# Indoor room for my large torts



## lazybfarm (Nov 5, 2021)

So I am going to build an indoor room for wintering my 2 aldabras and 1 sulcata , for the long term. My idea is to take in an area 16' X 20' inside a corner in my shop, the exterior walls are concrete block , so my idea is to build 2 walls in the corner out of concrete block , to have a room that is 16x20, I plan on having 3 separate areas within this room, I can use concrete blocks for dividers between each tort and they can be moved around as needed. , I am in north alabama so the winters are not really bad but it does get cold I can usually let them go outside for a few hours each week even in winter. I plan on 8' ceiling height . Maybe some skylights for natural light/UV. I plan on insulating the walls with foam board and covering with plywood, the ceiling will be easy to insulate as I am going to just build it with 2x10 s. I think I will install a mini-split HVAC system to maintain air temps. I am also thinking about thermostatically controlled heat mats. My main question is what to do with the floor. It is a concrete floor . I was thinking about building the floor up with 2x6s and installing insulation in the cavities and installing plywood . Maybe under floor heating . How will this hold up to the big torts over time ? Can I just use cypress mulch over the plywood ? Tom, Mark84, what do you think about this plan? How would you do it if you wanted to do it once and do it right? Any ideas or advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks to everybody here for so much information and expertise!


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## Maro2Bear (Nov 5, 2021)

Greetings. Ambitious plan ?

Concrete is a heat sink….so, yes you will want something there above the concrete floor. I would look into these horse stall mats. You can lay these down as a barrier, then pile cypress mulch and other substrates on top. Kane heat mats on top too (not covered by mulch). Problem with plywood is over time it will mold, mildew & soak up junk. The horse mats won’t & are meant for heavy use.

 https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/4-ft-x-6-ft-x-3-4-in-thick-rubber-stall-mat

Good luck!


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## lazybfarm (Nov 6, 2021)

Great idea about the horse stall mats ! I think that is the way to go . Maybe 2 layers of the mats with cypress mulch on top . A Kane heat mat for each tortoise . It would be easy enough to clean out too. Thanks! 
I knew you guys would have the answers ! 
I will have a tortoise barn at my new house, but I am thinking that I will keep them here during the winter. It is in my shop where I will be everyday , I can take care of them and let them go outside when it is nice . In the winter it usually dark when I leave my house in the morning and dark when I get home. So it would be hard to let them go outside during the warmest part of the day.


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## Markw84 (Nov 6, 2021)

@lazybfarm 

I like your plan. I am devising plans now as I am in the process of getting some acreage to make a tortoise preserve. So have been putting a lot of thought into this very subject for my own build.

I like the raised wood, insulated floor. I would treat the floor with a floor covering of some waterproof type and then lay horse stall mats. A single layer of the mats is plenty. They are 3/4" thick and made from the same material as tire rubber. Withstand the hooves, and shoes of horses - so easily hold up under giant tortoises. I use them in my Galapagos night house with absolutely no issue. I actually covered the horse mats with a 4" layer of orchid bark to improve humidity in the night box. You will need to contend with humidity as well as when we have to raise outdoor temperatures that much for our indoor temperature, the humidity ends up extremely low.

I would make the room into a complete enclosure. Meaning ambient lighting, heating, plus a night house inside the room. Room to bask and feed in the room, and then a night box to provide added night heat and humidity for sleeping. Good ambient lighting and basking zone for raising core body temps on cold days, and keeping the whole room at about 72°. Then have the night box kept at 84°. You could even let the room cycle from 75° daytime to 66° nighttime as the night box would provide night heat. Much less energy to heat a night box. Much less energy to keep the large room quite a bit cooler. Also provides a good photoperiod closer to 12/12 to keep better activity cycles, and still a nice dark "hide".

You might want to go as big as possible for the room. With heated night boxes for an adult Aldabra, you need something in the 4x6 range for each tortoise. 4x4 for a sulcata. So think about heating only that amount of area to 84° or so, then having the big room for daytime activities-basking, eating, ambient lighting, etc. I don't know if your group may grow as time goes by, but why not make it as big as possible now to accommodate possibilities? Much easier to make bigger now, than remodel later.


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## wellington (Nov 6, 2021)

Are they able to go outside every day?
A 16x20 is a little smaller then my 2 stall garage. That would not be big enough to house 3 large tortoises in 3 seperate enclosures and still have a decent amount of room to roam if there are days they would not be able to go out. You mention a few hours a week not a day. I would imagine that size for one large Aldabra to be housed over winter maybe 2.
@ALDABRAMAN hopefully will chime in.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 6, 2021)

I give three thumbs up to markw's advice!!


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## Tom (Nov 6, 2021)

@lazybfarm What size are the tortoises now, and how soon do you plan to move?

Brilliant suggestions from both Marks, but my concern is the size. 16x20 is too small for even medium members of either species, and that's if they had the whole thing. Divided by three, and this is just not enough space them to spend months of their time in.

@Markw84 and I have both been studying up on giant tortoise care, and touring zoos and facilities across the country. I've been very fortunate to meet some super cool people and see some amazing tortoises. One thing that has become apparent with the island giants is that they need room to roam. I suspect small enclosures, along with grocery store food diets, to be one of the main causes of problems with both Galops and Aldabras. Its not "scientifically proven", but its becoming pretty darn obvious. When I see a small flat pen, I see orthopedic problems with giant tortoises. When I see large pens with hills and obstacles in them, I see healthy giants. Due to their fossorial lifestyle, I can't say the same thing applies to sulcatas. I've seen them in relatively small areas, living primarily in their burrows, and they seem fine.

Its just not easy keeping tropical giants in a temperate climate.


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## Tom (Nov 6, 2021)

Yvonne G said:


> I give three thumbs up to markw's advice!!


HOLY COW! Did you find a severed thumb somewhere??? Last I counted you only had two!!!


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## lazybfarm (Nov 7, 2021)

Thanks everybody for the great advice ! I think I will go with 20 x 24 so I wont wish it was bigger in a couple of years, The idea to raise the floor and insulate, cover with plywood, seal, cover with horse stall mats, then cypress mulch , will work . I will heat the room with a mini split and heat the night boxes with RHP and kane mats. My new house has 4 acres with a 5' tall concrete block covered with stucco fence around the whole properety, this is the main reason we bought the house ! with about 2 acres dedicated for the torts.they will have a lot of room to roam. This land is not flat and will be great excercise for the big guys. Starting next spring, the aldabras [ which are @ 20lbs now] will be at the new house, they will have a tortoise barn with night boxes there, and will spend most of the year there. [ march thru november] This indoor room will be used for about 3 months a year, but , they will also go outside as much as possible during this time too. Our winters here in north alabama can be cold but there are many 65-70 degree days in the middle of winter so they can go out. I have found that even if the air temps are in the 60's, if the sun is shining the torts still get hot and search out some shade, Their shell temps can easily reach 100 degrees on a 60 degree day. Thanks again for all the knowledge that you guys have given us all , most of us could not have the success we do without you all !


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## Maggie3fan (Nov 7, 2021)

I am far from expert...however that never stops me from giving my opinion...This shed was outfitted for Sulcata...it's 20'x12 feet...heated with an oilfilled radiator type heater for ambien heat...basking bulbs and che for direct heat. There is a large sleeping box with a Stansfield pig blanket everything on timers or thermostats...It snows and ices here periodically...but evey morning I open a doggie door for the 1 Sulcata I have now...she's small 36 lbs I think... she was badly pyramided but still a h*llcat...lol


but why I'm commenting is the shed has a subfloor, then stuffed with insulation, then plywood. No substrate...so much easier to clean. I have also noticed thru the years in my experience the tortoises would rather poop outside then in...


I also tried to use stall mats...but my tortoises like to chew if you get the cheap ones like I did...make sure they are hard rubber...this is the sleeping box with pig blanket...Bob was 100+ lbs and he slept in it, and every other larger tort I'v had seems to really like it...


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## Markw84 (Nov 7, 2021)

@lazybfarm Sounds like you have a good plan. I was just out your way a month ago visiting my daughter who lives about 15-20 miles from you. Although you do get a few very cold nights, your weather should be OK for your plan. I can tell you that at least with Galapagos, and with sulcatas, they do quite well with a good heated house, and then access to graze even when temps are in the 40°s if it is sunny. Their house must be in the 80°s, and they do go into the house a lot during the day when it is cool and the sun gets blocked by clouds. I just now checked after reading your post, and this morning dropped to 42° and just did reach 49° outdoors 9:00AM. I had just opened the door to the Galap house 30 min ago. The shell of one of Galapagos out basking reads 98° right now. I've monitored this closely over the past 2 years and find they are very good at keeping warm and using the sun. It seems they are black for a reason! So as long as the sun is out, they do very well and actively graze most of the day. If it is cloudy, they come out for limited time, but spend most of the day in their house. Once over 10 lbs or so, they have enough thermal mass to graze for 30 min or so. But this is where I like to have their house set up with ambient lighting and basking lights for additional daytime heat. They do just fine grazing and cooling, but need to be able to get that body heat back up for the vast majority of the day and night.

Tortoise microbiome is composed of thousands of different bacteria that is essential for good digestion and some of that bacteria is very temperature sensitive. Allowing a tortoise to cool for too long and not be able to heat core temps to over 80° for a good part of every day will impact digestion and growth in younger tortoises. At temperature much below 80°, some of that bacteria will start to die off! That's where it seems many people make mistakes in keeping the large tortoises. They see how Aldabraman keeps his tortoises and will copy. Yet the base ground temps in S Florida is 77°. Your base ground temperature in N Alabama is 59°. My area is 64°. Chicago area is 47°. Even Phoenix is 60° even though most associate that with a high temperature. So without a heated house and then an insulated floor, there is a big issue with a tortoise keeping proper internal core temperatures to support metabolic activity. Outdoors, without the sun, the base ground temperature will greatly affect what a tortoise will experience as their body shape is designed to use the ground to moderate temperatures.

I will also qualify this by sating I have not directly worked with Aldabras. From talking extensively with folks who have worked with both Galaps and Aldabras, I consistently hear Galaps tend to be more active in using night boxes, shade and sun to control body temps. I surmise from the natural range in the Galapagos being much cooler than the Seychelles, the Galaps have evolved strategies to actively use the sun much more to raise body temps parts of the year where temps are much lower than the Seychelles every experience. So I'm sure you will watch the behaviors of yours and adjust accordingly. I constantly monitor my group of Galaps and if I find one that is not quite 10 lbs yet, and doesn't seem as good at getting back to the house or stays in shade or hiding consistently too long -and lets core body temps drop - I adjust and move indoors that winter. The normal thermoregulation response needs to kick in with size and overcome the hiding/security reflex of the young tortoise.

So long response to say I think you are on a great track and will have great tortoises. And *with that setup*, you will find they can do much better in cooler weather than you currently think.


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## lazybfarm (Nov 8, 2021)

lazybfarm said:


> Thanks everybody for the great advice ! I think I will go with 20 x 24 so I wont wish it was bigger in a couple of years, The idea to raise the floor and insulate, cover with plywood, seal, cover with horse stall mats, then cypress mulch , will work . I will heat the room with a mini split and heat the night boxes with RHP and kane mats. My new house has 4 acres with a 5' tall concrete block covered with stucco fence around the whole properety, this is the main reason we bought the house ! with about 2 acres dedicated for the torts.they will have a lot of room to roam. This land is not flat and will be great excercise for the big guys. Starting next spring, the aldabras [ which are @ 20lbs now] will be at the new house, they will have a tortoise barn with night boxes there, and will spend most of the year there. [ march thru november] This indoor room will be used for about 3 months a year, but , they will also go outside as much as possible during this time too. Our winters here in north alabama can be cold but there are many 65-70 degree days in the middle of winter so they can go out. I have found that even if the air temps are in the 60's, if the sun is shining the torts still get hot and search out some shade, Their shell temps can easily reach 100 degrees on a 60 degree day. Thanks again for all the knowledge that you guys have given us all , most of us could not have the success we do without you all !


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## lazybfarm (Nov 8, 2021)

met the block guy today, the walls will be laid this weekend ! Nothing like getting on with it ! I will post some pics when we get started


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## lazybfarm (Nov 9, 2021)

I think I will also attach some of the horse stall mats on the wall , the mats are 4 ' wide , so Im thinking about putting them up 4' high all around. I am also thinking about using Flex Seal to seal the plywood, Also what do you guys think about using treated wood in the floor, covered by plywood then sealed with flex seal, covered by horse stall mats , so the tortoises would never come in contact with it, What color should the inside of the room be?
Dark or light color ? I was thinking about white . Do the tortoises care , or need a certain ambiance ?


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## lazybfarm (Nov 9, 2021)

Thanks Mark , I really do appreciate your help and advice .


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## lazybfarm (Nov 12, 2021)

I have decided to make my new tortoise room a sealed enclosure. It will only have 1 opening , a 44" wide commercial steel door. I plan on building the floor up with treated 2x6's on 16" centers, then I will put down styrofoam board insulation on the concrete, then fill the cavity with fiberglass insulation. Then I will cover the floor with 3/4" plywood This should prevent any heat loss through the floor. I am going to fill the new concrete block walls with bead insulation. The exterior block walls will have 2x4 strips installed and foam board [ maybe spray foam depending on the cost ] installed between the 2x4's , then 3/4" plywood over the exterior walls. Now that it is all sealed, I am going to paint he inside ,floor ceiling ,walls with white flex seal. I will then cover the floor and up 2' on the walls with a heavy duty pond liner. Then I will cover the floor and 4' up on the walls with heavy rubber horse stall mats. I can then cover the floor with cypress mulch and it can be cleaned out like cleaning a horse stall, I can then keep the substrate damp by spraying it down , or spray off the tortoises any where in the enclosure. I plan on using some LED grow lights to grow plants for them in the room in pots . I will need some kind of UVB light . Does the grow lights produce any UVB? I would need a strong light to be mounted on the 8" ceiling. Maybe put in a UVB light in their night boxes ? My idea for heat is to use a mini split system , or maybe some kind of greenhouse heater ? not sure yet , any ideas on heat would be great. Keep in mind that does not get brutally cold here, mostly 50's during the day in winter for highs, sometimes its 70 and sometimes its 25 for highs , but this would be only for 1-2 days either way on the extremes. So the ceiling will have an exhaust fan to pull in some fresh air when needed, maybe on a timer to change some of the air out a couple of times a day . Each tortoise will have their own area in this room using retaining wall blocks for walls so that can be moved adjusted as needed. Within each area will be a heated night house with RHP and kane mat. 
So those are my thoughts this morning on how I want to do it, If any body has any suggestions or advice , please feel free to chime in. The block guy is coming saturday to start on the walls.


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## lazybfarm (Nov 12, 2021)

My idea for the mini split is that I could also use it to cool off the room if was getting too hot , but maybe just install a thermostat control for the exhaust fan to come on when it gets above 90 or so.


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## TeamZissou (Nov 12, 2021)

lazybfarm said:


> I plan on using some LED grow lights to grow plants for them in the room in pots . I will need some kind of UVB light . Does the grow lights produce any UVB? I would need a strong light to be mounted on the 8" ceiling. Maybe put in a UVB light in their night boxes ?



Typical grow lights generally do not produce UV. UV producing LEDs are relatively new and expensive; I believe Mark has been testing some recently. You'd probably need the most powerful Arcadia T5 bulbs and likely need to hang them much lower than the 8 ft ceiling so that you generate an adequate UVI at the tortoise level. That said, if they will live outside for most of the year, UV may not be necessary at all. 

Will a full grown Aldabra fit through a 44" door? Some of the enclosures I see by Aldabraman look to have a mini garage door that is considerably wider.


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## lazybfarm (Nov 12, 2021)

Here is a pic of the inside of my shop. The new room is going to be in the back left corner . The room where their enclosures are now is at the back right corner, you can zoom in and see where I added it to the existing office area . I use a large cart to take them outside


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## lazybfarm (Nov 12, 2021)

Here is the pic


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## lazybfarm (Nov 12, 2021)

So I just met with some of my contractor buddies [ I am an electrical contractor ] about my new room . They are going to build the floor and ceiling framing for me next week . I think I am going a little bigger still . I am going to go with 28 X 20 , with a 48" door . I hope this goes as planned, maybe have this room ready for the torts in a few weeks !


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## jsheffield (Nov 12, 2021)

Following this with interest as I'm in the process of slowly retrofitting a portion of our garage into a tortoise room, with room for a bigger enclosure for my MEP.

Jamie


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## lazybfarm (Nov 12, 2021)

Ready for the block


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## lazybfarm (Nov 12, 2021)

Sorry Tom , to answer your question about their size, my 2 Aldabras are @ 20lbs and are growing at rate of about 3 lbs per month now ! My sulcata is little over a year old and is about 3 lbs . I am waiting to close on the sale of my current house to then close on the new one ? . But it should all happen in the next few weeks . 
I was planning on building my new tortoise barn at my new house , but while we are waiting for everything to close, the tortoises are growing litterally everyday , so I am going to complete this indoor enclosure for them while I have time . They will have about 1 1/2 to 2 acres of what is a hillside with trees and rocks and grass at the new house. I think they will love it . I can’t wait to get them there. Probably next spring .


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## lazybfarm (Nov 13, 2021)

4’x7’ door will go about here


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## Markw84 (Nov 13, 2021)

lazybfarm said:


> I have decided to make my new tortoise room a sealed enclosure. It will only have 1 opening , a 44" wide commercial steel door. I plan on building the floor up with treated 2x6's on 16" centers, then I will put down styrofoam board insulation on the concrete, then fill the cavity with fiberglass insulation. Then I will cover the floor with 3/4" plywood This should prevent any heat loss through the floor. I am going to fill the new concrete block walls with bead insulation. The exterior block walls will have 2x4 strips installed and foam board [ maybe spray foam depending on the cost ] installed between the 2x4's , then 3/4" plywood over the exterior walls. Now that it is all sealed, I am going to paint he inside ,floor ceiling ,walls with white flex seal. I will then cover the floor and up 2' on the walls with a heavy duty pond liner. Then I will cover the floor and 4' up on the walls with heavy rubber horse stall mats. I can then cover the floor with cypress mulch and it can be cleaned out like cleaning a horse stall, I can then keep the substrate damp by spraying it down , or spray off the tortoises any where in the enclosure. I plan on using some LED grow lights to grow plants for them in the room in pots . I will need some kind of UVB light . Does the grow lights produce any UVB? I would need a strong light to be mounted on the 8" ceiling. Maybe put in a UVB light in their night boxes ? My idea for heat is to use a mini split system , or maybe some kind of greenhouse heater ? not sure yet , any ideas on heat would be great. Keep in mind that does not get brutally cold here, mostly 50's during the day in winter for highs, sometimes its 70 and sometimes its 25 for highs , but this would be only for 1-2 days either way on the extremes. So the ceiling will have an exhaust fan to pull in some fresh air when needed, maybe on a timer to change some of the air out a couple of times a day . Each tortoise will have their own area in this room using retaining wall blocks for walls so that can be moved adjusted as needed. Within each area will be a heated night house with RHP and kane mat.
> So those are my thoughts this morning on how I want to do it, If any body has any suggestions or advice , please feel free to chime in. The block guy is coming saturday to start on the walls.


Please keep updates coming. I am loving this project and your plans. A room like this on their permanent outdoor area would be perfect with doors to come in and out at will, yet closed at night and in very cold weather.

As far as your lighting, I would make a basking area as mentioned previously in another of my replies earlier. I would build a simple square rack about 4' x 6' or so. Hang that from the ceiling so it is about 4 ft above tortoise level. then hang 2 - 48" T5 12% UVB fixtures about 2 ft apart. In between Hang a row of 3 brooder domes for incandescent flood bulbs. Add another row on either side of the outside of the UVB fixtures and you would have a great basking area. You could adjust height easily of both the fixtures and the frame.

In your latitude in N Alabama, You may not need UVB at all if there is not more that 4-6 weeks of time when they have no outside time. In latitudes above 40°, I would always add UVB as 1/3 the year there simply is not enough UVB even in sunlight. However, I do like the added UVA in the overall lighting configuration as I do believe UVA is a key trigger to a lot of daily and annual rhythms for tortoises and overall well-being.


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## lazybfarm (Nov 13, 2021)

Thanks Mark , the basking area lighting rack is a great idea , I will definitely incorporate this into the room .

One thing I am working on now is I am trying to buy the property that is right behind the back wall of this new room .It is about 75 x150 ‘ . If that works out, then there will a door for them to go in and out at will when weather permits. They usually can go outside at least once or twice a week in winter around here . So the uvb lights may be not needed, but I will probably put them in anyway .
Block guys are getting started now !


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## lazybfarm (Nov 13, 2021)

my new house, ( it is not really new, just new to me ) built in the 70s (the house looks like , if El Chapo had a house in north Alabama this would be it. ?) there are 2 large buildings that I may want to turn into my tortoise house . Here is a pic of one of them , it is about 30 ‘ in diameter , it was once an outdoor kitchen , but is too far from the house, so I am thinking about closing it in and building their night boxes inside this building . 
The other pic is part of their roaming area
It is about 1 1/2 to 2 acres , sun , shade grass, trees , rocks , mostly already fenced with a concrete block and stucco fence that is 5’ tall


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## lazybfarm (Nov 13, 2021)

Just for fun , it is 49 degrees outside now . Here is the ground temp where the sun is shining in their outdoor enclosure . 93 degrees


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## lazybfarm (Nov 13, 2021)

If you look at the the outdoor kitchen photo in post #29 and zoom in , you can see the fence that is around the entire 4 acres . This is one of the main reasons I wanted this house !


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## lazybfarm (Nov 13, 2021)

Progress


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## Chubbs the tegu (Nov 13, 2021)

lazybfarm said:


> Progress


Its always nice taking pics while others do the work ? but seriously ill be following this thread.. lucky torts


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## lazybfarm (Nov 13, 2021)

I know my limitations ?


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## NorCal tortoise guy (Nov 13, 2021)

lazybfarm said:


> If you look at the the outdoor kitchen photo in post #29 and zoom in , you can see the fence that is around the entire 4 acres . This is one of the main reasons I wanted this house !


Beautiful! Sounds about perfect


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## Yvonne G (Nov 13, 2021)

I love it! Keep those pictures coming.


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## lazybfarm (Nov 14, 2021)

Should finish the walls today . You can get an idea of the size of it


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## lazybfarm (Nov 14, 2021)

I am going to have to decide on a method for heating the room . I am thinking about using a 10KW hanging electric fan forced heater with a thermostat to heat the ambient room temp to 78 at night and 82 during the day, with hanging racks with incandescent bulbs for basking and 4' UVB fixture , set on timers and attached to the ceiling so I can raise or lower the rack as needed. The night boxes will have a 120W RHP and a kane mat, controlled by Vivarium Electronics VE -300X2 thermostat ,This thermostat has 2 zones and can control the RHP and Kane mat separately, One for each tortoise. I will also install some Wyze cameras inside the room and the night boxes so I can monitor their activity from anywhere without going inside. I am also going to install a couple of ceiling fans to keep the air moving and temps throughout the room at a uniform level . There will be a very minimal amount of outside air coming in to the room , the only opening will be the door, and it is sealed pretty well . So I am hoping that I can keep the humidity level up by keeping the cypress mulch damp. Just like in their PVC enclosures. There will be a soaking spot in each section also .
I am also going to install an LED grow light in each tortoises area to grow some plants , there will also be some LED ambient lighting in the room . set on timers.

Just thinking out loud about my ideas, if anyone has any thoughts or concerns, please chime in !


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## Blackdog1714 (Nov 14, 2021)

lazybfarm said:


> my new house, ( it is not really new, just new to me ) built in the 70s (the house looks like , if El Chapo had a house in north Alabama this would be it. ?) there are 2 large buildings that I may want to turn into my tortoise house . Here is a pic of one of them , it is about 30 ‘ in diameter , it was once an outdoor kitchen , but is too far from the house, so I am thinking about closing it in and building their night boxes inside this building .
> The other pic is part of their roaming area
> It is about 1 1/2 to 2 acres , sun , shade grass, trees , rocks , mostly already fenced with a concrete block and stucco fence that is 5’ tall


For that round room at the new place think Zoo reptile room with thick insulated glass so you look in at them. Keep it up your torts are worth it!


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## Yvonne G (Nov 14, 2021)

lazybfarm said:


> Should finish the walls today . You can get an idea of the size of it


https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/search/rubber stall mats? I use the $33 mats and they've been holding up well with all the abuse 100+lb Dudley gives them


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## lazybfarm (Nov 14, 2021)

Yes Blackdog, that is what I was thinking when I first saw that building. Zoo. 
I also have a scarlet macaw and a double yellow head Amazon parrot, both are 32 years old. I got them as babies in 1990 !
I also have a couple of white peacocks . I also need a large aviary ?


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## jaizei (Nov 14, 2021)

No volunteers to move that ladder?  



lazybfarm said:


> I am also going to install an LED grow light in each tortoises area to grow some plants , there will also be some LED ambient lighting in the room . set on timers.
> 
> Just thinking out loud about my ideas, if anyone has any thoughts or concerns, please chime in !



I'd prob start with 4 high bays, either LED or the 6 lamp fluorescent, to see where that got you for ambient lighting. Most LED high bays I've seen are 0-10v dimmable, so it's relatively easy to set them up with a controller to simulate dawn/dusk instead of an instant on/off.


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## dd33 (Nov 14, 2021)

I have a bunch of questions for you. 

Are you definitely going with the raised floor? If you are, how are you going to waterproof the wood to keep it from rotting with wet mulch on top of it? Pressure treated wood would help but the decaying mulch seems like a rot/termite nightmare.

How are you going to get rid of the water from their soaking pools?

Do you have propane or natural gas or is your only option electric heat for the air?


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## lazybfarm (Nov 14, 2021)

I am going to seal the wood with flex seal , the line the floor and up 2’ on the walls with pond liner , then cover that with horse stall mats on the floor and 4’ up on the wall, then cypress mulch .


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## lazybfarm (Nov 14, 2021)

Yes I have 4 - 100w high bay led lights that are dimmable that will be the ambient lighting
My only option for heat is electric or propane


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## lazybfarm (Nov 14, 2021)

Do you guys think propane is better than electric? I am an electrical contractor so all of the installation would be cheap as possible, material cost only, would the electric heat cost more to run than the propane ( propane is pretty expensive here) ?


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## lazybfarm (Nov 14, 2021)

Walls are finished, ceiling going in tomorrow


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## dd33 (Nov 14, 2021)

Electric heat would be easier for you to install. Propane may be cheaper to run but it depends on your local propane vs electricity costs. One potential benefit to using propane is that it releases a lot of moisture during combustion. If you chose an unvented heater this could help with humidity. Carbon dioxide and other combustion gasses are released though too.


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## lazybfarm (Nov 15, 2021)

Got it ! That is why I love you guys! The answer is both. I will have electric for normal use , and a propane heater for back up !


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## lazybfarm (Nov 15, 2021)

Floor going in now !


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## lazybfarm (Nov 15, 2021)

Jackson and General outside this morning , temp is around 58, ground temp was 104 when I checked it before I let them go out


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## lazybfarm (Nov 15, 2021)

Insulation and plywood going down


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## lazybfarm (Nov 15, 2021)

Floor is done


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## Yvonne G (Nov 15, 2021)

lazybfarm said:


> Floor is done


It seems to be going quickly!


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## Toddrickfl1 (Nov 15, 2021)

These are my favorite kind of posts. Loving the updates.


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## lazybfarm (Nov 15, 2021)

Yes ! It is going very quickly ! Tomorrow the ceiling joist and decking will go in, and I am running a 100A circuit and breaker box just for the room . I am going to design the lighting and power plan for the heat ,ambient lighting, ceiling fans, basking lighting, UVB lighting, night house power , ventilation and fresh air . Speaking of that, I am thinking about installing an exhaust/fresh air intake system on a timer that will change out a little of the air if I decide it is needed, and LED grow lights. I will start getting the wiring installed tomorrow and done by wednesday. I have ordered a couple of Kane heat mats for their night houses, I got the 27"X 36" which should do them for a while . I already have a couple of 120W RHPs and 2 Vivarium Electronics VE-300x2 controllers. These controllers will control 2 zones, one for the kane mat and one for the RHP, these zones can be set independently of each other and have day and night settings, pretty cool . I will also install Wyze cameras in the night houses and the room itself so I can monitor them at all times.
It seemed like everything I have set up for them has been outgrown very quickly , so with these guys , bigger is always better . Hopefully this will last them for a few years ! Or, Baxter, my sulcata , will inherit one killer sulcata lair !


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## lazybfarm (Nov 16, 2021)

Ceiling joists going in today


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## lazybfarm (Nov 16, 2021)

Had a great idea today . I don’t know why I haven’t thought of it, but I am going to try to procure some 4x8x1/2 pvc sheet to use on the walls and ceiling . It will be impervious to the moisture and I won’t have to paint or seal it. 
There is a company that makes it in my town -Kommerling . They are one of the world’s largest manufacturers of pvc sheet and I can go there and pick it up ! When I bought the sheets for their enclosures they are in now it was around $50 sheet . It my be a lot more now , don’t know, but most all pvc products have gone up by 3-400%


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## dd33 (Nov 16, 2021)

Are you still going to put the stall mats down low on the walls?


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## lazybfarm (Nov 17, 2021)

Yes , I still plan on using the horse stall mats 2’ up on the walls and on the floor


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## lazybfarm (Nov 17, 2021)

Decking on the top going down today


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## lazybfarm (Nov 18, 2021)

Walls stripped out for insulation


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## AgataP (Nov 18, 2021)

lazybfarm said:


> Walls stripped out for insulation


Packing my bag and my tortoise - I am moving in ?

Amazing work!!


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## Yvonne G (Nov 19, 2021)

This is all just SO NICE!!! I wish I had that.


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## Mrs.Jennifer (Nov 21, 2021)

lazybfarm said:


> Walls stripped out for insulation


Your tortoise room will definitely have more insulation than my house that was built in 1810…


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## lazybfarm (Nov 22, 2021)

I here you about the insulation , my house was built in 1886 !
Here is the electrical plan and general layout of the room . We are putting in the ceiling today, R30 insulation and 5/8 x4x8 plywood . The walls will go on next, with 3/4 “ foam board and 5/8 plywood on the exterior walls. 
Hopefully be ready to seal with flex seal in a couple of days, then my pond liner and hored mats . 
Just bought $1200 worth of horse stall mats at tractor supply ?
I installed a 290 cfm exhaust fan to change out some air , I have it run to a timer and probably run it a couple of times a day for 5 or 10 minutes when /if needed.


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## lazybfarm (Nov 23, 2021)

Walls going in today, got my heater hooked up temporarily to see how it will do


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## dd33 (Nov 23, 2021)

lazybfarm said:


> Walls going in today, got my heater hooked up temporarily to see how it will do


Nice. How are you going to control the heater?


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## lazybfarm (Nov 24, 2021)

Heater has a built in thermostat, I am testing it out now. If it doesn’t work like I want it to, I will install a thermostat mounted lower on the wall that will control a relay to the heater. I have a fan to keep the air moving in the room , to try to keep the temps throughout the room uniform -ish
Here are some pics of the room ready to be sealed
Also a screen capture from my Wyze cam


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## lazybfarm (Dec 13, 2021)

I finally have everything I need to finish the room , painter will be here Wednesday, probably be done in 1 day , then I will apply the flex seal on the floor and around the walls, I’ve got a pond liner that will go down next and horse stall mats to cover floor and 2’ up on the walls. I’ve got 2 - 27x36” Kane heat mats, 2- 120w RHPs, 2- LED grow lights, 2- 48” T5 UVB lights, 8- 65w incandescent bulbs, 10kw electric heat system, exhaust fan with 6” input and exhaust . This is a major operation ?


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## Yvonne G (Dec 13, 2021)

. . . and definitely expensive. That Flex Seal is quite expensive per can. I can't imagine buying it for a whole floor!


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## lazybfarm (Dec 13, 2021)

I got 7.5 gallons to do the floor, bought from Flexseal, it comes in 2.5gallon buckets for $199. So $600 worth of flex seal . ?


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## Lyn W (Dec 13, 2021)

Looks fantastic! 
I wish I had a decent sized basement or garage for my tort.


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## lazybfarm (Dec 22, 2021)

Painting is done ! It is ready to trim out now . I will install the lights , pond liner and horse stall mats in the next couple of days. Should have it ready for Jackson and General in a week or so


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## lazybfarm (Dec 22, 2021)

32 horse stall mats, pond liner


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## dd33 (Dec 22, 2021)

32 mats on one trip, that is some serious weight back there!


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## Markw84 (Dec 22, 2021)

dd33 said:


> 32 mats on one trip, that is some serious weight back there!


Exactly! The 4x6 3/4" mats are about 95lbs ea!!!


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## lazybfarm (Dec 23, 2021)

They have been in the back of my truck for a week, I don’t want to unload them until they are going down, it is very hard to handle them


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## dd33 (Dec 23, 2021)

They make a grabber/handle for dragging them around. It helps quite a bit.


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## lazybfarm (Dec 24, 2021)

Pond liner is in. ? horse mats about to go down !


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## jsheffield (Dec 24, 2021)

I love watching the progress on this work!

#inspiring

Jamie


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## lazybfarm (Dec 24, 2021)

lookin good ?


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## lazybfarm (Dec 24, 2021)

Here is how the horse mats will go on the walls


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## lazybfarm (Dec 24, 2021)

Floor down, wall pieces going in


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## lazybfarm (Dec 26, 2021)

Building the 4’x4’ frames for the basking bulbs , 4-65w incandescent flood bulbs. 1 at each corner. There will also be a 48” T5 12%UVB bulb down the middle of the rack. I will suspend this rack from the ceiling to maintain 20” above the top of their carapaces. Probably flat rocks under this rack


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## vladimir (Dec 26, 2021)

Great work, looking forward to more updates!


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## lazybfarm (Dec 27, 2021)

Horse mats are all down/ installed on the walls, ready for mulch! Then the torts!


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## lazybfarm (Dec 28, 2021)

Today Im working on painting the basking light racks and then installing the wiring and lights. This afternoon Im heading to Home Depot to get 140 bags of cypress mulch . 560 sq ft x 6" deep = 280 cubic feet. 2 cubic feet per bag , so 140 bags to make a substrate 6" deep. This room is about to become a reality very soon ! I hope Jackson and General like it . ???


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## Markw84 (Dec 28, 2021)

@lazybfarm Are you going to have night boxes for them inside the room? My plans for a room like this includes a night box with temps at 82° and letting the room go to 70° or so at night. More energy efficeint. Plus I like having them in the habit of going into a shelter at night on their own each night. As they get bigger that is very valuable behavior!


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## lazybfarm (Dec 28, 2021)

Yes there will be 2- 6x6 x 4’ night boxes, each with a 120 w RHP and a Kane mat 27x36, both controlled by a Vivarium Electronics VE-300x2 programmable thermostat , the mats are a little big for them now, but they are growing into them every day ! I figure I can make them a bigger house when needed and use the same components


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## lazybfarm (Dec 28, 2021)

I figure I will build the night houses last, as they can do fine just in the room for a few days. They need to be in there ASAP, their 4x8x3 PVC enclosures are getting smaller every day !


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## lazybfarm (Dec 29, 2021)

Basking racks installed , I can raise or lower as needed. I am going to install the uvb fixtures on the racks next


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## Markw84 (Dec 29, 2021)

lazybfarm said:


> Basking racks installed , I can raise or lower as needed. I am going to install the uvb fixtures on the racks next


Love it!!

I would check temps on the black mats to see how even the temperature distribution is from those 4 lights. They are spaced a bit far apart for low wattage. See what you get for even heating. You may find 100 or150 watt bulbs higher up would give a more even distribution. You don't want hot spots smaller than the tortoise is.


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## lazybfarm (Dec 29, 2021)

UVB lights installed, also I just installed a Wi-Fi connected thermometer/ humidity hub with 3 sensors, it will notify me if my parameters are off, I have the temps set at 70 minimum and 95 max on temp alerts and humidity is 60 min and 90 max .


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## lazybfarm (Dec 29, 2021)

The racks are a little high still , waiting for the mulch installation, then I will position them, but I had checked it and it was only 76 at the floor , but I am not running any heat now, the temps here have been in the mid 70s all week


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## lazybfarm (Dec 29, 2021)

I may change out the keyless fixtures for a flood light socket that I can adjust and aim them as needed, but you are right that I may need some higher wattage bulbs , at least 75 or 90w


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## lazybfarm (Dec 30, 2021)

Testing the Kane mats with the VE-300X2
Working great !


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## lazybfarm (Dec 30, 2021)

Loadin up the mulch !


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## Lyn W (Dec 30, 2021)

That is a fantastic room for your torts they are very lucky.
The only thing I would suggest is covering the joins in the mats with something to stop urine seeping through. 
I used to use interlocking mats but had to take them up everyday to clean up the puddles beneath and wash the back of the mats - a real pain!


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## lazybfarm (Dec 30, 2021)

Well I figured the deep mulch would soak up any urine and I have the pond liner underneath. This room will be for winter only , and my plan is to clean out the mulch every spring down to the mats.


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## lazybfarm (Dec 30, 2021)

Mulch is in. The area by the door will be framed with rock , so you don’t open the door and the torts will be in the way. The area in the middle will be a soaking pond


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## Lyn W (Dec 30, 2021)

lazybfarm said:


> Mulch is in. The area by the door will be framed with rock , so you don’t open the door and the torts will be in the way. The area in the middle will be a soaking pond


I wish I could give my leopard a home like that.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 30, 2021)

Is it possible to switch the door around so it opens outward, then you put a board across the bottom to keep the mulch and tortoises in?


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## lazybfarm (Dec 30, 2021)

Door does open outward . I just thought that people could walk in and close the door , but not be standing in the substrate.


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## lazybfarm (Dec 30, 2021)

Here they are checking it out for the first time!


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## Yvonne G (Dec 30, 2021)

You're sure getting a lot done. Makes me feel pretty guilty, as I'm not hardly getting any of my work done.


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## lazybfarm (Dec 30, 2021)

Here is a screen shot of my temp/ humidity monitoring system , there are 3 sensors in the room.


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## lazybfarm (Dec 31, 2021)

They each found a corner


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## lazybfarm (Dec 31, 2021)

General and Jackson


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## Maggie3fan (Dec 31, 2021)

Please tell me that BIG room that you have put so much effort and money into will house more then 2 tortoises???! 
I'm gonna ship Mary K to you for the winter...lol


Are you gonna put sleeping boxes in for them?


Every big tortoise that I've had has slept in this one...there's a pig blanket inside and enuf room for the tortoise to get off the mat and stay in the hide...


I know they feel safer in the box...


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## lazybfarm (Dec 31, 2021)

Yes, I am building their night boxes as we speak, the Kane mats are sitting where the night houses will be. Here is a screen shot from my temp/ humidity sensors this morning. #1 is in the middle of the back wall, #2 is in the corner where General is, #3 is in the corner where Jackson is. I guess they have picked which side they want ?
I plan on putting a wall down the middle, so each one has a side


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## lazybfarm (Dec 31, 2021)

I have 2 Aldabras and 1 sulcata, the sulcata is only 3.5 lbs now, so he will go in here too when he outgrows one of the Aldabras 4x8x3’ PVC enclosures , he is in a 3x8 x2’PVC enclosure now


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## lazybfarm (Jan 1, 2022)

So I have decided to downsize their night houses to 4' x4' x 3' as this will fit them better for now,As I laid it out to build it I realized that it was a little too big for them to feel secure , so, I am going to build just a basic plywood house with a floor, hinged top with the RHP mounted on that and Ive got 2- 18"x18" kane mats that will be better suited to their size .... for now. This will be fine until summer. Next fall I will build them a bigger more elaborate house , that will last them a long time .


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## Maggie3fan (Jan 1, 2022)

lazybfarm said:


> So I have decided to downsize their night houses to 4' x4' x 3' as this will fit them better for now,As I laid it out to build it I realized that it was a little too big for them to feel secure , so, I am going to build just a basic plywood house with a floor, hinged top with the RHP mounted on that and Ive got 2- 18"x18" kane mats that will be better suited to their size .... for now. This will be fine until summer. Next fall I will build them a bigger more elaborate house , that will last them a long time .


I really do think the size of the box is important for them to feel safe and secure...good job!


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## lazybfarm (Jan 6, 2022)

I decided to look on Amazon for a tortoise house, check these out . I made the doors , the lid hinges open, looks good enough. 120w rhp installed,I’ve 2 -18”x18” Kane mats coming today, so I am almost there ! 
These are dog houses , don’t tell Jackson and General .


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## Markw84 (Jan 6, 2022)

lazybfarm said:


> I decided to look on Amazon for a tortoise house, check these out . I made the doors , the lid hinges open, looks good enough. 120w rhp installed,I’ve 2 -18”x18” Kane mats coming today, so I am almost there !
> These are dog houses , don’t tell Jackson and General .


Looks good! For inside a room those should work OK. Would not work outside without adding insulation and door flaps.

Can you check temps inside those at night and what the room ambient is? Then post results. I'd like to see what you are getting and what differential inside box/ambient room you can maintain.

Thanks!!


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## lazybfarm (Jan 6, 2022)

Right now , with the door open and just the rhp on, it is 90 degrees inside the house, and 82 inside the big room . I figured since these are “inside” , that they would be sufficient , especially since they will probably only last 1 winter. I guess I can sell them as dog houses when I’m done with them
One interesting observation after 1 week of them being in there, they tend to sleep in the coolest spot in the room which is @ 78 degrees. They have been all over it, on the Kane mats, under the basking lights. But they settle down in the coolest spot. Their pvc enclosures never dropped below 80. 
Also, I am going to lower my basking rack, I am not getting enough UVB now according to my meter . It reads 4 at about 20” below the light


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## lazybfarm (Jan 7, 2022)

Here are the new Kane mats installed. Working great with the VE 300x2 set in proportional Conttol mode. Maintains temp very well . I put the temp probe under a rock so it will maintain close contact with the mat, if you look at the the pics you can see the temp probe for zone 2 , the 120w RHP , it is about tortoise high off the floor
What uvb readings should I have for Aldabras . I have it adjusted to where it is reading @ 4 on my 6.5 meter


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## lazybfarm (Feb 11, 2022)

So….after the torts have been living in the new enclosure for a little over a month, I have a few observations. 
First, it is amazing that the moisture level in the room has barely dropped in over a month, and I have not added any water other than refilling the “pond” . The mulch was damp from being in the rain when I put it in and the humidity was 95% when it first went in. It is still 85-90% depending on where you test it, so I am pleased with the ability to retain the moisture levels. It is very air tight . 
Second, the tortoises have been all over the room, in the houses, in the pond, but they sleep in what is the coolest corner of the enclosure @ 76 degrees at night, even though they could go anywhere else in the room where it is a little bit warmer. Some areas only gets down to 83 at night. So very interesting that they prefer the cooler area to sleep.
They have always spent their outside time together, but had separate enclosures while indoors. Now they are together all the time. They tend to do things together, when one gets up to go bask, the other one joins them. If one of them starts eating, then the other will soon join in . I have not seen any type of behavior that would be called “bullying” . When I have tried to see if it is one or the other that usually initiates the activity , it could be either one, so for now, they seem to be on a level playing field and enjoying the social interaction with each other
They have gotten used to the routine of me coming in a couple of times a day to feed/ clean up etc. and do not try to run or hide. They are starting to look big , they are @ 28 lbs now. 
I was concerned that the all electric heat sources would be costly to operate, but My electric bill only went up about $75 last month, so I am happy that it seems like it is working pretty well . Heating a 560 sq ft room to 87 degrees and keeping it there, $75 seems pretty good . The money spent insulating and sealing the room was well spent.
So all in I am pleased with how it turned out , Jackson and General seem to like it, and I hope they can get a few years out of it before they outgrow this one too ! ?????


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## lazybfarm (Feb 11, 2022)

Here is a screen shot of the telemetry fro my 3 temp/humidity sensors today. Note that I have not added any moisture to the room in over a month !


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## lazybfarm (Feb 11, 2022)

Lol, I was getting a call when I took the screenshot


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## dd33 (Feb 11, 2022)

lazybfarm said:


> So….after the torts have been living in the new enclosure for a little over a month, I have a few observations.
> First, it is amazing that the moisture level in the room has barely dropped in over a month, and I have not added any water other than refilling the “pond” . The mulch was damp from being in the rain when I put it in and the humidity was 95% when it first went in. It is still 85-90% depending on where you test it, so I am pleased with the ability to retain the moisture levels. It is very air tight .
> Second, the tortoises have been all over the room, in the houses, in the pond, but they sleep in what is the coolest corner of the enclosure @ 76 degrees at night, even though they could go anywhere else in the room where it is a little bit warmer. Some areas only gets down to 83 at night. So very interesting that they prefer the cooler area to sleep.
> They have always spent their outside time together, but had separate enclosures while indoors. Now they are together all the time. They tend to do things together, when one gets up to go bask, the other one joins them. If one of them starts eating, then the other will soon join in . I have not seen any type of behavior that would be called “bullying” . When I have tried to see if it is one or the other that usually initiates the activity , it could be either one, so for now, they seem to be on a level playing field and enjoying the social interaction with each other
> ...


Looking good. How difficult would it be to heat the 76 degree area to 83 or more and see if they change their sleeping spot? I am curious to know if they want something cooler or if that is the spot they picked to sleep and they are going to stay there no matter what.

These guys do seem to get along well at this size. I have never once seen any aggression in ours either until Mazuri day comes around. In that case its a race to the feeding tray and the first one there climbs on top of the food pile. Then they all hiss at each other while they eat. Even when they are extra greedy like that they still don't push each other around. I am sure this will change a bit as they mature though


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