# 2015 Growth Experiment



## Tom

My goal this year is to try to grow these tortoises very smooth and healthy without using any incandescent bulbs. It has become known that the IR-A generated by the commonly used incandescent bulbs has an _extremely_ desiccating effect on our tortoise's carapaces. They need heat, but I am trying to find an alternative to the hot desiccating over head lights that we typically use.

Further reasoning: It is my educated guess (Which unfortunately will have to do until a field researcher collects some hard data...) that young sulcatas spend the monsoon season hiding in the thick underbrush that occurs in their part of the world. The conditions in this area would have to be quite warm and humid and that is the reason for this particular enclosure set up.

The enclosure is a 3x6' closed chamber. Here it is mostly built:






Here it is being sealed with Drylok masonry paint. This is my first time trying out the DryLok. So far so good.





Here it is all finished but empty:





Here is all the heating and lighting:





Here is the mess of wires that controls all the heating and lighting:





There are basically four systems at work to heat and light the enclosure:
1. I have two 12x12" radiant heat panels set on a thermostat to 80 degrees. This maintains ambient at no lower than 80 day and night.
2. I have a regular florescent tube set on a timer to come on around 7am and turn off around 7pm.
3. On the timer that controls the above light, I have a thermostat connected to an additional 12x21" radiant heat panel that is set to 90 degrees. So at 7am the lights kick on and this panel slowly begins to warm the whole enclosure up to around 90. Then at 7pm the light and heat panel kick of and the temperature slowly drops back down to 80ish. This is my best guess at what the temperature does on the hot rainy days over in Africa when the sulcatas have hatched and dug out of their nest chambers.
4. I have an Arcadia 12% HO florescent tube set on a timer to come on for about 5 hours a day from 11am to 4 pm. This is to simulate the higher UV levels that occur mid day.

And of course, the test subjects:
I hatched out 14 little babies from one clutch. Dean took 8 and I kept 6 for this experiment. The eggs were laid January 8th, 2015 and I hatched them out about 3 months later. After a week or so in the brooder boxes, the babies were moved into their enclosure. Dean randomly selected his 8 and the ones he didn't pick are the subject of this experiment.





Here they are making themselves at home:






These babies all hatched between 31 and 34 grams. Since that time they have all grown to between 57 and 64 grams. They get soaked daily and sunned in a large tub three or four times a week for an hour or two. They are eating only a wide variety of weeds, grass and cactus. I'm not raising them with Mazuri or any other prepared foods. So far they look amazing and their health, vigor, growth and appetite suggest they are thriving in very way.


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## johnsonnboswell

Keep us posted on your experiment. 

Dean's babies are the control group in a sense, so he or you should document their care, too.


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## Tom

johnsonnboswell said:


> Keep us posted on your experiment.
> 
> Dean's babies are the control group in a sense, so he or you should document their care, too.



I do believe Dean has a thread dedicated to his babies and he's already been updating it regularly. He is doing something kind of similar for their enclosure, but he does quite a few things differently than me.


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## Yvonne G

Another experiment. I so appreciate that you're willing to share your experiments with us, Tom. It might not be hard science, but it good anyway!!


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## cmacusa3

what are the babies in the clear tub for? I see six on the ground and a few in the tub up in the corner.


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## Yvonne G

Abramsmytankturtle said:


> what are the babies in the clear tub for? I see six on the ground and a few in the tub up in the corner.



Old eagle eye!!! I still couldn't see them, but finally did after squinting.


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## cmacusa3

Yvonne G said:


> Old eagle eye!!! I still couldn't see them, but finally did after squinting.


Haha, I didn't see them on my phone but I could on my work computer


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## Tom

Abramsmytankturtle said:


> what are the babies in the clear tub for? I see six on the ground and a few in the tub up in the corner.



The picture was taken soon after they all hatched. The tub is a brooder box and those babies needed just a few more days to absorb their yolk sacs and close up the umbilical scars before being thrown in with the general population.

I'm not in a hurry to get them out of their brooder boxes. They seem to do better for me if I leave them in there longer. I also find that it takes hatchlings a while to figure out what is food and what isn't, so more days in the brooder box lets me expose them to a wider variety of new foods. My babies eat something new and novel nearly every day for that first 7-10 days in the brooder box. Then once they are in their enclosure they eat all the food I offer, but they don't sample the substrate.


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## mtdavis254817

That is amazing


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## leigti

I will be interested to see how this works. Anything that keeps my tortoiseshell from drying out so badly when she has to be inside would be great.
One question, at the beginning of the thread you said that you think that the hatchlings spend much of their time in sick undergrowth. With this be simulated more with plants in the enclosure? Or is the damp substrate and the ambient heat enough? I also just happen to like the look of plants and makes the enclosure look more natural to me. I do realize that how it looks is not the most important detail however.


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## Maggie Cummings

leigti said:


> I will be interested to see how this works. Anything that keeps my tortoiseshell from drying out so badly when she has to be inside would be great.
> One question, at the beginning of the thread you said that you think that the hatchlings spend much of their time in sick undergrowth. With this be simulated more with plants in the enclosure? Or is the damp substrate and the ambient heat enough? I also just happen to like the look of plants and makes the enclosure look more natural to me. I do realize that how it looks is not the most important detail however.



maybe thick undergrowth? I'm the one with sick plants....


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## Tom

leigti said:


> I will be interested to see how this works. Anything that keeps my tortoiseshell from drying out so badly when she has to be inside would be great.
> One question, at the beginning of the thread you said that you think that the hatchlings spend much of their time in sick undergrowth. With this be simulated more with plants in the enclosure? Or is the damp substrate and the ambient heat enough? I also just happen to like the look of plants and makes the enclosure look more natural to me. I do realize that how it looks is not the most important detail however.



I can't get plants to do well in an indoor enclosure, but I think it would be cool to do it that way. My tortoises trample, eat, move, dig under, bulldoze, flatten, bury, or otherwise destroy indoor plants. I can get plants growing in pretty thick outdoors, but its still too dry here for baby tortoises and the babies just do better when raised mostly indoors for me. I'd love to see someone do an experiment like this in a heavily planted indoor enclosure.


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## mikeylazer

There is no way to grow plants in an enclosure where they only have 1 light for 5 hours a day. Im sure there are some that could do okay, but nothing i can think of would thrive enough to get bug and bushy to create thick undergrowth. Very interested fo see how this turns out!


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## Tom

mikeylazer said:


> There is no way to grow plants in an enclosure where they only have 1 light for 5 hours a day. Im sure there are some that could do okay, but nothing i can think of would thrive enough to get bug and bushy to create thick undergrowth. Very interested fo see how this turns out!



There is a light on in this enclosure for 12 hours a day. The HO UV light is only on for 5 hours a day.

Further someone else could design another experiment and use whatever lighting they wanted to grow lots of plants.


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## leigti

Tom said:


> There is a light on in this enclosure for 12 hours a day. The HO UV light is only on for 5 hours a day.
> 
> Further someone else could design another experiment and use whatever lighting they wanted to grow lots of plants.


My plants grew very well indoors this past winter. I didn't have any special lighting just the lighting for the tortoise and the Boxturtle. I do not have a green thumb. I was just wondering. It's not the most important part of the experiment it was just an idea I had since you said that they spend their time in thick undergrowth. I like to make my enclosures as close to natural as I can. Kind of difficult since I live on the other side of the world from where my tortoises from but you get the idea  I look forward to the results of this experiment. I think it is important that experience tortoise keepers do experiments like this. It's about the only way to get more information in a relatively timely manner.


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## Tom

mtdavis254817 said:


> That is amazing



Thanks. Which part do you like?


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## bouaboua

Hi Tom:

May I have your permission to translate this thread and post it on one of the Chinese Tortoise forum? I have been preaching closed chamber method for about two years in that forum, I like to follow this thread and share the result of your experiment step by step with all the Chinese Tortoise lover. 

Thank you in advance.


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## bouaboua

And I like the work of your electrician.......! ! !


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## Momo

Tom said:


> My goal this year is to try to grow these tortoises very smooth and healthy without using any incandescent bulbs. It has become known that the IR-A generated by the commonly used incandescent bulbs has an _extremely_ desiccating effect on our tortoise's carapaces. They need heat, but I am trying to find an alternative to the hot desiccating over head lights that we typically use.
> 
> Further reasoning: It is my educated guess (Which unfortunately will have to do until a field researcher collects some hard data...) that young sulcatas spend the monsoon season hiding in the thick underbrush that occurs in their part of the world. The conditions in this area would have to be quite warm and humid and that is the reason for this particular enclosure set up.
> 
> The enclosure is a 3x6' closed chamber. Here it is mostly built:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is being sealed with Drylok masonry paint. This is my first time trying out the DryLok. So far so good.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is all finished but empty:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is all the heating and lighting:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the mess of wires that controls all the heating and lighting:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are basically four systems at work to heat and light the enclosure:
> 1. I have two 12x12" radiant heat panels set on a thermostat to 80 degrees. This maintains ambient at no lower than 80 day and night.
> 2. I have a regular florescent tube set on a timer to come on around 7am and turn off around 7pm.
> 3. On the timer that controls the above light, I have a thermostat connected to an additional 12x21" radiant heat panel that is set to 90 degrees. So at 7am the lights kick on and this panel slowly begins to warm the whole enclosure up to around 90. Then at 7pm the light and heat panel kick of and the temperature slowly drops back down to 80ish. This is my best guess at what the temperature does on the hot rainy days over in Africa when the sulcatas have hatched and dug out of their nest chambers.
> 4. I have an Arcadia 12% HO florescent tube set on a timer to come on for about 5 hours a day from 11am to 4 pm. This is to simulate the higher UV levels that occur mid day.
> 
> And of course, the test subjects:
> I hatched out 14 little babies from one clutch. Dean took 8 and I kept 6 for this experiment. The eggs were laid January 8th, 2015 and I hatched them out about 3 months later. After a week or so in the brooder boxes, the babies were moved into their enclosure. Dean randomly selected his 8 and the ones he didn't pick are the subject of this experiment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here they are making themselves at home:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These babies all hatched between 31 and 34 grams. Since that time they have all grown to between 57 and 64 grams. They get soaked daily and sunned in a large tub three or four times a week for an hour or two. They are eating only a wide variety of weeds, grass and cactus. I'm not raising them with Mazuri or any other prepared foods. So far they look amazing and their health, vigor, growth and appetite suggest they are thriving in very way.



Wow Tom,
Looks great! I'm just wondering about the front panel. I'm assuming it's cut glass? Did you buy the glass, and cut it yourself? Also the treads that the glass slides on, did you buy that from home depot, and cut to fit the enclosure? Because I currently have Plexiglass and it's starting to warp from the heat, and the moisture. I used 100% silicon for the seal, However that isn't holding as well as I would like.

So I will be redoing it slightly, and I'm probably going to screw the plexiglass to the wood, or redo it like your with proper glass.


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## Tom

Momo said:


> Wow Tom,
> Looks great! I'm just wondering about the front panel. I'm assuming it's cut glass? Did you buy the glass, and cut it yourself? Also the treads that the glass slides on, did you buy that from home depot, and cut to fit the enclosure? Because I currently have Plexiglass and it's starting to warp from the heat, and the moisture. I used 100% silicon for the seal, However that isn't holding as well as I would like.
> 
> So I will be redoing it slightly, and I'm probably going to screw the plexiglass to the wood, or redo it like your with proper glass.



I used plexi and it runs in lattice cover tract. They sell stuff called lattice cap at the hardware store. I cut it to length, drilled and countersunk screw holes and screwed it in.

The plexi does warp, so better to use glass.


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## Momo

Tom said:


> I used plexi and it runs in lattice cover tract. They sell stuff called lattice cap at the hardware store. I cut it to length, drilled and countersunk screw holes and screwed it in.
> 
> The plexi does warp, so better to use glass.



Awesome! Thanks so much


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## Alaskamike

Tom , that enclosure set up for babies is the best I've seen. For folks who have the resources it gives a great example of a great way to do it. I especially like the lighting / heat set ups you created. 

The drying effects of overhead heat lamps is one issue that Ibelieve still needs improvement in the hobby. Raising up babies in the most healthy environment for the first 24 months of life is vitally important to lifelong health. 

Not everyone can create the best thing. But every keeper can learn and modify knowing " best practices". 

Guesses and theory , opinion and antidotal info is one thing, but their is no substitute for actually doing it and observing real world results. I applaud your dedication and efforts.


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## Yvonne G

@Tom - It's about time for an update on these babies, no?


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## Tom

Yvonne G said:


> @Tom - It's about time for an update on these babies, no?



Yes. I've ben busy working a lot. They are up to 68-86 grams now. Need to get pics and weights again.


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## DawnH

I also did not want to bug about pictures... but... ya know. It's time!!!


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## tortadise

Have you thought of perhaps trying some thermal cubes and tubing with a small fan hooked to it. Can devise such a chamber where the humidity is the last thing to leave the tubing and the heat forced in with the fan wouldn't allow direct heat, but a mixture of moist warm air. It's very difficult to explain in written form. I may have to draw it and snap a pic. Although my hand writing looks like I have a seizure when I write or draw. But I'll give it a go for yah.


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## tortadise

this is the quickest drawing i could come up with. Basically you place a 2'x2" box outside in direct sun exposure(Morning,afternoon and as much as possible) plexi glass or glass is best. spray paint it black and line it with foil. Seal the top with the same material. run a 4 or 5" hard pipe dryer vent or even CPVC(Not PVC though. PVC has a much quicker half life when exposed to heat and temperature fluctuations like this) run it to the inside where the closed chamber is. About mid way through the pipe on the inside of the building portion install a 4-5" computer fan and this suck the heat generated from the box outside. Just before the pipe enters to closed chamber you can tie in a fogger, or even just a water tank. The heat with create a greenhouse effect to the water tank and create very humid warm air all generated by the sun and some TLC.


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## Tom

I was out of town working for nearly 3 weeks. Things got a little drier than I wanted and I don't think they were fed as well as I normally feed, but all is well. My daughter and I color dotted them all for ID purposes too.

NOTE: I am using only "natural" type foods for these guys. No grocery store greens, Mazuri or any other prepared foods. Growth is a little slower than normal for me but not by much.

Here they all are:




Starting with Mr. Blue at 71 grams:





Mr. Green is the fatty at 91 grams:




Next is Mr. Orange, the runt of the bunch at 67 grams.




Next up is Mr. Silver at 83 grams:




Mr. Pink also comes in at 83 grams:







Last but not least is Mr. Purple at 72 grams:




All are eating well, active, and behaving normally in their unconventional set up.


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## Odin's Gma

Tom said:


> NOTE: I am using only "natural" type foods for these guys. No grocery store greens, Mazuri or any other prepared foods. *Growth is a little slower than normal for me but not by much.*



I will be very interested to see if this trend continues. As I have mentioned, Odin has always been fed almost exclusively natural foods and grazes freely all day rather than us plunking food in his bowl daily (or however often people do that), Mazuri is a rare treat and he has only had grocery store greens once. 
He is quite small and his growth, although steady, does seem to be slower than many of the people here who share their data.


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## Tom

Odin's Gma said:


> I will be very interested to see if this trend continues. As I have mentioned, Odin has always been fed almost exclusively natural foods and grazes freely all day rather than us plunking food in his bowl daily (or however often people do that), Mazuri is a rare treat and he has only had grocery store greens once.
> He is quite small and his growth, although steady, does seem to be slower than many of the people here who share their data.



There are many factors that determine growth rate, but I find the most significant factor in hatchlings to be their hydration level. Babies soaked every day and kept mostly indoor in the correct conditions tend to grow faster than babies kept outside, soaked less often, but fed the exact same foods in the exact same amounts.

I say again: What happens in their first fews days and weeks has a monumental effect on the rest of their life.


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## Odin's Gma

Tom said:


> There are many factors that determine growth rate, but I find the most significant factor in hatchlings to be their hydration level. Babies soaked every day and kept mostly indoor in the correct conditions tend to grow faster than babies kept outside, soaked less often, but fed the exact same foods in the exact same amounts.
> 
> I say again: What happens in their first fews days and weeks has a monumental effect on the rest of their life.


Just from what I have seen here from those who follow your advice compared to those who have had a dry start (including Odin) I am totally on board with your methods. But if the all natural feeding method is contributing to the slower growth of mine, I am just wondering if I may be doing him a disservice by avoiding the regular offering of "fast food".


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## Tom

Odin's Gma said:


> ...I am just wondering if I may be doing him a disservice by avoiding the regular offering of "fast food".



I don't think so. I've never cared about how fast they grow. I care about how _healthy_ they grow. With a good diet, good hydration, a good enclosure, and the right conditions I think whatever rate they are growing is fine, be it "slow" or "fast".

I think sulcatas, and really any species, need adequate protein. Jerry Fife convinced me of this years ago. I make sure to offer enough legumes, clover and alfalfa to insure adequate plant protein if I'm not feeding Mazuri. They don't need _a lot_ of protein, but they do need some occasionally.


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## Odin's Gma

Tom said:


> I don't think so. I've never cared about how fast they grow. I care about how _healthy_ they grow. With a good diet, good hydration, a good enclosure, and the right conditions I think whatever rate they are growing is fine, be it "slow" or "fast".



Glad to hear you say that. I have a tendency to worry and overthink everything, which can be good, but it can also be a waste of time. I have all of the points in place for healthy growth and he is seems to be a healthy, active little trouble-maker.



> I think sulcatas, and really any species, need adequate protein. Jerry Fife convinced me of this years ago. I make sure to offer enough legumes, clover and alfalfa to insure adequate plant protein if I'm not feeding Mazuri. They don't need _a lot_ of protein, but they do need some occasionally.


That certainly isn't a problem. Little Odin will mow a clover field flat if given the opportunity!


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## Anyfoot

Tom said:


> I don't think so. I've never cared about how fast they grow. I care about how _healthy_ they grow. With a good diet, good hydration, a good enclosure, and the right conditions I think whatever rate they are growing is fine, be it "slow" or "fast".
> 
> I think sulcatas, and really any species, need adequate protein. Jerry Fife convinced me of this years ago. I make sure to offer enough legumes, clover and alfalfa to insure adequate plant protein if I'm not feeding Mazuri. They don't need _a lot_ of protein, but they do need some occasionally.


Hi Tom. Its not very often we cross paths, Purely because of you being pigeon holed. Only kidding. But when are you going to get into redfoots. lol 
I truly believe you are on the right path with this experiment. When do you expect to see your results. There is no doubt in my mind why this wont work. I'm in the process of building an enclosed 300sq ft enclosed enclosure. This SHOULD be ready for introducing the heat source by the end of the year. So basically I was hoping to do what you are doing on a bigger scale. Would you be interested in helping me with my experiment, and it is an experiment.You mentioned growing plants in doors. I'm going to attempt this. Dwarf banana and papaya being some of the tropical subjects. Anyway I would appreciate your overall backing.This heat experiment you are doing is exactly what i was thinking about. My tropical house will be 13ftx20ft,
I'm going to build caves a river system in there with 2 maybe 3 tiers to get 400sq ft of tortoise land. Are you interested in helping me?


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## Anyfoot

Tom said:


> I don't think so. I've never cared about how fast they grow. I care about how _healthy_ they grow. With a good diet, good hydration, a good enclosure, and the right conditions I think whatever rate they are growing is fine, be it "slow" or "fast".
> 
> I think sulcatas, and really any species, need adequate protein. Jerry Fife convinced me of this years ago. I make sure to offer enough legumes, clover and alfalfa to insure adequate plant protein if I'm not feeding Mazuri. They don't need _a lot_ of protein, but they do need some occasionally.


I have a question for you Tom. I am a novice with tortoises and have a lot to learn. I reckon I can tell the difference between any WC an CB tortoise. WHY?


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> Hi Tom. Its not very often we cross paths, Purely because of you being pigeon holed. Only kidding. But when are you going to get into redfoots. lol
> I truly believe you are on the right path with this experiment. When do you expect to see your results. There is no doubt in my mind why this wont work. I'm in the process of building an enclosed 300sq ft enclosed enclosure. This SHOULD be ready for introducing the heat source by the end of the year. So basically I was hoping to do what you are doing on a bigger scale. Would you be interested in helping me with my experiment, and it is an experiment.You mentioned growing plants in doors. I'm going to attempt this. Dwarf banana and papaya being some of the tropical subjects. Anyway I would appreciate your overall backing.This heat experiment you are doing is exactly what i was thinking about. My tropical house will be 13ftx20ft,
> I'm going to build caves a river system in there with 2 maybe 3 tiers to get 400sq ft of tortoise land. Are you interested in helping me?



I'm seeing results from this process all along the way. They are all growing smooth and steady.

I'd be happy to help, but what you are proposing is out of the realm of my experience. Sounds like you will need to heat and humidify the whole room. Sort of like making one big reptile room.

I like to have adult tortoises that can live outside all the time with proper heated shelters. My climate is far too dry and hot for RFs to do well here. Many people have tried and failed. JD has demonstrated how to do it correctly and with excellence, but his environment is a bit different than mine and I've seen no one else in this area that does it as well as he does. So until I move to the South, no RFs for me.


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> I have a question for you Tom. I am a novice with tortoises and have a lot to learn. I reckon I can tell the difference between any WC an CB tortoise. WHY?



This depends on many factors. In the UK, many people have to keep their tortoises indoors most or all of the year. Over here many of us live in climates that allow us to keep our tortoises outside year round. I've seen quite a few examples that you might not be able to tell so easily. Living outside "weathers" them quite a bit more than clean indoor living. That is the primary way that you are able to tell.


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## Anyfoot

Tom said:


> I'm seeing results from this process all along the way. They are all growing smooth and steady.
> 
> I'd be happy to help, but what you are proposing is out of the realm of my experience. Sounds like you will need to heat and humidify the whole room. Sort of like making one big reptile room.
> 
> I like to have adult tortoises that can live outside all the time with proper heated shelters. My climate is far too dry and hot for RFs to do well here. Many people have tried and failed. JD has demonstrated how to do it correctly and with excellence, but his environment is a bit different than mine and I've seen no one else in this area that does it as well as he does. So until I move to the South, no RFs for me.


Yep. It's out of my realm too. But its the only way to keep reds over here I feel. JD is helping me with advice on the build. I've had the floor built on a 4% drop into a drainage system so not to get stagnent water pools. JD's advice. 
Trouble is most of the advanced tort keepers have the climate more in their favor than I do. So I'm on my own, so to speak with some of the problems I'll have to over come. Anyway. I'll keep an eye on your thread. Then see if it can be done on a large scale. How are you dealing with humidity in your system?


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> Yep. It's out of my realm too. But its the only way to keep reds over here I feel. JD is helping me with advice on the build. I've had the floor built on a 4% drop into a drainage system so not to get stagnent water pools. JD's advice.
> Trouble is most of the advanced tort keepers have the climate more in their favor than I do. So I'm on my own, so to speak with some of the problems I'll have to over come. Anyway. I'll keep an eye on your thread. Then see if it can be done on a large scale. How are you dealing with humidity in your system?



Damp substrate and a closed chamber give me all the humidity I need here. I find it amusing and disturbing at the same time that so many care sheets recommend moderate humidity, but then propose an open table set up that will make achieving even low levels of humidity impossible. Too much ventilation is not a good thing when the air coming in is too dry and/or cold. Whether it be a box like mine or a room like yours, trapping and containing our warm humid air is the goal.


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## Anyfoot

Tom said:


> Damp substrate and a closed chamber give me all the humidity I need here. I find it amusing and disturbing at the same time that so many care sheets recommend moderate humidity, but then propose an open table set up that will make achieving even low levels of humidity impossible. Too much ventilation is not a good thing when the air coming in is too dry and/or cold. Whether it be a box like mine or a room like yours, trapping and containing our warm humid air is the goal.


I found this with my viv. It has air vents in it. I had to block all but 1 to keep humidity up.


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## DeanS

For the record...and separately from my thread... http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/8-new-babies-from-tom-aka-the-bond-girls-maybe.118641/ ...my 8 are currently between 2.86 and 3.25" and 89 - 122 grams. Still working on a camera...hope to have that remedied soon! And they are incredibly smooth...the BEST I've ever seen!


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## DeanS

@Tom...updates man! And photos


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## Tom

DeanS said:


> @Tom...updates man! And photos



Funny you should say that...

I was going to do that today, but I didn't have my camera. Hopefully in the next couple of days.


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## DeanS

Tom said:


> Funny you should say that...
> 
> I was going to do that today, but I didn't have my camera. Hopefully in the next couple of days.


Well then...allow me to retort!  Five days ago the largest was 122 grams...now the smallest is 122 grams (actually, three of them are at that weight). The largest is 164 grams already! Big. fat and smoooooth! Also, I should have a new camera within a week. Accidentally stumbled across a QVC order in my history from my wifey! So, I checked one out at Samy's to see if I'll like it! OUTSTANDING...at a fraction of what I was going to spend! Highly recommended for those of you looking for a new camera without going bust! Check it out...

http://www.qvc.com/Canon-Rebel-SL1-...g.product.E227333.html?upsh=1&sc=E227333-CSWB

Sorry for the brief hijack Tom!


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## Anyfoot

Tom said:


> My goal this year is to try to grow these tortoises very smooth and healthy without using any incandescent bulbs. It has become known that the IR-A generated by the commonly used incandescent bulbs has an _extremely_ desiccating effect on our tortoise's carapaces. They need heat, but I am trying to find an alternative to the hot desiccating over head lights that we typically use.
> 
> Further reasoning: It is my educated guess (Which unfortunately will have to do until a field researcher collects some hard data...) that young sulcatas spend the monsoon season hiding in the thick underbrush that occurs in their part of the world. The conditions in this area would have to be quite warm and humid and that is the reason for this particular enclosure set up.
> 
> The enclosure is a 3x6' closed chamber. Here it is mostly built:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is being sealed with Drylok masonry paint. This is my first time trying out the DryLok. So far so good.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is all finished but empty:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is all the heating and lighting:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the mess of wires that controls all the heating and lighting:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are basically four systems at work to heat and light the enclosure:
> 1. I have two 12x12" radiant heat panels set on a thermostat to 80 degrees. This maintains ambient at no lower than 80 day and night.
> 2. I have a regular florescent tube set on a timer to come on around 7am and turn off around 7pm.
> 3. On the timer that controls the above light, I have a thermostat connected to an additional 12x21" radiant heat panel that is set to 90 degrees. So at 7am the lights kick on and this panel slowly begins to warm the whole enclosure up to around 90. Then at 7pm the light and heat panel kick of and the temperature slowly drops back down to 80ish. This is my best guess at what the temperature does on the hot rainy days over in Africa when the sulcatas have hatched and dug out of their nest chambers.
> 4. I have an Arcadia 12% HO florescent tube set on a timer to come on for about 5 hours a day from 11am to 4 pm. This is to simulate the higher UV levels that occur mid day.
> 
> And of course, the test subjects:
> I hatched out 14 little babies from one clutch. Dean took 8 and I kept 6 for this experiment. The eggs were laid January 8th, 2015 and I hatched them out about 3 months later. After a week or so in the brooder boxes, the babies were moved into their enclosure. Dean randomly selected his 8 and the ones he didn't pick are the subject of this experiment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here they are making themselves at home:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These babies all hatched between 31 and 34 grams. Since that time they have all grown to between 57 and 64 grams. They get soaked daily and sunned in a large tub three or four times a week for an hour or two. They are eating only a wide variety of weeds, grass and cactus. I'm not raising them with Mazuri or any other prepared foods. So far they look amazing and their health, vigor, growth and appetite suggest they are thriving in very way.


Tom, what wattage are those 12x12 rad heat panels. Do you know roughly how often they kick in and out to maintain 80f at night.


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> Tom, what wattage are those 12x12 rad heat panels. Do you know roughly how often they kick in and out to maintain 80f at night.



If memory serves they are 40 watts each. It lists the wattage on the reptilebasics website if you want to look it up.

That room stays around 80 or higher all summer long day and night, so these panels almost never come on. When we move into fall, I let that room drop as low as 75. At that point the panels might kick on once in a while, but not for long and not often in such an insulated sealed box.


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## Tom

Update time!

Blue at 83 grams:




Green at 103 grams:




Orange at 71 grams:




Silver at 88 grams:




Pink at 92 grams:




And finally Purple at 81 grams:


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## DeanS

@Tom are they staying fairly wet in the chamber...or is this the product of misting?!?!


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## Tom

DeanS said:


> @Tom are they staying fairly wet in the chamber...or is this the product of misting?!?!



They are dry all the time except when I soak them. I'm not misting these guys at all to eliminate a variable. I always weigh them the same way. Sort of a routine... I sun them for an hour or two and then soak them for 30-40 minutes. While they soak I clean their waters and set their food out. After their soak I rinse them with filtered rainwater (no minerals) and then weigh them before putting them away. On update days I add the step of picture taking after their rinse. So that is why they are always wet in the pics.


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## DeanS

@Tom What do you mean you 'sun them'...in the garden beds? Currently, I bring the 8s out early to graze...once the sun covers the yard, I isolate them in one of the planters for most of the day. They have an abundance of overgrowth from mallow, nightshade and chicory....yes it finally has flourished here...and they do take to it for cover. There are two that habituaaly burrow, but the rest take to the overgrowth for shelter. I can just envision the thousands of hatchlings doing so across the sub-Saharan belt


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## Anyfoot

Tom said:


> They are dry all the time except when I soak them. I'm not misting these guys at all to eliminate a variable. I always weigh them the same way. Sort of a routine... I sun them for an hour or two and then soak them for 30-40 minutes. While they soak I clean their waters and set their food out. After their soak I rinse them with filtered rainwater (no minerals) and then weigh them before putting them away. On update days I add the step of picture taking after their rinse. So that is why they are always wet in the pics.


Hi Tom. Is there specific reason you use water with no minerals to rinse them? Or is it just because it's filtered water?


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## DeanS

@Tom ...a semi-update for you!

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...e-bond-girls-maybe.118641/page-4#post-1159423


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## Tom

DeanS said:


> @Tom What do you mean you 'sun them'...in the garden beds?



I put them outside in one of my big black tubs with dirt on the bottom and shade over head for an hour or two a few times a week.


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> Hi Tom. Is there specific reason you use water with no minerals to rinse them? Or is it just because it's filtered water?



Tap water and well water leave behind hard water stains on their carapace. I just don't like the way it looks. Rain water, distilled water or RO water leaves no minerals behind when it evaporates.


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## DeanS

For those just tuning in...here's my link to the eight siblings of Tom's six...I'll also post the link to Tom's post on mine on a (semi) regular basis! 

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/8-new-babies-from-tom-aka-the-bond-girls-maybe.118641/


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## Tom

Here is the latest update. Hey @DeanS . Check it out.

Here are the weights:





And I took the easy way out on the pics and grabbed a group shot:


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## Tom

They continue to thrive. Slow and steady growth.

Their growth rate is certainly acceptable, but it is slower than what I am used to. I can't understand how a light bulb, or the absence there of, makes such a difference.


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## Anyfoot

How do juvenile sullies and other species get D3 if they are hidden in the depths of the undergrowth? Do they eat what's in the deep shade for security? Or do they come out into the open to feed?


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> How do juvenile sullies and other species get D3 if they are hidden in the depths of the undergrowth? Do they eat what's in the deep shade for security? Or do they come out into the open to feed?



Unknown. Virtually nothing is known about wild hatchlings, even by the people like Tomas who lives there and has been studying them since he was a child.

We can only guess. Having been to Africa and having studied African animals my whole life, I would venture an educated guess that a hatchling that breaks cover and ventures out into open ground would quickly be eaten by any number of hungry predators. I have seen it suggested, but not scientifically studied, that hatchlings get a supply of D3 from the yolk. How long this would last, I know not. When given the choice, my captive hatchlings stay hidden deep in the undergrowth, but dappled beams of sunlight still reach the ground at those depths.

MY babies get real sun several times a week and also have Arcadia 12% HO bulbs indoors. I would love to know more about what really happens in the wild


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## Anyfoot

Tom said:


> Unknown. Virtually nothing is known about wild hatchlings, even by the people like Tomas who lives there and has been studying them since he was a child.
> 
> We can only guess. Having been to Africa and having studied African animals my whole life, I would venture an educated guess that a hatchling that breaks cover and ventures out into open ground would quickly be eaten by any number of hungry predators. I have seen it suggested, but not scientifically studied, that hatchlings get a supply of D3 from the yolk. How long this would last, I know not. When given the choice, my captive hatchlings stay hidden deep in the undergrowth, but dappled beams of sunlight still reach the ground at those depths.
> 
> MY babies get real sun several times a week and also have Arcadia 12% HO bulbs indoors. I would love to know more about what really happens in the wild


Yeah me too. It suprised me how little we do know about torts. I did not know that they got d3 from the egg yolk. The plot thickens. 

So nobody knows what length of time juveniles take to actually absorb internally the D3 from the yolk. 
So if we assume at the moment that the yolk supplies sufficient amount of D3 until the juvenile is big enough to go out in the open, and they don't get direct intense heat from the sun at the vulnerable size. 

One thought about you saying they are slower in growth rate without intense heat from a bulb could be.

By putting our juvies under bulbs we are fast forwarding there growth rate, in turn could this be magnifying or even creating deffects within the carapace structure. Resulting in vast differences even within a group that are all raised in the same environment. 

When baking bread. You leave the dough to prove in a warm area , if its to hot you get air pockets. Then when it's baked the air pockets are magnified at various different degrees. Some of the bread will be OK but some will have large air pockets in it. There is only consistency when it's all done at a warm temp. 

Lastly. I can't believe I've just had to use baking of bread to try and explain what I am thinking.


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> I did not know that they got d3 from the egg yolk. The plot thickens.



I dont "know" that either, its just something I read. It could be right or wrong, but it does makes sense to me.


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> Lastly. I can't believe I've just had to use baking of bread to try and explain what I am thinking.



Hmm... Food for thought.


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## Alaskamike

I am following this experiment with interest. Though I have no babies now - and really have no plans to raise more - anything that can advance the hobby and quality of care interests me. 

I used to be criticized roundly for removing the overhead CHE and using a human heating pad instead to keep my enclosure at 80f. And it also produced a warm spot in the soil that stayed 90-95f all the time. The pad was under a piece of thin slate. I kept water in there sitting on the slate too to keep it warm. , just put a board over the top to keep in the heat, but never thought of a closed chamber to make it easy) nor was I aware of need for humidity., though in retrospect the humidity in there had to be higher because the heated slate was evaporating the water from the dish. . This was many yrs ago - before Tom and many others proved the humidity help And showed best ways to do it. I had no clue. 

I too found that 5 - 6 hours of direct sunlight a week was enough to provide the D3. It was a herp vet who worked at the zoo that told me that , and said no need for a UV lamp if you can get them into real sunlight. 

A suspicion of the damagingeffect of heat lamps had me trying new things , and while it was only 2 leopards , they both turned out pretty smooth. But I still thought it was mainly a diet issue with too much protein that was the culprit for pyramiding. If anyone one asked that's all I told them. And at that time, there were not many CB Leopards that were smooth. 

Wish I still had those 2. But I was made an offer for them I couldn't refuse. Hahaha. 

Today I see many Leopards that almost look wild caught, with good smooth growth. But it's still mostly the young ones, being raised with the new methods. 

I like that there is a recognition of the evolutionary conditioning of tortoises for their health and survival. Tom and others recognized this early with the humidity issue. And of course the bold ones that stay out in the open too long will be eaten and never pass on their genetics. They don't sit out in the sun 10 hours a day. 

Great work Tom. The hobby owes you - among others - a debt of gratitude


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## TerrapinStation

Wow. very cool and informative. Those are some lucky Sulcata's to have you taking care of them. 

I was hoping that the Mr. Green, Mr Blue, Mr. Pink Reservoir Tortoise theme would keep going though, I pictured them all wearing suits & smoking cigarettes as they planned a jewelry store heist..... The getaway would be great to watch....


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## Bogie=babyDINO

Time for an update @Tom? 
I'm curious to know how the test subjects are doing lol


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## DeanS

I'm curious how yours are coming along, as well! See for yourself what's going on with their siblings!

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/8-new-babies-from-tom-aka-the-bond-girls-maybe.118641/


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## Anyfoot

@Tom. Can you do me a favour please?
Could you check what temperature your radiant pad gives out at substrate level when you get a minute. I know you have it on a stat, But could do with knowing how hot it can project heat at what ever the height of you enclosure is. How heigh is your enclosure? Cheers. 
Oh yeah. I too would like to see an update


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## Tom

10/14/2015 UPDATE:







All is progressing well. Their growth is slow, steady and smooth, but they are growing at about half the rate of their siblings being raised with Dean. This growth rate is remarkably similar to my babies that were raised outside all day every day in a well panted, well shaded enclosure. These are growing smoothly while those ones were pyramiding just a little bit, but the rate is very close.

I'm at a loss to explain this. I don't see what difference a heat lamp would really make here, but it apparently does. I suppose they do better with the ability to thermoregulate more. It is warm enough for them to live and be healthy, but it seems that the option to get hotter or cooler is a good option to offer. I still don't like our over head, electric, IR-A producing heat lamps, but I have not yet found a better alternative. While these babies are healthy, active and showing good appetite, so are their siblings at twice the size. Fast growth is not the goal, but if two groups of direct siblings from the same clutch are demonstrating similar health and good growth, doesn't the faster growing bunch indicate that they are thriving and doing better than the slower growers?

Perhaps next year I will look for an alternate heat source to offer a thermal gradient, but without the over head IR-A. I suppose I should also raise a batch in this enclosure with an incandescent lamp just to check that too...


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> @Tom. Can you do me a favour please?
> Could you check what temperature your radiant pad gives out at substrate level when you get a minute. I know you have it on a stat, But could do with knowing how hot it can project heat at what ever the height of you enclosure is. How heigh is your enclosure? Cheers.
> Oh yeah. I too would like to see an update



The enclosure is 24" tall. At that height, there is no discernible difference directly under the RHP vs. out from under it.


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## Nephelle

Tom said:


> 10/14/2015 UPDATE:
> 
> View attachment 152515
> 
> 
> View attachment 152516
> 
> 
> All is progressing well. Their growth is slow, steady and smooth, but they are growing at about half the rate of their siblings being raised with Dean. This growth rate is remarkably similar to my babies that were raised outside all day every day in a well panted, well shaded enclosure. These are growing smoothly while those ones were pyramiding just a little bit, but the rate is very close.
> 
> I'm at a loss to explain this. I don't see what difference a heat lamp would really make here, but it apparently does. I suppose they do better with the ability to thermoregulate more. It is warm enough for them to live and be healthy, but it seems that the option to get hotter or cooler is a good option to offer. I still don't like our over head, electric, IR-A producing heat lamps, but I have not yet found a better alternative. While these babies are healthy, active and showing good appetite, so are their siblings at twice the size. Fast growth is not the goal, but if two groups of direct siblings from the same clutch are demonstrating similar health and good growth, doesn't the faster growing bunch indicate that they are thriving and doing better than the slower growers?
> 
> Perhaps next year I will look for an alternate heat source to offer a thermal gradient, but without the over head IR-A. I suppose I should also raise a batch in this enclosure with an incandescent lamp just to check that too...



Tom, I am way too new to tortoises to legitimately have any sort of opinion, so please read this as a curious pondering 

I have been following this thread with interest. This quote from above - _"Fast growth is not the goal, but if two groups of direct siblings from the same clutch are demonstrating similar health and good growth, doesn't the faster growing bunch indicate that they are thriving and doing better than the slower growers?"_ got me wondering!

From what I understand, this was an attempt to simulate a more "natural" growth environment for these babies, as they might experience in the wild? (I have read where you said there is very little known, so I think this is really cool!) In my mind, it would make sense for a baby that is spending most of it's time hidden to maintain a slower, steady growth pattern--the faster it grows, the more food it would need to consume, and the faster it would outgrow it's safe hiding spot and need to emerge unprotected into the world. I also wonder if the pattern of growth would reflect the change in seasons for the area they are from--for instance, if they first showed themselves in the rainy season, their growth might be timed with their natural environment?

I would imagine any living thing provided with an optimum growing environment would thrive in it, however because you are trying a more natural approach, maybe there are more factors at play!

As I said, just loose change rattling around. This is absolutely fascinating, thank you for the continued updates! This is an awesome thread to follow.


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## Anyfoot

Yep. That's pretty much the assumption I came up with.( your words are better than mine though).
In captivity are we are aiming for the optimum(feed,heat,light etc). Where as in reality in the wild they go through good and bad times over an annual period slowing the growth through bad times.
However in Toms experiment the only thing he has changed is the heat source. So a more intense heat must make them grow faster. Maybe because it increases the appetite. 
I actually think that this experiment is proving yet another piece of the jigsaw puzzle to Tortoise care.
Hot spots increase growth rate and in turn a more open and porous karatin growth. Not as dense and stable as slow growth.
I can't prove it. I am too on the 1st runner of the ladder to Tortoise care.

Off topic a bit here.
Does anyone out there force their tortoises to go through bad times, I.e not an abundance of the best foods year round?


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## Anyfoot

@Tom. Do you plan on keeping any of these juveniles?


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> @Tom. Do you plan on keeping any of these juveniles?



No. I figured I'd sell them around Christmas time. I keep expecting a huge growth spurt to happen, but not so far.


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> Off topic a bit here.
> Does anyone out there force their tortoises to go through bad times, I.e not an abundance of the best foods year round?



Yes. We discuss that here all the time. Many people leave the heat and lights off indoors for a day or two to simulate a cold rainy spell in the wild. Many people skip feeding days, or in some cases they don't feed their tortoises at all and just let them eat whatever they can scrounge outside in their pens. Yvonne frequently says that is what she does with Dudley. I did this with a bunch that I raised in the 90's. What I ended up with was stunted, pyramided, undersized adults 14 years later.


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## Anyfoot

Tom said:


> Yes. We discuss that here all the time. Many people leave the heat and lights off indoors for a day or two to simulate a cold rainy spell in the wild. Many people skip feeding days, or in some cases they don't feed their tortoises at all and just let them eat whatever they can scrounge outside in their pens. Yvonne frequently says that is what she does with Dudley. I did this with a bunch that I raised in the 90's. What I ended up with was stunted, pyramided, undersized adults 14 years later.


Thanks Tom. When you did this in the 90's was this before the humidity issue came on the scene? 

Ahhhh, the 90's. Those were the days.


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## Tom

Anyfoot said:


> Thanks Tom. When you did this in the 90's was this before the humidity issue came on the scene?
> 
> Ahhhh, the 90's. Those were the days.



Yes. Hot, dry and feeding "natural" foods irregularly and in small amounts was supposed to emulate "the wild" and be the best thing for them. 2007 was the first time the humidity thing struck me. In that year I had both some first hand experiences in humid parts of the country and the Fifes released their Leopard Tortoise book that specifically mentions using humid hides. Knowledge evolved rapidly for the next few years after that. For several years I knew that "it" worked, but I could not explain exactly why. It was 2011 when I met Tomas Diagne from Senegal and he explain how things _really_ work over their with regards to the monsoon season and what not.


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## Team Gomberg

Nephelle said:


> ----In my mind, it would make sense for a baby that is spending most of it's time hidden to maintain a slower, steady growth pattern--the faster it grows, the more food it would need to consume, and the faster it would outgrow it's safe hiding spot and need to emerge unprotected into the world----



Now see, I disagree with this.

See, in my mind it makes more sense that a baby in the wild would grow faster. The faster it grows, the quicker it moves up on the food chain.
We see humid raised Sulcatas reaching near a foot long at 1 year of age. Small 4" hatchlings are on the menu for more critters at that small size than at a foot long. Wouldn't getting off that menu in a years time be better than being on the menu for 4 or 5 years? Quite a few dry started Sulcatas are still pretty small at those ages..
I'm just saying...that's how I see it.

It's all very interesting and there are many things we just don't know. These experiments are great for getting more pieces to the puzzles though, that's for sure!


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## DeanS

It should be pointed out that I'm ONLY using a 120W RHP and a zoomed UV fluorescent tube...but they've mostly been outdoors and spend most of that time in overgrown grass (in the shade). Although nearly twice the size of Tom's, they are completely smooth...ABSOLUTELY PERFECT! BUT... for this I credit Tom's flawless incubation technique! Tthat and the fact that I allow a little more protein intake than most hobbyists are comfortable with! But, and I've said this before, as long as they're properly hydrated...protein is NOT a negative!


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## Anyfoot

DeanS said:


> It should be pointed out that I'm ONLY using a 120W RHP and a zoomed UV fluorescent tube...but they've mostly been outdoors and spend most of that time in overgrown grass (in the shade). Although nearly twice the size of Tom's, they are completely smooth...ABSOLUTELY PERFECT! BUT... for this I credit Tom's flawless incubation technique! Tthat and the fact that I allow a little more protein intake than most hobbyists are comfortable with! But, and I've said this before, as long as they're properly hydrated...protein is NOT a negative!


What do you feed for the protein intake?


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## DeanS

Anyfoot said:


> What do you feed for the protein intake?


Mazuri has some...as does alfalfa hay...and whatever the dogs leave that I don't get to in time!  Plus, I've witnessed these guys eat earthworms, sow bugs...and various other beetles. And two of them go nuts for *MONSTRO!*'s um...logs!


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## Anyfoot

DeanS said:


> Mazuri has some...as does alfalfa hay...and whatever the dogs leave that I don't get to in time!  Plus, I've witnessed these guys eat earthworms, sow bugs...and various other beetles. And two of them go nuts for *MONSTRO!*'s um...logs!


 So like you said, feeding them anything and everything and more towards an omnivore diet.


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## FLINTUS

@Tom I must have missed this, and then haven't been on in a while so not seen any updates.
Anyway, this is a very interesting concept, especially considering our previous conversations about self-regulation, in particular my belief that a tortoise needs to be able to find wetter areas, or drier, warmer areas. However, I have always believed, like you, that in captivity, this is taken to an extreme. Obviously a closed type enclosure with the heat source high above the ground reduces these problems, but even-so.
What does catch my eye, however, is these growth rates. I have stated before that I believe that for what ever reason, tortoises usually grow slower in the wild, taking longer to reach maturity. I do agree about intense heat speeding up growth with regards to @Anyfoot 's theory, and the keratin is probably less dense and more spread out as a result, but we have no proof for this. The general accepted consensus on here is that wild conditions are not optimal, and that in captivity, we can improve on that; hence, for example, a larger temperature gradient. What I believe you have shown, is the 'optimal', standard captive conditions, in comparison to wild conditions, where the heat gradient is less. Consequently, with these wild conditions, growth is slower, and can be bumpy depending on the variables: an example would be with your outside group. 
Now the question is then, can we provide better artificial conditions in captivity, or are there negative side-effects?


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## DeanS

@Tom (and anyone else that might be interested)...here's the link to my 8 that I shot today! The smoothest babies I've EVER raised! The photos don't prove nearly as well as the naked eye! Anyway, mine go out for about 4-5 hours a day! I've only kept them in chambers 24/7 twice in their first six months! They will turn seven months next week. They are all growing faster and larger than the Sudans we got from Brad in 2012 at the same age! The chamber is maintained between 90 and 100º 24/7. The humidity is maintained at 100% for two weeks at a time...then dries out gradually during that third week. The process is repeated every fourth week. Unlike Tom, who is going for the complete habitat...my use of the chamber is to mimic the burrow. The only light in the chamber is a Zoomed Reptisun 5.0 UVB tube that I only run an hour or two a day...right when I bring them in for the night!

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/8-new-babies-from-tom-aka-the-bond-girls-maybe.118641/page-5


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## destortoise

Goodness, I had a mini panic attack reading those climbing weights for your baby torts because my tortoise's growth has NOT skyrocketed like yours.

And then I realized that you have Sulcatas and I have a redfoot 

Then all was well.


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## SteveW

Tom said:


> I'm at a loss to explain this. I don't see what difference a heat lamp would really make here, but it apparently does. I suppose they do better with the ability to thermoregulate more. It is warm enough for them to live and be healthy, but it seems that the option to get hotter or cooler is a good option to offer. I still don't like our over head, electric, IR-A producing heat lamps, but I have not yet found a better alternative. ...



I don't have an answer here, but I am also intrigued by and pursuing thermal gradients and microclimates. Anecdotally, I observe my leopard making extensive use of the different niches. 

Also, and I may have misread/missed this, but it appears you changed the habitat and changed the diet (no Mazuri) at the same time. This could potentially be a significant and compounding variable when comparing growth rates. 

Not germane to your objective, but this looks like a great approach to indoor redfoot housing. 

Interesting work. Cheers!


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## Tom

SteveW said:


> Also, and I may have misread/missed this, but it appears you changed the habitat and changed the diet (no Mazuri) at the same time. This could potentially be a significant and compounding variable when comparing growth rates.
> 
> Not germane to your objective, but this looks like a great approach to indoor redfoot housing.



I agree on both counts.


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## DeanS

@Tom ...Do your six have new homes now? My eight are still damn near indistinguishable from one to the next... they weigh anywhere from 401 to 512 grams!


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## Tom

DeanS said:


> @Tom ...Do your six have new homes now? My eight are still damn near indistinguishable from one to the next... they weigh anywhere from 401 to 512 grams!



They are sold, but I haven't shipped them yet.


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## Tom

This experiment is all done. The results were unexpected, but useful none the less. Here is a summation of my observations:
1. They grow much slower in this sort of set up.
2. It seems that providing warm enough temps, but without a gradient, is not a superior way to grow them.
3. Growing them completely without the use of any IR-A producing incandescent bulbs did not prevent or reduce pyramiding, when compared to a similar set up using incandescent bulbs.

Here are the final weights and some pics:



Group shot:



Mr. Blue was one of the smallest and demonstrated almost no pyramiding:




Mr Green was the largest and also the smoothest. Once again this goes against the "fast growth is bad and causes pyramiding" theory that we so often hear:




Mr. Orange was the smallest and also showed very minor pyramiding:




Mr. Silver:




Mr. Pink was in the middle size wise, but showed the most pyramiding:




Mr. Purple:


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## Yvonne G

Thank you, Tom. I'm so glad you're willing to experiment with your babies and keep us in the loop with the results.


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## SteveW

Excellent results. Seems to call into question not only the fast growth equals pyramiding, but also the IR-A causes pyramiding conjecture. By way of comparison, how do your normally raised hatchlings compare in regards to pyramiding and growth rate?


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## Tom

SteveW said:


> Excellent results. Seems to call into question not only the fast growth equals pyramiding, but also the IR-A causes pyramiding conjecture. By way of comparison, how do your normally raised hatchlings compare in regards to pyramiding and growth rate?



My hatchlings raised in similar enclosures, but with over head incandescent lamps for heat and light grow 2 or 3 times faster than this, and the rate of pyramiding is about the same or less. There were many threads in the past that demonstrated this. Like this one: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-sudan-sulcatas.50806/ 
At the bottom of page four you can see them at 1000 grams at about a year old and completely smooth.

I was truly shocked that these current babies showed any pyramiding at all. I really thought it was the heat lamps that were doing the damage. This lot had no basking source of any kind. The RHPs in this experiment were too high up to be felt by the tortoises at ground level. They just served to warm the whole enclosure.


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## SteveW

Fascinating. Very cool the variation you can demonstrate with the volume of sulcata hatchlings you've raised. Those of us with 'singles' can never tell if growth we see is the direct result of care provided, or we just happen to have an outlier. 
I still want to duplicate the habitat for my redfoot.


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## Tom

SteveW said:


> Very cool the variation you can demonstrate with the volume of sulcata hatchlings you've raised. Those of us with 'singles' can never tell if growth we see is the direct result of care provided, or we just happen to have an outlier.



I've pondered your above point many times and I've tried to explain this concept to people I've argued with a number of times…

In every group of every species I've raised there are a variety of results. The person raising just one, or even a small group might not see the variation. I've often thought to myself that if I had just been raising this one, or that one, I might have incorrectly come to the wrong conclusions about some things.

I still have no way to explain why some individuals of the same clutch, raised and fed the same way grow at such strikingly different rates and demonstrate such a variety of levels of pyramiding.

Much more to learn...


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## Blakem

Very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to investigate this topic.


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## DeanS

Even though Tom is finished with his experiment...mine goes on. You can see the exploits of the 8s...siblings to these six right here...

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/8-new-babies-from-tom-aka-the-bond-girls-maybe.118641/page-6


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## GeorgeUK

I found this thread via The Reptile Report on FB. Fascinating experiment Tom. Thank you for sharing.


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## Jimb

This has been an amazing & educational thread. Thanks so much for sharing your experiment and everyone's input.
You said you were planning on selling these come Christmas time so I'm interested in knowing if they're sold and if not how much you're asking and how much the shipping would be? Some breeders charge a set amount for shipping.
Thanks again for sharing your experiment!


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## Tom

Jimb said:


> This has been an amazing & educational thread. Thanks so much for sharing your experiment and everyone's input.
> You said you were planning on selling these come Christmas time so I'm interested in knowing if they're sold and if not how much you're asking and how much the shipping would be? Some breeders charge a set amount for shipping.
> Thanks again for sharing your experiment!





They have all been sold. Sorry.


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## Jimb

Tom said:


> They have all been sold. Sorry.



No problem, I'm not surprised. I couldn't get one at this time anyway due to the weather here in Colorado is snowpacked & cold.
Thanks again!


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## DeanS

ONE week until these guys are a year old...stay tuned for updates.


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## DeanS

Today, two of the babies Tom hatched last year are a year old! The rest did not hatch out for another week...so I'm going to wait until the 19th to do a full-blown update. However, I will tell you that the two smallest specimens are 1,029 grams and 1,011 grams. The 2 largest...1,564 grams and 1,482 grams. The four in between range from 1,074 grams to 1,305 grams. The three smallest are all between 6.5" and 6.75" while the others are ALL (at least) 7" with the two largest just over 7.5"

Hope that whets your appetite for more...


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## Kenno

What? Seven inches at one year old? 
At this rate they will unbalance the planet!


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## DeanS

Kenno said:


> What? Seven inches at one year old?
> At this rate they will unbalance the planet!


I certainly hope so!


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## DeanS

The 8s are a year old today! HUGE thanks to Tom and his brilliance at incubating and brooding! The difference between these and others I raised in the past is that these guys got to spend most of their first year in an artificial burrow...the temp was set at 90º by radiant panel only. I mounted it directly in the center of the ceiling...12" above the top of their carapaces. The footprint of the 'burrow' is 48X24. Being as the RHP measures 32X12, they had the opportunity to seek cooler areas...i.e. the walls of the burrow...which were about 10º cooler than the settings. Although primarily kept in the dark, the burrow does have a Reptisun 10.0 UVB tube mounted at one end...to properly maintain circadian rhythm. These guys (and gals) are the most ridiculously perfect sullies I've ever raised...strong, healthy and ZERO pyramiding! Check out their progress here...

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/8-new-babies-from-tom-aka-the-bond-girls-maybe.118641/page-7


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## Lori lawson

Hey Tom, I have the two baby sulcatas they were supposed to be 6 mos in October. One has doubled in size to now be 6 oz in wt. the other has only gone from 1.85oz to 2.15 oz. any idea why one grows so slow? Both are healthy and eating well


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## SarahChelonoidis

Lori lawson said:


> Hey Tom, I have the two baby sulcatas they were supposed to be 6 mos in October. One has doubled in size to now be 6 oz in wt. the other has only gone from 1.85oz to 2.15 oz. any idea why one grows so slow? Both are healthy and eating well



Are they living together as a pair? If so, having one out grow the other is quite common - and part of why it's never recommended to keep them in pairs. A dominant tortoise controls the food and good basking spots so is more successful.


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## Tom

Lori lawson said:


> Hey Tom, I have the two baby sulcatas they were supposed to be 6 mos in October. One has doubled in size to now be 6 oz in wt. the other has only gone from 1.85oz to 2.15 oz. any idea why one grows so slow? Both are healthy and eating well



Yeah… What Sarah said.


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## Lori lawson

Tom said:


> Yeah… What Sarah said.


Nope. Torts seperate per toms advice early on. They were supposed to be 6 mos old. Perhaps smaller one was younger?? Do they grow slower when younger? Also, what a great day to keep outdoors! Enclosed of course. But, they don't spend much time in full sun. They both go under small provided shade space. Is that ok? Or should I remove shade spaces?


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## Lori lawson

I'm not sure how to make a general post to tortoise forum but I really want to find kona a good home. Please let me know that you got my message prior to this one about kona


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## Stuart S.

Lori lawson said:


> I'm not sure how to make a general post to tortoise forum but I really want to find kona a good home. Please let me know that you got my message prior to this one about kona



Hi Lori, if you look for the marketplace section of the forum there are threads for folks that are looking for homes for their torts...if that's what you're referring to. I'm sure someone here would love to take your Kona. Where are you located and do you have any pictures? I hope everything works out.


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## Stuart S.

Lori lawson said:


> I'm not sure how to make a general post to tortoise forum but I really want to find kona a good home. Please let me know that you got my message prior to this one about kona



Hey Lori, I'm sorry I just saw your post in the for sale section. Disregard my last post, I hope you find a home for your baby.


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## Lori lawson

Stuart S. said:


> Hi Lori, if you look for the marketplace section of the forum there are threads for folks that are looking for homes for their torts...if that's what you're referring to. I'm sure someone here would love to take your Kona. Where are you located and do you have any pictures? I hope everything works out.


In desert hot springs,ca. Not sure how to put photo in forum?


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## Tom

For anyone looking at this old thread, don't use Drylok. It doesn't work.


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## ilovekitty666

Well im guessing you just posted this because you saw my post talking about it. Thank you for the update. How long did this take to happen?


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## MichaelS

Wow that is scary


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## Tom

ilovekitty666 said:


> Well im guessing you just posted this because you saw my post talking about it. Thank you for the update. How long did this take to happen?


Two years before the bottom fell out. Then I patched it up and made it last one more year. I finally replaced it with an Animal Plastics enclosure of the same dimensions.


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## silvaricci

Tom said:


> My goal this year is to try to grow these tortoises very smooth and healthy without using any incandescent bulbs. It has become known that the IR-A generated by the commonly used incandescent bulbs has an _extremely_ desiccating effect on our tortoise's carapaces. They need heat, but I am trying to find an alternative to the hot desiccating over head lights that we typically use.
> 
> Further reasoning: It is my educated guess (Which unfortunately will have to do until a field researcher collects some hard data...) that young sulcatas spend the monsoon season hiding in the thick underbrush that occurs in their part of the world. The conditions in this area would have to be quite warm and humid and that is the reason for this particular enclosure set up.
> 
> The enclosure is a 3x6' closed chamber. Here it is mostly built:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is being sealed with Drylok masonry paint. This is my first time trying out the DryLok. So far so good.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is all finished but empty:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is all the heating and lighting:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the mess of wires that controls all the heating and lighting:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are basically four systems at work to heat and light the enclosure:
> 1. I have two 12x12" radiant heat panels set on a thermostat to 80 degrees. This maintains ambient at no lower than 80 day and night.
> 2. I have a regular florescent tube set on a timer to come on around 7am and turn off around 7pm.
> 3. On the timer that controls the above light, I have a thermostat connected to an additional 12x21" radiant heat panel that is set to 90 degrees. So at 7am the lights kick on and this panel slowly begins to warm the whole enclosure up to around 90. Then at 7pm the light and heat panel kick of and the temperature slowly drops back down to 80ish. This is my best guess at what the temperature does on the hot rainy days over in Africa when the sulcatas have hatched and dug out of their nest chambers.
> 4. I have an Arcadia 12% HO florescent tube set on a timer to come on for about 5 hours a day from 11am to 4 pm. This is to simulate the higher UV levels that occur mid day.
> 
> And of course, the test subjects:
> I hatched out 14 little babies from one clutch. Dean took 8 and I kept 6 for this experiment. The eggs were laid January 8th, 2015 and I hatched them out about 3 months later. After a week or so in the brooder boxes, the babies were moved into their enclosure. Dean randomly selected his 8 and the ones he didn't pick are the subject of this experiment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here they are making themselves at home:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These babies all hatched between 31 and 34 grams. Since that time they have all grown to between 57 and 64 grams. They get soaked daily and sunned in a large tub three or four times a week for an hour or two. They are eating only a wide variety of weeds, grass and cactus. I'm not raising them with Mazuri or any other prepared foods. So far they look amazing and their health, vigor, growth and appetite suggest they are thriving in very way.


Hi! I'm very interested in this project, yet I can't see the images!
Am I doing something wrong?
Thanks so much!!!


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