# Open Topped Pyramided Scute



## Tom (Oct 16, 2010)

So here's an extreme close-up of one of my new girls' scutes. You can see the layers pretty well and the damage goes pretty deep. I'm guessing that this scute was "cooked" and dried out like this from being too close to the heat lamp with the previous owner.

I'm a little worried about stuff getting in there and causing a problem. I'm considering sanding it down until I get to a smooth, undamaged layer.

Any opinions on the matter are welcome.

I thought I'd have to wait until I found a dead pyramided tortoise to see the inside of a pyramided scute, but here it is. I wonder how far down it goes until the bone starts...


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## TKCARDANDCOIN (Oct 16, 2010)

Aww, poor girl.Looks pretty nasty.I don't know what I would do,maybe try flushing it out real good with some nolvasan solution and let nature take its course?Just keeping it clean, I quess!Good luck whatever you do!


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## Kristina (Oct 16, 2010)

That is equal parts gross and fascinating, for sure. 

I am not sure about sanding it, I would be too afraid it would just continue to crumble and you would end up with a worse hole.

I wonder if it would be possible to seal it with something like epoxy resin? I wouldn't do fiberglass, it doesn't stick well and if water was to get in there, you would have a nasty rotten mess.

Interested to hear what others have to say.


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## chairman (Oct 16, 2010)

While taking a glass bottom boat tour in Silver Springs, FL, we came across a turtle (RES, I believe) that was missing the rear quarter of its body. According to the tour guide the vet at the park filled in the hole with fiberglass and it had been living fine for years thereafter. From looking at the turtle, it did seem as though the area was remodeled with fiberglass. Granted, it could have been an epoxy... I think you're more likely to find a non-toxic epoxy than a non-toxic variety of fiber glass.

Had you thought about filling the gap with bee's wax? I would think that the wax would protect the area while the shell healed on its own. And, being bee's wax, the tortoise's body would probably either push the wax out of the way as the shell healed or it could possibly even safely absorb the wax and process it.


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## Turtulas-Len (Oct 16, 2010)

Duct Tape as a temporary fix to keep it clean inside, it can be changed daily if needed.


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## Kristina (Oct 16, 2010)

The beeswax is a FANTASTIC idea!

As far as the epoxy resin goes, I use Park's Superglaze in underwater applications - fish tanks, paludariums, etc., and it is non-toxic to the fish and amphibians (amphibs are notoriously sensitive) and does not appear to leech any chemicals or gasses into the water.


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## egyptiandan (Oct 16, 2010)

Tom, your already at bone, dead but it's bone. So if you sanded you'd be sanding bone. You can though pull the dead bone out of there. It looks like it has healed and than become uncovered (the bone) and died again. You can use a single edge razor blade to take off the dead scute material (what's loose and flaky) over the dead bone. 
If it doesn't smell, I wouldn't worry to much about it. You can though cover it with a piece of duct tape to keep water out of it. Just make sure it's totally dry before you put on the tape.

Danny


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## franeich (Oct 16, 2010)

No pics of the rest of her?


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## Neal (Oct 16, 2010)

I must have missed something. Did you get a new tortoise?


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## Maggie Cummings (Oct 16, 2010)

When I was involved in rescue at my sisters we repaired a lot of holes. We used fiberglass and what happened is you close up a wound and close in bacteria and cause a nasty mess. It is my advice to take off the loose pieces and keep it open and let nature heal it. Clean it regularly with Nolvasan and just make sure it is growing and filling in on it's own. But don't close it up, if you do you are just asking for trouble...I understand it's not a wound but closing it up is still a bad idea...


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## dmmj (Oct 16, 2010)

Duct tape? is there anything it can't do?


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## Tom (Oct 16, 2010)

franeich said:


> No pics of the rest of her?



http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-new-girls.19690/

Here you go.



Neal Butler said:


> I must have missed something. Did you get a new tortoise?



Yep. Two of them. Here they are:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-new-girls.19690/


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## Yvonne G (Oct 17, 2010)

The top layer, the keratin layer, is only about the thickness of your fingernail. On a large sulcata, it might be just a tad thicker, but not much.


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## Madkins007 (Oct 17, 2010)

So- on a pyramided scute, with no significant metabolic bone disorder underlying it, does the bone follow the contour of the pyramid? I didn't think they did.

It looks mostly old and healed, but it could still harbor a ton of bad stuff. I would remove anything that was loose, then flush well with Betadine or similar, then not really cover it or anything unless the other steps made any new openings or bad spots.


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## Tom (Nov 13, 2010)

In relation to Mark's recent thread, here is an update... with pics, of course. I took everyones advice and used a straight edge razor instead of a Dremel with a sanding drum. There is exposed bone visible there and the scute material IS only about as thick as a fingernail. There were several layers and I'm still concerned about this area because the scute material is separated from the bone on the entire top third of this pyramid. The scute material is flexible and it moves when you push on it, independently of the bone. BTW, she was a very good girl and just sat there on the ground sunning while I worked on her and took pics.

Before I worked on it:





In progress:





The edge of the razor is touching exposed bone here:





All done.





Her other bad scute after I worked on it:





Of course, Scooter had to come over and be nosy. He wanted to know what I was doing to "his" girl:





Here was the scene before AND after I did the deed:


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## Yvonne G (Nov 13, 2010)

This is Chewy, right? Looking at her "knobs" and trying to eliminate all the growth in between, can't you just imagine how bumpy this little girl was at, say, 4 or 5 years old? If I'm remembering correctly, this one was found in a fellow's driveway and had been chewed on by dogs or coyotes, right? So this guy who found her really did well by her. She stopped pyramiding under his care and grew pretty smoothly.

Thanks for showing us those pictures of how you trimmed off the dead stuff. I think it will be much better now that debris can't get stuck inside there.


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## DeanS (Nov 13, 2010)

Outstanding work Tom! Now what?!?! Can you apply a Nolvasan scrub or some Betadine to wipe out (or control) any bacteria that could spread in there?


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## Tom (Nov 13, 2010)

My intention is to watch it like a hawk and leave it alone. It think it will be better if it just stays dry in there. If it hasn't been a problem up to this point, I don't think it will be. I just wanted to get the excess crud off of there so it could be open and not trap stuff in there.


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## Balboa (Nov 13, 2010)

I'm no vet, and y'all are WAY more experienced than I am, but I'd THINK it would need to be kept hydrated in order for the scute to heal, I mean we're talking about exposed bone right? Generally speaking that sort of thing needs to be patched over and sealed up in humans. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Az tortoise compound (Nov 13, 2010)

Tom,
We have had a few the same type of open scute. I have always left them alone unless it had mud built up in it and needed rinsing. It doesn't seem to be a likely place for infection as the material (bone,keratin etc.) is rock solid and dry (no ooze or puss).
I have also seen very experienced keepers use epoxy to patch a scute. Usually on females from the males wearing them down with their front feet and plastron while breeding. They would put down another layer every year as the old one wore down.


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## nascarmw (Nov 13, 2010)

dmmj said:


> Duct tape? is there anything it can't do?



well ya can't fix stupid..even with duck tape!!!


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## Yvonne G (Nov 14, 2010)

Balboa said:


> I'm no vet, and y'all are WAY more experienced than I am, but I'd THINK it would need to be kept hydrated in order for the scute to heal, I mean we're talking about exposed bone right? Generally speaking that sort of thing needs to be patched over and sealed up in humans. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.



Well, it actually seems like a miracle, but new bone and keratin actually re-grow UNDER what you're seeing in the picture. I have had box turtles with old chew marks on their shells. Some years after the original injury, you can see the old, white bone sort of being raised up until it looks sort of like a scab. And it can eventually be "picked" off. New, good-looking shell underneath. I've never seen it in tortoises, but I would assume its the same. 

I used to tell people who were adopting my rescues that, no, the damage would never re-grow and it would always look like that. But one day I posted a picture of a chewed box turtle here on the forum and Danny told me it looked like that damage was ready come off. Sure enough, I picked at it and it flaked off showing clean, new keratin underneath. But don't expect it to happen over night. It takes years.


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## Madkins007 (Nov 14, 2010)

emysemys said:


> Balboa said:
> 
> 
> > I'm no vet, and y'all are WAY more experienced than I am, but I'd THINK it would need to be kept hydrated in order for the scute to heal, I mean we're talking about exposed bone right? Generally speaking that sort of thing needs to be patched over and sealed up in humans. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.
> ...



If this was a more recent injury, we WOULD suggest an aggressive approach, but it is old and stable. There is not much you can do at this point, kind of like a bad wound in a human that healed wrong, but is completely healed. Covering it and using antibiotic is not going to do much at this point.

The goal at this point becomes just helping the tort's overall health and immune system.


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## Balboa (Nov 14, 2010)

hmmm that makes sense, and its good to know.


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## zesty_17 (Apr 26, 2011)

I wouldn't want to seal it up with resin due to the potential risk of an infection. I have used honey & seen several studies of honey & the comb healing turtle shells very quickly. My suggestion would be to carefully file or peel down/off the dead layers of shell & coat with honey on a daily basis until you notice significant healing. The honey has healing properties similar to hydrogen peroxide, without the harmful effects on the living tissue. Good Luck!


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## ALDABRAMAN (Apr 26, 2011)

zesty_17 said:


> I wouldn't want to seal it up with resin due to the potential risk of an infection. I have used honey & seen several studies of honey & the comb healing turtle shells very quickly. My suggestion would be to carefully file or peel down/off the dead layers of shell & coat with honey on a daily basis until you notice significant healing. The honey has healing properties similar to hydrogen peroxide, without the harmful effects on the living tissue. Good Luck!



That is interesting, I have never heard that before.


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## Zouave (Apr 26, 2011)

Dental cement. :nod: Have any dentist friends?


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## zesty_17 (Apr 26, 2011)

Here is a good site about fractures of the shell & how to repair them yourself... I do recommend a good herp vet though if you have never done this before. I have some good photos of the honey thing & other types of shell repair that deal with some extreme cases, but haven't figured out how to post photos yet... email me off forum if you would like to see what I have. 

http://www.asianturtlenetwork.org/library/useful_resources/Easy_shell_repair_03_06.pdf


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