# Mixing species



## Yvonne G

We've talked about this a lot here on the Forum. I thought it would be beneficial to post a link to an article that comes from the Tortoise Trust web site:


http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/mixing.htm


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## Tom

Great article. Succinct.


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## Merrick

Good thing to share on this forum seems like somebody always is asking a question about mixing


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## TortieLuver

Excellent article that covered key points we as tortoise keepers have discussed in previous posts


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## Tidgy's Dad

Smashing article and excellent to paste for people.


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## Warhawk

Thanks for sharing the article.


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## Pearly

Yvonne thank you for sharing this article


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## Glory Bonilla

Really a nice article.


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## TammyJ

It's a very good and very important article! When I saw the title I thought not of co-existence so much as breeding hybrids, which can happen when species are mixed, right?


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## BrianWI

I don't like it. There are species whose ranges overlap in the wild. In the right setting, they could thrive together in captivity.


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## jaizei

BrianWI said:


> I don't like it. There are species whose ranges overlap in the wild. In the right setting, they could thrive together in captivity.



Think it's rubbish myself and doesn't hold up.


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## cmacusa3

BrianWI said:


> I don't like it. There are species whose ranges overlap in the wild. In the right setting, they could thrive together in captivity.


 Well Crap! I have to agree with Brian. Dang it!!


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## BrianWI

Let's just start with eastern box turtles and three toed boxies. Will they not thrive together? Would you not keep a red eared slider with a painted turtle? When rules are absolute, they are usually wrong.


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## TammyJ

I have heard and kind of tend to agree, on knee jerk, that mixing species is wrong, but am not sure why.

Isn't that partly how species have evolved and new species formed? Note I said "partly".

Of course, I don't think that a particular location specific species should be mixed with a different one from a different natural location.

Really an interesting subject. And really, I have no idea.


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## dmmj

the theory of evolution is basically when an animal has a new adaptation that allows them to survove better than the previous versions. Mixing species are not 
evolutionary Advantage as far as I know and I'm not a scientist. Though I do play one on TV


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## sbRussian

I always look at forums discussing this subject. When I became a first time tort owner, I was so excited about my new addition. I really thought Soso must be "lonely" being by herself and always eating or sleeping....How's that for an unknowledgeable Russian Tort owner for ya?! I'm very glad I did a lot of research, talked to vets, and had posts like this to guide me in my decision NOT to try it. Two years later, my Russian (named Soso) and I, are much more knowledgeable about her kind, and have learned that she prefers only my company....maybe not by choice


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## Benito

Guess I am doing things wrong by mixing them


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## dmmj

Benito said:


> View attachment 183425
> View attachment 183426
> 
> 
> Guess I am doing things wrong by mixing them


 is that rhetorical or do you want an answer?


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## Benito

I think in some cases you should not mix them. But some species by chance would overlap in the wild anyways. So in my opinion it is not cut and dry. I have 2 small aldabras that have 0 contact with the Leopards or Sulcatas. Those 2 would never meet in the wild. Seems a lot of people are against it in every case. But life is not black and white.


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## mproko

Benito said:


> I think in some cases you should not mix them. But some species by chance would overlap in the wild anyways. So in my opinion it is not cut and dry. I have 2 small aldabras that have 0 contact with the Leopards or Sulcatas. Those 2 would never meet in the wild. Seems a lot of people are against it in every case. But life is not black and white.


I'm pretty sure the philly zoo keeps Galapagos and Aldabra together


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## Yvonne G

Zoos are often wrong in the way they take care of their animals, but bear in mind that they have vets on site to handle any problems that occur.


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## wellington

Benito said:


> View attachment 183425
> View attachment 183426
> 
> 
> Guess I am doing things wrong by mixing them


Yes you are. More so that your sullies will eventually bully your leopards to sickness or death. Hopefully you will keep a close eye out for this seeing you want to put them at risk.


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## itiswhatitis

I see it like this. In some cases this might be ok. But comparing your backyard and the wild are so different. Correct in wild they will overlap. But the wild is the wild. A lot space to get out of the way and go as far as one may please when sick of the others crap lol. A backyard and enclosure a species can only go so far. They are forced to deal with the stress if they are stressing. But again as with people or animal I think it's possible for any individual personality to get along with each other. They will either get along or they won't. But there's a difference in being forced to in backyard or given the choice to leave in the wild.

It's like being stuck in car with someone you can't stand for 3 hours ready to pull your hair out or saying you suck I'll take my own car.


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## Tom

Benito said:


> I think in some cases you should not mix them. But some species by chance would overlap in the wild anyways. So in my opinion it is not cut and dry. I have 2 small aldabras that have 0 contact with the Leopards or Sulcatas. Those 2 would never meet in the wild. Seems a lot of people are against it in every case. But life is not black and white.



Sulcatas and leopards do not overlap in the wild, and those two species are behaviorally very incompatible. Diet is different too, in that sulcatas will need a lot more grass and grass hay as adults.


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## Crzt4torts

mproko said:


> I'm pretty sure the philly zoo keeps Galapagos and Aldabra together


You are correct, the Phili zoo has them together. They are gorgeous! They are usually scattered about their habitat when outdoors, keeping to themselves. Indoors during winter they are more frequently next to someone else. They actually have a roller railway they can roll them inside on.( one of my sons attends college close to the zoo, so when I visit it is a typical stop for us)


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## tglazie

Okay, so I've never seen a picture of a wild sulcata and a wild leopard walking together. Not to sound like a smart ***, but I've read enough reptile garbage attempting to pass itself off as fact that I've grown rather skeptical over the years, and just because the range map of two different animals appears to show overlap doesn't make it so. Also, to the painted turtle/red ear point, I've never seen these animals coexisting either. Sure, maybe it's true that red ears now live within the range of all four subspecies of painted turtle, but this isn't the natural way of things by any means. Red ears basically lived in the watersheds between the lower Rio Grande and the Mississippi. They are not natural residents of Connecticut, Ohio, or California, all places where they were released and are reeking havoc on the native turtle populations. The only painted turtle that shares range with the red ear is the southern painted turtle, and I wouldn't recommend mixing those two types given the enormous size differences that ultimately result. 

Sure, some species ranges overlap, but this doesn't necessarily mean that they occupy the same niche in the same habitat, which is basically what you're asking them to do in most captive situations. In the waterways near my home in South Texas, there are released Yellowbellies, released painted turtles, released Louisiana red ears, Texas cooters, Rio Grande red ears, Rio Grande softshells, common snappers, and yellow mud turtles. I often see multiple species basking on the same log. But I wouldn't dream of keeping any of these together. Is it natural for snappers and cooters to share the same waterway? Sure, it often is. But it is also natural for snappers to prey upon anything that moves. There's a reason baby turtles relegate themselves to the overgrown reeds of the shallows. Disease is also an entirely natural phenomenon, and pathogens pass between different species sharing an environment all the time. 

First things first. I'm a solitary tortoise/turtle kind of person. The only chelonians I keep in groups are hatchlings and juveniles. As soon as I see the slightest tendency toward aggression (passive aggressive dominant animals using intimidation tactics, outright mounting or biting, or a change in behavior by submissive animals), I start separation. Since starting this practice back in the late nineties, I haven't had a single outbreak of disease in my colony, which I couldn't say when I was keeping my largest marginated male with the other females. I was constantly having girls catching respiratory infections, suffering bites and wounds that I would attempt to quell via temporary separation. Since I've made every tortoise master of his or her domain, presented to other members of his/her respective species for very limited contact for breeding/combat purposes, I've had no problems. Single species groups/single animal keeping strategies are infinitely easier to maintain, from a behavioral and health management perspective. So yeah, as someone who has been keeping tortoises for three decades now, I say make things easier on yourself, don't mix the species. 

T.G.


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## tglazie

I've also never understood the appeal of keeping different species together. I mean, is it a space issue? A cost issue when it comes to building a new enclosure for the animal? I've always considered it a rule of thumb that if you have more than one tortoise, you have to allot for the need for more than one enclosure. And that is what I've done for the past sixteen years. Also, sorry for the terse language earlier. 

T.G.


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## BrianWI

The whole thread illustrates one point: the hard "one turtle/ tort per enclosure" rule isn't always correct. There are species and situations that work outside that rule. The same with "no mixing species". There are exceptions. But it takes a lot of pre-planning and careful execution.


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## MichaelaW

tglazie said:


> Okay, so I've never seen a picture of a wild sulcata and a wild leopard walking together. Not to sound like a smart ***, but I've read enough reptile garbage attempting to pass itself off as fact that I've grown rather skeptical over the years, and just because the range map of two different animals appears to show overlap doesn't make it so. Also, to the painted turtle/red ear point, I've never seen these animals coexisting either. Sure, maybe it's true that red ears now live within the range of all four subspecies of painted turtle, but this isn't the natural way of things by any means. Red ears basically lived in the watersheds between the lower Rio Grande and the Mississippi. They are not natural residents of Connecticut, Ohio, or California, all places where they were released and are reeking havoc on the native turtle populations. The only painted turtle that shares range with the red ear is the southern painted turtle, and I wouldn't recommend mixing those two types given the enormous size differences that ultimately result.
> 
> Sure, some species ranges overlap, but this doesn't necessarily mean that they occupy the same niche in the same habitat, which is basically what you're asking them to do in most captive situations. In the waterways near my home in South Texas, there are released Yellowbellies, released painted turtles, released Louisiana red ears, Texas cooters, Rio Grande red ears, Rio Grande softshells, common snappers, and yellow mud turtles. I often see multiple species basking on the same log. But I wouldn't dream of keeping any of these together. Is it natural for snappers and cooters to share the same waterway? Sure, it often is. But it is also natural for snappers to prey upon anything that moves. There's a reason baby turtles relegate themselves to the overgrown reeds of the shallows. Disease is also an entirely natural phenomenon, and pathogens pass between different species sharing an environment all the time.
> 
> First things first. I'm a solitary tortoise/turtle kind of person. The only chelonians I keep in groups are hatchlings and juveniles. As soon as I see the slightest tendency toward aggression (passive aggressive dominant animals using intimidation tactics, outright mounting or biting, or a change in behavior by submissive animals), I start separation. Since starting this practice back in the late nineties, I haven't had a single outbreak of disease in my colony, which I couldn't say when I was keeping my largest marginated male with the other females. I was constantly having girls catching respiratory infections, suffering bites and wounds that I would attempt to quell via temporary separation. Since I've made every tortoise master of his or her domain, presented to other members of his/her respective species for very limited contact for breeding/combat purposes, I've had no problems. Single species groups/single animal keeping strategies are infinitely easier to maintain, from a behavioral and health management perspective. So yeah, as someone who has been keeping tortoises for three decades now, I say make things easier on yourself, don't mix the species.
> 
> T.G.


Well said.


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## tglazie

BrianWI said:


> The whole thread illustrates one point: the hard "one turtle/ tort per enclosure" rule isn't always correct. There are species and situations that work outside that rule. The same with "no mixing species". There are exceptions. But it takes a lot of pre-planning and careful execution.



I don't think this thread illustrates that point at all. One turtle/tortoise per enclosure is always the safest option, which to my mind makes it always correct. With all other aspects of care addressed, it's the one tactic a person can exercise and never go wrong. The alternative offers plenty of possibilities for things to go wrong, even if everything else is absolutely perfect. I kept Big Gino and his two lady friends in a seventy five foot by seventy five foot enclosure, with hills, six shelters, six watering holes kept fresh by drip system, and a bunch of overgrown areas filled with graze, and he was the only tortoise doing well. The others hid all the time, were always stressed, and always ate half as much as he did. I was always temporarily separating him, especially in late spring when his aggression levels would just skyrocket into a state of constant harassment. He was transforming those ladies' lives into a living nightmare. Once I separated him and then separated each of the ladies to their own respective enclosures, once I redesigned my entire layout, all of my animals put on weight, every one of them stopped hiding as much as before. 

A tortoise by itself will not be the victim of bullying and physical trauma, disease transmission by other tortoises, or cross species impregnation by another species of tortoise. A tortoise by itself is healthier in every way when compared to an animal kept in a group with others, where there will always be winners and losers. I'm a busy man. Unlike some, I can't be around my tortoises twenty four seven to ensure that they don't bully each other. I introduce the animals periodically for supervised interactions to ensure that they can engage in combat and other social rituals that assure they aren't bored, but when I compare the state of my animals from when I kept them together versus when I kept them apart, I can tell you from my years of experience that keeping these animals apart was the best decision I ever made. 

Sure, you can argue that keeping animals in groups or that mixing species isn't always a completely misguided idea and that with careful planning, round the clock supervision, and a watchful eye over group dynamics, it is doable. But I just don't understand why, when the alternative is so much safer and easier. I mean, I like watching my margies hang out in a group, sure, but if I want to see that, I move them all to the big grazing area, pull up a chair, and keep an eye on them, playing referee to any fights that may occur. I then move them back to their respective large, planted enclosures where they can return to their own shelters, secure in the safety of their own dens. This makes things so much easier. Feeding is also infinitely easier this way, given that I can ensure Big Gino and Little Gino don't hog all the cactus and hibiscus flowers, which they would do when I kept them with their respective harems. Those two are giant jerks, and it is better for everyone that their giant jerkness is unleashed only on a limited basis under the supervision of a watchful protector. 

T.G.


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## tglazie

Apologies, I'm not trying to be as big a jerk as my boy Big Gino, but I just feel very strongly about this, that anyone new to tortoise keeping understand that keeping tortoises and learning the ropes when it comes to knowing your tortoise's individual needs is a very long and challenging learning process. As advanced keepers, those of us with a wealth of experience should be completely honest with keepers new to the hobby. And I am being completely honest when I say that mixing of species and keeping of groups has never worked for me. Everyone I've known who has mixed species of tortoise has had their situation result in losses that can be directly attributed to the practice of mixing. My uncle had a leopard tortoise he allowed to live in the same enclosure as a group of juvenile sulcatas. She passed a respiratory illness, for which she was showing no symptoms, that quickly spread to the rest of them, dropping every one of those poor kids into an early grave. The vet determined her to be a passive carrier, said she should live in isolation. Another friend of mine who kept redfoots and sulcatas decided he was going to start a colony of Russians. One day, two of his largest females contracted some spinal wasting disease that left their hind legs immobile. Both girls died. The vet said he had no idea how to treat this disease, but that it seemed to affect tortoises held in large collections. I had this same disease strike my then twelve year old sulcata Jerry (God rest him), and he died a short time later. This was at the time that I decided to give up a number of my adopted animals, get out of the informal fostering role, and focus on marginated tortoises. Maintaining all margies and one ibera Greek is so much simpler. 

I know a number of experienced keepers who managed to assemble same species groups that have managed to establish a pecking order on a large enough piece of property. I'm glad this worked for them, but this has never worked for me, and my misfortune in this regard must be considered as a real possibility. 

T.G.


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## BrianWI

Wow, despite that long post, my boxies are a very harmonious group and I have had mix species water turtle ponds that were equally successful. I'll assume I am just a better keeper 

I like seeing the large groups of redfoots on here. They always look good to me. Wish I could maintain a herd of them here.

Or aldabras.


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## tglazie

Well, you know what they say about making assumptions, but I already made the mistake of using that terse term in a previous post, and I promised to mind my manners. And good for you on your success with your projects. But surely you can see that this won't work for everyone and that keeping a solitary turtle/tortoise is never "incorrect." 

T.G.


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## tglazie

Also, Brian, does your colony produce a lot of hybrids? Do you keep just eastern and three toes together, or do you throw Floridas, gulf coasts, deserts, and ornates into the mix? What are your thoughts on the preservation of species specific or sub-specific traits? 

T.G.


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## Arlenetorturtle

Lots of mixed feelings here, I think it is best to keep apart, however not always possible, best advice, proceed with caution, can seriously injur tortoises if any are put together, same breed and mixed. They should all be loners. I've had to break up many fights and put in time out!!


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## Benito

I seperated my sulcatas and leopard outdoor enclosure today. After reading all the reasons why Not to keep them together I figured better safe then sorry. They always spent nights seperated. But during the day they use to mingle. Now they have zero contact with each other.


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## Arlenetorturtle

BrianWI said:


> Let's just start with eastern box turtles and three toed boxies. Will they not thrive together? Would you not keep a red eared slider with a painted turtle? When rules are absolute, they are usually wrong.


I keep 3 toe box turtles with Ornate box turtles and they actually only associate with their own kind, kinda funny, they are prejudice!! They have been together for about 8 years!


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## Tom

tglazie said:


> Okay, so I've never seen a picture of a wild sulcata and a wild leopard walking together. Not to sound like a smart ***, but I've read enough reptile garbage attempting to pass itself off as fact that I've grown rather skeptical over the years, and just because the range map of two different animals appears to show overlap doesn't make it so. Also, to the painted turtle/red ear point, I've never seen these animals coexisting either. Sure, maybe it's true that red ears now live within the range of all four subspecies of painted turtle, but this isn't the natural way of things by any means. Red ears basically lived in the watersheds between the lower Rio Grande and the Mississippi. They are not natural residents of Connecticut, Ohio, or California, all places where they were released and are reeking havoc on the native turtle populations. The only painted turtle that shares range with the red ear is the southern painted turtle, and I wouldn't recommend mixing those two types given the enormous size differences that ultimately result.
> 
> Sure, some species ranges overlap, but this doesn't necessarily mean that they occupy the same niche in the same habitat, which is basically what you're asking them to do in most captive situations. In the waterways near my home in South Texas, there are released Yellowbellies, released painted turtles, released Louisiana red ears, Texas cooters, Rio Grande red ears, Rio Grande softshells, common snappers, and yellow mud turtles. I often see multiple species basking on the same log. But I wouldn't dream of keeping any of these together. Is it natural for snappers and cooters to share the same waterway? Sure, it often is. But it is also natural for snappers to prey upon anything that moves. There's a reason baby turtles relegate themselves to the overgrown reeds of the shallows. Disease is also an entirely natural phenomenon, and pathogens pass between different species sharing an environment all the time.
> 
> First things first. I'm a solitary tortoise/turtle kind of person. The only chelonians I keep in groups are hatchlings and juveniles. As soon as I see the slightest tendency toward aggression (passive aggressive dominant animals using intimidation tactics, outright mounting or biting, or a change in behavior by submissive animals), I start separation. Since starting this practice back in the late nineties, I haven't had a single outbreak of disease in my colony, which I couldn't say when I was keeping my largest marginated male with the other females. I was constantly having girls catching respiratory infections, suffering bites and wounds that I would attempt to quell via temporary separation. Since I've made every tortoise master of his or her domain, presented to other members of his/her respective species for very limited contact for breeding/combat purposes, I've had no problems. Single species groups/single animal keeping strategies are infinitely easier to maintain, from a behavioral and health management perspective. So yeah, as someone who has been keeping tortoises for three decades now, I say make things easier on yourself, don't mix the species.
> 
> T.G.



I have been having this argument for soooooo many years. We've shared some of the same experiences, but you elaborated upon them so much better than I've been able to. I've always maintained that those people who mix species and say they have not had a problem, either _have_ had a problem and either didn't realize it, or blamed it on something else, _or_ they just haven't had a problem yet.

I completely agree with your assessment of the sum of this discussion: Housing them individually is the safest and simplest way to go about it. Housing them in groups is a larger risk any way you look at it. Mixing species simply increases this risk.

Thank you for taking the time. I hope all reading this have gained some knowledge from you sharing your experiences.


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## tglazie

Thank you, Tom, very kind words. Indeed, I've often felt like a broken record on this particular subject. Always good to know another, so that we may repeat the wisdom gained from years of experience, scratchy as a cat post. Interestingly, I just got done conversing with someone who purchased one of my yearling margies. Turns out, her other yearling that she acquired as a hatchling came down with a respiratory illness, and she was wondering if any of my animals had a history of such. When I asked her about the setup, she said that she had been keeping the two tortoises in the same eight by ten outdoor enclosure. I asked how long she had been keeping them as a pair and if she noticed any change in behavior in either animal, to which she responded, unsurprisingly, that she did, that her established animal started shying away from the newcomer since the introduction two months ago after a two week quarantine period, that she began eating less and hiding more. It was then I had to break it to her, the "pairs create conflict" talk. She says she will separate them, that the vet has her first animal on a course of baytril injections. She's kicking herself, given that this could have most likely all been avoided with less than a hundred dollars in construction materials and one afternoon's work. Now, time will tell if this separation will result in the established animal recovering and resuming it's original state, and we may never know if the tortoise became ill due to the stress of a competitor or the rainy weather that happened upon my region these past weeks (certainly a combination of both, I'd suspect), but to my mind, there is a strong possibility that the introduction of an invader played a role in the established tortoise's illness, that the risk of keeping these two tortoises in the same pen was a risk I would deem unacceptable. 

I don't know, I guess I got a lot of practice at these arguments while posing them against my old man and uncle, two of the most stubborn men you'd ever meet. My old man grew up in California keeping various American tortoises, Deserts of various types and Texas tortoises. At one point he had three animals. Made all the classic mistakes, painting the shells, never securing the fencing, lots of escapes. Luckily his suburban yard grew plenty of natural graze, given all the iceberg lettuce he fed those poor beasts. 

When I approached tortoise keeping as a seven year old kid, I didn't have any tortoises at all, but I wanted to learn everything, especially after seeing them in the zoo and hearing all of my old man's stories about them. When I was nine, we were stationed at Incirlik Air Base in Turkey, which was surrounded by scrub lands that were, at the time, prime ibera habitat. When we got back stateside, I was dead set on getting one as a pet. I spent three years collecting books filled with misinformation that often contradicted itself. It wasn't until 1995, when I was 12, going on 13, that I picked up Brian Pursall's Mediterranean Tortoises. That book has a lot of bad information in it as well, but it was the first book I had ever read that had any actual good information in it. After that, I was all about natural graze and outdoor keeping, despite my old man's objections. 

Ultimately, my old man got back into tortoise keeping in a big way after he saw that I could keep Graecus, my oldest, alive for all those years. Only problem was that his and my care philosophies always had serious differences, so we butted heads constantly. He often picked up tortoises from petshops on impulse, and as a kid who loved tortoises, it was hard to see this as a problem, until I started arguing that the new animal had to be set up in it's own enclosure and that mad man Graecus didn't need anymore "friends" to beat into submission. One of the big issues of contention was the keeping of different species together. In my attempts to avoid turning this post into a novel, let's just say I not only convinced my old man, but also my uncle (though this was, unfortunately, after some unfortunate incidences, which I've outlined here and on various other posts). Now, my uncle's redfoots, leopards, and sulcatas are all living in single species groups. I've yet to convince him to keep his beasts individually, but hey, this is tortoise keeping. Time is what it's all about, and given enough of it, everyone finds the opportunity to look over their routine with a fresh set of eyes and make a few changes. 

T.G.


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## BrianWI

tglazie said:


> Also, Brian, does your colony produce a lot of hybrids? Do you keep just eastern and three toes together, or do you throw Floridas, gulf coasts, deserts, and ornates into the mix? What are your thoughts on the preservation of species specific or sub-specific traits?
> 
> T.G.


Preservation? Do you think your pet hobby is preservation? It is not. And no, I have ZERO problems with hybrids. And your argument about adding non-compatible species is really lame.


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## tglazie

Well, Brian, I meant no offense. I was just presenting my argument based upon my own experiences, which is more than I can say for your posts in this thread, which are nothing more than a series of declarative statements backed up by no justification or evidence whatsoever. For instance, your notion that the hobby isn't a part and parcel of preservation takes a giant dump on the work of Chris and countless others who do conservation work and attempt to preserve local forms for the future, given the dire outlook most of these species face in the wild. Many species are losing ground, especially in east Asia, and I believe captive breeding and eventual rerelease is the only hope for many species. Breeding turtles and tortoises in captivity also reduces the stress on wild populations. Were it not for captive breeding, my favorite species, the marginated tortoise, would be unavailable in captivity today, and were it not for the work of captive keepers, civilization's collective knowledge of these animals would be substantially less as well. And I suspected that you didn't have any qualms about hybridization, but unlike you, I don't go around foolishly assuming the nature of other's views. And look, if you want to insult me by saying my statements are "lame" without actually addressing exactly what fault you find in them, go right ahead. Insulting my argument doesn't refute it, and you can't deny that keeping a turtle/tortoise by itself is "incorrect." This isn't a playground, and we aren't five years old. Calling what I say lame isn't going to accomplish anything, but hey, if you've got a problem with me or what I've said, that's on you, partner. 

T.G.


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## Tom

tglazie said:


> Well, Brian, I meant no offense. I was just presenting my argument based upon my own experiences, which is more than I can say for your posts in this thread, which are nothing more than a series of declarative statements backed up by no justification or evidence whatsoever. For instance, your notion that the hobby isn't a part and parcel of preservation takes a giant dump on the work of Chris and countless others who do conservation work and attempt to preserve local forms for the future, given the dire outlook most of these species face in the wild. Many species are losing ground, especially in east Asia, and I believe captive breeding and eventual rerelease is the only hope for many species. Breeding turtles and tortoises in captivity also reduces the stress on wild populations. Were it not for captive breeding, my favorite species, the marginated tortoise, would be unavailable in captivity today, and were it not for the work of captive keepers, civilization's collective knowledge of these animals would be substantially less as well.



Many good points here. Chris is a fine example of the kind of work that all of us should strive for. I've been and admirer of his work and his tortoises for several years now.

I'm doing the same with my SA leopards, Sudan sulcatas, and to a lesser degree because I don't know the localities, my Burmese stars. Captive breeding is the only thing saving Geochelone platynota from extinction. Literally.


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## tglazie

That's great, Tom. Burmese stars have always been one of my dream tortoises. It is truly heartbreaking to see their wild status in such dire straits, but seeing more and more folks who have had success in reproducing them has made me very hopeful for the species' future prospects. Hopefully we folks in the tortoise community are able to properly identify and save what few local forms remain. 

T.G.


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## Tom

Double post...


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## MichaelaW

Tom said:


> Many good points here. Chris is a fine example of the kind of work that all of us should strive for. I've been and admirer of his work and his tortoises for several years now.
> 
> I'm doing the same with my SA leopards, Sudan sulcatas, and to a lesser degree because I don't know the localities, my Burmese stars. Captive breeding is the only thing saving Geochelone platynota from extinction. Literally.


Agreed! Chris is an great example for us all. He is an incredible person.


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## BrianWI

tglazie said:


> Well, Brian, I meant no offense. I was just presenting my argument based upon my own experiences, which is more than I can say for your posts in this thread, which are nothing more than a series of declarative statements backed up by no justification or evidence whatsoever. For instance, your notion that the hobby isn't a part and parcel of preservation takes a giant dump on the work of Chris and countless others who do conservation work and attempt to preserve local forms for the future, given the dire outlook most of these species face in the wild. Many species are losing ground, especially in east Asia, and I believe captive breeding and eventual rerelease is the only hope for many species. Breeding turtles and tortoises in captivity also reduces the stress on wild populations. Were it not for captive breeding, my favorite species, the marginated tortoise, would be unavailable in captivity today, and were it not for the work of captive keepers, civilization's collective knowledge of these animals would be substantially less as well. And I suspected that you didn't have any qualms about hybridization, but unlike you, I don't go around foolishly assuming the nature of other's views. And look, if you want to insult me by saying my statements are "lame" without actually addressing exactly what fault you find in them, go right ahead. Insulting my argument doesn't refute it, and you can't deny that keeping a turtle/tortoise by itself is "incorrect." This isn't a playground, and we aren't five years old. Calling what I say lame isn't going to accomplish anything, but hey, if you've got a problem with me or what I've said, that's on you, partner.
> 
> T.G.


The problem is your arguments are so loaded with logical fallacies that they aren't worth a dang. That is hardly my fault.

You keeping torts as pets will NEVER EVER EVER save the species. Nothing you will ever do or work with will be released back to the wild and save wild populations. If you think that, you are completely mistaken. You simply do not know what you are talking about and are trying to sound grandiose. Sorry, that is all the truth. You just have pet turtles, nothing more. You are not doing conservation work. Let's stop pretending it is different.


----------



## Yvonne G

There's no need to talk like that, Brian. You can make your point just as well without trying to make the other person feel small.


----------



## BrianWI

Yvonne G said:


> There's no need to talk like that, Brian. You can make your point just as well without trying to make the other person feel small.


Yvonne,

I made ZERO insults. I told the truth. Pet turtles DOES NOT EQUAL conservation. 99.99999% of the people who have pet turtles and tortoises have nothing to do with conservation. Let's take a count of the people on this board who have had their tortoises reintroduced into the wild as a conservation effort. Share copies of the permits with us for verification.

Don't get mad at me because I won't buy into these false narratives. He talks about not being on a playground in his post. Then stop pretending. Simple as that.

He wants to argue that torts should live alone. But there are some EXCELLENT threads where keepers have a huge heard of redfoots living well. Nice groups of boxies doing well. There is a thread on a huge pond build with multiple species of turtles, all that look great. Go tell them how wrong it is.


----------



## wellington

BrianWI said:


> Yvonne,
> 
> I made ZERO insults. I told the truth. Pet turtles DOES NOT EQUAL conservation. 99.99999% of the people who have pet turtles and tortoises have nothing to do with conservation. Let's take a count of the people on this board who have had their tortoises reintroduced into the wild as a conservation effort. Share copies of the permits with us for verification.
> 
> Don't get mad at me because I won't buy into these false narratives. He talks about not being on a playground in his post. Then stop pretending. Simple as that.
> 
> He wants to argue that torts should live alone. But there are some EXCELLENT threads where keepers have a huge heard of redfoots living well. Nice groups of boxies doing well. There is a thread on a huge pond build with multiple species of turtles, all that look great. Go tell them how wrong it is.


You don't have to stop buying into anything. You do have to stop being so rude and belittling other members!
Btw, having a pet tortoise that is being bred, does save a species. They may not be let go back into the wild, but if we own them, breed them, they can't become extinct!


----------



## BrianWI

wellington said:


> You don't have to stop buying into anything. You do have to stop being so rude and belittling other members!
> Btw, having a pet tortoise that is being bred, does save a species. They may not be let go back into the wild, but if we own them, breed them, they can't become extinct!


So you equate an animal existing in your enclosure as being saved? Well, then lets stop worrying about habitat loss, etc.! If the truth is rude to you, maybe your viewpoint needs adjusting?


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## BrianWI

Seems the clique is attacking again because I won't agree to their demands that I agree with every stance they take.


----------



## Yvonne G

BrianWI said:


> Yvonne,
> 
> I made ZERO insults. I told the truth. Pet turtles DOES NOT EQUAL conservation. 99.99999% of the people who have pet turtles and tortoises have nothing to do with conservation. Let's take a count of the people on this board who have had their tortoises reintroduced into the wild as a conservation effort. Share copies of the permits with us for verification.
> 
> Don't get mad at me because I won't buy into these false narratives. He talks about not being on a playground in his post. Then stop pretending. Simple as that.
> 
> He wants to argue that torts should live alone. But there are some EXCELLENT threads where keepers have a huge heard of redfoots living well. Nice groups of boxies doing well. There is a thread on a huge pond build with multiple species of turtles, all that look great. Go tell them how wrong it is.



Your facts, and how you perceive them, were ok. It's just the way you presented them. You didn't have to say his arguments aren't worth a dang. And if you're going to say the arguments are full of fallacies, then it might be a good idea to say what those fallacies are and how they are fallacies. You didn't have to say he doesn't know what he's talking about and he's just trying to sound grandiose. This makes YOU sound grandiose.

It's quite ok for you to have a different opinion, to use coil shaped bulbs and mix your species, but be a little more diplomatic in the way you talk to those who don't share those beliefs.


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## leigti

BrianWI said:


> Seems the clique is attacking again because I won't agree to their demands that I agree with every stance they take.


I think you just want to start a fight. You like riling people up. You state your opinions as if they are facts, and treat everybody else's facts like they are crap. I don't do absolutely everything the way that many people say it should be done when it comes to how I picture my animals, but I appreciate eight hearing different views and viewpoints. And I like some facts to go along with the anecdotal information. You say there are clicks here on the forum, welcome to life. There's also a group of people that know what they're doing and are willing to share their experiences and give good advice. What exactly are you doing?


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## leigti

Captive breeding can stop species from going extinct. It may or may not help with the species going extinct in the wild. But there's only so much one person can do to help with habitat destruction etc. I think captive breeding is a good thing. I don't want to see any species go extinct in the wild, but it would be even worse if they were extinct everywhere.


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## BrianWI

Yvonne G said:


> Your facts, and how you perceive them, were ok. It's just they way you presented them. You didn't have to say his arguments aren't worth a dang. And if you're going to say the arguments are full of fallacies, then it might be a good idea to say what those fallacies are and how they are fallacies. You didn't have to say he doesn't know what he's talking about and he's just trying to sound grandiose. This makes YOU sound grandiose.
> 
> It's quite ok for you to have a different opinion, to use coil shaped bulbs and mix your species, but be a little more diplomatic in the way you talk to those who don't share those beliefs.


If I were to point out all the logical fallacies in his arguments, this would be a thread on logical fallacies. If you truly want me to teach these people to debate and make valid arguments, make sure you have thought through this carefully. Because, in truth, his arguments are very poor. I will give you an example here, unrelated to this post, to help your decision.

Tom constantly says that despite MOUNDS of scientific test data, he is right because he has "seen it" hurt tortoises eyes. No, he can't produce a bad bulb, but it must be true because he experienced it. That is an anecdotal fallacy and therefore a poor argument, a logical fallacy.

Read https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

Is this what you want?


----------



## BrianWI

leigti said:


> Captive breeding can stop species from going extinct. It may or may not help with the species going extinct in the wild. But there's only so much one person can do to help with habitat destruction etc. I think captive breeding is a good thing. I don't want to see any species go extinct in the wild, but it would be even worse if they were extinct everywhere.


When you breed pet turtles, you only get more pet turtles. It is not conservation. If you think it is, you are wrong. Sorry?


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## leigti

I don't like intentionally mixing species, unlike dogs for example, tortoises are naturally different depending on where they live. We don't need to domesticate them make a bunch of designer tortoises. I think it is important to keep the gene pool "pure" whatever that means.


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## wellington

BrianWI said:


> So you equate an animal existing in your enclosure as being saved? Well, then lets stop worrying about habitat loss, etc.! If the truth is rude to you, maybe your viewpoint needs adjusting?


Did did I say anything about habitat? Read what is written, not what you already have formed in your head. All I said! If we own them or breed them, then they can't go extinct!! That's the only statement of yours I disputed!!
On another note. I have asked the following of you before, and received nothing. When you dispute people, say things about their statements being so wrong. You really should show some proof up your own. Otherwise you are guilty of the same thing you are saying about the person you are disputing. 
All you need to do to get along here is get your point across without belittling!! It's that stinking easy!


----------



## BrianWI

leigti said:


> I think you just want to start a fight. You like riling people up. You state your opinions as if they are facts, and treat everybody else's facts like they are crap. I don't do absolutely everything the way that many people say it should be done when it comes to how I picture my animals, but I appreciate eight hearing different views and viewpoints. And I like some facts to go along with the anecdotal information. You say there are clicks here on the forum, welcome to life. There's also a group of people that know what they're doing and are willing to share their experiences and give good advice. What exactly are you doing?



No, the problem only happens when I disagree with the clique. That is not coincidence. People sometimes cling to a point of view and get angry when challenged. Then they make poor arguments to back up their "facts". Then they get mad when their arguments are challenged as being poor. Then the clique will refuse to let it go. Mob mentality ensues. Pretty common, think Michael Brown.


----------



## wellington

Yvonne G said:


> Your facts, and how you perceive them, were ok. It's just the way you presented them. You didn't have to say his arguments aren't worth a dang. And if you're going to say the arguments are full of fallacies, then it might be a good idea to say what those fallacies are and how they are fallacies. You didn't have to say he doesn't know what he's talking about and he's just trying to sound grandiose. This makes YOU sound grandiose.
> 
> It's quite ok for you to have a different opinion, to use coil shaped bulbs and mix your species, but be a little more diplomatic in the way you talk to those who don't share those beliefs.


Not really sure Yvonne he had any "facts". His opinion yes, I didn't see any facts!


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## Yvonne G

BrianWI said:


> Is this what you want?



No. It would help explain it if you would point out what statement was false. And then show why it's false.


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## BrianWI

wellington said:


> Did did I say anything about habitat? Read what is written, not what you already have formed in your head. All I said! If we own them or breed them, then they can't go extinct!! That's the only statement of yours I disputed!!
> On another note. I have asked the following of you before, and received nothing. When you dispute people, say things about their statements being so wrong. You really should show some proof up your own. Otherwise you are guilty of the same thing you are saying about the person you are disputing.
> All you need to do to get along here is get your point across without belittling!! It's that stinking easy!



Sorry, again, your argument was poor. That's the issue. You don't seem to differentiate between extinct in the wild vs extinct in captivity. Huge difference you need to take into account before making such an ill-defined statement.


----------



## BrianWI

Yvonne G said:


> No. It would help explain it if you would point out what statement was false. And then show why it's false.



It is invalid BECAUSE it is a logical fallacy. I cannot teach you logic here.


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## BrianWI

Man, the mob is on full blown attack!


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## BrianWI

Easy enough to examine here....

I posted that there was no "rule" on mixing species. Someone had to try to prove me wrong. I gave some examples from this board proving this to be true, they persisted. But, as part of the clique (or just providing an opportunity for the clique to attack) they get to continue on and insult freely. Another simple fact.


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## wellington

Never said either. Plain fact is they cannot become extinct, period. If you stated wild or captivity I then missed it. I'm just stating a blanket fact!


BrianWI said:


> Sorry, again, your argument was poor. That's the issue. You don't seem to differentiate between extinct in the wild vs extinct in captivity. Huge difference you need to take into account before making such an ill-defined statement.


ver


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## wellington

Because you have been told too many times to knock it off!


BrianWI said:


> Man, the mob is on full blown attack!


----------



## leigti

BrianWI said:


> When you breed pet turtles, you only get more pet turtles. It is not conservation. If you think it is, you are wrong. Sorry?


It's amazing how you put words in people's mouth. You read a sentence and then switch it around anywhere you want in your head. That's why you start trouble. Do you see the word conservation and anything I wrote? You don't read what is written you just read what you want to. I am done arguing with you.


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## BrianWI

Here is a thread on a successful mixed species pond.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/building-our-turtle-and-tortoise-resort.144038/#post-1353505

Do I have to post a pic of a group of redfoots or box turtles from another thread to show groups can work?


----------



## BrianWI

leigti said:


> I don't like intentionally mixing species, unlike dogs for example, tortoises are naturally different depending on where they live. We don't need to domesticate them make a bunch of designer tortoises. I think it is important to keep the gene pool "pure" whatever that means.



"Pure" means nothing to a pet turtle.


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## Yvonne G

Let's get back to the subject in this thread.

In the first place, the original post was just giving a link to a mixing species article that Andy Highfield wrote. He is a very well-known tortoise person. Nowhere did I say it was right or wrong, however, I do go along with it.

After that, it is all our own opinion. I agree we should not mix species because of the microorganisms and cross contamination. I said I agree and this is why. If you don't agree, then it's up to you to say you don't agree and this is why. I don't see where you said anything other than the fact the animals seem to get along.

We're talking about tortoises, not turtles. Water turtles don't have the same cross contamination issues that tortoises have. And having a group of RF tortoises is not 'mixing species.'


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## BrianWI

leigti said:


> It's amazing how you put words in people's mouth. You read a sentence and then switch it around anywhere you want in your head. That's why you start trouble. Do you see the word conservation and anything I wrote? You don't read what is written you just read what you want to. I am done arguing with you.



It is a symptom of poor arguments. Again, not my fault, especially when you want to attack as a group and argue 427 different points (many being invalid).


----------



## wellington

BrianWI said:


> Easy enough to examine here....
> 
> I posted that there was no "rule" on mixing species. Someone had to try to prove me wrong. I gave some examples from this board proving this to be true, they persisted. But, as part of the clique (or just providing an opportunity for the clique to attack) they get to continue on and insult freely. Another simple fact.





BrianWI said:


> Easy enough to examine here....
> 
> I posted that there was no "rule" on mixing species. Someone had to try to prove me wrong. I gave some examples from this board proving this to be true, they persisted. But, as part of the clique (or just providing an opportunity for the clique to attack) they get to continue on and insult freely. Another simple fact.


There is no rule. We can only go on examples. Remembering what a mod had reminded me a long time ago. Can't always believe what is posted on the Internet. Examples are not proof unless the real whole truth is told. Even then, we don't know what will have 5, 10, 15 years down the road. As was stated from another member. Housing them singular is a sure bet that there is no fighting/bullying/etc. Remember, too we have newbies we are trying to help more then those experienced.


----------



## BrianWI

Yvonne G said:


> Let's get back to the subject in this thread.
> 
> In the first place, the original post was just giving a link to a mixing species article that Andy Highfield wrote. He is a very well-known tortoise person. Nowhere did I say it was right or wrong, however, I do go along with it.
> 
> After that, it is all our own opinion. I agree we should not mix species because of the microorganisms and cross contamination. I said I agree and this is why. If you don't agree, then it's up to you to say you don't agree and this is why. I don't see where you said anything other than the fact the animals seem to get along.
> 
> We're talking about tortoises, not turtles. Water turtles don't have the same cross contamination issues that tortoises have. And having a group of RF tortoises is not 'mixing species.'



You stumbled onto one good fact about why pet turtles are not conservation and release candidates: pet tortoises would introduce bad microorganisms, further endangering wild populations, not helping them. But again, these are pets.

The thread got off track due to someone trying to put together arguments that weren't valid to begin with. Thats often why threads wander.


----------



## BrianWI

Yvonne G said:


> We're talking about tortoises, not turtles. Water turtles don't have the same cross contamination issues that tortoises have. And having a group of RF tortoises is not 'mixing species.'



Really? Explain why this is. Thanks.


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## dmmj

I remember the leopard group that was decimated by a Russian getting into their enclosure and spreading the herpes virus that they carry asymptonmaticallly. (Oh look I can also use big words) as always if you want to mix species the risk is yours it may be small but it's too big for me.


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## saginawhxc

Brian, as in many of your posts, you have a lot to say that is right, but you seem to struggle at how to present it. 

I'm going to stick only to the content of this thread though.

You are right that there is no steadfast rule on multiple tortoises/turtles and you are right that there is no rule on multiples being kept together. 

In life there are many examples of things that are generally not suggested but occasionally they work out for somebody. Every single time anybody plays the lotto they are throwing money down the drain. Your expected return on investment of such a bet is horrible, but yet so many of us do it because the risk/reward ratio is very favorable. Let's discuss this as it relates to the subject at hand though. Even if you had even odds of it working out magically, does anybody like facing 50/50 odds on your tortoise getting sick or even dying? I don't know the statistics, and I don't truly have the experience to make an educated guess at what they might be, but my uneducated guess is the odds aren't even that good. More importantly the risk reward ratio for the scenario is not really worth it. What do you have to gain? Conserve space? Maybe just the "cool" factor of seeing different species together? I don't really get it. What is the reward for keeping them together?

I think for the beginner or intermediate keeper the best suggestion (not rule) is to go with the general line of thought here that says don't do it. 

So argue away that it isn't a rule. You are right. Just don't get mad and tell people they are wrong when they say they don't suggest it. 

I think you are also right that you are running into mob mentality here, but you are only partially right as to why that is. Yeah, there is a level of group think here, and yes sometimes people get a little upset when somebody makes arguments that basically tell them that their beliefs are wrong. Your comments way too often take it two steps further. You are often openly insulting or condescending to other people and/or their arguments. That is what really brings out the pitch forks against you.


----------



## saginawhxc

On the subjects of redfoots in groups though, I thought that I read somewhere that redfoots were one the species that could actually be kept in groups as long as there was space and a carefully balanced mixture of males to females. Was this just bad information? I know that I read more than my fair share of bad information on tortoises before finding this site.


----------



## dmmj

saginawhxc said:


> On the subjects of redfoots in groups though, I thought that I read somewhere that redfoots were one the species that could actually be kept in groups as long as there was space and a carefully balanced mixture of males to females. Was this just bad information? I know that I read more than my fair share of bad information on tortoises before finding this site.


 The red foot tortoise is one of the few species I know of that are observed in groups in the wild. Why they do this is not really clear it could be safety could be just a good location but they seem to tolerate it better than others. even box turtles which are often kept in colonies aren't really observed in the wild in groups. try keeping California desert tortoises and Russians in mixed-matcheg groups & you will seeWorld War 3. whenever I keep tortoises or Turtles I think of their well-being not my ease of caring.


----------



## Anyfoot

saginawhxc said:


> On the subjects of redfoots in groups though, I thought that I read somewhere that redfoots were one the species that could actually be kept in groups as long as there was space and a carefully balanced mixture of males to females. Was this just bad information? I know that I read more than my fair share of bad information on tortoises before finding this site.


No it was not bad info, they share sleeping quarters and feeding areas in the wild.


----------



## jaizei

BrianWI said:


> Really? Explain why this is. Thanks.



IKR, you'd think the whole defecating in the water that they're all swimming in would turn up the disease transmission to 11.


----------



## wellington

BrianWI said:


> When you breed pet turtles, you only get more pet turtles. It is not conservation. If you think it is, you are wrong. Sorry?


I don't believe neither one of us argued conservation! We corrected the extinct part that you were WRONG about. Oh yes, as much as you can't admit it, you can, and have stated things WRONG.


----------



## wellington

BrianWI said:


> No, the problem only happens when I disagree with the clique. That is not coincidence. People sometimes cling to a point of view and get angry when challenged. Then they make poor arguments to back up their "facts". Then they get mad when their arguments are challenged as being poor. Then the clique will refuse to let it go. Mob mentality ensues. Pretty common, think Michael Brown.


I haven't seen any argument from you that you backed up with facts! I don't think anyone has a problem with different points of view. You see no problem with the coil bulbs. Most of us have heard of ten being bad, myself in more places then just here and most of us choose not to risk it. You want to argue that they aren't bad, fine. The rest of us that don't believe as you do will continue to push against them. As much as you accuse others of doing whatever, you do just as much of it. Everything this forum tries to warn against, because it "COULD" be bad, you are trying to push as if it can't be bad. Both sides are good to know, but don't push your views and then complain and belittle those that don't agree with you. If you can't stop being rude and belittling, then yes, the mods will be on you!


----------



## Tom

BrianWI said:


> Tom constantly says that despite MOUNDS of scientific test data, he is right because he has "seen it" hurt tortoises eyes. No, he can't produce a bad bulb, but it must be true because he experienced it. That is an anecdotal fallacy and therefore a poor argument, a logical fallacy.



Here again you are the pot calling the kettle black. What you stated above is false. There are not MOUNDS scientific test data on one single faulty bulb, because not one single faulty bulb has been tested. Your mounds of data are compiled from bulbs that were not faulty. I believe you when you say lots of coil bulbs have been tested, but can you show me one single test done on an eye burning bulb? Nope. You can't. The reasons for this have been explained to you multiple times, and you ignore these perfectly understandable reasons. Until you came to the forum, no one has even had the ability to test a bulb. We don't have the equipment or expertise to test any bulb. There has been no reason to save the eye burning bulbs I've seen in the past because I had no useful purpose for them and no way to test them. When I come across another eye burner, I'll buy it form the person and send it directly to you for testing.

Further, someone's personal observations are not false because you say so. They might be false, or they might be accurate, but just because proof isn't delivered to your doorstep on demand, does not make anyone else's assertions true or false. Anecdotal? Yes. Fallacy? Maybe yes, maybe no. 

Also, because someone mixed species and their tortoises did not die, yet, is not proof that the practice is totally fine and should be encouraged or recommended. Because someone mixed species and got away with it also does not mean that someone else did not experience diseased or dead tortoises because of the practice. As I've said before, its like playing russian roulette. Every game leaves five players who were not harmed in anyway. That doesn't make the game safe.


----------



## BrianWI

saginawhxc said:


> On the subjects of redfoots in groups though, I thought that I read somewhere that redfoots were one the species that could actually be kept in groups as long as there was space and a carefully balanced mixture of males to females. Was this just bad information? I know that I read more than my fair share of bad information on tortoises before finding this site.



I have seen Russians in a succesful group as well. Mixed successes I know of are redfoot/ yellowfoot and a mixed group of hingebacks. I can tell you this: there are more people keeping groups on this board than you hear about. They just avoid being attacked and keep quiet


----------



## BrianWI

Tom said:


> Here again you are the pot calling the kettle black. What you stated above is false. There are not MOUNDS scientific test data on one single faulty bulb, because not one single faulty bulb has been tested. Your mounds of data are compiled from bulbs that were not faulty. I believe you when you say lots of coil bulbs have been tested, but can you show me one single test done on an eye burning bulb? Nope. You can't. The reasons for this have been explained to you multiple times, and you ignore these perfectly understandable reasons. Until you came to the forum, no one has even had the ability to test a bulb. We don't have the equipment or expertise to test any bulb. There has been no reason to save the eye burning bulbs I've seen in the past because I had no useful purpose for them and no way to test them. When I come across another eye burner, I'll buy it form the person and send it directly to you for testing.
> 
> Further, someone's personal observations are not false because you say so. They might be false, or they might be accurate, but just because proof isn't delivered to your doorstep on demand, does not make anyone else's assertions true or false. Anecdotal? Yes. Fallacy? Maybe yes, maybe no.
> 
> Also, because someone mixed species and their tortoises did not die, yet, is not proof that the practice is totally fine and should be encouraged or recommended. Because someone mixed species and got away with it also does not mean that someone else did not experience diseased or dead tortoises because of the practice. As I've said before, its like playing russian roulette. Every game leaves five players who were not harmed in anyway. That doesn't make the game safe.



Your argument is invalid, as all logical fallacies are. Period. I would likely not be successful teaching you logic. Read the link and hope for the best. Or continue to be wrong, up to you.


----------



## itiswhatitis




----------



## BrianWI

wellington said:


> I don't believe neither one of us argued conservation! We corrected the extinct part that you were WRONG about. Oh yes, as much as you can't admit it, you can, and have stated things WRONG.



How do I tell you that you are not really thinking clearly w/o insulting you? Since you jumped in ONLY to argue, I'll just guess you didn't read every post. Thats why your mob behavior is often so wrong and off track.


----------



## BrianWI

Tom said:


> I believe you when you say lots of coil bulbs have been tested, but can you show me one single test done on an eye burning bulb?



Here is a demo of the warped logic caused by fallacy. He is saying that because there are no tests on bad bulbs, that proves their existence. LOL! Of course there are no tests, they don't exist!

Let me restate this to show how poor an argument this is:

"Can you show me a single test that was done on blue Yeti hair? You can't. Therefore blue Yetis exist".


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## Tidgy's Dad

itiswhatitis said:


> View attachment 184716


What's your favourite bit ?
Post #76 made me laugh.


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## BrianWI

Tidgy's Dad said:


> What's your favourite bit ?
> Post #76 made me laugh.



Genetic "purity". LOL.


----------



## wellington

BrianWI said:


> How do I tell you that you are not really thinking clearly w/o insulting you? Since you jumped in ONLY to argue, I'll just guess you didn't read every post. Thats why your mob behavior is often so wrong and off track.


No I jumped in as a Mod that you seem to have a problem taking instructions from to stop your insulting and belittling behavior. I only corrected the fact that if tortoises are kept as pets or for breeding they can not become extinct. That is fact!! I did read every post. I was alerted to your behavior here and As a mod I paid more attention to your belittling and to read if anyone else was doing the same back to you. I did pay attention to what others have said. I agree with the others You won't see or ever admit when you are wrong. That's the person you are. My statement about torts in captivity and never becoming extinct cuz we own them can not be argued or questioned, yet you keep trying. You call everyone else's experience or opinions as crap, yet you show little or no proof. 
Stop trying to force people to believe you. State your opinion, show your facts and if someone doesn't want to believe you, that's fine. They don't have to. You want to belittle them, make yourself sound like an expert on everything, and we have no clue if you have an expertise in anything. Some will believe you, others won't. Stop trying to force those who don't


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## itiswhatitis

Tidgy's Dad said:


> What's your favourite bit ?
> Post #76 made me laugh.



I actually love @toms metaphors with Russian Roulette !!! I actually wrote it down. Lol !!!


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## Tidgy's Dad

itiswhatitis said:


> I actually love @toms metaphors with Russian Roulette !!! I actually wrote it down. Lol !!!


It's good, but I've seen it before.


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## BrianWI

wellington said:


> No I jumped in as a Mod that you seem to have a problem taking instructions from to stop your insulting and belittling behavior. I only corrected the fact that if tortoises are kept as pets or for breeding they can not become extinct. That is fact!! I did read every post. I was alerted to your behavior here and As a mod I paid more attention to your belittling and to read if anyone else was doing the same back to you. I did pay attention to what others have said. I agree with the others You won't see or ever admit when you are wrong. That's the person you are. My statement about torts in captivity and never becoming extinct cuz we own them can not be argued or questioned, yet you keep trying. You call everyone else's experience or opinions as crap, yet you show little or no proof.
> Stop trying to force people to believe you. State your opinion, show your facts and if someone doesn't want to believe you, that's fine. They don't have to. You want to belittle them, make yourself sound like an expert on everything, and we have no clue if you have an expertise in anything. Some will believe you, others won't. Stop trying to force those who don't


Here is your biggest problem: I am not wrong. So you go mob. And Blue Yeti. LOL.


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## itiswhatitis

I have one question. When Huck grows out of his shell he has now, where do I get a new one ? Thanks In Advance !!! Does anyone on the forum sell them ?


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## wellington

BrianWI said:


> Here is your biggest problem: I am not wrong. So you go mob. And Blue Yeti. LOL.


Unfortunately you are your own problem. Sorry for you


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## BrianWI

itiswhatitis said:


> I have one question. When Huck grows out of his shell he has now, where do I get a new one ? Thanks In Advance !!! Does anyone on the forum sell them ?


Like a hermit crab. Get a seashell and bedazzle it!


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## BrianWI

wellington said:


> Unfortunately you are your own problem. Sorry for you


Blah blah.


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## BrianWI

BrianWI said:


> Like a hermit crab. Get a seashell and bedazzle it!


Tortoise costume party!


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## cmacusa3

BrianWI said:


> Blah blah.


I can only imagine the conversations you and Nadine have........


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## BrianWI




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## BrianWI

Abramsmytankturtle said:


> I can only imagine the conversations you and Nadine have........


I find her more intelligent than some people....


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## cmacusa3

BrianWI said:


> I find her more intelligent than some people....



@Eric Phillips He's gotta be talking about you bud....


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## BrianWI

Abramsmytankturtle said:


> @Eric Phillips He's gotta be talking about you bud....



No, if you have box turtles, you're probably a bright dude


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## saginawhxc

BrianWI said:


> Here is a demo of the warped logic caused by fallacy. He is saying that because there are no tests on bad bulbs, that proves their existence. LOL! Of course there are no tests, they don't exist!
> 
> Let me restate this to show how poor an argument this is:
> 
> "Can you show me a single test that was done on blue Yeti hair? You can't. Therefore blue Yetis exist".


The lack of testing doesn't prove the blue yeti doesn't exist either.


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## mctlong

We're getting way off topic folks. The OP is about the mixing species article. Stay on topic or I'm closing the thread.


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## BrianWI

saginawhxc said:


> The lack of testing doesn't prove the blue yeti doesn't exist either.



Nor would anyone with logic argue that. But, in real science, it is often key to understand where the burden of proof actually lies.


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## BrianWI

Interesting question:

Anyone here care to admit they keep mixed species? I do in box turtles, very successfully.


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## mctlong

Sorry, warned you.


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