# HYBRIDS ARE NOT MULES JUST LOOK



## N2TORTS (Sep 16, 2012)

Well with all the debate and most of all nonsense .... more of a moral issue it seems ..... Here the Worlds first LILLIGER born in Russia ...... yes a DOUBLE HYBRID .... Father a Lion X Mom a Liger (tiger lion cross) . 
Way tooo cute ..... and maybe some ending myths about Mules and hybrids.
http://www.aol.com/video/meet-the-w...ing-grid7|maing6|daily-buzz6|sec7_lnk2|205949

JD~


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## DrewsLife727 (Sep 16, 2012)

Nice!


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## Kerryann (Sep 16, 2012)

She is too cute


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## Jacqui (Sep 16, 2012)

Yes she is cute, but I personally would rather my zoo spend it's limited money on keeping pure lions and tigers that have more future potential then a designer type cat.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Sep 16, 2012)

We've already been through this, guys. Breeding interspecific hybrids is wrong. Instead of conserving both lions and tigers, zoos like that one are now destroying both species by breeding ligers, "liligers," and whatever other kinds of hybrids they can think of. This is messed up. Quit applauding them.


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## N2TORTS (Sep 16, 2012)

Geo ..... I posted this so the myths about hybrids being mules is a bunch of BS!


I guess conservation is ....
Sorta like Keeping a High Temp tortoise in a Frozen state... eh ?


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## Tom (Sep 16, 2012)

What is your point here JD? That sometimes hybrids are fertile? That does not change anything about this issue for me.

This issue has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with diluting and ruining what precious resources we have in captivity. The government has seen fit to tell us we can't bring any new blood in, so I'd like to keep what we have well preserved.

All the pros and all the cons still feel the same way. What are you hoping to accomplish here?


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Sep 16, 2012)

N2TORTS said:


> Geo ..... I posted this so the myths about hybrids being mules is a bunch of BS!
> 
> I guess conservation is ....
> Sorta like Keeping a High Temp tortoise in a Frozen state... eh ?



JD, you are not debunking any myths here. When you create interspecific hybrids, you risk breeding an animal with reduced fertility and poor health. Period.

Okay. So there are "liligers" now. Big deal. Ligers, like all interspecific hybrid mammals, follow Haldane's Rule: females may occasionally be fertile, but males are always sterile (probably because males have one X and one Y chromosome, while females have two X chromosomes, so one may act as a backup).

And it's not just fertility. Did you know that ligers, despite their great size - indeed, because of it - generally have poor health? It's true. Rather like giant breeds of dog, they have cardiovascular problems, joint pain, and shortened lifespans.

In addition, because one parent species is solitary like most cats (the tiger), while the other is rather uniquely gregarious (the lion), ligers often have conflicting behavioral impulses, not knowing whether to spend time with others or go off by themselves.

Is this what you want, JD? Sickly, confused giants? And to what end? Your amusement? Bad form. Looks like you're the one trafficking in myths and BS here, not the zoologists.


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## N2TORTS (Sep 16, 2012)

TOM .... accomplish nothing ... except the fact TOO many times I see the false info about hybrids being unfertile ...*thatâ€™s it *~ 
I myself donâ€™t have a problem .... and thatâ€™s my choice ...
*If you donâ€™t like the article then donâ€™t open the thread*....at least you keep your tortoises' in a " close to possible " natural setting. Consider on how many tortoises are kept living in fish tanks inside for many years, rarely seeing the outside all which too many items to list , you will never achieve inside a complete artificial environment to match Mother Nature ....and thatâ€™s ok ?..... Or the greed like Hybrids ....just to say I own a tortoise? I mean not to applaud it â€¦ but A tortoise from the middle east living in a State that has 2x the snow fall of any state in the country and Thatâ€™s ok â€¦ Right? You crack me up! or shall I say ... Hypocrites and the power of the internet.

Are you guys married?


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## Jacqui (Sep 16, 2012)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> JD, you are not debunking any myths here. When you create interspecific hybrids, you risk breeding an animal with reduced fertility and poor health. Period.
> 
> Okay. So there are "liligers" now. Big deal. Ligers, like all interspecific hybrid mammals, follow Haldane's Rule: females may occasionally be fertile, but males are always sterile (probably because males have one X and one Y chromosome, while females have two X chromosomes, so one may act as a backup).
> 
> ...



Good points.

Please guys, I can see this getting a bit hot rather quickly, so remember to keep it civil, please.





N2TORTS said:


> TOM .... accomplish nothing ... except the fact TOO many times I see the false info about hybrids being unfertile ...*thatâ€™s it *~
> I myself donâ€™t have a problem .... and thatâ€™s my choice ...
> *If you donâ€™t like the article then donâ€™t open the thread*....at least you keep your tortoises' in a " close to possible " natural setting. Consider on how many tortoises are kept living in fish tanks inside for many years, rarely seeing the outside all which too many items to list , you will never achieve inside a complete artificial environment to match Mother Nature ....and thatâ€™s ok ?..... Or the greed like Hybrids ....just to say I own a tortoise? I mean not to applaud it â€¦ but A tortoise from the middle east living in a State that has 2x the snow fall of any state in the country and Thatâ€™s ok â€¦ Right? You crack me up! or shall I say ... Hypocrites and the power of the internet.



Wait, I thought we were talking hybrids here??? Let's stay on subject please.


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## CourtneyAndCarl (Sep 16, 2012)

There have been plenty of liger/tiger breedings, I don't know why it's such a huge deal that now there is a liger/lion breeding.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Sep 16, 2012)

Jacqui said:


> Good points.
> 
> Please guys, I can see this getting a bit hot rather quickly, so remember to keep it civil, please.



Sorry, Jacqui. I promise not to resort to _argumentum ad hominem_. It's just that this thread is ridiculous. Just because ligers can occasionally reproduce, that does not justify breeding captive interspecific hybrids throughout the animal kingdom. Healthy, genetically diverse animals should be our breeding goal, not hybrid novelty acts.


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## Jacqui (Sep 16, 2012)

futureleopardtortoise said:


> There have been plenty of liger/tiger breedings, I don't know why it's such a huge deal that now there is a liger/lion breeding.



Because we tend to usually think of a hybrid as being infertile. This shows a case of a female hybrid producing... that makes it a bit more more rare and special.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Sep 16, 2012)

futureleopardtortoise said:


> There have been plenty of liger/tiger breedings, I don't know why it's such a huge deal that now there is a liger/lion breeding.



Please see my comments above re: poor health and reduced fertility in ligers and other mammalian interspecific hybrids.


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## CourtneyAndCarl (Sep 16, 2012)

That's what I'm saying. Female ligers breed with male tigers quite often in captivity... so it has already been debunked that they may not be fertile. Male ligers are infertile, though.


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## Jacqui (Sep 16, 2012)

futureleopardtortoise said:


> That's what I'm saying. Female ligers breed with male tigers quite often in captivity... so it has already been debunked that they may not be fertile. Male ligers are infertile, though.



Your correct, I miss read your previous comment.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Sep 16, 2012)

N2TORTS said:


> TOM .... accomplish nothing ... except the fact TOO many times I see the false info about hybrids being unfertile ...*thatâ€™s it *~
> I myself donâ€™t have a problem .... and thatâ€™s my choice ...
> *If you donâ€™t like the article then donâ€™t open the thread*....at least you keep your tortoises' in a " close to possible " natural setting. Consider on how many tortoises are kept living in fish tanks inside for many years, rarely seeing the outside all which too many items to list , you will never achieve inside a complete artificial environment to match Mother Nature ....and thatâ€™s ok ?..... Or the greed like Hybrids ....just to say I own a tortoise? I mean not to applaud it â€¦ but A tortoise from the middle east living in a State that has 2x the snow fall of any state in the country and Thatâ€™s ok â€¦ Right? You crack me up! or shall I say ... Hypocrites and the power of the internet.
> 
> Are you guys married?



Again, please see my comments above. And we respond to these inflammatory, provocative threads because we want to intercept this disinformation, rather than letting it just go by. Also, instead of personally attacking Tom or any other member, why don't you just stick to the topic at hand ... and preferably, to the facts.






futureleopardtortoise said:


> That's what I'm saying. Female ligers breed with male tigers quite often in captivity... so it has already been debunked that they may not be fertile. Male ligers are infertile, though.



I work with bison, and the history of their forced hybridization with cattle a century ago is totally screwing up our conservation efforts for them now. Let's not do the same thing to lions and tigers. They are already threatened enough.


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## CourtneyAndCarl (Sep 16, 2012)

I would have to say that there is a huge difference between owning a pet, and then a zoo using their limited means of conservation on things that are doing absolutely no good for conservation... which is why I absolutely hate pandas


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## Tom (Sep 16, 2012)

Got it JD. Hybrids CAN sometimes reproduce. Point granted. No argument here.


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## N2TORTS (Sep 16, 2012)

Jacqui said:


> futureleopardtortoise said:
> 
> 
> > There have been plenty of liger/tiger breedings, I don't know why it's such a huge deal that now there is a liger/lion breeding.
> ...



Thats what caught my attention .....and thought worth sharing ...*PERIOD*



futureleopardtortoise said:


> I would have to say that there is a huge difference between owning a pet, and then a zoo using their limited means of conservation on things that are doing absolutely no good for conservation... which is why I absolutely hate pandas



How about Bamboo?......


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## CourtneyAndCarl (Sep 16, 2012)

I understand that's what caught your attention but what I was saying is that it isn't at all surprising since female ligers breed all the time  But it's sort of weird for them to breed with lions because generally speaking, ligers have more tiger characteristics (size especially) so they are more likely to get along with tigers than lions. 



N2TORTS said:


> futureleopardtortoise said:
> 
> 
> > I would have to say that there is a huge difference between owning a pet, and then a zoo using their limited means of conservation on things that are doing absolutely no good for conservation... which is why I absolutely hate pandas
> ...



Don't even get me started on frickin' pandas!


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## Yvonne G (Sep 16, 2012)

Yes, interesting. I already knew that some mules (horse/donkey) are able to reproduce too.


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## mctlong (Sep 16, 2012)

First off, that kitten is fricken' adorable - 

In addition to the hybrids, is the zoo in question also contributing resources to preserving pure lines of tigers and lions? 

I see no problem contributing resources to creating hybrids if they can demonstrate that there is something we can learn from the hybrids. If there's not scientific knowledge to be gained from the hybrids, then its a waste of resources., IMHO.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Sep 16, 2012)

Like I said, Haldane's Rule. Nothing new there.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 16, 2012)

I think its pretty interesting, and it helps science to learn more about reproducing and genes. For instance, they found out by doing the tiger/lion cross that the genes that tell the baby animal to stop growing come from one parent, not from both. That's why the liger gets so big. The gene to tell it when it is full grown, was not present. 

We don't like lots of things about science. To breed just for the sake of breeding...no, but for science? I think its ok.


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## CourtneyAndCarl (Sep 16, 2012)

What huge scientific discovery can be conjured by finding out that, at least in tigers and/or lions, there is a gene that tells the body to stop growing? I am a huge lover of science, but I think studying pointless things like that is kind of stupid. Scientific studies should have a high purpose than finding out "cool stuff", right?


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## mctlong (Sep 16, 2012)

I know that people are going to disagree with me on this one, but I'd rather one hybrid that can teach us one new thing about genetics than a thousand purebreds held in captive, artificial environments that teach us nothing new.


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## CourtneyAndCarl (Sep 16, 2012)

It isn't always matter of teaching when they are breeding captive pure breds, it is SUPPOSED to be a matter of preserving the species and hopefully one day putting the healthier, captive bred genes into the wild population... which in some cases is no longer the initiative, and those are the cases that I really really hate to ponder on... but once again, I must stop thinking about the stupid pandas


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## N2TORTS (Sep 16, 2012)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> Like I said, Haldane's Rule. Nothing new there.



Haldane's Rule is about the impact of hybridization between two related species. If the fertility is reduced then the heterogamous sex will suffer more than the homogamous sex. The heterogamous sex only has a single chance of inheriting a functional version of the fertility factor while the homogamous sex has two chances of inheriting the factor. Haldane's rule does not apply within species or does it ?. Any XX females that were sterile obviously did not pass on their chromosomes, so were removed from the gene pool. In fact, females with only one X chromosome (Turner Syndrome) are generally not sterile.............





mctlong said:


> I know that people are going to disagree with me on this one, but I'd rather one hybrid that can teach us one new thing about genetics than a thousand purebreds held in captive, artificial environments that teach us nothing new.


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## jaizei (Sep 16, 2012)

N2TORTS said:


> GeoTerraTestudo said:
> 
> 
> > Like I said, Haldane's Rule. Nothing new there.
> ...



Wouldn't it have been easier to just post a link?


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Sep 16, 2012)

mctlong said:


> I know that people are going to disagree with me on this one, but I'd rather one hybrid that can teach us one new thing about genetics than a thousand purebreds held in captive, artificial environments that teach us nothing new.



Remember, we're not talking about "purebreds" here. A purebred is an artificially selected animal with a known pedigree, often consisting of line breeding (i.e. incest).

In this case, we're talking about pure _species_. Lions and tigers have been reproductively isolated from each other for some 4 million years. It makes no sense to force them to mate with each other, because they cannot form a self-sustaining colony together.

I'll grant you that some experimentation may be enlightening. For the good of the science, perhaps a few lion-tiger matings may be justified. But perpetuating ligers (and "lilligers") like this is just a circus show.


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## N2TORTS (Sep 16, 2012)

jaizei said:


> N2TORTS said:
> 
> 
> > GeoTerraTestudo said:
> ...



nope too much to read ..... were you book monitor in school?
Do you know the last 10 years how much I have seen published , Hard copy , Net , Pics .. posters even that were MY actual work! 
When debates and other topics have been discussed in the past why would I try and re write my exact thoughts....


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Sep 16, 2012)

jaizei said:


> N2TORTS said:
> 
> 
> > GeoTerraTestudo said:
> ...



Thank you, Jaizei.

As for Haldane's Rule, it has been known since the 1920's that in mammalian interspecific hybrids, female offspring may be fertile sometimes, but male offspring never are. There has been some debate about this, but it's widely thought that the reason for this is that the double X-chromosome of the female mammal offers some protection against the loss of genetic information.

During gamete production, the gonads undergo meiosis, a kind of modified mitosis in which instead of reproducing the genome, the genome is mixed and reduced in size by half. As long as all the genes line up, meiosis goes well and the offspring are fertile.

In interspecific hybrids, though (mules, ligers, etc.), not all of the genes or even chromosomes line up perfectly. Therefore, although the animal as a whole may be viable, it is unable to produce gametes. However, sometimes the females may be at least partially fertile, because one of the X chromosomes may still line up correctly, yielding at least some eggs. (This is the same reason why homogametic birds and mammals are less likely to develop genetic disorders, too: the protective effect of duplicate sex chromosomes.)

So you see, ligers really _are_ the pantherine version of a mule.


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## dmmj (Sep 16, 2012)

emysemys said:


> To breed just for the sake of breeding...no, but for science?


That's always been my motto.


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## N2TORTS (Sep 16, 2012)

So Hybrids are not mules ?


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## leonardo the tmnt (Sep 16, 2012)

I don't think theres anything wrong whit making a new animal like a lioliger(lion+liger+tiger making this up but there could be a chance to make one) the only thing is that it could come whit all the cons of all the 3 animals I wouldn't want lose a original species


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## BowandWalter (Sep 16, 2012)

The parents of these can still continue to breed with others of their own species, and it looks like humans raise the liger and liliger offspring, so it isn't a full time job for the parents. They can go back to having purebred offspring. I'm on the fence about this though, it's interesting in a genetics point of view, but kinda cruel in a quality of life point of view. I have to agree that the kitten is adorable, no matter what it's parentage.


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## mctlong (Sep 16, 2012)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> mctlong said:
> 
> 
> > I know that people are going to disagree with me on this one, but I'd rather one hybrid that can teach us one new thing about genetics than a thousand purebreds held in captive, artificial environments that teach us nothing new.
> ...



Regardless of semantics, my sentiment remains the same.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 16, 2012)

Beautiful young creature! That is it i want one, lol!


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## CourtneyAndCarl (Sep 16, 2012)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> Beautiful young creature! That is it i want one, lol!



I have watched too much Fatal Attractions on Animal Planet to think that is a good idea


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## Terry Allan Hall (Sep 18, 2012)

Tippy Hedron (actress in Hitchcock's_ The Birds_) has a big cat sanctuary, and had a liligon several years ago, so this not the 1st one, as that video implies. No idea if it's still alive, but was about 20 years ago.

Often, female Xs are fertile, but males rarely, if ever, are.



emysemys said:


> Yes, interesting. I already knew that some mules (horse/donkey) are able to reproduce too.



Only the females, never the males, for some reason.


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## CourtneyAndCarl (Sep 18, 2012)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> Tippy Hedron (actress in Hitchcock's_ The Birds_) has a big cat sanctuary, and had a liligon several years ago, so this not the 1st one, as that video implies. No idea if it's still alive, but was about 20 years ago.
> 
> Often, female Xs are fertile, but males rarely, if ever, are.



I sort of wondered if there were others, seems odd that liger breeding to tigers is pretty common and no one has thought to do it with a lion.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Sep 18, 2012)

mctlong said:


> I know that people are going to disagree with me on this one, but* I'd rather one hybrid that can teach us one new thing about genetics than a thousand purebreds held in captive, artificial environments that teach us nothing new*.



A good point...


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## leonardo the tmnt (Sep 18, 2012)

Terry Allan Hall said:


> A good point...



Yeah good point


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