# Unacceptable dog breed list



## Fernando

Hello everyone! 

Most of you probably don't know this but I'm an Insurance agent for a major insurance carrier here in California and we have an "unacceptable dog breed list" or black list that we have to follow in order for us to insure prospective clients. 

Here is is:

Akita
Chow Chow
Doberman Pinscher
Huskey (Eskimo dog)
Presa Canario
Rottweiler
Staffordshire Terrier (Pit bull)
Staffordshire bull terrier
Wolf hybrid
Bull Terrier (including miniature)
German shepherd

*some of our carriers will exclude a bull mastiff*

*Would you agree with this list? Have you had personal experience or have heard of stories about a specific breed? Would there be a breed that you would include in this list?*

I'd love to know your thoughts on this...


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## jeffbens0n

What kind of insurance are we talking about?


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## Laura

Chihuahuas bite more people, but the damage isnt as bad..


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## Fernando

jeffbens0n said:


> What kind of insurance are we talking about?



I sell Homeowners Insurance, Renters Insurance, Rental Insurance, Umbrella Insurance.



Laura said:


> Chihuahuas bite more people, but the damage isnt as bad..



Yeah, I'm a witness to that...but the media doesnt care unless it's bad so the Insurance company wouldn't bother taking them into account.


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## CtTortoiseMom

I have an Insurance backround too. I was a Commercial Insurance Agent. I specialized in Large Construction. I was a Certified Workers Comp. Advisor as well. It has been my experience that you can buy out most clauses. I am pretty sure we did this with our home owners insurance when we wanted a trampoline.

Unfortunately a few dog owners that allowed specific breeds to destroy property have ruined it for the gen. Pop.


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## Fernando

CtTortoiseMom said:


> I have an Insurance backround too. I was a Commercial Insurance Agent. I specialized in Large Construction. I was a Certified Workers Comp. Advisor as well. It has been my experience that you can buy out most clauses. I am pretty sure we did this with our home owners insurance when we wanted a trampoline.
> 
> Unfortunately a few dog owners that allowed specific breeds to destroy property have ruined it for the gen. Pop.



Yes, a trampoline is USUALLY a big "no no" for most carriers. And yes you can in most cases EXCLUDE animal liability coverage on your Homeowners Insurance. Our Renters programs don't allow you to do that, so unfortunately they would just not be accepted if they disclose the information to us =(


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## Edna

I'm glad my homeowners insurance carrier has a shorter list.


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## CtTortoiseMom

It sounds a little drastic for a renters policy. After all the policy is only insuring the contents. It makes more sense to add a clause that states that the contents damaged by pet's are not covered. Too bad for the person trying to cover their bases and get a renters policy to find out that they are uninsurable because they have a dog.


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## Jacqui

fmadrigal said:


> I sell Homeowners Insurance, Renters Insurance, Rental Insurance, Umbrella Insurance.
> 
> 
> 
> Laura said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chihuahuas bite more people, but the damage isnt as bad..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I'm a witness to that...but the media doesnt care unless it's bad so the Insurance company wouldn't bother taking them into account.
Click to expand...




I am lost, what does the media have to do with it? Stupid me, I thought it would be on a more honest bases, such as in how many times does each one of these types of dogs bite or folks end up in doctors and hospitals for treatment, thus the true cost of each breed to the company.

As for the list, my thoughts are first off, it's not so much the breed but how it is raised/trained or the lack of it. Second, I have worked with Akitas, GSDs, Dobermans, Chows, Rotts, and may be only two huskies. I have not worked with, but have been around a couple of bulls (both Mastiffs and terriers) and they were all very friendly. Overall, I can honestly say, none of them have been in any way dangerous in my opinion. I can think of several smaller breeds, that I have seen some nasty tempers on and biting situations. I think part of that is folks don't tend to take the smaller dogs as seriously and they should.


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## Fernando

Edna said:


> I'm glad my homeowners insurance carrier has a shorter list.



I'm almost positive the more common ones in the list are probably on your insurance carriers list too. i.e. Pitbull, Rott, Doberman, wolf

The bull mastiff and the german shepherd is usually okay with most. We have 1 or 2 carriers that won't take them.


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## CtTortoiseMom

I think it is more claim statistics than media. A dog bite on the insured premises is a Homeowners claim. Regardless of how bad the bite, the risk of medical and legal fees is the concern.


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## ChiKat

Ugh that's ridiculous...ban the deed, not the breed 
My mom was attacked by a Golden Retriever, why not add them to the list?


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## Edna

fmadrigal said:


> Edna said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad my homeowners insurance carrier has a shorter list.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm almost positive the more common ones in the list are probably on your insurance carriers list too. i.e. Pitbull, Rott, Doberman, wolf
> 
> The bull mastiff and the german shepherd is usually okay with most. We have 1 or 2 carriers that won't take them.
Click to expand...


And I appreciate the refusal to insure wolves and pit bulls (I don't think there's anything inherrantly wrong with pit bulls but they're only as safe as their owners and often that's enough said.) The insurance company's aversion to GSDs, Dobermans, Rottweilers and maybe some other listed dogs makes it seems like they (the companies) are stuck in the past. These have not been the dog-of-choice for society's most aggressive people for a long time.


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## Fernando

ChiKat said:


> Ugh that's ridiculous...ban the deed, not the breed
> My mom was attacked by a Golden Retriever, why not add them to the list?



I heard that recently. I've never had any experience w/ retrievers.


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## APBT_Fanatic

I fully disagree with "lists" like this in the first place. One, because this list is very discriminating. Two, because I have been growled at and snapped at more by small dogs (Chihuahuas in particular!), than any Pit Bull, Staffie, large dog, or any of the breeds in your list above... and I own Pits, rescue them, and work with them daily! I pick up strays off the street and have only been growled at by ONE Pittie, and that was after he was *dumped *in a parking lot by his owner, ran into a busy street and *hit by a car*. He let me put a leash on him and wait with him. I can not think of a small dog I have caught that did not, at one point, growl at me.

The "black list" indirectly kills more dogs in the shelters, as I (and many other rescues and shelters) have had many people looking to adopt or foster a Pittie (or Pittie mix) who lived in an apartment, etc., but come to find out (through our application screening process), they are not allowed that breed where they live.

I can see why insurance companies do this "list", because they fall into believing everything the media says, but I honestly think it is very stupid. 

In regards to the comment, "but the media doesnâ€™t care unless it's bad so the Insurance company wouldn't bother taking them into account", people get bit by dogs on a regular basis. The media only cares about and follows/reports dogs of breeds that THEY have already given a bad rap. You never see Chihuahuas, Poodles, Labs, etc. bite people on the news.... only the Pitties, German Sheps, Rotties, etc. because ignorant people have (and still continue) give them a bad name.

The level of ignorance in some people is completely baffling sometimes. So many people are uneducated when it comes to dogs, dog breeds, and aggression.

There is a small handful of insurance companies out there who DO cover Pitties, and all the breeds you have listed above. I highly commend those companies and think they should be highly supported.


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## Fernando

CtTortoiseMom said:


> I think it is more claim statistics than media. A dog bite on the insured premises is a Homeowners claim. Regardless of how bad the bite, the risk of medical and legal fees is the concern.



Yes, the Homeowners Liability portion of their policy. And like you said regardless of how bad the damage is. 

However, the media is most likely to report on dog bites that invlove really bad injuries or death. There are carriers that take the media's word for it unfortunately. 

I can remember when the iPhone came out. People started calling trying to insure their expensive phone. Some carriers put that coverage on hold until they were able to figure out if they would take the risk or not...even before there had been enough statistics to properly make that decision. 

So I think it's a little of both from my understanding...but of course that's what risk management departments are there for.


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## APBT_Fanatic

Edna said:


> fmadrigal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edna said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad my homeowners insurance carrier has a shorter list.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm almost positive the more common ones in the list are probably on your insurance carriers list too. i.e. Pitbull, Rott, Doberman, wolf
> 
> The bull mastiff and the german shepherd is usually okay with most. We have 1 or 2 carriers that won't take them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And I appreciate the refusal to insure wolves and pit bulls (I don't think there's anything inherrantly wrong with pit bulls but they're only as safe as their owners and often that's enough said.) The insurance company's aversion to GSDs, Dobermans, Rottweilers and maybe some other listed dogs makes it seems like they (the companies) are stuck in the past. These have not been the dog-of-choice for society's most aggressive people for a long time.
Click to expand...


Correction to your statement: ANY dog breed is ONLY as SAFE as his/her OWNER. That's not fair just to say that about Pits. Any dog, any breed, can bite, and can be trained to be aggressive.

If a dog is only as safe as their owner, how would the situation of a good owner with a friendly Pittie wanting to rent an apartment, and a horrible owner with a trained aggressive Lab wanting to rent an apartment be handled? You wouldn't allow the friendly Pit, because he's a "Pit", but the Lab is welcome because he doesn't have a "bad rap"... despite the fact he is aggressive and actually MORE of a liability.


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## ChiKat

Great point APBT!


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## Edna

APBT_Fanatic said:


> Correction to your statement: ANY dog breed is ONLY as SAFE as his/her OWNER. That's not fair just to say that about Pits. Any dog, any breed, can bite, and can be trained to be aggressive.
> 
> If a dog is only as safe as their owner, how would the situation of a good owner with a friendly Pittie wanting to rent an apartment, and a horrible owner with a trained aggressive Lab wanting to rent an apartment be handled? You wouldn't allow the friendly Pit, because he's a "Pit", but the Lab is welcome because he doesn't have a "bad rap"... despite the fact he is aggressive and actually MORE of a liability.



TRUE!! I accept your correction to my statement. Any dog can be a problem.


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## Turtulas-Len

This isn't new ,About 15 years ago we had Geico car insurance, and a different home insurance carrier, Geico called trying to get us to switch to their home owners policy, so I listened to them until they started asking about the dogs we had, when I was naming the different breeds, everything was quiet on the other end of the phone until I said Rottweiler then I heard-- Can IT BITE-- I said I have never heard of a dog that's not capable of biting.Needless to say I didn't switch home owners policies but I did find a new auto insurance carrier and will never give Geico any of my business again.I think it is SILLY and UNFAIR to pick certain breeds as bad dogs. I have a 3 year old Rottie now, one of the sweetest dogs in the world,but yes she is capable of biting, as all dogs are. Len


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## APBT_Fanatic

I do not remember the entire story, and this is getting a little off-topic, but I believe that if you have AAA and need to be towed, they will NOT take any dogs you have in your car.... only the humans.

A rescuer awhile back got stalled on the freeway with her senior dog. She called AAA and they came to tow her, but then said they could not take the dog too. She called the company and they sent out another truck/drive and said he would be able to take the dog too... but that driver didn't either. The person ended up walking in the heat with her senior dog off the freeway.-- Just a heads up!


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## terryo

We've always had Bull Terriers. Blue slept with my son since he was a toddler. Now we have Eddie, and my grandkids hang all over him, we have loads of company. I love dinner parties and have them all the time. Everyone loves him and we have never had a incident. It's sad that they generalize like that. It had nothing to do with the breed, and all to do with the owner, and how he was socialized. I don't think I have anything like that in my homeowners insurance. I have to ask my husband.


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## dmmj

well the only one I agree wit is a wolf hybrid is simply because only experienced individuals should own those, but I think having a list makes the insurance companies not think, like zero tolerance rules in schools, that way no on ever has to think. BTW I am more concerned about a chiuauauwawa (misspelled I know than I am a large dog. My neighbor years and years ago had a pitbull, nicest dog you had ever seen, it is a shame a dog species should be labeled as mean simply because every so often there is a attack.


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## Jacqui

I could see the tow person not allowing the dog in the cab with him, for all we know he could be allergic to him. I guess, I have always had luck and when I am in a bad situation, I have always be "rescued" by another animal lover or if not a lover, atleast somebody to treat my animals as a living being with needs too.

Funny somebody mentioned the Goldens, for such a gentle breed I have seen several nasty Goldens. I have been around more nasty labs, fact is, we currently have a lab mix that has a nasty disposition. With time and lots of work, he is doing really good, but like an alcoholic, it takes just a small drink (or in his case a small reason) to slide back just a little into his old ways. Such as another dog showing or making any kind of aggressive move toward him or his human pack, humans doing the same will set him off too for that matter. Deep deep down is a good dog, but he had no early socialization and then no training.


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## terryo

I have two Chihuahua's David and one is the sweetest dog and loves everyone. The other one must have been abused and will try to bite your ankle (and she has succeeded many times) when you leave the house. But I didn't see Chihuahua's on that list.


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## Fernando

I totally agree with you guys. The main company I represent will ask a variety of underwriting questions and if the client 'passes' these questions they qualify for the appetite of the carrier. 

However outside inspections are done. And if the carrier finds out that they insured has one of the dogs on the list they are asked to remove it. Not only do they have to remove it but they have to show proof that it was removed. Sometimes that means they have to show proof that the dog has been given to the pound or has been put to sleep (of course the insured almost never does the latter) Its pretty absurd In my opinion and we have lost quiet a few client's over it. 

There HAS been clients that have actually gotten rid of their dogs because our rates were too good I guess....

I also understand that pittbulls should be removed off of the list in fact my Wife swears by it she grew up with 2 pitbulls that were stray and that were found in her backyard one day and they were the nicest dogs she's ever had. 

Like dmmj said companies make these lists so that they can avoid working on a case to case bases. They should be updated bi-annually or similar. The statistics I have in my office were last updated in 1996 =/


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## APBT_Fanatic

fmadrigal said:


> However outside inspections are done. And if the carrier finds out that they insured has one of the dogs on the list they are asked to remove it. Not only do they have to remove it but they have to show proof that it was removed. Sometimes that means they have to show proof that the dog has been given to the pound or has been put to sleep (of course the insured almost never does the latter) Its pretty absurd In my opinion and we have lost quiet a few client's over it.



I hate to say it and sound rude, but I am glad people dropped their insurance with your company, on those terms. I would do exactly the same thing. Telling people to get rid of their dogs without giving them other positive potential solutions is really low....


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## Fernando

APBT_Fanatic said:


> fmadrigal said:
> 
> 
> 
> However outside inspections are done. And if the carrier finds out that they insured has one of the dogs on the list they are asked to remove it. Not only do they have to remove it but they have to show proof that it was removed. Sometimes that means they have to show proof that the dog has been given to the pound or has been put to sleep (of course the insured almost never does the latter) Its pretty absurd In my opinion and we have lost quiet a few client's over it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hate to say it and sound rude, but I am glad people dropped their insurance with your company, on those terms. I would do exactly the same thing. Telling people to get rid of their dogs without giving them other positive potential solutions is really low....
Click to expand...


Well thats the main carrier, other carriers will allow a penalty of purjury statement that says they no longer own the animal. The carrier wont ask what they did with it.


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## Yvonne G

I'm really surprised that this is such a popular thread.

I've always had a doberman. At one time I had three of them. The way I got around the bad dog on my homeowner's insurance was to show them the certificate that my dog passed an obedience class. I think that most salesmen really don't want to enforce that rule.


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## Fernando

emysemys said:


> I'm really surprised that this is such a popular thread.
> 
> I've always had a doberman. At one time I had three of them. The way I got around the bad dog on my homeowner's insurance was to show them the certificate that my dog passed an obedience class. I think that most salesmen really don't want to enforce that rule.




Haha exactly right Yvonne $_$


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## Jacqui

I think in my case, the insurance agent had better be more concern about me biting somebody then my dogs.

I own dogs, the dogs are part of my family and because of that I rarely let anybody into my home. I don't want to risk some fool person doing something to cause one of my animals to do something back to them (bite them or even snap).


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## DerekS

Just gonna jump in with the majority and give my 2 cents. I am a meter reader for a local utility company and I visit anywhere from 300 to over 1000 different homes each day and encounter A LOT of dogs. I've been chased, barked and growled at by just about every type of dog. I've only ever been bitten by smaller dogs but that's probably because I'm more cautious around the bigger ones. I also know from experience that a lot of dogs act completely different when there owners aren't around. Don't get me wrong, I love dogs (I have 2) and ALL dogs can and most will bite given the right circumstances. Breeds have nothing to do with it.


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## APBT_Fanatic

DerekS said:


> Just gonna jump in with the majority and give my 2 cents. I am a meter reader for a local utility company and I visit anywhere from 300 to over 1000 different homes each day and encounter A LOT of dogs. I've been chased, barked and growled at by just about every type of dog. I've only ever been bitten by smaller dogs but that's probably because I'm more cautious around the bigger ones. I also know from experience that a lot of dogs act completely different when there owners aren't around. Don't get me wrong, I love dogs (I have 2) and ALL dogs can and most will bite given the right circumstances. Breeds have nothing to do with it.



The thing with dogs acting aggressive towards mail delivery people, meter readers, etc. is solely the fact that they are an "intruder" onto the dog's property/home.

Yes, many dogs would act dfferently when home alone, in the backyard without their owners, as they are then working to protect their home against strangers.


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## Angi

Well I was attact by a Doberman. It was in about 1982 and I still have scars. It left me terrified of dogs for years. I don't think it was because dobermans are bad, but this one had bad owners. The problem is that if people that do not properly train or care for a powerful dog have one, then it puts other people in danger. It is kind of like a gun. A gun is not dangerous, but a person with a gun can be. I see pitbulls and Rottwilers alone or with other dogs walking the street once in a while and find it scary. If their owner were good responsable owners they wouldn't be out wandering the streets. I think you should have to have a special license to have these dogs and training should be required.
BTW~ had I been attact by a little dog it could not have knocked me down and dragged me by the leg. The owner did come out and call the dog off. I was walking down the street in front of the house it lived at. It didn't even bark. Isn't that strange?*-


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## Tom

I have a bumper sticker. It reads: "Ban ignorance, not breeds."

Angi what happened to you is terrible but government regulation and fees are not the solution.

No its not strange that it didn't bark. Dogs bark to warn you. Its like a rattle snake. It does not WANT to bite or fight with you, so it tries to warn you away. Barking dogs are chicken sh**. An experienced decoy can make them tun tail and run in a split second while empty handed. The silent ones are the ones to worry about. They don't want to avoid a fight or warn you, they want to "get" you.

I've seen some crazy stuff with dobies and GSDs in the last 19 years that I've been a professional trainer specializing in aggression. Crazy stuff I tell you.

Talk to any vet tech and they will tell you the worst dogs to see at the vet hospital are labs and golden retrievers. Chows are pretty bad too. Pit bulls, or any of the variations called a "pit bull" are one of their favorite dogs to work on. You can poke and prod them with needles all day and they reward you with kisses. There are exceptions to all of these generalities.

I hate these "ban" lists from insurance companies. It creates a lot of injustice.


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## Balboa

Personal experience flavors all these things. I'd like to say I don't believe in bad dogs but.....

I've only ever had to rescue someone from a dog once, and it was a pit bull. I had to literally beat the dog off the little girl it was attacking with a shovel , and of course it was always the sweetest dog ever for its owners.

You'll never find a pit bull in my home.


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## dmmj

This question goes to the OP how do you handle it when you have people who have a so called banned dog but they claim it is not, in my mobile home park they also have a banned list, and all you hive to do is get a form from a local vet stating it is not that dog on the banned list and they have to drop it, so we have got a couple of pit bulls who look like pit bulls but according to the paperwork thy are not pit bulls. And lt me state I am not afraid of chiwawas (where is my spell checker when I need it) or any other dog, I have been around dogs my entire life I know when I approach a dog 99 percent of the time if it is friendly or not. Ignorance is usually the problem not the dog, and sadly the good dogs get lumped in with the bad ones, of any breed.


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## APBT_Fanatic

dmmj said:


> This question goes to the OP how do you handle it when you have people who have a so called banned dog but they claim it is not, in my mobile home park they also have a banned list, and all you hive to do is get a form from a local vet stating it is not that dog on the banned list and they have to drop it, so we have got a couple of pit bulls who look like pit bulls but according to the paperwork thy are not pit bulls. And lt me state I am not afraid of chiwawas (where is my spell checker when I need it) or any other dog, I have been around dogs my entire life I know when I approach a dog 99 percent of the time if it is friendly or not. Ignorance is usually the problem not the dog, and sadly the good dogs get lumped in with the bad ones, of any breed.



Okay, I found it!
I think everybody should try this link and count how many tries it takes you! Read the instructions at the top first.

Please note!-- "There are 20+ breeds that are commonly incorrectly identified as pit bulls."

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html


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## Tom

Balboa said:


> Personal experience flavors all these things. I'd like to say I don't believe in bad dogs but.....
> 
> I've only ever had to rescue someone from a dog once, and it was a pit bull. I had to literally beat the dog off the little girl it was attacking with a shovel , and of course it was always the sweetest dog ever for its owners.
> 
> You'll never find a pit bull in my home.



Fair enough balboa.

I get called for the worst of the worst. I've only ever seen two bad pit bulls. One just had a screw that would randomly get loose and the other just wanted to hurt people. These were very unusual cases and I've seen hundreds of pitties that you couldn't make bite. Often we tried on the bite work field and lots of pits just don't want to play the go bite the bad guy game. In comparison, about 25% of the labs and retrievers I work with want to eat somebodies a**. I have a neighbor with a lab who charges me almost every day. When I bark back and hold my ground or advance the dog backs off. They have not taken me up on repeated offers to solve the problem for free, even though they have recommended me to their close friends to help with their dogs. Some people just want to have ill-tempered dogs. Help is available. These problems can always be solved.


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## APBT_Fanatic

Just because this involves Pitties/Staffies and "a picture is worth a thousand words", here are some our my rescue's dogs, who have been placed in fosters/adopters with young kids.

Elfie, a partially deaf Staffie, fostered by family with young kids, adopted by a military family with a young kid!:

Foster pics-

















Adopter pics-






(Sleeping on the floor.)





Amber, Pittie, adopted by a military family (they also adopted another Pit from us too!):







Ryan "Sharky", a Pittie/Mastiff mix:


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## dmmj

Any dog no matter the breed that will tolerate a pink tutu and toys put on them, deserve a medal.


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## APBT_Fanatic

dmmj said:


> Any dog no matter the breed that will tolerate a pink tutu and toys put on them, deserve a medal.



Haha! That's funny! I have more!!!

Hershey, a Pittie mix, in her foster home.:













Remy, Pittie mix, with an adopter.








Oh... and we have placed an ex-bait Pittie with an autistic 7 yr old boy, because her temperament was that wonderful! I don't have a picture of them together, but here she is! Last I heard, she has really helped the little boy.


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## wildponey21

just to let you know bull Terriers are not mean they are very loving dogs and are very good with kids. I have never seen a bull terrier kill or hurt people like pit bulls do. So you should let someone know that bull terriers dot belonmg on that list. also Staffordshire Terrier (Pit bull)and Staffordshire bull terrier are both pit bulls that both have locking jaws.


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## Tom

wildponey21 said:


> just to let you know bull Terriers are not mean they are very loving dogs and are very good with kids. I have never seen a bull terrier kill or hurt people like pit bulls do. So you should let someone know that bull terriers dot belonmg on that list. also Staffordshire Terrier (Pit bull)and Staffordshire bull terrier are both pit bulls that both have locking jaws.



This whole post is nothing but ignorance. Just because you've been around a few Bull Terriers that didn't go after anyone while you were standing there, does not mean that ALL of them are angels. There are bad ones too, just like every other breed.

Staffies and Pitties do NOT have locking jaws. Their jaws are no different than any other dog. In fact they tend to have a lot less bite strength than any of the typical "guard dog" breeds. I am saying this as a person who has taken thousands upon thousands of bites from just about every dog breed there is.

Dogs don't "turn" on people suddenly out of the blue. That's just totally wrong.


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## CtTortoiseMom

Tom said:


> wildponey21 said:
> 
> 
> 
> just to let you know bull Terriers are not mean they are very loving dogs and are very good with kids. I have never seen a bull terrier kill or hurt people like pit bulls do. So you should let someone know that bull terriers dot belonmg on that list. also Staffordshire Terrier (Pit bull)and Staffordshire bull terrier are both pit bulls that both have locking jews.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This whole post is nothing but ignorance. Just because you've been around a few Bull Terriers that didn't go after anyone while you were standing there, does not mean that ALL of them are angels. There are bad ones too, just like every other breed.
> 
> Staffies and Pitties do NOT have locking jaws. Their jaws are no different than any other dog. In fact they tend to have a lot less bite strength than any of the typical "guard dog" breeds. I am saying this as a person who has taken thousands upon thousands of bites from just about every dog breed there is.
> 
> Dogs don't "turn" on people suddenly out of the blue. That's just totally wrong.
Click to expand...


Most of her post's are that of a petulant child trying to start a fight. Supposed vet tech that has wild dogs and want's to feed her tort. Monkey food. Good riddance.


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## Yvonne G

Moderator note: I removed some of the posts in this thread that referred back to a post that I modified. The post contained a sentence that was not acceptable language for our forum. - Yvonne G.


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## Skyler Nell

Well, I've had a lot of experience with German Shepards and have never found one to be aggressive unless that was their command (police dogs). I don't really think they belong on the list, it's probably just because they're big and powerful but they are extremely intelligent animals! One of the main reason they've been chosen as police, and bomb sniffing dogs.

Also, I had been afraid of Pitbulls my entire life (or even anything that looked like a pit  ). Until I met my friend's Pitbull, Caddie. It is the SWEETEST dog! and I totally trust it. I think these dogs are misunderstood. Yes, sometimes they do turn on their owners but all dogs can, you just don't usually hear about that because most other dogs aren't as powerful or popular. What you don't hear on the news is the many many pitbulls who are sweet their entire lives! Like they said earlier don't blame the breed, blame the dog. 

All that being said, I don't think I would want ANY big dog around my (future ) young children haha. Many times they don't know their strength and that would just make me too nervous. 

I will be sticking with tortoises, thank you very much


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## Tom

fmadrigal said:


> Tom,
> 
> Where does that come from? Are there dogs that DO have lock jaws? Or does that even exist?



I don't honestly know where that silly fantasy started. I think it is because the fighting strategy of some pits is to grab the other dog and hold on for dear life and not let go. But they are just trying real hard and very determined. There is no "locking" mechanism. All "protection" breeds should do the same thing. Most well bred German Shepards do the same thing. They are supposed to grab the bad guy, with a full mouth, and not let go until they are told to. We don't want them re-gripping or "corn-cobbing" up and down the bad guys arm or body. Remember the purpose of sending the dog to bite is to stop the criminal from committing his violent act. If a big dog is attached to an arm, that arm cannot be used for violence against an innocent. That is also why K9 officers are (or should be) taught to cuff the perp, BEFORE outing the dog. In that situation you also don't want the dog to let go of the bad guy and bite the officer who is trying to cuff the bad guy.

Right Greg?



Skyler Nell said:


> Well, I've had a lot of experience with German Shepards and have never found one to be aggressive unless that was their command (police dogs). I don't really think they belong on the list, it's probably just because they're big and powerful but they are extremely intelligent animals! One of the main reason they've been chosen as police, and bomb sniffing dogs.
> 
> Also, I had been afraid of Pitbulls my entire life (or even anything that looked like a pit  ). Until I met my friend's Pitbull, Caddie. It is the SWEETEST dog! and I totally trust it. I think these dogs are misunderstood. Yes, sometimes they do turn on their owners but all dogs can, you just don't usually hear about that because most other dogs aren't as powerful or popular. What you don't hear on the news is the many many pitbulls who are sweet their entire lives! Like they said earlier don't blame the breed, blame the dog.
> 
> All that being said, I don't think I would want ANY big dog around my (future ) young children haha. Many times they don't know their strength and that would just make me too nervous.
> 
> I will be sticking with tortoises, thank you very much



Skyler, your post inspires me to share a bit.

I've seen a lot of good GSDs. But, I've also seen a whole lot of really bad ones too. I've seen two bad pits, but thousands of sweet, harmless ones. Most of the time the police trained GSDs are the safest, happiest and most stable. Pet GSDs don't know what to do with their innate urge to bite people. Remember, the GSD was created and bred to bite people. That is what they are for. If you train them when and how to bite, it not only puts them under control, it gives them a safe constructive outlet for the drives that they feel and are born with. If you just stick them in a backyard and walk away, it often leads to serious problems.

By contrast, pit bulls were bred to A. Bait bulls, and B. fight other pit bulls. They are bred to NEVER show man aggression. In fact, in the old days, in the dog fighting world, if a pit bull showed any aggression toward a person it was euthanized right there on the spot, in front of the crowd. Man aggression was NOT tolerated in the breed.

If I had the choice (not that this would ever happen) to leave my daughter in a closed room with a GSD or pit bull, I would choose the pit almost every time.


----------



## DeanS

The ONLY "dog" on this list that I agree with is the Wolf Hybrid...the reason being that there is no approved rabies vaccine for hybrids (or pure wolves, for that matter). Other than that, unless you're in the dog-fighting business...and if you are, we'll find you ...there is no reason for this list to exist. All of these are sound breeds and excellent companion animals! Just another ploy for insurance agencies to rip consumers off!


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## Skyler Nell

Hmm interesting information Tom, I had never heard that they were bred to bite people. I have a GSD and she is so sweet. Quite timid actually and hasn't bitten or shown aggression towards anyone, even when some teenagers hopped the fence into our yard haha  I wouldn't ever feel uncomfortable around a GSD but I guess that just proves that society really sways peoples opinions on dogs and aggressive behaviors, and how comfortable we are around them.


----------



## Fernando

DeanS said:


> Just another ploy for insurance agencies to rip consumers off!



In this case Dean, I don't think it's a matter of ripping people off more so it's the carrier "avoiding a liability". Even though thier lists are really out dated as someone had mentioned earlier. 

So technically they are just LOSING business because of the list if anything...

I'm still curious about Chow Chow's. I've only known two in my life through family members and they were always locked up when visitors were over because they seems 'agressive' towards them...IDK that could have just been the owners fault again.


----------



## Balboa

Tom's the pro, but I could've sworn German Shepards were bread to herd animals, which is where the tendancy to bite comes from. Any of the herding animals may get nippy as that is one of their methods of controlling the herd. This instinct sometimes comes out on people(kids usually) that aren't acting like good sheep and doing what the dog is telling them to do, etc.. Later on they were found to be good guard dogs, and maybe that has come to the forefront of their breeding.

I recall the dobie as actually being breed for prison guard duty from rottweiler and other stock.


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## Edna

emysemys said:


> Moderator note: I removed some of the posts in this thread that referred back to a post that I modified. The post contained a sentence that was not acceptable language for our forum. - Yvonne G.



Thank you. I was shocked.


----------



## Skyler Nell

Balboa said:


> Tom's the pro, but I could've sworn German Shepards were bread to herd animals, which is where the tendancy to bite comes from. Any of the herding animals may get nippy as that is one of their methods of controlling the herd. This instinct sometimes comes out on people(kids usually) that aren't acting like good sheep and doing what the dog is telling them to do, etc.. Later on they were found to be good guard dogs, and maybe that has come to the forefront of their breeding.
> 
> I recall the dobie as actually being breed for prison guard duty from rottweiler and other stock.



Hahahaha actually the nipping thing is SO true 
When my brother and I were little we would stand in front of our German Shepard and stomp our feet then take off running to get her to chase us, she would bound after barking and wagging her tail  and you usually got a light nip on the behind once she caught up to you haha


----------



## Balboa

Skyler Nell said:


> Balboa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tom's the pro, but I could've sworn German Shepards were bread to herd animals, which is where the tendancy to bite comes from. Any of the herding animals may get nippy as that is one of their methods of controlling the herd. This instinct sometimes comes out on people(kids usually) that aren't acting like good sheep and doing what the dog is telling them to do, etc.. Later on they were found to be good guard dogs, and maybe that has come to the forefront of their breeding.
> 
> I recall the dobie as actually being breed for prison guard duty from rottweiler and other stock.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hahahaha actually the nipping thing is SO true
> When my brother and I were little we would stand in front of our German Shepard and stomp our feet then take off running to get her to chase us, she would bound after barking and wagging her tail  and you usually got a light nip on the behind once she caught up to you haha
Click to expand...


LOL so cute and so scary


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## CtTortoiseMom

My Basset Hound will be two in May. (yes, we will be having a party and a cake for her). She has a vicious bark as long as the person's back is turned. If a person that she does not know walks toward her she will run away while peeing. Also if an animal like a fox comes in the yard she will ditch the kids and run on her stubby legs like a greyhound into the house. That's probably why Basset Hounds did not make the list.


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## Fernando

Here is my buddy's Block Head German Rott

He's one of the nicest dogs I know. He's 1 year old this Sunday.


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## Skyler Nell

Balboa said:


> Skyler Nell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Balboa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tom's the pro, but I could've sworn German Shepards were bread to herd animals, which is where the tendancy to bite comes from. Any of the herding animals may get nippy as that is one of their methods of controlling the herd. This instinct sometimes comes out on people(kids usually) that aren't acting like good sheep and doing what the dog is telling them to do, etc.. Later on they were found to be good guard dogs, and maybe that has come to the forefront of their breeding.
> 
> I recall the dobie as actually being breed for prison guard duty from rottweiler and other stock.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hahahaha actually the nipping thing is SO true
> When my brother and I were little we would stand in front of our German Shepard and stomp our feet then take off running to get her to chase us, she would bound after barking and wagging her tail  and you usually got a light nip on the behind once she caught up to you haha
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL so cute and so scary
Click to expand...


We did that over and over and over again haha 
It's weird to me how they know to be gentle, she never drew blood or bite hard enough for it to actually hurt, it was just like a little puppy nip (though she wasn't a puppy). Dogs are quite smart usually

Cute dog Fernando!


----------



## Tom

Balboa said:


> Tom's the pro, but I could've sworn German Shepards were bread to herd animals, which is where the tendancy to bite comes from. Any of the herding animals may get nippy as that is one of their methods of controlling the herd. This instinct sometimes comes out on people(kids usually) that aren't acting like good sheep and doing what the dog is telling them to do, etc.. Later on they were found to be good guard dogs, and maybe that has come to the forefront of their breeding.
> 
> I recall the dobie as actually being breed for prison guard duty from rottweiler and other stock.



Max Von Stephanitz founded/created the breed from local herding dogs back near the turn of the 19th century in Germany. If you look at pics of the original GSDs, I see a lot of Belgian Shepard influence. Over many decades they morphed into what they are today. So the drive, intelligence and structure did originally come from herding lines, but they were bred with guarding and police work in mind.


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## RV's mom

fmadrigal said:


> Here is my buddy's Block Head German Rott
> 
> He's one of the nicest dogs I know. He's 1 year old this Sunday.



what a sweet face! Personally, I feel the dog is only as bad as the person who owns/cares for them. A bad personality in the human (or lacking personality) will equal a bad or lacking personality in the animal. 

teri


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## wildponey21

yes they do have locking jews i know i worl at kennel and at a vet . That is why when they bite they can't let go they lock ther jews.


----------



## Yvonne G

wildponey21 said:


> yes they do have locking jaws i know i worl at kennel and at a vet . That is why when they bite they can't let go they lock ther jaws.



Hi Tabatha:

Please try to have an open mind and be ready to learn new things. Tom has been a dog trainer for a very long time. You can believe what he has to say about dogs. When a dog clamps down in a bite, he hasn't "locked" his jaw. He's using his muscles to actually hold the bite hard. Because he WANTS to, not because he can't help it.


----------



## Fernando

wildponey21 said:


> yes they do have locking jews i know i worl at kennel and at a vet . That is why when they bite they can't let go they lock ther jews.



I've never seen someone on this forum begging for this much attention. 
.
.
.
.

doh! I just gave her some.


----------



## Tom

With every individual dog and every breed there is an element of nature vs. nurture. Some dogs really are just born bad. Dogs that are born bad can usually be made good in the right hands. Dogs that are born good can certainly be made bad in the wrong hands.

When I take animals to the movie sets, everyone talks to me about their pets. Every single person who has "rescued" a dog tells me that their dog has problems because it was "abused" before they got it. That's every single dog every day for 15 years. Apparently, our society is chock full o' dog abusers.

What these people fail to realize is that some dogs are just born timid and hand shy. I tested a pup like this yesterday. 9 weeks old, very well raised and socialized by my aunt who bred her. Never hit or abused in any way. It was ducking for cover and trying to hide from me for no reason. Poor thing was in a panic. I don't doubt that some percentage of dogs in the pound were somehow abused in one way or another, but ALL of them? No way.


----------



## DeanS

wildponey21 said:


> yes they do have locking jews i know i worl at kennel and at a vet . That is why when they bite they can't let go they lock ther jews.



Well, I work for Animal Control in the City of Los Angeles, and I can assure you that pitbulls *DO NOT HAVE LOCKING JAWS*! Look at the shape of their heads...solid bone and muscle. Look at a wolf hamstringing a caribou or a hyena taking a chunk out of a wildebeest on the run or a leopard or jaguar hoisting their hundred pound meal up a tree. It's all about jaw strength...muscle and skeletal. And if you want a real PITBULL EXPERT to pound this into your head once and for all, then contact Tia Torres (that's right...*PITBULLS AND PAROLEES*) at www.vrcpitbull.com and she'll be more than willing to lay out all the facts for you!

BTW, are you anti-semitic? It's 'jaws' not 'jews'...you made that mistake twice in the same post! Not a common typing error, either!


----------



## Edna

Tom said:


> With every individual dog and every breed there is an element of nature vs. nurture. Some dogs really are just born bad. Dogs that are born bad can usually be made good in the right hands. Dogs that are born good can certainly be made bad in the wrong hands.
> 
> When I take animals to the movie sets, everyone talks to me about their pets. Every single person who has "rescued" a dog tells me that their dog has problems because it was "abused" before they got it. That's every single dog every day for 15 years. Apparently, our society is chock full o' dog abusers.
> 
> What these people fail to realize is that some dogs are just born timid and hand shy. I tested a pup like this yesterday. 9 weeks old, very well raised and socialized by my aunt who bred her. Never hit or abused in any way. It was ducking for cover and trying to hide from me for no reason. Poor thing was in a panic. I don't doubt that some percentage of dogs in the pound were somehow abused in one way or another, but ALL of them? No way.



Thank you for posting this, Tom, so true. There is kind of a continuum between bold/agressive and fearful/shy and individual pups from a given litter can fall anywhere along the continuum. Breeders could do us all a favor by only breeding from nice dogs who are niether overly aggressive nor overly shy.

I knew a woman who was showing beagles who had a knack for building the confidence of the fearful ones and could turn into bold performers in the show ring. When I am choosing a puppy, I avoid the fearful ones because I've never had any luck with turning them around.


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## Yvonne G

Take it easy there, big fella...don't let a forum post get to you.


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## Marty333

I was attacked by a Pomeranian when I was a kid it knocked me to the ground and attacked me. They should be on that list LOL I have never met a nice well trained Pomeranian yet and I am waiting for the day I do. That Pomeranian is my neighbors and is still alive. I don't hate the dog I just hate the owners who denied that it was aggressive.


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## ChiKat

wildponey21 said:


> yes they do have locking jews i know i worl at kennel and at a vet . That is why when they bite they can't let go they lock ther jews.



That doesn't even make sense. So when they bite down on a toy or bone their jaw becomes locked? 
Unfortunately it is a commonly believed myth. 
I'm not saying this to offend you, but just because you work at a vet's office doesn't automatically make you a dog expert.


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## pdrobber

haha I'm just laughing at those posts. but in seriousness, Tom, or anyone that might know, do pitbulls have stronger bite capabilities, physiologically speaking, than other breeds?

I recall reading that they were used in the past for baiting bulls because of this trait and they could hold onto the bulls face as it swung them around, or something like that.

Also maybe their bite seems "locked" because they're very loyal and determined? (also something I've heard, I work at a no kill shelter here in NYC and my coworker has a pitbull. He LOVES them and tells me all the little facts he knows) He mentioned to me that one of the first dogs to be honored for its service in the military was a pitbull. 

Could their loyalty and bite strength be reasons why they're used for fighting? 

That, plus their overabundance in city shelters, the same areas that these "bad neighborhoods" are where attacks take place and fights are held. (the NYC ACC is right in East Harlem on 110th street...) They're readily available and inexpensive!

It's my opinion that, most of these people not only have their dogs pent up all day because they're working class people but the dogs have 
no stimulation or exercise even when the people are home because they might keep them in the yard all the time or tied out. On top of that, the low income levels mean the dogs are getting low quality food and limited if any vet care. Forget about any socialization, training, classes, or daily walks. The young men think it's macho and cool to have a pitbull and/or want it as a guard dog, or to fight. No wonder they have such a bad reputation. 

All of these things could happen to any dog and do it's just you don't see as many schnauzers, labradoodles and puggles in neighborhoods where its not culturally and socially the norm.

I usually kind of laugh to hide my frustration when people looking to adopt or volunteer are afraid of the pitbulls or think they have to be extra careful "cuz ya know, she's a pitbull..." 
To that I tell them, you should be more careful with the 1 year old untrained chocolate lab who's destructive and sometimes exhibits aggression being cooped up in the kennel. Not exactly the same as the service lab you see carrying diapers to the mom changing the baby and being ever so gentle with the baby, letting its ears and fur get pulled every direction.


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## DeanS

It has been proven that the Malinois and the Chow chow have the strongest (psi) bite! Pitbulls aren't even in the top 5.


----------



## APBT_Fanatic

Tom said:


> With every individual dog and every breed there is an element of nature vs. nurture. Some dogs really are just born bad. Dogs that are born bad can usually be made good in the right hands. Dogs that are born good can certainly be made bad in the wrong hands.
> 
> When I take animals to the movie sets, everyone talks to me about their pets. Every single person who has "rescued" a dog tells me that their dog has problems because it was "abused" before they got it. That's every single dog every day for 15 years. Apparently, our society is chock full o' dog abusers.
> 
> What these people fail to realize is that some dogs are just born timid and hand shy. I tested a pup like this yesterday. 9 weeks old, very well raised and socialized by my aunt who bred her. Never hit or abused in any way. It was ducking for cover and trying to hide from me for no reason. Poor thing was in a panic. I don't doubt that some percentage of dogs in the pound were somehow abused in one way or another, but ALL of them? No way.



I think that both Tom (being a dog trainer) and Dean (working at an animal shelter) will agree with what I am going to say.

Yes, there are many dogs who are physically abused by their owners. I am not only talking to the extremes of beating them with a metal rod, or kicking the sh*t out of them (although these things DO happen all too often), but when it comes to the AVERAGE dog owner, any negative physical contact with a dog (hitting the nose/face with newspaper, hitting the dog's butt, etc.), if done a few times, CAN and WILL change a dog's behavior. Even verbal abuse (screaming at the dog, scaring the sh*t out of him when giving him a "correction", etc.) does harm.

In regards to the fact that many people adopt a dog from a shelter or rescue and then state the dog acts a certain way because he was "abused" in his past, that very well may be true (the fact he was physically abused), or it could be a number of other things.... One being the fact when a dog is dumped for death at a shelter, that is a VERY traumatizing experience for most dogs. Some dogs are still able to come out of the shelter seemingly unharmed in the sense of psychological damage, but others come out much worse off. Additionally, while I know Dean works for a great (though high-kill) shelter system, there ARE other shelters where the workers could not care less about the animals, they treat them like sh*t and they DO abuse them. These are typically the "lower-class" and more run down shelters. This shelter is not "run down", but works as a good, minor, example.... I was at the Long Beach Shelter a few years back and the shelter employee who assisted us was AFRAID of a tiny 15 pound dog; a dog who was just so afraid and confused as to what was going on (though NOT showing aggression). The employee would not step in the kennel to get the leash on the dog, then when he finally did and wanted to take it off, he poked and prodded the dog with a MOP HANDLE to get the leash off, because he was so afraid of a little dog, he didn't want to get too close or touch her. This is a kinder example of abuse within the shelter systems. I have heard that employees have kicked the dogs, etc. Regardless, a dog does not even need to be physically abused at a shelter in order to change in behavior. Shelters are loud, smelly, over crowded, and extremely stressful and scary places for dogs who are either A) use to a home environment, or even B) use to living in a backyard.

Another factor that comes into play is the fact that many, many "average" dog owners do not know the first thing about dog behavior or dog training. People do not know how to recognize certain signs that will ultimately lead to bad behavior if not dealt with in time. They do not know how to correctly read their dog, be a strong pack leader, or work with their dog to correct bad behavior once it is developed.... and this is also a reason why people blame the dog as have been "abused" in the past. The dog may have come to them with tiny issues, but it is up to the owner to be a good owner, and recognize and work to diminish these tiny issues... but instead, more often than not these tiny issues are NOT dealt with and develop into something more severe very quickly. I am not working to counter what they are saying and say it is false, in regards to their dog actually being abused (as so many different little things can change a dog's behavior-- without the average person even noticing), but I am stating the fact that there are different reasons for dogs (especially shelter dogs) to be timid, shy, fearful, etc.... 1. because they might have experienced abuse or trauma in their past, 2. because if they had, most people can not recognize it quickly enough for change prior to behavior escalation, and/or 3. that people are usually the NUMBER ONE case of bad dog behavior (causing the issues, making them worse, ignoring/allowing them, etc.).

Sorry, I did not mean to get so off-topic from the thread.


----------



## ALDABRAMAN

I always thought the list was based on bite claims!


----------



## APBT_Fanatic

ALDABRAMAN said:


> I always thought the list was based on bite claims!



Nope, just ignorance......


----------



## ALDABRAMAN

Tom said:


> I have a bumper sticker. It reads: "Ban ignorance, not breeds."
> 
> Angi what happened to you is terrible but government regulation and fees are not the solution.
> 
> No its not strange that it didn't bark. Dogs bark to warn you. Its like a rattle snake. It does not WANT to bite or fight with you, so it tries to warn you away. Barking dogs are chicken sh**. An experienced decoy can make them tun tail and run in a split second while empty handed. The silent ones are the ones to worry about. They don't want to avoid a fight or warn you, they want to "get" you.
> 
> I've seen some crazy stuff with dobies and GSDs in the last 19 years that I've been a professional trainer specializing in aggression. Crazy stuff I tell you.
> 
> Talk to any vet tech and they will tell you the worst dogs to see at the vet hospital are labs and golden retrievers. Chows are pretty bad too. Pit bulls, or any of the variations called a "pit bull" are one of their favorite dogs to work on. You can poke and prod them with needles all day and they reward you with kisses. There are exceptions to all of these generalities.
> 
> I hate these "ban" lists from insurance companies. It creates a lot of injustice.


Mine does not bark, unless on command!


----------



## Fernando

I did a little online searching to get a little explanation re: dog breed lists

This is from "Insurance Yak"

Dog Liability and Homeowners Insurance
Insurance companies have paid particular interest to dogs in recent years and have worked at field underwriting all Homeowners and Renterâ€™s policies for dog exposures. Their main focus is to eliminate exposure to severe losses. In 2002, dog-bite claims cost insurers almost $350 million, and accounted for a full fourth (1/4) of all liability claims. The potential exposure is significant, so underwriters, looking to earn their keep, have come up with ways to reduce their exposure.

At a typical insurance company, information on all large losses where money has not been subrogated, is gathered and periodically reviewed. Usually a committee of senior underwriters reviews what happened and then try to determine if the event was a truly unforeseen occurrence or was the loss something that they could have avoided by changing or enforcing current underwriting guidelines. From this work they have produced the policies that apply to dogs...

Since a significant percentage of the population owns dogs, insurance companies have choices to make on how to cover dogs. Some of their options:

1. Exclude dogs from coverage. With this option they risk alienating dog owners who donâ€™t have aggressive animals and take their chances that a sharp penciled plaintiff attorney wonâ€™t pick the exclusion apart in court.
2. Price policies taking all breeds types into account. Look at all dog bite cases and charge everyone enough to pay for the large losses. The insurance companies that choose this are at a disadvantage for two reasons: (1) they will be priced higher than their competition that restricts dogs and (2) people with dangerous dogs will seek coverage growing their risk exposure, not spreading it out (called adverse selection in insurance terms).
3. Write an endorsement and charge dog owners more money for dog coverage. Again, youâ€™ll get adverse selection with dangerous breeds flocking to you. Youâ€™ll also alienate owners of less aggressive dogs who can go elsewhere for less money.
4. Identify which dogs account for the majority of bites. Then expand underwriting rules to eliminate these exposures by making them ineligible for coverage. No policy, no exposure. This option means less business and fewer premium dollars, but fewer large losses. It also does not alienate dog owners with less aggressive breeds......

Several states have tried to restrict an insurerâ€™s ability to underwrite dog exposures by trying to outlaw breed discrimination. With opposition from insurance company lobbyists these bills have gone nowhere.

*A challenge in underwriting dog exposures is that ANY dog, regardless of breed, has the capability to cause severe injury to others. Just like people, animal behavior can be a product of their environment. In addition, much depends on the lineage, how the dog was bred and how they have been treated or trained. The presence of other dogs on the premises can also have an impact on their demeanor.

Insurers will never stop underwriting dogs when writing homeowner policies. Dogs are a liability hazard for insurance companies, and the risk associated with insuring their owners is too great to overlook. Addressing an unacceptable exposure after a loss occurs is too late. 

Take the time to identify your own exposure. By doing so, you help protect yourself and lessen the risk of lawsuits and insurance issues.*


full post HERE

I can't say that I agree with the whole article but there is truth to Insurance Underwriting and what an Insurance company must do in order to avoid liability loss.


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## zoogrl

This is a HUGE topic that will get me on my soap box and break it! I think any dog can be dangerous in the "right" hands & it's not the dog's fault or the breed it is. It's like saying all blondes are idiots. Completely inaccurate. I think it would be much better if, with insurance, they had a special policy or deposit or exclusion for all dogs, not just certain breeds. Those of us that are responsible pet owners are the ones suffering because the insurance companies need to protect themselves from the naive & stupid pet owners. I had a doberman for 8 years, raised him from a puppy, did obedience class, daycare, he had his canine good citizens title & that dog was the best dog on the entire planet! But it wasn't his breed that made him that way, it was all of the hard work we did together that made him so great. I wish that would get thru to the insurance companies. I'm gonna stop there 


Oh and to fix the misspelling in earlier posts - Chihuahua, that's how you spell it


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## dmmj

of course not all blonds are idiots, we all know only natural blonds fall into that category. 

One thing I hate is if a child trespasses on my property and say uses my trampoline I am on the hook for it. Attractive nuisance my buttocks (edited for family forum)


----------



## Marty333

dmmj said:


> of course not all blonds are idiots, we all know only natural blonds fall into that category.
> 
> One thing I hate is if a child trespasses on my property and say uses my trampoline I am on the hook for it. Attractive nuisance my buttocks (edited for family forum)





Hey! Im a natural blonde


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## Fernando

The list was just revised for one of our carriers

â€¢	Akita 
â€¢	Bull Terrier 
â€¢	Caucasian Mountain Dog
â€¢	Caucasian Owcharka 
â€¢	Caucasian Sheepdog
â€¢	Caucasian Shepherd 
â€¢	Ovtcharka (Caucasian or Central Asian) 
â€¢	Dingo
â€¢	Doberman Pinscher
â€¢	Giant Schnauzer
â€¢	Mastiff
â€¢	Neapolitan Mastiff
â€¢	Presa Canario
â€¢	Sage Ghafghazi
â€¢	Wolf
â€¢	Wolf Hybrid


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## dmmj

dingo wolf and wolf hybrid are the only ones I agree with, because I believe they are considered wild.


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## Fernando

8 of those dogs i've never even heard of


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## APBT_Fanatic

Wow. I would love to hear the reasoning behind each individual breed.-- Not just a plain answer to cover all the breeds, "They are considered to be dangerous".

That's pathetic.


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## dmmj

I have a question do people in amercia seeking insurance actually own dingos? or is this a world wide type of list.


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## pdrobber

Happy and surprised that pitbulls are freed from the list. Unhappy to see akita, bull terrier, doberman pinscher, schnauzer and mastiff...never heard of the others...dingo and wolf and other wild ones understandable


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## Fernando

I'm assuming that they are referring to California'ns or Americans only becaue this is an admitted carrier.


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## SnakeyeZ

I think what we really need is an unacceptable people breeding list...


----------



## Robert

This makes me want a dingo wolf hybrid


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## Fernando

SnakeyeZ said:


> I think what we really need is an unacceptable people breeding list...




yeah there are some people that should not breed.


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## Kristina

pdrobber said:


> Happy and surprised that pitbulls are freed from the list. Unhappy to see akita, bull terrier, doberman pinscher, schnauzer and mastiff...never heard of the others...dingo and wolf and other wild ones understandable



"Bull terrier" means Pitbull. It is a general term designed to encompass all the bull terriers, inclunding Staffordshire terriers, American Pitbull terriers, English Bull terrier... etc. 

So no, Pitbulls have NOT been freed from the list.


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## HLogic

fmadrigal said:


> RE: Unacceptable dog breed list
> 
> The list was just revised for one of our carriers
> 
> â€¢ Akita
> â€¢ Bull Terrier
> â€¢ Caucasian Mountain Dog
> â€¢ Caucasian Owcharka
> â€¢ Caucasian Sheepdog
> â€¢ Caucasian Shepherd
> â€¢ Ovtcharka (Caucasian or Central Asian)
> â€¢ Dingo
> â€¢ Doberman Pinscher
> â€¢ Giant Schnauzer
> â€¢ Mastiff
> â€¢ Neapolitan Mastiff
> â€¢ Presa Canario
> â€¢ Sage Ghafghazi
> â€¢ Wolf
> â€¢ Wolf Hybrid
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 1.0.1 - African Sulcata
> ___________________



Dang! They added 1.0.1 - African Sulcata to the list?!?!?


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## Fernando

HLogic said:


> fmadrigal said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE: Unacceptable dog breed list
> 
> The list was just revised for one of our carriers
> 
> â€¢ Akita
> â€¢ Bull Terrier
> â€¢ Caucasian Mountain Dog
> â€¢ Caucasian Owcharka
> â€¢ Caucasian Sheepdog
> â€¢ Caucasian Shepherd
> â€¢ Ovtcharka (Caucasian or Central Asian)
> â€¢ Dingo
> â€¢ Doberman Pinscher
> â€¢ Giant Schnauzer
> â€¢ Mastiff
> â€¢ Neapolitan Mastiff
> â€¢ Presa Canario
> â€¢ Sage Ghafghazi
> â€¢ Wolf
> â€¢ Wolf Hybrid
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 1.0.1 - African Sulcata
> ___________________
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dang! They added 1.0.1 - African Sulcata to the list?!?!?
Click to expand...



Haven't you ever heard of a Sulcata chasing down a mail man?


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## Robert

I believe there is a dog called a Carolina Dog or American Dingo. I wonder if that's what they are referring to.


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## pdrobber

kyryah said:


> pdrobber said:
> 
> 
> 
> Happy and surprised that pitbulls are freed from the list. Unhappy to see akita, bull terrier, doberman pinscher, schnauzer and mastiff...never heard of the others...dingo and wolf and other wild ones understandable
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Bull terrier" means Pitbull. It is a general term designed to encompass all the bull terriers, inclunding Staffordshire terriers, American Pitbull terriers, English Bull terrier... etc.
> 
> So no, Pitbulls have NOT been freed from the list.
Click to expand...


Oh mannnn, I thought they meant only the Target dog bull terrier. BOO!!!


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## dmarcus

If the mail man comes in my back yard, my Sulcata might chase him down, lol that is way to funny...


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## pdrobber

kyryah said:


> pdrobber said:
> 
> 
> 
> Happy and surprised that pitbulls are freed from the list. Unhappy to see akita, bull terrier, doberman pinscher, schnauzer and mastiff...never heard of the others...dingo and wolf and other wild ones understandable
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Bull terrier" means Pitbull. It is a general term designed to encompass all the bull terriers, inclunding Staffordshire terriers, American Pitbull terriers, English Bull terrier... etc.
> 
> So no, Pitbulls have NOT been freed from the list.
Click to expand...


Oh mann, I thought they were just talking about the Target dog bull terrier type.


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## pdrobber

@Kristina, oh I thought they were bringing it down to only the bull terrier (Target dog)


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## Kristina

I am pretty sure they left it open like that on purpose so it could be a blanket term for ALL bull terriers.


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## Fernando

Actually, you guys are technically both right. I did a little research and this list is just in addition to the current list for carrier.


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## The Speedmister

Hi,

Maybe add South African Boerboel, Cane Corso, Dogo Argentino, Neopolitan Mastiff, Broholmer, Ca de Bou, Fila Brasiliero, Alano Espanol, Tosa Inu, Dogue de Bordeaux, Spanish Mastiff, Tibetan Mastiff, Rhodesian Ridgeback

Some of these dogs are quite unusual, but I thought I would add them in. I like to know my fears - badly behaved Molosser Mastiff breeds being ones!
(I don't mean to offend. I am sure, when correctly trained, these dogs can make great pets).


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## Fernando

wow I have never heard of some of those dog breeds. 

One of my dream dogs is a cane corso


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## SILVERSTAR

i know nice pitbulls and i know labradors that would maul a child,i dont think a dog should nessesarily be judged by its breed maybe taken into consideration but not judged,ive owned pitbulls nice and mean and ive been prejudged everywhere i lived or moved,i currently have no dogs since moving to california,and this reason i jus explained is why i choose not to own a pitt or rottweiller.BUT MOST OF ALL PITTS ARE JUDGED WITH GOOD REASON ALOTTA PEOPLE MISSUSE THESE GUYS.sorry if i got alittle of subject,i jus dont agree how dogs are judged.


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## Yvonne G

I want a doberman pup so bad I can taste it, but I just bought my visiting grand daughter an IPad, so I have to put the puppy on the back burner.


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## DixieParadise

The problem with this list is that I didn't see, American Straffordshire...aka Pit Bull.

I own a 14 yr old Bull Terrier. You know Spuds, Erin the Target dog. I have a picture of my Great Niece riding on her when the niece was 3 months old. 

I am including a picture of what happens when you leave a two year old around a member of the unacceptable breed list.....don't look if you have a weak stomach....it will just amaze you.


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## dmmj

emysemys said:


> I want a doberman pup so bad I can taste it, but I just bought my visiting grand daughter an IPad, so I have to put the puppy on the back burner.


So tell me how does doberman taste?


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## DeanS

Well...the dingo and wolf are listed...but where's the coyote and African wild dog? I know several people who have one or the other...


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## Yvonne G

dmmj said:


> emysemys said:
> 
> 
> 
> I want a doberman pup so bad I can taste it, but I just bought my visiting grand daughter an IPad, so I have to put the puppy on the back burner.
> 
> 
> 
> So tell me how does doberman taste?
Click to expand...


Its the "wanting" that has a flavor, not the dog. And THAT tastes like glue.


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## Fernando

DixieParadise said:


> The problem with this list is that I didn't see, American Straffordshire...aka Pit Bull.
> 
> I own a 14 yr old Bull Terrier. You know Spuds, Erin the Target dog. I have a picture of my Great Niece riding on her when the niece was 3 months old.
> 
> I am including a picture of what happens when you leave a two year old around a member of the unacceptable breed list.....don't look if you have a weak stomach....it will just amaze you.



The pitbull is on most if not all our lists. 



DeanS said:


> Well...the dingo and wolf are listed...but where's the coyote and African wild dog? I know several people who have one or the other...



I've never ran into any of those while insuring someone and I've been doing this for 6 years now. 

I'm sure they are out there...they just stay low key I'm sure.


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## SILVERSTAR

that kid coloring on the pit bull is great and as long as there raised rite they will treat a child like family and take alotta punishment from kids befoire resulting to violence alot more than some dogs....


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## Zouave

i never understand why retrievers aren't on these lists. They are responsible for the most injuries to humans.


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## Fernando

Zouave said:


> i never understand why retrievers aren't on these lists. They are responsible for the most injuries to humans.



That's what I've been told.

Golden retrievers are always shown as lovable family dogs in the media and Hollywood.


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## Zouave

FernandoM said:


> Zouave said:
> 
> 
> 
> i never understand why retrievers aren't on these lists. They are responsible for the most injuries to humans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I've been told.
> 
> Golden retrievers are always shown as lovable family dogs in the media and Hollywood.
Click to expand...


Blondes have more fun i guess?


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## kendallllmcd

DEFINATELY PIT BULLS AND ROTTS AND ANY BULLLY BREED I WORK AT A VETS OFFICE AND THOSE ARE THE DEF MORE SCARY AND DANGEROUS 
LIKE SAID BEFORE, CHIHUAHUAS PROBABLY HAVE A BIGGER PRECENTAGE OF BEING NASTY BUT THE OTHERS CAUSE ALOT MORE DAMAGE

I WOULDNT SAY AKITA OR HUSKY THOUGH, I CANNOT RECALL ONE OF THOSE BREEDS IN MY PRACTICE THAT HAD A BAD ATTITUDE BUT YOU ALSO NEVER KNOWW WITH DOGGIES


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## dmmj

kendallllmcd said:


> DEFINATELY PIT BULLS AND ROTTS AND ANY BULLLY BREED I WORK AT A VETS OFFICE AND THOSE ARE THE DEF MORE SCARY AND DANGEROUS
> LIKE SAID BEFORE, CHIHUAHUAS PROBABLY HAVE A BIGGER PRECENTAGE OF BEING NASTY BUT THE OTHERS CAUSE ALOT MORE DAMAGE
> 
> I WOULDNT SAY AKITA OR HUSKY THOUGH, I CANNOT RECALL ONE OF THOSE BREEDS IN MY PRACTICE THAT HAD A BAD ATTITUDE BUT YOU ALSO NEVER KNOWW WITH DOGGIES


I am just throwing thois out there, but maybe since a pit bull bite is bigger and more serious that is why you see more of them than say a chi chi's bite since they would be smaller and more treatable, like I said I have been snapped at by more chi chi's than i have pit bulls in my years here on this planet.


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## Zouave

AN Akita decided to taste my arm once. :| nearly pooped myself!


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## APBT_Fanatic

kendallllmcd said:


> DEFINATELY PIT BULLS AND ROTTS AND ANY BULLLY BREED I WORK AT A VETS OFFICE AND THOSE ARE THE DEF MORE SCARY AND DANGEROUS
> LIKE SAID BEFORE, CHIHUAHUAS PROBABLY HAVE A BIGGER PRECENTAGE OF BEING NASTY BUT THE OTHERS CAUSE ALOT MORE DAMAGE
> 
> I WOULDNT SAY AKITA OR HUSKY THOUGH, I CANNOT RECALL ONE OF THOSE BREEDS IN MY PRACTICE THAT HAD A BAD ATTITUDE BUT YOU ALSO NEVER KNOWW WITH DOGGIES



I would hate to go to a vet that had predetermined how my Pit Bull "might act".-- In fact, if I noticed this was the case, it would be the last time I did business there. Not once have any of my Pitties (personal or rescue) needed a muzzle at the vet, let alone growled or snapped. On the other hand, we had a 5 pound Chihuahua who needed to be muzzled and acted like she would rip the vet's head off.... growling, snapping, lunging, etc.

I guess if you feed into the ignorance, one would go to work with that in their head and have the tendency to already be afraid of the dog, regardless of it's temperament or socialization aspects.

Regardless of the breed, people tend to be more afraid of larger dogs than smaller dogs, as they fall into the misconception that smaller dogs can't do that much harm.


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## Tom

kendallllmcd said:


> DEFINATELY PIT BULLS AND ROTTS AND ANY BULLLY BREED I WORK AT A VETS OFFICE AND THOSE ARE THE DEF MORE SCARY AND DANGEROUS
> LIKE SAID BEFORE, CHIHUAHUAS PROBABLY HAVE A BIGGER PRECENTAGE OF BEING NASTY BUT THE OTHERS CAUSE ALOT MORE DAMAGE
> 
> I WOULDNT SAY AKITA OR HUSKY THOUGH, I CANNOT RECALL ONE OF THOSE BREEDS IN MY PRACTICE THAT HAD A BAD ATTITUDE BUT YOU ALSO NEVER KNOWW WITH DOGGIES


 My wife was a vet tech for 13 years, and she is still in the veterinary field as a consultant. (Much higher pay than a tech ) She and every tech that she worked with had no fear of the bully breeds as they knew that no matter what you did to them, they would seldom bite, but as soon as a retriever or lab walked through the door, they all knew to exercise caution as these would almost always try to bite when handled by strangers. I'm not saying that ALL pit bulls are angels, they aren't. I've dealt with several bad ones in my career. The bad ones are very few and far between though. By comparison, I've dealt with a whole lotta aggressive goldens. I see lots of ill tempered labs too, but most lab owners seem to just accept it or make excuses for it.

If I were making these lists, as a real world professional who actually deals with all of these breeds on a daily basis, pit bull would not even be in the running. There are dozens of breeds that should be on a "ban" list ahead of the pit bulls. I still say ban lists are ridiculous and serve as another example of the oncoming downfall of our society.


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## terryo

I have to agree with Tom and APBT....When people come to my house, I try to keep my chi's in my bedroom if it's people that they aren't familiar with. Also when people are about to leave, I have to pick one of them up as she will try and nip their ankle. My Bully would stand by the steps if someone was coming in and if we told him it was OK...that was it. It was like he understood what we said. Of all my dogs, he was the sweetest and best I ever had. He made us laugh all the time. Yet, when we walked him, people would actually cross the street. 

"I would hate to go to a vet that had predetermined how my Pit Bull "might act".-- In fact, if I noticed this was the case, it would be the last time I did business there."
I totally agree with this.


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## wrmitchell22

I think it is rediculous to ban breeds! Why not ban a certain religion or proffession, there must be statistics for who parties the most or gets more arrests. I agree ban the deed not the breed. Why not just make dog owners with those breeds prove the dag has had obedience training and been evaluated by a trainer to be non-aggressive or obedient?? That would encourage good ownership and not punish good dog owners.


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## Fernando

wrmitchell22 said:


> I think it is rediculous to ban breeds! Why not ban a certain religion or proffession, there must be statistics for who parties the most or gets more arrests. I agree ban the deed not the breed. Why not just make dog owners with those breeds prove the dag has had obedience training and been evaluated by a trainer to be non-aggressive or obedient?? That would encourage good ownership and not punish good dog owners.



That would be a great idea, however, the Insurance company would then get complaints about how the insured has to pay additional costs to put their dogs through the training and how they feel it's not necessary and the insurance company should just take their word for it. Trust me, I've heard it all! haha. 

What we try to do here at the insurance AGENCY, is if the client says he has one of the dogs from the list, that he/she EXCLUDE the coverage for the animal and sign a liability exclusion form relieving the company from any future liability loss from any animal he or she may posses on or off the property. 

This usually works except that sometimes the insured will say "Well what IF my dog does something that I have no control over" ...yeah I've heard that one too. We then have to tell that person that we don't have a market for them


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## Tortoise

Yes had dogs all my life and 2 of my kids got bitten for the first time last year visiting a friend with a chiuahua(spell error sorry) , nasty little thing.It got us as we were leaving her house after a visit-drew blood too.

She jokes _lucky it wasn't any bigger_
I didn't think it was very funny actually.

And I am sure there are very nice versions of this breed out there but I have not met one yet.

I have a husky-wouldn't hurt anyone and Great pyrenees, great dogs. Terrier mix is probably my best people guard!


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## Lilithlee

Fernando said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> Most of you probably don't know this but I'm an Insurance agent for a major insurance carrier here in California and we have an "unacceptable dog breed list" or black list that we have to follow in order for us to insure prospective clients.
> 
> Here is is:
> 
> Akita
> Chow Chow
> Doberman Pinscher
> Huskey (Eskimo dog)
> Presa Canario
> Rottweiler
> Staffordshire Terrier (Pit bull)
> Staffordshire bull terrier
> Wolf hybrid
> Bull Terrier (including miniature)
> German shepherd
> 
> *some of our carriers will exclude a bull mastiff*
> 
> *Would you agree with this list? Have you had personal experience or have heard of stories about a specific breed? Would there be a breed that you would include in this list?*
> 
> I'd love to know your thoughts on this...



You know what sad, some of these dogs are great breeds. I would say all but I haven't know some of breeds. 
My Dad once told me one of the best Dad he ever owned was a Huskey. 

A Rottweiler save my young sister from being hit from a speeding cop car. 

I've never had any problems with a chow. 

I'm kinda surprised to see AKita on the list. Never seen/meet a mean Akita, a hyper one yeah! 

I don't think any dog should be on a list. Humans however, there should be a list for them.


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