# Any greens choices high in calcium AND low in oxalates???



## Balboa

Ok, we all know the standard "weed" diet in some form or another to feed our torts. Its supposed to be the "ideal"

it usually goes something like Dandelion, Plantain, Turnip Greens, Collard Greens, etc etc etc with a few adds or subtracts.

I've heard Collard Greens poo-poo'd before, too high in oxalates.

Then I learned today the tort super food dandelions needs to be limited because of oxalates. (thanks Danny)

Turns out Turnip Greens have oxalates too.

http://russiantortoise.org/nutritional_analysis_of_kale.htm

As this link points out, dandelions have twice the oxalates of kale, which is on many avoid lists for too much oxalates.

It looks to me like Calcium in plants goes hand in hand with oxalates.

Good nutritional information is hard to find in one place (and often is questionable, as to different growing conditions, misstakes, etc)

Remember growing up how we needed to eat our spinach for iron?

http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/infosph...-created-a-myth-and-a-cartoon-character-10166

I learned to love spinach as an adult, but boy I hated that slop out of the can like Pop-eye ate.

Now so far it looks like Plantain is still safe and healthy to feed, I can't get that at the grocer though. I don't believe it is known for high calcium though either.

The remaining greens I know of as safe and high in calcium are grape leaves and hibiscus. Are these actually high in oxalates too? Something else bad?

Of course I'm aware that there is some discussion as to whether or not oxalates are even harmful at all to a healthy tortoise, and they MAY be able to better utilize this calcium source than we are. I do however like to stack the cards when I can when gambling on health.

Is there any truly, 100% safe green to feed our torts in high quantities for lots of calcium?

(maybe this should be debatables, but I'm not really looking for debates, just ideas from people that know more than I do about nutrition)

Thanks!


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## Kristina

Optunia  

No, I don't advocate a "staple" green at all. This is why it is necessary to have a VARIED diet. There is no one particular superfood. 

I would elaborate more but I am really tired and about ready to go home. I have spent years and years studying the nutritional breakdowns of various fruits, veggies and greens. I do have some charts that might help you get a visual.

http://tortnet.darchorizons.com/nutrition.html


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## Madkins007

Oxalate ratings vary by the tests used- what part of the plant and how processed. 

Food item (100g)- Calcium level (mg)- Oxalates

Cactus fruit - 452 - no numbers found
Turnip Greens- 190 - 0.05
Dandelion Greens (not Chickory) - 187 - 0.02 (the stem with the white juice is very high in oxalates)
Green Beans - 170 - 0.02
Kelp - 168 - no numbers found
Cactus Pads - 164 - no numbers found
Collards - 145 - 0.07
Parsley - 138 - 0.10 (0.70 in some scales)
Kale - 135 - 0.02
Watercress - 120 - 0.02
Bok Choy - 105 - 0.02
Mustard Greens- 101 - 0.01
Chickory (often sold as Dandelion) - 100 - 0.21
Spinach - 99 - 0.61

I don't worry a lot about oxalates- there is very little clinical evidence they make as much difference as some claim although I try to avoid levels over about .7ish, and limit over about .5ish. 

There is also something about the effects of vitamin A moderating the effects of oxylic acid, but I don't remember the details.


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## pdrobber

of course varied is good, but I've been wondering, I usually will just buy one head of romaine, or a bunch of collards or a bunch of kale, or a box of spring mix. do you think it's ok to give JUST one for about a week at a time and then switch? I find that trying to have a green and spring mix, giving them both, they don't go quickly enough and then go bad before I (Tori) finish(es) them...


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## egyptiandan

I totally agree  No one thing should be relied on to feed your tortoise. Variety is the key to nutrition. You also don't need to give that variety every day. It's perfectly fine to feed just one thing each day. That way you know exactly what they are eating and how often. If your feeding a mixed salad, you don't know how much of which thing your tortoise is eating. Say you were being good and making a salad with Romaine, Dandelion, Opuntia, Plantains and Pansy flowers. Say you did this every day for a week. You are feeding a variety, but your tortoise may just be mostly eating the Dandelion out of the mix. So actually your feeding Dandelion 7 days and not actually a varied diet. This is where the problem comes in with feeding foods with oxalic acid, i.e. feeding it in a salad every day.
You can also make any green a super calcium food. Just put your cut up greens in a ziploc bag and shake with a calcium supplement. The greens will be nicely coated and will have the calcium content everyone is looking for. 

Danny

The only study I've seen (it was for humans) that tried to limit the uptake of oxalic acid in the body. They found that taking a load of calcium before eating foods with oxalic acid in them prevent the body from absorbing the oxalic acid. This though makes more calcium oxalates, which seems to be easily passed by humans but tends to be stored in the bladder of reptiles.

Danny


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## Maggie Cummings

Bob is 12 years old now and I have had him since he was 5. I have made dandelions a diet staple and I don't see anything bad happening to him. He is so well hydrated that his urine is clear without even creamy urates. I don't like, so I avoid feeding dandelions to the smaller/younger tortoises due to the stem in the middle that they seem to have so much trouble breaking off. But I feed a variety with Spring Mix as the basis and I add different greens to that, and radicchio, I always add that. So I suppose that doesn't help you at all, but what I know is that I feed as wide a variety as I can and I don't much ever have my own personal animals get sick with anything I can blame on diet...
I get animals turned in to me regularly that have diet related problems...


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## Balboa

Hehe, thanks Kristina, and knew you'd have some input 

I agree, and in reality I'm all about the variety as well, but when it turns out that ALL of the options are high in oxalates, its frustrating. It would be nice to have one that can be included more often than others.

Maybe I'll start growing some opuntia as well. Wasn't there some problem with that stuff too though? lol

Thanks for the chart, it does however highlight some of the problems I mentioned with all this.
Your chart says:
Turnip Greens = 50 mg
Kale = 20 mg
Watercress= 310 mg

Which is very different from the info from RussianTortoise.org
Turnip Greens = 14.6 mg
Kale = 13 mg
Watercress = 10 mg

I'm not saying who's right or wrong. It really does point to doing exactly what you say, variety over all, but it also makes me say ignore any suggestions and avoid nothing. Feed them everything in the grocery isle. (Well ideally I'd like to do that over the course of a year, but lets face it, staples of known goods are "easier" to focus on, as opposed to trying to pay attention to what your tortoises have or have not had over the course of a year)

One thing I learned in some reading on oxalates, is usually they are more predominant in younger plant parts than older. Perhaps rather than nice, tender, young greens we need to focus on getting old, tough, over-ripe greens.

WOW 4 responses while I was typing a response to Kristina, thanks guys!.


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## Kristina

Balboa said:


> Thanks for the chart, it does however highlight some of the problems I mentioned with all this.
> Your chart says:
> Turnip Greens = 50 mg
> Kale = 20 mg
> Watercress= 310 mg
> 
> Which is very different from the info from RussianTortoise.org
> Turnip Greens = 14.6 mg
> Kale = 13 mg
> Watercress = 10 mg
> 
> I'm not saying who's right or wrong. It really does point to doing exactly what you say, variety over all, but it also makes me say ignore any suggestions and avoid nothing. *Feed them everything in the grocery isle.* (I totally, totally do!!!!)  (Well ideally I'd like to do that over the course of a year, but lets face it, staples of known goods are "easier" to focus on, as opposed to trying to pay attention to what your tortoises have or have not had over the course of a year)
> 
> One thing I learned in some reading on oxalates, is usually they are more predominant in younger plant parts than older. Perhaps rather than nice, tender, young greens we need to focus on getting old, tough, over-ripe greens.



All of my nutritional analysis came directly from the USDA. That is all I can tell you about that. But again, tests are not only variable based on the test itself, the part of the plant, but also the GENETICS of the plant! There is no 100%, set in stone set of values for any one given food item.

What you are losing sight of is that a plant does not have to be both low in oxalates and high in calcium. Why not? Because you can FEED TWO DIFFERENT PLANTS. Find one that is low in oxalates, and rotate it with one that is high in calcium. Simple  Or, dust the plant that is high in oxalates with calcium powder.




pdrobber said:


> of course varied is good, but I've been wondering, I usually will just buy one head of romaine, or a bunch of collards or a bunch of kale, or a box of spring mix. do you think it's ok to give JUST one for about a week at a time and then switch? I find that trying to have a green and spring mix, giving them both, they don't go quickly enough and then go bad before I (Tori) finish(es) them...



In my opinion, this is not only fine, but the best way to do it. 

I wrote an article on this, and instead of retype all the information I am just going to post the link -

Nutritional Considerations for Tortoises - The "Balanced" Diet Revealed.


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## Balboa

In different ideas bounced back and forth before between me and mark, I came to look at grape leaves as a "super" food. Unfortunatly, I have no local grocers carrying them. I will be planting grapes this spring.

Now where is the grape leaf's achilles heal? I have yet to see it noted for Oxalates. Hibiscus as well. May be there though, just not noted anywhere.

If I refocus my thought process here a little bit.... Variety is only good if there is actual variety TO the variety. If two plant leaves have exactly the same ingredients what does it matter that they taste/look different? It looks more and more like the typical "variety" of greens I feed yields no useful variety at all. (well sure, there are likely slightly varied levels of other minerals and vitamins, but they all usually have ballpark similair nutritional values averaged out over different lists).

A better Variety may be more like, 1 week grape leaves, 1 week plantain, 1 week opuntia, 1 week mushrooms, 1 week oxalate greens, 1 week hibiscus, 1 week vegies (carrots, beans, etc), and on and on.

I know, maybe I'm overthinking this, but I'm discovering my "staple" varieties I strive to provide aren't much of a variety at all, now are they? frustrating.


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## bettinge

Madkins007 said:


> Oxalate ratings vary by the tests used- what part of the plant and how processed.
> 
> Food item (100g)- Calcium level (mg)- Oxalates
> 
> Cactus fruit - 452 - no numbers found
> Turnip Greens- 190 - 0.05
> Dandelion Greens (not Chickory) - 187 - 0.02 (the stem with the white juice is very high in oxalates)
> Green Beans - 170 - 0.02
> Kelp - 168 - no numbers found
> Cactus Pads - 164 - no numbers found
> Collards - 145 - 0.07
> Parsley - 138 - 0.10 (0.70 in some scales)
> Kale - 135 - 0.02
> Watercress - 120 - 0.02
> Bok Choy - 105 - 0.02
> Mustard Greens- 101 - 0.01
> Chickory (often sold as Dandelion) - 100 - 0.21
> Spinach - 99 - 0.61
> 
> I don't worry a lot about oxalates- there is very little clinical evidence they make as much difference as some claim although I try to avoid levels over about .7ish, and limit over about .5ish.
> 
> There is also something about the effects of vitamin A moderating the effects of oxylic acid, but I don't remember the details.



Enough is enough Madkins! If I keep printing all your good food and Nutritional information and tacking it to my office walls, I'm gonna need a bigger office. A bigger office means room for more torts.


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## SILVERSTAR

why is the cactus fruit the highest in sumthing,i dont know wut its high in but its like 452? wuts that all about?


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## Balboa

That's calcium to oxalates, silverstar.

More and more I'm reading, I'm starting to say toss it all to the wind, dietary guides are useless.

Turns out Cactus (opuntia) may not be a great source of calcium either. Its considered not bio-available because its tied up as, guess what? calcium oxalates. I think that's where much of the confusion stems from.

How much of each does the plant contain?
Calcium
Oxalates
Calcium Oxalate Crystals

Turns out no plants likely contain high "bio-available" calcium, because that's essentially toxic to the plant (interferes with cell function). Plants form the oxalates to store the excess calcium. This means that chances are, any plant capable of being high in calcium, is also likely high in oxalates. The ratio will be established by how its grown. Calcium poor soil yields high oxalates, calcium rich soil yields high calcium oxalates.

really need to talk with a botanist/biologist/horticulturalist or the like about this lol.

so forget everything we've been told about nutrition (except Kristina's variety) and shop for tort food blind folded. Just throw a dart in the grocery store and wherever it lands, bring that home. (I guess if it lands on a person, that's protein week)


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## SILVERSTAR

lol,lol, well not to be off topic but if that cactus fruit is that high in calcium crystals i may have jus found my problem cus for the past id say week and a half hes been piggn out on that stuff which i was told was ok to feed jus prolly not as much as i have been.could be why my tortoise had urate stones,ya think,i didnt realize that fruit was that powerful,i think from not on ill jus give it as occasional treat,also hes addicted to it,its all he looks for,i think its detox time lol.


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## Torty Mom

I was under the assumption that green beans were NOT good to feed? They are just a tad different than dandelion.

Does anyone feed their CDT's green beans? 

Lisa's Tort Elliott LOVES green beans, but she was NOT going to feed them anymore as she had heard they were bad for him!


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## SILVERSTAR

i heard the same thing about green beans but also i read sumwhere about star tortoises gettn mangled but farm equipment in indias long bean fields and about farmers treating the tortoises like nusances over there cuz they were eatn the crop,the farmers killed tortoises over it,i swear i read that sumwhere an it stuck in my head,prolly a stab in the dark as to wether or not torts eat beans.


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## Balboa

I believe the trouble with beans (and all legumes) is considered the high protein content. Protein has been blamed as the cause of pyramiding for a long time (something now being refuted).

Too much protein could be harmful however, as it can lead to gout and renal problems. 

I'd say beans should be a part of the diet, but probably a very small part. Like Kristina says, some of EVERYTHING.


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## dmmj

I have used grape leaves now for almost ten years as a staple in my tort's diet. But I usually feed a variety, and yes I use dandelions heavily since I grow my own and found a steady supply of it nearby.


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## SILVERSTAR

Ive heard the grape leaves thing quite a few times,is there a certain kind i should buy?


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## Torty Mom

Silverstar do you grow any of your own stuff?


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## dmmj

I have 3 grape plants, a Thompson seedless, Merlot, and a red fiery grape plant.


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## Madkins007

egyptiandan said:


> (snip)Say you were being good and making a salad with Romaine, Dandelion, Opuntia, Plantains and Pansy flowers. Say you did this every day for a week. You are feeding a variety, but your tortoise may just be mostly eating the Dandelion out of the mix. So actually your feeding Dandelion 7 days and not actually a varied diet. This is where the problem comes in with feeding foods with oxalic acid, i.e. feeding it in a salad every day.
> 
> Danny



LOL! I know what you are saying, but I rarely have that problem. Mine usually eat down to the plate!

I can also go ya one better on the superfood- I ground up some Timothy hay cubes for rabbits into coarse fibers, then shook that with the calcium powder and a crushed multivitamin, and offer a decent pinch on each salad. Fiber and calcium. Now I just have to get some vitamin D drops!



Torty Mom said:


> I was under the assumption that green beans were NOT good to feed? They are just a tad different than dandelion.
> 
> Does anyone feed their CDT's green beans?
> 
> Lisa's Tort Elliott LOVES green beans, but she was NOT going to feed them anymore as she had heard they were bad for him!



Green beans are the immature beans and you are feeding the pad as well, so they are not quite as 'beany' as other legumes. In fact, 100g of gren beans and snap peas only have about 2g of protein in them compared to the 35g in peas (which have little calcium and a terrible ratio.)


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## Madkins007

Reptiles need a certain amount of calcium a day- the best estimate is 1.8 to 3mg of calcium in every Calorie (or kilocalorie) we feed them (Mader, "Reptile Medicine and Surgery). As with most other nutrients, going too high or low past the 'golden zone' can be harmful.

I will be the first to admit that a dosage of 1.8 to 3mg/kcal is a pain in the neck, but lets see if we can figure this out. 

The calorie target for an inactive reptile is weight in kilograms to the 0.75th power, times 32 (or WTkg^0.75 x 32 = BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate) (Also from Mader). We generally give them 1.5 to 2 times the BMR for an active or growing animal.

So... in the chart to follow, we will have the weight, the BMRx2, and the target dose of calcium (I'm using 2.25mg/kcal as a mid-range target).

Weight - BMRx2 - Calcium dose (mg)
100g/4oz - 12 - 28.5mg
500g/1lb - 16 - 36mg
1kg/2lb - 54 - 121mg
5kg/11lb - 214 - 452mg

This is a lot of guessing, but I think it shows a pretty realistic picture. 100g (about 3.5 ounces, or about 2 cups) of Turnip Greens (170mg/100g of food) has more calcium than a 2lb tortoise needs in a day... assuming the greens actually have that much available calcium in them. On the other hand, a full 100g of Boston lettuce is only 35mg/100g of food. Will your 2lb tortoise eat 8 full cups of lettuce?

This is beginning to sound like a bad cereal commercial, sorry! Lets make this simpler.

In the Tortoise Library diet page, I offer a simplified list of great, good, and OK foods, based in the nutritional levels. I suggest offering 2 kinds of greens and a fruit (for tortoises) a week- combining either 2 goods, or a great and an OK. You can alternate by week if you want, I just prefer a little more variety during the week. This should keep you in the ballpark with calcium... especially if you add a pinch of supplement once in a while. (1 good 'pinch' is about 1/16th of a teaspoon and a whopping 360 milligrams, so don't overdo it!)

Remember the article on vitamin D dosages? That dosage of D will metabolize the amount of calcium listed above. If you throw a LOT more calcium at the animal, the excess will screw up the system- even if you boost the vitamin D to compensate.

Or, to put it as simply as I can, it is about a BALANCED, varied diet. Don't toss the charts quite yet, Balboa!


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## Balboa

Snip



Madkins007 said:


> Or, to put it as simply as I can, it is about a BALANCED, varied diet. Don't toss the charts quite yet, Balboa!



LOL thanks Mark. It actually amazes me that I haven't gotten that exact yet. A good scale for my torts has been on my shopping list for too long now.

The trouble as I see it, is, as you know we have no way of truly knowing how much bio-available calcium there is in anything we feed the torts. It almost seems to me I should count on near zero calcium in the diet and suplement accordingly, but then I worry about over doing the calcium and getting stones like Mary Ann is dealing with.

I wonder how tough it is to measure the calcium and oxalate content of food, if it could be done on an occasional sampling basis at home. Time for more research, and maybe contacting a doctor of chemistry friend of mine, LOL

I plan on growing alot of my own tortoise food at home this spring, and I will amend the soil accordingly, but that does little to help the "average" keeper.


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## Missy

I think we are forgetting about grass/hay. I feed 80% grass/hay and 20% of other greens/weeds. I also use grape leaves and cactus but not so much in the winter. If it were not for hay and Mazuri my torts would cost me $$$ in winter. I scrape cuttlebone over moist greens 2-3 times a week and leave one in the pens so they can help themselves. This post has lots of great info but so much that it makes my head spin,LOL. Maybe someday someone will figure it all out.


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## Balboa

Grass and hay is a very good point, and I really never have looked into it, but I believe grasses are considered low in oxalates (and calcium for that matter). 

This would imply that what I'm talking about is a lesser issue to grassland species.

My trouble is that I keep redfoots, so grasses are a very small part of their diet and it looks to me like the primary part of their diet may be too high in calcium and/or oxalates. I may just need to start feeding them more grass, if I can get them to take it.


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## Madkins007

Balboa said:


> Snip
> 
> 
> 
> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or, to put it as simply as I can, it is about a BALANCED, varied diet. Don't toss the charts quite yet, Balboa!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL thanks Mark. It actually amazes me that I haven't gotten that exact yet. A good scale for my torts has been on my shopping list for too long now.
> 
> The trouble as I see it, is, as you know we have no way of truly knowing how much bio-available calcium there is in anything we feed the torts. It almost seems to me I should count on near zero calcium in the diet and suplement accordingly, but then I worry about over doing the calcium and getting stones like Mary Ann is dealing with.
> 
> I wonder how tough it is to measure the calcium and oxalate content of food, if it could be done on an occasional sampling basis at home. Time for more research, and maybe contacting a doctor of chemistry friend of mine, LOL
> 
> I plan on growing alot of my own tortoise food at home this spring, and I will amend the soil accordingly, but that does little to help the "average" keeper.
Click to expand...


Yeah, but you also need to remember that people have kept AND BRED Red-foots for a lot of generations on diets worse than we are discussing. this is, as we have discussed before, a species that specializes in maximizing bad food options. Balance, young Jedi (or, for us old Kung Fu fans, 'Grasshopper').

MY ideal goal would be to find a way to tag or identify food options to make a shopper-friendly formula- like the points system of Weight Watchers or something.


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## Balboa

Ahhh sensei,

but we can always strive to acheive better


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## Tom

I've been studying all this stuff since the late 80's. It is still the same contradictory, confusing info. I feed a variety of all of the above. I grow a lot of my own stuff and harvest whatever else I can throughout the year. Some of my favorites: Grape leaves, opuntia fruit and pads, whatever weeds and wild grasses are sprouting, mulberry leaves and roses.

I've been using spring mix lately for my horde of babies, but I'm really not a fan of most grocery store stuff. I use it to round out the other stuff and add some variety.


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## SILVERSTAR

YES TORTY MOM I DO,i grow opuntia cactus(3varietys)hibiscus(california variety)alfalfa,wheatgrass,pumkin plants,echavaria,i think thats about it at the moment.


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## Madkins007

We were eating a 'big salad' for supper and I got to thinking about this thread. You know most of the stuff applies to human food as well- and yet very few doctors or nutritionists would suggest avoiding oxalates, like spinach, even for calcium-starved pregnant women. 

In fact, I would bet most of the people here never heard of oxalates, goiterogenic compounds, purines, etc. before they got into feeding reptiles, then it suddenly becomes this magical, complicated stuff.


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## Balboa

True! but Kidney stones are quite common

http://www.bing.com/health/article/mayo-125674/Kidney-stones?q=kidney+stones&qpvt=kidney+stones

Its just that we can talk about what we're feeling. Torts have a tougher time with that 

I originally started to post this info in the Uric Acid thread, but decided to post it here instead.

For Prevention of Kidney Stones in Humans, according to the Mayo Clinic:

1. DRINK LOTS OF WATER (sound familiar, huh, I'm as guilty as any tort on this one)
2. Eat Fewer Oxalate rich foods. (too bad most of those are "really good for us")
3. Choose a diet low in salt and ANIMAL PROTEIN
4. Continue eating calcium-rich foods, but use caution with calcium supplements. 

They've linked an increase risk of stones to calcium supplements. hmmmmmm.
There was also a note in there about vitamin D rich diets inducing stones. 

This all sounds very familiar.
Dang its a wonder I don't have stones (knock on wood), and it'd be a wonder if I'm not giving them to my torts.


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## Tom

All these things are valid points and valid concerns. However, for twenty years, I've fed all my torts of various species all the things mentioned above and had zero problems. Well, except for pyramiding, but I think we can finally say that has little, if anything, to do with diet.

I worry that info like this thread will confuse and bewilder anyone with less experience than an "expert". I found it very difficult to wade through this kind of thing when I was starting out. I usually just took the advice of someone who had been doing it successfully for many years and followed their example.

FOR THE NEWBIES: 1. Just feed a wide variety of ALL the stuff mentioned here in this thread. 2. Get them in the sun as much as possible, or under a MVB, if you have frozen winters. 3. Hydrate them well. I like daily soaks for babies, and several times a week for juvies. Also keep a shallow water bowl available at all times, even for "desert" species.


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## John

This can be very confusing but I find it interesting,the info on this forum has helped me look at things a liitle closer,I've even adjusted my iguanas diet although my other two are very healthy in their old age. one thing caught my eye mushrooms how do they fit into a leopard torts diet,also moss or algae? one of my leopards will always go too the rocks under the down spout and eat the algae off them when their in the yard,the other two have not done this,not sure if i should let him eat it or not?


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## jensgotfaith

While this thread has been an interesting read, I find myself asking the question-how likely would it be for the tortoise to be out in the wild and walk by a food source and think "Hmm, I'm pretty sure this one is high in oxalates, I should go find something else that's higher in calcium."? Probably not likely. I agree with Tom. Feed a wide variety, lots of sun, keep the babies hot, humid, and hydrated, and soak often. It's what I've been doing with my little one and I can see the growth in him since I got him and I can also see that the new growth is coming in smoother. Right now, sunshine is an issue because it's been raining so much. And even when it's been sunny, it's been too cold to take such a little one out.


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## Balboa

Tom said:


> I worry that info like this thread will confuse and bewilder anyone with less experience than an "expert". I found it very difficult to wade through this kind of thing when I was starting out. I usually just took the advice of someone who had been doing it successfully for many years and followed their example.



Wow Tom,
Maybe I need to start putting a disclaimer on certain threads.

"Experimental Hypothesizing and Thinking, Experts Only, Proceed With Caution"

I have to admit, this post did raise my hackles a bit, something I'm sure you didn't intend.

I believe its in my nature to prefer to think for myself, and look into the whys of everything we do. 

"Just do it this way, because we say so" has never sat well with me, my Mom learned this early on, and recently disclosed this to me actually. She learned that even as a small child, if she explained to me calmly in a logical manner why I should or should not do something, my rebellion ended and I would calmly go along.

I need to realize I'm not normal in this regard. Most people want to be spoon fed and led like sheep. Easy answers, simple programs, right or wrong, black and white.

This is absolutely alien to me, and frankly makes my stomach turn. THINK FOR YOURSELVES DAMNIT ALL YOU LITTLE ROBOTS! lol

Tom, you've stated many times that following the experts all those years (at least for your sullies) was a misstake. Keep them dry, feed them little, is what they told you. You've figured out better now, and you did this by thinking for yourself.

Really I think that is the key to all this, HYDRATION. What we feed them matters little, as long as they are hydrated and can flush the excess from their bodies.

I'm also an extroverted thinker, and use this forum to help me flesh out ideas. This thread helped ME figure out that there is no such thing as a high calcium plant without oxalates and get it through my thick skull. The experts may have all known that already, but nobody stated that in a way that really got through to this sheep.

My apologies to anyone led astray by this thread.

Jenni and John, that is another area of debate. Mark has raised the question of "nutritional wisdom" in torts. Personally I am of the opinion that if presented with numerous options tortoises will tend to pick out what they need. Captivity can sometimes upset this as they become "addicted" to favorites, like a child to candy. There is no doubt in my mind that they can smell the nutrients, toxins, anti-nutrients or whatever in a leaf. Early on I didn't have dandelion ID down well, and included leaves from groundsel in with the dandelions. Rocky ate the dandelion and left the groundsel.

I really have no other explanation for why Rocky devoured her cuttlebone early on, but now only leaves it for an occasional nibble. Back then she showed a preference for "high calcium" greens and would literally gnaw on her cuttlebone to the point that I became concerned about her over wearing her beak. Nowadays she's backed off on that and eats a wider variety of greens as well.

Many other keepers have found that they can't trust their torts, and have to focus on an exclusive rotational diet to ensure adequate variety.


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## jensgotfaith

Balboa- I COMPLETELY agree with your mom and how she'd explain things to you. It's exactly how my husband and I are raising our kids. I know torts in the wild pick an choose whaqt they want to eat and maybe from experience know what to choose and when. You absolutely have to think for yourself and be your own advocate. I learned this with my medical insurance for myself and my kids. Kaiser learned real quick that I could be a nasty thorn in their side. For example, when my daughter was first born and I took her in for her first shots, they wanted me to place her on a hard, cold, crinkly paper covered table so they could hold her down while they gave her the shots. I told them absolutely not. I would be holding her while they did the shots. They raised a stink and I held my ground. She was so tiny, there was no way I was not going to hold her. What I ended up doing was googling immunizations and found a professor in Michigan who had completed a study about the very issue of holding your child while they receive their shots. It completely verified everything I had told Kaiser. Kaiser's response at the time was "this is how it's always been done.". I called the professor and she sent me a complete copy of the study. I took it to Kinko's and ran off copies. The next time I had to take my daughter in for immunizations, I went prepared with several copies and handed them out. I basically told them that if I wasn't allowed to hold her, we'd change insurance to a company who actually put the patient first. Since then I think they must have flagged my family's file, because I never had another problem with my daughter and immunizations. When my son was born and only had to merely mention my stand and immediately they backed down and agreed. 
So anyway, yes think for yourself. I can't go by what the "books" say, I'd much rather go by those who have experience with it and raising torts. There are so many on here that I trust. Yvonne, Maggie, Tom, Dean, just to mention a few.


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## Madkins007

This is my nickel's worth...

1. We have a decent diet we can offer most common pet tortoises, mostly based on balance, variety, and proper offerings. We know this diet is reasonably effective at raising reasonably healthy torts, although in general we are not getting the longevity we would like to see if we were doing things perfectly.

2. The fact that we have a decent diet plan should not keep anyone interested in tortoise nutrition from working to improve it. That is how someone figured up that Chacos need cacti (and I am wondering if maybe Cherry-heads and Southern Red-foots do as well??)

3. Maybe we need a 'Theoretical Discussions' thread to post stuff like this in with a different tone than the Debatable Topics thread? At the very least, we should think about mentioning in our initial posts that this is based on research, experience, theory, or what more often. I know I am guilty of this a lot.


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## Tom

Balboa, You are right. I certainly meant no offense. My point is that if someone like Mark or me or you cannot wade through all this conflicting info and come up with sound, practical answers, then how is a brand new person supposed to? I think its pretty obvious that I think for myself too, as you noted, I just want noobs to have a basic easy to understand plan to follow while they are sussing things out and thinking for themselves too.

Mark, I had not heard any complaints about a lack of longevity. Where are you getting the idea that our current torts are not living as long as they should? From where I'm sitting, it seems like my children's children might not have the answer to this before they die of old age. Even with all the pyramiding, dehydration and diet fallacies over the last 20 years, it still seems like they are all surviving for decades and still going strong...


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## Kristina

I understand where Tom is coming from, and he did not mean to insult.

I firmly believe that figuring out the "whys" when it comes to tortoise keeping is very important. But what you have to understand is that for a new keeper, TOO much information is overwhelming. Look at it this way-

You go to the pet store, and you buy this cute little 2" tortoise that the petstore tells you is a GREAT pet. They sell you a 20 gallon aquarium, a coil UV bulb, some rabbit pellets for bedding, and tell you that the only other thing your little tortoise needs is romaine lettuce once a day. You don't even have to give him water, just soak him once every two weeks or so, because he will get all the water he needs from his food.

Two days later you stumble across a website - The Tortoise Forum. You proudly introduce yourself and your new baby tortoise.

You find out that your new tortoise is going to grow to 24" and 150lbs, and you have very cold winters.

You find out that the bedding is all wrong, and you need to go spend money on new bedding.

You find out that your enclosure is too cold, because all you have is a coil UV bulb, and that the bulb can prove dangerous. Now you have to spend $40-80 on a MVB bulb.

You find out that your 20 gallon tank is way to small. Now you have to go spend more money on a tub or build a larger enclosure. 

You find out that you need cuttlebone, and that romaine just isn't going to cut it. 

You find out that you not only need a water dish, but you need to soak your tortoise every day and spray the enclosure and the tortoise's shell 3-4 times a day.

Suddenly, this cute easy pet has become a money sink and more work than you anticipated. You are feeling overwhelmed. What do you want to do at this point? DO you want to wade through a bunch of technical data to find out what kind of MVB, what kind of substrate, what kind of enclosure, and where to get the things you need, or, do you want experienced people to give you advice?

That was Tom's point. I found that out too. After several years of nutritional analysis and breakdowns being posted on the main diet page of my website, I realized that the question I was getting most often was, "Okay, I have all those nutritional information. Now tell me how to interpret it. What do these numbers MEAN?" What I found is that it was easy for me to wrap my head around it, but not so easy for others. 

My point is - don't stop asking questions. It is important that we know "why." But some people just plain need help, support and advice, without the technicality. 

Oh, and Mark - great idea. I am all for it.


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