# Prematur/in-egg death? Question for experienced breeders....



## Turtlepete (May 19, 2014)

Interested to hear what experienced breeders have to say about this, and if anyone else has encountered it as well.....
One of my rf's just started laying last year, and her clutches are now hatching. She had 3 clutches in the first year. She astonished me with having a clutch of 7 once. The eggs, as I expected, have been tiny, almost half the size of that of my seasoned breeders. They have had pretty great fertility; however, I believe some may be under-developed.
The first to hatch from a clutch, actually seemed to have a sort of neurological disorder. Walking in circles with head cocked to the side, flipped itself over constantly....I expected its demise, but it was still disappointing after it actually began eating quite strongly, and passed away 2 weeks later. After that, one died halfway out of the egg. It had its head and one leg through, but was dead. During this time, when I am expecting them to hatch, I check the incubator daily, sometimes twice a day. A couple weeks later, another hatched in a similar fashion; broke out one side of the egg, got its head and leg out, and I found it dead.

Both tortoises were externally perfect. I could find nothing wrong with them, though it was obviously an internal issue. Furthermore, here is another thing that surprised me: they almost seemed to be in a hurry. As funny as this may sound (morbid humor, eh?)....All hatchlings I have had, once they have "pipped" a little hole in the egg, typically have only partially broken out the egg, 24 hours later. These dead ones had made more progress in escaping the egg then a typical healthy tortoise, in a quarter of the time. I can't speculate why this is.

So, my thoughts are that they must be internally underdeveloped. Likely due to it being this particular female's first clutches. Could the fact that there were 7 eggs in one clutch also be a factor? My best guess is that their lungs in particular were underdeveloped. It seems they must have suffocated in the first few hours out of the egg. I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that lungs are one of the last things to develop in reptiles, so that is what led me to the conclusion. This is my only guess, otherwise it must be the failure of some other internal organ.

Any thoughts are appreciated. These tortoises hatched alongside perfectly healthy tortoises, in the same incubator, so I know it had nothing to do with the incubator/incubation conditions, etc.. I don't expect there to be anything I can do to help them, but I am curious as to what is causing it. Hoping for a better mortality rate with the next clutches; normally, any hatchlings dying has been very rare for me.


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## Jlant85 (May 20, 2014)

This is an interesting topic... i have my first egg to and would like to take extra precaution.


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## tortadise (May 20, 2014)

Thanks for bringing this up. I know exactly what your dealing with. I have a young adult pair of Venezuelans F3, the female just started laying the past few years. Each year the eggs got bigger and bigger. One that hatched 4 months ago has the exact similar conditions. Walks I'm circles, scratched head for nothing, and kinda tilts it's head and seems to have a neurological disorder as you describes. That baby has finally hit over the hump though. Growing normal now, and hit spurts. Not too certain why. My only observation and thoughts may be because the female is young. Follicle development is not quite perfect, and some percentage of the eggs get fertile when really they're just going to be a "test egg". I don't know for sure why. I'm not qualified enough to really say biologically or otherwise. Just my two cents. Oh and out of that clutch from her 6 eggs only the one hatched. The little guys name is mongo. Sorry yours didn't make it. Nature can sometimes show us some kinks.


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## Turtlepete (May 20, 2014)

tortadise said:


> Thanks for bringing this up. I know exactly what your dealing with. I have a young adult pair of Venezuelans F3, the female just started laying the past few years. Each year the eggs got bigger and bigger. One that hatched 4 months ago has the exact similar conditions. Walks I'm circles, scratched head for nothing, and kinda tilts it's head and seems to have a neurological disorder as you describes. That baby has finally hit over the hump though. Growing normal now, and hit spurts. Not too certain why. My only observation and thoughts may be because the female is young. Follicle development is not quite perfect, and some percentage of the eggs get fertile when really they're just going to be a "test egg". I don't know for sure why. I'm not qualified enough to really say biologically or otherwise. Just my two cents. Oh and out of that clutch from her 6 eggs only the one hatched. The little guys name is mongo. Sorry yours didn't make it. Nature can sometimes show us some kinks.



Thanks so much for your response Kelly. I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who has dealt with it before.

What I REALLY am interested in, though, is what you and I are both in the dark on . I would love the answer of why, biologically, this happens. What happens with the eggs/ova of an _immature_, or perhaps first-time breeder (this particular female was almost 11"), that causes this to happen. Is something off with them from the beginning of development that dictates they aren't going to make it? Is there something wrong that just doesn't allow them to finish development? (As I was thinking, under-developed lungs/other interal organs?)

*"My only observation and thoughts may be because the female is young. Follicle development is not quite perfect, and some percentage of the eggs get fertile when really they're just going to be a "test egg". "*
Could you perhaps dumb this down for me a little bit ? I'm pretty sure I know what it is that your saying, but it would also be nice if it was perhaps explained a little more thoroughly, for all of us uneducated to figure out, especially here on the forum, for others to learn from .

Glad to hear that your little neuro-disorder buddy made it . That one was by far the hardest to lose, even though I was expecting it. So much odd behavior from the beginning. First day I knew something was off, though. When you place a red foot hatchling in a vivaria setup and it doesn't almost _immediately_ head for that nice big pile of fluffy spaghum, it's always a cue for me.

One of the things that really surprises me, this first year she laid 3 clutches! And 7 eggs is the biggest I have ever personally seen. I can't remember the total eggs, but it was just shy of twenty I believe. I actually received more eggs from her, and more hatchlings (not even including those that have died in/egg), then my seasoned female. 3 more from this current female are pipping, so hoping that they all do well.

All of this is just a little bit out of my understanding. I would love to learn what exactly is causing it though, regardless of there being a "solution" or not. I expect to have a better fertility/survival rate next season with her.


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