# what are we really doin here



## John (Dec 11, 2010)

I take great offense too the fact that someone could post a thread on this forum("expert information and advice")that displays a video of a person treating a turtle like a toy,lets make it do stuff people will watch.if you are into that there ars many places for it,if this is one of those places im in the wrong place.heres a link for ya.what kinda paint should i use too paint my box turtle?im thinking oil base it i'll last longer.i saw a post where everyone was offended by a guy who turned his sulcata on his back and teased it with food,that wasn't a good trick,the forum didnt like it.strap a cool pix too a turtle though an the crowd goes wild!they wouldn't sell cigarettes if people didn't buy them an people wouldnt mistreat animals so much if we didn't watch it on u tube.its supply and demand.everyone who commented on the turtle cam thread,watched it.boosting its hit count,making it popular,wonder what can be done too an animal next too top that.


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## Shelly (Dec 11, 2010)




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## Az tortoise compound (Dec 11, 2010)

Shelly said:


>



(without entering discussion or stating my opinion on the matter)

That is the best reply to a post I have ever seen!
I hit my head when I fell out of my chair laughing


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## John (Dec 11, 2010)

thats an army dog an i hate army dogs!!i can't talk no more its tortoise dress up time. semper fi


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## Yvonne G (Dec 11, 2010)

Hey, John:

I understand that you were offended by the video of the turtle with a video cam taped onto his back. I didn't like it either. But we still have free speech here in America. Some of the folks who watched the video didn't like it either, but then again, some of them did. We are not advocating animal cruelty. I don't really believe that the camera strapped onto the turtle was harmful or cruel. Scientists do it all the time to sea turtles and other animals. There's no harm coming to the turtle. I don't think anyone who comes on the forum and looks at that thread would think that we are advocating animal cruelty.

This is what makes our forum so good, in my opinion. We can all voice our opinions without the fear of anyone coming down on us. I don't like the video, but I think the OP (original poster) was perfectly within his rights to post it here. As you are within your rights to post things you find interesting.


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## Torty Mom (Dec 11, 2010)

Amen.........


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## John (Dec 11, 2010)

I hear yor point yvonne but reptiles are not dogs or cats or monkeys, the mere fact that we keep them at all is tramatic too them im sure.when i was 16 a lotta kids thought is was cool too blow pot smoke in box turtles faces and then put them upside down.bet that would be a good u tube video.most people on this forum seem interested in the care and protection of chelonians.too have this posted and members say it is cool is not a good representation of what this forum claims too be.im all for free speech gut theres a time and place for everything.and no disrepect too you but you can not possibly say what any person might do or think,no one can.i didn't mean too implie that the forum was advocating animal cruelty,but i will say the people who think the video is cool are.like i said what will be the next trick.one guy said its no different than what scientists do.are you kidding me.i think alot of people keep these animals for all the wrong reasons,just my opinion who am i too say,i mean maybe someday ill be a god and just pluck people from there houses and make them do tricks for me. make me laugh jester


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## coreyc (Dec 11, 2010)

The video was not that bad the turtle was in the pool less than a minute as for it being stressed out it looked like it just wanted to get in the water don't take me the wrong way I can not stand people that hurt animal's but lighting up it was a harmless video


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## Missy (Dec 11, 2010)

I think there is cruel and just plain dumb. I don't think it was cruel but I would not do it to my torts. The thing that worried me was the pool chemicals and the dog. Some videos are harmless and just plain funny like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R3BYCT5oWw Just my opinion.


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## John (Dec 11, 2010)

at the end of the day,a person who really cared for these animals would not have the erge too make them perform tricks or stunts.this video and all like it represent the popular human misconception that we are so much bigger than nature.i do not agree with the pet trade,if it did not exsist and i was givin the chance too take something from its home and cage it for my enjoyment i would not.all my life ive hunted reptiles and studied them in their enviroment when i was a child i brought them home,that was a long time ago.i havnt taken anything from nature in twenty years.the animals i keep come strickly from the pet trade,i do not keep them for my pleasure,as much as i keep them too provide a decent life for them irespect them and they facinate me.i do not name them,i do not paint them,i do not dress them up,and i dont make videos of them doing silly stuff.i am happy that i am able too posses them,but it is unfortunate that i am.


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## Laura (Dec 11, 2010)

Not sure how you can hate that video and post pictures of your snakes eating mice...

I know they have to eat and I dont have to like it, but I dont care to see it posted here.


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## Tom (Dec 11, 2010)

That same video was posted several months ago and it started a similar discussion then. Squamata, why do you have tortoises? What is your reason or purpose? I would go so far as to say that unless you are a professional in an animal facility trying to breed a critically endangered species, and save it from extinction, that we all keep them for entertainment. I do. I keep them for my own enjoyment, education, and entertainment. I still have a very big responsibility to care for them properly, but in essence, they ARE for my entertainment. I don't NEED them. I just want them.

That turtle was not harmed in any way and appeared to be very healthy, active and well cared for, to me. He was able to exercise and run around the back yard. He was able to stretch his legs and get some sunshine too. I did find the video entertaining and I actually thought it would be kinda fun and educational to stick a camera like that on one of my big sulcatas while he wanders around the ranch, just to see what he does from his point of view. I might even learn something from it that would help me care for them better.

I see a big difference between that and painting one or intentionally flipping one. Maybe you don't... Really, I think there is nothing wrong with having some fun with our animals, as long as we are not harming them or overly stressing them out.


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## John (Dec 11, 2010)

i have them because i can but i wouldn't if it meant takin them from their home,i don't play with them. and my enjoyment comes from knowing they are takin care of.i don't see a difference, its not the video itself its the image it portays,this is the same as when i first cameon the forum and said i didnt like the pirog book and everyone gasped and then shunned me. one of the reasons i dont like his book is. under diet there are two pictures one shows a strawberry being offered the other shows bok=choy and tomatoes too a novice and maybe all a picture is worth a thousand words.why would u demonstrate the wrong thing,when u can teach the right?


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## Tom (Dec 11, 2010)

squamata said:


> i have them because i can but i wouldn't if it meant takin them from their home,i don't play with them. and my enjoyment comes from knowing they are takin care of.i don't see a difference, its not the video itself its the image it portays,this is the same as when i first cameon the forum and said i didnt like the pirog book and everyone gasped and then shunned me. one of the reasons i dont like his book is. under diet there are two pictures one shows a strawberry being offered the other shows bok=choy and tomatoes too a novice and maybe all a picture is worth a thousand words.why would u demonstrate the wrong thing,when u can teach the right?



Good point about the food pics in the book. I often think the same thing when I see things like that. I still don't have a problem with that camera on the RES, and I still DO agree with you in not liking the other examples you listed.


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## Isa (Dec 11, 2010)

I agree with Laura. I do not understand how you can start a thread about this video (I did not like it either and I found it cruel) but you can show plenty of pics of your snake eating. I know they have to eat and everything but showing plenty of pics of that.... Hmm I do not know!!!!


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## Tom (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't buy the "Captive Bred" argument. They were ALL taken from the wild at some point. Just because it wasn't your hand that plucked the wild tortoise (or YOUR tortoises parents) out from under a bush in the wild doesn't mean you are not responsible for it having happened. You are still supporting it and rewarding the people who DID do it. I don't have a problem with it as long as it is done humanely and not overly depleting them from the wild.


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## John (Dec 11, 2010)

snakes eating is nature a turtle running around with a camera on its back diving in a pool is not.and the first time that turtle went up for air he was lifted watch the video and pay attention


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## Tom (Dec 11, 2010)

For Laura and Isa, I don't equate a snake eating with sticking a camera on a RES for entertainment. Snakes gotta eat, even though you don't wanna see it. RES don't NEED to run around with cameras on their backs.

I'm just sayin'... two different things.


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## Marty333 (Dec 11, 2010)

I agree with Tom. You are buying a tortoise from the pet trade where many of the torts are WC. If you hate them being out of their natural habitat so much then why do you keep them?


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## Missy (Dec 11, 2010)

Ben3233 said:


> Missy said:
> 
> 
> > I think there is cruel and just plain dumb. I don't think it was cruel but I would not do it to my torts. The thing that worried me was the pool chemicals and the dog. Some videos are harmless and just plain funny like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R3BYCT5oWw Just my opinion.
> ...



I agree.


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## abra (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't think it was that cruel, I'm sure the guy doesn't just put a camera on the turtle everyday. I just think the camera should have been a bit lighter so he could swim easier.


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## John (Dec 11, 2010)

I think the pet trade as a whole is cruel,who made us god?what gives us the right too take a living creatures freedom?yet protest when the same is done too us.


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## Isa (Dec 11, 2010)

Tom said:


> For Laura and Isa, I don't equate a snake eating with sticking a camera on a RES for entertainment. Snakes gotta eat, even though you don't wanna see it. RES don't NEED to run around with cameras on their backs.
> 
> I'm just sayin'... two different things.



Tom, I know they have to eat and I understand that. But why posting so many pictures... 
I know they are 2 different things but showing plenty of pics of an animal being eaten can not be well digested for certain people (it was not even specified in the title) like the video, some people liked it (I did not) and some people did not. I do not want to start a debate or any arguments it was just my opinion


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## John (Dec 11, 2010)

Marty333 said:


> I agree with Tom. You are buying a tortoise from the pet trade where many of the torts are WC. If you hate them being out of their natural habitat so much then why do you keep them?



what?

at least the mice are dead you all feed torts live plants.once i fed mine brocoli the screaming was horrible


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## Tom (Dec 11, 2010)

Isa said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > For Laura and Isa, I don't equate a snake eating with sticking a camera on a RES for entertainment. Snakes gotta eat, even though you don't wanna see it. RES don't NEED to run around with cameras on their backs.
> ...



Okay. Fair enough.



squamata said:


> I think the pet trade as a whole is cruel,who made us god?what gives us the right too take a living creatures freedom?yet protest when the same is done too us.



Are you kidding? Look at that list in your signature. You keep tons of captive animals, but you are preaching against captive animals at the same time.

... I hate dog training and it should never happen, now please excuse me while I go modify the behavior of all my dogs...

Further, equating human imprisonment and a captive tortoise in a furnished, planted backyard is a REALLY big jump. Way too big of a jump for me to NOT call you on it. I'm not playing god, I'm just havin' fun with some pets, man.


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## Laura (Dec 11, 2010)

I was trying to make a point.. I think I did.. 
I have nothing against snakes or keepers of.. I understand what they they eat and why.. 
I love cheetahs and they kill small cute antelope and eat raw meat ( horse meat) in captivity,, and even tho nature is facinating and I love to watch it,, some things I dont want to see.. and I think a warning in the topic of a post if it includes such is a great idea. 
And Im not a vegatarian.. but I dont want to know Who Im eating..


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## lincoln3313 (Dec 11, 2010)

I just read this topic's posts, and now realize that it is 10 minutes of my life I will never get back.


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## coreyc (Dec 12, 2010)

squamata said:


> at the end of the day,a person who really cared for these animals would not have the erge too make them perform tricks or stunts.this video and all like it represent the popular human misconception that we are so much bigger than nature.i do not agree with the pet trade,if it did not exsist and i was givin the chance too take something from its home and cage it for my enjoyment i would not.all my life ive hunted reptiles and studied them in their enviroment when i was a child i brought them home,that was a long time ago.i havnt taken anything from nature in twenty years.the animals i keep come strickly from the pet trade,i do not keep them for my pleasure,as much as i keep them too provide a decent life for them irespect them and they facinate me.i do not name them,i do not paint them,i do not dress them up,and i dont make videos of them doing silly stuff.i am happy that i am able too posses them,but it is unfortunate that i am.



If you do not agree with the pet trade then why do you have so many animals if no one bought any there would not be a pet trade supply an demand your contributing to it to. you should not have ANY As far as showing a picture of your snake eating you didn't think about offending people should we have gotten mod to step in ? Is putting a SANTA hat and scruff on my cat for a picture animal abuse then call the cop's


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## John (Dec 12, 2010)

I cannot single handedly shut down the pet trade,but i can make sure a few animals live good lives,becuase i assure you a large number do not.i also practice catch and release,my son and i photograph are catches.


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## coreyc (Dec 12, 2010)

squamata said:


> I cannot single handedly shut down the pet trade,but i can make sure a few animals live good lives,becuase i assure you a large number do not.i also practice catch and release,my son and i photograph are catches.





your right you can not single handedly shut down the pet trade but you do not contribute to it ether if your so against it. your just justifying it by saying you want to give a few a good home I'm not saying there not in a good home because I think they are but I also think you like keeping exotics just like so many other people do


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## exoticsdr (Dec 12, 2010)

....and how stressful for the animal do you think the "catch" is, in catch-and release? The photography part is great, but why not try to do it while remaining "invisible" to your subject matter. No offense meant, but your arguments, thus far, are boardering on "bi-polar". When you finally get so disgusted with your significant contribution to the pet trade (14 little captives, by my count), let me know and I will personally help you rehome them.


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## John (Dec 12, 2010)

exoticsdr said:


> ....and how stressful for the animal do you think the "catch" is, in catch-and release? The photography part is great, but why not try to do it while remaining "invisible" to your subject matter. No offense meant, but your arguments, thus far, are boardering on "bi-polar". When you finally get so disgusted with your significant contribution to the pet trade (14 little captives, by my count), let me know and I will personally help you rehome them.


if there were no pets where would you be doc,think maybe you might be a little biased here?just a little?


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## exoticsdr (Dec 12, 2010)

squamata said:


> exoticsdr said:
> 
> 
> > ....and how stressful for the animal do you think the "catch" is, in catch-and release? The photography part is great, but why not try to do it while remaining "invisible" to your subject matter. No offense meant, but your arguments, thus far, are boardering on "bi-polar". When you finally get so disgusted with your significant contribution to the pet trade (14 little captives, by my count), let me know and I will personally help you rehome them.
> ...



Biased? In what way? This is my chosen profession, not the only profession that I have worked at and not the only way that I can make a living.

Medicine/Surgery is just a fraction of what I do on a daily basis. Most of my day is taken up with answering questions....TEACHING. More often that not, I am trying to talk people out of owning certain animals as pets or certain breeds of dog or cat that they just have to have because a certain celebrity has decided to own one or they saw one on the news.

One thing is for certain, my clients bring their animals to me because they want to provide the best care for their PETS. They enjoy them, they interact with them, they name them, they make them a part of their family.

My confustion with you is directly related to your obvious dislike for the pet trade and pet ownership, comparing the keeping of pets to human prison, YET you choose to keep little prisoners of your own. Back to my professional bias, none of your money has passed to my hands for the veterinary advice I've given you, nor has it to any other member of this forum or other forum.


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## John (Dec 12, 2010)

It's very simple if the trade did not exsist I would not go out and start it.do i contribute too it,yes.do i like or agree with all i see of it no.this thred started over a turtle with a camera strapped on iys back that people on the forum thought was cool,I disagree i feel it promotes people doing rediculous things too animals,such as owning one because a celebrity does.anyone remember when caimans were the big rage,people were buying them for children.i personally witnessed a breeder have too refuse selling a piosonous snake too a guy who was gonna buy it for his kid,there is enough bad and stupid out there in pet land without promoting it,or making doing silly things too animals popular.


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## abra (Dec 12, 2010)

I think your over reacting. The guy put a camera on his turtle once for 2 minutes. And the description says this:

I would like to make some things clear.
1. The water is completely free of chlorine. The water recive a special treatment, what is absolutely safe for the turtle.
2. The camera is neutral buoyancy. When they jump to the pool they always go to the bottom because it's the most safety place for them. 
3. This kind of turtles can keep their breath for minutes.
4. She (turtle) is 2o years old. Not bad I think.
5. She has her own pond with plants and other turtles.

I'm sure she'll live, it didn't harm her in any way so what's the problem? If anything the camera looked a little too big.


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## John (Dec 12, 2010)

what was the point of doing that at all?what was gained from it?other than a pretty large debate


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## Marty333 (Dec 12, 2010)

He found enjoyment and something interesting about it and wanted to share it with others that was the point. He was having fun with his pet. Is that so wrong?


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## abra (Dec 12, 2010)

What's the point of doing anything with pets? Either for there well being or for fun. There was nothing to gain nothing to lose, so why not?


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## yagyujubei (Dec 12, 2010)

hypÃ‚Â·oÃ‚Â·crite [ hÃƒÂ­ppÃ‰â„¢ krÃƒÂ¬t ] (plural hypÃ‚Â·oÃ‚Â·crites) 


noun 

Definition: 

somebody feigning high principles: somebody who pretends to have admirable principles, beliefs, or feelings but behaves otherwise


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## John (Dec 12, 2010)

well if the stance of the forum is that reptiles are toys,and its okay too play with them then i give up.


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## abra (Dec 12, 2010)

Who said they were toys? Your opinion doesn't make sense to me. The turtle was not harmed at all. I'm sure she enjoyed having a big pool to swim in. I have a feeling you just wont admit your wrong and move on. But whatever, if your opinion wont change then there is no reason for a debate about it.


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## matt41gb (Dec 12, 2010)

This is by far the most annoying series of posts that I have ever read. I declare this post officially dead!!!!!!!!!!!!


-Matt


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## exoticsdr (Dec 12, 2010)

Matt,

haha...yeah, it is....kind of like a car wreck, ....you just have to slow down and take a peek


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## Torty Mom (Dec 12, 2010)

Squamta, YOU ARE the one that started the debate! Seriously!

Here a few words of advice for your from me, for free! I'll waive my hazard pay!!

If someone writes something or posts something that I don't agree with, I DON'T READ IT OR LOOK AT IT! You should try it, it's actually pretty easy to do! I just move on to the next thing! 

I hardly EVER comment on your posts because I feel you are always looking for a FIGHT and personally I am a lover not a fighter! This is just another post that proves my feelings. 

In another post you said you were shunned, so not true. I felt as though you were again looking to argue. 

Your passionate for your animals, I get that, so is everyone else here. Try to look for the good in situations and not always come out of your corner swinging! I did not like the camera thing, so I chose NOT to comment. I do NOT like your snake pictures where it is eating another animal, I do not look or comment, and I will not judge you based on your pictures you choose to post! So, please don't do it to others, can't we all just get along! I am off my soap box now and I leave you with this picture: 







I am sure you are a great guy, when your tortie was sick, I chose to comment and wish you both well.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 12, 2010)

squamata said:


> snakes eating is nature a turtle running around with a camera on its back diving in a pool is not.and the first time that turtle went up for air he was lifted watch the video and pay attention



Turtles can hold their breath for an extremely long time. He didn't need to be lifted up. But it shows the owner's concern for the turtle, doesn't it?


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## John (Dec 12, 2010)

peace out.


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## terryo (Dec 12, 2010)

Your passionate for your animals, I get that, so is everyone else here. Try to look for the good in situations and not always come out of your corner swinging! I did not like the camera thing, so I chose NOT to comment. I do NOT like your snake pictures where it is eating another animal, I do not look or comment, and I will not judge you based on your pictures you choose to post! So, please don't do it to others, can't we all just get along! I am off my soap box now and I leave you with this picture: 






I am sure you are a great guy, when your tortie was sick, I chose to comment and wish you both well. 


[/quote]

IMO....I just want to say that this was a wonderful post that we could all learn from.......myself included.
One other thing....I think it's great to have fun with your pet, as long as you aren't stressing him out while having your fun. Every pet that we take into our care deserves the best treatment we can give him. I don't think that any animal should have to get one drop of stress for us to have our fun with it. I have worked with water turtles for over 30 years, and IMO, that turtle was clearly stressed out. I think it's like putting a 50 lb. bag of cement on your back and having a big bear chase you. Wouldn't be fun for me. But...again....everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Every debate is a learning experience. All we have to do is keep it civil, and respect each other's opinion, even if we disagree. That's why this forum is so great......try having a debate like this on another forum and see what happens. Ha!


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## tobibaby (Dec 12, 2010)

mine was 20 min that i will never get back i had an extra page to read.. really guys, all of us here love animals.. i was against captivity of tortoises, but to be honest, my life has been full of life since i got Tobi.. we dont abuse each other we just have fun . Really is it worth it to get ur blood boiled over this, No, there was no slaughtering, killing, or beating going on in the video please just like Rodney says " cant we all just get along" 



lincoln3313 said:


> I just read this topic's posts, and now realize that it is 10 minutes of my life I will never get back.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Dec 13, 2010)

Torty Mom said:


> Squamta, YOU ARE the one that started the debate! Seriously!
> 
> Here a few words of advice for your from me, for free! I'll waive my hazard pay!!
> 
> ...


Just Love your signature picture.


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## Torty Mom (Dec 13, 2010)

Aldabraman, I think those pictures are from a zoo, the tortoise adopted the hippo! Super cute! I figured you would like it!  It's all about love......as love knows no boundaries!!


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## Isa (Dec 13, 2010)

Torty Mom said:


> Aldabraman, I think those pictures are from a zoo, the tortoise adopted the hippo! Super cute! I figured you would like it!  It's all about love......as love knows no boundaries!!



I loveeeee Owen and Mzee  I have 2 books about them


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## exoticsdr (Dec 13, 2010)

Torty Mom said:


> Aldabraman, I think those pictures are from a zoo, the tortoise adopted the hippo! Super cute! I figured you would like it!  It's all about love......as love knows no boundaries!!



Actually, I rmember those pictures shortly after the tsunami's several years back, supposedly the baby hippo was a survivor and adopted the tort as "mommy" after it was rescued.

Here is a snopes link http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/hippo.asp


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## Torty Mom (Dec 13, 2010)

Thanks Todd, I will check that out!


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