# Vermiculite ingestion in neonates.



## Elohi (May 13, 2016)

I've got a question (or a few) about the possible risks involved with the ingestion of vermiculite in neonates. 

If a hatchling pips and for whatever reason ingests copious amounts of vermiculite, what risks does that present for that animal?

If it does not cause a digestive blockage and the animal is capable of passing the medium, what is to be expected? Let's also say that animal passes it for several weeks. Dehydration is the first risk I can think of. What else?

If dehydration occurs despite the efforts of the keeper, what else might we see develop?


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## wellington (May 13, 2016)

Interesting. @Tom may be able to answer this. This I believe is why he uses this for his egg hatching as its safer then the other stuff that for some reason I can't think of the name


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## Tom (May 13, 2016)

Every leopard and sulcata baby that I've hatched eats a little vermiculite during the hatching process. I remove them from the incubation media the moment they leave their egg, but they still manage to ingest some. This has never been a problem. When they begin pooping for the first time 2 weeks later, I will always see little flecks of vermiculite in their first 2 or 3 poops. In small amounts it apparently passes with no issue. I've never seen any in their poop beyond their first few poops.


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## cdmay (May 14, 2016)

I use perlite for incubating eggs and I've seen countless neonates--still in their eggs--stick their heads down and eat a little of the stuff. Their first poops are often solid white blobs of perlite. But I do try and limit this by removing them quickly.
Never had an issue though.


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## diamondbp (May 14, 2016)

Tom said:


> Every leopard and sulcata baby that I've hatched eats a little vermiculite during the hatching process. I remove them from the incubation media the moment they leave their egg, but they still manage to ingest some. This has never been a problem. When they begin pooping for the first time 2 weeks later, I will always see little flecks of vermiculite in their first 2 or 3 poops. In small amounts it apparently passes with no issue. I've never seen any in their poop beyond their first few poops.


Two weeks for their first poop? My hatchlings were pooping within the first week. I move the eggs from the vermiculite the moment they pip. I don't give them to option to even potentially ingest something like vermiculite. I've had a few eat greens that I place in front of them before even leaving the egg. I've yet to have a baby pass any vermiculite of any amount. I'm sure if I as a human ingested even a little vermiculite it would affect my system, let alone a baby tortoise. Although they may continue to grow and seem just fine I'm sure it can't be a "neutral" thing. It's got to be negative to some degree in my opinion.


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## Elohi (May 14, 2016)

I also move the eggs as they pip to minimize the possibility of vermiculite ingestion. I currently have the luxury of being home to attend to them as they start hatching so there is no delay. I am no expert but this is just what I've done. 

I am asking these questions because I bought a little hatchling from someone else and that baby pooped vermiculite for upwards of 3 weeks after I received it. (My own hatchlings have never pooped any and they poop within their first week) Not a few flecks here and there but large amounts of vermiculite were passed. That baby failed to thrive. It seems to me that a bite or two of vermiculite may be harmless in most cases but when they ingest significant amounts, we are highly likely to see problems with health and even failure to thrive.

I know of another keeper who lost a baby who was also passing large amounts of vermiculite, not purchased from the same source. That baby prolapsed and also failed to thrive and euthanized. 

When discussing this with a couple of vets, dehydration was mentioned as the most probable or most notable affect of ingesting vermiculite.

I will continue to be extra cautious about incubation medium as a result.


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## Tom (May 14, 2016)

diamondbp said:


> Two weeks for their first poop? My hatchlings were pooping within the first week. I move the eggs from the vermiculite the moment they pip. I don't give them to option to even potentially ingest something like vermiculite. I've had a few eat greens that I place in front of them before even leaving the egg. I've yet to have a baby pass any vermiculite of any amount. I'm sure if I as a human ingested even a little vermiculite it would affect my system, let alone a baby tortoise. Although they may continue to grow and seem just fine I'm sure it can't be a "neutral" thing. It's got to be negative to some degree in my opinion.



Vermiculite is inert and non-toxic. Inhaling lots of vermiculite dust repeatedly and frequently, could be an issue for lungs. but incidental ingestion of small amounts won't hurt a tortoise or a person. Now if a hatchling ate a lot of it, it could cause an impaction, but that is not the issue here.

What is it about vermiculite that concerns you?

Perlite is a different story. That stuff breaks down and lines their intestinal tract causing some percentage of them to fail to thrive and sometimes die. How bad it is will depend on how much they ingest. In my batch of 20 sudan sulcatas about a third died from it. Another third lived, but they were never quite right, and the last third is alive and doing just fine.


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## Tom (May 14, 2016)

diamondbp said:


> Two weeks for their first poop?



Yes. Usually 10-12 days from pipping. Sometimes 14-15 days, and as early as 8 or 9.


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## Tom (May 14, 2016)

Elohi said:


> I also move the eggs as they pip to minimize the possibility of vermiculite ingestion. I currently have the luxury of being home to attend to them as they start hatching so there is no delay. I am no expert but this is just what I've done.
> 
> I am asking these questions because I bought a little hatchling from someone else and that baby pooped vermiculite for upwards of 3 weeks after I received it. (My own hatchlings have never pooped any and they poop within their first week) Not a few flecks here and there but large amounts of vermiculite were passed. That baby failed to thrive. It seems to me that a bite or two of vermiculite may be harmless in most cases but when they ingest significant amounts, we are highly likely to see problems with health and even failure to thrive.
> 
> ...



Most breeders leave their babies in the incubation container on the incubation media while they absorb their yolk sacs. This can take several days. They explain this by saying that in the wild they would stay in the nest underground after hatching for at least a few days, if not longer. These same breeders usually assert, incorrectly, that a baby with a yolk sac will not eat. Most of us here on TFO know this is false, but many breeders still believe this. Again these are human attempts to mimic nature, and these things can cause significant problems, impaction or death being a couple examples.

Babies in the nest in the ground DO eat. They eat their eggs shells, dirt, and the mother's poop. Whenever I dig up a nest, I usually find a little poop near the eggs. It is believed that this will seed the GI tract with good microorganisms for digestion. Yet somehow, our captive hatched babies thrive and grow with out this seeding.


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## Elohi (May 15, 2016)

As I find they are pipping I move them, as each pips, to a warm and humid brooder box for them soak up their sacs, eat their shells, and start sampling foods that I offer. I move them around based on hatch/sac absorption level from one place in the box to another. 

Significantly reduces and even eliminated the opportunity to ingest any of the vermiculite. It's the way I will continue to do it after seeing there is some risk to the ingestion of vermiculite. I won't even use perlite because it appears to come with a greater risk of problems in smaller amounts.


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## Team Gomberg (May 15, 2016)

Monica, do you have any way of knowing how the breeder of your recently passed pp baby does it? 
Do they remove the neonate when it starts to pip? 
Do they keep it on the medium while it's absorbing the sac?

3 weeks of large amounts would lead me to assume the neonates are housed on the stuff for a while... 
Again, sorry to hear.


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## Tom (May 15, 2016)

Team Gomberg said:


> 3 weeks of large amounts would lead me to assume the neonates are housed on the stuff for a while...



Agreed. I see a few flecks in the first one or two BMs, and that's it.


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## Elohi (May 15, 2016)

Team Gomberg said:


> Monica, do you have any way of knowing how the breeder of your recently passed pp baby does it?
> Do they remove the neonate when it starts to pip?
> Do they keep it on the medium while it's absorbing the sac?
> 
> ...


I talked with them. I was told they get moved once the sac is absorbed. 
I was reimbursed for the tortoise and the individual and I are square. 

I'm just wanting to stress that there *may* be times when a hatchling ingests too much vermiculite before their sac is absorbed and could lead to serious issues. 

Her failure really hit me hard. I thought could save her. I wasn't able to.


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## Elohi (May 15, 2016)

I received her Feb 11th. This is the last picture I could find with a date but it still continued on into March. 
About the time I stopped seeing it was when things started getting ugly for her, though she always looked tired and had eye gunk from the get go. 



I know failures happen but how many of those can be prevented by removing babies a little sooner? Is her case a fluke...a freak thing? I'd assume so if I weren't seeing it in other tortoise groups. 

I'm just talking out loud I think lol.


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## Tom (May 15, 2016)

Elohi said:


> I talked with them. I was told they get moved once the sac is absorbed.



This is exactly what I was talking about. Some breeders still do this and it causes exactly what you had happen. Babies cannot be left walking around in the incubator, on this incubation media, for a week. I also think they learn what to eat while they are still in their brooder boxes with no substrate, and this is another factor here. They sample what they are exposed to in those first few days. Expose them to various weeds and greens in the brooder box, and that's what they learn to eat. Expose them to perlite or vermiculite for the first week, and they will learn to eat that.



Elohi said:


> I know failures happen but how many of those can be prevented by removing babies a little sooner? Is her case a fluke...a freak thing? I'd assume so if I weren't seeing it in other tortoise groups.
> 
> I'm just talking out loud I think lol.



Failures DON'T happen when you do it right, and no, this was not a fluke. That beautiful baby was killed by the breeders incorrect husbandry and rearing technique, and so are so many others. If they are started the way I outline in my thread: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-incubate-eggs-and-start-hatchlings.124266/
100% of them survive and thrive. All of them. There are no "flukes" and there is no "well some of them just aren't meant to make it…" If the babies are kept hydrated, fed and not allowed to get impacted, they live and thrive. Plain and simple. Breeder error.

The question is: Will this breeder learn from this mistake, or keep doing it the same way? How many of his other babies have senselessly died a horrible, slow, painful death? What's it going to take for these guys to figure this out?


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## Elohi (May 15, 2016)

And clarification after rereading some messages. The individual said they remove them soon after they are free from their egg. Just wanted to clarify.


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## Elohi (May 15, 2016)

Tom said:


> This is exactly what I was talking about. Some breeders still do this and it causes exactly what you had happen. Babies cannot be left walking around in the incubator, on this incubation media, for a week. I also think they learn what to eat while they are still in their brooder boxes with no substrate, and this is another factor here. They sample what they are exposed to in those first few days. Expose them to various weeds and greens in the brooder box, and that's what they learn to eat. Expose them to perlite or vermiculite for the first week, and they will learn to eat that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In my limited experience, my hatchlings were eating BEFORE they were even free of their eggs. In fact, my very first experience was a single hatchling that dove right for the vermiculite in an attempt to get a piece of eggshell, I immediately intervened (I was filming at the time) and removed him, while still in his egg, into a brooder box and let him eat his egg and some greens. I experienced this again this last fall when the babies were ravenous while still in and literally rolling out of their eggs. Eating everything they could possibly sample, even trying to sample one another (lol). Needless to say, that first experience is why I've been so careful since. They pip, they get moved.


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## DPtortiose (May 17, 2016)

Interesting topic, from what I've read about this is that it's not uncommon for tortoise to swallow small stone to aid in digestion. According to the litarture I've read T. hermani neonates supposidly ingest sand from the nest for this similair reason. 



Tom said:


> It is believed that this will seed the GI tract with good microorganisms for digestion. Yet somehow, our captive hatched babies thrive and grow with out this seeding.



Excellent point, it's shame we know relatively little about the gut fauna. To give an indication how important this may be, our local horse farrier has started to give fecal transplants to horse that are in remission from cancer. Before he started doing this, 80% of all the treated horse got cancer again in five years. Now with fecal transplants only 10% of all of his patients was diagnosed with cancer again in five years. A good gut fauna has an very large impacted on growth, weight and the immune stystem. It's perhaps not a bad idea to introduce the neonate to some adult tortoise dung, but I would be a bit worried about possible parasite infections spreading.


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## Tom (May 17, 2016)

DPtortiose said:


> It's perhaps not a bad idea to introduce the neonate to some adult tortoise dung, but I would be a bit worried about possible parasite infections spreading.



Given the plethora of disease that run through the tortoise community, I don't think this would be good advice. Too many animals are asymptomatic carriers of too many things.

I wouldn't mind the development of some sort of pro-biotic made for tortoises. I'd love to see the results of that. I'd like to raise 2 groups of 6 babies, all from the same clutch, in the same divided enclosure with the same diets and routine. One group gets the probiotics from day one, and the other group doesn't.


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## TurtleBug (May 17, 2016)

Tom said:


> I wouldn't mind the development of some sort of pro-biotic made for tortoises. I'd love to see the results of that. I'd like to raise 2 groups of 6 babies, all from the same clutch, in the same divided enclosure with the same diets and routine. One group gets the probiotics from day one, and the other group doesn't.



Have you tried the reptile probiotic NutriBAC df by MZR?

http://www.mzrproducts.com


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## Tom (May 17, 2016)

TurtleBug said:


> Have you tried the reptile probiotic NutriBAC df by MZR?
> 
> http://www.mzrproducts.com



I have not tried any probiotics on any reptiles. Have you? What results have you seen?


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## TurtleBug (May 17, 2016)

I have used it a few times on newly acquired tortoises that were given antibiotics, but I cannot tell if it made any difference since I didn't do any kind of comparison between animals.


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## DPtortiose (May 17, 2016)

Only looking at the site and the included bacteria genus that it supposed to contain I wouldn't use it. 

http://www.mzrproducts.com/#!patent-and-abstract/cign

Several genus added contain known pathogens, which in itself isn't a bad thing. But bacteria become diseases by (unbalanced) population growth. So adding an unknown amount of unknown bacteria species to an unspecified species isn't something I would do.

http://www.mzrproducts.com/#!research-and-publications/c1pna

The research above is mostly published by a single author in a single journal over almost two decades ago. The referred to field trails where done on commercial birds and not on reptiles. So I’m more than a little bit skeptical.

I managed to find only one study referred to by the website: https://www.google.com/patents/US5879719 Haven't had the time to read it though.

I'll see if I can find the rest, the concept is really interesting. But I have my doubts it works as advertised.


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## Kapidolo Farms (May 20, 2016)

A couple of things. 

Don't use fine grade vermiculite, it is small enough for them to eat, and it blocks more of the surface area of the eggs. As an example of where to buy, not a specific recommendation. http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/product/vermiculite-4-cubic-foot-bag/soil-additives

Or don't use vermiculite at all. You can use small expanded clay beads like what indoor gardeners use. Does all the same work as vermiculite and can not be consumed by neonates.

If you check daily for neonates, check for piping eggs and put piping eggs in a separate container lined with slightly moist paper towel, and some food.


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