# question regarding sulcata staple diet



## carapace (Jan 2, 2009)

im currently feeding my sulcata elephant grass as a staple food.. is this okay, i also powder some d3 and sometimes give hibiscus flowers as a treat...


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## tortoisenerd (Jan 2, 2009)

Do you know exactly what type of elephant grass? There are several types. What's the protein content in it?


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## Kristina (Jan 2, 2009)

I think you should be feeding more variety than just grass and hibiscus. They need more nutrient variables than that.

In another post your tort looked pretty pyramided, and that tells me there needs to be a change.

Whether or not the elephant grass is good depends on protein content, as Kate already asked.

Kristina


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 3, 2009)

Your tortoise needs a more varied diet. During winter when graze is hard to come by, I buy a box of Spring Mix from the produce section in the store. then I add all kinds of different lettuces and collards, dandelion, kale, endive, escarole etc, and whatever else the store has to offer. I also pick weeds and cut whatever grass is available which is not much cause it's mostly under snow right now. but anyway that's the basis of what I do, then I cut up hay into small pieces for my smaller tortoises and add regular hay for my larger tortoises. I also add weeds and leafs and blooms...
I go to the feed store and fill several large bags with loose hay. Sometimes they charge me $2 and sometimes it's free. It's soft and sweet smelling locally grown grass hay and marsh grass...


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## Yvonne G (Jan 3, 2009)

Elephant grass is just ONE of the different types of seeds in the "grazing tortoise mixture" that you can buy from Turtlestuff.com. There's nothing wrong with elephant grass, but its not enough variety. 

Yvonne


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## smoke_kush (Jan 30, 2009)

d3 is really bad for torts. It can actually intoxicate them. But a calcium supplement is a very good addition to a torts diet


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## Meg90 (Jan 30, 2009)

I have NEVER heard that about d3. In fact, I have heard that hatchlings, and juvies should have d3 everyday....

where did you read about that?


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## Yvonne G (Jan 30, 2009)

smoke_kush said:


> d3 is really bad for torts. It can actually intoxicate them. But a calcium supplement is a very good addition to a torts diet



I had never heard this before, so I did a GOOGLE search on "tortoise vitamin d intoxication" and came up with this site. Its good reading, but I think the fact that it talks about intoxication in a naked mole rat rather than in a creature that actually sees the sun negates the intoxication theory for tortoises. If you scroll down, it does talk about the importance of D3 in reptiles, but not intoxication in reptiles:

http://www.russiantortoise.org/vitamin_d3.htm

Yvonne


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## Meg90 (Jan 30, 2009)

Thanks Yvonne...I was worried for a sec!
Nigel's supplement has d3 in it...And I know that Danny does recommend it for hatchlings...


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## tortoisenerd (Jan 30, 2009)

I've heard both arguments. I personally don't supplement D3 with the calcium as Trevor gets plenty of UVB from his bulb, I have read that too much D3 can be toxic, and my vet also said no D3 and I trust her. I personally think the danger outweighs the benefit. This has been discussed before here:

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-4760.html
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-4916.html
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-2905.html
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-4697.html
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-2932.html
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-587.html
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-5631.html


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 30, 2009)

I have pretty much kept to the rule that if your tort has access to the sun, no D3. If he doesn't get in the sun then he needs D3...or is it the other way around???


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## tortoisenerd (Jan 30, 2009)

Maggie-I think you have it right. Some here will disagree with us though.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 30, 2009)

tortoisenerd said:


> Maggie-I think you have it right. Some here will disagree with us though.



Let'em...I will drag out my healthy active not pyramided animals and show them off...lol


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## smoke_kush (Jan 30, 2009)

My vet also said NOOOOO to the D3! I trust my doctor in his medical advice.

Dude, I'm telling you. The d3 can be very harmful to your tortoise. It will intoxicate the tortoise if too much is given! Calcium without the d3 is much healthier than the latter supplement. Ask your vet and he/she will tell you the same thing man. 
Be kind to your tortoise


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 30, 2009)

I am not a dude...very much the woman actually...I have raised numerous tortoises with and without D3. My animals have to be inside here for 7 months thru the winter and they need the D-3 to carry them thru until the spring. They need D3 to help metabolize the food...but you shouldn't mix D3 and sunlight... you shouldn't mix D3 with UVB rays...


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## Kristina (Jan 30, 2009)

maggie3fan said:


> I am not a dude...very much the woman actually...I have raised numerous tortoises with and without D3. My animals have to be inside here for 7 months thru the winter and they need the D-3 to carry them thru until the spring. They need D3 to help metabolize the food...but you shouldn't mix D3 and sunlight... you shouldn't mix D3 with UVB rays...



I agree with this... I do not give D3 to torts that are either out in the sunlight, or under UV lights. 

There is a certain amount of D3 that is also obtained from diet. Overdosing D3 leads to mineralization of the soft tissues and renal damage.

It is more important IMO for growing tortoises to recieve D3 than mature ones, but I still feel that over-doing it can be very dangerous. I think that many tortoise keepers overestimate the amount of UV needed to synthesize proper D3 production, and over supplement D3.

Maggie, you are very much the woman, and a strong one at that 

Kristina


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## Meg90 (Jan 30, 2009)

smoke_kush said:


> Be kind to your tortoise



I know you are new here and all, but to give advice is one thing, to imply mistreatment is ANOTHER.

I know you mean well, and probably just want to get your point across, but no one here is INTENTIONALLY trying to harm their tortoise. I was actually pretty offended by that remark, and the accompanying email I received.

Honestly, you are new to tortoises. People here have kept them for years.

And sometimes vets are just downright WRONG. I have seen it on these forums more than once, in just the past few months that I have been here.

I trust Maggie however, and if she says that its a no-no. I will get a new supplement.


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## nrfitchett4 (Jan 31, 2009)

not sure about tort's, but for ig's dietary d3 is a no-no. their stomach doesn't do well processing it and it can cause illness.
a good rule of thumb is that any vitamin that is fat soluble can be overdosed. Why chance it when they can get it all from sunlight?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D[hr]
Vitamin D and Ultraviolet Light
Animals in their natural habitat are extremely unlikely to suffer hypovitaminosis-D3. Deficiencies are possible in captive animals which are deprived of access to sunlight or a suitable artificial U.V. source of sufficient intensity, e.g. True-lite @ (Durolite Corporation) or blacklight. Symptoms of deficiency include poor locomotion, osteomalacia and osteoporosis. Plant foods contain nil vitamin D3 [plants do contain ergocalciferol, otherwise known as. D2. -MK]. The skin of tortoises is however, extremely rich in oils containing sterols which react with UV to produces the vitamin and provided adequate UV exposure is attained oral supplementation is not necessary (Kauffield, 1969; Wagner, 1977). It is common for herpetologists to over estimate D3 demand and to grossly overdose orally. One possible consequence of this practice is metastatic mineralisation of the soft tissues (Barten, 1982; Wallach and Hoessle, 1966). Vitamin D3 is highly toxic and extreme caution should be exercised whenever oral supplementation is employed (Finlayson and Woods, 1977). If calcium and phosphorous are provided in suitable ratios and sufficient quantity and quality of UV are available, hypovitaminosis D3 is not at all likely. Human demand is for 10 micrograms (400iu) per day which can be obtained from as little as 3 hours exposure to sunlight. The requirements of tortoises are not known in detail, although Zwart (1987) suggest that 10-20,000 iu of D3 per Kg of general vitamin-mineral supplement dosed routinely at 4% food volume is an effective prophylactic measure where exposure to UV is inadequate.



taken from: http://www.anapsid.org/dietcons.html


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## Maggie Cummings (Jan 31, 2009)

nrfitchett4 said:


> not sure about tort's, but for ig's dietary d3 is a no-no. their stomach doesn't do well processing it and it can cause illness.
> a good rule of thumb is that any vitamin that is fat soluble can be overdosed. Why chance it when they can get it all from sunlight?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D[hr]
> Vitamin D and Ultraviolet Light
> ...


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## galvinkaos (Jan 31, 2009)

Yvonne, how about cuttlebone in the enclosure for them to eat when they want? Would you sprinkle their food occasionally too?

Dawna


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## Yvonne G (Jan 31, 2009)

galvinkaos said:


> Yvonne, how about cuttlebone in the enclosure for them to eat when they want? Would you sprinkle their food occasionally too?
> 
> Dawna



Personally, I don't sprinkle any of my tortoises' food with supplements. Every pen has a cuttlebone in it. Sometimes they eat it, most of the times it stays whole and untouched. In my opinion, if they are eating the cuttlebone, I wouldn't sprinkle the calcium supplement on their food. Bear in mind that some foods are calcium-rich. I have TNT, but have never used it. Some people swear by it and don't use any other supplements. I tend to err on Nature's side and just allow the tortoises to be tortoises. If I notice a problem occurring, then I will address that particular problem individually, but I think we all supplement too much.

Yvonne


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## galvinkaos (Jan 31, 2009)

i just found a 5" cuttlebones (huge) for 60 cents each and I bought them to cut them and put a piece in with the RES, the DT and the cockatiel. So far the RES are the only ones that did not munch on it. 

Dawna


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## Meg90 (Jan 31, 2009)

Hey Maggie...tried to PM you. Told me you've got it disabled.


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## tortoisenerd (Jan 31, 2009)

My tort has a cuttlebone but hasn't touched it. Since he's a baby I do sprinkle pure calcium over his food more days than not (but still have some off days). If I saw he was eating the cuttlebone I'd probably cut back or stop supplementing the calcium. But, calcium is pretty safe to not be overdoing it (although too much calcium can be a bad thing, like said earlier in this thread, other vitamins that are fat soluble are the ones you have to watch out for overdoing the supplementation). My personal opinion.


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## Meg90 (Jan 31, 2009)

Now this is what I am wondering....I went out today to buy fish for the frogs and ALL of the supplements that I found had D3 in them. EVERY SINGLE ONE.

Apparently, even the bird vitamins have it in there too.

I really want to here what Danny has to say about all this, because he is very adamant about having d3 daily for babies (or so I thought--I might be mistaken)

And now what I want to know is where everybody is getting their "pure" calcium.

I am darn near at my wits end with this, and pretty soon am just going to pulverize a pack of cuttlebones and make my own calcium.

Pictures or exact brand names would be lovely.


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## tortoisenerd (Jan 31, 2009)

I'm personally using up Cuttlebone since I have two, and then I have a sample of Repcal w/o D3 to use up. I've seen Calcium without D3 at every pet store reptile section I've been to. Also, you can buy a human supplement called "calcium carbonate" that is just the powered calcium (sold in health food stores or vitamin stores), nothing added. My vet recommended it as it is pure and cheap. Comes in a container 2-3 times that of the reptile stuff for the same price.

I know Danny recommends D3 so I'm just posting my opinion since I know he has way way more experience than I do.


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## nrfitchett4 (Jan 31, 2009)

Meg90 said:


> Now this is what I am wondering....I went out today to buy fish for the frogs and ALL of the supplements that I found had D3 in them. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
> 
> Apparently, even the bird vitamins have it in there too.
> 
> ...



I buy human calcium supplements and grind them in a coffee grinder. My ig also gets a multi vitamin since I premake and freeze his salad.


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## Crazy1 (Feb 4, 2009)

Meg you can get powdered Calcium carbonate at most healthfood stores or even your local pharmacy should have it or you could spend a lot more and buy it at the petstores, Jurassi Cal and Reptical are ones sold in petstores and they should state without D3. The only D3 I use for my Greeks including the hatchlings are in the bird vit I soak them in. But I also live in So Cal and they get outside time at least an hour a week or more most of the time during winter. 
Here is a site that tells about D3 usage as well as 100 % pure calcium. It also talks about calcium to phosphorus ratios. Be warned there are some pretty nasty pics of badly cared for torts on this site. http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/webdiet.htm


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## nrfitchett4 (Feb 12, 2009)

Supplemental Vitamin D3 Overdoses???
http://www.reptilepets.co.za/rp0612od.htm


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## tortoisenerd (Feb 12, 2009)

A couple broken links on that site but helpful. Thanks!


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## nrfitchett4 (Feb 12, 2009)

I just found it interesting. Doesn't look to have been updated lately. I'd hate to lose an animal that way.


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