# Chevy thread comments/age appropiate etc.



## Laura (Nov 24, 2010)

I gotta agree with everyone, that Chevy doesnt look great.
he needs a vet visit and medication:

At this point there doenst appear to be much a vet could do better. SOme of the best 'experts' are helping her along. Granted they cant touch or see the tort, but they have more expereince then most Vets. 



d since nobody else wants to say it..I will. I think you're trying your best, and thats admirable, but I think you are in over your head.

I dont think many of us feel that way, " in over her head' part but thats ok if you do. but remember she is 15, just a kid.. so be gentle.. 



Chevy is a young sully and you're already having trouble.. its just gonna get harder from here.
I suggest giving Chevy to someone more equipped to handle a sully, and getting something smaller, and er for you to handle.

how much smaller can he get? Yes hatchlings are delicate, and maybe most people who are beginners, regardles of age should get one that is 1-2 years old to start off with. Many people have trouble with the babies.. thier age has nothing to do with it. 

I'm not trying to be mean, or offensive, thats just my opinion.

It is offensive and I know its not how you meant it.. but its hard to 'hear' the tone in words on a screen.. 

Thats not what I was saying at all.
I said in my post that I think you're doing the best you can. But you're age is a factor.

How is her age a factor? She is a well educated, very informed 15 year old. Many adults out there or before they came here.. new less then she does or did. Granted, she doenst have a job to pay for bills, doenst drive, but MANY adults dont eitehr! 


At some point Chevy is going to become someone else's responsibility. a 15 year old shouldn't have a sulcata any more then they should have a mastiff.

her parents are legally resonsible if it came down to that.. but not sure I get your point there...?

I tried to word my response nicely, and maybe instead of blowing up and being offended, you should respect the fact that I'm voicing my opinion in hopes of benifitting Chevy

She is 15,, and very upset about her very sick pet.. it could be said differently or maybe at a different time.. now is not the time.. 

I didn't say you can't take care of Chevy, I said you're having trouble, and that its only going to get harder. I didn't say your a bad mommy. but lets face facts.
Torts don't go to college. and 18 year old kids don't usually have a house with a yard.

many adults dont have a house with a yard, or they have one, but move, or get forclosed on.. Im 47 with a good job and 8 acers.. but there is no telling what the future holds.. my torts will outlive me, so should I not have them?


So how bout you show a little maturity, and instead of saying "How dare you.." maybe say" I see where your coming from but.."

I see where you are coming from, and I understand, but it really doenst matter.. age has nothing to do with it. How mature were you at 15? How many pets did you lose or have get sick? Emotions are high.. 

I meant no Disrespect, and again you're doing your best.. But this is a public forum, and I have every right to voice my opinion about the subject matter. You may not agree with it, and you have that right. But thats still what I think and I don't regret posting it.

There is a time and place for such..and on Chevys thread, was the wrong place.. 
I'll bow out now, because this is not what this thread is about, and I don't want to clutter the thread .
Best of luck with Chevy. 

I hope you and yours have a great Holiday.. Be safe.. and I know you care, it just comes across a bit different..


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## Neal (Nov 24, 2010)

I think a young person any age can be more capable of caring for a tortoise of any species then some adults I know. She obviously willing and possibly capable of doing whatever it takes to make sure Chevy is better. You can't say that Chevy "needs" a vet visit without seeing the tortoise in person, yes the pictures show his eyes closed, but that alone doesn't indicate a need to go to the vet. 

Why would Chevy become someone else's responsibility? Unless she has indicated in another thread, this doesn't make sense. If you mean that she will be someone elses problem when she goes to college...I go to college, I'm a full time student with a part time job, a family, a bunch of tortoises and I manage just fine. 

I'm all for posting what you feel you need to say, so I don't think anyone expects kenny to take back what he said and he shouldn't. I for one just want to express how I feel to help (Marty333) get through this.


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## Kenny (Nov 24, 2010)

Ok, I'm really not trying to start a Flame war here.

My point was this: 
there are alot of tortoises available in the pet trade. Sulcata should be reserved (imo) for keepers who own property , not for children.

Yes I am a student. I do not own a sulcata.
and you maybe a student living with your parents owning a sulcata, and it may work. but you're also not 15.
at 15 you can't say with any certainty that you will go to college or not, and if yo do, yo can't say that you will stay home for college.
my point is that in one way or another Chevy will become the responsibility of her parents. Whether she goes away to college, or lives in an apartment. At 15 she has know Idea what her financial situation will be down the road.

Laura: I understand that things happen, and nobody is immune to financial troubles. But as a 47 year adult I'm sure you have "just in case " plans and at least a good understanding of where you will be in 5,10,15 years.

At no point in my response did I mean to disrespect or demean Marty.
I respect Marty for being as educated as possible at such a young age.
And I didn't mean to imply that she has caused Chevys problems.

Maybe my response was poorly timed ( although I do think I have a valid point)
but sulcata are a big responsiblity, and one imo to big for a 15 year old. (thats just my opinion)

I really didn't mean to anger anyone. I just think Marty would be better off with a smaller tort that could do well in smaller living quaters.
I live in a 1000 sq ft apartment and own a red foot and hingeback. but I planned to be able to have room for a large enclosure for each.

So, I formally and publicly appologize to Marty for offending her. It was not my intent. but I also still believe 15 is to young to own a sulcata.
I just wanted to voice an option. A sulcata is alot of responsibility and while its no big deal now, in a couple of years....


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## Marty333 (Nov 24, 2010)

Thank you Laura and Kenny even though you may not care about my forgiveness I forgive you. I understand I am just a teenager so my emotions are high. Also I am going to attend for sure my local college UCF (GOOO KNIGHTS!). I will be staying home because I have no desire to move due to my anxiety disorder. Hopefully when I graduate I would have saved up enough money to buy a small piece of land and a old little RV  So Chevy can have all the land he desires. Also have a happy thanksgiving trip


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## Kenny (Nov 24, 2010)

Marty333 said:


> Thank you Laura and Kenny even though you may not care about my forgiveness I forgive you. I understand I am just a teenager so my emotions are high. Also I am going to attend for sure my local college UCF (GOOO KNIGHTS!). I will be staying home because I have no desire to move due to my anxiety disorder. *Hopefully *when I graduate I would have saved up enough money to buy a small piece of land and a old little RV  So Chevy can have all the land he desires. Also have a happy thanksgiving trip




This has been my point Marty. "Hopefully". School is expensive, and plans never go exactly how they're supposed to.
I really hope you prove me wrong. but the point was simply that a Russian wouldn't become a burden, or get in the way.

I should have been more tactful, but the point remains the same.
However, my opinion/point doesn't matter right now.
Get Chevy taken care of. good luck.

I appreciate you maturity and forgiveness here, and sincerely do once again appologize for offending/angering/irritating you.


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## Sweetness_bug (Nov 24, 2010)

Hi Kenny;

Hope you are doing well today. I have been following the thread for both this and with the other. I just wanted to add my two cents. You have a right for your opinion and to share it. Thats your opinion and thats fine. However mine varies a little so i would like to share my thoughts/opinion. Marty is doing everything in her pwer and has been since day one for Chevy. Yes she may be young, and not yet get the resposibility of a sulcatta tortoise. However Life is to short what ifs. I am a home owner with a large fenced in yard..But like anyone i can loose my home and any point in time due to financial issues. i can make other arrangements for my sulcata chewy however the person who agreed to take him may not aroung when that happens or what if they loose there home..or what if once they have him can not afford to feed him cause hes so large. You cant go by what ifs. You have to live life to your fullest and share and learn in expierences.

Everyone who has adopted a tortoise has every intention on keeping them and taking care of them and has some game plan for there life at the time they buy it. However life throws curve balls and sometimes plan change..Doesnt mean that they shouldnt have gotten a tort..they shouldnt have love it. Hopefully if they can no longer care for it they do the resposible thing and g find someone who can. ( ihave adopted all my torts and animals) Marty has shown no sign of not being able to care for the tortoise. She loves cheevy and you see that in her pics and her posts and deserves to have him. hopefully her plans work out and hopefully Chevy makes it. But a sick hatchling can happen to anyone not just a 15 year old. We all make mistakes and learn from them its called life and it makes us set new goals and helps us learn to do things differently. If no one took chances than alot of things in life wouldnt be here and it would be pretty dull.

I appreciate you apologizing to Mary about how your post came across. We all know your not a bad guy and people need to understand its a forum and everyone can post there opinion no matter how wrong or right. It makes for a great discussion.

Have a happy thanksgiving Kenny! Enoy your day and look forward to talking with you again soon


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## Kenny (Nov 24, 2010)

I dunno, I geuss we can chalk this up to me being a planner.
I know that lives can change over-night, but I think that their still needs to be a plan in place. I think when purchasing/adopting a sulcata the consumer needs to thoroughly think through what owning one intails.
Not that a Russian doesnt take planning, but its a little more forgiving then a sulcata if plans were to fall through.

On a personal level; I would never consider owning an animal like a sulcata, until I had a home and financial stability.

I'd just like to add that I don't think this is about Marty anymore. It's really more about whether or not a teenager (in general)should have a pet that requires large property. and I don't mean that arguementatively.


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## Maggie Cummings (Nov 24, 2010)

We are all entitled to our opinion but I am real sorry Kenny decided to express his at a point in Katerina's life when something she loves is in a life and death battle THRU NO FAULT OF KATERINA'S. Since she has joined TFO I have noticed how mature she is and have been in agreement with most of the advice she offers. She has become an active participating member, offering advice to other young and new members and I think it is a horrific thing that is happening to Chevy. She has him set up nicely and takes care of him just like us older more experienced keepers. She has showed pictures of her habitat and has told us just how she keeps him and I in no way think that his sickness is her fault.
I just think that Kenny picked an awful time to show such disrespect to another TFO member. I think that Katerina keeping a Sulcata is none of his business.
Why does Kenny think it's alright for him to tell another person what they should or shouldn't have. Who is Kenny to make that decision about another person?
I am a disabled old lady with only one working hand and I have an 80 pound Sulcata would you say I shouldn't have him?


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## Kenny (Nov 24, 2010)

Maggie: with all due respect, I would have said the samething to anyone regardless of age. you're being disabled and elderly has nothing to do with if u can care for the Torts, unless of course you're disabled to the point of not being able to feed/water/clean them. Does your sulcata have a backyard? does it have alot of room? did you have a house wen u got it? if the answers are no then, NO you should not have/have had a sulcata
I have no problem defending my opinions, but if u look back I appologized to Marty for my poor timing and tact. I will however, NOT appologize for my opinion. It's fantastic how much she loves her sulcata, and how much she knows about it, but its not by any means an Ideal fit. If a random well educated, passionate 15 year old joined tomorrow, and expressed interest in getting a sully, would you encourage them ? if so why ?
I think it's safe to say that you would not. I think you would tell them to start with something smaller, that a sully is not a good tort for a 15 year old.
the point is that YES, my timing was bad, but suggesting that I'm being a bully, and that there is no validity to my point is just wrong.
I will challenge anyone here if I think they're in trouble. Not to start a fight but to start a discussion(which is why we are all here)


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## moswen (Nov 24, 2010)

i thought we were all here to help out other tortoise keepers in need... maybe you oughtta set me right though kenny.


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## Marty333 (Nov 24, 2010)

I didn't just randomly pick a sully I planned on getting a Sulcata. I prefer them from their behavior, size, and care. I knew they were going to get big and I was ready for that. We have another piece of property for our greys so I know when Chevy got bigger I could make him a home on that property. I prefer larger torts in my opinion and I have no desire to really get a russian. Why buy a species of tort that I really don't want instead of the one i prefer maybe in the far future I will get a russian but why should I have to start out with one?


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## Maggie Cummings (Nov 24, 2010)

Kenny said:


> Maggie: with all due respect, I would have said the samething to anyone regardless of age. you're being disabled and elderly has nothing to do with if u can care for the Torts, unless of course you're disabled to the point of not being able to feed/water/clean them. Does your sulcata have a backyard? does it have alot of room? did you have a house wen u got it? if the answers are no then, NO you should not have/have had a sulcata
> I have no problem defending my opinions, but if u look back I appologized to Marty for my poor timing and tact. I will however, NOT appologize for my opinion. It's fantastic how much she loves her sulcata, and how much she knows about it, but its not by any means an Ideal fit. If a random well educated, passionate 15 year old joined tomorrow, and expressed interest in getting a sully, would you encourage them ? if so why ?
> I think it's safe to say that you would not. I think you would tell them to start with something smaller, that a sully is not a good tort for a 15 year old.
> the point is that YES, my timing was bad, but suggesting that I'm being a bully, and that there is no validity to my point is just wrong.
> I will challenge anyone here if I think they're in trouble. Not to start a fight but to start a discussion(which is why we are all here)



I did not suggest that you were a bully, nor did I suggest that your opinion had no validity. But I did come right out and say that Katerina keeping a Sulcata was none of your business...


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## franeich (Nov 24, 2010)

All this from some one living in an apartment keeping his poor torts inside. Not outdoors where they belong.


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## Sweetness_bug (Nov 24, 2010)

Marty333 said:


> I didn't just randomly pick a sully I planned on getting a Sulcata. I prefer them from their behavior, size, and care. I knew they were going to get big and I was ready for that. We have another piece of property for our greys so I know when Chevy got bigger I could make him a home on that property. I prefer larger torts in my opinion and I have no desire to really get a russian. Why buy a species of tort that I really don't want instead of the one i prefer maybe in the far future I will get a russian but why should I have to start out with one?



I started off with a sully...I agree go with what you want!! Not something to get you by. Good point,


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## John (Nov 24, 2010)

I'm going too throw my 2 cents in I think any pet has its ups and downs and different level of responsibility.and each person who decides too take on a responsibility,if they way it out and truly feel they can handle it there age does not matter.my son is 11 and can not only out snake hunt probably anyone on the forum,but he also cares for my pythons,because he wants too,it makes him happy.i personally waited too get into tortoises for several resons im not gonna bore you with.I'm gonna end with this though i frequently go too reptile shows, and watch all the different reptiles leaving in their little plastic coffins.chevy as far as im concerned is in very capable hands,this girls presence on this forum alone shows more commitment then most people have,i wish here luck,and if it doent work out.get right back on that horse,and try again! good luck john


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## Livingstone (Nov 24, 2010)

Kenny said:


> Ok, I'm really not trying to start a Flame war here.
> 
> My point was this:
> there are alot of tortoises available in the pet trade. Sulcata should be reserved (imo) for keepers who own property , not for children.



Take it easy there. Some if us do quite well raising sully's inside. Success with tortoises has nothing to do with indoor or outdoor, so do yourself a favor and drop that. Anybody can replicate an outdoor environment inide, zoo's raise aldabs inside, if you're looking for an example. 

Raising hatchlings is about regulating stress, and trauma. While an owner may think its cute to pick up a tortoise and move it around from location to location or put it on the back of a dog. That animal is experiencing tremendous amounts of stress, and as we all know stress equals sick. That is where raising a tortoise is different for an adult and a child. A child (for the most part) does not understand that the "love" they are showing the animal actually causes more damage than leaving the animal alone to do its thing. 

The only thing an owner should be doing is feeding and soaking. Tortoises dont need human interaction.


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## coreyc (Nov 24, 2010)

Ok Here's my two cent I personally think it does not matter what it is a dog cat snake or tortoise if you do not have the means to properly take care of it food vet care space what ever it takes to care the animals don't get it there are to many pets people get only to find out they bit off more than they can chew and whine up getting rid of people need to think it trough before making a life long commitment


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## Kenny (Nov 24, 2010)

Ok, I'm obviously wrong in all you're eyes, and thats fine. I did however state from the very begining that this is MY OPINION.

Moswen: yes, we are all here to help. And what I did was suggest an option based on my opinion. never said if she didn't take it she was wrong, I just made a suggestion.

Maggie: This is a public forum. I have a right to express an opinion. I'm not telling her shes poorly caring for her animal, I'm giving her my opinion.


Franeich: I dont keep large torts, I keep small to moderately sized torts that do well inside. If you think I'mkeping my animals poorly, I encourage you to share your opinions and suggestions with me.

Squamata: I agree, alttoa pets reptile and otherwise are sold to young children that have no business owning them. My comments towards Marty were not suggesting she was one of those children. just that I thought she seemed in over her head.

Livingstone: I'm not saying that a sully absolutely can not be kept indoors, I'm saying that a plan needs to be made before obtaining an animal such as a sulcatta. and as far as a 15 year old high school student, that plan can not be put in place IMO.

Look, I'm not looking for a fight here. But apparantly I'm getting one, so I'll end on this.
I was wrong in the context that I made my statement. I was wrong to single out Marty. I should have started a seperate thread , with no names mentioned, and for that I'm sincerely sorry. Not because I'm under fire, I enjoy the discussion end of it, But because I presented my opinion poorly, in effect upsetting a 15 year old girl with the best intentions. Marty, I screwed up and for that I am sorry.
But I do think this is a valid discussion topic. I think the heat on me is due to how I went about adressing this topic (rightfully so).
I realise that the post that started all of this sounded worse then I intended it to be, and thats on me. But I've tried to be as clear in my tone as possible since then. I'm not trying to be arguementative, just trying to be clear as to where I'm coming from.
My opinions are my opinions, they matter to me and whomever wants to invest in them. That doesn't make them right, that doesn't make them wrong..they're just opinions.


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## onarock (Nov 24, 2010)

This is insane. The discussions tha I read on this forum when people need help is incredible. A young woman/girl joinded the forum is raising a tortiose. This tortoise is having a medical issue and the girl needs help. Instead of offering advice or sharing experience to her, we are now in a debate over who should and shouldnt raise tortoises and wich ones they can and cant raise. I made some calls on Martys behalf to vets in the Orlando area to see if anyone does payment plan or pro-bono work and got some good results, hopefully Marty runs with it. I got an idea for all of you in the lower 48. How about this, in responce to what I've been reading... I dont think any of you in the lower 48 should keep tortoises that dont hibernate. If people are of the opinion that keeping tortoises is a matter of age and physics then I take it a step further and say its also a matter of geography. If you live where it gets cold below 63 degrees at night or durring the day then you have no business keeping tortoises that arent CDT or other hibernating species. I leave you with that ..... from my house that never and I mean never gets cold, a fond Aloha


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## John (Nov 24, 2010)

this is heading too a debate on wether the pet trade should exsist at all,and that will be a long debate im sure,i think we should go with onarock,and focus on helping this tortoise. happy thanksgiving all thanks john


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## Becki (Nov 24, 2010)

Just speaking as a parent...if I allow my child to purchase or adopt a pet then I know it is ultimately MY RESPONSIBILITY. After all as parents we have the means/money to provide for it and hopefully the insight and experience to step in if there's a problem.


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## Marty333 (Nov 24, 2010)

Hey Onarock I called some vets sadly they are all closed until Friday or Saturday that Kirkman vet sounds promising so I hope to call him on Friday


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## onarock (Nov 24, 2010)

Marty333 said:


> Hey Onarock I called some vets sadly they are all closed until Friday or Saturday that Kirkman vet sounds promising so I hope to call him on Friday



Well do what you can and tell them what your situation is. Be upfront and tell them you cant pay for this, but your willing to work something out. Most vets are animal lovers and they just might respect your honesty. Its all you can do right now unless you can convince your dad otherwise. I knew a person a long time ago that was in a similar situation your in but with a barn owl. It needed help and he had no money. He ended up trading work at the vet for vet services and now hes a vet. Dont be afraid to ask the worse thing that can happen is they'll say no. Just keep him warm and hydrated untill Friday then get on the phone and work some magic. Its been done before. Good luck


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## Yvonne G (Nov 24, 2010)

I would like everyone to step back and to remember that Laura posted this thread in the *Debatable Topics* forum. We're not here to debate Kenny, or Katerina or any ONE PERSON. 

I personally was thinking along Kenny's lines long before he ever said anything about it. He's a bigger man than I was because he brought it all out into the open. 

I don't think baby tortoises should be handled all that much. And I think that Chevy's eyes being closed in so many pictures truly show that he was starting to become pretty stressed out.

This is all water under the bridge now. Katerina is doing the best she or anyone else can do to bring Chevy back to health, and hopefully she will be able to find a vet that will take a look at the tortoise and not charge Katerina an arm and a leg to do it.

Kenny, please don't think that you've done anything wrong. You've admitted to an error in judgment, but the overall post was not in error, in my opinion. I'm sure there were more of us that wanted to say something about it and didn't have the guts.

Katerina, do your best with Chevy. We're all in your corner. I only wish I lived closer so I could be of more assistance to you.


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## Marty333 (Nov 24, 2010)

So I have been hearing how you say in most of the pics I have of Chevy his eyes are closed. Well I looked through all my Chevy pictures I've posted and only a handful of them his eyes are closed. The recent ones yes his eyes are closed because he has been sick. Just my thought


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## Tom (Nov 24, 2010)

Certainly everyone is entitled to their opinion, but no one should be getting upset if someone else's opinion is that they don't like your opinion.

I was working in the retail pet trade at the tender age of 14 and telling adults how to house and care for a multitude of animals, including reptiles and fish. I was keeping and breeding my own aquarium fish at age thirteen. I had no help from my parents, in fact I had to fight with them just to be ALLOWED to do it on my own. We're talking big tanks 100-135 gallons. I got my first sulcata at 19. I was living at home, going to a local Junior college, and working full time at another pet shop.

It worked out just fine for me and my torts and I think things are going to work out just fine for Katerina too. IF (big IF) Chevy doesn't make it, it will have nothing to do with Katerina's age.

Tortoises live for so long that no plan is going to last as long as our relationships with them. Sounds to me like Katerina has as good a plan as anyone I know.


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## Laura (Nov 24, 2010)

THis topic could go all sorts of ways with hundreds of opinions. I put it out there to open up discussion and to make people think.. 
1. Animal Shelters are FULL of dogs from people who have every excuse under the sun. Too large, too wild, no time, moving, going away to school etc.. so its not just torts that people make un educated or bad decisions with. 
2. owning warm weather animals in cold climates.. something to consider as well. Dont be selfish. 
3. age of owner. Torts live a long time. As long as you make as best plans as possible and be realistic. ( reality Sucks sometimes) and have back up plans or some sort of plan.
4. Cost.. life can change at the drop of a hat.. but you really need to have some sort of stability in order to give proper care. Save for a rainy day. 

5.age#2.. You are an adult at 18. Under that... your parents are responsible for you and your animals care. If it needs vet care, the parent needs to provide it. If you want to make your child responsible to pay you back, payment plan, chores etc.. and make it a learning lesson. GREAT! kids need to learn that.. but the animal should not suffer because the Kid cant afford it. If YOU cant.. then chose a different pet.. all part of the learning lesson.. 

Kenny I agree with most of your opinions.. I see way too much, and just dont get what people are thinking half the time.. just look at Craigs List and see all the dogs needing homes and the excuses people make.. and the animals suffer for it.. 

No one was being singled out.. it was the timing that made it look like it.. but i just wanted to Use it to start a discussion.. We are all here to learn and support.. and we are learning from this as well. 
now.. Go Over the River and thru the woods, to grand mas house.. or where ever you are going for the Holidays and have SAFE travels. everyone!!


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## John (Nov 24, 2010)

children would not have reptiles nor would any of us,if they werent taken from there habitat's for profit.my position is simple i agree with both sides,she may be in over her head do too money and logistics,but she's inteligent and responsible enough too seek information.and went far enough too find the right place for it.i was 5 when my parents took me too get a goldfish,i insisted on a newt,his name was skippy and he didnt live long,but that was the beginning,i was 8 when i caught my first eastern milk snake,he lived a little longer than skippy,and i learned.the thing is if this girl didnt have this tortoise it might be in a fish tank of water somewhere with a slider,so save the tort and dont discourage the girl.this forum can't provide good homes for all out there but it can help the lucky ones. just my opinion good luck john


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## Kristina (Nov 24, 2010)

I'll be honest too, and it was hard for me to say something myself. In the end, I decided to take the risk that I would offend Katerina, and posted my opinion that Chevy was being handled too much and that he was stressed and tired.

I don't have a lot of experience with baby tortoises. But I do have experience with sick and stressed animals, of all kinds, babies too, and that is what the pictures showed me. Part of it was the closed eyes. The other part was just gut feeling that something was "off" with Chevy.

Katerina has learned a hard lesson. *I* feel guilty because if I had said something sooner, maybe Chevy wouldn't have gotten to this point. 

I think what all of us need to understand is that sometimes, things are going to be said that you don't like. You might feel insulted. But what you need to figure out is what the INTENT of the person saying that hurtful thing is - is it TRULY to be hurtful, or are they actually trying to help?

Not everyone is born with the tact handbook hanging from our wrist. We all speak to each other through pure text - it is very hard to convey tone. I have taken things the wrong way when people have meant absolutely no harm. I jumped all over Tom once because I thought he was jumping on me, and I was very wrong. It has happened the other way around too. People thought I was jumping on them, when really I was just maybe in a hurry and trying to get some info posted really fast and didn't "buffer" what I was saying enough. Or they just misunderstood. 

I don't think that everyone of a specific age should be painted with the same brush. I was 12 when I started this hobby. I did some things I shouldn't have (letting Gomer roam around my room, exposing him to my dog, and using a heat rock mainly.) But I cared enough that I started doing some major research, built a website about tortoise care and now here I am 17 years later. I spent time every night at 12 yrs. old cutting up his dinner, I built his outdoor pen by myself, he came with me when I moved out, and even though my daughter was only 3 when he was killed by a predator, she remembers me taking care of him. 

Then again, NOT all children are that responsible. Katie (my youngest) helps me take care of her baby Box turtle, Tiffany. MacKenzie (my oldest) hasn't even named hers. Would I plop a tortoise in Mac's room and say here, take care of this? Absolutely not. How about Katie? No, because she is only seven. However, in a few years, with me checking up on her of course, would I trust her to do it? Sure. 

I know a girl that married very young (15) and moved out. She got a puppy. When they brought the puppy home, she was housebroken. Shadow (the puppy) would go sit by the door, and wait for someone to let her out. They didn't come, and finally she couldn't hold it anymore. She peed on the floor, so she was spanked. Next time, she waited by the door. They didn't come so she pooped on the floor and she was spanked. 8 months later a Cockapoo was dropped off at my doorstep (she didn't even have a name, I called her Shadow) that was such a ridiculous neurological mess that it would make you cry. If you moved to fast, she got scared and submissively urinated. She had been locked in a storage tote to keep her from going on the floor. (It was a happy ending, I had her housebroken in a week, she stopped being scared and went to live with an old man who had lost his wife, was lonely and needed a friend.)

My point? That is one person I would not allow to have a pet, no matter what their age! What about all the adults that flat out ABUSE animals? Where does age come into play there?

The purpose of this forum is to share information, and to educate. Over and over there has been the mantra of "everyone is entitled to their own opinion," which is absolutely true. I don't think what Kenny said in itself was wrong; it was his opinion. I do think the delivery was a little off. But really, are we going to ostracize someone for a mistake? Katrina accepted the apology. What else is there really to say?


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## onarock (Nov 24, 2010)

I think I was pretty clear. I called out everyone in the lower 48 who are of the opinion that tortoise keeping is for those of a certain age or those with large yards for certain species. I dont think thats right. So I'm going a step further and saying to anyone who has to move their tortoises inside and out day after day subjecting them to unnecissary stress, long term winter artificial lighting and unnatural feeding is being cruel and inhumane. Apologies or not. Kenny did apologize and I think thats great, but there are those who agreed with him that did not. Do I really think that keeping tortoises is a matter of geography? The answer is NO! I'm just trying to make a point in that tortoise keeping is for everyone not the select few. We are learning that unnatural dieting and unnatural lighting can lead to future problems and just because Martys problem is more accute doent mean young people and certain others dont have the right to keep tortoses. There is a reason that when talking about people who keep CDT at their homes tell stories of how their mom or dad or neighbor had the group or the individual for 50-60 years before they inherited it. I think its because of all the tortoises we keep we are able to keep those in a more natural environment. So, untill we all have replicas of the native lands fom wich our tortoises come from then none of us has the right to judge others. Peace


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## John (Nov 24, 2010)

kyryah said:


> I'll be honest too, and it was hard for me to say something myself. In the end, I decided to take the risk that I would offend Katerina, and posted my opinion that Chevy was being handled too much and that he was stressed and tired.
> 
> I don't have a lot of experience with baby tortoises. But I do have experience with sick and stressed animals, of all kinds, babies too, and that is what the pictures showed me. Part of it was the closed eyes. The other part was just gut feeling that something was "off" with Chevy.
> 
> ...



very well put i agree,boy im gonna learn this typing thing and you'll never shut me up.


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## dmmj (Nov 24, 2010)

I only know marty through her posts, and to be honest she seems more capable than most people i meet in my life, with that being said I wonder how it falls on the legal side, can someone under 18 purchase an animal, any animal? I am pretty sure animal shelters don't do it. O am happy he is taking responsibility, but as we always say hatchlings are not easy to keep even for experienced keepers. so now where does the legal responsibility fall, even a very capable 15 year old is still 15, not an adult, I am not trying to knock her, just trying to get a feel for the issue. How is chevy doing? I am one of these who also believe a turtle or tortoise needs to be handled as little as possible.


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## Sweetness_bug (Nov 24, 2010)

onarock said:


> This is insane. The discussions tha I read on this forum when people need help is incredible. A young woman/girl joinded the forum is raising a tortiose. This tortoise is having a medical issue and the girl needs help. Instead of offering advice or sharing experience to her, we are now in a debate over who should and shouldnt raise tortoises and wich ones they can and cant raise. I made some calls on Martys behalf to vets in the Orlando area to see if anyone does payment plan or pro-bono work and got some good results, hopefully Marty runs with it. I got an idea for all of you in the lower 48. How about this, in responce to what I've been reading... I dont think any of you in the lower 48 should keep tortoises that dont hibernate. If people are of the opinion that keeping tortoises is a matter of age and physics then I take it a step further and say its also a matter of geography. If you live where it gets cold below 63 degrees at night or durring the day then you have no business keeping tortoises that arent CDT or other hibernating species. I leave you with that ..... from my house that never and I mean never gets cold, a fond Aloha




That was awsome that you did that for her. Thank you..If i lived in FL i would have taken her myself. I am glad someone was looking out for her and Chevys best intrest. Thank you!!!


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## Livingstone (Nov 24, 2010)

onarock said:


> This is insane. The discussions tha I read on this forum when people need help is incredible. A young woman/girl joinded the forum is raising a tortiose. This tortoise is having a medical issue and the girl needs help. Instead of offering advice or sharing experience to her, we are now in a debate over who should and shouldnt raise tortoises and wich ones they can and cant raise.



*There's already a thread to save the tortoise... This isn't it. *



squamata said:


> this is heading too a debate on wether the pet trade should exsist at all,and that will be a long debate im sure,i think we should go with onarock,and focus on helping this tortoise. happy thanksgiving all thanks john



*Again, this is not the thread to save the tortoise.*



emysemys said:


> I would like everyone to step back and to remember that Laura posted this thread in the *Debatable Topics* forum. We're not here to debate Kenny, or Katerina or any ONE PERSON.
> 
> I personally was thinking along Kenny's lines long before he ever said anything about it. He's a bigger man than I was because he brought it all out into the open.



Yay!!!! Somebody else gets it. This is not the thread to save the tortoise. 




squamata said:


> children would not have reptiles nor would any of us,if they werent taken from there habitat's for profit.my position is simple i agree with both sides,she may be in over her head do too money and logistics,but she's inteligent and responsible enough too seek information.and went far enough too find the right place for it.i was 5 when my parents took me too get a goldfish,i insisted on a newt,his name was skippy and he didnt live long,but that was the beginning,i was 8 when i caught my first eastern milk snake,he lived a little longer than skippy,and i learned.the thing is if this girl didnt have this tortoise it might be in a fish tank of water somewhere with a slider,so save the tort and dont discourage the girl.this forum can't provide good homes for all out there but it can help the lucky ones. just my opinion good luck john



*When you were 8, we weren't in the information age. You couldn't google, and there weren't forums.*


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## onarock (Nov 24, 2010)

Livingstone said:


> onarock said:
> 
> 
> > This is insane. The discussions tha I read on this forum when people need help is incredible. A young woman/girl joinded the forum is raising a tortiose. This tortoise is having a medical issue and the girl needs help. Instead of offering advice or sharing experience to her, we are now in a debate over who should and shouldnt raise tortoises and wich ones they can and cant raise.
> ...



You truncated my post. I do go on to debate. I was setting up my position. I think it clear "the lower 48". I didnt debate one person I took a position against many. You should read on I have 2 or 3 on here. Yayyy!!!! Oh and if you read the other post to save the tort I posted there to. I actually made calls to Orlando from Hawaii to find a vet for said tortoise at possibly reduced, probono, or payment plan for Marty. I guess I should have just sat around and criticized. But its nice of you to show of your refereeing skills. Yay. I get it too. a hui ho


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## John (Nov 25, 2010)

onarock said:


> Livingstone said:
> 
> 
> > onarock said:
> ...



its obvious you havent been reading posts just attacking people,another sea lawyer on a soap box!go back and read the other thread, and read the title of this thread while your at it,its pretty clear it doesn't read should torts only be kept in hawaii!if you want too start a thread you enter a title in the little box,speak your piece,and then click on the little box at the bottom,am glad i could help you out with that,take care


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## Shelli (Nov 25, 2010)

I have NO idea what is going on, I read the first 5 posts on this thread.
I will come back later when I have more time to see what has happened to Chevy for him to be sick and his enclosure..
If the enclosure it good and Chevy is sick due to anything but neglect..

As far as one day maybe Marty going off to college or staying in her home town, or flying to the moon. At 15 she is old enough & seems mature enough to look after a 'tortoise'!! 
Let's face it life makes twists and turns for all of us...
I had all the best intentions in the world of living out my life in Canada but my husband got a job out of the country.
I advertised Olive and carefully went through the people that wanted to adopt her and contacted the person that really seemed to know about tortoises and who really wanted her.. 
Yes I know it's not great to have to rehome a pet,, but shi* happens..

So at the end of the day a week or two before whatever it is Marty is going to move away and go where ever it is she can't bring her 50lb sully then I'm sure she will do the best she can to find it a great home.. but in the mean time what is wrong with her raising him?

Again I don't know all the details but I don't think it's fair to say she should never have got it in the first place.. especially how much time she has put into learning about his care...


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## Marty333 (Nov 25, 2010)

I don't even know whats going on anymore..................


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## Yvonne G (Nov 25, 2010)

Well, I don't mean to put words in the OP's mouth, but I'm thinking this was supposed to be a debate about how old do we thinks kids should be in order to be able to take care of animals on their own. Should the parents still be responsible or is it all on the youngster?



My answer would be that it truly depends upon the youngster. I had three children. I wouldn't give sole responsibility of caring for a pet to any one of them. They just weren't mature enough to understand and be able to handle it. However, I DO know some youngsters who are VERY responsible and I wouldn't worry about the animal one bit in their care...just not my kids! 

And as to the other part of the equation, if a parent tells the kid that it is ok to have a pet, but the youngster has to do all the work, that's fine. I still think that when it comes to vet care the parent is responsible to pay for that. The youngster might be able to do odd jobs or save up allowance to buy food and supplies, but vet care costs a lot more than odd jobs and allowance.


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## onarock (Nov 25, 2010)

Marty333 said:


> I don't even know whats going on anymore..................



See if I can help. You posted a thread about Chevy being sick. The post started turning into a debate on what qualifies people to keep tortoises such as age, experienc, yard, ETC., ETC.. As a result, someone moved the debate part of the thread to its own thread titled
Chevy thread comments/age appropriate ETC. Now it seems there are some Johnny come lateleys that were not paying attention to your original thread or this thread. They read the tilte of this thread and leave out the ETC. part, they dont read that. I think she put the ETC. in this thread because we had been debating stuff not only pertaining to age. So now we are no longer debating "age appropriate ETC." We are now being moderated by people who just read the "age appropriate" and not the "ETC." Yay Yay. Someone finally gets it. So I dont know where its going now. I guess we have to wait untill those who moderate and those who referee read your original thread and completely read the title to this thread. Then maybe we can get back on subject. Happy Thanksgiving!! Oh wait, Sorry that wasnt appropriate for this thread there is already a thread about Thanksgiving, sorry, regards


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## Maggie Cummings (Nov 25, 2010)

I am one of those who has to bring a big tortoise back inside for the winter. I don't see that he is stressed at all. He's happy and active and still has the option to go outside most days. Here again is someone making a judgment about a situation they are not close enough to understand. I dare anyone to come and meet Bob and tell me he is stressed and unhappy. Come and see him play outside in the snow...

Then we have those who say that Chevy is stressed out and tired from being handled too much, but then they say they haven't had much experience with hatchlings.

Well, I have. I have raised many hatchlings, over one hundred I think maybe two hundred and I held and handled all of them. I rubbed their heads and pulled on their legs and if or when that hatchling had to go to the vet he didn't suck himself all in his shell like one who was never handled. He was easy to treat as he kept his legs and head out from his shell. So if you haven't raised numerous hatchlings you aren't in a position to give an educated opinion. So don't.
Those pictures of Chevy with his eyes closed are because she was just picking him up from being asleep and like I said back in the very beginning Chevy is too cold and in that situation it takes a while for the animal to get his eyes opened. Chevy is too cold.
Katerina, how is Chevy today? Why are you not giving us an update?


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## Marty333 (Nov 25, 2010)

Sorry for not a speedy update thanksgiving is a hectic day in a german household that loves food  Just posted in my original thread


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## onarock (Nov 25, 2010)

maggie3fan said:


> I am one of those who has to bring a big tortoise back inside for the winter. I don't see that he is stressed at all. He's happy and active and still has the option to go outside most days. Here again is someone making a judgment about a situation they are not close enough to understand. I dare anyone to come and meet Bob and tell me he is stressed and unhappy. Come and see him play outside in the snow...
> 
> Then we have those who say that Chevy is stressed out and tired from being handled too much, but then they say they haven't had much experience with hatchlings.
> 
> ...



Maggie if your referring to one of my posts then you did read all of my posts. If not, my apologies.


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## DeanS (Nov 25, 2010)

Maggie makes several excellent points...AS USUAL

It got into the 20s last night and I don't mind saying that Aladar spends the night in the guest bathroom...in an Extra Large VariKennel floating with Timothy Hay and an oil heater not 2 feet from the gate! The room stays about 75-80 at night and he's quite content. I'm one of those who worries about theft more than anything else so I have no problem carrying him in at night...winter, spring, summer or fall! Truth is...he's usually waiting at the side door so I only have to carry him about 20 feet I will continue this practice until he is over 100 pounds and has a harem...then I will build him a shed of some kind! But I like the idea of him being in the house! I don't care how hearty they are!

Now! I don't know what's happened to FL over the past 10 years, but when I lived in West Palm Beach, there were two seasons...December and the REST OF THE YEAR! December would chill a about 75 and that's it! Then it would go anywhere from 90 - 120...with monstrous humidity! Is Orlando cooler...what is going on ...MARKAT...weather report please! Ignore the negative criticism and embrace the constructive criticism. Your love for Chevy is already legendary! Now turn up the heat and soaks (Vitasol is a GREAT cure-all) and turn this thing around! I plan to hear about Chevy for years to come!


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## Marty333 (Nov 25, 2010)

Heres what it is right now http://www.weather.com/weather/today/Winter+Springs+FL+32708 Hopefully this winter won't be as cold as the 2008 winter!!!! got to 20 degrees here!! No snow though


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## onarock (Nov 25, 2010)

Marty333 said:


> Heres what it is right now http://www.weather.com/weather/today/Winter+Springs+FL+32708 Hopefully this winter won't be as cold as the 2008 winter!!!! got to 20 degrees here!! No snow though



Now Marty, be careful your posting updates about chevy on a debate thread. You and I know both threads are interconnected, but others do not and I dont want you to catch scoldings or sarcastic comments pertaining to you not knowing how and where to properly post your info. Yay...


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## Torty Mom (Nov 25, 2010)

Just start a new thread with updates on Chevy only! Let all this die down....


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## DeanS (Nov 25, 2010)

onarock said:


> Marty333 said:
> 
> 
> > Heres what it is right now http://www.weather.com/weather/today/Winter+Springs+FL+32708 Hopefully this winter won't be as cold as the 2008 winter!!!! got to 20 degrees here!! No snow though
> ...



I asked in the post right before hers about the weather in FL...I lived there for a few years and NEVER experienced one cold day...unless you consider 75 cold


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## Angi (Nov 25, 2010)

Onarock~I understood what you were saying. I think you have been very helpful.
Maggie~ I have seen your picture and you don't look like an old lady.
Marty~You and Chevy have become reality stars Also as I have said before I got my CDTs by accident and knew nothing (I have learned a lot) they were hatchlings and I felt like I was neglecting them if I didn't play with them and I swear they enjoyed it. I would let them walk around on the floor or in the bathtub (always supervised), I would rub thier heads and my son would let them walk around his desk while he did home work. And I am NOT young. They are a year old now and doing very well, thanks to what I have learned here. I swear they still like to be held and come towards me if they see me or hear my voice. I agree that NOBODY should get an animal without putting a lot of thought into it( I didn't take my babies to keep they needed a home and I took them and fell in love with them ) I think you put more thought into getting Chevy and caring for him than most adults I know that have gotten a pet. You also take better care of him than most adults I know. I am not talking about TFO people, but people I know in my real life not online . I plan to turn my back yard into a tortoise yard when they get bigger, but this is a scary time and I could have to move someday I hope not because like a tortoise I need a warm climate and lots of land BTW~ What are Greys?


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## Marty333 (Nov 25, 2010)

Greys are greyhounds sorry im just use to calling them greys for short


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## laura808 (Nov 25, 2010)

if you go to the vets tomorrow, please tell us how it went!


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## harris (Nov 25, 2010)

Finally someone spells grey "GREY"! It's not "gray".The way I see it at least. Anyway, this thread has seen it's day. I see a new debatable topic from this - "Pit Bulls vs Greyhounds". Which is the more abused?


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## Maggie Cummings (Nov 25, 2010)

harris said:


> Finally someone spells grey "GREY"! It's not "gray".The way I see it at least. Anyway, this thread has seen it's day. I see a new debatable topic from this - "Pit Bulls vs Greyhounds". Which is the more abused?



I went to Catholic school until I got expelled in the 8th grade and I was taught it's "gray"...


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## RianSeeking (Nov 25, 2010)

I prefer "grey."

But then, I also like 'kerb" and "in hospital".

<hides from the off topic police>


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## Torty Mom (Nov 25, 2010)

Sorry off topic, but I couldn't resist!

http://www.greyorgray.com/

yet another debate............


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## dmmj (Nov 25, 2010)

taste great? or less filling? you decide


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## stells (Nov 26, 2010)

The English way of spelling it is Grey... as the American language is English... it should also be spelt Grey there too  You also shouldn't miss U's out in words such as favourite


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## Jacqui (Nov 29, 2010)

Kenny said:


> Ok, I'm obviously wrong in all you're eyes, and thats fine. I did however state from the very begining that this is MY OPINION.



Hey, I think you have brought up some great points and are not all wrong. I do want to commend you for being brave enough to take a stand that goes against the mainstream thoughts, instead of quietly thinking them only to yourself.


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## Angi (Nov 29, 2010)

I thought the color was gray and the hound was grey. 
Marty~ Can you start a new thread telling us about the Greys?


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## Shelli (Nov 29, 2010)

Here you go Angi...Tralaaaaa
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Marty333--21073


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## ctomaselli (Nov 29, 2010)

Hello all, although I am new to this forum, I would like to put my 2 cents in this topic. My 15 year old daughter asked for a tortoise for Christmas because she saw a bunch of baby sulcatas at our local aquarium. My husband and I decided she could get one but it was her job too research. I also felt it was my responsibility to also research and verify if she was able to care for this tortoise. I raised the questions to her...
1. Who is going to care for it?
2. Where is he going to live when he starts weighing 50 lbs + as he won't fit in an enclosure?
3. Who is going to carry that monster when he gets to 100lbs and it is raining outside?

From that point on, a sulcata was out of the question, with no questions asked. Ergo, we came up with either a Russians or a Hermann.

Now, I know my daughter is 15, going to high school, no job, no money... But as a parent who approves of her getting any type of animal only means that I am financially responsible for keeping her pet healthy until she can get a job. If I don't want the financial responsibiltity, then i would have told her 'No' to begin with. We currently have a boxer dog and 2 cockatiels, and 2 aquariums and we do our best to take the best care of them. They are our family. If my kids are sick, I take them to the doctor... If my animals are sick, I take them to the vet... Simple as that... We often see a few teenagers on here and I know they do their best to take carenof their pets but it is also a parents responsibility to help their child take care of them too. I could be wrong to some people here but I do feel strongly about this with my kids. Thanks for reading.


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## travisgn (Nov 30, 2010)

It seems very simple to me. Age doesn't matter, resources matter. The only catch is that, for most sub-adults, one of your resources _is_ your parents. Not always, of course. But, if someone is 15 (or 13 or 10 or whatever) with no source of income or transportation, their parents must be willing and able to care/pay for/transport a pet. If they are not, it doesn't matter how capable the child is, they shouldn't have a pet.

At 13-15 I had a source of income of my own, and while I didn't have a car/driver's license I could easily acquire transportation to a vet or store through my older siblings or the city bus. That was me. Every case is different.

I would also suggest that this goes both ways. A couple people have brought up their view as parents: that they see themselves as ultimately responsible for their child's pets. In addition to that, I think that a mature teenager should be able to objectively determine what kind of support they can expect from their parents and make their own decision regarding getting a pet. As I already said I did not require my parents' support at 15. However, if I didn't have money and transportation of my own, I would not have considered getting a pet, because I knew that my parents were 1) not always financially capable of taking over the care of my pets, especially with regards to vet bills, and 2) not particularly fond of pets in the first place.


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