# OUTSIDE HEAT SOURCE



## wellington (Jan 9, 2012)

I am collecting ideas for outdoor enclosure for cold winters in Chicago. I have a couple years (i think) before I will need one. I don't plan on keeping him outside in the winter, but would like to be able to put him out on warmer days for some rays and would like him to have a warm house to go into if he gets to cold, until I come for him. Now my questions is this. Has anyone used the under floor heating system they have for your home? You can install it under stone or ceramic tile, carpet and I think cement floors. I am not sure if you can install it under wood floor. It is run off of the main electrical box. I would also use a second heat source over head. This would all be in a double walled insulated small dog house style house. The door I am looking for, if anyone has seen one, automatically opens either by stepping on a plate or by walking through a infrared beam. Any thoughts good or bad would be appreciated.


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## Talka (Jan 10, 2012)

Bump! (I'm super curious about this!)


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## Turtulas-Len (Jan 10, 2012)

I'm not sure how big a the area you are planning the heated floor area to be, that would make a difference on what the best way to do it would be,There are heat pads that are durable enough for on the ground applications, I use the Stanfield 3x4 foot size in the tortoise house.I don't believe the under floor heat systems are made for outside use where the weather elements would effect it.


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## wellington (Jan 10, 2012)

Talka said:


> Bump! (I'm super curious about this!)



Here is a very short version of what the heating system is. You can find it online at home depot, several kinds. Just search under floor heating
SunTouch Floor Warming
SunStat 120/240-Volt Programmable Floor Warming Control-thermostat

QEP FloorWarm
2 ft. x 3 ft. Under Tile Heat Mat for Underfloor Radiant Heat/Anti-fracture Protection System-heating

The only automatic pet door that i can find so far, the animal has to wear a collar as they are for cats and dogs.
Seems no one has used any of these as of yet. 



Turtulas said:


> I'm not sure how big a the area you are planning the heated floor area to be, that would make a difference on what the best way to do it would be,There are heat pads that are durable enough for on the ground applications, I use the Stanfield 3x4 foot size in the tortoise house.I don't believe the under floor heat systems are made for outside use where the weather elements would effect it.



I am not sure what weather elements? It will be inside a double wall insulated dog house style house. It would be only as big as what you would need for a med to large dog. I want it just for my leopard to go into to get warm, just when he is out for the day, not to live in 24/7.


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## Turtulas-Len (Jan 10, 2012)

For the door I have poly hanging from the top, on the inside wall and for winter I added some on the outside wall, I did this because when the wind blows it would blow cold air into his house, with the two layers with a eight inch space between them the inner layer doesn't move, only the outer one does.This house is 8x8 ft and heated only by the 3x4 ft heat pad and a 150 watt che and it stays plenty warm, the pad is running about 70% and the che at 100%.so I'm guessing it is taking about 300 watts to keep it warm, but so far it has been a mild fall and winter for this area, coldest night time temp has been 16 degrees but most days it gets at least into the 40s or 50s.so when you build your house insulate it to the max.


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## wellington (Jan 10, 2012)

I had thought about making the door way a tunnel before he would get to the main house part, thinking that the tunnel would help to keep the warm air in more and the cold air out when he was going in or out? I am looking for the cheapest way to heat. Our winters are usually much colder than it has been this year, 20,30 
Maybe some 40 and colder at nite. My average heat bill for winter is $5-7 hundred a month and my electric bill is $160.00 a month winter and summer unless the air is on. Do you think a CHE and a heat mat would run cheaper than a under floor heat system that is made for houses. I would run the heat only during the day when he was outside. He will be living inside my house all the other time. Any idea how much a heat mat and Che cost to run? Thanks for any and all ideas


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## evlinLoutries (Jan 10, 2012)

I had the same problem here..

I need a heat source for my sulcatas outdoor enclosure,


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## lynnedit (Jan 10, 2012)

You are starting with an insulated shed/hut, which is great. Floor too. 
If the under floor heat system has a thermostat setting, and you covered with tile and sealed edges with silicone for easy cleaning (we all know they poop when they are warm...), it might work.
The pig mats (Osbourne, Stanfield), with a good thermostat (I'm told to get the one that comes with it, the slightly more expensive thermostat, works better, apparently) also seem to do the trick. If the mat covers 2/3 of the floor, then they can move on and off as needed, to thermoregulate, which they could not do with the entire floor heated. 

Then it seems people use CHE's for above heating, also on a thermostat.

These seem to work well as background heat too: http://www.google.com/products/cata...a=X&ei=DfsMT5STHOiciQKEw7T4Aw&ved=0CGIQ8wIwAA, with a wood frame to prevent tipping. 

Covering the inside and the outside with strips of vinyl or clear carpet runner helps prevent heat loss. An entry tunnel is a wonderful idea.


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## wellington (Jan 10, 2012)

I didn't even think about him not being able to remove himself off of the heated floor. Thanks for the wake up. The pig blanket may be the way to go. The oil filled heaters though are not cheap to run. Not the one we own anyway. I wanted to have a thermistated on any heat source i use. His house will have shingle roofing and vinyl siding. The door/tunnel will be off to the side of the front. After he gets out of the tunnel there will be a angled wall that will also be used to keep the cold air from going into his resting spot. I would like to use an auto open/close door, if I can find one. Do you think it would scare him to much, where he may not use it? One side of the roof will also open for cleaning and being able to get to him. Is there anything else I am missing?


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## lynnedit (Jan 10, 2012)

Well, the auto door seems like a neat idea, but I think with your tunnel and vinyl strips you don't have to worry, and can focus on the rest of it? I haven't seen anyone else using it, and you are right, can't see a tort with a collar, lol!!
(The only other thing would be, what if it malfunctioned and you were not there? If heat goes out for a few hours, the hut will still say warm and dry, but if he couldn't get in when he needed to?)
Here is a nice thread on the mats: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Which-heat-source-do-you-prefer#axzz1j7ZmwunJ
Yep, having one side of the roof open on a hinge for access is perfect. Make sure your floor is waterproof; vinyl flooring (would add another layer of insulation), a waterproof paint, etc. 
Looking forward to pics!


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## Zamric (Jan 12, 2012)

Im sold on my Mini Oil-Filled Radiator. It is 5"x13"x17" and will keep WalkingRocks 4'x8' box at about 71 deg on days the temp reaches sub freezing. For Texas that would be about 25 deg.


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## wellington (Jan 12, 2012)

Don't you find the oil heater very expensive to run?


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## Tom (Jan 12, 2012)

Here where I am in CA we have nights in the high 20's to low 30's most winter nights. I have several types of heating running right now. All the ones being discussed. The oil heaters do pop on at higher wattage than the pig blankets or the CHEs, but they only come on for a while and then shut off, but keep giving warmth for a long time after they shut off. Mine only pops on two or three times a night on a freezing night, while the other heating equipment stays on 24/7. In an insulated box with double door flaps, I think this is the best and most efficient heating method. I run little electricity meters on all my outdoor reptile boxes to keep track of the energy used, and even though my oil-heater heated box is four times the volume of my smaller boxes with the pig/blanket CHE combos, it uses around the same or less electricity as them. I have only a single set of flaps, but a ramp that hinges up at night to form a solid door. Here's the big box: The door is not pictured as I added it later.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-Mother-of-All-Tortoise-Boxes#axzz1jG80TRJB

If you still decide not to go the oil heater route, there is something else to consider. A big problem I've had with the overhead CHEs for bigger or higher domed tortoises (leopards), is that to make it warm enough at floor level, it becomes hot enough to burn at carapace-top level. Last year I bought some radiant heat panels and they are working great for me. They use less electricity than a CHE and their heat is spread out over a large area. Your tortoise could literally put his carapace up against the flat heating area and it could never burn him. Using one of these you can make a much shorter box and have much less air volume to keep warm. I've got two enclosures with a RHP on top and a pig blanket on bottom, both on the same thermostat, and they have been performing perfectly since Fall. The air temps are actually warmer in the boxes too than they were with the CHEs, all for less electricity.


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## lynnedit (Jan 12, 2012)

Tom, thanks for that input. I think that is the key with the oil filled heaters, the fact that the radiate heat even after they turn 'off'. I have one in my greenhouse which is 7.5x11 and fairly well insulated. Even today, when it is 31 outside, I can turn it up at 9am (I leave it on 600w on setting #1 overnight), just to 900w and setting #4, and it is warm enough within 2 hours (there are also 2 basking lights on timers, on the opposite side and a heat cable in one small area which obviously help).
For a large room, they may have to work harder. For a smaller room and certainly a smaller hut, even 4x8, if the roof is lower, even 4', they should work well. I like the look of the mini oil filled heater for a smaller hut, like Zamric uses.
Tom, do you get your RHP from http://www.reptilebasics.com/rbi-radiant-heat-panels ? Was there some mention also, that even if placed on the roof, they 'push' heat down (or is that a pipe dream)?


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## Zamric (Jan 12, 2012)

For the last 4 years I used domes with heating bulbs in his house, you can still see one of the domes in the pic on the door (top). I had 1 red heat bulb and 1 ceramic heat emitter. We still had to bring him in on extreme cold nights (sub Freezing) and the electrical usage was CRAZY! This year with the Oil Filled Radiator, his house stays toasty and my electric bill is MUCH lower than I ever expected and now I need to replace his top door because the domes are releasing the heat like a chimney (and it still stays between 65-75 deg)


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## Tom (Jan 12, 2012)

In this first pic you can see my ramp/door and the RHP up on top. They mount really easily with just two screws. I put some 1.5" foil backed foam insulation up there to try to keep some heat in and reflect the heat down. Its all working really well.






In this one you can see the well used Kane Heat Mat and my "electrical box". I screwed that plastic box to the side to gather up and contain all the loose wires. It also holds my thermostat and electricity meter. Keeps everything much more tidy and out of the way.





Here are a couple of views of Big Boy and his underground set up. Basically its the same as Bert's box. You can see with this bruiser why a CHE would just be too risky.









And yes my RHPs did come from Reptile Basics. The man was very helpful on the phone, but also very honest in that he did not know if his product would work for my application or not. Apparently, not many people have giant lizards housed in big outdoor cages with underground boxes to heat. Go figure.  The product is great and has performed as designed perfectly and the service was great too. I recommend them highly.


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## wellington (Jan 12, 2012)

Great Pics., Thanks. Love the lizard too. I will be looking into the panels or a newer oil heater along with the blanket. The oil heater I have is pretty old. I would imagine the newer ones would be more energy efficient. The CHE sounds to risky. How about solar? Going to look in to that also. Do you have the box up off the ground for a reason? I will probably have to put mine on some kind of wheels to move around the yard. I don't get much sun in the winter, its spotty. So I plan on having a portable fence I can take off and on easily for when I need to move the house. In the summer time, I will have the house set in one spot in his summer enclosure. Can you give me a guesstimate on the height and width and length of a full grown leopard (bab)? I know they all very, I just need an idea. Thanks again


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## Tom (Jan 13, 2012)

Oil heater technology hasn't changed much. Your old one is probably fine. They all cook the oil at 500-600 watts on low. One thing that has changed is all the fancy new computer timers and temp settings. These fancy new features make them unusable for my purposes.

To go solar, you'd have to do your whole house, which I highly recommend. I did it a while back and I LOVE having no electric bill.

I usually set my boxes up on 4x4" skids so they don't flood in a heavy rain. If you mount wheels on the bottom, just make sure that it is totally stable and not the least bit wobbly. They might not like a wobbly house.

A big leopard might be 18" long with a 12-14" tall carapace.

In most cases I think that the oil heater all alone is all that would be needed. If you go the other route, then I would use the RHP along with a pig blanket. By the way the new Kane heat mats come with an embedded thermostat built into the pad which keeps them from ever over heating no matter where you set the dial.


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## yagyujubei (Jan 13, 2012)

I'm sorry, but I don't believe what you are considering is possible. It gets way too cold for way too long in your area. I live south of Cleveland, am quite handy, and wouldn't even consider it. I think your only possible solution is a heated room in the basement. If you lose power to any outside shed/box on a sub zero night. Your tortoises will be dead by morning. I figure that my basement warm room costs about $50 per month or more to heat.


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## wellington (Jan 13, 2012)

yagyujubei said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't believe what you are considering is possible. It gets way too cold for way too long in your area. I live south of Cleveland, am quite handy, and wouldn't even consider it. I think your only possible solution is a heated room in the basement. If you lose power to any outside shed/box on a sub zero night. Your tortoises will be dead by morning. I figure that my basement warm room costs about $50 per month or more to heat.



If you read my original post to this, I am not never winter or summer leaving him outside at night. This is for day time only. The heat is for the days that we have some sun and the temps are 50/60 and above for him when he is much older than now to get some sun and grass. Thanks for your input and concern


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