# No substrate incubation



## Kapidolo Farms (Nov 19, 2014)

http://www.yourgeckoguy.com/?t=Homepage&p=48146642852278b130183e

I've not used these exact products, but have made my own for some of the pancake eggs I have incubated. I like to concept a great deal. @Tom and I discussed this some, but my own experince is limited and I already don't recall what Tom said he did do, just that he heard that some neonates will eat incubation media.

Any one got something to share on this idea?


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## Yvonne G (Nov 19, 2014)

I wonder how deep those trays are. They probably wouldn't fit in the incubator.

Next time I get eggs I was going to try piling them up in a hole and covering them with substrate then put them in the incubator. I thought being covered would deter the darned gnats that always attack my Manouria eggs.


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## Tom (Nov 19, 2014)

Will, Have you read this gecko guys explanation page about his trays and the biological processes taking place? You might not be amused at some of it...

What I related was that all of my sulcatas would eat incubation media upon hatching, even when they still had a sizable yolk sac. My practice has always been to remove the hatchling from the incubator and put it into a brooder box the moment it leaves its egg on its own power. Even with this practice I was still seeing bits of vermiculite in their first bowel movements which would come two or three weeks after hatching and beginning to eat daily.This means that they were eating tidbits of vermiculite even when they were still in the egg, with just their head hanging out. My hatchlings would also readily eat any greens, weeds, leaves or flowers left in their brooder boxes while they were still absorbing their yolk sacs.

This phenomenon is noteworthy because many breeders and experts claim that they will not eat while they still have a yolk sac. I think this may be true for some reptiles, but not tortoises. At least not some species of tortoise. This became especially noteworthy when I bought 20 sulcata babies from a breeder who leaves his babies in the incubator, on their media, while they absorb their yolk sacs. This is a process that can take 7-10 days. About a third of the babies were not doing well several weeks into their tenure with me. Necropsy revealed that their intestinal tracts were lined with a "thick gray sandy sludge", as if they had ingested sand or something sandy, according to my vet. I incorrectly assumed that this was broken down vermiculite, since these tortoises had never been on sand or dirt of any kind in their young lives. The breeder pointed out that I was wrong. It could not be vermiculite since he only used perlite for incubation. Ever crushed up perlite between your thumb and fingers? Pretty much resembles sand...

I would love to see pics of the "cups" that you are successfully using. This is a technique that I intend to explore and I'll be incubating some eggs in spring.


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## J.P. (Nov 19, 2014)

i can't access the site at this moment, but if the no substrate method is squamata incubation concept, then i know something about it.

i've bred other reptiles, but never chelonians. this method worked great for my snakes and lizards. perfect humidity all the time minus the contamination of substrates. the only risk is when moving the egg boxes for candling, or whaterver purpose, water sloshes around it can wet the eggs. so i modified this method by still using media to "hold" the water, and still use platic grates to suspend the eggs over the wet media. i can use a lot more water since the eggs are suspended.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Nov 20, 2014)

Tom said:


> Will, Have you read this gecko guys explanation page about his trays and the biological processes taking place? You might not be amused at some of it...
> 
> What I related was that all of my sulcatas would eat incubation media upon hatching, even when they still had a sizable yolk sac. My practice has always been to remove the hatchling from the incubator and put it into a brooder box the moment it leaves its egg on its own power. Even with this practice I was still seeing bits of vermiculite in their first bowel movements which would come two or three weeks after hatching and beginning to eat daily.This means that they were eating tidbits of vermiculite even when they were still in the egg, with just their head hanging out. My hatchlings would also readily eat any greens, weeds, leaves or flowers left in their brooder boxes while they were still absorbing their yolk sacs.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the extended narrative, I knew I didn't recall it well, probably the excitment of seeing thousands of sulcatas at one place. I'll get an image of the modified yogurt cups on here later today. I think a sweater box with needlepoint plastic mess over wetted perlite would be a good approximation of what is sold on that website. And Tom, you are correct I did not read all the stuff there, just wanted to provoke a conversation, I'll read it.

I would worry that one hatchling might run amock in the incubator rolling unhatched eggs around, so individual compartments would be a good organization to consider, maybe like an icecube tray seperator on the needlepoint plastic mesh, or just buy the already made thing like on that web site. Pancake eggs are easy to deal with as they are one at a time, not the same consideration as 20 eggs +/- in one clutch.


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## Tom (Nov 20, 2014)

J.P. said:


> i can't access the site at this moment, but if the no substrate method is squamata incubation concept, then i know something about it.
> 
> i've bred other reptiles, but never chelonians. this method worked great for my snakes and lizards. perfect humidity all the time minus the contamination of substrates. the only risk is when moving the egg boxes for candling, or whaterver purpose, water sloshes around it can wet the eggs. so i modified this method by still using media to "hold" the water, and still use platic grates to suspend the eggs over the wet media. i can use a lot more water since the eggs are suspended.



J.P. What media are you using? I still have some of those "water Crystals" for roaches and crickets. Wonder if that would work?


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## Tom (Nov 20, 2014)

Will said:


> I would worry that one hatchling might run amock in the incubator rolling unhatched eggs around, so individual compartments would be a good organization to consider, maybe like an icecube tray seperator on the needlepoint plastic mesh, or just buy the already made thing like on that web site.



I considered that too. I was more considering how to keep the eggs from rolling around in general. I was also wondering about how much of the egg surface is being touched by the plastic grate and if that could be a stress point and cause a crack farther along in incubation as the shell starts to degrade. Maybe the shells won't degrade if not subjected to the biological activity of substrate? Hmmm....


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## Kapidolo Farms (Nov 20, 2014)

This is what I've used for the pancake eggs. It's a cafe style yogurt cup with a 'loft' for granola and a standard beverage container lid. In this image is a hatched egg and no water. I fill the water up to about a 1/4 inch below the loft, and use a poker to make many holes in the bottom of the loft to that the humidity from the water can get to the top of the loft where the egg sits. It makes it very easy to candle the egg in place and see what can be seen. When the tortoise hatches it just stays there as the beverage container style lid snaps into place.
.


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## Tom (Nov 20, 2014)

I like it. What do you do to keep the egg from rolling?


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## Kapidolo Farms (Nov 20, 2014)

Two toothpicks, or a rubber band.


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## J.P. (Nov 21, 2014)

@Tom ,
I used perlite.
I have a hunch that the water absorbing crystals may hold water too well, as even if left in an open dish, hardly any water evaporates from it. As a simple test, leave some in a sealed box and measure humidity.


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