# Kelly, Tom, Dean and Neal's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments



## tortadise (Jul 21, 2012)

It seems both tom and I are currently doing a reverse experiment method in hatchling sulcatas. This year I swapped my method of keeping the hatchlings in brooder box. Which is a completely enclosed enclosure with 70+% humidity minimum, and constant soaks. Up to 4+ times a day and keeping the babies well hydrated and high humidity. I chose to try and keep raising a baby sulcata easier for a consumer, in regards to the very common enclosure of a tortoise table for a huge variety of tortoise. It seems this method of keeping these test babies in a tortoise table enclosure instead of a brooder box style enclosure. It seems to be working just fine, without all the hassel.

I kept the substrate as usual coco coir, and dampen it daily while the babies are getting their first soak in the morning.

I chose to soak them a minimum of 2-3 times a day and spray the enclosure 2-3 times a day.

The growth seems to be relatively close if not almost no comparitive differences with the brooder box method. During the past years with dry husbandry methods the growth seemed to go upwards and more dome like. Whereas the wet methods tend to grow the babies like an adult would look. Flatter more round and very smooth.

Well Lets here everyones views and methods on the Open top versus Closed brooder box or closed enclosure methods. Has anyone had similiar positive results with keeping hatchlings growing smooth without the very high humidity?


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## Tom (Jul 21, 2012)

*RE: Kelly and Toms Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

In years past I have always used open topped enclosures. Since starting the "wet" routine a few years ago, I have always struggled to maintain humidity. Its very dry where I live. I have sprayed the enclosures, added water to the substrates, humidified both the enclosures and the whole room, and tried to cover as much of the top as possible. All of this effort did get me some good results, but still not perfect. This year, I modified an old enclosure in my garage into a large closed chamber. It is 4x8x2' with a divider in the middle. I have my Sudan babies on one side, and 6 recently hatched sulcata babies from my adults on the other. These 6 holdbacks will be the subject of this thread. My routine will be identical to what it was two years ago with the "End of Pyramiding" tortoises, with the exception of a closed chamber, instead of an open topped one. They will still get daily soaks, a humid hide box, shell spraying at least 3-4 times a day, an hour or two of sunshine a day, gradually increasing the outdoor sunning time as they gain size, and Mazuri twice a week with a wide variety of other foods on the non-Mazuri days. They still have an 80 degree ambient that climbs during the day, and they still have a 100 degree basking spot, although I'm using a lower wattage bulb since its inside a closed chamber, but still a flood bulb.

Here are the babies: These three are out of Bertha and are about two weeks old. Weights are 46, 47, and 51.






These three are out of Delores and are about six weeks old now. They are 73, 80, and 81 grams.





Here is where they spend a couple hours a day. As they age and grow, I will leave them outside more and more. By the time they are 8-12 months old I usually have them outside all day, weather permitting.





This is where they spend 30-45 minutes a day.





And this is where they spend around 21-22 hours a day... and night.






Right now they are even smoother than my previous babies. Growth is excellent, and so far their weights are even closer together than previous years in the open topped enclosures. I think that in my other open topped enclosures their behavior allowed them to short circuit my attempts to keep them humid and in "African Rainy Season Burrow" conditions. Some of them would sleep inside the humid hide boxes, while others would sleep and spend their time out in the open. This caused some to pyramid more and grow slower. The ones that spent more time in the humid hide grew faster and were smoother. They were still good, but not perfect. Now I have taken their choice out of the matter, as would happen in nature, and they are always in the humidity that I am trying to simulate. Another interesting thing that I have noted in my closed chamber is that they all use the humid hides throughout the day, and they all sleep in there at night. By 6:30 or 7:00pm it is a ghost town in there. Can't even see a tortoise. In my open topped enclosures, some of them always chose to sleep out in the open.

More to follow...


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## tortadise (Jul 21, 2012)

*RE: Kelly and Toms Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

I do have to say. I do notice a difference in the methods. I think the enclosed top enclosure does pose more of a better result. However what my ultimate goal is to get through the roughest stages without major pyramiding. Mine arent as smooth as the brooder box method but my wee ones are showing a much better result than the dry method of typical daily soaks and spraying. I am also putting the oil and vita shell method to the test with a few different hatchlings with a lower amount of soaks and spraying. Its still hard to see the difference because My guys are still young the youngest being a few days old and still coming out in the plentifuls. The oldest Tank is around 4 weeks old, hes showing wonderful signs of smooth growth with the open top methods. 

I just love this sort of experiment. Tom are you going to keep onto some for a while? This year I would love to compare the growth comparisons and relative smoothness on maybe a 1 month to 1 year basis. Id love to compare the different methods with each one of our hatchlings being almost same age and under 2 totally different methods. Also get dean in on it, I know hes doing the outside method, would love to know how all 3 methods show in the latter result.


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## Tom (Jul 21, 2012)

*RE: Kelly and Toms Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

I intend to carry on for at least a few months. I'll shoot for a year.


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## tortadise (Jul 21, 2012)

*RE: Kelly and Toms Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

Typically I dont keep any back for that long. (lots of other torts here at the facility). But ive expanded and going to keep at least 8 back to raise up to adults so it will be a work in progress but I always wondered when I sent the little ones off how they turned out as adults. This year Im gonna keep some though. Maybe prove the theory a little better. And next year try half brooder and half open top method and side by side compare the results. I will get some photos of my guys shortly, Ive gotta go to BFE to get more nesting mulch for my burmese mountains.


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## DeanS (Jul 21, 2012)

*RE: Kelly and Toms Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*



tortadise said:


> Well Lets here everyones views and methods on the Open top versus Closed brooder box or closed enclosure methods. Has anyone had similiar positive results with keeping hatchlings growing smooth without the very high humidity?



Hah! I just got invited to this thread by Tom...and I just got through telling him to ask you first...as I didn't wanna trample on anyone's thread! I don't believe at all in closed top habitats of any kind...and yes, the brooder box is a habitat too!

Now...I've posted this before in my own thread...but rather than link it, I'll just reiterate here...

First thing in the morning (around 7 AM) I put them in a Rubbermaid container half full of orchard grass hay...and feed them a 50/50 mixture of moistened Mazuri/Marion...literally to the consistency of oatmeal...moist but not wet! They polish it off over the course of an hour! Then they feed on the hay a little...I've NEVER seen this from babies....but I've seen it now! After they've had their fill, they burrow into the hay...so cute! And, they're under a MVB for light and heat...it gets to be about 100!

Then about 9 AM, I put them in the kiddie pool with about a half an inch of water...in direct sunlight...and leave them for an hour.

From 10AM to 4 PM, I put them in two ZooMed Tortoise playpens (3 per playpen) on the back lawn. They can graze (and they do), or they can retreat to the built-in den...which they do plenty! Every hour, I turn the playpens so they can't stay in the dens ALL day!

From 4PM to 5PM, they go back in the pool...with fresh water...still in direct sunlight!

At 5, they go back into the Rubbermaid with hay...but I also add a variety of chop to the hay...grass, dandelions, medic, clover and mulberry leaves! I leave them to their own devices until 7PM...and yes! It turns out the same as in the AM...eat, scurry, burrow! All under a MVB!

At 7PM, I transfer them to another Rubbermaid container...with a Coconut bark/Coco coir mixture...and they settle in immediately! All under a CHE with humidity ranging from 50 to 80% and temps topping off at 80!

There is no fluctuation in pattern...this is what I do EVERYDAY! 

Pictures taken today! Weights range from 54g to 89g.


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## Tom (Jul 21, 2012)

*RE: Kelly and Toms Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

Thanks for coming on board Dean. Now everyone can watch three different ways of keeping them and see the results all in one place. I think Kelly is planning on using more than one method too, which would add to the learning.

Also, so everyone is up to speed, I also have a bunch of Sudan babies that are out of the same batch as Dean's. They are on the other side of my same divided enclosure and getting the exact same routine as the six babies out of my adults. So we will be able to compare those two groups too. As of today, my group that is related to Dean's range from 60-125 grams.


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## tortadise (Jul 21, 2012)

*RE: Kelly and Toms Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

ok heres some photos of my little guys.

First off on a somewhat side note. Check out the heads on some of them, they are orangeish red, too cool. Im wondering if mine carry a hypo gene of somesort. only about 2-3 per clutch have this right out of the egg. Anyways. I do note keeping in an open top enclosure to have at least 6" of good coco coir or eco earth substrate as the babies will burrow in it, and my theory of keeping it moist and churned up after it is sprayed will allow the hartchlings to absorb moisture through themselves being burrowed in the somewhat damp substrate. Im seeing signs of this in both batches of same smooth growth. Both the ones being sprayed numerous times a day and as well as the ones not being sprayed numerous times a day. 

A very interesting notation in relation to the different ways a hatchling can absorb and utilize moisture. Thus bringing this test of open top enclosures to a plausable housing system that can still allow smooth growth without going the extremes of high humidity and constant spraying down.

Well heres some photos of the wee ones


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## tortadise (Jul 22, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

Are those the sudanese dean? Im liking the orange in between the scutes.


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## DeanS (Jul 22, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

Yeah...they're a little more than two months right now...I saw some pix of Brad's at 4 or 5 inches...and there really is a lot of color...compared to most sulcatas.


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## Laura (Jul 22, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

do you have picture comparisons to when you did it the Old way?


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## tortadise (Jul 22, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

I believe I do. Im gonna have to try and fine the photos first.


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## Tom (Jul 23, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*



Laura said:


> do you have picture comparisons to when you did it the Old way?



I have previously posted many photos of Daisy, my juvenile, and my adults too. A search for Scooter, Bert and Delores should turn something up for you.


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## DeanS (Jul 26, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

OK! As I've already mentioned... I house mine at night in a mixture of coco coir and coconut bark. I boil it every week...and it stays moist throughout the week. A cool thing that's happened over the past few days...every night they burrow into their substrate! I keep it about eight inches thick...and they use the top two inches...I'll snap a couple of pictures tomorrow AM and post 'em. I don't remember off the top of my head if I mentioned this before...but I am not using a proper humid hide...as the entire container is one big humid hide...and remember...this is their nighttime environment!


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## tortadise (Jul 26, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

Dean. Im doing almost the same method, but not outside. I have some stones in the corners for them to hide under but no moss or anything keep higher humidity. Just 6" of coco coir always kept moist not wet but moist. They will as you have noticed with yours burrow in the first few inches. This I think along with soaking and spraying, keeps a nice moisture level for them to be hydrated in what I would think is a mini micro climate, which I think is relatively close to wild climate as well. Being in the bottom stock systems of grasslands where the soil is still humid just inches above the ground from night dew or just weeping grass or plants. I think the open top in my findings are relatively exact to the brooder box, and maybe we might not need to keep them as wet and humid as we thought. Time will tell as they get older. But so far my oldest wee ones(about 4 weeks now) are solid smooth and nice and round.


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## Neal (Jul 27, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

If it's OK, I would like to provide a bit of detail about what I am doing currently. 

Many on here know that I have, and do raise smooth tortoises without any elevated humidity and on dry substrate in open outdoor enclosures. Here are some examples:





















The pardalis have never seen elevated humidity at all, not even a humid hide (except for when it rains). Unfortunately I received them after they were a few months old, so they're not exactly perfect, but as you can see they are very close to it. 

My "dry" method is really simple and basic, and has produced some good results over the past few years with several species. They live outdoors with plenty of natural sunlight, they are provided a water dish and are soaked once or sometimes twice a day. When I soak them I splash their shells with water. The substrate in their outdoor enclosures is just plain dirt, kept dry except when I water the plants every other day or so. Compared to other keepers on the forum, my tortoises grow very slow. I still kind of have my find in the slow growth camp, but I don't think that accelerated growth is necessarily a bad thing. But, of the adults I have, some of the biggest, smoothest, and most solid tortoises I have, have been slow growers so that is why I prefer a "slower" method which of course is just a relative term.

So, I've posted here because I am trying out the high humid method again. I have tried it before, but wasn't able to keep up with it. Now that things are a bit more stable for me, I'll give it another go. Why change things when what I am doing is working? I would like to try the high humid, fast growth method to see which produces better results in terms of cosmetics, health, and consistency. My dry method works well, but isn't really consistent. I would have one tortoise that grew perfectly smooth, and one of its clutch mates would be slightly bumpy, although not as bad as you would see in a tortoise that was kept dehydrated. 

The details of my high humid method are similar to everyone else. Basically the tortoises are in an enclosed area and exposed to high levels of humidity around the clock.






Customized humidifier.






The residents.






My main concern with the high humid method is that it really isn't practical to keep them in a high humid set-up their whole lives. So at the point when they are big enough to start living outdoors, how will they handle the change? I intend to do a slow transition between indoors and outdoors and acclimating them to a new environment, but I don't know how that will effect them cosmetically or health-wise.


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## mctlong (Jul 27, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

These experiments are all so exciting! I can't wait to see how they turn out! 

Right now, I'm sticking to the outdoor, open air enclosure for my hatchling with once daily soaks in clear water and twice weekly soaks in calcium water. However, that may change depending on the results of your experiemnts! Please continue posting lots and lots of pictures! The tortoise world needs people like you doing these types of experiments!


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## Tom (Jul 27, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

OMG! You CAN'T post THAT here Neal!!!!

 JK

Love this Neal. I was going to send you a PM last night about this very subject. I've noticed small comments that indicated your style of keeping has been changing and evolving over the years. I was going to have a conversation with about the hows and whys and the results. I find the slower growth thing interesting too. I was surprised by how fast they grew when I started my "End Of Pyramiding" with all the humidity and hydration. I didn't feed them any differently than I ever have. These current babies in the closed chamber are growing even faster than those other ones on a similar diet. In fact, I am feeding more grass now, in place of more leafy greens than in the past. I expected this low nutrition food to cause them to grow a little slower, but it isn't. It seems that humidity makes them grow faster, at least in all of my enclosures. Don't know how to explain that one, but its consistent.

I am at that same transitional point with my leopards now too. I just put them outside for longer and longer until by the end of their first or second year they are outside all day every day, weather permitting. Indoors, I have been letting them get gradually dryer too.

You basically just answered all my questions. Thanks man! 

Now you realize you have to keep posting updates here to keep us all updated on their progress for the next few months at least, right?


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## DeanS (Jul 27, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*



mctlong said:


> These experiments are all so exciting! I can't wait to see how they turn out!
> 
> Right now, I'm sticking to the outdoor, open air enclosure for my hatchling with once daily soaks in clear water and twice weekly soaks in calcium water. However, that may change depending on the results of your experiemnts! Please continue posting lots and lots of pictures! The tortoise world needs people like you doing these types of experiments!



Is there a sprinkler for your outdoor enclosure? Shoot us a picture. Also, is it predator-free...i.e. crows love baby tortoises...so if you don't have a wire top...you're playing with fire.


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## Neal (Jul 27, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*



Tom said:


> Now you realize you have to keep posting updates here to keep us all updated on their progress for the next few months at least, right?



As much as I can. My participation on the forum is a bit random...but I will make a good effort on this topic.


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## mctlong (Jul 27, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*



DeanS said:


> mctlong said:
> 
> 
> > These experiments are all so exciting! I can't wait to see how they turn out!
> ...



Nope, no sprinkler, just me and my watering can. 
Fortunately, its a small enclosure for now (he'll be upgraded as he grows), so my watering can can handle it. 

It is absolutely covered, latched, and locked!!! We've got ravens, hawks, owls, raccoons, coyotes, and humans to worry about. I am taking no chances!

I posted some pics on another thread (Doc Pics) I'd prefer not to post pics here and divert from the original, very important topic of tortoise experimentation.


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## DeanS (Jul 27, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

Actually those Tortoise Houses work quite well...You can connect two together, as well! Coop is very cute...keep up the good work!

I just told Tom that Neal can join this thread...as long as he provides each of us with a custom humidifier...and Neal...I love those numbers!


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## Neal (Jul 27, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

It's basically the same idea as the Repti-fogger Dean, accept about $30 cheaper. Being a little handy and resourceful I like to do things my own way...Here it is:












Usually when I do these types of things, someone tells me It'll burn the house down or something. So copy at your own risk.


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## mctlong (Jul 27, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*



Neal said:


> It's basically the same idea as the Repti-fogger Dean, accept about $30 cheaper. Being a little handy and resourceful I like to do things my own way...Here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## DeanS (Jul 27, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

Very nice...I didn't wanna pay for the Repti-Fogger!


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## tortadise (Jul 27, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

Fantastic neal. Im beginning to think its the sole hydration method of keeping a localized hydrated carapace and plastron. I have very slow growing torts too. Well except the sulcatas. They grow fast. But everything else like you grows slow, but pays off when they reacj adulthood years later. I know I am going to try to post monthly photos to show different growth


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## MooingTricycle (Aug 1, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom Dean and Neal's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

All of this is so cool, subscribing to watch your results guys! Exciting!!


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## tortadise (Aug 3, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom Dean and Neal's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

OK just doing an update on the 3 that I posted few weeks back. The difference of 17 day ago they were left to right 3 days 2 weeks, and 3 weeks, Now they are 20 days, 4 weeks, and 6 weeks. 

3 weeker is 2 3/8"
4 weeker is 2 5/8"
6 weeker (tank) is 3 3/16"

Still growing nice and smooth. Weird how where there would be pyramiding there is black outlines.


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## Neal (Aug 4, 2012)

No noticeable difference for me yet as far as growth rates with the humid method compared to the dry method. Something I have noticed though that I like about the humid method is that the tortoises find their way out of their night time and afternoon burrows in the active morning and afternoon hours consistently. By contrast, with the dry method I would have to dig them out of their hides place them in front of their food dishes almost every time. Now, they are waiting for me everyday.


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## tyguy35 (Aug 10, 2012)

how often do you leave the fogger on. or ow long are the torts in the fog? do they have a choice of dry or damp


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## Neal (Aug 11, 2012)

tyguy35 said:


> how often do you leave the fogger on. or ow long are the torts in the fog? do they have a choice of dry or damp



The humidity is consistently 80% when the humidifier is on throughout the enclosure. When it's off, the dryer end gets about 50%, and the humid hide stays in the 80's. I keep in on from when the lights first turn on until about 12. Then it turns off until about 3 - 4. The idea is that the humidifier is on during the time periods when the tortoises are out and active and not buried in the substrate.


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## Vegasarah (Aug 11, 2012)

Has anyone ever read this website before: http://ojaisulcataproject.org/juveniles.html

This guy raises an interesting question... Because juveniles often defecate in their water, what if soaking them too much would make them not full digest their food and expel it 'early'?

I'm going to continue to soak my hatchling, but I thought it was an interesting point. My tort has a 'cool' water dish and a 'warm' water dish, and he never uses the cool one that I can tell. He always prefers the warm one, and self-soaks once a day on his own at least. And he always defecates in his water, then climbs out.

Just found it interesting.


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## DeanS (Aug 11, 2012)

Vegasarah said:


> Has anyone ever read this website before: http://ojaisulcataproject.org/juveniles.html
> 
> This guy raises an interesting question... Because juveniles often defecate in their water, what if soaking them too much would make them not full digest their food and expel it 'early'?
> 
> ...



Tom and I visited his facility late last year, and while he has had moderate success with his husbandry methods...several of his ideals are unfounded. One of his practices is that he allows his sulcatas to remain outdoors 24/7...even during the winter, when temps in Ojai can, and do, fall far below 30F. Tortoises likely spend the first year in burrows, where there is abundant moisture and humidity. However, we are raising exotic species out of their element. Therefore, we are required to fabricate an environment as to replicate their biomes. Soaking (and misting) your tortoise, in conjunction with proper diet, temps and humidity help to diminish poor health...i.e. pyramiding and MBD...and it is vital to proper captive husbandry.


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## Tom (Aug 12, 2012)

In addition to what Dean just said:
The man who made that website is named Dave. I now consider him a friend and he and I have talked tortoises quite a lot over the last few years. In a recent conversation we talked about the stuff on his website and why I disagree with some of it. He's got an open mind and even he is willing to listen and learn. He has had some conversations with some people lately that is making him rethink some of his ideas and explore new ones. None of this is set in stone and we are ALL learning as we go.

To answer your specific question about pooping to soon: That myth as well as a few others are simply hogwash.
They don't poop too soon and not digest their food.
It doesn't make them over hydrated or mess up their "water balance".
It doesn't cause any sort of ailment or problems.

If it did do any of these things, how have I raised over 200 leopard and sulcata hatchlings this way, with unprecedented success? My hatchlings all grow faster and smoother than dry dehydrated tortoises that are on the same routine otherwise, with the same amount of the same kind of food. They grow so well, because they are HEALTHY, inside and out. If they weren't digesting their food from the daily soakings, wouldn't they be undersized and growing very slowly due to a lack of nutrition? It's just the opposite.

Here's the thing: for decades people have based care for these guys based on speculation of the above ground temps and conditions in the regions where they are from for PART of the year. The dry season lasts for 8 or 9 months. During this time, they are underground, not out in the open in the hot dry air. My big question is: Why has the other 3 or 4 months of the year been completely ignored. You know, the "wet" season. THIS is when babies hatch and begin their new lives. It rains all the time. There are puddles and bodies of water every where. Marshes. It's very humid and hot, and there is green tortoise food everywhere the eye can see. THESE are the conditions baby sulcatas hatch into. NOT the 8 month dry season. People, including my friend Dave have asked, "Who soaks them every day in the wild?" He called it "unnatural" to soak them every day. My answer is, "Their Mother. Mother Nature." They live in MARSHES. There is water everywhere!!! I'm not picking on Dave. He's a great guy and I've had that same exchange with many keepers.

Anyhow, hope this sheds some light on things, and illustrates why I cringe when a new tortoise owner says, "I've been researching their care for months...". WHERE did you do your research, and what website have you been reading? It's a little scary out there, and even if I could get everyone to read what we all have here on TFO, some percentage are just not going to believe it and do the wrong things anyway. That's why I love it when people post pics of their gorgeous perfect tortoises, so everyone can see for themselves first hand what the results of hydration can be.


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## Vegasarah (Aug 12, 2012)

Oh, I totally agree with the results you guys are getting and am going to strive to do the same with my hatchling. I'm currently building my own closed chamber table and am going to continue to soak him, regardless. I just found that to be an interesting theory all in all. : D


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## Neal (Aug 17, 2012)

Well, so far the results I am seeing with the high humid method are a lot more favorable. There is without a doubt a significantly higher rate of grow with my high humid method versus my dry method. The tortoises shells are a lot more vivid and clean looking, and the tortoises are by far more active than the ones I have kept without humidity. It's still too early to tell how they will compare as far as shell smoothness, but I like what I am seeing so far.

These two I kept back, and they are mighty fine lookin' if I say so myself. 






There are other factors I would consider before reaching any conclusions. These two were incubated in the ground, whereas the other ones I am comparing these to were incubated artificially. From the moments after hatching out, I could already see a difference in activity level between them so I think that also has an effect on the results I am seeing as far as level of activity. I guess the next test would be to put tortoises that were artificially incubated in the high humid set up.


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## wellington (Aug 17, 2012)

They are very fine looking.


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## tortadise (Aug 22, 2012)

Well heres a almost 3 month old "her" name is tankette (hatch date;6-3-12) and "her" little brother, which is 2 days old. So far still growing smoothly,still very good results in the open top method.

Tankette is 3 7/8" long at 11 weeks 3 days old
her brother is 2 3/16" long at 2 days old


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## Tom (Sep 2, 2012)

Update: These are my six in the same tub as the first pics.






The smaller, younger three are weighing in at 85, 86 and 95 grams at 7 weeks old.





The larger older group are 124, 125, and 145 grams at 11 weeks old.





These guys all live together, but I find it interesting that each trio has a runaway grower. Same thing happens every time I do a trio. It will be interesting to watch how this progresses as they age.

Nothing new to report really. Everything is going as it should. They eat everything I put in front of them. They are active and inquisitive. They are noticeably smoother than previous babies from open topped enclosures. The growth lines are also coming in much more uniform, concentric and even. I can't see how they could be any smoother.


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## Turtulas-Len (Sep 2, 2012)

I have been following this thread with great interest, I tried the humid method,3 sulcatas and 1 leopard tortoise and got pyramiding in all 4, so last year I decided to go back to 1996 (with a few tweaks) and try and reproduce some of the ways I raised Walker, he has some pyramiding not but not near as bad as I was getting with the wet method recently.These 4 were not recent newborn hatchlings(from 4 weeks to a couple months) so some slight pyramiding was noticeable when I got them, but was unable to stop it using the wet method. On may 31, I received a newborn hatchling and using my old method it has grown smooth and is 3 5/16 inches and 151 grams at 14 weeks old.I believe one of the most important things was getting one right out of the egg. Basically my old method is as much outside time as possible in growing grass that is at least as tall as the tortoise, grass holds moisture naturally so it works the same as a humid hide. When he comes in for the night he is put in a small tank given 2 pieces of moistened mazuri in a milk bottle top and a variety of weeds and leaves picked just before he is brought in.There is no overhead heat just heat from below his clay flowerpot hide that absorbs moisture from the soil and I spray it once after he goes to sleep for the night.His outside enclosure has a large glazed saucer for him to soak in and different weeds and grass to graze on. I soak him twice a week before putting him in the tank.I took some pics today, if you want I will post some.


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## Tom (Sep 2, 2012)

I would love to see pics Len. You are the first person I've heard for whom the wet method didn't work. I'd love to know exactly what you were doing to try to figure out why it did not work for you. I've often referred to MY wet routine as the shotgun approach. I hit them with everything all the time. I have not yet tried to determine which single element has the greatest effect on its own yet. Understanding what you have done differently might help us gain insight into which element of the "wet" routine really has the greatest effect. Neal has told me in the past that he thinks that it might be more about hydration and humidity is secondary or even not important at all. Recently a friend confirmed the opposite of what Neal believes when he told me his super smooth leopards were raised with no water bowl, once a week soaks, but in a very warm humid room and with constantly damp substrate in a tall sided glass tank, and a humid hide. Oh what a mystery....

So Len,
For your failed attempts:
What substrate? 
How damp?
Ambient humidity percentage?
How often did you soak?
How often did you spray the shell?
Humid hide box?
Ambient temp, both day and night?
Basking temp?
Incandescent bulb in a dome?

From your post it sounds like you were trying top stop pyramiding in progress. I have found this to be EXPONENTIALLY harder than preventing pyramiding in the first place. I have done it successfully many times now, but sometimes it takes months to see even the slightest improvement.

Any insight here is welcomed and appreciated.


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## Turtulas-Len (Sep 3, 2012)

Here are some pics taken yesterday,I can't answer all your questions correctly without looking for my notes,but the substrate was my own mix of 4 to 5 inches of mulched organic materials consisting mostly of leaves and twigs that had composted undisturbed for at least 3 years, most of is was 4 and 5 year old compost, with a layer of cypress mulch on top. This mix holds moisture better than anything I have tried,and doesn't get funky with time.The humidity level was high enough to keep the glass walls wet away from the basking lights, but I don't remember the exact number.The basking lights and the che were their favorite places to hang out, this is where I thought the problems were, their shells dried out on top so quick even with all the humidity around them, but with it so wet it had to be kept very warm, which increased their activity and food intake,it seemed to become a viscous circle of constantly checking temps and humidity levels, spraying and soaking with poor results. The hides were made of aged treated decking boards 5 1/4 x 6 which would always be wet near the bottom and the torts would dig down while inside,but they never dug down outside them.


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## tortadise (Sep 3, 2012)

Looks great len.


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## Tom (Sep 3, 2012)

Len said:


> Here are some pics taken yesterday,I can't answer all your questions correctly without looking for my notes,but the substrate was my own mix of 4 to 5 inches of mulched organic materials consisting mostly of leaves and twigs that had composted undisturbed for at least 3 years, most of is was 4 and 5 year old compost, with a layer of cypress mulch on top. This mix holds moisture better than anything I have tried,and doesn't get funky with time.The humidity level was high enough to keep the glass walls wet away from the basking lights, but I don't remember the exact number.The basking lights and the che were their favorite places to hang out, this is where I thought the problems were, their shells dried out on top so quick even with all the humidity around them, but with it so wet it had to be kept very warm, which increased their activity and food intake,it seemed to become a viscous circle of constantly checking temps and humidity levels, spraying and soaking with poor results. The hides were made of aged treated decking boards 5 1/4 x 6 which would always be wet near the bottom and the torts would dig down while inside,but they never dug down outside them.



What was your ambient temp typically at? The drying effect of the artificial lights is definitely a contributing factor here. This is a problem I encountered in my open topped enclosure especially. I have observed, and several other experienced keepers have also told me, that if they are kept at lower ambient temps, they use the basking lamps more. I keep my ambient at no lower than 80, but it creeps up to the low 90's during the day. At these temps, I find they don't use the basking lamps a whole lot. A little in the morning and maybe a little after a big meal, but other than that they tend to stay out from under the hot spots.

I think my next big project will be to figure out some alternative heating for baby sulcatas, in lieu of overhead hot bulbs... Thanks for the inspiration Len.


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## tortadise (Sep 3, 2012)

I have tried different methods of heat before it works pretty well. They are heating cables used for plants in greenhouses to heat the soil. The only issue is I had to bury them 6" or more. So the soil has to be deep. It works great too with the moisture in the soil increasing the humidity on the surface level.


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## Neal (Sep 3, 2012)

Tom said:


> Recently a friend confirmed the opposite of what Neal believes when he told me his super smooth leopards were raised with no water bowl, once a week soaks, but in a very warm humid room and with constantly damp substrate in a tall sided glass tank, and a humid hide. Oh what a mystery....



Mystery indeed, this certainly mixes things up. As mentioned before on post #16, all of the leopards pictured there had never been exposed to elevated humidity, they spent there whole lives (until this summer with all the rain) in single digit humidity.


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## Turtulas-Len (Sep 3, 2012)

I don't remember the exact temps but I do know the plastron temps were above 80 while the carapace temps were higher,I worried about them getting cold with all the moisture so I would check the plastron temps more than the carapace, I now use bottom heat more and found that with a warmer(not hot) soil it is easier to control the moisture and ambient air temps. Against what some people think, I found it is easier for me to make my own underground heating system and warming areas using self regulating heat tape cut to size and wattage for the individual tortoise and enclosure. Making them with this material no thermostat is required or necessary to keep a constant substrate tempature anywhere in the enclosure.


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## Tom (Sep 3, 2012)

Len, How often did you soak the ones that were pyramiding?

Neal, those leopards are with one of my mentors and they are out of the 2010 Gpp group. Next time I'm out there I'll get picks and weights and post it. When he told me what he was doing I was a bit surprised, but he says they are smooth. I have learned that some of the old timers version of "smooth" is a little different than mine. But given the direction you were going and what you were finding, I was still a little surprised. However his findings do line up with the 2003 Austrian study on sulcatas.


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## Turtulas-Len (Sep 3, 2012)

I had a pyrex pie pan in the enclosure that was positioned so that they had to go in it to get to one of the basking areas,and back through it to get back to the hide and food dish, so basically they got soaked daily,I even tried placing a food dish in the center of a pie pan of water on an upside down dish to keep it above the water so they had to go in the water to eat, That didn't work out very well though.


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## DeanS (Sep 3, 2012)

Not to break up this interesting turn of events...but I thought I'd chime in with some changes of my own. My guys were growing very slowly using the method I started them out with. Really, I've only changed one aspect...or two...but they're BIG! First, I abandoned the Tortoise Playpens...and now let them run the yard...they love it and have adapted very well...even interacting with the larger animals, all of which are very gentle with them. The other change is that I keep them in the kiddie pool for 2 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the afternoon. I keep it on even ground with about 1/2" of water...and given the extreme temps up here...the pool is always half in the sun, half in the shade. This is the technique I used to stop the pyramiding in my earlier animals two years ago! It's working great on these guys.

Oh yeah! Another change...there are only 5 babies now instead of the original six. Unfortunately, Pineapple succumbed to the so-called '3% infant mortality rule'...RIP Pineapple.

So here are the others in order of size! With the exception of Climber II, nobody has been named. They are just over three months old now!

The largest is 3.75" and weighs 160g...







The second largest is 3.25" and weighs 125g...






Climber II is the third largest at 3.25" and 116g...






The second smallest is 3" and weighs 96g...






The smallest (my daughter calls her KIKU) is now the runt...and has been steadily losing weight. She eats and eliminates fine. She may be intimidated by her (much) larger siblings. I'm going to isolate her in the next day or so! She is 2.75" and weighs 63g. She was 70g last week!


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## LestatHIM (Sep 27, 2012)

This is an amazing thread!

I can't wait to see the results!

Tom, you mentioned you're looking for an alternative method for heating. I just figured out tonight that I can keep the temperatures/ humidity up in a closed enclosure using under the tank heat pads that are designed for keeping snakes. The heat rises through the glass an evaporates what ever moisture is in the hide directly above it. (This is with glass though and wouldn't work with wood or anything of the such.) You could also always trying to use Flexwatt heat tape too. Rig it up in such a way that you even put it under the substrate and cover it with some type of thin water resistant covering and let the heat rise through the substrate. You could hook it up to a thermostat and regulate the temperature of it as well if you'd like. I have developed racks for snakes using this method and it has been quite effective. 

Just some ideas off the top of my head.

Keep up the great work guys! Babies are looking good!


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## tortadise (Sep 28, 2012)

LestatHIM said:


> This is an amazing thread!
> 
> I can't wait to see the results!
> 
> ...



These are excellent methods to utilize. If you place rocks about 1" in size at the bottom with a 3-4" depth and fill it with water and place weed mat or egg crate on top of the rocks then put your mulch on top of it, this will sky rocket the humidity and keep the substrate dry and will also warm the substrate. its a method I use for terrariums and dart frogs.


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## lovelyrosepetal (Oct 21, 2012)

I am wondering if you have anything new to add to your findings and if you have anymore pictures to post? I find these experiments to be very educational and fascinating I hope to learn more!


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## DeanS (Oct 21, 2012)

I see I posted last about a month-and-a-half ago. Ironically, my three largest have put on about 15g apiece...and my two samllest are hovering in the same range as noted above. And they all look about the same as the shots above! I'm going to Tom's tomorrow...so I can see the difference between ours.


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## tortadise (Oct 21, 2012)

Yeah I need to snap some photos and guess get some weights on em. I know mine are getting to be little tanks.


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## Neal (Oct 21, 2012)

Not much new on my end. The tortoises started off growing quicker than the ones raised my usual way, but now they have slowed down. I don't expect to have anything conclusive for about a year. 

They do, however, remain slightly more active throughout the day than the others I have raised.


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## DeanS (Oct 21, 2012)

Tom needs to get on the ball here...becuase his Sudans are growing quickly! His largest are almost 100g heavier than my largest!


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## LuckysGirl007 (Oct 21, 2012)

Oh, WOW!


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## DeanS (Oct 22, 2012)

Just got back from Tom's and all I can say is WOW!

1) His largest Sudans are twice the size of my largest!

2) His holdbacks look really good...even though he claims they're not smooth smooth

3) The Wild Bunch are AWESOME! Sure, they maybe a tad small but they are all blonde...or slight variations of blonde at least! But they are all VERY light!

And with Summer-like days dwindling, I'm abandoning my keep 'em out all day theory...and they'll spend the Winter and Spring in a closed chamber. Given that they're ONLY three years old, I'm gonna implement this for Climber and Jamie, as well!


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## Carlos83 (Oct 22, 2012)

I've read SOOOOOO many articles on how to keep sulcatas.And so far tom's theory on the hole humidity makes sense I keep mine nice and humid if its ok I like to share some process pics on mine considering he almost died from being kept TO DRY .....


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## Tom (Oct 22, 2012)

Carlos83 said:


> I've read SOOOOOO many articles on how to keep sulcatas.And so far tom's theory on the hole humidity makes sense I keep mine nice and humid if its ok I like to share some process pics on mine considering he almost died from being kept TO DRY .....



I'd love to see a new thread on this Carlos. Always looking for new info.


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## Carlos83 (Oct 22, 2012)

Tom said:


> Carlos83 said:
> 
> 
> > I've read SOOOOOO many articles on how to keep sulcatas.And so far tom's theory on the hole humidity makes sense I keep mine nice and humid if its ok I like to share some process pics on mine considering he almost died from being kept TO DRY .....
> ...


ok let me gather some pictures up . .


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## Tom (Oct 24, 2012)

Update:
Here are some pics and weights from today. I am liking the results so far.
From smallest to largest, and remember there are two groups of three. Each group is from a different clutch. The last three pics are of the first hatched clutch, so they are a little older, and not surprisingly, bigger.

Weighing in at 154 grams is #6:






Weighing in at 159 grams is #5:





Weighing in at 170 is #4:





Now from the older group, #3 weighed in at 208 grams:





At 228, #2:





And finally, #1 weighed in at 265:






I tried to do close ups and really show the plastron profile and scute margins. The closed chamber system seems to agree with them. Comments and questions welcome.


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## Carlos83 (Oct 24, 2012)

Wow just beautiful great job bro


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## Neal (Oct 24, 2012)

Tom - I find it interesting that the coloration of their carapace is almost exactly identical to the ones you have raised before from your own adults. Granted, they're all sulcatas and aren't going to vary all too much like with leopards...yet there is some variation in how dark or light their brown shells are between others I have seen from different genetic lines. 

I don't think I could tell these ones apart from the other ones you raised.

As has been mildly discussed before, it is assumed by some that (speaking about leopards specifically) the environment that it is raised in greatly influences shell color and pattern. I wonder if something like that is at play here with yours or if I'm just tired and making things up after a rough day at work...


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## l0velesly (Oct 24, 2012)

Amazing.. love their vivid coloring!!


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## LuckysGirl007 (Oct 24, 2012)

Neal said:


> Tom - I find it interesting that the coloration of their carapace is almost exactly identical to the ones you have raised before from your own adults. Granted, they're all sulcatas and aren't going to vary all too much like with leopards...yet there is some variation in how dark or light their brown shells are between others I have seen from different genetic lines.
> 
> I don't think I could tell these ones apart from the other ones you raised.
> 
> As has been mildly discussed before, it is assumed by some that (speaking about leopards specifically) the environment that it is raised in greatly influences shell color and pattern. I wonder if something like that is at play here with yours or if I'm just tired and making things up after a rough day at work...



Hmm...that's an interesting thought!

Tom, they are beautiful!!


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## Eweezyfosheezy (Oct 24, 2012)

Tom doesnt it just seem weird to you to see smooth baby tortoises nowadays? It just doesnt even seem natural to me, because I have seen so many pyramided tortoises in my life. Hopefully one of these days smooth torts will be the norm.

Although I am a backer of the hot, humid, and hydrated method I'm actually pleased to say I have a group of perfectly smooth sulcata babies that are raised in 20% or below humidity at all times besides their 30 minute soaking everyday in the sun. They have been kept outside everyday 24/7, once their yolk sacks completely healed.


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## Tom (Oct 24, 2012)

Neal said:


> Tom - I find it interesting that the coloration of their carapace is almost exactly identical to the ones you have raised before from your own adults. Granted, they're all sulcatas and aren't going to vary all too much like with leopards...yet there is some variation in how dark or light their brown shells are between others I have seen from different genetic lines.
> 
> I don't think I could tell these ones apart from the other ones you raised.
> 
> As has been mildly discussed before, it is assumed by some that (speaking about leopards specifically) the environment that it is raised in greatly influences shell color and pattern. I wonder if something like that is at play here with yours or if I'm just tired and making things up after a rough day at work...




These are also out of my same adults as the EOP ones. The three older ones are the same mother and father as Tulee, Tuck and Trey. The three younger ones are the same father, but different mother.

I do think environment has an influence on their coloration, but I cannot conclusively say exactly what causes what.


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## Neal (Oct 24, 2012)

Oh...well that makes sense. I thought these were your Sudanese.


Just looked at your Sudan thread and they do look exactly like these ones.

I might be odd, but I think it's interesting.


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## Tom (Oct 24, 2012)

Eweezyfosheezy said:


> Tom doesnt it just seem weird to you to see smooth baby tortoises nowadays? It just doesnt even seem natural to me, because I have seen so many pyramided tortoises in my life. Hopefully one of these days smooth torts will be the norm.
> 
> Although I am a backer of the hot, humid, and hydrated method I'm actually pleased to say I have a group of perfectly smooth sulcata babies that are raised in 20% or below humidity at all times besides their 30 minute soaking everyday in the sun. They have been kept outside everyday 24/7, once their yolk sacks completely healed.



I'm doing something similar with my wild bunch. They stay outside all day every day, weather permitting, but the they come in and get soaked and sleep in their humid enclosure over night. Mine are also growing smooth, but not as smooth as these, and not nearly as fast. They are a little on the small side for their age, but they eat everything in sight. They also look quite a bit different than these. I'll update their thread soon.

After nearly three years on this forum, I must say that I'm getting used to seeing smooth tortoises. Bit this just makes it all the more soul crushing to go to pet shops or reptile shows and see the "norm" that still exists outside of this forum.


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## sibi (Oct 24, 2012)

*RE: Kelly, Tom and Dean's Sulcata Husbandry Method Experiments*

You made me a believer, Tom!



Tom said:


> In addition to what Dean just said:
> The man who made that website is named Dave. I now consider him a friend and he and I have talked tortoises quite a lot over the last few years. In a recent conversation we talked about the stuff on his website and why I disagree with some of it. He's got an open mind and even he is willing to listen and learn. He has had some conversations with some people lately that is making him rethink some of his ideas and explore new ones. None of this is set in stone and we are ALL learning as we go.
> 
> To answer your specific question about pooping to soon: That myth as well as a few others are simply hogwash.
> ...


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## lovelyrosepetal (Oct 24, 2012)

Hey Tom, I really like this thread, it is very informative and makes me really think about how to raise a sulcata tortoise. I have adopted your closed chamber, to the best of my ability and I am very pleased with the results. I find it very interesting about your wild bunch and wondered if you were able to make any guesses about which one might have laid this bunch? You say they are a lot lighter, I wonder if that is because of the substrate being natural dirt, grasses and what not or if it is because of all the natural sunlight without any of the hot lights above them. Just a thought and wondered what your opinion is? Great job and I love how everything is looking.


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## Neal (Nov 27, 2012)

Update on my leo's.

I'm surprised. I expected these two to grow a lot faster than my other tortoises that only had the humid hide, but these are growing at almost the same rate. The only difference I have noted so far is the different behavior. As mentioned before, these two are significantly more active during the day, and will eat everything in sight. The majority of my other tortoises have been very timid and picky eaters, and will only be active in the morning and evenings. 

While they are not growing faster, they do have a more solid feel to them. Their shells firmed up a lot faster than my previous hatchlings as well. Overall, I am much more pleased raising them this way.


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## AZtortMom (Nov 27, 2012)

Beautiful babies!


I do have add, since I started doing the wet method, my babies have grown quite a bit and smoothed out a lot!


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## Kapidolo Farms (Nov 28, 2012)

I want to understand why you are doing these experiments.

The big picture is a no pyramid tortoise?

It seems there are other underlying results sought for better understanding of the nature of hatchlings too.

It's not just smooth growth, but rapid smooth growth, as demonstrated by size and weight gain, over time with no pyramiding? Is this an attempt to meet the 4" rule?

I ask as I have seen, backyard sulcata that had no pyramiding to speak of, not bowling ball smooth, but OK, and they grew seasonally for the two years left to their own pattern of eat, drink, sleep and rest, in a smallish backyard in Fresno. After two years they were still very small, but healthy animals. The owner sorta just let nature takes its course, by virtue of not keeping track of hatchlings he was selling. The two year estimate is based on the years after he sold the adults.

As I read this thread, I see what would appear to be an interest in a captive climate that would keep the hatchlings in that ideal range of parameters for continual growth for maybe the first few years, not the annual stops an starts growth I would imagine happens in the wild?

I understand that within the areas that any species live in the wild, some populations might have a much longer growth period per year (based on some in-situ studies this is true for sulcata and leopards) than others. I would further speculate that these animals if kept this way for several years (15 to 20) they would become giant giants.

Is at least part of the experiment dedicated to maintaining that "sweet" zone of quality growth for an extended period, to a certain age or size?

Will


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## tortadise (Nov 28, 2012)

I started this rhread with tom with the intent on different methods to obtain a single same result. to get enthusiests and tortoise owners a good option of many to grow their sulcata without going down the pyramided route and unhealthy tortoise routine. It seems my methods play more a role than you stated about stopping and starting. But mine do end up being giants though.


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## Neal (Nov 28, 2012)

Will said:


> I want to understand why you are doing these experiments.
> 
> The big picture is a no pyramid tortoise?
> 
> ...



Will, you have it right. The big picture is a no pyramided tortoises. My involvement here is to develop a husbandry method that produces smooth tortoises consistently, whereas my previous method has failed to do so.

I brought up the growth rates in my post as a side note...I suppose you could say that this is an underlying result being sought after. At least for my part. Though, I am not targeting any portion of my "experiment" towards encouraging rapid growth rates. I only bring up growth rates for comparability. From what we have seen on the forum, the hot and humid methods seem to yield faster growing tortoises. Historically, my methods have always yielded slow growth rates (as compared to other captive bred specimens). These slow growing tortoises do end up being full sized adults. In fact, one of my slowest growers is now my largest adult.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Nov 28, 2012)

I see better. My wonderment, if you will tolerate that. Is based on some of the daily elaborate procedures, best narrated by DeanS. Say we call the result of a few months to half a year of these intensive care regimes 'headstarting'. I would suggest that very few people will follow that protocol if they got a non-headstarted young tortoises at a Repticon. The pet shop would be where the 4 inch law comes in, hence maybe 'these sulcata headstarter with the "DeanS" protocol' on the cage at PetSmart. Otherwise how does this translate to most people buying a sulcata?

It seems a high humidity 'cage' and a commercial diet is a more palatable route for the hundreds of potential people in the future of the sulcata as a a pet.

Look at aquatic turtles. I am pretty darn sure that very very few people collect, propagate, or otherwise feed a diet to their aquatics based on the very well know natural histories of north American emydids, they feed a "chow" of some sort. Maybe use a filter, or do water changes, or some combo.

This gets me back to asking what is the purpose of the experiment? The "Austrian" study measured growth by a 'hump' index against two variables, humidity and protein. Hump being an indicator of pyramiding.

So as the purpose is to " get enthusiasts and tortoise owners a good option of many to grow their sulcata without going down the pyramided route and unhealthy tortoise routine" I would think easy do-ability might play a role.

Aside from the hands-off care, of letting a tortoise exists in a backyard, like Brits had been so famous for with a 'garden' tortoise, do you all think a further development of this purpose might be a commercial diet, and a few standard enclosure types for sub-adults, that before it's let loose into your yard period of ownership?

Will


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## Tom (Nov 29, 2012)

Good questions usual Will.

Kelly, Dean, Neal and I are all friends. We each have some years of tortoise keeping under our belts and share a mutual respect. Rather than argue about the merits of one method or another, we all decided to just do it our own way and publicly demonstrate the results for every one to see. Seemed sort of fun and novel to have it all on one thread so people could compare and contrast the methods and results and decide what they feel would be the best way to go for their individual situation.

I find your observation of the potential complexity of these care regimes spot on. I realized how "complex" my methods were when I had to leave town and explain all the details to my tortoise babysitter. Another friend is working on "mass" producing a good size starter enclosure that is pre-wired and easy to set up. It will be a closed chamber. Humidity levels will be easy to maintain, ambient temp will be controlled by a thermostat and basking bulb controlled by a timer. Then all a person has to do is soak daily for the first few months and keep the water bowl clean. A bit oversimplified I know, but that about as simple as I can get it, and still get the results that I want to see.

On another note... About the fast growth, outdoor housing, and backyard style of raising tortoises: it has never been my intention to grow them fast. If you had read all 542 pages of my EOP thread, you would know this.(Ha! Kidding.) The faster than normal growth that I have experienced with the new warm, humid and hydrated methods, is an unexpected side effect, and I find it to be an indicator of good health. I don't feed them any more or any differently than I ever have. It seems to me that the health drived from being well hydrated and kept in the correct conditions allows them to thrive vs. merely survive as mine used to do under my old keeping standards. I too have seen the small sulcatas raised out loose in a backyard. Mine appear to be much more vigorous and healthy to me in comparison to the ones I have seen. Further, some people find my new methods to be "un-natural". Given what I have been told, and what I have studied on my own, the conditions that I am providing are as close as I can imagine to what a hatchling sulcata would experience in the wild since they hatch and spend their first few months in the rainy season. Hot, humid, food everywhere, lots of cover, rain is frequent, conditions are marshy and puddles for drinking and soaking abound. THIS, in my estimation, is what a baby sulcata needs. The dry, barren conditions with the dry foods and dry substrate that most people (not on this forum) are still keeping them in, is what is "un-natural". The cold temps that are experienced in most of North America are not natural for sulcatas. As Tomas phrases it, they have two seasons over there: Hot and Hotter. They go underground to escape the heat. Of course underground it's warm and humid... I don't find anything "natural" about raising a baby sulcata in a Southern CA backyard. The temps and humidity are all wrong and it does not surprise me that they grow very slowly. I don't find that natural or healthy. By contrast, I find the conditions that I create inside my closed chambers to be very natural and as close as I can get to what they really experience over there in the wild. My positive results with growth, health and smoothness are an affirmation that I am right about this. The stunted, pyramided, lethargic ones that I have seen raised in backyards here convince me that what "seems" "natural" to so many people, isn't.


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## Katherine (Nov 29, 2012)

Just read this entirrrre thread. Very interesting, thank you all who have taken the time to share their methods. Makes me very grateful I do not live in the desert


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## Tom (Nov 29, 2012)

Katherine said:


> Just read this entirrrre thread. Very interesting, thank you all who have taken the time to share their methods. Makes me very grateful I do not live in the desert



The desert works great for housing juveniles and adults, with some proper heated shelters, of course, but your area sure must make it easier to raise hatchlings... 

I've gotta say though, I am not at all unhappy with the regime I've worked out. Indoors in a 4x8 with daily sunning trips for the first year or two and then outside to the great outdoors full time after that with a heated underground shelter.


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## filbertjonathan (Nov 30, 2012)

This is an amazing thread. I have read one by one the contain of this thread.
I mix all the method in this thread to get the most suitable condition in my country, Indonesia.
The ambient temp here around 30 in the middle of the day, and the worst around 23.
I have shared this forum to indonesian tortoise forum and indonesian tortoise facebook group. ( i always put the link )
I got many reaction after i post it, and most of the reaction is not good. They don't agree about this concept. I don't want to make it become debatable, especially about humidity and how often they soak their tortoise. They are afraid their torto attak by flu ( runny nose syndrome), so i let them to apply their method. They said torto will get enough water from their food, and so on.
But after a few day, they would post to facebook and asked why their tortoise stop eating and then i asked about he temp and humidity, how aften they soak, and so pathetic some of them don't know the humidity and some of them give very low humidity, and they kill their tortoise by dehydration.
Anyway, i just give illustration above.
But, FOR ME, i applied your method above.
I set my tortoise table ( 120x80x40 cm). I use three kind of lamps, basking 50 watt, uvb , and infrared.
I use coco peat for substrate, i pour boiled water 2 times a month.
I maintain the basking temp 34 c, around basking 30-31 c, and the dark side for sleep 27-30 (use infrared).
The humidity 60-80, i spray the substrate include the tortoise maybe around 6 times a day depend on the weather and humidity. (my wife do it when i am working, coz she loves tortoises so much, called them our children).
I sunbathe hem everyday intense basking start fro 07.00-08.30 depend on the sun intensity. After that i soak them with warm water around 30C for 30 minutes, under the sun, and then i let them roam in my garden,feeding them there under morning sun until 10.30. I feed them by recommended vegetables, grass, hibicus, and cactus, give them cuttle bone mix with supplement three times a week. After that i put hem in tortoise table. I repeat the morning treatment in the evening. 
And the result i never get RNS problem doing this method, my tortoise grow quickly then before, increase their appetite. I can avoid pyramiding, because some of my tortoise i bought has been pyramiding. I don't know about pyramiding in the first. And here, here is an opinion for some people about pyramiding.they said pyramiding will make their tortoise looked more solid. And after i read many references, i know that is not good for tortoise. I don't know whether i can stop it or not, but i think it can, i just try to make the pyramiding grow slower and smoother. 
And that is my experience, a big thank you and appreciate i give to Tom and the others.

Here some pic of my tortoises.

My biggest sulcata





One of my leopard





Time to sunbath





Tortoise tale set up


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## mattgrizzlybear (Dec 1, 2012)

Glad it is working out it is always nice to take a change for once


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## Tom (Dec 1, 2012)

fj, the myths your countrymen are repeating to you are the same ones we have here. The old books all say to keep them dry. They are just plain wrong.

The best thing you can do is show them by example. When their tortoise pyramid more and more, and yours all start smoothing out and thriving, then they will have no choice but to admit that it works and their old method does not.

On your enclosure, you can get even better results if you start using a proper humid hide over on the warm side with the infrared. Also, it looks like you are using on of those coil bulbs for UV. Those can damage their eyes and if your tortoises are getting regular sunshine, you shouldn't need any indoor UV.

Good luck my Indonesian ambassador friend.


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## filbertjonathan (Dec 1, 2012)

Tom said:


> fj, the myths your countrymen are repeating to you are the same ones we have here. The old books all say to keep them dry. They are just plain wrong.
> 
> The best thing you can do is show them by example. When their tortoise pyramid more and more, and yours all start smoothing out and thriving, then they will have no choice but to admit that it works and their old method does not.
> 
> ...



Thank you Tom for the suggestion and advice, i will have some modifications again. I use vivaria uvb 10.0 26 watt, is the lamp harmful for tortoise eyes? I use the lamp only when the rainy day. Do you have any idea what kind of lamp should i use?

Once again thank you.


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## DeanS (Dec 1, 2012)

filbertjonathan said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > fj, the myths your countrymen are repeating to you are the same ones we have here. The old books all say to keep them dry. They are just plain wrong.
> ...



Arguably, the BEST lamp for indoor husbandry is the Zoo Med Powersun. It is reasonable to use only a basking bulb if your tortoises can get at least 2 hours of direct sunlight daily.




Katherine said:


> Just read this entirrrre thread. Very interesting, thank you all who have taken the time to share their methods. Makes me very grateful I do not live in the desert



I love the desert (from Spring through Fall). I can't stand the winters here. Louisiana humidity would prove very beneficial to the little ones for those first few years, I'm sure!


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## filbertjonathan (Dec 1, 2012)

DeanS said:


> Arguably, the BEST lamp for indoor husbandry is the Zoo Med Powersun. It is reasonable to use only a basking bulb if your tortoises can get at least 2 hours of direct sunlight daily.
> 
> 
> 
> I love the desert (from Spring through Fall). I can't stand the winters here. Louisiana humidity would prove very beneficial to the little ones for those first few years, I'm sure!





Okay deans i got the point, and lucky me now i got many information about uvb lamp, and i will stop using it, start from tomorrow.


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## Tom (Dec 1, 2012)

fj, since your UV needs are met in the best way possible, REAL sunshine, you do not need ANY UV bulbs indoors. You can just use regular incandescent flood bulbs for some basking spots when they are indoors. My preference is to use low wattage bulbs, usually around 65 watts, and adjust the height of the fixture to get the temp just right. If you need more light, you can use the long florescent tubes.


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## DeanS (Dec 1, 2012)

Just a quick update here! I have not been happy with the growth of my Sudans...especially since Tom's are more than twice the size of mine! I adjusted my set-up...and growth has improved dramatically!

three days after adjusting diet and humidity...

169g - 180g
144g - 171g
132g - 172g 
84g - 99g
61g - 61g 

Also, for those of you following the Snowflake saga...a year ago, she was 3.75" and 130g. Now, she's 4.25" and 167g.


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## lovelyrosepetal (Dec 1, 2012)

What have you adjusted your diet and humidity to? My regular sulcatas look so small next to Tom's of approximately the same age and maybe if I adjust they will have results similar to yours. That and I don't want to make his smaller.


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## Yellow Turtle (Dec 2, 2012)

filbertjonathan said:


> DeanS said:
> 
> 
> > Arguably, the BEST lamp for indoor husbandry is the Zoo Med Powersun. It is reasonable to use only a basking bulb if your tortoises can get at least 2 hours of direct sunlight daily.
> ...





ZooMed brand is not available in Indonesia. We only get Exoterra and Vivaria. Luckily we have plenty of sun light here. 




filbertjonathan said:


> This is an amazing thread. I have read one by one the contain of this thread.
> I mix all the method in this thread to get the most suitable condition in my country, Indonesia.
> The ambient temp here around 30 in the middle of the day, and the worst around 23.
> I have shared this forum to indonesian tortoise forum and indonesian tortoise facebook group. ( i always put the link )
> ...



FJ, I think Tom's closed enclosure humidity exceeds yours and your enclosure seems to be more open to me compares to him. I also hope to know the result of this being conducted in our country. Hope you can get another truly un-pyramided hatchling to try this method and see the growth rate. Good luck


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## filbertjonathan (Dec 3, 2012)

Yellow Turtle said:


> ZooMed brand is not available in Indonesia. We only get Exoterra and Vivaria. Luckily we have plenty of sun light here.
> 
> 
> 
> FJ, I think Tom's closed enclosure humidity exceeds yours and your enclosure seems to be more open to me compares to him. I also hope to know the result of this being conducted in our country. Hope you can get another truly un-pyramided hatchling to try this method and see the growth rate. Good luck





Hhehehehe i try my to get un-pyramided hatchling.
And as you said we are lucky getting more sunshine in here. But raining season is coming now especially in Borneo.
I have made a modification to keep my tortoise warm enough with only use one lamp, i have tried it 3 days in the rainy day. And i got a good result.





I called it semi greenhouse. I can keep the humidity 70 and temp 28-30 c in their sleeping place.


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## Yellow Turtle (Dec 3, 2012)

filbertjonathan said:


> Yellow Turtle said:
> 
> 
> > ZooMed brand is not available in Indonesia. We only get Exoterra and Vivaria. Luckily we have plenty of sun light here.
> ...





I think you should shoot for 80-90% humidity if want to follow Tom's method. Well good luck again, I'm interested to know the result too


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## filbertjonathan (Dec 3, 2012)

Yellow Turtle said:


> I think you should shoot for 80-90% humidity if want to follow Tom's method. Well good luck again, I'm interested to know the result too



In their hiding place (made by plastic chair the humid 80-90) the temp 29 -30.

But i have questions maybe someone here can explain me.
1. I made 4 conditions. The condition under the basking the lamp in rainy evening around 34-35 humid around 60. I put hiding cave there. I use intense basking exoterra, and it means the condition is so bright . But WHY my tortoises prefer sleep under the basking lamp or near the lamp to the place which i have set for their sleep condition (humid,temp and there is no light) Should i be worry when they sleep around basking lamp which the temp is high enough, although i have put water bowl there?


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## Neal (Dec 3, 2012)

What are you using to measure the temperatures?

The first thing that comes to mind when they spend most of their time near the basking spot is that they are too cool everywhere else.


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## filbertjonathan (Dec 3, 2012)

Neal said:


> What are you using to measure the temperatures?
> 
> The first thing that comes to mind when they spend most of their time near the basking spot is that they are too cool everywhere else.



I use 5 thermo and hygrometer. Each thermometer show the same degree. I think my torto paranoid in the dark hehehhehe


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## tortadise (Dec 22, 2012)

Well heres somewhat of a half update on mine I kept back. I kept the runts,split scutes, and the largest out of 118 babies that hatched last year from my huge female mimi. These guys are at 5 months old from hatch out. They really are showing fantastic blonde and very light coloration. In the past I notice the coloration being a lot darker than these in my methods used. I did not weigh them. But the biggest one (tank) is 4 1/2" and peanut (the runt) is still hangin around 3 1/4". Looking good so far on all my guys I kept back.


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