# "best" first tortoise?



## Tortugadad (Jan 28, 2021)

Dad I want a pet. 

Definitely the scariest words in the English language. 

So my questions for the esteemed members of this forum:

What breed of small tortoise would make the best pet for a 9 y/o boy? 

Considering both personality and ease of care is there any breed that would be a good choice? We live in New York City with cold winters so the tortoise would be living indoors. 

As I expect I will be the primary care giver for the tortoise for the next two to three decades (at which point I hope to gift the tortoise to any future grandkids while chuckling evilly) I would also appreciate advice on the best enclosure and set up with a focus on simplicity and low maintenance. 

So for all you experienced tortoise parents if you were starting from nothing how would start off? 

What type of tortoise is diurnal, friendly (for a reptile) and hardy? ( I was attracted to the pancake tortoise but I admit to being a total noob. Extra credit if you can recommend a reputable breeder)

Once you have selected a type of tortoise how would you set up the habitat to make care simple? 

I know caring caring for a tortoise takes a lot of time and money but I was looking for recommendations based on your experience on the best way to do it and I would willing be to invest money now to save time and effort later. Once again recommendations regarding brands and vendors is appreciated. 

I do not expect everyone to agree but I do want to take advantage of the experience you have had caring for tortoises. 

Thank You


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## TeamZissou (Jan 28, 2021)

Kudos for thinking this through before just buying something!

Ultimately, it's better to get whatever species YOU would like. It's going to live for a long time, and most likely your kid won't take it with him when he moves out, as you have already recognized. Getting a typical 'first' tortoise species is an option, but if you're willing to put in the time and effort to learn what care is needed for whatever species you'd like, you can make it work, such as a pancake for example.

Typical (smaller) 'first' tortoise species are:

Russians
Hermanns
Marginated (underrated as a first tortoise)
Greeks (various subspecies)
Tortoises are diurnal by nature.

You can also think about getting a hibernating/brumating species that you can eventually keep outside full-time and put to bed for the winter.

If you are truly a NY resident, you can also go straight for a Radiated tortoise since they're available in your state, which is not true everywhere. This is by no means a typical 'first' tortoise (and are on the larger size) but they are said to have great personalities and rewarding to keep.

There are many care sheets for different species. You should just read about all different types that are available and research here on the forum accordingly. There is a lot of bad info out there; this forum is your best source of info.


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## Aloysius Taschse (Jan 28, 2021)

I would suggest a greek or russian tort. I'm NOT an expert, so I don't know much about these tortoises, but you can probably find information on this site that is correct. Again, i'm no expert, but from my experience with my long lost russian Hermin they are a hardy, friendly, and easy to care for tortoise. 

I don't know any russian breeders but if you're looking for one don't go to any old website. Some are extremely overpriced. Others are not well started and might get sick. 

I'm sure someone knows of a Russian breeder but for now look for information on this site about small torts like the ones Team Zissou listed. Hopefully the 9 year old gets a good tort who becomes a good friend and companion!


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## queen koopa (Jan 28, 2021)

Tortugadad said:


> Dad I want a pet.
> 
> Definitely the scariest words in the English language.
> 
> ...


How much space do you have to work with? Baby tortoise are raised in small closed chamber enclosures (due to the fact that they require high humidity) like Rubbermaid tubs, but then must be upgraded. Minimum space requirements for adult Hermans is 8ft by 4ft enclosure and thats the smallest requirements for any tortoise. Common misconception is that tortoise live in glass cages... this is the worst for them. The way to make your life easier with tortoise is to go as big as you can for their enclosure and grow its food. Like most animals, movement keeps their insides in good shape. 

OR think of a different pet. How about lizards? I’ve heard the blue tongue skinks are great pets!


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## ArmadilloPup (Jan 28, 2021)

There's also captive-bred box turtles. Their temp/high humidity is more similar to a redfoot, but boxies don't get much bigger than "hamburger" size. And you can feed it worms ?


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## Tortugadad (Jan 28, 2021)

I appreciate all the feed back.

Space is definitely an issue the area I was planning on using is 30 by 60 inches so i was looking for a small species and the since the average temperature in the home is around 68' F in the winter a tortoise table would not be suitable. 

I was expecting to use a PVC or similar type enclosure with heat and uv lamps but I was hoping for good options that did not require to master electrical engineering. 

I did consider a blue tongue skink unfortunately my wife is more comfortable with with tortoises than lizards. I was also hoping for species that does not require live food.

thanks


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## ZEROPILOT (Jan 28, 2021)

Welcome.
The "best" tortoise for you certainly comes down to what your situation is. Your location. The space you have. Where you hope to keep the animal, actual costs, if you can provide the needed equipment and availability.
A lot of tortoises get purchased without consideration of what it actually requires to own such an animal. Or of the size enclosure an adult will require.
You are very wise in doing your research first.
Best of luck to you!


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## Tortugadad (Jan 28, 2021)

Thanks I am trying to avoid repeating the common mistakes others have made so i can make new interesting and unique owns. 

One of of the biggest barriers so far seems to be space so I hope someone has suggestions as to a species that would be happy in a 2 1/2 by 5 foot area.


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## Tom (Jan 28, 2021)

Tortugadad said:


> Space is definitely an issue the area I was planning on using is 30 by 60 inches so i was looking for a small species and the since the average temperature in the home is around 68' F in the winter a tortoise table would not be suitable.


30x60 inches is too small for an adult of any species. If you can't make more room than that, you'll have to consider some other pet. Tortoises need lots of room to roam about in their enclosures. 68 F would be fine for any of the Testudo species at night and during the day too, as long as there is a heat lamp to warm up under.

Here is the care info for the species we've been talking about:





The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise


I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...




tortoiseforum.org





Pancake tortoises don't meet your requirements as they tend to be shy and reclusive in most cases.


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## Tortugadad (Jan 28, 2021)

Ok thanks is a two level enclosure viable? Height is less of an issue than length.


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## Lyn W (Jan 29, 2021)

Whatever you get check here before buying pet shop equipment that is often unsuitable and unsafe, We can save you a lot of money by helping you by the right stuff to start with and cheaper options.
Just bear in mind that pet stores are in the business for profit and don't necessarily know anything about tort care.


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## Maggie3fan (Jan 29, 2021)

I personally would not get any type of pet for a kid so young, as it will teach him that he can have a pet and not take care for it himself. Get a hamster or gerbil. Small, cute, easy to care for and the animal will respond to his caregiver, bond with him, and teach him that taking care of an animal and having that animal grow to be healthy and loving to your son, and then he has a whole wonderful world of loving and caring for animals.
I am a mother, a grandmother and a great grandmother, you said you would take care of the tortoise. Already you are taking the responsibility of a pet away, and doing it yourself?
I mean no disrespect, it's just my opinion. Welcome and if you do get a tortoise after all, get a Hermanni we have a breeder and a pretty smart guy HermanniChris


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## MNGuy (Jan 29, 2021)

Tortugadad said:


> Thanks I am trying to avoid repeating the common mistakes others have made so i can make new interesting and unique owns.
> 
> One of of the biggest barriers so far seems to be space so I hope someone has suggestions as to a species that would be happy in a 2 1/2 by 5 foot area.



I know you said your wife doesn't like lizards, but I have a uromastyx and he's fantastic and would fit that size availability. Uromastyx are strict herbivores and require no live insects. The minimum size enclosure for them is 4 feet long by 2 feet wide and 2 feet tall. They require extreme heat during the day (120 degrees Fahrenheit for basking) and room temperature at night.

Once you get their temperatures dialed in they are very easy to care for. They don't need a water bowl, although some offer a very shallow one. I just let some water pool in the shallow food dish I use to serve up fresh mixed greens daily. I also have three snakes, two dogs and two aquariums, and my uromastyx is by far the easiest pet to look after.

They're not as handleable as bearded dragons or leopard geckos, but I imagine that they are more handleable than a tortoise. Mine crawls into my hand to eat (he's still young and fits in my hand), allows me to lift him out of his tank and hold him in my hands (they are lightning fast when let go) and allows me to reach into his tank to pet his head and back.

If you go that route be 100% sure to get a captive bred baby because many are sold wild-caught and have parasites and may never tame down if wild-caught. They're often described as a tortoise without the shell.

Good luck either way.


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## Tortugadad (Jan 29, 2021)

I appreciate all the feed back unfortunately my son has has allergies that limit the furry pet options and my has phobias that limit the feathered and scaled pet options. I will definitely have my son be involved in feeding, soaking and cage cleaning but i am realistic enough to know my assistance will be required. I am fairly educated and I am intimidated by the thought of setting up the habitat and monitoring temperature and humidity.


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## ZenHerper (Jan 29, 2021)

Tortugadad said:


> I appreciate all the feed back unfortunately my son has has allergies that limit the furry pet options and my has phobias that limit the feathered and scaled pet options. I will definitely have my son be involved in feeding, soaking and cage cleaning but i am realistic enough to know my assistance will be required. I am fairly educated and I am intimidated by the thought of setting up the habitat and monitoring temperature and humidity.







Welcome!

So, you've listed a number of ways that a pet would have to fit in and be suitable to your family situation.

But animals that we bring home to captivity require that we 100% fit in with Their care needs. Most people quickly find out that the habitat/micro-climate was the easy part of the proposition. Reptiles are the Right pet for people who love puzzles, word problems, technical/engineering projects, meditation, outside-the-box lifestyle, attention to detail, and the like.

Dogs (and even cats) are in many ways similar to us, and their systematic breeding over thousands of years has made them really suitable companions and dependents. With tortoises: carers have to know when to be hands-on and hands-off (and it's a lot hands-off).

Reptile physiology is different from ours in a number of impactful ways. Read some random threads in the Health and Diet sub-forums to get a feel for what people go through when trying to trouble-shoot and address issues that come up very routinely with captive reptiles.






Tortoise Health


Tortoise topics relating to general health and medicine




www.tortoiseforum.org









__





Tortoise Diet and Food


Make sure your animals have a proper diet. Post places to find suitable food, or even better, how to grow it




www.tortoiseforum.org





Is your son taking an interest in caring for a _reptile_ pet? Is he doing the research? Asking for books, articles, and other resources? Is he interested in reading through the species-specific forums here on his own? What does he imagine when he thinks "Pet"? What are his expectations - what is its purpose in his life? What is his purpose in its life?





__





Mediterranean Tortoises (genus Testudo)







www.tortoiseforum.org





(BTW: People do build and maintain 2-story enclosures...these have limitations in terms of actual walk-able space, ability to maintain heat and humidity, safety concerns...surf the Enclosures sub-forum to see what works better and what works poorly.)

Well. =))

My suggestion: start with Venus Fly Trap plants. Youtube, bloggers, and sellers have packed the internet with information and care tips. If you and your son can successfully keep a VFT in an appropriate substrate, properly hydrated/humidified, under proper lighting, alive and well for a year (including winter dormancy), then graduate to fauna next spring.

That gives you plenty of time to plan, research, and stop by to ask all the questions you don't find ready answers for.


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## Box Turtle Tuesday (Jan 29, 2021)

Not a tortoise but maybe musk turtle??? 
Idk


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## Maggie3fan (Jan 29, 2021)

ZenHerper said:


> Welcome!
> 
> So, you've listed a number of ways that a pet would have to fit in and be suitable to your family situation.
> 
> ...


Wow what a great freakin reply VFT I want one


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## Sulcata96 (Jan 29, 2021)

Box Turtle Tuesday said:


> Not a tortoise but maybe musk turtle???
> Idk


Those are great. They’ll only require about a 55 gallon aquarium (minimum when fully filled, preferably a 60+ gallon) with an enclosed basking spot placed on top. They’re like tortoises, but move faster and stay smaller. They have a ton of personality and come in a tiny package. One of the best options for a beginner turtle, and far easier than a tortoise.


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## Quixx66 (Jan 29, 2021)

maggie3fan said:


> Wow what a great freakin reply VFT I want one


Me too! Looking now!


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## ZenHerper (Jan 29, 2021)

Box Turtle Tuesday said:


> Not a tortoise but maybe musk turtle???
> Idk



They eat live critters...



maggie3fan said:


> ...VFT I want one





Quixx66 said:


> Me too! Looking now!



They're cool! And very like reptiles...without the taking up lots of space and moving around.

Bit early in the U.S. season (like reptiles), but some growers have them available (bit higher shipping $ with heat packs).


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## MNGuy (Jan 29, 2021)

There’s nothing wrong with getting pet for a child when there’s a responsible adult who has accepted their role as the main caretaker, as should be the case with all pets for kids, and who is doing their research, as is the case in this situation.

Good luck.


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## Quixx66 (Jan 29, 2021)

ZenHerper said:


> They eat live critters...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks! I’ll just keep an eye out!


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## Box Turtle Tuesday (Jan 30, 2021)

Sulcata96 said:


> Those are great. They’ll only require about a 55 gallon aquarium (minimum when fully filled, preferably a 60+ gallon) with an enclosed basking spot placed on top. They’re like tortoises, but move faster and stay smaller. They have a ton of personality and come in a tiny package. One of the best options for a beginner turtle, and far easier than a tortoise.


Yea probably the only turtle I would recommend for a beginner


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## Box Turtle Tuesday (Jan 30, 2021)

ZenHerper said:


> They eat live critters...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Musk turtle do not eat critters and what the heck does that even mean


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## Fredinathetortoise941 (Feb 25, 2021)

Tortugadad said:


> Dad I want a pet.
> 
> Definitely the scariest words in the English language.
> 
> ...


I have a Russian and she's really good she's not shy, and will eat right out your hand also males only grow to about 6 inches max and are really cute ???


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## Tortugadad (Feb 26, 2021)

Thanks I have heard good things about russian tortoises it is just the space requirements that have been an issue.


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## Fredinathetortoise941 (Feb 27, 2021)

Tortugadad said:


> Thanks I have heard good things about russian tortoises it is just the space requirements that have been an issue.


Yeah I can see that as a problem but if space is an issue honestly all tortoises need a lot of space so I think if you don't have the space then maybe a turtle is better for you? 
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Russians only need abt 6 by 2 feet I am getting a bigger one for mine just because I have the room but if it really is an issue maybe a turtle if the right one for you


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## Danimal (Feb 28, 2021)

If you don't mind a steeper price tag, the Indian Star tortoise is a small breed in the range you are discussing. 

I'd add to the existing discussion that the size enclosures you are discussing are for adults. That is your endgame and it does come relative quickly but if you get a baby X tortoise (small breed) it will give you a couple of years to come up with a solution. I don't necessarily suggest that path because if it doesn't go right you'll be faced with some hard decisions. You can get creative and probably solve the indoor housing problem just be aware that without going custom the chances of finding a retail tortoise table are slim. If you can't build then maybe you have a friend that can? 

If not, go to >Animal Plastics< 
I've bought snake racks and cages from them. 


Look at their terrestrial cages. You may find one you like, they have one that 72'L X 2'W X 2'D for $525, I think. It is 1/2" expanded PVC cut on a cnc machine and shipped flat. You could also just email them with what you are looking for, like a table. These small tortoises don't need much height, we're talking inches, they just need space to roam. 

Unfortunately, once you start keeping the exotic type animals, you spend a lot of time DIY'ing and repurposing, just not enough commercially available offerings that fulfill the requirements.

Food shouldn't be a problem but beware, tortoises can be loud, they will roam their enclosure, banging the entire perimeter. Both of my Sulcatas and a female russian do it.


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## Impulse2 (Apr 2, 2021)

My 5" female margie is very shy. 
I wouldn't recommend any hibernating species.


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## jsheffield (Apr 2, 2021)

Tortugadad said:


> Dad I want a pet.
> 
> Definitely the scariest words in the English language.
> 
> ...


My vote would be for an adult Russian Tortoise.


small
hardy
can live in a table enclosure
herbivorous
readily available/affordable
Jamie


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## Maggie3fan (Apr 2, 2021)

Fredinathetortoise941 said:


> Yeah I can see that as a problem but if space is an issue honestly all tortoises need a lot of space so I think if you don't have the space then maybe a turtle is better for you?
> Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Russians only need abt 6 by 2 feet I am getting a bigger one for mine just because I have the room but if it really is an issue maybe a turtle if the right one for you


Russians require an about 8'x4' as a minimum enclosure


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## Ink (Apr 2, 2021)

I love my Western Hermanns, and I also have an Eastern Hermanns. Neither hibernate or eat live critters.


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## nootnootbu (May 17, 2021)

ZenHerper said:


> They eat live critters...


Virtually all species of aquatic turtle CAN eat live critters, but absolutely do not NEED to eat live critters. They can all be fed turtle pellets and also dried bugs, dried fish, and dried shrimp, as well as other things. You're also supposed to keep a green floating for most species. The pellets will make up the bulk of their diet, they are very convenient and affordable.


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## nootnootbu (May 17, 2021)

With your space constraints, I would recommend an aquatic turtle as you can maximize their space by filling their tank nearly full of water for swimming room and using a turtle topper or home made basking basket for their basking space. You could also get more creative later and build them a little land platform outside the top of their tank.

Another option is to get a small tortoise species and do the two level enclosure, I think a great idea for this is to do the bottom level with the second level as the 'roof' for it, and make the bottom level heated and enclosed with a thermostat to regulate temp, while doing the top level as an open air tortoise table, with a basking spot with both heat and UV. With something like a Russian, this would give it a pretty ideal climate of having an above ground area and then an underground burrow area that you could keep at a good controlled heat/humidity 

You could do this by building it with wood, making essentially a large 'box' with one side open, which you could put a clear PVC viewing side and door on, for easy access and cleaning. Then put your 'rails' on the top, and figure out a good spot to put a ramp that leads from the top floor to the bottom one. Just make sure the ramp isn't too steep or slick, and that it's got rails too so the tort cannot fall off of it.

Also make sure to leave room for substrate in your construction!


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## nootnootbu (May 17, 2021)

I would also like to stress that in the case of all tortoises and turtles, feeding live critters is a choice, not a necessity. Red Foots will eat bugs, and even mice, if you're the kind of person who likes that sort of thing, but they do absolutely fine with other protein sources for their (TINY) amount of needed protein, and they are mostly vegetarians. They do not need to hunt to eat. 

Turtles are the same, they grow up eating the floaty things you feed them, they do not need to hunt to be happy or healthy, they no more need to eat live animals than a dog does. They are not like a snake, and do not require motion from their 'prey' to be stimulated to eat it. They are largely scavengers and will happily eat a dead fish they find floating about just as easily as a live one, even in the wild.


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