# Humidity in the Wild



## Tom (May 4, 2020)

A subject of much debate that comes up when I discuss my humid and hydrated method for raising babies and preventing pyramiding is that its not the humid in the wild where our tortoises come from. I counter that it is not that humid 2 meters above the ground out in the open where the weather meters are, but that it IS that humid down where the tortoises are hiding in little burrows and plant root balls.

Here is a little bit of evidence to support my argument. This video is about lizards, but there are measurements taken and the data is on display for anyone who cares to see it. Fast forward to 4:40 if you don't want to see the rest of it.





I'd love to hear thoughts on this.


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## Tom (May 4, 2020)

@turtlesteve 
@Markw84 
@Kapidolo Farms
@Yvonne G 
@wellington 

None of you need convincing, but I thought you might be interested since we've discussed this before.

@jaizei you always ask me for evidence and citations for my assertions. This is certainly no peer reviewed rigorous scientific expedition, but we can both read the meter. Does this count as evidence?


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## Maro2Bear (May 5, 2020)

Yep, that all makes sense to me here in Maryland. Almost common sense really. On a baking hot day here the surface area is really hot and dry, but right at ground level and in burrows....ground is humid & moist.

Now, can we talk about all those FLIES all over that guy! Yikes...flies Flies FLIES! At least they didnt appear to be biting flies.

PS - thanks for posting this video @Tom - very interesting & informative & entertaining.


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## Chubbs the tegu (May 5, 2020)

Love Dav Kaufmans vids


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## Blackdog1714 (May 5, 2020)

I would say the loads and loads of nest data that has been acquired help some too! It hurt to read though, just saying!


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## turtlesteve (May 5, 2020)

Awesome video and proves the point nicely, in my opinion. I can’t help but wonder if the burrows are always humid or if there is significant seasonal fluctuation.


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## MichaelL (May 5, 2020)

Great post! With the gopher tortoises I've seen many babies have their burrows deep in grass, never out in the open like the adults. What fascinates me is that I remember you were saying how someone was raising sulcatas IN their native range said they were skinny, and not thriving. Why do you think that?


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## Yvonne G (May 5, 2020)

If the inside of Dudley's shed, after a week of not cleaning it out, is any clue to what a burrow looks like, those burrows would be plenty humid, what with all the poop and pee they deposit in there over time.


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## LasTortugasNinja (May 5, 2020)

Yeah, humidity, even at deserts, is really high in the mornings, especially underground where there is lots of water. It always surprised me when people were basically keeping their reptiles inside what was basically a dehydrator and they were surprised that the animal developed a respiratory disease. I grew up in Arizona, and one of the "survival" techniques we learned was capturing the morning dew into jars using condensation. There's a LOT of water out there! 

Even looking at almanacs online you can see fluctuations of humidity that average 50% to 100% in the mornings to 20% to 40% in the afternoon for the commonly kept Mediterranean species. All my reptiles, even the desert species, get a misting of warm water in the morning.


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## Tom (May 6, 2020)

Yvonne G said:


> If the inside of Dudley's shed, after a week of not cleaning it out, is any clue to what a burrow looks like, those burrows would be plenty humid, what with all the poop and pee they deposit in there over time.


I've made this same observation in my tortoise boxes after a night of sulcata or leopard pooping. I'll clean the box and put in dry dirt in the afternoon, and humidity will be very low. The next morning the box is full of pee and poo and humidity is 80-90% even with an electric heater running periodically through the night.


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## Tom (May 6, 2020)

One thing I noticed about this video is that the probe on his meter was only a few inches long. At one point he says he excavated a little further into the burrow, but he's still only a few inches from the entrance of the burrow. I wonder how humid it is deeper down into the burrow where the lizard, or tortoise for the sake of our discussion, would be hanging out.

Temperature where he was measuring was still 104-105. Surely it would be cooler deeper in.


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## VegasJeff (May 6, 2020)

I think @Tom is spot on for this one. I never knew about microclimates until I started learning more about tortoises on the forum and bought a temperature gun. If you use a termperature gun on your porch, you can see a big difference between the temperature in the sun and the shade. And of course, you know this, because you can feel it to. Same concept applies to humidity.

In the room I am currently in, I got a digital thermometer sitting on top of the substrate in my turtle's cage and it reports 60% humidity right now. Across the room, where I sit, I have another digital thermometer and it reports 25% humidity which sounds about right for the desert here. 2 microclimates in the same room right there.


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## LasTortugasNinja (May 6, 2020)

VegasJeff said:


> I think @Tom is spot on for this one. I never knew about microclimates until I started learning more about tortoises on the forum and bought a temperature gun. If you use a termperature gun on your porch, you can see a big difference between the temperature in the sun and the shade. And of course, you know this, because you can feel it to. Same concept applies to humidity.
> 
> In the room I am currently in, I got a digital thermometer sitting on top of the substrate in my turtle's cage and it reports 60% humidity right now. Across the room, where I sit, I have another digital thermometer and it reports 25% humidity which sounds about right for the desert here. 2 microclimates in the same room right there.



Yup. I have 3 different reptiles with several different microclimates. I never thought it was that shocking about humidity, but I always looked at it as common sense, since every book, site, and forum says to recreate the natural habitat as much as possible. Now that I think about it, I don't remember any book ever saying to raise humidity in the morning, and let it drop in the afternoons. I think I just assumed it.


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## Myakoda (May 7, 2020)

Tom said:


> A subject of much debate that comes up when I discuss my humid and hydrated method for raising babies and preventing pyramiding is that its not the humid in the wild where our tortoises come from. I counter that it is not that humid 2 meters above the ground out in the open where the weather meters are, but that it IS that humid down where the tortoises are hiding in little burrows and plant root balls.
> 
> Here is a little bit of evidence to support my argument. This video is about lizards, but there are measurements taken and the data is on display for anyone who cares to see it. Fast forward to 4:40 if you don't want to see the rest of it.
> 
> ...


I thank Tom for his years of research, he takes the time to share and help us.. Myakoda, my 8 month old Sulcata is thriving in her more humid enviroment. She is a happy, hydrated Tortoise. She's basking here, after napping in her humid hide.


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## Myakoda (May 7, 2020)

Maro2Bear said:


> Yep, that all makes sense to me here in Maryland. Almost common sense really. On a baking hot day here the surface area is really hot and dry, but right at ground level and in burrows....ground is humid & moist.
> 
> Now, can we talk about all those FLIES all over that guy! Yikes...flies Flies FLIES! At least they didnt appear to be biting flies.
> 
> PS - thanks for posting this video @Tom - very interesting & informative & entertaining.


I was noticing all the flies too lol.


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## wellington (May 9, 2020)

Tom said:


> A subject of much debate that comes up when I discuss my humid and hydrated method for raising babies and preventing pyramiding is that its not the humid in the wild where our tortoises come from. I counter that it is not that humid 2 meters above the ground out in the open where the weather meters are, but that it IS that humid down where the tortoises are hiding in little burrows and plant root balls.
> 
> Here is a little bit of evidence to support my argument. This video is about lizards, but there are measurements taken and the data is on display for anyone who cares to see it. Fast forward to 4:40 if you don't want to see the rest of it.
> 
> ...


I'm not surprised its humid but I'm surprised it's that humid and with the temp still remaining almost as high as the outside. Love that you found this.


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## Viola B (May 13, 2020)

This is very good information. So glad you shared it with us all.


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## Myakoda (May 17, 2020)

Tom said:


> One thing I noticed about this video is that the probe on his meter was only a few inches long. At one point he says he excavated a little further into the burrow, but he's still only a few inches from the entrance of the burrow. I wonder how humid it is deeper down into the burrow where the lizard, or tortoise for the sake of our discussion, would be hanging out.
> 
> Temperature where he was measuring was still 104-105. Surely it would be cooler deeper in.


Hi Tom, I left a message somwhere on here about Mya's new humidifier. I know, I get lost on here sometimes! We ordered her a Lizard humidifier, the regular one on the table in her nursery wasn't working that great. It was about 75 in her enclosure. This came with a tube, which you hang down into her enclosure. It is a soft humid mist. I hope this isn't harmful, or to much, I don't know, it's the best idea I've had for high humidity for her for now. We will get her the enclosure you have for yours, just unable to at this time. I've tried dowloading the video, I'm not having any luck! I will do that as soon as this issue resolves. I just hope it's ok for the fog going into her enclosure, without giving her a resp infection. It's been here all day on Saturday. She seems to like it.


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## Myakoda (May 17, 2020)

https://video-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t42.27313-2/97965161_1158419367844624_7780300430268956672_n.mp4?_nc_cat=110&vs=5eda80c6b419db24&_nc_vs=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&_nc_sid=a6057a&efg=eyJ2ZW5jb2RlX3RhZyI6Im9lcF9oZCJ9&_nc_ohc=6jLen1A1rCEAX86tTfT&_nc_ht=video-lax3-1.xx&oh=d3ae02a8b7b640166cedcf43e630274e&oe=5EC12133&_nc_rid=f3235c8813444d8&dl=1


This is the only way I could download this video, gawd!! Lol. It shows her eating a leaf she dragged over by her water, and the humidifier mist/fog. Finally. Took me an hour. Thanks Tom, I hope you see my above comment and this. Also, anyone else as well. Trying to get this humidity 80++


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## Toddrickfl1 (May 17, 2020)

I think this is good evidence against microclimates for Hatchlings too. If 99.9% of the time they are found in the same humid locations in the wild, why create the microclimates they avoid? It makes more sense to create their whole enclosure like the microclimate they seek out.


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## Tom (May 17, 2020)

Myakoda said:


> Hi Tom, I left a message somwhere on here about Mya's new humidifier. I know, I get lost on here sometimes! We ordered her a Lizard humidifier, the regular one on the table in her nursery wasn't working that great. It was about 75 in her enclosure. This came with a tube, which you hang down into her enclosure. It is a soft humid mist. I hope this isn't harmful, or to much, I don't know, it's the best idea I've had for high humidity for her for now. We will get her the enclosure you have for yours, just unable to at this time. I've tried dowloading the video, I'm not having any luck! I will do that as soon as this issue resolves. I just hope it's ok for the fog going into her enclosure, without giving her a resp infection. It's been here all day on Saturday. She seems to like it.


I don't care for humidifiers personally. I think it fails to address the problem. If you stop your warm humid air from escaping, you don't have to shoot damp air into your enclosure. If you are losing that much humidity, you are also losing that much heat. If you are losing that much heat, you are having to burn more electricity to replace it, and this causes more desiccation and dryness, which requires more humid air to be shot in to replace it. It like chasing your tail. Contain your heat and moisture, and you won't have either problem.


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## Tom (May 17, 2020)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> I think this is good evidence against microclimates for Hatchlings too. If 99.9% of the time they are found in the same humid locations in the wild, why create the microclimates they avoid? It makes more sense to create their whole enclosure like the microclimate they seek out.


Man... I have had that argument soooooo many times.

Two main issues:
1. What do they experience in the wild? This is debated all day long, and every person has their own "feelings" about it. Many quote weather data. I counter that tortoises aren't 2 meters above the ground away from vegetation and cover, which is where the weather sensors are. Then you have the issues of people and their interpretation and their imitations of what they believe these wild conditions to be. This is what lead to the dry "desert" enclosures for sulcatas and leopards 30 years ago that still persist to this day. All this speculation over wild conditions causes some arguers to ignore the mountains of evidence that live in our homes and yards daily. I have trouble wrapping my head around that sort of willful ignorance based on pride or winning an argument.
2. When people aren't sure which way to go with all this conflicting info, often their solution is to offer the tortoise a choice. As if the tortoise is going to rationally think this out. It forces the tortoise to choose between competing survival drives. Instinctually, they will choose what they perceive as the most secure location, instead of the location with the correct temps and humidity. What this tactic overlooks is that in the wild, most everywhere that gives them the security they are looking for, also gives them the correct growing conditions, in contrast to our man made indoor enclosures. This strategy also requires the person to ignore mountains of evidence demonstrating that giving tortoises the BEST conditions in their enclosures produces the BEST results.


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## turtlesteve (May 17, 2020)

Tom said:


> Man... I have had that argument soooooo many times.
> 
> Two main issues:
> 1. What do they experience in the wild? This is debated all day long, and every person has their own "feelings" about it. Many quote weather data. I counter that tortoises aren't 2 meters above the ground away from vegetation and cover, which is where the weather sensors are. Then you have the issues of people and their interpretation and their imitations of what they believe these wild conditions to be. This is what lead to the dry "desert" enclosures for sulcatas and leopards 30 years ago that still persist to this day. All this speculation over wild conditions causes some arguers to ignore the mountains of evidence that live in our homes and yards daily. I have trouble wrapping my head around that sort of willful ignorance based on pride or winning an argument.
> 2. When people aren't sure which way to go with all this conflicting info, often their solution is to offer the tortoise a choice. As if the tortoise is going to rationally think this out. It forces the tortoise to choose between competing survival drives. Instinctually, they will choose what they perceive as the most secure location, instead of the location with the correct temps and humidity. What this tactic overlooks is that in the wild, most everywhere that gives them the security they are looking for, also gives them the correct growing conditions, in contrast to our man made indoor enclosures. This strategy also requires the person to ignore mountains of evidence demonstrating that giving tortoises the BEST conditions in their enclosures produces the BEST results.



Well said. At this point we know enough to provide optimal conditions for hatchlings to grow and thrive. Most healthy tortoises can self-regulate, but when people give hatchlings a large temperature or humidity gradient it simply makes large parts of their enclosure uninhabitable most of the time.


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## Myakoda (May 17, 2020)

Tom said:


> I don't care for humidifiers personally. I think it fails to address the problem. If you stop your warm humid air from escaping, you don't have to shoot damp air into your enclosure. If you are losing that much humidity, you are also losing that much heat. If you are losing that much heat, you are having to burn more electricity to replace it, and this causes more desiccation and dryness, which requires more humid air to be shot in to replace it. It like chasing your tail. Contain your heat and moisture, and you won't have either problem.


We're sending this one back. The other one worked better in her room. Her humidity was about 80 in her enclosure, when we shut the door, 75 with the bedroom door open. So now it's 80 in her enclosure ambiant, her hide about 83. She's happy, basks, eats a lot, poops a lot, and she gets soaks everyday for at least 20 minutes. She poops in her water, and rareley goes in her hide. Good girl lol. When I sell my Dad's house. I'm going to buy her the largest humid enclosure like you have. But for now, we'll have to work with this. Running 2 homes is a lot. Soon, she'll have the other.


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