# Pyramiding Debate Twixt EJ and AH



## Balboa (Dec 30, 2010)

I've been trying to sift through Ed Pirog's thousands of cryptic posts here and elsewhere to get a grip on his take on pyramiding.

I came across this thread in which Ed (EJ) debates with Andy Highfield (AH).

It is somewhat dated, so I hope it has not been brought up before. I have some observations to make when I'm finally done digesting it.

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/shelled-turtles-tortoise/106535-pyramiding-misinformation.html


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## Tom (Dec 30, 2010)

Okay I got to page three and its getting late. Time for bed. Great link Balboa. I look forward to discussing this more when some of us have had a chance to read through the whole thing.


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## Balboa (Dec 31, 2010)

Where to start....

First off, in my current place of "apprentice" tortoise keeping, there are 3 "Masters" or "Gurus". Three folks who seem to hold the greatest knowledge of tortoises, and have the greatest influence on husbandry practices across the community. Listed in order of "power" but not necessarily right or wrong or knowledge they are:

1. Andy Highfield
2. Ed Pirog
3. Danny (yes, EgyptianDan.... though I don't know his last name as the others, he's like the quiet, underground master, his influence is pervasive, he is everywhere, quietly helping tortoise keepers world wide with little tid-bits of knowledge)

The trouble with Andy seems to be an unwillingness to progress. He is lord and master to an institution of power and knowledge, he has known and acknowledged many important factors that greatly influence tortoise health, yet maintains the status quo, as there is not yet proof, and is unwilling to change until such proof is found.

Ed seems to be ruled by his instincts. He "knows" how to do it, without knowing "why" and as such cannot "prove" anything. He acknowledges often that his viewpoints are all theory, and could be wrong, take it as it is. For whatever reason he hates to repeat himself, and once a question is answered it is up to the researcher to find it. Trouble is the man is a prolific poster on many boards... trying to find the one cryptic, relevant post can be frustrating.

Danny is also cryptic. Seems to me he likes to tease us with a tidbit of the answer, so we'll do the thinking ourselves. A good teacher that way, but at times it can be very hard to try and interpret what he's really trying to say.

Their Theories on Pyramiding as best I've Gleaned to this Point:

1. Andy- Pyramiding and MBD are linked. Diet and Growth Rates are the primary factors and possibly influenced by environment. Humidity/Hydration can be used to "band aid" poor shell growth due to poor diet.

2. Ed- Pyramiding and MBD are NOT linked. Heat and Humidity/Hydration (Environment) are the primary factors and possibly influenced by diet.

3. Danny- Dehydration leads to organ damage which leads to internal health issues that present as pyramiding. That leads me to assume that Danny views Pyramiding as a form of MBD.

Now who's right?

None have "proof"

What little actual scientific study that does exist points to Ed being right. Andy disputes the credibility of this evidence, yet after years of research can present no "counter-evidence".

As the above linked thread held an actual debate between Ed and Andy it was an incredible find for me. Too bad Danny hadn't contributed.

At this time my understanding is that none of these three advocates "high" humidity. They all advocate "some" humidity and humid hides.

I'm fairly certain all three do however recognize the "Risk" involved with heat lamps, and the negative effect they can have on tortoise health, and may be partially responsible for pyramiding. As some of you know this has been an area of concern and research for Tom and I for a while now. It is fairly clear to me that although Andy is aware of this risk, he does not adequately address this issue in his cares suggestions.

What does Balboa take from all this research?
I'm currently still researching thermal differences between pyramided and smooth shells. If that turns out to have any import, that will likely affect my viewpoints.

The work of others and what evidence I've seen leads me to believe Ed is right, that environment plays the most crucial role in pyramiding. As much as I'd liek to side with Danny, it simply does not "make sense" to me that internal issues would have such a profound effect on carapace formation that is clearly focused around the most external components of a tortoise, the scutes. Andy has gone on greatly about how easy it is for scutes to become over dry, growth areas between scutes to get damaged by dehydration, etc.. As much as I am a big picture guy, what else do you need? Over 90% of captive torts are kept in overly dry, overly cool environments , where they spend a majority of time under heat lamps. Add to this the fact that scutes receive little wear in captivity, and thus become thicker, and thus even more rigid and inflexible and the problem is compounded. Once again that is an environmental failure.

Why then a link between pyramiding and MBD that Andy CAN statistically support (but not prove)?

A pyramided tortoise from being overly dry will also likely be a dehydrated tortoise. This can very well lead to the kind of internal damage that Danny is talking about, which can lead to MBD.

A pyramided tortoise requires greater quantities of calcium, phosphorous and D3 to build those pyramids. In their dehydrated and damaged state it can be difficult to process the necessary materials.

The high calcium, high oxalate diet (I've found several posts by Ed warning about this) suggested by most caresheets cannot be processed safely by dehydrated torts leading to internal stones, blockages, renal failures, whatever.

Inadequate light balance has a keen effect on behavior (Andy alluded to this as well in the thread) and is unfortunatly not yet well understood. Cool temps and the wrong light tell a tortoise to brumate. This can have a great impact on how and what they eat as well as activity levels which effect overall health.

Are the answers there? I think so, though it may not be proven exactly WHAT is key.

1. EMULATE THE ENVIRONMENT. The ACTUAL environment as experienced by the tort in the wild. Andy and Ed have both gone on and on about that, but both have failings admitted and not in how they accomplish this. Is it "ideal or adequate" is something expressed by Ed.

this means correct temps, humidity, light fall (spectrum and brightness), and physical constituents (they need rocks and logs and whatever kind of obstacles to wear their shells on, just like in nature)

you CANNOT heat air and maintain humidity levels without adding more water vapor, and this is crucial to understand. When you heat your 40 degree outside air to 60 in your home the humidity drops by at least half, then increase that to 80 in your table and you have 1/4, take it to 100 under that heat lamp 1/8. 

water vapor rises. its lighter than air.

I believe its this lack of understanding of the physical nature of water in air that leads to so many problems, pyramiding, stones, etc.

2. Feed them as well balanced a diet as you can. I'm starting to think EJ (and others) may have a very good point about Mazuri. We cannot provide a natural diet, so how can we ensure that our selection of weeds and greens is correct? I'm thinking the smart course is some of both. As wild torts can have such a huge variablility of diet and still thrive (and humans too for that matter) I start to suspect that diet matters little, as long as it is not completely devoid of essential nutrients. That is why I'd rather feed more than less. Its easier to "pee away" or run off a little excess than try to make due on too little.

- IE, say the small feedings given a tort to "slow growth" contain enough of A but not enough of B to promote growth, the growth may continue but simply be B defficient. An excess of B on the otherhand "may" be sloughed off and healthy growth ensue. I already know many of you take the other viewpoint.

3. We may need to use an abrasive scrub on our tortoises. I have seen many times mentioned how thickening of the scutes may be a problem, but never a suggestion on how to deal with it. Perhaps a non-toxic paste could be made of some ingredients with a bit of pumice or sand in it, or maybe just a little emery cloth now and then.

Well that's not only enough but probably too much for now. I'm tired.

A Further Note on Danny's Take (as best I understand it at this point)

Quoted from my thread on Pyramiding as an Environmental Response

"The individual bones of the carapace can't pyramid as the seams of the bones don't follow the seams of the scutes (the scutes and the bones together are what make the carapace so ridgid). The scutes overlap most bone seams and any that don't (bone seams I'm talking here) run perpendicular to a scute seam. So to still be able to live, the bone (parts of different bones or one bone and parts of others) covered by a scute pyramid. This keeps the integrity of the carapace intact and lets the tortoise keep on living despite what has happened to the carapace."

I hate to say it, but from what I gather here Danny has a flawed image of the anatomy of a pyramided tortoise (and Danny please do correct me if I'm understanding you wrong). You seem to be stating here that the bone does not pyramid, just the scutes.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-End-Of-Pyramiding?page=20

If we look at Mark's Pyramided Carapace the bones are clearly pyramided. Have you found evidence of pyramids formed entirely of keratin, or am I just totally missing the point?

I include Danny's take here (even though it might be OT per title) as I do consider Danny one of the most knowledgable there is, thus pertinent to the discussion and would love to pick his brain on everything I can.

At some points, (I can't recall if it was in the original topic thread or not) EJ has commented on a possibility that pyramids are formed as the scute locks the bone from growing correctly and it pushes "out" on the scute. Possibly he feels the dehydrated/damaged/whatever scute or scute margin is no longer able to grow/slide correctly due to lack of hydration.


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## Madkins007 (Dec 31, 2010)

I liked the thread- thanks for posting it Balboa! I was interested in what to me was as much a matter of differing philosophy than anything else. EJ states he is a mechanic. He wants to attack problem A with procedure B and be done with it. Andy comes across as more of the engineer- he wants to know why problem A is arising so it can be dealt with at a more fundamental level- what can be re-engineered so it is not an issue any longer. 

Andy wants data, Ed wants results. Neither has what some people would consider substantive proof.. Eventually, the thread sputters away into other issues and gets less interesting to me.

I have my own theories about pyramiding, but I lack the depth of experience or scientific training to make it much more than an idea in my mind. However, I must say I agree with Andy that the Fife and Weisner studies have a weakness in that they do not address structural or health issues AT ALL other than the smoothness of the outer layers of the shell. IF there is indeed poor bone density in every case of pyramiding, then that would seem to be the real problem- with the pyramids themselves being just one symptom. Does humidity address the bone issue, or just the visible symptom? 

I loved how, around about page 11 or so, Andy made comments about the benefits of UVA in the pineal gland, etc. I was feeling pretty lonely saying that sort of thing without anyone else 'bigger' on the same page.


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## Balboa (Dec 31, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> I liked the thread- thanks for posting it Balboa! I was interested in what to me was as much a matter of differing philosophy than anything else. EJ states he is a mechanic. He wants to attack problem A with procedure B and be done with it. Andy comes across as more of the engineer- he wants to know why problem A is arising so it can be dealt with at a more fundamental level- what can be re-engineered so it is not an issue any longer.
> 
> Andy wants data, Ed wants results. Neither has what some people would consider substantive proof.. Eventually, the thread sputters away into other issues and gets less interesting to me.
> 
> ...



Right with you on the UVA. In all honesty I think that is a largely underestimated factor in overall tortoise health. "Laymen" have a very simplistic concept of light, which is fine for the average person to just get by and do things, but does not allow them to grasp the concepts that their torts may need more than they are providing.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 31, 2010)

You really do have to add food to the equation. It may not normally effect how a shell grows, but if you look at the recent post showing Laura's rescued sulcatas that were fed cat food you will see some pretty bad-looking shell growth.


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## Balboa (Dec 31, 2010)

emysemys said:


> You really do have to add food to the equation. It may not normally effect how a shell grows, but if you look at the recent post showing Laura's rescued sulcatas that were fed cat food you will see some pretty bad-looking shell growth.



I don't want to pick on you Yvonne as you have to be one of the most sincere, caring, helpful people around , but this is a good example of how things can get confused on the subject.

I went back to look over Lauras threads to find out what you were talking about. Unless I missed some critical information there, yes she has some badly deformed sullies who were fed cat-food. How else were they kept? We know nothing, but I suspect as they lived on cat food, their other cares were equally lacking. What made the huge difference? Most folks will latch on to the one tidbit given, the cat food and think that made the difference.

If EJ is correct i suspect you can get away with feeding a sullie cat food. The Mazuri his critters live on exclusively is basically just cat food with a slightly different nutritional balance.

and oops, you are absolutely correct, I don't think anyone is ready to completely right off food at this point, some just lower its importance "on the scale".


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## onarock (Dec 31, 2010)

Balboa, that was great reading. Informative and entertaining. Its funny how, in my opinion, Andy doesnt exactly shoot down EJ's theory, its just that he wants scientific proof, wich EJ cant provide and round and round they go. I agree with madkins statement about smooth shells. There seems to be quite a bit of promotion of certain ways to raise tortoises, but without solid scientific proof how do we know we are doing right by our shelled companions. The methods people are now using to help promote smooth shell growth might be having adverse affects on the animals in other ways. Some might call it cheating. Over compinsating one aspect to make up for another. I'm with Danny on this one. We have to look at all aspects of tortoise husbandry as a whole in regards to pyramiding.


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## Tom (Jan 1, 2011)

So many points to make. Where to begin? A lot of this has been discussed here in the past, but we have a lot of new members, so it bears repeating.

1. ITS NOT DIET!!! For the last twenty years I've raised dozens of hatchlings of several species. All of them were fed the "magic" diet of the day, that according to the "experts" would prevent them from pyramiding. None of it worked. Ever. Not once. Not even a little. Not for any species. The "feed less and grow them slow" routine produces stunted, small, pyramided torts, IF they are not raised with moisture and humidity. Two cases: A friend in Florida was given a small slightly pyramided sulcata. He kept it in his back yard with no heat or shelter. He dug his own burrow for shelter. It grazed on whatever weeds and grass grew AND he would walk over to the back door and eat all the cats dry food daily. At 8 years old he was totally smooth and around 80-100 pounds. His internal organs might be in bad shape, but he looked great on the outside. Case two: An adult sulcata tort raised in a square, wooden, open topped box, under an outdoor shelter, near New Orleans. No heat and fed mostly handfuls of low quality dog food. Very smooth, but probably not very healthy. Contrast these two examples with all of mine that were fed the "correct" diet of the day, but raised here in the CA desert. The Austrian study also proves this. Now, years later, I'm feeding the same foods in the same quantities that I always have (with the exception of my three current adult sulcatas, which were fed less) and all 42 of my recently raised hatchlings are all growing smooth. What's the difference, you ask? Humidity, moisture and hydration.

2. Its not heat. The smoothest "desert" species of torts you'll ever see are raised outdoors in AZ, and live in self-dug burrows with no heat. They more or less "hibernate" over the cold periods of winter. Look at RV. Perfect example. She is super healthy and just as gorgeous as they come. It get just as cold in AZ as it does here, although not as often or for as long as it does here. I've seen other smooth torts raised with improper (not enough heat, by my estimation) heat. They were all in humid areas or had some sort of humidity.

3. Dehydration. I think it has a lot to do with "hatchling failure syndrome", but it just doesn't make any logical sense that it CAUSES pyramiding. I just can't make the leap from damaged kidneys and liver tissue to unnatural, symmetrical, protruding bone structures on the back. If the damaged organs somehow interfere with or hamper calcium assimilation, wouldn't you just get poorly formed or unformed bone, instead of perfectly formed and spaced, symmetrical cones?

4. I know now for sure that pyramiding IS all bone and the thin scute just covers the pyramided bone. You can see this in the pics of the pyramided desert tort that Yvonne posted. You can see this in my living female with the really bad pyramiding where the scute material is flaking off and you can clearly see the bone protruding through at the top of several of her tall pyramided scutes. I recently saw it again on a 10" mildly pyramided sulcata shell. Don't know how it died, but they had the shell sitting there with about half the scutes removed. The pyramided bone was just sitting there plain as day with no scute on top of it. I'll be doing a post on this later. I didn't have my camera, so I'll have to go back. The point is, that as Danny recently mentioned, the growing plates of bone have nothing to do with the pattern of keratinized scutes that we see. The bone plates underneath are totally differently shaped and sized than the overlying scutes and the suture lines do not even remotely line up with the scute edges. Yet the pyramided portion of the bone lines up perfectly with the pattern of scutes that they are born with. We are all familiar with the human skull and the squiggly suture lines that define the individual plates. Well the bone of a tortoises shell is kind of similar. Imagine if you put on a thin hat made of symmetrical rows of pentagonal shapes. The shapes and marginal lines of the shapes have nothing to do with the plates and suture lines of the skull bones underneath. Same thing with a tortoises shell. When you now consider that the pyramided portion of the bone is directly under the center of each scute, and completely symmetrical, evenly spaced in a set pattern, and of pretty uniform height, it should be obvious that something pertaining to the scute is CAUSING the bone directly underneath it to grow up and porous, instead of flat and dense.

5. "Emulating the environment". Sounds like a great idea. Problem is we don't know what the "natural" environment of babies is. AND our attempts to emulate it based on educated guesses have failed miserably. For 20+ years.

6. I completely agree with you on all the diet info. We simply cannot provide a diet that mimics a wild diet. We don't even know one plant that most of these torts eat in the wild. They probably eat from dozens of species of plants over the course of a year in the wild. Mazuri is cheap and easy insurance, even though we all strive to offer a good balance of "natural" foods.

7. The "abrasive scrub" idea is interesting, but like the insectivorous babies idea, I'm not ready to go there just yet.

Well those are some of my thoughts on the matter. Let the debating begin!


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## Neal (Jan 1, 2011)

The EJ vs AH thread was a good read. EJ has a way of posting where even if you agree with him or he agrees with you he will make it seem like heÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s debating you, which is great because it helps prevent groupthink.

Pyramiding is a fun debate because if we take it as a unique problem from anything else we just do not know what causes it or what prevents it with proven assurance. I for one am back and forth on a few points. Right now I am of the mindset that a lot of things working all together create a HEALTHY unpyramided tortoise. I liked AndrewÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s questionnaire on the 3rd page, I am keeping detailed records of the leopards I am keeping and raising and IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m sure and hope that Tom and others are. Hopefully this will get us further along with this debate, but until these animals are grown up, pyramiding is just further speculation, theories, debates, and experiments.

With regards to humidity, Onarock brought up a good point; how do we know we are doing right by our shelled companions? Most of us seem to accept that high amounts of humidity all the time will prevent pyramiding no matter what, but is this a Band-Aid on the problem? Or what new problems could possibly come about? I like how Andrew has offered to pay for radiograph to find out what is happening inside, I think once we get to what is REALLY going on inside the tortoise and theories are proven consistently we can make some firm conclusions. It seems EJ thinks itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s important, though on this forum he always said he keeps his bone dry.


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## John (Jan 1, 2011)

i don't get the guru list from what i have read the whole humidity thing was brought on by the fife brothers.and from what i red they have proven the theory.how do they not fit in here.highfield is dated and too be frank pirog continously contradicts himself.dan i only know what i've seen here all has been good.


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## Neal (Jan 1, 2011)

Humidity is just part of the debate. The Fife's didn't necessarily "bring on" the humidity aspect, they more brought it into a wider audience with their books and articles.


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## Tom (Jan 1, 2011)

squamata said:


> i don't get the guru list from what i have read the whole humidity thing was brought on by the fife brothers.and from what i red they have proven the theory.how do they not fit in here.highfield is dated and too be frank pirog continously contradicts himself.dan i only know what i've seen here all has been good.



All good points. Worded a different way:

The Fife's have been producing dozens or hundreds smooth leopards and sulcatas for several years now. I don't know how much more "proof" there could be.

Highfield refuses to acknowledge what is obvious and right in front of his face.

Ed seems to have a lot of hard earned practical knowledge, but his personality quirks prevent him from sharing it very well. I wish there was something I could say to him to turn that fact around.

Danny, gives tidbits, but so far has been a bit cryptic. He drops some pretty heavy bombs, but then doesn't respond when asked for further clarification. I respect his knowledge and like him just the same.


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## John (Jan 1, 2011)

toms right on the wording my point on the fifes is simple they have a thoery,they state that theory,they show their work,and can present the results.everyone else is still speculating and debating.i myself would put them at the top of the guru list until the others can prove otherwise.


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## Balboa (Jan 1, 2011)

Good call on the Fifes, and maybe they should make the list as well. 

It was really a "personal" list for me, and while the Fifes have had a great impact on much I've learned it has largely been indirect. In other words, I have read little if any of their work, but I know they've influenced Tom, who's work has been a large part of my thinking.

I think Tom is working his way into the list as well for that matter.


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## Tom (Jan 1, 2011)

I'm flattered, Balboa, but I have a long way to go and much to accomplish before I'll consider myself in the company of the aforementioned crowd.


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## dmmj (Jan 1, 2011)

Tom said:


> I'm flattered, Balboa, but I have a long way to go and much to accomplish before I'll consider myself in the company of the aforementioned crowd.


I have to disagree tom what you are doing with your youngun' should be looked upon all as a good way to start and I think down the line people will be saying "I knew tom when he was a member of TFO"


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## onarock (Jan 1, 2011)

I would add Bill Zovickian and William Holmstrom


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## Tom (Jan 1, 2011)

onarock said:


> I would add Bill Zovickian and William Holmstrom



I have heard those names, but do not know what they have contributed to tortoise knowledge and the advancement of better care. I personally have not learned anything directly from either of them that I know of.

What have they done besides breed really expensive and rare torts?


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## onarock (Jan 1, 2011)

I knew it Tom, you would be on here asking that very thing. Well I'm sure according to you that because neither one of them published anything related to keeping tortoises hot and humid, then not much. I dont want to hijack the thread so I will just say this. Some people here have mentioned "authors" and I have read their stuff. I have also had first hand contact with the two I mentioned and the info that I have received from them make some of these so called tortoise experst books read like "**** and Jane"


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## stells (Jan 2, 2011)

Whats this... a slag off most people... and big a few up thread... geez...


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## John (Jan 2, 2011)

well i read trough too page 9 and came too the conclusion that this is why nothing can ever be proven when it comes too these guru's as their called.basically i spent half an hour watching too grown men poking each other with sticks


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## egyptiandan (Jan 2, 2011)

Always good to have a debate without the principles involved in it. 

It's fine to give your take on what was said, tried or done, as it pertains to what your take on it is. Not good though to use what they said to debate this again without them being here.

No I have never given in 1 post or thread what goes into getting or not getting a pyramided tortoise.

No I don't think that the scute material is what pyramids, not sure where that came from. 

Here is what I think in a nutshell  and it was said very well by kbaker in the pyramiding as an enviromental response thread. 

Growing a smooth tortoise is a balancing act. You must balance everything as almost everything affects how a tortoise grows. You must get the balance of vitamins and minerals to produce strong bones, get enough calories into the tortoise to use the vitamins and minerals, prevent dehydration of your tortoise, cut down or eliminate stress.
Every species is different in how much variation, of what they need to grow smooth, they can tolerate and still grow smooth. Some can take a big variation and others can't. 
So like I said you can't focus on one thing that will magicly grow a smooth tortoise. Everything has to be taken as a whole and dealt with as a whole. Everything is important in it's own little or big way. 

I'll try not to be so "cryptic" in the future 

Danny


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## John (Jan 2, 2011)

egyptiandan said:


> Always good to have a debate without the principles involved in it.
> 
> It's fine to give your take on what was said, tried or done, as it pertains to what your take on it is. Not good though to use what they said to debate this again without them being here.
> 
> ...


lol this seems too be the statement evryone is in agreement on.its a blanket statement that covers all opinions,which doesn't make it wrong but could and should provide the basis for the arguing too stop and the minds coming together too pool their efforts and come too some solid conclusions,and put it too bed already.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 2, 2011)

Without reading any of this thread -

( per Danny ) It stands to reason that the basic care parameters must be met... I certainly hope that is understood. With that in mind...

Retain high humidity directly on the carapace and your tortoise will grow smooth.

Retain no humidity directly on the carapace and your tortoise will grow not smooth. Nothing "magic" about that.

I have experienced both situations personally since late '90's.. involving 100's of hatchlings since '04.

This simple and easy care can be maintained anywhere on the planet.

Terry K


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## stells (Jan 2, 2011)

Which species of tortoise are you talking? Redfoots i'm guessing... 

Not my pointless... easy to grow... greeks... that fair better than other tortoises... apparently



Redfoot NERD said:


> Without reading any of this thread -
> 
> ( per Danny ) It stands to reason that the basic care parameters must be met... I certainly hope that is understood. With that in mind...
> 
> ...


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## Tom (Jan 2, 2011)

onarock said:


> I knew it Tom, you would be on here asking that very thing. Well I'm sure according to you that because neither one of them published anything related to keeping tortoises hot and humid, then not much. I dont want to hijack the thread so I will just say this. Some people here have mentioned "authors" and I have read their stuff. I have also had first hand contact with the two I mentioned and the info that I have received from them make some of these so called tortoise experst books read like "**** and Jane"



The typed word takes away so much of a person's intent.

I'm not knocking a them, at all, I'm just genuinely asking what and how they have contributed to tortoise keepers around the world. They may both be the two smartest tortoise keepers that ever lived, but if they aren't sharing it somehow, how can I classify them as "guru's"? So I'm just asking what they have contributed and how. So much happens out in the reptile world that I'm totally ignorant of because I'm not really an "insider". I'm just asking you to correct my ignorance.

I don't know if you meant your second sentence in jest, but if not, I'm a little bummed by your low opinion of me.



Redfoot NERD said:


> Without reading any of this thread -
> 
> ( per Danny ) It stands to reason that the basic care parameters must be met... I certainly hope that is understood. With that in mind...
> 
> ...



This is very well worded and I agree whole heartedly. All the factors that are usually brought up do play a part, but if its too dry, none of those other factors will matter. I've pyramided sulcatas, redfoots, leopards, greeks, russians, CDTs and TTs over all the years. All the other factors that have been mentioned and discussed were all met, but I raised them all too dry. They all had a good diet, proper supplementation, spacious enclosures with proper hiding spots and good temps, lots of sunshine and exercise in large outdoor pens.

By contrast, I've seen many examples all over the globe, where these other factors were clearly NOT met and yet the shell was smooth and gorgeous because of humidity, moisture and hydration.

What I'm saying is that this general concept of "balance" doesn't seem to matter at all if its too dry, but if its nice and wet, your "balance" can be off by a lot and you still get smooth growth. This has been my experience universally with rare exception.


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## DeanS (Jan 2, 2011)

Tom! We're friends, so you may have been taking my words a little light-hearted! But, I AM NOT KIDDING! When I say you are the guru...YOU ARE THE GURU! I agree with most of what's been said about everyone here! I don't need to repeat what's been said about Ed and Andy! Danny is a textbook genius here...he gives you enough to sate your interest then leaves you to figure the rest out on your own...that's great and I respect that! Richard Fife pretty much keeps to himself (unless he's selling or doing a TTPG thing)...and that's fine! He's made everything available in print! And remember, he's been retired from zoo life longer than most of us have been keeping tortoises (or in some cases, longer than some here have been alive). But I digress! Tom is the most accessible source of information on the Forum and he doesn't rest on his laurels! He knows damn well that what he's traversed is the correct path. He has taken what Richard Fife has pioneered to the next level (and the level after that). And he's not done yet! I've seen what he's accomplished firsthand and frankly, he makes me feel like a novice (and I'm not!). Anyone here who has met him, PM'd him, phoned him or emailed him, will atest that they've received a comprehensive, intelligent, logical and timely answer to their query. And I'd also be willing to bet that Tom's total PM intake matches his total posts! The fact is that the present and future of tortoise-keeping is going to be based heavily on Tom's findings. Debate this if you will, but you can't deny a guru!


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 2, 2011)

stells said:


> Which species of tortoise are you talking? Redfoots i'm guessing...
> 
> Not my pointless... easy to grow... greeks... that fair better than other tortoises... apparently
> 
> ...



No Kelly.. leopards and sulcatas also - although in smaller numbers.


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## egyptiandan (Jan 2, 2011)

If your getting pyramiding and it's to dry, than it's out of balance, plain and simple. 

Tom where have you seen a tortoise that was not given the right amount of vitamins and minerals, but was kept humid? I do remember you giving examples, but they all had diets that worked. Not that I recommend dry dog kibble to feed your sulcata, it does obviously have everything in it to have a tortoise grow well. Don't think the animal protein would do it's liver any good, but the food supplies all it needs to grow good bone.

Don't see where you can say Tom, that a tortoise on a diet that doesn't supply enough vitamins and minerals, but kept humid, will grow well.

So we should all be saying that you can feed your tortoise whatever you want, but keep it humid, and it will grow well.

I'm afraid I don't agree. 

Danny


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## Balboa (Jan 2, 2011)

egyptiandan said:


> Always good to have a debate without the principles involved in it.
> 
> It's fine to give your take on what was said, tried or done, as it pertains to what your take on it is. Not good though to use what they said to debate this again without them being here.



SNIP

LOL of all the things to beg to differ with you on Danny.

The presented debate is now part of the public record as a document. I found that Document interesting and wished to share it with others to read. I think a discussion of that material is quite appropriate. 



(I suppose that's a little warning to all of us. These forums are not private conversation, they are public "speak", open to all and transcribed for eternity (or at least as long as the board exists) so that might be a good thing to remember as we speak)





stells said:


> Whats this... a slag off most people... and big a few up thread... geez...



Seriously Kelly,

I know you're a knowledgeable person. I've seen you make constructive posts before. What happened? Please ditch a little of this bitterness, life is too short for so much animosity.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 2, 2011)

Well, Maggie and I have been saying right along...humidity, correct temperatures, diet and exercise grow a smooth, healthy tortoise.


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## Candy (Jan 2, 2011)




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## stells (Jan 2, 2011)

stells said:


> Whats this... a slag off most people... and big a few up thread... geez...



Seriously Kelly,

I know you're a knowledgeable person. I've seen you make constructive posts before. What happened? Please ditch a little of this bitterness, life is too short for so much animosity.
[/quote]

Seriously Balboa... don't tell me how to post...

Ok a mere little Thb this time... Frisbee as he is known to me... one of the one's i took on... one of the one's.. as to why this pinpoining on one thing... bugs the hell out of me...

He had... HUMIDITY... that's one thing he did have... he didn't have suppliments... he didn't have good food... he didn't have much of anything else to be honest... and he's not quite right is he...









I have had him 2 years now... and he now acts like a normal tortoise... he came to me unable to walk on his back end... and was one i thought i would lose...


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## onarock (Jan 2, 2011)

Tom, if you think I have a low opinion of you, then I apologize. I'ts just the opposite. I do, however, think some of your posts on pyramiding and humidity are a bit overzealous. I do believe humidity plays a part, but as Danny stated I feel its just a part of many things. (Danny, I like the balancing act comparison). There have been soo many interesting points made both here at TFO and on the thread we are referancing. How do we know that the "swamp" like conditions being put forth in regards to smooth shells is'nt just overcompinsating for something thats lacking or too much of something else? How do we know that keeping them in pens that arent well planted, or planted at all, makes their shell grow pyramid as a result of stress or defence aginst possible predators. How do we know that when bringing them indoors, as many do, that inadequate lighting makes their shell grow to the light as indoor plants do trying to get closer to those valuable "rays". How do we know that pyramid shell is not an adaptation to metabolic needs that arent being met. I have been growing hydroponically indoors for over 20 years and I've seen plants take on some crazy characteristics because needs werent met. I'm not saying tortoises are like plants, but its something to think about. Tom, I love your enthusiasm, in fact, I feed on it and I dont think I'm alone in this. Please dont think I have a low opinion of you. Your a smart, well intentioned individual and I wish more people took tortoise husbandry as serious as you. Paul


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## Balboa (Jan 2, 2011)

Aaaahhhh Come on Kelly!!!

((((((((((((((((((((((Kelly)))))))))))))))))) big ol internet hug!!!!!!!

Smile for me !! 

That's better!


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## stells (Jan 2, 2011)

Don't hug me either... i don't do hugs...


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 2, 2011)

Yvonne and I have been saying for years that it takes 4 things to grow a smooth tortoise, good diet, lots of exercise, strong UVB and lots (80%) of humidity. But nobody listens to us. Nobody calls us guru's or points out our advice as great. So I really do think what is happening here is a popularity contest. It's who does the group like better? Certainly not 2 grumpy old ladies or a woman from the UK. We were saying those things before we ever discovered TFO. We have spread that word over several list serves and other forums where we WERE somebodies. But we come to TFO and we are ignored for the most part in the discussion of pyramiding. So I personally do think this is a personality contest and if you're not young and good lookin and pushing your own care sheets you are basically ignored. I don't mean to ***** and I don't mean to hurt anybodies feelings, I am just speaking the truth as I feel it. Maybe Yvonne is a friend of Richard Fife and can brag about that but I am not. I am not in the inner circle of tortoise breeding and conversation. I am just a small irritable old lady who quietly cares for sick and young and disabled tortoises. I don't know much about breeding or the breeding world, but I do know how to raise smooth, social, healthy tortoises without bragging about it. The only thing I can brag about is that I am not liked by AH...and I am proud of it.


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## Tom (Jan 2, 2011)

egyptiandan said:


> Don't see where you can say Tom, that a tortoise on a diet that doesn't supply enough vitamins and minerals, but kept humid, will grow well.
> 
> So we should all be saying that you can feed your tortoise whatever you want, but keep it humid, and it will grow well.
> 
> ...




I am not, and would not ever advocate a poor diet, but I can't deny what I've seen. I've seen several sulcatas that were either neglected or fed the wrong stuff and yet had beautiful smooth shells. They all had access to sunshine and very high humidity. Some of them only ate whatever weeds and grass sprouted up in their area, while others were fed the aforementioned poor diet.

I have to concede that you are right about the balance of several elements. Without UV no tortoise will be healthy no matter how everything else is balanced. Likewise, I can tell you all from experience that without adequate humidity (very hard to provide in my neck of the woods) they will pyramid, no matter how everything else is balanced. Those of you that dispute this do not live in an area as devoid of ambient humidity as mine. How much humidity is adequate is dependent upon many factors, ambient being just one of them. This is what accounts for a lot of this disagreement. Obviously different species also have very different requirements, and this fact accounts for a big chunk of the rest of the disagreement.




onarock said:


> How do we know that the "swamp" like conditions being put forth in regards to smooth shells is'nt just overcompinsating for something thats lacking or too much of something else?



Thanks for the note and the compliments. I thought that was where you were coming from, just can't always tell with the typed word.

I've been challenged with the above question many times in many forms. Each time I've asked the questioner to help me figure out what is missing from my husbandry that I would need to "over-compensate" for. They gets lots of sun in large outdoor pens. MVBs over the winter, even though they still get frequent sun. Adequate shelter and hides both indoors and out. A good, varied diet made up of lots of non-grocery store items. I've tried the diet in varying quantities over the years and experienced slower growth, but no difference as far as pyramiding is concerned. Regular calcium and vitamin supplementation. Proper temps and thermogradients.

No matter how or what I did in the past they ALWAYS pyramided. Now, with the swamp routine, they all grow smooth. Nothing else is any different. I had dozens of failures in the past 20 years with the dry, desert routine, and now, as of May 2010, I have had 100% success with 42 individuals of three different species.

Yes, all of the other factors must be present (good diet, supplements, UV), but wet or dry has to be acknowledged as the biggest deciding factor.


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## Madkins007 (Jan 2, 2011)

My question for Tom, NERD, and the other 'humidity/moisture/misting is the key' people (and I already know that you all agree that basic cares and diet are important as well) is the issue of bone density. 

Andy H., whatever other opinions you may have of him or his other statements, does make an interesting point with his claim that pyramiding and poor bone density go hand in hand. He has some decent evidence with things like autopsies and X-rays of live animals.

Do you think the high humidity method addresses bone density or bone health? Or, is this not an issue?


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## onarock (Jan 2, 2011)

I have some thoughts on this as well. Some of wich I have posted on TFO and some I have shared in private conversations wtih you. I'll share another and this one came about in some emails sent between Bill Zovickian and myself. I am thinking that we keep hatchling tortoises way too hot. The recommendation that hatchlings be kept 80-85 ambient temp I think is right on par, but the 100+ basking spot is way, way too hot. As I have stated here before, I keep all my torts outside. My hatchlings never, well 99% never, bask in direct sunlight. If it were not for the occasional treat that I may toss in for them, they would never get direct full sunlight. In the morning they come to the edge of the tall grass, shrub or bush to catch indirect or partial sun. Durring this time they are in more shade than sun. At mid day they seen to go deeper in the tall grass, shrub or bush and recieve no sun at all. In the afternoon they will come to the edge of the vegitation once again, but never fully exposing themselves. I have noticed that with my leopards they will do this untill their about 5-7 inches. At that point they will become more brave or comfortable and actually bask in the full sun. I think in an indoor situation the amount of humidity is in direct corilation with the basking temps. The hotter the bask, the more humidity you need to combat it. The cooler the bask, the less humidity you need. Bill Z said that he had observed wild populations of tortoises acting in the same manner as what I have witnessed here at home. He also says that he doesnt provide full basking spots for his torts untill they are almost 7". He keeps all his hatchling tortoises except pyxis, on eucalyptus mulch, dry and only provides uva and b without heat. He also maintains them at 85 degrees. He also points out that after 7" he will provide basking spots but not all day as they will just tend to sit and bask. I am thinking that in the wild tortoises will heat themselves and start foraging and that action doesnt necissarily mean they are in full sun all day either. In captivity, there is really no need for tortoises to forage. Their food is on schedule or readily available so all they have to do is bask. Could it be that basking, however necissary for a tortoise is also addicting to them as well and this excessive basking is leading to them being exposed to unnecissary heat causing us to crank up the humidity to unnatural levels? Sorry for the rambling just some more off the wall jargin from yours truly


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## Tom (Jan 2, 2011)

Madkins007 said:


> My question for Tom, NERD, and the other 'humidity/moisture/misting is the key' people (and I already know that you all agree that basic cares and diet are important as well) is the issue of bone density.
> 
> Andy H., whatever other opinions you may have of him or his other statements, does make an interesting point with his claim that pyramiding and poor bone density go hand in hand. He has some decent evidence with things like autopsies and X-rays of live animals.
> 
> Do you think the high humidity method addresses bone density or bone health? Or, is this not an issue?



To me the word pyramiding is synonymous with that porous-type bone. If you don't have pyramiding you won't have that porous bone either. There is nowhere for it to be. In other words, if you have a smooth shell, and the husbandry is correct as you noted above, then the underlying bone would have to be smooth too. It can't get porous and grow inward.

I'm seriously considering taking up Andy on his offer to pay for x-rays of my sulcata babies. I can certainly answer all of the questions on his questionnaire. Maybe I'll see if one of my vet friends can get it done at a discount. It would answer this question pretty easily.


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## Kristina (Jan 2, 2011)

onarock, I agree with you. I think that we keep our tortoises too hot. They need to have a minimum internal temperature in order to function properly and digest food, but it does not require 100 degrees to do so. I have said a million times from observing my tortoises outside and watching them run and hide when temps hit 85 that 100 is too warm, and this is even adults that I am talking about.

Others argue that it gets way hotter than that in the desert, but the question is - are they sitting in the heat and the sun? I don't think so. They are in their burrows. 

Underground temperatures are more stable and I bet you dollars to donuts that it stays around 80 all the time in those big Sully burrows over there in Africa. During the day, the sand heats up but the burrow stays consistent because of how far underground it is. It might go up a few degrees, but not much, and at night, the sand releases the heat that it absorbed during the day again keeping the burrow consistent. 

I have been keeping my baby Greek from the time I got her (August) at a consistent 82* with no basking spot, and she has tripled in size. She also is not pyramided, and I mist her once a day, and soak her every other day or so. I also don't overfeed her. She gets one meal a day that she can finish in 10-15 minutes. I wet down the substrate every week or so, and then let it dry back out over the course of the next week, as if it had rained (topsoil.) She has a little bitty burrow that she dug herself, and she spends a lot of time in there. When she comes out and starts really stomping around, it is because she is hungry, lol. And I have this smooth, gorgeous, active little rock hard baby. 

My hatchling Redfoot is kept almost exactly the same way. 82* ambient temperature, no basking or hot spot. I spray him once a day, although I did start out spraying him (and the Greek too) a lot more in the first couple of months. He eats the same things my adults eat, greens, fruits etc. along with worms and fish. He doesn't have a burrow, but a flower pot turned on its side and covered and stuffed with moss. I think he was around 2 1/2" SCL when I got him (September,) and is now over 3 1/4". And perfectly smooth! His new growth is just smooth and shiny and perfect. 

So, for those of you that would do things differently, what would you say I am doing "wrong" and why? My enclosures aren't as hot, and I don't keep them as wet, but I still have smooth, healthy tortoises. I believe that is because it absolutely IS a mixture of things. It has everything to do with food and temperature and exercise as much as it does humidity. And even though I have two different species from two totally different continents, my "formula" is working for both.


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## Tom (Jan 2, 2011)

Paul, I don't know if this helps or hurts your argument, but whenever I have my herd outside, I check shell temps with my temp gun. On a warm day they will all be around 97-99. On a cool day they will still be mid-90's. The CDTs run just a little cooler at low to mid 90's, but they are only tiny hatchlings.

Also, I've seen people keeping their torts at the temps you mentioned and if its dry, they still pyramid, if its wet, like the outdoor ones in FL or New Orleans they don't.

Sounds like Bill keeps his in a similar manner to the Fifes. I'll be giving this a try with my next batch of sulcata hatchlings in May.


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## onarock (Jan 2, 2011)

Kristina, I think your keeping is right on par with what I was thinking. I would like to see pics of your enclosures along with temp zones and humidity levels as I think they go hand in hand. With your method it sounds like soaking and spraying is more in line with what I would believe to be more "natural" and "realistic" conditions. Pics of those torts would be great also.


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## Tom (Jan 2, 2011)

Very compelling argument Kristina. How well do you think it would work with "desert" species. I'm planning on trying what you are doing, but with sulcatas. I was planning on temps of 85-90 though.


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## Kristina (Jan 2, 2011)

I think it would work Tom. Part of the reason I want so bad to get my hands on a Sully or Leo baby, lol. I have been saying for years that my way would work, but until I got the two hatchlings I couldn't prove anything. Now I can  I just need a Sulcata or Leo to work with. 

I have pics of both enclosures. I'll do a log of the humidity levels over a week so you can see how they change, and I will get some new pictures of the babies tonight (about time I showed them off again, anyway  ) 

The temps are more or less constant throughout the entire enclosures. They are smaller aquariums so it is easier to heat them consistently, there is maybe a 2* difference from one side to the other. 

Baby Greek - 

The day I got her, for size references (I am holding her in both pictures.)







This picture is about a month old but shows her shell pretty well. 






And another






Enclosure, 10 gallon aquarium






Coming out of her self-dug burrow






Baby Redfoot - 

The day I got him






This picture is also about a month old






And a top view






Enclosure is a 20 gallon (slate bottom Metaframe) aquarium.


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## Tom (Jan 2, 2011)

I'll bet money that redfoot turns out to be female. Great looking enclosures. How do you heat them? I was going to just heat the whole room. I'd be happy to send you a couple of well started sulcata hatchlings this spring. She should be laying sometime in the next month. Of course I'll post it when she does.


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## Kristina (Jan 2, 2011)

Ha ha, you know, I say "he" but every time I have looked at the, um, identifying parts  I have thought female myself. Either way, it is so unique I wouldn't trade it for the world. 

The metaframe tank has a solid metal lid with two small vents. I covered the vents with mesh because of the little treefrog that also resides in there  All the heat comes from a 75W incandescent black light bulb. The other lights do throw a bit of heat, but they are just 6500K GE CFLs so they don't get very warm at all. At night I have never seen it drop below 78*.

The 10 gallon has just a regular mesh terrarium lid that I covered with aluminum foil. The heat source is a 60W incandescent black light bulb. There are two CFLS in that aquarium also. 

You all already know that I don't use UV lights, although I still cringe when I type it because I think ya'll might come after me with torches and pitchforks...

The new enclosures I am building are going to be 12' X 3' each, impervious to water and fully enclosed and insulated to make them easier/cheaper to heat consistently. I have also designed a mister system that will run on timers with the frequency of misting dictated by species. For daytime heating I will be using 100 watt swimming pool spotlights in exterior swivel fixtures (they will hold up better when the misters are on  ) The hatchling enclosures will have the same components but be more the size of a 40 gallon breeder. I have been doing a LOT of research on different components and I am beyond excited to start this project. 

I would love a couple of baby Sullies. I miss my big old Ella something terrible.


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## Balboa (Jan 2, 2011)

Well my concerns about basking are no secret. Sounds like a lot of us are keen on the idea of doing away with the things. The only thing that scares me about that is ensuring they are warm enough. There's a big question mark there for me.

I don't really see providing a bask as keeping the younguns too hot, I see it as providing a way for them to get hot enough when they need to. Now if they live under the thing, there's no doubt in my mind that's damaging. 

I'm still trying to think of a way to provide heat gradients without dry spots.


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## terryo (Jan 3, 2011)

About a year ago I posted some pictures of Pio on Andy's site, and attributed his smooth shell to high humidity. 


*Terry,

The diet you are using is excellent and I would not expect to see poor bone development or "pyramiding" on such a regime - regardless of environmental conditions. 

On this topic of humidity affecting bone growth, there is NO serious scientific evidence for this whatsoever, and furthermore, the single piece of published "research" that those who promulgate such misinformation rely upon is deeply, deeply flawed. Let me put it this way. There are thousands of people (apparently) who believe that Adolph Hitler is still alive and was take to a secret base on the moon using flying saucers built by Nazi scientists ( ) They believe this passionately. Oh, and the moon is not airless - it has an atmosphere like Earth. NASA know this, but keep it secret so that "other countries" will not go there ( ). Everyone who disagrees is part of the great New World Order conspiracy or is simply a gullible fool. It is quite easy to get such nonsense accepted as fact, especially on the Internet where you have a lot of very vocal people spreading myths and "facts" they barely understand.

Fact: The biology of bone growth (and pathologies) is very well understood. Tortoises are no different than any other animal. The same rules apply.
Fact: Rapid growth is a key factor in all nutritionally related developmental bone pathologies.
Fact: Excess protein stimulates high growth rates.

If you control growth, and ensure adequate serum (blood) D3 and trace element levels the bone will develop correctly, at an optimum density. There will be no deformity. It cannot happen.

The whole "humidity" issue is a total red herring. It is unscientific, illogical, and unfortunately, leads many people to make fatal mistakes. Sadly, the good old Internet is the perfect place for such anti-science myths to spread like a nasty disease. 

Andy

On the subject of UVB

The facts are that Redfoots (and Yellowfoots) obtain some preformed vitamin-D3 from animal protein, and the rest from UV-B. Their skin is very much more efficient at generating vitamin D-3 precursor than, say, a Testudo graeca or Leopard tortoise. For one thing, there are no horny, overlapping scales (which reflect large amounts of UV-B). Their skin is closer to that of say, a Green iguana than a Testudo graeca. So, although they live in environments where direct UV-B levels are lower than that found in semi-arid habitats, due partly to cloud cover, and moisture in the air which refracts UV-B, and also to their preference for forest-edge type habitats with extensive vegetation cover, they are easily able to generate sufficient D3 from much more limited exposure than would be required for a Leopard, Sulcata or Testudo graeca. 

As always, this is a case of the tortoise being perfectly "designed" to optimise its performance in that specific habitat. 

I should add that Kinixys erosa and Kinixys homeana both use exactly the same strategy/methods (and also have a very similar diet). 

Andy *


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## Candy (Jan 3, 2011)

Wow Terry that's very interesting to read.  Is this "Andy" the one you got Pio from?  Kind of saying the same thing as Danny was trying to say.


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## jackrat (Jan 3, 2011)

Can't say that I agree with Andy. I respect his experiance and knowledge,but I have to believe what I've seen. The scientific method boils down to "the results are..". The results I have seen are "humidity is the paramount factor in producing a smooth carapace.


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## Tom (Jan 3, 2011)

I'm not typing up that whole rebuttal to Andy's ridiculous post again. I already did it the first time we saw this silliness. He has however gone back on these words, as evidenced in his recent excursion into the wild and what he wrote about it. He credited Ed P. with turning him around, if I'm not mistaken. Yvonne posted the info on this if I remember correctly.


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## Neal (Jan 3, 2011)

Does Andy raise sulcatas or leopards? Does anyone have an Andy produced tortoise or picture of one? I'd be a little curious, I can't seem to find anything but my internet searching skills are not very good.


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## Tom (Jan 3, 2011)

Good point Neal. How about we all look at this another way. Can anybody show me a smooth sulcata or leopard that THEY raised from a hatchling with out high humidity, moisture and hydration? CG Keith showed us a pretty nice yearling sulcata a while back.


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## onarock (Jan 3, 2011)

I got one. Since I'm posting pics of her tonight like she was an adult entertainer. No heat, no extra humidity, basically no contact at all. My son while picking 17 eggs out of her nest touched her more in 30 min than I have in the last 2 years.


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## Neal (Jan 4, 2011)

You're in Hawaii though, that's cheating.


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## Tom (Jan 4, 2011)

Yeah Onarock. I said "without" high humidity, moisture and hydration. Is there ever a day in paradise where it isn't humid or rainy? Just because you didn't do the humidity, doesn't mean it wasn't humid.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 4, 2011)

onarock said:


> I got one. Since I'm posting pics of her tonight like she was an adult entertainer. No heat, no extra humidity, basically no contact at all. My son while picking 17 eggs out of her nest touched her more in 30 min than I have in the last 2 years.



You've demonstrated again... you're not right!... whoever you are...

NERD


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## Neal (Jan 4, 2011)

Tom said:


> Good point Neal. How about we all look at this another way. Can anybody show me a smooth sulcata or leopard that THEY raised from a hatchling with out high humidity, moisture and hydration? CG Keith showed us a pretty nice yearling sulcata a while back.



Funny, even though I advocate high humidity, I do have that indian star and sulcatas I told you about that I raised bone dry without humid hides. The star I still have is perfectly smooth. The sulcatas I traded, one had pyramiding when I got him but the new growth was smooth, the other one was as smooth as your EOP sulcatas. I did soak them a lot, like every other day or every two days so maybe those don't really count for what your asking for. If I knew then what I know now I would have kept them, or at least taken pictures.


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## onarock (Jan 4, 2011)

OK Terry, I'll play along. Again? Tell me why? I've seen pics of more pyramid leopards in the wild or as imports.....


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## CGKeith (Jan 4, 2011)

I just thought of something that may or may not apply, but is interesting just the same.

I remember hearing about killer whales in captivity, their top fin will slump or hang over. But not the ones in the wild. They really don't have an explanation for this either. They get all the best care available at sea world, yet it still happens.


I do believe (from my own experience and as related here by others) that keeping a tortoises shell from overly drying out (hydration) and the humidity overall are huge factors in growing smooth(er).

But maybe, there are other things besides all the best food and humidity that we just don't understand yet. 

I think others have touched on stress and the effect it has on a bodies ability to utilize the nutrition properly and how that can lower the immunity levels as well.

Maybe just being in captivity in general, usually a small enclosure, is a factor as well.

We probably won't ever have all the answers, but it is looking like we can at least narrow down some of the variables and at least reduce some of the problem by spending a little time with a spray bottle in our hand.


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## Kristina (Jan 4, 2011)

Updated pictures of my Cherryhead hatchling. He is about 6 months old, by the way.


























I still owe you pics of my Greek hatchling


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## Madkins007 (Jan 4, 2011)

I've been thinking about things Maggie, Yvonne, Kristina, the guy from Wisconsin in the Reptiles Red-foot article who wondered why his humid Red-foots still pyramided, Andy H, Carl May, Allegra F, various authors, Dr. Mader, Dr. Susan Donohue, and others have been saying, and an example Carl used finally helped something gel.

It isn't humidity. It also isn't diet, or misting, or protein, or heat.

It's EVERYTHING.

I've used a medical analogy for years to discuss a completely different topic, but it applies here. Imagine you have a headache (possibly from another of my long and technical posts  ) You seek help from several health care practioners.

You ever realize that each of them will give you a different answer for the same headache? The chiropractor will try to realign your spine, the dietitian will have you eat differently. The psychiatrist will want to know the underlying stresses, the GP will give you aspirin or a similar over the counter drug, and the massage therapist will want to give you a good rub down. This guy will claim it is a seasonal issue and use phototherapy, the herbalist will go with herbs. Accupunturists, eye doctors, dentists... they will all offer varying ideas... and to a large extent- they all work!

That is because a headache is not a simple pain in your head. It makes your muscles tense, it changes the blood chemistry, it affects your eyes and taste buds and hearing and smell. It can affect your mood and thinking, even your memories. It was not usually caused by one single event, but by a coming together of many things- emotional, environmental, physical, chemical, etc.

Don't like that analogy? Let's use math! In the wild, nature produces smooth, healthy tortoises by combining 10 parts A + 10 parts B + 10 parts C (yada yada yada) + 10 parts J to make 100 parts of a healthy tortoise. In nature, if something changes, other things change as well. Only getting 6 parts A? You'll probably get 12 parts B and D to make up for it. Temperatures drop and change the food availability and humidity. Rainy season hits and changes the temps, humidity, food availablity, etc. Tortoise gets sick and self selects different microclimates and foods. It is all related and usually self-correcting.

It is not that way in our habitats. Temps fall, food and humidity remain the same. Humidity fluctuates, but lighting is a constant. Things come together that the tortoise needs more calcium, and they get the same amount they have for a month.

This is why the annoying guy raising the Red-foot on a dry substrate in a warm tank with poor quality food does not get pyramiding- he accidentally duplicated the dry season for the wild Red-foot in a savannah setting. The tortoise is growing slowly, and still getting the key nutrients it needs to support that level of growth. 

This is what Maggie, Yvonne, Kristina, and others have been trying to teach us. Guys, I'm sorry it took so long to see it, and Carl, thank you for being patient enough to answer another of my endless emails!


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## terryo (Jan 4, 2011)

I never see the need to add to these posts, because over thirty years keeping box turtles, and only three keeping tortoises, doesn't seem to qualify me, but Mark, this is the best post so far. 
I'm sorry, but I can't even dignify calling Andy H. and Ed P. "guru's", even though I agree with some of what Andy advocates.


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## Balboa (Jan 4, 2011)

Ok Folks,
I made the mistake of breaking my self imposed exile, read some more of this thread, and now feel obliged to speak my mind once again.

The listing of AH, EJ and Danny as gurus was obviously a mistake. I only did that to explain why I found the linked debate so interesting. In MY mind these guys have GREAT influence on how people all over the world care for their tortoises. AH and EJ are the guys doing the research and writing the books. I included Danny to explain why I included his take on things while appraising the debate between AH and EJ. Danny is not just active here folks. He's active on other forums too. Thousands of posts.

It was not meant to be a "popularity" contest. My ad hoc suggestion that Tom would be in their ranks someday was meant as a little fun. (even if it does have a grain of truth to it)

It was never meant to diminish the likes of Yvonne and Maggie.

This whole thing was started as I thought others might find the pyramiding debate interesting, and I was curious about the what others might take from it.

Instead it turns into bickering about gurus, and people being hurt that they are not "gurus" and thinly veiled insults at others for trying to make a point instead of constructive comments or counter points.

To those of you that kept on track despite the side-shows, thank you for your constructive input.

----------------------------------

Your statements about all of a sudden "getting it" make me chuckle Mark. It always seemed to me that you did get it as you are now expressing it, but maybe your words were expressing your subconscious faster than your mind came to its conscious conclusions. What you're stating seems right in-line with Danny's take to me about balance and looking at the whole. (which I always found humerous that he's criticed me on that, as I'm usually looking at the "whole" in my mind too  )


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 4, 2011)

kyryah said:


> Updated pictures of my Cherryhead hatchling. He is about 6 months old, by the way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kristina's "Black-Cherry" hatched late May '10.. his cousin below hatched late March '10 -

(he came out to eat and I picked him up and set him down in unfamiliar territory to take his pics and he never stopped - bad pics )

You know how he has been started and kept - would not sit still -











I just clicked and hoped -






I think you get the idea...

Terry K


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## Tom (Jan 4, 2011)

Mark, I don't care for the headache example, but that doesn't matter. The rest of that post was GOLDEN. It helped me realize something about my continual disagreements with people on this subject. The reason that I think it is primarily humidity/moisture/hydration above all the other factors is that for the past 20 years I've mostly had all the other factors RIGHT, even though I always had this ONE very important factor WRONG. So, from my perspective it looks like H/M/H is the defining factor. I guess I just assume that everybody else know that they need a proper diet, proper temps, exercise, sunshine and supplementation. Maybe I give "them" too much credit. The only groundbreaking NEW info is the H/M/H. All the other stuff is old hat to me and I thought it was to the rest of the world too.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 4, 2011)

Tom said:


> Mark, I don't care for the headache example, but that doesn't matter. The rest of that post was GOLDEN. It helped me realize something about my continual disagreements with people on this subject. The reason that I think it is primarily humidity/moisture/hydration above all the other factors is that for the past 20 years I've mostly had all the other factors RIGHT, even though I always had this ONE very important factor WRONG. So, from my perspective it looks like H/M/H is the defining factor. I guess I just assume that everybody else know that they need a proper diet, proper temps, exercise, sunshine and supplementation. Maybe I give "them" too much credit. The only groundbreaking NEW info is the H/M/H. All the other stuff is old hat to me and I thought it was to the rest of the world too.



Golden or otherwise Tom.. I always 'assumed' proper care was understood and practiced too! See what happens when we 'assume'?

Terry K


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## Candy (Jan 4, 2011)

Did someone mention Killer Whales?  Oh yeah CGKeith did and here's your answer. 

http://oceanlink.island.net/ask/odontoceti.html states that tanks are usually shallow and the whales can only take a few strokes in any direction before coming to a wall, so they spend much of their time at the tank's surface. This can lead to skin problems and is the probable cause of fin collapse. This is because gravity pulls the dorsal fin over as the orca matures, because it is not supported by water. This happens to all captive males and many captive females.

http://oceanlink.island.net/ask/odontoceti.html#anchor662263 states that the dorsal fins are supported by cartilage. When a male goes through his "growth spurt" in the early teenage years, the dorsal fin grows really tall, really fast and becomes heavy. A whale with a straight dorsal fin has spent lots of time in deep water, where the water pressure keeps the fin upright until the cartilage hardens. Orcas that go through their growth spurt in captivity have a bent fin, as the pools aren't deep enough to create the water pressure needed to support the soft cartilage in the fin, so the weight of the fin's cartilage makes the fin flop over. Once the cartilage hardens, the fin is shaped forever.
Another possible cause of collapsed dorsal fins is due to lack of exercise through turning leading to diminished muscle tone.




Mark great post about the headaches! Understood completely. I was looking through other posts because I thought Carl had posted and was quite interested in his point of view. 

I myself appreciate Danny very much on this site, the only thing I get mad at is he won't tell us what tortoise college he went to.   Yvonne and Maggie are very much appreciated too.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 4, 2011)

Those of us "nonguru's" are not hurt because we're not guru's. We're insulted because we have been saying for years there's 4 ways to prevent pyramiding. Many people on list serves and other forums paid attention to us, but not TFO. Our word, our advice has been ignored on TFO, then a couple of newbies come on talking about humidity and writing up care sheets and all the sudden our 4 ways to prevent pyramiding is pushed to the way side and you are acting like humidity is something that's just been discovered. Eureka! We don't want to be popular, we are quiet people who don't want fame, we just want our 4 ways to be acknowledged, or maybe we don't want anything, we just don't want ya'll acting like humidity to prevent pyramiding is a new thing. It's not. We've been blabbing about it for years and raising smooth Sulcata and CDT's. But you all are acting like you've just discovered gold in them thar hills. Humidity to prevent pyramiding is an old thing, we have been advocating it for years, it's not something new. It takes 4 things to prevent pyramiding...a good and varied diet, lots of exercise, good UVB and lots of humidity...miss out on one of those things and you have a pyramided animal. Simple, yet complicated


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## Yvonne G (Jan 4, 2011)

Well, I have to somewhat disagree with this stand, Maggie. I have been saying a tortoise needs a good diet, lots of exercise, UVB and the correct temperatures to be healthy. But I didn't know about the humidity aspect of the equation until recently (Tom). And that's when I added Humidity to the mix.

I kept a couple tortoises that I hatched out of eggs and they are pineapples. If I had only known about the humidity 4 years ago, they would probably be smooth. They had a good diet, lots of UVB, exercise and the correct temps, but no humidity.

I'm not into turtles and tortoises for the recognition. So I don't care if my name is included on any list. And it doesn't bother me in the least not to be lumped together with tortoise experts, because I don't feel that I am an expert. I just share my experience. I would appreciate it if you all would just leave my name out of it...thanks!


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## Madkins007 (Jan 4, 2011)

Tom said:


> Mark, I don't care for the headache example, but that doesn't matter. The rest of that post was GOLDEN. It helped me realize something about my continual disagreements with people on this subject. The reason that I think it is primarily humidity/moisture/hydration above all the other factors is that for the past 20 years I've mostly had all the other factors RIGHT, even though I always had this ONE very important factor WRONG. So, from my perspective it looks like H/M/H is the defining factor. I guess I just assume that everybody else know that they need a proper diet, proper temps, exercise, sunshine and supplementation. Maybe I give "them" too much credit. The only groundbreaking NEW info is the H/M/H. All the other stuff is old hat to me and I thought it was to the rest of the world too.



As I was reading this, I remembered something you had said some time ago, about living in Southern Calif and it being very dry. In hindsight, I suspect it may have been a bigger factor than either of us had thought.

Here in Omaha, it is kind of dry, but it is even more so cold and dark in the winter. Warmth and good light with UVB may be my biggest battles, followed by my mediocre access to good food in the winter. Good hydration is a problem as well.

Maybe this is part of that piece that has been driving us all crazy- the 'big thing' for you may not be the 'big thing' for me? 



Of course, part of the theory is 'aiming for a balance'. In the wild, hot dry weather means meager, fibrous foods and limited access to water, which means slow growth patterns, aestivation, reduced daily activities, etc. 

I know you said that small meals/slow growth was not a factor in your experience, but I wonder if maybe it is not so much the size of the meals as it is the nutrient make-up?

Even Red-foots in most of their range experience periods of hot (or cold) and dry weather, and it makes a HUGE difference in what foods are available and their eating patterns.


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## CGKeith (Jan 4, 2011)

Candy, thanks for the info on the whales. 

I know it was OT, but very interesting how captive conditions contribute.


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## terryo (Jan 4, 2011)

Tom Wrote: 
Mark, I don't care for the headache example, but that doesn't matter. The rest of that post was GOLDEN. It helped me realize something about my continual disagreements with people on this subject. The reason that I think it is primarily humidity/moisture/hydration above all the other factors is that for the past 20 years I've mostly had all the other factors RIGHT, even though I always had this ONE very important factor WRONG. So, from my perspective it looks like H/M/H is the defining factor. I guess I just assume that everybody else know that they need a proper diet, proper temps, exercise, sunshine and supplementation. Maybe I give "them" too much credit. The only groundbreaking NEW info is the H/M/H. All the other stuff is old hat to me and I thought it was to the rest of the world too.

I totally agreeTom, but a new Tortoise keeper wouldn't know any of this. Three years ago when I first went to Terry K. asking for advice, he stressed the importance of good nutrition to me, along with humidity. He gave me a list of foods to feed Pio, with the highest in calcium coming first on the list. He also told me not to supplement with vitamins or calcium until he was 6 months old and to let him get his nutrition from his food. He told me to do everything in balance, but stressed that humidity was very important. Then Andy H. told me to add the UVB light, and told me that humidity was important, but didn't stress it as much as Terry K. Confusing isn't the word. So when trying to help a new keeper, you guys have to stress the importance of balance, and just not assume that we know what it's all about.


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## ChiKat (Jan 4, 2011)

Candy said:


> Did someone mention Killer Whales?  Oh yeah CGKeith did and here's your answer.



hahaha I was waiting for you Candy!!! I LOVE it!
Btw my mom and sister went to California last week and went to Seaworld (womp womp) and my mom called me and was like "their dorsal fins seem fine!" haha at least I know she listens to me vent 

Carry on friends...

eta: And I agree that it is important to stress the _balance_ of all aspects of tortoise care. Not just the humidity. (there, trying to stay on topic )


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## Madkins007 (Jan 4, 2011)

terryo said:


> (snip) So when trying to help a new keeper, you guys have to stress the importance of balance, and just not assume that we know what it's all about.



LOL! And isn't that sort of the big Catch 22? A forum is not really a good place to learn a subject from scratch- whether it is tortoise care or knitting. You can learn the key issues better in other places- dedicated sites, YouTube, etc.

Forums are best suited to handling more specific issues, philosophies, sharing data and opinions, etc.

That is one reason I am happy to see the Articles section, and really hope it keeps growing.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Jan 4, 2011)

I read and reread alot of the threads on this forum. Most know I breed aldabras and have hatched many. We allow our hatchlings to graze on natural grasses and weeds with no commercial foods or supplements and keep them outside in the pure Florida sunshine. All of our hatchlings have smooth growth from day one and continue to maintain that smooth consistant growth until they leave our environment. I have holdbacks from one to several years old and they have all always grown very smooth and healthy. I know of two ten year olds we hatched out in 2001 that are kept by a local couple in the same conditions and environment that we have and are very smooth and healthy. I have also seen many go the other direction and end up very pyramided because of a complete different enviroment and feeding conditions. Not being a scientist, I contribute ours growing so smooth as a total combination of the right food, humidity, hydration, environment, and natural sunshine.
I was one that also felt pyramiding was caused by high protein and lack of sunshine, however here in Florida humidity is naturally high and I never really gave it much consideration. I now think it is an influencing factor in the lack of pyramiding and promoting healthy natural growth in our species of tortoises, the aldabra. I am not willing to conduct an experiment on our hatchlings to determine if it is the lack of pure sunshine/diet or humidity/diet that will cause pyramiding. I think Tom's original thread and experiment has alot of merit and should inspire anyone that humidity is a factor in pryamiding and overall health, at least to some significant degree. Just an opinion/observation from a long time one species breeder.


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## Tom (Jan 4, 2011)

This has been a very good and very thought provoking thread. Learning proper husbandry can be very confusing especially given the different species and different environments that we all keep tortoises in. What is so obvious to me, here in the desert, is not so obvious to someone else in a different environment. What is so obvious to them in their environment is not so easy for me to grasp. I really enjoy, and learn a tremendous amount, from these discussions involving other species, kept other ways and in other parts of the country. All of it gives us pieces to the puzzle and we are gradually getting closer to solving it.

On that note, I had a great conversation with another forum member tonight about the desiccating effects of heat lamps and hot spots. He speculates, and I agree, that the hotter the spot and the drier the area, the more humidity/moisture/hydration you need to BALANCE this out. This goes even further to explain why such a tremendous excess of H/M/H works so well for me with my species in my area. Its is VERY dry here AND I use very hot basking spots. It should, in theory, take an inordinate amount of wetness (swampiness, if you will) to overcome that and grow a smooth tortoise. Well guess what. That IS exactly what it takes for me to grow one smooth. This coming spring's hatchling experiments will include a giant incubation chamber type set up and an ambient (warm) temp set up with only a humid hide box and relatively dry set-up, a la The Fife's and Bill Z.

I will either figure this out or die of old age trying!


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 4, 2011)

terryo said:


> Tom Wrote:
> Mark, I don't care for the headache example, but that doesn't matter. The rest of that post was GOLDEN. It helped me realize something about my continual disagreements with people on this subject. The reason that I think it is primarily humidity/moisture/hydration above all the other factors is that for the past 20 years I've mostly had all the other factors RIGHT, even though I always had this ONE very important factor WRONG. So, from my perspective it looks like H/M/H is the defining factor. I guess I just assume that everybody else know that they need a proper diet, proper temps, exercise, sunshine and supplementation. Maybe I give "them" too much credit. The only groundbreaking NEW info is the H/M/H. All the other stuff is old hat to me and I thought it was to the rest of the world too.
> 
> I totally agreeTom, but a new Tortoise keeper wouldn't know any of this. Three years ago when I first went to Terry K. asking for advice, he stressed the importance of good nutrition to me, along with humidity. He gave me a list of foods to feed Pio, with the highest in calcium coming first on the list. He also told me not to supplement with vitamins or calcium until he was 6 months old and to let him get his nutrition from his food. He told me to do everything in balance, but stressed that humidity was very important. Then Andy H. told me to add the UVB light, and told me that humidity was important, but didn't stress it as much as Terry K. Confusing isn't the word. So when trying to help a new keeper, you guys have to stress the importance of balance, and just not assume that we know what it's all about.



Thank you Terry.. I appreciate the fact that you mentioned that. 

Oddly enough 'some' of the info on humidity/diet did come from Highfield and is referenced on my caresheet..... however I learned mostly from Richard Fife. Guess why? His *hands-on* experience! Because he had been there personally! Also why I [ and others I've been told ] don't put much stock or confidence in those that base their knowledge on someone else's experience.

So when I say that the basics are basics ( my simple balanced caresheet ) and can be duplicated anywhere on the planet.. that means some may have to work harder at keeping the humidity, for example, "in balance" because of the particular environment they live in. Tom lives in an area where "you spit and it evaporates before it hits the ground" so he has to adjust accordingly. 

I had leopard tortoises in my back yard [ 8 years ago ] when the temps were in the low 90's and so was the humidity. They could tolerate the temps all of the time but not the humidity 24/7 - they are now outside Dallas and producing last I heard. I would have had to build a greenhouse for them.. running "dehumidifiers" that they could access at will - possible but not practical.

I spoke briefly with Kristina earlier and she said that all of the different parts are needed.. and it's the humidity that holds it all together.. to me she was saying it creates the balance.

Terry K


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## terryo (Jan 5, 2011)

*LOL! And isn't that sort of the big Catch 22? A forum is not really a good place to learn a subject from scratch- whether it is tortoise care or knitting. You can learn the key issues better in other places- dedicated sites, YouTube, etc.*

Mark, I have to disagree with you...how many times has a new keeper come on this forum, saying that they know nothing about their new tort that they just got? Look in the introduction sections. Then they will go through all the threads looking for information. I know that's what I did. I found Terry's site and looked through the forum for posts, also Shelled Worriers, TT, Tortoise Trust.....I joined lots of forums, asked questions, pm'd people..etc. That's how I got my information. I wanted to talk to people, not just read care sheets put out there. If I went on you tube, Pio would be dead.  Have you ever seen some of the stupid things about torts on there? Most care sheets that you look up are just outskirts. Then when you go into a forum, and talk with people that have experience, and read different threads that pertain to problems that people have had with their torts, you get much more first hand information. I think that's why it so important not to assume anything. I still consider myself a "newbe" when it comes to tortoise keeping, and I still look up different threads, especially if I see Pio or Solo doing something out of the ordinary. 
Tom is right when he says that climate and location has so much to do with it. I have some friends that lost their tortoise, even though they thought they did all the right things, but did not do any adjustments as per their location and climate.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 5, 2011)

Thank you again TerryO! I'll reply real short and _sweet_.. since you made the point so well.. BECAUSE you are experienced and yet pride doesn't get in your way of asking for help when you need it! 


It's real obvious [ to me and others I'm sure ] where Mark is coming from... if you seek scientific, "headache-producing" info. However from experience.. the ones that email me daily for help want simple, easy to understand results - that work and bring life to their redfoot and peace of mind to them! Isn't that where you were when Pio was a pup?.. and you came to me. I'll leave it at that................

Terry K


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## Yvonne G (Jan 5, 2011)

Greg: I raised my two Aldabs exactly like you...with natural grazing and the occational treat of leafy greens and veggies. The difference being, Florida is naturally humid, while I live in a valley similar to a desert with very dry air. My two are bumpy.


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## Candy (Jan 5, 2011)

ChiKat said:


> Candy said:
> 
> 
> > Did someone mention Killer Whales?  Oh yeah CGKeith did and here's your answer.
> ...



Oh no Katie  .....remember we are boycotting Sea World   Don't forget to pass that on to your mother and sister next time.  I'm glad to hear that you vented to them though. 

Madkins, what do you mean a forum is not the place to start? I started here and Dale, Ruby and Eddie are doing great.  I also have read a few books (don't tell Nerd that ) and have done some research from sites that have been mentioned here, maybe that's what you're trying to convey in your post.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 5, 2011)

Forgive me here folks.. but when you live where it's HOT and you want to be COOL you adjust [ turn on the AC ]! When you live where it's COLD and you want to be warm you turn on the HEAT. When you live where it's DRY and you want to be able to blink and breathe you use eye-drops and carry around a source of hydration.. you adjust to balance things.

Of course you have to be aware that balance is needed first.

When you live in Hawaii where it's 82 during the day and 74 at night [ whatever ] and the humidity is 50% (?).. you live in shorts with flowers hanging around your neck 24/7/365... and "balance" doesn't occur to you.

There has been a lot learned from this thread.. I hope...... thank you Tom! Whodathunk huh?

Terry K


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## Candy (Jan 5, 2011)

I'm sorry I thought it was "Balboa" who started this thread?


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 5, 2011)

Candy said:


> I'm sorry I thought it was "Balboa" who started this thread?



It was Candy.. I got left-handed in thanking others for their input on this whole topic of maintaining a balance to keep tortoises healthy and looking good.. as a result.

NERD


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## Madkins007 (Jan 5, 2011)

Terry, etc.-
I am not trying to say that the forums are not good info, but this is not a great place to offer a new keeper all the information about housing size and construction ideas, how much heat and how to accomplish it, diet plans and food lists, and the other information they need to get started ALL AT THE SAME TIME, in an organized way.

Even the 'sarcastic old fart' does not tell newbies everything they need to know here all at the same time- he sends them to his sites.

As for bad info on YouTube, etc.- that is indeed true, but by the same token, not every word on every tortoise site is golden either. There is bad info everywhere on every topic. If a newbie could sign onto a site- on any topic- and get good info the first time and every time, then all that searching and research you had to do for Pio would not have been necessary.

Please understand, I don't mean this as a bad thing- it is just the difference between something like a forum and something like an information site or book or something.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 5, 2011)

To add to what Mark has said, when a question is asked on the forum, the questioner, if a newbie, really doesn't know who is giving the answer. I've seen questions answered on here by people who's only knowledge of the subject is from what they've read, and not from personal experience with the tortoise type or the problem. Sometimes what you've read is really not the right answer.


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## terryo (Jan 5, 2011)

*If a newbie could sign onto a site- on any topic- and get good info the first time and every time, then all that searching and research you had to do for Pio would not have been necessary*

Very true Mark, but unfortunately most sites are just one man's opinion, and that is why I had to incorporate most things that I read when doing research. Every site that I have ever gone on gave different opinions on how to do things. Also, when Pio got shell rot, what site could I have gone on to find a good cure with step by step pictures how to cure it? And even a video? You know where I found that don't you? 
I still say for good information, go to a good forum,(like this one) ask questions, look up different threads, and you can find most all the information you need on almost any animal. 
BTW...still can't get on your site.



emysemys said:


> To add to what Mark has said, when a question is asked on the forum, the questioner, if a newbie, really doesn't know who is giving the answer. I've seen questions answered on here by people who's only knowledge of the subject is from what they've read, and not from personal experience with the tortoise type or the problem. Sometimes what you've read is really not the right answer.



Absolutely! 



BTW...just read a post that one of the so called Guru's posted on another forum.

*They can eat anything...

70 to 90F...

Humidity does not matter... a humid hide is benificial.

Housing... a large terrarium or tortoise table.

Substrate... Sand... soil/sand... mulch... anything actually.

Depending on the race...12 to 36+ inches SCL. *

Someone asked what the care of a Cherry Head was, and that was the answer given. So.......I'm going to have to take back some of what I said on a precious post. You can only get SOME good information on a forum, and if I was a new tortoise keeper I wouldn't know what to do next.


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