# I am baby sitting a CDT hatchling - it won't eat, sleeps all day, and has mucus



## TheBabySitter (Jan 5, 2017)

A friend of mine went on a vacation on a cruise ship, and left me with their new hatchling. I've had the baby for 8 days now, and they don't return for 4 more days. I've done as much research as possible and I fear that they didn't give me accurate care info.

Immediately after receiving the tortoise in its enclosure, it would only sleep. If I woke it up and hand fed the baby it would eat (was giving it bok choy). The moment I stopped encouraging eating, it would walk back into the burrow and sleep. I put out fresh food each day, and changed the water, but it never sought them out on its own.

On day three I noticed it was blowing a bubble of mucus while breathing from one nostril. Over the next few days the baby became less willing to eat, and would refuse food after a couple bites, always eager to return to the burrow. The past 3 days it hasn't been willing to eat at all. 

I have an appointment with a vet tomorrow. ( the owners don't have a regular vet so I found someone local )

The lamp they gave me is a coiled fluorescent bulb, and based on the color it puts out I believe it is a UV type bulb, but can't verify. I measured the temp below the bulb at basking level and it was 73*. My house is heated and stays around 72*

I have no idea if the baby wants to hibernate right now, or if the enclosure is too cold, and much I need to worry. I'd love to get it healthy and happy, and provide advice to its owners on the best care when they return. 

I believe the baby is about 3 or 4 months old. 

Thank you all for any help!


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## Tom (Jan 5, 2017)

This baby needs HEAT and it needs it right now!

You need to get a basking lamp and give it a 100 degree basking spot for 12-14 hours a day and the ambient needs to be kept up around 80-85 day and night for a while.

Read these. Its written for russian tortoises, but care is the same:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

Most people don't care for these babies correctly and most of them die as a result. Do it the way I've outlined in the care sheet and this baby might make it.


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## TheBabySitter (Jan 5, 2017)

Tom said:


> This baby needs HEAT and it needs it right now!
> 
> You need to get a basking lamp and give it a 100 degree basking spot for 12-14 hours a day and the ambient needs to be kept up around 80-85 day and night for a while.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your response. I was figuring that, but the owners had said they don't use the light and I don't need to if I don't want to. Its been on the past few days, but I will go and get a proper bulb immediately. 

Should I cancel the Vet appointment? I hate to move this little guy around if its not needed. Its cold weather here right now, and I was worried about driving it around and exposing it to the elements. 

Other then the lamp, is there way way to control the ambient temp? Or do you set the lamp in a spot and measure the temp and adjust the placement of the bulb as needed? I can't heat the entire house to 85* for obvious reasons. 

Also what is the best way to measure the temperature?


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## Ciri (Jan 5, 2017)

It's good that you are taking the baby CDT to a veterinarian as it likely is sick. The mucous bubble from the nose is a clear sign of an infection. Is the veterinarian you will be going to a reptile specialist? That does help a lot. Meanwhile, bringing the baby inside and keeping him at 85 to 90° until seen by a veterinarian is a good plan. He'll need darkness at night for sleeping, but a light on in the day is fine.

Bok choy is not the best food. If you have plants grown without any chemical fertilizers, herbicides or pesticides these are ones to look for: dandelions, hibiscus leaves and flowers, rose flowers and young leaves, mulberry and grape leaves, clover, dichondra, filaree, spurge, rose petals, petunias, verbena, and native plants such as globemallow.

Soaking in lukewarm water is important – I would suggest once or twice a day until seen by a vet. Make sure the water is very shallow so that the tortoise can easily hold its head out of the water and breathe while soaking. For that age of tortoise water which is about one quarter of an inch deep is usually adequate. I use a sanitized ceramic dish or the lid from a plastic container. Something which is run through the dishwasher on heated dry, or has been sanitized with bleach and well rinsed afterwards will do. It's important that the tortoise can get out of the bowl or lid without any struggle. If you can't find something that is appropriately shallow, then use a larger dish and stay with them while they soak. In this case you cannot take your eye off of them as they can flip themselves while struggling get to get out and end up drowning in the water.

I don't know if you're in Southern California, but if this helps the San Diego turtle and tortoise Society is a very good resource.

Hope all goes well with the baby. Keep us updated, and let us know if you have any other questions we can help you with.


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## Ciri (Jan 5, 2017)

TheBabySitter said:


> Thank you for your response. I was figuring that, but the owners had said they don't use the light and I don't need to if I don't want to. Its been on the past few days, but I will go and get a proper bulb immediately.
> 
> Should I cancel the Vet appointment? I hate to move this little guy around if its not needed. Its cold weather here right now, and I was worried about driving it around and exposing it to the elements.
> 
> ...


 I use a heater in one room to give the tortoise enough warmth. I use a little wired or wireless outdoor thermometer to measure the temperature. If you get the wired type make sure that the tortoise can't get caught up in the cord. I usually rigged it so that it hangs down and doesn't reach where the tortoise can walk over and touch it. If you were the regular caretaker, rather than the babysitter, I would be suggesting a ceramic heater emitter and a ceramic fixture. When your friends come back that would be a good idea for them to get for their baby.

The vet appointment is important as respiratory infections and tortoises can be deadly and can require antibiotics to effectively treat. Taking the baby in the car shouldn't be too problematic.


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## dmmj (Jan 5, 2017)

I would keep the vet appointment the tortoise sound sick. No matter what the vet says NO VITAMIN SHOTS! they're often given @ toxic levels.


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## TheBabySitter (Jan 5, 2017)

Ok, Vet appointment sticks, its tomorrow after noon. I am going to buy a 65 watt flood bulb, I also have a 75 watt bulb here. 

What is the best method to measure temperature. Is this kind of thing what I need? I don't want to cook the poor thing. http://www.homedepot.com/p/General-...ximum-Temperature-608-Degree-IRT206/100651817

This place is awesome, really appreciate all the quick feedback


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## Ciri (Jan 5, 2017)

TheBabySitter said:


> Ok, Vet appointment sticks, its tomorrow after noon. I am going to buy a 65 watt flood bulb, I also have a 75 watt bulb here.
> 
> What is the best method to measure temperature. Is this kind of thing what I need? I don't want to cook the poor thing. http://www.homedepot.com/p/General-...ximum-Temperature-608-Degree-IRT206/100651817
> 
> This place is awesome, really appreciate all the quick feedback


 although I haven't used that type of thermometer, I've heard of others in the group using those. It probably would work fine.


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## Tom (Jan 5, 2017)

Bless you for trying so hard to help someone else's baby. I hope they appreciate it when they get back.

-I would not use the cfl UV bulb. Those sometimes burn reptile eyes and they shouldn't be used.
-Go to tHome Depot or Lowes and you'll need to get two of these: http://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-300-Watt-Incandescent-Brooder-Clamp-Light-HD-303PDQ/204684496
Or something similar.
-While you are there, get a 65-100 watt "flood" bulb for one of those fixtures, get a digital light timer, get two terra cotta plant saucers for food and water, and get a digital thermometer for about $10.
-Either on-line or at the pet store get a CHE (Ceramic Heating Element) and a thermostat. Something like this: http://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcos...care-ceramic-infrared-heat-emitters-100-watts
and this: http://www.lllreptile.com/products/13883-zilla-1000-watt-temperature-controller

-Once you get home you will need to rig some way to hang the lamp fixtures from over head. Don't use the clamps that come with those fixtures as they always fail. You can use PVC pipe or 2x4s to make a simple over head rack. Then hang your basking bulb over one end of the enclosure and put the thermometer under it. Let the thermometer cook for a couple hours and adjust the height of the fixture until the temperature under it is around 100 degrees. Set this lamp on the timer to come on around 6am and go off around 7pm. Then hang the other fixture with the CHE right over the middle of the enclosure. Plug this fixture into the thermostat, put the temperature probe on the cool side away from the heat lamp and set the dial to a little over 80 degrees. These two things will take care of heating and lighting 24/7. Don't worry about UV right now. They can go without it for weeks at a time over winter if need be.

-Next thing is to make sure you have the correct substrate and keep it damp. Fine grade orchid bark or coco coir works best. It can be purchased cheaply at garden centers or ordered online. You can buy it at a pet store but its very expensive for small quantities.

-Final purchase is a black dishwashing tub from Walmart. They cost less than $2. Flip it upside down and keep the substrate under it more damp and cut out a small door hole for the tortoise. This will serve as the humid hide.

With all this electric heat it will be important to soak this baby in shallow warm water daily to keep him hydrated. 20-30 minutes is enough, but keep the baby warm all the way through.

-There is nothing a vet will do to help a hatchling in a situation like this. They will charge you a bunch of money and likely do more harm than good. Fix the problem and if the baby is not too far gone it will recover and pull through. If the baby is too far gone, there is nothing a vet can do anyway.

Please feel free to ask questions. We are happy to help.


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## JoesMum (Jan 5, 2017)

A temperature gun type thermometer like this is best



This was the cheapest I could find in Home Depot (but I'm in the UK) http://m.homedepot.com/p/General-Tools-Mini-Infrared-Thermometer-IRT3/205519139


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## Tom (Jan 5, 2017)

TheBabySitter said:


> What is the best method to measure temperature. Is this kind of thing what I need? I don't want to cook the poor thing. http://www.homedepot.com/p/General-...ximum-Temperature-608-Degree-IRT206/100651817
> /QUOTE]




Those are good for surface temps, but this will serve you better:
http://www.homedepot.com/s/accu%20rite%20thermometer?NCNI-5


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## Yvonne G (Jan 5, 2017)

Stop using the coiled bulb. That's probably why he's hiding. Those bulbs are painful to the baby's eyes.

Cover the habitat to keep the warm air inside and get the temperature up to 80-85F degrees all over the whole habitat. Soak the baby in warm water daily for at least 15 minutes.

Bok Choy is an ok item to feed as *part of a varied diet.* But it's not good to be the only thing that's fed. Turnip greens, filaree, mallow, grass cut up into real small pieces, endive, escarole, any of these things are good to feed a baby desert tortoise.

But the two most important things that need changing right away are get rid of that light, and warm up the habitat.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 5, 2017)

Tell the owners when they come back that you did some web research and found out they need to change the way they care for this baby or it's going to die. But be a little more diplomatic than that so they don't turn you off.

You know, of course, that when they get back and the baby is sick, it's because of the way you cared for it, and not because they haven't been good caretakers and didn't give you good instructions on how to care for the baby. So be kind, have your ammunition handy (a good care sheet) and good luck!

The care sheet Tom linked for you is a good one, but I hesitate to have you print it out for the owners because it says "Russian Tortoise Care Sheet" and that might make them feel it's not a good care sheet for their baby. But basically the care is the same for baby desert tortoises as it is for baby Russian tortoises. There just isn't a good care sheet on the web to choose from, darn it.


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## Ciri (Jan 5, 2017)

You might want to give these links to the people who have the tortoise (after they return):

This is a brochure listing lots of really healthy native foods for desert tortoises:
http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/tortoise/documents/NativePlantsforDesertTortoises_2008.pdf

a good source of seeds (they even have a desert tortoise wildflower mix):
http://shop.nativeseeds.org/pages/seeds

The Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum has excellent info compiled by reptile specialist veterinarian who has cared for the museums desert tortoises for 35 years. The only thing I would comment on regarding this care sheet is that I like to have water constantly available for hatchlings, and I prefer to soak an adult desert tortoise weekly. Also, having both dry areas of their enclosure and areas that are watered on a daily basis is best. It's important that wet areas can dry out overnight so that the tortoise doesn't get sick from the constantly wet soil.
http://www.desertmuseum.org/programs/tap_tortcare.php

the San Diego Turtle and Tortoise Society is a great organization:

http://www.sdturtle.org/public_documents/sdtts_goodandbadgardenplants.pdf#!care-sheets/c217k

keep us updated. It's great you're looking out for this little desert tortoise!


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## TheBabySitter (Jan 5, 2017)

Took everyone's advice and got the habitat up to 100 below the lamp and 81 in the corner. Should I leave the light on 24hrs right now to maintain temp? It's the only heat source I have at the moment. 

The tortoise was noticeably more active within an hour, and even sought out the fresh romaine. She ate quite a bit and then walked through the water dish and crawled into a space below the wood bridge in cage. I pulled her out and put her in a shallow dish of warm water. She didn't budge. Seemed to be happy in the warm water. Left her there for 15 minutes. Then took her out and she circled the cage again and burrowed in. So I'll leave her for the night. 

She was still blowing a bubble out of her nostril so I'll go ahead and take her to the Vet and see what they recommend. I'm very cautious to allow any procedure, I'll post here what they say. If they recommend antibiotics is it safe to wait until the owner returns or should I start treatment immediately? How are antibiotics usually administered for a little guy like this? 

Thank you everyone for your advice. This is the most activity I've seen from the little one since I got it, I wish I found this forum sooner. I'll be sure to point the owner to this thread since this is obviously a wonder little community.


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## Tom (Jan 5, 2017)

I would not go to the vet. There is nothing they can do for a tiny little one like this. Anything they do is likely to kill it. They cannot handle the stress of transport and medications at this size, especially when their fledgling little systems are already taxed by sickness.

The problem was/is the lack of heat. Solve the problem and the symptoms go away. The vets attempts to treat the symptoms are usually fatal at this size.

They need it dark at night, but still warm. The sun can't stay up for 24 hours a day. That messes them up too. I'd keep the ambient temp closer to 85 day and night until two weeks after symptoms go away. This is best accomplished with a CHE or two set on a thermostat. It is very important with all this healing heat that this baby gets soaked for 20-30 minutes at least once a day. All the electric heat can dehydrate them and cause a whole different issue.


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## Lyn W (Jan 6, 2017)

TheBabySitter said:


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Glad there's been some improvement with the extra heat. Many of us use ceramic heat emitters at night which just gives out heat but uses a bulb fitting. They need a thermostat too to stop it getting too hot/cold but they cost a lot. Some people use black bulbs to provide night heat - they are much cheaper, but I have never used one so don't know if they need a thermostat too or are just ok without one so you need to check that with other members before use. Good luck to you and the little one. It is very good of you to try to help him.


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## TheBabySitter (Jan 6, 2017)

I met with the only "expert" I could find. She is an owner of several adult CDTs, and has 4 young ones around 5 years old. She told me not to be surprised if this hatchling dies; over the years she has had near 100 eggs and only 4 had survived. This shocked me, but also made me worry she wasn't do it right. Is this a typical mortality rate in captivity?

She advised me to change the substrate in the terrarium, its currently some sort of wood chip things in half of it (after soaking the tort she got covered all over in little splinter looking things trying to bury herself in it), the other half is small stones and pebbles (all can be seen in the pictures posted above). She told me to replace all of it with Eco Earth Coconut Fiber Substrate, at several inches deep to allow the little one to burrow. 

She told me NEVER to touch it, that if it buries itself to leave it alone. I told her of the recommendation to soak the little one each day, and she said it would do that itself as needed, and that if they can go along time buried and not eating. I told her that the family that owns this one, has 4 year old and they handle it ALL THE TIME, and hand feed it. She said all of the handling is likely why it is sick, and that a baby tort is a horrible pet for a child. She then told me again if it dies its not my fault ;(

She said when the eggs come out, they look like ping pong balls and if you touch them they wont hatch, and that little hatchlings are also very sensitive to touch, and they usually die from stress. 

She told me the vet appointment was pointless, and agreed the temp and substrate will be the most important thing to control. So I cancelled the visit to the vet, and I will leave that decision to the owners.

Now, my question for all you very helpful folks... what do you think of this advice? I'd love to pass all this advice to the family that owns it when they return and allow them to make the decision. I also have a number for a CDT rescue near Ventura CA in case they decide to give it up. 

Should I continue to handle the baby and make sure it gets soaking and encouraged to eat? 

FYI - I added a ceramic heater to the mix, with temp control, and the light is cycling 6a-7p. She ate some endive today, and seemed to be really happy about it, but only after I woke her up to give her a warm soak and then set her in front of the the food. After eating for about 10 minutes, she returned to bury herself in the wood bits and has been there the rest of the day.


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## Tom (Jan 6, 2017)

TheBabySitter said:


> I met with the only "expert" I could find. She is an owner of several adult CDTs, and has 4 young ones around 5 years old. She told me not to be surprised if this hatchling dies; over the years she has had near 100 eggs and only 4 had survived. This shocked me, but also made me worry she wasn't do it right. Is this a typical mortality rate in captivity?
> 
> She advised me to change the substrate in the terrarium, its currently some sort of wood chip things in half of it (after soaking the tort she got covered all over in little splinter looking things trying to bury herself in it), the other half is small stones and pebbles (all can be seen in the pictures posted above). She told me to replace all of it with Eco Earth Coconut Fiber Substrate, at several inches deep to allow the little one to burrow.
> 
> ...



She gave you good advice with the coco coir for substrate, but the rest is hogwash, I'm sorry to say.

4 out of 100? That's like taking marriage advice from someone whose been divorced 8 times… That is a dismal record. Is this typical? Sadly, yes it is, but it shouldn't be. It is purely because of old out-dated, incorrect care info.

I touch nearly every egg my tortoises lay and most of them hatch.

Babies don't die from stress. They usually die of dehydration, cold temperatures, or the family dog.

I agree with her that a vet visit is pointless in this case.

100% percent of the ones I've put my hands on survive. And most of them come to me already dehydrated and messed up. I've brought several of them back from the brink of death after people like the lady you talked to did what they do to them. In all my years and dozens of babies, only one has ever died and that one was almost dead when they handed it to me. Follow the care sheet I linked for you, and hopefully you've caught this one soon enough. Please share this info with the lady you spoke to and invite her to come here and learn how to get her babies to survive.

Do keep soaking every day and keep the warm temperatures and bright lighting up. This baby can still make it.


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## Diamond (Jan 6, 2017)

I hope your friends realize they left their baby with a very caring friend. Bless you for being so caring and doing your best for helping this baby. I hope they appreciate your efforts. Friends like you don't come along often!!


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## mark1 (Jan 7, 2017)

not sure how big or how sick your tortoise is , but I've once had two hatchlings in the 30 gram range that were very sick . not eating , lethargic , dull not completely open eyes , weak , distressed open mouth breathing , and nasal mucus , I assumed a bacterial infection/pneumonia , they were obviously , at least from my experience , going to die , and most likely soon ........ I was of the opinion nothing could be done , I had nothing to lose , and they would have been hard to replace , so i took them to a exotic animal/reptile vet , I told him I doubted he could dose them , he told me they were behemoths in comparison to some he had treated ..... he treated them with injectable fortaz and subq fluids ......... I think if your vet is not capable of dosing them , at minimum he could give you subq fluids , from what I've seen subq fluids by themselves will buy an animal more time to get well , and often makes them feel well enough to start eating again ..... i think thoughts on what vets can and can't do is very much a perspective based opinion .... it is possible i just got lucky , but the vet didn't appear to me to think it was luck ......jme


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## Yvonne G (Jan 7, 2017)

I'm just so impressed with the way you've taken over the care of this baby tortoise. I used to belong to the turtle club here in town, and I must say, even the members with exotic tortoises really didn't know beans about tortoises. And raising babies? forget it.

The reason we have good information here on the Forum is because of several members who have experimented and come up with the way that works. Also, one of the more prominent tortoise people in Africa has shared his information with us - information about what baby tortoises do when they hatch out, what the weather and earth conditions are like, etc. 

Because it is illegal to breed desert tortoises and hatch their eggs, there isn't much direct information about them, but conditions in the mojave and sonoran deserts are similar to conditions in other places where baby tortoises hatch out, so we can follow the care of other species when taking care of baby desert tortoises.

I have a rescue here in Central California, and every year people turn in baby desert tortoises to me. I have experience with babies, and I can tell you first hand, if you follow the care sheet for raising baby sulcatas or baby russians, your baby desert tortoises will not only live, but will thrive. When I first read your thread, I searched the 'net for a care sheet that included hatchling care, and even care sheets written by desert tortoise experts don't have current information on raising babies.

In short, you can trust the information you are getting from Forum members. Good luck with the baby, and I hope the baby's owners listen to you when they get back.


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## Ciri (Jan 7, 2017)

TheBabySitter said:


> I met with the only "expert" I could find. She is an owner of several adult CDTs, and has 4 young ones around 5 years old. She told me not to be surprised if this hatchling dies; over the years she has had near 100 eggs and only 4 had survived. This shocked me, but also made me worry she wasn't do it right. Is this a typical mortality rate in captivity?
> 
> She advised me to change the substrate in the terrarium, its currently some sort of wood chip things in half of it (after soaking the tort she got covered all over in little splinter looking things trying to bury herself in it), the other half is small stones and pebbles (all can be seen in the pictures posted above). She told me to replace all of it with Eco Earth Coconut Fiber Substrate, at several inches deep to allow the little one to burrow.
> 
> ...


I think the fact that this individual has had only 4 out of 100 hatchlings survive speaks volumes about her capabilities and knowledge. I have cared for adult and hatchling desert tortoises, as well as adult and hatchling desert box turtles. My reptile specialist veterinarian has been able to treat respiratory infections such as the one your hatchling likely has through carefully dosed injections of antibiotics. I have not lost a hatchling yet. Not all veterinarians are equal in their knowledge and capabilities, but if you do have a reptile specialist veterinarian the hatchling will have a much better chance at survival of this infection than simply letting the infection run its course. That is obviously what this person has done with poor results. If it is not possible to get the little one to a good reptile veterinarian, then treatment does become substantially more difficult. My reptile veterinarian has saved a few turtles and tortoises who were quite ill. I feel it's always better in this type of situation to rely on someone who knows the scientific research, and is capable of the best treatment available. There is a list of reptile veterinarians on this website, not to mention the California turtle and tortoise clubs who might be able to help. The San Diego turtle and tortoise Society seems to be a very good resource. I am a member even though I don't live there since they do well at educating people on good turtle and tortoise care. If you are in Southern California they could be a good resource for veterinarians.

I would not switch to the coconut fiber substrate is my reptile veterinarian has recommended against using that. What I do is get some soil from outdoors that is not been sprayed with herbicides or pesticides for several years. I sanitize it in an oven. Short of that, a potting soil that has no perlite, bat guano, chemicals, and is organic is a good choice.

It is a good idea that you are soaking the little tortoise regularly. I don't see any harm in touching tortoises – they will need to adjust to this since they will spend their life in captivity, anyhow. The important point I always make is to wash one's hands before handling the tortoise, it's sanitized water dish , etc. With proper care they can do quite well. 

It is really wonderful that you care so much and are workng so hard to give this little tortoise the best chance for survival. It warms my heart to see this!


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## surfergirl (Jan 7, 2017)

The three things that come to mind as good signs in a chance of recovery is that the hatchling is eating, strong enough to burrow, and its eyes are still open!

You are doing great and this little one has a huge chance of recovery if you keep caring for it like Tom has recommended. Maybe the owners will let you get it back to healthy status and do their research before they take it back from you. It would be sad if they reverse all you have done for it by taking it back before they know what they are doing.


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## TheBabySitter (Jan 7, 2017)

This is the enclosure. There is a chicken wire lid for the big side, and a full cover plywood top for the small side. It's about 8" deep.

Since adding heat she is spending most of the time below the wood bridge thing, dug into the wood mulch.

There is some sort of green carpet stuff in the small compartment, and a half log shelter.

The temps have been really good the past couple days now in the big area. But the smaller compartment is only around 78. Should I obstruct access to the cooler area or is this good for her to have a retreat to an area this cool.

Recommendations on layout would be very appreciated.


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## Carol S (Jan 7, 2017)

I would get rid of the rocks and gravel. If the baby eats the gravel she can get an intestinal blockage. I would use coconut coir. I use coconut coir for my Russian hatchlings and I have been very happy with the results.


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## Yelloweyed (Jan 29, 2017)

It is good to have a cooler place to retreat to but she may be under the log bridge because it's the only thing she has to hide under. She's a baby and babies mean prey to other animals. Plants, logs, twigs and loose dirt/substrate provide protection similar to a burrow.


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