# Help!! - slight bleeding between the scutes



## gg888 (Jul 3, 2016)

Bertie is a little horsefield. He is roughly two years old. He was outside in his enclosure today and when I went outside to check on him he had escaped and must have had an accident. I'm 100% sure my other tortoise didn't do this, and my bunnies didn't do it either.

I've uploaded a picture.. It looks like he has been bleeding between his schutes? Has anybody ever seen this before and does anybody have any idea what I should do? I have bathed him thoroughly and brought him back inside, im keeping him warm and quiet. He doesn't seem to be in any pain and he is pooing and moving around normally. Thank you in advance for any advice you have!


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## Jodie (Jul 3, 2016)

Looks like an animal got him. Dog? Clean it with water. You could put an antibiotic cream on it. I would see a vet as well. The bleeding suggests a puncture wound.


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Jul 3, 2016)

It kind of looks like juices from a strawberry or something. I cant see the picture very clear. 
Did all the blood wash off when you soaked him? Where did you find him when he escaped?


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## gg888 (Jul 3, 2016)

Linhdan Nguyen said:


> It kind of looks like juices from a strawberry or something. I cant see the picture very clear.
> Did all the blood wash off when you soaked him? Where did you find him when he escaped?


It's definitely blood (he has no access to strawberries!). Most of it washed off when I bathed him but his shell felt a little rough. I found him in the nearest corner of my garden just walking around. He doesn't seem to be in any pain, but the bleeding is purely between his scutes, where his new growth is


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## gg888 (Jul 3, 2016)

Linhdan Nguyen said:


> It kind of looks like juices from a strawberry or something. I cant see the picture very clear.
> Did all the blood wash off when you soaked him? Where did you find him when he escaped?


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## gg888 (Jul 3, 2016)

Jodie said:


> Looks like an animal got him. Dog? Clean it with water. You could put an antibiotic cream on it. I would see a vet as well. The bleeding suggests a puncture wound.


We don't have any dogs or cats, only rabbits and they couldn't get near him. It just seems weird that the bleeding is only limited to the area between his scutes where his new growth is. I noticed those areas were looking a little translucent before. Maybe I should increase his calcium in take?


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Jul 3, 2016)

is his outdoor enclosure above the ground? If so, maybe he fell and hit something when he escaped? does his shell feel squishy-ish if you push down on it? 
I'm thinking maybe during his time out, he got squished a little and it cracked in his growth lines, where the bone is still tender. 
But a little bit more calcium shouldn't hurt while his shell is healing (from where the blood came through)


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## gg888 (Jul 3, 2016)

I had an idea that maybe it's something to do with his growth. A friend of mine got a female tortoise at the same time as we got Bertie, and she literally hasn't grown whereas Bertie has. I've kept a rough note of his weight gain which is as follows...
24/10/2015 - 5.1oz
13/01/2016 - 5.3oz
25/02/2016 - 6.4oz
31/03/2016 - 7.5 oz
4/05/2016 - 7.5oz
18/06/2016 - 8.0oz

He is kept on orchid bark in a large wooden tortoise table. In the table he has a shallow water dish, a ceramic plant pot, some small smooth stones and a buried piece of slate, he is bathed three times a week in like warm water. He has an 80watt Arcadia bulb for UV and heat. No heat source at night because the room he is kept in is kept warm all of the time. His diet consists of mainly weeds, curly kale and romaine lettuce with calcium sprinkled over it. Also has a cuttlefish bone available at all times. Outside he is kept on the grass in an enclosure which he has now apparently discovered how to dig out of!


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## gg888 (Jul 3, 2016)

Linhdan Nguyen said:


> is his outdoor enclosure above the ground? If so, maybe he fell and hit something when he escaped? does his shell feel squishy-ish if you push down on it?
> I'm thinking maybe during his time out, he got squished a little and it cracked in his growth lines, where the bone is still tender.
> But a little bit more calcium shouldn't hurt while his shell is healing (from where the blood came through)


His enclosure is on the ground and he escaped by digging under it (lesson officially learned from now on!). I'm thinking maybe he scraped his shell on his way under it? Still seems strange that there aren't even scratches on top of his scutes though! His shell isn't squishy, just looks a little translucent between scutes.


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Jul 3, 2016)

I think the growth looks just fine. I have a tortoise (female) that has grown since i got her and the male (that i got the same time) has not grown much at all. Bertie's growth lines look good and he doesnt look overweight. 
I do see those white patches (looks like really dry shell?) near the growth lines though. is the shell dry?

and, well i'm not sure. I would just keep a close eye on him and probably take him to the vet if for a check up


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## gg888 (Jul 3, 2016)

Linhdan Nguyen said:


> I think the growth looks just fine. I have a tortoise (female) that has grown since i got her and the male (that i got the same time) has not grown much at all. Bertie's growth lines look good and he doesnt look overweight.
> I do see those white patches (looks like really dry shell?) near the growth lines though. is the shell dry?
> 
> and, well i'm not sure. I would just keep a close eye on him and probably take him to the vet if for a check up


The white patches in between his scutes are flakey bits. He's had them for quite a while. The scutes themselves look fine and the flakes are confined to his new growth. Would you suggest more frequent soaks? 

I've got him in his indoor enclosure now, he seems completely normal (apart from his shell). Actually he's gone off for a nap, completely oblivious to his panic stricken mother!


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Jul 3, 2016)

gg888 said:


> The white patches in between his scutes are flakey bits. He's had them for quite a while. The scutes themselves look fine and the flakes are confined to his new growth. Would you suggest more frequent soaks?
> 
> I've got him in his indoor enclosure now, he seems completely normal (apart from his shell). Actually he's gone off for a nap, completely oblivious to his panic stricken mother!


More frequent soaks would be good for awhile while we make sure Bertie is okay. 
But i personally would rub some organic olive oil or coconut oil between the scutes. 
& yes they can be so cruel ! 
I lost my tortoise for a day and when i brought him back home. He just crawl to his corner and slept, like i wasnt worrying about him for 24 hrs !


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## gg888 (Jul 3, 2016)

Linhdan Nguyen said:


> More frequent soaks would be good for awhile while we make sure Bertie is okay.
> But i personally would rub some organic olive oil or coconut oil between the scutes.
> & yes they can be so cruel !
> I lost my tortoise for a day and when i brought him back home. He just crawl to his corner and slept, like i wasnt worrying about him for 24 hrs !


I shall give the coconut oil a whirl, I've got buckets of it here  thank you for all your help, I've been beside myself for the last few hours! It seems I have a little escape artist on my hands!


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## Yvonne G (Jul 3, 2016)

To me it looks like something heavy was dropped on him and the tender new growth 'gave' causing a slight bleeding problem. Is it possible he came in contact with the sulcata? Larger tortoises will sometimes get over a smaller tortoise then drop on it.

Keep him in the house for a week or so, and tend to the areas with Neosporin. You don't want flies to be able to lay eggs on those areas.


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## gg888 (Jul 3, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> To me it looks like something heavy was dropped on him and the tender new growth 'gave' causing a slight bleeding problem. Is it possible he came in contact with the sulcata? Larger tortoises will sometimes get over a smaller tortoise then drop on it.
> 
> Keep him in the house for a week or so, and tend to the areas with Neosporin. You don't want flies to be able to lay eggs on those areas.


My sulcata was in a separate enclosure, unable to get to him. It's a mystery really. The only animal he came into contact with was my youngest bunny, and she was fast asleep when I found him! Do you think it's worth a small bandage for the first day or so?


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Jul 3, 2016)

I bet you've been worried ! 
I would do the Neosporin that Yvonne suggested then a week after youre done giving him that, you can do the coconut oil once a month or so. 
& yes the escape artist skill has come out ! Haha 
But i was thinking, was the hole he dug under his enclosure big? What if he got hurt while escaping because he was trying to squeeze himself under and he didnt dig down far enough so that was putting pressure on his shell?


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## gg888 (Jul 3, 2016)

Linhdan Nguyen said:


> I bet you've been worried !
> I would do the Neosporin that Yvonne suggested then a week after youre done giving him that, you can do the coconut oil once a month or so.
> & yes the escape artist skill has come out ! Haha
> But i was thinking, was the hole he dug under his enclosure big? What if he got hurt while escaping because he was trying to squeeze himself under and he didnt dig down far enough so that was putting pressure on his shell?


I will most definitely do that. I will keep my eye on him too, and if he gets any worse then a trip to the vets may be in order. But he really does seem to be acting like nothing happened! Well i have been examining the outside enclosure. I have managed to find a small gap at one end. I am now thinking he has squeezed himself under it, which has put pressure on his shell causing the slight bleeding. I have noticed sometimes that he doesn't seem to be aware of the size of his shell, so that may be the problem! So it seems that I will be reinforcing his enclosure next weekend, and in the mean time playing nurse! As for tonight, I'll be giving him plenty of curly kale as a treat, because he's had a rough day!


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## gg888 (Jul 3, 2016)

Here's a picture of him yesterday, before his escape. He is a handsome fella


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Jul 3, 2016)

What?! He escapes & worries you and he gets a treat ?! Lol
But that may be it , the squeezing under. 
Hes like "im your baby", he just doesnt understand hes a BIG baby.


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## Linhdan Nguyen (Jul 3, 2016)

He is handsome ! Like really !


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## gg888 (Jul 3, 2016)

Linhdan Nguyen said:


> What?! He escapes & worries you and he gets a treat ?! Lol
> But that may be it , the squeezing under.
> Hes like "im your baby", he just doesnt understand hes a BIG baby.


What can I say, he's a mummy's boy that gets spoiled rotten! I still see him as tiny though, with an 8lb sulcata (who's on a serious growth spurt a the minute) in the household!


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## Carol S (Jul 3, 2016)

You need to bury small pavers or wire under the inside perimeter of his enclosure wall, around 12 to 18 inches deep. This will keep him from digging down and coming up on the outside of the enclosure. Is your enclosure walls made or wood or block?


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## gg888 (Jul 3, 2016)

Carol S said:


> You need to bury small pavers or wire under the inside perimeter of his enclosure wall, around 12 to 18 inches deep. This will keep him from digging down and coming up on the outside of the enclosure. Is your enclosure walls made or wood or block?


It is a metal wire rabbit run which i buried into the lawn about 6 inches deep. I originally used it to introduce my youngest rabbit to my older ones so its been there that long that it has sort of grown into the lawn. He's never attempted to dig out before, but I have officially learnt my lesson! I'm going to purchase some breeze block type things and dig them deep into the ground from now on, I'll use them as the perimeter and sort out a wire mesh lid to protect from birds. If anybody has any better ideas I'd be grateful to hear them!


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## Lyn W (Jul 3, 2016)

If he can see through the walls of the rabbit run try adding some sight barriers around the base so he can't see the big wide world beyond.
Make sure he is healed properly before adding coconut oil - to reduce the risk of trapping bacteria and causing infection. Wonder if a rat could have tried to nibble him - apparently we are never more than a metre away from them - they get everywhere and like places with rabbit food.
Hope he is better soon.


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## gg888 (Jul 3, 2016)

Lyn W said:


> If he can see through the walls of the rabbit run try adding some sight barriers around the base so he can't see the big wide world beyond.
> Make sure he is healed properly before adding coconut oil - to reduce the risk of trapping bacteria and causing infection. Wonder if a rat could have tried to nibble him - apparently we are never more than a metre away from them - they get everywhere and like places with rabbit food.
> Hope he is better soon.


I'll try that, might discourage him from escaping! Thanks for your advice  I guess I'll never know for sure what happened, I'll just have to keep a very close eye on him from now on!


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## gg888 (Jul 4, 2016)

Just a quick update.. Bertie has been eating and behaving normally today. I've given him another bath, and I have increased the amount of calcium I am providing. I have increased the distance between him and his lamp slightly, just in case it is anything to do with that (I imagine heat on his poorly shell can't feel too great). I have been bathing his shell with a very week saline solution I made myself (all natural sea salt) and it has cleaned the blood away quite well. I don't have any neosporin yet (I'm waiting for it to be delivered) so in the mean time I have dabbed a small amount of sudocrem on. 
I've also added a picture of his shell today, you can see the damage more clearly now that most of the blood has been cleaned up. Also, he looked so cute sleeping in his plant pot  

So all in all, apart from his shell, he seems to be in high spirits and good health! Again, thank you all for your advice


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## Yvonne G (Jul 4, 2016)

Since it seems to be worse on one side than the other, it's now looking like the tender new tissue was injured during the escape.


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## gg888 (Jul 4, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> Since it seems to be worse on one side than the other, it's now looking like the tender new tissue was injured during the escape.


That's the idea I'm thinking is most likely. Bertie is most definitely grounded inside while he heals. And while I get a secure outdoor enclosure sorted!


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