# Keeping vs re-releaseing



## smarch (Sep 10, 2014)

I know we talk frequently about how CB animals are better to get and we should stop getting WC animals. I want to step aside from the pet-trade aspect of WC animals due to abuses we could start a whole other thread on (in fact there are many). But what is actually so bad about a WC animal?

Obviously in many cases there are CB ones ready to buy. Who are we to take an animal out of its environment like we have the right to do whatever we want, but it seems to be how humans are and it happens. But while its not good for the species in its natural environment isn't it better for the individual taken and put in a knowledgeable caring environment? To always have food and water available, especially in dessert tortoises, and to have an eye and medical care provided when needed. Isn't that better for the individual tortoise than living its life in its actual natural environment where it could run out of food or be picked of by a predator. I actually really don't have a personal opinion on this, I got too deep into ethics behind it and got lost.

I realize i'm putting human care and processes on animals that could really care less. But when provided a large adequate space and left alone and not handled all the time, would they not even know they're captive? Why do so many wild tortoises/turtles have such a hard time adjusting? If our point is to provide the most natural conditions possible wouldn't it be possible to food them if we never bothered them. How would they know?

I don't mean to say I think its ok to go out and scoop up a wandering tortoise, I just want opinions as to why it is how it is. 
I do know this is a view of a person who thinks humans have the right to control everything, which I do not believe. Its more or less why we do think its so wrong to grad WC animals when we can provide them care to better/extend their life? I would hope we can avoid the "humans don't have the right to feel entitled to control everything" I agree with this but its not an actual argument in my opinion.


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## Abdulla6169 (Sep 10, 2014)

I think it _may_ be OK if all offspring are sent back into the wild at birth (at the correct time of course)... But tortoises must be there for a healthy ecosystem, so we should give more than we take. I hope people more experienced than me can pitch in


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## TeguBuzz (Sep 10, 2014)

Simply put, a wild tortoise belongs in the wild. Taking an individual from the wild and trying to provide it with the exact sort of care and setup it had in it's old home, would probably be near-impossible to do unless you live in the individuals' native home. It's already hard enough setting up adequate living conditions at home for captive bred individuals. Why remove an individual from the wild, which usually causes stress to them, thus shortening their life-span, when you could purchase a captive bred specimen at a small size and raise it properly? Captive bred torts usually come out parasite/disease free and are easier to care for.

When I was a kid living in Greece, feels like centuries ago - I use to catch Greek torts and keep them as pets for short periods of time. Looking back on it all, the originally wild individual does not thrive well in captivity. If it was born in the wild and in raised in the wild, then it should stay in the wild. As @AbdullaAli stated, they're there for a reason. Just my opinion, sorry for being so direct.


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## smarch (Sep 10, 2014)

TeguBuzz said:


> Simply put, a wild tortoise belongs in the wild. Taking an individual from the wild and trying to provide it with the exact sort of care and setup it had in it's old home, would probably be near-impossible to do unless you live in the individuals' native home. It's already hard enough setting up adequate living conditions at home for captive bred individuals. Why remove an individual from the wild, which usually causes stress to them, thus shortening their life-span, when you could purchase a captive bred specimen at a small size and raise it properly? Captive bred torts usually come out parasite/disease free and are easier to care for.
> 
> When I was a kid living in Greece, feels like centuries ago - I use to catch Greek torts and keep them as pets for short periods of time. Looking back on it all, the originally wild individual does not thrive well in captivity. If it was born in the wild and in the wild, then it should stay in the wild. As @AbdullaAli stated, they're there for a reason. Just my opinion, sorry for being so direct.


 No need to apologies for being direct, I asked for opinions and that's what you gave, you never said I was stupid or that my opinion was stupid (which since I don't have a good opinion would have been a good trick lol). I like when people say it how it is.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 10, 2014)

If you keep a 'found' turtle or tortoise, you are removing variety from the existing gene pool. Because turtles and tortoises are territorial, and solitary, they don't 'find' each other very often to mate. When you remove one of the existing turtles in the territory, you've given them an even less chance of diversity in their gene pool.

Also, some turtles and tortoises have a very strong territory instinct and don't do well when removed from the wild.


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## smarch (Sep 10, 2014)

Yvonne G said:


> Also, some turtles and tortoises have a very strong territory instinct and don't do well when removed from the wild.


 This specific point makes me wonder why Russians are the most frequently caught, because they are quite territorial!


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## Yellow Turtle01 (Sep 15, 2014)

Well, I (would guess?) there is a high demand for russian torts, but somehow, even though there are many breeders supplying CB babies, AND adults, WC russians are still being caught and sold  because people are still buying WC torts... I can't say much, my russian is probably WC


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## leigti (Sep 15, 2014)

smarch said:


> This specific point makes me wonder why Russians are the most frequently caught, because they are quite territorial!


I really don't really know, except possibly because the "pipeline" is well formed and has been for years. The people in the country they come from know that they will get paid for them, the dealers buy them, and our pet stores buy them from the dealers. It won't stop until somebody puts a permanent break in the chain. That being said, I am sure my tortoise was wild caught also. And I wouldn't trade her for the world. I know nothing about Brady in tortoises, and I know there are good breeders and bad breeders just like everything else. I don't think the good breeders really want their tortoises sold in pet stores to people who know nothing about them. And I also think that in this country, and the world unfortunately, it all comes down to money. If I think about it too hard it feels like my head will explode, and makes me mad and frustrated because there's not much I can do about it. All I can do is try to take care of my animals the best I can.


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## leigti (Sep 15, 2014)

I have always wondered if there are significant behavioral differences between a wild caught and a captive bred tortoise. It seems like there would have to be. That would make a very interesting Long term study.


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## ascott (Sep 15, 2014)

> isn't it better for the individual taken and put in a knowledgeable caring environment? To always have food and water available, especially in dessert tortoises, and to have an eye and medical care provided when needed. Isn't that better for the individual tortoise than living its life in its actual natural environment where it could run out of food or be picked of by a predator.



No.

I would pose this question, wouldn't it be better for the government to come in and tell you where to live, what you can eat, when you can exercise, when you can partner up, who you can partner up with...after all, they would be doing it all for your own good...to make life easier for you, in your best interest.... how does that set, deep in your gut?


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