# Off topic: Experts: Humid vs. Dry



## Zeko (Mar 21, 2015)

jaizei said:


> Debate the topic, not another member's experience. If you feel the need to alert anyone of another members experience, do it through PM.



On the contrary, anyone giving advice should list their experiences, and in this case, show pictures of their tortoises. 

Everyone has opinions, but not everyone's opinion is equal.

And by deleting posts that show the experience level of a person is doing a disservice to this community. We are here for the betterment of the tortoises. Imagine if someone reads this horrible advice and their tortoises suffer. That is on you, and you alone, by deleting such posts.

Continue to do such, and you will find us experience keepers finding a new home, and all you will have left is ignorance within this community.


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## jaizei (Mar 21, 2015)

Long ago, when someone else's experience was called into question, the edict from Josh was that members were to debate the topics and not each others' experience. So that's the way it is.

Those that remember from way back when will also note the irony of the situation.

Also, I moved this from the other thread because it was off topic and replying there would have encouraged more off topic posts.


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## Zeko (Mar 21, 2015)

However, as you fail to see, the original post is not in the debatable section, and furthermore the OP is asking for experts advice. The people giving advice should be experts, and back up their expertise.

@Tom


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## Zeko (Mar 21, 2015)

@Josh 

In regards to the PM we sent you.


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## Zeko (Mar 21, 2015)

A


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## ascott (Mar 22, 2015)

Zeko said:


> However, as you fail to see, the original post is not in the debatable section, and furthermore the OP is asking for experts advice. The people giving advice should be experts, and back up their expertise.
> 
> @Tom




You are a bit pompous in your addressing the moderator here....in my "opinion" that is--and we all know the feeling on opinions and what those are often compared to---and you see----I could care less your thoughts.... this is a forum of members who lay claim to what ever they want...and some absolutely do inflate their worth here to meet the legends they have created in their own head....there is no way to confirm nor deny what wares people wish to peddle here....anyone can come here and say what ever they want---you, me--anyone. There is no way to prove any of it...remember it is an online forum....so, it is buyer beware so to speak.....if someone mentions something and you know nothing of it--research my friend, research....we are all responsible for our own destiny as is the tortoise in our care completely reliant upon our educating ourselves.....there are a handful of folks on this forum that toot their own self created horn and then have the nerve to demand others toot right along with them..wake up folks, you are responsible for the care, control and custody of the tortoise you have in forced captive enclosures....clear as that. So it would be nice to see folks taking that responsibility upon themselves versus this silliness.....

There is no such thing as an "EXPERT"....however, those that somehow feel they should be crowned one seem to want to challenge every other member that does not hit the ground bowing.....grow up. I come to this forum for the new tortoise hosts that stumble upon a group of others with a common interest in the varied ways they can and should be cared for....there is no one way to raise a tortoise, there is no one person who knows the all mighty way....get over yourself and get back to sharing your experience and knowledge with others...and stop this BS bickering...damn.


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## Tom (Mar 22, 2015)

jaizei said:


> Debate the topic, not another member's experience. If you feel the need to alert anyone of another members experience, do it through PM.



This is absurd. Put my post back up.

When a person, any person, comes on to a forum telling people all about the right way or the wrong way to do things, but has never actually done the thing at all, the readers, _all_ the readers, deserve to know it. We all deserve to know what this person's arguments are based on.

_THIS_ practice of deleting people's posts, censorship in effect, is the reason why everyone who knows something about tortoises leaves this site. You want a tortoise site with nothing but noobs and people with emotion based arguments?


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## Tom (Mar 22, 2015)

ascott said:


> ...get over yourself and get back to sharing your experience and knowledge with others...and stop this BS bickering...damn.



There is "bickering" because one of the persons involved in this thread is making all sorts of claims that are based on nothing since she has no experience whatsoever on the topic.

The psychic predictions about what other members think of themselves and the belittling of others isn't helping either.

Want the bickering to stop? Then stop offering advice on subjects you know absolutely nothing about. I think you should take your own advice and share about the things you actually have experience with, such as maintaining adult DTs in your climate.


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## zenoandthetortoise (Mar 22, 2015)

Found this by accident as I only check in on the classifieds any more. For the reasons mentioned; unsupported opinions and censorship by the moderators. No big loss I'm sure, but I'm also sure I'm not the only one


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## ascott (Mar 22, 2015)

zenoandthetortoise said:


> _*Found this by accident as I only check in on the classifieds any more*_. For the reasons mentioned; unsupported opinions and censorship by the moderators. No big loss I'm sure, but I'm also sure I'm not the only one



Weird how this "accident" took place....."off topic chit chat" vs "classifieds"....so similar?....clearly we can see how the accident came about....you are correct, no big loss....


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## leigti (Mar 22, 2015)

ascott said:


> Weird how this "accident" took place....."off topic chit chat" vs "classifieds"....so similar?....clearly we can see how the accident came about....you are correct, no big loss....


WTF are you talking about? This will probably be a racist but I just don't care. I can't be the only one wondering what the hell is going on with this quote and this thread. Maybe it's time just as close this thread and stop it. I was following it okay until the statement I don't understand it please fill me in.


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## zenoandthetortoise (Mar 22, 2015)

ascott said:


> Weird how this "accident" took place....."off topic chit chat" vs "classifieds"....so similar?....clearly we can see how the accident came about....you are correct, no big loss....



Well that sounds a little mean spirited, but I'm sure it's not or the moderators would of course stepped in. Anyway, it is kind of weird; see, I've been watching the classifieds for a sulcata. Never had one before, 6 other species but not that one. Something about your posts make me want to follow your every instruction so I do well with this new species. Can you please provide pictures of your Sulcata set up? How about your Sulcata outdoor pens? How many do you have? I'm just so interested in all your Sulcata experience so I, a beginner, can benefit from your expertise. Thank you so much for your time and for knowledgable insights. Maybe not be rude this time?


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## Zeko (Mar 22, 2015)

Anyone else think Ascott's name is missing an "S" ?


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## ascott (Mar 22, 2015)

Zeko said:


> Anyone else think Ascott's name is missing an "S" ?




Actually, I believe the correction to your oh so clever comment should be ---missing two S---....correct....that _*is*_ the clever remark you were trying for, then again---that is simply MY OPINION--however I do not have any proof to support that opinion---ahh man what to do? I can do this all day...but I am beginning to feel like I am picking on a defenseless tree stump....however, it would appear that the stump can hold its own....your good right.....?


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## ascott (Mar 22, 2015)

leigti said:


> WTF are you talking about? This will probably be a racist but I just don't care. I can't be the only one wondering what the hell is going on with this quote and this thread. Maybe it's time just as close this thread and stop it. I was following it okay until the statement I don't understand it please fill me in.




I am now confused as well....racist? none of what you said has anything to do with anything racist? This thread was moved to its own place so as to no taint the original thread it was severed from....which then set it on its own path....I can assure you that no good is coming from this thread and I am finished with the spiral....well, after one more that is....just to clarify is all....have a great night and perhaps not visit this thread any more if it is disconcerting to you .....


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## ascott (Mar 22, 2015)

zenoandthetortoise said:


> Well that sounds a little mean spirited, but I'm sure it's not or the moderators would of course stepped in. Anyway, it is kind of weird; see, I've been watching the classifieds for a sulcata. Never had one before, 6 other species but not that one. Something about your posts make me want to follow your every instruction so I do well with this new species. Can you please provide pictures of your Sulcata set up? How about your Sulcata outdoor pens? How many do you have? I'm just so interested in all your Sulcata experience so I, a beginner, can benefit from your expertise. Thank you so much for your time and for knowledgable insights._* Maybe not be rude this time*_?




Where is it that I have EVER EVER, did I say EVER claim to host Sulcata? Where did Sulcata come into play for THIS thread ? No where --that is where.....There are vast species I, nor you, host personally----what is your point? Seriously, I am interested in the valid purpose of this question....what is your creative way of thinking that brought this to the thread? As a matter of fact, printed right in my signature section of my profile....it clearly shows and has done so since day one---the species of tortoise and turtle in my care....I am always amused by this question....hmm.

Polite enough for you?


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## leigti (Mar 22, 2015)

ascott said:


> I am now confused as well....racist? none of what you said has anything to do with anything racist? This thread was moved to its own place so as to no taint the original thread it was severed from....which then set it on its own path....I can assure you that no good is coming from this thread and I am finished with the spiral....well, after one more that is....just to clarify is all....have a great night and perhaps not visit this thread any more if it is disconcerting to you .....


Erased not racist. Sometimes it doesn't write what I dictate. And I don't always doublecheck it, my fault for that part. Threads shouldn't have to get to the point where people get so frustrated they want to quit reading it.


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## ascott (Mar 22, 2015)

leigti said:


> Erased not racist. Sometimes it doesn't write what I dictate. And I don't always doublecheck it, my fault for that part. Threads shouldn't have to get to the point where people get so frustrated they want to quit reading it.




Oh, now that makes sense...while I do not agree I understand what you were trying to relay....there is nothing wrong with a little healthy banter....I find it amusing that the thread took off by multiple people and each has something nasty to say---each one....however you find mine the straw on the camels back....I mean, that makes not real difference to me, I just find it interesting is all....it is kinda like a car accident, you don't want to look but then you just can't help yourself right---well, if you look you will like see things you wish you had not seen....so it is entirely your choice dear....


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## zenoandthetortoise (Mar 22, 2015)

ascott said:


> Where is it that I have EVER EVER, did I say EVER claim to host Sulcata? Where did Sulcata come into play for THIS thread ? No where --that is where.....There are vast species I, nor you, host personally----what is your point? Seriously, I am interested in the valid purpose of this question....what is your creative way of thinking that brought this to the thread? As a matter of fact, printed right in my signature section of my profile....it clearly shows and has done so since day one---the species of tortoise and turtle in my care....I am always amused by this question....hmm.
> 
> Polite enough for you?



Actually no, it's not polite in the slightest. Why you react this way to straightforward questions is most likely a problem best saved for group. Best of luck working through that. The more relevant question here is why are you offering husbandry advice on a species you don't host. I really am looking for a Sulcata. I really haven't had one before. You really do offer advice on their care. You are apparently not qualified in the slightest to do so. It'd be great if for all of us beginners out there, if you would stop doing that. A little less condescension would be appropriate as well.


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## ascott (Mar 22, 2015)

zenoandthetortoise said:


> Actually no, it's not polite in the slightest. Why you react this way to straightforward questions is most likely a problem best saved for group. Best of luck working through that. _*The more relevant question here is why are you offering husbandry advice on a species you don't host.*_ I really am looking for a Sulcata. I really haven't had one before. You really do offer advice on their care. _*You are apparently not qualified in the slightest to do so*_. It'd be great if for all of us beginners out there, if you would stop doing that. A little less condescension would be appropriate as well.




No, I disagree. I also asked a simple question that I believe you already know the answer to and I never have implied otherwise....did you not see the species that I host right in my signature section? _That is actually a yes or no question_---no need for opinion or feelings--easy right? You see, in my reply it was never sent with condescension--you apparently read it that way...also,

_*it's not polite in the slightest.*_

I really was asking you if that reply was polite enough. I really did not send that question to you with any ill intent. You really did read it in a way other than the way it was meant. If you would stop doing that then this pointless conversation would be over...I also find it would be most appropriate.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Mar 23, 2015)

I really hope newbies (and I am still one of them though my experience of torts is longer than my membership) don't read this thread ( Though it seems some of them don't read ANY threads.)
It will frighten people away.
Anyway, risking ridicule, here's my say, for what it's worth.
1) It is not always necessary to have experience to give advice. I have never stuck my head in an oven, but I would advise anyone not to do so. Reading can give one a lot of information, I have read a lot about pre-Etruscan pottery and believe I can talk with authority on the subject but I've never actually owned any.
2) Not everyone who is not an expert is 'ignorant'. I am here to learn and give advice from experience and what I have learned.
3) Help the tortoises. That's the point, isn't it? how many of you people are on day after day answering all the queries from worried tortoise owners and welcoming newbies to the forum. Some people that do this only answer one question or say welcome and then disappear, leaving the OP feeling abandoned, as they often need reassurance and have follow up questions.
4) You all need to spend less time arguing amongst yourselves, putting off newbies and maybe even chasing each other away from this super forum (potentially a super-duper forum) and have some fun and try to help each other, newbies, those with tortoises in distress and most importantly of all - the tortoises that are the point of this forum after all.
I hope you all love your tortoises and care about torts in general, or are you all too concerned with your own personal agendas ?
Please be nice.


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## zenoandthetortoise (Mar 23, 2015)

ascott said:


> No, I disagree. I also asked a simple question that I believe you already know the answer to and I never have implied otherwise....did you not see the species that I host right in my signature section? _That is actually a yes or no question_---no need for opinion or feelings--easy right? You see, in my reply it was never sent with condescension--you apparently read it that way...also,
> 
> _*it's not polite in the slightest.*_
> 
> I really was asking you if that reply was polite enough. I really did not send that question to you with any ill intent. You really did read it in a way other than the way it was meant. If you would stop doing that then this pointless conversation would be over...I also find it would be most appropriate.




My apologies for not answering your simple question; no, I did not look up your profile and on the App, the signature section is not included. I'd still have the same follow up question, namely, what do you know about humidity levels for Sulcatas and how do you know it? Seems like the answer is that you don't and that's what makes this conversation pointless. Helpful hint: random and excessive use of ellipses and capital letters are not helping your quest for either clarity or tone.


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## ascott (Mar 23, 2015)

zenoandthetortoise said:


> My apologies for not answering your simple question; no, I did not look up your profile and on the App, the signature section is not included. I'd still have the same follow up question, namely, what do you know about humidity levels for Sulcatas and how do you know it? Seems like the answer is that you don't and that's what makes this conversation pointless. Helpful hint: random and excessive use of ellipses and capital letters are not helping your quest for either clarity or tone.




I did not ask you if you looked up my profile, why would you do that?

What do I know about humidity levels for Sulcatas? Humidity is necessary for just about every living thing to begin with...let me switch this around on you--as I am getting awfully tired of being on stage each and every time I clearly state that I am not on the hight humidity closed chamber wet soggy tortoise enclosure train as a cure all for a perfect shell, which in itself does not mean the tortoise as a whole is healthy--we see too many smooth looking babies deaths shared here on this forum)...what solid proof, research, documents do you have in your possession to show that this is the best way to assure a healthy tortoise...and I don't mean the information in the last couple of years....and even more narrowed down---not the information here from the last couple of years....I mea out in the real world?


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## ascott (Mar 23, 2015)

zenoandthetortoise said:


> My apologies for not answering your simple question; no, I did not look up your profile and on the App, the signature section is not included. I'd still have the same follow up question, namely, what do you know about humidity levels for Sulcatas and how do you know it? Seems like the answer is that you don't and that's what makes this conversation pointless. Helpful hint: _*random and excessive use of ellipses and capital letters are not helping your quest for either clarity or tone.*_





Oh...and I will express myself in any manner I like. Rest assured, I am on no quest for clarity nor tone, we are hearing one another bang on....


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## Tidgy's Dad (Mar 23, 2015)

Oh well, I tried.
I hate being ignored.
I give up, not that anyone's listening anyway, which was, in part, my point.


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## Killerrookie (Mar 23, 2015)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Oh well, I tried.
> I hate being ignored.
> I give up, not that anyone's listening anyway, which was, in part, my point.


I will listen to you!!!


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## ascott (Mar 23, 2015)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Oh well, I tried.
> I hate being ignored.
> I give up, not that anyone's listening anyway, which was, in part, my point.




Apology from me to you and to all of the newbies that will read this post. I have to admit and again, apologize for my manners and allowing myself to be pulled into the petty garbage that a handful of members here encourage....until recently I usually try to stay out of this type of tennis match and will return to that. I believe the errors in my way begin when I hear only one aspect being addressed and other important variables ignored...and then I see another persons baby tortoise pay the ultimate price....then the undertones of failure are quick to be handed out because someone did not follow the popular ways.....this is where I will stop.

Thank you for the sensibility you have just brought to me, have a good night.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Mar 23, 2015)

Killerrookie said:


> I will listen to you!!!


Thank you, you are supporting my point just in being 16 years old!


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## Killerrookie (Mar 23, 2015)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Thank you, you are supporting my point just in being 16 years old!


Omg you made me burst out laughing lol.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Mar 23, 2015)

ascott said:


> Apology from me to you and to all of the newbies that will read this post. I have to admit and again, apologize for my manners and allowing myself to be pulled into the petty garbage that a handful of members here encourage....until recently I usually try to stay out of this type of tennis match and will return to that. I believe the errors in my way begin when I hear only one aspect being addressed and other important variables ignored...and then I see another persons baby tortoise pay the ultimate price....then the undertones of failure are quick to be handed out because someone did not follow the popular ways.....this is where I will stop.
> 
> Thank you for the sensibility you have just brought to me, have a good night.


You too.


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## Jacqui (Mar 23, 2015)

Has everybody had a chance to get this off their chests, so we can go back to being civil with each other?


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## Team Gomberg (Mar 23, 2015)

@ascott, just to clarify... Those of us that use TFO from cell phones (the app or browser) do not see signatures. ..at all. They are not included under the posts like they are when using TFO in a computer. We would have to look up your profile to find it...I think, although I've never tried. 

That's why the other member has never seen your signature and mentioned viewing your profile...


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## zenoandthetortoise (Mar 23, 2015)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Please be nice.



I concur. Clarity is good too.


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## zenoandthetortoise (Mar 23, 2015)

ascott said:


> Oh...and I will express myself in any manner I like. Rest assured, I am on no quest for clarity nor tone, we are hearing one another bang on....



By all means, express yourself. But absent clarity it is not at all clear what your point is or if you have one. Absent tone, you can't blame the reader for your apparent rudeness.


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## Prairie Mom (Mar 23, 2015)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> I really hope newbies (and I am still one of them though my experience of torts is longer than my membership) don't read this thread ( Though it seems some of them don't read ANY threads.)
> It will frighten people away.
> Anyway, risking ridicule, here's my say, for what it's worth.
> 1) It is not always necessary to have experience to give advice. I have never stuck my head in an oven, but I would advise anyone not to do so. Reading can give one a lot of information, I have read a lot about pre-Etruscan pottery and believe I can talk with authority on the subject but I've never actually owned any.
> ...


HERE HERE!!! Well said, Tidgy's Dad!!! There is not one sentence that could be improved! Thank you for eloquently voicing my own feelings far better than I ever could! I'm one of the newbies spoken of. I knew nothing about tortoises until last September. I have obsessively been learning everything I can and have gained so much knowledge from this forum and am seeing the positive results. I've also fallen carapace over claws (-couldn't resist) for some of the fun personalities I've exchanged typing with. I don't have the experience that it seems nearly EVERYONE else here has, but I've learned so much! I really enjoy the opportunity to share what has helped me, my failures and successes, and love talking torts (&love talking tort food). There have been a few posts in this argument that I suspect could make newer people like myself feel less welcome contributing or worry that our contributions are considered less valuable. 

I came across this the other day and liked it enough that I thought I'd post it here...



I still have major *MAJOR* lessons to learn about interacting with people (especially online) and really liked Jaizei's advice to stick with debating the topic. I think we can still have a healthy respect for people we disagree with. (<----yes, I'm addressing myself again!)
Thanks again, Tidgy's Dad!!!


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## Cowboy_Ken (Mar 23, 2015)

With football season over, this thread has been an entertaining game for me.


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## tortadise (Mar 23, 2015)

Y'all need to cool off.

My opinion on raising a tortoise/turtle correctly is defined within a threshold of environment, this can be moderate to difficult depending on what environmental ecosystem you reside in. Naturally every species of tortoise found throughout the world hatches and starts out in a climactic change. No temperature, humidity, rain or sun is consistent anywhere in the world. Facilitating a proper method for any reptile or animal is strictly based off a threshold and tolerances that are within a specified perimeter for said animal to flourish. There's no exact right constant method that can be utilized. So "dry" or "wet" is entirely too vague and both methods will not flourish a perfectly grown captive animal. This is a too broad of a question that entails a detailed specific husbandry. Testudo for example are prone to cool nights, humid foggy mornings and dry hot afternoons. So you have hot dry, cool and wet all in one day. That's one particular part of a season they're exposed to, so in captivity dry and hot would not be a suitable constant method of husbandry. These geographical errors are misconstrued by many many keepers. Even zoos, biologist and heavily experienced enthusiasts. Pssamobates, homopus, Angulata, and chilensis are prime examples. They're kept entirely too dry and hot at a constant. Thusly leading to the expiration of the specimens. A constant dry or humid environment is again not how any tortoise/turtle should be kept.


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## HLogic (Mar 23, 2015)

I'm out, again. It seemed as if TFO had 'matured' a little since my last departure but I stand corrected. And, I know, no loss...


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## Tidgy's Dad (Mar 23, 2015)

Prairie Mom said:


> HERE HERE!!! Well said, Tidgy's Dad!!! There is not one sentence that could be improved! Thank you for eloquently voicing my own feelings far better than I ever could! I'm one of the newbies spoken of. I knew nothing about tortoises until last September. I have obsessively been learning everything I can and have gained so much knowledge from this forum and am seeing the positive results. I've also fallen carapace over claws (-couldn't resist) for some of the fun personalities I've exchanged typing with. I don't have the experience that it seems nearly EVERYONE else here has, but I've learned so much! I really enjoy the opportunity to share what has helped me, my failures and successes, and love talking torts (&love talking tort food). There have been a few posts in this argument that I suspect could make newer people like myself feel less welcome contributing or worry that our contributions are considered less valuable.
> 
> I came across this the other day and liked it enough that I thought I'd post it here...
> View attachment 123052
> ...


Deeply moved by your response. Thank you. And congrats on your prize. You must tell us what it was and share some with me!
I hope you continue to make this a super-duper forum.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Mar 23, 2015)

HLogic said:


> I'm out, again. It seemed as if TFO had 'matured' a little since my last departure but I stand corrected. And, I know, no loss...


Don't do it...just leave the argumentative threads alone and contribute to the others.


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## Jacqui (Mar 23, 2015)

HLogic said:


> I'm out, again. It seemed as if TFO had 'matured' a little since my last departure but I stand corrected. And, I know, no loss...


About twice a year we have to go through this stuff.


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## zenoandthetortoise (Mar 23, 2015)

HLogic said:


> I'm out, again. It seemed as if TFO had 'matured' a little since my last departure but I stand corrected. And, I know, no loss...



It's a bummer, isn't it? I previously vacated the forum for similar reasons and was about to again, but upon reflection it seems kind of silly to let one ranting member dictate participation. Particularly when they have failed to provide evidence or even coherence when questioned. 
I've not read many of your posts, but the ones I've read are interesting. Here's hoping you stick around. 

There's nothing wrong with the 'new Russian from Petco' contingent, nor the 'check out my cute pictures' crew. All good, all have a place. It'd also be cool if there was more technical depth for those so inclined. 

Cheers


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## Abdulla6169 (Mar 23, 2015)

Hey guys. Be calm. Remember these wise words:

"I am calmly resisting the fact you suck, 
I am not going to insult you, cause I don't give a ****. " 

Please. Just Argue. Don't try to insult or humiliate each other. Always be kind. And remember, all of this is just words typed into a keyboard.
Bye & Have a nice day, 
Abdulla

Edit- I don't mean to insult anyone or offend anyone. I just want you all to be happy and use TFO!


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## zenoandthetortoise (Mar 23, 2015)

AbdullaAli said:


> Hey guys. Be calm. Remember these wise words:
> 
> "I am calmly resisting the fact you suck,
> I am not going to insult you, cause I don't give a ****. "
> ...



Wise words. And the makings of some truly awesome t-shirts! Especially the first one.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 23, 2015)

HLogic said:


> I'm out, again. It seemed as if TFO had 'matured' a little since my last departure but I stand corrected. And, I know, no loss...



Why do you allow one or two people arguing in a thread determine whether you stay or leave the Forum? Just don't read that thread. They don't comprise the whole forum, and overall, I think we're a pretty good place to be.


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## HLogic (Mar 23, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> Why do you allow one or two people arguing in a thread determine whether you stay or leave the Forum? Just don't read that thread. They don't comprise the whole forum, and overall, I think we're a pretty good place to be.



That has little if anything to do with it Yvonne. I let that one die on the vine as I have little inclination to spend the time & effort necessary to put a cogent coherent reply to it and then convolve it to something acceptable in today's mamby pamby my feelings are hurt vernacular. I am unable to inject random claims in someone else's quotes either. I refuse to enter into a battle of wits with an unarmed person... adieu, ciao & hasta la vista!


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## wellington (Mar 23, 2015)

I agree with Yvonne. Although I think some threads could be left to stand and continue in the manner it is headed, it wouldn't really be the forum it is, if all the name calling and disrespecting of people was allowed. Seriously, we don't need a forum to learn that. We need this forum for all the people out there that have or want a tortoise and needs a place they can go to get the truth about how to really care for them. Some members do get overly passionate and that does get things stirred up, but, does that mean you should leave the forum because of a few that can't play and argue respectfully? Are you on this forum for them, or to help the tortoises and the people owning them?
Besides, like Jacqui said. This always happens twice a year. Spring and Fall, you can bet on it.


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## naturalman91 (Mar 23, 2015)

wellington said:


> This always happens twice a year. Spring and Fall, you can bet on it.



spring and fall because they're getting ready to go outside or inside and people argue about how it should be? i've been reading this thread but decided not to get into it i had to ask this question tho


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## wellington (Mar 23, 2015)

naturalman91 said:


> spring and fall because they're getting ready to go outside or inside and people argue about how it should be? i've been reading this thread but decided not to get into it i had to ask this question tho


I don't know why. I always figured spring time, because they are all sick and tired of the winter weathers, cabin fever. Fall because they are all mad about the winter weathers coming and getting cabin fever


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## Abdulla6169 (Mar 23, 2015)

wellington said:


> I don't know why. I always figured spring time, because they are all sick and tired of the winter weathers, cabin fever. Fall because they are all mad about the winter weathers coming and getting cabin fever


I think because in spring everyone talks about tortoises (since the weather becomes better), and in fall it's important to keep your tort safe in the winter...


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## Kapidolo Farms (Mar 23, 2015)

Umm, did I miss something? I just read a bunch of gobbledygook and not one mention of humidity.

I recently bought some neonate Egyptians. Their past keeper had been keeping them on a totally dry substrate (plastic box bottom). They got sun everyday, and wet food one day (fresh cut weeds) allowed to dry which was the following day's food. At an expressed one year of age they were still very small (less than 15 grams). A very sparse and dry technique.

I put them on fine orchid bark about one inch deep (with standing water about 1/8 to 1/4 inch deep under the bark, and a large pile of loose spagnhum moss that wicks water up from the bark. They are already 30% heavier in less than a month, now 22 grams each. they sleep during the day with there head pushed into the moss and at night hunkered down in the bark.

I'd say they had been chronically dehydrated. 

I have been hatching out numerous pancakes over the past year, they had all started to develop what could be seen as reverse pyramiding, each scute was depressed/impressed. The most recent hatchling, now a few month old has been kept as I describe for the Egyptians with the exception t has an all the time water tray (the egyptians get soaked daily). The pancake will spend a few hours in the water tray, with his head half of body on a small bit of slate (black and it gets hot) and with his tail body half in the water. Same diet as the others, but the shell is more 'normal looking'.

I recently got into a house with a yard, grass with weeds etc. In making some vegetable planter beds I removed some grass squares (sod more or less) and planted them in shallow planters and put them in with my adult pancakes. Its crazy how much the pancakes all of a sudden don't spend the day in their retreats, but sit on the grass in full view. They don't care that I walk by etc. I water the grass daily as the roots now only have an inch or so of soil. It's very mist on the sod. They look like cats on cardboard (if you have cats you get it, if you don't, get a cat)

So I vote for higher humidity. I think it makes a heck of a big difference.


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## mike taylor (Mar 23, 2015)

I would like the names of the experts please . Plus the school you went to and the degree or equivalent that you have to make any one person a expert . I must be naive but I thought we were all hobbyist helping each other out. With humidity you don't have to pour it on all day everyday . I let my humidity fall off later in the day . My tortoises will hide out in their little house then come back out later in the day . Don't ask me why I don't know why the temperature didn't change . My two year old sulcata has no humidifier that runs all the time . But in saying that I do have one but if I remember I fill it . One more thing in Houston Texas it is humid . What people need to do is get a starting point and try things . Tom lives in a dryer climate so he adds humidity . In Florida its a wetter climate so you may have to use dehumidifier . Nothing on this forum is in stone . Take the points that works for one person and twist and tweak it till it works for you .


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## mike taylor (Mar 23, 2015)

One more thing my reptilian friends aren't a hobby. They are more like my kids . I've been keeping reptilians for longer than I can remember . If I didn't have any I don't know what I would do . Is keeping dogs or cats a hobby? Just saying .


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## Zeko (Mar 23, 2015)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Fascinating stuff, though rather confusing for those of us without the experience to be sure which side of this discussion is likely to be correct.




This is exactly the problem with people being allowed to give their opinions without any actual understanding on the topic, or experience. @Tom has done us all a great service by making his care sheets, with PROOF of his methods working. I also have used his methods on numerous tortoises and they all continue to grow perfectly smooth, to which I have documented PROOF as well.

All I can say is do your research on the individual people giving advice. Ask to see their tortoises they raised using whatever belief, method, witchcraft, they may have. Many people here do not even raise their own tortoises. They simply adopt or look after already grown ones, which can suffer or adapt (Look up the tortoises named Lucky) through much more diverse environments than a growing hatchling or herd.

The admins (Josh specifically) have already been notified of these kinds of issues and the negative direction this forum is heading in regards to advice and care. From the sounds of it, changes are coming. Everyone's opinion has a place on this forum, however there are different sections or posts that their opinion are more relevant in.

Good luck,
Brad


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## Turtlepete (Mar 23, 2015)

Zeko said:


> This is exactly the problem with people being allowed to give their opinions without any actual understanding on the topic, or experience.



I have no interest nor patience for the amount of arguing that seems like a daily event on this forum, but the idea you seem to be presenting here is alarming. Prevention of members being "allowed" to give their opinion is just absolutely absurd. You want prevention of sharing your opinion unless you have the prerequisites deemed appropriate? Who will decide on these qualifications? If we are only going to allow sharing by "experienced" keepers then a large majority of this forum is going to be excluded from most discussions that aren't asking how cute a picture of someones tortoise is. I understand the problem of members acting as if their opinion is law when they have absolutely no real experience in the topic…It is a problem indeed and a frustrating one. But I see no reason for anything to be done as far as being "allowed" to give an opinion. The kind of forum that would put in place a rule like that is simply not one I have any desire to be a part of.

Applying common sense to advice given to you and "opinions" presented to you is an integral part of any learning process. There is always going to be the person on a podium telling everyone how things should be done without a half-*** clue what they are talking about, and unfortunately they are a part of society which we simply must deal with and go on happily with our lives. But if people don't have enough common sense to take what that person is taking with a grain of salt, then we can't expect them to ever have a firm understanding of any aspect of husbandry.

IMHO….
I suggest everyone avoid from making any thread title containing the word "expert". They seem to be the biggest bickering-fests, since certain individuals feel the need to continually redefine and challenge the meaning of "expert".


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## mike taylor (Mar 23, 2015)

Like I said on the other post . I would like the names of the experts here . The school, phd or any other thing that makes anyone person an experts here . This is a bundle of information made by different keepers. What works for one may need to be tweaked to work for you . There is no one way layed out to follow . Take the information add a little common sense and run with it .


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## Tidgy's Dad (Mar 23, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> One more thing my reptilian friends aren't a hobby. They are more like my kids . I've been keeping reptilians for longer than I can remember . If I didn't have any I don't know what I would do . Is keeping dogs or cats a hobby? Just saying .


My Tidgy IS our child, my wife and I can't have kids and though Tidge was an accidental rescue tortoise, she is a surrogate daughter to us, certainly not a hobby, (though I am not being totally anthropomorphic here, we keep her in tortoise conditions,not human ones)
As for humidity, living fairly close to her natural birth-place helps very much, we live in the seasonal variations of temperature and humidity, though I accept it is still somewhat different in the wild to her current artificial environment. 
I personally ensure she has a couple of weekly soaks, more when it's crazy hot, and showers too in high summer, as well as constant access to water of course. I think a level of humidity is necessary, but am uncertain as to the correct or exact percentage.


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## Tom (Mar 23, 2015)

ascott said:


> Where did Sulcata come into play for THIS thread ?



Hahahaaaa. This ENTIRE thread and discussion was about raising _sulcatas_ smoothly with or without humidity. The reason for continued discussion is that YOU are offering advice on a species that you have no experience with one way or another.

No need for any rudeness, insults, smart Alec comments, or any hostility at all, from anyone involved in this discussion. My preference would be for people lacking experience with any given species to not give specific advice about that species. Since this is a free country and everyone is allowed to express their opinion on this forum, I (we) can only advise readers when someone (you, in this case) has no experience with the species they are offering advice on.

When I start offering advice on manouria, Egyptian tortoises, spider tortoises or hinge backs, I invite you and everyone else to tell our readers that I have no experience with these species and have no idea what any given set of temperatures or humidity will produce for them. I also hope that when that day comes that you will be as polite and tolerant with me as I have been with you since you started doing this.

May I extend an offer to you as a demonstrate good will? I would like to give you a free sulcata hatchling, properly started and hand delivered to your door for you, so that you can raise it whatever way you think is best. I only ask that you share the whole experience here on the forum. Tell us what all the enclosure temperatures, humidity, and other parameters are and give us regular updates on the growth and health of your tortoise. If the eventual adult size and temperament of the sulcata species prevents you from doing this, I will extend the offer that you can return the tortoise to me at any time you decide it is getting too big or destructive. I offer this because I and several others here know what your results will be because we have first hand experience. We just have to show you now...


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## Tom (Mar 23, 2015)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> 1) It is not always necessary to have experience to give advice. I have never stuck my head in an oven, but I would advise anyone not to do so. Reading can give one a lot of information, I have read a lot about pre-Etruscan pottery and believe I can talk with authority on the subject but I've never actually owned any.



But wouldn't someone who had stuck their head in an oven hundreds of times, say an experienced oven repair man for example, be more qualified to give advice about the inner workings of an oven than someone who has only ever seen pictures of ovens, but never so much as even used one?

And wouldn't you want to point out that the person who had never even used or seen an oven should probably not be the one advising other new oven owners on how to use ovens that they actually have?


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## Tidgy's Dad (Mar 23, 2015)

Tom said:


> Hahahaaaa. This ENTIRE thread and discussion was about raising _sulcatas_ smoothly with or without humidity. The reason for continued discussion is that YOU are offering advice on a species that you have no experience with one way or another.
> 
> No need for any rudeness, insults, smart Alec comments, or any hostility at all, from anyone involved in this discussion. My preference would be for people lacking experience with any given species to not give specific advice about that species. Since this is a free country and everyone is allowed to express their opinion on this forum, I (we) can only advise readers when someone (you, in this case) has no experience with the species they are offering advice on.
> 
> When I start offering advice on manouria, Egyptian tortoises, spider tortoises or hinge backs, I invite you and everyone else to tell our readers that I have no experience with these species and have no idea what any given set of temperatures or humidity will produce for them. I also hope that when that day comes that you will be as polite and tolerant with me as I have been with you since you started doing this.



So what you're saying is, rightly or wrongly, that you consider Ascott's inexperience dangerous and you would be willing to 'sacrifice' a tortoise to someone you don't believe, rightly or wrongly, capable of rearing it properly, just to prove a point?




Tom said:


> May I extend an offer to you as a demonstrate good will? I would like to give you a free sulcata hatchling, properly started and hand delivered to your door for you, so that you can raise it whatever way you think is best. I only ask that you share the whole experience here on the forum. Tell us what all the enclosure temperatures, humidity, and other parameters are and give us regular updates on the growth and health of your tortoise. If the eventual adult size and temperament of the sulcata species prevents you from doing this, I will extend the offer that you can return the tortoise to me at any time you decide it is getting too big or destructive. I offer this because I and several others here know what your results will be because we have first hand experience. We just have to show you now...


But wouldn't someone who had stuck their head in an oven hundreds of times, say an experienced oven repair man for example, be more qualified to give advice about the inner workings of an oven than someone who has only ever seen pictures of ovens, but never so much as even used one?

And wouldn't you want to point out that the person who had never even used or seen an oven should probably not be the one advising other new oven owners on how to use ovens that they actually have?[/QUOTE]


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## Tom (Mar 23, 2015)

ascott said:


> Apology from me to you and to all of the newbies that will read this post.



If I were a newbie, I would greatly appreciate a thread like this one. So many times we have confused noobs come here after reading 15 websites and getting tons of conflicting info. A thread like this demonstrates first hand that many people offering advice on the internet have no idea what they are talking about. It helps people get a feel for who to listen to and who to disregard.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Mar 23, 2015)

Tom said:


> But wouldn't someone who had stuck their head in an oven hundreds of times, say an experienced oven repair man for example, be more qualified to give advice about the inner workings of an oven than someone who has only ever seen pictures of ovens, but never so much as even used one?
> 
> And wouldn't you want to point out that the person who had never even used or seen an oven should probably not be the one advising other new oven owners on how to use ovens that they actually have?


Sorry, I can't use a computer properly yet!
I think you're deliberately missing the point. I wouldn't need to ask anyone 'expert' that this action would be stupid and dangerous.
I could accurately advise people myself that it was not a good thing to do.


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## Tom (Mar 23, 2015)

ascott said:


> ...I am not on the hight humidity closed chamber wet soggy tortoise enclosure train as a cure all for a perfect shell, which in itself does not mean the tortoise as a whole is healthy--we see too many smooth looking babies deaths shared here on this forum).



No one is asserting any such thing anywhere on this forum.

Further, the dying and dead smooth looking babies are dying from a lack of humidity and hydration, which is what we are trying to combat here, and what you appear to be promoting here.


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## Zeko (Mar 23, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> Like I said on the other post . I would like the names of the experts here . The school, phd or any other thing that makes anyone person an experts here . This is a bundle of information made by different keepers. What works for one may need to be tweaked to work for you . There is no one way layed out to follow . Take the information add a little common sense and run with it .



There is a time and place for people's uneducated opinions. It however, is not in a topic where a tortoises' future is at stake. When a person asks how or what the best way to raise a healthy, smooth tortoise is, I expect only people with knowledge and first hand experience to give such advice.

It is rather bewildering to think that people are here for anything other than the wellbeing of people's tortoises. And it's a further shame to have people back up and support these such people.

On any other forum, these people are called "trolls" and dealt with accordingly. However, with these moderators, we can't even call out a troll when we see one. If we do, our posts are removed and the person is allowed to continue trolling. Bad for us, horrible for the tortoise we are trying to help.


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## Tom (Mar 23, 2015)

ascott said:


> ...what solid proof, research, documents do you have in your possession to show that this is the best way to assure a healthy tortoise...and I don't mean the information in the last couple of years....and even more narrowed down---not the information here from the last couple of years....I mea out in the real world?



Why would you disregard the results of hundreds or thousands of "real world" people and dismiss those facts? I assure you that my tortoises and everyone's tortoises on this forum are part of the "real world".

The whole world is full of obvious and overwhelming evidence of raising any species of tortoises in any multitude of ways.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Mar 23, 2015)

Tom said:


> May I extend an offer to you as a demonstrate good will? I would like to give you a free sulcata hatchling, properly started and hand delivered to your door for you, so that you can raise it whatever way you think is best. I only ask that you share the whole experience here on the forum. Tell us what all the enclosure temperatures, humidity, and other parameters are and give us regular updates on the growth and health of your tortoise. If the eventual adult size and temperament of the sulcata species prevents you from doing this, I will extend the offer that you can return the tortoise to me at any time you decide it is getting too big or destructive. I offer this because I and several others here know what your results will be because we have first hand experience. We just have to show you now...



So what you're saying is you believe that you are right and the other person is wrong? Fine. That's opinion.
But you are willing to ' sacrifice' a baby tortoise to prove your point? That's wrong, in my opinion.


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## Zeko (Mar 23, 2015)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> So what you're saying is you believe that you are right and the other person is wrong? Fine. That's opinion.
> But you are willing to ' sacrifice' a baby tortoise to prove your point? That's wrong, in my opinion.



This is exactly the point. Each time we let these people with no experience or knowledge on the topic offer horrible advice, we are essentially sacrificing the original posters tortoise.

Imagine if someone told you the way to fix a water damaged cellphone was to put it in the microwave. This will get rid of the water and jumpstart the phone. And when you go to refute this statement, your post gets removed and this horrible information is left for others to read and potentially follow.


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## wellington (Mar 23, 2015)

Tom said:


> But wouldn't someone who had stuck their head in an oven hundreds of times, say an experienced oven repair man for example, be more qualified to give advice about the inner workings of an oven than someone who has only ever seen pictures of ovens, but never so much as even used one?
> 
> And wouldn't you want to point out that the person who had never even used or seen an oven should probably not be the one advising other new oven owners on how to use ovens that they actually have?



Now that Tom, could stop many of us from passing on your info. What is the difference? Like I have tried to say a million times, no, you don't need the experience first hand, as long as you are passing along info that is from an experienced person. Either pass on your own experiences and show up proof, or pass on the info of the experienced ones makng it clear it is their info.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Mar 23, 2015)

Zeko said:


> This is exactly the point. Each time we let these people with no experience or knowledge on the topic offer horrible advice, we are essentially sacrificing the original posters tortoise.
> 
> Imagine if someone told you the way to fix a water damaged cellphone was to put it in the microwave. This will get rid of the water and jumpstart the phone. And when you go to refute this statement, your post gets removed and this horrible information is left for others to read and potentially follow.


But your information may not be better. you've just proved it.
I have an industrial microwave oven and if I do what you suggest, I can guarantee it will destroy my phone. your information about me was not complete.


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## wellington (Mar 23, 2015)

Zeko said:


> There is a time and place for people's uneducated opinions. It however, is not in a topic where a tortoises' future is at stake. When a person asks how or what the best way to raise a healthy, smooth tortoise is, I expect only people with knowledge and first hand experience to give such advice.
> 
> It is rather bewildering to think that people are here for anything other than the wellbeing of people's tortoises. And it's a further shame to have people back up and support these such people.
> 
> On any other forum, these people are called "trolls" and dealt with accordingly. However, with these moderators, we can't even call out a troll when we see one. If we do, our posts are removed and the person is allowed to continue trolling. Bad for us, horrible for the tortoise we are trying to help.



An active member of the forum is not considered a troll. Because someone has a different opinion does not make them a troll. Yes, it would be nice for proof to back up their opinion, whether it's their proof or that of another. I also don't agree with only so called experts can pass along info. As I stated already, any member can and should pass along the hot and humid way for at least leopards and Sulcata's. (Picked per subject of thread) The proof is below in my post. While doing so, be sure to let it be known, it's not your info or experience, but it's Toms, or whomever it may be. This is the way it is passed along. If we did not pass(parrot as some like to say)it along, there would not be very many tortoises being raised hot and humid. Tom can't answer every single thread or posting.


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## Zeko (Mar 23, 2015)

wellington said:


> Now that Tom, could stop many of us from passing on your info. What is the difference? Like I have tried to say a million times, no, you don't need the experience first hand, as long as you are passing along info that is from an experienced person. Either pass on your own experiences and show up proof, or pass on the info of the experienced ones makng it clear it is their info.



You are agreeing with what we are trying to show and change. People need to be held accountable for the information they share or spread. The original post has someone asking if humidity or no humidity produces smoother, healthier tortoises. 

A troll comes into that thread, and says humidity is bad, kills tortoises, and should never happen. The OP and several others mention they are now confused by the conflicting information. Tom and I post how this troll has no experience on the topic, and is spreading horrible information. Our posts get removed/deleted, and the trolls opinion is allowed to stand, with the potential of many people reading it and taking it as accurate, solid advice.

This is the very problem with this forum. Censorship when it comes to pointing out the lack of knowledge of a person on the topic, removal or deletion of posts, and the spreading of the very thing we are all trying to fix: Old, outdated, horrible advice.


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## wellington (Mar 23, 2015)

Everyone needs to be sure to follow the advice of those that offer proof. It's really that simple. This is the internet. This is a forum with many, many threads and post about every subject you can think of. Do some research on here and you should, in a short time, be able to figure out who or what info should be followed.


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## Zeko (Mar 23, 2015)

wellington said:


> An active member of the forum is not considered a troll. Because someone has a different opinion does not make them a troll. Yes, it would be nice for proof to back up their opinion, whether it's their proof or that of another. I also don't agree with only so called experts can pass along info. As I stated already, any member can and should pass along the hot and humid way for at least leopards and Sulcata's. (Picked per subject of thread) The proof is below in my post. While doing so, be sure to let it be known, it's not your info or experience, but it's Toms, or whomever it may be. This is the way it is passed along. If we did not pass(parrot as some like to say)it along, there would not be very many tortoises being raised hot and humid. Tom can't answer every single thread or posting.



An active member who makes posts with no understanding on the topic, who causes harm to others (in this case, the tortoise/person asking for advice) is a troll.

There is no way around that.


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## Zeko (Mar 23, 2015)

wellington said:


> Everyone needs to be sure to follow the advice of those that offer proof. It's really that simple. This is the internet. This is a forum with many, many threads and post about every subject you can think of. Do some research on here and you should, in a short time, be able to figure out who or what info should be followed.



Yes. And new members who come to this site for solid advice, typically ask or search for advice. They end up with good advice and bad advice. However, pointing out the experience level of a person, their knowledge, or their understanding on the topic is apparently reason to censor, delete, or remove that post.

Tell me who will suffer if this continues to happen?


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## wellington (Mar 23, 2015)

Zeko said:


> You are agreeing with what we are trying to show and change. People need to be held accountable for the information they share or spread. The original post has someone asking if humidity or no humidity produces smoother, healthier tortoises.
> 
> A troll comes into that thread, and says humidity is bad, kills tortoises, and should never happen. The OP and several others mention they are now confused by the conflicting information. Tom and I post how this troll has no experience on the topic, and is spreading horrible information. Our posts get removed/deleted, and the trolls opinion is allowed to stand, with the potential of many people reading it and taking it as accurate, solid advice.
> 
> This is the very problem with this forum. Censorship when it comes to pointing out the lack of knowledge of a person on the topic, removal or deletion of posts, and the spreading of the very thing we are all trying to fix: Old, outdated, horrible advice.



Yes, I do agree with you. I get it. However, there is a way to say things and if you do it in an offensive or disrespectful way to one of our members, then it's not tolerated. The three main member s arguing are just that, members. There is no troll on this thread. If there were a real troll, they would have been banned. Someone with a different opinion, whether they have proof or not or just an opinion, is allowed to voice their opinions whether we like it or not. This is why people have to use their heads and look for proof, and not just take their word for it.


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## Tom (Mar 23, 2015)

Turtlepete said:


> I have no interest nor patience for the amount of arguing that seems like a daily event on this forum, but the idea you seem to be presenting here is alarming. Prevention of members being "allowed" to give their opinion is just absolutely absurd. You want prevention of sharing your opinion unless you have the prerequisites deemed appropriate? Who will decide on these qualifications? If we are only going to allow sharing by "experienced" keepers then a large majority of this forum is going to be excluded from most discussions that aren't asking how cute a picture of someones tortoise is. I understand the problem of members acting as if their opinion is law when they have absolutely no real experience in the topic…It is a problem indeed and a frustrating one. But I see no reason for anything to be done as far as being "allowed" to give an opinion. The kind of forum that would put in place a rule like that is simply not one I have any desire to be a part of.
> 
> Applying common sense to advice given to you and "opinions" presented to you is an integral part of any learning process. There is always going to be the person on a podium telling everyone how things should be done without a half-*** clue what they are talking about, and unfortunately they are a part of society which we simply must deal with and go on happily with our lives. But if people don't have enough common sense to take what that person is taking with a grain of salt, then we can't expect them to ever have a firm understanding of any aspect of husbandry.
> 
> ...




You make good points here Pete.

On paragraph one: You are completely right about this, but I think you are missing Zeko's point. He's not saying that only the "Chosen Ones" should be allowed to express an opinion. I think he's saying that people with no experience on a subject should have the sense to not offer specific advice on that subject. Zeko, please correct me if I'm wrong.

On paragraph 2: The problem here is that many of these "podium speakers" make a very convincing speech, and many noobs have recently been expressing confusion about who to listen to. YOU know who to listen to, and I know who to listen to, but how does a brand new person figure this out? I come on and give my spiel, and then Ascott follows up with all sorts of dire predictions and believable sounding points, and how does the new person know who to believe? Someone has to say something and a discussion like this one needs to be had.

On paragraph 3: I agree. I don't know what defines an "expert", or who decides. I don't consider myself one, but there appear to be some people who think I consider myself one. When it comes down to two people arguing a single point from opposite side, I do think there is value in each person explaining what they are basing their assertions on. When I say "humid and hydrated", I have a lot of past experience to back up what I say and lots of photos to prove it. When someone like Ascott makes her assertions with absolutely no experience either way to back it up, I think attention needs to be given to that fact. Would you agree?


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## Zeko (Mar 23, 2015)

wellington said:


> Yes, I do agree with you. I get it. However, there is a way to say things and if you do it in an offensive or disrespectful way to one of our members, then it's not tolerated. The three main member s arguing are just that, members. There is no troll on this thread. If there were a real troll, they would have been banned. Someone with a different opinion, whether they have proof or not or just an opinion, is allowed to voice their opinions whether we like it or not. This is why people have to use their heads and look for proof, and not just take their word for it.




The point we are making is: Everyone has an opinion, everyone is allowed to voice their opinion. HOWEVER, bad opinions are still bad and we should be allowed to make this clear. And ANY OTHER forum, where someone asked for an expert (this is someone with first hand experience, or knowledge) and gets posts such as the ones from this Troll, would be removed in an instant from that thread and a PM sent to be careful in the future.

If you allow such posts to continue, you are no better than the Petco down the street. We all seem to bash and shame them, but yet when a Troll posts the same "opinion" on here, it is allowed and apparently even backed by some people.

Once again I ask: Who suffers the most from allowing this to continue? What is the reason us "experts" take time to help others? Do you want us to stop helping?


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## Zeko (Mar 23, 2015)

wellington said:


> Everyone needs to be sure to follow the advice of those that offer proof. It's really that simple. This is the internet. This is a forum with many, many threads and post about every subject you can think of. Do some research on here and you should, in a short time, be able to figure out who or what info should be followed.



You are 100% correct. This is the internet. People have nothing to base knowledge, experience or expertise on other than what others say about them, or they show themselves.

Do you think a new person coming here knows the difference between Tom and a Troll, and who to listen to? I doubt it. How can they research and figure out who is better? They both have lots of posts, likes and mentions. However one is clearly more qualified than the other on Sulcata's. Maybe over the course of a year or more, this person will learn who to listen to. However, in that year, their tortoise may continue to live in a dire situation, when it could have so easily been prevented.

If we are not allowed to point this out or ask for proof, then the new people are stuck scratching their heads in confusion. And if you look at the original thread, more than one new person mentioned they were confused and did not know who to follow. I guess they better research more and look into their crystal ball.


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## Tom (Mar 23, 2015)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Sorry, I can't use a computer properly yet!
> I think you're deliberately missing the point. I wouldn't need to ask anyone 'expert' that this action would be stupid and dangerous.
> I could accurately advise people myself that it was not a good thing to do.



Civil, friendly conversational tone here...

I'm not missing the point at all. We all _know_ not to stick our heads in the oven, and likewise, in the same way, I _know_ not to raise baby sulcatas in dry desiccating habitats, yet that is what is being argued here. Because that is what's being argued here, the qualifications of the arguers are being called in to question. Some of the arguers have raised several, or several hundred sulcatas in a variety of ways, while one of the arguers has never raised a single sulcata at all. I think the people who have done it a bunch ought to be thanked for sharing their experience, while the person who has never done it should not be giving advice on this subject at all.


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## Zeko (Mar 23, 2015)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> But your information may not be better. you've just proved it.
> I have an industrial microwave oven and if I do what you suggest, I can guarantee it will destroy my phone. your information about me was not complete.



Exactly. See how you just pointed that out?

Tom and I did that same thing and our posts were removed and put into the "off topic" section, or deleted. Now imagine if this was a cellphone forum and I posted to put your phone in the microwave to fix water damage. Other people with knowledge corrected me, only to have their posts removed, and mine to stay. Do you think a few people over the course of time would search, see my post, follow my post and wreck their phone? You bet.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/19/microwave-iphone_n_5850576.html

Have a read.

Common sense is not all that common. And you know what assuming does, right?


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## wellington (Mar 23, 2015)

Zeko said:


> You are 100% correct. This is the internet. People have nothing to base knowledge, experience or expertise on other than what others say about them, or they show themselves.
> 
> Do you think a new person coming here knows the difference between Tom and a Troll, and who to listen to? I doubt it. How can they research and figure out who is better? They both have lots of posts, likes and mentions. However one is clearly more qualified than the other on Sulcata's. Maybe over the course of a year or more, this person will learn who to listen to. However, in that year, their tortoise may continue to live in a dire situation, when it could have so easily been prevented.
> 
> If we are not allowed to point this out or ask for proof, then the new people are stuck scratching their heads in confusion. And if you look at the original thread, more than one new person mentioned they were confused and did not know who to follow. I guess they better research more and look into their crystal ball.





Zeko said:


> The point we are making is: Everyone has an opinion, everyone is allowed to voice their opinion. HOWEVER, bad opinions are still bad and we should be allowed to make this clear. And ANY OTHER forum, where someone asked for an expert (this is someone with first hand experience, or knowledge) and gets posts such as the ones from this Troll, would be removed in an instant from that thread and a PM sent to be careful in the future.
> 
> If you allow such posts to continue, you are no better than the Petco down the street. We all seem to bash and shame them, but yet when a Troll posts the same "opinion" on here, it is allowed and apparently even backed by some people.
> 
> Once again I ask: Who suffers the most from allowing this to continue? What is the reason us "experts" take time to help others? Do you want us to stop helping?




All opinions are allowed, good or bad. Whose opinion do we believe that it's a bad opinion? Who is that one "boss" that calls the shots of who is right and who is wrong? Tom thinks he is right, so do many of us. Ascott thinks she is right and there may be those that agree with her, I don't know. You can ask them for proof, you can call them out on their experience, you do need though to do it and stay on topic of the thread, or make a new thread and call that person out on that thread, but you have to do it respectfully.

If the newbie spends just a little time on this forum, doing a little research, they will get the info you are trying to get through to them. There are so many of us that passes on "Toms" way. That is why I feel it's important for members to "parrot" Toms info, but don't treat it as their own.

Besides, it's looking like this whole argument may have start because someone opened their mouth posting, not realizing the original thread was about Sulcatas.

Btw, this forum has one Boss and that is Josh. The moderators DO NOT make the rules, we only enforce them. We do the best we can and sometimes that gets hard, like the thread this all started from. Every one of us tries to be fair. Sometimes we ask the other mods, in order to be fair. Some times, we don't know where to delete, edit or close a thread, because we don't always agree either and no matter what we do, someone will blame us for something. We try our hardest to warn members to stay on track so we don't have to moderate the thread, usually we are ignored and the rule breaking continues and we are forced to act.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Mar 23, 2015)

Tom said:


> Civil, friendly conversational tone here...
> 
> I'm not missing the point at all. We all _know_ not to stick our heads in the oven, and likewise, in the same way, I _know_ not to raise baby sulcatas in dry desiccating habitats, yet that is what is being argued here. Because that is what's being argued here, the qualifications of the arguers are being called in to question. Some of the arguers have raised several, or several hundred sulcatas in a variety of ways, while one of the arguers has never raised a single sulcata at all. I think the people who have done it a bunch ought to be thanked for sharing their experience, while the person who has never done it should not be giving advice on this subject at all.


I'm sorry if I came across badly there, Tom, i didn't mean to be rude, but it felt that way to me.
Thank you for the hundreds of informative, helpful and interesting points that you have posted on here and that i have read and, hopefully, learned something from. But sometimes you do come over as a tad aggressive and arrogant, in my opinion. I'm sure you're
not, but it does seem that way to me.
It is possible for someone to offer advice on sulcatas having read your and other peoples information on this and other internet sites.
Sometimes, it may even be necessary to do so, you cannot answer every thread 24 hours a day on every site on the net or in pet shops etc.
But I do agree that the person offering the advice should at least say 'i have heard', or whatever.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 23, 2015)

You just have to be careful how you contradict a post. You can't come right out and say that poster is a jerk and you can't believe a word they say. You have to figure out a kind way to disprove what they've said. If you attack, your post gets removed. As simple as that.


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## Zeko (Mar 23, 2015)

wellington said:


> All opinions are allowed, good or bad. Whose opinion do we believe that it's a bad opinion? Who is that one "boss" that calls the shots of who is right and who is wrong? Tom thinks he is right, so do many of us. Ascott thinks she is right and there may be those that agree with her, I don't know. You can ask them for proof, you can call them out on their experience, you do need though to do it and stay on topic of the thread, or make a new thread and call that person out on that thread, but you have to do it respectfully.
> 
> If the newbie spends just a little time on this forum, doing a little research, they will get the info you are trying to get through to them. There are so many of us that passes on "Toms" way. That is why I feel it's important for members to "parrot" Toms info, but don't treat it as their own.
> 
> ...



Wellington,

You should review the original thread, and see the original initial posts the other admin removed.

We called her out (which as you said is fine, as long as done properly), which Tom and I did. Guess where those posts went? 

That is the very point of this. We need to be able to call people out on what they say (respectfully), in order to ensure misinformation is not spread.

Censorship, removal and deletion is not okay, especially when the content was done so in a proper way.


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## Zeko (Mar 23, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> You just have to be careful how you contradict a post. You can't come right out and say that poster is a jerk and you can't believe a word they say. You have to figure out a kind way to disprove what they've said. If you attack, your post gets removed. As simple as that.



Tom and I's original "contradicting" posts were more than fair and respectful. That is the exact problem. They were removed and cited with:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/Experts:-Humid-vs.-Dry.114612/#post-1065511

Now Wellington is saying it can be done, if done in a proper way. So we are slowly making progress here with the admins. And ultimately it will only help the new people and their tortoises.

We are also already in discussion with Josh in regards to some changes we feel are needed. So we will see what comes of that.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 23, 2015)

I didn't see the original thread or posts, so I can't talk specifically about them, but here's an example. I, an expert in my field, say that my leather gloves will last longer if I use product XYZ to keep them supple. Susie Cream Cheese comes along and says that she has never used a product on her leather gloves and they've lasted a very long time. I have posted many pictures and threads showing my leather gloves and how beautifully they are aging, while Susie has never shown any pictures or offered any proof that not using a product is good for the gloves. So I post that Susie is just plain weird for not using a product, and she's shortening the life of her gloves, and no one should pay any attention to her. My post will quickly be removed. But if I had offered my pictures again as proof, and asked Susie to please show us her gloves and let us know where she bought them and when, and been a bit more diplomatic in disproving her premise, the post would have been allowed.


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## Zeko (Mar 23, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> I didn't see the original thread or posts, so I can't talk specifically about them, but here's an example. I, an expert in my field, say that my leather gloves will last longer if I use product XYZ to keep them supple. Susie Cream Cheese comes along and says that she has never used a product on her leather gloves and they've lasted a very long time. I have posted many pictures and threads showing my leather gloves and how beautifully they are aging, while Susie has never shown any pictures or offered any proof that not using a product is good for the gloves. So I post that Susie is just plain weird for not using a product, and she's shortening the life of her gloves, and no one should pay any attention to her. My post will quickly be removed. But if I had offered my pictures again as proof, and asked Susie to please show us her gloves and let us know where she bought them and when, and been a bit more diplomatic in disproving her premise, the post would have been allowed.



We understand fully. I think you should read the original thread.


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## mike taylor (Mar 23, 2015)

Zeko said:


> There is a time and place for people's uneducated opinions. It however, is not in a topic where a tortoises' future is at stake. When a person asks how or what the best way to raise a healthy, smooth tortoise is, I expect only people with knowledge and first hand experience to give such advice.
> 
> It is rather bewildering to think that people are here for anything other than the wellbeing of people's tortoises. And it's a further shame to have people back up and support these such people.
> 
> On any other forum, these people are called "trolls" and dealt with accordingly. However, with these moderators, we can't even call out a troll when we see one. If we do, our posts are removed and the person is allowed to continue trolling. Bad for us, horrible for the tortoise we are trying to help.


Are you saying I don't know what I'm talking about? I have three sulcatas all healthy . Two leopards all healthy . My humidity isn't constant . I think the big point missing here is understanding micro climates. If it's to hot or dry they go down hole or under a bush . What do you think the humidity is top side or out in the open? To have humidity stay the same all over is going to work no problem Tom has provided us with great info . But in Texas you don't have to do that . I'm not one to argue . I like keeping things simple why fight temperature and humidity if you already have humidity . People need to understand things have to be tweaked . It's not in stone to do things one way . Tom even tells you this . By the way thanks Tom, Kelly,ken, and Yvonne . These are the people I turn to .


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## wellington (Mar 23, 2015)

Excellent example Yvonne. Thank you for clarifing.
It really is that simple guys. 

I too didn't see the original threads until after it had been modified.


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## mike taylor (Mar 23, 2015)

Doesn't this look like it's working! It's a little Tom and common sense . You have to try different stuff to make it work for you . Have fun arguing I'm going back to chat to pick on Newt Swinger.


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## Turtlepete (Mar 23, 2015)

If that was the intent of his post, that "people with no experience on a subject should have the sense to not offer specific advice on that subject", then I absolutely agree and it is quite sensible. Unfortunately, in the real world, this will simply not happen. Again, these individuals will always be present in our society. I understand it gets very difficult to decide what to do in situations where members should absolutely challenge assertions made by inexperienced persons, but in every case I have witnessed this has turned into a downward spiral of cursing, name-calling and general hurt feelings across the board. Humans are a species that can seldom discuss opposing points without hurt feelings. The best situation I can see is where the members challenging assertions made by others have the sense not to allow a confrontational or aggressive tone to enter their post, and _are allowed to do so_. The kind of censorship that goes on around here is detrimental to the integrity of information offered here, and in the end creates a confusing environment for anyone new to tortoise keeping which is the last thing we should seek to achieve. However, I understand from the moderator's point of view just how hard it is to decide what to let stay and what to remove, and where to draw the line. A very real problem that is very difficult to decide how to solve...


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## Zeko (Mar 23, 2015)

Turtlepete said:


> If that was the intent of his post, that "people with no experience on a subject should have the sense to not offer specific advice on that subject", then I absolutely agree and it is quite sensible. Unfortunately, in the real world, this will simply not happen. Again, these individuals will always be present in our society. I understand it gets very difficult to decide what to do in situations where members should absolutely challenge assertions made by inexperienced persons, but in every case I have witnessed this has turned into a downward spiral of cursing, name-calling and general hurt feelings across the board. Humans are a species that can seldom discuss opposing points without hurt feelings. The best situation I can see is where the members challenging assertions made by others have the sense not to allow a confrontational or aggressive tone to enter their post, and _are allowed to do so_. The kind of censorship that goes on around here is detrimental to the integrity of information offered here, and in the end creates a confusing environment for anyone new to tortoise keeping which is the last thing we should seek to achieve. However, I understand from the moderator's point of view just how hard it is to decide what to let stay and what to remove, and where to draw the line. A very real problem that is very difficult to decide how to solve...




Spot on. And that is why we are spending our time discussing this. In hopes the moderators can become a bit more flexible in their censorship, and in return we will try harder to present our opposition in a respectful way.

If I didn't see hope out of all of this, I wouldn't waste my time. Im sure other people posting here must feel the same way.


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## wellington (Mar 23, 2015)

Zeko said:


> Spot on. And that is why we are spending our time discussing this. In hopes the moderators can become a bit more flexible in their censorship, and in return we will try harder to present our opposition in a respectful way.
> 
> If I didn't see hope out of all of this, I wouldn't waste my time. Im sure other people posting here must feel the same way.



With all due respect, this isn't our first rodeo, nor is it the arguing members. We have preached this many times before. Unfortunately, it is not the moderators that needs to become more flexible as much as it's the members that need to understand the rules and not go outside of them. Yes, there is always room for improvements, but this pertains to members and moderators.


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## CharlieM (Mar 23, 2015)

wellington said:


> That is why I feel it's important for members to "parrot" Toms info, but don't treat it as their own.



With all respect could you please explain how this works?


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## wellington (Mar 23, 2015)

CharlieM said:


> With all respect could you please explain how this works?



Sure, I refer people with leopards and sullies to please read Toms threads located at the bottom of my post. I will also tell them about the proper temps and humidity and then refer them to atoms threads. Also, Toms threads are always in my signature. I will parrot his information/knowledge but will not try to come off as if it's my experience.


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## CharlieM (Mar 23, 2015)

And you feel this "parroting" is as effective as Tom answering a post or a member searching on their own?


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## wellington (Mar 23, 2015)

CharlieM said:


> And you feel this "parroting" is as effective as Tom answering a post or a member searching on their own?
> Do you think members respect parroted information?


Well they would be pretty stupid if they didn't as there are a lot of members that would not know of Toms experience without the many members that pass it on. If you don't like or respect it, then don't you dare ever pass on any information that you have heard or read, that's the same thing. Everyone almost daily does it. What's wrong with it? Tom is one person who has a life, a busy one at that. How many threads do you think he could answer in a day, week? No where near the amount that the members parroting his info can!


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## CharlieM (Mar 23, 2015)

wellington said:


> Well they would be pretty stupid if they didn't as there are a lot of members that would not know of Toms experience without the many members that pass it on. If you don't like or respect it, then don't you dare ever pass on any information that you have heard or read, that's the same thing. Everyone almost daily does it. What's wrong with it? Tom is one person who has a life, a busy one at that. How many threads do you think he could answer in a day, week? No where near the amount that the members parroting his info can!



I'm not saying he's right or wrong I just find it very curious. That's all.


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## Team Gomberg (Mar 23, 2015)

Parroting another's info points someone in what you think is the right direction. Sometimes other people can explain things better, have more detailed info or is a teacher you've learned from.
In this case, Tom has spelled out a lot of information in those past posts and it's still good, useful info. Why not share that?

I do my best to share my personal experiences and relevant opinions. But I will occasionally refer a member with a question to another member where I feel they would benefit from hearing the other person's answers. That's a good thing, not bad.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Mar 23, 2015)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> But I do agree that the person offering the advice should at least say 'i have heard', or whatever.


Just this morning, with a different tortoise group, I did just that. The original emailer had feeding questions. Although I had no direct experience with the advice given, I have heard it from many sources that the advice works. Logic dictates that it would work, so I echoed the information while stating I had no direct experience with the subject. It was easy. Here is the series.

“We recently got a baby sulcata from a pet store. He actually came to them by accident and they didn't know much. They had been feeding him only romaine lettuce while they had him and now I can't get him to eat anything else. I'm not sure of his age but he is only about 3" right now. I have tried several other food options but he just won't touch it. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you,
Gloria" (changed name)
“Greetings Gloria,
Although I've no direct experience in this regard, folks I know in similar situations as yourself have stated that the easiest way to change over to a healthy diet is to take the food item they like, (romain) and chop it very fine with the proper foods, (broad leaf weeds, grasses) and make a mixture. Start with a romain heavy mix, and gradually switch to a healthy heavy mix. Make everything chopped fine enough and mixed enough that the little guy can't pick and choose what he wants. Soon the switch will be complete, and you will be on your way to a healthy, happy tortoise. Remember, no fruits.

Cowboy Ken"


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## wellington (Mar 23, 2015)

CharlieM said:


> I'm not saying he's right or wrong I just find it very curious. That's all.



She's,right or wrong. I know, the name wellington throws people off


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## wellington (Mar 23, 2015)

Cowboy_Ken said:


> Just this morning, with a different tortoise group, I did just that. The original emailer had feeding questions. Although I had no direct experience with the advice given, I have heard it from many sources that the advice works. Logic dictates that it would work, so I echoed the information while stating I had no direct experience with the subject. It was easy. Here is the series.
> 
> “We recently got a baby sulcata from a pet store. He actually came to them by accident and they didn't know much. They had been feeding him only romaine lettuce while they had him and now I can't get him to eat anything else. I'm not sure of his age but he is only about 3" right now. I have tried several other food options but he just won't touch it. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you,
> Gloria" (changed name)
> ...



Exactly. Just because one doesn't have the first hand experience, doesn't mean they haven't learned enough to still give advice.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Mar 23, 2015)

wellington said:


> She's


Guess I've known you too long. A man named Wellington would trip me up.


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## CharlieM (Mar 23, 2015)

wellington said:


> She's,right or wrong. I know, the name wellington throws people off


Ummm, not thrown off at all.. I was referring to @Tom not you. And the name barb is pretty clear.


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## Team Gomberg (Mar 23, 2015)

Barb, you're in my contact list as Barb Wellington! I thought it was your last name till you told me it was a street name haha


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## wellington (Mar 23, 2015)

CharlieM said:


> Ummm, not thrown off at all.. I was referring to @Tom not you. And the name barb is pretty clear.


You would be surprised how not clear the name Barb is, isn't?


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## cmacusa3 (Mar 23, 2015)

Wow, This thread was not easy to read on my iPhone but I finally made it through the thing. Let me first say that I see valid points from every side here. I have been in combat zones and have taken advice from people that weren't experts but I could tell when to trust someone and when I personally felt like someone didn't have a clue what they were talking about and for my safety not listen to them. Now to what I have experienced on this forum, I have always had a love for turtles and have kept them since I was a kid (long time ago), So when my little girl brought home our first Sulcata I didn't know where to start with the little guy so I took the advice of the reptile store and 2 months later the little guy passed, that pushed me to research more and figure out what happened and what I should do better and that's when I found this forum. I made a few posts and read all I could before getting another. The day came when I decided to get another and I felt like I knew who's advice to trust on this board and have went that route and can"t believe the difference it has made. My Sulcata has went from 50 grams to over 200 in just a few months and has already outgrown my boxies. The biggest problems I have with anyone giving advice on this forum is 1. newbies doing it, you can look at when they joined and when someone has only been on this site for a few months they shouldn't be giving advice. 2. If you don't own that type of tort don't get involved with telling someone what they should be doing. 3. The manner in which advice is given, to many times a few members that I wouldn't consider the "experts" can be really harsh on newbies. 4. I don't think anyone under the age of 30 should be giving advice unless they have some kind of degree or background because they just don't have the true experience that other long time keepers do. Just because someone has posted on here 2000 times doesn't mean they should be giving advice. Personally I look at what Tom and Yvonne and a few other older keepers have posted and follow some of those guidelines, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at the pics of their enclosures, and torts to draw a conclusion they know what they are talking about. This forum is amazing and I have passed it on to several others that have changed the care of their torts too. Ok that's enough, off my box, my phone is about to die.


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## Tom (Mar 23, 2015)

wellington said:


> Everyone needs to be sure to follow the advice of those that offer proof. It's really that simple. This is the internet. This is a forum with many, many threads and post about every subject you can think of. Do some research on here and you should, in a short time, be able to figure out who or what info should be followed.



This is true Barb, but the problem is exactly what Zeko pointed out in post #71 above yours. My info explaining that Ascott's advice is based on zero experience is deleted (Its returned now, so thank you to the responsible parties.), but Ascott's bad (in my opinion) info now stands unchallenged to anyone who opens the thread and reads it. I did not insult or attack her. I simply and politely pointed out to anyone reading that she has no experience at all with sulcatas, so that people may read her posts about how to care for sulcatas with a more enlightened mind set.

If people don't want their credibility questioned, then they should not give advice. Plain and simple. My credibility has been called into question how many times by how many people? A lot. I back up my assertions with facts and photos and lengthy explanation of my experiences and results. I see no reason why any other advice giver cannot be asked to do the same in a polite, non-insulting way. A simple, "Hey Ascott, what do you base all this sulcata hatchling advice on?", should be a permissible question that does not get deleted, in my opinion.


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## Tom (Mar 23, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> You just have to be careful how you contradict a post. You can't come right out and say that poster is a jerk and you can't believe a word they say. You have to figure out a kind way to disprove what they've said. If you attack, your post gets removed. As simple as that.



Was my post pointing out that Ascott had never raised a single sulcata an attack? I took great care to avoid name calling, defamation, or be insulting in any way. I simply stated the facts. I don't mean this as a rhetorical question. I'm really asking if what I typed is viewed as an "attack".

As I said in an earlier post, I invite everyone to do the same to me when I start given specific advice about how to care for species I've never even seen.


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## Tom (Mar 23, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> I didn't see the original thread or posts, so I can't talk specifically about them, but here's an example. I, an expert in my field, say that my leather gloves will last longer if I use product XYZ to keep them supple. Susie Cream Cheese comes along and says that she has never used a product on her leather gloves and they've lasted a very long time. I have posted many pictures and threads showing my leather gloves and how beautifully they are aging, while Susie has never shown any pictures or offered any proof that not using a product is good for the gloves. So I post that Susie is just plain weird for not using a product, and she's shortening the life of her gloves, and no one should pay any attention to her. My post will quickly be removed. But if I had offered my pictures again as proof, and asked Susie to please show us her gloves and let us know where she bought them and when, and been a bit more diplomatic in disproving her premise, the post would have been allowed.



What if I plainly point out that Susie Cream Cheese does not now, and has not ever owned a pair of leather gloves, and is actually talking about her rubber gloves? Is that allowed?

What if I explained that the advice Susie is offering is not based on any experience or proven results because Susie has never owned a pair of leather gloves? Okay?

Further, what if I did this because I know for a fact that what Susie is offering as advice is detrimental to leather gloves, and I know this because I treated my leather gloves the same way she is advising prior to discovering, testing and proving hundreds of times over that this newer method of glove treatment simply works better? In other words, I'm trying to save people from having to learn what I have learned the hard way, at their gloves expense. Am I to stand by quietly and politely while Susie offers advice that I know will damage the readers leather gloves?


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## zenoandthetortoise (Mar 23, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> You just have to be careful how you contradict a post. You can't come right out and say that poster is a jerk and you can't believe a word they say. You have to figure out a kind way to disprove what they've said. If you attack, your post gets removed. As simple as that.



Reread my posts with Ascott. I'm a (wannabe) sulcata newbie and not only was she less than forthcoming about her lack of expertise, she was rude and condescending at every opportunity. Somehow, her posts weren't removed even though they were insulting and conveyed zero information. Why is it that her ramblings are immune from moderating but Tom, et al have their posts removed? Pointing out someone doesn't have any firsthand knowledge is not an insult, it's a statement of fact. Corroborated in this case, by Ascott herself.


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## Zeko (Mar 23, 2015)

zenoandthetortoise said:


> Reread my posts with Ascott. I'm a (wannabe) sulcata newbie and not only was she less than forthcoming about her lack of expertise, she was rude and condescending at every opportunity. Somehow, her posts weren't removed even though they were insulting and conveyed zero information. Why is it that her ramblings are immune from moderating but Tom, et al have their posts removed? Pointing out someone doesn't have any firsthand knowledge is not an insult, it's a statement of fact. Corroborated in this case, by Ascott herself.



Spot on. It appears the admin at the time (quoted in the very first post in this thread) seems to have a liking for Ascott that clearly biases his/her administrating duties. This has been brought up with Josh, and I suspect we won't be seeing much more of this behaviour in the future.

Another thing to remember is just because someone is an admin, does not mean they have final say. As a community, if we feel someone or something is not correct, voice it to Josh. This will not only help the tortoises and community, but will also help to ensure that positive change is made. Without us, the people using this forum, there would be no community.


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## Tom (Mar 23, 2015)

Zeko said:


> Spot on. It appears the admin at the time (quoted in the very first post in this thread) seems to have a liking for Ascott that clearly biases his/her administrating duties. This has been brought up with Josh, and I suspect we won't be seeing much more of this behaviour in the future.
> 
> Another thing to remember is just because someone is an admin, does not mean they have final say. As a community, if we feel someone or something is not correct, voice it to Josh. This will not only help the tortoises and community, but will also help to ensure that positive change is made. Without us, the people using this forum, there would be no community.



You know I agree with you on this topic, and I love your message about working toward positive change in the second paragraph above, but I can't side with you on the moderators having bias toward Ascott. Ascott posted on the topic. You and I both know she has no idea what she's talking about, but her post was on the topic. I never saw your post, but I think it must have been like mine if it was removed from the thread. You and I were posting about Ascott and her comments on the topic, but not the topic. This has come up before and the mods were following their assigned protocol. Jaizei pointed this out specifically in his post where he explained why my post was removed. Its not bias in this case. It is a forum guideline that was created to make the forum better and stop personal attacks. In this case you and I agree that it is not making the forum better and that is why I applaud and appreciate your efforts to bring attention to the flaw in this guideline and bring about a change.


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## ascott (Mar 23, 2015)

zenoandthetortoise said:


> Reread my posts with Ascott. I'm a (wannabe) sulcata newbie and not only was she less than forthcoming about her lack of expertise, she was rude and condescending at every opportunity. Somehow, her posts weren't removed even though they were insulting and conveyed zero information. Why is it that her ramblings are immune from moderating but Tom, et al have their posts removed? Pointing out someone doesn't have any firsthand knowledge is not an insult, it's a statement of fact. Corroborated in this case, by Ascott herself.




Wow....I do not know how you can interpret me clearly stating the species I host as anything other than forthcoming (yes, I read the excuse you used about being on a mobile device, however--you were the one accusing me of something, so I would think you would have done some research before speaking, especially with all of this talk of proving yourself).....Rude and condescending? You absolutely and willingly read each and every word I type and cloak those with "rude and condescending"---I even pointed out to you that this was happening...again, the ears you heard with and not the intent/tone they were typed with.....there is nothing that I can do about your actions and your opinions.

Also, this is not the first thread in which you have had this exact practice with regards to me...this appears to be your manner --in my opinion.---see I clearly said, in my opinion---I site no other member, no book, no research paper.....but based entirely on you and your actions...some things are themselves the proof.

Finally, in regards to Tom; for most of the time I have been a member here on this forum..I took in and digested all that he posted. I have also shared in the past that I agree that humidity is essential for just about every living animal (just about)...the crossroad (opinion) in which I come to with regards to the information Tom shared is that I believe not every species should be housed in the high humidity/constant humidity/closed chamber set up. Tom clearly started out promoting this described set up for Sulcata and Leopard---great, but I am also a person that knows a blanket statement can be hazardous in the realm of life, including tortoise. There came a time when his advise began to consume certain species of tortoise that I know are negatively affected by this sulcata/leopard promotion....this is the point in which I have now been singled out as you have participated in...you see, I know better than to house a CDT in the same conditions he promotes for sulcata and leopard....I also know that russian tortoise should never be exposed to repeated cool/wet environments---as you will end up with a negative outcome. I know it. Now see, Tom only knows what he presumes to know of me...as you in the lynching mob have done as well...that is fine with me. I never came to this Forum in search of a playground group of friends. I initially came to this forum not because I have no knowledge of tortoise but rather because I has no direct knowledge of salivary gland failure in a California Desert Tortoise. That was it. You see, just because someone comes to this forum as a new member, does not in any ways mean they are new to tortoise. I am from a long background of family who have always had reptiles in their life. Not simply tortoise. I am a firm believer that each and every member here (new or old) is as important as the next...which would also include you. If it seems as though I do not reply to any post from Tom, it is because some time back he over stepped his bounds with me, in a personal nature--a personal attack on me due to my difference of opinion with his....in response to that, I simply utilized the forum option of marking a member as ignored. So, it would appear that there may be posts from Tom, based on your post I have quoted here, that again is trying to build himself up by trying to belittle yet another member here.....

I am not concerned with your opinion of me, I learned along time ago to only be concerned with the opinion of those that, personally matter to me. I am not concerned with the opinion of Tom in regards to me--he knows what he is doing. I also am not on this forum to try to win over anyone. I am here, to offer up to other people what I know, what I do and what I know from others that works in the care, custody and control of these forced captive beauties....I also will not allow a voice to go unspoken on behalf of CDTs and Russian Torts when the information being given is not always the best...regardless to if that person is Tom or you or any other member that I have a difference of opinion with (be it first hand or knowledge based)....I have never said that someone is purposely offering up information with the intent to harm a tortoise...I do offer up my opinion and offer up information that I know to be true, especially when only one tainted opinion/idea is being pressed hard on people..and that information is not in its entirely, complete.

In close, Yvonne, you and I have a couple of times had difference of opinion of this type of thread and its ugly evolution. I have had my posts fluffed, deleted, chopped up and completely removed in the past. Yet, to this day---there are two reasons I have the utmost respect for you, you are a true icon from the way back in regards to the care of tortoise--experience that can never be duplicated...also, you are always fair and that I respect you for as well. I will apologize here Yvonne if I have done wrong, especially by the guidelines of Joshs forum. @Yvonne G


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## leigti (Mar 23, 2015)

You say something along the lines of, sorry but I don't know how to copy and paste, Russian tortoises should never be exposed to constant cool/wet environment". I personally have not read anywhere that Tom said anything about keeping any tortoise in cool and wet environments, just to keep them in warm and wet environments. So is this where your philosophical differences lie?


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## Zeko (Mar 23, 2015)

leigti said:


> You say something along the lines of, sorry but I don't know how to copy and paste, Russian tortoises should never be exposed to constant cool/wet environment". I personally have not read anywhere that Tom said anything about keeping any tortoise in cool and wet environments, just to keep them in warm and wet environments. So is this where your philosophical differences lie?



She posts in a Sulcata topic, trying to bash Tom's way of raising and giving horrible advice.

Then she comes here and tries to make it out as if Tom was giving Russian tortoise advice.

It honestly is pointless talking to her, so our best course of action is to ensure that we can follow up her misinformation with the correct info, and make sure to inform future readers just how little knowledge she has on the topic at hand in hopes they do not follow it.

In the end, it's all about the tortoises. We can only hope the Troll finds better things to do in life than try to cause harm to other people's tortoises, whether intentional or not.


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## ascott (Mar 23, 2015)

leigti said:


> You say something along the lines of, sorry but I don't know how to copy and paste, Russian tortoises should never be exposed to constant cool/wet environment". I personally have not read anywhere that Tom said anything about keeping any tortoise in cool and wet environments, just to keep them in warm and wet environments. So is this where your philosophical differences lie?




Well, you will need to research a bit more (no sarcasm inserted here)....Tom has clearly stated that this species (russians as well as CDTs) can and should be house in the same environment as sulcata/leopards (wet, closed chamber and heat elements shut down in the evening saying it is alright for the temps to drop into the high 60's)....and has gone on and said that they can tolerate cool wet environments and seem to thrive...now, I know that a tortoise can tolerate alot....but to promote it is another thing....this is where I remind in the tread that if you are going to host this species, please keep in mind that a closed chamber, wet cool environment is a recipe for an ailing tort and if someone does choose to use that set up to please be sure then to not let the day and night temps ever fall below 80 degrees---to which I have been attacked on a personal level and have been subject to lynchings....this, is erroneous advise to offer to someone who is new to tortoise care....deadly for the tortoise in the interim....I make no apologies for my position. Also, this is such a new type of method to force on captive tortoise...simply not enough "actual" research by qualified people done....qualified to me does not include a guy who has some tortoise in his yard....now, that same guy certainly can and should share what he has found...but never claim it to be "the way"....because it is not the cure all..and this is what I have repeated and will continue to...regardless of the handful of characters.

Philosophical difference, there is no philosophical dialogue that had ever taken place...so no. I also am going to say, I have no idea of what you are referring to when you make the remark/statement of;



> You say something along the lines of, sorry but I don't know how to copy and paste



I am avoiding trying to interpret what your meaning is by this to me, please tell me what exactly you mean by your statement.


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## Tom (Mar 23, 2015)

ascott said:


> Wow....I do not know how you can interpret me clearly stating the species I host as anything other than forthcoming (yes, I read the excuse you used about being on a mobile device, however--you were the one accusing me of something, so I would think you would have done some research before speaking, especially with all of this talk of proving yourself).....Rude and condescending? You absolutely and willingly read each and every word I type and cloak those with "rude and condescending"---I even pointed out to you that this was happening...again, the ears you heard with and not the intent/tone they were typed with.....there is nothing that I can do about your actions and your opinions.
> 
> Also, this is not the first thread in which you have had this exact practice with regards to me...this appears to be your manner --in my opinion.---see I clearly said, in my opinion---I site no other member, no book, no research paper.....but based entirely on you and your actions...some things are themselves the proof.
> 
> ...



No one on this forum is saying that "every species" should be housed in a high humidity, constant humidity, closed chamber.

How do you know what will happen with a russian in any set of conditions, since you have never had one of any age? What you are saying about russians is false. I know it is false because I have done what you say will have a "negative outcome", and there was only a positive outcome. We are talking dozens of times for me, and countless times for others around the world.

Further along those same lines, how many CDT hatchlings have you raised with humidity? None. I, on the other hand, have raised about a dozen now in the conditions you say will cause them harm, yet all of them survive and thrive and are far healthier than their siblings raised in the typical dry environments. You would know this too, if you had ever done it.

I launched NO personal attack on you. I did exactly what I'm doing now. I pointed out that #1. You are wrong about these assertions you are repeating above, and #2. You have nothing to base these assertions on because you have never done any of the things that you are making these incorrect assertions about.

We don't have a "difference of opinion". I have been researching and doing the very things we are discussing here for years, while you have never done any of it. Not once. That is not a difference of opinion. That is one person who knows what they are talking about from lots of first hand experience with many species and ages over many years, and one person who knows nothing and has never done any of this, and has no basis at all for forming an opinion one way or the other, having a pointless discussion.

My information is "tainted"? "Incomplete"? What is tainted about it? Thousands of people are successfully using this information all over the entire planet. My results have been repeated with literally thousands of tortoise of many species, and the results are the exact opposite of what you claim. Tainted? Now _that_ is an insult. I'm not offended though, because it is an entirely baseless accusation with not even a hint of factual information or experience to back it up.


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## leigti (Mar 24, 2015)

ascott said:


> Well, you will need to research a bit more (no sarcasm inserted here)....Tom has clearly stated that this species (russians as well as CDTs) can and should be house in the same environment as sulcata/leopards (wet, closed chamber and heat elements shut down in the evening saying it is alright for the temps to drop into the high 60's)....and has gone on and said that they can tolerate cool wet environments and seem to thrive...now, I know that a tortoise can tolerate alot....but to promote it is another thing....this is where I remind in the tread that if you are going to host this species, please keep in mind that a closed chamber, wet cool environment is a recipe for an ailing tort and if someone does choose to use that set up to please be sure then to not let the day and night temps ever fall below 80 degrees---to which I have been attacked on a personal level and have been subject to lynchings....this, is erroneous advise to offer to someone who is new to tortoise care....deadly for the tortoise in the interim....I make no apologies for my position. Also, this is such a new type of method to force on captive tortoise...simply not enough "actual" research by qualified people done....qualified to me does not include a guy who has some tortoise in his yard....now, that same guy certainly can and should share what he has found...but never claim it to be "the way"....because it is not the cure all..and this is what I have repeated and will continue to...regardless of the handful of characters.
> 
> Philosophical difference, there is no philosophical dialogue that had ever taken place...so no. I also am going to say, I have no idea of what you are referring to when you make the remark/statement of;
> 
> ...


In a post a little bit ago there was a line that you wrote in there about Tom saying that it is okay to keep Russian tortoises in a cool and wet environment. I am a computer idiot and I do not know how to culcopy and paste or else I would have copied your exact statement. I am sorry I am a computer idiot. That is why said along the lines of because I could not remember your exact wording and I did not want to misquote you. I have read this forum for a few years now, at least three that is, and I just don't remember him saying that Russians should be kept cool and wet. At least not in a close chamber environment, maybe I am wrong because I have never made a true close chamber but I thought the idea of a close chamber is warm and wet. And close chambers are not needed for adult Russians, maybe just for babies. And even then it is not as critical with Russians. But either way cold and wet is not good for any toward us. I don't agree with everything Tom says, but on this issue I have not read any proof of what you're saying.


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## Zeko (Mar 24, 2015)

leigti said:


> In a post a little bit ago there was a line that you wrote in there about Tom saying that it is okay to keep Russian tortoises in a cool and wet environment. I am a computer idiot and I do not know how to culcopy and paste or else I would have copied your exact statement. I am sorry I am a computer idiot. That is why said along the lines of because I could not remember your exact wording and I did not want to misquote you. I have read this forum for a few years now, at least three that is, and I just don't remember him saying that Russians should be kept cool and wet. At least not in a close chamber environment, maybe I am wrong because I have never made a true close chamber but I thought the idea of a close chamber is warm and wet. And close chambers are not needed for adult Russians, maybe just for babies. And even then it is not as critical with Russians. But either way cold and wet is not good for any toward us. I don't agree with everything Tom says, but on this issue I have not read any proof of what you're saying.



She picks and chooses part of what people say and then twists the rest.

Every post I've ever read of Tom's follows the lines of humidity + proper temps, day and night is required. Usually by using a CHE on a thermostat.

Not once has he said "wet and cold is good".


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## leigti (Mar 24, 2015)

Maybe instead of philosophical differences I should've said theoretical differences.


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## leigti (Mar 24, 2015)

Zeko said:


> She picks and chooses part of what people say and then twists the rest.
> 
> Every post I've ever read of Tom's follows the lines of humidity + proper temps, day and night is required. Usually by using a CHE on a thermostat.
> 
> Not once has he said "wet and cold is good".


I did not think he ever said that either. But if Assct believes that he did then that would explain why she fights so much against him. And why, from an outsiders view, they don't see eye to eye on much of anything.


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## ascott (Mar 24, 2015)

leigti said:


> In a post a little bit ago there was a line that you wrote in there about Tom saying that it is okay to keep Russian tortoises in a cool and wet environment. I am a computer idiot and I do not know how to culcopy and paste or else I would have copied your exact statement. I am sorry I am a computer idiot. That is why said along the lines of because I could not remember your exact wording and I did not want to misquote you. I have read this forum for a few years now, at least three that is, and I just don't remember him saying that Russians should be kept cool and wet. At least not in a close chamber environment, maybe I am wrong because I have never made a true close chamber but I thought the idea of a close chamber is warm and wet. And close chambers are not needed for adult Russians, maybe just for babies. And even then it is not as critical with Russians. But either way cold and wet is not good for any toward us. I don't agree with everything Tom says, but on this issue I have not read any proof of what you're saying.




I too am not great at the computer tango....only work what I need to limp along....once in a while I get lucky and get it right....lol....you see, my point is this---I do not always agree with all that every person offers up here as a way to do things --even Tom. However, I state my point/belief/concern and that is it....however, others appear to believe that unless I am clone of one way then gather the lynching group...well, go right ahead is my motto. You see, I have faith that most people in most situations have their own mind and their own ability to determine sense from nonsense....and that I have no control over....I also have faith that those that do not have that skill, join the lynching mob--as it is easier to run in a mob than to stand alone on ones own belief....you and I have not had harsh words before---we may have not aligned our entire beliefs directly in line, but I did not think that was a requirement in order for each to have their own validity....


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## Tom (Mar 24, 2015)

ascott said:


> Well, you will need to research a bit more (no sarcasm inserted here)....Tom has clearly stated that this species (russians as well as CDTs) can and should be house in the same environment as sulcata/leopards (wet, closed chamber



No. This is entirely untrue. My two care sheets have been up for a long time and read by thousands of people. They do NOT say russians and sulcatas should be housed the same way in "wet" closed chambers. I don't say sulcatas should be housed in "wet closed chambers" either. My chambers are dry with a mostly dry layer of substrate on top.

Direct copy/pasted quote from the second paragraph of my russian care sheet:
"Damp substrate will help to maintain moderate humidity and allow them to dig in and create their own little microclimate. I also like to offer a humid hide box for them to sleep in and retreat to. This will really help to maintain hydration and good shell growth in an open topped table. For babies I like to use large tubs or tanks and partially cover the top to maintain 50-70% humidity. I also offer a humid hide and my substrate of choice for babies is about 3-4" of damp coco coir. I hand pack it down to reduce the messiness. I don't worry about what the humidity level is for adults, AS LONG AS they have a damp substrate that they can dig into and a humid hide to retreat to."

Does't say anything about a wet closed chamber there. The above is how I recommend housing russians. I have also linked people to my russian care sheet for CDT hatchlings because the same techniques work very well for them too. How do I know this? Because I've done it dozens of times. How do you know what you are saying is correct? Is it because you've done it many times too? Oh wait. No. You never done it at all. You've never raised a single russian or CDT hatchling. Not wet. Not dry. Not cold, Not warm. How do _you_ know a Russian or CDT on damp substrate will get sick if the temperature drops below 80? Is it because you've done it a bunch and your multitude of tortoises got sick? No its not because you've _never_ done it. You know how I know they won't get sick? Because I've been doing it this way for several years now with dozens of tortoise and the result is always the same. Healthy, thriving tortoises. I do it day in and day out. I _live_ what I speak of, while you've never even done it. Not once. Lots of people keep russians on damp substrates. They have for decades, this is nothing new, and nothing I have suddenly invented. No one keeps russians at 80 degrees at night and for you to suggest that is ridiculous. You know how I know they won't get sick in the high 60s or low 70s on damp substrate? Because that's how mine live every day, and all of them have been thriving for years. Please tell everyone how many russian and CDT hatchlings you have raised this way with negative results. Zero. Not one. You think it doesn't rain where russians come from and then get cold at night? What about all the people housing them in Florida and Louisiana? Think it doesn't rain or get cold there? It was 41 degrees and raining in Louisiana when I was there 3 weeks ago. Did everyone's outdoor russians get sick and die?

This is the sort of baseless, false information that is the subject of this thread. I won't stand by and allow you to spread false information that you have based on nothing, and malign proven, solid, tried and true techniques that lead to healthy, thriving tortoises.


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## Zeko (Mar 24, 2015)

leigti said:


> I did not think he ever said that either. But if Assct believes that he did then that would explain why she fights so much against him. And why, from an outsiders view, they don't see eye to eye on much of anything.



As I've said many times: she is a forum troll.

I have gone through her profile and have read many of her posts. More often than not, it's not helpful, informative or correct.

I'm not sure if she is doing such because she dislikes Tom, because she is trying to harm other people's tortoises or she simply enjoys conflict.

Regardless, it's useless trying to change these types of people. Any other forum, she would be restricted to post in only certain parts of the forum, or at the very least given a strong warning.

While i'd love to think we are all here for the betterment of the tortoises, unfortunately it appears to not be the case.

And this is the reason we are in here trying to change the admin's policy on following up such people's posts with corrections, experience level and knowledge of such persons. I would hate to imagine how many people have read her posts and have followed her guidance. God help those people and their beloved pets.


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## Tom (Mar 24, 2015)

leigti said:


> In a post a little bit ago there was a line that you wrote in there about Tom saying that it is okay to keep Russian tortoises in a cool and wet environment. I am a computer idiot and I do not know how to culcopy and paste or else I would have copied your exact statement. I am sorry I am a computer idiot. That is why said along the lines of because I could not remember your exact wording and I did not want to misquote you. I have read this forum for a few years now, at least three that is, and I just don't remember him saying that Russians should be kept cool and wet. At least not in a close chamber environment, maybe I am wrong because I have never made a true close chamber but I thought the idea of a close chamber is warm and wet. And close chambers are not needed for adult Russians, maybe just for babies. And even then it is not as critical with Russians. But either way cold and wet is not good for any toward us. I don't agree with everything Tom says, but on this issue I have not read any proof of what you're saying.



leigti, I consider you a successful russian keeper. Do you, or did you, use a damp substrate in your indoor russian enclosures? What are/were your night temperatures? Did your tortoises get sick?


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## leigti (Mar 24, 2015)

Tom said:


> leigti, I consider you a successful russian keeper. Do you, or did you, use a damp substrate in your indoor russian enclosures? What are/were your night temperatures? Did your tortoises get sick?


My Russian is an adult that I got from a pet store. I always had the substrate a little damp but not soggy. Nighttime temperatures in doors were just house temperature so 60° or above. I've never provided heat at night. Outdoors I keep my Russian out at night if it is above 55°. Other than parasites which she came with, my russian has not been sick at all. No respiratory illnesses.


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## ascott (Mar 24, 2015)

Zeko said:


> As I've said many times: she is a forum troll.
> 
> I have gone through her profile and have read many of her posts. More often than not, it's not helpful, informative or correct.
> 
> ...



I too have previewed your prior activity...I am really trying to find your outstanding offerings....sincerely trying and still searching...

In regards to your repeated comment and reference to Tom...I find it interesting and amusing you are. I mean, I am assuming you are an adult, perhaps I am incorrect...but for the life of me I can not understand why feel the need to continually attach yourself to Tom...almost as though you require that relationship to have some perverse worth to the handful of your other klan..???

I am now, amused by you. At first, I was a bit bewildered, then found you annoying-somewhat like one of those little yippy dogs, you know....the kind that comes up from behind you--cowardly and nips at ones ankles....now, I simply feel kinda sorry for you...I mean--to attempt so badly to attach yourself to another, well, you go right ahead....use the elementary black top phrases and chants as often as you like, as often as you need to, what appears, so you feel some sense of superiority ....I am good. You see....simply because you say something, does not make is so.....carry on little troll---that is the word you seem to identify and limit yourself to....toodles.


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## Tom (Mar 24, 2015)

ascott said:


> I too have previewed your prior activity...I am really trying to find your outstanding offerings....sincerely trying and still searching...
> 
> In regards to your repeated comment and reference to Tom...I find it interesting and amusing you are. I mean, I am assuming you are an adult, perhaps I am incorrect...but for the life of me I can not understand why feel the need to continually attach yourself to Tom...almost as though you require that relationship to have some perverse worth to the handful of your other klan..???
> 
> I am now, amused by you. At first, I was a bit bewildered, then found you annoying-somewhat like one of those little yippy dogs, you know....the kind that comes up from behind you--cowardly and nips at ones ankles....now, I simply feel kinda sorry for you...I mean--to attempt so badly to attach yourself to another, well, you go right ahead....use the elementary black top phrases and chants as often as you like, as often as you need to, what appears, so you feel some sense of superiority ....I am good. You see....simply because you say something, does not make is so.....carry on little troll---that is the word you seem to identify and limit yourself to....toodles.



This is the type of rude, belittling post that does damage to this forum. This is nothing more than an attempt to insult and attack a persons character. This entire post is not abut the subject at hand and is not relevant to the discuss of grossly unqualified people giving specific advice and warnings about species they have no knowledge of of experience with.

Bad form. Boo.


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## Tom (Mar 24, 2015)

leigti said:


> My Russian is an adult that I got from a pet store. I always had the substrate a little damp but not soggy. Nighttime temperatures in doors were just house temperature so 60° or above. I've never provided heat at night. Outdoors I keep my Russian out at night if it is above 55°. Other than parasites which she came with, my russian has not been sick at all. No respiratory illnesses.



Thank you for sharing your first hand experience, but surely you must be a lucky anomaly because according to Ascott a russian on damp substrate whose temperature drops below 80 will get sick and die. I have 20 currently that are also a lucky anomaly. Mine are on damp substrate and their temp drop well below 80 every night, yet somehow they manage to carry on living.

Anyone else out there getting lucky with a russian on damp substrate with night temps below 80 and somehow miraculously surviving?

P.S. This is not an attack on anyone. I am simply trying to refute a claim that I know to be erroneous because of extensive, first hand personal experience.


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## leigti (Mar 24, 2015)

I think some confusion may be caused when discussing adults versus babies. I would not keep a baby Russian on damp substrate below 80. But my Russian is an adult and is able to warm up every day. So I think especially for a new tortoise keeper, if it is not very clear the differences between adult and hatchling care then it can get very confusing very quickly. And I think that's why there is confusion as to what is said at times.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Mar 24, 2015)

ascott said:


> I too have previewed your prior activity...I am really trying to find your outstanding offerings....sincerely trying and still searching...
> 
> In regards to your repeated comment and reference to Tom...I find it interesting and amusing you are. I mean, I am assuming you are an adult, perhaps I am incorrect...but for the life of me I can not understand why feel the need to continually attach yourself to Tom...almost as though you require that relationship to have some perverse worth to the handful of your other klan..???
> 
> I am now, amused by you. At first, I was a bit bewildered, then found you annoying-somewhat like one of those little yippy dogs, you know....the kind that comes up from behind you--cowardly and nips at ones ankles....now, I simply feel kinda sorry for you...I mean--to attempt so badly to attach yourself to another, well, you go right ahead....use the elementary black top phrases and chants as often as you like, as often as you need to, what appears, so you feel some sense of superiority ....I am good. You see....simply because you say something, does not make is so.....carry on little troll---that is the word you seem to identify and limit yourself to....toodles.


What's the goal with these continued, insulting posts? Please limit the response to 2-3 sentences. Really, I'm curious.


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## mike taylor (Mar 24, 2015)

I want a list of experts please .


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## ZEROPILOT (Mar 24, 2015)

Finally it's beginning to feel like a family here.
I thank each and every one of you for your help.
It's not realistic that so many passionate people can always get along.


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## Tom (Mar 24, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> I want a list of experts please .



I wish I could give you that Mike. I've heard some members refer to other members as experts, but I don't know anyone here who considers them self and "expert".

What purpose would such a list serve? Who would define what it takes to be defined as an expert? Why should anyone care about who is an expert or not?


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## Cowboy_Ken (Mar 24, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> I want a list of experts please .


Experts at what? 
Nudge, nudge, wink, wink…


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## Tom (Mar 24, 2015)

zenoandthetortoise said:


> Good morning. My practice, as you say, with you has been to try to...work...through...your CRYPTIC syntax and see if you have any information on offer. If so, I attempt to determine voracity, based on either evidence or reference, neither of which you provide. This is not a personal attack, this is a technical dismissal. Biology is not like open mike poetry night, where everybody's opinions are equally valid. You wish to engage in discussion or critique? Great! Then come to play. That means with evidence, reference, or at least logical reasoning (that's the hierarchy in descending order, by the way). Absent that, you're only providing personal musings at best, which are irrelevant, or bad advice, which is dangerous.



I have some evidence I'd like to submit to the discussion: I have 20 russian tortoises aged 1.5 -3 years old, 15 of which have been in my care within a month of their hatch dates, while the five three year olds were approximately 8 months old when I got them. They have all been housed on damp substrate in partially covered, open topped enclosures continuously since the first day I got them. Every night their over night low temperature drops well below 80 degrees and all are alive and well, thriving and growing quite nicely.

More evidence: I've raised hundreds of sulcatas, 7 dozen leopards, and 10 Burmese stars in constant high humidity closed chambers and I'm happy to report that every single one is also alive and well, thriving and growing nicely.

While I realize this is just a small subset of evidence, at least is is something, right?


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## Team Gomberg (Mar 24, 2015)

Sorry Josh... I think this thread has shut down all hopes of selling your newest TFO t-shirt.

"EXPERT MEMBER"

Lol


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## Tom (Mar 24, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> I want a list of experts please .



Our friend Cowboy Ken is an expert at self-promotion. You should see his thread! Ken, can you link it for us?

Sadly this is a short and lonely list, as no one can match Ken's unique and hard earned title in this category.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Mar 24, 2015)

Tom said:


> Our friend Cowboy Ken is an expert at self-promotion. You should see his thread! Ken, can you link it for us?
> 
> Sadly this is a short and lonely list, as no one can match Ken's unique and hard earned title in this category.


It is completely a true statement that there is no coincidence that the last letters of awesome are “me"! Just clear reality.


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## jaizei (Mar 24, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> I want a list of experts please .









Just make sure you parrot the "right" person.


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## Team Gomberg (Mar 24, 2015)

From my perspective, it seems the only time "parroting" is called out in a negative light is when people point out Tom's links.
No one has ever come down on someone parroting Yvonne's baby soaks, not that they should..
I just can't recall an instance where people went all "anti parroting" on someone other than when sharing Tom's humid info.

Coincidence? Biased?....curious.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Mar 24, 2015)

mike taylor said:


> Like I said on the other post . I would like the names of the experts here . The school, phd or any other thing that makes anyone person an experts here . This is a bundle of information made by different keepers. What works for one may need to be tweaked to work for you . There is no one way layed out to follow . Take the information add a little common sense and run with it .



Hi Mike, I like many of your posts. To specifically answer this question about 'experts" I'd suggest that even with a PhD, you'd poke a hole in that POV,'cause they don't have real world experience. Or some other straw man argument. Jacqui once suggested there are no such thing as experts, and certainly not on TFO. I frankly think TFO has the largest collection of chelonian husbandry 'experts' in the world. If you really only define experts as people with PhD's then there are indeed experts by that criteria here on TFO. If people with PhD's and published, well TFO still has experts. If PhD, published, and at least ten ears experience then still, TFO has experts. What criteria would make you give a pass on someone being an expert? No one 'knows it all'. An interesting quote from a fiction writer comes from Robert Hienlein "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." So argument in its rational form is a great tool to learn with. Tit for tat Yes/No is an irrational way to argue.

So, what criteria will satisfy your interest to characterize someone as an expert, once and for all, and I'll 'out them' here on TFO.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 24, 2015)

The rules the moderators go by:

1. Do not post anything blatantly rude and/or insulting
2. Spamming and trolling will not be tolerated
3. Do not post explicit or otherwise inappropriate material
4. Refrain from the discussion of any illegal activity
5. Taunting, berting, or antagonizing moderators and/or staff will not be tolerated. Issues with our 100% volunteer staff can be directed to [email protected]

*Far as I'm concerned, this thread has gone way past rule #1. If anyone has something they want to offer about the SUBJECT matter, please hurry and do so, because I'm going to close this thread by 5p this evening. I don't see any constructive value leaving it open.*


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## Cowboy_Ken (Mar 24, 2015)

Yvonne G said:


> I'm going to close this thread by 5p PST this evening. [/B]


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## Yvonne G (Mar 24, 2015)

Yes, I'm in PDt, Ken. Thanks for reminding me.


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## jaizei (Mar 24, 2015)

Zeko said:


> Spot on. It appears the admin at the time (quoted in the very first post in this thread) seems to have a liking for Ascott that clearly biases his/her administrating duties.



This may be, literally, the funniest thing I have read on this forum. I can assure you that there is absolutely no favorable bias towards Angela.


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## mike taylor (Mar 24, 2015)

Tom said:


> Our friend Cowboy Ken is an expert at self-promotion. You should see his thread! Ken, can you link it for us?
> 
> Sadly this is a short and lonely list, as no one can match Ken's unique and hard earned title in this category.


You got that one right . To answer your other questions . To know who the so called experts are I think it would help . I know one thing if I need help with my Leopards or sulcatas I go to you or Kelly . Plus Ken helps me out also . So I would put you and Kelly down as experts no problem . Yvonne needs to be on the list also . I just really wanted to point out there really isn't a set expert here . So don't take it wrong I really am grateful you are here .


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## Yvonne G (Mar 24, 2015)

If I've gleaned the info correctly, what is being opposed here in the thread is a person with no experience about that particular species of tortoise offering opinions on that species. This has been a bone of contention with me too. Trouble is, how do you know if that person has first hand experience? We are a family oriented forum and we want everyone to feel welcome and comfortable joining in and posting. So we have to be careful how we 'come down' on someone offering advice. My favorite thing to do is give a link to a care sheet here on the Forum, or a link to the Tortoise Library. These were all written by Forum members and have good information in them. So if a member I don't know gives advice I believe to be questionable, I will come back with the care sheet/library links. If the advice is downright wrong, and I know for sure it's wrong, I will respond by showing why I think it's wrong and then I'll give what I consider to be the correct info. 

You don't have to be accusatory. You can correct a wrong post in a polite manner. This allows the new person to feel more comfortable with the correction, and we can educate rather than scare them away.


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## jaizei (Mar 24, 2015)

Team Gomberg said:


> From my perspective, it seems the only time "parroting" is called out in a negative light is when people point out Tom's links.
> No one has ever come down on someone parroting Yvonne's baby soaks, not that they should..
> I just can't recall an instance where people went all "anti parroting" on someone other than when sharing Tom's humid info.
> 
> Coincidence? Biased?....curious.



I make no distinction. I think parroting should be frowned upon. I don't understand why anyone would be proud of parroting. The term itself was meant to be an insult. Parrots mindlessly repeat things, without understanding. I prefer learning; where you actually process the information you take in and add it to your knowledge base. To be clear, you don't necessarily need firsthand experience, but you should have something of an understanding of what you are saying. And Yvonne is probably also considered one of the "right" people too.

What started all this? Someone that was deemed as having no experience giving advice. I see no difference between Angela giving advice here, and others with no firsthand experience giving advice elsewhere. But if that person elsewhere is part of the cool crowd, then they are not treated the way Angela has been. I won't link to examples because I don't want to put anyone on the spot, but I can recall numerous examples where someone who has never owned sulcatas repeated Tom's opinion/advice as their own and were lauded as giving good advice. So there is a double standard.


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## mike taylor (Mar 24, 2015)

Will said:


> Hi Mike, I like many of your posts. To specifically answer this question about 'experts" I'd suggest that even with a PhD, you'd poke a hole in that POV,'cause they don't have real world experience. Or some other straw man argument. Jacqui once suggested there are no such thing as experts, and certainly not on TFO. I frankly think TFO has the largest collection of chelonian husbandry 'experts' in the world. If you really only define experts as people with PhD's then there are indeed experts by that criteria here on TFO. If people with PhD's and published, well TFO still has experts. If PhD, published, and at least ten ears experience then still, TFO has experts. What criteria would make you give a pass on someone being an expert? No one 'knows it all'. An interesting quote from a fiction writer comes from Robert Hienlein "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." So argument in its rational form is a great tool to learn with. Tit for tat Yes/No is an irrational way to argue.
> 
> So, what criteria will satisfy your interest to characterize someone as an expert, once and for all, and I'll 'out them' here on TFO.


Thanks for liking my post . You don't need a phd to be an expert . I was trying to get someone to say they are . Just to point there isn't any . Like you said this is the best place to learn . But to ask an expert nope . To ask for direction yes . People need to understand there's not one way . You can't just put them in a box with heat and walk away . You have to check try ,check try , ask, try check then one day its working . I like everybody here but Newt! Haha its a very helpful place for a starting point . But you have to tweak and try different stuff . Ok off my soap box .


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## ascott (Mar 24, 2015)

leigti said:


> I think some confusion may be caused when discussing adults versus babies. I would not keep a baby Russian on damp substrate below 80. But my Russian is an adult and is able to warm up every day. So I think especially for a new tortoise keeper, if it is not very clear the differences between adult and hatchling care then it can get very confusing very quickly. And I think that's why there is confusion as to what is said at times.



You are absolutely correct.....problem is when a blanket statement is made, then tortoise pay the price....THIS is and has been one of my biggest issues with the high humidity, closed chamber method, in addition to it is not a natural state for the tortoise to grow in...a tortoise does not live its life in this constant high humidity....in an outdoor space a tortoise can move from one micro climate to another with relative ease...in a closed chamber, there is not that choice...again, just one of my biggest issues with the "new" method of forced wet/hot/humid chambers....


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## ascott (Mar 24, 2015)

zenoandthetortoise said:


> Good morning. My practice, as you say, with you has been to try to...work...through...your CRYPTIC syntax and see if you have any information on offer. If so, I attempt to determine voracity, based on either evidence or reference, neither of which you provide. This is not a personal attack, this is a technical dismissal. Biology is not like open mike poetry night, where everybody's opinions are equally valid. You wish to engage in discussion or critique? Great! Then come to play. That means with evidence, reference, or at least logical reasoning (that's the hierarchy in descending order, by the way). Absent that, you're only providing personal musings at best, which are irrelevant, or bad advice, which is dangerous.
> 
> Hope I was able to provide some clarity. Have a great day



HEY!!!! You have a FANTASTIC day


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## leigti (Mar 24, 2015)

ascott said:


> You are absolutely correct.....problem is when a blanket statement is made, then tortoise pay the price....THIS is and has been one of my biggest issues with the high humidity, closed chamber method, in addition to it is not a natural state for the tortoise to grow in...a tortoise does not live its life in this constant high humidity....in an outdoor space a tortoise can move from one micro climate to another with relative ease...in a closed chamber, there is not that choice...again, just one of my biggest issues with the "new" method of forced wet/hot/humid chambers....


I don't think blanket statements are being made. I think quite frankly you were reading them as blanket statements. It is clear if a person is talking about a hatchling or an adult from the title or information in the thread and the original question asked.


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## ascott (Mar 24, 2015)

jaizei said:


> This may be, literally, the funniest thing I have read on this forum. I can assure you that there is absolutely no favorable bias towards Angela.




I can second that....


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## ascott (Mar 24, 2015)

leigti said:


> I don't think blanket statements are being made. I think quite frankly you were reading them as blanket statements. It is clear if a person is talking about a hatchling or an adult from the title or information in the thread and the original question asked.



Yes, blanket statements are being made all of the time and done without little regard to specifics of a new tortoise/turtle to the forum. I clearly know the difference between personal, custom and blanket statements...along with a multitude of others. Point being, this thread has a title that has clearly moved away from the original thread topic...so much so that it was given its own thread....


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## Jacqui (Mar 24, 2015)

I closed this thread, as everybody had over 24 hours to have their say. Enough is enough. Please feel free to take your comments to PMs with each, but please still keep them as civil as you can. Thanks.


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