# Baytril for sick Sulcatas



## 2Sulcatas4Nicole (Nov 26, 2017)

I have 4 sick Sulcatas, runny and bubbly nose, coughing. I have Baytril by the bottle since I have 4 that are sick. I’m nervous as I see some bad reviews on it. How do i figure out the dosing and does it need to be diluted?


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## Taylor T. (Nov 26, 2017)

I have no personal experience with it, but I am concerned that you have four sick tortoises. Have you just rescued them from an improper home? If not, you may want to look into how you are housing them. Tortoises don't get sick for no reason.


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## 2Sulcatas4Nicole (Nov 26, 2017)

They are housed outside and their heat lamp blew out without me realizing, so they were outside in weather of about 60 degrees at night for 2 days with no heat


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## Yvonne G (Nov 26, 2017)

I don't like to use Baytril unless a smear has been looked at under the microscope and you're very sure there is something there for the Baytril to kill off. Nine times out of 10, all you need to do is set the tortoise up in a warmer environment and baby him for a week or so and he'll get better on his own. The only time I resort to Baytril is if the mucous turns thick or colored or if the tortoise stops eating.


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## Maro2Bear (Nov 26, 2017)

Just curious what your outdoor setup looks like? Kane heat mats (pig blanket), ceramic heating elements, radiant heat panels, mini oil radiators all better and only "fail" with power outages. 

Hope you get your babies all fixed up. There's lots of good "how to take care of sullys" info here on the Forum.

Best of luck!


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## 2Sulcatas4Nicole (Nov 26, 2017)

They are all inside, separated and under heat lamps. I can always wait on giving the baytril. I just don’t want them to become worse if not treated for it. Everyone on the tortoise groups tell you to get to a vet ASAP for meds so it’s confusing to me


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## Tom (Nov 26, 2017)

Baytril injectable will burn them and shouldn't be used. You need to use Fortaz which is in the same family as Baytril, but it doesn't have the caustic side effects on their skin and muscle at the injection site.

Either way, you need the assistance of a licensed vet for dosing.

The heat in the night box should not drop below 86 degrees for at least two weeks after symptoms disappear. Soak frequently in warm water during this period of higher heat.

The issue you've just experienced is just one reason why I recommend against "heat lamps" for tortoises housed outside. They burn out at the most inopportune times and without warning or notice. What if it had been a significantly colder night? Heat lamps also slow burn the top of the carapace in larger tortoises, and are not effective at heating the later tortoise's core or bottom. Here are three examples of heating that is safer, more effective, and can prevent this sort of thing in the future. This first one works well in a 4x4 box for a single large sulcata or several smaller sulcatas:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/

This box works well for multiple larger sulcatas and the method of heating is inexpensive, long-lasting and reliable:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-best-night-box-design-yet.66867/

This box is similar to the last one, but its divided and has two doors. This makes it easier to separate them if needed, but still only heat one box:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/double-door-night-box.129054/


The mini oil-filled radiant heaters used in the last two only cost about $30 from Walmart:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Optimus-...62769&wl11=online&wl12=37948255&wl13=&veh=sem

The thermostat to run any of these heating products is also only about $30:
http://www.lllreptile.com/products/13883-zilla-1000-watt-temperature-controller


Hope this all helps, and I hope they have a speedy recovery!


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## 2Sulcatas4Nicole (Nov 26, 2017)

Maro2Bear said:


> Just curious what your outdoor setup looks like? Kane heat mats (pig blanket), ceramic heating elements, radiant heat panels, mini oil radiators all better and only "fail" with power outages.
> 
> Hope you get your babies all fixed up. There's lots of good "how to take care of sullys" info here on the Forum.
> 
> Best of luck!


I use the heat emitter bulbs and it must’ve blew out. I’ve heard to not use pig blankets


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## 2Sulcatas4Nicole (Nov 26, 2017)

Tom said:


> Baytril injectable will burn them and shouldn't be used. You need to use Fortaz which is in the same family as Baytril, but it doesn't have the caustic side effects on their skin and muscle at the injection site.
> 
> Either way, you need the assistance of a licensed vet for dosing.
> 
> ...


Love all these heat box suggestions unfortunately I’m not that handy to build unless I can get my neighbor to help in making one. But I would need something rat proof we have the occasional rat here and there running around the neighborhood


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## 2Sulcatas4Nicole (Nov 26, 2017)

Yvonne G said:


> I don't like to use Baytril unless a smear has been looked at under the microscope and you're very sure there is something there for the Baytril to kill off. Nine times out of 10, all you need to do is set the tortoise up in a warmer environment and baby him for a week or so and he'll get better on his own. The only time I resort to Baytril is if the mucous turns thick or colored or if the tortoise stops eating.


I can hold off on the baytril and try your suggestions I’ve just been told that when they have a runny or bubbly nose to head straight to the vet for antibiotics. I surely don’t want them to get worse or even die from it


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## mark1 (Nov 26, 2017)

not advising you on your tortoises care , just let you know if you don't . dosed properly baytril is a great drug , a big step up from Cipro , it's been around and used for decades ...... it's the first antibiotic I ever seen work that well on reptiles , saved countless animals . probably some bacteria around resistant to it at this point , it's been around a long time , used and misused heavily , imo if you use it and don't see improvement within a couple doses , you need something else ......... all of them have possible side effects , dosing is best done by a vet , it can be a mathematical challenge ............


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## Tom (Nov 26, 2017)

2Sulcatas4Nicole said:


> Love all these heat box suggestions unfortunately I’m not that handy to build unless I can get my neighbor to help in making one. But I would need something rat proof we have the occasional rat here and there running around the neighborhood



We have rats and lots of other critters around my place. These boxes keep them all out.


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## Tom (Nov 26, 2017)

2Sulcatas4Nicole said:


> Everyone on the tortoise groups tell you to get to a vet ASAP for meds so it’s confusing to me





2Sulcatas4Nicole said:


> I’ve heard to not use pig blankets



I've heard nothing but bad things and bad advice from these FB tortoise groups.

I don't know how to convince you that we are right and they are wrong _before_ something bad happens, but after something bad happens you will learn what we already know, and those FB groups still won't listen.

Inside under what lamps is okay, but make sure floor temps and ambient temps are all mid 80s or higher until at least two weeks after symptoms go away. This is a heat loving species and they need heat to fight infection and sickness.


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## Big Charlie (Nov 26, 2017)

How big and how old are your sulcatas? Are your inside chambers they are currently in closed and free from drafts?


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## 2Sulcatas4Nicole (Nov 26, 2017)

Big Charlie said:


> How big and how old are your sulcatas? Are your inside chambers they are currently in closed and free from drafts?


Away from drafts yes and they are 2-4 years


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## Markw84 (Nov 26, 2017)

mark1 said:


> not advising you on your tortoises care , just let you know if you don't . dosed properly baytril is a great drug , a big step up from Cipro , it's been around and used for decades ...... it's the first antibiotic I ever seen work that well on reptiles , saved countless animals . probably some bacteria around resistant to it at this point , it's been around a long time , used and misused heavily , imo if you use it and don't see improvement within a couple doses , you need something else ......... all of them have possible side effects , dosing is best done by a vet , it can be a mathematical challenge ............



I would not personally let any vet treat my tortoise with Baytril (Enrofloxain) Just too much is being learned about its adverse effect on chelonians. It can commonly cause a comatose type state with head and legs extended soon after injection. Even by the manufacturer, it is only recommended as injectable for one dose, then orally thereafter. But you see vets all the time prescribing several doses. It should certainly not be given in the front legs as it is quite painful at the injection site. It also can damage good tissue at the injection site. It will also kill off beneficial bacteria and can often lead to death for an already weakened animal.

Fortaz is becoming more the drug of choice (Ceftazidime). It is in the 3rd gen cephalosporin family instead of the fluoroquinolone type of Baytril.

Certainly agree that any drug should be dosed by a vet, and preferably after culture check for effectiveness in that particular case. So many resistances are being developed these days.


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## 2Sulcatas4Nicole (Nov 26, 2017)

Tom said:


> I've heard nothing but bad things and bad advice from these FB tortoise groups.
> 
> I don't know how to convince you that we are right and they are wrong _before_ something bad happens, but after something bad happens you will learn what we already know, and those FB groups still won't listen.
> 
> Inside under what lamps is okay, but make sure floor temps and ambient temps are all mid 80s or higher until at least two weeks after symptoms go away. This is a heat loving species and they need heat to fight infection and sickness.


So you’re saying straight ambient temps of mid 80s and higher along with warm soaks for possibly couple weeks should clear them up without using antibiotics?


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## Tom (Nov 26, 2017)

2Sulcatas4Nicole said:


> So you’re saying straight ambient temps of mid 80s and higher along with warm soaks for possibly couple weeks should clear them up without using antibiotics?



No Ma'am.

I'm saying:

Don't use Baytril. Use Fortaz instead.
Use the services of a good tortoise vet to get the correct dosage and method of administration.
Keep ambient temps 85 or higher 24/7 while they are sick and being treated.
Keep ambient temps 85 or higher for _at least_ two weeks after symptoms disappear completely.
Soak daily or every other during treatment and during this high heat. The hydration will help their kidneys function better to process the drugs, and hydration just helps over all in many ways. Always keep water warm during soaks, by whatever method you like.
The high heat can cure them in some cases if the sickness isn't too far along, but that is a judgement call, and you'd be taking a risk. Of course administering drugs is a little risky too. I can't make this call for you. 

Also, if the vet suggests "vitamin shots" of any kind, I would politely refuse and realize this might not be the best tortoise vet.


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## mark1 (Nov 26, 2017)

well Mark , I've given a large portion of my income in antibiotics to my turtles , tortoises , lizards , fish , birds , cats and dogs ,I doubt you could mention one I haven't used more times than I could possibly remember .......... I've without question given more baytril than any of the others , honestly probably more than all the others combined .....it was all I knew to use for a two decade easily , if comatose , kidney failure , or death is common I am one lucky sob , that's nothing I read ...I have to think it was and is still the most used antibiotic in the hobby ........ I don't think there are many if any antibiotics that don't kill off beneficial bacteria ? at least not any that are worth giving , as far as sensitivities to antibiotics , they can all fall into that category for specific animals ......... baytril was one of the best antibiotics to come along for animals that I ever seen ...... my opinion is if baytril is what the op was given , from my experience (which is a lot) use it , if it's what I had I would ..............


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## zovick (Nov 26, 2017)

mark1 said:


> well Mark , I've given a large portion of my income in antibiotics to my turtles , tortoises , lizards , fish , birds , cats and dogs ,I doubt you could mention one I haven't used more times than I could possibly remember .......... I've without question given more baytril than any of the others , honestly probably more than all the others combined .....it was all I knew to use for a two decade easily , if comatose , kidney failure , or death is common I am one lucky sob , that's nothing I read ...I have to think it was and is still the most used antibiotic in the hobby ........ I don't think there are many if any antibiotics that don't kill off beneficial bacteria ? at least not any that are worth giving , as far as sensitivities to antibiotics , they can all fall into that category for specific animals ......... baytril was one of the best antibiotics to come along for animals that I ever seen ...... my opinion is if baytril is what the op was given , from my experience (which is a lot) use it , if it's what I had I would ..............



Ceftazidime (Fortaz) is much better than Baytril for tortoises with respiratory problems. It is far safer and needs to be given less frequently (every 2 to 3 days as opposed to daily). Basically, it is a "new and improved" form of the Baytril family of antibiotics.


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## 2Sulcatas4Nicole (Nov 26, 2017)

I’ve already paid for all the baytri and don’t want to throw that money away, since I’ve read it can cause tissue damage I was wondering if I could mix it with saline and inject it into maybe a strawberry for each to eat?


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## mark1 (Nov 26, 2017)

zovick said:


> Ceftazidime (Fortaz) is much better than Baytril for tortoises with respiratory problems. It is far safer and needs to be given less frequently (every 2 to 3 days as opposed to daily). Basically, it is a "new and improved" form of the Baytril family of antibiotics.



fortaz is what I've used on the turtles for at least the last 5 yrs or so , it works most all the time , I have needed bigger guns ...... I actually prefer forta over baytril , it doesn't bother them as much ...... but to tell the poster not to use the baytril her vet gave her , now they're debating throwing it out , ridiculous ........ fortaz is an excellent drug , but it is not baytril , I believe one is a cephalosporin , the other a quinolone ? baytril is a big gun as far antibiotics go , some of the bacteria these reptiles grow were in need of big guns it's why baytril was such a great drug ....... i'm going to guess that baytril has been studied in animals , and approved for use , hundreds of times more than fortaz ........


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## Tldmaft (Nov 29, 2017)

Mark1 ..... I was wondering if you had any evidence of muscle damage when using the baytril in tortoises? Abnormal walking on front legs and if so did it last or was it temporary?


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## Baoh (Nov 29, 2017)

> Fortaz which is in the same family as Baytril





> it is a "new and improved" form of the Baytril family of antibiotics



These statements are not correct. Cephalosporin derivatives and fluoroquinolone derivatives are not in the same family. Those named are two different families.

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Enrofloxacin is effective for pathogenic bacterial illnesses for which it is appropriately applied. Ceftazidime is effective for pathogenic bacterial illnesses for which it is appropriately applied. They have broad spectra of activity and there is much overlap for the treatment of aerobes, but some aerobic species are more susceptible/sensitive to one therapy versus the other. Enrofloxacin is not a good option for anaerobes relative to ceftazidime, but enrofloxacin will more effectively treat some aerobes for which ceftazidime is ineffective or less effective. The half-life of ceftazidime tends to trend lower than that of enrofloxacin, but this is a matter of species-dependent metabolism. 

-----

Some species of animals may be more or less suited in tolerance for a given antibiotic or other drug. Tolerance will also vary between individuals within a species.


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## mark1 (Nov 30, 2017)

Never personally seen any permanent damage from it , they do know it can be necrotic to tissue at the injection site , although I’ve never personally seen that either . reactions at injection sites can and do occur with any drug I have used , it’s why you don’t inject it in the same place twice ......... the possible side effects of enrofloxacin are well documented , it’s been used and studied for a long time ……….. your not giving it to a healthy animal , your giving it to a sick often dehydrated undernourished anorexic animal , one that is in the process of dying , any antibiotic can be toxic in that instance …… most antibiotics are cleared by the kidneys , a dehydrated animal is not peeing , which increases the chance of side effects with any drug that is cleared by the kidneys .…… which is a reason not to give it every day or for extended periods of time in any form , and make sure the animal is hydrated to the best of your ability …. I don’t disagree , it is a potent drug and is often unnecessary , a less toxic alternative may work . I think most of the time the vets are guessing and enrofloxacin is not a bad guess …..


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## 2Sulcatas4Nicole (Dec 1, 2017)

So it’s been 3 days now trying to give baytril orally and it’s not working, I’ve watched videos on how to get it into their mouths once I have their neck clamped I can’t get their mouths open to administer it, I also tried adding it to each ones food they take one bite and run. I’m getting frustrated


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## mark1 (Dec 1, 2017)

you have a script for baytril , it had to come from a vet ? whoever wrote it or filled it for you should be able to answer your questions ? as far as giving it to them by mouth , imo , that is a lousy way to properly dose them ....... who calculated your oral dose ? is your baytril 2.27% or 10% ? not to offend you , but judging from your questions it doesn't outwardly appear to be a good idea for you to be dosing your tortoises ? baytril is a potent , potentially toxic drug . administered properly it works well , administered improperly at best it'll be ineffective , at worst it'll be deadly ........


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## 2Sulcatas4Nicole (Dec 1, 2017)

It’s 5%


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## mark1 (Dec 2, 2017)

it appears your do not have a vet for your tortoises ? I am going to assume that an injectable antibiotic has different additives, preservatives , adjuvants , than does an antibiotic intended for the oral route . a 5% solution is 50mg/ml . if they won't try to bite you , forcing a big strong turtle or tortoise to open their mouth without potentially hurting them is near impossible , at least that's been my experience , I would contact a vet , with the lifespan of a tortoise and having 4 of them , I cannot imagine at some point you won't need one , you may actually need one now ........ I see no reason not to start a relationship with one who , if not experienced , is at least willing ...... personally i'm not one who will wait to see if they are going to get better on their own , if I know they're ill , i'm doing something about it , I've never killed one by putting them on antibiotics ......... I do however believe , misused , you can ..........


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## Tom (Dec 2, 2017)

2Sulcatas4Nicole said:


> So it’s been 3 days now trying to give baytril orally and it’s not working, I’ve watched videos on how to get it into their mouths once I have their neck clamped I can’t get their mouths open to administer it, I also tried adding it to each ones food they take one bite and run. I’m getting frustrated


Have you substantially raised the temperatures day and night?


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## Gillian M (Dec 2, 2017)

Welcome to the forum!


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