# Our first winter with CDTs/seeking advice



## thatrebecca (Jul 28, 2013)

I hate to admit it on a gorgeous, 85-degree July day when Gomez is stretched out napping under his plywood sun shade and Morticia is dozing under her favorite corner hibiscus plant, but I am starting to think about winter.

This will be our first winter with our juvenile CDTs, who are about 6" (Gomez) and 5" (Morticia). Prior to our adopting them in April, they lived indoors 24/7. Since the last week in June, they have been living outdoors 24/7. Knock on wood they seem healthy and happy, but since this is our first winter together, I'd prefer not to let them brumate.

My tentative plan is to over-winter them, with nights and the rare cold/rainy days spent in Rubbermaids in our backyard shed and warm days spent outside. I have a few questions:

1) What kind of heat source should I get -- a space heater for the shed, CHEs for each Rubbermaid, both, something else? The shed is electrified but not well insulated. The Rubbermaids will be up off the ground -- on metal shelves. This being Southern California, I don't expect it to be too hard to keep it warm and cozy in there.

2) What kinds of temperatures should I be maintaining for them? (Bearing in mind we have lots of of 80-plus-degree winter days here in the San Fernando Valley).

3) How should the frequency of soaks and feeding change? Right now they get 2-3 soaks a week and as much food as they want (weeds, grass, spring mix, flowers, hibiscus leaves, etc.). They also get calcium twice a week. 

3) I understand that they may start to brumate regardless of our efforts to keep them up. My experience with torts so far has been that when they want to sleep, not much is stopping them. Is there anything we can or should do in that circumstance?

Thanks in advance for any help and advice. I know many of you out there have been through many successful winters with your CDTs and I'd love to hear about it.


Oh and here are a few pix of the shed:


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## thatrebecca (Jul 29, 2013)

OK experienced CDT keepers, I know you're out there. Gimme some love.


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## mike taylor (Jul 29, 2013)

I don't keep that specific tortoise. But the shed you have is awesome for wintering tortoises. All you would have to do is move that shelf to anther wall get you some 2/12 lumber and block off the back wall make you a pen . Hang some basking lights and install a heater to keep the shed at 80 f. That is how I got my shed set up for red footed tortoises. 

Sent from my C771 using TortForum mobile app


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## Yvonne G (Jul 29, 2013)

My first thought when I saw the interior of that shed was, "Wow! who keeps their outdoor shed that neat?"

In my opinion, it would be cheaper to heat the rubbermaid tub than to run a space heater for the whole shed. You can use a CHE (ceramic heat emitter) at night and a large watt bulb during the day. Then you can partially cover the tub all around the light/che to keep the cold air from the shed from flowing into the tub. It doesn't look like much, but I use aluminum foil to cover my tubs around the lights. No worry about it catching on fire.


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## thatrebecca (Jul 29, 2013)

mike taylor said:


> I don't keep that specific tortoise. But the shed you have is awesome for wintering tortoises. All you would have to do is move that shelf to anther wall get you some 2/12 lumber and block off the back wall make you a pen . Hang some basking lights and install a heater to keep the shed at 80 f. That is how I got my shed set up for red footed tortoises.
> 
> Sent from my C771 using TortForum mobile app



Ah thanks so much! I'm glad to hear it. As there are two of them and they're still fairly small, I was thinking I'd keep them in separate Rubbermaids to give them their individual space and keep them up off the floor, which I expect will hold onto the cold and damp.



Yvonne G said:


> My first thought when I saw the interior of that shed was, "Wow! who keeps their outdoor shed that neat?"
> 
> In my opinion, it would be cheaper to heat the rubbermaid tub than to run a space heater for the whole shed. You can use a CHE (ceramic heat emitter) at night and a large watt bulb during the day. Then you can partially cover the tub all around the light/che to keep the cold air from the shed from flowing into the tub. It doesn't look like much, but I use aluminum foil to cover my tubs around the lights. No worry about it catching on fire.



Ha! I was waiting for you, Yvonne!  My husband is the neat freak who keeps the shed that way. Bless him. 

Good thought on the CHEs/bulbs versus the space heater. What kind of temps would you aim for for over-wintering CDTs? I haven't used any artificial light or heat source since we adopted them in April, so this aspect of tort-keeping is all new to me. Right now their nighttime temps in their outdoor burrow are usually in 65-70, daytime is 85-95.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 29, 2013)

Since you want them to stay awake and not think about hibernating, you'll need to keep the light on for at least 12 hours during the day. I'd shoot for a temp of around 80F during the day and no cooler than 70F at night. I'm probably not a good one to ask though, as I never measure temperatures. I just have the light on and if they eat, they're warm enough.


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## Arnold_rules (Jul 29, 2013)

thatrebecca said:


> I hate to admit it on a gorgeous, 85-degree July day when Gomez is stretched out napping under his plywood sun shade and Morticia is dozing under her favorite corner hibiscus plant, but I am starting to think about winter.
> 
> This will be our first winter with our juvenile CDTs, who are about 6" (Gomez) and 5" (Morticia). Prior to our adopting them in April, they lived indoors 24/7. Since the last week in June, they have been living outdoors 24/7. Knock on wood they seem healthy and happy, but since this is our first winter together, I'd prefer not to let them brumate.
> 
> ...







Yvonne G said:


> My first thought when I saw the interior of that shed was, "Wow! who keeps their outdoor shed that neat?"
> 
> In my opinion, it would be cheaper to heat the rubbermaid tub than to run a space heater for the whole shed. You can use a CHE (ceramic heat emitter) at night and a large watt bulb during the day. Then you can partially cover the tub all around the light/che to keep the cold air from the shed from flowing into the tub. It doesn't look like much, but I use aluminum foil to cover my tubs around the lights. No worry about it catching on fire.



I had to overwinter my CDT in my house last winter and I agree with Yvonne with a minor exception. Monitor your tempatures in the shed specifically in the rubbermaid tubs. I had a hard time keeping tempatures up to the right levels during the night, yes, even in sunny AZ it gets cold. I supplemented with a small space heater in his area to help with keeping tempatures up.

As far as your routine, I would keep feeding and soaking the same, since you are keeping them awake all winter. You might want to throw in an extra soak because the air is a little drier during the winter, but not necessary. 

They indeed might start to burmate, but as long as the heat stays up and the lights are on at least 12 hours per day, might need to get a UVB bulb for the days they cannot go outside, they should snap out of it. I started overwrinter my CDT about mid September, so caught him before he went into full mode.


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## thatrebecca (Jul 29, 2013)

Arnold_rules said:


> thatrebecca said:
> 
> 
> > I hate to admit it on a gorgeous, 85-degree July day when Gomez is stretched out napping under his plywood sun shade and Morticia is dozing under her favorite corner hibiscus plant, but I am starting to think about winter.
> ...





Thanks Arnold. This is very helpful. I'm thinking I'll probably end up buying the space heater regardless -- even if we don't end up needing it 99% of our winter nights, it's never a bad idea to have one for an extra cold snap. It's also helpful to know about the mid-September timing. I was wondering when I should start bringing them in again at night.


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## thatrebecca (Jul 31, 2013)

OK, as part of my winter prep, I've started doing my research on lighting and CHEs here via some previous posts on the forum, and I'm still a little confused about what to get. A lot of what I've read has been about sullies and RFs, and I assume assume CDT needs are somewhat different. Can anyone tackle these Qs?

1) What wattage CHEs should I get for the Rubbermaids? This is my first time using any kind of artificial light/heat and I'm nervous about how hot those things get. (I still can't wrap my brain around the idea of affixing something hot to a plastic tub and the aluminum foil being enough to protect from fire, even though I see with my own eyes that it works on others' enclosures).

2) What kind of fixtures should I get and where? I'd prefer to pick something inexpensive up at a hardware store if I can, but how do I know it's safe to use?

3) What kind of bulbs do I need for daytime, bearing in mind I expect I'll be able to let the torts outside most days?

4) Can anyone give a specific temp guideline for them for night and day? 

Thanks in advance for your help, gang!


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## Tom (Jul 31, 2013)

I saw this thread a while back and couldn't think of clear concise answers for you. Plus I have been running around like mad lately and haven't had a lot of time to contemplate it.

To prevent your tortoises from wanting to hibernate you are going to need to keep it warm and bright. That is going to be difficult to accomplish in that shed when we have our winter cold spells with nights in the 30s and overcast rainy days in the 50's. CHEs on their own will not be enough, unless you have a large bank of them. Heating just a large tub within the shed, while the rest of the shed is still cold will be tough too. I don't know what to tell you for this other than you'll be burning lots of electricity and good luck. I think an easier solution would be to stick some 2x12 sides on a sheet of ply wood, add some legs and make this your winter indoor enclosure. All you'd need is a couple of regular incandescent basking lamps on one side over a flat rock, and a 48" florescent tube or two hanging over the middle, all set on a timer for 13-14 hours a day. You won't need any night heat inside the house. Put in a water bowl, some substrate and a humid hide, and your tortoises will be stylin'.


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## Arnold_rules (Jul 31, 2013)

thatrebecca said:


> 2) What kind of fixtures should I get and where? I'd prefer to pick something inexpensive up at a hardware store if I can, but how do I know it's safe to use?
> 
> 3) What kind of bulbs do I need for daytime, bearing in mind I expect I'll be able to let the torts outside most days?
> 
> ...



Based on what I did for my CDT over the winter:

As far as fixtures, I used ceramic lined spot lights designed for withstanding the heat of the bulbs. I had one UVB bulb that also created heat for basking 12 hours during the day and a red heat lamp at night.

As far as tempatures, the vet recomended about 90 during the day and no lower than 75 at night. Both the light duration and the heat kept him up during the winter.



Tom said:


> To prevent your tortoises from wanting to hibernate you are going to need to keep it warm and bright. That is going to be difficult to accomplish in that shed when we have our winter cold spells with nights in the 30s and overcast rainy days in the 50's. CHEs on their own will not be enough, unless you have a large bank of them. Heating just a large tub within the shed, while the rest of the shed is still cold will be tough too. I don't know what to tell you for this other than you'll be burning lots of electricity and good luck. I think an easier solution would be to stick some 2x12 sides on a sheet of ply wood, add some legs and make this your winter indoor enclosure. All you'd need is a couple of regular incandescent basking lamps on one side over a flat rock, and a 48" florescent tube or two hanging over the middle, all set on a timer for 13-14 hours a day. You won't need any night heat inside the house. Put in a water bowl, some substrate and a humid hide, and your tortoises will be stylin'.



I agree about the shed, but it can be done. You can use an old bookcase flipped on it's back as a tort table, since they will only be in it part time. I actually built mine as Tom suggested, just used wider boards for the side because mine is full grown and was almost able to scale out of his temporary winter enclosure as it was. The vet suggested newspaper for a substrate, again mine is full grown and is known to cause a dust storm in his outdoor habitat while excavating in his burrow.

I know the cost seems like a lot, but you can check online for people getting out of the reptile hobby and perhaps pick the fixtures and possibly bulbs for cheaper. Also, you can check online retailers to bargain shop.


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## thatrebecca (Jul 31, 2013)

Hmmm. We had the torts inside the house this spring and it didn't work so well, which is why I'm exploring the shed. Our house is 1100 square feet, and the available space for an enclosure is in the laundry/kitchen area. It's a pretty busy space, full of appliances, cooking smells, lights being flipped on and off. A couple times in the spring when the spin cycle started shuddering on the washing machine, poor Gomez peed out of fright. 

However the idea of spending hundreds of dollars on lights and electricity to keep the shed warm this winter is daunting. We can afford it, but it may mean putting off other things we want to do, including making some tort friendly improvements to the yard.

This calls for a planning conference with hubby, whose original vote was to brumate. Harrumph.


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## Arnold_rules (Aug 1, 2013)

thatrebecca said:


> Hmmm. We had the torts inside the house this spring and it didn't work so well, which is why I'm exploring the shed. Our house is 1100 square feet, and the available space for an enclosure is in the laundry/kitchen area. It's a pretty busy space, full of appliances, cooking smells, lights being flipped on and off. A couple times in the spring when the spin cycle started shuddering on the washing machine, poor Gomez peed out of fright.
> 
> However the idea of spending hundreds of dollars on lights and electricity to keep the shed warm this winter is daunting. We can afford it, but it may mean putting off other things we want to do, including making some tort friendly improvements to the yard.
> 
> This calls for a planning conference with hubby, whose original vote was to brumate. Harrumph.



You can always brumate them in a box in the shed where you can monitor them throughout the winter. If they are healthy, then they should be fine to brumate at their ages. Heck, in the wild they would be brumating from the start of their little lives.


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## Tom (Aug 1, 2013)

Hardest part about hibernating here, either in the ground (which I DON'T recommend) or above ground, is the crazy warm spells. I think you almost need a refrigerator set to just the right temp. My garage has a perfect spot that stays 49-55, no matter what our crazy winter weather does. I've hibernated all sorts of temperate animals there and it works perfectly. Its on the concrete under the second story and on the shady side of the house, so it stays remarkably cold and steady in there all winter. You are welcome to stick them in there if you like. I think your shed will get too warm during our weird 85-90 degree winter hot spells, and possibly too cold during our weird winter cold snaps that drop into the low 20s.

Bring the hubby and come see my place.


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## Yvonne G (Aug 1, 2013)

Many years ago the property owner for ALL the property in my neighborhood lived in an OLD shack/house. When he got too old to care for himself he built another house next to his shack for his daughter to live in. Then they subdivided all the property. I now live in the daughter's house and the shack is my over-grown storage shed. There is no electricity in it, it is not insulated, and the temperature inside fluctuates just like the outdoor temp does. However, I have two chest-type freezers in the old house that I use for hibernating tortoises. The freezers are well insulated and so once the temp stabilizes, it doesn't rise or lower according to the temp inside the old house. I have a pencil across one corner so that a very small air space allows a bit of air movement. I have done this for the past 15 years with russian tortoises and desert tortoises. I picked up the freezers at yard sales for free.


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## thatrebecca (Aug 1, 2013)

Arnold_rules said:


> You can always brumate them in a box in the shed where you can monitor them throughout the winter. If they are healthy, then they should be fine to brumate at their ages. Heck, in the wild they would be brumating from the start of their little lives.





Tom said:


> Hardest part about hibernating here, either in the ground (which I DON'T recommend) or above ground, is the crazy warm spells. I think you almost need a refrigerator set to just the right temp. My garage has a perfect spot that stays 49-55, no matter what our crazy winter weather does. I've hibernated all sorts of temperate animals there and it works perfectly. Its on the concrete under the second story and on the shady side of the house, so it stays remarkably cold and steady in there all winter. You are welcome to stick them in there if you like. I think your shed will get too warm during our weird 85-90 degree winter hot spells, and possibly too cold during our weird winter cold snaps that drop into the low 20s.
> 
> Bring the hubby and come see my place.





Yvonne G said:


> Many years ago the property owner for ALL the property in my neighborhood lived in an OLD shack/house. When he got too old to care for himself he built another house next to his shack for his daughter to live in. Then they subdivided all the property. I now live in the daughter's house and the shack is my over-grown storage shed. There is no electricity in it, it is not insulated, and the temperature inside fluctuates just like the outdoor temp does. However, I have two chest-type freezers in the old house that I use for hibernating tortoises. The freezers are well insulated and so once the temp stabilizes, it doesn't rise or lower according to the temp inside the old house. I have a pencil across one corner so that a very small air space allows a bit of air movement. I have done this for the past 15 years with russian tortoises and desert tortoises. I picked up the freezers at yard sales for free.



You guys are all so sweet and so helpful. I may just take you up on that offer, Tom. I'm dying to see your setup in person! And the freezer option sounds very practical, too.

The truth is, brumation scares the heck out of me -- as natural as it is, and as well as it's worked for tortoises for a million years, I can't wrap my head around the idea of their little bodies shutting down for 4-5 months. But maybe I just need to get over that. 

I'm also going to call the man who gave them to us and find out how they spent their previous winters. As I may have mentioned, we got our torts in an odd way -- a neighbor we barely knew dropped them off abruptly one day and said he could no longer care for them. It wasn't quite a stork with a baby basket, but it was pretty close to that. It's been an absolute joy taking care of them, but I don't know much about their lives prior to coming into ours. 

Given what little we knew about them -- and reptiles in general -- the fact that they're as healthy as they are right now is a tribute to this forum. I'd be lost without you guys.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Aug 1, 2013)

Well people I think that is great looking shed . It looks like a office in there


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## thatrebecca (Aug 1, 2013)

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> Well people I think that is great looking shed . It looks like a office in there



Thanks! If only Gomez wanted to write the great Chelonian novel it would be perfect. Sigh.

Well I just talked to G&M's previous owner and learned a few things. In prior winters they brumated in their glass terrarium in his laundry room. Temps fluctuated in the room, and were overall warm (human comfort warm), but the torts never woke up from brumation. He said they went down in late October and woke up in late March, and that Gomez woke up first.

I also learned that they had never had anything to eat but romaine and zucchini for their entire lives (he was shocked to learn about their summer love affair with hibiscus and dandelion). From prior conversations, I know that they had never had a soak or a water dish until they moved in with us, or spent much time outside.

Knowing that they have brumated successfully before -- and in what sounds like less than ideal conditions -- I'm starting to feel better about doing it. Not great, but better.


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## ascott (Aug 2, 2013)

Brumating a tort does not have to be a multi million dollar event for a set up ....there are some important things, dry--quiet--dark--cool (but not freezing) and a tort will do what a tort does when allowed to...

Don't get me wrong, there can be situations (in captive as well as wild) when a brumation can go wrong--however, if you set your brumaters up in a way that allows you to visually peek in on them from time to time, then you can stop a brumating tort in the event something goes less than planned....

I too would not elect to have a tort brumate outdoors in captivity...even though the CDTs reside outdoors the entire tortoise season and do so just fine----I have even had each of the four men here brumate naturally outdoors in the ground and they came up and out just fine....however, I have also been on my hands and knees in a frenzy digging out a resting tort when we had 6 straight days of constant rain and a huge amount of our property was flooded ...right up to the half way point of a tortoise leaning vertically against the wall of their burrow and asleep---that was scary, or the other time that same tort was back filled entirely by gophers during the winter months and I just so happen to get a weird feeling when I looked over towards his burrow--and again down in the mud on my knees peering into what should have been an open burrow to find it back filled solid...so with hand shovel and slow careful digging found him completely packed solid and when I pulled him out his body made a suction noise as I pulled him out ---he also took a deep breath that I could hear--along with the big black widow that was brumating with him in his little air pocket by his butt---ewwww

So, yes, I do support brumation ---however, I support it indoors--they each have their own box all located in a dark closet in a room that has worked out well...and keep in mind, I live just outside of where they are naturally living in the wild---even here, there are precautions that still need to be taken to help support a successful brumation.....

It is funny, the men folk here are starting to show subtle changes the last couple days----I can bet that in a few weeks their eating will begin to slow...they will seem a little less interested in me when I am out (because their food fairy desires will begin to slow in preparation for their rest) they actually give off a feeling of desire to rest, hard to explain---but almost like, well, hard to describe without seeming like I am using human descriptives...they actually seem as though this time is as important/essential to them as the days they began to wake and come out of brumation and the roll they take on all of their awake time...does that make sense? Almost like they expect this part as what they just do...anyways.

You will certainly need to decide one way or the other as to what you will do ---that time of the year is quickly approaching....and either method will require you to set up a plan so that you don't feel rushed and unprepared...you know what I mean?


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## thatrebecca (Aug 2, 2013)

ascott said:


> Brumating a tort does not have to be a multi million dollar event for a set up ....there are some important things, dry--quiet--dark--cool (but not freezing) and a tort will do what a tort does when allowed to...
> 
> Don't get me wrong, there can be situations (in captive as well as wild) when a brumation can go wrong--however, if you set your brumaters up in a way that allows you to visually peek in on them from time to time, then you can stop a brumating tort in the event something goes less than planned....
> 
> ...



I *totally* know what you mean, Angela. That's why I'm starting to think and prepare now. I've read some of your prior posts about brumating your guys outdoors and they scared the bejeezums out of me. As it is I sometimes wake up in the middle of the night now and go check to make sure they're OK (mostly only when it rains, but still).

But after talking with my husband again, we've decided to support some kind of indoor brumation. I'll be reading up and soaking up all the info I can on how to help the torts prepare for their big winter sleep, and taking Tom up on the kind offer of a visit to see how it's done in his torty paradise. 

Any advice on how diet, etc. should be modified pre-brumation is welcome. At this point I'm inclined to feed them to their piggy hearts' delight to fatten them up for the season, but I understand I'll have to taper them off as winter gets closer.


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