# Extra scutes



## jjaymeza (May 23, 2018)

Do tortoises with extra or split scutes produce extra or split scute babies?


----------



## Markw84 (May 24, 2018)

jjaymeza said:


> Do tortoises with extra or split scutes produce extra or split scute babies?


No. It appears to not be genetic at all. Perhaps there may be a slight propensity for split scutes genetically, but the cause of split scutes seems to be in the environment of the incubation of the eggs. High heat has some influence. Ph and/or alkalinity exposure at very early development stages may also.


----------



## teresaf (May 24, 2018)

FYI...due to the high heat influence split scute tortoises are usually female...


----------



## Tom (May 24, 2018)

jjaymeza said:


> Do tortoises with extra or split scutes produce extra or split scute babies?


This is unknown and debatable.

I use to believe that it was purely environmental, because when Incubated correctly, I never saw split scutes. When I used to incubate in my reptile room the summer temps would occasionally top out at just a little over 90. In those days I would see an occasional split scute.

Fast forward a few years, and now I'm breeding my South African leopards. My incubator is set at 87 and controlled by a digital proportion thermostat with redundant heating systems in case one were to fail somehow. I see a lot of split scutes on these babies. All three moms throw split scutes, and the mom with her own aberrant scute, throws almost half of her babies with split scutes.

Given the above two scenarios, I am now of the opinion that in most cases it is environmental, but I now also believe there is a genetic component to some cases too.


----------



## Yvonne G (May 24, 2018)

teresaf said:


> FYI...due to the high heat influence split scute tortoises are usually female...


I have two with aberrant scutes that are definitely male.


----------



## ALDABRAMAN (May 24, 2018)

Tom said:


> This is unknown and debatable.



~ I can add that we rarely get split, extra, double, multiple, divided, etc. scutes on our hatchlings. I see many that do from other sources. We incubate at very consistent and safe margins, allowing full incubation time.

~ I will add that a highly educated and extremely experienced person recently told us that the scute patterns are determined at or near the 21 day mark during the incubation process. If temperature does influence male or female and/or scute patterns, maybe this is worth exploring if someone in ambitious. We are simply not willing to try.

* @Tom This really struck me because fear issues are usually influenced or developed at or near the 21 day mark in age for puppies.

~ Here is a picture of two baby aldabras that we hatched. The clutch from 100% fertile from our top producing female. 12 were perfect and 1 had a divided rear scute.


----------



## teresaf (May 24, 2018)

Yvonne G said:


> I have two with aberrant scutes that are definitely male.


Usually? Lol. Mine is definitely female. We should do a survey....


----------



## ascott (May 24, 2018)

jjaymeza said:


> Do tortoises with extra or split scutes produce extra or split scute babies?



I knew a lady once that had an extra little nubby thumb, grew right out below her regular thumb...super creepy...but not one of her kids have the nubby thumb...so maybe just a thing that randomly happens....I could not help but look at her nub when ever she used her hands while explaining things....lol....sorry to anyone offended or anyone who may also sport a thumb nub...not bad, just different


----------



## teresaf (May 25, 2018)

ascott said:


> I knew a lady once that had an extra little nubby thumb, grew right out below her regular thumb...super creepy...but not one of her kids have the nubby thumb...so maybe just a thing that randomly happens....I could not help but look at her nub when ever she used her hands while explaining things....lol....sorry to anyone offended or anyone who may also sport a thumb nub...not bad, just different


Hahaha. On the flip side...my daughter has crooked pinky fingers...like her dad and most of his family.... : )


----------



## Sesel (May 25, 2018)

jjaymeza said:


> Do tortoises with extra or split scutes produce extra or split scute babies?



Yes, they also produce 'normal' ones.

Whether it is hereditary or not, I do not know.


Just want to share what we have observed with the Aldabra tortoises:

Incubation at room temperatures (not using incubator) of 26-30°C/78.8-86°F (let's call this Incubation1) produced 36% babies with aberrant scutes.







Incubation at room temperatures (not using incubator) of 27-34°C/80.6-93.2°F (let's call this Incubation2) produced 50% babies with aberrant scutes.

'Normal' female produced 29% (all using Incubation1) with aberrant scutes.

Female with extra scutes produced 47% with aberrant scutes. (Incubation1= 43% with aberrant scutes. Incubation2=50% with aberrant scutes.)




This year we got some incubators, if anyone is interested we can share the results in a few months.

Concerning dads, 1 mature male has aberrant scutes. The other 2 are 'normal'.

These results are based on last year's babies only, so might be skewed.


----------



## ALDABRAMAN (May 25, 2018)

Sesel said:


> Yes, they also produce 'normal' ones.
> 
> Whether it is hereditary or not, I do not know.
> 
> ...



~ That is interesting. We rarely produce any aberrant scutes, i think two total.

~ Our incubation is 85f to 86f with a term of 100 to 110 days as a norm.


----------



## jjaymeza (May 26, 2018)

I am really thinking it is genetic. I have no experience but if eggs in the same batch produce two different babies. Some how that gene may very well not be a defect. It may be something similar to the blue eyes gene. “Recessive” but common in humans that is.


----------



## Markw84 (May 26, 2018)

I think as we research this more and with more studies, we will find there is something about the ionic calcium availability that is a key ingredient. There is a calcium dependent adhesion molecule (cadherins) that is very important in the embryonic development. It effects the ability of the embryo to initially adhere to the membrane of the inside of the egg as needed in chelonians. It also is a key determining factor in cellular migration and separation of tissue layers. These cadherin interactions will change dramatically in response to extracellular ionic calcium concentrations.

The separation of scute boundaries delineates in stage 17 of egg development with the ectoderm starting to differentiate in stage 16. With a sulcata with a average incubation of 86 days, that is day 29 and day 24 respectively.

Ionic calcium availability is greatly influenced by moisture availability, Ph of nesting area, chelators (humic substances) and there also is evidence that flouride inhibits ionic calcium. Heat, and in particular fluctuating heat causing moisture development in the nest, could be another important ingredient.

Hatch rates and initial development is effected immediately by these parameters in the nest. For scute formation, day 24-28 would seem key with a 90 day incubation. For an adalbra with a 110 day incubation it would be days 31-36. Overall hatchling size and bone development would be effected by these parameters especially in the later stages of development when calcium need and uptake would be the highest.

Anyone know someone looking for a masters or doctoral thesis study idea? Someone interested in chelonians in veterinary school could have a field day with the possibilities!!


----------



## Redfool (May 26, 2018)

Just got a Redfoot hatchling with 7 vertebral scutes in a zigzag pattern. Normal is 5 in-line. 6 eggs in this batch, this one and 5 normal. All hatched at 120 to 130 days at 85 degrees and 90% humidity. I usually get about 50 to 60 hatchlings per year from my 3 females. About 5 years ago I had one with a split scute but this is my first multi-zigzag scute pattern in about 18 years.


----------



## jjaymeza (May 27, 2018)

Redfool said:


> Just got a Redfoot hatchling with 7 vertebral scutes in a zigzag pattern. Normal is 5 in-line. 6 eggs in this batch, this one and 5 normal. All hatched at 120 to 130 days at 85 degrees and 90% humidity. I usually get about 50 to 60 hatchlings per year from my 3 females. About 5 years ago I had one with a split scute but this is my first multi-zigzag scute pattern in about 18 years.
> View attachment 239936



Wow that looks amazing! I would love a multi scute tortoise like that. [emoji847]


----------



## teresaf (May 28, 2018)

My multishute tortoise with zigzag....


----------



## Redfool (May 28, 2018)

teresaf said:


> My multishute tortoise with zigzag....
> View attachment 240072



Nice,looks like she’s made of stone.


----------



## Dianne iin South Florida (Jun 15, 2018)

A perfect place for me to climb on my high horse (and I really have one) I am a dog trainer for obedience and I used to show too. I love training it's so rewarding, I am not a dog breeder. Why am I not a dog breeder because even as you can imagine how much dog knowledge I must have with my training and showing background? Answer: I still do not feel that I am in the position to breed dogs. This is why, I think all creatures that are bred by man should be bred by professionals prepared for anything that may happen. Iv'e witnessed a professional horse breeder with a mare trying to foal. The baby was stuck. Why because there were 2 of them. In horses, if the foal is an albino it is almost always delivered stillborn and the mare will need help from a human. ( who must be there or the mare could die) this time it was twins! Also, another oddity in horses so we had 2 stillborn foals trying to be delivered. After a professional did all they knew they could do, then they called the vet out. Yes, the mother was saved. That was with a professional breeder. Imagine if she did not know any of what to do and why its happening and that the mare needed help at all? Just wanted to have a foal for no particular reason. Not safe. I also don't believe in breeding a backyard dog for the sole purpose of 1, the dog needs to have puppies once, WRONG, or they needed money WRONG people told them they wanted a puppy from your dog because they wanted a puppy from that particular dog, purebred or not. More dogs end up homeless if they live. Dog breeders only breed the best of the breed, show champions, to produce more perfect standards for the breed. Or trying to improve the breed. Pretty much that's how I feel about amateurs breeding anything. Leave the breeding to the professional breeders. I'm sorry if I have offended any backyard breeders but this is my experience and my feelings only, I am not trying to lecture anyone or put anyone down for breeding a creature. I just pray for them they have no complications before or after birth/hatching. 
You can imagine the happiness I got when I had the wildlife person pick up the two Gophers I found as babies to go into the repopulation program. Gophers are on the endangered list. I experienced so much self-satisfaction knowing I helped in a small way by being honest and doing the right thing with these torts. Again my breeding story was not meant to hurt anyone it's just my opinion.


----------



## TechnoCheese (Jun 15, 2018)

Dianne iin South Florida said:


> A perfect place for me to climb on my high horse (and I really have one) I am a dog trainer for obedience and I used to show too. I love training it's so rewarding, I am not a dog breeder. Why am I not a dog breeder because even as you can imagine how much dog knowledge I must have with my training and showing background? Answer: I still do not feel that I am in the position to breed dogs. This is why, I think all creatures that are bred by man should be bred by professionals prepared for anything that may happen. Iv'e witnessed a professional horse breeder with a mare trying to foal. The baby was stuck. Why because there were 2 of them. In horses, if the foal is an albino it is almost always delivered stillborn and the mare will need help from a human. ( who must be there or the mare could die) this time it was twins! Also, another oddity in horses so we had 2 stillborn foals trying to be delivered. After a professional did all they knew they could do, then they called the vet out. Yes, the mother was saved. That was with a professional breeder. Imagine if she did not know any of what to do and why its happening and that the mare needed help at all? Just wanted to have a foal for no particular reason. Not safe. I also don't believe in breeding a backyard dog for the sole purpose of 1, the dog needs to have puppies once, WRONG, or they needed money WRONG people told them they wanted a puppy from your dog because they wanted a puppy from that particular dog, purebred or not. More dogs end up homeless if they live. Dog breeders only breed the best of the breed, show champions, to produce more perfect standards for the breed. Or trying to improve the breed. Pretty much that's how I feel about amateurs breeding anything. Leave the breeding to the professional breeders. I'm sorry if I have offended any backyard breeders but this is my experience and my feelings only, I am not trying to lecture anyone or put anyone down for breeding a creature. I just pray for them they have no complications before or after birth/hatching.
> You can imagine the happiness I got when I had the wildlife person pick up the two Gophers I found as babies to go into the repopulation program. Gophers are on the endangered list. I experienced so much self-satisfaction knowing I helped in a small way by being honest and doing the right thing with these torts. Again my breeding story was not meant to hurt anyone it's just my opinion.



I agree, but am I missing something? Was something related to this brought up in this thread? Sorry if I’m just blind lol


----------



## Dianne iin South Florida (Jun 15, 2018)

there was a mention or more about breeding. That sets me going.


----------



## Redfool (Jun 15, 2018)

First of all I want to express my disclaimer as speaking only for myself and I hold no animosity towards any poster or their opinion. I know horse and dog breeders have a much much larger investment to protect in raising their pets. As for myself, I think the term “breeder” is kind of a vague application to many amateurs such as myself. The torts kind of handle the breeding themselves just at a smaller scale than nature. I’m not cross breeding to get “designer” colors like some snake and lizard breeders. Female torts lay eggs whether fertile or not. I just dig up egg nests and incubate them before the raccoons get to them. The females are documented as to how many and when eggs are laid to be sure of no egg binding (never has happened to me) and to date the eggs for incubation time. I usually raise 40 to 50 hatchlings per year and have had only 1 with zigzag scutes in the last 5 years all incubated in the same 2 incubators. Can’t believe it’s a temp thing and not just genetics.


----------

