# Tortoise Keeping - Welfare



## Sky2Mina (Sep 11, 2011)

Hello Everyone,

So, there was something I was wondering about.

I'm German, and when the Idea emerged of getting a tortoise I naturally looked for German information first - I got quickly discouraged getting one (until I found this Forum). 

In Germany, generally, they advocate ONE right way to keep tortoises and if tortoises (mostly Testudo) are not kept this way, they will tell you that you're cruel to your animal.

So the welfare of tortoises require e.g. these standards:
- do NOT keep 1 animal alone. Even tortoise need a partner.
- an adult Testudo needs AT LEAST 10 square metres (107 square feet) of space
- you CAN'T keep your tortoise inside. It HAS TO BE outside all year round
- it HAS TO hibernate
- do NOT touch them, handle them as infrequently as possible
- I never read about force-soaking them

If I'd tell them that I currently keep my yearling star tortoise in a rubbermaid container, they'd probably stone me virtually.  
I read of a hobby breeder, that said she wouldn't give her tortoise away, if the customer didn't have at least a 25 square meter (27 square feet) yard for the tortoise (Testudo). Some people in the forum said, you shouldn't let your own children handle the tortoise, because it would be too stressful for them. 

While I welcome the effort to improve tortoise welfare, I don't like their idea of advocating the one right way to keep them, with no margin for different methods. I also don't like them judging and criticizing people that keep their tortoises differently (e.g. in a large terrarium).

Here in the Forum I encounter a totally different mentality - even if a new owner tells about how he feeds is tortoise only romaine, no one will criticize, just suggest nicely how to improve things. In German forums, as far as I have read, some members would answer with harsh criticism. Personally, if someone attacked me that way, I wouldn't take the advice at all. 

I'm not bashing on Germans here.  We're good people in general, but that's something I don't like. It does seem to be a cultural thing, because they are also specific "must meet" requirements for other animals around. I'm not sure about other (European) countries. I just wonder how they measure these "must meet" requirements. How can they say that a tortoise needs at least so-and-so much space?

It's actually pretty discouraging for a respective pet keeper: When I kept guinea pigs as a kid, and I loved them to death, I joined a forum to make sure they'd be happy. I could never meet the requirements, even though I build a large cage for them, the answer in the forum was still "no, that's too small" (after that, I never went online on that Fourm again). Also I almost can't keep any fish in my 20-gallon aquarium, because most fish "require" more space than that. 

So, what I'm probably wondering is, if there are strong opinions like that in the US, UK or fellow TFO members? 
And: Why are you people so "nice"?  I mean, why is it that most of you are so "tolerant"? Or do some of you think that this forum is too tolerant?

I would be interested in your thoughts of this topic,
Mina


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## dmmj (Sep 11, 2011)

I can only speak for myself but when someone new joins I welcome them and then offer helpful advice. I sort of like the idea of having minimum requirement rules, but then again you can see that the rules seem to get lots of things wrong. And of course I don't really want more government bureaucrats and then them telling me I am dong things wrong based on their opinions.


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## cherylim (Sep 11, 2011)

Living in the UK and having done plenty of research, I'd say we're definitely more 'relaxed' here. About any kind of pet, in fact. In most cases it's very much a case of us being free to try and raise a pet in the way we think is best.

That said, the tortoise breeders I came across during my time searching for a tortoise were of course very set in their ways, and said that they'd check for a suitable home by their standards before selling a tortoise. Then again, there aren't many breeders around! Most tortoises are sold in newspapers and on the internet as no-longer-wanted pets, or in pet shops which is where I'll now be buying my tortoise from. I sent them an e-mail and asked if I'd need to bring anything with me, in case they wanted enclosure information or my ID or anything, and they said no. It's going to be a case of me wandering in on Friday, picking a tortoise and paying, and then it's all up to me to do right by it.


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## Madkins007 (Sep 11, 2011)

In many ways, I think the US has been far too lax on most pet laws in most places most of the time and the result is often a benign form of neglect or mild cruelty. Too many people have animals of all types they are not taking care of properly and should not have, etc.

However, I know about a lot of the rules in Europe and it often feels like the only tortoise they know about are the various forms of Greek tortoises. Making something like a Red-foot from South America hibernate is far crueler than many of the things the laws are designed to prevent.

As for nice- Americans are generally considered a nice people... although occasionally obnoxious, short-sighted, etc.


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## Yvonne G (Sep 11, 2011)

Here's my opinion:

Someone who joins a forum has free choice...they have the option of tuning in or not tuning in. If we, as a group, tend to be opinionated, accusatory and aggressive, how long is that new member going to stick around? We have a better chance at changing a person's mind about tortoise keeping by being nice to them and gently suggesting changes, rather than being rude and obstinate.

Also, since we all live in different areas of the world, it would be impossible to have only one way to keep tortoises. Tom in the desert takes care of his sulcatas much differently than Jody in Florida, and yet both sulcatas are happy and healthy. 

I like to always keep an open mind.


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## Torty Mom (Sep 11, 2011)

Maybe it's just a lack of knowledge vs old school thinking ~ afraid to try new things and learn from your own or someone else mistakes.


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## dmarcus (Sep 11, 2011)

We as a world tend to become very defensive when someone is critical of us, its even worse if someone is looking for advise and help and they are only told what they are doing wrong. In a forum most new people know they are not doing things right, so they are looking for help and not to be told things they already know. 

You have to be tactful when making suggestions or pointing out what you see wrong, especially with new members. Yvonne has said it on several occasions, that the written word doesn't come across the way they were meant. New members get turned off from returning if they are welcomed with perceived attacks.

I think the difference between a good forum and a great forum its how its members are treated the openness to accepting new ideas and the willingness to help its members without making them feel like they are bad.


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## Tom (Sep 11, 2011)

Here's another point: If we were still doing things the way "they" said it should be done, you would NOT be seeing all these wonderful pictures of smooth sulcatas and leopards. A lot of times new and better things are discovered by people who do things unconventionally. For example: Richard Fife (he credits his wife) discovered and published the benefits of offering a humid hide box to what were once traditionally considered "desert" species. He was literally thrown out of conferences for such "blasphemy". A couple of decades before that he was asked to leave when he said that egg incubation temperature could influence the sex of the hatchlings, and had proof. 

The "one size fits all" concept rarely works in any situation.


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## Baoh (Sep 11, 2011)

From my perspective, a lot of this appears similar to congregations forming camps to escape persecution by others only to go on and do the same to yet others still. Of course, those involved in such would never see it that way.


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## Tom (Sep 11, 2011)

Baoh said:


> From my perspective, a lot of this appears similar to congregations forming camps to escape persecution by others only to go on and do the same to yet others still. Of course, those involved in such would never see it that way.



Your perspective makes no sense to me. The whole point of this thread is the OP stating how this forum is a "totally different mentality", than what you describe. I have been accused of a "my way or the highway" attitude in the past, so forgive me if it seems like this is directed at least in part toward me. This is complete non-sense. I welcome any and all alternative methods and view points that work. I've begged people, even my detractors, to use ANY method they want, and show positive results. Everything I see on this forum is tactful, helpful and generally non-judgmental. Apparently at least one other person agrees me me to the point that this thread was started.


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## Baoh (Sep 11, 2011)

Tom said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> > From my perspective, a lot of this appears similar to congregations forming camps to escape persecution by others only to go on and do the same to yet others still. Of course, those involved in such would never see it that way.
> ...



Tom, no one specific was in mind when I composed my post. That is why no one received specific mention. It is a pity that anyone would take a self-centered tack in response given such.

As for claiming agreement, I have no interest in a fallacy of argumentum ad populum.


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## Sky2Mina (Sep 11, 2011)

Thanks for your viewpoints so far, I appreciate it.



Madkins007 said:


> Making something like a Red-foot from South America hibernate is far crueler than many of the things the laws are designed to prevent.


I'm not suggesting that Europeans would hibernate Red-foot Tortoise. I don't think anyone would, unless they didn't know any better. But It's true that 90% keep either testudo hermanni or testudo graeca.
Some keep star tortoises, red foots etc. and for them it's ok to keep in an terrarium that could never reach the 200 square feet they 'require' for the testudos. That seems hypocritical to me.



> We have a better chance at changing a person's mind about tortoise keeping by being nice to them and gently suggesting changes, rather than being rude and obstinate.


Emyemys, I absolutely agree with you. Reading all the stuff on the German forums, I would never sign up there. 

Most people mean well for their pets, sometimes they just don't know any better.



> I think the difference between a good forum and a great forum its how its members are treated the openness to accepting new ideas and the willingness to help its members without making them feel like they are bad.


I agree. I love this forum, because of that. I also love that here people don't tell you what you can and can't do. 

(Most) German Forums (might be other european countries as well) they'll tell you, that you shouldn't get a tortoise if you can't meet the basic requirements (garden and outdoor keeping is the main factor). Personally I think a Greek Tortoise can be as happy on a big tortoise table as in a garden. I find it much crueler to tell a child that he/she can never touch the tortoise.



> From my perspective, a lot of this appears similar to congregations forming camps to escape persecution by others only to go on and do the same to yet others still. Of course, those involved in such would never see it that way.





> As for claiming agreement, I have no interest in a fallacy of argumentum ad populum


You're an academic, aren't you? I have to fight through this kind of language all the time during my studies. Why here? 
I had to read your first sentence 3 times and look up 2 words to get an idea what you're talking about. I'm sure you could say it in simple English. First I thought you're referring to concentration camps, but I don't think you would. 

Mina


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## Baoh (Sep 11, 2011)

Sky2Mina said:


> You're an academic, aren't you? I have to fight through this kind of language all the time during my studies. Why here?
> I had to read your first sentence 3 times and look up 2 words to get an idea what you're talking about. I'm sure you could say it in simple English. First I thought you're referring to concentration camps, but I don't think you would.
> 
> Mina



One gets out what one puts in, effort-wise.

With that said, I assure you that your grasp of English is far superior to my grasp of German.


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## ascott (Sep 11, 2011)

WOW  All I know is this, you attract more bees with honey.....as the old adage goes. 

I always feel that if someone is on a search for information and had questions, why not be open minded and try to offer all information up that, I and others here on this forum, the person can take into consideration and work out to accomodate their particular situation....


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## dmmj (Sep 11, 2011)

you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar
but I think sugar works best


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## ascott (Sep 11, 2011)

LMAO.....daaang, I always get the sayings all crossed....LOL Thanks for the helping hand... :shy:

Yeah, what Captain said


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## Sky2Mina (Sep 11, 2011)

Baoh said:


> One gets out what one puts in, effort-wise.


Sorry, Baoh, but I believe that ideas/arguments should be expressed clearly - even in academic writing but especially in forums, where there are members from various different backgrounds.
It's off topic though. Of course, you can use words however you like. I just don't agree with it. 







But does anyone of you - strongly - reject indoor housing? Of course you wouldn't criticize anyone harshly - but do you really think that all tortoises should be housed outdoors (weather permitting) and can't possibly life a happy life on a tortoise table inside?


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## Torty Mom (Sep 12, 2011)

Yes, I think they can have a happy life in a tort table, if all their husbandry needs are met of course......BUT....... a little sunshine when available ALWAYS feels good. Think about how you feel after a long bout of bad weather, then the sun comes out and it just makes you feel good ***sighs, because it's 100 outside*** 

Here where I live we get FOG, not regular fog, but FFFOOOGGGGGGGG, it stays for days, and days, and days. You can't see anything. It makes the kids at school funky, and even the adults after 3 or 4 days are funky. In the winter my little guys are in 24 /7 but as soon as it warms up, I toss everyone out! Even the human kids!  

I think what some peeps are trying to do is to mimic the torts natural life when they say "all torts outside 24/7", the more natural the better. But remember to each their own, and there will always be 4 sides to every story! 

I think this is a great thread, glad you brought it up. This is just my opinion for what it's worth!


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## jaizei (Sep 12, 2011)

Sky2Mina said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> > One gets out what one puts in, effort-wise.
> ...





I think that with few exceptions (sick, injured) all adult tortoises should be housed outside. I think hatchlings and yearlings should be outside as much as possible, but since they are more vulnerable, 24/7 might not be as feasible. If I lived somewhere where this wasn't possible then I wouldn't have tortoises.


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## jackrat (Sep 12, 2011)

dmmj said:


> you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar
> but I think sugar works best


And I know of something that draws even more flies.lol


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## Baoh (Sep 12, 2011)

Sky2Mina said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> > One gets out what one puts in, effort-wise.
> ...





I agree to disagree regarding the use of language. We all have different standards.

I think tortoises can be provided for to varying levels of satisfaction with an indoor enclosure. Less extensive accommodations may be needed for temporary or seasonal housing. More extensive accommodations may be more appropriate for indoor-only keeping. That also can apply to matters of size or species-specific environmental requirements. It is up to the keeper to be the judge of that. I would not let another dictate care terms, but I would always at the very least consider another person's methodology when forming or modifying my own.


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## Sky2Mina (Sep 12, 2011)

Torty Mom said:


> Yes, I think they can have a happy life in a tort table, if all their husbandry needs are met of course......BUT....... a little sunshine when available ALWAYS feels good.
> 
> I think this is a great thread, glad you brought it up. This is just my opinion for what it's worth!



Thank you Torty mom. I do agree with you. Of course if we can house our tortoise outside it's great and always better than indoors. 
I just don't think it's "fair" to tell someone they can't have a tortoise, because they don't have a garden. Yes, some people might argue it is egoistic to still want a tortoise without garden and limited access to real sunshine BUT in my opinion keeping pets in general is egoistic. We keep them because we like to have them around. Not the other way round (although some pets do enjoy being with humans ). 
As long as you provide them good UVB lights, good food and bring them outside whenever possible, I think they can still have a happy life. 



> I think that with few exceptions (sick, injured) all adult tortoises should be housed outside. I think hatchlings and yearlings should be outside as much as possible, but since they are more vulnerable, 24/7 might not be as feasible. If I lived somewhere where this wasn't possible then I wouldn't have tortoises.


Thank you. I see your point and agree that outside is always better. But I still keep a tortoise now, although I don't have a garden (planning a bigger balcony-enclosure though).
I like that this forum is so 'tolerant'. You say "this is what I do" but not "this is what you should do too".



> I agree to disagree regarding the use of language. We all have different standards.


That is true. 



> It is up to the keeper to be the judge of that. I would not let another dictate care terms, but I would always at the very least consider another person's methodology when forming or modifying my own.


Agreed. I just think it is difficult to not be dictated by others, if almost everyone follows "the one way" - at least in (German) forums. The ones that do keep their tortoises indoors or on their own terms don't write in forums. 

Thanks for all your viewpoints! I appreciate it.


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## Maggie Cummings (Sep 13, 2011)

I keep several tortoises inside. I care for them in the best way possible. I also have a large outdoor Sulcata. There is someone whom I love very much who agrees (mostly) with jaizei about keeping tortoises indoors, but she would never criticize me or insult me because some of my guys live inside. BUT, my animals are obviously healthy and well kept, and I get them outside almost daily. My way of tortoise keeping is my way and even tho I might disagree with someone elses way of tort keeping it's not my business to tell them how to keep their tortoises, UNLESS, the animals are in obvious disrepair, then I would most certainly speak my mind and suggest that their animals might benefit from a better way of tort keeping.

And that, my good friends, was spoken in American. I am not English, so I do not speak English, I am American, I live in America and I speak American...


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## Weda737 (Sep 13, 2011)

It's not hard being nice here, keep in mind the fact that even if the keeper is doing things all wrong, they wouldn't be on this forum at all if they didn't care about their animal. Usually it's just a case of misinformation and I know we are all glad to help out others with the same interests, Our love of our pets and concern for their well being.


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## mintybum (Sep 13, 2011)

Sky2Mina said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> So, there was something I was wondering about.
> 
> ...




i agree about this forum, im on another one and they are so critical, most dont even bother to answer you question, i love this forum so much more.
i think you sound like you could cause a rebellion, perhaphs its time for change, swing ya bra in the air lol


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## Yvonne G (Sep 13, 2011)

Sky2Mina said:


> But does anyone of you - strongly - reject indoor housing? Of course you wouldn't criticize anyone harshly - but do you really think that all tortoises should be housed outdoors (weather permitting) and can't possibly life a happy life on a tortoise table inside?



Me...me...me!!! I do!!! I firmly believe that all tortoises should have a main or primary home outside with a secondary home indoors for inclement weather. But I also respect your right to house your animals any way you want to.


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## mintybum (Sep 13, 2011)

i live in the uk with a tropical tortoise so it would be impossible to house outdoor completely ,if i oput him in a greenhouse isn't he indoors anyway?, i agree they should be outdoor as much as possible, my torty has a ramp on his pen and he roams the house when he feels like it, he is very active and sociable always following me round the house, i'd say he was very happy


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## EKLC (Sep 14, 2011)

I think keeping a tortoise outdoors is great, but if you put in the effort, you can cover your bases with an indoor tort.

I have a year old leopard tortoise. With regard to temperature, he is in my room, I ensure that it never dips below 80. Can't guarantee that outside, and I live in florida. Diet, I grow weeds and grasses in his enclosure, which is large enough for him to graze. Lighting, I use a MVB and take him outside once a day for exercise and sun. I don't have to worry about predators either, which is a legitimate concern here with hawks, snakes, racoons ,etc. 

I would take issue with anyone claiming I'm a cruel owner because I must live in an apartment for the time being.


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## Balboa (Sep 17, 2011)

An eternal conundrum....

laws, rules, regulations, and the taxpayer funds to enforce them vs self-regulation on the part of the people. It can be hard to find the balance between anarchy and totalitarianism. I resent laws that tell me what to do, but at the same time have to see the poor choices consumers make in a market free of laws. Anyone can buy a tortoise and stick them in a 10 gallon aquarium if they want to.... and people do.

I would strongly urge anyone who cannot allow their tortoises sizeable, naturalistic, outdoor enclosures to reconsider keeping them. Can they be kept happy indoors? Yes, but it is beyond the means of most keepers. Do I really want to see laws enforcing my opinions? Nope.

oops and oh yah,

Tag, wie gehts?
Ich habe mal in Koeln gewohnt, aber mein Deutsch ist nicht mehr so gut wie frueher mals. Dein Englisch ist Perfekt.


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## Sky2Mina (Sep 19, 2011)

Balboa said:


> Do I really want to see laws enforcing my opinions? Nope.
> 
> oops and oh yah,
> 
> ...





In Germany you need permits to get a tortoise, but for the testudos they are easy to get (I think). I guess it might be helpful - the more expensive or difficult a pet is to get - the higher the chances that people are going to read about their needs beforehand.

Dein deutsch ist super.  Freut mich jemanden im Forum zu sehen, der auch deutsch kann!


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## Neal (Sep 19, 2011)

I think it's more of a cultural thing. Every forum or group has their own methods and techniques of how they emphasize and push specific aspects of tortoise husbandry. It seems like the German forums you referenced use a more aggressive approach, while we here take a more tactful, "nicer" approach. We here emphasize high humidity on everyone that walks in here...whether it's necessary or not isn't the point here...the point is how it is presented, which is usually in a "nice" manner. Some people like that, some prefer a more aggressive approach. 

I like when others say that there is not one way to raise a healthy tortoise, and I can understand your frustration when dealing with those types of people who emphasize one magical way. I belong to tortoise groups with that mentality, a lot of the information shared in those settings makes me upset, but even there, good information comes up from time to time. So, in that sense, every group or forum has some value.


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## Jacqui (Sep 19, 2011)

Neal said:


> I think it's more of a cultural thing. Every forum or group has their own methods and techniques of how they emphasize and push specific aspects of tortoise husbandry. It seems like the German forums you referenced use a more aggressive approach, while we here take a more tactful, "nicer" approach. We here emphasize high humidity on everyone that walks in here...whether it's necessary or not isn't the point here...the point is how it is presented, which is usually in a "nice" manner. Some people like that, some prefer a more aggressive approach.
> 
> I like when others say that there is not one way to raise a healthy tortoise, and I can understand your frustration when dealing with those types of people who emphasize one magical way. I belong to tortoise groups with that mentality, a lot of the information shared in those settings makes me upset, but even there, good information comes up from time to time. So, in that sense, every group or forum has some value.



Nicely said and I very much agree with your points. Helps that I tend to be one of those who doesn't rush into the one way only mentality perhaps.   Would be nice if there was such a magical way, wouldn't it? *sigh* well we can all dream.


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