# Sulcata Health Issues - Searched Everywhere For Answers, Very Scared!



## Karrahi (Aug 4, 2017)

We just got back from picking Harold up from our Vet, he spent the night there getting some fluids and tube feeding but I am just at a loss for what has happened. 

We got him June 8th and within 2 weeks we had to treat him for an RI, not completely unbelievable given moving with us and getting used to his new home. 

He has a 50g tank we started him, fresh water and fresh weeds/grass - mazuri sometimes (though he doesn't care for it). 80 to 95 in two areas - has a bonsai hide away that he uses and we have a combo uvb light (not coil but bulb) for basking for up to 14 hours a day. He also has access to calcium in a cuttle bone and a chalk block. 

We made him a table but with the temps being hard to control I changed back to the tank for now. 

We soak every day in terra-cotta dish out in the sun (watched) and is usually good about drinking - but doesn't usually pee or poop during soak. 

I have attached some pictures of him to show what has happened and I just need to know what we can do - I am going to vet later today to learn how to syringe feed but he has told me that the prognosis is not good. 

His arms stay upwards like that, this was an over the night change so I'm just at a loss I don't know what to do!













Has anyone seen this?


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## Stevieturtlelady (Aug 4, 2017)

Hmm...maybe try less grasses? Try feeding a carrot, and use warm treated tap water to bath him in.


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## Stevieturtlelady (Aug 4, 2017)

And make sure he's not stressed. Sometimes if you hold them to much it they get scared to much it can lead to illness.


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## Karrahi (Aug 4, 2017)

Stevieturtlelady said:


> Hmm...maybe try less grasses? Try feeding a carrot, and use warm treated tap water to bath him in.


 I got organic baby food that I am going to soak him in. Thank you for you help!


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## Stevieturtlelady (Aug 4, 2017)

Hope he gets better! Just try more vegetables 2 times a week with a hand filled of spring mix everyday. I have a 4 month old sulcata. He eats this and is very strong and healthy!


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 4, 2017)

Where did you get him ?
It seems he has been raised too dry to me, without the necessary humidity, maybe before you got him.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/
Also, what type of tree is your bonsai ? Some are toxic to torts. 
Check http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
and http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
also http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/
to make absolutely sure the rest of your set up, temps, humidity etc are correct. 
I wish you and him all the best, poor little mite.


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## Stevieturtlelady (Aug 4, 2017)

YES! They need water! His skin did look very dry! Good luck with that organic baby food!


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## Karrahi (Aug 4, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Where did you get him ?
> It seems he has been raised too dry to me, without the necessary humidity, maybe before you got him.
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/
> Also, what type of tree is your bonsai ? Some are toxic to torts.
> ...



I got him for Emerald Bay Repitile store - they have a breeder they know and trust very well, they only get one or two at a time no more then that. 

The bonsai is a plastic bonsai it's just his hide. 

I mean I would say if anything our humidity was on the low end when we first got him so we upped it to at least 70% but spraying/misting every morning and afternoon. 

I've read all of those forums, that's actually why I took him out of the table we made because although it was smaller in the tank I could control the temps and humidity. It just seems I can't find any conclusions I just want to know there is hope because I am willing to put in the effort but I don't want him to suffer


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## Yvonne G (Aug 4, 2017)

I wouldn't feed a baby a carrot.

From your picture, I'm seeing a very thin tortoise. Because he is so thin, it looks like he is holding up his legs, but he's not.

You can tell by the raised scutes (pyramiding) that this baby was raised in too dry conditions, like tidgy's dad said. This may have caused irreversable damage to his inner organs. 

Soak him in warm water daily for at least 30 minutes each time. You also need to feed him something that will put weight on. See if he'll eat Mazuri Tortoise Diet.


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## Karrahi (Aug 4, 2017)

Yvonne G said:


> I wouldn't feed a baby a carrot.
> 
> From your picture, I'm seeing a very thin tortoise. Because he is so thin, it looks like he is holding up his legs, but he's not.
> 
> ...



I have got Mazuri diet, when I go to the vet I am going to learn how to do syringe feed the Oxbow critical care.

I will hold off on the carrot - would it be safe to add some into the soak? Just to add some nurishment to the soak?

I reached out to where I got him from and they assured me this has never happened but I can't imagine with all of the obsessive work I have done that I could have given my baby a death sentence  

I just don't know.


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## Karrahi (Aug 4, 2017)

Have you seen any baby get better from this? Like at any degree?


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## Yvonne G (Aug 4, 2017)

I use Gerber strained carrots in the soaking water when a tortoise isn't eating. They absorb a bit of nutrients through the thin skin around the neck and around the cloaca. And the strained carrots is the highest in vitamin A.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 4, 2017)

Karrahi said:


> Have you seen any baby get better from this? Like at any degree?



Yes. LONG soaks and real sunshine will do wonders.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 4, 2017)

He looks rather thin and the skin on the upper limbs is odd looking.
Some make it, for sure. It depends how bad any internal organ damage is.
But we have seen many, many tortoises on here brought back from the brink.


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## Tom (Aug 4, 2017)

Karrahi said:


> We just got back from picking Harold up from our Vet, he spent the night there getting some fluids and tube feeding but I am just at a loss for what has happened.
> 
> We got him June 8th and within 2 weeks we had to treat him for an RI, not completely unbelievable given moving with us and getting used to his new home.
> 
> ...



Some notes based on what you've told us:


There is no reason why a baby should have an RI two weeks after you got him. I've sold hundreds of babies and shipped them all over the place and none of them get RIs. What was the overnight low in your table or tank, and what equipment were you using to maintain night temps?
What type of Mazuri are you using? Most tortoises don't like the LS type. Most tortoises do like the original type.
Soaking in a shallow dish they can walk out of is not soaking. You need a tall sided opaque tub that the tortoise can't see or climb out of for soaking. Terra cotta saucers are great to use as water and food dishes, but they aren't god as a soaking tub.
Babies can't take a whole lot of vet care and fussing. I'm also not a fan of force feeding babies. If they aren't eating, there is a good reason. Fix the problem, if it is fixable, and they should begin to eat on their own.
This baby has had a rough go at life. Where did you get it? The person needs some help learning proper care for this species.
Read those threads that Adam linked for you. That should help get things moving in the right direction.


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## Karrahi (Aug 4, 2017)

Tom said:


> Some notes based on what you've told us:
> 
> 
> There is no reason why a baby should have an RI two weeks after you got him. I've sold hundreds of babies and shipped them all over the place and none of them get RIs. What was the overnight low in your table or tank, and what equipment were you using to maintain night temps?
> ...



1. I was concerned about it but we had our house set very cold, and it got in the 70s so we addressed that after reading you couldn't use a red bulb only the combo UVB bulb we got when we brought him home. Now the lowest temps is 80 (that's actually why I took him out of the table because we didn't have the best heat regulation yet so I didn't want to keep him in there just yet) the tank stays in the 80s without the UVB since it is small but we are looking to get another ceramic element. 
2. It is the Mazuri LS - is the original the bigger ones? I can get some of that for sure. 
3. He can't get out of the terra-cotta pot yet (he isn't it just a little too small, he tries often) but I didn't feel anything would hold the warm water and keep it warm like the terra-cotta. But I will try a different vessel. 
4. I don't know what the reason could be, but I don't want to force feed him but I also don't want him to die because of starvation. It's a double edged sword but even my vet said he didn't want to do more than hydrate and feed him because it can be too stressful. I just feel like he took a turn in a matter of a day.
5. Emerald Bay: Fish and Reptile - they are based on Nashville, TN and I had heard good things but they said it hasn't ever happened to them and didn't offer much help or support. 


I appreciate all the feed back and help. I just haven't stopped crying for three days.


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## Tom (Aug 4, 2017)

Karrahi said:


> 1. I was concerned about it but we had our house set very cold, and it got in the 70s so we addressed that after reading you couldn't use a red bulb only the combo UVB bulb we got when we brought him home. Now the lowest temps is 80 (that's actually why I took him out of the table because we didn't have the best heat regulation yet so I didn't want to keep him in there just yet) the tank stays in the 80s without the UVB since it is small but we are looking to get another ceramic element.
> 2. It is the Mazuri LS - is the original the bigger ones? I can get some of that for sure.
> 3. He can't get out of the terra-cotta pot yet (he isn't it just a little too small, he tries often) but I didn't feel anything would hold the warm water and keep it warm like the terra-cotta. But I will try a different vessel.
> 4. I don't know what the reason could be, but I don't want to force feed him but I also don't want him to die because of starvation. It's a double edged sword but even my vet said he didn't want to do more than hydrate and feed him because it can be too stressful. I just feel like he took a turn in a matter of a day.
> ...




I'm sorry you are going through this. You are not alone, and its not your fault. All you can do is offer the best conditions possible and hope for the best.

If there is a next time, this is an entirely different experience when you buy a properly started and well cared for baby.


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## Karrahi (Aug 4, 2017)

Tom said:


> I'm sorry you are going through this. You are not alone, and its not your fault. All you can do is offer the best conditions possible and hope for the best.
> 
> If there is a next time, this is an entirely different experience when you buy a properly started and well cared for baby.



Have you ever heard of skin or scale rot? The skin peeling scares me but I haven't really heard of it unless it was scraped but all the skin has pretty much fallen off his back legs


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## Yvonne G (Aug 4, 2017)

Do you know if the vet gave the animal a shot of Vit. A,D,E? Too much vitamin A causes the skin to peel off, sometimes down to the flesh.


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## Karrahi (Aug 4, 2017)

Yvonne G said:


> Do you know if the vet gave the animal a shot of Vit. A,D,E? Too much vitamin A causes the skin to peel off, sometimes down to the flesh.



Well the skin was peeling off well before this, I thought it had to do with shedding but this it was just white underneath and mostly back legs so not normal shedding. 

This is what was administered:
Day 1:
Calcium Gluconate
Dextrose 

Day 2:
Vitamin A+D injections plus two tube feedings of Oxbox critical care. 

Day 3: 
Tube feeding of critical care 

All three days there was also subcutaneous fluids administered. 

Just got back from the vet - he said he definitely made an improvement from this morning - he is trying to at least move around but he wants me to keep him warm.

Is it okay to leave the UVB light on tonight? 

Thank you - I've all of your comments on other threads related and you guys are really just saving tortoises every day so it really just means so much.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 4, 2017)

Keep him warm but do not leave the UVB on, he needs total darkness in order to sleep and he needs rest. 
You should have a CHE (ceramic heat emitter) for night time heat ?
No more vitamin A injections.


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## Karrahi (Aug 4, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Keep him warm but do not leave the UVB on, he needs total darkness in order to sleep and he needs rest.
> You should have a CHE (ceramic heat emitter) for night time heat ?
> No more vitamin A injections.



We will end the Vit A and we will get a CHE this evening before we turn off the light. 

Thank you guys!


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## TammyJ (Aug 5, 2017)

You are doing great trying to help and save him!
Soaking in slightly warm water is very beneficial. He seems to have suffered for some time from being kept too dry by the previous keepers.
I soak my redfoots every morning in a plastic, opaque sterlite tub with a top cover that fits tightly and has a few holes bored in the top. The water level is a little above where the top and bottom shells meet. In such a soaking situation, you will see the "steaminess" form right away. I keep them in that state for at least half an hour, making sure the water does not get cold. You can add some unflavored Pedialyte to the water too, this will increase the medicinal value of the soak.
I agree, no more vitamin injections!
We are all with you in wishing for his recovery! And if after all you have done he does not recover, it is obviously NOT your fault.
Positive thoughts and wishes for the little chap. He is lucky somebody really cares.


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## teresaf (Aug 5, 2017)

Can we see a pic of your thermometer/hygrometers? Some are very inaccurate and can cause babies to be raised to cold or dry.


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## Karrahi (Aug 5, 2017)

teresaf said:


> Can we see a pic of your thermometer/hygrometers? Some are very inaccurate and can cause babies to be raised to cold or dry.


 I had one of the Zoomed non digital combo ones and read there have been issues with the accuracies so I ordered digital ones from Amazon Friday - two for both sides for monitoring the small quarantine issue.


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## Karrahi (Aug 6, 2017)

Currently Harold is still with us, my critical care comes today, as well as Fluker's Liquid Vitamins. 
He still is not using his back legs, but will move his front legs and they seem more relaxed. 

I found organic Kale baby food that I had placed in a syringe and not made his mouth open but kind of put a little bit on his beak (avoiding his nostrils) and he would chew a little and eat a tiny bit. 

Going to try to get him to drink a little today, but the back legs worry me but I also know it's not going to be an overnight fix! 

I just hope I can save my little tortellini! We go for another tube feed tomorrow and I will be sure to avoid Vit A injections.

Thank you guys again for your help!


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 6, 2017)

The back legs worry me, too.
That's bad and i seem to remember that happening on several occasions before because of the vitamin injections.


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## Karrahi (Aug 6, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> The back legs worry me, too.
> That's bad and i seem to remember that happening on several occasions before because of the vitamin injections.



The only thing that may make me feel better about that is that it happened before we went to the vet and it is actually the main reason I got alerted because he wasn't trying to get out of his soak which he usually does.


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## Karrahi (Aug 6, 2017)

This came today - going to try to at least get some in him - I also got the liquid calcium just incase I can't get any physical food in him (hand or syringe don't want to stress him out too much) but just trying all I can!


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 6, 2017)

Karrahi said:


> This came today - going to try to at least get some in him - I also got the liquid calcium just incase I can't get any physical food in him (hand or syringe don't want to stress him out too much) but just trying all I can!
> View attachment 214873
> View attachment 214874


No one could accuse you of not doing the best you can. 
You're reading, listening, taking advice, doing all that is possible to do. 
Fair play to you. 
Let's just keep sending warm wishes that he'll get better soon.


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## Karrahi (Aug 6, 2017)

Thank you all! He kept on 3 grams today so that's a good sign! 

I got a CHE and it is over his hide, humidity is staying around 85% to 90% with temps in mid 80s!

I was able to softly open his mouth my circling a qtip on his bottom jaw to open and my boyfriend put some warm critical care on in his mouth and then he would chew!

Good lord I just want some good news tomorrow at the vet!


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 6, 2017)

Karrahi said:


> Thank you all! He kept on 3 grams today so that's a good sign!
> 
> I got a CHE and it is over his hide, humidity is staying around 85% to 90% with temps in mid 80s!
> 
> ...


Indeed. 
All the very best.


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## TammyJ (Aug 8, 2017)

Watching and waiting hopefully!


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## Karrahi (Aug 10, 2017)

Okay hi everyone! I am so sorry about delay I took off like three days of work to watch him and that made it so I had a lot of back up work - but last vet visit we were given the prognosis of "turned around" with a two week clearance. 

He has gained some weight! 



From 70g to 102 holding for the past two days.

But this is all great news except he still isn't eating on his own and now he is strong enough to resist my clever Qtip trick and I am STRUGGLING with helping him eat without completely traumatizing him.

I need some tips, tricks, favorite foods, favorite anything! I keep soaking him in the critical care solution with warm water so he is at least getting that intake but I know eventually he will need some solids. 

Legs are still too week for moving around and he added almost half his body weight to already weak legs but he is still moving active and more responsive so positive signs compared to beforehand. 

I appreciate all of your help and support and good vibes just everything! 

I know he is hungry - I just don't know what for?!


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## Karrahi (Aug 10, 2017)

Also don't worry the raid is raid fly paper for windows - not chemicals I realize that's a bad photo to have that corner in it


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 11, 2017)

Dandelions and the like are very popular, often irresistible to many torts, prickly pear pads and fruit are my Tidgy's fave.


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## Karrahi (Aug 12, 2017)

Harold died in his outside soak this morning  

I am devasted and my boyfriend is so upset I think he blames me for putting him in a soak. 

This has been a terrible, terrible experience because I really thougt that he was getting better  

I appreciate everyone's help and hopefully we can heal and maybe try again if he ever forgives me.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 12, 2017)

I am terribly sorry for your loss.
And make absolutely sure his eyes are sunken and he is stiff and certainly dead.
Sometimes tortoises go into a sort of metabolic coma and appear to be dead but can still recover. 
Pull one of his legs and see if you get any reaction.


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## Karrahi (Aug 12, 2017)

We have him under his light and he isn't stiff, just kind of limp  

I have tried CPR by blowing into his mouth and I just don't know what to do 

He under his light right now


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 12, 2017)

Gently pull on the back leg and see if there is a reaction.


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## Karrahi (Aug 12, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Gently pull on the back leg and see if there is a reaction.



There isn't a reaction as much as it just moves the rest of his body because it seems quite bigger


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## Karrahi (Aug 12, 2017)

He just seems puffy if that makes sense like if I pull on his back leg gently his front legs move from it. But he also wasn't using his back legs very often


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 12, 2017)

I would give him another soak, nice and warm and indoors.


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## Karrahi (Aug 12, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> I would give him another soak, nice and warm and indoors.



Should I look for anything during the soak, he just isn't moving at all I have a Qtip in there to hold his chin out of the water


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 12, 2017)

Hmmmmm.
Not sure what else to do. 
He's probably gone, but they have sunken eyes and stiff limbs when they're dead, rigor mortis. 
Have you tried a reaction to the front limbs ?


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## Karrahi (Aug 12, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> Hmmmmm.
> Not sure what else to do.
> He's probably gone, but they have sunken eyes and stiff limbs when they're dead, rigor mortis.
> Have you tried a reaction to the front limbs ?



I think it might be kidney issues honestly, I've read the about bloating and symptoms, it's just like his whole body is filled with liquid and moves when I touch any part of him. 

This is honestly been the worst.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 12, 2017)

Maybe, it must be completely horrible, i feel for you, but you did your best, if he had bad internal damage when you got him you were fighting a losing battle.


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## Bee62 (Aug 12, 2017)

Karrahi said:


> We have him under his light and he isn't stiff, just kind of limp
> 
> I have tried CPR by blowing into his mouth and I just don't know what to do
> 
> ...



I don`t know if your little one is dead or alive, but I hope the very best that he lives !
But what I see is a baby tort with a bad pyramided shell what means that he was raised too dry from the beginning on. The dryness causes kidney issues and mayby bladder stones ( urates that became stones because of dehydration ).
He got a RI and that was too much for this little body.
You`ve done the best to him that you can do, but with such a bad rough start this baby is not able to overlive. 
But I hope I am wrong. 
Please keep us updated with your little one.


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## Maitaimommy (Aug 12, 2017)

So sorry you're having to go through this. I wish I could say or do something to help.


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## Karrahi (Aug 12, 2017)

Bee62 said:


> I don`t know if your little one is dead or alive, but I hope the very best that he lives !
> But what I see is a baby tort with a bad pyramided shell what means that he was raised too dry from the beginning on. The dryness causes kidney issues and mayby bladder stones ( urates that became stones because of dehydration ).
> He got a RI and that was too much for this little body.
> You`ve done the best to him that you can do, but with such a bad rough start this baby is not able to overlive.
> ...




Thank you, I honestly feel like we were fighting an uphill battle and I'm glad, if nothing else, we could give him a fighting chance. 

I am waiting at least overnight before we confirm but it's hard


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## Bee62 (Aug 12, 2017)

Karrahi said:


> Thank you, I honestly feel like we were fighting an uphill battle and I'm glad, if nothing else, we could give him a fighting chance.
> 
> I am waiting at least overnight before we confirm but it's hard



Some battles can`t be won....
But that was not your fault ! 
My fingers are crossed for the little baby.


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## Karrahi (Aug 13, 2017)

He is the same this morning  

He is our little baby and I know in my heart we did all we could but it's just not enough to give me some peace right now. 

We decided last night we definitely want another tortoise but we will just go to another breeder and maybe get a well started one because we are afraid of the hatchling at this point. 

God I feel like my baby died, it's so much more tramamatic then I thought it would be. 

Any recommendations for somewhere to find a quality Sulcata would be appreciated - I have checked a lot of rescues in our area and around (Nashville, TN) and there isn't really anything but I will keep checking. 


Thank you everyone for your help and advice again. I'm just glad we could give a good shot at life. <3


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## Maro2Bear (Aug 13, 2017)

Karrahi said:


> He is the same this morning
> 
> He is our little baby and I know in my heart we did all we could but it's just not enough to give me some peace right now.
> 
> ...



Sorry to read about the loss of your little sully. If you are looking for properly raised, started hatchings, look no further than TortForum member @Lancecham . Hes a well respected sully breeder. Good luck with a new start.


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## Maitaimommy (Aug 13, 2017)

That's very sad. So sorry to hear that


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 13, 2017)

I am terribly sorry, my deepest condolences. 
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/breeders-list.64666/
Contains several respected sulcata breeders many of who will ship, safely.


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## Bee62 (Aug 13, 2017)

Karrahi said:


> He is the same this morning
> 
> He is our little baby and I know in my heart we did all we could but it's just not enough to give me some peace right now.
> 
> ...



What means: He is the same this morning ? When he is dead he should be stiff. If not he could be still alive but very weak.
I don`t want to torment you, but I am afraid that you might bury a living tort.


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## Karrahi (Aug 13, 2017)

Bee62 said:


> What means: He is the same this morning ? When he is dead he should be stiff. If not he could be still alive but very weak.
> I don`t want to torment you, but I am afraid that you might bury a living tort.



Oh no, he is stiff, sorry I should have added that.


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## Karrahi (Aug 13, 2017)

Maro2Bear said:


> Sorry to read about the loss of your little sully. If you are looking for properly raised, started hatchings, look no further than TortForum member @Lancecham . Hes a well respected sully breeder. Good luck with a new start.



Thank you 


Maro2Bear said:


> Sorry to read about the loss of your little sully. If you are looking for properly raised, started hatchings, look no further than TortForum member @Lancecham . Hes a well respected sully breeder. Good luck with a new start.





Maitaimommy said:


> That's very sad. So sorry to hear that



Thank you


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## Karrahi (Aug 13, 2017)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> I am terribly sorry, my deepest condolences.
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/breeders-list.64666/
> Contains several respected sulcata breeders many of who will ship, safely.



Thank you, and I will look at this list.


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## Bee62 (Aug 13, 2017)

Karrahi said:


> Oh no, he is stiff, sorry I should have added that.



I am so sorry for your loss ! 
I hoped so much that he is still alive.... Sorry.


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## TammyJ (Aug 14, 2017)

I am very sorry the little one did not make it. You gave him the best possible chance and he was very lucky that right up to his departure, somebody really cared. Thank you!
We share your feelings, we have all been through similar experiences, I certainly have. Goes with the territory.


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## Bee62 (Aug 14, 2017)

I only have one question : When and why did the little tort got the RI ?
Was it because of too low night temps and high humidity ?


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## Jbrez (Aug 14, 2017)

Sorry for your loss


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## Karrahi (Aug 15, 2017)

Bee62 said:


> I only have one question : When and why did the little tort got the RI ?
> Was it because of too low night temps and high humidity ?



He had it from the day we got him, and I brought him home to a warm set up with bulb so I think it wasn't noticed until I put him in a soak the first morning.


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## Karrahi (Aug 15, 2017)

Thank you everyone, it was a tough weekend but we know we gave this little tort the best chance we could


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## Bee62 (Aug 15, 2017)

Karrahi said:


> Thank you everyone, it was a tough weekend but we know we gave this little tort the best chance we could
> View attachment 215661
> 
> View attachment 215662



RIP little Harold.


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## MrMarg&me (Aug 15, 2017)

I am very sorry for the loss of your tortoise and the extremely difficult time you endured trying to save him. He was very fortunate to have been cared for by you. You definitely took the responsibility for his life seriously. You made him a very honorable grave.


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## TammyJ (Aug 16, 2017)

Karrahi said:


> Thank you everyone, it was a tough weekend but we know we gave this little tort the best chance we could
> View attachment 215661
> 
> View attachment 215662


Awesome!!! Making me cry.


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## TammyJ (Aug 16, 2017)

People like you guys make being human a lot more forgivable. Good to know you are out there.


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