# For those who have gone to shows. . .



## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 20, 2013)

I am wondering what kind of animal display you find most appealing?

So, you go to a reptile show/sale and see all kinds of animals, but among tortoises for sale, what way has it been displayed that you like or dislike?

I'll start. 

I do not like it where they look crowded, one in a too small tub, or several jammed up, so they are about 50% or more of the foot print of the display enclosure is covered with animals.

I don't like it where people can just grab the animals up. If it was once in a week, well I could deal with that. But when I stop to consider maybe a few hundred people are likely to pick the tortoise up, turn it over, etc, I just feel like that "poor" animal will have a hell weekend at the show.

These two things bother me the most.

A third thing that can go either way is if the animals are being fed/eating while there. If it's something I consider a 'good' food item, I like to see it, but "bad", I do not. I think iceberg lettuce might be a 'universal bad', while hibiscus leaves might be a 'universal good'

I'll have a few tortoises at a local show, and I am curious what other people see, that turns them away? Whether you buy or not is less my interest, as these events are called "shows" as much as sales.

I know the animal itself is a big part of the perception, but I mean just the display, not individual tortoises that are pyramided, or show MBD etc.

What color background/tub/box do you think best displays the animals?

For very small neonates, would you prefer seeing them in groups or as individuals? Similar a typical bearded dragon display, with several in a tub, or more like leopard geckoes with one per clear deli cup.

For larger individuals, maybe adult box turtle size, the same question about individual or group?

Do you find the lighting very important - most venues have pretty good overhead lighting. Does extra lighting right there on the animals help, or bother you?

I could list things to much greater extent, but this is already much to consider. Any other POV would be appreciated.

Will


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## wellington (Oct 20, 2013)

I have just been to four this year. I hate that they don't house them the same way they should be housed at home. I get that the enclosure needs to be smaller, and there may need to be more of them in that smaller enclosure, but use the right substrate, do not mix species, do not over crowed and if they need it humid, it's not that hard to give, even in a temp enclosure. If people could see the newer, better ways of raising these tortoises, maybe they would be more inclined to either ask more questions, because they never seen them house like that before, or more apt to look into what they seen and maybe change up their own husbandry. I also don't like them open to the possibility of being handled. I would rather they had to ask. I do like seeing food and water with them. I don't mind the iceberg lettuce, I figure it helps with hydration, as they never have a water dish. I also don't like that they never have any information sheets on them. The ones I have seen would be wrong or bad info, but at least have something. I also don't like they have no hides. Give them some place to get out of the heat and hands. I hate them being in a tiny acrylic closed box and there is no room to even turn around. They aren't a piece of jewelry on display.
When I showed my dogs, they had the same comforts as they had at home, just on a smaller scale. That's what I would do for mine, if I bred and took them to a show. Little more work for me, but anything that's better for the animal is what should always be done.


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## conservation (Oct 20, 2013)

I've noticed that most of the sellers at shows these days (who are selling tortoises) are dealers not breeders.


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## mikeh (Oct 20, 2013)

Great topic!

Dislikes:
1) Crowded bins with NO substrate
2) No substrate- Bare bin even if for single animal
3) Mixing species, this is a major turn off (especially hatchlings with adults)
Not too long ago I have gotten vocal seeing hatchlings Burmese Mountains being tramped on by wild caught adult Russians in a nasty bin with bottom covered with feces.
4) Little salad/lunch plastic containers w/lid and couple holes for air where animal can't even turn around. 
5) Clear - see thru bins. Just something about seeing the animal desperately trying to get thru the wall is not eye pleasing. (This excludes a nice wall set up of glass tanks with substrate)
6) Covered bins with see thru lids, screens are ok. Plexiglass if done right looks ok too. 
7) Mixed display of bins and tanks. This makes me think that the small tanks among the bins are permanent homes. Make it uniform. 
8) Bins that are too deep. I should be able to see the content of the bin without leaning too much over it or sticking my head in it. 
9) one big netting over the whole display. Looks like camouflage.
10) A vendor who is sitting down reading a magazine or stuffing his face, while his display/bins/animals are in need of maintenance. 

Likes

1) Table(s) covered with black cloth, uniform colored bins
2) Few inches of substrate (cypress mulch is most eye pleasing)
3) For many animals of same species in the same bin-a larger bin with deep substrate so animals can burry shell deep. This way even if they are crowded it does not portray that image. (I have seen dozen or so sub/adult forstenii in a 3x2 wooden shipping crate with deep substrate and it actually looked quite acceptable to the eye.) 
4) Info card about the species at front of the bin.
5) Hatchlings in small groups (3-10). (Even if some may sleep, the overall impression is a lot of activity in the bin of those that are on the move) Also easier for the potential buyer to pick as long as it is translucent and doesn't look like 1000ants crawling all over each other. 
6) Extra heat/moist moss/lighting for the appropriate species or hatchlings. Shows the care of the vendor. 
7) Having an extra space on the table or in between bins where the animal of interest can be displayed separate for the buyer to look at on its own, this makes the buyer solely focus on the picked animal, feel being attentive to, and with right words eliminates the need for handling. 
8) Info paper about the vendor.
9) Proper cardboard box for purchased animal. 
10) Sample food with purchase of animals diet


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 20, 2013)

Pets101 said:


> I've noticed that most of the sellers at shows these days (who are selling tortoises) are dealers not breeders.



I have noticed a mix, breeders of a few species, offering what they have produced, but also imports alongside, a mixed massage booth of sorts.

Or breeders offering for sale what they bred, alongside what they have not bred. 

Pets101, I see your webpage and all, so you no doubt have a unique POV, why do you suppose or know this is.

Have you displayed at shows, and what do you like or dislike about the displays or the whole of the madness of it all?

Will


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## Tom (Oct 20, 2013)

Will, 
have you seen Tyler's booth? In my opinion that is how it should be done. Well organized, clean dark colored table cloths, closed glass topped enclosures so the tortoises can be seen perfectly, but not touched, extra over head lighting, prices clearly marked, etc.


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## ascott (Oct 20, 2013)

> closed glass topped enclosures so the tortoises can be seen perfectly, but not touched,



I don't go to reptile shows, but I would imagine if a person has alot of heart and time vested in their reptiles, this above would be the best set up....Almost a requirement it would seem....I mean, if someone has picked up 30 torts during the day can you imagine all of the cross contamination that occurs??? Oh no.


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## Vegas_Leopard (Oct 20, 2013)

I'll be working Tyler's booth on the 26th and 27th at the Vegas Reptile Expo, I'll ask him if I can take pictures and provide examples of what Tom has described.


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## Kameo37 (Oct 21, 2013)

I just went to Repticon in Ennis yesterday. I wasn't in the market for tortoises, but ofcourse, I checked them out. 
I didn't see anything I would ever take a chance on buying. The teeny babies were on the wrong substrate...even if it is temporary, it just gives the wrong idea. The slightly older babies were pyramided so badly that it was painful to even look at them. There was one older sulcata in a tub the exact size of his shell. Not even trying to move, not that he could if he did try. He was probably in the 24 inch range. His shell looked ok, but who thought that tub was a good idea? 
The lesson I learned: never buy a tortoise from any of those people!
The babies looked great, it was the slightly older tortoises that told me to stay away. 
So, I guess my advice would be to bring an older (yearling) tortoise with a smooth shell to show that you take care of them properly. Or maybe pictures of their living situations.


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## Yvonne G (Oct 21, 2013)

I used to take turtles and tortoises to our club's shows. I had large, colorful bolts of cloth printed in turtle patterns that I covered the tables with. 

I only displayed one turtle in each tub (if I were selling, I could keep the rest of that same species in a bin under the table to bring out to interested parties). The tubs were those plastic sterilite tubs, clean, and had small grade orchid bark as substrate. I also had a clamp fixture over each bin to keep the tortoises warm and to show them in a more lighted pleasant way.

My main turn-off at shows or sales is mixing species and crowding.


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## Linz2491 (Oct 21, 2013)

I am not an expert by any means but the set up I liked the most was a guy who did have open tubs on the table with maybe 3 or so of each species. They were not crowded. Yes people could pick up but they did have hand sanitizer. It was very welcoming and friendly. I would have loved to buy one! His were the more expensive breeds so I am sure it helps to be able to physically handle and fall in love.

What I hated was the torts in those tiny individual containers that didn't give th room to move a foot, wrong substrate and one had an individual red foot ( I think ) in a small tank who was banging the side the who time. I felt so bad for it. (Though I am sure that wasn't his typical tank.)
Though this was the worst


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## LisaTurtle (Oct 21, 2013)

Linz2491 said:


> I am not an expert by any means but the set up I liked the most was a guy who did have open tubs on the table with maybe 3 or so of each species. They were not crowded. Yes people could pick up but they did have hand sanitizer. It was very welcoming and friendly. I would have loved to buy one! His were the more expensive breeds so I am sure it helps to be able to physically handle and fall in love.
> 
> What I hated was the torts in those tiny individual containers that didn't give th room to move a foot, wrong substrate and one had an individual red foot ( I think ) in a small tank who was banging the side the who time. I felt so bad for it. (Though I am sure that wasn't his typical tank.)
> Though this was the worst



That tort's shell looks too tiny and his limbs look really long... I think something is wrong there


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## theresal (Oct 21, 2013)

So what I find appealing is a reptile able to freely move around a secure enclosure, being fed the right foods and given a heat source. 

I hate overcrowding, mixed species, mixed hatchlings and adults, mites and it really bothers me when the dealer touches one reptile and goes on to the next without even using hand sanitizer. But the biggest turn off I have seen by a reptile dealer was a dead lizard apparently lying in the show tank a while. They were selling tortoises too and it made me cringe at the thought of the lack of care all his animals were receiving because the lizard appeared to be wild caught and looked like it had starved to death. 

Thanks for posting this thread. I think about the conditions of these animals each time I attend a show. The more I have learned about how to care for my torts the less appealing the shows become. Also, I know that a good portion of the animals for sale will die due to improper care, some will end up in rescues hoping for a good home and others will be lucky to go to knowledgeable homes the first go round.


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## Mgridgaway (Oct 23, 2013)

It's probably easier to judge my likes by my dislikes. Most of these are things I've actually experienced..

1) No effort made to make the booth look professional. Even backyard breeders should get a cheap table cloth, some business cards, a care sheet or two (it doesn't even have to be original). And don't come to a show ready to sell, wearing some ragged jean shorts and your favorite 80's hair metal tee. You don't have to wear a suit but at least be presentable.
2) No prices. This is a big pet peeve of mine. This isn't a flea market, I shouldn't have to ask how much you want for a tortoise.
3) Arguing with me over proper care of animals I own and take of daily when you clearly only own the animals to sell/resell them.
4) Not letting people know what they're getting into with certain tortoises and then overcharging them. I'm looking at you, dude who failed to tell the young couple that a sulcata is the 3rd largest tortoise in the world and then asks $150 for it.
5) Vendors who look at me like _I'M_ some sort of weirdo for only being interested in tortoises as they sit there with 30 snakes, arachnids, giant millipedes, etc.
6) Vendors who overcharge. Be reasonable with your prices, people.
7) Vendors that aren't knowledgeable about the animals they sell. They should be able to provide basic care instructions for any animal they sell and make recommendations for learning more about them.

With that being said, I've met more good vendors than bad. It's just so much easier to remember the bad ones


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## cdmay (Oct 23, 2013)

The only show I've been to is the National Breeder's Expo in Daytona Beach but I have gone every year since about 1998. I've also helped work at a fairly large vendor's table that sold only captive bred turtles and tortoises.
The above negative comments from everyone are understandable and I would agree if we lived in a perfect world--but here is some reality based on my experience helping my friend at his booth.
First, the transporting, housing, feeding and setting up of hundreds (over 500) various well started young turtles and tortoises of numerous species is not something for the faint hearted. It is a huge task and is extremely nerve wracking as you are constantly worrying about the animals. In addition to bringing the animals along, you have to transport and set up heavy aquariums and or display boxes, bedding and so forth for the tortoises. And then try and find a water source at the venue (NOT and easy thing!) for all of the aquatic turtles. Of course food and cleaning supplies have to be brought along too. 
Second, during the event the aquariums require constant water changes (think about lugging 5 gallon buckets of water back and forth all day from the restrooms on the other side on the venue), and the tortoise bedding also requires constant monitoring to ensure cleanliness. 
You have to be present to answer the endless questions---even if you have printed information sheets for each species you are offering. You also must keep an eye on all of your stock as well as be ready to open the displays for people interested in inspecting specific turtles. 
Sure, in a perfect world all of the displays would have a single animal set up as if he was at home. But if you hatch say, 200 or more of each of the dozens of species you might be keeping (the case with my friend), the reality is that you simply cannot do so. Plus, vendors are paying big $$ for EACH TABLE at the show so there is limited space and elaborate displays for most of them are out of the realm of reason. 
True, the vendors who cram dozens of neonate turtles into open, bare tanks need to be adjusted and I hate seeing that just as much as everyone else. But once you've been on the other side of the vendor's table for a show or two you get a different perspective.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 23, 2013)

Yes, I have seen Tyler's display at three shows.

I have worked a display for Harold Carty in San Diego about 1991, maybe 1992. Over 40 species displayed, and a throng of people pushing to see. Luckily the water source was close, most were aquatic. Recall, if you were 'into it' then that this is when sulcata hatchlings flew off tables at $250 each. One customer bought them out at that price, over 30 individual tortoises.

I have had a few forethought ideas, absolutely confirmed by the feedback here. 

Care sheets, frankly, I figured I would direct people to this resource. The confusion of 'way to do it' is part of the process of learning, I'd hardly offer what I do as "THE" way. I can justify what I do with reason and science as well as result, but there is always a better more informed POV. And if the buyer provokes that through discussion here, more than just myself and the buyer will benefit.

Marked prices and contemporary nomenclature, I agree 100%. They will be called "_Stigmochelys_ (Geochelone) _pardalis_, babcocki type" Whole, honest, reliable and scientifically correct, and might well create conversation which leads to sales.

Another thing I strongly dislike from both sides of retail is people who hog time of the sales person/salespeople who do not acknowledge customers waiting.

I have seen booths swamped for several minutes, that result in no sales. Often, cdmay, I have seen booth helpers that act like they are 'doing time' and I find that grossly bad, somehow that is not the image I get from your being a booth helper, but I'm sure you have seen it. I get Mgridgaway's concept about some level of acceptable presentation. I have seen some booths that meet this well, and the booths that appear flea market-ish. I prefer the clean organized professional booth, but I would really like to see some sales figures. 

This overall has been a very informative thread, I hope if you get by the SD Supershow, you will 'grade' my effort, here or there at the moment.

Thanks for all the really informative POV's. If more come to mind, please post on.

Will


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## cdmay (Oct 23, 2013)

Will said:


> Another thing I strongly dislike from both sides of retail is people who hog time of the sales person/salespeople who do not acknowledge customers waiting.
> 
> Often, cdmay, I have seen booth helpers that act like they are 'doing time' and I find that grossly bad...
> 
> Will




Oh yeah, I've seen those things too. Very annoying to say the least.

The most elaborate display I have seen at the Expo in the past several years is that of Turtle Source. They have a huge section with great photos of their animals and then many 'helpers' with matching Turtle Source shirts. Very professional looking. 
But the negatives of their booth are the overcrowded tanks and prices that are beyond the astronomical--by far the most expensive prices at the show. Except for Wayne Hill's I mean. So while they get a lot of lookers, I get the idea that their prices keep many people from actually buying anything. As proof of this, you see many turtles from the previous year and even the year before making return visits to the show. 
So while they have a big and very impressive display, the costs must make them charge the high prices that they do. Not a win win.


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## N2TORTS (Oct 24, 2013)

Willâ€¦ good thread indeed and in the past I have seen some extravagant displays. Would be quiet fun to build one as well. But Iâ€™m surprised no one has brought this upâ€¦ The real problem is the cost of the spot â€¦for the smallest spotâ€¦.it is approx $1500 a day for the smallest and worst location all the way to 3K a day for a â€œdecent spot with exposureâ€ . So in tort terms you would have to sell 15 Redfoots a day just to pay for the crummy spot and split even. Why in the last 30 years I have gone to just about every show ( not as vendor) out here on the West Coast. Seeing this trickle effect of â€œ no show breedersâ€ who were always regulars at the shows. With the advent of the internet and online shopping , it cuts out that middle man ( same with owning a brick and mortar place) who gains the most profit. Now all we need is a decent shipper to accommodate us herp freaks â€¦
Maybe I should buy a jet and start a new shipping service â€¦â€¦? 
(Iâ€™ve actually thought about it )


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## apromann4 (Oct 24, 2013)

I agree with you jeff, why not start a new shipping bussines???


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 24, 2013)

On table costs, just a single table placed at the discretion of the show owner in 1996 or maybe 1997 for the Northwest Berkshire show in PA (Hamburg) was $100, that might even be a high, it seemed I paid my friend $50 for my half of the table?

Reptile Super show is $250 for a simple one table booth, a bit more for electricity. I live in SD so no hotel for me. But I see a year-round webpage, a billboard or two for local promotion and Ramy, though I don't think I have met him, seems like he really wants it all to be successful, for everyone, show goers and booth holders alike. I don't feel like I'm getting the short end of the stick (whatever that means).

So my cost for the 'show' is less than $350 for the weekend, and that should include paid-for parking. If I were trying to make that up with $25 each animals among 1,000 of others, I'd be a bit nervous. Mutant Bearded dragons, ball pythons, and leopard geckoes still make up the huge number of animals available. I don't know what happened to all those corn snakes, that had been number one for so long.

The point of the show for me is breaking that trust barrier. Money, the internet, smaller sellers like myself, etc. it's all got many hallmarks of seedy ripoffs. So far, all my sales have been local, and I think positive for the buyers, they want to see more than a mystery box delivered by one of the two reptiles specialty shipping facilitators, and they (potential customers) seem to not want to deal with airline schedules and go to an airport to pick-up Delta Dash or the will-call at FedEx.

Reptiles Express and Ship Your Reptiles are good for what they do, but the box is still handed over to FedEx. So in that sense there is at least a few companies that segway to FedEx for as much safe shipping as an non-specialty overnight front door delivery can be.

It also feels like a few inquires are probing for a weakness in what my procedures are for a potential claim. Maybe just thrifty tire kickers, who knows?

That show in Anaheim, the NARBC, if you were local, JD, would be less than $400 for the weekend, that's $200 a day. I even found secure legal free parking in Anaheim. With the crowd moving about as they do, I don't think I have seen a 'bad' spot at a show. ZooMed with the front, always, along with ExoTerra seems to drive people further into the show, than if the front were all filled with tables selling animals. 

I don't really think there are "bad" spots in these shows. I spoke with Bob Applegate at the NARBC, and he agreed with this perspective as did Natural History Books guy, Mike Dee. They have been doing this for 20+ years each. People will search them out, but I see other sellers in the most remote places, and they have as much traffic as the folks who go all out to get "attention". Most people seem to systematically walk the whole show. I think the expense of the entry fee to the show compels show-goers to walk the whole show. I also get that some are 'get-in get-out quick' but they are specific animal buyers, not full 'show goers' like a mom or dad taking their child to get a bearded dragon.

That is what I have looked for in the past year going to several shows from the tiny Reno venue, to the Sacramento show, which 'felt' like the biggest show in California. Even the Lodi show had good traffic, not for being Lodi, but as it it were in a larger city.

That booth Harold had in the early 1990's, I built the display for that, had many species housed as considered a 'best practice' as described here in this thread, was a single table. Sorta like the aquatics that the Turtle Tub guy uses, but no tubs for sale from Harold.

cdmay, what do National Breeders Expo single table booths cost?

Well, I'll give an accounting of how it goes. The table, electricity, and extra pass cost less than $350 for the whole weekend, I am pretty sure parking will fit in that cost as well. As there is a pizza dinner included I guess I could take $10.00 off of that per person, so -$30 back to me. 

Will


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## N2TORTS (Oct 24, 2013)

Let me know when you have a table ...and Bob is an old friend of mine in Elcajon ...I know him well...


again your right Debbie and her Husband over at Rep Express do a great job ....! ..


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 24, 2013)

N2TORTS said:


> Let me know when you have a table ...and Bob is an old friend of mine in Elcajon ...I know him well...



I have a table for the SD Reptile Super Show 2/3 November 2013.

Will


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## N2TORTS (Oct 24, 2013)

Will said:


> N2TORTS said:
> 
> 
> > Let me know when you have a table ...and Bob is an old friend of mine in Elcajon ...I know him well...
> ...



sweet .... I just called them sold out ( lucky dog ya gotta a spot) .. and your right $250 a spot..! great deal!!!...


Pomona still has openings ... but not the same crowd .


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## cdmay (Oct 24, 2013)

_cdmay, what do National Breeders Expo single table booths cost?
_

Will, I'm pretty sure it's $300.00. And it doesn't matter if you buy 10 tables--no discount. Admission to the show is $15.00 per person.
Staying at the Daytona Beach Hilton isn't cheap but the rate for the Expo is much reduced from the 'normal' Hilton rates. But then again the Hilton gets you will things like a mandatory $20.00 per night parking fee.

We go every year anyway as it is a fun weekend meeting up with old friends and there are some great restaurants to check out too. Agree about the ball pythons, weird bearded dragons and leopard geckos. Speaking of which, are there ANY normal, wild type leopard geckos left in the country anymore?


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 24, 2013)

In the June 1998 REPTILES magazine they list four shows with the rates. In relative terms is is about the same. 

NRBE in Orlando: $10 admission, $200 table
IRBA In San Diego: $8 admission, $150 to $200 table
MARS in Baltimore: $7 admission, tables by invitation no $ mentioned
FIRS in FLA state fair grounds: $7 admission, tables $125

The article also mention IHS, but that stopped being a symposium with a side order of sales which in part enabled NRBE to grown so fast.

Will


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## EricIvins (Oct 26, 2013)

It costs me anywhere between $500-$700 just to do a small show, and well into the $1000 range to do a large show. With NO guarantee of any kind of a return. I operate a business, so losing money on a show is NOT an option. Those who produce a few Tortoises a year may be able to write it off as a vacation or what not, but vending a show is NOT a vacation when you do up to 60 shows a year.

Something no one has brought up is the fact that when I do a show, I HAVE TO LEAVE MY COLLECTION. Something goes wrong, well I don't find out about it until I get back. I risk more than most know to do these shows, but a business does not run on love and butterflies.....

YES there are good and bad areas in a show. THAT DOES MATTER. Those who are closer to the entrance generally do better than those in the back.

Glass/lexan displays for Tortoises are for the birds. Been there, done it. You end up with a scratched up display after a show or two. I can't afford to replace display after display, so tubs it is for me...

I have to laugh at "overcharging" though. Last I figured, this is a free market society where I can charge whatever I want for what I'm offering. It is up to the public to determine if what I'm asking is reasonable to them. I implore anyone who feels this way to vend a few back to back shows ( I'm talking every weekend here, for a few months ) and see how they feel afterwards. If I have to charge extra to feed my family, then so be it. 

This is a subject I'm very passionate about, because I have experienced both sides for years. I have the experience to say doing shows is not an easy experience. There are more negatives than positives when doing any show. If my head were not about to explode I would post more. I'll probably do so later. I really hope Tyler can chime in, because this so far has been really one sided, and I don't think I can really put into words what the vendor side really entails...


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## N2TORTS (Oct 26, 2013)

Now we're talking some *facts* not published numbers~


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## Tom (Oct 26, 2013)

Very good insight Mr. Ivins. I too have been on both sides of the table, and it is a TREMENDOUS amount of work and expense for a vendor to attend these shows, before, during and after.

For me personally, I find it annoying that someone really cares about $5 or $10 dollars on the price of an animal one way or another when that animal is going to live for decades. The PRIMARY concern, in my opinion, should be the health of the animal. Back when I worked retail (mid 80's to early 90's), I learned this lesson well, both with tropical fish and with reptiles. We were the more expensive store in the neighborhood because we hand picked quality animals from the best sources. People would come to us, take up literally hours of our time asking questions and learning how to care for an animal, and then got to Petco or one of the crappy, run down, mom and pop stores and buy their animal because it was $10 cheaper. Frequently their "bargain" animal would get sick and die and they would of course come to us and ask how to "fix" it. I will admit I took a sadistic amount of satisfaction in making them admit that they had wasted our time and gone through hell to save a few bucks. Many of them decided to get their next animal from us, and of course it went fine.

I guess the point of my rambling is that: PRICE SHOULD NOT MATTER! Within reason of course. Quality and health should be the primary concern. How many people buy a baby sulcata from some large wholesale business who buy as many babies from any source they find, and end up spending hundreds on vet bills only to have the baby die and their children cry anyway. And for what? To save a few bucks?

The question/problem for me has always been: How do we get the people that just don't know any better yet, to understand this? Why should they pay Eric Ivins $10 more for that red foot baby, instead of buying the cheaper, but poorly started one a few booths down the row? How do they know the difference? Its a conundrum for me. Some percentage of the bargain hunters will get lucky and their baby will live and be fine, despite its poor start. Some percentage will end up with a dead animal and learn this lesson well. That is one reason I like this forum. I get nothing for telling someone to buy from you or Tyler. I'm an impartial third party. There are lots of people here who have no affiliation other than buyer/seller and we can all give honest feed back. I wish more of the public could see and understand all this BEFORE they go shopping for a live animal.


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## EricIvins (Oct 26, 2013)

Something that I have, and never will understand - You can have the most "professional" looking setup at a show, but people will still flock and spend their money at the death tables...

Everyone has to realize that Reptile shows are not for Reptile people. They are for the person who see an advertisement and gets hooked into going to a show. At a good Repticon show, I may see about 20% Reptile people. The rest are uneducated bystanders who think Reptiles are "cool", but aren't into the trade. "Pet Owners", not "Reptile Keepers"

Show promoters care about foot traffic. Plain and simple. A select few care about both foot traffic and Reptile People, so some gear their shows toward Reptile people. Most however DO NOT. That is why most of these shows end up being petting zoos or picture taking extravaganzas......


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## wellington (Oct 26, 2013)

Tom, we have that going on in the store I work for. I do the office stuff in our fish store, but do hear of the customers, taking up our time to educate them and then buy from Petco or online and then will come back to us asking what went wrong or how do I use this filter or other items they bought. I don't think the majority you can teach. They have to learn the hard way. I have a sister in law that I gave up on trying to educate her on the care of marine fish. She still doesn't get it. I won't let her buy fish from the store I work, because she just kills them.. 
If someone displayed all kinds of correct husbandry info at these shows, that wasn't also selling tortoises, you may be able to get through to some or maybe most of the buyers. However, a seller also trying to educate a customer on correct husbandry and the correct way theirs were started and that Joe Blow down the way, that are cheaper, aren't started out correctly, well we all know that just seems like a selling ploy, unless you already know better. 
Do these shows have cheaper tables, for those who just want to display care info? No selling. If so, that's where it would be nice for all these reptile groups and/or forums to set up a table. At the entrance and get them educated before they buy. You won't get all of them, but with something like Heather had, proof, you might get most of them. 
As for the tables in the back. A smart shopper will walk the entire venue before purchasing. Searching for not only the cheapest prices, but also the condition and care of the type of animal they are there to buy. Usually the tables closet to the entrance are the most expensive in the supplies they are selling. At least that has been my experience in the shows I have gone too. Now, granted I don't have much experience with them, and have only purchased a moon crab, and supplies. I do go mainly just to see the animals, not buy them and for supplies. 
After seeing the way the tortoises are kept, I would never buy one from a show, unless it was from one of the forum members I already knew did it right.


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## zenoandthetortoise (Oct 26, 2013)

I've never been to a show, either as buyer or seller, so that makes me uniquely qualified to comment 

I do have a comment though and that relates to the vehement rebukes I see toward those that keep multiple species together. (Please note I have no ax to grind, as this is not my setup). Would not the same vague concerns about introduction of novel pathogens be orders of magnitude greater at a show ?
How would a show be acceptable mixing, but a well sorted tortoise yard not be ?
Following up , could it be that this is problem of selective resistance that the pet trade is already solving ? Unlike, say nutrition or humidity , disease resistance can change in a generation. No data here, just an open question. 

Cheers !


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## wellington (Oct 26, 2013)

EricIvins said:


> Something that I have, and never will understand - You can have the most "professional" looking setup at a show, but people will still flock and spend their money at the death tables...
> 
> Everyone has to realize that Reptile shows are not for Reptile people. They are for the person who see an advertisement and gets hooked into going to a show. At a good Repticon show, I may see about 20% Reptile people. The rest are uneducated bystanders who think Reptiles are "cool", but aren't into the trade. "Pet Owners", not "Reptile Keepers"
> 
> Show promoters care about foot traffic. Plain and simple. A select few care about both foot traffic and Reptile People, so some gear their shows toward Reptile people. Most however DO NOT. That is why most of these shows end up being petting zoos or picture taking extravaganzas......




All the more reason to have proper set ups and good information. Most "Pet owners" for one, do the best by their pets. Also, everyone has to start some place. No one was born with their knowledge, likes or dislikes, pet owner or reptile keeper. Those "pet owners" maybe the next "reptile keeper". Also those "pet owners" is what *helps* to keep the "keepers" and "breeders" in business. Not all "pet owners" are uneducated, same as not all "reptile keepers" are educated. In fact I would have to say, in tortoises at least, there are many more uneducated "tortoise/reptile keepers" then there are educated. Put on a good and proper display, help educate those that want it. First impression at a show is visual. If a person sees a bunch of tortoises in a small enclosure, that is what they think they can do. If you just sell a tortoise and not ask the buyer any questions, to see if they know anything, well, then you just contributed to the poor information continuing on.
When I bred dogs. The people that bought from me, knew everything they would needed to know to raise that dog to be the best it could be. I didn't just sell to make a buck. In fact, if your a good dog breeder, your not making money. Your lucky if you break even. I have turned down sales, because I wasn't happy with the attitudes of the person. A little more caring for the animal and the knowledge of the people can go a long way.
I haven't seen too many, if any, at the shows I have been to that cared about the animal more then the almighty dollar. They make the sale and send the people off with a tortoise that they have no clue about, because the seller didn't ask anything and the buyer assumed you can take it home, put a bulb over it and plop it in the ten gallon tank sitting in the garage, probably still with the fish gravel in it.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 26, 2013)

Zen...

I agree with the apparent unreconciled mix of animals. I think of it as like this. 

Most, not all, but most pathogens require direct cross contact. I can ride in an elevator alongside people with AIDS, leprosy, Hepatitas etc, and be fine as long as I wash my hands after shaking hands with any of these people. Lets not get caught up on the specific of which hepatitas, or that AIDS requires body fluid mixing. The point is I can be in very near proximity to rather grossly unhealthy people and be OK.

Now take that further, say the flu, and other airborne diseases are on/in people in that same elevator. So as long as no one directly sneezes on me, etc, and I wash my hands, and am pretty healthy myself, I'm still OK.

That is all short term contact. Like two booths side by side, at a show. The "show" itself can be a stressor for the animals, or not depending on how the animals are treated. Those small deli cups, packed before the show, might be not so nice in one way, but good at isolating the animal from the pathogen soup that could be at the show.

At your home, with everyday proximity the chances of cross contamination go up, as does the chance of that one time lack of hand washing.

So, duration of potential exposure, frequency of exposure, and the condition of the animal all make it a suit of risks at the show. Your own collection and how you manage it are another suite of risks.

In my risk assessment, I don't mix species, or to a great extent even the same species from multiple sources.

I follow practices I have learned in pre-clinical labs with model organisms that are know to be disease carriers. It not 100%, but it's not a mix and match petri dish either.

At the show, if someone is serious enough about buying an animal, they won't mind wearing disposable latex or nitrile gloves. I'll have a bottle of Purell, but that is for their peace of mind, mine will be that they wear the gloves. Even one species to the next in my own booth.

Will


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## zenoandthetortoise (Oct 26, 2013)

Points taken Will and thanks for your insights. In my job I am focused on aerosol transmissible diseases and anything that generates droplet nuclei (coughing, sneezing,throat clearing) can quickly make close proximity such as the proverbial elevator a viable exposure pathway. Contrast with HIV/HBP where anything short of body fluid contact is safe. Given torts tendency towards URI, it seems like proximity could be a recipe for issues. 
Aside from the abundance of caution , are there data available regarding novel pathogens in captive groups? I'm interested to know if different species present more of a hazard than same species from different sources. 
Regardless, rest assured that if I am ever able to obtain one of your Manouria, he would have his own kingdom.


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## Tom (Oct 26, 2013)

Here is a question I do not have the answer to: Is an RI really a contagious disease? Maybe in the case of mycoplasma in DTs, but in the general tortoise population? A person could take a tortoise that has been isolated for years and "create" a RI by allowing it to become cold and damp. It seems to me, given the above, that there has to be an element of immunity with a healthy tortoise in the right temps and conditions. I can do the same thing with ich in aquarium fish. The fish could be living for ten years with no new introductions or any live foods, when one winter night the power fails, the temperature drops and suddenly there is an ich outbreak.

It seems to me that there must be multiple causes and multiple disease organisms at work in the cases of what we all generally refer to as "respiratory infections" in our tortoises. Can someone more educated in the matter than me do a thread on this?


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## cdmay (Oct 26, 2013)

EricIvins said:


> It costs me anywhere between $500-$700 just to do a small show, and well into the $1000 range to do a large show. With NO guarantee of any kind of a return. I operate a business, so losing money on a show is NOT an option. Those who produce a few Tortoises a year may be able to write it off as a vacation or what not, but vending a show is NOT a vacation when you do up to 60 shows a year.
> 
> Something no one has brought up is the fact that when I do a show, I HAVE TO LEAVE MY COLLECTION. Something goes wrong, well I don't find out about it until I get back. I risk more than most know to do these shows, but a business does not run on love and butterflies.....
> 
> ...



Eric, I thought I would respond to a few of your points...
First, every breeder/keeper has to leave their collection to attend a show, or go on vacation, or do anything away from home. That's part of life.
As for pricing you're right, it is a free market. But when one vendor is charging three times what most every other vendor at the same show charges for the same animal, people have a right to comment about (= laugh at) that vendor. Nobody denies his right to charge his prices though. 
Lastly, I can't help but notice that you seem angry about doing the shows--if there are 'more negatives than positives' to doing any show then why do so many? Or any? As a business owner if I look at the overall outcome of doing something and it ends up in the negative, I won't do it anymore.


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## cdmay (Oct 26, 2013)

One other thing...60 shows a year? Being that there is only 52 weeks in a year that makes you quite busy.


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## zenoandthetortoise (Oct 26, 2013)

Tom said:


> Here is a question I do not have the answer to: Is an RI really a contagious disease? Maybe in the case of mycoplasma in DTs, but in the general tortoise population? A person could take a tortoise that has been isolated for years and "create" a RI by allowing it to become cold and damp. It seems to me, given the above, that there has to be an element of immunity with a healthy tortoise in the right temps and conditions. I can do the same thing with ich in aquarium fish. The fish could be living for ten years with no new introductions or any live foods, when one winter night the power fails, the temperature drops and suddenly there is an ich outbreak.
> 
> It seems to me that there must be multiple causes and multiple disease organisms at work in the cases of what we all generally refer to as "respiratory infections" in our tortoises. Can someone more educated in the matter than me do a thread on this?



Excellent point. If the RI's are idiopathic , then perhaps they are the result of the stress from another animal in the habitat rather than vectored pathogens. Again, I am very interested to hear any specific examples. It would be fascinating if this was just oft repeated 'common knowledge' with limited basis in reality.


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## JeffG (Oct 26, 2013)

For someone like myself who is getting ready to be a vendor for the first time, there is a lot of great information in this thread. I can only say that I am grateful that I am not doing this in order to make money. I am looking forward to the experience, and am fully prepared to spend more than I make. That definitely takes away a lot of the pressure! My main desire is to do evrything â€œrightâ€.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 26, 2013)

*Re: RE: For those who have gone to shows. . .*



JeffG said:


> For someone like myself who is getting ready to be a vendor for the first time, there is a lot of great information in this thread. I can only say that I am grateful that I am not doing this in order to make money. I am looking forward to the experience, and am fully prepared to spend more than I make. That definitely takes away a lot of the pressure! My main desire is to do evrything â€œrightâ€.



The Meza show? Will


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## Tom (Oct 26, 2013)

JeffG said:


> For someone like myself who is getting ready to be a vendor for the first time, there is a lot of great information in this thread. I can only say that I am grateful that I am not doing this in order to make money. I am looking forward to the experience, and am fully prepared to spend more than I make. That definitely takes away a lot of the pressure! My main desire is to do evrything â€œrightâ€.



Good for you man. Its a neat experience. I did it with roaches. It was kinda fun for me and I was lucky to be given some booth space by a friend who had been to the shows and knew what he was doing.

What will you be selling? Skinks? Torts? I may have to stay an extra day and come say hi.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 27, 2013)

The most fun I had at a show was when I ran a table to solicit funds for my conservation program. Might have had a burger booth at a Vegan convention, but the few who gave more than an awkward glance as they hurried by were some of the best contacts I made for furthering that program.

I've only collectively done three or four shows for any reason, and that had been enough to prompt the interest that started this thread. I'm glad it been informative.

Will


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## TylerStewart (Oct 27, 2013)

Someone asked me to chime in on this thread with show financial info "behind the scenes" LOL. I was just talking to Ralph (Vegas Leopard) about this, as he helped me this weekend at the Las Vegas Reptile Expo. I gave him some typical show figures in expenses and in income prior to the show, and during the show this weekend, he saw those numbers play out pretty typical for a show (he ran the booth more than anyone, alongside my wife, as I was running the Vegas show itself). He can chime in about his experience with us (if you see this, Ralph). 

In my experience, probably 1/3 of the shows I do are net _losses_ financially. Another 1/3 are probably real close to breaking even. I don't necessarily care, though, because I'm doing shows to promote my website, not to make a financial gain come Monday. I hope that they see pretty tortoises at my booth, think my wife is a babe, grab a business card and buy a tortoise from us next week after they do their research. We'll use San Diego next weekend as an example. For expenses, my booth was $600 for the show. I'll have at least $300 in hotel costs ($100-120+ per night for two nights, and there's almost always substantial parking costs). I'll spend around $100 each way in gasoline to get there, I'll eat out at every meal ($???), and I'll pay for babysitters to watch my kids ($300) and I'll pay for babysitters to watch my tortoises ($100?). I miss work on Friday (unpaid) and I often miss work on Monday depending on where the show is (within a few hours, I can get home, get unpacked and get all shipments prepped the night I get home so I can be at work at 6-7 AM on Monday). There's many other minor costs in show supplies, unexpected costs, wear and tear on vehicles, flat tires, etc etc etc that average say another $100 per show. Without counting the lost income from not being at work or paying for my meals in SD, that's about $1,700 in expenses for me to go do this show. No matter what sells when I get there, I have that cost. 

I think many people see a tortoise sell for $100 or $200 and just assume that it's money made. If I sell a 4" hermanns tortoise male for $200 (for example), it's a tortoise I paid (for example) $100 for and have fed, housed and cleaned for X amount of months, so say I made $70 on that tortoise. I'd need to sell 24 of those to _break even,_ if that was a typical tortoise sold. Producing a baby tortoise certainly isn't free; I spend a ton of money maintaining the adults with the intent of producing babies... I won't even start going down the road of costs to maintain the parents of the babies that are sold (whole thread in itself). A vendor that goes into a show selling them at very low prices may sell well, but may have a hard time justifying their costs to be there. There's only so many people that walk in the door with the intent of buying a tortoise. The people that decide to buy one once they get there I think largely will have a difficult time with the tortoises that they buy. I don't think someone should ever be convinced that "a tortoise is the right pet for you." I think people need to decide that for themselves, and then you make the presentation. 

Selling supplies is much more difficult.... By the time you pack up supplies, haul them to a show, set everything up on what is usually expensive table space, you can either try to sell them for a 40% margin and not sell anything (because the next guy over is selling supplies at a 30% margin), or you can sell them at a 20% margin and sell well, but not make enough money to pay for the table space they're sitting on. Then when someone returns a mercury vapor bulb on Sunday that they bought on Saturday that didn't work (for example) you just blew a big fat chunk of potential profit (as you sell the next 6 bulbs to cover the costs on the first one). We do supplies at some shows and not at others, but this past weekend we had a large selection and it just didn't sell well at all. I was competitively priced, but that doesn't always matter. There's only X amount of people that walk in the door looking for a ZooMed light stand. 

In regard to the prices getting someone laughed at, I have no problem with any vendor having an obscene price on something. If it's worth that to him, by all means, put that as the price. I'm admittedly never the cheapest tortoises at any show I do. I'm not trying to blow anything out. If I can and do sell something regularly on the site for $100, why would I take them to a show and mark it at $50 to be competitive? I'd rather discount it a bit to $75 or $80 since I won't have to bother shipping it, sell a handful and take the rest home with me to ship a week later to all the people that just saw how pretty and healthy my tortoises are. People all the time will walk up at a show (or in this forum if my memory serves me) and throw a fit that they are $50 "over there," and how I'm going to be out of business with my crazy pricing, but to me that means absolutely nothing, as they aren't seeing anything from my point of view, or likely knowing what they're going to get for $50. 

Of course I'm not complaining; I like getting out of town (all my personal friends anymore are other vendors), I like exposing the website, I like the tax write offs and the ultra sexy EcoBoost F150 that the tortoises pay for LOL. I'm fortunate that I still work a day job on top of this so I don't need to be completely picky when choosing whether or not to go do a show; if I can go and have a fun weekend and expect to break even, sign me up! The more difficult decisions are shows like Arlington TX or Puyallup, WA which I did both about 2 years ago and the distance just kills my enthusiasm and adds obscene costs, then after a bad show you have a 21 hour drive home to think "what the hell was I thinking going to Washington state?"


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## Team Gomberg (Oct 27, 2013)

Wonderful Tyler, thank you for sharing.


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## cdmay (Oct 28, 2013)

TylerStewart said:


> Someone asked me to chime in on this thread with show financial info "behind the scenes" LOL. I was just talking to Ralph (Vegas Leopard) about this, as he helped me this weekend at the Las Vegas Reptile Expo. I gave him some typical show figures in expenses and in income prior to the show, and during the show this weekend, he saw those numbers play out pretty typical for a show (he ran the booth more than anyone, alongside my wife, as I was running the Vegas show itself). He can chime in about his experience with us (if you see this, Ralph).
> 
> In my experience, probably 1/3 of the shows I do are net _losses_ financially. Another 1/3 are probably real close to breaking even. I don't necessarily care, though, because I'm doing shows to promote my website, not to make a financial gain come Monday. I hope that they see pretty tortoises at my booth, think my wife is a babe, grab a business card and buy a tortoise from us next week after they do their research. We'll use San Diego next weekend as an example. For expenses, my booth was $600 for the show. I'll have at least $300 in hotel costs ($100-120+ per night for two nights, and there's almost always substantial parking costs). I'll spend around $100 each way in gasoline to get there, I'll eat out at every meal ($???), and I'll pay for babysitters to watch my kids ($300) and I'll pay for babysitters to watch my tortoises ($100?). I miss work on Friday (unpaid) and I often miss work on Monday depending on where the show is (within a few hours, I can get home, get unpacked and get all shipments prepped the night I get home so I can be at work at 6-7 AM on Monday). There's many other minor costs in show supplies, unexpected costs, wear and tear on vehicles, flat tires, etc etc etc that average say another $100 per show. Without counting the lost income from not being at work or paying for my meals in SD, that's about $1,700 in expenses for me to go do this show. No matter what sells when I get there, I have that cost.
> 
> ...



Excellent reply Tyler. You point out all of the expenses, worries and hassles that go into a show and yet at the end you point out that it is still worth it to you. Why? Because it allows you to do want you want in life and be a part of the hobby/industry. You work your butt off but aren't whiny about it. 
As you point out though some shows simply aren't worth doing and one would assume that in time you will weed out such events. 

In comparison I would cite my job. I'm a gardener on a five acre Palm Beach estate located on the ocean. Despite the location my job is dirty, sweaty and back breaking (literally) and I spent the last two weeks on top of ladders that were 12 to 20 feet tall while trimming trees. At the end of each day I was covered in sticky tree sap, had sweated off 6 or 8 pounds and had numerous cuts all over my arms, back and legs.
But the benefits? During the whole time I was able to look out over the ocean and watch the schools of migrating mullet get pounded by giant tarpon and sharks. I saw 5 migrating peregrine falcons fly right over my head and the migrating warblers started showing up too. My job is about as physically tough as you can imagine...every day. But I wouldn't trade it.

As regards laughing at some vendor's prices I should clarify what I meant...charging an extra $50.00 or so is one thing and I would gladly pay it for the knowledge that I am getting a good animal.
BUT, a vendor charging $675.00 for a yearling sized Staurotypus and advertising equally astonishing amounts for other rather common species is going to result in knowledgeable people at the show making comments.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 30, 2013)

TylerStewart said:


> Someone asked me to chime in on this thread with show financial info "behind the scenes" LOL. (etc. Will)



So in short, had you not been running the whole show, as it is, and just worked a table(s) at the local show, I'd guess you would not have to take time off from work, have hotel expenses, nor labor, or as much gas costs. Then the tables you use are like any retail space, there is a cost per square foot, and what you sell - that pays for that cost. That would drive the expenses down to the actual tables and time behind the table as well as set up and take down. Even your giant truck would not use so much gas for a local show. I've never had to pay for parking in vegas, but that's me looking to be thrifty.

That puts the whole weekend at about $500, plus or minus, with one table, that cost only going up by the margin for each additional table you secure for use.

I hope the overall show with table rentals to other vendors, and the "gate" make it a viable concern for you. 

Good rundown of going to the expense of an "out of town" show. When your operation grows more you'll be able to have a specialty crew go and do all this remote for you, while you are able to stay at home, sorta like G. Bagnall and ZooMed.

Will


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## TylerStewart (Oct 30, 2013)

Will said:


> So in short, had you not been running the whole show, as it is, and just worked a table(s) at the local show, I'd guess you would not have to take time off from work, have hotel expenses, nor labor, or as much gas costs. Then the tables you use are like any retail space, there is a cost per square foot, and what you sell - that pays for that cost. That would drive the expenses down to the actual tables and time behind the table as well as set up and take down. Even your giant truck would not use so much gas for a local show. I've never had to pay for parking in vegas, but that's me looking to be thrifty.



Correct, but in my example, I was using a typical out of town show (San Diego) as the example, which would have similar numbers/budget to about 80% of the shows I do. The Vegas show is of course the exception, but I think I did/am doing about 15 shows this year, only two of which were here in town.


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