw the glowing eyes. Then reviewed all the video in my 10 day history. He came every night between 8:30-10:30! Luckily my tort was in her night box by then. First night with the trap and we go to him. Watching footage every night since and all seems clear. So scary this could have been Ruby


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## Beasty_Artemis (May 11, 2018)

Wow! I just read your story too!
Absolutely amazing how much your tort was able to go through! Poor baby. He has lived a full life, and his scars add character. He is probably so happy after you were so kind to save his life like that!


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## HawaiiHermann (Jul 24, 2018)

It's been a while since I updated. Here's my guy now. He's back outside during the day but comes in at night. The flesh is healed over and new scales are growing in, though he's still missing several fingernails, part of his tail, and the nostril area.


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## Diamond (Jul 24, 2018)

Wow, looks great. What good care he had. So glad he had a happy outcome.


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