# Sick Leopard Tortoise



## scubatyler (Nov 2, 2010)

My 7 month old leopard quit eating and became much less active about 2 weeks ago. After one week of not eating I noticed white gooey feces so I took the little guy (or girl) to the vet. The vet said that he wasn't sure what the problem is but checked the feces for parasites and said it was free of parasites and it was not urates. He had me give him vitamin B Complex injections in the hind leg for three days and also had me begin force feeding with a feeding tube.(mixed vegetable baby food) It has been about a week and there has been little improvement. He only opens his eyes for a few minutes after being soaked in warm water then closes them back up. His feces is still white but after 4 days of force feeding orange color from the food started showing up. His nose and mouth look fine. (no discharge) He drinks daily when he is soaked but still shows no interest in food. I think that his symptoms are very similar to a vitamin A deficiency but based on what I had been feeding him the vet said that it wasn't a likely cause of his sickness. His diet consisted of dandiolion greens, plantago, clover, malvaceae, mixed salad greens, and grasses including annual bluegrass, creeping bentgrass, and red fescue. UV light is provided with a 125 watt ExoTerra mercury vapor bulb and night time heat is provided with a ceramic heat emmiter attached to a thermostat. The basking temperature has a hot spot of 95 degrees and there is a nice gradient down to about 78 degrees at the cool end. The substrate was coir at the onset of the illness but the vet said to use something else so I switched it to timothy hay now. Please help me figure out what is wrong with this poor guy. Any advice is appreciated.


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## Maggie Cummings (Nov 2, 2010)

You are doing everything I would do for a sick tortoise. Except the Vit shots and the change of substrate. Tortoises don't usually suffer a lack of vitamins. Generally we want a humid atmosphere for the African torts and you can't have that with hay. So I seriously disagree with the hay. You simply can't create humidity with it. I am sure someone else will come on with better advice than I. Just keep on doing what you're doing and hope for the best.


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## Tom (Nov 3, 2010)

Hi Tyler. Welcome to the forum. I hope we can help you. It sounds like you've got everything right. I would bump up the temps 5-10 degrees all around and see if that helps. How often does he go outside for sun? Did you ever use one of those coil type flourescent reptile bulbs? How are you measuring those temps? Did you always soak him daily or just since he started showing symptoms of being ill? What is his length and weight? How long have you had him?

Just taking stabs in the dark here, but I'd really like to figure out what has gone wrong with your tort.


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## scubatyler (Nov 3, 2010)

Tom said:


> Hi Tyler. Welcome to the forum. I hope we can help you. It sounds like you've got everything right. I would bump up the temps 5-10 degrees all around and see if that helps. How often does he go outside for sun? Did you ever use one of those coil type flourescent reptile bulbs? How are you measuring those temps? Did you always soak him daily or just since he started showing symptoms of being ill? What is his length and weight? How long have you had him?
> 
> Just taking stabs in the dark here, but I'd really like to figure out what has gone wrong with your tort.



When I first got him I kept a small water dish in his cage that had a ramp so he could easily get in and out. He would go in there every day on his own until he got sick. I took the water out of his cage and started soaking him so I could be 100% sure he was still drinking. I have always used the exoterra mercury vapor bulb for UV light. never a CFL. It is too cold here now to go outside for sun but during the first few weeks I had him i would take him out for about an hour every day when I got home from work. To determine the temps I use a temp gun plus a normal thermometer. I have had him for a little less than 2 months. His weight is staying between 34 grams and 36 grams. I have never measured his length but I would guess around 2 inches. Do you think I should switch back to the coir or stick with the hay for now? The vet said that he has seen too many impaction problems caused by coir.


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## Seiryu (Nov 3, 2010)

scubatyler said:


> When I first got him I kept a small water dish in his cage that had a ramp so he could easily get in and out. He would go in there every day on his own until he got sick. I took the water out of his cage and started soaking him so I could be 100% sure he was still drinking. I have always used the exoterra mercury vapor bulb for UV light. never a CFL. It is too cold here now to go outside for sun but during the first few weeks I had him i would take him out for about an hour every day when I got home from work. To determine the temps I use a temp gun plus a normal thermometer. I have had him for a little less than 2 months. His weight is staying between 34 grams and 36 grams. I have never measured his length but I would guess around 2 inches. Do you think I should switch back to the coir or stick with the hay for now? The vet said that he has seen too many impaction problems caused by coir.



I think the vet is just saying he has seen many impaction problems with coir so you listen to him. Get rid of the hay definitely. I don't think I have read about a single impaction problem with coco coir on this forum. In fact I rarely see ANY impaction problems in general. And we have hundreds of tortoise people active every day.

I am not trying to lower the credibility to the vet, but how many tortoises does he actually see? Maybe 1 every few months?

The exo-terra UVB light is fine for UVB. I think I read that they have roughly the same UVB output as the ReptiSun 10.0 tube lights. And right now since MegaRay and T-rex are not something you want to buy (bulb issues). That's fine.

But the exo-terra light is a mercury vapor and not just the coil? (Just making sure).


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## yagyujubei (Nov 3, 2010)

I think that he's probably younger than you think. He's pretty lightweight. He may have been a fresh hatchling when you got him. Did you weigh him when you got him? Make sure that your soaking water is warm to the touch. Until he's better, I would try to keep him around 90 degrees all the time. I would ask your vet, that since it's already been a week with no improvement, maybe it's time for antibiotics. Does your vet treat a lot of reptiles? I would soak several times a day at this point. If he has a favorite food, try that. Good luck, and keep us posted.


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## Tom (Nov 3, 2010)

Rob is right on about the coir. I have never seen one single problem with any species of reptile on it.

34 grams is tiny for a 7 month old. Something is off. Either you were told the wrong age or you have a serious case of failure to thrive. Babies can be difficult and a certain percentage just don't make it, despite the best of care. I hope this isn't the case for you.

I'd be talking to whoever you got it from about the age and size. If you were sold a 5 month old that was 34 grams, or smaller, then something was wrong from day one.

We just had a thread with a bunch of people's leopard growth charts on it, but I can't find it now. If you go to this thread and scroll to post #5 you can see Terra's chart. One of hers was failing to thrive, but you can see fairly typical growth and sizes for the other two.
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Growth-pics-of-BB-from-dec-09-hatch-to-today?highlight=growth+charts

From what I can see, it sounds like you are doing everything right and you may just have a little one that can't survive for some reason. Sorry to have to tell you this.

Try posting some pics of him and his enclosure. Maybe we'll see something that can help.


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## coreyc (Nov 3, 2010)

Tom said:


> Rob is right on about the coir. I have never seen one single problem with any species of reptile on it.
> 
> 34 grams is tiny for a 7 month old. Something is off. Either you were told the wrong age or you have a serious case of failure to thrive. Babies can be difficult and a certain percentage just don't make it, despite the best of care. I hope this isn't the case for you.
> 
> ...



My vet said the same thing today about impaction I use cypress mulch she want's me to change it to news paper or reptile carpet I do'nt think so like somebody said they probability do not see many tort's she did not know what a temp gun or a CHE was any body have any problems with cypress?


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## Tom (Nov 3, 2010)

coreyc said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > Rob is right on about the coir. I have never seen one single problem with any species of reptile on it.
> ...



Sadly, for a lot of vets, they just read this stuff on the internet or in an old book and repeat it to their clients. Vets are only human and they only know what they know. They don't spend a whole lot of time on current tortoise husbandry technique in vet school. If they had ever kept a few dozen tortoises on various substrates, they would KNOW what works. But they haven't, so they don't. You know who knows a lot about any given species? The people who have kept lots of them for many years. This forum is full of those kind of people.


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## Seiryu (Nov 3, 2010)

Couple of things I wanted to add.

I had been using coco coir for a full year. I changed it out once.

I recently found PURE cypress mulch (boy was that hard to find). And so far my torts are fine with it. I noticed no change in their behavior. Except they tried tasting it a few times, but what tort doesn't taste everything it can?

The reason I switched was because the coco coir just stuck to them since I kept it very moist and humid. I wanted to try cypress, to see if it worked and so far I love it. Nothing sticks to them, it puts out the same humidity I had before too.

As far as your Leopards weight Tyler. 35 grams is VERY underweight. Knowing that you have had it for 2 months. I am going to say it would be at least 3 months old. But no more than 4 more than likely. This would mean you got it at 1 or 2 months old. Which is pretty rare to get.

What foods have you tried? Do you soak daily? I would soak him twice a day in warm water for 10-15 minutes at a time. Bump up the ambient temps to 80-85 and basking to 95-100.

I am not familiar with nursing a sick tort back to health (just reading things about others experiences). But I think some use baby food, and some even use bird vitamins when they soak.

Maybe you could try Mazuri tortoise diet. And you would soak it in warm water. Make sure it's mooshy and see what happens. Most torts can't resist it. It will not only get some food into him, but since it's moist, will also help to rehydrate the tort.


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## pugsandkids (Nov 3, 2010)

All I have to add is that I use a mix of coir/cypress and have no problems. I hope your little guy gets better soon.


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## scubatyler (Nov 3, 2010)

I have already bumped up the temps and am soaking him 2 times per day. I will switch him back to coir as soon as possible. I think it is very possible that he is younger than 7 months because I chose him out of 5 that were all the same size and from the same clutch. When I got him I could still see a crusty area on the bottom of his shell which was the dried up yolk sack. I don't know at what age this crusty scab-like thing goes away on hatchlings but is is almost completely gone now. He ate like a bottomless pit the first 2 weeks I had him until he suddenly stopped.


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## Tom (Nov 4, 2010)

How was he housed and cared for before you got him? Soaks? Substrate? Humidity? Etc...

As we get more of the picture, it is starting to sound like the typical thing that happens with a lot of hatchlings. What is happening now is likely the result of things that were or weren't done BEFORE you got him.

Really, all that can be done is what you are doing. Just know that this probably isn't your fault.


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## scubatyler (Nov 4, 2010)

Seiryu said:


> scubatyler said:
> 
> 
> > When I first got him I kept a small water dish in his cage that had a ramp so he could easily get in and out. He would go in there every day on his own until he got sick. I took the water out of his cage and started soaking him so I could be 100% sure he was still drinking. I have always used the exoterra mercury vapor bulb for UV light. never a CFL. It is too cold here now to go outside for sun but during the first few weeks I had him i would take him out for about an hour every day when I got home from work. To determine the temps I use a temp gun plus a normal thermometer. I have had him for a little less than 2 months. His weight is staying between 34 grams and 36 grams. I have never measured his length but I would guess around 2 inches. Do you think I should switch back to the coir or stick with the hay for now? The vet said that he has seen too many impaction problems caused by coir.
> ...


Yes, It is a mercury vapor bulb and it is new.


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