# Spring Mix



## Seiryu (Jul 11, 2009)

So I was finally able to find the spring mix in a few grocery stores nearby. They had 2 different kinds, with different ingrediants.

Spring Mix 1 (Dole company): Baby Lettuces, Greens, Endive, Raddichio.

I know all this stuff is good.

Spring Mix 2 (Meijer brand): Baby Lettuces, red and green Romaine, red and green Oak Leaf, Loolorosa, Tango, Frisee, Radicchio, Mizuna, Tat Soi, and Red Chard.

I am pretty sure Frisee, romaine, baby lettuce, radicchio out of this one are ok. But havn't really seen the others.

Are any on "Spring Mix 2" NOT ok? If all are OK then it seems like I have a pretty good variety to start with.


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## Crazy1 (Jul 11, 2009)

Both you have listed are fine.
I think the only thing I have found in spring mix that I prefer not to feed (especially young torts) is spinach which I just pic out. Some brands vary the ingredients depending on the time of year.


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## Seiryu (Jul 11, 2009)

Crazy1 said:


> Both you have listed are fine.
> I think the only thing I have found in spring mix that I prefer not to feed (especially young torts) is spinach which I just pic out. Some brands vary the ingredients depending on the time of year.



Thanks. Well hopefully next week i'll have my little one. Just got off the phone with him. I get a check on tuesday and I should have my tort by wednesday, very excited .


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## Laura (Jul 11, 2009)

im not sure I'd know what was spinich! but i do find they do vary thoughtout the year.


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 11, 2009)

The only thing you need to look for to pick out is spinach (look at a bag of spinach and see what it looks like to make sure). Sometimes they won't list all the ingredients exactly so you still need to look out for it. If chard was a very large part of the mix I wouldn't feed it as it's high in oxalic acid, but small amounts are ok (my tort won't even eat it). But besides the spinach possibility any spring mix any of us here has ever seen is just fine. The more variety the better. I even switch up the brands for more variety. I also try to get the ones that aren't just romaine (baby lettuce typically) for more nutrition, as mush as the little one loves romaine.

Some stores sell a bulk spring mix by the pound that is nice as you can buy it fresh in smaller quantities (for a hatchling). Spring mix definitely gets eaten in our house vs. some of the other greens (like mustard greens) though!


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## Seiryu (Jul 11, 2009)

tortoisenerd said:


> The only thing you need to look for to pick out is spinach (look at a bag of spinach and see what it looks like to make sure). Sometimes they won't list all the ingredients exactly so you still need to look out for it. If chard was a very large part of the mix I wouldn't feed it as it's high in oxalic acid, but small amounts are ok (my tort won't even eat it). But besides the spinach possibility any spring mix any of us here has ever seen is just fine. The more variety the better. I even switch up the brands for more variety. I also try to get the ones that aren't just romaine (baby lettuce typically) for more nutrition, as mush as the little one loves romaine.
> 
> Some stores sell a bulk spring mix by the pound that is nice as you can buy it fresh in smaller quantities (for a hatchling). Spring mix definitely gets eaten in our house vs. some of the other greens (like mustard greens) though!



Thanks! Ya I am pretty sure they list ingrediants in terms of quantity right? The red chard was listed last. I actually went and bought some myself today and I am probably going to look through and seperate everything lol to see how much of each there actually is.

It was about $1.50 for what I imagine is going to be wayy more than the little one will eat before it goes bad.


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 11, 2009)

For spring mix they usually say the ingredients may vary, which can mean that it may not be listed in quantity in this case. The chard is the stuff that has the red vein looking parts. Pretty identifiable. It will vary wildly bag to bag and brand to brand.

I only get the bag to last about 10 days if I'm lucky (I usually keep it in a tupperware and keep it dry with fresh paper towels to extend the life a little). We've learned to eat more salad as yes otherwise it will go bad before a hatchling will eat it all.

$1.50 is great! I pay a minimum of $2 for a bag up to $4 if I don't shop around. If you think about it, even if you toss some out, you're not paying much per week/month to feed the tort. The price will stay about the same as the tort grows as it will eat more before it goes bad.

Are you feeding anything in addition to the spring mix?


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## Seiryu (Jul 11, 2009)

tortoisenerd said:


> Are you feeding anything in addition to the spring mix?



Yes, I planned to add clover, dandelion, day lillies (he better like those, I have hundreds growing lol), plantain weed, collard/turnip greens and crab and quack grass if he'll eat it. At least for now, until I get everything growing.

Since the spring mix has endive, raddichio, romaine, and a few other lettuces I dont need to buy those seperately.


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 12, 2009)

Great! Just make sure your yard or source for the greens is organic.


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## Crazy1 (Jul 12, 2009)

Rob, I just love it when people do their homework and you have done yours. Your diet sounds great. I get the spring mix at Costco it is organic varies by season and pretty inexpensive. It does not seem to keep long but with 17 torts-oops 16 it goes fast and I love salads too. But I do supplement with yard greens (as I call them) dandelion, grape leaves, mulberry leaves daylillies, roses, squash blossoms and sunflowers plus lots of other stuff I grow. 
Laura spinach is pretty easy to ID its the thick heavy dark green rounded leaf.


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## Madkins007 (Jul 12, 2009)

Just for what it is worth- most Spring Mixes tend to average out at less than a 1.5:1 calcium to phosphorous ratio (Ca: P). A 2:1 ratio or higher is our goal, and the only things in the spring mixes you listed that is better than 1.3:1 is the Endive at 1.86:1.

Romaine is often considered really good, which is odd since its Ca: P is 1.1:1- not much better than Iceberg lettuce at 0.95:1. In fact, plain greenleaf or redleaf lettuce is better than Romaine with a 1.24:1 ratio.

As for spinach- the occasional spinach leaf is not going to cause any real problems. Spinach is high in iron and other nutrients. It is also a little high in oxalic acid. Oxalic acid binds with calcium to make calcium oxalate crystals. Small amounts of the crystals with adequate water actually seem to help clean out the system. If there is inadequate water and too much of the crystal, it can help contribute to bladder stones. Oh- and vitamin A helps prevent the crystal formation, and spinach is high in vitamin A.

I would recommend that you add a pinch or light dusting of calcium when you use Spring Mixes. Otherwise, they are fine!


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## Seiryu (Jul 13, 2009)

Madkins007 said:


> Just for what it is worth- most Spring Mixes tend to average out at less than a 1.5:1 calcium to phosphorous ratio (Ca: P). A 2:1 ratio or higher is our goal, and the only things in the spring mixes you listed that is better than 1.3:1 is the Endive at 1.86:1.
> 
> Romaine is often considered really good, which is odd since its Ca: P is 1.1:1- not much better than Iceberg lettuce at 0.95:1. In fact, plain greenleaf or redleaf lettuce is better than Romaine with a 1.24:1 ratio.
> 
> ...



Thanks, is there a specific website that lists a lot of these ratio's? And yes, I bought some calcium carbonate to add, probably a little every feeding, especially for a baby.


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 13, 2009)

http://www.turtlestuff.com/avoidthese.html
http://www.geocities.com/kyryah/tort2.html
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

For the human greens you can find them very easily, even typing "X nutritional information" in Google and the vitamins will be listed for the food. The weeds and others are very tricky to find and I haven't had much if any luck. I assume ost any weed is better than lettuce, and you only have to watch out for those high in things such as oxalic acid. Variety seems to be key, and not having a lot of the low nutrition greens fed in a row.

I like to get the spring mix all the time, plus one or two other rotated greens. We'll eat some of them too in our family.


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## Madkins007 (Jul 15, 2009)

My 'go to' site for human foods is http://www.elook.org/nutrition/

Weed data can often be found as a 'percent of dry matter' at sites specializing in domesticated animal husbandry, but can certainly be annoying to dig out. 

I've made up some charts for my own use for greens, grasses, proteins, fruits, and veggies that I will share if anyone wants a copy, or would be happy to post somewhere if it will help.


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 16, 2009)

I'm sure lots of us would love that Madkins!


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## auerdoan (Jul 19, 2009)

tortoisenerd said:


> http://www.turtlestuff.com/avoidthese.html
> http://www.geocities.com/kyryah/tort2.html
> http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
> 
> ...



Im not sure about the russian tort but as for the african torts, 
by looking at the web site listed above "tortstuff.com" contradics what people are recommending on this site. Specifically the spring mix.
i would be interisted in seeing a count of members here with torts of this kind-_ african_ over the age of 25 years of age. That can account the types of food fed over those years and compare that to the torts of the same age feeding more hays and grasses. Than comparing the health issues of both over the 2 and half decades.

Here is a link of were one can purchase some seeds if they would prefer to grow there own
i can not vouch for the quality of the transaction yet. But i will keep u tuned.
http://www.turtlestuff.com/shop/?shop=1&cart=494284&cat=57


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## tortoisenerd (Jul 19, 2009)

I do not think turtlestuff.com is at all recommending those foods. I think it is comparing the "good" foods to those that may have been recommended in the past (and those that some still commonly feed). That was not a recommended food list, but a list of nutritional information. I also agree there are foods on there I would not feed. That is how I interpret it. I think it shows why some foods are good and some are not, in the scientific/nutritional sense. I didn't post it as a food list but as a source for nutritional information.

I think others on this site have used that vendor, as well as carolinapetsupply, Ebay, turtlecafe, sulcatafood, etc. I have heard some good and some bad things about that site. I wouldn't recommend it from what I have heard. I have heard good things from all the others I listed (and of course there are tons more). You can also buy from vendors that are not tort-specific. Just make sure you know what you are getting and that it is safe. Sometimes the mixes marketed for torts are more expensive.

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-6964.html?highlight=turtlestuff
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-6830.html?highlight=turtlestuff
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-7471.html?highlight=turtlestuff

Of course hays and grasses are best. I know people with Russians especially just can't get the tort to eat them, no matter what they try. Hatchlings also tend to have a tough time with hay and grasses. I think the rational with the greens is that they are similar to weeds. Weeds of course are great too. Weeds and grass are typical in the wild.

I haven't heard of anyone keeping torts that long on a diet such as we currently feed. The diet for torts has really evolved recently. They used to be fed more cabbages, dog food, iceberg, etc! Eeek.


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## Millerlite (Jul 19, 2009)

Yeah grazing is the best way to go. Tortoises will graze if given the chance... they can be picky and will hold out till they get lettuce. sometimes you just have to offer them grasses, clovers, etc... till they eat it. once they eat it they will eat it over and over. Babies are a little harder to get to eat weeds and grasses. All my babies will eat weeds, but the hay thing is hard to get them on... That grassland tortoise food is pretty good for babies, some will eat it some wont though. Like i always say as long as you have a variety your good to go. Spring mix is pretty good, but i wouldnt use it as a staple, i only say that because i would say mix in other stuff with the spring mix, let them try and graze, etc.. just keep it mixed up.


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## Seiryu (Jul 19, 2009)

Millerlite said:


> Yeah grazing is the best way to go. Tortoises will graze if given the chance... they can be picky and will hold out till they get lettuce. sometimes you just have to offer them grasses, clovers, etc... till they eat it. once they eat it they will eat it over and over. Babies are a little harder to get to eat weeds and grasses. All my babies will eat weeds, but the hay thing is hard to get them on... That grassland tortoise food is pretty good for babies, some will eat it some wont though. Like i always say as long as you have a variety your good to go. Spring mix is pretty good, but i wouldnt use it as a staple, i only say that because i would say mix in other stuff with the spring mix, let them try and graze, etc.. just keep it mixed up.



Yep, I add dandelion greens, collard greens, turnip greens and white, yellow, red clovers to his spring mix. (Not all in one day, but like 1 type of green and clover a day). He loves the clover leaves and dandelion leaves. And add calcium every feeding.

So do you suggest (since he can't graze outside for now, it just rained and hasn't been very warm) to chop up some grass/hay pieces in a pile and see if he eats it? Should I try this the entire day and not give any lettuce?

I say chopped up because it doesn't seem like he can tear the hay/grass yet. And once he gets a taste for grass he sticks with it(usually)?


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## Millerlite (Jul 19, 2009)

Yeah i would try chopping it up and not chopping it up... I had a few tortoises that wouldnt eat anything if i chopped it up, then would eat anything if i kept it big leafy pieces, weird i know.. lol. But always offer them it.. i always say its pretty hard to starve a tortoise, so if you picked out a feeding day, and tried feeding it weeds, and grasses and they turn there nose and not eat.. they wont die of staving.. They just wont eat for an extra day. Also you can try little bit of lettuce and grasses on top of the lettuce.. that way when they are trying to pick out the lettuce they might get a bite of grass and like it... it can be tough to get them started and frustrating but eventually they will eat it.


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## Seiryu (Jul 19, 2009)

Millerlite said:


> Yeah i would try chopping it up and not chopping it up... I had a few tortoises that wouldnt eat anything if i chopped it up, then would eat anything if i kept it big leafy pieces, weird i know.. lol. But always offer them it.. i always say its pretty hard to starve a tortoise, so if you picked out a feeding day, and tried feeding it weeds, and grasses and they turn there nose and not eat.. they wont die of staving.. They just wont eat for an extra day. Also you can try little bit of lettuce and grasses on top of the lettuce.. that way when they are trying to pick out the lettuce they might get a bite of grass and like it... it can be tough to get them started and frustrating but eventually they will eat it.



Well I will try it tomorrow. I tried doing the slightly bigger pieces (they wern't small enough where if he got one he couldn't get it out). He could use his arms to get the piece out of his mouth. I also put it on top of a leaf of lettuce. But anytime he got a piece in his mouth, out it went  (this was the hay).

He'll be in the new enclosure tomorrow. Going to add fake plants for now. Not going to add rocks until I see him not going for the walls. And i'll just put a big pile of finer chopped grass in a pile and see what happens. If he doesn't eat any of it tomorrow, should I go back to his spring mix + greens the next day and not trry *just* grass for a few days?


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## auerdoan (Jul 19, 2009)

Thanks for addressing my comment, i like to question things. 

ive heard of storys of torts and turtles being fed cat and dog food not too long ago very surprising..
and very unfortunate for the pet 

If it wasnt for spring mix and roman greens my little tort my not be alive.
eventually with patience we will get him to eat other items

I do like how this topic is headed.
i dont think the spring mix should be the mains source of food, and a good mix with its natural habitat food should be encouraged (from were every your tort or turtle comes from)


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## Crazy1 (Jul 19, 2009)

auerdoan I really liked your comment "i dont think the spring mix should be the mains source of food, and a good mix with its natural habitat food should be encouraged (from were every your tort or turtle comes from)" 
Lots of new keepers forget that spring mix is not the only thing fed to torts. It is mixed with many different things people grow or have access too. Endive, Escarole, grape leaves, mulberry leaves, squash blossoms, etc.
And lots of new keepers forget that grazers like Leos, DT and Sullys don't eat hay or dried grasses until they are a bit older. Hatchlings and young juveniles tend to stay with broad leaf weeds. So feeding a Leo green grass that has been snipped in small pieces and sprinkled on damp broad leaf greens (so they stick) is a way for them to get use to the taste of grass. 

So Rob I would not worry much if your Leo is not eating hay at this stage or even grass. He has to grow a little yet then he will develope a taste for it.


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## Seiryu (Jul 27, 2009)

Madkins- On the website with nutritional stuff you linked, are those the GREENS or the vegetables of the certain plant? For instance, I don't see anything for Radish greens, but just radish itself.

Also, I wanted to ask. It isn't a big issue, as it's a pretty good variety but i'll ask anyways.

I have Turnip, Radish, Collard, Mustard and Dandelion greens I am growing. Well the dandelion is all over my yard, but i'm growing the others 

Now that's 5 types of greens. Which *two* should I use *2* days of the week? 

I know Mustard, Collard and Dandelion have more oxalic acid than the others. So I am thinking the Turnip and Radish. This is for a leopard tortoise of course. I tried finding the specifics on oxalic acid and other vitamins, but couldn't find everything on all 5. I don't worry _too_ much about the Calcium to Phosphorous ratio because I add calcium carbonate and this is just part of what he gets daily anyways. And all of these have a Ca: P ration of at least 2.4:1.

Any recommendations would be great.


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## Madkins007 (Jul 27, 2009)

Seiryu said:


> Madkins- On the website with nutritional stuff you linked, are those the GREENS or the vegetables of the certain plant? For instance, I don't see anything for Radish greens, but just radish itself.
> 
> Also, I wanted to ask. It isn't a big issue, as it's a pretty good variety but i'll ask anyways.
> 
> ...



Why limit to 2 kinds twice a week? if you are growing them, can't you harvest a couple leaves at a time from several of the plants without hurting the plant? (I honestly don't know- I'm not a gardener.)

Radish greens are considered good for humans, and richer in vitamin C and calcium than the bulb. I can't seem to locate things like oxalic acid levels for them, though. I also have not looked at the diet for Leopards, so have no idea what to recommend for frequency, etc.


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## Seiryu (Jul 27, 2009)

Madkins007 said:


> Why limit to 2 kinds twice a week? if you are growing them, can't you harvest a couple leaves at a time from several of the plants without hurting the plant? (I honestly don't know- I'm not a gardener.)
> 
> Radish greens are considered good for humans, and richer in vitamin C and calcium than the bulb. I can't seem to locate things like oxalic acid levels for them, though. I also have not looked at the diet for Leopards, so have no idea what to recommend for frequency, etc.



You misread my post. I asked What two greens should I feed 2 times a week. I guess I wasn't clear enough. I plan to do Mustard, Dandelion, Collard, Radish and Turnip each at least 1 time a week. That leaves 2 days. 

Which out 2 out of the 5 should be fed twice a week instead of just 1.

http://www.geocities.com/kyryah/tort2.html Lists some oxalic levels, although not all of them. People here have said Dandelion and Mustard have higher levels, same with Collard.


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## dmmj (Jul 27, 2009)

For those of you worrying about stuff going bad I just tried out those green bags, and they work great I kept produce in them for over 4 weks as a test and it did not go bad, Now I am in no way affliated with those bags so I am unbiased here. Jist thought i would mention it as it is a great way for me to strech my tort food dollar even more when i do buy that which I do not grow.


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## Madkins007 (Jul 28, 2009)

Seiryu said:


> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> > Why limit to 2 kinds twice a week? if you are growing them, can't you harvest a couple leaves at a time from several of the plants without hurting the plant? (I honestly don't know- I'm not a gardener.)
> ...



Ah, sorry for the confusion! Well- my guys dislike mustard so in my case, i would skip it. Turnip has about the best overall nutrition, so I would definitely consider it. I might also add a 'wildcard' day of things like Spring Mix, mulberry leaves, etc. 


Just FYI- you might enjoy the discussion about oxalic acid at http://growingtaste.com/oxalicacid.shtml Some of the comments and research is really interesting!


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## Seiryu (Jul 28, 2009)

Madkins007 said:


> Seiryu said:
> 
> 
> > Madkins007 said:
> ...



Thanks. This is on top of spring mix. I usually give 2-4 varietes of spring mix + one of the Greens a day. He isn't eating grasses or hays yet. And the only weeds I have an abundance of are clover and dandelion (both high in oxalic acid), so I can't feed those too regularly. I have a few unknowns, but no one has responded to those.


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## Madkins007 (Jul 28, 2009)

Seiryu said:


> Thanks. This is on top of spring mix. I usually give 2-4 varietes of spring mix + one of the Greens a day. He isn't eating grasses or hays yet. And the only weeds I have an abundance of are clover and dandelion (both high in oxalic acid), so I can't feed those too regularly. I have a few unknowns, but no one has responded to those.



Have you asked your local extension service about the unknowns? I find them really helpful.

The link about oxalic acid lists raw dandelion at 0.02g/100g of food, which would make it quite low (it appears on other lists as 'low' as well). The thing is, as the article points out, that there different ways to measure the oxalic acid content, and whether the food is cooked or uncooked. Boiled spinach rates about .97, uncooked is about .66 (still a bit high but not as bad), and one test showed parsley at 1.70(!!!) and another at 0.10- a HUGE difference. Another article discuses that plain tea's rating gets worse the longer it steeps.

Just FYI- I found a lettuce mix locally that was high in Escarole and Endive- two good Ca: P lettuces. it was labeled as 'Mediterranean Mix'. I would guess that its Ca: P ratio would be better than some of the other mixes.


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## Seiryu (Jul 28, 2009)

Madkins007 said:


> Have you asked your local extension service about the unknowns? I find them really helpful.
> 
> The link about oxalic acid lists raw dandelion at 0.02g/100g of food, which would make it quite low (it appears on other lists as 'low' as well). The thing is, as the article points out, that there different ways to measure the oxalic acid content, and whether the food is cooked or uncooked. Boiled spinach rates about .97, uncooked is about .66 (still a bit high but not as bad), and one test showed parsley at 1.70(!!!) and another at 0.10- a HUGE difference. Another article discuses that plain tea's rating gets worse the longer it steeps.
> 
> Just FYI- I found a lettuce mix locally that was high in Escarole and Endive- two good Ca: P lettuces. it was labeled as 'Mediterranean Mix'. I would guess that its Ca: P ratio would be better than some of the other mixes.



Thanks, i'll take a look at the Medi-Mix. I googled a bit today too. And most websites that listed Oxalic Acid levels were all over the place. One had dandelion at 0.02 like you said, another at 0.47 (this is raw, not cooked).

But I suppose as long as I'm not feeding it in large quantities I shouldn't have to worry.


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