# Age vs. Size



## PeanutbuttER (Dec 21, 2010)

I've noticed a lot of newer tort keepers always ask "how old is my tortoise?". My question is "why does that matter?". Torts live for so long and it's not like a dog or a gerbil that'll be dying on you soon if they're already 10. Age just seems so unimportant to me in tortoise keeping. Plus, it's my understanding that they can keep producing eggs until they are truly ancient so it's not like age slows down their life in any meaningful way.

I'm starting to realize that in tortoise keeping it is size that is actually important. Everything is based on size. For instance we use the donaghue ratio to find out weight based on size. There are no reliable universal growth charts that say how big your tort should be at what year, rather it just tells you how long and roughly what weight for that length of tort. 

So barring unusually old torts, what good does knowing a torts age really do? Where's that little tidbit of knowledge even get us?


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## John (Dec 21, 2010)

I would say some are just curious.


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## GBtortoises (Dec 21, 2010)

Age plays a very minute role in captive tortoise keeping. But I'm one of the "old timers" that base growth on age, not so much on charts. For example, in the wild a 2 year old Eastern Hermann's isn't going to be 4-5" long as it is often in captivity. But there is also a very noticeable cosmetic difference between the two. A wild caught 2 year old is going to be somewhere around 2.5", very smooth and with proportionate growth. Whereas a two year old captive born that is kept exclusively or almost completely indoors is usually larger, around 4" but with less than smooth growth and will often exhibit accelerated growth. 
So I often ask people how old their tortoise is and how big it is to get an idea of how rapidly it has been raised. I guess that only makes a difference if you're really interested in a tortoise looking like it would in it's true wild form, which I am. 
Other than that, is it important to know a tortoise's age for the benefit of the tortoise's care? Nope.
Is it important for some people to have an idea how old their tortoise is for their own personal reasons? Apparently. 
The tortoise doesn't know how old it is and I'm sure doesn't care.


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## yagyujubei (Dec 21, 2010)

Let's say you have just bought or want to buy a 3" leopard tortoise. Are you saying that there's no difference between a 3 month old super eater and fast grower, and a 1 year old that has barely grown, and is a poor eater. Personally, I want to know as much as possible about the ones I have , or am considering buying.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Dec 21, 2010)

Age is not as important for the average keeper. When it comes to breeding it may be an issue. There are no reliable growth charts in m opinion, they vary so much and have so many variables that contribute to overall growth and size. Age does have a factor for us as far as the aldabras go for breeding, not an exact age but older and mature animals have been way better at breeding for us.

I still struggle when people tell me they have a 400 pound captive born/raised male aldabra that is 35 years old and and he is a breeder. Way young and immature.


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## Neal (Dec 21, 2010)

I agree that age is relatively unimportant, but I do think it's interesting to know their age.


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## Maggie Cummings (Dec 21, 2010)

I think the only time age is relevant is when it is under a year old...Hatchlings are fragile and should only go to an experienced keepers...So a new keeper looking for a tortoise should know if what they are looking at is under a year old...


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## dmmj (Dec 21, 2010)

I was always told "size" does not matter.


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## Jermosh (Dec 21, 2010)

I think age is importent when they hit a certain milestone like 100yrs or something like that.


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## Edna (Dec 21, 2010)

dmmj said:


> I was always told "size" does not matter.



Who told you size doesn't matter ?



PeanutbuttER said:


> I've noticed a lot of newer tort keepers always ask "how old is my tortoise?". My question is "why does that matter?". Torts live for so long and it's not like a dog or a gerbil that'll be dying on you soon if they're already 10. Age just seems so unimportant to me in tortoise keeping. Plus, it's my understanding that they can keep producing eggs until they are truly ancient so it's not like age slows down their life in any meaningful way.
> 
> I'm starting to realize that in tortoise keeping it is size that is actually important. Everything is based on size. For instance we use the donaghue ratio to find out weight based on size. There are no reliable universal growth charts that say how big your tort should be at what year, rather it just tells you how long and roughly what weight for that length of tort.
> 
> So barring unusually old torts, what good does knowing a torts age really do? Where's that little tidbit of knowledge even get us?



We are used to thinking in terms of age for ourselves and our dogs and cats, and just carry that over to our torts, even though age is not an important indicator of their development or expiration date. At least people are not referring to the age of their tortoise in "Tortoise-Years", as they do with dogs. It peaves me no end when someone tells me their dog is 77 years old. How would that work out in tortoise-years? Silly, silly.


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## moswen (Dec 21, 2010)

well, first off i don't think very many new tort keepers actually know that part lol! sometimes what to feed plays a role though, like for my yearling sulcatas i would not feed them hay, but i would feed a juvenile/sub adult sulcata hay. i know sulcata is a bad example bc of the obvious size difference but just to paint a picture for you...


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## Balboa (Dec 21, 2010)

Once I found out there was really no way of guessing a tort's age, I kinda stopped caring, but I get where people want to know.

I think GB touched on the more important (at least to me) facet of size versus age in relation to possible "overgrowth" in a captive tortoise. He's not the first to mention this, and I would really be interested in some documentation on the issues. To be absolutely honest, the concept of "too fast" growth brought about by good diet and cares being unhealthy and causing defects versus harsh life and starvation being healthier seems absolutely crazy to me. Its like saying since modern man is on average 1 foot taller than they were in the middle ages because of modern medicine and nutrition we are all deformed. Of course, its two different species were talking about here, and we understand very little about torts at this point, so who knows.


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## Tom (Dec 21, 2010)

I agree that it matters for young ones, but not so much for adults.


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## Kristina (Dec 21, 2010)

Balboa said:


> Its like saying since modern man is on average 1 foot taller than they were in the middle ages because of modern medicine and nutrition we are all deformed.



Not to get too off topic here, but it has been shown also that children are growing faster and hitting puberty earlier than in times past. Osteoporosis is affecting more and more people each year, which I feel has something to do with fast growth rates having a negative effect on bone density. Also, people are living much, much longer than they were just a few decades ago due to advances in medical technology. Diseases such as Alzheimer's and dementia are also on the rise, and I personally believe this is in direct correlation to the fact that we are living, well, longer than we are meant to.

I have said before that tortoises growing too fast in captivity could be the reason for some of the bone issues that we see in captive raised tortoises - including pyramiding. The spongy bone often seen in pyramided tortoises is because the bone material is expanding too fast and becoming less dense, stretching, if you will.

Of course this is all conjecture on my part, but it makes sense to me, and is the biggest reason that I am not pushing either of my hatchlings to grow or mature at a fast rate. It also goes along with a couple of other ideas - that foods that tortoises are fed in captivity are more nutrient rich and in larger quantities than what tortoises find in the wild. Terry K. often says, "Keep 'em hungry!" and I have to agree. I feed my babies small amounts each day, and they are growing at a slower pace than some of the babies that other members have that are the same age, BUT, they are growing and gaining weight, and are smooth as silk


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## gummybearpoop (Dec 21, 2010)

I am with Gary (GBtortoises), Kyryah, Balboa, & Aldabraman on this.

I personally think many CB tortoises are powerfed (like with lizards and snakes so they can get to breeding size faster). Many keepers don't give their tortoises a break and feed them a lot of food every day of the year. Many tortoises experience a change in temperature/conditions/moisture/etc that either makes them hibernate/aestivate/not eat as much.

Sometimes, we get worried that our tortoise didn't eat a day or two. 

My russians are hibernating (usually for 3-4 months) then they eat a lot, then aestivate (for a few months), then eat a lot again before they start hibernating again. So, they end up eating about 4-6 months out of the year.

I prefer to know the age of the tortoise so that sometimes gives me an idea of how the tortoise was raised. 

If I were to get a breeding program together, I would prefer an animal that was "slowly grown" vs. a "power-fed" animal. I think in the long run, a "slowly grown" animal would be the better breeder. Not saying the "power-fed" animal wouldn't be a good breeder either though. I think the slowly grown animal would be a better, healthier animal throughout most of its life. Keyword: "I think" aka my opinion.
IE: Would you rather buy a 7 year old 14" Radiated tortoise VS. a 20 year old 13" Radiated tortoise. In the wild, Radiated tortoises take about 15-20 years to reach sexual maturity. So, I would ask how old the tortoise is and that is why it is important TO ME and I THINK important to the animal as well.

Oh yeah, you better believe that I know the birthdates on all my tortoises besides my russian tortoises (2 were rescues found walking the streets of Phoenix & another was saved from being chewed by a dog)


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## dmmj (Dec 22, 2010)

Maybe the reason those diseases are on the rise is because people are living longer, so there is more of a chance of them showing up, not because we are living to long. My 2 cents, though with today's economy it is more like 1/2 cent now


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## ALDABRAMAN (Dec 22, 2010)

dmmj said:


> Maybe the reason those diseases are on the rise is because people are living longer, so there is more of a chance of them showing up, not because we are living to long. My 2 cents, though with today's economy it is more like 1/2 cent now


Very possible.


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## GBtortoises (Dec 22, 2010)

A bit off subject, but relevant to age/size and growth rate: The first tortoise is a male Eastern Hermann's that I got few years ago from someone who raised it from a hatchling. It was 8 years old in this photo, it looks 50! Notice the strong ridging on each scute, not true pyramiding. The very pronounced ledge between the marginal and coastals. This is not the normal look of a well grown Eastern Hermann's. The keratin on the front marginals was very grown out past the bone structure, which is typical of accelerated growth. It becomes brittle and easily breakable as it is in this tortoise. It's nails are also very long and narrow, another sign of accelerated growth. This tortoise isn't actually that bad of an example of accelerated growth, just the only one that I happened to have a photo of at the moment. I've got others. I'm proud to say that none of the tortoises I have with accelerated growth or with pyramiding were raised here. Those that I've raised are more like the tortoise in the second photo. A slow, correct growth rate produces better results every time.

Example of accelerated growth, this tortoise is 8 years old and 5 1/2" SCL:





Example of normal growth rate, this tortoise is 14 years old and about 5 1/2", born and raised here:


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