# Humid Hatchling Chamber



## Tom (May 18, 2011)

This will be this years big experiment. I'm taking a page from the redfoot keepers and this enclosure and idea was largely inspired by Tyler and KBaker. Part of the reason of why I think last years EOP babies did not turn out "perfect" (by MY standards) is because of the desiccating effect of the over head heat lamps. They seem to be a necessary evil, but this is an attempt to get around them. I tried lower temps under the bulbs, but then the tortoises just sat directly under them all day, since they could not get warm enough, and this only dried them out even more. At 100-110, they bask a while and then move around the enclosure going about their business. At 90-95, they just parked under the light ALL day, only briefly moving to eat.

I still feel like they need an area that gives them the option of warming up a bit, so I decided to try the Kane Heat Mat. It has a thermostat built in to the pad and a dial to set it at whatever temp you desire. It is very accurate and so far has shown no "hot spots". I'm going to start with 92 and see how it goes. If they just constantly sit on the mat, I will keep gradually warming it up until they start moving on and off of it as they should. The mat is 18x18" and the enclosure is 3x5'. The rest of the enclosure stays 79-84. I've put the mat on a 12 hour timer, so at night the whole enclosure drops down to room temp of 79-80. For light, I'm just using a regular household CFL. It passes through the translucent plastic, and its about 22" away from them, so I'm not too worried about it damaging their eyes like one of those coil type UV bulbs. The light is directly over the heat mat and is on the same timer as the heat mat. They will still get daily soaks and shell spraying several times a day. They will also get an hour or two of sun in the hot dry air here almost every day. I feel this last bit is critical to mention since I don't know how well this would all work in more humid parts of the country. Anyone wanna try it in FL or Louisiana? Some have speculated that this daily "drying out" is a factor in my success with all the moisture. I don't have that answer as I've never done this anywhere else.

Humidity is staying at around 70% when I put the probe anywhere on the mat and 98% everywhere else in the enclosure. I've got three of Deloris' brand new hatchlings in there and I've already seen them periodically sitting on the mat.

Enough talk. Here we go!

I made this frame from 2x4s. I attached the plastic sheeting to the underside with staples. This will form the top of the enclosure.






Here is the inside of the enclosure with the top removed.





One side.





Then the other.





The inhabitants.





Here it is as it normally sits with the top on. Its the top shelf in my tortoise rack and you can see the leopards underneath them. Daisy inhabits the bottom shelf.


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## Fernando (May 18, 2011)

Very Interesting, I remember you telling us about this. 

How does air circulation work? Do they need any?


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## Tom (May 18, 2011)

FernandoM said:


> Very Interesting, I remember you telling us about this.
> 
> How does air circulation work? Do they need any?



I just open the top every day to get them out for sun and soaking. Air circulation just dries everything out. I'm trying to PREVENT air circulation. If it becomes a problem, I can always prop the top open as needed.


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## OllieInAZ (May 18, 2011)

Another interesting experiment. 

I'm curious, have you ever tried coating a hatchling in mud? Everyone always says the wild torts are smooth and wild torts I would imagine often look like this.


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## Kristina (May 18, 2011)

Very similar to my set up Tom. I am using an aquarium though, with plexiglass covers.


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## Fernando (May 18, 2011)

OllieInAZ said:


> Another interesting experiment.
> 
> I'm curious, have you ever tried coating a hatchling in mud? Everyone always says the wild torts are smooth and wild torts I would imagine often look like this.



Interesting thought. I would like to expirement with that idea sometime. 



Tom said:


> FernandoM said:
> 
> 
> > Very Interesting, I remember you telling us about this.
> ...



ah I see. 

And during winter times when they can't go outside for those two hours or so you would then just switch to a UVB to simulate the same amount of exposure?


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## dmarcus (May 18, 2011)

Very interesting, we have Tejas in a similar tub and we have been trying to figure a way to stop it from drying out so fast...


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## Tom (May 18, 2011)

Fernando, I don't worry too much about UV. In the past, I any many others used to keep everything indoors most of the time and we really didn't have any problems. I would literally hold my iguanas outside for 20-30 minutes a couple of times a week and I never had a single one get MBD. And this was years before we had MVBs or florescent UV bulbs that actually worked. I don't worry if my reptiles go a couple of weeks in the winter with no sunshine, AS LONG AS they are getting plenty of it the rest of the year. In my experience 20 -30 minutes twice a week is all they really NEED to stay healthy. I think more is better, and the exercise from being outside in a large pen is good for them too, but in my opinion hours of UV exposure every single day is not necessary for good health. For people who live in areas where their torts won't see the sun for months at a time, this is a different story, but MY torts see the sun all year long.

Of course this is a very debatable topic, and many people have very strong feelings about it one way or the other. If anyone wants to "go there", lets start a new thread in the debatable section.


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## Fernando (May 18, 2011)

*Oh no you didn't just go there!!! haha*

Understandable...I'm not on the debate team here on the forum yet and don't have enough experience, so, you know me, I'll just take it in and learn as I go. I just had to ask.


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## Kristina (May 18, 2011)

I'm on the same boat as Tom as far as UV. I have several hatchlings right now that were raised indoors all winter with no UV bulb and are hard as rocks. As long as the diet and hydration are in place, and calcium is supplemented, they grow up just great. My torts are outside in the warm months, and do just fine during the winter.


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## ALDABRAMAN (May 18, 2011)

Interesting.


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## Fernando (May 18, 2011)

Kristina said:


> I'm on the same boat as Tom as far as UV. I have several hatchlings right now that were raised indoors all winter with no UV bulb and are hard as rocks. As long as the diet and hydration are in place, and calcium is supplemented, they grow up just great. My torts are outside in the warm months, and do just fine during the winter.




When you say calcium, do you mean given through a food source? 

The reason I ask is that the calcium supplement would need to have UVB in order to be activated, if it was something like repto-cal or similar right? 

This is interesting and opens up some more doors for me in tortoise keeping


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## kbaker (May 18, 2011)

Tom-
My first thought was no air flow. Low to no air movement around the heat is good, but becareful of mildew/molding if everything stays wet on the cooler side.
Second thing - With that lid, what the heck do you need those two hide boxes taking up so much room for?? Isn't that lid doing the same thing as a covered humid hide?

Looks like a nice cosy home for your new babies. Keep up the good work!

Kevin

P.S. On the next experiment, try flipping the leopard set up...confine the heat lamp in an enclosed area and leave the cooler side open.


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## Tortuga_terrestre (May 18, 2011)

I remember you mentioning heat cables? So that the whole enclosure would be the same temp...or maybe im mistaken. cant wait to see the results.


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## Tom (May 18, 2011)

kbaker said:


> Tom-
> My first thought was no air flow. Low to no air movement around the heat is good, but becareful of mildew/molding if everything stays wet on the cooler side.
> Second thing - With that lid, what the heck do you need those two hide boxes taking up so much room for?? Isn't that lid doing the same thing as a covered humid hide?
> 
> ...



Excellent points Kevin. I've been mulling this over for nearly a year and those are two of the major things I considered. I thought about leaving some air gaps on one or both ends, but finally decided to try it this way. Some of my enclosures are 80-90% covered and I still only get humidity in the 60's or 70's away from the lights. If things start molding, it will be easy to peel back the plastic for a little air movement.

On the hide boxes my thought was that babies hide a lot out in the wild. No one really knows exactly what they do, but I do know that nobody ever sees them, so they are hiding somewhere. I just wanted to give them some dark places to hide. The humidity is the same inside them as outside, so you are right it doesn't really matter, but it just "felt" like the thing to do to leave them in there.

Your P.S. suggestion has just given me yet another idea. A heated, humid chamber like this one, but with a small door way to a small open dry area. Kind of like a reverse of a "normal" enclosure. The humid hide would be the "enclosure" with a small dry chamber attached...

Thanks for the input.


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## Jacob (May 19, 2011)

Love To See How This Turns Out, Tom


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## Tom (May 26, 2011)

So here's what I frequently see when I peek in. They definitely know its a warm spot and they sprawl out in that comfortable superman pose that we all know. Other times its a ghost town and they are all in the hides. I'm seeing a great balance of "basking" time, hide time, and exploring time. They are using the heat mat a little less than their counterparts are using their basking light. The ones in my regular set ups seem to find a comfy spot near the hot spot of their lamps and camp out there for long periods of time. These guys get on the mat and get warm, and then move off of it, in a much shorter time period than the ones under the lamps. One other thing that I am really loving is that when I spray them, their shells stay wet for a long time. If they are not on the mat, the carapace will stay wet for an hour or more. My other guys are dry again within minutes.

Another thing I'm noticing is that during the daily sunning sessions these guys seem a bit more active. They are less inclined to try to hide and spend more time in the sun versus the other, conventionally housed ones, who spend more time in the shade or hiding.

So far, I'm really liking the results from this unconventional style. If it produces good growth and smooth shells, I may switch to this style entirely entirely. We'll get a pretty good idea within 3-4 months.


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## Tom (Jun 13, 2011)

Its been about three weeks on these guys. All are doing well. Weights are 42, 46 and 51. Shells are looking superb so far. They also get about an hour or two of sun five days a week, followed by a warm soak.


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## Jacob (Jun 13, 2011)

They Looks Great!


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## Fernando (Jun 13, 2011)

They look Ridiculously good, Tom. What was initial reaction when they first hit the sun for the very first time? Did they run like crazy and explore? Or were they sort of surprised for a while and basked?


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## Tom (Jun 14, 2011)

FernandoM said:


> They look Ridiculously good, Tom. What was initial reaction when they first hit the sun for the very first time? Did they run like crazy and explore? Or were they sort of surprised for a while and basked?



They just acted like every other baby that I put out. Active and exploring, but not frantic or looking for anywhere to hide. They all went over and ate too. I always leave a little plate of food in the outside pens since the sun seems to always stoke their appetite and I don't want them to be tempted to eat the substrate.


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## dmarcus (Jun 14, 2011)

The all look fantastic..


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## DeanS (Jun 14, 2011)

Tom said:


> Fernando, I don't worry too much about UV. In the past, I any many others used to keep everything indoors most of the time and we really didn't have any problems. I would literally hold my iguanas outside for 20-30 minutes a couple of times a week and I never had a single one get MBD. And this was years before we had MVBs or florescent UV bulbs that actually worked. I don't worry if my reptiles go a couple of weeks in the winter with no sunshine, AS LONG AS they are getting plenty of it the rest of the year. In my experience 20 -30 minutes twice a week is all they really NEED to stay healthy. I think more is better, and the exercise from being outside in a large pen is good for them too, but in my opinion hours of UV exposure every single day is not necessary for good health. For people who live in areas where their torts won't see the sun for months at a time, this is a different story, but MY torts see the sun all year long.
> 
> Of course this is a very debatable topic, and many people have very strong feelings about it one way or the other. If anyone wants to "go there", lets start a new thread in the debatable section.



So! You're saying the 8 hours I leave the yearlings outside is excessive?!?! BTW...what experimentation are the ivories being subjected to?


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## Tom (Jun 24, 2011)

Everything is going very well. Weights are now 56, 56, 64. They are perfectly smooth so far.


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## SnakeyeZ (Jun 24, 2011)

Great looking tortoises.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jun 24, 2011)

Tom, what do their plastrons look like? I am glad that they are thermo-regulating but what happens when one goes to a sound sleep and doesn't get off and gets burned?
This goes against everything I was taught about raising babies, I would never use heat under. It should always come from above. How much exercising are they getting in that tub? Do you take them out daily and give them lots of exercise in the sun? You know my 4 things to prevent pyramiding...

I think they need small hides to make them feel secure and safe when they sleep at night. I think you should leave those hides in there...


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## dmmj (Jun 24, 2011)

I am a little confused is this different than your other experiments?


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## Tom (Jun 24, 2011)

maggie3fan said:


> Tom, what do their plastrons look like? I am glad that they are thermo-regulating but what happens when one goes to a sound sleep and doesn't get off and gets burned?
> This goes against everything I was taught about raising babies, I would never use heat under. It should always come from above. How much exercising are they getting in that tub? Do you take them out daily and give them lots of exercise in the sun? You know my 4 things to prevent pyramiding...
> 
> I think they need small hides to make them feel secure and safe when they sleep at night. I think you should leave those hides in there...



The mats have an embedded thermostat built in, and no matter how I set it, it cuts off at 104. As it sits, I have it set at 92 and it stays right at 92 all the time. I have a remote probe that I move around the mat periodically to check for any "hot" spots. I have not found any. I also use my temp gun to double check it. It also reads 92 when the mat is on. Their plastrons look perfect. Just like all my other hatchlings.

They get about an hour or two of sun 5 or 6 days a week in large outdoor pens.

A friend of a friend raises some really smooth leopards using something kind of like this, so I already knew it would not be harmful. What I really want to see is just HOW beneficial it may or may not be to proper carapace development.


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## Tom (Aug 16, 2011)

Long overdue update:

They are doing very well. Their growth is VERY smooth so far. Better than last years EOP torts, and better than this years Vitashell torts. Their weights are 75, 78 and 85 grams. Their appetite is good and they still thermoregulate by moving on or off the mat. I would say that they are on their mat a little more than the others are under their basking lights.

One thing has happened that changed the parameters of the experiment a little. My remote probe that sat on the mat kept reading 86-88. I was striving for 92, so I kept bumping the mat temp up at the thermostat. Well it kept reading 88-89, even as I kept turning it up. Finally I broke out the temp gun and the mat has been at 96-98 for a while. My darn remote probe was malfunctioning! They still use the mat about the same amount, so I decided to just go ahead and leave it set at the higher setting.

On to the pics:


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## l0velesly (Aug 17, 2011)

Super smooth!


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## Stephanie (Aug 17, 2011)

Wow! Another successful experiment so far! They look beautiful!


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## Balboa (Aug 17, 2011)

They really are looking great Tom,

I'm watching!


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## Tom (Aug 25, 2011)

This experiment is done. The babies grew perfectly smooth, and I do mean perfect, but they also are growing a little slower than my norm. Not terrible or anything, just a little slower. They are healthy, active, and have great appetite. They sit on their heat mat about the same amount of time that the others bask under their lamps. I don't know why they would grow slower, given that their temps are the same as the other torts. Its just heat from below, instead of heat from above. It does seem that very high humidity does play a role in keeping them smoother. My next experiment will be to raise some in this same humid chamber, but with a heat lamp instead of a heat mat and see if that makes a difference in smoothness or growth rate. More babies on the way...


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## Maggie Cummings (Aug 25, 2011)

They are beautiful and look very smooth. Good job Tom


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