# Is there a maximum time for hatchling failure syndrome to occur?



## JulieS (Nov 2, 2015)

Back in early June, my daughter brought home two hatchlings (one Sulcata, one Leopard), and thanks to the great advice available on here, they were separated very early on.

Since that time, they've received almost identical care in the way of diet, substrate, soaking, lighting, time outside, etc.... But the Sulcata seems to be very active (and interactive) and growing by leaps and bounds (probably 3x the size it was) while the Leopard doesn't seem to be very active at all, sleeps almost all the time, doesn't appear to have grown, and frankly, seems a bit "special ed" even when it comes to eating.

I keep warning my daughter that it may be "failing," but it never seems to get any worse (or better). Is there a point at which we don't have to worry about failure syndrome time-wise? Are some leopard hatchlings just naturally slow for the first year?

Thanks in advance for any help.


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## Jodie (Nov 2, 2015)

Typically they will stall at under 50 grams. They just stop growing and eventually fail. Daily soaks, warm and humid, with a good diet is all you can do.


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## Megg (Nov 2, 2015)

I'm not an expert on leopard tortoises, but I do believe they are much much slower growing than sulcatas. If you are comparing the two, it will definitely seem like the leopard baby is terribly slow-growing since sulcatas grow quite quickly and leopards do not. It is also natural for a tiny baby tortoise to want to hide (instinct to avoid predation) so I would not worry too much!!

My little redfoot hid quite a lot for the first two years, but now that she's about 6 inches she has been venturing out a lot more.


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## wellington (Nov 2, 2015)

I agree with the above, can't compare the two. As far as when you can stop worrying. Well, I have read on here, torts that was doing well from hatchling on and at six months, a year and even almost two, they stopped dong well and died. Never really knowing why. 
If you don't have any plants in the enclosures, try to add some. The cover may make the leopard more comfortable and roam more. Get some Mazuri tortoise diet and 2-3 times a week feed a couple nuggets soaked in water first. That really helped put some size on my leopard. Also, keep soaking, make sure temps, humidity, and UVB are all good. Also feed some ground up pumpkin, ground up seeds, guts and outer meat. It's a natural dewormer. Plus, pumpkin season is here and it's short.
Good luck.


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## Tom (Nov 2, 2015)

This is more of a size thing, not an age thing.

Are you weighing the babies? If not, you should. Once a week and write it down somewhere.

You can usually relax if they make it past 50-60 grams. At 100 grams, if they've been growing steadily, you can be pretty sure they don't have "Breeder Failure Syndrome".


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## JulieS (Nov 3, 2015)

Thank you all. 

I will begin weighing them weekly, Tom, (and maybe photographing them next to a reference object) to see if maybe it's the speed of the Sulcata's growth that's making the Leopard seem so small and puny.

Now to figure out our "winter" menu as our outdoor sources of mulberry, dandelion, alfalfa, hibiscus, aloe, and other stuff are about to disappear, sigh. (Thinking about buying a grow light this week and setting up a gardening station in our basement)


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## JulieS (Nov 3, 2015)

The Sulcata just after leaving its newly warmed water bowl to check out the morning's greens


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## JulieS (Nov 3, 2015)

And head on


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## Tom (Nov 3, 2015)

Man those are some nice mulberry leaves! Mine started browning and yellowing 6 weeks ago…

I would sink those bowls into the substrate for these little guys and make the rim level with the surface. Getting up and over that lip is a flipping hazard and its enough to make some tortoises not want to use their water dish.


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## JulieS (Nov 3, 2015)

The tiny Leopard, on the other hand, will just sit limply in its water bowl (which I have to re-warm every few minutes) until I intervene and pick it up to move it to some veggies under the heat lamp. It often won't even open its eyes until I move it either. :-( I've sprayed the substrate every morning since they came home in June; they've been soaked daily religiously, and we keep our house quite humid due to my Sjogren's, so I really don't know how we could have kept it any more hydrated. :-( I literally think each day that this is the end, but we just keep going on week after week like this.


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## Tom (Nov 3, 2015)

Constructive criticism here:
The substrate looks good in the sulcata enclosure, but too wet in the leopard enclosure.
That bowl is much too tall and steep for that little guy. He'd be much better served by a 4" terra cotta saucer.
Most regular leopards won't eat hay as adults. Babies will not likely have anything to do with it.

Are you using any UV? What do you use for night heat? What are you four temps for the leopard? Warm side, cool side, basking area and overnight low?


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## JulieS (Nov 3, 2015)

Tom said:


> Man those are some nice mulberry leaves! Mine started browning and yellowing 6 weeks ago…
> 
> I would sink those bowls into the substrate for these little guys and make the rim level with the surface. Getting up and over that lip is a flipping hazard and its enough to make some tortoises not want to use their water dish.



Yeah, mulberries are like the "weed" tree of Kansas LOL. They are everywhere! And since we've been so unseasonably warm here (it's supposed to be 78 today), most of the trees are still fully leafed out.

And yes, normally I try to wedge the myriad of bowls down to the glass level, but I was thinking about stripping out all the substrate today. There seems to be some sort of tiny (barely visible to the naked eye) bugs running through it which I assume hitchhiked in on the outdoor vegetation I bring in each day and are loving all the moisture.


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## Tom (Nov 3, 2015)

JulieS said:


> Yeah, mulberries are like the "weed" tree of Kansas LOL. They are everywhere! And since we've been so unseasonably warm here (it's supposed to be 78 today), most of the trees are still fully leafed out.
> 
> And yes, normally I try to wedge the myriad of bowls down to the glass level, but I was thinking about stripping out all the substrate today. There seems to be some sort of tiny (barely visible to the naked eye) bugs running through it which I assume hitchhiked in on the outdoor vegetation I bring in each day and are loving all the moisture.



Those little bugs are one of several species of substrate flies. They come from the surrounding environment and are harmless detrivores. As long as you provide them with a warm damp place to live and breed, they will always be there. They only way to keep them at bay is to boil, bake, freeze, or replace your substrate every two weeks or so. I just ignore them and so do my tortoises.


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## crimson_lotus (Nov 3, 2015)

What lights are you using?


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## JulieS (Nov 3, 2015)

The only UV fixture at the moment is Zilla's Slimline Desert Fixture with the 50 UVB T8 fluorescent bulb since we turned off the CFL UVB bulb in the main dual-lamp fixture after reading here that it could damage their eyes (but they were going outside on a daily basis until about 2 weeks ago as well). I want to entirely re-do the lighting/hood system over the 125-gallon though since right now it looks like a mad scientist's experiment with wires and cardboard everywhere. (Does anyone have a suggestion for an all-in-one unit for a terrarium that size?) 

I took the Leopard's shot probably only a minute after spraying his substrate, so about 10 minutes after that, it would have looked like the Sulcata's moisture-wise. And I've never seen either of them sample the hay (some things I just offer in the hope that one day they'll try them . . . sort of like my children). ;-) The only foods the Leopard is much interested in are the mulberry leaves, dandelions, berries (which I give rarely), flowers, and occasionally the mixed salad greens (spinach, kale, etc...). It will eat briefly though, and then fall asleep in the food. The Sulcata, on the other hand, will try almost anything (except the hay) and runs around a lot in between cat naps.

Admittedly, I've never tipped the tank up since set-up to remove the large adhesive heat pad that's underneath it and on 24/7 (even though I learned from what I read here that heat from below sort of interferes with their ability to burrow to get cooler . . . I kind of figured they'd learn where the cooler areas of glass were if they felt too warm). So if you think that might be a factor in the Leopard's failure-to-thrive, then I can probably con my husband into lifting it up for me to remove.

The farthest "cool" ends of the tank run about 78 degrees on top of the substrate while directly under the primary basking lamp can get close to 100 degrees. (I had my husband bring me home one of those infrared temperature sensor guns that someone recommended back in June.) By morning when I lift up the top and turn the lights back on, things have cooled to about the mid-70s by the end of the night. But I do need to purchase some sort of heating element for the rapidly approaching winter as our house will be cooler soon once this unusual 78-degree November weather leaves. 

Thanks for the help!


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## Tom (Nov 3, 2015)

Your leopard might still be suffering from the effects of the cfl eye burns. It affects different tortoises differently and different bulbs have differing effect too. Some aren't as bad as others.
Night temps should not be dropping below 80, especially with dampness, especially with babies, and especially with one that seems compromised.

Night temps are best maintained by a CHE (ceramic heating element) hooked up to a thermostat.

Rather than ask a million more questions and go back and forth, I'll just say that this is how I think they should be set up: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
Maybe give that another read through and see where your set up differs.

This might help with a few things too:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/


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## Neal (Nov 3, 2015)

Would you be able to keep the temperatures up a little higher? I would recommend somewhere around 90 degrees (give or take a couple degrees) until he shows signs of improvement. Keeping him at that temperature around the clock will encourage activity and feeding. 

Mulberry's are very good for him. I would recommend adding some soaked Mazuri and spreading it over the food. Mazuri is a good food choice for increasing weight.


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## JulieS (Nov 3, 2015)

I definitely want to add the CHE as soon as possible and will order one today if I can figure out which fixture to go with (our weather is bound to shift soon).

The original CFL UVB bulb that the reptile store sold us was only on for about a day-and-a-half before we turned it off in June after learning on here what it could do. Would it have caused eye damage that quickly?

I have had the Mazuri since the start, but they haven't seemed too thrilled with it. But then again, I haven't tried spreading it over their other food either. So you soak it and then spread a damp crumble over leaves/flowers?


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## Neal (Nov 3, 2015)

With a hatchling that small I would take a single nugget and soak it in a small amount of water until the nugget absorbs all the water. I like it to have it at the point where it's not slimy, but wet enough to break apart easily...maybe uncooked cookie dough is a (rough) comparison. If he eats whole leafs of mulberry, just stick a few pieces of mazuri on different parts of the leaf, then as he eats the leaf some of the Mazuri will get in his mouth as he bites at it. Or chop up the leaf into little pieces and mix some of the Mazuri nugget in with that.


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