# Any indoor sulcata keeperes here?



## Addicted (Feb 14, 2009)

I am receiving a 6yo sulcata tomorrow and i have to make a temporary enclosure for it today.I'm just going to make the biggest box i can with the wood i have lying around here.When my new herp room is completed in a week or tw i am going to make him a nice big area.

When the weather permits i also would like to make an outdoor pen for him.

Any pics of indoor sulcata enclosures would be nice if anyone has any.

Jason.


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## Maggie Cummings (Feb 14, 2009)

Jason, I posted on the AT list that we need to know how big the tort is and how you expect to house him. He will need a warming light, a hide some substrate and a basking light. The warming light can be a black light bulb, the basking can be a 100 watt incandescent bulb, the hide can be any sort of a cave, a plant pot with a door cut in it would work. Here's a couple of links to care sheets for you to read. They should help you and answer most of your questions...

http://africantortoise.com/

http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/sulcatacare.htm


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## Yvonne G (Feb 14, 2009)

The bigger the better. Depending upon what the tortoise is used to living in, you should not make your habitat smaller than where he came from. They need lots of room and if your habitat is too small he'll spend the whole day trying to climb and bump and bash the walls. At 6 years old I'd say he's around 10lbs, huh? You won't be able to keep him in anything like a horse trough, he'll need something bigger. Most people with sulcatas who live in areas where the weather is too cold for the tortoise, keep them in heated sheds. A large place where the tortoise can walk around. Its not going to be easy to keep a sulcata indoors. You're going to have to be pretty creative.

Yvonne


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## Addicted (Feb 14, 2009)

Thanks for the info,I think keeping it in a shed is not the best way for me,once ni get this new herp room completed I'm setting something up in there for him.The room is 19 feet by 13 feet with two smaller rooms in back.Once i get my snake and lizard caging in there and the room is completed i can work on something.

I would guess the tort is around 20-30 pounds.


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## Yvonne G (Feb 14, 2009)

You're going to have a real problem keeping a 20lb sulcata happy indoors. My only suggestion is to get your room finished ASAP, because trying to keep him boxed is asking for trouble. I used to take my sulcata on field trips, to reptile shows and school demonstrations, etc. He was around 35lbs at that time. He was used to living outside and having a whole yard to roam in (even in the winter), and when I put him into the little (10'x15') wooden pen for the shows he was VERY unhappy. Kept ramming the walls and trying to climb the walls. He eventually knocked out one side, screws, hinges and all. That was when I realized I had to quit taking him on field trips. The kids enjoyed it, but the tortoise had a very hard time being penned up.

Yvonne


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## Addicted (Feb 14, 2009)

I think he will deal with inside housing for winter alright.I just built a temporary box for him That's 4' X 5' which is bigger than what he is in now at the persons house That's giving it to me.He does not cause a problem for them in that little space right now so i would imagine he will like the new larger space i give him now.

I do realize 4' X 5' is very small but It's just temporary for a few weeks,and It's bigger that what he lives in now so it will actually be an upgrade for him when they drop him off tomorrow.I will take some pics when i get him set up in the temp cage.

Jason.


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## Crazy1 (Feb 14, 2009)

Jason, welcome to the forum. I know you said he would only be in the small area a week or so. Do you have a way for him to get outside? Also you didn't say were you are located.


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## Maggie Cummings (Feb 14, 2009)

So am I understanding you are building him a wooden box that is 4 ft square and then you are keeping that box in that room? Then you're putting the tortoise in the box and he will have substrate and lights and hides? And all this is happening tomorrow? Are you going to be able to keep him warm in there?
I feel really awful for this tortoise who has been treated so badly. I really do want to help you set him up decently for the rest of the winter so please do stay in touch and post the pictures after you get the tort...it sounds like you really do want to help him so let us help you help him...



Crazy1 said:


> Jason, welcome to the forum. I know you said he would only be in the small area a week or so. Do you have a way for him to get outside? Also you didn't say were you are located.



I thought he said he was in Massachusetts


Man, I really screwed that whole thing up, but I sure don't know how...Anyhow Jason, what I was trying very badly to say is it does sound like you want to do right by this tortoise who has already been mistreated, so please stay in touch and post the pictures when you can...


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## Crazy1 (Feb 14, 2009)

Thanks Maggie I missed that I also missed the part about wanting to build him an outside pen later when the weather is better, so I think I will stop now while I'm ahead. 
Jason, I defer to Maggie and Yvonne since I obviously misread part of your post-sorry.


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## Addicted (Feb 14, 2009)

This is what i made as a temp cage for a few weeks,if you have not realized this will be far better than what the tort was housed in before.I know these animals require lots of space but i am going to offer as much as i can now.As soon as possible there will be a big cage.






I will be putting hay as a substrate and lighting in tomorrow.

Jason


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## Maggie Cummings (Feb 14, 2009)

I sure wish it could be a little bigger, that's really small for a 20 pound animal. But you'll take him out to run around some won't you? Hay is not a good substrate for Sulcata as he needs a humid atmosphere. Can't you make that just a little bigger? Or can't you set up his hide and lights in that box but leave one side open so he can walk around that empty room? Sulcata are very smart and it won't take him any time at all to realize where to sleep at night if you have a hide in there with the basking light and his UVB lights.See where I'm going with that? Is there any reason he can't have the run of that room? You can pick up anything he'd try to put in his mouth. Heck, I think that's a great idea, then he'd go under the light to warm up and to sleep and he'd have the run of the place for exercise...just a thought...


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## nrfitchett4 (Feb 15, 2009)

The breeder I got my sulcata baby from used hay for the substrate of all his torts. But they also got lots of outdoor time in the DFW area. They have a cool tort house in the back yard that looks like a wild west stage front. 
Good luck with setup, seems like you are doing the best you can.


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## Maggie Cummings (Feb 15, 2009)

I know that some people use hay as a substrate. But hay molds and you can't have a damp substrate if it's hay. So just because you know a breeder who uses hay as a substrate doesn't make it right, his ethics are questionable anyway if he is breeding Sulcata. Humidity is imperative to prevent pyramiding and you can't create humidity if hay is the substrate.


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## Addicted (Feb 15, 2009)

I like the idea of him being able to roam in the room but I'm almost done with the new herp room so I'm waiting for that.I painted the new room today and in a little while I'm putting down the carpet,so the room should be ready in a few days.Once things are done in that room i will make a real big area for him and do like you said and take some of the side off his box so he can come and go on his own.

I'll take some pics of him tonight.

Jason.



maggie3fan said:


> I sure wish it could be a little bigger, that's really small for a 20 pound animal. But you'll take him out to run around some won't you? Hay is not a good substrate for Sulcata as he needs a humid atmosphere. Can't you make that just a little bigger? Or can't you set up his hide and lights in that box but leave one side open so he can walk around that empty room? Sulcata are very smart and it won't take him any time at all to realize where to sleep at night if you have a hide in there with the basking light and his UVB lights.See where I'm going with that? Is there any reason he can't have the run of that room? You can pick up anything he'd try to put in his mouth. Heck, I think that's a great idea, then he'd go under the light to warm up and to sleep and he'd have the run of the place for exercise...just a thought...


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## nrfitchett4 (Feb 16, 2009)

maggie3fan said:


> I know that some people use hay as a substrate. But hay molds and you can't have a damp substrate if it's hay. So just because you know a breeder who uses hay as a substrate doesn't make it right, his ethics are questionable anyway if he is breeding Sulcata. Humidity is imperative to prevent pyramiding and you can't create humidity if hay is the substrate.



How can you question someone's ethics you don't even know??? He has several species of tortoises and to be honest with you, they look healthier than 90% of the torts I see pics of here on the forum. He also rescues torts and is willing to take back any tort he sells. I have a hard time believing hay will mold in higher temps of a tort enclosure.
Sorry if I trust a breeder with over 20 years of experience. But since it's not your way it must be wrong.

maybe you could tile or linoluem the floor instead of carpet? Easier to clean.


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## Kristina (Feb 16, 2009)

Keeping a Sulcata on carpet is NOT a good idea, lol. They pee and poop a LOT and it will be ruined in a week. Linoleum, tile or even peel and stick tiles would be better.

As to hay not molding in the high temps of a tort enclosure, that makes no sense. Hay WILL mold if it is wet, and molds FASTER if it is warm. *MY* twenty years of experience farming and keeping horses tells me that. 

It is against my morals, also, to ever breed a single Sulcata. How many of them out there are bred every year and die because of improper care? I won't contribute to that, and anyone that does... Well, must have some thick skin.

Kristina


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## Maggie Cummings (Feb 16, 2009)

nrfitchett4 said:


> maggie3fan said:
> 
> 
> > I know that some people use hay as a substrate. But hay molds and you can't have a damp substrate if it's hay. So just because you know a breeder who uses hay as a substrate doesn't make it right, his ethics are questionable anyway if he is breeding Sulcata. Humidity is imperative to prevent pyramiding and you can't create humidity if hay is the substrate.
> ...






My family has been involved in turtle and tortoise rescue for over 35 years. There are too many homeless Sulcata in rescues now. Sulcata are like feral cats and it has become very hard to find homes for them. When I talk about breeding Sulcata and keeping Sulcata I am talking about my own personal experience, not someone else's. It is my experience in the years I have been keeping turtles and tortoises that wet hay molds. It molds because it is wet and kept at higher temperatures. I realize you are a new keeper and you don't have your own experience to fall back on and to quote from here on this forum. You seem to have to talk about someone else's experiences not having any of your own but there is nothing wrong with my advice to this poster. I know that I am correct in saying that wet hay molds, that is my years of experience talking and that is exactly why new keepers come on this forum, to get information from more experienced keepers. I have been giving good advice to this poster.
Frankly, I am very tired of you who has no experience constantly questioning my advice given from my years of experience. You know nothing about keeping chelonia and that is evidenced by your posts. This was a nice thread with a good exchange of information until you brought your negativity and hostility to it. So back off and take your anger and hostility somewhere else... I am fed up with you.


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## Yvonne G (Feb 16, 2009)

Ok, here's the deal about using hay for substrate for a desert-type tortoise: It has recently been realized that desert-type tortoises require more humidity in their habitat than we as keepers have been giving them. So we now realize that we need to either provide a humid hiding place, or moist substrate. You can't moisten hay substrate because it molds. So when we say hay will mold, that's what we're talking about. The fact that you need to moisten the substrate. If someone is using hay as a substrate and it doesn't mold then that tells us that that person is NOT providing the moist environment the tortoise requires.

Yvonne


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## egyptiandan (Feb 16, 2009)

I think it's time for everyone to take a step back and cool off a bit. 

I don't use hay nor would I recommend hay as a substrate, as like everyone has said it will mold if it gets wet. Just because someone is using it doesn't mean it should be recommended.
I used to use rabbit pellets as a substrate and I see a few people still using it. After having used it and seeing first hand what happens to it and the trouble tortoises have walking on it. I would never recommended it and would try to persuade someone not to use.

Danny


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## Maggie Cummings (Feb 16, 2009)

I would like to apologize to the members of the forum here, when someone mentions breeding and Sulcata in the same sentence I fly off like a rocket. On the West Coast Sulcata are like feral cats, homeless and abused. There are too many Sulcata in rescues and not enough homes for them. You all know my family is involved in turtle and tortoise rescue and so I know about homeless Sulcata first hand. I have made it a crusade of mine to make the public aware of the problems with breeding Sulcata...I feel very strongly about it...


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## Meg90 (Feb 16, 2009)

I'm glad you feel strongly Maggie...I don't think it is wrong to have an opinion. 

I myself LOVE pitbulls, but I think that those who breed them just because they have them are wrong. Especially when in some states, they are becoming illegal. 

Why add to the population of something, that will eventually have no homes available at all?

It is valiant to take back those animals that are sold, and then become unwanted. But owning a tortoise is a life long commitment, and what is the breeder going to do when he is swamped with returned, and probably badly taken care of sulcatas?

Everyone loves babies. I myself love babies. But I would rather adopt someone then go pick out another teeny sulcata. Just go on petfinder and look under "turtle" alot of adult, and sub adult sulcatas come up.


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## Kristina (Feb 16, 2009)

egyptiandan said:


> I think it's time for everyone to take a step back and cool off a bit.
> 
> I don't use hay nor would I recommend hay as a substrate, as like everyone has said it will mold if it gets wet. Just because someone is using it doesn't mean it should be recommended.
> I used to use rabbit pellets as a substrate and I see a few people still using it. After having used it and seeing first hand what happens to it and the trouble tortoises have walking on it. I would never recommended it and would try to persuade someone not to use.
> ...


I used to use rabbit pellets, I tried reptile bark, and 14 years ago I used to (gasp) use a heat rock 

My point is that all of us have done things that aren't perfect, we have tried new things that haven't worked, but in order for it to be a positive experience you have to LEARN from your mistake.

The point of this _forum_ is that there are already a bunch of us that have made the big mistakes. We are offering our experiences and knowledge so that the rest of you don't have to go through the heartaches that we have. 

Why does that seem to be a problem for some people? Does anyone who is a member here really think that another member would deliberately give bad advice, possibly harming someone else's tortoise? I don't think any member here would, and I certainly hope that no one else feels that way.

Why does every little peice of advice given lately have to have rebuttal?

I haven't been a member long, but I love this forum. I liked when I joined that everyone seemed to get along so well. That suddenly seems to be falling apart and that makes me sad.

I wish this could all stop and we could get back to helping each other.

Kristina


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## nrfitchett4 (Feb 16, 2009)

maggie3fan said:


> nrfitchett4 said:
> 
> 
> > maggie3fan said:
> ...






you yourself admit to having torts die because of improper husbandry. You have also admitted that you don't always go with the conventional opinion on raising your torts. Yes hay can mold, so can any other organic matter. But if it is frequently changed out, it shouldn't be a problem. Not to mention it is cheap. I saw all of the torts that this man had, some were hatched by him, some were rescues. His torts were amazing, and the enclosures were very well done. All of the torts were very friendly and showed no signs of stress. So obviously, what he is doing is working.
My problem is your questioning the morals of someone you know nothing about. Just because there are problem breeders out there, doesn't make them all bad. I'm sorry that people don't take care of their torts. Does that mean that no one should be able to experience raising them? I guess no one should have kids either then, since some get abused.

I guess because I am new to the world of torts, I'm not allowed to have an opinion??? Trust me, I have read every thing I can find on the internet and research very thoroughly before purchasing any animal. Tort care seems to be ever changing, maybe there are some better ideas out there that the "expert" tort keepers haven't thought of.



kyryah said:


> Keeping a Sulcata on carpet is NOT a good idea, lol. They pee and poop a LOT and it will be ruined in a week. Linoleum, tile or even peel and stick tiles would be better.
> 
> As to hay not molding in the high temps of a tort enclosure, that makes no sense. Hay WILL mold if it is wet, and molds FASTER if it is warm. *MY* twenty years of experience farming and keeping horses tells me that.
> 
> ...



Well then maybe you should give up your torts as well. To me, even rescuing them can add to the problem. As long as there are people out there willing to take in your cast away, people will never learn. But that is a discussion for the debateable thread. 
I agree, free roaming flooring should be tile or linoleum.



emysemys said:


> Ok, here's the deal about using hay for substrate for a desert-type tortoise: It has recently been realized that desert-type tortoises require more humidity in their habitat than we as keepers have been giving them. So we now realize that we need to either provide a humid hiding place, or moist substrate. You can't moisten hay substrate because it molds. So when we say hay will mold, that's what we're talking about. The fact that you need to moisten the substrate. If someone is using hay as a substrate and it doesn't mold then that tells us that that person is NOT providing the moist environment the tortoise requires.
> 
> Yvonne



what about with humid hides and frequent soaking? Or if your tortoise ends up most of the year outside and burrows. 
Sand/ bed a beast is the number one recommended substrate on this forum. yet sand can cause impactions and eye irritation. Show me the perfect substrate and I'll be happy to use it. right now I'm using potting soil with hay on top. I moisten the soil about twice a week and soak her every day. Been doing this since I got her. I will let you know if the hay molds.


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## Meg90 (Feb 16, 2009)

kyryah said:


> egyptiandan said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's time for everyone to take a step back and cool off a bit.
> ...



I agree with Kristina. Why use aggressive language, and bad-mouth others ways of raising their tortoises? Yvonne has obviously learned ALOT over the years about tortoises.

And she was not, nor was anyone else badmouthing your breeder. Maggie even apologized for being overzealous. She just said that she feels strongly about those that still continue to breed sulcata, regardless of all the homeless and abused sulcatas out there.

There is no need to go on the defense. And the impaction risk is lessened when sand is mixed w/ BB. Why not use something when it is shown to work? And if there is perilite in your soil, that is an impaction risk as well.


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## Candy (Feb 16, 2009)

You are not actually trying to say that people are part of the problem by taking in tortoises that have been abused or abandoned are you? And if you are comparing children and tortoises I guess you think that the kids would be better off without foster care? What do you think we should put them out on the street too. I think if you would listen instead of getting so upset and defensive you might learn something here. Maggie obviously knows her stuff and that's shown here on this forum and the information that she gives you. She has every right to question the breeder if he's breeding Sulcatas because she's the one who's taking them when people can't. She's also the one who has to see the abuse of them time and time again from what it sounds like to me. I'm new here also and new to tortoises, but I can take the advice I need and leave the rest alone. And aren't you questioning the ethics of someone you don't know either? Candy


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## egyptiandan (Feb 17, 2009)

We have gotten way off topic here now. I think Jason has gotten the advice he's needed and it's time to close the thread.

Danny


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