# Turtle & Tortoise Gifting



## AustinASU

I know in order to keep breeding projects going everyone will need some sort of income to help offset expenses to keep their turtle/tortoise breeding projects going. Electricity, water, food supplies, and vet care ....for all owners/breeders we know that all of these add up in a hurry especially the last one. But here is my thoughts I have been pondering over the last year, out of all the breeding and profitable gains we earn from selling off hatchling/sub-adults....how much is really given back. Time and time again I see in the general reptile world ....leopard geckos and ball pythons etc...nothing but talk about profitable gains and newer methods to grow faster to sell faster (it's really sickening). The reason i'm bringing this up on here is to help people really evaluate what breeding or owning a turtle/tortoise is about....it's not at all about making tons of money or gaining social status...we are way better than that. Our shelled friends deserve a fighting chance in this world and deserve the best ( no cutting corners). So if your not planning to breed, give your turtle/tortoise the best care it can receive....this doesn't mean reading documents online and saying done deal....no get active and talk with other shelled owners "i promise you that you will learn something new!" If you feel even more driven to help our shelled friends, donate to rescues or TSA (turtle survival alliance) be proactive! 

For breeders: conservation is of the utmost importance. What I mean by conservation is not find a certain species of chelonian and breed them, for the most part many people can do this. The only way to insure conservation is to inspire the youth, we understand as adults why we must save these species....but kids these days don't have a clue of whats going on in the world outside of the video game/movie realm...and thats the sad honest truth. So get involved with kids, get into outreach groups or get schools permission to show off your animals ( if anyone needs help with how to do this let me know as I can help guide you). My final and last note is to give back to your community, inspire people about our fellow chelonian species and if people are really into their care....gift them a species (yes i said it...give....as in no money). I know many will be against this whole gifting idea as sometimes things can go sour....but in all honesty think about all the animals you've sold in the past and ask yourself if the "people you sold them to" really took care of them (i.e. are they still alive). Here's an example of a gifting that took place with my buddy. His friend in florida breeds Indian Spotted Turtles, for those of you that don't these are ESA listed species which does not allow sales across state lines. Knowing this my friend was distraught as he had all of the breeding facilities set up for this species and all the financial backing to get going. Well there was a loop hole to where he could be gifted the turtles ( which means he could not pay for the turtle or the shipping, but the sender had to pay for all fees) and it be legal under ESA distributing laws. And guess what out of that act of kindness there is now a new established breeding colony. Random acts of kindness and some personal sacrifice is the key to successful breeding of all of our chelonian friends.

Pheww that was a lot to say, but I felt like it needed to be said. Sorry if i stepped on toes as this is in no way directed towards any single individual.



Godbless,
Austin


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## AustinASU

Anyone have any personal stories of giving back or gifting chelonians?


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## Baoh

It is "about" whatever one wants it to be about. I breed for profit. I keep for personal enjoyment. I educate and give demonstrations to perpetuate appreciation for the animals.

I "give back" all of the time in several ways, but talking about specific examples, for me, sullies the purity of the acts performed.


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## AustinASU

That a great example Baoh! And yes breeding for profit isn't bad, it's when people breed and don't give anything back to the animals well being or to the community. Giving someone a sully or a russian tortoise, the look on people faces is priceless (on the ones who truly wanted one).


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## Baoh

What do you mean by well being? I do not think anything at all is owed back to the community. If one wants to give to the community, and I am not yet sure exactly what we mean by that, so be it. If not, so be it. Giving someone a tortoise as a gift is also not something one should or has to do, either. In other words, one's motivations for whatever level of activity one wants to pursue are personal and there is no obligation to do anything beyond providing for the tortoise's needs as a ward or owner. If one wants to do more, okay. If one wants to call it a day at providing the care for the animal one keeps, okay.

Giving back to whom and why? What is one "getting" such that there is a "back" to giving back? It does not sicken me as long as there is no negative effect elsewhere in the system besides requiring some change in the resource inputs involved.

As a breeder, conservation is not of utmost importance to me. I like that others are so interested, and I might be in other circumstances, but I am not. I breed because I want to. I breed to see them breed. I breed to make money. I have loftier ideals for breeding, but those do not directly drive the day to day activities of my upkeep. They are more like add-on whimsical musings for me.

Heck, the hamiltonii are not even really endangered despite being on the ESA. Not that I want them to be or anything. I work with a ton of Indian Biologists, so I get accounts from them like I do from Africans who grew up around African tortoise species and take photos for me when they visit their homelands.

Growing faster and breeding better is simply continuous process improvement to me.


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## Team Gomberg

At the beginning of this year I set up a 125 gallon turtle aquarium in a special needs classroom. I created a thread about it and posted pictures.
TFO member Gerards saw the thread and offered to donate a 4" albino RES female as our first turtle. He gifted it to us and even shipped it from FL to CA. We were super blessed by him. The kids all enjoyed her. A few months later we were gifted a female southern painted for the tank. The 2 turtles brought the kids a lot of joy. If anyone knows, these kids loves aquariums. It makes a huge difference in their day to watch the fish and turtles swimming. 


--On a side note I've had some difficulty getting the albino to eat and gain weight. I brought her home for now to see if I can get her to put back on weight..but that's another story. 

Heather
Sent from my Android TFO app


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## AustinASU

Team Gomberg said:


> At the beginning of this year I set up a 125 gallon turtle aquarium in a special needs classroom. I created a thread about it and posted pictures.
> TFO member Gerards saw the thread and offered to donate a 4" albino RES female as our first turtle. He gifted it to us and even shipped it from FL to CA. We were super blessed by him. The kids all enjoyed her. A few months later we were gifted a female southern painted for the tank. The 2 turtles brought the kids a lot of joy. If anyone knows, these kids loves aquariums. It makes a huge difference in their day to watch the fish and turtles swimming.
> 
> 
> --On a side note I've had some difficulty getting the albino to eat and gain weight. I brought her home for now to see if I can get her to put back on weight..but that's another story.
> 
> Heather
> Sent from my Android TFO app




Thats so awesome!!! I bet the look of excitement on the kids faces is beyond priceless. Very heartwarming to know that there are people like you and Gerard out there to make things happen like this. 


BTW how is the RES doing?


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## Team Gomberg

Ya, Gerard was awesome for doing that. The kids miss her (although some of the teachers were freaked out by the red eyes). I really don't like that she isn't in the tank since that was what she was sent to us for. I waited months before making the decision to bring her home. She stared to loose too much weight and I couldn't be there daily to ensure she ate separately.

I can't get her to eat in a separate tub. I've tried everything. At times i thought she was eating but she lost more weight so I don't think she was. I even offer the food she was fed with him. Right now I'm giving her a break and not disturbing her. She is in a pond with a lot of water hyacinth for cover. She hides all the time right now. I toss some food in daily but she has been so stressed that I'm going to leave her alone for a few weeks to get comfortable. Hopefully she is eating under the safety of the plants. 

Heather
Sent from my Android TFO app


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## wellington

Great thread AustinASU. the selfish, will stay selfish, others that aren't, will see this and get inspired. I only have my pets, that are very well taken care of. The best I can do for the world of tortoises and turtles, well, I have rescued two, a Russian and a RES. I have played turtle taxi for several rescued Boxies that needed to reach their home in another state and my yearly donations go only to animals. As for the human part, I don't have any torts to give away, but I do what I can to try and get better care info out to the stores, reptile vets and even other websites and owners.


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## Yvonne G

I "give back" by taking in unwanted, abused, injured, etc. turtles and tortoises, rehabbing them and then finding them good homes.

I breed because it is a very big challenge to me to get the Manouria to nest and breed. This isn't the easiest thing to do, and I have been working at it for over 18 years.

I don't believe in "gifting" any animal. Keeping an animal is a big responsibility, and one that each individual keeper needs to think about and consider before they take on an animal. Having one thrust upon you as a gift might be a very bad idea because you weren't ready to accept the responsibility. In some cases the gifted animal suffers.


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## Kameo37

You know, there are always a billion different ways to look at things. I don't plan to breed my sulcata when it grows up and I hope my kids don't either.  I *might* want to breed my ball python to another het albino...really just because I WANT an albino ball for myself. The rest I would sell for a nominal fee. I don't have aspirations beyond that though. I think if you are a big time tortoise breeder (or reptile breeder) it would probably be good karma to gift a few here and there. Maybe do a few school or group presentations. Do you have to? Well, obviously not. I also think that taking care of the animals you keep and sending healthy animals into the world earns you some karma points, too.  
I'm happy that this is even a thing breeders and keepers think about. We have 5 different species of reptiles in the house right now. We are known as the "zoo." Even with that little (compared to some), we do quite a few "educational presentations" to other homeschoolers and friends and family. Nothing big or formal, but I feel like I do something good---getting people to see reptiles as great pets, that have specific needs and are NOT disposable! 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using TortForum mobile app


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## AustinASU

Completely understand on the gifting, what I meant by gifting is to give to those who well deserve it (people who have or plan on doing great things for our shelled friends). Definately a bad deal to just give a tortoise to a random john doe....that's a no go for sure. 

Wow 18yrs, thats true dedication!



Yvonne G said:


> I "give back" by taking in unwanted, abused, injured, etc. turtles and tortoises, rehabbing them and then finding them good homes.
> 
> I breed because it is a very big challenge to me to get the Manouria to nest and breed. This isn't the easiest thing to do, and I have been working at it for over 18 years.
> 
> I don't believe in "gifting" any animal. Keeping an animal is a big responsibility, and one that each individual keeper needs to think about and consider before they take on an animal. Having one thrust upon you as a gift might be a very bad idea because you weren't ready to accept the responsibility. In some cases the gifted animal suffers.




Great attitude wellington, sometimes people forget that giving back doesn't mean forking out your profits...most of the time you'll find it's just lending a hand to help out with adoptions and events. And you are right the selfish don't stray to far from the ways, mostly they view animals as a right of property instead of a an animal that has been given a chance to live life to the fullest. 



wellington said:


> Great thread AustinASU. the selfish, will stay selfish, others that aren't, will see this and get inspired. I only have my pets, that are very well taken care of. The best I can do for the world of tortoises and turtles, well, I have rescued two, a Russian and a RES. I have played turtle taxi for several rescued Boxies that needed to reach their home in another state and my yearly donations go only to animals. As for the human part, I don't have any torts to give away, but I do what I can to try and get better care info out to the stores, reptile vets and even other websites and owners.


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## Anthony P

Great input everyone.

I wanted to also take a second to respond to Boah's thoughts. I personally have completely conflicting ideas for what I want to do with chelonian keeping. However, I think your upfront answer and outlook are great. I really respect your viewpoint and think its really important in this particular thread. Your honesty is refreshing.

As far as the "gifting" stuff, there are pros and cons, like with everything. I don't believe gifting large species like C. Sulcata are not great animals to gift out. I will probably be gifting the two little Kinosternon baurii that I hatched a few weeks ago. Like the sulcata, they are cheap, so I won't miss the profits, but I do know that these are a great species that can be a great first turtle for someone. This way, they can still learn from the animal, maybe teach others in the process, and because of the animal's small size, chances are better it won't end up on Craigslist as a MBD nightmare in 3 years. Plus, if you do this small time, like I do haha, you can pick and choose who gets the hatchlings. It's tougher to do that if you are hatching hundreds of sulcatas, so it's comparing apples to I don't know what.


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## Baoh

Thank you, Anthony. I think there is plenty of room for multiple drivers for multiple people for why they do what they do. I would say people should exercise caution with their thought processes on this sort of thing, as it can sometimes become a rationalization for a false sense of superiority or self-righteousness surrounding what is probably just a given individual's pet reason. The self-aware can probably do well and avoid that, though.


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## Anthony P

So well put. Completely agree.


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## AustinASU

Baoh said:


> Thank you, Anthony. I think there is plenty of room for multiple drivers for multiple people for why they do what they do. I would say people should exercise caution with their thought processes on this sort of thing, as it can sometimes become a rationalization for a false sense of superiority or self-righteousness surrounding what is probably just a given individual's pet reason. The self-aware can probably do well and avoid that, though.



Well put!!


And i agree with you on that Anthony with sullies....lord knows how many are going to be in adoption homes in the next ten years.


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## yagyujubei

When did "gifting" become a word? What's the difference between "gifting" and giving? Come on, start conversating.


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## Baoh

yagyujubei said:


> When did "gifting" become a word? What's the difference between "gifting" and giving? Come on, start conversating.



Not sure on the former. I heard it more from British folks both over here and in GB. I would say gifting is a type of giving. Giving a gift. Giving is more broad, I would think.

Huzzah!


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## Lil-Star

I only have experience of this as a bearded dragon breeder, I have regularly for several years gifted dragons that I have bred, to families who lost their pets brought from unscrupulous breeders and directly to trusted breeders also.

I have a friend who regularly borrows my dragons to take into his sons school but would love to learn more about this for myself if you wouldn't mind sharing your experience 


1.1.0 - Indian Stars


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## Kapidolo Farms

AustinASU said:


> Anyone have any personal stories of giving back or gifting chelonians?



Yeah, so what's your story of giving back? 

Will


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## Yvonne G

I'm not sure you understood Baoh's use of the word "sullies" in post #3, Austin. Because you came right back and referred to sulcatas by their nickname. When he used sullies he meant, lowers or dirties. In other words, when you do a charitable act, you don't talk about it or try to glorify it, or 'sully' the act by taking credit for it, you keep it to yourself.


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## Irish

I was gifted a 6 year old Greek Ibera from a man who took as good care of her as he could. He thought it was a male, and it turned out to be a female. I was blessed, and inspired. My designs are set, and I am moving towards a well constructed, predator proof pen and breeding. I have since then acquired a male. This whole process could not make me happier. My wife shakes her head, but my kids enjoy it with me, and we are all learning. I have taken my tort to school and taught lessons to my classes to bring them a broader understanding. I do this because I am excited. When my breeding attempts are successful, I plan to gift to my friends that I trust because they have the same passion for animals that I do. It is a sharing that is intimate, and a bond that is continually supportive, which is unlike anything a breeder for profit will ever enjoy or ever fully understand because it is totally outside their practical profit-minded sensibility, kind of like asking a non-believer to explain their understanding of faith. There are better things in this world than money, and through a selfless gift, my kids are learning this.


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## tortadise

I do this all the time. Literally giving tortoises to people. As well in many other respects. I feel information and knowledge is a huge place to start giving. You never know which little kid or even adult could become a pioneer or "Steve Erwin" conservationists. It also takes a great deal of self k owl edge to not gift too much to people. If you set a norm of being kind and giving. Many will seek to take advantages or mislabel the "giver" in an unfitting title.


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## AustinASU

tortadise said:


> I do this all the time. Literally giving tortoises to people. As well in many other respects. I feel information and knowledge is a huge place to start giving. You never know which little kid or even adult could become a pioneer or "Steve Erwin" conservationists. It also takes a great deal of self k owl edge to not gift too much to people. If you set a norm of being kind and giving. Many will seek to take advantages or mislabel the "giver" in an unfitting title.




You nailed what i meant to say to the "T" kelly. I did give some ornate's to an individual once to get their feet wet with turtle care. Now the guy 4yrs later dedicates a lot of his time to captive breeding native species  Sometimes all it takes is just a little spark to get the fire going.


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## nate.mann

Yvonne G said:


> I'm not sure you understood Baoh's use of the word "sullies" in post #3, Austin. Because you came right back and referred to sulcatas by their nickname. When he used sullies he meant, lowers or dirties. In other words, when you do a charitable act, you don't talk about it or try to glorify it, or 'sully' the act by taking credit for it, you keep it to yourself.



agreed with Yvonne and Boah. 


0.1.0 Russian
1.0.0 Blue Pit/American Bulldog
Chive On!


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## Anthony P

yagyujubei said:


> When did "gifting" become a word? What's the difference between "gifting" and giving? Come on, start conversating.



I thought, probably because I am a naive American, that legislation like the American Endangered Species Act, brought about the term "gifting." I surmised that this came about from the terminology within that legislation that says that listed animals can only cross state lines as a "gift," and not by sale, trade, etc. I don't think the laws say the word "gift," but you get what I mean


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## Kapidolo Farms

Anthony P said:


> yagyujubei said:
> 
> 
> 
> When did "gifting" become a word? What's the difference between "gifting" and giving? Come on, start conversating.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought, probably because I am a naive American, that legislation like the American Endangered Species Act, brought about the term "gifting." I surmised that this came about from the terminology within that legislation that says that listed animals can only cross state lines as a "gift," and not by sale, trade, etc. I don't think the laws say the word "gift," but you get what I mean
Click to expand...


That is some serious insightfulness Anthony.

Will


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