# Sulcatas are aggressive and everyone should stop breeding????



## Maiasmom

Ok don't jump down my throat for the subject line! I was quoting something I recently read that was posted by a rescue organization. I never knew Sulcatas were overly aggressive and lay 100 eggs a year... Maybe it's because I'm new to all this but the overly aggressive part really had my scratching my head I've been around adults males and females and they never seemed aggressive towards people, I can see that being said during mating to another male competing but this was pointed towards people. 
"sulcatas are the third largest species of tortoise in the world weighing up to 200 pounds or more, attaining this size in a very short period of time. Adult female sulcatas can easily produce 50 -100 eggs a year" "destructive non-housebroken animal of this size. A fully-grown sulcata is strong and aggressive" 
I'm assuming in this one they are talking about wild caught ones? "These include infecting native wildlife with parasites and foreign diseases"

Can anyone else shed some light on this please


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## Cowboy_Ken

â€œAnd they have huge teeth!"


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## mike taylor

They are bulldozers for sure. If they want it moved they will move it . If they can't move it they try to dig under it or climb over it. They will ram people if they fill threatened. But for the most part I have never heard of one eating a person. But they do lay a lot of eggs . They are baby makers . I do think we should try to rescue the ones that need homes not buy them from breeders . Don't hit me I know a lot of you guys breed them . Thats why we live in the USA we have the freedom to do what we please . But someone sounds like they got rammed by a big sulcata at a overwhelmed rescue facility.


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## Tom

This is propaganda from a rescue organization. There are a few individuals and rescues that like to shout out how the sky is falling and there is a horrible sulcata overpopulation problem. They have a lot of sulcatas at some of these rescues because:
a. They usually charge a very high "adoption fee" of several hundred dollars.
b. They have to come to your house and decide if you and your yard are fit to adopt one of their tortoises.
c. You have to sign a ridiculous contract with all sorts of provisions like "they can repossess the tortoise at any time for any reason", or " the tortoise can only be given back to them and never to a friend or family member", and "you can NEVER" breed the tortoise.

By contrast, if a sulcata somehow ends up at a local shelter here it is adopted within minutes of becoming available. Of course the adoption fee is small, and there is no contract, and no one has to inspect your home, and no one tells you what you can or can't do with your own tortoise. I know of a rescue that does NOT do a, b, or c above and they adopt out their incoming sulcatas within hours or days. I personally have helped about 2 dozen large sulcatas find new homes over the years and never had any problem doing so, because I did not make people pay money, submit to inspection, or agree to absurd terms.


Agressive? Sure they are. Big males will try to kill each other. I have heard of a person tripping on one, or getting an ankle rammed, but that is not common. They will also bite a finger if you leave out there a little too long while hand feeding.

50-100 eggs per year? Yep. That's about right. Per female. There is a big demand for them and they are a great species. Like any other species they have needs that are specific to them. They grow large, eat a lot, dig big holes, and will generally wreck a back yard. Those are some negative attributes to be sure. Here are some positives: They grow big, they eat a lot, they dig cool burrows, they are super friendly and outgoing most of the time, they are beautiful majestic looking animals (depending on the eye of the beholder), and they make lots of babies to sell to help pay for all their expenses, and let other people get the same enjoyment that you get from them by raising and caring for their OWN sulcata, as you are doing now. I, for one, think it is fantastic that another sulcata will NEVER have to be taken from the wild to meet the demands of the pet trade.

This is a hot topic. Opinions and emotions run high on both sides of this argument.


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## Jacqui

mike taylor said:


> They are bulldozers for sure. If they want it moved they will move it . If they can't move it they try to dig under it or climb over it. They will ram people if they fill threatened. But for the most part I have never heard of one eating a person. But they do lay a lot of eggs . They are baby makers . I do think we should try to rescue the ones that need homes not buy them from breeders . Don't hit me I know a lot of you guys breed them . Thats why we live in the USA we have the freedom to do what we please . But someone sounds like they got rammed by a big sulcata at a overwhelmed rescue facility.



Hey, I think you made some great points and nobody should be hitting you. 

I think a big sulcata, certainly a large male, could inflict a lot of damage to a small child and a lesser amount to an adult who is not paying attention. Of course, I have saw some pretty nice bites coming from a tiny mudturtle too.  When around any animal, you have to be aware of what they are doing and where they are because they can harm you and not always meaning to do so.

I do wonder/worry about what will happen like 20 years from now, when all these babies have become adults in full breeding mode and also outgrowing so many of their homes.


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## Tom

Jacqui said:


> I do wonder/worry about what will happen like 20 years from now, when all these babies have become adults in full breeding mode and also outgrowing so many of their homes.



I wonder about this too.

I also remember lots of other people wondering this in the early 90's when so many hatchlings started hitting the market and the price started dropping.

As a point of reference, many of my neighbors, friends and family have sulcatas, and none of them are breeding.


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## wellington

We will all be running for our lives as they all go on the attack. Okay, I guess we don't really have to run. We will all be crawling for our lives as they all go on the attack. . Okay, sorry, seriously. I do always wonder where all those babies go. Are there really that many people that wants a giant tort that could uproot their home? What about those adds wanting to buy whole clutches of them? Who are they and who buys all those babies? My opinion, breed them if you can house them, if you can't sell them. I'm not into culling any animal. If I couldn't sell a puppy for whatever reason, it had a forever home with me.


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## Jacqui

wellington said:


> We will all be running for our lives as they all go on the attack. Okay, I guess we don't really have to run. We will all be crawling for our lives as they all go on the attack. .



!! I just am so sitting on the fence on this topic. I honestly think if I had a female and she laid eggs, I would be hatching them. I know how hard it is for me to ignore, when the red eared slider females happen to have eggs (just for the record, I only keep females) and with how adorable hatchling sulcatas are, I just don't think I am strong enough to not try to keep those eggs viable. 

Along with the vast numbers being hatched each year and the ever growing numbers becoming mature, topped off with more knowledge on how to care for them I just see a higher and higher number of them thriving to adulthood. Are we going to be kicking ourselves for not stopping or atleast trying to slow that flood some day in the future? I am really scared the answer will be yes.  Of course, who knows some mystery disease may come along and wipe the populations down. When do we say enough is enough? Such hard questions with so many sides to weigh.


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## RuthJanice

I am new to the tortoise arena but not to the saving of animals. I adopted a young male sulcata and educated myself thanks to this forum and the wonderful people willing to share. I have no intention of acquiring a female or breeding for all of the reasons everyone listed above. I am middle aged and have the ability to provide a nice life for my adopted sulcata but worry that once he outlives me and then my adult children what will become of him. It does surprise me how many young people choose this species of tortoise given how much time, money, space and care they require. I can only hope they have a future plan or will take the laboring ore in finding a suitable home once their home no longer qualifies and do not just simply release them like many people do with dogs, cats, etc. You know what they say.... the road to hell is paved with good intentions.


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## wellington

I hear ya. As much as I would love to hatch at least one tortoise, I don't know if I could, if I were to get a couple female leopards. Even though there isn't an over abundance of leopards yet, I would not have the room to keep all that I may get stuck with and there are so many tortoises in general needing a home. 
Okay, I don't want to start an argument here. So, just remember, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I believe we will regret it in the near future. Because, in my opinion, man ruins everything, mostly because of greed. Then, and only then, not before it happens, it's always after the fact, man will try to fix it. 
I'm not sure anyone is considering the long term. 
Think about it. Dogs, the longest life span is 13-15 or so years. There are hundreds or thousands killed every day at shelters, yet there is still an over abundance of homeless dogs. Can you imagine tortoises, whose shortest longevity is what 25-30 years, but the Sullies, over 100 years. Yes, I think the time sadly will come where owning and/or breeding will be outlawed. 
Breeders should consider this and hold off for a few years. Then start up again down the road. Maybe, if they self regulated, they could stop what I think will be inevitable, outlawing
Now that said, I would love too know how many actual "breeders" there are. You know, ones that breeds all the time. Not the few smaller ones that has like one sully and it has a clutch a year.


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## RuthJanice

Well said Barb.


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## TommyZ

I say, humans are aggressive and everyone should stop breeding them...


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## mike taylor

I'm not downing no one you want to breed them by all means breed them . I have no problem with it . Why not breed the ones that need help to stay on the earth for our children. If it takes breeding sulcatad to pay for it Why not . I never thought of it the way Tom said it . When Kelly found Harry I said I would like to have him . Kelly was going to drive to Houston to give him to me no questions asked . I could not let Kelly spend his time and money when he is giving me a awesome tortoise for free. Plus I got to see how he keeps his torts and I learned something. So if there is people like Kelly and his cool mother there will always be help for homeless tortoises . Almost forgotten about Yvonne she's a tortoise rescue too. I would love to be a rescue but I know I don't have much more room . So I'll have to be choose wisely . But keep rockin If it wasn't for Tom we would have a lot of sulcatas dieing due too dehydration and miss information.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

Sorry but they haven't outlawed breeding cats or dogs why would they 
Outlaw breeding turtles and torts 
They haven't Evan outlawed breeding 
Res yet and they are a problem
But don't worry I don't have a skully
Not Evan one


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## wellington

TommyZ said:


> I say, humans are aggressive and everyone should stop breeding them...



LOL, I'm for this one


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## TommyZ

See.... lol


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## wellington

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> Sorry but they haven't outlawed breeding cats or dogs why would they
> Outlaw breeding turtles and torts
> They haven't Evan outlawed breeding
> Res yet and they are a problem
> But don't worry I don't have a skully
> Not Evan one



I just want to clarify, so there is no misunderstanding. I don't want them to outlaw and I don't have a problem with people breeding for whatever reason. I just feel that if it does continue, it may be a bad day down the road. 
As for why would they, because reptiles, period, are not as popular as cats and dogs and they are always after one type of reptile.




TommyZ said:


> See.... lol



LMFAO


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## diamondbp

I think if the economy keeps going in the tanker like it is currently then where all these tortoises go will be the least of our worries.

I just hope that in America, the country somehow stays healthy enough for people to provide happy healthy homes for their tortoises. But if things go even further south economically I could see a larger problem arising with rehoming tortoises. 

But as states earlier, we've had that issue with cats/dogs for decades.

I believe as long as we personally do what we can and try our best to provide what's best for OUR TORTOISES then we should sleep easy at night. What others do with THEIR tortoises is on them and their conscience


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## wellington

diamondbp said:


> I think if the economy keeps going in the tanker like it is currently then where all these tortoises go will be the least of our worries.
> 
> I just hope that in America, the country somehow stays healthy enough for people to provide happy healthy homes for their tortoises. But if things go even further south economically I could see a larger problem arising with rehoming tortoises.
> 
> But as states earlier, we've had that issue with cats/dogs for decades.
> 
> I believe as long as we personally do what we can and try our best to provide what's best for OUR TORTOISES then we should sleep easy at night. What others do with THEIR tortoises is on them and their conscience



I know someone that likes having lots of leopards. If times get tuff, I'm shipping Tatum to, umm, you


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## stinax182

sooner or later the government is going to involve themselves and then no one may be able to breed them. but honestly, i believe there should be a permit issued or something to breed anything that large and destructive to it's environment. you have to get a permit to build onto your existing property why not a 50lb animal that could dig up pipes, power lines, and break fences. that being said, in my mind the permit wouldn't be hard to get for most people.....in a climate the animal is comfortable with and not in a 2nd floor apartment, preferably.


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## JennBell0725

Im going to have to put my two cents in. Yes sulcatas can be destructive and yes they can lay lots of eggs but the fact is. Not many of those hatchlings make it to adult size. Its just the sad truth. While I bet the survival rate is higher now than before. Also Sulcatas burrow naturally so a nice snug box is enough for a lot of them. Yes they can tear up stuff but dogs do that. So do horses and pigs and other live stock. Sulcatas maybe abundant in some areas but I think its more prevalent in the west. Where the climate is more favorable. Not to mention I dont think its the destruction of the larger sulcatas that cause the problem its people not housing them properly. Most of the keepers on here have nice solid walled enclosures and have no problems. Grass is always greener on the other side. Just like a cow will escape to get to better pastures if not fence adequately.


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## Maiasmom

RuthJanice said:


> I am new to the tortoise arena but not to the saving of animals. I adopted a young male sulcata and educated myself thanks to this forum and the wonderful people willing to share. I have no intention of acquiring a female or breeding for all of the reasons everyone listed above. I am middle aged and have the ability to provide a nice life for my adopted sulcata but worry that once he outlives me and then my adult children what will become of him. It does surprise me how many young people choose this species of tortoise given how much time, money, space and care they require. I can only hope they have a future plan or will take the laboring ore in finding a suitable home once their home no longer qualifies and do not just simply release them like many people do with dogs, cats, etc. You know what they say.... the road to hell is paved with good intentions.



I'm 23 and we have a sulcata but it was a family decision and our 5 year old daughter was a huge part of picking Maia. Our daughter is part of her everyday life helps feed her soak her check her temps etc. my hopes are that once Maia does outlive myself and Ron then our daughter will be a "pro" at her care and pass the knowledge of her care onto her children. We have every intention of Maia being an "heirloom" per say





She asked if Maia could lay with her will I rubbed her arm so she could fall asleep


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## turtlesteve

I think Tom's post sums it up pretty well as far as I'm concerned. 

I'm a little bit surprised to see so many people that worry about overpopulation. Breeding generally requires substantial effort on the keeper's part, so I think it will cease if the demand (=price) falls below a certain level. Consider the only species that has really reached problem status is the red-eared slider, but only after mass breeding 10's of millions per year by commercial farming operations. I strongly doubt that breeding of sulcatas can scale to this level.


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## sibi

Sulcatas are very cute when they hatch. They continue to be cute as they grow. Many buy sulcatas because of this. When they realize how big they will grow, how expensive it is to feed and house them adequately, then they decide to sell their sully or let them go. Usually those sullies average age about 5 years old, more or less. That's a problem, just like cats and dogs that are abandoned and are put in shelters. After a given number of days, if a cat or dog isn't adopted, they are euthanized. This, I think, will be the future of abandoned sullies.

Having said that, I agree with many here who think this is propaganda against breeding sulcatas and trying to scare people into not buying one. Like many said, sullies CAN be destructive, but not always. If an owner constructs a well-built house, and provides to all their needs, like plenty of space, the likelihood of a sully destroying and reeking havoc on property or on humans is diminished considerably! Is it still possible that despite all efforts to provide to all their needs, they can still seek and destroy? Yes! But, not any more than other domesticated or exotic animal many own. 

Here's my fear. If we allow agencies or other groups of people to influence us by appealing to our emotions on sensitive issues like this, where will it end? Will it end with a ban on breeding? Will it end with people dictating what sorts of animals we can or cannot keep? The answer is NO! It will not end there. There will always be those who will impose their will on us. That COULD mean a ban on ownership of all animals, domestic, exotic, and wild animals. How would you feel about that?


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## RuthJanice

Maiasmom said:


> RuthJanice said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am new to the tortoise arena but not to the saving of animals. I adopted a young male sulcata and educated myself thanks to this forum and the wonderful people willing to share. I have no intention of acquiring a female or breeding for all of the reasons everyone listed above. I am middle aged and have the ability to provide a nice life for my adopted sulcata but worry that once he outlives me and then my adult children what will become of him. It does surprise me how many young people choose this species of tortoise given how much time, money, space and care they require. I can only hope they have a future plan or will take the laboring ore in finding a suitable home once their home no longer qualifies and do not just simply release them like many people do with dogs, cats, etc. You know what they say.... the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm 23 and we have a sulcata but it was a family decision and our 5 year old daughter was a huge part of picking Maia. Our daughter is part of her everyday life helps feed her soak her check her temps etc. my hopes are that once Maia does outlive myself and Ron then our daughter will be a "pro" at her care and pass the knowledge of her care onto her children. We have every intention of Maia being an "heirloom" per say
> 
> 
> 
> She asked if Maia could lay with her will I rubbed her arm so she could fall asleep
Click to expand...




So cute. Our children are the future - what a terrific heirloom


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

There are an awful lot of potential homes in these United States with an awful lot of lawns or acreage that can be happily mowed/eaten by a sulcata pet. The trick is to get more people excited about being a tortoise family and more tortoise families that are properly informed so that these lovely creatures can have long term/forever homes with the love and care that comes from being a beloved pet. That is why this forum is so important. Knowledge matters. : )


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## Tom

Thank you Sylvia, and BeeBee too.

I am continually and unpleasantly surprised by the number of people who while keeping exotic pets actually WANT the government to step in and tell other exotic pet keepers what they can and can't do. Is there anyone who truly believes the government would do any good whatsoever if they got involved. Look at anything they touch. Look at the mess in Nevada with the hundreds of DTs euthanized at the government tortoise center. You people really want to be told what you can and can't do by these completely incompetent tortoise killers?

Again, but more clearly this time, THERE IS NOT A SULCATA BREEDING PROBLEM IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA! All that are produced are sold, and yet the market still wants more than are produced annually. Thousands of them are sold over seas too. Unwanted adults quickly find homes when there are not a bunch of hoops to jump through. This emotion based, fact-less, woe is me talk is completely baseless. While it may be baseless, this kind of talk is what will lead to the .gov getting involved. There is no problem. No one needs to "DO" anything. Is there the occasional neglected tortoise that is not raised well? Yes there is. Do we need to encourage the gubment to ruin it for everyone because a fraction of a percentage of people bought a tortoise and then ignored its needs? I think not. We need to do our best to help and educate people and accept the fact that no matter who does or says what, and no matter what the government does or doesn't do, the situation will NEVER be perfect for every tortoise in the land. It can't be. We are talking about human beings. Most of them are good and will do the right thing. A few of them are bad and won't. No law will change this. No permit for good people like me and the other responsible breeders of the world will change this. As animal keepers, we are already under siege. Lets not HELP the opposition take us down.


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## sibi

Amen to that! If anyone thinks that the chances of the gov't getting involved and dictating what we can or cannot do is unrealistic, think again. No one would've ever believed that gov't would spy on our privacy, right? WRONG! After 9/11 America changed. The gov't has stripped us of our privacy. I don't know about you, but I have nothing to hid; yet, I resent my government spying on me. My sense of freedom has diminished greatly. Where will it end? Animal lovers and owners alike should be weary of what this government or gov't backed agencies will do next.


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## ALDABRAMAN

mike taylor said:


> *Thats why we live in the USA we have the freedom to do what we please *



** Amen!

* This was our last drop off, a very active male that destroyed the pen i put him in, lol!*


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## Jacqui

Grandpa Turtle 144 said:


> Sorry but they haven't outlawed breeding cats or dogs why would they
> Outlaw breeding turtles and torts
> They haven't Evan outlawed breeding
> Res yet and they are a problem
> But don't worry I don't have a skully
> Not Evan one



They already do in certain states outlaw breeding to some turtles and tortoises. An example would be the desert tortoise not being able to be breed on purpose. After seeing how the goverment uses it's "brain" to make laws that are well thought out, enforceable, and in the best interest of any human or animal (dripped heavily in sarcasm), I really worry about what could come to pass on that front just based on the current laws we have for regulating turtle/tortoise keeping and breeding)


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

Yeah, the government brain, where We the People have to protect the protected from the protectors. 
God help the animals they do this to. Not just the gopherus on the Nevada side, but all gopherus and all others, like wolves, or wild and domesticated horses ... on and on ...

This, after the People gave the protectors 159 million dollars to protect and they pilfered the money and never planned for sustainability. That government? Idiots, of course. They need to step aside, the People should privatize. Privatization has accountability. Sadly, we have no statesmen in da house, only politicians with no-go(nads) who largely use their positions to serve themselves and not the greater good. Bleh. My only hope is on their heavily weighted bad karma doing us justice. And may we all live as long as a tortoise to be able to see it happen. Have no use for the useless. Like Thomas Jefferson said: â€œI predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.â€ or this, â€œEvery generation needs a new revolutionâ€. 

Government has become one big disappointment after another after another ... never ending, really. 
Memo to selves: must unite and stop.


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## Jacqui

BeeBee*BeeLeaves said:


> There are an awful lot of potential homes in these United States with an awful lot of lawns or acreage that can be happily mowed/eaten by a sulcata pet. The trick is to get more people excited about being a tortoise family and more tortoise families that are properly informed so that these lovely creatures can have long term/forever homes with the love and care that comes from being a beloved pet. That is why this forum is so important. Knowledge matters. : )



I agree with many of your points, except one.... sulcatas as lawn mowers.  Mine do not seem to be up to the job and do rather lopsided at best "mowing".  I wonder is there a school to train sulcatas how do a good job of mowing?


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## Saleama

mike taylor said:


> I'm not downing no one you want to breed them by all means breed them . I have no problem with it . Why not breed the ones that need help to stay on the earth for our children. If it takes breeding sulcatad to pay for it Why not . I never thought of it the way Tom said it . When Kelly found Harry I said I would like to have him . Kelly was going to drive to Houston to give him to me no questions asked . I could not let Kelly spend his time and money when he is giving me a awesome tortoise for free. Plus I got to see how he keeps his torts and I learned something. So if there is people like Kelly and his cool mother there will always be help for homeless tortoises . Almost forgotten about Yvonne she's a tortoise rescue too. I would love to be a rescue but I know I don't have much more room . So I'll have to be choose wisely . But keep rockin If it wasn't for Tom we would have a lot of sulcatas dieing due too dehydration and miss information.



Kelly's place is awesome. He also has more than twice the ammount of space he is using available to use in the future. I would love to have that kind of space available and the dedication he has to his animals. 
On topic, I believe there will come a time when there may be too many of these wonderful creatures being produced but I don't believe it is any time soon. I have a few but I don't know anyone outside of those I have bought from or met her, that own a single one. I have met just four people in person that actually have Sulcatas and only two of them actually breed or allow them to breed them.
I also think that the trade in these babies, while it may be brisk now will decline as people become educated and start to understand what is going on. I myself have purchased all the ones I currently have, but I will not do so again (other than getting another Leopard or two) because I now know about all the animals that need good homes out there.


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## Tom

I keep hearing a recurring thing in multiple posts that I would just like to comment on. Several people have mentioned that sometime in the future we will have a problem because of the numbers that are being produced. For the benefit of people new to the tortoise world and people who have no connection to the "reptile industry", I'd like to let everyone know that what is going on today has been going on for nearly 20 years. There might be a small percentage more being produce now than in 1993, but there are probably less being produced and sold now in the US than there were five years ago. My wholesalers keep asking me for more babies than what I can produce and they are coming up short and not always able to fill their orders. Some of the biggest producers are shipping almost all of their babies over seas.

I'll say it again, we do not have a problem with overbreeding sulcatas in this country. We have been producing babies at this rate for at least a decade, probably two.


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## wellington

Tom said:


> I keep hearing a recurring thing in multiple posts that I would just like to comment on. Several people have mentioned that sometime in the future we will have a problem because of the numbers that are being produced. For the benefit of people new to the tortoise world and people who have no connection to the "reptile industry", I'd like to let everyone know that what is going on today has been going on for nearly 20 years. There might be a small percentage more being produce now than in 1993, but there are probably less being produced and sold now in the US than there were five years ago. My wholesalers keep asking me for more babies than what I can produce and they are coming up short and not always able to fill their orders. Some of the biggest producers are shipping almost all of their babies over seas.
> 
> I'll say it again, we do not have a problem with overbreeding sulcatas in this country. We have been producing babies at this rate for at least a decade, probably two.



I'm not in the reptile "world" I just own some and only been in the tortoise "world" since getting Tatum. I don't really know how long all these tortoises have been available for sale to the public. Where I come from Michigan and where I am now, Chicago, except for one store I know of, all we have for sale here are Russians, except CL. Of course I am learning of more breeders (maybe they are) closer to my areas. So, to me , when I see all these tortoises for sale, not only Sullies, but all the others, it first amazes me how many species there are, but also how many are always for sale. I know only one person outside this forum that owns a tortoise, it is a sully and she just got it last year and it's because she does turtle rescuing so now they are dumping their tortoises on her. So, for me, I just can't imagine all these tortoises, specially Sullies, actually being able to find homes. So, yes, to me it seems there are an awful lot being hatched, bought, but then dumped. I do think it may be worse in areas like mine. I'm all for doing what you can afford, and the area you live, should not prevent you from getting what you want, so I don't believe a sully should on,y be sold to people in warm climate. I do think though, more breeders should, if they don't, ask questions of the buyers, give the correct info on size, care, destructiveness, etc, so the buyers know what they are really getting and hopefully will only purchase with the intent of keeping for a life time. We all know the bad info that is out there. So, yes, the perspective buyer does need to be responsible and do their home work. But if they stumble on the wrong info sight, or ask that pet store owner, that only wants to make a sale, well, they won't be well informed and that sully will end up with unwanted in no time. 
I'm not for government telling me what I can and can't do. I am for breeders of any animal being responsible in every way for what they breed and that responsibility should go all the way to who they are selling their offspring to.


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## Neal

I would like to throw out a different perspective on the subject. I didn't read the posts in detail, but I did not see this viewpoint brought out in a cursory review of the posts. Before I do, I just want to be clear that I do not have any issues with people breeding sulcatas. I did see the point made that we (well, most of us) live in America and have the right to breed sulcatas if we want and I support that.

I don't think I'm way out of line in saying that a large percentage of sulcatas produced came from right here in AZ. And, we actually do have a bit of a problem with too many sulcatas being produced here. But, the problem is not what you expect. Don't worry about the hundreds and thousands of sulcatas here, they're doing just fine. It's the desert tortoises that are feeling the negative effects of so many sulcatas being produced. 

Why is that the problem fo us Arizonan's? Well, the way I understand it, a certain herptile sanctuary here facilitates the desert tortoise adoption process for the state. They house the animals and I do believe they handle the actual adoptions. This particular sanctuary houses several hundred adult sulcatas and intentionally breeds and sells the hatchlings all over the country. So when someone interested in adopting a desert tortoises goes to the facility to view or to pick up the tortoise, the caretakers will encourage them to take home a sulcata which are much cooler than a desert tortoise. "Why do you want a little old desert tortoise when you can have one of these cute little friendly giants?" This results in overcrowded pens of desert tortoises, of which I have seen first hand, and subjects them to an increased risk of sharing severe diseases. The vet I frequently use has shared his experiences of when he used to volunteer for this facility. He no longer does. I won't share what he has specifically told me as I don't want to misquote him, but his experiences make a very compelling case that the desert tortoises are in an extremely challenging predicament as a direct result of so many sulcatas being produced.

So maybe it's more of an ethical dilemma. Is it our primary responsibility to make sure that the native tortoises are taken care of before the exotics? If you think it is, then yes, I would argue that there is a problem with so many sulcatas.

So then, is the answer to stop breeding sulcatas? I personally don't think that's the best solution, but it might be a plausible solution. Sulcatas a great tortoises and they actually do make great pets for a lot of people. What I think would be more effective is changing the desert tortoise laws, along with getting the tortoises away from the unethical people responsible for the adoption process. Changed to what? I don't think I have a better solution, but what is happening now doesn't seem to be working very well. 

Again, I don't really have strong feelings against the breeding of sulcatas. I was just offering a different point of view and I was waiting for an excuse to share my anti-sulcata propaganda. j/k


----------



## mike taylor

What will happen in the end ???? It will probably be the torts that suffer just like dogs and cats . They are put on an adoption list. If no one adopts them then are put to sleep . But I don't see this happening for some time . As long as I have room and the money to put into keeping tortoises I will do what I can . I have three boys that love ny tortoises just ad much as me . So my guys should be well cared for long after I'm gone .


----------



## wellington

Neal said:


> I would like to throw out a different perspective on the subject. I didn't read the posts in detail, but I did not see this viewpoint brought out in a cursory review of the posts. Before I do, I just want to be clear that I do not have any issues with people breeding sulcatas. I did see the point made that we (well, most of us) live in America and have the right to breed sulcatas if we want and I support that.
> 
> I don't think I'm way out of line in saying that a large percentage of sulcatas produced came from right here in AZ. And, we actually do have a bit of a problem with too many sulcatas being produced here. But, the problem is not what you expect. Don't worry about the hundreds and thousands of sulcatas here, they're doing just fine. It's the desert tortoises that are feeling the negative effects of so many sulcatas being produced.
> 
> Why is that the problem fo us Arizonan's? Well, the way I understand it, a certain herptile sanctuary here facilitates the desert tortoise adoption process for the state. They house the animals and I do believe they handle the actual adoptions. This particular sanctuary houses several hundred adult sulcatas and intentionally breeds and sells the hatchlings all over the country. So when someone interested in adopting a desert tortoises goes to the facility to view or to pick up the tortoise, the caretakers will encourage them to take home a sulcata which are much cooler than a desert tortoise. "Why do you want a little old desert tortoise when you can have one of these cute little friendly giants?" This results in overcrowded pens of desert tortoises, of which I have seen first hand, and subjects them to an increased risk of sharing severe diseases. The vet I frequently use has shared his experiences of when he used to volunteer for this facility. He no longer does. I won't share what he has specifically told me as I don't want to misquote him, but his experiences make a very compelling case that the desert tortoises are in an extremely challenging predicament as a direct result of so many sulcatas being produced.
> 
> So maybe it's more of an ethical dilemma. Is it our primary responsibility to make sure that the native tortoises are taken care of before the exotics? If you think it is, then yes, I would argue that there is a problem with so many sulcatas.
> 
> So then, is the answer to stop breeding sulcatas? I personally don't think that's the best solution, but it might be a plausible solution. Sulcatas a great tortoises and they actually do make great pets for a lot of people. What I think would be more effective is changing the desert tortoise laws, along with getting the tortoises away from the unethical people responsible for the adoption process. Changed to what? I don't think I have a better solution, but what is happening now doesn't seem to be working very well.
> 
> Again, I don't really have strong feelings against the breeding of sulcatas. I was just offering a different point of view and I was waiting for an excuse to share my anti-sulcata propaganda. j/k






That's sad. Again, man and greed. It sounds like they became a "rescue" so they could sell their Sullies.


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## Neal

This particular place has been discussed on this forum several times. One poster said that when they visited this place a caretaker told her that the adult female sulcatas are not available for adoption because they are the money makers.


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## Jacqui

Neal thank you for that side of things. I never thought about the situation happening in AZ like your talking about with it working against the DT. I recall pictures of that "rescue" and have often wondered how they had ever deemed themselves a rescue. Looked worse then some so called hoarders I have saw TV shows of.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

Jacqui said:


> Neal thank you for that side of things. I never thought about the situation happening in AZ like your talking about with it working against the DT. I recall pictures of that "rescue" and have often wondered how they had ever deemed themselves a rescue. Looked worse then some so called hoarders I have saw TV shows of.



Yes, agree, interesting insight. Thank you for sharing Neal. Sigh.


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## Tom

I found Neal's post interesting. Never thought off this in that way. So the premise, when extrapolated out, is that all these sulcatas are being cared for by people who could be giving homes to DTs that have been illegally removed from the desert instead. If there weren't so many sulcata babies being produced, these people would instead line up to adopt all these DTs?

I don't think so. People want a sulcata because of what they are. Big, bold, beautiful, majestic... Don't get me wrong. DTs are great tortoises and I love the species. I could have as many as I want, but I have chosen other species for a variety of reasons.

Why are we only blaming sulcatas for lack of DT homes. What about all the Russians bought at Petco and Petsmart? How come those people didn't go out and adopt a DT instead? Basically ANY pet tortoise of ANY species could be taking up a potential DT home.

So should we stop ALL captive tortoise breeding until all the DTs have homes? Am I off base here? Does anyone else see it this way?


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## mike taylor

I think the people in that one rescue facility has found a way to sell sulcatas. But on the other hand say they are saving the poor dessert tortoises. I don't think he meant as you took it Tom . I am with you these people get people into the rescue for the dts . But use the ole slide of hand and show them there first sulcata then they just have to get one . It's a great trick at the cost of another tortoise .


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## Jacqui

mike taylor said:


> I think the people in that one rescue facility has found a way to sell sulcatas. But on the other hand say they are saving the poor dessert tortoises. I don't think he meant as you took it Tom . I am with you these people get people into the rescue for the dts . But use the ole slide of hand and show them there first sulcata then they just have to get one . It's a great trick at the cost of another tortoise .



I agree, I too do not see it the way you, Tom, are taking it. Neal was giving just ONE example and he was not saying it is true every where or other tortoises don't weigh in too. It's just atleast in this one case, when folks come to get a DT, instead they are shown no doubt what is an adorable recently hatched sulcata. It's going to be a rare person that would take a hatchling anything, let alone a sulcata over any older tortoise. 

Yes, no doubt the Russians sold at the petstores do take some homes away from DTs. Of course, a lot of Russians are kept in tiny, cramped indoor enclosures where a sulcata can not live for long, while the DT and the sulcata both are in the running for yard usage.

With any problem or even just what is believed to be a problem, there are always more then one reason why it's happening. If you take enough little seemingly unrelated and unimportant little things, it can start tipping the scale.


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## wellington

Ditto, that's not the way I see it either Tom.


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

Back to being mad at government waste: The problem with finding homes for desert tortoises is that the education and outreach is simply not there. The groups in California are volunteer run, and sadly, the state government people have hogged all the money for themselves, for their salaries and pensions, and have put the needs of the animals way back in the back. If some of the multiple millions that are doled out for the "protected desert tortoise" were actually shared with the people who do protect them, the CTTC groups for instance, the desert tortoises would always have educated families and homes. 

Another case in point, the amount of money that the one solar company was forced to pay to "protect the desert tortoise" and it went where and did what for desert tortoises. Or the 159 million to 5 agencies in Nevada and when cash could no longer be made, the Nevada gopherus as reported by the Associated Press, are now disposable, and scheduled to die. And the new "only the sick ones" was back peddling from the uproar.

In California, it seems that not one penny of gazillions in decades has ever made it to the people in the trenches, the CTTC chapters who are actually helping the "protected" gopherus. Instead the money (again, multiple millions) funds folks like say, the US Army, and they, without due diligence or common sense, move the desert tortoises to their eventual deaths. I still cringe about that one. 

So sulcata or desert tortoise, education and outreach. Knowledge matters. And enthusiasm generates enthusiasm. If we are excited about being tortoise keepers and hosts, and are willing to help those new to the game, those people will succeed and in turn have our enthusiasm for others ... and it keeps going ... all tortoises win.


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## wellington

Pretty much agree with most of what you said. Until you mentioned the US Army. The military men and women, in all branches of the military, that serve this country to protect you deserve way more then they get or will ever get!


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## erica anne

Tom said:


> This is propaganda from a rescue organization. There are a few individuals and rescues that like to shout out how the sky is falling and there is a horrible sulcata overpopulation problem. They have a lot of sulcatas at some of these rescues because:
> a. They usually charge a very high "adoption fee" of several hundred dollars.
> b. They have to come to your house and decide if you and your yard are fit to adopt one of their tortoises.
> c. You have to sign a ridiculous contract with all sorts of provisions like "they can repossess the tortoise at any time for any reason", or " the tortoise can only be given back to them and never to a friend or family member", and "you can NEVER" breed the tortoise.
> 
> By contrast, if a sulcata somehow ends up at a local shelter here it is adopted within minutes of becoming available. Of course the adoption fee is small, and there is no contract, and no one has to inspect your home, and no one tells you what you can or can't do with your own tortoise. I know of a rescue that does NOT do a, b, or c above and they adopt out their incoming sulcatas within hours or days. I personally have helped about 2 dozen large sulcatas find new homes over the years and never had any problem doing so, because I did not make people pay money, submit to inspection, or agree to absurd terms.
> 
> 
> Agressive? Sure they are. Big males will try to kill each other. I have heard of a person tripping on one, or getting an ankle rammed, but that is not common. They will also bite a finger if you leave out there a little too long while hand feeding.
> 
> 50-100 eggs per year? Yep. That's about right. Per female. There is a big demand for them and they are a great species. Like any other species they have needs that are specific to them. They grow large, eat a lot, dig big holes, and will generally wreck a back yard. Those are some negative attributes to be sure. Here are some positives: They grow big, they eat a lot, they dig cool burrows, they are super friendly and outgoing most of the time, they are beautiful majestic looking animals (depending on the eye of the beholder), and they make lots of babies to sell to help pay for all their expenses, and let other people get the same enjoyment that you get from them by raising and caring for their OWN sulcata, as you are doing now. I, for one, think it is fantastic that another sulcata will NEVER have to be taken from the wild to meet the demands of the pet trade.
> 
> This is a hot topic. Opinions and emotions run high on both sides of this argument.




Before I bought my Sulcata I tried adopting a desert tortoise. I still would love one. First, I left several messages with the Phoenix herpetological society that were never returned. Then I went to the website to find other ways to contact them. The A, B and C that you listed are the exact reasons why I finally gave up and Adopted a sulcata. I understand that they want to find good permanent homes for the tortoises but they make it such a hassle that people just don't want to deal with it.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

I only wish they would find another way
Other then exotic pets because as long as they are called exotic there will be 
Problems when a tiger or bear eats someone 
And yes Jacqui it's wrong to bread DTs 
But if you do you have 2yrs to move them you can trade them or sell them 
But if it's illegal to breed DTs why do we have 2 yrs to move them?


Sorry you cannt sell or trade DTs


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

wellington said:


> Pretty much agree with most of what you said. Until you mentioned the US Army. The military men and women, in all branches of the military, that serve this country to protect you deserve way more then they get or will ever get!



Absolutely. I super agree. But who in their command, and as you know, this came from the very top, messed up so badly. It is never the men who serve but rather the very top in command who did not do their job with this relocation. Bad call and it cost us taxpayers aplenty and it cost those tortoises their lives. We pay big money for appropriate due diligence. Not knocking the US Army but not happy about this project not being handled as it should have been. Big difference.




erica anne said:


> Before I bought my Sulcata I tried adopting a desert tortoise. I still would love one. First, I left several messages with the Phoenix herpetological society that were never returned. Then I went to the website to find other ways to contact them. The A, B and C that you listed are the exact reasons why I finally gave up and Adopted a sulcata. I understand that they want to find good permanent homes for the tortoises but they make it such a hassle that people just don't want to deal with it.



Exactly. I had a hell of a time getting a CDT and the excuse was we are limited, we are volunteers, we cannot find your application, yada yada. Understandable. Not paid, not able. Until I heard that 3 had died while being fostered. I could have saved one. I had the resources and means. I could not believe hearing that. So I moved on and I got leopards, like you with the sulcata.


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## reatrocity

I'm someone who would never feel comfortable breeding any animal. However, I live and let live. As long as people are breeding responsibly, making sure they don't sell to people without clearly educating them of what it means to own a sulcata (or any animal for that matter), and are able to take back a tortoise if the owner can no longer care for it, then fine... Obviously if an animal, or a bunch of animals are being abused, I don't believe in just not doing anything about it.

Sulcatas are gorgeous, I love them. I know I'll never sit still long enough in one place to give them a proper home so I'll never buy one. I just wished people would consider what it means to truly own such a creature. Breaks my heart... but it motivates me to be the best pet owner I could be to both my tort and my dog. Aside from that, there is not much else I can do about it.


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## [email protected]

Awe. I laughed through this whole thread. While discounting fables they make up new ones.

With an informed and educated owner, sulcata can be wonderful companion pets.

The key is "informed" and "educated".

Once a potential owner educates themselves about these large tortoises they can make an informed decision. I took two years to learn and observe sulcata tortoises. Sill there are challenges.

Frankie does not have teeth. He rams but has never rammed me - I understand the behavior so can avoid doing dumb things around him. I will never allow him to reproduce. I educate everyone I can about the truth of sulcata. I tell people to adopt. I know how long Frankie can live so I have already created a "Pet Proximity" and set up for his adoption for after my death. 

People who choose to breed sulcata are uninformed or just interested in making money which means they are still uninformed, the rest are in it for money regardless of animal wellbeing. 

Sulcata are vegetarians (more hay and grass). They don't like the taste of human flesh. If they bite it's because the finger was in the wrong place. 

But since I don't want anyone to buy another sulcata I will tell you that sulcata are vicious flesh eating turtles that will run you down until you die.


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## Tom

[email protected] said:


> People who choose to breed sulcata are uninformed or just interested in making money which means they are still uninformed, the rest are in it for money regardless of animal wellbeing.




This is not correct and you do not know all the people breeding sulcatas. If I'm in it for the money, why do I give so many away for free? Are you really going to call ME uninformed? What is it you think I'm uninformed about? Their size, diet, housing needs, hatchling care, their numbers in the world?

I'd like to give you the chance to retract that absurd statement.


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## JennBell0725

Wow that was really an ignorant statement especially because breeders and keepers like Tom help untold amounts of sulcatas and other tortoises everyday with the husbandry techniques he has perfected. He has helped me so much with my set up for my male. 
I always so much enjoy Frankies tales but it is sad to know this is what you believe. I wonder how many people have been completey turned off from adopting bc of you.


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## [email protected]

Tom, and me, and others are part of the INFORMED sulcata owners. And a few of those INFORMED who do breed, as in the case of Tom, not for the money but for the love of the tortoise and with care. I apologize not to clearly include these people in my scenario.

My job has always been to tell the truth (sometimes in an often odd and funny way) about the nature of sulcata. 

It's just sad that the INFORMED are in the minority. In my experience, the INFORMED always try to share good information because they CARE. I forgot that here on this forum, the INFORMED roam freely.


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## Danimal

Hi, new guy here. I get what you are saying about the informed and uninformed, but what in this world isn't exactly like that? There are different levels of inclination to everything. Some personalities throw 110% into everything they do, others may engage at that level only with certain interests. Some know enough to get by and seem to be able to make almost anything work while their counter part knows enough to be dangerous and seems to screw everything up. There are too many to list. It is the human condition. In my chosen field I had to learn to accept, begrudgingly and with great frustration, that some people would never learn to be an (informed) enough user to protect themselves online or keep their computer running properly etc.. I do know how you feel but I would caution you not to let it callous you too much. Who will be the the teacher?


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## AZtortMom

erica anne said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is propaganda from a rescue organization. There are a few individuals and rescues that like to shout out how the sky is falling and there is a horrible sulcata overpopulation problem. They have a lot of sulcatas at some of these rescues because:
> a. They usually charge a very high "adoption fee" of several hundred dollars.
> b. They have to come to your house and decide if you and your yard are fit to adopt one of their tortoises.
> c. You have to sign a ridiculous contract with all sorts of provisions like "they can repossess the tortoise at any time for any reason", or " the tortoise can only be given back to them and never to a friend or family member", and "you can NEVER" breed the tortoise.
> 
> By contrast, if a sulcata somehow ends up at a local shelter here it is adopted within minutes of becoming available. Of course the adoption fee is small, and there is no contract, and no one has to inspect your home, and no one tells you what you can or can't do with your own tortoise. I know of a rescue that does NOT do a, b, or c above and they adopt out their incoming sulcatas within hours or days. I personally have helped about 2 dozen large sulcatas find new homes over the years and never had any problem doing so, because I did not make people pay money, submit to inspection, or agree to absurd terms.
> 
> 
> Agressive? Sure they are. Big males will try to kill each other. I have heard of a person tripping on one, or getting an ankle rammed, but that is not common. They will also bite a finger if you leave out there a little too long while hand feeding.
> 
> 50-100 eggs per year? Yep. That's about right. Per female. There is a big demand for them and they are a great species. Like any other species they have needs that are specific to them. They grow large, eat a lot, dig big holes, and will generally wreck a back yard. Those are some negative attributes to be sure. Here are some positives: They grow big, they eat a lot, they dig cool burrows, they are super friendly and outgoing most of the time, they are beautiful majestic looking animals (depending on the eye of the beholder), and they make lots of babies to sell to help pay for all their expenses, and let other people get the same enjoyment that you get from them by raising and caring for their OWN sulcata, as you are doing now. I, for one, think it is fantastic that another sulcata will NEVER have to be taken from the wild to meet the demands of the pet trade.
> 
> This is a hot topic. Opinions and emotions run high on both sides of this argument.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Before I bought my Sulcata I tried adopting a desert tortoise. I still would love one. First, I left several messages with the Phoenix herpetological society that were never returned. Then I went to the website to find other ways to contact them. The A, B and C that you listed are the exact reasons why I finally gave up and Adopted a sulcata. I understand that they want to find good permanent homes for the tortoises but they make it such a hassle that people just don't want to deal with it.
Click to expand...


This is what happened to me, and this is why I have sulcates as well


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## Arnold_rules

Tom said:


> As a point of reference, many of my neighbors, friends and family have sulcatas, and none of them are breeding.



Your neighbors, friends and family are not breeding, or their tortoises? 




Neal said:


> Why is that the problem fo us Arizonan's? Well, the way I understand it, a certain herptile sanctuary here facilitates the desert tortoise adoption process for the state. They house the animals and I do believe they handle the actual adoptions. This particular sanctuary houses several hundred adult sulcatas and intentionally breeds and sells the hatchlings all over the country. So when someone interested in adopting a desert tortoises goes to the facility to view or to pick up the tortoise, the caretakers will encourage them to take home a sulcata which are much cooler than a desert tortoise. "Why do you want a little old desert tortoise when you can have one of these cute little friendly giants?" This results in overcrowded pens of desert tortoises, of which I have seen first hand, and subjects them to an increased risk of sharing severe diseases. The vet I frequently use has shared his experiences of when he used to volunteer for this facility. He no longer does. I won't share what he has specifically told me as I don't want to misquote him, but his experiences make a very compelling case that the desert tortoises are in an extremely challenging predicament as a direct result of so many sulcatas being produced.



I know this facility, unfortunately, and your vet is pretty great (use him too). I made the mistake of taking my cub scouts to the facility, they never showed us any of the DT's and their sulcata pen was way over stocked. The facility owners did seem a little upset by me asking some questions about their husbandry of the tortoises in their care.


----------



## sibi

LeAnn, while you've backed off from your original comment, I still think you don't always tell it like it is because you have left out people who are informed, like yourself. You fixed that in your second post; however, when you stated that you laughed at the whole thread, who's comments were you laughing at? What's so funny about DT and their plight? And why would you discourage buying a sully knowing that people who are on this forum are primarily here to be informed? If you want to encourage adoptions, that's a good thing, but to brand all breeders as only interested in money is not true! Yes, many are in it for money, but not all.


----------



## tortoiselady

Hello,
Never a dull moment on TF  I want to make a comment and ask a few questions, but mostly I want to keep receiving notices about this thread as I am very interested. 

My comment - early in this thread someone mentioned expensive adoption fees, yard inspections, must return it if you don't keep it yourself, can take it back at anytime if it is decided you are doing wrong with it, can't breed, and must sign a crazy contract...Something along those lines - no quote here. To me this does sound extreme. A large adoption fee, can take back at anytime if it is decided you are doing wrong with it specifically I think is overboard. But I do find some of the rest of it may hold water for me - as we are doing opinions here.

If a rescue is entrusted with an animal to find it a new good loving home and they do not check the new habitat is that really doing the job they were entrusted with? If you are a good home what are you hiding one must ask? If you had to give up your tortoise/animal would you not care if the new home was looked into or just anyone can have your beloved pet that asks for it? These are not easy shoes to fill - have you walked in them?

Next, breeding obviously goes against a rescue as that is only adding work to their load. Why hold it against a rescue for trying to keep their work load reasonable? They are after all getting these animals turned into them so they do exist. 

Food for though - crazy contracts with the description I read I would have to agree. But what is wrong with a contract that is mostly to inform of what you are doing and allows the rescue recognition for their work with the authorities. Rescues can be audited by the authorities too and if they don't dot their i's and cross their t's they could lose the the right and capability to do a much needed job.

I am a rescue worker so breeding isn't for me. With that said, I do see the importance of quality breeders who share extremely important information with the pet public. I happen to think Tom (southern CA Dog Trainer) is an excellent example. There is respect for the species, accountability for what he breeds, and certainly he takes responsibility. The information he shares is invaluable. On the other hand there are plenty who are not any of those things and that is where I would disagree with breeding. So, I vote for more education as I am not a fan of the government 

Answer away, but please let's play nice after all everyone here is a tortoise lover so we are connected


----------



## sibi

While your statements sound reasonable, it really won't change things needing change. As Tom brought out, things will never be perfect because of human nature. As a rescue worker yourself, you know the challenges of trying to educate and inform people. There will always be those who will breed recklessly for a buck, not caring who get the hatchling, and not caring if it's raised badly. Can you stop those people from breeding? You know you can't. So why would people try to scare people into believing that sulcatas are taking homes away from the DT? Why would some make the sulcata a scapegoat? Why give the government more reasons to step in and infringe on the rights of all people to stop buying, selling, or breeding sullies? Like Tom mentioned, why give our enemies more ammunition to go after tortoise lovers?



tortoiselady said:


> Hello,
> Never a dull moment on TF  I want to make a comment and ask a few questions, but mostly I want to keep receiving notices about this thread as I am very interested.
> 
> My comment - early in this thread someone mentioned expensive adoption fees, yard inspections, must return it if you don't keep it yourself, can take it back at anytime if it is decided you are doing wrong with it, can't breed, and must sign a crazy contract...Something along those lines - no quote here. To me this does sound extreme. A large adoption fee, can take back at anytime if it is decided you are doing wrong with it specifically I think is overboard. But I do find some of the rest of it may hold water for me - as we are doing opinions here.
> 
> If a rescue is entrusted with an animal to find it a new good loving home and they do not check the new habitat is that really doing the job they were entrusted with? If you are a good home what are you hiding one must ask? If you had to give up your tortoise/animal would you not care if the new home was looked into or just anyone can have your beloved pet that asks for it? These are not easy shoes to fill - have you walked in them?
> 
> Next, breeding obviously goes against a rescue as that is only adding work to their load. Why hold it against a rescue for trying to keep their work load reasonable? They are after all getting these animals turned into them so they do exist.
> 
> Food for though - crazy contracts with the description I read I would have to agree. But what is wrong with a contract that is mostly to inform of what you are doing and allows the rescue recognition for their work with the authorities. Rescues can be audited by the authorities too and if they don't dot their i's and cross their t's they could lose the the right and capability to do a much needed job.
> 
> I am a rescue worker so breeding isn't for me. With that said, I do see the importance of quality breeders who share extremely important information with the pet public. I happen to think Tom (southern CA Dog Trainer) is an excellent example. There is respect for the species, accountability for what he breeds, and certainly he takes responsibility. The information he shares is invaluable. On the other hand there are plenty who are not any of those things and that is where I would disagree with breeding. So, I vote for more education as I am not a fan of the government
> 
> Answer away, but please let's play nice after all everyone here is a tortoise lover so we are connected


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

Jacqui said:


> I agree with many of your points, except one.... sulcatas as lawn mowers.  Mine do not seem to be up to the job and do rather lopsided at best "mowing".  I wonder is there a school to train sulcatas how do a good job of mowing?



Too funny. 
Okay, I stand corrected. So they do not go straight up and down and then across and all pretty and perfect. That is so last century lawn care anyways. No longer stylish.
The fashion forward person thinks sulcata. Why sulcata is the new green. Sulcatas are carbon neutral, free non-toxic weed eater/killers and they give back (literally) with wonderful compost amendments and/or organic fertilizer. Yeah, baby.
I ask you, what is not to love? Everyone who does not have other tortoises in their yard, should have one. And if you partake in more acreage, have another, or two. That is why God created barrier materials. And clumping grasses. And boulders for sight barriers. Use them.
The 2010 census tells me there are an estimated 114,825,428 households in the USA, give or take a few million I am sure.

Let's get busy educating all y'all, because the potential for happy, informed host homes for everyone is certainly there. All hail the tortoise, all tortoises! : )


----------



## Tom

[email protected] said:


> Tom, and me, and others are part of the INFORMED sulcata owners. And a few of those INFORMED who do breed, as in the case of Tom, not for the money but for the love of the tortoise and with care. I apologize not to clearly include these people in my scenario.
> 
> My job has always been to tell the truth (sometimes in an often odd and funny way) about the nature of sulcata.
> 
> It's just sad that the INFORMED are in the minority. In my experience, the INFORMED always try to share good information because they CARE. I forgot that here on this forum, the INFORMED roam freely.



I appreciate and accept your apology. Thank you.


Still, I think the picture you paint is much more bleak than reality. I know at least a dozen people who breed sulcatas and not a one of them matches your description. All of them care very deeply about their animals and love them with the same passion as you or I. Now I am sure that there are some people out there who might match your description, but I think the ratio of bad ones to good ones is significantly better than you think. It would be just too much coincidence if every single breeder I know just happens to be one of the good guys and I have never met a single bad one.

Totally cool if people don't want to breed, or if they think we have enough sulcatas, but I just don't see the vast majority of people breeding these amazing animals as villains. If you do, that's okay. I just don't share your opinion.


----------



## tortoiselady

Thank you for reading and responding to my post, but I was not commenting on the scapegoat tactics - until now. I agree it is pathetic and the two really should be separate issues in my opinion.

I was really looking to defend the rescues that work very hard at what they do and acknowledge that not all rescues are created equal, like not all breeders are created equal. Someone posted a rather bleak comment about ALL breeders and I felt the same happened to rescues in this discussion. That was my real goal with my post.

As for the education part, I would much rather be part of the solution than the problem. I too do not care for the big government as stated before, but I am actively trying to educate to be part of the solution. The only way I can educate is to continue to learn and that is in part thanks to the quality responsible researchers that do breed.




sibi said:


> While your statements sound reasonable, it really won't change things needing change. As Tom brought out, things will never be perfect because of human nature. As a rescue worker yourself, you know the challenges of trying to educate and inform people. There will always be those who will breed recklessly for a buck, not caring who get the hatchling, and not caring if it's raised badly. Can you stop those people from breeding? You know you can't. So why would people try to scare people into believing that sulcatas are taking homes away from the DT? Why would some make the sulcata a scapegoat? Why give the government more reasons to step in and infringe on the rights of all people to stop buying, selling, or breeding sullies? Like Tom mentioned, why give our enemies more ammunition to go after tortoise lovers?
> 
> 
> 
> tortoiselady said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello,
> Never a dull moment on TF  I want to make a comment and ask a few questions, but mostly I want to keep receiving notices about this thread as I am very interested.
> 
> My comment - early in this thread someone mentioned expensive adoption fees, yard inspections, must return it if you don't keep it yourself, can take it back at anytime if it is decided you are doing wrong with it, can't breed, and must sign a crazy contract...Something along those lines - no quote here. To me this does sound extreme. A large adoption fee, can take back at anytime if it is decided you are doing wrong with it specifically I think is overboard. But I do find some of the rest of it may hold water for me - as we are doing opinions here.
> 
> If a rescue is entrusted with an animal to find it a new good loving home and they do not check the new habitat is that really doing the job they were entrusted with? If you are a good home what are you hiding one must ask? If you had to give up your tortoise/animal would you not care if the new home was looked into or just anyone can have your beloved pet that asks for it? These are not easy shoes to fill - have you walked in them?
> 
> Next, breeding obviously goes against a rescue as that is only adding work to their load. Why hold it against a rescue for trying to keep their work load reasonable? They are after all getting these animals turned into them so they do exist.
> 
> Food for though - crazy contracts with the description I read I would have to agree. But what is wrong with a contract that is mostly to inform of what you are doing and allows the rescue recognition for their work with the authorities. Rescues can be audited by the authorities too and if they don't dot their i's and cross their t's they could lose the the right and capability to do a much needed job.
> 
> I am a rescue worker so breeding isn't for me. With that said, I do see the importance of quality breeders who share extremely important information with the pet public. I happen to think Tom (southern CA Dog Trainer) is an excellent example. There is respect for the species, accountability for what he breeds, and certainly he takes responsibility. The information he shares is invaluable. On the other hand there are plenty who are not any of those things and that is where I would disagree with breeding. So, I vote for more education as I am not a fan of the government
> 
> Answer away, but please let's play nice after all everyone here is a tortoise lover so we are connected
Click to expand...


----------



## turtlesteve

BeeBee*BeeLeaves said:


> Okay, I stand corrected. So they do not go straight up and down and then across and all pretty and perfect. That is so last century lawn care anyways. No longer stylish.
> The fashion forward person thinks sulcata. Why sulcata is the new green. Sulcatas are carbon neutral, free non-toxic weed eater/killers and they give back (literally) with wonderful compost amendments and/or organic fertilizer. Yeah, baby.



Thanks, I got a good chuckle out of this. We just need to convince average people that giant tunnels, raceways, and dirt piles brighten up the lawn. If I buy a house, I intend to specifically avoid properties covered by homeowner's associations, just in case my neighbors don't agree 

Sibi, Tortoiselady,
As to rescues vs. breeders, I fail to see the conflict - are there any examples of reptile rescues publicly calling for breeding regulations? Have I just not heard of this before? Even if I disagree with most rescues' adoption policies, they have the right to do with their animals as they see fit, as long as they don't (forcibly) impose their standards on others.


----------



## Tom

tortoiselady said:


> If a rescue is entrusted with an animal to find it a new good loving home and they do not check the new habitat is that really doing the job they were entrusted with? If you are a good home what are you hiding one must ask? If you had to give up your tortoise/animal would you not care if the new home was looked into or just anyone can have your beloved pet that asks for it? These are not easy shoes to fill - have you walked in them?



I am all for playing nice, and I am glad we are all having this discussion. Its great that we can all be friends at the end of the day and still share our differing points of view.

I get your point about not all rescues being the same. I believe I mentioned the rescues that don't ask for all of this crazy stuff in my post that your were paraphrasing (not quoting). My point was not to say that rescues are bad, or that they are all the same. My point was to explain why some rescues have a whole bunch of sulcatas sitting around and other people have no problem placing as many as they come across. The more hoops to jump through and the more fees to pay, the more people will look for an easier/cheaper way to get a tortoise. Thats all. Rescues with less stringent requirements, or even local animal shelters, have no problem placing sulcatas into homes. Its okay if a rescue wants to make up contracts, do yard inspections and charge adoption fees. I have no problem with that. But I think most people would prefer to get a tortoise from a place that did not make them go through all that. Its pretty obvious that I'm right about this because rescues with high standards who create a bunch of hoops to jump through have a lot of sulcatas sitting around, and rescues that don't, don't. I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do. I'm not telling any rescue how to do business. I'm just pointing out what should be an obvious fact.

You also mentioned that you are a rescuer and not a breeder. And that breeding would make more work for you. I don't get this. Why can't a person do both? Breeding and selling healthy hatchlings to responsible people who will take good care of them has nothing to do with irresponsible people obtaining a pet and then dumping it on you when they get tired of it. This is two different groups of people doing two different things. And yes, I HAVE walked in those shoes. I have done a lot of rehabbing and rescuing over the years. When I place a tortoise, I don't do a yard inspection, collect a fee, or make them sign a contract. If I don't think they will do the right thing, I won't give or sell someone a tortoise. I have refused sales LOTS of times. Anyhow, I don't understand your either/or point of view on this one. I know lots of people who do both, and its not a conflict in my opinion.


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

turtlesteve said:


> Thanks, I got a good chuckle out of this. We just need to convince average people that giant tunnels, raceways, and dirt piles brighten up the lawn. If I buy a house, I intend to specifically avoid properties covered by homeowner's associations, just in case my neighbors don't agree



turtlesteve, you know what would be so totally great? If we x-nay the lawn-ay as a society, period. They are money pits for one. In my area, part of the southwest of our great country, for instance, we are always hearing yada-yada save water. How cool would it be to forget about most of the grass, leave it in the front if you must, but create a habitat for a tortoise. No more mowing, no more 4 bucks a gallon gas, no more fumes, no more have to mow this weekend. Instead a lovely creature that once accommodated , can lower blood pressure and also do what I noted above. Educating people to look at it that way, would be great for our environment. Recent studies show/prove that a garden (native, drought tolerant, edible) is more cost efficient than a lawn and better for our environment and for birds and butterflies. These studies were shared by our Metro Water District. Woo hoo. 

And once again, we simply must share with others in order to help and to educate ... which is why TFO is so wonderful. Ghandi said we are accountable for what we do and for what we do not do. Share.

Every tortoise should come with a little note that says, please join (or troll, like I did for a year LOL) TFO for the sake of your new pet.

And yeah, I agree about the HOA thing as some can be kinda Stepford Wife-ish. (eyes wide open).


----------



## sibi

Yes there have been rescues of RES because of overproduction of this breed. It had caused a huge health problem in some states. As a result, the government had to step in and restrict breeding and set restrictions. So, while rescuers do a great service to animals that are no longer wanted, they also tend to not encourage breeding. It's like polar opposites. It doesn't have to be like that, though. If rescuers educated people who wish to adopt animals, and accept that there are responsible breeders out there, then they wouldn't discourage breeding.


> I fail to see the conflict - are there any examples of reptile rescues publicly calling for breeding regulations? Have I just not heard of this before? Even if I disagree with most rescues' adoption policies, they have the right to do with their animals as they see fit, as long as they don't (forcibly) impose their standards on others.


----------



## Tom

BeeBee*BeeLeaves said:


> turtlesteve, you know what would be so totally great? If we x-nay the lawn-ay as a society, period. They are money pits for one. In my area, part of the southwest of our great country, for instance, we are always hearing yada-yada save water. How cool would it be to forget about most of the grass, leave it in the front if you must, but create a habitat for a tortoise. No more mowing, no more 4 bucks a gallon gas, no more fumes, no more have to mow this weekend.



But, but, but... my lawn is my tortoise food growing pasture. Where am I gonna get a five gallon buckets worth of food everyday without my lawn? 

Can I get a special pass on this one?


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

Tom said:


> But, but, but... my lawn is my tortoise food growing pasture. Where am I gonna get a five gallon buckets worth of food everyday without my lawn?
> Can I get a special pass on this one?



I am such a knucklehead. Of course, hello? duh? Sulcatas love-love-love and need grass. I guess what I was seeing in my head and meant was that whole perfectly manicured lawn, all lawn everywhere that is so suburbia. The kind that was/is part of many homes in a Tim Burton Edward Scissorhands opening scene type of way. I remember hearing that called "synchronized suburbia" LOL.

You said it perfectly Tom, we need pasture gardens not lawny lawns. Thank you for noticing that right away. How can we say it? We need more tortoise friendly grass pasture gardens? Yeah, that's it. Grass pasture gardens. More of them, please. Tortoise happy. Me and you happy. : )


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## wellington

I like the lawn idea. It works for me. So much less work. Let the weeds grow. If all the other people, you know those weird ones that don't have a tortoise in their back yard. If they only could see how beautiful a yard is with a tortoise grazing in it


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## sibi

You're so funny BeeBee. Love all your remarks. You seem to be such an uppity positive person!


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

Barb, tortoise people (rescues, local groups) should lobby water districts to partner and to encourage and support and heck as public benefit promote grass pasture gardens, all wild and weedy, and fun, and then have pictures to inspire people like they do with native gardens and drought tolerant and prairie garden models. Less water, more possible tortoise homes. If the mind set can be changed and people can visualize and actually see a garden that looks natural, is very low maintenance and is perfect for a sulcata, or any tortoise really. Boom. Solution. No tortoise left behind. : )




sibi said:


> You're so funny BeeBee. Love all your remarks. You seem to be such an uppity positive person!



Thanks sibi. I am a happy tortoise geek. You can tell I love me the torties. I want more people to love them, too. And take care of them proper. : )


----------



## sibi

Lol BeeBee. Yeah! I can go for that! We can get those pix to the HOA people, and show them how to do it right. I can even bring my three sullies to help demonstrate it for them


----------



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

Yeah, HOA meeting with sibi's three sullies. Talk about eyes WIDE open. And gasps. The visual. Too funny. 
But, talk about cost effectiveness and greater good for the environment, and therapy, and some, might take the pitch. Baby tortoise steps.


----------



## Jacqui

BeeBee*BeeLeaves said:


> Less water, more possible tortoise homes. If the mind set can be changed and people can visualize and actually see a garden that looks natural, is very low maintenance and is perfect for a sulcata, or any tortoise really. Boom. Solution. No tortoise left behind. : )



I don't know about any of the rest of you, but using less water does not hold true with my place. The areas not being used for either natural grazing or to be harvested for them by me instead are not watered at all by me. I water for maximum production of plant (grass, blooms, ect) and also use water for tortoise streams/pools/mudwallows/ect. Any "lawn" areas are never watered, heck why do I want those areas to grow faster?? So almost 100% of outside water usage goes to the tortoise area. If you put in time spent harvesting, maintaining, seeding, planting, ect of those living food items for me it's much more then the time I spend mowing (and I mow for my neighbor too). For the record, I use a pushmower. Now you talked of cost, it costs less to mow in the summer months, then to heat and light the sulcatas over winter. Plus, in the sulcata enclosures there are always some plants that they choose to not eat or not eat after they get so high, that I still have to either mow or hand cut out. They do a better job then my other tortoises, but still they don't get everything even.

Not trying to be a negative person or to down your ideas any, but I also had to let you know this may work better (atleast on paper) in some areas more then others. I am also proud to live in a village where other then the church, I don't think anybody waters their lawns nor applies chemicals to them.


----------



## sibi

I can't get over the greenery on the NW of Oregon. One member's 5 acres look like it's still summer. I'm sure he doesn't water all that! I guess it really does depend where one lives.


----------



## Yvonne G

Somewhere up above a statement was made that all the baby sulcatas being raised are sold, no problem.

That's correct. The BABIES are very easy to find homes for, and those people are quite willing to actually PAY money for those babies.

I have a statement that I usually make when people come here to adopt a tortoise, "The pet stores sell these cute little baby sulcatas, then I get them 5 or 10 years later for free."

I'm pretty small potatoes, taking in only about 100 turtles and tortoises per year, but the majority of those that I take in are male sulcatas at around the 35 to 50lb range.


----------



## Tom

Yvonne G said:


> I'm pretty small potatoes, taking in only about 100 turtles and tortoises per year, but the majority of those that I take in are male sulcatas at around the 35 to 50lb range.



The majority of the 100 animals a year you take in are subadult male sulcatas? You are very good at finding homes for them then. I have only seen one or two when I've been there.


----------



## Yvonne G

I try to place every tortoise as quickly as possible to tone down the stress of being moved to a new home. I don't have people falling all over themselves to adopt sulcatas, and sometimes have to resort to running an ad in the paper to find a home. It's much harder for me to place a sulcata than it would be for me to sell a baby. Yes, I find homes for them, but I have to work pretty hard to do so.


----------



## Sulcata_Sandy

ALDABRAMAN said:


> mike taylor said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Thats why we live in the USA we have the freedom to do what we please *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ** Amen!
> 
> * This was our last drop off, a very active male that destroyed the pen i put him in, lol!*
Click to expand...


This is the funniest thing I've read to date on this forum!!!
Ok, so the person who breeds the biggest, heaviest tortoises can't house an itty bitty (relative to Aldabra) Sulcata???? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Ok, picking an yah. It just painted a very funny image in my head.
But actually, it's a good example of house destructive they can be. 

My 50 lb house Sulcata is very gentle and other than a few dings in a shelf unit, he roams around, lounges under his PowerSun, and is a joy to live with. But he is just not an active, aggressive Sulcata. They are all individuals and all have their own personalities. My hatchling from Tom bulldozes his house to pieces...he potentially will be a yard wrecker! LOL

I can't agree more with the overpriced rescues. Charge $50, send with a care sheet, done. Next!!
Charge $400 and interrogate and force to sign overly demanding contracts? Have fun with that


----------



## Tom

Sulcata_Sandy said:


> I can't agree more with the overpriced rescues. Charge $50, send with a care sheet, done. Next!!
> Charge $400 and interrogate and force to sign overly demanding contracts? Have fun with that




Yeah. Have fun with that and then get on the internet and tell everyone about the "sulcata overpopulation problem" and how your rescue is overflowing with sulcatas that you can't find homes for.

There is no shortage of homes for sulctas. There is, however, a shortage of people willing to pay money and jump through hoops when they can go get a free one with no hassles instead.

Again. I am not saying any rescue is "wrong" for their policies. I have no problem with them being careful about the animals that they have been given. I just want to shed some light on the subject for interested readers so people can hear both sides of the story and make up their own minds.


----------



## tortoiselady

Tom said:


> Sulcata_Sandy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't agree more with the overpriced rescues. Charge $50, send with a care sheet, done. Next!!
> Charge $400 and interrogate and force to sign overly demanding contracts? Have fun with that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah. Have fun with that and then get on the internet and tell everyone about the "sulcata overpopulation problem" and how your rescue is overflowing with sulcatas that you can't find homes for.
> 
> There is no shortage of homes for sulctas. There is, however, a shortage of people willing to pay money and jump through hoops when they can go get a free one with no hassles instead.
> 
> Again. I am not saying any rescue is "wrong" for their policies. I have no problem with them being careful about the animals that they have been given. I just want to shed some light on the subject for interested readers so people can hear both sides of the story and make up their own minds.
Click to expand...

 Thank you for the added disclosure as all rescues are not created equal. The rescue I work with has a zero adoption fee, period. We operate 100% on donations that are not required at all, or even suggested amounts. That is why I get the big bucks for often spending 40 hours a week at it - $0.00. Not even the gas I use to drive them. The home is the most important goal and to not have them turned back in. But like Yvonne noted - it is getting harder to find homes for the larger males. Yes, I too could sell babies no problem. We are up to turned in sulcatas in the 160 to 200 pounds now. The 50 to 80 pound males are the most common being turned in, in the "Valley" area of Southern California. Can't speak for other areas. 

A thought on the population subject - there may be more geographical issues going on with sulcatas which may be blowing this population issue out of proportion. Certain areas my be experiencing a very high population while others seem to have very low population. Something to consider when hearing complaints of over population, and yet you don't see it where you are.

Please note - there is NO such thing as a free pet. All pets require $ at one time or another spent on them and that can be considered a hassle at times.


----------



## Saleama

BeeBee*BeeLeaves said:


> turtlesteve said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, I got a good chuckle out of this. We just need to convince average people that giant tunnels, raceways, and dirt piles brighten up the lawn. If I buy a house, I intend to specifically avoid properties covered by homeowner's associations, just in case my neighbors don't agree
> 
> 
> 
> 
> turtlesteve, you know what would be so totally great? If we x-nay the lawn-ay as a society, period. They are money pits for one. In my area, part of the southwest of our great country, for instance, we are always hearing yada-yada save water. How cool would it be to forget about most of the grass, leave it in the front if you must, but create a habitat for a tortoise. No more mowing, no more 4 bucks a gallon gas, no more fumes, no more have to mow this weekend. Instead a lovely creature that once accommodated , can lower blood pressure and also do what I noted above. Educating people to look at it that way, would be great for our environment. Recent studies show/prove that a garden (native, drought tolerant, edible) is more cost efficient than a lawn and better for our environment and for birds and butterflies. These studies were shared by our Metro Water District. Woo hoo.
> 
> And once again, we simply must share with others in order to help and to educate ... which is why TFO is so wonderful. Ghandi said we are accountable for what we do and for what we do not do. Share.
> 
> Every tortoise should come with a little note that says, please join (or troll, like I did for a year LOL) TFO for the sake of your new pet.
> 
> And yeah, I agree about the HOA thing as some can be kinda Stepford Wife-ish. (eyes wide open).
Click to expand...


So funny to see someone say they lower blood pressure! I am a 44 year old diabetic with high blood pressure and anxiety (caused by work stress, unimportant) and since aquiring and caring for my torts and turts, I am 100% free of the medications ( I was on 6 different ones). I garden, I shop exotic stores, I have started to learn how to build things, all in an effort to take care of my little guys and gals.
I think with proper education and making sure people know what they are getting into and what will be required, these animals can do as much for us as we for them. Dogs and Dolphins have been used for theropy for decades, why not tortoises? And about overbreeding? One thing I have noticed about anything is that you don't see the abundance of something until you actually become involved with it. For example, I never once "saw" a Hyundai Tiberon until I started driving one and then they were EVERYWHERE. I never saw a live Sulcata tortoise until July of this year, now I own five of them and know, on line, a bunch of people who have them. Still, I don't think the "overbreeding" issue is here yet. The ammount of rescue animals can't be used as a barometer unless you know the ammount of happy, healthy animals that are NOT in need of rescue.


----------



## Sulcata_Sandy

This is an interesting discuss....I mean the "overpopulation" of Sulcata.
We have a new TFO member in the Los Angeles area looking for a big Sulcata to rescue. She's unable to find one! Not sure if she checked shelters...I can advise her. She even looked into having one shipped from another state. Ugh.

Tom, can you give me any ideas on where she can look in that area? Animal shelters up here don't take turtles and tortoises, they call rescues like IRR. I'm the contact for my county. I have a group for turtles, as I only handle tortoises.


----------



## erica anne

Saleama said:


> BeeBee*BeeLeaves said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> turtlesteve said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, I got a good chuckle out of this. We just need to convince average people that giant tunnels, raceways, and dirt piles brighten up the lawn. If I buy a house, I intend to specifically avoid properties covered by homeowner's associations, just in case my neighbors don't agree
> 
> 
> 
> 
> turtlesteve, you know what would be so totally great? If we x-nay the lawn-ay as a society, period. They are money pits for one. In my area, part of the southwest of our great country, for instance, we are always hearing yada-yada save water. How cool would it be to forget about most of the grass, leave it in the front if you must, but create a habitat for a tortoise. No more mowing, no more 4 bucks a gallon gas, no more fumes, no more have to mow this weekend. Instead a lovely creature that once accommodated , can lower blood pressure and also do what I noted above. Educating people to look at it that way, would be great for our environment. Recent studies show/prove that a garden (native, drought tolerant, edible) is more cost efficient than a lawn and better for our environment and for birds and butterflies. These studies were shared by our Metro Water District. Woo hoo.
> 
> And once again, we simply must share with others in order to help and to educate ... which is why TFO is so wonderful. Ghandi said we are accountable for what we do and for what we do not do. Share.
> 
> Every tortoise should come with a little note that says, please join (or troll, like I did for a year LOL) TFO for the sake of your new pet.
> 
> And yeah, I agree about the HOA thing as some can be kinda Stepford Wife-ish. (eyes wide open).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So funny to see someone say they lower blood pressure! I am a 44 year old diabetic with high blood pressure and anxiety (caused by work stress, unimportant) and since aquiring and caring for my torts and turts, I am 100% free of the medications ( I was on 6 different ones). I garden, I shop exotic stores, I have started to learn how to build things, all in an effort to take care of my little guys and gals.
> I think with proper education and making sure people know what they are getting into and what will be required, these animals can do as much for us as we for them. Dogs and Dolphins have been used for theropy for decades, why not tortoises? And about overbreeding? One thing I have noticed about anything is that you don't see the abundance of something until you actually become involved with it. For example, I never once "saw" a Hyundai Tiberon until I started driving one and then they were EVERYWHERE. I never saw a live Sulcata tortoise until July of this year, now I own five of them and know, on line, a bunch of people who have them. Still, I don't think the "overbreeding" issue is here yet. The ammount of rescue animals can't be used as a barometer unless you know the ammount of happy, healthy animals that are NOT in need of rescue.
Click to expand...


They definitely reduce stress. They are the last animal I would have pegged for this. People automatically think of dogs as an animal that do this, not tortoises. We have a Gardner that looks for Franklin when he comes by. It is obvious how much he enjoys him, he says Franklin makes him feel relaxed. I agree


----------



## Tom

tortoiselady said:


> A thought on the population subject - there may be more geographical issues going on with sulcatas which may be blowing this population issue out of proportion. Certain areas my be experiencing a very high population while others seem to have very low population. Something to consider when hearing complaints of over population, and yet you don't see it where you are.



This brings up a very good point: Perspective. When I hear about a rescue that has a whole lot of them, I always run it through MY frame of reference. I live in a warm southern state. I know lots and lots of people that have big sulcatas, and love and care for them well. I know of more people in my "area of operation" that are looking to get one, than are looking to place one (although not a lot of either).

I wonder if sulcatas are more of a problem in the frozen areas of the country because people get them and then realize they are in over their heads, or are they more of a problem in Southern states because people get them thinking they will be easy to handle due to their climate, and then realize they are in over their heads. What are your thoughts on this?




Saleama said:


> Still, I don't think the "overbreeding" issue is here yet. The ammount of rescue animals can't be used as a barometer unless you know the ammount of happy, healthy animals that are NOT in need of rescue.



This is a good point. You put into words a big part of the thoughts that run through my head when I hear about the "dire over-population problem" that so many people speak of.

I know of hundreds of sulcatas that have a happy home where they are loved and cared for. I hear of maybe 2 or 3 a year than need a new home, and those are snapped up pretty quick. Even the one's that are sold are snapped up quickly. The freebies go even quicker.


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## wellington

I don't think the colder states rescues, at least not the few I know, Michigan, Indiana and Illinois have an over abundance of Sullies. However, being in a cold state and the amount of room a large sully needs and the very little funds rescues have, I think them having only one or two Sullies is an over abundance to them. Then, if you read the CL listings for these same areas, there is almost always a 20-30 pound sully needing a home. They are on CL for months and months. When they are no longer listed, where did they go? Probably a rescue. I think it probably does have a lot to do with location and their definition of over abundance.


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## JennBell0725

Okay its final when I move ill build some enclosures for these ginormous unwanted guys. I'll call my farm "The China Shop" haha. I love my sweet Littlefoot. Then again I like pet cows bit hubby says no. So I just got a shelled cow


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## Jacqui

JennBell0725 said:


> Okay its final when I move ill build some enclosures for these ginormous unwanted guys. I'll call my farm "The China Shop" haha. I love my sweet Littlefoot. Then again I like pet cows bit hubby says no. So I just got a shelled cow



 Cute!


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

Saleama said:


> So funny to see someone say they lower blood pressure! I am a 44 year old diabetic with high blood pressure and anxiety (caused by work stress, unimportant) and since aquiring and caring for my torts and turts, I am 100% free of the medications ( I was on 6 different ones). I garden, I shop exotic stores, I have started to learn how to build things, all in an effort to take care of my little guys and gals.



This is so great. Loved reading this! : )


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## emysbreeder

wellington said:


> We will all be running for our lives as they all go on the attack. Okay, I guess we don't really have to run. We will all be crawling for our lives as they all go on the attack. . Okay, sorry, seriously. I do always wonder where all those babies go. Are there really that many people that wants a giant tort that could uproot their home? What about those adds wanting to buy whole clutches of them? Who are they and who buys all those babies? My opinion, breed them if you can house them, if you can't sell them. I'm not into culling any animal. If I couldn't sell a puppy for whatever reason, it had a forever home with me.


 They are the #1 "pet turtle/tort." in China. Chinese brokers are here in the US and will buy all we can make. (and they are not low-ballers,and pay on the spot. In fact there are a group of Chinese that is called an emerging market that have lots of money to spend. It is a very small number out of China's population of 1.3 B.,but it equals the total number of people in the USA. Their young,rich,and like Japan 30 yrs ago, all want what we have in America. Big cars, exodic pets,and to look like Elvis. A Chinese reptile broker has been here and are coming back tomorrow to buy more. I have not sold a tortoise to anyone in the USA sence the Daytona Expo last Aug. Yes life is strange, it like if I had to buy a box turtle from a Chinaman. The ad your talking about is from the Animal rights people who are backed by the US Gov. who does not want us to own animals, but in China everything is hunky dory. Stranger than fixtion after all, China is a Communist country. Who new?! I think I'll stamp the Asian Mt.Tortoises......Made in the USA. (in a swet shop in Florida) Vic Morgan




wellington said:


> We will all be running for our lives as they all go on the attack. Okay, I guess we don't really have to run. We will all be crawling for our lives as they all go on the attack. . Okay, sorry, seriously. I do always wonder where all those babies go. Are there really that many people that wants a giant tort that could uproot their home? What about those adds wanting to buy whole clutches of them? Who are they and who buys all those babies? My opinion, breed them if you can house them, if you can't sell them. I'm not into culling any animal. If I couldn't sell a puppy for whatever reason, it had a forever home with me.


 They are the #1 "pet turtle/tort." in China. Chinese brokers are here in the US and will buy all we can make. (and they are not low-ballers,and pay on the spot. In fact there are a group of Chinese that is called an emerging market that have lots of money to spend. It is a very small number out of China's population of 1.3 B.,but it equals the total number of people in the USA. Their young,rich,and like Japan 30 yrs ago, all want what we have in America. Big cars, exotic pets,and to look like Elvis. A Chinese reptile broker has been here and are coming back tomorrow to buy more. I have not sold a tortoise to anyone in the USA sence the Daytona Expo last Aug. Yes life is strange, it like if I had to buy a box turtle from a Chinaman. The ad your talking about is from the Animal rights people who are backed by the US Gov. who does not want us to own animals, but in China everything is hunky dory. Stranger than fixtion after all, China is a Communist country. Who new?! I think I'll stamp the Asian Mt.Tortoises......Made in the USA. (in a swet shop in Florida) Vic Morgan


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves

Vic, is this because tortoises are considered good luck in Chinese culture? Please tell me that is why they buy them and not to have a new food source in the future. Big place, that's a lot of tortoises. And no 4" law. Sucks to be US.

Also, even though they are trying to be like us - I read that there is even an "Orange County" there that looks just like our Irvine - the Communist just executed an entrepreneur Zeng Chengjie by firing squad in July. Zeng has been likened by the media to Bernie Madoff. The farmer's-son-turned-entrepreneur was found guilty this summer of defrauding investors in a massive Ponzi scheme similar to the now-disgraced American businessman. However, Zeng's real estate scheme cost him his life. Unlike Madoff, Zeng had a lot of supporters. "Nobody thought he was a crook, he was a decent personâ€”not an unscrupulous businessman." Oy, that Communist party. He obviously fell out of favor. After this happened, a lot of Chinese money has been leaving the country. Weird world we live in.


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## Terry Allan Hall

Tom said:


> I found Neal's post interesting. Never thought off this in that way. So the premise, when extrapolated out, is that all these sulcatas are being cared for by people who could be giving homes to DTs that have been illegally removed from the desert instead. If there weren't so many sulcata babies being produced, these people would instead line up to adopt all these DTs?
> 
> I don't think so. People want a sulcata because of what they are. Big, bold, beautiful, majestic... Don't get me wrong. DTs are great tortoises and I love the species. I could have as many as I want, but I have chosen other species for a variety of reasons.
> 
> Why are we only blaming sulcatas for lack of DT homes. What about all the Russians bought at Petco and Petsmart? How come those people didn't go out and adopt a DT instead? Basically ANY pet tortoise of ANY species could be taking up a potential DT home.
> 
> So should we stop ALL captive tortoise breeding until all the DTs have homes? Am I off base here? Does anyone else see it this way?



My thinking is that DTs should not be so difficult to adopt, particularly for folks out of state/country...there's a lot of good keepers all over the place that would gladly save these poor beasties from a life in a toxicly over-crowded "sanctuary", if the Government would simply allow it to happen!


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## Livingstone

All breeders and keepers should be required to have a permit/license, it should have to be renewed yearly and there should be a cap on species, especially large breeds. The licenses should be expensive enough to dissuade the masses, I was thinking roughly $500.00 with a renewal cost of $2.00 per animal per year. That's my opinion.


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## Tom

Livingstone said:


> All breeders and keepers should be required to have a permit/license, it should have to be renewed yearly and there should be a cap on species, especially large breeds. The licenses should be expensive enough to dissuade the masses, I was thinking roughly $500.00 with a renewal cost of $2.00 per animal per year. That's my opinion.




Involving the government with permits, fees and bureaucracy is NEVER a good idea. This does not solve ANY problems and it creates a whole lot of new ones. I have to strongly disagree with you here. Spent any time at the DMV lately. Does all that bureaucracy and all those fees stop speeding, drunk driving and stupid drivers in general? Now you wanna suggest we have a DTP (Department of Tortoise Permits)? No thank you.


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## mike taylor

I agree with Tom! Thats not a good idea . Government controls to much as it is . Their definition of control is ..... well we have no funds and no homes for all of these animals ...... so lets just kill them! Have you been keeping up with the B.L.M lately? They just put a crap load of endangered gopher tortoises down!


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## Livingstone

To be perfectly honest the DMV doesn't play much of a role in any of the actions you mentioned. Speeding, drunk driving, and stupid drivers are a product of ignorance and stupidity, not the DMV. None of those people sped, drove drunk, or acted stupidly while taking their driving test, or I can guarantee you they would not have been licensed. 

Honestly driving infractions are the worst example to use. Primarily because that system actually works very well. People get a license, people who break the law lose their license. The fines go toward roads, police, and other expenses of the state or county. In fact most of the revenue generated in localities is from traffic infractions. So those repaved roads, street lights, infrastructure, etc are all made possible by people who break the law. The funny thing is that if everybody drove in a legal and calm manner we'd be totally screwed because so much money is generated by those "idiots". 

If we did the same thing with tortoise ownership then we would have plenty of money to help endangered species like gopher tortoises because we could afford to provide space for native breeding populations and we could also afford to fight illegal trafficking of tortoises too.

Furthermore people are greedy, and if they can sit on their lazy fat asses and let an animal breed in their backyard to make a profit then chances are they will. Ease of ownership of these animals is the primary reason for the problem, if there was an *** load of paperwork and bureaucracy making it difficult for every would-be sulcata owner to get their hands on one, we would be combating the problem. They would be less accessible and over time the number of breeders who slowly decrease. 

YES, there would be fallout and animals would die. But look at all the juveniles that die (as evidenced by this forum) suffering at the hands of people who don't have a clue how to take care of them. You think that's better? 

Look at how many people own a cute little sulcata... Half of them still live with their parents. What do you think is going to happen when that person enters the real world, has to work 40+ hours, or goes to college? Maybe you guys are just naive... 

The reality is that by enacting legislature that decreases the ease of ownership, and punishes people monetarily for failing to meet the needs of an animal they chose to own, we can effectively keep animals out of the hands of the wrong people.


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## leigti

I am finding this thread very interesting. I don't know enough to understand the subject on the entire country basis but I have noticed some local trends. First of all, seen a cute little Sulcata baby in the pet store is what got me into tortoises to begin with. I was totally smitten. But I did my research and realized that I could not keep one for a long-term basis, definitely not when it got full-grown. I live in a northern climate and it would take a great deal of modification to My yard 
to make it safe for the Tortoise. Long story short, I got a little Russian tortoise and I am very happy, I can provide an indoor and outdoor enclosure for him and provide for him very well. However the local pet store is still selling those cute little baby so Sulcatas hand over fist. They give the new owners all the wrong information and have been resistant to any suggestions or information on the proper care for these babies. I personally know of three people who have bought one and then had it die shortly after. There are also ads on craigslist locally with the tortoises that nobody wants anymore, their shells are very bumpy and they obviously have not been raised correctly. All this really makes me wonder what's going to happen when all these baby tortoises get to be 50, 75, hundred and 50 pounds. Even people with the best intentions can be overwhelmed when an animal that gifts that big and distractive starts to tear their house and yard apart. These are just my opinions.


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## shanu303

what if the rare species were bred instead of sulcatas but at the same scale as the sulcatas are bred.... 
and i've read that releasing these creatures in the wild would cause a problem ... but how would it cause a problem.... 
and if releasing is not an option then why not relocate these sulcatas in sanctuaries in their native land?? can this be a possible option??
living in india i can say is that there ain't a single tortoise species other than the indian star tortoise...
and on the matter of government getting involved,,,, they do make the rules but in my country the rules are hardly followed.... people are still fetching them from the wild for they believe "Tortoises are lucky according to Feng Shui and Vastu Shastra"
and you guys won't believe that one can get a nice Hatchling- Yearling star tortoise for as low as 33 US Dollars...


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## wiccan_chicken

Maiasmom said:


> I'm 23 and we have a sulcata but it was a family decision and our 5 year old daughter was a huge part of picking Maia. Our daughter is part of her everyday life helps feed her soak her check her temps etc. my hopes are that once Maia does outlive myself and Ron then our daughter will be a "pro" at her care and pass the knowledge of her care onto her children. We have every intention of Maia being an "heirloom" per say
> 
> 
> View attachment 60942
> View attachment 60943
> 
> She asked if Maia could lay with her will I rubbed her arm so she could fall asleep






That.... is the CUTEST thing I have ever seen! A child and tortoise growing up together. I would LOVE to see pictures of the two together!


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## Alex77

I suppose I'll play it safe and say 'no' to banning the sale of Sulcatas, but 'yes' to making waaay stricter regulations about how they are sold. 

I saw a baby sulcata at the same store where I bought my baby graeca. The baby Sulcata was teeny-tiny, very cute, active and personable. The salesperson told me all I needed was to show my i.d. and pay for the tort, terrarium and accessories in order to be allowed to take it home. I decided to sleep on it and did some online research. Saw some pics of kids riding their ginormous pet tortoises and thought, 'Hang on, I'd better check and make sure that's not what an adult Silicate looks like'. Sure enough, it was. So I did the smart thing and bought the much smaller graeca, even it was less cute than the Sulcata baby. And I'm glad I did!

Now, every time that I see a pic of someone's ginormous Sulcata, I think what a near-miss I had. Pet shops should be obliged by law to show a pic of the baby versus the adult size on every tortoise tank... on every pet cage, full stop.

So that's my two cents, since you asked for it ;-)


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## dmmj

I heard they cast spells on you.
But seriously they actually plan on taking over the world. mwahahahaha.
They can be aggressive during mating seaon with other males around (same here). but they tend to like people, propaganda has to grab your attention, otherwise it is not effective.


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## FLINTUS

For me, it's not the problem with aggresiveness, but the fact that so many can't find homes when they get bigger. They are overbred. I wouldn't say ban breeding of them as the wild population is in steep decline, but I would say that maybe a permit for them may be better, and you can only incubate a certain number of eggs per female per year.


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## surfergirl

My sully has never been aggressive with me. he is over 100lbs 20 years old and definitely does not like being stopped by the grill or lawn furniture. lol! I will say that I make my guests with painted toe nails sign a waiver.... my sully is very active and needs lots of space and I can only hope all people who are considering ownership do their homework before committing to buying one. It is much like any other pets- people are the problem not the pet....they get something on a whim and then figure out they cannot take good care of it. look at all the rehoming of dogs and cats every weekend. I have been shocked by why people give up their pets. some people have good reasons not saying anything about that but some of the reasons i have heard have been crazy to me. i spay and neuter all my dogs and cats asap.

My sully probably has years of pinned up sexual aggression since he has never seen a female and as far as my plans he never will. hopefully this will not harm him but i am good with leaving the breeding of torts to others. i would run out of room quick wanting to keep them all. :0


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## mike taylor

My Sally will RAM you for sure . Harry would even give it a try . But like people tortoises have moods . Even if people breed 1000s of tortoises a year you're going to have death rates. Not every Tortoise will live to see a year . Those that hit the year mark may get eaten by a dog or something else. Some keepers may unknowingly step on one . What I'm saying they have mortality rates in captivity also. I personally let my tortoises do what they do .If she lays I destroy the eggs . I love my animals but I don't have time to be caring for 100+ babies every year . I wish we could sell them at higher cost to make people think before they buy . But that's not going to happen . Like Tom said if people are breeding here no body is taking wild ones .


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