# Russian hybrids?



## satdiver (Feb 21, 2022)

Has anyone ever crossbred a Russian tortoise with another mediterranean species ?


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## Yvonne G (Feb 21, 2022)

Interesting question. I ran a turtle rescue for around fifty years, and I've never seen any Mediterranean hybrids.


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## Thomas tortoise (Feb 21, 2022)

satdiver said:


> Has anyone ever crossbred a Russian tortoise with another mediterranean species ?


I was wondering about that too! But only with sulcatas and leopards cause they are both big.( I know the sulcata will get bigger) but I think a leopard and a sully would look so beautiful if they could be breeded. Do you know if you can Inter breed these @Tom ?


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## OkAdiza (Feb 21, 2022)

Thomas tortoise said:


> I was wondering about that too! But only with sulcatas and leopards cause they are both big.( I know the sulcata will get bigger) but I think a leopard and a sully would look so beautiful if they could be breeded. Do you know if you can Inter breed these @Tom ?


See post #6: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/leopacata.106662/


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## Lyn W (Feb 21, 2022)

I don't know why anyone would want to.


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## wellington (Feb 21, 2022)

WHY? Why do people insist on wanting to mix species, ugh!!!


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## Thomas tortoise (Feb 21, 2022)

wellington said:


> WHY? Why do people insist on wanting to mix species, ugh!!!


Whats wrong with it?


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## wellington (Feb 21, 2022)

Thomas tortoise said:


> Whats wrong with it?


What is good about it?
Why not leave species be what they are? Enough with the mutts already. Why do humans have to ruin everything!


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## Thomas tortoise (Feb 21, 2022)

wellington said:


> What is good about it?
> Why not leave species be what they are? Enough with the mutts already. Why do humans have to ruin everything!


 Hybrids are cute you said it yourself! And you have a chance to change history why not have hybrids?


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## Thomas tortoise (Feb 21, 2022)

If it hurts the tortoises then I get it and I won't like hybrids anymore but if it doesn't hurt the animal then why not?


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## wellington (Feb 21, 2022)

Thomas tortoise said:


> Hybrids are cute you said it yourself! And you have a chance to change history why not have hybrids?


I think every animal is cute. 
I think purposely screwing up species by crossing them is human ignorance and destruction!


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## Thomas tortoise (Feb 21, 2022)

Its not destruction cause the original species will still exist!


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## mark1 (Feb 21, 2022)

Thomas tortoise said:


> Its not destruction cause the original species will still exist!



it is destructive to the hobby ....... cuora are really expensive , they are intentionally cross bred on chinese turtle farms for that reason ........ 


Detecting intraspecific hybrids in Testudo hermanni (Gmelin 1789)


*"The genetic pollution *_of natural populations of Testudo hermanni hermanni in Italy has been recorded by Frisenda & Ballasina (1990) for tortoises in Tuscany which resulted from cross-breeding with Balkan tortoises"_


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## Big Ron (Feb 21, 2022)

If you really cared for either of the animals you are wanting to do breeding experiments on why would you risk their health or the health of the babies if it worked and something went wrong what no big deal they were just tortoises,sounds like you hope to create a species just to make money


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## Big Ron (Feb 21, 2022)

wellington said:


> I think every animal is cute.
> I think purposely screwing up species by crossing them is human ignorance and destruction!


Absolutely


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## Thomas tortoise (Feb 23, 2022)

Big Ron said:


> If you really cared for either of the animals you are wanting to do breeding experiments on why would you risk their health or the health of the babies if it worked and something went wrong what no big deal they were just tortoises,sounds like you hope to create a species just to make money



Look I am not trying to be mean but the whole point of life is evolving and making money! Doing experiments is part of life how did people find out if sulcata tortoises should be kept in dry climates or humid? They did experiments and the one they kept in dry climates ended up very unhealthy and has a very pyramided shell. That is just one example out of millions! You all just sound like you want to do what's right and you think it is right not to breed them but you don't have any reason not to breed them! You say "oh its destruction!" Well its not! If you guys can come up with a few reasons to stop people form breeding leos and sullys then I will probably agree with you but none of you came up with adequate reasons.


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## Tom (Feb 23, 2022)

Thomas tortoise said:


> Look I am not trying to be mean but the whole point of life is evolving and making money! Doing experiments is part of life how did people find out if sulcata tortoises should be kept in dry climates or humid? They did experiments and the one they kept in dry climates ended up very unhealthy and has a very pyramided shell. That is just one example out of millions! You all just sound like you want to do what's right and you think it is right not to breed them but you don't have any reason not to breed them! You say "oh its destruction!" Well its not! If you guys can come up with a few reasons to stop people form breeding leos and sullys then I will probably agree with you but none of you came up with adequate reasons.


Here are three reasons. Any one of which is reason enough not to do this by itself. If you read the threads on this, you will see lots of reason to not hybridize.

My concern is not that hybrids will make it back to Africa and pollute the wild gene pool. My concern is that what we have here in the US is all we will ever have. Importation was banned almost 24 years ago (1998), and what we have in captivity right now is all we will ever have. If we fail to preserve it and start mixing species and genetics we will eventually lose what we've got. It is already happening with mixing different locales of leopards and RFs. Mixing entirely different species just muddies the waters exponentially.

Further issues with this:
1. Showing pictures like these encourages more of this, and these two species should never be mixed. Behaviorally they are very incompatible.
2. Mixing species should not be encouraged because of the very real increased disease potential.


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## Thomas tortoise (Feb 24, 2022)

Tom said:


> Here are three reasons. Any one of which is reason enough not to do this by itself. If you read the threads on this, you will see lots of reason to not hybridize.
> 
> My concern is not that hybrids will make it back to Africa and pollute the wild gene pool. My concern is that what we have here in the US is all we will ever have. Importation was banned almost 24 years ago (1998), and what we have in captivity right now is all we will ever have. If we fail to preserve it and start mixing species and genetics we will eventually lose what we've got. It is already happening with mixing different locales of leopards and RFs. Mixing entirely different species just muddies the waters exponentially.
> 
> ...



Okay. Thank you! Now I know. I'll drop it now. sorry


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## Tom (Feb 24, 2022)

Thomas tortoise said:


> Okay. Thank you! Now I know. I'll drop it now. sorry


You made a valid point in asking why. We should be able to articulate why we make the assertions we make. And when we do, you listen to it and then make your own judgement on the subject. That is as it should be. No apology necessary.


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## jsheffield (Feb 24, 2022)

When I saw the thread title, I thought the question might be about mixing Russian Tortoise sub-species....

Jamie


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## satdiver (Feb 24, 2022)

Wow, what a touch, sensitive group. Here is a very good video on hybrids from Kamp Kenan.


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## Tom (Feb 24, 2022)

satdiver said:


> Wow, what a touch, sensitive group. Here is a very good video on hybrids from Kamp Kenan.


No thank you. He's not a good source for tortoise care info. Videos like this just cement that fact.

Touch sensitive? What does that mean? If it means we don't condone or encourage practices that cause death and harm to tortoises, then I am guilty as charged.


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## TeamZissou (Feb 24, 2022)

jsheffield said:


> When I saw the thread title, I thought the question might be about mixing Russian Tortoise sub-species....
> 
> Jamie



Me too. The 4-5 subspecies of Russians seem hard to distinguish as it is based almost entirely on shell shape. My sense is that mixing Russian subspecies happens a lot.






Russian Subspecies


I finally got around to taking pictures :D The first is T.h.horsfieldii. They are domed and almost as wide as they are long. T.h.horsfieldii The next is T.h.rustamovi. They are domed, but long and narrow. T.h.rustamovi Danny[hr] Next is T.h.kazachstanica. They are flat and...




tortoiseforum.org





IMO species hybrids are messed up.


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## wellington (Feb 24, 2022)

satdiver said:


> Wow, what a touch, sensitive group. Here is a very good video on hybrids from Kamp Kenan.


Hack this guy is!


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## wellington (Feb 24, 2022)

Thomas tortoise said:


> Look I am not trying to be mean but the whole point of life is evolving and making money! Doing experiments is part of life how did people find out if sulcata tortoises should be kept in dry climates or humid? They did experiments and the one they kept in dry climates ended up very unhealthy and has a very pyramided shell. That is just one example out of millions! You all just sound like you want to do what's right and you think it is right not to breed them but you don't have any reason not to breed them! You say "oh its destruction!" Well its not! If you guys can come up with a few reasons to stop people form breeding leos and sullys then I will probably agree with you but none of you came up with adequate reasons.


Wow, money isn't everything! To put life and species saving/purity on the line for money is very sad state of mind. 
That's what called puppy mills/backyard breeders in the dog world, which is the worst of the worst scum!


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## Thomas tortoise (Feb 24, 2022)

wellington said:


> Wow, money isn't everything! To put life and species saving/purity on the line for money is very sad state of mind.
> That's what called puppy mills/backyard breeders in the dog world, which is the worst of the worst scum!



look again this may seem a little mean but please don't take it the wrong way...Leocatas is what leopards and sully hybrids is called and I think they look adorable so I decided to ask why we can't keep breeding them! I didn't ask for this argument! Just drop it already. I learned why we can't breed them so I already dropped it. So you should too.


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## Thomas tortoise (Feb 24, 2022)

satdiver said:


> Wow, what a touch, sensitive group. Here is a very good video on hybrids from Kamp Kenan.



I saw that a few days ago... Lamp kenen has pretty bad info.


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## ZEROPILOT (Feb 24, 2022)

satdiver said:


> Wow, what a touch, sensitive group. Here is a very good video on hybrids from Kamp Kenan.


Kenan does most everything in a way that is convenient for him.
A lot of it is just wrong for many reasons and it harms the hobby (Industry?)
The videos are entertaining. But they are far from educational


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## biochemnerd808 (Feb 25, 2022)

To go back to the original question: YES an RT 'can' produce viable babies with another Testudo species. In an UK group, someone has a Greek/RT mix that happened unintentionally (but why the breeder incubated the eggs, I don't know). It's cute. But in my opinion, wrong.

I know some Redfoot/leopard mixes exist here in the US, and the leopard/sulcata mixes mentioned above. And in Asia, I've seen mixes of everything under the sun (including radiata x sulcata, ploughshare x leopard, etc..... WHYYYY???!).

Should we do it? NO. That's a hard NO for me, because it is hard enough to maintain species integrity within our US tortoise populations as it is, so mixing in other species has the potential to bring the animals even further from the wild population we are trying to save.


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## Blackdog1714 (Feb 25, 2022)

Just imagine a tort the size of a sully with the attitude of a Russian.  it would wreck everything and ram anything!


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## Jacqui (Feb 25, 2022)

Okay, what were you thinking of mixing them with? What is the gain? Besides the money. Would you breed it to something prettier, flashier? Or what?


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## biochemnerd808 (Feb 25, 2022)

Blackdog1714 said:


> Just imagine a tort the size of a sully with the attitude of a Russian.  it would wreck everything and ram anything!


Uhm, sulcata already have the attitude if a Russian on steroids. They will ram or dig their way through drywall.


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## Blackdog1714 (Feb 25, 2022)

biochemnerd808 said:


> Uhm, sulcata already have the attitude if a Russian on steroids. They will ram or dig their way through drywall.


But do they climb like monkeys and ram you at every opportunity! I got my hands full with my little Russian


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## Thomas tortoise (Feb 25, 2022)

Blackdog1714 said:


> But do they climb like monkeys and ram you at every opportunity! I got my hands full with my little Russian



I know this was just a joke but may I point out. A Russian would be squashed if the sulcata tried breeding with it and the Russian would not be able to get on the sulcata. So technically that is impossible and a Russian sully hybrid would make the Russian a lot bigger so he would not be able to lift himself of the ground. But other than that you made me Lol!


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## mark1 (Feb 25, 2022)

satdiver said:


> Wow, what a touch, sensitive group. Here is a very good video on hybrids from Kamp Kenan.



hybrids , imo, are a scourge to the hobby ....it's not that uncommon for a hybrid to be fertile .......... how much do you think an albino leopard tortoise would be worth ???? or an albino redfoot ???? i have a fairly good understanding of the plasticity of genetics .... myself when i see some uncommon color morphs pop up i wonder where the genes came from .....i've recently seen an albino painted turtle , i then wonder if painted turtles and red eared sliders can be bred together ...i read an article called "the counterfeit golden coin turtle" another about 3 hybrid cuora that have turned up never found in the wild ............


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