# My tortoise is not a turtle debate.



## BuffsTorts (Jul 18, 2010)

Moved and continued from:
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-16840-page-2.html



RichardS said:


> This is actually a great attitude for science. But the burden of evidence is now on you. Since conventional nomenclature tells us that the family Testudinidae (tortoises) is part of the order Testudines (turtles).



I will play in part.
Just wiki, simple to prove, Humans are monkeys, as tortoises are turtles.

RUSSIAN TORTOISE
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Reptilia
Order: Testudines
Suborder: Cryptodira - Turtle ancestor
Family: Testudinidae
Genus: Testudo (disputed)	
Species: T. horsfieldii

+3 stages of classification between species Turt - Tort

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Subphylum: Vertebrata
Class: Reptilia
Order: Testudines - Turtle


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Tortoise

HUMAN
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates - Monkey Ancestor
Family: Hominidae
Subfamily: Homininae
Tribe: Hominini 
Genus: Homo
Species: H. sapiens

+5 stages of classification between species Monk - Hum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates - Monkey Ancestor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey 

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/145038/Cryptodira

Once a new classification or sub category is established, it becomes a new species, described by a different name, if you investigate the divisions in the scientific classification, you clearly see, both humans and tortoises, share a common ancestor(with monkey and turtle) yet can still be called by such archaic names. However it describes nothing of the animal in question. The new species is so far removed from the old, it is an entirely new family of animal. A tortoise can no longer ever become a 'new world' turtle species again, because it will still carry the Testudinidae DNA. The Testudinidae is a type of tortoise, in the order Testudines. Humans are a type of homo sapiens, in the order Primate.

Describe how that is different.
Please excuse wiki use, I was not up for a credible search, but I picked information I believe to be correct.

Cheers


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## RichardS (Jul 19, 2010)

BuffsTorts said:


> I will play in part.
> Just wiki, simple to prove, Humans are monkeys, as tortoises are turtles.



Wrong. Here's a little law school logic for you. All humans are primates. All monkeys are primates. Not all primates are human. Not all primates are monkeys. 

All tortoises are turtles. Not all turtles are tortoises. 



BuffsTorts said:


> Once a new classification or sub category is established, it becomes a new species, described by a different name, if you investigate the divisions in the scientific classification, you clearly see, both humans and tortoises, share a common ancestor(with monkey and turtle) yet can still be called by such archaic names. However it describes nothing of the animal in question. The new species is so far removed from the old, it is an entirely new family of animal. A tortoise can no longer ever become a 'new world' turtle species again, because it will still carry the Testudinidae DNA. The Testudinidae is a type of tortoise, in the order Testudines. Humans are a type of homo sapiens, in the order Primate.



With all due respect, this is not debatable. 

Just as I am not qualified to attempt to explain the inner workings of the modern combustion engine, I think you are attempting to explain something that you have no real understanding of. Its not a dig in anyway, but you're way out of your element. 

Species are often described before the family and order. Scientists backed into taxonomy because they science was naming organisms way before Darwin suggested evolution, and obviously way before DNA was discovered. We do a lot of modern reclassifying of genus (Geochelone) because DNA allows us to dig a little deeper, but most of what we have today came before DNA. Scientists had to objectively describe each species and form the making so of taxonomy just based on their observations.


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## Livingstone (Jul 19, 2010)

This arguement is fruitless, if all tortoises are turtles, why does my sulcata sink in water?


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## BuffsTorts (Jul 19, 2010)

"All tortoises are turtles. Not all turtles are tortoises. "

Thats just fine I never disputed that, but to call a tortoise a turtle, does not to describe the actual animal you are attempting to describe.
It is describing the family of animal.
To look at a picture of a human and say that is a primate(monkey share this class), is the same as looking at a picture of a tortoise and saying that is a testudines(turtles share this class). It achieves very little in the description of the animal. Why not say, hey there's a hominid, or there's a testinidae, perhaps a clearer description of the animal in the photo?

A picture of a tortoise is a picture of a tortoise, a type of turtle, still a tortoise.




Livingstone said:


> This arguement is fruitless, if all tortoises are turtles, why does my sulcata sink in water?



LOL fruitless only if you do not learn anything.


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## Madkins007 (Jul 19, 2010)

Livingstone said:


> This arguement is fruitless, if all tortoises are turtles, why does my sulcata sink in water?



Because of the ratio of body mass to density. My Red-foot can swim- does that mean he is not a tortoise?


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## dannomite (Jul 19, 2010)

Maybe it just depends on where you are from...I mean there is variations to language and how some people define things. I found the descriptions interesting on the San Diego Zoo site. There they distinguish Torts and Turtles as 2 separate things but they explain that in Australia people generally call everything Tortoises except Sea Turtles. Perhaps the names are just interpreted differently around the world and is subject to opinion? Is there even a right and wrong here? Torts are Chelonian, Turtles are Chelonian...instead of Generalizing all our shelled friends as "turtles" I would generalize as "chelonians"

http://www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-turtle.html


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## Madkins007 (Jul 19, 2010)

Part of the problem is that the same term is used for the larger category, and for a group within the category. "Turtle" describes ALL shelled reptiles, AND shelled reptiles that live partially or completely in water (and Box Turtles).

Many of us here want to use 'tortoise' to differentiate land from water turtles, and that is fine as far as it goes. My goal is just to help people understand that there is a correct, proper, scientific, and right way ("tortoises are turtles, but not all turtles are tortoises"), and a way that does not really make a lot of sense ("tortoises are not turtles"). 

If we changed the game to a different category of thing, where the same name is used for the big group and a smaller internal group, it might make more sense.

All cats are felines, but no one really uses the term felines (just like no one uses the term 'chelonians'), they just call them the cat family- which includes pumas, servals, jaguars, bobcats, domestic cats, and cheetahs among others. The term 'cat' is also used to describe the smaller members of the family, especially the domestic ones.

The cheetah is an interesting felid- it does not fully retract its claws and it has some other very non-cat-like characteristics, and it has been kept as a pet for centuries even though it is considered one of the 'big cats'. But- it IS a member of the family Felidae, the 'cat family'. It purrs, it has the cat skull and facial structure, its evolutionary relatives were members of the cat family, and almost any layperson looking at it would call it a 'cat'.

So, if I had a pet cheetah, and you said 'What a pretty cat', and I said 'it is not a cat, it is a cheetah'- am I right or wrong?

Answer: I would be making an incorrect statement. In both the cat and turtle versions of this statement, I would be correct if I modified the generic word (cat or turtle) to show what I mean, like this:
- "It is not a _water _turtle, it is a tortoise."
- "It is not a _domestic _cat, it is a cheetah."

This opens the way for more discussion, is accurate and correct, and ends this whole debate.

Of course, we could also end the debate if we could convince people to use the word 'chelonian' when they mean 'turtle in the generic sense', but that ain't gonna happen anytime soon.


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## BuffsTorts (Jul 19, 2010)

Interesting analogy with cats Madkins.
I suppose I am calling or considering all turtles 'aquatic turtles'.
As most would consider cats 'domestic cats'.


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## RichardS (Jul 19, 2010)

I'm actually surprised no one has brought up a toad vs. frog example.


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## hali (Jul 19, 2010)

i always thought tortoises lived out of water and turtles lived in water!!!!!


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## dmmj (Jul 19, 2010)

hali said:


> i always thought tortoises lived out of water and turtles lived in water!!!!!


That is how I usually use to describe them, I know thre are exceptions to every ruke, I don't really care either way myself, I do try to correct people myself, and nicely i might add, but I can't tell you how many times I call my CDT or my russians, turtles. Granted it is a slip of the tongue but like I said it does not really bother me.

See no prepositions, I think.


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## Madkins007 (Jul 19, 2010)

RichardS said:


> I'm actually surprised no one has brought up a toad vs. frog example.



Oh, god- talk about a can of worms. I'm kinda glad it never came up!



hali said:


> i always thought tortoises lived out of water and turtles lived in water!!!!!



In Europe, that is how the term is used. They call land turtles 'tortoises', even the American Box Turtles. They call the pond or basking turtles 'terrapins' and use the word 'turtle' for all aquatic turtles.

Technically, a tortoise is any turtle in the family Testudinidea, the 'true tortoises'. They are identified as eating, hunting, hiding, sleeping, and mating on land; as having club-like or elephant-like legs with no visible toes, and having heavy domed shells (except for the Pancake Tortoise)


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## DeanS (Jul 20, 2010)

Livingstone said:


> This arguement is fruitless, if all tortoises are turtles, why does my sulcata sink in water?



Yeah! But my (almost) yearling sulcatas SWIM in the wading pool...literally all four legs kicking and NO contact with the pool floor.



BuffsTorts said:


> Just wiki, simple to prove, Humans are monkeys, as tortoises are turtles.



Well...my two youngest are constantly referred to as monkeys...usually by me.


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jul 20, 2010)

DeanS said:


> Well...my two youngest are constantly referred to as monkeys...usually by me.



We prefer the more Politically Correct "_*Domestic Pygmies*"_ or "_*House Apes*_", thank you very much! 

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## Stephanie Logan (Jul 21, 2010)

Hahahaha!

It's all semantics.


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