# reptile calcium



## leopard777 (May 22, 2012)

i just bought reptile calcium, question is this the same as calcium carbonate sold in super market?


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## Yvonne G (May 22, 2012)

Hi leopard777:

Welcome to the Tortoise Forum!!

If the ingredients listed on the package say calcium carbonate, then, yes, it is the same. But there are different kinds of calcium. Other types of calcium include calcium gluceptate, oral calcium gluconate, calcium lactate, and calcium phosphate.

Calcium salt, in conjunction with some other substance (carbonate or gluconate, for example), is what provides the calcium. Not all calcium salts contain the same amount of elemental calcium. Elemental calcium is the amount of calcium actually absorbed by the body, for example there is more elemental calcium in calcium carbonate than in calcium gluconate. Make sure the label of the calcium product you choose lists the amount of elemental calcium, as well as the total calcium. If the phrase "elemental calcium" is not listed, find another calcium supplement.

Bear in mind that most tortoises don't like the taste of calcium powder, so apply it sparingly.

What would you like us to call you? and may we know appx. where in the world you are?


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## dmarcus (May 22, 2012)

Hello and welcome to the forum..


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## Tom (May 22, 2012)

Hello and welcome.

In this case, I buy the stuff made and marketed for reptiles.


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## leopard777 (May 22, 2012)

i guess i will stick to pet's shop reptile calcium then , how much you guys dose for leopard tortoise ?


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## Tom (May 22, 2012)

Depends on how old, how big, the diet, hydration and the sex.

For an adult male, I would give them a good diet, but not calcium supplement at all.

For an adult female I would sprinkle some on the food three times a week during the months before and during the times I would expect them to lay eggs.

For a growing baby or juvenile, I would sprinkle a little on the food two or three times a week.


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## Madkins007 (May 22, 2012)

If you would prefer, you can use human food-grade calcium carbonate and be OK. Stuff like this- http://www.google.com/products/cata...SCS8T6PKA8K02gXt14WADw&sqi=2&ved=0CJgBEPICMAI

Its the same thing they package for reptiles, but usually a lot cheaper. Note that it DOES NOT have vitamin D3 in it.


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## Jacob (May 22, 2012)

Some use it once a week.
Others 2-3 times weekly.


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## Paradon (May 23, 2012)

You can supplement their diet with Mazuri, Agrob and Repashy Superveggie so you don't need to supplement with calcium... they are design to round out and boost the nutrition of the limited captive diet. If you supplement with calcium carbonate, yoiu need to figure out how much Calcium and phosphorous their is in each veggie in dry matter basis so you know how much calcium to add to offset the ratio of calcium to phosphorous which should be around 2:1... to much calcium and not enough phosphorous can lead to calcification and mineralisation of the soft tissue. Add plus you want to give them a well balanced diet which all of those three provide, but without them it is hard to recreate with the average persons. Even for cats and dogs, it is difficult to feed them well balanced meals, trying to replicate what they eat in the wild. that's why they create dog and cat food; even the good brand (for example, Stella&Chewy) contains some added vitamins and other stuff to make it complete. I'd definitely by those three products to add to your tort diet. Regular vitamins and calcium supplement can be quite dangerous if you get the dosage wrong.


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## Madkins007 (May 23, 2012)

I certainly agree that misdosing of supplements is a real risk, but calcium is one of the more benign things to work with. The recommended doses, according to Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery, is 1.3mg to 8mg per Calorie of food, with overdosing risks requiring something like 5 times that level. (There is a dosage chart based on the animal's weight at https://sites.google.com/site/tortoiselibrary/nutrition/guidelines-and-dosages )

Overdoses of calcium are not easy to accomplish- most grocery store foods are high in phosphorous, and most excess calcium will be excreted. 'Indoor' tortoises are a far higher risk of too little calcium in the diet and various metabolic bone diseases that accompany it. 

However, it IS a risk- which is why the typical advice seen here is to offer very small amounts once in a while.

I am curious about the idea of using pelleted foods as a supplement, however. I agree that prepared foods can help balance and round out a diet, but to use them as the calcium and vitamin supplement does not sound quite right- the foods mentioned have calcium and other nutrient levels so they are balanced within themselves- there is no excess calcium, etc. in them. So... if I have a meal that has a poor balance of, say, calcium and phosphorous, adding a balanced prepared food is not going to correct that shortage. 

You mentioned cat and dog foods. Let's instead use people as the example. The goal for humans is to eat a good diet and not need supplements- but even then, some experts suggest a multivitamin once in a while as insurance, especially for those of us who try, but do not consistently hit the 'good food' target.

If I am eating 'real food' but pretty consistently missing out on calcium for some reason, then I am not really helping things much by eating a healthy and complete frozen meal. The calcium/phosphorous ratio in the frozen meal will be balanced within itself, but overall, I will still be short on calcium. Plus, I am now at risk of taking in too many calories overall since the frozen meal adds its own calorie count to my meal- which a vitamin supplement would not do.

A multi-vitamin and mineral tablet would not be as good of an answer as improving the diet would be, but it is more likely to address the deficiencies than frozen meal did.


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## Paradon (May 23, 2012)

Overdosing on calcium really depends on the ratio of calcium to phosphorous...not the amount. Your body can process and excrete the excess very efficiently if the ratio are ideal. The ideal range would be about 2:1, calcium get's process easily too by the body at 3:1. But if the calcium level is greater than that let's 3 (if I'm correct) then your body has difficulty excreting it and this cause minilisation and calcification of the soft tissue. To figure how calcium you need you need to figure how much calcium and phosphorous there is per grams of veggie on DMB. You can look at nutritional chart and see how much water content is in each veggies, weigh, and administer calcium accordingly. IF there's not enough calcium your it will bind with the phosphorous. By supplement it with complete food about several times a week in addition to what they are eating, they get all the nutrients they need and thus can get eat extra without any problem; it's like you eating complete meal and then eat something else; your body can get rid of the excess easier if it's from real food and not multivitamin... that's why eating a well balanced meal is prefer than taking vitamin and calcium supplement. I'm not sure how this work either in details, but it has worked for many people who are breeder hard to breed species. And yes the ideal way is to eat complete food and not take vitamin and calcium supplement because the risk of overdosing.


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## Madkins007 (May 23, 2012)

The total amount of calcium makes a difference- endive, for example, only has 23mg of calcium in a cup (25 grams), but has a Ca: P of almost 2:1 and about 8.6 calories. The recommended calcium dose is 1.3-8mg/Calorie, so the recommended levels should be between 10.4 on the low end and 68.8 on the high end with a median value of 39.6.

Mazuri is about 1.45% calcium and .6% phosphorous for a Ca: P of 2.4:1, but a cup of this is about 78.4g and has about 24 calories- so the calcium range should be 31.2 to 192mg. It contains about 1000mg of calcium and 470mg of phosphorous. 

And how did it get that high level of calcium? It added calcium carbonate to the mix- it is not from a natural source. Most of the vitamins and minerals in almost all processed dry chows is added as chemicals to the mix. (http://www.mazuri.com/product_pdfs/5M21-5E06.pdf )

Of course, a pinch of calcium carbonate is about 250mg of calcium, so adding it 1-3 times a week is not going to be a problem for most tortoises. 

Then, to complicate things a bit more, the levels of vitamin D play a HUGE role in this. The amount of calcium the cells can take is greatly influenced by the amount of vitamin D in the blood. The less D there is, the more unused calcium there is- and that is probably the biggest issue- amount of free calcium in the blood.

Anyway- as much as I really, truly enjoy discussions like this, I bet most of the others are going 'what the...?'.


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## Paradon (May 23, 2012)

Yes, I have read about this... too much calcium with a lot of vitamin D3 can cause soft-tissue calcification. And adding to much calcium, exceeding the ratio of 2:1 can also cause MBD. I think these diet added vitamins with how they interact with one another in mind. I'm not exactly sure, but when you add pure vitamins and calcium to the diet, you are bound to get it the wrong amount. You can figure it out I guess. But for the average person, like me, it is very difficult.


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## Paradon (May 24, 2012)

Calcium pills actually can cause heart attack in humans. People should take it with caution.


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## Madkins007 (May 24, 2012)

It really is not that hard. 

1. Soft-tissue calcification is a symptom of vitamin D intoxication due to over-supplementation of that vitamin. It is not listed in Mader's book as a complication of calcium intoxication at all. (pp. 287, 477, 1069). To avoid, just be careful of how much vitamin D is offered, but remember that UVB light does not cause overdoses of vitamin D.

2. Calcium intoxication (overdose) in reptiles is rare enough that it only gets a couple paragraphs in Dr. Mader's massive Reptile Medicine and Surgery book (p.291), while calcium deficiencies gets a whole chapter and many, many pages elsewhere (pp 285-289, all of chapter 61, etc.). 

3. The Ca: P is not as critical as has been suggested either. The target goal, over time, is between 1:1 and 2:1, but that is over time. A meal of 100:1 or 0.01:1 is not a big deal as long as it averages out over a week or so to around 1.5:1. In an earlier comment you suggested that above 3:1 was a problem, but tortoises routinely eat things MUCH higher than that in nature. Cactus fruit, turnip greens, hibiscus, and papaya are over 4:1; cactus pads and mulberry leaves are almost 10:1, and Collards are 14:1. Tortoises that eat mostly cacti and other high calcium foods in the wild or in captivity do not show signs of overcalcification.

Bottom line: Using 'chows' as a dietary supplement works, but may not be the optimal solution for many people. Offering small amounts of calcium and multi-vitamins with minerals once in a while accomplishes the same thing, at a lower price per serving, and without offering the added calories, fats, proteins, sugars, etc. that are found in chows.

If you are already using a chow as a part of the diet, however, there is almost certainly no need to offer additional supplementation.


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## Paradon (May 24, 2012)

This is a complex relation between food vitamins and minerals. You must get the dosage right. If you double the amount of calcium without raising the phosphorous to get the ideal ratio of about 2:1, it may not be absorb properly and the animal will suffer from metabolic bone disease. According to Allen Repashy 3:1 is also an acceptable ratio...

And it is true as you state... soft-tissue calcification is cause by vitamin D3 intoxication. It can happen if you supplement too much.

Calcium pills can cause heart attack in humans. You should use it with doctors' advice.


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