# what dog breeds can protect tortoises and take down coyote?



## enchilada (Nov 26, 2016)

any suggestions? i live in a typical urban area in southern california,
just saw a big fat coyote _, _Cruising Down the Street in the middle of the day 
and neighbors been complaining every night they Howling like this swirling storm inside, Couldn't keep it in;_


`````````````_
i need to get a dog strong enough to protect my torts and turtles. i currently have a Maltese , which is one of the favorite items on coyotes' dinner menu_

_


----------



## leigti (Nov 26, 2016)

What kind of outdoor enclosures do you have? Because whatever kind of dog you get to protect your tortoises will also be big and strong enough to kill your tortoises. A pack of coyotes can kill a good sized dog. How many coyotes are usually around there at one time? Electric fences and a 22 work well


----------



## Tortoise_Wrangler (Nov 26, 2016)

The problem with big dogs, no matter how good they are, dogs will be dogs, and a big dog can and most likely will wreck your Tortoises. I would never trust a dog of any size or temperament around my tortoises. My suggestion would be to build a secure enclosure that a coyote couldn't get into. I live in SoCal too, we have the same problem with urbanized Coyotes. Coyotes have not been an issue for me though, they seem to go after cats, opossums, rats and raccoons over my Tortoises. However, I'm the kind of guy that goes overkill with security and refuse the mind set of "It can't happen to me." because only idiots exist with that mindset. I have an enclosure my dogs can't get into, so neither can predators. In my experience with coyotes, the biggest dog can't do anything against a pack of desperate coyotes in the winter. My uncle had 6 big dogs, German Shepard/Pitbull mixes and they got attacked by a pack of over a dozen desperate coyotes one winter, he had to go out and shoot the coyotes, one of his dogs died in the attack and all of them were hurt pretty bad. They were tough dogs too. In my uncle's case, he lived in Wrightwood, and it was the worst part of winter. Here in urban SoCal we don't have to worry about that kind of thing considering there is always trash available. 

As I stated above, I go overkill. I have three mid sized dogs that do a great job at keeping predators away. I have a Shiba Inu/American Eskimo mix, a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever and a Basset Hound patrolling my property. I would suggest the Basset Hound, he broke into my enclosure and just chilled with my tortoises, I got lucky. I still don't allow him around my tortoises, he might have just been considering which tortoise he wanted for lunch, or maybe he wanted to be friends, either way I don't care, I keep them separate. The thing about my Basset, he has a loud thundering bark that you will hear very easily and they scare off the predators. They are naturally gentle, and mix that with the bark, I would recommend that breed for Tortoise protection. They're stubborn though, annoyingly so, and they're cowards. My Shiba is a thug, she'd step in front of a bear to protect me. What ever you choose, keep them separate from your Tortoises.


----------



## Tortoise_Wrangler (Nov 26, 2016)

leigti said:


> What kind of outdoor enclosures do you have? Because whatever kind of dog you get to protect your tortoises will also be big and strong enough to kill your tortoises. A pack of coyotes can kill a good sized dog. How many coyotes are usually around there at one time? Electric fences and a 22 work well



I rock a .22 Bolt Action Long Rifle for predators, great gun. I got a .45 1911 for home invaders.


----------



## Big Charlie (Nov 26, 2016)

We used to have a golden retriever. The coyotes travel in packs and they would try to lure my dog out. Even though he was a big dog, he would have lost in a fight against an entire pack. He never bothered my tortoise at all.


----------



## Speedy-1 (Nov 26, 2016)

*Well a Dobie would take care of your coyote's , but no promises for you and / or your Torts ! *


----------



## leigti (Nov 26, 2016)

So it sounds like you need a good perimeter fence, enclosures that dogs and coyotes can't get into, good size dog to make some noise, and if all else fails you locked boxes you can put your tortoise in at night that are even more secure. 
I love the idea of a basset hound  I've always wanted one of those dogs. But they are hound dogs and they have their own ideas of what needs to be done. My dad uses two great Pyrenees to guard his alpaca. But your neighbors will hate you, his are pretty much silence all day and then in the evening and night when the predators come out they seem not to shut up. And they prefer to bond and mingle with what they are protecting, and I don't think a tortoise is fluffy enough for them


----------



## Tortoise_Wrangler (Nov 26, 2016)

The one on the left is Sami, the Shiba/Eskimo mix, I found her in a dumpster near death, best dog I've ever had. The one in the middle is Scout, she is throwback Toller. Toller's are normally red and very expensive, her brindle coloring makes her worthless, I got a $2000 dog for free. Got her through a rescue. Oliver is the one on the right, obviously a Basset Hound and he entered my life when I met my wife. All good dogs, but Scout is kind of an idiot and Sami, though she's obedient and loyal, is aggressive and runs the pack as my Beta. This pack protects my Tortoises, Scout also chewed up two of them and broke into my old enclosure, so don't ever trust any dog with your tortoises. The Torts lived with minimal injury, luckily.


----------



## Big Ol Tortoise (Nov 26, 2016)

DONKEYS!


----------



## leigti (Nov 26, 2016)

Big Ol Tortoise said:


> DONKEYS!


Hey, that's a great idea  a friend of mine has a couple miniature donkeys, one of them has actually killed an adult mountain lion.


----------



## bouaboua (Nov 26, 2016)

Big Ol Tortoise said:


> DONKEYS!


Ohhhhh～～

Love to see his backyard with one of this~ ~ ~Hahahaha!!


----------



## Tortoise_Wrangler (Nov 26, 2016)

leigti said:


> Hey, that's a great idea  a friend of mine has a couple miniature donkeys, one of them has actually killed an adult mountain lion.



I lived on a ranch on the weekends with my dad and his cattle company partners as a very young child, they used donkeys as security for predators and people. Never saw it in action myself but I would pay good money to see a miniature donkey kill a mountain lion. I saw a local news report about 3 Chihuahuas cornering a mountain lion while their master's young child was in the yard only a few feet away. Trapped it in a shed and yapped at it until animal control arrived, can't remember accurately because it was when I was in my early teens but I think they held it a bay until animal control could arrive to tranquilize it. Mountain Lions are stalkers, they're nothing to be scoffed at in a toe to toe throw down either, but their nature isn't toe to toe. Bears are toe to toe, so an intelligent animal like a donkey catching a stalker off guard in a toe to toe fight is believable to me. You gotta share more detail on this story.


----------



## enchilada (Nov 26, 2016)

how about this badass mf( since they are vegetarian, they aint gonna hurt tortoises right?)


----------



## Tom (Nov 26, 2016)

A dog in your yard would be far more of a threat to your tortoises than a coyote. I see coyotes on a daily basis out here and they have never attempted to mess with my tortoises in 20+ years. There are many ways a goose could also hurt your tortoise, so that is not a good idea either, plus a coyote pack would make short work of a goose.

Just lock your tortoises up at night and you won't have a problem.


----------



## leigti (Nov 26, 2016)

Tom said:


> A dog in your yard would be far more of a threat to your tortoises than a coyote. I see coyotes on a daily basis out here and they have never attempted to mess with my tortoises in 20+ years. There are many ways a goose could also hurt your tortoise, so that is not a good idea either, plus a coyote pack would make short work of a goose.
> 
> Just lock your tortoises up at night and you won't have a problem.


Darn it @Tom, we were just starting to have fun thinking of all the different ideas. Practicality is getting farther and farther away from us. Let us have some fun


----------



## leigti (Nov 26, 2016)

I don't really know any details about the donkey, the guy used two of them. They were pretty darn small. He had them on a sheep Ranch out in the middle of nowhere. It was the female that actually got the lion. Is a female donkey called and Jenny? Heck I don't know my grandpa had mules not donkeys.


----------



## leigti (Nov 27, 2016)

Tortoise_Wrangler said:


> I lived on a ranch on the weekends with my dad and his cattle company partners as a very young child, they used donkeys as security for predators and people. Never saw it in action myself but I would pay good money to see a miniature donkey kill a mountain lion. I saw a local news report about 3 Chihuahuas cornering a mountain lion while their master's young child was in the yard only a few feet away. Trapped it in a shed and yapped at it until animal control arrived, can't remember accurately because it was when I was in my early teens but I think they held it a bay until animal control could arrive to tranquilize it. Mountain Lions are stalkers, they're nothing to be scoffed at in a toe to toe throw down either, but their nature isn't toe to toe. Bears are toe to toe, so an intelligent animal like a donkey catching a stalker off guard in a toe to toe fight is believable to me. You gotta share more detail on this story.


Are you sure the mountain lion wasn't just too busy laughing to do anything else?


----------



## Tom (Nov 27, 2016)

leigti said:


> Are you sure the mountain lion wasn't just too busy laughing to do anything else?



We have a regular sized donkey. It tries to stomp and kill anything that gets in its enclosure. Pigeons, chickens, anything canine, etc… They are good "watch dogs". I hear of them killing coyotes once in a while out here, but I think most coyotes know to steer clear of them.


----------



## mark1 (Nov 27, 2016)

you can teach a dog to respect boundaries ....... mine know not to go into the turtle pens ..... they have protected and killed many threats to my turtle , forever ..... I've seen them surround a raccoon in a pen , they know not to jump the fence , but whatever they trap in a pen has a slim to none chance of getting out the yard safely ......... a coyote will not fight a dog out of anything but defense , unless you got a greyhound I doubt they could catch a healthy coyote , I know mine couldn't .........


----------



## Tom (Nov 27, 2016)

mark1 said:


> you can teach a dog to respect boundaries ....... mine know not to go into the turtle pens ..... they have protected and killed many threats to my turtle , forever ..... I've seen them surround a raccoon in a pen , they know not to jump the fence , but whatever they trap in a pen has a slim to none chance of getting out the yard safely ......... a coyote will not fight a dog out of anything but defense , unless you got a greyhound I doubt they could catch a healthy coyote , I know mine couldn't .........



Out here, there are some people who use pit bulls for coyote control. One pittie will destroy an entire coyote pack in minutes. I'm told the sound is god-awful.

I can also tell you that malinois have no problem catching up to coyotes on the run either, although they had no intention of doing any harm.


----------



## mark1 (Nov 27, 2016)

I've had many gamebred pits , I don't doubt a wolf wouldn't stand a chance let alone a coyote , a dog fighting defensively is at a huge disadvantage ......... I think most any rough dogs would kill a coyote , I don't doubt a fast malinois might be capable of catching a coyote , but not many dogs I've seen aside from greyhounds can hit 40mph





........


----------



## jinete (Nov 27, 2016)

Just saw coyotes running around the neighborhood the other night. I'm in the Huntington Beach, CA area. Following this thread.


----------



## Speedy-1 (Nov 28, 2016)

*Seriously though , we have coyote's all over out here . They are an indigenous species that is thriving , but they have never presented a threat ! I have parrots that go out daily as the weather permits Speedy has been outside almost daily since he was about a yearling, or a bit earlier , and they have never posed a threat to any of them ! The birds come inside , and Speedy is secure in his night box ! Frankly I am more concerned with my garbage cans being tipped over than any harm coming to my pets ! *


----------



## Clawem (Nov 28, 2016)

We also have coyotes here and never had a problem with them eating any of my livestock. I think all the coyote hype is made up by the media. In NY city they just killed a few because they were eating feral cats. Coyotes are an indigenous species cats are not. We spend millions trying to get rid of non native species in this country only when it suits our needs.Cats kill billions of native birds every year but that is fine because they are cute. You have more of a chance that your dog will harm your tortoise then a coyote.


----------



## Tom (Nov 28, 2016)

Clawem said:


> I think all the coyote hype is made up by the media.



No, its not hype. Some percentage of them get very desensitized and unafraid of humans and our pets. These individual coyotes are truly dangerous to kids and pets and need to be terminated.

Also don't forget that there are unnaturally large numbers of them in and around urban areas because of all the free and easy food, clean water sources and the lack of competition and larger predators. Its a comfy living for them, and they take advantage. Ravens too.

I'm all for leaving wildlife alone, but wildlife needs to stay out of the human habitation areas to avoid issues. We have coyotes here in my area that eat our chickens, goats, and anything else they can get a hold of. The coyotes that stay away and live out in the hills live a long healthy life and are admired and respected. The coyotes that come in and steal our pets and other animals and hang around close to us are shot on sight. This is the reason why they are a problem in NYC, but not here in the hills near me. When they live in urban areas where no one can walk around with a gun, much less shoot one, coyotes run rampant and they get bold and potentially dangerous. Out here on the edge of civilization their numbers are controlled and their healthy fear and respect of humans keeps them alive and well. I walk around out in the wilderness all the time here. When I see a coyote from 100+ yards away, they bolt, or I just don't even see them because they hear/smell/sense me coming from a mile away. That is how it should be. When they walk right up to people just a few feet away, you have a serious problem that needs to be dealt with.

The OP lives in a populated city, and I'll bet that the ones near him are pretty desensitized and unafraid of humans. He's right to be concerned about his tortoises.


----------



## enchilada (Nov 28, 2016)

Tom said:


> No, its not hype. Some percentage of them get very desensitized and unafraid of humans and our pets. These individual coyotes are truly dangerous to kids and pets and need to be terminated.
> 
> Also don't forget that there are unnaturally large numbers of them in and around urban areas because of all the free and easy food, clean water sources and the lack of competition and larger predators. Its a comfy living for them, and they take advantage. Ravens too.
> 
> ...



yep. http://www.ocregister.com/articles/coyote-731966-boy-hughan.html

this happened only 5 min away from where i live


----------



## Big Charlie (Nov 29, 2016)

enchilada said:


> yep. http://www.ocregister.com/articles/coyote-731966-boy-hughan.html
> 
> this happened only 5 min away from where i live


That is very scary. I've never seen a coyote where I live. We used to live in the country. There were coyotes but they were shy, and also emaciated. Now we live where there are lots of cows. I think the ranchers probably are shooting them if they get near the cattle. About a year ago, something was killing the neighborhood cats. I don't think they ever figured out what it was, but I don't think anyone thought it was a coyote.


----------



## Tom (Nov 29, 2016)

Big Charlie said:


> About a year ago, something was killing the neighborhood cats. I don't think they ever figured out what it was, but I don't think anyone thought it was a coyote.



It was most likely coyotes, but could also have been a great horned owl, or a person. Just guessing.


----------



## Big Ol Tortoise (Nov 30, 2016)

Something I'd also be scared of is raccoons :/


----------



## Kaliman1962 (Nov 30, 2016)

I have a Bullmastiff, he & the sulcata got along, no problem, one day, the dog grabbed the tortosie out of his pen & killed him. very sad
now, the dog is never alone with him, & now can't get in the pen, so just be careful


----------



## wellington (Nov 30, 2016)

Not


Speedy-1 said:


> *Well a Dobie would take care of your coyote's , but no promises for you and / or your Torts ! *


 a pack of them, the dob would still lose!


----------



## wellington (Nov 30, 2016)

Tom said:


> No, its not hype. Some percentage of them get very desensitized and unafraid of humans and our pets. These individual coyotes are truly dangerous to kids and pets and need to be terminated.
> 
> Also don't forget that there are unnaturally large numbers of them in and around urban areas because of all the free and easy food, clean water sources and the lack of competition and larger predators. Its a comfy living for them, and they take advantage. Ravens too.
> 
> ...


I doubt the OP has to worry. We have them in the city of Chicago. Purposely put here to control rats. Been here for quite a few years now. They have yet to bother anyone in the city. They are bold, but still run from humans. Food is plentiful, no need for them to over work themselves chasing and killing dogs, cats, or even the rats they were brought in for. I think they are less of a threat then you might think. Urban areas have lots of food sources that is much easier to get then hunting for it.


----------



## Speedy-1 (Nov 30, 2016)

wellington said:


> Not
> 
> a pack of them, the dob would still lose!


 
*Not to argue , but considering the Doberman Pinschers I have bred , and obedience trained all this statement tells me is ;
A. How little you know about the breed .
B. How little you know about coyote's . Nuff said !! *


----------



## Tom (Nov 30, 2016)

wellington said:


> I doubt the OP has to worry. We have them in the city of Chicago. Purposely put here to control rats. Been here for quite a few years now. They have yet to bother anyone in the city. They are bold, but still run from humans. Food is plentiful, no need for them to over work themselves chasing and killing dogs, cats, or even the rats they were brought in for. I think they are less of a threat then you might think. Urban areas have lots of food sources that is much easier to get then hunting for it.



Most of the time they are harmless, but there are notable exceptions, like the ones in the link from enchilada that were 5 minutes from his house. I've seen hundreds of harmless coyotes, but I've also seen a few exceptions.


----------



## Tom (Nov 30, 2016)

Speedy-1 said:


> *Not to argue , but considering the Doberman Pinschers I have bred , and obedience trained all this statement tells me is ;
> A. How little you know about the breed .
> B. How little you know about coyote's . Nuff said !! *



I don't think a dobie, or any other breed, except maybe a pit bull, could fight off a pack of coyotes that were on the hunt.

Luckily, most of the time coyotes don't want to try a big dog, but I know of several large dogs, like shepards, that were killed by coyotes out here.


----------



## wellington (Nov 30, 2016)

Tom said:


> Most of the time they are harmless, but there are notable exceptions, like the ones in the link from enchilada that were 5 minutes from his house. I've seen hundreds of harmless coyotes, but I've also seen a few exceptions.


There are always exceptions in any situation. I think he has less to worry about then those living further into coyotes territory. Specially seeing killing them is being tossed around. In the urban city settings, where garbage is plentiful, I don't think the site of one is a threat.


----------



## wellington (Nov 30, 2016)

Speedy-1 said:


> *Not to argue , but considering the Doberman Pinschers I have bred , and obedience trained all this statement tells me is ;
> A. How little you know about the breed .
> B. How little you know about coyote's . Nuff said !! *


Whatever. One dog, pack of coyotes. I would bet a million on that one, except I would never put a dog in that situation. I get you love your breed.


----------



## Speedy-1 (Nov 30, 2016)

Tom said:


> I don't think a dobie, or any other breed, except maybe a pit bull, could fight off a pack of coyotes that were on the hunt.
> 
> Luckily, most of the time coyotes don't want to try a big dog, but I know of several large dogs, like shepards, that were killed by coyotes out here.


 *Even though it is pure conjecture , I would probably agree that a pit bull would have the edge simply because fighting is what they have been bred and trained for .
What mystifies me is the concept of these scruffy little varmints (coyotes) being portrayed as being as vicious as a pack of wolves. As I am sure you are well aware , their main sustenance is bugs , rodents and other vermin . We also have many instances of them killing chickens and other livestock , which is promptly dealt with by use of a 22 long rifle . I don't know , perhaps California coyotes are bigger and more vicious than Arizona coyotes ?
I actually put my original post up as sort of a joke because the idea of buying a dog to protect you from coyotes just sounds silly to me !*


----------



## Tom (Nov 30, 2016)

Speedy-1 said:


> *Even though it is pure conjecture , I would probably agree that a pit bull would have the edge simply because fighting is what they have been bred and trained for .
> What mystifies me is the concept of these scruffy little varmints (coyotes) being portrayed as being as vicious as a pack of wolves. As I am sure you are well aware , their main sustenance is bugs , rodents and other vermin . We also have many instances of them killing chickens and other livestock , which is promptly dealt with by use of a 22 long rifle . I don't know , perhaps California coyotes are bigger and more vicious than Arizona coyotes ?
> I actually put my original post up as sort of a joke because the idea of buying a dog to protect you from coyotes just sounds silly to me !*



Yes. Pure conjecture. A pit bull would win for sure one-on-one, but against a whole pack that was actively hunting… I don't know...


----------



## Tom (Nov 30, 2016)

wellington said:


> There are always exceptions in any situation. I think he has less to worry about then those living further into coyotes territory. Specially seeing killing them is being tossed around. In the urban city settings, where garbage is plentiful, I don't think the site of one is a threat.



I can understand why a person would think that, but reality is the opposite. It is more often the urban coyotes in the cities that get themselves into trouble. Seldom does anyone in a rural area have trouble with them, because they get shot if people even see them at a distance.

I don't know how it works in other parts of the country, but we have coyote "incidents" on the news here regularly and I don't think enchilada's concerns are unfounded. Having a dog is not the solution in my opinion, but one of these "domestic" coyotes could very well pose a threat to a tortoise outside at night.


----------



## Speedy-1 (Nov 30, 2016)

*I just went back and read the original post. It seems we have gone from "I saw a big fat coyote" to "What kind of dog can beat a pack of coyotes" ? At least they aren't a pack of vicious , rabid , coyotes YET ! But I am sure we can get there with just a tad more imagination !!!! *


----------



## wellington (Nov 30, 2016)

Tom said:


> I can understand why a person would think that, but reality is the opposite. It is more often the urban coyotes in the cities that get themselves into trouble. Seldom does anyone in a rural area have trouble with them, because they get shot if people even see them at a distance.
> 
> I don't know how it works in other parts of the country, but we have coyote "incidents" on the news here regularly and I don't think enchilada's concerns are unfounded. Having a dog is not the solution in my opinion, but one of these "domestic" coyotes could very well pose a threat to a tortoise outside at night.


Chicago city coyotes are just nicer, like its humans No, a single dog is not the solution. Killing the coyotes is not the solution. Putting the torts up at night in a safe enclosure is the solution.


----------



## Tom (Nov 30, 2016)

wellington said:


> Putting the torts up at night in a safe enclosure is the solution.



Agreed.


----------



## Neal (Nov 30, 2016)

enchilada said:


> any suggestions? i live in a typical urban area in southern california,
> just saw a big fat coyote _, _Cruising Down the Street in the middle of the day
> and neighbors been complaining every night they Howling like this swirling storm inside, Couldn't keep it in;
> _
> ...



Nobody has pointed out the Frozen reference. With two young daughters, I feel it is my obligation to acknowledge how cleverly you inserted the reference into your post. 

I don't have much experience with dogs, so I can't help you out much there. I would recommend something infected with the T or G Virus. Tom could point you in the right direction.


----------



## Kaliman1962 (Nov 30, 2016)

wellington said:


> I doubt the OP has to worry. We have them in the city of Chicago. Purposely put here to control rats. Been here for quite a few years now. They have yet to bother anyone in the city. They are bold, but still run from humans. Food is plentiful, no need for them to over work themselves chasing and killing dogs, cats, or even the rats they were brought in for. I think they are less of a threat then you might think. Urban areas have lots of food sources that is much easier to get then hunting for it.


I'm in northern suburbs


----------



## mark1 (Dec 1, 2016)

enchilada said:


> i need to get a dog strong enough to protect my torts and turtles. i currently have a Maltese , which is one of the favorite items on coyotes' dinner menu



there are a lot of coyotes around me , it's an urban area with a huge park system running through it . the only complaints i've ever heard around here was people losing their outside cats , and an occasional small dog being taken , one time i remember one lady got herself bitten somehow , i have to think a mom with pups nearby........ i don't know about one dog , i've never had one dog , but i can tell you a pack of 3-5 is absolutely the best solution to guarding anything from predators , even people .......... i've seen my dogs attack stuff i sure wouldn't without a moments hesitation .......... as far as protecting your maltese , i have no doubt a big drivey breed of dog would definitely keep him or her safe .......


----------



## jinete (Dec 1, 2016)

Tom said:


> I can understand why a person would think that, but reality is the opposite. It is more often the urban coyotes in the cities that get themselves into trouble. Seldom does anyone in a rural area have trouble with them, because they get shot if people even see them at a distance.
> 
> I don't know how it works in other parts of the country, but we have coyote "incidents" on the news here regularly and I don't think enchilada's concerns are unfounded. Having a dog is not the solution in my opinion, but one of these "domestic" coyotes could very well pose a threat to a tortoise outside at night.


Just read yesterday in our neighborhood newspaper that a teen that turned around to run from a coyote here in Orange County, CA was attacked. Usually they are just getting into trashcans but lately been hearing more and more of attacks on neighborhood pets and now a person. Craziness. Hope everyone's tortoises stay safe.


----------

