# Emotions, tortoises, reasoning, and humans



## Madkins007 (Dec 20, 2009)

The 'tail wagging' thread has become a discussion of emotions in tortoises, which certainly is a debatable topic if there ever was one!

We have people making claims that animals cannot reason, thus have no emotions (if I am reading it correctly) and others claiming that their tortoises have deep emotions.

Before this gets too deep, I will point out that part of the problem is going to be definitions. What IS an emotion? Is it a behavior triggered by a specific stimuli? A reasoned response to something? Somehow related to a soul? Different people are going to approach this differently.

I do not think anyone would argue that tortoises don't feel pain, hunger, discomfort, an urge to mate, a preference for one food over another, etc.- but are these emotions or just instinctive behavior? Is there a difference?

Terry/Redfoot NERD asked "Aren't humans the only living thing that have the ability to reason.. isn't that what makes humans different???" This represents a widely held belief that there is something about humans that makes us different than animals. 

While there may be a difference between humans and animals, reasoning does not seem to be it- many animals have shown the ability to solve problems and reason- like chimps solving logic puzzles, gorillas combining symbols to express complex ideas, and crows (was it crows?) fashioning tools to reach into complicated termite mound entries. Dolphins and orangutans confound keepers frequently by doing amazing things they figured out in their spare time.

I fully agree with Terry that we do some dumb or even bad things to tortoises and other animals because we project our emotions onto them, but that is our problem and does not mean that they do not have some emotions of their own.

What do you think?


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Dec 20, 2009)

I think that its not people think they have no emotions vs. those who think they have deep emotions. I think that they have basic emotions (fear, happiness, etc)... I think mammals and perhaps birds have deep emotions (love, pleasure, etc).


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## alfiethetortoise (Dec 20, 2009)

Correct me if i am wrong, but arn't animals with what we would call 'basic emotions' those animals which can pass the mirror test (the test in which an animal recognises itself, and not it's reflection, in a mirror). In fact, perhaps thats a debate in itself. Last week i watched LIFE (a BBC nature documentary) which showed chimpanzee's showing emotive compassion with eachother. An as with 'ability to reason' many many animals are very intelligent, and probably have better reasoning than us homo sapiens


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## Candy (Dec 20, 2009)

You arrogant humans. You think that we don't have emotions or reasoning yet at the same time everyday we have you trained to feed us in the same spot and replenish our water dish and you even sit and talk with us as we're watching you thinking "What in the hell is he saying"? We even have you picking up our poop and talking about it on forums. I think we're the ones that should be worrying about you. 

Signed, 

Dale


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## -EJ (Dec 20, 2009)

Can a tortoise experience love, hate, vengence... these are pretty much human emotions.

I can be pretty certain that the higher mammals can experience these very same emotions.

If you look up the definition of 'emotion' I would have to agree that tortoises experience emotions but they are no where near what the higher mammals experience.

This whole debate is not really about emotions as it is about anthropomorphizing. Transferring human/mammal traits to a reptile.

Most of the lower reptiles... which the tortoises are one of the most primitive... act on pure instinct. There is a little choice and thought but not even close to what some people project.


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## GBtortoises (Dec 20, 2009)

Some humans want to believe that tortoises (and other reptiles) feel emotion. That gives that human a closer connection to the animal by thinking that the animal shares or has emotions. Tortoises have instincts, good ones, strong ones. They don't come running when they see you because they miss you. They come running because they've associated you and more importantly, your hand, with food. If you think your tortoise has emotions for you (love and affection), put it outdoors some sunny day and see what happens. If it loves you it should turn around and follow you right? But if it starts heading for the hills without looking back (which is what it will do), does that mean it hates you? No, that means it doesn't have human emotions! 

I agree with EJ it's that anthropomo---whatever the heck he said!


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## Rhyno47 (Dec 20, 2009)

I have seen 3 turtle emotions, fear, excitement, and contentedness.


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## -EJ (Dec 20, 2009)

Did you see flight response... the presentation of food after being starved... all of it's needs were met. In the very basic sense those are emotions but they are not conscious emotions... they are instinctive.



Rhyno47 said:


> I have seen 3 turtle emotions, fear, excitement, and contentedness.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Dec 20, 2009)

Love is an instinctive emotion as well (according to some). I wouldn't bring that debate in here... You can't call some emotions instinctive and others not.

If you read Desmond Morriss's The Naked Ape humans appear to be just as instinctual and only acting on the need to survive than you would ever think... Real thought provoking book...

** Not saying the book is correct or that it represents my opinion, that wasn't my point


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## zgoldsmith23 (Dec 20, 2009)

I would say tortoise ceratainly DO have emotions. Now, they may not have extreme complex emotions. However, my "Doc" comes to me whenever I get home and always seems to "show some love." Tortoises have the ability to feel hunger, which, unless I am mistaken, is an emotion. When "Doc's" friend, "Lucy," passed away from RF, Doc wouldn't eat for about three days. I am not trying to say that he didn't eat because she died but, he had eaten almost every day before then.

ZG


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## fifthdawn (Dec 20, 2009)

The biggest thing about humans is obviously our cognitive ability. We have the ability to plan and think ahead of the current situation. This allows us to have emotion relating to future and past tense, dream, hope, fear things that arn't currently there, etc.

Most animals can not look past its present and link things to the past. Their imediate focus is on the things currently happening. Anything relating to past has been conditioned through experience. I say most because with higher cognitive abilities, you can be closer to human emotions. Higher cognitive abilities is tied to the prefrontal cortex. This is why the example you all use are chimps and apes. Mammalian brain is further evolved than reptilian brains. 

With that said, I think the only thing reptiles can feel are negative and positive emotions, usually caused by chemical release. Cortisol understress and the rest is to meet bodily functions when there is a deficiency. We have a huge tendency to antropomorphize things, common example is how we do it with God.


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## Stephanie Logan (Dec 20, 2009)

Why do you guys want to suck most of the fun out of pet ownership?! Funsuckers!!

Where would we as a species be if we could not, and did not, anthropomorphize our domesticated animals? What would that say about our own emotional range?

My daughters have entire conversations on behalf of our cats--sometimes these take place as text messages, and go on for hours, if not days--and they inspire intense emotions in everybody who witnesses them. We laugh our b*tts off!


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## fifthdawn (Dec 20, 2009)

Nothings wrong with it lol. I seriously don't believe they have complex emotions. Yet, I treat them as if they did which is what makes it fun. Its just somewhere in the back of my head, I know its the truth, otherwise I'd be delusional.


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## terryo (Dec 20, 2009)

I know nothing about reptile emotions. I know that Pio didn't eat for days, when I took Izzy out of his enclosure. They were together since they were three weeks old. He searched his viv for days. Sat in his hide and never came out. What was that all about? I have no answer.
I can tell you about my monkey. She did things that were amazing. Knew where the utensils were in my kitchen...opened the drawer...used a fork to open her treat box, hid her toys under my bed. If we told to yo go get a certain one, she was always right on the money. I could go on and on. When my son got hurt, and was crying she would go over to him and hug him and rock back and forth with him.
I think there is a level of intelligence and a level of emotion, and each animal has his own level of understanding and reason. I don't think any one knows the level of intelligence and emotion that a tortoise can display.


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## fifthdawn (Dec 20, 2009)

Well, primate brains are very similar and have the same structure as a human brain. That explains a lot of the things that we associate with humans and primates.

As for Pio and Izzy, I think its one of those cases where theres probably a logical explaination. Correlation does not equal causation. As humans, we have a tendency to focus on things that supports our ideas, but ignore those that doesn't. I'm sure if we experimented, not saying you should, but theorectically, if you take Izzy out and put her back in multiple times, I think the majority of the time, Pio will probably eat.


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## Stephanie Logan (Dec 20, 2009)

I also think it's somewhat poignant that tortoises are completely mute, so they cannot express, through sound, even the basic feelings of hunger, fear or gratification.

All they have are those deep pools called eyes, for us to read as best we can.


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## terryo (Dec 20, 2009)

Mixing species is another topic, so please don't comment now....
Izzy was a Three Toed, and couldn't care less if Pio was there or not. Pio, my Cherry Head, on the other hand, followed her around the enclosure since they were hatchlings. Whatever hide she went into he would follow. If she was in the water he would wait outside the water dish for her. I knew eventually they had to be separated, but fate took care of that. Why did Pio follow her all over, why did he sleep with her whereever she slept, etc......I don't know. When she was gone, it took a long time for him to go back to normal. Nay also have a similar experience with hers.
One of many pictures of them together:


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Dec 20, 2009)

Cute picture


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## Stephanie Logan (Dec 20, 2009)

Poor Pio! As I recall, Izzie got out through the gate when your daughter/niece accidentally left it open, and now you are hoping she may resurface next spring? I hope she does!

Your photo and story make both Pio and Izzy so endearing, I can understand why these kinds of occurrences really do make us want to believe there is more of a connection there than just primitive instinct.


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## Candy (Dec 20, 2009)

I love Pio and Izzy and to me that looks very much like a relationship. It might have been one sided where Izzy was concerned, but it's obvious that something was there. I love the look on Pio's face when he's looking at Izzy in the water.


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## dmmj (Dec 21, 2009)

Does lust count as an emotion? or turtles being " horny" is that an emotion? of course they feel soem emotions they get scared, they get happy I guess when food is around, during mating season, well we all know what happens during mating season. But does that equate emotions? I am not now or ever to equate them to human emotion. Do I love my animals, yes of course I do, do they love me? I can't say I find it funny that they are so called simple animals yet we wait on them hand and foot, I of course think not being able to make a lot of sounds beside hissing, handicaps them in that depratment. My dog and cat make sounds when they are happy (fooodtime), or sad( when I am going) or scared(fourth of july). I think this is a big topic and I won't find any answer tonight.


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## bikerchicspain (Dec 21, 2009)

I think all living things have emotions, I think it is ignorant to think that only humans have emotions after all who is the biggest animal of them all "humans" i can tell when my animals are happy or unwell and even sad. Otherwise they wouldnt have the character they have and come to you when they see you, You would see them get emotional when in pain, okay so they dont laugh or cry,but show emotions in different ways that only the owner will recognise it, That is part of being such good owners because you are capable of noticing these things.. I know alot of you will disagrre with me, but working with animals i get to see it day to day and i believe they do...sorry if this offends anyone


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## Redfoot NERD (Dec 21, 2009)

-EJ said:


> Can a tortoise experience love, hate, vengence... these are pretty much human emotions.
> 
> I can be pretty certain that the higher mammals can experience these very same emotions.
> 
> ...



Transferring human/mammal traits to a reptile.

Candy/Dale - EJ.. you have said it as best as could be. 

Terry K


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## fifthdawn (Dec 21, 2009)

I think the gray area is around the definition of emotion. I think under some of the definitions, we can argue that even plants have emotions. What alot of us observe are pure behavior. Stimuli-response type of thing. Input-output. We can't be sure there is a mental state governing the behaviors instead of pure response to a stimuli. We just place emotions into these behaviors.

Understress, many trees will release a toxin around its leaves, making it poisonous for consumption. They will also release airborne chemicals to warn nearby trees to release the same chemicals. This is one form of communication. Plants tend to move or sway toward sunlight. Certain plants will change colors, lose leaves, shrink, etc, if neglected. They also grow bigger when you sing or talk to them. This sounds like a myth in past, but its proven that vibration causes certain stimulations in plants enchancing its growth. In this case, I can argue that my plants love it when I'm around, and they also love the sun because they move and grow more when I'm around. It seems almost as if it eats more when I'm around and doesn't eat when I'm gone. Certain grass, we call them "shy grass" curl up instantly to touch, almost as if its afraid. This is pure behavior that we're observing, yet I bet if we put cute little eyes on these green and purely vegetative beings and if theyre not rooted to the soil, we'd be more likely to say these things have emotions. Its as if they have love, hate, and fear. You see where I'm going? Like how reptile emotion is not at the same level as mammalian emotions, plants emotion isn't at the same level as reptilian emotion, none the less, they still have some degree of emotion.


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## -EJ (Dec 21, 2009)

It was either the animal rights activists or the opposition that tried to use this in the 60s and 70s



fifthdawn said:


> I think the gray area is around the definition of emotion. I think under some of the definitions, we can argue that even plants have emotions. What alot of us observe are pure behavior. Stimuli-response type of thing. Input-output. We can't be sure there is a mental state governing the behaviors instead of pure response to a stimuli. We just place emotions into these behaviors.
> 
> Understress, many trees will release a toxin around its leaves, making it poisonous for consumption. They will also release airborne chemicals to warn nearby trees to release the same chemicals. This is one form of communication. Plants tend to move or sway toward sunlight. Certain plants will change colors, lose leaves, shrink, etc, if neglected. They also grow bigger when you sing or talk to them. This sounds like a myth in past, but its proven that vibration causes certain stimulations in plants enchancing its growth. In this case, I can argue that my plants love it when I'm around, and they also love the sun because they move and grow more when I'm around. It seems almost as if it eats more when I'm around and doesn't eat when I'm gone. Certain grass, we call them "shy grass" curl up instantly to touch, almost as if its afraid. This is pure behavior that we're observing, yet I bet if we put cute little eyes on these green and purely vegetative beings and if theyre not rooted to the soil, we'd be more likely to say these things have emotions. Its as if they have love, hate, and fear. You see where I'm going? Like how reptile emotion is not at the same level as mammalian emotions, plants emotion isn't at the same level as reptilian emotion, none the less, they still have some degree of emotion.


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## fifthdawn (Dec 21, 2009)

I'm not old enough to know what happens during 60s and 70s, but yea, I wouldn't be suprised if animal rights activist use this argument. THey probably have the same definition of "emotion" that I think they have. 

If your definition requires that certain animals, or all animals have emotions. You're left with two options, you must either accept that plants have emotions as well, otherwise you'll have to change your definition. And if you do change your definition, then what definition would you have that necessitates that animals have emotions and plants dont.


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## terryo (Dec 21, 2009)

fifthdawn said:


> I think the gray area is around the definition of emotion. I think under some of the definitions, we can argue that even plants have emotions. What alot of us observe are pure behavior. Stimuli-response type of thing. Input-output. We can't be sure there is a mental state governing the behaviors instead of pure response to a stimuli. We just place emotions into these behaviors.
> 
> Understress, many trees will release a toxin around its leaves, making it poisonous for consumption. They will also release airborne chemicals to warn nearby trees to release the same chemicals. This is one form of communication. Plants tend to move or sway toward sunlight. Certain plants will change colors, lose leaves, shrink, etc, if neglected. They also grow bigger when you sing or talk to them. This sounds like a myth in past, but its proven that vibration causes certain stimulations in plants enchancing its growth. In this case, I can argue that my plants love it when I'm around, and they also love the sun because they move and grow more when I'm around. It seems almost as if it eats more when I'm around and doesn't eat when I'm gone. Certain grass, we call them "shy grass" curl up instantly to touch, almost as if its afraid. This is pure behavior that we're observing, yet I bet if we put cute little eyes on these green and purely vegetative beings and if theyre not rooted to the soil, we'd be more likely to say these things have emotions. Its as if they have love, hate, and fear. You see where I'm going? Like how reptile emotion is not at the same level as mammalian emotions, plants emotion isn't at the same level as reptilian emotion, none the less, they still have some degree of emotion.



I love it!!


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## Candy (Dec 21, 2009)

I too love it. Good perspective.


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## Redfoot NERD (Dec 22, 2009)

WOW.... recycled hippies man.....

NERD


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