# Scute Lubrication



## Tom (Apr 18, 2010)

I've been meaning to post this since last week, but work has been hectic. This is somewhat related to Maggies thread: http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-14007.html

I didn't want to hijack hers, so I've just started a new one here. About a week ago, I had the great pleasure of speaking with Richard Fife on the phone. He is a great human being even without all of his tortoise knowledge. He was very helpful and willing to share anything he knew. One of the things we talked about was pyramiding. He told me about something new that I had never heard before. Most people know about his experiments with hatchling tortoises in shoe boxes on damp or dry paper towels. The dry ones pyramid, the damp ones don't. Simple enough. He told me about a third, more recent experiment and with his permission I will relate it here.

He doesn't feel like he has done enough research to publish this, but there is obviously something to it. He took a third shoe box hatchling, kept it on DRY paper towels, removed it from the box twice a day, misted the shell until wet, put it back in the dry box, and......... no pyramiding. He is speculating that the water acts as a lubricant on the scute edges and allows them to grow out, instead of up. He further explained that hatchling Leopards and Sulcatas in the wild would have their shells pressed up against damp things most of the day and night too. A sulcata in a tight, damp burrow or a Leopard dug into the base of a plant or under some fallen leaf litter. He told me he thinks moisture, hydration and humidity are all important. I'm wondering if all this humidity we are all talking about, is just a way of keeping the shell "wet" and lubricating the scute edges. Maybe all we have to do is mist their shells several times a day and then we can leave the air more "dryish" to avoid the URTI's that we frequently hear about with the Leopards.

So, back to Maggies thread, I'm wondering if Vicky is misting her enclosure regularly and when the tortoise passes under the plastic plants, or goes in to the mossy hide area the shell gets wet. In other words: Is her technique is working because of the pressure, or because of the moisture on the shell? In Richard's experiment, nothing was touching the shell except water and his babies were totally smooth.

I've put moss in my hide boxes now. We'll see what it does to Daisy. More importantly, when I hatch out some babies in the next few months I will do some research into this, but that is yet another thread.

Input is welcome here. Please try to shoot it down OR build it up. No one will learn anything from NOT talking about it.


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## GBtortoises (Apr 18, 2010)

I spray all of my tortoises while indoors twice daily, young ones sometime 3 time daily. By "spray" I mean that I absolutely soak down their enclosures, interior of their moss filled hide boxes and they bodies. When they're outdoors they have humid shelters and tunnels. The tunnels are black corrugated culvert pipes have buried in the ground and they are usually dripping wet with condensation.

This is the results that I get because of the above and a good diet:

These are 18 months old Ibera that were born here:






This is an 8 year old Marginated male that was born here:





This is a 20 year old Eastern Hermann's female that I got at the age of one year old and raised here:


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## Tom (Apr 18, 2010)

Well I guess those are kind of smooth...

GB, those are beautiful! I look forward to the day when I can post pics of sulcatas and leopards that look as amazingly fantastic as that.

So, does this mean you are saying there is some validity to the moisture thing? Ha Ha.


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## terryo (Apr 18, 2010)

I think this goes back to what Terry K. has been pushing all this time. He told me to mist Pio every time he comes out until he drips. I have been doing this for 2 years and he has grown really smooth.


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## deborahbroadus (Apr 18, 2010)

There could be something to it. When Samwise was younger I kept him in a humid environment: 





When he got older, I kept him outside in a heated dog house (MD is humid) with access to water.

In the winters he stayed inside in an indoor pen with smaller water pool that he was unable to get into...so knowing that he did require humidity, even though I didn't know the WHY...I misted him once a week.

This is him now:



No pyramiding.


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## ChiKat (Apr 18, 2010)

I recently started misting Nelson's carapace when I would mist his enclosure...not sure why I started but I guess I'll keep it up!
Gorgeous torts that have been posted in this thread!


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## Tom (Apr 18, 2010)

So it works for some species. Has anyone been misting a Leopard or Sulcata?


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## Annieski (Apr 19, 2010)

This is Mortimer 7 mos. after he came from Michigan. When my son got him, the info was--- dry glass aquarium--throw in some spring mix---small dish for water for drinking only--- heat lamps. He was already pyramiding and about 4".




This is Morty today. I don't believe the pryamiding will ever go away but I think it "looks"better as Morty has grown. The biggest changes I made were Habitat [plastic tub with substrate and "cool"side hide-- larger dish for water-- soaks--5-10 mins./day-- and remoistened orchard grass with the spring mix]. As she grew, the enclosure did as well and her cool hide was a domed cat bed[sounds weird but she without fail would go in throughout the day and then finally at bed time]. No moisture or humidity-- but total absence of heat. 
I am curious to know what Mr. Fife feeds his hatchlings and how often?


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## GBtortoises (Apr 19, 2010)

No tortoise in captivity is going to have a perfectly smooth carapace. In the wild they are exposed to hardships such as harsh winds (and in some cases probably sand storms), constant contact with abrasive plants, coarse gravel and low nutrional foods. 
I can't speak for all species but I have seen photos of Eastern Hermann's that live in areas with very little water availability and they have pyramided, but smooth carapaces. I have a few long term female Eastern Hermann's and Dalmatians here from such areas. They were all wild caught and brought into captivity as fully developed adults. Below are two Dalmatian females, who are actually aren't bad. The Eastern female that I have is much more pyramided, but again, very smooth.


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## Redfoot NERD (Apr 19, 2010)

terryo said:


> I think this goes back to what Terry K. has been pushing all this time. He told me to mist Pio every time he comes out until he drips. I have been doing this for 2 years and he has grown really smooth.



Thank you TerryO - 

I FOUND IT!!! http://www.freewebs.com/turtletary/redfoottortoisecaresheet.htm

The "original" caresheet written in *2005*.. with dated pics! And "they" have been giving me grief ever since..





From the "Humidity" paragraph - 

HUMIDITY - The # 1 priority for redfoot hatchlings! These tortoises start out as eggs (brilliant observation.. huh?).. in almost muddy soil. They require high levels of humidity. As soon as these hatchlings are out of the 'nursery'.. and eating on their own.. they are "misted".. while eating as well as in their hide. This can be accomplished by "misting" with a simple "spray-bottle" throughout the entire enclosure.. daily. These little guys do require some care several times daily! My adults are most active during a summer rain! You can't get redfoot tortoises too wet! 

SPRAY THEM 'TIL THEY "DRIP".. EVERYTIME YOU SEE THEM OUT.. THIS HELPS THEM STAY SMOOTH!!! (someone actually asked)

Maybe just maybe we can get it thru to them now maybe...

Terry K


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## Seiryu (Apr 19, 2010)

I too am curious if anyone has sprayed their leopards/sulcata's from hatchlings and see what they look like.

I've never sprayed my leopard hatchling, but he's been on humid substrate, even sometimes dripping wet, with a humid hide and he's slightly pyramiding.


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## Kristina (Apr 19, 2010)

Is he still pyramiding or are you just still seeing what was there when you got him? It doesn't ever go away, so he will always have raised areas, but they will "shrink" in appearance as he grows, in other words, just become less noticeable.


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## Tom (Apr 19, 2010)

Annieski said:


> This is Mortimer 7 mos. after he came from Michigan. When my son got him, the info was--- dry glass aquarium--throw in some spring mix---small dish for water for drinking only--- heat lamps. He was already pyramiding and about 4".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



E-mail him. You'll probably get a very friendly, helpful answer within a few hours.



kyryah said:


> Is he still pyramiding or are you just still seeing what was there when you got him? It doesn't ever go away, so he will always have raised areas, but they will "shrink" in appearance as he grows, in other words, just become less noticeable.



I think you are on the right track here. I believe the pattern for shell growth (pyramiding OR not) is established in the first few weeks of life. I know if they start out pyramiding, it is very difficult to make them stop. I DON'T know if they start out smooth for the first few months, if you can move them to dry quarters and make them pyramid. I've heard several breeders say that once they get to a certain size smooth, it doesn't really matter what you do, they will stay smooth. This number is generally listed as between 4 and 6". I'm mainly referring to Leopards and Sulcatas here. Might be different for other species.


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## terracolson (Apr 19, 2010)

well i have just started misting my leo's but they get a daily 20 min soak...

i will continue the mist and see what i get over the next few months.

They are starting to show pyramiding, so i have raised the humidity and started misting...

They go outside about every day and i have there area with over grown grass, so there is that friction and I have been wetting the grass....

Tom i trust what Richard says.... I will try it since my babies are only 4-5 months old


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## Tom (Apr 19, 2010)

Terra, try putting some of that long fiber green moss in the hides and keep it wet. This way when they go in their hides, it will dampen their shells. AND they will get a little pressure too, just in case that does do anything.


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## terracolson (Apr 19, 2010)

here is what they have now... how do i add moss to it? just stick it in and make where they got to kid of dig under it?

a pic would so help!


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## Tom (Apr 19, 2010)

I'll get a pic of mine ASAP. Might be a couple of days. I don't know how well it will work in a flower pot. You could just try to pack it in there. Have you seen the humid hide box thread? Maybe switch to one of those instead.
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-12542.html?highlight=humid+hide+box


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## Madkins007 (Apr 19, 2010)

Interesting idea! Misting the tortoise directly has always been offered as a way of generally increasing humidity, but the idea that the wet shell itself is the goal is an interesting twist. I can really see how it would work on those species that would naturally get wet in their usual surroundings- wet brush, wet grass, wet soils, etc.

I can think of several ways to replicate this if you cannot do multiple mistings during the day easily-
- Timed misters, like the Habba Mist or a home-made sprayer with a garden hose timer spliced in,
- The 'car wash curtain'- put a curtain up between the hide and main area. Make it from strips of very absorbent material, like terrycloth, microfibers, or that vis-whatever stuff PackTowels or fake chamois are made of. Keep them wet by misting or adding a drip system
- Heavy planting of real or semi-absorbent plants, mosses, vines, etc. in a traveled area
- Spongy area of sphagnum moss or similar material for them to dig in- although I am not sure I would do it in the bed area just to keep the plastron from getting too wet and rotting.

It is also interesting that the trick may be to keep the OUTSIDE of the tortoise wet when so much attention is paid to keeping them 'wet' INSIDE. It does sort of suggest a different mechanism for pyramiding than old theories do. (And I do understand that humidity and hydration are both still important.)

It would be nice, though, to be able to cut down on the humidity in the tortoise room!


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## Tom (Apr 19, 2010)

Mark, I've been talking to several others, including Terry K., and it seems that some species are more resistant to shell rot than others. Our initial discussion revolved around Leopards and Sulcatas, generally not getting shell rot, and redfoots being somewhat prone to it. Daisy, my two year old sulcata, has been living in an absolute wet, humid swamp for the last 8 or 9 months. Her substrate is wet, her hide is wet and filled with wet moss, I spray her and her enclosure several times a day, I dump water in her tub everyday, I have a room humidifier going and the room stays between 50 and 60%, I soak her daily and spray her food before she eats it. Humidity at her level, in the tub, is between 86 and 90% and its at 98% in her hides. I don't know how wet Richard Fife keeps his leopards, but he told me he never has any problems with shell rot or respiratory infections.

I can speculate on why this is, but it is, in the end, only speculation.


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## Redfoot NERD (Apr 19, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> Interesting idea! Misting the tortoise directly has always been offered as a way of generally increasing humidity, but the idea that the wet shell itself is the goal is an interesting twist. I can really see how it would work on those species that would naturally get wet in their usual surroundings- wet brush, wet grass, wet soils, etc.
> 
> I can think of several ways to replicate this if you cannot do multiple mistings during the day easily-
> - Timed misters, like the Habba Mist or a home-made sprayer with a garden hose timer spliced in,
> ...



Remember Mark I told you to "mist these redfoots till they DRIP" I sent you!? How can you say now it is a new concept to you? Did you really think it was to raise the humidity in the enclosure? This concept has been out there for at least 5 years. Did you not follow the link earlier in this thread? Must not have.....

Smiley NERD


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## Madkins007 (Apr 19, 2010)

Redfoot NERD said:


> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting idea! Misting the tortoise directly has always been offered as a way of generally increasing humidity, but the idea that the wet shell itself is the goal is an interesting twist.
> ...



Sigh. Please re-read the first sentence, where I state that misting the tortoises directly is an old idea, but that the new twist is that it has a benefit other than humidity.

I cannot find a single instance on any of your sites where you mention any hint that direct misting does anything other than affect humidity. 

In fact, on your main Turtletary.com RF caresheet, (why did you pull out an old site when it still says it on your main site?) you only mention direct misting once- "Our redfoots have NEVER been soaked (no need).. have been "misted"of course until they drip often.. every day!"

Earlier in the site (in fact, 13 full screens earlier on my monitor) you say "HUMIDITY: The # 1 priority for redfoot hatchlings! 
These tortoises start out as eggs (brilliant observation.. huh?).. in almost muddy soil. 
They require high levels of humidity. As soon as these hatchlings are out of the 'nursery'.. 
and eating on their own.. they are "misted".. while eating as well as in their hide. 
This can be accomplished by "misting" with a simple "spray-bottle" 
throughout the entire enclosure.. daily. 
These little guys do require some care daily! 
My adults are most active during a summer rain! 
You can't get redfoot tortoises too wet!"

Thus, the reasonable assumption that you are saying direct misting is an offshoot of habitat misting- for humidity.

If you knew it had another purpose, it would have been nice to know that, and for the key piece of advice to have been mentioned more clearly and in the part where you are discussing habitat or daily cares instead of the part where you seem to be bragging (rightfully so) about how the hatchlings in a string of photos has turned out.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. You have a good caresheet. I just wish it was organized more clearly and I would be happy to help.


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