# Why is Mazuri so popular, I don't get it.



## Kim&Tim (Jun 6, 2020)

Why is mazuri so popular? Tbh, I don't get it. The way to read an ingredients list is, the ingredient mentioned first, is what the product contains most of. Then the seccond etc etc. 


I have a horse and horses and herbivore tortoises are very similar when it comes to feeding. You see the same type of stuff in horsefeed, super popular but ingredients wise very mediocre. 
My horse has a serious chronic illness and feeding certain ingredients like corn, molasses, soy/hulls etc make it worse. So a long time ago (horse is 24 now) I had to do some serious research in horsefood and ingredients.


To me the ingredients are not great. Mazuri LS is a bit better because it at least contains timothy hay as the biggest ingredient, but still, mediocre in my opnion. Mazuri TD's biggest ingredient is soybean hulls, so the shell of a soybean? then corn, soymeal, wheat midds, molasses (=sugar/syrup) etc.
To me that is not great. 


Sure it contains fiber, quite low protein. Cat and dog hair also contains lots of fiber? or chicken feathers. I think they both contain very low quality ingredients, 1 more than the other. 


My horse, the previous tort (past away in his 90's), and my current tort, all eat the same stuff: Pre Alpin. The company is German (I'm Dutch, so their neighbor?) and they make natural horse, rodents, tortoise and other livestock foods. 
The horse/tortoise one is exactly the same:meadow grasses, herbs, flowers, weeds from the Alps. Zoomed tortoise grasslands comes the closest to Pre Alpin I think. Yes the majority of my horses diet is hay/grass/weeds and the torts weeds/leafy greens etc, but the Pre Alpin is a nice completion of the diet. 


You see this in alot of tortoise foods. I looked at Komodo cucumber for instance: zero cucumber and all soy/corn/wheat. Interesting?


Mazuri tortoise diet:
Ground soybean hulls, ground corn, dehulled soybean meal, ground oats, wheat middlings, cane molasses, dehydrated alfalfa meal, wheat germ, dicalcium phosphate, soybean oil, brewers dried yeast, calcium carbonate, salt, dl-methionine, choline chloride, pyridoxine hydrochloride, d-alpha tocopheryl acetate (form of vitamin E), biotin, cholecalciferol, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K), calcium pantothenate, vitamin A acetate, folic acid, riboflavin, preserved with mixed tocopherols, rosemary extract, nicotinic acid, vitamin B12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, citric acid, l-lysine, manganous oxide, zinc oxide, ferrous carbonate, copper sulfate, zinc sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite, cobalt carbonate.


Mazuri LS:
Ground Timothy Hay, Ground Soybean Hulls, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Oat Hulls, Wheat Middlings, Cane Molasses, Dried Apple Pomace, Ground Flaxseed, Carrageenan, Ground Oats, Rice Flour, Wheat Germ, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Sucrose, Fructose, Artificial Flavors, Soybean Oil, Potassium Chloride, Brewers Dried Yeast, Salt, L-Lysine, Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product, d-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate, Dried Bifidobacterium thermophilum Fermentation Product, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Biotin, Yucca schidigera Extract, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K), Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid, Manganous Oxide, Riboflavin Supplement, Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Carbonate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Rosemary Extract, Carotene, Citric Acid (a Preservative), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Nicotinic Acid, Copper Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite Cobalt Carbonate.


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## Toddrickfl1 (Jun 6, 2020)

Everybody says this. The ingredients don't look the best, but you get great results feeding it. Tortoises love it too. I use it because one of my torts is real picky and won't eat lots of good food items. When I dampen a little Mazuri and mix it in his food he will eat it all, including the stuff he won't normally. So I can get a wide variety of healthy foods in him with ease. So even if the Mazuri has a few things that aren't great, I'm getting a him to eat a lot of other stuff that is, that he normally wouldn't.


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## Kim&Tim (Jun 6, 2020)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> Everybody says this. The ingredients don't look the best, but you get great results feeding it. Tortoises love it too. I use it because one of my torts is real picky and won't eat lots of good food items. When I dampen a little Mazuri and mix it in his food he will eat it all, including the stuff he won't normally. So I can get a wide variety of healthy foods in him with ease. So even if the Mazuri has a few things that aren't great, I'm getting a him to eat a lot of other stuff that is, that he normally wouldn't.


Yeah I get that.


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## KhairulTort (Jun 6, 2020)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> Everybody says this. The ingredients don't look the best, but you get great results feeding it. Tortoises love it too. I use it because one of my torts is real picky and won't eat lots of good food items. When I dampen a little Mazuri and mix it in his food he will eat it all, including the stuff he won't normally. So I can get a wide variety of healthy foods in him with ease. So even if the Mazuri has a few things that aren't great, I'm getting a him to eat a lot of other stuff that is, that he normally wouldn't.


Why do you think your tortoise is so picky? Maybe they’ve discovered the secret to tortoise MSG somewhere in there. My tortoise seems to love his fresh greens much more than the grass and it took a few weeks of coaxing and mixing to get him to eat the grass that’s good for him so I wonder if it’s a digestibility thing. But I’d love to know what kind of tastebuds they have.


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## KhairulTort (Jun 6, 2020)

Kim&Tim said:


> Why is mazuri so popular? Tbh, I don't get it. The way to read an ingredients list is, the ingredient mentioned first, is what the product contains most of. Then the seccond etc etc.
> 
> 
> I have a horse and horses and herbivore tortoises are very similar when it comes to feeding. You see the same type of stuff in horsefeed, super popular but ingredients wise very mediocre.
> ...


That is a whole lot of stuff for a little pellet. ??? Might as well just feed grass I reckon.

Random thought. Does a tortoise that has had less of a weed and grass diet have difficulty digesting higher fiver foods if they’re switched over?
Seems like my tortoises poop is just poorly digested grass that comes apart in the soaking tray and stinks. Do tortoises have chambered stomachs like grazing animals?


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## KhairulTort (Jun 6, 2020)

KhairulTort said:


> That is a whole lot of stuff for a little pellet. ??? Might as well just feed grass I reckon.
> 
> Random thought. Does a tortoise that has had less of a weed and grass diet have difficulty digesting higher fiver foods if they’re switched over?
> Seems like my tortoises poop is just poorly digested grass that comes apart in the soaking tray and stinks. Do tortoises have chambered stomachs like grazing animals?


I’m not implying there’s something wrong with my tortoise. I just thought it might be more.... well... poop like


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## Kim&Tim (Jun 6, 2020)

KhairulTort said:


> Why do you think your tortoise is so picky? Maybe they’ve discovered the secret to tortoise MSG somewhere in there. My tortoise seems to love his fresh greens much more than the grass and it took a few weeks of coaxing and mixing to get him to eat the grass that’s good for him so I wonder if it’s a digestibility thing. But I’d love to know what kind of tastebuds they have.


It's actually the corn/molasses combo that does it. It's the same with horses, they like sweet, when they've tasted that once, they want it. My horse wouldn't eat the pre alpin, he refused. Now he loves it.


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## KhairulTort (Jun 6, 2020)

Kim&Tim said:


> It's actually the corn/molasses combo that does it. It's the same with horses, they like sweet, when they've tasted that once, they want it. My horse wouldn't eat the pre alpin, he refused. Now he loves it.


We’re making cute little sugar addicts out of our tortoises ?


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## Kim&Tim (Jun 6, 2020)

KhairulTort said:


> I’m not implying there’s something wrong with my tortoise. I just thought it might be more.... well... poop like


It does take some getting used to. But it's normal to see fibers in their poop. I see them too, they get out of it what they need and the rest is being pooped out. Stinking however, no my torts poop hardly has any smell tbh.


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## KhairulTort (Jun 6, 2020)

Kim&Tim said:


> It does take some getting used to. But it's normal to see fibers in their poop. I see them too, they get out of it what they need and the rest is being pooped out. Stinking however, no my torts poop hardly has any smell tbh.


Haha maybe you’re just used to the manure smell since you have a horse. 
I hate it.


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## Kim&Tim (Jun 6, 2020)

KhairulTort said:


> We’re making cute little sugar addicts out of our tortoises ?


Yep, just like kids sortof. But I wouldn't buy that crap ever. I'm just amazed people use it as an 'holy grail' product and it's pretty crappy ingredients wise. It's always ferd mazuri, I use mazuri, mazuri is great, where can i buy mazuri etc etc.


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## Kim&Tim (Jun 6, 2020)

KhairulTort said:


> Haha maybe you’re just used to the manure smell since you have a horse.
> I hate it.


That's quite possible ha ha. My torts poop actually smells like a mini horse poopy???


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## KhairulTort (Jun 6, 2020)

Kim&Tim said:


> That's quite possible ha ha. My torts poop actually smells like a mini horse poopy???


Still stinks even if you have that “fresh Alpine grass”


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## Toddrickfl1 (Jun 6, 2020)

KhairulTort said:


> Why do you think your tortoise is so picky? Maybe they’ve discovered the secret to tortoise MSG somewhere in there. My tortoise seems to love his fresh greens much more than the grass and it took a few weeks of coaxing and mixing to get him to eat the grass that’s good for him so I wonder if it’s a digestibility thing. But I’d love to know what kind of tastebuds they have.


There's certain foods he just won't eat easily. If I feed only greens for two weeks he won't eat any. Or if I feed greens mixed with some fruit, he'll pick out the fruit. If I mix 4 pieces of soften Mazuri mixed with greens he will devour the whole plate within minutes. So rather than starve him weeks at a time till he gives in it's just easier with the Mazuri.


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## Maro2Bear (Jun 6, 2020)

I like Mazuri for our Sulcata because I’m hoping it adds in all the other micro nutrients that an animal needs — especially during Winter when my overall feed options are limited.

During the Summer, our Sully gets a ton of fresh grass, weeds, flowers, leaves, cactus pads & more (rocks, dirt, bugs). In Winter not nearly as much variety, but luckily I‘m able to source fresh dandelion leaves & cactus pads.

The micro “nutrients”

Mazuri tortoise diet:
Ground soybean hulls, ground corn, dehulled soybean meal, ground oats, wheat middlings, cane molasses, dehydrated alfalfa meal, wheat germ, *dicalcium phosphate, soybean oil, brewers dried yeast, calcium carbonate, salt, dl-methionine, choline chloride, pyridoxine hydrochloride, d-alpha tocopheryl acetate (form of vitamin E), biotin, cholecalciferol, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K), calcium pantothenate, vitamin A acetate, folic acid, riboflavin, preserved with mixed tocopherols, rosemary extract, nicotinic acid, vitamin B12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, citric acid, l-lysine, manganous oxide, zinc oxide, ferrous carbonate, copper sulfate, zinc sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite, cobalt carbonate.

I’m *guessing that the scientists & mixologists wouldnt add all of these other ingredients if they didnt think these trace amounts were beneficial. It costs more to add these compounds in & raises Mazuris cost. Mazuri could just take bales of hay, chop it up, add a binder (like molasses) pelletize it, but they don’t. I’m under the impression that most zoos feed Mazuri products as well. So, it can’t be all bad.


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## Maggie3fan (Jun 6, 2020)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> There's certain foods he just won't eat easily. If I feed only greens for two weeks he won't eat any. Or if I feed greens mixed with some fruit, he'll pick out the fruit. If I mix 4 pieces of soften Mazuri mixed with greens he will devour the whole plate within minutes. So rather than starve him weeks at a time till he gives in it's just easier with the Mazuri.


I understand that Mazuri has great additives for tortoises...but I have seen in my own animals a sort of addiction to Mazuri...where they end up having an eating problem, especially babies. I feed the best I can to my tortoises...if they don't eat, I leave the food there until the next feeding, then I pick up old and add new...I know that's not recommended...but there's no use stressing over a feeding problem...my torts are bigger and mostly grazing now...but what to do when they eat the grass all down? Hmm...food for a different thread...anyhow...I don't like and don't ever feed Mazuri...


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## Kim&Tim (Jun 6, 2020)

Maro2Bear said:


> I like Mazuri for our Sulcata because I’m hoping it adds in all the other micro nutrients that an animal needs — especially during Winter when my overall feed options are limited.
> 
> During the Summer, our Sully gets a ton of fresh grass, weeds, flowers, leaves, cactus pads & more (rocks, dirt, bugs). In Winter not nearly as much variety, but luckily I‘m able to source fresh dandelion leaves & cactus pads.
> 
> ...


The micronutrients you mention are nothing more than synthetic vitamins and minerals. It's nothing special. If they would leave those out, then you would see what the product really is. You'd have a tortoise with a full belly but nutritionally malnourished. They do the same for horses with many foods, cheap ingredients and a nice dose of synthetic vitamins and minerals. 

The fact that zoos use it, doesn't mean anything to me. Zoos are companies that need to make money. They don't have time to fuss. They need a well nourished tortoise to display. So a combo of veggies, some weeds and mazuri is made. Torts need to eat and we all know how stubborn they can be. 

Would you go to the store to get your tort some soy hulls and corn? Prob not?


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## Kim&Tim (Jun 6, 2020)

maggie3fan said:


> I understand that Mazuri has great additives for tortoises...but I have seen in my own animals a sort of addiction to Mazuri...where they end up having an eating problem, especially babies. I feed the best I can to my tortoises...if they don't eat, I leave the food there until the next feeding, then I pick up old and add new...I know that's not recommended...but there's no use stressing over a feeding problem...my torts are bigger and mostly grazing now...but what to do when they eat the grass all down? Hmm...food for a different thread...anyhow...I don't like and don't ever feed Mazuri...


I do this, you don't like it? Too bad, it's good for you, it's fresh, it has fiber, natural vitamins and minerals. Maybe tomorrow you'll change your mind?


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## Maggie3fan (Jun 6, 2020)

Kim&Tim said:


> I do this, you don't like it? Too bad, it's good for you, it's fresh, it has fiber, natural vitamins and minerals. Maybe tomorrow you'll change your mind?


That's so right to do tho...sometimes I think that we cause eating and behavior problems simply by the way we treat them...


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## turtlebean (Jun 6, 2020)

This is crazy, this thread just popped up and I just ordered this bag of Mazuri for the first time last night! Lol Kim&Tim are you monitoring my internet useage???



I also am not sure what the hype is about because my tort hasn’t tried it yet but it seems like a lot of the people on these forums swear by it. I tried to get my tortoise to eat the zoo n
med grassland pellets and he really skews away from it, so I figured this would be a good alternative. 

Have you guys developed a preference between the original mazuri or the LS?


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## Kim&Tim (Jun 6, 2020)

maggie3fan said:


> That's so right to do tho...sometimes I think that we cause eating and behavior problems simply by the way we treat them...


Exactly! Sometimes I'm guilty of it too, I totally admit it. But then I snap out of it ha ha. I'm like hey, this is some good quality greens here, I grow them myself, you don't like it? Too bad. Sure, I chop new things up and mix with favorites, you don't like it? Well... 

I do make an exception with serious illness or something. Things can go south very quickly. But I'm sure you'll do that too! But if healthy... Tomorrow is another day?


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## Kim&Tim (Jun 6, 2020)

turtlebean said:


> This is crazy, this thread just popped up and I just ordered this bag of Mazuri for the first time last night! Lol Kim&Tim are you monitoring my internet useage???
> View attachment 296591
> 
> 
> ...


Yes I am, I know everything you do?

I wouldn't buy any of them?? but... If had 2, i'd pick LS. It contains timothy, it absolutely the best of the 2.


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## Tom (Jun 6, 2020)

No one is impressed by the ingredients list, but everyone is impressed by the results from feeding it. Those ingredients that people don't like are essentially a delivery vehicle for the nutrients that we do like, in the correct balance, that we want to get into them.

This debate has been had a dozen times here. Mazuri is a good supplemental food and its helps to ensure there are no minor nutritional deficiencies in the limited diets that we all tend to feed. South Africa has more than 22,000 species of plants and succulents available for tortoises to munch on. I can't match that. Not even close. Mazuri was formulated to meet all the nutritional needs of tortoises. Specifically, it was made for Galapagos tortoises. Decades of use have shown it to be a good food that brings good results. I used to be one of those people that was against this "artificial crap", but I opened my mind, listened to others who knew more than me, and tried it.

It does not leave them "nutritionally malnourished". Quite the opposite.

No one ever has to feed Mazuri. Tortoises can certainly be well fed without it. This doesn't mean it is bad, or that it isn't a good way to get good nutrition into a tortoise.

I believe part of why they like it so much is that it resembles feces when soaked. At least some tortoise species seek out and eat mammal feces as a food source in the wild. It is a great way for them to get nutrients that would otherwise be literally out of their reach. Let a tortoise roam a backyard where a dog has recently pooped and see what happens. I don't recommend this, but anyone who has made this mistake knows what will happen.

I can understand why someone with little or no experience using this product would feel this way. I used to feel that way too. I was wrong. Do a side-by-side feeding trial with groups of clutch mates, and you to will see why it is not bad and why we recommend it. If you are the type of person that likes everything to be "organic" and "natural", then never feed this product or any other prepared food to your tortoise. Either way can work and either way can produce a healthy happy tortoise if done correctly. Personally, I like the middle ground. I feed mostly "natural" foods that I grow or find, but I like to use a little Mazuri once in a while for cheap insurance.

Another benefit of occasionally using Mazuri is that it can be stored for months at time and still retain good nutritional qualities. This can literally be a life saver when civil unrest, viral pandemics, power outages, or natural disasters prevent people from getting the normal "natural and organic" foods that they prefer to use. If you can't get to the store for one reason or another, and the ground outside is covered in snow, Mazuri can keep your tortoise fed for a few days until other foods can be sourced. All the better if your tortoise already knows what it is and likes it.


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## Maggie3fan (Jun 6, 2020)

I'd stick with original...also...I go to the local feed store...I take 2 big black plastic bags with me...for $4 I collect different hays from their stacks and that feeds my locked up tortoises for the winter...my Safeway donates boxes of greens weekly thru the winter...I walk around my neighborhood and free my neighbors yards of weeds...plus everything I gow in my yards is food for tortoises...almost 100 Rose of Sharon bushes...grape vines...pumpkins.


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## Tom (Jun 6, 2020)

Kim&Tim said:


> I wouldn't buy any of them?? but... If had 2, i'd pick LS. It contains timothy, it absolutely the best of the 2.


What do you base this recommendation on? Do you have extensive experience feeding both, and other prepared foods? Or is this based on your "feelings" after reading a couple of ingredients lists?

Most tortoises don't like the LS. You can soak it for two hours and it remains hard, which makes it difficult for tortoises with smaller mouths to eat. Original Mazuri turns to mush, and it can be fed to tiny hatchlings with no problem.

The ingredients in LS do look better on paper, and that is exactly why they made it. To appease the vast number of people who make their buying decisions based on emotion and their perceptions of the product, vs. looking at decades of evidence and personal experience of actual use of the product.


Side note that should have been added to the previous post: Yet another benefit of Mazuri is that it can be mixied in with new and better foods to get a tortoise to eat it. Like when a sulcata is reluctant to try dry hay. Start mixing in hay with some soaked Mazuri and they learn to like the hay in short order, and then the Mazuri can be gradually reduced and phased out.


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## OkAdiza (Jun 6, 2020)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> There's certain foods he just won't eat easily. If I feed only greens for two weeks he won't eat any. Or if I feed greens mixed with some fruit, he'll pick out the fruit. If I mix 4 pieces of soften Mazuri mixed with greens he will devour the whole plate within minutes. So rather than starve him weeks at a time till he gives in it's just easier with the Mazuri.


This has been happening with my Hermann’s for a few months now. He literally will look at food, sniff and leave if there isn’t Mazuri present. But the times I mix it up with his greens he does eat practically everything. How often to you mix in? I do think my once a week is maybe too little because he really won’t eat otherwise.


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## Toddrickfl1 (Jun 6, 2020)

OkAdiza said:


> This has been happening with my Hermann’s for a few months now. He literally will look at food, sniff and leave if there isn’t Mazuri present. But the times I mix it up with his greens he does eat practically everything. How often to you mix in? I do think my once a week is maybe too little because he really won’t eat otherwise.


I mix in a little Mazuri about 3 times a week but I never feed Mazuri only.


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## Kim&Tim (Jun 6, 2020)

Tom said:


> What do you base this recommendation on? Do you have extensive experience feeding both, and other prepared foods? Or is this based on your "feelings" after reading a couple of ingredients lists?
> 
> Most tortoises don't like the LS. You can soak it for two hours and it remains hard, which makes it difficult for tortoises with smaller mouths to eat. Original Mazuri turns to mush, and it can be fed to tiny hatchlings with no problem.
> 
> ...


I'm not organic, vegan, vegetarian etc. I'm from a horsefarm, nothing organic about it. 


You know I get it, I see see all the benefits etc, I understand.

The thing is this. The fact that people have been doing things for 30+ years, means everything and nothing to me. When people say that, I'm like sure, I'll hear you, I think about and then make my mind up. I think. The result can be: yes I'm going to do it exactly like that, maybe I'll do it a little different, maybe I'll make a combo, maybe I'll research more, but I think!

For 30+ years every vet, specialist etc would advice farms and private horse owners to collectively deworm every 8 weeks. We did that for many years. That has changed since 10 years, because they found out that horses where immune to every deworm meds at the age of 20+. This meant that there was nothing you could do for them anymore, the meds didn't work. So for instance you'd have a horse full of blood worms and nothing could be done, it would become very ill and die. So they changed that policy very fast abd radically, within 2 years they'd advise collective worm count at labs and only deworm when there are too many eggs in a specific amount of manure. 

Same for horsefeed. Horses eat grass and hay, but are also fed on pellets. 30+ years ago a combo of corn, soy, wheat and vitamins became popular. Before that the majority still fed single grains in combo with hay/grass. So we fed that too, horses grew nice and muscular, they liked it, they performed well, were being sold well, it's pretty cheap. So a win/win!

When horses are 15+, they are prone to a desease named PPID (Pituitary Pars Intermedia Dysfunction) or Cushing disease. It's serious, uncurable unfortunately and they will die, but with some care they can live pretty well untill symptoms become to bad. Some horsebreeds are more prone to it, but quite a substantial amount of horses will get this from 15 and up. 
They also found out a few years ago that feeding these pellets make the symptoms worse. This has to do with sugars from the corn, molasses they put in it, sugars from wheat and the effect of soy. They didn't know that 20 years ago, they do now and I'm glad so I can do things different for the 24 year old horse I have myself. My mom had a horse with this 10+ years ago, but we didn't know, vets didn't know.

So, I'm not an organic hippie, I'm a 42 year old farm woman who just tries to think about things, because she knows things sometimes change eventhough we've done them for many years ourselves. 

I just try to think for myself, listen to others with experience, make my mind up.


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## turtlesteve (Jun 6, 2020)

I have a full bag of the mazuri LS that is probably going to get wasted. I don't care how good the ingredients are if they won't eat it. Right now, I need to have some prepared food around to "fill out" the diet when fresh greens are less available. It's either regular mazuri or grocery store lettuce, which I think is worse. In another 3-5 years I will be able to grow enough of everything to have food year round.

Steve


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## Tom (Jun 6, 2020)

Kim&Tim said:


> I'm not organic, vegan, vegetarian etc. I'm from a horsefarm, nothing organic about it.
> 
> 
> You know I get it, I see see all the benefits etc, I understand.
> ...


This is a good conversation. I'm getting to know you better and seeing where you are coming from.

When I have horse nutrition questions, I'm calling you. My wife is a horse person too, and I've heard a lot of this from her too. But I think you missed the point of my post. You are basing your horse feeding recommendations off of decades of first hand practical experience. You've seen with your own eyes the results of feeding a horse one way or another. You are, apparently, making tortoise food recommendations without this first hand experience to back up your preferences or assertions. That is what I'm questioning. I'm most definitely not trying to label you as any of those terms you mentioned. It matters not to me what you eat anyway. Just trying to determine where your tortoise food preferences are coming from.

I understand your examples in the horse world. We have parallels in the tortoise world. To THIS day breeders, pet stores, and vets are still telling people that sulcatas are desert tortoises and need to be kept bone dry. This incorrect myth started 30+ years ago and still persists, resulting in the deaths of countless babies. Just like your example with the horse food, we are trying to undo 30 years of thinking about this all wrong.

You are most definitely not the first person to question why we feed something that looks so bad on paper to our tortoises. I questioned it, and I also bad-mouthed it too. I've lived and learned. I don't rely on Mazuri. I don't recommend people feed only Mazuri. I don't think its the best thing ever invented. I do, on the other hand, find it to be a useful product and a good supplemental tortoise food, and I've been pleased with the results from feeding it to 100s of tortoises of all ages and species for the last 10 years.


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## Kim&Tim (Jun 6, 2020)

Tom said:


> This is a good conversation. I'm getting to know you better and seeing where you are coming from.
> 
> When I have horse nutrition questions, I'm calling you. My wife is a horse person too, and I've heard a lot of this from her too. But I think you missed the point of my post. You are basing your horse feeding recommendations off of decades of first hand practical experience. You've seen with your own eyes the results of feeding a horse one way or another. You are, apparently, making tortoise food recommendations without this first hand experience to back up your preferences or assertions. That is what I'm questioning. I'm most definitely not trying to label you as any of those terms you mentioned. It matters not to me what you eat anyway. Just trying to determine where your tortoise food preferences are coming from.
> 
> ...



This is a good conversation, I like it! And you know, I'm not trying to be a know-it-all here and pretend I know it all. I don't, I know quite a few things and I've learned quite few things, but I still learn every day. I'm open to things, but I question them too! I also get where you're coming from! 

My recommendation wasn't really one? She asked what I would pick and I honestly just said none, because at this point, I wouldn't. Then I said If I had to pick 1, I'd pick the LS, because the ingredients agree with me more because the majority is Timothy hay, which is more in the line of what a tortoise would eat naturally, instead if soy and corn.

The seccond reason would be the addictive factor it can have. I saw it with my own horse when I switched to pre alpin, he hated it because he wanted sweet, all horses do. He wouldn't eat it and it became very difficult. He was very ill at the time so he needed to eat, but not his original pellets who made it worse. We got there in the end, but it wasn't fun.

I know horses aren't torts. But I do know, out of experience, what certain foods can do. Even my old dad, who's as old fashioned as they come, had to admit it (and that was hard?). The pellets do more with a horse than make them grow nicely etc, they also have an influence on their behaviour. Food in general, mainly pellets and grain types, have an influence.

We had 2 stallions a few years ago, 3 and 4 and both had a nasty temperament. So I said to my dad, maybe if we feed them differently, they'd become a bit more docile. He knows food has an influence, that's not new info, but not the pellets, they were fine, not heavy on the grains, they're fine. So I said you feed 1 your way, i feed the other one my way. So we did and mine became a bit better, not a sheep, but a bit better to manage. And it makes sense, not because I want to be right, but because the pellets are full of starches=sugar and molasses=sugar. They're big horses, they eat 2/3 kilo's a day+hay. So it made a difference, he reluctantly had to admit. And of course with my ppid horse, so then he realized, yeah it does do more. 

A friend of mine breeds guineapigs for fun and shows?So she also deals with their medical issues. The majority of guineapig foods are heavy on the soy, corn, wheat and alfalfa for 30+ years. This started around the same time horsefood started to change. Guineapigs are very prone to blatter infections and kidney stones. Since a few years they've realized that these pellets have something to do with that. She's also experimenting with more natural pellets made of hay, herbs etc for a few years now. And the new generation of these little critters have less issues than their parents.

What do horses, guineapigs and Torts have in common? Not much, except they eat similar type foods naturally= hay, grasses, herbs, flowers, etc. The industry also makes the same type of foods for them for 30+ years: soy, soy hulls, corn, wheat. combo's.

So all these things make me wonder. I'm a middle ground person too, but all these things make me wonder.


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## Cleopatra 2020 (Jun 6, 2020)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> I mix in a little Mazuri about 3 times a week but I never feed Mazuri only.


Is there a reason why you don't feed it only? Because I can put a soaked nugget next to her pile of greens even with some cactus pad in there and she'll still eat everything... LOL got. But probably eat the cactus pad first just depends with her she definitely always eats the greens


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## Toddrickfl1 (Jun 6, 2020)

Cleopatra 2020 said:


> Is there a reason why you don't feed it only? Because I can put a soaked nugget next to her pile of greens even with some cactus pad in there and she'll still eat everything... LOL got. But probably eat the cactus pad first just depends with her she definitely always eats the greens


No reason really. I actually never feed one thing only. I offer at least 3 different good food items daily (not including the Mazuri on the days I use it). So I guess it's just out of habit.


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## wellington (Jun 6, 2020)

In short a lot of people need a variety specially during cold winters up in the northern states and Mazuri helps with adding needed missing parts. I use it a lot more in winter and as a treat once a week in summer. I have no eating disorders and healthy tortoises that I know of. Know vets or any illnesses yet. Variety is not a bad thing to feed as long as it's part of the diet not the only diet. Some people only feed mazuri and that I wouldn't recommend.


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## Tom (Jun 6, 2020)

Kim&Tim said:


> This is a good conversation, I like it! And you know, I'm not trying to be a know-it-all here and pretend I know it all. I don't, I know quite a few things and I've learned quite few things, but I still learn every day. I'm open to things, but I question them too! I also get where you're coming from!
> 
> My recommendation wasn't really one? She asked what I would pick and I honestly just said none, because at this point, I wouldn't. Then I said If I had to pick 1, I'd pick the LS, because the ingredients agree with me more because the majority is Timothy hay, which is more in the line of what a tortoise would eat naturally, instead if soy and corn.
> 
> ...


You make some good points and I do think the examples of other animals have merit in regard to our tortoises.

Seems like your previous horse pellets were like Mazuri and the Pre Alpin is more like the Zoomed Grassland Pellets. Much better food, but the tortoises are reluctant to try it at first. I find they eventually love it if a person takes the time to introduce it.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jun 6, 2020)

MAZURI is one of those times when the product equals more than the sum of its contents.
It is truly a wonderful product.
Used for decades.
Tried and true.
The results are undeniable.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jun 6, 2020)

turtlesteve said:


> I have a full bag of the mazuri LS that is probably going to get wasted. I don't care how good the ingredients are if they won't eat it. Right now, I need to have some prepared food around to "fill out" the diet when fresh greens are less available. It's either regular mazuri or grocery store lettuce, which I think is worse. In another 3-5 years I will be able to grow enough of everything to have food year round.
> 
> Steve


My RF will not eat the LS.
In fact, I can't leave it in my pen because rats come for it at night.
It WOULD be a good rat food. If that was the intent.


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## Tom (Jun 6, 2020)

ZEROPILOT said:


> My RF will not eat the LS.
> In fact, I can't leave it in my pen because rats come for it at night.
> It WOULD be a good rat food. If that was the intent.


The only way I could get mine to eat the LS was to mix it with soaked original Mazuri.


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## Maro2Bear (Jun 6, 2020)

I’m with Wellington on this issue as well. Once our Sully goes outside for the Summertime I don’t provide any Mazuri. Once Winter comes & our Sully is back inside with a much limited food supply she gets a cup or two of Mazuri per week. I no longer moisten the pellets - i hear the crunch crunch crunch.


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## Kim&Tim (Jun 6, 2020)

Tom said:


> You make some good points and I do think the examples of other animals have merit in regard to our tortoises.
> 
> Seems like your previous horse pellets were like Mazuri and the Pre Alpin is more like the Zoomed Grassland Pellets. Much better food, but the tortoises are reluctant to try it at first. I find they eventually love it if a person takes the time to introduce it.


Yeah that is a good comparison! That's it. And I pity the person who introduces pre alpin or grasslands. I am that person? and it's no bueno. He hates it and I'm certain if i'd soak some horse pellets, he'd love it. 

You know how I do it? The cucumber sandwich is what I call it. I hydrate the grass pellets. I spread them out on a baking tray and let everything dry again. Once 200% dry, i put the loose stuff in the foodprocessor until super fine. This workes better for me then putting the grass pellets in the foodprocessor. That goes in a zip loc. 

I cut 2 thin slices of cucumber, put the stuff on there, make a sandwich. I hand feed it and he eats it. When he sees the stuff he's like no, but disguised it works. When that goes well step 2, mixing with chopped up favorites. He can see the stuff, but it's super fine and he's more used to it. In normal soaked state it's a no no, fine like this acceptable. 

We're now at the point that I can put it on some cut up favorites, he'll eat that no problem. So I'm going to increase it slowly. 
But it's not fun, I get why mazuri is so popular?

But we're getting there, I have some experience with the 1200 pound equivalent of little Tim.


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## Florida (Jun 7, 2020)

Kim&Tim said:


> Why is mazuri so popular? Tbh, I don't get it. The way to read an ingredients list is, the ingredient mentioned first, is what the product contains most of. Then the seccond etc etc.
> 
> 
> I have a horse and horses and herbivore tortoises are very similar when it comes to feeding. You see the same type of stuff in horsefeed, super popular but ingredients wise very mediocre.
> ...


I totally agree. I own an animal rescue farm and I went through the whole Mazuri fad. And truthfully, it was nothing more than a fad. Animals seemed to like it only because there were so many ingredients to choose from. But once I discovered that you could feed Mazuri Sow Chow to your chickens and visa versa , another Hollywood name went down the tubes. In fact, if you check the shelves of RURAL markets, Mazuri items are missing. Not because they've all been purchased but because they haven't been restocked.


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## Lokkje (Jun 7, 2020)

I adopted a leopard tortoise with no skills and no experience whatsoever from another person who had absolutely no knowledge of leopard tortoise needs. I have had desert tortoises in Arizona for many years and they are very different than the leopard. The leopard I had adopted was looking like a “failure to thrive” stuck under 50 g for many months with pyramiding on the shell and eating grocery store poor quality lettuces. I started soaking, I started using a variety of weeds, cactus pads, grasses and other items and still was getting nowhere. I was at a loss and have been following quite a number of recommendations from people on this forum. One of them was to try Mazuri pellets. My tortoise hates them (the deserts love them as I used them upon them). It doesn’t matter if I soak them, grind them, mix them or anything else. What I did discover, however, was that when I started getting dry leaf supplements from people like Will I could add things that attracted my tortoise to the food mix. Currently his two favorites are nettle and raspberry leaves although he’s gone through phases where he likes dry rose petals or dry hibiscus. I have multiple fresh hibiscus plants that the desert tortoises eat but he won’t touch them. Tortoises are interesting to try to feed and to try to give healthy complete diets and I think what everybody’s really trying to say is if the Mazuri pellets help them to get their tortoises to eat properly, grow well or get through the winter then it’s terrific. Not that it matters, but I’m a physician (endocrinologist). I also own horses and dogs and I have a friend that develops specialized horse pellets/feed for various health conditions. Equine nutrition has changed tremendously (as has human) as we have developed knowledge and gained experience and I agree with everyone on the forum that sharing their knowledge and experience hatching, raising, and maintaining healthy tortoises is much more valuable than reading an ingredient list. Unfortunately, as is well documented on this forum, there is very little understanding or experience through most of the veterinary community on the proper care of many tortoise breeds so we just do our best and share our experiences. It would be great if we could start sharing publications of well performed prospective research on diet for tortoises but it isn’t likely to be funded so I just rely on people who have done years of work with excellent results and there are many on this forum. Great and interesting discussion! PS...All of my tortoises have an obsession with eating dog poop and it’s very annoying.


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## Tom (Jun 7, 2020)

Florida said:


> I totally agree. I own an animal rescue farm and I went through the whole Mazuri fad. And truthfully, it was nothing more than a fad. Animals seemed to like it only because there were so many ingredients to choose from. But once I discovered that you could feed Mazuri Sow Chow to your chickens and visa versa , another Hollywood name went down the tubes. In fact, if you check the shelves of RURAL markets, Mazuri items are missing. Not because they've all been purchased but because they haven't been restocked.


A fad? Its been around for 30+ years and they sell thousands of bags of it annually.


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## RosemaryDW (Jun 7, 2020)

Kim&Tim said:


> My horse, the previous tort (past away in his 90's), and my current tort, all eat the same stuff: Pre Alpin. The company is German (I'm Dutch, so their neighbor?) and they make natural horse, rodents, tortoise and other livestock foods.
> The horse/tortoise one is exactly the same:meadow grasses, herbs, flowers, weeds from the Alps. Zoomed tortoise grasslands comes the closest to Pre Alpin I think. Yes the majority of my horses diet is hay/grass/weeds and the torts weeds/leafy greens etc, but the Pre Alpin is a nice completion of the diet.


We can’t get Pre Alpine in the U.S. so we aren’t going to be able to give a true comparison. It does look better to me—longer fibers and less sugar—but I don’t own enough tortoises to judge one over the other and in my climate I don’t need any supplements at all. 

We do have a very experienced breeder here, Will at @Kapidolo Farms, who feed only ZooMed, but I don’t think he gets into the Mazuri vs. ZooMed conversation, at least not that I’ve noticed.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jun 7, 2020)

Tom said:


> A fad? Its been around for 30+ years and they sell thousands of bags of it annually.


I thought that was amusing as well.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jun 7, 2020)

Lokkje said:


> I adopted a leopard tortoise with no skills and no experience whatsoever from another person who had absolutely no knowledge of leopard tortoise needs. I have had desert tortoises in Arizona for many years and they are very different than the leopard. The leopard I had adopted was looking like a “failure to thrive” stuck under 50 g for many months with pyramiding on the shell and eating grocery store poor quality lettuces. I started soaking, I started using a variety of weeds, cactus pads, grasses and other items and still was getting nowhere. I was at a loss and have been following quite a number of recommendations from people on this forum. One of them was to try Mazuri pellets. My tortoise hates them (the deserts love them as I used them upon them). It doesn’t matter if I soak them, grind them, mix them or anything else. What I did discover, however, was that when I started getting dry leaf supplements from people like Will I could add things that attracted my tortoise to the food mix. Currently his two favorites are nettle and raspberry leaves although he’s gone through phases where he likes dry rose petals or dry hibiscus. I have multiple fresh hibiscus plants that the desert tortoises eat but he won’t touch them. Tortoises are interesting to try to feed and to try to give healthy complete diets and I think what everybody’s really trying to say is if the Mazuri pellets help them to get their tortoises to eat properly, grow well or get through the winter then it’s terrific. Not that it matters, but I’m a physician (endocrinologist). I also own horses and dogs and I have a friend that develops specialized horse pellets/feed for various health conditions. Equine nutrition has changed tremendously (as has human) as we have developed knowledge and gained experience and I agree with everyone on the forum that sharing their knowledge and experience hatching, raising, and maintaining healthy tortoises is much more valuable than reading an ingredient list. Unfortunately, as is well documented on this forum, there is very little understanding or experience through most of the veterinary community on the proper care of many tortoise breeds so we just do our best and share our experiences. It would be great if we could start sharing publications of well performed prospective research on diet for tortoises but it isn’t likely to be funded so I just rely on people who have done years of work with excellent results and there are many on this forum. Great and interesting discussion! PS...All of my tortoises have an obsession with eating dog poop and it’s very annoying.


My tortoises love dog poop almost as much as the Mazuri 5M21. Almost.
Redfoot are disgusting.


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## Sue Ann (Jun 7, 2020)

Kim&Tim said:


> Why is mazuri so popular? Tbh, I don't get it. The way to read an ingredients list is, the ingredient mentioned first, is what the product contains most of. Then the seccond etc etc.
> 
> 
> I have a horse and horses and herbivore tortoises are very similar when it comes to feeding. You see the same type of stuff in horsefeed, super popular but ingredients wise very mediocre.
> ...


I don’t know, but my guy loves Mazuri LS chows it down he is growing fast and healthy


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## queen koopa (Jun 7, 2020)

Kim&Tim said:


> It's actually the corn/molasses combo that does it. It's the same with horses, they like sweet, when they've tasted that once, they want it. My horse wouldn't eat the pre alpin, he refused. Now he loves it.


Yep. I have horses as well. And those 2 are terrible for horses. Oh the sugar ? Koopa likes Mazuri if its soaked. Now that she’s adult and I’ve had her for over 2 years, I’ve got her diet to a great variety. I no longer feed mazuri, never liked the soy and corn in it. And yeah, at least the other one had Timothy and beet pulp.....


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## Relic (Jun 7, 2020)

I have to admit, the sum total of my knowledge of horses was gleaned from the old black & white sit-com: "Mr. Ed." I had always thought they only ate sugar cubes and carrots.

In the words of King Arthur in Holy Grail: _"This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes."_


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## Kim&Tim (Jun 7, 2020)

You know, for me it's not about brands or whatever. It's about what foods are made of and what ingredients do long-term. 
I think if we weren't in the horse business for 70+ years, I would never have thought about this stuff. But we are and a lot has changed from my grandparents, parents and us. The majority of horses are being sold for recreation and sport, but quite a few are not or are our own. You see them grow up from foal to old age. You see their deseases etc, you talk to other folks in the business. 
Then you see parallels with issues/deseases of other herbivores with very similar diets naturally and the similar foods the industry makes for them with the same ingredients. 

We still feed the horse mazuri so to speak, but not in the same amounts and it's mixed with other gras/herb pellets and mueslis. It has to do with acceptability and cost! Simple as that. Grass/herb pellets cost double or triple even and because they're not sweet, less acceptable/fussy eating. Feeding 1 horse like that, sure, feeding 70, no.

It is interesting; mazuri is nutrazu in Europe. Dodson&Horrell are the manufacturers of nutrazu. Dodson&horrell make our pellets and lots of other foods for zoos/grass eating animals.


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## Kim&Tim (Jun 7, 2020)

Relic said:


> I have to admit, the sum total of my knowledge of horses was gleaned from the old black & white sit-com: "Mr. Ed." I had always thought they only ate sugar cubes and carrots.
> 
> In the words of King Arthur in Holy Grail: _"This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes."_


 Ha ha? well, you've learned a bit!


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## lxsnmls (Jun 7, 2020)

All's I know as a new (proud) parent to an inherited desert tortoise (age unknown), when I researched diet/care all the credible desert tortoise sites said NOT Tto feed commercial tortoise diets period. Watching him, I find it fascinating to witness what true browsers/foragers they are: when this year's crop of weeds in his habitat/enclosure were green, I left the ones I determined to be "tort safe"... Terry Tortelli would find a weed he liked and eat it down to nothing one day then be on to something else the next, even if there were still some of the prior day's favorite. OR, he would take a take a few bites of one type and move on to the next and on and on. The one thing that is a consistent favorite of his are mulberry leaves, which are supposed to be a good "staple" for desert torts... on the other hand, he won't touch dried alfalfa which is also supposed to be a good staple. Now that the weeds have all dried up, I'm scrambling to get plants native to his wild habitat planted and growing for his browsing pleasure

;-)


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## ZEROPILOT (Jun 7, 2020)

If the question was:
"Are products like MAZURI necessary for tortoises keeping?"
The answer would be a very fast "no".
I have no doubt that an ideal natural diet is best.
But as keepers of exotic animals, keeping these animals in areas where they do not naturally live, Mazuri is very helpful.
And I still have seen no proof that it is the least bit harmful......except anecdotally.
I've been using it sporadically for over 20 years. As a part of the diet. Some days the sole ingredient. And my Redfoot are as beautiful and as healthy as anyones.
This exact topic has come up several times and I still can not agree that Mazuri is anything but a decent and real (and a responsible) option.


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## Lokkje (Jun 7, 2020)

lxsnmls said:


> All's I know as a new (proud) parent to an inherited desert tortoise (age unknown), when I researched diet/care all the credible desert tortoise sites said NOT Tto feed commercial tortoise diets period. Watching him, I find it fascinating to witness what true browsers/foragers they are: when this year's crop of weeds in his habitat/enclosure were green, I left the ones I determined to be "tort safe"... Terry Tortelli would find a weed he liked and eat it down to nothing one day then be on to something else the next, even if there were still some of the prior day's favorite. OR, he would take a take a few bites of one type and move on to the next and on and on. The one thing that is a consistent favorite of his are mulberry leaves, which are supposed to be a good "staple" for desert torts... on the other hand, he won't touch dried alfalfa which is also supposed to be a good staple. Now that the weeds have all dried up, I'm scrambling to get plants native to his wild habitat planted and growing for his browsing pleasure
> 
> View attachment 296715
> ;-)


Lovely tortoise!


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## Kim&Tim (Jun 7, 2020)

lxsnmls said:


> All's I know as a new (proud) parent to an inherited desert tortoise (age unknown), when I researched diet/care all the credible desert tortoise sites said NOT Tto feed commercial tortoise diets period. Watching him, I find it fascinating to witness what true browsers/foragers they are: when this year's crop of weeds in his habitat/enclosure were green, I left the ones I determined to be "tort safe"... Terry Tortelli would find a weed he liked and eat it down to nothing one day then be on to something else the next, even if there were still some of the prior day's favorite. OR, he would take a take a few bites of one type and move on to the next and on and on. The one thing that is a consistent favorite of his are mulberry leaves, which are supposed to be a good "staple" for desert torts... on the other hand, he won't touch dried alfalfa which is also supposed to be a good staple. Now that the weeds have all dried up, I'm scrambling to get plants native to his wild habitat planted and growing for his browsing pleasure
> View attachment 296715
> ;-)


He's lovely ?


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## Kim&Tim (Jun 7, 2020)

ZEROPILOT said:


> If the question was:
> "Are products like MAZURI necessary for tortoises keeping?"
> The answer would be a very fast "no".
> I have no doubt that an ideal natural diet is best.
> ...


No it wasn't the question? It is much broader than that but I've written that all down in previous posts. But it's ok? Eventhough things have been discussed before, never means you shouldn't discuss them again. Things change, the world changes, new insights etc. Always keep thinking!


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## lxsnmls (Jun 7, 2020)

Kim&Tim said:


> He's lovely ?


Ya think so? I've seen others that seem to have much "prettier"/more vibrant shells, but I'm crazy about him... he's my Zen Master ;-)


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## lxsnmls (Jun 7, 2020)

Lokkje said:


> Lovely tortoise!


I see you're in Phoenix and have (or had) DTs... some others I've seen have much "prettier"/more vibrant colored shells and I've wondered why his looks so "muted/muddy"... does coloration vary between habitats/territories? No matter, I'm crazy about him... he's my Zen Master ;-)


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## Tom (Jun 7, 2020)

Sue Ann said:


> I don’t know, but my guy loves Mazuri LS chows it down he is growing fast and healthy


That is great. With time, any tortoise can be introduced to it and I think most will be happy to eat it once they like it.


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## Cathie G (Jun 7, 2020)

Tom said:


> That is great. With time, any tortoise can be introduced to it and I think most will be happy to eat it once they like it.


I finally bought some. So far Saphire won't but I'm not giving up. I have my ways.


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## Cathie G (Jun 7, 2020)

ZEROPILOT said:


> If the question was:
> "Are products like MAZURI necessary for tortoises keeping?"
> The answer would be a very fast "no".
> I have no doubt that an ideal natural diet is best.
> ...


Yep. I want to use a little as a supplement only for my little tortoise. I do the same with my bunny. She gets her hay but also a small amount of grass based pellets for backup.


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## Jeanettics (Jun 7, 2020)

This thread has convinced me to try out Mazuri lol. I’m gonna buy some now!


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## Cathie G (Jun 7, 2020)

Lokkje said:


> I adopted a leopard tortoise with no skills and no experience whatsoever from another person who had absolutely no knowledge of leopard tortoise needs. I have had desert tortoises in Arizona for many years and they are very different than the leopard. The leopard I had adopted was looking like a “failure to thrive” stuck under 50 g for many months with pyramiding on the shell and eating grocery store poor quality lettuces. I started soaking, I started using a variety of weeds, cactus pads, grasses and other items and still was getting nowhere. I was at a loss and have been following quite a number of recommendations from people on this forum. One of them was to try Mazuri pellets. My tortoise hates them (the deserts love them as I used them upon them). It doesn’t matter if I soak them, grind them, mix them or anything else. What I did discover, however, was that when I started getting dry leaf supplements from people like Will I could add things that attracted my tortoise to the food mix. Currently his two favorites are nettle and raspberry leaves although he’s gone through phases where he likes dry rose petals or dry hibiscus. I have multiple fresh hibiscus plants that the desert tortoises eat but he won’t touch them. Tortoises are interesting to try to feed and to try to give healthy complete diets and I think what everybody’s really trying to say is if the Mazuri pellets help them to get their tortoises to eat properly, grow well or get through the winter then it’s terrific. Not that it matters, but I’m a physician (endocrinologist). I also own horses and dogs and I have a friend that develops specialized horse pellets/feed for various health conditions. Equine nutrition has changed tremendously (as has human) as we have developed knowledge and gained experience and I agree with everyone on the forum that sharing their knowledge and experience hatching, raising, and maintaining healthy tortoises is much more valuable than reading an ingredient list. Unfortunately, as is well documented on this forum, there is very little understanding or experience through most of the veterinary community on the proper care of many tortoise breeds so we just do our best and share our experiences. It would be great if we could start sharing publications of well performed prospective research on diet for tortoises but it isn’t likely to be funded so I just rely on people who have done years of work with excellent results and there are many on this forum. Great and interesting discussion! PS...All of my tortoises have an obsession with eating dog poop and it’s very annoying.


??


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## Cathie G (Jun 7, 2020)

Kim&Tim said:


> Yes I am, I know everything you do?
> 
> I wouldn't buy any of them?? but... If had 2, i'd pick LS. It contains timothy, it absolutely the best of the 2.


Good to know. Timothy is a regular around here since I have a bunna too. I bought the small bag of the wrong mazzuri.


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## Cathie G (Jun 7, 2020)

Kim&Tim said:


> This is a good conversation, I like it! And you know, I'm not trying to be a know-it-all here and pretend I know it all. I don't, I know quite a few things and I've learned quite few things, but I still learn every day. I'm open to things, but I question them too! I also get where you're coming from!
> 
> My recommendation wasn't really one? She asked what I would pick and I honestly just said none, because at this point, I wouldn't. Then I said If I had to pick 1, I'd pick the LS, because the ingredients agree with me more because the majority is Timothy hay, which is more in the line of what a tortoise would eat naturally, instead if soy and corn.
> 
> ...


Rabbits are like that too. I've seen the toxic lists for many animals. The lists are basically the same. Corn is a low level toxin but if you actually raise a baby on it and they don't grow up healthy? Wouldn't that cause you to question?


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## vladimir (Jun 7, 2020)

Maro2Bear said:


> I’m with Wellington on this issue as well. Once our Sully goes outside for the Summertime I don’t provide any Mazuri. Once Winter comes & our Sully is back inside with a much limited food supply she gets a cup or two of Mazuri per week. I no longer moisten the pellets - i hear the crunch crunch crunch.



Vlad crunches on it and crumbs go flying out of his beak ? he can't resist a Mazuri


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## lxsnmls (Jun 7, 2020)

Kim&Tim said:


> Why is mazuri so popular? Tbh, I don't get it. The way to read an ingredients list is, the ingredient mentioned first, is what the product contains most of. Then the seccond etc etc.
> 
> 
> I have a horse and horses and herbivore tortoises are very similar when it comes to feeding. You see the same type of stuff in horsefeed, super popular but ingredients wise very mediocre.
> ...


Well, after reading the original post and the subsequent thread, y'all have convinced me to try a commercial diet for SUPPLEMENTING Terry Tortelli's diet (and/or as a treat if he likes it) ;-). However, I agree with Kim&Tim about the ingredients and will go with the ZooMed Grassland... looks to be a better choice for a desert tortoise with no added sugar/molasses... and it even has dried dandelion greens!


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## Lokkje (Jun 7, 2020)

lxsnmls said:


> I see you're in Phoenix and have (or had) DTs... some others I've seen have much "prettier"/more vibrant colored shells and I've wondered why his looks so "muted/muddy"... does coloration vary between habitats/territories? No matter, I'm crazy about him... he's my Zen Master ;-)


I’ve ended up reading over 300 and there is a wide righty of show colors and patterns but that’s what makes them so fascinating.


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## Lokkje (Jun 7, 2020)

Breeding/reading. I shouldn’t use the microphone on this thing because I’m apparently a mush mouth.


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## Tom (Jun 7, 2020)

lxsnmls said:


> Well, after reading the original post and the subsequent thread, y'all have convinced me to try a commercial diet for SUPPLEMENTING Terry Tortelli's diet (and/or as a treat if he likes it) ;-). However, I agree with Kim&Tim about the ingredients and will go with the ZooMed Grassland... looks to be a better choice for a desert tortoise with no added sugar/molasses... and it even has dried dandelion greens!


That is cool. Just realize that the first few times your tortoise sees it, it probably won't like it or want to eat it. Don't give up. Start with just a tiny tiny broken piece of a pellet, soak it for an hour or more, and then mix it all up in a big pile of favorite greens. It should almost be like when you are eating a salad and get a tiny bit of grit. Over time you can gradually add more and more.


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## ZEROPILOT (Jun 7, 2020)

Jeanettics said:


> This thread has convinced me to try out Mazuri lol. I’m gonna buy some now!


5m21
Not the LS type.
Most tortoises do not like the so called "better" formula.
I don't want anyone to be swayed into trying some Mazuri and getting POed at me because they bought the LS.
The LS is the only one sold in the smaller bags. And my experience with it is not good.
I've also never used a different brand of pellet food. And can not vouch for them.
Redfoot CAN process sugars, etc.
Most other species can not.
A lot of those brightly colored pellets may contain sugars. I simply don't know.
They look a lot like breakfast cereal and I am suspicious of them.


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## Cathie G (Jun 9, 2020)

vladimir said:


> Vlad crunches on it and crumbs go flying out of his beak ? he can't resist a Mazuri


I'm going to try that on Saphire. I would love to see him crunching with his beak. Maybe he just doesn't like baby food.


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## Toddrickfl1 (Jun 9, 2020)

vladimir said:


> Vlad crunches on it and crumbs go flying out of his beak ? he can't resist a Mazuri


Everytime I've tried giving it dry to my Tortoise he just looks at me like "What am I supposed to do with this"


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## Lokkje (Jun 9, 2020)

Tom said:


> That is cool. Just realize that the first few times your tortoise sees it, it probably won't like it or want to eat it. Don't give up. Start with just a tiny tiny broken piece of a pellet, soak it for an hour or more, and then mix it all up in a big pile of favorite greens. It should almost be like when you are eating a salad and get a tiny bit of grit. Over time you can gradually add more and more.


So Tom are you saying I should add more and more grit to my salad?


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## Tom (Jun 10, 2020)

Lokkje said:


> So Tom are you saying I should add more and more grit to my salad?


If you want to get yourself used to eating more grit, then yes.


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## Kim&Tim (Jun 10, 2020)

Tom said:


> If you want to get yourself used to eating more grit, then yes.


I ate our horse pellets once as a kid (yeah I was one of those kids?) I wasn't impressed, no? I also tried hay and grass, but didn't do it for me either. 

@Lokkje On the seccond page at the bottom I've explaned how I do it, this really helped because the big grits were a no no. Maybe it helps!


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## Maggie3fan (Jun 10, 2020)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> Everytime I've tried giving it dry to my Tortoise he just looks at me like "What am I supposed to do with this"


Bob was that way too...he was this big rock with a sorrowful look that said...warm water on it plzzzz.
My objection to Mazuri came when I used to head-start hatchlings for my sister. I'd get them clutch's at a time, when I lived in Calif. I'd get California desert torts and Sulcata...10 to 24 or so. Because I live in snow country now, just Sulcata, in comes Bob...Bob would mostly be stuck in his shed and couldn't graze, so the Safeway provided me with free cuttings, leafy stuff...I hunted my neighborhood for weeds...hay... and at the start of winter I'd get a 40 lb bag of Mazuri. for Bob. On this one clutch I noticed a few of the hatchling babies weren't eating as well as I thought they should...and they weren't gaining weight. So one day as I was feeding Bob a light bulb went off in my head!!! Taaa Daaa. So I took Spring mix...dandelion leaves and flowers...and warm softened Mazuri...all mixed together...and from the very beginning those hatchlings and untold numbers after them, all would eat the Mazuri and leave the greens. So while I may look dumb...I'm not. I stopped using Mazuri for anybody but Bob...kept all the heat and humidity stuff correct, and took great looking healthy yearlings to her. This repeats itself until I stopped adding Mazuri. I'm thinkin because each nugget was covered in molasses, sweet, that's why...I tried'em...sweet and yet nasty...but that was just my personal experience...


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## LasTortugasNinja (Jun 10, 2020)

My Russian wouldn't touch the Mazuri. The pet store fed their stock the Zoomed grassland, so I switched it out. He didn't want it either. LOL However, if I mix it with radicchio (his 'drug' of choice) he'll eat two pellets like they're nothing. Now he gets a mix of all sorts of stuff. The zoomed, local weeds & flowers, and a few pieces of grocery greens, topped with a "treat" such as cactus, a small piece of squash, or some other "naughty" that gets him eating. Once those little jaws start chomping, they don't stop til the plate is clean.


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## [email protected]_ (Jun 10, 2020)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> There's certain foods he just won't eat easily. If I feed only greens for two weeks he won't eat any. Or if I feed greens mixed with some fruit, he'll pick out the fruit. If I mix 4 pieces of soften Mazuri mixed with greens he will devour the whole plate within minutes. So rather than starve him weeks at a time till he gives in it's just easier with the Mazuri.
> [/QUOTE Maybe it's like me putting Ketchup on everything?


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## Maggie3fan (Jun 10, 2020)

LasTortugasNinja said:


> My Russian wouldn't touch the Mazuri. The pet store fed their stock the Zoomed grassland, so I switched it out. He didn't want it either. LOL However, if I mix it with radicchio (his 'drug' of choice) he'll eat two pellets like they're nothing. Now he gets a mix of all sorts of stuff. The zoomed, local weeds & flowers, and a few pieces of grocery greens, topped with a "treat" such as cactus, a small piece of squash, or some other "naughty" that gets him eating. Once those little jaws start chomping, they don't stop til the plate is clean.


I have an adult tortoise who drug of choice is also radicchio...I've tasted it...bitter...


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## turtlesteve (Jun 10, 2020)

maggie3fan said:


> Bob was that way too...he was this big rock with a sorrowful look that said...warm water on it plzzzz.
> My objection to Mazuri came when I used to head-start hatchlings for my sister. I'd get them clutch's at a time, when I lived in Calif. I'd get California desert torts and Sulcata...10 to 24 or so. Because I live in snow country now, just Sulcata, in comes Bob...Bob would mostly be stuck in his shed and couldn't graze, so the Safeway provided me with free cuttings, leafy stuff...I hunted my neighborhood for weeds...hay... and at the start of winter I'd get a 40 lb bag of Mazuri. for Bob. On this one clutch I noticed a few of the hatchling babies weren't eating as well as I thought they should...and they weren't gaining weight. So one day as I was feeding Bob a light bulb went off in my head!!! Taaa Daaa. So I took Spring mix...dandelion leaves and flowers...and warm softened Mazuri...all mixed together...and from the very beginning those hatchlings and untold numbers after them, all would eat the Mazuri and leave the greens. So while I may look dumb...I'm not. I stopped using Mazuri for anybody but Bob...kept all the heat and humidity stuff correct, and took great looking healthy yearlings to her. This repeats itself until I stopped adding Mazuri. I'm thinkin because each nugget was covered in molasses, sweet, that's why...I tried'em...sweet and yet nasty...but that was just my personal experience...



Easy fix for this. Just don’t offer mazuri every day. Instead of mixing a variety in every meal, I feed one or two items at a time, sometimes twice a day, and rotate foods constantly. If you offer a mix, the first one to the food will always pick out all the good stuff, be it mazuri, hibiscus, whatever... They are much less likely to turn down a whole meal.


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## jsheffield (Jun 10, 2020)

I often feed mazuri as a dressing on other foods, with enough water added to render it into a porridge.

Jamie


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jun 10, 2020)

ZooMed Grassland and Forest are better products, they cost a bit more. BETTER in nutrient profile, better in ingredient inclusion/exclusion, and have a better fiber profile, this is all quantifiable. 

If your interested in a food with 80 years of a proven track record try Purina Mills organic chicken layer crumbles. It has the same basic ingredients of Mazuri (old style, not LS), but no added sugar, and it has enough calcium and D3 to support a chicken to lay an egg everyday. I've talked about all this so much. Read my blog, the one linked to the webpage at the bottom of this entry. If after that, you have a question I'll do my best to answer. If your question demonstrates you did not read the blog, I might not answer.




RosemaryDW said:


> We can’t get Pre Alpine in the U.S. so we aren’t going to be able to give a true comparison. It does look better to me—longer fibers and less sugar—but I don’t own enough tortoises to judge one over the other and in my climate I don’t need any supplements at all.
> 
> We do have a very experienced breeder here, Will at @Kapidolo Farms, who feed only ZooMed, but I don’t think he gets into the Mazuri vs. ZooMed conversation, at least not that I’ve noticed.


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## lxsnmls (Jun 15, 2020)

UPDATE ON ZOOMED GRASSLAND DIET AND DESERT TORT TERRY TORTELLI:

FIRST DAY: soaked and offered alone (curious as to his initial reaction)... turned up his nose and walked away
SECOND DAY: soaked, crumbled and mixed a little in his leaf/etc salad... gobbled everything up
THIRD DAY: soaked, crumbled and mixed a lot more in his leaf/etc salad... gobbled everything up
FOURTH DAY: soaked enough to soften but still hold it’s shape and put chunks on top of his salad... gobbled chunks first
FIFTH DAY: just for fun, offered it alone again and he gobbled it up!

I'm really happy that he’ll eat it alone in a pinch, and/or as a supplement to his diet until I get his habitat filled with a bigger variety of tort-friendly plants to ensure he’s getting everything he needs. The diet smells WONDERFUL, has great ingredients with no added sugar or molasses or soy, and a lot of vitamins/etc that he might not otherwise get in captivity/out of the wild... I’M SOLD


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## Chubbs the tegu (Jun 15, 2020)

Kim&Tim said:


> Why is mazuri so popular? Tbh, I don't get it. The way to read an ingredients list is, the ingredient mentioned first, is what the product contains most of. Then the seccond etc etc.
> 
> 
> I have a horse and horses and herbivore tortoises are very similar when it comes to feeding. You see the same type of stuff in horsefeed, super popular but ingredients wise very mediocre.
> ...


I look at it like this.. pizza is not good for us but we eat it once and awhile. And has some good to it (all 4 food groups in one meal.. if u get the meat lovers) lol


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## Kim&Tim (Jun 15, 2020)

lxsnmls said:


> UPDATE ON ZOOMED GRASSLAND DIET AND DESERT TORT TERRY TORTELLI:
> 
> FIRST DAY: soaked and offered alone (curious as to his initial reaction)... turned up his nose and walked away
> SECOND DAY: soaked, crumbled and mixed a little in his leaf/etc salad... gobbled everything up
> ...


Cool! I'm doing good too!


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## lxsnmls (Jun 15, 2020)

Kim&Tim said:


> Cool! I'm doing good too!


Hey, if it wasn't for your post, I wouldn't have even known there was a better diet out there than Mazuri... thanks!!


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