# A guy told me there is a special wax ....



## shelloise (Jan 5, 2013)

He said it would mAke the shell shiny and condition it . Does anyone know what it is called and where to buy some? I would love to try it as long as it isnt bad for the tortoise?


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## Team Gomberg (Jan 5, 2013)

Are you referring to vitashell? Zamric uses it.....


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## N2TORTS (Jan 5, 2013)

" TURTLE WAX " ... comes in a Green/White bottle


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## shelloise (Jan 5, 2013)

Team Gomberg said:


> Are you referring to vitashell? Zamric uses it.....



I think so, sounds familiar? I haven't seen any where I live but probably can find it online. I used something on a tort I had years ago. As long as it is ok to use, great thanks




N2TORTS said:


> " TURTLE WAX " ... comes in a Green/White bottle



Lol i can polish the tortoises AND the car at the same time


I searched for vitashell on the forums and found dif opinions. I wouldn't use it often so think it would be ok once in a while. I had used something which was probably vitashell once on dexter, and his shell was shiny and didnt look dry. It lasted ages.


Ok is TetraFauna vitashell and Tetraturtle Vitashell the same product????


Oh just found one called Turtle Shell Saver I can buy locally ..


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## theelectraco (Jan 5, 2013)

Its probably VitaShell but I thought that was actually bad for them?


I was also curios to weather there was a natural product I could apply to their shell to make it look wet/shiny and bring out the color and pattern of their shell.


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## Watsonpartyof4 (Jan 6, 2013)

theelectraco said:


> Its probably VitaShell but I thought that was actually bad for them?
> 
> 
> I was also curios to weather there was a natural product I could apply to their shell to make it look wet/shiny and bring out the color and pattern of their shell.





While putting on this stuff to make me look wet/shiny it has no value to their over all health. I would worry that it will not allow the shell to "breath" much like putting nail polish on your finger nails, it looks nice, but feels smothering. They don't have it in the wild, so I wouldn't use it. If you want a shiny shell for a photo, why not wet down and scrub his shell softly with a toothbrush?


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## karleyreed (Jan 6, 2013)

When soaking my tort I use a soft nail brush on his shell if and when needed. I also apply 100% organic Argan oil to his skin and shell maybe once every two weeks, you can get it off amazon and us humans can use it too. Specifically designed for skin and nails.


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## N2TORTS (Jan 6, 2013)

WOW ...!!!..... A Virgin in a Bottle


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## shelloise (Jan 6, 2013)

Hmm, I've heard of a genie in abottle 


I ended up getting the VitaShell, I thought I would have a hard time finding it where I live. 
Winnipeg Reptiles had it which is great because I buy cactus pads there too.
They're great, always helpful and very nice people.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 6, 2013)

Please, don't use any kind of shell coatings...Never. Ever. Period. Completely unneeded and potentially very harmful. A tortoises shell is made up of thousands of pores. The shell has to breathe; some of the "waxes" on the market can clog those pores. While I've heard nothing to horrible about VitaShell (yet) it is still unneeded and has a potential to cause underlying harm we can't see....Spray the shell with water if you want a photoshoot. Shiny the natural way.

The alpha-keratin and beta-keratin of a tortoise' shell are very absorbent...When wet, they swell and absorb the water. Something tells me it isn't good in any way to clog it up with anything other then water (or other natural substances). The argan oil Karley is using is most likely fine, and some other oils are rather harmless. But wax? Never.


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## yagyujubei (Jan 6, 2013)

I think that this "shell must breathe" is utter nonsense. I have found vitashell useful on older box turtles and tortoises where the shell has become very worn. It sure helps keep them cleaner, and keeps the mud from staining. I don't use it on the younger ones, though.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 6, 2013)

Yagyujubei:

"Shell must breath" is everything but nonsense. The keratin and bony layers of a tortoises' shell is made up of millions of microscopic pores...They MUST breath. This is why it is so dangerous when people paint even a small part of their tortoises shell. It is absorbed by the beta and alpha-keratin, and it keeps the shell from breathing...Do some research before you argue that point. There is just about everything to back it up...Mud "staining" isn't a problem. What do you think happens in the wild? They crawl through mud, rotting leaves, even feces....How clean your tortoises shell is is aesthetic; if its harmful to them (which it is not) then they would go wash off in their water bowl.


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## Watsonpartyof4 (Jan 6, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Yagyujubei:
> 
> "Shell must breath" is everything but nonsense. The keratin and bony layers of a tortoises' shell is made up of millions of microscopic pores...They MUST breath. This is why it is so dangerous when people paint even a small part of their tortoises shell. It is absorbed by the beta and alpha-keratin, and it keeps the shell from breathing...Do some research before you argue that point. There is just about everything to back it up...Mud "staining" isn't a problem. What do you think happens in the wild? They crawl through mud, rotting leaves, even feces....How clean your tortoises shell is is aesthetic; if its harmful to them (which it is not) then they would go wash off in their water bowl.



I agree 100% ... Why does it matter if your torts shell is shiny? It is not natural! They don't care how they look and their health should be more important than having a shiny shell!


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 6, 2013)

Yup...Healthy tortoise is more important then shiny shell any day. Spraing them down makes them shiny enough for any photo-shoot .


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## shelloise (Jan 6, 2013)

I spent a lot of time on the internet researching info about the pros and con of using vitashell. It seemed about 50/50 on for and against using it. I don't think using it once in a while is a health risk. People don't just use it because it makes the shell shiny, I think most use it to condition the shell. One of my torts is 12 yrs old or therabout, and I have had her about 3 minths. she has a very dry shell and I don't think it is a big deal to use vitashell on her.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 6, 2013)

Shelloise:

Its not a "conditioner". There seems the be this myth that it gives the shell "nutrients"...The shell doesn't need any more nutrients then water. It gets everything it needs from sunlight and water...By a "dry shell" what exactly do you mean? A shell can't really be dry, unless if the humidity is way to low, in which case husbandry needs to be corrected and the cause fixed, not the symptoms treated. A "dry shell" is usually what people will call shell fungus when they don't know what it is.....
Once every two months or so it may not be a health risk...But its unnecessary to begin with! There is absolutely no need for it, and it really has no benefits other then to aesthetically please the owner....
Also, whether it in itself is harmful, it can trap fungus and bacteria in the scutes...Obviously, not a good thing.
Heres another VERY bad thing...The ingredients.
Emulsifying wax....Know what that is? Its made when a petroleum-based wax (definitely bad) is treated with a detergent to cause it to make water and oil bind together into a smooth emulsion...Giving you the idea of a "shiny" shell.
Does any of this sound like something you want to smother your tortoises shell in?


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## Tom (Jan 6, 2013)

While it isn't something that I choose to use, it does no harm. I did a whole thread on this with hatchling sulcatas a couple of years ago. Used it weekly for several months. It didn't make any difference, but it did look nice.

It can be argued that it isn't needed, does no good, or that it isn't natural and they don't have it in the wild, but it cannot be argued that it's harmful in any way. Too many people have been using it for too many years to say that.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 6, 2013)

Tom said:


> While it isn't something that I choose to use, it does no harm. I did a whole thread on this with hatchling sulcatas a couple of years ago. Used it weekly for several months. It didn't make any difference, but it did look nice.
> 
> It can be argued that it isn't needed, does no good, or that it isn't natural and they don't have it in the wild, but it cannot be argued that it's harmful in any way. Too many people have been using it for too many years to say that.



How does it do no harm? A petroleum-based wax...They stopped using it on babys several years ago for the reason that it was found to be harmful...Do you think its good for our tortoises?
It can be harmful, in several ways, as I have stated....
While in YOUR setup it may have done no harm, in others it can. Say the hygiene of the enclosure was not the greatest...The lanolin in the vita-shell which has "water-proofing" effects will trap in whatever bacteria is currently on the shell. This actually may benefit the bacteria, being that most organisms that cause shell-rot are actually anaerobic...Meaning living without air. When they're trapped it, it may benefit the dangerous bacteria. (I have no proof on the benefits to the dangerous bacteria, just going off speculation).
Lanolin could also prevent the absorption of water by the shell...Which is needed.
People have been using it...And we have not yet SEEN any harm....Keyword being seen. We don't know everything that goes on...Judging by the nature of the product, I would guess it may be doing some damage that we can't see. Why not be on the safe side?
If someone REALLY wants to keep their tortoise shiny, use the argan oil that Karly showed....Should be harmless, and will make the shell shiny...Be safe. There is no point in taking risks without benefits.
My over-view is this. The wax has no benefits to the shell other then aesthetically pleasing the owner...And there are some risks associated with these products. Why chance it? It doesn't give the shell "nutrients". There are no benefits.
Something tells me that clogging up the pores of a tortoises' shell with something completely unnatural, slathering it with wax, and then baking it under heat lamps indoors may be a problem...It could possibly interfere with thermoregulation. The shells are not designed to be covered in these products, not at all.
The bottom line is: why chance it?


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## N2TORTS (Jan 6, 2013)

I Swear .. "Turtle Wax" Makes it Shine ..... or was that Windex?


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 6, 2013)

N2TORTS said:


> I Swear .. "Turtle Wax" Makes it Shine ..... or was that Windex?



About 10 years ago my dad was waxing his car with turtle wax...He made a comment about putting it on the tortoises. Its still a joke to this day 
I'm pretty sure we an all agree Windex is harmful....And turtle wax would possibly be fatal....


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## Tom (Jan 6, 2013)

Peter, name just one tortoise that you personally know of that was harmed by VitaShell. Just one. And tell us what harm was done. 

I can name lots of them that we're completely unharmed. I can see that you don't like the idea of putting anything on their shell and prefer to keep things natural, but there are people who have been using this product for years with no ill effect. Several people on this forum use it. When I did my thread it was because of all this arguing. The same argument that we are having right now. I set out to prove that it either did or did not work and that it either did or did not help them stay smoother. It didn't help grow them smoother, but it also did no harm.

Check it out:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-27085.html?highlight=VitaShell


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## shelloise (Jan 6, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Shelloise:
> 
> Its not a "conditioner". There seems the be this myth that it gives the shell "nutrients"...The shell doesn't need any more nutrients then water. It gets everything it needs from sunlight and water...By a "dry shell" what exactly do you mean? A shell can't really be dry, unless if the humidity is way to low, in which case husbandry needs to be corrected and the cause fixed, not the symptoms treated. A "dry shell" is usually what people will call shell fungus when they don't know what it is.....
> Once every two months or so it may not be a health risk...But its unnecessary to begin with! There is absolutely no need for it, and it really has no benefits other then to aesthetically please the owner....
> ...



If you read the bitashell label, it does say it is a deep conditioner.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 6, 2013)

Tom said:


> Peter, name just one tortoise that you personally know of that was harmed by VitaShell. Just one. And tell us what harm was done.
> 
> I can name lots of them that we're completely unharmed. I can see that you don't like the idea of putting anything on their shell and prefer to keep things natural, but there are people who have been using this product for years with no ill effect. Several people on this forum use it. When I did my thread it was because of all this arguing. The same argument that we are having right now. I set out to prove that it either did or did not work and that it either did or did not help them stay smoother. It didn't help grow them smoother, but it also did no harm.
> 
> ...


-Sigh-. Tom, I've pointed out to you about 5 different ways it could very possibly do harm....Just by the ingredients, its true. There is no falsity to it...Have they been harmed? As I said, maybe not that we can see....And don't pretend that how often it gets posted here on tfo has anything to do with how much it happens....How often does someone want to report a horrible disaster? Most people, no.
It did no harm (that you saw) and it had no benefit. There it is. It CAN do some very bad harm, and it still has NO benefit...Your all for only posting whats good for everyones tortoises, why are you advocating this?
Can you show me a tortoise that has has the product used weekly on it for years? Doubt it.
If you want to slather petroleum-based wax and lanolin on your tortoise, be my guest. I would prefer to tell no one to do it however, being that, (as I have stated) there is no benefit and there ARE risks. So why use it and why support it?

Shelloise:
Reading the labels and believing them is one of the most dangerous things you can do...That applies to everything. Labels lie in every way shape and form to get you to buy them without knowing what they do...Labels are useless.
Right there is all that you have gained...The shells look "maarrvvveelous". Its aesthetic. It pleases you...It does nothing for your torts, and puts them in potential danger. There is nothing in the ingredients that has ANY benefit to the tortoise, only to please you. I they're shells are dry, or dry and flakey and you feel vita-shell will help, then your husbandry is wrong. Fix the problem, don't treat the symptoms. Vita-shell will probably cover things like that up...It will have no benefit and may cause harm....

Everyone who uses it says they "feel" like it will "hydrate and condition" the shell, because its dry...None of this is based on actual facts that would prove it to help, its based off of the owner "feels" like it helps....If its dry, your doing something wrong that you need to fix. If you feel that vita-shell is going to fix a dry shell, then there is a problem to begin with and vita-shell will only cover up the symptoms....
There is NO use for this product. Its unnatural, unnecessary, and has a potential for harm. Where else can we go with this?


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## shelloise (Jan 6, 2013)

Ok so, I washed Olivia and Doris's shells and a bit of vitashell on each and they look Marrrrrrvvverlooooouuussssssss. And I do think that even though the wax isn't conditioning, the other ingredients are.


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## Tom (Jan 6, 2013)

I'm not advocating this product. I found no benefit to it except in a cosmetic sense, and so I don't recommend it to anyone.

What I am arguing is your assertion that its harmful. I say it isn't. I have seen lots and lots of examples of people who use it all the time for years on end, both here on the forum and personal acquaintances. There are people on that thread that profess to have been using it for years. With all the tortoises and turtles that I have seen this product used on over the last quarter century, if it were potentially harmful, someone somewhere would have had some problem at some time, wouldn't they? You are proffessing that it is harmful yet you, me or anyone of the 15,000+ members on this forum have ever seen one single case of it doing any harm. This product has been on the shelves for decades. If it did harm it would be known. There would be Internet discussions about it. Like the coil bulbs. Don't you think?


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## shelloise (Jan 6, 2013)

Redfootsrule:
I don't go through life believing everything I read on labels. I read them and decide what I believe and don't. My world isn't black and white, I can sum up what I think and go from there. You can't come up with a single case where the tortoises have been harmed.
BTW, because someone has a different opinion, that does not make them wrong. I think it will help their shells. If it was only the aesthetics as the sole reason I would use it, I would have passed on buying the product.
I spent and still spend a great deal of time reading the forums, asking questions, and e-mailing with members to make sure that I knew the best way to care for my torts. The condition of their shells has been that way for years probably. One of mine is around 12 yrs old, I just got her a short time ago. Because you don't agree with something does not mean it will have horrible repercussions, find something that will tell me that I'm placing my torts in grave danger and I would give it some thought. Not gonna happen


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 7, 2013)

shelloise said:


> Redfootsrule: Because you don't agree with something does not mean it will have horrible repercussions, find something that will tell me that I'm placing my torts in grave danger and I would give it some thought. Not gonna happen




If the fact that it contains a petroleum-based wax, lanolin, has the potential to trap in harmful bacteria causing shell-rot or fungus, clogs the pores and could possibly interfere with thermoregulation isn't enough then....I don't know what else to tell you.
I couldn't care less if I can "find a single case of it doing harm". I've told you all the ways it is potentially harmful. Do we SEE the harm? Not necessarily. It may very well be no "grave danger". But its still not good. Their shells are meant to absorb WATER. Not all of the other crap people want to smear on their shells....
Did I say or in any way assert that if someone has a different opinion its wrong? No. But this is MY opinion, based off of research of the effect that each of these ingredients would have a on tortoises' shell...What on earth do you think it's doing for their shells? No oil or wax has any benefit to their shell. The shells don't need nutrients your convinced your giving them...
Tell me Tom, we all know that painting their shell is bad. If paint is bad then why is wax and oil somehow acceptable? They are affectively doing the same thing. They are covering the shell in residue...
If you want to ignore advice, then why did you post this thread? Clearly, you already had your mind made up..


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## N2TORTS (Jan 7, 2013)

Umm....come on folks the "turtle wax and windex " was a joke!

If you want a shine to the shell for pics .....just use H20 other than that ....why does a tort need a shiny shell?>


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## muffinjenn (Jan 7, 2013)

I've had some vitashell for quite awhile now. I hardly use it on Koopa as I didn't see that it did anything for her. I will say though that I found out quite by accident that it does a MARVELOUS job on my own cuticles! If you get cracked or dry cuticles try it! It works great! 

~Jenn


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 7, 2013)

N2TORTS said:


> Umm....come on folks the "turtle wax and windex " was a joke!
> 
> If you want a shine to the shell for pics .....just use H20 other than that ....why does a tort need a shiny shell?>



I knew it was a joke  And precisely!
Everyone wants to feel like they're doing something special for the shell I guess...I'm going to bottle water and call it the "Miracle shell cleaner" and make a fortune !


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## Tom (Jan 7, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Tell me Tom, we all know that painting their shell is bad. If paint is bad then why is wax and oil somehow acceptable? They are affectively doing the same thing. They are covering the shell in residue...



Paint is bad because of the toxic compounds that are in it before it dries and those compounds evaporate. It's also bad because of the adhesive properties it has. When it gets on the scute margins it could potentially cause the scutes to malform. Notice, I said potentially. I believe this to be the case, but I still can't show you and example of a painted tortoise with malformed scutes. Lanolin is not a toxic compound. There are many petroleum based products that are fine. Vaseline for example. I use it around the top rim of some of my cockroach bins to keep the little buggers in. If it were toxic, it would surely kill baby insects in a closed container, wouldn't it? Everything else does. I also use vaseline as a hairball remedy for cats. Put it right down their throat. If one of my dogs eats something it wasn't supposed to, I put big globs of Vaseline down their throats (were talking handfuls here) several times until I see the offending object(s) pass. In short, "petroleum based" does not mean "toxic". It's completely petroleum based and completely non toxic.

Peter, you are just making stuff up because you want to be right. A person could argue that milk is toxic and find all sorts of justification for their argument. It does not mean that everyone is going to agree that milk is toxic. I think you gotta let this one go and agree to disagree. Nobody is pushing this stuff. Nobody is trying to convince you to use it on your tortoises. If you think its bad, that's cool. Don't use it. Just don't play chicken little and tell everyone the sky is falling when it clearly isn't.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 7, 2013)

In all the years of me keeping tortoises, I have NEVER been able to find literature that says tortoise shells have pores.

My main objection to using any topicals on a tortoise shell is that eventually dirt will cling to it and *might* cause overheating.


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## Tom (Jan 7, 2013)

emysemys said:


> In all the years of me keeping tortoises, I have NEVER been able to find literature that says tortoise shells have pores.
> 
> My main objection to using any topicals on a tortoise shell is that eventually dirt will cling to it and *might* cause overheating.



Just to explore this further: Do you feel that a caked on layer of dried mud would do the same thing? My tortoises spend a fair amount of the summertime caked with mud from their sprinkler puddles and their mud hole. In other words, how is a thin layer of dirt stuck to some shell goop, different than a quarter inch of dried mud?


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## Yvonne G (Jan 7, 2013)

I don't really know, however, my perception of an inch of dried mud is that it would be cooling. Sort of like inside the burrow. While a thin layer of some greasy substance with dirt stuck to it seems to me to be hot. Maybe its all in my mind.


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## stinax182 (Jan 7, 2013)

I would only use an oil if you notice cracking or the shell drying out. i agree that the shouldn't be thickly coated and putting a lotion on it smothers it. i also apply it to dry skin if you find any.

and i don't really see a problem with it. i believe a tortoises shell is made of the same material as hair and fingernails...if you cut it, it doesn't bleed. but it still grows along with everything else. i sort of assume (obviously just guessing) that like human skin and hair, a tortoises shell may have an oil on it that is naturally produced? i mean, even teeth have enamel. 

i personally wash them before applying it so i don't trap any gunk that was already on the shell. then i rub it in with a damp towel then dry!


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## Neal (Jan 7, 2013)

Just to throw my experience into this discussion:

I have used Vita Shell for about 8 years (I can't remember exactly when I started using it, it may have been longer than that). I've used it on box turtles (three toeds, easterns, ornates, desert), a variety of tortoises (sulcatas, leopards, indian stars, greeks, and red foots). I have always used it as instructed and regularly with hatchlings up to four inches.

In all these years of using the product and researching the product I have never experienced, or heard of, a case where a turtle or tortoise suffered some sort of ailment that was directly related to the use of Vitashell as directed. The only complaint I have come across is that it builds up on the tortoises shell and somehow constricts the shell from growing properly, or layers of vitashell were caked on the carapace of the tortoise which builds up bacteria. In all these years, I have never been able to scrape vitashell off of a tortoises shell, it either absorbs very quickly or is otherwise worn off in a matter of hours sometimes. Very quickly. So I have to conclude that these cases were a result of incorrect usage of the product.

The negative comments or cautions against this product I have seen are from people who have not used it and only assume that it is harmful. While I am not advocating its use or claiming any sort of benefit from its use, I am illustrating that the product IS not harmful when used properly. If there has been a case where it has been harmful, I have yet to see it. I am a hands on, example, type of person. I understand that others approach things differently, but until there is a case where Vitashell has proven to be harmful, I have to say by way of extensive first hand experience that it is not.




RedfootsRule said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > Can you show me a tortoise that has has the product used weekly on it for years? Doubt it.
> ...


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 7, 2013)

Tom said:


> RedfootsRule said:
> 
> 
> > Tell me Tom, we all know that painting their shell is bad. If paint is bad then why is wax and oil somehow acceptable? They are affectively doing the same thing. They are covering the shell in residue...
> ...



Tom,
They stopped using Vaseline on babys largely several years ago BECAUSE of the petroleum-based wax in it...Doesn't that tell you something?
If you want to believe I'm making stuff up, go right ahead. It has lanolin. Its a wax. It clogs the pores. It CAN constrict growth, as Neal mentioned.

If you want to try to disprove all the possible harmful ingredients in it, go right ahead. But how about this: it has no benefit. Period. And there are risks. Period. You may ignore them if you wish; I choose not to.
Risks are taken if there are benefits...risks are not taken without benefits. Vita-shell "keeps moisture in"? It might seem like that...Guess what else its doing. Keeping in all anaerobic bacteria that causes shell fungus...How often do you think someone uses vita-shell, gets a fungus or shell-rot, and associates the two? My guess, never. But if it traps moisture in, it traps everything else in.
Clearly I'm illustrating all of the potential harms to a group that has already made up their mind. Just because you don't see damage guys, doesn't mean its not there...It doesn't mean the damage is substantial either. You could use it for a decade and not SEE any harm. But again, there are NO benefits, so why chance it?
Tom, I'm not making a thing up. I couldn't care less if you believe me or not; however, I DO want everyone else reading this thread to know the dangers and the reasons not to chance the usage of it....You've already made up your mind in this matter.


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## yagyujubei (Jan 7, 2013)

That does it. I'm not leaving the house again. I might get hit by a car. Why chance it?


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## Neal (Jan 7, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> It clogs the pores. It CAN constrict growth, as Neal mentioned.



I do not believe that it can constrict growth...I only mentioned that this statement is an argument against Vitashell made by others...




RedfootsRule said:


> it has no benefit. Period. And there are risks. Period. You may ignore them if you wish; I choose not to.



Can you really say that it does not have any benefit? Please expound on this with some substantive examples related to tortoises.


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## shelloise (Jan 7, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> shelloise said:
> 
> 
> > Redfootsrule: Because you don't agree with something does not mean it will have horrible repercussions, find something that will tell me that I'm placing my torts in grave danger and I would give it some thought. Not gonna happen
> ...



Seriously, Really????????? "If I want to ignore advice, then why did you post the thread?" Let me put it more the way it was really meant. If you ignore MY ADVICE, then why did you post the thread? As I mentioned previously, I have spent a lot of time learning from the members on this forum. Like other people. you go over the advice and whatever seems to make the most sense is what they go with. I do consider all advise, no one seems to get in a knot if I decide to go with something else. When my shelloise was not well, the advise and help I had was fantastic, I have never found a forum so much this way before. And I have been on several forums for different animals etc. 
in your replies you do not state that I am wrong in so many words, but obviously if you are commententing that all the vitashell has done is make them shiny,and that is what you think, fine, my opinion differs. Everyone is entiteled to their opinion, I was not trying to have you change yours, but all you have done is try to change mine and others. 
If it is a case that you really need to have the last word, go for it, I am finding that you are stating things the same over and over and over. 





yagyujubei said:


> That does it. I'm not leaving the house again. I might get hit by a car. Why chance it?



Exactly! pretty fearful nervous way to live.


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## Tortus (Jan 7, 2013)

I use just a drop or two of 100% argan oil once every week or so. It's easily absorbed and vitamin rich. It doesn't leave a greasy feeling behind.

My tort's shell is shiny anyway with or without it since it hasn't been baked by the sun yet. I figure if it's used to strengthen hair and nails in humans without any chemical additives, it shouldn't hurt. 

A tortoise's shell is made of keratin. Human fingernails are made of keratin and women put all kinds of crap on those.


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## Watsonpartyof4 (Jan 7, 2013)

Tortus said:


> I use just a drop or two of 100% argan oil once every week or so. It's easily absorbed and vitamin rich. It doesn't leave a greasy feeling behind.
> 
> My tort's shell is shiny anyway with or without it since it hasn't been baked by the sun yet. I figure if it's used to strengthen hair and nails in humans without any chemical additives, it shouldn't hurt.
> 
> A tortoise's shell is made of keratin. Human fingernails are made of keratin and women put all kinds of crap on those.



It shouldn't hurt? But why chance it? ... Ok how about this, when people lay out in the sun they put oil on their skin, and what happens? You get hotter, you sweat and get over heated. I would worry about using anything on my Tort that could cause over heating under a lamp, let alone out in the sun! They have NO WAY of getting it off! 

I would much rather have a healthy tort with dull looking shell, than be vain and superficial and have a tort with a shiny shell who could get over heated and sick. 

Just my humble opinion .. And you know what they say ...opinions are like a$$holes ... Everybody's got one!


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## Tortus (Jan 7, 2013)

I wasn't aware that tortoise shells got sunburn. You're comparing human skin to a shell. Not the same.

I hardly think a thin layer of argan once in a while would cause it to overheat. The temp gun under the light reads the same with or without any oil. 

I do it mainly for the vitamin E since mine's not dull to begin with. It absorbs fairly quickly and doesn't leave a greasy film like suntan oil.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 7, 2013)

Watson, thats a very good example. I'm not exactly sure how well it applies to our shelled companions, but it is a good example never-the-less.

Neal,
What benefit has it, that you can say? I don't see how I can give an example that it doesn't have a benefit...Except this. Your leopards shell is gorgeous. I attribute that to proper husbandry excersiced by you, not the vita-shell. Proper humidity, proper diet. Thats why the shell is shiny...What people likely attribute to vita-shell is because of other husbandry practices, not the vita-shell.
I've never seen any benefit of it. Other then to please the vanity of the owners, there is no obvious benefit.

Yagyujubei,
That is a completely different subject. When you leave the house, you take a risk. USUALLY, there are benefits; going to the store to get that food you eat = benefit. Going to that job to pay for everything you have = benefit. Thus, taking a risk with a benefit. Thats an illustration that does not in any way apply to this topic.

Shelloise,
Your opposite advice is to "do it anyways cause I've done it for years and seen no harm". Just because you SEE no harm doesn't mean its there people...If you want to know for sure, get a scute from a tortoise thats been clogged with vita-shell for a year and a regular scute, and compare under a microscope...(Might have to search google for one of those...) Clearly, you've posted this to tell yourself your doing the right thing, not to let anyone tell you what your doing wrong...
USUALLY, the use of a debate is to change the opinion of others and sway them to the better side. Thats what I'm attempting to do. Your being narrow-minded about the whole situation and want to believe what YOU are doing is right.

Tortus,
A thin layer of argan oil is likely not harmful. However, the comparison of a womens finger-nails is irrelevant. A fingernail covers a finger-tip...A shell covers the whole body.

Please, someone show me substantial evidence that it has done any benefit to your tortoise...You will not be able to. You "feel" like it hydrates the shell; in reality, what it does and what you think it does are two completely different things. It is MADE to make the shells look shiny and please the owners aesthetically; that doesn't mean it has ANY benefit.

Heres my benefit to the contrary




Shiny enough for you? Oh, might I add, in the years this tortoise has been in my care, she has NEVER been slathered with any kind of wax or "shell conditioner". That shine comes from health and water....


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## Neal (Jan 7, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Neal,
> What benefit has it, that you can say? I don't see how I can give an example that it doesn't have a benefit...Except this. Your leopards shell is gorgeous. I attribute that to proper husbandry excersiced by you, not the vita-shell. Proper humidity, proper diet. Thats why the shell is shiny...What people likely attribute to vita-shell is because of other husbandry practices, not the vita-shell.
> I've never seen any benefit of it. Other then to please the vanity of the owners, there is no obvious benefit.
> 
> Please, someone show me substantial evidence that it has done any benefit to your tortoise...You will not be able to. You "feel" like it hydrates the shell; in reality, what it does and what you think it does are two completely different things. It is MADE to make the shells look shiny and please the owners aesthetically; that doesn't mean it has ANY benefit.



I have already listed what benefits I have seen and stated that I BELIEVE it has provided these benefits. I'll be the first to admit that my experience is debatable and subjective which is why I don't want to have that discussion. We could go back and forth until we were blue in the face. I have made no definitive statements here and I don't attribute the excellent shell condition of the leopard I posted specifically to Vitashell. It was shown to illustrate that it did not cause any damage or malformation. 

Actually, I don't think anyone has said definitively that it does provide any benefit. The argument I have here is that you have said definitively that it doesn't...which is fine...and you went on to say that there is some great risk in using the product. Again, that is fine, but in order for me to except that as any matter of fact or legitimate risk, I'm going to need a little bit more than speculation and opinion when it has done no harm to my tortoises over the years. Based on the extensive experience I have with this product, I cannot accept the argument that there is some sort of underlying health risk to my tortoises that I simply haven't or cannot observe yet, so I hope you understand my need for something more substantial if I were to accept the argument that it is harmful.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 7, 2013)

Neal,
I understand what you mean. I can see no harm it has done to your tortoise, if it has been used regularly for years, but what benefit has it? No, it does not SHOW that it caused any damage; it also doesn't show any benefit...It looks like a normal, pretty leopard tortoise. Nothing more. There is slight pyramiding, so obviously it had little to no effect to "hydrate" the shell, or "trap in" moisture. There is none I can see.
I have continually illustrated the POSSIBLE risks...I can't say I've seen it in person. But many of the ingredients pose a possible risk....And the nature of the product. Just because any harm hasn't been observed doesn't mean it isn't there.
Several members here seem to say they "feel" like it "hydrates and conditions" the shells...Look back in the post; you will see where several members tried to state it had any benefit what so-ever. And no definitive evidence has been provided for benefit...Other then they "feel" like it. And its obvious, they "feel" like it has provided benefit, because the shell looks nice and shiny...That will make a person think it did benefit. Various chemicals could be smeared only our body and make it look nice and shiny; several of these will cause harm..But "look" nice and shiny.


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## Neal (Jan 7, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Neal,
> I understand what you mean. I can see no harm it has done to your tortoise, if it has been used regularly for years, but what benefit has it? No, it does not SHOW that it caused any damage; it also doesn't show any benefit...It looks like a normal, pretty leopard tortoise. Nothing more. There is slight pyramiding, so obviously it had little to no effect to "hydrate" the shell, or "trap in" moisture. There is none I can see.
> I have continually illustrated the POSSIBLE risks...I can't say I've seen it in person. But many of the ingredients pose a possible risk....And the nature of the product. Just because any harm hasn't been observed doesn't mean it isn't there.



Yes, some pyramiding exists, but this tortoise is not grossly pyramided as you would have seen in other leopards, mind you, I am still of the mindset that some pyramiding does occur naturally in leopards...another debate for another thread.

Just because no obvious benefit has been identified (yet) does not mean that benefits do not exist when using the product. You haven't illustrated or provided examples of the possible risks, you have only stated them...which again goes back to my request for something more substantial.




RedfootsRule said:


> No, it does not SHOW that it caused any damage;



That was the point...the only point. You stated that there are potential risks by using the product, I have shown you an example where it didn't as well as provide information on my experience with the product. While not conclusive, I would consider it a little more substantial than any argument to the contrary that has been made here.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 7, 2013)

Neal,
I didn't say she was grossly pyramided. But if this vita-shell "traps in moisture" so much, then why is there still pyramiding? And no, pyramiding is not natural in any tortoise...It is caused by dry scutes exerting force on the underlying bones and causing it to grow deformed. Its not natural; but thats a debate for another time.
It showed no damage. No. What damage can a shell show, other then being cracked, flakey, etc? You can't SEE clogged pores...You can't. I can't SEE a heart-attack coming, but it still could. As I must repeat, just because we don't see something doesn't mean its not there....Do you see microscopic bacteria? Yet its there.

If we want PROOF that this somehow has ANY benefit, Tom needs to do an experiment like this...Since the theory of vita-shell is that it "traps in moisture" (or one of the theories), then why don't we raise a baby sulcata in a low RH of 40-50% and spray the shell and then apply vita-shell daily? Lets see the effect, and see if there is any benefit.
This got me thinking of ALDRABAMAN's tortoises...He has, what, 14 aldabras? Huge tortoises....Look at those shiny shells. I have extreme doubts he buys a pallet of vita-shell to slather them all with a week.
There are plenty of shiny, beautiful, HEALTHY shells that have never used vita-shell. There is your proof...Then there are a few WAXY, SHINY shells that aesthetically appeal the owner, yet have no benefit...


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## Tortus (Jan 7, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Watson, thats a very good example. I'm not exactly sure how well it applies to our shelled companions, but it is a good example never-the-less.



A very good example of what? It's common knowledge that oil can accelerate the tanning/burning process on skin. That has nothing to do with a tortoise shell. If your actual body temperature raises, that's due to the heat of the sun/burn/dehydration and you're on the verge of heat stroke. Again I've taken the temp under the light and it doesn't raise with the addition of argan, so the example of oil on human skin is not relevant.

But this conversation is about vita shell so I'll just watch the outcome.


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## Neal (Jan 7, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> As I must repeat, just because we don't see something doesn't mean its not there....Do you see microscopic bacteria? Yet its there.



Your logic doesn't make sense here. If you say this when no case of bacteria or disease has been linked to the product, how can you then say that it has no benefit as a matter of fact? 

What is wrong with proof? If someone is going to say something is bad, when others have used it without any "bad" experiences...then saying that we just haven't seen anything yet, or something bad is happening that we can't see...I want proof. I for one am not asking for proof. I just need a little something more than you saying it does not provide any benefit without any support.

Again, no one is saying that Vitashell is the only way to get a tortoises shell shiny. The argument here is that you said it doesn't provide any benefit and is harmful, I think it may provide benefits and is not harmful... show me something!!!!!


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 7, 2013)

[/quote]

Your logic doesn't make sense here. If you say this when no case of bacteria or disease has been linked to the product, how can you then say that it has no benefit as a matter of fact? 

What is wrong with proof? If someone is going to say something is bad, when others have used it without any "bad" experiences...then saying that we just haven't seen anything yet, or something bad is happening that we can't see...I want proof. 

Again, no one is saying that Vitashell is the only way to get a tortoises shell shiny. The argument here is that you said it doesn't provide any benefit and is harmful, I think it may provide benefits and is not harmful... show me something!!!!!
[/quote]

I said no case of shell-rot or fungus has been linked to the product; it does not mean the shell-rot or fungus wasn't a direct or indirect result of the usage of the product. That is exactly the point I was trying to get across.....This would mean it can cause harm. And there is no examples of any benefit...I can't understand what your point is there. The two have nothing to do with each other....
Nothings wrong with proof? Have I in any way asserted that? No. I said I would love to see any possible proof of it having any benefit; likewise, I would love to see proof of the opposite.
Neal, show me benefit! Come, show it to me. Can you? No. There is no example in your picture of vita-shell having any benefit to the tortoise (however, as I said, the look of the tortoises' shell does not necessarily display what effect there is)...It has a regular, typical leopard shell, with slight pyramiding. There is no displayed benefit of the usage of the product...I said it doesn't provide any benefits, because none of the ingredients would have any benefit to the shell; I believe it to likely be the opposite. As I've illustrated, there are many possible harms. Yet, you have in no way been able to show me any possible benefit the ingredients have...Please, show me a positive effect the wax has on the keratin. (Note: that is a positive effect to the KERATIN and the tortoises' SHELL. Not a positive effect because it pleases the owners eye.)

I have illustrated the possible risk the petroleum wax and lanolin could pose to the pores in a tortoises' scute. Please, show me some way the ingredients will actually benefit the shell, keratin, and living tissue.




Tortus said:


> RedfootsRule said:
> 
> 
> > Watson, thats a very good example. I'm not exactly sure how well it applies to our shelled companions, but it is a good example never-the-less.
> ...



I acknowledged that I'm not sure how it applies to our shelled companions...However, it MAY in this sense...The effect the oil has on humans' skin is an insulating one. This MAY or MAY NOT have the same effect on keratin; in one way I believe it would have the same exact effect of insulation, but at the same time I'm not sure. The temp of what? How did you take the internal temperature of the tortoise? The carapace temperature has little to nothing to do with it...If you have a method of taking the internal temperature of a tortoise, please share it with me.


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## Neal (Jan 7, 2013)

And there is no examples of any benefit...I can't understand what your point is there. The two have nothing to do with each other....
[/quote]

But, it has everything to do with this debate here...right? My point is that you said it does not provide any benefit...if you are going to say that, I want some support. That is my point....as I have said a few times now.



RedfootsRule said:


> Neal, show me benefit! Come, show it to me. Can you? No. There is no example in your picture of vita-shell having any benefit to the tortoise



Lol, I'll show that to you when you can show me that it causes harm. How about that buddy? You're making an argument here where there is none. I have said in the first post, I don't have anything useful for that debate...and there is no useful counter argument.


There is no example in your picture of vita-shell having any benefit to the tortoise 
[/quote]

See post 47...again. That was not the intent of showing the picture...


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 7, 2013)

Neal said:


> And there is no examples of any benefit...I can't understand what your point is there. The two have nothing to do with each other....



But, it has everything to do with this debate...right? My point is that you said it does not provide any benefit...if you are going to say that, I want some support. That is my point....as I have said a few times now.



RedfootsRule said:


> Neal, show me benefit! Come, show it to me. Can you? No. There is no example in your picture of vita-shell having any benefit to the tortoise



Lol, I'll show that to you when you can show me that it causes harm. How about that buddy? You're making an argument here where there is none. I have said in the first post, I don't have anything useful for that debate...and there is no useful counter argument.
[/quote]

How am I supposed to "show you evidence" that you want, exactly? The tortoises' shell is a normal, slightly pyramided shell. Nothing more healthy than usual about it...What am I supposed to do, Neal? The shell is the same as others, there is no displayed benefits....How am I supposed to "support" how it has no benefit, besides the fact that there is none shown? I don't understand what you expect me to do....
Well, if I can find some pictures of the scutes of two tortoises (same species, raised with same diet, same housing, except one using vita-shell and the other none) under a microscope, I may be able to show you the harm (or benefit that your determined exists)...Until that, I can only go off of speculation (based on research) of the effect the ingredients has on the keratin, living tissue, etc. There is nothing else I can do, Neal....I can tell you what harmful effect it can have on the keratin in the scutes; unfortunately, until I found these photos I'm looking for, I can't show you what you want here. I CAN illustrate to you how there may be a possible harmful effect vita-shell has on the scutes...Thats all I can do. I don't have access to the proof your looking for. However, I'm convinced you would likely deny and discredit any evidence to the contrary, since your mind is clearly made up it is beneficial because it pleases the vanity of the owner....


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## Neal (Jan 7, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> How am I supposed to "show you evidence" that you want, exactly? The tortoises' shell is a normal, slightly pyramided shell. Nothing more healthy than usual about it...What am I supposed to do, Neal? The shell is the same as others, there is no displayed benefits....How am I supposed to "support" how it has no benefit, besides the fact that there is none shown? I don't understand what you expect me to do....



One more time, you said that this product does not have any benefit.period. You're words there. I am not saying either or. I am asking for support since you are so confident in your answer. Why did you make such a statement if you can't support it with anything other than speculation?

I'm not asking for support using my picture. Your statement was made before I posted the picture.




RedfootsRule said:


> However, I'm convinced you would likely deny and discredit any evidence to the contrary, since your mind is clearly made up it is beneficial because it pleases the vanity of the owner....



Why would you make such a statement? It's about at the end of the debate when insults begin to be thrown around. If you have nothing constructive to add to your arguments about Vitashell, please direct all insults to me via PM.

It's not how your statement is intended, it's how it is received...


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 7, 2013)

Neal said:


> RedfootsRule said:
> 
> 
> > How am I supposed to "show you evidence" that you want, exactly? The tortoises' shell is a normal, slightly pyramided shell. Nothing more healthy than usual about it...What am I supposed to do, Neal? The shell is the same as others, there is no displayed benefits....How am I supposed to "support" how it has no benefit, besides the fact that there is none shown? I don't understand what you expect me to do....
> ...



Neal,
I can show it has no benefit in your picture. Your picture of a leopard tortoise is a normal tortoise....Not shiny, or appearing more healthy. Its a regular leopard tortoise, with slightly pyramided scutes.
I can support it in the fact that there has NEVER been any evidence to support ANY benefit it could have! There is not even any speculation you can present, based on research, of a positive effect the ingredients in the product could have on keratin. However, I can present numerous examples of harmful effects it could have to the porous keratin in the scutes....Clogging the pores with wax. Possibly interfering with thermo-regulation. Trapping in anaerobic bacteria that causes shell-rot and shell fungus. These are my examples. You have no leg to stand on in this sense, other then to demand I show you some sort of evidence that is has no benefit, which isn't really possible, without having what I stated before. But once again, I can show you many ways the ingredients can have a negative effect on the keratin in the scutes.
You can show me no information to the contrary; your method here is to continually argue because I can present no evidence that it has no benefit...Which, other then comparing a vita-shell tortoise to another, which can be done with google and your picture, there is no way to do.

Neal, the conclusion you draw from my statement is irrelevant. No, it is NOT about how its wrongly received by you, its how it is meant. No matter what people wish to say, using the product because you like your tortoise to be shiny would be defined as vanity (I guess a mere few use it with the wrongful assumption its beneficial, however)...I mean it in no insulting way. I used it as a word to capture the meaning...Whether you wish to believe it or not, I'm not throwing any insults. Based on past experiences in this thread, I would believe that you would deny it because its not the answer you want...


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## Neal (Jan 7, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> I can show it has no benefit in your picture.



How does this show that there is no benefit?




RedfootsRule said:


> Neal, the conclusion you draw from my statement is irrelevant. No, it is NOT about how its wrongly received by you, its how it is meant.



If it's not relevant then why did you make it? You're wrong, it is not how it is meant. I don't know what you're thinking when you wrote it. All I can do is read it.


And when did I say I like my tortoises shell shinny?


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 7, 2013)

Neal,
I'm done going round and circles on this....Clearly you can't understand it. I'm not going to continually answer your question for you to reply with another question. The picture shows no benefit.
You took the statement as a personal attack. You didn't think through what it could have meant...It was quite easy to grasp my meaning.
All of this is irrelevant to the debate. Please present some kind of now information, other then to continually demand I present evidence that it DOESN'T do benefit, instead of yourself trying to present evidence of how the ingredients of this product DO have benefits. Thats what you should be focusing on.


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## Neal (Jan 7, 2013)

If anyone could provide constructive arguments to this topic, I am open to hearing them.

As genuine as I can say, I am an open minded person and will consider all forms of evidence. I don't have my mind made up on ANYTHING. Previous debates and other discussions should illustrate that.

I just want to learn...if someone says something that is contrary to what I have experienced. I want to dig in to that. I have not ignored anything here, I have just not dismissed my own personal experience for someone else's speculations. There's a difference there.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 7, 2013)

Excuse me if I draw the incorrect conclusion, but your statement sounds like it is to say that mine was not a construction argument...

You have not in any way considered the possible harmful effects I have illustrated....You have several times demonstrated your mind is made up that its not harmful and is beneficial, yet you can create no speculation on HOW it is beneficial. You haven't tried to "dig in" to what I've said from the beginning; you've continually denied it and demanded I present evidence that it doesn't have benefit...


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## Yvonne G (Jan 7, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Please, don't use any kind of shell coatings...Never. Ever. Period. Completely unneeded and potentially *very harmful*. A tortoises shell is made up of thousands of pores. The shell has to breathe; some of the "waxes" on the market can clog those pores. While I've heard nothing to horrible about VitaShell (yet) it is still unneeded and has a potential to cause underlying harm we can't see....Spray the shell with water if you want a photoshoot. Shiny the natural way.
> 
> The alpha-keratin and beta-keratin of a tortoise' shell are very absorbent...When wet, they swell and absorb the water. Something tells me it isn't good in any way to clog it up with anything other then water (or other natural substances). The argan oil Karley is using is most likely fine, and some other oils are rather harmless. But wax? Never.



This is your very first post in this thread. This is what started all the argument.

You unequivocally state that using the product can be very harmful. *THIS* is what we'd like for you to prove. Please show us ONE tortoise that has been harmed by using the product. 

And, incidentally, if you'll look at MY post, you'll see that I'm NOT in favor of using topicals on tortoises' shells.

Also, Please show me some proof that tortoises shells have pores. I don't believe this.


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## Talka (Jan 7, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Neal,
> I'm done going round and circles on this....Clearly you can't understand it. I'm not going to continually answer your question for you to reply with another question. The picture shows no benefit.
> You took the statement as a personal attack. You didn't think through what it could have meant...It was quite easy to grasp my meaning.
> All of this is irrelevant to the debate. Until you can present some kind of new information to why it is either beneficial or harmful, other then to continually demand evidence that it DOESN'T give benefit, (which is impossible), ignoring trying to provide proof that it DOES give benefit, then my answers will now cease...



Your science is bad, and you should feel bad.
I have looked everywhere and cannot find a single reliable source that proves that vaseline and other petroleum-based products are inherently bad. I have tried to find proof that vitashell will actually hurt anything. The only thing I can find is a restriction on the amount of polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, which are possible carcinogens, but only in high doses. So unless you slather half a cup of vitashell on your tortoise every single day, there *isn't* a chance of it doing harm.

The whole "trapping bacteria" thing sounds GREAT until you take a microbiology course and realize that vitashell isn't a natural substrate for most bacteria, and that most bacteria require oxygen (not found under a coating of vitashell, by the way) to grow. So no, it won't actually cause bacteria to magically trap themselves and grow colonies.

So I ask you, kindly, to shut up until you can come up with a peer-reviewed paper stating that petroleum products are so harmful that we should all avoid them.


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## Neal (Jan 7, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Excuse me if I draw the incorrect conclusion, but your statement sounds like it is to say that mine was not a construction argument...
> 
> You have not in any way considered the possible harmful effects I have illustrated....You have several times demonstrated your mind is made up that its not harmful and is beneficial, yet you can create no speculation on HOW it is beneficial. You haven't tried to "dig in" to what I've said from the beginning; you've continually denied it and demanded I present evidence that it doesn't have benefit...



That is the correct conclusion. and I'll outright say it is not a personal attack. But I believe I have illustrated why I think your arguments have not been constructive, I'm OK if no one else agrees with me, but that is my feeling on it. 

As I stated, I have been doing this for a long time. I HAVE considered the possible harmful effects...never did I say I didn't. I did in fact say why I BELIEVED it was beneficial, which is speculation, but here you are saying that I didn't? 

Asking you to give evidence to your statement is digging in. Please someone else (besides Peter) correct me if I'm wrong.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 7, 2013)

emysemys said:


> RedfootsRule said:
> 
> 
> > Please, don't use any kind of shell coatings...Never. Ever. Period. Completely unneeded and potentially *very harmful*. A tortoises shell is made up of thousands of pores. The shell has to breathe; some of the "waxes" on the market can clog those pores. While I've heard nothing to horrible about VitaShell (yet) it is still unneeded and has a potential to cause underlying harm we can't see....Spray the shell with water if you want a photoshoot. Shiny the natural way.
> ...



Yvonne, yes I did state that this product can cause harm...CAN. This is what I've been continually arguing....I've continually told you HOW these ingredients could have a negative effect on a tortoises' scute. As I said, a tortoise might not LOOK like its harmed. If I can find two tortoises (same species, habitat, diet), one using vita-shell and one not, and a microscopic view of both scutes, I may be able to present evidence. Or may be able to prove that it has benefit. Or may be able to prove that it does no harm nor benefit. Or may be able to prove it does harm. But I don't have this. Til then, I wish people to be on the safe side, so I have illustrated how it COULD have a negative effect....There is no speculation yet presented on how the ingredients could have ANY positive effect. Please, I wish someone would make an argument of that, other then trying to just demand I present evidence (which I can't, unless I have that I stated) that it does harm, or that it doesn't have any benefit.
Do a little bit of googling...Do you know what keratin is? It has MILLIONS of microscopic pores...Fingernails and tortoise shells alike. This is pretty common knowledge; I'm not sure how you haven't seen it.
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/bath.html
Here is an article on tortoise trust where it is mentioned....Some microscopic slides can be found on google of keratin, if your really that interested. A tortoises' shell has millions of microscopic pores; this is pretty common knowledge, so its not a point that can be argued when there is clear evidence for it.

Talka,
Are you any kind of microbiologist? If you were, you would know that SO MANY bacteria are anaerobic, meaning LIVING WITHOUT AIR! If you don't know that, I'm not going to bother to teach it to you...Talka, google these words "petroleum harmful". The second link I came up with made a reference to the harmful nature of petroleum-based products, and stated exactly that it BLOCKS PORES in the human skin (yes, it will do the same thing to pores in keratin). And possible carcinogen has nothing to do with anything....The air we breath is carcinogenic. Eveyrone has cancerous cells in their body at any time. Also, I'll mention that all of these sources mention how petroleum-based products trap in whatever moisture is already there...Also, bacteria...What do you consider a reliable source? Judging by your post, I would guess it is likely only something that means your not wrong, and you probably ignored anything to the contrary... I won't ask you to "shut up" as you so-kindly asked me to do; I WILL however, tell you to please word your statements more kindly, and please do some research before trying to discredit things that are well-known...

Neal,
You demand evidence that I have continually stated cannot be provided. I can give speculation based on the possible harmful effect each ingredient has on keratin scutes....Thats all I can do....You have been unable to provide this in the opposite form. Please, attempt to do that, it would very beneficial to this discussion, and we might actually get somewhere....

http://chinaadopttalk.com/2012/02/01/avoiding-toxins-petroleum-products-in-lotions-and-make-up/
Take a look at this before we try to further deny that petroleum-based products are harmful...Where they actual put cells exposed to it under a microscope.


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## Neal (Jan 7, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> There is no speculation yet presented on how the ingredients could have ANY positive effect. Please, I wish someone would make an argument of that, other then trying to just demand I present evidence (which I can't, unless I have that I stated) that it does harm, or that it doesn't have any benefit.



I think you missed this one. Not about the ingredients. But the product itself, same thing right?:



Neal said:


> I actually do believe there are benefits of using this product. Keeping the shell moist, which translates to a decrease in pyramiding, and otherwise the shell appears to be healthy.



If you can't present evidence to support a definitive statement, then do not make it otherwise you're going to get the run around.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 7, 2013)

Neal said:


> RedfootsRule said:
> 
> 
> > There is no speculation yet presented on how the ingredients could have ANY positive effect. Please, I wish someone would make an argument of that, other then trying to just demand I present evidence (which I can't, unless I have that I stated) that it does harm, or that it doesn't have any benefit.
> ...



Neal, you have presented no evidence to how the product could be beneficial...So, in your terminology, I guess you should not have made that statement? Thats your feeling, not mine.

I think I'll have this conversation when I'm working with my brother tomorrow, who is actually a biochemist...Not just a speculating tortoise enthusiast like the rest of us . I'll let you guys know what he says...


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## Talka (Jan 7, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> A tortoises shell is made up of thousands of pores.
> 
> Yvonne, yes I did state that this product can cause harm...CAN. This is what I've been continually arguing....I've continually told you HOW these ingredients could have a negative effect on a tortoises' scute.
> 
> ...


First, you haven't shown a single reliable source saying there are pores. "Tortoise trust" doesn't count as a scientific page and must be discarded for the sake of honest discussion. It's good for information on general health but it doesn't have information on structural proteins, which is what you'd need in this case.
While I have been able to find some information on tortoise shells 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_shell
and info on Keratin relating to human hair (where porosity is due to damage)
http://www.centre-clauderer.com/en/dull-porous-hair/index.htm
I haven't been able to find a "microscope slide" showing porosity specifically. *So I'd like you to show that to me.
*
I DID find that nails are porous, but I didn't find anything about irreparable damage from petroleum products. Absolutely none. Vaseline (a petroleum product) on your nails will _never _hurt them. In fact, those products are universally RECOMMENDED for healthier nails! Every single beauty website in the world seems to advocate it. _Not the most reliable site but I was completely unable to find a single site saying otherwise._ So there goes that little argument - flimsy at best, no way to prove it that I can see.


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## Neal (Jan 7, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Neal, you have presented no evidence to how the product could be beneficial...So, in your terminology, I guess you should not have made that statement? Thats your feeling, not mine.



I AM NOT TRYING TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE HERE!!!!!!!!!! I have not made any definitive statements and therefore have no reason to provide evidence.

You asked for speculation...you did not ask for evidence. I gave you speculation. Speculation is not evidence. Why are you asking for evidence here when you have repeatedly admitted that your arguments are speculative?


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## Talka (Jan 7, 2013)

> Talka,
> Are you any kind of microbiologist? If you were, you would know that SO MANY bacteria are anaerobic, meaning LIVING WITHOUT AIR! If you don't know that, I'm not going to bother to teach it to you...Talka, google these words "petroleum harmful". The second link I came up with made a reference to the harmful nature of petroleum-based products, and stated exactly that it BLOCKS PORES in the human skin (yes, it will do the same thing to pores in keratin).



Anaerobic bacteria CANNOT MAKE IT TO A TORTOISE SHELL ALIVE BECAUSE THEY ARE ANAEROBIC. 
How simple is that? You can't get a topical infection from anaerobes. Anaerobes are almost always found IN YOUR GUT or otherwise INSIDE your body. Unless your tortoise is slathered in oil 24/7, NO anaerobes will take root and colonize. Otherwise we'd already have someone on this forum saying their tort got a bacterial infection after starting vitashell.
Oils do NOT lead to serious bacterial infections. It will either suffocate the aerobes or kill the anaerobes once it wears off, IF they can even use it as a substrate.

"Petroleum harmful" gave me a result from ehow (lol), madhippie.com (jeez, how reliable!), askville (what?) wikianswers and "healthyhomeproducts." I'm not convinced by your "google it" argument. Clearly you are scientifically deficient. 

Anyway I'm done. Putting you on ignore so my brain doesn't bleed out from the stupid.
To the rest of the forum, I apoligize for trying to reason with this person.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 7, 2013)

Neal,
Let me rephrase...Speculation based on research regarding the individual effect of each ingredient on the keratin of the scutes....Not just speculation that "I think its good, it looks good, so its good." I said speculation based on evidence or research on the individual effete of the ingredients....This has to be the 20th time I've said that.


[/quote]
First, you haven't shown a single reliable source saying there are pores. "Tortoise trust" doesn't count as a scientific page and must be discarded for the sake of honest discussion.
While I have been able to find some information on tortoise shells 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_shell
and info on Keratin relating to human hair (where porosity is due to damage)
http://www.centre-clauderer.com/en/dull-porous-hair/index.htm
I haven't been able to find a "microscope slide" showing porosity specifically. *So I'd like you to show that to me.
*
I DID find that nails are porous, but I didn't find anything about irreparable damage from petroleum products. Absolutely none. Vaseline (a petroleum product) on your nails will _never _hurt them. In fact, those products are universally RECOMMENDED for healthier nails! Every single beauty website in the world seems to advocate it. So there goes that little argument.
[/quote]

Tortoise trust is considered a reliable source by many, MANY members of this forum. Just because its not by you because in your "scientific world" it wouldn't be valid, doesn't mean it isn't here.
I have said numerous times I would LOVE to see a microscope slide to prove that it has harm to the porous scutes, or is not harmful, or is beneficial, or is neutral...But the porosity of keratin is well-known. I don't know how your unaware of this....
This is quite laughable. Tortoise-trust is not a reliable source, but beauty websites are? Beauty websites are (usually) vain women trying to find a way to make themselves look more beautiful for the rest...It rarely focuses on health. That is *absoloutely* irrelevant.

Talka, you are showing immaturity in every sense of the word. Please stop! I can't go round in circles to show what you consider a reliable source! Guess what buddy; in the scientific world, everything that is not based on solid evidence is irrelevant. And also, when conducting research, you focus on all possible results, not just the one you want to see. The people who originally claimed to have discovered cold fusion got their PhD's revoked because they tweaked everything to what they wanted....Which is what your doing. If you were a scientist, you would be much more open-minded.
It is very clear to me you are likewise "scientifically deficient" because in the scientific world, you would be considered an idiot, as would I, as would Neal. This isn't the scientific world. This is the real world of tortoise enthusiasts...


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## Talka (Jan 7, 2013)

Oh hey, ignore lists work.


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## Neal (Jan 7, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Neal,
> Let me rephrase...Speculation based on research regarding the individual effect of each ingredient on the keratin of the scutes....Not just speculation that "I think its good, it looks good, so its good." I said speculation based on evidence or research on the individual effete of the ingredients....This has to be the 20th time I've said that.



Nope, it's the first I have read (maybe I missed it before), but thanks for rephrasing.

My speculation is based on the past 8 years or so of first hand experience...not because I just think it is good...

It's clear that you and I won't get anywhere on this matter. Thanks for the debate, it has given me a future project, so all has not been in vain. I look forward to any developments on both sides of the argument.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 7, 2013)

Neal,
You have missed it before...I said that about (8?) times.
Hopefully we can find some evidence for harm, benefit, etc., eventually. If you breed leopards, you should try what I said. Assuming you follow the humid theory, then raise one in a low humidity setting and use vita-shell...See what happens.

Talka,
I ask you sincerely to take your immaturity elsewhere. It is unneeded and undesired.


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## Neal (Jan 7, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Neal,
> You have missed it before...I said that about (8?) times.
> Hopefully we can find some evidence for harm, benefit, etc., eventually. If you breed leopards, you should try what I said. Assuming you follow the humid theory, then raise one in a low humidity setting and use vita-shell...See what happens.



Okie Doke!


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 7, 2013)

Wax on, wax off Kung Fu turtles TMNT would say, that master (rat character) would ask, for what purpose do you do this, yourself or the tortoise? If you do it for the tortoise, you might want to justify your reasoning based on the animal's ecology. If you do this for yourself, this whole debate is like pixxing into the wind.

The link is to some SEM micrographs of box turtle shell, looks pretty &*$%#^(* porous to me.

http://hl107.math.msstate.edu/pdfs/rein/Material1.pdf

Will


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## Tom (Jan 7, 2013)

Neat pics Will. But it shows porosity only INSIDE the shell layers, not at the surface. The surface looks to be free of pores to me. There is clearly porosity under the dense, pore free surface layer, but each series of pics demonstrates a solid, dense, pore free outer keratinous layer.

Now we are all learning something. Thanks for the reference.


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## N2TORTS (Jan 8, 2013)

Willâ€¦..very coolâ€¦ I know what a SEM is for sure .. 
Learned how to run one at age 7. My pops is the head of the Analytical Dept. at Scrippsâ€¦..32 labs with an array of instruments , the SEM and Mass Spec.(two of my favo) â€¦definitely an enlightening world when seen with a fine eye. If I wasnâ€™t so busy with my own work currently, I would run over and get some sample pics. Of this pore debateâ€¦â€¦..( no pun intended)

JD~


PS : Maybe in the next few weeks I can run over and get some current shots.............


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## Tortus (Jan 8, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> I acknowledged that I'm not sure how it applies to our shelled companions...However, it MAY in this sense...The effect the oil has on humans' skin is an insulating one. This MAY or MAY NOT have the same effect on keratin; in one way I believe it would have the same exact effect of insulation, but at the same time I'm not sure. The temp of what? How did you take the internal temperature of the tortoise? The carapace temperature has little to nothing to do with it...If you have a method of taking the internal temperature of a tortoise, please share it with me.



Actually it doesn't make sense.

You seem to forget that tortoises are cold blooded. They don't generate heat. Explain how the internal temperature of a tortoise basking under a heat source can be higher than the external temperature, with the reading taken at the point closest to the heat source. I picked my tortoise up and the plasteron reading is lower than the shell reading. The temperature should work its way up like a gradient.

So you're saying that somehow the parts between the plasteron and carapace within this cold blooded creature can actually be warmer, and this could be due to a little oil? The oil isn't making the shell go above 95 degrees or so, but the innards could be soaring past that temp? The tortoise will suddenly forget how to move away from the heat source to thermo regulate? 

I'd like to hear how this is possible.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 8, 2013)

Tortus said:


> RedfootsRule said:
> 
> 
> > I acknowledged that I'm not sure how it applies to our shelled companions...However, it MAY in this sense...The effect the oil has on humans' skin is an insulating one. This MAY or MAY NOT have the same effect on keratin; in one way I believe it would have the same exact effect of insulation, but at the same time I'm not sure. The temp of what? How did you take the internal temperature of the tortoise? The carapace temperature has little to nothing to do with it...If you have a method of taking the internal temperature of a tortoise, please share it with me.
> ...



The oil doesn't burn people because their internal temperature is getting to high....They don't cook themselves, buddy. It burns them from the sun.
If you don't understand thermoregulation, I won't teach it to you. But, have you ever seen all the snakes squished on the road in the summer? There are hundreds here in Florida. You know why? Thermo-regulation. They got to hot, to quick, and didn't move until it was to late. This is a common danger with reptiles.


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## Tortus (Jan 8, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> The oil doesn't burn people because their internal temperature is getting to high....They don't cook themselves, buddy. It burns them from the sun.
> If you don't understand thermoregulation, I won't teach it to you. But, have you ever seen all the snakes squished on the road in the summer? There are hundreds here in Florida. You know why? Thermo-regulation. They got to hot, to quick, and didn't move until it was to late. This is a common danger with reptiles.



And that was one of the original points I disputed that you said was "very good". The poster said oil causes people to overheat. I said if they "overheat" it's from the sun/dehydration and they're on the verge of heat stroke. Now you're basically disagreeing with a post you previously said revealed a good point. Okay...

Are you saying that snakes go onto the road, cook themselves dead, and then a car runs them over? I realize reptiles go onto the road to bask. I've squished snakes accidentally as they wriggled across the road. Yes, they were alive and "kicking" before being squished. I fail to see what you're getting at with "got too hot, too quick, and didn't move until it was too late". 

I'm not sure if you're even serious at this point.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 8, 2013)

Tortus said:


> RedfootsRule said:
> 
> 
> > The oil doesn't burn people because their internal temperature is getting to high....They don't cook themselves, buddy. It burns them from the sun.
> ...



Not at all. The original post was that people sunburn when they slather themselves in oil and then burn in the sun...Not that people put some oil on their skin inside and overheat. Not to the least extent.
Yes, I'm saying exactly that. If you knew much about snakes, you would know this very well. What happens is the road in florida in the summer is a baking 120 degrees. Snakes come out to warm themselves, and they get to hot to quick to understand to move. Have you ever heard of the boiling a frog experiment? You can put a frog in water and slowly heat it to boiling temperature, and the frog will never know what happened. This is the same concept, except it happens to fast (not to slow) for the snake to notice...This is a commonly understood example. I am very serious with this post. Many, MANY of the snakes I see on the road aren't squished, they are dead. They are dead because they overheated. By the time they know they're getting to hot, its to late.


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## Tortus (Jan 8, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Not at all. The original post was that people sunburn when they slather themselves in oil and then burn in the sun...Not that people put some oil on their skin inside and overheat. Not to the least extent.



Here's watson's post from page 3:



> Ok how about this, when people lay out in the sun they put oil on their skin, and what happens? You get hotter, you sweat and get over heated. I would worry about using anything on my Tort that could cause over heating under a lamp, let alone out in the sun! They have NO WAY of getting it off!
> 
> I would much rather have a healthy tort with dull looking shell, than be vain and superficial and have a tort with a shiny shell who could get over heated and sick.



He said overheated 3 times. And if we're strictly talking about sunburn, again, that's also irrelevant since I'm fairly certain a tortoise shell doesn't get sunburn like human skin. 

If it's true that snakes do cook themselves on the road, I've never heard of it so I won't dispute it.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 8, 2013)

Tortous,
Did YOU read watsons post? It clearly says "when people lay out in the sun with oil on their skin they overheat". This is exactly what I'm talking about; the oil COULD, maybe cause the tortoises to overheat....Your confused here.
Snakes in urban areas are dieng all over the world. However, in Florida, its 99% black racers, which there are so many I about step on one every time I walk out in my yard. Hot rocks are a completely different story then asphalt.
Thats exactly what I'm doing. It MIGHT could cause the tortoise to overheat. Now, the tortoise would already have to be exposed to very high temperatures, but say these very high temperatures are about the end of its tolerance range. Then we add oil and wax...thats when something bad could happen. It COULD make them overheat; will it or not, I'm not sure.


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## Tortus (Jan 8, 2013)

You know, it "could" rain from the ground up on Planet X. This has not been observed on Planet X, but it "could" happen. 

That's about all you're really saying in this topic. But at least I learned something about snakes on the road.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 8, 2013)

Thank you, Will. At last some scientific evidence. Now please show me where keratin has pores.


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## Tom (Jan 8, 2013)

Comparing human skin and its reaction to sunshine, oiled or not, to a tortoises shell is totally irrelevant to this discussion. Its not apples to oranges, its apples to... something completely different than apples.

Snakes over heat and die on the road, and THEN get run over after they are dead? This is totally untrue and frankly ridiculous. I have personally seen dozens of snakes get run over and not a single one of them was dead BEFORE being smooshed by car tires. Statements like this one, and a few others, destroy any credibility you may have had Peter.

What say you about Will's posted box turtle photos that clearly show no external pores?


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 8, 2013)

page 2336 image "A" shows what I ascertain to to be the environment exposed side of a scute. It appears heavily eroded and damaged by the environment. Image "C" shows what I ascertain to be the bone side of the scute, and all the convulsions would seem to indicate to me varying thickness and permeability. Keratin is an extra cellular matrix of 'stuff' so is laid down as a cell produces it and exudes it. I do not find that this process will be perfect and lay down a continuos un-interrupted matrix. 

Extra cellular matrixes seem to not fit so many 'rules' that scientists follow when using SEM or TEM when seeking to understand cellular processes, so more looking will be required to see if I can find a cross section of scute. It is not a perfect matrix. I ran into this perception dogma myself when I ran a series of SEM micrographs of turtle egg vitelline membrane in chelonian eggs. It too is an extra cellular matrix laid doen in the reproductive tract while the egg is being formed (as is the whole egg for that matter), and dose not comply with traditional ideas of what a membrane is.

Another poster was linking to scientific research on the shell, and got caught up with their own academic needs, I'll dig that up for more evidence.

As for how turtles bodies can be a different temperature through out, they can shunt blood flow, accumulate heat energy, or bask and have a body temp higher than a shell surface temp. But instead of arguing with me in the fashion of "yes it is - no it is not" why don't you do your own bit of internet research and show me the paper by some Australian chelonian biologists who planted thermal recording devices inside some turtles and found that basking was NOT necessarily a thermoregulatory behavior. Then there are the leatherback marine turtles whose body temp is well above the ocean temp while they swim around, not to mention the fermentation heat of digestion found in yet some others.

Last night when I first tried to log into the TFO it was closed down, so I looked for more interesting literature on the ecology of the cool animals we like. But I do that anyway, give it a try. There is 'google scholar' which directs you to many papers about all kinds of things, PubMed which will bring up many works by Veterinarians, who actually publish, and if you get tired of those use a .pdf search engine for whole free downloadable papers and books.

Will


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 8, 2013)

Tom said:


> Comparing human skin and its reaction to sunshine, oiled or not, to a tortoises shell is totally irrelevant to this discussion. Its not apples to oranges, its apples to... something completely different than apples.
> 
> Snakes over heat and die on the road, and THEN get run over after they are dead? This is totally untrue and frankly ridiculous. I have personally seen dozens of snakes get run over and not a single one of them was dead BEFORE being smooshed by car tires. Statements like this one, and a few others, destroy any credibility you may have had Peter.
> 
> What say you about Will's posted box turtle photos that clearly show no external pores?



Ahem, I did mention that I had no idea how exactly it compares. The only way I THOUGHT it could compare is because the oil has an insulating effect...Tom, your trying to say I'm stupid for something I didn't say. I acknowledged exactly that....
Yes, Tom, that happens to snakes on the road! I've seen it time, and time, and time again. This is COMPLETELY true. My uncle goes on herping expeditions to Arizona and California about three times a year....He very, very commonly tells me how the snakes over-heat on the road and die, and a few of them they pick up die an hour later from heat exhaustion (although, most people who know much about snakes already know this....). Mind you, this is a man who has worked with snakes for about 25+ years. That, coupled with my extensive personal experience with this, leads me to the conclusion they overheat on the road. Tom, your denying it is frankly ridiculous, and destroys "any credibility you may have had". By the way Tom, just because YOU don't believe something someone said is true, or haven't seen it yourself, doesn't destroy any credibility that person may have had. I have little understand of neurology, have seen none personally, but that doesn't destroy any credibility neurologist's have. Just because someones view is contrary to yours does't "destroy their credibility". I find that to be rather rude, immature, and idiotic.

Tom, you clearly failed to look at the pictures....Notice that in the pictures shown, the keratin is only about 3 MILLIMETERS thick? So, you don't see pores (although I can see several) in the first...Hmm...Half of a microgram of keratin? I'm pretty sure that oil and wax will penetrate the first microgram, Tom. I don't even understand how you came up with that statement and thought that it made any sense...


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## Yvonne G (Jan 8, 2013)

We are starting to skate on thin ice here, folks. Keep it civil.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 8, 2013)

emysemys said:


> We are starting to skate on thin ice here, folks. Keep it civil.



I have no desire to question anyones credibility. Civil sounds very nice to me, but unfortunately that seems to be hard...
Glad to see it moved here. Not really a thread for general discussions...


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## Tortus (Jan 8, 2013)

Redfoot, do you have links to studies that show snakes can die on the road from heat exhaustion because they're unable to move? 

I'm not saying it's untrue since I don't have any experience with it. It just seems to me if it is true, reptiles cooking themselves in even hotter parts of the world like Africa and Australia would be a major problem. There should be plenty of literature on it.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 8, 2013)

Tortus,
I typed that in my google forum and came up with several sources mentioning it...Perhaps I need to clarify, here, however. It is usually smaller snakes, under 2 feet. Its not very common to find snakes bigger then that. The reason is that the smaller snakes are unable to loose the heat at a sufficient rate, so when crossing a baking black-top road, they overheat far to quickly and are unable to loose it.
There is a theory (I'm not sure of the validity of it) that roads represent a barrier to snakes. Most field-herpers will tell you, the best way to collect snakes is after a rain. The proposed reason for this as that when the blacktop road is baking hot, it represents a barrier. When it rains, the blacktop is cooled, and this barrier is removed. This is why there are so many snakes found crossing the road after rain.
Furthermore, the threat of over-heating to tortoises' (as is known already) is harsher to younger tortoises. Hatchlings should never be left in direct sunlight for this reason; they overheat far to quickly. This is a basic law of thermodynamics...The smaller something is, the faster it will warm up. So, slathering your 30" sulcata with Vita-shell represents less harm then doing it with your hatchling, in the sense of overheating.


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## Tortus (Jan 8, 2013)

I've seen wooly bear caterpillars crossing the asphalt here when it was blazing hot outside, and I've yet to see one suddenly croak from the heat. It was over 100 degrees F here many days last summer, and I didn't notice a rise in dead reptiles on the road.

I think if you can provide a link of some sort supporting this it would be helpful. I find the concept of asphalt getting so hot that a snake loses its ability to thermo regulate and move to a cooler location bizarre.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 8, 2013)

Comparing wooly caterpillars to reptiles is, as Tom would call it, "apples to oranges".

I understand how bizarre it sounds. It does; but it is very true...The googling I've done, I've found several sources MENTIONING it, but no sources detailing it. I'll have to look more tonight; I'll try to post it later....However, this doesn't have all to much to do with this debate, so we probably need to get back on track more. (No, I'm not trying to dodge the question, I'll post a link later when I find a source everyone will consider "reliable").


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## Tortus (Jan 8, 2013)

Ok redfoot. I think I'll give this topic a rest for now.

You're repeatedly making claims or stating something "could happen", without backing a single thing up with any evidence or proof. Nothing. If I took to heart that the world "could" end on December 21st 2012 as many were saying, I may have sold everything I owned and be living in a bomb shelter.

I know, apples to oranges. 

Until I see something, I'm with Tom and agree that snakes baking themselves on the road is ridiculous and yes, not much to do with this debate. If I see something to the contrary I'll be nothing but interested. And frankly, completely amazed.


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## Watsonpartyof4 (Jan 8, 2013)

Your logic doesn't make sense here. If you say this when no case of bacteria or disease has been linked to the product, how can you then say that it has no benefit as a matter of fact?

What is wrong with proof? If someone is going to say something is bad, when others have used it without any "bad" experiences...then saying that we just haven't seen anything yet, or something bad is happening that we can't see...I want proof.

Again, no one is saying that Vitashell is the only way to get a tortoises shell shiny. The argument here is that you said it doesn't provide any benefit and is harmful, I think it may provide benefits and is not harmful... show me something!!!!!
[/quote]

I said no case of shell-rot or fungus has been linked to the product; it does not mean the shell-rot or fungus wasn't a direct or indirect result of the usage of the product. That is exactly the point I was trying to get across.....This would mean it can cause harm. And there is no examples of any benefit...I can't understand what your point is there. The two have nothing to do with each other....
Nothings wrong with proof? Have I in any way asserted that? No. I said I would love to see any possible proof of it having any benefit; likewise, I would love to see proof of the opposite.
Neal, show me benefit! Come, show it to me. Can you? No. There is no example in your picture of vita-shell having any benefit to the tortoise (however, as I said, the look of the tortoises' shell does not necessarily display what effect there is)...It has a regular, typical leopard shell, with slight pyramiding. There is no displayed benefit of the usage of the product...I said it doesn't provide any benefits, because none of the ingredients would have any benefit to the shell; I believe it to likely be the opposite. As I've illustrated, there are many possible harms. Yet, you have in no way been able to show me any possible benefit the ingredients have...Please, show me a positive effect the wax has on the keratin. (Note: that is a positive effect to the KERATIN and the tortoises' SHELL. Not a positive effect because it pleases the owners eye.)

I have illustrated the possible risk the petroleum wax and lanolin could pose to the pores in a tortoises' scute. Please, show me some way the ingredients will actually benefit the shell, keratin, and living tissue.



I acknowledged that I'm not sure how it applies to our shelled companions...However, it MAY in this sense...The effect the oil has on humans' skin is an insulating one. This MAY or MAY NOT have the same effect on keratin; in one way I believe it would have the same exact effect of insulation, but at the same time I'm not sure. The temp of what? How did you take the internal temperature of the tortoise? The carapace temperature has little to nothing to do with it...If you have a method of taking the internal temperature of a tortoise, please share it with me.[/QUOTE]

Well let me give another example ...a lot of women will put oil, mayo, conditioner in their hair when they lay out in the sun and guess what happens? Your hair gets HOT! In fact very hot! That is why they do it so the heat from the son help open up the hair and let the oil sink in... 

So if you are saying that a tortoises shell is like hair on a human then I would have to argue that the oil holds in heat


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## Yvonne G (Jan 8, 2013)

If you snake folks want to debate whether or not snakes can get off the hot asphalt of the roads, please start a new thread. This is no the thread for the snake debate.


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## Neal (Jan 8, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> I really don't understand the use of this ongoing debate. None of you have yet even been able to make a starting point on ANY benefits this product has. However, I can clearly illustrate several possible harms it could cause...
> If this discussion should continue, why don't we try to understand how it COULD have a positive, helpful effect on the keratin of the scutes? I don't believe it can; please, if you believe it could, prove me wrong. THAT is the use of a debate; not sitting around disputing anything to the contrary, without any proof or even speculation of why it is untrue, or why the opposite is true.
> So, Tortus, Tom, Neal, Talka, why don't you try to find ways this product could be doing a benefit? Then we might be getting somewhere.



I for one do not want to have the debate about the product being beneficial or not at this time. I think we have established how there is no evidence for either argument. Arguing this was not why I wanted to be involved in this thread, and I do apologize to the forum that I fell into this sink hole. Please, let's throw out what was said before and table this for now.

The part of the debate that I did want involvement on is if Vitashell is harmful or not. My side of the debate is that Vitashell is not harmful. Yours is that it is potentially harmful. OK, you have illustrated that there is potential harm I'll give you that, but unfortunately there has been no information related to the probability of such harm. Probability is the key word because we can absolutely say that there is a possibility of risk in every aspect of tortoise husbandry. I, in fact, agree that there is some possibility that the product is harmful, but I do not think it is probable.

It seems to me that you have completely sacrificed probability for possibility. There are numerous first hand accounts shared on this forum (and outside as well) that provide examples of how it has not been harmful. Yet, there are NO EXAMPLES that it has in fact caused any harm to a tortoise. That is why I have formed the opinion that harm is not probable. As Tom and I have mentioned, this product has been used for a long time by a lot of people...therefore the argument that we haven't seen anything yet has no basis at all. So I can comfortably say that it WILL NOT cause harm when used as directed.

If you say it does or can...ok...show me something by way of evidence. That's where it goes from here for me. I'm not asking for evidence that it is beneficial, I am asking for evidence that it is harmful. Something by way of a picture and first hand account would go a long way here. Until something like that comes up, I have to say that your argument does not hold water.


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## Neal (Jan 8, 2013)

And, apologies to Tom. The 30 minutes expired so I can't change the above post, but I believe you concluded from your Vitashell thread that it did not show any benefit. I do consider that evidence. So my first paragraph above should be amended. I did not mean to disregard that. Still...I have no interest in going down this path right now.


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## Tom (Jan 8, 2013)

Neal said:


> And, apologies to Tom. The 30 minutes expired so I can't change the above post, but I believe you concluded from your Vitashell thread that it did not show any benefit. I do consider that evidence. So my first paragraph above should be amended. I did not mean to disregard that. Still...I have no interest in going down this path right now.



No apologies necessary. I only concluded that I saw no benefit from the product in the way I was using it, with all the related factors, during the relatively short time frame that I used it. You are using it under different circumstances and over a much longer time period. Because of the number of animals, time frame involved (8 years, vs. a few months), and number of species involved, YOUR experience holds MUCH more weight in my opinion. If you tell me it is beneficial, OR harmful, knowing you, knowing your history of cautious skepticism and careful consideration, I'd believe it either way.


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## Neal (Jan 8, 2013)

I did NOT conclude either way. 

Peter, I cannot find any rationalization for your CONTINUED arguments here or why you are skewing my comments and others to support your arguments (ie..saying that I concluded that Vitashell has no benefit). I and others have tried to share our reasons with you, but it is dismissed and returned with the same repeated, unsupported arguments over and over and over again. I do not consider speculation support, and you admit that is all you have. Then you start making disdainful and contentious comments, such as â€œclearly you canâ€™t understandâ€, "Yet you argue with me", or something to the effect that Iâ€™ve already made up my mind so I will ignore any evidence to the contrary and wonder why I would take offense to that. That shows me that your arguments are weak and you are completely oblivious to your conduct here. 

You seem like a halfway intelligent person. Based on some of your less contentious posts, I think you may be more than that actually, which is why I participated in the discussion as much as I did. But, I can no longer take you seriously. Maybe Iâ€™m wrong though. Maybe Iâ€™m the one who is being irrational in saying all this, and you are in fact a rational person and your arguments might actually make sense to others. But, I am not the first person to express frustration with you, so I hope you give some thought to what I am saying. Again, I really think you have some knowledge that could benefit the community and that I would be interested in, but until you can show respect and a little more self-awareness I cannot read another post from you.


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 8, 2013)

Neal said:


> I did NOT conclude either way.
> 
> Peter, I cannot find any rationalization for your CONTINUED arguments here or why you are skewing my comments and others to support your arguments (ie..saying that I concluded that Vitashell has no benefit). I and others have tried to share our reasons with you, but it is dismissed and returned with the same repeated, unsupported arguments over and over and over again. I do not consider speculation support, and you admit that is all you have. Then you start making disdainful and contentious comments, such as â€œclearly you canâ€™t understandâ€, "Yet you argue with me", or something to the effect that Iâ€™ve already made up my mind so I will ignore any evidence to the contrary and wonder why I would take offense to that. That shows me that your arguments are weak and you are completely oblivious to your conduct here.
> 
> You seem like a halfway intelligent person. Based on some of your less contentious posts, I think you may be more than that actually, which is why I participated in the discussion as much as I did. But, I can no longer take you seriously. Maybe Iâ€™m wrong though. Maybe Iâ€™m the one who is being irrational and you are a rational person and your arguments might actually make sense to others. But, I am not the first person to express frustration with you, so I hope you give some thought to what I am saying. Again, I really think you have some knowledge that could benefit the community and that I would be interested in, but until you can show respect and a little more self-awareness I cannot read another post from you.



Neal....Here's the only point I feel like re-iterating. You, nor others, have been able to make any claims on whether or not it has benefit....Basically, it has been concluded here, there IS no benefit. Yet I can reason many ways it could cause harm...Why take risks without benefit? This is what I wish people to understand. Yet, you and Tom seem to wish to continually dispute that there are harms...Well, if you are going to take risks, there must be benefit. Yet, both of you refuse to try to reason why there could be benefit; Tom even stated there is no benefit. Why are we still having this debate?
I'm a very rational person. You are to. "Expressed frustration" is an irrelevant term....I find it interested how I am deemed irrational when I'm not the one "questioning credibility", wanting to know someones age, etc. What is your logic there?
Neal, yes, I did say you concluded it had no benefit, because you never said it did, nor did you ever say it had harm, nor did you ever state any possible use for the product...You just said you used it and saw no harm.

You can't find rationalism for MY argument? My argument is to be on the safe side, because there are risks and no benefit. Yours' and Tom's argument is continually disputing any possible risk or threat it may pose, yet you are both unable to make sense of any worth or benefit the product has...Your continued argument is useless. Find a way to speculate HOW it could have benefit, (as I've asked you to 10 times), don't sit around insulting me, questioning my credibility, etc. because you can find no possible benefit and because you don't want to believe in the harms...


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 8, 2013)

not all literature can be accessed for free, but sometimes in the abstract you can get more than a good idea of some thought process or declared points.

Abstract
Alibardi, L. 2011. Observations on the ultrastructure and distribution of chromatophores in the skin of chelonians. â€”Acta Zoologica (Stockholm) 00:1â€“11.

The cytology and distribution of chromatophores responsible for skin pigmentation in chelonians is analyzed. Epidermal melanocytes are involved in the formation of dark spots or stripes in growing shelled and non-shelled skin. Melanocytes rest in the basal layer of the epidermis and transfer melanosomes into keratinocytes during epidermal growth. Dermal melanophores and other chromatophores instead remain in the dermis and form the gray background of the skin. When dermal melanophores condense, they give origin to the dense spots or stripes in areas where no epidermal melanocytes are present. In the latter case, the epidermis and the corneous layer are transparent and reveal the dermal distribution of melanophores and other chromatophores underneath. As a result of this basic process of distribution of pigment cells, the dark areas visible in scales can have a double origin (epidermal and dermal) or a single origin (epidermal or dermal). Xanthophores, lipophores, and a cell containing both pterinosomes and lipid droplets are sparse in the loose dermis while iridophores are rarely seen in the skin of chelonians analyzed in the present study. Xanthophores and lipophores contribute to form the pale, yellow or oranges hues present among the dark areas of the skin in turtles.

They call the shell dermis "skin".

Ultrastructural and immunohistochemical observations on the process of horny growth in chelonian shells
Lorenzo Alibardi, 
Department of Biology, University of Bologna, via Selmi 3, 40126 Bologna, Italy
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.acthis.2006.02.003, How to Cite or Link Using DOI

Summary
The process of growth of horny scutes of the carapace and plastron in chelonians is poorly understood. In order to address this problem, the shell of the terrestrial tortoise Testudo hermanni, the freshwater turtle Chrysemys picta, and the soft shelled turtle Trionix spiniferus were studied. The study was carried out using immunohistochemistry, electron microscopy and autoradiography following injection of tritiated histidine. The species used in the present study illustrate three different types of shell growth that occur in chelonians. In scutes of Testudo and Chrysemys, growth mainly occurs in the hinge regions by the production of cells that accumulate beta-keratin and incorporate tritiated histidine. Newly produced bundles of alpha- and beta-keratin incorporate most of the histidine. No keratohyalin is observed in the epidermis of any of the species studied here. In Testudo, newly generated corneocytes containing beta-keratin form a corneous layer to form the growing rings of scutes. In Chrysemys, newly generated corneocytes containing beta-keratin form the new, expanded corneous layer. In the latter species, at the end of the growing season (autumn/fall), thin corneocytes containing little beta-keratin are produced underneath the corneous layer, and gradually form a scission layer. In the following growing season (spring-summer) the shedding layer matures and determines the loss of the outer corneous layer. In this way, scutes expand their surface at any new molt. In Trionix, no distinct scutes and hinge regions are present and during the growing season, new corneocytes are mainly produced along the perimeter of the shell. Corneocytes of Trionix contain little beta-keratin and form a thick corneous layer in which cells resemble the alpha-layer of the softer epidermis of the limbs, tail and neck. Neither keratohyalin nor specific histidine incorporation was observed in these cells. Corneocytes are gradually lost from the epidermal surface. Dermal scutes are absent in Trionix, but the dermis is organized in 6â€“10 layers of plywood-patterned collagen bundles. The stratified layers gradually disappear toward the growing border of the shell. The mode of growth of horny scutes in these different species of chelonians is discussed.

Blah blah blah

So pores vs porous. A pore is a specific structure, whereas porous is a property. I do not see pores, I see porousness.

There is no such thing as an average Joe, science is not mumbo jumbo (implying metaphysical explanations in the absence of cogent reasoning and evidence.) Having no understanding is not a stand-in for understanding. You can acknowledge that you don't know something, but that (knowing you don't know something) does not replace the knowledge you don't have.

Many aquatic chelonians get shell disease, via the permeability of there shell, I have seen this in tortoises, or rather smelled it, there was no apparent problem visible with the eye. But the odor told me it was there, and that zoo vet believed me and dealt with the issue.

And all this - is all of no value in terms of conversation/debate etc. if we don't know why someone wants to apply the vita shell or whatever in the first place. What are you seeking to accomplish? If you achieve your goal, then all else does not matter.

As an aside, it will be interesting to see if the compromised scutes of those free ranging ynips cause some problem down the road.

Will


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## tyrs4u (Jan 8, 2013)

Vita Shell once a week or month depending on what outcome you want. Most just brush away things with a toothbrush and mix warm water with baby oil and go at the crevices with it..


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## Neal (Jan 8, 2013)

Will said:


> And all this - is all of no value in terms of conversation/debate etc. if we don't know why someone wants to apply the vita shell or whatever in the first place. What are you seeking to accomplish? If you achieve your goal, then all else does not matter.



For me, raising box turtles in the AZ desert was difficult. Shells and skin would dry and crack. Even in areas where there was elevated humidity inside the enclosure, I still observed it. A friend who also raised box turtles and lived in the same area suggested Vitashell. So I tried it, and was pleased. I had observed the same thing with tortoises initially (this was when humidity was still the devil). 

Sure there are other methods of obtaining the results (let's not go down that path ), and I'm sure my reasons do not make sense, but this is what I chose to do, and have no issues to report. As it stands now, this thread has given me cause to consider "why" I CONTINUE to do such a thing. Funny how routines can turn out like that. Moving forward, I intend on focusing on the "why" part.


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## Mccrackin (Jan 10, 2013)

I have currently have a greek tortoise and he has a very smooth shell without the vitashell! This shows it can be kept nice looking with out using unnatural substances. Sure it may not look like all patterns come out but who needs that? I honestly think it should not be used because like many has said it clogs the pores! And some say this topic goes 50/50 but why even take the risk?


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 10, 2013)

Mccrackin said:


> I have currently have a greek tortoise and he has a very smooth shell without the vitashell! This shows it can be kept nice looking with out using unnatural substances. Sure it may not look like all patterns come out but who needs that? I honestly think it should not be used because like many has said it clogs the pores! And some say this topic goes 50/50 but why even take the risk?



Precisely...With proper husbandry, its easy to achieve the same "results" (a.k.a shiny shell) NATURALLY....


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## JoesMum (Jan 11, 2013)

I have an unpolished Greek too. The effect achieved after decades of natural wear and tear in the garden is matt rather than gloss, but it's smooth, natural and looks gorgeous.

Joe only shines in the rain and after a soak... living in the UK achieves the 'wet look' regularly


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## Mccrackin (Jan 11, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Precisely...With proper husbandry, its easy to achieve the same "results" (a.k.a shiny shell) NATURALLY....



Thank you for agreeing, and a turtles would rather have not have a shiny shell covered in wax than being comfortable an have a shell that can breath.


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## Alles uber schildkroten (Jan 11, 2013)

Do you guys actually have stats to prove it harms the tortoise?? If so I would like to see those tests and how they were performed.. So link it.. If not its just a bunch you speculating..


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 11, 2013)

Alles uber schildkroten said:


> Do you guys actually have stats to prove it harms the tortoise?? If so I would like to see those tests and how they were performed.. So link it.. If not its just a bunch you speculating..



Association, buddy...How long did we use lead paint? Likewise, with tortoises, those things that could go wrong may not be seen, or they may not be associated to the usage of the product. I can give you a list of ways it COULD harm them. Probability? Couldn't tell you. Has it ever harmed them? Possibly, but it doesn't seem to have been seen.
However, can you tell me any way it can possibly have benefit? No. Shiny....Pleases their owners' eye. Thats it. "Locks in moisture" is basically crap. 
I've said about twelve times, I AM speculating. I've never personally seen damage; but I'll still maintain, it can hurt them, there ARE risks, and there is NO benefit. So why use the product? Waste of money and possibility of harm....


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## Alles uber schildkroten (Jan 11, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Association, buddy...How long did we use lead paint? Likewise, with tortoises, those things that could go wrong may not be seen, or they may not be associated to the usage of the product. I can give you a list of ways it COULD harm them. Probability? Couldn't tell you. Has it ever harmed them? Possibly, but it doesn't seem to have been seen.
> However, can you tell me any way it can possibly have benefit? No. Shiny....Pleases their owners' eye. Thats it. "Locks in moisture" is basically crap.
> I've said about twelve times, I AM speculating. I've never personally seen damage; but I'll still maintain, it can hurt them, there ARE risks, and there is NO benefit. So why use the product? Waste of money and possibility of harm....



I don't personally use it, I'm just saying I would like to see some proof it does harm.. Not just what you "think" it may or may not do...


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 11, 2013)

I likewise would like to see proof it actually has a benefit, other then what we "think" it can do . Neither one of these things, however, can be provided....So why don't we be on the safe side?


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## BowandWalter (Jan 11, 2013)

Walter came with a tin of Vitashell from his original owner, I touched it out of curiosity and had a raging allergic reaction. My views on it are fairly sinister because of that. I have put Ecrinal Repair Serum on his shell though, it made a noticeable difference when he was growing, all his new growth was nice and smooth, which kinda made all the crazy pyramiding look worse. He's also still beautiful and shiny under his customary mud layer almost 4 months later, it could be attributed to eating healthy organic greens instead of a hearty diet of fruit loops, or it could be that the Ecrinal did him some good, or possibly mud is a new beauty secret and we should all spend 80% of our time wallowing around whilst staring hatefully at anyone who comes near.

Without proper tests it's hard to honestly know if we should be for or against something.


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## MrJorgensen (Jan 12, 2013)

Redfoots,

Your signature includes, "I recommend you do the research and make your own decision."

Allow others to do this without criticism. No one has proof, but users and nonusers have both done their own research and are making their own decisions. I don't use the product, but others have researched and decided they will. No one has to be right. Husbandry opinions are so variable that experiences will always sway tort owners. Yes, preventative care is important. Education is important. But, personal experience will trump claims that lack proof. Both sides lack proof, so experiences will win for each owner.


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## Neal (Jan 12, 2013)

MrJorgensen said:


> Redfoots,
> 
> Your signature includes, "I recommend you do the research and make your own decision."
> 
> Allow others to do this without criticism. No one has proof, but users and nonusers have both done their own research and are making their own decisions. I don't use the product, but others have researched and decided they will. No one has to be right. Husbandry opinions are so variable that experiences will always sway tort owners. Yes, preventative care is important. Education is important. But, personal experience will trump claims that lack proof. Both sides lack proof, so experiences will win for each owner.



Hands down the most prudent and level headed post on this thread.

Thank you Mr. Jorgensen


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## jaizei (Jan 12, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> jaizei said:
> 
> 
> > This sure makes it look like you are calling lanolin a petroleum based wax:
> ...



If you wish to be understood, write in a clear, concise manner. I know what lanolin is. Those that don't would be thinking it is petroleum based after reading the above quote.


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## ra94131 (Jan 12, 2013)

To sum up this whole thread:

Proof that VitaShell works: Anecdotal
Proof that VitaShell does not work: Limited experimentation
Proof that VitaShell is harmful: None
Proof that VitaShell is not harmful: Anecdotal
Idle speculation in all directions: Rampant

I've used it, but I don't think it is really that important. I'll probably stop once Rasputin is 100% outside. I know Zamric endorses it and Walking Rock is one of the best looking adult Sulcatas I've seen and lives in the same climate/area I do.


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## Team Gomberg (Jan 12, 2013)

ra94131 said:


> To sum up this whole thread:
> 
> Proof that VitaShell works: Anecdotal
> Proof that VitaShell does not work: Limited experimentation
> ...



I have followed this thread from the start. 
What you summed up is exactly what i have noticed.

Thanks for laying it out.


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## bigred (Jan 12, 2013)

ra94131 said:


> To sum up this whole thread:
> 
> Proof that VitaShell works: Anecdotal
> Proof that VitaShell does not work: Limited experimentation
> ...



THANK YOU, Your right its not that important


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## mainey34 (Jan 12, 2013)

Wow...what a debate!..... well, I'm going to put my 2 cent's worth in. First off i would not want to be putting that argon oil on my torts. Then put them under a heat lamp..what would that do?!.....
Next..anyone who has never used vitashell really doesn't have a leg to stand on, the only thing you are going on is mearley the ingredients. Wow..is that all you got? 
I have been using vitashell on my sulcata since i got her back in april. When i got her she had some pyramiding. I started applying vitashell weekly, along with daily soaks and proper humidity and temps. Eventually after 3 months i applied 1 time a month. I noticed a big change with her pyramiding. I believe that vitashell had a hand in this. 
Now im not promoting vitashell, but i am using this product and i do not see any problems with it. Their shells are somewhat like our fingernails. Put some on your fingernails, see what happens. (OH, AND I DONT SLATHER IT ON...I PUT A LIGHT COAT ON AND WIPE EXCESS OFF WITH A CLEAN DRY CLOTH! )
As far as newbies go, they can judge which route they will go, there are so many different opinions anyway..
I dont understand why it is everyone always is quick to jump at Tom. Is it because he has more knowledge? He has done his homework? Or are you just plain jealous? My opinion, he is a pretty smart guy. I dont know him, but i read everything he posts. The things he posts makes sense..
Oh, 1 more thing. I adopted a redfoot that has pyramiding...im going to start an experiment..im going to take pictures..start using vitashell...lets see what happens...YA?!?!?!


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## ra94131 (Jan 12, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Basically, to further sum it up:
> Its recognized that its not important, recognized (more or less) that there is no benefit, yet we will continuously argue with my opinion of being on the safe side, even though this would usually be universally correct, because a large amount of the people here are part of the "Tom worshippers". Excuse me for believing there is some biased opinion here .



Your point of being on the safe side is very well taken. That leaves people to judge the product based on their own experience and that of those whose opinion they respect. For many of us there is no evidence of any danger and both the benefit/lack of benefit is unproven so we see no harm in using the product and a potential upside, however minimal.


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## Cowboy_Ken (Jan 12, 2013)

Oh, 1 more thing. I adopted a redfoot that has pyramiding...im going to start an experiment..im going to take pictures..start using vitashell...lets see what happens...YA?!?!?![/QUOTE]

For the experiment to be proper, one would need four. 
One for the shell stuff and husbandry the same as before you got it. 
One for the shell stuff and better husbandry.
One with no shell stuff and the same husbandry. 
One with no shell stuff and better husbandry. 
I us nothing on the shells other than water. If I had a hankering to use something, it would be on the line of fresh aloe gel.


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## Jacqui (Jan 16, 2013)

Okay Yvonne had cleaned up this thread, deleting 25 posts she rules as unallowable. I am putting this thread back into debate, but please remember to debate the topic not each other. Let's not force us to do more of the evil delete, as we Mods hate to have to do them.


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## yagyujubei (Jan 16, 2013)

Well, I learned my lesson. I will no longer post in the debate section.


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## BowandWalter (Jan 16, 2013)

Huh, I'd wondered why it had disappeared!


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## Madkins007 (Jan 18, 2013)

yagyujubei said:


> Well, I learned my lesson. I will no longer post in the debate section.



Dennis- this cannot be new or surprising to you. Debate is allowed, encouraged, and fun... as long it stays civil. Heck- the mods here allow a LOT of garbage to go on that I would not if I ran the site.


I am SO happy to learn that some posts were deleted! I was seriously troubled at some of the stuff I was reading here.

1. It took over 100 posts for someone to challenge the comment "...it contains a petroleum-based wax, lanolin, has..." Lanolin comes from sheep's wool, for crying out loud. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanolin)

2. I have yet to see anyone challenge the comment "They stopped using Vaseline on babys (sic) largely several years ago BECAUSE of the petroleum-based wax in it...Doesn't that tell you something?" And yet- 100% Vaseline Jelly for babies is sold in pretty much every store in the US and there does not seem to be much of an on-line outcry against it. (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001ECQ4TO/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20 )

3. It took too many pages for anyone to finally point out that being porous is different than having biologically active pores, like sweat glands. There IS NO CLINICAL OR SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE THAT TORTOISE SHELLS BREATHE OR CAN ABSORB NUTRIENTS OF ANY KIND. Moisturizing the shell does not hydrate the tortoise, and you cannot 'deep condition' dead tissue- whether it is hair or keratin. Remember- one of the most basic definitions of a reptile is that it has WATERPROOF skin. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptile, section 3.4 'Skin')

4. Compare the ingredients of Vitashell to any plain white cheap hand lotion- they are basically the same thing. Tell me how the heck something that humans- with our truly porous skin- slather all over ourselves and our babies is supposed to harm a shell that is basically fingernails, especially when I bet 80% of it rubs off in less than 4 hours?

5. It is one thing to claim an opinion ("I believe that Vitashell may be harmful/beneficial because..."), but if you are going to make a statement of fact ("Vitashell IS harmful/beneficial because...") then you need to prove it. And an article posted at an otherwise good site but one that does not offer citations or references simply does not count.



So, to answer the OP (who I bet stopped reading this a LONG time ago)- the stuff is called Vitashell, and it is basically hand lotion with the same basic benefits and risks. Some people really like it, some really hate it, but most of us just don't really bother with it too much. If you want to try it, save yourself some money and try either a very thin layer of olive oil or any plain, white hand lotion.


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## Edna (Jan 19, 2013)

Peter,
When I reread your "wax, lanolin, and..." statement I did understand that you were including lanolin as a substance in a list of ingredients. On my first quick read, no such luck. 
Research doesn't result in "proof." It results in evidence supporting or not supporting a hypothesis. It is not generally a bad thing to ask for evidence, and anyone making a claim should be prepared to provide it.


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## Hustler (Jan 19, 2013)

Wow.....I just fell on this tread...... Thanks Madskins for that last post..... saved me 9 pages to read.
Ive seen a few people using olive oil with good result years later but the fact they put that much thought into the tortoises shell makes it impossible to say that was "proof" as they took better care of the tortoise than most people seem to and the shells would have stayed smooth anyways.


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## mainey34 (Jan 20, 2013)

Cowboyken, unfortunately i don't have that many torts to do a "scientific" experiment. I started "lathering" my Redfoot yesterday with vitashell. I took pics of before. And i will be keeping notes and pics and am following specific directions per vitashell ..


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## Jacqui (Jan 20, 2013)

(From mod Yvonne: Any posts that are not on topic will be deleted, and that includes posts making explanations of other posts. If you have more to say OT, then take it to the PM. Your stance on lanolin was explained by Edna and needed no more explanation)

I can only say it was not me, so I can't give you the reason. However (and this is for anybody) if you have or see a thread which you thinks needs for a Mod to look at, by all means either report the thread or send the Mods a note. Believe it or not, we don't have time to constantly be checking all threads. We need help and feedback from the general membership when a problem starts happening.


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## Zamric (Jan 21, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> If the fact that it contains a petroleum-based wax, lanolin, has the potential to trap in harmful bacteria causing shell-rot or fungus, clogs the pores and could possibly interfere with thermoregulation isn't enough then....I don't know what else to tell you.



Sorry I missed this thread till now!
I am a BIG advocate of Vita-Shell and I have tried to read this thread all the way through so I don't sound dumb by repeating facts already brought forth.

This one I canot ignore! 

Redfootsrule,

If your entire point of Vita-shell being bad because it has a Petroleum based wax called "Lanolin" then you can rest easy, Lanolin is derived from wool, not petroleum.

I will continue reading from this point, so if this fact was already brought up... I'll probably do it again before I finish the next 5 pages!


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## Yvonne G (Jan 21, 2013)

Redfootsrule was only listing ingredients. Lanolin was not supposed to be in the petroleum category.


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## Zamric (Jan 21, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Tom said:
> 
> 
> > Can you show me a tortoise that has has the product used weekly on it for years? Doubt it.
> ...


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## RedfootsRule (Jan 21, 2013)

Zamric,
Lanolin is definitely derived from wool....Petroleum-based wax is the Emulsifying Wax NF (which is in the ingredients, if you've ever bothered to read them...) And no, that is not at all my only point. 
But I'm sure this post will be deleted, as its explaining another one of my posts, and apparently there is a rule for that, even though it has not been posted in the forum guidelines, nor was it in the agreement we all put the check next to when we make an account.
I don't understand how so many people thought that they could use against me what they themselves could not understand...I suggest re-enrollment in high-school level grammar, as this is just getting old.
You may think what you posted of WalkingRock is evidence...But due to your posts, its obvious you are a major supporter of the product. You have no documented evidence that it WAS used as often as you describe. Your husbandry tactics would have to be picked apart, to examine and see if there was another reason. Just like Tom's "experiment", which I attribute to the humidity, as this has been shown to stop pyramiding. So, its invalid. 
Am I accusing you of being a liar? Certainly not. But that is not evidence. It's an anecdote, and I find it highly unlikely that you JUST NOW decided to post all of this, as if you didn't see this thread before. Just about anyone could post a picture of a large sulcata and say "I've been slathering them daily since birth!"
But I digress,
If you wish to slather and smother your tortoise with a totally unnatural wax, while being completely oblivious and ignorant of any possible side-effect it may have (regardless of the likelihood of those side-effects occurring), with no possible benefit occurring, taking risk without reason, then go right ahead. I've been posting through this entire thread to try to make sure people cared for their tortoises properly; I did this on the premise that people actually cared what was best for their tortoise, not what was best to please them. Sadly, I appear to be mistaken. Risk should not be taken without benefit, absolutely regardless of the likelihood of those risks occurring. But surprisingly, that stance can be argued left, right, up, down, and wherever else we can lead it that ends up in an insult-hurling slap-fight. I was not aware the "be on the safe side" stance could be argued; I'm truly mistaken. The only reason I can think of for arguing....Is for the sake of arguing. We all love that, don't we now?
My opinion in a nut-shell. Take it, or leave it; do whats best for your tortoise, or slather them and do whats best for you. In the end, YOU are the care-taker. This is your decision. The point of MY posts was to try to lead owners to the right decision, or at least make them aware of the risk. If the risk is not a considerate for you, if you rather do whats best for YOU....Then perhaps you need to re-think your ability to care for an animal.

This will be my last post...Insult me, discredit me, slander and berate me. Delete it, if you wish, regardless of the fact it violates no rules. It is my opinion.


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## Zamric (Jan 21, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Neal,
> You have missed it before...I said that about (8?) times.
> Hopefully we can find some evidence for harm, benefit, etc., eventually. If you breed leopards, you should try what I said. Assuming you follow the humid theory, then raise one in a low humidity setting and use vita-shell...See what happens.



I am a big fan of Vita_shell just for this reason! Walkingrock (did I mention him yet?) was NOT raised in a "High Heat, High humidity" enviroment... he was raise by children in a classrom. Vita-Shell was the only treatment he had for his shell and till he got to big to cover his whole shell (not cost effective) he got a weekly treatment of Vita-shell! You might notice, he has very little pyramiding for a tortoise the weighs a little over 110 lbs.
I am Currently raising 2 Leopards under the "High Heat, High Humidity" system and they also get Vita-shell weekly. They are a year old and show 0% signs of pyamiding.




RedfootsRule said:


> I likewise would like to see proof it actually has a benefit, other then what we "think" it can do . Neither one of these things, however, can be provided....So why don't we be on the safe side?



Benefits? It helps keep the scute "cuticles" conditiond, just like human nails.when there is not enough humidity in the air they dry out. Vita-shell conditions the cuticle and the scute grows true.

Is that a "Real" benefit? I would say "YES"! is it done for purely "Cosmetic" reasons? "HELL YES"! I want my tortoises as smooth as possable.... it just looks good!

...OK, Page 7, 2 more pages to go and I'll be current!


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## ra94131 (Jan 21, 2013)

I think in a thread that contains very little, Zamric has provided the closest thing to "proof" yet. Obviously it is primarily anecdotal and an isolated example, but it is far above any other evidence provided. (I know Tom had similarly limited proof showing that it caused no harm, but had no noticeable benefit during a short trial.) As I stated earlier, Walking Rock is the only tortoise to have been raised to adulthood with a regular regimen of VitaShell and he is demonstrably very healthy.

(Throw in the fact that I believe he is mere miles from me, therefore in a very similar environment, and that is a definite mark in the "Pros" column for VitaShell.)


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## Zamric (Jan 21, 2013)

RedfootsRule said:


> Zamric,
> Lanolin is definitely derived from wool....Petroleum-based wax is the Emulsifying Wax NF (which is in the ingredients, if you've ever bothered to read them...) And no, that is not at all my only point.
> But I'm sure this post will be deleted, as its explaining another one of my posts, and apparently there is a rule for that, even though it has not been posted in the forum guidelines, nor was it in the agreement we all put the check next to when we make an account.
> I don't understand how so many people thought that they could use against me what they themselves could not understand...I suggest re-enrollment in high-school level grammar, as this is just getting old.
> ...



WOW! REALLY? Documentatation? I am not a scientist! My wife is a Pre_school Teacher (the one who raised Walkingrock in her classroom). Why would we document the raising of a pet? (I have however documented my 2 leopards). I am not a Breeder! I don't have the numbers or the time to carry out such experiment. Tom did, but he only did it on hatchlings and he only did it for 8 months. and he did document it. Walkingrock (if you chose to belive it or not) is the best example of the proof you wanted about the long tem benefits of Vita-shell. 

am I convinced that its a good product? BET THAT! but then again, I have witnessed 1st hand the benefits of longterm usage.

and for your information, I did just see this thread! I wouldn't miss out on a good debate about Vita-shell! Ask anyone here.... On this subject I am HIGHLY outspoken!



We are not looking to dis-credit you, slander you or berate you. you make bold statements of speculation and present them as fact. This crowd is just a little bit brighter than that and require ANYTHING presented as "fact" be provable. You side stepped that by taking the "Be on the safe side" stand.

You don't need to be "On the safe side" with Vita-shell. it will not harm or disfigure your tortoise and till you PROVE that it has happened AT LEAST ONCE, I'm sure that is the stand that most here will take.... May or May not be helpful, but it is not Harmful (which is what you are implying)


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## Neal (Jan 21, 2013)

ra94131 said:


> As I stated earlier, Walking Rock is the only tortoise to have been raised to adulthood with a regular regimen of VitaShell and he is demonstrably very healthy.



Post #36 contains another one. 




Zamric said:


> You don't need to be "On the safe side" with Vita-shell. it will not harm or disfigure your tortoise and till you PROVE that it has happened AT LEAST ONCE, I'm sure that is the stand that most here will take.... May or May not be helpful, but it is not Harmful (which is what you are implying)



Thanks for posting Zamaric. As I've stated, I agree with you that it is not harmful...whether or not it does or does not do any good is all speculation. But I think our examples are evidence that the product does not do any harm. Probably not enough to convince a scientific community, but it's still something actually tangible that shouldn't be disregarded in this debate.


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## Zamric (Jan 21, 2013)

Neal said:


> ra94131 said:
> 
> 
> > As I stated earlier, Walking Rock is the only tortoise to have been raised to adulthood with a regular regimen of VitaShell and he is demonstrably very healthy.
> ...





It should not! I will admit that I am only a Keeper but the overall results of 100% (2 adults of differant species raised with a regulare regement of Vita-shell succefully-VS- those raised un-succefully) must prove somthing!

BTW, sorry it took so long to chime in.... I've been going crazy in the real world!


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## Baoh (Jan 21, 2013)

There is a Nobel Prize waiting for the person who can show a conversion from Kingdom to Kingdom as has been explicitly purported in this thread. This will probably be deleted. lol


I like WalkingRock's result, by the way. Very good looking tortoise.


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## theelectraco (Jan 21, 2013)

What is that silver thing on his shell?


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## Jacqui (Jan 21, 2013)

theelectraco said:


> What is that silver thing on his shell?



An ID tag.


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## theelectraco (Jan 21, 2013)

How are those attached? Never seeb one before.


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## Zamric (Jan 22, 2013)

It is indeed a dogtag and it is attached with a 2 part, Heavyduty Epoxy. WalkingRock has been known in the past to walk the neiborhood on his own... twice now he has escaped the back yard.


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## theelectraco (Jan 22, 2013)

I can only imagine the looks on peoples faces as they see him walking across their yard.xD


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## mctlong (Jan 22, 2013)

Zamric said:


> It should not! I will admit that I am only a Keeper but the overall results of 100% (2 adults of differant species raised with a regulare regement of Vita-shell succefully-VS- those raised un-succefully) must prove somthing!
> 
> BTW, sorry it took so long to chime in.... I've been going crazy in the real world!



This is a good start. We've already seen (from experiments presented on this forum) that keeping a tortoise in high humidity reduces pyramiding. It seems reasonable to take that a step further and hypothesize that keeping a tortoise's shell well-hydrated using products like vita-shell may also reduce pyramiding. I'd like to see a full scale study, using hundreds of animals, but thats never going to happen. 

Reading some of these threads (sorry, I didn't read the whole ten pages), I'm not seeing any research studies indicating that Vita-Shell is harmful or even any anecdotal evidence showing a single animal that has been harmed using this product. Saying its bad just because its unnatural doesn't really cut it. Keeping tortoises in captivity is unnatural, but we still do it and they grow up strong and healthy. Unnatural doesn't always equal bad.


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## Zamric (Jan 22, 2013)

theelectraco said:


> I can only imagine the looks on peoples faces as they see him walking across their yard.xD



 hehehe.... the funniest time was when my 80+ year old neibor tried to "shush" him back in the yard like he was a cat! He just looked back at me like he was saying..."Is she serious?"


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## Thalatte (Jan 22, 2013)

I have no issue really wih vita shell and in fact am going to start using it regularly on my wood turtle as she has always been flaky shelled. 
I would like to point out the obvious though: vita shell alone will not prevent pyramiding. Bane my newest Sonoran was raised using vita shell regularly and in horrible conditions and on a pellet only diet. His shell isn't flaky or dry at all and was very shiny. However he has rather bad pyramiding and was a very unhealthy black. 
I guess the point of this is dont use the vita shell in the expectation that you can keep them in dry climates sense you are offering another form of hydration.


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