# [split] Does PetsMart sell wild caught or captive bred tortoises?



## Deac77

Moderator note: I split these posts off of the original thread because they are off topic. The original poster just wanted to know about the unusual coloring on the steppe tortoise they saw in Petsmart. However, it is a good, informative thread and worthy of continuing




Petsmart doesn't take abandoned pets (I'm the head of the reptile And amphibian department there) also most of our reptiles are ALL captive bred we quit supplying wc about a year ago in my store


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## jeffbens0n

*RE: Check out what I found at Petsmart*



Deac77 said:


> Petsmart doesn't take abandoned pets (I'm the head of the reptile And amphibian department there) also most of our reptiles are ALL captive bred we quit supplying wc about a year ago in my store



Interesting...is this on a store by store basis, or something that petsmart is trying to to nationwide? Do you ever have CB russians in your store?


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## CourtneyAndCarl

*RE: Check out what I found at Petsmart*

I very very highly doubt that a Russian tort at Petsmart is CB.


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## Diane Sarvela

*RE: Check out what I found at Petsmart*

Petsmart does not get wild tortoises! I know people there and they have breeders they get them from. I have been to quite a few in my area. All the tortoises are very tame and healthy.


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## StudentoftheReptile

*RE: Check out what I found at Petsmart*

You're telling me that PETsMART is selling captive-bred green anoles and long-tailed grass lizards for mere $6.99? CB Chinese water dragons for only $35?

Yeah right...


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## wellington

*RE: Check out what I found at Petsmart*



Diane Sarvela said:


> Petsmart does not get wild tortoises! I know people there and they have breeders they get them from. I have been to quite a few in my area. All the tortoises are very tame and healthy.



What area are you in? Because it's not a blanket statement for all Petsmart stores. I have been to the warehouses that the tortoises, fish, lizards, etc come from for my area and some other areas. They are kept in worse conditions in the warehouses then the stores. Some animals, mostly rats, mice, lizards are captive bred in the warehouses but the conditions are not good. However, The likelyhood of them paying breeder prices, well I doubt it. However, if your store does buy them from a breeder, do they ever have any that is small then an adult, like four inches? If not, then they are probably WC. Babies are sold faster then larger adults. If they had a breeder, they would sell smaller ones.


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## StudentoftheReptile

*RE: Check out what I found at Petsmart*

From Petsmart's website: http://www.petsmart.com/family/inde...onomy/PET/10794149&fbc=1&fbn=Taxonomy|Reptile

*Crocodile gecko - 29.99*
Green anole - 7.99
long-tailed lizard - 9.99
Bahaman anole - 7.99
*African sideneck turtle - 29.99*
green treefrog - 9.99
*Russian tortoise - 79.99*
*Golden gecko - 29.99*
*Greek tortoise - 82.49*
---------

There's no way those species are captive-bred at those prices, especially the geckos, tortoises and the side-neck turtle. If they were, they'd be almost double that price.

Petco does have prices listed on their sites, because all live animals are "in-store only" but here's a list of species I know are not captive-bred either:

Chinese water dragon
savannah monitor
tokay gecko
plated lizard
mountain horned dragon
green anole
fire skink
crocodile gecko
African bouncing toad
chubby frog
green tree frog
grey tree frog (those are becoming threatened, don't know how they're getting those!)
Moroccan green toad
red-legged walking frog
African sideneck turtle
Russian tortoise
hermit crabs
millipedes


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## Q'sTortie

*RE: Check out what I found at Petsmart*



StudentoftheReptile said:


> You're telling me that PETsMART is selling captive-bred green anoles and long-tailed grass lizards for mere $6.99? CB Chinese water dragons for only $35?
> 
> Yeah right...



You are definitely making a good point about the prices. It is definitely hard to believe. What I definitely believe is that the green anoles are WC around here because they are *everywhere* around this part of Florida. I can even imagine the manager sending some staff outside to catch them when they run out of animals.


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## Yvonne G

My grandson is a manager at our local PetsMart and he tells me that they buy their tortoises from a wholesaler in Southern California. I've been to a couple of those wholesalers. They are wild caught tortoises.


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## mctlong

I think alot of folks at Petsmart and Petco assume that because the store buys animals from a local dealer, they must be Captive Bred. I bought an RT at Petco in 2008. At that time, the department manager told me that the animal was a baby from a local breeder, but it obviously was not. It was 4" WC. The manager was not trying to be dishonest or anything. The Petco corporate office just didn't tell her that they were purchasing WCs. The store employees do not realize that Petco's dealers are not always breeders, but are sometimes middlemen who are importing and selling WCs. 

Bottom line, do your research before entering the petstore and don't expect the in-store employees to know everything about every animal they sell. They mean well, but they don't know the whole story.


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## poison

*RE: Check out what I found at Petsmart*



StudentoftheReptile said:


> From Petsmart's website: http://www.petsmart.com/family/inde...onomy/PET/10794149&fbc=1&fbn=Taxonomy|Reptile
> 
> *Crocodile gecko - 29.99*
> Green anole - 7.99
> long-tailed lizard - 9.99
> Bahaman anole - 7.99
> *African sideneck turtle - 29.99*
> green treefrog - 9.99
> *Russian tortoise - 79.99*
> *Golden gecko - 29.99*
> *Greek tortoise - 82.49*
> ---------
> 
> There's no way those species are captive-bred at those prices, especially the geckos, tortoises and the side-neck turtle. If they were, they'd be almost double that price.
> 
> Petco does have prices listed on their sites, because all live animals are "in-store only" but here's a list of species I know are not captive-bred either:
> 
> Chinese water dragon
> savannah monitor
> tokay gecko
> plated lizard
> mountain horned dragon
> green anole
> fire skink
> crocodile gecko
> African bouncing toad
> chubby frog
> green tree frog
> grey tree frog (those are becoming threatened, don't know how they're getting those!)
> Moroccan green toad
> red-legged walking frog
> African sideneck turtle
> Russian tortoise
> hermit crabs
> millipedes





there is several pet store in my area that sell them cheaper then that. if any thing those prices are high


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## StudentoftheReptile

I mean, even tortoise dealers and breeders sell CB Russian babies starting at $150.00, while WC specimens are $70 or less. Compare that is RETAIL mark-up in a petstore? A cb Russian would be at least, $169.99, probably more.



poison said:


> there is several pet store in my area that sell them cheaper then that. if any thing those prices are high



It varies. In my town, Petsmart is cheaper, while my LPS is outrageous. They still charge $149.99 for WC Russians!


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## poison

StudentoftheReptile said:


> I mean, even tortoise dealers and breeders sell CB Russian babies starting at $150.00, while WC specimens are $70 or less. Compare that is RETAIL mark-up in a petstore? A cb Russian would be at least, $169.99, probably more.
> 
> 
> 
> poison said:
> 
> 
> 
> there is several pet store in my area that sell them cheaper then that. if any thing those prices are high
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It varies. In my town, Petsmart is cheaper, while my LPS is outrageous. They still charge $149.99 for WC Russians!
Click to expand...




ive never seen a captive bred Russian go for 150 in my area they usually go for 60-100 for a baby


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## StudentoftheReptile

poison said:


> ive never seen a captive bred Russian go for 150 in my area they usually go for 60-100 for a baby



Who sells CB russian tortoises for that cheap? Where are you from?


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## poison

im in san diego california.


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## mctlong

poison said:


> im in san diego california.



Thats awesome Poison, what Breeder are you going to?


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## poison

mctlong said:


> poison said:
> 
> 
> 
> im in san diego california.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats awesome Poison, what Breeder are you going to?
Click to expand...


i dont go to breeders. other then the pet stores that breed them lol


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## CourtneyAndCarl

I can believe captive bred russian hatchlings maybe going that cheap. MAYBE.


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## tyrs4u

at the store back in Southern Cali; they were all WC. Only our mammal department actually had "companies" that drove in from Los Angeles weekly to supply the store every Thursday night. According to a friend that still works there Nothing has changed; except that they fired the manager there that told employee's to 'euthanize' rodents (that were sick or dieing/attacked) by placing them in the Freezer or feeding them to the (non-popular) snakes... The store made me sick; hence why I do not work for them. But simple answer, Torts 4 inches plus are *always in my opinion* WildCaught. The only way I have ever purchased a CB in a pet store (family owned and very christian; yikes); was by talking to the person that ran it and said "oh yeah we can get you those, we just have to contact our guy to see if he has any" basically a breeder in Portland...

RT in Oregon go for $99 & that's usually 5inch females WC... (the stores in my area)


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## poison

im 100% sure these are cb in fact they have a huge incubator with the eggs hatching out right in front of your eyes


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## CourtneyAndCarl

tyrs4u said:


> at the store back in Southern Cali; they were all WC. Only our mammal department actually had "companies" that drove in from Los Angeles weekly to supply the store every Thursday night. According to a friend that still works there Nothing has changed; except that they fired the manager there that told employee's to 'euthanize' rodents (that were sick or dieing/attacked) by placing them in the Freezer or feeding them to the (non-popular) snakes... The store made me sick; hence why I do not work for them. But simple answer, Torts 4 inches plus are *always in my opinion* WildCaught. The only way I have ever purchased a CB in a pet store (family owned and very christian; yikes); was by talking to the person that ran it and said "oh yeah we can get you those, we just have to contact our guy to see if he has any" basically a breeder in Portland...
> 
> RT in Oregon go for $99 & that's usually 5inch females WC... (the stores in my area)



At Petco, and I believe at Petsmart, too, if it doesn't say "captive bred" on the tag that means we don't know and that odds are it was probably wild caught. That's mostly with saltwater fish, but I think we have it on our herps too.


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## poison

futureleopardtortoise said:


> tyrs4u said:
> 
> 
> 
> at the store back in Southern Cali; they were all WC. Only our mammal department actually had "companies" that drove in from Los Angeles weekly to supply the store every Thursday night. According to a friend that still works there Nothing has changed; except that they fired the manager there that told employee's to 'euthanize' rodents (that were sick or dieing/attacked) by placing them in the Freezer or feeding them to the (non-popular) snakes... The store made me sick; hence why I do not work for them. But simple answer, Torts 4 inches plus are *always in my opinion* WildCaught. The only way I have ever purchased a CB in a pet store (family owned and very christian; yikes); was by talking to the person that ran it and said "oh yeah we can get you those, we just have to contact our guy to see if he has any" basically a breeder in Portland...
> 
> RT in Oregon go for $99 & that's usually 5inch females WC... (the stores in my area)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At Petco, and I believe at Petsmart, too, if it doesn't say "captive bred" on the tag that means we don't know and that odds are it was probably wild caught. That's mostly with saltwater fish, but I think we have it on our herps too.
Click to expand...


or that can just mean that they dont know where they originally came from


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## CourtneyAndCarl

poison said:


> futureleopardtortoise said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tyrs4u said:
> 
> 
> 
> at the store back in Southern Cali; they were all WC. Only our mammal department actually had "companies" that drove in from Los Angeles weekly to supply the store every Thursday night. According to a friend that still works there Nothing has changed; except that they fired the manager there that told employee's to 'euthanize' rodents (that were sick or dieing/attacked) by placing them in the Freezer or feeding them to the (non-popular) snakes... The store made me sick; hence why I do not work for them. But simple answer, Torts 4 inches plus are *always in my opinion* WildCaught. The only way I have ever purchased a CB in a pet store (family owned and very christian; yikes); was by talking to the person that ran it and said "oh yeah we can get you those, we just have to contact our guy to see if he has any" basically a breeder in Portland...
> 
> RT in Oregon go for $99 & that's usually 5inch females WC... (the stores in my area)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At Petco, and I believe at Petsmart, too, if it doesn't say "captive bred" on the tag that means we don't know and that odds are it was probably wild caught. That's mostly with saltwater fish, but I think we have it on our herps too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> or that can just mean that they dont know where they originally came from
Click to expand...


With saltwater fish, it means they are wild caught. I'm not sure about the herps but I'm relatively sure that most of the lizards and snakes are cb but the torts are definitely WC


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## StudentoftheReptile

futureleopardtortoise said:


> poison said:
> 
> 
> 
> or that can just mean that they dont know where they originally came from
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With saltwater fish, it means they are wild caught. I'm not sure about the herps but I'm relatively sure that most of the lizards and snakes are cb but the torts are definitely WC
Click to expand...


The only saltwater fish that I know of that are captive-bred are some of the clownfish species, and maybe a handful of damselfishes...but they still offer WC specimens of those species as well; just because its a clownfish, doesn't mean its CB.

Anything else is definitely WC.
---------------
As far as herps go, any of the little cheap "yard" lizards and amphibians, like anoles, long-tailed lizards, croc geckos, house geckos, golden geckos, tokay geckos....pretty much anything $30.00 or less is almost definitely wildcaught. No one breeds anoles in captivity in enough numbers to meet the demands of pet stores. Even the water dragons or agamas are WC as well. Those are the African and Asian equivalents of our anoles and skinks and fence lizards. Just small little insectivores that 3rd world countries go out and collect by the hundreds for mere dollars a day to satisfy bazaars, food demands, and the pet trade. Thousands die in transit before they even reach the U.S. But still these are the small potatoes to importers and dealers.

Not trying to make anyone cry...just describing the reality of how some of those species end up in those tiny, cramped glass boxes in pet shop shelves.


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## Deac77

As far as our supplier tells us they are cb as for the anoles and smaller lizards I literally give away at least 10 a week bc they hatch out in our facility and we can't sell them and that's just with the adults they send us breeding at my store in Texas we removed all our wc signs as soon as our suppliers stop supplying them also any new herp that is brought into the store is taken to the vet the same day and has a fecal and regular check up done before putting with the other herps no one has ever came back positive for parasites in the 3 years I've been manager there


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## StudentoftheReptile

Deac77 said:


> As far as our supplier tells us they are cb as for the anoles and smaller lizards I literally give away at least 10 a week bc they hatch out in our facility and we can't sell them and that's just with the adults they send us breeding at my store in Texas we removed all our wc signs as soon as our suppliers stop supplying them also any new herp that is brought into the store is taken to the vet the same day and has a fecal and regular check up done before putting with the other herps no one has ever came back positive for parasites in the 3 years I've been manager there



This is sadly the rare exception to the rule, on both accounts:
- Nearly all cases of captive breeding with anoles or other species I mentioned earlier are either accidental or mostly by enthusiasts devoted to that species. I only know of maybe 10-20 people nationwide (personally) who can take care of a single adult anole properly, much less get them to breed. Kudos on your success.
- Very pet stores have a vet check new arrivals or do fecal exams. In fact, very pet store critters ever see a vet at all while they are there, and those are usually the larger/pricier species such as parrots, or larger herps. No pet store I have ever encountered ever took a gecko or an iguana or a corn snake to the vet, much less an anole. There may be some general medications on hand for common ailments, but because the staff is so clueless, there is almost as much damage done with these as any illnesses themselves.


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## wellington

Well, just for my own satisfaction, I called the two Petsmart stores in San Diego. Not that they wouldn't lie, but both store said that their tortoises are CB from a breeder and yes they know who the breeder is. I guess you need to decide if they are telling the truth or not. I would guess in Cali, probably the truth. If they were in oh say, indiana, Illinois or any of the colder states where I don't think there is as much breeding going on, well then I would say WC.

One more thing. Neither store breeds them in the store and neither store has a incubator with eggs in it.


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## StudentoftheReptile

wellington said:


> One more thing. Neither store breeds them in the store and neither store has a incubator with eggs in it.



Yeah, I used to work for Petsmart, too. Any breeding of any species is purely accident.


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## Deac77

You don't have to believe me but I am tell you I've sent employees to the vet with corn snakes geckos and anoles and for the record I keep and breed anoles very successfully to feed certain snakes I keep like my vine snake it's Petsmart policy not to administer Meds without the animal seeing a doctor first not all petsmarts are as bad as you believe some have people like me who truly care about our animals and who are actually attending school to work with reptiles me for example I am going to school for herpetology with a emphasis in monitors and tegus particularly their intelligence


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## StudentoftheReptile

Deac77, I do believe you. I am only stating that you are the exception, the minority....not the norm. My opinion is not flippant. It is been talking with many people over the past decade across the country working in various pet store environments, both the big box chains (Petsmart, Petco, etc) and the "mom and pop" shops that are privately-owned. There are a few good stores out there, and like you, there are certainly a handful of good, knowledgeable people employed by some. But again, this makes up the minority. The bottom line is that pet stores are businesses, and businesses exist to make money; when there are live animals involved, that regrettably doesn't change things much; just a few more policies to adhere to.


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## ascott

Lol...I have to say, I am enjoying this thread. The first thing that popped to mind was, I wonder if this is the type of banter that occurred when we first began to understand torts need drinking water and other food besides iceberg lettuce.....lol...good stuff....


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## Deac77

Lol I agree I take no offense I can only speak for what I do in my store


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## StudentoftheReptile

PETsMART is a company that generally caters to "beginner pets." This is why they do not sell green iguanas or savannah monitors, or baby sulcata tortoises. However, just because its "small" doesn't make it a great starter reptile. It is my personal opinion that green anoles should not be sold in box chains. There is only one reason they are there: they are CHEAP. They are for the family who isn't quite ready to blow $40-60 on a leopard gecko or bearded dragon for their 10-yr old, much less the entire set-up ($100+). Let's just get him the $7 green lizard to shut him up before we think we're ready for this kind of pet. Nevermind the company-approved brochure that details the "proper" husbandry of anoles. Nevermind that this isn't a kid's pet; its a hands-off lizard; look but don't touch. They might spend a total of $30 on the thing, and within a month, it dies or they let the thing go. Same goes for long-tailed lizards. Those aren't kids pets.

Its great that there are hobbyists that enjoy those species, but IMHO, anoles are just one of those species that are not good in pet stores. Maybe in a specialty shop that is mostly reptiles operated by reptile people, but not these big box stores. \

There's only a niche market/community for anoles and most of that community knows what they're doing, and do not have to rely on pet shops for breeding stock, supplies, etc.



ascott said:


> Lol...I have to say, I am enjoying this thread. The first thing that popped to mind was, I wonder if this is the type of banter that occurred when we first began to understand torts need drinking water and other food besides iceberg lettuce.....lol...good stuff....



I'm pretty sure it was, but apparently, it still goes on!

Remember that when I first got my sulcata, I did the same thing, and that was only a year ago. I mean, I'm not proud of it or anything, but that's just the information ingrained into me at the time.


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## Deac77

I agree on anoles I only keep them myself as feeders they are like fish pretty and fun to watch when feeding but don't mess with them


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## CourtneyAndCarl

Petsmart and Petco can only sell animals that aren't illegal in that area. So, I bet there is a Petsmart or Petco somewhere that sells green iguanas, just can't in most places because they are illegal. 

I also take a little offense to the anole thing. We caught our own anoles in Florida and had them for several years, even got a few accidental babies. Sure we had no idea what we were doing, but we actually ended up taking pretty good care of them.


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## Deac77

As far as I can tell company wide we do not carry green iguanas I personally have 2 though lol


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## CourtneyAndCarl

Deac77 said:


> As far as I can tell company wide we do not carry green iguanas I personally have 2 though lol



SOME petcos sell iguanas, but I assume it's probably more of if it's legal in that area, the store will special order it for you.


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## Deac77

I don't work at petco lol I'm at Petsmart


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## wellington

Deac77 said:


> You don't have to believe me but I am tell you I've sent employees to the vet with corn snakes geckos and anoles and for the record I keep and breed anoles very successfully to feed certain snakes I keep like my vine snake it's Petsmart policy not to administer Meds without the animal seeing a doctor first not all petsmarts are as bad as you believe some have people like me who truly care about our animals and who are actually attending school to work with reptiles me for example I am going to school for herpetology with a emphasis in monitors and tegus particularly their intelligence



It's not that we don't believe you. It's the stores and the way they can twist or hide things to make it sound better to make a buck. Your Petsmart and in your area and even Cali as I found out probably does have CB. The majority probably doesn't.


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## CourtneyAndCarl

Deac77 said:


> I don't work at petco lol I'm at Petsmart



I know. I work at Petco


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## StudentoftheReptile

I was told it was company policy that Petsmart does not sell green iguanas. I have never seen a single green iguana in a petsmart, nor have I ever met or heard of anyone who has seen an actual green iguana being sold in a petsmart.



futureleopardtortoise said:


> Petsmart and Petco can only sell animals that aren't illegal in that area. So, I bet there is a Petsmart or Petco somewhere that sells green iguanas, just can't in most places because they are illegal.
> 
> I also take a little offense to the anole thing. We caught our own anoles in Florida and had them for several years, even got a few accidental babies. Sure we had no idea what we were doing, but we actually ended up taking pretty good care of them.



Again, I'm was talking in generalities. The average joe knows squat thinks all there is to keeping anoles is a Kritter Keeper. A TRUE herper will learn from their mistakes and improve their husbandry over time. The average joe will not; to him, a green anole is just a gold fish with legs...or an ant farm, or a grow-a-frog kit = something disposable. They don't view them how you or I or anyone else on this board sees them.


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## Mgridgaway

As far as I've seen, most stores don't sell Iguanas anymore. They're the Sulcata of lizards; they're cheap, they get huge, and they need a lot of space. And Unlike Sulcatas, if you get one that doesn't tame well (like my Ferdinand), they can also be dangerous and unpredictable. I personally think it's one of the better choices pet shops have made. People who still really want a green iguana can still easily get one from a trade show or online.

For what it's worth, every Petco or Petsmart I've been to has RT's that have that classic "I'm from the wild" look to them.


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## acrantophis

I worked in a pet store for over 20 years. This topic saddens me. No one should be shopping at these giant mega stores. Apart from the terrible information you get concerning animal husbandry, you also are hurting local businesses. Support your locally owned pet shops. Spend your money locally. Large mega stores are killing small business. They kill our economy. Just like walmart and target, they destroy many small businesses in the area. This is one of the reasons the middle class is dying. Small shops can't and don't make money on livestock. It's on all the other things. When you buy an animal at a little place and all your equipment at petco you have voted, with your dollar, to shutdown a local privately owned shop. Remember when every town had a nice little pet shop? I do. That being said, petco buys most
Of their reptiles and amphibians from California zoological supply in San Luis Obispo. And they sell a lot of imported chelonians, squamates and anurans. They rarely breed anything but they do buy cb animals from many people.


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## EricIvins

Okay here are the FACTS about Petco -

They sell both wild caught AND captive bred Tortoises.........Along with a myriad of other Reptiles.......

What they get is dependent on the supplier they use and the area they are in.......It is that simple.......And yes, some of those suppliers breed some of those animals that are "never" captive bred.........An example would be Water Dragons........It isn't particularly hard to do, akin to something like a Bearded Dragon that can be produced en' mass..........

$150 Hatchling Russians? I guess in a perfect world where the Geese still lay golden eggs..........


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## Deac77

For the record I keep my "goldfish with legs" in a 55gal Viv I set up with live plants colonial pill bugs ad spent over 400$ on that set up alone I dont go half ***


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## Mgridgaway

acrantophis said:


> I worked in a pet store for over 20 years. This topic saddens me. No one should be shopping at these giant mega stores. Apart from the terrible information you get concerning animal husbandry, you also are hurting local businesses. Support your locally owned pet shops. Spend your money locally. Large mega stores are killing small business. They kill our economy. Just like walmart and target, they destroy many small businesses in the area. This is one of the reasons the middle class is dying. Small shops can't and don't make money on livestock. It's on all the other things. When you buy an animal at a little place and all your equipment at petco you have voted, with your dollar, to shutdown a local privately owned shop. Remember when every town had a nice little pet shop? I do. That being said, petco buys most
> Of their reptiles and amphibians from California zoological supply in San Luis Obispo. And they sell a lot of imported chelonians, squamates and anurans. They rarely breed anything but they do buy cb animals from many people.



In my experience, mom and pop pet stores almost always lose my dollar because they mark up everything. For example, I went to our closest local pet shop this weekend (which is 45 minutes away) and while they surprisingly had pancake tortoises and only wanted $250 for them, they wanted $180 for a northern redfoot hatchling (normally no more than $150 shipped online) and $75 for a 160 Watt Powersun UVB that you can get on Amazon for $46 shipped.

Like many others, getting the best deal is my number one priority when buying something. I can certainly sympathize with small pet shop owners and their plight, but at the end of the day, if shopping online or at Petco/smart saves me 30% of what buying from a local store would cost, I'd rather save 30%. I love pet stores and I miss the many that've closed in my area, but being able to save money is more important to me.

And to be fair, the internet has affected pet stores just as much as box stores. For every animal, there's a breeder who can take advantage of the internet, cut out the middleman, and sell their animals for more profit than they would've made and less than we probably would've paid. And if that's not supporting small business, I don't know what is.


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## acrantophis

Mgridgaway said:


> In my experience, mom and pop pet stores almost always lose my dollar because they mark up everything. For example, I went to our closest local pet shop this weekend (which is 45 minutes away) and while they surprisingly had pancake tortoises and only wanted $250 for them, they wanted $180 for a northern redfoot hatchling (normally no more than $150 shipped online) and $75 for a 160 Watt Powersun UVB that you can get on Amazon for $46 shipped.
> 
> Like many others, getting the best deal is my number one priority when buying something. I can certainly sympathize with small pet shop owners and their plight, but at the end of the day, if shopping online or at Petco/smart saves me 30% of what buying from a local store would cost, I'd rather save 30%. I love pet stores and I miss the many that've closed in my area, but being able to save money is more important to me.
> 
> And to be fair, the internet has affected pet stores just as much as box stores. For every animal, there's a breeder who can take advantage of the internet, cut out the middleman, and sell their animals for more profit than they would've made and less than we probably would've paid. And if that's not supporting small business, I don't know what is.



All you said is sad but true. I grew up in a small town that became a big town. I rode the reptile industry wave from 1985 to 2003. I have bred and sold so many different animals it's crazy. I realize that buying and caring for animals is expensive. It's just unfortunate that an industry which was once such a strong economic entity is succumbing to a slow death...,Sorry I'm just down today. The shop I grew up working at and helped build was closed last week. I haven't worked there in 12 years. But the owner is a friend of mine. It's seems like a trend for small stores of any kind to have to close because of large megastores. What does the future hold, only 2 stores? Home depot and Walmart?


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## Mgridgaway

acrantophis said:


> All you said is sad but true. I grew up in a small town that became a big town. I rode the reptile industry wave from 1985 to 2003. I have bred and sold so many different animals it's crazy. I realize that buying and caring for animals is expensive. It's just unfortunate that an industry which was once such a strong economic entity is succumbing to a slow death...,Sorry I'm just down today. The shop I grew up working at and helped build was closed last week. I haven't worked there in 12 years. But the owner is a friend of mine. It's seems like a trend for small stores of any kind to have to close because of large megastores. What does the future hold, only 2 stores? Home depot and Walmart?



I can understand your pain. Our neighborhood pet store closed down 3 or 4 years ago. I bought countless animals from there over the years, and loved going in to see their sliders and huge Iguanas. My personal favorite, about 20 minutes away, closed down a year before that. One stands empty and the other is now a Five Below. I like seeing the animals at Petco/Petsmart, but they seem like an afterthought to the huge pet supplies racket they run.

I think pet stores are just one of those business models that completely lost their viability after the internet became mature and box stores became the norm. Most of the supplies I need (lights, heat, etc) are just plain cheaper online. Cheaper than a mom and pop, cheaper than a big box. Most other supplies I go outside of traditional pet stores (ie going to home depot to build enclosures, get pots for hides, etc).

At least I have reptile shows in my area so I can get something similar to that feeling of nostalgia and excitement you get from going to the pet store. I just wish they didn't charge just to get in....


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## StudentoftheReptile

Deac77 said:


> For the record I keep my "goldfish with legs" in a 55gal Viv I set up with live plants colonial pill bugs ad spent over 400$ on that set up alone I dont go half ***



If more people were like you (with any species, not just anoles!), this would hardly be an issue.

My mentality is to try and treat every animal like its priceless, not disposable. Most people just try to evaluate cost of care vs initial price of the animal. Not many are going to spend hundreds of dollars to set-up a $7 lizard.


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## CourtneyAndCarl

I even hate it when people keep goldfish in small bowls or tanks! Goldfish belong in nothing less than 55 gallons with a huge filter, or even better, a POND. One of my least favorite things about working at Petco is getting all the people come in that want to put a butterfly koi in a 20 gallon tank. I always tell them "you realize this thing is going to get three feet long, right?" and I am so surprised that there are still so many people that believe fish grow to the size of their tank. A lot of people ask me that about my tortoise, too.


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## StudentoftheReptile

I just thought of a GREAT idea!

You know how we all go around in circles about how most people suck and take horrible care of their pets, and how there should a test for people to own pets, blah blah blah, etc. Of course, this is not feasible, but I just thought of an alternative.

Kind of an incentive for consumers and "noobs" to learn more about pets. Have a Quiz in pet stores or something, and if the customer gets every question correct, they get a discount, or giftcard or something. Questions like:

1.) Fish, reptiles, and amphibians will only grow to the size of their tank: true or false?
2.) If I put my reptile tank by the window, I don't have to buy any lights for it: true or false?
3.) As long as I replace the cartridge in my filter, I don't have to do water changes on my aquarium: true or false?
4.) A fish's stomach is approximately the size of its eyeball: true or false?

...stuff like that. The questions they get wrong, will give the store staff an opportunity to educate them. And there may be a small consolation prize involved...who knows? Because really, the whole point is to dispel all these silly misconceptions about basic small pet husbandry. Obviously, a lot of details to be worked out, but I think the idea has merit.


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## Deac77

Actually it's petsmarts policy to do just this ask questions and if we don't feel the home is fit we can AND DO refuse the sale I turn down countless people a day/week because I won't let any of my animals go to bad homes even the fish I don't care for. And as for the anole set up I view it as a fish aquarium it way more interesting to watch and the activity level is very fun when feeding  a 55gal fish tank would've been more expensive


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## GeoTerraTestudo

StudentoftheReptile said:


> I just thought of a GREAT idea!
> 
> You know how we all go around in circles about how most people suck and take horrible care of their pets, and how there should a test for people to own pets, blah blah blah, etc. Of course, this is not feasible, but I just thought of an alternative.
> 
> Kind of an incentive for consumers and "noobs" to learn more about pets. Have a Quiz in pet stores or something, and if the customer gets every question correct, they get a discount, or giftcard or something. Questions like:
> 
> 1.) Fish, reptiles, and amphibians will only grow to the size of their tank: true or false?
> 2.) If I put my reptile tank by the window, I don't have to buy any lights for it: true or false?
> 3.) As long as I replace the cartridge in my filter, I don't have to do water changes on my aquarium: true or false?
> 4.) A fish's stomach is approximately the size of its eyeball: true or false?
> 
> ...stuff like that. The questions they get wrong, will give the store staff an opportunity to educate them. And there may be a small consolation prize involved...who knows? Because really, the whole point is to dispel all these silly misconceptions about basic small pet husbandry. Obviously, a lot of details to be worked out, but I think the idea has merit.



That _is_ a good idea!


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## CourtneyAndCarl

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> StudentoftheReptile said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just thought of a GREAT idea!
> 
> You know how we all go around in circles about how most people suck and take horrible care of their pets, and how there should a test for people to own pets, blah blah blah, etc. Of course, this is not feasible, but I just thought of an alternative.
> 
> Kind of an incentive for consumers and "noobs" to learn more about pets. Have a Quiz in pet stores or something, and if the customer gets every question correct, they get a discount, or giftcard or something. Questions like:
> 
> 1.) Fish, reptiles, and amphibians will only grow to the size of their tank: true or false?
> 2.) If I put my reptile tank by the window, I don't have to buy any lights for it: true or false?
> 3.) As long as I replace the cartridge in my filter, I don't have to do water changes on my aquarium: true or false?
> 4.) A fish's stomach is approximately the size of its eyeball: true or false?
> 
> ...stuff like that. The questions they get wrong, will give the store staff an opportunity to educate them. And there may be a small consolation prize involved...who knows? Because really, the whole point is to dispel all these silly misconceptions about basic small pet husbandry. Obviously, a lot of details to be worked out, but I think the idea has merit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That _is_ a good idea!
Click to expand...


I agree, if you could get the box chains, even just one of them, on top of that, you'd really be on to something


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## StudentoftheReptile

Deac77 said:


> Actually it's petsmarts policy to do just this ask questions and if we don't feel the home is fit we can AND DO refuse the sale



That must be a new policy. Regardless, that was/has *never* been made known to me or anyone I know who has been employed by Petsmart. In my collective experience (and those I've spoken with), the general consensus was it doesn't matter what answers you get. You can try and persuade the customer to get something else, or "think about it," but if they straight tell you "I want to buy that _____ now," your job is box it up for them, make sure you tell them everything they need to know about caring for it, and hope for the best as they walk out the door...but it was never explicitly stated (at least verbally anyway) that refusing sale of a live animal was ever an option.

If that's the policy, fantastic. I now wish only more employees were properly trained to ask the right questions, because I can assure you that they are not...at least not in our local petsmarts anyway.


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## CourtneyAndCarl

I believe the policy is that it's up to the managers. Most managers care more about profit, and just tell them to box up the animal. However, we have a lot of $300+ animals in the store, like all of our conures and things like that. We make SURE they are ready for that purchase before they walk out the store, especially after most of the employees get emotionally invested in them.


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## StudentoftheReptile

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> That _is_ a good idea!





futureleopardtortoise said:


> I agree, if you could get the box chains, even just one of them, on top of that, you'd really be on to something



I think so...because as much as we like to rag on pet stores and pet store employees (I feel that I can...because I worked in that environment for over 10 yrs), that is only one side of this battle. The other side is the customer/pet owner. Although I do concur that some responsibility does fall on any business for both providing healthy, quality animals and accurate, proper husbandry information, *it ultimately is the responsibility of the consumer to know what they're getting into, and not to rely on a singular source for information.*

Refusing a sale isn't enough. The indignant customer will just shop somewhere else or go pitch a fit to the manager until they get what they want. I know because I've seen it countless times. This idea is an INCENTIVE for the customer to go above and beyond what they already "think" they know or want. Yeah, not every person who walks in the front doors will participate (too time-consuming, or whatever).

It could also be a chance for employees to "refresh" themselves on some information, too, in preparation for this.


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## CLMoss

StudentoftheReptile said:


> I just thought of a GREAT idea!
> 
> You know how we all go around in circles about how most people suck and take horrible care of their pets, and how there should a test for people to own pets, blah blah blah, etc. Of course, this is not feasible, but I just thought of an alternative.
> 
> Kind of an incentive for consumers and "noobs" to learn more about pets. Have a Quiz in pet stores or something, and if the customer gets every question correct, they get a discount, or giftcard or something. Questions like:
> 
> 1.) Fish, reptiles, and amphibians will only grow to the size of their tank: true or false?
> 2.) If I put my reptile tank by the window, I don't have to buy any lights for it: true or false?
> 3.) As long as I replace the cartridge in my filter, I don't have to do water changes on my aquarium: true or false?
> 4.) A fish's stomach is approximately the size of its eyeball: true or false?
> 
> ...stuff like that. The questions they get wrong, will give the store staff an opportunity to educate them. And there may be a small consolation prize involved...who knows? Because really, the whole point is to dispel all these silly misconceptions about basic small pet husbandry. Obviously, a lot of details to be worked out, but I think the idea has merit.



Quiz? I don't think so... These stores want to sell product, and that is it. Education may lead to the sale of said animal to walk out of the door. Selling the animal is what lead to sales in the future for that store; food, supplies, etc., lack of education is the "hook." Also, these stores (or any) don't want to spend the time to educate, unless you ask a question (that they may not know), or if they want to take the time to educate you. Time is money, and staff would rather do nothing that to help educate. Well, at least this is what goes on here in NY. I am the one that ends up doing the "teaching" when I ask questions in some of these stores. Education, the best place is on "forums" like this, or societies of said interests. And your radio show! ~C


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## StudentoftheReptile

CLMoss said:


> Quiz? I don't think so... These stores want to sell product, and that is it. Education may lead to the sale of said animal to walk out of the door. Selling the animal is what lead to sales in the future for that store; food, supplies, etc., lack of education is the "hook." Also, these stores (or any) don't want to spend the time to educate, unless you ask a question (that they may not know), or if they want to take the time to educate you. Time is money, and staff would rather do nothing that to help educate. Well, at least this is what goes on here in NY. I am the one that ends up doing the "teaching" when I ask questions in some of these stores. Education, the best place is on "forums" like this, or societies of said interests. And your radio show! ~C



I dunno...if they handled it right, it would still be profitable. Have it for a limited time, advertise and promote it to get people coming in the doors, and even if they give away a few giftcards...once people have a little "extra" spending credit and are already in the store, they are more inclined to purchase stuff.

You are correct; the sales come from the "add-ons." But....you gotta get the people in the store in the first place!


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## CLMoss

StudentoftheReptile said:


> CLMoss said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quiz? I don't think so... These stores want to sell product, and that is it. Education may lead to the sale of said animal to walk out of the door. Selling the animal is what lead to sales in the future for that store; food, supplies, etc., lack of education is the "hook." Also, these stores (or any) don't want to spend the time to educate, unless you ask a question (that they may not know), or if they want to take the time to educate you. Time is money, and staff would rather do nothing that to help educate. Well, at least this is what goes on here in NY. I am the one that ends up doing the "teaching" when I ask questions in some of these stores. Education, the best place is on "forums" like this, or societies of said interests. And your radio show! ~C
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dunno...if they handled it right, it would still be profitable. Have it for a limited time, advertise and promote it to get people coming in the doors, and even if they give away a few giftcards...once people have a little "extra" spending credit and are already in the store, they are more inclined to purchase stuff.
> 
> You are correct; the sales come from the "add-ons." But....you gotta get the people in the store in the first place!
Click to expand...


It is a great idea! As a marketing tool, it would be great! Maybe you can sell this idea to one of these stores. ~C


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## GeoTerraTestudo

I can see the ad now:

"Come on down and see our tortoises! Take our tortoise-keeping quiz, and if you score at least an 80%, you get a bag of substrate free!"

Or something like that.


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## Edna

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> I can see the ad now:
> 
> "Come on down and see our tortoises! Take our tortoise-keeping quiz, and if you score at least an 80%, you get a bag of substrate free!"
> 
> Or something like that.



But what tortoise would want to live with an 80%er? If I were a tortoise, I'd be holding out for a 100%er with extra credit


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## GeoTerraTestudo

Edna said:


> But what tortoise would want to live with an 80%er? If I were a tortoise, I'd be holding out for a 100%er with extra credit



LOL ... Ideally, yes. But I just remind myself that we let people drive a car with only an 80% score, and that's a one-ton machine with the power to kill people. 

Seriously, though, not everyone is going to have as much knowledge as people who frequent this forum. For the average tortoise-keeper, I'd settle for someone who knows the role of substrate and humidity, the importance of varied greens, and the value of sunshine.

All we can hope for is keepers who know the basics.


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## Mgridgaway

Edna said:
 

> But what tortoise would want to live with an 80%er? If I were a tortoise, I'd be holding out for a 100%er with extra credit




I don't know... aren't we all kinda 80%ers? I mean, I know a LOT about redfoots, but every month or so I learn something new.


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## StudentoftheReptile

yeah, the type of questions I posted earlier? If people can answer those basic questions and the like, I would be happy.

For example: A lot of people STILL think that all these critters will only grow to the size of the tank. They STILL think they never have to do water changes on their aquariums. They STILL think baby turtles (even box turtles!) will live fine in a kidney-shaped plastic lagoon with a palm tree. And so on...

I'm not asking them to memorize the Tortoise Library or read every thread started by Tom, etc....if they can get this basic crap right, I think we'd be making some HUGE progress.


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## Deac77

I agree that the quiz would be nice and I'll check (on vacation at the moment) when i get back to see exactly what the policy is if I remember right even employees have the right to deny the sell as long as a manger is informed WHY I know I cant write up any of my employees for that nor would I ever and my store still has the lowest animal loss and the highest sells in my district I do worry what will happen when I finish college though...I'd hate to see this town go down hill on our herp standards ;D


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## Happy Tortoise

*I doubt it is CB because my Russian Tortiose was from a Petsmart and he was loaded with a lot of parasites. We got them treated and now he's happy and active. Although it might not be the reason he is loaded with parasites-(it might been the store itself, the bedding, any tort products used by the store) there is a good possibility that they are wild caught.*


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## StudentoftheReptile

Happy Tortoise said:


> *I doubt it is CB because my Russian Tortiose was from a Petsmart and he was loaded with a lot of parasites. We got them treated and now he's happy and active. Although it might not be the reason he is loaded with parasites-(it might been the store itself, the bedding, any tort products used by the store) there is a good possibility that they are wild caught.*



Occam's Razor -He was probably wildcaught.

Congrats on getting him dewormed. I'm sure he's definitely happier now!


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## Terry Allan Hall

StudentoftheReptile said:


> I just thought of a GREAT idea!
> 
> You know how we all go around in circles about how most people suck and take horrible care of their pets, and how there should a test for people to own pets, blah blah blah, etc. Of course, this is not feasible, but I just thought of an alternative.
> 
> Kind of an incentive for consumers and "noobs" to learn more about pets. Have a Quiz in pet stores or something, and if the customer gets every question correct, they get a discount, or giftcard or something. Questions like:
> 
> 1.) Fish, reptiles, and amphibians will only grow to the size of their tank: true or false?
> 2.) If I put my reptile tank by the window, I don't have to buy any lights for it: true or false?
> 3.) As long as I replace the cartridge in my filter, I don't have to do water changes on my aquarium: true or false?
> 4.) A fish's stomach is approximately the size of its eyeball: true or false?
> 
> ...stuff like that. The questions they get wrong, will give the store staff an opportunity to educate them. And there may be a small consolation prize involved...who knows? Because really, the whole point is to dispel all these silly misconceptions about basic small pet husbandry. Obviously, a lot of details to be worked out, but I think the idea has merit.



A  idea, at that!


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