# Tortoises and box turtles



## GeoTerraTestudo (Jul 23, 2013)

As many of us know, it's not a good idea to house different species of tortoise together. This is because they might have different environmental requirements, they could fight or hybridize, and they could spread diseases to each other.

However, recently the question has come up as to whether it's okay to mix tortoises and box turtles. One good say that, for the same reasons above, it's not a good idea. On the other hand, although tortoises and box turtles are both chelonians, they are in different families. Therefore, they can have similar environmental requirements, they might get along, and they can't hybridize. What's more, it's not clear whether they can share diseases or not.

So what do you think? Is it okay for tortoises and box turtles to cohabitat? Please vote on the poll and share you opinion below. Thanks!


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## StudentoftheReptile (Jul 23, 2013)

I'm going with "No, never" just to deter novices from doing it. The few success stories (mostly with box turtles & redfoots) are exceptions to the rule, and seem to be influenced by experienced keepers with good QT practices. Do I agree with it? Not really, but I will acknowledge that some folks are lucky in spite of the odds.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Jul 23, 2013)

Yes, that person has successful kept three-toed boxies with redfoots for a long time. Both species come from moist forests, and seem to be doing well together. My question is this: is the risk of disease transmission reduced because this person is an experienced keeper, or is it just that the biological barrier between boxies and torties is greater than we thought? I don't know.

In another thread, somebody was keeping an ornate boxie with a Russian tortoise. This is essentially the same situation, except in a drier habitat. The two seem to get along okay, and have stayed healthy. So maybe the risk of disease contagion between torties and boxies is lower? I don't know. After all, we're mammals and we can catch bird flu. Anybody have horror stories of torties and boxies making each other sick?


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## jaizei (Jul 23, 2013)

I see it as no different than mixing species of tortoises. Depends on the person doing it and the animals involved.


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## wellington (Jul 23, 2013)

StudentoftheReptile said:


> I'm going with "No, never" just to deter novices from doing it. The few success stories (mostly with box turtles & redfoots) are exceptions to the rule, and seem to be influenced by experienced keepers with good QT practices. Do I agree with it? Not really, but I will acknowledge that some folks are lucky in spite of the odds.



I totally agree with the above.


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## Team Gomberg (Jul 23, 2013)

This is interesting. Hmmm. 

May I add aquatic turtles to this mix?

Why can a pond have RES, painted turtles, cooters, etc. and it is considered ok? Or maps and musks? Isn't that mixing species? 

I'll be honest that has confused me big time. I keep my Russians separate from the Leopards and always will. I am fine with it, set up for it and have no desire for them to mix ever. But when I started a tank for aquatics no one could tell me why mixing aquatic turtles is considered ok. ?? 

Heather
Sent from my Android TFO app


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## johnsonnboswell (Jul 23, 2013)

All those times my boxies are dancing in the rain and the RTs are sulking lead me to say no. The boxies are happier in a wider range of temps and in a softer more nutrient rich soil. It's in the summer when they are outdoors that their requirements seem to diverge most.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Jul 23, 2013)

Team Gomberg said:


> This is interesting. Hmmm.
> 
> May I add aquatic turtles to this mix?
> 
> ...



Heather, please allow me to clear up a few things. The reason it's not a good idea to mix tortoise species, is because you run the risk of introducing diseases to animals that are not adapted to them. For example, if you keep a South American tortoise and an African tortoise together, the South American one could get a virus or bacterium from the other side of the planet that it's not equipped to fight, and it could succumb. Ditto for the African one.

In contrast, it's not the same thing with freshwater turtles from the Southeastern US. Many of these species co-occur in the same waters in nature, so they should all have some level of immunity against the same, common pool of diseases. Ditto for the numerous turtle species living together in Southeast Asia. However, if you were to keep American freshwater turtles with Asian freshwater turtles, then they could swap diseases and get sick, because they are related but don't normally co-occur.

That's why I wonder about box turtles and tortoises. They may be from opposite sides of the world, so they may carry different diseases. However, since they're not closely related, they might not be a high contamination risk. Just a thought.


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## Millerlite (Jul 23, 2013)

I see where your coming from, and I do see some people housing box turtles with tortoises in an outdoor setting and had no problems, not saying I would do it personally I found box turtles to like lower cut grass and lots of rain moisture and soil. Redfooted tortoises I can see and mt. Tortoises as closer to what a box turtle would need as far as habitat and being close to each others care as far as humidity and such.

Going on the turtle route, how about people that house and I've seen ponds that's why I mention the species with these together. African sidenecks with res and cooters. Or reeves with mud and musk... They are from opposite sides of the world and seem to do alright on pond setting, even tank if big enough


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## Team Gomberg (Jul 23, 2013)

Thanks man  

I'm hoping more people chime in here.

Heather
Sent from my Android TFO app


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## Baoh (Jul 23, 2013)

Box turtles and tortoises can be hosts for several of the same species of parasitic worms and protozoans as well. I am not sure how far all of the viral jumps go. There are some in some species of tortoises, but not necessarily all. Heck, Chelydra have STDs if I am remembering that correctly. Responses ranging from mild "live with it" infections to devastating depend on the individual animals, the organism(s) infecting them, and the environmental parameters. A cooler animal can succumb more easily. An animal with a really poor diet can succumb more easily. An animal that does not have a large space through which it can roam to avoid continuous self-reinfection and increased parasitic load can succumb more easily. They can infect each other. It comes down to the quality of execution and either pure luck without quarantine or a decent quarantine period and process to allow a person time to evaluate whether or not animals are infected. It is much easier to maintain the quality of a mixed keeping setup when dealing with captive born animals that may not have had particular exposures. If pathogenic exposure and infection does take place, CB status counts for jack.

Of course, if neither animal has anything infectious to either species, it will not matter. There will be no spontaneous generation of an infectious agent.

Pretty much the same for this as it relates to mixing different tortoise species. I find it kind of funny when folks take it super-far, too, with sympatric species, but human behavior provides me with most of my instances of amusement. I have seen carbonaria in the vicinity of denticulata in the wild now. I have observed graeca, hermanni, and marginata in the same wild locations countless times (although mostly marginata and hermanni) on land my family owns in Greece.

Water turtles work the same way, too. Some farms segregate species (not that this really matters if a member of the same species is also infected in that kind of scenario). Some do not. That includes wildly different species from far removed continents. If they would be so easily wiped out, farms employing mixed ponds would fail quickly. However, they do not.

Naturally, if a keeper has a group of one species that is running "clean" and some new animals (regardless of whether it is the same or a different species) are brought in with an infectious agent (protozoa can be especially nasty in less spacious tub/bin/viv setups that hold more moisture and waste) and cross-contamination takes place (regardless of mixed housing or separate), things can potentially go very badly very quickly. 

Every time someone complains on the internet about this, I make a hybrid. Kidding.







Or am I?


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## Terry Allan Hall (Jul 24, 2013)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> As many of us know, it's not a good idea to house different species of tortoise together. This is because they might have different environmental requirements, they could fight or hybridize, and they could spread diseases to each other.
> 
> However, recently the question has come up as to whether it's okay to mix tortoises and box turtles. One good say that, for the same reasons above, it's not a good idea. On the other hand, although tortoises and box turtles are both chelonians, they are in different families. Therefore, they can have similar environmental requirements, they might get along, and they can't hybridize. *What's more, it's not clear whether they can share diseases or not.*
> 
> So what do you think? Is it okay for tortoises and box turtles to cohabitat? Please vote on the poll and share you opinion below. Thanks!



OTOH, because it's not clear whether they can share diseases or not, the possibility of sharing disease remains.

Also, I've noticed that one of my Hermann's torts, Ptolemy, is VERY interested in what my daughter's Ornate box turtles eat, and that's entirely too much protein for a European on a regular basis.

For a redfoot, which prefers more animal-based protein, it might be fine, and I know there are some folks who keep their redfoots and box turtles together w/ no problems, so far.




Team Gomberg said:


> This is interesting. Hmmm.
> 
> May I add aquatic turtles to this mix?
> 
> ...



I've wondered about that, too.


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## IBeenEasy (Jul 24, 2013)

Baoh said:


> Box turtles and tortoises can be hosts for several of the same species of parasitic worms and protozoans as well. I am not sure how far all of the viral jumps go. There are some in some species of tortoises, but not necessarily all. Heck, Chelydra have STDs if I am remembering that correctly. Responses ranging from mild "live with it" infections to devastating depend on the individual animals, the organism(s) infecting them, and the environmental parameters. A cooler animal can succumb more easily. An animal with a really poor diet can succumb more easily. An animal that does not have a large space through which it can roam to avoid continuous self-reinfection and increased parasitic load can succumb more easily. They can infect each other. It comes down to the quality of execution and either pure luck without quarantine or a decent quarantine period and process to allow a person time to evaluate whether or not animals are infected. It is much easier to maintain the quality of a mixed keeping setup when dealing with captive born animals that may not have had particular exposures. If pathogenic exposure and infection does take place, CB status counts for jack.
> 
> Of course, if neither animal has anything infectious to either species, it will not matter. There will be no spontaneous generation of an infectious agent.
> 
> ...



lolll "or am i? " i bet you struck a nerve with some people on that one  lolll


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Jul 24, 2013)

Baoh said:


> Every time someone complains on the internet about this, I make a hybrid. Kidding.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's really messed up! 

Anyway, your comment about Greeks, Hermanns, and marginateds co-occuring in Greece is really interesting. I've often wondered if that happens, because that's where those three congeneric species' ranges meet (as you said, this is like redfoots and yellowfoots in South America). How often have you seen that? Is it rare, uncommon, or pretty common? I doubt if they'd hybridize in the wild, but from a disease standpoint, they probably have resistance to the same pathogens if they're sympatric, much like the case with sympatric species of freshwater turtles.

Yes, quarantining is of course an important practice, but resistant animals might be asymptomatic. That's why it's not a good idea to mix species that don't normally co-occur in nature. It's okay if they're all resistant (same species or unaffected), but when mixing species, you run the risk of asymptomatic animals infecting vulnerable animals that have no history with a given pathogen.

Good point about some pathogens being transmitted more easily than others. Just because boxies and torties don't share all diseases, that doesn't mean they can't share some. I'd really like to hear from folks with experience in this, good or bad. I've heard of this working, but when has it failed?


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## Baoh (Jul 24, 2013)

IBeenEasy said:


> lolll "or am i? " i bet you struck a nerve with some people on that one  lolll



lol



GeoTerraTestudo said:


> Baoh said:
> 
> 
> > Every time someone complains on the internet about this, I make a hybrid. Kidding.
> ...



I spent most of my time in the South, but I have origins from several areas areas in the North, too, and have spent some time there. In the South, I come across primarily hermanni and marginata to a less frequent extent. In the North, I come across all three species I mentioned. I have seen hermanni in the same area as marginata maybe a hundred or more times. I have seen all three species in the North together only around a handful of times. I do not think the hermanni are hybridizing with anyone that I can tell. I know the graeca and marginata have, but I do not know if they have in the natural settings I have observed. At a few monasteries, I have seen some marginata x graeca looking animals in surrounding garden areas, but I think this is more about having a limited number of available sexual partners (that is just my opinion, though).

That said, there is a different between innate and acquired immunity, and they can pass on things like parasites easily. It is usually the roaming and fiber consumption that keeps the load manageable. Oh, and the wild ones tend to be heavily infested with ticks. I spent many an hour removing them from every tortoise I would find as a child before I would send it on its way or put into my summer enclosures (where I would keep mainly hermanni and occasionally a marginata, but not graeca, as my enclosures were in the family land in the South on Evia).

Re: quarantine and asymptomatic animals. Granted, but the same thing can be said for members of the same species, in which case one would never even match up members of one species from differing sources. Quarantine alone does not rule out disease absolutely. It simply builds increasing confidence in favor of a state of wellness or good health over time and prevents transmission during this period. That said, I mentioned evaluation. This goes to the issue I have spoken about regarding how this (species mixing) is not necessarily something just anyone should do. I typically take a neutral stance and usually only respond to absolutism, but I discourage it for some scenarios as much as I am okay with it -but not an advocate- in others. The quarantine, for a person with resources, is also a good time to more deeply examine the tortoise. Testing can be done during this time. Viruses are typically out of scope because of the difficulty of testing, but anything intestinal is game. Worms and protozoans can be observed easily enough, symptoms or not, and especially over time. This standard of evaluation has an equal value regardless of species in preventing disease transmission as well as in determining the value and options of a treatment plan if an animal is found to have an infection. While a foreign pathogen may be more virulent in one new host situation due to a lack of immunity, evolution can also favor adaptation of the pathogen that is more familiar with its host such that it can more specifically infect. It is kind of a mixed bag argument with positive and negative aspects regardless of one's approach.

For same or mixed:

I advocate quarantine across the board. I advocate behavioral observation across the board (this becomes a bigger issue in closer confinement than in a huge enclosure). I advocate testing if possible across the board. I do not think people should just toss animals together. I think, with some thought and work put in, people who approach this in certain ways have a much better chance of success than those who exercise pure luck. I know, as I have seen, same species mixing without reasonable precautions fail as spectacularly as mixed. There are tons of instances of successes and failures with both, but conversations with a number of individuals who have had success with carefully performed mixing have ended with them telling me that they would rather not make mention because they do not want to get a headache over explaining their stories to people who have made some prejudgments. 

I really prefer that newbies NOT entertain species mixing for the sake of the animals' well being, but I also acknowledge that it can be done well by certain individuals. A problem might be that folks are overly confident when starting out, though, and that could end badly for their animals.

I would say that, most of the time, pairing a WC Russian with a CB adult male sulcata is going to end with a very bad result in at least one direction (behaviorally or in terms of disease). However, I have seen this exact scenario play out well to the tune of decades of harmony. However, due to the high probability for failure and the exceptionally infrequent likelihood and nature of success in this scenario, you would never see me saying this is a very good idea.

However, putting a female denticulata with a female carbonaria with the precautions and provisions I have mentioned just now and before is not unreasonable and has an incredibly high chance of success. If done, I would say not to skimp on the measures taken to ensure success just because it has a better chance. I still would say it would be wiser for newbies to institute the same measures and STILL work with just one species.


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## Baoh (Jul 24, 2013)

Because I had forgotten to mention it, that female denticulata refuses male denticulata (as well as male carbonaria). But she is sweet on my male ivory sulcata for whatever reason...and he is sweet on...everybody. lol

I am fortunate in that he extremely docile in general behavior and breeds readily. Many males are either aggressive in multiple domains or are "lazy" breeders, neither of which would be a good fit for my program(s).


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## johnsonnboswell (Jul 24, 2013)

On a practical say to day level, unless they share the same dietary needs, someone's health will suffer. Box turtles are omnivores and need to eat a lot of things most tortoises should avoid.


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## Baoh (Jul 24, 2013)

Are you forcing them to consume the same diet or are they free to self-select from a variety? What does a box turtle need to eat that a tortoise should avoid?


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## johnsonnboswell (Jul 24, 2013)

Box turtles are omnivores. They eat fruits and vegetables and mushrooms and live foods such as bugs, worms, slugs, snails, eggs, meat, fish... Given a chance, they'll eat carrion and pinky mice, too. 

I would not trust my RTs to self select a diet that is good for them and ignore berries or banana or sweet potatoes, etc. Pretty much everything they are supposed to avoid is on the BT menu.


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## terryo (Jul 24, 2013)

I've kept my Cherry Head's with my Box turtles for years with no problems. I have friends who do the same. I think if you acquire them from breeders who have clean animals, and they are hatchlings when you put them together, and they require the same environment, and eat the same kind of foods, why would you have a problem? The only thing I do different, is when feeding them I omit the protein from the Cherry Heads food dish. There was an old lady that my Father knew that kept her tortoises with her box turtles in the same yard for over 50 years, never having any sick or dying. The tortoises came in for the Winter, and the box turtles hibernated outside.
As for having different water species together....I've kept Yellow Belly Sliders, Eastern Painted, and RES in the same pond for over thirty years with no problems. My friend has RES and Diamond Backs in his pond for years too. 
But, as some have said, it isn't good to advocate this because new keepers might think it's OK to keep a 10 year old Box Turtle with a 3 year old Russian, etc.. Mine were all hatchlings from a breeder I knew, and all needed the same type of environment.


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## Baoh (Jul 24, 2013)

johnsonnboswell said:


> Box turtles are omnivores. They eat fruits and vegetables and mushrooms and live foods such as bugs, worms, slugs, snails, eggs, meat, fish... Given a chance, they'll eat carrion and pinky mice, too.
> 
> I would not trust my RTs to self select a diet that is good for them and ignore berries or banana or sweet potatoes, etc. Pretty much everything they are supposed to avoid is on the BT menu.



My tortoises eat all of those things, too, just as they would in the wild.


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## EricIvins (Jul 24, 2013)

johnsonnboswell said:


> Box turtles are omnivores. They eat fruits and vegetables and mushrooms and live foods such as bugs, worms, slugs, snails, eggs, meat, fish... Given a chance, they'll eat carrion and pinky mice, too.
> 
> I would not trust my RTs to self select a diet that is good for them and ignore berries or banana or sweet potatoes, etc. Pretty much everything they are supposed to avoid is on the BT menu.



Tortoises are omnivores. There is not a Tortoise species on this planet that is a true vegetarian....


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Jul 24, 2013)

EricIvins said:


> Tortoises are omnivores. There is not a Tortoise species on this planet that is a true vegetarian....



I don't think that's accurate. Actually, there's no such thing as a 100% pure carnivore or herbivore. Cats eat a little bit of grass, and deer eat a small amount of meat. By that standard, all animals are omnivores. In reality, only animals that eat a wide variety of foods are truly omnivorous.

Sure, most tortoises may eat some meat if they come across it. Redfoots and their relatives eat a bit more, and box turtles eat more still. Thus, box turtles, raccoons, and humans are omnivorous. Tortoises, cattle, and elephants are herbivorous. Snapping turtles, sharks, and wolves are carnivorous.


As for cohabitating boxies and torties, to my mind, disease transmission is the biggest risk. This is because there are some tortoises whose environmental requirements are very similar to those of box turtles (e.g. redfoots and eastern boxies, or Russians and western boxies). Obviously, the two groups can't hybridize, and behaviorally they might get along. As for diet, box turtles are more omnivorous than tortoises (even redfoots don't eat as much meat as boxies do). But that's okay, as long as they're given different diets. Therefore, I think it comes down to contagion. Boah, thanks for your insightful post on that topic above.


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## jtrux (Jul 24, 2013)

When I water my Gpb's enclosure he will readily eat snails and pill bugs...my Gpp will only eat snails but not insects. I can go outside and observe this everyday if I wanted to stand there and watch them.


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## Baoh (Jul 24, 2013)

Chelydra will eat appreciable vegetation if given the opportunity.

My tortoises eat...grass, weeds, insects, mollusks, cacti, isopods, amphibians, birds, rodents, crayfish, crabs, lagomorphs, countless types of carrion, feces (sweet, sweet feces) from several types of animals, fruit, tree leaves, flowers, eggs, and some will even go for fish if provided pre-killed (like salmon) or alive in a shallow saucer, bones, and stuff I am probably not even remembering right now that is all over the map.

A star and a leopard had a tug of war with a weakened cicada the other day. 

Recent kills included a nest of bunnies I had planned to save. That was a team effort by a female sulcata and phayrei.

I think I have some photos of what I could capture after I saw several of my tortoises pin and kill an adult rabbit that got in the wrong place in their yard and did not see the first attacker sneak up. They are on my phone, so I will have to transfer them. They left one leg behind by the time they were finished.

"Don't kid yourself, Jimmy. If a [tortoise] ever got the chance, he'd eat you and everyone you care about!"

I have no doubt that I would have my fingers and face eaten off if I ever lost consciousness for enough time while in the tortoise yard.


Here is a combo made from the shot of those who ate the bunny after a few of them killed it and the hind leg. Unfortunately, the leg shot was out of focus, but I took it with a cell phone from my deck. My phone camera is great for macro shots, but is poor (or I am poor with it) for shots at distance unless I get lucky. Still, you can make up the rabbit leg. I am not sure if it was abandoned on purpose or if one of the animal's plastrons covered it by accident after the limb was severed in the frenzy.








The killing was mainly achieved by the denticulata and the pardalis x sulcata hybrid, with the latter being the first attacker. The carbonaria, gigantea, and smaller denticulata came in to seize the post-kill opportunity from where they had been eating greenery in other portions of the yard just prior (their sense of smell is keen; the Aldabra crossed nearly the whole of the yard at high speed once it smelled the kill).

I think of the use of the large swine in _Hannibal_ and see some similar manner of potential utility in tortoises. 




jtrux said:


> When I water my Gpb's enclosure he will readily eat snails and pill bugs...my Gpp will only eat snails but not insects. I can go outside and observe this everyday if I wanted to stand there and watch them.



Greg's Tuff also hunts snails.


up = out


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## Baoh (Jul 25, 2013)

By the way, smaller box turtles wander in and out of my yard where I live. We have three-toed primarily here and some Eastern boxies as well. There are some ornate boxies farther to the West, but I have only seen them out that way in this state. None in my exact area. Natural intergrades, too. I have not experienced any problems with these visitors, but it should be noted that I do not put them together on purpose and I have a prophylactic treatment program I put my tortoises through a couple times a year just as a matter of personal practice.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Jul 25, 2013)

Tortoises and iguanas are considered the only truly herbivorous reptiles, but it is true that both will eat meat from time to time. I have long said that the occasional slug or snail is good for a tortoise - particularly snails, since the shell is a good source of calcium. In addition, wild tortoises (like box turtles) may also eat carrion, scavenging the carcasses of large animals like deer, antelope, or cattle.

Again, this is true of many herbivores. I've seen footage of horses and deer eating birds, and of hippos eating carrion. However, such items are not the mainstay of these animals' diet. These animals are adapted primarily for eating vegetation, and any meat they eat is merely supplementation, mostly of protein.

The report of your tortoises cornering and eating a rabbit is very interesting. I have certainly not heard of that before. Again, it's normal for free-ranging tortoises to eat some animal matter. However, if they eat it too frequently, it can be unhealthy for them because it can be hard on their kidneys, leading to the build up of uric acid crystals in their kidneys or joints (gout). This is in contrast to box turtles, who have a much greater capacity than tortoises for ingesting meat and excreting nitrogenous waste. Indeed, their living in moist environments allows them to drink a lot and excrete ammonia and urea diluted in relatively large volumes of water. This is in contrast to most tortoises, who drink little and excrete uric acid concentrated in small volumes of water. Forest tortoises like redfoots also excrete dilute ammonia and urea, and indeed they do need more meat in their diet than other tortoises, but it's probably still not as much as boxies require.



Baoh said:


> By the way, smaller box turtles wander in and out of my yard where I live. We have three-toed primarily here and some Eastern boxies as well. There are some ornate boxies farther to the West, but I have only seen them out that way in this state. None in my exact area. Natural intergrades, too. I have not experienced any problems with these visitors, but it should be noted that I do not put them together on purpose and I have a prophylactic treatment program I put my tortoises through a couple times a year just as a matter of personal practice.



Again, very interesting. BTW - Do you mean you find intergrades of three-toed and Carolina box turtles, or hybrids of eastern and western box turtles?


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## Baoh (Jul 25, 2013)

I have not had any instances of organ issues or protein metabolism issues.

I have heard of sulcatas attacking rabbits, doves, and other creatures before. I have even heard of large sulcatas running off coyotes, which I can believe based on what I see of mine and their responses to dogs that are not mine that come up to the fence or visit from across the street if I have opened the gate to their yard (they rush at the intruders and this freaks the dogs right out). They are used to my dogs, though. 

If they are hydrated, eating plant material for pH balance and fiber, and at an acceptable temperature, I have great doubts that they will have any issues from protein consumption, although it will boost their rate of lean mass accrual like it does for pretty much all animals in a growth period. I have never seen any study examining head-to-head capacity for protein consumption and digestion between box turtles and tortoises, but that would be interesting to investigate.

Above, I mean intergrades of three-toed and Eastern box turtles. They are not rare here. I see some in my neighborhood and more at my place of work which is set on preserved land. 

Here is one of the male three-toed boxies I saved from a near-death service road splattering at work. Handsome fellow.


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## Millerlite (Jul 25, 2013)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> Tortoises and iguanas are considered the only truly herbivorous reptiles, but it is true that both will eat meat from time to time. I have long said that the occasional slug or snail is good for a tortoise - particularly snails, since the shell is a good source of calcium. In addition, wild tortoises (like box turtles) may also eat carrion, scavenging the carcasses of large animals like deer, antelope, or cattle.
> 
> Again, this is true of many herbivores. I've seen footage of horses and deer eating birds, and of hippos eating carrion. However, such items are not the mainstay of these animals' diet. These animals are adapted primarily for eating vegetation, and any meat they eat is merely supplementation, mostly of protein.
> 
> ...



How about uromasryx don't they almost eat strictly veggies?


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## Baoh (Jul 25, 2013)

I have heard they will eat some insects and possibly other little creatures, but that their diet is primarily vegetable matter.


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## Millerlite (Jul 25, 2013)

Wouldnt they be just as herbivore as a tortoise or iguana?


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## Baoh (Jul 25, 2013)

I would not say no, so...yes?


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Jul 25, 2013)

Baoh, once again, interesting stuff. Attacking rabbits and doves does sound like predation. However, chasing away canids would be for protection, not predation. No doubt, wild sullies in the Sahel have to contend with jackals, cape hunting dogs, and other carnivorans. At their size, adult sulcatas seem pretty well-equipped to deal with them.

Based on Andy Highfield's work, tortoises are not adapted to high-protein diets. Some scavenging is good, but he states that a lot of meat taxes their liver (this might have as much or more to do with fat than protein). Tortoises and even boxies that eat lots of meat seem to get liver damage, kidney stones, and even skeletal deformation. Your guys do look good, so either they're not eating that much, or else there's a huge difference between live prey and canned meat.



Millerlite said:


> How about uromasryx don't they almost eat strictly veggies?



Yes, I should have included _Uromastyx_, too. So that makes tortoises, iguanas, and _Uromastyx_ as the only herbivorous reptiles. All others are either omnivorous (like boxies, beardies, _Tiliqua_, etc), or carnivorous (like alligator snappers, monitors, snakes, etc). Most reptiles eat a lot of meat, but not quite all.


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## Baoh (Jul 26, 2013)

What type of work did Andy Highfield actually do to determine that? I would agree that fat would have a much higher chance of contributing to hepatic impairment than protein (this happens in other reptiles), but I would still like to read the reference. I only need the citation and then I can get it. Does it go by a different name? I just searched for his name as an author for peer reviewed work with "chelonian" and/or "hepatic" and/or "liver" and/or "tortoise" in databases for scientific literature, but nothing was returned.

"Experiments conducted by the author" and heavy reliance on surveys are why pieces such as this 

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/dietcons.html

are not published in more reputable settings and are not considered genuine research.



PMID: 9472813 describes a tortoise species we may be familiar with as an omnivore to touch on another part of the discussion.

PMID: 15048627 goes into the histopathology and speculates on the causes as possibly being dehydration and possibly being a high protein diet, but only that (hypothesizing) and for one animal.

PMID: 14511150 is a great study many of us have seen supporting the employment of humidity manipulation and does not indicate induction of a disease state with even 30% protein. If anything, it improves growth (lean mass).

PMID: 22290654 is also interesting, although I would say the growth-age-mortality hypothesis could also involve older WC animals unless that was excluded within (I would have to check and I feel like sleeping a little tonight for some crazy reason).

Anyway, food for thought.


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## Baoh (Jul 26, 2013)

Really, much of what I see available is speculation in one direction or the other. I would say that people should simply consider their options and follow whatever they consider to reasonably cover bases for care. As long as the animals do well, it seems fine to me.

And just because this has become a bit of running gag for me....


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Jul 26, 2013)

Baoh said:


> And just because this has become a bit of running gag for me....



You do realize, this counts as bestiality.


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