# Dine With Shamu, Orca kills trainer



## alfiethetortoise (Feb 25, 2010)

Well, i have been looking forward to going to take Ava to 'dine with Shamu' on our holiday. Then this happens...

"The killer whale that drowned his female trainer yesterday will not be put down even though he has been involved in two other human deaths, according to staff at SeaWorld in Florida. 

Tilikum, a huge bull orca which has spent 27 years in captivity, grabbed Dawn Brancheau as she was affectionately rubbing his head at the side of the whale pool at around 2pm. Watching tourists were eating their buffet lunches after the daily 'Dine with Shamu' whale show. 

Two holidaymakers taking photos at the pool's underwater viewing area described how they saw Tilikum circling round and round below the surface with Ms Brancheau in his jaws, her face bloodied, and turning her over and over. 

"It was terrible. It's very difficult to see the image," Joao Lucio da Costa Sobrinho, 28, told the local Orlando Sentinel newspaper. 

An alarm sounded and SeaWorld staff led the tourists out of the viewing area, some of them screaming and with children crying. 

Last night relatives of 40-year-old Ms Brancheau said that she would not have wanted Tilikum to be punished for what he had done. One of SeaWorld Orlando's most experienced trainers, she had worked at the park since 1994, and was married but childless. 

"She loved the whales like her children, she loved all of them," said Diane Gross, Ms Brancheau's older sister. "They all had personalities, good days and bad days." 

Marion Loverde, Ms Brancheau's mother, said that her daughter had wanted to work with whales ever since she visited SeaWorld at the age of nine. 

"Everyone knew that was her dream," said Ms Loverde, of Indiana. 

Chuck Tompkins, Ms Brancheau's supervisor, said that she had understood the risks of the job and of working with Tilikum, who was usually kept isolated and was rated as a potential risk to trainers because of the earlier deaths. 

"We recognised that he was different... She loved what she did and she loved being with the animal," said Mr Tompkins. 

He added that no decision had been made yet about what will happen to Tilikum, such as transferring him to another aquarium, but that the animal would not be put down. 

We don't know what was going through the killer whale's head. It just got done doing a wonderful session with Dawn... his behaviour was great... that's the reason that she was rubbing his head," said Mr Tompkins. 

Tilikum was captured off the coast of Iceland in 1983 and has had a controversial life. In 1991 he and two other orca were blamed for drowning one of their trainers, a woman part-timer, who lost her balance and fell into their pool while they were performing at Sealife of the Pacific, a park near Victoria in British Colombia that has since closed. 

Sold to SeaWorld Orlando in 1992 as a stud animal, in 1999 Tilikum was involved in a second incident when a tourist either stayed behind in the park after hours or broke in and apparently attempted to swim with him. 

The man's naked body, bruised and scratched from being dragged round the walls of the pool, was found draped over Tilikum's back the following morning. Despite his injuries doctors said he had probably drowned after suffering hypothermia in the chilly, 13C (55F) waters. 

Because of Tilikum's size, at five tonnes the largest killer whale in captivity, and because of the previous deaths, only about a dozen of the park's 29 trainers were authorised to work with him. 

The tragedy happened as Ms Brancheau had just finished describing the performance the audience was about to watch. 

"He just took off like a bat out of you known what, took off really fast in the tank and he came back, shot up in the air, grabbed the trainer by the waist and started thrashing her around," Victoria Biniak told a local TV station. "He was thrashing her around pretty good. It was violent. 

"The sirens were going off. People were running out." 

Her husband Gary added: "He dragged her underneath the water and wouldn't let her come up. The force by which the woman was pulled into the water... her shoes were pulled off, it was terrible. 

"Generally they don't allow any of the trainers to swim with this particular whale because he's so large and has a different temperament." 

Eldon Skaggs, another audience member, said he heard that during an earlier show Tilikum was not responding to directions. Others who attended the earlier show said the whale was behaving like an "ornery child", contradicting Mr Tompkins. 

Ms Brancheau is the second orca trainer to die in the last two months. On Christmas Eve Alexis Martinez Hernandez, 28, died after his ribcage was crushed when his whale landed on him as they rehearsed an unusual routine. The whale, a 14-year-old called Keto, had been transferred to the Loro Parque on Tenerife from SeaWorld. 

There are thought to be 42 orca held in captivity in aquaria around the world. Animal rights groups have condemned the practice. 

"For years, Peta has been calling on SeaWorld to stop confining oceangoing mammals to an area that to them is like the size of a bathtub," said a spokesman for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. 

"We have also been asking the park to stop forcing the animals to perform silly tricks over and over again." 

Dr Naomi Rose, a marine mammal scientist with the Humane Society of the United States, said: "Using these animals in entertainment is not good for animals or people. Sadly, we've seen evidence of that again today. Whales and dolphins are large, intelligent, long-lived, socially complex predators who often hunt cooperatively and are capable of swimming a hundred miles in a day. They are unsuited to permanent confinement, often exhibiting neurotic behaviours in these settings." 

**************************************************

I guess this could easily be a debate topic. But perhaps a lesson will be learn't, you can't take a wild animal and make it tame....


----------



## Kymiie (Feb 25, 2010)

A few years ago I saw a dolphin show and I was like WOW this is great!
Now I am older and no what goes on I see it as animal cruelty to make money but only on a small scale, I think horse raching is worst! Too right they should not put the whale down..well I think not anyway!

Are you still going even though this has happened? I would!

xx


----------



## alfiethetortoise (Feb 25, 2010)

I have always been interested in Orca's since "free willy". We are certainly still going to go to sea world orlando, but i think we may miss the 'dine with shamu' (you pay more to have your lunch right in front of the orca's) . At the moment the Orca shows have all been 'posponed', i hope they will have resumed in the next couple of weeks.


----------



## chadk (Feb 25, 2010)

Kymmie, you said it is animal cruelity, then you said "I would still go!". Did I read that right??


----------



## spikethebest (Feb 25, 2010)

i have personally seen these shows in the san diego sea world, and i think the whales are treated properly, and a lot of them come from the wild injuried, and they nurse them back to full health. the animal benefits, and the general public gets educated about them. i think both wins. just my opinion. i love animals just as much as most people here, but i think some should be in captivity for the benefit of the ones in the wild.


----------



## alfiethetortoise (Feb 25, 2010)

It's a great hame the woman died, but she knew the risks involved in her job. A wild animal will always be wild and do what it likes. I hope the people can learn something from this tragic event.

At our local zoo they have sumatrian tigers, which have made lots of money for the sumatrian trust, to the benefit of all the other tigers still in the wild. Zoo's have tough licencing laws in most countries (wasen't the case in Beijing, massive animals, tiny enclosures) and i like going to the zoo


----------



## Kymiie (Feb 25, 2010)

chadk said:


> Kymmie, you said it is animal cruelity, then you said "I would still go!". Did I read that right??



Yes but it didnt mean that, i meant for alfie the tortoise to still go on her holidays even though this has happened!
xx


----------



## Yvonne G (Feb 25, 2010)

I live in a cave and really am not up-to-date on current events, but I've always assumed that the whales at Sea World and places like that were rehabilitated animals, not captured animals.


----------



## egyptiandan (Feb 25, 2010)

Nope I'm afraid most of the Orcas not born in captivity were caught in the wild just to supply oceanaria. They do do a bit of rehabing dolphins, pilot whales and Manatees, but never heard of them doing that with Killer whales.
I don't mind seeing them in captivity, but to make them do tricks for peoples enjoyment, turns my stomach. I'd rather see and be awed by the animal, not by the tricks it was made to do.

Danny


----------



## terryo (Feb 25, 2010)

I won't even touch this one.


----------



## chadk (Feb 25, 2010)

If they are going to be in captivity (another topic), I think the 'tricks' are part of their daily routine so they have a 'job'. Just letting them freely swim with no purpose or job in those small areas would probably be very bad for them (like putting a working breed dog in a kennel all day). But then maybe that is just their justification for turning them into show animals... But I bet there is at least a little truth in it...


----------



## egyptiandan (Feb 25, 2010)

Very cool website detailing the 42 Killer Whales in captivity right now. It seem 13 of the 42 are WC, the rest are CB. http://www.orcahome.de/orcastat.htm

You can enrich an animals life in captivity without them having to do tricks. I totally understand the coming up and turning over type thing for taking temperatures, getting blood, doing ultasounds and such. That helps with the animals well being. 

Danny


----------



## Laura (Feb 25, 2010)

The 'tricks' are to keep them in condition. To make them get the excersise they need. Of course there are some that are for show and Aw only, and I think those are slowly being stopped. They try to teach them things to do on cue to show and educate the public what they would do in the wild. Most of the killer whales, these days inthe states, have been born in captivity, with only the older ones being taken from the wild many years ago. Like the one in this incident. He is an older male, taken at a young age and has now sired over a dozen babies. He is a large dominant male. He was not behaving earlier, the trainers no longer went in the water with him, he was either pissed off or bored and wanted to play or he was getting back at, the trainer. :-( we may never know. Due to his past and his behavior that day, the trainer probably should not have been on the platform with him. Very sad. Tragic and terrifying for her. I hope it was quick. When we choose to 'play' with exotics and work with them, it is a risk we assume. I know. Ive been there done that. As some of my pictures in the get to know me thread showed... The general public should never be allowed to get to close to them for PR photo shoots etc. The animals area at risk as much as the people. If something happens, the animal pays. 
Our Tortises are all 'wild' animals as well. They are not domesticated. They just arent as dangerous as a 12,000 pound predator of the ocean. Besides in captivty, i dont think a killer whale has ever killed a human in the wild. They arent like sharks. I love seeing them so close up, its spirtual. I would love to see them in the wild tho. As for being in captivity.. I can be onthe fence.. They are so big and in such a small area, but what they do to help those in the wild and to bring the awareness to people who would otherwise have No clue, is priceless. Just like someone said earlier, the lions and tigers and other animals in zoos, have done more for the ones in the wild, then pictures can do. I know people in the Conservation World that do what the do because or a close up expereince as a child in school or a Zoo. Not all Zoos are bad places. Captivity can be much better then the wild in many cases. Free food, care, no predators etc. Animals dont need the huge expanses they have in the wild. They dont need to hunt, forage, its provided. 
As for the trainer who was killed. May her friends and family find peace in knowing she died doing what she loved. As for the whale. He prob should be retired.. Not sure how or where.. I wish he could be released.. but not sure he would survive..


----------



## alfiethetortoise (Feb 25, 2010)

I enjoy seeing the animals, but i think the 'tricks' are more to amaze children, and to bring in the revenue that it costs to keep the animals in the first place.

Most Orca's are caught in Norway or iceland, injured and brought back to health. From 1976-1997, 55 whales were taken from the wild in Iceland, 19 from Japan, and three from Argentina. Live captures fell dramatically in the 1990s, and by 1999, about 40% of the 48 animals on display in the world were captive born. A growing number of theme-park orcas have been born in captivity. Kalina, a female orca born in September 1985 at SeaWorld Orlando, was the first captive orca calf to survive more than few days. Kalina's mother is an Icelandic female named Katina, and her father, Winston (also known as Ramu III), was a Pacific Southern Resident, making Kalina an Atlantic/Pacific hybrid Ã¢â‚¬â€ a unique situation that would not have occurred in the wild.

Tillikum, the animal in question, was captured off Iceland in November 1983. He is the largest Orca in captivity and also the most successful sire in captivity, with 13 offspring, 10 of which are still alive.


----------



## egyptiandan (Feb 25, 2010)

Here are some sobring facts about how long (or is it how short) Killer Whales live in captivity. They are still being caught around the world and caught animals are still not doing well after being caught.
Just makes you wonder 
http://www.orcahome.de/orcadead.htm
http://www.orcahome.de/impact.htm

Danny


----------



## alfiethetortoise (Feb 25, 2010)

Yes, it is shocking.

I liked your link but it was a little missleading. It compared date of birth with the date of capture. Which means they could have caught a 30 year old male, that lived another 15 years, which actually is a good age in the wild. It was seemingly infering that the Orca in question was young at capture, which was probably not the case. And 50 is a good age for a female, 40 for a male. Though females have been recorded at 80 years old 

Also, did you know that infant morality in Orca whales is very high. Around 45% do not survive in the while beyond the age of two. So, you could almost expect the same to happen in captivity (ok, not the same, maybe you would expect better odds). Problems occur in labour, during labour, with feeding the young (for two years). So there are no predators in the aquarium. But this doesn't eliminate pregnancy and birth related problems.....


----------



## Meg90 (Feb 25, 2010)

Out of 153 orcas listed on that first site, of whales deceased in captivity, over 30 of those were miscarried, or still born calves. I don't even know how that statistic was published with over 20% of their dead whales being babies that lived no longer than three days. 

I don't support the harvesting of any whale. Like Roachman, and others have said, most of the whales taken into captivity now are injured animals that are nursed back to health.

The whales live as comfortably as we can make them. I'm sure research on enrichment and proper environment hasn't ceased.

They aren't trained in a physically painful way--positive reinforcement is the only tool.

I don't see people crying over elephants in circuses. They are beaten nearly since birth and forced to preform unnatural feats.

The tricks a whale preforms in a show are all naturally exhibited behaviors that have been associated with a cue, so they can do them on command. I don't see anything wrong with that--its enriching for the animal, exercise, and educates the public.


----------



## dmmj (Feb 25, 2010)

I am always amazed at some people who say they are shocked that this happened, not pointing fingers at anyone, and I always say to them "Hello wild animals they are not tame and they do kill"


----------



## ChiKat (Feb 25, 2010)

egyptiandan said:


> You can enrich an animals life in captivity without them having to do tricks.



I completely agree. I am against the use of animals for entertainment (in most situations) but that's just me 



Meg90 said:


> I don't see people crying over elephants in circuses. They are beaten nearly since birth and forced to preform unnatural feats.



Funny you mentioned that, because I was just about to bring it up!  I will never take my future children to the circus.

And don't even get me started on bull-fighting!


----------



## Candy (Feb 25, 2010)

alfiethetortoise said:


> Yes, it is shocking.
> 
> I liked your link but it was a little missleading. It compared date of birth with the date of capture. Which means they could have caught a 30 year old male, that lived another 15 years, which actually is a good age in the wild. It was seemingly infering that the Orca in question was young at capture, which was probably not the case. And 50 is a good age for a female, 40 for a male. Though females have been recorded at 80 years old
> 
> Also, did you know that infant morality in Orca whales is very high. Around 45% do not survive in the while beyond the age of two. So, you could almost expect the same to happen in captivity (ok, not the same, maybe you would expect better odds). Problems occur in labour, during labour, with feeding the young (for two years). So there are no predators in the aquarium. But this doesn't eliminate pregnancy and birth related problems.....



This whale was brought back from New Zealand and captured as a baby there was no mistaking that. I listening to an expert of Killer Whales today and she didn't say what you're posting. In fact she said the complete opposite. Please if you can post your information like Danny did so I can read where these facts are coming from. And as for them not making it in the wild so what? Are they better off here doing tricks for my kids and being kept in containers that are too small for them? We are not God and we should not decide that it's better for them to be caught then to live or die in the wild.


----------



## alfiethetortoise (Feb 26, 2010)

Candy said:


> And as for them not making it in the wild so what? Are they better off here doing tricks for my kids and being kept in containers that are too small for them? We are not God and we should not decide that it's better for them to be caught then to live or die in the wild.



You know, it is very interesting that you can dismiss the 35-50% of Orca's that will die naturally in the wild in the first two years of life. But when an Orca is sick or dies in an Aquarium, then you assume that it's the aqurium's fault. And by your own standards, what are you doing with a tortoise? It's a wild animal. Best to set it free, since we are not God and should not decide what's better for them. And if you say your tortoise was captive bred, well, so are the Orca's. They don't harvest from the wild anymore. They breed through breeding programmes....

Here is the link: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orca 

Tillikum the Orca is not from New Zealand. In fact in all the articles i read yesterday (which was a lot) none of them said this. He was captured off Iceland, in November 1983. 

Here is the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilikum_(whale)#Tilikum


From a teaching perspective, children learn best though seeing the animals first hand. In most instances, it wont be possible for schools to hop in the Yhat and go off Whale spotting. An aquarium is a happy medium. And when a child has seen the animal, you can bet they will be interested.... and then you can bring your Attenborough DVD's out, if you feel the need....


----------



## Kymiie (Feb 26, 2010)

As far as I know and havnt been to one anyway I think again I say I think, animals here in the UK are banned from being in circuses, but as I say not really looked it up.. but think I will now xx


----------



## alfiethetortoise (Feb 26, 2010)

Hey Kymiie, i just did a quick seach about Elephants, and The Great British Circus in Newark, had 3 Elephants preforming last year. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/feb/27/circus-elephants-rspca 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/7916233.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/jul/29/animalwelfare.world 

And the other link, the story of Anne, the last of the 54 Elephants britain once had, before the three news ones appeared in Newark last year....

And if that circus is back in town (round about now) maybe there will be more news to come...


----------



## chadk (Feb 26, 2010)

I've seen lots of cool animals here in the Puget Sound. Once I was in a 14ft row boat (had a 9.9hp kicker\motor) with my dad fishing off whidbey island and we had a pod of killer whales surround us. My dad was pretty freaked out, but I was loving it.


----------



## stells (Feb 26, 2010)

What continues to amaze me is the people that seemingly agree with this practice... have a problem with tortoises living indoors... people making money from tortoises.... etc... whats the difference?

My local circus... has a no animal policy and has done for a few years now... so i can now take my children to the circus... where before i wouldn't...


----------



## Meg90 (Feb 26, 2010)

Stells---you and I think alot a like. I got into this debate on another forum, and brought up the keeping of reptiles in their minimum space requirements. I had someone tell me that my tortoises were "domesticated" and did not miss the wild--that my WC male was considered domesticated as well. 

My big question was how can someone cry over the whales, when they turn around and in their living room, is an animal in a box (a nice, planted box) that would usually have an entire country to roam on. Is it not the same thing on a smaller scale?

We do not keep whales in bathtubs. Their enclosures are always being reworked, policies are changing and as it has been said in the new article, sea world has never even been fined for mistreating their animals.

Tilikum is also safe. The park announced yesterday that his presence is too important to the other whales, and he is too large a part of their breeding program to be put down like a dog.

And their is a difference between a show tank, and the tanks where the animals live.


----------



## Jacqui (Feb 26, 2010)

stells said:


> What continues to amaze me is the people that seemingly agree with this practice... have a problem with tortoises living indoors... people making money from tortoises.... etc... whats the difference?
> 
> My local circus... has a no animal policy and has done for a few years now... so i can now take my children to the circus... where before i wouldn't...



A circus with NO animals??? To me, that was why I always wanted to see one as a child.

I think that as in all areas dealing with animals, there has been a lot of improvement on the understanding, care and training of "entertainment" animals. We don't always see it, because to keep the aww/fear factors going we still have the whips and things out more for show and the animals need to show some aggression. That is what draws people.

However Seaworld is a prime example of one, which is clearly showing folks what can be done with positive training rather than punishment. They still draw in large crowds, which brings in money in many forms. With that money they keep improving the quality of life for the animals. Money that is used to gain huge amounts of knowledge about these animals that other wise would still be unknown.

In the race to maybe save the animals still in the wild is the price of a few captives not worth it? How many youths have been inspired by just one visit to a Seaworld? In how many ways have animals of all kinds benefited from something born from that visit? ....and yes, as somebody already brought up, isn't this also what we are trying to do in our own small ways with our turtles and tortoises?

It's sad about the trainer, but she know going in what she was dealing with working around the whales, even more so with this animal. Any body who works around any animal, be it whale, lion, pit bull, poodle, bee, or snapping turtle (and man), should know they always have the potential to do harm, to even kill.

She died doing something she loved, living her dream. How many of us will ever be so lucky?


----------



## DoctorCosmonaut (Feb 26, 2010)

If they are hurt, or socially incapable of being accepted into a pod, I get that they've got to go somewhere... But when people treat them like they are part of a show, when they are still unpredictable, dangerous animals, something is going to happen sooner or later... And heck, I'd hate to live in something the size of a jacuzzi, I'd probably be all grumpy from being cramped and prodded too!


----------



## Candy (Feb 26, 2010)

alfiethetortoise said:


> Candy said:
> 
> 
> > And as for them not making it in the wild so what? Are they better off here doing tricks for my kids and being kept in containers that are too small for them? We are not God and we should not decide that it's better for them to be caught then to live or die in the wild.
> ...



I wasn't posting to get you so upset I was actually wanting the information from you, but I have to say that the sites you posted didn't give me the information about percentages of breeding in captivity. I'm not going to get into the tortoise debate again we've done that one before in other threads just ask Chad.  I do not care if nature takes it's course and whales die in the wild, but I do care if we capture them and they die from that (which more then a few have if you read Danny's posted website). I remember my field trips to the LA Zoo as a child and yes I guess that I did like seeing animals up close, but did anyone tell me when I was 6 or 7 who captured these animals and what they went through to get to that zoo? Did they sugar coat it because I was a child and they thought that that was teaching? If we are going to teach children the right ways then lets tell them everything and not keep the bad stuff out of it. You have to lay out all of the information to people just not the parts that try to make your point. My husband is a high school teacher and he brings home documentaries that teach more then anything I ever learned from school. Actually he likes them because the students tend to listen better to them then to him.  I feel the same way about Animal Planet. My 12 year old son and I were watching it just last night and saw things that so spectacular it was filmed in Japan and it and the information provided were priceless. It was beautiful and my son loved it. I guarantee he learned more from that one show then he would have ever learned going to a zoo.

And as for the teaching perspective...I don't wait for schools to take my children on field trips so they can learn. Number one teachers are very busy when they are watching over twenty children at a time. I can very well teach them by taking them myself and that's what was meant by my comment. If you want to see a whale you can go on a boat and maybe you'll see one maybe you won't it's the chance you take with nature. Now, will I teach my children to never go and see captive raised killer whales? I won't know that until they're grown, but I'm hoping so.


----------



## terryo (Feb 26, 2010)

Candy, you are saying everything I want to say, so I'm not even going to post anything. I don't have a thing to add to what you've said already. I feel the same way. All my sons are grown now and my last is in college, and they all feel the same way I do. I never sugar-coated anything and always taught them about the injustices that were inflicted on the animal world.


----------



## Candy (Feb 26, 2010)

Thanks Terry I know that you truly love the animal itself and that's refreshing to say the least. I am so happy to hear that your boys grew up like you. I can't help but be confused from some of the replies about how big the containers are that hold these animals at Sea World. They have been showing them for a couple of days now unless I'm seeing something different then everyone else they're too small for them. I might be wrong, but I should think that there about the equivalent of keeping a full size Sulcata or Aldabra or even a Galapagos in a 10' x 10' area for the rest of it's life. I know that people fight over this issue so why is it O.K. to keep the whales like this? And I can't imagine what they would have to do to that water that they perform in to keep it so blue. What chemical are they using there? And from what I was reading from the website that alfiethetortoise posted the moms spend generations with their young. What do they do with the babies in captivity? How confused must the babies be when they are taken away from the mother? How would that be beneficial to either one mother or baby? We don't think about these things when it comes to pleasing ourselves first. Anyway Terry now I'm just rambling on, but thanks again.


----------



## galvinkaos (Feb 26, 2010)

Candy, the pics they have shown are a holding pen between the show pen and the regular pen. It is small but it is intended to transition them from the holding pen and the training/show tank. Yes it is small.
I read but was staying away from posting. I commend Sea World for the rehab work they do with injured ocean animals. They have the parks to help offset the costs of their rehab work. They also provide education to people who would never go see those animals in the wild. They are the first ones called when a whale or a seal washes up on a beach. Pelicans and lots of other creatures have benefited from Sea World. Unfortunately there are creatures that have been harvested from the ocean that can never be returned because they are too dependent on humans. They have forgotten how to feed themselves and are too comfortable to be safe from predators. I am more upset with Japanese whalers slaughtering whales than I am with whales in captivity at Sea World.

Oh and in my opinion no animal should be punished for a normal behavior, even if it hurts or kills someone. Instinct is very dificult to stop. My condolences to her family but every one should have a job they love.
Dawna


----------



## Candy (Feb 26, 2010)

I've been looking for a while now on trying to find out the size of the so called holding pens that these Killer Whales are kept in. If they're kept in something bigger then what I have been shown can someone please post a site that tells how big they are. A lot of you are saying that they're bigger then what they are showing on the T.V., but I can't find anything that proves that. How do you know that they are bigger and how big are they? 
Please let me know so I can see what you're talking about.


----------



## alfiethetortoise (Feb 27, 2010)

The Pens they have been showing are the 'show' pens, not the normal living quarters. I can't seem to find a site but i'll keep on searching... I can only assume that such information might be found on a Sea Wold information thing, or possibly a guidebook. 

Sadly, when Orca's are bred in cpativity the captive Orca often treats it's foal with aggression. This is because the Orca hasn't experienced what will happen to it's foal. It's safer to move the foal out, than to leave it with an aggressive mother. The babies and mothers are generally kept in the same aquarium where possible. Here is a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_orcas

It has transpired that Tilikum the Orca will not be punished, and investigation continues, the whales will be back on show from today but no animal trainers will enter the water untill the investigation has finished.


----------



## savanna (Feb 27, 2010)

it is not true a baby whale is a calf


----------



## cdmay (Feb 27, 2010)

_


Candy said:



I can't help but be confused from some of the replies about how big the containers are that hold these animals at Sea World. They have been showing them for a couple of days now unless I'm seeing something different then everyone else they're too small for them.

Click to expand...

_


Candy said:


> Candy, to get a relative view of the animals in their enclosures go to BING maps and look at the satellite images of Sea World.
> You can see a complex of tanks that hold the orcas and you can even see two of them in these tanks. The first thing that you discover is that the main arena pool where the show takes place is by far the largest of the whale enclosures. But all of these habitats are of course, entirely too small for such an animal.
> I have not read most of the posts on this thread so if I am repeating what others said I'm sorry... although I love the idea of Sea World as a world class aquarium (for fish and turtles) I have always felt that the keeping of numerous marine mammals in captivity for profit is inherently wrong. But what is worse are the NAUSEATING 'shows' that orcas, dolphins and sea lions are subjected to.
> Sea World has accomplished some incredible things with large scale filtration, aquarium design and pool construction. They have also done some wonderful work rescuing and then rehabilitating injured marine mammals like manatees and dolphins as well as sea turtles. But Sea World's exploitation of higher marine life (like the dolphins and orcas) for profit is disgusting.


----------



## terryo (Feb 27, 2010)

All I can say is "ditto"!


----------



## ChiKat (Feb 27, 2010)

Great post cdmay, I completely agree!


----------



## Candy (Feb 27, 2010)

Carl I went to that site and am going to post it for the people who have not reconized that these tanks are too small for these animals to live in. I don't know why I'm letting this story get to me so badly these few days, but it's very depressing to me to see how others don't think this is wrong. After seeing the holding tanks and the rest of the tanks Carl is right and they are no bigger then the ones they perform their shows in. What made me really sad in looking at the map is that if you pull it up to the top you can see a giant pool, it's called the ocean. I couldn't help to feel sorry for them that they are so close to freedom yet so far away.  I can't help but think that the people on here would be so mad if this was done to a tortoise. 

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?q=&mkt=en-US&FORM=BYFD

I tried to post the tanks themselves, but it started at the beginning so you have to pull up San Diego and go from there. Please do so you can see what we're talking about.



Alfiethetortoise posted this website so we can learn what they do with these whales. Maybe I overlooked something, but I have read nothing that tells me that they are better off captive. Here is the information. You decide.



Capture and breeding
Orcas are large, active and intelligent. Males range from 6Ã¢â‚¬â€œ8 m long (19Ã¢â‚¬â€œ26 ft) and weigh over 6 tonnes, while females range from 5Ã¢â‚¬â€œ7 m (16Ã¢â‚¬â€œ23 ft) and weigh about 3 to 4 tonnes.[7] It is extremely difficult to capture orcas and to provide a healthy environment for the captives. Early attempts in the 1960s caused many injuries and deaths. However, with experience the teams who specialized in the business became more adept and post-capture survival rates improved. Live captures peaked in the early 1970s, but have become increasingly rare as the marine parks have learned how to maintain theme park populations through captive breeding and artificial insemination.

[edit] North Eastern Pacific Captures

The dorsal fin and saddle patch of a resident orca in the northeastern Pacific Ocean. It may be either an adult female, or a juvenile of either gender.The first North Eastern Pacific orca was captured in November 1961 by a collecting crew from Marineland of the Pacific in Los Angeles. The 5.2 m (17 ft) orca was placed in a tank at the aquarium, where she repeatedly crashed into the walls. She died the following day. The next orca captured, Moby Doll, had been harpooned and shot in 1964 and survived for three months when brought back for display to Vancouver, British Columbia.[8] The third capture for display occurred in June 1965 when William Lechkobit found a 22 foot (6.7m) male orca in his floating salmon net that had drifted close to shore near Namu, British Columbia. The orca was sold for $8,000 to Ted Griffin, a Seattle public aquarium owner. Named after his place of capture, Namu was the subject of a film that changed some people's attitudes toward orcas[9] He survived one year in captivity and died in his pen on July 9, 1966.[10].

During the 1960s and early 1970s, nearly 70 orcas were taken from Pacific waters for exhibition. The Southern Resident community of the Northeast Pacific lost 48 of its members to captivity. By 1976, only 80 orcas were left in the community, which remains endangered. With subsequent captures, the theme parks learned more about avoiding injury during capture and subsequent care of orcas, and discovered that they could be trained to perform tricks, a great attraction to visitors. As commercial demand increased, growing numbers of Pacific orcas were captured, peaking in 1970.[11]

A turning point came with a mass capture of orcas from the L-25 pod in August 1970 at Penn Cove, Puget Sound off the coast of Washington. The Penn Cove capture became controversial due to the large number of wild orcas that were taken (seven) and the number of deaths that resulted: four juveniles died, as well as one adult female who drowned when she became tangled in a net while attempting to reach her calf. In an attempt to conceal the deaths from the public, all five of the whales had their bellies slit open and filled with rocks, their tails weighted down with anchors and chains. The facts surrounding their deaths were discovered three months later after three of the dead whales washed ashore on Whidbey Island. Public concern about the welfare of the animals and the impact of captures on the wild pods led to the Marine Mammal Protection Act being passed in 1972 by the US Congress, protecting orcas from being harassed or killed, and requiring special permits for capture. Since then, few wild orcas have been captured in Northeastern Pacific waters.[12][13]

Lolita, originally known as Tokitae, was a survivor of the Penn Cove captures. She was about six years old at time of capture and is now the oldest captive orca. Lolita is the subject of the documentary Lolita: Slave to Entertainment, released in 2008.[14] Various groups still argue that Lolita should be released into the wild.[15][16][17]

[edit] Icelandic captures

Keiko is weighed as he is loaded into his specially made transport tank at the Oregon State Aquarium, on Sept. 9, 1998.When the US Marine Mammal Protection Act of 1972 effectively stopped the capture of Pacific orcas, exhibitors such as Sea World found a regime more tolerant of orca captures in Iceland. Icelandic herring fishermen had traditionally seen orcas as competitors for their catch, and sale of live orcas promised a large new source of income. 48 live orcas captured in Icelandic waters were exported to marine parks between 1976 and 1988. The capture process was based on luring the orcas by dumping leftovers from herring fishing in front of the pod, capturing the orcas in a purse seine net, selecting desirable animals and hauling them onboard in a specially designed frame, then placing them in foam-lined boxes full of seawater.[18] However, restrictions on US orca import permits and advances in captive breeding programs meant that the market never became as large as expected. Growing concern from conservationists and animal rights activists has caused the Icelandic government to limit the number of orcas that may be captured each year.[19]

Perhaps the best known of the Icelandic captives is Keiko, caught in 1979 and sold to the Icelandic aquarium in HafnarfjÃƒÂ¶rÃƒÂ°ur. Three years later, he was sold to Marineland Canada, where he first started performing for the public and developed skin lesions indicative of poor health. He was then sold to Reino Aventura (now named Six Flags Mexico), an amusement park in Mexico City, in 1985. He was the star of the 1993 movie Free Willy, the publicity from which led to an effort by Warner Brothers Studio to find him a better home. Using donations from the studio, Craig McCaw and millions of school children, the Oregon Coast Aquarium in Newport, Oregon spent over $7 million to construct facilities to return him to health with the hope of returning him to the wild. He was airlifted to his new home in January 1996, where he soon regained weight. In September 1998, he was flown to Klettsvik Bay in Vestmannaeyjar in Iceland, and gradually reintroduced to the wild, returning to the open sea in July 2002. Keiko died from pneumonia in December 2003. He had become lethargic and had a loss of appetite. He beached himself in the morning and died aged 27 years.[20][21]

[edit] North Western Pacific captures
1,477 orcas were hunted in Japanese waters between 1948 and 1972, 545 of them around Hokkaido. Killer whale encounters in Japanese waters are now rare.[22] In 1993 a group of ten orcas was corralled by Japanese fisherman banging on iron rods and using water bombs to disorientate the animals and force them into a bay near Taiji, Wakayama. They were held in the bay for two days before being auctioned to Japanese marine parks. Five animals were released, and the other five transported via road or sea to the aquariums. Three are now dead. The two survivors live in isolation in two separate Japanese aquaria.[23]

The first live orca captured in Russia was an 18-foot-long female estimated to be about six years old, captured off the Pacific coast of the Kamchatka district on September 26, 2003. She was transferred over 7,000 miles to a facility owned by the Utrish Dolphinarium on the Black Sea, where she died in October 2003 after less than a month in captivity.[24]

[edit] Orcas born in captivity
A growing number of theme-park orcas have been born in captivity. Kalina, a female orca born in September 1985 at SeaWorld Orlando, was the first captive orca calf to survive more than few days. Kalina's mother is an Icelandic female named Katina, and her father, Winston (also known as Ramu III), was a Pacific Southern Resident, making Kalina an Atlantic/Pacific hybrid Ã¢â‚¬â€ a unique situation that would not have occurred in the wild.[25]

The first orca conceived through artificial insemination was born to Kasatka at the SeaWorld park in San Diego in September 2001.[26] A female orca named Kohana, the second orca conceived in this manner, was born at the same park eight months later.[27] Artificial insemination lets park owners maintain a healthier genetic mix in the small groups of orcas at each park while avoiding the stress of moving orcas for breeding purposes.[28]

The practice of exhibiting orcas born in captivity is less controversial than of retaining free-born orcas, since the captive-born orcas have known no other world and may not be able to adapt to life in the wild. Captive breeding also promises to reduce incentives to capture wild orcas.[29] However, in January 2002 the Miami Seaquarium stated that captive orcas are dying faster than they are being born, and as it is virtually impossible to obtain orcas captured from the wild, the business of exhibiting captive orcas may eventually disappear.[30]

[edit] Orca captivity locations
As of February 2010, 42 orcas are held captive at facilities in North and South America, Europe and Japan, providing entertainment for theme park visitors.[31] Building the physical infrastructure of the parks has required major capital expenditure, but as the star attractions the orcas are arguably the most valuable and irreplaceable assets. Exhibition of captive orcas generates large revenues, and the theme parks continue to research ways to improve the health, fertility, longevity and general well-being of the orcas in their care.


----------



## cdmay (Feb 27, 2010)

Candy...you viewed the San Diego Sea World? I was speaking of the one in Orlando but I also took a look at the San Diego complex which seems to be different. In either case, it is not enough room.


----------



## Candy (Feb 27, 2010)

Here's an article that I found and it has insights to the education of children that some of you were talking about.


Report exposes suffering at whale and dolphin attractions

May 2009

As the summer travel season kicks into high gear and families begin making trips to watch performances by dolphins, orcas (killer whales), seals and sea lions in marine parks, the World Society for the Protection of Animals (WSPA) and the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) have issued the fourth edition of their in-depth report, The Case Against Marine Mammals in Captivity to educate tourists about the suffering that goes on behind the scenes.

The fourth edition of the report reflects the changing nature of the captive display industry. While some display facilities have closed in the United States and Europe, more have opened in the Caribbean and Asia, where few or no regulatory restrictions exist. The demand from the tourism industry for marine mammal attractions at these facilities has resulted in increasing live animal captures from wild populations, particularly in Asia, the Caribbean, Russia and the South Pacific. The capture methods employed are inhumane and result in numerous deaths. One particularly brutal hunt occurs annually in Japan.

For decades marine attractions around the world have marketed themselves as invaluable enterprises that contribute significantly to the research, conservation and public appreciation of marine species. The Case Against Marine Mammals in Captivity uses the latest research to debunk these claims. For example, the primary justification for the public display of marine mammals is the educational benefit of these exhibits. However, no objective, detailed evaluation of the effectiveness of educational programs offered by marine theme parks and aquaria has ever been published. In addition, public display is often justified with the argument that essential scientific research is conducted on captive animals. However, captive animals are rarely considered ideal research subjects when attempting to answer questions related to wild populations and conservation. Furthermore, fewer than 5 to 10 percent of zoos and aquaria are involved in substantial conservation programs and the amount spent on these programs is a mere fraction of the income generated by the facilities. Simply exhibiting wildlife cannot be considered as conservation or education.


Marine mammals are some of the most charismatic creatures on the planet and it is certainly understandable that people are drawn to them. However, the ethical concerns of keeping marine mammals in captivity must outweigh our own entertainment. WSPA and the HSUS believe there can be no justification for subjecting these animals to traumatic captures and an impoverished quality of life. The Case Against Marine Mammals in Captivity exposes the behind-the-scenes suffering of these animals and seeks to change the publicÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s perception of captivity


----------

