# Two tortoises living together??



## Spiceyk (Aug 30, 2022)

So I know tortoises are solitary.. but two of the baby tortoises are inseparable and they are both female. Is it possible to keep them in one house if they have separate sleeping tanks and basking areas but have a common area to be together occasionally? Or am I seeing too much into them doing everything together?


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## mools (Aug 30, 2022)

I'm no expert but from what I've gathered on this website is that, a pair shouldn't be kept together. It is possible for two females to live together BUT, one tortoise can become dominant and bullying the other over resources which can lead to the other tortoise to have slowed growth. I think both become stressed from having to share and the one bullied even more so from not being able to leave the territory.

Some links I've received from the people here.
Number 9.





Beginner Mistakes


To comment on Tom's article, go here: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-split-Beginner-Mistakes#axzz1tG8s05M5 Over the years many of us, myself included, have made many of these mistakes, and we have certainly seen them made many times by others. With springtime upon us and many new...




tortoiseforum.org










Signs of bullying in young tortoises


'Following' is a form of "mad dogging". Cuddling and sleeping in the same area is a form of trying to crowd the other out of the territory. Does one or both sit on the food? That's another one. Outward, obvious hostility like biting, ramming, or flipping seldom happens with juveniles. The...




tortoiseforum.org










Why not to keep 2 tortoises together - a lesson learned the hard way


This is a copy/paste of an article I wrote on my blog last year. I've seen several new keepers ask the question of whether they should get a 'friend' for their tortoise, and so rather than keeping on linking to my blog (which feels kinda self-promoting, which is not my intent), I am creating a...




tortoiseforum.org


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## Spiceyk (Aug 30, 2022)

mools said:


> I'm no expert but from what I've gathered on this website is that, a pair shouldn't be kept together. It is possible for two females to live together BUT, one tortoise can become dominant and bullying the other over resources which can lead to the other tortoise to have slowed growth. I think both become stressed from having to share and the one bullied even more so from not being able to leave the territory.
> 
> Some links I've received from the people here.
> Number 9.
> ...





mools said:


> I'm no expert but from what I've gathered on this website is that, a pair shouldn't be kept together. It is possible for two females to live together BUT, one tortoise can become dominant and bullying the other over resources which can lead to the other tortoise to have slowed growth. I think both become stressed from having to share and the one bullied even more so from not being able to leave the territory.
> 
> Some links I've received from the people here.
> Number 9.
> ...





mools said:


> I'm no expert but from what I've gathered on this website is that, a pair shouldn't be kept together. It is possible for two females to live together BUT, one tortoise can become dominant and bullying the other over resources which can lead to the other tortoise to have slowed growth. I think both become stressed from having to share and the one bullied even more so from not being able to leave the territory.
> 
> Some links I've received from the people here.
> Number 9.
> ...


Thanks!! I've been trying to do more research since I have rescued some babies and am rehoming them. I will read those


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## Lyn W (Aug 31, 2022)

When you say 'inseparable' are they close together all the time? If so that is the dominant tort trying to intimidate the other out of his space and it can start at a young age - doesn't matter if same sex, male and female or siblings.

People often mistake behaviours like following nudging mounting and close contact as a sign of affection but it is the start of bullying behaviour and will eventually become much more aggressive.

They are solitary and territorial creatures so set them up in their own enclosures which will be less stressful for both and they will be happier and healthier. Groups of torts works better if the gender mix is right e.g one male with several females - and if you have a huge space for them to spread out and avoid each other. 

Mools has just learned this and the links she has passed on to you will explain more.

What species are they?


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## wellington (Aug 31, 2022)

You thinking they are inseparable is you putting human feelings and emotions on a tortoise. Tortoises don't have those kinds of emotions etc. 
Keeping human emotions out and doing what's right for the tortoises is what has to be done!
Now the other part you mentioned. You rescued babies and are rehoming them? Are they from one breeder? If not are you quarantining them from others you have taken in? Are they one species? Species should not be mixed.


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## SinLA (Aug 31, 2022)

Spiceyk said:


> So I know tortoises are solitary.. but two of the baby tortoises are inseparable and they are both female. Is it possible to keep them in one house if they have separate sleeping tanks and basking areas but have a common area to be together occasionally? Or am I seeing too much into them doing everything together?


How old are they? babies look female until they mature. What you call “inseparable” could be bullying, just like with dogs you have to “learn” their behavior language to know what it means. You can’t assume that something you see with dogs or cats (being inseparable) means the same thing in torts…


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## Tom (Aug 31, 2022)

Spiceyk said:


> So I know tortoises are solitary.. but two of the baby tortoises are inseparable and they are both female. Is it possible to keep them in one house if they have separate sleeping tanks and basking areas but have a common area to be together occasionally? Or am I seeing too much into them doing everything together?


I agree with everyone else's assessment here.
1. You can't sex babies, and all of them look female until the adult hormones get flowing and the secondary sexual characteristics begin showing up.
2. They do not want or need company. Other tortoises are not seen as friends or companions. They are seen as competitors for limited resources, intruders, and invaders.
3. The behavior you describe is tortoise aggression. One tortoise trying to crowd and intimidate the other tortoise out of its territory. The chronic stress is bad for both of them.

You posted this in the Gopherus section and I see you are in CA, so these are desert tortoises? If yes, please realize that almost all of the care info you find for them is wrong and will lead to their death eventually. Here is the correct care info:





The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise


I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...




tortoiseforum.org





You should be soaking daily, and the main foods should be weeds, leaves and flowers of the right types. They should be getting soaked daily. They also need a safe damp substrate and a humid hide box. No soil and no sand. They should be housed mostly indoors, as outside all day is NOT good for babies. Outside full time is GREAT for adults and larger juveniles, but not babies.

Questions are welcome.


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## Spiceyk (Aug 31, 2022)

Lyn W said:


> When you say 'inseparable' are they close together all the time? If so that is the dominant tort trying to intimidate the other out of his space and it can start at a young age - doesn't matter if same sex, male and female or siblings.
> 
> People often mistake behaviours like following nudging mounting and close contact as a sign of affection but it is the start of bullying behaviour and will eventually become much more aggressive.
> 
> ...


They are desert tortoises. So at the moment, I have 4 hatchlings in the same enclosure. They are about a week old. They sleep by eachother, they wake up together, they are always in the same area together. However, I definitely see that I am associating these more like dog behaviors rather than tortoise. 
To the people that I am rehoming them to, I am making sure they will only have 1 tortoise and I am screening them to ensure that they go to people who know what they are doing.
I have a one year old tortoise from last years batch. I do plan on keeping one of the new babies to have two tortoises total. Well, I should say, I would like advice on whether or not I should keep them.. 
They will both be females. So I have two separate reptile enclosures I believe over 50 gallons for them to sleep in at night. I do not plan on having them sleep or eat together. I also have two very large outdoor set ups (with floors so they cant dig under) for them to bask in the sun without being in any danger. I will say that the times I plan on having them together would be when I let them on my living room floor for maybe an hour or two max. Would these conditions suffice to have two tortoises? Is there anything else I should be doing


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## Spiceyk (Aug 31, 2022)

wellington said:


> You thinking they are inseparable is you putting human feelings and emotions on a tortoise. Tortoises don't have those kinds of emotions etc.
> Keeping human emotions out and doing what's right for the tortoises is what has to be done!
> Now the other part you mentioned. You rescued babies and are rehoming them? Are they from one breeder? If not are you quarantining them from others you have taken in? Are they one species? Species should not be mixed.


Hello, thank you for the reply.. 
They are siblings from the same batch. I am in no way a rescue or have other breeds of tortoises. I was just asked to take them and rehome them. I have been doing a lot of research and I believe that I have a good setup and am doing a good job at taking care of them. I realize that I did not properly assess the behaviors they were exhibiting. I was associating them with cats or dogs. I will not do that again, and I appreciate everyone that is commenting and forwarding links with tips.


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## Spiceyk (Aug 31, 2022)

Tom said:


> I agree with everyone else's assessment here.
> 1. You can't sex babies, and all of them look female until the adult hormones get flowing and the secondary sexual characteristics begin showing up.
> 2. They do not want or need company. Other tortoises are not seen as friends or companions. They are seen as competitors for limited resources, intruders, and invaders.
> 3. The behavior you describe is tortoise aggression. One tortoise trying to crowd and intimidate the other tortoise out of its territory. The chronic stress is bad for both of them.
> ...


Thank you for the reply! I appreciate all the help and tips. I realize that I have assessed their behaviors wrong and will correct that! I was associating it more with dog or cat behavior but I see how I was wrong. I have been doing those things for them. My vet had told me that they should not be outdoors if it is above 95 degrees for their first 3 years. I plan on only having them outside for natural sunlight when temperatures are sufficient. I also built a large outdoor enclosure for my tortoise when it is outdoors and have a separate side for the babies that I will join with the original one after they have been rehomed.

Yes, I have noticed some of the information on websites are way off so I am so glad I found this site. I have been looking through as many posts as I can to gain more information.

I did have a question regarding the runt of the litter. I have not seen it eat and it sits in its water bowl for large portions of time. I change it out roughly 4-5 times a day to prevent infection.. and she looks 100x better than she did last week but I still have not seen her eat. Someone had said to mix human carrot or squash into the water and let her soak for 15-20 minutes in it. Would this help? Or is that information wrong? Any advice helps!


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## Spiceyk (Aug 31, 2022)

SinLA said:


> How old are they? babies look female until they mature. What you call “inseparable” could be bullying, just like with dogs you have to “learn” their behavior language to know what it means. You can’t assume that something you see with dogs or cats (being inseparable) means the same thing in torts…


thank you for the response. I realize that I assessed their behaviors wrong and will correct it.


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## Tom (Aug 31, 2022)

Spiceyk said:


> Thank you for the reply! I appreciate all the help and tips. I realize that I have assessed their behaviors wrong and will correct that! I was associating it more with dog or cat behavior but I see how I was wrong. I have been doing those things for them. My vet had told me that they should not be outdoors if it is above 95 degrees for their first 3 years. I plan on only having them outside for natural sunlight when temperatures are sufficient. I also built a large outdoor enclosure for my tortoise when it is outdoors and have a separate side for the babies that I will join with the original one after they have been rehomed.
> 
> Yes, I have noticed some of the information on websites are way off so I am so glad I found this site. I have been looking through as many posts as I can to gain more information.
> 
> I did have a question regarding the runt of the litter. I have not seen it eat and it sits in its water bowl for large portions of time. I change it out roughly 4-5 times a day to prevent infection.. and she looks 100x better than she did last week but I still have not seen her eat. Someone had said to mix human carrot or squash into the water and let her soak for 15-20 minutes in it. Would this help? Or is that information wrong? Any advice helps!


Sometimes the carrot baby for soaks do give a "boost" to a small tortoise that isn't doing so well. Its worth a try, and will do no harm.

That is pretty good temperature advice from the vet, especially in regards to babies. Here is more info to consider: While these guys come from the desert with temps from 10F - 110F in the course of a year, most of their lives are spent underground avoiding the temperature extremes top side. In winter, the ground temp is right around 50 all day and all night. This is when they brumate, and it doesn't change if there is a 10 degree freezing night, or one of those 90 degree January days that we get sometimes. Likewise in summer, the ground temp is 80 all day and all night. Given all of that info, I like them to have a cooler underground retreat for summer weather for all ages and sizes. Its pretty easy to dig a hole, cover it with wood, and pile lots of dirt on top. I cover these in winter when temps are milder and we get our rains.


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## Spiceyk (Aug 31, 2022)

Tom said:


> Sometimes the carrot baby for soaks do give a "boost" to a small tortoise that isn't doing so well. Its worth a try, and will do no harm.
> 
> That is pretty good temperature advice from the vet, especially in regards to babies. Here is more info to consider: While these guys come from the desert with temps from 10F - 110F in the course of a year, most of their lives are spent underground avoiding the temperature extremes top side. In winter, the ground temp is right around 50 all day and all night. This is when they brumate, and it doesn't change if there is a 10 degree freezing night, or one of those 90 degree January days that we get sometimes. Likewise in summer, the ground temp is 80 all day and all night. Given all of that info, I like them to have a cooler underground retreat for summer weather for all ages and sizes. Its pretty easy to dig a hole, cover it with wood, and pile lots of dirt on top. I cover these in winter when temps are milder and we get our rains.


Okay thank you for the advice! I will do the underground retreat for mine as well. I looked through your other post that you linked and I was happy to see that I have been doing a lot of that and my outdoor enclosure looks very similar. Anything extra I saw on your post I will be utilizing as well. Thank you for your help


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## bioteach (Aug 31, 2022)

Spiceyk said:


> So I know tortoises are solitary.. but two of the baby tortoises are inseparable and they are both female. Is it possible to keep them in one house if they have separate sleeping tanks and basking areas but have a common area to be together occasionally? Or am I seeing too much into them doing everything together?


Hello,
As long as they are both female it should not be a problem. The Desert Botanical Gardens here in Phoenix have two females Desert Tortoises (Penny and Poppy) that live in the same enclosure. The enclosure is roomy and they seem to get along just fine. Two males or one of each is not recommended, but females are not as aggressive. As long as they have enough room to roam independently if they wish to do so it should be OK.


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## wellington (Aug 31, 2022)

Spiceyk said:


> They are desert tortoises. So at the moment, I have 4 hatchlings in the same enclosure. They are about a week old. They sleep by eachother, they wake up together, they are always in the same area together. However, I definitely see that I am associating these more like dog behaviors rather than tortoise.
> To the people that I am rehoming them to, I am making sure they will only have 1 tortoise and I am screening them to ensure that they go to people who know what they are doing.
> I have a one year old tortoise from last years batch. I do plan on keeping one of the new babies to have two tortoises total. Well, I should say, I would like advice on whether or not I should keep them..
> They will both be females. So I have two separate reptile enclosures I believe over 50 gallons for them to sleep in at night. I do not plan on having them sleep or eat together. I also have two very large outdoor set ups (with floors so they cant dig under) for them to bask in the sun without being in any danger. I will say that the times I plan on having them together would be when I let them on my living room floor for maybe an hour or two max. Would these conditions suffice to have two tortoises? Is there anything else I should be doing


You would have to keep one of the babies for about 3 to 5 years to know for sure if it's a female. Letting them roam your house is very bad and dangerous for them, don't do that. Set up a proper enclosure for any inside time one for each if you can't give them a room in your house. 
The carrot soaks can possibly help the runt and also add piediyte to the soak water too. You should also house the runt by itself until it starts to act 100% normal.


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## Spiceyk (Aug 31, 2022)

wellington said:


> You would have to keep one of the babies for about 3 to 5 years to know for sure if it's a female. Letting them roam your house is very bad and dangerous for them, don't do that. Set up a proper enclosure for any inside time one for each if you can't give them a room in your house.
> The carrot soaks can possibly help the runt and also add piediyte to the soak water too. You should also house the runt by itself until it starts to act 100% normal.


What is dangerous about letting one roam my living room? We do not use any chemicals or pesticides on the floor. I also make sure the temperature in my house is adequate at that time. My fridge, stove, etc are all blocked off underneath so they cannot crawl under. My tortoise has been tested for parasites, giardia, and salmonella. She is negative for anything that could harm a human. I do not have any other pets or children. They have proper separate enclosures. They will each have one indoor and one outdoor. My tortoise loves to roam around whether it's inside or outside. I honestly cannot think of a reason why letting them walk around in my living room would be dangerous if I take the proper precautions. 

I am also not saying that I let them out all day, but I feel like if its too hot outside and she wants to get out of her enclosure then it's not a bad thing to give her an entire living room floor to walk around on.


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## wellington (Aug 31, 2022)

Spiceyk said:


> What is dangerous about letting one roam my living room? We do not use any chemicals or pesticides on the floor. I also make sure the temperature in my house is adequate at that time. My fridge, stove, etc are all blocked off underneath so they cannot crawl under. My tortoise has been tested for parasites, giardia, and salmonella. She is negative for anything that could harm a human. I do not have any other pets or children. They have proper separate enclosures. They will each have one indoor and one outdoor. My tortoise loves to roam around whether it's inside or outside. I honestly cannot think of a reason why letting them walk around in my living room would be dangerous if I take the proper precautions.
> 
> I am also not saying that I let them out all day, but I feel like if its too hot outside and she wants to get out of her enclosure then it's not a bad thing to give her an entire living room floor to walk around on.


Take a search of the forum. Accidents happen and they have been killed unintentionally by the same person that says they watch them 100%. 
It's your tortoises life I'm worried about. You screw up the tortoise pays for it.


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## Spiceyk (Aug 31, 2022)

bioteach said:


> Hello,
> As long as they are both female it should not be a problem. The Desert Botanical Gardens here in Phoenix have two females Desert Tortoises (Penny and Poppy) that live in the same enclosure. The enclosure is roomy and they seem to get along just fine. Two males or one of each is not recommended, but females are not as aggressive. As long as they have enough room to roam independently if they wish to do so it should be OK.


Thank you for the feedback and for the personal experience! I appreciate it


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## Tom (Aug 31, 2022)

bioteach said:


> Hello,
> As long as they are both female it should not be a problem. The Desert Botanical Gardens here in Phoenix have two females Desert Tortoises (Penny and Poppy) that live in the same enclosure. The enclosure is roomy and they seem to get along just fine. Two males or one of each is not recommended, but females are not as aggressive. As long as they have enough room to roam independently if they wish to do so it should be OK.


I don't agree that this is not a problem or that they get along just fine. This is a very territorial species, and they don't like sharing space. They have no choice but to deal with it, and their survival is not an indicator that it is okay. Both would be better off in separate enclosures, and recommending this practice to others is not good tortoise advice.


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## Tom (Aug 31, 2022)

Spiceyk said:


> What is dangerous about letting one roam my living room?


Everyone thinks that this is safe, right up to the moment when they finally realize it isn't, and then it is too late. I've seen many things in my personal life, and we've had dozens of examples here on the forum over the years. We've seen X-rays with little metal charms, coins, 2 inch sewing needles, pebbles, and there have been lots of things that don't show up on x ray like hair, dust bunnies, plastic bags, etc... We've seen tortoise heads squished on the hinge side of a door, stepped on or kicked tortoises with broken legs, and escapees because someone left a door open. One of these went out the front door, parked under the car tire in the driveway and got run over. Its also too cold on the floor, and slick floor cause them to have played leg syndrome, with carpeted floors can cause fibers to wrap around their legs and slowly cut the circulation off. Fumes and residues from cleaning products... The list is endless. We try really hard to warn everyone so people don't have to learn this lesson the hard way. It just isn't safe and can't be made safe. Tortoises belong in tortoise enclosures. Never loose on the floor.


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## TammyJ (Sep 1, 2022)

Spiceyk said:


> So I know tortoises are solitary.. but two of the baby tortoises are inseparable and they are both female. Is it possible to keep them in one house if they have separate sleeping tanks and basking areas but have a common area to be together occasionally? Or am I seeing too much into them doing everything together?


When you say that two of them are "inseparable" , do you mean conjoined twins? Please post some pictures!


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