# Activity/food search as a component of good care



## Kapidolo Farms (May 27, 2017)

Lots of tortoises breeders tell me give them (tortoises) food as much as they need/want. Lots of breeder live in apartments and give them indoor enclosure as I do. If they have enough food they won't have activity. Even outdoor garden enclosure should give food till full? I don't think people feed dog 'till very full.

@RedFire and I exchange text and this question struck me as a really good one, deserving a wider range of response than I would give. 

This is split between two matters,1) might be excercise, and 2) might be the enrichment associated with food quests.

I see the occasional posts that have drilled down on these matters. but as single POV. Do we deny our tortoises some sort of self actualization by keeping them well fed? 

I have my own ideas, they are not well articulated to respond yet. I think this is an interesting thing to ponder and there well may not be a good or best answer. But now RedFire has me thinking about this.

@bouaboua can you put this on the "Chinese TFO"?


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## RedFire (May 27, 2017)

Will, thank you for concerning this. It's very agree with this feed way and most Chinese breeder did in China.


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## Tom (May 27, 2017)

I think I'm understanding the question…

My answer would involve the comparison animal that @RedFire gave, the dog. No we don't feed our dogs until they are full. Dogs are carnivores. Arguably omnivores. Dogs will gain weight and become obese with too much food. So will most other carnivorous and omnivorous mammals. I'm reminded of a group of raccoons that I used to train. And my baboon. Of course a cat of any species, my hawk, even rats. But these animals are all very different, digestively speaking, than an ectothermic herbivorous reptile.

I would never advocate that anyone free feed any of the above animals. But a tortoise is a different matter. Most strict herbivores would be a different matter. I knew a guy that tried to work a deer through food drive once. He was a pretty stupid guy all around, but I mention it because it didn't go well. Same with rabbits. Food drive (for training purposes…) doesn't really work on them the way it does with other animals. If we feed my camel too much alfalfa, we can get her to gain weight, but if we reduce the ratio and bump it up the level of grass hay instead, she'll lose weight or hold steady.

My recommendation for tortoises has always come with certain qualifications: Tortoises should be housed correctly and free fed as much of the _right_ foods as they want.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (May 27, 2017)

I agree with Tom ! But I keep all my torts outside if possible. And in the summer it can get 117 degrees or more and the Or some will stop eating . Witch means the are living on their resources if I've feed them plenty of food . And then I got to feed them all they will cause soon it's winter and they will stop eating and live on their resources again . 
That's why I don't understand how you get obeast torts cause if you think it's getting fat let it hibnate !


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## RedFire (May 27, 2017)

Thank your concerning,Tom. I agree with your animal comparison say, tortoises are different to mammals, especially on the digestively. I think tortoises have less digestively than these mammals, right? So, tortoises need control eating food cause of their slow digestively. 
If they have full whey they have activity? In nature, tortoises have activity because they were hungry, it is a major reason usually. So, I think I can use their nature let them have more activity every day. 
I made plans for them:1.give them 60-90% full once a day depends on that day. 2.40-50% full twice a day,in the morning and afternoon.


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## RedFire (May 27, 2017)

Oh, &Tom, you haven't said why give tortoises full feed, just not mammal?


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## bouaboua (May 28, 2017)

RedFire said:


> Oh, &Tom, you haven't said why give tortoises full feed, just not mammal?



红火你好：
I do believe Tom already give you the key "criteria" or so call the "reason" you are looking for why he feed his tortoise daily till full?

At the very last part of Tom's reply, he said: [My recommendation for tortoises has always come with certain qualifications: Tortoises *should be housed correctly* and free fed as much of the _right_ foods as they want.]

So, I will be looking at my tortoise enclosure first, no matter it is a indoor or outdoor one. If your sulcata hatchling are housed in a 60CM X 120 CM (or smaller) aquarium type of enclosure, without visual/sight barrier or proper setup, and the sulcata are fed daily till full, a "obese" animal, in tortoise style, are obvious. Majority of our enclosure are considerably "smaller" compared with those tortoise enthusiasts oversea, so in my opinion, a controlled feeding schedule are necessary. 

@Will Yes. I will do so.


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## RedFire (May 28, 2017)

Thank you all very much who care of. @bouaboua I know @Tom in the last part, I mean just have correct space and not mammals they should have full? 
Important:I am not here for against someone, but looking for the deeply truth with very sincerity for a breeder who have very interesting in tortoises. (^_^)
In the last, I appreciate all above you,especially @Will post this thread.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (May 28, 2017)

I feel this was a good talk and I hope the people that say feed every other day , read it also ! Thank you !


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## mark1 (May 28, 2017)

I would say it depends what they're eating , the caloric and nutrient density of it .......... something grazing on nutrient sparse foods i'd imagine needs a lot of it , and would spend most of it's day eating , or looking for food ...... something eating nutrient and calorically dense food will need much less of it , they maybe wired to eat all day , but to eat this nutrient calorically dense food would be unnatural and unhealthy ..... I've seen turtles and tortoises so fat they couldn't withdraw into their shells ........ dogs have evolved to gorge themselves , their stomachs can hold an enormous amount of food relative to their size , in captivity we feed them nutrient and calorically dense food/kibble , if they eat that stuff until full it'd be natural but pretty unhealthy for them ...... I do believe foraging for food is psychologically good for animals and I think it prevents neurotic behavior ............


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## RedFire (May 28, 2017)

@mark1 you said the unhealthy food, is that pellets food?


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## Markw84 (May 28, 2017)

The way I see it, the biggest difference to consider is that tortoises / turtles do not gain fat as mammals do. When people refer to gaining fat stores for winter - that is a mammalian issue. Mammals do live off fat reserves when hibernating and need them to carry them through periods of little food availability. Chelonians normally rely on glycogen stores in blood and tissues to provide the little energy they need during times of hibernation/brumation/aestivation. That is why a mammal will get obese when its body store too much fat in preparation for possible hard times. Mammals loose considerable weight, then during a long winter hibernation. Chelonians do not do that. The little weight loss they may have is water loss, not fat loss, as they are using up available glycogen stores, not consuming fat. The added glycogen, and even slightly lower water content, also adds value as a bit of an "antifreeze" as well protecting them from freezing!

So the body and metabolism of chelonians is quite different than mammals in regard to its design, ability, and need to store fat. They just aren't built that way!


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## Tom (May 28, 2017)

RedFire said:


> Oh, &Tom, you haven't said why give tortoises full feed, just not mammal?



Mammal and carnivore diets work on quality. Tortoise, elephant and horse diets work on quantity. The foods these last three animals eat are low in nutrient density and/or difficult to digest. Where a house cat or hawk can swallow a mouse and get a lot of good usable energy from that relatively small sized meal, a similarly sized tortoise would have to eat 10 times or more that volume of grasses and weeds to get them same energy value. These types of herbivorous animals need to ingest massive volumes of food to be able to extract enough nutrition to function and grow.

And what @Markw84 said too...


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## Pearly (May 28, 2017)

Very interesting read here Guys! I'm learning so much from you! Thank you for that! Have really nothing to contribute here, at least nothing of any scientific value, but can tell you what many middle aged women-animal lovers-keepers do in keeping their pets: WE FEED!!!! Yes! We feed our families and our animals. It's a part of an inherent intuitive need to nurture that unless we've done some work to suppress, is a big part of who we are. I am NOT speaking for ALL women, just some-many. We feed our children, our husbands, our ailing elderly grandparents and parents and we feed our animals. We love to FEED but seriously, in my own limited to only pet keeping experience, I have never limited amount of food in my house. My dog/cats have always had bowl with dry food ad lib next to their water fountain or bowl, my brief encounter with small aquatics (fish/inverts) always very well fed which in my case may have helped with tank aggression (never had any aggression problems), and now my pet grand-tortoises (which I'm fostering for my 12 yr old daughter for probably the rest of my life, and she then gets them back in my will). My juvy torts always get more food than they can consume. If between feedings they clean up their "slate" (feeding tile) I increase their portions. They are still growing. I was going to separate them in their first year after finding this forum, but they are still together and no signs of aggression as of yet. Most of my animal keeping has been with cats which I know doesn't come even close to Tom's knowledge and expertise with mammals but here is what I have done/seen over the past 24 yrs. in multiple cat household, where they all have access to food 24/7 there has been one fat cat (out of 5) who btw was the cutest and sweetest ever, always jovial and happy. I keep pets probably in a very simplistic way. I keep them because they make me happy, I do all I can to learn how to properly care for them and take caring for them very seriously because they depend on me doing the right thing for them and my mistakes may cost them their health or even life so I spare no time/resources to make sure they have what they need. I know one may argue that overfeeding equals "loving them to their death" but I have yet to have bad outcomes, and I think that when animals are gradually getting used to food being provided for them and feel secure about it, where their hunger is just that - HUNGER and not FAMIN when every cell of their body desires nothing more than food, they don't typically overeat. They eat enough to satisfy their needs and walk away knowing there will be more later. Actually I don't know enough about animals to tell if they make conscious decisions based on prior experience. I think they do, but I always tend to see my animals as much greater beings because I love them so much. Anyway, thank you for the topic. Very interesting. Great to learn what everyone thinks


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## Pearly (May 28, 2017)

As for the activity component in foraging for food, I still see my torts marching around their garden in search for some more tasty morsels like a little snail or such but again, this is only MINE very limited experience


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## mark1 (May 28, 2017)

RedFire said:


> @mark1 you said the unhealthy food, is that pellets food?



I think good quality commercial foods have a lot of science behind them and should be a part of your animals diet , at least any I've had .......... I think turtles and tortoises store fat like most wild animals , turtles carry a higher percent of body fat than tortoises , I would guess diet would account for that , diet having evolved to suit the environment they live in .... I don't know of any northern species of turtle that doesn't eat meat as a substantial part of their diet ...... turtles carry more fat than a deer , they carry the most fat in august , the least in the spring after hibernating , they absolutely need much less stored fat than a hibernating mammal , as their metabolism in winter is like 10x(I don't remember exactly , but it's enormously less) slower than a mammals ....... they are a chemical wonder in their ability to metabolize fat in anaerobic environments and not become acidic ... I've read of gopher tortoises carrying 13% fat ,i'd be interested at the time of year , i'd also wonder what is the fat content of a northern hermans tortoise , compared to species living on the equator , although estivating may require even larger fat stores , which i'd imagine would be tough to get eating grass , I don't know , just a thought ...... sea turtles carry enormous amounts of fat ......... obese reptiles die from the effects of fatty liver , and I believe fat kills many by causing kidney failure also .......... not that I think free feeding for a tortoise will lead to an obese tortoise , I think like tom said , their food is not that nutritious ..... but I do know some turtles would eat to an unhealthy degree ......


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## RedFire (May 28, 2017)

Thanks guys, @Markw84 @Tom @Pearly, I knew how's working on them. It's big in and few gain and big out. Appreciate for you sharing your knowledge and experience sincerity.


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## RedFire (May 28, 2017)

@mark1 learnt,thanks.


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## Big Charlie (May 29, 2017)

Pearly said:


> Very interesting read here Guys! I'm learning so much from you! Thank you for that! Have really nothing to contribute here, at least nothing of any scientific value, but can tell you what many middle aged women-animal lovers-keepers do in keeping their pets: WE FEED!!!! Yes! We feed our families and our animals. It's a part of an inherent intuitive need to nurture that unless we've done some work to suppress, is a big part of who we are. I am NOT speaking for ALL women, just some-many. We feed our children, our husbands, our ailing elderly grandparents and parents and we feed our animals. We love to FEED but seriously, in my own limited to only pet keeping experience, I have never limited amount of food in my house. My dog/cats have always had bowl with dry food ad lib next to their water fountain or bowl, my brief encounter with small aquatics (fish/inverts) always very well fed which in my case may have helped with tank aggression (never had any aggression problems), and now my pet grand-tortoises (which I'm fostering for my 12 yr old daughter for probably the rest of my life, and she then gets them back in my will). My juvy torts always get more food than they can consume. If between feedings they clean up their "slate" (feeding tile) I increase their portions. They are still growing. I was going to separate them in their first year after finding this forum, but they are still together and no signs of aggression as of yet. Most of my animal keeping has been with cats which I know doesn't come even close to Tom's knowledge and expertise with mammals but here is what I have done/seen over the past 24 yrs. in multiple cat household, where they all have access to food 24/7 there has been one fat cat (out of 5) who btw was the cutest and sweetest ever, always jovial and happy. I keep pets probably in a very simplistic way. I keep them because they make me happy, I do all I can to learn how to properly care for them and take caring for them very seriously because they depend on me doing the right thing for them and my mistakes may cost them their health or even life so I spare no time/resources to make sure they have what they need. I know one may argue that overfeeding equals "loving them to their death" but I have yet to have bad outcomes, and I think that when animals are gradually getting used to food being provided for them and feel secure about it, where their hunger is just that - HUNGER and not FAMIN when every cell of their body desires nothing more than food, they don't typically overeat. They eat enough to satisfy their needs and walk away knowing there will be more later. Actually I don't know enough about animals to tell if they make conscious decisions based on prior experience. I think they do, but I always tend to see my animals as much greater beings because I love them so much. Anyway, thank you for the topic. Very interesting. Great to learn what everyone thinks


Most people "free feed" themselves and only a percentage end up obese. I would imagine the same is true with your pets.

My tortoise gets a lot of exercise on his own, and not because he is searching for food. He spends a lot of time pacing in an area where nothing grows, while there is plenty to eat in the rest of the yard. My dog was less likely to exercise on his own. He needed something to stimulate him, like a cat to chase, or someone to play with.


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## mark1 (May 29, 2017)

I don't believe an animal expends energy without a purpose , exercise not being one of these purposes .... i'd think evolution has gotten rid of the ones who waste energy ...............pacing is a common behavior in captive animals , you won't see it in nature ........ I've found hunger leads to diet diversity ........ again not saying a tortoise that is eating a natural diet should not have unlimited access to food , I don't believe their natural diet is very nutritious or high in calories ..... I've seen obese snapping turtles , blanding's turtles , eastern box turtles , mud and musk turtles , the only obese tortoise I've seen was a horsefield , being a cold weather tortoise perhaps they are more prone to store fat ?


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## Kapidolo Farms (May 29, 2017)

Yeah this is all good reasoning on the difference between kinds of diets and metabolism that goes with a tortoises versus a dog, versus a deer etc.

I think, maybe wrong on this, but what about the enrichment an outdoor tortoise that grazes (an exercise) gets that an equal amount and type of foods an indoor tortoise does not get. 

I have spent some time watching some outdoor radiated and they walk about a rather large enclosure eating some of this and some of that, like the fun some people might get from shopping in a mall, while (to run with the metaphor) the inside enclosure tortoises gets everything via Amazon, and does not 'get-out' much.

So somewhat beyond actual food quality or quantity, maybe even the exercise, do those outdoor tortoises have "fun" picking and choosing what they eat. Does it qualify as enrichment? 

I tend to think of tortoises more like automatons and that they don't care some much about this kind of thing. But the recent tortoise watching in friends yard with the radiated got me thinking about this and RedFire's question popped up.

Radiated are pretty fearless and don't seem to care if your in their enclosure, they also didn't come running over to me like I'm the monkey dropping food for them. They just went about their business like I was not there. 

I feed most all the tortoises I have everyday. When I skip a day it's for my need to move the enclosure projects ahead, or work on the honeydo list. I see they will slacken off eating at about four or five days in a row of an overabundance, they still eat but less until that fast day, followed by a clean the food tile off eating day. The Pancakes are the most difficult to see what's happening as each individual cycles on their own for gorging or low intake days. The day after a fast day for them, and the tile is always picked clean.


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## Tom (May 29, 2017)

Big Charlie said:


> Most people "free feed" themselves and only a percentage end up obese. I would imagine the same is true with your pets.



Man is this true for me. I'm a self free feeder. I have to adjust my activity level as needed, because I have a lot of trouble adjusting the food level lower...


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## Tom (May 29, 2017)

mark1 said:


> I don't believe an animal expends energy without a purpose , exercise not being one of these purposes .... i'd think evolution has gotten rid of the ones who waste energy ...............pacing is a common behavior in captive animals , you won't see it in nature ........



I saw one study that charted how many miles a bunch of captive wolves covered while pacing in their large enclosures. It was the same distance a wild wolf would cover out in the world.


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## Anyfoot (May 29, 2017)

Our redfoot tortoises are active constantly if we only feed weeds and flowers. Feed fruit and they have the fill and go hold up for that day. Let them gorge on animal protein (chicks) and they will go hold up for a few days, I've had some 3 and 4 days without eating, we feed every day.
Also I've noticed if we feed fruit it takes a couple of days for the runnier poop to come through, it takes 4 to 5 days for the protein (chicks) to come through.
When we feed protein I know the day after the foliage will be wasted.
If we throw fruit or protein into the outdoor enclosure they gorge on it then go dig in. If we don't throw fruit in they spend hours walking about and having a chomp on anything that's foliage.
So from what I've seen it depends on what they eat as to whether they should be fed every day. I know I'm wasting my time feeding the day after a protein feed.
I used to worry about not seeing some of them for days until I read in a book that they will go hold up for days after gorging on carrion. Makes sense really. 
They are getting the exercise in search of filling the stomach, whether it be a 30 minute gorge on protein or a 4 hr gorge picking at weeds and flowers.


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## mark1 (May 29, 2017)

Tom said:


> I saw one study that charted how many miles a bunch of captive wolves covered while pacing in their large enclosures. It was the same distance a wild wolf would cover out in the world.


I don't doubt it Tom , I've watched them , it doesn't take long to see the repetitive movements ...... I've suggested to the keepers they should keep rabbits in the enclosure , apparently it's not something they want the public to possibly see ......... their miles are driven by neurosis , wild wolves by survival , the distances wild wolves travel is a product of prey density ......... my dogs thoroughly enjoy a good woodpile , or some underbrush , they find it therapeutic ...... I would add the range of a turtle or tortoises territory is a product of available resources .....


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## counting (May 29, 2017)

So when I first joined here I asked a question about tortoise enrichment. And I plan on trying since my tortoise will be largely indoors.

Anyway:
Finding ways to encourage engagement and stimulation for the animal. Most animals are food motivated. Seeking food and water, shelter, a mate, is their primary focus(in that order).for reptiles add in heat regulation.A lot of people responded to my question with the reponse iirc, that a diverse and interesting enclosure is enough.
I plan on using treat balls (such as the type for cats and dogs)stuffed with green stuffs for my tort to push around and feed from. Hide preferred foods or to some degree spread them out to simulate foraging such as they would get in the wild.
Most herbivores are designed to walk fair distances and eat small amounts near constantly. Not a large bulk of easily available food which doesn't require effort to obtain.


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## Kapidolo Farms (May 30, 2017)

counting said:


> So when I first joined here I asked a question about tortoise enrichment. And I plan on trying since my tortoise will be largely indoors.
> 
> Anyway:
> Finding ways to encourage engagement and stimulation for the animal. Most animals are food motivated. Seeking food and water, shelter, a mate, is their primary focus(in that order).for reptiles add in heat regulation.A lot of people responded to my question with the reponse iirc, that a diverse and interesting enclosure is enough.
> ...




It depends on the specific species I think. Gopher tortoises can be found by the grazed 'skirt' of grass near the otherwise hidden burrow entrance. I got to where I could find wild leopards quickly just by looking for the shrub with the accumulations of tortoise poop, and then scan out a few hundred feet and find them. 

Others do seem to have a a large area they wander. Box turtles ( I know not really a tortoise) also have small ranges and can be found by their feeding behaviors as well.

I have scattered the pancakes' food about their enclosure and they will eat most of it, especially after a fast day. 

I think this is the direction @RedFire was going??


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## Kenno (May 30, 2017)

In response to the concept of wasting energy, my torts definitely engage in playful behavior at times. One likes to climb up a slanted board and slide back down, another makes an obstacle course out of climbing through chair legs and wooden braces, and another just loves to tangle in and pull against a coiled hose. He goes back and forth through it. They can do this for hours. There is no food hunting or search for escape involved. They can free feed on grass and weeds in my yard, including Sonoran weeds from special seed mixes.


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## Big Charlie (May 30, 2017)

Kenno said:


> In response to the concept of wasting energy, my torts definitely engage in playful behavior at times. One likes to climb up a slanted board and slide back down, another makes an obstacle course out of climbing through chair legs and wooden braces, and another just loves to tangle in and pull against a coiled hose. He goes back and forth through it. They can do this for hours. There is no food hunting or search for escape involved. They can free feed on grass and weeds in my yard, including Sonoran weeds from special seed mixes.


I agree. I don't think Charlie's pacing has anything to do with trying to escape. When he comes up on the patio, he looks like he is attempting an obstacle course as well. He tries to maneuver in the tightest spaces. Even when he is pacing, he doesn't appear agitated. I think he is just patrolling his territory. He mostly does it on one side of our yard, probably because there is a large wall there and his path continues into a narrow side yard where nothing grows so there is nothing to do but walk back the way he came. The rest of the yard is more open.


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## RedFire (May 31, 2017)

@Will I think I can understand the most of these replies. They gave these point:1.tortoises not like mammals, they gain little from eating. 2.some species need store nutrition for hibernation. 3.they don't eat everything they can eat in big enclosure, they choose which they prefer to and they got activity. 4.In indoor enclosure should give blocks and diverse landscape, it's good for activity. 

My caring,only caring is how to breed tortoises better in indoor enclosure as best as I can. There is no plant growing, because it eaten by tortoises before grow up, so they won't have food choice, just only throw food into enclosure. So, I have to give less food and make them activity and give less food. 

And the store nutrition for preparing hibernation speaking, they don't always store for that, they have wake up, normal living and store steps before hibernation. 

Indoor enclosure, we can give blocks and diverse landscape increase their activity, but they are not depend on this, searching food I think it's the first motive. 

Not just hungry them, make them have hungry time.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jun 2, 2017)

RedFire said:


> @Will I think I can understand the most of these replies. They gave these point:1.tortoises not like mammals, they gain little from eating. 2.some species need store nutrition for hibernation. 3.they don't eat everything they can eat in big enclosure, they choose which they prefer to and they got activity. 4.In indoor enclosure should give blocks and diverse landscape, it's good for activity.
> 
> My caring,only caring is how to breed tortoises better in indoor enclosure as best as I can. There is no plant growing, because it eaten by tortoises before grow up, so they won't have food choice, just only throw food into enclosure. So, I have to give less food and make them activity and give less food.
> 
> ...




Something that can be done inside to help with stimulation is to have food offered in only one place at a time, but not the same place every time.

Three places for food, but fed only at one place each time. That way they still have to do some search.


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