# Pyramiding – Solving the Mystery



## Markw84

I remember as a young boy one of the things that fueled my interest with chelonians was seeing how much was just NOT KNOWN about them. When I became fascinated with an animal, I ran to the encyclopedia to find out about it. I also always went to the library and checked out every book I could find on the subject.  What is the best diet? Temperature? How about incubating eggs when I got them? Nowhere could I find anything about what temperature was best. So I had to figure things out myself. Today we are so lucky with information at our fingertips. The internet – this forum! Yet still today, when it comes to chelonians, so much still seems to no be KNOWN. Most everything is, at best, debated. Some proposing one way, while another ‘expert’ says that won’t work. But we do have a chance now to see literally thousands of examples of results. But even results can be misleading if we don’t take into consideration the unique conditions that keeper in that part of the world provided. So little seems to be KNOWN!

Pyramiding is one of the best examples. In todays world of modern technology and scientific knowledge, there is still no proposed theory anywhere on how, metabolically, pyramiding even happens. It was just the last decade that it even became more apparent how to even prevent it. But that is still hotly debated. Most import of wild caught tortoises has been stopped for some time now. Pyramided tortoise has become the norm. Most pictures and artwork depicting tortoise show pyramided tortoise as “normal”!

We have enough evidence now to see that humidity is the key to preventing it. I can now grow smooth tortoises at will, after over 40 years of never being able to. I tried side by side groups of low protein vs higher protein groups. Groups of Fast growth vs slow growth. 3 groups of Store bough greens vs commercial pellets, vs natural grazing only. Stable temperatures vs night drops. Everything all the ‘experts’ said, I tried. Then I heard about humidity. I found this forum and read Tom’s thread on ending pyramiding. It all made sense immediately. I think it was the frustration of failing so many times and having to try so many proposed solutions that allowed me to find all the things that did not affect pyramiding. So many who have not had to struggle with it because of their location do not have that perspective. They will say it is diet, exercise, slower growth, etc, etc. All necessary for the most healthy of tortoises, but I found had nothing to do with pyramiding.

So, once I found out how to keep tortoises from pyramiding, the question still remained – why? Why did humidity work? Why didn’t diet or fast growth or exercise matter? I needed to know why! And no one, nowhere, knew why. There were enough pieces to the puzzle that were known. I had watched tortoise grow for decades. I monitored how pyramiding started and progressed. I could see what was happening. But to put the remaining pieces together took me into research in the anatomy and physiology of tortoise, keratin growth, bone growth, and even orthodontics.

A tortoise is a very uniquely modified animal. It is a vertebrate, yet carries its main skeletal structure on the outside. To protect this outside, exposed bone, another protective layer of keratin has developed over the bone. This is a unique adaptation as two hard surfaces normally do not come immediately in contact with each other in vertebrates. Bones are surrounded by cartilage and muscle - and even in more exposed areas, layers of hair and skin that cushion and provide ample blood flow. Keratin is also an interesting substance. Forming hair, nails, feathers, horns, it normally grows where the new keratin being formed is protected by living tissue from drying too quickly. Cuticles, hair follicles, feather sheaths, scalp around the base of horns, etc, etc. The tortoise, however, grows keratin that is exposed immediately to the external environment as it starts to spread and grow. No protective covering on the outside growth areas.

If you watch a tortoise grow and pyramid, you soon see that pyramiding is driven by the scutes, not by bone. For maximum strength, the scutes of a tortoise never align with the seams of an underlying bone. They all overlap - creating a very strong structure. Yet when a tortoise pyramids, the pyramiding ALWAYS follows the pattern of the scute. Where individual bones lay has no effect on the pattern of pyramiding. The scute remains a uniform thickness. It does not thicken in the center. The bone also retains a fairly uniform thickness, but deforms to match to shape of the pyramiding. Bone would not grow that way unless something was forcing it to deform. I also saw that pyramiding was the forming of valleys at the seams of scutes, not the raising of the centers. A perfectly smooth tortoise will have the higher, more domed look that matches the peaks of a pyramided tortoise, not the valleys.

From studies on keratin, we see that keratin is quite hydroscopic when new and forming. It is more pliable and absorbs water easily. As it matures, and “dries” it becomes much harder and stiffer and loses most of its hydroscopic properties and no longer absorbs water and swells. It becomes a much stiffer and stronger, protective substance. Tortoises add very little thickness to a scute as it grows. New keratin is formed at the seams of the spreading scutes as a tortoise grows. As the underlying bone grows, the seam spreads between the scutes. Keratin spreads outward to fill this seam and slowly adds thickness, swelling to match the “finished” thickness of the scute. Often, this new keratin will swell thicker than the older scute section and create a ridge in a faster growing “smooth” tortoise. This will dry and age over the next several months and smooth out to a more flush level, but leave a distinct ‘growth ring’. The thickness of the scute of a 30” sulcata is pretty much the same as a 15” sulcata. New keratin is not added to the underside of the central parts of scutes as a tortoise grows.

They have no protective layer over the new keratin growth, so the outside of the newly forming keratin is exposed to the environment. If while this new keratin is growing and spreading, it is exposed to conditions that allow it to dry too quickly, it will lose its ability to continue to swell and fill in thickness. The underside of the keratin, in direct contact to living tissue (the epithelial layer) still is pliable and swelling. This imbalance forces the new growth to swell downward as it cannot continue to fill in upward. This puts a small but constant pressure on that epithelial layer and puts it in compression as it is being pressed into the bone below. This is the beginning of pyramiding.

How does this slight pressure deform bone? As mentioned earlier, the tortoise shell is very uncommon in vertebrates in having bone next to a hard surface. There is a very thin layer of tissue that separated the bone from the scutes called the epithelial layer. This delivers blood supply and nutrients to the bone and new keratin growth and creates a barrier between the bone and the hard scute. Epithelial tissues are everywhere in a vertebrate. It covers the outside of your body (skin), lines organs, vessels, and cavities. But it also is defined by not covering a hard surface and in direct contact with bone. However, there is one place I found something most similar to this positioning of hard surfaces. Teeth and the jaw bone. There is a layer formed between the teeth and the jawbone that separates and somewhat cushions the jawbone from the teeth. It is called the periodontal ligament. It still retains pockets of epithelial cells throughout that effects some of its functions. AND, it was In studying examples of how bone can be deformed or reshaped, I again was lead to teeth.

When a slight but consistent pressure is applied to a tooth, it puts the periodontal ligament into compression on one side of the tooth in the direction of the pressure. That triggers the formation of an important type of cell in our bodies called osteoclasts. Osteoclasts are specialized cells that break down and dissolve bone. Bones are constantly restructuring and rebuilding. Another type cell, the osteoblast – builds new bone. This adds density to our bones and grows our bones when we are younger. Under stress, (exercise) it is triggered to build density and more strength. Osteoclasts, on the other hand, are called into play to remove older bone, and also to tap into the stores of calcium and phosphorus in our bones in times where our levels of calcium or phosphorus in our blood drops too low. Our bones are more than an inert structural item. They are living, constantly remodeling stores of tissue and minerals.

So how do they move teeth? Apply a slight but constant pressure on a tooth. That puts the periodontal ligament in compression on one side of the tooth. That triggers the formation of a bunch of extra osteoclasts that form at that site of the pressure and start dissolving bone to relieve that pressure. On the other side of the tooth, the periodontal ligament is then in tension. This triggers osteoblasts that are called into action and an abundance of osteoblasts go to work forming new bone to fill in the area that is putting the periodontal ligament in tension. So - the bone is not deformed. It is broken down and removed on one side and new bone is built on the other side.

In our tortoises, when the new keratin dries to quickly, it is putting that epithelial layer into compression as the new keratin growth can only swell and fill in downward. The epithelial layer call osteoclasts into action at the site to dissolve and remove bone and relieve the compression on that epithelial layer. This creates a groove in the bone directly under the new growth. Even in smooth, “normal growth” tortoises, you can often see grooves in the bone formed by the growth rings. However, if the dry conditions persist and the tortoise continues to grow in conditions that are too dry, the newly forming seam will also press down on the epithelial layer over the bone and deepen the groove forming into a valley. If this continues, the actual plane of the bone is changed to the pyramided shape. Bone does not grow from the seams, but instead grows from wide areas throughout the bone. So the tipped areas themselves (particularly along the vertebrals with more bones than scutes) will be growing bone in a direction that will simply add to the pyramiding. That will make it much harder to alter the pyramiding in a tortoise once it has progressed substantially. Yet a young tortoise, with just the start of pyramiding, can develop quite smooth future growth easily at an earlier stage that hasn’t progressed too far.

So - for me this answered all the questions. All the pieces fit and all the scenarios I actually see, anywhere, all fit. There are two things needed to pyramid a tortoise. Active growth and dry conditions. It is only by putting the epithelial layer into compression that osteoclasts will be formed to dissolve bone under the area in compression.

Diet will not matter. Pressure triggers osteoclast genesis. With poor diet you can have a tortoise with pyramiding PLUS metabolic bone disease. If anything, the pyramiding is releasing a bit more calcium into the bloodstream to help bone growth elsewhere! If diet is so poor that growth is stopped, of course there would be no pyramiding because there is no growth of new keratin.

Excess protein will not trigger osteoclast genesis. And certainly not only in specific areas under scute seams. Excess protein will create excess purines and possible stone formation problems. Smooth or pyramided!

Exercise does trigger osteoblasts genesis and better bone growth and density. It does not trigger osteoclast genesis and again would have no effect on localizing that under scute seams.

Fast growth does not affect pyramiding. You can have fast growing smooth tortoises and fast growing pyramided tortoises. Just as you can have slow growing smooth tortoises or slow growing pyramided tortoises. If they grow, fast or slow, when conditions are too dry – they will pyramid.

UVB exposure will not change pyramiding. It will certainly affect calcium uptake and utilization as D3 is necessary for that. So it will affect bone growth, but will not trigger bone dissolving in such a specific, localized area as only under the scute seams. In extreme cases, it will lead to metabolic bone disease as osteoclasts are triggered throughout the greater storage rich bone areas as it looks to release calcium back in to the blood stream. But that is also more concentrated in the hip and pelvic bones and plastral bones. Not at all calling osteoclasts into play under scute seams. Totally separate metabolic events.

Tortoises have ended up in the wild in “left over” habitats. They have been outcompeted and predated upon in any of the more favorable habitats. Their survival is because the have found way to survive in habitats that are much more hostile. Water is the key ingredient to survival. They are masters at maintaining it and finding microclimates that are less harsh. Nature gives them food and growth along with the moisture. In drier times, the food disappears, and the tortoise aestivates or brumates and does not grow. Their first few years, most tortoises spend their lives buried in the ground, or in leaf litter, always protecting themselves not only from predation, but from desiccation.

In so many areas their ‘natural range’ has been altered by man. With the advent of irrigation and reservoirs, the expansion of agriculture into their native ranges has even changed the food availability to drier times of the year and we see pyramided “wild” tortoises. Or so many now kept in compounds and fed through drier times and kept from digging and burrowing naturally – it is hard to tell what a “natural” tortoise looks like. We would have to look back 1000 years or so in many areas to really see a true wild tortoise in totally unchanged habitat. Certainly, in captivity, we have changed the way they live and the way they look.

Perhaps we are now learning enough to finally learn the conditions in which these amazing animals will do best. I am seeing more and more examples of tortoises that I believe look the way they were designed to grow. Maybe that will soon become the norm. Hopefully in the not too distant future we will see smooth tortoises again represented in the pictures and artwork depicting their species.


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## Maro2Bear

Nice article Mark, can’t argue with any of your well thought out and researched findings. Thanks for posting.


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## Bambam1989

That was EXTREMELY informative.
I had a pretty good idea of how dry conditions affected shell growth but you managed to fill every small gap of knowledge.
I would love to see this information spread and become common knowledge for tort keepers every where.


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## wellington

Great info. 
My challenge, that hopefully you can explain, is this. One, do you think this pertains to every species, as some seem to always pyramid. Two, how is it some tortoises, being raised in very high humidity, can still pyramid, while its tank mate does not? 
The reason I question this, I have raised one leopard from being laid, incubation, to now. High humidity the whole time and still some pyramiding.
I now have four babies hatched October, again high humidity and slight pyramiding showing. 
Their substrate is never dry, the humidity never below 80 at tort height, usually higher. 
Because I do have to feed during winter months more grocery greens and mazuri then warmer months, I did figure it was probably a faster growth, as mazuri does seem to add growth fairly quick. However, I have not fed the four hatchlings any mazuri yet.


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## Markw84

wellington said:


> Great info.
> My challenge, that hopefully you can explain, is this. One, do you think this pertains to every species, as some seem to always pyramid. Two, how is it some tortoises, being raised in very high humidity, can still pyramid, while its tank mate does not?
> The reason I question this, I have raised one leopard from being laid, incubation, to now. High humidity the whole time and still some pyramiding.
> I now have four babies hatched October, again high humidity and slight pyramiding showing.
> Their substrate is never dry, the humidity never below 80 at tort height, usually higher.
> Because I do have to feed during winter months more grocery greens and mazuri then warmer months, I did figure it was probably a faster growth, as mazuri does seem to add growth fairly quick. However, I have not fed the four hatchlings any mazuri yet.


Barb,

I think a lot of this has to do with our lack of understanding of how tortoises actually spend their time in truly natural conditions, coupled with how they adjust their behavior in captivity.

In the wild, young tortoises, that are growing the most, are extremely hard to find and rarely reported. They not only are hiding from predators, but staying buried in sand, soil, leaf litter, mud puddles, they are also keeping their shells well hydrated. I think we have all minimized exactly how much this happens. In recently conversing with someone from India who likes go go hiking in areas he can find star tortoises, he related how they are normally found in the rainy season and pushed into wet grass clumps. Or he finds them in the banks of streams pushed in for cover and covered in mud. The only baby tortoise he ever found was only seen because the wind blew some large banana leaves around and he saw what looked like a clump of mud. Looking closer he saw the yearling tortoise totally covered in mud among the wet leaf litter. In his book, The Crying Tortoise, Devaux describes how the first few years, young sulcata spend the bulk of their time buried in moist sand. I recall a study I recently read on dehydration and they put a carrot, I believe on the surface, and then buried another, next to it but 4" deep. Two weeks later, the one on top was shriveled and totally dry, while the buried one look almost totally normal. The contact of moist material against the newer keratin probably plays a great role in changing the potential for desiccation.

In captivity our tortoises change. They do no behave as a wild tortoise would behave. The behaviors I describe above are not mental decisions a tortoise makes, but instinctual reflexes to the environment. Ones that do not act that way die. Ones that do, survive and develop that pattern of acting. In captivity they soon "learn" a new pattern. Hiding is not necessary, and in fact, the daily soak and the food that drops from the sky is all in the open with nothing they need to hide from. So even though we keep the enclosure humid, we still have a possibility of desiccation from the more open air style of living and the near IR from the lamps and heat sources - no matter what type.

I have gone to the more extreme side of trying to provide as much overhanging plants as possible in the enclosures. The moisture often keeps the plants moist that they push under. They all spend the bulk of their resting time pushed under some fronds if they have a choice and that is made available. But there are still dramatic differences in the "personalities" of the different ones. Some hide more, other bask more, etc, etc. So far I like how the plants are working out. My most recent two year old is now one of the smoothest leopard tortoise i have ever raised...


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## Salspi

Do you think that keeping the shell of a hatchling covered with a thin layer of mud for the first couple of years is a good idea? In captivity I’m saying.


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## Turtulas-Len

Very nice read,Thanks for taking the time to research this subject.


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## Salspi

Very nice shell


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## RosemaryDW

This is so useful. Tying it to the jaw really helped me because that’s something a lay person can understand.


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## Cowboy_Ken

Markw84 said:


> View attachment 231208


Greetings Markx84,
I wish to formally thank you for making/taking the time to provide all of us a very thorough, clear, and well documented paper regarding pyramiding in tortoises. You’ve given, at least me, a simple, clear explanation for others regarding the importance of moisture for a baby tortoise to grow properly. On a side note, great looking leopard youngin’. 
Cowboy Ken


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## Tom

A+ for you Mister.


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## Bambam1989

OMG we get grades! 
No one warned me about this..


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## Markw84

Salspi said:


> Do you think that keeping the shell of a hatchling covered with a thin layer of mud for the first couple of years is a good idea? In captivity I’m saying.


An interesting idea but I would be concerned about anything that constantly covers and blocks the carapace and new keratin from BOTH hydration and air exposure. It is the proper balance that is the issue.

I can't help but think something like the coconut oil should help, though. A member here did a long thread on that, but ended up with questions. But wee see the dramatically beautiful results of someone like @Pearly with her tortoises and regular application! Certainly with my own skin, in the tropics, my skin is always nice and supple, but here in the summer, I can look pretty reptilian!! Using a good lotion really helps with that. Skin is a very visible way for us to see the value of proper moisture. The issue would be not blocking any required air for normal growth along with introducing chemicals / acidity changes that also could effect the way keratin grows.


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## Yvonne G

Mud will actually draw out moisture. So that's not a good idea.


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## wellington

@Zamric used vita shell for his two leopards. They have grown very smooth. Maybe he can remind us how he used it.


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## WithLisa

Great article!


Markw84 said:


> In the wild, young tortoises, that are growing the most, are extremely hard to find and rarely reported. They not only are hiding from predators, but staying buried in sand, soil, leaf litter, mud puddles, they are also keeping their shells well hydrated.


That's why I think enclosures should be more naturalistic. I guess more than 90% of the baby enclosure pictures in the forum are showing mainly open space and hatchlings sitting directly under desiccating lamps, completely opposite of how they would live in the wild. 



Salspi said:


> Do you think that keeping the shell of a hatchling covered with a thin layer of mud for the first couple of years is a good idea? In captivity I’m saying.


My Hermanns are kept outside on dirt, the seams of the scutes are always covered in mud and I believe it protects the shell, so I only clean it off once or twice a year.


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## Markw84

Yvonne G said:


> Mud will actually draw out moisture. So that's not a good idea.


Interestingly, in my research, I found mud actually helps hydrate skin! IF you research mud masks, for example, they claim a lot of things, but there is agreement by dermatologists that they will help absorb excess oils, but they also help hydrate the skin.


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## Anyfoot

Excellent Mark, and thank you for taking the time to type this up. 

There are still unsolved mysteries to me. Knowing how keratin and bone grows also helps us understand how they act in the wild in the younger years. 
Unanswered questions for me are what is the diet of neonates in the wild. If they are hidden and dug in for long periods then where is the vitamins coming from for healthy growth. Vitamin D is the big one. Do all species eat bugs as a source of D3 in the early stages. I was under the impression at dawn and dusk uv levels are low, You wouldn't think neonates would venture out at the height of the day when sun hot hot hot because this would dry out keratin and force pyramiding. 
What about actual dirt, do they eat that because it's rich in vitamins and minerals when dug in?


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> Excellent Mark, and thank you for taking the time to type this up.
> 
> There are still unsolved mysteries to me. Knowing how keratin and bone grows also helps us understand how they act in the wild in the younger years.
> Unanswered questions for me are what is the diet of neonates in the wild. If they are hidden and dug in for long periods then where is the vitamins coming from for healthy growth. Vitamin D is the big one. Do all species eat bugs as a source of D3 in the early stages. I was under the impression at dawn and dusk uv levels are low, You wouldn't think neonates would venture out at the height of the day when sun hot hot hot because this would dry out keratin and force pyramiding.
> What about actual dirt, do they eat that because it's rich in vitamins and minerals when dug in?



So much that we do not know...


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## Salspi

WithLisa said:


> Great article!
> 
> That's why I think enclosures should be more naturalistic. I guess more than 90% of the baby enclosure pictures in the forum are showing mainly open space and hatchlings sitting directly under desiccating lamps, completely opposite of how they would live in the wild.
> 
> 
> My Hermanns are kept outside on dirt, the seams of the scutes are always covered in mud and I believe it protects the shell, so I only clean it off once or twice a year.


That’s a pretty good tip. Thanks


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## Salspi

Anyfoot said:


> Excellent Mark, and thank you for taking the time to type this up.
> 
> There are still unsolved mysteries to me. Knowing how keratin and bone grows also helps us understand how they act in the wild in the younger years.
> Unanswered questions for me are what is the diet of neonates in the wild. If they are hidden and dug in for long periods then where is the vitamins coming from for healthy growth. Vitamin D is the big one. Do all species eat bugs as a source of D3 in the early stages. I was under the impression at dawn and dusk uv levels are low, You wouldn't think neonates would venture out at the height of the day when sun hot hot hot because this would dry out keratin and force pyramiding.
> What about actual dirt, do they eat that because it's rich in vitamins and minerals when dug in?


If they can survive on eating soil, my mind will be blown.


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## Salspi

Yvonne G said:


> Mud will actually draw out moisture. So that's not a good idea.



I always thought that mud draws out toxins. One of the reason animals roll wounds in the mud is to stop inflammation


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## Anyfoot

Salspi said:


> If they can survive on eating soil, my mind will be blown.


i didn't mean only eat mud/dirt. I was thinking more like when they are eating weeds/grasses or bugs that dirt particles would be dragged in.
When I pick weeds in a morning there is always tiny slugs and bugs amongst the grass and weeds. When we've had a heavy rainfall the dirt actually bounces up onto the lower parts of the foliage. It wouldn't be beyond possibility that all neonates (even herbivores) are inadvertently eating tiny bugs and dirt particles that are amongst the foliage in micro climates.

I'm at the stage where nothing surprises me any more in the tortoise world, Nothing.


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## Salspi

I agree totally- hey an earthworm eats dirt.


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## Anyfoot

Why are some species more susceptible to pyramiding than others?


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## ColaCarbonaria

Anyfoot said:


> Excellent Mark, and thank you for taking the time to type this up.
> 
> There are still unsolved mysteries to me. Knowing how keratin and bone grows also helps us understand how they act in the wild in the younger years.
> Unanswered questions for me are what is the diet of neonates in the wild. If they are hidden and dug in for long periods then where is the vitamins coming from for healthy growth. Vitamin D is the big one. Do all species eat bugs as a source of D3 in the early stages. I was under the impression at dawn and dusk uv levels are low, You wouldn't think neonates would venture out at the height of the day when sun hot hot hot because this would dry out keratin and force pyramiding.
> What about actual dirt, do they eat that because it's rich in vitamins and minerals when dug in?



I was reading an old article on incubating RF eggs this weekend written by our own Carl May and he was talking about perlite & vermiculite and stated he witnessed hatchlings still in the egg reaching their heads down and eating the perlite and saw them pass this in some of their first BM. You can argue that perlite is white, unnatural and therefore be an attraction for a cb tortoise only, but a baby tortoise doesn’t know dirt is suppose to be brown, right? Nature not nurture. It leads me to believe they probably do ingest soil as a source of nutrients, at least in forest dwelling species especially, I would think the highly composted jungle floor would hold critical vitamins and minerals. This is why we use compost in our gardens. I know it’s only one observation but food for thought nonetheless.


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## Tom

ColaCarbonaria said:


> I was reading an old article on incubating RF eggs this weekend written by our own Carl May and he was talking about perlite & vermiculite and stated he witnessed hatchlings still in the egg reaching their heads down and eating the perlite and saw them pass this in some of their first BM. You can argue that perlite is white, unnatural and therefore be an attraction for a cb tortoise only, but a baby tortoise doesn’t know dirt is suppose to be brown, right? Nature not nurture. It leads me to believe they probably do ingest soil as a source of nutrients, at least in forest dwelling species especially, I would think the highly composted jungle floor would hold critical vitamins and minerals. This is why we use compost in our gardens. I know it’s only one observation but food for thought nonetheless.


All of my hatchlings do this. I incubate on vermiculite and I remove the babies from the incubator as soon as they leave the egg under their own power. This is usually a day or two from pipping. I always see a few little vermiculite flecks in their first poops.

A few years ago I bought some sulcata hatchlings from a breeder who incubated on perlite. A third of the babies failed, another third was mediocre, and the final third was fine. Necropsy revealed the GI tract of the failed ones was lined with gray sandy sludge. They had never been on sand or anything sand like. It was broken down perlite.

This is the reason why I tell everyone not to use perlite. I still hear breeders saying hatchlings don't eat while they have a yolk sac. I KNOW this is false. ALL of my hatchlings nibble on available food while they still have a yolk sac. I also don't understand breeders who leave the babies in the incubator for several days or a week while they are absorbing the yolk sac. Those babies are filling their GI tract with incubation media.


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## no one

Oh how I wish every Tortoise keeper and breeder read the stuff you guys write here on this forum. So much more knowledge and inside on proper Tortoise care!! 

Thank you...


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## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> Excellent Mark, and thank you for taking the time to type this up.
> 
> There are still unsolved mysteries to me. Knowing how keratin and bone grows also helps us understand how they act in the wild in the younger years.
> Unanswered questions for me are what is the diet of neonates in the wild. If they are hidden and dug in for long periods then where is the vitamins coming from for healthy growth. Vitamin D is the big one. Do all species eat bugs as a source of D3 in the early stages. I was under the impression at dawn and dusk uv levels are low, You wouldn't think neonates would venture out at the height of the day when sun hot hot hot because this would dry out keratin and force pyramiding.
> What about actual dirt, do they eat that because it's rich in vitamins and minerals when dug in?



@Tom is certainly correct - SOOOO much we just don't know yet. But with pyramiding, perhaps this is getting us to start asking the right questions.

With a baby hiding in leaf litter/composting vegetation, there would actually be food right there it is hiding in. And with that, very conceivably, bugs that could be providing some Vit D. But, just as one of the pictures you recently posted in your thread on white lines, all a baby has to do is stick out its head and a bit of the forelegs, to take advantage of some sunshine, and it could easily get enough D3 in a few minutes a week of this behavior. They certainly never have to "bask" as we think of it. Many of my aquatic turtles are very good at cryptic basking, where they are taking advantage of the sunlight, but still remaining quite hidden with little of them fully exposed.

Injesting substrate with the plants they eat, is indeed a source of minerals for many herbivores. That is true whether hidden, or an adult in the open grazing. Sometimes they will purposely eat small rocks, etc. to satisfy an apparent craving or need.

In the line of why some (more minor) pyramiding occurs even with humidity, I think another question, though, is whether the substrate, and the material in which they bury, possibly effecting keratin growth as well. The chemistry of the material in contact. In captivity are we exposing the shell to chlorine, or fluoride, or water too soft, without enough free calcium ions, or too acidic??? Is the moss used in some humid hides too acidic? or is the leaf litter used too alkaline? Humidity/hydration of the keratin is most important, but it is certainly reasonable to think that perhaps the chemistry of the environment also can have a more subtle effect on keratin growth as well. I'm certainly seeing more and more evidence that is coming into play in embryonic development of scutes and developing split scutes!!


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## ColaCarbonaria

Tom said:


> All of my hatchlings do this. I incubate on vermiculite and I remove the babies from the incubator as soon as they leave the egg under their own power. This is usually a day or two from pipping. I always see a few little vermiculite flecks in their first poops.
> 
> A few years ago I bought some sulcata hatchlings from a breeder who incubated on perlite. A third of the babies failed, another third was mediocre, and the final third was fine. Necropsy revealed the GI tract of the failed ones was lined with gray sandy sludge. They had never been on sand or anything sand like. It was broken down perlite.
> 
> This is the reason why I tell everyone not to use perlite. I still hear breeders saying hatchlings don't eat while they have a yolk sac. I KNOW this is false. ALL of my hatchlings nibble on available food while they still have a yolk sac. I also don't understand breeders who leave the babies in the incubator for several days or a week while they are absorbing the yolk sac. Those babies are filling their GI tract with incubation media.



Just reread and May does recommend vermiculite over perlite in article. Should have stated that to begin with.


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## Rob99

I am just a beginner but I love reading stuff like this. I love all the insight that that the article gives and the comments are so good thank you all for what you do on behalf of all or at least my tortoises appreciate it.


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## kellygirl64

I found your article to be very informative and understandable. Thanks so much for sharing it !! The tort on the scale is absolutely beautiful.


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## TammyJ

Living in the tropics, and having all kinds of natural grasses and weeds in my yard, I improve the humidity in both the outdoor and the indoor enclosures by (outdoor) placing a "mat" of damp leaves and weeds over the mesh wire top to cover the enclosure about 5/6ths, and (indoor) I provide a large bunch of green weeds and leaves which they invariably burrow into to sleep for the night, and the enclosure being almost completely covered anyway, it remains very humid overnight too.


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## Anyfoot

Anyfoot said:


> Why are some species more susceptible to pyramiding than others?


 Could some species have thinner keratin than others. So for example a Russian may have thinner keratin than a star tortoise. If the keratin is thinner then there would be less expansion of new keratin required to be level to old keratin and maybe less downwards pressure on bone.


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## BevSmith

Fantastic. Was just reading about pyramiding and discussing among friends. I was nearly convinced that it was due to genetics. 

This is so cool.


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## wellington

Just wanted to add. I got some leaf litter and put it in the hatchlings enclosure. After their soak, I put them back in their now leafy enclosure and within seconds, they were all gone. Buried under the leaves. Couldn't see not one of them. I had sprayed the leaves heavy with warm water and will several times thru the day. Now this is an enclosure with already high swampy humidity but leopards still pyramiding. Hoping them living within the wet leaves, helping to keep the top shell damp/wet, will help stop pyramiding and the leaves giving more cover from the hot lights.


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## Tom

wellington said:


> Just wanted to add. I got some leaf litter and put it in the hatchlings enclosure. After their soak, I put them back in their now leafy enclosure and within seconds, they were all gone. Buried under the leaves. Couldn't see not one of them. I had sprayed the leaves heavy with warm water and will several times thru the day. Now this is an enclosure with already high swampy humidity but leopards still pyramiding. Hoping them living within the wet leaves, helping to keep the top shell damp/wet, will help stop pyramiding and the leaves giving more cover from the hot lights.


What type of leaves did you use.

My concern with this technique is that they will eat the leaves. No problem if mulberry leaves are used, but some leaves are toxic.


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## wellington

Tom said:


> What type of leaves did you use.
> 
> My concern with this technique is that they will eat the leaves. No problem if mulberry leaves are used, but some leaves are toxic.


No, not toxic. They are dried left over leaves of the neighbors magnolia tree. I feed them in the summer when they blow into my yard. Already spoke to neighbors about the use of pesticides etc, they are free of that. they fall right along the fence/bush line so they don't really get raked up. The last couple days were warm and sunny, so they dried up and were easy to get. I should add the adults don't like them when dry. They are quite tuff. Not sure the babies would either. They did still come out to the food tile to eat.


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## Anyfoot

wellington said:


> Just wanted to add. I got some leaf litter and put it in the hatchlings enclosure. After their soak, I put them back in their now leafy enclosure and within seconds, they were all gone. Buried under the leaves. Couldn't see not one of them. I had sprayed the leaves heavy with warm water and will several times thru the day. Now this is an enclosure with already high swampy humidity but leopards still pyramiding. Hoping them living within the wet leaves, helping to keep the top shell damp/wet, will help stop pyramiding and the leaves giving more cover from the hot lights.


I now use dried leaves as part of my bedding too, one thing I've noticed is that some types of leaves mould. For example bayleaves mould very easy in damp conditions, so I no longer use bayleaves. Point is keep an eye on any leaf types for mould growth. Over time we will know what not to use.


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## Cowboy_Ken

In a fun twist to all of this, 3-4(?) years ago Tom and I were speecking about incubation substrate. I was “Old school” knowing I needed to use perlite and he was going on and on about them eating it. Ultimately I changed my ways and instead went with damp paper towels. Again, Tom warned me to watch to ensure it wasn’t getting eaten. Again, as if looking over my shoulder, Tom was correct in that call, I was watching my hatchlings going at those wet paper towels with gusto! 
The problem is you’ve still got to provide hydration for your youngin’s without giving them the opportunity to “play” in water or eat the medium. What I’ve found works great for me, (and yes, I stole the idea here) is I place an aquarium air-pump outsider the herbavator. To this I add an air stone submerged in a heavy bottomed coffee mug. I have the air pump hooked up to my humidifier so they both come on at the same time. This works so well I set my current leo hatchling up with the same setup for her indoor enclosure. 
I regularly feed weed and grass clumps, dirt and all, with all the creepy-crawlers in them. I’ve never seen one eaten, but then I don’t watch for that either. Typically, I place these clumps under the PowerSun figuring maybe I’d get a longer life from them. Now, I may start spreading them out more to provide a larger selection of hides than the one currently always used. I’ll let y’all know.


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## Tom

Cowboy_Ken said:


> In a fun twist to all of this, 3-4(?) years ago Tom and I were speecking about incubation substrate. I was “Old school” knowing I needed to use perlite and he was going on and on about them eating it. Ultimately I changed my ways and instead went with damp paper towels. Again, Tom warned me to watch to ensure it wasn’t getting eaten. Again, as if looking over my shoulder, Tom was correct in that call, I was watching my hatchlings going at those wet paper towels with gusto!
> The problem is you’ve still got to provide hydration for your youngin’s without giving them the opportunity to “play” in water or eat the medium. What I’ve found works great for me, (and yes, I stole the idea here) is I place an aquarium air-pump outsider the herbavator. To this I add an air stone submerged in a heavy bottomed coffee mug. I have the air pump hooked up to my humidifier so they both come on at the same time. This works so well I set my current leo hatchling up with the same setup for her indoor enclosure.
> I regularly feed weed and grass clumps, dirt and all, with all the creepy-crawlers in them. I’ve never seen one eaten, but then I don’t watch for that either. Typically, I place these clumps under the PowerSun figuring maybe I’d get a longer life from them. Now, I may start spreading them out more to provide a larger selection of hides than the one currently always used. I’ll let y’all know.


Pics?


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## Tom

Cowboy_Ken said:


> In a fun twist to all of this, 3-4(?) years ago Tom and I were speecking about incubation substrate. I was “Old school” knowing I needed to use perlite and he was going on and on about them eating it. Ultimately I changed my ways and instead went with damp paper towels. Again, Tom warned me to watch to ensure it wasn’t getting eaten. Again, as if looking over my shoulder, Tom was correct in that call, I was watching my hatchlings going at those wet paper towels with gusto!



Your first paragraph made me chuckle. Some times when new members start arguing with me about stuff, I ask them: "How do you think I know the things I'm telling you?" And hopefully I don't have to point out that while I've done whatever we are talking about lots of times, they have never done it.

Some people just gotta learn the hard way. I'm guilty of it myself sometimes.


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## sutra

Hi 
We are a rookie here, from Portugal. We have a great wheather here all over the year.

Read all Mark wrote and think that is a great work, investigation and well care.
We have learned so much with you. Thanks.
Here everyone's try to sell pyraminded turtles.
we are not breaders, just have them because we like the way they move.... 
If they matte?
yes, we heard them screaming, but do not intrude.
It's their life in nature. 
They live outdoors, do the hibernation/estivation outside.
All of them have chip and cites
Take care (do not own them, because they are free) of:
4 hermannis hermannis (1 male and 3 females) with about 30 years each
4 graecca mora females with 5 years (recently adopted)
2 marginatas, male and female with 10 years.

We would like to know if we can join the hermannis with the graeccas in the ground?
There is no graecca male, so there will be no fighting
Thank you all for reading this.



I


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## Tom

sutra said:


> We would like to know if we can join the hermannis with the graeccas in the ground?
> There is no graecca male, so there will be no fighting
> Thank you all for reading this.



Species should never be mixed. And females fight too sometimes.


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## sutra

Tom said:


> Species should never be mixed. And females fight too sometimes.


Thank you for your reply
And a question to Mark:
After they start pyramiding there's anyway to stop it?
These little gays 4 legs friends animals, give more trouble and care than 10 dogs I have.
Thk you all


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## Markw84

sutra said:


> Thank you for your reply
> And a question to Mark:
> After they start pyramiding there's anyway to stop it?
> These little gays 4 legs friends animals, give more trouble and care than 10 dogs I have.
> Thk you all



It is quite dependent upon how long it has been going on. If caught early and with a young tortoise, it is quite easy to get new growth to come in very smooth. What is already pyramided will remain that way, but new growth can make if less obvious over time. You end up with scutes that are pretty flat with a raised peak in the very center. If it has progressed and the tortoise is 3 years old or more, it is quite hard to reverse the growth pattern - especially in the vertebrals where all the bone is fully ossified. Also, at the vertebrals, the bone beneath is 10 different bones that are covered by the 5 vertebral scutes. So the actual plane of the whole bone becomes tipped. The costals can still start to smooth out new growth quite easily up to about 5-6 years.


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## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> I remember as a young boy one of the things that fueled my interest with chelonians was seeing how much was just NOT KNOWN about them. When I became fascinated with an animal, I ran to the encyclopedia to find out about it. I also always went to the library and checked out every book I could find on the subject. What is the best diet? Temperature? How about incubating eggs when I got them? Nowhere could I find anything about what temperature was best. So I had to figure things out myself. Today we are so lucky with information at our fingertips. The internet – this forum! Yet still today, when it comes to chelonians, so much still seems to no be KNOWN. Most everything is, at best, debated. Some proposing one way, while another ‘expert’ says that won’t work. But we do have a chance now to see literally thousands of examples of results. But even results can be misleading if we don’t take into consideration the unique conditions that keeper in that part of the world provided. So little seems to be KNOWN!
> 
> Pyramiding is one of the best examples. In todays world of modern technology and scientific knowledge, there is still no proposed theory anywhere on how, metabolically, pyramiding even happens. It was just the last decade that it even became more apparent how to even prevent it. But that is still hotly debated. Most import of wild caught tortoises has been stopped for some time now. Pyramided tortoise has become the norm. Most pictures and artwork depicting tortoise show pyramided tortoise as “normal”!
> 
> We have enough evidence now to see that humidity is the key to preventing it. I can now grow smooth tortoises at will, after over 40 years of never being able to. I tried side by side groups of low protein vs higher protein groups. Groups of Fast growth vs slow growth. 3 groups of Store bough greens vs commercial pellets, vs natural grazing only. Stable temperatures vs night drops. Everything all the ‘experts’ said, I tried. Then I heard about humidity. I found this forum and read Tom’s thread on ending pyramiding. It all made sense immediately. I think it was the frustration of failing so many times and having to try so many proposed solutions that allowed me to find all the things that did not affect pyramiding. So many who have not had to struggle with it because of their location do not have that perspective. They will say it is diet, exercise, slower growth, etc, etc. All necessary for the most healthy of tortoises, but I found had nothing to do with pyramiding.
> 
> So, once I found out how to keep tortoises from pyramiding, the question still remained – why? Why did humidity work? Why didn’t diet or fast growth or exercise matter? I needed to know why! And no one, nowhere, knew why. There were enough pieces to the puzzle that were known. I had watched tortoise grow for decades. I monitored how pyramiding started and progressed. I could see what was happening. But to put the remaining pieces together took me into research in the anatomy and physiology of tortoise, keratin growth, bone growth, and even orthodontics.
> 
> A tortoise is a very uniquely modified animal. It is a vertebrate, yet carries its main skeletal structure on the outside. To protect this outside, exposed bone, another protective layer of keratin has developed over the bone. This is a unique adaptation as two hard surfaces normally do not come immediately in contact with each other in vertebrates. Bones are surrounded by cartilage and muscle - and even in more exposed areas, layers of hair and skin that cushion and provide ample blood flow. Keratin is also an interesting substance. Forming hair, nails, feathers, horns, it normally grows where the new keratin being formed is protected by living tissue from drying too quickly. Cuticles, hair follicles, feather sheaths, scalp around the base of horns, etc, etc. The tortoise, however, grows keratin that is exposed immediately to the external environment as it starts to spread and grow. No protective covering on the outside growth areas.
> 
> If you watch a tortoise grow and pyramid, you soon see that pyramiding is driven by the scutes, not by bone. For maximum strength, the scutes of a tortoise never align with the seams of an underlying bone. They all overlap - creating a very strong structure. Yet when a tortoise pyramids, the pyramiding ALWAYS follows the pattern of the scute. Where individual bones lay has no effect on the pattern of pyramiding. The scute remains a uniform thickness. It does not thicken in the center. The bone also retains a fairly uniform thickness, but deforms to match to shape of the pyramiding. Bone would not grow that way unless something was forcing it to deform. I also saw that pyramiding was the forming of valleys at the seams of scutes, not the raising of the centers. A perfectly smooth tortoise will have the higher, more domed look that matches the peaks of a pyramided tortoise, not the valleys.
> 
> From studies on keratin, we see that keratin is quite hydroscopic when new and forming. It is more pliable and absorbs water easily. As it matures, and “dries” it becomes much harder and stiffer and loses most of its hydroscopic properties and no longer absorbs water and swells. It becomes a much stiffer and stronger, protective substance. Tortoises add very little thickness to a scute as it grows. New keratin is formed at the seams of the spreading scutes as a tortoise grows. As the underlying bone grows, the seam spreads between the scutes. Keratin spreads outward to fill this seam and slowly adds thickness, swelling to match the “finished” thickness of the scute. Often, this new keratin will swell thicker than the older scute section and create a ridge in a faster growing “smooth” tortoise. This will dry and age over the next several months and smooth out to a more flush level, but leave a distinct ‘growth ring’. The thickness of the scute of a 30” sulcata is pretty much the same as a 15” sulcata. New keratin is not added to the underside of the central parts of scutes as a tortoise grows.
> 
> They have no protective layer over the new keratin growth, so the outside of the newly forming keratin is exposed to the environment. If while this new keratin is growing and spreading, it is exposed to conditions that allow it to dry too quickly, it will lose its ability to continue to swell and fill in thickness. The underside of the keratin, in direct contact to living tissue (the epithelial layer) still is pliable and swelling. This imbalance forces the new growth to swell downward as it cannot continue to fill in upward. This puts a small but constant pressure on that epithelial layer and puts it in compression as it is being pressed into the bone below. This is the beginning of pyramiding.
> 
> How does this slight pressure deform bone? As mentioned earlier, the tortoise shell is very uncommon in vertebrates in having bone next to a hard surface. There is a very thin layer of tissue that separated the bone from the scutes called the epithelial layer. This delivers blood supply and nutrients to the bone and new keratin growth and creates a barrier between the bone and the hard scute. Epithelial tissues are everywhere in a vertebrate. It covers the outside of your body (skin), lines organs, vessels, and cavities. But it also is defined by not covering a hard surface and in direct contact with bone. However, there is one place I found something most similar to this positioning of hard surfaces. Teeth and the jaw bone. There is a layer formed between the teeth and the jawbone that separates and somewhat cushions the jawbone from the teeth. It is called the periodontal ligament. It still retains pockets of epithelial cells throughout that effects some of its functions. AND, it was In studying examples of how bone can be deformed or reshaped, I again was lead to teeth.
> 
> When a slight but consistent pressure is applied to a tooth, it puts the periodontal ligament into compression on one side of the tooth in the direction of the pressure. That triggers the formation of an important type of cell in our bodies called osteoclasts. Osteoclasts are specialized cells that break down and dissolve bone. Bones are constantly restructuring and rebuilding. Another type cell, the osteoblast – builds new bone. This adds density to our bones and grows our bones when we are younger. Under stress, (exercise) it is triggered to build density and more strength. Osteoclasts, on the other hand, are called into play to remove older bone, and also to tap into the stores of calcium and phosphorus in our bones in times where our levels of calcium or phosphorus in our blood drops too low. Our bones are more than an inert structural item. They are living, constantly remodeling stores of tissue and minerals.
> 
> So how do they move teeth? Apply a slight but constant pressure on a tooth. That puts the periodontal ligament in compression on one side of the tooth. That triggers the formation of a bunch of extra osteoclasts that form at that site of the pressure and start dissolving bone to relieve that pressure. On the other side of the tooth, the periodontal ligament is then in tension. This triggers osteoblasts that are called into action and an abundance of osteoblasts go to work forming new bone to fill in the area that is putting the periodontal ligament in tension. So - the bone is not deformed. It is broken down and removed on one side and new bone is built on the other side.
> 
> In our tortoises, when the new keratin dries to quickly, it is putting that epithelial layer into compression as the new keratin growth can only swell and fill in downward. The epithelial layer call osteoclasts into action at the site to dissolve and remove bone and relieve the compression on that epithelial layer. This creates a groove in the bone directly under the new growth. Even in smooth, “normal growth” tortoises, you can often see grooves in the bone formed by the growth rings. However, if the dry conditions persist and the tortoise continues to grow in conditions that are too dry, the newly forming seam will also press down on the epithelial layer over the bone and deepen the groove forming into a valley. If this continues, the actual plane of the bone is changed to the pyramided shape. Bone does not grow from the seams, but instead grows from wide areas throughout the bone. So the tipped areas themselves (particularly along the vertebrals with more bones than scutes) will be growing bone in a direction that will simply add to the pyramiding. That will make it much harder to alter the pyramiding in a tortoise once it has progressed substantially. Yet a young tortoise, with just the start of pyramiding, can develop quite smooth future growth easily at an earlier stage that hasn’t progressed too far.
> 
> So - for me this answered all the questions. All the pieces fit and all the scenarios I actually see, anywhere, all fit. There are two things needed to pyramid a tortoise. Active growth and dry conditions. It is only by putting the epithelial layer into compression that osteoclasts will be formed to dissolve bone under the area in compression.
> 
> Diet will not matter. Pressure triggers osteoclast genesis. With poor diet you can have a tortoise with pyramiding PLUS metabolic bone disease. If anything, the pyramiding is releasing a bit more calcium into the bloodstream to help bone growth elsewhere! If diet is so poor that growth is stopped, of course there would be no pyramiding because there is no growth of new keratin.
> 
> Excess protein will not trigger osteoclast genesis. And certainly not only in specific areas under scute seams. Excess protein will create excess purines and possible stone formation problems. Smooth or pyramided!
> 
> Exercise does trigger osteoblasts genesis and better bone growth and density. It does not trigger osteoclast genesis and again would have no effect on localizing that under scute seams.
> 
> Fast growth does not affect pyramiding. You can have fast growing smooth tortoises and fast growing pyramided tortoises. Just as you can have slow growing smooth tortoises or slow growing pyramided tortoises. If they grow, fast or slow, when conditions are too dry – they will pyramid.
> 
> UVB exposure will not change pyramiding. It will certainly affect calcium uptake and utilization as D3 is necessary for that. So it will affect bone growth, but will not trigger bone dissolving in such a specific, localized area as only under the scute seams. In extreme cases, it will lead to metabolic bone disease as osteoclasts are triggered throughout the greater storage rich bone areas as it looks to release calcium back in to the blood stream. But that is also more concentrated in the hip and pelvic bones and plastral bones. Not at all calling osteoclasts into play under scute seams. Totally separate metabolic events.
> 
> Tortoises have ended up in the wild in “left over” habitats. They have been outcompeted and predated upon in any of the more favorable habitats. Their survival is because the have found way to survive in habitats that are much more hostile. Water is the key ingredient to survival. They are masters at maintaining it and finding microclimates that are less harsh. Nature gives them food and growth along with the moisture. In drier times, the food disappears, and the tortoise aestivates or brumates and does not grow. Their first few years, most tortoises spend their lives buried in the ground, or in leaf litter, always protecting themselves not only from predation, but from desiccation.
> 
> In so many areas their ‘natural range’ has been altered by man. With the advent of irrigation and reservoirs, the expansion of agriculture into their native ranges has even changed the food availability to drier times of the year and we see pyramided “wild” tortoises. Or so many now kept in compounds and fed through drier times and kept from digging and burrowing naturally – it is hard to tell what a “natural” tortoise looks like. We would have to look back 1000 years or so in many areas to really see a true wild tortoise in totally unchanged habitat. Certainly, in captivity, we have changed the way they live and the way they look.
> 
> Perhaps we are now learning enough to finally learn the conditions in which these amazing animals will do best. I am seeing more and more examples of tortoises that I believe look the way they were designed to grow. Maybe that will soon become the norm. Hopefully in the not too distant future we will see smooth tortoises again represented in the pictures and artwork depicting their species.


 I'd be interested in your thoughts on this theory @domalle


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## domalle

Anyfoot said:


> I'd be interested in your thoughts on this theory @domalle



@Anyfoot
Beyond my capabilities on the technical side of the issue but impressed by @Markw84's insight, erudition and effort in the presentation of the argument so eloquently. Humidity is a *major* factor in raising smooth tortoises but 'old school'. Have raised smooth animals on newspaper bedding (for reasons of hygiene) under suboptimal conditions of humidity. Admittedly this was due to limitations on facilities, not out of any rejection of the beneficial aspects of humidity and hydration on shell formation and development. And the animals were exposed to naturally humid outside summer quarters in a semi-wild state with free graze.


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## keepergale

So this great thread got me thinking. I think I remember reading much of a tortoises UV absorbson is thru their skin. In any case, I was thinking if the scute edges are the critical area of the carapace development shouldn’t it be safe to topically apply the moisturizing agent of your choosing only there. I don’t know if that should be coconut oil, specialized tortoise shell products or even Vaseline. Any safe semi permanent product would do.
If I am wrong about UV absorbtion thru the carapace the limited application I am suggesting should not have a negative effect anyway.


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## Anyfoot

keepergale said:


> So this great thread got me thinking. I think I remember reading much of a tortoises UV absorbson is thru their skin. In any case, I was thinking if the scute edges are the critical area of the carapace development shouldn’t it be safe to topically apply the moisturizing agent of your choosing only there. I don’t know if that should be coconut oil, specialized tortoise shell products or even Vaseline. Any safe semi permanent product would do.
> If I am wrong about UV absorbtion thru the carapace the limited application I am suggesting should not have a negative effect anyway.


 We don't know for a fact but we don't think UV absorption is through the carapace. If I'm understanding you correctly, Yes only the scute borders where new growth is needs moisturising. I've thought of this for quite some time, but I have shares in a coconut oil factory.


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## Anyfoot

domalle said:


> @Anyfoot
> Beyond my capabilities on the technical side of the issue but impressed by @Markw84's insight, erudition and effort in the presentation of the argument so eloquently. Humidity is a *major* factor in raising smooth tortoises but 'old school'. Have raised smooth animals on newspaper bedding (for reasons of hygiene) under suboptimal conditions of humidity. Admittedly this was due to limitations on facilities, not out of any rejection of the beneficial aspects of humidity and hydration on shell formation and development. And the animals were exposed to naturally humid outside summer quarters in a semi-wild state with free graze.


 
Has the old school raised smooth tortoises on newspaper from the egg? To get a 12 or even a 6 month old tort and start raising it in a dry environment and for it to grow on smooth would be a false reading. The first 6 or 12 months could have been humid to give it a good start and less of a chance of pyramiding at a later stage even when kept on newspaper in a dry environment.


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## Anyfoot

This may just be some random nonsense,but I do think all observations should be thrown in the pot regardless. 
My radiateds carapace do not hold moisture like my redfoots do. If I wet the radiated the water turns to droplets and just runs off, except at the borders where new growth is, this area absorbs the moisture. 
If I do the same with my redfoots their entire carapace absorbs moisture giving them a dull Matt color. However the redfoots will be dry again within the hour. Even with 80% humidity and no drying heat source. 
My radiateds carapace look more glossy and less porous than the redfoots. 
It may well be because I've maintained moisture from the egg on the redfoots and created a more porous surface than what the breeder did with my radiated. IDK.


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## Anyfoot

Something else I thought about in the past is why do some tortoises have scutes pulled together. Is it where an intense heat supply has dried out one side of the scute more than the other. So 2 scutes that have pulled together have been kept dryer where they meet. In effect the adjacent scute sides are more pyramiding than the opposite sides of those 2 scutes. 
This then leads onto the question, could I actually make a tortoise pyramid on only certain scutes I select to pyramid?(not that I ever would want to). If I raised a tort in a dry climate with no basking spots, and coconuted let's say the back 3 vertebral scute borders would I force the rest to pyramid. I would think the answer is NO. So that means the new keratin either tracks moisture very easily or internal moisture is playing a bigger role than we think, or it's all about humidity because that would nearly always be equal over the carapace, and torts with pulled scutes is either a birth defect or incorrect use of heat sources.


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## Markw84

keepergale said:


> So this great thread got me thinking. I think I remember reading much of a tortoises UV absorbson is thru their skin. In any case, I was thinking if the scute edges are the critical area of the carapace development shouldn’t it be safe to topically apply the moisturizing agent of your choosing only there. I don’t know if that should be coconut oil, specialized tortoise shell products or even Vaseline. Any safe semi permanent product would do.
> If I am wrong about UV absorbtion thru the carapace the limited application I am suggesting should not have a negative effect anyway.



UVB penetration is effected greatly by skin color and skin thickness. UVB does not penetrate keratin. Dark colors quickly reduce UVB penetration. A good supply of blood flow to the area is also vital. This process happens in skin cells and, more particularly, the plasma membrane of skin cells. There is a different cellular structure at the scute seams. So the only real areas where UVB is utilized for the beginning of D3 synthesis is the thinner skin of the neck, and the underside and upper parts of the legs. These areas normally have much thinner skin and the skin is normally lighter colored there. I don't see how there would be any UVB synthesis going on at the scute seams.


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## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> This may just be some random nonsense,but I do think all observations should be thrown in the pot regardless.
> My radiateds carapace do not hold moisture like my redfoots do. If I wet the radiated the water turns to droplets and just runs off, except at the borders where new growth is, this area absorbs the moisture.
> If I do the same with my redfoots their entire carapace absorbs moisture giving them a dull Matt color. However the redfoots will be dry again within the hour. Even with 80% humidity and no drying heat source.
> My radiateds carapace look more glossy and less porous than the redfoots.
> It may well be because I've maintained moisture from the egg on the redfoots and created a more porous surface than what the breeder did with my radiated. IDK.


I could certainly believe that the way you are raising your redfoot keeps their keratin in the scutes far more hydrosopic. Exposure to drier conditions for times, and aging would cause the keratin to become much harder, and more resistant to any water uptake and also thus protecting the tortoise more from water loss. That could be why the early years are so important on shell development, and why we are seeing young tortoises remain so cryptic and avoid exposure to any drying conditions so well in nature.


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## domalle

Anyfoot said:


> Has the old school raised smooth tortoises on newspaper from the egg? To get a 12 or even a 6 month old tort and start raising it in a dry environment and for it to grow on smooth would be a false reading. The first 6 or 12 months could have been humid to give it a good start and less of a chance of pyramiding at a later stage even when kept on newspaper in a dry environment.



@Anyfoot 
The humid summer months and time outside in the semi-wild state with natural sunlight and graze proved adequate for shell development, with our limited samples, despite the drier conditions indoors most of the year. But I am by no means dismissing current ideas on humidity and the physiology of shell development, just leery when it becomes true religion orthodoxy and tips over into the dogmatic and doctrinaire.
It would be the height of foolishness to espouse raising hatchlings of any kind on newspaper to the novice or typical petkeeper, although ours grew up the most literate of tortoises and did very well in school.
Petkeepers are feeling pressured now to produce 'perfect' animals with exacting requirements blared out on the forum and parroted by the newly initiated.
We all make mistakes along the way. There is room for error. It is by these sometimes painful learning experiences and errors, not indoctrination, that we become 'experienced' keepers. There are no magic formulae, just decent and reasonable guidelines.


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## Peggy Sue

Very informative article Mark! Helped me understand pyramiding, I am very interested in the coconut oil theory can anyone tell me what kind they use and how often? And does it inter fear with the daily soaks? Or is the moisture still absorbed through the shell with the oil on it?


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## Tom

domalle said:


> @Anyfoot
> Beyond my capabilities on the technical side of the issue but impressed by @Markw84's insight, erudition and effort in the presentation of the argument so eloquently. Humidity is a *major* factor in raising smooth tortoises but 'old school'. Have raised smooth animals on newspaper bedding (for reasons of hygiene) under suboptimal conditions of humidity. Admittedly this was due to limitations on facilities, not out of any rejection of the beneficial aspects of humidity and hydration on shell formation and development. And the animals were exposed to naturally humid outside summer quarters in a semi-wild state with free graze.


What species are you referring to here, and what growth rates did you see during these indoor dry times? Did they do most of their growing in the more humid outdoor conditions?


----------



## Markw84

Peggy Sue said:


> Very informative article Mark! Helped me understand pyramiding, I am very interested in the coconut oil theory can anyone tell me what kind they use and how often? And does it inter fear with the daily soaks? Or is the moisture still absorbed through the shell with the oil on it?


The "coconut oil theory" is not widely accepted by many it seems. But i am seeing more and more examples where it seems to have merit in HELPING.

The issue is keeping new keratin growth, especially in younger, actively growing tortoise, from desiccating and drying too quickly. When the type of keratin that forms tortoise scutes dries out, it becomes very stiff, water resistant and strong. That become a good protective shield for a tortoise. But while the keratin is still forming and thickening at new growth seams, if it dries too quickly, it becomes stiffer and hardens before the seam has fully formed. So we are becoming aware it is important to create an environment for young tortoises where that drying does not occur.

In nature, growth in wetter times and staying buried or covered in leaf litter and deep in grass clumps does this. Young tortoises are rarely ever seen in the wild and very hard to find. The nest the mother dug and the eggshell protected the keratin developing for the embryo tortoise. Once they hatch, most will stay in the moist nest chamber until rain and moisture from above stimulates them to dig up and emerge. But then, they must find cover immediately. Not only for protection from predators, but to protect their develping shells (and themselves) from drying out. They seem like perfect little fully formed tortoises, but in reality, they are still too fragile for the environment they can find themselves in.

I believe we are just learning the extent of this. In captivity, we therefore need to find ways to help them continue that early development and create environments that allow that to happen. This is not just an effort to grow a "perfect" looking tortoise. That is what we see on the outside. But the drying is doing more than pyramiding the shell. It is also effecting the formation of the organs and functions of the tortoise. So for me, seeing how well their shell is developing gives me insight into how well the entire tortoise is being allowed to develop. Their entire structure and lifestyle has developed to preserve moisture. Until they are more fully formed, they must be much better about protecting themselves. Once their shell, and their organs and metabolism has grown to a more resistant level, they are much better equipped to be "out and about". I think this realization is helping us understand why we see so many baby tortoise simply "fail to thrive".

We can therefore raise the humidity in their enclosures. This helps keep the tortoise from desiccating. Not just the shell, but the entire tortoise. Same with daily soaking and humid hides or plenty of humid cover.

SO.. now to your question directly - Coconut oil may indeed help keep a tortoise's shell growing better as it does seem it should keep the new keratin from drying excessively and retain moisture. So in an effort to grow a pretty, perfect looking tortoise, it may have great added value. However, we must still be sure the inside of the tortoise is not drying excessively. So this could be a misleading "solution" if it ever is seen as a substitute for humidity. I don't want to just grow a nice looking tortoise. I want the whole tortoise allowed to grow properly during those early growing years. Coconut oil applied once or twice a week as a moisturizing agent for the shell would not interfere with and certainly should not replace the bath. Moisture is not absorbed through the shell. We are trying to keep the new growth seams from drying out and losing moisture. But we are also trying to allow the tortoise to drink and soak and absorb water through skin contact in the bath. The same with humidity in the enclosure. The shell, the skin, the eyes, the insides of the lungs as it breathes - everything needs moisture. Not just the shell.

My interest in pyramiding is not to grow a perfect looking tortoise. My interest in pyramiding is because the way the shell grows is our visible sign we can take note of on how the ENTIRE tortoise is growing - inside and out.


----------



## Peggy Sue

T


Markw84 said:


> The "coconut oil theory" is not widely accepted by many it seems. But i am seeing more and more examples where it seems to have merit in HELPING.
> 
> The issue is keeping new keratin growth, especially in younger, actively growing tortoise, from desiccating and drying too quickly. When the type of keratin that forms tortoise scutes dries out, it becomes very stiff, water resistant and strong. That become a good protective shield for a tortoise. But while the keratin is still forming and thickening at new growth seams, if it dries too quickly, it becomes stiffer and hardens before the seam has fully formed. So we are becoming aware it is important to create an environment for young tortoises where that drying does not occur.
> 
> In nature, growth in wetter times and staying buried or covered in leaf litter and deep in grass clumps does this. Young tortoises are rarely ever seen in the wild and very hard to find. The nest the mother dug and the eggshell protected the keratin developing for the embryo tortoise. Once they hatch, most will stay in the moist nest chamber until rain and moisture from above stimulates them to dig up and emerge. But then, they must find cover immediately. Not only for protection from predators, but to protect their develping shells (and themselves) from drying out. They seem like perfect little fully formed tortoises, but in reality, they are still too fragile for the environment they can find themselves in.
> 
> I believe we are just learning the extent of this. In captivity, we therefore need to find ways to help them continue that early development and create environments that allow that to happen. This is not just an effort to grow a "perfect" looking tortoise. That is what we see on the outside. But the drying is doing more than pyramiding the shell. It is also effecting the formation of the organs and functions of the tortoise. So for me, seeing how well their shell is developing gives me insight into how well the entire tortoise is being allowed to develop. Their entire structure and lifestyle has developed to preserve moisture. Until they are more fully formed, they must be much better about protecting themselves. Once their shell, and their organs and metabolism has grown to a more resistant level, they are much better equipped to be "out and about". I think this realization is helping us understand why we see so many baby tortoise simply "fail to thrive".
> 
> We can therefore raise the humidity in their enclosures. This helps keep the tortoise from desiccating. Not just the shell, but the entire tortoise. Same with daily soaking and humid hides or plenty of humid cover.
> 
> SO.. now to your question directly - Coconut oil may indeed help keep a tortoise's shell growing better as it does seem it should keep the new keratin from drying excessively and retain moisture. So in an effort to grow a pretty, perfect looking tortoise, it may have great added value. However, we must still be sure the inside of the tortoise is not drying excessively. So this could be a misleading "solution" if it ever is seen as a substitute for humidity. I don't want to just grow a nice looking tortoise. I want the whole tortoise allowed to grow properly during those early growing years. Coconut oil applied once or twice a week as a moisturizing agent for the shell would not interfere with and certainly should not replace the bath. Moisture is not absorbed through the shell. We are trying to keep the new growth seams from drying out and losing moisture. But we are also trying to allow the tortoise to drink and soak and absorb water through skin contact in the bath. The same with humidity in the enclosure. The shell, the skin, the eyes, the insides of the lungs as it breathes - everything needs moisture. Not just the shell.
> 
> My interest in pyramiding is not to grow a perfect looking tortoise. My interest in pyramiding is because the way the shell grows is our visible sign we can take note of on how the ENTIRE tortoise is growing - inside and out.


Thank you for the excellent answer Mark we lost a baby to the failure to thrive, so with our Sheldon I am looking to make sure we raise a healthy tortoise he get a soak in the morning and one in the evening and has the proper humidity


----------



## MichaelaW

Markw84 said:


> The "coconut oil theory" is not widely accepted by many it seems. But i am seeing more and more examples where it seems to have merit in HELPING.
> 
> The issue is keeping new keratin growth, especially in younger, actively growing tortoise, from desiccating and drying too quickly. When the type of keratin that forms tortoise scutes dries out, it becomes very stiff, water resistant and strong. That become a good protective shield for a tortoise. But while the keratin is still forming and thickening at new growth seams, if it dries too quickly, it becomes stiffer and hardens before the seam has fully formed. So we are becoming aware it is important to create an environment for young tortoises where that drying does not occur.
> 
> In nature, growth in wetter times and staying buried or covered in leaf litter and deep in grass clumps does this. Young tortoises are rarely ever seen in the wild and very hard to find. The nest the mother dug and the eggshell protected the keratin developing for the embryo tortoise. Once they hatch, most will stay in the moist nest chamber until rain and moisture from above stimulates them to dig up and emerge. But then, they must find cover immediately. Not only for protection from predators, but to protect their develping shells (and themselves) from drying out. They seem like perfect little fully formed tortoises, but in reality, they are still too fragile for the environment they can find themselves in.
> 
> I believe we are just learning the extent of this. In captivity, we therefore need to find ways to help them continue that early development and create environments that allow that to happen. This is not just an effort to grow a "perfect" looking tortoise. That is what we see on the outside. But the drying is doing more than pyramiding the shell. It is also effecting the formation of the organs and functions of the tortoise. So for me, seeing how well their shell is developing gives me insight into how well the entire tortoise is being allowed to develop. Their entire structure and lifestyle has developed to preserve moisture. Until they are more fully formed, they must be much better about protecting themselves. Once their shell, and their organs and metabolism has grown to a more resistant level, they are much better equipped to be "out and about". I think this realization is helping us understand why we see so many baby tortoise simply "fail to thrive".
> 
> We can therefore raise the humidity in their enclosures. This helps keep the tortoise from desiccating. Not just the shell, but the entire tortoise. Same with daily soaking and humid hides or plenty of humid cover.
> 
> SO.. now to your question directly - Coconut oil may indeed help keep a tortoise's shell growing better as it does seem it should keep the new keratin from drying excessively and retain moisture. So in an effort to grow a pretty, perfect looking tortoise, it may have great added value. However, we must still be sure the inside of the tortoise is not drying excessively. So this could be a misleading "solution" if it ever is seen as a substitute for humidity. I don't want to just grow a nice looking tortoise. I want the whole tortoise allowed to grow properly during those early growing years. Coconut oil applied once or twice a week as a moisturizing agent for the shell would not interfere with and certainly should not replace the bath. Moisture is not absorbed through the shell. We are trying to keep the new growth seams from drying out and losing moisture. But we are also trying to allow the tortoise to drink and soak and absorb water through skin contact in the bath. The same with humidity in the enclosure. The shell, the skin, the eyes, the insides of the lungs as it breathes - everything needs moisture. Not just the shell.
> 
> My interest in pyramiding is not to grow a perfect looking tortoise. My interest in pyramiding is because the way the shell grows is our visible sign we can take note of on how the ENTIRE tortoise is growing - inside and out.


Great points! In reality I believe the goal should be to produce a healthy tortoise using the correct environmental conditions, as opposed to remedying the outward visible appearance using a topical substance like oils.


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## domalle

View attachment 232319
View attachment 232320


Tom said:


> What species are you referring to here, and what growth rates did you see during these indoor dry times? Did they do most of their growing in the more humid outdoor conditions?




The time outside in fresh air and natural sunlight compensated for the drier winter months. Growth was steady and even. Most occurred, or at least was most observed, during winter downtime 'rest' periods.

Here is a sample specimen, raised here on a majority fruit diet, no supplemental lighting, five month summer outdoors. No daily soaks, spray til they drip culture, or artificial closed chamber.


----------



## domalle

Markw84 said:


> The "coconut oil theory" is not widely accepted by many it seems. But i am seeing more and more examples where it seems to have merit in HELPING.
> 
> The issue is keeping new keratin growth, especially in younger, actively growing tortoise, from desiccating and drying too quickly. When the type of keratin that forms tortoise scutes dries out, it becomes very stiff, water resistant and strong. That become a good protective shield for a tortoise. But while the keratin is still forming and thickening at new growth seams, if it dries too quickly, it becomes stiffer and hardens before the seam has fully formed. So we are becoming aware it is important to create an environment for young tortoises where that drying does not occur.
> 
> In nature, growth in wetter times and staying buried or covered in leaf litter and deep in grass clumps does this. Young tortoises are rarely ever seen in the wild and very hard to find. The nest the mother dug and the eggshell protected the keratin developing for the embryo tortoise. Once they hatch, most will stay in the moist nest chamber until rain and moisture from above stimulates them to dig up and emerge. But then, they must find cover immediately. Not only for protection from predators, but to protect their develping shells (and themselves) from drying out. They seem like perfect little fully formed tortoises, but in reality, they are still too fragile for the environment they can find themselves in.
> 
> I believe we are just learning the extent of this. In captivity, we therefore need to find ways to help them continue that early development and create environments that allow that to happen. This is not just an effort to grow a "perfect" looking tortoise. That is what we see on the outside. But the drying is doing more than pyramiding the shell. It is also effecting the formation of the organs and functions of the tortoise. So for me, seeing how well their shell is developing gives me insight into how well the entire tortoise is being allowed to develop. Their entire structure and lifestyle has developed to preserve moisture. Until they are more fully formed, they must be much better about protecting themselves. Once their shell, and their organs and metabolism has grown to a more resistant level, they are much better equipped to be "out and about". I think this realization is helping us understand why we see so many baby tortoise simply "fail to thrive".
> 
> We can therefore raise the humidity in their enclosures. This helps keep the tortoise from desiccating. Not just the shell, but the entire tortoise. Same with daily soaking and humid hides or plenty of humid cover.
> 
> SO.. now to your question directly - Coconut oil may indeed help keep a tortoise's shell growing better as it does seem it should keep the new keratin from drying excessively and retain moisture. So in an effort to grow a pretty, perfect looking tortoise, it may have great added value. However, we must still be sure the inside of the tortoise is not drying excessively. So this could be a misleading "solution" if it ever is seen as a substitute for humidity. I don't want to just grow a nice looking tortoise. I want the whole tortoise allowed to grow properly during those early growing years. Coconut oil applied once or twice a week as a moisturizing agent for the shell would not interfere with and certainly should not replace the bath. Moisture is not absorbed through the shell. We are trying to keep the new growth seams from drying out and losing moisture. But we are also trying to allow the tortoise to drink and soak and absorb water through skin contact in the bath. The same with humidity in the enclosure. The shell, the skin, the eyes, the insides of the lungs as it breathes - everything needs moisture. Not just the shell.
> 
> My interest in pyramiding is not to grow a perfect looking tortoise. My interest in pyramiding is because the way the shell grows is our visible sign we can take note of on how the ENTIRE tortoise is growing - inside and out.




The reclusive nature and cryptic behavior of tortoise babies during their most vulnerable phase has been long recognized. Utilization of humid microclimates by burrowing into soil level litter, grass tussocks and leaf debris as a strategy to avoid predation and dessication has likewise been well documented.

Not my point that we should not aspire to produce healthy, well-formed animals and provide optimal conditions during early stages of development. Of course we should. Every keeper has an obligation to provide the best care and optimum state of overall health for the animals they steward.

A well-formed shell is a reliable indicator of good culture and overall health, of which hydration is an integral part.

Your work and thought on the molecular underpinnings and effect of hydration on shell formation are impressive. But dismissing all other possible contributing factors suggests the matter settled, declares the subject closed, and cuts off further investigation, discussion and dialogue. (If that were even possible, given pyramiding as a topic seems never ending).

I much admire my friend @Anyfoot for his earnest and methodical search for answers to his many questions. But I do not like to see him driven to distraction in the process and hope he will be able to relax and sit back, enjoy and appreciate his great many successes to date.


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## Anyfoot

@Markw84
Any idea why redfoots seem to grow off the areola with super smoothness before the obvious growth rings kick in?
Do sears and sullies grow the same? 

@mtdavis254817 I stole your photo. Hope you don’t mind. He’s a perfect example.


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## Markw84

@Anyfoot Craig:

From my observations, it seems to me that ridges are created by STOPS in growth. When I have nice consistent growth, I then see the smoothest and less defined ridges forming. When I see a bigger ridge formed, I can look back at the records and see a tortoise that went through a slow/no growth period. That can be seasonal, sickness, parasite load, period of higher stress (change in enclosure) etc, etc. When I have rapid, consistent growth, I will see a smooth section of keratin laid down.

My thinking is that as the bone grows, the keratin fills in the gaps. The keratin growth that has been stimulated continues as it thickens the scute to it's "normal" thickness over a short time. That keratin production is concentrated at the expanding seam, but is also thickening the new keratin behind. When bone growth stops while that is in process, the keratin growth seems to continue as the thickening is still occurring. However, with no new seam expansion, the very edge of that seam, seems to then thicken. When bone growth later continues, there is a ridge left behind. You can even see the results of this process in the underlying bone as these thickened edges also leave corresponding grooves in the bone.

That first growth period of a hatchling does not have that ridge as it is the stopping of previous growth that seems to create ridges. Whenever I have a hatchling that undergoes a nice consistant growth period from the very start, I see the smooth scute you are showing in the picture above.

I believe that is why tortoise that live in areas with a "feast or famine" type of climate/environment and have to go through hibernation / aestivation in lean times, yet have times where food is plentiful, are the tortoises we see with the most defined annual ridges.


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## Anyfoot

@Markw84 

When a tortoises entire scute lifts off. How does it manage to grow back?


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## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> @Markw84
> 
> When a tortoises entire scute lifts off. How does it manage to grow back?


I don't know. I have only seen this a few times where I saw a progression of growth. Both times, a new layer of bone/epithelial layer/keratin grew back UNDER the exposed bone!! Eventually the old bone dries and breaks away. With just a very small area of injury the keratin grows at the edges and fills in. Interestingly, with aquatic turtles, a new layer of keratin grows back over the exposed bone. Not as pretty as the original scute, but it does form a new scute. But, keep in mind, aquatic turtles keratin grows differently in that it grows under the entire scute as opposed to tortoises where almost all keratin growth is only at growth seams.


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## Anyfoot

Do you think that it’s possible for the same species to have different thicknesses of keratin? 

If so could this be playing a role in smoothness variation between a group, even when clutch mates. 
So for example, We keep a group at 80% and all the torts with the thinnest keratin grow smooth and all the torts with thicker keratin grow bumpy because 80% doesn’t quite cut it for thicker keratin. But if we’d had them at 99% all torts may have grown smooth.


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## itty06

Can you cure a leopard tortoise who is 7 months old if it's showing signs of pyramiding?


----------



## Cowboy_Ken

itty06 said:


> Can you cure a leopard tortoise who is 7 months old if it's showing signs of pyramiding?



“Cure” is the operative word here. With proper knowledge from this point forward the current pyramiding should become further and further from being able to see.


----------



## wellington

itty06 said:


> Can you cure a leopard tortoise who is 7 months old if it's showing signs of pyramiding?


I believe I answered your thread about this. You can stop it from getting worse. Yes, a 7 month old can be helped. Raise it in a closed chamber until it's at least 2 years with the high humidity and you will stop it from getting worse. As it ages the pyramiding will start too appear less.


----------



## Salspi

Markw84 said:


> @Anyfoot Craig:
> 
> From my observations, it seems to me that ridges are created by STOPS in growth. When I have nice consistent growth, I then see the smoothest and less defined ridges forming. When I see a bigger ridge formed, I can look back at the records and see a tortoise that went through a slow/no growth period. That can be seasonal, sickness, parasite load, period of higher stress (change in enclosure) etc, etc. When I have rapid, consistent growth, I will see a smooth section of keratin laid down.
> 
> My thinking is that as the bone grows, the keratin fills in the gaps. The keratin growth that has been stimulated continues as it thickens the scute to it's "normal" thickness over a short time. That keratin production is concentrated at the expanding seam, but is also thickening the new keratin behind. When bone growth stops while that is in process, the keratin growth seems to continue as the thickening is still occurring. However, with no new seam expansion, the very edge of that seam, seems to then thicken. When bone growth later continues, there is a ridge left behind. You can even see the results of this process in the underlying bone as these thickened edges also leave corresponding grooves in the bone.
> 
> That first growth period of a hatchling does not have that ridge as it is the stopping of previous growth that seems to create ridges. Whenever I have a hatchling that undergoes a nice consistant growth period from the very start, I see the smooth scute you are showing in the picture above.
> 
> I believe that is why tortoise that live in areas with a "feast or famine" type of climate/environment and have to go through hibernation / aestivation in lean times, yet have times where food is plentiful, are the tortoises we see with the most defined annual ridges.



Excellent info Mark... Thank you very much!


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## T Smart

Very interesting! Great information here.


----------



## Anyfoot

@Markw84 

Hello Mark. 

The one thing that is puzzling me about this external hydration theory is, Why does soaking having such a good impact? 
When soaking we are not hydrating the carapace, So it’s more like an internal hydration method. I know some breeders that don’t care about humidity, they don’t even have a water dish in the enclosure, but they religiously soak daily and produce smooth tortoises.


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## Markw84

Hi, Craig. Been a while since we exchanged ideas! Hope things are going well. I follow your radiateds' progress with great interest.

My belief is that it is the hydroscopic properties of keratin that make soaking a beneficial step in reducing pyramiding. Although the tortoise is not fully immersed, I can't imagine anyone soaking their tortoise where they don't also wet the entire tortoise and clean it a few times during the soak. That would be enough to allow the keratin to absorb enough water molecules to swell a bit and stay more pliable. Drying out that moisture would take more than the simple drying you would see as the shell dries off and appears "dry". I believe it is a more involved process to bake the keratin to where it looses too much moisture and stiffens prematurely. That is where too intense IR could come into play and dry this too quickly. So if we have a daily bath where the keratin can rehydrate, and lighting and heat (and hides) where the tortoise is not "baked" that should make a huge difference. That also goes back to the value of misting the carapace regularly, Which also would make a difference.

With my sulcatas, I certainly noticed a substantial difference over the years when I would program the sprinklers to wet everything down in their enclosure a few times a day. Combined with ample plant cover to rest beneath, I saw this as the biggest improvement I saw in pyramiding in the years prior to my stumbling upon Tom's pyramiding experiment and humidity.


----------



## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> Hi, Craig. Been a while since we exchanged ideas! Hope things are going well. I follow your radiateds' progress with great interest.
> 
> My belief is that it is the hydroscopic properties of keratin that make soaking a beneficial step in reducing pyramiding. Although the tortoise is not fully immersed, I can't imagine anyone soaking their tortoise where they don't also wet the entire tortoise and clean it a few times during the soak. That would be enough to allow the keratin to absorb enough water molecules to swell a bit and stay more pliable. Drying out that moisture would take more than the simple drying you would see as the shell dries off and appears "dry". I believe it is a more involved process to bake the keratin to where it looses too much moisture and stiffens prematurely. That is where too intense IR could come into play and dry this too quickly. So if we have a daily bath where the keratin can rehydrate, and lighting and heat (and hides) where the tortoise is not "baked" that should make a huge difference. That also goes back to the value of misting the carapace regularly, Which also would make a difference.
> 
> With my sulcatas, I certainly noticed a substantial difference over the years when I would program the sprinklers to wet everything down in their enclosure a few times a day. Combined with ample plant cover to rest beneath, I saw this as the biggest improvement I saw in pyramiding in the years prior to my stumbling upon Tom's pyramiding experiment and humidity.



My next question you have just touched on. 

Spraying the carapace. 

If you kept a tort in a dry climate, no soaks and had a basking spot, but sprayed a few times a day, would it help smooth growth.
I don’t think it would. 
To get our finger nails to go supple in water they have to be submerged for some time. Putting your fingernails in water for 30 seconds does nothing. Soak them for 15mins and they become supple. (I’m assuming water temp plays a role too). 
So there must be a balance between hydration and basking. 

Thoughts.


----------



## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> My next question you have just touched on.
> 
> Spraying the carapace.
> 
> If you kept a tort in a dry climate, no soaks and had a basking spot, but sprayed a few times a day, would it help smooth growth.
> I don’t think it would.
> To get our finger nails to go supple in water they have to be submerged for some time. Putting your fingernails in water for 30 seconds does nothing. Soak them for 15mins and they become supple. (I’m assuming water temp plays a role too).
> So there must be a balance between hydration and basking.
> 
> Thoughts.


A few thoughts...

I think it would help. would it be enough?? Don't know but probably not! - depending upon the lighting/heating/hides provided.

We are talking about NEW keratin, not fully formed keratin. The hydroscopic properties of the keratin changes dramatically as it matures. Your fingernails are mature keratin. The new keratin is beneath the cuticles and protected! That is part of the issue I saw in my original quandaries. Most all keratin structure in nature develop protected, except tortoises. Hair follicles beneath the skin, fingernails by cuticle, feathers by a protective sheath, horns forming beneath the skin before emerging, etc, etc. All richly hydrated by surrounding tissue and blood supply as it forms and then hardens. But once a tortoise hatches, the new keratin forming as the shell grows is directly exposed to the environment. New keratin needs moisture and needs to stay hydrated long enough, in that new stage - allowing it to swell and develop its thickness before hardening and becoming more resistant. Young tortoises hide and stay buried in mud, puddles, wet dirt, roots of plants, etc. - not just to hide from predators, but to keep in an environment to allow this growth. They can't just go from egg to the harsh environment. There needs a transitional stage. That's what drives me crazy when people talk about emulating the climate from which they "naturally come". They themselves are expert at avoiding that climate!!

Absolutely a balance. My guess is that a young growing tortoise spends very little time actually basking. They thrive and grow in times of the year where ground temps and daily temps are high enough for maintaining proper metabolic body temps. I bet their UV exposure is indirect mostly. Cryptic basking in partial shade edges. Learning how to balance hydration and lighting/basking/proper artificial heat is key.


----------



## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> A few thoughts...
> 
> I think it would help. would it be enough?? Don't know but probably not! - depending upon the lighting/heating/hides provided.
> 
> We are talking about NEW keratin, not fully formed keratin. The hydroscopic properties of the keratin changes dramatically as it matures. Your fingernails are mature keratin. The new keratin is beneath the cuticles and protected! That is part of the issue I saw in my original quandaries. Most all keratin structure in nature develop protected, except tortoises. Hair follicles beneath the skin, fingernails by cuticle, feathers by a protective sheath, horns forming beneath the skin before emerging, etc, etc. All richly hydrated by surrounding tissue and blood supply as it forms and then hardens. But once a tortoise hatches, the new keratin forming as the shell grows is directly exposed to the environment. New keratin needs moisture and needs to stay hydrated long enough, in that new stage - allowing it to swell and develop its thickness before hardening and becoming more resistant. Young tortoises hide and stay buried in mud, puddles, wet dirt, roots of plants, etc. - not just to hide from predators, but to keep in an environment to allow this growth. They can't just go from egg to the harsh environment. There needs a transitional stage. That's what drives me crazy when people talk about emulating the climate from which they "naturally come". They themselves are expert at avoiding that climate!!
> 
> Absolutely a balance. My guess is that a young growing tortoise spends very little time actually basking. They thrive and grow in times of the year where ground temps and daily temps are high enough for maintaining proper metabolic body temps. I bet their UV exposure is indirect mostly. Cryptic basking in partial shade edges. Learning how to balance hydration and lighting/basking/proper artificial heat is key.


 Thanks Mark. 
I forgot I was comparing mature fingernail keratin to immature keratin of the carapace. Should have realised because if you push two scutes hard enough towards each other you can see the new white keratin flex at the scute borders. 
That puts that thought process to bed.

I agree with everything else you said, I raise my babies on that very principle, no basking and plenty of hydration.


----------



## Markw84

Anyfoot said:


> Thanks Mark.
> I forgot I was comparing mature fingernail keratin to immature keratin of the carapace. Should have realised because if you push two scutes hard enough towards each other you can see the new white keratin flex at the scute borders.
> That puts that thought process to bed.
> 
> I agree with everything else you said, I raise my babies on that very principle, no basking and plenty of hydration.


I do not believe "no basking" can be made as a blanket statement for all species. I know sulcatas and leopards in particular, seem to "need" basking to get them going. Not sure if it is just thermo-regulation related. It may well be a photo stimulus to them. I've seem them want to bask when I know their body temps are very high. So - balance - is the key not just 'no basking'. I've not seen this as much with my stars. They don't seem to need to bask like the suclatas and leopards, although they still will, just not as much and sometimes they don't at all.


----------



## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> I do not believe "no basking" can be made as a blanket statement for all species. I know sulcatas and leopards in particular, seem to "need" basking to get them going. Not sure if it is just thermo-regulation related. It may well be a photo stimulus to them. I've seem them want to bask when I know their body temps are very high. So - balance - is the key not just 'no basking'. I've not seen this as much with my stars. They don't seem to need to bask like the suclatas and leopards, although they still will, just not as much and sometimes they don't at all.


 Not saying your wrong and some species may bask as babies. But I’m not convinced yet. 

My redfoots always try and bask. Remember I accidentally created a basking spot through the window. I soaked them daily, sprayed them twice a day and the humidity is always above 80%, they have pyramiding. They used to pile up trying to get to the small basking area. I’ll never know how long per day they basked because I was at work, I’ll bet it was all day. 
I forget the exact readings(it’s on here somewhere). But they were something like 40c and 30% in that small basking area that the window created. Not good for babies. But yet they seeked that area out. 
I think it’s instinct for all species of torts to bask, but nature keeps them at bay as babies. The ones that bask risk death. They will learn that and be weary of going out in the open when a near death experience happens. Maybe they have to risk it for minimal time to get vitamin D. 
In captivity there is no fear, they learn and lay out in the open with nothing to worry about. Mine are all tame now. They come to me with no fear, imagine doing that with an animal in the wild. 

Totally of topic but related to everything we talk about. Have you ever read in depth about D2? What’s your knowledge on this vitamin.


----------



## Ellen & Toby

Just curious, if humidity and external hydration is key to smooth shell growth, how does this work for desert species? How have they adapted to find enough moisture to keep them from pyramiding?


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## TechnoCheese

Ellen & Toby said:


> Just curious, if humidity and external hydration is key to smooth shell growth, how does this work for desert species? How have they adapted to find enough moisture to keep them from pyramiding?



They stay in deep burrows where it’s more humid, with their poop and pee helping to keep the humidity.


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## Cowboy_Ken

TechnoCheese said:


> They stay in deep burrows where it’s more humid, with their poop and pee helping to keep the humidity.



Pictures or it didn’t happen. Sorry, I had to say it.


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## TechnoCheese

Cowboy_Ken said:


> Pictures or it didn’t happen. Sorry, I had to say it.



Not sure I could get pictures of the poop helping to keep humidity, but uh.. here’s a desert tortoise going into a burrow? Lol



They likely don’t go out to urinate/poop, so with how damp the waste is and how deep down the burrow are, I would certainly think they would have an effect on keeping humidity.


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## Anyfoot

@Markw84 @Tom. 

Do you think it’s size or time that gets them out of the vulnerable supple stage of pyramiding? 

I’m leaning towards size now. 

If it is size, then by growing a tort slower are we just hanging around in that soft supple, chance of pyramiding stage for longer? 

If yes.......
May aswell just grow them as fast as possible in humid, wet and hydrated state to get them to the hardened off stage quicker. 

Thoughts please


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## Tom

I move mine outside full time at about 8-10". Whenever I do this, with all of my species, growth slows tremendously and the growth lines get all rough and gnarly. Eventually, after about a year or so, they start growing again, and things seem to normalize a bit.

This is very odd because they spend a lot of each day outside when they are 5-8", and their outdoor heated night boxes offer similar conditions to what they sleep in in their indoor enclosures. There should not be such a drastic change in their growth, but there is. I think this is the stage where people in the warm humid South East have an advantage over those of us in the hot dry South West.


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## Anyfoot

Tom said:


> I move mine outside full time at about 8-10". Whenever I do this, with all of my species, growth slows tremendously and the growth lines get all rough and gnarly. Eventually, after about a year or so, they start growing again, and things seem to normalize a bit.
> 
> This is very odd because they spend a lot of each day outside when they are 5-8", and their outdoor heated night boxes offer similar conditions to what they sleep in in their indoor enclosures. There should not be such a drastic change in their growth, but there is. I think this is the stage where people in the warm humid South East have an advantage over those of us in the hot dry South West.


 At what point do you start backing off with daily soaks?


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## Anyfoot

Every adult I’ve took in has this gnarly look before growth commences.


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> At what point do you start backing off with daily soaks?


I soak daily until they reach 100 grams. At that point I start skipping a day now and then. By the time they are living outside I soak one to three times a week depending on the weather and how busy I am.


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## Maro2Bear

TechnoCheese said:


> Not sure I could get pictures of the poop helping to keep humidity, but uh.. here’s a desert tortoise going into a burrow? Lol
> View attachment 251761
> 
> 
> They likely don’t go out to urinate/poop, so with how damp the waste is and how deep down the burrow are, I would certainly think they would have an effect on keeping humidity.




Quick comment... I thought (and read recently) when it is really hot or during drought periods or brumation, there is very little bodily excretions happening, in fact for long periods of time, nothing. So, unlike well-kept fed and watered torts that probably go often, those out in the wilds don’t quite go that often enough to maintain humidity levels deep inside a burrow.

Just throwing that info into the discussion.


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## TechnoCheese

Maro2Bear said:


> Quick comment... I thought (and read recently) when it is really hot or during drought periods or brumation, there is very little bodily excretions happening, in fact for long periods of time, nothing. So, unlike well-kept fed and watered torts that probably go often, those out in the wilds don’t quite go that often enough to maintain humidity levels deep inside a burrow.
> 
> Just throwing that info into the discussion.



During brumation or times it’s too hot to eat enough to poop, I would imagine that they don’t grow much, and since pyramiding only happens during growth, they wouldn’t pyramid. Just my thoughts on it, anyway. And even without the poop, digging down as far as they do, the soil’s usually quite a bit moister.


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## Cowboy_Ken

TechnoCheese said:


> And even without the poop, digging down as far as they do, the soil’s usually quite a bit moister.



Again I say, pictures or it didn’t happen. I’m not spending time in a burrow as l should to make such a broad based brush.


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## TechnoCheese

Cowboy_Ken said:


> Again I say, pictures or it didn’t happen. I’m not spending time in a burrow as l should to make such a broad based brush.


Apparently not many other people are spending time at the bottom of a burrow, because not only can I not find pictures of poop at the bottom of a burrow, I can’t find pictures of the bottom of a deep burrow period. But we know that tortoises that live in dryer environments live in deep burrows without pictures of the depth, don’t we? The “pictures or it didn’t happen” saying doesn’t work for everything, as much as I wish it did.

With how much time tortoises spend in their burrow, even if just sitting with half their body out, would it make sense to walk out of the burrow every time they needed to poop? This mainly applies to younger tortoises and smaller species, seeing as it would be very risky to leave because of the predators that could get them. They would very likely just poop in the burrow. Heck, even My Sulcata poops in his hides, not that that’s much proof.

While a large adult might be grazing a large portion of their time, and would likely be pooping the most while moving around, they still probably wouldn’t get out just to poop if they were in the burrow.

Could you tell me a reason why this couldn’t be the case?


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## Tom

I've been to the bottom of several sulcata burrows. Let me assure you all: There is poop down there.

If you are not claustrophobic, going down sulcata burrows will _make_ you claustrophobic.

Found this old thread:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/rvs-burrow.20957/
You can see a few turds in the pics, but they are coated with dirt. There were a lot more down there, but they were all mixed in with the dirt and buried.


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## Anyfoot

I think all species find ways of keeping out of the scorching sun and to keep humid. Yes they bask but not all day. 
Eating,drinking, vitamin requirements and copulation requires activity, to be active they need to be warm. Most everything else does not require the intense heat of the sun. So they develop ways to keep cool when not active. Burrows, deep shade, tree fells, marshes etc. 

I’m not convinced the burrows and other methods are to keep on growing smooth. I think it’s to get out of the blazing temperatures. 
Maybe it’s how some species hydrate too. 
If a tortoise reaches a certain size and it’s gone past the vulnerable pyramiding stage then why would the burrows be for the purpose of smooth growth. I can’t imagine a 6 month old sully digging a burrow, but they are small enough to hide in wet microclimates until structure is strong enough to keep on growing smooth. 
My smooth redfoots from 2 yr old(6”SCL ish) don’t start pyramiding because I’ve stopped hydrating them. They carry on growing the same. 

Has anyone ever seen a well developed smooth tortoise start to pyramid later in life?


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## Anyfoot

@Tom. 

What is the smallest size sully you’ve seen digging a burrow?


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## Markw84

@Anyfoot Craig:

I believe that size does have the most effect on how resistant the shell becomes to pyramiding. The more the bones have thickened and developed nice, dense structure, the more resistant to pyramiding they become. For a sulcata, my observations have been that once it reaches about 10" or so, if grown with a good diet and has good bone density, then pyramiding does not occur in mine. Like @Tom I put mine out full time once they are about 8-10" in a very dry summertime climate. Even before I was aware of the humidity solution, I still noticed mine smoothed out and grew very nicely from that point on. There was nothing I could do back then, to stop the young ones from pyramiding, though.

Not so coincidentally, in the wild, Sulcatas do not begin digging their own burrows until they are about 10-12" - or normally in their third year. Up until that time, they are small enough to still easily bury themselves in moist sand under plant roots and other moist areas they seek out. So it would seem keeping buried, keeps them growing smooth, not using a burrow. Young sulcatas, when actually found, tend to congregate in groups and dig into favored, moist sandy areas and keep covered.


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## Anyfoot

Markw84 said:


> @Anyfoot Craig:
> 
> I believe that size does have the most effect on how resistant the shell becomes to pyramiding. The more the bones have thickened and developed nice, dense structure, the more resistant to pyramiding they become. For a sulcata, my observations have been that once it reaches about 10" or so, if grown with a good diet and has good bone density, then pyramiding does not occur in mine. Like @Tom I put mine out full time once they are about 8-10" in a very dry summertime climate. Even before I was aware of the humidity solution, I still noticed mine smoothed out and grew very nicely from that point on. There was nothing I could do back then, to stop the young ones from pyramiding, though.
> 
> Not so coincidentally, in the wild, Sulcatas do not begin digging their own burrows until they are about 10-12" - or normally in their third year. Up until that time, they are small enough to still easily bury themselves in moist sand under plant roots and other moist areas they seek out. So it would seem keeping buried, keeps them growing smooth, not using a burrow. Young sulcatas, when actually found, tend to congregate in groups and dig into favored, moist sandy areas and keep covered.


 That makes sense. 

I’m assuming you have experiments going on with soaking, humidity and buried hatchings. 
I’m starting to think that humidity alone can still allow pyramiding. Carapace hydration for smooth growth is either soaking or actual wet/moist soil, foliage or other moist debris touching the carapace.
Just thoughts. Not facts.


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## Tom

Markw84 said:


> Young sulcatas, when actually found, tend to congregate in groups and dig into favored, moist sandy areas and keep covered.



I've never seen anything written on wild baby or juvenile sulcatas. Where are you getting this info? I wanna read it too!!!


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> @Tom.
> 
> What is the smallest size sully you’ve seen digging a burrow?


 I once saw a 4 incher going to town, and also a 6 incher one time, but those are both one time only very unusual cases. Normally, the actual burrowing doesn't start until they are about 10-12" like Mark noted.


I don't think the burrow is intentionally used as a pyramiding preventative by wild sulcatas. I think pyramiding prevention is a side effect of burrow usage, and burrow usage is simply a way to avoid above ground temperature extremes as you noted.


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## Markw84

Tom said:


> I've never seen anything written on wild baby or juvenile sulcatas. Where are you getting this info? I wanna read it too!!!


back in the mid 80's and early 90's I made friends with a guy from Africa who did import some various things. He agreed to try to get some tortoises for me. His contacts did end up getting me a few Leopards but the process took a long time. I asked him to get me any info he could about where they came from, the habitat, etc. We tried to get some sulcatas the early 90's when I first started seeing some. Because of shipping, I was wanting smaller, yet well started juveniles and wanted smooth, wild caught back then. All the sources he spoke with told him small was very hard to find. Most were larger that were pulled from burrows, and never got small ones that way. A few mentioned rarely finding yearlings and when they did, it was several at a time all in the same location, and they learned to dig around when the found one as others would be nearby. Never did get any from these sources, but did end up with a nice adult pair from Niger.

All this was anecdotal, and not verified. Very interesting to me. But when I first read THE CRYING TORTOISE, I was struck with some of his comments about juveniles:

*From Chapter 6-1 -*
_"The young tortoises benefit from the first rains, and especially from the fast growing plants on which they feed and take water in abundance. Also, the young can bury themselves more easily, thus avoiding certain predators..."_

*Later in same chapter - *

_"Conditions in the wild vary from year to year, and animals can suffer from unexpected droughts, serious fires, a reduced vegetal carpet, etc. A new-born tortoise weighing 50 g will reach 200 g after four months. and I kg by the end of the year. When two years old it might weigh 3 kg. and 6 kg after three years. It is at this age that the young tortoise will dig an individual burrow. thus escaping from most predators."
_
*From Chapter 6-4 -*
_"The juveniles hide, often in small groups, under leaves or in natural hollows. They only excavate in autumn, often together, forming recesses that are enlarged holes, rather than real burrows. "
_
That's a few of the quotes I could quickly find that go towards this conversation.


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## DeanS

Tom said:


> I once saw a 4 incher going to town, and also a 6 incher one time, but those are both one time only very unusual cases. Normally, the actual burrowing doesn't start until they are about 10-12" like Mark noted.
> 
> 
> I don't think the burrow is intentionally used as a pyramiding preventative by wild sulcatas. I think pyramiding prevention is a side effect of burrow usage, and burrow usage is simply a way to avoid above ground temperature extremes as you noted.



I think this little guy takes the cake! Somewhere between 4 and 5 inches...and eight months old!


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## Gijoux

wellington said:


> Great info.
> My challenge, that hopefully you can explain, is this. One, do you think this pertains to every species, as some seem to always pyramid. Two, how is it some tortoises, being raised in very high humidity, can still pyramid, while its tank mate does not?
> The reason I question this, I have raised one leopard from being laid, incubation, to now. High humidity the whole time and still some pyramiding.
> I now have four babies hatched October, again high humidity and slight pyramiding showing.
> Their substrate is never dry, the humidity never below 80 at tort height, usually higher.
> Because I do have to feed during winter months more grocery greens and mazuri then warmer months, I did figure it was probably a faster growth, as mazuri does seem to add growth fairly quick. However, I have not fed the four hatchlings any mazuri yet.



I believe "stress" is handled differently by different species as well as individuals. Stress hormones affect "Mineralocorticoid" production by the Adrenal glands, which has an overall effect on fluid retention (Kidney) and bone/keratin production since the Kidney plays a major role in Vitamin D2 to D3 conversion and ultimately bone growth. D3 is the active form used by the body. The Adrenal hormones plays a major role in Thyroid production and activation of T4 into T3, which also plays a role in Bone and Keratin production as well as growth and activity. In humans we can tell a lot about overall health, especially Adrenal/Thyroid issues, by looking at fingernail growth. I have observed horses, whose hooves (bones covered by Keratin/Lamina) are failing and falling apart (Laminitis), when given thyroid hormone, have major improvement. I believe exercise to improve blood flow/circulation is also an important feature to all aspects of health. Perhaps a species or individual that is more fearful or shy will be more likely to be affected negatively through adrenal imbalance which affects fluid and mineral content in the body. 




Maro2Bear said:


> Quick comment... I thought (and read recently) when it is really hot or during drought periods or brumation, there is very little bodily excretions happening, in fact for long periods of time, nothing. So, unlike well-kept fed and watered torts that probably go often, those out in the wilds don’t quite go that often enough to maintain humidity levels deep inside a burrow.
> 
> Just throwing that info into the discussion.


Deep inside a burrow will be cooler in the Summer and warmer in Winter. By not excreting fluid and waste they are keeping the moisture within their bodies.


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## Anyfoot

Gijoux said:


> I believe "stress" is handled differently by different species as well as individuals. Stress hormones affect "Mineralocorticoid" production by the Adrenal glands, which has an overall effect on fluid retention (Kidney) and bone/keratin production since the Kidney plays a major role in Vitamin D2 to D3 conversion and ultimately bone growth. D3 is the active form used by the body. The Adrenal hormones plays a major role in Thyroid production and activation of T4 into T3, which also plays a role in Bone and Keratin production as well as growth and activity. In humans we can tell a lot about overall health, especially Adrenal/Thyroid issues, by looking at fingernail growth. I have observed horses, whose hooves (bones covered by Keratin/Lamina) are failing and falling apart (Laminitis), when given thyroid hormone, have major improvement. I believe exercise to improve blood flow/circulation is also an important feature to all aspects of health. Perhaps a species or individual that is more fearful or shy will be more likely to be affected negatively through adrenal imbalance which affects fluid and mineral content in the body.



Nice post. 

Not sure I’m understanding this last sentence correctly. 
What you are saying is an active tortoise has the adrenaline running and therefore a balance of fluid and mineral circulation with the higher blood flow. Wouldn’t a tortoise that is more fearful through anxiety of predators be showing high adrenaline too?


----------



## Gijoux

Anyfoot said:


> Nice post.
> 
> Not sure I’m understanding this last sentence correctly.
> What you are saying is an active tortoise has the adrenaline running and therefore a balance of fluid and mineral circulation with the higher blood flow. Wouldn’t a tortoise that is more fearful through anxiety of predators be showing high adrenaline too?



Absolutely! But having the ability to move around freely, finding safe cover as well as the ability to graze, would actually lower Cortisol (associated with Adrenaline). Being trapped in a small area without the ability to hide (predators or not), will cause stress and all the physiologic changes. Exercise increases blood circulation which delivers oxygen, fluids and nutrients to the organs, as well as lowering Cortisol, the "Fight or Flight" hormone.


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## Ketta

True! rhinos and pigs oh and buffalos take mud baths to keep their skin hydratated..


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## Ketta

True! rhinos and pigs oh and buffalos take mud baths to keep their skin hydratated..


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## Ketta

True! rhinos and pigs oh and buffalos take mud baths to keep their skin hydratated.. I read that hatchlings stay hidden for 2-3 weeks until their sac yolk is fully consumed.


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## Anyfoot

Ketta said:


> True! rhinos and pigs oh and buffalos take mud baths to keep their skin hydratated.. I read that hatchlings stay hidden for 2-3 weeks until their sac yolk is fully consumed.


 You can pretty much do what you want with a redfoot and they grow smooth for first 4 to 6 months. Then things change. 
I’ve had only 2 that it was obvious they were going to pyramid within a month or two of hatching. All others have been smooth up until around 5 months old. I’ve tried every diet and soaking method on the planet.


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## Ketta

Keto have 2-3 years olď! So he is a juvenile male.


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## Anyfoot

@Markw84

Hi Mark. We’ve not spoke for a while. My life is demanding at the moment.

A while back we were talking about how torts can still pyramid later in life. I’m not convinced. I think there is a point where as long as the bone is strong and healthy the keratin can not dictate the bone growth direction.
Have a look at this tort. I’ve purposely not cleaned her so you can see how dry they get. Even though I spray my tort house down with a hose pipe a few times a wk, and have a 3sqft pond that evaporates and a water fall. They drink at will. I don’t soak them anymore apart from when I wash them.
This one is about 6yrs old now. She’s about 7” SCL. Her siblings are 10”+ now. For some reason she just didn’t grow much at all for a couple yrs. Over the last yr she seems to be growing quickly all of a sudden. Gaining approx 1”SCL in the last yr. look at her newest growth rings(last 3 rings) You can see how perfect the new growth is. It’s growing in a perfectly horizontal plane, no pyramiding wafts so ever. But yet I have 6 months olds that start to pyramid. Living in the exact same tort house but in a tortoise table, and being soaked daily and sprayed.
Once the bone is set and strong enough something drastic has to happen to tip the bone to a different angle.

You can see the latest white growth line. Something I didn’t see on this tort for a couple years. Don’t know why and tbh I’d accepted she has stunted growth, the extra scute made me suspicious of something abnormal too.

So in a nutshell. She’s having a very fast growth spurt in dryish conditions but growing smooth.

Your thoughts as usual. Or anyone’s.


----------



## Toddrickfl1

Anyfoot said:


> @Markw84
> 
> Hi Mark. We’ve not spoke for a while. My life is demanding at the moment.
> 
> A while back we were talking about how torts can still pyramid later in life. I’m not convinced. I think there is a point where as long as the bone is strong and healthy the keratin can not dictate the bone growth direction.
> Have a look at this tort. I’ve purposely not cleaned her so you can see how dry they get. Even though I spray my tort house down with a hose pipe a few times a wk, and have a 3sqft pond that evaporates and a water fall. They drink at will. I don’t soak them anymore apart from when I wash them.
> This one is about 6yrs old now. She’s about 7” SCL. Her siblings are 10”+ now. For some reason she just didn’t grow much at all for a couple yrs. Over the last yr she seems to be growing quickly all of a sudden. Gaining approx 1”SCL in the last yr. look at her newest growth rings(last 3 rings) You can see how perfect the new growth is. It’s growing in a perfectly horizontal plane, no pyramiding wafts so ever. But yet I have 6 months olds that start to pyramid. Living in the exact same tort house but in a tortoise table, and being soaked daily and sprayed.
> Once the bone is set and strong enough something drastic has to happen to tip the bone to a different angle.
> 
> You can see the latest white growth line. Something I didn’t see on this tort for a couple years. Don’t know why and tbh I’d accepted she has stunted growth, the extra scute made me suspicious of something abnormal too.
> 
> So in a nutshell. She’s having a very fast growth spurt in dryish conditions but growing smooth.
> 
> Your thoughts as usual. Or anyone’s.
> 
> View attachment 272252
> View attachment 272253
> View attachment 272254
> View attachment 272255
> View attachment 272256
> View attachment 272257


@Anyfoot I'm right at the five month mark (140g) with my hatchling and growth seems good, what you think?


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## Anyfoot

Toddrickfl1 said:


> @Anyfoot I'm right at the five month mark (140g) with my hatchling and growth seems good, what you think?
> View attachment 272264
> View attachment 272265
> View attachment 272266


 That one is going to be perfect


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## jsheffield

Toddrickfl1 said:


> I'm right at the five month mark (140g) with my hatchling and growth seems good, what you think?
> View attachment 272264



That one looks gorgeous!

Jamie


----------



## Fester

Markw84 said:


> I remember as a young boy one of the things that fueled my interest with chelonians was seeing how much was just NOT KNOWN about them. When I became fascinated with an animal, I ran to the encyclopedia to find out about it. I also always went to the library and checked out every book I could find on the subject. What is the best diet? Temperature? How about incubating eggs when I got them? Nowhere could I find anything about what temperature was best. So I had to figure things out myself. Today we are so lucky with information at our fingertips. The internet – this forum! Yet still today, when it comes to chelonians, so much still seems to no be KNOWN. Most everything is, at best, debated. Some proposing one way, while another ‘expert’ says that won’t work. But we do have a chance now to see literally thousands of examples of results. But even results can be misleading if we don’t take into consideration the unique conditions that keeper in that part of the world provided. So little seems to be KNOWN!
> 
> Pyramiding is one of the best examples. In todays world of modern technology and scientific knowledge, there is still no proposed theory anywhere on how, metabolically, pyramiding even happens. It was just the last decade that it even became more apparent how to even prevent it. But that is still hotly debated. Most import of wild caught tortoises has been stopped for some time now. Pyramided tortoise has become the norm. Most pictures and artwork depicting tortoise show pyramided tortoise as “normal”!
> 
> We have enough evidence now to see that humidity is the key to preventing it. I can now grow smooth tortoises at will, after over 40 years of never being able to. I tried side by side groups of low protein vs higher protein groups. Groups of Fast growth vs slow growth. 3 groups of Store bough greens vs commercial pellets, vs natural grazing only. Stable temperatures vs night drops. Everything all the ‘experts’ said, I tried. Then I heard about humidity. I found this forum and read Tom’s thread on ending pyramiding. It all made sense immediately. I think it was the frustration of failing so many times and having to try so many proposed solutions that allowed me to find all the things that did not affect pyramiding. So many who have not had to struggle with it because of their location do not have that perspective. They will say it is diet, exercise, slower growth, etc, etc. All necessary for the most healthy of tortoises, but I found had nothing to do with pyramiding.
> 
> So, once I found out how to keep tortoises from pyramiding, the question still remained – why? Why did humidity work? Why didn’t diet or fast growth or exercise matter? I needed to know why! And no one, nowhere, knew why. There were enough pieces to the puzzle that were known. I had watched tortoise grow for decades. I monitored how pyramiding started and progressed. I could see what was happening. But to put the remaining pieces together took me into research in the anatomy and physiology of tortoise, keratin growth, bone growth, and even orthodontics.
> 
> A tortoise is a very uniquely modified animal. It is a vertebrate, yet carries its main skeletal structure on the outside. To protect this outside, exposed bone, another protective layer of keratin has developed over the bone. This is a unique adaptation as two hard surfaces normally do not come immediately in contact with each other in vertebrates. Bones are surrounded by cartilage and muscle - and even in more exposed areas, layers of hair and skin that cushion and provide ample blood flow. Keratin is also an interesting substance. Forming hair, nails, feathers, horns, it normally grows where the new keratin being formed is protected by living tissue from drying too quickly. Cuticles, hair follicles, feather sheaths, scalp around the base of horns, etc, etc. The tortoise, however, grows keratin that is exposed immediately to the external environment as it starts to spread and grow. No protective covering on the outside growth areas.
> 
> If you watch a tortoise grow and pyramid, you soon see that pyramiding is driven by the scutes, not by bone. For maximum strength, the scutes of a tortoise never align with the seams of an underlying bone. They all overlap - creating a very strong structure. Yet when a tortoise pyramids, the pyramiding ALWAYS follows the pattern of the scute. Where individual bones lay has no effect on the pattern of pyramiding. The scute remains a uniform thickness. It does not thicken in the center. The bone also retains a fairly uniform thickness, but deforms to match to shape of the pyramiding. Bone would not grow that way unless something was forcing it to deform. I also saw that pyramiding was the forming of valleys at the seams of scutes, not the raising of the centers. A perfectly smooth tortoise will have the higher, more domed look that matches the peaks of a pyramided tortoise, not the valleys.
> 
> From studies on keratin, we see that keratin is quite hydroscopic when new and forming. It is more pliable and absorbs water easily. As it matures, and “dries” it becomes much harder and stiffer and loses most of its hydroscopic properties and no longer absorbs water and swells. It becomes a much stiffer and stronger, protective substance. Tortoises add very little thickness to a scute as it grows. New keratin is formed at the seams of the spreading scutes as a tortoise grows. As the underlying bone grows, the seam spreads between the scutes. Keratin spreads outward to fill this seam and slowly adds thickness, swelling to match the “finished” thickness of the scute. Often, this new keratin will swell thicker than the older scute section and create a ridge in a faster growing “smooth” tortoise. This will dry and age over the next several months and smooth out to a more flush level, but leave a distinct ‘growth ring’. The thickness of the scute of a 30” sulcata is pretty much the same as a 15” sulcata. New keratin is not added to the underside of the central parts of scutes as a tortoise grows.
> 
> They have no protective layer over the new keratin growth, so the outside of the newly forming keratin is exposed to the environment. If while this new keratin is growing and spreading, it is exposed to conditions that allow it to dry too quickly, it will lose its ability to continue to swell and fill in thickness. The underside of the keratin, in direct contact to living tissue (the epithelial layer) still is pliable and swelling. This imbalance forces the new growth to swell downward as it cannot continue to fill in upward. This puts a small but constant pressure on that epithelial layer and puts it in compression as it is being pressed into the bone below. This is the beginning of pyramiding.
> 
> How does this slight pressure deform bone? As mentioned earlier, the tortoise shell is very uncommon in vertebrates in having bone next to a hard surface. There is a very thin layer of tissue that separated the bone from the scutes called the epithelial layer. This delivers blood supply and nutrients to the bone and new keratin growth and creates a barrier between the bone and the hard scute. Epithelial tissues are everywhere in a vertebrate. It covers the outside of your body (skin), lines organs, vessels, and cavities. But it also is defined by not covering a hard surface and in direct contact with bone. However, there is one place I found something most similar to this positioning of hard surfaces. Teeth and the jaw bone. There is a layer formed between the teeth and the jawbone that separates and somewhat cushions the jawbone from the teeth. It is called the periodontal ligament. It still retains pockets of epithelial cells throughout that effects some of its functions. AND, it was In studying examples of how bone can be deformed or reshaped, I again was lead to teeth.
> 
> When a slight but consistent pressure is applied to a tooth, it puts the periodontal ligament into compression on one side of the tooth in the direction of the pressure. That triggers the formation of an important type of cell in our bodies called osteoclasts. Osteoclasts are specialized cells that break down and dissolve bone. Bones are constantly restructuring and rebuilding. Another type cell, the osteoblast – builds new bone. This adds density to our bones and grows our bones when we are younger. Under stress, (exercise) it is triggered to build density and more strength. Osteoclasts, on the other hand, are called into play to remove older bone, and also to tap into the stores of calcium and phosphorus in our bones in times where our levels of calcium or phosphorus in our blood drops too low. Our bones are more than an inert structural item. They are living, constantly remodeling stores of tissue and minerals.
> 
> So how do they move teeth? Apply a slight but constant pressure on a tooth. That puts the periodontal ligament in compression on one side of the tooth. That triggers the formation of a bunch of extra osteoclasts that form at that site of the pressure and start dissolving bone to relieve that pressure. On the other side of the tooth, the periodontal ligament is then in tension. This triggers osteoblasts that are called into action and an abundance of osteoblasts go to work forming new bone to fill in the area that is putting the periodontal ligament in tension. So - the bone is not deformed. It is broken down and removed on one side and new bone is built on the other side.
> 
> In our tortoises, when the new keratin dries to quickly, it is putting that epithelial layer into compression as the new keratin growth can only swell and fill in downward. The epithelial layer call osteoclasts into action at the site to dissolve and remove bone and relieve the compression on that epithelial layer. This creates a groove in the bone directly under the new growth. Even in smooth, “normal growth” tortoises, you can often see grooves in the bone formed by the growth rings. However, if the dry conditions persist and the tortoise continues to grow in conditions that are too dry, the newly forming seam will also press down on the epithelial layer over the bone and deepen the groove forming into a valley. If this continues, the actual plane of the bone is changed to the pyramided shape. Bone does not grow from the seams, but instead grows from wide areas throughout the bone. So the tipped areas themselves (particularly along the vertebrals with more bones than scutes) will be growing bone in a direction that will simply add to the pyramiding. That will make it much harder to alter the pyramiding in a tortoise once it has progressed substantially. Yet a young tortoise, with just the start of pyramiding, can develop quite smooth future growth easily at an earlier stage that hasn’t progressed too far.
> 
> So - for me this answered all the questions. All the pieces fit and all the scenarios I actually see, anywhere, all fit. There are two things needed to pyramid a tortoise. Active growth and dry conditions. It is only by putting the epithelial layer into compression that osteoclasts will be formed to dissolve bone under the area in compression.
> 
> Diet will not matter. Pressure triggers osteoclast genesis. With poor diet you can have a tortoise with pyramiding PLUS metabolic bone disease. If anything, the pyramiding is releasing a bit more calcium into the bloodstream to help bone growth elsewhere! If diet is so poor that growth is stopped, of course there would be no pyramiding because there is no growth of new keratin.
> 
> Excess protein will not trigger osteoclast genesis. And certainly not only in specific areas under scute seams. Excess protein will create excess purines and possible stone formation problems. Smooth or pyramided!
> 
> Exercise does trigger osteoblasts genesis and better bone growth and density. It does not trigger osteoclast genesis and again would have no effect on localizing that under scute seams.
> 
> Fast growth does not affect pyramiding. You can have fast growing smooth tortoises and fast growing pyramided tortoises. Just as you can have slow growing smooth tortoises or slow growing pyramided tortoises. If they grow, fast or slow, when conditions are too dry – they will pyramid.
> 
> UVB exposure will not change pyramiding. It will certainly affect calcium uptake and utilization as D3 is necessary for that. So it will affect bone growth, but will not trigger bone dissolving in such a specific, localized area as only under the scute seams. In extreme cases, it will lead to metabolic bone disease as osteoclasts are triggered throughout the greater storage rich bone areas as it looks to release calcium back in to the blood stream. But that is also more concentrated in the hip and pelvic bones and plastral bones. Not at all calling osteoclasts into play under scute seams. Totally separate metabolic events.
> 
> Tortoises have ended up in the wild in “left over” habitats. They have been outcompeted and predated upon in any of the more favorable habitats. Their survival is because the have found way to survive in habitats that are much more hostile. Water is the key ingredient to survival. They are masters at maintaining it and finding microclimates that are less harsh. Nature gives them food and growth along with the moisture. In drier times, the food disappears, and the tortoise aestivates or brumates and does not grow. Their first few years, most tortoises spend their lives buried in the ground, or in leaf litter, always protecting themselves not only from predation, but from desiccation.
> 
> In so many areas their ‘natural range’ has been altered by man. With the advent of irrigation and reservoirs, the expansion of agriculture into their native ranges has even changed the food availability to drier times of the year and we see pyramided “wild” tortoises. Or so many now kept in compounds and fed through drier times and kept from digging and burrowing naturally – it is hard to tell what a “natural” tortoise looks like. We would have to look back 1000 years or so in many areas to really see a true wild tortoise in totally unchanged habitat. Certainly, in captivity, we have changed the way they live and the way they look.
> 
> Perhaps we are now learning enough to finally learn the conditions in which these amazing animals will do best. I am seeing more and more examples of tortoises that I believe look the way they were designed to grow. Maybe that will soon become the norm. Hopefully in the not too distant future we will see smooth tortoises again represented in the pictures and artwork depicting their species.


Absolutely amazing  Thank you for such a thorough and wonderful explanation that everyone should read/heed!!!


----------



## Fester

Markw84 said:


> A few thoughts...
> 
> I think it would help. would it be enough?? Don't know but probably not! - depending upon the lighting/heating/hides provided.
> 
> We are talking about NEW keratin, not fully formed keratin. The hydroscopic properties of the keratin changes dramatically as it matures. Your fingernails are mature keratin. The new keratin is beneath the cuticles and protected! That is part of the issue I saw in my original quandaries. Most all keratin structure in nature develop protected, except tortoises. Hair follicles beneath the skin, fingernails by cuticle, feathers by a protective sheath, horns forming beneath the skin before emerging, etc, etc. All richly hydrated by surrounding tissue and blood supply as it forms and then hardens. But once a tortoise hatches, the new keratin forming as the shell grows is directly exposed to the environment. New keratin needs moisture and needs to stay hydrated long enough, in that new stage - allowing it to swell and develop its thickness before hardening and becoming more resistant. Young tortoises hide and stay buried in mud, puddles, wet dirt, roots of plants, etc. - not just to hide from predators, but to keep in an environment to allow this growth. They can't just go from egg to the harsh environment. There needs a transitional stage. That's what drives me crazy when people talk about emulating the climate from which they "naturally come". They themselves are expert at avoiding that climate!!
> 
> Absolutely a balance. My guess is that a young growing tortoise spends very little time actually basking. They thrive and grow in times of the year where ground temps and daily temps are high enough for maintaining proper metabolic body temps. I bet their UV exposure is indirect mostly. Cryptic basking in partial shade edges. Learning how to balance hydration and lighting/basking/proper artificial heat is key.


This, too, adds to your original explantation; well said. This should be written for media such as ReptileMagazine for more exposure.


----------



## eminart

Markw84 said:


> I remember as a young boy one of the things that fueled my interest with chelonians was seeing how much was just NOT KNOWN about them. When I became fascinated with an animal, I ran to the encyclopedia to find out about it. I also always went to the library and checked out every book I could find on the subject. What is the best diet? Temperature? How about incubating eggs when I got them? Nowhere could I find anything about what temperature was best. So I had to figure things out myself. Today we are so lucky with information at our fingertips. The internet – this forum! Yet still today, when it comes to chelonians, so much still seems to no be KNOWN. Most everything is, at best, debated. Some proposing one way, while another ‘expert’ says that won’t work. But we do have a chance now to see literally thousands of examples of results. But even results can be misleading if we don’t take into consideration the unique conditions that keeper in that part of the world provided. So little seems to be KNOWN!
> 
> Pyramiding is one of the best examples. In todays world of modern technology and scientific knowledge, there is still no proposed theory anywhere on how, metabolically, pyramiding even happens. It was just the last decade that it even became more apparent how to even prevent it. But that is still hotly debated. Most import of wild caught tortoises has been stopped for some time now. Pyramided tortoise has become the norm. Most pictures and artwork depicting tortoise show pyramided tortoise as “normal”!
> 
> We have enough evidence now to see that humidity is the key to preventing it. I can now grow smooth tortoises at will, after over 40 years of never being able to. I tried side by side groups of low protein vs higher protein groups. Groups of Fast growth vs slow growth. 3 groups of Store bough greens vs commercial pellets, vs natural grazing only. Stable temperatures vs night drops. Everything all the ‘experts’ said, I tried. Then I heard about humidity. I found this forum and read Tom’s thread on ending pyramiding. It all made sense immediately. I think it was the frustration of failing so many times and having to try so many proposed solutions that allowed me to find all the things that did not affect pyramiding. So many who have not had to struggle with it because of their location do not have that perspective. They will say it is diet, exercise, slower growth, etc, etc. All necessary for the most healthy of tortoises, but I found had nothing to do with pyramiding.
> 
> So, once I found out how to keep tortoises from pyramiding, the question still remained – why? Why did humidity work? Why didn’t diet or fast growth or exercise matter? I needed to know why! And no one, nowhere, knew why. There were enough pieces to the puzzle that were known. I had watched tortoise grow for decades. I monitored how pyramiding started and progressed. I could see what was happening. But to put the remaining pieces together took me into research in the anatomy and physiology of tortoise, keratin growth, bone growth, and even orthodontics.
> 
> A tortoise is a very uniquely modified animal. It is a vertebrate, yet carries its main skeletal structure on the outside. To protect this outside, exposed bone, another protective layer of keratin has developed over the bone. This is a unique adaptation as two hard surfaces normally do not come immediately in contact with each other in vertebrates. Bones are surrounded by cartilage and muscle - and even in more exposed areas, layers of hair and skin that cushion and provide ample blood flow. Keratin is also an interesting substance. Forming hair, nails, feathers, horns, it normally grows where the new keratin being formed is protected by living tissue from drying too quickly. Cuticles, hair follicles, feather sheaths, scalp around the base of horns, etc, etc. The tortoise, however, grows keratin that is exposed immediately to the external environment as it starts to spread and grow. No protective covering on the outside growth areas.
> 
> If you watch a tortoise grow and pyramid, you soon see that pyramiding is driven by the scutes, not by bone. For maximum strength, the scutes of a tortoise never align with the seams of an underlying bone. They all overlap - creating a very strong structure. Yet when a tortoise pyramids, the pyramiding ALWAYS follows the pattern of the scute. Where individual bones lay has no effect on the pattern of pyramiding. The scute remains a uniform thickness. It does not thicken in the center. The bone also retains a fairly uniform thickness, but deforms to match to shape of the pyramiding. Bone would not grow that way unless something was forcing it to deform. I also saw that pyramiding was the forming of valleys at the seams of scutes, not the raising of the centers. A perfectly smooth tortoise will have the higher, more domed look that matches the peaks of a pyramided tortoise, not the valleys.
> 
> From studies on keratin, we see that keratin is quite hydroscopic when new and forming. It is more pliable and absorbs water easily. As it matures, and “dries” it becomes much harder and stiffer and loses most of its hydroscopic properties and no longer absorbs water and swells. It becomes a much stiffer and stronger, protective substance. Tortoises add very little thickness to a scute as it grows. New keratin is formed at the seams of the spreading scutes as a tortoise grows. As the underlying bone grows, the seam spreads between the scutes. Keratin spreads outward to fill this seam and slowly adds thickness, swelling to match the “finished” thickness of the scute. Often, this new keratin will swell thicker than the older scute section and create a ridge in a faster growing “smooth” tortoise. This will dry and age over the next several months and smooth out to a more flush level, but leave a distinct ‘growth ring’. The thickness of the scute of a 30” sulcata is pretty much the same as a 15” sulcata. New keratin is not added to the underside of the central parts of scutes as a tortoise grows.
> 
> They have no protective layer over the new keratin growth, so the outside of the newly forming keratin is exposed to the environment. If while this new keratin is growing and spreading, it is exposed to conditions that allow it to dry too quickly, it will lose its ability to continue to swell and fill in thickness. The underside of the keratin, in direct contact to living tissue (the epithelial layer) still is pliable and swelling. This imbalance forces the new growth to swell downward as it cannot continue to fill in upward. This puts a small but constant pressure on that epithelial layer and puts it in compression as it is being pressed into the bone below. This is the beginning of pyramiding.
> 
> How does this slight pressure deform bone? As mentioned earlier, the tortoise shell is very uncommon in vertebrates in having bone next to a hard surface. There is a very thin layer of tissue that separated the bone from the scutes called the epithelial layer. This delivers blood supply and nutrients to the bone and new keratin growth and creates a barrier between the bone and the hard scute. Epithelial tissues are everywhere in a vertebrate. It covers the outside of your body (skin), lines organs, vessels, and cavities. But it also is defined by not covering a hard surface and in direct contact with bone. However, there is one place I found something most similar to this positioning of hard surfaces. Teeth and the jaw bone. There is a layer formed between the teeth and the jawbone that separates and somewhat cushions the jawbone from the teeth. It is called the periodontal ligament. It still retains pockets of epithelial cells throughout that effects some of its functions. AND, it was In studying examples of how bone can be deformed or reshaped, I again was lead to teeth.
> 
> When a slight but consistent pressure is applied to a tooth, it puts the periodontal ligament into compression on one side of the tooth in the direction of the pressure. That triggers the formation of an important type of cell in our bodies called osteoclasts. Osteoclasts are specialized cells that break down and dissolve bone. Bones are constantly restructuring and rebuilding. Another type cell, the osteoblast – builds new bone. This adds density to our bones and grows our bones when we are younger. Under stress, (exercise) it is triggered to build density and more strength. Osteoclasts, on the other hand, are called into play to remove older bone, and also to tap into the stores of calcium and phosphorus in our bones in times where our levels of calcium or phosphorus in our blood drops too low. Our bones are more than an inert structural item. They are living, constantly remodeling stores of tissue and minerals.
> 
> So how do they move teeth? Apply a slight but constant pressure on a tooth. That puts the periodontal ligament in compression on one side of the tooth. That triggers the formation of a bunch of extra osteoclasts that form at that site of the pressure and start dissolving bone to relieve that pressure. On the other side of the tooth, the periodontal ligament is then in tension. This triggers osteoblasts that are called into action and an abundance of osteoblasts go to work forming new bone to fill in the area that is putting the periodontal ligament in tension. So - the bone is not deformed. It is broken down and removed on one side and new bone is built on the other side.
> 
> In our tortoises, when the new keratin dries to quickly, it is putting that epithelial layer into compression as the new keratin growth can only swell and fill in downward. The epithelial layer call osteoclasts into action at the site to dissolve and remove bone and relieve the compression on that epithelial layer. This creates a groove in the bone directly under the new growth. Even in smooth, “normal growth” tortoises, you can often see grooves in the bone formed by the growth rings. However, if the dry conditions persist and the tortoise continues to grow in conditions that are too dry, the newly forming seam will also press down on the epithelial layer over the bone and deepen the groove forming into a valley. If this continues, the actual plane of the bone is changed to the pyramided shape. Bone does not grow from the seams, but instead grows from wide areas throughout the bone. So the tipped areas themselves (particularly along the vertebrals with more bones than scutes) will be growing bone in a direction that will simply add to the pyramiding. That will make it much harder to alter the pyramiding in a tortoise once it has progressed substantially. Yet a young tortoise, with just the start of pyramiding, can develop quite smooth future growth easily at an earlier stage that hasn’t progressed too far.
> 
> So - for me this answered all the questions. All the pieces fit and all the scenarios I actually see, anywhere, all fit. There are two things needed to pyramid a tortoise. Active growth and dry conditions. It is only by putting the epithelial layer into compression that osteoclasts will be formed to dissolve bone under the area in compression.
> 
> Diet will not matter. Pressure triggers osteoclast genesis. With poor diet you can have a tortoise with pyramiding PLUS metabolic bone disease. If anything, the pyramiding is releasing a bit more calcium into the bloodstream to help bone growth elsewhere! If diet is so poor that growth is stopped, of course there would be no pyramiding because there is no growth of new keratin.
> 
> Excess protein will not trigger osteoclast genesis. And certainly not only in specific areas under scute seams. Excess protein will create excess purines and possible stone formation problems. Smooth or pyramided!
> 
> Exercise does trigger osteoblasts genesis and better bone growth and density. It does not trigger osteoclast genesis and again would have no effect on localizing that under scute seams.
> 
> Fast growth does not affect pyramiding. You can have fast growing smooth tortoises and fast growing pyramided tortoises. Just as you can have slow growing smooth tortoises or slow growing pyramided tortoises. If they grow, fast or slow, when conditions are too dry – they will pyramid.
> 
> UVB exposure will not change pyramiding. It will certainly affect calcium uptake and utilization as D3 is necessary for that. So it will affect bone growth, but will not trigger bone dissolving in such a specific, localized area as only under the scute seams. In extreme cases, it will lead to metabolic bone disease as osteoclasts are triggered throughout the greater storage rich bone areas as it looks to release calcium back in to the blood stream. But that is also more concentrated in the hip and pelvic bones and plastral bones. Not at all calling osteoclasts into play under scute seams. Totally separate metabolic events.
> 
> Tortoises have ended up in the wild in “left over” habitats. They have been outcompeted and predated upon in any of the more favorable habitats. Their survival is because the have found way to survive in habitats that are much more hostile. Water is the key ingredient to survival. They are masters at maintaining it and finding microclimates that are less harsh. Nature gives them food and growth along with the moisture. In drier times, the food disappears, and the tortoise aestivates or brumates and does not grow. Their first few years, most tortoises spend their lives buried in the ground, or in leaf litter, always protecting themselves not only from predation, but from desiccation.
> 
> In so many areas their ‘natural range’ has been altered by man. With the advent of irrigation and reservoirs, the expansion of agriculture into their native ranges has even changed the food availability to drier times of the year and we see pyramided “wild” tortoises. Or so many now kept in compounds and fed through drier times and kept from digging and burrowing naturally – it is hard to tell what a “natural” tortoise looks like. We would have to look back 1000 years or so in many areas to really see a true wild tortoise in totally unchanged habitat. Certainly, in captivity, we have changed the way they live and the way they look.
> 
> Perhaps we are now learning enough to finally learn the conditions in which these amazing animals will do best. I am seeing more and more examples of tortoises that I believe look the way they were designed to grow. Maybe that will soon become the norm. Hopefully in the not too distant future we will see smooth tortoises again represented in the pictures and artwork depicting their species.




Excellent read. I'm just re-entering the tortoise husbandry research world. A lot has changed since I got my Egyptian tortoise 13 years ago. In retrospect, I wish I'd continued to read and stay on top of the latest ideas during the past few years. She has some moderate pyramiding that maybe I could have prevented. 

Your ideas make sense, and with the apparent success that people are having with the more humid approach, I'm inclined to believe the riddle is solved. I'm definitely going to go with the enclosed approach for my new leopard tortoise. 

I wonder if the same results could be achieved by recreating the tortoises' natural habitats, complete with micro climates. But, feasibly, this would be much more difficult to maintain on a captive-sized scale. We don't always know exactly what a tortoise may need, and don't have the space to create every option. That can lead to an animal spending most of its time in a space that's a little too dry because that is the only hiding spot that meets his temp needs, or vice versa. So, I do think this "new" idea of keeping the entire enclosure at what we're guessing is the optimal humidity is probably the best way to go.

Anyway, thanks for the write-up. This, along with Tom's post about humid enclosures makes sense. I'm glad I ventured back over here and found them. I thought I had a decent understanding of how to keep my new tortoise, but I think you guys over here have advanced tortoise husbandry quite a bit since I learned about tortoise tables 15 years ago.


----------



## Billna the 2

I’m thinking more vitamin A in diet?


----------



## Dcarbary

Markw84 said:


> I remember as a young boy one of the things that fueled my interest with chelonians was seeing how much was just NOT KNOWN about them. When I became fascinated with an animal, I ran to the encyclopedia to find out about it. I also always went to the library and checked out every book I could find on the subject. What is the best diet? Temperature? How about incubating eggs when I got them? Nowhere could I find anything about what temperature was best. So I had to figure things out myself. Today we are so lucky with information at our fingertips. The internet – this forum! Yet still today, when it comes to chelonians, so much still seems to no be KNOWN. Most everything is, at best, debated. Some proposing one way, while another ‘expert’ says that won’t work. But we do have a chance now to see literally thousands of examples of results. But even results can be misleading if we don’t take into consideration the unique conditions that keeper in that part of the world provided. So little seems to be KNOWN!
> 
> Pyramiding is one of the best examples. In todays world of modern technology and scientific knowledge, there is still no proposed theory anywhere on how, metabolically, pyramiding even happens. It was just the last decade that it even became more apparent how to even prevent it. But that is still hotly debated. Most import of wild caught tortoises has been stopped for some time now. Pyramided tortoise has become the norm. Most pictures and artwork depicting tortoise show pyramided tortoise as “normal”!
> 
> We have enough evidence now to see that humidity is the key to preventing it. I can now grow smooth tortoises at will, after over 40 years of never being able to. I tried side by side groups of low protein vs higher protein groups. Groups of Fast growth vs slow growth. 3 groups of Store bough greens vs commercial pellets, vs natural grazing only. Stable temperatures vs night drops. Everything all the ‘experts’ said, I tried. Then I heard about humidity. I found this forum and read Tom’s thread on ending pyramiding. It all made sense immediately. I think it was the frustration of failing so many times and having to try so many proposed solutions that allowed me to find all the things that did not affect pyramiding. So many who have not had to struggle with it because of their location do not have that perspective. They will say it is diet, exercise, slower growth, etc, etc. All necessary for the most healthy of tortoises, but I found had nothing to do with pyramiding.
> 
> So, once I found out how to keep tortoises from pyramiding, the question still remained – why? Why did humidity work? Why didn’t diet or fast growth or exercise matter? I needed to know why! And no one, nowhere, knew why. There were enough pieces to the puzzle that were known. I had watched tortoise grow for decades. I monitored how pyramiding started and progressed. I could see what was happening. But to put the remaining pieces together took me into research in the anatomy and physiology of tortoise, keratin growth, bone growth, and even orthodontics.
> 
> A tortoise is a very uniquely modified animal. It is a vertebrate, yet carries its main skeletal structure on the outside. To protect this outside, exposed bone, another protective layer of keratin has developed over the bone. This is a unique adaptation as two hard surfaces normally do not come immediately in contact with each other in vertebrates. Bones are surrounded by cartilage and muscle - and even in more exposed areas, layers of hair and skin that cushion and provide ample blood flow. Keratin is also an interesting substance. Forming hair, nails, feathers, horns, it normally grows where the new keratin being formed is protected by living tissue from drying too quickly. Cuticles, hair follicles, feather sheaths, scalp around the base of horns, etc, etc. The tortoise, however, grows keratin that is exposed immediately to the external environment as it starts to spread and grow. No protective covering on the outside growth areas.
> 
> If you watch a tortoise grow and pyramid, you soon see that pyramiding is driven by the scutes, not by bone. For maximum strength, the scutes of a tortoise never align with the seams of an underlying bone. They all overlap - creating a very strong structure. Yet when a tortoise pyramids, the pyramiding ALWAYS follows the pattern of the scute. Where individual bones lay has no effect on the pattern of pyramiding. The scute remains a uniform thickness. It does not thicken in the center. The bone also retains a fairly uniform thickness, but deforms to match to shape of the pyramiding. Bone would not grow that way unless something was forcing it to deform. I also saw that pyramiding was the forming of valleys at the seams of scutes, not the raising of the centers. A perfectly smooth tortoise will have the higher, more domed look that matches the peaks of a pyramided tortoise, not the valleys.
> 
> From studies on keratin, we see that keratin is quite hydroscopic when new and forming. It is more pliable and absorbs water easily. As it matures, and “dries” it becomes much harder and stiffer and loses most of its hydroscopic properties and no longer absorbs water and swells. It becomes a much stiffer and stronger, protective substance. Tortoises add very little thickness to a scute as it grows. New keratin is formed at the seams of the spreading scutes as a tortoise grows. As the underlying bone grows, the seam spreads between the scutes. Keratin spreads outward to fill this seam and slowly adds thickness, swelling to match the “finished” thickness of the scute. Often, this new keratin will swell thicker than the older scute section and create a ridge in a faster growing “smooth” tortoise. This will dry and age over the next several months and smooth out to a more flush level, but leave a distinct ‘growth ring’. The thickness of the scute of a 30” sulcata is pretty much the same as a 15” sulcata. New keratin is not added to the underside of the central parts of scutes as a tortoise grows.
> 
> They have no protective layer over the new keratin growth, so the outside of the newly forming keratin is exposed to the environment. If while this new keratin is growing and spreading, it is exposed to conditions that allow it to dry too quickly, it will lose its ability to continue to swell and fill in thickness. The underside of the keratin, in direct contact to living tissue (the epithelial layer) still is pliable and swelling. This imbalance forces the new growth to swell downward as it cannot continue to fill in upward. This puts a small but constant pressure on that epithelial layer and puts it in compression as it is being pressed into the bone below. This is the beginning of pyramiding.
> 
> How does this slight pressure deform bone? As mentioned earlier, the tortoise shell is very uncommon in vertebrates in having bone next to a hard surface. There is a very thin layer of tissue that separated the bone from the scutes called the epithelial layer. This delivers blood supply and nutrients to the bone and new keratin growth and creates a barrier between the bone and the hard scute. Epithelial tissues are everywhere in a vertebrate. It covers the outside of your body (skin), lines organs, vessels, and cavities. But it also is defined by not covering a hard surface and in direct contact with bone. However, there is one place I found something most similar to this positioning of hard surfaces. Teeth and the jaw bone. There is a layer formed between the teeth and the jawbone that separates and somewhat cushions the jawbone from the teeth. It is called the periodontal ligament. It still retains pockets of epithelial cells throughout that effects some of its functions. AND, it was In studying examples of how bone can be deformed or reshaped, I again was lead to teeth.
> 
> When a slight but consistent pressure is applied to a tooth, it puts the periodontal ligament into compression on one side of the tooth in the direction of the pressure. That triggers the formation of an important type of cell in our bodies called osteoclasts. Osteoclasts are specialized cells that break down and dissolve bone. Bones are constantly restructuring and rebuilding. Another type cell, the osteoblast – builds new bone. This adds density to our bones and grows our bones when we are younger. Under stress, (exercise) it is triggered to build density and more strength. Osteoclasts, on the other hand, are called into play to remove older bone, and also to tap into the stores of calcium and phosphorus in our bones in times where our levels of calcium or phosphorus in our blood drops too low. Our bones are more than an inert structural item. They are living, constantly remodeling stores of tissue and minerals.
> 
> So how do they move teeth? Apply a slight but constant pressure on a tooth. That puts the periodontal ligament in compression on one side of the tooth. That triggers the formation of a bunch of extra osteoclasts that form at that site of the pressure and start dissolving bone to relieve that pressure. On the other side of the tooth, the periodontal ligament is then in tension. This triggers osteoblasts that are called into action and an abundance of osteoblasts go to work forming new bone to fill in the area that is putting the periodontal ligament in tension. So - the bone is not deformed. It is broken down and removed on one side and new bone is built on the other side.
> 
> In our tortoises, when the new keratin dries to quickly, it is putting that epithelial layer into compression as the new keratin growth can only swell and fill in downward. The epithelial layer call osteoclasts into action at the site to dissolve and remove bone and relieve the compression on that epithelial layer. This creates a groove in the bone directly under the new growth. Even in smooth, “normal growth” tortoises, you can often see grooves in the bone formed by the growth rings. However, if the dry conditions persist and the tortoise continues to grow in conditions that are too dry, the newly forming seam will also press down on the epithelial layer over the bone and deepen the groove forming into a valley. If this continues, the actual plane of the bone is changed to the pyramided shape. Bone does not grow from the seams, but instead grows from wide areas throughout the bone. So the tipped areas themselves (particularly along the vertebrals with more bones than scutes) will be growing bone in a direction that will simply add to the pyramiding. That will make it much harder to alter the pyramiding in a tortoise once it has progressed substantially. Yet a young tortoise, with just the start of pyramiding, can develop quite smooth future growth easily at an earlier stage that hasn’t progressed too far.
> 
> So - for me this answered all the questions. All the pieces fit and all the scenarios I actually see, anywhere, all fit. There are two things needed to pyramid a tortoise. Active growth and dry conditions. It is only by putting the epithelial layer into compression that osteoclasts will be formed to dissolve bone under the area in compression.
> 
> Diet will not matter. Pressure triggers osteoclast genesis. With poor diet you can have a tortoise with pyramiding PLUS metabolic bone disease. If anything, the pyramiding is releasing a bit more calcium into the bloodstream to help bone growth elsewhere! If diet is so poor that growth is stopped, of course there would be no pyramiding because there is no growth of new keratin.
> 
> Excess protein will not trigger osteoclast genesis. And certainly not only in specific areas under scute seams. Excess protein will create excess purines and possible stone formation problems. Smooth or pyramided!
> 
> Exercise does trigger osteoblasts genesis and better bone growth and density. It does not trigger osteoclast genesis and again would have no effect on localizing that under scute seams.
> 
> Fast growth does not affect pyramiding. You can have fast growing smooth tortoises and fast growing pyramided tortoises. Just as you can have slow growing smooth tortoises or slow growing pyramided tortoises. If they grow, fast or slow, when conditions are too dry – they will pyramid.
> 
> UVB exposure will not change pyramiding. It will certainly affect calcium uptake and utilization as D3 is necessary for that. So it will affect bone growth, but will not trigger bone dissolving in such a specific, localized area as only under the scute seams. In extreme cases, it will lead to metabolic bone disease as osteoclasts are triggered throughout the greater storage rich bone areas as it looks to release calcium back in to the blood stream. But that is also more concentrated in the hip and pelvic bones and plastral bones. Not at all calling osteoclasts into play under scute seams. Totally separate metabolic events.
> 
> Tortoises have ended up in the wild in “left over” habitats. They have been outcompeted and predated upon in any of the more favorable habitats. Their survival is because the have found way to survive in habitats that are much more hostile. Water is the key ingredient to survival. They are masters at maintaining it and finding microclimates that are less harsh. Nature gives them food and growth along with the moisture. In drier times, the food disappears, and the tortoise aestivates or brumates and does not grow. Their first few years, most tortoises spend their lives buried in the ground, or in leaf litter, always protecting themselves not only from predation, but from desiccation.
> 
> In so many areas their ‘natural range’ has been altered by man. With the advent of irrigation and reservoirs, the expansion of agriculture into their native ranges has even changed the food availability to drier times of the year and we see pyramided “wild” tortoises. Or so many now kept in compounds and fed through drier times and kept from digging and burrowing naturally – it is hard to tell what a “natural” tortoise looks like. We would have to look back 1000 years or so in many areas to really see a true wild tortoise in totally unchanged habitat. Certainly, in captivity, we have changed the way they live and the way they look.
> 
> Perhaps we are now learning enough to finally learn the conditions in which these amazing animals will do best. I am seeing more and more examples of tortoises that I believe look the way they were designed to grow. Maybe that will soon become the norm. Hopefully in the not too distant future we will see smooth tortoises again represented in the pictures and artwork depicting their species.


Excellent work! Thanks for the in depth info.


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## Dcarbary

eminart said:


> Excellent read. I'm just re-entering the tortoise husbandry research world. A lot has changed since I got my Egyptian tortoise 13 years ago. In retrospect, I wish I'd continued to read and stay on top of the latest ideas during the past few years. She has some moderate pyramiding that maybe I could have prevented.
> 
> Your ideas make sense, and with the apparent success that people are having with the more humid approach, I'm inclined to believe the riddle is solved. I'm definitely going to go with the enclosed approach for my new leopard tortoise.
> 
> I wonder if the same results could be achieved by recreating the tortoises' natural habitats, complete with micro climates. But, feasibly, this would be much more difficult to maintain on a captive-sized scale. We don't always know exactly what a tortoise may need, and don't have the space to create every option. That can lead to an animal spending most of its time in a space that's a little too dry because that is the only hiding spot that meets his temp needs, or vice versa. So, I do think this "new" idea of keeping the entire enclosure at what we're guessing is the optimal humidity is probably the best way to go.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the write-up. This, along with Tom's post about humid enclosures makes sense. I'm glad I ventured back over here and found them. I thought I had a decent understanding of how to keep my new tortoise, but I think you guys over here have advanced tortoise husbandry quite a bit since I learned about tortoise tables 15 years ago.


iinfo.ive started giving 'Ricky' & 'Lucy'...my two baby red-foots...a spring water drench every day while keeping their enclosure at 50%+ humidity by watering down the coconut husks that I use for their environment.


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## Davide.bach

Hi guys!
for the lair of my baby Sulcata I created a cover of synthetic material for padding, like a pocket where she slips. this pocket is inside a wooden structure with a roof. outside at a certain distance there is a ceramic lamp that heats ... this synthetic cover is porous, retains the surrounding humidity (90%) almost to be wet ... When the baby enters it slips under it as if it were a tunnel and its shell is always wet / wet ... it should work to prevent the pyramid!


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## Davide.bach

Pics


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## Davide.bach

After 1 week : + 35 gr weight


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## Dcarbary

I like it!!! I just douse mine with a cap-full of spring water every day. They weren't too sure what was going on at first but now they actually seem to enjoy it. I do it right in the middle of feeding and they don't skip a bite! 2 baby 'Red-Footed tortoises, here.


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## Dcarbary

Davide.bach said:


> Pics


How old? I just got 2 baby red-footed tortoises and I'm trying to guess their ages...mmmaybe a bit older than this???


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## TechnoCheese

Davide.bach said:


> Pics


What substrate are you using? And is that a red light?


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## Davide.bach

TechnoCheese said:


> What substrate are you using? And is that a red light?


it is the red one that warms, but where she sleeps it is dark! I'm waiting for the ceramic one ...

the substrate is layered: soil underneath, then peat, then orchid bark and in the house I added a layer of clay balls that retain heat


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## Davide.bach

Dcarbary said:


> How old? I just got 2 baby red-footed tortoises and I'm trying to guess their ages...mmmaybe a bit older than this???


3 month old! he came from a farm where he only ate lettuce ....


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## Davide.bach

the pocket in synthetic spongy material (wadding) works well! when baby sleep , the shell is wet with a temperature of 31 -32 degrees celsius


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## Davide.bach




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