# Petco Russians CB??



## katies (Dec 14, 2010)

Hi All,
Thanks for the many welcomes and great advice! So from my exploration of the forum it looks like consensus is that Petco Russians are likely to be WC even if the store tells you otherwise. Is that true? They are selling Red Foots and Russians at Petco in our area - both are about 4-5 inches and said to be around 5 years old. The employee, who seemed pretty knowledgeable, was very specific that all of their torts were CB. I must say that the Russian did not have a "smooth shell" as I read is seen in WC Russians. Also no obvious bad shell damage. I have to say that they looked pretty happy and active. Both were eating and exploring. I just really do not want to support the WC tortoise trade. Any tips or threads you could point me to to know what to look out for would be appreciated. 

Katie


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## Floof (Dec 14, 2010)

Hi there! Welcome to the forum! I'm sorry I missed your first thread. Nice to see someone not far from my home town, even!!

I've been to the Olympia Petco and seen their Russians, and I can assure you that, every time I've been there, they've been WC torts, no question. Russians have slightly bumpy shells sometimes, even the WCs, so that's not much to go on (unless it's glaring pyramiding, like their Redfoots tend to have). I've also spoken to the reptile lady a number of times, who I'm guessing is the same person you spoke to. Contrary to your experience, she has not once struck me as knowledgeable about the animals. She's of the belief that whatever the wholesalers tell them is true--if the wholesaler labels their Amelanistic/Albino corn snakes as "Red," and their Snow corns as "Albino," then that MUST be what they are, and anyone who disagrees is the one that must be wrong (something I've discussed with her before!). I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same case with the Russians--the wholesaler passes them off as CB, and she takes it as undeniable truth.

I've also seen some very, very sickly animals in that store. A Chinese Water Dragon with MBD and a broken toe--that they didn't notice until it was pointed out, even though there was a BONE sticking out of his foot! Then there are the bearded dragons that always appear incredibly unhealthy... Scrawny, calcium deficient, you name it, they have it. Even the Lacey Petsmart has healthier (albeit younger) dragons. If you look at their ball pythons, most the time they have stuck shed. If you look at the label on the enclosure containing the Crested geckos, it says to keep them with a 90F basking spot... Certain death for the animals, as that is a species that will become ill in anything over 80F.

Unless the store has changed drastically in the 6 months or so since I was last in, it isn't a place you want to buy a live reptile or take advice from.

Just my $.02, and experience with the store in question...


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## dmmj (Dec 14, 2010)

The Rf maybe CB but I am 99% sure that all petco russians are WC, they buy them in bulk from the importers for like 5 or 10 bucks apiece and resell them. Petco does not to the best of my knowledge buy CB russians from breeders simply because they would have to pay to much and that would cut into their profits. You could always take a pic or two but I am pretty sure they are WC. I am not against them selling just lying about it ,or thru ignorance giving out false info.


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## katies (Dec 14, 2010)

Thanks for the info. Figuring out how and where and what type of tortoise to buy for our family is quite difficult! Never thought I would spend so many hours trying to come up with the perfect answer. So my first post resulted in several folks suggesting a Russian, but I am think I am going to have to go a different direction as I am convinced that a hatchling is not a good first tort for us (from TF experts advice), and I can't know that an older Russian is CB. Hopefully we can find a yearling or older Redfoot. Taylor, do you have any suggestions in the Olympia/Portland/Seattle area as to where to purchase a CB tort? I am thinking a reputable breeder online will be our best bet, but I am still trying to figure this out.


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## Floof (Dec 15, 2010)

Your best bet is The House of Reptiles in Tigard. If you're deadset on CB, though, call before you make the trip--I don't think they sell CB, but they're much more likely to be open about the WC/CB status of their animals than any other store. They're the best reptile store in the PNW.

There's also a store in west side Olympia, Wildworld Aquarium & Reptiles on Cooper Point rd. I haven't been in since shortly after they opened 2 years ago, but they were selling tortoises back then. It's close to home, and you may have luck there. As with any store, be skeptical, ask questions, and treat any Russians over 3-4" as WC. The owners seemed pretty knowledgeable when I spoke to them, but back then I was only asking about snakes, so I can't comment on their tortoise knowledge.

Deer Fern Farms is up there, too, and vends at every expo. He only breeds species that can do well in the PNW climate, namely Mediterranean species. According to his website, he just breeds a couple subspecies of Greek and Russians right now, and he had some Marginated hatchlings at the Seattle Metro Reptile expo last March. He also sells some WC animals, though, so be sure to ask about the WC/CB status of whatever tortoises you consider buying from him and look for signs of them being WC--shell damage, rough appearance, that sort of thing. The next expo will be down in Portland in January, then there'll be one in Renton, at the end of April. http://pdxreptileexpo.com/

The most reliable way to go, yes, would be to order from a reputable breeder online. Looking at TFO's For Sale section is a good place to start.


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## Balboa (Dec 15, 2010)

I have no way to confirm it, but I suspect most of the redfoots and russians on the market are "ranch" raised. 

To the best of my understanding on it, they're caught as babies and raised until marketable (4 plus inches).

I guess this is a "workaround" to calling them wild-caught. Now they're captive raised, but not captive bred.


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## GBtortoises (Dec 16, 2010)

The Russians are purely wild caught, not "ranch raised". Many of the Redfoots are "ranch raised", not necessarily captive born. There are two things going on with the Redfoots. Some are collected when small and "power raised" to make the 4" mark in order to be sold retail in the U.S. The other thing going is adult females are collected from the wild while gravid and held until they deposit the eggs in captive conditions. 

You're right, it's all about word play. Captive raised, etc... Even "captive bred" can be misleading. Many dealers use that term very loosely. Even "captive born" can mean from wild caught eggs whose offspring are simply incubated and born into captivity as with the case of some of the Redfoots. It looks like nowadays the only truly accurate term may be: "captive bred and born".


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