# Should sulcata breeding be regulated?



## Erik Elvis (May 31, 2020)

I’m just wondering what happens to the large number of sulcata being sold. I’m sure most people don’t know what they are getting into and wonder how many and given away or god forbid let loose. I’m sure a lot of them die in captivity long before adulthood.


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## Tom (May 31, 2020)

No. More government is not a good solution for any issue.

And its debatable whether or not this is an "issue" anyway.

Most of them die because most breeders start them too dry.


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## Erik Elvis (May 31, 2020)

I agree with the more government concept. But stepping back and not looking at it from a breeders perspective I do see it an issue


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## turtlesteve (May 31, 2020)

Breeding is not an issue. I could not disagree with your suggestion more strongly.

There is not a huge surplus of unwanted sulcatas. If they are given away, so what? Early mortality is a problem but the solution is to educate people.


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## iAmCentrochelys sulcata (May 31, 2020)

turtlesteve said:


> Breeding is not an issue. I could not disagree with your suggestion more strongly.
> 
> There is not a huge surplus of unwanted sulcatas. If they are given away, so what? Early mortality is a problem but the solution is to educate people.


One of the Many issues as well is People not caring For their Animals (including tortoises) the Right way.


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## Erik Elvis (May 31, 2020)

iAmCentrochelys sulcata said:


> One of the Many issues as well is People not caring For their Animals (including tortoises) the Right way.


Yeah well that’s kind of the mentality I have. Tons of these torts prob have poor lives and they’re so readily available I’m sure it’s the case with many of them.


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## Tom (May 31, 2020)

Erik Elvis said:


> Yeah well that’s kind of the mentality I have. Tons of these torts prob have poor lives and they’re so readily available I’m sure it’s the case with many of them.


You don't trample the rights of everyone because of a few bad apples. We already have laws and regulations to deal with the bad apples.

Rather than having an inept and corrupt government tell us what we can and can't do, as if we are helpless stupid children, the solution is education, and prosecution under existing law for cases of animal abuse.


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## Maro2Bear (Jun 1, 2020)

Erik Elvis said:


> I’m just wondering what happens to the large number of sulcata being sold. I’m sure most people don’t know what they are getting into and wonder how many and given away or god forbid let loose. I’m sure a lot of them die in captivity long before adulthood.



I’m sure lots of things sold die in captivity - plants, animals, reptiles, birds. I hate walking through the “garden center” of Lowes, Home Depot, Walmart during our long hot summers. Plants wilting to death. Bone dry. Pots over turned, no water. Lillies, orchids, fig trees, you name it. Dry as a bone - dead. Let alone all the tropical fish & puppies & cats. So, it’s not just tortoise breeders/consumers. I guess we as concerned owners do the best we can to take care of what we have, educate our family & circle of friends.


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## EllyMae (Jun 1, 2020)

When I was first trying to find a sulcata, I thought it was going to be easy, like going to the pound to get a mutt; they have so many of them, that they're happy for any to get adopted into suitable homes. Then I kept looking, and kept looking. I do not think there are as many unwanted as certain BuzzfeedNews articles would have us believe. 
I agree with Tom that governmental regulation is not what would be most useful here. I believe that this should be a self regulating process. People should only buy from repuatable breeders. If an animal is being mistreated, there are already laws to protect them. 
My opinion would be different if released sulcatas were hurting native wildlife.


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## Yvonne G (Jun 1, 2020)

Feral cats is a much bigger problem. Should the government regulate cat breeding because of the feral cat problem?


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## ArmadilloPup (Jun 1, 2020)

I like the critical thinking of this post, but it's a huge gray area. At a city ordinance level, I agree. I'd be down for leash laws for cats, and snitching on people who don't give their female animals a break.

At a national level, my country can't even get agricultural regulations right. Just recently, they allowed induced heat stroke (over the course of hours) as a "humane" solution to euthanize pigs. Highly intelligent animals, baking alive, because it's cheap. 

And the pet industry isn't ran by animal lovers, either. Just like factory farms, much of the problem comes from those who have industrialized animal husbandry. Real farmers and local breeders struggle to compete. A lot of backyard breeders who aren't educated are modeling their ways off of the industry and what they see in pet stores, and not proper animal care.


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## Tom (Jun 1, 2020)

Armadillogroomer said:


> And the pet industry isn't ran by animal lovers, either. Just like factory farms, much of the problem comes from those who have industrialized animal husbandry. Real farmers and local breeders struggle to compete. A lot of backyard breeders who aren't educated are modeling their ways off of the industry and what they see in pet stores, and not proper animal care.


I don't share your observations or opinions quoted above. I've seen the opposite. I worked retail pets for 8 years and wholesale for one year. For the last 25 years, both my career and hobbies have me involved with all aspects of the pet industry.

Almost all people involved in the pet industry are people who just like animals and pets. Even the people working in the big corporate run stores are, at heart, people who just love pets. What I see is mass ignorance. People don't know how to care for these animals correctly and the primary avenues for learning what is correct for a given species are all parroting the same wrong info. Education and leading by example and demonstration is the solution. Actively trying to help and teach people, like what we do here on this forum is the solution. Dispelling old myths and explaining why they are wrong day after day is how we solve this problem. The more people that get involved and do this, the sooner we will see improvement.

@wellington is/was involved with the pet industry. Barb, would you agree with my assessment of the pet store situation?


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## wellington (Jun 1, 2020)

Tom said:


> I don't share your observations or opinions quoted above. I've seen the opposite. I worked retail pets for 8 years and wholesale for one year. For the last 25 years, both my career and hobbies have me involved with all aspects of the pet industry.
> 
> Almost all people involved in the pet industry are people who just like animals and pets. Even the people working in the big corporate run stores are, at heart, people who just love pets. What I see is mass ignorance. People don't know how to care for these animals correctly and the primary avenues for learning what is correct for a given species are all parroting the same wrong info. Education and leading by example and demonstration is the solution. Actively trying to help and teach people, like what we do here on this forum is the solution. Dispelling old myths and explaining why they are wrong day after day is how we solve this problem. The more people that get involved and do this, the sooner we will see improvement.
> 
> @wellington is/was involved with the pet industry. Barb, would you agree with my assessment of the pet store situation?


I agree that most pet store owners/employees do love/like and care about animals. Of course there are those that for some reason think there is a lot of money to be made off them. This is true if you don't give proper care. That's where puppy mills come in. They make good money because they don't care and don't give proper care of any kind. 
For the most part I think the big pet store chains are your ones that don't care but most of their employees do.


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## LasTortugasNinja (Jun 1, 2020)

I don't see an abundance of sulcatas. I see people getting them in this forum, but I go to 7 different pet stores, I look at classifieds daily, and I almost never see sulcatas. I see russians and greeks far more.

I'm NEVER for regulation of animals breeding. If anything, I find it makes things worse. I used to breed leopard geckos. Not coz I wanted to make money, I was a teen just interested in the species. I GAVE the hatchlings to various school teachers for classroom pets to help people get over the stigma of slimy, creepy lizards. Made no money on them.

Now everyone is breeding designer leopard geckos. Same with pythons, and all sorts of animals. People are able to get the colors they want. You can still get "cheap" reptiles for $20 or less as well as the $4000 super morphs.

But look at dogs. Dogs are now HEAVILY regulated. In many towns, if your dog has puppies, you are charged extra taxes as a kennel. Dog licenses are huge for unneutered pets. Adrian's Petstore is closed down, the only game in town is the big national chains. When I was a kid, you could get a lab or german shepherd puppy for $20 at any park or grocery store. Now everyone is breeding "designer dogs" with cute names and demented crossings: "Schnaubradors" or "Puggle Shepherds" or worse... and charging $500 to $3K for these abominations... all because there are so many regulations and PETA's goosestepping that made every hobby breeder a "puppy mill" (yes, there were legit bad breeders, but I knew plenty of hobbyists who were harassed to closure from good intentioned idiots).

I'm all for the hobbyist breeder. Hopefully they are learning and perfecting their craft, as well as educating their friends and neighbors... even the ones who'd never buy the animal. The more we demystify the animals, the more we get captive born lines as a mainstream source of animals, the less strain we put on wild populations. 

Yeah, some of the animals get purchased by stupid but well-meaning parents for kids without the skills and willingness to put effort into caring for the pet, but that happens with dogs, cats, gerbils, and torts. Hopefully more and more get adopted by people who legitimately want to care for their future 80-200 year old family heirlooms. Yeah, it sucks that some live in horrid conditions, but it's not the government's job to tell people how to care for their animals, or how many they should have, etc. It's the job of other animal hobbyists, such as those found here, to freely share our knowledge and our trials and successes so that proper husbandry options are easily found. It's the hobbyists who are the ones changing how pets are cared for. My grandmother would NEVER allow a dog in the house and NEVER in a car. Today, my dogs are in my house with the family and if we want to go to a destination that says the dogs aren't welcomed, we don't go. It's been a slow change in how people see pets.

In the 90's, when I first started caring for various reptiles, there weren't two books you could find with the same info on how to care for a reptile. Everyone was full of zoologists that had their own "surefire" way of taking care of exotics. All written by people who cared for animals at a zoo or "observed" them in the wild. Every single one of those books are now FULL of wrong information. In 20 years, the FAQs here might be looked at the same way (no offense @Tom, I think they are great!). Tom2.0 will be telling people to download the latest care guides directly to their brains.

I think I rambled on too much... and I'm stopping now... I think it went incoherent. Apologies. I'm tired.


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## BlakeElDorado (Jun 3, 2020)

I think there is a myth out there that people don't know how big they will get and give them up constantly, thus leading to overflowing shelters. 

I wrote a comment that I was debating rehoming one of my two males due to their hormones and got nearly 60+ phone calls and 50 messages in less than 12 hours. What i've seen, at least locally, is the shelters here charge upwards of $300 to rehome, require an in person inspection and have crazy terms on the contract you sign...thus leading people to do private adoptions and leaving rescues full, with a false sense that their animals are not adoptible/wanted.


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## Obbie (Jun 3, 2020)

I got my Mali ?? as a rescue. Someone in North Dakota must have set loose in an oil fields. It’s very sad. She’s well taken care of, and loved ?


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## Tom (Jun 3, 2020)

BlakeElDorado said:


> I think there is a myth out there that people don't know how big they will get and give them up constantly, thus leading to overflowing shelters.
> 
> I wrote a comment that I was debating rehoming one of my two males due to their hormones and got nearly 60+ phone calls and 50 messages in less than 12 hours. What i've seen, at least locally, is the shelters here charge upwards of $300 to rehome, require an in person inspection and have crazy terms on the contract you sign...thus leading people to do private adoptions and leaving rescues full, with a false sense that their animals are not adoptible/wanted.


I agree with you.


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## William Lee Kohler (Jun 4, 2020)

Definitely agree there are a lot of them in rescues. Too much breeding just because they can by thoughtless people. Just look on Kingsnake and Faunaclassifieds. Always baby Sulcatas and Leopards for sale including some big ones,, I know of at least 2 private rescues with several Sulcatas and Leopards here in the northwest, likely there's others. But I definitely do NOT agree with getting government involved at all! The folks keeping them should just get a conscience and not plan on many or most of them dying! The lives of all of these innocent ones should be precious to us all.


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## Tom (Jun 4, 2020)

William Lee Kohler said:


> Definitely agree there are a lot of them in rescues. Too much breeding just because they can by thoughtless people. Just look on Kingsnake and Faunaclassifieds. Always baby Sulcatas and Leopards for sale including some big ones,, I know of at least 2 private rescues with several Sulcatas and Leopards here in the northwest, likely there's others. But I definitely do NOT agree with getting government involved at all! The folks keeping them should just get a conscience and not plan on many or most of them dying! The lives of all of these innocent ones should be precious to us all.


Did you read Blake's comment (Post #15 in this thread) about why there are so many in rescues?


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## turtlesteve (Jun 4, 2020)

BlakeElDorado said:


> I think there is a myth out there that people don't know how big they will get and give them up constantly, thus leading to overflowing shelters.
> 
> I wrote a comment that I was debating rehoming one of my two males due to their hormones and got nearly 60+ phone calls and 50 messages in less than 12 hours. What i've seen, at least locally, is the shelters here charge upwards of $300 to rehome, require an in person inspection and have crazy terms on the contract you sign...thus leading people to do private adoptions and leaving rescues full, with a false sense that their animals are not adoptible/wanted.



This comment on shelters is dead on accurate, happening everywhere that dog breeding is regulated best I can tell. We went to a shelter in PA once on a friend’s recommendation. They wanted a huge fee, home visit, follow up visits, and a contract saying they could repo the dog at any time if they found something they didn’t like. I told them they were insane, then told my friends more or less the same. No surprise, they had plenty of dogs available that they “couldn’t” find homes for.

There is a hidden agenda with these rescues / shelters. They are both trying to commercialize the rescue business under the guise of being a non profit, and force their own (often politically influenced) mindset on others by means of these policies.

Here there are regular want ads for adult sulcatas, we are nowhere close to having a surplus. I think southern CA might have a slight excess and the only thing stopping it from being equalized is the fact that it’s not practical to ship adults elsewhere.


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## Tom (Jun 4, 2020)

turtlesteve said:


> This comment on shelters is dead on accurate, happening everywhere that dog breeding is regulated best I can tell. We went to a shelter in PA once on a friend’s recommendation. They wanted a huge fee, home visit, follow up visits, and a contract saying they could repo the dog at any time if they found something they didn’t like. I told them they were insane, then told my friends more or less the same. No surprise, they had plenty of dogs available that they “couldn’t” find homes for.
> 
> There is a hidden agenda with these rescues / shelters. They are both trying to commercialize the rescue business under the guise of being a non profit, and force their own (often politically influenced) mindset on others by means of these policies.
> 
> Here there are regular want ads for adult sulcatas, we are nowhere close to having a surplus. I think southern CA might have a slight excess and the only thing stopping it from being equalized is the fact that it’s not practical to ship adults elsewhere.


I've seen a $300-500 "re-homing" fee for the "free" tortoise. Every once in a while one will show up at a county or city animal shelter here in Southern CA. There are literally a dozen people fighting over them and they are usually pyramided and sometimes in pretty bad shape. No home inspections or ridiculous contracts and the fee is about $25 last I checked.


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## VegasJeff (Jun 18, 2020)

Yvonne G said:


> Feral cats is a much bigger problem. Should the government regulate cat breeding because of the feral cat problem?



In my county, it's required by law that all cats must be fixed. Breeders need a special permit. I'm sure a lot of people aren't following this and I'm not aware of it actually being enforced. Stray and Feral Cat populations is going down here slowly according to their numbers but I suspect that is due to a successful TNR program they have.


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## BrookeB (Aug 6, 2020)

Tom said:


> I've seen a $300-500 "re-homing" fee for the "free" tortoise. Every once in a while one will show up at a county or city animal shelter here in Southern CA. There are literally a dozen people fighting over them and they are usually pyramided and sometimes in pretty bad shape. No home inspections or ridiculous contracts and the fee is about $25 last I checked.


I think he’s talking about a rescue and called it a shelter.

Honestly I’ve never seen a sulcata stay in a animal shelter for longer than a few days (usually the waiting period only) as for the rescues, I’ve worked in rescues for dogs, and for reptiles and honestly the requirements to adopt are what stop people from adopting, it’s not a surplus, in fact in my old town you cannot find puppies anymore, unless you want to spend hundreds on a “purebred” and all the puppies that do go to animal shelters are immediately taken by “rescues” that adopt them out for 300$ two days later (not joking I’ve watched it happen dozens of times) honestly the only reason rescues are so full is because most rescues expect too much from prospective owners and then ask a rehoming fee of twice or three times what the animal would cost to buy. At least this is my observation and opinion.


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## William Lee Kohler (Aug 7, 2020)

Tom said:


> Did you read Blake's comment (Post #15 in this thread) about why there are so many in rescues?



Yes. Of course that depends on where you live. However anyone that has hung out at reptile expos or at pet shops awhile will see sometimes children and other times young(imaginary)adults buying them because they're so cute. They're so little, how big can they get? There ARE sanctuaries with the unwanted and cannot care for big Sulcatas and likely a lot more than many can imagine. To me industry/breeders/owners need to BE educated and have a conscience.(NOT by the government!) I don't see them as anything at all disposable.


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## Tom (Aug 7, 2020)

William Lee Kohler said:


> Yes. Of course that depends on where you live. However anyone that has hung out at reptile expos or at pet shops awhile will see sometimes children and other times young(imaginary)adults buying them because they're so cute. They're so little, how big can they get? There ARE sanctuaries with the unwanted and cannot care for big Sulcatas and likely a lot more than many can imagine. To me industry/breeders/owners need to BE educated and have a conscience.(NOT by the government!) I don't see them as anything at all disposable.


Yes there are sanctuaries with lots of them. And as we've explained, those sanctuaries would be empty if they didn't have so many strings attached. Maybe the sanctuaries can just give them to the local animal shelters? When there are no strings attached, they seem to find homes readily.


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## Obbie (Aug 7, 2020)

It’s frightening how many Sulcatta, get turned loose after 50 pounds. That’s how I got my Mali ?? 
Yes, she’s a lot of work, but I love her. It’s worth all the work, when she comes out of her hide and follows me around !


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## khaiqha (Aug 16, 2020)

*Generally speaking, I'm for less govt involvement unless there's such a large harm involved that govt intervention is needed.

I don't think sulcata breeding is so out of control that it causes a great societal or ecological harm.

I would be ok with minimum care laws in regards to all animals to ensure animals get basic needs met.

As for feral cats, I do see them as having such a large ecological problem as needing govt invention, whether it's through spay and release programs, culling, or something else.

Some tortoise rescues near me have looser guidelines on what potential owners must do to get one, and they do have some sulcatas, but I wouldn't say they're overflowing with them. They do get a ton of box turtles though.

As for educating pet owners, YouTube has made it easier than ever before to learn proper husbandry. I dare say from a casual glance that many people now just vicariously watch pet YouTubers as opposed to owning the actual animal.*


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## Blackdog1714 (Aug 16, 2020)

What about cows? Don't we have too many of them. Grill out people---Grill our world depends on it!


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## Minority2 (Aug 16, 2020)

Blackdog1714 said:


> What about cows? Don't we have too many of them. Grill out people---Grill our world depends on it!



But but but the vegans are going to complain if we do that.








Vegan Sues Neighbor for Barbecuing Meat In Backyard


“It’s deliberate, that’s what I told the courts, it’s deliberate.”




time.com


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## AgataP (Aug 23, 2020)

Education is the key. 
I realize that if everything goes well my Sulcata gonna be huge - I want it to be healthy and happy. In order to do that I am researching, reading asking lots of questions that are possibly annoying at times but I want to make sure the tortoise has best life possible.

Now I am thinking about outdoor housing with heaters, lights, grass, etc. and I have him for only 4 days.
I am really glad I found this forum and people that are happy to help !!


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## Blackdog1714 (Aug 24, 2020)

glitch206 said:


> Education is the key.
> I realize that if everything goes well my Sulcata gonna be huge - I want it to be healthy and happy. In order to do that I am researching, reading asking lots of questions that are possibly annoying at times but I want to make sure the tortoise has best life possible.
> 
> Now I am thinking about outdoor housing with heaters, lights, grass, etc. and I have him for only 4 days.
> I am really glad I found this forum and people that are happy to help !!


With a sully thinking ahead to huge is necessary! A heated night box before you know it and you want to build it so maybe you only do it once!


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## Jlsretics (Sep 16, 2020)

Erik Elvis said:


> I’m just wondering what happens to the large number of sulcata being sold. I’m sure most people don’t know what they are getting into and wonder how many and given away or god forbid let loose. I’m sure a lot of them die in captivity long before adulthood.


Obviously there is a MAJOR problem with Sulcatas being overbred, but be VERY careful of wanting the government to get involved. First of all it would not be high priority, like drugs, and there are still tons of drugs around! The government tends to screw up whatever they touch and would be more likely to make everything illegal. See how carried away they b are with Burms? I have an idea that would be a self governance. Going to try to get it started here in Illinois. A person pays a small fee every year and gets inspected by peers. It is optional but buyers could refuse to buy from breeders that refuse and breeders could refuse to sell to buyers that refuse. Not breeding Sulcatas and certain genes in snakes that are week and cause neurological problems, like spider balls and blue eye Lucy retics. We NEED to police ourselves


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## Cathie G (Sep 16, 2020)

Jlsretics said:


> Obviously there is a MAJOR problem with Sulcatas being overbred, but be VERY careful of wanting the government to get involved. First of all it would not be high priority, like drugs, and there are still tons of drugs around! The government tends to screw up whatever they touch and would be more likely to make everything illegal. See how carried away they b are with Burms? I have an idea that would be a self governance. Going to try to get it started here in Illinois. A person pays a small fee every year and gets inspected by peers. It is optional but buyers could refuse to buy from breeders that refuse and breeders could refuse to sell to buyers that refuse. Not breeding Sulcatas and certain genes in snakes that are week and cause neurological problems, like spider balls and blue eye Lucy retics. We NEED to police ourselves


Just saw this. Yes we need to police ourselves.


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## Patrick McMullen (Sep 16, 2020)

Jlsretics said:


> Obviously there is a MAJOR problem with Sulcatas being overbred



The existence of this debate thread seems to suggest that it is not obvious.

I'm new to Sulcatas, but it does seem that 're-homing' posts both here and in other forums are vastly outnumbered by the 'look at my new baby' and 'I'm a new owner and I need advice' posts. That seems to suggest that the supply of rescues might not be sufficient to meet demand.


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## William Lee Kohler (Sep 17, 2020)

Patrick McMullen said:


> The existence of this debate thread seems to suggest that it is not obvious.
> 
> I'm new to Sulcatas, but it does seem that 're-homing' posts both here and in other forums are vastly outnumbered by the 'look at my new baby' and 'I'm a new owner and I need advice' posts. That seems to suggest that the supply of rescues might not be sufficient to meet demand.



Actually it seems to me as quite the opposite. YOU see few rescuees needing adoption. I see an endless number of new baby Sulcata owners which is going to result in an endless backlog of new big Sulcatas needing adoption by a diminishing number or folks able to take them in. I fear the day this happens. What happens to all the unfortunate homeless Big Sulcatas?


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## Maggie3fan (Sep 17, 2020)

It is my personal experience in the world of chelonia rescue that on the West Coast Sulcata are like feral cats and most rescues are over run with them. Now, I am not an expert by any means, but I helped my sister in her rescue then and with her I did home inspections, went to reptile shows and scooped massive amounts of poop. I saw her rescue from the bottom up. When I moved to Oregon I ended up rehabbing and finding homes for special needs turtles and tortoises. Right now I am trying to rehome Big Sam. I don't want any Sulcata breeding here and when my sister said Knobby was female, holy crap! Nobody burned up the telephone wires wanting to adopt him. I do have a family in Calif that wants him, but for this 'free' tortoise I haveta spend $500 in gas.
Anyway, during that same period I made connections along the East Coast, and it seems like the only rescue's having too many Sulcata was in NY state. I can't pay anybody to take Sulcata anymore. And I'm not talking about designer Sulcata or the Sudan's. I mean just a common ordinary maybe pyramided tortoise. So I'm thinking how one person views breeding Sulcata depends on the circles that person runs in. Somebody like Tom runs in way different circles than I do for instance. I have never seen a Sudanese Sulcata let alone clutches of them. But the Sulcata that I see and my sister saw now are coming into rescues with years of abuse and mistreatment, serious MBD. There will always be people who are into rescue, and there will always be Sulcata who need them.


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## AgataP (Sep 17, 2020)

Since I got Herbie - the baby Sulcata, I have been reading, researching and bugging Tom with emails. 
I see more and more and more people on social media - a lot on TikTok getting sulcatas. Lots of them live in apartments, poor enclosures provided etc.
I see people trying to rescue sulcatas and still breeding them at the same time. 
People get a reptiles having the idea of a “cheap and easy pet”. Most people won’t go on forum to research they will but the “kit for a tort with everything it needs”. 
Bring the animal home, plug things in and they are “set”.
I personally don’t think breeding any of the animals should be restrained however I strongly feel that online shops (like tortoise town - that I became a “victim” of because I trusted reviews and images) should not exist. 
I strongly believe people under 18-21 should not be able to purchase an animal. Yes sorry I said that people can be mad but trust me that age we are happy eating a cup of noodles and we think that’s all we need. 
Pet store that so sell sulcata, Russians, etc should be providing proper care sheets and should have some form of certification program. Unless your store passes that you can’t sell certain animals - but that’s the trick - that will involve some form of “higher power”, which potentially can cause trouble for great breeders and possibly spike in illegal tortoise trades. 
So for now all we can do we can educate, educate, educate!! 

I try to link this forum to any new, old and future tortoise/turtle owners.


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## turtlesteve (Sep 17, 2020)

I see lots of bad ideas being thrown around. Please understand there are extremely well funded and organized groups that want to ban all exotic animal ownership, and they will use any opportunity or excuse to do so. Accepting or promoting a regulatory solution opens the door for these groups.

Here in South Carolina I see more want ads than I see for free (or cheap) sulcatas. A lot of those want ads are seeking big ones. Dog and cat rescues already ship animals in bulk from states where there are too many to states where there are shortages. If someone could get all these big sulcatas to the southeast I’d just about guarantee they would find homes.

In short, I do not think we have reached “peak sulcata” yet, but maybe it will happen one day. As Maggie indicated, long distance transportation of these beasts is the real problem.


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## AgataP (Sep 17, 2020)

maggie3fan said:


> It is my personal experience in the world of chelonia rescue that on the West Coast Sulcata are like feral cats and most rescues are over run with them. Now, I am not an expert by any means, but I helped my sister in her rescue then and with her I did home inspections, went to reptile shows and scooped massive amounts of poop. I saw her rescue from the bottom up. When I moved to Oregon I ended up rehabbing and finding homes for special needs turtles and tortoises. Right now I am trying to rehome Big Sam. I don't want any Sulcata breeding here and when my sister said Knobby was female, holy crap! Nobody burned up the telephone wires wanting to adopt him. I do have a family in Calif that wants him, but for this 'free' tortoise I haveta spend $500 in gas.
> Anyway, during that same period I made connections along the East Coast, and it seems like the only rescue's having too many Sulcata was in NY state. I can't pay anybody to take Sulcata anymore. And I'm not talking about designer Sulcata or the Sudan's. I mean just a common ordinary maybe pyramided tortoise. So I'm thinking how one person views breeding Sulcata depends on the circles that person runs in. Somebody like Tom runs in way different circles than I do for instance. I have never seen a Sudanese Sulcata let alone clutches of them. But the Sulcata that I see and my sister saw now are coming into rescues with years of abuse and mistreatment, serious MBD. There will always be people who are into rescue, and there will always be Sulcata who need them.
> View attachment 306545


 
Maggie it you find a house for Sam I am willing to help you transport him. 
I have a Ford Transit Connect. It fits 5 x 100lbs dogs in. Please keep me in mind and I am close enough to you to help you. I pretty much drive anywhere if that will guarantee a great home for Sam.


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## Maggie3fan (Sep 17, 2020)

glitch206 said:


> Maggie it you find a house for Sam I am willing to help you transport him.
> I have a Ford Transit Connect. It fits 5 x 100lbs dogs in. Please keep me in mind and I am close enough to you to help you. I pretty much drive anywhere if that will guarantee a great home for Sam.


I appreciate the offer, really. But my problem is simpler then that. My Camaro is in top running condition, but I just don't have enuf gas money. And, no, I am not hinting at giving me money.


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## Cathie G (Sep 17, 2020)

Well... I've been pondering this for several years. The truth is I don't believe in the born free concept anymore. We need to protect and help them for our health too. I also think that the illegal pet trade could have been stopped years ago especially if the laws were inforced. Everyone cites loss of habitat for extinction and really in the wild a big part of them don't make it anyway. They are prey. At least there are many people dedicated to preservation of them, breeding, and education. If they want to pass more laws it should be for protection and help for the people trying to help them. Just saying.


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## Tom (Sep 17, 2020)

Cathie G said:


> If they want to pass more laws it should be for protection and help for the people trying to help them. Just saying.



Oh good lord no! I don't need any "help" from the government. All I need them to do is leave me alone.


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## Cathie G (Sep 17, 2020)

Tom said:


> Oh good lord no! I don't need any "help" from the government. All I need them to do is leave me alone.


I know what you mean.? It was hard for me to even post that.


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## Patrick McMullen (Sep 17, 2020)

"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help. " - Ronald Reagan


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## AgataP (Sep 17, 2020)

maggie3fan said:


> I appreciate the offer, really. But my problem is simpler then that. My Camaro is in top running condition, but I just don't have enuf gas money. And, no, I am not hinting at giving me money.



well keep me in mind ... that’s all I am saying


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## AgataP (Sep 17, 2020)

Tom said:


> Oh good lord no! I don't need any "help" from the government. All I need them to do is leave me alone.



They already got involved with damn lightbulbs ??


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## Tom (Sep 17, 2020)

glitch206 said:


> They already got involved with damn lightbulbs ??


CA has gone crazy. And its spreading like a cancer all over the country.


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## enchilada (Sep 28, 2020)

I totally agree with Tom on the impact of too much government regulations .
Also , in my opinion , from the economy stand if point , a healthy economy/market needs Circulation of products .which is production & consumption. 

Under current circumstance, High production rate/ low profit margin sulcata babies requires a huge amount of consumption to keep breeders in business . 
This shall be achieved by 
1) expanding more new consumers ( the last thing this needs is government regulation ) 
2)relatively high mortality rate of the baby sulcata from newbie owners acts as another factor of “consumption “ . Sounds cruel but Necessary in the economy stand of point .

...................
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Sulcata is a great “gateway “ pet for people to get in the tortoise hobby , which has a tremendous amount of positive effect on education and leading more people into putting effort on tortoise conservation in the long term . 
Too much government interference will definitely screw it up


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