# Tortoise dragging his shell when walking



## leigti (Jun 12, 2014)

Hello, I am concerned about how my Tortoise is walking and was looking for any advice that people might have. He is a Russian tortoise 5 inches long and around 510 g. I have noticed in the last couple months that his bottom shell does not clear the ground when he's walking. His indoor enclosure has coconut core and the outdoor enclosure is mostly dirt and Pete Moss with rocks, lots of plants some pieces of wood adult small logs etc. to walk on. When I got him the vet said that he shows signs of a previous injury such as a crushing injury as if he was stepped on it, there is a healed shell break around the back half of his shelf. But she said his legs were strong. Is he possibly too heavy? Could there actually be eggs? I am not even 100% sure he is a he, we did x-rays about a year ago and there were no eggs. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.


----------



## dmmj (Jun 12, 2014)

Was it a one time occurrence, or is it constant?


----------



## leigti (Jun 12, 2014)

It is constant.


----------



## WillTort2 (Jun 12, 2014)

Can you post a video?

Is the bottom of the shell showing wear marks?


----------



## leigti (Jun 12, 2014)

There are a couple spots that look worn. I can take a video tomorrow. How do I post a video? I have an iPhone.


----------



## dmmj (Jun 12, 2014)

Shell dragging can be an indication of MBD, or an injury.


----------



## leigti (Jun 12, 2014)

I don't know anything about his background. I don't know of any recent injury, just the healed injuries that the vet suspects. MBD may be a possibility, he has a UV power son bald for inside and he is outside whenever possible. I try to give him a good diet, Russian seed mix, weeds etc. he's never touched the cuttlebone, I have not done any calcium supplements. His shell has curled on the edges especially around the back part of the shell, is this normal? Also it seems like his growth lines are large, and slightly soft. Right now he is eating strictly the plants in his outdoor enclosure. I will post a video and some pictures tomorrow afternoon.


----------



## wellington (Jun 13, 2014)

I have a leopard that was not taken care of very well before I got her. She too does not lift when she walks. She looks like a sea turtle on sand when she walks. I was given the advice from the forum to give he hydrotherapy. Fill a tub with warm water, enough where she has to swim and build up the strength in her legs. Do this each day for 15 minutes. It seems to be helping, slowly, but helping. You might want to try this for yours.


----------



## leigti (Jun 13, 2014)

That sounds like a good idea. I work in physical therapy so I know all about rehab. Can Russian tortoises swim or do I need to support him?


----------



## wellington (Jun 13, 2014)

I'm not sure. I think most all tortoises can swim some, probably just not in long distance. See what he does. Good luck. It will take a while, so don't expect a quick fix, but you never know either.


----------



## leigti (Jun 14, 2014)

I couldn't figure out how to download a video so I took some pictures. I hope this helps. If not can somebody tell me how to download a video? I have a iPhone.


----------



## Yvonne G (Jun 14, 2014)

I think the tortoise's legs and bones are weak from MBD.


----------



## leigti (Jun 14, 2014)

Thanks Yvonne. That's what I was afraid of. I have had him for a year and a half and I have tried to give him the best care I could, I have done a town of research on the site and done everything that it says. Any suggestions of how to improve this? His show was not curled when I got him but it is now, did I do something wrong?[tortoiseforumATTACH=full]83637[/ATTACH]




Here are some other pictures, do you think he is a he or a she? Are his claws tomorrow? I feel terrible I want the best for my Tortoise and I feel like I have failed. Did I make it worse?


----------



## Yvonne G (Jun 14, 2014)

I think it's a female.

The tortoise needs calcium and UVB. If you've had your UVB light for a while, it may be time to buy a new one. They lose their UV properties after a while.


----------



## leigti (Jun 14, 2014)

I replaced the bulb after a year, but he spent all summer in his outdoor pen. And he is out in his outdoor pen again now. He won't touch the cuttlebone if ice scrape it on his food will he eat it? Are there any natural foods he can eat that will give them the calcium? Or are there other ways I can give him calcium? I guess I thought that if he, she was eating the right foods that he would get calcium. I guess I was wrong. I am so mad at myself and feel so bad. I guess I should quit calling him him that might be difficult. Should I get her x-rayed to see if there's any eggs? There weren't any about a year ago.


----------



## Yvonne G (Jun 14, 2014)

Turnip greens, opuntia cactus are both high in calcium. Okra, collards, kelp and broccoli are also high in calcium.


----------



## leigti (Jun 14, 2014)

He likes cactus and turnip greens, hates collards  where do I get kelp? I don't know much about MBD. What else can I do to help it, can it be reversed at all? What effects does it have on the Tortoise and has he had this for a long time? Or could it have developed just since I got him? Her I mean


----------



## alex_ornelas (Jun 14, 2014)

leigti said:


> View attachment 83630
> 
> If not can somebody tell me how to download a video? I have a iPhone.


 I found that you have to post it on youtube then post the link here. I have t found any other way


----------



## leigti (Jun 14, 2014)

Okay thank you for the information.


----------



## leigti (Jun 14, 2014)

I've heard of liquid calcium that you put in the water when you soak them. Would that help? I usually soak Him, her I mean, a couple times a week at least. Also do you think this is a relatively young Tortoise or relatively old? Under 20 years old or over 20 years old for example. Like I said, I have no background at all on her. I got her from a locally owned pet shop that obviously knows nothing about tortoises but I thought I was being smart by not following any of their instructions. Any and all information or suggestions that people have for the care of my Tortoise is greatly appreciated. Thank you.


----------



## dmmj (Jun 14, 2014)

Liquid calcium should only be used for tortoises who need lots of calcium, quickly.MBD takes time to develop, it does not happen overnight,ovedosing on calcium won't be good for it.Provide more cactus if hre likes it,it is high in calcium.MBD is not reverseable,but good diet and time will help.


----------



## mikeh (Jun 14, 2014)

The way the shell/growth is deformed due to MBD it may always be dragging its shell even after MBD is rectified.


----------



## leigti (Jun 14, 2014)

How do I know if MBD is rectified?


----------



## mikeh (Jun 14, 2014)

Outdoor living and UVB light indoors along with calcium rich diet will rectify MBD. 

If you notice the tortoise had some recent growth suggesting things are improving, but the growth is very uneven. Most of it is happening on the plastron sides and only partially on carapace. This lack of carapace growth not keeping up with plastron growth is likely contributing to shell dragging as the legs are being lifted by the bottom growth. When you place him on your hand how strong is he pushing with his back legs? If they push strong then the uneven growth is the reason.

There may be very little future growth in the injured area.


----------



## leigti (Jun 14, 2014)

Thank you. When I put them on my hand he pushes pretty strongly with his back legs. I was concerned that he was growing too fast because of the big growth lines, and I noticed that it seemed on equal on either side of the top shelf but I did not notice that the top and the bottom shelf were not equal to each other. You said the injured area may not grow much, according to the vet he has what she called a crush injury that broke the top shelf all the way around the Maccaughey of his top shelf. So if this is true does that mean that that area will not grow? I thought I was feeding a proper diet but I guess not, I guess I am a little confused by the oxalate and calcium problems.


----------



## Flipper (Jun 14, 2014)

Good luck with your tort!


----------



## leigti (Jun 14, 2014)

Thanks I appreciate it.


----------



## mikeh (Jun 14, 2014)

I read thru your other posts. It appears the tortoise has proper husbandry in your care since you have her and any damage was prior to you getting it. 

Strong back legs suggest that MBD has been overcome if she had it. It also could be the injury you mention contributed to deformation and not MBD. 

Due to unequal growth I wouldn't feed any additional food other then what the tort grazes on in her pen( as long as there are weeds to graze on), to keep the growth in check. Russians are known to overfeed, you want to slow down the growth, perhaps top will catch up somewhat. 

Two inquiries. 
1) How high of the substrate is the MVB bulb in the indoor enclosure? 

2) Could you post a clear photo of back leg claws. Curled claws is another indicator of MBD. Her front claws are long but they are not curled. Its the rear that gets curled first if MBD is present.


----------



## leigti (Jun 14, 2014)

Okay I just measured the bald itself is about 13 inches from the substrate.


----------



## Maggie Cummings (Jun 14, 2014)

She obviously has/had MBD...That's Metabolic Bone disease. I'd get a new UVB bulb,(and get a new one every 5 to 6 months) put in sun as much as possible and feed food with lots of calcium. I would also add powdered calcium to her food 3 times a week. Do some research on MBD and treat it as if it's active now. Her shell is not growing so her body is too big for it. Follow Yvonne's advice, research the MBD and treat her daily for it. You may stop any progression and could make her legs stronger, but present damage will not go away. your best bet is to stop the progression and to strengthen her legs...Yvonne is the best one to get advice from about treating the MBD, but you still need to research it and make a concentrated effort to treat her for it. That means treat daily for a long time...


----------



## mikeh (Jun 14, 2014)

The claws do not seem to point to MBD. They are little long but look healthy and not brittle. I would not trim them. Strong back legs would also suggest no active MBD. New healthy growth also suggests no active MBD.

Hard to tell due to shell injuries, the shell deformity could be from past mild MBD or like Tom said in your other post, it could be from shell injury. Perhaps both. 

The MVB is too low. 13" high makes it 11" above the shell and is too low. It almost looks like her top scutes are mildly burned. Increase MVB to 18-20" height above the tortoise. New MVB in the fall when tortoise goes in for the season.


----------



## leigti (Jun 14, 2014)

I appreciate everybody's input and advice, but sometimes there's contradicting advice and I'm not sure which way to go. I have been researching MBD on this site on and off all day long and I will continue to. From what I can tell I'm doing everything right so that's why I'm a little confused. The only thing I have not done is supplement calcium three times a week so I will definitely do that. But the amount of son that she is getting and the power son Bob and her diet all seem correct as well as indoor and outdoor enclosures. I just want my Tortoise to be healthy I have no control over what happened before I got her but I want to do things right now so this is been a very troubling time for me the last couple days. Although it is kind of nice to have it confirmed that he is actually is she, now I just have to get used to that.


----------



## mikeh (Jun 14, 2014)

mikeh said:


> The claws do not seem to point to MBD. They are little long but look healthy and not brittle. I would not trim them. Strong back legs would also suggest no active MBD. New healthy growth also suggests no active MBD.
> 
> Hard to tell due to shell injuries, the shell deformity could be from past mild MBD or like Tom said in your other post, it could be from shell injury. Perhaps both.
> 
> The MVB is too low. 13" high makes it 11" above the shell and is too low. It almost looks like her top scutes are mildly burned. Increase MVB to 18-20" height above the tortoise. New MVB in the fall when tortoise goes in for the season.



On another note, you may consider xrays again. If she does have eggs it could be causing her dragging back legs and with her injuries she may have problems passing eggs on her own. Is she dragging just the shell while appearing use her legs normally or is she dragging her legs as well? Has she been digging at all with her back legs?


----------



## leigti (Jun 14, 2014)

I will raise the bulb. Hershell was burned before I got her according to the vet. Right now I have 100 Watt power son, should I increase it to 160 when I increased the height? I do plan to replace the bald in the fall. She appears to move her back legs relatively normally but she just can't get the shell up off the ground very much at all. She walks around her enclosure and climbs over things pretty well and stands up on her hind legs in the corners to try to get out  I can't really see well enough to tell if she's digging a hole with her back legs, I will definitely contact the vet and get some x-rays again. If there were no eggs a year ago could there be some now, I know absolutely nothing about tortoises laying eggs. I appreciate everybody putting up with my ignorance on all these issues.


----------



## mikeh (Jun 15, 2014)

I love troubleshooting so again everything points to very strong back legs that are used normally. 

The new growth predominantly on the plastron has pushed it down almost 1/2" while the legs stayed in the same place. Now she simply has no reach to get the plastron off the ground. 

I really don't think the tortoise is currently suffering from active MBD. 
It may have had some in the past as the shell deformity as such is typical for MBD but with all the other variables of crushed/injured carapace and the burned carapace scutes it could be just that. 

I would try to slow down her growth to hopefully allow the carapace to catch up.

160W MVB is favored by many members but will need to be even higher as it puts out even more heat and higher UVB. Solar meter 6.2 or 6.5 is recommended for use with indoor UVB as you simply don't know if the light is putting out UVB even when new.


----------



## leigti (Jun 15, 2014)

Which solar meter would you recommend? What's the difference between 6.2 and 6.5 and are they relatively easy to read? I have very poor vision, I'm legally blind, so I try to get things that are digital so that I can read them with my magnifying glass.


----------



## mikeh (Jun 15, 2014)

They are both digital and both work well. Solar meter 6.5 is more preferred by some.


----------



## leigti (Jun 15, 2014)

Thank you. I will get one.


----------



## leigti (Jun 17, 2014)

Just a quick update on my Tortoise. I took her to the vet today and the vet has never seen anything quite like this before. So she took x-rays and pictures and forwarded them to the vet school at WSU.


----------



## leigti (Jun 21, 2014)

The vet report from WSU is in. It sounds like my vet and that Vet r on the same page so that is good. It seems that my Tortoise has "outgrown her calcium supply" . She says the deformed shell may be permanent but we should be able to stop its progression. She thinks it was caused by my Tortoise eating too much of all that yummy plants in the outdoor pen. So now she is restricted to a temporary pin and is fed every other day, at least for the next two weeks then we will see how it goes. they do not plan to do bloodwork at this time and they do not think that Yurik has metabolic bone disease or hepatic lipidosis. She recommended supplementing with rep tical twice a week and w Repptivite the rest of the time but my vet and I decided that I could just supplement with scraped cuttlebone 2 to 3 times a week and that should be sufficient. 

Before I put her back in her regular pen I may have to pull out all whole bunch of plants :-( or maybe I will just put her out there every other day, I haven't decided yet. I take her back to the vet into weeks and we will discuss other options. One thing that none of us knows is why this happened this year but not last year. The conditions are the same but last year was fine. And it came on so quickly, within two months. I have not hibernated my Tortoise but I did notice that she slowed down over the winter and then perked up and ate a lot more when spring came around. This coming winter with a brighter light help to keep her from slowing down, and maybe try to keep the indoor enclosure warmer? I tried to do that this past winter but I guess it wasn't enough. If anything new comes along I will update. Thank you for everybody's help. And anymore suggestions or comments are very welcome, thank you. Oh here is a picture of Yurik slumming it! (at least compared to her other pen) it actually works pretty well as a temporary and very quick enclosure, and she did much better once I put the wood around the bottom so she couldn't see out.


----------



## leigti (Jun 21, 2014)

Oh yes and they also did x-rays and there were no eggs. And no signs of metabolic bone disease.


----------



## leigti (Jun 21, 2014)

Whoops forgot the picture sorry guys I will get it together eventually! The dog that is supervising is named Aspen, she is my 12.5-year-old lab springer mix and thankfully she knows what "leave it!" Means.


----------



## leigti (Jun 21, 2014)

like I said eventually


----------

