# One way to keep your baby alive -discussion thread



## Maggie Cummings (Nov 13, 2014)

I joined the Tortoise Forum in 2009. Then it was a smallish group of experienced chelonian keepers and breeders. We became very friendly group and had some good talks, and learned a lot. Then we were discovered by a bunch of new keepers who were complaining about all the contradicting info on the 'net. So we started to grow and give advice. A very tricky thing, to give advice. And we don't all agree all the time. We all have our own way of keeping our animals. Mostly in excellent enclosures, and we DO agree on the important points. Some members have experimented with closed chambers for hatching Sulcata and low and behold, pyramiding stopped. We have learned an awful lot about the disservice we were doing to our tortoises. The 'old' way was not good. So we changed it. There are hundreds of years of experience among us if you added it all up. So here's the point of this discourse. When a newbie asks for advice, then argues about it, it's very frustrating. I'll tell you why. One of the most often asked questions is...Can't I let my tortoise walk on the floor? Or in a thread we find out someone else has his tortoise on the floor with no heat, light or substrate or limits to his area, he slept on a pile of blankets.

Recently I read a thread that affected some of us experienced keepers a lot. I want to tell you newcomers about it.
Baby tortoises do not belong on the floor. They are exotic animals, not cats or dogs and simply *CAN'T *be kept like them.You cannot allow your small tortoise to wander around the floor eating dust bunnies, paper clips, bobby pins, cat or dog hair and other stuff. Plus, an uncarpeted floor is cold. Tortoises need to have an interior temperature of 80 to 85 otherwise they can't digest their food. I mean 80 degrees inside then.
So we have had many newbies argue this premise. But you can't argue this, and the poster that this happened to was a new person, she had not posted before and this is her first post...

I have a 9 week old sulcata tortoise . he is very healthy and active but about 30 minutes ago, I accidentally squashed his head with the door. I feel terrible. He wouldn't come out of his shell for about 10 minutes. Now he's out but he won't move his legs, hands or head. His eyes are open though. PLEASE HELP ME!! IS he dying? Is he gonna be okay? I'm devastated!

As an experienced keeper I know exactly what's happening and it ain't good. My heart starts to hurt.


He had is head between the door and the door frame. I didn't know he was there, so I opened the door and I think his head got caught.

It sounds to me like he was at the back of the door, between the door and the frame and she opened the door, effectively crushing his head like your fingers in a car do. The pain is immense, his head not visably squashed had to have broken bones and brain trauma. He most likely died right away. She posts a picture,he's dead. Obviously

I really hope my baby is okay. Despite the fact that he isn't moving his limbs 

If you move his legs does he try to resist or pull back?


He did at first but not anymore 


Is he responding at all? Does he blink if you touch his eyeball?
You had him loose in your house? 
If he's alive this won't hurt him, because he will blink. Its one way vets test for the level of anesthesia or to see if an animal is still alive. It doesn't work on snakes though...
Sorry this happened. We try really hard hear to warn people not to let tortoises run loose in the house. Sadly, I see this sort of thing too frequently.

He did not blink. My baby is gone 


You just read the death of a small Sulcata.

I guess chopping the thread up like this kinda takes away the effect, but I cried when I read that thread. I cried for a totally unnecessary death, and I cried for the pain the poster felt when they realized THEY killed that baby.
It was an accident, no doubt. But if the baby had been set up properly and KEPT in it's safe enclosure, it would still be alive. Kept safe, less small tortoises will die. With the number of members now on TFO we read about a lot of deaths that happen simply because the new keeper didn't know. That's mostly why we're here, to help *YOU* keep your baby alive. Listen when we tell you something, we've all been there. We learned by trial and error and you don't have to do that, you just need to listen and read and take what applies to you and use it. Ask lots of questions.

Don't allow your tortoise/turtle on the floor,
it really stresses them out.

Keep them off rabbit pellets.
Don't feed canned turtle food
Don't mix tortoises and dogs

Remember, chelonia are exotic animals with specific needs for being kept alive. Research about your species and please keep him off the floor.


----------



## Yvonne G (Nov 13, 2014)

Yes...this was a very sad post. I was all choked up when I read it too. I only hope new members will read this thread and understand the ramifications of allowing a tortoise to roam all over the house.

*I would like to caution anyone who feels a compulsion to respond to this thread: The member who lost the tortoise feels terrible. Let's don't make her feel any worse by picking apart her actions.*


----------



## Yellow Turtle01 (Nov 13, 2014)

Wow.
I'm not sure what to say! I agree 100% with this, and I feel terrible for that tortoise, because he didn't have to die, and although is was an accident, it was completely avoidable  I'm sorry for him, but that means nothing because it's done and it can't be reversed. This didn't have to and shouldn't have happened.


----------



## phebe121 (Nov 13, 2014)

Im sorry for the tort and the girl you cant leave them out or unattended if your spending time with them cool but never alone if mine are out they are always in my site so they cant get hurt


----------



## Alaskamike (Nov 13, 2014)

I wish every new tortoise owner would read this post. Not only can tragic sad accidents be avoided but the more prolonged suffering induced by unknowingly poor husbandry. 

We all love animals or would not be here on this forum. There is no doubt animals of all kinds suffer needlessly at the hands of us humans. Even the best intentioned of us have made mistakes. 

Fortunately when folks investigate this forum they already probably care more about humane proper care than the vast majority. Or they wouldn't be here asking questions. 

We will never know the real influence of those who promote great care for our shelled friends exert. How many now grow and thrive in good environments. Will live to a ripe old age.

Sometimes the corrections and advice can seem blunt and without feeling but I know the best interests of the owner and the tort are always the bottom line. 

It would be great if this info could be placed as a sticky to new members of the forum. Maybe re titled " why we give advice" 
Mike


----------



## smarch (Nov 13, 2014)

I did not read this thread, I have no idea who the poster was, but I feel the pain, that's just dreadful I cant even imagine the pain the poster feels. Its the forum that made me realize its not smart to let my guy wander the floor even if I follow and watch him every move he makes, now he's only out if he's on my chest for small periods of time, he'll stop around some and burrow right in to me and nap. 
I see this as no different than the "another dog story" thread, I think this should be pinned, it should be known, people always say that it wont happen with them, they're careful, so I think its good for it to be seen by many. As sad as it was i'm glad to have read this.


----------



## Team Gomberg (Nov 13, 2014)

I hope the people reading this story who DO let their torts roam don't say, "That won't happen to me". As this owner had to learn the hard way, it very well CAN happen if you continue to allow free house roaming. 
I hope these accidents stop happening.


----------



## dmmj (Nov 13, 2014)

Great thread maggie.
I hope people realize we do this to share our exp. so you don't have to learn the hard way, like I did.


----------



## the_newzie (Nov 13, 2014)

I'm replying to this post as a newbie. I wanted to thank all of you for taking the time and effort to share your experience and knowledge with those of us just starting in the tortoise world. I've asked a lot of questions on this forum since getting my tortoise and have received some advice that I'm convinced is the only reason I still have a living, breathing tortoise.


----------



## terryo (Nov 13, 2014)

What a great thread Maggie. I feel so bad for that person who lost her baby sulcata. I think we all know how she feels, because we've all done some wrong things at one time or another. Wow...I can't believe I joined a year before you.


----------



## AmRoKo (Nov 13, 2014)

I was upset when I had read about that baby tortoise to.


----------



## dmmj (Nov 13, 2014)

@terryo hard to believe I joined in 08, also a year before maggie.


----------



## terryo (Nov 13, 2014)

Maybe we should start a thread with all the mistakes that everyone made....or maybae we better not.
Where did everyone go David?


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Nov 13, 2014)

Remember, Crazy1, Candy and Misty?
As I remember it was Candy who always either peed her pants from reading Bob stories or she shoots coke out her nose. I always liked her...


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Nov 13, 2014)

terryo said:


> What a great thread Maggie. I feel so bad for that person who lost her baby sulcata. I think we all know how she feels, because we've all done some wrong things at one time or another. Wow...I can't believe I joined a year before you.



I lied! Look at my avatar...I joined Sept 2008, not 9....I am kinda blonde...


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Nov 13, 2014)

dmmj said:


> @terryo hard to believe I joined in 08, also a year before maggie.


A MONTH before me...


----------



## bouaboua (Nov 13, 2014)

Thank you for this reminder thread again. I read enough thread and articles in a very short period in the very early part of our chelonian keeping, One of the things is not to leave your tortoise on the floor and it make very much sense. 

This is a great place to learn and share, Specially you are a newbie. Read and learn.


----------



## terryo (Nov 13, 2014)

Oh I just looked at that thingie...I joined Aug. 2007. Candy is still around. Sad that so many people left.


----------



## bouaboua (Nov 13, 2014)

maggie3fan said:


> I lied! Look at my avatar...I joined Sept 2008, not 9....I am kinda blonde...



Let me verify with your sister....Hahaha! ! !


----------



## dmmj (Nov 13, 2014)

maggie3fan said:


> A MONTH before me...


A month, a year who;s counting?


----------



## Gillian M (Nov 13, 2014)

A heart-breaking end for poor little tort.


----------



## Ciri (Nov 13, 2014)

What a heartbreaking situation!

Perhaps there would be a way to add something to the care sheets on this website that explain more about why things need to be done a certain way. Mentioning the dangers of allowing a tortoise for turtle to be on the floor, including the danger of being electrocuted, could be helpful.


----------



## Tom (Nov 13, 2014)

phebe121 said:


> Im sorry for the tort and the girl you cant leave them out or unattended if your spending time with them cool but never alone if mine are out they are always in my site so they cant get hurt



I think you've missed the point of this thread. The lesson is not to keep a close eye on your tortoise while it roams free in the house. This ends in disaster for too often even for people who are very careful.

The lesson is: *Don't let your tortoise run loose in your house.* Ever. Tortoises belong in properly designed and controlled tortoise enclosures, both indoor and out.


----------



## Prairie Mom (Nov 13, 2014)

I read the original post and feel nothing but compassion and sadness for the poster. I'm grateful commenters on the original post were sympathetic and gentle, because Yvonne is correct, the original poster could not feel worse about this.

Reading this current posting was good for me. It reminded me of the gratitude I felt/feel for joining the forum and all the life-saving advice that was quickly poured out to me. I've only been a tort keeper a couple months, guys!---I can't believe it! In my very first thread as a brand new tortoise member I was told EVERYTHING I needed to help this tortoise and keep her safe. I was immediately warned not to let my tort wander, keep my dog separated, plus essential care tips like soaking etc. You experienced tortoise keepers gave me EVERYTHING I needed! It must be hard to repeat yourselves over and over again. Please know that there are so many of us "newbies" and countless animals who are grateful.



So far, CONSTANT ADULT SUPERVISION and the use of a kiddie pool seems to have really helped us feel like we are keeping our tortoise protected when we remove her from her enclosure to interact with her. Our tortoise seems to like getting petted and spending this time with us. I'm open to any thoughts or helpful criticisms if my methods are incorrect...


----------



## smarch (Nov 14, 2014)

I also have a comment for those like me who see the tortoise as more of a pet than wild animal, I know there's people who feel both ends of that. 
Speaking from someone with a Russian tortoise, and likes to spend time with him, I still take him out of his "home," and others still can too, I have one of the plastic totes, like under the bed height and still quite large, it used to have mulch (until I witnessed the cat, right in front of me pee in it... and it was covered when Franklin wasnt in it) So now I have a microfiber type bath mat (not one of those with the fuzzies) and cover up a side by sliding an old shirt onto one end as a make shift hide. I call it his "mobile home" is what he goes to the vet in too-trauma free. He doesn't use it often, but when I do it is for a movie night or something and i'll put him on me and he'll nap... or turn around and stare at the TV, I know he cant "watch" TV but he sure seemed to enjoy the colors and sounds of Ice Age! Then if I have to get up or he's antsy that night and I assume being on me is stress, he gets put into the enclosure that s usually sitting next to me, then he'll just sit watch or plunk into a corner or hide if its a scary movie: I swear this dude is a movie fanatic even if he isn't really watching the reactions to similar movies are similar! I mean I know of no one who does this, but we do, not often of course, in fact the only time I've done it this semester of school was Halloween night. But I mean there are safe ways to be with your tort than to let him wander the floor. 
Instead of telling people not to (since many may not listen) this seems like a good suggestion, bring the tortoise safe out to you in a small controlled area.


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Nov 14, 2014)

smarch said:


> I also have a comment for those like me who see the tortoise as more of a pet than wild animal, I know there's people who feel both ends of that.
> Speaking from someone with a Russian tortoise, and likes to spend time with him, I still take him out of his "home," and others still can too, I have one of the plastic totes, like under the bed height and still quite large, it used to have mulch (until I witnessed the cat, right in front of me pee in it... and it was covered when Franklin wasnt in it) So now I have a microfiber type bath mat (not one of those with the fuzzies) and cover up a side by sliding an old shirt onto one end as a make shift hide. I call it his "mobile home" is what he goes to the vet in too-trauma free. He doesn't use it often, but when I do it is for a movie night or something and i'll put him on me and he'll nap... or turn around and stare at the TV, I know he cant "watch" TV but he sure seemed to enjoy the colors and sounds of Ice Age! Then if I have to get up or he's antsy that night and I assume being on me is stress, he gets put into the enclosure that s usually sitting next to me, then he'll just sit watch or plunk into a corner or hide if its a scary movie: I swear this dude is a movie fanatic even if he isn't really watching the reactions to similar movies are similar! I mean I know of no one who does this, but we do, not often of course, in fact the only time I've done it this semester of school was Halloween night. But I mean there are safe ways to be with your tort than to let him wander the floor.
> Instead of telling people not to (since many may not listen) this seems like a good suggestion, bring the tortoise safe out to you in a small controlled area.



Many months when I first was given Bob I "played" with him. Inside the house, on my bed and out on the lawn. I spent 70% or so of my time with him. He was about 5 pounds then. I personally think that was the start of his social personality. I'd put him on the dummy seat in my Camaro and take him places with me. I did everything wrong, I broke all the rules. But he was 5 years old, NOT a hatchling. Plus he's a Sulcata, mostly a very forgiving species. *BUT* hatchlings are hard to raise. Especially if some 'breeder' (she says sarcastically) has started them dry. I would _never_ recommend a newbie to get a hatchling.
On the other hand, there's my sister who has been involved in tortoise rescue for 35 yr or so. She breeds Leopards, and Manouria emysemys; Burmese mountain and black tortoises. Maybe just the Mountain ones. She has Aldabrans, and colonies of this and colonies of that. She has Dudley a 120 pound Sulcata, I think he's in his 20's maybe 25 or older.
The point of this is she believes chelonia are wild animals, not pets and she treats hers as such. Most of mine are pets, and we bond and they always look forward to seeing the "Food Goddess"...and guess what??? Neither of us is wrong....

signed, 
The clumsy sister


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Nov 14, 2014)

It wouldn't allow me to edit, after I ran over the 10 minute limit. Jeez I'm a slow thinker...I think the black Manouria are called "phayeri"
Her tortoises think she's the "Food Goddess" too, there's mostly just no bonding or affection. I mean no disrespect to my sister. She got me started in reptiles and taught me most of what I know and I am still learning from her. We simply treat our animals different...
"cept for her Misty...


----------



## smarch (Nov 14, 2014)

maggie3fan said:


> Many months when I first was given Bob I "played" with him. Inside the house, on my bed and out on the lawn. I spent 70% or so of my time with him. He was about 5 pounds then. I personally think that was the start of his social personality. I'd put him on the dummy seat in my Camaro and take him places with me. I did everything wrong, I broke all the rules. But he was 5 years old, NOT a hatchling. Plus he's a Sulcata, mostly a very forgiving species. *BUT* hatchlings are hard to raise. Especially if some 'breeder' (she says sarcastically) has started them dry. I would _never_ recommend a newbie to get a hatchling.
> On the other hand, there's my sister who has been involved in tortoise rescue for 35 yr or so. She breeds Leopards, and Manouria emysemys; Burmese mountain and black tortoises. Maybe just the Mountain ones. She has Aldabrans, and colonies of this and colonies of that. She has Dudley a 120 pound Sulcata, I think he's in his 20's maybe 25 or older.
> The point of this is she believes chelonia are wild animals, not pets and she treats hers as such. Most of mine are pets, and we bond and they always look forward to seeing the "Food Goddess"...and guess what??? Neither of us is wrong....
> 
> ...


 I've never had a hatchling, while I think the idea of watching them grow and all is adorable I know too much can go wrong and how delicate they are. I don't know if i'd do what I do with Nank with a hatchling, since I know the temp of the room is warm enough but humidity isn't there. 
Since Franklin's a pet store guy he was completely anti-social when I got him, and would get so scared when I even looked at him he'd poop. I used to take him out more often and "play" with him and now he's still timid but social to me, and almost only me. I've taken Nank for rides, in his "mobile home" and he's spent the night with me over a friends in that, heck he even got to visit with my friend who lives at school one day! (that was cute, she's like me and hates warm, but cranked up the heat in her apartment like crazy for him while he was "visiting" and I was in class) I'm not saying any of these were necessarily "right" but he's also become more social, not Bob social but still social. And Russians being one of the very forgiving species has probably helped (I mean really, I had him on sand and eating tomatoes the first month with him before finding this site!)
Everyone has their own right way to think of their tortoise, Franklin came into my life due to depression and wanting something to need me and not die like my fish, he's never not been a pet in my eyes, but I completely understand the natural approach I do it to all my fish, planted tanks real wood, sand. Theyre all right in my book as long as you care for them in the right and safe way, and realize they're not little teacup dress up animals... except on Halloween, then a slight costume is ok  they're not going to be trained and not going to listen to you, so yes essentially i'm loving on a wild animal but if he was still "wild" in my book he'd still poop when I look at him, now to this day he's never had an accident while on me, but I still wouldn't blame him if he did.


----------



## Gillian M (Nov 14, 2014)

A heart-breaking end for the poor tort.

Why not start a thread called "Mistakes Made By Owners Of Tortoises" like Terryo suggested? I do realize that they could hurt some people but that would NOT be their aim. Such threads would help each and everyone of us avoid such mistakes.


----------



## stojanovski92113 (Nov 14, 2014)

AmRoKo said:


> I was upset when I had read about that baby tortoise to.


I was too


----------



## ZEROPILOT (Nov 14, 2014)

It seems that a lot of us have gotten into tortoise keeping without realistic expectations of what we were getting into and not first making sure that we could provide everything needed for the very first day up to many decades later, when the animals is still alive and dependent on us. Tortoise purchasing should not be done on impulse. It should be researched to decide what would best suit your housing and environmental situation, etc.


----------



## smarch (Nov 14, 2014)

ZEROPILOT said:


> It seems that a lot of us have gotten into tortoise keeping without realistic expectations of what we were getting into and not first making sure that we could provide everything needed for the very first day up to many decades later, when the animals is still alive and dependent on us. Tortoise purchasing should not be done on impulse. It should be researched to decide what would best suit your housing and environmental situation, etc.


 I don't admit it often, but my Nank was an "impulse" pet, one day I said "I want a tortoise" less than a month later I had brought home the tank and a week later my little guy joined my family. But I realize he wasn't complete impulse buy, I did do my research, I knew tortoises got large, my Petco (I know, I know) had redfoots and Russians, it wasn't actually the size of redfoots that was the reason I ended up with a Russian, it was that they needed protein... no thank you (that opinion has changed with me wanting a bearded dragon) I got him because I had been told a 20L tank was enough for a Russian... which is still a problem since I had no room for much bigger, and still don't, so in the winter Nank lives a very boring life, and I made the Repti-Sand mistake (for less than a month before I found this forum and quickly changed that out!) But I came into it knowing he needed heat and lights, and that was right from the beginning. As a quick buy I did know he was going to be with me for life and i'd plan around him for housing and people I live with. But he was always in a proper house, though I was guilty of letting him run on the floor (while being watched of course) and the entire yard (also supervised/followed) he now goes into our old sandbox when he's outside (its grown weeds its been unused so long) this coming summer that box is getting dirt and a top so he can stay out all day. Sometimes people who buy on impulse turn things around, heck Nank is happy as ever even though he's not in the greatest current house (think of where he could be though!) I never think anything about people who buy on "impulse" here since they're here, they will learn  literally this place is most certainly the reason I still have a living breathing tort!


----------



## ascott (Nov 15, 2014)

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/mary-anne-must-be-dehydrated.36385/

Maggie, I believe you referred earlier to Mary Anne/Torty Mom, aka; piddle pants....lol....I do miss her.


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Nov 16, 2014)

ascott said:


> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/mary-anne-must-be-dehydrated.36385/
> 
> Maggie, I believe you referred earlier to Mary Anne/Torty Mom, aka; piddle pants....lol....I do miss her.



Oh my gosh yes, Lordy she was funny. I miss all the laughing from that group. Wonder what happened to make her leave TFO?


----------



## ascott (Nov 16, 2014)

maggie3fan said:


> Oh my gosh yes, Lordy she was funny. I miss all the laughing from that group. Wonder what happened to make her leave TFO?




If I recall correctly...that was about the time things began to become a little snarky here on the Forum.....also, she did teaching and a bunch of other stuff that took up time....????


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Nov 17, 2014)

ascott said:


> If I recall correctly...that was about the time things began to become a little snarky here on the Forum.....also, she did teaching and a bunch of other stuff that took up time....????



Snarky here ? No...!
Or was it when that guy from Hawaii who took offence at my Dale Earnhardt Fear 3 flag he said was a Confederate flag and I was insulting them all by having a sign of racism. Stupid. It's NASCAR for pete's sake, not civil rights or lack of same...


----------



## Yvonne G (Nov 17, 2014)

I think it all started with Maryanne when her close friend and neighbor became very ill. She had to care for her and didn't have much time after that for the Forum.


----------



## Princessjay (Nov 17, 2014)

Is it ok to let them wander around even if they are fully supervised? I cordon off an area in my flat (my flat is really warm above 22 degrees most of the time) and always keep an eye on her. She loves exploring and looking at things. She likes climbing over the door stop and back again (quite entertaining to watch), I put her climbing toys and I think she really enjoys it. I never let her out of my sight even for a moment and its never for more than 30 mins a day.

Is this ok? If I need to leave to room, I put her back in her enclosure. I find when she is inside her enclosure she just lies there or goes to sleep. Ive checked the temperature, enclosure set up (including size its quite big) but she just seems to love wandering around my living room.


----------



## Yvonne G (Nov 17, 2014)

A lot of the time, when you see a lot of activity out of the tortoise when it's let loose, it's because they are afraid. They scurry around trying to find a safe place to be.

If you set up a little "exercise" area on the floor...someplace fenced in where the tortoise is confined to that one area, it would be ok. But I wouldn't allow the tortoise to be free in the house under any circumstances.


----------



## Tom (Nov 17, 2014)

Princessjay said:


> Is it ok to let them wander around even if they are fully supervised? I cordon off an area in my flat (my flat is really warm above 22 degrees most of the time) and always keep an eye on her. She loves exploring and looking at things. She likes climbing over the door stop and back again (quite entertaining to watch), I put her climbing toys and I think she really enjoys it. I never let her out of my sight even for a moment and its never for more than 30 mins a day.
> 
> Is this ok? If I need to leave to room, I put her back in her enclosure. I find when she is inside her enclosure she just lies there or goes to sleep. Ive checked the temperature, enclosure set up (including size its quite big) but she just seems to love wandering around my living room.



Do you have a temp gun? Take a reading on your floor when the room temp is 22.


To answer your question, no. Its not safe for them to roam around loose. Even when supervised. There are too many hazards and even the most vigilant person with the best of intentions will relax over time and become more complacent. Just not worth the risk.

Why do you feel the need to let your tortoise roam? Is it because the enclosure "feels" too small? I would direct all that time and effort into making the enclosure bigger and better. Make it huge. Add hills and valleys. Potted plants, rocks and logs. Your tortoise will _feel_ safer and _be_ safer in its own enclosure with the proper amenities and temperatures.


----------



## stinax182 (Nov 17, 2014)

I posted something similar to this on groups of Facebook. If you think people on here argue, check out those groups. The question asked most often there is 'can i keep this species with this species?' D:


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Nov 17, 2014)

stinax182 said:


> I posted something similar to this on groups of Facebook. If you think people on here argue, check out those groups. The question asked most often there is 'can i keep this species with this species?' D:



I personally don't think we argue. We may have difference's of opinion, we each have our own way of doing the same thing. I believe we are respectful (except for me at times) and informative. But I know us old timers are here for one reason, to help keep tortoises alive, and I like to show off Bob...


----------



## dmmj (Nov 17, 2014)

maggie3fan said:


> I personally don't think we argue.


I was going to argue against this, but changed my mind.


----------



## Princessjay (Nov 17, 2014)

Oki I got 2 conflicting opinions there.... Is it ok with an enclosure or not at all?

When she wanders around it is always in an enclosure and she has a few things to climb over. The enclosure is 5 foot, and given she is the size of a 50p it is more than big enough. She just doesn't seem to.be very active in it....


----------



## Tom (Nov 17, 2014)

dmmj said:


> I was going to argue against this, but changed my mind.



Take the argument to FB.


----------



## Tom (Nov 17, 2014)

stinax182 said:


> I posted something similar to this on groups of Facebook. If you think people on here argue, check out those groups. The question asked most often there is 'can i keep this species with this species?' D:



Where is the argument? The answer is always no.


----------



## dmmj (Nov 17, 2014)

@Princessjay , If your tortoise is in an enclosure, it's not in the open, it is in a secure tortoise enclosure, just bigger. If I am understanding you correctly.


----------



## stinax182 (Nov 17, 2014)

My bad, argue is the word i would use for Facebook..... We do not argue here and i love that. We debate! Right now I'm being cussed at for telling someone the cons of buying from a pet store.... It's sad.


----------



## Princessjay (Nov 17, 2014)

dmmj said:


> @Princessjay , If your tortoise is in an enclosure, it's not in the open, it is in a secure tortoise enclosure, just bigger. If I am understanding you correctly.



Oki let me re phrase..... She has a fully set up enclosure, but every now and then I let her wander around a warm room in a cordoned off area on a clean floor fully supervised with her climbing bits and hide on the floor. She is more active outside her enclosure than in. She is never Alone and I'm always watching her (I love watching her; it's just really cute to see her waddle).


----------



## Princessjay (Nov 17, 2014)

Ps I don't think people argue here, but if u ask a question side people make you feel stupid and bully across the opinion. A lot of us are learning and its better to ask and be told (nicely) that maybe it isn't advisable.

The so called old timers should be happy that there are ppl who want the best for their tortoises and asking the questions in the right place rather than just making mistakes.


----------



## dmmj (Nov 17, 2014)

All I can say is I wouldn't do it, you have to weigh the risk of your tortoise getting hurt due to an accident. Feel free to ask more questions, if you want to.


----------



## Tom (Nov 17, 2014)

Princessjay said:


> Oki let me re phrase..... She has a fully set up enclosure, but every now and then I let her wander around a warm room in a cordoned off area on a clean floor fully supervised with her climbing bits and hide on the floor. She is more active outside her enclosure than in. She is never Alone and I'm always watching her (I love watching her; it's just really cute to see her waddle).



What does "cordoned off" mean to you? Is it some sore of enclosure where people don't tread? If people walk there, or there are doors or electrical cords there, or you didn't sweep and vacuum there, etc..., its not safe. Also, do you have a temp gun. What is the temperature of the floor there?


----------



## Tom (Nov 17, 2014)

stinax182 said:


> Right now I'm being cussed at for telling someone the cons of buying from a pet store.... It's sad.



That's what you get for trying to help someone NOT kill their animal because of bad advice...

Human nature will never cease to amaze me.


----------



## Princessjay (Nov 17, 2014)

Oki no worries shall avoid doing it. Cordoned off means noone walks there and given I live in an apartment with just my hubby I can guarantee it.

But no I dnt have a temp gun. Only reason I ask is because I was told a tort needs to be kept warm somy mistake in assuming a warm room would be ok.


----------



## Tom (Nov 17, 2014)

Princessjay said:


> Oki no worries shall avoid doing it. Cordoned off means noone walks there and given I live in an apartment with just my hubby I can guarantee it.
> 
> But no I dnt have a temp gun. Only reason I ask is because I was told a tort needs to be kept warm somy mistake in assuming a warm room would be ok.



The word "warm" is so subjective. What is warm to someone from North Dakota in the winter is not warm to someone from Hawaii. Your floor might be warm enough. Most are not, but only a thermometer of some sort will answer that.


----------



## Princessjay (Nov 17, 2014)

Warm being per the guidance found on here. So never below 22-25 degrees. My apartment has amazing capability of staying warm. Her enclosureis 32 degrees at the hot point, 25 at the lowest.


----------



## ascott (Nov 17, 2014)

Princessjay said:


> Oki let me re phrase..... She has a fully set up enclosure, but every now and then I let her wander around a warm room in a cordoned off area on a clean floor fully supervised with her climbing bits and hide on the floor. She is more active outside her enclosure than in. She is never Alone and I'm always watching her (I love watching her; it's just really cute to see her waddle).



Sounds good to me ....if the situation warrants this for exercise (due to bad weather outside or the like) then go for it --supervised and all.....I also would offer up a warm up station/spot within the secure exercise zone for the tort so that the tort can have ability to warm/juice up to keep on running about....


----------



## Alaskamike (Nov 18, 2014)

I know I'm a bit of an eccentric, but I allow my torts to roam a large lanai about every other day. It is 2k sq' with a pool. Lots of potted plants, lawn furniture, my sandels, etc. even though my youn 'uns have reasonably large outside enclosures ( 10'x10' ). 

There are 2 reasons for this. The purely selfish one is I enjoy seeing them eat and do their ' walkabouts'. It entertains me 

The more practical reason is exersize. Especially with the 2 lb sulcata and 2 lb Aldabra. They really put on the miles some days . I do not leave them unsupervised , sweep it often, and keep my cat & dog in when I do this. And yes, I had a young leopard walk right into the pool - twice ! ( I called him Dunk after that). 

A temp gun is a must for this where I live. I only do this on sunny days, and when my paving bricks are between 80-95f. 

I believe this is good for them - makes them stronger. We all make choices. There is a caution against taking your tort out in an open yard to graze for instance , as many have turned away for just a moment and lost ' em, but some are very successful with this. There is a video on U tube somewhere of an elderly man who takes his 100lb+ sulcata on a daily mile walk around his neighborhood. No leash. The sully just follows him. Go figure. 

I think the important thing is to really think about the advice and experiences of others and make an intelligent informed choice. No one is dictating here. There are no " bosses" of tort care. And you will find disagreement. That's okay 
Good fortune with yours
Mike


----------



## stinax182 (Nov 18, 2014)

Princessjay said:


> Warm being per the guidance found on here. So never below 22-25 degrees. My apartment has amazing capability of staying warm. Her enclosureis 32 degrees at the hot point, 25 at the lowest.




The temp you really need to check is the floor because heat rises. A house thermostat doesn't temp the floor so whatever the temp is for you, it may still be cooler on the ground. My floor is always colder.... Too cold for my torts.


----------



## smarch (Nov 19, 2014)

stinax182 said:


> My bad, argue is the word i would use for Facebook..... We do not argue here and i love that. We debate! Right now I'm being cussed at for telling someone the cons of buying from a pet store.... It's sad.


 My guy being from a pet store, I tell people the cons and possibilities, but also tell them that they're not all that bad as long as you're willing to take the risks and spend more in the long run if something is wrong. Turned out Nank was completely healthy, and I know it was luck.
I did used to be one of those "why are pet stores so bad" people, but after personally seeing my cousin adopt a guy who developed an abscess in the first month and pass away at the "vet" I understood, and people on this forum helped, but I now gives cons and tell people if they still want to at least you knew, because I didn't, but at the same time with Nank's personality I'm glad it was him who came home with me


----------



## Tom (Nov 19, 2014)

stinax182 said:


> The temp you really need to check is the floor because heat rises. A house thermostat doesn't temp the floor so whatever the temp is for you, it may still be cooler on the ground. My floor is always colder.... Too cold for my torts.



My thoughts exactly. If the room temp in the apt. is 22, I'll bet the floor is significantly cooler.

Check your floor temp Princess Jay, not the air temp 5 feet up on the wall.


----------



## smarch (Nov 19, 2014)

Tom said:


> My thoughts exactly. If the room temp in the apt. is 22, I'll bet the floor is significantly cooler.
> 
> Check your floor temp Princess Jay, not the air temp 5 feet up on the wall.


 For me, I don't let Nank roam (I've described his mobile area that's a plastic tub) and in our downstairs living room we have our wood stove, which heats the whole house, the tub when not being used gets stored next to the stove so its always nice and warm for him... in fact I think we have our thermostat/heat kicked off since it warms the whole house (and thank goodness! in power outages I never have to worry about keeping him warm!)


----------



## HotdogKnight (Dec 4, 2014)

Thank you for posting this, i'm still new to this and I knew the dangers of having a tort loose in the house but I still didn't expect that to go the way it did; and with such fragility.


----------



## Heather H (Jan 11, 2015)

Thank you for posting this. Taught me a lesson. Tuxy now has a playpen ( plastic tub) for when he is not in his enclosure. I put repti turf down. I also have a clamp light for it. It has a hide in it. I'm thinking of planting grass and weeds in it. He can't go outside right now. 2 foot of snow and all. Lol I'm sorry for the loss of this baby. I promise I will not let my baby roam the floor.


----------



## Gillian M (Jan 11, 2015)

Welcome to the forum! I too was told NOT to let my beloved (Greek) tort to roam around my flat, although the poor thing keeps trying to get out of its encloosure and I watch it trying to climb out lke a little monkey! "Don't they get bored of those enclosure?" I think. I have a strong feelin that they do as they "right" place is in the.....wild and definitely not a flat.


----------



## WithLisa (Jan 12, 2015)

Gillian Moore said:


> "Don't they get bored of those enclosure?"


According to my experience they don't get bored or try to climb out, if the enclosure is big enough and well structured.


----------



## Gillian M (Jan 13, 2015)

terryo said:


> Maybe we should start a thread with all the mistakes that everyone made....or maybae we better not.
> Where did everyone go David?


 That would be a good idea, though I'd expect it to be heart-breaking.


----------



## Gillian M (Jan 13, 2015)

Princessjay said:


> Oki let me re phrase..... She has a fully set up enclosure, but every now and then I let her wander around a warm room in a cordoned off area on a clean floor fully supervised with her climbing bits and hide on the floor. She is more active outside her enclosure than in. She is never Alone and I'm always watching her (I love watching her; it's just really cute to see her waddle).


 I agree with you and that's exactly what I do: I allow my beloved tort to roam around for a while and I can assure each and every one of you in the forum that I follow it step by step, taking care that I do not kick it by mistake. As I already mentioned the poor thing struggles to get out of its enclosure. It hurts me to see that, believe me. At the same time, if you allow your tort to roam around, you have to be their like a bodyguard.


----------



## Team Gomberg (Jan 13, 2015)

Some people just have to learn the hard way.... 

(I'm not referring to the op who maybe didn't know this was a bad idea...I AM referring to those who read these stories yet still do it..)


----------



## Cowboy_Ken (Jan 13, 2015)

Just a reply to the thread title…


----------



## Tom (Jan 13, 2015)

Team Gomberg said:


> Some people just have to learn the hard way....
> 
> (I'm not referring to the op who maybe didn't know this was a bad idea...I AM referring to those who read these stories yet still do it..)




"But, but, but... It won't happen to ME..."


----------



## AmRoKo (Jan 13, 2015)

Poo, my ferret story doesn't add anything to thread. 



Cowboy_Ken said:


> Just a reply to the thread title…
> View attachment 114177



I love how the dad is smiling at his baby in the aquarium, it's just kind of psychotic lol.


----------



## WithLisa (Jan 13, 2015)

Gillian Moore said:


> As I already mentioned the poor thing struggles to get out of its enclosure. It hurts me to see that, believe me.


How big is the enclosure? If it hurts you, you should enlarge it, that would make your tortoise happier than to roam around on the floor. (I would give an adult tortoise at least 5 square meters, but more is always better.)
I'm sure most tortoises are much more active outside of their enclosure, but that doesn't mean they like it, it's just a sign of stress.


----------



## booshsmummy (Jan 14, 2015)

Wow, that's so awful. I really feel for the OP. I can't imagine how awful that must have been for her  I'm so glad I've seen this thread. I took on Boosh not knowing an awful lot about tortoises (he was being neglected by my brother so I gave him a home and have been trying to learn as much as I possibly can so he can have the best home possible). He has a decent sized home and I started off letting him have a walk on the floor (with me walking behind him, never letting him out of my site). I have to admit I would have continued to do so if I hadn't read things about it online (here and elsewhere) so I am pleased I've seen it. He seems happy enough in the enclosure he has (which I will size up as he gets bigger) so it makes perfect sense that he doesn't need to walk around on the floor.


----------



## Gillian M (Jan 14, 2015)

WithLisa said:


> How big is the enclosure? If it hurts you, you should enlarge it, that would make your tortoise happier than to roam around on the floor. (I would give an adult tortoise at least 5 square meters, but more is always better.)
> I'm sure most tortoises are much more active outside of their enclosure, but that doesn't mean they like it, it's just a sign of stress.


 Thanks your advice. Honestly speaking I don't know how large/small the enclosure is, but I insist on one point: their right place is in the *wild*, neither the enclosure nor the floor, whether we like it or not-no offence, ok?


----------



## Gillian M (Jan 14, 2015)

Tom said:


> "But, but, but... It won't happen to ME..."


 No Tom, I do *NOT* think like that. I am more careful than anyone in the forum can imagine. Ok?


----------



## WithLisa (Jan 14, 2015)

Of course you are right. But that's why we should try to give them an enclosure as similar to their natural habitat as possible (a lot of space, structure, plants, light,...). An outside enclosure would be the best. 
The floor is exactly the opposite of the wild, so how can it be a better environment than a good and safe enclosure?

If your tortoise is not happy with the enclosure, you should change it to meet her demands. It's not a good solution to put her in an even worse environment instead.


----------



## Tom (Jan 14, 2015)

Gillian Moore said:


> Thanks your advice. Honestly speaking I don't know how large/small the enclosure is, but I insist on one point: their right place is in the *wild*, neither the enclosure nor the floor, whether we like it or not-no offence, ok?



No. Not okay. The wild is a very dangerous, inhospitable and unforgiving place. Many of them meet their doom in horrible painful ways, like being eaten alive. Hundreds or thousands of babies die for every one that survives to adulthood.

You can insist all you want, but if reincarnation is possible and I can come back as a tortoise, I would much rather come back as one of Tom's tortoises in a great big enclosure with the right temperatures, no predators, clean water and good food every day, than live out in the wilds of Africa trying to not get eaten by natives or have my legs chewed off by hyenas and lions, and then hoping there is not another terrible drought leaving me no food or water for months on end..., just hoping I can somehow survive just a little longer before the reaper comes a knocking...

And what do you mean you don't know how large or small the enclosure is? Isn't it right there in front of you?


----------



## kathyth (Jan 14, 2015)

Excellent Maggie!! Maybe there could be a stickie so this valuable lesson can be easily read.


----------



## WithLisa (Jan 14, 2015)

Tom said:


> if reincarnation is possible and I can come back as a tortoise, I would much rather come back as one of Tom's tortoises in a great big enclosure


That would be nice! 
But I guess I would rather go through all those hardships in the wild with little chance of survival than to be kept in a not-so-great, small indoor enclosure and sometimes on the floor.
Sadly, most pet tortoises have to live like that...


----------



## Tom (Jan 14, 2015)

WithLisa said:


> That would be nice!
> But I guess I would rather go through all those hardships in the wild with little chance of survival than to be kept in a not-so-great, small indoor enclosure and sometimes on the floor.
> Sadly, most pet tortoises have to live like that...



Hmm... Your proposed circumstances make it a much more complex dilemma. Would I rather be a wild tortoises with all of those good and bad points, or would I rather be stuck in a too small cage and put on the dangerous cold floor sometimes?

I don't know. Cramped quarters, floor hazards, and a crappy diet seems like it could eventually lead to a slow dragging death, but wild conditions can also be so harsh at times...

My human brain with all of my life experiences still tells me that even substandard captive life is better than the perils, predators, parasites, droughts, cold spells, food shortages, man made hazards like roads and chemical pollution, etc... found in the wild. I suppose it would have to come down to the fine points of just how bad the captive care would be. If the enclosure were too small, but the diet and temperatures decent, I still think I would choose captivity over the wild.

I suppose this will come down to an individual choice based on each person's perception.


----------



## stinax182 (Jan 14, 2015)

I just want to add something to all the people that say they cleaned the floor and there is absolutely nothing hazardous there:

I use to let my tort roam the floor inside a closed baby gate, perfectly safe, right? But if i had a window open the draft would sometimes blow in and waft all the cat hair outside the baby gate i didn't sweep up, inside it. 

One time something broke in the next room and a piece of it landed in the baby gate!

Also, my cats and dogs like to randomly run around the house at high speeds and i would have to guard the pen from them.

The point tom is trying to make is that there are things that could happen that you can't possibly be ready for or prevent. We know that you are all responsible tort owners and aren't going to leave candy wrappers and dog poop on the floor with your tort, that's not what we're warning you from.

Besides the fact that the only reason your tort is more active outside his enclosure is because he's terrified. You know they bury themselves and hide for a reason INSIDE THEIR SAFE ENCLOSURE, so why would they want to explore this strange, cold surface? They don't, they're scrambling to hide before something eats them.


----------



## tort_luv_5055 (Mar 3, 2015)

This kind of stuff breaks my heart in two. Although I am a new keeper I did my homework and knew exactly what I was getting into.
I feel awful for this owner, and I can't even imagine what I would do if this had happened to me. That poor girl.
Please, PLEASE be careful with your hatchling! And figure out what you are doing before you bring such a sensitive animal into your care! Tortoise have very specific needs and especially babies. I researched for 6 months before I adopted Apollo. Don't buy a tortoise spontaneously!


----------



## crimson_lotus (Mar 3, 2015)

stinax182 said:


> Besides the fact that the only reason your tort is more active outside his enclosure is because he's terrified. You know they bury themselves and hide for a reason INSIDE THEIR SAFE ENCLOSURE, so why would they want to explore this strange, cold surface? They don't, they're scrambling to hide before something eats them.



I've noticed this too. It should be quite obvious but when I first received my tortoise I didn't think about it.

I originally took my tortoise out of her enclosure to walk around and keep things interesting, but she kept trying to go under things or hide in small spaces between furniture and just hide in her shell. Yes, she was active...in order to find a proper hiding place. I felt like a bully. Even I do not enjoy sitting on my cold hardwood floor and I'm warm blooded. PLUS she tried to eat something mysterious off of my rug, which I thought was clean. She used to eat rocks (before I purchased Minerall), I mean really, anything that you may find inedible on your floor could have potential to them!


----------

