# Tortoise opening mouth



## sparkling

Hi everyone,
I'm sorry to start my first thread on such a sad note but maybe someone could give me some advice. 
So, my Russian Lilly (7 yrs old) started to act strange about 3 days ago. She's stretching her neck and opening her mouth quite wide (like every 30 seconds or so), like there's something stuck in her throat or she's about to throw up. Except there's nothing blocking the throat or her nose. I don't suppose it's yawning either. I think, her eyes are a little watery too. Otherwise, none other symptoms are visible: no runny nose, no coughing, she's acting and eating perfectly well. 
Could it be RI? I have an appointment with a vet tomorrow evening but I am really panicking.
Thank you.


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## Yvonne G

Tortoises don't breathe through their mouth. So when their nose is plugged up, they don't breathe. Every so often when they need oxygen, a tortoise with a plugged nose will gasp - open his mouth wide and take in air.

In a very bright light, examine your tortoise's nose and see if you can tell if it is plugged.

The pharmacy sells little squeeze bottles of sterile saline solution for contact lens wearers. Buy a bottle and squirt it up each nostril. Don't be stingy. Give it a good, solid squirt - up each nostril. The other end of the nostrils terminates in the roof of the tortoise's mouth, so there is no danger of squirting fluid into the lungs.

If this doesn't solve your problem you'll probably have to take the tortoise to the vet.

A reminder: Don't allow the vet to administer the A,D,E injection. An overdose of vitamin A causes a tortoise's skin to slough off, and some vets don't seem to understand the correct dosage on this vitamin.


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## sparkling

Yvonne G, thank you so much for a quick response! I already read your advice on other similar threads and used it but unfortunately nothing has changed  So, I guess, I'm just going to keep my girl extra warm and hope for good news from a vet. Will let you know how everything went


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## sparkling

Hi all, 
we went to see a vet yesterday and she said it's obvious that Lilly has trouble breathing and it's probably because of RI  She prescribed injectable antibiotics and anti-inflammatory drugs. So, now we have to visit a clinic everyday for 3 days to see if my little one's getting better and after that I can give injections myself for another 5 days.
The tort didn't do anything but sleep all day after the visit. Today she's active again but her breathing is till through her mouth.
Also, as much as I trust the vet, should I ask for X-rays? I am so afraid that Lilly has pneumonia and it would be easier to treat her if we knew exactly what the danger is. 
Can I still soak her or is it better to avoid it because of the injections? 
Thank you.


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## mikeh

It will take few days to see if the antibiotics are working. What kind of antibiotics is she getting? 
You can still soak her in Luke warm water. Bump up her temps all around few degrees to help the immune system do its job.
Hope she pulls thru!

sent from mobile device using TFO app


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## beverley

Hi. My little tortoise Olive had RI the vet gave her an antibiotic injection and a bottle of it to give her orally. We didnt think she would survive the night she was do poorly. But she did. As she was so small we just put it on her food and if she wouldnt eat a little bit on her lips. We kept that up for about a week and she's great now. Good luck with yours.


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## sparkling

Thank you, guys, for your good wishes. Today we went to the clinic once again for another injection. However, the vet switched to other antibiotics, because Lilly's urine started to smell strongly. 

mikeh, I can't remember exactly what kind of antibiotics she's getting, but I'll ask the vet again tomorrow and write it down.

beverley, I am happy to hear that Olive is well! Hope my girl is going to be alright in no time.


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## sparkling

Update. It's the 4th day of the treatment and it seems my tortoise gone from not well to terrible. It's color turned slightly paler and brownish yellow (to me it's a visible change). His front legs look skinnier and the skin is peeling off a lot everywhere. Also, she started to leave tiny puddles of pee which stinks like ammonia. I called another vet who works at the national zoo reptile department and has deep knowledge about tortoises and he said that from all I've told him on the phone, it looks like the tort maybe have RI (hard to tell without examining), but his main concern, also, is that there's a huge problem with it's kidneys and urinal system. For now he advised me all the basics (higher temps, soaking in salty water, etc.). He's based quite far away from my city, but I'm taking a day off at work and going to see him probably on Thursday (or hopefully sooner). 
After the conversation, I went back to see the local vet who's treating Lilly and she said that for now it's best to take her off the antibiotics, because she seems worse even before the treatment. She advised to keep the temps higher (already doing this from the beginning) and try to feed her food with multivitamins added...
Here's the antibiotic routine that Lilly had:
28th - Baytril 2.5% 0,4 i/m (not sure what that means); Rapidexon Dexamethson 2mg/ml 0.1 i/m
29th - Gentamycin 4% 0.2 i/m ; Rapidexon Dexamethson 2mg/ml 0.4 i/m
30th - Gentamycin 4% 0.2 i/m; Rapidexon Dexamethson 2mg/ml 0.4 i/m
31th - today - nothing


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## laney

Sorry I can't offer any advice. Wishing your little one luck and strength to get better x


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## Ruchonnet

If it makes you feel any better my tortoise also had the antibiotic injections and the first few made him feel terrible. He wouldn't eat, walk, or even move his head around. But by the 5th one he started perking up again and didn't seem to have any negative side effects from the shots after that.


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## sparkling

Lilly didn't survive. It was like 10 minutes later after I wrote my last post here, that I went to her terrarium to check on her to find she was not moving.. It's just devastating to lose her after 5 years. Thank you all for the help and advices.


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## TJ1999

I'm sorry for your loss, at least she's not in pain now *virtual hug*


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## TigsMom

I'm so very sorry for your loss.


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## cindyrae4

I'm sooo sorry for your loss also! I lost a Russian a few months ago & it broke my heart. I know how you feel! 

My solution was to get 2 more Russians. That helped in the healing. Hang in there!


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## Irish

I am so sorry to hear of your loss.


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## ChaseNTx

I've been following along on Lilly's treatment and I'm so very sorry to hear the sad news. You're in my thoughts tonite.


I've been following along on Lilly's treatment and I'm so very sorry to hear the sad news. You're in my thoughts tonite.


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## Kathy Coles

I am so sorry about your loss. It seems you did everything that was possible for her. But just to help the rest of us in the future, was there anything, looking back, that happened that started this? It seems so scary that a loved tort could have this happen so suddenly. Thanks and be good to yourself.


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## luvpetz27

I am very sorry this happened.


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## Sulcata_Sandy

I'm so so so sorry! I, too, have been following this thread and wishing the best for Lilly.

I have a Greek who's developing an URI. Was doing ok and seemed to be improving, but this morning he's worse, so I texted my boss to meet me at the hospital and get Larry on antibiotics today. 
Thank you for posting the drugs and doseages, we can use that for making a protocol for Larry.
Thankfully Larry is still very active, friendly, eating, and otherwise normal. 

{{{{{hugs}}}}}


Sandy
.......................................
Oregon Tortoise Rescue


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## sibi

Sorry to hear what happened. The first med was what was given to my tort when be had URI. After 10 days of that, he was his old self. Your baby was just too sick...probably had pneumonia. Sometimes, out babies just can't fight anymore. Now, she's not hurting...only you. I wish I can take your pain off you and bare it for you.:'(


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## Yvonne G

I'm so very sorry that Lilly didn't make it. 

Just for our own satisfaction, please call that first vet and ask if they administered a vitamin a,d,e shot to the tortoise. Just injecting antibiotics does not cause the skin to peel, but an overdose of vitamin A does. It is helpful to all of us to know if that is what was causing the skin to peel. I appreciate your pain, but we really need to know.


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## oknursedana

Sorry for your loss!!!


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## sparkling

*Thank you all so much for your support.*

*Kathy Coles*, I am rethinking this over and over where I made a mistake. I am pretty sure I had the temperatures, housing and diet right, because I did a lot of constant research on the net. However, on warm summer days I would let her roam around the room and it could be that she caught a cold from wind gusts coming from open windows/doors or a cold from cold floor.. I don't know.

As for the kidney problem that probably caused her death, I am no expert here, but I can't overlook her drastic change after the first shot of Baytril. It all went down the hill just too fast after this.. or maybe that's what happens with RI.

*SenjiSandy*, I am wishing Larry to get through this horrible time and get well soon. Please keep us updated!

*Yvonne G *, I had your warning in mind every time I went to see the vet and she assured me that no vitamin supplements will be injected. She never did, I was there during the check ups.

I also have a question for *mikeh* or anyone who would know. I read that antibiotics should not be injected to rear legs. I asked about this all the vets I've been in contact through this time, and all said it's fine to do so. I am very confused.


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## mikeh

*Re: RE: Tortoise opening mouth*



sparkling said:


> *Thank you all so much for your support.*
> 
> *Kathy Coles*, I am rethinking this over and over where I made a mistake. I am pretty sure I had the temperatures, housing and diet right, because I did a lot of constant research on the net. However, on warm summer days I would let her roam around the room and it could be that she caught a cold from wind gusts coming from open windows/doors or a cold from cold floor.. I don't know.
> 
> As for the kidney problem that probably caused her death, I am no expert here, but I can't overlook her drastic change after the first shot of Baytril. It all went down the hill just too fast after this.. or maybe that's what happens with RI.
> 
> *SenjiSandy*, I am wishing Larry to get through this horrible time and get well soon. Please keep us updated!
> 
> *Yvonne G *, I had your warning in mind every time I went to see the vet and she assured me that no vitamin supplements will be injected. She never did, I was there during the check ups.
> 
> I also have a question for *mikeh* or anyone who would know. I read that antibiotics should not be injected to rear legs. I asked about this all the vets I've been in contact through this time, and all said it's fine to do so. I am very confused.



There is your answer. Antibiotics should never be administered nowhere near rear legs. Administering in rear legs greatly increases risk of antibiotics not being metabolised, instead going directly to liver and kidneys, causing organ failure and death. I am sorry to say but to me it looks like the vet killed your tortoise.

sent from mobile device using TFO app


If the injections were administered in rear leg area.

sent from mobile device using TFO app


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## sparkling

I just don't know what to say. It really breaks my heart that I didn't learn something like this before taking the tortoise to the vet. I should have, there's no excuse. I'm searching for some articles about this and going to call all the vets tomorrow to talk.


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## mikeh

sent from mobile device using TFO app


Here is the link of one source

http://www.anapsid.org/resources/rxdose.html

If you read in comments next to baytril it specifically says inject in front legs only.

Show that to you vet please! 

sent from mobile device using TFO app


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## sparkling

I am going visit the vet tomorrow instead of calling her. 
Thank you, mikeh.


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## mikeh

I don't know, I was asking you.

sent from mobile device using TFO app

____________________________________

Anyone reading this, please take a note and never allow baytril being administered into rear legs of a turtle/tortoise. When prescribed for RI, baytril injections should ideally be spaced to semi daily administration to aid in metabolizing the antibiotic between injections and reduce toxicity build up. 10 injections over 20 day period. It should be administered in a cavity between front leg and neck, closer to the leg, and JUST UNDER THE SKIN. As baytril is a painful injection sides should be alternated between left and right. This comes from a vet I use who is very knowledgeable and experienced with turtles/tortoises. 

I am sorry this torts had to pay with its life due to vets lack knowledge.

sent from mobile device using TFO app


sent from mobile device using TFO app


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## sibi

Correction: "UNDER THE SKIN" is not the proper way to inject Baytril. I wouldn't argue with a vet for injecting IM (intramuscular). My torts were injected for 10 days IM with no ill effects. In fact, they recovered from their RI, and are doing quite well. That report even mentions the two ways to administer Baytril to tortoises: IM or orally. I've got my experts also, and my vet is very knowledgeable even though I'm constantly checking his what he's doing to my torts.



mikeh said:


> I don't know, I was asking you.
> 
> sent from mobile device using TFO app
> 
> ____________________________________
> 
> Anyone reading this, please take a note and never allow baytril being administered into rear legs of a turtle/tortoise. When prescribed for RI, baytril injections should ideally be spaced to semi daily administration to aid in metabolizing the antibiotic between injections and reduce toxicity build up. 10 injections over 20 day period. It should be administered in a cavity between front leg and neck, closer to the leg, and JUST UNDER THE SKIN. As baytril is a painful injection sides should be alternated between left and right. This comes from a vet I use who is very knowledgeable and experienced with turtles/tortoises.
> 
> I am sorry this torts had to pay with its life due to vets lack knowledge.
> 
> sent from mobile device using TFO app
> 
> 
> sent from mobile device using TFO app


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## mikeh

*Re: RE: Tortoise opening mouth*



sibi said:


> Correction: "UNDER THE SKIN" is not the proper way to inject Baytril. I wouldn't argue with a vet for injecting IM (intramuscular). My torts were injected for 10 days IM with no ill effects. In fact, they recovered from their RI, and are doing quite well. That report even mentions the two ways to administer Baytril to tortoises: IM or orally. I've got my experts also, and my vet is very knowledgeable even though I'm constantly checking his what he's doing to my torts.
> 
> 
> 
> mikeh said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know, I was asking you.
> 
> sent from mobile device using TFO app
> 
> ____________________________________
> 
> Anyone reading this, please take a note and never allow baytril being administered into rear legs of a turtle/tortoise. When prescribed for RI, baytril injections should ideally be spaced to semi daily administration to aid in metabolizing the antibiotic between injections and reduce toxicity build up. 10 injections over 20 day period. It should be administered in a cavity between front leg and neck, closer to the leg, and JUST UNDER THE SKIN. As baytril is a painful injection sides should be alternated between left and right. This comes from a vet I use who is very knowledgeable and experienced with turtles/tortoises.
> 
> I am sorry this torts had to pay with its life due to vets lack knowledge.
> 
> sent from mobile device using TFO app
> 
> 
> sent from mobile device using TFO app
Click to expand...


I am sorry, but you really should stop giving people advice. In last couple days , you told person their tortoise has RI while its clearly overheating, to try pushing large prolapse back in, to have X rays done for bladder stones while the tort has clear RI, etc.

As baytril is a painful injection as it is, injecting just under the skin in the cavity between front leg and neck is much less painful then injecting into muscle tissue on the front leg or elsewhere. Injecting into muscle especially front leg is old school, it works but its very pain full to the animal.

sent from mobile device using TFO app


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## sibi

Listen Mister: you are out of order. Don't criticize my advise when you clearly are making assumptions yourself that cannot be verified or that are incorrect. Beginning with "under the skin" injections, the report you provided to the OP states IM or orally. Instead of acknowledging that you were mistaken, you attack me for my comments of which you have no idea what illnesses are really being experienced. Let's take the overheating remark. Yes, I said RI because that's what mucus from the nose and mouth often is. I DIDN'T DISCOUNT OVERHEATING! I just stated a possibility to look out for. And, it still remains to be seen if the tort doesn't come up with a RI!!! Time will tell that, won't it?

The comment on x-rays of the bladder was clearly an oversight on my part because I thought the OP said the tortoise had a UTI as oppose to URI. Hello, my mistake. Pardon me Mister Expert! 

Finally, about the large prolapse, I simply asked if she could GENTLY push it back in. People who have actually experienced a prolapse in their torts, like I did, will make an attempt to put it back in no matter how large it is. If it can come out, it may be able to go back in. 

You have no business telling anyone who CAN give advise or not. Who do you really think you are? I, for one, would never advise an OP to tell her vet that he killed her tort. I, for one, would never tell the OP that her tort died of kidney and/or liver failure especially when you have no proof. Have you seen a pathology report stating the primary cause of death? NO YOU HAVEN'T! I would say, it's YOU who shouldn't give advise of things you have no knowledge about i.e., the death of that poor tort, OR HOW TO ADMINISTER BAYTRIL PROPERLY! If you're saying now, well that's old school, then why did you give a report to the OP with "old school" info?



mikeh said:


> sibi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Correction: "UNDER THE SKIN" is not the proper way to inject Baytril. I wouldn't argue with a vet for injecting IM (intramuscular). My torts were injected for 10 days IM with no ill effects. In fact, they recovered from their RI, and are doing quite well. That report even mentions the two ways to administer Baytril to tortoises: IM or orally. I've got my experts also, and my vet is very knowledgeable even though I'm constantly checking his what he's doing to my torts.
> 
> 
> 
> mikeh said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know, I was asking you.
> 
> sent from mobile device using TFO app
> 
> ____________________________________
> 
> Anyone reading this, please take a note and never allow baytril being administered into rear legs of a turtle/tortoise. When prescribed for RI, baytril injections should ideally be spaced to semi daily administration to aid in metabolizing the antibiotic between injections and reduce toxicity build up. 10 injections over 20 day period. It should be administered in a cavity between front leg and neck, closer to the leg, and JUST UNDER THE SKIN. As baytril is a painful injection sides should be alternated between left and right. This comes from a vet I use who is very knowledgeable and experienced with turtles/tortoises.
> 
> I am sorry this torts had to pay with its life due to vets lack knowledge.
> 
> sent from mobile device using TFO app
> 
> 
> sent from mobile device using TFO app
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am sorry, but you really should stop giving people advice. In last couple days , you told person their tortoise has RI while its clearly overheating, to try pushing large prolapse back in, to have X rays done for bladder stones while the tort has clear RI, etc.
> 
> As baytril is a painful injection as it is, injecting just under the skin in the cavity between front leg and neck is much less painful then injecting into muscle tissue on the front leg or elsewhere. Injecting into muscle especially front leg is old school, it works but its very pain full to the animal.
> 
> sent from mobile device using TFO app
Click to expand...


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## AnnV

I am terribly terribly sorry to hear of the tragic death of Lilly. I can't imagine. Sincere condolences.

I am dealing with a bit of an uri with my Star. Looking here and online for a reptile specialist, I thought I'd have to drive 1 1/2 hour. I called a friend who took her rats to a clinic listed here on vet page in RI. She just happened to meet a woman vet recently who bought a more local veterinary hospital, and she is an exotics specialist. My friend had her card right handy and gave the number. I was hoping to get in the next day as it eas just 5pm. As soon as the Dr heard it was a star with upper respiratory issues, she said she would wait for me to come that evening.
Turns out she was quite knowledgeable and spent a lot of time with me. I did opt for a culture from the fluid she obtained from his runny nose. And a fecal. Opted out of bloodwork and xrays which would have doubled the already substantial bill. She sent me home with Fortaz injectable and diabetic needles to be administered 7 times, every 3 days. She gave the first injection, explaining to me clearly as she demonstrated. I was to alternate front legs. She explained at that time, that torts cannot have injections in the rear legs because of their circulatory system. She told me if injected in the rear of the tort's body it does not circulate back around to the front, but instead goes straight to the kidneys. She also knew that Baytril was not to be given to I. Stars (confirmed by the breeder when I emailed him.)
I admit that I could not give the last injection. It was evident that the repeat injections at the same site were increasingly painful. And after nearly 3 weeks of treatment he was no better, anyway. We are still fighting it.
I may call the Dr back but will insist on oral meds that I can just pick up. Luckily, he eats well. I was putting him out regularly on nice days, but I am going to even stop that and just let him have ONLY the routine care in his small indoor enclosure. I think at this point he can't even handle the slight change from outdoor to indoor air and temp fluxuations. I even hate to stress him with soaks, but I know how important they are. 
Has anyone tried Reptaid for a tort. I have it on order.
Ann from CT


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## jaizei

It must be hard enough on the OP that they lost Lilly, let's try to keep the thread positive.


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## mike taylor

I'm sorry for your loss . But i must say to the two people that are fussing back and forth. I does not change this person just lost a loved friend and pet . So show a little respect and take it to a pm. 

Sent from my C771 using TortForum mobile app


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## sibi

You're absolutely right. Apologies to everyone who had to read the nonsense here. I'm particularly sorry for the OP's loss and that's what this thread should be about.


mike taylor said:


> I'm sorry for your loss . But i must say to the two people that are fussing back and forth. I does not change this person just lost a loved friend and pet . So show a little respect and take it to a pm.
> 
> Sent from my C771 using TortForum mobile app


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