# Pine cones?



## FLGirl41 (Jun 1, 2013)

I am bringing home my three adult redfoots today (yay!). Everything is ready in their outdoor enclosure, but one thing I didn't think about until now is pine cones. I can pick them out on a daily basis, but if the torts get a hold of one will they be ok?


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Jun 1, 2013)

Hi FLGirl41. I'm assuming that's "Florida Girl," right? Well, I doubt a forb-, fruit-, and meat-eating redfoot tortoise from tropical forests and savannas would take any interest in the hard cones of temperate coniferous trees. Especially since gopher tortoises, which are native to Florida and feed on forbs and grasses, aren't interested in pine cones, either.


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## FLGirl41 (Jun 1, 2013)

Ok thanks. I didn't think they would want to eat them but might test them out and chomp on them a bit. I have been feverishly trying to identify every plant in that area of the yard and determine if it's toxic. I just never thought about the pine cones until now.  Last minute jitters, I guess!


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Jun 1, 2013)

FLGirl41 said:


> Ok thanks. I didn't think they would want to eat them but might test them out and chomp on them a bit. I have been feverishly trying to identify every plant in that area of the yard and determine if it's toxic. I just never thought about the pine cones until now.  Last minute jitters, I guess!



I think people can go overboard with plant toxicity. I mean, if you are chopping up plants and putting them into a salad, then yes, you have to know whether the plants are safe or not, because in that situation, your tortoise will have a hard time avoiding something he doesn't want while trying to eat something he does.

However, if you're just talking about plants growing in the environment, then I really think people worry about it too much. Herbivores seem to be able to smell toxic compounds in plants, and unless they're really hungry, they usually avoid them. Actually, tortoises and box turtles sometimes seek out certain plants and mushrooms that could kill a mammal, but seem to be harmless to them, or even beneficial in helping eradicate parasite infestations.

Your redfoot is likely to look for the kinds of foods it evolved to eat: leafy greens, cacti, brightly colored fruits, invertebrates, and carrion (meat from carcasses). If he comes across something alien to him, he probably won't be interested in it. The thing to watch out for is pesticides and herbicides. People have been producing these chemicals for less than a century, so they have not been around long enough for herbivores to coevolve with them. Animals cannot smell or taste them, or if they can, they seem not to realize they're bad, and might even think they're good. So, that's where you have to step in and let your human brain take over for their nose.


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## JoesMum (Jun 1, 2013)

I agree with GBT. Torts survive in the wild with lots if toxic plants. Usually the smell, or failing that a tiny taste, is enough to put them off.

If the toxic plant is picked and presented as food to captive torts, something could get eaten wrongly.

Outdoors they ignore the bad stuff. Joe has managed to make the right choices over the decades despite there being all sorts of toxic weeds in our garden. He'd rather eat dandelions, bindweed, clematis and my newly planted sedums ()


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## FLGirl41 (Jun 1, 2013)

Thank you both! This sets my mind at ease.


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## Tom (Jun 1, 2013)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> I think people can go overboard with plant toxicity.
> 
> However, if you're just talking about plants growing in the environment, then I really think people worry about it too much.



I think you are wrong about this. In SOME situations SOME of the time you are absolutely correct and tortoises will do the right things that have allowed them to survive out in the world for all these millions of years. However, in our artificial captive environments, with our artificial temps, with our grocery store lettuce diets, etc..., I have personally seen tortoises eat things they shouldn't be trying to eat. I think it is a mistake to suggest to people to just not worry about toxic plants in their tortoises enclosure because YOUR tortoises in YOUR enclosure haven't eaten any of the bad stuff yet.

FLGirl, I have pinecones that fall into my enclosures with mu sulcatas and leopards and they don't mess with them at all. I don't think pine cones will be an issue, based on my experience. Other toxic plants, will probably be okay, but in some at least in some instances, they are not okay.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Jun 1, 2013)

Tom said:


> I think you are wrong about this. In SOME situations SOME of the time you are absolutely correct and tortoises will do the right things that have allowed them to survive out in the world for all these millions of years. However, in our artificial captive environments, with our artificial temps, with our grocery store lettuce diets, etc..., I have personally seen tortoises eat things they shouldn't be trying to eat. I think it is a mistake to suggest to people to just not worry about toxic plants in their tortoises enclosure because YOUR tortoises in YOUR enclosure haven't eaten any of the bad stuff yet.
> 
> FLGirl, I have pinecones that fall into my enclosures with mu sulcatas and leopards and they don't mess with them at all. I don't think pine cones will be an issue, based on my experience. Other toxic plants, will probably be okay, but in some at least in some instances, they are not okay.



LOL ... I knew this would start a debate.  I'm not suggesting nonchalance, but my box turtles, redfoot, and Russians have never eaten anything poisonous when they were foraging outside under semi-natural conditions. Tom, when you've seen tortoises eat things they shouldn't, under what circumstances did that happen?

BTW - In addition to artificial chemicals like pesticides and herbicides, I forgot to mention one more thing: plastics. I actually did have to yank a red piece of plastic out of my tortoise's mouth once. She probably thought it was a fruit, because they don't understand what plastics are.

Another questionable is poop. Although tortoises do naturally eat other animals' feces in the wild to help round out their diet, it's not necessary in captivity and should be avoided to prevent parasitic infestation.


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## Tom (Jun 1, 2013)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> LOL ... I knew this would start a debate.  I'm not suggesting nonchalance, but my box turtles, redfoot, and Russians have never eaten anything poisonous when they were foraging outside under semi-natural conditions. Tom, when you've seen tortoises eat things they shouldn't, under what circumstances did that happen?
> 
> BTW - In addition to artificial chemicals like pesticides and herbicides, I forgot to mention one more thing: plastics. I actually did have to yank a red piece of plastic out of my tortoise's mouth once. She probably thought it was a fruit, because they don't understand what plastics are.
> 
> Another questionable is poop. Although tortoises do naturally eat other animals' feces in the wild to help round out their diet, it's not necessary in captivity and should be avoided to prevent parasitic infestation.




Thank you for clarifying GTT. Now we are in agreement on all points. 

I've seen lots of examples over the years. Here are a couple: Like your red plastic example, I once found an entire mylar Doritos bag in the poop of a 14" sulcata. Never even knew he ate it. I can only assume it blew in from over the wall on a windy day. On another day, I had to grab my tortoise by the head and physically remove oleander from its mouth. My tortoises lived in their own enclosure far from the oleander bush area in my neighbors yard on the other side of the block wall that divided our yards. Mind you, back in those days, I was still following the "feed them light and only 'natural' foods to prevent pyramiding", and so my tortoises were "unnaturally" hungry. They had completely eaten their large pen down to nothing but dirt, but I would periodically put them on the grass to let them graze on the grass and weeds. On this particular day, sometime after I put them on the grass and went back in the house my neighbor decided to come out and trim back his oleander bushes. Well if you know sulcatas, you know they immediately are attracted to any sort of human activity, so Scooter bee-lined it right over to where he saw my neighbor moving around on the other side of the wall. Some of the trimmed leaves fell into my yard and Scooter was running for them as they were falling. By the time I got to him one leaf was already half way swallowed. I grabbed his head, so he couldn't retract and pulled that leaf right out of his mouth. Would he have eaten the whole pile? I don't know. Might he have eventually tasted the leaf and spat it out? Maybe. He is one of those scarf it down type of tortoises that just swallow things whole. He salivated heavily for a while, so I soaked him to try to flush away any residue, and he seemed fine after that.

Same tortoise years later lives in a huge weedy grassy outdoor enclosure. Plenty to eat everywhere. Some deadly nightshade somehow pops up in the enclosure (no doubt brought in by the wind) and as far as I know, none of them ever touched it by the time I removed it. They were NOT hungry and could graze their fill on grass and weeds all day every day. Same tortoise. Two different situations. Two different results. I understand why people take the stance that tortoises know best and won't intentionally harm themselves, but my daily job is to keep an assortment of all sorts of animals, including tortoises, from harming themselves. I have seen all sorts of completely unexpected and unnatural behavior in captive animals. This is why I like to caution: Your tortoise will probably not eat toxic plants in most situations, but the safe bet is to remove it, or block access to it, and not take any chances.


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## thatrebecca (Jun 1, 2013)

Another really interesting topic. I've noticed my torts sniffing and studiously avoiding the ficus and ivy leaves that occasionally blow in from the neighbor's yard, but I've also caught them trying to eat stucco and paint chips that blew in from the same house's yard. Mysterious little guys. Either way, I've noticed that when their dish is full of yummy and safe things, they stay away from dubious food items.


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## FLGirl41 (Jun 1, 2013)

Thank you all for your ideas and for sharing personal stories. I agree it's best to be safe rather than sorry. I had already taken out all of the plants that were toxic (in particular, the previous owner of my house planted several Asiatic lilies in that area of the yard, so I dug them up and re-planted them elsewhere).


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