# Critique my cage!



## JohnMcD (Jun 20, 2009)

This is the bin that I set up for my future Redfoot Tort. I'm 99.9% theres _SOMETHING_ wrong with the setup, so please tell me what is wrong and how I can change it, but please dont be rude. 







Here it looks like the dirt is moldy or dry.. but that is just the way the flash made it look.





In this the top is the humidity and the bottom is the temp. Ignore the high and low temp/humidty readings as they are from the store and in the hot car.





The substrate is organic top soil, play sand, and sphagnum peat moss.
The scattered plants are clover (I need more plants, any reccomendations of types/stores/websites?)

Im also confused on what I should do about lighting, I've heard mixed views on UVB lights, and I am setting up the light later today, and will post my temp/humidity readings on that end of the enclosure tonight.


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## Seiryu (Jun 20, 2009)

Looks good but I agree more plants!

http://www.redfoots.com/main.htm tons of info on redfoots.

They will need a basking spot (about 90 degrees F). Looking at the setup it seems you'd have to hang it.

Besides the plants which redfoots.com will tell you to use i like it. Simple and has hides etc. How big is it anyways? pictures make some things look much smaller than they are.

I think you need a UVB light as well. 5.0's work good. 2.0's are basically just light and give little to no UVB. 10's is probably too much for a redfoot. But I am sure others will let you know.


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## JohnMcD (Jun 20, 2009)

Thanks, thats where I have been getting most of my info, and it has helped a lot! I meant to say setting up my basking light when I just said setting up my light.

I realized that all I have right now that is the correct wattage is a red bulb (Exo-Terra), are red bulbs bad in any way for tortoises? I just ordered a sunglow but if I get the tort before the bulb arrives, all I've got is the red one..


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## Itort (Jun 20, 2009)

This looks good. May suggest you put somemore sphagum moss in hides. I believe rfs don't recieve alot of uvb in wild (actually 1 to 2 percent) recieving most their vit D from animal portion of diet. I suggest a CHE for heat souce.


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## Yvonne G (Jun 20, 2009)

Rude??? Us?? NEVER!!! :shy:

I LIKE it a lot. And I never thought about using the lid like that to partially cover the habitat. What a good idea. 

Yvonne


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## JohnMcD (Jun 20, 2009)

emysemys said:


> Rude??? Us?? NEVER!!! :shy:



I didnt mean you were! I just dont want people to go 'Terrible!! BLAAH READ MORE!'

Thanks for all of your complements, I'm glad I am doing it right. Itort, I do have more moist moss in the hides, I dont think its the common 'pulled apart' kind as this seems to be ground up.. but I believe it will do the job with humidity. As for the CHE, is it better than a bulb for the tortoise? In my very tortoise uneducated opinion it makes no differance, besides the large price tag on the CHE. But if it truely is better for the tort I'm willing to dish out the bills


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## Seiryu (Jun 20, 2009)

I don't go by wattage in terms of bulbs. It all depends how far you have it from the enclosure. Like a 100w far away isnt going to do 90degrees. Just have to test it and see. I want to say for my basilisk enclosure. My 100w for one end is 16-18" from the basking spot. And I have a 75w on the other thats 12-14" from the top. Both give about 92-96 degrees F heat at their respective heights.

And at least here in Michigan, you can return bulbs to PetSmart. So try one and see what it gets the temps too and take it back if it's not right. (Ask them if you can return bulbs first though to make sure!)

Oh and do NOT get the heat bulbs that coil around. Just get the regular looking ones. Or you could go with MVB, but im not sure if that's too much UVB for a redfoot. (MVB are the heat and UVB in one bulbs).


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## Maggie Cummings (Jun 20, 2009)

It's too small. 
Remember that Redfoots live in the forest so their natural light is dark. I wouldn't waste my money on UVB bulbs at all. I'd get a hot bulb for basking and a black bulb for nighttime warmth. I'm not a big fan of plants in the enclosure because they take up space and the tortoise just smashes them down. If you're getting a hatchling then you can use plants but a bigger tort will just wreck them. Be sure that you take your new animal outside as often as possible. About 20 minutes a day is what would be about right...Then you don't need to worry about a UVB bulb...
I'd get a bunch of moss and pile it over about half the bin. Make your substrate moist and get the moss all moist and that's your atmosphere. 
I LOVE being rude but made a no rude promise...so you got lucky this time...


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## JohnMcD (Jun 20, 2009)

Seiryu said:


> I don't go by wattage in terms of bulbs. It all depends how far you have it from the enclosure. Like a 100w far away isnt going to do 90degrees. Just have to test it and see. I want to say for my basilisk enclosure. My 100w for one end is 16-18" from the basking spot. And I have a 75w on the other thats 12-14" from the top. Both give about 92-96 degrees F heat at their respective heights.
> 
> And at least here in Michigan, you can return bulbs to PetSmart. So try one and see what it gets the temps too and take it back if it's not right. (Ask them if you can return bulbs first though to make sure!)
> 
> Oh and do NOT get the heat bulbs that coil around. Just get the regular looking ones. Or you could go with MVB, but im not sure if that's too much UVB for a redfoot. (MVB are the heat and UVB in one bulbs).



Yeah, all I have are 150 watts (I stocked up for my beardie) which would have to be hung from the ceiling, and this 50w red bulb. I can edit my order online until 2pm tomorrow, so once I get more opinions I'll decide what I'm going to do. I do believe an MVB would have too much UVB for a redfoot, but I have a spare fixture and 5.0's that I can use if needed.


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## Itort (Jun 20, 2009)

There is a cost vs bulb life factor in the heat bulb/che comparision in the che last much longer than a heat bulb, can be left on 24/7 without affecting light cycle, and are in general tougher. The half cover works like a charm, I use that concept with all my forest type torts.


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## JohnMcD (Jun 20, 2009)

Hmm.. maybe I will get a che.

The bin is 30" x 18" .. this is too small for a hatchling?

Heres some more pics with the red bulb.. which I'm not even going to use now.. but ehh why not show them? 






The readings here are of the end with the bulb.





I added this piece of slate where the basking spot is.. (should I keep it, or remove it?)





Here is the sphagnom moss under the hide





And finally, this reading is from a piece of slate that i held in the air about 2" above the soil, under the light.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jun 20, 2009)

You didn't say it was a hatchling, you just said future tort. I'd still put a big pile of moss over half your bin. Get the temp up to 90-95 area. I see it's made it to 90 now. I use a CHE over my T.Hermanni...but all my other tortoises just have a black light bulb. I don't see what makes the CHE any better...I personally think the black bulb keeps everything warmer.


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## JohnMcD (Jun 20, 2009)

maggie3fan said:


> You didn't say it was a hatchling, you just said future tort. I'd still put a big pile of moss over half your bin. Get the temp up to 90-95 area. I see it's made it to 90 now. I use a CHE over my T.Hermanni...but all my other tortoises just have a black light bulb. I don't see what makes the CHE any better...I personally think the black bulb keeps everything warmer.



Ooops, my bad!

90-95 in the whole bin, or do you just mean the basking spot?
Could you post a link to the black bulb that you use?

Edit: Just finished putting moss under the covered portion of the bin. Measuring humidity/temps now.


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## Yvonne G (Jun 20, 2009)

Its just a regular incandescent bulb, but the glass is painted black. Wal-Mart sells them, Orchard's sells them. They're about $3 a bulb and are stocked in the lighting section with the other bulbs.

Yvonne


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## JohnMcD (Jun 20, 2009)

Our Wal-Mart is currently being remodeled and we dont have Orchards here. Ill see if I can find it somewhere else.


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## Candy (Jun 20, 2009)

I'm just wondering after reading his post whether the sand mixed in is a good idea? I have always read where sand can impact them. Can someone tell me if this is O.K. for a Redfoots enclosure? Maybe because it's mixed in it's alright or not? I myself use a heat emitter for Dale, but they can be pretty pricey. At night I use the red light just because I had already bought it before the heat emitter.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jun 20, 2009)

Candy said:


> I'm just wondering after reading his post whether the sand mixed in is a good idea? I have always read where sand can impact them. Can someone tell me if this is O.K. for a Redfoots enclosure? Maybe because it's mixed in it's alright or not? I myself use a heat emitter for Dale, but they can be pretty pricey. At night I use the red light just because I had already bought it before the heat emitter.



Hey Candy...You really only have to worry about sand impaction when you feed directly on straight sand, and your tortoise is not well hydrated... if it's mixed with a soil then it just makes a good substrate.


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## Chewbecca (Jun 21, 2009)

John,
I spoke with Terry (Turtletary) EXTENSIVELY about RFTs for about FOUR hours Thursday and Friday.

If you are getting a hatchling, that enclosure is big enough.
Terry told me, hatchling RFTs do NOT need a basking spot.
They need consistent temps of 85 degrees or so in the entire enclosure.

I'm going to snap a shot of my hatchling enclosure later. It's totally not an attractive set up, but it'll do.
It's quite generic, but I bet my hatchling'll be happy.

I have sphagnum moss on one half of my enclosure, and nothing on the other half because the other half is where I'll be placing his food on a small dish/lid.
I have his hide (which is a glittery purple plastic igloo that my mom bought as a gift for my leopard geckos but was too big for them/their enclosure) on top of the damp spag moss, and a small saucer/plate next to it with water for a soaking spot. On the side without any substrate, I have his cuttle bone (which isn't bad to offer a hatchling RFT, but isn't necessary).

I'm thinking of cutting half the lid like you did, that's an awesome idea!
For light (which they only really need to see their food), make sure it's not blasting towards his hide. I'd place the light away from the hide.
Also, remember, it's a hatchling. Hatchling RFTs in the wild, spend most of their time hiding, so don't be surprised if your little guy spends most of his time in his hide. <---That's what Terry told me.
Also, Terry kept telling me to remember that they are tropical tortoises.
Humidity is EXTREMELY important to keep their shells nice. He told me you cannot mist your tortoise enough (the tortoise NOT the substrate).

My hatchling isn't going to have a UVB light. I'm going to take him outside.
Which Terry informed me he'll like for about 1 minute before he seeks out shade.

Terry also told me that on Tuesday, when my little guy arrives, I'm to open the shipping container, allow his eyes to adjust to the light, and offer him a red tropical hibiscus leaf immediately.
He's going to be hungries. AWWW.
I'm so excited!!! I cannot wait!


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## Laura (Jun 21, 2009)

Is that Real clover or Oxalis in there growing? 
Welcome and have fun!!!
And remember.. there isnt one way to do it right.. do what is good for the tort and what works for you!

oh, and I have found black lights at the dollar store!!


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## Chewbecca (Jun 21, 2009)

Laura said:


> Is that Real clover or Oxalis in there growing?
> Welcome and have fun!!!
> And remember.. there isnt one way to do it right.. do what is good for the tort and what works for you!
> 
> oh, and I have found black lights at the dollar store!!






I was wondering about the clover, too!
Shouldn't clover have a white ring around mid way on the leaf?
That's what the pic shows in the one thread on here.

I am finding my 60 watt heat emitter is NOT getting my cage temps up to 85 degrees.
They're ranging between 80 and 82 or so. But not quite up to 85 degrees.

Should I return it and get the 100 watt?


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## Yvonne G (Jun 21, 2009)

In the one picture where you labeled it "here is the sphagnum moss under the hide" that doesn't look like sphagnum moss. Here's what it looks like:







Its a long-stemmed, fuzzy sort of stuff that the tortoise can burrow into.

Yvonne


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## Candy (Jun 21, 2009)

maggie3fan said:


> Candy said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just wondering after reading his post whether the sand mixed in is a good idea? I have always read where sand can impact them. Can someone tell me if this is O.K. for a Redfoots enclosure? Maybe because it's mixed in it's alright or not? I myself use a heat emitter for Dale, but they can be pretty pricey. At night I use the red light just because I had already bought it before the heat emitter.
> ...



Thanks Maggie that makes sense.


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## JohnMcD (Jun 21, 2009)

Okay.. so, I canceled my order for the Sunglow bulb, and will order a che later. As for the moss, I did mention that It didnt seem like the right stuff, as it is clearly ground up instead of pulled apart like the stuff sold in the pet store, but I think it will do just fine (it IS sphagnom moss). About the clover.. I'm not sure what it is, my mom has been growing it for years in the house, I thought it was just regular clover.. I'll get rid of it if thats what you guys think I should do.

So here are my remaining/unanswered questions:
Should I remove the 'clover' that is in the bin?
What greens/fruits do you feed your RFTs?
What other than greens/fruits do you feed your RTFs?

I think thats all.. most likely not though  I'll add more later if I think of anything

Thanks for all of your input!


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## Seiryu (Jun 21, 2009)

I think I have the same clover as you in my yard. It has the heart shaped leaves. Mine have flowers on them (4-5 bigger yellow pedals). Those are the bad ones. I'd take it out to be safe.


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## Candy (Jun 21, 2009)

JohnMcD said:


> Okay.. so, I canceled my order for the Sunglow bulb, and will order a che later. As for the moss, I did mention that It didnt seem like the right stuff, as it is clearly ground up instead of pulled apart like the stuff sold in the pet store, but I think it will do just fine (it IS sphagnom moss). About the clover.. I'm not sure what it is, my mom has been growing it for years in the house, I thought it was just regular clover.. I'll get rid of it if thats what you guys think I should do.
> 
> So here are my remaining/unanswered questions:
> Should I remove the 'clover' that is in the bin?
> ...



Redfoot tortoises are omnivorous. They consume both animal and plant material in the wild. 

GREENS 
Most grocery stores have a decent selection of greens that redfoot tortoises readily eat. Ideally the greens should be organic and pesticide free. However this is the real world and not all tortoise keepers have access to "ideal" food. So, I have this section as a starting point for a varied diet. The following greens are easily found in my local stores: 
Romaine lettuce
Red and green leaf lettuce
Endive
Escarole
Chicory
Radicchio
Turnip greens
Mustard greens
Kale
Collards
Spring Mix (mixed salad greens)
cabbage (on occasion)

VEGETABLES
Yellow squash
Zucchini
Winter squash
Pumpkin
Carrots (on occasion)
Green Beans (on occasion)

FRUIT
Papaya
Mangos
Apples (be sure there are no seeds)
Strawberries
Blackberries
Cactus fruit
Tomatoes

OTHER GOOD CHOICES 
Some other favorites of my tortoises that are available:
Hibiscus (flowers and leaves)
Opuntia cactus pads
Hosta
Sedum
Mulberry leaves
Hen and Chicks
Ice Plants
Prickly pear flowers, fruit and pads (burn the spines off)
Dandelion
Plantain (not the banana type fruit....the weed plantago major)
Mallow (flowers and leaves)
Henbit
Rose (flowers and leaves....make sure no systemic pesticides were used)
Chrysanthemum flowers
Cornflowers Plagiobothrys ssp
Forsythia (flowers and leaves)
Dayflower Commelina diffusa (flowers and leaves)
Californian Poppy escholzia 

Make sure all are pesticide and herbicide free.

MEAT etc.
In the wild redfoot tortoises eat a variety of animal matter including carrion. Redfoot tortoises fed exclusively a plant based diet frequently develop hind leg paralysis. They also have low fertility and hatchlings often fail to thrive. It is often recommended to feed them low fat cat food as often as every other feeding. I have found this to be unnecessary and a contributing factor in pyramiding.

One more thing I feed Dale Elk meat for his protein he loves it. He wouldn't eat the cat food for me and the elk meat is easier for me to get. Once he gets outside he can it the worms or whatever he finds himself.


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## spring pace (Jun 21, 2009)

JohnMcD said:


> maggie3fan said:
> 
> 
> > You didn't say it was a hatchling, you just said future tort. I'd still put a big pile of moss over half your bin. Get the temp up to 90-95 area. I see it's made it to 90 now. I use a CHE over my T.Hermanni...but all my other tortoises just have a black light bulb. I don't see what makes the CHE any better...I personally think the black bulb keeps everything warmer.
> ...


hmmm... dont know that much about redfoots, but what ive read so far from the other post as to the temps they need, seems to me that it should be 90-95 under the basking/heat lamp, but should be about 20 degrees cooler on the other end. i didnt see a water dish, that helps w/ humidity. i used the same type of tort box you are using, it has a flip lid, but i didnt use it because i couldnt get a temp difference from one end to the other. i have a sulcata and as he grew i raised the sides because he wanted outside whenever he was inside and i found him flipped over more than a few times. i even stopped using rounded hides, he kept want to climb on top, so i used cardboard instead because he kept insisting on climbing and the cardboard would just collapse, then he would find a space under it and be happy as can be ;o)


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## Crazy1 (Jun 21, 2009)

JohnMcD said:


> So here are my remaining/unanswered questions:
> Should I remove the 'clover' that is in the bin?
> What greens/fruits do you feed your RFTs?
> What other than greens/fruits do you feed your RTFs?
> ...



Hi JohnMcD. Yes remove the 'clover' you don't want your hatchling eating oxalis. 
I used the diet and food schedule Terry from www.redfoots.com suggests, it even gives you pics of how much to feed so you won't over feed your hatchling. 

Greens: Grape Leaves, Mulberry leaves, Hibiscus (blooms & leaves), Dandelion Greens and flowers, Curly Endive (not Belgian), Chicory, Escarole Collard Greens. No Kale or spinach too high in Goiter causing stuff. 
Fruits: Strawberry, cantaloupe, honeydew melon, plum, peach, pineapple, prickly pear cactus (pads and fruit). Avoid citrus fruits no orange, grapefruit, lemons and no tomatoes too high acid. "Seldom" Bananas!!! If ever 

I would highly recommend using TerryÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s diet and schedule. He has wonderful RF and has been breeding them for some time and they are smooth and look healthy and happy. Of course there are many ways of raising torts and many ways of raising RF. I have just found that TerryÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ s www.Redfoot.com has worked for my little foster RF. So why reinvent the wheel.

Also you can get spharnum moss at Home Depot or Lowes it is cheaper there than in the petstores.


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## Chewbecca (Jun 22, 2009)

It should be 85 degrees to low 90's by its hide, and an enclosure ambient temp of at least the low 80's.


If you go to Lowe's for Sphagnum moss, just be careful not to buy the stuff with Miracle Grow in it.
That's all my Lowe's and Menard's had in stock.
But I have a speciality floral/gardening store locally that sells the plain sphagnum moss.


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## daytripper (Jun 23, 2009)

Home depot AND lowes have the mosser lee spag moss...best stuff to use. look at terry's set up and go with it.

simple is better. ill take a snap of my setup. just got my hatchling last week n he loves it.


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## Chewbecca (Jun 24, 2009)

daytripper said:


> Home depot AND lowes have the mosser lee spag moss...best stuff to use. look at terry's set up and go with it.
> 
> simple is better. ill take a snap of my setup. just got my hatchling last week n he loves it.




Please do take a snap of your set up.
Right now, my hatchling is in a plastic tub type enclosure on my dresser.
I have to clamp the heat emitter to the side of the tub, over the hide.
Terry strongly suggests that I use half the lid over the warm hide, but then I won't be able to clamp the lamp over the warm hide to keep the heat and humidity in.
If I angle the lamp, it doesn't get the warm area up high enough in temps.

I'm baffled on how I'm going to do this and make it work.
As it stands now, I have to use heat tape under the enclosure (not IN the enclosure) to keep temps higher. And this is WITH a 100 watt heat emitter!
AND the tub is NOT that big.
I wish I could have a designated tort room.


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## Crazy1 (Jun 24, 2009)

In order to set your CHE in the top of the lid you would have to have a deeper container. Then you cut a whole in the lid set in a wood square and attach the CHE to the wood. Or just attach the CHE to a piece of wood and use it as half a top. Check the depth of this tub on Terrys site. http://www.redfoots.com/henclose.htm


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## Chewbecca (Jun 24, 2009)

Crazy1 said:


> In order to set your CHE in the top of the lid you would have to have a deeper container. Then you cut a whole in the lid set in a wood square and attach the CHE to the wood. Or just attach the CHE to a piece of wood and use it as half a top. Check the depth of this tub on Terrys site. http://www.redfoots.com/henclose.htm



Thanks! I saw that, but wasn't quite sure if that was a specialty made wood piece for the heat emitter, OR if it was a separate shelf.


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## Millerlite (Jun 24, 2009)

did you ever upgrade the watt on your heat emitter? I would go 100 and maybe get a dimmer so you can turn it up or down as nessasary. I have a 100watt on my mt. tortoises which i'm housing almost just like redfooted tortoises. I have the UVB light on one end and the heat emitter on the other, the temps are around 75-85 depending where you are in the enclosure. Take some pictures, i'm sure you will do fine they are great creatures, and like they said before there is not just one way in caring for a tortoise.


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