# Bacterial "bloom" in babies ... fruit sugar trigger? Your thoughts.



## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Sep 19, 2013)

On another thread, the person asked if he/she could give their baby leopard fruit. My thought on this was NO and I said so. 

My reasoning was because I had read about the "bloom" of things, not good things, in the stomach when tortoises are stressed and fruit sugars can trigger this bloom. 

I see it like parvo with puppies that are taken from their mother before they have been able to build up enough good flora/good bacteria, they get an attack of the bad, have no defense and can die if not treated. Some holistic methods for parvo involve probiotics and herb combinations that increase the good gut flora and boost the immune system.

When I read about hatchling failure syndrome, I always wonder if the baby had been fed fruits and the sugars triggered a bloom, and, well ... boom. Dead.

I do know, from reading here, that they get renal failure since the kidneys also regulate calcium metabolism and when kidneys fail calcium has to come from bone and this calcium taken at all costs makes the shell soft. That is why oxalic acid foods are especially not good for babies also, right? And keeping them hydrated, of course, eases stress on those little kidneys. Which is why warm and humid is good thing. Again, amateur just thinking out loud here.

So I wonder, and would like your thoughts. Could fruit sugars cause a toxic bloom reaction and kill a baby tortoises? No one has asked after the fact if they gave their babies fruit as part of their diet? And I suppose we have never asked if they ate high oxalic acid foods for that matter.

I ask because it is so heart breaking to read the my baby died out of nowhere posts and perhaps this is another tortoise keeping consideration, especially for inexperienced keepers. Thank you in advance.


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## peasinapod (Sep 19, 2013)

*AW: Good bacteria in babies, or rather the lack of ...*

This is a really interesting thought. I could imagine a weakened gut-flora and a "bloom" to be really weakening for such a small and young organism.

What instantly popped into my mind wile reading this was poop-eating.
If I remember correctly there are lots of herbivores which eat their food to redigest it. Furthermore it is said to help keep an active and healthy gut-flora. 

Should poop-eating be encouraged or at least not inhibited totally in youg ones? This of course includes only healthy poo, no parasites or runny stool and not excessuve amounts.



Sent from my GT-I9100 using TortForum mobile app


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Sep 19, 2013)

Yes, exactly! We often hear that there is poop eating going on in the wild, so the appropriate bacteria is introduced. But what about babies that come out of incubators. How does the "good" bacteria they need get to them? So not having the necessary bacteria, and then fruit sugars, or oxalic acid, and boom ... bloom ... and then some babies die. My reasoning at this time.


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## peasinapod (Sep 19, 2013)

*AW: Bacterial "bloom" in babies ... fruit sugar trigger? Your thoughts.*

http://www.tortoise.org/general/descare.html
On the left part, just above the "health" section there's an interesting paragraph. There it tells you not to feed hatchlings store-bought food, as they lack the right bacteria and that they gain them by eating other tortoises feces and eating tiny amounts of dirt.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using TortForum mobile app


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## nate.mann (Sep 19, 2013)

makes sense to me. i love this thread so far. 


0.1.0 Russian
0.0.1 Leopard
1.0.0 Blue Pit/American Bulldog
Chive On!


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## peasinapod (Sep 19, 2013)

The best place for a baby to develop/attain the good bacteria would be at the breeders. There you should have animals which are exposed to the same pathogens as the hatchling, which hopefully aren't ill and which are from the same species.


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## tortadise (Sep 19, 2013)

I Dont necessarily think its the gut flora issue. When there is unbalance in levels of glucose, or minerals, which is part, and a major part of diet in chelonians it can alter with the immune system. Let's use fruit for an example. If you feed too much fruit that spikes glucose and burns calcium it effects the entire cycle system of the animals potential to expel foreign issues. Like parasitic blooms. I'm not scientific enough to develops a good strong argument. But all I know is that a week n
Non functioning (properly) internal systems the greater the chances are for enhanced take over. If a flaggelite or parasite can see the opportunity to expand in its environment it will. So yes I would say this is an issue with feeding too much fruit and along with other edibles that are not "great" or outside of natural ingestion of that tortoise.


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## peasinapod (Sep 19, 2013)

tortadise said:


> I Dont necessarily think its the gut flora issue. When there is unbalance in levels of glucose, or minerals, which is part, and a major part of diet in chelonians it can alter with the immune system. Let's use fruit for an example. If you feed too much fruit that spikes glucose and burns calcium it effects the entire cycle system of the animals potential to expel foreign issues. Like parasitic blooms. I'm not scientific enough to develops a good strong argument. But all I know is that a week n
> Non functioning (properly) internal systems the greater the chances are for enhanced take over. If a flaggelite or parasite can see the opportunity to expand in its environment it will. So yes I would say this is an issue with feeding too much fruit and along with other edibles that are not "great" or outside of natural ingestion of that tortoise.



You're right! Even an adult can't digest fruit. Duh, I must have been still way too sleepy this morning! 

But maybe the unstable and not yet developed system can not even cope with normal, good stuff anymore after a certain time?


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Sep 19, 2013)

Yes, yes. Quite frankly, I was thinking of red algae bloom/red tide that happens in the ocean when I used the word bloom. Flagellates is it? Or maybe flagellates and others. In any case, GotTort's thread got me going:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-79514.html


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## EricIvins (Sep 19, 2013)

Fruit is not going to cause internal issues. They would have to eat copious amounts of it to do anything. Much more than what they could eat on a daily basis either way. 

Parasite or bad gut Flora blooms are caused by a weakened immune system. Read STRESS. It doesn't matter what they eat when they are stressed. Even when fed what is perceived as a "natural" or "good" diet ( Whatever that means - My Leopards had access to a wide variety of Fruit when I fed that kind of stuff ) Natural Fructose is found in all sorts of plants, not just "fruit".

The fact of the matter is good husbandry will not kill a Tortoise. Bad husbandry will. Diet is fairly insignificant if the husbandry is bad enough to stress the animal out in the first place.....


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## BeeBee*BeeLeaves (Sep 19, 2013)

Thanks Eric. That makes sense. Stress sucks. In tortoises and people. Some species seem to stress so easily, so get that husbandry right quick, now, I guess is key to successful acclimation in their new home, and to assure that they thrive.


But let me ask you this, are there probiotics than can help? An insurance, assurance. Like human easy to get ones? yogurt and kefir for instance? from the grocery store? Or do tortoises need specific probiotics found in tortoise specific products. Just wondering now.


I just realized, after reading another thread where Tom responded, that DUH, you do not feed dairy products to a tortoise so X-nay the yogurt and kefir, of course. Obvious, no dairy, but I did not see it at first as I was caught up on the probiotics part.


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