# Am I feeding too much? Baby Sulcata



## DaneC020 (Sep 2, 2018)

Hey guys! Me and my brother bought two baby sulcata's from a lady who had a pair that breed for the first time. I was in the market for one and my brother's was just kind of an impulse buy but he is a veterinarian and takes good care of his animals. I chose this lady's hatch-lings because she wasn't in it for the money so I could tell she really cared for the torts and they all looked very healthy and were eating in front of me vigorously.

So both of our torts are about a year and 5 months old now and doing well. But we both are feeding differently and don't know if either of us is feeding too much, the right amount, or too little(Doubtful). I am also concerned that their rapid growth lines are going to lead to early pyramiding which I want to try to avoid. So this is what we feed them and some pictures so you can see the shell/growth lines.

Daily
- A handful of springmix (Basically if you grabbed half a handful of spring mix and fluffed it to fill your entire hand)
- 1 Muzuri pellet (wet with fresh rye grass cut finely in)

Occasionally
- Yellow Squash
- Hibiscus flowers
- Cactus
- Zucchini
- Strawberry tops (Very rare)

My brother feeds about the same but he only does the muzuri pellet every 2 days. My tort eats about 80% of her greens and always eats the muzuri pellet. Here are pictures of their shells and you can see the scutes are raised slightly but from everyone else's pictures that looks like normal growth but I just want to make sure. Let me know what you guys think and we will adjust accordingly!

Thanks!
Dane

Edit: Also how long do you guys soak for and how often at this age? Mine drinks water all the time so I only soak every week but sometimes ever 3 days for about 20 minutes.


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## Reptilony (Sep 2, 2018)

Is humidity always at 80% and are you soaking daily? That's the only reason why your babies might be pyramiding.


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## Reptilony (Sep 2, 2018)

Also pictures of the enclosure would help greatly all members to help you. Spring mix should not be the staple their diet.


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## DaneC020 (Sep 2, 2018)

So you soak daily? I am not even sure if they are pyramiding. That's why I posted the photos because if they are showing early signs I want to try to increase humidity and do what ever I need to to focus on reducing it. From everyone elses baby pictures my shells look normal but wanted to be safe. Thats why I took some side ways shot so you could see the schutes at an angle to tell me if they are fine or not.


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## Reptilony (Sep 2, 2018)

The second picture look like it is starting to. Have you read the care sheets for sulcatas on this forum? Not enough humidity cause pyramiding. Soaking daily is essential for babies.


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## Reptilony (Sep 2, 2018)

To answer your question yes I personaly soak 2 times a day for 30 min.


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## Ray--Opo (Sep 2, 2018)

Welcome, you have a great looking sully. I started Opo out all wrong. When I found this forum I got on the right track with soaks and humidity. I struggle with pyramiding. It starts to get smoother. Then over night it seems to pop up again . So the struggle goes on. Wish I had found this forum earlier.


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## DaneC020 (Sep 2, 2018)

Reptilony said:


> To answer your question yes I personaly soak 2 times a day for 30 min.



Yes, I have read the care sheets but they don't specify at what age you reduce the soaking. Is 1.5 years old still considered a baby? I thought I also read that over feeding them causes them to grow too quickly and could also cause pyramiding? I will increase my soaks to daily then to try to help. But the amount of food I am feeding doesn't see overkill? I will read the care sheet again in case I forgot something since I read it when I first found this forum.


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## Reptilony (Sep 2, 2018)

DaneC020 said:


> Yes, I have read the care sheets but they don't specify at what age you reduce the soaking. Is 1.5 years old still considered a baby? I thought I also read that over feeding them causes them to grow too quickly and could also cause pyramiding? I will increase my soaks to daily then to try to help. But the amount of food I am feeding doesn't see overkill? I will read the care sheet again in case I forgot something since I read it when I first found this forum.


I tought they where younger. You may do it a couple times a week still it doesn't have to be every day but soaking doesn't hurt. You're just helping them by soaking. No you can't overfeed unless they show signs of obesity which really rarely happens and yours are not obese and still growing.


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## Reptilony (Sep 2, 2018)

Which sully is yours on the pictures? up or down?


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## DaneC020 (Sep 2, 2018)

Reptilony said:


> Which sully is yours on the pictures? up or down?



The one looking left. I was in middle of soaking when I took the pic.


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## Reptilony (Sep 2, 2018)

DaneC020 said:


> The one looking left. I was in middle of soaking when I took the pic.


Ok I think you're doing a better job than your brother lol. It's looking pretty smooth


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## DaneC020 (Sep 2, 2018)

Reptilony said:


> Ok I think you're doing a better job than your brother lol. It's looking pretty smooth



Unfortunately both of our enclosures are open top so I mist mine every day a few times a day since I work from home. He unfortunately isn't able to do that so he soaks more often and mist when he can. I am in the process of upgrading my enclosure now since my sully is getting bigger and I am going to try and do a closed top somehow but leave a cut out for the light to try and help maintain a more consistent humidity. I was just really concerned I was causing too much growth with my feeding. I love my little sully and trying to do the best I can for him.


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## Reptilony (Sep 2, 2018)

DaneC020 said:


> Unfortunately both of our enclosures are open top so I mist mine every day a few times a day since I work from home. He unfortunately isn't able to do that so he soaks more often and mist when he can. I am in the process of upgrading my enclosure now since my sully is getting bigger and I am going to try and do a closed top somehow but leave a cut out for the light to try and help maintain a more consistent humidity. I was just really concerned I was causing too much growth with my feeding. I love my little sully and trying to do the best I can for him.


Yes this upgrade is a good idea. Do you have an hygrometer?


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## DaneC020 (Sep 2, 2018)

Reptilony said:


> Yes this upgrade is a good idea. Do you have an hygrometer?



Yeah right now it fluctuates between low to high 70's depending and close to 80 depending on spray time and what not.


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## TechnoCheese (Sep 2, 2018)

Welcome to the forum!

There is no such thing as overfeeding a tortoise. In fact, they should have food available at all times.

You need a closed chamber enclosure. It is impossible to hold 80+% humidity in an open one, and it doesn’t look like the shell is smoothing out. What kind of hydrometer are you using?

You should be feeding mostly weeds and very few grocery store foods, and I wouldn’t feed mazuri more than once-twice a week. It can be pretty addictive to them.

I would continue to soak daily to stop the pyramiding, as well as getting a closed chamber enclosure.

I’m assuming the two tortoises live in separate enclosures?

If you haven’t already, please give these a read-
How To Raise A Healthy Sulcata Or Leopard, Version 2.0 https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php...ealthy-Sulcata-Or-Leopard,-Version-2.0.79895/ 

For Those Who Have a Young Sulcata... https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/For-Those-Who-Have-a-Young-Sulcata....76744/

Beginner Mistakes https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/Beginner-Mistakes.45180/


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## Maro2Bear (Sep 2, 2018)

DaneC020 said:


> Yes, I have read the care sheets but they don't specify at what age you reduce the soaking. Is 1.5 years old still considered a baby? I thought I also read that over feeding them causes them to grow too quickly and could also cause pyramiding? I will increase my soaks to daily then to try to help. But the amount of food I am feeding doesn't see overkill? I will read the care sheet again in case I forgot something since I read it when I first found this forum.



You definitely want to do daily soaks 20-30 mins or longer. How long? We stopped soaking ours when he got toooo heavy to easily lift every day AND was bigger than our cement mixing tub/container. @Tom is the Sulcata guru on here...soak soak soak, and feed good “stuff” , no fruits, and over feeding is not a cause of pyramiding (based on 100s of posts and the Sully Care Sheet).

Good luck.


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## Maggie3fan (Sep 2, 2018)

Every morning about 6am I roam the neighborhood yards looking for blooms and weeds. I mostly feed whats growing wild. But I also feed a breakfast of store produce. Mustard greens, greenleaf lettuce, radicchio, kale, collards and more. You cannot feed growing Sulcata too much. But you want to feed a wide variety of stuff. Also the molasses in the Mazuri can be addicting to young Sulcata.
Research all you can, and ask a lot of questions. Also you need a closed chamber, so for now wrap some aluminum foil over the open top. Soak in warm water daily. But not more as I believe that robs them of the nutrients in the fresh poop. Too many soaks makes the stool move thru too fast. Just my experience and opinion...


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## Maggie3fan (Sep 2, 2018)

This is Big Sam last year. He likes mud puddles. He'll turn 5 this year and just hit 45 pounds.In the middle is Knobby,the poster boy for pyramiding. He was found roaming the streets of Portland Oregon


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## DaneC020 (Sep 2, 2018)

I am really surprised everyone is saying you can't over feed them. Most reptiles will eat as much as you can present to them, snakes for example would eat an unhealthy amount of mice if given the opportunity. Apparently I should give more food then? My tort would eat double what I put in there if I allowed it. I will try to do more soaks since many people recommend it. But please read my post as it is not a BABY. I need to make sure I am getting the right advice for my sulcata at her appropriate age.


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## Reptilony (Sep 2, 2018)

DaneC020 said:


> I am really surprised everyone is saying you can't over feed them. Most reptiles will eat as much as you can present to them, snakes for example would eat an unhealthy amount of mice if given the opportunity. Apparently I should give more food then? My tort would eat double what I put in there if I allowed it. I will try to do more soaks since many people recommend it. But please read my post as it is not a BABY. I need to make sure I am getting the right advice for my sulcata at her appropriate age.


Yes if it wants more feed more lol! As other member have said you can soak everyday untill you can't lift your tort!


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## Maggie3fan (Sep 2, 2018)

DaneC020 said:


> I am really surprised everyone is saying you can't over feed them. Most reptiles will eat as much as you can present to them, snakes for example would eat an unhealthy amount of mice if given the opportunity. Apparently I should give more food then? My tort would eat double what I put in there if I allowed it. I will try to do more soaks since many people reco mend it. But please read my post as it is not a BABY. I need to make sure I am getting the right advice for my sulcata at her appropriate age.



They will eat until they are full. Normally they would be grazing all day. I would feed yours 1 or 2 big handsful. If they start to leave some feed less.


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## TriciaStringer (Sep 2, 2018)

We have an almost two year old. We’ve had her just a few months. She was already pyramiding a little. I soak her once or twice a day. She is outside all day and comes inside at night into her closed chamber. You can’t soak too much. I’d still do it everyday. I do it right when she goes out in the morning. While she soaks I go around the yard clipping weeds and preparing all her food. I then soak her again right before she goes inside. This is the soak I usually skip if I’m going to only because sometimes it gets late before I go grab her.


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## TechnoCheese (Sep 2, 2018)

DaneC020 said:


> I am really surprised everyone is saying you can't over feed them. Most reptiles will eat as much as you can present to them, snakes for example would eat an unhealthy amount of mice if given the opportunity. Apparently I should give more food then? My tort would eat double what I put in there if I allowed it. I will try to do more soaks since many people recommend it. But please read my post as it is not a BABY. I need to make sure I am getting the right advice for my sulcata at her appropriate age.



In the wild, tortoises spend most of their time grazing. In captivity, they should also be allowed to graze. Snakes are not grazing animals, so they can be overfed. Think of tortoises like cows.

Tortoises are constantly growing and they need the energy to do it, so they really cannot be overfed.


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## DaneC020 (Sep 2, 2018)

TriciaStringer said:


> We have an almost two year old. We’ve had her just a few months. She was already pyramiding a little. I soak her once or twice a day. She is outside all day and comes inside at night into her closed chamber. You can’t soak too much. I’d still do it everyday. I do it right when she goes out in the morning. While she soaks I go around the yard clipping weeds and preparing all her food. I then soak her again right before she goes inside. This is the soak I usually skip if I’m going to only because sometimes it gets late before I go grab her.



I see you are also in Louisiana. You weren't concerned having a 2 year old Sulcata living outside? Some people have told me not to do it because they are too young at that point but I have a 15ftx15ft outside setup already built for him when he gets a little older. I would love to put him out there during the day so he has a more natural environment but I was worried he was too young and would get sick. Am I over worrying?


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## TriciaStringer (Sep 2, 2018)

DaneC020 said:


> I see you are also in Louisiana. You weren't concerned having a 2 year old Sulcata living outside? Some people have told me not to do it because they are too young at that point but I have a 15ftx15ft outside setup already built for him when he gets a little older. I would love to put him out there during the day so he has a more natural environment but I was worried he was too young and would get sick. Am I over worrying?


Our tortoise is 8 inches. They can live outside at 8-10 inches full time with a locked night box. I think I’m waiting until spring to put her out full time though plus we haven’t put her wooden door on her night box yet. She will have a heated night box for winter. The high humidity we have is great for her. I also provide cool hides for her to escape the heat. Where are you in LA?


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## TriciaStringer (Sep 2, 2018)

DaneC020 said:


> I see you are also in Louisiana. You weren't concerned having a 2 year old Sulcata living outside? Some people have told me not to do it because they are too young at that point but I have a 15ftx15ft outside setup already built for him when he gets a little older. I would love to put him out there during the day so he has a more natural environment but I was worried he was too young and would get sick. Am I over worrying?


Here is one of her cooler hides.


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## DaneC020 (Sep 2, 2018)

TriciaStringer said:


> Here is one of her cooler hides.


I live in Gonzales, LA. How long do you think a 15ft by 15ft enclosure going to work out for me? I am thinking ill need to go bigger sooner than I think.


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## TriciaStringer (Sep 2, 2018)

DaneC020 said:


> I live in Gonzales, LA. How long do you think a 15ft by 15ft enclosure going to work out for me? I am thinking ill need to go bigger sooner than I think.


I’m in Denham Springs. It could last a couple of years. My enclosures aren’t big enough. We are beginning to fix our house to hopefully sell it and get more land. I saw someone say 40x40 is a starting point, but as large as you can is the way to go.


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## Tom (Sep 2, 2018)

DaneC020 said:


> Yes, I have read the care sheets but they don't specify at what age you reduce the soaking. Is 1.5 years old still considered a baby? I thought I also read that over feeding them causes them to grow too quickly and could also cause pyramiding? I will increase my soaks to daily then to try to help. But the amount of food I am feeding doesn't see overkill? I will read the care sheet again in case I forgot something since I read it when I first found this forum.



Hi Dane! There is a lot of incorrect info floating around out in the world. Old outdated stuff that wasn't correct 30 years ago and it still isn't correct today. A lot of that stuff was based on incorrect assumptions of how they live in the wild ad what they need in captivity. Most of the tortoise world has still not figured this out. I want to break down some of your questions and answer in my own words. All the other advice on your thread here is good too, but I like to say it in my own way.

Your tortoises are very small for their age. This means that even thought the breeder may have loved the tortoises, she wasn't following the correct care advice.

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. We used to blame it on all sorts of things like too much food, wrong food, fast growth, lack of calcium or UV, etc… All of that was wrong. They pyramid because we house them in open topped enclosures that are simply too dry. This is not a desert species. They hatch during the monsoon season when its wet, hot and very humid over there.

How much to feed? As much as the tortoise wants of the _right _foods. Grocery store greens and spring mix are not the right foods.

I like to feed Mazuri once or twice a week. Its a good supplement to an otherwise high fiber, grassy, weedy diet, but I prefer to feed mostly real foods.

For soaking: I like to soak them daily until they reach about 100 grams. After that I start skipping a day now and then. By 1000 grams, I think 2 or 3 times a week is enough. For well started babies, this is about a year. For dry started, slower growing babies, it can take 2-3 years, or more, to reach 1000 grams. Its about size, not age. Because they can grow at vastly different rates and for a wide variety of reasons, age doesn't matter for much of anything.

From the way you've worded things, it appears you've been reading a mix of both new and old info. I hope we can help get you on the right track.


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## DaneC020 (Sep 4, 2018)

Tom said:


> Hi Dane! There is a lot of incorrect info floating around out in the world. Old outdated stuff that wasn't correct 30 years ago and it still isn't correct today. A lot of that stuff was based on incorrect assumptions of how they live in the wild ad what they need in captivity. Most of the tortoise world has still not figured this out. I want to break down some of your questions and answer in my own words. All the other advice on your thread here is good too, but I like to say it in my own way.
> 
> Your tortoises are very small for their age. This means that even thought the breeder may have loved the tortoises, she wasn't following the correct care advice.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info. Size is kind of impossible to tell from the pictures so I weighed him for you and he is 172g. His shell length is about 5 inches and as for age I really am not sure how old he really is, just a round about age. I think the breeder told me her babies were about 9 months old or a year old, I can't remember. I have had the turtle for 4 months. When I first got him the turtle only weighed less than 52g which was why I was a little concerned on over feeding because the amount of weight he gained. So I guess the growth rate is 30g a month, is this too low?

Also, did you think there were signs of early pyramiding in the picture of the two torts? As for the breeder she was really caring and knowledgeable. Every baby was eating like pigs and she was not selling to anybody but only those who seemed they would care for the animals. She told me a list of things I could feed but there is just so much and I am not familiar with all the weeds and plants since I know nothing about plants. Mostly afraid of poisoning the poor guy with the wrong one. She did grow her own Rye so I have also done that and feed that daily with the muzuri and every now and then I will put the tray in his cage for him to munch down. She houses them outside with a caged top to prevent animals or birds from messing with them and pulls them in at night. Our humidity is quite high so I wouldn't considered them dry raised, at least until it got to me. I do mist often though so not too dry. 

Thanks for the extra info!
Dane


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## Tom (Sep 4, 2018)

DaneC020 said:


> Thanks for the info. Size is kind of impossible to tell from the pictures so I weighed him for you and he is 172g. His shell length is about 5 inches and as for age I really am not sure how old he really is, just a round about age. I think the breeder told me her babies were about 9 months old or a year old, I can't remember. I have had the turtle for 4 months. When I first got him the turtle only weighed less than 52g which was why I was a little concerned on over feeding because the amount of weight he gained. So I guess the growth rate is 30g a month, is this too low?
> 
> Also, did you think there were signs of early pyramiding in the picture of the two torts? As for the breeder she was really caring and knowledgeable. Every baby was eating like pigs and she was not selling to anybody but only those who seemed they would care for the animals. She told me a list of things I could feed but there is just so much and I am not familiar with all the weeds and plants since I know nothing about plants. Mostly afraid of poisoning the poor guy with the wrong one. She did grow her own Rye so I have also done that and feed that daily with the muzuri and every now and then I will put the tray in his cage for him to munch down. She houses them outside with a caged top to prevent animals or birds from messing with them and pulls them in at night. Our humidity is quite high so I wouldn't considered them dry raised, at least until it got to me. I do mist often though so not too dry.
> 
> ...



52 grams for a 9-12 month old is tiny. Mine hatch at 35-40 grams. By one year they typically reach 800-1000 grams.

Hard to calculate an average growth rate per month because it greatly accelerates as they gain size, and because they all grow at such different rates and for a wide variety of reasons.

When kept mostly indoors, as babies should be, the humidity is always too low in an open topped enclosure. AC, central heating, heat lamps and dry substrate all rob moisture from the air, so even if its swampy outside, the indoor enclosure will still be too dry. Misting does little to help this. They need a closed chamber to contain the warm moist air. If the breeder was keeping them mostly outdoors, they would explain why they hardly grew for a year. Outside all day is not good for babies.

Learn from that list she gee you. Your tortoises health and well being depend on the correct diet. Plus those weeds, grasses, leaves and flowers are easy to come by and FREE!!! I didn't used to know plants at all either. I learned because of the tortoises. I hope you will too.


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## ColaCarbonaria (Sep 4, 2018)

I downloaded the app, Picture This. You just take a pic and it will help you identify the plant. Works good and then can look it up on TTT or just ask on one of the ID threads here on forum. It’s a free app btw.


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## karenbrams (Sep 5, 2018)

I recently visited the Turtle Conservancy in Ojai and one thing I learned is dandelions should be a staple. They're high in calcium and other important nutrients. You can find them at most grocery stores, especially international markets. As others have mentioned grasses, weeds and flowers are best for tortoises and should make up most of their diet. I have grasses, grape vines, gazanias, geraniums and clover growing in my enclosures. I supplement with dandelions, cactus, mulberry leaves, hibiscus and of course Mazuri pellets. I rarely feed them romaine lettuce or anything else from the grocery store. 
I just started breeding and had my first leopard hatch 6 days ago. What is best to feed a brand new hatchling? Same as older hatchlings but sticking to softer easy to chew greens? Should they start eating Mazuri right away?


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## kaycov (Sep 5, 2018)

I have an open-top tank as well, but I have a humidifier (fogger), and I cover the top with a towel. Humidity in my tank is always 80% or better. Sometimes, the guys burrow right under the hose output. I soak every, single night for about 30 minutes, and they have a "pond" in the tank which they totally ignore. LOL


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## ShirleyTX (Sep 6, 2018)

@DaneC020 I, too, thought is possible to overfeed, especially overfeeding with "wrong" food--for instance, feeding too much pellet. I thought overfeeding the wrong stuff could cause overweight, or strain on digestive organs, or force growth beyond a natural state. A couple of posters mentioned finding weeds for sulcatas. But I thought sulcatas ate 80% grass; it's the Mediterranean species that eat weeds, isn't it? Anyway, I'm glad to see your question and I'm going to follow for sure!


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## Maro2Bear (Sep 6, 2018)

Greetings...

Yes, Sullys eat a lot of grass, but many other beneficial weeds and flowers are good for them as well as part of a balanced diet. From @Tom ’s Sulcata care sheet, there are a ton of other good things (besides grass) to supplement.

Other items that are good for babies and young sulcatas:
Mulberry leaves
Grape vine leaves
Hibiscus leaves
African hibiscus leaves
Blue hibiscus leaves
Rose of Sharon leaves
Rose leaves
Geraniums
Gazanias
Lavatera
Pansies
Petunias
Hostas
Honeysuckle
Cape honeysuckle
Leaves and blooms from any squash plant, like pumpkin, cucumber, summer squash, etc...
Young spineless opuntia cactus pads

Weeds: 
There are soooooooo many...
Dandelion
Mallow
Filaree
Smooth Sow thistle
Prickly Sow thistle
Milk thistle
Goat head weed
Cats ear
Nettles
Trefoil
Wild onion
Wild mustard
Wild Garlic
Clovers
Broadleaf plantain
Narrow leaf plantain
Chick weed
Hawksbit
Hensbit
Hawksbeard


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