# white film on eyes



## blackace936

Hey guys I just registered 5 minutes ago so I'm pretty green. today I was cleaning my tortoises enclosure while he is hibernating. I finished cleaning and put him back him back in when I noticed a white film on his eyes. I tried to wake him up but he wouldn't open his eyes despite being awake and moving around. he did open his right eye for about a minute but not completely. I normally give him eye drops weekly but havnt done so for about 2 months so he can sleep. I have already soaked him and given him eye drops tonight. his energy levels are low but he is moving around slightly, at first I thought that was just a result from waking up in the middle of hibernating. 

I keep him in a good 40 gallon awaurium with clean crushed granite as a base. he has a heating rock and sunning area with the opposite side as a cool side. I keep his water fresh and water bowel clean. he is about two years old btw.

I have moved him to a smaller enclosure on my desk to keep an eye on him. it has towels as base, small water pan, and his heating rock. everything was sanitized before I put it in to create a sort of hospital enclosure. 

this has really blind sided me and I'm extremely worried. any advice can help right now!


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## ascott

Welcome to the Forum....you have a very ill tortoise on your hands (by the picture this is my gut feeling)....please do not let this tortoise brumate any further this year---perhaps even next year.

He looks very dehydrated and well underweight....how long have you had this tort? Where did you acquire the tort?---breeder, gift, etc? 

I would get rid of the granite rocks and replace that with a very soft bedding made of cotton towel and/or some cotton tshirts piled to make a comfortable spot for him to settle into--also, to assure he does not get sore joints as he does not appear to have too much mobility...

What was he eating prior to him "brumating"? Is this the first time you have facilitated a brumating tort? What type of set up do you have him in for his hibernaculum? What type of set up do you have to control the temp and such for him?


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## Yvonne G

Welcome to the Forum, Blackace936!

Please take the advice you are going to be receiving from our members in the vein it is intended. None of us want to hurt your feelings, we only have the tortoise's best interest at heart. Also, we may be way off base because we're going by a picture and not seeing the tortoise in real time.

There is a lot wrong with how you are caring for your tortoise, and the most important one is keeping him indoors in a 40 gallon aquarium. This tortoise should have been set up outside during good weather so it could get sunshine. Notice how flat his carapace is. I'd be willing to bet he is also soft and not firm. That is MBD (metabolic bone disease) from not getting sunshine. Tortoises need sunshine in order to make vitamin d3. And vitamin d3 is what makes the calcium work.

Next, I never disturb my tortoises once they've gone into brumation. Some people do check on them by touching a foot to see if they move, but I don't. I just leave them alone until they wake up on their own.

The white you see on the eye is his eyelid. He has his eyes closed, which is perfectly fine for a brumating tortoise. But, like Ascott, I don't agree this tortoise should be allowed to brumate. Get his lights turned on and warm him up. Treat him as if it were summer time with long days and warm weather. Give him a good, warm soak. And most important of all, buy a UVB light. My particular choice is the Mercury Vapor Bulbs similar to this one:

http://www.tortoisesupply.com/zoomed-powersun-mercury-vapor-bulb/

I haven't seen your 40 gallon aquarium, but I'm thinking the sides are too high for the light to get down low enough to be doing the tortoise any good. You can buy a very large plastic tote at K-Mart or Walmart pretty cheap. You want something with a big floor space and lower sides. Then check your temperatures inside the tote on the floor of the tote. It should be about 100F directly under the light, about 80-85F on one end and room temp or not lower than 70F on the other end.

Good luck with your tortoise. I hope you can get him up and running. Desert tortoises are pretty neat tortoises.


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## laney

He is beautiful <3 he does look very poorly though 

I hope the advice above helps to make him better and we will soon be seeing a healthy happy little guy.


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## blackace936

@ascott he always has access to water when he wants it but I am planning to do soaks in a pedialyte solution for the next week o encourage him to drink. I always feed him mainly romain, grapes, and a little carrots. He is a VERY picky eater and he has never taken well to anything else. I acquired him from a friend of mine. When he hibernates I put in some newspaper for him to hide in and about every week he comes to the other side for some water. 

@emysemys Unfortunately I can't keep him outside due to my living conditions. We have a very bad raccoon and rat problem so no matter how well I set up an enclosure he would be attacked. Plus I also have a curious beagle who might want to play a little too much. his shell is flat as a result of another turtle being placed on top of him when he was hatched. it has been like that since I got him at about 2 months old. I do place him n the yard for several hours about once a week when I can supervise him. my aquarium does have high walls but I have an extension for my light so it sits about 12 inches from his sunning rock. I do keep his sunning spot about 95 and his hiding place at room temp. 

do you think that this is bad enough that I should take him to a vet asap? Or should I try to get it under control for a week or so first?


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## stinax182

just my 2 cents...because that's all i have, haha.

i know that if a tortoise is REALLY hibernating, it wouldn't be waking up weekly for water. i believe they need a steady temp of roughly 40 degrees fahrenheit to sleep for months....and that they do, until spring. so your tort is probably trying to sleep but can't properly.

and as everyone stated, this tort shouldn't be allowed to hibernate. he's unhealthy and sleeping for months is going to deplete the reserves he has. i agree with the advice offered, warm him up, turn the lights on for 12 hours a day and start feeding him daily or every other day.

I'm not sure if a desert tort has the same diet as a sulcata, so I'll leave out fresh grasses and weeds. but i know romaine lettuce is not a good staple for any tort. try some mustard, collard greens, endive, escarole, kale, any of those are good and you can mix them with the romaine. and carrots are good but not offered daily. i don't know how much fruit a desert tort eats, but i know grapes shouldn't be offered daily either.

i don't think you need a vet right away....I'd wait to see how he handled being woken up and warmed. if he eats and sits under the light basking, I'd get a uvb asap and get him under it. someone else will give you further advice regarding a vet visit.


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## blackace936

Ok so I think I have made some definite progress. today he has started opening his eyes a little bit and has regained a lot of energy. I plan to continue to give him eye drops and pedialyte soaks for a week or so though. unfortunately it is the rainy season and a storm rolled in this morning so I wont be able to give him some sunlight for the next couple days. I also intend to get him some calcium dusting and try and introduce him to some new foods once he regains some more strength. I'll keep you posted but thanks for all the advice.


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## blackace936

I think I have him stabilized for the moment but I need to overhaul his living conditions. I have a very good heating and basking area set up for him but I need the whole UVA/UVB set up. something that will work pretty well for the times I can't get him out but won't bust the bank. also any suggestions in calcium dusts or multivitamins? I'll be trying a lot of the foods stinax182 suggested but like I said. he is a VERY picky eater.


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## ascott

http://www.donsdeserttortoises.com/1.html



> Feeding
> Healthy tortoises have enormous appetites! Growing native grasses, wildflowers, grass, weeds, dandelions, alfalfa (in moderation), nopales (Opuntia cactus), mulberry tree leaves, grape leaves, common cheese mallow and other mallows, chickweed, nut grass, and (for treats) rose petals, nasturtium and hibiscus flowers are excellent food sources.
> 
> 
> Desert tortoise dining on dandelions.
> Photo by Michael J. Connor
> If limited in growing foods, supplement this diet with occasional foods such as endive, escarole, squash such as zucchini, chopped carrots, small amounts of kale, romaine and other dark-green leafy vegetables. Sprinkling the food with ground-up rabbit or guinea pig pellets or mixing with Bermuda or Orchard grass hay is a good way to add extra fiber to the diet. See "Feeding" in the "Care of Hatchling Desert Tortoises" section for sources from which to purchase Desert Tortoise Seed mixes and edible native wildflower seeds.
> 
> Tortoises have a high calcium requirement: occasionally sprinkle the food with calcium carbonate (WITHOUT phosphorus as this binds calcium making it unavailable for bone/shell growth), or offer an always available calcium-rich source such as boiled chicken eggshells or cuttlefish bone (preferred - always remove hard, thin outer layer to prevent choking) for them to eat. DO NOT use calcium with added vitamin D3 if tortoise is kept outdoors. Occasionally sprinkle the food with a suitable vitamin preparation if you are unable to provide a large variety of natural foods to graze upon. All foods should be fertilizer free and MUST be pesticide free. Provide a shallow dish of water for drinking and soaking - KEEP CLEAN daily and ALWAYS IN SHADE.
> 
> Avoid excessive use of foods that are high in oxalic acid (which binds calcium) such as parsley, purslane, amaranth, spinach, beet leaves, collards, Brussels sprouts. Also avoid excessive foods in the Brassica family such as broccoli, cauliflower and mustard greens as they suppress iodine uptake and may be implicated in health issues, i.e., goiter. Excessive fruits (other than the "cactus apple" from Opuntia cactus in season) should not be fed as they may upset digestive flora and can result in overgrowth of intestinal parasites. NO banana at all, especially to hatchlings as they can choke. DO NOT feed soy, tofu nor ANY animal protein such as cat or dog food. Commercial pellet tortoise food products from pet stores are not a good choice for the major part of a desert tortoise diet.



http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/Tortoisetable.htm

http://www.turtlestuff.com/enclosures#Desert

Here are some links as well as some info....please please please, do set this tort up in a better planned enclosure....it does not have to be expensive nor fancy...also, you can set up an outdoor enclosure that you can set up as a safe and secure area for your tort to sun itself at least a few hours a day and then bring him back in at night to the safety of indoors and out of prying unwanted critters paws....

Sometimes we can feel overwhelmed...please understand that there are some essential basics that must be met in order for a tort to do well along with thriving....


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## Yvonne G

...and without the vitamin d3 (UVB) the calcium just goes right through the body and doesn't help the tortoise at all.


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## blackace936

so I got a good UVB light fixture and some calcium/D3 supplement. he has perked up a lot but doesnt seem to want to eat. he is nuzzling his food a bit but wont try to take bites of it. his mouth is hanging open ever so slightly. is it possible for tortoises to get lock jaw??


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## blackace936

I really am quite worried about his eating. he refuses to open up his mouth but he doesnt seem to be favoring it when I inspected him. other than that he seems to be back in good spirits. perhaps not healthy yet, but well underway. any ideas on how I should get him to eat? and yes I check his nose. no sort of blockage or swelling or anything of that sorts.


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## Cheeky monkey

blackace936 said:


> Hey guys I just registered 5 minutes ago so I'm pretty green. today I was cleaning my tortoises enclosure while he is hibernating. I finished cleaning and put him back him back in when I noticed a white film on his eyes. I tried to wake him up but he wouldn't open his eyes despite being awake and moving around. he did open his right eye for about a minute but not completely. I normally give him eye drops weekly but havnt done so for about 2 months so he can sleep. I have already soaked him and given him eye drops tonight. his energy levels are low but he is moving around slightly, at first I thought that was just a result from waking up in the middle of hibernating.
> 
> I keep him in a good 40 gallon awaurium with clean crushed granite as a base. he has a heating rock and sunning area with the opposite side as a cool side. I keep his water fresh and water bowel clean. he is about two years old btw.
> 
> I have moved him to a smaller enclosure on my desk to keep an eye on him. it has towels as base, small water pan, and his heating rock. everything was sanitized before I put it in to create a sort of hospital enclosure.
> 
> this has really blind sided me and I'm extremely worried. any advice can help right now!



Don't panic, whilst they are hibernating it is a great danger too wake them up! 
So just go to the nearest pet store or vet and ask! I'm shore they would be happy too help


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## shellysmom

blackace936 said:


> I really am quite worried about his eating. he refuses to open up his mouth but he doesnt seem to be favoring it when I inspected him. other than that he seems to be back in good spirits. perhaps not healthy yet, but well underway. any ideas on how I should get him to eat? and yes I check his nose. no sort of blockage or swelling or anything of that sorts.



His mouth actually looks a little strange to me, like maybe it's a little deformed and crusty around the beak. Every tort I've seen that has that, also has some sort of bacterial infection. If he continues not to eat, I would take him to a reptile vet... I just have a feeling something more is going on than problems caused by improper husbandry. He might need some antibiotics or something... Good luck!!


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## ascott

> whilst they are hibernating it is a great danger too wake them up!



I have to be sure to bring light to this statement here.... this is an erroneous old thought....if a tort is in brumation and you notice anything that does not appear to be going well, then you absolutely need to inspect/or wake up the tort....there will be no harm that comes to a tort that is correctly brought out of brumation early...


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## Thalatte

Sorry for my ignorance but what type of desert tortoise is he? I ask because I have always had Sonoran desert tortoises and they don't look like that...

As for tortoise hibernation...they DON'T DO IT!!! They brumate and should wake up often to drink or munch during the winter. It may be once a week or it may be once or twice a month but they will wake up and should be soaked once they are awake to help them pass anything left in their systems before they sleep again. It is a common misconception that they will sleep all winter without waking up and it's jus not true and lots of pet tortoise did from dehydration or starvation related instances during the winter because people don't feed and water them. 

As far as him not eating I would take him in to the vet as his mouth does look kinda concave/deformed which can be result of mbd or infection. In the meantime try offering the romaine lettuce chopped up with collard greens, mustard greens, squash, and cilantro or basil- this mix always kick starts my torts appetite after sleeping or illness. I think it's the cilantro and basil smell that does it.


Also when using cilantro or basil only use a little bit and chop it up really finely then sprinkle on top of all the other vegetables. 
The other vegetables should also be rather small to make it easier for the tort to chew.


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## blackace936

I don't know the specific sub species but I believe he is a California desert tortoise. we've always just called him a desert tortoise. after what everyone has said I do believe he has MBD. I don't think its because he doesn't want to eat but more so he can't eat. he just wont open his mouth. that black crust around his mouth is just his coloring, he has always had a darker color mouth and beak since I got him. makes him look like he has a beard.


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## TortoiseWorld

Captive bred tortoise don't need to hibernate. Only in the wild, because of their environment, they have to hibernate for survival. No heat rocks from below, he needs a Mercury Vapor Bulb emits UVB wave and heat 18" above him. And a CHE ceramic heat emmiter at night. Basking 90 degrees and night heat 80 degrees, try to keep the humidity up too, maybe with a small fog maker.
I say take him to a good exotic animal hospital just to be on the safe side. 
Make sure he has a happy new year.


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## Yvonne G

Thalatte said:


> Sorry for my ignorance but what type of desert tortoise is he? I ask because I have always had Sonoran desert tortoises and they don't look like that...



The desert tortoises, both morafkai and agassizii, look like that when young. They start to turn more gray as they age.


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## Thalatte

emysemys said:


> The desert tortoises, both morafkai and agassizii, look like that when young. They start to turn more gray as they age.



Dozer was always a gray colored body and brown shell and Tank and unnamed babies 1-4 were also either light gray or a greenish gray (all Sonoran desert tortoises) but that's interesting that they can be reddish...I might have to get me another desert tort to "compare coloring"...it's for science/educational purpose so home owners association shouldn't have a problem with it right?

To the OP: if she/he is nosing the food but not actually eating then you have an advanced case of mbd and you should take him in to a vet for calcium injections. Also in addition to the UVB bulbs (good job in buying one) look into getting a liquid PURE calcium supplement as it is easier/more concentrated and thus they get more each dose. As for the food you might have to mince everything you offer into a fine paste either using a food processor, blender, slap 'n chop, or lots of time with a knife. This will make it easier for him to eat which is just what you want.


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## ascott

> They brumate and_ should wake up often to drink or munch during the winter._ It may be once a week or it may be once or twice a month but they will wake up and _should be soaked once they are awake to help them pass anything left in their systems before they sleep again._ It is a common misconception that they will sleep all winter without waking up and it's jus not true and _lots of pet tortoise did from dehydration or starvation related instances during the winter because people don't feed and water them. _



A truly brumating CDT will move about from time to time (kinda like repositioning itself during its rest) but will not wake to look for food...nor will a tort wake up to seek out its water, just because. If your tort is doing these things then your tort is not in proper hibernaculum for the winter. 

Soaking a tort during brumation; this should not be necessary, as you should not facilitate brumation of a tort that has not consumed proper food and water in preparation for the entire brumation period...this would be an unsafe practice..

However, bringing a tort out of brumation solely to offer food and water is a dangerous behavior; a tortoise can take around 2 weeks to clear food eaten today (and this is in proper optimum conditions) from its system..so if a tort has been in cool temps for brumation, then wiggles, then is pulled out of brumation to be fed and watered then soaked with the thought he will poop out what he just consumed..that is not a good nor safe practice for the tort...

I just felt I had to share this, especially is facilitating brumation for a tort for the first time is being done...there should be some things shared to increase the successful outcome for a brumating tort...


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## blackace936

well back to the main subject. how long do you think it will take for his shell to harden up now that I have the proper equipment? I have the UVB bulb on him for 12 hours a day and I'm giving him calcium dusting on his food (once he starts to eat) or is there any sort of time frame I should watch. obviously its not going to take days or even weeks but will it takes 6 months or 2 years??


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## MyrnaBren

Just wanted to wish you the best of luck with everything. And Happy New Year.


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## Thalatte

Depending on severity you should see some change within a few months.


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