# Tortoise connections with humans



## tortoisenotturtle (Nov 20, 2014)

Hello everyone, I really want a tortoise. But I recognize the fact that I am still very young and that my little friend could live for a very long time. I have come to terms with the fact I may have to give him/her up someday and I want to know if they could handle it. I will do all in my power to see that it goes to a good home but as far as I know they don't really attach to people they just associate faces with food. How accurate is this and how tramatic will it be for him or her to be relocated ?


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## Alaskamike (Nov 20, 2014)

I think you should read the post thread
*Help! (12yr old wants tortoise temporarily)*
Discussion in 'Tortoise FAQs - New and need help?' started by mizzox, Nov 9, 2014.


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## Tom (Nov 20, 2014)

Reptiles don't care. As long as they are housed and cared for properly, they will be fine. They don't form any sort of emotional attachment.


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## the_newzie (Nov 20, 2014)

tortoisenotturtle said:


> Hello everyone, I really want a tortoise. But I recognize the fact that I am still very young and that my little friend could live for a very long time. I have come to terms with the fact I may have to give him/her up someday and I want to know if they could handle it. I will do all in my power to see that it goes to a good home but as far as I know they don't really attach to people they just associate faces with food. How accurate is this and how tramatic will it be for him or her to be relocated ?





Tom said:


> Reptiles don't care. As long as they are housed and cared for properly, they will be fine. They don't form any sort of emotional attachment.



I think you need to worry more about the emotional attachment YOU will form with your tortoise! LOL!


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## tortoisenotturtle (Nov 20, 2014)

the_newzie said:


> I think you need to worry more about the emotional attachment YOU will form with your tortoise! LOL!


Very very true! Lol


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## Jacqui (Nov 20, 2014)

the_newzie said:


> I think you need to worry more about the emotional attachment YOU will form with your tortoise! LOL!



I agree with this. Folks find a tortoise attaches itself to their lives and hearts much more then they ever dreamed it would or could. As for the tortoise, I think with a few exceptions, tortoises adapt well to new homes and human slaves.


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## Tom (Nov 20, 2014)

I still miss my first box turtle, but I highly doubt he misses me.


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## tortadise (Nov 20, 2014)

Welcome


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## Ciri (Nov 20, 2014)

Yes, they do form attachments. For that reason, it would be better to adopt a tortoise or box turtle who is already an adult, and is in need of a home. Check with your local rescue groups, turtle or tortoise clubs, Humane Society, etc. An adult that needs a home will be better able to adjust when the day comes that you have to move away.


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## mijojr (Nov 25, 2014)

@Ciri I will have to dissagree with you. I agree that adopting an adult _is_ a good idea, however the reason is not because of any emotional attachment. As many experienced members have stated, the tortoise could care less. Also why would there be a difference in the emotional response between adults and babies? Assuming there is one? Please don't take offense, I'm just getting your opinion.


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## Yellow Turtle01 (Nov 25, 2014)

I see the side of this that tortoises DO NOT form any bond whatsoever, you're just the floating hand that brings food out of the sky. 
BUT, I also think that turtles and torts who regularly interact, andor owners who 'participate' in the animals lives, will remember, to some degree, the owner afterwards. I feel like they know ME, (If I'm not here to feed them, and someone else needs to, they react differently) but here it goes with the human emotions of copying and pasting onto torts. 
Many torts and turtle probably won't miss you. 
This is sad, though, because to some degree, if I die before most of my turtles do, I would hope they'd miss me, but then again, I'd want them to be happy and content with another owner as they were with me.
I know I will die before miss sulcata. It'll just happen. But because I interact with her frequently, every day, and sometimes for most of the day, it feels like she recognizes me, as she does treat different people in a different way. 
I know that I would miss them terribly. And that after 60+ years of being in lives, knowing them, caring for them, it'd be much like the death of a child or parent... It would suck. 
No matter how you think about your torts feeling spectrum, everyone will think differently in their own way, and all torts are different.


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## mijojr (Nov 25, 2014)

Good post @Yellow Turtle01. I do believe that tortoises have the ability of facial recognition. I also believe that they may respond to even there name, but as regarding to who feeds them, who cleans there cage, and gives them soaks, I believe the tortoise does not form any strong attachment to anyone. I acknowledge that there may exceptions, however for the most part tortoises would readily take food from a complete stranger.


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## Ciri (Nov 25, 2014)

I rarely ever travel, and when I did go away for a few days in the summer quite a number of years ago, I had a friend who my box turtles were familiar with take care of them. One of those turtles I had adopted at age 5, learning a week later that she had been taken from the wild. (I was very angry about that, but couldn't do anything about it – she needed medical help anyway.) So I was her one trusted human. She had shown that already, by her intense shyness around other people. At that point she'd been with me for eight years. My turtles had seen my friend around, and I'd shown my friend how to feed them, change their water, and care for them just as I normally did. I'm confident that she did everything just the way I had shown her. I called my friend on the first day I was gone to see how they were doing. They would not eat. And the one who I had adopted at age 5, had more difficulty getting back to eating while I was gone. The others, thankfully, started eating the second day. The fact that 4 turtles would not eat for one day, all at the same time, showed that they knew who they were comfortable with, and who they were not quite comfortable with. If this had been the spring or the fall, missing a day of eating would not be so unusual. But in the middle of the summer, they were not skipping meals.

I know sometimes it's hard to tell what they understand. But I find the more that I slow down and observe them, the more I'm surprised by how intelligent they are.


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## johnsonnboswell (Nov 25, 2014)

Mine respond to my voice. They ignore other voices.


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## tortadise (Nov 25, 2014)

I did a thread on this a while back. It's difficult for humans to know the difference between an animal utilizing instincts versus us(humans) applying an emotion, feeling, or parallel comparison towards animals that relates to us. Being human I do the same things sure. But 90% of the time I try my hardest and remind myself that they do, and will not posses emotions. They are instilled with survival and instincts only. 

Here's the thread on cognitive ethology with research findings of animals and "thinking" like us.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/cognitive-ethology.104135/


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## mijojr (Nov 25, 2014)

I believe that reptiles do have basic emotions. I know that I can tell if my leopard gecko is stressed or is content. However as regards to tortoises developing bonds to the owner, they most likely will not have a traumatic meltdown and suffer from depression. They are simple animals and don't require the social needs that other animals such as dogs do.


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## mitsymoo0309 (Nov 25, 2014)

I am going to disagree with everyone else and say that while we get attached to tortoises, it is the same for them! My tortoise stays at my aunties as at home I have a large dog and it is something for my auntie to do! As she is at my aunties, I rarely give her, her food but she always comes to the front of her enclosure when I see her on an afternoon! There you are my side of the story!


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## mijojr (Nov 25, 2014)

I am guessing that she is looking for food. It is not nessesarily emotionally attached, it just wants food.


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## Russianuncletwo (Nov 28, 2014)

Mine is more comfortable when she sees my face (then she'll eat if she's hungry) and knows it's not a predator lingering around.


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## Tom (Nov 28, 2014)

Ciri said:


> I rarely ever travel, and when I did go away for a few days in the summer quite a number of years ago, I had a friend who my box turtles were familiar with take care of them. One of those turtles I had adopted at age 5, learning a week later that she had been taken from the wild. (I was very angry about that, but couldn't do anything about it – she needed medical help anyway.) So I was her one trusted human. She had shown that already, by her intense shyness around other people. At that point she'd been with me for eight years. My turtles had seen my friend around, and I'd shown my friend how to feed them, change their water, and care for them just as I normally did. I'm confident that she did everything just the way I had shown her. I called my friend on the first day I was gone to see how they were doing. They would not eat. And the one who I had adopted at age 5, had more difficulty getting back to eating while I was gone. The others, thankfully, started eating the second day. The fact that 4 turtles would not eat for one day, all at the same time, showed that they knew who they were comfortable with, and who they were not quite comfortable with. If this had been the spring or the fall, missing a day of eating would not be so unusual. But in the middle of the summer, they were not skipping meals.
> 
> I know sometimes it's hard to tell what they understand. But I find the more that I slow down and observe them, the more I'm surprised by how intelligent they are.



Tortoises do not like change. Taking one day to adjust to a change, or a few days in the case of the shyer one, does not indicate some sort of emotional attachment. Move those turtles to a new home, and they will take even longer to acclimate. This does not mean they miss you. It means that they have been removed from where they feel comfortable and safe, and it will take time to feel comfortable and safe in the new place with the new care taker.

No doubt they learn to recognize the body language, mannerisms, care routine and face of their primary caretakers, but recognition due to classical conditioning (food provider) is a long way from forming a "bond", missing someone, liking someone, or having any sort of emotional attachment.

As I said before, if their environmental and nutritional needs are met, they don't care who you are. Your turtles weren't that upset by the change in their routine if they went back to eating the next day.


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## Michael Twohy (Nov 30, 2014)

and if you're gonna get a tortoise, don't get one from a pet store (petsmart, petco, etc.)!


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## Russianuncletwo (Nov 30, 2014)

We must have lucked out. My precious Luna was purchased at a Petsmart over 3 years ago and is as strong and healthy as a horse and a great joy.


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## Michael Twohy (Nov 30, 2014)

Russianuncletwo said:


> We must have lucked out. My precious Luna was purchased at a Petsmart over 3 years ago and is as strong and healthy as a horse and a great joy.


 actually I got my tortoise (his name is Borris, he is my profile picture) at petsmart too! I did tons of research (like, for 2 months) but I guess I never found out how the tortoises get to the pet store..... whatever. He is a hilarious tortoise with such a personality I can't imagine living without him


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## Russianuncletwo (Nov 30, 2014)

That's nice to hear about Borris! Based on the fact they "held" Luna for 24 hours for me by phone and all that that involved, I formed a good bond with the Petsmart manager and reptile specialist who swore their torts were captive bred and checked out upon arrival at their in-house vet station before they are put on display. Other than the fact (3 issues) the manager was not aware of some of the permit requirements by tort owners/purchasers in the nearby bordering neighboring state (forgivable), there were some tort-taboo carrot shreds among the store tort dish food (maybe they think a treat keeps them happy after stress of transport) and I have a strange feeling the "female" that was sold turned out to be a male (if you knew her younger tail, it looked pretty female!), they were very dedicated and gentle handling Luna, went out of their way to furnish me anything we needed for the state and the enclosure they had her in was extremely spacious for a pet store.


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## jeffjeff (Dec 1, 2014)

i don't think for a second that torts form attachments to people. or that they have emotions like we do. i could be completely wrong and in a way would like to be proven so. to think he loves us as much as we love him . i believe they remember things well like who feeds them or handles them and get to know who/what is safe. i'd assume that's the survival instinct in them. Q if they did have emotions and form attachments do you think they would they look after there eggs and hatch lings like birds and mammals do for their young?


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## Russianuncletwo (Dec 1, 2014)

But if so, isn't it an honor and a thrill to have gained their trust - a reptile, 1/50th your size!. There are domesticated mammals that give less and I've also had a fine mutual "same wavelength" relationship with one very typically domesticated mammal, similar to this Russian tortoise/human relationship.


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## smarch (Dec 3, 2014)

To answer your original question, as long as your intent is to keep him for a while before possibly having to give up the tort its completely reasonable. With tortoises living so long it happens at some point or another anyways most of the time. As for finding a suitable home when/if that time comes, your on this site, if you stay and post more you'll come to know people and trust them, we have a section where you can post looking to rehome, and then you'd know from the responses and be able to look into the people who are interested by what they've posted. (just don't be afraid of shipping, I still am but people do it often and will guide you through it). 
My suggestion is look on craigslist and for rescues with a tortoise species of your choosing, might as well give one who needs a home a home right? (plus it'll usually cost less than a pet store with things included)

Now for my statement on tortoises and bonds. I have a bond with my little Russian Franklin, and I like to _think _he has one with me, but in reality that's me putting in human emotion. I know reptile brains aren't made for things like connection, its all about survival, I just don't like to think my Franklin is like that, in act I pretend I don't even know that. See I have Franklin in my life because of severe depression. I have had a few suicidal stages of my life, a few times I wanted to run away and leave my life, but the fact that "he would miss me" is what kept me around. I have a cousin who owns a tort as well, she could care for him, but "he'd miss me" So basically, for me, I rely on the bond and the illusion of it, its part of him being there for me. But I do know its an illusion. 
But I also believe tortoises CAN form bonds, that's not to mean they wouldn't be able to move on to the next home when the time came, but that they recognize their owner as more than just a "food God" and actually do emotionally like them. Have you seen Bob the Sulcata on here yet? I mean that's a bond if I've ever seen one, and the bond I hope one day Nank and I have.


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## Tom (Dec 3, 2014)

Russianuncletwo said:


> ...the Petsmart manager and reptile specialist who swore their torts were captive bred and checked out upon arrival at their in-house vet station before they are put on display.



They are not intentionally being dishonest. They are lied to. They are told these animals are "farm raised" in foreign countries before import. It is a lie used to get them into the country, and their shells and appearance tell the obvious true story. If you can find a captive bred tortoise of similar size and age (age of yours will be a wild guess at best), compare the appearance of their shells. Totally different.


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## Tom (Dec 3, 2014)

smarch said:


> I know reptile brains aren't made for things like connection, its all about survival, I just don't like to think my Franklin is like that,..



We are finding more and more that this is not the case. I've seen field observations of Hermanni, leopards, bowsprits, sulcatas, red foots, and manouria, suggesting that they have "communities" of sorts and individuals recognize and "know" each other. There are some very good accounts of these "neighborhoods" in Wolfgang Wegehaupt's book "Naturalistic Keeping And Breeding Of Hermann's Tortoises". He describes individuals ambling about their territories and stumbling upon neighbors that he believes they recognize and accept. Fascinating reading for me anyway.

They may have more of a capacity for accepting and recognizing conspecifics than we realize. I think they would look at us as conspecifics in some ways. Especially in CB raised animals.

As this relates to the original thread title, it does seem to me that there is some sort of "connection" depending on how we wish to define "connection". I still don't think they "like" or "love" us the way we do them, but they certainly do recognize us compared to other humans that they don't regularly interact with.


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## Dizisdalife (Dec 3, 2014)

Tom said:


> They may have more of a capacity for accepting and recognizing conspecifics than we realize. I think they would look at us as conspecifics in some ways. Especially in CB raised animals.
> 
> As this relates to the original thread title, it does seem to me that there is some sort of "connection" depending on how we wish to define "connection". I still don't think they "like" or "love" us the way we do them, but they certainly do recognize us compared to other humans that they don't regularly interact with.



Fascinating. Bird keepers have told me of their parrots identifying other pets in the home (cats and dogs) as part of their flock. If nothing else, I think the connection a tortoise has with it's keeper is at minimum a degree of trust. When my sulcata sees my wife or me he will stop, seemingly to make eye contact, before continuing on his way. He doesn't do this when strangers come near his pen.


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## mini_max (Dec 3, 2014)

For what it's worth, I was just about to post how I had a really cute interaction with my tortoise a little while ago. I know it was just a combination of instincts and physiological responses, but to me him being comfy enough to interact with me means a lot!


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## Russianuncletwo (Dec 3, 2014)

smarch said:


> To answer your original question, as long as your intent is to keep him for a while before possibly having to give up the tort its completely reasonable. With tortoises living so long it happens at some point or another anyways most of the time. As for finding a suitable home when/if that time comes, your on this site, if you stay and post more you'll come to know people and trust them, we have a section where you can post looking to rehome, and then you'd know from the responses and be able to look into the people who are interested by what they've posted. (just don't be afraid of shipping, I still am but people do it often and will guide you through it).
> My suggestion is look on craigslist and for rescues with a tortoise species of your choosing, might as well give one who needs a home a home right? (plus it'll usually cost less than a pet store with things included)
> 
> Now for my statement on tortoises and bonds. I have a bond with my little Russian Franklin, and I like to _think _he has one with me, but in reality that's me putting in human emotion. I know reptile brains aren't made for things like connection, its all about survival, I just don't like to think my Franklin is like that, in act I pretend I don't even know that. See I have Franklin in my life because of severe depression. I have had a few suicidal stages of my life, a few times I wanted to run away and leave my life, but the fact that "he would miss me" is what kept me around. I have a cousin who owns a tort as well, she could care for him, but "he'd miss me" So basically, for me, I rely on the bond and the illusion of it, its part of him being there for me. But I do know its an illusion.
> But I also believe tortoises CAN form bonds, that's not to mean they wouldn't be able to move on to the next home when the time came, but that they recognize their owner as more than just a "food God" and actually do emotionally like them. Have you seen Bob the Sulcata on here yet? I mean that's a bond if I've ever seen one, and the bond I hope one day Nank and I have.


If Franklin is that important to you, he is getting that much better care than he may get from someone else and you can d-mn well bet he'd miss you for that alone, besides the comfort zone he has already picked up with you. These torts can take a long time to readjust in a changed environment or to a new daddy. I've seen it. They show more appreciation than we give them credit for. Parents say they "love" their infant yet an infant is technically a ruthless living being who just wants instant gratification and doesn't differentiate who gives them the bottle and later in life they don't even remember/acknowledge that phase of their life to even appreciate their parents laborious effort or bonding session. You are making Franklin happy like I am making Luna happy. Luna obviously gets into her neck being rubbed and stretches out more for me to do it. Luna could have been stuck in some box the rest of her life with one soaking a week - we gave her roaming privileges, the food she likes, the supplements, the temperature, the yard walks, the gentleness, the adventures. She doesn't bite or cause me harm either like some animals can that may look more "loving". Activities one does with someone in a form of relationship are different from the other (i.e. spouse, buddy, relative) but they are all true relationships nonetheless and normally worth having. Now I'm on my own with tortoise Luna. You can bet I'm sticking around for her till the very last minute I can.


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## smarch (Dec 4, 2014)

Tom said:


> We are finding more and more that this is not the case. I've seen field observations of Hermanni, leopards, bowsprits, sulcatas, red foots, and manouria, suggesting that they have "communities" of sorts and individuals recognize and "know" each other. There are some very good accounts of these "neighborhoods" in Wolfgang Wegehaupt's book "Naturalistic Keeping And Breeding Of Hermann's Tortoises". He describes individuals ambling about their territories and stumbling upon neighbors that he believes they recognize and accept. Fascinating reading for me anyway.
> 
> They may have more of a capacity for accepting and recognizing conspecifics than we realize. I think they would look at us as conspecifics in some ways. Especially in CB raised animals.
> 
> As this relates to the original thread title, it does seem to me that there is some sort of "connection" depending on how we wish to define "connection". I still don't think they "like" or "love" us the way we do them, but they certainly do recognize us compared to other humans that they don't regularly interact with.


 Wow, every time I think I know such a fact its already outdated. My own fault since I haven't been keeping up, and these knowledges grow constantly. That's actually very fascinating. I wont go too into the topic and take away from the OP but that's a good fact to know thank you!


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## VBgecko (Dec 6, 2014)

Do I think my tort is in love with me and my best friend? Not really … I agree that humans would like to think all wild animals have a deep connection, but they are still just that, wild animals. Look what happened to that moron trying to _commune_ with grizzly bears, or even the even bigger morons in N. Minn. hand feeding bears to _tame_ them and do _research_. Most of the bears are dead by hunters because they now approach humans in search of food. 

I love my dog like a human child, but there's a fine line between giving her _love_ and keeping the order in the pack, because she is a dog and that's how they operate. Do good in the pack? Get a reward. Step a toe out of line and challenge my alpha status? Discipline and put in your place.

As far as having a _relationship_ between Scooter and myself, I think it is totally feasible. But it's one out of need and safety. He's independent, but he has those moments where he'll give into snuggling on my lap on a heating pad. I'd like to think he does it because he loves me in some way, but really, it's just because it's warm, he snoozes a lot, and I'm seen as a positive source for things he wants and not a threat.

He also says hello to my mom more than me when we're out in the garden working (makes me jealous sometimes --basic human emotion), because my mom is out there the most during the summer months and always on _his turf_ not bugging him like I have to do when I need to check up on him or retrieve him because of the threat of severe weather. 

I see it as a friendly hello, but really I think it's a recognition thing, or wanting something more than it's him wanting to be BFFs. 

But Scooter _not_ having a loving connection isn't why I have him. I'm just in love with the tort way of life; the independent nature, the curiosity, the fascination with the science behind the species and its not needing to change in 200 million years of existence (not to mention I'm a weirdo who thinks they are FREAKING ADORABLE!). 

Naw, Scooter doesn't _connect _or _relate_ with his keepers because of a deep love. He does it because he needs me to survive in captivity.

Just my 2¢ ...


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## Kenno (Dec 12, 2014)

Tom said:


> We are finding more and more that this is not the case. I've seen field observations of Hermanni, leopards, bowsprits, sulcatas, red foots, and manouria, suggesting that they have "communities" of sorts and individuals recognize and "know" each other. There are some very good accounts of these "neighborhoods" in Wolfgang Wegehaupt's book "Naturalistic Keeping And Breeding Of Hermann's Tortoises". He describes individuals ambling about their territories and stumbling upon neighbors that he believes they recognize and accept. Fascinating reading for me anyway.
> 
> They may have more of a capacity for accepting and recognizing conspecifics than we realize. I think they would look at us as conspecifics in some ways. Especially in CB raised animals.
> 
> As this relates to the original thread title, it does seem to me that there is some sort of "connection" depending on how we wish to define "connection". I still don't think they "like" or "love" us the way we do them, but they certainly do recognize us compared to other humans that they don't regularly interact with.



It's great to hear this from you, Tom. 

I have no illusions about the 3 CDT's in my yard having any attachment to me, but as a careful observer of their behavior, I've noticed a couple of things: 

Although we say they're not social, there is a bond between the 65 year old and the teenager who was raised with him. The young one follows the old one around. The old one always goes to sleep first, usually in a different spot each night, and the young one will walk around for another 30-60 minutes, then lie down and sleep next to the old one. On occasion the youngest will sleep next to the middle one, but he almost never sleeps alone. 

My conclusion is that the youngest has some kind of bond with the oldest. Also, I recognize my good fortune in that they don't fight! They seem to have their 'pecking order' all worked out.


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## Tom (Dec 12, 2014)

Kenno said:


> It's great to hear this from you, Tom.
> 
> I have no illusions about the 3 CDT's in my yard having any attachment to me, but as a careful observer of their behavior, I've noticed a couple of things:
> 
> ...



I'm seeing some interesting things with my star group. I have 10. 4 from one source (Blue group), 4 from another (Pink Group), and 2 from the third source(Green group). For about a year I had them living in a 4x8' enclosure divided down the middle into two 4x4' enclosures. 4 on one side and 4+2 on the other. All of them were within 4-6 weeks of each other in age and within a few grams of each other in size when I got them all. I have them all marked (blue, green and pink) so I can track their growth and health. The two green ones have lived with the pink ones since day one, but they are almost always hanging out together and away from the pink ones. I am at a loss to explain why they seem to prefer the company of each other to that of other members of their same species of the same age and size, but most of the time when I find one of the green ones, the other is either nestled near him or close by. And at this point they both appear to be male. I recently mixed up the groups, opened up the divider and moved the 5 biggest ones to their own 4x8" enclosure. So now its 5 and 5 in two separate 4x8" enclosures. The two greens ones got moved in with a pink and two blues, but they still hang out with each other a lot. They sure seem to "like" each other.


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## W Shaw (Nov 18, 2015)

Tom said:


> We are finding more and more that this is not the case. I've seen field observations of Hermanni, leopards, bowsprits, sulcatas, red foots, and manouria, suggesting that they have "communities" of sorts and individuals recognize and "know" each other. There are some very good accounts of these "neighborhoods" in Wolfgang Wegehaupt's book "Naturalistic Keeping And Breeding Of Hermann's Tortoises". He describes individuals ambling about their territories and stumbling upon neighbors that he believes they recognize and accept. Fascinating reading for me anyway.
> 
> They may have more of a capacity for accepting and recognizing conspecifics than we realize. I think they would look at us as conspecifics in some ways. Especially in CB raised animals.
> 
> As this relates to the original thread title, it does seem to me that there is some sort of "connection" depending on how we wish to define "connection". I still don't think they "like" or "love" us the way we do them, but they certainly do recognize us compared to other humans that they don't regularly interact with.



I know this is an old post, but I wanted to bump it up a but because it's a really important point. 20 years ago, people thought of rattlesnakes as more less just killing machines. Now we know that they actually have mother-infant bonds and even a male will "babysit" and defend infants. We know that they have lifelong bonds with their siblings, have "friends" of both genders with whom they spend more time than they do with others in the same den. a lone rattlesnake who is relocated will almost always die, but a whole den may be safely relocated if the social bonds are kept intact (such as keeping mothers and infants together, and not separating courting couples). They're also very bright and curious about new things, and capable of advance planning.

It's human nature to dismiss the emotions and intelligence of other species, but almost without exception, every new study finds that the species in question has much more complex language, emotion and intellect than the researchers expected to find. Certainly some species are more social than others, but humans are also often blind to the social behaviors of other species. One captive rattlesnake I spent a lot of time visiting with, when I rested my forehead on the window outside his enclosure, would come to me, and raise himself up to rest his chin where my forehead rested. He was in a separate room, distanced from me by a window, an air space, and the side of his enclosure, so there was no heat issue. He would stay in that position for 20 minutes or more. When he got so old that he could no longer hold himself up, he'd cross the enclosure and press his side up against the glass, waiting for me to rest an arm against the glass. In the wild they do a lot of cuddling, and he had no one to cuddle with, so he'd do his best to cuddle with me, even though there was all that space between us.

It's a mistake to expect that other species think exactly the way humans do, but also a mistake, I think, to assume that they're asocial because their social behaviors are different or more subtle than ours. Even something as simple as choosing to spend time in proximity to another individual is social behavior. I have friends I'm content to spend time with, but don't fall all over them, hugging them, or check in with them every five minutes. There's still a bond there, and I'd miss them if they went away.


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## AnimalLady (Nov 18, 2015)

Tom said:


> Reptiles don't care. As long as they are housed and cared for properly, they will be fine. They don't form any sort of emotional attachment.


I know this is old, but, why do you say this? Is it a proven fact?
This made me a little sad


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## Tom (Nov 18, 2015)

AnimalLady said:


> I know this is old, but, why do you say this? Is it a proven fact?
> This made me a little sad



I say this based on everything I've read and studied over a lifetime of dealing with animals and decades of personal observation.

You may be sad, but your tortoise most certainly isn't.

Do an Internet search for "anthropomorphism".


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## W Shaw (Nov 18, 2015)

AnimalLady said:


> I know this is old, but, why do you say this? Is it a proven fact?
> This made me a little sad




This is NOT a proven fact, actually. If you take a look at my post above, you'll see that more recent studies indicate that reptiles DO form emotional bonds. We don't know exactly what emotions they feel, because we're not psychics. We do know that they are self-aware (for example the recent studies showing that rattlesnakes recognize their own scent), and that they... well. I already said it above.  I'm more familiar with the rattlesnake research than the tortoise research, but they're both reptiles. I'm sure I could dig up some studies on tortoise social behavior, if you want me to. Not all species are strongly social, and solitary species are of course less likely to form long-term social bonds. It doesn't necessarily follow that they aren't self-aware and don't experience emotions. Current research suggests otherwise.


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## AnimalLady (Nov 18, 2015)

Tom said:


> I say this based on everything I've read and studied over a lifetime of dealing with animals and decades of personal observation.
> 
> You may be sad, but your tortoise most certainly isn't.
> 
> Do an Internet search for "anthropomorphism".


Ok, but, they have to grow some kind of love with the hand that feeds them. ..? Have you seen Aldabramans pix? In some of them the torts look pretty affectionate.

anthropomorphism, ok fine, but some animals feel and create emotional bonds. I don't know about reptiles because these torts are the first I've owned but I know dogs and rabbits and they definitely have feelings!


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## AnimalLady (Nov 18, 2015)

W Shaw said:


> This is NOT a proven fact, actually. If you take a look at my post above, you'll see that more recent studies indicate that reptiles DO form emotional bonds. We don't know exactly what emotions they feel, because we're not psychics. We do know that they are self-aware (for example the recent studies showing that rattlesnakes recognize their own scent), and that they... well. I already said it above.  I'm more familiar with the rattlesnake research than the tortoise research, but they're both reptiles. I'm sure I could dig up some studies on tortoise social behavior, if you want me to. Not all species are strongly social, and solitary species are of course less likely to form long-term social bonds. It doesn't necessarily follow that they aren't self-aware and don't experience emotions. Current research suggests otherwise.


Yea, I personally find it hard to believe they wouldn't form social bonds, but I'm not at all experienced with reptiles. I'll watch and see with mine.


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## Tom (Nov 18, 2015)

AnimalLady said:


> Ok, but, they have to grow some kind of love with the hand that feeds them. ..? Have you seen Aldabramans pix? In some of them the torts look pretty affectionate.
> 
> anthropomorphism, ok fine, but some animals feel and create emotional bonds. I don't know about reptiles because these torts are the first I've owned but I know dogs and rabbits and they definitely have feelings!



Recognizing the hand that feeds them, or smelling their own scent, or the scent of another tortoise is not the same as having "feelings" in the human sense of the word.

If you left and never returned, and some other human started putting food and clean water in the enclosure, the tortoise would not cry or miss you. They recognize you are not a threat, and that you are associated with food. This is not a "social bond". This does not mean they don't have some feelings. If you zapped your tortoise with a tazer every time it saw you, it would most certainly feel fear when it saw you again. If you fed it a yummy flower every time it saw you, it would feel some excitement or anticipation when it saw you again.

But to say a tortoise "loves" a person, is a stretch that is too far for me.


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## AnimalLady (Nov 18, 2015)

Tom said:


> Recognizing the hand that feeds them, or smelling their own scent, or the scent of another tortoise is not the same as having "feelings" in the human sense of the word.
> 
> If you left and never returned, and some other human started putting food and clean water in the enclosure, the tortoise would not cry or miss you. They recognize you are not a threat, and that you are associated with food. This is not a "social bond". This does not mean they don't have some feelings. If you zapped your tortoise with a tazer every time it saw you, it would most certainly feel fear when it saw you again. If you fed it a yummy flower every time it saw you, it would feel some excitement or anticipation when it saw you again.
> 
> But to say a tortoise "loves" a person, is a stretch that is too far for me.


You don't feel this way about all animals, right? Just reptiles?


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## Tom (Nov 18, 2015)

AnimalLady said:


> You don't feel this way about all animals, right? Just reptiles?



Correct. Totally different with social animals like house cats, dogs, cetaceans, primates, rodents, psittacines, corvids, and lots and lots of others.

I could tell you lots of cool stories… Here is an old one: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/ethel-the-other-woman.12270/

And another one: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/found-an-old-photo.105501/


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## AnimalLady (Nov 19, 2015)

Tom said:


> Correct. Totally different with social animals like house cats, dogs, cetaceans, primates, rodents, psittacines, corvids, and lots and lots of others.
> 
> I could tell you lots of cool stories… Here is an old one: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/ethel-the-other-woman.12270/
> 
> And another one: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/found-an-old-photo.105501/



Those are really cool pix, so just reptiles, i wonder why that is, its quite fascinating.


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## Tom (Nov 19, 2015)

AnimalLady said:


> Those are really cool pix, so just reptiles, i wonder why that is, its quite fascinating.



Its not _just_ reptiles. There are lots of other categories too. It boils down to an animal specie's intelligence vs. instinct, and also whether or not they are social in the wild.

It is generally a mistake to assign complex human emotions, like love, to animals. That is all I'm getting at. I'm not saying animals don't have some emotions. That is an absurd concept. Of course they do. I'm saying your tortoise doesn't "love" you in the human sense of the word. Having spent years with the higher primates, I'm not sure that they feel what we call "love" either. Certainly they can feel and express emotions like happy or sad, excitement or anxiety, but love might be a stretch.


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## AnimalLady (Nov 19, 2015)

Tom said:


> Its not _just_ reptiles. There are lots of other categories too. It boils down to an animal specie's intelligence vs. instinct, and also whether or not they are social in the wild.
> 
> It is generally a mistake to assign complex human emotions, like love, to animals. That is all I'm getting at. I'm not saying animals don't have some emotions. That is an absurd concept. Of course they do. I'm saying your tortoise doesn't "love" you in the human sense of the word. Having spent years with the higher primates, I'm not sure that they feel what we call "love" either. Certainly they can feel and express emotions like happy or sad, excitement or anxiety, but love might be a stretch.



I guess its more for the humans benefit to associate them with human emotions, really, it makes ME feel better *thinking* my tort loves me, even if thats not really the case, so I understand that... I do believe all animals have emotions, like you said up above, if i knocked on a torts shell day in a day out as hard as I could i'm sure he'd be in fear everytime I came around.. 

but my dog loves me, and i'm sticking with that


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## Tom (Nov 19, 2015)

AnimalLady said:


> I guess its more for the humans benefit to associate them with human emotions, really, it makes ME feel better *thinking* my tort loves me, even if thats not really the case, so I understand that... I do believe all animals have emotions, like you said up above, if i knocked on a torts shell day in a day out as hard as I could i'm sure he'd be in fear everytime I came around..
> 
> but my dog loves me, and i'm sticking with that



We are on the same page now.

Understanding animal behavior has been my career for a long time. I've seen that I have a different perspective than many people. I'm glad to be able to discuss it on a forum like this.


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## W Shaw (Nov 19, 2015)

@Tom , it seems to me that you're pretty much dismissing all of the research demonstrating social bonding in reptiles. I get that this idea wasn't popular 30 years ago, but these days it seems the preponderance of data supports it. I also have spent many years in ethological research (Mostly with chimps and rattlesnakes). I understand, of course, the danger in making assumptions about what an animal is thinking, but that caution goes in both directions. If a species demonstrates similar behavior under similar circumstances as other species, it's a stretch to say, "Despite the behavior being identical under identical conditions, it's not _really_ the same because I don't believe that species is capable of having that emotion." Also, there's a danger in assuming that emotion is not present because one species doesn't display it in the same way as another species. In one of the behavioral labs I worked in, we had a quote from a Victorian professor on the wall to bring that point home to incoming grad students. The quote, referring to dogs, said, "They can't suffer -- they can't even speak English." I think it's really important to avoid getting our own biases in the way and dismissing the research simply because it doesn't conform to our preconceived ideas about the species. I'm not a tortoise expert, and haven't read any recent studies (though I will now, for sure!), so I can't speak to tortoises in particular, but I can say that research supports social bonding in other reptile species.


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## AnimalLady (Nov 19, 2015)

W Shaw said:


> @Tom , it seems to me that you're pretty much dismissing all of the research demonstrating social bonding in reptiles. I get that this idea wasn't popular 30 years ago, but these days it seems the preponderance of data supports it. I also have spent many years in ethological research (Mostly with chimps and rattlesnakes). I understand, of course, the danger in making assumptions about what an animal is thinking, but that caution goes in both directions. If a species demonstrates similar behavior under similar circumstances as other species, it's a stretch to say, "Despite the behavior being identical under identical conditions, it's not _really_ the same because I don't believe that species is capable of having that emotion." Also, there's a danger in assuming that emotion is not present because one species doesn't display it in the same way as another species. In one of the behavioral labs I worked in, we had a quote from a Victorian professor on the wall to bring that point home to incoming grad students. The quote, referring to dogs, said, "They can't suffer -- they can't even speak English." I think it's really important to avoid getting our own biases in the way and dismissing the research simply because it doesn't conform to our preconceived ideas about the species. I'm not a tortoise expert, and haven't read any recent studies (though I will now, for sure!), so I can't speak to tortoises in particular, but I can say that research supports social bonding in other reptile species.


I'm interested to see what you find, if you dont mind, would you share here once you come up with some tort research on the matter?


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## Alaskamike (Nov 20, 2015)

So interesting to read this discussion. Been an interest of mine for many years. There is still, and always will be much to learn


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## MaryandTrouble (Nov 20, 2015)

tortadise said:


> I did a thread on this a while back. It's difficult for humans to know the difference between an animal utilizing instincts versus us(humans) applying an emotion, feeling, or parallel comparison towards animals that relates to us. Being human I do the same things sure. But 90% of the time I try my hardest and remind myself that they do, and will not posses emotions. They are instilled with survival and instincts only.
> 
> Here's the thread on cognitive ethology with research findings of animals and "thinking" like us.
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/cognitive-ethology.104135/


I would like to refer to the book called Wild Justice by Marc Bekoff and Jessica Pierce. It talks specifically about the study of emotional connection between animals. Now I admittedly don't have much experience with tortoises, as mine is my first. But as to whether animals form emotional connections to those who are good to them, I'd say all my experience points to a certain affirmative. Emotions did form as an evolutionary response to social instincts, after all, and the same pheromones and chemical responses are present I animals that are in us. Now, an animal's emotions are not quite the same or as deeply integral in the brain structure as a human's, but they are present.


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## W Shaw (Nov 21, 2015)

My first quick lit scan turned up one study on Gopher tortoises who apparently have the same issues with long distant translocation that rattlesnakes do -- including the issue of not dealing well with disruption of their social bonds and another journal article that I didn't have time to look too far into, but it had to do with reptiles having been until recently largely ignored in ethology. Haven't had time to look too far yet.


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## W Shaw (Nov 21, 2015)

MaryandTrouble said:


> I would like to refer to the book called Wild Justice by Marc Bekoff and Jessica Pierce. It talks specifically about the study of emotional connection between animals. Now I admittedly don't have much experience with tortoises, as mine is my first. But as to whether animals form emotional connections to those who are good to them, I'd say all my experience points to a certain affirmative. Emotions did form as an evolutionary response to social instincts, after all, and the same pheromones and chemical responses are present I animals that are in us. Now, an animal's emotions are not quite the same or as deeply integral in the brain structure as a human's, but they are present.



I can tell you first hand from working with nonhumans who could use human language (American Sign Language) to communicate, that other species certainly have emotions and form close bonds. Of course social species will bond more readily and strongly than less social species, and as an article I caught a quick look at this week noted, reptiles have been largely ignored when it comes to studying social behavior, but that is changing. At one time, people said the same about even primates like chimps, but that's certainly been overturned long since. I've been happy in recent years to see the move toward ethological studies on reptiles. Even my herpetological mentor who was totally into bioenergetics and had very little interest in ethology has shifted his area of interest and is now focusing much more on social behavior. My background is totally ethological, rather than biological, so social behavior has been my thing all along.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 7, 2016)

Tom said:


> We are on the same page now.
> 
> Understanding animal behavior has been my career for a long time. I've seen that I have a different perspective than many people. I'm glad to be able to discuss it on a forum like this.


Did you ever meet Bob? Or read a Bob story???


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 12, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> Did you ever meet Bob? Or read a Bob story???


Anybody who met Bob and I will tell you there was a speicil bond there. It started by socializing him from the beginning.


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