# Flippers, turtle $$ hound-dogs



## Kapidolo Farms (Jul 22, 2015)

Hey all, at the recent San Diego Reptile Super Show I had a chance to speak with a few people about (mostly just state my dislike of) flippers. Flippers (like in Real Estate) are the people who are marketers of the animals we like. They may have a running inventory in their minds of what people want and at about what price that customer will pay, or they are just 'gambling' they can sell it for more.

They scan every booth for 'deals' not because they want to have a healthy good looking animal as a pet or for a breeding interest, but because they know in a few days that tortoise will be on it's way to their customer for some $$ more. I have seen this same thing happen on Kingsnake, Fauna, CL, and even at turtle club meetings.

There is much good and bad that can come from this. I have experienced both.

If you known what I'm talking about, you 'get it' please offer your experience (that real thing that has happened to you, not your speculation). Protect names as you see fit. If there is some interest in this topic (not by likes or "tell us" responses) by experiences, as defined, I'll flesh out some of what I have experienced.


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## G-stars (Jul 22, 2015)

I know of a guy who does this. Don't know him personally but I've had contact with him. I called him out on it once and he just said it's what everyone does because it's business.


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## Tom (Jul 22, 2015)

I have no interest in dealing with this sort of person, so I don't have any personal experience to share.

What really irritates me about this practice are the people who buy up any hatchling they can find from any breeder they can reach and then sell the babies, knowing full well they were not started right. The thousands of people who buy these ticking time bomb babies every year usually end up thinking tortoise babies are too delicate or that they didn't care for the new baby correctly. Sad.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jul 22, 2015)

Okay, glad to see interest with this topic.

Pros: some people are much better connected and can often find a sex/species/size I hope to find. That's all the pros I have.

Cons: No history on the animal, where it's been, how it has been cared for, what medical history it might have, the race,subspecies, or linage, and not only not having this information, but getting falsehoods to answer these questions.

The $$, well if it's an animal I find I want (I really don't NEED any) is okay.

Actual anecdotes after the next bit or workplace tasking is done.


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## Tom (Jul 22, 2015)

On a philosophical level, I have no problem with people making money. Buy low, sell high. Using one's skills and knowledge of a market to get ahead is just good business.

My problem is that in too many of these cases the welfare of the animal in question is not taken into account. Or these are substandard animals from substandard sources, and the sellers are looking to dupe some hapless noob into parting with their money. I have no problem with people buying, selling or trading animals, as long as the animals health and well being is taken into account and as long as shady people aren't doing shady things associated with the transaction. Like selling mutts for top dollar as SA leopards, for example. Nothing wrong with a leopard of mixed lineage. It's still a cool tortoise and worth money. Its just not cool to offer it for sale as something that it isn't.


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## tortadise (Jul 22, 2015)

Will said:


> Okay, glad to see interest with this topic.
> 
> Pros: some people are much better connected and can often find a sex/species/size I hope to find. That's all the pros I have.
> 
> ...


Your pros and cons are just like mine. Sometimes I have found that these "lovely" flippers will make up details just to fortify the sale being completed. I have had numerous (4-5 purchases)dealings with flippers. The last and final straw was when I was asked to provide more funds as another "party" had offered more. The original price I offered was 3 times the amount the person purchased for. Well yeah that animal ended up expiring. I think most flippers are so short termed because the community looks out for one another in most cases. At least with high end and more rare or uncommon specimens or species.

I have found that when I elevated my standards of who I purchase from a huge sigh of relief occurred. Not having sickly animals, and or the gamble of having sickly animals(this is another reason why quarantine is a good thing for large collections).

Anyways blah blah. I don't like them either. I've dealt with them. Have had some good dealings on a few deals, and some very bad ones too.


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## tortadise (Jul 22, 2015)

Tom said:


> On a philosophical level, I have no problem with people making money. Buy low, sell high. Using one's skills and knowledge of a market to get ahead is just good business.
> 
> My problem is that in too many of these cases the welfare of the animal in question is not taken into account. Or these are substandard animals from substandard sources, and the sellers are looking to dupe some hapless noob into parting with their money. I have no problem with people buying, selling or trading animals, as long as the animals health and well being is taken into account and as long as shady people aren't doing shady things associated with the transaction. Like selling mutts for top dollar as SA leopards, for example. Nothing wrong with a leopard of mixed lineage. It's still a cool tortoise and worth money. Its just not cool to offer it for sale as something that it isn't.


Entirely agree. In many times I have forwarded animals to colleges or friends that I needed(like a female to be with a male) but lacked funds for it. Never had in any case thought to pad the sale and make a quick buck at all. Again I'll use the word community. I feel if I treat others in this hobby with dignity and respect and look out for what they are trying to seek. I too one day will receive the same treatment by another.


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## G-stars (Jul 22, 2015)

I personally don't really like the business aspect of it. The buy low and sell high that flippers do. I don't think animals should be treated the same way as material stuff. I care too much about the animals health and well being to do this. 

It's a different story when someone acquires an animal then decides to sell later on for whatever reason. But many times flippers sell a week after purchasing the animal just for a quick profit. Where's the animals well being in that?


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jul 22, 2015)

At the show, a flipper bought some super rare tortoises. This is why:

Someone knowingly sold the flipper the rare tortoises as they were not doing well with them. The flipper sold them to a potential life time owner. One died. The flipper seeing some of the same super rare species at the show for about half of what they know they could sell them at, bought them, got one to the potential life time owner and will sell the others at the much elevated price.

So the initial seller, the one who sold them to the flipper, was dumping animals they couldn't handle (based on results). The flipper turned them as fast as possible. The potential long term owner who has super rare animals likely does not know their history.


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## Tom (Jul 22, 2015)

Will said:


> At the show, a flipper bought some super rare tortoises. This is why:
> 
> Someone knowingly sold the flipper the rare tortoises as they were not doing well with them. The flipper sold them to a potential life time owner. One died. The flipper seeing some of the same super rare species at the show for about half of what they know they could sell them at, bought them, got one to the potential life time owner and will sell the others at the much elevated price.
> 
> So the initial seller, the one who sold them to the flipper, was dumping animals they couldn't handle (based on results). The flipper turned them as fast as possible. The potential long term owner who has super rare animals likely does not know their history.



How did the seller represent these animals and him/herself?
Why did the buyer take such a risk without knowing anything about the tortoises or the seller?

If the seller said, "Hey, I just bought these and want to re-sell them as is..." then I have no problem with this transaction.
If the buyer didn't ask any questions, or didn't ask the right questions, or didn't care, then I don't have a problem with this transaction.

If the seller misrepresented anything, or if the buyer was lied to, then I would have a problem with this transaction. I would also have a problem with a buyer dealing in rare specimens that has no idea what he/she is doing or what questions to ask.


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## G-stars (Jul 22, 2015)

What about the added stress to the animals??? The owner selling the animals to the flipper said they weren't doing good. So these poor animals have to adjust to a new environment for a week or however long it takes the flipper to sell them. Then they have to endure possibly being shipped, then try to readjust to a new environment again. 

This is probably another factor why animals sold by flippers perish. 

Sorry @Tom but I'm not ok with those two things. Because we also have to think about the animals health. Not just whether someone got the correct info or paid 2-3x as much as what the flipper got them for.


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## Tom (Jul 22, 2015)

G-stars said:


> What about the added stress to the animals??? The owner selling the animals to the flipper said they weren't doing good. So these poor animals have to adjust to a new environment for a week or however long it takes the flipper to sell them. Then they have to endure possibly being shipped, then try to readjust to a new environment again.
> 
> This is probably another factor why animals sold by flippers perish.
> 
> Sorry @Tom but I'm not ok with those two things. Because we also have to think about the animals health. Not just whether someone got the correct info or paid 2-3x as much as what the flipper got them for.



You make a good point. As a buyer, this would make me not partake in this transaction.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jul 23, 2015)

Without a doubt in my mind, it is even worse than the $$ dogs on the wild collected side of things. The animals, their genetic package - the captive diversity of genes they represent are lost. And people who represent as ethical have a reputation that simply put, will never be in good standing again.

I ended up with a small individual of a different super rare species that seems to attract flippers, there is impending ESA listing with the corresponding reduced ease of movement between states, low reproduction, very precise husbandry needs, etc. That little tortoise (under 100 grams) had a >33% weight loss between the breeder who sold it, and when it landed in my collection. The breeder did well with the tortoise, sold to someone who "talks" quality care and even has posted in venues that they ARE NOT a flipper (other words used). Then panicked at the (must have noticed) weight loss, they tried desperately to sell to one person (maybe among many), who passed the deal onto me. I bit, got the animal, and sorted out the weight loss. The first flipper was either grossly unobservant or perpetrated a falsehood ( that's the dichotomy of it), the second flipper had no stake in it other than to maybe offer what they may have thought was a good deal they couldn't afford (at best) or knowingly participated (at worst) or just carried forward inattentiveness and MAYBE made a few $$ on the deal. Because I was able to back track the sales (I am a research scientists after all) I sorted this out. I'll never do business with either again. Oh, and the tortoise had a PIT tag, so there is more than a reasonable idea it had only been one animal alone the route.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jul 23, 2015)

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=538978

They just can't help themselves, these two(exact animals)bred in 'sunny' California by SLO Gecko.com are now, not even a week later, being offered at a high mark-up. The Reptile super show price was $250, now here they are at $400. WTF?. It's not dishonest in the strictest sense, and what will be told to a buyer of the history of the animal may be on the up and up. I can only hope so.

"We are cutting back" my ath, we are buying to sell at a huge markup, we are flippers.


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## G-stars (Jul 23, 2015)

Very interesting. "Cutting back" huh.


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## Tom (Jul 23, 2015)

Will said:


> http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=538978
> 
> They just can't help themselves, these two(exact animals)bred in 'sunny' California by SLO Gecko.com are now, not even a week later, being offered at a high mark-up. The Reptile super show price was $250, now here they are at $400. WTF?. It's not dishonest in the strictest sense, and what will be told to a buyer of the history of the animal may be on the up and up. I can only hope so.
> 
> "We are cutting back" my ath, we are buying to sell at a huge markup, we are flippers.



I believe you handled that brilliantly Will.


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