# baby desert tortoise or not?



## AmordeAbba (Nov 15, 2014)

I'm in Long Beach, CA which is a very urban city & yesterday in my backyard on the grass... I found this little guy/girl. I've been trying to find out what it is and so far it seems to be some kind of a desert turtle. It looks like a hatchling. I was reading that it is illegal to keep "wildlife" as pets but at the same time...it was in my yard and I wasn't going to just leave it because my cat was about to start pouncing on it. It's about the size of a half dollar. There is NO way I'm going to put in back outside and leave it so please don't tell me that. I want to know if anyone can identify the actual type of turtle this is and where I can get some info on taking care if it. I used to have 2 box turtles for 11 years and someone else owns them now, so I'm not 100% clueless about them...but at the same time, I know there are different requirements for different turtles especially since this is still a baby. I'm still so lost in how he got there. There are no ponds around here, not lakes...I'm in a busy area where he could have easily got stepped on or snached up my a raccoon, opossum, cat, etc....so hopefully someone can bring their expert advice and help me out. I was going to take him to the reptile store and just let them take care of him but after sleeping on it I think I'll take care of him. (Depending on if I can get some good advice here.) Thanks in advance! I'll answer any more questions if needed.


----------



## Yellow Turtle01 (Nov 15, 2014)

Wow, that's literally a hatcling, it hasn't even absorbed to yolk sak all the way yet! That's a tortoise, not a turtle. He does NOT live in water.
I don't know what type, but I do know many desert tort species are protected and it's illegal to remove them from the wild! Hopefully someone will know more, like @Tom or @Yvonne G.


----------



## AmordeAbba (Nov 15, 2014)

Yellow Turtle01 said:


> Wow, that's literally a hatcling, it hasn't even absorbed to yolk sak all the way yet! That's a tortoise, not a turtle. He does NOT live in water.
> I don't know what type, but I do know many desert tort species are protected and it's illegal to remove them from the wild! Hopefully someone will know more, like @Tom or @Yvonne G.




Yeah, I had a feeling it would be illegal to keep him. 
So I'll probably take him in to the reptile store and ask them what to do or if they can take care of it.


----------



## russian/sulcata/tortoise (Nov 15, 2014)

I'm really against taking tortoises from the wild, release him somewhere close to where you found him. thats what i would do.


----------



## Yvonne G (Nov 15, 2014)

Yes, it's a desert tortoise. More than likely, a bird dropped him in your yard. Birds pick up baby tortoises then drop them from a high distance to break them open.

Since you found the tortoise in your yard, it is ok for you to keep it. But when it gets big enough and you're sure it's going to live, you can apply for a permit. No fee, and easy to get.

Don Williams in Bakersfield has written a very good care sheet for desert tortoise keepers:

http://www.donsdeserttortoises.com/2.html


----------



## Yvonne G (Nov 15, 2014)

russian/sulcata/tortoise said:


> I'm really against taking tortoises from the wild, release him somewhere close to where you found him. thats what i would do.



No! Don't release him. It is against the law to release tortoises in California. If you lived in the desert and it would be natural for baby tortoises to show up in your yard, then ok, leave him there, but this is an imported baby. It is ok for you to care for it and apply for a permit to keep it.

I imagine at one time, many, many years ago, before SoCal exploded population-wise, there may have been a native desert tortoise population in Long Beach. But there sure isn't now. That baby is not native to your area of California.


----------



## russian/sulcata/tortoise (Nov 15, 2014)

Yvonne G said:


> No! Don't release him. It is against the law to release tortoises in California. If you lived in the desert and it would be natural for baby tortoises to show up in your yard, then ok, leave him there, but this is an imported baby. It is ok for you to care for it and apply for a permit to keep it.


oh...... (still doesn't seem right) i agree with this law if it was an adult desert tortoise that has spent most of his life in captivity, an older tortoise like that would have a harder time surviving in the wild and it could pass diseases to wild desert tortoises. but why can't baby tortoise that have been in captivity for a day be released?


----------



## AmordeAbba (Nov 15, 2014)

I found this good help....
http://www.tortoise.org/general/descare.html


----------



## AmordeAbba (Nov 15, 2014)

Yvonne G said:


> Yes, it's a desert tortoise. More than likely, a bird dropped him in your yard. Birds pick up baby tortoises then drop them from a high distance to break them open.
> 
> Since you found the tortoise in your yard, it is ok for you to keep it. But when it gets big enough and you're sure it's going to live, you can apply for a permit. No fee, and easy to get.
> 
> ...



Wow okay! Reading it now! Thank you.


----------



## Tom (Nov 15, 2014)

russian/sulcata/tortoise said:


> oh...... (still doesn't seem right) i agree with this law if it was an adult desert tortoise that has spent most of his life in captivity, an older tortoise like that would have a harder time surviving in the wild and it could pass diseases to wild desert tortoises. but why can't baby tortoise that have been in captivity for a day be released?



For one thing it would almost certainly die if she drove it to the desert and turned it loose somewhere. The is not a wild caught baby. This is a captive bred baby. Long Beach is nowhere near DT territory.

One day in captivity is long enough to contract diseases that could infect and kill and entire wild population.


----------



## AmordeAbba (Nov 15, 2014)

Tom said:


> For one thing it would almost certainly die if she drove it to the desert and turned it loose somewhere. The is not a wild caught baby. This is a captive bred baby. Long Beach is nowhere near DT territory.
> 
> One day in captivity is long enough to contract diseases that could infect and kill and entire wild population.




So in a nutshell, what should I do to care for this hatchling?


----------



## Tom (Nov 15, 2014)

AmordeAbba said:


> I'm in Long Beach, CA which is a very urban city & yesterday in my backyard on the grass... I found this little guy/girl. I've been trying to find out what it is and so far it seems to be some kind of a desert turtle. It looks like a hatchling. I was reading that it is illegal to keep "wildlife" as pets but at the same time...it was in my yard and I wasn't going to just leave it because my cat was about to start pouncing on it. It's about the size of a half dollar. There is NO way I'm going to put in back outside and leave it so please don't tell me that. I want to know if anyone can identify the actual type of turtle this is and where I can get some info on taking care if it. I used to have 2 box turtles for 11 years and someone else owns them now, so I'm not 100% clueless about them...but at the same time, I know there are different requirements for different turtles especially since this is still a baby. I'm still so lost in how he got there. There are no ponds around here, not lakes...I'm in a busy area where he could have easily got stepped on or snached up my a raccoon, opossum, cat, etc....so hopefully someone can bring their expert advice and help me out. I was going to take him to the reptile store and just let them take care of him but after sleeping on it I think I'll take care of him. (Depending on if I can get some good advice here.) Thanks in advance! I'll answer any more questions if needed.



What you have there is a CA Desert Tortoise hatchling. They hatch this time of year out in the desert and then almost immediately go into hibernation. Sometime they hatch in their nest chamber and stay in there together and hibernate, and then emerge all together the next spring.

Most likely one of your neighbors has a pair and this baby was able to squeeze into your yard. It is perfectly legal to keep them. It is not legal to go out to the desert and collect one. You are supposed to have a permit. You get the permit through your local CTTC chapter and as Yvonne said, it is simple and free. However, they won't want to issue you a permit until your baby is 2-3 years old. The reason is that most of them don't survive their first two years. Sadly this is due to the bad advice that _they_ dispense on how to care for them. Almost everything you read on the internet tells you all about how to dehydrate and stunt them. Following their advice will eventually result in bladder or kidney stones, which is a common problem with this species. I recommend you not follow their advice. I've raised dozens of DT hatchlings over many years and not a one of mine had ever died. Instead they thrive and grow. The problem is that their housing recommendations are based on assumptions of above ground weather in the desert. But these guys don't just walk around all day in the scorching desert sun above ground. They live in burrows under ground. Dehydration is the number one killer of captive DTs. Daily soaks in warm shallow water will really help to keep your baby alive and well.

I typed this up for russian tortoises, but care, housing and feeding is very similar for the two different species. If you start your little baby like this, he will thrive: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/

Here is a thread with some outdoor housing ideas for days with nice weather:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/semi-underground-russian-box.98590/page-2

Here is what NOT to do:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/


One thing to be cautious of in your area as your tortoise grow and spends more time outside is your cold clammy beach weather. It is not good for them to live near the coast. Your indoor housing will solve this problem and the tortoise can go outside on warm sunny days. As it gets older and bigger, the addition of a heated night box will allow him to live outside full time.

Good luck. I hope you have lots of questions.


----------



## Tom (Nov 15, 2014)

AmordeAbba said:


> So in a nutshell, what should I do to care for this hatchling?



Click on the links above. Care sheet is there for you.


----------



## Ciri (Nov 15, 2014)

The Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum has excellent info compiled by reptile specialist veterinarian who has cared for the museums desert tortoises for 35 years:

http://www.desertmuseum.org/programs/tap_tortcare.php

the San Diego Turtle and Tortoise Society is a great organization:

http://www.sdturtle.org/public_documents/sdtts_goodandbadgardenplants.pdf#!care-sheets/c217k

This is a brochure listing lots of really healthy native foods for desert tortoises:
http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/tortoise/documents/NativePlantsforDesertTortoises_2008.pdf

a good source of seeds (they even have a desert tortoise wildflower mix):
http://shop.nativeseeds.org/pages/seeds

I hope I'm not overwhelming you with information.

Good luck with your desert tortoise.


----------



## AmordeAbba (Nov 15, 2014)

Ciri said:


> The Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum has excellent info compiled by reptile specialist veterinarian who has cared for the museums desert tortoises for 35 years:
> 
> http://www.desertmuseum.org/programs/tap_tortcare.php
> 
> ...





No no I need all the info I can get! Thank you so much!


----------



## AmordeAbba (Nov 15, 2014)

Tom said:


> Click on the links above. Care sheet is there for you.


 Wow you're awesome! Thank you, and yes I am sure I'll have lots of questions!


----------



## Tom (Nov 15, 2014)

Keep in mind that most government sponsored care sheets, like the one Ciri linked above, often have recommendations that will lead to the death of your tortoise. The author of the first link above even states that "... some mortality can be expected, but survival is usually considerably higher than in the wild."
This is not acceptable to me. I'm not striving for a "survival" rate higher than that of the wild. I'm striving for not only 100% survival, but I want all of mine to _thrive,_ not just survive.

Also keep in mind that what works in the AZ desert might not be best for Long Beach, CA.


----------



## phebe121 (Nov 15, 2014)

I say keep him hes just a baby now i dont think this goes for everything sometimes the law sucks and it just has to be broken i am not in any way shape or form telling you to brake the law but when it come to saving a baby animal of anykind as long as you know you can and will do everything possible to give it the best life i say go for it and we are the only place that knows where you got him so take good care of that little guy and tell us a name alrady


----------



## AmordeAbba (Nov 15, 2014)

phebe121 said:


> I say keep him hes just a baby now i dont think this goes for everything sometimes the law sucks and it just has to be broken i am not in any way shape or form telling you to brake the law but when it come to saving a baby animal of anykind as long as you know you can and will do everything possible to give it the best life i say go for it and we are the only place that knows where you got him so take good care of that little guy and tell us a name alrady




Well, I let my oldest daughter name him/her & she chose Tiddles. I would have chose something else...but Tiddle's sounds like a good gender neutral name.


----------



## AmordeAbba (Nov 15, 2014)

Tom said:


> Keep in mind that most government sponsored care sheets, like the one Ciri linked above, often have recommendations that will lead to the death of your tortoise. The author of the first link above even states that "... some mortality can be expected, but survival is usually considerably higher than in the wild."
> This is not acceptable to me. I'm not striving for a "survival" rate higher than that of the wild. I'm striving for not only 100% survival, but I want all of mine to _thrive,_ not just survive.
> 
> Also keep in mind that what works in the AZ desert might not be best for Long Beach, CA.




Good points, I'm still reading what you have suggested.


----------



## Ciri (Nov 15, 2014)

For hatchlings the care sheets I gave you links for don't address how often to soak the baby tortoise. A constant source of clean water in a very shallow dish is very important. I find hatchlings are in and out of the water all day. The water needs to be shallow enough that the hatchling can easily breathe while sitting in the water. The water should go up to no more than one third the height of the tortoise's shell. (For a newborn, about a quarter of an inch is usually enough.) the dish will need to be sanitized daily. I use ceramic dishes that the tortoise can climb in and out of. I usually get really small ones from Crate & Barrel, as they are usually a lot cheaper than pet store dishes. I wash them in the dishwasher on the heated drying cycle which will sanitize it. You can also use a bleach and water mixture – just soak the dish for 20 minutes or so, then rinse really well with water. You can also use a plastic lid from a food container to soak her in (this way it will be made of food grade plastic so is safer). It can be hard to find a dish tiny enough for such a little newborn.

While there may be differences of opinion about how warm the warm end of the plastic bin or terrarium should be, it is important that they don't get overheated. Over 95°F for too long can cause brain damage. I have usually made the warm area 85°F to 90°F. This has worked quite well.

It's great that you already have box turtle experience. I got box turtles first, and it helped me in understanding how to pick up on my tortoise's expressions. And I have to say, Tiddles is really, really cute!


----------



## AmordeAbba (Nov 15, 2014)

Tom said:


> What you have there is a CA Desert Tortoise hatchling. They hatch this time of year out in the desert and then almost immediately go into hibernation. Sometime they hatch in their nest chamber and stay in there together and hibernate, and then emerge all together the next spring.
> 
> Most likely one of your neighbors has a pair and this baby was able to squeeze into your yard. It is perfectly legal to keep them. It is not legal to go out to the desert and collect one. You are supposed to have a permit. You get the permit through your local CTTC chapter and as Yvonne said, it is simple and free. However, they won't want to issue you a permit until your baby is 2-3 years old. The reason is that most of them don't survive their first two years. Sadly this is due to the bad advice that _they_ dispense on how to care for them. Almost everything you read on the internet tells you all about how to dehydrate and stunt them. Following their advice will eventually result in bladder or kidney stones, which is a common problem with this species. I recommend you not follow their advice. I've raised dozens of DT hatchlings over many years and not a one of mine had ever died. Instead they thrive and grow. The problem is that their housing recommendations are based on assumptions of above ground weather in the desert. But these guys don't just walk around all day in the scorching desert sun above ground. They live in burrows under ground. Dehydration is the number one killer of captive DTs. Daily soaks in warm shallow water will really help to keep your baby alive and well.
> 
> ...








Thank you for all your help! 
*Is the eating for the Russian Tortoise the same for the one I have? I don't see a lot of people talking about the same kind that I have found and mine has not eaten anything yet. 
*So far I have just placed him/her in a large plastic tub with some grass, cut carrots, and flowers from my garden (no chemicals on them) at least until I can go to the store later and get what I need.





*Also do I need to be concerned about it hibernating or anything because I see that some do that and some don't.


----------



## DWB (Nov 15, 2014)

AmordeAbba, Congrats, what a beautiful baby! My tort story is amazingly like yours, you have to read it! Now, just over a year later, my tort is thriving and growing daily, my wife and I are members of our local CTTC chapter. You, like myself, have been blessed with a beautiful gift. It may seem as though that your tort was extremely lucky you found it(so true), but you will find that _you_ are the lucky one, to have one of these shelled miracles enter your life. Dave

My story: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/howdy-from-my-sulcata.82354/


----------



## AmordeAbba (Nov 15, 2014)

DWB said:


> AmordeAbba, Congrats, what a beautiful baby! My tort story is amazingly like yours, you have to read it! Now, just over a year later, my tort is thriving and growing daily, my wife and I are members of our local CTTC chapter. You, like myself, have been blessed with a beautiful gift. It may seem as though that your tort was extremely lucky you found it(so true), but you will find that _you_ are the lucky one, to have one of these shelled miracles enter your life. Dave
> 
> My story: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/howdy-from-my-sulcata.82354/




Wow! Awesome story! I did the same thing too when I found this little guy! I googled "I found a turtle" LOL I was surprised to see how many people have the same encounters! Yes I see it as a blessing as well. I haven't found too much on CA desert tortoise though. This is an exciting new journey that's for sure! So glad I came across this forum. There are forums for everything these days so I typed in "turtle forum" and came across this one ! Everyone has been wonderful help so far! I'm really happy.


----------



## Tom (Nov 15, 2014)

AmordeAbba said:


> Thank you for all your help!
> *Is the eating for the Russian Tortoise the same for the one I have? I don't see a lot of people talking about the same kind that I have found and mine has not eaten anything yet.
> *So far I have just placed him/her in a large plastic tub with some grass, cut carrots, and flowers from my garden (no chemicals on them) at least until I can go to the store later and get what I need.
> View attachment 104848
> ...



Diet for DTs and russians is very similar. I might lean toward a little more succulents, cactus and grass with a DT, but all the weeds, flowers and leaves are the same. Your baby might not be eating yet, because his temperature is too low without a heat lamp and because he is still adjusting to his new life. Also, being a brand new hatchling, they receive substinance from their yolk sac. Even though it has absorbed into the body cavity, they are still deriving nutrition from it at this stage. This will also reduce appetite for a while longer. I wouldn't offer carrots to a hatchling. Too high in sugar and it will mess with his intestinal tract while he's just trying to establish some good gut flora and fauna. Small amounts mixed with other foods are okay for older ones once in a while though.

Hibernation is a controversial topic. Opinons vary widely, and neither side is necessarily right or wrong. Personally, I would skip hibernation until at least next year for this new hatchling. Just set him up inside the right way, and use a safe outdoor enclosure for our nicer warm winter days.

Here is another diet sheet I made for sulcatas. There is a list of a whole bunch of good stuff, and you can just skip over the text emphasizing grass for sulcatas. Some grass is good for DTs too, but they don't need as much as sulcatas.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/


----------



## Yvonne G (Nov 16, 2014)

Ciri said:


> ... it is important that they don't get overheated. Over 95°F for too long can cause brain damage.



I'm curious why you think this. You do realize, don't you, that your own brain is constantly at 98.6F degrees. I realize that humans are not reptiles, however, I don't think being able to warm up a cold-blooded animal's inner core to 100F is harmful.


----------



## Ciri (Nov 16, 2014)

From the Arizona game and Fish website, information on caring for desert tortoises:

"Shelter temperatures should always be kept below 90°F because a tortoise can overheat and suffer brain damage."

source:
http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/tortoise/burrow.shtml

If it's hotter it wouldn't seem to matter, as long as the tortoise can walk away from the heat. However, hatchlings do tend to flip themselves frequently as they learn to navigate the world in their new body. Sometimes they do end up stuck upside down, and if they overheat because they are underneath a light that is too hot, or outside in direct sun in the summer, they are in danger. Of course, it could cause not only brain damage, but death. I'd just rather be on the safe side, since temperatures in the 80s will activate their immune system, and their appetite. So in my experience, I haven't seen the need to create temperatures over 90° indoors.


----------



## Ciri (Nov 16, 2014)

Yvonne, I originally found that information on this website where the care sheet is written by my reptile specialist veterinarian who has 35 years of experience caring for the desert museum's desert tortoises, as well as many more tortoises in his private practice. (I couldn't find this at first – it's a long detailed care sheet.):

see: *WARM WEATHER CARE
"*During the summer the burrow (den) must have afternoon shade and the interior can not exceed 90°F. Otherwise the tortoise may overheat and be subject to brain damage!*"*

Source:
http://www.desertmuseum.org/programs/tap_tortcare.php


----------



## Yvonne G (Nov 16, 2014)

That site is talking about the SHELTER for the tortoise. In other words, inside the hiding place. A tortoise needs to be able to go into his hiding place and either warm up or cool down (depending upon the weather). I'm sure that site was talking about keeping your tortoise outside with a shelter, and not talking about an indoor habitat. The temperature directly under the light in and indoor habitat, should be at least 100F degrees. If a tortoise wants to warm up outdoors, he'll sit in the sun. He gets very warm in the sun, then he moves off to a cooler area. This is what he needs to be able to do in an indoor enclosure too. Sit under the light or at the side of where the light shines down and get warmed up to 100F or so clear down to his inner core. Then he moves off and either eats or goes into his shelter. This is why we suggest a larger indoor habitat...so you can have a warm side and a room temperature side.


----------



## Ciri (Nov 16, 2014)

Yes, and I did think about that. I prefer to play it safe, simply because of the risk of a tortoise in a hot area upside down, when it can't flip itself back over and go to a cooler area.


----------



## Ciri (Nov 16, 2014)

AmordeAbba, 
Just so you know, the veterinarian who wrote the Desert Museum care sheet on the desert tortoise is very accomplished. He has saved the lives of a few of my box turtles/tortoises. He doesn't give bad advice that kills animals. He relies a lot on scientific research on desert tortoises.
His bio:
Dr. Jarchow is the consulting veterinarian for reptiles and amphibians at the Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum. He is an internationally-recognized authority in wildlife veterinary medicine and a specialist in desert tortoise health management who has conducted numerous field and clinical studies of North American tortoises.


----------

