# Tort was "free to great home" SHOULDÃ¢â‚¬â„¢VE been "TERRIBLE OWNERS. NEEDS RESCUING" PICS



## loogielv (Feb 2, 2009)

Someone was offering a Russian Tortoise (Horsfield Tortoise) for free to a good home. Let me start at the beginning.

*The Advert: *
Below is an exact copy of the advert of this Russian Tortoise.

_*Russian Tortoise Good health*

Hi there i am re homing my russian tortoise. i will be very sad to
have to see him go the truth of the matter is I just had to move into
a smaller home and have dogs and birds that will be much more
traumatized if rehomed so I have chosen for the turtle to go. He is
now kept indoors I kept him in a cool environment one summer and the
heat was still to much for him. Right now I feed him organic leafy
matter (from costco) never iceberg lettuce and hardly ever romaine it
is just not as nutritional enough. I also feed him frozen mixed
veggies (run under water to take the chill off) No fruit except maybe
a bite once a month it is not good for them! He will come with his
home which is a glass terrarium that is approx 2.5X2.5 and about 8-9
inches deep. I change his substrate about once per month and he does
NOT STINK. He is a nice pet and will walk around outside on the floor
etc. The weather just has to be right because he does not like cold or
hot. I would like for him to go to a home with tortoise experience. *I
am in NO HURRY his well being is of most concern.* If you would like to
give my tortoise a new home please send your info and a little bit
about yourself, what his new environment will be and how you will care
for him. *Again his well being is most important in my decision of
letting him go to a new home.*

<snip>

***Below is some IMPORTANT Information to know before you email me****

Russian Tortoises are grazers and enjoy broad leaf plants. The best
diet is a variety of weeds (leaves and flowers). Dandelion is a
favorite. For detailed diet information:http://www.russiantortoise.org
Water:_

The person then went on to copy most of the diet and housing information from russiantortoise.org. Seems pretty good right? Seems like only the well being of the tortoise is concern #1 yes? Seems like this person has done some research and truly cared whether they were giving the tortoise the best possible life huh? 
I responded to the advert and after some email "interviews" was selected to receive this tortoise. 2 days later, I met the "caregivers".

*The Pickup: *
I could've punched the people in the temple with a screw driver I was so mad when I seen him. It was truly pitiful. I knew he was in an undersized tank from the original advert. I also knew the tank was glass, which as we know is a no-no, but still, it's not unheard of in the casual pet keeper world.
What I didn't know was that he only had about a half inch of dirty, dingy, dusty, crumbled bark as substrate. It was so shallow that when he walked, his feet were basically resting on the glass. He had one Tupperware bin for water, and one old lid for a food dish.












Can you spot the tort?




Hard to see him with all that camouflage isn't it? He was so caked in dirt and "bark mud" that it took me a second to find him. I shouldn't be so harsh on the owners though. He wasn't totally covered in dirt. He was also covered in his own feces a lot.  Simply awful.











His poop was easily a half inch thick on the bottom of his shell. I couldn't even listen to his breathing without gagging from the smell. 

He had rubbed his nails on his front feet down to nubs trying to get a grip on the glass.




(blurry, but there's better ones later)

He had developed a real talent for getting grip by scooting backwards across the tank instead of walking like an actual tortoise.  
I'm so mad as I type this, I can't even see straight. Don't misunderstand, I'm not mad because I got swindled into taking a poorly kept tort, I'm mad because these people pretended to care about this animal. I would've respected them more if they said "we're dirtbags and have been neglecting this creature for months. Please help him" NO such luck. If the previous owners are reading this, I hope you come back as a turtle in the worst pet store in the world. You should honestly be ashamed of yourself. 

Moving on.

*The transition: *

I quickly gave him a bath in a 5 gal bucket. I normally would've let him use the bath, but I knew I'd have to change the water a few times during this bath.









Notice how his butt is up against the side of the bucket? That's because when I put him in, he used his talent and scooted backwards. He was very active, but extremely grumpy and skittish. I don't blame him one bit.

A pretty bad shot of his back feet. He didn't rub the nails down on those, it appears as though he rubbed his toes completely off. Except one long one. 




Better pics later.

I took the bath time to dump his crap bark out and filled his tank with 60% topsoil and 40% play sand. I'm going to continue using this tank for the winter, and then it's an outside pen in the nice Las Vegas weather until it gets too hot.

I also covered the sides of the glass with felt to block the view out. He quickly decided he didn't like it. 




I ended up hot gluing the felt up. He agreed that it's tolerable. 






*The Health: *
You can see some serious stuff happening on his shell. I really want some insight on the condition of his shell if anyone can offer it. 
A shot showing his rubbed down front nails. Also you can see some of the chipping on the shell.










Here you can see his one toe. It looks like theres 2 in this pic, but the upper toe is really just the top of his foot. There's only 1 to be seen on each back foot





More of the same.









A shot showing some of the chipping on his shell and his one toe is really visible on the bottom foot.






I put a little cardboard box in the corner as a home for him, but he decided the best view is from the roof.




The red is just the color of the box.

The white spots are obviously a concern. but from close inspection, I really get the feeling it's from an old incidident with a dog, or some old flaking. I'm quite sure there was no UVB for this guy and that probably has something to do with it too.
I think I'll let the pictures do the talking for me.























































The back feet





His new setup






"Get the hell out of my way house. I'm taking a nap right there, and you're in my damn way!"















Tons more pics, but mostly of the same thing if anyone is interested at http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b372/loogielv/Russian Tort/

The vet is on the schedule this week, but please offer any advice. I purchased some Vita shell and he's received two treatments already.

Also, he hasn't eaten in the 3 days I've had him. He sleeps A TON (from about 2pm until about 8am the next morning) but he is extremely active when he's awake. Crashing and banging all over the place. Takes his own baths, and apparently relocates his living quarters  

I sure do like this guy (or girl I guess. hrmm) and I only want the best for him!


----------



## Karyn (Feb 2, 2009)

Thank goodness you found him! He's looking better already. There are more experienced people on the forum who can give you great advice. (I'm very new to tortoises.) I don't think, though, that you are supposed to put Vita shell on his shell.

Great job saving him!
Karyn


----------



## Kristina (Feb 2, 2009)

I disagree with using Vitashell or any other product that goes on the shell, for the most part. He needs some first aid treatment, but regularly treating the shell with rubbed on products is a no-no IMHO.

The flaking areas look like burns. It is right down to the bone, poor baby. 

I am sure that Yvonne or Danny will have some good ideas on what to do for the shell. Poor little kid, I can't believe someone would let him get in that condition.

Kristina


----------



## TKCARDANDCOIN (Feb 2, 2009)

It looks like a dog used this poor tort for a chew toy IMHO.I think you did the right thing by cleaning her up and applying a rub of vitashell on her.It will moisturize her shell and condition it also.I would continue warm water soaks and change up her diet to some dark leafy greens(looks like you already have) and get a uvb bulb on her for atleast 8 hours a day.She is one lucky tortoise to have such a Kind Person take her in!Thanks and good luck.


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Feb 2, 2009)

*RE: Tort was "free to great home" SHOULDÃ¢â‚¬â„¢VE been "TERRIBLE OWNERS. NEEDS RESCUING" PI*

Vitashell is NOT good for the tortoise, please stop using it. The spots look like old shell rot, so they will stay looking like that.
I would get rid of the felt and take a sheet of newspaper and put it on the outside of the tank so he can't see out. Russians are really weirded out about soaking so it might be better for the tort if you just put a soaking pool inside the tank and let the tort chose to soak or not. 
I'd get some Spring Mix from the produce section and feed that. Grated zucchini is something they can't resist. My Russian loves cooked squash, so why don't you get some squash one that's orange or red inside. I don't know the different names, Acorn would be one. Anyway cook some squash (10 minutes in the microwave) and I'll bet he can't refuse that. Clean substrate would be nice and make it damp. I'd try a plant pot for a hide, altho mine also has a cardboard box for a hide and sometimes she gets inside and most times she buries herself behind it. Keep a light on him for about 12-13 hours so he doesn't try to hibernate.
Welcome to the group. Do you have a reptile Vet where you are? If you don't let us know and we will find one close to you...good luck and keep us posted.


----------



## Yvonne G (Feb 2, 2009)

I think you were right in your "dog chewed" assessment. The white spots on the shell and probably the missing toes are from old chews. I don't advocate using any shell dressing. It invites dirt and might cause overheating. I know you took a lot of time setting up his habitat, but my advice would be to put the felt on the OUTSIDE of the tank, that way he can't get it all messed up. You can even use newspaper or any kind of paper, but put it outside the tank. The advert suggested that the tortoise didn't like it too hot or too cold, and I'm sure you know that that is wrong. They have to have a nice hot spot where they can warm up. Its probably warm enough in your house at night for no habitat heat, but during the day he should have a light to warm him up. Since you brought his "home" with him, there shouldn't be any acclimation time required. Far as he's concerned, he's still in the same place he's been. So not eating is a bit of a worry. Russians (and yours is a boy, by the way) are good eaters. You might have to feed him what he's used to eating, but I'd warm up the frozen veggies a bit more than just running them under the faucet. Then you gradually introduce more variety, bit by bit.

I'm glad, for the tortoise's sake, that you were the one who was "selected" to take him home. Good job!!

Yvonne

Oh, and WELCOME TO THE FORUM! We're very glad to have you here.


----------



## Crazy1 (Feb 2, 2009)

Hi loogielv, Welcome to the forum. I too think someone used it as a chew toy from the markings on the shell especially the long thin lines on the top of the Carapace look like they may be tooth marks. And Yes that may be why the missing toes.
I agree with Maggie and Yvonne. Vita shell has oils and waxes and you don't want to cover his/her shell with any of that, its a magnet for dirt, etc. Just keep it clean for now. Newspaper on the outside, or you can tape the felt outside the enclosure. If an enclosure is too small the tort will pace and claw the walls, be it glass or wood and wear down its nails to the nubs and then some. Especially a square enclosure, use things that break up the walls like hides, logs, things he must crawl around but not cause him to flip over, may help. His/her nails may never grow back and his shell will always look damaged but it can heal. Sounds as if this little guy/girl has had a hard life for a while. I know it probably does not need to be said but I will anyway. If you use a UVB bulb do not have anything between it like screen or glass as it will stop the UVB rays from entering the area. Looks like this little one has now fallen into good hands. Someone who will truly care for it. Good Luck with him/her keep us posted on him.


----------



## loogielv (Feb 2, 2009)

thanks so much for all the kind replies everyone.

I'm using a mercury vapor bulb so the uvb is taken care of, as well as the basking spot. The spot gets to about 92degrees and the probably 96 to the top of his shell, so should be good on that end too.

As far as getting him frozen veggies, what would you recommend? carrots is the only thing I can think of that he should have. peas and broccoli and any other frozen veggie is usually a no no, but maybe just to jump start the eating?

the Vitashell is put on before his daily bath (every 2 days actually). I let it dry out, then wash it all off and then he takes his bath and I can honestly say the difference after using it is night and day. The shell just has a look of revitalization. I know majority of you have recommended against it, but please do some research on it and then let me know. There's a few videos on youtube about it and many people have been using it for even active shell rot and it's helping. 

He's very active otherwise, wakes up, goes to his basking spot, sticks his head out nice and far and chills until it's time to redecorate. 

He also has a soaking dish in his house that gets changed daily.


----------



## Crazy1 (Feb 2, 2009)

loogielv, I have done some research on this product, unless you use soap oils and wax will not wash off with just water, and even my vet (tort and exotic vet) recommends against it. It may make it look nice but he said the best is just a cleaning and if needed antibiotic ointment. But He is your tort you do what you feel is best for him. that is just my opinion. I am glad he seems to be doing better. I would try the frozen carrots and mix them with leafy greens hopefully he will start eating well for you soon.


----------



## Yvonne G (Feb 2, 2009)

From your original post, I had the impression that he was being fed the frozen mixed vegetables. That is a mixture of green beans, lima beans, carrots and corn. This is NOT the best diet for a tortoise, but if its what he is used to seeing as "food" that's what you need to feed him. I would chop up some escarole (or any of the "good" greens) really small and mix it in with the thawed/frozen mixed vegetables. After about a week, mix in a bit more, and keep increasing this over time until you have eliminated the veggies altogether.

Yvonne


----------



## tortoisenerd (Feb 2, 2009)

Best wishes; you've already got some great advice.

I'd also say no to Vita Shell, and I've done a lot of research on the subject.


----------



## Redfootedboxturtles (Feb 3, 2009)

I didnt read any of the replys. Ive seen worse, your russian should be fine. That white part will never grow back to look like the rest of the shell. Maybe in years. Feed your russian Hibiscus leaves if you can get them. Buy a plant at lowes and plant it in your yard. Free food, pretty plant and your tort will love them.


----------



## Laura (Feb 4, 2009)

Education is the key.. That is why groups like this are SO valuable!!!! There is no excuse these days for not knowing or not being able to find the correct info. 
Squash is one of my russians faves. Zucchini. Green or yellow. dice it up and give it a try. Also..the purple leaves in the Spring Mix is what he goes for first. 
Good luck with him. He is very lucky.


----------



## loogielv (Feb 5, 2009)

hey all, i'm sorry i wasn't getting emails saying there were replies. figured i'd check on the off chance...

Ok, i'll start some more research on the vitashell. I really gotta say, his shell just seems a whole lot better afterwards for a day or so. I'm not even considering shine or anything like that. you know when you rub lotion on, and several hours later you notice your skin is smooth and just feels healthier. thats the way this feels. he's only gotten 3 treatments and I try my best to wash and rub it all off. I try to let it dry fully and it seems to come right off when it's washed after that. if it's a little wet, then i need to wash a bit more to clean it up.

anyway, i'll spend the better part of tomorrow researching it.

a few quick updates. After 3 days of no eating, (not only did he not eat, he would just mow over his salad, never even pausing to smell or anything) I put 3 small pieces of banana in there. No more than 20 seconds later he was chowing down.
So the next day, smart me, I had a plan. a nice green salad. (collard and mustard greens, kale, parsley, timothy hay, zoomed grassland mix. calcium/d3 supplement. and then i mashed about 1/10 of a banana and smeared it over the top and slightly middle of the pile. And the little turd picked all the bananas out! 
So i figured oh well, he'll eat when he's ready. This morning i just threw in the green stuff w/ some calcium/d3 and let him alone and came home to a clean rock!
He also has done his biz in the bath a few times and drank tons of water tonight when he took one. Things are really looking up. I'll keep him in this little tank for another month or so and then it's either a table top, or an outside pen. The outside pen in Las Vegas sun would be great until 40c beams down!


----------



## tortoisenerd (Feb 5, 2009)

Hi there! Glad you've stopped with the banana because that's not the best idea. Also, I like how you have him eating good greens, but I'd watch the types more closely. The collards parsley and mustard greens are high in oxalic acid, and although they are good nutrition sources, they should not be the bulk of the diet as the oxalic acid can bind the calcium. The kale is another green to feed in smaller quantities as it can cause goiter as well as it has the oxalic acid. A great alternative is spring mix--for the money, you get about the best you can get when feeding one tort. Lots of variety, and no chopping required.

http://russiantortoise.org/oxalates.pdf
http://www.russiantortoise.org/russiantortoisediet.htm
http://www.geocities.com/kyryah/tort2.html
http://www.turtlestuff.com/avoidthese.html
http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/nutrientanalysis.htm

My personal opinion. I think what you've done for the tort is really great though. Sometimes the lists of "safe" foods for torts can be a little misleading because they don't tell you in what quantities.


----------



## nrfitchett4 (Feb 6, 2009)

considering spring mix is mostly different kind of lettuce, I disagree that it is "better" for your tort that mixed greens. yes your getting more oxalic acid, but also a lot more calcium.
I didn't know that collards were high in oxalates. Never heard that, considering it is the green of choice for igs.


----------



## Meg90 (Feb 6, 2009)

Just making an observation, nrfitchett4, but after seeing your recent posts, it seems as if you like to argue alot. I find myself bristling at the language you are using in each one of your posts. I don't know if this is intentional or not, but it always seems to me like you are gearing up for an argument.

That being said, spring mix IS good for tortoises. I don't know how long you have had yours, but every experienced tortoise owner has recommended it to me as a staple, along with other various greens and weeds added to the diet as well. (as well as various veggies and a minimal amount of fruit)

I also do not know why you continue to compare tortoises to iguanas. They are two completely different animals. As far as I am concerned, it is like comparing goats to house dogs. There is no point.


----------



## Millerlite (Feb 6, 2009)

Spring mix is good, it has variety in it. I always used spring mix, and of course i gave them grasses, and variety outside the mix, variety is the key to tortoises, they become a pain when they only eat one thing, lol.


----------



## nrfitchett4 (Feb 6, 2009)

Meg90 said:


> Just making an observation, nrfitchett4, but after seeing your recent posts, it seems as if you like to argue alot. I find myself bristling at the language you are using in each one of your posts. I don't know if this is intentional or not, but it always seems to me like you are gearing up for an argument.
> 
> That being said, spring mix IS good for tortoises. I don't know how long you have had yours, but every experienced tortoise owner has recommended it to me as a staple, along with other various greens and weeds added to the diet as well. (as well as various veggies and a minimal amount of fruit)
> 
> I also do not know why you continue to compare tortoises to iguanas. They are two completely different animals. As far as I am concerned, it is like comparing goats to house dogs. There is no point.



explain to me the bad language that I have used. 
Actually, torts and igs have a lot of the same environmental and dietary needs. While I won't say I'm an expert in anything. I do know that most lettuces have very little nutritional value as well as a high water content and low fiber. All of which are opposite of what sulcatas eat in the wild. I'm not saying that spring mix is completely evil, just that it is not the healthiest thing. How much spinach is a tort supposed to have?

By the way, I'm not the one pm messaging people. Everything I have to say, I say in the open. And you never responded when I answered your pm.


----------



## Meg90 (Feb 6, 2009)

Ahem. Look at your response. Swearing isn't necessary for bad language. I also said it SEEMED like you were. A simple "no, I am not trying to start anything" would have sufficed, but you took that and went on the attack instead.

There is no spinach in the Organic Spring Mix I buy. You can chose brands that do not have in it the mix.

If you fed your tortoise on an iguana diet, you would cause it harm. Too much sugar.


----------



## dmmj (Feb 6, 2009)

as the carertaker of 3 rescued russians I have seen some bad damage to some shells, but those spots on his/her shell is pretty bad, could be from his previous home could be animal abuse. dog and racoons come to mind. living in california I am able to grow all my food for my torts, I feed mine a wide variety of leaves and flowers. If he is used to veggie mix he may have just decided to eat that and nothing else start mixing in other good turtle food for him so he can get used to it. the foods I use for mine are hibiscus flowers(they do not like the leaves for some reason) grape leaves, radish tops not the vegetable just the tops. dandelions when I can find them lol , artichoke leaves, some nice cactus pieces, and lots lots more. I am currently trying to find a native california foothill lotus that is a wildgrowing weed that desert tortoises like. They are plentiful in san diego so I may go out ther one day and see if I can find some. anyways if you have any questions there ar elots of knowledgeable peopel here who can answer them, BTW I was saddened to ee the poor guys living condition. Did they have a light for him? I did not see one but you never know. anyways kudos for rescuing him and here is to many many good years for him. they are resilient little guys and can bounce back from some pretty harsh conditions.


----------



## tortoisenerd (Feb 6, 2009)

I was just trying to say that although those are great greens, feeding them all together isn't the best idea. I know with too much oxalic acid it can bind up to all the calcium, outweighing the benefits. It's difficult to know what that amount will be...thus not feeding those all together is recommended.

We're talking about a russian tortoise not a Sulcata here as well. Different dietary requirements even between tortoise species.


----------



## nrfitchett4 (Feb 6, 2009)

Meg90 said:


> Ahem. Look at your response. Swearing isn't necessary for bad language. I also said it SEEMED like you were. A simple "no, I am not trying to start anything" would have sufficed, but you took that and went on the attack instead.
> 
> There is no spinach in the Organic Spring Mix I buy. You can chose brands that do not have in it the mix.
> 
> If you fed your tortoise on an iguana diet, you would cause it harm. Too much sugar.



considering you've also pm'd me about another member, I do take offense. All I said was that lettuce is not a good tortoise staple. Lettuce is the main ingredient in spring mix. How hard is that to understand.
I understand that in the winter you have to make due with what is a available. After much research I am going to try the mazuri mixed with greens and ground up hay and see what happens till shelly gets big enough to run the back yard.
my iguana diet has very little sugar. Collards or mustards is the main staple with squash green beans and parsnip. very little mango or papaya. I never said I would feed my tort that. Just that the dietary requirements are more similar than you think.



tortoisenerd said:


> I was just trying to say that although those are great greens, feeding them all together isn't the best idea. I know with too much oxalic acid it can bind up to all the calcium, outweighing the benefits. It's difficult to know what that amount will be...thus not feeding those all together is recommended.
> 
> We're talking about a russian tortoise not a Sulcata here as well. Different dietary requirements even between tortoise species.



I apologize. I was not trying to hijack the thread.


----------



## galvinkaos (Feb 6, 2009)

Meg90 said:


> There is no spinach in the Organic Spring Mix I buy. You can chose brands that do not have in it the mix.



Just to let you know meg, I bought a "prepackage organic spring mix" which did not have spinach in the ingredients list but I found spinach in it. So look close at the leaves. I work at some of the food processing plants and mistakes can happen.

Dawna


----------



## Meg90 (Feb 7, 2009)

Thanks Dawna! I always keep an eye out, and I work at a restaurant where we use SM and spinach (seperatley) so i can spot the difference a mile off!  
Just for fun, I googled my brand of springmix, and a really great website came up! The two links provided show a picture of every lettuce in the mix. I buy alternating for freshness (as in, the date on the package--which ever one is newer) mixed baby greens, and fresh herb salad.

In mixed baby greens there is: Arugula, Frisee, Green Chard, Green Oak, Green Romaine, Lollo Rosa, Mizuna, Radichio, Red Chard, Red Oak, Red Romaine and Tango.

In fresh herb salad there is: Arugula, Cilantro, Dill Frisee, Green Chard, Green Oak, Green Romaine, Lollo Rosa, Mizuna, Parsley, Radicchio, Red Chard, Red Oak, Red Romaine and Tango.

Mixed Baby Greens

Fresh Herb Salad

Oh, I forgot to mention. I get mine at walmart for 3.28$ for a five ounce plastic "clamshell" container.


----------



## galvinkaos (Feb 7, 2009)

The last one I bought had more red romaine than anything. Maybe 3 quarter size pieces of radicchio, very little tango, frisee or arugula. I also have recently bought "fresh express" italian mix an it went bad 3 days before the exp date. I called and they sent me a free coupon for the largest size to replace it and $ off coupns too. So good customer service. I use a salad spinner to clean and store and have found it lasts a few weeks past exp date usually. I vary between which pre packaged mix and the open bin organic spring mix I buy depending on what looks the best/freshest. I have volunteers of leaf lettuce sprouting where last years garden was growing I pull once or twice aweek (or when they eat everything fater than I expected) and the garden area has a nice variety of weeds sprouting this winter - dandelions, clover, etc. So variety is not an issue.

I love the links. I sometimes wonder "which one is that"?

Dawna

Hey after looking at the pics, the last batch had mizuna and lollo rosa. which were not on the ingredients.

Dawna


----------



## loogielv (Feb 7, 2009)

tortoisenerd said:


> Hi there! Glad you've stopped with the banana because that's not the best idea. Also, I like how you have him eating good greens, but I'd watch the types more closely. The collards parsley and mustard greens are high in oxalic acid, and although they are good nutrition sources, they should not be the bulk of the diet as the oxalic acid can bind the calcium. The kale is another green to feed in smaller quantities as it can cause goiter as well as it has the oxalic acid. A great alternative is spring mix--for the money, you get about the best you can get when feeding one tort. Lots of variety, and no chopping required.
> 
> http://russiantortoise.org/oxalates.pdf
> http://www.russiantortoise.org/russiantortoisediet.htm
> ...





*thank you so much. I did tons of research and i knew that mustard greens were somewhat acceptable. more so than spinache, but i didn't see anything about the collard green (or especially the kale) being anything but perfect. I guess it goes to show that torts really need their weeds. I can't wait til I start a garden. (just to grow weeds. lol my grandma would kill me) Hopefully next month so I can do the best diet possible.
*
*I heard turnip greens were awesome for them. Any thoughts there? Also, parsley is good cuz it's high in calcium? I heard that briefly on a youtube video that i can't find again. since you obviously are quite knowledgeable in the subject, I'll pick your brain some, if you wont mind?*


*edit: i replied before i see that there's a bit of a debate going on. I'll read through, but I still stand by as grateful for the info and would love for you to answer my above questions. thanks again*





dmmj said:


> as the carertaker of 3 rescued russians I have seen some bad damage to some shells, but those spots on his/her shell is pretty bad, could be from his previous home could be animal abuse. dog and racoons come to mind. living in california I am able to grow all my food for my torts, I feed mine a wide variety of leaves and flowers. If he is used to veggie mix he may have just decided to eat that and nothing else start mixing in other good turtle food for him so he can get used to it. the foods I use for mine are hibiscus flowers(they do not like the leaves for some reason) grape leaves, radish tops not the vegetable just the tops. dandelions when I can find them lol , artichoke leaves, some nice cactus pieces, and lots lots more. I am currently trying to find a native california foothill lotus that is a wildgrowing weed that desert tortoises like. They are plentiful in san diego so I may go out ther one day and see if I can find some. anyways if you have any questions there ar elots of knowledgeable peopel here who can answer them, BTW I was saddened to ee the poor guys living condition. Did they have a light for him? I did not see one but you never know. anyways kudos for rescuing him and here is to many many good years for him. they are resilient little guys and can bounce back from some pretty harsh conditions.



*thanks for the input. I never even thought of artichoke leaves. Are there any risks, or concerns w/ artichoke leaves for torts? 

as far as his prior lighting, it was just an incandescent light bulb.  no uv, nothing.*





tortoisenerd said:


> I was just trying to say that although those are great greens, feeding them all together isn't the best idea. I know with too much oxalic acid it can bind up to all the calcium, outweighing the benefits. It's difficult to know what that amount will be...thus not feeding those all together is recommended.
> 
> We're talking about a russian tortoise not a Sulcata here as well. Different dietary requirements even between tortoise species.



*i hope everyone doesn't mind, i'm going to reply to each post one by one as I read. even if it's answered later in the thread, it's still good to create questions that future newbs might have. 

anyway, if you were forced to store buy for a russian tort, what would your entire month of diet be like? I say month, because I assume you would change up the diet every week. If you'd stick with one for the whole month or longer, that's fine too. I'm really curious and I'll be store buying for at least another month 

As far as this spring mix I keep hearing about, I've never heard of it. I'm from the states, is it sold here? at any grocery store? any other info on it?*




galvinkaos said:


> Meg90 said:
> 
> 
> > There is no spinach in the Organic Spring Mix I buy. You can chose brands that do not have in it the mix.
> ...



*it is my understanding that spinach isnt terrible for the tort if it's used about as much as fruit. pretty rarely. If a spinach leaf makes its way into a bag, I wouldn't think it would be a problem at all. Am I right there?*



Meg90 said:


> Mixed Baby Greens
> 
> Fresh Herb Salad
> 
> Oh, I forgot to mention. I get mine at walmart for 3.28$ for a five ounce plastic "clamshell" container.



*I dont believe it! we shop at walmart and I've never seen this. Is it near the salad packages? (the plastic bags with precut and prewashed salads?)*


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Feb 7, 2009)

*RE: Tort was "free to great home" SHOULDÃ¢â‚¬â„¢VE been "TERRIBLE OWNERS. NEEDS RESCUING" PI*

I think sometimes we 'over think' the care of our tortoises. I have fed Spring Mix for several years and raised healthy tortoises on it. My sister who has been involved in turtle and tortoise rescue for over 30 years also uses Spring Mix. I use it as the basis of the tort salad and add other beneficial greens to it. Spring Mix by itself probably wouldn't be nutritious enough to raise a healthy tortoise on but I add other stuff to it. I don't pick out the spinach leaves, in fact for this latest salad mix I added spinach to it. I also added watercress, collards, mustard, dandelions, red leaf, green leaf , endive etc. The key to a good tortoise diet is variety. I don't make the same tort salad from one mix to another. I add as much different stuff as I can so every salad that I make is different. When we read that certain greens are too high in oxalic acid for instance, that means it wouldn't be good to feed ONLY that. But add those greens to the Spring Mix and other greens and it makes a great tortoise salad. Variety is the key!


----------



## Yvonne G (Feb 7, 2009)

Meg90 said:


> Oh, I forgot to mention. I get mine at walmart for 3.28$ for a five ounce plastic "clamshell" container.



This is great to know. My store sells the 1lb. clam shell for $5 something and I can get the same thing at Costco for $3 something...but I HATE going to Costco. I'll try Wal-mart and see what it sells there for. Never thought to check out the price on Wal-mart's veggies.

Yvonne


----------



## galvinkaos (Feb 7, 2009)

thanks for the input. I never even thought of artichoke leaves. Are there any risks, or concerns w/ artichoke leaves for torts? 

I use the newer sprouts from the plant. Not as tough. 


As far as this spring mix I keep hearing about, I've never heard of it. I'm from the states, is it sold here? at any grocery store? any other info on it?


I have 3 different grocery stores I go to depending on the circumstances and the prewashed and prepackaged spring mix or other salads are in better shape than the open bin spring mix. My DT are little still so I buy a week at a time and change each time what I buy. I also add 'volunteer' lettuce that is sprouting where last years garden was and the assorted yard weeds, artichoke leaves, etc. to vary it daily. They always start with the red/purple and eat light green last. Funny huh.

it is my understanding that spinach isnt terrible for the tort if it's used about as much as fruit. pretty rarely. If a spinach leaf makes its way into a bag, I wouldn't think it would be a problem at all. Am I right there?


I don't pick it out unless there is a huge amount, but I try not to intentionally buy if it is a listed ingredient.

I dont believe it! we shop at walmart and I've never seen this. Is it near the salad packages? (the plastic bags with precut and prewashed salads?)


Yep, near the salad stuff. The Albertson's I go to sells prewashed/precut collard greens and curly mustard. but the bags are too big for the little ones. I just grab a small bunch once in a while. 

Dawna


----------



## tortoisenerd (Feb 7, 2009)

If this might be helpful, here's a sample of what I've fed my tort in the last month, where numbers 1-3 are all the time, and the others I have had a few in the house at a time. I go to several stores and browse for what is the best for my money--ie. stuff that is either cheaper or sold by the pound, and nutritious.

1. spring mix, organic, mostly the stuff sold by the pound at the organic grocer near me because it is very fresh, a lot of variety (I think they mix types together), and I can buy a small amount
2. alternating types of lettuce we keep in the house for sandwiches, such as green leaf and escarole (I only feed the leafiest tops)
3. russian tortoise mix I grow from seeds from carolinapetsupply.com (list available there)
4. radish greens
5. mallow
6. organic micro greens from Trader Joes (all sorts of baby veggie leaves)
7. organic dandelion greens
8. prickly pear cactus pad
9. carrot greens (he didn't like these so I tossed them)

I can get most of the greens to last close to 2 weeks if I wash and then dry them, and store them in tupperwares with paper towels on top and bottom to absorb moisture. Take out any rotting leaves immediately.


----------



## Laura (Feb 8, 2009)

When people say Lettuce isn't good for torts, that is empty and only has fiber and water.. they are talking about Iceberg lettuce. Not the good dark green baby leafy stuff in Spring mix and so many others these days. Spring Mix is AWSOME and it is widely available at all grocery good stores. 
At Walmart, the Super stores with grocery section.. i have found that the salads etc are often near the exp date or kept too cold and froze.. then it goes bad quicker. so check the date and look of the leaves before you buy.
If you buy too much for yout tort.. EAT IT yourself! Buying a month at a time might not work due to shelf life.


----------



## nrfitchett4 (Feb 8, 2009)

I always reach for the stuff at the back. But I use HEB because they have a field mix that doesn't have spinach, just romaine, radiochio, endive, frise and very few carrots.

sorry, not trying to be argumentative, but romaine has very little nutritional value:
http://nutrition.about.com/od/fruitsandvegetables/p/romaine.htm
8 whole calories in 47 grams of lettuce. my tort would have to eat his body weight just to get the 8 calories.


----------



## tortoisenerd (Feb 8, 2009)

I go the stores that are more expensive but have the fresher and higher quality stuff. With one tort I can afford to spoil him.


----------



## nrfitchett4 (Feb 8, 2009)

I just received a bag of mazuri off of ebay. soaked it and cut it up, but so far two days in, shelly won't touch it. 
Guess I'll keep trying. That is why I bought the little bag on ebay instead of the 25lb monster bag.
Anyone know if you have to refridgerate/freeze the stuff?
Next I'll be ordering some seeds online to grow some home grass for her to try.


----------



## loogielv (Feb 9, 2009)

*RE: Tort was "free to great home" SHOULDÃ¢â‚¬â„¢VE been "TERRIBLE OWNERS. NEEDS RESCUING" PI*



maggie3fan said:


> *I think sometimes we 'over think' the care of our tortoises.*



I just made this exact point on another forum. Of course you followed it up with better examples than i did. 



tortoisenerd said:


> If this might be helpful, here's a sample of what I've fed my tort in the last month, where numbers 1-3 are all the time, and the others I have had a few in the house at a time. I go to several stores and browse for what is the best for my money--ie. stuff that is either cheaper or sold by the pound, and nutritious.
> 
> 1. spring mix, organic, mostly the stuff sold by the pound at the organic grocer near me because it is very fresh, a lot of variety (I think they mix types together), and I can buy a small amount
> 2. alternating types of lettuce we keep in the house for sandwiches, such as green leaf and escarole (I only feed the leafiest tops)
> ...



HOly cow! 2 weeks!?! god I feel retarded now. I usually get all my greens, chop em up and mix em into a giant ziplock bad and throw em back in the crisper and then just take out the daily salad amount, add my timothy hay and other goodies. But the ziplock bag filled with collard, mustard, parsley, turnip greens etc etc goes bad in under a week. 

I will admit, I wash em, chop em, mix em, and put em in the ziplock bag wet. guess I'd get longer life if I wash, chop em, mix em and then dry them and add a paper towel or 2? 


btw, thank you for the diet plan, i shall assimilate it next trip to the market!

I just want to reply to all thank you so much for chiming in on this. I know the thread was about my new found baby boy, but I feel all the dietary advice and follow up is essential for not only me, but any newbie that happens upon this thread.
it is CONSTANTLY my goal to provide a "one hitter quitter" of a thread that contains enough information that any newbie who happens to find it (via google most likely) will see many key words and points to start his/her research in the proper direction.

I didn't understand that torts need uvb or even d3 until I was days into my research. I just happened to see in a thread somewhere the words d3 and uvb, and i wondered what the heck it meant. I googled them, followed a click or 2 and opened up a whole new world of ignorance. It's hard to search for something you do not know that you do not know. 

Thank you all, and please keep this thread alive with any other information. I plan to keep it going quit reguarly.

I took some pics of Spud destroying his salad today and i'll get them uploaded tomorrow. when the salad is in a bowl, it's non existant. when it's eye level on a flat plate, it's pwned. go figure


----------



## tortoisenerd (Feb 9, 2009)

loogielv-I didn't mean it as a diet plan or perfect example by any means...just showing how "easy" it is to add variety to a tort's diet. But yeah, nothing bad on that list. Wet is bad as far as keeping greens and veggies...It takes some time to dry them and keep them dry (change out towels every few days, and pick out the bad leaves on the bottoms and sides), but it really helps cut down the bills. When I used to just keep everything in the container it came in, yeah about a week is the best you can get. Also, you probably have to chop things up less than you think. Even my little hatchling can manage whole spring mix leaves...gives him a little work out and stimulation. I still end up throwing some stuff out (that we won't eat, and it goes bad before the tort can finish it all) though.

nrfichett4-It supposedly freezes for up to a year (per the sales rep). I have mine in the freezer, and just a little baggie out for the tort. I sprinkle mine very finely on the greens and he got a taste for it.


----------



## galvinkaos (Feb 9, 2009)

I have a "salad spinner" that I wash everything in, spin it and dump 99% of the water and then put in the fridge. My "tortoise food", as my son calls it, lasts until everyone eats it all (apparently tortoise food is good eating). The greens I grow last a month to 2 months. I too have found the mustard, collard, turnip turns bad faster, so I keep it separate and I buy smaller amounts. I think the store bought is aged longer before we see it. Like store bought eggs. My fresh laid wouldn't hardboil right for 6-8 weeks vs store bought which hard boil ok in 2 weeks. Man I wish I could have chickens again. Another when I hit the lottery list....

Dawna


----------



## tortoisenerd (Feb 9, 2009)

Dawna-guess I should add a salad spinner to my list of things to buy for Trevor that my fiance never seems to think he actually needs! Thanks for the tip. You actually find turnip greens at the store? I've asked at about 5 different chains and no one will carry them, although the one closest to me says they do get requests, but not enough. I started a tray of them though.


----------



## galvinkaos (Feb 9, 2009)

Don't tell the store but I broke some leaves off of the turnips at the grocery and bought them as something else (I don't remember what). The family won't eat turnips (and I have no clue how to cook them) or I would have bought the whole turnip. I got the salad spinner as a product test item for a cooking club I belong to. I washed the dust off last year and have used it more since I grew my garden and got the torts than when I first got it. My daughter uses it for draining excess water off pasta too. It actually has a lot of uses.

Dawna


----------



## nrfitchett4 (Feb 9, 2009)

tortoisenerd said:


> Dawna-guess I should add a salad spinner to my list of things to buy for Trevor that my fiance never seems to think he actually needs! Thanks for the tip. You actually find turnip greens at the store? I've asked at about 5 different chains and no one will carry them, although the one closest to me says they do get requests, but not enough. I started a tray of them though.



come on down to Texas. We are overloaded with them at the grocery stores!!! You have collards, turnip and mustards all next to each other. Even walmart here keeps them pretty much year round.

As for the mazuri, I will try to sprinkle it on the salad and see if shelly will go for it.


----------



## tortoisenerd (Feb 10, 2009)

Wow. I can get collards, mustard greens, and all sorts of exotic stuff (my organic place has 3 kinds of chard, etc)...but no one sells turnips with the tops still on or the greens themselves, lol. I went to an asian market the other day and they had all sorts of good tort food.

Anyone else ever get charged for produce that costs less than what they actually bought? I've gotten charged even half price because people think it's a more common green when it's a rare one. Also, sometimes they forget to check that it is organic and costs more than the conventional grown.


----------



## Kristina (Feb 11, 2009)

I find turnip greens all the time. They come from the same company, and in pretty much the same package, as these - 







I just happened to have a pic of the beet greens and not the turnip greens.

Kristina


----------



## Karyn (Feb 11, 2009)

I have discovered that my grocery store will allow me to buy only one leaf of each type. When bunches are sold by weight, I snag one or two leaves from the bunch, put them in a store baggie, and write the type on the bag with a permanent marker. Takes a while and many other customers are amused by my work.  With only one tort I was throwing so much away. (I'm not a big greens fan myself.) Sometimes all the greens I'll use in a week cost less than a buck. Then I wash and store them as suggested by others on this site. 

Karyn


----------



## tortoisenerd (Feb 11, 2009)

Hmmm....guess it varies by locale because we don't get some of the greens sold in other parts of the country (turnip, beet), and all our bunches are sold by a fixed price (some weeks they just have more or less). Only a couple stores sell anything by the pound, and it's usually spring mix or a kale/chard mix (which I don't get much of). I'd love to just pick up a leaf of everything!


----------



## nrfitchett4 (Feb 11, 2009)

all ours are sold in bunches banded together with a barcode. Usually 0.99 or less per bunch.


----------



## galvinkaos (Feb 11, 2009)

kyryah said:


> I find turnip greens all the time. They come from the same company, and in pretty much the same package, as these -
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is the same package I found for curly mustard and collard. but it is too big for the kids to finish a bag before it goes bad. 
The human kids ate all the "tortoise food" today, so I have to do weeds only tomorrow am and go shopping tomorrow. I am tempted to mix yard weeds in some of my spring mix in the fridge to make sure all the kids have food every day. My human kids have a tendency to tell me when something is gone instead of almost gone. I had a friend tell me she hit up the local produce guy about needing tortoise food and he told her to come in monday before 8am and he will give her the produce discards to sort before he throws them in the dumpster. She said most of the time they are wilted on the outside and good in the middle. She cleans them up and feeds for the week. There is variety because she picks up different stuff every monday

A good idea for those on a budget or with large tort households, if you can id the greens. They are not marked, just all thrown in a box.

Dawna


----------



## nrfitchett4 (Feb 11, 2009)

those prebagged ones are more expensive here.


----------



## tortoisenerd (Feb 11, 2009)

We don't get anything but the typical bagged spinach, spring mix, iceberg, etc.


----------

