# EJ and pyramiding



## Madkins007 (Nov 26, 2009)

In the thread http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-10585-page-2.html, GBTortoises said, in part:

"Lack of proper humidity is likely a major cause of pyramiding but not the only cause. A combination of other contributing factors may also be: diet (too rich in vitamins), excessive use of vitamin supplements, excessive heat, an area too small for proper activity and exercise based on the size and number of animals in a given area. "

To which EJ replied, in part: 

"Hey... don't take this personal... but when I read this my first thoughts were... BS... BS... BS. There is absolutely no evidence to support any of this opinion. I highly suspect that this is not your opinion.

Yes... nutrition does play a good part but to single out what part of nutrition is impossible.

The size of the enclosure is definately not a major factor. 

I can't help but think this is a cut and paste from an 'organization' we all know and love."

Now... I have to admit that I often find EJ's answers a bit vague- I sometimes have difficulty figuring out what his usually very brief comments refer to. 

In this case, I am unsure what EJ thinks does and does not cause pyramiding- other than size not being a factor, so I started this thread primarily to get EJ's take on this hot topic. 

Please understand, EJ, that I have no intention of this being any form of confrontation- I am just wondering what a well-experienced keeper thinks.


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## reptylefreek (Nov 26, 2009)

Yes after the last thread that Yvonne stopped I was also VERY interested in how EJ takes care of his torts. Especially the vitamin D3 part. Dont know if you mind sharing your secrets...lol. I am interested in getting a redfoot and wanted to hear how someone would attempt to supplement with D3 if needed.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 26, 2009)

Oh boy! A thread especially for Ed!! I'm glad you started this thread because I understand that Ed has the experience, but sometimes his answers leave me with question marks over my head. Maybe we can get some clarification here.

I always thought that humidity, diet, heat, exercise, etc. all work together to grow a smooth tortoise, and are all important factors. Ed, are you saying that exercise (a too small habitat) isn't one of the causes?

Seems like Ed's been on the computer day and night for the past two days and now when he has two threads dedicated to him, he's gone!


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## Kayti (Nov 26, 2009)

Regardless of an overly small habitat's effect on pyramiding, are we in agreement that a too small habitat is psychologically cruel? 
I decided to create a larger habitat for my Russians because (I was advised and agreed with that) more space created 1) more opportunities for the tortoises to self regulate temperature and humidity, 
2) more space for the tortoises to exercise and 3) more space for visual barriers and enrichment.
(I'm sure there are other benefits I'm overlooking at the moment too.)

So given all of these reasons, I don't understand why anyone would advocate for anything smaller than the biggest enclosure you can provide, within reason. How could a small enclosure ever be a good thing?
I am grateful and my tortoises are grateful for the people who advised me (respectfully) that my enclosure was not adequate. Even if that is not what caused them to pyramid, it's not like it'll harm them to have more room!

I guess this is off topic a bit, but I think psychological health should be a consideration when dispensing care advice, even if my initial question was about pyramiding. 
However, I do believe that exercise has a relationship to pyramiding as well.


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## Maggie Cummings (Nov 27, 2009)

Just as an FYI...Yvonne didn't close that thread, I did. I closed it because it was supposed to be about pyramiding in a small Russian tortoise. A new keeper asked for help and the thread ended up being hijacked and turned into a debate about Ed and his husbandry, and me and my rudeness... While I understand this is also a social site, when a new keeper asks for help we need to give that keeper the advice he asked for not start in on Ed and his husbandry, or any other debate. 
So now Ed has his own thread and I am sure he will join in soon. Well done Madkins!


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## stells (Nov 27, 2009)

Come on Ed... i'm chomping at the bit here....


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## reptylefreek (Nov 28, 2009)

Maggie I'm talking about the "why do people breed sulcatas" debate. That didn't start about a russian that I knew of... and Yvonne was the last person to post saying that she had the last word. So unless your breaking into your sisters account , I thought she closed it


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## Redfoot NERD (Nov 28, 2009)

Not knowing much [ if any ] about the tortoises from the UK/Mediterranean 'region'.. I will never comment of those species.

And keeping in mind we do wonder what Ed considers "proper-husbandry" I also have to ask [ about his redfoots ] Mark!

I have seen pics of Ed's redfoots.. "Show us what your Mazuri munchin redfoots look like Ed"?

NERD


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## stells (Nov 28, 2009)

I do have to wonder when people say about "proper husbandry"... is there really such a thing?

Everybody does it differently in my eyes... and no two keepers can keep tortoises the same... 

Just because you don't agree with someones husbandry does that mean its not "proper husbandry"...

There are of course extremes when the animals aren't kept well and don't get everything they need... and the owner is lacking in the basics... but when someone is succeeding to keep multiple species... and grow them well... and get eggs... but does it differently to others that does not mean the husbandry isn't "proper"...


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## Madkins007 (Nov 28, 2009)

Dang- it sort of sounds like we are all waiting for EJ to show up and pounce on him. 

EJ- as the OP, I just really would like to know what your thoughts on pyramiding are and maybe some of the why. I don't care about photos or other care issues here, and I do not plan on this being an ambush or anything. Just sheer curiosity and a desire to learn.


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## stells (Nov 29, 2009)

My post was more directed at Terry than Ed...


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## TylerStewart (Nov 29, 2009)

stells said:


> I do have to wonder when people say about "proper husbandry"... is there really such a thing?
> 
> Everybody does it differently in my eyes... and no two keepers can keep tortoises the same...
> 
> ...



Good post! There are many definitions of "proper husbandry," and most people have enough class that they don't think their way is the only way. 

Love it or hate it, there's no shortage of great looking, perfectly smooth "Mazuri Munchin Redfoots (and other species for that matter)."


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## Candy (Nov 29, 2009)

I posted pictures of Dale not to long ago and a few of you commented on how smooth his shell is, but to tell you the truth all I do is feed him what he likes and give him humidity and I'm pretty sure it's not enough humidity, but I try. So I have to just be grateful I guess that he looks like that. I think as long as you try and you love what you're doing and your tortoise is happy and healthly that is all that really matters.


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## Redfoot NERD (Nov 29, 2009)

stells said:


> My post was more directed at Terry than Ed...



Why Kelly?


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## terryo (Nov 29, 2009)

Candy said:


> I posted pictures of Dale not to long ago and a few of you commented on how smooth his shell is, but to tell you the truth all I do is feed him what he likes and give him humidity and I'm pretty sure it's not enough humidity, but I try. So I have to just be grateful I guess that he looks like that. I think as long as you try and you love what you're doing and your tortoise is happy and healthly that is all that really matters.



Whatever you're doing, boy are you doing it right. Dale is beautiful.


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## stells (Nov 30, 2009)

Redfoot NERD said:


> stells said:
> 
> 
> > My post was more directed at Terry than Ed...
> ...



Because you bought up in this thread the "proper husbandry" comment... What is your definition of "proper husbandry"...


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## -EJ (Nov 30, 2009)

I lost my old computer to some malware while visiting my favorite pornsite... I gotta quit doing that...

Posted by reptylefreek - 11-26-2009 07:10 PM 
Yes after the last thread that Yvonne stopped I was also VERY interested in how EJ takes care of his torts. Especially the vitamin D3 part. Dont know if you mind sharing your secrets...lol. I am interested in getting a redfoot and wanted to hear how someone would attempt to supplement with D3 if needed. 

Ed's Reply
How I keep my tortoises is very well documented and out there. The two books I wrote and the many articles in reptiles is based on the care that I provide for my tortoises. Check out the numerous posts on Mazuri.

Posted by emysemys - 11-26-2009 09:14 PM 
I always thought that humidity, diet, heat, exercise, etc. all work together to grow a smooth tortoise, and are all important factors. Ed, are you saying that exercise (a too small habitat) isn't one of the causes? 

Ed's Reply
They are all factors but I believe that heat and hydration are the most important ones. I've seen tortoises raised on apparently horrid diets that look fantastic. The other components mentioned might be factors but I don't think they are overly important.

Posted by Kayti - 11-26-2009 09:48 PM 
Regardless of an overly small habitat's effect on pyramiding, are we in agreement that a too small habitat is psychologically cruel? 

So given all of these reasons, I don't understand why anyone would advocate for anything smaller than the biggest enclosure you can provide, within reason. How could a small enclosure ever be a good thing?

Ed's Reply
This would imply that tortoise is thinking 'woes me...' I don't think that's the case. The tortoise is not having any pain inflicted so long as it's needs are being met. You really can't say what a tortoise is thinking.

I actually covered this in one of my books. In the case of a hatchling... you're not going to place it in a 1acre plot even if you have it available.

How big are your enclosures for the animals you hibernate?

Posted by Redfoot NERD - 11-28-2009 09:48 AM 
Not knowing much [ if any ] about the tortoises from the UK/Mediterranean 'region'.. I will never comment of those species.

And keeping in mind we do wonder what Ed considers "proper-husbandry" I also have to ask [ about his redfoots ] Mark!

I have seen pics of Ed's redfoots.. "Show us what your Mazuri munchin redfoots look like Ed"?

Ed's Reply
I think I can say I have a fairly good idea of how folks keep their reptiles in the UK in both the north and the south having visited many collections over the years present and past. Add to this the years of corresponding and friendships that have come and gone.

There is a big difference between proper, acceptable and ideal. You can have proper acceptable and proper ideal. Terry... how are you keeping your tortoises right now? Would you consider that ideal or acceptable. Either are proper.

I think my Mazuri Munchin RFs look quite good.

Posted by Madkins007 - 11-28-2009 05:10 PM 
EJ- as the OP, I just really would like to know what your thoughts on pyramiding are and maybe some of the why. 

Ed's reply
A few other keepers believe that it is as simple as that very fine boundry margin between the scutes. AH has tried to explain it in a pretty scientific manner and I think he comes close. I haven't been able to find a reference which either supports or disputes the idea. 

The gist of my idea is that the keratin kind of 'floats' on the bone structure of the shell. If the keratin is not allowed to expand for one reason or another the bone still needs to grow if the right conditions are provided. The bone is then forced to push up rather than out. Keep in mind that bone grows by adding layers and at the sutures or bone plate boundries(which are nowhere near the scute layers). You'll notice that the pyramids corrispond to the scute boundries and not the bone boundries. Both heat and hydration probably have a strong effect on the scute boundies.

That's my thoughts on the topic.

Hope this get's me caught up.


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Nov 30, 2009)

Here is an easy question. Is tortoise care really this overly complicated? I have been on this forum for over a year now and it seems like we are till debating on the same topics.


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## -EJ (Nov 30, 2009)

This hobby can be made as simple or as complicated as you like.

These very same topics get redebated on a regular basis and have done so for the last 10 years I've been on the net.

The 'know it alls' say it isn't worth debating considering it was discussed and no conclusion was derived. I like the debating because it gives insight into the methods and ideas of other keepers (hence... new material)

Ahh the debate... there is no correct or one answer on many of these topics... only feeling and speculation. It seems feeling is one of the stronger drives.



Redfootedboxturtles said:


> Here is an easy question. Is tortoise care really this overly complicated? I have been on this forum for over a year now and it seems like we are till debating on the same topics.


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## Redfootedboxturtles (Nov 30, 2009)

So these debates are more for us then the tortoises


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## -EJ (Nov 30, 2009)

I don't know about anyone else but in my case it is a 50/50 interest.

I enjoy the social interaction and for those that actually take the debate seriously I learn new references and techniques... which I hope benefit the animals.

You can't beat the old references but with Exotic medicine becoming more profitable there is now newer actual research that is being published in reptile husbandry. These publishings are not always in reptile oriented publications and sometimes comes out in these 'worthless' discussions that continually get rehashed.

The worth of the discussion totally depends on the participants and the accuracy or relavence of the input.

The best stuff I get is when a person gets angry enough to do the proper research to prove themselves right and me wrong. I get some really good stuff in that case.



Redfootedboxturtles said:


> So these debates are more for us then the tortoises


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## Redfoot NERD (Nov 30, 2009)

stells said:


> Redfoot NERD said:
> 
> 
> > stells said:
> ...



Kelly I was asking Ed what he considered "proper husbandry" since he seems to always find something he doesn't like about something EVERYBODY says.

Wouldn't the polite thing to have done would have asked me for clarification first? 

Besides if I had to define "proper husbandry"... it would be what I've always said and shown. "If you want them to look like this.. here's how you do it" - with pics showing results over the years. That's simple enough isn't it? 

NERD


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## -EJ (Nov 30, 2009)

Here's something for you do think about... there are many people who raise animals as nice looking who's husbandry is nowhere near what you or I do.

What I find wrong is... 'this is THE way... all else is wrong'. THE way is usually the person who is postings way. 

That's always struck me as arrogant an short sighted. I know I come across that way but I hope that people read that my observations are just that... my observations and nothing more. I do think I'm right... but I also know I could be wrong. I don't suggest a method or advice to a person if I have the slightest doubt I could be wrong... I've said this many times.

That's one point of the debate. I like to think I can look at a post objectively and try to look a both sides.

Terry... to demonstrate my point... you never did say how you are keeping your tortoises now? Would you call that proper? I've never been to your place. I have seen a few pictures. Patterns based on similar keepers makes me confident to ask the question knowing the answer.
Don't read this as me implying you keep your tortoises improperly. Considering the nice animals and the breeding success I'd say you are keeping them pretty properly... but if you were to describe those conditions... I'll bet you'd get some nasty replys on certain forums.





Redfoot NERD said:


> Kelly I was asking Ed what he considered "proper husbandry" since he seems to always find something he doesn't like about something EVERYBODY says.
> 
> Besides if I had to define "proper husbandry"... it would be what I've always said and shown. "If you want them to look like this.. here's how you do it" - with pics showing results over the years. That's simple enough isn't it?
> 
> NERD


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## Redfoot NERD (Nov 30, 2009)

-EJ said:


> Here's something for you do think about... there are many people who raise animals as nice looking who's husbandry is nowhere near what you or I do.
> 
> What I find wrong is... 'this is THE way... all else is wrong'. THE way is usually the person who is postings way.
> 
> ...



Aren't you kinda putting 'words' into my postings Ed? You are reading into it aren't you?
What I find wrong is... 'this is THE way... all else is wrong'.

Where in the past 5 YEARS [ since I wrote the Caresheet on my website ] have I ever said anywhere.. "My way is the ONLY way that works and every other way is wrong"? I'm yet to get an answer on that same question.. since I've been here on TF.org.

I haven't really changed anything. I researched for over 5 years and ended up with "bumpy breeders"! A lot was changed! I did keep the advice of a few.. and have been watching them for a few years also.

Virtually everyone of my '05 to present "keepers" look good.. according to virtually everyone - what can I say?

Terry K


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## Yvonne G (Nov 30, 2009)

I'm hoping we all can keep cool heads when replying in this thread. It is a very educational thread and I'd hate to close it. 

To be truthful, Terry, you do come across in some of your postings that your way is the only way. I don't believe you've actually said those words, but the impression is there.

I don't keep Redfoot tortoises, but I DO refer most new RF keepers to your two web sites. Your pictures speak for themselves.


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## -EJ (Nov 30, 2009)

Terry... I'm not pushing anything here.

You made a comment of me finding fault in many posts... the only fault that I have a strong opinion about is that 'my way is the only/right way. Nowhere did I say another person said that. I'll take it to the person and mention that there are other methods... then the argument starts.

I like to encourage different ideas either through debate or question... that's how I learn.


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## Madkins007 (Nov 30, 2009)

Thanks, EJ. You believe that heat and humidity are the keys to preventing pyramiding, and I would assume you mean this for pretty much all species of tortoise? 

I am not sure if I made this clear enough, but I just found your wording on the original closed thread a little ambiguous and wanted some clarification.

Thanks again!


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## -EJ (Nov 30, 2009)

Not a problem... but I, again, think I could be wrong... but I believe I'm right. Time will tell. Again, this is not an exclusive or original thought. There are a good number tortoise keepers who believe the same. 



Madkins007 said:


> Thanks, EJ. You believe that heat and humidity are the keys to preventing pyramiding, and I would assume you mean this for pretty much all species of tortoise?
> 
> I am not sure if I made this clear enough, but I just found your wording on the original closed thread a little ambiguous and wanted some clarification.
> 
> Thanks again!


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## bettinge (Dec 1, 2009)

If you were to take a cross section of a pyramid, what would its make up be? I asume from EJ's comment above "The bone is then forced to push up rather than out" that its bone! 

What is the scute made of? I assume its not bone! I have a book on Hermann tortoises by Holger Vetter and it shows a tortoise that lived thru a forest fire but did not dig down deep enough. The scutes were burned off and the bone below is clearly visable! 

Also, when we say heat may have a strong effect, do you mean too little or too much heat?


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## -EJ (Dec 1, 2009)

It is exactly as you say in that the bone is concaved if you look at it from the inside. 

The scute in made of keratin which I believe is secreted by the live bone.

In the case of dead bone it does not secrete keratin but protects the live bone. The live bone then secretes a new layer of Keratin and the dead bone eventually falls off in most cases.

All reptiles metabolic processes are temperature dependent for the most part. You can have too little or too much heat.



bettinge said:


> If you were to take a cross section of a pyramid, what would its make up be? I asume from EJ's comment above "The bone is then forced to push up rather than out" that its bone!
> 
> What is the scute made of? I assume its not bone! I have a book on Hermann tortoises by Holger Vetter and it shows a tortoise that lived thru a forest fire but did not dig down deep enough. The scutes were burned off and the bone below is clearly visable!
> 
> Also, when we say heat may have a strong effect, do you mean too little or too much heat?


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## Yvonne G (Dec 1, 2009)

Here's a thread that shows just that...a cut off cross section of a healthy and a pyramided desert tortoise shell.

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-8618.html?highlight=pyramid


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## bettinge (Dec 1, 2009)

So Yvonne, From the looks of your link, not only is the shell pyramided on the inside as well, the shell itself also looks much more "honeycomb". Is that true, or am I looking at the photo wrong?

Great link by the way!


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## -EJ (Dec 1, 2009)

Totally different debate there...

That's the 'pyramiding/MBD' debate.

This is cause of pyramiding debate.

The link is a misleading one. Again... a 'pyramiding/MBD' thread should be started to cover this one... again.



emysemys said:


> Here's a thread that shows just that...a cut off cross section of a healthy and a pyramided desert tortoise shell.
> 
> http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-8618.html?highlight=pyramid


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## Yvonne G (Dec 1, 2009)

No, that's correct. The healthy shell is much denser.


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## Luvthemtorts (Dec 5, 2009)

Off topic but wanted to say hello to Ed.
Been a long time and I hope all has been well with you and the torts.
Hows that Redfoot I sent you doing? I swear it looked like a jaguar had attacked that poor critter in the wild lol.
Jackie Lapradd


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## -EJ (Dec 5, 2009)

Dude... I'm so glad you're doing well. (that's a huge assumption on my part)

You seriously need to keep in touch off the chats.

I still have the dark one. The marks distinguish him... when I do the daily count.




Luvthemtorts said:


> Off topic but wanted to say hello to Ed.
> Been a long time and I hope all has been well with you and the torts.
> Hows that Redfoot I sent you doing? I swear it looked like a jaguar had attacked that poor critter in the wild lol.
> Jackie Lapradd




These posts are eroneous. These are... first... captive animals... second... left in the yard for...



emysemys said:


> Here's a thread that shows just that...a cut off cross section of a healthy and a pyramided desert tortoise shell.
> 
> http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-8618.html?highlight=pyramid


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## Yvonne G (Dec 5, 2009)

-EJ said:


> Totally different debate there...
> 
> That's the 'pyramiding/MBD' debate.



I merely wanted them to see the picture.

What do you mean erroneous? What difference does it make if its a wild creature or a back yard creature. I showed the pictures and gave the link so people can see what "pyramiding" looks like on the inside.


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## -EJ (Dec 5, 2009)

It's erroneous in that it is a captive animal and that it was left in the yard for a while.





emysemys said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> > Totally different debate there...
> ...


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## Stephanie Logan (Dec 5, 2009)

Yes. I get it.

Showing a photo of a cross-section of a pyramided scute to illustrate what the tissue/bone looks like on the inside is erroneous because the pyramided tissue of a wild caught tortoise is different than the pyramided tissue of of captive bred tortoise, especially one that has been left out in the yard.


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## -EJ (Dec 5, 2009)

What's your point.

One more time... pyramiding is not an indication of MBD.



Stephanie Logan said:


> Yes. I get it.
> 
> Showing a photo of a cross-section of a pyramided scute to illustrate what the tissue/bone looks like on the inside is erroneous because the pyramided tissue of a wild caught tortoise is different than the pyramided tissue of of captive bred tortoise, especially one that has been left out in the yard.


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## Stephanie Logan (Dec 5, 2009)

Yes. Pyramiding and MBD are completely unrelated.


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## -EJ (Dec 5, 2009)

cool... there's one intellegent person in this hobby.



Stephanie Logan said:


> Yes. Pyramiding and MBD are completely unrelated.


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## Stephanie Logan (Dec 5, 2009)

If there's only one, it must be you. It can't be both of us! I am part of the great uneducated horde.


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## -EJ (Dec 5, 2009)

hey man... I'm an aircraft mechanic by trade but I'm proud to say I have an AS in biology... not that it is going to get me a job... not that I need it right now.





Stephanie Logan said:


> If there's only one, it must be you. It can't be both of us! I am part of the great uneducated horde.


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## Stephanie Logan (Dec 5, 2009)

I have a bachelor's degree in education and a master's degree in history, but that doesn't make me an expert on tortoises.


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## terryo (Dec 6, 2009)

There is a BIG difference in education and intelligence. Education does not make you intelligent, Ed. I am not as educated as you, but I've always thought of myself as intelligent. From reading your posts, Stephanie, I would have to say you are both....again...just my HO.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 6, 2009)

-EJ said:


> It's erroneous in that it is a captive animal and that it was left in the yard for a while.



I guess I'm just dense this a.m., but I still don't understand the point you're making. Ok, so MBD doesn't mean pyramiding. But the picture showed the cross section of two desert tortoises, one with pyramiding and one without. What difference does it make if the tortoise was "left in the yard for a while?"


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## Madkins007 (Dec 6, 2009)

Just to clarify something... MBD is not a specific disease, but a condition that is caused by many things, and many vets are annoyed by the use and misuse of the term rather than more accurate and specific terms for exactly what is happening. (Dr. Mader, "Reptile Medicine and Surgery", chapter 61, p.841, etc.)

MBD can be caused my many things, two major groups of it are nutritional (NMBD) and renal (RMBD), with NMBD being the most common.

The most common form of NMBD is 'Nutritional Secondary Hyperparathryroidism' (NSHP), poorly formed bones due to a lack of vitamin D (vitamin A plays an important role as well). This is the classic 'soft shell', but also affects all the bones and many other organs and systems. In iguanas it is often called 'Rubber Jaw'. There are other forms of MDB that can come into play, but most of the badly shaped shells we see are due, in large part, to NSHP.

Actual pyramiding seems to be driven in part by humidity/hydration, with other factors coming in to play as well. Pyramiding and NSHP often occur together and create the bumpy, flattened shell we sometimes see. Some elements of NSHP may play a role in some aspect of pyramiding, but the two are basically different issues.

(Source: Dr. Mader's "Reptile Medicine and Surgery" again.)


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## -EJ (Dec 6, 2009)

First... captive... I'm sure the ideal nutrition was not provided.

Second... the OP of those photos tried to imply that the seperation of the sutures was part of the MBD. When the bone dries the sutures naturally seperate.

If it was left to dry before the photos were taken there could be some misleading information in the point.



emysemys said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> > It's erroneous in that it is a captive animal and that it was left in the yard for a while.
> ...


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## Stephanie Logan (Dec 6, 2009)

terryo said:


> There is a BIG difference in education and intelligence. Education does not make you intelligent, Ed. I am not as educated as you, but I've always thought of myself as intelligent. From reading your posts, Stephanie, I would have to say you are both....again...just my HO.



Thank you.

I think most TFO members would agree, and Pio and Chewy and your turtle that runs from your hand, that you are quite the expert on not merely "suitable" but "ideal" vivariums for chelonians!


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## Meg90 (Dec 6, 2009)

-EJ said:


> First... captive... I'm sure the ideal nutrition was not provided.
> 
> Second... the OP of those photos tried to imply that the seperation of the sutures was part of the MBD. When the bone dries the sutures naturally seperate.
> 
> If it was left to dry before the photos were taken there could be some misleading information in the point.




How do you know what happens to the bone after it dries? Cracked open several tort shells have we? Minutes after death then?

I don't know WHAT point you are trying to make, by bashing photos that so obviously, and correctly depict the symptoms of the disease this thread is about.

Also, what in the world are you talking about, when you say sutures? I had to google it because it made no sense. This is what I found when I typed in "bone suture picture" http://msjensen.cehd.umn.edu/webanatomy/skeletons_skulls/skull_lateral_3.jpeg. The lines between the plates of the cranium are sutures.

Those photos of the pyramided tort shells DO NOT show sutures. They show porous and honeycombesque stacked bone.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 6, 2009)

Step back...you're getting upset over something that isn't worthy of your being upset.

The sutures are considered the part connecting the area of bone between what would be the scutes. So you would have to be looking down on the carapace with no scutes on the bone to see the sutures.


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## Meg90 (Dec 6, 2009)

That's exactly my point. The sutures of the shell don't even come into play in those photos. Therefore, no valid point is made with EJ's last post.

I agree with the general opinion that certain members here want to trot out their "knowledge" to shame the rest of the group. But I am tired of only reading "half" posts. This little dink and flicker tactic of flashing one tiny fact and not giving any background or explanation...its irritating.

I'm irritated. I will say it. Upset, not so much.


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## stells (Dec 7, 2009)

I took on a Hermanns a couple of years back with MBD... it is a completely different ball game to that of a tortoise that is just pyramided... with MBD there can be trouble with other bones in the body not just the shell

Pyramiding is purely cosmetic... it is nice to grow them smooth but you can have a healthy tortoise with some degree of pyramiding even if it isn't quite what you set out to do...

With MBD it effects more than just the shell... i ended up with a very flat tortoise... with an extremely overgrown beak (which i have been told can also be a sign of MBD)... with some give in his shelll... he couldn't walk on his hind legs and his penis kept prolapsing as he had no muscle tone whatsoever in his tail... amounst other problems... he really wasn't well... maybe a thread is needed to outline MBD to stop the confusion of people thinking that pyramided means MBD... 

I'm glad to say Frisbee (as i named him) is now doing loads better and runs around like a nutter now... but he will never be an eye pleasing tortoise.... as you can see below


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## -EJ (Dec 7, 2009)

To answer your question directly... yes. Necropsied my first tortoise in the late 70s. I worked for a wholesale reptile dealer. This gave me ample opportunity to learn a bit about both live and dead tortoises.

They are misleading photos. The ones with the cross section of the porous bone is normally porous. It is even slightly porous in the 'healthy' example.

The point that I'm trying to make is that there is a great deal of misleading information to 'obvious' problems.

If you would have added the word 'tortoise' to your search you would have found a little more and it would make my point clearer.




Meg90 said:


> How do you know what happens to the bone after it dries? Cracked open several tort shells have we? Minutes after death then?
> 
> I don't know WHAT point you are trying to make, by bashing photos that so obviously, and correctly depict the symptoms of the disease this thread is about.
> 
> ...


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## Meg90 (Dec 7, 2009)

You still have yet to provide any evidence of your own to combat those "incorrect" photos. So I am going to go with the visual evidence already presented before I listen to someone say "Oh that's wrong, I know better" but yet, offer no valid infomation.


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## Stephanie Logan (Dec 7, 2009)

stells said:


> Pyramiding is purely cosmetic... it is nice to grow them smooth but you can have a healthy tortoise with some degree of pyramiding even if it isn't quite what you set out to do...
> 
> I'm glad to say Frisbee (as i named him) is now doing loads better and runs around like a nutter now... but he will never be an eye pleasing tortoise.... as you can see below



Well, I showed Frisbee's photo to Taco and she thinks he is very handsome...and wants to be his pen-pal, if he agrees.


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## -EJ (Dec 7, 2009)

Please read my statement correctly...

"They are misleading photos. The ones with the cross section of the porous bone is normally porous. It is even slightly porous in the 'healthy' example."

...and the photos I was referring to were those linked to on the SW list.

In either case... nowhere did I say they were wrong.

The photos posted directly to this list are also misleading because you really can't tell where the cross sections were taken. Some sections of the tortoise shell is normally porous even in a healthy tortoise.






Meg90 said:


> You still have yet to provide any evidence of your own to combat those "incorrect" photos. So I am going to go with the visual evidence already presented before I listen to someone say "Oh that's wrong, I know better" but yet, offer no valid infomation.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 7, 2009)

-EJ said:


> Please read my statement correctly...
> 
> "They are misleading photos. The ones with the cross section of the porous bone is normally porous. It is even slightly porous in the 'healthy' example."
> 
> ...



I hate to continue this argument, but yes, Ed, you did say that the photos were "erroneous." And you posted that statement right after I gave the link to the picture of the cross section of a desert tortoise's carapace. I don't think any Shelled Warrior photos were even referred to here, were they? And I gave the link not for the porosity of the bone, but for the pyramid, so the person who asked the question could see what the inside of the pyramid looked like.


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## -EJ (Dec 7, 2009)

I was wrong in using 'erroneous' That is why I went with 'misleading'.

Porous bone is usually associated with MBD. The misleading point is that not all pyramided tortoises have MBD. Also... a tortoise that does have MBD is not always pyramided. Also... thin and porous shells is not always an indication of MBD.

As mentioned... the photos you posted were taken out of context because you can't tell where the cross sections were taken. The bone structure is different depending on the location in the shell.

If the best you can do is attack my grammar/spelling then I can pretty much assume you don't have a counter point.

I think it was the thread that this was removed from where someone posted the link to the SW discussion on pyramiding where that OP tried to make the same point that a pyramided tortoise has MBD... which is wrong.



emysemys said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> > Please read my statement correctly...
> ...


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## Yvonne G (Dec 7, 2009)

Attack your grammar? Please! You said the pictures were wrong and I didn't understand why they were wrong. This is not grammar. So ok, now you've admitted you used the wrong word, but how was I supposed to know that? I didn't show the picture so that we could discuss the porosity of the cross section, I only showed it so that the person who asked about it could see the inside ( underside) of the pyramid. That is my counterpoint. I was only showing the reverse side of the pyramids, not wanting to get into the MBD discussion.


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## -EJ (Dec 7, 2009)

That's exactly what you are doing. 

I said the photos as they were being used in the context of the discussions were erroneous... I gave it a little thought and corrected my statement to say the photos were misleading... which they are in the context of the discussion.

Check out the definition of 'erroneous'... if I wanted to use a word as strong as 'wrong'... I would have.

I corrected my grammar in the very next post I made.

I do seem to remember a mention of bone density. When I read that I think there is a need to clarify the point that pyramiding is not always associated with MBD.



emysemys said:


> Attack your grammar? Please! You said the pictures were wrong and I didn't understand why they were wrong. This is not grammar. So ok, now you've admitted you used the wrong word, but how was I supposed to know that? I didn't show the picture so that we could discuss the porosity of the cross section, I only showed it so that the person who asked about it could see the inside ( underside) of the pyramid. That is my counterpoint. I was only showing the reverse side of the pyramids, not wanting to get into the MBD discussion.


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## Shelly (Dec 7, 2009)

-EJ said:


> I think there is a need to clarify the point that pyramiding is not always associated with MBD.



Do you feel that pyramiding, without MBD, is strictly a cosmetic issue, or are there still health consequences for the animal?


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## -EJ (Dec 7, 2009)

There's no doubt in my mind that pyramiding without MBD is strictly cosmetic... and in time... given the proper circumstances... can even be warn flat without harm to the animal. 

In the case of a Sulcata that is pyramided... if the tortoise was allowed to burrow... the bumps should eventually wear down.



Shelly said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> > I think there is a need to clarify the point that pyramiding is not always associated with MBD.
> ...


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## Kadaan (Dec 7, 2009)

So if a tortoise has proper vitamin D to prevent MBD but is lacking humidity or has too much dietary protein, it may still become pyramided without hollow/soft shells?

If not, what are the circumstances that would cause pyramiding unrelated to MBD?


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## -EJ (Dec 7, 2009)

The tortoise has to have either the proper vitamin D (D3) or the means (UVB) to metabolise the components to provide the D3.

Loose the idea of the 'too much protein'. I've yet to find a single person who can pinpoint... 'too much protein'... That's actually another topic.

You can have pyramiding and not have any physiological deficiencies. Some species such as the Stars, Leopards and the Tent tortoises have actually been accepted as a species which 'normally' pyramid... which is also incorrect. They are species which do demonstrate pyramiding in the natural population but there has to be a reason for it because all of these species can be raised without pyramiding.

The current accepted reason for the cause of pyramiding is a strong suggestion towards a lack of humidity. My personal thinking is heat and hydration. The heat is primary... that is the primary control of the tortoises metabolism.

The idea of 'too much protein' stems from the days tortoises were fed dog food. Dog food in those days were mostly animal by products... fat, grissle, entrals... and a little muscle... in addition to gravy and maybe some grain... very little grain.

Todays dogfoods... outside of the canned dogfoods are grain based. I'll be willing to be if those dogfoods were available back when this Protein myth would not be around today.





Kadaan said:


> So if a tortoise has proper vitamin D to prevent MBD but is lacking humidity or has too much dietary protein, it may still become pyramided without hollow/soft shells?
> 
> If not, what are the circumstances that would cause pyramiding unrelated to MBD?


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## Yvonne G (Dec 7, 2009)

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you saying that if a tortoise isn't warm enough, the food he eats causes the growth to be pyramided? That makes sense to me.


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## -EJ (Dec 7, 2009)

Yes and no.

I've seen tortoises kept cool and fed horrible diets that come out perfect... small but perfect in form.

There is a ballance... and the balance is based on a dynamic... and an entire book can be written on that dynamic.

This conversation is fun but not very realistic. You can't provide a specific answer but the heat and hydration are the very basic starting points for which the other stuff is worthless if you do not have the basic heat and hydration.



emysemys said:


> I don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you saying that if a tortoise isn't warm enough, the food he eats causes the growth to be pyramided? That makes sense to me.


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## Madkins007 (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks, EJ, for sharing your thoughts! I appreciate it when proven breeders in our group take the time to post.


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## Stephanie Logan (Dec 7, 2009)

-EJ said:


> The current accepted reason for the cause of pyramiding is a strong suggestion towards a lack of humidity. My personal thinking is heat and hydration. The heat is primary... that is the primary control of the tortoises metabolism.




So what temperatures do you create for your Chacos and with what equipment? What percentage of humidity in the enclosure and in the hide? 

Are there any other Chaco-specific conditions you provide to ensure smooth shell growth?


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## -EJ (Dec 7, 2009)

I keep my Chacos like I do the rest. The bizzar point there is they eat like beasts... and do not grow. There is a little growth but I've had them close to 8 years. Humidity... very low. 

I really don't give any of it much thought as far as my animals are concerned. Might read wierd but my actions are based on my feelings and experience. That's a tough thing to convey. The strongest factors are heat and hydration... not only external hydration. Chacos drink like camels... more than any tortoise I've ever seen.



Stephanie Logan said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> > The current accepted reason for the cause of pyramiding is a strong suggestion towards a lack of humidity. My personal thinking is heat and hydration. The heat is primary... that is the primary control of the tortoises metabolism.
> ...


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## nearpass (Dec 7, 2009)

I feel somewhat like I'm butting in here  but has anyone read _Naturalistic Keeping and Breeding of Hermann's Tortoises_ by Wolfgang Wegehaupt? He has done some pretty extensive observation of Mediterranean tortoises in the wild, and feels that hydration is extremely important, more so than humidity (which primarily helps mitigate dehydration). He documents bumpy tortoises in the wild and indicates they are primarily from areas with almost no available drinking water. In bold, on page 253, he says, "Monitor the water intake of your animals and do not hesitate to intervene if you notice juveniles that drink too little or even not at all." I'm really just briefly mentioning this here, as I highly recommend the book to anyone keeping a tortoise, especially the Mediterranean ones, not to mention it has some great photos to illustrate some of his points.


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## -EJ (Dec 7, 2009)

It's a great book... but he's a German. I said that for shock value. You have to understand that the Germans are brilliant for providing info on many in the pet trade. The Hermanns book is fantastic... but it is still biased. Note the title.

The observation on the pyramiding in the wild... spot on... but I believe there are other factors... hydration being the primary one.

I'm just expressing some thought.

The one study that everyone currently uses as to pyramiding... a German study. It is compelling but it could have been done better.



nearpass said:


> I feel somewhat like I'm butting in here  but has anyone read _Naturalistic Keeping and Breeding of Hermann's Tortoises_ by Wolfgang Wegehaupt? He has done some pretty extensive observation of Mediterranean tortoises in the wild, and feels that hydration is extremely important, more so than humidity (which primarily helps mitigate dehydration). He documents bumpy tortoises in the wild and indicates they are primarily from areas with almost no available drinking water. In bold, on page 253, he says, "Monitor the water intake of your animals and do not hesitate to intervene if you notice juveniles that drink too little or even not at all." I'm really just briefly mentioning this here, as I highly recommend the book to anyone keeping a tortoise, especially the Mediterranean ones, not to mention it has some great photos to illustrate some of his points.


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## nearpass (Dec 7, 2009)

Well, I guess I'm kind of partial to Germans! He touches on a lot of issues that concern folks here, in a clear and easy to comprehend manner, and his shell cross-sections do distinguish between lumpy, but normal, and lumpy with MBD. Certainly more food for thought in that book 



-EJ said:


> It's a great book... but he's a German. I said that for shock value. You have to understand that the Germans are brilliant for providing info on many in the pet trade. The Hermanns book is fantastic... but it is still biased. Note the title.
> 
> The observation on the pyramiding in the wild... spot on... but I believe there are other factors... hydration being the primary one.
> 
> ...


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## -EJ (Dec 7, 2009)

This is why I have always loved Germans to an extreme... They are anal to no end. I took German for 3 years to read the herp litterature in german... they finally wised up and saw how much they could make in the the 'english' herp industry.

Can you give me the page to the cross section?





nearpass said:


> Well, I guess I'm kind of partial to Germans! He touches on a lot of issues that concern folks here, in a clear and easy to comprehend manner, and his shell cross-sections do distinguish between lumpy, but normal, and lumpy with MBD. Certainly more food for thought in that book
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## nearpass (Dec 7, 2009)

The cross-section photos, there are three, are on Pages 250 and 252.



-EJ said:


> This is why I have always loved Germans to an extreme... They are anal to no end. I took German for 3 years to read the herp litterature in german... they finally wised up and saw how much they could make in the the 'english' herp industry.
> 
> Can you give me the page to the cross section?
> 
> ...


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## -EJ (Dec 7, 2009)

Thank you very much for pointing that out. I know I've seen them but didn't (read... too lazy) to find them.

Those are brilliant shots... one problem... the spinal bone is not present in each. What's important in that pont is that if you drew a line on the spinal bone... they would be the same on both examples.

The top example is an extreme and a very good one.


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## Stephanie Logan (Dec 7, 2009)

-EJ said:


> I keep my Chacos like I do the rest. The bizzar point there is they eat like beasts... and do not grow. There is a little growth but I've had them close to 8 years. Humidity... very low.
> 
> I really don't give any of it much thought as far as my animals are concerned. Might read wierd but my actions are based on my feelings and experience. That's a tough thing to convey. The strongest factors are heat and hydration... not only external hydration. Chacos drink like camels... more than any tortoise I've ever seen.



I hardly ever see Taco drinking, but I soak her at least 4 times a week to encourage her to drink, and she has fresh water in her enclosure at all times. The water level decreases regularly, so she is either drinking or the CHE is causing the water to evaporate. 

Taco eats like a bird, but I think she gets all the essentials: endive, cactus fruit, squash, one pellet Mazuri, a shake of TNT and of calcium (no D3 or phosphorus), small amount of grape or watermelon puree, chopped mushroom.

Colorado has extremely low humidity so I have a muslin bag full of sphagnum peat moss in her hide that I keep moist-to-wet. I don't have a humidity meter yet. Do you recommend one?

Her hide temp is 65-70, her enclosure ranges from 105 under her Trex bulb, 80-85 near the CHE, 70 in the far corners.

What would you change if she were your tortoise?


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## -EJ (Dec 7, 2009)

I'm not gonna go there.

I had 25... lost 21. Spent $2000 in diagnostics... no result. When I got to Georgia I traded an Aldabra for 3 Chacos (I really like them). 2 died within a couple of weeks. 

I've got this really good herp vet within 2 hours of me... $1000 later... It's still with me.

The point... I'm not going to even give you a suggestion.

You have an amazing vet in your state... don't know how close he is to you... Dr. Klingingburg... that's the guy to contact.

Bottom line... treat for protozoa... regardless of diagnostics.

Description... my guys fight... scramble for food... have the most outgoing personalities. That's what I call a 'normal' chaco.



Stephanie Logan said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> > I keep my Chacos like I do the rest. The bizzar point there is they eat like beasts... and do not grow. There is a little growth but I've had them close to 8 years. Humidity... very low.
> ...


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## Stephanie Logan (Dec 7, 2009)

OK. Thanks for your honesty.


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## -EJ (Dec 7, 2009)

Good luck with your charge...



Stephanie Logan said:


> OK. Thanks for your honesty.


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## bettinge (Dec 7, 2009)

nearpass said:


> I feel somewhat like I'm butting in here  but has anyone read _Naturalistic Keeping and Breeding of Hermann's Tortoises_ by Wolfgang Wegehaupt? He has done some pretty extensive observation of Mediterranean tortoises in the wild, and feels that hydration is extremely important, more so than humidity (which primarily helps mitigate dehydration). He documents bumpy tortoises in the wild and indicates they are primarily from areas with almost no available drinking water. In bold, on page 253, he says, "Monitor the water intake of your animals and do not hesitate to intervene if you notice juveniles that drink too little or even not at all." I'm really just briefly mentioning this here, as I highly recommend the book to anyone keeping a tortoise, especially the Mediterranean ones, not to mention it has some great photos to illustrate some of his points.




Any suggestions on the best place to buy this book? Nevermind, I had the spelling wrong first. I have found it on Amazon!


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## nearpass (Dec 7, 2009)

He's self published the book. Here's the web site...it's worthwhile just reading here..lots of good information for any med. tortoise/hermanni keeper. If you follow the links for the book, you'll get to the order page, some of which is in German, but you should be able to figure it out. It has a paypal payment option, which is what I did, and I got the book in about 3 weeks. I haven't found any direct way to just buy it here in the US.

http://www.testudo-farm.de/html/en_home.html



bettinge said:


> nearpass said:
> 
> 
> > I feel somewhat like I'm butting in here  but has anyone read _Naturalistic Keeping and Breeding of Hermann's Tortoises_ by Wolfgang Wegehaupt? He has done some pretty extensive observation of Mediterranean tortoises in the wild, and feels that hydration is extremely important, more so than humidity (which primarily helps mitigate dehydration). He documents bumpy tortoises in the wild and indicates they are primarily from areas with almost no available drinking water. In bold, on page 253, he says, "Monitor the water intake of your animals and do not hesitate to intervene if you notice juveniles that drink too little or even not at all." I'm really just briefly mentioning this here, as I highly recommend the book to anyone keeping a tortoise, especially the Mediterranean ones, not to mention it has some great photos to illustrate some of his points.
> ...




Wow, very cool and good on you...wasn't available there when I was looking for it!



bettinge said:


> nearpass said:
> 
> 
> > I feel somewhat like I'm butting in here  but has anyone read _Naturalistic Keeping and Breeding of Hermann's Tortoises_ by Wolfgang Wegehaupt? He has done some pretty extensive observation of Mediterranean tortoises in the wild, and feels that hydration is extremely important, more so than humidity (which primarily helps mitigate dehydration). He documents bumpy tortoises in the wild and indicates they are primarily from areas with almost no available drinking water. In bold, on page 253, he says, "Monitor the water intake of your animals and do not hesitate to intervene if you notice juveniles that drink too little or even not at all." I'm really just briefly mentioning this here, as I highly recommend the book to anyone keeping a tortoise, especially the Mediterranean ones, not to mention it has some great photos to illustrate some of his points.
> ...


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