# The Reptile Community tear's itself apart



## naturalman91 (Mar 17, 2016)

so lately i've been meeting more and more people that are in the reptile community with all different type's of reptiles and one thing i've noticed is there seems to be a lot of bashing and hating on people for doing things a certain way even if it works for them with proven results and i don't understand why

so does anyone want to take a guess at why this is? it's a little irritating because it's normally " my way is right and no other way" type of conversations i hear


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## lisa127 (Mar 17, 2016)

I don't know why. I just don't share everything with people. My reptiles are usually rescues. If i see an improvement after a few months I know what I'm doing is working and that's what's important. My redfoot for example has improved tons in the last 7 months and grown a lot. His temps, humidity, uvb, and size of enclosure is spot on. His substrate, however, would be a big debate here and in groups. But it works for him and it works for me and that's what's important.


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## wellington (Mar 17, 2016)

I think it's because the way they have been doing it has been the way for sooooo many years they just don't think there really is a new or better way. Kinda an ego thing. They have been into it so long, they are sure if there was something better, they would have thought of it or hear of it long ago. Another reason I think, they just don't believe what they read on a forum. 
I ran in to a guy, manager at a pet store chain with both the attitudes I listed. Has sulcatas and snakes. Doesn't believe humidity plays that big of a role in pyramiding. I tried the best I could, but he then chimed in with you cant believe what people are saying on a forum. I even told him about Tom and that he shows proof and well, I don't think I convinced him of anything. I told him to look on the forum, hopefully he does and opens his mind to changes


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## wellington (Mar 17, 2016)

lisa127 said:


> I don't know why. I just don't share everything with people. My reptiles are usually rescues. If i see an improvement after a few months I know what I'm doing is working and that's what's important. My redfoot for example has improved tons in the last 7 months and grown a lot. His temps, humidity, uvb, and size of enclosure is spot on. His substrate, however, would be a big debate here and in groups. But it works for him and it works for me and that's what's important.


Not trying to debate you or question you, but I think some people say the same thing about what they are doing. It works. The bigger picture is not only is it working, but are they thriving. That's another problem I think people have. If the animal is living, eating, grazing, etc, they think they are doing good, not realizing that the animal is not thriving. 
Again, don't take this as a reference towards you and what you may be doing. It sounds like yours is doing good and thriving as its improving.


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## lisa127 (Mar 17, 2016)

wellington said:


> Not trying to debate you or question you, but I think some people say the same thing about what they are doing. It works. The bigger picture is not only is it working, but are they thriving. That's another problem I think people have. If the animal is living, eating, grazing, etc, they think they are doing good, not realizing that the animal is not thriving.
> Again, don't take this as a reference towards you and what you may be doing. It sounds like yours is doing good and thriving as its improving.


That's what I was implying.....thriving. when I said if a rescue improves a lot and grows well in a few months time you're doing something right! By improves, i figured that implied thrives.


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## lisa127 (Mar 17, 2016)

wellington said:


> I think it's because the way they have been doing it has been the way for sooooo many years they just don't think there really is a new or better way. Kinda an ego thing. They have been into it so long, they are sure if there was something better, they would have thought of it or hear of it long ago. Another reason I think, they just don't believe what they read on a forum.
> I ran in to a guy, manager at a pet store chain with both the attitudes I listed. Has sulcatas and snakes. Doesn't believe humidity plays that big of a role in pyramiding. I tried the best I could, but he then chimed in with you cant believe what people are saying on a forum. I even told him about Tom and that he shows proof and well, I don't think I convinced him of anything. I told him to look on the forum, hopefully he does and opens his mind to changes


Another way to look at it.....he was asking about people thinking their way is the only right way. It's possible that the person being debated with is thinking the same thing, no? (Not directed at you personally of course)


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## wellington (Mar 17, 2016)

lisa127 said:


> That's what I was implying.....thriving. when I said if a rescue improves a lot and grows well in a few months time you're doing something right! By improves, i figured that implied thrives.


That's why I said this was not towards you. Just what you said, others will use some of the same words, but they don't consider thriving, just if the animal is acting fairly normal, and growing, then they think all is well, and won't open up to better ways, because they think their tort is doing good, not realizing they are not thriving


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## wellington (Mar 17, 2016)

lisa127 said:


> Another way to look at it.....he was asking about people thinking their way is the only right way. It's possible that the person being debated with is thinking the same thing, no? (Not directed at you personally of course)


Absolutely and there lies one if not the reason things have taken so long to change and improve. That is also why, I like seeing proof before I just change something.


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## lisa127 (Mar 17, 2016)

wellington said:


> Absolutely and there lies one if not the reason things have taken so long to change and improve. That is also why, I like seeing proof before I just change something.


Right. And we are all learning as we go and doing the best we can. Really....none of us wants to harm our animals and we need to keep that in mind. And be kind to each other!


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## dmmj (Mar 17, 2016)

I guess it all depends on how you broach the subject. I'm doing it right you're doing wrong na-na-na, probably does not work too well.


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## lisa127 (Mar 17, 2016)

I also think it's most important to get environmental parameters correct and the rest can be considered what works best in that situation. For instance, I stated above with my redfoot about his temps and humidity being spot on. His enclosure ranges throughout the 80s and humidity averages out to 70% (ranges from 60 to 82 depending on time of day). But I don't use the substrates others do. Does it matter that I'm not using damp soil or cypress if I'm achieving the correct humidity? Some use foggers, some don't see the need. As long as you are providing humidity that's what's important.


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## naturalman91 (Mar 17, 2016)

all good points. i've just come to notice it can even be as simple as talking with someone about a animal and then saying oh i've read this what do you think about it that can set someone off or some try to defend they're way of doing it and when you ask if they'd be willing to teach you some things or talk to you more about it they get offended 

i haven't had these problems to much in the tortoise world but mostly in snakes and lizards, lizard's in particular seem to be a big hot button of your wrong im right


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 17, 2016)

I just read about some test or something, I can't find it now, and of course I can't remember details, but I know somebody else here saw it, about too much heat causing pyramiding.???


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## naturalman91 (Mar 17, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> I just read about some test or something, I can't find it now, and of course I can't remember details, but I know somebody else here saw it, about too much heat causing pyramiding.???



i saw that where it was talking about over night heat?


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## dmmj (Mar 18, 2016)

being a part of the California turtle and Tortoise Club (Foothill chapter in the hiz-house)I mostly get people coming up to me asking for advice on how to care for the tortoises and turtles.


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## naturalman91 (Mar 18, 2016)

dmmj said:


> being a part of the California turtle and Tortoise Club (Foothill chapter in the hiz-house)I mostly get people coming up to me asking for advice on how to care for the tortoises and turtles.


but im sure you gladly share knowledge or point them towards the correct sources right?


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 18, 2016)

I just read an article on line that said that too much heat will cause pyramiding just as bad as no humidity. I can't for the life of me find it in this crap machine, but I wonder if it has any validity?
I'm fostering Pansy, she's 2 months old now and in her habitat it's 95 ambient degrees, and hotter under the light. 90% humidity. In the night the CHE keeps it at about 98 degrees and she is never in a humid hide, she's always in the farthest corner from the heat. So I cocked the lid so it's only half covered, it's 80 degrees with 80% humidity and now every night she's sleeps in a small plastic container filled with damp moss. Darn, I hate taking care of Sulcata babies and trying to get it right. Give me Gopherus agassizii babies over Sulcata babies any time. One time I had 20 desert babies to head start and that was not nearly the trouble as this one 2 month old Sulcata... Well, that's my comment for the day, talk at you tomorrow....adios

oh PS lisa127
I do much more than different substrate that most members would disapprove of, but I figure it's my business as long as the tort is healthy fed right and heated, it's MY business how I raise them. But mostly the advice I give on here is the acceptable crap. Altho more and more I find myself saying, "this is how I do it and it's not necessarily accepted stuff by all members".
And for you naysayers, no that's not how Bob died. I did every and more right for him, he was killed by that Vet and a lawyer has already accepted my money. 2 different Vets put him in a private vehicle and sent him home while he was deep under anesthesia and not breathing right. I sure wish @deadheadvet, would comment on just that part. I'm trying to find out if it's morally or actually legally wrong.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 18, 2016)

I think it's an ego trip for most of those who have a hard time accepting anything new. They've done it their way for so long they feel that now they are the experts.

When I first started out back in the dark ages, there was no internet and I had to gain my knowledge from the printed word. I joined a few national clubs, one of which was National Turtle and Tortoise (club? society?). They were based in Arizona and put out a monthly newsletter that was...wait for it....MAILED to your house.

One of the things that they said over and again in that newsletter was that there are no experts in tortoise-keeping. That we are learning new things about tortoises all the time and to keep an open mind. I've always carried that thought with me. So when I started hearing about the hot and moist method rather than the hot and dry method, I was open to it, even though I had been caring for turtles and tortoises for a very, very long time and considered myself pretty knowledgeable on the subject.

You're never too old to learn (and, believe me folks, I'm old!).


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## Merrick (Mar 18, 2016)

Their are many reasons for this. One most people in our community want what is best for the animal so they will fight for other people to do the same as they are because they believe it to be correct. Two their is not enough scientific data to back up most claims (not enough field research of natural environment parameters also not enough lab research done on things like diet or the effects of humidity). Three most people are not opened minded for change or alternatives.


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## harris (Mar 18, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> .
> 
> When I first started out back in the dark ages, there was no internet and I had to gain my knowledge from the printed word. I joined a few national clubs, one of which was National Turtle and Tortoise (club? society?). They were based in Arizona and put out a monthly newsletter that was...wait for it....MAILED to your house.



Right on. Pulling something like that out of your mailbox as opposed to pulling it up on a computer screen is so much more satisfying to me. Weird, I suppose, to most.....


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## Pearly (Mar 18, 2016)

Great topic! I have notice that as well. Few years ago I joined aquatic forum to help me learn how to care for my children's new fish (unexpected birthday gift from their friends), and it too wasemotionally charged just like the reptile community. I think that wherever there is emotion attached this maybe expected to take place, and people feel very emotional about their pets and often our opinions are very strong especially when it comes to an animal wellbeing and safety.


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## mike taylor (Mar 18, 2016)

People need to understand just because it works for one on the other side of the country doesn't mean it will work for all . I take information from all over and put my spin on it .


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## Merrick (Mar 18, 2016)

mike taylor said:


> People need to understand just because it works for one on the other side of the country doesn't mean it will work for all . I take information from all over and put my spin on it .


Underground reptiles has that same philosophy they said so in their tegu care video. I also happen to agree


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## naturalman91 (Mar 18, 2016)

mike taylor said:


> People need to understand just because it works for one on the other side of the country doesn't mean it will work for all . I take information from all over and put my spin on it .



i'm constantly telling people this i had someone telling me recently i shouldnt use glass in my enclosures builds unless it was this one very specific brand other wise it would break i just tried telling the person any glass will break if your not careful they're response was "not this stuff i've used it for so long and have never had a problem"


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 18, 2016)

I think it's more than just what works on one side of the country. I think it's as individual as what works for me, may not work for you. Then when you add Mike's side of the country comment it gets worse. I live in rain, 7 months out of the year, what works for me here, make not work for Team Gomberg in the same state, but not as much rain. Seriously wouldn't work for Mike, who actually gets sun, like from the sky, a strange happening in Oregon...Plus, I'm damned lazy, so I do things to make it easier on myself. 
I always enjoy the keepers who brag "I have been doing things the same way for years", well, that doesn't make it right, especially as fast as tortoise keeping is changing now. 
David, wait until that guys glass does break and cuts an animal, he'll change his tune fast enuf


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## naturalman91 (Mar 18, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> I think it's more than just what works on one side of the country. I think it's as individual as what works for me, may not work for you. Then when you add Mike's side of the country comment it gets worse. I live in rain, 7 months out of the year, what works for me here, make not work for Team Gomberg in the same state, but not as much rain. Seriously wouldn't work for Mike, who actually gets sun, like from the sky, a strange happening in Oregon...Plus, I'm damned lazy, so I do things to make it easier on myself.
> I always enjoy the keepers who brag "I have been doing things the same way for years", well, that doesn't make it right, especially as fast as tortoise keeping is changing now.
> David, wait until that guys glass does break and cuts an animal, he'll change his tune fast enuf



that's exactly what i was thinking to he gave me the impression he wasn't very careful with it. 

and Team Gomberg and i are in the same town in oregon lol we're all 3 here!


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## Tom (Mar 19, 2016)

harris said:


> Right on. Pulling something like that out of your mailbox as opposed to pulling it up on a computer screen is so much more satisfying to me. Weird, I suppose, to most.....



That is because we are old...


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## Tom (Mar 19, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> I just read about some test or something, I can't find it now, and of course I can't remember details, but I know somebody else here saw it, about too much heat causing pyramiding.???



They raised some baby sulcatas in 30% humidity. The ones with more heat grew faster and there fore demonstrated more pyramiding. The cooler group grew slower and demonstrated the expected slower pyramiding.

If we accept my assertion that "Pyramiding is _caused_ by growth in conditions that are too dry", then faster growth will result is faster pyramiding while slower growth will result in slower pyramiding. The study proves my point, but some want to take it to mean that colder temps and slow growth are somehow good. It doesn't mean that at all. It just means that you have slower growing pyramided tortoises at lower temps compared to someone with better temps who has faster growing pyramided tortoises. My assertion is that we should strive for smooth tortoises regardless of the speed with which they grow. Dryness is the problem, not temperature.


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## naturalman91 (Mar 19, 2016)

Tom said:


> They raised some baby sulcatas in 30% humidity. The ones with more heat grew faster and there fore demonstrated more pyramiding. The cooler group grew slower and demonstrated the expected slower pyramiding.
> 
> If we accept my assertion that "Pyramiding is _caused_ by growth in conditions that are too dry", then faster growth will result is faster pyramiding while slower growth will result in slower pyramiding. The study proves my point, but some want to take it to mean that colder temps and slow growth are somehow good. It doesn't mean that at all. It just means that you have slower growing pyramided tortoises at lower temps compared to someone with better temps who has faster growing pyramided tortoises. My assertion is that we should strive for smooth tortoises regardless of the speed with which they grow. Dryness is the problem, not temperature.



i read this to but i cant recall was there any proof to what they were saying? i remember someone on the topic essentially trying to tell us we were all raising our torts wrong and it caused some offense to some


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 19, 2016)

Tom told me just what I really was asking about. You know we are always reading something new and different about raising smooth Sulcata. I don't believe anything I read on-line, that's why I posed my question here, to get expert opinions, just like I got. 
I worry about the heat, and that's what that article talked about. This morning it was 120 degrees in with my 2 month old foster. I HATE CHE's and I think I'm going to black bulbs for her. Even a timer turning the CHE on and off hasn't worked. There are mornings that I am surprised she's not crisp. And she's just smooth as hell, and I sure don't want to screw that up.


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 19, 2016)

naturalman91 said:


> that's exactly what i was thinking to he gave me the impression he wasn't very careful with it.
> 
> and Team Gomberg and i are in the same town in oregon lol we're all 3 here!



@Team Gomberg I am dying to meet Heather. Looks like a road trip for burgers or something for the 3 of us. I think we should all meet at lunch. I love driving and you guys are maybe an hour and some for me. It's only 200 miles. Think about it. I LOVE the idea, you home during the week at all?


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 19, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> I am dying to meet Heather. Looks like a road trip for burgers or something for the 3 of us. I think we should all meet at lunch. I love driving and you guys are maybe an hour and some for me. It's only 200 miles. Think about it. I LOVE the idea, you home during the week at all?



OMG! Even I can't do 200 miles in one hour hahaha I hit the wrong key... about 2 hours


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## naturalman91 (Mar 19, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> I am dying to meet Heather. Looks like a road trip for burgers or something for the 3 of us. I think we should all meet at lunch. I love driving and you guys are maybe an hour and some for me. It's only 200 miles. Think about it. I LOVE the idea, you home during the week at all?



yeah most of the time im home during the week i'm out of town right now tho in Louisiana for my brother's wedding. Then going to Arkansas to see some more family and friends i grew up with. but i like that idea your in Corvallis right? 



maggie3fan said:


> Tom told me just what I really was asking about. You know we are always reading something new and different about raising smooth Sulcata. I don't believe anything I read on-line, that's why I posed my question here, to get expert opinions, just like I got.
> I worry about the heat, and that's what that article talked about. This morning it was 120 degrees in with my 2 month old foster. I HATE CHE's and I think I'm going to black bulbs for her. Even a timer turning the CHE on and off hasn't worked. There are mornings that I am surprised she's not crisp. And she's just smooth as hell, and I sure don't want to screw that up.



do you have a Thermostat maggie? my enclosure could easily reach 100+ without one


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 19, 2016)

No, I thought using a timer to turn it on and off all night would work. I was wrong


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## naturalman91 (Mar 20, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> No, I thought using a timer to turn it on and off all night would work. I was wrong



would you need a lot of thermostat's if you were to get some? and are you sure you didn't have the switch on the timer flipped to bypass the timer and just give straight power? my timer has a switch like that when flipped it will alway's put out power to it.


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 20, 2016)

If I'm chuckling at you forgive me. So I went and counted. I have 11 habitats in the house, all with an MVB and a black light bulb for night time heat. That's some 22 lights, most on timers. Then I have the tort shed, it's got 4 lights on timers, and a pig blanket on a rheostat. Most of the MVB are on timers, so yeah, I know about the switch. giggle. This ain't my first rodeo. I 'think' I just need the one thermostat you told me about for the baby's CHE. I don't like or approve of CHE. I've had 2 animals fried by one. Just f'ing crisp. And my sis has used black light bulbs for 40 years. So do I. Yes, I realize that doesn't make it right, but my sis and I have never seen or heard of any damage from them. We've been told tortoises can't see that spectrum of light. Tom disapproves of them. He says they CAN see the light and (I think) he said it disturbs their sleep. When I check on them during the night some are asleep under the bulbs using the heat, the Russian stays away from it, then I remembered they don't care for it warm at night. So she's more comfortable now that I turn it off at night. Anyway the last 2 nights I've used a black light bulb (BLB from now on), on the baby and her bin stayed right between 80 and 85. Now that's exactly what I want. So, frankly, I think the blb will work better for me.
I am trying like hell to do follow Tom's closed chamber dictate. I've mostly raised Gopherus agassizii, never used a closed chamber and I've head started several hundred babies or close to it over the years (or so it seems). But this time I'm fostering that smooth Sulcata, well, 2 actually, so for the first time in my tortoise keeping I am really trying to stay as close to Tom's chambers as I can. Fact, I made a 2 chamber habitat with a hot bright side and a hot humid side, tube was between them. Both have lids. Thought I was making a nice fancy place for her to live. But she spent most of her time in the darn 70 degree tube. Now she's contained on the really humid side and she's eating better and being more active.
One time I had about 20 (give or take)desert babies and they were a lot less trouble than this one little Sulcata. The 2 year old Sulcata, Daisy Mae, now lives in Bob's shed, I mean the tort shed, because she's a horrible brat, I can see Bob's mischievous energy floating around her. Because she couldn't stand being contained in a stock tank, she would push a heavy rock over to the side, climb on the rock, fight her way up the side and over onto the floor. Never saw anything like it, so she's living in the 20'X12' tort shed, and seems happy as can be. She's growing like a weed. Lots of personality, but very shy. So I'm working on it.
Oh, jeez, I've been just going on haven't I? Sorry adios....


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## Yvonne G (Mar 20, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> If I'm chuckling at you forgive me. So I went and counted. I have 11 habitats in the house, all with an MVB and a black light bulb for night time heat. That's some 22 lights, most on timers. Then I have the tort shed, it's got 4 lights on timers, and a pig blanket on a rheostat. Most of the MVB are on timers, so yeah, I know about the switch. giggle. This ain't my first rodeo. I 'think' I just need the one thermostat you told me about for the baby's CHE. I don't like or approve of CHE. I've had 2 animals fried by one. Just f'ing crisp. And my sis has used black light bulbs for 40 years. So do I. Yes, I realize that doesn't make it right, but my sis and I have never seen or heard of any damage from them. We've been told tortoises can't see that spectrum of light. Tom disapproves of them. He says they CAN see the light and (I think) he said it disturbs their sleep. When I check on them during the night some are asleep under the bulbs using the heat, the Russian stays away from it, then I remembered they don't care for it warm at night. So she's more comfortable now that I turn it off at night. Anyway the last 2 nights I've used a black light bulb (BLB from now on), on the baby and her bin stayed right between 80 and 85. Now that's exactly what I want. So, frankly, I think the blb will work better for me.
> I am trying like hell to do follow Tom's closed chamber dictate. I've mostly raised Gopherus agassizii, never used a closed chamber and I've head started several hundred babies or close to it over the years (or so it seems). But this time I'm fostering that smooth Sulcata, well, 2 actually, so for the first time in my tortoise keeping I am really trying to stay as close to Tom's chambers as I can. Fact, I made a 2 chamber habitat with a hot bright side and a hot humid side, tube was between them. Both have lids. Thought I was making a nice fancy place for her to live. But she spent most of her time in the darn 70 degree tube. Now she's contained on the really humid side and she's eating better and being more active.
> One time I had about 20 (give or take)desert babies and they were a lot less trouble than this one little Sulcata. The 2 year old Sulcata, Daisy Mae, now lives in Bob's shed, I mean the tort shed, because she's a horrible brat, I can see Bob's mischievous energy floating around her. Because she couldn't stand being contained in a stock tank, she would push a heavy rock over to the side, climb on the rock, fight her way up the side and over onto the floor. Never saw anything like it, so she's living in the 20'X12' tort shed, and seems happy as can be. She's growing like a weed. Lots of personality, but very shy. So I'm working on it.
> Oh, jeez, I've been just going on haven't I? Sorry adios....



I take my dog, Misty, out two or three times during the night to pee. It is NEVER totally dark outside at night (I live in the country with no lights). Even when the moon is just a sliver, there is some light at night. A black light is just like moon light. All of my tortoises are sleeping at night. None of them comes out and says, "Hm-m-m ... that lighting makes my substrate look like something I want to eat!" No, they sleep at night, they don't come out and eat or wander.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 20, 2016)

O-o-ops! Sorry - I didn't realize the subject category. Sorry for taking it off topic.


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 20, 2016)

She drinks too much water. She'd have to hold it all night if she were mine, I sleep really soundly. You didn't take it off topic. I think David and I did, it just morphed into this temp thing and thermostat. And it looks like I thought I was on the chat, I apologize also....


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## Yvonne G (Mar 20, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> She drinks too much water. She'd have to hold it all night if she were mine, I sleep really soundly.



Believe me, when a 75lb dog bumps your bed, you wake up.


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## lisa127 (Mar 20, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> I take my dog, Misty, out two or three times during the night to pee. It is NEVER totally dark outside at night (I live in the country with no lights). Even when the moon is just a sliver, there is some light at night. A black light is just like moon light. All of my tortoises are sleeping at night. None of them comes out and says, "Hm-m-m ... that lighting makes my substrate look like something I want to eat!" No, they sleep at night, they don't come out and eat or wander.


All I use are black heat lamps.


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 20, 2016)

lol at her bumping the bed. 
blb's are cheap and keep the animal warm consistently. Lisa, it's nice to hear Y and I aren't the only one's. The darn things work good at what we need them for. IMHO


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## lisa127 (Mar 20, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> lol at her bumping the bed.
> blb's are cheap and keep the animal warm consistently. Lisa, it's nice to hear Y and I aren't the only one's. The darn things work good at what we need them for. IMHO


I find they last quite a long time too! I've always used them and always have spares in hand. I tried Che a couple times but just don't like them.


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## Team Gomberg (Mar 20, 2016)

Night heat (CHE BLB etc) is one of the exact topics that reptile peeps tear each other apart over.

Yvonne put into words what I've always thought about BLBs. Moon light and it's never pitch black out. I haven't used them but that was always on my mind.

I personally used a CHE on a thermostat (never without a thermostat) because "I" WANTED IT PITCH BLACK AT NIGHT and the chamber was IN MY bedroom.  I found the CHE I thermostat to work perfect. So it was a win win.

I wouldn't oppose others who use BLBs. I would dialogue with those who use red bulbs. But dialogue, debate, discussion are all good things... Beating with harsh words and demeaning attitudes never profit anyone. 
Obviously, that is harder to interpret through text so I'm mostly speaking in generalities.


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## naturalman91 (Mar 20, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> If I'm chuckling at you forgive me. So I went and counted. I have 11 habitats in the house, all with an MVB and a black light bulb for night time heat. That's some 22 lights, most on timers. Then I have the tort shed, it's got 4 lights on timers, and a pig blanket on a rheostat. Most of the MVB are on timers, so yeah, I know about the switch. giggle. This ain't my first rodeo. I 'think' I just need the one thermostat you told me about for the baby's CHE. I don't like or approve of CHE. I've had 2 animals fried by one. Just f'ing crisp. And my sis has used black light bulbs for 40 years. So do I. Yes, I realize that doesn't make it right, but my sis and I have never seen or heard of any damage from them. We've been told tortoises can't see that spectrum of light. Tom disapproves of them. He says they CAN see the light and (I think) he said it disturbs their sleep. When I check on them during the night some are asleep under the bulbs using the heat, the Russian stays away from it, then I remembered they don't care for it warm at night. So she's more comfortable now that I turn it off at night. Anyway the last 2 nights I've used a black light bulb (BLB from now on), on the baby and her bin stayed right between 80 and 85. Now that's exactly what I want. So, frankly, I think the blb will work better for me.
> I am trying like hell to do follow Tom's closed chamber dictate. I've mostly raised Gopherus agassizii, never used a closed chamber and I've head started several hundred babies or close to it over the years (or so it seems). But this time I'm fostering that smooth Sulcata, well, 2 actually, so for the first time in my tortoise keeping I am really trying to stay as close to Tom's chambers as I can. Fact, I made a 2 chamber habitat with a hot bright side and a hot humid side, tube was between them. Both have lids. Thought I was making a nice fancy place for her to live. But she spent most of her time in the darn 70 degree tube. Now she's contained on the really humid side and she's eating better and being more active.
> One time I had about 20 (give or take)desert babies and they were a lot less trouble than this one little Sulcata. The 2 year old Sulcata, Daisy Mae, now lives in Bob's shed, I mean the tort shed, because she's a horrible brat, I can see Bob's mischievous energy floating around her. Because she couldn't stand being contained in a stock tank, she would push a heavy rock over to the side, climb on the rock, fight her way up the side and over onto the floor. Never saw anything like it, so she's living in the 20'X12' tort shed, and seems happy as can be. She's growing like a weed. Lots of personality, but very shy. So I'm working on it.
> Oh, jeez, I've been just going on haven't I? Sorry adios....



i was just asking because i have a spare thermostat i'd send to you if you needed it lol but since you have so many habitats i think you'd need more then 1 lol i love CHE but that's just me we're all entitled to our own thoughts and opinions as we both said before what works for you may not work for me and vice versa 

do black light bulbs have a focal point like red bulbs i've never used black light bulbs but i've used red light bulbs 



Yvonne G said:


> O-o-ops! Sorry - I didn't realize the subject category. Sorry for taking it off topic.



it's fine no worries. and i know exactly what you mean by when a 75lb dog bumps the bed you wake up lol i have a 82 pound american bull dog/bull terrier mix who is scared of dang near everything and will go flying into the bed shaking and trying to get under the covers to hide lol


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## naturalman91 (Mar 20, 2016)

Team Gomberg said:


> Night heat (CHE BLB etc) is one of the exact topics that reptile peeps tear each other apart over.
> 
> Yvonne put into words what I've always thought about BLBs. Moon light and it's never pitch black out. I haven't used them but that was always on my mind.
> 
> I personally used a CHE on a thermostat (never without a thermostat) because "I" WANTED IT PITCH BLACK AT NIGHT and the chamber was IN MY bedroom.  I found the CHE I thermostat to work perfect. .



mine was in the bedroom to and i wanted it pitch black at night to lol that's why i started using CHE and thermostats now that it's in the living room i suppose it doesn't really matter as long as what ever it was i used worked but i'm so stuck on CHE with thermostat's now i'll probably never go back. your old hydro farm thermostat has made a world of difference to me lol


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## Yvonne G (Mar 20, 2016)

naturalman91 said:


> do black light bulbs have a focal point like red bulbs i've never used black light bulbs but i've used red light bulbs



No. The black lights I buy are regular incandescent bulbs only they are made with dark blue glass, not clear glass.







I think I know which red bulb you're talking about. I use these in my outdoor shed to heat up the shed at night:






The red bulb is NOTHING like the moon light.


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## lisa127 (Mar 20, 2016)

I often use these as they go on sale a lot at the corner pet store.
https://www.google.com/search?q=exo+terra+black+moonglow+bulb&oq=exo+terra+black+moonglow+bulb&aqs=chrome..69i57.18346j0j4&client=tablet-android-samsung&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#q=zilla+black+moonglow+bulb&imgrc=in_MIUSLQmFBtM:


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