# South African Leopard and hibernation



## mikeh

Does anyone hibernate their GPP?

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## Baoh

No, but I have been intrigued by the possibility. Of several types of tortoises, actually.


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## FLINTUS

I had to comment on this as we have been discussing this on another forum.
Firstly, I do believe there are a few keepers in the US that hibernate S.African leopards during winter.
Logically, it would make sense-well most S.African tortoises do truly hibernate anually, not just slow down.
But does it provide any health benefits? With any tortoises from the genus testudo, it definitely does, but the question is for GPP, the mountainous ranges of the red foots, the majority of the hingebacks etc-any southern hemisphere tortoise really- is it something done on purpose, or is it an adaptation they may or may not do depending on the environment that year?
I have thought of trying a kind of slow down for my reds and hinges this winter, but then quickly said to myself, not a good idea as there is not enough info on it.


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## nate.mann

I was thinking about this earlier today, but due to how unhealthy the leopard im rescuing tomorrow is, theres no way. I don't think I will for a few years (if he/she makes it that long), and I will then decide whether or not I should.


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## cdmay

I don't know if I would. For me the big questions would be "Do I know for sure that the animal is a G.p.p. and if so, from a population that experiences prolonged cold?" and then, "is hibernation something it_ needs to do_--or something it can simply _survive_?"


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## yagyujubei

Though most will say it is not so, I have talked with people in SA who believe it is, especially in areas that get snow. Ed Pirog has strong ideas about this. I think it should be attempted by only the most experienced keepers, though.


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## Neal

A lot of good points brought up already. Just by way of opinion I would not do it for the reasons cdmay brought up. 

Like Dennis said, if you want some information from someone who has hibernated leopards, talk to Ed Pirog.

I had one little male for about 5 years. He was an exteemely active and healthy tortoise, but every fall he would almost completely shut down. He would eat very little for a couple of months and wouldnt move around as much as the others.


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## mikeh

Could the fact that GPP hibernates in nature be one of the factors how they grow? Putting pyramiding aside, from hundreds of pictures I have looked at of sub adults, adults, even juveniles, in every picture I see noticeable differences between wild and captive raised torts. 

For one, bodies of captive raised tortoises seem much larger/thicker for their shell when compared to wild tortoises, and vice versa in wild tortoises the head and limbs appear almost small/tiny for their shell when compared to captive raised counterparts.

Two, the shell of all wild torts has a nice domed/round shape as to much flatter shape in captives. 

Three, much more marginal flaring is seen in captives. In fact I yet have to see one picture of captive raised sub adult or adult that is not flared. In most photos of wild GPP I see very little to some flaring.

Four, in captives the walls of the shell appears thicker on sub adults and adults, while in wild shell appears thinner. 

Could lack of hibernation in captives and their metabolism running wide open 365/year be ONE for the factors causing these physical differences. 

It also makes me wonder on long term health effects, 30-40 years down the road, if in fact they are truly hibernating subspieces.




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## Tom

I lived in SA for four months and had the opportunity to see a lot of wild tortoises and talk to a lot of locals. One of our crew lived in the mountains in SA in a pretty remote area. He said he had lots of wild leopards around him and they most certainly did hibernate in winter as it frequently snows there. He told me that they do not hibernate in other parts of the range where it does not get so cold.

I saw some wild ones on the coast down at the Cape Preserve Lighthouse tourist area. It was sunny, 50-55 degrees with 30-40 mph winds and those tortoises were running around like nothing was wrong. There were just truckin' along and going about their business like any other day. The tortoises down there were very dark and very distinct looking, and they don't look like the SA leopards we have here. I suspect the SA leopards we have here, like the ones that Torts R us recently posted pics of, and the adults that so many of our forum member's Gpp came out of, are from the North of SA. Maybe Joberg or Pretoria. I don't have any verification of their exact origin one way or the other, but they look decidedly different to me.

I would not attempt to hibernate any leopard unless you are 100% certain exactly where in the range they came from. SA is a huge place and the climates and conditions vary just as much as they do here in the US. Consider Phoenix compared to Denver, or Miami vs. San Francisco.

I have never noticed the flaring you keep talking about, but now I'm going to start paying attention to it. I will also go back and review the pics of WCs that I have. My Gpp supplier also has three locality specific Gpb groups and he pointed out the carapace flaring and degree of serration on the flares as one of the distinguishing features to me.

There is no doubt that captive raised tortoises look different than wild tortoises of the same species. This is true for all of them, not just leopards. When looking at leopards keep in mind the age of the animals you are looking at. Most of the captive animals you see pics of are fairly young animals while most of the WC one you see pics of are decades old.


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## diamondbp

Strangely enough the adult sulcatas I have we're keep outside year round for 8 years before I adopted them. Although I live in Louisiana I know for a fact that they were outside while it snowed and that was when they were only 5inches in length. 
Of course now that I have them they have a heated shed with a giant heated pig mat that they rest on during the winter, but it's still shocking that they spent so many winters without any heat source. 
Although the winters down here don't get incredibly cold, they are incredibly humid winters which is still dangerous. They both developed normally and produce hatchlings together.

Just thought I would share that.


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## Yashil Ghazi

Hi

I live in South Africa, and we have just come out of a long and cold winter. 

Like Tom said, it depends were your tort comes from .I live in the warmest part of South Africa (durban) and I can say that leopards here most definitely do not hibernate. Its never snown here , and is always humid . I believe that the tortoises that have been imported to the US , were probably taken from either Cape Town , or Durban , as it seems strange that people would have brought leopards down all the way from Joburg as they occur around here aswell. Joburg leopards are well known to dissapear for a week or two (in winter ) , and just sleep , but the people who I have spoken to have said that they rarely sleep for more than 3 weeks. This is because not all winter days are cold here. Some can be extremely hot , and so it would be expected that tortoise would wake up and cruse around. However, one thing that is for sure is that all tortoises , wild and domestic , become a lot less active .right aromd now (spring) they become very active 


I hope ive been helpful in some way. Please don't hesitate to ask me for any info on South African climate.

Ps .I have a yearling GPP.

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## diamondbp

Thanks Yashil....definitely great info


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## cdmay

Tom said:


> I lived in SA for four months and had the opportunity to see a lot of wild tortoises and talk to a lot of locals. One of our crew lived in the mountains in SA in a pretty remote area. He said he had lots of wild leopards around him and they most certainly did hibernate in winter as it frequently snows there. He told me that they do not hibernate in other parts of the range where it does not get so cold.
> 
> I saw some wild ones on the coast down at the Cape Preserve Lighthouse tourist area. It was sunny, 50-55 degrees with 30-40 mph winds and those tortoises were running around like nothing was wrong. There were just truckin' along and going about their business like any other day. The tortoises down there were very dark and very distinct looking, and they don't look like the SA leopards we have here. I suspect the SA leopards we have here, like the ones that Torts R us recently posted pics of, and the adults that so many of our forum member's Gpp came out of, are from the North of SA. Maybe Joberg or Pretoria. I don't have any verification of their exact origin one way or the other, but they look decidedly different to me.
> 
> I would not attempt to hibernate any leopard unless you are 100% certain exactly where in the range they came from. SA is a huge place and the climates and conditions vary just as much as they do here in the US. Consider Phoenix compared to Denver, or Miami vs. San Francisco.
> 
> I have never noticed the flaring you keep talking about, but now I'm going to start paying attention to it. I will also go back and review the pics of WCs that I have. My Gpp supplier also has three locality specific Gpb groups and he pointed out the carapace flaring and degree of serration on the flares as one of the distinguishing features to me.
> 
> There is no doubt that captive raised tortoises look different than wild tortoises of the same species. This is true for all of them, not just leopards. When looking at leopards keep in mind the age of the animals you are looking at. Most of the captive animals you see pics of are fairly young animals while most of the WC one you see pics of are decades old.



It does seem to be the case that some populations of leopard tortoises in S.A. are decidedly darker than others. A friend of mine traveled all over the region a few years ago and of course photographed many of the leopards. I was surprised at how variable they were. But I think the darker animals tended to be from more mountainous areas. Maybe the darker coloration is an adaptation to warming up quicker as it is with many snakes?
Tom, please post some W/C photos!

Yashil--thanks for the info.Post photos too!


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## Yashil Ghazi

Hey

Yes , some leopards here are very dark when they get old, and have almost no patterns. Those ones are almost always from the higher up areas and are actually called Mountain tortoises by locals , but are pretty much leopards.The leopards down here have their leopard like patterns and colours. 

Ive added a pic of my tortoises that I took this morning. He spends the day outside in his pen , and inside , because of the numerouse predators that lurk in the dark here.ive also added a pic of my tortoises enclosure , just for interest sake.

This time of year , winter is ending, and its getting hot. I would also like to back up Toms belief of leopards needing humidity. In durban/capetown /and pretty much anywhere coastal in South Africa, its very humid. The only time it will ever become dry is in winter . Right now its actually so warm , you can prettymuch sleep outside naked 



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## Tom

cdmay said:


> It does seem to be the case that some populations of leopard tortoises in S.A. are decidedly darker than others. A friend of mine traveled all over the region a few years ago and of course photographed many of the leopards. I was surprised at how variable they were. But I think the darker animals tended to be from more mountainous areas. Maybe the darker coloration is an adaptation to warming up quicker as it is with many snakes?
> Tom, please post some W/C photos!



The dark ones I saw were right on the coast. Literally a stones throw from the cliff edges that would drop you into the water where the Indian and Atlantic Oceans meet.

Fun Fact: You can actually see a line in the water where the two oceans meet and it extends all the way to the horizon. The colliding currents and mixing temps and salinities cause a turbulence that can be easily seen on the surface.


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## Neal

Good info all around. 

There is a South African herp. forum that has a few active tortoise owners. A couple of them have said that their tortoises hibernate.


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## Tom

Yashil Ghazi said:


> Hey
> 
> Yes , some leopards here are very dark when they get old, and have almost no patterns. Those ones are almost always from the higher up areas and are actually called Mountain tortoises by locals , but are pretty much leopards.The leopards down here have their leopard like patterns and colours.
> 
> Ive added a pic of my tortoises that I took this morning. He spends the day outside in his pen , and inside , because of the numerouse predators that lurk in the dark here.ive also added a pic of my tortoises enclosure , just for interest sake.
> 
> This time of year , winter is ending, and its getting hot. I would also like to back up Toms belief of leopards needing humidity. In durban/capetown /and pretty much anywhere coastal in South Africa, its very humid. The only time it will ever become dry is in winter . Right now its actually so warm , you can prettymuch sleep outside naked



Thank you for this valuable info Yashil. You have given me a piece of the puzzle that I have been missing for years. Sulcatas are hatched during the rainy season, so this is easy to understand and explain, but Heather (Team Gomberg) and I were discussing how to account for leopards needing so much humidity when they have such a huge range, tremendous variability in their sizes and appearances, and exploit so many different climates and habitats all over the continent. When they get cold and damp here in the states they tend to get sick. So your cold and dry explanation makes perfect sense. It also makes sense that since they aren't eating or growing much during the cold dry season, that they would not be pyramiding either. When its warm enough to eat and grow, its humid. Mystery solved, or at least better understood than it was before you posted. Thank you!

I had forgotten the term "mountain tortoise" until you said it again. One of my fellow trainers was named "Spud" and we called him "The Mountain Man" because of where he lived. He is the one who told me about the "mountain tortoises", the snow, and the hibernation. I cannot remember where he lived though. He told me, but this was back in 2005 and I can't remember any more.

I never made it up to Durban, but we got as far North as George. Stayed there for three weeks. Beautiful country. Looks like the Pacific Northwest there.

I was there from March until June, so I got to experience your fall. There were days that were extremely hot and humid in Capetown early in the trip, and other days that were rainy and near freezing in Summerset West (wine country) near the end of the trip. Fantastic country...


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## Team Gomberg

Yes, thank you for sharing Yashil


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## HerbsMommy

Leopards don't hibernate


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## mikeh

Thanks everyone for their insight. Its very interesting and much appreciated. The thought of hibernating will be put on back burner, for now.

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## Tom

HerbsMommy said:


> Leopards don't hibernate



Did you read the posts on this thread?


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

Thank you Yashil, for sharing such interesting and much needed information about our little leopards' home land. Very grateful! : )


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## Yashil Ghazi

Only a pleasure everyone
Im glad i could be helpful in some way.

I will make arrangments to go to a closeby game park. I hear that they have a large number of tortoises. When I go, I will be sure to take some photos and post them on TF to show what their landscape is like and what they look like.


May God bless all reptiles.


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## diamondbp

That would be awesome Yashil! I look forward to it


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## mikeh

Can't wait to see those Yashill!


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## Team Gomberg

*Re: RE: South African Leopard and hibernation*



Yashil Ghazi said:


> I will make arrangments to go to a close by game park. I hear that they have a large number of tortoises. When I go, I will be sure to take some photos and post them on TF to show what their landscape is like and what they look like



I'd be very interested in using some of your information. Looking forward to seeing/ reading about what you find!

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## Yashil Ghazi

Ive spoken to one of my friends from school today.he says his mum and dad will be able to take us along to the KZN iTaala game reserve. They apparently also have an area with a large collection of torts that they have found in the reserve.( just incase we dont see some in the reserve ) aswell as a large population of wild ones in the reserve. 

IL be going in two weeks (im in the middle of my trials exam ) but I will be sure to report back to TFO. 

I must say that I am not an expert on leopard torts , as I am simply a rookie owner who is looking to learn more about my beautiful pet .

Ive added some pics of the lions that they have in this park (taken by my friend just recently ) just to give you an idea of the type of landscape that we are talking about. 

May God bless all reptiles.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

Oh goodness. Oh goody. I cannot wait to hear about your trip! Yay! Thank you for thinking of us!


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## yagyujubei

I love the lions.


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## Team Gomberg

*Re: RE: South African Leopard and hibernation*



Yashil Ghazi said:


> I must say that I am not an expert on leopard torts ,



Dude, that's ok. You have something amazing to offer us..you live on location 

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## Tom

I don't know about you, but I'M really looking forward to your trip!!!

Thanks so much for sharing this with us.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

The lions are majestic. Just a gentle reminder Yashil. Personal space. Give those lions personal space. I have seen pictures on the web of lion cubs playing football with a tucked in leopard tortoise. (The photographer had a note that all was well with the tortoise after the game he was forced in to). : )


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## mike taylor

*Re: RE: South African Leopard and hibernation*



Yashil Ghazi said:


> Ive spoken to one of my friends from school today.he says his mum and dad will be able to take us along to the KZN iTaala game reserve. They apparently also have an area with a large collection of torts that they have found in the reserve.( just incase we dont see some in the reserve ) aswell as a large population of wild ones in the reserve.
> 
> IL be going in two weeks (im in the middle of my trials exam ) but I will be sure to report back to TFO.
> 
> I must say that I am not an expert on leopard torts , as I am simply a rookie owner who is looking to learn more about my beautiful pet .
> 
> Ive added some pics of the lions that they have in this park (taken by my friend just recently ) just to give you an idea of the type of landscape that we are talking about.
> 
> May God bless all reptiles.



If you see hatchlings please post pictures of there habitat . So we can prove they live humid . And not dry and sandy. Good luck hope you get to see tortoise in the wild . I'm so jealous. 

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## mikeh

Yashill, 
If you could bring with you humidistat and thermostat and take some actual readings at their sites 

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## Yashil Ghazi

I will be sure to do that. I think that my school's geography department will have one of each. 

I will put whatever I find in a new thread ( sorry to completely change the subject of your thread )


May God bless all reptiles.


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## Tom

Yashil Ghazi said:


> ( sorry to completely change the subject of your thread )



Are you kidding? All of this totally relates to the original topic, AND everyone here wants to learn from every detail of the info you can give us.


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## Team Gomberg

Tom said:


> Yashil Ghazi said:
> 
> 
> 
> ( sorry to completely change the subject of your thread )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you kidding? All of this totally relates to the original topic, AND everyone here wants to learn from every detail of the info you can give us.
Click to expand...


Can I second this?!  

If you do create a new thread, please link to it in this thread so I don't miss it...


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## Yvonne G

HerbsMommy said:


> Leopards don't hibernate



I have had several babcocki for many years. When I first got into the species, I noticed that one of them sat in a cooler corner of the warm house (during the winter months) and didn't move. Thereafter, each winter, I would package that babcock up in shredded newspaper and put her in the hibernatorium. She's been doing this now for about 10 years with me. When I first joined this forum I used to say that some of the babcocks hibernate, and some don't. I really got shot down, even though I was speaking from experience. So I've just kept quiet about it.

I now have two pardalis pardalis with a hatchling on the way, and if they act like they want to hibernate, I will make arrangements for them to do so.


Just look at that land in the lion pictures. You can't even see dirt. This only goes to prove that the ground is probably pretty moist with all that cover over it. And the baby tortoises would be way down under all that dead grass, where it is moist and humid. And so much food for them to eat!


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## Neal

Yvonne G said:


> HerbsMommy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Leopards don't hibernate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have had several babcocki for many years. When I first got into the species, I noticed that one of them sat in a cooler corner of the warm house (during the winter months) and didn't move. Thereafter, each winter, I would package that babcock up in shredded newspaper and put her in the hibernatorium. She's been doing this now for about 10 years with me. When I first joined this forum I used to say that some of the babcocks hibernate, and some don't. I really got shot down, even though I was speaking from experience. So I've just kept quiet about it.
Click to expand...


I had a small male babcoci that behaved the same way as yours Yvonne. Every winter he would almost completely shut down for a couple of months. He would eat here and there and never had a runny nose or sign of illness so it didn't concern me too much. But comparing to how he behaves in warmer weather, it was a very noticeable change.


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## Torts"R"Us

Very interested thread! So anxious to see pictures .


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## Yashil Ghazi

My new thread is up. 

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-79807.html


May God bless all reptiles.


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