# Who Keeps These People In Check?



## torti (Jan 7, 2012)

Went to a pet shop and saw this. I wonder who allow these people to continue running their shops? I talked to the owner about the baby sulcatas and she said the lady from the Sacramento tortoise club told her how to house them. Mmmmm..... interesting. And isn't there a 4" rule that applies in California? I forgot to take a picture of these water turtles about 4-5 different types all housed in one tank, and they are smaller than my thumb nail.


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## Melly-n-shorty (Jan 7, 2012)

who mixes tortoise and lizards? what if a tortoise decides to chomp on a tail? poor tortoise are probably stressed.


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## torti (Jan 7, 2012)

So are the lizards. This is not the only tank. In another one there was about 5 tortoises and one little lizard. Poor thing was up against the wall just clawing.


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## Melly-n-shorty (Jan 7, 2012)

Sad Face 

you should file a report!


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## ripper7777777 (Jan 7, 2012)

That's wild, I'm used to seeing multiple tortoise species and sulcatas kept in mini saharas but this is the first lizard and tortoise cage I have seen.


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## tyguy35 (Jan 7, 2012)

we have a pet store here in ontario called big als its just the one in kitchener the rest are very clean. well anyways they have iguanas, box turtles, sulcattas, greeks, russians, long tailed lizards, curly tails in one small 20g tank. and at such a high price so no one can save them


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## wellington (Jan 7, 2012)

You should file a complaint and I would also call the Sacramento Tortoise club and find out if they do recommend this kind of husbandry. If they do, I would report them also. You should also try to educate the pet store on the proper care for these animals and that they can not be housed together and anything else they don't have right. This is one of the reasons I with this country would out law pet stores selling animals. In it for money, animal always pays


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## dmmj (Jan 7, 2012)

housing different species is not against the law.


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## wellington (Jan 7, 2012)

It isn't against the law, but I bet you could surely find some animal abuse in there and that is against the law.


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## torti (Jan 7, 2012)

I tried telling the owner about how to house baby sulcatas. Because they are really the only species that I know anything about. She told me she soaks them twice a week and that's all the water they need. She wont listen to anything I said. All she said was the person that runs the Sacramento tortoise club told her so. 

She told me she had never lost a baby, which I believe is a lie. Because there were 5 sullies in there and 3 of them looks half dead. I couldn't rescue them because I just don't have enough room for 6 adult sullies later =(


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## ascott (Jan 7, 2012)

U.S. Food and Drug Administration
10903 New Hampshire Avenue 
Silver Spring, MD 20993 
Ph. 1-888-INFO-FDA (1-888-463-6332)

You can contact them directly about the illegally undersized tortoise for sale....this will get the opportunity for them to come into the business and check on the turtle sales....and if they find any other violations great....I would not warn the pet shop that you are going to do this...as those turtle can disappear quickly (toilets are a quick way that they are disposed of in a hurry)

While it is not illegal to house variety of species together, there is also a question of public relations...perhaps if you shared your photos with the local newspaper and a blurb from you then there may be some changes ...then again may not, you know? 

By the way....what city and state is this pet shop in, if you don't mind


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## Laura (Jan 7, 2012)

print out toms current care sheet and take that or mail it to her..


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## Yvonne G (Jan 7, 2012)

Hi Lyly:

The gal who runs the Sacramento Turtle & Tortoise Club is quite well-known in Sacramento and is very well liked. She also mixes her species at home, so it stands to reason she would find nothing wrong with the pet store doing it. She has been written up in the newspaper there many times and has written a couple box turtle books. She's been taking care of turtles and tortoises for many, many years and isn't about to start changing her ways now. I am a bit surprised she told them all those lizards and tortoises were ok in that small tank, though.


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## Turtleswagg (Jan 7, 2012)

wat pet store is this??


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## l0velesly (Jan 7, 2012)

That's really surprising.. I mean, how hard is it to separate the lizards from the tortoises.. I suppose it's OK sometimes if it's just one tortoise and one lizard.


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## torti (Jan 7, 2012)

The pet shop is in Lodi, CA. They sell anything from large reptiles, to fishes, to birds (I don't mean small birds, I'm talking parrots). There's only two people that runs the store. And I believe they are the owners. The place stinks and there's bird droppings everywhere. I think 75% of the animals in the store is sick. 

She didn't say Sacramento Tortoise Club told her it was OK to house the tortoises with the lizards, she said that's how they told her to care for the sulcatas. I know nothing about the Sac Tortoise Club, don't get me wrong. 

I'm just a little mad that pet shops like these are still allowed to stay open. And people shopping in them just encourages the abuse.


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## Katherine (Jan 8, 2012)

torti said:


> Who Keeps These People In Check



You do ! Any place or person who is keeping and selling animals with disregard for there welfare is likely doing it for the $$$ so the best you can do is attempt to educate them and refuse to do business with places or people who do not adhere to a standard of care you are comfortable with. When people are in it for the $$$; and the $$$ stops coming they often become more willing to modify their system...


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## fbsmith3 (Jan 8, 2012)

I was going to make a insulting comment on her keeping lizards with tortoises and then I rememebered I kept my water dragon and Box turtle in the same cage in the early 1990's. 

As for this place, I agree call the MSPCA and USDA and do not warn them. Having sick animals will be a danger to human is taken extremely serious.


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## Sammy (Jan 8, 2012)

While u was in the pet shop, customer complained to the shop keeper 'u said it's ok to house lizard with my star tortoise, lizard bit star's toe off', shop keeper replied 'it will grow back'.


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## cherylim (Jan 8, 2012)

Similar situation to our local zoo, and this was one of their better tortoise environments:


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## Floof (Jan 8, 2012)

lushcious said:


> That's really surprising.. I mean, how hard is it to separate the lizards from the tortoises.. I suppose it's OK sometimes if it's just one tortoise and one lizard.



IMO, it's never okay to house lizards and tortoises together... Vastly different care requirements, the stress factor, the potential of them hurting each other (lizard attacking tortoise or tortoise biting lizard--either way), and, of course, the issue of parasite transfer, especially when keeping WC tortoises (as seen here) with something like bearded dragons, who are already very prone to carrying parasites in captivity (i.e. coccidia, a big concern in beardies).

Unfortunately, this isn't the only pet store that practices this awful cohabitation. I once came across a pet store in Pocatello, Idaho that houses iguanas, some 3 different subspecies of box turtle, and Russian tortoises all in one big cage. The water dish was way too high for the turtles & tortoises to get in, and it was full of iguana poop, anyway. The floor of the cage, which was something like 3x2 feet, was so covered in fake plants, food dishes, and that massive, tall water dish, that the 8 or so turtles/torts didn't even have room to walk. They at least had UVB... But that's not much consolation given the rest of the situation. I wish I'd said something.

As far as the Sulcatas are concerned, unfortunately, the new ways that are so highly recommended on this forum, that have garnered such great results, are still that--"New." Outside of this forum, most people are too set in the "old ways" of raising Sulcatas, and absolutely refuse to switch to such a drastically different care regime than what they're used to. So, the Sulcata enclosure doesn't surprise me much.. In fact, I'm more surprised that they even have a water dish and get soaked at all.

It would be absolutely wonderful if you can change their minds with the Sulcatas... You might be able to get somewhere by pointing out how stupid the "old way" is. Not in those words, mind you--I mean with logic. Like the fact that all animals need water, they aren't going to kill themselves by over-watering themselves, and then suggest a compromise: Ask him to start by offering a couple humid hides and a good water dish, then he can judge where to go from there based on his tortoises' behavior. It helps, too, if you can bring a couple caresheets... Tom's, for example, and I know AfricanTortoise.com touches on the importance of humidity/hydration--maybe enough to get across to the owner that it's not just you and this forum that believes the dry method is dangerous. If you can just get the change started, that alone is an accomplishment. Don't expect them to change their views on Sulcata care overnight, but if you can just get them on the right track... With a small addition of a humid hide, or a slight change in routine (more soaks)... It would be a start.

On the tortoise/lizard situation, and the overall sick animals/dirty store issue, it may take a visit from the authorities to get them to consider changing...


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## mattk (Jan 8, 2012)

I know how you feel. I went to a pet store in Salisbury Maryland yesterday just to see what they had. I saw this poor red foot with swollen shut eyes so first think I looked at was what lights they had on the tank. You will never guess what they were using. Yep a compact florescent bulb. I also notice the water dish was so tall that there was no way the redfoot could even use it. Well I tried to talk to one of the workers there and tell them to not use that type bulb but it was like talking to a brick wall. It just gets me so mad at times.


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## DeanS (Jan 8, 2012)

Before you take it to extremes...i.e. USDA, etc...complain to your local Animal Control Agency. If they're anything like ours (City of LA), then they'll take pet shop complaints pretty seriously. And David is right...it's not against the law to house multiple species together...provided they all have the same needs...and don't prey on one another!


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## ascott (Jan 8, 2012)

I again suggest you contact the FDA--without warning to the shop. You asked who keeps these people in check? well, we all do. When you happen upon a shop like this---you are the first line of help for the mis treated critters.

I would not feel bad about contacting the proper agencies, these folks are not housing a turtle or lizard or two...they are housing multiple animals of different species within the same enclosures and not maintaing sanitary conditions (according to what you have shared and pics). 

There is nothing that is going to change anything unless you do the first request to the appropriate agencies....I know some will immediately jump on me for saying that---as there is a real hatred for the agencies, as they are often targeted as the "bad guys"....however, are you alright with simply telling your story, showing some pics, shaking your head---and tossing up your hands with the statement " I don't know what to do, what can I do? 

Well, there were some tips here offered and what you do with them is your choice, you know?



> I think 75% of the animals in the store is sick.



Along with FDA (they are only going to initially be interested in the undersized turtle sales) you can also contact the SPCA http://spcala.com/aps/crueltytipline.php and let them know the situation and they can advise to you what they are able to do.

I wish you well on the decisions to make.....


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## torti (Jan 8, 2012)

Thanks everyone on the feed back of what to do. Cause like you guys said talking to the owners/workers is like talking to a brick wall. In a few days when I'm off from work I will definately call some of these numbers and see what I get from them. Ill keep you guys updated.


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## zesty_17 (Jan 8, 2012)

ascott said:


> U.S. Food and Drug Administration
> 10903 New Hampshire Avenue
> Silver Spring, MD 20993
> Ph. 1-888-INFO-FDA (1-888-463-6332)
> ...




i second this.


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## jaizei (Jan 8, 2012)

The FDA would be the last ones I contacted. Their 'solution' for the undersized turtles will be to destroy them.


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## ascott (Jan 8, 2012)

> The FDA would be the last ones I contacted. Their 'solution' for the undersized turtles will be to destroy them.



I am always curious as to where this type of statement is generated from, yes, there are times that they will kill an very ill animal....but also, there are loads of facilities that they use that they turn over the animals to for care....just as when other agencies confiscate illegal shipments of exotics---they are not just killed for the sake of killing.

Please offer up a substantiated factual report that this is what their practice is for for every situation. This is such a scare tactic statement, IMHO that is.

I know that this is not the case for every animal. Actually, here is where it gets weird for me (that statement I mean)...so should we allow the turtles to be housed and kept in a reckless unsanitary unhealthy condition and allow them a slow and agonizing death at the hands of a pet shop owner that more times than not---know exactly how to care for these critters and simply choose to NOT do what should be---simply because they are interested in their bottom line? Then those same animals are sold off to a person that is advised how to poorly take care of the animal for even a further tortured time frame? What would you prescribe as the full proof remedy?

I will apologize here with my passion on this topic....if we choose to do nothing then who will stop this craziness?


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## jaizei (Jan 9, 2012)

ascott said:


> > The FDA would be the last ones I contacted. Their 'solution' for the undersized turtles will be to destroy them.
> 
> 
> I am always curious as to where this type of statement is generated from






> *Code of Federal Regulations*
> TITLE 21--FOOD AND DRUGS
> CHAPTER I--FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION
> DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES
> ...




I don't know where the idea that the FDA will destroy seized tortoises came from.  Though, I will admit that the FDA's Compliance Policy Guides allow for some discretion in allowing other organization to take the animals, I wouldn't count on it.

If you must report something, start local.


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## ascott (Jan 9, 2012)

FDA's Compliance Policy Guides allow for some discretion

It allows for alot of discretion actually  You will see this discretion at work when ever you read an article of a large sieze of illegal exotic tortoises of all species and sizes.... 

btw, last time I read the DMV handbook---you are only allowed to drive the posted speed limit....we see how that works out....speed, get a ticket, pay a fine and speed on our way out of the court house....

It is awesome though that you have posted and shared that portion of information, it can and does come in handy... 

My suggestions still remain. Keep in mind, we all have an opinion of the best way to do things all based on our own life experiences....


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## jaizei (Jan 10, 2012)

ascott said:


> FDA's Compliance Policy Guides allow for some discretion
> 
> It allows for alot of discretion actually  You will see this discretion at work when ever you read an article of a large sieze of illegal exotic tortoises of all species and sizes....
> 
> btw, last time I read the DMV handbook---you are only allowed to drive the posted speed limit....we see how that works out....speed, get a ticket, pay a fine and speed on our way out of the court house....



This really makes no sense and does nothing to prove your point. However, using your analogy: The penalty for speeding is a fine. Just like the 'penalty' for undersized turtles is to destroy them. Does this mean that everyone caught speeding pays a fine? No, officers have discretion and can give warnings. Does this mean that 100% of turtles are destroyed? No, it is acceptable to remove them from distribution in other ways. But I wouldn't consider that to be the rule. The turtles *will* be destroyed, unless another organization is willing to take them. How many zoos do you know that want sulcatas or RES? What about rescues? Exactly. Even including rescues as one of those organizations is dubious at best because rescues don't really meet the FDA's goal: removing the turtles from distribution (keeping the turtles out of the hands of children). If an undersized turtle is turned over to a rescue, odds are that it was by local entity. The FDA is not concerned about the welfare of the turtles. They care about the sale and distribution of those turtles. They don't publicize when they freeze the ones no one wants.



ascott said:


> It is awesome though that you have posted and shared that portion of information, it can and does come in handy...



So my posting of that was the first time you read it?


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## ascott (Jan 10, 2012)

> So my posting of that was the first time you read it?



No



> This really makes no sense and does nothing to prove your point.



No point trying to be proven



> The turtles will be destroyed



If this statement works for you, then so be it



> They don't publicize when they freeze the ones no one wants.



But they will pay for huge freezers? Interesting.

Appears here that it is much more important for you to be right, (and the path that this thread is going is pointless to me, as I do not desire to be part of a pissing match) so go ahead...


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## Jacqui (Jan 11, 2012)

cherylim said:


> Similar situation to our local zoo, and this was one of their better tortoise environments:



 As I started reading this thread, visions of almost every zoo I have ever been in popped into my mind and then I saw your post showing the same thing.


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## dmmj (Jan 11, 2012)

When RES babies are confiscated here in CA, they are turned over the the various CTTC chapters, since according to state law an animal has to be euthanized with a shot, no gas chambers.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 11, 2012)

or freezers.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 12, 2012)

I've said on a different thread that we're not going to put up with squabbles on the forum and I meant it. I'm the one who deleted your posts, blame me and only me. If you want to continue the debate about who keeps these people in check, fine, but no squabbles.


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## Jacqui (Jan 12, 2012)

I do have to agree with those who recommended starting at the low level rather then going in with the "big guns". "Big guns" just tend to blow things up, create a mess and yet not really solve things the way we hope they will. The way we hope they will, being the one where the animals are saved.


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## Squidget (Feb 3, 2012)

Wow there's are so many things wrong with this pic! Let's just skip ahead that torts and beardies are bein kept together. But they are on woodchips which can cause impaction not to mention that those greens (most likely lettuce) are ways too big for the beardies and bearded dragons eat crickets and other bugs and idk what type of torts those are but somehow I doubt they eat crickets as well. Plus they look dehydrated. I would have flipped on that owner (I'm not one to take animal abuse lightly and I have a big mouth lol) and I would have told everyone I could see what horrible pet store owners they were. This is just wrong. Sorry I know this is a tort forum but owning a formerly abused beardie I saw first hand what this kind of husbandry does to them and how hard it is to correct if even possible, and I felt this needed to be addressed lol.


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## tortoiselady (Feb 4, 2012)

Very sad.



dmmj said:


> When RES babies are confiscated here in CA, they are turned over the the various CTTC chapters, since according to state law an animal has to be euthanized with a shot, no gas chambers.



Most of our chapters do not have any place for these red ear sliders. It is always a challenge to even get one a home. Just sad...


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## Turtleswagg (Feb 4, 2012)

dmmj said:


> When RES babies are confiscated here in CA, they are turned over the the various CTTC chapters, since according to state law an animal has to be euthanized with a shot, no gas chambers.



at this park called Ralph B. Clark they have a bunch of abandoned RES and western painteds but the rangers protect them, idk if ur in socal but if u are u should check it out


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## Bow (Feb 4, 2012)

Turtleswagg said:


> at this park called Ralph B. Clark they have a bunch of abandoned RES and western painteds but the rangers protect them, idk if ur in socal but if u are u should check it out



Where I live there is a lake that used to be polluted, it's good now, that has had red eared sliders in it for around 80 years. They are almost all abandoned pets. It's sad but they are so at home in that lake. Some are massive, I've been kayaking in the lake since I was small, every once and awhile you pass a monster of a turtle. It seems to be an alright situation but that's mostly because not much else survived the pollution.


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## Turtleswagg (Feb 5, 2012)

Bow said:


> Where I live there is a lake that used to be polluted, it's good now, that has had red eared sliders in it for around 80 years. They are almost all abandoned pets. It's sad but they are so at home in that lake. Some are massive, I've been kayaking in the lake since I was small, every once and awhile you pass a monster of a turtle. It seems to be an alright situation but that's mostly because not much else survived the pollution.



one RES was swiming along side me like id wanted me to feed id r somethin. i picked it up and he just looked around and i put him back and he swam really casually away


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## Bow (Feb 5, 2012)

Turtleswagg said:


> one RES was swiming along side me like id wanted me to feed id r somethin. i picked it up and he just looked around and i put him back and he swam really casually away



That would be cool. I once tried to catch a hatchling, I thought I could put it in the pond.... It was way to fast for me!


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## dmmj (Feb 14, 2012)

Turtleswagg said:


> dmmj said:
> 
> 
> > When RES babies are confiscated here in CA, they are turned over the the various CTTC chapters, since according to state law an animal has to be euthanized with a shot, no gas chambers.
> ...


I am in so cal and I am a member of the foothill chapter of the CTTC, as for parks I have visited a lot of parks and in all of the ones I have seen they have mostly RES in them people all over dump them there, I recently took a family picture in a rancho cuacomonga park and there was a nice big pond and surprise surprise there were about 30 or so RES that I could count.


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