# Does this forum condone tortoise flipping?



## BrianWI (Aug 1, 2016)

Does this forum condone tortoise flipping?


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## Tom (Aug 1, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> Does this forum condone tortoise flipping?



What do you mean by flipping? Buying and selling for profit, or flipping them on their backs? Or maybe something else?


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## BrianWI (Aug 1, 2016)

Getting free then selling for $175.


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## mike taylor (Aug 1, 2016)

I'd say that's a bad idea . For us it's more than money . We have them for the love of the animals. Most will breed them and sell the babies to help cover some of the housing cost .


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## Maggie Cummings (Aug 1, 2016)

Oh, I thought he meant something like flipping cows, or whatever


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## Alexio (Aug 1, 2016)

I feel like it would all come down to if there was deception involved. If someone posts that they are trying to re-home their tortoise for free and in a hurry (due to some time related factors) and someone else says they will take it in for a while while they look for a permanent home, that would certainly seem to be a better alternative than simply releasing the tortoise into the wild as many people do. 
This would be different from a person who puts up an add for a tortoise they are trying to re-home to a better home with more space and someone makes it seem like they will be providing this permanent forever home. When really their intention the whole time was to get a free tortoise to sell. So I guess for me it comes to what was the intent, and was their deception. People have been buying low/ getting for free and turning around and selling for profit since people could sell things.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 1, 2016)

The reason I frown upon it is because usually the member's tortoise is a very well-loved animal that they hate to let go, but circumstances dictate the have to find it a new home. I really don't like seeing a spoiled pet going to someone who is only in it for the money. If the member has a chance to give it to someone on the Forum that they've looked into, then they might rest a little easier knowing it is going to a good home. 

A flipper doesn't care who he sells the tortoise to. He just wants to make a buck.


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## dmmj (Aug 1, 2016)

there's no specific rules I can find against it or anything. But most of us frown upon it


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## wellington (Aug 1, 2016)

I don't condone it! Most flippers are dirt bags and don't give good care to the animal they are flipping, because it cuts into their profits. Same goes for animal brokers! They both equal garbage people!


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## RayRay (Aug 1, 2016)

After watching shows about flipping houses, they never seem to do stuff professionally, and that's for expensive houses.

Also I thought you meant helping the tortoise back on its feet if it rolls on its back


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Aug 1, 2016)

If booth party's know the truth . No problem . But if your acting sweet to get the torts for free so you can sell them that's nasty and if you use any type of computer that's a scam !


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## Eric Phillips (Aug 1, 2016)

I just want to be honest, I flip birds on a few occasions As for turtle/tortoises, I've found too much dishonesty and deceit in the whole process. Now if you flip by purchasing a tort from someone because you feel bad for the animals situation or care, nurse them back to good health, and adopt them out to a good home.......I'm game on that flipping subject.....


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## ascott (Aug 1, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> Does this forum condone tortoise flipping?



If you place a dollar amount on a tortoise....someone is looking for that type of tortoise....the transaction occurs, both walk away satisfied with the sell...then that is that.

Folks here sell tortoise...turtle all of the time and for someone to sell a tort for their own profit and then turn around and lay judgement in another for selling as well....is well, a hypocrite plain and simple...playing the moral card while placing a dollar sign on another living thing puts all that do it in the same game...just sayin...


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## Cowboy_Ken (Aug 2, 2016)

I've been unable to receive contact back from the gal who fostered most of my sulcatas while I was recovering from my auto accident. I could, in no way, care for them at the time with a broken neck and multiple broken ribs, but I had no idea she would do this. The worse part of all this is she identifies herself as a tortoise rescue. So in that regard, I don't condone flipping of tortoises at all.


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## ZEROPILOT (Aug 2, 2016)

Cowboy_Ken said:


> I've been unable to receive contact back from the gal who fostered most of my sulcatas while I was recovering from my auto accident. I could, in no way, care for them at the time with a broken neck and multiple broken ribs, but I had no idea she would do this. The worse part of all this is she identifies herself as a tortoise rescue. So in that regard, I don't condone flipping of tortoises at all.


You mean she still has them?


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## Cowboy_Ken (Aug 2, 2016)

ZEROPILOT said:


> You mean she still has them?


I'm not sure. I've only been able to email her. I lack her phone number. She has not bothered to respond to me. This all took place while I was in recovery. From what my understanding was at the time, she took them in with the full understanding that they were fosters. Two forum keepers/members have a total of 7 of mine that they've become very attached to and with my blessings they are welcome to keep them. This third gal has made zero effort at contacting me and from the only conclusion I can draw is that she's hanging on to them until I forget or leave the forum, then she'll be back with some great tortoises to "flip"…


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

I think flipping is naughty.


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## BrianWI (Aug 2, 2016)

OK, so it appears we currently have someone who "adopted" two russians in may for free. Now they have the pair listed on this forum for $175. So they took someones pets who wanted a permanent, loving home for them and are SELLING them 2 months later. A couple of us called attention to it but the posts were deleted. But the OP is being allowed to use the forum to flip them for a profit.

I don't like it.


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## cmacusa3 (Aug 2, 2016)

That's definitely not right!


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## Tom (Aug 2, 2016)

Eric Phillips said:


> I just want to be honest, I flip birds on a few occasions .



Me too. Usually while driving. Or when watching politicians tell their lies on TV.


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## leigti (Aug 2, 2016)

maggie3fan said:


> Oh, I thought he meant something like flipping cows, or whatever


You tip a cow, not flip it


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

If this girl is making a profit like this, which seems to be the case, I think it is despicable and sincerely hope the forum does not condone such practices.
However, we don't know the full story and I hope that questions are being asked behind the scenes by our moderators.
But most of all I hope the two Russian tortoises in question can be found a genuine loving owner to go to live with.


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## BrianWI (Aug 2, 2016)

leigti said:


> You tip a cow, not flip it


I flip em... spatula.


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## dmmj (Aug 2, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> OK, so it appears we currently have someone who "adopted" two russians in may for free. Now they have the pair listed on this forum for $175. So they took someones pets who wanted a permanent, loving home for them and are SELLING them 2 months later. A couple of us called attention to it but the posts were deleted. But the OP is being allowed to use the forum to flip them for a profit.
> 
> I don't like it.


the post in that thread were deleted because there is no chit-chat allowed on for sale threads. If theOP is doing something wrong I don't know but we have to follow the rules there is no specific rule against adopting a free tortoise and then selling it later


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## BrianWI (Aug 2, 2016)

dmmj said:


> the post in that thread were deleted because there is no chit-chat allowed on for sale threads. If theOP is doing something wrong I don't know but we have to follow the rules there is no specific rule against adopting a free tortoise and then selling it later


I'd probably start such a rule. Seems most here think it is a scummy thing to do. I would hope calling someone out for despicable behavior isn't deemed "chit chat".


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

The OP posted the thread in the Adoptions section where comments are allowed.
The comments were made there. 
It has since been moved after the comments were deleted, i think.
So it seems that the forum doesn't condone it but won't tell anyone if we know it's happening ?
We'll let members sell to these people ?


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## Yvonne G (Aug 2, 2016)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> The OP posted the thread in the Adoptions section where comments are allowed.
> The comments were made there.
> It has since been moved after the comments were deleted, i think.
> So it seems that the forum doesn't condone it but won't tell anyone if we know it's happening ?
> We'll let members sell to these people ?



This isn't true. I just now looked at the thread and it definitely IS in the 'for sale' section. Anytime someone wants money for a tortoise, even if they call it an adoption, we put it in the 'for sale' section.:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-m-f-pair-wi.144686/

There were two comments, one made by Brian and the other by Adam. Both those comments are still there, but they have been made invisible to the general membership because of the 'no posts in the 'for sale' section rule.

We don't know this person. We have no way of knowing her intention when she took in the tortoises. We don't know what has happened to her situation to make her feel the need to now find new homes for her animals. All we can do is hope things work out ok for all parties involved. I would feel terrible if this type of discussion was going on about me because I had to find new homes for all my animals because my husband died, or I lost my house or job, or for whatever reason. Try to be more charitable.


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## dmmj (Aug 2, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> I'd probably start such a rule. Seems most here think it is a scummy thing to do. I would hope calling someone out for despicable behavior isn't deemed "chit chat".


let me explain no comments are allowed at all on the for sale thread I just use the term Chit Chat but no comments whatsoever are allowed and how will you enforce such a rule? Because I'd really like to know


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## ZEROPILOT (Aug 2, 2016)

Was/is this person also selling other animals?


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## dmmj (Aug 2, 2016)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> The OP posted the thread in the Adoptions section where comments are allowed.
> The comments were made there.
> It has since been moved after the comments were deleted, i think.
> So it seems that the forum doesn't condone it but won't tell anyone if we know it's happening ?
> We'll let members sell to these people ?


the thread was always in the for sale Section I did not move it I don't know of any other moderators who did so I don't know what you're talking about Adam. but the rules of that section are simple if you charge a fee it's a for sale thread if there's no fee involved it's an adoption she charge $175 so it's in the for sale thread


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> This isn't true. I just now looked at the thread and it definitely IS in the 'for sale' section. Anytime someone wants money for a tortoise, even if they call it an adoption, we put it in the 'for sale' section.:
> 
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-m-f-pair-wi.144686/
> 
> ...


What isn't true ?
And I did post that we don't know the full story or what was happening behind the scenes and that the torts going to a good home was the most important thing.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Was/is this person also selling other animals?


Yes.


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## dmmj (Aug 2, 2016)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Was/is this person also selling other animals?


 She apparently adopted two Russian tortoises a few months ago and now she is selling them according to her ad she is selling all the reptiles so I imagine this is a lifestyle change circumstance but I have no evidence one way or the other she's not breaking any rules so the ad will stay


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## ZEROPILOT (Aug 2, 2016)

ZEROPILOT said:


> Was/is this person also selling other animals?


If it's the member selling ALL of her animals, it's possible that she is ill or has some sort of emergency situation going on.
BTW, I found it in the "WANTED" section.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

dmmj said:


> She apparently adopted two Russian tortoises a few months ago and now she is selling them according to her ad she is selling all the reptiles so I imagine this is a lifestyle change circumstance but I have no evidence one way or the other she's not breaking any rules so the ad will stay


If just a lifestyle change why try to make a profit of a couple of hundred dollars on the torts alone ?


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## JoesMum (Aug 2, 2016)

On the non-tort forum where I am moderator we have a similar no chat rule in our jobs forum. 

Members wanting to debate salaries, terms or whatever simply create a thread in the General Chat forum and link to the thread in that. 

It works well for us. Flipping suspects could be discussed in a similar way on here if the mods permit it.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

ZEROPILOT said:


> If it's the member selling ALL of her animals, it's possible that she is ill or has some sort of emergency situation going on.


So why sell animals you got for free at a huge profit ?
But you're right we don't know the situation which is why we asked.
i asked if the forum could help her in any way to keep the animals in question.


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## ZEROPILOT (Aug 2, 2016)

Maybe she is desperate for money.
We can only guess.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 2, 2016)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> So why sell animals you got for free at a huge profit ?
> But you're right we don't know the situation which is why we asked.
> i asked if the forum could help her in any way to keep the animals in question.



We don't know what's running through her mind. Maybe she feels the animals will go to a good home if someone has to pay for them.


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> We don't know what's running through her mind. Maybe she feels the animals will go to a good home if someone has to pay for them.


Which is why i politely asked if we could help.
I hope they do find a good home.
I feel sad now.


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## dmmj (Aug 2, 2016)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> If just a lifestyle change why try to make a profit of a couple of hundred dollars on the torts alone ?


 I don't know her situation but she could have spent money on vet visits and Medicine lights things like that maybe she wants to recoup some of her classes she put on free tortoises but I don't know one way or the other so I'm not going to pass judgment on her


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## Tidgy's Dad (Aug 2, 2016)

dmmj said:


> I don't know her situation but she could have spent money on vet visits and Medicine lights things like that maybe she wants to recoup some of her classes she put on free tortoises but I don't know one way or the other so I'm not going to pass judgment on her


So we ask gently what the problem is and try to find solutions for her to keep her tortoises, make suggestions of how she can hold onto her beloved animals or at least comfort her with words of solace.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 2, 2016)

I don't much care for flipping at all, but not for the fact that someone is making $$. I don't like it as the intermediary owner tends to perpetrate many falsehoods and are genuinely ignorant of the animals history, AND that is the bad thing. It's not about the money, it's about the animal, and the honesty of the seller.

I have looked into buying some tortoises and the seller just makes $hit up about the tortoises' history to make the sale. I think @BrianWI is right to call someone out for gaming the system and essentially being false in intent, if indeed that person acquired those tortoises as a "forever" home.

Even with houses and cars where flipping is a thing. If you like the house or car and the price is right, then buy it. If the house was modified withOUT permits or safety oversight, well that is criminal, actually criminal. Just because there are not laws about flipping animals does not make the falsehoods less criminal in my POV, I just can't get compensation back with lawyers and inspectors. I get screwed.

There are legitimate flippers out there getting screwed themselves. Some people have been buying and selling for 20-30 years and "everyone" knows they flip. That attracts A$$holes that will slip bad (sick, stolen, intentionally wrong Latin identification) in with other, then the legitimate flipper ends up getting screwed, or passing it along. A legitimate flipper tells you what they do know and what they have been told by the earlier owner. They might even talk about the specific risks associated with the tortoise you are interested in.


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## BrianWI (Aug 2, 2016)

dmmj said:


> I don't know her situation but she could have spent money on vet visits and Medicine lights things like that maybe she wants to recoup some of her classes she put on free tortoises but I don't know one way or the other so I'm not going to pass judgment on her


Then she should be honest about it upfront. "I am selling 2 Russian Tortoises I got for free two months ago because I spent vet money on them. Receipts available". ENABLING them by deleting the comments of those calling them out and moving the post is bad form and is CONDONING the behavior by your action.


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## dmmj (Aug 2, 2016)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> So we ask gently what the problem is and try to find solutions for her to keep her tortoises, make suggestions of how she can hold onto her beloved animals or at least comfort her with words of solace.


that's what private conversations are for since there's no comment on the for sale threads


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 2, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> Does this forum condone tortoise flipping?



The forum as it's own entity has know general way to know, and the specific case that brought this up is now being addressed, thanks to you. This is a critical topic for people who look to build breeding colonies of any animal. I'm really glad you created this thread with so specific an example.


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## dmmj (Aug 2, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> Then she should be honest about it upfront. "I am selling 2 Russian Tortoises I got for free two months ago because I spent vet money on them. Receipts available". ENABLING them by deleting the comments of those calling them out and moving the post is bad form and is CONDONING the behavior by your action.


actually deleted the posts are following the rules but I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this onea


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## BrianWI (Aug 2, 2016)

Tidgy's Dad said:


> The OP posted the thread in the Adoptions section where comments are allowed.
> The comments were made there.
> It has since been moved after the comments were deleted, i think.
> So it seems that the forum doesn't condone it but won't tell anyone if we know it's happening ?
> We'll let members sell to these people ?


@dmmj


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## ZEROPILOT (Aug 2, 2016)

I actually P.M.ed her a few days ago before I read any of this asking if she was O.K.
My very first thought was helping her. Not anger.
And no. She didn't respond.


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## dmmj (Aug 2, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> @dmmj


Yes? You rang


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## BrianWI (Aug 2, 2016)

dmmj said:


> Yes? You rang


Read the post above.


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## ZEROPILOT (Aug 2, 2016)

I've let a few of my tortoise friends go to other members. Most for very little money. Some for free, but ALWAYS because I knew that they would be well cared for.
I would be pissed to find out that they got flipped unless it was a very good reason.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 2, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> Then she should be honest about it upfront. "I am selling 2 Russian Tortoises I got for free two months ago because I spent vet money on them. Receipts available". ENABLING them by deleting the comments of those calling them out and moving the post is bad form and is CONDONING the behavior by your action.



We can't pick and choose which posts to delete and which to keep when the rule is "no posts other than the original, in the For Sale thread." She was asking $$ so the thread was moved to the 'for sale' section. Once it was there, the other posts had to be removed. We try to be fair and follow the rules - same rules for everyone. Not bad form at all. If you wanted to call her out on "flipping" and get her opinion, a PM would have been nice, but you could have also started your own thread somewhere where all members could respond. (like you did here, for example)


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## Tom (Aug 2, 2016)

What this boils down to is honesty, integrity and trustworthiness. Lying or being deceitful in any way is wrong in any endeavor. Getting a free, or cheap, tortoise and selling it at a profit to a good home is perfectly fine, as long as everyone was honest throughout the whole deal. Buy low, sell high is what made America great in the first place. Interference with this concept is one of the many problems ruining this country.

To say that all brokers and sellers are bad people is completely and totally wrong. I know many brokers and sellers that are kind decent people that take very good care of their animals. They broker other breeders animals to help the other breeders move their inventory, and they do it to make some money to pay their bills and keep their operation going. Making a profit is not wrong or evil in anyway.


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## BrianWI (Aug 2, 2016)

Tom said:


> What this boils down to is honesty, integrity and trustworthiness. Lying or being deceitful in any way is wrong in any endeavor. Getting a free, or cheap, tortoise and selling it at a profit to a good home is perfectly fine, as long as everyone was honest throughout the whole deal. Buy low, sell high is what made America great in the first place. Interference with this concept is one of the many problems ruining this country.
> 
> To say that all brokers and sellers are bad people is completely and totally wrong. I know many brokers and sellers that are kind decent people that take very good care of their animals. They broker other breeders animals to help the other breeders move their inventory, and they do it to make some money to pay their bills and keep their operation going. Making a profit is not wrong or evil in anyway.


You are off topic. This isn't about selling torts. This was about taking someone's animals who wanted them to have a good home and then profiting off of them two months later. She betrayed that person's trust. She did not follow the original owners intentions. And if she made a mistake in taking them somehow, she certainly does not deserve a profit. If you don't have morals that question this behavior, maybe you should. And maybe you should stop trying to put words into other peoples' mouths just so you can argue.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 2, 2016)

@Tom - I think the flipping in this thread is not by brokers, but rather by lurkers who never post and only join because they saw an ad for a free tortoise. We don't really know their intentions, but it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I see a brand new member responding with their first post in answer to a free tortoise ad.

And, Brian, there was absolutely nothing offensive about Tom's post. He just misunderstood what you were referring to in your original post.


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## BrianWI (Aug 2, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> @Tom - I think the flipping in this thread is not by brokers, but rather by lurkers who never post and only join because they saw an ad for a free tortoise. We don't really no their intentions, but it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I see a brand new member responding with their first post in answer to a free tortoise ad.



Exactly. If you buy 10 sulcata for 400 bucks and resell them, great. If you tell someone you will find their pet a home for them and charge a fee, that is fine too. You tell someone you will take their free animal and care for it for its lifetime and then turn around and sell it, you are a scumbag.


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## dmmj (Aug 2, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> Read the post above.


thank you but I already did, as a moderator I try to read all the threads and posts to make sute the rules are being followed threads that I'm personally involved in I read every single post but thank you for bringing that to my attention just in case you're wondering if I had not read it. Like I said when I logged on it was already in the for sale Section if a moderator moved it, they were simply following the rules as I continued following the rules by deleting any comments on the for sale thead and locking it. If you think moderators following the rules are encouraging or and endorsing something I don't know what to tell you. since anything I say will more than likely never change your opinion one way or the other I'm going to refrain from responding any further quotes you may make of me unless any new information is provided I don't have a whole lot of times of the day for this pointless back and forth. If you feel the need to continue responding to this particular quote feel free to do so but my ego's healthy enough that I don't have to have the last word


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## BrianWI (Aug 2, 2016)

You ask me, then try to scold me? Are mods to act like this here with thinly veiled insults? I don't think much of you either, even less now. Happy?


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## Yvonne G (Aug 2, 2016)

Oh man! Please. Why do posts in the debate section always have to end up like this? I answered Adam's post so David saw no need to respond to it. *Then several posts later* you 'alert' David and want him to read it, but you failed to quote the post you wanted him to read. This was a total misunderstanding. 

Settle down and get back in calm debate mode. This is why so many threads get closed. It really is quite possible to post back and forth without ruffling feathers.


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## BrianWI (Aug 2, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> @Tom -
> 
> And, Brian, there was absolutely nothing offensive about Tom's post. He just misunderstood what you were referring to in your original post.



No, he didn't misunderstand. He tried to twist things again. This isn't the first time. Coincidence it is aimed at me again? Not likely. We have mods here trying to be insulting as well, yet keep it a little under the radar.

These people would never make it in real life.


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## BrianWI (Aug 2, 2016)

Yvonne G said:


> Oh man! Please. Why do posts in the debate section always have to end up like this? I answered Adam's post so David saw no need to respond to it. *Then several posts later* you 'alert' David and want him to read it, but you failed to quote the post you wanted him to read. This was a total misunderstanding.
> 
> Settle down and get back in calm debate mode. This is why so many threads get closed. It really is quite possible to post back and forth without ruffling feathers.


Then you admit you misunderstood, you don't start with the petty little insults like a worm.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 2, 2016)

To sum it up:

Sellers and brokers - ok, if up front
Flippers - not ok unless honest about what they're doing

I'm closing the thread before it gets down and dirty.


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