# Tortoises on the black market



## batchick (Feb 5, 2012)

I spotted this article in Farmers Weekly (South African magazine) this week. Sorry for the large file size, I just wanted to make sure it was legible.
So, it is currently fire season in here in the Western Cape. Every summer we have fires, the environment is designed to cope with that. But, the frequency of fires is increasing - often due to people leaving broken bottles around that can spark fires, or not extinguishing cigarettes. The frequency of the fires is causing problems for the recovery of the local ecosystem.

Last month there was a massive fire in the Elandsberg Nature reserve, which probably means little to you, but this article says that approx 80% f the total population of geometric tortoises live here.

Cape Nature managed to rescue about 100 of them - the total population is estimated to be under 3000. But here's the thing that got me. They will not let anyone know where they are rehabbing the tortoises because of fears of theft. The geometrics reach high prices on the black market.

I guess I have two questions, everyone on the site here buys from reputable sellers and trade tends to be in captive born - there's very little that our local government and organisations can do to stop poaching (you should what is happening to our rhino), how effective are the measures in the States or wherever you are stop this kind of trade?

And secondly, if we are looking at a context where a wild population is going to be less and less viable, what role to owners have in maintaining the genetic viability of the remaining population?
Long posting I know, but the story piqued my curiousity.


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## Zamric (Feb 5, 2012)

I have often Wondered about this!


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## ascott (Feb 5, 2012)

I do not buy tortoise nor turtle. I find that there is no real viable reason to support a person who is promotes breeding for financial gain, and this in my opinion, is all that happens when people begin to breed a particular species in private. 

I have heard some folks say that they are preserving a species by their back yard by breeding, however, I do not see it that way. 

Until we have a way to stop our own human species from destroying viable parts of the world and making it so that there is no place to return the populations to, then there is really no reason for folks to back yard breed, unless for profit. 

Some private breeders will even promote taking wild caught specimens to add to their gene pool all in the name of preserving a species...preserving in a back yard for what purpose......? Profit. And gosh are the babies adorable....I love the babies....however, for actual gene pool preservation, preservation for what purpose?? Profit, but lets just call it what it is, you know?

I come from a conservationist point of view which I am sure is why I am totally bias.. others may and will object and continue to say that tortoise are bred for the preservation of the species, but if there is no natural wildland in which to place them, then this is a mute opinion, in my opinion that is. 

In my opinion, the measures here in the states are greatly profit motivated the same they are in all other parts of the world..we simply try to package the message a little differently is all.....

Now, I do believe that backyard breeders would be a perfect method in which to offer a supply of tortoise to place back in the wild...if there were a real set up designed for this to happen, but there just is not....currently few government organizations are the only allowed to "participate" in this type of re population....however, could you imagine if the entire world believed and realized that if we all worked together to improve our world...if we all took a stand to allow ours and every other species the equal right to thrive, what a world we would have.....then, perhaps I would support private breeders with their preservation of a species theory....


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## batchick (Feb 5, 2012)

Ascott, you raise interesting points. I was astounded that they wouldn't say where the tortoises were being rehabbed in case of poaching. It just seemed so hectic. 
I agree with your position on the answer being conservation, but the reality seems to be so much harder than the principle. 
No doubt unscrupulous folk will mobilize an ethical sounding excuse for profit making. Thing is, what is the immediate response to endemic habitat destruction? 
Anyway, I think this is too hard for my brain on a Friday night. Bed time in South Africa. I'll have found a solution to this and all the world's other problems by morning. Watch this space


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## ascott (Feb 5, 2012)

> the reality seems to be so much harder than the principle



I agree, but then at the same time, it is really very simple. However, it would take a global mind change---that is the harder part.



> Thing is, what is the immediate response to endemic habitat destruction?



I believe that we have segregated the world into too many individuals...when in reality it is all part of itself...sometimes what we would see as a natural endemic habitat destruction would not be as final if there were accompanying space that would naturally evolve as the next step--so to speak---but the world has disallowed this natural process by the segregation and the human habit of claiming. In my opinion that is. After all where we are as a race/species did not happen in an immediate fashion...but rather a continual feed....we as humans normally would not allow a sudden and immediate form of change, we are a gradual kinda species, you know....alot can be slipped past if it is done in small, apparently insignificant pieces. Before we know it alot has changed....



> I'll have found a solution to this and all the world's other problems by morning.



Oh good!!!! Hope. I will await the next installment


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## zesty_17 (Feb 5, 2012)

There are several states & organizations like Texas, TSA, and Florida that do a lot to stop this. I have personally met some of the Fish & Wildlife guys that are heading up this task force, and they have been met with both great success and great heartbreak in their endeavors. Turtle conservation is something that I strongly advocate for, and fully support the individuals in the field. I think people that are taking on this battle for tortoises/turtles on the black market need all of the support they can get. Bill Turner, one of the main guys for fl, has stated black market turtle prices as much as $15 a lb for softshell turtles being sold black market to Asia. Whenever I look at my sweet Rufus's face (my legal yearling fl softshell), or any of my turtles for that matter, I can't help but see the gentleness and amazing will to life turtles have. It breaks my heart.


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## TylerStewart (Feb 8, 2012)

ascott said:


> I have heard some folks say that they are preserving a species by their back yard by breeding, however, I do not see it that way.



I'm curious of a name of someone who claims that their backyard breeding is supposed to be preserving a species.... I know of some people that think that way (and probably are preserving a species with their backyard breeding), but I don't think I've ever heard them say it publicly. Can you offer us some examples? 

Not that there's anything wrong with making a few dollars for your efforts in breeding tortoises.... Work in any other industry is to be rewarded with financial gain. Does the fact that it's work with an animal mean you're supposed to do it for free? The fact that money can be made doesn't mean a thing. It doesn't mean that an animal is kept in bad conditions. It doesn't mean an animal is going to a bad home. It doesn't mean that an animal is going to be abused. What's the problem here? 

For the record, it's a lot easier, cheaper and more successful to breed the rare tortoises in captivity in the US than it is to "save the forests" in Africa or Asia. 



> I was astounded that they wouldn't say where the tortoises were being rehabbed in case of poaching.



Most conservation projects overseas are in private locations, and really, even major collections within the US are mostly completely closed to the public. Tortoise theft is a very common thing.


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## ripper7777777 (Feb 8, 2012)

As far as Black market or illegal poaching, I know Texas Game Wardens and Such are always on the guard and we have many laws, all though personally I think Texas could use some more regarding wild caught.


As far as breeding for profit, I don't see anything wrong with the pet trade in theory, sure we all know puppy mills and other bad conditions exist, but I don't think we should end the pet trade, but we do need some strict regulations. We have food inspectors for restaurants, but anyone can breed and sell animals.

I would prefer all Tortoises come from captive breeding programs and not be wild caught at all, and I think those people breeding them should make a profit, probably more than they do, it's a lot of work and cost.

As far as preserving the animal, if the choice is captive only or extinct, I'll take captive, but of course I would prefer there be a large population of wild animals and a large population of pet animals. I think we would all agree that habitat conservation would be the best for the wild ones, but don't hold your breath waiting for mankind to impress you. Drastic actions from DNA sampling to Zoo breeding programs and the Pet Trade may end up being the only route to save some species as we dominate and destroy this planet.


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## ascott (Feb 8, 2012)

> For the record, it's a lot _easier, cheaper_ and more successful to breed the rare tortoises in captivity in the US than it is to "save the forests" in Africa or Asia.



I believe that this type of thinking is a real hazard to rare tortoise preservation and conservation as well as a threat to tortoise who are moving into that same rare category. Again, please understand that my statement here is entirely in my opinion.



> making a few dollars for your efforts in breeding tortoises



This statement is essentially what I am referring to when I referenced people backyard breeding and then saying that they are preserving a species, again--preserving a species that can never be released back into its wildland--likely because the native wildland has been raped of its resources--or so disturbed it has forever been negatively altered...this maybe a good reason to save the rain forests ....or maybe a good reason to save Africa--along with most other places we consume vs share....



> It doesn't mean that an animal is kept in bad conditions. It doesn't mean an animal is going to a bad home. It doesn't mean that an animal is going to be abused.



Agreed...never made a statement to this affect


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## TylerStewart (Feb 9, 2012)

ascott said:


> > For the record, it's a lot _easier, cheaper_ and more successful to breed the rare tortoises in captivity in the US than it is to "save the forests" in Africa or Asia.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that this type of thinking is a real hazard to rare tortoise preservation and conservation as well as a threat to tortoise who are moving into that same rare category. Again, please understand that my statement here is entirely in my opinion.



No offense, but I don't understand your statement here at all.... 



ascott said:


> > making a few dollars for your efforts in breeding tortoises
> 
> 
> 
> This statement is essentially what I am referring to when I referenced people backyard breeding and then saying that they are preserving a species, again--preserving a species that can never be released back into its wildland--likely because the native wildland has been raped of its resources--or so disturbed it has forever been negatively altered...this maybe a good reason to save the rain forests ....or maybe a good reason to save Africa--along with most other places we consume vs share....



So you're suggesting that the fact that a species may not be able to be reintroduced means there's no point in breeding it in captivity? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for saving the forests and natural habitats, but forests aren't that easy to save. People have been trying to do it for hundreds of years and little has changed. I don't think a "save the forest" rally within TortoiseForum.org is going to change anything anytime soon. Like I said, at least in captivity, preservation of a species can be done, whether or not it ever makes it back to the wild. 

Maybe I'm missing something, but what's your beef with someone of good intentions trying to preserve a species in captivity? Usually the argument is that animals in captivity are abused, etc, but if you don't think that, I just don't understand the problem.


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## Tim/Robin (Feb 10, 2012)

ascott said:


> I have heard some folks say that they are preserving a species by their back yard by breeding, however, I do not see it that way.
> 
> ...then there is really no reason for folks to back yard breed, unless for profit.



SO, should we attempt to return ALL Madagascan tortoises to the wild? The reality is, their habitat is being taken away. Yes by humans! However, these humans are in an extremely poor country where survival is a day to day issue, even getting fuel to cook with is a problem. Unless we (as a human race) agree to annihilate entire populations to save areas of habitat, little can or will be done. It is a fact that within our life time the tortoises of Madagascar will be extinct in the wild, unless there are some drastic political and economic changes in Madagascar. Should we simply allow this to happen and not at least attempt to preserve these animals in captivity? Which is worse complete extinction or extinction in the wild? We can keep some species from going completely extinct through captive "backyard" breeding programs, both privately and in zoos. 

There are reasons for "backyard" breeders and profit is not always one of them!


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## Neal (Feb 10, 2012)

Tim/Robin said:


> There are reasons for "backyard" breeders and profit is not always one of them!



Good point!


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## StudentoftheReptile (Feb 10, 2012)

What is Tom Crutchfield's slogan? "Conservation through Commercialization!"

A little blunt, but I think its more or less what Tyler Stewart is saying. The natural environments where many of these species occur are getting destroyed at an alarming rate, and unless a LOT of people on the planet change their perspective, things aren't going to change anytime soon. It's a sad and unfortunate reality, and I don't really like it anymore than the next guy.

So in reality, the only way to preserve many of these species is maintain and breed them in captivity. Like Tim/Robin said, having a captive population and none in the wild is better than having none anywhere at all.


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## Benjamin (Feb 10, 2012)

Neal said:


> Tim/Robin said:
> 
> 
> > There are reasons for "backyard" breeders and profit is not always one of them!
> ...



And really how much "profit" is to be made? It costs plenty of time and money to keep these animals going. 
I suppose if one kept only a few animals then a profit is possible. 
I have 2.2 adult heosemys spinosa from the TSA. These animals were part of a 9 ton, roughly 10,000 individuals, shipment headed for market in mainland China in 2001. 
I am helping to conserve this species by keeping them alive and well in my "backyard". Blood samples were collected years ago for genetic identification, they are managed in the regional studbook for this species. I will never make a "profit" from these turtles, I will never come close to breaking even financially with this species. 
Maybe I should rid myself of these "unprofitable" turtles I have cared for a decade now and focus on my G.elegans.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Feb 10, 2012)

Indeed, Benjamin. It is a common misconception that the practice of breeding, raising and selling reptiles (or any animal) is a lucrative. Most of the time, most of the people who do are more than happy to remain in the black!


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## Kristina (Feb 10, 2012)

Have to say I agree here. I have a group of 4 Manouria emys emys that I adopted from the TSA. It will probably be a decade or more before they are large enough to breed. For all those years I will be feeding them, heating their enclosures, buying supplies, etc. If I was to sell their offspring at any price to make a "profit," it would have to be so astronomical that nobody would ever buy them in a million years! But you know what? My TSA membership dues help support their conservation programs. So does the money I gave them for my M.e.e. I have 4 individuals of an endangered species that are being raised to be healthy individuals, and help preserve their species and ensure that they do not disappear off the face of the earth.

I also have a group of wild caught Kinixys homeana. These tortoises are being stripped from the wild at an alarming rate. There is no data on exactly how many exist in the wild, but I guarantee that the wild population cannot sustain the amount of individuals being collected. How do I know that? Because history tells us so, with hundreds of other species that are now endangered due to over collection and habitat loss. 

These are actually pretty delicate tortoises. By the time they get here, get to the pet store or get into a pet home, many are already dead or dying. They are dehydrated, full of worms, and won't eat and starve themselves to death.

Do I feel guilty about having wild caught tortoises. To be honest, YES! But how in the world can these tortoises ever be captive bred if someone doesn't work to do so? I personally have been working my BEHIND off the last three years to raise awareness about this species and also to breed them. But answer yourself this - if the adults are available in the petstores for $30-40, how much "profit" could I possibly make off of the 1-4 babies each of my adults females MIGHT produce a year, considering I have spent literally YEARS acclimating them, vetting them, and providing for their needs? 

All I can say is that I have successfully acclimated 7 of these animals to captivity, never lost a single one, have written an article on their care to reach out to others and hopefully improve the lives of those being kept as pets, and although I have yet to successfully hatch any, I have gotten eggs three years in a row. And I am going to keep trying. And not for any profit, but because I am entranced with these tortoises and want to do MY part for their species.


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## batchick (Feb 10, 2012)

Great post, Kristina. And it sounds like you are doing great work and well thought out work. It has been great to read this debate sitting in one of places where habitat s being destroyed at a rate of knots (though thankfully not as fast as Madagascar)


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## BrinnANDTorts (Feb 10, 2012)

I completely agree with what ever one else is saying...
When all the wild tortoises of a certain species are extinct and the only ones are the ones left in people's "backyard" breeding programs they are going to be the ones that have the ability to try and reintroduce that tortoise species into the wild and those tortoise keepers like Tim and Kristina will ALWAYS spend way more preserving their choosen tortoises then they would ever make off of them


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## grogansilver (Feb 12, 2012)

I'm sorry to pop people's Bubbles and I'm not criticizing people's opinions but As long as we have tortoises in back yards or collectors Hands or even zoo's "No tortoise's of any species will ever become extinct from the earth! there is eventually going to come a point in time where there will be over populations of humans taken up all parts of lands and all areas of earth with no room for animals at all except in captivity and farms and a tortoise in the wild will not exist at all! they will all become C/B! you know it and i know it, its just a matter of time! lets come to see reality Here, look around you.   PS: And the more you take them away from people's Hands by putting them on Endangered list and leaving them in wild they will disappear even faster! people who build houses and developments are exempt from endangered species of wild animals by wiping them out to build houses because building houses comes first among humanity, not animals!


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## 81SHOVELHEAD (Feb 12, 2012)

Not an expert by any means but i do like my torts .
Just last month wife & i were out driving checking out several parks on Galveston Bay.
We were walking our Snauzer & came across and older lady from Brazil who was also walking her dog .
We struck up a conversation & i was telling here i have 4 red foot tortoises.
Lady tells me she has been in the states for 4 yrs .
The day B4 she left Brazil a Friend of her husbands came over & had this huge sack of tortoises(red foots)
They fired up BBQ pit & had a huge going away party feasting on Red foots.
Wonder how many Red foots are left in the Amazon river area because this seems like it is an everyday custom to these people .
She actually asked me if i was raising them for food.
So i am glad my Torts are not going to end up as part of the food chain & at least when all the redfoots are gone from the wild at least they will not be extinct due to us few private breeders in the states .
And yes i do plan to raise & sell if i am lucky enough to produce some baby redfoots .
I dont consider this as being in it to make a profit .I see it as preserving a species of torts that i trully enjoy having around .
Mike D.


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## grogansilver (Feb 12, 2012)

"Money, "Profit or not", or what ever occasion it is, "except for food"! raising the red foot tortoises and dispersing them around, "the species lives on!


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