# Protein source for red-foots



## lavender25 (Jun 23, 2010)

What do you guys feed your red-foots for a protein source? 

I am not sure what to add, she likes worms. she has eaten a couple when outside.
thanks


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## Kristina (Jun 23, 2010)

I like to feed mine fish that has been canned in water. Both salmon and mackerel are very rich in Vit. D3 and they go CRAZY over it. My Redfoots, Hingebacks and Box turtles all eat it.


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## Madkins007 (Jun 24, 2010)

Remember- as far as we can tell, they do not NEED animal protein, although it does offer a lot of great nutrients and offers enrichment.

When possible, I prefer live and whole and try to avoid processed- but I don't think processed is terrible, just not my preference.

Here are some things I have read or heard recommended here and there. I am not offering them as an endorsement, necessarily, but some ideas to look into...

Almost any kinds of bugs, worms, insects, anthropods, larvae, etc. Avoid mealworms since the hard shell can cause blockages in some animals. Probably not a problem when only used once in a while.

Almost any feeder rats, mice, or chicks- 'hopper' mice and rats have the best calcium development. This makes a lot of people queasy, but most Red-foots love'em!

Cooked chicken, beef heart, beef liver. Some people feed elk and venison. Someone somewhere said they use homemade jerky. 

Fish, especially oily fish. Some keepers report it makes the poo smell bad. 

Good quality, low-fat processed pet foods- dog, cat, ferret, etc. There is a lot of debate over the pros and cons of different things- canned vs. chows, etc. but like some breeders have pointed out- we are generally only using a little bit once in a while. Many others are pretty adamant that we not use this stuff at all.


In other words- pretty much what you would eat or feed to another animal, that is low in fat and preservatives, and fed in moderation!


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## movealongmosey (Jun 25, 2010)

My tortoise mosey absolutely loves turkey, but he sometimes mistakes it for my fingers.


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## Kristina (Jun 25, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> Remember- as far as we can tell, they do not NEED animal protein, although it does offer a lot of great nutrients and offers enrichment.



I personally do not feel that statement to be correct. We are talking about a forest tortoise that receives little to no UV exposure. Unless foods that are rich in D3 are fed (meats) then how is a Redfoot supposed to assimilate calcium?

I absolutely feel that Redfoots need a meat source in their diet.

I have never found it odd that forest species eat meat. The evolutionary process for that is obvious. Less UV = need for D3 source = meat eater.


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## robinhoods123 (Jun 25, 2010)

It is important to not overfeed animal protein, though; one very small serving of moistened low fat cat food or lean meat, every 1-2 weeks is enough. A variety of fresh leafy greens, vegetables, and fruits should also be fed. A calcium and vitamin D3 supplement should be used.


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## Candy (Jun 25, 2010)

Madkins I'm curious what you mean about not needing any protein, where did you hear this? I've always heard that they need some protein. I think I've heard that if they don't get it that it can effect their back legs somehow. Is this true?


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## Kristina (Jun 26, 2010)

robinhoods123 said:


> It is important to not overfeed animal protein, though; one very small serving of moistened low fat cat food or lean meat, every 1-2 weeks is enough. A variety of fresh leafy greens, vegetables, and fruits should also be fed. A calcium and vitamin D3 supplement should be used.



Obviously this person can't answer, but others that feel this way, based on what?

In the wild, tortoises aren't sitting around thinking "it is time for my twice weekly protein source" or "I should eat a varied diet!"

They are opportunistic feeders. They eat what is available at the time. If they see a worm, TRUST ME, they are GOING to eat it. Quickly, lol. 

So how do we really know how much they need? Not really. Can anyone find a study on the stomach contents of wild Redfoots? I'll look in a little while, but gotta run for the moment.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jun 26, 2010)

kyryah said:


> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> > Remember- as far as we can tell, they do not NEED animal protein, although it does offer a lot of great nutrients and offers enrichment.
> ...



You should Kristina.. because it is NOT correct for the very reasons you mentioned. ANOTHER example of what happens when too much research is done.. contradictions surface.. which leads to confusion and doubt. And the worst part is it prevents some from relying on those that actually have decades of experience! 

Omnivorous tortoises do not bask to 'absorb' D3 [ like herbivors do ].. they acquire it thru their diet that includes animal-protein. ( Be sure you [ whoever you are ] read this statement well enough to understand it.. before you take it out of context and make a false statement! )

Where are all of these 'sources' coming from? Can we get ONE?

NERD


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## Madkins007 (Jun 26, 2010)

kyryah said:


> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> > Remember- as far as we can tell, they do not NEED animal protein, although it does offer a lot of great nutrients and offers enrichment.
> ...



Few Red-foots come from the rain forest. Most come from more open savannahs, scrub forests, etc. where they get plenty of sunlight. Check out the native habitat photos in Pritchard's "Turtles of Venezuela" or Vinke's "South American Turtles" or dozens of other sources. The myth that this is a primarily a rain-forest species is just not true. 

Many experienced keepers and authors around the world have commented on this as well- both what makes their native habitat, and the idea that they do not NEED animal proteins- they get plenty from the plants, just like grassland species do.



Redfoot NERD said:


> kyryah said:
> 
> 
> > Madkins007 said:
> ...



Sources for native habitat:
- Wikipedia- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-footed_tortoise
- Vinke and Vetter "South American Tortoises"
- Pritchard "Turtles of Venezuela"
- EmySystem- http://emys.geo.orst.edu/cgi-bin/emysmap?tn=137&cf=ijklmno
- Pretty much any book on tortoises that mention Red-foots. Even when they are IN a rain forest, they are most often found in clearings. 

Basking:
- This has been confirmed by our own Carl that it happens
- It has been observed by every field observer who writes about such things, from Moscovitz to Pritchard to Vinke

Proteins:
Remember- I said they don't need ANIMAL protein, not that they don't need protein at all. All vertebrates need protein.

Also remember that MOST of the animal protein they are documented as eating has little vitamin D in it anyway- butterflies, termites, worms, etc. Fecal studies in the wild do NOT support the idea that they automatically and consistently get enough D through their diet.

- Pingleton "Red-foot Manual"
- Vinke "South American Tortoises"
- Our own Ed
- BJORNDAHL- Flexibility of Digestive Responses


I showed you mine, now you can show us yours. What are your sources and proofs, other than your personal experience, that Red-foots a.) are primarily a rain forest species, b.) do not bask, and c.) need animal proteins?

You have great experience, and you can safely say that the tortoises you have raised on your program do very well- but that is a lot different than saying that you have proof they need meat, do not benefit from UVB, etc.


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## Candy (Jun 26, 2010)

Madkins what can I say? You make me laugh every time someone challenges your information. I myself will not do that as I have not researched as much as you. I surely appreciate that you do your homework though. I do hope Danny chimes in here since I thought it was him who I read once that said that sometimes they have paralysis in their back legs do to not enough protein in the diet. Of course now that you've said that the protein does not have to be animal I wonder if this is what he meant.


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## Redfoot NERD (Jun 26, 2010)

Mark didn't read it did he? Why should I have to explain what I say to a few. Redfoot tortoises do not lay out in the sun and bask like 'herbivorous' ( G. elegans/star for example ) tortoises do. At least they don't in my back yard. 

And let's look at the protein differences between plants and animals. From what I can tell plants don't even come close to the %'s as animal sources do.

NERD


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## Candy (Jun 26, 2010)

Dale does lay out in the sun just like Carl said they do. I see Dale doing this a lot lately.


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## Kristina (Jun 26, 2010)

Mine do not. Granted, I have not had them long, but during the hours that the sun is on their pens, they are in their hides. They are only tempted into the sunshine if I turn the sprinkler on.


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## lavender25 (Jun 26, 2010)

Ok, sorry to cause a debate here. 


So little Gem, my redfoot, likes earthworms. Can i feed her worms as a protein source? How many and how often. She finds them when outside in her pen, but can be fed extra if needed.


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## Madkins007 (Jun 26, 2010)

Redfoot NERD said:


> Mark didn't read it did he? Why should I have to explain what I say to a few. Redfoot tortoises do not lay out in the sun and bask like 'herbivorous' ( G. elegans/star for example ) tortoises do. At least they don't in my back yard.
> 
> And let's look at the protein differences between plants and animals. From what I can tell plants don't even come close to the %'s as animal sources do.
> 
> NERD



What didn't I read? I think I covered every question, and backed up every answer. 

I am going to take off the gloves, just a little, and I beg everyone else's pardon for doing it.

Terry- you have OFTEN accused me of spreading bad information, suggesting strongly that it is bad for the tortoises, then used your own experiences and theories to contradict it- not FACTS, just your opinions.

I call foul. YOUR torts do not bask? So what? Many others have seen their torts bask, Moscovits and Pritchard have seen it- are you calling them liars? I know you disagree with Mike Pingleton and Vinke and Vetter, but they have world-wide reputations. Are they liars?

Your mentor- Carl May- has seen it and said so before in discussions like this. Is he also a liar? Are these people fools? Wrong? Trying to intentionally mislead us?

I've got a lot of well-recognized and trusted people on one side of the debate, all saying that Red-foots are not rainforest animals, that they do bask, and so forth. Then there is you, who has had good luck on a medium-small scale with his torts saying different things on this side. 

You have every right to an opinion, and your experience means a lot, but it does not mean you are right when you do not have cold, hard facts to back you up. The ONLY claim I can think of that I have seen you back up is the misting till they drip bit using data from Richard Fife. 

Your on-going insistence that Red-foots are a rain forest animal is just plain, provably wrong, and the theories that you have built on that basis are flawed (not automatically wrong, but flawed and need to be carefully re-examined.) 

.........................................

As long as we are at it- plant vs. animal proteins: most meats are 14-25mg. of protein in 100 grams of food. While most plants are indeed not that high, some, like Timothy grass, are higher with 54mg. 

You also have to factor in the ratios. I know people here hate it when I do math, but- you recommend a weekly protein half-sized meal. Let's call that meal 'x units'. That means that M-Sat, we are feeding 6 days of 2x, or 24x, then the x meal on the 7th day, for a weekly total of 25x. 1/25th or 4% of the total weekly diet is meat.

If the total weekly diet weighs 100 grams, then only 4 grams is meat. If the meat you are using is a high protein meat, 25mg/100 grams, then your tortoise is getting only 1mg of protein from that meal.

If the other plants are as low as 2mg of protein in 100mg, then the tortoise is still getting over 1.9mgs of protein from the plants- almost twice as much as it is from the meat.

.............................

Everyone, sorry for the rant. Back to nice guy mode.


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## Candy (Jun 26, 2010)

kyryah said:


> Mine do not. Granted, I have not had them long, but during the hours that the sun is on their pens, they are in their hides. They are only tempted into the sunshine if I turn the sprinkler on.



Kristina I just wanted to clarify that I don't have a hide in Dale's enclosure outside anymore and this could be the reason that he now basks because before he didn't. I got tired of putting him outside for the summer and him just hiding all of the time. So I used tough love and took his hide away so he could see that he was safe out there. He does have plants to hide under though. Now he goes out and wonders around and looks at everything and lays in the sun when he can (I have it somewhat filtered with lattice on the top). It's funny to watch him now he seems much happier out there now if I could just get him a pond like Pio has I'm sure he'd be much happier. 

Good post Mark!


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## terryo (Jun 26, 2010)

Candy, Pio will sit for hours right in the stream, in the sun. For some reason he likes to sit in the stream with the water flowing rather than the pond with no movement. But...he does bask for long periods of time. You have given me a good idea. I hate it when he spends a lot of time in his hide on a beautiful day, so I'm going to close it off during the day. There is plenty of plants to sit under and cool off if he wants to. Good idea. I hope doing that is OK..?? Oh no...am I off topic again...sorry.


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## cdmay (Jun 27, 2010)

I wasn't going to respond on this thread but then I saw my name mentioned and well, you know how that is...
For the record, Madkins007 is basically correct and I would agree with most of his comments regarding the diet, habitat and other aspects of red foots as is known about them from observations in the wild.
Red foot tortoises are usually NOT found in deep shade or rainforest. In some parts of their range red foots can occasionally be found in rainforest situations but virtually all authors who report on finding them in such places add that this is not their prefered habitat. Red foots are found in a wide variety of habitats ranging from dry thorn scrub, savanahs, forest edges and so on. But again, although they are occasionally found in some rainforest habitat, their populations are typically low there. 
Although some keepers of captive red foots report that their tortoises never bask the simple fact is that this is not the norm. I know numerous people who have studied red foots in Colombia, Brazil, Guyana and Paraguay and they all--ALL OF THEM--have found red foots while the animals were basking. Most have told me directly that they find red foots actively basking during the morning hours or even at midday in patches of sunlight. 
In my own experience with red foots (dating back to 1974) I have found that they bask nearly every day unless it is very hot and dry. Right now my animals do not bask that much as it is incredibly hot and dry in south Florida lately. They are pretty much active only in the early morning and evening now. But this is to avoid the heat, not the sun. Heck, I try not to go out during the middle of the day if I can help it!
One other thing about temperature...red foots are found in places where it gets cold, even freezing. A good friend of mine was in the Paraguayan Chaco a few years ago. He and his companions found numerous red foots for a couple of days while it was truly hot--100+ degrees. But then a cold front moved in and in 24 hours the tempertures dropped to freezing. Of course the tortoises had disappeared into refugia but still, it makes you think. 
The statements about red foots 'needing' protein in their diet is something that has been blown way out of proportion. Like an urban legend that becomes more firmly established the more times it gets repeated, the concept that red foots must have additional protein is just not backed by anything of substance.
It is true that there have been anecdotal reports about them eating the occasional dead bird or lizard that they find in the wild and I have even heard of a case where some yellow foots were found eating the remains of a dead cow. But the same can be said of numerous other tortoise species. Leopard tortoises have been found eating the poop of some of the African megafauna but I wouldn't suggest that leopard tortoise keepers supply their tortoises with giraffe crap because of that.
So red foots will eat meat if you give it to them. So what? My little dachshund likes ice cream. She would eat it every day if I would give it to her. Does that mean that she 'needs' it or has to have loads of it? Sure, I give my red foots a little extra protein here and there but I don't go nuts about it or treat them like box turtles. Or snapping turtles. 
It seems that red foots may in fact consume a bit more animal material in the wild than some other tortoise species. But we are talking about the random encounter. Its not like they are getting cat food or turkey breast handed to them on a platter every week. Use some common sense.
Regarding these statements...
*
I personally do not feel that statement to be correct. We are talking about a forest tortoise that receives little to no UV exposure. Unless foods that are rich in D3 are fed (meats) then how is a Redfoot supposed to assimilate calcium?

I absolutely feel that Redfoots need a meat source in their diet.

I have never found it odd that forest species eat meat. The evolutionary process for that is obvious. Less UV = need for D3 source = meat eater*

There are a number of things here that seem to be pure speculation. The first, that red foots are a "forest tortoise that receives little to no UV exposure" is just simply erroneous. Even when red foots are found in forest situations--in fact, more so--they are typically found in clearings where they can bask. Even in deep forest they have been found basking in patches of sunlight. 
The last sentence that in part says "Less UV = need for D3 source = meat eater" is also without any merit. How does this person explain the fact that Manouria impressa, M. emys and Indotestudo elongata are all found in deep forest situations and greatly prefer shaded environments in captivity, and yet they are not generally known as meat eaters. M. impressa seems to be a fungus specialist. True, I would bet that all three will eat the occasional dead vertebrate they encounter but they seem to do just fine in deep shade with a generalist or herbivore existence.
Anyone here may have something to add to any discussion based on their personal observations. But you have to temper what you say with the knowledge that you might be making sweeping generalizations based on the relatively few animals you keep.


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## RichardS (Jun 27, 2010)

cdmay said:


> Anyone here may have something to add to any discussion based on their personal observations. But you have to temper what you say with the knowledge that you might be making sweeping generalizations based on the relatively few animals you keep.



Amen!


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## Tom (Jun 27, 2010)

This has been a fascinating and very useful thread. Everyone reading this is gaining from wisdom and knowledge that takes decades to accumulate. Thanks to everyone who has participated, especially the lot of you who have tons of experience in this area. I just learned more about redfoots in the last ten minutes, reading this thread, than in the last few years.


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## Candy (Jun 27, 2010)

Great information on Redfoots Carl thanks for posting it. My husband was saying the same thing after remembering the information about where they are from that you and Mark had posted before. Even the pictures of their farms that I've seen are open and they're all out and about. It is very interesting about the protein and I'd like to read more about it. I've given Dale elk meat before, but now when try to give it to him he eats a bit and walks away. I tried also to give them chicken like people on here have fed theirs and they didn't get excited over it at all. I guess if they want it they'll eat it that's the way I feed Dale and Ruby and Eddie.


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## Madkins007 (Jun 28, 2010)

cdmay said:


> The last sentence that in part says "Less UV = need for D3 source = meat eater" is also without any merit. How does this person explain the fact that Manouria impressa, M. emys and Indotestudo elongata are all found in deep forest situations and greatly prefer shaded environments in captivity, and yet they are not generally known as meat eaters. M. impressa seems to be a fungus specialist. True, I would bet that all three will eat the occasional dead vertebrate they encounter but they seem to do just fine in deep shade with a generalist or herbivore existence.



Just FYI- fungi are a natural source of vitamin D2. MANY forest species are big fungus eaters.


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