# Sulcata Too Small? HELP!



## alisha.fern (May 24, 2014)

Hello! This is my first post here on the forums! I have had my Sulcata since October of 2011, when he was a little bigger than my palm. Now, 2.5 years later, he has barely grown! I was reading a book the other day that said the average size for a 3 year old sulcata is 8-12". I know for sure I feed him a good diet, provide the right supplements, have a large enough enclosure, and he gets plenty of excersize! He in no way _seems _unhealthy. He eats, drinks, and basks every day, he soaks fairly often, he loves to cuddle and roam around the house. I just don't understand why he would still be so small?!?! Any advice or help please!


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## naturalman91 (May 24, 2014)

it looks like he may have been started dry which can stunt the growth are you keeping him humid? most of the sulcata info out there is bad they keep them dry and hot which is horrible to a baby tort we have a great section on sulcata's that has helped a lot of people and was written by a member of this forum who has raised sulcata's for about 20+ years if i'm not mistaken also it's not really the best idea to let a tort run the house because you can't control temp's and what we see as "roaming having fun" is actually stress looking for somewhere to hide, most of the time pyramiding is a sign they are being kept to dry and i see some slight pyramiding just give this a read over http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/ that care sheet won't undo what's already been done but following it will allow any new growth to come in smooth


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## dmmj (May 24, 2014)

A 3 year old tortoise should not be 8 to 12 inches. He/she has some very minor pyramiding,but looks healthy otherwise. 1 to 2 inch growth a year is a goal, but not a rule, as long as he/she is growing, no matter how slow it is good.


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## alisha.fern (May 24, 2014)

His shell already had that little bit of pyramiding when I got him, which is part of the reason I got him. I wanted to give him a healthier home. The first year I had him I soaked him almost every day. His enclosure has some humidity, and he goes in his water dish regularly.


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## Maggie Cummings (May 25, 2014)

He needs 80% humidity in is enclosure and a fresh UVB light or daily sun. Welcome...walking is the house is a very bad idea ...generally speaking the floor is too cold for a baby, he should be kept at 80 degrees or better, he could eat dust bunnies, safety pins, cat or dog hair, blanket fuzz etc. He is a tortoise, not a dog or a cat and needs to be kept in a tort table. They get very stressed in a situation as you are describing...


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## bouaboua (May 25, 2014)

WOW. It is rare that your sulcata grow so little. Is he eating and pooping OK? If it is normal, I'm not worry. It may not be a bad thing for a Sulcata to kept small.


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## Tom (May 25, 2014)

When hatchlings are started with the dry routine, it often stunts them. Its good that you soaked daily once you got him, but there is much more to it than that. What were your four temps? How did you house the tort? Most important, and pertinent to your question, is how was this tortoise started for its first few weeks of life? Also, WHAT do you feed this tortoise?

Roaming the floor is a bad idea for many reasons. Make your indoor and outdoor enclosures large enough so that your tortoise can meet its exercise needs in its own safe dedicated space.

Here is an additional thread for you to read.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

And one more.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/


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## Dizisdalife (May 25, 2014)

Welcome to the forum. There are a lot of experienced sulcata keepers here that are eager to share their experience with you so that you don't have to make the same mistakes that they have made. I have found that it is never too late to make changes to the way your sulcata is kept. At any age or size they will thrive when provided optimal conditions ( or anything close to optimal). Warmth, humidity, exercise, sunshine, and varied diet are essential for their well being. In addition to providing these I would also suggest that a fecal sample be taken to a local Vet lab to be tested for parasites. Sometimes they can inhibit the natural growth of a tortoise.


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## Yvonne G (May 25, 2014)

Hi, and welcome to the Forum!


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## alisha.fern (May 25, 2014)

Tom said:


> When hatchlings are started with the dry routine, it often stunts them. Its good that you soaked daily once you got him, but there is much more to it than that. What were your four temps? How did you house the tort? Most important, and pertinent to your question, is how was this tortoise started for its first few weeks of life? Also, WHAT do you feed this tortoise?
> 
> Roaming the floor is a bad idea for many reasons. Make your indoor and outdoor enclosures large enough so that your tortoise can meet its exercise needs in its own safe dedicated space.
> 
> ...



I am loving all the information I am getting. Extremely helpful. I would love to upload pics of his enclosure but I can't at the moment (no computer & dumb phone). I will have a new phone within a couple weeks & I'll post pics! I am just curious as to how soooo many people have soooo many different variations of what they think is the "right thing" for sulcatas?!?! What is a person truly supposed to believe? Between Sulcata Station, books I've read, and you, no two sources have the same opinion as far as complete care information.


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## WillTort2 (May 25, 2014)

Opinions will vary on most any topic. Think of the number of diet plans advised for human weight loss; they can't all be correct, yet doctors will advertise their plan as being the best.

Tom's ideas for raising young tortoises is well tested and proven over time. I would feel confident with the warm and humid method his closed chambers advise.


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## Tom (May 26, 2014)

alisha.fern said:


> I am just curious as to how soooo many people have soooo many different variations of what they think is the "right thing" for sulcatas?!?! What is a person truly supposed to believe? Between Sulcata Station, books I've read, and you, no two sources have the same opinion as far as complete care information.



This is a great question and a valid one. I can offer some insight. For many years people thought these tortoises came from a dry habitat and we needed to simulate that environment in our captive enclosures. For some reason, even after decades of failure, many still go that route. So what REALLY happens in the wild? Yes, the environment where sulcatas come from is hot and dry... for 8-9 months of the year, but guess what. They are underground away from the heat and desiccation that is occurring above ground on the surface. In fact sulcatas spend 95-98% of their lives underground. Here is the best analogy I can think of: There are earthworms all over the Sahel region of Africa. Can you imagine what would happen to an earthworm if you put it in a tank with dry rabbit pellets, no water bowl and a hot bulb over it? Well the same thing happens to a baby sulcata on the INSIDE, because that environment is just as foreign an un-natural to a hatchling sulcata as it is an earthworm. Here is the second big detail that is often ignored or overlooked by the sites and sources you mentioned: What about the OTHER 3-4 months of every year???!!! You know that little thing called "THE RAINY SEASON"? It is almost never mentioned, but THIS is the time of year when sulcatas hatch out of the ground. Its hot, humid, there are frequent puddles from the rain, and some areas, areas where brand new hatchlings have been spotted, are "marshy" according to my African tortoise researcher friend.

I cannot explain why these simple facts are ignored by the tortoise keeping masses and the vast majority of "experts", but I find it pretty easy to explain why the warm humid methods work for everyone who tries it all over the world, AND why the hot dry methods fail. Hot and dry does NOT simulate the conditions that sulcatas ACTUALLY experience in the wild. It simulates what is happening above ground out in the open for PART of their year, while they are underground eating the food they dragged down and enjoying warm temps and more humidity than would be found at the surface.


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## alisha.fern (May 26, 2014)

Tom said:


> This is a great question and a valid one. I can offer some insight. For many years people thought these tortoises came from a dry habitat and we needed to simulate that environment in our captive enclosures. For some reason, even after decades of failure, many still go that route. So what REALLY happens in the wild? Yes, the environment where sulcatas come from is hot and dry... for 8-9 months of the year, but guess what. They are underground away from the heat and desiccation that is occurring above ground on the surface. In fact sulcatas spend 95-98% of their lives underground. Here is the best analogy I can think of: There are earthworms all over the Sahel region of Africa. Can you imagine what would happen to an earthworm if you put it in a tank with dry rabbit pellets, no water bowl and a hot bulb over it? Well the same thing happens to a baby sulcata on the INSIDE, because that environment is just as foreign an un-natural to a hatchling sulcata as it is an earthworm. Here is the second big detail that is often ignored or overlooked by the sites and sources you mentioned: What about the OTHER 3-4 months of every year???!!! You know that little thing called "THE RAINY SEASON"? It is almost never mentioned, but THIS is the time of year when sulcatas hatch out of the ground. Its hot, humid, there are frequent puddles from the rain, and some areas, areas where brand new hatchlings have been spotted, are "marshy" according to my African tortoise researcher friend.
> 
> I cannot explain why these simple facts are ignored by the tortoise keeping masses and the vast majority of "experts", but I find it pretty easy to explain why the warm humid methods work for everyone who tries it all over the world, AND why the hot dry methods fail. Hot and dry does NOT simulate the conditions that sulcatas ACTUALLY experience in the wild. It simulates what is happening above ground out in the open for PART of their year, while they are underground eating the food they dragged down and enjoying warm temps and more humidity than would be found at the surface.



Awesome. I love the info. So my question is, which substrate do you prefer for an indoor enclosure? I moved into my new apartment in January, and since I've been here, every single potted plant I have has been infested with fungus gnats. I'm extremely worried that if I keep his substrate too moist, he will soon be living surrounded by thousands of gnats!  Also, with the substrate that you prefer, how do you go about cleaning it properly? I try my hardest to keeps smells at bay, but with more moist substrate I know that will be a little more difficult.


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## Tom (May 26, 2014)

For young sulcatas my favorite substrate is orchid bark. In the big bags at garden centers it is often called fir bark or Pathway bark. Just make sure is fine grade and not the big honkin' coarse chunks.

The "gnats" are probably phorid flies and they are simply a part of life with any damp soil or substrate. They are harmless detrivores and I don't do anything about them. If you don't like them you can replace, bake or boil your substrate every couple of weeks.


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