# Hatchling Losses



## BrianWI (Jul 1, 2016)

Out of curiosity, when people buy a young hatchling, what percentage end up dying in the first 6 months? I see people that came on here with a hatchling, then disappeared after a couple months of posts (some with problems). It made me wonder if they were just no longer participating or if the hatchling died.

I imagine many torts, especially big ones like sulcatas, are impulse purchases. And being fairly inexpensive, maybe seen as disposable. Thoughts?


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## Yvonne G (Jul 1, 2016)

Quite often we hear people say a baby tortoise is the same as taking care of an adult tortoise, but this really isn't the case. Baby tortoises need their butts kissed, while adult tortoises can be tossed out in the back yard and ignored (as long as there's grazing material). I have a feeling that the members who slowly fade out of posting existence do so because their baby died.


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## Tom (Jul 1, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> Out of curiosity, when people buy a young hatchling, what percentage end up dying in the first 6 months? I see people that came on here with a hatchling, then disappeared after a couple months of posts (some with problems). It made me wonder if they were just no longer participating or if the hatchling died.
> 
> I imagine many torts, especially big ones like sulcatas, are impulse purchases. And being fairly inexpensive, maybe seen as disposable. Thoughts?



The question is too vague. There are far too many variables here to answer this question with any degree of accuracy.

One big variable is the source of the baby. If you buy a baby sulcata from me, Lance, Austin, or any number of breeders here who take the time and effort to start them right, 100% of them are going to survive and thrive unless the new owner does something terribly wrong. I sent 3 babies to a well known, long established and experienced member here and the babies were somehow left in a tub in the sun and all three died of excessive heat. Very sad, but anyone can make a mistake. I don't hold it against the person. All the other babies that I've been able to keep track of survived and thrived. Look at Dean's "Bond Girls" threads. Same for Lance. I get tons of PMs from members having trouble with new babies. I've never once got a single PM from anyone having trouble with one of Lance's babies.

On the other hand, if a person gets a baby from one of the many sources that have tons of bad reviews here, or at a reptile show, or from a breeder that starts them on dry substrate with once a week soaks and keeps them outside all day, I would estimate the odds of survival at less than 50/50. If you add in the bad advice that people get from these same sources, meaning people that don't find us and follow our hydration tips, I think the ratio gets even worse.

Also a lot of people simply leave the forum because they either don't believe what they are being told, or because they don't want to spend the time or money to do it right. Some of them want to engage in dangerous practices like letting their tortoise roam loose on the floor and they feel brow-beaten when a bunch of us try to explain how dangerous the practice is in an effort to discourage them. Some people are just so sensitive that every sentence seems and insult to them.


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## motero (Jul 1, 2016)

This is a good question, I would say a lot of babies don't make it. Or there would be lots more adult Sulcatas around. I have grown out over 14 Sulcatas and leopards and haven't lost one due to sickness or health issues. And the credit goes to, The TFO members who taught me all about Tortoise care.

I point every one who gets a tortoise here to the forum to educate them selves.


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## BrianWI (Jul 1, 2016)

Tom,

Actually, I think you answered very well. The answer itself is vague because it is hard to track real numbers. It does illustrate well the need for the proper start for these tortoises.

I have read many threads old and new, so I even understand what you mean by people getting butt-hurt by the truth. I've seen you get yelled at and I've seen some argumentative people. Every hobby has them and animal hobbyists may be the worst (not including political stuff). But, some things need to be said, blunt without a sugar coating.


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## Tom (Jul 1, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> Tom,
> I have read many threads old and new, so I even understand what you mean by people getting butt-hurt by the truth. I've seen you get yelled at and I've seen some argumentative people. Every hobby has them and animal hobbyists may be the worst (not including political stuff). But, some things need to be said, blunt without a sugar coating.



Many threads, arguments and discussions have been had on this subject alone. Many different opinions have emerged. My opinion is that different tactics work for different people. I can type the exact same sentence to 10 people and 2 will cuss me for it, 4 will thank me for it, 1 will call me a "guru", 2 will ignore it and just go on with whatever they were doing, and 1 will leave the forum because of it. Sometimes the sugar-coated nice approach works better, sometimes the frank and blunt approach works better, sometimes a harsher approach works better and sometimes just the passage of time lets ideas sink in.

Anyhow, I don't think there are numbers on the original question of what percentage of babies survive their first six months. I think it really depends on the breeder, seller and new keeper. The numbers are all over the map based on these three primary variables.

Another factor that occurs to me is that many of these "keep-em'-dry" style breeders don't realize how many of their babies they are killing because the babies survive for several weeks of months before succumbing to the effects of early dehydration. We see it all the time here.


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## huff747 (Jul 2, 2016)

Here's my story, I'm on my third go round with trying to raise leopard hatchlings.

Round 1 - 2 leopard babies a decade ago if not more. No clue about this forum then. Also can't remember where I got them from, likely kingsnake or fauna since I use to breed ball pythons and that's where I sold them. I bought the books and did it dry in a tortoise table type setup and with feeding lots of grass (they didn't seem to eat) and cactus, honestly can't recall if I even used spring mix as I think the books really pushed grasses and cactus so that's what I was trying. Didn't make it but I don't recall how long I had them. I don't recall them growing much though.

Round 2 - 1 leopard baby and 1 sulcata baby (housed separately) probably late 2012 early 2013. I decided to give them a go again because I had managed to keep an older redfoot alive for a couple years by the time I got these two. Didn't know about this forum when I got them, bought them from a "breeder" that I believe has since went out of business. Was trying the grass and cactus mostly again although I believe I was also using Spring Mix and Endive/Escarole because I had adopted the older redfoot by the time I got these 2. Was still using dry table like enclosures for these two because that's the info I had in the books and I still hand't found this forum. The redfoot I misted and kept on dampish cypress mulch but the African torts were suppose to be dry according to all the info I had. I did eventually find this forum while trying to figure out why the leopard wasn't growing. Only found it because somebody had posted about this forum on fauna. I'll admit I didn't rush out and make them closed chambers but I did start soaking and misting. I was worried about having them too wet because, no offense, but I had just found this forum and you're faceless people from the internet and I found it difficult to dismiss what the books said for what people I didn't know anything about and had just run across by chance said. And the other care sheets/books say "humidity leads to RI and/or shell rot" and so on. The sulcata seemed to power through and I thought turned out pretty well:









But once again the leopard hadn't been growing and didn't make it. I did have to re-home the sulcata and had traded the redfoot because we moved. And we sold our house before we had any contract on a new place so we moved into a tiny rental duplex with no yard to speak of and no ability as renters to fence it or anything and didn't know how long we'd be there as we were still looking for a permanent place.

Round 3 - 2 leopard babies April of this year from reputable breeder. Did make closed chambers. I'm not probably keeping it as humid as some (it's still a bit tough to fight the fear of doing the opposite of the books and most care sheets that can be found) but it is humid (70% or greater), they also have a humid hide that is usually even more humid and I soak them every day, I've missed only 3 days (non-consecutive) since I've had them while we were out of town for a day here or there. We have a dog sitter that stays at our house and feeds them and mists them but I don't ask her to soak them. And usually when I get back the next day they get 2 soaks. 

When I got them:
Lighter baby




Darker baby




This morning as I type this:
Lighter baby (most new growth has been dark)




Darker baby (most new growth has been light)




And so far the lighter one has gone from 37g to 100g, and the darker one has gone from 32g to 84g.

So I'm guessing you're correct and a lot die. I had never even heard of humidity for them until it was probably too late for the 2nd round leopard. And at least for me it wasn't easy to dismiss what 3 books I bought and pretty much every care sheet outside of this forum says but I'm fighting it this time and they seem to be doing well.


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## Tom (Jul 2, 2016)

huff747 said:


> So I'm guessing you're correct and a lot die. I had never even heard of humidity for them until it was probably too late for the 2nd round leopard. And at least for me it wasn't easy to dismiss what 3 books I bought and pretty much every care sheet outside of this forum says but I'm fighting it this time and they seem to be doing well.



Many people are in your position. I too followed the advice of all the books, vets, experts and breeders, only to meet the same repeated failure that you met. I had given up on keeping leopards entirely until I figured out this warm/humid/hydrated thing. Sadly, most breeders are still doing it the old dry way and most people are still going throughout what you and I went through.

If you haven't seen these, they might offer some explanation. This one explains what goes wrong when they are started dry:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

This one explains how they SHOULD be started:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-incubate-eggs-and-start-hatchlings.124266/


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## ethan508 (Jul 2, 2016)

I hope also that some people that leave the forum do so because they get the hang of tortoise keeping. They used the forum to educate themselves, get enclosure set up advice, find a good diet and hydration plan, and locate a good vet. Now they can sit back, care for, and enjoy their tortoise. I'm grateful for those that have the information and are willing to share, but once I get on my feet I really won't have questions to contribute to the forum, and I won't really be expert enough to provide anything but parroted advice.


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## Tom (Jul 2, 2016)

ethan508 said:


> I hope also that some people that leave the forum do so because they get the hang of tortoise keeping. They used the forum to educate themselves, get enclosure set up advice, find a good diet and hydration plan, and locate a good vet. Now they can sit back, care for, and enjoy their tortoise. I'm grateful for those that have the information and are willing to share, but once I get on my feet I really won't have questions to contribute to the forum, and I won't really be expert enough to provide anything but parroted advice.



This is a POV that I haven't thought of. People who get what they need, and then leave as a satisfied "customer".

Thanks for sharing this.


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## Arizona Sulcata (Jul 2, 2016)

I think the most simple answer is that if they are cared for properly in all stages (breeder to owner) then a tortoise won't just magically die (aka "hatchling failure syndrome"). That term drives me nuts and I feel like I answer emails about it daily.


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## BrianWI (Jul 3, 2016)

So really most die of "owner misinformation syndrome".


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## Tom (Jul 3, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> So really most die of "owner misinformation syndrome".



I would say that some die of new owner error, but the vast majority die from breeder error during the first few weeks after hatching. "Breeder Failure Syndrome". When someone buys one of these dry started babies with damaged kidneys, they often behave normally, eat a lot, bask and everything seems normal for weeks or months. The new owner can do everything right, and these little ticking bombs are still going to die. It can't be predicted and no amount of money or vet care will save them when they get an overly dry start.


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## BrianWI (Jul 3, 2016)

Have necropsies been done?


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## Arizona Sulcata (Jul 3, 2016)

Tom said:


> I would say that some die of new owner error, but the vast majority die from breeder error during the first few weeks after hatching. "Breeder Failure Syndrome". When someone buys one of these dry started babies with damaged kidneys, they often behave normally, eat a lot, bask and everything seems normal for weeks or months. The new owner can do everything right, and these little ticking bombs are still going to die. It can't be predicted and no amount of money or vet care will save them when they get an overly dry start.



I couldn't agree more. Tortoises are hardy creatures and I've seen them take quite a beating from owners who either don't care or in most cases who are misinformed and the tortoises still manage to live on despite horrid conditions. A tortoise that comes from a bad breeder that didn't give them a proper start has little chance of thriving. Those first few weeks play a critical role on how the rest of the torts life plays or unfortunately doesn't play out.


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## Tom (Jul 3, 2016)

BrianWI said:


> Have necropsies been done?


 Yes. Kidney damage is evident each time.


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## Fredkas (Jul 4, 2016)

Just can't believe, read this forum until now, you still amazed me @Tom with your patience of writing same things again and again with added some new information. Thank you that you exist and willing to spend your times educate all of us. I can spend hours of times a day surfing tfo because all this conversation always makes me learn new stuff.


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## BrianWI (Jul 4, 2016)

Tom said:


> Yes. Kidney damage is evident each time.



Raw deal.


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## Pearly (Jul 4, 2016)

Fredkas said:


> Just can't believe, read this forum until now, you still amazed me @Tom with your patience of writing same things again and again with added some new information. Thank you that you exist and willing to spend your times educate all of us. I can spend hours of times a day surfing tfo because all this conversation always makes me learn new stuff.


Agree! @Tom, @Fredkas has preceeded me. I too have been wanting to thank you for ALWAYS taking your time to answer every single question. I have learned tons from you


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## klawran1 (Sep 7, 2016)

huff747 said:


> So I'm guessing you're correct and a lot die. I had never even heard of humidity for them until it was probably too late for the 2nd round leopard. And at least for me it wasn't easy to dismiss what 3 books I bought and pretty much every care sheet outside of this forum says but I'm fighting it this time and they seem to be doing well.



I got VERY lucky. When I got my leopard tortoise (thinking back I want to say 9 years ago) every piece of care information I had said to keep her dry. Soaked, but no misting or anything at all because she could get a respiratory infection easily. Luckily for her, we lived in Mississippi at the time and it was very humid for the entire year I lived there. Nothing I did could lower that humidity (thankfully) and I lost a lot of sleep over it. After that first year-3, we lived in a less humid area and she was kept totally dry for years. By this point, a male I had obtained a couple of years after her showed no signs of growth. I came across a different forum looking for information as you why he wasn't growing before I came across the problem. All I can say is my female leopard was very lucky we were in Mississippi and she at least had some humidity (that room I kept her in was always hot and muggy from my turtle tanks). My male was not so lucky. He survived and was rehomed a couple of years back, but my female is still with me, though I'm not sure she's the correct size for her age. She's at least healthy and happy. The male is still alive and thriving, he's just very small and I doubt he will live anywhere close to his potential. If I ever go down they baby path again, the new one will be in a closed chamber.


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## sue white (Oct 3, 2016)

I think the main reason that hatchling don't make for us newbie's is there are so much info out there,good and bad. How do you know what to believe. I've had mine for 6 weeks and why I haven't killed her is a mystery. I read everything that I could before getting her , I thought I was ready. Boy was I wrong. As of now she is on her 4th enclosure and I finally think I might be understanding the requirements better. Even though she 's healthy now, that ain't saying she won't die yet . But I'm learning


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## sue white (Oct 26, 2016)

As afore mentioned, people dropping this site. I believe they're reading just not talking. Come on now, I can't imagine a time that this web hasn't got something great to read. The lack of my washed dishes attest to that. I'd much rather be reading some new idea on care of tortoises than doing them.What are paper plates for anyway?


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## TheSulcata (Oct 26, 2016)

Can I see a picture of your enclosure?


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## sue white (Oct 26, 2016)

Here it is. I've had "FINN" for 9 weeks and she's approx. a little over 4 months old. This is her 4th enclosure I've fixed up for her and so far the best. Even this gives me some problems keeping humidity where it should be on cold night without soaked substrate. I'm new at tortoise's and thank goodness I just happen to have a tough little Redfoot.


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## Janelle Green (Nov 20, 2016)

sue white said:


> Here it is. I've had "FINN" for 9 weeks and she's approx. a little over 4 months old. This is her 4th enclosure I've fixed up for her and so far the best. Even this gives me some problems keeping humidity where it should be on cold night without soaked substrate. I'm new at tortoise's and thank goodness I just happen to have a tough little Redfoot.
> View attachment 190540
> View attachment 190541


I use humidifiers I live in Colorado it's so dry here and I don't want my substrate wet I only mist the moss in their hide and my humidity is in the 70s always. I lost a baby tortoise a yearling but she came sick there was no heating pack with her while being shipped even great breeders make mistakes I got my money refunded I'm not mad I love the breeder but it was to cold and wet in shipment and she passed away shortly after getting her. Babies are so fragile even a yearling , her brother Casper is doing great! Also tortoises don't like change so they have to get used to it each time your changing it so best to stick with one great enclosure for a bit let the tortoise settle in get to know its new home. Try humidifiers or they even have automatic reptile misters at petsmart and small reptile humidifiers. Like Yvonne said they need their butts kissed so keep spoiling the baby and u should be fine.


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## sue white (Nov 21, 2016)

Hated to hear about the one that didn't make it.Even though Finn came through the mail with flying colors I spent the first month with little sleep and every morning expecting to find that I killed her.I still check on her during the night but now only on my bathroom runs.This enclosure is working really good so she'll be in it until next summer when I can build her a big ,permanent one. I have to agree with you about too much change isn't good for them ,though she has never shown stress I still hate to press my luck. Thinking about adding a humidifier to mine.Have to do some research on which on is best and how to set it up


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## cmacusa3 (Nov 21, 2016)

sue white said:


> Hated to hear about the one that didn't make it.Even though Finn came through the mail with flying colors I spent the first month with little sleep and every morning expecting to find that I killed her.I still check on her during the night but now only on my bathroom runs.This enclosure is working really good so she'll be in it until next summer when I can build her a big ,permanent one. I have to agree with you about too much change isn't good for them ,though she has never shown stress I still hate to press my luck. Thinking about adding a humidifier to mine.Have to do some research on which on is best and how to set it up



If you already have good humidity in your closed chamber I would be against the humidifier... lets say the heat source goes out and the humidifier is still running you could run into issues with a sick tort. That's why closed chamber is nice because it holds the humidity. Just my .02 with my experience.


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## sue white (Nov 21, 2016)

I never thought of that! Thanks for the heads up. I'll have to re-think this idea


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## Janelle Green (Nov 21, 2016)

sue white said:


> I never thought of that! Thanks for the heads up. I'll have to re-think this idea


I set my humidifier on a timer it has a timer right on the front and they run within a day depending on the size of them . The reptile ones are small . What's her enclosure like right now ? Is she eating well? Remember to soak once a day for first year .


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## sue white (Nov 22, 2016)

I feed and soak every other day. On days I don't soak I will gently spray her down with warm water if I see her out and about. After she eats I soak for 15 minutes. She eats like a pig and poo's like one. She is doing real good and spunky when she's out. She usually wondering around for about an hour a day and then hides the rest. The only change to her enclosure is I added a shelf on each end w/plastic plants on it to give her some hiding places and keeps me from getting the substrate too wet. And since the weather has gotten cold here in IL and I run my house thermostat at 58 degrees in winter, I have put an oil heater in enclosure room (temp in room around 74 degrees).Keeping enclosure heat around 82-84 but sometime get up to 90 degrees for short periods. I keep humidity in enclosure between 60-70 % but this entails keeping a frequent eye on it throughout the day.I was thinking that with a humidifier I might be able to keep more of a contestant humidity. Also it might let me relax a bit and not wear a groove in my floors.What ya think?Can I improve? always looking for information


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## cmacusa3 (Nov 22, 2016)

@ZEROPILOT @allegraf 

what would you advise here?

I've tagged a few who could probably give great advice on Reds



sue white said:


> I feed and soak every other day. On days I don't soak I will gently spray her down with warm water if I see her out and about. After she eats I soak for 15 minutes. She eats like a pig and poo's like one. She is doing real good and spunky when she's out. She usually wondering around for about an hour a day and then hides the rest. The only change to her enclosure is I added a shelf on each end w/plastic plants on it to give her some hiding places and keeps me from getting the substrate too wet. And since the weather has gotten cold here in IL and I run my house thermostat at 58 degrees in winter, I have put an oil heater in enclosure room (temp in room around 74 degrees).Keeping enclosure heat around 82-84 but sometime get up to 90 degrees for short periods. I keep humidity in enclosure between 60-70 % but this entails keeping a frequent eye on it throughout the day.I was thinking that with a humidifier I might be able to keep more of a contestant humidity. Also it might let me relax a bit and not wear a groove in my floors.What ya think?Can I improve? always looking for information


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## allegraf (Nov 22, 2016)

I don't know much about keeping torts inside. I would recommend @Redstrike or @terryo as a better source. He in somewhere in the Northeast and has to deal with the cold and keeping cherryhead redfoots inside. Sorry I can't help more, but I know enough to know when to admit that I know nothing. I feel like John Snow.


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## CharlieM (Nov 22, 2016)

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-redfoot-family.88562/

@pfara has this great lengthy thread


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## sue white (Nov 22, 2016)

Thanks CharlieM What a great thread loved it


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## Redstrike (Nov 22, 2016)

allegraf said:


> I don't know much about keeping torts inside. I would recommend @Redstrike or @terryo as a better source. He in somewhere in the Northeast and has to deal with the cold and keeping cherryhead redfoots inside. Sorry I can't help more, but I know enough to know when to admit that I know nothing. I feel like John Snow.



I run a closed chamber much like Tom and many others have demonstrated on the forum. I piped in a Crane humidifier that is hooked up to a Spyder Robotics (Herpstat 4). This regulates my lighting, humidity, and temperatures (ceramic heat emitters) in the enclosure. I've invested considerable funds in caring for my tortoises indoors because I live in a climate that is not suitable for them outdoors 4-6 months out of the year. I researched this heavily and decided that it was my obligation as a redfoot owner to properly care for them outside their native range. I'm fortunate to have the resources to do so. When weather is good, they are outside daily.

I'm cautious to advise anyone outside of the northeast on how to run their setup because situations, resources, and climates are different. What we know is that redfoots need ~ 70% humidity (though they also encounter stretches of dry air masses in the wild), 80-85ºF ambient temps (I don't exceed ~100ºF at the basking spot), and a varied diet. How people choose to accomplish this is to their creativity and enjoyment. Personally I find that to be one of the most fun aspects of caring for my tortoises.

So I guess what I'm saying is:
1) Provide them with neotropical/tropical conditions: 80-85ºF ambient, plus a basking location and 70-80% humidity
2) Give them plenty of places to hide: overturned flower pots, plants, large pieces of bark, leaf piles, etc.
3) Make sure clean water is accessible 24/7: I like the ceramic plant saucers for this. I swap water every 2-3 days.
4) Provide them 70-80% greens, 10-15% fruit, and 5-10% protein (diet is debatable, I'm open to many other interpretations on this but this is what has worked for me). I accomplish this by providing fruit 1/week and animal proteins randomly within a 1-2 week period. I have a dry erase marker board on my enclosure to keep track. Yes, I have skip days where they don't eat 1-2 times/week. Again, this is what works for me.
5) Spot clean their enclosure to remove un-consumed poop (they get it quicker than I do!)
6) provide them a suitable substrate (bioactive soils, topsoils, hardwood/cypress mulch, etc.)
7) DO YOUR RESEARCH AND CONSIDER YOUR SOURCE(S). Books and articles subject to editorial staff and peer-review contain facts based on science. Though this is subject to change and evolve as our understanding does, it's the best we have. *Know the needs of the tortoise before you purchase them, this includes your ability to provide those needs near-indefinitely over time. *

I own and regularly reference:
Mike Pingleton's the Redfoot Manual - great book for anyone caring for redfoots.
Vinke & Vetter South American Tortoises (Chelonian library #3)

For websites I go here and to Tortoiselibrary.com

If you live in a neotropical/tropical environment, like FL, then most of what I outlined can be accomplished outdoors. @allegraf @CharlieM and @cdmay, @ZEROPILOT would be experts on such discussion. I'm sure I've left out at least 6 others that could also provide immense insight on this subject.


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## Redstrike (Nov 23, 2016)

Photos of my setup. I'll be changing that gross water (2 days old) today and add more hides since they're inside for the winter. They regularly climb on top of the humid tote.


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## sue white (Nov 23, 2016)

what a neat setup thanks for the information This is really helpful First book I got was Mike Pingleton's .Great book. His book is useful because when written he lived 40 miles from me in Illinois so I can use as reference for RF care in my area. But there is still so much to learn. I want to be the best caregiver for her that I can. As far as knowing the needs of the tortoise before you purchase is great advise and cannot be stress enough.It appalls me to see people that make remarks that show nothing but a moment decision to get one. I fear for the poor tortoise these people get. But for a person new to tortoise's, do we ever know enough before we purchase. I thought I did. Before I bought my Finn I read and researched for a year until I felt ready. And have to admit that even though so far I think am doing pretty good and because she's tuff, I still wasn't ready for the reality of it. Are any newbie tortoise owners? We learn as we go along with help from people like you and others who have been there before us so we might dodge the bullets. Experience is the best learning tool and I thank all of ya for the help that is freely giving to us newbies.


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## Kaliman1962 (Dec 15, 2016)

Tom said:


> The question is too vague. There are far too many variables here to answer this question with any degree of accuracy.
> 
> One big variable is the source of the baby. If you buy a baby sulcata from me, Lance, Austin, or any number of breeders here who take the time and effort to start them right, 100% of them are going to survive and thrive unless the new owner does something terribly wrong. I sent 3 babies to a well known, long established and experienced member here and the babies were somehow left in a tub in the sun and all three died of excessive heat. Very sad, but anyone can make a mistake. I don't hold it against the person. All the other babies that I've been able to keep track of survived and thrived. Look at Dean's "Bond Girls" threads. Same for Lance. I get tons of PMs from members having trouble with new babies. I've never once got a single PM from anyone having trouble with one of Lance's babies.
> 
> ...


Tom, 
do you breed cherry heads?
thank you


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## Kaliman1962 (Dec 15, 2016)

sue white said:


> what a neat setup thanks for the information This is really helpful First book I got was Mike Pingleton's .Great book. His book is useful because when written he lived 40 miles from me in Illinois so I can use as reference for RF care in my area. But there is still so much to learn. I want to be the best caregiver for her that I can. As far as knowing the needs of the tortoise before you purchase is great advise and cannot be stress enough.It appalls me to see people that make remarks that show nothing but a moment decision to get one. I fear for the poor tortoise these people get. But for a person new to tortoise's, do we ever know enough before we purchase. I thought I did. Before I bought my Finn I read and researched for a year until I felt ready. And have to admit that even though so far I think am doing pretty good and because she's tuff, I still wasn't ready for the reality of it. Are any newbie tortoise owners? We learn as we go along with help from people like you and others who have been there before us so we might dodge the bullets. Experience is the best learning tool and I thank all of ya for the help that is freely giving to us newbies.


i'm in illinois too, northern subs


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## Tom (Dec 15, 2016)

Kaliman1962 said:


> Tom,
> do you breed cherry heads?
> thank you



No sir. My climate is too hot and dry for them. Although its cold and raining at the moment.


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## sue white (Dec 16, 2016)

I'm in central IL about 150 miles from ya cool


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## Big Ol Tortoise (Dec 17, 2016)

Tom said:


> Many threads, arguments and discussions have been had on this subject alone. Many different opinions have emerged. My opinion is that different tactics work for different people. I can type the exact same sentence to 10 people and 2 will cuss me for it, 4 will thank me for it, 1 will call me a "guru", 2 will ignore it and just go on with whatever they were doing, and 1 will leave the forum because of it. Sometimes the sugar-coated nice approach works better, sometimes the frank and blunt approach works better, sometimes a harsher approach works better and sometimes just the passage of time lets ideas sink in.
> 
> Anyhow, I don't think there are numbers on the original question of what percentage of babies survive their first six months. I think it really depends on the breeder, seller and new keeper. The numbers are all over the map based on these three primary variables.
> 
> Another factor that occurs to me is that many of these "keep-em'-dry" style breeders don't realize how many of their babies they are killing because the babies survive for several weeks of months before succumbing to the effects of early dehydration. We see it all the time here.


I love the tortoise forum. But man some people just refuse to accept your help. I love constructive criticism. And it's not really even criticism it's just pointing out how "something" is or could be bad.


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## sue white (Dec 17, 2016)

I thank the day I found this site. Every time I have a question about my hatchling I get on it and look for a answer. To me the forum is a changing of ideas. The hearing of peoples experiences who are raising turtles/tortoises. It doesn't mean I will follow all of or even some of it but it helps to get ideas. All anyone can do is put the info out there and let it be.It may turn out the person that doesn't accept the help is not the person who truly needs it. Whats the saying about horses and water??


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## TheSulcata (Dec 29, 2016)

sue white said:


> I thank the day I found this site. Every time I have a question about my hatchling I get on it and look for a answer. To me the forum is a changing of ideas. The hearing of peoples experiences who are raising turtles/tortoises. It doesn't mean I will follow all of or even some of it but it helps to get ideas. All anyone can do is put the info out there and let it be.It may turn out the person that doesn't accept the help is not the person who truly needs it. Whats the saying about horses and water??



Yeah, this website has helped my a lot with my sulcatas


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## Big Ol Tortoise (Dec 29, 2016)

sue white said:


> I thank the day I found this site. Every time I have a question about my hatchling I get on it and look for a answer. To me the forum is a changing of ideas. The hearing of peoples experiences who are raising turtles/tortoises. It doesn't mean I will follow all of or even some of it but it helps to get ideas. All anyone can do is put the info out there and let it be.It may turn out the person that doesn't accept the help is not the person who truly needs it. Whats the saying about horses and water??


"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" Probably one of my favorite quotes. Simple yet so meaningful.


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