# Please Watch, Very Informative Video.



## Ethan D (Aug 6, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WnYHYoR62M&feature=relmfu

I agree completely, i soon hope to get into venomous keeping, need to wait a while to meet the requirements of my permit, however, i can relate this to the python ban, unsuitable owners and sellers spoil the whole hobby, and i hope this doesn't happen to any other species of reptiles. There will be a poll, whether you believe we have the right to keep venomous species of reptiles or not, and whether or not we should be allowed to keep all reptiles, given that we have knowledge on how to keep the animal, and are a responsable owner.


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## ascott (Aug 6, 2012)

The side of me that knows permits and licenses can easily be obtained voted no, no venomous snakes should be kept. 

Now, the other side of my opinion is, if a person is actually regulated---by this I mean, safeguards taken so that the property is properly labeled--in the event of an emergency or accident or environment issue like flooding, fire and such and a person not familiar with the location would not know otherwise that there is a fatal reptile indoors, and the venomous reptile is 100% contained at all times in an area that it _can not_ escape from--then I would be alright with it...I say the couple regulations because people can always have a mess up occur (trip and fall handling the reptile, have a heart attack or such while handling the reptile) and if dealing with a venomous reptile I would not want someone else to suffer as a result of a mess up..


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## Ethan D (Aug 6, 2012)

ascott said:


> The side of me that knows permits and licenses can easily be obtained voted no, no venomous snakes should be kept.
> 
> Now, the other side of my opinion is, if a person is actually regulated---by this I mean, safeguards taken so that the property is properly labeled--in the event of an emergency or accident or environment issue like flooding, fire and such and a person not familiar with the location would not know otherwise that there is a fatal reptile indoors, and the venomous reptile is 100% contained at all times in an area that it _can not_ escape from--then I would be alright with it...I say the couple regulations because people can always have a mess up occur (trip and fall handling the reptile, have a heart attack or such while handling the reptile) and if dealing with a venomous reptile I would not want someone else to suffer as a result of a mess up..



Agreed, some states don't even require a license to own a venomous reptiles, which is by far the worst thing to destroy that hobby. The main reason i would want to keep them is to help with the supply of anti-venom, which is very scarce, and too enjoy the animals, as i do the ones i already have .


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## ascott (Aug 6, 2012)

Nice...

Now, the Mom side of me says, "pay attention to what you are doing, be safe and above all---have fun" ..


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## Nixxy (Aug 6, 2012)

As someone who has handled venomous snakes most of his life, I have to firmly stand by the importance of a license and proper education of the snakes.

I don't own any venomous snakes, but if I did, I would certainly expect the person to make it difficult to obtain. Making me explain, and even demonstrate that I know how to handle it.


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## Ethan D (Aug 7, 2012)

Nixxy said:


> As someone who has handled venomous snakes most of his life, I have to firmly stand by the importance of a license and proper education of the snakes.
> 
> I don't own any venomous snakes, but if I did, I would certainly expect the person to make it difficult to obtain. Making me explain, and even demonstrate that I know how to handle it.



Agreed , to add to that, the only venomous reptile i have ever "handled" was my buddy adams red spitting cobra, will never forget it


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## Nixxy (Aug 7, 2012)

It's an incredible experience to hold a venomous snake. I've held water moccasins, and that's it.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Aug 8, 2012)

I would never take marijuana myself because of the harm it can do, but if someone does want to take it, that's his business.

That's pretty much the same attitude I have toward venomous pets, be they snakes, lizards, spiders, or scorpions. Personally, I think a pet should be an animal that can be kept safely or bond with you, not something that could injure or even kill you at any moment. But if someone wants to keep such an animal, that's his business.


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## mctlong (Aug 8, 2012)

Nixxy said:


> As someone who has handled venomous snakes most of his life, I have to firmly stand by the importance of a license and proper education of the snakes.
> 
> I don't own any venomous snakes, but if I did, I would certainly expect the person to make it difficult to obtain. Making me explain, and even demonstrate that I know how to handle it.



I agree, with the proper safegaurds, private owners should be permitted to have venomous animals. The owner must be able to demonstrate not only proper care of the animal, but also a firm understanding of the risks and consequences of having a deadly animal in their home. Folks can risk their own lives, in my opinion, as long as they understand that they're risking their lives and as long as their activity doesn't harm others. 

I do not think venomous animals should be permitted in homes with children or others who are too young or incapable of understanding the risks and consequences of living around venomous animals.


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## Madkins007 (Aug 8, 2012)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> I would never take marijuana myself because of the harm it can do, but if someone does want to take it, that's his business.
> 
> That's pretty much the same attitude I have toward venomous pets, be they snakes, lizards, spiders, or scorpions. Personally, I think a pet should be an animal that can be kept safely or bond with you, not something that could injure or even kill you at any moment. But if someone wants to keep such an animal, that's his business.



Except your marijuana cannot escape and put neighbors at risk, nor does a rather minor mishap with marijuana cause a potentially fatal injury that the local EMS system might not be able to handle and you are almost certainly not insured for, adding to the cost of services for me. (Not a common situation, certainly, but it does happen.)

I always find myself stuck in this sort of discussion. If even MOST keepers were good and smart I would not worry about it, but it has been my experience that there are a lot of complete idiots doing this sort of thing- even people you would SWEAR know what they are doing often reveal themselves to be idiots all too often.

Government has a certain obligation to protect us- WHERE we draw the line is never going to be decided to all of our satisfactions.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Aug 8, 2012)

I have never had any involvement with venomous, however i find it interesting!


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## StudentoftheReptile (Aug 8, 2012)

I have to admit, I'm with Mark...as much as I am very pro-reptile ownership, venomous keeping leaves me with some mixed feelings.

Fundamentally, I believe that every person has the privilege to keep and own whatever they wish, as long as they do so properly, in terms of ideal husbandry to the animals, safety to themselves and others, etc. Who decides all of that (especially the latter) is where things get murky sometimes.

Regardless of what is shown on the news, the demographic of the hot community is not dissimilar to that of gun owners or those with driver's licenses. The responsible faction that knows what they're doing outnumbers the dummies. There are general accepted practices for keeping venomous snakes: lockable, secure caging, no free-handling unless absolutely necessary, having an emergency protocol in place in case you do get bit, etc. Unfortunately, the dummies is how the entire community is judged.

Mark also brings up another point. When comparing keeping venomous snakes to guns or illegal substances, a gun can't crawl out of the gun case and load itself and shoot somebody who happens to step on it in the hallway. Nor can a stash of marijuana slither out of your drawer and shove itself down someone else's throat.
----
I once considered getting into this aspect of the hobby myself several years ago, but decided against it because I lacked the resources to keep venomous properly. I did want them in my house, and I did not have the means to build a separate building to house them. Also, I did want to risk my insurance policy dropping me in the event if I did get bit because they discovered I was keeping venomous snakes.

If someone truly knows what they're doing and/or is willing to take the necessary steps to get into hots, I do advocate their right and privilege to do so. But this is one part of the herp hobby I feel warrants some degree of regulation.

In Alabama, its illegal to keep non-native venomous (which really sucks because I would LOVE to have a gila monster!). However, there are no regulations for keeping native venomous, which means I could go out tonight and catch a cottonmouth or an eastern diamondback, bring it home and stick it in a 55-gallon tank with bungee cords around the top "for security." Not that I would do that, of course; just showing that some states should probably up the ante on regulation.

Would help with rattlesnake round-ups, too.

This is how anyone SHOULD get into hots: http://studentofthereptile.wordpress.com/k-12-of-venomous-keeping/

Here is a recent radio show I did about hots as well: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/aark/2012/07/29/some-like-it-hot


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Aug 8, 2012)

Madkins007 said:


> Except your marijuana cannot escape and put neighbors at risk, nor does a rather minor mishap with marijuana cause a potentially fatal injury that the local EMS system might not be able to handle and you are almost certainly not insured for, adding to the cost of services for me. (Not a common situation, certainly, but it does happen.)
> 
> I always find myself stuck in this sort of discussion. If even MOST keepers were good and smart I would not worry about it, but it has been my experience that there are a lot of complete idiots doing this sort of thing- even people you would SWEAR know what they are doing often reveal themselves to be idiots all too often.
> 
> Government has a certain obligation to protect us- WHERE we draw the line is never going to be decided to all of our satisfactions.



Note: it would not be my marijuana, because I have never smoked nor will I smoke marijuana. I was simply speaking in general terms.

Nevertheless, I definitely see your point. In fact, you have convinced me that the two situations are rather different. A pot smoker alone in his own basement does damage only to himself, but a careless venomous snake keeper alone in his own basement has the potential to kill many others if his snake gets loose.

I don't know what the solution is, though. Education? Regulation? Do we have to set up a government bureau that will deal with handling permits for poisonous pets? And do we punish people who don't comply. Maybe that's necessary, but there are already so many regulations and licenses out there to keep track of. Individuals may pay for the application, but society pays for the agency. Is this really that big of a problem that we need to regulate it?

I don't know. Teach me.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Aug 8, 2012)

Of course, one could argue that the gun in hands of someone irresponsible or the substance abuser who decides to get behind the wheel of a car represents significantly greater risk to public safety (not to mention the greater chance of either scenario taking place) than a venomous snake (escaped captive or otherwise).


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Aug 8, 2012)

StudentoftheReptile said:


> Of course, one could argue that the gun in hands of someone irresponsible or the substance abuser who decides to get behind the wheel of a car represents significantly greater risk to public safety (not to mention the greater chance of either scenario taking place) than a venomous snake (escaped captive or otherwise).



Hmm ... yes, but guns are (arguably) intended for personal or national defense, while venomous pets are intended for entertainment or education. Seems like more of a right-to-privacy issue than a weapons-related issue.


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## Nixxy (Aug 8, 2012)

Well, I get your term. But let's just remember, smoking pot has pretty minimal effects compared to the effects of being bit by a highly venomous snake.

But I know what you mean. 

A responsible handler and caretaker would never let there snakes be at any risk of getting out. But, to be entirely fair..most places have quite a few venomous snakes locally as it is.

You live out west, you don't have to look hard to find a rattler. You live down south, you'll find copperheads and moccasins everywhere. Are they as venomous as say, a taipan or boomslang? Of course not. But they are venomous nontheless, and highly dangerous.


I've handled _wild_ venomous snakes. I cannot speak from experience as a handler of captive breads, but I'm not going to lie to you...Even the most tame and docile CB venomous can still bite and will. You make the slightest mistake, and you can be killed. You need to have the right antivenoms, the right training, the right knowledge, and equipment to even consider taking up this practice. My friend has venomous snakes, but he is also a licensed herpetologist and his job is animal safety and removal (Think Turtleman / Irwin). 

Long story short...You need training and equipment. Only then should you be able to get one. If you can't show this to the breeder and demonstrate you can handle the snake (Because lets face it, you are going to have to handle it occasionally), then you shouldn't be able to obtain one.


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## Ethan D (Aug 8, 2012)

Nixxy said:


> Well, I get your term. But let's just remember, smoking pot has pretty minimal effects compared to the effects of being bit by a highly venomous snake.
> 
> But I know what you mean.
> 
> ...




I just find it disturbing how easy it is to get a venomous snake without a permit, cobras, king browns, mambas, tiger snakes, etc.... just boggles me.


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## Nixxy (Aug 8, 2012)

Yeah, unfortunately.

Go on a website, place an order. =|

They basically tell you that you are responsible for any state laws you may or may not break on a lot of 'em.

Not to mention the ol' Craigslist. I've seen quite a few even in my small neck of the woods.


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## Ethan D (Aug 8, 2012)

Nixxy said:


> Yeah, unfortunately.
> 
> Go on a website, place an order. =|
> 
> ...



Same, i see monocleds for at least 100$, rattlers for 25ish, gaboons for around 75, red spitters for 150-200, black mambas for 300, etc, taipans are even around 600$, it just bugs me you can post stuff like that on fauna or any website and have one of the most dangerous animals in the world at your door ( Airport) in 1 day. I don't have a problem with venomous keeping, i just don't like the stupids that but these snakes for looks or because they are *Cool*, because quite frankly, thats how accidents and sadly deaths happen. I myself want to get into venomous keeping, for the scientific end of it, and for the personal end of it, but i know that i need a lot more experience with venomous or at least start with venomoids, to get used to the temperaments, but, there will always be people that buy cheap venoms for fun, or even, and i have seen this, people buy rattlers just to feed them to kingsnakes! THAT is sickening to me.


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## Nixxy (Aug 8, 2012)

I'd like to know how cool it is when you get bit by that gaboon or mamba. :|

Plus, a taipan..that's the most venomous snake on the planet. Thankfully, they are pretty docile. But they are still able to bite and will if you mess with one. Good luck finding antivenom for it. If you can't properly handle it or have the right knowledge, good luck on extracting for antivenom.


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## Ethan D (Aug 8, 2012)

Nixxy said:


> I'd like to know how cool it is when you get bit by that gaboon or mamba. :|
> 
> Plus, a taipan..that's the most venomous snake on the planet. Thankfully, they are pretty docile. But they are still able to bite and will if you mess with one. Good luck finding antivenom for it. If you can't properly handle it or have the right knowledge, good luck on extracting for antivenom.



Exactly, most venomous keepers i know have a good supply of antivenom for themselves for the animals they keep until they can get to a hospital which i think is really smart, its almost suicidal not to with some species people keep.


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## Nixxy (Aug 8, 2012)

I think everyone should watch Fatal Attractions in addition to everything we've mentioned before getting one. 

They also need knowledge of each individual type of snake. For example, whether the snake is rear fanged, front fanged, their type of venom, etc. 

Another is that some snakes, such as the short and stubby adders require different handling methods. You also need to know the range they can reach you from when handling, as each is different.

I guess a good way to put it is, don't do stuff like this (Yes I know it's not a snake) if you don't know what you are doing.


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## Ethan D (Aug 8, 2012)

Nixxy said:


> I think everyone should watch Fatal Attractions in addition to everything we've mentioned before getting one.
> 
> They also need knowledge of each individual type of snake. For example, whether the snake is rear fanged, front fanged, their type of venom, etc.
> 
> ...



Yeah, to me, hemotoxin in my opinion sounds like a harsher way to go then neurotoxin, but thats my opinion, i know ABOUT most of the venomous snake species, but i have only HANDLED ONE, a Red Spitting Cobra, which, was an amazing experience i will never forget, and got me interested in venomous. It's always a risk no matter what animals you keep, be it dogs, cats, snakes, tortoises, etc....., each come with their own care, risks, attitudes, price, and rewards, its just a matter of what the keeper looks for in an animal, if you want something you can hold and interact with on a high daily basis, venomous snakes, and arboreal snakes aren't for you.


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## Madkins007 (Aug 8, 2012)

Nixxy said:


> (snip)
> A responsible handler and caretaker would never let there snakes be at any risk of getting out. But, to be entirely fair..most places have quite a few venomous snakes locally as it is.
> 
> You live out west, you don't have to look hard to find a rattler. You live down south, you'll find copperheads and moccasins everywhere. Are they as venomous as say, a taipan or boomslang? Of course not. But they are venomous nontheless, and highly dangerous.
> (snip)



The problem I have with this comment is that most hospitals in 'hot' locations stock anti-venins for those species, but that is NOT going to help when some kid is tagged by an exotic species that no one around can even reliably IDENTIFY, even assuming they catch the dang thing.

Another point to consider- you may live in a place infested with hot locals, but only a small handful of people get bit- kids, hunters, and people who handle snakes. People are fairly safe from bites from local snakes because you just learn how to avoid conflicts- don't hike THERE, and don't stick your hands in those rocks over there, and of course, most local snakes don't particularly want to live too close to people.

However, toss an escaped cobra in the mix and all bets are off. 



Ethan D said:


> (snip)
> Exactly, most venomous keepers i know have a good supply of antivenom for themselves for the animals they keep until they can get to a hospital which i think is really smart, its almost suicidal not to with some species people keep.



Everyone's experience is different, but... 

I used to know a couple people who kept 'hots', and said they had the antivenin for them. I found out that they had cheapo generic stuff that would not even cover their most dangerous specimens, and the stuff was way out of date. One of the 'gentlemen' did not even have any syringes on hand to inject the stuff with! One vial of the stuff can cost $130-$1,000 depending on the species needed, and you often need several vials for effective treatment. 

Even hospitals and zoos have trouble keeping their stocks fresh and complete. If I was one of these guys neighbors, I don't think I would sleep any better because they claimed to have some anti-venin on hand. 





GeoTerraTestudo said:


> (snip)
> I don't know what the solution is, though. Education? Regulation? Do we have to set up a government bureau that will deal with handling permits for poisonous pets? And do we punish people who don't comply. Maybe that's necessary, but there are already so many regulations and licenses out there to keep track of. Individuals may pay for the application, but society pays for the agency. Is this really that big of a problem that we need to regulate it?
> 
> I don't know. Teach me.



I know- I don't know a great answer either, but I have long thought that one possible route would be to create 'tiers' of animals-

TIER 1- Keep with no permit or special consideration. This would include most pet shop pets.

TIER 2- Keep with simple local registration to ensure a few basic needs and safety regulations are met- such as rabies shots. This would be cats, dogs, and small 'farm animals' in some places. This is also where I would classify most local wild animals- making you get a permit or something from the local game and parks department.

TIER 3- Need to get a slightly more complicated permit or certification that involves making sure you have the right precautions and facility to do this- sort of like getting a desert tortoises in many places. I would put animals in this category that would be an environmental risk if they got loose, or that can pose other local hazards but are not inherently dangerous- big snakes, horses, livestock, things like ostriches or exotic small cats, etc.

TIER 4- Basically making you a 'mini-zoo', you would agree to a fairly strict set of rules for what you have on hand, permits or insurance needed, etc. This would be for animals that pose a risk to others, or that there needs to be better control of for some valid reason. hot snakes, big cats, wolves...

TIER 5- Can't have, can't get, don't ask animals such as very endangered, very dangerous, etc. Here in the US this would be Bald Eagles, grizzlies, etc.

The thing is, in my mind, the basic idea here already exists. It just needs to be improved and tightened, and also made a bit more fair across the US.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (Aug 8, 2012)

That actually sounds like a pretty good system. And I suppose it wouldn't be too hard or expensive to incorporate it into existing infrastructure.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Aug 9, 2012)

Nixxy said:


> A responsible handler and caretaker would never let there snakes be at any risk of getting out. But, to be entirely fair..most places have quite a few venomous snakes locally as it is.
> 
> You live out west, you don't have to look hard to find a rattler. You live down south, you'll find copperheads and moccasins everywhere. Are they as venomous as say, a taipan or boomslang? Of course not. But they are venomous nontheless, and highly dangerous.



Yeah, there's a common saying among the hot community:

"What's the most venomous snake in the world?"
"The one that just bit you."


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## Ethan D (Aug 9, 2012)

StudentoftheReptile said:


> Nixxy said:
> 
> 
> > A responsible handler and caretaker would never let there snakes be at any risk of getting out. But, to be entirely fair..most places have quite a few venomous snakes locally as it is.
> ...



yup, viperkeeper says that a lot XD.


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