# Mixing species



## Raymo2477 (Aug 1, 2015)

I'm at the San Diego zoo right now. The have a habitat with Russians, Marginateds, and Euro pond turtles.

I've always heard mixing was bad. If so why is a zoo doing it?


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## Raymo2477 (Aug 1, 2015)

Pic of the marginated


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## ZEROPILOT (Aug 1, 2015)

It is done.
I'm sure that a zoo has more at its disposal to take on most situations that occur than just a casual keeper 
They likely lacked the room for individual habitats or felt that there wasn't enough interest to warrant it.
I've also seen differently species housed together.


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## Tom (Aug 1, 2015)

Ray, 
Zoos are not usually a shining how to do things. We could start a list of all sorts of zoo failures that would go on for many pages. There are many possible explanations for this including ignorance, bureaucracy, lack of space, etc...

Do you doubt that different species can pass novel diseases back and forth? Do you doubt that whole collections have been lost due to cross contamination from different species?

Mixing species is not always a 100% guaranteed instant death sentence. Some percentage of the time mixed species enclosures do not result in the death of every occupant. The problem is that some other percentage of the time mixing species DOES result in the death of all or some of the inhabitants.

The only wise advice is to not mix species. I wish more zoos would set better examples.


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## Merrick (Aug 1, 2015)

Their are tons of flaws of husbandry in zoos you just have to know what to look for


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## Raymo2477 (Aug 1, 2015)

I agree that cohabitation can result in more problems than its worth...just suprised to see it at a 'good' zoo.


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## Raymo2477 (Aug 1, 2015)

I do have a question if species naturally overlap is it bad...like having Eastern Box with say a Wood turtle?


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## enchilada (Aug 1, 2015)

But look at their Radiata and Galapagos enclosure , they aint mixing with any other tortoises. 
my conclusion is , they mix Russians and Marginateds because they are cheap and common


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## Tom (Aug 1, 2015)

Raymo2477 said:


> I do have a question if species naturally overlap is it bad...like having Eastern Box with say a Wood turtle?



I would consider that to be less of a risk than animals from different continents or entirely different regions within a continent.

Personally I don't know if an eastern box turtle would ever come into contact with a wood turtle in the wild. Would they?

In addition to disease factor, there is also the behavioral incompatibility factor. Russians are scrappy. Margies less so.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 5, 2015)

Cohabitation of the _same_ species, let alone different ones, can lead to fighting, bullying, the passing on of pathogens and death, hence quarantine and the need for separate enclosures, depending on species and space available etc.
Mixing species is bound to be more dangerous.


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## wellington (Aug 5, 2015)

Since joining this forum, I have learned that Zoos don't do the best for the animals or know as much about them as I thought they did. I used to think they were the ones to know everything about the animals they keep and to feed and house them they proper way. Since joining this forum, so not true, at least with tortoises. It's sad, but true. Of course not all Zoos, but I would have to guess most.


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## Tom (Aug 5, 2015)

wellington said:


> Since joining this forum, I have learned that Zoos don't do the best for the animals or know as much about them as I thought they did. I used to think they were the ones to know everything about the animals they keep and to feed and house them they proper way. Since joining this forum, so not true, at least with tortoises. It's sad, but true. Of course not all Zoos, but I would have to guess most.



Its true with nearly ALL species of all animals. The breakthroughs and the real knowledge are usually gained in the private sector. It is maddening because the big zoo organizations have a very elitist attitude and only want animals in the hands of accredited zoos. They willfully and purposefully try to keep rare animals out of the hands of private professionals like me and the people I work with, yet we are often the ones who supply them with the best animals and teach them how to care for them. It is laughable, frustrating and infuriating at times.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 5, 2015)

Raymo2477 said:


> I'm at the San Diego zoo right now. The have a habitat with Russians, Marginateds, and Euro pond turtles.
> 
> I've always heard mixing was bad. If so why is a zoo doing it?



Zoos have very strict quarantine protocols. The new animals are tested and re-tested before they are put out in the enclosures. Unless an *individual* tests for Viruses, Mycoplasma, and Coccidia , etc. mixing species should not be done.


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## Merrick (Aug 5, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> Zoos have very strict quarantine protocols. The new animals are tested and re-tested before they are put out in the enclosures. Unless an *individual* tests for Viruses, Mycoplasma, and Coccidia , etc. mixing species should not be done.


I can back that up I have close friends and family who work in zoos one even specializes in the quarantine zone at zoo miami. They do extensive testing, but they still get things wrong husbandry wise at times but this could also be because of monetary reasons.


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## Tom (Aug 5, 2015)

…and some tortoises diseases are not easy to spot and are nearly impossible to diagnose in a live tortoise even with a battery of expensive tests.

Ask me how I know this...


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## domalle (Aug 5, 2015)

Tom said:


> I would consider that to be less of a risk than animals from different continents or entirely different regions within a continent.
> 
> Personally I don't know if an eastern box turtle would ever come into contact with a wood turtle in the wild. Would they?
> 
> In addition to disease factor, there is also the behavioral incompatibility factor. Russians are scrappy. Margies less so.



Yes, eastern box turtles and wood turtles are indigenous to same areas in some parts of their respective realms. But their activity periods
may vary and they don't share the same niche. So individuals of each species may pass by each other.
In captivity tho the no mixing rule would apply.


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## ZEROPILOT (Aug 5, 2015)

Tom said:


> …and some tortoises diseases are not easy to spot and are nearly impossible to diagnose in a live tortoise even with a battery of expensive tests.
> 
> Ask me how I know this...


I'm finding this out for myself.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 5, 2015)

The picture you may have had in your mind's eye is a 2 x 3 foot box behind glass. It just isn't like that. The OP did not mention the enclosure it outside bathed in UV all day, is cleaned regularly, has several lizards and is larger than many people's backyards. It's huge, an oval, but I would guesstimate 50 feet by 25 feet. There is a smallish pond at one end with the aquatics, the land area is +/- 90% of it. 

That and the quarantine that zoos use makes this okay-ish.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 5, 2015)

Tom said:


> …and some tortoises diseases are not easy to spot and are nearly impossible to diagnose in a live tortoise even with a battery of expensive tests.
> 
> Ask me how I know this...


Did you say crypto?


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## wellington (Aug 5, 2015)

Will said:


> The picture you may have had in your mind's eye is a 2 x 3 foot box behind glass. It just isn't like that. The OP did not mention the enclosure it outside bathed in UV all day, is cleaned regularly, has several lizards and is larger than many people's backyards. It's huge, an oval, but I would guesstimate 50 feet by 25 feet. There is a smallish pond at one end with the aquatics, the land area is +/- 90% of it.
> 
> That and the quarantine that zoos use makes this okay-ish.



50x25 is smaller then my biggest enclosure and my next to biggest is longer by 2 possibly 3 times, but not as wide and I have way less in mine then most zoos have in theirs. Being a Zoo, they should do better then anyone of us.


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## wellington (Aug 5, 2015)

wellington said:


> 50x25 is smaller then my biggest enclosure and my next to biggest is longer by 2 possibly 3 times, but not as wide and I have way less in mine then most zoos have in theirs. Being a Zoo, they should do better then anyone of us.


Oh, and I live in the city of Chicago.


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## Tom (Aug 5, 2015)

Will said:


> The picture you may have had in your mind's eye is a 2 x 3 foot box behind glass.



I have been visiting The SD Zoo literally since I was an infant. I even posted a pic of me there with my dad a while back.

I envisioned these tortoises either in the big oval that they are in, or one of the outside enclosures that are outside the individual smaller reptile houses.

I would not mix russians and margies indoors or out in any size enclosure.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 6, 2015)

wellington said:


> Oh, and I live in the city of Chicago.


Cool ,so your outdoor enclosures are still wholly available in the snow, the SD animals are outside in the area year round. Next time I go I'll take pictures or a walk around video.

Either way, I am filling in for an image with a narrative that so far does NOT exist for the enclosure being talked about. Odds are Wellington your ginormous enclosure is mixed species, squirrels, mice, many species of birds, etc. so, when outside in a large enclosure it is mixed species no matter what. I once heard a person relate that their intel was that even a fly can be a vector between separated enclosures, inside or out, for a disease causing organism for which there is no cure.

The history of the animals among a group of tortoises is as much or more informative than what a retail vet may find. Zoos' vets, at a really good zoo, and I would put forth that SDZ is globally among the top 5, are as well equipped to sort out and diagnose issues as is possible. They have post docs who will later in their career go on to run state and federal animal disease agencies. Those are relationships that last a lifetime. That the particular tortoises in that exhibit got that level of attention is unknown.

I can further suggest that well above than simply 'on average' those animals at the zoo have a larger enclosure than the person who wants to mix a leopard with a redfoot in a 50 gallon size enclosure, with no known history and will likely never see a vet. That scenario, 50 gallons and greater diversity of origin both geographically and genetically, as well as likely the history of the individual tortoises narrated by a flipper will make for a more safe 'risk', NOT. 

Upon close inspection of the animals and the enclosure, and the inferred disparagement of the keeping at SDZ, I am surprised the OP did not relate the shell condition of the animals indicating a less than favorable diet, indicating that they are very highly likely captive bred animals as well.

Would I mix species(?), animals that I have hatched out in one incubator side by side, yes - otherwise, no. I don't even keep adult unknown history animals together. other than for dating.

In asking myself why do I care what anyone thinks about this particular exhibit at this particular zoo, I reflect on the bull feces sensationalism of how people look outward for other's practices, when not sharing their own. I can reflect on my own career working inside a zoo, and now other captive animal facilities, as well as how I keep animals at home. The zoo is not there to indicate to you how to take care of your pets, it is there to share the wonder of animal diversity, and if you don't 'get it' that many zoos make mistakes, but many do as good as it gets, and can't tell the difference then don't infer a disparagement, but ask a question, why might this be okay there, but not a best practice for me at home.

I sure hope the same sensibility is not applied when you drive home from a NASCAR race.


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## wellington (Aug 6, 2015)

Sadely no, enclosure not as big in the winter. However, I totally agree that Zoos do have the resources to handle any or most things that may pop up. I sadely don't have that big a wallet. As for my mixed species, with birds, etc, oh yea, birds, rabbits, skunks, coons, squirrels, deer, fox, coyote, I do have that all here. Just not mixed tortoise species, again, wallet not that big nor are my resources.
For me, I always thought Zoos knew it all and it was all correct. Yes, we do need to take a step back and realize that when we learn more we can do more. I guess that has to be offered to Zoos to be allowed to make their mistakes and that they will do better when they know better. I think, at least for me, it's a step that I'm just learning pertains to "all" of us, pet owners, pet stores, breeders, Zoos, etc.


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## keithsf (Aug 28, 2015)

OK, so I'm sure all of the learned tort keepers will have a field day with this one, but I'm interested in others views, BASED UPON GENDER, SIZE, AND GENERALIZED SPECIES PERSONALITY TRAITS ONLY, which mixes might THEORETICALLY cohabitate (not breed) better? (e.g. male star tortoise with a female Herrmann's, etc.)

Everyone who wants to respond with: 'no don't ever do it' please re-read the above. I have no plans to do this - just idle Friday afternoon debate curiosity.


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## Merrick (Aug 28, 2015)

keithsf said:


> OK, so I'm sure all of the learned tort keepers will have a field day with this one, but I'm interested in others views, BASED UPON GENDER, SIZE, AND GENERALIZED SPECIES PERSONALITY TRAITS ONLY, which mixes might THEORETICALLY cohabitate (not breed) better? (e.g. male star tortoise with a female Herrmann's, etc.)
> 
> Everyone who wants to respond with: 'no don't ever do it' please re-read the above. I have no plans to do this - just idle Friday afternoon debate curiosity.


Animals from the same environment i mean region of the world ie indotestudo and emys


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## Alaskamike (Sep 8, 2015)

I am one who has decried the keeping practices or certain zoos of certain animals. That said, the inspection and certification / inspection processes they have to endure would have most of us out of the hobby in quick order. 

I totally get the biological risks of placing mixed species in a shared enclosure. Much like the risks of bullying or death with multiples of same species. 

It often comes down to risk tolerance , the degree of supervision and observation and space available. A zoo frequently has a staff vet - or many, as well as veterinary interns immediately available. I don't. 

When I've had friends who actually worked at a zoo , I learned to appreciate what they go through.


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## Tom (Sep 8, 2015)

keithsf said:


> OK, so I'm sure all of the learned tort keepers will have a field day with this one, but I'm interested in others views, BASED UPON GENDER, SIZE, AND GENERALIZED SPECIES PERSONALITY TRAITS ONLY, which mixes might THEORETICALLY cohabitate (not breed) better? (e.g. male star tortoise with a female Herrmann's, etc.)
> 
> Everyone who wants to respond with: 'no don't ever do it' please re-read the above. I have no plans to do this - just idle Friday afternoon debate curiosity.



I get what you are asking here.

Disease risk is just one factor that I consider in this sort of thing.

Hybridization is another. I'm against it and will discourage it at every turn.

Yet another big factor for me is _behavioral_ compatibility, or the lack there of. Being that animal behavior has been my paid profession, hobby and passion since 1986, I am particularly aware and cognizant of the subtle intricacies that often take place. Mixing species from different continents or even different environments from the same continent is also not good for behavioral reasons.

I don't intend to have any sort of "field day" with your question, but the "GENERALIZED SPECIES PERSONALITY TRAITS ONLY…" is a big reason why I am against mixing species under any circumstance.

The only instance where I can see mixing species is if the animals in question are "disposable" to their owner, the owner acknowledges the substantial risk, and basically is okay with it if one or more of the tortoises in question don't survive the "experiment. Personally, I don't meet any of those criterion, so my species will be kept separated, and I will continue on with my attempts are reducing/preventing any cross contamination at my facilities.

Your Friday afternoon debate has become my Tuesday afternoon debate.


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## mrscruffy (Sep 9, 2015)

Merrick said:


> Animals from the same environment i mean region of the world ie indotestudo and emys


Hi,

I feel I should share my experience for the benefit of the community despite the disapproval of some members. Both elongated and impressa live in my garden which is not massive but around 100 square meters. Each species shows very little interest in the other, but a lot of interest in their own species. I once saw my male impressa approach a female elongated, head bob for a few minutes and then move off. The female elongated seemed slightly defensive initially but then continued eating and ignored the dejected male impressa. I have seen female elongated choose to cohabitate hides with the impressa, despite the impressa being larger. No ramming or aggression has been observed except between elongateds.
The species live in the same range and I doubt they would hybridise. No sign of illness, indeed the health of most of them has improved since being in my care which probably has to do with becoming comfortable in the new environment, soaking and much better diet than in a hunters camp or the wild life market.

Sorry if I upset anyone, I am not advocating mixing, but sharing my experience.

Cheers
Scruff


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## sullygirl85 (Oct 4, 2015)

I have a question, I have combed the internet about it for weeks and cannot find an answer.......My son has a red foot tortoise, now as I read I know that certain species carry different types of diseases and if you get a new tortoise definitely the need to quarantine it initially is important. However, my question is, can you house a red foot with an indian star? I think that it is important to note, that my son's red foot is very young and only weighs about eh 60 grams last I checked. So I thought perhaps two babies would be better. I have no idea, hence he reason I ask the experts.


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## leigti (Oct 4, 2015)

You should not house to tortoises together. They don't do well in pairs. And definitely not two of different species. Mixing the species is just asking for trouble. They can make each other sick.


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## Killerrookie (Oct 4, 2015)

sullygirl85 said:


> I have a question, I have combed the internet about it for weeks and cannot find an answer.......My son has a red foot tortoise, now as I read I know that certain species carry different types of diseases and if you get a new tortoise definitely the need to quarantine it initially is important. However, my question is, can you house a red foot with an indian star? I think that it is important to note, that my son's red foot is very young and only weighs about eh 60 grams last I checked. So I thought perhaps two babies would be better. I have no idea, hence he reason I ask the experts.


I don't think it's worth the risk to put two different species together. I don't think it matters how old or young the tortoise is to spread diseases. Plus they both eat different things and have different care requirements.


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## Tom (Oct 4, 2015)

mrscruffy said:


> Hi,
> 
> I feel I should share my experience for the benefit of the community despite the disapproval of some members. Both elongated and impressa live in my garden which is not massive but around 100 square meters. Each species shows very little interest in the other, but a lot of interest in their own species. I once saw my male impressa approach a female elongated, head bob for a few minutes and then move off. The female elongated seemed slightly defensive initially but then continued eating and ignored the dejected male impressa. I have seen female elongated choose to cohabitate hides with the impressa, despite the impressa being larger. No ramming or aggression has been observed except between elongateds.
> The species live in the same range and I doubt they would hybridise. No sign of illness, indeed the health of most of them has improved since being in my care which probably has to do with becoming comfortable in the new environment, soaking and much better diet than in a hunters camp or the wild life market.
> Sorry if I upset anyone, I am not advocating mixing, but sharing my experience.



What you and everyone reading must understand is that mixing species is not an automatic death sentence. It does not _always_ result in death and sickness. The point is that _sometimes_ it _does_ result in sickness and death. If we were to randomly grab a few hundred tortoises and make 100 mixed species enclosures, some percentage of those enclosures would not experience major disease outbreaks or fighting. Do you know how to predict which ones will work and which ones won't? I don't. Do you know of a vet that can diagnose all the latest raging tortoises diseases on a live tortoise, even if money is no issue? I don't, and I know a lot of vets that do a lot of tortoise work.

This being the case, it is a huge gamble to mix species. Some people are willing to take that chance. I used to be one of them. You know what changes people's minds? When they have a disease outbreak that results in a bunch of their tortoises dying. Some people are smart enough to learn this lesson from watching someone else go through this issue. Others have to learn the hard way. For people who have been around long enough, and seen enough, they realize that a person can only play russian roulette so many times before they eventually lose.

The goal is to help as many people as possible to not have to learn this lesson the hard way.


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## Tom (Oct 4, 2015)

sullygirl85 said:


> I have a question, I have combed the internet about it for weeks and cannot find an answer.......My son has a red foot tortoise, now as I read I know that certain species carry different types of diseases and if you get a new tortoise definitely the need to quarantine it initially is important. However, my question is, can you house a red foot with an indian star? I think that it is important to note, that my son's red foot is very young and only weighs about eh 60 grams last I checked. So I thought perhaps two babies would be better. I have no idea, hence he reason I ask the experts.



1. Species should not be mixed, both for disease potential reasons and behavioral reasons.
2. Tortoises should not be kept in pairs.
3. Quarantine of new animals is important.
4. RFs and Indian stars have different feeding and care necessities. 

Both of these are awesome species, but they should each be housed in their own enclosures.


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## ohio (Jan 17, 2016)

Got the fact that we don't mix species, but i was reading that there are many "sub-species" with in one species. So my question is for example i have Russians and was looking through the subspecies of the Russians and had a very hard time telling them apart. So if I can't tell them apart is it OK to house them together? Their range is pretty large in the wild. Same with my Hermanns, I can tell east from west, but the eastern range is very diverse.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 25, 2016)

In my opinion, it's too late now to worry about intermixing the different sub species of Russian tortoises. None of us here in the States realized there even were subspecies, so what we have now is a bunch of 'mutts.'

When I learned that there were sub species, I asked a very knowledgeable tortoise person (Egyptiandan) to I.D. the Russians in my care, and I kept all one subspecies and adopted out all the others. So I'm pretty sure I have 1.3 Kazbecistan (spelling???).

If you don't plan on allowing them to breed, it really doesn't make any difference.


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## ohio (Jan 26, 2016)

Well thank you for your input, but was hoping that one day they may pro-crate because i thought it was hard to breed Russians with a high success rate. maybe helping stop the WC imports. Once i get them out of hibernation someone might be able to tell me the sub-species. Unfortunately I have rescued all my from craigslist. (a big no no) I have always rescued dogs and cats that i have ever owned, never bought, so i figured i might as well rescue these guys. What i found is that most people selling on craigslist bought the tortoise on a whim and once they realized the commitment they get ride of them (most cases improper husbandry and diet lack of knowledge on even sexing) i know i can give them some stability for hopefully the next 50 years or so. From what i gathered most were bought at petsmart/petco. And they get to spent their summers outside in natural sunlight.


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## Robert Hutchens (Jul 27, 2017)

I'm new here and found this conversation to be very interesting. I know this topic has died down but from my experience. Working with over 30 species of tortoise and keeping some myself. The best scenario for keeping multiple species in one enclosure is if there hatchlings from the same facility that would naturally coexist sometimes in the wild. For example elongated and mountain tortoises and leopard and let's say a tent tortoise. Other than that don't ever try it. It's not fair to the animals.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Jul 27, 2017)

Robert Hutchens said:


> I'm new here and found this conversation to be very interesting. I know this topic has died down but from my experience. Working with over 30 species of tortoise and keeping some myself. The best scenario for keeping multiple species in one enclosure is if there hatchlings from the same facility that would naturally coexist sometimes in the wild. For example elongated and mountain tortoises and leopard and let's say a tent tortoise. Other than that don't ever try it. It's not fair to the animals.


Hi Robert


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## SGT Fish (Oct 10, 2017)

just an observation to add to the list. I often let my Russian and box turtle roam around in my sulcata enclosure. I know, I'm a horrible human being and shell keeper. But I have been very surprised by how the sulcata and the smaller torts don't even know each other are there. they completely ignore each other. However, the box turtle does try to mate with a male Russian, and he get aggressive. But the sulcata walks around like he is all alone, and the Russian isn't scared of the sulcata one bit, and will try to eat from the same plate


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## mike taylor (Oct 10, 2017)

Some of us have big collections of tortoises . Some have cost us thousands of dollars and many years to get the groups we have thriving. Notice how I said thriving and not surviving. So when new members come here for advice we give them the proper advice. All of us have a bad habit or two . But we try to give good advice . What to look for ,how to setup enclosures,what works best for us in our location,and much other stuff . Mixing species is never a good idea . Tortioses take a while to show signs of sickness . For a beginner to notice their tortoise is sick it maybe to late to save it's life . That's why we tell people not to .


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## Erik Elvis (Oct 26, 2017)

See any problem with tortoises of different species but like care that you have raised being allowed to graze together for couple hours while you watch them? I would think it would be good for them to see another tortoise here and there.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Oct 26, 2017)

Erik Elvis said:


> See any problem with tortoises of different species but like care that you have raised being allowed to graze together for couple hours while you watch them? I would think it would be good for them to see another tortoise here and there.


Why would it do them good?
Tortoises are solitary and territorial and would feel threatened by a stranger on their turf. Except for a male who would maybe happily disturb a female in quite another way. 
IMHO tortoises would be quite content if they never saw another tortoise in their whole lifetime.


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## JoesMum (Oct 26, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Why would it do them good?
> Tortoises are solitary and territorial and would feel threatened by a stranger on their turf. Except for a male who would maybe happily disturb a female in quite another way.
> IMHO tortoises would be quite content if they never saw another tortoise in their whole lifetime.


I agree. Another tortoise is a rival for territory and food. It's not a friend. Putting them together creates unnecessary stress.


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## Erik Elvis (Oct 26, 2017)

Well because anxiety or stress is part of life. And that’s assuming all contact it’s stressful... And even if it is maybe it makes day to day life more appreciative. I know they’re not smart but maybe giving them a little natural stress here and there makes them more tolerant in general. I mean they do run across other torts here and there in the wild.


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## JoesMum (Oct 26, 2017)

Erik Elvis said:


> Well because anxiety or stress is part of life. And that’s assuming all contact it’s stressful... And even if it is maybe it makes day to day life more appreciative. I know they’re not smart but maybe giving them a little natural stress here and there makes them more tolerant in general. I mean they do run across other torts here and there in the wild.


And in the wild they will fight... or one of them will leave the territory claimed by the dominant animal. In captivity, leaving isn't an option. So you either end up with a fight or an animal that is stressed for preventable reasons.

Yes, stress is natural. Forcing an animal into a stressful situation that they would normally avoid if at all possible is not.


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## Erik Elvis (Oct 26, 2017)

Well I’m certainly not saying let them fight.


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## no one (Oct 26, 2017)

Wouldn't you want to live a stress free live if you had the chance? Better for your health.


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## JoesMum (Oct 26, 2017)

Erik Elvis said:


> Well I’m certainly not saying let them fight.



So why wait until they fight?

A stressed tortoise becomes withdrawn, doesn’t eat as much, loses weight and becomes sick. It doesn’t need to fight to become stressed. The fact that it is put in a position that it feels it wants to leave, but cannot is enough to cause stress. 

Simple welfare standards dictate that you should never put any creature in this position ... and yet you are advocating it “as long as they don’t actually fight”

It is no different, in my mind, to making sure they get the correct diet and environment to live in. Sure, they might survive a poor diet or enclosure setup, but that doesn’t make it right to care for them that way. 

If you put the best interests of the animals first then you don’t stress them any more than is necessary ... which means keep them separate. 

And now I feel you are arguing for arguments sake... I and others with decades of tortoise keeping experience have made our positions clear and I do not propose to continue to debate it.


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## Erik Elvis (Oct 26, 2017)

I don’t know. I’m looking at it from a human perspective. I mean if you really have no idea what’s bad do you really know what’s good. That’s why this is a debatable topic. Like sickness if your raised in a bubble and realeased into the real population is it good for you.


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## Erik Elvis (Oct 26, 2017)

See your just pushing the cohabitation argument. I’m not saying to do that. Just let them mingle couple hours (supervised) here and there


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## no one (Oct 26, 2017)

Sorry mixed up live and life.


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## Erik Elvis (Oct 26, 2017)

Animal exposed to natural controlled stress here and there will be able to better real stress that you can’t control.


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## Erik Elvis (Oct 26, 2017)

Anyone will tell you a sheltered child will have more trouble in the real world.


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## no one (Oct 26, 2017)

Now you are comparing children with tortoises to make your choice acceptable. For who? No one can tell you what to do. Only make you think about it before you do it. It still would be your choice what so ever.


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## Tom (Oct 26, 2017)

SGT Fish said:


> just an observation to add to the list. I often let my Russian and box turtle roam around in my sulcata enclosure. I know, I'm a horrible human being and shell keeper. But I have been very surprised by how the sulcata and the smaller torts don't even know each other are there. they completely ignore each other. However, the box turtle does try to mate with a male Russian, and he get aggressive. But the sulcata walks around like he is all alone, and the Russian isn't scared of the sulcata one bit, and will try to eat from the same plate


I don't think you are a horrible human, I think you are taking a large risk with absolutely no benefit.

On the bright side, if one or all of your animals get sick and die, you will already know why, and you won't have to spend a bunch of money on diagnostic testing or necropsy with your vet.


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## Tom (Oct 26, 2017)

Erik Elvis said:


> I don’t know. I’m looking at it from a human perspective…



And there is the most common problem I encounter every single day in my job. Animals aren't humans. They don't have our capacity for reason and logic. While some animals are social, like us, many species, like our tortoises, are not social. They don't want or need interaction with others of their kind. Breeding for many animal species is essentially rape. Ever watched russians courting and breeding? Or blue tongue skinks, or monitors? Its brutal and the female usually walks away bleeding and scarred, heck sometimes the males are torn up too.



Erik Elvis said:


> I mean they do run across other torts here and there in the wild.


In the wild every surviving tortoise from that region has been exposed to all the same disease organisms and parasites, and because they are still alive and well, we can assume that they have the ability to survive those particular pathogens and parasites. Mix those tortoises with other tortoises from other regions, or other continents and the result is frequently a fatal biological soup.




Erik Elvis said:


> Like sickness if your raised in a bubble and realeased into the real population is it good for you.



Expose a child to _some_ stress and _some_ potential pathogens and they develop coping skills and disease resistance. Expose them to _too much_ of either and they get sick or die. Expose them to the wrong foreign pathogen that they have no resistance to and they die.

The debate here is how much stress and what kind of stress is "good" for them, and how much or what kind is to much and bad.

Likewise, limited exposure to everyday bacteria and pathogens is one thing, while exposure to tortoise specific pathogens from other parts of the world is an entirely different thing.


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## Bambam1989 (Oct 26, 2017)

Wow I love a good friendly debate.
Tom beat me to one of the comments that I was going to make. Tortoises are not people- we are social creatures where they are solitary and so the comparison is stretching a bit.
I do believe that some stress is good but not the kind that is going to cause actual anxiety. Provide a different kind of stress maybe. Like emphasizing the search for food by stashing it in different areas of the enclosure. Or taking them for strolls in new(but safe) areas so they are exploring. I guess I am describing more of an enrichment..


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## Tidgy's Dad (Oct 26, 2017)

Tortoises are prey animals. They scare easily. They suffer from a certain amount of stress whenever a shadow falls over them. 
But our tortoises are not kept in natural environments, if you have safe, secure, indoor and outdoor enclosures for them the stress will be kept to a minimum. i am not going to play Halloween tricks on my tortoises to see how they react or in the hope that it somehow makes them stronger. 
if your tortoise is not in danger why make it feel as though it might be?
Our tortoises will never experience their natural environment, thank goodness, so give it a content, stress free existence. It will still get scared enough in day to day life, but popping balloons to make it jump seems pretty silly to me. 
Allow your tortoise a good life, people.


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## Erik Elvis (Oct 27, 2017)

Thanks for the replies guys. I’m just curious. I watch “kamp kenan” on you tube and he keeps some black mountain tortoises and elongateds together. I know it depends on the species general personality. You also see people with Galapagos and Aldabra torts with each other. I’m not saying keeping something like an eastern box with a red foot. 

And for prey animals torts do warm up to humans. I’m thinking mainly because they’re food obsessed and associate you with it.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Oct 27, 2017)

Okay, so the two different species haven't annihilated each other on this occasion due to disease, violence or whatever. 
But can you say they're better off together?
Or would they be better separated?
Other than space what possible reason is there to house two species together?


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## Tom (Oct 27, 2017)

Erik Elvis said:


> Thanks for the replies guys. I’m just curious. I watch “kamp kenan” on you tube and he keeps some black mountain tortoises and elongateds together. I know it depends on the species general personality. You also see people with Galapagos and Aldabra torts with each other. I’m not saying keeping something like an eastern box with a red foot.
> 
> And for prey animals torts do warm up to humans. I’m thinking mainly because they’re food obsessed and associate you with it.



I keep telling people that Kenan is not the guy to take advice from. Just because he played Russian Roulette and lived to tell about it, doesn't mean you should play, or that it is a good game to recommend.

And Galops should NEVER be housed with Aldabras. One species is shy and submissive while the other is aggressive and combative. They are *NOT* compatible.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Oct 27, 2017)

Remember the story : about the man at the circus, he puts his head in the lions mouth ! But I don’t !!!


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## Anyfoot (Oct 28, 2017)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> Remember the story : about the man at the circus, he puts his head in the lions mouth ! But I don’t !!!


Is it safe to climb into the canon.


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## Erik Elvis (Oct 28, 2017)

Anyfoot said:


> Is it safe to climb into the canon.



I think I did!


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## Anyfoot (Oct 29, 2017)

Where in a zoo in Lanzarote. I'm not sure of all the species type in my video. Obviously some leopards. I thought this was a good example of not mixing species. 
I'll let you guys tell us what species are in here, and pick out all the domination that's going on. Not sure if you can see in the video but the bully started nipping the Leo's beak up against the wall


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## JoesMum (Oct 29, 2017)

There’s a small male with big hormones going on there! He challenges anything. 

And then there’s one sitting in the food dish stopping others from being there

And an attempt by another to shove the bigger animal out of the food dish. 

Quite a stressful environment! Good video @Anyfoot


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