# Can a tortoise get sad? :-(



## Micky 49 (Apr 13, 2016)

Hi I just got a tortoise, I found him in the street and he was run over, his shell was cracked and bleeding, but don't worry he or she not sure is doing fine now. Eating like a maniac. But it is making funny sounds, I think I'm not sure it sounds like a clacking sound or sometimes a hissing sound. So my question is can tortoise get sad or angry and how would you know. Thanks


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## Anyfoot (Apr 13, 2016)

Micky 49 said:


> Hi I just got a tortoise, I found him in the street and he was run over, his shell was cracked and bleeding, but don't worry he or she not sure is doing fine now. Eating like a maniac. But it is making funny sounds, I think I'm not sure it sounds like a clacking sound or sometimes a hissing sound. So my question is can tortoise get sad or angry and how would you know. Thanks


Hi Micky and welcome. 
They can definitely get angry. I'll let the experts help you out. 

For now I would post some pictures of your tort and its injury so you can receive the appropriate advice. 

Good luck, and a good save BTW.


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## JoesMum (Apr 13, 2016)

Both clicks and hisses are normal. The hiss is more to do with breathing air out quickly when a tort pulls his head in rathe than anything else. 

Torts become withdrawn and stop eating when they're being bullied or things are not right. From what you said, your little guy has had a rough time, but eating isn't a problem 

As for anger, they head-butt/ram other torts to tell them to get out of their area. Unfortunately they also use this technique to woo females so sometimes it's impossible to tell!


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## Tom (Apr 13, 2016)

Could be a sign of respiratory infection too.

Where are you?
What species?
What are your four temperatures? Warm side, cool side, basking area and overnight low?
What heating and lighting equipment are you using?
What are you feeding it?


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## Yvonne G (Apr 13, 2016)

Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

'Sadness' and 'anger' are human emotions. Tortoises don't have human emotions. They get stressed and afraid and maybe protective of their space, but not anger or sad or lonely.


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## Anyfoot (Apr 13, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> Hi, and welcome to the Forum!
> 
> 'Sadness' and 'anger' are human emotions. Tortoises don't have human emotions. They get stressed and afraid and maybe protective of their space, but not anger or sad or lonely.


 So if 2 torts are invading each other's space, eyeballing each other and being vocational with each other causing stress levels to rise to the point where battle commences, at the point it turns into a battle, this is still not considered out of anger because everything else has failed? 
What about happy, is there such thing as a happy tort?


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## ascott (Apr 13, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> So if 2 torts are invading each other's space, eyeballing each other and being vocational with each other causing stress levels to rise to the point where battle commences, at the point it turns into a battle, this is still not considered out of anger because everything else has failed?
> What about happy, is there such thing as a happy tort?



Yes, that is correct. Remember as Yvonne said, the emotion of sadness and anger are human.

We humans put our feelings onto a creatures behavior instead of seeing what they are doing as reactionary for their survival....sad and angry are simply emotions and serve very little purpose in actual survival...

A tortoise who has someplace safe to rest, sun, hang out....has food sources, water source and maybe a little sexual action from time to time would be what we humans equate to "happy"...but that in all actuality is just life....just my take.


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## Anyfoot (Apr 13, 2016)

ascott said:


> Yes, that is correct. Remember as Yvonne said, the emotion of sadness and anger are human.
> 
> We humans put our feelings onto a creatures behavior instead of seeing what they are doing as reactionary for their survival....sad and angry are simply emotions and serve very little purpose in actual survival...
> 
> A tortoise who has someplace safe to rest, sun, hang out....has food sources, water source and maybe a little sexual action from time to time would be what we humans equate to "happy"...but that in all actuality is just life....just my take.


Thanks ascott.
Glad you didn't say they could be happy. Happy and sad go hand in hand. 
So basically, I've spent time,money and effort making my enclosure and my torts dont give a damn. . Joking.


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## ascott (Apr 13, 2016)

Anyfoot said:


> Thanks ascott.
> Glad you didn't say they could be happy. Happy and sad go hand in hand.
> So basically, I'm spend time,money and effort making my enclosure and my torts dont give a damn. . Joking.



See, now you just displayed happiness, annoyance and humor all in one posting....good work human...


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## Anyfoot (Apr 13, 2016)

ascott said:


> See, now you just displayed happiness, annoyance and humor all in one posting....good work human...


Lmao.


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## Micky 49 (Apr 14, 2016)

Thanks everyone for the response it was funny and educational.


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## Rue (Apr 14, 2016)

Saying that animals don't have a given emotion is just as anthropomorphic as saying they do.

We don't know what they feel.

We have named our emotions. We can deduce that animals feel similar emotions. We can guess that the happiness or pleasure an animal feels is similar in nature to what we feel.

So who decided that a tortoise can feel (their equivalent of our) pleasure or pain...but not (their equivalent of our) happiness or sadness? Depression is sadness. We know animals get depressed.


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## ascott (Apr 14, 2016)

Rue said:


> Saying that animals don't have a given emotion is just as anthropomorphic as saying they do.
> 
> We don't know what they feel.
> 
> ...



I beg to differ....in the true sense of the word of depressed, which is an emotion and not a physical sensation......there is no proof that they get depressed, but it is again proof that humans force our definitions on animals behaviors.....there have been stories that animals will get "depressed" when their human dies...well, actually when the human dies the routine of the day stops...that behavior can have an affect on an animal for awhile until they develop a new routine...and on those few instances where an animal also dies, it is due to dehydration and not depression...a dog is a pack animal and if their pack changes they will wait for it to resume to the normal routine....simple as that....no therapy session needed, no anti depressants needed....not the same as people who are depressed....not at all.

Also, pleasure and pain are not hand in hand....pain is a physical sensation that is caused by injury====unless you are speaking of an human emotion which can also include emotional pain, which is completely different than physical pain....pleasure is also an emotion and not a physical sensation..there is a difference. Happiness and sadness are both emotions and not physical sensations....


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## Rue (Apr 15, 2016)

I was using 'depressed' to refer to a longer-term, or on-going sadness and not as 'depression' or anything that borders on mental illness (or requires pharmaceuticals). Dehydration is also a physical condition. This complicates the basic concept.

Again, we can't know exactly what an animal feels, we can only extrapolate that they may feel what we feel - or something similar.

I - and tortoises - are diurnal animals that require sunshine.

If I go outside on a beautiful sunny day...I feel happy. It might not obviously show. I might not smile or do a happy dance, but I can identify that feeling as happy.

If I go outside on a cloudy, rainy day...I feel sad. Just a basic emotion. If it rains for weeks on end, my sadness will intensify.

I am comfortable in assuming that a tortoise might also feel happy in the sun and sad on a cloudy day - even if they don't show added behaviours that might 'prove' it more convincingly. Beyond that basic emotional response...who knows?

Anyway...time to make a coffee run. My morning coffee makes me happy.


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## ascott (Apr 16, 2016)

Rue said:


> I was using 'depressed' to refer to a longer-term, or on-going sadness and not as 'depression' or anything that borders on mental illness (or requires pharmaceuticals). Dehydration is also a physical condition. This complicates the basic concept.
> 
> Again, we can't know exactly what an animal feels, we can only extrapolate that they may feel what we feel - or something similar.
> 
> ...




I agree...humans have emotions related to humans and defined as so....not equal to animals and their natural behavior....this is not to say that animals are any less important nor any less necessary...just yet another species...just as humans are....I hope you enjoyed your coffee....I on the other hand find no pleasure in coffee...it has always smelled as what I imagined dirt would taste like....


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## Rue (Apr 16, 2016)

No no! Coffee tastes much better than dirt...

I still remember the last time I was tossed from my horse (years ago)...I had a big mouthful of it. Serves me right for landing face down in the arena with my mouth wide open (musta been yelling on the way down)...


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## Big Charlie (Apr 16, 2016)

I don't think they get sad like people do. They take whatever happens to them and never think "why me?" They may feel cold and wet when stuck in the rain but the moment the sun comes out, they forget about how they were feeling previously. I think they live in the moment. When kept in less than ideal conditions, they may react in ways that make them look sad or angry to us, but it is somewhat different from how we feel. When Charlie drags the lawn furniture all over the yard, he seems like he is on a rampage - I can't know what makes him do that. They are motivated to do things that feel good, like bask in the sun and munch on grass; that is part of their survival instinct.


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## jockma (Apr 16, 2016)

I do not think tortoises have emotions like sadness, joy, anger, etc but I believe they have more basic "moods". Contentment, distress, boredom, aggression. They aren't really feelings as much as they're survival instincts. If we project human emotions onto tortoises, they'd be a lot more mundane. For example, eating food while sitting in a safe room that is at a comfortable temperature seems like an average boring thing for a human, but for a tortoise it would be a situation where 1. there is no stress due to fear of predators 2. there is no discomfort due to high or low temps 3. there is an ample supply of food and water. Leaving nothing to be desired, the tortoise is content and nothing could be better. Therefore, by human standards, the tortoise can be considered to be "happy". 

The only thing that gives me doubt is the fact that tortoises aren't very "expressive" OR social so we can't possibly know for sure what they're capable of feeling. Birds are a different story. They can't comprehend some complex situations but they can empathize on a very basic level (necessary for the survival of the flock in the wild) and experience some basic emotions like anger, joy, excitement, impatience, and loneliness. Similar brain size, but birds have more emotional capacity...that we know of. So who knows.


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## Madkins007 (Apr 17, 2016)

Actually- we CAN determine animal emotions. As humans, we are good at observation and correlation. If we consistently see an animal show a set of specific signs, then observe the subsequent behaviors, we can make a darn good assumption about the mood of the animal. This is how we know when dogs are enjoying themselves, bears are being curious, deer are nervous, a horse is hurting, and so on. 

We can also look at the parts of the brain associated with emotions, much as we do with those parts associated with scent and vision, and get a sense for how important or nuanced that aspect is. 

Are we perfect at it? Nope. Are there a lot of philosophical aspects to emotion we can debate endlessly? Yep.

I think it is pretty safe to say that tortoises can experience certain emotions or sensations- feeling good, feeling bad, discomfort, pain, hunger, fear, curiosity, loneliness (to some degree, and seems to vary by species and individual). We can argue about the terms used, or if they are emotions or something else.

Another element of the discussion would be something like 'do they feel loyalty or attachment to people', to which I would argue 'not really to people, but definitely associate certain people to food and cares.


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## jockma (Apr 17, 2016)

Don't some species travel together to scavenge for food? I read that redfoots can travel in groups and feast together. If that is the case then the tortoise would likely have an instinct to "bond" or at least "trust" certain other tortoises in order to survive. Dogs, cats and birds tend to perceive or treat humans like we're the same or similar species which is what allows us to bond so well (projection of instinctual bonding on one another), tortoises may be the same. The human may just actually be an inexplicably huge and weird-looking tortoise that is excellent at finding food and shelter, according to the tortoise. Whether that is an actual bond or "loyalty" is up for debate but I believe certain species, or maybe even all tortoises in general, have more complex social structures and social comprehension than they're often given credit for.


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## tortoishell (Nov 11, 2016)

This is more of a rant, but j believe that all animals have the ability to feel emotions. You've seen dogs and cats send signs that they're happy. In the wild, there have been cases of siblings, mates, etc caring for each other. I believe there is something about a bear caring for his wounded sister. Doesn't this count as love? 
I'm not saying that all animals express emotions ever in their lifetime, but we don't know that they just don't find a need for it. 
I've always said that that's a big difference between animals and humans. Animals, as far as we know, want nothing more than to survive. 
Fictional novels aside, we have no need to love, hate, or feel sadness. I'm not saying that we can't. I just want to get rid of the stereotype that animals are mentally less functional than we are. It is my firm belief that animals can feel. Whether they want to express these emotions is a different matter. This wasn't based off of science, but I don't think it's morally right to call an animal dumb because we can't see beyond their faces. 
I'm getting on a long rant. Just, I think animals feel emotions.


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## JoesMum (Nov 12, 2016)

I don't think torts feel sad like you or I do. Or even like a dog does. 

They're not social creatures. They don't miss company and get lonely. 

They know what they like and dislike and I suspect that's pretty much the limit of tortoise happiness. 

If they don't like the size of a space, the food available, the incomer to their territory then they'll attempt to do something about it. Otherwise they'll stay put and eat. 

If they can't do something about what they don't like then withdrawal and failure to thrive is common, but I wouldn't call that sadness.


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## kathykit (Nov 12, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> Hi, and welcome to the Forum!
> 
> 'Sadness' and 'anger' are human emotions. Tortoises don't have human emotions. They get stressed and afraid and maybe protective of their space, but not anger or sad or lonely.


 
Thank you all of the infomation!
I just worry about my little tortoise! He try to hide and doesn't eat.
I thought is that he feel sad because I just keep a little dog as a pet!
But I will try to take more care of my tortoise.


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## MichiganFrog (Nov 12, 2016)

One of our male sulcatas seems to get upset when I don't feed him every day. Usually he'll do something like try to walk all over the food tray and refuse to eat when I try to feed him after Sibi has been feeding him for a few days. After a few tries, he eventually does eat, but I interpret his initial behavior as his way of showing me that he's upset at me for not having fed him for the past few days. Whether it's because he missed me or it's just because he's just a creature of habit, I don't know. Not everyone may agree with my assessment, but I have to say that I think that at least some tortoises are a lot more complicated than they might appear.


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## tortoishell (Nov 12, 2016)

Michigan Frog, I completely agree with you. It's not right to judge a living being from what we can see on the outside. I feel like a lot of us are saying that only humans can feel emotions, but as far as I know, we've never been inside an animal's brain.


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## Beasty_Artemis (Nov 12, 2016)

My Red Footed tortoise will just bury herself in her moss after I take her out for food and water if I don't talk to her. Hide under her log.
But if I stand around my tortoise table where she can see me, and chat with her, she hangs out for hours. She comes to my voice and tries to climb up the wall to get to me! She also climbs on top of her hide logs when she gets attention, so I made the slope more gentle with some moss.


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## tortoishell (Nov 12, 2016)

Beasty_Artemis said:


> My Red Footed tortoise will just bury herself in her moss after I take her out for food and water if I don't talk to her. Hide under her log.
> But if I stand around my tortoise table where she can see me, and chat with her, she hangs out for hours. She comes to my voice and tries to climb up the wall to get to me! She also climbs on top of her hide logs when she gets attention, so I made the slope more gentle with some moss.


I would say that's a great example of happiness and/or love. Glad to hear your tort likes it!


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## Tidgy's Dad (Nov 12, 2016)

MichiganFrog said:


> One of our male sulcatas seems to get upset when I don't feed him every day. Usually he'll do something like try to walk all over the food tray and refuse to eat when I try to feed him after Sibi has been feeding him for a few days. After a few tries, he eventually does eat, but I interpret his initial behavior as his way of showing me that he's upset at me for not having fed him for the past few days. Whether it's because he missed me or it's just because he's just a creature of habit, I don't know. Not everyone may agree with my assessment, but I have to say that I think that at least some tortoises are a lot more complicated than they might appear.


Agreed. 
Emotions are survival tools. 
Evolution ensures that an individual animal has the correct set of emotions to the necessary degree to allow the more likely survival of the individual and species. 
Therefore different species have different emotions not necessarily the same, or to the same degree, as ours. 
Tortoises are complicated vertebrates with a long evolutionary history.
They have emotions in their survival kit, but they may not always be comparable to ours and they certainly can't think about them and analyse them like us. 
'Happy' and 'sad' are probably not the right adjectives, but content and not content would apply.


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## tortoishell (Nov 12, 2016)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Agreed.
> Emotions are survival tools.
> Evolution ensures that an individual animal has the correct set of emotions to the necessary degree to allow the more likely survival of the individual and species.
> Therefore different species have different emotions not necessarily the same, or to the same degree, as ours.
> ...


Couldn't have put it better . Tortoises most probably experience emotions beyond what we can understand. We don't know whether they respond or realize it.


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## enzot91 (Nov 12, 2016)

One thing that's often overlooked when this topic comes up is the fact that owners imagining their animals to be 'happy' or 'sad' can have a knock on effect on their wellbeing. If someone thinks their tortoise is sad for example, it's likely that they'll try to fix this and in turn look after them better. This is why I'm ok with it, and in fact I think it can be a positive thing more often than not.


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## Big Charlie (Nov 12, 2016)

enzot91 said:


> One thing that's often overlooked when this topic comes up is the fact that owners imagining their animals to be 'happy' or 'sad' can have a knock on effect on their wellbeing. If someone thinks their tortoise is sad for example, it's likely that they'll try to fix this and in turn look after them better. This is why I'm ok with it, and in fact I think it can be a positive thing more often than not.


Very good point! When Charlie sees me and starts coming towards me, I can't help but think he is hopeful that I'm going to get him a treat. I feel guilty if I walk away from him. I run and quickly cut off a few hibiscus branches so he won't be disappointed.


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## sibi (Nov 12, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> Hi, and welcome to the Forum!
> 
> 'Sadness' and 'anger' are human emotions. Tortoises don't have human emotions. They get stressed and afraid and maybe protective of their space, but not anger or sad or lonely.



Sorry Yvonne, I have to disagree. Who says that sadness and anger are only human emotions? Whether you believe in evolution or creation, it doesn't prove that humans are the only animals to experience sadness or anger. I think you'd have experts on animal behavior disagree with you too. Take for instance, the elephant. When one of their own dies, they've displayed a behavior that resembles that of humans when we grieve. They gather together, stay with their dead, wailing for days. Sadness? You can't convince me that animals don't feel sadness. In fact, it had been documented that when an animal experiences the death of their offspring or mate, they have often given up the will to live. And, anger? Again, look at the behaviors of elephants. It's not fear that moves the elephant to stampede and charge their target when they feel threatened. If evolution gave these emotions to animals, fine. I rather believe that God gave some animals emotions of sadness and anger, among others. The scriptures say that God made man in his image, that is, with attributes and qualities that he has. Love, sadness, anger are some such qualities. It's also reasonable to say that before man, he created animals with similar qualities. Why wouldn't he? The main difference between animals and humans is the ability to reason and understand/ analyze, which animals cannot do. But, to say that animals can't reason; therefore, they can't feel emotions is a fallacy.Animals show anger and sadness differently than humans. But, to say they only have emotions of fear would be an understatement.


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## tortoishell (Nov 12, 2016)

I agree but I just want to add that animals not being able to analyze in the way humans do is not necessarily a bad thing nor does that makes animals inferior; I'm not saying that Sibi said that but it seems to be floating around this thread.


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## dmmj (Nov 13, 2016)

could it be an elephant feeling sad over the death of another simply them worrying about the survival of the group? Maybe they stay around for days because they don't understand why the elephant is not moving? for them to feel "sad" over the death of another elephant they would have to understand what death is and I don't think they know what that is.


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## dmmj (Nov 13, 2016)

just some thoughts


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## sibi (Nov 13, 2016)

dmmj said:


> could it be an elephant feeling sad over the death of another simply them worrying about the survival of the group? Maybe they stay around for days because they don't understand why the elephant is not moving? for them to feel "sad" over the death of another elephant they would have to understand what death is and I don't think they know what that is.



I think human and animal alike know what death is. How they know it is beyond my understanding. And because it is, doesn't mean I don't feel the sting of death. I just think it's the same for many creatures.


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## Vanessa Schnautz (Nov 29, 2016)

I don't know about tortoises... but when my rabbit lost it's bonded partner, she grieved. Yes, I'm using the human term grieve, because I don't know what the term is in the rabbit mind. Her expressions of joy stopped. Rabbits run and jump and twist mid-air to express joy. She expressed no joy for a month, ignored me, turned her back to me (a rabbit's body language of shunning), stopped rushing up to me for petting, and didn't move around much. She was sad at the loss of her companion. Rabbits are difficult to bond, because they attack other rabbits out of fear. But once they are bonded, they snuggle, groom each other, and seek each other out. When my rabbits are extremely relaxed and content, they do an exaggerated flop when they lie on their sides. Both ears forward mean I'm paying attention. One ear back means only half paying attention. Both ears back at 45 degrees means anger and attack. Same with tail at 45 degrees. I could go on. So why not tortoises? I haven't owned a tortoise yet... that's happening in Spring. But I do believe that all animals are capable of feeling different degrees of so-called happiness, contentment, stress, fear, anger, sadness, and probably more emotions that we are aware of that are relative to their existence and world, because we who are at the top of the food chain, only know and understand our human emotions. So yes - it is anthropomorphic to say that animals feel happiness/sadness, and it is anthropomorphic to say that they don't. It is anthropomorphic - because we are human, not animals, so we only know human emotions. We are only capable of posing our human concepts onto animals. If we were tortoises, we might be telling a different story. But we are not tortoises, so we will never truly know, and thus it is acceptable to apply the next best thing - anthropomorphism.


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## ZEROPILOT (Nov 29, 2016)

dmmj said:


> could it be an elephant feeling sad over the death of another simply them worrying about the survival of the group? Maybe they stay around for days because they don't understand why the elephant is not moving? for them to feel "sad" over the death of another elephant they would have to understand what death is and I don't think they know what that is.


I've read stories of elephants holding a grudge against certain humans and retaliating years later. That would show emotion.
However, I don't think that a tortoise gets sad. Confused, maybe.


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## Speedy-1 (Nov 29, 2016)

Big Charlie said:


> I don't think they get sad like people do. They take whatever happens to them and never think "why me?" They may feel cold and wet when stuck in the rain but the moment the sun comes out, they forget about how they were feeling previously. I think they live in the moment. When kept in less than ideal conditions, they may react in ways that make them look sad or angry to us, but it is somewhat different from how we feel. When Charlie drags the lawn furniture all over the yard, he seems like he is on a rampage - I can't know what makes him do that. They are motivated to do things that feel good, like bask in the sun and munch on grass; that is part of their survival instinct.


 *I think you have summed it up pretty well ! D. H. Lawrence wrote a poem , probably 100 years or so ago ! It was about "self pity" yet another human emotion !*

*Self Pity*
I never saw a wild thing 
sorry for itself. 
A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself.


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