# Thriving VS. Surviving



## Tom (Mar 9, 2011)

So I'm humbly realizing that I might not have been as good of a tortoise keeper as I thought I was. I've always read all the books and tried to follow all the expert advice. I've always tried to keep up on new info and incorporate what I learn into better care for all of my animals. Events of the last few months have just really demonstrated that I wasn't doing all that great of a job in the not too distant past.

I've never lost a hatchling or any adult of any species, except in the rare case where they came to me so far gone, that nothing could save them. Even then, I was able to save most of them. In 1998 the thinking was low protein, high fiber diets for sulcatas, featuring lots of grass and weeds. Relatively low amounts of food and slow growth was also advocated. I did this and the result was seemingly healthy, but small adults, now 13 years later. The question is; how do you define "healthy"? They are alive. They've never been sick. They eat, drink, poop and are very active. They copulate frequently. They bask every day and move to their heated houses every night. Healthy, right?

One measure of just how healthy an animal is, is their ability to produce viable offspring. Sulcatas are known for their virility and how prolific they are. Here's where I feel like I've failed. In Jan. 2009, Delores, my lone adult female, laid 3 infertile eggs. I figured it was her first time and she was still small, around 17", and it would be better next year. In Jan. 2010 she laid 7 eggs and three turned out to be fertile. Better, but still way below average. Many people get 15 or 20 eggs for their first clutch out of 15" little females. Often with high fertility even that first time. They also usually get repeat clutches. Often 2-5 clutches per year. Mine was looking pretty sad in comparison. I joined this forum in Jan. 2010, just before Delores laid her second small clutch. I learned a ton of stuff and really enjoyed talking with people and sharing new info. I asked several forum members for their opinions at that time and even called Richard Fife at one members suggestion. The end result was a few tweaks in my routine. I added Mazuri twice a week to their diet. I increased calcium supplementation for the adults, especially Delores. I began feeding more. Much more. Mr. Cory kindly and generously started including me in his weekly produce runs to the wholesaler. He would buy enough for mine and his and refused to take any money for it. (Thanks again Cory!) I also planted a ton of stuff and found lots of new sources for safe weeds, flowers and mulberry leaves. I began soaking much more often and provided shallow in ground water tubs full time. (Thanks for the pizza dough tubs Cory!) I built them a new and much better tortoise house to keep them much warmer on cold nights and through the winter months. I increased their roaming and grazing time for exercise outside their pens on the whole five acre ranch. Mind you, they always had grass hay available, and still do, and ate lots of it. They got watered and soaked regularly, just not as much as now. They had adequate night heat, but it was just that. Adequate.

Fast forward, after one year of the new routine and WHAM! I've already got TWO clutches of 12 out of Delores. I suspect a third is on the way. We went from 3 to 7 to 24. What a difference a year makes. I don't know if its just one factor or some combo of all of them, but its clearly a big difference and demonstrates the difference between thriving and just surviving.

I started my 3 hatchlings in May with this new routine of lots of humidity, hydration and moisture and just a moderate, normal amount of food. They are growing faster than any other tortoises, I've ever raised in the past. Normally fast growth is frowned upon. But I'm not "powerfeeding" them. I'm not feeding them any more than I've ever fed most of the tortoises I've raised. My three adults were the first and only time I tried the reduced food method. These babies are growing quickly, but still very healthy AND smooth. They are clearly thriving and not just surviving. Same for my leopard babies and my monitor lizards too.

I made mistakes of ignorance in the past. I'm sure I'm making some now and will continue to make more in the future. I share this info in the hopes of inspiring others to never stop trying to learn. I'm hoping by pointing out what I did wrong, others can avoid making the same mistakes and having to learn "the hard way" as I have.


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## jrholls (Mar 9, 2011)

Tom,

I really appreciate this last post. I'm not a breeder or anything, but it is my goal for my tortoise to thrive. I think that's the hardest part of having a tortoise for me, is wondering if she is thriving or merely surviving. Boy I wish they could talk sometimes  
Thank you for sharing and congratulations on Delores


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## Torty Mom (Mar 9, 2011)

Awesome post Tom!! I appreciate everything you have said. You are AMAZING, and kind and always willing to help. Not to mention encouraging also!!


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## Angi (Mar 9, 2011)

Great post!


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## spikethebest (Mar 9, 2011)

awesome post!!!!!!!!!!!! i love learning all that you have learned, and I even more love to learn them in real time with you!!


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## Balboa (Mar 9, 2011)

Great post Tom,

I think this is something many keepers need to realize, there is a difference between surviving and thriving. Tortoises are actually very tough critters, designed to survive terrible conditions that will kill many other species. 

It is quite possible that many of us "think" we are doing great by our torts, they're living, growing, copulating etc. , so it gets easy to get stuck in the rut of "why reinvent the wheel?", what I'm doing is working.

You had the low clutch rates to clue you in. What other cues are there for folks to look for to indicate their torts may not be thriving? This is were things get tough, opinions can be strong and established keepers often don't like to question what they know. Inactivity (pretty rocks)? Slow Growth? We've frequently heard it said that these are normal and desireable things. They certainly are NOT signs of thriving however.

LOL go figure 
while I'm taking forever to type up a serious response the peanut gallery chimes in. Too Funny.


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## John (Mar 9, 2011)

excellent response balboa but just too clarify,the thread was meant more as a general husbandry thing regarding all species of chelonians were as the pretty rocks reference would only pertain too babcocker's. thanx john


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2011)

Thanks Tom great post


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## Balboa (Mar 9, 2011)

Tyler, where did you find that?

I think my daughters would LOVE to have necklaces like that. The oldest has decided she's going to be a "tortoise scientist".


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## Madkins007 (Mar 9, 2011)

Tom- Amen, brother! 

I get frustrated by the 'good enough' thinking I see so often in many hobbies, not just tortoise keeping. Sure- if you do this regimen, the animal stays alive and looks pretty, but the REAL question is "are you getting good reproductive success?" 

After all- when we get good, viable clutches of hatchlings is when we know we have figured out the 'secret' to keeping the more difficult species. 

It is unfortunate that so many of us have to blunder around in the dark for a few years before these guys get big enough to breed. It would be nice to have some good guidelines to use to help us know we are on the right path. Growth charts, body weight ratios, etc. can help a little, but that does not ensure that every part of the animal is growing right and working perfectly.

If I may be so bold, it looks like you are suggesting...
1. GOOD WATER- Offer plenty of water, frequent soaks, well-designed soaking pans, etc.
2. GOOD HOUSING- Fresh air, plenty of room to roam, living plants to eat from freely. I would assume this also means plenty of hiding places as well.
3. GOOD FOOD- Plenty of wholesome foods with as much variety as possible, supplemented freely with nutritious 'outdoor' plants. Add a high-quality processed food for a significant portion of the meal, and supplement further with calcium*.
4. GOOD CLIMATE- Free access to high quality sunshine, as well as shade/hides. Good warmth and humidity.

Did I get it about right? Basically, what we have been suggesting, kicked up a few notches in the right directions. 


I also think the essential difference between 'forced' growth and 'fast' but healthy growth is food choices. Put a ton of fatty, protein rich, high carb foods in front of a tortoise, and it will go to town- adding muscle, bone, nerves, hormones, etc. unevenly and in an unhealthy way. It is growing all right, and may even hit reproduction age earlier, but it is at a cost.

On the other hand, offer it the opportunity to eat a variety of foods that are generally low-fat, low animal protein, low-carb and high in fiber and good stuff, and you get a more balanced, natural growth. Probably faster than the wild animals, but most tortoises come from areas without a lot of food which is probably the main reason they grow so slowly naturally.


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## Tom (Mar 9, 2011)

Ahh... the peanut gallery. Show someone some gratitude and be made a laughing stock. Real nice fellas. Don't ask why, when you get yours...

Everyone else, thanks for the thoughtful responses. And yes, Mark, that's just about right. I'm still sussing out the details of "fast" growth in my head. Does anyone have data on the growth of sulcatas and leopards in the wild? I wonder what constitutes "fast" either healthy or otherwise.


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## gummybearpoop (Mar 9, 2011)

Good thread Tom, but great reply Tyler.


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## mike1011 (Mar 9, 2011)

Tom said:


> Ahh... the peanut gallery. Show someone some gratitude and be made a laughing stock. Real nice fellas. Don't ask why, when you get yours...
> 
> Everyone else, thanks for the thoughtful responses. And yes, Mark, that's just about right. I'm still sussing out the details of "fast" growth in my head. Does anyone have data on the growth of sulcatas and leopards in the wild? I wonder what constitutes "fast" either healthy or otherwise.



I dont think you should even consider comparing growth rates of captive to wild torts. Wild torts have way to many variables to contend with that ours dont.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Mar 9, 2011)

Madkins007 said:


> Tom- Amen, brother!
> 
> I get frustrated by the 'good enough' thinking I see so often in many hobbies, not just tortoise keeping. Sure- if you do this regimen, the animal stays alive and looks pretty, but the REAL question is "are you getting good reproductive success?"
> 
> ...


Interesting!


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## Robert (Mar 9, 2011)

Nice post Tom. The "thriving vs surviving" debate is very important for all animal owners. Unfortunately I think it is a question which, all too often, pet owners are not willing to ask themselves. I have certainly been included in that myself in the past. It is difficult to look inward and really question, "Am I doing right by my pet?". At the same time, occasionally taking the time for this reflection often leads to increased awareness and improvement in husbandry. 

That being said, you will always have experts who know everything and never take the time to continually re-examine their practices. Unfortunate. 

Nice post.


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## bettinge (Mar 10, 2011)

Tom said:


> Ahh... the peanut gallery. Show someone some gratitude and be made a laughing stock. Real nice fellas. Don't ask why, when you get yours...
> 
> Everyone else, thanks for the thoughtful responses. And yes, Mark, that's just about right. I'm still sussing out the details of "fast" growth in my head. Does anyone have data on the growth of sulcatas and leopards in the wild? I wonder what constitutes "fast" either healthy or otherwise.



Tom,

In the Hermanns books I read, they state "wild growth rates" that seem outrageously slow. I actually believe the growth rates are facts, but nearly impossible for a "responsible tort owner" to achieve. In captivity, we tend to over feed high calorie store greens, keep them in consistently high temps (higher on average 24/7/365), and artificially hibernate them shorter periods than wild, if at all. 

Would you agree with this? Does a well kept captive tort outlive an average wild tort? My guess is yes.

I personally have trouble not feeding a begging tortoise, I prefer the occasional "cool days" where the lights/heat stay off, and movement and food consumption is minimal. Obviously during the winter months when they are under lights in New York.


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## Tom (Mar 10, 2011)

bettinge said:


> Tom,
> 
> In the Hermanns books I read, they state "wild growth rates" that seem outrageously slow. I actually believe the growth rates are facts, but nearly impossible for a "responsible tort owner" to achieve. In captivity, we tend to over feed high calorie store greens, keep them in consistently high temps (higher on average 24/7/365), and artificially hibernate them shorter periods than wild, if at all.
> 
> ...



Good points and good questions, Scott.

Due to the lifespan of tortoises, I don't think anyone reading this will ever know the answers to the longevity questions.


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## GBtortoises (Mar 11, 2011)

I am very familiar with the Hermann's books being referred too, both are very good books by excellent German authors who have extensive experience with these species in captivity and in the wild. I really don't think the wild growth rates stated in those books are "outrageously slow" at all. I think that they're normal and as they should be in the wild and as they should be strived for in captivity. 
I've maintained for nearly three decades now that the majority of tortoises raised in captivity are grown too quickly due to being in constantly excessive heat, fed a diet extremely rich in vitamins and minerals and high in calories. All the things that you stated above are absolutely true. Many of the tortoises shown on this site are examples of that. Several have obvious signs of accelerated growth, due to the above conditions. 2 & 3 year old tortoises wouldn't be adult size and sexually mature if they were in the wild. Many of these types of tortoises that I have personally encountered over the years not only do not look like their wild or correctly raised counterparts, but they are often more "frail" in comparison.
No one here has proof that a captive born and raised tortoise will outlive a wild tortoise, or vice versa. None of us have been around long enough to be able to proof it and probably won't be. Wild caught tortoises in most cases are often up against adverse daily survival challenges. Heat, cold, dryness, flooding, sparse food availability, predators, mankind and more. But over thousands of years they have adapted, survived and in most cases, thrived and expanded their populations (until we got involved). Captive born and/or captive raised tortoises are subject to none of the above, except mankind. Many people pamper them, overfeed them, feed them what is to the tortoise, junkfood. Keep them excessively hot with little to no daily fluctuation, nevermind seasonal changes. Often in a small box that doesn't come remotely close to enough area for normal activity. So the end result is that the captive tortoise takes in far more calories, vitamins and minerals that it's body cannot properly use in the way that it was "designed". Which results in tortoises that grow too rapidly, mature too quickly, often times bumpy, pyramided or appearing as if they're "growing out of their shell" and look (and sometime act), different than they're wild counterparts. I personally don't think we're doing them any favors (or the species any justice) by doing this. Maybe I'm too much of purist, but I constantly strive to raise my tortoises to look and act like they're wild counterparts because that look is part of what attracted me to tortoises and turtles in the first place, not a bumpy, pale skinned tortoise with overgrown beaks and nails.
I know that all of the above practices will continue regardless of what myself or anyone else says. I'm okay with that because while I think it may be wrong, they're not my animals to have any say over. I'll continue to raise mine slow, smooth, healthy and as close as possible to they're wild counterparts as I can under captive conditions. It's what I prefer to do.


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## Seiryu (Mar 11, 2011)

GB - I totally agree with trying to give them a more natural environment, giving them foods that they see in their area and trying to let them be the judge on how much they eat by letting them graze themselves.

However, I don't agree that overfeeding always contributes to bumpy shells. Look at Tom. He tried to raise his first Sulcatas very slow, and never sprayed their shells probably. His pyramided. Now he has hatchlings that are likely bigger than wild hatchlings at the same age, that are as smooth as can be.

I noticed this myself and my own 2 tortoises. I got both of these Leopards (babcocki) at the 3-4 month mark. Doubting they were sprayed at all before I obtained them. So likely that was part of the problem too. 

Thor, my now 2 year old started to pyramid at around 5-6 months old. Ambient humidity was high, humid hides, he had a water dish, got soaked multiple times a week. He got outside every day he could for hours. I never sprayed his shell as it was unheard of for leopards at the time. I fed him less because I was told to grow him slow. He weighed about 80 grams at the 1 year mark.

A year later, I got another Leopard, Sif. I sprayed her shell from the first day I got her every day, multiple times a day. That was ALL I changed with her. Diet remained the same, same humid hides, same soaking, same everything. She weighed almost 150 grams at the 1 year mark. I think she is the smoothest 1 year old Leopard on the forum. Very very slight almost non noticeable bumpiness. But I didn't have the honor of getting her in her first couple of weeks in life either.


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## Saloli (Mar 11, 2011)

yeah i ask myself on a regular basis how the shelled ones that live with me are doing. sometimes i know i can do better sometimes i'm doing the best with the infomation availalble. if any of you are herpetologists (professional or even amature) the the Society for the Study of Amphibians and Reptiles (SSAR) has several publications and sometimes their are studies published on captive husbantry as well as wild diets and ecology of turtles and tortoises. just figured i would tell you all of a possible source of information for those not aware of it's existance.


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## Az tortoise compound (Mar 11, 2011)

GBtortoises said:


> I am very familiar with the Hermann's books being referred too, both are very good books by excellent German authors who have extensive experience with these species in captivity and in the wild. I really don't think the wild growth rates stated in those books are "outrageously slow" at all. I think that they're normal and as they should be in the wild and as they should be strived for in captivity.
> I've maintained for nearly three decades now that the majority of tortoises raised in captivity are grown too quickly due to being in constantly excessive heat, fed a diet extremely rich in vitamins and minerals and high in calories. All the things that you stated above are absolutely true. Many of the tortoises shown on this site are examples of that. Several have obvious signs of accelerated growth, due to the above conditions. 2 & 3 year old tortoises wouldn't be adult size and sexually mature if they were in the wild. Many of these types of tortoises that I have personally encountered over the years not only do not look like their wild or correctly raised counterparts, but they are often more "frail" in comparison.
> No one here has proof that a captive born and raised tortoise will outlive a wild tortoise, or vice versa. None of us have been around long enough to be able to proof it and probably won't be. Wild caught tortoises in most cases are often up against adverse daily survival challenges. Heat, cold, dryness, flooding, sparse food availability, predators, mankind and more. But over thousands of years they have adapted, survived and in most cases, thrived and expanded their populations (until we got involved). Captive born and/or captive raised tortoises are subject to none of the above, except mankind. Many people pamper them, overfeed them, feed them what is to the tortoise, junkfood. Keep them excessively hot with little to no daily fluctuation, nevermind seasonal changes. Often in a small box that doesn't come remotely close to enough area for normal activity. So the end result is that the captive tortoise takes in far more calories, vitamins and minerals that it's body cannot properly use in the way that it was "designed". Which results in tortoises that grow too rapidly, mature too quickly, often times bumpy, pyramided or appearing as if they're "growing out of their shell" and look (and sometime act), different than they're wild counterparts. I personally don't think we're doing them any favors (or the species any justice) by doing this. Maybe I'm too much of purist, but I constantly strive to raise my tortoises to look and act like they're wild counterparts because that look is part of what attracted me to tortoises and turtles in the first place, not a bumpy, pale skinned tortoise with overgrown beaks and nails.
> I know that all of the above practices will continue regardless of what myself or anyone else says. I'm okay with that because while I think it may be wrong, they're not my animals to have any say over. I'll continue to raise mine slow, smooth, healthy and as close as possible to they're wild counterparts as I can under captive conditions. It's what I prefer to do.



Great post!


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## Saloli (Mar 11, 2011)

*captive. I also agree on the topic of replicating the native environment of the species being kept because thats what the are adapted to as species. I also try to replicate natural diets as close as possible (when know). Take for example EBTs they love earth worms which make up a good part of their natural diet so like the nut that most of my friends and family know I am I go worming or I buy earth worms, either way I try to meet that need to the best of my ability. The reason I bring up boxers is like torts (with some exceptions) they are slow growing slow to reach sexual onset (eqivalent to puberty in mammals), and long lived. I don't have much expieiance with torts other than red foots, and russians, so I'm not sure how smart they are compared to Boxers but if they are even if they are not I still think that the should have the minds exersized sometimes for forest dwellers that can mean something as simple as putting a new log in their pen to give them a problem to solve.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Mar 11, 2011)

GBtortoises said:


> I am very familiar with the Hermann's books being referred too, both are very good books by excellent German authors who have extensive experience with these species in captivity and in the wild. I really don't think the wild growth rates stated in those books are "outrageously slow" at all. I think that they're normal and as they should be in the wild and as they should be strived for in captivity.
> I've maintained for nearly three decades now that the majority of tortoises raised in captivity are grown too quickly due to being in constantly excessive heat, fed a diet extremely rich in vitamins and minerals and high in calories. All the things that you stated above are absolutely true. Many of the tortoises shown on this site are examples of that. Several have obvious signs of accelerated growth, due to the above conditions. 2 & 3 year old tortoises wouldn't be adult size and sexually mature if they were in the wild. Many of these types of tortoises that I have personally encountered over the years not only do not look like their wild or correctly raised counterparts, but they are often more "frail" in comparison.
> No one here has proof that a captive born and raised tortoise will outlive a wild tortoise, or vice versa. None of us have been around long enough to be able to proof it and probably won't be. Wild caught tortoises in most cases are often up against adverse daily survival challenges. Heat, cold, dryness, flooding, sparse food availability, predators, mankind and more. But over thousands of years they have adapted, survived and in most cases, thrived and expanded their populations (until we got involved). Captive born and/or captive raised tortoises are subject to none of the above, except mankind. Many people pamper them, overfeed them, feed them what is to the tortoise, junkfood. Keep them excessively hot with little to no daily fluctuation, nevermind seasonal changes. Often in a small box that doesn't come remotely close to enough area for normal activity. So the end result is that the captive tortoise takes in far more calories, vitamins and minerals that it's body cannot properly use in the way that it was "designed". Which results in tortoises that grow too rapidly, mature too quickly, often times bumpy, pyramided or appearing as if they're "growing out of their shell" and look (and sometime act), different than they're wild counterparts. I personally don't think we're doing them any favors (or the species any justice) by doing this. Maybe I'm too much of purist, but I constantly strive to raise my tortoises to look and act like they're wild counterparts because that look is part of what attracted me to tortoises and turtles in the first place, not a bumpy, pale skinned tortoise with overgrown beaks and nails.
> I know that all of the above practices will continue regardless of what myself or anyone else says. I'm okay with that because while I think it may be wrong, they're not my animals to have any say over. I'll continue to raise mine slow, smooth, healthy and as close as possible to they're wild counterparts as I can under captive conditions. It's what I prefer to do.


I like what you said. I will add that we allow our young aldabras to browse at will on natural vegitation. I will also say that they tend to grow slower here, however they are very smooth, strong and heavy compared to those that are kept different.


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## Tom (Mar 11, 2011)

I'm finding this whole discussion pretty interesting. As each of you describes your preferences, your results and why you like it that way, I'm able to infer a lot. I'm so turned off by the "slow growth" thing because it did not give me what I was after (smooth growth), and seems to have permanently stunted what are supposed to be giants. I think a big difference in our experiences might be that the weeds and grazing at the time I was raising these guys was a lot lower than it would be in NY or Florida. Its pretty sparse and dry here, and back in those days I kept most of the weeds out of their pens. I would feed them certain ones that I knew were okay, but avoided most of them due to ignorance. It seems like my idea of feeding them a "normal" amount of food is probably more in line with what you guys have been doing all along with natural grazing.

After all; what is a "moderate" amount of food? My sulcatas eat everything that I give them. Could they eat more? Yes. Do they leave leftovers? No. I suspect that we are all doing similar things, but balancing everything out in our own ways. I don't think anyone wants to induce fast growth by overfeeding. I think we just explain it differently. I'm talking about those of us involved in this discussion, not the few tortoise folks out there that put loads of food and Mazuri out and stuff their tortoises to the gills everyday with grocery store greens. All of my torts of all species have that heavy feel. They are all growing smooth now too. They are all in big outdoor pens, so lots of muscle and strength building exercise.

It is starting to seem to me that through grazing and grocery store supplementation we are all probably feeding a similar "moderate" amount. My sulcata and leopard babies are growing faster than they did for me in my past "sparse" days, but I don't think they are growing all that fast in general. My leopards actually seem to be growing pretty slow, but still nice and steady. Interesting too that between GB, me and Greg, we are talking about small, medium and large, but sort of getting at the same thing. I really wonder how fast my torts are growing compared to their wild counterparts.


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## GBtortoises (Mar 12, 2011)

All other things aside, I think one of the key elemental differences between wild caught and captive born tortoises is diet. There are obviously equally important elements involved in tortoise welfare, but diet to me, is the most notably different between the two scenarios. Almost all wild tortoises, regardless of species and geographical area have access to a diet that is usually very low quality (in terms of nutrition). At least for a good part of there activity season. Therefore most have evolved to consume large amounts of this low nutrition diet in order to sustain themselves. Around this (and their climate) has evolved their active periods, rest periods, mating season and so on. 
Then look at the majority of captive raised tortoises-take away most if not all of those environmental hardships, then double, triple, quadriple or more the amount of vitamins and minerals that they're getting, many of which they're body doesn't even require, along with substantially increasing the volume of food on a regular basis. Add that all together with an animal that instinctually eats as much food as possible when it's available.
When I mentioned bumpy shells in my above post I wasn't referring to pyramiding. I'm referring to the affect of individual scutes growing in small, rounded or nearly flat top domes. Pyramiding, as far as we can tell nowadays is linked to lack of moisture content during the growth development period of a tortoise. The smooth bumps that I am referring to are often a later sign of accelerated growth. They're not as pronounced as pyramiding. Other signs can be wider than normal growth rings, exaggerated looking nails, expansive skin tissue between limb scales, excessive clear keratin growth at the edge of the mariginal scutes and more. This is all especially noticeable when comparing an excelerated and regular growth rate tortoise side by side.
I think I can provide a photo comparison of what I'm talking about. I have a couple of Marginateds that I traded someone last fall that have some early signs of accelerated growth. I'm not home but will take some photos and post them later this weekend.


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## Robert (Mar 12, 2011)

For owners in colder climates who follow an indoor winter, outdoor summer routine: have you noticed accelerated growth during the summer months? I'm assuming that the indoor winter months would be higher in store bought/processed diets, scheduled feeding, less natural sunlight, less exercise. The summer months would be just the opposite, grazing, more natural diet, lots of sun etc.


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## John (Mar 12, 2011)

CtTortoise said:


> For owners in colder climates who follow an indoor winter, outdoor summer routine: have you noticed accelerated growth during the summer months? I'm assuming that the indoor winter months would be higher in store bought/processed diets, scheduled feeding, less natural sunlight, less exercise. The summer months would be just the opposite, grazing, more natural diet, lots of sun etc.



excellent question


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## GBtortoises (Mar 12, 2011)

CtTortoise said:


> For owners in colder climates who follow an indoor winter, outdoor summer routine: have you noticed accelerated growth during the summer months? I'm assuming that the indoor winter months would be higher in store bought/processed diets, scheduled feeding, less natural sunlight, less exercise. The summer months would be just the opposite, grazing, more natural diet, lots of sun etc.



I live in upstate New York, so regrettably, I have to do the routine that you mention above. Young tortoises that I keep awake during the winter absolutely grow at a faster rate indoors than they do outdoors if I don't monitor every aspect of their care to avoid it. It's not 100% avoidable indoors, but any accelerated growth can be "controlled". I don't have a problem with accelerated growth outdoors at all. Once outdoors mine are kept as naturally as possible. Indoors is where the concern is. Accelerated growth takes place for exactly the reasons that you listed. I try to carefully monitor what I feed my tortoises indoors in terms of content and duration between feedings. I fluctuate the room temperature that they're in by opening and closing the door to the room. They are still very active, due to temperatures and light intensity, which is what I want them to be.


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## Robert (Mar 12, 2011)

GBTorts: thanks for that feedback. Exactly what I was looking for.


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## Tom (Mar 12, 2011)

GB, if you ever come to CA I would love for you to come check out my torts and my set-up.

My older torts are out all year long and due to the seasons and intermittent weed growth, I think they are set up pretty close to "natural" all year long. They get the hot and the cold, the longer and shorter days, and all the weather and its variations. My only real question just how much food do I need to provide for them to mimic "natural". From about December to May we get all the rain and waist high weeds. I leave out a flake of grass hay during this time and they all munch on it, but I don't "feed" them much. The just run around and graze all day. I do water the weeds during dry spells to keep them from drying out. From June to November I have to provide them with additional food. Sort of like your indoor season. I throw a lot of mulberry branches in there along with what ever I can scavenge up as far as weeds, cactus and grass clippings.

In my original post I mentioned the new changes making them much healthier and increasing activity and fertility. Their warmer box and additional food, including the Mazuri, seem to have made a positive change in my case, but those are the exact things that you frown on and generally see as a problem for captive torts. This makes me wonder about two possibilities.

Possibility one: Maybe due to the sparse nature of the greenery out here, it is necessary to provide more "artificial" food to meet the nutritional needs that would be met more naturally elsewhere.

Possibility two: Maybe its a good strategy to initially grow them more slowly and naturally, but then try to simulate more natural "optimal time of year" conditions once they are older, grown and reproducing. Mine survived for 10 years on the sparse/natural/slow growth method, but they sure seem to be doing much better on the "mostly natural, but with a little extra help" routine.

I'd love to hear anyones opinions on these things. That's why I put this thread in the debatable section. Between all of the members on this forum there are HUNDREDS of years of combined experience from every sort of climate, species and husbandry method. I always love it when we can gain knowledge from each others experience. I think there is a tremendous amount of insight to be gain from GBs last couple of posts here.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 12, 2011)

My Dudley only grazes on bermuda grass and weeds. I occasionally toss him a couple mulberry branches, but rarely. Once we get the first frost, the bermuda goes dormant, but chickweed and other winter time weeds grow in the pen. Dudley still doesn't get fed. He has to graze on the brown, dead bermuda grass...and he DOES. His winter time poops are slightly blacker and moister than his summer time poops from the moist weeds, but still full of dried blades of grass. He's growing pretty slowly. When I got him he weighed 35lbs and had fertilized several clutches of eggs (he had been half of a breeding pair). It has taken him 13 years to get from 35lbs to 100lbs. I may be all wet, but in my way of thinking, he's living close to a natural lifestyle, the only exception being, the winters here are colder than his home world and are heat supplemented.


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## Tom (Mar 12, 2011)

Sounds pretty close to natural to me. That's pretty similar to what I was doing up until this last year. Mine were certainly growing slowly, and living "naturally" then too.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 12, 2011)

So what you're telling me is he's "surviving," and not "thriving?"


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## Tom (Mar 12, 2011)

emysemys said:


> So what you're telling me is he's "surviving," and not "thriving?"



I guess I should consider the wider implications of some of my statements before I open my big mouth...

I would like to refer to this paragraph from post #45 above.
"Possibility two: Maybe its a good strategy to initially grow them more slowly and naturally, but then try to simulate more natural "optimal time of year" conditions once they are older, grown and reproducing. Mine survived for 10 years on the sparse/natural/slow growth method, but they sure seem to be doing much better on the "mostly natural, but with a little extra help" routine."

Since Dudley is a fully grown adult male, I'd consider his care and what he needs to "thrive" as different than my little males or young female that are producing eggs every year. Certainly different from my juveniles too.

Do YOU think he is surviving OR thriving? I'll take your word for it either way.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 12, 2011)

I should have put  after my last question. I'm happy with his care. It doesn't matter to me if he "thrives." I think he's healthy and content.


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 12, 2011)

emysemys said:


> I should have put  after my last question. I'm happy with his care. It doesn't matter to me if he "thrives." I think he's healthy and content.



And THAT is why I hesitate to have Bob over winter with you. You SHOULD care if he thrives, he is in your care and as such it is your job to make sure he thrives. You are the god of his world, you are the being who provides his only care and food and heat and anything that happens to him. It is your job to make him thrive, that's why I consider sending Bob to you, because I think he is NOT thriving here during the winter. He looks peaked and dehydrated. I know he thrives here all Spring and Summer but he's having a hard time this Winter and I think part of that is because he's not drinking enough and he's having to stay inside his shed too many days. This Winter has been harder on him than any Winter before this. So next Winter Bob will go stay with you and it will be your job to make him thrive...


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## Az tortoise compound (Mar 12, 2011)

Definitely sisters


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## Maggie Cummings (Mar 12, 2011)

Az tortoise compound said:


> Definitely sisters



I do all the fighting and she mostly ignores me...


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## Saloli (Mar 15, 2011)

oh I don't know if any of you guys kow this but Bermuda Grass is accually from Africa both the Sahal (where Salcutas are from) and east Africa. This means there is a good chance the eat it naturally.


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