# Is this normal for a baby sulcata???



## Stephanie Kalahurka (Aug 6, 2015)

My little guy sleeps like this all the time? It doesn't look comfortable. Is it a normal?


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## Merrick (Aug 7, 2015)

It is fine he is just heating up. What are your Temps?


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## SarahChelonoidis (Aug 7, 2015)

Somewhat off-topic, but what time of day was this photo taken at? Is he basking under a red light during the day or is he posed like that at night? Does it really look that red in the enclosure or is the photo funny?


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## russian/sulcata/tortoise (Aug 7, 2015)

Does he have access to water? Is he kept humid?


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## Stephanie Kalahurka (Aug 7, 2015)

Thanks for the responses. All advice is welcome. I'm new at this and somewhat unsure of myself. We purchased this baby tortoise from a breeder at a local reptile about three weeks ago. The breeder told us that "baby sulcatas are hearty and easy to care for." After getting him home and doing my diligence, however, I'm thinking they are not as hearty as he implied and may require a great deal more care and attention. Someone had a post on "hatching failure syndrome" that was quite alarming! Given that we have taken responsibility for this little guy, I want to make sure he grows strong and healthy. I'm learning . . . . 

To answer your questions:

The photo above was taken at night under the heat lamp that I purchased for his enclosure. It is a Zoomed nocturnal infrared incandescent heat lamp that I purchased after reading here that these little guys should not have night temps below 75. He had been dropping to about 71-72 at night. Now, with the lamp, his enclosure stays around 80. His daytime temps range from 78 to 98, with 98 being under his daytime basking lamp. I have also been attempting to increase the humidity in his enclosure. With some advice from "Tom" on this forum, I have been able modify the enclosure to get the humidity up to a constant 65-70 percent, frequently misting (which temporarily raises humidity up to around 80-85%). He also has a "humid hide" which is a curved log that I soak every morning and set with one side against the wall of his enclosure -- the other side open. There is condensation on the glass under the log all day, so I feel like it is pretty humid in there. 

He has access to a shallow water dish. I soak him in warm water each morning for about 15 minutes (which he seems to really enjoy). I've seen him both walking in (and sometimes just sitting in) his water dish.

The neck stretching thing was a little strange though and I didn't see him do it before just a couple of days ago. I wondered if it was normal? 

Any advice/reassurance/improvement recommendations on the above set-up are welcome.


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## Merrick (Aug 7, 2015)

Stephanie Kalahurka said:


> Thanks for the responses. All advice is welcome. I'm new at this and somewhat unsure of myself. We purchased this baby tortoise from a breeder at a local reptile about three weeks ago. The breeder told us that "baby sulcatas are hearty and easy to care for." After getting him home and doing my diligence, however, I'm thinking they are not as hearty as he implied and may require a great deal more care and attention. Someone had a post on "hatching failure syndrome" that was quite alarming! Given that we have taken responsibility for this little guy, I want to make sure he grows strong and healthy. I'm learning . . . .
> 
> To answer your questions:
> 
> ...


Letting it drop to 70 is fine just nothing lower than 60. So no need for the night heat lamp
The red lamp sometimes bother tortoises eyes if you really want to keep the tempature up you could use a jet mat attaches to the side of the enclosure. Also are you using a glass tank for housing


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## SarahChelonoidis (Aug 7, 2015)

You might want to look into replacing your red night time heat bulb with a ceramic heat emitter (CHE) -a heat source that doesn't emit visible light. They see the colour red, just like we do, so leaving it lit up at night might be causing some behavioural confusion for your little guy. To me, that looks more like basking than night-time sleeping, but the sulcata keepers here would know best.


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## Stephanie Kalahurka (Aug 7, 2015)

We are using a 40-gallon glass tank for now. I understand that will need to change, but it's going to take some time and planning. Trying to do the best with what we have for how. 

What are jet mat attaches? Google was not very helpful . . .


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## Stephanie Kalahurka (Aug 7, 2015)

ceramic heat emitter (CHE) -- I will check into that. I thought the red light was a little odd - I know that I would not want to sleep under a light like that. 

He been doing the neck stretching thing in the day time too. There is plenty of non-neck stretching time (eating, walking, making little burrows, etc.), but this is definitely one of his favored poses.


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## Angel Carrion (Aug 7, 2015)

Stephanie Kalahurka said:


> ceramic heat emitter (CHE) -- I will check into that. I thought the red light was a little odd - I know that I would not want to sleep under a light like that.
> 
> He been doing the neck stretching thing in the day time too. There is plenty of non-neck stretching time (eating, walking, making little burrows, etc.), but this is definitely one of his favored poses.
> View attachment 142466


I'm not sure if that is normal behavior or if it's even healthy behavior. But I think it's kind of cute. Hopefully it's nothing to worry about.
When he does this neck stretching thing, does he open his mouth wide like he's yawning?


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## SarahChelonoidis (Aug 7, 2015)

Merrick said:


> Letting it drop to 70 is fine just nothing lower than 60. So no need for the night heat lamp



I'm not sure this advice is appropriate for a hatchling sulcata. I don't raise sulcata, but I think standard care would suggest to not let these babies get below 80F at night.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/african-spurred-tortoise-sulcata-care-sheet.52524/


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## Merrick (Aug 7, 2015)

Stephanie Kalahurka said:


> We are using a 40-gallon glass tank for now. I understand that will need to change, but it's going to take some time and planning. Trying to do the best with what we have for how.
> 
> What are jet mat attaches? Google was not very helpful . . .


a rubbermaid container is cheaper and better to use one that is the same size


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## Stephanie Kalahurka (Aug 7, 2015)

Merrick said:


> a rubbermaid container is cheaper and better to use one that is the same size



Lol. I know! (Now) I wish we had known that before we dropped $250 on a 40-gallon aquarium (again, based upon the breeder's advice).


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## Angel Carrion (Aug 7, 2015)

Stephanie Kalahurka said:


> Lol. I know! (Now) I wish we had known that before we dropped $250 on a 40-gallon aquarium (again, based upon the breeder's advice).


Maybe you can return the tank?


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## Stephanie Kalahurka (Aug 7, 2015)

SarahChelonoidis said:


> I'm not sure this advice is appropriate for a hatchling sulcata. I don't raise sulcata, but I think standard care would suggest to not let these babies get below 80F at night.
> 
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/african-spurred-tortoise-sulcata-care-sheet.52524/




Yes, these were the articles I read that prompted me to get the heat lamp. He seems to like the warmth, so I think I will keep the heat while he is tiny. I'll trade out for the ceramic heater though -- the red light is kind of creepy.

I have to say, figuring out the baby tortoise is a little like it was bringing home my first child. I would read something that said that you must swaddle. Then something else would say that swaddling was bad. Same thing on baby swings, type of bottle, whether to supplement, whether to co-sleep, cloth v. disposable diapers, on and on. It takes some sorting. Still, I'm grateful to have found such a depth of informational resources!!


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## Stephanie Kalahurka (Aug 7, 2015)

Angel Carrion said:


> Maybe you can return the tank?


Sigh -- not likely. It came from PetSmart and we've had a tortoise living in it for the last three weeks. 
Possibly Craig's List though for a partial recovery. Something we will definitely consider.


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## Tom (Aug 7, 2015)

Merrick said:


> Letting it drop to 70 is fine just nothing lower than 60.



I completely disagree. 70 at night in a damp enclosure is asking for a RI.

I recommend no lower than 80 for a night temp.


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## Merrick (Aug 7, 2015)

Tom said:


> I completely disagree. 70 at night in a damp enclosure is asking for a RI.
> 
> I recommend no lower than 80 for a night temp.


I have seen young sulcatas housed outside in the humid south florida environment where it can get to the low 70's with no RI. But then again that kind of environment is different than a much smaller glass tank that has been modified to suit the needs of a young sulcata. Their are a lot more variables outside


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## Stephanie Kalahurka (Aug 7, 2015)

Angel Carrion said:


> I'm not sure if that is normal behavior or if it's even healthy behavior. But I think it's kind of cute. Hopefully it's nothing to worry about.
> When he does this neck stretching thing, does he open his mouth wide like he's yawning?



No mouth opening. Just neck stretching like in the photo.


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## Tom (Aug 7, 2015)

The neck stretching and sleeping under the hot bulb are both indicators that a respiratory infection may already be underway. This is likely because of the low temps your guy was hitting at night when you first got him.

When you get your CHE, also get a thermostat. This will keep your ambient where you want it day and night, and prevent the enclosure from overheating during warm times. The thermostat will make it easy to hold whatever temp you like.

Because you are seeing these symptoms, and because of the history of this one, I would raise ambient to 85-90 day and night for about two weeks after the symptoms stop. I would not go to a vet and let them injects harsh medicines into your baby at this point. You can reverse this if you catch it early like this. Higher temps and more electric heat also means more dryness. Make sure you are doing soaks at least once and possibly twice a day in a case like this. Keep the soak water warm and try to increase humidity in the enclosure durin this time of elevated temps.

Have you read the sulcata care sheet? All of the correct housing info is in there. I can't link it from here...


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## Stephanie Kalahurka (Aug 7, 2015)

Tom,

Thanks for the advice and heads up. I will do as you say on the temps/thermostat. I do have your care sheet. We are implementing to the extent possible.

Steph


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## Tom (Aug 7, 2015)

Merrick said:


> I have seen young sulcatas housed outside in the humid south florida environment where it can get to the low 70's with no RI. But then again that kind of environment is different than a much smaller glass tank that has been modified to suit the needs of a young sulcata. Their are a lot more variables outside



A couple of things:
"Young" is different than a new hatchling under the stress of moving and being in a new environment.

What they are capable of surviving at their lowest limits, is not necessarily what we should be recommending people strive for. I propose we shoot for "optimal".


Just offering food for thought...


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## Angel Carrion (Aug 7, 2015)

Stephanie Kalahurka said:


> Sigh -- not likely. It came from PetSmart and we've had a tortoise living in it for the last three weeks.
> Possibly Craig's List though for a partial recovery. Something we will definitely consider.


Ugh that sucks. But maybe you can? Still within 30 day limit for returns. Just tell them you do not find it acceptable and would like to return it. It's worked for me a bunch of times when I bought something there or at Petco and later realized it was the wrong thing or I found something better. The Petco and petsmart by me both know me well enough that I don't even need to bring in a receipt anymore. We talk, we laugh, I help some customers, supply information, buy a couple things, go home. So when I come in needing to return something that I've obviously used, they have no issue with it.


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## Stephanie Kalahurka (Aug 7, 2015)

And tonight he is sleeping like this (headed for the ceramic heat bulb in the morning so still creepy red light tonight). I'm beginning to think I just have an eccentric baby. That can't be comfortable??


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## Angel Carrion (Aug 7, 2015)

....Interesting....


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## Stephanie Kalahurka (Aug 19, 2015)

Tom said:


> The neck stretching and sleeping under the hot bulb are both indicators that a respiratory infection may already be underway. This is likely because of the low temps your guy was hitting at night when you first got him.



Update. So @Tom was correct. Mr. Tyrion's breathing got worse and he started blowing bubbles from his nose. I searched this forum for a tortoise vet in my state and it turns out that the recommended Vet in Kansas/Missouri is less than two miles from my house. Then I clicked on the link to his practice website and here is his photo:

http://www.kcvetcare.com/clinic/brock-w-exline-dvm

I took the fact that he was holding a giant sulcata tortoise in the photo to be a VERY good sign (turns out it is his family pet). So Tyrion and I made an appointment. The good news is that this practice has THREE reptile specialists -- experienced help always nearby. The bad news is that my little guy had a respiratory infection. He's now had three of five doses of antibiotics and seems to be doing MUCH better.

I got rid of the red light and have installed the CHE and the thermostat. I've managed to maintain the humidity in his enclosure at a fairly high level. I have a few bags of some cypress bark and moss (the RIGHT kind now) and some coco coir. Tyrion is now spending his days eating and exploring. Each night, he makes himself a little nest and burrows in. Each morning, he relaxes in his warm soak, usually to the point that he takes a giant poop. I think I have a happy, healthy tortoise. Thanks so much for all of the advice.

P.S. I spent an hour today watching a YouTube video entitled "The End of Pyramiding" instead of billing clients. Our baby may turn out to be expensive in more ways than one . . . . .


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## Angel Carrion (Aug 19, 2015)

Stephanie Kalahurka said:


> Update. So @Tom was correct. Mr. Tyrion's breathing got worse and he started blowing bubbles from his nose. I searched this forum for a tortoise vet in my state and it turns out that the recommended Vet in Kansas/Missouri is less than two miles from my house. Then I clicked on the link to his practice website and here is his photo:
> 
> http://www.kcvetcare.com/clinic/brock-w-exline-dvm
> 
> ...


I'm so very glad to hear that you found a good vet so close! Most are lucky if one is an hour away.

Sounds like you are on the road to having a beautiful wonderful happy healthy tortie!!


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 19, 2015)

Thanks for the update.
Sorry Tyrion got ill.
But very happy about the later news.
Good, good.


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