# SOMETHING ALARMING!



## Champoi bibiano (May 7, 2017)

Greetings friends, its been quite a while since i last posted, now everything seems to be in ship shape, until this morning i discovered that champoi's tongue is turning rather black, infact he didnt have this problem last night, to me he looks generally healthy with no issues with regards to anything, he moves fine, looks fine pees fine poops fine, and eats fine, except the leaves i fed him yesterday, he wont eat them after taking one bite, the leaves were sweet potato leaves, he's had his soak already today and he wont stop walking around which is normal for him, so any thoughts about the tongue thing? Thank you. I will post a picture of him to show how he's grown


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## Champoi bibiano (May 7, 2017)




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## Champoi bibiano (May 7, 2017)




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## Yvonne G (May 8, 2017)

Sweet potato leaves are supposed to be edible, but if he won't eat them, that's fine. He doesn't need them. His tongue is probably just black from something he ate. I wouldn't worry about it just yet.

He's really coming along nicely. You're doing a great job with him.


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## eric joranson (May 8, 2017)

I see dark tongue; when it eats it's own poo....ugh.


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## Champoi bibiano (May 14, 2017)

Yvonne G said:


> Sweet potato leaves are supposed to be edible, but if he won't eat them, that's fine. He doesn't need them. His tongue is probably just black from something he ate. I wouldn't worry about it just yet.
> 
> He's really coming along nicely. You're doing a great job with him.




Hi Yvonne, thanks, i did panic at first but then i solved the problem, the blackening of the mouth and tongue, was due to the sap of the sweet potato leaves i fed him, after a few soaks and feeding him bok choi again, his tongue is pinker than ever. My success so far as an owner is thanks to you guys here at the forum, champi would never have looked like he is now if it wasnt for you guys, so thankyou.


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## William Lee Kohler (Jun 7, 2017)

Looks like his shell is starting topyramid. Please provide best lighting to stop it before it goes any farther.


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## Yvonne G (Jun 7, 2017)

William Lee Kohler said:


> Looks like his shell is starting topyramid. Please provide best lighting to stop it before it goes any farther.



Pyramiding is caused by dry conditions, not lighting.


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## William Lee Kohler (Jun 8, 2017)

It has been a change to good lighting that has alleviated pyramiding on my tortoises. No other changes made.


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## Anyfoot (Jun 8, 2017)

William Lee Kohler said:


> It has been a change to good lighting that has alleviated pyramiding on my tortoises. No other changes made.


What changes did you make to your lighting to reduce pyramiding?


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## William Lee Kohler (Jun 8, 2017)

In the beginning change to 4 foot Vitalites. As they became the newest thing that was changed to UVB 5.0 then 10.0. which are used currently. 3 foot 5.0 did not work for my Redfoots but 4 foot lites do. Three foot also did not work for Chaco.


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## Anyfoot (Jun 8, 2017)

William Lee Kohler said:


> In the beginning change to 4 foot Vitalites. As they became the newest thing that was changed to UVB 5.0 then 10.0. which are used currently. 3 foot 5.0 did not work for my Redfoots but 4 foot lites do. Three foot also did not work for Chaco.


 So your saying with a 3ft uvb they were pyramiding and when you changed to a 4ft uvb the pyramiding stopped.


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## wellington (Jun 8, 2017)

William Lee Kohler said:


> Looks like his shell is starting topyramid. Please provide best lighting to stop it before it goes any farther.


Lack of humidity causes pyramiding not lack of best lighting, that would be more of a problem with MBD.


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## William Lee Kohler (Jun 8, 2017)

Anyfoot said:


> So your saying with a 3ft uvb they were pyramiding and when you changed to a 4ft uvb the pyramiding stopped.


That is what I said. Actually all were/are 2 lite hoods.


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## wellington (Jun 8, 2017)

This doesn't make any sense. Another foot would not make a tortoise pyramid of not. 
The best lighting is the sun. A tortoise raised with lots of sun but no humidity will still pyramid. A tortoise raised with any of the available lighting and a proper humidity will not pyramid in most situations.


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## William Lee Kohler (Jun 8, 2017)

It works for me. That is MY experience. Nobody said there is no humidity. Just none added other than ambient household. H20 is always present and used,


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## Anyfoot (Jun 8, 2017)

William Lee Kohler said:


> It works for me. That is MY experience. Nobody said there is no humidity. Just none added other than ambient household. H20 is always present and used,


Can we see a photo of your redfoot that stopped pyramiding due to a longer uvb light being added to the enclosure please.


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## William Lee Kohler (Jun 8, 2017)

NO! But I will attempt to explain why. When I got him he was a perfect beautiful baby only a couple months old. Like so many newcomers I knew nothing of how to care for him. It was November 1974. By about 1980 his shell was obviously not growing normally so I started to ask questions. I heard something vague about special lighting and found out about Vitalites. I found some and put up 2 x 4' lights in a hood about 2 feet or so above him. These stayed on at least 12 hours a day. There was also a red heat lamp for warmth 24/7. I would also turn on a Sunlamp for an hour or two on an irregular basis. He would swarm under it every time and I was not sure if it was for the added heat or the suns rays it gave but did not use it a lot as I felt it was too intense for that and might even blind him. There was an article in a magazine saying how canned dog or cat food was producing wonders of growth so I put him on a largely dog food diet for a couple of years. This all not only made him start growing (and incidently) a smoother shell but also made the house smellier and his right elbow froze in position as it remains today. Shortly after that instinct told me what I did wrong and I swore off the high protein almost completely in deference to a largely vegetarian diet and eventually added supplementation. I said all that to say this. Sociable is now 42 1/2 years old in spite of my miserably poor and ignorant care. I love him and respect him as a living being with dignity even if he doesn't know it. Because he is not the perfect and beautiful tortoise we all want our little ones to become I will not display him for ANYONE to feel sorry for! He is beautiful to me. He deserves his privacy and dignity as far as I'm concerned. His condition is my shame I freely and miserably admit.
Since I started to come to this forum around a month ago is the first I ever heard about the humidity being in any way related to pyramiding. Perhaps for Redfoots having regular drinking water fills that bill IF that is actually a valid idea. I know it didn't do any good without the lighting. Seeing the Leopards, Sulcatas, Hingebacks and Angulateds having plenty smooth shells living in their often largely deserty dry native savannah environments the humidity idea goes out my window. I've never seen a captive raised Leopard or Sulcata on here that is not pyramided and many times even worse than my Redfoot is and nothing like a wild animal. Some are even raised outdoors in great sunny humid places like San Diego and still not smooth. How is this explained? away?


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## Pearly (Jun 9, 2017)

Champoi bibiano said:


> View attachment 206912


Champi is gorgeous! And I'm glad you have figured out the tongue issue


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## Anyfoot (Jun 9, 2017)

William Lee Kohler said:


> NO! But I will attempt to explain why. When I got him he was a perfect beautiful baby only a couple months old. Like so many newcomers I knew nothing of how to care for him. It was November 1974. By about 1980 his shell was obviously not growing normally so I started to ask questions. I heard something vague about special lighting and found out about Vitalites. I found some and put up 2 x 4' lights in a hood about 2 feet or so above him. These stayed on at least 12 hours a day. There was also a red heat lamp for warmth 24/7. I would also turn on a Sunlamp for an hour or two on an irregular basis. He would swarm under it every time and I was not sure if it was for the added heat or the suns rays it gave but did not use it a lot as I felt it was too intense for that and might even blind him. There was an article in a magazine saying how canned dog or cat food was producing wonders of growth so I put him on a largely dog food diet for a couple of years. This all not only made him start growing (and incidently) a smoother shell but also made the house smellier and his right elbow froze in position as it remains today. Shortly after that instinct told me what I did wrong and I swore off the high protein almost completely in deference to a largely vegetarian diet and eventually added supplementation. I said all that to say this. Sociable is now 42 1/2 years old in spite of my miserably poor and ignorant care. I love him and respect him as a living being with dignity even if he doesn't know it. Because he is not the perfect and beautiful tortoise we all want our little ones to become I will not display him for ANYONE to feel sorry for! He is beautiful to me. He deserves his privacy and dignity as far as I'm concerned. His condition is my shame I freely and miserably admit.
> Since I started to come to this forum around a month ago is the first I ever heard about the humidity being in any way related to pyramiding. Perhaps for Redfoots having regular drinking water fills that bill IF that is actually a valid idea. I know it didn't do any good without the lighting. Seeing the Leopards, Sulcatas, Hingebacks and Angulateds having plenty smooth shells living in their often largely deserty dry native savannah environments the humidity idea goes out my window. I've never seen a captive raised Leopard or Sulcata on here that is not pyramided and many times even worse than my Redfoot is and nothing like a wild animal. Some are even raised outdoors in great sunny humid places like San Diego and still not smooth. How is this explained? away?


 Thank you for your detailed explanation William. It sounds like in the early days your tort was lacking vitamin D. You weren't offering the correct lighting or diet to fullfil this vitamin requirement. It looks like you then corrected the lighting and over fed him with protein which is taxing on the organs, all these things point towards sign of potential MBD not just pyramiding, Glad he's ok now. 

It's a tort that grows in dry conditions that causes pyramiding, the new growth needs to be supple so not to pyramid, hence advice on hydration techniques like high humidity, spraying and/or soaking. 
It's lack of vitamins in diet that caused MBD, hence the advise is a varied mixed diet with a UVB source of some sort. 

Anyway I admire your truthfulness, but you shouldn't be ashamed or blame yourself for your torts looks. There were plenty more in your shoes back then when everyone was learning and information wasn't as easy to come by, it's easier with the aid of this forum for a newbie to bypass all those years of learning and stories like yours should be told to aid the new tort owner.


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## Tom (Jun 9, 2017)

William Lee Kohler said:


> I've never seen a captive raised Leopard or Sulcata on here that is not pyramided and many times even worse than my Redfoot is and nothing like a wild animal. Some are even raised outdoors in great sunny humid places like San Diego and still not smooth. How is this explained? away?



This is absurd. These pages are filled with smooth tortoise of those species. And San Diego does not have humid weather most of the year. And, as has already been mentioned, sun has nothing to do with pyramiding or not.

Where the sulcata comes from, they have a hot humid rainy season for 3-4 months every year. Conditions are like Florida or New Orleans in summer there. This is when baby sulcatas hatch. During the dry portion of the year, they live in warm damp underground burrows to escape the heat above ground.

Further, did you ever put a meter under a Vita-Lite? They produce a nice looking light spectrum, but almost no UV.

What you are suffering from is called superstition. You are observing things in front of you and jumping to incorrect conclusions for the wrong reasons.

Because you posted this on Champoi's thread, I needed to respond to it here, but this is not the place for this discussion. If you want to discuss this further, learn where you've gone wrong logically speaking, and learn what really works and why we know what really works, I'm happy to oblige, but you'll need to start your own thread on the topic.


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## Pearly (Jun 10, 2017)

Anyfoot said:


> Thank you for your detailed explanation William. It sounds like in the early days your tort was lacking vitamin D. You weren't offering the correct lighting or diet to fullfil this vitamin requirement. It looks like you then corrected the lighting and over fed him with protein which is taxing on the organs, all these things point towards sign of potential MBD not just pyramiding, Glad he's ok now.
> 
> It's a tort that grows in dry conditions that causes pyramiding, the new growth needs to be supple so not to pyramid, hence advice on hydration techniques like high humidity, spraying and/or soaking.
> It's lack of vitamins in diet that caused MBD, hence the advise is a varied mixed diet with a UVB source of some sort.
> ...


Well done, Craig


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## Champoi bibiano (Jul 6, 2017)

Pearly said:


> Champi is gorgeous! And I'm glad you have figured out the tongue issue



Thankyou so much


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## Salspi (Feb 21, 2018)

Honestly, your sulcata does NOT look pyramided (is this a word?) at all to me. I’m not sure why you were told that. Looks very nice!


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