# Esmeralda needs surgery



## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 17, 2019)

So I got a call from the vet today and the blood results confirm their suspicions that Es has pre ovulatory follicular stasis and needs to have an ovariectomy.

Es has zero clinical symptoms, other than the fact she thinks she has eggs to lay and keeps digging nests, but I saw the follicles myself on the ultrasound.

I know it’s ridiculous but I’m pissed. Pissed that to my knowledge I’ve done everything right here raising this tortoise, and yet she has a reproductive disease that might be my fault. Apparently the etiology is unknown, but proposed causes are lack of males, or suboptimal husbandry/nutrition.

As she’s never been mated, I’m guilty of the former, but I certainly didn’t think the latter. I know my climate is not suitable for this species, but she is not poorly maintained. It kinda hurts.

Obviously, I’m worried about the surgery, but the vet told me it was ‘routine’ surgery and they’d performed many surgeries for this and other similar things via plastron osteotomy, with positive outcomes. I still don’t feel any better about it though.

@Jodie, I know Scarlett had a plastron osteotomy years ago; how did she recover? Did you lose your mind at the prospect of this or am I just overreacting?


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## Sleppo (Jul 17, 2019)

Sorry she's going through this, I have been reading up on this topic lately too as I presume one of my females may have the same thing going on. There really doesn't seem to be a lot of info on it on this forum which is making me think it's rare or commonly misdiagnosed. Good luck with the surgery I am interested in hearing some input from the other members.


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 18, 2019)

Sleppo said:


> Sorry she's going through this, I have been reading up on this topic lately too as I presume one of my females may have the same thing going on. There really doesn't seem to be a lot of info on it on this forum which is making me think it's rare or commonly misdiagnosed. Good luck with the surgery I am interested in hearing some input from the other members.



Thanks for your reply.

Why do you suspect your female has it? 

There doesn’t seem to be much information on it at all, despite my efforts to research online, although it seems common in bearded dragons and iguanas. 

The vet appeared quite knowledgable, and reassured me that he’d done this surgery multiple times in turtles, tortoises, lizards etc with positive recovery. He was a little too blasé for my liking actually but I suppose it’s trivial to a professional who has no investment in the animal. 

The diagnosis, from what I understand is purely presumptive based on history and diagnostic testing. Although, I expected her to have some outward symptoms: not eating, not defecating, weakness in hind legs, lethargy etc. None have been presented - she’s just acting gravid.

I’m not expecting much input from forum members, as I asked in a previous post if anyone had any experience, but go no replies, so I don’t think anyone has.


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## Sleppo (Jul 18, 2019)

I have 2 mature female Russians and a few weeks ago one randomly started digging nests. Neither have ever laid eggs or been with a male. She's still eating and acting normal but is digging the nests on and off. I'm keeping a close eye on her for now and doing online research. I figure I'll take her in for an x-ray/blood work if she starts acting like something is wrong, I am hoping she just lays an unfertilized egg and is done.

I am not too keen on my vet either, the last time I had them in the vet literally pulled out a book in front of me to refer to. Made me very nervous!

Hoping for the best for both of us and that we get some replies.


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## NorCal tortoise guy (Jul 18, 2019)

Wish I could be of help but I have never even heard of this before. To me the idea of surgery on an animal that is acting completely healthy seems like a bad idea. But I’m not a vet


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 19, 2019)

Sleppo said:


> I have 2 mature female Russians and a few weeks ago one randomly started digging nests. Neither have ever laid eggs or been with a male. She's still eating and acting normal but is digging the nests on and off. I'm keeping a close eye on her for now and doing online research. I figure I'll take her in for an x-ray/blood work if she starts acting like something is wrong, I am hoping she just lays an unfertilized egg and is done.



And the most likely outcome is that she will - I only went for the X Ray, as the nesting went on far too long with no fruition.



Sleppo said:


> I am not too keen on my vet either, the last time I had them in the vet literally pulled out a book in front of me to refer to. Made me very nervous!



That would make me nervous too. Exotic vets are few and far between where I live, but this one came recommended from a friend.


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 19, 2019)

NorCal tortoise guy said:


> Wish I could be of help but I have never even heard of this before. To me the idea of surgery on an animal that is acting completely healthy seems like a bad idea. But I’m not a vet



Thanks for your input. Of course, and surgery, in any situation is the last thing I want. Just to clarify - she _appears_ healthy, but she has been digging nests intermittently now for months, but has no eggs to lay. That’s not normal. She also has 2-2.5cm follicles on her ovaries, that should have ovulated and haven’t. Believe me, I’m not taking surgery lightly.


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## ascott (Jul 20, 2019)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> And the most likely outcome is that she will - I only went for the X Ray, as the nesting went on far too long with no fruition.
> 
> 
> 
> That would make me nervous too. Exotic vets are few and far between where I live, but this one came recommended from a friend.


And you are certain you have "two" females right? I would super get a second opinion and not give the new vet any of the "diagnosis" from this vet to them.....just present the same info as you did and offer no opinion....I also would not do surgery on a tortoise that is eating/basking/mobile...perhaps offer up some private spots and alone time for each tort..perhaps she is holding off due to not feeling the rightness of dropping eggs????


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 20, 2019)

ascott said:


> And you are certain you have "two" females right? I would super get a second opinion and not give the new vet any of the "diagnosis" from this vet to them.....just present the same info as you did and offer no opinion....I also would not do surgery on a tortoise that is eating/basking/mobile...perhaps offer up some private spots and alone time for each tort..perhaps she is holding off due to not feeling the rightness of dropping eggs????



No, it’s @Sleppo who has two females. The tortoise scheduled for surgery is my 15year old Leopard, who is housed alone and always has been.

It’s difficult because while she doesn’t appear ‘sick’ there is definitely something wrong, and I did consider a second opinion, but if the diagnosis is correct, sorting this out early before she does become sick seems smart to me. 

I don’t know. I don’t want to do it, but I’m not a reptile vet, and if I ignore their advice and then this diagnosis is correct and it progresses and gets worse, I won’t be able to forgive myself. I want to do what’s best for the tortoise; it’s difficult.


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## ascott (Jul 20, 2019)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> No, it’s @Sleppo who has two females. The tortoise scheduled for surgery is my 15year old Leopard, who is housed alone and always has been.
> 
> It’s difficult because while she doesn’t appear ‘sick’ there is definitely something wrong, and I did consider a second opinion, but if the diagnosis is correct, sorting this out early before she does become sick seems smart to me.
> 
> I don’t know. I don’t want to do it, but I’m not a reptile vet, and if I ignore their advice and then this diagnosis is correct and it progresses and gets worse, I won’t be able to forgive myself. I want to do what’s best for the tortoise; it’s difficult.


My apology on the mix up of the two members....

However, as you are worried about not taking the advise of one vet....in fear they may be right. I would also be equally concerned that the "diagnosis" is not correct and then on that side of the coin, you will also be placing the tort in a harmful situation that is not necessary...you know? How long has the tort been digging? Months? What does that mean? I ask because, temp change, ground change, maturity and such can create behaviors in a creature that are exploratory and not necessary a problem....well, you are the one in complete control of this forced captive animal, so you will decide what you feel....I wish you and the tortoise much health and good luck


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 21, 2019)

ascott said:


> However, as you are worried about not taking the advise of one vet....in fear they may be right. I would also be equally concerned that the "diagnosis" is not correct and then on that side of the coin, you will also be placing the tort in a harmful situation that is not necessary...you know?



Thanks for your input, @ascott and I understand what you’re saying. If I decided on what I feel I wouldn’t have the surgery, as I’m emotionally invested; this is my pet, I love her, and I’m worried. However, I’m a rational person, and I work in logic and evidence and I have been presented with evidence of the diagnosis (x Ray, ultrasound and blood work) so it seems unreasoned for me to doubt this. 




ascott said:


> How long has the tort been digging? Months? What does that mean? I ask because, temp change, ground change, maturity and such can create behaviors in a creature that are exploratory and not necessary a problem....well, you are the one in complete control of this forced captive animal, so you will decide what you feel....I wish you and the tortoise much health and good luck



She’s been digging nests since April, the only outward symptom I have observed, and my initial reason for the vet visit. He said the follicular development in the ovaries are most likely making her think she’s gravid, when she’s not.

Thank you for your well wishes, it’s much appreciated.


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## Lyn W (Jul 21, 2019)

I'm so sorry to hear that Esmeralda and you are going through this. 
Please don't blame yourself it probably isn't anything you've done or not done, I know that Tom thinks highly of your methods and recommended that I contact you when I first had my leopard.
I can't help but @Yvonne G is breeding leopards so may have some experience of this or maybe @Tom can help. I think @Team Gomberg also keeps leopards. 
Wishing you and Es all the very best for a good recovery.


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## Tom (Jul 22, 2019)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> So I got a call from the vet today and the blood results confirm their suspicions that Es has pre ovulatory follicular stasis and needs to have an ovariectomy.
> 
> Es has zero clinical symptoms, other than the fact she thinks she has eggs to lay and keeps digging nests, but I saw the follicles myself on the ultrasound.
> 
> ...




Sounds like an over-reaction to me. Its summer. This is when they lay. There _should_ be active follicles in anticipation of a male finding her. Digging test holes is common in leopards in my experience. I see no reason for surgery of any kind.

If on the other hand eggs develop and she won't or can't lay them, egg-binding is potentially fatal. X-ray will reveal if this is the case, but I wouldn't anticipate this in your situation. If egg binding occurs, deal with it then. If this is just an antsy female that is wanting to breed, I'd leave her alone.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 22, 2019)

I have a female digging test nests currently too, but it never occurred to me something is wrong with the female. It's always been something wrong with the nest. The first two tests had small, tough roots that she couldn't dig past, and the third test had a big rock in it.

I certainly would NOT opt for surgery. I'd adopt a wait and see attitude.


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 22, 2019)

Tom said:


> Sounds like an over-reaction to me. Its summer. This is when they lay. There _should_ be active follicles in anticipation of a male finding her. Digging test holes is common in leopards in my experience. I see no reason for surgery of any kind.



Hi Tom, thanks for your input. I’m aware that digging test holes was common, but I was under the impression that nest digging meant that eggs were likely to happen soon, if not imminent. Is that not the case? It’s just that she’s been been doing this since April, and the X-Ray last week showed no eggs.


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 22, 2019)

Lyn W said:


> I'm so sorry to hear that Esmeralda and you are going through this.
> Please don't blame yourself it probably isn't anything you've done or not done, I know that Tom thinks highly of your methods and recommended that I contact you when I first had my leopard.
> I can't help but @Yvonne G is breeding leopards so may have some experience of this or maybe @Tom can help. I think @Team Gomberg also keeps leopards.
> Wishing you and Es all the very best for a good recovery.



Thank you for being so sweet, Lyn. I’m a little stressed!


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 22, 2019)

Yvonne G said:


> I have a female digging test nests currently too, but it never occurred to me something is wrong with the female. It's always been something wrong with the nest. The first two tests had small, tough roots that she couldn't dig past, and the third test had a big rock in it.
> 
> I certainly would NOT opt for surgery. I'd adopt a wait and see attitude.



Hi Yvonne, thank you for that. I pretty much just asked Tom the same, but what’s the time frame between digging and laying roughly like? I thought nesting implied imminent laying. She’s been digging for 4 months almost now, and there are no eggs inside her as of an X -Ray last week. She’s just done another one this afternoon - dug up a 4 year old lavender bush and roots in the process!


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## Lyn W (Jul 22, 2019)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> Thank you for being so sweet, Lyn. I’m a little stressed!


That's understandable, I worry if Lola seems off colour.


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## TammyJ (Jul 22, 2019)

Tom and Yvonne are amazing. I would definitely do as they are suggesting. Hold off on the surgery. Wait and see as long as the tortoise is not displaying any indication of illness.


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## katieandiggy (Jul 22, 2019)

My exotic vet in the UK has carried out this operation successfully. Here is the case study:

https://www.exoticvetsuffolk.co.uk/suv.dll/case-study/15544/shelly-tortoise-ovariectomy-surgery


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## ascott (Jul 25, 2019)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> Thanks for your input, @ascott and I understand what you’re saying. If I decided on what I feel I wouldn’t have the surgery, as I’m emotionally invested; this is my pet, I love her, and I’m worried. However, I’m a rational person, and I work in logic and evidence and I have been presented with evidence of the diagnosis (x Ray, ultrasound and blood work) so it seems unreasoned for me to doubt this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well, logic tells me that there are no eggs bound in the xray, according to what you outline. You say this is a tortoise that has just started this behavior (last few months) and would mean somewhat the equal to the boys and the fun they find when they find the joy they acquire from their penis...something that is driving a behavior does not mean there is something wrong.


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## Tom (Jul 25, 2019)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> Hi Tom, thanks for your input. I’m aware that digging test holes was common, but I was under the impression that nest digging meant that eggs were likely to happen soon, if not imminent. Is that not the case? It’s just that she’s been been doing this since April, and the X-Ray last week showed no eggs.


This is a hormone driven behavior. Like what @ascott mentioned about the males flashing their penises. Her digging holes doesn't mean there are eggs coming. Its just means she's digging test holes because her hormone driven instincts tell her too.

As long as she is not forming eggs and then refusing to lay them, I would not do surgery to remove her sex organs. Other than a precautionary x ray from time to time, I see no reason to do anything at all except feed and enjoy your tortoise.


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 25, 2019)

Thanks, @ascott and @Tom. I agree that something that drives behaviour does not necessary mean something is wrong, but I can’t ignore the advice of a professional so easily. Can I ask, excluding the male showing behaviour comparison, what makes you sure this is nothing to worry about? Experience of this? Literature?

What is concerning the vet are the size and amount of follicles on the ovaries, a slightly low white blood cell count, increased blood calcium and other indicators that she is creating yolk. 

I value everyone’s input, and want to make an informed decision, but I need to be able to justify it. I also want to speak to the vet again before I do anything - in addition to disputes you have already made, is there anything else I should ask/challenge?

Thanks again.


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## TammyJ (Jul 25, 2019)

If you have actually already made up your mind to let the vet do the operation, then all the best to you and your tortoise, I hope it all works out well.
If it was me, I would only consider surgery as an emergency and a last resort, especially if it is only one particular vet that I have consulted, and not got a second opinion from another good herp vet.
You know that the people on this site are terrific, seeing as you have been here 5 years.


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 25, 2019)

TammyJ said:


> If you have actually already made up your mind to let the vet do the operation, then all the best to you and your tortoise, I hope it all works out well.
> If it was me, I would only consider surgery as an emergency and a last resort, especially if it is only one particular vet that I have consulted, and not got a second opinion from another good herp vet.
> You know that the people on this site are terrific, seeing as you have been here 5 years.



I haven’t made a decision yet; I want to get as much info, opinions and suggestions as I can first. Absolutely, some people on the forum are greatly experienced with chelonia and give great information - my own knowledge of reproductive diseases is limited though. Been here for 9 years actually!


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## mark1 (Jul 25, 2019)

has progesterone been tried ……. not sure of the size of your tortoise , but they can do a laparoscopic ovariectomy in small animals , dogs and cats ,they may not be there yet , but you'd think it'd be possible for a skilled reptile surgeon ?


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 25, 2019)

mark1 said:


> has progesterone been tried ……. not sure of the size of your tortoise , but they can do a laparoscopic ovariectomy in small animals , dogs and cats ,they may not be there yet , but you'd think it'd be possible for a skilled reptile surgeon ?



I believe surgery can be performed with incisions through the front of the hind leg, but depends on the species and size? I want to say I read somewhere this is probably only accessible in large tortoises.

Es isn’t that big - 8kg and about 14 inches SCL.


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## ascott (Jul 26, 2019)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> Hi Yvonne, thank you for that. I pretty much just asked Tom the same, but what’s the time frame between digging and laying roughly like? I thought nesting implied imminent laying. She’s been digging for 4 months almost now, and there are no eggs inside her as of an X -Ray last week. She’s just done another one this afternoon - dug up a 4 year old lavender bush and roots in the process!


So I went back and am reading all of your posts....if a tortoise has eggs and holding them for four months...there would be outward signs of distress....low or less eating, lethargy no desire to do much activity, etc. Just because you have the opinion of one vet does not make that vet correct, and what I mean by correct is---the vet does not "know" this to be the absolute diagnosis...only a guess based on a few items....that is a lot riding on the opinion of one person. I mean, it sounds as though (and I say, sounds as though) you have already jumped on the vets bleacher and therefore are having a hard time to take in other information/suggestions with that same open mind....therefore, as I did before, I wish you the best and I wish your tort the best. If it were me however, I would go back and forth in discussions with Tom and Yvonne and the many others here who that females doing "normal" behavior in the entire process of being a female tortoise (of a variety of species) and what that can mean vs what one vet is saying....Tom and Yvonne and a number of others here are an unmatched library of knowledge....I hope that you can open your mind and take that in. I also would strongly suggest you get another opinion....just because the vet was referred by a friend does not make the vets words all right.


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 26, 2019)

ascott said:


> So I went back and am reading all of your posts....if a tortoise has eggs and holding them for four months...there would be outward signs of distress....low or less eating, lethargy no desire to do much activity, etc. Just because you have the opinion of one vet does not make that vet correct, and what I mean by correct is---the vet does not "know" this to be the absolute diagnosis...only a guess based on a few items....that is a lot riding on the opinion of one person. I mean, it sounds as though (and I say, sounds as though) you have already jumped on the vets bleacher and therefore are having a hard time to take in other information/suggestions with that same open mind....therefore, as I did before, I wish you the best and I wish your tort the best. If it were me however, I would go back and forth in discussions with Tom and Yvonne and the many others here who that females doing "normal" behavior in the entire process of being a female tortoise (of a variety of species) and what that can mean vs what one vet is saying....Tom and Yvonne and a number of others here are an unmatched library of knowledge....I hope that you can open your mind and take that in. I also would strongly suggest you get another opinion....just because the vet was referred by a friend does not make the vets words all right.



I don’t understand this forum sometimes.

As I have said on every comment, I appreciate all responses and everyone taking time to read the thread and offer opinions, but honestly, as much as I value your response, I find it a bit patronising and confusing.

I am on the vet’s bleacher because I’m not going to dismiss their diagnosis outright? Or because I didn’t immediately accept the opinion of yourself and Tom, Yvonne without asking further questions to learn and clarify? 

I have admitted I am not an expert here, I have tried to separate my personal bias from this animal and be objective, I am trying to challenge my vet to understand the diagnosis, I am curious to your disagreement with my vet’s diagnosis, I am asking questions and actively trying to find evidence against this; how much more open minded can I be?

If I wasn’t interested in people challenging what I’m presenting, I wouldn’t be here. I would’ve smiled and nodded and handed her over for surgery a week ago.

I have taken your advice and sought a second veterinarian’s opinion, and in the meantime I am still very much interested in what questions I should be asking them, people’s opinions and any experiences that are similar to my situation.


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## ascott (Jul 27, 2019)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> I don’t understand this forum sometimes.
> 
> As I have said on every comment, I appreciate all responses and everyone taking time to read the thread and offer opinions, but honestly, as much as I value your response, I find it a bit patronising and confusing.
> 
> ...



Okay, so now you seem open to others . Sometimes I can come off a bid rash, but that is sometimes by design. I mean I completely understand that you do not know perfectly what to do because you are not an "expert". Hey, I have never labelled anyone an expert...to do so would designate that person responsible for all knowing and that just is not ever possible (exactly why a vet also is not the all knowing). 

I just would like for you to know that there are many here that have learned the hard way, and the tort at the mercy of a human, learned even the harder way with their life. I find that a lot of times we tend to think that a vet knows everything and they simply do not. If you had come here with the vets words of Maybe, Perhaps and this is what I think...then that would be more plausible. Plausible in that the vet should not automatically recommend a procedure based on a series of guesses....not a diagnosis. You have the information from the vet (and that should be strongly taken) and then you have the information here from many folks that also have personal first hand experience. I only mention Tom and Yvonne because well hell, Yvonne is seasoned both in the old and also partakes of the New Ways and Tom has a great interest in the New Ways (and that is not a dig, that is a positive comment intended from me). They both have had many females in their care and have observed, promoted and shared success and downfalls with their females....understand that a living creature can suffer death as anything else living can and as much as we all would love to save and help everything to live ....death is also part of life and while we may all do all that we can to support living forever, it is a hard thing to achieve.

No one here wants harm to come to the tortoise in your care...but we also know that a simple statement from one vet does not make us feel warm and fuzzy when we know that a vet can also be very quick to "label" what is wrong and want to do surgery or want to do injections...and while both of those things may be necessary, they may not always be.

So, if it were me...I would tell the second vet you are going to visit some of the behaviors of the tortoise (without giving any information that the first vet gave you) and then see what they come up with. Also know, I am not a big fan of stressing a tortoise out going to the vet...the car ride, the probing and handling...this is a very nomadic creature....and stress can bring out weakness in the health of a tortoise. So I would try a variety of things in my own control before I ever subjected a tortoise to the stress of a vet visit. Again, my way of thinking and not meaning to impose it onto you.

I do not want you to feel like me nor anyone here thinks taking the advice of a vet is the wrong thing. I personally just know that the vet is not always the best answer my dear.

I would like to bring in @Yvonne G and @Tom to offer up some detailed help that they may take if in your situation. I know Tom said no big issue in a prior post and Yvonne said she would not have thought there was a problem with with what you describe....perhaps they can offer up a little more insight as to why?


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## TammyJ (Jul 29, 2019)

ascott said:


> Okay, so now you seem open to others . Sometimes I can come off a bid rash, but that is sometimes by design. I mean I completely understand that you do not know perfectly what to do because you are not an "expert". Hey, I have never labelled anyone an expert...to do so would designate that person responsible for all knowing and that just is not ever possible (exactly why a vet also is not the all knowing).
> 
> I just would like for you to know that there are many here that have learned the hard way, and the tort at the mercy of a human, learned even the harder way with their life. I find that a lot of times we tend to think that a vet knows everything and they simply do not. If you had come here with the vets words of Maybe, Perhaps and this is what I think...then that would be more plausible. Plausible in that the vet should not automatically recommend a procedure based on a series of guesses....not a diagnosis. You have the information from the vet (and that should be strongly taken) and then you have the information here from many folks that also have personal first hand experience. I only mention Tom and Yvonne because well hell, Yvonne is seasoned both in the old and also partakes of the New Ways and Tom has a great interest in the New Ways (and that is not a dig, that is a positive comment intended from me). They both have had many females in their care and have observed, promoted and shared success and downfalls with their females....understand that a living creature can suffer death as anything else living can and as much as we all would love to save and help everything to live ....death is also part of life and while we may all do all that we can to support living forever, it is a hard thing to achieve.
> 
> ...


Thank you for continuing to try and help, Ascot. I have decided not to interfere any more as I don't want to sound patronising. I hope the tortoise will be OK.


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 30, 2019)

She had the surgery yesterday, and is recovering well so far.




The vet was spot on - she had follicular stasis as suspected due to the consistent gravid behaviour with no egg laying and the blood tests, notably the poor white blood cell count.

This is what was removed from her. 




Look at size and the colour of some of those follicles. Pretty nasty stuff. I actually cannot believe she seemed so bright and coped so well with the amount of those on her ovaries. This has clearly been an issue since at least last summer with no outward symptoms until this year and it may have damaged her liver. Time will tell.

@TammyJ, I am candid and honest; I wasn’t trying to be offhand, so I’ll preface this last statement by saying explicitly that I am NOT trying to antagonise anyone with what I’m about to say, but I think it’s important to acknowledge that had I taken the advice from this forum and assumed this was just exploratory or normal behaviour and left her alone as advised, this would not have ended well for my tortoise. 

No, this isn’t always the case; I have witnessed fantastic advice over the years here which have probably saved the lives of many animals, and I’ve learned a lot about tortoises. Yes, the people on this forum are fantastic, greatly experienced, helpful and wonderfully knowledgable, but I feel there is a lesson to be learned here; we are still only hobbyists on an Internet forum, and no matter how knowledgeable we are, we must always challenge and enquire and make judicious use of all information given to us, and this includes information from qualified reptile veterinarians.

Thank you again to anyone who gave advice or well wishes regarding this - I sincerely appreciate it. Essie isn’t out of the woods yet as she has to recover but hopefully this thread might help someone else who’s tortoise ever has this disease.

Some articles for reference on Follicular Stasis for anyone interested.

http://www.britishcheloniagroup.org.uk/vetscorner/stasis

https://www.vettimes.co.uk/article/reproductive-diseases-in-reptiles/?format=pdf

https://www.vetstream.com/treat/exotis/reptile/diseases/pre-post-ovulatory-stasis


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## EllieMay (Jul 31, 2019)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> She had the surgery yesterday, and is recovering well so far.
> 
> View attachment 277574
> 
> ...



Well said! Best wishes for a speedy recovery. Looking forward to updates!


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## wellington (Jul 31, 2019)

Glad everything is turning out good. 
I only wish that a pic of the xray would have been posted and the blood values would have been shared in your first statement about this problem. Giving all details from the beginning helps to give a much better informed response. Also that you now state it's been going on since last summer, all info held back from your original post. 
If you can, I'd still would like to see the xray. With as much as was taken from her and the size some of them look, it had to show on the xray like a big mass of a bunch of balls. 
A lesson to be learned from anyone reading this. Give all info upfront and as detailed as possible along with any pics to get the best informed advise.


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## Blackdog1714 (Jul 31, 2019)

WOW! Awesome for you and your Tortie. Personally I wouldn't hire your Vet to touch up any plaster walls, but it will hold! Being a pet parent is the worst, they are so stoic and can't tell us where it hurts! Here is to a full recovery!


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## katieandiggy (Jul 31, 2019)

So glad she is on the mend. 
I know my vet has carried out that operation before and for very similar symptoms to what you mentioned, the recovery was a long process but they got there in the end. 
Please keep us updated, I would love to hear about her recovery.


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 31, 2019)

wellington said:


> Glad everything is turning out good.
> I only wish that a pic of the xray would have been posted and the blood values would have been shared in your first statement about this problem. Giving all details from the beginning helps to give a much better informed response. Also that you now state it's been going on since last summer, all info held back from your original post.
> If you can, I'd still would like to see the xray. With as much as was taken from her and the size some of them look, it had to show on the xray like a big mass of a bunch of balls.
> A lesson to be learned from anyone reading this. Give all info upfront and as detailed as possible along with any pics to get the best informed advise.



Thanks @wellington. I don’t think I did hold anything back? I gave all the information I was given about the blood work: low white blood cells, increased calcium and yolk formation - (see post #23)

There was nothing on the X Ray, I saw it but don’t have a copy, but the follicles were visible via ultrasound. 

I didn’t know it was going on last year, the vet has just surmised this from the amount of follicles removed; she wasn’t digging or doing anything out of the ordinary last year.


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 31, 2019)

Blackdog1714 said:


> WOW! Awesome for you and your Tortie. Personally I wouldn't hire your Vet to touch up any plaster walls, but it will hold! Being a pet parent is the worst, they are so stoic and can't tell us where it hurts! Here is to a full recovery!



Thank you, that’s very kind. Originally they wanted to use resin, but the vet said she had A LOT of muscle, and because she was so vascular, there was a lot of blood post op so they didn’t think the resin would cut it. Fibreglass seems to be okay, no seepage.


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## TammyJ (Jul 31, 2019)

I wish her a quick and complete recovery from the surgery. And a long and good life from now on.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 31, 2019)

I may be wrong, but I'm thinking I remember reading that tortoises are born with all the follicles they're ever going to have throughout their life. So seeing that many follicles in that container doesn't scare me. It looks normal to me.


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 31, 2019)

katieandiggy said:


> So glad she is on the mend.
> I know my vet has carried out that operation before and for very similar symptoms to what you mentioned, the recovery was a long process but they got there in the end.
> Please keep us updated, I would love to hear about her recovery.



Thank you. She recovered really well from the anaesthesia, and was walking around last night inspecting the hospital quarters I’ve set up for her. I’m sure she hates me, and the antibiotic injections aren’t going to help that cause, so 
today I’m leaving her alone, and she’s mostly been sleeping at a toasty 30C. Hopefully she’ll want to eat and drink soon. 

Fingers crossed.


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## TammyJ (Jul 31, 2019)

What did the vet say causes this to happen? "Follicular stasis."


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## Lyn W (Jul 31, 2019)

Aw poor Esmeralda! I don't know anything about female torts reproductive systems but that seems a heck of a lot for a 14 inch tort to be carrying around inside her.
I hope she makes a full and speedy recovery from the operation and be back to her usual self sooner rather than later so that you can relax a bit too. 
Take care


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## Sleppo (Jul 31, 2019)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> She had the surgery yesterday, and is recovering well so far.
> 
> View attachment 277574
> 
> ...



Wow! I am glad you stuck to your guns and had the procedure. Thank you for sharing all of this information and I wish Essie a speedy recovery.


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## wellington (Jul 31, 2019)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> Thanks @wellington. I don’t think I did hold anything back? I gave all the information I was given about the blood work: low white blood cells, increased calcium and yolk formation - (see post #23)
> 
> There was nothing on the X Ray, I saw it but don’t have a copy, but the follicles were visible via ultrasound.
> 
> I didn’t know it was going on last year, the vet has just surmised this from the amount of follicles removed; she wasn’t digging or doing anything out of the ordinary last year.


I dont remember reading about an ultrasound but my point isnt that all info wasnt posted, it's that it wasnt post all in the original post. Correct me if I'm wrong. The info being in a combo of several posts will leave some not getting all the info. Specially when an alert is sent to someone that has already posted on your thread, they likely wont read any new posts, just the one they were alerted too. 
Anyway the decision has to be yours and only yours. You have to live with whichever decision you choose. I'm just so happy that everything zo far is good and hoping it continues with no complications. Btw, antibiotics can make them not want to eat. It may take her awhile to do that. More important is to keep her hydrated. Offer her favorite foods to try and entice her to eat. 
Good luck and keep us updated.


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## TammyJ (Jul 31, 2019)

TammyJ said:


> What did the vet say causes this to happen? "Follicular stasis."


Tammy really needs to know this, can anyone answer the question? What causes "follicular stasis"?
_ I would just Google it, but that does not help others also interested to learn right here in this thread._


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## Blackdog1714 (Jul 31, 2019)

http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.co...ocia-oviparous-lizards?id=&pageID=1&sk=&date=
THis article is informative and terrifying! What the Vet took out of the lizard looks exactly like what you had in that bucket!


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 31, 2019)

TammyJ said:


> What did the vet say causes this to happen? "Follicular stasis."



The vet told me there is no definitive cause, and the articles I have read seem to support this. He suggested any of these things:

Absence of males (it’s more common in isolated females)
Prolonged poor husbandry
Secondary to a viral disease
Genetics
Bad luck


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 31, 2019)

wellington said:


> I dont remember reading about an ultrasound but my point isnt that all info wasnt posted, it's that it wasnt post all in the original post. Correct me if I'm wrong. The info being in a combo of several posts will leave some not getting all the info. Specially when an alert is sent to someone that has already posted on your thread, they likely wont read any new posts, just the one they were alerted too.
> Anyway the decision has to be yours and only yours. You have to live with whichever decision you choose. I'm just so happy that everything zo far is good and hoping it continues with no complications. Btw, antibiotics can make them not want to eat. It may take her awhile to do that. More important is to keep her hydrated. Offer her favorite foods to try and entice her to eat.
> Good luck and keep us updated.



Yes, I was told the antibiotics may depress appetite, but as you said I’d like to see her drink more than anything. I’ve been told not to soak for a few weeks, which is annoying as it’s all I want to do!


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 31, 2019)

Sleppo said:


> Wow! I am glad you stuck to your guns and had the procedure. Thank you for sharing all of this information and I wish Essie a speedy recovery.



Thank you. How is the female you were concerned about doing?


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## Yourlocalpoet (Jul 31, 2019)

Lyn W said:


> Aw poor Esmeralda! I don't know anything about female torts reproductive systems but that seems a heck of a lot for a 14 inch tort to be carrying around inside her.
> I hope she makes a full and speedy recovery from the operation and be back to her usual self sooner rather than later so that you can relax a bit too.
> Take care



I know, the poor thing. She’s a little soldier. 
Thank you. This has all been quite stressful and scary. I’m just glad it’s the school holidays so I’m not at work.


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## JLMDVM (Jul 31, 2019)

Best wishes for a good recovery for your Essie. She looks like a lovely tortoise and it’s obvious how much you care for her! This has had to have been a very stressful experience for you, and I sure hope it improves soon.


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## wellington (Jul 31, 2019)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> Yes, I was told the antibiotics may depress appetite, but as you said I’d like to see her drink more than anything. I’ve been told not to soak for a few weeks, which is annoying as it’s all I want to do!


Cucumber, water melon, head lettuce are good for hydrating if you can get her to eat any of it. Not part of a good diet though but for now I would try to feed it. Also spritz all food with lots of water incase she does eat something.


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## Lyn W (Aug 8, 2019)

How is Esmeralda doing?


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## Yourlocalpoet (Aug 11, 2019)

Lyn W said:


> How is Esmeralda doing?



Hi Lyn

She seems to be doing okay. She started eating day 2 after surgery (small amounts) which increased gradually and now is eating well everyday so I’m able to get her pain meds in her no problem. 

The antibiotic injections proved tricky at first [emoji85] she’s so strong, and does not want me sticking a needle in her leg. Not that I blame her. I absolutely hate doing them but only three more to go, and they don’t seem to be affecting appetite.

She slept a lot of the day for the first few days, but now is walking around and climbing, thermoregulating, and looks pretty comfortable.

I haven’t seen her drink yet, which is bugging me as I’m not yet able to bathe her, but I’m giving her a lot of water dense food in addition to the usual grass and weeds so I’m hoping she’s hydrated enough - she’s had a few wees the past couple of days though and a small bowel movement yesterday.

She’s going to the vet Wednesday to check the fibreglass and get the okay to be bathed, back on normal substrate and outside again. 

I guess it’s early days still but she’s strong, alert, eyes are bright and tongue is pink. 

If only they could talk!


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## Lyn W (Aug 12, 2019)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> Hi Lyn
> 
> She seems to be doing okay. She started eating day 2 after surgery (small amounts) which increased gradually and now is eating well everyday so I’m able to get her pain meds in her no problem.
> 
> ...


That's really good news!
I'm so glad she seems to have recovered well from the op. 
Good luck with the appointment with the vet and I hope she can soon get back to her normal routines.


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## Yourlocalpoet (Aug 20, 2019)

Update: So Essie continues to be recovering well. She’s finished her antibiotic injections and pain meds now, and everything appears to be okay.

She has started soaks again, 5 minutes every other day, and has been outside for an hour every other day since last Wednesday. I’m putting Reptoboost in the bath water and she has drank in the bath several times. Outside she’s alert, active, grazing and drinking. 




She’s eating quite a lot everyday, and even tolerating Nutrobal dusting (before she would smell it and leave the food that was dusted).

She had a pretty big bowel movement on Friday, after her second bath, and is peeing pretty much every other day. Her pee is slightly yellow/pale green - vet says most likely due to the stress her liver has been under as a result of the follicular stasis, and drug metabolism, but vet isn’t too concerned right now. 

Because one of the proposed causes of follicular statis can be due to an underlying viral disease, they swabbed her for Herpesvirus but it came back negative.

Think that’s about all to report for now.


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## Maro2Bear (Aug 20, 2019)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> Update: So Essie continues to be recovering well. She’s finished her antibiotic injections and pain meds now, and everything appears to be okay.
> 
> She has started soaks again, 5 minutes every other day, and has been outside for an hour every other day since last Wednesday. I’m putting Reptoboost in the bath water and she has drank in the bath several times. Outside she’s alert, active, grazing and drinking.
> 
> ...



Nice sunny day in Yorkshire - good smile on your torty.


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## EllieMay (Aug 20, 2019)

Wonderful news!!! Hope all continues to go well.


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## Sleppo (Aug 21, 2019)

So glad she's recovering well, she sure is a pretty lady!


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## Yourlocalpoet (Aug 21, 2019)

Maro2Bear said:


> Nice sunny day in Yorkshire - good smile on your torty.



The slate grey Yorkshire skies will roll around soon enough. Summer is going too fast.


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## Yourlocalpoet (Aug 21, 2019)

Sleppo said:


> So glad she's recovering well, she sure is a pretty lady!



She is a little beauty. How is your female Russian @Sleppo? Any egg laying?


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## Sleppo (Aug 21, 2019)

Yourlocalpoet said:


> She is a little beauty. How is your female Russian @Sleppo? Any egg laying?




No egg laying or egg laying behavior in a few weeks. She's eating, acting normal, no weight fluctuations or anything so I am hoping it was a fluke. I am still watching her closely and keeping what happened to Esmeralda in the back of my mind. Thanks for asking!


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## Lyn W (Aug 21, 2019)

She's looking really good and certainly enjoying the sunshine.
I'm so pleased she seems to be making a full recovery.
Onward and upward Essie!!


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## Lyn W (Nov 1, 2019)

How is Esmeralda these days?


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## Yourlocalpoet (Dec 15, 2019)

Lyn W said:


> How is Esmeralda these days?



Hi Lyn

She’s doing great. Appetite has doubled (guess she has more room now) and weirdly she’s eating all kinds of stuff she would never normally touch - even tolerating hay! I have no idea whether this is purely coincidental. Wee is back to normal, after the pale green hue we experienced weeks after, which is a relief as I was concerned about liver damage.

She’s overwintering at the moment and isn’t even being mardy about it; she’s obviously just more comfortable and happier. She appears to have lots of new growth too - some lovely marbling coming through.





I need to take her back to get her blood panel done again, just to check that everything is ‘normal’, but I’m not in a huge rush. She’s been through a lot and vet visits are stressful, so going to leave her be for the time being.

My insurance also came through, amazingly. There was a worrying paragraph in my policy about ‘reproductive problems’ not being covered, so I wasn’t expecting much. Not that it mattered; money wasn’t an object as long as she was okay, but I ended up paying £40 excess on the £2000 bill. It pays (literally) to have insurance, folks!

Thanks for checking in. I hope you’re well!


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## Ora H (Jan 12, 2020)

Hi there, I apologize as I do not have any good advice for you, as I am a new female leopard tortoise owner myself. I’m interested in getting more info also and following for updates. 
I do have the thought of if this is not eggs being stuck but more just eggs not developing, what is the physical harm that could cause? On the other hand, if you do not intend to mate or breed her and this would prevent future problems with the eggs not being stuck maybe that would be a benefit of surgery? And would it be a good idea to find a male to breed them for health reasons? If so how often?


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## Blackdog1714 (Jan 12, 2020)

Ora H said:


> Hi there, I apologize as I do not have any good advice for you, as I am a new female leopard tortoise owner myself. I’m interested in getting more info also and following for updates.
> I do have the thought of if this is not eggs being stuck but more just eggs not developing, what is the physical harm that could cause? On the other hand, if you do not intend to mate or breed her and this would prevent future problems with the eggs not being stuck maybe that would be a benefit of surgery? And would it be a good idea to find a male to breed them for health reasons? If so how often?


Please read this thread from the beginning and your questions should be answered. Esmerelda is a very lucky tort- anything less than a super stubborn and loving mom could have been disastrous. Please keep her beauty shots coming she looks so lovely


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