# Band-Aid Theory



## Tom (Jan 12, 2011)

Lately is has been suggested that high humidity, moisture and hydration is a "band-aid" for some other husbandry problem. Similarly, it has been suggested the very high moisture levels are "balancing" out some other husbandry deficiency. I strongly disagree, based on decades of personal observation with several species, conversations with top pros, and the experiences of many people right here on the forum. I would like the proponents of these theories to tell me where and what the deficiency is in my husbandry.

The following describes my general husbandry practices for the last two decades. Please let me know where improvement is needed. Since the 80's I've been keeping Ctenosaurs, Cyclura, Green Iguanas and of course tortoises, so I've been a student of herbivorous diets for a long time. My torts have always had a varied diet based on a variety leafy greens from the grocery store, weeds, grass and home grown foods like cactus, hibiscus, mulberry and roses. Most of them were fed "a big pile daily" with the exception of my current adult sulcatas who were fed lightly and had many days skipped. They are now 43 and 48 pounds for my 12 year old males and 33 pounds for my 10 year old female. All my other torts were a more "normal" size for their age. They've all always had large outdoor pens for sunshine, exercise and natural grazing here in the CA sunshine and they are in their outdoor pens almost daily year round. I sometimes have to skip a week or two in the winter due to cold weather and rain. They've all had large indoor enclosures with UV lighting. I used to use the "reptile" tubes, but switched to MVBs when they hit the scene, 10 years ago. I've always used Rep-cal around twice a week and periodically offered cuttle bones, even though they are mostly ignored by my torts. Some had water bowls, some didn't. I usually soaked two or three times a week. More for babies, less for juvies and adults. For all of that time I used either some sort of dry pellet or sani-chips as a substrate. The tops of the enclosures were alway left open and the hides were dry.

All of my torts pyramided. ALL of them. 100%. Since implementing the "wet" routine (damp substrate, high humidity, shell spraying several times daily, daily soaks and water sprayed on the food) Not ONE single tort out of 42 has shown any signs of pyramiding.

My view is this: The "wet" routine is not a band aid. It is not a way to "balance" something else out. It is an important element of baby tortoise husbandry that was completely missing from my repertoire for most of my tortoise keeping life. Lately, it has also been proposed that there MIGHT be some unknown side effect from hydrating our tortoise babies and using humidity to keep them from drying out and chronically dehydrating. Anyone care to explain what possible mystery side effects could be there? As a student of biology, I studied kidney and liver anatomy and physiology extensively (even got A's on the tests) and I can't ever remember hearing or reading that lots of hydration was a bad thing, or that dehydration is somehow a good thing. Here's the thing: I soak them every day, but that doesn't mean they are drinking. They just have the opportunity to drink whether they want it or not. All the humidity (which despite my best efforts is only around 50% in the room and 70-80% in the covered tort enclosures) just keeps them from dehydrating in between drinks as rapidly. I'm not forcing them to drink or tubing it down to their stomachs. I'm just giving them every opportunity to get, and stay, as hydrated as they want.

Looking forward to learning something new here.


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## dmmj (Jan 12, 2011)

The only ting I could suggest you change is probably stop using band aids.


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## Tom (Jan 12, 2011)

dmmj said:


> The only ting I could suggest you change is probably stop using band aids.



What if they don't overlap the scute margins?


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 13, 2011)

Tom as we have discussed multiple times.. and I have been in the past and still am in this presence, totally amazed with those that even still insist that keeping, maintaining, breeding, incubating, hatching and raising up those hatchlings [ with endless data ].. in other words observing and recording how they react and respond to the seasons, etc. - still persist with the attitude that all of this is a SCIENCE??? Yeah.... then we have to define SCIENCE!

You are simply doing what a small number ( of us ) are doing.. and have been doing ( for decades ) with the same results - but have made public just recently. Maybe we should define SCIENCE as a process to prove that something simple and obvious just can't possibly be true so it must be proven false(?).. as far as keeping, etc. tortoises anyway.

Here we go........................................

TEK 

btw..... none of "their" replies will hold water ---- sorry 'bout that!


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## bettinge (Jan 13, 2011)

For what its worth Tom, I'm behind the high humidity, moisture and hydration concept 100%. I am raising several Western Hermanns this way. They are 3-5 times their hatch weight and perfectly smooth. They are on 3-5 inches of damp Cypress, dry on top, and wet on the bottom. Since they are hatchlings, they are not in a large enclosure (4.5 sq/ft), so I assume they are getting less exercise than in nature, since they don't walk far for food. It is also worth noting, the winter night room temperature is 62-64 degrees, probably cooler than some think a tortoise should be damp in! I soak once a week. I feed daily.


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## Tom (Jan 13, 2011)

Thanks Scott. Its nice to hear from a Testudo keeper since they really are so different than our Africans and South Americans. I suspected it would work them same with them, but I have never done it myself.


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## Candy (Jan 13, 2011)

Redfoot NERD said:


> Tom as we have discussed multiple times.. and I have been in the past and still am in this presence, totally amazed with those that even still insist that keeping, maintaining, breeding, incubating, hatching and raising up those hatchlings [ with endless data ].. in other words observing and recording how they react and respond to the seasons, etc. - still persist with the attitude that all of this is a SCIENCE??? Yeah.... then we have to define SCIENCE!
> 
> You are simply doing what a small number ( of us ) are doing.. and have been doing ( for decades ) with the same results - but have made public just recently. Maybe we should define SCIENCE as a process to prove that something simple and obvious just can't possibly be true so it must be proven false(?).. as far as keeping, etc. tortoises anyway.
> 
> ...



Definition of Science:

1.
1. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
2. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
3. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
2. Methodological activity, discipline, or study: I've got packing a suitcase down to a science.
3. An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing.
4. Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.
5. Science Christian Science.


I don't think there's any of us here confused by the definition of science Terry, but just in case you are here it is for you to read.


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## matt41gb (Jan 13, 2011)

Why not research the tortoises natural habitat and keep accordingly? What's so hard about that? 

-Matt


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 13, 2011)

matt41gb said:


> Why not research the tortoises natural habitat and keep accordingly? What's so hard about that?
> 
> -Matt



From what I understand the difficulty comes from the fact that nobody has done this sufficiently. Tortoises aren't a big money-making research opportunity, so they don't get studied often. Even when they do get studied it's primarily the behavior of adults that get studied, not that of hatchlings which is what would be more telling as far as pyramiding prevention is concerned. What's more the studies seem to be interested in only 1 locale of tortoises at a time which makes it even harder to project the results onto all of the species.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 13, 2011)

matt41gb said:


> Why not research the tortoises natural habitat and keep accordingly? What's so hard about that?
> 
> -Matt



Matt that's too simple. Those in my peer group have been practicing what Tom is demonstrating for [ once again ] decades! "Keep them like they live".. in the wild. I knew they - those science heads - would continue on...

TEK


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## Kristina (Jan 13, 2011)

I don't look at humidity as the band aid. Rather, it is the glue that holds the puzzle together.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 13, 2011)

PeanutbuttER said:


> matt41gb said:
> 
> 
> > Why not research the tortoises natural habitat and keep accordingly? What's so hard about that?
> ...



"SUFFICIENTLY"????? This happens to be one of the few "common-denominators" among virtually all of the commonly kept tortoises today. ALL tortoises seek a hide to sleep in that is more humid than their surroundings. Ask anyone who has ever dug one out of their hide.

Of course there are always those that claim they have kept theirs the same way Tom did for the first 20 years of his tortoise keeping life..... and theirs are perfectly smooth.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 13, 2011)

Redfoot NERD said:


> PeanutbuttER said:
> 
> 
> > matt41gb said:
> ...



You misunderstood because my sentence was kinda ambiguous. I meant to say that the research hasn't been sufficient on wild populations, not that people haven't sufficiently tried their best to emulate their understanding of wild parameters.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 13, 2011)

Candy said:


> Redfoot NERD said:
> 
> 
> > Tom as we have discussed multiple times.. and I have been in the past and still am in this presence, totally amazed with those that even still insist that keeping, maintaining, breeding, incubating, hatching and raising up those hatchlings [ with endless data ].. in other words observing and recording how they react and respond to the seasons, etc. - still persist with the attitude that all of this is a SCIENCE??? Yeah.... then we have to define SCIENCE!
> ...



Candy there is in this topic. I said the SCIENCE of 'keeping,etc.'.. and why they do what they do.! The "scoffers" here that cry "there's no scientific research to back it up" is what we're talking about here not what your Funk&Wagnalls defines it as. Tom is asking them to explain their sarcastic skepticism. 

Providing a tortoise with their needed life-giving/sustaining humidity/water is not a science.. regardless how anyone defines it.

TEK



PeanutbuttER said:


> Redfoot NERD said:
> 
> 
> > PeanutbuttER said:
> ...



Are you talking out of both sides of your mouth PB. Say what you mean and there's less chance of being misunderstood. 

Do you believe that those of us that have in fact demonstrated what an ample amount of humidity/hydration - backed with pics - can do.... just might be what these different species of tortoises require "in the wild"? Do you need a list of us? A very few occasionally post here.. more seldom do anymore.. and there are several who never will because of the "Scientific Rhetoric" that goes on here.

Let's see the hands of the 'newbies' out there that really care about all of this yaddayadda -






TEK


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## Robert (Jan 13, 2011)

"Hand Raised"


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## Balboa (Jan 13, 2011)

Tom said:


> Lately is has been suggested that high humidity, moisture and hydration is a "band-aid" for some other husbandry problem. Similarly, it has been suggested the very high moisture levels are "balancing" out some other husbandry deficiency. I strongly disagree, based on decades of personal observation with several species, conversations with top pros, and the experiences of many people right here on the forum. I would like the proponents of these theories to tell me where and what the deficiency is in my husbandry.



Hmmm I'm a bit confused Tom. Who's been a "proponent" of the band aid theory? I can't help but think you're talking to me. As far as I know I'm the only one that's brought up the "Band-Aid" idea, but that's just a way to paraphrase Andy Highfield's ideas on the subject, and that doesn't mean I think he's right. He MIGHT be, but he could just as easily be WRONG, don't know yet, I've just referred to it. At that same time I clearly stated that the "band-aid" idea if it was correct

Does Not Apply to TOM. 



Tom said:


> Some had water bowls, some didn't. I usually soaked two or three times a week. More for babies, less for juvies and adults. For all of that time I used either some sort of dry pellet or sani-chips as a substrate. The tops of the enclosures were alway left open and the hides were dry.
> 
> All of my torts pyramided. ALL of them. 100%. Since implementing the "wet" routine (damp substrate, high humidity, shell spraying several times daily, daily soaks and water sprayed on the food) Not ONE single tort out of 42 has shown any signs of pyramiding.



Well I think you point out the flaw in your PREVIOUS cares fairly well. The poor torts were dehydrated and cooked. Even Andy Highfield does not advocate that level of dryness. (on paper at least, unfortunately the cares he advocates will lead to that level of dryness if necessary precautions are not taken, which is my big beef with his cares)



Tom said:


> All the humidity (which despite my best efforts is only around 50% in the room and 70-80% in the covered tort enclosures) just keeps them from dehydrating in between drinks as rapidly.



This is interesting to me. I'm getting the same kind of results. 

To be honest I think that's Andy's point and the one he's failing to get across. It is extremely difficult to get true extreme humidity (80-100) even in nature. The humidity crowd argues we need 90+, he says it doesn't exist, argument developes.

It all comes down to extremes. Its always black or white to most people. Either it has to be desert dry or rainforest wet. Hot or Cold, Bright or Dark, Lotsa protein, no protein, etc etc , on and on. In reality the true need usually falls somewhere in between.

The experts back then told you they needed to be dry. You were a good keeper, and followed their advice to the extreme. You saw that didn't work. Now you counter it with the extreme. Is that much humidity/hydration actually needed? probably, but we don't know, we just know it works.

Why is such extreme hydration probably needed? IMHO because of heat lamps and humidity/temperature differentials. Eliminate those things (as you and I have talked about) and you can get by with less humidity/hydration (I suspect).

My "gut" instinct on pyramiding at this point is that EJ was correct, in that pyramiding is purely cosmetic. Let the carapace become over dry, and pyramiding will result. This is most easily beaten by extreme hydration, as it is far too easy for a tortoise to become dehydrated.

In the past this hit tortoises with a "double whammy". Not only are their shells deformed from the dehydration, but their physiological processes as well, leading to any number of health disorders, hence the connection seen by many "experts" between pyramiding and mbd.

I am however willing to entertain the notion that I am wrong, hence my usual inclusion of the "other-side".

It is after all worthless scientific speculation and I am an inexperienced keeper so all of my efforts to understand the principles involved are meaningless in the eyes of the vocal majority.


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## Edna (Jan 13, 2011)

I'm guessing that when onarock was talking about lack of scientific research for particular husbandry practices, he was referring to research done by the scientific method. You know: hypothesis, design an experiment, variables, control group, conclusion, all of that. If one were trying to use the scientific method to prove what husbandry practices would result in the best long-term health of the tortoise, first we'd have a debate about how to keep the control group(s). Then the researcher would have to decide which variable to test, and he might as well test them all or we're 30 years into the future without have the information we need. With multiple subjects in each group, and multiple species, over many many years, you are talking about a vast and extremely expensive undertaking. It would not be difficult to design such research, but where is the money for it? Who among us can really treat our torts as subjects and continue on with an experiment even if the results are visibly negative long before the term of experimentation has ended? Not me. I'm content with the knowledge we have from observations, anecdotes, etc.


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## bettinge (Jan 13, 2011)

TortyQueen said:


> I'm guessing that when onarock was talking about lack of scientific research for particular husbandry practices, he was referring to research done by the scientific method. You know: hypothesis, design an experiment, variables, control group, conclusion, all of that. If one were trying to use the scientific method to prove what husbandry practices would result in the best long-term health of the tortoise, first we'd have a debate about how to keep the control group(s). Then the researcher would have to decide which variable to test, and he might as well test them all or we're 30 years into the future without have the information we need. With multiple subjects in each group, and multiple species, over many many years, you are talking about a vast and extremely expensive undertaking. It would not be difficult to design such research, but where is the money for it? Who among us can really treat our torts as subjects and continue on with an experiment even if the results are visibly negative long before the term of experimentation has ended? Not me. I'm content with the knowledge we have from observations, anecdotes, etc.



Well written.....and I agree!


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## dmmj (Jan 13, 2011)

Also you would need a control group, one where you would be deliberately pyramiding them. That is why I could never be a researcher I could not deliberately make one group unhealthy.


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## John (Jan 13, 2011)

out of curiousity where did the 80% number come from what calculations led too this.are we speculating that a leopard tort hatchling in africa most of the for that matter all find a hide that is 80 f and 80% rh and are able too remain there for a year or more?from what i've seen too dry has been tried and failed,adding a humid hide has been added and succeeeded,what has led too go swamp,were the fife brothers wrong,are their claims of smooth healthy torts lies.why was it felt needed too go more extreme?


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## Madkins007 (Jan 13, 2011)

Tom- these are my thoughts, for what they are worth.

1.) You say that even with all this you are only getting 50% humidity generally and 70% in the enclosed habitats. Since most homes are 30-50% relative humidity to start with, I would suggest that this would be evidence that your 'over-the-top' approach IS INDEED 'balancing'. Your natural temps and humidity need heroic efforts to provide what might be considered to be a reasonable ambient humidity.

2.) The side effects I would watch for in your set-up would be in the actual scute development, as Andy suggested (thin, weak scutes). In other settings, where the method you describe would result in much higher humidity levels, I would be concerned about environmental shell rot, mold and mildew formation, lung/respiratory issues, etc.- but these would be because of the high ambient humidity for tortoise species unused to it.

3.) Over-hydration would be 'water intoxication', which can be fatal in some circumstances. Not that this will happen to the tortoises in your situation, just pointing out that there are consequences to too much of something just as there are consequences to too little.

4.) I am still wondering about Andy's concerns about bone density. He can be annoying sometimes, but the guy usually knows what he is talking about. If torts are not pyramided, but still have spongy bones, I would still say they have a form of MBD.


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## John (Jan 13, 2011)

and so were clear my post is a question not an attack on an idea or person.


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## dave_and_angie (Jan 13, 2011)

[/quote]
Let's see the hands of the 'newbies' out there that really care about all of this 
TEK 
[/quote]

* Hand Raised *


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## ALDABRAMAN (Jan 13, 2011)

Redfoot NERD said:


> matt41gb said:
> 
> 
> > Why not research the tortoises natural habitat and keep accordingly? What's so hard about that?
> ...



That works for me, proven and consistant.


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## mike1011 (Jan 13, 2011)

hello all, I am not debating the humidity thing but just throwing in that with the humidity and moist substrate comes as madkins007 pointed out the very high risk of plastron infections. The substrates in these types of settings(which I also use) must be sanitized daily with chlorhexidine or equivalent and changed regulary. O.K. enough said continue with the fighting!


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## Yvonne G (Jan 13, 2011)

When the big wigs go out into the field to study tortoises and their habits, they don't ever see baby tortoises, so most of the "scientific" info we have on tortoises talks about the larger tortoises. Tom's "study" concerns baby tortoises.


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## Benjamin (Jan 13, 2011)

emysemys said:


> When the big wigs go out into the field to study tortoises and their habits, they don't ever see baby tortoises, so most of the "scientific" info we have on tortoises talks about the larger tortoises. Tom's "study" concerns baby tortoises.



"Big wigs" generally are not out in the field. Those are mostly students.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 13, 2011)

Redfoot NERD said:


> PeanutbuttER said:
> 
> 
> > Redfoot NERD said:
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Terry, I did say what I meant. That sentence can be taken two ways: the way I meant it and the way you took it. 

As far as "raising them as if they're in the wild", well I don't think that's really possible right now and I doubt very highly that you yourself are doing this. Where do they get dry cat food in the wild for instance? For that matter, when does the wild food god toss greens in their wild fenced-in enclosures? Yeah we can mimic humidity based on probes that aren't in burrows but you and I both know that is not the same. 

I am not saying that in the wild hatchlings have one set of environmental parameters or another, but I am saying that nobody knows. The research and field work just doesn't exist yet in sufficient amounts. Plus for many species there really isn't anyone doing the research (that I'm aware of at least) so I don't see a time when we fully understand "wild-based" husbandry based on actual observation instead of speculation. Or perhaps you have spent years studying redfoots in their natural habitat and you are the expert. If not, then you and I (yes I the lowly "newbie") are on the same level and are both providing care according to our own speculation. Yes we find things that work, but we don't know how or why. So we continue them, but unless we use "science" we're not going to find out if there is something that works even better. 

Now can we be done with your cryptic spouting of "anti-scientific rhetoric" and get back to Tom's actual question please?


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## zzzdanz (Jan 13, 2011)

Yes we find things that work, but we don't know how or why. So we continue them, but unless we use "science" we're not going to find out if there is something that works even better. 


Perfectly said!


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 13, 2011)

PeanutbuttER said:


> Redfoot NERD said:
> 
> 
> > PeanutbuttER said:
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PB I never got away from Tom's question. I stated that there will be those that cry that unless it can be proven "scientifically" then it is not 'safe' or could have side-effects that could be fatal.. or something - and you and a few others have said exactly what we knew you were going to say.

It can't be "scientific" if/because we don't have the time or resources or numbers or willingness to subject the animals to what [ they've already been subjected to that hasn't worked ] it would take to be a scientific experiment. So we do what Matt suggested and find out what the basic environment is that each tortoise lives in and do our best from there. Common sense is important too.

So you don't think it's possible or doubt I [ and others ] are doing it the way they live in the wild. We must be doing something right.. they're happy enough to make babies. And I have been for many years.. ( various turtle/tortoise species ) off and on since 1975. Does that make me a scientist?

So far not one has said how providing humidity/water in the mix can be dangerous. So let's keep it in context and answer Tom's question.. anyone?

TEK


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## Tom (Jan 13, 2011)

matt41gb said:


> Why not research the tortoises natural habitat and keep accordingly? What's so hard about that?
> 
> -Matt



Hi Matt. I did this post late last night and it directly addresses your question.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Wise-Words

Always glad to hear from you.



PeanutbuttER said:


> matt41gb said:
> 
> 
> > Why not research the tortoises natural habitat and keep accordingly? What's so hard about that?
> ...




I would also add that the studies done are very short term and only reflect conditions for a fraction of the year in one tiny area within a species range. Also, as you noted, each study only addresses ONE species within that tiny fraction of the range during the tiny fraction of a year.




kyryah said:


> I don't look at humidity as the band aid. Rather, it is the glue that holds the puzzle together.



I agree. All the elements must be there.

And that's my point. I'm not going all crazy with the water to over-compensate for some other deficiency. The water is just a necessary part of the "smooth tortoise" equation.



TortyQueen said:


> I'm guessing that when onarock was talking about lack of scientific research for particular husbandry practices, he was referring to research done by the scientific method. You know: hypothesis, design an experiment, variables, control group, conclusion, all of that. If one were trying to use the scientific method to prove what husbandry practices would result in the best long-term health of the tortoise, first we'd have a debate about how to keep the control group(s). Then the researcher would have to decide which variable to test, and he might as well test them all or we're 30 years into the future without have the information we need. With multiple subjects in each group, and multiple species, over many many years, you are talking about a vast and extremely expensive undertaking. It would not be difficult to design such research, but where is the money for it? Who among us can really treat our torts as subjects and continue on with an experiment even if the results are visibly negative long before the term of experimentation has ended? Not me. I'm content with the knowledge we have from observations, anecdotes, etc.



Pure genius Edna. This is what needs to be done. In an informal way I have always looked to my adults as a control group. I raised them in basically the same way, only very dry. All my new ones have had ONE major variable changed. Water. Water in the form of humidity, hydration and shell spraying. 



squamata said:


> out of curiousity where did the 80% number come from what calculations led too this.are we speculating that a leopard tort hatchling in africa most of the for that matter all find a hide that is 80 f and 80% rh and are able too remain there for a year or more?from what i've seen too dry has been tried and failed,adding a humid hide has been added and succeeeded,what has led too go swamp,were the fife brothers wrong,are their claims of smooth healthy torts lies.why was it felt needed too go more extreme?



Good question. I credit Maggie for posting that number first, but I could be wrong. It seems about right and I'm pretty sure that is also the number used in the highest humidity level in the "Austrian" study.



mike1011 said:


> hello all, I am not debating the humidity thing but just throwing in that with the humidity and moist substrate comes as madkins007 pointed out the very high risk of plastron infections. The substrates in these types of settings(which I also use) must be sanitized daily with chlorhexidine or equivalent and changed regulary. O.K. enough said continue with the fighting!



Not true for sulcatas and leopards Mike. Mine are all on wet coco coir, coco chips, orchid bark, or "forest floor" mixes and I have never sprayed any kind of disinfectant in there. In fact I never clean or replace the substrate at all. They defecate in their daily soaks , so there is almost never any filth in their enclosure. Left over food is removed by hand daily. All of my torts of all ages have perfectly healthy plastrons and two of the most knowledgeable tortoise vets that I know have each only seen ONE single case in their entire careers. Each of the two cases was due to other mitigating factors.



Balboa said:


> Hmmm I'm a bit confused Tom. Who's been a "proponent" of the band aid theory? I can't help but think you're talking to me. As far as I know I'm the only one that's brought up the "Band-Aid" idea, but that's just a way to paraphrase Andy Highfield's ideas on the subject, and that doesn't mean I think he's right. He MIGHT be, but he could just as easily be WRONG, don't know yet, I've just referred to it. At that same time I clearly stated that the "band-aid" idea if it was correct



Balboa, to be honest I didn't even remember who coined the phrase "band-aid". It seemed several people supported the idea and NO ONE has ever pointed out to me what (other than lots of water) has been so lacking in my husbandry all these years. From where I sit NOTHING has been lacking (EXCEPT WATER). This has been a source of great frustration for me for a while now. Many people (who don't want to believe the humidity thing) want to write this point off and not address it. They ignore this question every time it comes up. They say "its diet", "its calcium", "its sunshine", etc... I say wait I had all those things and everything else too, but they still pyramided. NOW that I have all of those things PLUS the water, they DON'T pyramid.

I consider you (AND Onarock) friends and cohorts in this great hobby that we all participate in. We all want answers to these questions and I'm trying to convince the un-convinceable that we HAVE the answer to THIS question. EVERY tort of EVERY species raised with any variation of the "wet" routine grows up smooth and healthy. Testudo, redfoot, sulcata, both subspecies of leopard, galops, aldabs, stars, radiateds, CDTs, TTs... the list gets longer every day. There are ongoing pics and updates to support this all over the forum. The Fife's have been doing a much milder version of this for 10 years or more. One long time tort keeper told me he's been doing it since the 60's. Terry K has been doing it for nearly ten years. The evidence is growing and insurmountable. I just can't see what there is to argue about.

We should all be critical of new stuff. Like insects for babies, for example, haha. We should all question things and never stop trying to learn. But there must come a point when we say a round wheel DOES roll more efficiently than a square wheel, no matter what anyone's argument is. I, and several others, have done the research. We have done the experiments. We have seen the evidence both ways first hand. We have reviewed all of the facts from MANY sources, and dammit, torts raised with humidity and hydration DON'T pyramid and they ARE as healthy or healthier than any other tortoise out there raised any other way.

Balboa and others, You are all a necessary part of this debate. Never stop challenging or questioning the status quo. With out your questions and doubts, post like this and threads like this would never happen. I think we all learn the most when there is this sort of RESPECTFUL conflict and debate. It saddens me greatly when people get upset and leave right at the height of their most valuable input. It took my ranting and raving to bring Terry K. back into this discussion a year ago and we are all the better for it in my opinion. Unfortunately many others have chosen to leave.

I do love all the supportive comments and most of the people here have been very supportive and respectful even if they don't fully agree or understand my points sometimes. For that I am very thankful.

I feel I should point out something that Mark brought up. I went to the extreme with Daisy, my three year old, out of terrible frustration AND to prove a point one way or the other. I did just that and have learned a tremendous amount from my little guinea pig. I always had her health and well being in mind and proceeded with great caution, but I did proceed. I DO NOT advocate anyone needed to go to THAT extreme, but it does serve as a good example that even at that extreme, no harm is done and in fact she has become one of my greatest tortoise keeping triumphs. You can SEE the evidence of my efforts forever recorded in her growth rings and scutes. In an "average" American household I believe the Fife's method of offering a simple humid hide box will be enough to prevent pyramiding, ASSUMING that you are starting with a hatchling that is already smooth and NOT dehydrated. Personally, because I know that it does no harm AND I believe it is of great benefit, I choose to use more wetness and humidity than what they advocate.

One way or another we will all continue to learn on this subject and over time a consensus will be reached. Thanks to everyone for participating.


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## John (Jan 14, 2011)

supportive tom,lol thats an understatement.I'm starting too wonder if they will drink kool-aid for ya.lol for the record i am not debating the humidity thing some here may know its not a new concept in the reptile world,actually I'm not debating it at all i am more concerned with the way its come too daily soaks,misting three or moretimes a day wet substrate.I myself think its extreme but thats only my opinion.i keep my torts hydrated and humidity stays fairly high in my rep room due too the pythons.tom i have developed alot of respect for ya since i joined here,but i'm just the kinda guy that is not easily led there's an awful lotta cause i said so on this forum.I'd like too see the numbers and how exactly they were set.again at what point and for what reason did someone determine the fife's theory was not enough you have too go extreme.In ending this will be my last post I'm sure that makes you all happy.most of my questions go unresponded too and wash away in the thread tide and sometimes when the are answered its like the whole post wasn't even read.too those who have helped thank you again and take care


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 14, 2011)

squamata said:


> supportive tom,lol thats an understatement.I'm starting too wonder if they will drink kool-aid for ya.lol for the record i am not debating the humidity thing some here may know its not a new concept in the reptile world,actually I'm not debating it at all i am more concerned with the way its come too daily soaks,misting three or moretimes a day wet substrate.I myself think its extreme but thats only my opinion.i keep my torts hydrated and humidity stays fairly high in my rep room due too the pythons.tom i have developed alot of respect for ya since i joined here,but i'm just the kinda guy that is not easily led there's an awful lotta cause i said so on this forum.I'd like too see the numbers and how exactly they were set.again at what point and for what reason did someone determine the fife's theory was not enough you have too go extreme.In ending this will be my last post I'm sure that makes you all happy.most of my questions go unresponded too and wash away in the thread tide and sometimes when the are answered its like the whole post wasn't even read.too those who have helped thank you again and take care



Know how that goes.. about not responded too other than 'them' feeling they have to say something even tho' it's out of context, etc. Squa!

The extreme _high_ humidity levels Tom uses again are a result of the extreme LOW humidity where Tom lives. 

In the winter in the building where heaters keep the temps up [ it was single digits last night ] I have to mist more heavily because of the drying affect they create. So not only is the humidity a vital [ too often unused ] part.. it does _balance_ also.

See ya...

Terry K


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## Tom (Jan 14, 2011)

squamata said:


> supportive tom,lol thats an understatement.I'm starting too wonder if they will drink kool-aid for ya.lol for the record i am not debating the humidity thing some here may know its not a new concept in the reptile world,actually I'm not debating it at all i am more concerned with the way its come too daily soaks,misting three or moretimes a day wet substrate.I myself think its extreme but thats only my opinion.i keep my torts hydrated and humidity stays fairly high in my rep room due too the pythons.tom i have developed alot of respect for ya since i joined here,but i'm just the kinda guy that is not easily led there's an awful lotta cause i said so on this forum.I'd like too see the numbers and how exactly they were set.again at what point and for what reason did someone determine the fife's theory was not enough you have too go extreme.In ending this will be my last post I'm sure that makes you all happy.most of my questions go unresponded too and wash away in the thread tide and sometimes when the are answered its like the whole post wasn't even read.too those who have helped thank you again and take care



Somehow I've been branded the "ring-leader" in all of this. I did NOT invent these concepts. I'm just a young loud mouth screaming from the mountain top, "Hey! These really smart guys over here found something that really works!" I have gone to the extreme for two reasons. 1. Because, as Terry has repeatedly pointed out, my area and tortoise housing situation dictates it and... 2. Just to prove that even at the EXTREME, nothing bad happens, and in fact you end up with smooth, healthy torts. Just look at Daisy. She started out horribly pyramided for a 3 month old. It took a long time, but I turned her around and now she's growing at a "normal" rate and growing totally smooth. I don't want to "lead" anyone. I don't want any sort of title or recognition out of any of this. I'm just very passionate about learning to care for my animals properly and ending pyramiding. I've done a lot of research and trial and error to get here and I want to share what I've observed along the way so that everyone else does not have to learn all that I've learned "the hard way".

Everytime I mention how swampy I keep Daisy, I add in the caveat that no one really NEEDS to go to such an extreme. Everyone seems to focus on the swampy part and miss the caveat.

I don't know why you think anyone will be happy that this is your last post. I enjoy your contributions to these and other threads. What I would really like is for you to show everyone, in detail, how YOU keep YOUR torts, and what the results are. That's the one thing lacking from the "other" side of these discussions. The people who are backing the humidity/hydration thing like me, Terry K, Terry O, Neal, Dean, and many others post regular pics with detailed descriptions and pics of our enclosures. We are not saying "Hey everybody MUST do THIS!" We are simply saying, "Hey, check this out. This is what I'm doing over here at my place, and these are the results I'm getting". The argument comes when people come on and say "That won't work", or "That's too much", or "That's not healthy", or "It doesn't happen that way in the wild", or any other falsehood. We are demonstrating in clear detail that it DOES work, its NOT too much, it IS healthy and NOBODY knows what happens to babies in the wild.

Be well Squamata. You are always welcome here.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jan 14, 2011)

Received these pics from someone ( didn't know ) who followed my caresheet.. not even my redfoot -











These went to Pat in Washington state as 2 month-olds -






and 6-8 mo.- olds -






She sent pics a year and two years later.. was worried that a couple of them had grown too fast and were not smooth -


























Two more of mine.. 






*5 years later -*











My favorite "hold-back" - compare nose-pattens -






*3 years later -*






How many more do you need to see?

TEK


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## stells (Jan 16, 2011)

How many more of these threads do we need...

We get it ok...

Some think Humidity is the be all and end all...

Others.... think it isn't everything...

Can't we have differeces of opinion...

You really don't have to work this hard to prove yourselves... since i have given up trying... its so much better... 

Do what you do... we will do what we do... end of


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## Jermosh (Jan 16, 2011)

I am a real green horn in tort keeping, I have had other reptiles of course, but still a real amature. So let me talk about from the outside a bit. 

I think what people are being confused on is that there is no water in torts environment, this is untrue, even for DTs. From morning dew to mud wallows, torts know where to get water and moisture. DTs and I would imagine other low water torts know how and where to build wallows to capture rain, dew, and dry river bed or springs. This is one of the reasons why DTs cannot be successfully rehabilitated back into the wild from what I understand. 

The other part is what is watering, I am of the impression as is my vet that between lawn watering and sprinkling we do not need to add any more moisture except a misting system for heat control in the summer and a fresh bowl of water, I am thinking of making a cement wallow that would be autofill though. I still do a weekly soak or more in the winter since my watering times are down. 

As for calling it a band-aid? Depends, in the end we are caring for an animal that is taken out of its environment that it has evolved for. So anything we do is less then ideal so to speak, but we are trying for the ideal of a long term commitment, which is certainly not a band-aid IMHO.

Also want to add, that there is a difference between over-watering and an over moist environment. One is almost impossible to cause damage other then drowning, the other can cause mold issues that a foreign animals might not be able to handle, but can be managed.


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