# New table



## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

Hi, I've just built a table for my 7 month old horsefield tortoise and have recently moved her from a vivarium to a table, and am constantly worrying about her, I worry about substrate, lights, food, humidity and general well being. I will add some pictures of the table and would appreciate any advice you can give. Thanks Mark.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Sep 3, 2016)

Hello Mark


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## Tidgy's Dad (Sep 3, 2016)

Hello, Mark, and a very warm welcome to Tortoise Forum. 
Looks pretty good to me, what are the dimensions ?
I'd be a bit careful of the military presence in the enclosure. I'd be worried my tortoise would bite off pieces of plastic or paint. 
Also I'd be a bit concerned about maintaining humidity levels.
Have you read http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
and http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...or-other-herbivorous-tortoise-species.107734/
or http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/
and http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/ ?
Lots of good advice in these.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 3, 2016)

Hi Mark, and welcome to the Forum!

Yipes! A war zone!!

I would like to have seen the tortoise in the scenario to be able to tell how big the table is.


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## RosemaryDW (Sep 3, 2016)

Welcome! What is the plant in the water bowl? I don't think I've seen anything like it.


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Hello, Mark, and a very warm welcome to Tortoise Forum.
> Looks pretty good to me, what are the dimensions ?
> I'd be a bit careful of the military presence in the enclosure. I'd be worried my tortoise would bite off pieces of plastic or paint.
> Also I'd be a bit concerned about maintaining humidity levels.
> ...



Hi, thanks for taking a look. The table is 600mm wide and 1200mm long I've looked at so many threads and think a lot of it is bad advice. I'm not worried about her eating any plastic or paint but thanks for your concern I'm more concerned about the substrate as I do my own with 40% play sand and60% top soil.


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

RosemaryDW said:


> Welcome! What is the plant in the water bowl? I don't think I've seen anything like it.


Hi it's long leaf plantain


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> Hi Mark, and welcome to the Forum!
> 
> Yipes! A war zone!!
> 
> I would like to have seen the tortoise in the scenario to be able to tell how big the table is.


It's D Day.


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Hello, Mark, and a very warm welcome to Tortoise Forum.
> Looks pretty good to me, what are the dimensions ?
> I'd be a bit careful of the military presence in the enclosure. I'd be worried my tortoise would bite off pieces of plastic or paint.
> Also I'd be a bit concerned about maintaining humidity levels.
> ...


Like the pictures in the threads you shared, they are in vivariums with glass sides! A big no no. So I don't take advice off people like that thanks.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 3, 2016)

Mark Cassell said:


> It's D Day.
> 
> View attachment 185667



Aw...he's just a itty bitty baby! You were concerned about substrate. Here's what HermanniChris says about substrate for the testudos in his care sheet (it was written for Greeks, but works just as well for Russians:

"The best possible substrates for housing Greek tortoises indoors are a 50/50 mix of top soil and play sand, cypress mulch and aspen wood shavings. When using aspen it is very important to make sure the tortoises stay hydrated because it tends to be very dry. Rabbit pellets will suffice but do not hold humidity well and mold will grow quickly in soiled areas. Cedar and pine bedding are an absolute NO, as they are toxic to tortoises."


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> Aw...he's just a itty bitty baby! You were concerned about substrate. Here's what HermanniChris says about substrate for the testudos in his care sheet (it was written for Greeks, but works just as well for Russians:
> 
> "The best possible substrates for housing Greek tortoises indoors are a 50/50 mix of top soil and play sand, cypress mulch and aspen wood shavings. When using aspen it is very important to make sure the tortoises stay hydrated because it tends to be very dry. Rabbit pellets will suffice but do not hold humidity well and mold will grow quickly in soiled areas. Cedar and pine bedding are an absolute NO, as they are toxic to tortoises."


Thanks that's great, I added more sand but it wasn't firm enough. She couldn't get a foothold when she was on her back trying to self right herself. So now I've added more soil and it's probably 50\50. Should I wet it up quite often?


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 3, 2016)

Hi and welcome.....Here's my take on part. You MUST get rid of most of the sand, it causes impaction. I personally don't use sand at all. I use , small sized orchid bark, or cypress mulch, or plain top soil with NOTHING in it. Aspen shavings are too dry. I have at least 10 chelonia in large aquariums, 100 gallons or more and I have been using glass sided containers for years, and I have NEVER had a problem. That opinion is kind of old school. So I am one of a group that seriously disagree with the no glass people. That way for one I can look across the room and see what my tortoises are doing. I can glance across the room and see if a baby is on it's back. I also have 6 large tort tables for the others and everybody has an outside pen where they spend their days. This is what I see wrong with your set up.
1. Is that a German cross I see in the table itself?
2. The water dish needs to be full, and put more down into the soil for easier for a baby to get in.
3. I don't see night warmth, I use black light 70 watts for night warmth. Remember he's a baby  he will sleep a lot and he needs extra warmth at night.
4. There's no way for you to create humidity.
Well, I guess that's all I will say for now. I run "Maggie's Small Special Needs Tortoise Rescue". All my animals are blind or missing jaws or missing legs, etc. I have given you my 'opinion' and experience, that how 'I' keep my animals. You have many experts here, I am simply experienced, and that's how I keep my animals, and I am very successful.
But you will get different opinions, take what you can use and forget the rest. Yvonne is 'super moderator' and has almost 40 years of experience. If she tells you something, LISTEN to her and try and do what she says. And *PLEASE* do not say...(_So I don't take advice off people like that thanks_.) If you don't like the advice, don't take it. But this is a very friendly forum, don't say anything hostile, or hurt people's feelings. You can disagree politely. I personally don't appreciate that comment even tho it was said to someone I don't particularly care for. Believe me, I am normally rude and blunt and will speak my mind, but this is a great forum, I have come VERY close to being kicked off, so I am just sharing some info with you.
You are like so many people without experience, you ask for advice then either argue with the person giving the advice or insult them. If you don't agree with the advice, simply don't take it, but please don't insult the person who is trying to help you. This is a family forum and we try to keep it fun and easy. That is NOT to say we haven't had arguments, or bad disagreements, but we have moderators who are good and fair. So all that is advice from one who spends a lot of time in trouble here. So welcome, and if you don't agree with me fine, but remember, we are trying to help you with what you asked, please understand. And your baby is too small to sex.
Welcome from Oregon.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 3, 2016)

Mark Cassell said:


> Thanks that's great, I added more sand but it wasn't firm enough. She couldn't get a foothold when she was on her back trying to self right herself. So now I've added more soil and it's probably 50\50. Should I wet it up quite often?



To help the substrate to be a little firmer, pat it down with the palm of your hand.

I like to have it MOIST underneath, but not too wet on top. To achieve this, when it starts to dry out, I pour water down into a corner so it flows under, not on top.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Sep 3, 2016)

It is indeed a great forum and I believe has the most up to date and reliable care sheets to be found, as well as a set of experienced, knowledgeable and caring tortoise and turtle owners who are very happy, day after day, to share their experiences and wisdom.
For some issues, there are disagreements or people may have their own particular favourite way of doing things. I prefer to use coco coir, others use cypress mulch, or orchid bark and so on.
But I firmly agree that sand is an impaction risk, and also doesn't help with humidity and is why I don't use aspen, either.
But we all have our opinions..
What is wrong with glass ? It's quite possible to have an enclosure without it, of course, but i'm interested to know why you dislike it. 
And what @Tom has to say.


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> It is indeed a great forum and I believe has the most up to date and reliable care sheets to be found, as well as a set of experienced, knowledgeable and caring tortoise and turtle owners who are very happy, day after day, to share their experiences and wisdom.
> For some issues, there are disagreements or people may have their own particular favourite way of doing things. I prefer to use coco coir, others use cypress mulch, or orchid bark and so on.
> But I firmly agree that sand is an impaction risk, and also doesn't help with humidity and is why I don't use aspen, either.
> But we all have our opinions..
> ...


Hi I've been getting a lot of advice from the tortoise table, and other websites, that all say "don't use glass" it stresses them out and have 70\30 soil, sand mix. What do you mean by "impact tion"? 
Thanks Mark.


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> To help the substrate to be a little firmer, pat it down with the palm of your hand.
> 
> I like to have it MOIST underneath, but not too wet on top. To achieve this, when it starts to dry out, I pour water down into a corner so it flows under, not on top.


Thanks Yvonne, that's a good idea


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> Hi and welcome.....Here's my take on part. You MUST get rid of most of the sand, it causes impaction. I personally don't use sand at all. I use , small sized orchid bark, or cypress mulch, or plain top soil with NOTHING in it. Aspen shavings are too dry. I have at least 10 chelonia in large aquariums, 100 gallons or more and I have been using glass sided containers for years, and I have NEVER had a problem. That opinion is kind of old school. So I am one of a group that seriously disagree with the no glass people. That way for one I can look across the room and see what my tortoises are doing. I can glance across the room and see if a baby is on it's back. I also have 6 large tort tables for the others and everybody has an outside pen where they spend their days. This is what I see wrong with your set up.
> 1. Is that a German cross I see in the table itself?
> 2. The water dish needs to be full, and put more down into the soil for easier for a baby to get in.
> 3. I don't see night warmth, I use black light 70 watts for night warmth. Remember he's a baby  he will sleep a lot and he needs extra warmth at night.
> ...


Sorry I've read so many different websites saying don't use glass sides because it stresses them out and to use a 70/30% mix soil, sand. I didn't mean to offend anyone, I totally agree with you!


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## Yvonne G (Sep 3, 2016)

Mark Cassell said:


> Hi I've been getting a lot of advice from the tortoise table, and other websites, that all say "don't use glass" it stresses them out and have 70\30 soil, sand mix. What do you mean by "impact tion"?
> Thanks Mark.



Impaction is when the sand sticks to the food after he has traipsed all over it with sand on his feet, then he eats it and being heavy, it sinks to the bottom of the stomach, builds up and eventually plugs up the 'works.'


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> Hi and welcome.....Here's my take on part. You MUST get rid of most of the sand, it causes impaction. I personally don't use sand at all. I use , small sized orchid bark, or cypress mulch, or plain top soil with NOTHING in it. Aspen shavings are too dry. I have at least 10 chelonia in large aquariums, 100 gallons or more and I have been using glass sided containers for years, and I have NEVER had a problem. That opinion is kind of old school. So I am one of a group that seriously disagree with the no glass people. That way for one I can look across the room and see what my tortoises are doing. I can glance across the room and see if a baby is on it's back. I also have 6 large tort tables for the others and everybody has an outside pen where they spend their days. This is what I see wrong with your set up.
> 1. Is that a German cross I see in the table itself?
> 2. The water dish needs to be full, and put more down into the soil for easier for a baby to get in.
> 3. I don't see night warmth, I use black light 70 watts for night warmth. Remember he's a baby  he will sleep a lot and he needs extra warmth at night.
> ...


1- yes it's an iron cross
2- it's full enough for her and is sunken into the table
3- it's 23° at night and have heat mat underneath when temperature drops. 
4- humidity ranges from 50‰min to 80‰ tops.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Sep 3, 2016)

Yes, some people believe that tortoises can see through the glass, or don't understand why they can't get through it, or see their own reflection in it and try to fight themselves. 
Many people solve this by putting tape around the bottom couple of inches so the tortoise can't see out. it works for them.
Others have encountered no problems with it and large closed topped vivs are often used as they are great for keeping in the humidity. 
Impaction with sand or gravel can be fatal.
The end of this article particularly talks about sand and how it can even make horses sick.
http://www.tortoise.org/general/impact.html


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## Yvonne G (Sep 3, 2016)

Just a note on heat at night: The Testudos need a drop in temperature between day and night. HermanniChris has been keeping and raising different types of Testudos for years and has written several care sheets, reminds us about the cooler nights for Testudos. Go to the Greek and Hermanns sections and read Chris's care sheets.


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Yes, some people believe that tortoises can see through the glass, or don't understand why they can't get through it, or see their own reflection in it and try to fight themselves.
> Many people solve this by putting tape around the bottom couple of inches so the tortoise can't see out. it works for them.
> Others have encountered no problems with it and large closed topped vivs are often used as they are great for keeping in the humidity.
> Impaction with sand or gravel can be fatal.
> ...


Oh dear why do all these websites tell you to put them in sandy conditions like there natural habitat?


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## Yvonne G (Sep 3, 2016)

Because that's old school. We've evolved. And one thing to remember, even if the native soil is sand, a tortoise hardly ever eats off the ground in the wild. He bites off bits of food from a stalk, leaf or blade...in other words, food up off the ground.


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> Because that's old school. We've evolved. And one thing to remember, even if the native soil is sand, a tortoise hardly every eats off the ground in the wild. He bites off bits of food from a stalk, leaf or blade...in other words, food up off the ground.


Hopefully she shouldn't be too bad she's only been in there a few weeks and I feed her on a big piece of slate which I clean everyday. Thanks


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

Mark Cassell said:


> Hopefully she shouldn't be too bad she's only been in there a few weeks and I feed her on a big piece of slate which I clean everyday. Thanks


I was just concerned that the topsoil alone would be to damp for her?


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## Yvonne G (Sep 3, 2016)

Personally, I don't use sand at all, but I really respect HermanniChris, and he advises a mixture of sand and top soil. Substrate is a personal thing - what works for you. First you try to figure out what the tortoise needs, then you provide that any way you can. I just looked up Afghanistan to try to see if I could figure out the type of soil there, but the site I found was too varied for what I wanted. (Your tortoise comes from Afghanistan). This is the site:

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/afghanistan-i-geography

I like the small grade orchid bark. For babies that like to burrow, I mix in potting soil with the orchid bark. But everyone has their own way to achieve the results they want. There is no one-size-fits-all.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Sep 3, 2016)

Mark Cassell said:


> Oh dear why do all these websites tell you to put them in sandy conditions like there natural habitat?


Good question.
Old and outdated information. 
I live in a country where Testudo (Greeks, not Russians, but they are similar in many respects) live in the wild and mostly in areas where there is little or no sand in the soil. Some live in areas with more sand, near the coasts or in the south, but not in the Sahara itself. They tend to graze at a level above the ground where the plants leaves and flowers are found, but because we place food on the substrate, or on a tile or plate they are more likely to eat their substrate, in my opinion. There is no grass cover to the 'soil' in an indoor enclosure.


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 3, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> To help the substrate to be a little firmer, pat it down with the palm of your hand.
> 
> I like to have it MOIST underneath, but not too wet on top. To achieve this, when it starts to dry out, I pour water down into a corner so it flows under, not on top.



She cannot right herself period, she will die, you must turn her over. She's a tortoise, not a box turtle. Tortoises mostly cannot turn back over and they die.


Mark Cassell said:


> Thanks that's great, I added more sand but it wasn't firm enough. She couldn't get a foothold when she was on her back trying to self right herself. So now I've added more soil and it's probably 50\50. Should I wet it up quite often?


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> She cannot right herself period, she will die, you must turn her over. She's a tortoise, not a box turtle. Tortoises mostly cannot turn back over and they die.


She's good at it. All healthy horsfield tortoises should be able to self right unless they are unwell.


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 3, 2016)

Mark Cassell said:


> She's good at it. All healthy horsfield tortoises should be able to self right unless they are unwell.



Oh, OK in my 20 years or so experience, I didn't know that, and have never seen it. good for it.


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> Oh, OK in my 20 years or so experience, I didn't know that, and have never seen it. good for it.


You learn something new everyday, as they say


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## Yvonne G (Sep 3, 2016)

Maggie - please go take a chill pill.

Russian tortoises are very good at righting themselves.


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> Maggie - please go take a chill pill.
> 
> Russian tortoises are very good at righting themselves.


This is the problem, everyone is an expert! Including myself but there are so many different ways of doing things. Poor torts


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## wellington (Sep 3, 2016)

Mark Cassell said:


> This is the problem, everyone is an expert! Including myself but there are so many different ways of doing things. Poor torts


That's very true. However, back when I was a first timer, I learned fairly quickly that this forum has done its home work and has real experience. They raised tortoise old school. They learned through the years and found the newer ways work better. A lot of other sites, breeders, veteranarians are still stuck on old school. Be willing to learn the new better way. The things most of us won't use is because someone or some bodies have had experience with it causing problems.


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 3, 2016)

I don't need to go take a chill pill, I made ONE bad post that was deleted, and a threat to be banned, so what I told Mark is the truth. I told you I understood, and then after that there was a threat to ban me. After I said I understood. You want to kick me off for ONE bad post????? See Mark, at least you now know what I have told you is the truth, and some moderators want me off here really bad. I am almost at the point where, I'm simply not going to give advice. I'll just go to the chat and talk nonsense as everyone else does. When I am wrong I generally admit it, but don't threaten to ban me after I have told you I understand.
I'd apologize to everyone, but my comments about Mark were deleted, so I don't feel that an apology is appropriate. But I don't stay where I'm not wanted adios


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## Tidgy's Dad (Sep 3, 2016)

I don't like heat mats much either.
i don't like the idea of 'basking from beneath'.
I've never used one but worry about tortoises (especially Russians!) digging down into it.
I understand it can be put under the liner or under the enclosure or even on the wall
But I also think it would dry out the substrate unnecessarily and add to the problems of keeping up the humidity.
As someone said, Testudo tortoises can tolerate considerable drops in night time temperature and a natural drop is to be encouraged.
It depends how cold it gets at night in your climate and whether or not you are going to hibernate the tortoise in the future.


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## RosemaryDW (Sep 3, 2016)

Mark Cassell said:


> Hi it's long leaf plantain


Neat, thanks!


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

No worries, they are everywhere in England


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> I don't like heat mats much either.
> i don't like the idea of 'basking from beneath'.
> I've never used one but worry about tortoises (especially Russians!) digging down into it.
> I understand it can be put under the liner or under the enclosure or even on the wall
> ...


The mat is underneath the table, just in case, it's not on. Only when I was trying to dry the soil out because I don't know weather to have it wet or not.


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 3, 2016)

OK, it looks like I am really in trouble this time. So I will make a sincere apology to the forum as a whole, I don't want to be banned, I love the forum, and I realize because I am too frank or blunt at times several of the moderators want me gone. Sometimes people like Mark say something that sets me off and I say things that are not appropriate for this forum. For that I am genuinely sorry. I was wrong, I am not trying to say what I said was alright, it may have actually been correct, but sometimes I just need to keep those thoughts in my head.
So Mark, I really hope you get the information it seems like you are having trouble with, and I will leave this thread with good thoughts that Marks little guy lives a long and comfortable life. Bye


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## Tidgy's Dad (Sep 3, 2016)

Mark Cassell said:


> The mat is underneath the table, just in case, it's not on. Only when I was trying to dry the soil out because I don't know weather to have it wet or not.


Moist and warm. 
Not wet and cold or dry.


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## cmacusa3 (Sep 3, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> OK, it looks like I am really in trouble this time. So I will make a sincere apology to the forum as a whole, I don't want to be banned, I love the forum, and I realize because I am too frank or blunt at times several of the moderators want me gone. Sometimes people like Mark say something that sets me off and I say things that are not appropriate for this forum. For that I am genuinely sorry. I was wrong, I am not trying to say what I said was alright, it may have actually been correct, but sometimes I just need to keep those thoughts in my head.
> So Mark, I really hope you get the information it seems like you are having trouble with, and I will leave this thread with good thoughts that Marks little guy lives a long and comfortable life. Bye



Maggie don't worry about it, I don't know what happened here or care but sometimes I feel situations need frank and blunt comments. I've seen many times lately that members give advice that have no clue about things, ask for pictures to be posted so they can help but won't post their own enclosure pics, tell people not to use glass but have never used glass.etc... If knowledgeable people like yourself leave this forum in the hands of unexperienced keepers that just want to chat, then we will see a lot more dead torts.


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## Speedy-1 (Sep 3, 2016)

*Hi and welcome .*


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

Hi thanks.


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## cmacusa3 (Sep 3, 2016)

Mark Cassell said:


> Sorry I've read so many different websites saying don't use glass sides because it stresses them out and to use a 70/30% mix soil, sand. I didn't mean to offend anyone, I totally agree with you!


Do those sites say it stresses fish and lizards too?


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

No it doesn't mention that


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

Abramsmytankturtle said:


> Maggie don't worry about it, I don't know what happened here or care but sometimes I feel situations need frank and blunt comments. I've seen many times lately that members give advice that have no clue about things, ask for pictures to be posted so they can help but won't post their own enclosure pics, tell people not to use glass but have never used glass.etc... If knowledgeable people like yourself leave this forum in the hands of unexperienced keepers that just want to chat, then we will see a lot more dead torts.


She's didn't seem to bothered about the glass when she was in the vivarium, I took the glass out when I read up on them.


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## cmacusa3 (Sep 3, 2016)

Mark Cassell said:


> No it doesn't mention that



So don't you think if would stress a tort it would also stress them? I'm not saying it doesn't stress some, but I've raised a lot of different animals/reptiles in aquariums and never had issues. Sometimes People blame stress but it's usually them housing a larger tort in a small glass enclosure. Hopefully you will trust the care sheets on this website. I will tell you that these are written by some of the best in the world and they are proven experts in this field with the best updated info.


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 3, 2016)

Abramsmytankturtle said:


> So don't you think if would stress a tort it would also stress them? I'm not saying it doesn't stress some, but I've raised a lot of different animals/reptiles in aquariums and never had issues. Sometimes People blame stress but it's usually them housing a larger tort in a small glass enclosure. Hopefully you will trust the care sheets on this website. I will tell you that these are written by some of the best in the world and they are proven experts in this field with the best updated info.


I will do, thanks


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## Tom (Sep 3, 2016)

Hello and welcome Mark. I read through your thread and it sounds like you are getting a whirlwind of new info and good advice here. I don't think I need to repeat any of it, but may I share that I have been keep a wide variety of Chelonia, including horsfield tortoises in glass tanks, and every other type of enclosure too, since 1979. I breed tortoises and I have raised literally hundreds of baby tortoises, most of them started in glass tanks. I think I might have passed the 1000 baby mark this last year, but I really haven't been counting. I'm sitting on nearly 100 South African leopard eggs right now, and those babies have glass tanks waiting for them too. Glass tanks are actually better for babies _because _of all the reasons "they" say they are bad.

I make the recommendations I make in those care sheets that were linked to you because I have decades of experience and mistakes to help me discern what works best and what doesn't. I've read all the same books and material as everyone else, but so many of the assertions that are made in those old care sheets and books just didn't add up. I had to figure out a lot of this on my own, the hard way, and my animals suffered the consequences for my lack of knowledge and ignorance. I give advice and make those care sheets now in the hope that people like you will not have to make all the mistakes I made in the past. If you do what I have done, you will learn what I have learned. I'm offering a short cut that will save you and your tortoise a lot of time money and suffering.

May I ask what is your approximate age, and what is your experience level with tortoises? When dispensing requested advice, it helps to know who is asking. I might phrase things differently for a 12 year old with their first tortoise, than I would for a 50 year old that has been keeping tortoises longer than I have.

I can see that you are open minded and giving us a chance to explain, so may I request that you go back and read through those threads that Tidgy's dad linked for you one more time. Given what you've learned today, you might find the info more useful now.

Glad you found us and thanks for listening. Please feel free to ask lots of questions and make me clarify any details in those care sheets.


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 4, 2016)

Tom said:


> Hello and welcome Mark. I read through your thread and it sounds like you are getting a whirlwind of new info and good advice here. I don't think I need to repeat any of it, but may I share that I have been keep a wide variety of Chelonia, including horsfield tortoises in glass tanks, and every other type of enclosure too, since 1979. I breed tortoises and I have raised literally hundreds of baby tortoises, most of them started in glass tanks. I think I might have passed the 1000 baby mark this last year, but I really haven't been counting. I'm sitting on nearly 100 South African leopard eggs right now, and those babies have glass tanks waiting for them too. Glass tanks are actually better for babies _because _of all the reasons "they" say they are bad.
> 
> I make the recommendations I make in those care sheets that were linked to you because I have decades of experience and mistakes to help me discern what works best and what doesn't. I've read all the same books and material as everyone else, but so many of the assertions that are made in those old care sheets and books just didn't add up. I had to figure out a lot of this on my own, the hard way, and my animals suffered the consequences for my lack of knowledge and ignorance. I give advice and make those care sheets now in the hope that people like you will not have to make all the mistakes I made in the past. If you do what I have done, you will learn what I have learned. I'm offering a short cut that will save you and your tortoise a lot of time money and suffering.
> 
> ...


Hi thanks I've read the threads and taken on board what you say, I've added a bucket full more topsoil and mixed it in. I'm also going to buy the Chippings. I'm a little worried that it's too humid, at soil level in her hide it's beyond 90% humidity! Is that too much.?


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 4, 2016)




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## Mark Cassell (Sep 4, 2016)




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## Tidgy's Dad (Sep 4, 2016)

50 to 70% is the recommended humidity.


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## Tom (Sep 4, 2016)

Mark Cassell said:


> I'm also going to buy the Chippings. I'm a little worried that it's too humid, at soil level in her hide it's beyond 90% humidity! Is that too much.?



Wood chippings will tend to mold and mildew in a damp setting. I wouldn't use that.

90% humidity inside the hide is good. If the tortoise wants to be in drier environment, it can step out of the hide and into the open table area.

I don't know how it works in other countries, but here in the US, "soil" that is bought in a bag at a store is made by composting people's yard waste. Grass clippings, leaves, and tree and bush trimmings. Over here a lot of people treat their lawns with all sorts of chemicals and the shelves are lined with all sorts of hot-selling chemicals to be sprayed all over the garden. Couple that with the fact that lots of people grow and subsequently trim toxic plants like oleander, azaleas, etc… and store bought "soil" becomes potentially dangerous. In addition to all that, most of it gets really messy and turns to mud once water is added. Suffice to say, I think other things are safer and better for our tortoises. I prefer coco coir for small horsfield tortoises and fine grade orchid bark for larger ones. These two items can be found cheaply and in bulk over here at garden stores.


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## jim taylor (Sep 4, 2016)

I'm


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 4, 2016)

Tom said:


> Wood chippings will tend to mold and mildew in a damp setting. I wouldn't use that.
> 
> 90% humidity inside the hide is good. If the tortoise wants to be in drier environment, it can step out of the hide and into the open table area.
> 
> I don't know how it works in other countries, but here in the US, "soil" that is bought in a bag at a store is made by composting people's yard waste. Grass clippings, leaves, and tree and bush trimmings. Over here a lot of people treat their lawns with all sorts of chemicals and the shelves are lined with all sorts of hot-selling chemicals to be sprayed all over the garden. Couple that with the fact that lots of people grow and subsequently trim toxic plants like oleander, azaleas, etc… and store bought "soil" becomes potentially dangerous. In addition to all that, most of it gets really messy and turns to mud once water is added. Suffice to say, I think other things are safer and better for our tortoises. I prefer coco coir for small horsfield tortoises and fine grade orchid bark for larger ones. These two items can be found cheaply and in bulk over here at garden stores.




something like this?


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## Tom (Sep 4, 2016)

Mark Cassell said:


> something like this?



Those all look like the right stuff, but double check the ingredients to be sure there are no additives that might be good for plants, but not so good for a tortoise.


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 4, 2016)

Tom said:


> Those all look like the right stuff, but double check the ingredients to be sure there are no additives that might be good for plants, but not so good for a tortoise.


Will do, thanks.


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## Ozzy1 (Sep 4, 2016)

Hi Mark and welcome, am also new to the world of tortoise's . I'm from Belfast and just like you don't get the good weather / outside heat like most. I keep mine in soil only, I noticed if I used play sand as a mix the he was wheezing, my vet said just to us the top soil and see how he gets on. No more wheezing now. But to tell you the truth, anytime he sees me he goes mad to get out of his enclosure, and spend most of his time having the run of the house when am here. I know a lot of or everyone would disagree or object to it but he's healthy, eats like a trooper, poops well, bright eyed, wheel spends everywhere and he is full of beans, and it been that way for 8 year's. No issue's. I hunted the internet, bought 10 books on them joined this sit, but info I got was different every time. Just do your best and see what works and what doesn't. I work on getting good portions wright with good variety of different foods, weighing him weekly, and keeping an eye on is stools, activity levels, abnormal breathing, and bright eyes and healthy mouth. And that works for me.


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## Pearly (Sep 4, 2016)

Hello Mark and welcome from Texas, USA. I keep the Redfooted. Got them as tiny hatchlings 14 months ago and after initial struggles with different open top enclosures I finally gave in and got 40 gal breeder tank and this has been the BEST thing for those babies. I keep bio-substrate and love the tidy look so I cover the top of it with sheet moss, the kind you scoop off the surface where it grows in large sheets or clumps and just lay it on the substrate. My babies seem very happy marching of sort moss, they can also dig under if the want

the other plants are just weeds from the garden where I never use chemicals

i just love this stuff! So fluffy!

this is what my babies mostly walk on



















Like mentioned above I've only been doing this since June'15 plus and don't presume to be offering advice on tortoise keeping but thought I'd share with you what has worked for me and put some pictures for you to see what I'm talking about. The beauty of this forum is that you get all kinds of ideas and can pick and choose what works for you and your pet. I love your enclosure military theme by the way


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 4, 2016)

jim taylor said:


> I'm



yes???


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## Tom (Sep 4, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> yes???



I hope he wasn't typing while driving...


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## jim taylor (Sep 4, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> yes???[/.



Sorry kids hijacked my phone. Probably my littlest she's 3 and just hits buttons till she finds YouTube. I have two girls 6 and 3 both and are tort lovers already im sure they will be members one day. Every time they see me on the forum they ask me what tortoise I'm looking at. They where so excited when we went to pick up speedy it was the longest hr drive of my life where's the turtle dad, r we still getting the turtle dad, why does it take so long to get a turtle dad, but they r just like their dad animal lovers from the start.


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 4, 2016)

Having raised 2 boys , I am laughing and having sympathy at the same time. 
Here show them Bob, 17 yrs old 125 lbs...
Sorry Mark, didn't mean to hijack your thread. No more


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 7, 2016)

Ozzy1 said:


> Hi Mark and welcome, am also new to the world of tortoise's . I'm from Belfast and just like you don't get the good weather / outside heat like most. I keep mine in soil only, I noticed if I used play sand as a mix the he was wheezing, my vet said just to us the top soil and see how he gets on. No more wheezing now. But to tell you the truth, anytime he sees me he goes mad to get out of his enclosure, and spend most of his time having the run of the house when am here. I know a lot of or everyone would disagree or object to it but he's healthy, eats like a trooper, poops well, bright eyed, wheel spends everywhere and he is full of beans, and it been that way for 8 year's. No issue's. I hunted the internet, bought 10 books on them joined this sit, but info I got was different every time. Just do your best and see what works and what doesn't. I work on getting good portions wright with good variety of different foods, weighing him weekly, and keeping an eye on is stools, activity levels, abnormal breathing, and bright eyes and healthy mouth. And that works for me.


Thanks! What breed of tortoise do you have? And what are you looking for in the stools? They are firm and dark brown.


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## JoesMum (Sep 7, 2016)

Mark Cassell said:


> Thanks! What breed of tortoise do you have? And what are you looking for in the stools? They are firm and dark brown.


That sounds fine. To be honest, you're looking out for them... keeping an eye open for worms (which would need treating) ... and they should be firm. However, exact texture and colour varies with diet. 

There is a huge amount of information out on the internet and in books. Much of it is outdated... and this outdated info is frequently spread by pet shops and, sadly, some breeders and vets too. 

On TFO we have the most up to date information written by species experts, so please do rely on the TFO care sheet for your Horsfield and on the members most experienced in your species.


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 7, 2016)

Pearly said:


> Hello Mark and welcome from Texas, USA. I keep the Redfooted. Got them as tiny hatchlings 14 months ago and after initial struggles with different open top enclosures I finally gave in and got 40 gal breeder tank and this has been the BEST thing for those babies. I keep bio-substrate and love the tidy look so I cover the top of it with sheet moss, the kind you scoop off the surface where it grows in large sheets or clumps and just lay it on the substrate. My babies seem very happy marching of sort moss, they can also dig under if the want
> View attachment 185786
> the other plants are just weeds from the garden where I never use chemicals
> View attachment 185787
> ...


Awsome! Your enclosure just looks like an actual jungle. Thanks for the advice I'm really struggling at the moment with what to feed her, I look everywhere for different weeds, flowers, everything but just can't tell what's what! and have tried growing my own. Your guys look really happy


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 7, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> Having raised 2 boys , I am laughing and having sympathy at the same time.
> Here show them Bob, 17 yrs old 125 lbs...
> Sorry Mark, didn't mean to hijack your thread. No more
> View attachment 185813


He's amazing


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 7, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> That sounds fine. To be honest, you're looking out for them... keeping an eye open for worms (which would need treating) ... and they should be firm. However, exact texture and colour varies with diet.
> 
> There is a huge amount of information out on the internet and in books. Much of it is outdated... and this outdated info is frequently spread by pet shops and, sadly, some breeders and vets too.
> 
> On TFO we have the most up to date information written by species experts, so please do rely on the TFO care sheet for your Horsfield and on the members most experienced in your species.


I look for them everyday, just to make sure as I know you can tell a lot from the stools


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 7, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> That sounds fine. To be honest, you're looking out for them... keeping an eye open for worms (which would need treating) ... and they should be firm. However, exact texture and colour varies with diet.
> 
> There is a huge amount of information out on the internet and in books. Much of it is outdated... and this outdated info is frequently spread by pet shops and, sadly, some breeders and vets too.
> 
> On TFO we have the most up to date information written by species experts, so please do rely on the TFO care sheet for your Horsfield and on the members most experienced in your species.


Soooooo many different information.


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 7, 2016)

Can anyone help me with food? I've practicly studied the tortoise table website! All the weeds, flowers, cactus, etc. I look everywhere when I'm on the road, different places I go for work as I work all over the UK ,i go walking looking in people's gardens down the woods and can only ever find the same things. Plantain leafs are her daily favourite mainly because it's everywhere, then there's dandelion leafs she loves the flowers but they are scarce this time of year, I give her clover, daisys when they flower, the odd thistle which she doesn't really like. 
I'm worried I'm not giving her enough of a varied diet. 
Please help. Thanks Mark.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Sep 7, 2016)

I like this for ideas, particularly the ones in bold print. 
http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/nutrientanalysis.htm
Daisy's are not good, though one or two won't hurt.


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## Mark Cassell (Sep 7, 2016)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> I like this for ideas, particularly the ones in bold print.
> http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/nutrientanalysis.htm
> Daisy's are not good, though one or two won't hurt.


Not daisys sorry, I meant pansys, never fed her daisys.


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 7, 2016)

Mark Cassell said:


> Can anyone help me with food? I've practicly studied the tortoise table website! All the weeds, flowers, cactus, etc. I look everywhere when I'm on the road, different places I go for work as I work all over the UK ,i go walking looking in people's gardens down the woods and can only ever find the same things. Plantain leafs are her daily favourite mainly because it's everywhere, then there's dandelion leafs she loves the flowers but they are scarce this time of year, I give her clover, daisys when they flower, the odd thistle which she doesn't really like.
> I'm worried I'm not giving her enough of a varied diet.
> Please help. Thanks Mark.



Dandelion leaves are good for her my Sulcata love them even the baby. Do you think if I sent you a box with socks and (she says grinning) and started /starter cactus for Meatball, it would cost a fortune? Send me a PM if you are interested. Can you get escarole and endive, radicchio? Kale too, good stuff to fall back on while you figure out how to do it all. Don't you have something called Rocket there? I understand that's good for them too. Super moderator will correct me if I'm wrong.

Mark, Here too, on TFO you will get a bit of different info. But we have more experts, Veterinarians, and expert breeders, authors, and a bunch of well experienced keepers, if you ever get 'bad' information from someone here on the forum, someone or a group will correct them. So please trust most of us. Take what you need and leave the rest. I live in the PacificNorthWest where people don't tan they rust. It rains here for 7 months interspersed with ice and snow, so I personally raise my desert type tortoises different than is suggested. Mostly I have been successful in the part 'I' had control over. I asked for advice when I first moved here, took what I needed and left the rest and I have raised a few good tortoises and one great one. I also keep box turtles. Most of my animals are special needs. Missing jaws, blind, 3 legged.
Anyway, that's my feeding advice for you. Not much help I guess.


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## JoesMum (Sep 7, 2016)

Mark, 

Variety is variety over time and not variety every day or even within the same week. 

You are not seeking to serve a dozen different things every meal. 

Tortoises are opportunistic feeders. In the wild they'd eat what was in season and readily available. If they came across something good they'd probably eat it to the ground and then move on to find something else which might be another of the same plant. 

So, when it comes to weeds and plants you use the ones you can get. As the winter draws in, many of us use a pellet supplement like komodo (you can't get mazuri in the UK) to tide us through a season when picking outside becomes very difficult and we are relying on supermarket greens.


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## JoesMum (Sep 7, 2016)

Here's a list of suitable greens

Look them up on The Tortoise Table Plant Database if you're not sure what they look like. 
http://thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plant_database_14.asp

Mulberry leaves
Grape vine leaves
Hibiscus leaves
African hibiscus leaves
Blue hibiscus leaves
Rose of Sharon leaves
Rose leaves
Geraniums
Gazanias
Lavatera
Pansies
Petunias
Hostas
Honeysuckle
Cape honeysuckle
Leaves and blooms from any squash plant, like pumpkin, cucumber, summer squash, etc...
Young spineless opuntia cactus pads

Weeds:
There are soooooooo many...
Dandelion
Mallow
Filaree
Smooth Sow thistle
Prickly Sow thistle
Milk thistle
Goat head weed
Cats ear
Nettles
Trefoil
Wild onion
Wild mustard
Wild Garlic
Clovers
Broadleaf plantain
Narrow leaf plantain
Chick weed
Hawksbit
Hensbit
Hawksbeard


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 7, 2016)

Rose of Sharon, it might do well in your climate.....


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## RosemaryDW (Sep 8, 2016)

I don't know how often you get them where you are but nasturtiums are really easy to grow in a (relatively) sunny spot. They reseed and naturalize so here we often see them in damp spots growing wild. They are easy to identify with round leaves, bright red, orange, or yellow flowers. The entire plant is safe to feed and is one of my girl's favorites. We get them more in our wet season and in a bit of shade here, Southern California being a relatively dry and sunny area.

Keep feeding her the thistles. What she doesn't like today, she may nibble and love eventually!


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## JoesMum (Sep 8, 2016)

RosemaryDW said:


> I don't know how often you get them where you are but nasturtiums are really easy to grow in a (relatively) sunny spot. They reseed and naturalize so here we often see them in damp spots growing wild. They are easy to identify with round leaves, bright red, orange, or yellow flowers. The entire plant is safe to feed and is one of my girl's favorites. We get them more in our wet season and in a bit of shade here, Southern California being a relatively dry and sunny area.
> 
> Keep feeding her the thistles. What she doesn't like today, she may nibble and love eventually!
> 
> View attachment 186233


Nasturtiums are easy to grow in the UK too  However, they are seasonal but you could have some in pots on a windowsill indoors.


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## RIO'S MOM (Sep 9, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> OK, it looks like I am really in trouble this time. So I will make a sincere apology to the forum as a whole, I don't want to be banned, I love the forum, and I realize because I am too frank or blunt at times several of the moderators want me gone. Sometimes people like Mark say something that sets me off and I say things that are not appropriate for this forum. For that I am genuinely sorry. I was wrong, I am not trying to say what I said was alright, it may have actually been correct, but sometimes I just need to keep those thoughts in my head.
> So Mark, I really hope you get the information it seems like you are having trouble with, and I will leave this thread with good thoughts that Marks little guy lives a long and comfortable life. Bye


Maggie3fan, I could use your input on my post ...
Closed "Chambers"


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## Katy1986 (Sep 10, 2016)

Thanks for the link it's an interesting read. I've tried a variety of things too. Turns out Toby does not like spinach and watercress, or rather they do not agree with him! He wasn't too bother by dandelions but then my local patch had been cut so they must have dried out quickly. I bought a bag of mixed dried flowers which tortoises are meant to love as a treat but he was t interested. He likes strawberries but I know how sugary they are so he only gets 1 as a treat every few weeks. Looking forward to trying more things with him, but he still loves the pellets his breeder had him on too.


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## JoesMum (Sep 10, 2016)

Katy1986 said:


> Thanks for the link it's an interesting read. I've tried a variety of things too. Turns out Toby does not like spinach and watercress, or rather they do not agree with him! He wasn't too bother by dandelions but then my local patch had been cut so they must have dried out quickly. I bought a bag of mixed dried flowers which tortoises are meant to love as a treat but he was t interested. He likes strawberries but I know how sugary they are so he only gets 1 as a treat every few weeks. Looking forward to trying more things with him, but he still loves the pellets his breeder had him on too.


Torts can be very picky eaters. They know what they like and they stubbornly refuse everything else.

Sometimes you have to be a tough parent and point out that this is dinner and if you don't eat it you go without. 

Many of us have had to deal with a tort on hunger strike. They will eat when they're hungry and come to no harm during the period of refusal - which can be lengthy. As long as they're soaked every day no harm will be done. 

It's stressful for the human involved, but you have to be tough and ... come here for support


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 10, 2016)

Good Lord, I'm not sure why you would want my input on an enclosure. I don't do somethings like other people. And I would believe your Redfoot is too old to need a 'closed chamber". I don't keep redfoots and I'm a Sulcata and Gopherus agassizzi person, immensely different care from Redfoots. You guy is old enough to spend as much time outside as possible. IMHO, he should be in an atmosphere of forest floor. Humid lots of water, darker. I really feel the best thing I can do is turn you over to @Pearly. She keeps Redfoots in a habitat that will surprize and amaze you. now, she does not have years of experience, but she caught on quick, and I reccommend her and she will be better for you than me. I appreciate you asking me, but I think because I don't keep Redfoots, that someone who does would be my best answer for you. My sis also keeps Redfoots and I would expect her to put in her 4 cents, but I really do think that Pearly has learned so much she needs to share it. Thank you tho, really.


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## Pearly (Sep 10, 2016)

Mark Cassell said:


> Awsome! Your enclosure just looks like an actual jungle. Thanks for the advice I'm really struggling at the moment with what to feed her, I look everywhere for different weeds, flowers, everything but just can't tell what's what! and have tried growing my own. Your guys look really happy


I totally sympathise with you on feeding. That and proper enclosure were a bain of my existence for 2-3 months of OCD research, scouring this forum threads and other sources and MANY MANY trips to pet stores and home improvement centers, until I finally got it. And so will you. Information is a key, and this is the best place to find a good uptodate info. The bottomline: whatever you end up doing, has to be easy to maintain for you. As for diet, I can't really speak for the herbivorous species, just pretty well mastered mine (omnivore) but there is a diet section here and I'd also look at the care sheets for recommended foods list for your species, and /or call on Russian keepers who live in your area and see where they find good things for their torts to eat. You can start a thread alerting russian keepers in your specific area and start exchanging ideas. It does get easier, you know


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## JoesMum (Sep 10, 2016)

Yvonne posts this list -

Here's a list of suitable greens

Look them up on The Tortoise Table Plant Database if you're not sure what they look like. 
http://thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plant_database_14.asp

Mulberry leaves
Grape vine leaves
Hibiscus leaves
African hibiscus leaves
Blue hibiscus leaves
Rose of Sharon leaves
Rose leaves
Geraniums
Gazanias
Lavatera
Pansies
Petunias
Hostas
Honeysuckle
Cape honeysuckle
Leaves and blooms from any squash plant, like pumpkin, cucumber, summer squash, etc...
Young spineless opuntia cactus pads

Weeds:
There are soooooooo many...
Dandelion
Mallow
Filaree
Smooth Sow thistle
Prickly Sow thistle
Milk thistle
Goat head weed
Cats ear
Nettles
Trefoil
Wild onion
Wild mustard
Wild Garlic
Clovers
Broadleaf plantain
Narrow leaf plantain
Chick weed
Hawksbit
Hensbit
Hawksbeard


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## Pearly (Sep 10, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> Good Lord, I'm not sure why you would want my input on an enclosure. I don't do somethings like other people. And I would believe your Redfoot is too old to need a 'closed chamber". I don't keep redfoots and I'm a Sulcata and Gopherus agassizzi person, immensely different care from Redfoots. You guy is old enough to spend as much time outside as possible. IMHO, he should be in an atmosphere of forest floor. Humid lots of water, darker. I really feel the best thing I can do is turn you over to @Pearly. She keeps Redfoots in a habitat that will surprize and amaze you. now, she does not have years of experience, but she caught on quick, and I reccommend her and she will be better for you than me. I appreciate you asking me, but I think because I don't keep Redfoots, that someone who does would be my best answer for you. My sis also keeps Redfoots and I would expect her to put in her 4 cents, but I really do think that Pearly has learned so much she needs to share it. Thank you tho, really.


Miss Maggie, you're making me blush! Keeper like you recommending my opinion is the ultimate compliment for the apprentice keeper like myself. But I've been learning from THE BEST on this forum so the time is spend here is to give back to this community for all that I have received. Thank you, Maggie.


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## Pearly (Sep 10, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> Yvonne posts this list -
> 
> Here's a list of suitable greens
> 
> ...


I have to admit that having my garden in Texas for 20 years you'd think I'd read that plant list and have eureka experience, but it wasn't that easy. I knew names of many ornamental plants and herbs, but weeds... I just never needed to learn about. All i needed to know was that they had to be pulled out of my garden beds. Then when you guys gave me the list of weeds, I started "googling" one by one, pictures and all. Getting that list of edible plants was just a beginning of my search for best plant foods. I still base majority of my babies diet on store bought greens (collards, endive, escarole, mustard and turnip greens, radicchio) and cactus plus any tropical fruit there is in season for the topping of each salad to entice my picky eater to get in with it. There just aren't that many safe weeds in my area, due to potential pesticide use. I started few weeds (chickory, lambs quarters, and grape vines and hardy hibiscus (that I have found in old herb nursery where old hippies running it don't use any chemicals) in my tortoise garden along with bunch if other edible plants for shade and grazing, but untill they are mature enough for harvesting I feel totally ok with feeding store bought food. The variety I use is huge, so I feel pretty good about it. I wish i could get plantains here! But I don't ever see them grow anywhere in my area! And herb nurseries don't sell it. Bummer!!!


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 10, 2016)

Pearly said:


> Miss Maggie, you're making me blush! Keeper like you recommending my opinion is the ultimate compliment for the apprentice keeper like myself. But I've been learning from THE BEST on this forum so the time is spend here is to give back to this community for all that I have received. Thank you, Maggie.




@Pearly But you goofed, , I wanted you to give information to Rio's Mom on an enclosure for a Redfoot, madame enclosure expert!!! With pictures!


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 10, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> @Pearly But you goofed, , I wanted you to give information to Rio's Mom on an enclosure for a Redfoot, madame enclosure expert!!! With pictures!


 And, I'm actually a lousy keeper, since Bob, but thanks for the compliment


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## Yvonne G (Sep 10, 2016)

Let's all please don't forget that this is Mark's thread about his new tortoise table. NOT Rio's mom's thread!


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 10, 2016)

Chill out, Rio's Mom is a different thread, and don't make angry faces at me, a simple comment would suffice.  I got confused, sorry Mark.....really


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## Pearly (Sep 11, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> Let's all please don't forget that this is Mark's thread about his new tortoise table. NOT Rio's mom's thread!





maggie3fan said:


> Chill out, Rio's Mom is a different thread, and don't make angry faces at me, a simple comment would suffice.  I got confused, sorry Mark.....really


I have ALWAYS wanted to have a sister! But had to be happy with just one brother. You ladies are so lucky to have each other. And Mark, sorry for getting off topic


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## Pearly (Sep 11, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> @Pearly But you goofed, , I wanted you to give information to Rio's Mom on an enclosure for a Redfoot, madame enclosure expert!!! With pictures!


Yeah, I have to find that thread now and see where I have messed up


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## Pearly (Sep 11, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> And, I'm actually a lousy keeper, since Bob, but thanks for the compliment


You are not a "lousy keeper"! You taught me something I'd never have thought myself: "to cradle, carry around, keep warm and love on baby torts" or any reptiles. To me that was like a major "eureka moment"! I've been doing this with my babies and seriously believe that this is what has saved little Tucker. I think he would have been one of those "failed hatchlings" type of casualty that we so often read about on here. I just never had anything to do with any reptiles and have never considered them "huggable" ... I do now, thanks to you
And again, apologies to Mark for going off on bunny trail here


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