# Please help, Indian star leg swollen



## Lesa (May 9, 2018)

A few weeks ago I noticed my star was walking funny. Like her legs were weaker and maybe having trouble with her coordination. The back two legs appeared to be pushing off the ground fine. On the front legs both working but not lifting her up as high as normal. More of a side to side motion if that makes sense. All four limbs are working and if you softly pull on them you do get resistance but to me just seemed weaker and a little unsteady.

The only thing that had happened was I woke up one morning and she was asleep on top of her food. It was a mix of mazuri and rep-cal that I had forgotten to take away before I fell asleep. She was stuck to it. I guess the water plus heat and humidity had turned it into a paste. I have no idea how long she might have been stuck in her food. I gave her a good long soak and she seemed fine. A couple of days later is when I noticed the funny walking. I thought maybe she had pulled a muscle trying to get out of the food.

I took her to the second vet listed in my town as an exotic vet who treats tortoises. The number one vet killed my little leopard by giving him 4 vitamin injections when I took him in for a check up. That woman was a nightmare. See previous posts on that heartbreak. Anyway this guy was even worse than the first. He seemed to have zero clue about tortoises. He pulled on her legs and said they seemed fine. He did say nothing appeared broken. He wanted to given her steroid injections "just in case". I said no I was afraid of injections after the last time. He said well apparently the internet and I knew more than him. He left it with just give her time and make things a little easier so she could heal if she had pulled a muscle.

So that's what I did. I put her in the small enclosure I used when she was a hatching. She is a little over a year old now. I used different textures like the back side of tiles to give her things to grip when walking. Giving her nice long soaks which she loves. She is eating and pooping normal. Just still a little unsteady. Now that warm weather is here I have been getting her outside everyday. Lots of good textured to walk around on and she does appear to be getting stronger. She might be slow but she is getting around really well.

So what's the problem? Today I was watching her very closely and her front left leg was shaking as she tried to climb out of a clay saucer with water. She was really struggling so I picked her up and was looking at her legs. I saw a ball on the back of her back right leg. See photo. That knee joint also looks swollen. This is new. I have kept a very careful eye on her. She can pull that leg back in.

Does anyone know what this is? Has she had too much exercise? Did she strain this knee? Should I get an x ray? Does anyone have a good vet in Louisville, Ky? I called my regular vet and they didn't know anyone beside the crazy first vet I had gone to. The one listed here under my city is not there any longer. She has moved about 30 minutes away and I don't know anyone who has actually gone to her. I will take my star there right away if you guys think she needs to be seen.

Also I follow the care sheets to the letter. Food, temps, humidity, bulbs, substrate etc. She gets a huge variety of greens, flowers and weeds. She does love mazuri so she gets that a couple of nights a week. No extra vitamins since she gets a really good diet. Closed chamber to keep the humidity high. Large outdoor enclosure where I grow clovers, grasses and flowers all from seeds. Everything organic including the soil.

Any help will be much appreciated. I am freaking out with this ball thing on her leg. But two idiot vets have me scared too. Do you need better pictures? I didn't want to stress her out so I only took this one.


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## ascott (May 10, 2018)

Lesa said:


> A few weeks ago I noticed my star was walking funny. Like her legs were weaker and maybe having trouble with her coordination. The back two legs appeared to be pushing off the ground fine. On the front legs both working but not lifting her up as high as normal. More of a side to side motion if that makes sense. All four limbs are working and if you softly pull on them you do get resistance but to me just seemed weaker and a little unsteady.
> 
> The only thing that had happened was I woke up one morning and she was asleep on top of her food. It was a mix of mazuri and rep-cal that I had forgotten to take away before I fell asleep. She was stuck to it. I guess the water plus heat and humidity had turned it into a paste. I have no idea how long she might have been stuck in her food. I gave her a good long soak and she seemed fine. A couple of days later is when I noticed the funny walking. I thought maybe she had pulled a muscle trying to get out of the food.
> 
> ...




I think that the tortoise looks fine....I would avoid trips to the vet when nothing appears wrong...the things you describe, please accept my apology, seem normal but more of a nervous human perhaps creating something of nothing.....a vet, in my opinion should be a last resort.

I would let the tort do what it does....if it is eating, basking and trucking about a bit then let the tort be.


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## Kasia (May 12, 2018)

Lesa said:


> A few weeks ago I noticed my star was walking funny. Like her legs were weaker and maybe having trouble with her coordination. The back two legs appeared to be pushing off the ground fine. On the front legs both working but not lifting her up as high as normal. More of a side to side motion if that makes sense. All four limbs are working and if you softly pull on them you do get resistance but to me just seemed weaker and a little unsteady.
> 
> The only thing that had happened was I woke up one morning and she was asleep on top of her food. It was a mix of mazuri and rep-cal that I had forgotten to take away before I fell asleep. She was stuck to it. I guess the water plus heat and humidity had turned it into a paste. I have no idea how long she might have been stuck in her food. I gave her a good long soak and she seemed fine. A couple of days later is when I noticed the funny walking. I thought maybe she had pulled a muscle trying to get out of the food.
> 
> ...


Hi  better pics are needed, from different angles. I see what you mean by ball but it can be a normal feature just exaggerated by the position you put her in. A video with her walking would be great too. That would make it easier for members to comment on. From what you have written I see you care about her very much!!!! For now I would watch her closely if the leg would require emergency Vet you would know it for sure (she will not put any weight on it, mostly sit in one area). And great job at the Vets the other day!


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## Lesa (May 16, 2018)

I am so sorry my reply is late. I did not have a notification of post replies. I took her to the new vet that is listed in the forums for my area, Teresa Gregory. She moved a short town away but I really liked her. She watched all my videos and took a long time with us and did not dismiss my fears about injections and previous vets. She took a small needle biospy and we are waiting for the lab results. Those had to be sent out so I am hoping we hear something by the end of the week. She gave me two liquid medications to give Rebel for now. The first is an antibiotic, sulfamethoxazole trimethoprism, 0.05 ml once daily. The other, metacam, 0.1 ml once daily is for swelling and pain.

Rebel will not touch her food with the drops so I have been using a syringe with a tiny tube on the end. The dosage is so small that I have to fill syringe with a maruzi mash (thanks Randy!) in order to push out the meds. She has had three doses so far with zero results. I think the swelling around the knee is worse. She is eating and seems to enjoy her soaks stretching her legs out. But she is not walking around much. I have made things as easy as I can so she doesn’t have to move around. She has been basking under her vapor bulb more than usual. I have not taken her out under the sun the last few days because I was worried she would walk on the leg too much.

I just read the story in the newsletter about the little tort with leg swelling who died. Now I am freaked out completely. My hands shake so much forcing these meds on her. I am so afraid it will stress her out and she will stop eating. New pics below. The swelling has increased around the knee since those first pictures. Her leg will not retract as far inside the shell as her other leg. It appears redder in color so I don’t know about an abscess (the vets first thought but need those labs) I will take video of her trying to walk if that would help.


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## Lesa (May 16, 2018)

More pictures but I cannot seem to get the video to upload.


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## Kasia (May 16, 2018)

Lesa said:


> View attachment 238825
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> 
> ...



That joint looks bad - were any additional X-rays taken? It’s wonderful that you found a trustworthy Vet! Hopefully she will find a solution for the swelling! In my opinion natural sunlight will be beneficial even if she moves a bit, you can give her an outside soak or just put her out on a blanket for a couple of minutes (watch her so she will not overheat). I keep mine fingers crossed for you both, give us updates. Maybe someone had a similar problem? @Yvonne @zovick @Tom


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## Lesa (May 17, 2018)

Kasia said:


> That joint looks bad - were any additional X-rays taken? It’s wonderful that you found a trustworthy Vet! Hopefully she will find a solution for the swelling! In my opinion natural sunlight will be beneficial even if she moves a bit, you can give her an outside soak or just put her out on a blanket for a couple of minutes (watch her so she will not overheat). I keep mine fingers crossed for you both, give us updates. Maybe someone had a similar problem? @Yvonne @zovick @Tom



The new vet didn’t take an x ray. Maybe because the leg is working? Her first thought was an abscess. She said we really need the cell cultures to know how to proceed. This swelling and redness is new. It is not as pronounced in my first post on May 9th. That is the first day I noticed the bump and minor swelling. Before that she was just walking weird. Slower and not as coordinated. But I could not figure out which limb or if all were weak. It wasn’t like she was dragging a leg. No obvious injury. And no trauma that I know of except getting stuck on her food. I can’t even say that was a trauma. Just the only out of the ordinary thing that had happened. That’s why I took her to the first idiot vet. But he did say nothing appeard broken (there was no bump or swelling then). I figured he has to at least be competent enough to see a broken bone or suggest an xray. He mentioned steroids but that just set off alarms with me. Not the steroids but him. I’m older and have had a few vets in my day. This guy was off his meds.

I figured spring and warm temps were finally here. I would get her outside in natural sun everyday and she could build up her strength. She was getting around better. Basking outside and munching on clover. I have watched her so closely. The day I saw the bump I had put her in a clay saucer with warm water. I wanted to see if she could climb out on her own. See if she was getting stronger and back to normal. She was really struggling to pull herself up. The front legs were shaky. I lifted her up and was checking her limbs carefully. To see if each one retracted and how much resistance when I tugged very lightly. Any difference with any limb. That’s when I saw the bump and minor swelling. I posted on Thursday but when I didn’t have any replies I found the new vet and took her in Friday morning. So here we are almost a week later and swelling worse. Waiting on these damn labs.

I have three other torts who are all thriving.


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## Kasia (May 17, 2018)

Maybe ask her to next time you visit, it looks like something is wrong with the joint. Was there any liquid running out after sticking the biopsy needle in it?


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## Lesa (May 17, 2018)

Kasia said:


> Maybe ask her to next time you visit, it looks like something is wrong with the joint. Was there any liquid running out after sticking the biopsy needle in it?


As far as I know there was not. She took some cells from the bump near the spurs. It was such a tiny amount. The size of a pin head. The leg didn’t look as bad at the vet visit. Like the first set of pics I posted. Now there is the redness and more swelling around the joint. I just gave Rebel the meds and she is eating her breakfast.

The vet isn’t in today and the labs aren’t back. Vet will be in tomorrow and they gave me a number to text the new pics. The vet should call me first thing and see if I should bring her back in. We should get temps in the low 80’s but thunderstorms predicted. I am taking a vacation day and will stay home with her. If I can I will get her out in the sun and see how she does. I can isolate her in a small area were she can bask but not move around. Or should she be moving and using it? I have a bad knee that swells myself and have to find that balance between moving and keeping active and not doing too much.

She has this round platform the size of a dinner plate that has a good gripping texture right under her light. She is basking now. I have the coconut coir around the rest of the enclosure and level with the platform so she can easily move to her hide or under some plants. The coconut is soft so she scoots more on it. I had put some tiles turned over with texture on the sides of enclosure but she hasn’t used those. I don’t know if the soft texture is good or I can add more texture. Not sure the best way to help. Does she need to be off the leg or moving and doing more “physical therapy”. I am leaning towards easy if it is an abscess and painful. You can see her “recovery” enclosure. It is plain and small.


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## Kasia (May 17, 2018)

The enclosure looks great  I hope it all will end well for this little one, it shows how much you care for her! I’m waiting for the Vet update!!!


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## Lesa (May 22, 2018)

Kasia said:


> The enclosure looks great  I hope it all will end well for this little one, it shows how much you care for her! I’m waiting for the Vet update!!!



Still waiting on the damn lab results. Put another call into the vet to light a fire under someone’s *** and get those results. She hasn’t shown much improvement with the two medications. The leg looks about the same maybe a little less swollen. Thankfully she is pretty easy to get the meds into with a tiny tube on the end of the syringe.

Still enjoying her soaks and eating. No weight loss but she is not walking around much. Basking under her light. I have been getting her outside for some natural light in the afternoon. She is struggling to move around and goes to her favorite spot under some clover. She doesn’t munch on any clover and only wants to eat mazuri. But at least she is still eating. This is so frustrating!


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## Kasia (May 22, 2018)

It’s great that she’s eating but honestly it’s a long time to wait, If meds don’t work I would get back to the Vet and ask for further testing. Quality of life is everything for an animal and she’s practically immobile and maybe hurting. Rush them and ask fo another consult, it’s not going to get better let’s hope it’s not going to get worse... I would like to be in your shoes...and wish you all the best!!!


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## Yvonne G (May 22, 2018)

Not being able to see it in real life, I can only guess. At first I thought maybe it was broken, or joint out of socket, but looking at the picture it looks like a big gob of pus just under the skin. Going to the vet was the best choice. Now we just have to wait for them to respond to you.


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## ascott (May 22, 2018)

Lesa said:


> As far as I know there was not. She took some cells from the bump near the spurs. It was such a tiny amount. The size of a pin head. The leg didn’t look as bad at the vet visit. Like the first set of pics I posted. Now there is the redness and more swelling around the joint. I just gave Rebel the meds and she is eating her breakfast.
> 
> The vet isn’t in today and the labs aren’t back. Vet will be in tomorrow and they gave me a number to text the new pics. The vet should call me first thing and see if I should bring her back in. We should get temps in the low 80’s but thunderstorms predicted. I am taking a vacation day and will stay home with her. If I can I will get her out in the sun and see how she does. I can isolate her in a small area were she can bask but not move around. Or should she be moving and using it? I have a bad knee that swells myself and have to find that balance between moving and keeping active and not doing too much.
> 
> She has this round platform the size of a dinner plate that has a good gripping texture right under her light. She is basking now. I have the coconut coir around the rest of the enclosure and level with the platform so she can easily move to her hide or under some plants. The coconut is soft so she scoots more on it. I had put some tiles turned over with texture on the sides of enclosure but she hasn’t used those. I don’t know if the soft texture is good or I can add more texture. Not sure the best way to help. Does she need to be off the leg or moving and doing more “physical therapy”. I am leaning towards easy if it is an abscess and painful. You can see her “recovery” enclosure. It is plain and small.



Something stands out to me here....you say the coconut coir substrate is soft so she scoots more on it.....the substrate should be a firm solid walking surface....I would warm water soak the substrate....and then once it absorbs up the water I would firmly press the substrate down solid by hand....repeat until the substrate is firm...a tortoise will have joint/muscle issues and can harm the development of the legs if they have no firm foothold....


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## Lesa (May 22, 2018)

Yvonne G said:


> Not being able to see it in real life, I can only guess. At first I thought maybe it was broken, or joint out of socket, but looking at the picture it looks like a big gob of pus just under the skin. Going to the vet was the best choice. Now we just have to wait for them to respond to you.



I just spoke with the vet. She is hoping the lab will call this afternoon. She put a call into them to get these results asap. She doesn’t want to proceed until she has the results. She is thinking abscess not broken. Rebel can walk on it. Retract it and does give resistance it you tug on that limb.


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## Lesa (May 22, 2018)

ascott said:


> Something stands out to me here....you say the coconut coir substrate is soft so she scoots more on it.....the substrate should be a firm solid walking surface....I would warm water soak the substrate....and then once it absorbs up the water I would firmly press the substrate down solid by hand....repeat until the substrate is firm...a tortoise will have joint/muscle issues and can harm the development of the legs if they have no firm foothold....



I have packed it down firmly for her. Before in her larger enclosure she had different textures to walk on. Rocks, platform with grooves, coconut coir moist but it wasn’t super firm. She liked to burrow into it a little. Outside has grass, pebbles, sand, bark etc. A lot of variety but no heights. With her high dome she can’t right herself as well so I didn’t want to take any chances. I have no clue how she hurt her leg. No trauma no wound. Just the one time stuck on her food.


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## Lesa (May 22, 2018)

Kasia said:


> It’s great that she’s eating but honestly it’s a long time to wait, If meds don’t work I would get back to the Vet and ask for further testing. Quality of life is everything for an animal and she’s practically immobile and maybe hurting. Rush them and ask fo another consult, it’s not going to get better let’s hope it’s not going to get worse... I would like to be in your shoes...and wish you all the best!!!



Thanks, hopefully they will call today. I won’t let her suffer but we need the labs to see what to do next. She does enjoy her soaks and stretches both back legs out. I’ll get her out in the sun and grass. The vet didn’t think there was any harm in getting her out and see how mobile she is. As soon as I can leave work I’ll be spending the rest of the day with her and waiting by the phone.


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## ascott (May 22, 2018)

Lesa said:


> I have packed it down firmly for her. Before in her larger enclosure she had different textures to walk on. Rocks, platform with grooves, coconut coir moist but it wasn’t super firm. She liked to burrow into it a little. Outside has grass, pebbles, sand, bark etc. A lot of variety but no heights. With her high dome she can’t right herself as well so I didn’t want to take any chances. I have no clue how she hurt her leg. No trauma no wound. Just the one time stuck on her food.




Okay so I have to ask....what the H to you mean Just the one time stuck ON her food? what exactly does that intel?


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## Lesa (May 23, 2018)

ascott said:


> Okay so I have to ask....what the H to you mean Just the one time stuck ON her food? what exactly does that intel?


You didn’t read my original post.


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## Melis (May 23, 2018)

Thinking about your little one! Hope you get an update today


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## CarolM (May 23, 2018)

Melis said:


> Thinking about your little one! Hope you get an update today


Same here. Big electronic hug.


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## ascott (May 23, 2018)

Lesa said:


> You didn’t read my original post.


Actually I did....it was two weeks ago and I have to say that when I read a post, I go from that and then build from it...my apology about the oversight and poor recall....do you mean the tortoise could not separate itself physically from the food or do you mean not so literal?


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## Diamond (May 23, 2018)

Hope you get some info from the vet soon. Keep us posted.


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## Lesa (May 24, 2018)

ascott said:


> Actually I did....it was two weeks ago and I have to say that when I read a post, I go from that and then build from it...my apology about the oversight and poor recall....do you mean the tortoise could not separate itself physically from the food or do you mean not so literal?



She must have fallen asleep on top of her food. Which I normally would not leave in the enclosure but I was tired and fell asleep myself. I went to get her for her morning soak and she was kind of stuck to it. I was able to pick her up (I didn’t have to use force or pry her off) the mazuri and rep cal was just stuck to the bottom of her shell. It was almost like peanut butter. Thick and mushy. Maybe she could have moved off of it. I don’t know. Maybe she was sitting there for five minutes. She had a nice long soak and ate breakfast. This is the only thing that has happened to her in a year and a half. I can’t think of anything else. I even have web cams so I can check on all my torts while at work.

Nothing seemed off at all until a few days later when she was walking slower. All four limbs were working. I couldn’t tell a difference between any limb. She just was off. Scooting more than completely upright with a good space between the botton of her shell and the ground. I wish I could get the videos to upload but I get an error message. Thats when I took her to the first vet just to be safe. He didn’t see anything wrong but wanted to inject her with steroids just in case. I said no. I didn’t like him and honestly he seemed drunk or high. Or maybe just a weirdo. She seemed to be doing better until I saw the bump and minor swelling on the one leg.

Now I am still waiting on these lab results. I am furious. Her new vet is working at the humane society today so I can’t reach her. I want to drive up there and go ballistic but I don’t know any other vet in Louisville, Ky for torts. If I don’t get some answers by tomorrow I’ll drive to Ohio or Indiana if I have to. If anyone has a good vet anywhere within driving distance please tell me.


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## Yvonne G (May 24, 2018)

It might possible be weak bones due to calcium deficiency. What's your calcium/UVB administration to the tortoise like?


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## Lesa (May 24, 2018)

Yvonne G said:


> It might possible be weak bones due to calcium deficiency. What's your calcium/UVB administration to the tortoise like?


I use the mercury vapor bulbs. I leave light on 12 to 14 hours per day. I sprinkled calcium powder on their food twice a week when small. Now I shave cuttle bones with a cheese grater and have a bowl of that in the enclosure along with a few whole pieces. Maruzi, rep cal, soaked and sprinkled with tiny grass clippings a couple of times a week. This little star loves mazuri so she gets it more than the others. All of mine get outside in natural light almost every day weather permitting. We did have a longer winter so inside for those months.

I called vets office again to ask them to check on lab results. I also called the damn lab in Ohio and begged them to check and see what was going on. Still waiting for call backs. Called several vets locally and one Stony Brook said they have a Laura Fulkerson who treats reptiles. Never heard of her and they use the same lab! Said two weeks as least on labs. I also sent messages to my Instagram friends for vets in my area. If it is an abscess why can’t they tell right away? If I had an abscess I could tell.


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## Diamond (May 24, 2018)

I don't know if its safe for torts, but when my horses get an inflammation anywhere we use dmso. It helps to draw out the swelling. It does not take much. Maybe the vet could tell you if its safe for them or not. You can buy it at any feed store. If its ok to use I would just put a small dab of it on and put a little dressing over it and some vet wrap, then check it daily to see it helps. Sorry, just trying to think of some possible home treatments until you get answers. I can tell you are very concerned.


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## Kasia (May 24, 2018)

Diamond said:


> I don't know if its safe for torts, but when my horses get an inflammation anywhere we use dmso. It helps to draw out the swelling. It does not take much. Maybe the vet could tell you if its safe for them or not. You can buy it at any feed store. If its ok to use I would just put a small dab of it on and put a little dressing over it and some vet wrap, then check it daily to see it helps. Sorry, just trying to think of some possible home treatments until you get answers. I can tell you are very concerned.


DMSO is not safe for animals if we are talking about the same stuff, solvent.


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## Diamond (May 24, 2018)

Probably not the same stuff you are thinking of. It's a vet recommended treatment, also used for people with bladder issues.


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## ascott (May 24, 2018)

Lesa said:


> She must have fallen asleep on top of her food. Which I normally would not leave in the enclosure but I was tired and fell asleep myself. I went to get her for her morning soak and she was kind of stuck to it. I was able to pick her up (I didn’t have to use force or pry her off) the mazuri and rep cal was just stuck to the bottom of her shell. It was almost like peanut butter. Thick and mushy. Maybe she could have moved off of it. I don’t know. Maybe she was sitting there for five minutes. She had a nice long soak and ate breakfast. This is the only thing that has happened to her in a year and a half. I can’t think of anything else. I even have web cams so I can check on all my torts while at work.
> 
> Nothing seemed off at all until a few days later when she was walking slower. All four limbs were working. I couldn’t tell a difference between any limb. She just was off. Scooting more than completely upright with a good space between the botton of her shell and the ground. I wish I could get the videos to upload but I get an error message. Thats when I took her to the first vet just to be safe. He didn’t see anything wrong but wanted to inject her with steroids just in case. I said no. I didn’t like him and honestly he seemed drunk or high. Or maybe just a weirdo. She seemed to be doing better until I saw the bump and minor swelling on the one leg.
> 
> Now I am still waiting on these lab results. I am furious. Her new vet is working at the humane society today so I can’t reach her. I want to drive up there and go ballistic but I don’t know any other vet in Louisville, Ky for torts. If I don’t get some answers by tomorrow I’ll drive to Ohio or Indiana if I have to. If anyone has a good vet anywhere within driving distance please tell me.



Oh, well that seems kinda normal  so I would not worry about that. Maybe just wait and see what they come up with and in the mean time just let the tort do what a tort does...eat, bask, muck about a bit and try to not worry....I mean, there is not much you can do at this point anyway...I would just enjoy the tort and let the tort relax....perhaps the tort just strained that leg trying to climb the sides of the enclosure and just strained it and in the end it will be nothing...that too can be an outcome


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## Lesa (May 25, 2018)

ascott said:


> Oh, well that seems kinda normal  so I would not worry about that. Maybe just wait and see what they come up with and in the mean time just let the tort do what a tort does...eat, bask, muck about a bit and try to not worry....I mean, there is not much you can do at this point anyway...I would just enjoy the tort and let the tort relax....perhaps the tort just strained that leg trying to climb the sides of the enclosure and just strained it and in the end it will be nothing...that too can be an outcome



Thank you and everyone who has replied. I am still waiting to hear from the vet about the labs. It is so disheartening to call begging for them to check with the lab and see what is going on. We are now a week over due for the results. I guess I will take her to another vet on Monday if I still haven’t heard by then. She did bask out in the sun yesterday. You can still see the red swelling but she was able to put weight on the leg.


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## Lesa (May 25, 2018)

The vet finally called with the lab results and is saying gout. She is calling around for some type of medicine. I don't understand how this happened. I have always given her a nice long soak every morning. I follow the care sheets on light, heat, humidity and diet. A huge variety in greens, weeds, clover. No fruit, no spinach etc. Her favorite food is mazuri and she has always loved radicchio. Where would the high protein be from? Is it the maruzi? The rep cal? I sprinkle tiny grass clippings on the wet maruzi. Any greens I buy at the store are organic. Clovers and grasses I grow from seeds in organic soil. Or from my yard and I have never used any type of pesticides in my yard ever for 20 years. Always fresh water plus the soaks so I can’t imagine dehydration. She poops perfect little jelly beans. Steady weight gain. 

Any advice?


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## CarolM (May 25, 2018)

Go and type in Gout in the search box, there are a few previous posts about them. The one I found interesting - in particular Will's comment towards the end, might help a little bit. But basically maybe add more fibre to your little ones diet and see if that helps at all. There are quite a few threads about gout. So it is definitly worth searching and reading them all to see if you can get any tips.

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/sulcata-shell-growth-question.145619/#post-1371650


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## CarolM (May 25, 2018)

Lesa said:


> The vet finally called with the lab results and is saying gout. She is calling around for some type of medicine. I don't understand how this happened. I have always given her a nice long soak every morning. I follow the care sheets on light, heat, humidity and diet. A huge variety in greens, weeds, clover. No fruit, no spinach etc. Her favorite food is mazuri and she has always loved radicchio. Where would the high protein be from? Is it the maruzi? The rep cal? I sprinkle tiny grass clippings on the wet maruzi. Any greens I buy at the store are organic. Clovers and grasses I grow from seeds in organic soil. Or from my yard and I have never used any type of pesticides in my yard ever for 20 years. Always fresh water plus the soaks so I can’t imagine dehydration. She poops perfect little jelly beans. Steady weight gain.
> 
> Any advice?


Also maybe list exactly what food you feed and then go look at the ratio's and see if any of them or all of them have high protein levels and how many of them you feed with any fibre in them. And then try and work out a which foods you will need to feed to bring her food proteins, water and fibre to a more balanced ratio.


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## Lesa (May 25, 2018)

CarolM said:


> Also maybe list exactly what food you feed and then go look at the ratio's and see if any of them or all of them have high protein levels and how many of them you feed with any fibre in them. And then try and work out a which foods you will need to feed to bring her food proteins, water and fibre to a more balanced ratio.



Thanks. I am reading every post on gout. Going back over care sheets. I can soak her twice a day like I did when she was a hatchling. More time with natural sunlight now that summer is here. Up the humidity over 80%. Try the new medication.


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## CarolM (May 25, 2018)

Lesa said:


> Thanks. I am reading every post on gout. Going back over care sheets. I can soak her twice a day like I did when she was a hatchling. More time with natural sunlight now that summer is here. Up the humidity over 80%. Try the new medication.


Read this one. It was very interesting.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/teabag-pillow.144140/page-1


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## CarolM (May 25, 2018)

CarolM said:


> Read this one. It was very interesting.
> 
> http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/teabag-pillow.144140/page-1


Also ask the Vet who said it was gout what or why she said gout , what was the ratio. As on reading the above post, your treatment, depends on the ratio of the blood calcium/phosphorus ratio value (that is if I understood it correctly) Sorry I am not an expert nor a vet. Just going on what I am reading in the posts and what I understand they are saying. I could be wrong though. So please check first.


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## Lesa (May 25, 2018)

CarolM said:


> Also ask the Vet who said it was gout what or why she said gout , what was the ratio. As on reading the above post, your treatment, depends on the ratio of the blood calcium/phosphorus ratio value (that is if I understood it correctly) Sorry I am not an expert nor a vet. Just going on what I am reading in the posts and what I understand they are saying. I could be wrong though. So please check first.


I didn’t get the numbers from the vet but I will ask for the report. I am waiting for this pharmacy to call with the medication. I will update on what it is and the dose once I pick it up. The tea bag soak looks interesting. I will ask the vet and I wonder if I can go to an herb shop and find it. I don’t drink tea and on my own I’d end up with some kind of green tea or earl grey. I’m in the South and the only tea around here is iced tea with loads of sugar!

The other thing is Rebel is basking right under her light. It’s about 103 degrees and she moved to it. The smaller “recovery” enclosure has bulb in the center and the corners or cooler sides are around 83 degrees. She appears to want the heat. Also meds will be liquid the same as the anitbiotics. She has been really good with me using the syringe. I could add a little water to the syringe for more hydration. Any thoughts? I have the next four days off work and I can nurse her 24/7.


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## CarolM (May 25, 2018)

Lesa said:


> I didn’t get the numbers from the vet but I will ask for the report. I am waiting for this pharmacy to call with the medication. I will update on what it is and the dose once I pick it up. The tea bag soak looks interesting. I will ask the vet and I wonder if I can go to an herb shop and find it. I don’t drink tea and on my own I’d end up with some kind of green tea or earl grey. I’m in the South and the only tea around here is iced tea with loads of sugar!
> 
> The other thing is Rebel is basking right under her light. It’s about 103 degrees and she moved to it. The smaller “recovery” enclosure has bulb in the center and the corners or cooler sides are around 83 degrees. She appears to want the heat. Also meds will be liquid the same as the anitbiotics. She has been really good with me using the syringe. I could add a little water to the syringe for more hydration. Any thoughts? I have the next four days off work and I can nurse her 24/7.


I am not sure about adding the water to the syringe (I am presuming you mean with the medicine) as it will dilute the medicine and I don't know if that will effect the strength of said medicine. Maybe try a little water after you have given the meds.


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## Lesa (May 25, 2018)

CarolM said:


> I am not sure about adding the water to the syringe (I am presuming you mean with the medicine) as it will dilute the medicine and I don't know if that will effect the strength of said medicine. Maybe try a little water after you have given the meds.


Meds won’t be ready until late today. Some special animal pharmacy is putting it together. She said it would be diluted and have an apple flavor. I meant after the meds I could give her some water with the syringe. She has always been a good drinker. I have kept a shallow dish in her enclosure at all times. I think someone on the forums had said no water dish for an Indian Star because of their high domes but I decided to use one. It is more shallow than a clay saucer. 

I am just at a loss as to how this happened. I have three other torts who are all healthy. I am crazy obsessive with my care. I wasn’t this fanatical when my son was a baby. I have more gadgets and monitoring devices than I ever did for a newborn. If she needed a new leg I’d take her to a specialist and get her a 3D printed one. I won’t let her suffer but I will also do everything humanly possible to take care of her. I doubled my life insurance so if anything happened to me my son knows half that money is for their care. Like I am nuts over my torts. This is a huge knife to my heart.


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## CarolM (May 25, 2018)

CarolM said:


> I am not sure about adding the water to the syringe (I am presuming you mean with the medicine) as it will dilute the medicine and I don't know if that will effect the strength of said medicine. Maybe try a little water after you have given the meds.


@YvonneG, @Will, @Kasia, @Tom can you guys perhaps give some help here as Kasia you went through this already, so may possibly be able to give more insight. Yvonne, Will and Tom, I thought you would be able to perhaps give some advice with regards to the diet and how to get the balance of fibre, protein and water right. Sorry I could not think of anyone else who has the expertise with regards to good advise far as balancing their diet is concerned and of course with regards to the heat comments above. Thank you.


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## Lesa (May 25, 2018)

CarolM said:


> @YvonneG, @Will, @Kasia, @Tom can you guys perhaps give some help here as Kasia you went through this already, so may possibly be able to give more insight. Yvonne, Will and Tom, I thought you would be able to perhaps give some advice with regards to the diet and how to get the balance of fibre, protein and water right. Sorry I could not think of anyone else who has the expertise with regards to good advise far as balancing their diet is concerned and of course with regards to the heat comments above. Thank you.


Thank you so much. I am just sobbing like an idiot.


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## CarolM (May 25, 2018)

Lesa said:


> Meds won’t be ready until late today. Some special animal pharmacy is putting it together. She said it would be diluted and have an apple flavor. I meant after the meds I could give her some water with the syringe. She has always been a good drinker. I have kept a shallow dish in her enclosure at all times. I think someone on the forums had said no water dish for an Indian Star because of their high domes but I decided to use one. It is more shallow than a clay saucer.
> 
> I am just at a loss as to how this happened. I have three other torts who are all healthy. I am crazy obsessive with my care. I wasn’t this fanatical when my son was a baby. I have more gadgets and monitoring devices than I ever did for a newborn. If she needed a new leg I’d take her to a specialist and get her a 3D printed one. I won’t let her suffer but I will also do everything humanly possible to take care of her. I doubled my life insurance so if anything happened to me my son knows half that money is for their care. Like I am nuts over my torts. This is a huge knife to my heart.


You shouldn't beat your self up. We can all see how much you care. It may be that she is more sensitive to what she eats and the ratios needed. I don't think you did anything wrong. Just maybe that the good stuff she is eating might be a little too high in protein levels and she can't handle it. You will probably have to be more careful on the variety you give her than you do your other torts. It might not even be the food, IDK just looking at all possibilities based on what I googled about gout and the things that you can control. What Will said in that other thread makes sense to me. About fibre being needed to move things along in the gut. I think he said something to the effect of without enough fibre to move it, the food (plants) with the higher protein levels will sit there and could possibly contribute to the issue. So if going forward if you know what ratios what has and you feed her accordingly, providing a good balance it won't do any harm and just might do the world of good. Do you by any chance get plantain there as I believe it is supposed to be an execellent source for fibre for them. And sorry for the wrong presumption. If she will take the water, then I can't see why not.


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## CarolM (May 25, 2018)

Lesa said:


> Thank you so much. I am just sobbing like an idiot.


Shame. I know you feel helpless at the moment. But now you know what the problem is hopefully we can all get together and try and help you where we can, with what we know.


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## daniellenc (May 25, 2018)

Don't beat yourself up. You saw the problem, went to the vet, paid a ton I'm sure, and are providing meds. Some tortoises are more sensitive than others and you wouldn't know that until something like this happens. Just follow the threads and make a few changes!! And good luck with that sweet baby.


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## Kapidolo Farms (May 25, 2018)

How people write is as important as the content, when style is stripped away. For me regarding star husbandry @Markw84 's writing works best to communicate much. Maybe Mark would have some POV on husbandry for the OP.


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## CarolM (May 25, 2018)

Will said:


> How people write is as important as the content, when style is stripped away. For me regarding star husbandry @Markw84 's writing works best to communicate much. Maybe Mark would have some POV on husbandry for the OP.


Thank you Will.


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## Lesa (May 25, 2018)

I picked up the medication that was compounded specifically for her needs. Called allopurinol and she gets .25ml once a day. I’ve asked the vet to send me a copy of the lab report. I’ll start researching diet changes and look for any supplemental care I can provide. If she needs more hydration to help what about cucumbers or watermelon? If she is having trouble getting around to the water dish to drink. I will up her to twice daily soaks. Fingers crossed these meds will help. She has actually gained a couple of grams so at least no weight loss and she is eating. 

Thank you to everyone! I would be an even bigger mess without your help.


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## KarenSoCal (May 25, 2018)

Lesa said:


> I picked up the medication that was compounded specifically for her needs. Called allopurinol and she gets .25ml once a day. I’ve asked the vet to send me a copy of the lab report. I’ll start researching diet changes and look for any supplemental care I can provide. If she needs more hydration to help what about cucumbers or watermelon? If she is having trouble getting around to the water dish to drink. I will up her to twice daily soaks. Fingers crossed these meds will help. She has actually gained a couple of grams so at least no weight loss and she is eating.
> 
> Thank you to everyone! I would be an even bigger mess without your help.


Allopurinol is also a people med...my husband takes it for gout. Just FYI...
I pray for relief for your baby.


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## CarolM (May 25, 2018)

Cucumber I think you could add occassionally but it has to be part of a varied diet. I could be wrong but watermelon i would think has too much sugar. However I am not too clued up on the diet requirements for stars. So maybe wait for someone else who is advise on that.


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## ascott (May 25, 2018)

Lesa said:


> Thank you so much. I am just sobbing like an idiot.



What makes you think that this is your fault? I mean, that is a young tort....likely what ever has shown itself is a result of factors prior to you.....Your set up sounds great....you are a hover craft over the tort and I doubt you are the cause.....also, gout will work itself out, what I mean is that it will go just as it will come from time to time....relax dear. You say you have other torts that are "fine"...so what makes you think you need to take on the responsibility of fault....just the way it goes sometimes....I mean, some folks get diseases and other don't....the tort already has its make up and that has nothing to do with you. Period.


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## ascott (May 25, 2018)

Lesa said:


> Thank you so much. I am just sobbing like an idiot.




Also, I would super research that med and make sure that the side effects are not worse than the small "benefit" it claims to offer.....I mean, this is a wild animal (albeit, confined in a captive situation) and not a human....I would be hesitant...


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## Kasia (May 25, 2018)

Lesa said:


> I picked up the medication that was compounded specifically for her needs. Called allopurinol and she gets .25ml once a day. I’ve asked the vet to send me a copy of the lab report. I’ll start researching diet changes and look for any supplemental care I can provide. If she needs more hydration to help what about cucumbers or watermelon? If she is having trouble getting around to the water dish to drink. I will up her to twice daily soaks. Fingers crossed these meds will help. She has actually gained a couple of grams so at least no weight loss and she is eating.
> 
> Thank you to everyone! I would be an even bigger mess without your help.



@Lesa
Mine got allopurinal as well for gout, it helped with the blood results but it suppresed apetite, so he could not take it any more. Deposits were surgically removed. Rufin had inflamation under his head - one bump each side. Probably that is why the joint is swollen. Talk with your Vet because issue with Rufin was in his liver! So all the allopurinal in the world would not heal him, just get him in better shape. Rufin was all swollen, soaks that I made for him and allopurinal made it better. And the most important diffrence yours is little and is kept in perfect conditions... Rufin had 25 + years of wrong everything so take it as it is Rebel is just sick. Calcium to phosphorus ratio is one of the indicators how kidneys are working, its not a gout indicator but more how system is working parameter.


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## Kasia (May 25, 2018)

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/gout.142392/page-2


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## Kasia (May 25, 2018)

In the end this is what help him
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornithine
Rufin has been getting a content of one capsule daily for a month or so but after 2 weeks I noticed a difference. He is still with me so have hope!


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## Lesa (May 26, 2018)

ascott said:


> What makes you think that this is your fault? I mean, that is a young tort....likely what ever has shown itself is a result of factors prior to you.....Your set up sounds great....you are a hover craft over the tort and I doubt you are the cause.....also, gout will work itself out, what I mean is that it will go just as it will come from time to time....relax dear. You say you have other torts that are "fine"...so what makes you think you need to take on the responsibility of fault....just the way it goes sometimes....I mean, some folks get diseases and other don't....the tort already has its make up and that has nothing to do with you. Period.


Thank you. I’m just spinning. I used the mercury vapor bulbs not the long fluorescent bulb Markw84 recommended. But temps were good and I use a humidifer to help keep the humidity maintained. I also use the coconut coir instead of reptile bark. I tried the bark when she was tiny but she struggled walking on it and tipped over a few times so I switched. She was only 19 grams when I got her. I packed it down but to me I considered it “soft” as compared to other substrates. Moss in her hide but she prefers sleeping under plants.

Since all this strange walking she doesn’t seem to want the greens I mix for her as much. She gotten more hooked on the mazuri and maybe I’ve fed her too much of it. But it’s soaked in water so that should have added to her water intake. I tried a salad with greens, cactus and cucumber last night but she didn’t seem interested. She will always eat the maruzi and rep cal but can too much harm her or is it better to keep her eating? I saw some urates when she soaked last night but no poop. She likes sleeping under this wheat grass I buy or under a pathos plant I hung. Store bought and she munched on them now and again. Could there have been something wrong with them? I took them out just in case. Sometimes she would do this little wiggle after her soak and then poop. I called it her poopy dance. Maybe it was something wrong. I am just going over and over everything.

She has maintained her weight over winter but not a huge amount of growth. She is 85 grams at a year and a half. She started at 19. Slow and steady but she had a nice growth spurt last summer. It’s hard to judge compared to my leopards and sulcata.
I keep spread sheets and chart everything. Things I attributed to winter might have been the gout. I will try the new medication and keep a close eye on her appetite. The vet did not want to try surgery with her small size. I’ll post the labs as soon as I get a copy. I have a list of higher fiber foods. I will change to the flourescent bulb. I already bought some more reptile bark and will add an area in her enclosure. But I don’t want her to put too much stress on the leg right now. See if I can get the swelling down. Get her outside everyday in natural light. Longer twice daily soaks. Try to get some xanax for myself!

I feel responsible because I am responsible for her life. I have other pets. I used to do rescue work but after so many years it takes a toll. But when you adopt a pet, any pet, you are responsible for the them for their entire life. My horrible neighbors have put their declawed cat outside because he was peeing on their horrible little brats stuff. Well the kids are monsters and I don’t blame the cat. He hangs out in my big backyard and front porch. I leave food and water out for him just in case. It kills me but I cannot keep their cat. I can’t take that on. If something happens to me tomorrow I have made arrangements for my pets. If my torts outlive me and I hope they do I know my son will care for them. He is okay with that. Bottom line I want this little star to live a wonderful life even after I’m gone.


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## Lesa (May 26, 2018)

Kasia said:


> In the end this is what help him
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornithine
> Rufin has been getting a content of one capsule daily for a month or so but after 2 weeks I noticed a difference. He is still with me so have hope!


Thank you! I will check into it.


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## Lesa (May 26, 2018)

See below lab report. I wish it had more information. It says female but of course I don’t know the sex at this age. I just say her because she/he is so beautiful.


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## ascott (May 26, 2018)

Lesa said:


> Thank you! I will check into it.



I personally would discontinue the Mazuri, it is a processed commercial food, just like dog and cat food....period and expect your tort to go on strike when you remove this highly addictive item... Perhaps offer to the tortoise like once or twice a month, max. I would, for now, offer high water content greens (romaine, red and green leaf lettuce) to help get hydration inside as well as up the soaks to once or twice a day and make them a long warm soak...like 30 mins, perhaps set up under a warming lamp to maintain the warmth of the water...I would again hesitate to use that med, it is designed for humans and is being sampled with other animals...that is just one more thing that the kidneys will have to process...again, my opinion.

I personally would not change your substrate, I would just be certain it is solid packed and a little moist under the basking spot....

Oh and the reason I asked you why you felt the present condition of the tort was your doing is that before you acquired this tort ...it is likely that the beginnings of the damage has already began....I mean, there is a small window in time for the tortoise to move from perfect to dinged...hell, we all have that window in relation to species....so while the tort may have this issue, I again would avoid using meds....I would increase the water intake...I would increase soaks to longer warm soaks ..I would stop Mazuri....I would increase wet leafy greens in the diet to aid in hydration and the dark leafy greens give a good way to wean from the Mazuri addiction.


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## Lesa (May 26, 2018)

ascott said:


> I personally would discontinue the Mazuri, it is a processed commercial food, just like dog and cat food....period and expect your tort to go on strike when you remove this highly addictive item... Perhaps offer to the tortoise like once or twice a month, max. I would, for now, offer high water content greens (romaine, red and green leaf lettuce) to help get hydration inside as well as up the soaks to once or twice a day and make them a long warm soak...like 30 mins, perhaps set up under a warming lamp to maintain the warmth of the water...I would again hesitate to use that med, it is designed for humans and is being sampled with other animals...that is just one more thing that the kidneys will have to process...again, my opinion.
> 
> I personally would not change your substrate, I would just be certain it is solid packed and a little moist under the basking spot....
> 
> Oh and the reason I asked you why you felt the present condition of the tort was your doing is that before you acquired this tort ...it is likely that the beginnings of the damage has already began....I mean, there is a small window in time for the tortoise to move from perfect to dinged...hell, we all have that window in relation to species....so while the tort may have this issue, I again would avoid using meds....I would increase the water intake...I would increase soaks to longer warm soaks ..I would stop Mazuri....I would increase wet leafy greens in the diet to aid in hydration and the dark leafy greens give a good way to wean from the Mazuri addiction.



I am already doing the long warm soaks and will get her off the mazuri. It has been a recent addiction. She has been a good eater with mustard greens and radicchio as favorites. On the outside enclosure I just added more organic soil and packed it down nice. Making it a little easier for her to get around. It’s about a 4x6 smaller garden she can have all to herself. I have a much larger maybe 10x20 she shared last year. 

As for the new meds, the vet had these specially formulated for her. Not off the shelf. This pharmacy makes the compounds in house. The .25ml includes the liquid it is mixed with so I do believe it is a tiny amount. I quizzed the pharmacist. What’s everyone’s thoughts on that? I need to get this swelling down. The vet said she has had good results with it but to call her on Monday. She had a dose yesterday and I could try it today and tomorrow? Soaks, wet leafy greens, no mazuri and meds until Monday and then reevaluate? No meds long term but enough to clear up the swelling? I am worried she is in pain and she did not eat any clover in the garden. That is very unusual.


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## ascott (May 26, 2018)

Lesa said:


> I am already doing the long warm soaks and will get her off the mazuri. It has been a recent addiction. She has been a good eater with mustard greens and radicchio as favorites. On the outside enclosure I just added more organic soil and packed it down nice. Making it a little easier for her to get around. It’s about a 4x6 smaller garden she can have all to herself. I have a much larger maybe 10x20 she shared last year.
> 
> As for the new meds, the vet had these specially formulated for her. Not off the shelf. This pharmacy makes the compounds in house. The .25ml includes the liquid it is mixed with so I do believe it is a tiny amount. I quizzed the pharmacist. What’s everyone’s thoughts on that? I need to get this swelling down. The vet said she has had good results with it but to call her on Monday. She had a dose yesterday and I could try it today and tomorrow? Soaks, wet leafy greens, no mazuri and meds until Monday and then reevaluate? No meds long term but enough to clear up the swelling? I am worried she is in pain and she did not eat any clover in the garden. That is very unusual.




I am not surprised that the tort is not eating as usual...I mean, a trip to the vet a needle to the knee and all the fussing plus the knee is likely a little annoying until the inflammation goes down....not admonishing you with this...simply just saying there have been some stuff going on in the tortoise life is all  Also, please read and research about reptile gout...it will ease and worry your mind some....but try to take the worry with the fact that there is nothing you can do about the past and that you two can only muster onward from this point....the changes you make to hydration and diet will aid in the reduction of the inflammation, thus reducing the swelling which will then aid in the torts swollen joint being able to relax....hence, less pain...will you be able to reduce all uncomfortableness in the joint for the tort ...likely not forever, is this a wild animal and able to compartmentalize that annoyance...yes....just like us humans do with manageable discomfort from time to time....

See, you do not want the issue to flare up over and over again...well, you want to help it not flare up over and over again...because each time it does...there are microbial sized crystals that will develop around the joints...these can accumulate and over time remain and ongoing issue and cause permanent damage....so the name of the game is prevention and management....diet and hydration are huge factors....also, the tort should be allowed and encouraged to remain mobile is it chooses to....just my take on what you posted so far here...take time and research that diagnosis...it is very liberating to understand what most of those diagnosis entail..,also will let you know it is a situation that you can help with, naturally.


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## Kasia (May 26, 2018)

I would do what Vet tells you. Give the meds as adviced, see how it goes. If you notice side effects tell Vet about it. It will take more then a day or two to see any changes. It took My tort over 3 months to recover.


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## Lesa (May 26, 2018)

Kasia said:


> I would do what Vet tells you. Give the meds as adviced, see how it goes. If you notice side effects tell Vet about it. It will take more then a day or two to see any changes. It took My tort over 3 months to recover.


Thanks to everyone here I feel much more confident. I have a plan to help her recover. She is a tough little thing with a big personality. I’ll update on her progress but I feel very hopeful with all the great information you guys have given me.


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## Diamond (May 26, 2018)

Glad you got an answer. Poor baby, gout is painful. My husband gets its from time to time and is miserable until his meds kick in. Your torts are lucky to have such a good caretaker. Hope your little one feels better soon.


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## Melis (May 26, 2018)

I also support you following vet advice about the medication. My dog gets “human” medicine that gets compounded specifically for her. Of course be diligent and educate yourself about it, but I don’t think it should be ruled out just because it is made for humans. I’m so glad you got some answers.


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## CarolM (Jun 1, 2018)

Hi Lesa.
How is your Baby doing? Any improvement?


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## Lesa (Jun 1, 2018)

CarolM said:


> Hi Lesa.
> How is your Baby doing? Any improvement?


Her leg appears the same. No better no worse but now one eye is half closed. That showed up last night. See picture attached. I don’t know if the gout meds got in there and irritated it or not. She’ll retract her head so fast when I’m doing the meds some gets on her face. I’ve been doing the soaks after the meds to help clean it off. I just picked up eye drops from the vet. Ofloxacin with one drop twice daily. She is eating a little and hasn’t lost any weight. She is going to her water to drink but not very active. Long soaks twice daily. Changed the mercury vapor bulb and upped the humidity to 90%. I have her out in the sun right now. I’m disappointed she doesn’t seem interested in the clover, honeysuckle or petunias I put around her. But she just had the gout meds, eye drops and soak so not at all happy.


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## CarolM (Jun 1, 2018)

Lesa said:


> Her leg appears the same. No better no worse but now one eye is half closed. That showed up last night. See picture attached. I don’t know if the gout meds got in there and irritated it or not. She’ll retract her head so fast when I’m doing the meds some gets on her face. I’ve been doing the soaks after the meds to help clean it off. I just picked up eye drops from the vet. Ofloxacin with one drop twice daily. She is eating a little and hasn’t lost any weight. She is going to her water to drink but not very active. Long soaks twice daily. Changed the mercury vapor bulb and upped the humidity to 90%. I have her out in the sun right now. I’m disappointed she doesn’t seem interested in the clover, honeysuckle or petunias I put around her. But she just had the gout meds, eye drops and soak so not at all happy.


Oh shame. I was hoping for some good news. It might take time to start working though, so hang in there. Holding thumbs for you.


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## Lesa (Jun 1, 2018)

CarolM said:


> Oh shame. I was hoping for some good news. It might take time to start working though, so hang in there. Holding thumbs for you.


Thanks, I am not giving up. It’s only been a week on the meds. If I can I will heal her from shear force of will.


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## CarolM (Jun 1, 2018)

Lesa said:


> Thanks, I am not giving up. It’s only been a week on the meds. If I can I will heal her from shear force of will.


Lol. I am sure that your shear force of will, will be quite a powerful medication. Keep us updated on how it is going please. I really hope that this story will have a good ending.


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## Lesa (Jun 1, 2018)

CarolM said:


> Lol. I am sure that your shear force of will, will be quite a powerful medication. Keep us updated on how it is going please. I really hope that this story will have a good ending.


I tuck her into my bra next to my heart and carry her around for weeks if it would work. It works on kittens!


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## CarolM (Jun 1, 2018)

Lesa said:


> I tuck her into my bra next to my heart and carry her around for weeks if it would work. It works on kittens!


Lol.


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## Lesa (Jun 5, 2018)

So the eye drops have not helped at all. Her eye was closed this morning. I gave her the gout meds and she is soaking now. Put another call into the vet. Who frankly seems useless. She can’t explain the eye and mentioned the only gout patient she had died. Thanks for the positive thoughts there doctor. I did see her eating some clover and radicchio yesterday and she has gained two grams. But no poop in her soaks. I am doing meds every morning, long soaks, a few hours in the sun during the day. Long soak at night. Should I try to get more fluids into her? I can just put water into the syringe. She is pretty good taking the meds. I worry with not finding poops. Maybe I am not seeing them. But usually with a long soak she will poop. Any thoughts?


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## ascott (Jun 5, 2018)

Lesa said:


> So the eye drops have not helped at all. Her eye was closed this morning. I gave her the gout meds and she is soaking now. Put another call into the vet. Who frankly seems useless. She can’t explain the eye and mentioned the only gout patient she had died. Thanks for the positive thoughts there doctor. I did see her eating some clover and radicchio yesterday and she has gained two grams. But no poop in her soaks. I am doing meds every morning, long soaks, a few hours in the sun during the day. Long soak at night. Should I try to get more fluids into her? I can just put water into the syringe. She is pretty good taking the meds. I worry with not finding poops. Maybe I am not seeing them. But usually with a long soak she will poop. Any thoughts?



Likely the slight weight gain is tied to no pooping....however, if you are medicating the tort and force feeding it I would not be surprised that there is little interest in normal daily behavior...I mean the force feeding can be pretty traumatic....gout is not a death sentence, but tinkering with most medications is. What exactly are you force feeding the tort? Why are you force feeding the tort if it is eating some on its own? I mean, why have you gone to such extremes for a little leg swelling? I am not understanding why such extremes?


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## Lesa (Jun 5, 2018)

ascott said:


> Likely the slight weight gain is tied to no pooping....however, if you are medicating the tort and force feeding it I would not be surprised that there is little interest in normal daily behavior...I mean the force feeding can be pretty traumatic....gout is not a death sentence, but tinkering with most medications is. What exactly are you force feeding the tort? Why are you force feeding the tort if it is eating some on its own? I mean, why have you gone to such extremes for a little leg swelling? I am not understanding why such extremes?


I am not force feeding. Only giving her the medication for the gout once a day and the eye drops twice a day. I was asking if I should give her water with the syringe to keep the hydration up and help with passing poop. I have a vet appointment on Saturday (the earliest they had) to check the eye and gout. I just feel like I should be doing more.


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## ascott (Jun 5, 2018)

Lesa said:


> I am not force feeding. Only giving her the medication for the gout once a day and the eye drops twice a day. I was asking if I should give her water with the syringe to keep the hydration up and help with passing poop. I have a vet appointment on Saturday (the earliest they had) to check the eye and gout. I just feel like I should be doing more.



Sometimes less is more. I mean, I read over and over you clearly saying that there is no improvement....so why subject the tortoise is all I am wondering? There are other things you can do to improve the living condition of the tort to allow the gout to go dormant....diet is a big thing....you clearly are soaking which is beneficial...why not try to address the food as a big means of help? I mean, the gout will not ever "go away" once it is present...it will only go dormant and then flare up in situations in which the diet is not proper for the condition or some stress on the tortoise....the eye swell thing will also likely resolve itself with diet and not being tainted with the meds....again, I am simply saying what I am seeing based on your post.....


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## ascott (Jun 5, 2018)

Lesa said:


> I am not force feeding. Only giving her the medication for the gout once a day and the eye drops twice a day. I was asking if I should give her water with the syringe to keep the hydration up and help with passing poop. I have a vet appointment on Saturday (the earliest they had) to check the eye and gout. I just feel like I should be doing more.



Oh and no, I would not force water into the tortoise via syringe.


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## Lesa (Jun 5, 2018)

ascott said:


> Oh and no, I would not force water into the tortoise via syringe.


I am addressing diet. The mazuri is gone. I am adding in more high water content greens (romaine, red and green leaf lettuce). I gave her plantains for fiber but she didn’t care for them. She is munching on radicchio right now. Any other suggestions on diet? Outside she has access to a huge variety of weeds, grasses and clover. I have a list from Markw84’s link. Most of the foods he has I have been feeding her entire life.


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## ascott (Jun 5, 2018)

Lesa said:


> I am addressing diet. The mazuri is gone. I am adding in more high water content greens (romaine, red and green leaf lettuce). I gave her plantains for fiber but she didn’t care for them. She is munching on radicchio right now. Any other suggestions on diet? Outside she has access to a huge variety of weeds, grasses and clover. I have a list from Markw84’s link. Most of the foods he has I have been feeding her entire life.



I wonder if you add a bit of squash or sweet potato (steamed a bit so it is soft) to her diet a couple times a week as well as maybe a slice or two of banana...I would also offer maybe a cherry or two (seed/pit removed). Now I am not advocating that you offer these items as a part of a daily diet....but, your goal here is to reduce inflammation right? Cherries are perfect for that, banana offers so many nutritional benefits and the squash and sweet potato are also beneficial for vit a intake....at this point the meds do not seem to be the answer or the swelling would have began to go down...and the longer the swelling is present that is damage occurring wouldn't you agree? I have heard of soaking snakes/lizards in a diluted bath with magnesium sulfate but I have not direct knowledge if that would be actually beneficial for your tortoise swollen limb...perhaps run this past your vet and see what the reaction is...I would research more but am pressed for time this am....but I would not poo poo this until you have exhausted this avenue....I am going to further research...but just not at this moment....have critters to feed before I go to work....

I apologize earlier about the force feeding question, it was entirely my misunderstanding about the syringe and the med you are force feeding. 

I also still believe that the condition your tort has is likely baggage that was in the making before you two met....


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## Lesa (Jun 5, 2018)

ascott said:


> I wonder if you add a bit of squash or sweet potato (steamed a bit so it is soft) to her diet a couple times a week as well as maybe a slice or two of banana...I would also offer maybe a cherry or two (seed/pit removed). Now I am not advocating that you offer these items as a part of a daily diet....but, your goal here is to reduce inflammation right? Cherries are perfect for that, banana offers so many nutritional benefits and the squash and sweet potato are also beneficial for vit a intake....at this point the meds do not seem to be the answer or the swelling would have began to go down...and the longer the swelling is present that is damage occurring wouldn't you agree? I have heard of soaking snakes/lizards in a diluted bath with magnesium sulfate but I have not direct knowledge if that would be actually beneficial for your tortoise swollen limb...perhaps run this past your vet and see what the reaction is...I would research more but am pressed for time this am....but I would not poo poo this until you have exhausted this avenue....I am going to further research...but just not at this moment....have critters to feed before I go to work....
> 
> I apologize earlier about the force feeding question, it was entirely my misunderstanding about the syringe and the med you are force feeding.
> 
> I also still believe that the condition your tort has is likely baggage that was in the making before you two met....


No apology necessary. Those are easy foods to add. I also ordered the tea bags that someone suggested to add to the soaks.


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## CarolM (Jun 5, 2018)

Lesa said:


> So the eye drops have not helped at all. Her eye was closed this morning. I gave her the gout meds and she is soaking now. Put another call into the vet. Who frankly seems useless. She can’t explain the eye and mentioned the only gout patient she had died. Thanks for the positive thoughts there doctor. I did see her eating some clover and radicchio yesterday and she has gained two grams. But no poop in her soaks. I am doing meds every morning, long soaks, a few hours in the sun during the day. Long soak at night. Should I try to get more fluids into her? I can just put water into the syringe. She is pretty good taking the meds. I worry with not finding poops. Maybe I am not seeing them. But usually with a long soak she will poop. Any thoughts?


I am so sorry that it is not getting better. Big electronic hugs.


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## Kasia (Jun 5, 2018)

Hi 
Keep a healthy diet, try natural herbal tea mixtures to increase diuresis. Ask for blood analisys to control uric acid level - test it regular to see how is the treatment going, she’s eating and is active so have hope. Consult another Vet to have a broader horizon, ask the current Vet for contact to someone more expirienced. 
Pushing more water in her could stress her probably sick system so I think no, make the water always available, if she wants to drink let her. Soak her daily. And wait...


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## Lesa (Jun 5, 2018)

Kasia said:


> Hi
> Keep a healthy diet, try natural herbal tea mixtures to increase diuresis. Ask for blood analisys to control uric acid level - test it regular to see how is the treatment going, she’s eating and is active so have hope. Consult another Vet to have a broader horizon, ask the current Vet for contact to someone more expirienced.
> Pushing more water in her could stress her probably sick system so I think no, make the water always available, if she wants to drink let her. Soak her daily. And wait...


I ordered the tea you used from a place in New York. I’ll talk to the vet on Saturday and get a referral. She was drinking during her soak earlier. She was stretched out basking in natural sun today. Didn’t want the banana or plantain but did eat some radicchio. Will try the sweet potato and cherries tomorrow. I will just be patient with her. Thanks for all your help!


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## Kasia (Jun 5, 2018)

Lesa said:


> I ordered the tea you used from a place in New York. I’ll talk to the vet on Saturday and get a referral. She was drinking during her soak earlier. She was stretched out basking in natural sun today. Didn’t want the banana or plantain but did eat some radicchio. Will try the sweet potato and cherries tomorrow. I will just be patient with her. Thanks for all your help!


Honestly it's a long process and from what you have written, her quality of life is pretty good so your doing a great work!


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## Lesa (Jun 10, 2018)

Update on my tortoise. We had a visit with the vet yesterday. She cleaned some gunk that was trapped under the eyelid and causing the problems. She wasn’t sure what the gunk was but it is not infection. I have new eye drops but just cleaning out lid made a huge difference. She has gained a couple of grams and the vet said she looked nice and hydrated. She was pleased there are no additional signs of gout. The leg looks about the same but it is a long process and we are to continue with the gout meds. Sweet potatoes were a hit but not the cherries or plantains. I have bananas and squash to try next and she is good with the red and green leaf lettuce. We’ve been having great weather so back outside for some more sunshine. She’s been getting in her water dish outside on her own and drinking and soaking. 

Thanks to everyone for the great advice and support.


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## CarolM (Jun 10, 2018)

Lesa said:


> Update on my tortoise. We had a visit with the vet yesterday. She cleaned some gunk that was trapped under the eyelid and causing the problems. She wasn’t sure what the gunk was but it is not infection. I have new eye drops but just cleaning out lid made a huge difference. She has gained a couple of grams and the vet said she looked nice and hydrated. She was pleased there are no additional signs of gout. The leg looks about the same but it is a long process and we are to continue with the gout meds. Sweet potatoes were a hit but not the cherries or plantains. I have bananas and squash to try next and she is good with the red and green leaf lettuce. We’ve been having great weather so back outside for some more sunshine. She’s been getting in her water dish outside on her own and drinking and soaking.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for the great advice and support.


That is really good news. So glad that things are looking up.


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## TaylorTortoise (Mar 22, 2021)

Please let us know how she is feeling!!!


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## TaylorTortoise (Mar 22, 2021)

Lesa said:


> Update on my tortoise. We had a visit with the vet yesterday. She cleaned some gunk that was trapped under the eyelid and causing the problems. She wasn’t sure what the gunk was but it is not infection. I have new eye drops but just cleaning out lid made a huge difference. She has gained a couple of grams and the vet said she looked nice and hydrated. She was pleased there are no additional signs of gout. The leg looks about the same but it is a long process and we are to continue with the gout meds. Sweet potatoes were a hit but not the cherries or plantains. I have bananas and squash to try next and she is good with the red and green leaf lettuce. We’ve been having great weather so back outside for some more sunshine. She’s been getting in her water dish outside on her own and drinking and soaking.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for the great advice and support.


What about her leg? did they say what caused the swelling in her leg?


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