# Does diet contribute to pyramiding.



## Anyfoot

Something I would like to here others opinions on so I can get my own train of thought correct please. 

Regarding pyramiding, there are generally 2 thoughts on the subject to stop pyramiding from happening, some say diet, some say hydration. 
Actually I think we all agree on the hydration part, methods of hydration can be different from high humidity to forced soaks. For this discussion we don't need to get bogged down with hydration methods. 
The diet related to pyramiding gets kicked out so easy "it has nothing to do with pyramiding". I'm struggling to understand why the diet is not part of the pyramiding problem as well as hydration. 

I'll ATTEMPT to explain my thoughts on the subject. 

In captivity our torts get food fed to them on a plate, I don't mean literally on a plate, they have a good rich food source supplied to them every day, not like in the wild where times can be hard, when times are good in the wild maybe it's still never as good as what we offer 365 days of the yr in captivity. If our torts in captivity are getting more rich foods than what naturally happens in the wild then they must be growing faster in captivity. 
Hydration and growth rate must go hand in hand. When it's dry and arid in the wild the growth slows right down, maybe even stop. When it's wet and foods are in abundance they grow faster with good hydration.
If hydration and growth rate have to have a ratio to grow a smooth tortoise then diet must come into it because diet dictates growth rate. 
So let's say soaking our torts every day is the ultimate way of hydrating our torts, this soaking method may overcome our overfeeding of rich foods in captivity. Yeah the tort grows fast because of an abundance of rich foods, but we are also keeping up with the fast growth by providing soaks to keep them well hydrated. 
If another keeper is very cautious and only feeds their tortoise foods that are not rich(and maybe even limit the amount) then the tort grows very slowly, this keeper may get away with just having good humidity to keep the hydration in line with growth rate. 

If I lived in Columbia and had wild hatchling redfoots wandering on my land in their natural habitat, and I started putting piles of rich foods down, like kale,bananas and chicken this must have an impact on their natural hydration to growth ratio, I've just upset the balance by giving them foods to grow too fast in their climate. 

Lets say I owned a plot of land in Majorca where hatchling Hermann's wandered on my land and I started putting piles of alfalfa, broccoli, kale, spinach and the odd strawberry down, surely I've just increased their growth rate and taken the growth rate out of their natural growth to hydration ratio. 
In both these cases have I just introduced the chance of pyramiding in wild torts? 
The worst case would be to offer these foods during the dry season and the best case would be to offer these foods during wet season to the wild hatchlings wandering on my land. 
If I picked up these hatchlings on my land and soaked them every day for 15mins, have I just corrected my introducing rich foods so the hydration to growth ratio is back on par. 

Thanks.


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## saginawhxc

While I think that hydration and humidity levels can absolutely "solve" pyramiding, I also think that what you are arguing here is correct and have said similar things myself.

I suspect and often argue on the fb groups that at certain hydration and humidity levels the ratio no longer is relevant.

I do think if you were to head to an area that has a definitive dry season and feed foods rich in nutrients and protein, then yes, you would likely introduce pyramiding into a wild population. 

So I don't think it's technically correct to say that diet has nothing to do with pyramiding, but I instead usually argue that it is such a small part of the puzzle that it is borderline irrelevant.


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## Cowboy_Ken

Anyfoot said:


> Something I would like to here others opinions on so I can get my own train of thought correct please.
> 
> 
> If I lived in Columbia and had wild hatchling redfoots wandering on my land in their natural habitat, and I started putting piles of rich foods down, like kale,bananas and chicken this must have an impact on their natural hydration to growth ratio, I've just upset the balance by giving them foods to grow too fast in their climate.
> 
> Lets say I owned a plot of land in Majorca where hatchling Hermann's wandered on my land and I started putting piles of alfalfa, broccoli, kale, spinach and the odd strawberry down, surely I've just increased their growth rate and taken the growth rate out of their natural growth to hydration ratio.
> In both these cases have I just introduced the chance of pyramiding in wild torts?
> The worst case would be to offer these foods during the dry season and the best case would be to offer these foods during wet season to the wild hatchlings wandering on my land.



ALFALFA,=This legume is very high in protein, and although a little will not harm a tortoise, it is best avoided.

BROCCOLI,=Broccoli contains goitrogens that interfere with thyroid activity and could damage the liver and kidneys. Therefore, although Broccoli is not actually toxic, you are advised to not feed it to your tortoise. 

KALE,= Kale has a high calcium content and only half the oxalic acid of dandelions, making it a potentially nutritious food. 
Unfortunately, like all the brassicas, it is also high in goitrogens (which interfere with iodine uptake, resulting in thyroid problems). However, Kale also has a high iodine content, which lessens the goitrogen effect and it is therefore acceptable to feed to your tortoise in moderation, especially in winter with non-hibernating tortoises, when fresh weeds are scarce.
SPINACH=Spinach contains a high level of calcium, but it also contains oxalic acid which binds with calcium in the diet and prevents the tortoise from absorbing and using it. In addition, it possesses a high level of calcium oxalate crystals which contribute to the formation of kidney stones. Some of the calcium oxalate is in the form of needle-shaped crystals called raphides, and when consumed in large amounts these can irritate the skin and mucous membranes in the mouth and throat. 
So although Spinach is not toxic as such, and small amounts are unlikely to cause a tortoise any great damage, given the potential it has to limit calcium intake and cause internal irritation, we do not recommend that people feed it to their tortoises.
and the odd STRAWBERRY = 
Older leaves develop toxins, so only offer young leaves as part of a varied diet and never the fruit, unless your tortoise is a tropical fruit-eating species. Contains tannins. 
Often in the past, feeding canned dog or cat food was recommended as well as other misguided information was passed down to keepers to the point that even many zoos were caring for their tortoises incorrectly. 
One of the wonderful aspects of this tortoise community here at the forum is that we all equally share our pains and our gains regarding the raising of tortoises. For instance in regard to an idea you postulated concerning feeding wild hatchlings and this putting their growth food ratio all catty-wompus and out of sorts I need to point out that most tortoises in their native range are endangered either critically or at the least at a threatened level. This in and of itself would produce the very situation you would be providing by offering abundant food to hatchlings, (less competition for food resources=more proper food for the remaining native tortoises. Food/growth ratio all thrown out with the trash. Yet we still don't find real wild tortoises with pyramiding present. 
My conclusion is that pyramiding is caused by a lack of hydration which leads to the death of cells on the outside ring of the scutes. This repeated live/die cycle continues until the cells just keep piling up on each other creating a pyramid. Hope this helps you figure it out. Remember, I've never seen a smooth sulcata smoke tobacco, but this doesn't convince me that pyramiding is caused by tortoises that do not smoke so I won't be teaching any of mine to pick up the habit soon to remain smooth. I'm hopping spelling and grammar we're all good in this thread, it's much too long for me to proof read it all.


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## Anyfoot

Cowboy_Ken said:


> ALFALFA,=This legume is very high in protein, and although a little will not harm a tortoise, it is best avoided.
> 
> BROCCOLI,=Broccoli contains goitrogens that interfere with thyroid activity and could damage the liver and kidneys. Therefore, although Broccoli is not actually toxic, you are advised to not feed it to your tortoise.
> 
> KALE,= Kale has a high calcium content and only half the oxalic acid of dandelions, making it a potentially nutritious food.
> Unfortunately, like all the brassicas, it is also high in goitrogens (which interfere with iodine uptake, resulting in thyroid problems). However, Kale also has a high iodine content, which lessens the goitrogen effect and it is therefore acceptable to feed to your tortoise in moderation, especially in winter with non-hibernating tortoises, when fresh weeds are scarce.
> SPINACH=Spinach contains a high level of calcium, but it also contains oxalic acid which binds with calcium in the diet and prevents the tortoise from absorbing and using it. In addition, it possesses a high level of calcium oxalate crystals which contribute to the formation of kidney stones. Some of the calcium oxalate is in the form of needle-shaped crystals called raphides, and when consumed in large amounts these can irritate the skin and mucous membranes in the mouth and throat.
> So although Spinach is not toxic as such, and small amounts are unlikely to cause a tortoise any great damage, given the potential it has to limit calcium intake and cause internal irritation, we do not recommend that people feed it to their tortoises.
> and the odd STRAWBERRY =
> Older leaves develop toxins, so only offer young leaves as part of a varied diet and never the fruit, unless your tortoise is a tropical fruit-eating species. Contains tannins.
> Often in the past, feeding canned dog or cat food was recommended as well as other misguided information was passed down to keepers to the point that even many zoos were caring for their tortoises incorrectly.
> One of the wonderful aspects of this tortoise community here at the forum is that we all equally share our pains and our gains regarding the raising of tortoises. For instance in regard to an idea you postulated concerning feeding wild hatchlings and this putting their growth food ratio all catty-wompus and out of sorts I need to point out that most tortoises in their native range are endangered either critically or at the least at a threatened level. This in and of itself would produce the very situation you would be providing by offering abundant food to hatchlings, (less competition for food resources=more proper food for the remaining native tortoises. Food/growth ratio all thrown out with the trash. Yet we still don't find real wild tortoises with pyramiding present.
> My conclusion is that pyramiding is caused by a lack of hydration which leads to the death of cells on the outside ring of the scutes. This repeated live/die cycle continues until the cells just keep piling up on each other creating a pyramid. Hope this helps you figure it out. Remember, I've never seen a smooth sulcata smoke tobacco, but this doesn't convince me that pyramiding is caused by tortoises that do not smoke so I won't be teaching any of mine to pick up the habit soon to remain smooth. I'm hopping spelling and grammar we're all good in this thread, it's much too long for me to proof read it all.


Thanks Ken, an interesting read as always. 
New word coined. 'cattywompus'. 

Never thought of more food to share out because there are less wild tortoise today. Good point, this could alter the quantity of food not the quality. 

You haven't seen my randy male redfoot, he's always a smokin.


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## GBtortoises

You can't compare foods fed in captivity and the same foods fed in a natural (wild) condition because it is not only the quality of diet that determines an animals growth. It is also very much their surrounding environment and the adversities that they must endure in order to survive. Or the lack of. Making that comparison is comparing "apples and oranges".
In captivity tortoises are generally pampered with an over abundance of highly nutritional foods on a constant basis. Their living conditions are "ideal" (deemed by us the keepers) and they have no real survival struggles such as droughts, floods, fires, farming, famine or predation.
In the wild one or most of those factors exist on a daily basis. They don't come out and gorge themselves on piles of food and lay around in the sun for hours on end. The environmental adversities that they've evolved to endure also determine their growth and survival from season to season.


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## Anyfoot

GBtortoises said:


> You can't compare foods fed in captivity and the same foods fed in a natural (wild) condition because it is not only the quality of diet that determines an animals growth. It is also very much their surrounding environment and the adversities that they must endure in order to survive. Or the lack of. Making that comparison is comparing "apples and oranges".
> In captivity tortoises are generally pampered with an over abundance of highly nutritional foods on a constant basis. Their living conditions are "ideal" (deemed by us the keepers) and they have no real survival struggles such as droughts, floods, fires, farming, famine or predation.
> In the wild one or most of those factors exist on a daily basis. They don't come out and gorge themselves on piles of food and lay around in the sun for hours on end. The environmental adversities that they've evolved to endure also determine their growth and survival from season to season.


 Yep. Agree with all this. 
So does our constant supplying of high nutritional foods contribute to pyramiding. 

What your saying is that some natural circumstances brohibit a constant supply of good diet in the wild, the easiest example is drought, if we fed a tortoise high nutritional diet during a drought what would happen if anything to that tortoises Carapace?


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## GBtortoises

In most areas of the world natural food sources, meaning those not cultivated or altered in any way by man, are available based on seasonal growth and climate conditions that may alter that growth. Drought being a major alteration to food growth and availability. Animals like tortoises that don't travel vast areas in search of food must deal with the conditions within their range. We humans are guilty of treating animals like we think and act ourselves. We think every other living thing has to eat a big meal every day, sometimes more than once a day. For mammals and birds, that produce their own internal energy, this is somewhat true. We need to eat much more often to maintain normal bodily functions. This is not true of reptiles and amphibians. Just speaking of tortoises, they can go for very long periods without food and in some situations without much water or moisture. They've adapted to survive drought conditions as well as other harsh adversities. During this time of minimal activity, in some cases dormancy (aestivation), it's very doubtful that any growth takes place. The body concentrates on surviving, not thriving. If you feed a tortoise highly nutritional food during a long period of drought you're probably going to see very little to no growth, good or bad. You're just going to enable that animal to better survive the drought conditions. While it may be eating well, it still needs regular hydration. The higher nutritional diet is probably going to provide the minimal amount of hydration the tortoise's body needs to maintain it's ability to process the food and pass wastes. So in reality you may not be helping it. The tortoise might be better off instinctually aestivating which causes it's bodily functions to greatly decrease and conserve. Very much like it does in hibernation.


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## Anyfoot

Thank you for your time and an explaination to your thoughts @GBtortoises.


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## Markw84

We do see pyramided tortoises in the wild, in their natural range. Especially in assurance colonies, or pens locals keep to later sell or eat the animal. I feel both are attributed to faster growth in drier conditions. I do not share the belief that diet has anything to do with pyramiding other than if abundant food is offered in dry conditions that would not allow nutritious food to be growing there naturally. It takes so little of the food value of what is eaten to allow for proper keratin growth, that you would have to literally starve a tortoise to effect keratin growth.

I see it so often referred to that tortoises in their natural range are in optimal conditions! I don't agree. I believe tortoises in their natural range are in optimal conditions perhaps 2-3 months out of the year, and in some years, not even close to that. The rest of the time, they have developed ways to hide from and escape their conditions they are living in. I also believe tortoise grow fast in the wild, but only a few months out of the year. Those months are wet enough to stimulate rich, nutritious plant growth and the tortoises are taking advantage of that abundance. In captivity, a fast growing sulcata may add 15% of it's weight a month, a 100g tortoise will be 535g in a year, and 2800g in two years. In the wild a tortoise will only grow like that maybe two months out of the entire year. The rest of the year it hardly grows at all! So it would take 10 - 12 years to reach the same size. And it is the same wet time of year that will grow plants that also provides the humid puddles and hides to keep the shell hydrated while growing in that time of plenty. So, its not slow growth vs fast, its fast growth followed by no growth most of the year.

Now feed that tortoise when the "natural conditions" are too dry to grow fresh, green, nutritious food, and that dries out the new keratin growth too quickly and you will get tortoises that indeed pyramid - in their home range. Have an abnormal year where rains come sporadically where plant growth occurs, but the area dries out much quicker than normal years in between storms, and you will have wild tortoises start to pyramid.

So tortoises in the wild do get very nutritious foods - its just a couple months out of the year that conditions allow that nutritious food to grow. And those same conditions provide the humid areas a fast growing tortoise needs. Those same fast growing plants, are drawing water up their stems through the roots, and creating a nice humid hide for the tortoise who pushes deep into the root ball for the bulk of the time when not eating. An puddles to soak in. And more moisture in the burrows.

And for @Cowboy_Ken I agree with much of what you are saying. However, my conclusion different in that it is the edges of the scute that is the only place new keratin is laid down in a growing tortoise. A scute is not living cells, once the keratin is fully formed. Just as our fingernails and hair is not living cells once formed. It is only the newly forming keratin at the place of deposition that is living. And that new keratin if dried too quickly hardens and forces the new growth that is still occurring at that edge to expand downward, instead of swelling and developing level to the previous ring. In comparative analysis, you will see a pyramided tortoise has had the edges of the scute pushed DOWN flattening the overall profile of the tortoise. Scutes are not raised up, but valleys are created at every seam. The biggest valleys created where the carapace is exposed to the most drying - the top scutes the most, the costals, next, and least on the marginals. Ever notice how many people on the forum will comment on a totally smooth sulcata or leopard - how nice and high the dome looks?


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## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> Now feed that tortoise when the "natural conditions" are too dry to grow fresh, green, nutritious food, and that dries out the new keratin growth too quickly and you will get tortoises that indeed pyramid - in their home range. Have an abnormal year where rains come sporadically where plant growth occurs, but the area dries out much quicker than normal years in between storms, and you will have wild tortoises start to pyramid.



Thanks Mark. 
I agree with everything you said. 
Doesn't this paragraph prove that diet plays a role. A continuous supply of quality diet gives a continuous fast(faster than wild) growth, so because we keepers need to keep up with that continuous faster growth we supply a super hydrated situation to keep growth and hydration on par(so the new keratin stays supple and grows smooth as the tort grows faster than it would in the wild). Have we keepers by excessively feeding our tortoises created a situation where they are growing faster in captivity than in the wild, so we have to super hydrate them to bring back on par the growth rate and hydration. 

The fact our torts grow faster in captivity SHOULDN'T have anything to do with pyramiding. 
Let's say in the wild a tortoise undergoes 2 seasons, wet and dry. The wet season is 3 months long and the dry season is 9 months old. If we imitate the 3 month long period for 12 months a yr in captivity then our torts in theory grow 4 times faster and at a smooth rate. 
I picked out super foods in my first post on a purpose. 
If hydration and growth rate have to be on par to get smooth growth are we on the limit in captivity of keeping both in sync. Is this why we see some with minor pyramiding and some smooth with the same care. Have we taken hydration to the maximum we can by offering high humidity, daily soaks and wetting the Carapaces. Have we exceeded the maximum par for our hydration techniques with our captive diets. 
If we add a scale of 1 to 3 for hydration and for growth rate. 3 being the best hydration and the fastest growth rate. 
For example in the wild....
1 could be drought and no tortoise growth. 
2 could be arid with low quality foliage and slow tortoise growth. 
3 could be wet season(puddle galore, high humidity and heavy rainfall) with foliage/fruits at its best and fast tortoise growth. 
All 3 examples maintain growth rate on par to hydration levels maintaining smooth growth. 
Back to our captivity techniques, we've copied the hydration method of the wet season, but have we exceeded the on par growth by offering super rich foods that don't exist in the wild even in wet season. 

Right wheres those head ache tablets. 

One last random question. If a wild tort at 4 yrs old measures 4" SCL and a captive tort at 1 yr old measures 4" SCL. Have both torts used the same amount of Vitamin D(D3) ?


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## ZEROPILOT

I'm open for any theory or fact.
My seven equal aged and south Florida grown tortoises show from no to moderate pyramiding with the SAME humidity, food and temperature.
What would make a few more susceptible, I have no clue.


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## eric joranson

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'm open for any theory or fact.
> My seven equal aged and south Florida grown tortoises show from no to moderate pyramiding with the SAME humidity, food and temperature.
> What would make a few more susceptible, I have no clue.


that would indicate some sort of genetic disposition for it So if the trait is there; it probably had some sort of function in the wild. Triggered by some environmental signal; possible to reduce reproduction during a period of adverse climate/ food source conditions. As some sort of recessive gene; it would appear in some and not in others. <---- just a late night at the pc theory.


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## Big Charlie

I think diet might have something to do with it. I raised Charlie in an open chamber, with drying heat lamps, and no added humidity, in an arid climate. He had daily or nearly daily soaks for the first year or so, and then nothing after that. At age 5 he moved outdoors, again in an arid climate, although he did have a burrow part of the time. He is fairly smooth at 18 years old. Early on, I fed him mostly weeds. That is perhaps the only thing I did differently.


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## polDurna

Well, by the sounds of these posts, I was apparently more intuitive than I thought about my RFs.
Not having a clue when I bought my first one what pyramiding was or that most commercial foods were for grassland torts, I decided to "spoil" my RF with fresh foods. My DD (then 14) asked me what would they eat "at home"? So we found out where home was, chose a mountain forest in the classic RF range near the "top" of the Amazon Basin and said "this is Home" so: What do they have for food? When do they get rained on? When is it (how) hot? When is it (how) cold? How far do they wander from day to day? and we planned PokeyHontus' captive life around what we learned (we didn't make it to tortoise sites online for about 4 months). When I got to a site that had a big thing on Pyramiding I freaked out! My RF was dying of Malnutrition! but then I looked at her shell closer and noticed that the bumpy parts of her scoutes were not meeting at the edges, the new growth was flat in between the bumps. I asked our local vet ("you have a WHAT?!? you want me to TREAT?!") and then decided I had learned more than he knew. But the info I could NOT find was what healthy growth after Pyramiding looked like. So for a while we had PokeyHontus on as close of a diet as she would find on or near the ground in the Pongo Canyon of Brazil, we "rained & puddled her when WeatherBug said "Home" rained and her Scoutes seemed to stay flattened out. Then we sent her to summer camp with someone (DS then 17) who assured me she would be tended as if she were in our care. When PokeyHontus came back from summer camp she had a raised ridge around her scoutes flat growth. - I questioned DS and learned that he had NOT tended PokeyHontus, but had left her in the care of the camp Nature Director who had put her on this "awesome" pellet diet and kept her in an unused horse stall with a raised baseboard around the doors. Needless to say PokeyHontus will never go to camp again. In the time since her stay at summer camp we have put her back on her "Home" regimen and her scoutes have flattened out again. When we went to get PokeyHontus a roommate we went back to the same store chain and got a RF that was the same caprice length as PokeyHontus but Pongose' had more Pyramiding height ( probably due to having been kept the same amount of time PH had been living with us in the pet store). In the year or so that we have had Pongose' her scoutes are beginning to have a noticeable flat growth ring. My conclusions of all of this is that collectively we all have a lot more to figure out about the fine line between "pet care" and optimal living conditions. I am now only 5 yrs learning, and still looking for reasonable and definable answers, I am glad I wandered in! Thank you for helping me not feel so lost.


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## Tom

What happens in the wild is a matter of much debate and speculation. I've seen so much harm come to tortoises, and continue to see it to this day, because of our speculation about the wild, and our attempts to duplicate what we think it is. I think its a good thing to try to learn. I think its a good thing that we try to understand as much as we can about life in the wild for our tortoises. I find this wild life of tortoises fascinating and interesting… *BUT*, in my experience, all of our speculating and postulating, amounts to a hill of beans. We know, or we should know, what works in captivity and what doesn't by now. I do. There is still more to learn and more to perfect, but we've got the general idea now. Even someone who has lived in Africa their whole life doesn't know what really happens out there.

When I make the statement that food has nothing to do with pyramiding, I am talking to a person with a captive bred tortoise in a country and climate that is foreign to that species. What do I base such an assertion on? The Austrian study is one thing, but beyond that, I base it on what I've seen with my own two eyes. You can feed a tortoise almost nothing and nearly starve it to death on the "right" foods, and it will still pyramid in the wrong conditions. Conversely, you can feed too much of all the "wrong" foods like grocery store produce, fruit and cat food to a sulcata, and it will still grow smoothly in the "right" conditions. I've seen many examples of both. If it were food related, why doesn't the poorly fed tortoise raised on cat food but in monsoon conditions pyramid horribly? Why does the tortoise raised on an ideal quantity of dried grasses and weeds, pyramid horribly? The answer to both questions is: Because it has nothing to do with the food and everything to do with the conditions.

You can't stop or prevent pyramiding by feeding a different quantity, quality or variety of food, if the tortoise is housed in the wrong conditions. Conversely, let the tortoise live outside in a tropical rainforest, and it won't pyramid no matter what you feed it or how much.


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## Big Charlie

Tom said:


> What happens in the wild is a matter of much debate and speculation. I've seen so much harm come to tortoises, and continue to see it to this day, because of our speculation about the wild, and our attempts to duplicate what we think it is. I think its a good thing to try to learn. I think its a good thing that we try to understand as much as we can about life in the wild for our tortoises. I find this wild life of tortoises fascinating and interesting… *BUT*, in my experience, all of our speculating and postulating, amounts to a hill of beans. We know, or we should know, what works in captivity and what doesn't by now. I do. There is still more to learn and more to perfect, but we've got the general idea now. Even someone who has lived in Africa their whole life doesn't know what really happens out there.
> 
> When I make the statement that food has nothing to do with pyramiding, I am talking to a person with a captive bred tortoise in a country and climate that is foreign to that species. What do I base such an assertion on? The Austrian study is one thing, but beyond that, I base it on what I've seen with my own two eyes. You can feed a tortoise almost nothing and nearly starve it to death on the "right" foods, and it will still pyramid in the wrong conditions. Conversely, you can feed too much of all the "wrong" foods like grocery store produce, fruit and cat food to a sulcata, and it will still grow smoothly in the "right" conditions. I've seen many examples of both. If it were food related, why doesn't the poorly fed tortoise raised on cat food but in monsoon conditions pyramid horribly? Why does the tortoise raised on an ideal quantity of dried grasses and weeds, pyramid horribly? The answer to both questions is: Because it has nothing to do with the food and everything to do with the conditions.
> 
> You can't stop or prevent pyramiding by feeding a different quantity, quality or variety of food, if the tortoise is housed in the wrong conditions. Conversely, let the tortoise live outside in a tropical rainforest, and it won't pyramid no matter what you feed it or how much.


Sometimes there are smooth tortoises raised in Arizona, without added humidity, and pyramided tortoises raised in Hawaii and Florida, in naturally humid environments. No one seems able to explain why this happens.


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## Anyfoot

I've heard about the smooth torts grown in dry Arizona. Is it true, can anyone shed any light on this situation please. 

@Tom, what you are saying is if we provide perfect conditions, the perfect conditions overcome any flaws within our diets and 
Most of the time this is not an issue in the wild because when perfect conditions are not met, neither is the perfect diet. 
The worst result for us keepers in captivity is perfect food and not perfect conditions. With this theory the minor variations of pyramiding we see within the same clutches has to be either we don't yet have perfect conditions or the last hurdle is not related to growth/hydration ratio at all.


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## polDurna

Hello again,
I guess I forgot to mention the other part of what we did to replicate "Home" for our RFs. The tortiose table is located in the "solar area" of our formal dining room, an area in which I keep my inside plants, the kitchen herbs and the fresh weeds I grow for the RFs. This room is almost a greenhouse, with a open turtle pond and the tortiose table semi enclosed with a misting system that is not on the regular room timer but is engaged with the rain fall at Pongo Canyon. PH's time at summer camp she spent in an open horse stall without a regular moisture source beside her water bowl. The lack of Both natural range food, and significant water/moisture source did have an impact on her shell growth, knowing the conditions at the pet store chain(small dry glass aquarium, pellet food), I also suspect the same for Pongose'. That being said while not perfect by any means, taking into factor natural conditions of the chosen "Home" area for our RFs has had a visable effect on their shell growth.


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## polDurna

And again, 
And I was just reminded by DD(now 19) that when we found out the home range of the RF Torts, the Pongo Canyon area of an extreamly large area and varied ecosystems was chosen with the happy coincidence that I have a friend who lives in the area to call on for local conditions. While still not perfect and fairly presumptive, I still find the difference in scoute growth an interesting result of total habitat change.


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## ZEROPILOT

Some of the now native habitats of the Redfoot are not actually native.
For example, the population in the Caribbean that were released as food by early sailers..
They seem to be very adaptive and I've never heard of any wild populations showing pyramiding.


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## MichaelaW

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'm open for any theory or fact.
> My seven equal aged and south Florida grown tortoises show from no to moderate pyramiding with the SAME humidity, food and temperature.
> What would make a few more susceptible, I have no clue.


Possibly the factor of varying food consumption in individuals may explain this.


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## ZEROPILOT

MichaelaW said:


> Possibly the factor of varying food consumption in individuals may explain this.


Interesting
The more dominant ones DO get the best and the most of what's there.


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## Tom

Big Charlie said:


> Sometimes there are smooth tortoises raised in Arizona, without added humidity, and pyramided tortoises raised in Hawaii and Florida, in naturally humid environments. No one seems able to explain why this happens.



Outdoors in a damp warm humid burrow in AZ. They can't survive topside on 118+ degree days.

Indoor raised babies in HI or FL from dry enclosures with dry substrate under carapace desiccating lamps. Saw that in Louisiana too.


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> With this theory the minor variations of pyramiding we see within the same clutches has to be either we don't yet have perfect conditions or the last hurdle is not related to growth/hydration ratio at all.



This last hurdle has been vexing me for years now. Raise 10 clutch mates together in the same enclosure with the same diet and same conditions, and one or two will show some pyramiding. Not a lot, but some. Why???

My other problem is that the growth on all of mine turns terrible whenever I move them outside full time, even thought they have 50-70% humidity in their night boxes. Moving to FL is not an option right now...


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## Markw84

ZEROPILOT said:


> Interesting
> The more dominant ones DO get the best and the most of what's there.


I do not feel diet contributes at all. I've just had too many decades of trying every diet imaginable, along with slow growth, vs fast growth. I tried commercial pellet only, vs never feed them anything - just let them graze on the grass and weeds in their large enclosure. High Protein, low protein. Everything! Nothing changed the way they pyramided at all.

I do believe genetics plays a role in it though. Just as some people have strong, thick hair, and some, strong, some weak fingernails. some people's fingernails tend to curl more than others that grow flatter. Also, choice of basking frequency, and choice of favored hides probably play a role. But those are all minor individual variances. If we keep the keratin from drying out, as we've learned from @Tom 's definitive experiments, we will stop the more objectionable pyramiding that is unique to poorly raised captives.

I do believe it is more the external hydration that is key. Drinking water and soaks a must for great health and hydration. Keeping the carapace from drying - humidity, misting, hides that hold humidity, etc.- key for pyramiding.


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## Anyfoot

Tom said:


> This last hurdle has been vexing me for years now. Raise 10 clutch mates together in the same enclosure with the same diet and same conditions, and one or two will show some pyramiding. Not a lot, but some. Why???
> 
> My other problem is that the growth on all of mine turns terrible whenever I move them outside full time, even thought they have 50-70% humidity in their night boxes. Moving to FL is not an option right now...



At what size/age do you put yours outside full time? 

Have you got any thoughts/theories at all regarding the last hurdle?


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> At what size/age do you put yours outside full time?
> 
> Have you got any thoughts/theories at all regarding the last hurdle?


Most move outside full time when they outgrow their indoor 4x8' chambers. Usually when they tortoises are 8-10". I get nice beautiful smooth growth right up to that point and then BLAH!!! Its really odd too because at 6" they spend most of the most days outside in the dry air, but sleep in their closed chambers. When they move outside full time, they simply sleep in their 4x8' night box with moderate humidity and similar temps, instead of their indoor closed chamber with a little higher humidity. Its really not that much of a change, but it has a huge effect on their growth and appearance.

I've given this last hurdle a lot of thought, and I don't have a solution yet.


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## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> At what size/age do you put yours outside full time?
> 
> Have you got any thoughts/theories at all regarding the last hurdle?


I actually have had the experience opposite to @Tom when moving mine outside. I believe both Tom and I move them outside about the same size with more extended outside time starting at 4-6" and full time 8-10". My experience was always using closed chambers indoors, but no humidity. The first decade with sulcatas was in the Pleasanton area of California with a lot of marine influence and always evening humidity. I also always have had extremely well planted and well watered enclosures. Others seem to have problems with their enclosure looking more barren from overgrazing by the sulcatas. Mine did not do that. I did notice that once outside, they always loved to spend lots of time pushed under bushes and wet clumps of grass. I believe that is what allowed mine to find their own humidity, despite my own humidity ignorance back then.

So I think the nighttime humidity of a well planted enclosure always benefited mine. Evening and overnight dew is greatly enhanced by plant growth.

Here is a picture of my tortoise enclosure mid summer that I had for 17 years prior to my last move 3 years ago.


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## Anyfoot

It would be ideal if diet wasn't playing a role in pyramiding at all. As long as the nutrition levels are met then where ever keepers live in the world diet wouldn't be an issue. For example, some keepers can't access mushrooms or weeds. I struggle getting papaya. Obviously diet still needs to be within the menu of the individual species as well. 
After this thread I'm veering away from diet. I think Tom hit the nail on the head with correct conditions, you can introduce good foods in bad conditions and force pyramiding, you will struggle to get a tortoise to pyramiding if conditions are perfect. It's not until man is introduced that the diet to conditions is messed up, or on rare occasions in the wild when freak weather systems show up. 
I'm thinking we haven't got the conditions constant enough. I really do think we need to look at the UVB more. It's the one thing we all ignore, they need UVB no matter what is our opinion. Could the UV spectrum be drying them out. I have some babies now without a UVB light and no heat source near them. They are constantly a dull matt color. They are never drying out, the high humidity is not allowing them to dry out. I know it's dangerous what I'm doing and fully aware of the consequences if it goes pear shaped. If babies hide away in the wild at some point of their life they must come out into the incandescent sun light. At what point is that I ask myself. 6 months, 1 yr, 2yrs. If someone(like Tom mentioned) puts there's outside too early and they started pyramiding then we know at that age or size it's too early for that species. I know at 6" or 3yrs old redfoots will carry on growing smooth when exposed to sunlight. 
BTW I'm giving my no UVB hatchlings natural bugs in hope that's covering the D3 issue. Or maybe they have enough D3 in storage to last them the 'hide away' period of their lives. If in the wild they don't grow as fast, maybe there is sufficient storage of D3 to get them through 'hide away' stage, but in fast growing captivity there is not enough, this would also imply age is priority over size for them to be exposed to the sun's heat. 
Then again I could be way off the mark. We don't know unless we try.


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## Anyfoot

Mmm, I did not expect you 2 to say 8-10". 
I know it will vary, but on average how old are sullies at that size?


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## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> It would be ideal if diet wasn't playing a role in pyramiding at all. As long as the nutrition levels are met then where ever keepers live in the world diet wouldn't be an issue. For example, some keepers can't access mushrooms or weeds. I struggle getting papaya. Obviously diet still needs to be within the menu of the individual species as well.
> After this thread I'm veering away from diet. I think Tom hit the nail on the head with correct conditions, you can introduce good foods in bad conditions and force pyramiding, you will struggle to get a tortoise to pyramiding if conditions are perfect. It's not until man is introduced that the diet to conditions is messed up, or on rare occasions in the wild when freak weather systems show up.
> I'm thinking we haven't got the conditions constant enough. I really do think we need to look at the UVB more. It's the one thing we all ignore, they need UVB no matter what is our opinion. Could the UV spectrum be drying them out. I have some babies now without a UVB light and no heat source near them. They are constantly a dull matt color. They are never drying out, the high humidity is not allowing them to dry out. I know it's dangerous what I'm doing and fully aware of the consequences if it goes pear shaped. If babies hide away in the wild at some point of their life they must come out into the incandescent sun light. At what point is that I ask myself. 6 months, 1 yr, 2yrs. If someone(like Tom mentioned) puts there's outside too early and they started pyramiding then we know at that age or size it's too early for that species. I know at 6" or 3yrs old redfoots will carry on growing smooth when exposed to sunlight.
> BTW I'm giving my no UVB hatchlings natural bugs in hope that's covering the D3 issue. Or maybe they have enough D3 in storage to last them the 'hide away' period of their lives. If in the wild they don't grow as fast, maybe there is sufficient storage of D3 to get them through 'hide away' stage, but in fast growing captivity there is not enough, this would also imply age is priority over size for them to be exposed to the sun's heat.
> Then again I could be way off the mark. We don't know unless we try.


Craig

There is so much more to UV light than just UVB and D3 production. In natural sunlight, over 95% of the UV is UVA. UVA has definitely been shown with many, many species of animals of all types to be necessary for activity, levels, wellness, ability to recover quick from injury or illness, breeding activity, etc, etc, etc. by providing dietary D3, you are addressing the issue of possible MBD and calcium absorption, but don't miss the far wider reaching benefits of UVA.

Also, I am not trying to split hairs, but there is a big difference to sunlight vs. incandescent light. Incandescent light is light produced by an electrical current put through a thin metallic filament, heating it to where it is so hot it emits light - and a very different part, and distribution of "light" than sunlight. And that will vary depending upon the type of material used, type of glass used, and temperature of the filament.

UV light could effect keratin very well. It certainly has the most major effect of aging on our skin, and hair. However, I believe pyramiding is more of a quicker effect of the drying of the newly forming keratin too quickly. UV exposure is more long term unless WAY TOO strong. So I think looking more in the direction of IR - the other end of the spectrum - is more plausibly a factor. IR is heating and drying. Natural sunlight reaching earth has mostly near-IR and the most drying frequencies have been filtered by the moisture in the atmosphere. Artificial IR even in the near-IR ranges does not have these wavelength of peak water absorption removed by atmospheric filtering, so the moisture in whatever it is illuminated on will have much more effect than it would in sunlight. Now our CHE's emit IR in a range longer than those water absorption wavelengths. More cellular heating value, less water absorption. However, incandescent bulbs do emit most near IR, and in the range of most "natural sunlight" but none of the water absorption wavelengths have been filtered. I think there lies better experiment value! IMO.


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## MichaelaW

What do you all think about Indotestudo and Manouria and how they rarely exhibit pyramiding?


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## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> Mmm, I did not expect you 2 to say 8-10".
> I know it will vary, but on average how old are sullies at that size?


I was typing my reply as Tom was and didn't see his until I posted, so I see we are on the same page there!

Mine are usually in their second year by that size. 8" is normally about 1400-1500g


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## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> Craig
> 
> There is so much more to UV light than just UVB and D3 production. In natural sunlight, over 95% of the UV is UVA. UVA has definitely been shown with many, many species of animals of all types to be necessary for activity, levels, wellness, ability to recover quick from injury or illness, breeding activity, etc, etc, etc. by providing dietary D3, you are addressing the issue of possible MBD and calcium absorption, but don't miss the far wider reaching benefits of UVA.
> 
> Also, I am not trying to split hairs, but there is a big difference to sunlight vs. incandescent light. Incandescent light is light produced by an electrical current put through a thin metallic filament, heating it to where it is so hot it emits light - and a very different part, and distribution of "light" than sunlight. And that will vary depending upon the type of material used, type of glass used, and temperature of the filament.
> 
> UV light could effect keratin very well. It certainly has the most major effect of aging on our skin, and hair. However, I believe pyramiding is more of a quicker effect of the drying of the newly forming keratin too quickly. UV exposure is more long term unless WAY TOO strong. So I think looking more in the direction of IR - the other end of the spectrum - is more plausibly a factor. IR is heating and drying. Natural sunlight reaching earth has mostly near-IR and the most drying frequencies have been filtered by the moisture in the atmosphere. Artificial IR even in the near-IR ranges does not have these wavelength of peak water absorption removed by atmospheric filtering, so the moisture in whatever it is illuminated on will have much more effect than it would in sunlight. Now our CHE's emit IR in a range longer than those water absorption wavelengths. More cellular heating value, less water absorption. However, incandescent bulbs do emit most near IR, and in the range of most "natural sunlight" but none of the water absorption wavelengths have been filtered. I think there lies better experiment value! IMO.


 Don't worry about splitting hairs with me. 
I know there is much more to UV than just UVB and D3. My point is, I have 11 hatchlings in an enclosure with only a UVB source, heat comes from within the room they are in. If I spray them, they dry up within an hour. 
My new babies without UVB don't dry up. However I am also not providing them with a hide, if they want security they must dig in under the moss, which they do. Maybe because they spend so much time under moist moss it takes longer for them to dry, well actually they are not drying because they are back in the moss before they have time to dry. There is 2 identical set ups, tomorrow (should have been today) I'm putting a UVB light over one of the set ups as a comparison. 
I meant desiccating not incandescent. I'm good at English literature, have you noticed. . Could have played the old spell check card but I'm to honest.


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## Markw84

MichaelaW said:


> What do you all think about Indotestudo and Manouria and how they rarely exhibit pyramiding?


My take on that would be that it is the non-hibernating, active baskers, the more grassland, savanna type species that are the most prone. Those are the ones that are sold as "desert" or "dry" species. People look at their "natural ranges" and incorrectly conclude they need dry conditions. These tortoises in their natural range have to find more humid places in a dry landscape as part of their survival mechanism. The more "forest type" species are in a naturally more humid environment to begin with. It is not tough for them to find their humid niche in their environment. Other than redfooted, the species you mention are not as common and I would guess more experienced and learned keepers have these types. Since they come from more "forest" environments, when purchased, the advice is much more humidity driven.


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## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> Don't worry about splitting hairs with me.
> I know there is much more to UV than just UVB and D3. My point is, I have 11 hatchlings in an enclosure with only a UVB source, heat comes from within the room they are in. If I spray them, they dry up within an hour.
> My new babies without UVB don't dry up. However I am also not providing them with a hide, if they want security they must dig in under the moss, which they do. Maybe because they spend so much time under moist moss it takes longer for them to dry, well actually they are not drying because they are back in the moss before they have time to dry. There is 2 identical set ups, tomorrow (should have been today) I'm putting a UVB light over one of the set ups as a comparison.
> I meant desiccating not incandescent. I'm good at English literature, have you noticed. . Could have played the old spell check card but I'm to honest.


Incandescent vs desiccating - makes perfect sense!

I guess my point was in great part to reflect on the value of UVA. So when you say you are providing no UVB to a group - most all UVB sources we use are also providing far more UVA than UVB, and nothing else we illuminate enclosures with provides full-range UVA. Taking away the UVB is taking away the more widely valuable UVA. ??


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## Anyfoot

MichaelaW said:


> What do you all think about Indotestudo and Manouria and how they rarely exhibit pyramiding?


What's the diet of these 2 species. How do they live, in forests or out in the open?
Homeana live in forests, eat high protein levels and I've never seen a pyramided one yet. 


Markw84 said:


> Incandescent vs desiccating - makes perfect sense!
> 
> I guess my point was in great part to reflect on the value of UVA. So when you say you are providing no UVB to a group - most all UVB sources we use are also providing far more UVA than UVB, and nothing else we illuminate enclosures with provides full-range UVA. Taking away the UVB is taking away the more widely valuable UVA. ??


I see what you are saying now. I was under the impression I am still providing UVA via my led lights and the natural light coming through the windows. It's not dark in the enclosure what so ever.


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## ascott

Anyfoot said:


> Something I would like to here others opinions on so I can get my own train of thought correct please.
> 
> Regarding pyramiding, there are generally 2 thoughts on the subject to stop pyramiding from happening, some say diet, some say hydration.
> Actually I think we all agree on the hydration part, methods of hydration can be different from high humidity to forced soaks. For this discussion we don't need to get bogged down with hydration methods.
> The diet related to pyramiding gets kicked out so easy "it has nothing to do with pyramiding". I'm struggling to understand why the diet is not part of the pyramiding problem as well as hydration.
> 
> I'll ATTEMPT to explain my thoughts on the subject.
> 
> In captivity our torts get food fed to them on a plate, I don't mean literally on a plate, they have a good rich food source supplied to them every day, not like in the wild where times can be hard, when times are good in the wild maybe it's still never as good as what we offer 365 days of the yr in captivity. If our torts in captivity are getting more rich foods than what naturally happens in the wild then they must be growing faster in captivity.
> Hydration and growth rate must go hand in hand. When it's dry and arid in the wild the growth slows right down, maybe even stop. When it's wet and foods are in abundance they grow faster with good hydration.
> If hydration and growth rate have to have a ratio to grow a smooth tortoise then diet must come into it because diet dictates growth rate.
> So let's say soaking our torts every day is the ultimate way of hydrating our torts, this soaking method may overcome our overfeeding of rich foods in captivity. Yeah the tort grows fast because of an abundance of rich foods, but we are also keeping up with the fast growth by providing soaks to keep them well hydrated.
> If another keeper is very cautious and only feeds their tortoise foods that are not rich(and maybe even limit the amount) then the tort grows very slowly, this keeper may get away with just having good humidity to keep the hydration in line with growth rate.
> 
> If I lived in Columbia and had wild hatchling redfoots wandering on my land in their natural habitat, and I started putting piles of rich foods down, like kale,bananas and chicken this must have an impact on their natural hydration to growth ratio, I've just upset the balance by giving them foods to grow too fast in their climate.
> 
> Lets say I owned a plot of land in Majorca where hatchling Hermann's wandered on my land and I started putting piles of alfalfa, broccoli, kale, spinach and the odd strawberry down, surely I've just increased their growth rate and taken the growth rate out of their natural growth to hydration ratio.
> In both these cases have I just introduced the chance of pyramiding in wild torts?
> The worst case would be to offer these foods during the dry season and the best case would be to offer these foods during wet season to the wild hatchlings wandering on my land.
> If I picked up these hatchlings on my land and soaked them every day for 15mins, have I just corrected my introducing rich foods so the hydration to growth ratio is back on par.
> 
> Thanks.




Diet is huge...just as important as proper environment...while what surrounds is important-- what is consumed is equally...along with many other factors that we simply can not put into some simple fix formula....try to offer as many micro climates for the tortoise to access on free will, from dry and cool to warm and humid and don't forget the dry basking spot that the tortoise can go to and fro at will...along with food items that are good for them as well as a slip in of some that are just good TO them....after all, well being is not simply an outwardly smooth shell but also to allow some satisfaction that allows an overall well being.


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## MichaelaW

Anyfoot said:


> What's the diet of these 2 species. How do they live, in forests or out in the open?
> Homeana live in forests, eat high protein levels and I've never seen a pyramided one yet.
> 
> I see what you are saying now. I was under the impression I am still providing UVA via my led lights and the natural light coming through the windows. It's not dark in the enclosure what so ever.


The diet and habitat is very similar to homeana. What I find perplexing is how some of the other species like sulcatas and leopards are raised under very precise and humid conditions, yet still have some degree of pyramiding. I raise my forstenii with somewhat dry substrate yet with high air humidity, due to the fact that they are prone to shell rot as hatchlings. I have never seen a pyramided forstenii. Mine grow extremely fast but perfectly smooth. Could this lend evidence to the genetic factor?


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> Mmm, I did not expect you 2 to say 8-10".
> I know it will vary, but on average how old are sullies at that size?



If started correctly, that is 12-18 months old.


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## Tom

ascott said:


> Diet is huge...just as important as proper environment...



Huge in what regard? Overall health, or pyramiding?


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## Anyfoot

MichaelaW said:


> The diet and habitat is very similar to homeana. What I find perplexing is how some of the other species like sulcatas and leopards are raised under very precise and humid conditions, yet still have some degree of pyramiding. I raise my forstenii with somewhat dry substrate yet with high air humidity, due to the fact that they are prone to shell rot as hatchlings. I have never seen a pyramided forstenii. Mine grow extremely fast but perfectly smooth. Could this lend evidence to the genetic factor?


Don't know the answer about genetics, but my guess is yes because I think homeana's keratin grows different to the redfooted species. I'm not seeing prominent growth rings with my homeana that we see with redfoot tortoises, not at 9 months old anyway. 
If we are comparing, Leo's, sullies, and redfoots for example I think they all grow the same.


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## Big Charlie

Markw84 said:


> I actually have had the experience opposite to @Tom when moving mine outside. I believe both Tom and I move them outside about the same size with more extended outside time starting at 4-6" and full time 8-10". My experience was always using closed chambers indoors, but no humidity. The first decade with sulcatas was in the Pleasanton area of California with a lot of marine influence and always evening humidity. I also always have had extremely well planted and well watered enclosures. Others seem to have problems with their enclosure looking more barren from overgrazing by the sulcatas. Mine did not do that. I did notice that once outside, they always loved to spend lots of time pushed under bushes and wet clumps of grass. I believe that is what allowed mine to find their own humidity, despite my own humidity ignorance back then.
> 
> So I think the nighttime humidity of a well planted enclosure always benefited mine. Evening and overnight dew is greatly enhanced by plant growth.
> View attachment 204343
> Here is a picture of my tortoise enclosure mid summer that I had for 17 years prior to my last move 3 years ago.


This is a good point. I've seen many outdoor enclosures posted on the forum that look barren. Charlie has access to our entire yard which is kept watered. There are plenty of bushes to hide under with soil that never dries out. There is one that Charlie spends a lot of time under in the summer.


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## paludarium

I'd recommend this article to anyone who has an interest in diet and pyramiding: 
https://moh-it.pure.elsevier.com/en...nergy-x-ray-absorptiometry-for-use-in-evaluat

Both group 1 and group 3 were fed naturally growing vegetation, but group 1 was housed in an artificial setting and group 3 was maintained in an outside enclosure. However, pyramidal growth was highest in group 1, all tortoises had pyramiding; pyramiding was not evident in group 3, none of the tortoises had pyramiding. Group 2 was housed in an artificial setting and fed vegetables grown for human consumption, two of the ten tortoises in this group had pyramiding.


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## Robert Hutchens

Tom is for the most case right but it's not 100% It is almost 100% when comes to sulcatas other species very. Just do your best with the knowledge you have acquired here at the forum.


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## Anyfoot

I still have mixed thoughts on the pyramiding discussion. Logic tells me that diet can't play that big of a roll in pyramiding because across the globe torts undergo varied diets and grow smooth. Then we say growth coincides with diet in the wild. 
For example.....dry conditions= no growth And wet conditions = growth. If it was this simple then slow growth in wet conditions would solve the problem, or our super moist captive conditions would cancel out any pyramiding due to fast growth. Nothing makes sense regarding the diet. At the end of the day you could have 2 baby redfoots in the wild, one living off of foiage it's managed to hide in and the other could be lucky enough to have a supply of ants for protein as well as the foliage. Does this mean one is more susceptible to pyramiding or as the overall conditions assured smooth growth of both torts. The later makes more sense. 
This thought process then leads to 'are our conditions correct'. 
I have a group of 11 reaching 10 to 12 months old, there's a change in growth happening with them and time will tell if it's good or bad change. I mistakingly let these 11 have access to light coming in through a window which provided a safe haven to bask. Will this play a roll in growth? The heat source is from within a room so there is absolutely no possibility that I am drying them out with artificial heating. I spray the torts every day twice and soak every day, lately it's every other day. Humidity is 90%+, I don't use grocery greens for now. Diet is mixed and equal for every tort. UVB is a tube light. You would think they should grow ok. I'm not so sure. 
Next group is 22 babies up to 4 months old. Exact same conditions but without the window. 

Im still at the beginning of a major learning curve that a lot of you experts have been on for a while. I listen and respect everyone's opinion, and nothing falls on deaf ears with the slightly different opinions on raising torts. Slow growth, fast growth , soak, don't soak, blah blah blah. 
What I want to know is have any breeders kept big groups of hatchlings for a couple of yrs to really see the outcome. 
From what I'm experiencing with the pace my torts grow at I could sell on every single redfoots tortoise at 6 months old and they look perfectly smooth. It's after 6 to 7 months period that things start to change. 

Back to conditions, if any of my 22 pyramid(even just one tort) then my conditions are not correct. Im starting to think babies live large parts of life semi burried into the ground, it's hard to imitate this because in captivity they become fearless. It's rediculous how my 11 come out of hiding as soon as they see me, the fear for survival is not there. 

It's all interesting stuff.


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## William Lee Kohler

Just a couple questionable thoughts please. Did not see anything about metabolic bone disease here or I missed it. Isn't that what causes pyramiding and not keratin growth. The keratin only covers the bone under it after all. Vitamin D, proper calcium metabolism and proper lighting all are very important parts and food DOES supply at least some of this. Much persuasion causes me to begin seeing value in more external H2O than I would have given credence not long ago. Tortoises living in very poor food spots can still grow very slowly, get all the sun, some rain and grow smooth shells over a longer period can't they?
If MDB can be prevented shouldn't most normally kept tortoises grow smooth shells even if growing fairly rapidly? Perhaps there is an optimum(limited?)growth rate beyond which pyramiding will happen regardless of the best food/habitat conditions? And that brings us back to food or perhaps too much of it being a possible problem.


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## Anyfoot

I understand why you are thinking what you are saying, I've had and still do have the same thoughts bouncing around in my mind. Basically what your saying is if the correct nutritional diet with all vitamins and mineral requirements are met the bone structure should grow smooth and correct and the keratin follows the bone structure. The problem is some of the decade keepers on here have been down the road of correct diet with slow or fast growth and got pyramided torts. Soon as they added hydration of some form to the exact same diet then torts grew smoother. You could look at it as the original diet was incorrect because the mineral ' WATER ' was too low. 
Where the line is drawn between MBD and just pyramiding has me confused. It seems a poor diet would produce an MBD tort in every aspect of its bone structure (limbs), this is obvious. As we improve diet all MBD is overcome except to the point of pyramiding(if we want to class that as minor MBD for now), at this point we add hydration techniques to overcome pyramiding.
It looks to me that the carapace bone structure is thicker than any other bone structure when young, is it that all bone structure requires lubrication to grow and for example leg bones can acquire it from food sources because it's a smaller bone, where as the carapace bone structure being thicker also requires external lubrication. 
I know there's quite a lot more to nutrition than this but 2 examples of a visual to us keepers are, 
If limbs are distorted and torts dragging feet then we know calcium and D3 is out of balance. That can get deeper moving onto calcium and phosphorus then into diet type.etc etc. 
If a tort is healthy and active put pyramided we can assume all nutritional needs were met except additional hydration techniques outside of the diet. 

Just thoughts.


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## Markw84

Craig:

To me it is obvious that since the pyramiding pattern follows scute seam pattern, not bone seam pattern, it is the scute causing the pyramiding. You can have smooth tortoises with MBD and pyramided tortoises with MBD. Separate issues. I do feel MBD will exacerbate the pyramiding as the bone remains much more pliable. But the scute growth causes the pyramiding.

Fast vs slow growth has nothing to do with pyramiding. I have kept over 100 tortoises for over a year to see the effects of all different regimens I could possible come up with. Slow growth will somewhat mitigate some pyramiding as there is a much narrower seam of new growth to desiccate, so in dry conditions, the effect is less pronounced with a smaller seam exposed. Also in the experiment above we all discussed a year ago or so, the "slow growth" group also had lower nighttime temps which automatically increases the humidity substantially in their enclosure. So they had 1/2 their time in a more humid environment. Some have discounted this, but I monitor temp and humidity in all my enclosures with a graph reading every 1 minute. As an example in my Burmese night box yesterday, the humidity was 86% most all night, but in the daytime as temps crept up 15°, the humidity dropped to 67% average for over 8 hours during the day.

All my results have shown slow growth when dry = slow pyramiding.
Fast growth when dry = fast pyramiding
slow growth humid = smooth
fast growth humid = smooth.

No matter what diet I used = no difference in the above. I have done everything with groups from no feeding at all - let them graze naturally on what grows in the enclosure. To a test of pellet only diet their first year. And everything in between including grocery greens.

I think we will always see minor differences in "perfectly" kept individuals, no matter what we do. We will not see the dramatic pyramiding, but will get slight pyramiding in some. I believe that may have to do with genetics, just as different individual humans have very different growing fingernails - some thick and hard, other almost paper thin. I've heard enough women complain about that in reference to keeping their nails!

But I think the majority of the variation is the individual characteristics and habits of the individual tortoise. Some will stay hidden and moist more, while other are out exploring and basking more. Some sleep in a hide, others don't.

We can even see in the wild now that tortoises that are growing "unnaturally" during drier seasons are also pyramiding. The expansion of agriculture has given a food source to many "wild" tortoises that now grow in a dry time of year when they would not have previously been able to grow. You see that with stars, leopards, but never wild sulcatas. That is a major telling difference. Because there has been no agricultural expansion in the Sahel. There, it has only be grazing expansion and actual expansion of desertification. Still no growth in the dry season. Still no wild sulcatas are ever found pyramided.

@Tom put it simply before I caught up, but "pyramiding is caused by GROWTH in conditions that are too dry". When a tortoise grows, whether fast or slow, if that new exposed keratin layer dries too quickly, it will prematurely harden forcing the continuing growth of that seam downward.


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## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> Craig:
> 
> To me it is obvious that since the pyramiding pattern follows scute seam pattern, not bone seam pattern, it is the scute causing the pyramiding.


 I understand everything you say except the above paragraph. 
What are we seeing in these photos? What is keratin and what is bone?


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## Markw84

Ok. Tried to show best I could if you can follow the arrows.

The smaller tortoise still is growing and you can see the fontanels have not filled in and are still open. This tortoise also looks like it was wild caught juvenitle that was then raised and starting to pyramid. So a great example of seeing how the scute pattern is beginning to deform the bone and has absolutely no effect on the growth seams of the bone. Only pyramiding starting where the scute seams were.

The larger tortoise actually shows where even the "growth rings" will indent the bone and be visible with the scute gone! The fontanels are completely gone and filled in with bone on the older tortoise.


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## Anyfoot

Got ya mark. Makes perfect sense now, the crazy paving lines are actually bone seems. I thought that was just the bone structure drying out, and you answered my next question, which was where are the fontanells on the baby tort? 
On the adult tort you can see 2 full hexagon and 2 half hexagon shapes on the 4th vertebral. Are these hexagon shapes where bone structure started on the spine?


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## Markw84

Yes, those hexagons are the individual bone plates - the vertebrals. The vertebral SCUTES will cover about 3 vertebral BONES as the bones are much smaller plates than the scutes. I also think that is why the vertebrals are much more resistant to smoothing out in a previously pyramiding tortoise, as the vertebral bones are smaller and the scute seam can tip an entire bone plate almost folding it as the scutes seam will normally coincide with the middle of a vertebral bone plate. That is also what makes a tortoise shell much stronger - the seams of scutes vs bone do not line up.


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## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> Yes, those hexagons are the individual bone plates - the vertebrals. The vertebral SCUTES will cover about 3 vertebral BONES as the bones are much smaller plates than the scutes. I also think that is why the vertebrals are much more resistant to smoothing out in a previously pyramiding tortoise, as the vertebral bones are smaller and the scute seam can tip an entire bone plate almost folding it as the scutes seam will normally coincide with the middle of a vertebral bone plate. That is also what makes a tortoise shell much stronger - the seams of scutes vs bone do not line up.


Yes cross over like a brick wall makes for a stronger structure. 
I keep coming across people who put coconut oil on the carapace and succeed in growing smooth torts, the unnatural method just rubs across my grain(probably me just been stubborn). Do you think that in the wild there is a natural equivalent to oils. Something as simple as mud on the carapace, if yes do you think the mud is not only helping keep the carapace humid, it's also offering mineral benefits to the carapace growth.


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## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> Yes, those hexagons are the individual bone plates - the vertebrals. The vertebral SCUTES will cover about 3 vertebral BONES as the bones are much smaller plates than the scutes. I also think that is why the vertebrals are much more resistant to smoothing out in a previously pyramiding tortoise, as the vertebral bones are smaller and the scute seam can tip an entire bone plate almost folding it as the scutes seam will normally coincide with the middle of a vertebral bone plate. That is also what makes a tortoise shell much stronger - the seams of scutes vs bone do not line up.


Yes cross over like a brick wall makes for a stronger structure. 
I keep coming across people who put coconut oil on the carapace and succeed in growing smooth torts, the unnatural method just rubs across my grain(probably me just been stubborn). Do you think that in the wild there is a natural equivalent to oils. Something as simple as mud on the carapace, if yes do you think the mud is not only helping keep the carapace humid, it's also offering mineral benefits to the carapace growth.


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## Markw84

Yes.

I think there may well be something to that. My sulcatas and stars are always throwing mud on themselves especially lately with the extreme heat we are having this year. It would make sense to me that anything that can help keep the new keratin hydrated would help reduce pyramiding. I have been doing some coconut oil experiments myself currently.


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## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> Yes.
> 
> I think there may well be something to that. My sulcatas and stars are always throwing mud on themselves especially lately with the extreme heat we are having this year. It would make sense to me that anything that can help keep the new keratin hydrated would help reduce pyramiding. I have been doing some coconut oil experiments myself currently.


 Its next on my agenda. I'm almost certain my last clutch of 9 are fertile and ready soon, was thinking 3 with oil, 3 with mud and 3 with nothing on carapace.


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> Its next on my agenda. I'm almost certain my last clutch of 9 are fertile and ready soon, was thinking 3 with oil, 3 with mud and 3 with nothing on carapace.



Mud only works if its stays mud, in my experience. Once the mud dries, I don't see it making any difference.


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## Tom

William Lee Kohler said:


> Just a couple questionable thoughts please. Did not see anything about metabolic bone disease here or I missed it. Isn't that what causes pyramiding and not keratin growth. The keratin only covers the bone under it after all. Vitamin D, proper calcium metabolism and proper lighting all are very important parts and food DOES supply at least some of this. Much persuasion causes me to begin seeing value in more external H2O than I would have given credence not long ago. Tortoises living in very poor food spots can still grow very slowly, get all the sun, some rain and grow smooth shells over a longer period can't they?
> If MDB can be prevented shouldn't most normally kept tortoises grow smooth shells even if growing fairly rapidly? Perhaps there is an optimum(limited?)growth rate beyond which pyramiding will happen regardless of the best food/habitat conditions? And that brings us back to food or perhaps too much of it being a possible problem.



I'm referencing your post here William, but addressing the whole group and anyone reading:

MBD is a "catch-all" phrase the can include many bone related maladies. By far the most common and the one we usually refer to regarding our reptiles is a lack of calcium and the resultant decline and changes this causes within our animal's skeletal system. Basically, it can be defined as calcium deficiency. There are two main causes: 1. Poor diet. 2. Lack of D3, which can happen for a variety of reasons.

Going along with our pyramiding discussion, there are some people who refer to pyramiding as a form of metabolic bone disease. I suppose this can't be denied as pyramiding does greatly affect bone density, shape and structure. Pyramided bone is porous inside and greatly "expanded", while non-pyramided bone is dense and thin. So pyramiding is a metabolic issue with the bone, but this confuses the issue for some people because while it may technically be a form of MBD, it is not _the_ form of MBD that reptile people are usually talking about. For anyone with children, the term "colic" is similar. Everyone has heard of a colicy baby. Some of us have had one or more. But "colic" is actually six different maladies that cause similar symptoms. All of our attempts to treat our baby's "colic failed because we were treating the wrong cause. My daughter had three of the six causes simultaneously. Once we correctly treated all three, she was perfectly fine. When talking about MBD, we must agree about which specific "thing" we are talking about. Going forward, when I mention MBD, I am specifically referring to the calcium or D3 deficiency as it pertains to reptiles.

Having established the above, MBD and pyramiding are two different and un-related maladies. I can grow (and have grown…) a heavily pyramided tortoise that has an excellent diet that is high in calcium with a high calcium to phosphorous ratio, and also has ample D3 from being outside in the sun in a warm climate all day every day, and plenty of D in the diet to make D3 from. The tortoise can have no sign of MBD and be completely healthy in every way. Conversely, I can grow a smooth tortoise indoors on a poor diet with low calcium and D, and no way for the tortoise to make D3 in its skin, and this smooth tortoise can have severe MBD. I've seen many cases of both. In the past I've referred to a couple of tortoises I saw that were eating cat kibble, grocery store greens, and whatever weeds, grass and leaves they could find in their South Florida yard. These two five year old sulcatas were huge for their age at about 50-60 pounds and they were as smooth as any wild caught tortoise I've ever seen. No sign of MBD or pyramiding. Daily cat kibble was apparently doing them no harm due to good hydration. Rapid growth caused no problem because they were in the right climate and getting enough nutrition and calcium to keep up with their rate of growth. No MBD because there was calcium in the diet, and sunshine with which to form D3.

All of my various experiments over all the years reach the same conclusions as @Markw84 :
Dry growth, regardless of rate = pyramiding.
Humid and hydrated growth, regardless of rate = smooth growth.

The above conclusions have nothing to do with MBD. The tortoise can be suffering from MBD, or thriving with excellent diet, UV and sunshine, and the above two conclusions still apply. MBD could be equated to a foot injury. Doesn't matter if a tortoise has an injured foot or a perfectly fine foot. The state of injury on the foot has nothing to do with pyramiding. Likewise, the state of calcium and D3 in a given tortoise's diet, bloodstream and bones, has nothing to do with pyramiding. Pyramiding isn't made better or worse due to the tortoise's level of calcium and D3 in the blood, bones and body.


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## Cowboy_Ken

Tom said:


> Mud only works if it stays mud, in my experience. Once the mud dries, I don't see it making any difference.


I fully agree here with Tom. Also I'd like to add that as the mud dries, it will take with it some of the moisture that was intended to be introduced into the keratin. As an example of this, when stung by a wasp, hornet or honey bee, if you apply a layer of mud to said location, as the mud dries to dirt it also "sucks" the venom out of the sting location. Trust me with this or try yourself, when I was 8-9 years old I spent lots of time catching honey bees by their wings, (this impressed the girls) I was stung regularly but I'd just put mud on it to reduce the pain. I was stung enough that now I'm highly allergic to honey bee stings but I still like the ladies.


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## William Lee Kohler

Hmmmmmmm. The gist seems to be that inadequate moisture inhibits proper bone growth.


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## Cowboy_Ken

William Lee Kohler said:


> Hmmmmmmm. The gist seems to be that inadequate moisture inhibits proper bone growth.


 The gist seems to be that inadequate moisture inhibits proper KERATIN growth.


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## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> Craig:
> 
> I think we will always see minor differences in "perfectly" kept individuals, no matter what we do. We will not see the dramatic pyramiding, but will get slight pyramiding in some. I believe that may have to do with genetics, just as different individual humans have very different growing fingernails - some thick and hard, other almost paper thin. I've heard enough women complain about that in reference to keeping their nails!
> .


 
When you say genetics, what do you mean? Are you saying if both parents have severe pyramiding the chances of offspring to grow smooth are slim, Or are you saying what both parents should have looked like if cared for correctly would be genetic. When does pyramiding become genetic?


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## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> When you say genetics, what do you mean? Are you saying if both parents have severe pyramiding the chances of offspring to grow smooth are slim, Or are you saying what both parents should have looked like if cared for correctly would be genetic. When does pyramiding become genetic?


I don't know!!

I am allowing for genetics to be a possible effect. Whether inherited or random. Very possibly an epigenetic factor could be at work as well. My example of fingernail differences in humans. Not sure if that is totally inherited, but some people are pre-disposed to thin fingernails, etc.


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## the Turtle Shepherd

Cowboy_Ken said:


> ALFALFA,=This legume is very high in protein, and although a little will not harm a tortoise, it is best avoided.
> 
> BROCCOLI,=Broccoli contains goitrogens that interfere with thyroid activity and could damage the liver and kidneys. Therefore, although Broccoli is not actually toxic, you are advised to not feed it to your tortoise.
> 
> KALE,= Kale has a high calcium content and only half the oxalic acid of dandelions, making it a potentially nutritious food.
> Unfortunately, like all the brassicas, it is also high in goitrogens (which interfere with iodine uptake, resulting in thyroid problems). However, Kale also has a high iodine content, which lessens the goitrogen effect and it is therefore acceptable to feed to your tortoise in moderation, especially in winter with non-hibernating tortoises, when fresh weeds are scarce.
> SPINACH=Spinach contains a high level of calcium, but it also contains oxalic acid which binds with calcium in the diet and prevents the tortoise from absorbing and using it. In addition, it possesses a high level of calcium oxalate crystals which contribute to the formation of kidney stones. Some of the calcium oxalate is in the form of needle-shaped crystals called raphides, and when consumed in large amounts these can irritate the skin and mucous membranes in the mouth and throat.
> So although Spinach is not toxic as such, and small amounts are unlikely to cause a tortoise any great damage, given the potential it has to limit calcium intake and cause internal irritation, we do not recommend that people feed it to their tortoises.
> and the odd STRAWBERRY =
> Older leaves develop toxins, so only offer young leaves as part of a varied diet and never the fruit, unless your tortoise is a tropical fruit-eating species. Contains tannins.
> Often in the past, feeding canned dog or cat food was recommended as well as other misguided information was passed down to keepers to the point that even many zoos were caring for their tortoises incorrectly.
> One of the wonderful aspects of this tortoise community here at the forum is that we all equally share our pains and our gains regarding the raising of tortoises. For instance in regard to an idea you postulated concerning feeding wild hatchlings and this putting their growth food ratio all catty-wompus and out of sorts I need to point out that most tortoises in their native range are endangered either critically or at the least at a threatened level. This in and of itself would produce the very situation you would be providing by offering abundant food to hatchlings, (less competition for food resources=more proper food for the remaining native tortoises. Food/growth ratio all thrown out with the trash. Yet we still don't find real wild tortoises with pyramiding present.
> My conclusion is that pyramiding is caused by a lack of hydration which leads to the death of cells on the outside ring of the scutes. This repeated live/die cycle continues until the cells just keep piling up on each other creating a pyramid. Hope this helps you figure it out. Remember, I've never seen a smooth sulcata smoke tobacco, but this doesn't convince me that pyramiding is caused by tortoises that do not smoke so I won't be teaching any of mine to pick up the habit soon to remain smooth. I'm hopping spelling and grammar we're all good in this thread, it's much too long for me to proof read it all.


food for thought thanks


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## Tom

William Lee Kohler said:


> Hmmmmmmm. The gist seems to be that inadequate moisture inhibits proper bone growth.



That is not a statement I would agree with. The moisture level has little to do with bone growth. The state of the keratin has everything to do with pyramided bone under it, and the state of the keratin has to do with moisture, as Adam pointed out.

In other words: Overly dry conditions cause the keratin to pull the bone underneath it into the wrong shape.


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## Cowboy_Ken

@Tom I saw this and thought "did Tom write this?"


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## Anyfoot

Does anyone know why some torts seem to grow with a nice white thin line of keratin(think it's keratin) following the growth steadily and some torts seem to develop a crevice that is followed by keratin filling the crevice up after. The ones that don't develop the crevice seem to grow smoother. It's as though the crevice growing type have the keratin growth lagging behind. An example of both below.


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## saginawhxc

Anyfoot said:


> When you say genetics, what do you mean? Are you saying if both parents have severe pyramiding the chances of offspring to grow smooth are slim, Or are you saying what both parents should have looked like if cared for correctly would be genetic. When does pyramiding become genetic?


Even if genetics plays a part, I don't think it's pyramiding itself that is genetic, but maybe just succeptabilty to pyramiding.

Lets put it this way. It isn't the fact that many people in my family have heart disease that puts me at risk, it's the likelihood that there is something in my genetics that makes me more succeptable to heart disease.


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## Alaskamike

Anyfoot said:


> Does anyone know why some torts seem to grow with a nice white thin line of keratin(think it's keratin) following the growth steadily and some torts seem to develop a crevice that is followed by keratin filling the crevice up after. The ones that don't develop the crevice seem to grow smoother. It's as though the crevice growing type have the keratin growth lagging behind. An example of both below.
> View attachment 215185
> View attachment 215186


I've noticed this as well. Surly there is a good biological explanation, but for the life of me I can't think what it is. 

There is so much we don't know. The nature / nurture debate will continue. As it should. Even in identical twin studies , over time , there are differences both physically & emotionally that become pronounced. 

Without getting all technical - same parent siblings will react to & respond differently to diet , exercise , & environment. Our body chemistries are not identical. Our mental & psychological makups vary. Even our ability to process & extract our physical needs from food vary. 

I have a brother who is lactos intolerant ( I'm not ) and another who can't get anywhere near poison ivy ( but I can pick it up w/o a problem ). 

My mom swore all she had to do was look at a piece of cake & would gain 5lbs. Lol. 

We would like to know as much as possible to provide optimum care for our torts. And are learning all the time. But an exact science it is not.


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## Anyfoot

Alaskamike said:


> I've noticed this as well. Surly there is a good biological explanation, but for the life of me I can't think what it is.
> 
> There is so much we don't know. The nature / nurture debate will continue. As it should. Even in identical twin studies , over time , there are differences both physically & emotionally that become pronounced.
> 
> Without getting all technical - same parent siblings will react to & respond differently to diet , exercise , & environment. Our body chemistries are not identical. Our mental & psychological makups vary. Even our ability to process & extract our physical needs from food vary.
> 
> I have a brother who is lactos intolerant ( I'm not ) and another who can't get anywhere near poison ivy ( but I can pick it up w/o a problem ).
> 
> My mom swore all she had to do was look at a piece of cake & would gain 5lbs. Lol.
> 
> We would like to know as much as possible to provide optimum care for our torts. And are learning all the time. But an exact science it is not.


Thanks Mike.


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## Anyfoot

Thoughts please 

Our goal is to grow a tortoise so that the growth rate is on par with the carapace hydration so the new keratin is supple enough that it can fill up the crevices as the bone grows. Scute plates shift with the bone growth, and moist supple new keritin follows filling in the crevices left behind from the shifting of the scute plates. 

If the growth rate to hydration level is out of balance(not on par) then we have a problem. 
Growing a tort slow or fast(within reason) is ok as long as the carapace hydration is adequate enough for the faster growth. 

If we look at a wild redfoot the carapace is bowling ball smooth, some of it may be from abrasion but you can see the actual growth rings are tighter giving an overall smoother surface finish of the carapace. If you look at our CB torts, and from what I've seen the farm bred redfoots they have wider growth rings giving the effect of peaks and valleys if you zoom in close enough. 
The FB and CB when kept correctly have an overall rounded carapace shape but not the smooth surface finish of a WC. 

One way of getting a tort to pyramid is raise it in dry conditions. The faster it grows in dry conditions the steeper the pyramiding will be. We have come off PAR with growth and hydration. 

Back to does diet contribute to pyramiding. 
If I max out hydration. So if I soak daily, spray often and have humidity at 100% is it still possible to take the growth rate out of parity with hydration. I think I can feed that much protein it makes the tort grow that fast the crevices are too wide for the following amount of keratin to fill up a crevice that are too wide from extreme fast growth. No matter how supple the keratin is there isn't enough keratin to fill in a great big wide crevice, so it sets hard without levelling off to the previous keratin growth ring. In time this gives the same effect as a tort grown in dry conditions. 

If the above is correct then how would nature balance what we are thinking is such a fine line. Im thinking it can only be slow growth, and this is also why wild torts look bowling ball smooth. 

Also this is the only thought that I can think of that falls in with what @Markw84 and @cdmay 
Think. Mark believes it's about carapace hydration and cdmay believes slow growth is key, I'm thinking that both are right, and both fall into how you @Markw84 believe they actually grow. 
Also this would answer why yrs back and even now some thought pyramiding was due to excess protein. It's not the protein it's anything that is a rich food source that takes the growth rate above and beyond hydration level. Its at the opposite end of the scale as growing a tort dry. 
I'm assuming the problem is magnified with omnivores purely because herbivores are not fed protein. 
I reckon I'm seeing growth beyond my hydration capabilities causing some minor pyramiding, and it's because I'm letting my babies pig out every 10 days on protein. I've been feeding cat meat carl  For ease. 
I still believe reds eat protein as babies but naturally in the form of beetles,ants, slugs etc. 
The first 3 I raised that are smooth were fed 1 pinkie per wk each. 

Anyway. Can someone either prove me right or wrong please. 

A dry torts keratin can't keep up with any growth. 
A hydrated torts keratin can't keep up with extreme excessive growth. 
We've effectively created the same scenario but at opposite ends of the scale. 

I would never have thought torts would give me sleepless nights.


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## William Lee Kohler

Just an observation. Several years ago at the San Diego Zoo I saw some young Galaps about 12-15" size raised from their Galap herd. They were surprisingly quite pyramided. They were fed well, had plenty of hydration and sunshine. This would seem to disagree with your premises. I believe they are one of the premier Galap zoos in the world and work closely with the Conservancy.


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## Anyfoot

What do you mean fed well? 
If they were allowed to bask in the sunshine as babies, that would be the drying out end of the scale that causes pyramiding I'm thinking.


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## Markw84

Craig

Not in agreement with your hypothesis here. Pyramiding is caused by keratin growth deforming the underlying bone. The bone itself deforms and creates larger and larger valleys. In order for that to happen, the keratin growth is continuing, not being in a state to "not catch up to bone growth". Its just in dry conditions, the keratin dries too quickly, before it has filled in to its thickness yet. The stiffer, drying keratin that then forms, forces the continuing keratin growth in a downward direction. It is not that keratin growth stops, or cannot keep up. It is keratin growth drying while still forming its depth.

Now with faster growth, you have a larger, wider seam that is exposed to drying conditions, if present. So it would seem easier to pyramid a faster growing tortoise, or in another way of looking at it - it is more critical that conditions are humid and correct for a longer and more consistent basis for a faster growing tortoise.

This is where I depart a bit from @cdmay I feel wild tortoise will grow just as fast, but they do it in spurts and only in the prime time of year, which may only be 4 months or so out of the 12. Its just in those prime growing times, the conditions are correct for the tortoise to find moist, cover and places to dig in that are also moist to keep the shell well hydrated. The same conditions that allow nutritious foods to grow, also provide puddles and moist ground in which to burrow and cover. Very young tortoises are rarely encountered in the wild. That is very well because they are mostly covered up somewhere - both for protection from predators, and also, coincidentally keeping nice, moist substrate on top of their shells. In the drier times of year, they are not growing, but aestivating. No new growth to dry out. Nice tight growth rings created.


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## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> Craig
> 
> Not in agreement with your hypothesis here. Pyramiding is caused by keratin growth deforming the underlying bone. The bone itself deforms and creates larger and larger valleys. In order for that to happen, the keratin growth is continuing, not being in a state to "not catch up to bone growth". Its just in dry conditions, the keratin dries too quickly, before it has filled in to its thickness yet. The stiffer, drying keratin that then forms, forces the continuing keratin growth in a downward direction. It is not that keratin growth stops, or cannot keep up. It is keratin growth drying while still forming its depth.
> 
> Now with faster growth, you have a larger, wider seam that is exposed to drying conditions, if present. So it would seem easier to pyramid a faster growing tortoise, or in another way of looking at it - it is more critical that conditions are humid and correct for a longer and more consistent basis for a faster growing tortoise.
> 
> This is where I depart a bit from @cdmay I feel wild tortoise will grow just as fast, but they do it in spurts and only in the prime time of year, which may only be 4 months or so out of the 12. Its just in those prime growing times, the conditions are correct for the tortoise to find moist, cover and places to dig in that are also moist to keep the shell well hydrated. The same conditions that allow nutritious foods to grow, also provide puddles and moist ground in which to burrow and cover. Very young tortoises are rarely encountered in the wild. That is very well because they are mostly covered up somewhere - both for protection from predators, and also, coincidentally keeping nice, moist substrate on top of their shells. In the drier times of year, they are not growing, but aestivating. No new growth to dry out. Nice tight growth rings created.


 So what your saying is no matter how wide the new seem is there is a thin continuous layer of keratin ready to expand and fill the seem? 

I understand that wild torts will only grow when conditions permit them to. But what about the actual time its growing for. For example, lets say a wild tort only has 6 months per year in ideal conditions and a captive tort has 12 months. Are you suggesting that both torts will grow at the same pace during the wild torts 6 month ideal conditions period. If yes, why are wild torts bowling ball smooth and captive bred are not? Is it purely abrasion on the wild carapace.


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## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> So what your saying is no matter how wide the new seem is there is a thin continuous layer of keratin ready to expand and fill the seem?
> 
> I understand that wild torts will only grow when conditions permit them to. But what about the actual time its growing for. For example, lets say a wild tort only has 6 months per year in ideal conditions and a captive tort has 12 months. Are you suggesting that both torts will grow at the same pace during the wild torts 6 month ideal conditions period. If yes, why are wild torts bowling ball smooth and captive bred are not? Is it purely abrasion on the wild carapace.


Yes. Keratin grows in response to the expanding bone growth beneath. The seams of the scutes are not aligned at all with the seams, or sutures of the bone plates. That give the tortoise shell much more strength. But the areolae of the scute is "attached" to the underlying bone at that point only for the scute. So as the bone growth expands, seams are created between the scutes. Keratin fills those seams as a natural part of normal growth. Depending upon the scute and its location, you will see different parts of the scute develop dramatically different seam width. Especially with the costals. The attached areolae part is towards the top of the scute, as the lower part of the scute area in the costals is mostly fontanelles and open, without bone, the first few years of growth for a tortoise. So the top seam of a costal is very narrow, but the lower seams are extremely wide. If we look at this we can see that since there is no underlying bone there yet, it is an area that will be very resistant to pyramiding in a very young tortoise. There is no bone to deform yet! But there is plenty of new keratin that will always develop, even in the widest of seams.

I am also saying that I believe a wild tortoise in time of plenty will grow just as fast as a fast growing captive. They simply spend a good deal of the year not growing at all, or very slowly. Good nutritious food is only avialable for sulcatas, as an example, perhaps 4 months or so out of the year. In his book The Crying Tortoise, Bernard Devaux cites the growth rates of young tortoises from his extensive study of wild tortoise in the Sahel. He states growth vaires widely depending upon year and climate, but an "average" would be to expect a 1 yr old to weigh 1 kg, a 2yr old 3 kg and 3 yr old 6kg. So cosidering this gorwth mainly occurs in the peak 4 months of rainy season, that is certainly on pace with a very fast grown captive grown in optimal conditions 12 months a year. Interestingly, he also talks about the very young tortoise staying mostly buried in moist soil, and often in groups. Continuing this behavior until about 6 kg at which time they will start digging burrows of their own.

So why do I believe wild tortoise will be "bowling ball smooth"? Because the same conditions they need for smooth growth - good hydration and protection from drying carapace - is also the same conditions that produce nutritious foods. So they grow only in the "right" conditions. When conditions are more drying, they are not growing. Look at areas where the expansion of agriculture and reserviors has offered tortoise access to foods in teh dryer times of years. Or tortoise in their natural range, yet kept in holding pens or yards and fed through the dryer times. There you will see pyramided tortoises. The difference is the availability of growth foods in a time of year there would normally not be any nutritious foods - which is also the dry times.


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## Tom

William Lee Kohler said:


> Just an observation. Several years ago at the San Diego Zoo I saw some young Galaps about 12-15" size raised from their Galap herd. They were surprisingly quite pyramided. They were fed well, had plenty of hydration and sunshine. This would seem to disagree with your premises. I believe they are one of the premier Galap zoos in the world and work closely with the Conservancy.



Neither that zoo, nor any other that I've found, knows how to grow a smooth tortoise. Nor does the Conservancy. Those people are learning from us.


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> Anyway. Can someone either prove me right or wrong please.



There is some data to demonstrate the speed of wild growth for a few temperate species, but not a whole lot for other species. I make two points about growth in the wild:
1. We really don't have any idea what is "fast" or "slow" for most species. We only have the growth rate of a few that were studied during a given time frame, with those corresponding wild conditions.
2. Wild conditions are very harsh, and most young growing tortoises can't even survive long enough to make it to maturity. Point being: Wild growth rates, whatever they are, are not necessarily what we should be striving for. Wild conditions are barely survivable in most cases, so we should expect to see slower growth rates than what we'd see in captive conditions where they are disease and predator free and have free access to fresh water and good food.

More points to ponder:
1. Are we concerned with growth rates for other pets? Anyone deliberately try to control the growth of their leopards geckos with food deprivation? Seems like this discussion comes up with tortoises solely due to carapace appearance.
2. For your above expressed assertions to be accurate, you are going to have to explain all the _smooth_ 50-60 pound two and three year old sulcatas in the world. They aren't being fed excessive mounts of protein, and their keratin seems to do just fine at keeping up with their growth rate.

I think our efforts should be on growing our tortoises healthy. How fast they grow has never concerned me. I was taught and once believed that "slow" growth was "better" for them. I was wrong and so were the people who taught me that. The rate of growth can be on the faster side, or the slower side, for a variety of reasons, many of which we probably don't even know about, but I think the emphasis should be on health, not growth rate.


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## Anyfoot

@Tom @Markw84 I need to read your posts and think about them before I answer. It's my daughters 16th tonight so I'm a bit preoccupied. 
I just wanted to show you this redfoot. It's now 6 months old(just over) and was fed protein from 3 months old. 
This tortoise has had UVB from wk 1. I soak every day(missed the odd day but never missed 2 days on the bounce) humidity in my tort house never drops below 90%. I spray them twice a day, I have good drainage in there table so I can give the enclosure a very good spray without worrying about anything getting stagnant. I actually make sure I spray each and every individual baby every time. There are no hides other than masses of moss that they sleep in under palm plants. The idea was to force them into feeling insecure and want to dig in under the moss. Some dig in and some just lay on the moss. 
If it's assumed that as long as I keep my torts from drying out that they won't pyramid then why is this little guy not smooth. I can only think of 2 things. Excessive growth or they have become that tame that they don't hide away with moist moss on top of the carapace any more. 
There is no heat source anywhere near these babies, so artificial drying of the carapace is just not an option. 
Btw. I have no preference to grow my torts slow or fast, I just want to find out if it is possible to give them too a rich diet that it can cause pyramiding.


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> @Tom @Markw84 I need to read your posts and think about them before I answer. It's my daughters 16th tonight so I'm a bit preoccupied.
> I just wanted to show you this redfoot. It's now 6 months old(just over) and was fed protein from 3 months old.
> This tortoise has had UVB from wk 1. I soak every day(missed the odd day but never missed 2 days on the bounce) humidity in my tort house never drops below 90%. I spray them twice a day, I have good drainage in there table so I can give the enclosure a very good spray without worrying about anything getting stagnant. I actually make sure I spray each and every individual baby every time. There are no hides other than masses of moss that they sleep in under palm plants. The idea was to force them into feeling insecure and want to dig in under the moss. Some dig in and some just lay on the moss.
> If it's assumed that as long as I keep my torts from drying out that they won't pyramid then why is this little guy not smooth. I can only think of 2 things. Excessive growth or they have become that tame that they don't hide away with moist moss on top of the carapace any more.
> There is no heat source anywhere near these babies, so artificial drying of the carapace is just not an option.
> Btw. I have no preference to grow my torts slow or fast, I just want to find out if it is possible to give them too a rich diet that it can cause pyramiding.



What you are seeing there is normal. For the past 10 years or so, I've been raising tortoises in groups. I've been watching other people's groups too. Seems to be a ratio of one or two to ten, so 10-20%, show some mild pyramiding like that even in "ideal" conditions with the right foods. I'm speaking about the species that most commonly pyramid here. Sulctas, leopards, stars and RFs.

This is a phenomenon I cannot explain. In my cases, it is usually a slower growing tortoise that does this, but my largest star female also did it too. So in my star group, one of the smaller males has some of that mild pyramiding and my largest female too. None of them are perfect because I like them to be outside a lot in large enclosures as they grow, and my climate is just so dry here, but those two show the most pyramiding. It makes no sense. They were grown in the same enclosures with the same food and same routine.


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## Anyfoot

If a tort in the wild grows for 6 months of the yr but at the same growth rate as a captive tort does for 12 months a year then both torts would have the same width of growth rings, just the captive tort grows twice the size within the 12 month period than the wild tort would in a 6 month period. To me and you they would look the same, but they don't. 
I've just spent a while looking at some wild torts and comparing them to one of my 3 1/2 yr olds.
How does that bowling ball smooth look happen. I can only think of three options. 

1. They grow that slow that the growth rings are very tight giving a smooth bowling ball look. 
2. There is excessive abrasion on the carapace that rubs the growth rings so all peaks and Valleys become the same height. 
3. The surface of the carapace degrades over time, the actual hardened keratin becomes powdery on the surface and smooths off the carapace. 

Some photos below to compare wild redfoots to my smooth redfoot. I'm actually thinking you are right Mark. If you look at some of these less worn carapaces the growth rings are just as wide as my torts. So that would rule out number 1 above. 

Tom, we know there are plenty of smooth tortoises around nowadays. For those many 50lb 2 yr old smooth sullies out there, there are also torts that are not as smooth. What I'm trying to say is if you raised a clutch of 20 babies, 15 may be smooth at 2 yr old and at 50lb, but the other 5 may show signs of pyramiding. It's irrelevant in the ratios within a clutch of how many are smooth and are not. The recipe is not right if we do not get 100% of out torts to grow smooth IMO. 
Also these 50lb 2 yr old sullies weren't fed protein. Could it be the overfeeding of protein that can tip the growth out of balance beyond a tort that is kept in perfect hydrated conditions. 

For now I'm going to feed protein once a month instead of 3 times, just to be safe. However I've gone full circle with my thoughts again after talking to you two. I don't think any amount of soaking,spaying or high humidity can compensate for a tort being dug in under moist substrate, I also don't think a baby should be exposed to anything that can dry the carapace out. Only problem with this is it suggests all tort species eat bugs as babies to compensate for no D3 from the sun. That said if a baby tort is burried in moist substrate for long periods and has a 1hrs stint in the sun it may not dry the carapace off for long enough to do any damage. Maybe we need to look at how they rest and only offer access to bask for 1hr per day. (This is also why I wanted to know if torts grow when at rest and not when active). 
I need to look at ways to get my tame baby redfoots to want to dig in when at rest. 
Anyway. Here are some photos of wild redfoots to compare to.


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> If a tort in the wild grows for 6 months of the yr but at the same growth rate as a captive tort does for 12 months a year then both torts would have the same width of growth rings, just the captive tort grows twice the size within the 12 month period than the wild tort would in a 6 month period.



One of the main complications in this discussion and in figuring out this whole thing is that the details, like what you've mentioned above, will vary greatly by species and region. Some tortoises might only be active and growing for 6 months a year, but others, like russians in some areas, are only active for 12 weeks, while some tropical species near the equator have favorable conditions year round.



Anyfoot said:


> How does that bowling ball smooth look happen. I can only think of three options.
> 
> 1. They grow that slow that the growth rings are very tight giving a smooth bowling ball look.
> 2. There is excessive abrasion on the carapace that rubs the growth rings so all peaks and Valleys become the same height.
> 3. The surface of the carapace degrades over time, the actual hardened keratin becomes powdery on the surface and smooths off the carapace.



Time, weather, sun, and abrasion all serve to smooth out the carapace. I would speculate that this usually happens faster in the wild than it will in captivity, due to our efforts to protect our charges. You can see this with many sulcatas raised in the Phoenix, AZ area. Testudo species there too. Tortoises in that area spend a lot of time underground to escape the intense heat.



Anyfoot said:


> Tom, we know there are plenty of smooth tortoises around nowadays. For those many 50lb 2 yr old smooth sullies out there, there are also torts that are not as smooth. What I'm trying to say is if you raised a clutch of 20 babies, 15 may be smooth at 2 yr old and at 50lb, but the other 5 may show signs of pyramiding. It's irrelevant in the ratios within a clutch of how many are smooth and are not. The recipe is not right if we do not get 100% of out torts to grow smooth IMO.



100% is a lofty goal that I share with you. Discussions like this, and arguments too, will hopefully reveal clues as to how to achieve this. I believe there are many factors at play in why some pyramid and some don't when kept in the same conditions. My top two guesses are stress, and individual habits. Some tortoises spend more time in drier conditions, while others are more content to hide out in the humid hide.

Hard to test the stress thing. I'd have to raise 10 all by themselves in individual enclosures and several groups of 10 to get a good picture of this. I don't have the time or space for that at this point in my life.

Individual habits though can be observed by each of us. Anecdotally, that is exactly what I've done. The ones that hang out under the heat lamps pyramid more, and the ones that hang out in the humid hide pyramid less, as a general rule.

Given all the variables, I don't know that 100% is achievable in a practical sense.



Anyfoot said:


> Also these 50lb 2 yr old sullies weren't fed protein. Could it be the overfeeding of protein that can tip the growth out of balance beyond a tort that is kept in perfect hydrated conditions.



Yes, actually, in some cases they were. I know of one guy in FL that allowed his tortoises to eat cat kibble every day. They also ate weeds and grass. Bert Langerwerf fed his sulcatas bits of turkey leftover from the band saw. Bones and all. I have one friend who lets his sulcatas eat dog poo. He figures they eat it in the wild and his dogs aren't medicated, so why not? Others are fed a fair amount of Mazuri which has a good amount of protein in it. I know of one sulcata breeder with a massive herd that feeds bails of alfalfa almost exclusively. In the wild, it has been reported that dying animals go underground to escape the intense African heat, and wild sulcatas opportunistically eat their carcasses.

So yes, many of them are eating protein. Whether or not they _should _eat it in captivity is another question.



Anyfoot said:


> For now I'm going to feed protein once a month instead of 3 times, just to be safe. However I've gone full circle with my thoughts again after talking to you two. I don't think any amount of soaking,spaying or high humidity can compensate for a tort being dug in under moist substrate, I also don't think a baby should be exposed to anything that can dry the carapace out. Only problem with this is it suggests all tort species eat bugs as babies to compensate for no D3 from the sun. That said if a baby tort is burried in moist substrate for long periods and has a 1hrs stint in the sun it may not dry the carapace off for long enough to do any damage. Maybe we need to look at how they rest and only offer access to bask for 1hr per day. (This is also why I wanted to know if torts grow when at rest and not when active).



Your ideas in this paragraph may work for a RF. I don't have enough experience with the species to offer a guess. But I can tell you that an hour of basking warmth per day will not be enough for most species. You are making a lot of guesses about how much sun they need. In ideal circumstances, they can probably get enough D3 from 15 minutes of sun per week. But limiting them to this amount, or one hour per day, ignores the other benefits offered by the sun. They also get warmth, and the light spectrum from the sun usually encourages appetite too. I'll grant that sunshine might be less important for "forest" species, but to limit most other species to one hour of "sun" per day, would be detrimental in my experience.


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## Anyfoot

So when this yrs wild Mediterranean species hibernate, will the fontanels carry on closing during hibernation or is there a complete shutdown of all development.


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> So when this yrs wild Mediterranean species hibernate, will the fontanels carry on closing during hibernation or is there a complete shutdown of all development.



I cannot cite any studies, but I'll fathom a guess from what I know of biology.

During brumation or hibernation everything shuts down. Sort of a dormancy. The heart still beats and lungs still exchange gasses, but at a much slower rate than normal. Without food to convert into energy and "building blocks", I don't see how growth of any kind could be taking place during this time.


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## Anyfoot

Tom said:


> I cannot cite any studies, but I'll fathom a guess from what I know of biology.
> 
> During brumation or hibernation everything shuts down. Sort of a dormancy. The heart still beats and lungs still exchange gasses, but at a much slower rate than normal. Without food to convert into energy and "building blocks", I don't see how growth of any kind could be taking place during this time.


Makes sense.


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## Anyfoot

Tom said:


> Your ideas in this paragraph may work for a RF. I don't have enough experience with the species to offer a guess. But I can tell you that an hour of basking warmth per day will not be enough for most species. You are making a lot of guesses about how much sun they need. In ideal circumstances, they can probably get enough D3 from 15 minutes of sun per week. But limiting them to this amount, or one hour per day, ignores the other benefits offered by the sun. They also get warmth, and the light spectrum from the sun usually encourages appetite too. I'll grant that sunshine might be less important for "forest" species, but to limit most other species to one hour of "sun" per day, would be detrimental in my experience.



Good morning @Tom, with my comment on limiting the amount of basking time for let's say one of the med species.
I wasnt suggesting we take away the heat or light with the limiting basking times, For example in a set up you would have an ambient temp with a fluorescent uvb tube aswell as a uvb basking light. So you can imitate a basking spot for a period of time without risking all the other needs from lighting. 

When we go on our family holidays, most times it's either Spain or Greece. The last few years during our family holidays Ive gone off in search of a wild tort. I've never seen one yet. Every time I speak to the locals they say early in morning or late in the evening. The last holiday in Zakynthos I went looking and failed again, it was around dinner time. One of the turtle experts on the island told me that I would struggle to see one after 8am until dusk, its around 30/35deg c most mid days.
So from that I assumed that the med species come out early in the morning to bask and warm up, then as the daily ambient temp rises they seek shelter in bushes(olive and pine forests) where it's shaded and a bit more humid in the leaf litter, then come out again later when the sun is cooling off, probably to feed again or find a mate or nest, maybe even to bask again before sundown. 

There was one guy who told me the only way your going to see one in the day(this was in Majorca) is to listen for them rustling in the undergrowth, this again was in an olive and pine forest. 

I'm guessing the heat of the day makes some species retreat to moist microclimates, and with other species like redfoots it's a higher predatory threat that makes them retreat. It's just a guess, but this would coincide with clutch sizes too. 
My point is do they bask as much as we think they do as babies? Is nature one way or the other making all species of babies spend most of their time in the undergrowth. If so, how we imitate that is going to pose a problem because they get tame and spend more time out in the open drying off. I've noticed with my redfoot babies I can soak them(I always wet their carapace too when soaking) put them back in the enclosure and within 30 to 60 minutes the carapace is dry again. This is with 90% minimum humidity and no heat source close enough to dry them off. Then I think, how do the baby med species manage in the wild with such low humidity, the 30/35deg c heat on Spanish and Greek islands is a very very dry heat. They must hide away in the undergrowth for vast amounts of time is what I'm thinking. This overcomes the low humidity and dry arid days.


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> Good morning @Tom, with my comment on limiting the amount of basking time for let's say one of the med species.
> I wasnt suggesting we take away the heat or light with the limiting basking times, For example in a set up you would have an ambient temp with a fluorescent uvb tube aswell as a uvb basking light. So you can imitate a basking spot for a period of time without risking all the other needs from lighting.
> 
> When we go on our family holidays, most times it's either Spain or Greece. The last few years during our family holidays Ive gone off in search of a wild tort. I've never seen one yet. Every time I speak to the locals they say early in morning or late in the evening. The last holiday in Zakynthos I went looking and failed again, it was around dinner time. One of the turtle experts on the island told me that I would struggle to see one after 8am until dusk, its around 30/35deg c most mid days.
> So from that I assumed that the med species come out early in the morning to bask and warm up, then as the daily ambient temp rises they seek shelter in bushes(olive and pine forests) where it's shaded and a bit more humid in the leaf litter, then come out again later when the sun is cooling off, probably to feed again or find a mate or nest, maybe even to bask again before sundown.
> 
> There was one guy who told me the only way your going to see one in the day(this was in Majorca) is to listen for them rustling in the undergrowth, this again was in an olive and pine forest.
> 
> I'm guessing the heat of the day makes some species retreat to moist microclimates, and with other species like redfoots it's a higher predatory threat that makes them retreat. It's just a guess, but this would coincide with clutch sizes too.
> My point is do they bask as much as we think they do as babies? Is nature one way or the other making all species of babies spend most of their time in the undergrowth. If so, how we imitate that is going to pose a problem because they get tame and spend more time out in the open drying off. I've noticed with my redfoot babies I can soak them(I always wet their carapace too when soaking) put them back in the enclosure and within 30 to 60 minutes the carapace is dry again. This is with 90% minimum humidity and no heat source close enough to dry them off. Then I think, how do the baby med species manage in the wild with such low humidity, the 30/35deg c heat on Spanish and Greek islands is a very very dry heat. They must hide away in the undergrowth for vast amounts of time is what I'm thinking. This overcomes the low humidity and dry arid days.



And Good morning to you! 

Good observations. We know they hide a lot, and survive by doing so. In observing my own baby leopards in an over grown weedy pen: They would completely disappear to the casual observer, but if I took the time to find them, they frequently had a little patch of sunshine in all the undergrowth. You literally couldn't see them from 1 meter away, but yet they were still in there basking. Of course this is temperature dependent. Once they are warmed up and ambient is up, then they would avoid the mid day sun like most any other species.

The key element there is that at any time, they could find sun and warm up throughout the day. In summer, they don't need to bask. In winter, with our cooler over night lows and rain, I see tortoises coming out of the cold shade patches and basing more often. Our tortoises, most species anyway, need the ability to thermoregulate. My tropical species will still bask even when ambient is above 32C. Keeping them at 26-27 and only offering a basking spot for an hour a day would be a problem.

I tried offering warm ambient temps in lieu of a basking area, and it didn't work well for sulcatas. It slowed their growth tremendously and didn't affect pyramiding one way or the other. Their clutch mates were raised more conventionally and grew much better.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/2015-growth-experiment.119874/


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## Anyfoot

I know you were talking about the thermoregulating side of the sun then, but do you think the UV rays have any benefits on the carapace or not. I was told they can only absorb D3 through the skin and not the carapace, is that correct?


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> I know you were talking about the thermoregulating side of the sun then, but do you think the UV rays have any benefits on the carapace or not. I was told they can only absorb D3 through the skin and not the carapace, is that correct?



I don't think anyone knows the answer to this. The prevailing idea is that D3 synthesis happens in the skin, but I cannot say definitively that it doesn't happen in the carapace too. Remember those squiggly lines we talk about from time to time? Those may or may not be related to D3 synthesis. I don't think anyone really knows.

In any case, how does this relate to our discussion? Whether they make UV in the skin or carapace, or both, they still need heat, right? An hour a day of UV should be plenty for any species, but they still need the carapace desiccating heat in order to warm up their core and function.


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## Anyfoot

Tom said:


> I don't think anyone knows the answer to this. The prevailing idea is that D3 synthesis happens in the skin, but I cannot say definitively that it doesn't happen in the carapace too. Remember those squiggly lines we talk about from time to time? Those may or may not be related to D3 synthesis. I don't think anyone really knows.
> 
> In any case, how does this relate to our discussion? Whether they make UV in the skin or carapace, or both, they still need heat, right? An hour a day of UV should be plenty for any species, but they still need the carapace desiccating heat in order to warm up their core and function.


My next question was going to be, can they thermoregulate in the shade? For example shade at 30deg c and deep shade at 25deg c. 
I think you already answered that above.


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## Markw84

some thoughts...

I do currently believe that the majority of the time, especially for young tortoises, is spent dug into moist substrate, or deep in plant cover, or leaf litter. I believe this is a primary way the shell hydration is maintained in the wild. The amount of time needed for basking as far as D3 production is quite small. Pre-vitamin D3 is created in the skin (not in shell keratin) in a matter of minutes with UVB exposure. However, the conversion of Pre-d to D3 takes considerable time that is sped up considerable with heated skin. At temps around 98°f, full conversion in the skin will take around 8 hours. At lower temperatures, much longer. However, once the levels of D3 in the blood are adequate, the life of D3 is quite long and they can go several weeks without need for more D3 production.

This does not address thermoregulation for overall metabolism. They do need to maintain a core body temp of what seems to be in the mid 80°'s and above for proper metabolism. In active growing periods, this would be desirable for at least 10 hours a day in my opinion. In the wild, I would not see any reason why a tortoise would not be able to maintain this body temp in the active growing times of the year. Most of that time would be in cover where they are protecting themselves from overheating.

When we are talking about basking, it is not just heat. The other consideration is "light". I believe light, and light color are key triggers for activity and well being for tortoises. They do not have 4 cones in their eyes for no reason. Not only do they use the wider wavelength of light (including UVA) to see and discriminate foods and probably suitable resting spots, but it also triggers activity like breeding, egg laying, and in some species, hibernation/brumation. How many people often wonder why their tortoise seems to "know" when its time to hibernate, even though temperatures are consistent? I believe it is the color temperature and UV content of the light that is shifting with the season. Sunlight has a much different color and UV content with the seasons. The decrease in UV intensity and the shift to a more "red" color may indeed be a key trigger that it is time to lay eggs for star tortoises, or hibernate for a Russian tortoise. I believe most keepers have lighting in their tortoise enclosures that are way too red and not enough blue and UVA to provide a proper environment. I am of the mindset to provide good 5500 - 6000K lighting with plenty of UVA and then offer plenty of shaded plant hides. Without this, our tortoises are forced to stay out in the open more than they would normally prefer, seeking out the light intensity that would seem more "normal". In the wild, the bright sunlight creates a much different spectrum allowing for a different look to the shaded hides they would normally prefer and seek out. I am becoming more interested in providing the proper light and heat to create the proper shaded hide more so than the basking spot.


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## Markw84

Craig

Along this line of thought, if I were keeping redfoot tortoises, I would not go for a lower lighting as many seem to propose using a 5.0 instead of a 12.0 UVB bulb. I would go for as I describe above - trying to create sunlight, but instead give A LOT of shaded cover. Perhaps it is the lower light levels it is assumed the redfoot prefers that forces them to bask more than "normal". Seeking out the level of blues and UVA they are programmed for.

I have had some interesting results with my aquatic hatchlings this year. Because of all my work with lighting for my stars, I went ahead and also put a 12.0 HO UVB tube above my hatchling turtle basking area, and extended it over a good portion of their tank. I always provide a lot of real and artificial plants in the water as hatchlings are very cryptic and prefer to stay hidden in plant cover with the ability to just poke their heads up for a breath. I also used a 65 watt incandescent for heat basking. Basically set up the same way as my stars. The difference was immediate and apparent. My hatchlings used to spend a good deal of time up on the basking area under the light - splashing into the water when I approached. Seemed normal. But I was always a bit frustrated on how prone they were to the rear margins of their shell curling upward a bit. As aquatics don't pyramid as a bone problem, I did though come to believe the curling was a similar thing as the new keratin growth dried too quickly. Since an aquatic lays new keratin along the entire underside of the scute, this would then force the edges upwards a bit.

WELL... This year NONE show this at all. And they bask on the basking platform probably less than 20% of the time I used to see hatchlings basking. They instead bask hanging in the plants at the water surface. They have become true cryptic baskers which I believe is far more natural. They rarely come out of the water exposing themselves on the basking rock, instead stay nice and secure (and wet) hanging in the water plants. They still have equally become more "tame" and rush over to me for food when I enter. They just do not bask and dry out as much.

I am believing the light we create is causing a lot of our tortoises to bask unnaturally - staying out exposed more than would be "normal". Probably especially redfoots! In an effort to give them the lower "forest" level of light, we are changing the whole environment of the hidden areas they would prefer and making that too dark.


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## Gillian M

A very interesting thread.

Thanks for posting, @Anyfoot .


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## Anyfoot

Mark, I've been looking into changing my whole lighting system in the tort house. I'm not happy with what I have, most plants won't grow which proves the lighting is wrong. 
Bare in mind my tort house is 300sq ft and about 10ft high. 
I was considering this lighting and then try and grow a low lying canopy, basically copy how I imagine the rain forest is, the bright sunlight grows a canopy in turn creating a darkish forest floor. 
What do you think to this lighting? Or is there something better I can use. 
I contacted Arcadia a while back about these and still not had a reply. 

http://arcadia-reptile.com/superzoo-t5/


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## Anyfoot

I have one last question for you two Tom and Mark, I know my threads always go off topic but everything is connected, everything leads on to something else. 

If a tort hatches at the beginning of a 3 month monsoon season how does it bask for that first 3 month period.


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## Markw84

I like what I see there! I like the high levels of 400-500nm light as well as the high UVs. That matches the spectral curve of sunlight much more. In a large enclosure like you have I would go with that, and then create you shaded areas below. I thing you will find plants will do much better with that as well.


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## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> I have one last question for you two Tom and Mark, I know my threads always go off topic but everything is connected, everything leads on to something else.
> 
> If a tort hatches at the beginning of a 3 month monsoon season how does it bask for that first 3 month period.


Not sure I understand your question... There is plenty of UV available in the monsoon season. The temps are high. Staying hidden in plant cover, they can eat, hide, get enough UV, stay warm enough, all without moving much at all! As far as D3, there is plenty of UVB. Part of my point in the above posts, is in nature, less light does not necessarily mean a different distribution of wavelength of light. Simply less intensity. Still the UV and blues there more so than when we "create" lower light levels artificially.


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## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> Not sure I understand your question... There is plenty of UV available in the monsoon season. The temps are high. Staying hidden in plant cover, they can eat, hide, get enough UV, stay warm enough, all without moving much at all! As far as D3, there is plenty of UVB. Part of my point in the above posts, is in nature, less light does not necessarily mean a different distribution of wavelength of light. Simply less intensity. Still the UV and blues there more so than when we "create" lower light levels artificially.


You answered what I wanted to hear. 
They don't need to endure intense hot sun to absorb D3. Even with heavy rain, an overcast sky and whilst hidden in foliage they can still absorb UVB rays. Is that correct?


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> You answered what I wanted to hear.
> They don't need to endure intense hot sun to absorb D3. Even with heavy rain, an overcast sky and whilst hidden in foliage they can still absorb UVB rays. Is that correct?



The answer is yes, but to a degree. They wouldn't be getting a whole lot of D3 on a cloudy rainy day while hidden in the bushes, but there are plenty of sunny days even in monsoon season. Our tortoises do not need hours of strong UV every day. They only really need 20-30 minutes once or twice a week. And they can go weeks without any UV because they store it in their fat cells during the times they are producing it.


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## Markw84

Tom said:


> The answer is yes, but to a degree. They wouldn't be getting a whole lot of D3 on a cloudy rainy day while hidden in the bushes, but there are plenty of sunny days even in monsoon season. Our tortoises do not need hours of strong UV every day. They only really need 20-30 minutes once or twice a week. And they can go weeks without any UV because they store it in their fat cells during the times they are producing it.


Not to knit-pick, but it is not believed reptiles and in particular tortoises store D3 in fat cells. Tortoises do not store much energy and have as much need for fat cells as mammals. They store energy reserves in the form of glycogen in the bloodstream and in cells. That is why tortoise do not get fat. There is also no room for fat in a confined tortoise shell. D3 is created in the skin, then carried by the bloodstream to the liver. There it is converted to calcediol. This is the actual substance they check for in a blood sample to check vitamin D levels. It has a life of a few weeks in the bloodstream. Some of this is then carried in the bloodstream to the kidneys and is converted to an active hormone calcetriol, and is the primary agent needed for proper calcium metabolism. This is carried in the bloodstream. It actually governs the uptake of calcium from the gut, or if the diet is very low in calcium, uptake from bones to compensate. Calcediol is also being shown to be a valuable compound for the vital function of many organs.

On a side note - also a misconception many seem to have is tortoises that hibernate (brumate) need to store up fat for the winter. And you must watch to be sure the tortoise does not loose too much weight during hibernation meaning it is using fat stores. When in fact tortoises do not store fat as an energy reserve, as it is glycogen they store and use as energy reserves. During hibernation (brumation) a tortoise should virtually loose no weight at all except a small amount due to water loss. The small amount of energy they need during hibernation is provided by the glycogen stores. In aquatic turtles, the glycogen is also serving as a bit of an antifreeze as an added benefit!


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## Tom

Markw84 said:


> Not to knit-pick, but it is not believed reptiles and in particular tortoises store D3 in fat cells. Tortoises do not store much energy and have as much need for fat cells as mammals. They store energy reserves in the form of glycogen in the bloodstream and in cells. That is why tortoise do not get fat. There is also no room for fat in a confined tortoise shell. D3 is created in the skin, then carried by the bloodstream to the liver. There it is converted to calcediol. This is the actual substance they check for in a blood sample to check vitamin D levels. It has a life of a few weeks in the bloodstream. Some of this is then carried in the bloodstream to the kidneys and is converted to an active hormone calcetriol, and is the primary agent needed for proper calcium metabolism. This is carried in the bloodstream. It actually governs the uptake of calcium from the gut, or if the diet is very low in calcium, uptake from bones to compensate. Calcediol is also being shown to be a valuable compound for the vital function of many organs.
> 
> On a side note - also a misconception many seem to have is tortoises that hibernate (brumate) need to store up fat for the winter. And you must watch to be sure the tortoise does not loose too much weight during hibernation meaning it is using fat stores. When in fact tortoises do not store fat as an energy reserve, as it is glycogen they store and use as energy reserves. During hibernation (brumation) a tortoise should virtually loose no weight at all except a small amount due to water loss. The small amount of energy they need during hibernation is provided by the glycogen stores. In aquatic turtles, the glycogen is also serving as a bit of an antifreeze as an added benefit!



Thank you for the clarification. I read the info about D3 being fat soluble and stored in fat somewhere many years ago. Seemed reasonable enough, but like so many other tortoise related things, what we read isn't always accurate or true.


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## Anyfoot

What do you guys think about heat from below, could it do any damage to the torts? 
Last winter I put a small 40w tube heater under my hatchling enclosure because temps in the tort house were dropping to around 25deg c during the night, outside was around -5deg c. The heat rising from below through approx 8" depth of substrate and 2" of drainage(10" total) enticed the babies to fully dig into the substrate. I only had to do it for a couple of months. No harm came to the babies that I know of. Could this be a safe method to get babies to dig in or is there a chance of long term internal damage?


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## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> What do you guys think about heat from below, could it do any damage to the torts?
> Last winter I put a small 40w tube heater under my hatchling enclosure because temps in the tort house were dropping to around 25deg c during the night, outside was around -5deg c. The heat rising from below through approx 8" depth of substrate and 2" of drainage(10" total) enticed the babies to fully dig into the substrate. I only had to do it for a couple of months. No harm came to the babies that I know of. Could this be a safe method to get babies to dig in or is there a chance of long term internal damage?


I don't like heating an enclosure from below and the use of heat mats for primary heat for a tortoise to thermoregulate. I do not believe they are "programmed" to sense when they are getting too hot on the plastron. We have seen too many examples of damaged plastrons from a tortoise sitting on a heat mat. I would never want the substrate to be warmer than perhaps 30°C and used as a heat source for the tortoise to warm core body temps.

However, a warmer substrate at night is not unnatural in "wild" conditions as the air temps cool. If you are using a small heater to simply get the substrate up to no warmer than your enclosure ambient, I would think that a viable situation. It would be a natural occurrence for ground temps to be higher than air temps overnight. A warmer ground temp may indeed trigger a higher response to dig in. I would think that a good "experiment" to see if you notice any differences.


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## Anyfoot

When I used the tube the actual tube got to about 60deg c. I forgot to mention this was under the enclosure attached to 4x4" wood so there was also a 4" air gap between the enclosure and heat tube. The actual substrate was getting to around 30c. I was conscious of temps. It was a quick fix for the situation I found myself in. 
Maybe controlling the tube on a stat with the stat probe under the drainage stones so the torts can't get to the probe would work. I could control substrate temp at 27/28c hopefully.


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> When I used the tube the actual tube got to about 60deg c. I forgot to mention this was under the enclosure attached to 4x4" wood so there was also a 4" air gap between the enclosure and heat tube. The actual substrate was getting to around 30c. I was conscious of temps. It was a quick fix for the situation I found myself in.
> Maybe controlling the tube on a stat with the stat probe under the drainage stones so the torts can't get to the probe would work. I could control substrate temp at 27/28c hopefully.


Used the way you are using it, with 10" of substrate, a 4" air gap, and careful observation of temps, I see no problem with it.

When people stick a heat mat on the bottom of a glass tank and then use an inch of substrate over it, you are asking for a burn.


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## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> Yes. Keratin grows in response to the expanding bone growth beneath. The seams of the scutes are not aligned at all with the seams, or sutures of the bone plates. That give the tortoise shell much more strength. But the areolae of the scute is "attached" to the underlying bone at that point only for the scute. So as the bone growth expands, seams are created between the scutes. Keratin fills those seams as a natural part of normal growth. Depending upon the scute and its location, you will see different parts of the scute develop dramatically different seam width. Especially with the costals. The attached areolae part is towards the top of the scute, as the lower part of the scute area in the costals is mostly fontanelles and open, without bone, the first few years of growth for a tortoise. So the top seam of a costal is very narrow, but the lower seams are extremely wide. If we look at this we can see that since there is no underlying bone there yet, it is an area that will be very resistant to pyramiding in a very young tortoise. There is no bone to deform yet! But there is plenty of new keratin that will always develop, even in the widest of seams.


 Still a part of this paragraph that I'm not fully understanding Mark so hoping you or Tom can put it to bed for me.
If in a young tortoise there are fontanelles on the lower part of the coastal scutes. Then how come I'm seeing some stacking on the first 9 I raised on the coastal, they look a lot more stacked than the vertebral scutes do. Bare in mind these 9 had sunlight through a window which I believe has played a major roll in how they are growing(I've basically created a basking spot for them to dry out )
Is it possible there is a natural stacking and then as the tort grows the fontanelles fill in and it actually stretches the stacked keratin out smoother. I noticed at one yr old there is still flexing on the coastals. You have to push quite hard but there is definitely some flexing going on, I assume this is because there is no fully underlying bone yet.
I'll try and get a good photo of the coastals tonight after work.


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## Anyfoot

Just wanted to add how I'm imagining how they will and are growing. 
They start off growing smooth, then the scute plates(areole areas) start to thicken. Mine seem to be at 4 to 6 months old before I see any thickening. At this point they show signs of stacking which could be mistaken for pyramiding. Then as the bone growth thickens and fontanelles start to fill it stretches and pushes from the inside upward to hopefully a perfect smooth carapace shape. Once we are at the stage of thickened bones and it's all filled in they are not susceptible to pyramiding any more. 
My three 3.5 yr olds are smooth, at 2 yrs old I transferred them from a vivarium to my tort house, stopped soaking them and they are still growing on smooth. These three torts are vary from 6 to 8" SCL which suggests the closing of fontanelles is not related to how fast they grow but time. 
I've also notice the 9 that are a yr old seem to have slowed down in growing regarding their actual size but are still gaining weight, I'm thinking this is because there is some internal growing going on(bone development maybe). 
I wish I had weighed them from day 1 now to see if there is a growth pattern that is not relevant to growth speed, so for example do they all slow up on growth size at around 6 months even though one tort could be 3" and another 4" SCL.


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## Markw84

Craig,

I don't think we really know the answer to this question directly. I think we now have a pretty good idea of the mechanism of pyramiding, but how exactly, differences with redfoot tortoises would possible be, is not in my direct experience. It does seem to me that redfoots do develop thicker scutes and shell thickness as opposed to other types of tortoises. Probably a survival mechanism similar to some of the cooters and redbellies of Forida who coexist with alligators. Perhaps the keratin of the redfoot does continue to thicken for a longer period of time as the tortoise grows its first year. That could well be what you are seeing. I would not theorize it is stretching though, as the fontanelles fill in. It would make more sense to simply believe the newer growth areas are still thickening. It may well take a redfoot scute 6 - 12 months, for example, to gain active growth thickness. So the scute continues to develop more keratin depth for a longer period of time. That would leave the newer growth areas, closer to the seam, progressively thinner/lower as they are earlier in the development of thickness. At 1 - 2 years, those areas have also had the time to develop thickness, so the scute appears to have leveled out. The fontanelles would fill in and the bone structure thicken as a process of time more so than simply size. So a faster growing tortoise would still have the open fontanelles until time allows the bone growth to fill in those areas. I know in Sulcatas that can take 4 years or so to completely fill in the bone on the sides of the shell.


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## Anyfoot

Thanks Mark. 

Keep saying I'm going to and never get around to it. I'm going to take 2 of these to vets and get a couple of X-rays from each tort to see if we can learn anything. Maybe a waste of time but it's worth a shot.


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## Anyfoot

These 3 pictures are all of the same tort. 
From a clutch of 9 and all seem to be following the same growth pattern. Now 12 months old, at 5 to 6 months old they were all perfectly smooth. Between 6 and 7 months old they started showing what looks like stacking to me. The only thing that changed was I started feeding protein at 6 months old. They seem to have slowed down in growing regarding their actual size but still putting weight on. 
Notice how dry the carapace looks, just checked humidity and it's at 94%. Soaking and spraying, within the hour they look dry again. Some dig in and some don't. I mentioned the window acting as a basking area, I blocked that off a while back and added 4 torts from my other pen that is no where near the window. The 4 torts I added are now approaching 7 months old and I can see that same ugly growing pattern appearing that you can see in the third photo from above. The 4 tort where fed protein from 3 months old and were also perfectly smooth at 5 to 6 months old. 
Does that rule out the protein theory and the basking window theory? Is it just how they develop as they grow or are they stacking because they don't hide anymore like they used too, or are they growing to fast before fontanelles fill in is what I'm thinking. 
I can not for the life of me remember if the 3 smooth juveniles I raised went through this, Dawn says "they did and stop worrying about it, they are growing ok your obsessed"


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## Anyfoot

In this photo the tort at the top and at the bottom of the photo are 2 of the 4 I added. At 7 months old you can just see that ugly growth pattern coming in. 

Do you guys have any close ups of sullies at around 12 months old?


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## William Lee Kohler

Anyfoot said:


> What do you mean fed well?
> If they were allowed to bask in the sunshine as babies, that would be the drying out end of the scale that causes pyramiding I'm thinking.



San Diego Zoo are the world experts in concert with the Galapagos folks and know better than anyone else is what I mean. Tom "suggests" that THEY are learning from us as hobbyists? What an arrogant and ignorant statement! The Galapagos Conservancy has the very natural environment where they live to learn from and raise them in so what could they possibly learn from the unwashed masses of hobbyists.
This whole thread would be better posted under debatable subjects as that is exactly what it is.


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## Anyfoot

William Lee Kohler said:


> San Diego Zoo are the world experts in concert with the Galapagos folks and know better than anyone else is what I mean. Tom "suggests" that THEY are learning from us as hobbyists? What an arrogant and ignorant statement! The Galapagos Conservancy has the very natural environment where they live to learn from and raise them in so what could they possibly learn from the unwashed masses of hobbyists.
> This whole thread would be better posted under debatable subjects as that is exactly what it is.


 Maybe I should have put it in the debatable section but I was asking if diet contributes to pyramiding, not saying it does. Anyway that's a minor issue. 
I know nothing about San Diego zoo or how big a player they are in the tortoise world. I'm curious though, do they raise neonates from the egg in captivity to let's say 3 or 4 yrs old and have 100% success with smooth carapaces. If no then they are in the same boat as we hobbyists are.
I was watching one of David Attenborough's Galapagos episodes a couple months back and obviously the Galapagos tortoise was on. One of the things that surprised me was when he referred to the first 2 yrs of a Galapagos torts life as 'the lost years'. Does that suggest that even today we don't know for certain where a baby Galapagos(any species really) goes for the first 1 or 2 yrs of its life. How up to date this documentary is I don't know.

I put my trust into the experience of the forum members I consider to be experts rather than any Zoo on this side of the pond. I believe on your side of the pond Zoo's are a bit more knowledgeable with tortoises though.
Just remember most of us are in it for love not money.


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## Anyfoot

@Markw84 @Tom. 

When we see a wild ADULT redfoot come into captivity, the new captive growth is always lower down than the wild growth is. No matter how good the care is it's at a lower level, still smooth but lower down. 
Do you guys have any theories to why this happens? 
Does the underlying bone follow that shape from wild to captive growth, or does the bone carry on the same and new keratin is just not as thick as the wild growth? 
This photo shows an example of what I mean, the captive growth is not much in this example but from here on the new growth will carry on at that new lower level.


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## Ernie Johnson

Anyfoot said:


> In this photo the tort at the top and at the bottom of the photo are 2 of the 4 I added. At 7 months old you can just see that ugly growth pattern coming in.
> 
> Do you guys have any close ups of sullies at around 12 months old?
> View attachment 219498



What level of humidity have these Redfoot's been living in? Not to sound like a broken record or come off an an a**, but RF's are tropical forest torts who spend 90+% of their lives in 75-95% humidity conditions.

I raise our hatchlings in a 83-88 degree 80-90% humidity environment in a pen 75% covered with plastic plants to simulate the forest, not just humid hide and have pics of 3-5 year old hold backs with no pyramiding at all. 

Keep them warm and damp, in covered conditions, and on the right diet and at age 1, 5, or 17 in the case of my captive raised adults they'll look like wild caught animals.


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## Anyfoot

About time you showed up Ernie. 

I can assure you not many keep there torts as wet as mine. I soak, spray and my humidity is never below 90%. I have the enclosure built with a drainage system so not to get stagnant and have miniature palms for the rain forest. Substrate is about 8" of soil and coir, with orchid bark on that and mounds and mounds of moist spagnhum moss in. I've just recently started to add moist dried leaves so they hide under the leaves. 
However. 
I made a mistake and built this near a window so whilst I've been at work during the day they have been basking and drying out. Could kick myself for not noticing. Do you think this could be my issue? 
A few photos to show you how they live.


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## Anyfoot

@Ernie Johnson. Can I see photos of these wild looking torts you have raised?


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## Ernie Johnson

My profile pic is on my adults.

Here's a hot of a group of 2 year olds from 2013 (from the female in the bottom shot) and one from 4 years ago of my now adult female about to explore our youngest dogs tail. They give you an idea how smooth given high humidity across the entire pen and the right diet.


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## Ernie Johnson

Here's my now adult male with a full face shot.


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## Ernie Johnson

Anyfoot said:


> About time you showed up Ernie.
> 
> I can assure you not many keep there torts as wet as mine. I soak, spray and my humidity is never below 90%. I have the enclosure built with a drainage system so not to get stagnant and have miniature palms for the rain forest. Substrate is about 8" of soil and coir, with orchid bark on that and mounds and mounds of moist spagnhum moss in. I've just recently started to add moist dried leaves so they hide under the leaves.
> However.
> I made a mistake and built this near a window so whilst I've been at work during the day they have been basking and drying out. Could kick myself for not noticing. Do you think this could be my issue?
> A few photos to show you how they live.
> 
> View attachment 222513
> View attachment 222514
> View attachment 222515
> View attachment 222516
> View attachment 222517
> View attachment 222518
> View attachment 222519
> View attachment 222520



THAT is how to raise RF's and YF's! You'll get perfect carapaces and wonderful growth - following the right diet as well.


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## Anyfoot

Ernie Johnson said:


> My profile pic is on my adults.
> 
> Here's a hot of a group of 2 year olds from 2013 (from the female in the bottom shot) and one from 4 years ago of my now adult female about to explore our youngest dogs tail. They give you an idea how smooth given high humidity across the entire pen and the right diet.
> View attachment 222544
> View attachment 222543


Very nice. I notice your 2 yr olds show some, what could be mistaken to be minor pyramiding. Have you noticed there is a point during growth where they get slightly bumpy then it grows out smooth. If yes, is it the bone structure developing under the scutes that we are seeing?


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## Ernie Johnson

I've had a few of them look like they'd start to pyramid, then in a few months it was back to smooth growth. So far, no issues.


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## Erik Elvis

I acquired 2 redfoots a little while ago that are 2 years old. They were raised together in the same conditions and food. They were in an open kiddie pool but substrate kept moist and sprayed a few times a day. A mvb was used for uvb. They are both about 5 inches but one is moderately pyramided while the other with little to none. The pyramided one is a voracious feeder and always seems hungry. 

Thoughts?


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## Erik Elvis

Here they are.


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## Anyfoot

The pyramided one could have hogged the basking spot, in turn causing it to grow in a more dry climate. 
In captivity we feed them an abundance of food, just like they would get during wet season in the wild. So we basically are giving them a wet season diet year round. Directly under that MVB you are offering a dry season climate. If that tort is spending hours upon hours under that MVB it' is getting a wet season diet with a dry season climate. My guess is because it was an open enclosure then the dominant tort got the nice warm spot under the MVB. 
Assuming the other minor pyramided guy got limited time under the MVB then it got a diet and season that go more hand in hand than the pyramided one got.


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## Alaskamike

I have thought very much the same thing as @Anyfoot Can’t remember who the poster was , but believe it was in Leopard section on South African group. 4 or 5 babies raised from same clutch. And same environment yet within a year we’re all different sizes , as well as some shell variations. 

Have seen more than one post with clutch mates where one was showing noticeable pyramiding and the other not. 

We know siblings are genetically similar but not identical. And with torts , even in a clutch can have more than one male parent since torts hold perm viable for so long 

So genetics cannot be ruled out. 
But I am fairly convinced in the nature / nurture debate over pyramiding the behavior of the individual tort has primacy after proper temps & humidity - hydration. 

@Anyfoot was spot on


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## Ernie Johnson

Couple of thoughts.

1- an open enclosure is very difficult to keep at a 80-90% ambient humidity even with a damp substrate. Keeping it at 80-90% is factor numero uno to avoid pyramiding with these guys.

2- The amount of food AND what that food is can be an associated factor. These guys eat a 55% fruit diet year round in the wild and fruit virtually devoid of protein, unlike greens and commercial food. At this age, bugs, carrion, and mammal feces are their protein sources.

3- Genetics can be a part of the results

4- MVB bulbs are really bad for these guys as they concentrate too much UVB/UVA on the tortoise. They live in a dense jungle with muted to highly filtered sunlight and don't go anywhere near direct sunlight in open Savannah areas until they are at least 6-7 inches long.


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## Ernie Johnson

Of the dozens of hatchlings I've had (and never sold one before it was a year old) all have been flawless. After that I can't control what happens, but 80-90 degrees, 80-90% humidity and a 55% fruit, 40% greens, 5% animal protein diet works like a charm.


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## Ernie Johnson

The hardest thing for people to wrap their head around is all tortoises of every species spend 75-80% of their life in 70-90% humidity areas.

I started with Berlandiers (the Texas Tort) back in 1971 and from nothing but watching Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom and the Wonderful World of Disney that they, the Gopher tort, and the California Desert tort live in burrows. Now, Gophers live in areas of high ambient humidity, but they and the others still live in burrows and a burrow 4-6 feet deep even is southernmost Texas or outbound Las Vegas is going to have a humidity of 70-80%. And that's where these animals spend 20 out of 24 hours a day their entire life.

Sulcatta's and Russian's do the same in the wild (dig deep burrows) due to the extreme environments they live in year round.

All tortoises need to have a place they can spend 18-24 hours a day where the humidity is at least 60-70%.

Setting up a indoor or outdoor enclosure with an area or hide where the humidity never gets or stays above 60-70% is going to result in pyramiding, plain and simple.

Forest tortoises like Redfoot's/Yellowfoot's/ Forest Hingeback's, etc. are the extreme examples because they spend 24 out 24 hours a day their entire life in 70-90% humidity.


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## Big Charlie

Ernie Johnson said:


> The hardest thing for people to wrap their head around is all tortoises of every species spend 75-80% of their life in 70-90% humidity areas.
> 
> I started with Berlandiers (the Texas Tort) back in 1971 and from nothing but watching Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom and the Wonderful World of Disney that they, the Gopher tort, and the California Desert tort live in burrows. Now, Gophers live in areas of high ambient humidity, but they and the others still live in burrows and a burrow 4-6 feet deep even is southernmost Texas or outbound Las Vegas is going to have a humidity of 70-80%. And that's where these animals spend 20 out of 24 hours a day their entire life.
> 
> Sulcatta's and Russian's do the same in the wild (dig deep burrows) due to the extreme environments they live in year round.
> 
> All tortoises need to have a place they can spend 18-24 hours a day where the humidity is at least 60-70%.
> 
> Setting up a indoor or outdoor enclosure with an area or hide where the humidity never gets or stays above 60-70% is going to result in pyramiding, plain and simple.
> 
> Forest tortoises like Redfoot's/Yellowfoot's/ Forest Hingeback's, etc. are the extreme examples because they spend 24 out 24 hours a day their entire life in 70-90% humidity.


That's one of the reasons I was so happy when Charlie had a burrow. He hasn't had one for the last two years and that distresses me. I feel that, at least in the summer, it was healthier for him.


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## Anyfoot

I'm back for a discussion with diet versus pyramiding , and need your opinions please. 
I've mentioned it before, every single redfoot tortoise I've raised is perfectly smooth up to 6 months old. Then things change when they start hardening off. 
I've tried so many combinations with my herd of 43 babies. I have babies up to 15 months old now within this herd. I've not incubated an egg for 6 months because I need a plan for the next batch, can't have a plan until I've cleared up a few thoughts. 
The various variables have done are, don't feed protein until 6 months, 3 months, and from day one. Soak everyday. Soak every 3rd day. Feed same foods every day so each gets the exact same diet. Feed only weeds, no groceries for a supposedly more natural diet.
I even had 3 babies with no uvb for first 3 months. I inadvertently had the sun come through the window creating a basking spot for 11 of them which really peed me off. 
Some grow fast and some grow slow. The carapace and plastrons hardening off is relevant to age not size, this may well be only relevant to my herd only and how I raise them, but the hardening process becomes obvious at around 6 months when things change. 

Only in the last 4 wks did I start dusting food with nutrobal. I've never supplemented with vitamins and always offered cuttlebone 24/7. Recently I discovered my uvb tube was giving a lower reading than advised. This was rectified about a week ago. All are sprayed every day and my humidity never drops below 80% it's more like 90/100% at tort level 24/7. 
All these variables that I have, believe it or not I'm tracking. Remember every tort is smooth up until about 6 months old.
2 photos. 
#1 is 5.5months old and #2 is 7.5 months old. You can see that #1 is perfect, this one has been soaked every 3rd day. It's perfect. #2 has been soaked ever day but you can see it's changing, still looks good but it's changing, it's not perfect anymore. I'm seeing the same pattern throughout my herd no matter what. 
Today was the first time I've reverted back to feed them everything mixed in all at one in small cut up pieces and I'm obviously dusting with nutrobal now. I'm also going to start with vitamin supplements. 
Think I'm going to incubate the next clutch and feed everything with nutrobal and vitamin supplements, split them into two groups and soak daily with one, every 3rd day with the other. Keep everything else the same. 

Where does all this come in scientifically. 
If we need to make sure that bone dictates growth direction and not the keratin we need to keep the 2 in balance regarding how supple they are. 

If I soak, spray and have 100% humidity but don't feed vitamins I'm making sure keratin is supple but I'm not making the bone structure strong, so the bone structure may still be slightly dictated by keratin in bone growth direction. 

If I DON'T soak, spray, have 100% humidity and feed plenty of vitamins then bone structure is super strong but it counts for nothing because keratin is dry and keratin still dictates bone growth direction. 

If I soak daily, spray and have 100% humidity and feed plenty of vitamins then I'm keeping keratin supple and bone structure strong. In theory bone dictates its natural growth path. 
However by soaking daily am I not allowing the bone structure to dry out a bit, if bone keeps supple through excess soaking then I'm back to keratin dictating bone growth direction. This is where a soak of every 3rd day comes in. 

All this one way or the other suggests that redfoots hatch with enough vitamins to last up to around 6 months old, because no matter what I do they are smooth at around 6 months.
Bearing in mind I keep them all well hydrated. 
What I mean is if you raised one dry from day one then I would probably see pyramiding before the 6 month period. 

One last thought. Yes it seems obvious to feed vitaminsbfor strong bones, I've relied on fruit, UVB, cuttlebone and natural weeds for that. 
A couple of sprinkles a week of powder? Is that really enough, What about Daily. Seemed alien to me at first. But just think about bone to keratin supple ratio. Are we concentrating on keratin too much.
Does anyone put calcium D3 or vitamins on daily to keep good strong bone structure, and keep them super hydrated? 

@Tom. @Markw84 As always input please.


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## Anyfoot

#1 is 5.5 months. 
#2 is 7.5 months.


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## Ernie Johnson

My 2 cents, FWIW.

Off all the ones I've hatched over the last 7 years I've seen this happen twice. 

Until the last 2017's I never gave mine any "supplementation" until 6 months old, nor animal protein.

With this last batch I've decide to do what I've done for my Russian's and supplement with 50/50 Herpvite-RepCal with D3 and Bene Bac once a month, just to see if anything different happens.

So far the oldest (5 months) looks like all the previous, but time and a larger data set will tell.

About your diet, I've always fed a 55-60% fruit (papaya, mango, fresh fig, pineapple, occasional berry) 40-45% green (cactus, the usual dark leafy greens) and no vegetables of any kind in order to mimic as best as possible their wild diet.

Something to consider:

1 cup of dandelion greens is 1.5 grams of protein, collard is 1.1, and turnip 1.6.

1 cup of papaya pieces is .7. 

The diet I've used for them until they reach 6-9 months old has ~1/2 the protein of an all greens diet.

Given these guys consume a decent amount carrion, mammal feces, and mushrooms in the wild they do get a higher level of protein than arid species and that protein predominantly animal based vs. plant based, so they get a more complete set of amino acids.

Finally, its impossible to completely mimic nature and tropical forest torts are the hardest (after 46 years into the mission, IMHO) from a husbandry perspective and why RFs are so susceptible to pyramiding and why the vast majority of captive bred ones look like live hand grenades.


----------



## Anyfoot

Ernie Johnson said:


> My 2 cents, FWIW.
> 
> Off all the ones I've hatched over the last 7 years I've seen this happen twice.
> 
> Until the last 2017's I never gave mine any "supplementation" until 6 months old, nor animal protein.
> 
> With this last batch I've decide to do what I've done for my Russian's and supplement with 50/50 Herpvite-RepCal with D3 and Bene Bac once a month, just to see if anything different happens.
> 
> So far the oldest (5 months) looks like all the previous, but time and a larger data set will tell.
> 
> About your diet, I've always fed a 55-60% fruit (papaya, mango, fresh fig, pineapple, occasional berry) 40-45% green (cactus, the usual dark leafy greens) and no vegetables of any kind in order to mimic as best as possible their wild diet.
> 
> Something to consider:
> 
> 1 cup of dandelion greens is 1.5 grams of protein, collard is 1.1, and turnip 1.6.
> 
> 1 cup of papaya pieces is .7.
> 
> The diet I've used for them until they reach 6-9 months old has ~1/2 the protein of an all greens diet.
> 
> Given these guys consume a decent amount carrion, mammal feces, and mushrooms in the wild they do get a higher level of protein than arid species and that protein predominantly animal based vs. plant based, so they get a more complete set of amino acids.
> 
> Finally, its impossible to completely mimic nature and tropical forest torts are the hardest (after 46 years into the mission, IMHO) from a husbandry perspective and why RFs are so susceptible to pyramiding and why the vast majority of captive bred ones look like live hand grenades.


Thanks Ernie. 
Up until the cold set in about 2 months ago, my greens side of the diet was weeds, dandelion, plantains, thistles, nettles, primrose flowers, clovers, bittersweet cress, I was obsessed with never turning to groceries, never fed groceries once until recently, my eleven 15 month olds even got weeds through last mild winter. I know people who only feed groceries, but heavily supplement them and produce good tortoises. 
My recent thoughts have turned to, if they do need a higher vitamin intake for good strong bone growth(higher than we first thought), then how are they getting it in the wild. I can only think they eat dirt.


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## Anyfoot

By heavily, I mean daily.


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> One last thought. Yes it seems obvious to feed vitaminsbfor strong bones, I've relied on fruit, UVB, cuttlebone and natural weeds for that.



You've drawn a conclusion _before_ your experiment. It is *NOT* "obvious" that artificial vitamin supplementation is needed for strong bones and pyramiding prevention. Not sure where that is coming from. You are seeing something change at a certain age in your babies, but why have you concluded that it has to do with vitamin supplementation, versus a whole host of other possibilities.

Given the excellent diet you are offering, I'm willing to bet the your next hatchlings raised with higher levels of vitamin supplementation will do exactly the same thing as previous babies.

I've seen something similar with sulcatas. I attributed it to imperfect conditions due to covered open topped enclosures. When I switched to closed chambers I got perfect results. Dean did too. I've also seen this sort of shell "imperfection" happen when seasons change and more electric heat is applied. My stars did this. In the heat of summer, the heating elements rarely come on and I shut half the basking lamps off and simultaneously reduce wattage in the remaining basking lamps. I see the least pyramiding during these hotter times of year. I see the most in the winter months, and all things considered, I think its the electric heat that is doing it. With all of the research that @Markw84 has been doing with IR-A in relation to the various heating bulbs and elements we all use, this makes sense.

We know electric heat is very desiccating. Even in a closed chamber. In your climate, your reliance on electric heat is even more of a factor.


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## Anyfoot

Tom said:


> You've drawn a conclusion _before_ your experiment. It is *NOT* "obvious" that artificial vitamin supplementation is needed for strong bones and pyramiding prevention. Not sure where that is coming from. You are seeing something change at a certain age in your babies, but why have you concluded that it has to do with vitamin supplementation, versus a whole host of other possibilities.
> 
> Given the excellent diet you are offering, I'm willing to bet the your next hatchlings raised with higher levels of vitamin supplementation will do exactly the same thing as previous babies.
> 
> I've seen something similar with sulcatas. I attributed it to imperfect conditions due to covered open topped enclosures. When I switched to closed chambers I got perfect results. Dean did too. I've also seen this sort of shell "imperfection" happen when seasons change and more electric heat is applied. My stars did this. In the heat of summer, the heating elements rarely come on and I shut half the basking lamps off and simultaneously reduce wattage in the remaining basking lamps. I see the least pyramiding during these hotter times of year. I see the most in the winter months, and all things considered, I think its the electric heat that is doing it. With all of the research that @Markw84 has been doing with IR-A in relation to the various heating bulbs and elements we all use, this makes sense.
> 
> We know electric heat is very desiccating. Even in a closed chamber. In your climate, your reliance on electric heat is even more of a factor.


What I meant by 'it seems obvious to offer supplements' is that most do offer some sort of supplement, but I offer none( up until recently). So there may be members out there thinking, 'why haven't I offered supplements, it's a no brainer'. But I thought my diet compensated for supplements. Has it though? 

I understand what your saying about indoor electrical heat appliances adding to potential pyramiding. But I only use IR panels, 320w, they heat up to 90deg c +/- 5deg c and the closest one to my babies is about 4ft away. I'm assuming I have totally eradicated the potential of artificial heat regarding pyramiding. I also have a strip uvb light to.


----------



## Anyfoot

@Tom. I just tried to take a photo of my panel and enclosure to show you, but I can't stand far enough back to get a side view. Here is a photo from behind the panel and a drawing from the side. I just measured the panel from the enclosure and it's offset to one side by 33" and measured diagonally 69" away from the enclosure wall. 
Surely I've eradicated the drying process via artificial heat. Except when I let the sun act as a basking spot through the window for my original 11 babies. 

It's an open table but the entire enclosure never drops below 80%.


----------



## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> Surely I've eradicated the drying process via artificial heat.



It sure seems that way to me.


----------



## Anyfoot

To show you my humidity levels at tortoise level I moved my gauge near where they sleep about half an hour ago. This is absolute worst case scenario, it's the end of the night, so at its driest. Normally I spray at night but Because it's so cold this last week or so my temps are dragged down to 25deg c at night. (Really I should add a 5th panel for extreme cold nights). Because temps are at 25c I won't spray them at night, this only happened for last 2 wks at most. Point is, my humidity is usually in the 90's. Probably 100% under the moss and leaf debris where they dig into the moist coir.


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## Anyfoot

It's doing my head in @Tom. Some grow on smooth and some not so smooth, none are as good as my 4 yr olds which I fed anything and everything at some stage, I also supplemented those 4 in the earlier months. 

Since getting my radiated I've spoke with a whole new community and that's what is making me think about supplements. I'm not saying it's 100% that.
I'll start incubating again for the next round of experiments


----------



## Ernie Johnson

This may be going too deep in the weeds (no pun intended) on the diet front, but feeding a very high percentage of greens would have them ingesting matter with a much higher level of oxalic acid than they would in the wild and it's a strong dicarboxylic acid that occurs in many plants and vegetables, but not in most tropical fruits. Many of the dark leafy greens and yard weeds rate Moderate to High content-wise and Redfoot's wouldn't have developed the same ability to "address" them as arid species.


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## Anyfoot

Ernie Johnson said:


> This may be going too deep in the weeds (no pun intended) on the diet front, but feeding a very high percentage of greens would have them ingesting matter with a much higher level of oxalic acid than they would in the wild and it's a strong dicarboxylic acid that occurs in many plants and vegetables, but not in most tropical fruits. Many of the dark leafy greens and yard weeds rate Moderate to High content-wise and Redfoot's wouldn't have developed the same ability to "address" them as arid species.


 Because I wanted to make sure each and every tort got the exact same type of food I fed only one food type per day. 
So, 
fruit day 1. 
weeds and flowers day 2
Mushrooms day 3
Weeds and flowers day 4
Back to fruit and so on. 
Protein at the moment is once a month since I started seeing some of the older ones stacking. Originally after 6 months old they got protein 3 times a month. 

At the moment I'm hanging on to the hope that the ones that have just reached 6 months old and only had protein once a month carry on growing smooth. TBH I think it's a false hope. 

Maybe I should cut out mushrooms and replace with fruit on what your saying.


----------



## William Lee Kohler

"Are we concentrating on keratin too much." YES! Cart before horse. I look at fingernails; Keratin growing off finger skeleton. Smash nail and if damage to skeleton nail will never grow right again. Skeleton and not keratin dictates surface appearance. Makes no sense at all other way around. Look at tortoise with shell skeleton damaged by dog. Damaged bone always will grow damaged keratin. Keratin does not smooth out underlying bone. Ever!
Personal empirical experience is that my young adult with pyramided growth was made better just by addition of 2x4' 40W UVB lights. 3' lower wattage lights still pyramided! Along the way irregular vitamin supp added as chelonian suitable stuff came available. About 2 times a week. (how often would you like to have powder on your food?) Have not raised baby Redfoots for 20 years so have not raised baby under 4' lights yet. Hydration is room ambient with soaks once a week and water drinking dish. 
I am convinced that pervasive concentration of UVA and UVB at reasonably high wattage is the key. Food, humidity, supplementation, sometimes protein should all help foundation and health but growth rings will still be there just hopefully without pyramiding.


----------



## Marianna

Just 2 questions from a naive woman living in Crete.
Why do my fingernails grow twice as fast in summer when UV index is 9 while I never sunbath?
Why do my marginated tortoises show growth in this period? They don't expose themselves to direct sunlight either in these months.....


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## William Lee Kohler

Personally NO idea about why nails might grow faster. Maybe like trees you grow faster in nice weather. As long as your tortoise is eating he can be growing unless taking a growth rest period. You might be surprised how much UVA and UVB they get while you're not looking. I can't help but wonder if they get reflected radiation even if the VISIBLE light isn't reflected onto them.


----------



## Marianna

William Lee Kohler said:


> Personally NO idea about why nails might grow faster. Maybe like trees you grow faster in nice weather. As long as your tortoise is eating he can be growing unless taking a growth rest period. You might be surprised how much UVA and UVB they get while you're not looking. I can't help but wonder if they get reflected radiation even if the VISIBLE light isn't reflected onto them.



My question/remark was merely to agree with you on the UV concentration. I think high UV makes both my tortoises and my fingernails grow faster.
My torts grow most in the hottest months so that must be some kind of proof....About UV reflected radiation: even when I sit outside too long under umbrella or tree, I will eventually get sun burns. For the same reason my tortoises don't bask then. Only in spring and autumn when the UV gets down to 5 or 6


----------



## Tom

Marianna said:


> My torts grow most in the hottest months so that must be some kind of proof....



There is a problem with your UV theory, and your above assertion highlights this.

We are talking about ectotherms. Of course they will grow more in warmer temperatures. How do you know they are not growing more because of the heat and it has nothing to do with the UV. I can guarantee that if you keep them cool, but under strong HO UV bulbs, they will still grow slowly, if at all.

I can't answer your question about your own fingernails. Because that does not happen to me, I would guess that it is something dietary, or some other factor(s). I just had to clip my toenails yesterday because they had a winter growth spurt. My nails grow at a similar rate year round and I think my climate and UV levels are pretty similar to yours. Do you eat or drink more of something in the summer? Or less of something?

I liked your questions, so please don't take offense. I think it is good to propose new ideas and theories. I do this regularly. Then I shoot them down, or other people do, and eventually we arrive at new conclusions. Please don't hesitate to ask more questions or propose new ideas and theories. This is all part of the process of figuring out this great tortoise mystery.


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## Markw84

Craig:

I do not follow your issues with the possible bone health/pliability/hardening concerns. I cannot think of any way the bone contributes to pyramiding. It reacts to pyramiding. There is never the slightest bit of a pyramiding effect that would relate to bone sutures and the way bone grows. It is totally aligned ONLY to scute growth. For proper bone growth, you need proper Calcium, Phosphorus, Magnesium and D3. I do not see how there is any way your set up and diets could be the least bit deficient.

How does what you are seeing at 6-8 months look at 18 months? Is there a pronounced "growth ring' created? Or is the scute growth altered to a slight actual pyramiding? I cannot tell from your pictures exactly what you are seeing. I certainly examine scute growth closely as you do. I look for a difference in a ridge or dip that develops vs a change in the direction of subsequent growth. What are you seeing in that regard?


----------



## Marianna

Tom said:


> There is a problem with your UV theory, and your above assertion highlights this.
> 
> We are talking about ectotherms. Of course they will grow more in warmer temperatures. How do you know they are not growing more because of the heat and it has nothing to do with the UV. I can guarantee that if you keep them cool, but under strong HO UV bulbs, they will still grow slowly, if at all.
> 
> I can't answer your question about your own fingernails. Because that does not happen to me, I would guess that it is something dietary, or some other factor(s). I just had to clip my toenails yesterday because they had a winter growth spurt. My nails grow at a similar rate year round and I think my climate and UV levels are pretty similar to yours. Do you eat or drink more of something in the summer? Or less of something?
> 
> I liked your questions, so please don't take offense. I think it is good to propose new ideas and theories. I do this regularly. Then I shoot them down, or other people do, and eventually we arrive at new conclusions. Please don't hesitate to ask more questions or propose new ideas and theories. This is all part of the process of figuring out this great tortoise mystery.


My torts don't need UV bulbs. They live outside in an enormous enclosure. We have 300 sunny days per year  They hibernate 4 months (also outside) though so miss most of the not sunny days. And of course they live in their natural habitat. I don't know if we have a similar climate. Crete is an island and in the summer very dry and arid. But you are right, it might be something else that not only makes our fingernails but also our hair grow faster. Family and friends that live here or come for holidays from northern Europe notice the same. The heat then? Clean air? No pollution? Olive oil? No idea, but I also notice that the tortoises grow fastest in the summermonths when humidity is very low. No signs of pyramiding whatsoever. And not interested in water at all. Indeed it is a mystery.....thats why they fascinate me!


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## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> To show you my humidity levels at tortoise level I moved my gauge near where they sleep about half an hour ago. This is absolute worst case scenario, it's the end of the night, so at its driest. Normally I spray at night but Because it's so cold this last week or so my temps are dragged down to 25deg c at night. (Really I should add a 5th panel for extreme cold nights). Because temps are at 25c I won't spray them at night, this only happened for last 2 wks at most. Point is, my humidity is usually in the 90's. Probably 100% under the moss and leaf debris where they dig into the moist coir.
> View attachment 227634


Just a thought for reference as I saw this picture. I always have to keep in mind that hygrometers are not meant to be in a condensing environment. In our high humidity, high temperature enclosures, condensation will form inside the sensor and start distorting the reading substantially. They will invariably start reading higher than actual when that occurs. I regularly cycle mine in and out of the enclosures to be sure the sensors have a chance to dry out regularly and there is not moisture left trapped inside.


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## Anyfoot

Mark. 

Below in fig 1 shows the underlying bone with scutes that have no new growth. Bone sutures never line up with new keratin growth. Bone growth comes from bone sutures. 

Fig 2 shows the bone plate has grown from the sutures and created crevices between scutes ready for new keratin growth. 

View A(example 1) shows the new keratin growth coming in perfectly level. We are assuming because we've kept the new keratin moist and supple, the bone that bridges the underside of the crevice can grow in the correct plane because it's harder than the supple keratin. The soft supple bone is dictating growth direction over the soft supple keratin, which is in the perfect growth plane. 

View A(example 2) shows the new keratin growth starting to tip and create the very first signs of pyramiding. We are assuming because we've kept the new keratin too dry and hard it is tipping the soft supple bone down, the hard new keratin is dictating the bone growth direction. 
What if in View A(example 2) we have kept the new keratin moist and supple but still get the bone tipping.)if it's even possible) One theoretical way is that the underlying bone of that crevice is extra super supple through bad diet and the soft supple keratin is still dictating bone growth direction, it's tipping it. We are bordering on MBD. 

Looking at this regarding my torts, they are all smooth up to around 6 months old. Then changes happen. What if they hatch out with a storage of vitamins(not just calcium and D3) that lasts a certain amount of time(6 months). 
This would point to my diet being poor in vitamins. 
I'm aware that I may still be seeing dramatic bone growth development, but I'm not so sure. I have a few that look bad IMO. 

One last thing. If the bone grows from sutures, that means that new bone growth can never be dictated by new keratin once the bone is fully ossified because the bone underlying the new crevices will always be ossified(hard). So this means all this only applies when the hatchlings bones are still soft. I don't believe ossification is related to growth, it's related to time. 

Do you think it's possible that a hatchling in the wild could dig into moist soil for 4 to 6 months and whilst hidden the bones ossificate and then the torts grow on?


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## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> Just a thought for reference as I saw this picture. I always have to keep in mind that hygrometers are not meant to be in a condensing environment. In our high humidity, high temperature enclosures, condensation will form inside the sensor and start distorting the reading substantially. They will invariably start reading higher than actual when that occurs. I regularly cycle mine in and out of the enclosures to be sure the sensors have a chance to dry out regularly and there is not moisture left trapped inside.


Good point.


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## WithLisa

Anyfoot said:


> If the bone grows from sutures, that means that new bone growth can never be dictated by new keratin once the bone is fully ossified because the bone underlying the new crevices will always be ossified(hard). So this means all this only applies when the hatchlings bones are still soft.


Ossified bone may seem hard to the touch, but bone tissue is very flexible and degrades and rebuilds itself at all times, even light (but constant!) pressure will deform it. 
That's why pyramiding can also occur in smooth adult tortoises (without MBD) if their setup is changed to very dry conditions.


----------



## Anyfoot

WithLisa said:


> Ossified bone may seem hard to the touch, but bone tissue is very flexible and degrades and rebuilds itself at all times, even light (but constant!) pressure will deform it.
> That's why pyramiding can also occur in smooth adult tortoises (without MBD) if their setup is changed to very dry conditions.


I didn't know this, but you would think a bone that is ossified is stronger than a bone that is not.


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## WithLisa

Anyfoot said:


> I didn't know this, but you would think a bone that is ossified is stronger than a bone that is not.


To be honest, I don't know.
But I think cartilage bends easily but will more likely return to it's original shape. Bone tissue deforms very slowly but the changes are permanent. 

You said your babies are growing perfectly smooth for a few months, so doesn't that mean the problems are starting because of ossification?


----------



## Anyfoot

WithLisa said:


> To be honest, I don't know.
> But I think cartilage bends easily but will more likely return to it's original shape. Bone tissue deforms very slowly but the changes are permanent.
> 
> You said your babies are growing perfectly smooth for a few months, so doesn't that mean the problems are starting because of ossification?


 Yes, the ugly Grenade look kicks in at same time the plastron starts to harden off. 
I know maybe I should sit back and just see how they develop. But I'm worried about it just getting worse and worse. So I wanted people's opinions on how they are now and to rule in or out any elaborate theories I've managed to think up .


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## Anyfoot

This photo is from last week. 
The 3 in a row at the back and the 3 at the front are about 15months old from a clutch of 9.


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## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> Mark.
> 
> Below in fig 1 shows the underlying bone with scutes that have no new growth. Bone sutures never line up with new keratin growth. Bone growth comes from bone sutures.
> 
> Fig 2 shows the bone plate has grown from the sutures and created crevices between scutes ready for new keratin growth.
> 
> View A(example 1) shows the new keratin growth coming in perfectly level. We are assuming because we've kept the new keratin moist and supple, the bone that bridges the underside of the crevice can grow in the correct plane because it's harder than the supple keratin. The soft supple bone is dictating growth direction over the soft supple keratin, which is in the perfect growth plane.
> 
> View A(example 2) shows the new keratin growth starting to tip and create the very first signs of pyramiding. We are assuming because we've kept the new keratin too dry and hard it is tipping the soft supple bone down, the hard new keratin is dictating the bone growth direction.
> What if in View A(example 2) we have kept the new keratin moist and supple but still get the bone tipping.)if it's even possible) One theoretical way is that the underlying bone of that crevice is extra super supple through bad diet and the soft supple keratin is still dictating bone growth direction, it's tipping it. We are bordering on MBD.
> 
> Looking at this regarding my torts, they are all smooth up to around 6 months old. Then changes happen. What if they hatch out with a storage of vitamins(not just calcium and D3) that lasts a certain amount of time(6 months).
> This would point to my diet being poor in vitamins.
> I'm aware that I may still be seeing dramatic bone growth development, but I'm not so sure. I have a few that look bad IMO.
> 
> One last thing. If the bone grows from sutures, that means that new bone growth can never be dictated by new keratin once the bone is fully ossified because the bone underlying the new crevices will always be ossified(hard). So this means all this only applies when the hatchlings bones are still soft. I don't believe ossification is related to growth, it's related to time.
> 
> Do you think it's possible that a hatchling in the wild could dig into moist soil for 4 to 6 months and whilst hidden the bones ossificate and then the torts grow on?
> 
> View attachment 227698


Craig. Your beginning statement is incorrect. Bones do not grow like scutes - from the seams (sutures) Bone grows very differently than a scute grows. Bones grow and ossify over the entire area of the bone. It is an ongoing process that takes years. There are two different things going on as well. The filling in of fontanelles that are quite wide that separate the lower half of the ribs in a young tortoise. That can take 3-6 years to fully fill in those gaps. There is also the ossification that is occurring in all bone that is enlarging and strengthening the bones. There are no fontanelles in most areas of the rest of the carapace. But the bones must grow in both thickness and length as the body grows. It also changes as bone replaces cartilage in very young bone. There is an ongoing formation of new and dissolving of old as the tiny pockets of bone form and develop new osteoblasts and blood supply to the developing bone. As long as a tortoise is growing, there is ossification going on throughout the bones.

As @WithLisa points out, bone is pliable and can be deformed by pressure. Because of the ongoing formation of cells the bone will distort to new growth patterns with an amazingly slight, but consistent pressure. IN fact it is that ossification process that makes the pyramiding caused by the scutes permanent - as the bone has grown in a new direction. You can often see the growth rings of a tortoise that will be imprinted into the underlying bone.

Scutes are different. As we've discussed on many occasions, tortoise scutes, unlike aquatic turtle scutes, grow and add new keratin almost totally at the seams alone. New keratin is very susceptible to hydration issues. In most of nature, new keratin is almost always formed protected from exposure. Our fingernail cuticle, hair follicles beneath the skin, the soft tissue around the base of new horns, the sheath of a new feather, etc. But tortoises have no protective covering over newly exposed keratin. When keratin hardens, it stiffens and becomes a protective layer that does not grow further as those cells are no longer growing.

I am convinced that pyramiding is only a scute thing, not a bone thing. We do see that excessive pyramiding is being caused by the new keratin at the seam drying too quickly and forcing too much filling in of that new keratin to be downward instead of out.

But slight pyramiding I can theorize to be three other contributing mechanisms.

First - genetic. Just as some of us have thicker fingernails, or ones that tend to curl more, thicker hair, etc, etc. It may be that some tortoises have a thicker keratin structure to their scutes. The scute is amazingly thin for its strength. A bit more thickness may indeed cause a more resistant or more prone nature to pyramiding??

Second - behavioral. The way an individual tortoise chooses to stay hidden/covered, or bask more, or is more active - could certainly lead to a different way the new keratin is drying between individuals.

Third (in looking at your tortoises) - MAYBE the keratin is never being allowed to dry at all! Newer keratin absorbs moisture and swells. Dried keratin becomes more inert and stiff. MAYBE if the keratin of a young tortoise is never allowed to dry, it continues to have the ability to absorb some moisture and swell slightly. This swelling of the top layer that normally would be dry and stiff could cause a slight curling downward???? I know in aquatic turtles if hatchlings are growing where they bask and dry out excessively it will cause the edges of the shell to curl upwards. With an aquatic, new kerating is being laid down along the entire underside of a scute - so the entire underside is new keratin and the excessively dry top will stiffen prematurely. MAYBE a tortoise that never has time where the keratin dries is actually allowing the keratin to remain too hydroscopic. MAYBE that is why those of us who have created very efficient chambers and enclosures for maintaining constant humidity are never giving the 2, 3, 4 month old keratin to fully dry and solidity????


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## Anyfoot

Thanks @Markw84. Very educational as usual. 

There are still a few minor things I'm not understanding about how the new keratin grows. 
I'll get a couple of photos later tonight, but sometimes I see a nice steady growth of keratin, this displays as a thin white line around the scute boarders, then sometimes I see a very obvious wide crevice. We obviously get growth rings around the scutes. So when I see a white keratin line between scutes, it's actually 2 lines, one for each adjacent scute. Is that correct. 
When I see a wide crevice between scutes what am I actually looking at, is it a sign that the tort is too dry at that particular moment and the new keratin hasn't expanded to fill the crevice. Where does that new keratin grow from. The bottom of the crevice, or from under the last hard keratin growth.


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## Anyfoot

Ok, I'm just going to stick a load of photos on with their ages. All those at 16 months old were exposed to artificial basking through a window for long periods. I thought this was why they looked so bad. 
See what you think. You'll notice some look dry, it's only the last couple of weeks I've allowed them to get dryer because temps dropped to 25c during winter nights. So basically we spray in the morning and soak them at least 3 times a week, I usually spray in the evening too. I've soaked them all every day except the 6 month olds. They were soaked daily for 3 months then I changed to every 3 days. Personally I think as long as they get some hydration they all look the same up to around 6 months old(smooth). Then the crevices kick in and things change. 

#6 has white growth line, #7 has a crevice. Why? 

#1. 8 months 



#2. 11 months 



#3. 11 months. 



#4. 7 months. 



#5. 6 months. 



#6. 6 months. 



#7. 8 months. 



#8. 11 months. 



#9. 8 months. 



#10. 11 months. 



#11. 16 months. 



#12. 16 months. 



#13. 9 months. 



#14. 8 months. 



#15. 16 months. 



#16. 6 months. 



#17. 6 months. 



#18. 16 months. (Worst one of the lot)


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## ColaCarbonaria

This is great stuff from everyone. @Anyfoot thank you for keeping the pedal to the metal in your quest to better understand your charges and never being satisfied in that quest. Your babies are beautiful.


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## Anyfoot

Thanks Cola. If we talk we learn.


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## Anyfoot

I've put this one up before I think. 
This is the same tortoise at around 5/6 months then at about 14 months. (Now16 months old).
If you look at the younger photo you can just see the first crevice. Then look at the older one, it went down hill from that crevice. 
So these 16 month olds that look horrible didn't get any protein for 6 months, lately through buying a solar meter I've discovered my torts were probably only getting half the recommended uvb rays. On top of that I created a drying spot via the window. Looking at it like that I'm thinking, mmmm low vitamin D source. If so, it also means they have roughly 6 months supple of vitamins from hatching.

But #2 and 3 above contradicts that thought.


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## Anyfoot

If I had two torts and cared for them identically but supplimented only one with vitamins would that ones fontanelles fill quicker and would it's bones ossify faster?


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## zovick

Anyfoot said:


> If I had two torts and cared for them identically but supplimented only one with vitamins would that ones fontanelles fill quicker and would it's bones ossify faster?



That is very likely the case, assuming that the proper level of UV light was provided to them both so that the supplements that one received could be metabolized properly.


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## Anyfoot

@Markw84 

This is one of the ones I raised in the enclosure that I allowed sunlight to shine through the window and create a dry hot basking spot. This is actually the bumpiest one. It was soaked daily for first 6 months. I fed this one and it’s clutch mates 50% weeds and flowers, 20% fruit, 20% mushrooms and 10% protein. (Protein was cat food 3 times per month), I’ve never added supplements in any way other than cuttlebone. Many thoughts have gone through my mind as to why it is bumpy. I’ve since with later clutches tried various diets and soaking routines. I’ve even thought maybe I’ve been keeping them too wet. I’ve always come back to blaming it on the window creating a dry hot spot. Humidity has always been 80% plus. 
The last 3 months I’ve drastically changed my care. Diet has been mainly grocery greens. I feed catfood once a month, and on rare occasion add a few mushrooms or a bit of fruit to the greens. I’ve been putting mixing 5ml of nutrobal into the greens every day(43 babies). 
Soaking them twice a week. 
So basically I’ve slowed down the growth by only offering greens and upped the vitamin intake by adding nutrobal. Since doing this I’ve seen no crevices and only the white growth rings that I’m actually thinking is a good thing. 
What do you think of the newest growth ring. 

Just something I thought of lately regarding the thoughts on does diet effect pyramiding( basically fast growth). You and Tom have herbivore species, I have omnivores, I’m thinking it’s far easier for me to over feed my omnivores and force them to grow faster(beyond species normality) through a diet of mushrooms, meat, fruit and foliage than it is you guys feeding foliage. The majority of the time when we here of knowledgeable breeders saying over feeding contributes to pyramiding it is from redfoot breeders. Maybe because of the said diet vast variety for redfoots it is possible to grow them too fast. Maybe they shouldn’t eat rich meats and fruits at an early stage of life. Foliage along with the odd bug and bits of dirt sounds more like it to me.


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