# Crow Heading Into Burrow!!



## orv (Apr 18, 2018)

This evening just before sunset, my wife looked out of the kitchen window, and behold: a big black, nasty old crow entering our CDTs burrow. My first reaction was "where's my shotgun" (oops . . . I don't have a gun). I dashed out into the tortoise yard and THAT crow flew off. I've never wittnesed this before, but do these crows pose a threat? The burrow is roughly 7ft long by 3 and a half ft deep. I couldn't see any of the tortoises, but I know that at times they rest near the entrance. Could a crow pose a threat? Will this aforementioned big, black, nasty old crow be back? I know that there are plenty of crows in the Mojave Desert where CDTs are from . . . what hazard do they present adult tortoises? I know that they eat young tortoises, but will then be a threat to my adults? Should I purchase a shotgun? Geesh. . . I'm ticked!!


----------



## Tom (Apr 18, 2018)

Well everyone should have a shotgun, and take a class on how to handle it properly. That part should be obvious. The Remington 870 is the benchmark, but I don't like the position of the safety. I much prefer the Mossberg 590 and its ambidextrous safety.

I've never heard of a crow posing any threat to an adult CDT. They will certainly eat any babies they can get their beak on. The crows all have babies right now and are in a desperate search for enough food to feed their ever growing bottomless pit babies. They go from 20 gram babies to the same size or bigger than their parents in 12 weeks and grow a full set of feathers during that time too. The protein and nutritional requirements are astounding!


----------



## orv (Apr 18, 2018)

Aa usual, thanks to you, Tom. You've helped so that I'll sleep vetter tonight. That old crow sure was suspicious. I've no love for those too smart for their own good thieves.


----------



## Tom (Apr 18, 2018)

orv said:


> Aa usual, thanks to you, Tom. You've helped so that I'll sleep vetter tonight. That old crow sure was suspicious. I've no love for those too smart for their own good thieves.


Its a love/hate thing for me. I respect and admire the intelligence, flight capability and ability to survive of all the corvids. Some people believe them to be the smartest animals on the planet. If they aren't the smartest, they are certainly near the top of the list.

On the other hand, they are seriously over populated due to their ability to thrive by living on the coat tails of human societies, and the damage they do is unfathomable. They are literally wiping out the desert tortoise in Mojave. Saw a presentation on it at my falconry meet in January.

So while I truly love and admire them, there are far too many and they are far too destructive and their numbers need to be controlled.


----------



## KarenSoCal (Apr 18, 2018)

The Living Desert in Palm Desert is co-sponsoring a public awareness campaign called "Time To Talk Trash". They are highlighting the raven as the bird that eats the tortoises, and whose populations are exploding due to more and more people invading previously barren desert, and leaving their garbage, fast food containers, and other trash behind.
I attend the CTTC meetings held at the Living Desert, where I learned about this. They have never said crows were a threat, but I sure wouldn't trust one around a baby.


----------



## MrMarg&me (Apr 19, 2018)

Tom said:


> Its a love/hate thing for me. I respect and admire the intelligence, flight capability and ability to survive of all the corvids. Some people believe them to be the smartest animals on the planet. If they aren't the smartest, they are certainly near the top of the list.
> 
> On the other hand, they are seriously over populated due to their ability to thrive by living on the coat tails of human societies, and the damage they do is unfathomable. They are literally wiping out the desert tortoise in Mojave. Saw a presentation on it at my falconry meet in January.
> 
> So while I truly love and admire them, there are far too many and they are far too destructive and their numbers need to be controlled.


Place human beings in place of the word corvids and you would also be absolutely correct. The unfortunate reality is humans are far too destructive. Crows are only a symptom.


----------



## ascott (Apr 21, 2018)

orv said:


> This evening just before sunset, my wife looked out of the kitchen window, and behold: a big black, nasty old crow entering our CDTs burrow. My first reaction was "where's my shotgun" (oops . . . I don't have a gun). I dashed out into the tortoise yard and THAT crow flew off. I've never wittnesed this before, but do these crows pose a threat? The burrow is roughly 7ft long by 3 and a half ft deep. I couldn't see any of the tortoises, but I know that at times they rest near the entrance. Could a crow pose a threat? Will this aforementioned big, black, nasty old crow be back? I know that there are plenty of crows in the Mojave Desert where CDTs are from . . . what hazard do they present adult tortoises? I know that they eat young tortoises, but will then be a threat to my adults? Should I purchase a shotgun? Geesh. . . I'm ticked!!



You may want to first determine Crow or Raven, distinctly different in size. Also, crows will generally be in a group vs Ravens will be solo or with a mate (they mate for life). A Raven is super smart, will dip their food in water to soften, just like we do a donut in coffee....they will study you and learn what you do...I had two study me every morning and then they attempted to turn the water faucet on together...was awesome to watch....

We don't have Crow here in the High Desert, we have Raven...which are listed as a migratory bird, so no shotgun allowed here....also, not needed....there are a few rules to follow here and can peacefully coexist with them....I have a water source for them that is clean and clear out of the CDT enclosures, they use to drop into the CDT enclosures to obtain water...so after I set up a solo water source, no longer in the enclosures....the CDT here are all grown male tortoise. They are great at cleaning up any left overs that attract coyote, bobcat and the such...so they are a good help here...never leave a trash can vulnerable to a clever minded Raven and all is good...

I would suspect that perhaps the bird you noticed may have dropped something as if flew overhead and went to retrieve it??? Did you go and look to see if there had been anything dropped? 

The Raven here will drop all kinds of "gross" goodies as they fly overhead....they are predators as well as scavengers...actually a very impressive creature...


----------



## ascott (Apr 21, 2018)

Tom said:


> Its a love/hate thing for me. I respect and admire the intelligence, flight capability and ability to survive of all the corvids. Some people believe them to be the smartest animals on the planet. If they aren't the smartest, they are certainly near the top of the list.
> 
> On the other hand, they are seriously over populated due to their ability to thrive by living on the coat tails of human societies, and the damage they do is unfathomable. They are literally wiping out the desert tortoise in Mojave. Saw a presentation on it at my falconry meet in January.
> 
> So while I truly love and admire them, there are far too many and they are far too destructive and their numbers need to be controlled.




Tom, check this out....I figured you would appreciate this story. I was at a gas station in Phelan, Ca....was pumping gas and noticed feathers fluttering down around...hmm? this simple girl thought?...then more and then suddenly a piece of feathered flesh pinked/splat on the trunk of my white car....ewwww, I thought...then realized, hey, where did that come from....looked up and on top of the shade shelter over the gas pumps sat a couple of Ravens devouring a couple of helpless pigeons.....crude, but a reminder that Raven are predators as well....


----------



## orv (Apr 21, 2018)

ascott said:


> You may want to first determine Crow or Raven, distinctly different in size. Also, crows will generally be in a group vs Ravens will be solo or with a mate (they mate for life). A Raven is super smart, will dip their food in water to soften, just like we do a donut in coffee....they will study you and learn what you do...I had two study me every morning and then they attempted to turn the water faucet on together...was awesome to watch....
> 
> We don't have Crow here in the High Desert, we have Raven...which are listed as a migratory bird, so no shotgun allowed here....also, not needed....there are a few rules to follow here and can peacefully coexist with them....I have a water source for them that is clean and clear out of the CDT enclosures, they use to drop into the CDT enclosures to obtain water...so after I set up a solo water source, no longer in the enclosures....the CDT here are all grown male tortoise. They are great at cleaning up any left overs that attract coyote, bobcat and the such...so they are a good help here...never leave a trash can vulnerable to a clever minded Raven and all is good...
> 
> ...


 I certainly apologize for any ignorance in mis-naming the large black bird that invaded our tortoise enclosure. At sunset that evening we witnessed only a solitary bird, although we often see large murders of them. I recently read an article that postulated that the inter-breeding between crows and ravens in the western USA has made their dna indistinguishable. All that I'm certain of is that a large black bird (crow or raven, or mixed breed, I don't know) had trouble in it's eye as it looked into our tortoise burrow. All turned out well, but I'm still not likely to encourage their presence in our vicinity.


----------



## ascott (Apr 21, 2018)

orv said:


> I certainly apologize for any ignorance in mis-naming the large black bird that invaded our tortoise enclosure. At sunset that evening we witnessed only a solitary bird, although we often see large murders of them. I recently read an article that postulated that the inter-breeding between crows and ravens in the western USA has made their dna indistinguishable. All that I'm certain of is that a large black bird (crow or raven, or mixed breed, I don't know) had trouble in it's eye as it looked into our tortoise burrow. All turned out well, but I'm still not likely to encourage their presence in our vicinity.



Totally understand....as a Los Angeles native...I had only encountered the common Crow....then when I moved to the High Desert tons of years ago...I encountered a Raven, and thought, wholly crap, what do the crows here eat...that thing is HUGE....then researched and found that there is a difference....lol....I meant not to belittle you at all by pointing out the difference, not at all....Just was sharing what I had learned  I have to say, that while Ravens are human followers and can be destructive, I do have to say that I have learned to appreciate their presence as well....let me tell you, the first time I was witness to one lofting into the enclosure of one of the CDTs here, I flew out and chucked rocks and a lot of not so lady like vocabulary at it to boot....but as I learned more about them, I was less worried and instead appreciated the balance...


----------



## Tom (Apr 22, 2018)

orv said:


> I certainly apologize for any ignorance in mis-naming the large black bird that invaded our tortoise enclosure. At sunset that evening we witnessed only a solitary bird, although we often see large murders of them. I recently read an article that postulated that the inter-breeding between crows and ravens in the western USA has made their dna indistinguishable. All that I'm certain of is that a large black bird (crow or raven, or mixed breed, I don't know) had trouble in it's eye as it looked into our tortoise burrow. All turned out well, but I'm still not likely to encourage their presence in our vicinity.


I've never heard of them interbreeding. They are as different as dogs and cats to my eye.

Most of the time when people talk about "crows" getting into mischief, I assume raven. We have both here in my area.

While ravens are often solitary or in pairs, they also form large bachelor groups, and they will also bring in other ravens on purpose to crowd a dominant pair, or other predator, off of a food source. There is an area near here at a bus depot where 12-20 ravens congregate at dusk every night to roost together.

Fascinating animals to observe. So smart.


----------



## madbad (Apr 22, 2018)

This is a fun article: 

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31604026


----------



## KarenSoCal (Apr 22, 2018)

madbad said:


> This is a fun article:
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31604026


Thanks for posting that. It really is fun!


----------



## Kenno (Apr 26, 2018)

A few years ago, when I had first accepted my desert tort rescues, one suddenly developed weird symptoms. It was covered in white “fungus” and had a bloody head. The vet was puzzled but said it was not fungus. Eventually I concluded that some large bird must have landed on his shell, pecked the top of his head, and pooped on him! He was fine and had only a scab on his head which healed completely. It could have been a hawk or a crow, maybe even a raven. I’m guessing.


----------



## orv (Apr 27, 2018)

The hazards our tortoises survive to yet go on another day.


----------



## ascott (Apr 28, 2018)

Kenno said:


> A few years ago, when I had first accepted my desert tort rescues, one suddenly developed weird symptoms. It was covered in white “fungus” and had a bloody head. The vet was puzzled but said it was not fungus. Eventually I concluded that some large bird must have landed on his shell, pecked the top of his head, and pooped on him! He was fine and had only a scab on his head which healed completely. It could have been a hawk or a crow, maybe even a raven. I’m guessing.



So rude, right....lol....no respect huh


----------



## Turborich (May 17, 2018)

You don't like crows? I absolutely love crows and ravens. They are extremely intelligent. I see Ravens in the desert often, however in out back yard we just have little sparrows, doves, great tailed grackles, mocking birds and the dreaded pigeon. I would be worried if I had a small tortoise and there was a raven nearby.


----------



## orv (May 17, 2018)

Turborich said:


> You don't like crows? I absolutely love crows and ravens. They are extremely intelligent. I see Ravens in the desert often, however in out back yard we just have little sparrows, doves, great tailed grackles, mocking birds and the dreaded pigeon. I would be worried if I had a small tortoise and there was a raven nearby.


 A sip of Old Crow . . . now that I like. Crows/ravens . . . over-populated, evil predators! They are the chief predator of baby CDTs, along with human destruction of their environment. By the way, it is human encroachment of their environment that has enabled the over population of crows/ravens.


----------



## KarenSoCal (May 17, 2018)

Turborich said:


> You don't like crows? I absolutely love crows and ravens. They are extremely intelligent. I see Ravens in the desert often, however in out back yard we just have little sparrows, doves, great tailed grackles, mocking birds and the dreaded pigeon. I would be worried if I had a small tortoise and there was a raven nearby.


Add roadrunners, verdin, hummingbirds, and migrating hooded orioles and western tanagers, along with an occasional cooper's hawk, and once a kestrel...we have the same back yard! [emoji2]
Our great tailed grackle comes and visits Chug every afternoon...has a long drink, takes a bath, and hangs out for a while.


----------



## ascott (May 17, 2018)

KarenSoCal said:


> Add roadrunners, verdin, hummingbirds, and migrating hooded orioles and western tanagers, along with an occasional cooper's hawk, and once a kestrel...we have the same back yard! [emoji2]
> Our great tailed grackle comes and visits Chug every afternoon...has a long drink, takes a bath, and hangs out for a while.



I have a local Roadrunner that I do enjoy...can hear the clicking noise it makes...very cool...the way I see it, all of the critters that survive in the desert are hearty and all have their own pros and cons...no reason to fight their being here...but rather try to all co habitat. Ravens are truly a pretty smart cookie...but then again, so are CDTs....all a balance I suppose.


----------

