# russians?



## chase thorn (Sep 30, 2011)

so im curious of how many Russian breeders there are here? ive been looking in the sold and for sale and no luck finding many...


----------



## dmmj (Sep 30, 2011)

I don't know of any really, some seem to do it by chance then actively breeding. I like many others are trying to set up breeding groups.


----------



## chase thorn (Sep 30, 2011)

dmmj said:


> I don't know of any really, some seem to do it by chance then actively breeding. I like many others are trying to set up breeding groups.



well lets hope all works out!!


----------



## lynnedit (Sep 30, 2011)

ditto that!


----------



## Yvonne G (Sep 30, 2011)

GBTortoises in New York, and Greg Knoll in Arizona.


----------



## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 1, 2011)

If GBTortoises' recent postings are any indication, it sounds like breeding Russians is a bit difficult. He made the point that there are more CB sulcatas out there than Russians, so maybe that means Russians are harder to breed in captivity. While that may be true, I just think another reason might be that Russians are newer to the trade, and while other Testudos are very popular, Russians may not have developed a "following" yet. Considering how small, tough, and active they are, though, I think it's only a matter of time until the right people in the right climates, or with the right indoor equipment, start breeding them. My guys aren't old enough yet, but I predict the climate here in Colorado will encourage their breeding someday.


----------



## AnthonyC (Oct 1, 2011)

I have been having the same problem as Chase. I posted in the "Wanted" section but no luck but I did speak w/Gary & he gave me the name of a friend of his in Spring Valley, NY that may have them. I'm planning on giving him a call and possibly stopping out there tomorrow. Luckily it's only a 45min drive from my house. I'm going to look up the gentleman's name & I'll pass it on to you. Hope that helps a little bit.


----------



## GBtortoises (Oct 1, 2011)

GeoTerraTestudo-Russian tortoises have been imported into the U.S. since the 60's. And very heavily throughout the past two decades. It's not a matter of them being newer to the trade. They've been in captivity longer than Sulcata, Leopards and a few others. While the majority of imports are barely 4" (and mostly males), there are plently of people with fully mature adults over 6". While some people, especially those in more ideal climates in the U.S. do have some limited breeding sucess for the most part the vast majority of Russians are being kept in climates where they simply are not going to breed if relying solely on seasonal changes to trigger the mating instinct. Unless of course they are being "manipulated" to do so by artificial means. Which if captive born Russians are ever to be produced in large numbers in captivity, that is likely how it's going to have to be done. The underlying problem for the lack of captive born Russians at the moment is the simple fact that small wild caught adults are still very plentiful, easy and cheap to obtain. It's more expensive to buy captive borns.


----------



## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 1, 2011)

GBtortoises said:


> GeoTerraTestudo-Russian tortoises have been imported into the U.S. since the 60's. And very heavily throughout the past two decades. It's not a matter of them being newer to the trade. They've been in captivity longer than Sulcata, Leopards and a few others. While the majority of imports are barely 4" (and mostly males), there are plently of people with fully mature adults over 6". While some people, especially those in more ideal climates in the U.S. do have some limited breeding sucess for the most part the vast majority of Russians are being kept in climates where they simply are not going to breed if relying solely on seasonal changes to trigger the mating instinct. Unless of course they are being "manipulated" to do so by artificial means. Which if captive born Russians are ever to be produced in large numbers in captivity, that is likely how it's going to have to be done. The underlying problem for the lack of captive born Russians at the moment is the simple fact that small wild caught adults are still very plentiful, easy and cheap to obtain. It's more expensive to buy captive borns.



Wow ... and that means wild populations are going to continue being depleted. Unfortunately, at this rate the only thing that would put a stop to it would be population decline, much as what has happened with box turtles here in North America. We need lots more captive breeders to prevent that.


----------



## GBtortoises (Oct 2, 2011)

At the current rate of importation wild Russian tortoises probably only have two avenues to take-population depletion to the point of threatened existance of the species or human intervention in a positive manner. By that I mean regulating their collection and importation. It's doubtful that their collection will be regulated at their source. People in those areas have more important things to worry about and for some, collecting tortoises is an income that feeds their family. I hate to say it and would hate to have it come to this point but if the U.S. were to ban their importation into our country it would eventually help the wild populations. Several thousand Russians are imported into the U.S. alone each year. All of those are between 4-5". Importers try to skirt the 4" mark as much as possible in order to ship more tortoises in the same crate. By collecting and shipping only one size you are essentially removing an entire generation from the wild. They are shipped in such large numbers, so cheaply that they have replaced the green iguana and Red Ear Slider as the pet shop "staple" reptile. Indicated very prominately by them being sold in large chains like Petco and PetSmart.


----------



## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 2, 2011)

GBtortoises said:


> At the current rate of importation wild Russian tortoises probably only have two avenues to take-population depletion to the point of threatened existance of the species or human intervention in a positive manner. By that I mean regulating their collection and importation. It's doubtful that their collection will be regulated at their source. People in those areas have more important things to worry about and for some, collecting tortoises is an income that feeds their family. I hate to say it and would hate to have it come to this point but if the U.S. were to ban their importation into our country it would eventually help the wild populations. Several thousand Russians are imported into the U.S. alone each year. All of those are between 4-5". Importers try to skirt the 4" mark as much as possible in order to ship more tortoises in the same crate. By collecting and shipping only one size you are essentially removing an entire generation from the wild. They are shipped in such large numbers, so cheaply that they have replaced the green iguana and Red Ear Slider as the pet shop "staple" reptile. Indicated very prominately by them being sold in large chains like Petco and PetSmart.



That is very sad news. I love these animals, and I would rather bar their importation so they can survive in their native range, than have them live here with me and go extinct in the wild ... especially since it sounds like propagating them in captivity might not work, at least not on a large scale. How can we go about banning their importation here in the US, the way Europe has done with other Testudos? As I've said, it's good that you can no longer collect boxies from the wild, but this legislation only came through after boxies were already becoming endangered. We need to preemptively protect Russian tortoises in the wild, and not just react to market forces or to plummeting source populations.


----------



## chase thorn (Oct 2, 2011)

hey geo, let me know when you get some hatchling Russians, i would be more than willing to drive an hour to Denver and take one off your hands


----------



## Floof (Oct 2, 2011)

I'm at the same stage as dmmj. Trying to put together a group. I was given 4 adults yesterday, so I'm finally getting started on that... Only problem is 3 of them are male, so the ratio is kind of backwards.. heh.  Working on separating the female, picking which male I want to keep, and tracking down another couple girls to round things out, then maybe, if I'm lucky enough, I can FINALLY get started on this (something I've been yammering on about doing for the better part of a year, and thinking about for almost 2 years...).

I believe Tyler Stewart/Tortoise Supply in Las Vegas breeds Russians, too, as far as good and current breeders are concerned.


----------



## GeoTerraTestudo (Oct 2, 2011)

chase thorn said:


> hey geo, let me know when you get some hatchling Russians, i would be more than willing to drive an hour to Denver and take one off your hands



Sweet! Gonna be a couple years, though... :shy:


----------



## chase thorn (Oct 2, 2011)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> chase thorn said:
> 
> 
> > hey geo, let me know when you get some hatchling Russians, i would be more than willing to drive an hour to Denver and take one off your hands
> ...



i can wait!


----------



## Neltharion (Oct 4, 2011)

chase thorn said:


> so im curious of how many Russian breeders there are here? ive been looking in the sold and for sale and no luck finding many...



I have a 3.6 group in Northern California. Mine have been breeding the past four years. It took two years with no results and the help of the local club members to help me get it right. Locally, there are quite a few of the club members that successfully breed their Russians. I think though that quite a few people mistakenly believe that because Russians are easy to care for, that they are also easy to breed (I was under this impression when I made the choice to buy them). They've been somewhat difficult.


----------



## GBtortoises (Oct 5, 2011)

Neltharion-I completely agree: "quite a few people mistakenly believe that because Russians are easy to car for, that they are also easy to breed". 

I think many people are under the false believe that by just sticking a male and female together that they are going to start popping out eggs like crazy. Based on the number of adults in captivity compared to the relatively low number of hatchlings available this obviously isn't true. Russians are actually one of the more difficult species to breed in captivity on a consistent basis.

We'd love to hear the methods that you are using to entice your Russians to breed and produce fertile eggs on a regular basis. I for one have a ton of questions for you! Indoors, outdoors, both? Hibernation (duration)? Temperatures and light duration upon waking from hibernation or in the spring? And more!


----------



## Neltharion (Oct 5, 2011)

GBtortoises said:


> Neltharion-I completely agree: "quite a few people mistakenly believe that because Russians are easy to car for, that they are also easy to breed".
> 
> I think many people are under the false believe that by just sticking a male and female together that they are going to start popping out eggs like crazy. Based on the number of adults in captivity compared to the relatively low number of hatchlings available this obviously isn't true. Russians are actually one of the more difficult species to breed in captivity on a consistent basis.
> 
> We'd love to hear the methods that you are using to entice your Russians to breed and produce fertile eggs on a regular basis. I for one have a ton of questions for you! Indoors, outdoors, both? Hibernation (duration)? Temperatures and light duration upon waking from hibernation or in the spring? And more!



I think some of the lack of breeding despite large numbers being imported is simply due to the affordability of wild caughts. They've become the tortoise of choice for a lot of hobbyists that want a single pet with no desire to breed. Its too bad that more people don't pair them up or get trios and take a crack at breeding.

I'm in Northern California. November through April, the nighttime lows in the Sacramento area range from the high 30's to the mid 40's on the average. Dec and Jan have average highs in the 50's. Feb, Mar, Nov in the 60's. Apr 70's. 

Mine start to dig in a bit in early October, when the days really start getting short. Because we still have a lot of days in the high 70's to low 90's, they seem to be 'prepping' for hibernation instead of really digging in and staying down. They still come out during the day and eat. I worry that because of the slightly warmer weather, they would go into hibernation and not be dug in deep enough. Mine are kept outdoors from April through October.

I bring them in to an enclosure in the garage from November to the first week of April, where they get 12 hours of mvb lighting and artificial heating (CHE and heating tape). I keep night time temps around 60 and day time temps 80-85 with a higher basking area. 

I don't put mine through a true hibernation. In Feb, I gradually cool them down and decrease the amount of light they get over a two week period. During this period, I also stop feeding. They dig themselves in around 5-6 inches during this time. Then I keep average temps around 60 consistently with no light for two weeks. I've noticed that they shift positions and move around during this two week period, so they're not hibernating. 

In March, I spend another two weeks gradually warming the enclosure back up again. During this time period, I start giving them small amounts of food and gradually increase the amount. After about two weeks, they are back at night time temps around 60 and day time temps 80-85 with a higher basking area, still indoors for another three to four weeks through early April. During this time period, I observe breeding. Mid-April they're back outdoors. That's when I keep an eye out for nesting areas. 

One thing that was interesting to me, when I kept a single trio, the male did not attempt to breed. My first year, I didn't hibernate or attempt a cool down. They didn't breed. The second year, the cool down was recommended to me. I tried that and still no breeding. After two years without success, I talked to a guy at the local tortoise club. He advised me that I wasn't doing anything wrong, but suggested adding to the herd (particularly males) would help spur breeding through competition. He suggested getting another trio, introducing the two males together briefly than putting them back with their females. I wasn't really interested in a second separate enclosure. So I took a huge chance in getting two more trios, and seeing if a larger group would co-exist with dispersed aggression. Its worked pretty well, one male has established himself as the 'alpha', but splits his time chasing after the two other males and six females. The two other males chase the females, but seem to leave each other alone. I've been getting eggs ever since. 

The local tortoise club members with only one male swear by 'play dates'. A few of them will bring their males together to square off, then take them back to their females. Quite a few of them have been successfully breeding for years now.


----------



## CactusVinnie (Oct 25, 2011)

Floof said:


> I'm at the same stage as dmmj. Trying to put together a group. I was given 4 adults yesterday, so I'm finally getting started on that... Only problem is 3 of them are male, so the ratio is kind of backwards.. heh.  Working on separating the female, picking which male I want to keep, and tracking down another couple girls to round things out, then maybe, if I'm lucky enough, I can FINALLY get started on this (something I've been yammering on about doing for the better part of a year, and thinking about for almost 2 years...).
> 
> I believe Tyler Stewart/Tortoise Supply in Las Vegas breeds Russians, too, as far as good and current breeders are concerned.



Floof, I hope that you did not gave your extra males to another person. You can obtain greater variability with another 2 extra males, so your CB's will not have one single father, but three- you will let them all mate with the female, one/year. And in reptiles, a reasonable amount of inbreeding is tolerated, and your babies will be able to breed with their siblings, having only the same mother. You need to keep them registered.

And as Neltharion said, letting the males together to fight for a while in springtime, may have a good effect on their hormones, and make them more fertile. I read somewhere that thing, breeding groups with no success when males did not fight, and after adding one male and let them compete, both became fertile breeders. 

I have 15 A.h. - I think 9.6 or 8.7, hopefully - but I will not gave a single one male. They will breed- when the time will came- by rotating the pairs, so all males breed with all females, evidence kept for all clutches and let the unrelated ones to breed further. But that is to be seen, they are still young, only a few males are mature.


----------



## Raymo2477 (Oct 27, 2011)

I've seen cb Russians for sale at a pa reptile show a few weeks back. The breeder was asking $160, but there were guys selling subadults/adults for $50-75. The breeder said because they are so cheap there almost not worth breeding, which is sad. He said he was basically barely breaking even @ $160 with the time and effort and he did better with his other torts (hermann's, Greek, pancake, stars, etc.). I would hope they would limit the importation to help drive up the prices and make it more profitable to breed them and have more cbb Russians.


----------



## Floof (Oct 27, 2011)

Vinnie--Thanks for the input. I'd heard the same on another thread regarding Russian breeding, that multiple males seems to bring more success. I'm debating on keeping two of them, depending on if I can sell the smallest male and find another couple females at a good price, but the thing around here is, male Russians are _everywhere_ on the classifieds and females are nowhere to be found... I'd rather sell my 2 extra males, reinvest that money into females to round out the group, and worry about getting another male later on. There's definitely no shortage of males in this area, but the moment you see a female hit the classifieds, it's gone in no time!


----------



## CactusVinnie (Nov 4, 2011)

Yes, I think that the guys in Uzbekistan- or God knows where else- that sell the tortoises incubate the eggs at lower temps, both from safety and commercial reasons. I always heared about so many males!
They are not quite farmers/breeders, they just round-up lots of females from the wild, inject them with oxytocin to have them lay eggs simultaneously, then release them and incubate the eggs/raising the youngs up to 10cm and sell them. Of course, not the best food- lots of protein for fast growth.
Anyway, it is better than other sources that just collect them from the wild. 
Good luck!


----------



## GBtortoises (Nov 5, 2011)

CactusVinnie said:


> Yes, I think that the guys in Uzbekistan- or God knows where else- that sell the tortoises incubate the eggs at lower temps, both from safety and commercial reasons. I always heared about so many males!
> They are not quite farmers/breeders, they just round-up lots of females from the wild, inject them with oxytocin to have them lay eggs simultaneously, then release them and incubate the eggs/raising the youngs up to 10cm and sell them. Of course, not the best food- lots of protein for fast growth.
> Anyway, it is better than other sources that just collect them from the wild.
> Good luck!



Removing eggs from gravid females is the same thing as collecting tortoises from the wild! By doing so, they are in effect, eliminating generations of tortoises. The only difference in doing it that way is that they don't have the cost of having to maintain the adults year round-a big savings when you're in a "business" like that. It's the same if you go out and pick apples from a tree in the wild rather than planting, raising and caring for a tree in your back yard to produce apples. Same end result, alot less cost and work.

So far the only proof of "farms" in Eastern Europe have all turned out to be exactly as you described above. Those aren't farms, they are collection facilities. I grew up on a farm. Real farms, regardless of the animal or plant that you're talking about, maintain their stock in good quality conditions year round in order to generate a consistent crop or product. Not collect from the wild, extract the product and then release back the "donor" back into the wild.


----------



## grogansilver (Nov 5, 2011)

(they just round-up lots of females from the wild, inject them with oxytocin to have them lay eggs simultaneously.)
"what"? I'm using a tape recorder to Breed these guys and how come nobody's until now has come to fail to mention this oxytocin exists!!! where do i get it?


----------



## Floof (Nov 5, 2011)

grogansilver, oxytocin just induces egg laying. The females they collect are already gravid... Oxytocin is hardly a breeding aid, unless you have an eggbound animal. 

Ugh. I'm with GB. Taking eggs may be easily as bad as collecting from the wild.. So much for the next generation of breeders!! 

Gah... And an example of what I was saying about males being SO plentiful, but females non-existant around here... A good-sized female (and her 10 gallon tank, ugh) came up on the local classifieds earlier this week (at $80 for the whole deal--pretty good price!). I emailed an hour after the ad was posted up, never got an answer, and it's already been marked "Sold" just a couple days later. Then at the same time there was one just labelled "Female" that was gone within a couple days, too... But there's still around 4 male russians still up waiting to be sold--including my two extras who've been up for about 2 weeks now with no bites. sigh... It's insane the difference just the sex of your tortoise can make, when you're trying to sell.


----------



## grogansilver (Nov 5, 2011)

Floof said:


> grogansilver, oxytocin just induces egg laying. The females they collect are already gravid... Oxytocin is hardly a breeding aid, unless you have an eggbound animal.
> 
> Ugh. I'm with GB. Taking eggs may be easily as bad as collecting from the wild.. So much for the next generation of breeders!!
> 
> Gah... And an example of what I was saying about males being SO plentiful, but females non-existant around here... A good-sized female (and her 10 gallon tank, ugh) came up on the local classifieds earlier this week (at $80 for the whole deal--pretty good price!). I emailed an hour after the ad was posted up, never got an answer, and it's already been marked "Sold" just a couple days later. Then at the same time there was one just labelled "Female" that was gone within a couple days, too... But there's still around 4 male russians still up waiting to be sold--including my two extras who've been up for about 2 weeks now with no bites. sigh... It's insane the difference just the sex of your tortoise can make, when you're trying to sell.


Floof i have something nice right now in the trade and bart area you interested it a beauty ill do better on the price take a look! by the way i made a mistake with this posting! sorry but the other thing i mentioned is real look!


----------



## ForestExotics (Nov 10, 2011)

GBtortoises said:


> At the current rate of importation wild Russian tortoises probably only have two avenues to take-population depletion to the point of threatened existance of the species or human intervention in a positive manner. By that I mean regulating their collection and importation. It's doubtful that their collection will be regulated at their source. People in those areas have more important things to worry about and for some, collecting tortoises is an income that feeds their family. I hate to say it and would hate to have it come to this point but if the U.S. were to ban their importation into our country it would eventually help the wild populations. Several thousand Russians are imported into the U.S. alone each year. All of those are between 4-5". Importers try to skirt the 4" mark as much as possible in order to ship more tortoises in the same crate. By collecting and shipping only one size you are essentially removing an entire generation from the wild. They are shipped in such large numbers, so cheaply that they have replaced the green iguana and Red Ear Slider as the pet shop "staple" reptile. Indicated very prominately by them being sold in large chains like Petco and PetSmart.



So true!


----------

