# Terrible...IMO



## jtrux (Nov 19, 2012)

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=358165

Really??

Personally, i'd euthanize them. I'm sure they are more than likely the product of severe imbreeding in an attempt to coax out unique and interesting color morphs but to try and keep these and sell them on top of that, i'm not feeling it. 

If you're a member here, no offense, but imo it's a bad way to make a buck.


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## EricIvins (Nov 19, 2012)

They are merely a product of numbers, not inbreeding.......Farms produce these animals every year......


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## Yvonne G (Nov 19, 2012)

The "making a buck" part doesn't bother me...its the fact that they actually try to breed the mutations that bothers me. Did you notice that they also have split/double scutes? My GUESS is that they have the incubator almost on "cook" to get the mutations.


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## Yellow Turtle (Nov 19, 2012)

Geez, I got really annoyed to see those pictures of RES for sell, then I see at below page, similar threads with even more annoying figures and the seller gave the tittle "undead". I do hope Eric is correct, as I've read article of one company breeding maybe like hundreds or thousands of RES, and those so called mutated RES are just by products... But then the seller got like 4 RES and all without eyes. Can similar state by products happen at the same time like that? It's just too much coincidence...


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## kanalomele (Nov 19, 2012)

I agree with much of what is being said here. If these animals were incubated purposefully for such genetic imperfections I absolutely do not approve of that. Nor do I like that one of the most overproduced species is still being mass produced. Mass production of any species is more likely to produce a larger than average pool of genetically challenged individuals. I do however like that this seller is stating that these animals not be purchased as pets or breeders.


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## yagyujubei (Nov 19, 2012)

I look at it this way. They're alive, and if someone wants to put forth the extra care needed, what's the problem. Do you also think that blind or deformed human babies should be killed as well?I read an article years ago by a red eared breeder that got a two headed hatchling about every thousand babies.


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## dannel (Nov 19, 2012)

yagyujubei said:


> I look at it this way. They're alive, and if someone wants to put forth the extra care needed, what's the problem. Do you also think that blind or deformed human babies should be killed as well?I read an article years ago by a red eared breeder that got a two headed hatchling about every thousand babies.



Its not the fact that its a coincidence. Some people do this on purpose.


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## Baoh (Nov 19, 2012)

I am not sure farms actually do it on purpose, as it would risk yields, and a farming operation's main business should be directly tied to yields. I think mistakes and hot spots occur and the clown/pastel/deformed stuff just pops out here and there via that and sheer numbers (because you will have some frequency of developmental errors regardless of incubation conditions). Genetic flukes also would happen thanks to numbers, but they would be expected to be far lower in frequency. I see no evidence showing most of these to be genetic. If these are induced by incubation, they are developmental errors and not genetic errors. If they are genomic errors, they are not caused by incubation.

I know a number of morph sellers who pick up oddities for cheap from farms.


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## dmmj (Nov 19, 2012)

The main problem I have is they will try and sell it as a rare genetic quirk, I don't have a problem with them selling them, unless they are breeding on purpose. About 6 years or so ago, there was an online turtle place that claimed they were breeding blind RES and then trying to sell them for like 1000 dollars.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Nov 19, 2012)

kanalomele said:


> If these animals were incubated purposefully for such genetic imperfections I absolutely do not approve of that.



You are in luck, incubation for a genetic result, in that what genes the offspring have, is not possible. Incubation can be used to alter or foster anomalies or gender, but not change the genetics.

And then even if 100,000 eggs are incubated for highest hatch rate possible, some will be odd. Some odd for a result that may be good, some odd for a result that may be bad - where good and bad are determined by adaptation to a changing environment. 

So blind is bad in any but a captive environment or a cave (blind salamanders, crayfish, fish etc.)

I read here that at least one sulcata breeder euthanizes such anomalies, which I would tend to agree with. Color anomalies can be interesting and bring positive attention to all herps with those people who don't like reptiles, but blind just gets a pity vote, I would think.

Will


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## laney (Nov 19, 2012)

I think it is sick that their blindness is used as a selling point, IMO they should be given to someone or somewhere really experienced that could give them the best quality of life possible


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## Yellow Turtle (Nov 19, 2012)

yagyujubei said:


> I look at it this way. They're alive, and if someone wants to put forth the extra care needed, what's the problem. Do you also think that blind or deformed human babies should be killed as well?I read an article years ago by a red eared breeder that got a two headed hatchling about every thousand babies.



I fully agree if there are people who feel sorry for these breeds and would like to give special care for them. With their size, I don't really opt for euthanize.

I just feel that it is pretty annoying to have a selling thread such as "THREE BLIND SLIDERS....See how they swim!"? So how you expect a blind turtles to swim?

Or this other thread tittle, "MUTATIONS - UNDEAD GROUP?"? Well, it's an interesting tittle for marketing purpose, but then as you would compare it to deformed human babies, will you agree to parents putting advertisement on internet such as: "My UNDEAD BABIES in needs of DONATION, HELP???".


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## CourtneyAndCarl (Nov 19, 2012)

I think this guy breeds them for ridiculous color mutations and I'm sure these issues arise from it. If you look at his other posts there, all the RES he is selling look awful.


His latest post is an "adult two headed red eared slider". The poor thing is supposedly 8 years old and only 3 inches long or so.


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## Baoh (Nov 19, 2012)

CourtneyAndCarl said:


> I think this guy breeds them for ridiculous color mutations and I'm sure these issues arise from it. If you look at his other posts there, all the RES he is selling look awful.
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> His latest post is an "adult two headed red eared slider". The poor thing is supposedly 8 years old and only 3 inches long or so.





I do not know which color mutations are ridiculous, but breeding for them does not cause deformity.


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## CourtneyAndCarl (Nov 19, 2012)

Baoh said:


> CourtneyAndCarl said:
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> > I think this guy breeds them for ridiculous color mutations and I'm sure these issues arise from it. If you look at his other posts there, all the RES he is selling look awful.
> ...





he bred for "belly button" red eared sliders, they have something wrong with the scutes on the back.


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## Baoh (Nov 19, 2012)

CourtneyAndCarl said:


> Baoh said:
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There can be a vast difference between what a seller said and what a seller did.


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## CourtneyAndCarl (Nov 19, 2012)

Baoh said:


> CourtneyAndCarl said:
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So... even if it was an accident, he is trying to make it sound like he did it on purpose, AKA that it is something "cool" that takes special breeding.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Nov 19, 2012)

Just my input here after reading everyone's posts, if a breeder is practicing poor husbandry to produce abnormalities, then we can all say so to our friends in regards to recommendations for said animals. Everyone hears about the â€œlemon" breeders, so here is my shout out to one of the â€œpeach" breeders, Tom the Dog Trainer. He breeds for the sake of the animal. 
If no one buys from the crappy breeders, they go away.


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## Baoh (Nov 20, 2012)

CourtneyAndCarl said:


> Baoh said:
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The "belly button" animals appear to be due to an embryonic cellular migration error. A pocket of cells already on a specific path for differentiation likely shifted and settled in error. It could have also been a signalling error, but that is less likely because there are many cells which would have had to miscommunicate, so parsimony would put my leaning to the migration error.

I have had a conversation regarding one of his other offerings and I did not appreciate what was claimed for the animals I discussed. I am quite sure the aberrant animals he offered were not produced by him. He is, in a sense, marketing his wares, although that is being done with hints, suggestions, and some ambiguities to try to convince prospective buyers that they are of greater rarity or, more to the point, value than they might really be. So yes, he may be claiming or suggesting such, but he is just picking up mis-stamped coins and trying to get top dollar for them. Some people pay more for mis-stamped coins.

The animals would exist (hatch) with or without him, as he was not the producer. The farm was (and most likely not purposefully for business reasons already mentioned). Some of these animals die early and some can live full lives. He is simply trying to maximize his return, which I have no problem with. What I do dislike is the charade surrounding the claims of these things being bred for or being some kind of new genetic morph, as that is likely false and I do not agree with misleading claims when posting details of an advertisement, as the buyer is then not getting what he or she thinks he or she is getting. Calling something genetic or insinuating it is when such is not the case is a lie to the customer.


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## EricIvins (Nov 20, 2012)

PEOPLE!!!!!!!! These animals come from farms that produce hundereds of thousands of hatchlings EVER YEAR!!!!!!

These are not bred FOR ANYTHING! They pop up just from the sheer number of hatchlings produced! IT happens, so why is it so hard for everyone to comprehend? Some are genetic, some are congential, but this is nothing new!


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## BowandWalter (Nov 20, 2012)

At least he isn't just killing them, and is trying to find them appropriate homes. He even says "not BREEDERS or PETS", it could be worse, he could sell them to pretty much anyone if he wanted, instead he's trying to find decent homes, with people who understand the disability.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Nov 20, 2012)

He could give them to good homes. If he â€œcared" about the animals he might do that. As for â€œnot for breeders" short of sterilization, how would he control what I were to do with the animal.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Nov 21, 2012)

http://turtlefarms.com/

The magnitude of a commercial farm, it would seem, will blow many of you away.

Every state has an agricultural extension service, usually administered through a land grant university, or the state university system. In Louisiana it is considered an agricultural crop, "it" being turtles.

Will


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## morloch (Nov 24, 2012)

I have only one word for this,,,,CRUEL!!


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