# How long should a tortoise be kept before its sold?



## Neltharion (Apr 5, 2012)

I am one of those people that has bought wild caught specimens in the past, including tortoises as well as other animal species.

A few times retail establishments have had what I've been looking for, the places that get their tortoises from a middle man or wholesaler. 

One of the questions that I always ask is, "How long have they been in your possession?" I usually get some generic response that doesn't answer the question at all, something along the lines of, "These are long term, well established captives." Either that, or they pretend the question wasn't asked and ignore it entirely. When pressed, they oftentimes fumble for an answer which seems to be a lie or they confess that they got them 'yesterday' or a 'few days ago'.

When I questioned one retailer why they don't hold the animal until they can ensure that it is eating and seemingly healthy, the response that I got was this (cut and pasted verbatim): "As a good size retailer with a lot of animals in stock at any given time, I can't afford to be sitting on everything I get in for weeks or even months to make sure they are healthy. If I did that and factored in the extra overhead into the cost of the animal, the price would be higher and I would not be competitive. I am not a big enough name that I can mark up higher prices and still make sales. Plus if I sat on an entire shipment and one of them was sick. That entire group could get sick and I could lose all of them. This could happen after my allowable time period for credit for losses meaning I lose everything." 

I'm curious on hearing what others think on this, particularly retail sellers. What obligation does a seller have to ensure that an animal is healthy before selling it and what is a reasonable amount of time to hold it for observation before attempting to sell it? And in those cases where animals are advertised as healthy, eating, long term captives; but they're put up for sale the day after arrival, is it false advertising for the retailers do make those claims, particularly the 'long term captive' claim when they're really not sure how long the animal has been in captivity?


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## Laura (Apr 5, 2012)

people who are not in it for the $$ will care enough to make sure the animals they sell are healthy.. those who are stricktly a business.. just dont care... 
for the most part... 
no gaurantee either way.. 
some people are willing to pay more for a healthy established animal.. some dont care.. they want the best price.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Apr 5, 2012)

Laura said:


> people who are not in it for the $$ will care enough to make sure the animals they sell are healthy.. those who are stricktly a business.. just dont care...
> for the most part...
> no gaurantee either way..
> some people are willing to pay more for a healthy established animal.. some dont care.. they want the best price.


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## Madkins007 (Apr 5, 2012)

People who sell animals are basically in the retail business- they get animals, they sell animals. Pretty much like car or appliance salespeople. In fact, because of the variable nature of animals, they are most like used cars or appliances.

We even have about the same questions for used stuff salespeople- does it work well? How sure are you and why? Have YOU used it to make sure? 

Sometimes you get someone running a great, honest operation, sometimes you don't. The best way to protect ourselves is a combination of research and developing a relationship with the dealer.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 5, 2012)

It is the responsibility of the store buyer to purchase animals from reputable supply houses. Some buyers even make buying trips to the wholesalers to pick out the animals they want. But once they have it in their store, the name of the game is Sell It. The longer they have to feed it and keep it warm, the less money they make on the deal. It is up to you, the hobby buyer, to buy a healthy animal. Ask questions. Inspect the animal. See if the seller will go for a vet visit, if not fully paid for by them, then maybe he'll go in halves with you.


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## Tom (Apr 5, 2012)

This is a many faceted complex issue. I see, and have spent much time on both sides. I was in retail pets for around 8 years, and wholesale for one year. I've always been a reptile enthusiast, so I've been the customer too.

I think Yvonne spelled it out perfectly above. Could not have worded it better. I was one of those who went and hand picked the animals we sold from only the best wholesalers. We all knew who was cheap, and had crappy animals that were not well taken care of, and we all knew who had the good stuff. The good stuff costed more, but I refused to do it any other way. I had to work harder to sell high quality stuff when petco was just down the street selling the crappy stuff for much cheaper. Many times customers would come to us, take up hours of our time with questions, and them go buy the cheaper stuff at petco. Often, when their animal died, they would come back to us and ask why. I would tell them you get what you pay for. Most of the time they would then buy the higher priced, well taken care of animal from us and set it up with the equipment we recommended and then they would have great success. I would tease some of my regulars, "See. Its like magic. You pay a little more for good healthy animals and they actually live!"

So to sum up my much too long story, I agree that it has a lot to do with the wholesale source that the pet store get their animals from. When my wholesaler buy babies from me, he knows they are quality, well started animals and that he will get rave reviews from his customers. When he buys them from some of his other suppliers (dry routine) he has to spend more time on them and incurs more problems on the other end.


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## Jacqui (Apr 5, 2012)

Neltharion said:


> I'm curious on hearing what others think on this, particularly retail sellers. What obligation does a seller have to ensure that an animal is healthy before selling it and what is a reasonable amount of time to hold it for observation before attempting to sell it? And in those cases where animals are advertised as healthy, eating, long term captives; but they're put up for sale the day after arrival, is it false advertising for the retailers do make those claims, particularly the 'long term captive' claim when they're really not sure how long the animal has been in captivity?



I am going to answer this question and strictly about my thoughts if I were looking to buy hingebacks. I really want, if I am buying WC (wild caught) hingebacks, to be getting those animals as soon after they land on our shores as I can. Why? First off, I know if not properly cared for, they are becoming more stressed. A stressed hingeback can easily become a dead one. I want them as quickly as possible into my quiet enclosures and being cared for as I think they should be. Two, I don't want my future hingebacks being handled (more stress), be it by the seller or worse yet, but the general public. I recently was thinking of getting a few more Spekii hingebacks and found a seller with some. Then I learned these animals were being carted around from one show to another and I backed out of looking at them. Most species that is not as hard on, but hingebacks really should not be treated that way in my opinion. So for me, it's the less time they spend at the sellers, the more I like it.

I have bought the "long time captive and eating like pigs", who arrived at my door light as a feather and then it took about a year til they were eating well and on a variety of foods. Would I have bought them, if the dealer had been honest. Yes, because I don't mind a challenge, if I am buying them in that condition... just don't lie to me.

Long term captive... such an open term with so many believed meanings. I bet the tortoise (if tortoise's thought this way) would say after the first hour (or less) it felt long term to him.  Since in my house, quarantines are normally about a year in length, I would not be calling my animals long term captives until I had them for several years. Sally Sweettater may think one month is long term. 

Another point I need to make and once more I see this so often and so clearly with hingebacks and that would be statements about their eating. I know how with some, just subtle changes or working around them can cause setbacks. By setbacks I mean they go back to being shy or perhaps they stop eating. So let's say Buyer A purchases a hingeback in good faith from Seller B with the information that this tortoise is eating well. Buyer A has the choice to hold the animal until it is eating good for him or believe Seller B and place the animal up for sale right away. Now keep in mind, I have had several hingebacks who took months and some a year before they ate well for me. What person who is purchasing tortoises for resell has enough room to hold all these tortoises in different enclosures for a year before trying to sell the animal? Let's say, Buyer A did hold this hingeback for a year and then sold him to me. By the time this animal gets to me, he is back on the stress bandwagon. Even if this animal was eating at Buyer A's place, he may not eat for me for quite some time. Has Buyer A lied to me in any way? He said they were eating, but they won't eat for me.  I know hingebacks, I realize and quite frankly expect any new animal to not eat right away for me, but not every buyer knows that or is prepared for that level of frustration. With just this one animal Seller B and Buyer A may have been telling the complete truth, yet both Buyer A and I may have had problems getting this animals to eat for us, so it may seem each person lied when they did not.


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## Tom (Apr 5, 2012)

Whew! That was a doozy Jacqui. Great points. I share your desire to get them into my hands ASAP. With my feelings and recent experiences with raising hatchlings, I would prefer to drive to a breeders house and get a new baby as soon as they are ready to leave the shell. I'd prefer to do the brooder box routine and everything at my house. I strongly believe that the first week or two is critical. I'm one of those OCD people that obsesses over every detail and no one can do it as perfectly as me. (I know on an intellectual level that others can do it just fine too, but OCD does not operate on an intellectual level...)


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## Neal (Apr 5, 2012)

We've talked about the responsibility of retailers, but I think there's something to be said about wholesaler responsibility as well. I mentioned in another thread about how frequently we visit the local reptile shops and how every time they seem to have a new crop of tortoises. I think it's fair to say that in a lot of cases, the tortoises we see at pet shops haven't really been there that long. So someone walks in, they see a pyramided tortoise on rabbit pellets without a water bowl and all the sudden it becomes how terrible the pet shop is keeping their animals and now someone needs to talk to the manager and....well we've all heard that story 1,000 times. A week or two on rabbit pellets and minimal water isn't going to do as much damage to a tortoise that's a couple of months old that was "properly cared for" (in our terms) before they got to the pet shop, then a tortoise that was started off in crappy conditions and continues in crappy conditions. Understand what I'm saying? 

Just to provide our stand on wholesaler responsibility, and speaking as a wholesaler, we only sell to retailers that have a favorable reputation and that we know personally who will keep much of the same standards that we do as far as raising healthy tortoises. Obviously, we will make more money if the retailers who buy from us like our stuff, and they will make more money for selling quality tortoises. I think if more wholesalers took pride in what they produce, a lot more people would get a lot more enjoyment from their animals and from this hobby.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Apr 6, 2012)

I kinda waited on my response when I saw this topic pop up last night. I had a feeling people more knowledgeable and experienced than myself would chime and I was right. Everyone pretty much hit all the good points.

It's always easy for new, idealistic hobbyists to bash any sellers (and I'm mainly referring to dealers and importers who do not breed and raise their own stock) who don't "quarantine for X number of days" before they put a price tag on it. I used to be one of those people. Its not always as cut and dry as that. I have a friend who occasionally resells stuff when his captive stock does meet the demand. He gets most of his stuff from friends who are reputable. We've talked at length about it. He knows that the guy he gets his baby corn snakes from takes great pride in his collection and great care of all his animals. None of those snakes are sold with kinks, or are non-feeders, etc. So when HE gets them, there really is no reason for him to sit on them for 90 days (the alleged appropriate time for quarantine) before he sells them. He KNOWS they're quality animals.

Of course, that's not always the case. As others already stated, there are good resellers and bad ones. There's always scumbags who don't give a flying poop about the animals; they just care about increasing the wad of cash in their pockets. On the flip side, there's a great number of dealers who really take the time to acquire and offer good, healthy animals and stand behind what they sell.

Ultimately, it is up to the consumer to know the difference. Its your money; there's no one making you spend it here or there. Its your responsibility to be aware of what you're buying and who you're buying from. To quote the age-old phrase, BUYER BEWARE!


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## Neltharion (Apr 6, 2012)

emysemys said:


> It is up to you, the hobby buyer, to buy a healthy animal. Ask questions. Inspect the animal.



I agree with this. Though, the challenge that comes is buying animals from retailers over the internet, where they will be shipped to you, and you can't inspect them in person. Even in receiving photos, an unscrupulous seller can hide problems. Of course the more common problem is that sellers make material misrepresentations about the animals that they are selling.




Jacqui said:


> I have bought the "long time captive and eating like pigs", who arrived at my door light as a feather and then it took about a year til they were eating well and on a variety of foods. Would I have bought them, if the dealer had been honest. Yes, because I don't mind a challenge, if I am buying them in that condition... just don't lie to me.



This is the point that I'm really drilling at. I understand the need for a retailer to sell what they have in stock as quickly as they can to reduce their inventory carrying costs. What I find unethical is to advertise that an animal is a long term captive, when you really don't know how long its been in captivity. Or when you received it the day before, and you're advertising it for sale the very next day certifying that it is healthy and eating well, when you've never seen it eat and really can't guarantee that it is healthy just by a quick visual inspection. 

I have respect for the seller that is upfront and tells me, "I got them in two days ago. I don't know how long they've been in captivity. It may not be eating yet. But if it comes to you DOA or sick, you're covered under my 2 day guarantee".


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