# Tortoises all dead, trader joes cucumbers poisoned them



## rachaell (Apr 19, 2011)

Hello, this is finleafeater/rachael, 

of course my account is banned yet again so here I am with another one. 

This morning I fed all my torts (7 of them) trader joes spring mix but I added cucumber also- I have fed it before as a litle extra along side of the greens and never had a problem. Theyve eaten from this box of greens all week and only today have they had the cucumber. 3 hours later 4 are dead. Im not even addressing how i FEEL right now.. but can someone please tell me what to DO to save the others. 

I just soaked and refed them straight pumpkin in order to clean them out.. but they arent showing symptoms. 

Im losing my mind. 

edit: I washed the cucs and skinned them ( I got 90 percent of the skin off before I fed)

Im about to set trader joes on fire

bump for yvonne, maggie, tom, madkins, kyrah.. 

help meeee


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## vampire5003 (Apr 19, 2011)

Hmm...someone will be able to better help you soon. I know for a fact cucumber and zucchini is a no no for tortoises. I know how it feels to loose some torts.


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## Tim/Robin (Apr 19, 2011)

Wow, how scarey. We have fed cucumber and zucchini to our tortoises on occasion with no issues. So sorry Rachael. I would not immediately assume it is the cucumber, especially if it was washed and peeled. I would be more concerned that the spring mix may have had something wrong and the build up of eating that for a week finally took its toll. One thing we do is change what we feed from day to day. One day it could be spring mix the next red and green leaf chopped. The other thing that comes to mind is NOTHING happens quickly with tortoises. It could have been an undetected illness that resulted in their demise today, not related to the foods at all. The hardest part of losing tortoises is the unknown. It is very hard to know for sure what killed them. A necropsy could be helpful, but it also could be very inconclusive.


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## rachaell (Apr 19, 2011)

The cucumbers must have had somthing on them. 
I just called the herp vet in Anaheim.. he said it sounds like there was ecoli or poisoning on the cucs and that I should be prepared to lose the other two hatchlings shortly. 

He recommended trying to get them to have olive oil, Im doing that now. 

The russians (adults) should be alright. 



Yeah, cucs and zuc are ok for torts.. as long as they arent contamined ( and are moderately mixed with other greens)


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## Tom (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm at a loss Rachel... I feed cucumber all the time and have never had a problem. My little girl loves cucumber, so my wife is always peeling it and cutting it up for her. I then bring the peels to my torts and toss them in with whatever else they are eating that day. We use cumbers from several stores, including Trader Joes. It makes me wonder if it was something else. Definitely sounds like poisoning, but I can't imagine from what. Get someone (not you) to call YOUR Trader Joes and ask them if any other problems have been reported with the cucs.

I'm so sorry to hear this. I'm tearing up for you...

Soaks and pumpkin to flush it out sounds like a great plan to me. You could call a good tortoise vet and ask if there is anything that can be done.


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## CtTortoiseMom (Apr 19, 2011)

I just don't know what to say, I am so sorry. I will not step foot in trader joe's now. Do you have the cucumbers, is there any place that will test them? My mind is reeling and my heart is breaking for you.


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## Jacqui (Apr 19, 2011)

Wow and how sad.    I am just amazed that it would have killed them and so very quickly, especially with the fact they also had greens and you had peeled the cucumber. Are you sure nothing else has changed? No way anybody could have gotten anything into the enclosure? Any chemicals sprayed in the house or even just outside it? You have checked the temps and also made sure everything is grounded?

So far your doing the things I would do to try to quickly clean their systems. I also hope you trashed the greens, because just because one side of the box was good, does mean it all was.

Words just fail me at the thought of what your going thru.


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## pdrobber (Apr 19, 2011)

oh no  I'm so sorry.


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## rachaell (Apr 19, 2011)

I just cant think of anything else it could be. The hatchlings were fed indoors ( both dead) the CDTs were fed outdoors n their sun box (one dead), the russians were fed outside in their perma house. 

I fed the TTs, cut with a different knife. 

Boyfriend fed the others cut with a new knife a few hours later. 

I just dumped out every piece of dirt from their enclosures. 

Im doing everything I can to just not thinking about what is going on.


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## Fernando (Apr 19, 2011)

omg. I'm sorry to hear that Rachael


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## rachaell (Apr 19, 2011)

Anaheim



Carlos Lopez, DVM
Brookhurst Animal Medical Center
1301 South Brookhurst Street
Anaheim, CA 92804
Tel: (714) 776-7387
Fax: (714) 563-0144


I got his number from the forum list. 
he gave me the info and just said to sit tight and watch.


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## dmmj (Apr 19, 2011)

That's a devastating blow, words fail me. I would inquire to trader joes if anyone else has had any problems. I am not trying to be mean but 3 hours sounds a little quick for e coli. My guess would be some type of poison.


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## rachaell (Apr 19, 2011)

Just called, they are looking into the batch numbers


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## Meg90 (Apr 19, 2011)

I would think it was the lettuce. There was that terrible ecoli outbreak on spinach what, last year? Lettuce can have some scary things on it, if not cleaned correctly. Especially if you cleaned the cucumber of 90% of its peel, where most of the pesticides sit. 

My heart just goes out to you. I can not imagine how this feels. I'm SO sorry you and the animals are suffering.


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## Kristina (Apr 19, 2011)

OMG, I am so so sorry. How absolutely horrifying.

I agree that it sounds more like some sort of poison/toxin than e. coli. Being a bacteria, it would take some time to multiply and cause toxic death, although in a hatchling it could happen faster than what I am thinking, and temperature would play a role as well.

The optimum temperature for multiplication of the bacteria is 98.6 degrees. I would suggest cooling the remaining tortoises off, that should slow the growth of the bacteria if that is what it is. If it is a toxin, soaking and pumpkin may help, but if it is e. coli then antibiotic therapy is your only option.

I can't imagine how heartbroken you are right now. My deepest condolences.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Apr 19, 2011)

So sorry.


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## exoticsdr (Apr 19, 2011)

Wow Rachael, so sorry to hear about this devastation...I can't stress enough the need for a necropsy, especially taking the stomach contents for analysis, it may be the only way to prove it was the food. Activated charcoal, orally, may help if it is a poison on the cukes, and in my estimation it would have to be in order for it to happen so quickly,..E. coli would have an incubation period to cause it's damage (i.e. most likely more than 3 hours), though with the very young, who knows. I'll be thinking about you. Doc


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## DeanS (Apr 19, 2011)

vampire5003 said:


> Hmm...someone will be able to better help you soon. I know for a fact cucumber and zucchini is a no no for tortoises. I know how it feels to loose some torts.



Better check your facts...there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with feeding cucumber or zucchini occasionally. 

Rachael...I am so sorry for your loss!


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## Edna (Apr 19, 2011)

Rachael, I'm so sorry to hear about your losses. Can you take one of them in for a necropsy? It would help (all of us, too) to understand just what happened here. {{{{hugs}}}} and I'm going to go hug my torts, too.


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## coreyc (Apr 19, 2011)

Soo sorry


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## Cameron (Apr 19, 2011)

Like Edna stated, the only way we may ever know exactly what happened is to have a necropsy done. Very, very sorry to hear about the loss. I hope the others are ok.


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## OllieInAZ (Apr 19, 2011)

Very sorry for your loss


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## Jessicap (Apr 19, 2011)

I am so sorry


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## jeffbens0n (Apr 19, 2011)

So sorry Rachael.


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## JohnathanO (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm so sorry


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## Torty Mom (Apr 19, 2011)

Oh Rachael, I am soo soooo sorry! **HUGS** **HUGS** My heart is breaking for you. I wish there was something I could say or do. If you want or need to talk, I'm here for you! Hang in there...


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## HarleyK (Apr 19, 2011)

I am very surprised to hear this. I'm sorry about your tortoises. Do you think it came from the spring mix or the cucumbers? I wonder if both of these products are organic, if so then it could be a bacterial infection.


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## Tortuga_terrestre (Apr 19, 2011)

Wow, I know it must be hard...Which tortoises died? I read one of the CDT's...which one? Did both of your Texas DT's die? Hmmm...Ive feed my tortoises cucumbers in the past too... I feed my Leopards Costco's Spring Mix...I never wash it. Do you think the sudden change in weather was also a factor? My big leopard is indoors until the weather clears up. The weather in So Cal has been unpredictable lately.


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## Baoh (Apr 19, 2011)

My condolences on your terrible loss. There has to be some common thread given the time frame. Bacteria would typically take longer to hit like this. A toxin could go either way, depending on the toxin, amount, and duration of exposure. 

My perspective differs on inducing a change in temperature. Lowering the temperature may reduce the rate of replication if a bacterium is involved, but it may also negatively impact immune system function. Additionally, if there is a toxin to be metabolized, assuming it is one that is capable of being metabolized, then metabolism would be negatively impacted by a lowered temperature. I would listen to the vet as well as give lots of warm soaks.

I hope you can salvage the best of a bad situation. I lost a key tortoise to a preventable poisoning once and I still am bothered by the event to some degree.



HarleyK said:


> I am very surprised to hear this. I'm sorry about your tortoises. Do you think it came from the spring mix or the cucumbers? I wonder *if both of these products are organic, if so then it could be a bacterial infection*.



"Organic" status doesn't really play into the probability of a bacterial infection.


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## dmarcus (Apr 19, 2011)

This is horrible news to hear..I am so so sorry!!!


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## Scooter (Apr 19, 2011)

Rachael, I am so sorry to hear this. I am wishing your remaining torts the best please keep us updated on them.


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## ticothetort2 (Apr 19, 2011)

This sucks, hope your others all pull through alright...


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## rachaell (Apr 19, 2011)

One CDT and both TTs. 


I feel completely gutted. The Other CDT babies were asleep when we found them ( in their holes) so theres a chance they didnt wake up yet to ingest the cucs. 

Its not the spring mix, I buy that from costco and have been feeding it all week. Daily. 

I also dont think the weather had anything to do with it.. the TTs are kept under such conditions that it could never have effected them. ie: I watch them like a hawk. 

I got the cucs yesterday, cut it up this morning and then they began to drop like flies. 
The russians ate the cucs... but Im not seeing them having an issue. 

Im thinking because the TTs are so small and the CDTs are so sick they were the ones to go. 

both foods are organic. I am open to it being from something else but I just cant help but blame the cucs as they are the ONLY thing that had changed. 

I called TJs and the Cuc company itself both said they were oganic, no pestisides. 

I dont mind doing the nercopsy, its just the last thing on my mind right now.


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## Tom (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm still totally shocked by all this. I really want to know what happened. I'd like to suggest a necropsy fund. I'll start by donating $20. I'll Pm you for a mailing address.

I hate to have to say it, but keep the bodies in the fridge, NOT the freezer, until necropsy. Freezing can damage the cells to the point of making the whole necropsy inconclusive.

... again, so sorry to hear this... ugh...


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## TKCARDANDCOIN (Apr 19, 2011)

I am really sorry to hear about your loss.I also feed my torts cucumber and zuch. and I have never had any problems in all these years.I am really sorry.....


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## Yvonne G (Apr 19, 2011)

Oh Rachael! I'm so, so devastated by this news. When I saw your subject line I didn't want to open it and read it. I hate that this happened.

Please wrap the bodies in a moist paper towel and put them into a baggie and seal it tight. Place it in the refrigerator. (They'll only need to necropsy one of them, but take them all in case they're so small that they need more stomachs to get enough contents) Call your vet and ask where is the lab that does full necropsies and take the bodies to the lab as soon as you can. I will also contribute a few bucks towards the cause. It will ease your mind and maybe save the other tortoises to know what killed them. It might be something totally unrelated to food. Was the CDT baby ever in contact with the TTs?

I know you feel awful. this is a terrible thing.

(The old lady who gives me the Texas babies every year has asked me to take in her adult tortoises as she's getting too infirm to care for them anymore. So whenever you're ready, I think I may have more TTs for you)


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## TebowHammer (Apr 19, 2011)

I know this doesn't change anything Rachael, but I am so sorry to hear about your loss. I can't even begin to imagine what you're going through right now. Trust that you're in my thoughts and prayers.


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## Isa (Apr 19, 2011)

O no I am so sorry Rachael


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## efciv (Apr 19, 2011)

So sorry. I will PM you also to donate, as the test results could help us all.


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## ChiKat (Apr 19, 2011)

What a nightmare  I'm so sorry girl. I can't even imagine...
Let us know if you'd like help paying for a necropsy.


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## Maggie Cummings (Apr 19, 2011)

I am very sorry this has happened to you. It is very important for you to get a necropsy especially to those of us who have relatives, so we can cancel out anything that might run in the family.


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## Az tortoise compound (Apr 19, 2011)

This is devastating! Our thoughts are with you Rachael.


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## terryo (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm so sorry Rachael. This is certainly devastating news. I just hope that the others will be OK. HUGS!


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## rachaell (Apr 19, 2011)

The Russians are still seeming fine. Ive moved the remaining CDTs into the bathroom ( its like a heat box) 
The vet I called recommend Olive oil so Ive fed that. If they make it through the night I will be surprised. The CDTs were sickly looking when they came to me so its hard to tell if they've got symptoms or not. I actually think that because they have been sickly (and sleeping so much) it may have saved them from the poisoning.. as I think the two sicker little ones seemed to have slept through breakfast.. I usually have to wake them up to eat and kind of nurse them to do so.. but this morning my boyfriend fed the CDTs and Russians while I was at work and he didnt wake the two little ones. The big healthy aggressive one was right there, ready to eat and jumped right on it.. says my boyfriend. 

I cleaned out the russian enclosure and didnt see any cucs left.. so they must have eaten them. 







kjhfalkjhdslkafh;h

CDTS and TTs were never allowed together..not even in the same room. The CDTs were so sickly looking I didnt want them to spread anything, just incase.

necropsy tomorrow. 

thank you all for your kind words. I feel like im in some weird bubble.. like this isnt real. I hate that this happened so much. Those little TTs were.. I dont know.. they were what your little torts are to you. 

Trader Joes corporate called me and left a message saying they were looking into it on their end and would call me back tomorrow. They seemed sincere. 

side note: if anyone can mention to josh about my "Rachael" account being banned I would appreciate it.


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## TortieLuver (Apr 19, 2011)

My thoughts and prayers are with you during this sad time. I think it's one of those things that is hard to imagine and you never think it will happen to you. It never crossed my mind that you could buy an organic vegetable and then have several of your tortoises die. It makes you paranoid to feed any now. Please keep us posted and if there's anything we can do to support you, let us know.


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## Balboa (Apr 19, 2011)

This has me floored, I'm so sorry that you're going through this. Big hugs your way from our family.


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## RianSeeking (Apr 19, 2011)

Oh, no! How horrible! I am so very sorry. What a complete nightmare. I'm in tears for you.


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## Tortuga_terrestre (Apr 19, 2011)

Ok, Rachael I know your going through a hard time. But when I gave you the CDT's all they had was a runny nose which would come and go. I feel your exagerating a little bit.....When I received the tortoises they werent in the best shape...They had soft shells and one had swollens eyes. But I managed to help them get better.. CDT's are not the hardiest of tortoise. Like I mentioned in a previous thread the smallest CDT was acting a little funny since I got I him... Maybe he was carrying a virus of some type..im not sure. I know I sound defensive but you keep stating they were sickly when you received them. I also mentioned to you that they avoided the black bulb at night and preferred the colder side of the enclosure which lead to their condition. Again my condolences, I cant imagine what your going through since I know your a very passionate tortoise keeper...



rachaell said:


> The Russians are still seeming fine. Ive moved the remaining CDTs into the bathroom ( its like a heat box)
> The vet I called recommend Olive oil so Ive fed that. If they make it through the night I will be surprised. The CDTs were sickly looking when they came to me so its hard to tell if they've got symptoms or not. I actually think that because they have been sickly (and sleeping so much) it may have saved them from the poisoning.. as I think the two sicker little ones seemed to have slept through breakfast.. I usually have to wake them up to eat and kind of nurse them to do so.. but this morning my boyfriend fed the CDTs and Russians while I was at work and he didnt wake the two little ones. The big healthy aggressive one was right there, ready to eat and jumped right on it.. says my boyfriend.
> 
> I cleaned out the russian enclosure and didnt see any cucs left.. so they must have eaten them.
> ...


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## moswen (Apr 20, 2011)

Oh that is just horrible! I'm so sorry for your loss...

However I do want to just throw this out there, if your cdts were already sickly, you don't think it could be coincidence that they died the same day you fed the cucumber? Tortoises are very hardy creatures and it (usually) does take them quite a while to die... I have no idea how to explain the other one dying the same day, that does seem to be a little too coincidental... Just throwing this thought out there! I agree with everyone else a necropsy would be best. 

I'm so sorry for what you're going through, my prayers are with you!


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## Baoh (Apr 20, 2011)

As a semi-related aside, I am surprised to see that so many seem surprised that so-called "organic" produce (a misnomer* in and of itself in its contextual application) could cause a problem (and I am not saying the produce is or is not involved in this incident). So-called "organic" produce need only be 10% "organic" to be labeled as "organic" at all, so that does not mean it is free of pesticides or other additive chemicals just because of that label claim.

*Organic refers to being composed of carbon. All known life is primarily carbon based. The meaning of the word, due to marketing alone, has been perverted in common speech to mean something else entirely. Additionally, the (potentially false) implication is that such produce is "better" than its competitor produce.

Now, with that out of the way, I'm hoping the remaining tortoises are still showing signs of positive health.


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## bikerchicspain (Apr 20, 2011)

I am so sorry, i cannot even begin to understand how you are feeling.

The thing is with cucumbers they grow from the humidity in the ground so if the plants have been sprayed with pesticide
or fertilizer then one would assume that some of that landed on the ground where it was later watered and has made its way into the plant.

if that makes sense, just throwing ideas out there..


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## Yvonne G (Apr 20, 2011)

rachaell said:


> side note: if anyone can mention to josh about my "Rachael" account being banned I would appreciate it.



I did this yesterday.


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## HarleyK (Apr 20, 2011)

Keep us posted!


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## Angi (Apr 20, 2011)

Oh...Racheal I am so sorry. For so many to die at the same time makes me think it was a stong pioson IN the cucumber. Just a thought, but they could have absorbed something that was sprayed on a plant near by. Also when 2 chemicals mix you could end up with several new chemicals. It sound like some food company made an awful mistake. I am so sorry your babies suffered. And as a torty mommy I feel so bad for you. Please keep us posted.


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## Angi (Apr 20, 2011)

Oh...Racheal I am so sorry. For so many to die at the same time makes me think it was a stong pioson IN the cucumber. Just a thought, but they could have absorbed something that was sprayed on a plant near by. Also when 2 chemicals mix you could end up with several new chemicals. It sound like some food company made an awful mistake. I am so sorry your babies suffered. And as a torty mommy I feel so bad for you. Please keep us posted.


This is just a crazy thought, but I have thrown cucumbers away because they taste bitter. I was told this is caused by cutting the wrong end. I guess it is a way for the cucumber to keep from being eaten...maybe before the seeds are ready...not sure. Anyway could what ever makes the bitter taste also be toxic to baby torts? I think it is the stem side that is suposed to be cut first, but I could be wrong.


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## Skyler Nell (Apr 20, 2011)

rachaell said:


> Anaheim
> 
> 
> 
> ...



BAD VET! go to tri-city animal hospital on la palma


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## Shelly (Apr 20, 2011)

Skyler Nell said:


> rachaell said:
> 
> 
> > Anaheim
> ...



Doctor Greek in La Habra is supposed to be great.


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## Skyler Nell (Apr 20, 2011)

Shelly said:


> Skyler Nell said:
> 
> 
> > rachaell said:
> ...



I think his office is in Yorba Linda. But yes, I hear fantastic things about him!


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## APBT_Fanatic (Apr 20, 2011)

Shelly said:


> Skyler Nell said:
> 
> 
> > rachaell said:
> ...



Yes, I have recommended him before Rachael. Dr. Greek is an excellent tort vet. Definately take the drive and use him. His knowledge and experience is worth it. Now that I have found him, I will never take my torts to another vet.

I am so sorry to hear this about your little guys. This is so horrible, and very scaring as it could have happened to anybody (if it was the food that did it). I would be beyond devastated, as I am sure you are. Give Dr. Greek a call right away to help the survivors.


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## Kenny (Apr 20, 2011)

Nothing to add but my condolences. So sorry for you.


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## Shelly (Apr 20, 2011)

Skyler Nell said:


> Shelly said:
> 
> 
> > Skyler Nell said:
> ...



Yes, it is Yorba Linda, my mistake.


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## rachaell (Apr 20, 2011)

Hey Walter, sorry if I hurt your feelings but Ive posted images of the CDTs before on here.. everyone knows what condition they were in when they came to me and I dont think anyone is thinking poorly of you at all when I mention their condition. You know that they were sluggish, and what symptoms they had. Those little symptoms are making it hard to diagnose any other symptoms as well. Again, no one is talking bad about you. You also have my number, and my tortoise (bing, for breeding). I wish you would have just called me or texted me if you were upset and I would have talked to you off the forum about it. 


Anyway, 

Back to whats going on here. 

So I called the grower, and then Trader Joes. I guess word got out (I dropped the words "threatened species" a few times) because Trader Joes corporate office called this morning at 10 am as I was preparing to get to the vet. 

They told me that they have since pulled that batch of cucs because they found AMMONIA on them. They while they dont use it on the vegetables themselves it could have been a cleaning agent in the trucks used for shipments.. or on the floorspace of the store. 
Heres where the legal comes in: Since the amount of ammonia on the cucs was not a harmful dose to humans, and since the cucs are not labeled as animal food the company can only offer their "deepest condolences" and a care package. 

Three of seven torts have survived. I think it was because I was able to react on time with the olive oil feedings and soaks. I still do not want to discuss my actually feelings on the matter because I feel like Im teetering on losing my mind here. I will say, if anything came from this .. its a lesson on poisoning and maybe a hint of a remedy.. or maybe it was just luck.


Im completely gutted.


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## Fernando (Apr 20, 2011)

Dude that sucks... What is the "Care Package" they are sending?


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## rachaell (Apr 20, 2011)

I dont know I told them to **** off.


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## Fernando (Apr 20, 2011)

rachaell said:


> I dont know I told them to **** off.




HA! Perfect response.


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## dmarcus (Apr 20, 2011)

rachaell said:


> I dont know I told them to **** off.



That is a absolutely perfect response...


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## Shelly (Apr 20, 2011)

I don't understand how any ammonia used in the fashion they described would remain after washing and peeling the cucumbers.


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## rachaell (Apr 20, 2011)

Ive been googling it a lot, its feasible.. and makes sense that it only affected the smaller ones to the point of death. I also only managed to get about 90 percent of the skin off and if I touched the ammonia while cutting up the cucs...

We dont even keep that stuff in our house its so toxic.


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## dmmj (Apr 20, 2011)

I would imagine if it was in the trucks for whatever reason it might have soaked into the cucumbers. Not harmful to humans but deadly to little torts.

I am only asking this question for information purposes, did you notice a smell or anything while cutting them up?


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## rachaell (Apr 20, 2011)

I thought I did, but now Im thinking Im only smelling it because I think I should. Its so faint. .. Ive been racking my brain. We threw the last one out and I dug it out of the trash with the box and I cant tell a difference.


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## Laura (Apr 20, 2011)

hey,, a week or so ago.. maybe less. someone posted about losing a little tort.. it ate great that morning then was found dead... 
anyone recall that? who? I wonder where they live and what they fed that morning....
Im still in shock over reading this...


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## Fernando (Apr 20, 2011)

Yeah I remember reading that thread. It said something like they could'nt keep his spirits up or something like that...

scratch that...i just found the thread I was referring to. That person was from Texas


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## lynnedit (Apr 20, 2011)

It hit your torts so fast, it had to be a toxin, like the ammonia. I think most of the people on the forum are very stunned. You must feel like a Tsunami hit you, I cannot imagine what you are going through; shock, most likely.
You reacted quickly and efficiently to this, and I cannot see that there is anything else you could have done. I appreciate your sharing the process, awful as it was, so that if anything like this happens, those of us with less experience at least have some idea of what to try.
I will keep you in my thoughts.


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## Madkins007 (Apr 20, 2011)

I'm sorry for your loss. 

In an odd way, I am sort of relieved that it was a contaminate. That means that it was nothing you did, or that there is anything wrong with your cares, or in your (previous) choice of stores, etc. This was one of those horrible things that can happen to anyone, anytime. 

It is not a lot of comfort, but I find it sometimes helps with the grieving process a bit.


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## Zouave (Apr 20, 2011)

My deepest sympathies.


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## Jacob (Apr 20, 2011)

Deeepest sympathies go out to you,
and great response to trader joes!


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## oscar (Apr 20, 2011)

Rachael it has been so sad to hear what has happened to your tortoise's. So I am wondering by me having to buy by tortoise food from the store during the winter, if ammonia was to get on any of the food that we buy, would soaking it in water remove the ammonia or once exposed to the ammonia would it permanently stay in the food item. Also if the cucumbers that you had were not used for a certain length of time would the ammonia dissipate out of them?? You may not know but it would sure be helpful to myself and others if someone had the answer to the above.


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## TortieLuver (Apr 20, 2011)

I can't believe that's the response that they are sticking to. Clearly they don't get it or truly care. We as tortoise owners rely on fresh, clean food and trust in these companies to offer an edible food. Who would of thought that it was okay to have a small amount of something toxic on food and then sell it, especially Trader Joes. I think we are all just shocked that this could happen. I can't believe even after washing and peeling, it was still there. It's like it soaked through the cucumber??? Maybe you should contact a local news company. I know ours here allows you to report and tell your side and they will look into it. If anything, it will help get the word out because most tortoise owners buy commerical foods and wouldn't imagine this happening. What if there are others even though the so-called batch was pulled. It's a lesson for all of us to learn, but the question is...if you cleaned and peeled them, how could this be prevented if the same thing happened besides just not giving it? It's not right and they seem to be sweeping it under the table!


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## 68merc (Apr 20, 2011)

I don't know what to say. We will be rethinking where and what produce out babies get.


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## Tom (Apr 20, 2011)

I'm not buying the ammonia thing. First of all who cleans a truck with ammonia? If anything you'd use bleach or a commercial product in a truck for hauling human food. Ammonia is not the best cleaner or disinfectant for such a situation. Secondly, its just not THAT toxic, especially in the tiny trace amounts that would have been present in the way you fed it. You know, washed and peeled. Something is not adding up. I still hope you do a necropsy. I know through the grapevine the Dr. Greek is an excellent tortoise vet. A bunch of us are ready to help pay for it.


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## Angi (Apr 20, 2011)

Yes we really need to know what killed these poor babies. If money is a problem PM me your address and I can kick in $10.00 for thenecropsy. 
Rachelle my heart goes out to you. I just can't imagine going through something so awful.


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## Jacqui (Apr 20, 2011)

dmmj said:


> I would imagine if it was in the trucks for whatever reason it might have soaked into the cucumbers. Not harmful to humans but deadly to little torts



As a trucker myself, I will say we do not use ammonia in our trucks. Second, cucumbers are not floor loaded onto trucks from the producers to the stores. They would be in either cardboard or plastic boxes, which are then sitting on pallets. So even if ammonia was in the truck, it would never touch the cucumbers.


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## Tom (Apr 20, 2011)

I'm a little overly anxious about this for many reasons.
1. Rachel is my tortoise forum friend and her suffering kills me.
2. I'm terribly afraid of the same thing happening to any of my 20 or so babies, with 2 or 3 dozen more soon to hatch.
3. My little girl (the human one) eats those TJ's cucumbers regularly. If there is something wrong with them, I want to know about it.
4. Their explanation does not hold water and it sounds like they want you (Rachel) to just drop the matter. This ALARMS me. A LOT.


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## Angi (Apr 20, 2011)

If something kills a tort that quick I think longterm it could do damage to humans too. We just don't see the damage as soon that our food is doing.
Again Rachelle I just can't say it enough. You are a great torty mom and I feel so bad for you.


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## Jacqui (Apr 20, 2011)

What amazes me is this place must be the only food place that thinks animal grade food should be a higher quality then human food.

Tom, scares me too for all the same reasons, even tho we don't have a Trader Joe's in our area. I think everybody is currently really wondering every time we feed our own tortoises any thing from a store.

I just can't see where they would not be thinking, "Hey, if it can kill a tortoise, what about babies, the very old, and the sick folks who buy from us?"

Personally, I see them doing the old "cover our own ***** and blame everybody else" routine. They are worried about a lawsuit. I do hope you saved the cucs and any removed skin and do get the tortoises tested too. Money can't bring back your animals, but it can pay for the costs your going thru right now and more importantly perhaps make them more aware for the future.

Have you contacted any health department or even ag departments?


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## Madortoise (Apr 20, 2011)

My jaw dropped reading this thread...I'm vicariously traumatized by all this.
I'm soo sorry, Rachael, for your losses. Though it might be hard...try not to blame or harbor guilt for yourself. The other torts need you now. I'm rooting for the surviving tortoises.


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## godofthelazy (Apr 20, 2011)

I don't post very often but I spend most of the day passing the time by reading these forums and I just wanted to give you my condolences on your losses. 
I think you should pursue TJ. They said that it doesn't say it is for pets, but I also doubt it says not fit for animal consumption or anything like that. You could go with the premise of how caution hot got put on coffee cups, except in this case it actually should be there. Just throwing my two cents in.


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## dmmj (Apr 20, 2011)

I think she will have to wait until a necropsy is done to see what actually killed them, then if TJ is responsible then go for it, but please don't bring up the coffee is hot lawsuit, to justify anything, it always makes me cringe


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## HarleyK (Apr 21, 2011)

Im not sure I understand what Trader joes said. They sprayed cucumbers with ammonia but they were peeled before they were fed so how did ammonia seap into the vegetables. And how does Tjs know that the amount of ammonia is safe for human levels. I say keep those vegetables and do some lab tests. This could be a potential law suit.


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## Shelly (Apr 21, 2011)

HarleyK said:


> This could be a potential law suit.



At best it would be a small claims suit. The law views pets as property, nothing more. The desert tortoises have zero economic value, because they cannot be bought or sold. You can sue for the monetary value of any animals lost, and any Vet bills, etc, but that's it.


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## yagyujubei (Apr 21, 2011)

Tom said:


> I'm not buying the ammonia thing. First of all who cleans a truck with ammonia? If anything you'd use bleach or a commercial product in a truck for hauling human food. Ammonia is not the best cleaner or disinfectant for such a situation. Secondly, its just not THAT toxic, especially in the tiny trace amounts that would have been present in the way you fed it. You know, washed and peeled. Something is not adding up. I still hope you do a necropsy. I know through the grapevine the Dr. Greek is an excellent tortoise vet. A bunch of us are ready to help pay for it.
> 
> I agree with Tom, also it is my understanding that supermarket cucumbers are coated with wax, so no soaking in. The whole cleaning his truck with ammonia doesn't sit right with me. Are they saying that he decided to disinfect his truck while it was full of cukes? If you get a necropsy, ammonia would be easy to detect, I would imagine. I think it's something else.


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## coreyc (Apr 21, 2011)

I don't want to sound unsympathetic I think it is horribly but your bashing Tjs talking about a law suit let's wait till she has a necropsy done to find out what was the cause for this tragedy no body even know if it was the cuc's but without a necropsy know one really knows like Tom said something does not add up here


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## Lisa Anne (Apr 21, 2011)

She needs to report this to the USDA. Not everyone, myself included, peels cucumbers. Since the TJ rep confirmed the cross-contamination there needs to be an investigation.


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## Neal (Apr 21, 2011)

I'm on the same page as Corey. I think it's terrible, but let's not be too quick to blame Trader Joe's. From the circumstances described, it seems probable that TJ's is at fault here, but until the narcropsy is done then we just don't know. I don't think bashing TJ's without concrete evidence, and talking about lawsuits on a public forum is a good idea...I'll just leave it at that.


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## Tom (Apr 21, 2011)

Lisa Anne said:


> She needs to report this to the USDA. Not everyone, myself included, peels cucumbers. Since the TJ rep confirmed the cross-contamination there needs to be an investigation.



I agree with Lisa Anne here. What happened to Rachel's torts is a terrible tragedy that all of us are particularly sensitive to, but TJ's has admitted fault and there is clearly something wrong with their food. Rachel's poor tortoises served as the proverbial canary in a coal mine. I never want to see tortoises die. I spend hours a day on this forum trying to prevent just that, but if they are selling contaminated food to the public, food that I feed to the most wonderful little girl that ever lived (mine), its time to bring in the authorities. That's what the USDA is for.

Like Neal, I also do not want to defame anyone's good name, but they admitted finding ammonia in their food. We all know how these things work. They have to protect their a**. They are not going to come out and say "Oh by the way, a loader spilled some chemicals on one palette of cucumbers, but we decided to sell it anyway."

The necropsy and tox report will tell the story here. With out it, there is not much to go on, other than opinions and feelings. Even without the tox report, there "appears" to be a contamination problem, by TJ's own admission, and I'd like to see the heavies get in there and investigate. If this is not TJ's fault and there is nothing wrong with their food, a USDA investigation should demonstrate that.


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## Baoh (Apr 21, 2011)

Ammonia is pretty volatile. It is often used in certain types of food processing (think processed chicken patties, nuggets, surimi, and others, depending on the particular process) to no ill effect. It would not have stayed on cucumbers to any appreciable degree unless they were sopping with it or injected with it and neither of those should be the case for any reason.


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## Neal (Apr 21, 2011)

I'm not sure they admitted fault, they only admitted to finding amonia on the cucubers right? I wonder to what extent this was actually tested. Either way this still doesn't prove the cause of death in the tortoises, or an acceptance of responsibility on TJ's behalf. If the narcropsy comes back as "ammonia poisoning" or whatever, then that would be some good ammo to take to the USDA.


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## vampire5003 (Apr 21, 2011)

Well in my opinion Trader Joe's should not ever spill chemicals on food. My daughter loves cucumber and I would be devastated if she passed out or got hurt all because some trucker spilled ammonia! What I think happened IMHO, is that the tortoises had been a little sensitive (due to the runny nose or maybe the immune system was a little lower) and when they ate the cucumber with ammonia it could have hurt them to the point of death. Maybe there was another chemical on it? I would say don't thrash TJ's any more UNLESS it is their fault. I would get that necropsy done, lot's of people are willing to donate in case if money is a issue. I could probably donate $5 or $10 dollars as well. I know how it feels to love a tortoise and them have it die. It sucks and is a terrible feeling. 

PS: I would personally get that necropsy done ASAP then if it was chemical poisoning of ANY kind I would take this to court.


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## ChiKat (Apr 21, 2011)

I know you said you had a necropsy scheduled, did you get it done?


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## vampire5003 (Apr 21, 2011)

ChiKat said:


> I know you said you had a necropsy scheduled, did you get it done?



I don't think she has got it done yet. She could have though since we haven't seen her on the forum much today?


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## Tortuga_terrestre (Apr 21, 2011)

Were the cucumbers washed throughly before being served ???? I personally dont wash the spring mix I buy from Costco. But if it doesnt grow in your backyard and even then...you should wash everything you eat....We dont know where our food comes from or how its transported. I do know all produce carrying trailers have to sanitize their trailers with bleach to avoid mold and other bacterias from growing. My father owns a trucking company (Not hauling produce) and he has to endure strict laws and regulations set by state. I imagine for truckers hauling produce their list of rules is endless....... The contamination could have happened anywhere from where it was grown to your house....


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## Maggie Cummings (Apr 21, 2011)

I could be off base here, but I think a gross necropsy is just a matter of looking at stomach contents and a visual scan of the organs. Necropsy's really don't show much. Unless she got the animals to the Vet over night a toxicology won't show anything either..

IF the trailer was cleaned it would have happened before the pallets were loaded. To my knowledge the only things loaded right into the trailer are potatoes and carrots and that happens right in the field. The trailer IF cleaned was sprayed with bleach not ammonia.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 21, 2011)

A "gross" necropsy is only a vet cutting open the animal and having a look at the inside. A full necropsy tests the fluids and does a thorough job. Most vets can't do a full necropsy. That's why I suggested for Rachel to find out where the lab is and take the bodies to the lab.


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## rachaell (Apr 21, 2011)

Hello, sorry I havent been around all day. To complicate things the internet and most of the power had been shut off in my area of long beach today. 

I am afraid to disappoint you but apparently I cant do anything right:

Once TJs called, I took the torties out back and made them a sweet little grave. I wasnt thinking "LAWSUIT and anger".. just hurt and wanting to bury my babies. A few hours later I was at work and looking at your responses( via iphone) and votes to get the necropsy done. I called Dr. Greek and told him I couldnt be home until 5pm but I wanted to bring them in. (I switched to Dr. Greek after you guys mentioned the other vet being bad) He said that he would be out of the office by then since I work in Downtown LA, live in Long Beach, and his office is over an hour away. It would be a solid 36 hours before being able to get them to his office. He told me that after just 24 hours of being refrigerated the necropsy could give skewed results and since they spent time in the ground, about 8 hours, plus the time he could get me in that he felt like "I would not get what I was looking for and would end up wasting a lot of money". 
I spoke to him for a long while. He also agreed that the ammonia(or any) poisoning is viable considering the symptoms and would affect the little ones quickly. 

Ive been thinking about it a lot, obviously, and theres no doubt in my mind TJs has taken every measure on their end( tests or no tests) and said to me exactly what they needed to in order to escape any liability. They were the ones who offered up the ammonia diagnosis, it could have been more, but they did tell me some poison was on the cucs. which was enough for me to believe that was what hurt the torts. I dont want you to think Im blowing it off and not fighting for my babies but this whole thing has me emotionally drained especially since Im just getting over the shingles from the last week or so. Im very angry and I will not be shopping there again, but I believe this was some sort of freak accident. Its horrible and so horribly heart breaking. 

Ill be stepping back from the forum for awhile. 
Thank you all. 

Please note what I used to save my remaining torts, incase any of yours ingest something toxic. Before you go to the vet that is.


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## ChiKat (Apr 21, 2011)

Good advice sisters 

I hope you're doing okay Rachael *hugs*


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## oscar (Apr 21, 2011)

ammonia is used as a refrigerant, wonder if TJ uses it in there coolers, of course it would only pose a problem if there was a leak.


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## Baoh (Apr 21, 2011)

I am wishing you and your surviving tortoises the best. Please take care, whatever you do.


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## John (Apr 22, 2011)

oscar said:


> ammonia is used as a refrigerant, wonder if TJ uses it in there coolers, of course it would only pose a problem if there was a leak.



ammonia has been pretty much phased out in refrigeration,not likely to be found in a grocery store.


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## Isa (Apr 22, 2011)

Racheal, we totally understand why the first thing you thought about was burying your babies... Take care of you xxx


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## Angi (Apr 22, 2011)

I am not in to law suits and understand how emotionaly taxing this has been for you. My family is going through a loss right now, my nieces husband. And a human is a bit different ,but they were still your babies. Any way I am so sorry for you. R.I.P. little torts<3


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## kimmer (Apr 22, 2011)

This is such a sad and unfortunate story. My tortie has lots of wild weeds to eat but they don't last through the entire summer. I am going to get the tortoise mix seeds from Carolina Pet Supply. Growing my own seems the safest and healthiest bet. 

I feel so bad for Rachael. Hope her remaining torts are healthy and give her comfort. R.I.P. little torts <3


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## Speedy Gonzales (May 2, 2011)

rachaell said:


> I just cant think of anything else it could be. The hatchlings were fed indoors ( both dead) the CDTs were fed outdoors n their sun box (one dead), the russians were fed outside in their perma house.
> 
> I fed the TTs, cut with a different knife.
> 
> ...





Hi,

Im sorry to hear of your loss, however are these all Hatchling Tortoises or were the 7 all well established older Tortoises? I'm asking this cas I feed Cumcumber almost every week. Why is it bad for them? 
Oh and why haves your account been banned?


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## John (May 2, 2011)

Speedy Gonzales said:


> rachaell said:
> 
> 
> > I just cant think of anything else it could be. The hatchlings were fed indoors ( both dead) the CDTs were fed outdoors n their sun box (one dead), the russians were fed outside in their perma house.
> ...





This is an old post, I believe they were all less than a year old, and the thought was that something was in the cucs that caused this but we will never know for sure, Iwill say that one batch got recalled shortly after this in like 9 states for salmonella, California was not on the list though.


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