# Dissection.



## Anyfoot (Jan 13, 2019)

If your squeamish don’t read this thread.

This tortoise was 5 months old.
SCL is 66mm
Weight is 57g
Carapace weight is 14g. 

I had one of my 5 month old babies die a couple days ago. Why it died I don’t know. The other 23 babies are thriving. 
I’ve noticed that they are all getting that crevice that I dread, and as usual it’s around the 5 month old period. I reckon I’ve got about a 30% rate of growing smooth tortoises. So from super smooth to pyramided. I’ve tried every single diet, hydration method you can think of and still I get a variation in growth.
There’s on going debates regarding pyramiding, grow them slow and keep them wet being the main two methods.
All my babies and I mean every single one are super smooth up until around the 5 month old stage. Then for some reason some of them start to pyramid at different degrees. This always coincides with that first crevice.
These (now) 23 babies are in a closed system with no intense heat spots, I have a uvb tube over the feeding area, I soak them daily, I spray them regularly and the humidity is 99%. I have fed zero protein until today. 
Because we’ve had such a hot summer the weeds have struggled to grow in 2018, the majority of food has been grocery bought greens, with occasional mushroom and fruit. I’ve sprinkles nutrobal on food every other day. 

In an attempt to learn more about how they grow I’ve dissected the baby that died. Disgusting I know, but sick of 2nd guessing how these animals grow at such a young age.

Here are some photos that I have taken.

























You’ll have to excuse me because I’m an engineer, not a scientist or biologist and I’m out of my comfort zone. Please, anyone who can speak on a more professional term about this, then do so. My version is the lame mans version 

From what I’m seeing it’s basically a frame made up of bones, the spine and 16 ribs with a canopy(carapace) of bone and keratin laid over the frame. All the areola are anchored down to the ribs, The ribs, 8 on each side come from the spine down to marginal scutes 3 to 10 and to the opposite numbers. 
I’m not seeing any fontanels at this age, the whole carapace is very very flexible. 

I cut it length ways down the middle of the coastal areola. You can see where that crevice is digging into the bone at the 5 month mark. You can also see that the keratin is a constant thickness(about 0.2mm). I’m not see any thickening of keratin where it expands to fill the crevice. 
So that means that unless the bone grows thicker and pushes the supple keratin up it will always remain a groove. 
I then made a 2nd cut vertically through the coastal scute to see if it was the ribs that are causing crevice, as I thought it is not. Because the crevice between marginal and coastal scute is the same, the keratin is dig into the bone. 

Thinking outside the box knowing that there are many well respected breeders on here, and I do listen too every one. Some say slow growth and some say hydration. Imo both have valid points and both methods produce smooth and bumpy tortoises. For this reason we are not on the right track. I we can not produce 100% smooth tortoises then we haven’t nailed it. 

Soooo.... this is where I could get shot down and I’m pretty certain I’ve not thought of everything and I may well be off the right track.

If we imagine a tortoises carapace and bone framework like an umbrella. When we open an umbrella it pulls the fabric taut and creates a smooth tight canopy. (Or a tent). 
If we don’t get the spine and ribs to grow strong and healthy it will not pull the carapace taut. This combined with growing too dry or too wet may cause pyramiding. 
If we grow the bone frame in a dry climate then all that’s happening is it’s pushing the areola away from the seems of the scutes creating pyramiding because the seems are not flexible. 

If we grow them slow in a dry climate then the carapace and keratin are forced to push on each other, it will force the keratin to push down into the bone. 

If we grow them slow and wet then the carapace and keratin are not kept taut because it’s too flexible and not being stretched. 

If we grow the bone framework fast and keep the tortoise hydrated it will keep the supple carapace taut and in theory grow smooth. (I’m hoping). 

The only way to get bones to grow strong and fast is protein. This doesn’t necessarily mean animal protein. It could be plant protein. I’m pretty sure my diet is not good regarding protein because I’ve had to rely on grocery greens for most part. 
Then I ask myself, so why would they grow smooth for 5 months then all of a sudden pyramid slightly. I can only think the initial eggsack supply of protein has come to an end. 
I know there are thoughts about kidney damage with higher protein. Higher protein levels also increase calcium absorption I believe. 
Maybe they require higher protein levels for a short while when young and as they grow to adult hood that changes. Maybe insects and bugs are a big part of the diet whilst young to get the boost for the bone framework to grow fast and strong. They would also get the vitamins required from let’s say, ants. 

When we say vitamin D is a soluble vitamin that can be stored in fat, where are the fat stores. In the blood? 

I keep thinking back to my baby homeana. 90% protein and they’ve all grown on to be super smooth and seem healthy. 
I also keep thinking back to the first 3 redfoots I raised, being a novice I fed them everything and anything. Loads of protein. They all grew up smooth. 
Then I seen Carl’s Feral redfoot. That doesn’t look like it’s grown slow to me. 
Is there main priority as a hatching to find rich foods and methods of hydration. 

Has anyone ever raised them on a high protein diet with high hydration until their carapace and plastron become hard? 

Even if I’m 100% wrong and way off with this ludicrous thought, it doesn’t matter if someone else can think of something more realistic from these photos. 

What I’ve learnt from dissecting this tort is, there’s no fontanels and the keratin doesn’t seem to swell up. The keratin and carapace bone can not be split apart which suggests they grow in tandem. 

If the bone framework grows too slow it can not keep the carapace taut. If the carapace is kept too dry it will deform the bone framework is what I’m thinking. 

Need a beer.


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## Markw84 (Jan 13, 2019)

Love your experiment and investigation here. I have not had a chance to respond to some of your later emails about this project yet as I was out yesterday afternoon. When I got back on the computer now and saw this, though I would respond here.

So much to respond to. I do see things quite a bit differently than you here. First, perhaps a bit of explanation on bone growth. The framework for bone first starts as cartilage. As vertebrates develop and grow that cartilage is the encased or replace by ossification and becomes bone. For example, when you look at pictures of embryos, what you see as developing skeleton is all cartilage, not bone. Most of the rib growth in a tortoise shell is going on through endochondral ossification. The cartilage will be repaced by bone, but the process takes quite a while. This will replace the cartilage with bone and the bone will eventually fill in and thicken as it grows. In this tortoise I see mostly cartilage, in the mid to lower costal regions. Towards the spine you can see thickened areas of paired ribs. That is where bone is building. Fontanelles are not open areas - as "nothing" there. Fontanelles are open areas of bone development where the bone has not yet replaced the cartilage. A good portion of this carapace is still cartilage. In your earlier dissection pictures you can even see the translucent nature of the cartilage as you can see the areolae of the costals through the inside of the carapace. A good portion of the plastron is also cartilage and initially thicker than carapace cartilage protecting the vital organs, yet still somewhat pliable.

The areolae is not truly connected to bone (or cartilage). It does remain over the same original area as the tortoise grows, however. Bone growth does not only happen at bone sutures as bones can lengthen and scute seams do not coincide with bone sutures. A very important strength adaptation. So the scute is "floating" over the bones with sometimes a few bones beneath a single scute, and a vertebral scute as well as a costal over the same rib, for example. There is a vital, thin epithelial layer separating the two. The area of bone under the original areolae location does remains constant.

Much of what you see as groove, is what I see as the epithelial layer fold, that is the site of Keratin production. This is the seams of the scutes as - in tortoises, the only place of any substantial new keratin growth is at the scute seams. This is (extremely simplistically) sort of like a hair follicle would be to hair production. Since this is at scute seams, as pyramiding, or a growth seam develops, this is the center of where bone would be deflected by downward pressure of the forming keratin.

As you can see from your dissection, the first places to ossify and become harder bone, is from the spine outward. With this tortoise, the areas under the vertebrals is already well into ossification and bone thickness is already building. That is why we see pyramiding in young tortoises happening around the vertebral scutes while the lower costal scute seams will remain flat. There is no bone to reform there yet. It is only older tortoises that can develop some pyramiding of the lower costals when the bone more fully develops there.

These types of observations are a lot of what helped me develop my theory on how pyramiding works. And seeing the development in this tortoise fits everything perfectly.

As to your umbrella analogy - I do not see this holding value in relation to pyramiding. In fact, in cases of severe dehydration in young tortoises, you actually see the opposite happening where the cartilage looses so much water that the scutes actually sink in a bit and there is an upward ridge at the scute seams. The exact opposite of pyramiding. You see this most obviously in the plastron in severely dehydrated tortoises and turtles. But dehydration to that extreme is causing far more damage than just pyramiding.

I still firmly believe that pyramiding is caused by pressure on the epithelial layer causes osteoclast genesis. Actual bone loss to relieve the pressure. Osteoblast genesis will happen on the reverse side of the bone as more cells are called into play to build new bone there and retain thickness to the overall bone. This reshapes the bone creating the valleys. This has not happened yet in this tortoise. At this stage it is still simply a groove that could be just a growth ring, but has not yet developed into the beginning of pyramiding.

I love all the experiments and questions you come up with. Thank you, Craig!


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 13, 2019)

This is extremely interesting. I am definitely not knowledgeable to give theories, but I can’t wait to see other people’s thoughts.


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## Anyfoot (Jan 13, 2019)

Markw84 said:


> Love your experiment and investigation here. I have not had a chance to respond to some of your later emails about this project yet as I was out yesterday afternoon. When I got back on the computer now and saw this, though I would respond here.
> 
> So much to respond to. I do see things quite a bit differently than you here. First, perhaps a bit of explanation on bone growth. The framework for bone first starts as cartilage. As vertebrates develop and grow that cartilage is the encased or replace by ossification and becomes bone. For example, when you look at pictures of embryos, what you see as developing skeleton is all cartilage, not bone. Most of the rib growth in a tortoise shell is going on through endochondral ossification. The cartilage will be repaced by bone, but the process takes quite a while. This will replace the cartilage with bone and the bone will eventually fill in and thicken as it grows. In this tortoise I see mostly cartilage, in the mid to lower costal regions. Towards the spine you can see thickened areas of paired ribs. That is where bone is building. Fontanelles are not open areas - as "nothing" there. Fontanelles are open areas of bone development where the bone has not yet replaced the cartilage. A good portion of this carapace is still cartilage. In your earlier dissection pictures you can even see the translucent nature of the cartilage as you can see the areolae of the costals through the inside of the carapace. A good portion of the plastron is also cartilage and initially thicker than carapace cartilage protecting the vital organs, yet still somewhat pliable.
> 
> ...


 Thank you Mark. 
I here what your saying about sunken scutes regarding total dehydration. 
Almost the entire carapace and plastron is yet to ossify. At this stage it’s like boot leather. Very floppy. 

I can not see any bones what’s so ever in the plastron not even down the length of the seam. Which makes sense with soaking the eggsack up and then the healing process. 
So why don’t we have a problem with the plastron pyramiding? There’s no bones to interfere like on the plastron, well that and the fact the carapace is a curvature. 

That means for the plastron we are waiting for the ossification of the bone alone to gain rigidity. 
Same surely applies to the carapace, except we are dealing with a bone structure too. The bone structure is growing outwards constantly in every direction from where the hatchling first started out.(the carcass is getting bigger). With that we have ribs, spine and scute plates which are all either bone or cartilage. Is that correct? 
On top of the scute plates which is still cartilage we have a layer of keratin growing at the scute seams. In my case you can see how the keratin is in a downward position digging into the cartilage at the seams. 
How can a soft playable cartilage push that keratin back level? And why as it taken 5 months for me to see an irregular growth pattern. 

I now understand when a the scute plates are totally ossified that the keratin growth no longer dictates to the hard ossified bone plates. 

Is there a way to speed up ossification, what causes the actual ossification of cartilage to bone. Vitamin D, calcium???? Is protein a major player in that process. 

If you are correct then my tortoises in no way should pyramid. There is not a cat in hells chance that these tortoises are dehydrated. 

After I posted this I went back to look at the plastron cause I wasn’t sure if there was any bones in it. Here are a few photos. 
What I did notice is the keratin dips in at the seam just like on the carapace. This supports your theory IMO. 

I have to say, I’m absolutely dumbfound with how little there is to a tortoise once you’ve taken all the organs out. I expected to see a scaffolding of bones. 

Where is the fat in a tortoise?


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## Markw84 (Jan 13, 2019)

yCraig. Easier to answer by copying your text and answering with my thoughts in blue.

I here what your saying about sunken scutes regarding total dehydration.
Almost the entire carapace and plastron is yet to ossify. At this stage it’s like boot leather. Very floppy.

I can not see any bones what’s so ever in the plastron not even down the length of the seam. Which makes sense with soaking the eggsack up and then the healing process.
So why don’t we have a problem with the plastron pyramiding? There’s no bones to interfere like on the plastron, well that and the fact the carapace is a curvature.

Ground contact. The plastron is almost constantly in contact with the soil. The tortoise chooses moist spots to stay. No dehydration. I believe young tortoises in the wild remain buried almost all the time. Soil, or leaf litter, mud, etc. We alter that in captivity. Even with high humidity, you will still have desiccation, especially under lamps where enclosure temps are higher and therefore humidity lower. Plus the desiccation of IR. Let alone the fact that many keeper use very barren, unnatural enclosures even when humidity is high.

That means for the plastron we are waiting for the ossification of the bone alone to gain rigidity.
Same surely applies to the carapace, except we are dealing with a bone structure too. The bone structure is growing outwards constantly in every direction from where the hatchling first started out.(the carcass is getting bigger). With that we have ribs, spine and scute plates which are all either bone or cartilage. Is that correct?
On top of the scute plates which is still cartilage we have a layer of keratin growing at the scute seams. In my case you can see how the keratin is in a downward position digging into the cartilage at the seams.

Scute plates are always keratin. Scutes are never cartilage. Bone begins as cartilage. I believe a lot of what we are seeing in your dissection is the epithelial layer fold. That is the area of new keratin production. It is produced there and flows into the seams created by growth and the carapace expansion. The bone is growing, so the scutes are being pulled apart. The epithelial fold is the "keratin follicle" that is producing new keratin to fill in that gap.

How can a soft playable cartilage push that keratin back level?

Cartilage is not being deformed. It does not dissolve and get removed by metabolic processes like bone would here. So although the keratin may be drying on top and grow more downward, that downward pressure is not removing cartilage. It remains and the keratin is pushed level. With bone, the pressure on the epithelial layer, as the new keratin fills in next to the epithelial fold, actually causes osteoclast genesis. That means a type of stem cell that epithelial tissue can contain, actually turns into cells that absorb existing bone - osteoclasts. Bone is dissolved. This creates a permanent dip in the bone that cannot "spring back". Bone growth is being redirected. This cannot happen with cartilage. It can only happen when cartilage has ossified into bone.

And why as it taken 5 months for me to see an irregular growth pattern.

Good question. We can only conjecture as you have. I would say that there is a natural pattern of growth activity. In nature it coincides with weather and food availability. Perhaps tortoises are inclined to grow optimally for several months, then metabolically redistribute nutrients/growth/let keratin production "reset"?? Perhaps bone growth goes through periods of more thickening vs lengthening. Keratin production would have to vary to accommodate any changes.

I now understand when a the scute plates are totally ossified that the keratin growth no longer dictates to the hard ossified bone plates.

No sure if I follow this statement. We are talking two totally different processes. Scute, and bones. Scutes do not ossify. They are keratin. They grow and expand by new keratin added at the seams only. Bones are separated by sutures. They first form as cartilage and ossify to bone. As "hard" bone, that is when pyramiding can occur. The pressure at scute seams actually deforms hard bone below. The older the tortoise is, the more ossified the bone. The older the bone, the more resistant it appears to get to this reforming. I would conjecture because of the relative size of the bone to the size of the reforming at the seam. A young tortoise has a scute seam much larger as a percentage of the total scute width.

Is there a way to speed up ossification, what causes the actual ossification of cartilage to bone. Vitamin D, calcium???? Is protein a major player in that process.

My current belief would be - no. Fast or slow growth, ossification seems to take time. The portions of the carapace and the pace at which they ossify seems to be independent of speed of growth. Bone is a collagen framework hardened by Calcium and Phosphorus. The collage is protein based. So some protein is a necessary component and major player to growth in general.

If you are correct then my tortoises in no way should pyramid. There is not a cat in hells chance that these tortoises are dehydrated.

I think we need to think of ways keratin could have surface desiccation at a growth seam as opposed to a general metabolic dehydration. Can be two very different things. As I noted in my more detail explanation of my pyramiding thesis, tortoise keratin is the only keratin I know of in nature that is exposed while still in the forming stage. Internal hydration would only effect the inner side of the keratin of a scute. It is the outer surface that is exposed to the elements that causes the pyramiding effect. All other keratin in animals is protected by tissue while forming. I believe tortoises have evolved with the "habits" to stay buried and protected to compensated during their more fragile growth stages. Plant cover, mud, moist soil, leaf litter.

After I posted this I went back to look at the plastron cause I wasn’t sure if there was any bones in it. Here are a few photos.
What I did notice is the keratin dips in at the seam just like on the carapace. This supports your theory IMO.

Yes, the dip is the epithelial fold.

I have to say, I’m absolutely dumbfound with how little there is to a tortoise once you’ve taken all the organs out. I expected to see a scaffolding of bones.

Where is the fat in a tortoise?

Another tortoise myth! Tortoises do not get fat. Checking weight prior to brumation is checking hydration, not fat stores. Mammals and endotherms (homeotherms) use fat as insulation and energy stores when metabolic activity must be maintained even if food availability drops. Tortoises evolved a different strategy. They do not need to maintain any body heat metabolically. When food availability drops, they shut down their metabolism. As ectotherms, they do not need insulation. It would do no good. They also use glycogen levels to store the energy they do need for the little metabolic activity in periods of dormancy. This is stored in the blood stream and intercellular. They do have some small fat stores, but nothing like you would see in the intramuscular and subcutaneous fat stores you are used to seeing in mammals.


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## Anyfoot (Jan 13, 2019)

Markw84 said:


> yCraig. Easier to answer by copying your text and answering with my thoughts in blue.
> 
> I here what your saying about sunken scutes regarding total dehydration.
> Almost the entire carapace and plastron is yet to ossify. At this stage it’s like boot leather. Very floppy.
> ...


We are on the same page regarding “scute plate”. My bad. I was referring to the bone underlying the scute keratin plate. The bone can’t be a scute plate because scute plates seams and bone sutures overlap creating a brick effect. Correct? 

Can they store vitamin D in the fats of the blood stream? 

If my tortoise pyramid Mark and we make the assumption that it is hydration that causes pyramiding. 
Then it’s because they have stopped hiding under the moss. They’ve started sitting on top of the moss, all big and bold. They’ve tamed up. 
But this also means 99% relative humidity at 82/83f and daily soaks is not fullproof. 

What do you think about them getting a storage of protein from the eggsack? How long would that initial source last(5 months maybe).


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## Anyfoot (Jan 14, 2019)

If the carapace ossification is a set period of time and not relative to tortoise general growth then surely growing them slow whilst waiting for ossification would be the best case for keeping the carapace in shape. 

Theoretically speaking, if we didn’t grow the tortoise at all and waited for ossification and then grew it the carapace bone would have to follow its natural path.
Im thinking the more advanced we grow it in size whilst carapace is still cartilage the more unstable the whole structure of the the carapace becomes.(pyramiding).


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## Yvonne G (Jan 14, 2019)

I'm still not quite sure what you are referring to as the crevice. So you mean the space between the scutes where the new growth happens?


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## Anyfoot (Jan 14, 2019)

Yvonne G said:


> I'm still not quite sure what you are referring to as the crevice. So you mean the space between the scutes where the new growth happens?


Yes. You can see a gap between scutes. Up until this growth gap(crevice) you could only see a very thin white line of keratin following the growth. The thin white lines give a very smooth carapace. When I see the wider growth crevice, it’s then when there’s a chance of pyramiding to follow. I like to see the very thin white lines. 
Give me a minute and I will find a couple of photos showing the crevice in a 5 month old compared to it at about 15 months old. It’s very obvious the pyramiding started from the crevice.


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## Anyfoot (Jan 14, 2019)

Look at the wider growth ring(crevice) on the front coastal scute that appeared at 5 months old. Then look at where the pyramiding started on the 15month old photo. My care did not change. 
My opinion is either lack of protein or there habits change and they stop digging into the moss which keeps the carapace moist.


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## Markw84 (Jan 14, 2019)

Anyfoot said:


> If the carapace ossification is a set period of time and not relative to tortoise general growth then surely growing them slow whilst waiting for ossification would be the best case for keeping the carapace in shape.
> 
> Theoretically speaking, if we didn’t grow the tortoise at all and waited for ossification and then grew it the carapace bone would have to follow its natural path.
> Im thinking the more advanced we grow it in size whilst carapace is still cartilage the more unstable the whole structure of the the carapace becomes.(pyramiding).



I certainly do see things the way you do here! I see "slow growing" a tortoise as purposely retarding growth. To do that you limit the nutritional items it needs to grow. A tortoise has evolved the ability to slow down its metabolism to accommodate that. Not because it is healthy, but because it is a survival not thriving mechanism. The more the metabolism slows (the less nutritional value it gets) the more vital metabolic functions have to be slowed or stopped to conserve resources. Giant tortoises were known for their ability to live up to a year with no food - hence their use by sailors as a source of fresh meat for up to a year after their last chance to supply their ships. That doesn't mean the tortoises did well, or benefited from not growing. It means they have the ability to shut down most metabolic processes to survive. I believe this happened as tortoise were left in "left over" habitats as mammals out competed them and took over all the more favorable habitat locations. So their "strategy" was to be able to survive where others could not as opposed to competing for prime habitat. This strategy means most of them die. It is very risky. Larger reproductive output to generate very few successful individuals. Look at sulcatas - an adult female can produce well over 2000-3000 babies in her lifetime in an effort to replace herself and a mate. That's a goal of 2 out of 3000 if populations are stable, 3 out of 3000 if populations are growing!

So is the ability to slow metabolism an indication of prime condition? I don't believe so at all. What animal do we ever consider purposefully stunting their growth to help them be more healthy? The ability to shut down metabolic function is a risky survival tactic, not a tactic to improve health.

When you slow down metabolic function, growth slows. So the necessary nutrients for muscle, bone, organ growth is limited so the adaptation the tortoise has made to do these things means choices are made about what to sacrifice. True growth balance and optimal growing conditions are sacrificed. A tortoise may survive, but may live a much shorter life. May be stunted in eventual size potential. May have breeding functions reduced. May die next year? In the wild when this occurs, the tortoise also aestivates or semi-aestivates. They are not pulled from their hide and bathed every day and put in front of food. The conditions that cause slower growth also provides for this reduced activity behavior. Do you know how to create that in captivity and then retain the necessary marginal balance?

As far as reducing pyramiding, I see the opposite. Keeping parameters in balance and allowing optimal growth conditions means metabolic resources can be spent on all necessary functions. Bone ossification proceeds in proportion to overall growth. Ossification is taking place rapidly and on pace with growth. When you start slowing growth, Ossification and the needed balance between calcium phosphorus, magnesium and the proteins is very much at risk.

The pyramiding is actually not occurring over the less ossified bones. Look at the lower costals. So your idea of reducing pyramiding by allowing bone to more fully ossify before growth, means more of the tortoise will be prone to pyramid once growth begins or speeds up again. The "natural path" as you put it of bone is the path the cartilage framework provides. Once ossified is where and when bone remodeling occurs and new paths can be determined. Good growth in optimal conditions will allow the best growth outcome.

The active agent for pyramiding is the scute. Pyramiding ONLY occurs along scute patterns. Scutes only grow from the seams. So scute seams and new keratin are the only factor that drives pyramiding. Bone responds to pressure and remodels according to the pressure. The agent for this action is an epithelial layer that contains stem cells that can alter themselves into bone dissolving cells. The pressure on an epithelial layer is what triggers this osteoclast genesis. To reduce pyramiding we therefore need to think about ways to keep new keratin growing optimally and evenly developing top and bottom as it forms. An imbalance top vs bottom causes pyramiding. The bottom is in contact with the epithelial layer. Protected from any premature drying and hardening/stiffening by living tissue. The top is fully exposed. This little area controls pyramiding. Protecting this is how to affect pyramiding.

My belief is that baby tortoises "know" how to do this. They hide. Dig in and bury. They keep their shells protected by a moist layer of something. Leaf litter, mud, soil, thick grass. They do not venture out in the open. That's why they are so hard to find. I believe the ones you do occasionally find are the ones that wouldn't make it. A successful tortoise in the wild stays hidden and protected its first several years. We alter all that in captivity. We teach our baby tortoises to be bold and out begging for food. With daily baths, we show them there is nothing to feat. We place them in enclosures that are quite barren as opposed to the dense vegetation or leaf litter they would choose in the wild. I believe if it is easy to see your tortoise resting in its enclosure, your enclosure is not optimal.


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## Markw84 (Jan 14, 2019)

Anyfoot said:


> Look at the wider growth ring(crevice) on the front coastal scute that appeared at 5 months old. Then look at where the pyramiding started on the 15month old photo. My care did not change.
> My opinion is either lack of protein or there habits change and they stop digging into the moss which keeps the carapace moist.



Maybe at 5 months, we simply have well trained, unafraid, bold baby tortoises who no longer feel the need to be protected?????


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## Anyfoot (Jan 14, 2019)

Markw84 said:


> I certainly do see things the way you do here! I see "slow growing" a tortoise as purposely retarding growth. To do that you limit the nutritional items it needs to grow. A tortoise has evolved the ability to slow down its metabolism to accommodate that. Not because it is healthy, but because it is a survival not thriving mechanism. The more the metabolism slows (the less nutritional value it gets) the more vital metabolic functions have to be slowed or stopped to conserve resources. Giant tortoises were known for their ability to live up to a year with no food - hence their use by sailors as a source of fresh meat for up to a year after their last chance to supply their ships. That doesn't mean the tortoises did well, or benefited from not growing. It means they have the ability to shut down most metabolic processes to survive. I believe this happened as tortoise were left in "left over" habitats as mammals out competed them and took over all the more favorable habitat locations. So their "strategy" was to be able to survive where others could not as opposed to competing for prime habitat. This strategy means most of them die. It is very risky. Larger reproductive output to generate very few successful individuals. Look at sulcatas - an adult female can produce well over 2000-3000 babies in her lifetime in an effort to replace herself and a mate. That's a goal of 2 out of 3000 if populations are stable, 3 out of 3000 if populations are growing!
> 
> So is the ability to slow metabolism an indication of prime condition? I don't believe so at all. What animal do we ever consider purposefully stunting their growth to help them be more healthy? The ability to shut down metabolic function is a risky survival tactic, not a tactic to improve health.
> 
> ...


 I’ve gone around this circle numerous times and now back full circle again. The bloody things get too tame in captivity, some still hide and some do not. That’s why I’m seeing a variation of smoothness within the same group. 

Think I need a fake hawk flying through the enclosure from time to time to keep them at bay.


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 14, 2019)

Maybe having a very well planted and cluttered enclosure would help?


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## Anyfoot (Jan 14, 2019)

TechnoCheese said:


> Maybe having a very well planted and cluttered enclosure would help?


 I’ve done it. It doesn’t work. They need to be lost in the ground. These 23 I’m raising now, up until about 4 week ago I had to dig down into the substrate to find them. I’m not exaggerating, it could take me a good 20minutes to find them all in a 4x8 vivarium. They would dig into the coir 2 or 3” below the moss. Impossible to see. Feel around by digging fingers in.


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## Markw84 (Jan 14, 2019)

I am intrigued by the use of coconut oil. since we are altering their behavior plus - what fun is a tortoise you can never see! - perhaps we need to help with altered ways of retaining moisture. There have been a few example on the forum of one keeper I know who admitted to being sloppy about humidity, had open top, and bathed irregularly but had a quite nice, smooth tortoise - I recall leopard? She said she was good at keeping coconut oil on after every bath that was normally about 2x week. I also always am impressed with @Pearly 's redfoots and I know she says she uses oil regularly.

It seems to be something that would have value. Have you tried a strict regimen of keeping cold pressed coconut oil on the carapace? Since the carapace is totally keratin, oil would have great value in keeping it more supple. That is on my list of experiments for this next year.


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## Anyfoot (Jan 14, 2019)

Markw84 said:


> I am intrigued by the use of coconut oil. since we are altering their behavior plus - what fun is a tortoise you can never see! - perhaps we need to help with altered ways of retaining moisture. There have been a few example on the forum of one keeper I know who admitted to being sloppy about humidity, had open top, and bathed irregularly but had a quite nice, smooth tortoise - I recall leopard? She said she was good at keeping coconut oil on after every bath that was normally about 2x week. I also always am impressed with @Pearly 's redfoots and I know she says she uses oil regularly.
> 
> It seems to be something that would have value. Have you tried a strict regimen of keeping cold pressed coconut oil on the carapace? Since the carapace is totally keratin, oil would have great value in keeping it more supple. That is on my list of experiments for this next year.


 I’ve never tried coconut oil. It’s slways kind of rubbed me up the wrong way because I see it as not natural. That said neither is keeping a tortoise in an indoor enclosure, so I’ve warmed to the method over time. It’s not what I’ll be trying out but let me know how you go on with your experiment please. I considered putting it on a selected few within a group to see if they grew smoother. But then I thought it was pointless because I get smooth to pyramided within same group now, who’s to say the ones that were coconuted weren’t going to grow smooth anyway. The only way to really test the coconut oil is to not allow any cover for them that keeps the carapace moist. 

BTW, pearly also kept her torts in a well planted aquarium with a fogger, extremely wet.


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## Anyfoot (Jan 14, 2019)

@Yvonne G 

This is what I like to see Yvonne. Thin white lines. This one never developed a crevice, It’s nearly 20 months old now. Not sprayed these for about 3 days so that’s why his new keratin is so obvious. He’s hardened off anyway so no way will he pyramid from here on. 
And a photo after spraying them.


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## Anyfoot (Jan 14, 2019)

Markw84 said:


> Maybe at 5 months, we simply have well trained, unafraid, bold baby tortoises who no longer feel the need to be protected?????


Exactly


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 15, 2019)

@Markw84 are these areas of differential bone and scute growth explanations from your own observation, or from published works that come to mind as you review @Anyfoot 's post? Maybe both? Could you please offer the sources from your readings?

I am able to make a slow motion video in my minds eye of the bone filling-in/overtaking the shell's marrow from your explanation. It bears out precisely for a weird type of pyramiding seen by many in developing Pyxis planicauda. In them, as they grow, the side of the coastal scutes nearest the middle of the carapace can pyramid while the rest of the shell does not, giving them a somewhat two keeled look. Thanks much for the visually rich narrative. Exactly the sentences that I made bold. It's an explanation that fits the observation with P. planicauda. 



Markw84 said:


> Love your experiment and investigation here. I have not had a chance to respond to some of your later emails about this project yet as I was out yesterday afternoon. When I got back on the computer now and saw this, though I would respond here.
> 
> So much to respond to. I do see things quite a bit differently than you here. First, perhaps a bit of explanation on bone growth. The framework for bone first starts as cartilage. As vertebrates develop and grow that cartilage is the encased or replace by ossification and becomes bone. For example, when you look at pictures of embryos, what you see as developing skeleton is all cartilage, not bone. *Most of the rib growth in a tortoise shell is going on through endochondral ossification. The cartilage will be repaced by bone, but the process takes quite a while. This will replace the cartilage with bone and the bone will eventually fill in and thicken as it grows. In this tortoise I see mostly cartilage, in the mid to lower costal regions.* Towards the spine you can see thickened areas of paired ribs. That is where bone is building. Fontanelles are not open areas - as "nothing" there. Fontanelles are open areas of bone development where the bone has not yet replaced the cartilage. A good portion of this carapace is still cartilage. In your earlier dissection pictures you can even see the translucent nature of the cartilage as you can see the areolae of the costals through the inside of the carapace. A good portion of the plastron is also cartilage and initially thicker than carapace cartilage protecting the vital organs, yet still somewhat pliable.
> 
> ...


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## Markw84 (Jan 15, 2019)

Will said:


> @Markw84 are these areas of differential bone and scute growth explanations from your own observation, or from published works that come to mind as you review @Anyfoot 's post? Maybe both? Could you please offer the sources from your readings?
> 
> I am able to make a slow motion video in my minds eye of the bone filling-in/overtaking the shell's marrow from your explanation. It bears out precisely for a weird type of pyramiding seen by many in developing Pyxis planicauda. In them, as they grow, the side of the coastal scutes nearest the middle of the carapace can pyramid while the rest of the shell does not, giving them a somewhat two keeled look. Thanks much for the visually rich narrative. Exactly the sentences that I made bold. It's an explanation that fits the observation with P. planicauda.



Will,

The dearth of research about tortoises is daunting! There are no published papers I know of that explain this. Look at pyramiding. There is no place in the world where anyone has ever published anything on the physiology of pyramiding. It is often simply referred to as a mystery no one knows. My theory is the only one I have ever seen or heard of.

So it is the study of many, even marginally related subjects coupled with my own observations that leads me here. General physiology, anatomy and biology. Veterinary medicine. Orthopedics and orthodontics. Embryonic development - and there are some papers on tortoises/turtles there. Anything I can find on keratin growth. Meteorology, passive heating, electromagnetic radiation, and quantum mechanics. Construction. Etc, etc. etc. All of these and more have been areas of quite intensive study that has help piece things together on the pyramiding side. Mix that with decades of intensely watching tortoises grow and a mindset that HAS TO KNOW not just how things work but why!

General physiology in how bones are formed and grow is a lot of what I believe you are asking. Couple that with chelonian anatomy, and how keratin grows. Then lots of observation and theories seeing which ones prove false and don't fit all situations I run into, and which one stands.


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## Anyfoot (Jan 15, 2019)

Anyfoot said:


> I’ve done it. It doesn’t work. They need to be lost in the ground. These 23 I’m raising now, up until about 4 week ago I had to dig down into the substrate to find them. I’m not exaggerating, it could take me a good 20minutes to find them all in a 4x8 vivarium. They would dig into the coir 2 or 3” below the moss. Impossible to see. Feel around by digging fingers in.


@TechnoCheese I did exaggerate. It’s 3x6ft viv.


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## Anyfoot (Jan 17, 2019)

Markw84 said:


> Cartilage is not being deformed. It does not dissolve and get removed by metabolic processes like bone would here. So although the keratin may be drying on top and grow more downward, that downward pressure is not removing cartilage. It remains and the keratin is pushed level. With bone, the pressure on the epithelial layer, as the new keratin fills in next to the epithelial fold, actually causes osteoclast genesis. That means a type of stem cell that epithelial tissue can contain, actually turns into cells that absorb existing bone - osteoclasts. Bone is dissolved. This creates a permanent dip in the bone that cannot "spring back". Bone growth is being redirected. This cannot happen with cartilage. It can only happen when cartilage has ossified into bone.



Was just reading through this again after some thoughts I had. 

If cartilage doesn’t regenerate with osteoclasts and osteoblasts like bone then there can only be 2 options regarding the keratin digging down into the cartilage. 

1, Keep top layer of keratin moist and supple to allow the cartilage to spring back as growth commences. 

2, cartilage must ossify to bone first so the keratin can’t dig down. 


We never see a tortoise that is smooth start to pyramid all of a sudden. Is this because the bone is fully ossified and new keratin cannot over power the bone. This suggests that the pyramiding happens only at the cartilage stage. The new dry keratin forces cartilage to grow down, then the cartilage ossifies to bone at the wrong angle. From then on the bone grows at what ever angle it ossified at. Maybe when we are trying hard to pull a pyramided tort back to new smooth growth we are then redirecting bone through osteoclast and osteoblast. (Just like orthodontics with teeth) 

There is definitely a point where they no longer need that high carapace hydration and still carry on growing smooth. Is it when it’s ossified to bone? I know for a fact that my redfoots will grow at what ever angle their at regardless of carapace hydration from around 2 yrs old


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## Toddrickfl1 (Jan 17, 2019)

Markw84 said:


> I am intrigued by the use of coconut oil. since we are altering their behavior plus - what fun is a tortoise you can never see! - perhaps we need to help with altered ways of retaining moisture. There have been a few example on the forum of one keeper I know who admitted to being sloppy about humidity, had open top, and bathed irregularly but had a quite nice, smooth tortoise - I recall leopard? She said she was good at keeping coconut oil on after every bath that was normally about 2x week. I also always am impressed with @Pearly 's redfoots and I know she says she uses oil regularly.
> 
> It seems to be something that would have value. Have you tried a strict regimen of keeping cold pressed coconut oil on the carapace? Since the carapace is totally keratin, oil would have great value in keeping it more supple. That is on my list of experiments for this next year.


I got a baby Redfoot that hatched Christmas Eve. I've have it setup in a closed chamber with the humidity about 85% and I planned on doing a coconut oil regimen once or twice a week. This is my first attempt at growing a smooth tortoise from the hatchling stage though so I don't really have any experience to compare the results to. Maybe I'll make a thread. I think the thought that in the wild baby tortoises stay dug in and hidden constantly in moist areas vs becoming tame and changing their behavior in captivity would make a lot of sense.


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## Markw84 (Jan 17, 2019)

Anyfoot said:


> Was just reading through this again after some thoughts I had.
> 
> If cartilage doesn’t regenerate with osteoclasts and osteoblasts like bone then there can only be 2 options regarding the keratin digging down into the cartilage.
> 
> ...



Bone pyramids. Cartilage does not. The slight pressure from scute seams causes Bone to deform. Osteoclasts and osteoblasts are types of bone cells. The first breaks down and dissolves bone by freeing the minerals - calcium, and phosphorus back into the bloodstream. The bone cells are actually destroyed and are gone. Osteoblasts are cells that build new bone. These cells build new bone and the cells use calcium and phosphorus to mineralize and the cells change into osteocytes = bone cells. Bone is being added. It is this reshaping of bone that is actually causing it to grow in a new direction. Cartilage will not do this, and the bulk of the tortoise shell is already well mineralized on the whole top half of the carapace. It is only the lower portion of the costals that have the fontanelles that are still mineralizing. This area will not pyramid as cartilage is not reshaped.

I have seen examples of tortoises that start to pyramid later in life. Look at some of the imported giant tortoises and you see it more commonly. The initially grew smooth, but when brought into captivity the new growth starts to pyramid. Created plateaus out of each scute. It is no as common as you need to have a tortoise who initially is raised in optimal conditions that is then put in conditions that are too desiccating.

You can smooth out the direction of growth on older tortoises as well, but it becomes increasingly harder. With enough growth, the plane of the vertebral bones themselves have been altered and they are tipped. New bone growth will be along these lines as there is not even a scute border touching every other bone along the spine. The costals can have amazing changes in pyramiding reduction, though.

Here's a picture I just went out and took of one of my female G platynota The Behler Center raises them quite dry. They are sold on the old school methods believing pyramiding is mainly reduced by slower growth and proper diet. All their G platynota pyramid markedly. I got this gal from them when she was just over 5 years old. Quite pyramided and 5.31" and 414g. Almost three years later, she is now almost 8 ytears old (in 3 weeks) You can see the tremendous almost totally flat growth now in her costals. The vertebrals have moderated but still not smooth. She is now 11.78" and 4600g. Over 11 times her weight in growth in 3 years and about as smooth as I think you can reverse pyramiding that was 5 years in the making.


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## Anyfoot (Jan 17, 2019)

Mark.

On this tortoise I dissected, all the carapace and plastron is still floppy, it’s got no rigidity as bone would. Is it still cartilage or bone, Or is it in the process of ossifying, so a mix of both.

When they first hatch out is the carapace and plastron still cartilage? This would explain why they all grow smooth up to around 5 months old, Is it around 5 months old when the cartilage becomes a higher percentage of bone mass? Hence a chance of pyramiding kicking in.
Also if, let’s say it’s only cartilage up to 4 months old then what’s the point of super hydrating them at that age because cartilage can’t pyramid.

Obviously cartilage doesn’t turn to bone over night. But I have noticed pyramiding comes in around the same time they start to harden off.


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## Markw84 (Jan 18, 2019)

Anyfoot said:


> Mark.
> 
> On this tortoise I dissected, all the carapace and plastron is still floppy, it’s got no rigidity as bone would. Is it still cartilage or bone, Or is it in the process of ossifying, so a mix of both.
> 
> ...


Craig

We see plenty of baby tortoise that start pyramiding from their very first scute seam expansion. By 5 months tortoise raised dry are extremely pyramided if they are actively growing.

Most of the carapace is already ossifying when the tortoise hatches. It is a gradual process of fully mineralizing and thickening that does take years though. Young bones are quite supple. Even in humans, bone ossification of the cartilage model begins in the second trimester of fetal development and continues through the mid teens until the skeleton is fully ossified.

So what you are seeing is mostly very young bone. The cartilage that forms the model the skeleton takes, is in the process of ossifying. The young bone is easily redirected as it is more actively growing throughout. This would be especially true along the spine and the tops of the ribs. The lower half of the ribs are growing outward and spreading to join. The bottoms are still pure cartilage as well as the spaces between the lower half.

So it would be bone actively in the ossifying and the growing stages that would seem the most susceptible to pyramiding pressures. It would be the redirected osteoblasts and pressure induced osteoclasts that form in bone to make the changes.


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## Toddrickfl1 (Jan 18, 2019)

Might be a dumb question but are there different types of humidity? Like would the humidity affect the Tortoise differently out in the open air (like in a barren closed chamber) vs humidity in a burrow or leaf litter? I'm not the most sciencey person but this pyramiding thing fascinates me.


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## Markw84 (Jan 18, 2019)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> Might be a dumb question but are there different types of humidity? Like would the humidity affect the Tortoise differently out in the open air (like in a barren closed chamber) vs humidity in a burrow or leaf litter? I'm not the most sciencey person but this pyramiding thing fascinates me.


Great question and I think a lot of the root of many people's problems.

Air circulation around the carapace certainly aids in desiccation. The whole Idea of using a fan to cool you down is that it is the evaporation from your skin that cools you. As you get into higher and higher humidity, this effect become less and less as there is no evaporation as you get to 100%. Up to that - there is some relative to the humidity level. Stopping air circulation/movement, dramatically reduces this. When we put lights in our enclosures - even fluorescents - there is heat around the bulb. A T5 runs at about 100°. A low watt incadescent is way hotter than that. So the air closer to the light is warmed and there is a drafting effect always created. The humidity is quite different near the light vs away from the light in our enclosures if we have a heat gradient. For example, in an enclosure at 85° and 90% RH, if it is 100° under the basking light, the relative humidity there is actually 57%. And you have open air and some convection current of air there.

Under leaf litter, or a thick plant cover, there is no air exchange. It is the coolest part of the enclosure and humidity is highest around that location. With moist substrate, humdity there will stay 100% - at dew point. Virtually no desiccation can occur.


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## Toddrickfl1 (Jan 18, 2019)

I'm going to share my story. When I got my Tort I was expecting a hatchling and had a small closed chamber setup. However the breeder didn't make it to the show and I ended up coming home with a juvenile Redfoot instead. Murphy weighed about 350g when I got him close to 4 inches. This is the day I got him.


The closed chamber I had setup was really too small for him. I kept him in it for only about 3 weeks. @Anyfoot me and you had a conversation months ago at this time and you had mentioned it would be hard to get Murphy to start pyramiding at this point because he was already past the hatchling stage. So I went with that (even though when I try to mention that in groups or even here I get chastised lol) and I built an open table for him. I told myself if he starts Pyramiding I would convert back over to the closed chamber. He has ended up living in this container since February of 2018 except on my days off in the summer he went in a pen outside during the days and back to the enclosure nights. We don't always have high humidity here in GA. In the past year he has grown to be a little over 6" a 1000g and perfectly smooth! I must mention that his enclosure is kept in a room with 3 Large open top fish tanks so there is 50% humidity consistently in the room. Also, he's not a really big eater and I'm not entirely sure he's CB either. I was told he was an import, a "Farmed tortoise". I also do weekly soaks and coconut oil application. All these things could possibly be factors. I may be a bad Tort father because honestly, I haven't really made to much effort worrying about humidity. It's baffling to me though, because I've seen posts with similar sized torts being kept in closed chambers, yet still mildly pyramiding? This has led me to believe that there has to be other factors at play with Pyramiding besides just lack of humidity. I'm actually tempted to raise my new hatchling in the exact same fashion I just don't want to end up with a disfigured tortoise. Here are some recent pics of Murphy


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## Anyfoot (Jan 18, 2019)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> I'm going to share my story. When I got my Tort I was expecting a hatchling and had a small closed chamber setup. However the breeder didn't make it to the show and I ended up coming home with a juvenile Redfoot instead. Murphy weighed about 350g when I got him close to 4 inches. This is the day I got him.
> View attachment 262663
> View attachment 262664
> The closed chamber I had setup was really too small for him. I kept him in it for only about 3 weeks. @Anyfoot me and you had a conversation months ago at this time and you had mentioned it would be hard to get Murphy to start pyramiding at this point because he was already past the hatchling stage. So I went with that (even though when I try to mention that in groups or even here I get chastised lol) and I built an open table for him. I told myself if he starts Pyramiding I would convert back over to the closed chamber. He has ended up living in this container since February of 2018 except on my days off in the summer he went in a pen outside during the days and back to the enclosure nights. We don't always have high humidity here in GA. In the past year he has grown to be a little over 6" a 1000g and perfectly smooth! I must mention that his enclosure is kept in a room with 3 Large open top fish tanks so there is 50% humidity consistently in the room. Also, he's not a really big eater and I'm not entirely sure he's CB either. I was told he was an import, a "Farmed tortoise". I also do weekly soaks and coconut oil application. All these things could possibly be factors. I may be a bad Tort father because honestly, I haven't really made to much effort worrying about humidity. It's baffling to me though, because I've seen posts with similar sized torts being kept in closed chambers, yet still mildly pyramiding? This has led me to believe that there has to be other factors at play with Pyramiding besides just lack of humidity. I'm actually tempted to raise my new hatchling in the exact same fashion I just don't want to end up with a disfigured tortoise. Here are some recent pics of Murphy
> ...



I’m not taking anything away from you, your care or your beautiful tortoise. If you haven’t raised it from the egg you do not have a direct comparison to learn from imo. I believe the first few weeks, months sets out the path of growth. Anyone can get a 4” import and it will grow on smooth unless it’s been neglected to the extent it’s on deaths door. They can just tolerate most climates at that age. 
I think you should some how get a very very young hatchling or ask around to buy some eggs. I gave a friend 5 eggs that were about 4 months old so she could start from scratch. 3 hatched a few wks back. Maybe that’s an option for you.


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## Toddrickfl1 (Jan 18, 2019)

Anyfoot said:


> I’m not taking anything away from you, your care or your beautiful tortoise. If you haven’t raised it from the egg you do not have a direct comparison to learn from imo. I believe the first few weeks, months sets out the path of growth. Anyone can get a 4” import and it will grow on smooth unless it’s been neglected to the extent it’s on deaths door. They can just tolerate most climates at that age.
> I think you should some how get a very very young hatchling or ask around to buy some eggs. I gave a friend 5 eggs that were about 4 months old so she could start from scratch. 3 hatched a few wks back. Maybe that’s an option for you.


That's what I figured from our last conversation. Not to many people have this thought though. Most people swear a Tortoise will pyramid at any stage if not kept humid. @Anyfoot I actually bought an egg from Tortstork and hatched it myself. It hatched Christmas Eve.


So this is my first REAL go around at raising a smooth tortoise from the egg. Right now I've got it in a closed chamber at about 86 degrees and 90% humidity. I am tempted to discard the close chamber and raise this one in the same fashion as Murphy just to see what happens. I just don't want to end up with a disfigured tortoise. I did try something different though I placed my heat source outside the enclosure after hearing about someone else who has had success at growing smooth Tortoises this way. My thinking was less desiccation on the carapace from the CHE maybe?


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## Markw84 (Jan 18, 2019)

Craig. I have seen several examples of tortoises that begin to pyramid later in life when started smooth. I like to keep pictures as I run into them as examples. It is harder to see the results of this as it is pretty rare for someone to get a smooth tortoise and not also get tips on how it was kept up to that point. Here's a few examples though..







The last one obviouly had a dramatic change. MBD even set in dramatically late in life. The rear pelvic girdle is not sunken as much, yet all new growth was mostly in the front portion and the rear portion still started sinking.

@Toddrickfl1 My theory is that pyramiding is caused by desiccation of new keratin growth as the seams expand. Humidity is the "more natural" way to help minimize that. In the wild they stay covered to find that and keep from desiccating. In captivity we often find altered behaviors where they no longer feel a need to hide. Coconut oil certainly makes sense to me as a way to also help control that, especially when we have altered behaviors of captivity.


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## Anyfoot (Jan 19, 2019)

Markw84 said:


> Craig. I have seen several examples of tortoises that begin to pyramid later in life when started smooth. I like to keep pictures as I run into them as examples. It is harder to see the results of this as it is pretty rare for someone to get a smooth tortoise and not also get tips on how it was kept up to that point. Here's a few examples though..
> 
> View attachment 262698
> View attachment 262699
> ...


#2 is typical of a captive tort pyramiding aroundcthe 5 month mark. They look that this at about 18months old. 

#3 was never smooth and growth pattern has changed through different care. In a few years the newer growth will be more obvious, but still the same angle as the first growth. 

#4 has had some serious neglect in its life. 

#1 has me puzzled. That at some point was a smooth wild tortoise. From what we can see only the front vertebral and 2 front coastals are pyramided. Maybe a deformity of some sort. 

If never seen a perfectly smooth grown wild redfoot tortoise pyramid later in life. Usually the new growth carries on at the same angle but at a lower level. Which I always thought was because the new keratin was kept too dry and wasn’t allowed to swell. But from the dissection it proves the keratin doesn’t swell. It’s a thin constant layer that follows the contour of the bone. Let me find a photo.


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## Anyfoot (Jan 19, 2019)

You can see on this one where it’s been taken into captivity. The new growth is perfect but on a lower level. It follows the same angle as the old growth.


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## Anyfoot (Jan 19, 2019)

Mark. 

Just found this one searching the net. 
Trying to read the carapace. 

I would say this was a 4” import that took that lower level of growth in immediate captive care, Then it endured a pyramiding stage and the newest growth is now level again. So this tortoise would prove they can pyramid at any stage of life.
However, was this animal endured extreme dry conditions with growth or is there some past diet issue going on. It looks slightly deformed due to captive care.


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## Anyfoot (Jan 31, 2019)

@Markw84 

If we had a smooth tortoise, then let it get do dehydrated it had sunken scutes. What as actually happened to make the scutes sunken?
Is it just the bone that has dried out too much and withered?


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