# He doesn't like being called a Turtle



## dannomite (Jul 16, 2010)

lol boredom


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## Scooter (Jul 16, 2010)

Very cute! This seems a hard concept for some to understand though lol


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## Stephanie Logan (Jul 16, 2010)

Say that again, up close!

Scary prospect.

Hahaha! Cute.


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## Tom (Jul 16, 2010)

That's hilarious. I want a big version to hang in my reptile room.

Is that Nova? Very nice looking sulcata.


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## dannomite (Jul 16, 2010)

Hey thanks! Yep thats Nova from 3 or 4 months ago so she's a bit bigger now


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## Isa (Jul 16, 2010)

LOL very funny  Thanks for sharing!


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## Yvonne G (Jul 16, 2010)

Wow! Your turtle is so smooth!


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## Cameron (Jul 16, 2010)

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!! i don't know how many times a week i have to say "it's a tortoise, not a turtle!". my 6 year old son even says it. 

in fact, we were at the OKC zoo last night doing a "behind the scenes" tour of the herpetarium and we came across across a display with a fly river turtle in it. my son, Damon said "now THAT'S a turtle, mommy!". i love that boy.....


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## Tom (Jul 16, 2010)

Red Earth Exotics said:


> AWESOME!!!!!!!!!! i don't know how many times a week i have to say "it's a tortoise, not a turtle!". my 6 year old son even says it.
> 
> in fact, we were at the OKC zoo last night doing a "behind the scenes" tour of the herpetarium and we came across across a display with a fly river turtle in it. my son, Damon said "now THAT'S a turtle, mommy!". i love that boy.....



Awwwe. What a good boy. My three year old, Ava, needs to find a guy like that... in about another 32 years, when I let her start dating.

Ask her what her favorite cockroach species is and you'll get a very enthusiastic, " BLAPTICA DUBIA!"


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## Madkins007 (Jul 16, 2010)

Great photo! The caption is inaccurate, but funny!

If I hear another person insist that a tortoise is not a turtle, I am going to scream. Of course a tortoise is a turtle. 

You CANNOT define a tortoise without using the word 'turtle'- "FreeDictionary.com: Tortoise. Any of various terrestrial turtles, especially one of the family Testudinidae, characteristically having thick clublike hind limbs and a high, rounded carapace."

Our beloved tortoises are a CATEGORY of turtle, not an animal apart from other turtles.

If you REALLY want to get me going, insist that dangerous snakes are venomous, not poisonous.


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## Candy (Jul 16, 2010)

I love that! I also want a copy of it.   Very creative of you.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jul 16, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> Great photo! The caption is inaccurate, but funny!
> 
> If I hear another person insist that a tortoise is not a turtle, I am going to scream. Of course a tortoise is a turtle.
> 
> ...



Mark you have became a Herpetological Theologian..............

Terry K


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## Tom (Jul 16, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> You CANNOT define a tortoise without using the word 'turtle'- "FreeDictionary.com: Tortoise. Any of various terrestrial turtles, especially one of the family Testudinidae, characteristically having thick clublike hind limbs and a high, rounded carapace."



Yes you can. Example: A tortoise is a land dwelling, four legged, reptile, with no teeth and a protective shell defined by a carapace on top and a plastron on bottom.



Madkins007 said:


> Our beloved tortoises are a CATEGORY of turtle, not an animal apart from other turtles.



This is very arguable in taxonomic terms and I don't agree. That's like saying a cat is a type of dog. They both have fangs and claws. They are both carnivores, both in name and diet.



Madkins007 said:


> If you REALLY want to get me going, insist that dangerous snakes are venomous, not poisonous.



Did you get this one backwards? There are no poisonous snakes in the world to my knowledge. All of them can be eaten without harm to the eater. There are most certainly a lot of venomous snakes around the globe, however. Of course there are also "dangerous" snakes that aren't poisonous or venomous.


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## BuffsTorts (Jul 16, 2010)

Calling a Tortoise a turtle is like calling me a chimpanzee!
I get it to often, "how are your turtles", I reply "underfed, but my TORTOISES are happy!"


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## Cameron (Jul 17, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> Great photo! The caption is inaccurate, but funny!
> 
> If I hear another person insist that a tortoise is not a turtle, I am going to scream. Of course a tortoise is a turtle.
> 
> ...



a tortoise is a kind of a turtle, but not all turtles are tortoises. they are both chelonians. most turtles have webbed back feet for swimming and live in the water. tortoises have stubby feet with claws. turtles are adapted to live in water, tortoises to land. it is really semantics, but it really bugs me when someone calls a sulcata, leopard or other tortoise a "turtle". one of my things i guess...

snakes are indeed venomous, not poisonous. i have been around and owned many "dangerous" snakes that were not venomous....an 18 foot retic can be pretty dangerous!


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## Madkins007 (Jul 17, 2010)

Tom said:


> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> > You CANNOT define a tortoise without using the word 'turtle'- "FreeDictionary.com: Tortoise. Any of various terrestrial turtles, especially one of the family Testudinidae, characteristically having thick clublike hind limbs and a high, rounded carapace."
> ...




Take out the word 'land' and you have defined a turtle. What makes a tortoise not a turtle?



Tom said:


> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> > Our beloved tortoises are a CATEGORY of turtle, not an animal apart from other turtles.
> ...





All shelled reptiles are members of the Order Testudines. Tortoises are a Family within the Order called Testudinidea. I do not see how you can argue what has been an accepted placement for hundreds of years.

A cat is not a type of dog, but both are members of the Order Carnivora- in part because they both have claws and fangs and eat meat. Cats are felids- they have retractable claws and rarely hunt in groups (but there are exceptions.) Dogs are canids and almost always work in packs.



Tom said:


> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> > Did you get this one backwards? There are no poisonous snakes in the world to my knowledge. All of them can be eaten without harm to the eater. There are most certainly a lot of venomous snakes around the globe, however. Of course there are also "dangerous" snakes that aren't poisonous or venomous.
> ...


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## drgnfly2265 (Jul 17, 2010)

Wow, I really love that picture! A guy at my work kept talking about a picture that I have at work of my sulcata tortoise (yes, there is a pic of my tort at work on my locker, lol). Every time he would say something about him being a turtle I would always correct him telling him that he is a tortoise. One day, after I once again corrected him, he turned around looked at me and said "oh it doesn't matter, they are the same thing anyways". I got so fustrated. I didn't know what to say. 

___________________________________________________________

Jamie

1 Sulcata (Bowser)
1 Bearded Dragon (Dante)
1 Shih-tzu/Llasa apso (Suki)


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## Madkins007 (Jul 17, 2010)

BuffsTorts said:


> Calling a Tortoise a turtle is like calling me a chimpanzee!
> I get it to often, "how are your turtles", I reply "underfed, but my TORTOISES are happy!"



Cute and emotional, but also completely inaccurate. You and chimpanzees are two species of primates. Calling a tortoise a turtle is like calling you a primate. 

Calling you a chimpanzee would be like calling a Sulcata Tortoise a Red-foot- calling it the wrong species in the same category.



Red Earth Exotics said:


> a tortoise is a kind of a turtle, but not all turtles are tortoises. they are both chelonians. most turtles have webbed back feet for swimming and live in the water. tortoises have stubby feet with claws. turtles are adapted to live in water, tortoises to land. it is really semantics, but it really bugs me when someone calls a sulcata, leopard or other tortoise a "turtle". one of my things i guess...
> 
> snakes are indeed venomous, not poisonous. i have been around and owned many "dangerous" snakes that were not venomous....an 18 foot retic can be pretty dangerous!



I never said nor implied that all turtles were tortoises. I am very well versed in the differences between tortoises, land turtles, basking or pond turtles, freshwater turtles, marsh turtles, and sea turtles, and know what 'turtle', 'terrapin', 'tortoise' means in American, European, and Australian usage.

I can understand feeling that calling our beloved animals 'turtles' hurts- but it is rather like a pedigree poodle breeder getting upset when someone calls their animals 'dogs'. It is actually a bit silly and confusing to the poor non-herp person who was just trying to be polite.

Snakes- I know snakes can be dangerous without being venomous, but that was the best term I could think of spur of the moment. Otherwise, since all venoms are poisons, I remain firm in my statements.



drgnfly2265 said:


> Wow, I really love that picture! A guy at my work kept talking about a picture that I have at work of my sulcata tortoise (yes, there is a pic of my tort at work on my locker, lol). Every time he would say something about him being a turtle I would always correct him telling him that he is a tortoise. One day, after I once again corrected him, he turned around looked at me and said "oh it doesn't matter, they are the same thing anyways". I got so fustrated. I didn't know what to say.
> 
> ___________________________________________________________
> 
> ...



EXACTLY! Insisting on a terminology only WE understand is confusing to the layperson who barely understands that some turtles do not need to live in water. 

To him, he was trying to be nice and interested and you rebuffed him without being to help him understand the issue. Is he now a tortoise supporter or does he now think that reptile people are a bit screwed up?

And those who insist that tortoises are not turtles- what do you say to our Boxie-loving friends here? Are you telling them that our dry-landers are in no way related to their turtles? Are they 'wannabes' for hanging out here?

I showed some of my torts at work and quickly gathered a crowd who wanted to see the 'turtles'. I COULD have said something like 'they are not turtles, they are tortoises", but instead, I used it as a teachable moment and said something like "they are tortoises, a group of turtles that live completely out of the water. They are related to the giant tortoises you have seen in the zoo." I discussed some of the things that made them different from the turtles they had as pets or saw at the zoo.

When I was done (and it was not a big speech or anything, just talking to them), they were charmed by the baby and bigger 'torts' (and I had them using that term by then) AND had secured my reputation as the go-to guy for animal things. Even now, a couple weeks later, they ask how the 'torts' are.



Please understand- us joking around and throwing attitude that our shelled wonders are superior in every way to their lesser wet cousins is fine and fun, and I will join in. Willfully ignoring real science, taxonomy, terminology, etc., however, is kind of sad and depressing for a group of people like us.

Same with the snakes bit. I am not enough of an idiot to demand that 'poisonous' is the right term- 'venomous' is indeed more accurate- I am just tired of people insisting on a term they heard someone else claim is the 'only right term' when that claim was wrong to begin with. There are many biology texts and scholarly papers that discuss 'poisonous snakes' and there is no way *I* am going to declare those people wrong.



One last bit on this- all of you who insist you are right on the 'turtles are not tortoises' and 'snakes are venomous and not poisonous' bit- if you are going to be that way about it, no reptile 'hibernates'- they 'brumate'. Please stop using the wrong term.


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## BuffsTorts (Jul 17, 2010)

> Cute and emotional, but also completely inaccurate. You and chimpanzees are two species of primates. Calling a tortoise a turtle is like calling you a primate.



Ok, do we call our selves primates? or humans/homo sapiens?
If we have a more defined classification, reverting back to a parent species is redundant.
A tortoise is a tortoise, a turtle is a turtle, if a tortoise was still a turtle, it would still be classified as a turtle.
A tortoise is a NEW species, separate from turtles, they share a common ancestor. 
Modern turtles are ancestors of the same species tortoises are, yet to go back to when they shared that ancestor, is equivalent to going back and classifying a human, as an monkey.
We still MAY be classified as an ape, yet it is not proper to refer to us as such. We are humans, a new species, we do not use the parent species name any longer, unless we are in a science book, in which case I agree, yes a tortoise is a type of turtle categorically.



> Calling you a chimpanzee would be like calling a Sulcata Tortoise a Red-foot- calling it the wrong species in the same category.


Ok, so instead you want to call it the same species in a different category? To classify a tortoise, a separate species, as a turtle, you would be reverting further back in time, and further back generation wise then humans and chimps. 
I do not disagree that scientifically speaking, as we are monkeys, a tortoise is a turtle.

AronRa - Humans are monkeys


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## Redfoot NERD (Jul 18, 2010)

What's the difference between 'rebuking' someone that calls a tortoise a turtle.. and 'rebuking' someone who rebukes?

Apparently 'science/herp-theologian heads' enjoy depating? or trying to prove that they are right!?.. and the other guy is wrong? The Lord knows I've been guilty/accused of this enough in the past.. myself.

To show how 'out-of-hand' and ridiculous this can get -

*.... no teeth?*







Terry K


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## RichardS (Jul 18, 2010)

Redfoot NERD said:


> *.... no teeth?*
> 
> Terry K



haha. Even you know those aren't teeth. That beak sure does look sharp though.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jul 18, 2010)

RichardS said:


> Redfoot NERD said:
> 
> 
> > *.... no teeth?*
> ...



Well I've not seen any 'gaps' from losing them if that's what you mean.

As you may suspect she's in that nesting 'trance'.. she's gritting something -






Of course this old _turtle_ doesn't have any!

"Justa leanin' up against this post"................. 






[ sorry 'bout piggy-backing this thread ]

NERD


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## Tom (Jul 18, 2010)

BuffsTorts said:


> > Cute and emotional, but also completely inaccurate. You and chimpanzees are two species of primates. Calling a tortoise a turtle is like calling you a primate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well said. Thank you.



Redfoot NERD said:


> What's the difference between 'rebuking' someone that calls a tortoise a turtle.. and 'rebuking' someone who rebukes?



Also well said. Thank you too.


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## Kristina (Jul 18, 2010)

Mark - seriously, freaking relax. Everything said on this forum does not need to be compared the Encyclopedia Britannica. I respect your knowledge, but sometimes, you just need to have a sense of humor. It is seriously lacking in times like this.

To the OP - I think that was hilarious. I have a "demotivational poster" that a friend made me, with me and one of my Hingebacks, but unfortunately it is not rated PG 13, lol.


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## dannomite (Jul 18, 2010)

LOL at Kristina...I had an original version of this picture where Nova's language was a bit more foul. I thought I should make a PG 13 version before I posted here. 

I enjoy the debate but I just thought it was funny, and its a bit of a pet peeve when people constantly refer to my sulcata as a turtle because in my mind they are 2 different animals. 

Mark you are a super-smart dude, I appreciate all the knowledge but I'm still going to get annoyed when people call it a Turtle I dont think you can change that. I do not in any way think Torts are superior to Turtles. Sea Turtles are the most fascinating creatures on this earth in my opinion, but my bathtub is too small to raise one . I just tried to get a chuckle out of some people, no need to suck the fun out of everything!


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## BuffsTorts (Jul 18, 2010)

Redfoot NERD said:


> Apparently 'science/herp-theologian heads' enjoy depating? or trying to prove that they are right!?.. and the other guy is wrong? The Lord knows I've been guilty/accused of this enough in the past.. myself.
> (SNIP)


I do not care if I am right or wrong, if I am proved to be wrong with solid examples/evidence, I gladly and welcome the change to my opinion to fit and suit reality.
I think everyone in this 'debate' is being friendly, Madkins is 100% correct, if you look at family clades and the like, A tortoise is a type of turtle, however being so far removed from the common ancestor of the 2. I believe it to be silly to insist upon referring to it as a turtle, even though it is very clearly defined as a separate species. In the same technicalities, a human is a monkey, literally. this divergence of the species is some 33-38million years ago. Splitting into, old world monkeys, new world monkeys, then into the 'ape' classification.
South American Tortoises share a common ancestor with African Tortoises, going all the way back to when the last of the super continent Pangaea began to separate, I believe that took place some 100-150 million years ago. 
Box turtles are a species divided from turtles in a much smaller time frame.
The box turtle can never be classified as a tortoise, as the tortoise/turtle split took place ages ago, and no matter what the evolutionary changes to a box turtle, will never be able to rejoin with the tortoise lineage, it simple shares a common ancestor. 
As 2 different lizard species will not join lineages again either. Once a new branch of a tree is made, it can and will not rejoin with other branches.
To the layperson, a tortoise is clearly a tortoise, as a human is clearly a human, even though common ancestors exist, as well as commonalities between the two. 
In one post Madkins stated that if you remove land dwelling from tortoise definitions it is clearly still a turtle, well that is bad science. You can not ignore key pieces of data to reach the result you would like.
A tortoise will also have many different internal changes which clearly separates them from turtles further.

Madkins, do you have a copy of a recent tree of life diagram of the tort/turtle split? I would be interested in seeing it.

My tortoise, is a tortoise.
The latin name represents this whole heatedly
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/9/3/457.pdf


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## RichardS (Jul 18, 2010)

What's in a name? This conversation would be totally different in Italian, French or Spanish. In many languages your tortoise is a turtle.

But seriously, all of our shelled friends are in the order Testudines (turtles). Its not debatable, no matter what analogy comes up next.



BuffsTorts said:


> A tortoise is a type of turtle, however being so far removed from the common ancestor of the 2. I believe it to be silly to insist upon referring to it as a turtle, even though it is very clearly defined as a separate species. In the same technicalities, a human is a monkey, literally.



A human is not a monkey. Your example would be like calling a sulcata an aquatic turtle.



BuffsTorts said:


> In one post Madkins stated that if you remove land dwelling from tortoise definitions it is clearly still a turtle, well that is bad science. You can not ignore key pieces of data to reach the result you would like.
> A tortoise will also have many different internal changes which clearly separates them from turtles further.



Actually, that's great science. Biologists are constantly forced to describe things in the simplest manor based on detailed observations, then shoot holes in their conclusions to see if they still float. A lot of birds fly, but some don't. They are still birds because they share many characteristics.



BuffsTorts said:


> I do not care if I am right or wrong, if I am proved to be wrong with solid examples/evidence, I gladly and welcome the change to my opinion to fit and suit reality.



This is actually a great attitude for science. But the burden of evidence is now on you. Since conventional nomenclature tells us that the family Testudinidae (tortoises) is part of the order Testudines (turtles).


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## Isa (Jul 18, 2010)

RichardS said:


> What's in a name? This conversation would be totally different in Italian, French or Spanish. In many languages your tortoise is a turtle.
> 
> But seriously, all of our shelled friends are in the order Testudines (turtles). Its not debatable, no matter what analogy comes up next.



French is like english; turtle is tortue and tortoise is tortoise (the prononciation is not the same though) When I speak french, I call my Hermy my tortoise and not my turtle


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## Stephanie Logan (Jul 18, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> If I hear another person insist that a tortoise is not a turtle, I am going to scream. Of course a tortoise is a turtle.
> 
> You CANNOT define a tortoise without using the word 'turtle'- "FreeDictionary.com: Tortoise. Any of various terrestrial turtles, especially one of the family Testudinidae, characteristically having thick clublike hind limbs and a high, rounded carapace."
> 
> Our beloved tortoises are a CATEGORY of turtle, not an animal apart from other turtles.



A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square. An equilateral triangle is also an isosceles triangle, but an isoscleles triangle is not equilateral.


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## BuffsTorts (Jul 18, 2010)

RichardS said:


> This is actually a great attitude for science. But the burden of evidence is now on you. Since conventional nomenclature tells us that the family Testudinidae (tortoises) is part of the order Testudines (turtles).



Moved to a more appropriate location.
Lets keep it in good fun.
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-16943.html


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## Madkins007 (Jul 19, 2010)

BuffsTorts said:


> RichardS said:
> 
> 
> > This is actually a great attitude for science. But the burden of evidence is now on you. Since conventional nomenclature tells us that the family Testudinidae (tortoises) is part of the order Testudines (turtles).
> ...



Thanks for doing that!


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