# Hormone Implant for male TGG with a one-track mind



## JoesMum (Jun 1, 2012)

Joe has had issues over the last few months with maintaining his weight. Tests for everything have proved negative... except testosterone. He's got plenty of that 

His one track mind means that he's thing so much about mating that he's not eating properly... and the constant pacing and escape attempts are just burning calories that should be being stored as body fat.

Joe's been back to our vet today (a highly experienced reptile vet in Kent)... and he's had a hormone implant put at the top of a back leg to reduce his testosterone levels. It will apparently take a couple of weeks to take effect properly, but in theory as levels drop he will go back to grazing and basking!

Right now, Joe is sulking under the basking lamp! 

My vet has asked me to give him regular updates on how Joe is doing... and I thought it might of interest to others to see Joe's progress over the coming weeks (Especially as I'm probably not the only one with an over-sexed male Testudo!), so I've started this thread and will add to it at least once a week!


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## wellington (Jun 1, 2012)

Interesting. However, I don't think he is over sexed. He just isn't able to do what comes natural. If he were in the wild, he would be mating, wondering for the next one, finding her and having to eat to get there and do what he went there for. We give them small areas, (no matter how large, doesn't really compare) and no mates to seek out. What size area does he have? I just wonder if a larger area would satisfy him enough or if it is just a phase they go through and if left alone, it would pass. Keep us updated, would live to know how it worked.


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## JoesMum (Jun 1, 2012)

Joe has around 300 square yards of garden to roam in, but no space is big enough this year. It is our entire garden and, short of moving house, he can have no more!

He has always roamed, but it has never been anything like this year. It's been near-manic constant pacing in all weathers. We've had him a long time, so we know what to expect! He rarely basks apart from a battery charge first thing in the morning and eats a few mouthfuls before resuming escape attempts. Our fences are 6' high and solid, he can't see through them and doesn't know what lies beyond!

If it weren't for the weight loss (nearly 2lb in 3 months), you wouldn't know there was anything wrong.

The vet has been threatening Joe with this for a while and today decided enough was enough... it's not something we've gone into lightly!


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## NudistApple (Jun 1, 2012)

Too much of a desire to mate really can be detrimental. Hormone implants (or shots) are becoming increasingly popular among the pet birds of the world.
Any form of "castration" (physical, chemical, temporary-implant) takes about 2-6 weeks to fully kick in.

Sometimes those little swimmers just don't want to back down! 

I bet he'll be feeling better inside of 2 months.


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## wellington (Jun 1, 2012)

JoesMum said:


> Joe has around 300 square yards of garden to roam in, but no space is big enough this year. It is our entire garden and, short of moving house, he can have no more!
> 
> He has always roamed, but it has never been anything like this year. It's been near-manic constant pacing in all weathers. We've had him a long time, so we know what to expect! He rarely basks apart from a battery charge first thing in the morning and eats a few mouthfuls before resuming escape attempts. Our fences are 6' high and solid, he can't see through them and doesn't know what lies beyond!
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong. I am not thinking anything about you doing it, except, I am interested in learning if it helps or not. I would be very concerned too. I am just saying, we can't give them the size of The wild, which has no fences. I am just saying he is wanting to do what comes natural. In the wild, he would be able to travel far and wide and mate as many times as he wanted. In captivity, what we think is crazy activity, is only natural activity, but heightened because they don't 
have the endless property line. Just a little note about weight loss. I don't know the exact %, but I would guess 100% that males of all or most animal species loose weight during the mating season. I really wouldn't worry as much about that as I would the stress of not being able to mate.


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## egyptian and proud "mayar" (Jun 1, 2012)

give him a beautiful pride and he will be grateful


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## dmmj (Jun 1, 2012)

Did the vet say if his hormone level were higher than usual for that species? did he compare it with other tests? Is there a baseline for testosterone levels?


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## Laurie (Jun 1, 2012)

Thanks for following up with this. I am always interested to read your "joe" stories. I think it's great you have had him so long. In fact, I love Joe! Poor horny guy  

I hope the therapy helps him realize there is more to life


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## Laura (Jun 1, 2012)

was getting him a few lady friends out of the question?


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## Englishrose (Jun 1, 2012)

Hey JM,

thanks for sharing, i have found your advice and comments on my threads very useful

This topic caught my eye because im beginning to think that this is what is the matter with Whistler, he shares a 7FTx3FT indoor house with doris and the outside is approx 7ftx7ft square which they go in when im doing the gardening, but roam around a very large back garden most of the time when they are out. This year he has a 1 track mind and constantly tries it on with doris, we are in the process of separating them because advice of here was to do so and she is likely to be less stressed and a higher chance of laying eggs. 

When they are roaming in the garden he warms up and then sets off on a mission, he has the same behaviour stomp around the perimeter for a chance to escape (he cant) or if he has lost sight of doris he goes on the rampage to seek her out and tries to bite her shell, legs or rams her. I was hoping they may do bromide for tortoises! 

i havent weighed them recently but he feels a bit lighter than she is, she is quite heavy. im also concerned he's burning up too much stores. I cant purchase another female for him to court, because they are difficult to come buy in canada.

I will be watching for your updates to see how Joe does.

Good Luck - kae


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## lynnedit (Jun 2, 2012)

Kae, that is interesting. There is a male tortoise who has had a chance to mate (several times, apparently), and is still rampaging around. Poor Doris, sounds like she does need a break. Who knows, maybe he also wants a good fight with a few males as well? 

My male Horsfield is in the same pickle, but in quarantine so can't mate. He has gone from 450gm to 400gm this Spring. He is barely eating anything. He has been to the vet (tube fed Panacur for + fecal and some liquid food/vits). I will take him back for a repeat, but I doubt our reptile vet has any knowledge of implants.

Joe has had a great life, and for at least the past 42 years. I suspect in the wild some males simply burn themselves out, and, unable to stoke up on the waning summer food supplies, may not survive hibernation. 
That works in the wild to cull the species, and because more females than males are needed to procreate, but it must not happen to Joe just because he is having a 'difficult' year.
No tortoise in captivity has a life that exactly mimics the wild, but as many have pointed out, with a good enclosure (a garden is great!), their lives are actually better and safer in many ways.
Glad you went for the implant, it sounds as if he will be much happier over the next month or two. At least I hope so!


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## DesertGrandma (Jun 4, 2012)

Thank you for posting the information on this. I will be interested in reading about it. Is the implant a permanent solution or just a temporary one?


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## JoesMum (Jun 4, 2012)

The implant lasts around 8 months which will take Joe to hibernation. He didn't hibernate last winter for the first time ever, so it will be interesting to see if he's behaving more normally next year.

The weather has turned WET in the UK at the moment. There's no discernible modification in Joe's behaviour indoors so far. He toasts under the basking lamp and goes outside to pace until he runs out of steam.


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## dmmj (Jun 4, 2012)

So we will have to see if no hibernation increased his testosterone levels.


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## JoesMum (Jun 13, 2012)

Well it's gone midnight in the UK and 12 days since the implant and it's time to update this thread.

Has Joe eaten and put on weight? 
Yes  Not a lot... about 100g (4oz), but at least his weight is going in the right direction at last. He lost nearly 25% of his body weight in 3 months.

Has his pacing improved?
Ummm... a bit... there are good days and bad days. The latter outnumber the former.

There is a reason, I'm not tucked up asleep at this hour and it's to do with noise.

Right now... I mean RIGHT NOW... the little sod dear is crashing round his table. It's cold outside... 8C (46F) and heavy rain is forecast for the morning, so I brought him in. He was very cold. He's crawled under the CHE and warmed up and now thinks it's time to go out.

It's pitch black in the room, I even closed the heavy curtains to cut out the street lights.

GO TO SLEEP JOE! YOU'RE WORSE THAN MY TEENAGERS </rant over>

Do I think the implant is helping?
I wouldn't like to say. The vet did say at least a fortnight. I hope it takes effect soon.


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## lynnedit (Jun 13, 2012)

Joe, Joe, Joe. What to do. A padded cell? A padded tortoise table?

My male Horsfield was wormed (based on a previous fecal which I was not going to treat since he had been doing OK, but now I was desperate), and given a tube feeding 2 weeks ago. I take him in tomorrow for the same.

I will weigh him tomorrow. He had not lost 25%, but perhaps 12% of his weight, but starting from a smaller size.
He is alert, still soaking him every 2-3 days. If outside, he is very active. But he will only eat some radicchio, no matter what else I blend in chopped or layered.

What will we do with these boys?


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## jacquiroell (Jun 13, 2012)

Poor Joe - and you! :-}
Can you see the implant? you said he put it in through his leg? What the heck is it? Hopefully it works!!


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## JoesMum (Jul 16, 2012)

Time for an update. Joe's just had his 6 week check up and is doing well.

He still hasn't put a great deal of weight on, but he is eating... and eating quite a lot. 
He is still very active, but it is not the mindless pacing and butting everything in sight.
At the vet, he objected to being there (traditional), but didn't butt anything at all much to the surprise of the nurses who'd been passing comments about putting their shin pads on! 

He still butts stuff in the garden, but not constantly.

The British weather can only be described as :censored: which isn't ideal, but the installation of a kennel and heatlamp with timer have made a huge difference as I don't have to bring him in to warm up now. With insulation the ambient in the kennel is around 27C (81F)







I leave a mound of food outside and he goes and finds it when he's toasty and then shuffles off to see if there are any more windfall cherries from my neighbour's tree.

I'll get his blood test results early next week and we'll find out how much of a drop there's been in his testosterone levels.


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## wellington (Jul 16, 2012)

Sounds like he is doing good and probably happier. I like his house. Let us know what the blood results say.


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## clare n (Jul 16, 2012)

yes the house is lovely


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## JoesMum (Jul 16, 2012)

The kennel wasn't cheap (Â£75 from Amazon), but has been well worth it. 

We used carpet protector to line the floor (easy to wipe down) and lined it with with Aluminium Thermal Foil from B&Q. There's have a lamp stand in there with a paving slab to weigh it down. The slab heats up under the lamp which Joe loves.

Overall I guess we spent about Â£110 on it... we already had the lamp and stand.

If only it would stop raining... this is the worst British summer that I can ever remember!


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## wellington (Jul 16, 2012)

JoesMum said:


> The kennel wasn't cheap (Â£75 from Amazon), but has been well worth it.
> 
> We used carpet protector to line the floor (easy to wipe down) and lined it with with Aluminium Thermal Foil from B&Q. There's have a lamp stand in there with a paving slab to weigh it down. The slab heats up under the lamp which Joe loves.
> 
> ...



Send that rain to the US. Most of us are in need, big need of rain. With temps at 90+even into the 100's more then ever, and in places that normally don't get that high, and high humidities, we are desperate for rain. I'll blow some of our temps your way, you do the same with the rain. I wish it could be that easy.


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## JoesMum (Jul 16, 2012)

We were in big need of rain only in March. My part of the UK hadn't had substantial rain for 18 months. The reservoirs and underground water supplies were empty and we were banned from using hose pipes.

Then we had the wettest April on record followed by a pretty wet May and then the wettest June on record and what looks like being the wettest July on record. Any more and we'll be needing an ark. 

The good news is that we are finally allowed to use hose pipes again, even in the South East!




jacquiroell said:


> Poor Joe - and you! :-}
> Can you see the implant? you said he put it in through his leg? What the heck is it? Hopefully it works!!


You can't see the implant; it's tiny, and is slipped under the skin at the top of one of his hind legs.

It works by flooding his system, apparently, so initially he was worse. It took 3 weeks for any noticeable effect. 

On days 22 and 23 we actually had proper sunshine and I was working in the garden. The lawnmower came in for its usual tortoise-abuse, he really does loathe it, as did the drain cover which is more of a sex toy for Joe. Joe got in my way, but my ankles stayed in tact.

I'm pleased to say that he hasn't lost his personality with the implant


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## Laurie (Jul 16, 2012)

Welcome back!! I'm glad to hear Joe is doing ok, I was thinking about him the other day. Thats a great looking "house" you have set up for him there.


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## lynnedit (Jul 16, 2012)

I have been wondering how Joe was doing! I like his hut. 
So glad he is at least eating again, and not quite as restless.
Sounds like the implant may have helped.


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## JoesMum (Aug 15, 2012)

After a busy fortnight watching the Olympics (we saw many amazing events live), I can now report back on Joe's progress.

He's put on 500g (about 1Â¼ lb) since he had the implant done in June. He's now eating food that I put out that's roughly twice the volume of his shell. From studying his poo, there's a lot of grazing going on... plenty of grass in it! A horse would be proud of the volumes 

His Testosterone level pre-implant was 59.5 and is now 0.3. A 'normal' breeding high for TGG is thought to be 35-45 with it dropping to around 5 out of season. 

The constant, aimless pacing has stopped, but I'm pleased to say his behaviour is still Joe 

He managed to capsize during a mountaineering expedition last week... the first time for a couple of years. He still attacks the lawn mower, but is more easily distracted by food. He's given up on the wheelie bin for butting, but the drain cover still gets it!

I was delighted to see him getting distracted by a dandelion flower on his way over to investigate what I was up to in the garden last week.

The kennel has made a huge difference. I make sure he's in it at my bed time (any earlier and he goes walk about) and he gets a couple of hours toasting under the lamp first thing in the morning as the kennel lamp is on a timer. He eats what I put out as soon as he's up and then the garden is his for the rest of the day with him using his favourite sun spots and his cold frame for basking.

I was late feeding him this morning and found him sat outside the kitchen glaring at the door! 

I am sure we will be able to hibernate him this winter... which will be a relief to Joe as well, no doubt.


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## wellington (Aug 15, 2012)

Glad it has helped. He sounds hilarious. You must just have a good time watching him with all his antics


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## Laurie (Aug 15, 2012)

Glad to hear Joe is well!


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## lynnedit (Aug 15, 2012)

Good to hear! That testosterone is bad news...
Joe sounds like a real card.


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## DesertGrandma (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks for filling us in. And so glad to know that it worked.


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