# Terra-Cotta Water Dishes



## PSLIMO (Mar 18, 2021)

Hi All,

I had very interesting conversation at my local pet store about water dishes and how the terra-cotta ones could pose health issues for our torts. Is it worth looking into to see if there's any merit in the concerns?

Could they be the source of some infections or diseases? I'll agree with the porous nature of terra-cotta there's plenty of space for bacteria and fungi to settle into.

If you think about it, you wouldn't eat or drink from a porous terra-cotta dish or glass that's not glazed so why are we using porous saucers for our tortoises.

I dunno, maybe plastic ones are a better alternative.

Comments?

Phil


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## Jan A (Mar 18, 2021)

PSLIMO said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I had very interesting conversation at my local pet store about water dishes and how the terra-cotta ones could pose health issues for our torts. Is it worth looking into to see if there's any merit in the concerns?
> 
> ...


You do understand the concept of soap & water or "sanitize" setting on your dishwasher, don't you? Frankly, I see enough on " Bar Rescue" kitchens to make me rethink ever eating out again. 

Let me guess, the pet store sanitizes all of those rock water dishes before putting them on their shelves. Or maybe their dish sales are off...


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## PSLIMO (Mar 18, 2021)

Hi Jan,

They weren't trying to sell me anything.

What they're suggesting is an unglazed terracotta dish being porous is very hard to sanitize compared to a glazed one that you can wipe clean.

It's a fair argument that if we don't eat or drink out of unglazed terracotta why are we using them for our animals.

I'm thinking they make plastic pot saucers at Home Depot and might be a better alternative. Same shape, same size only a non-porous surface.


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## Tom (Mar 18, 2021)

PSLIMO said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I had very interesting conversation at my local pet store about water dishes and how the terra-cotta ones could pose health issues for our torts. Is it worth looking into to see if there's any merit in the concerns?
> 
> ...


I've been using them for decades. I've been starting tiny hatchings on them for as long as I can remember. Literally 1000s of sulcatas, leopards, Russians, stars, and a few more species. I've grown dozens of tortoises of several species from hatchling to adults on ever increasing sizes of terra cotta dishes. I've had zero diseases or infections from terra cotta plant saucers. I think if there were some problem with them, I would have seen at least a hint of it by now.


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## ZenHerper (Mar 18, 2021)

Reptiles being bred and housed properly have immune strength to combat a wide variety of microbes. In the wild, they live on the ground. The world is a dirty place. Filthy.

As in the wild, a textured captive surface is far preferable over smooth (slippery). Glass-smooth surfaces can incubate as much algae, mold, and bacterial cultures as any other (yes, cycled aquarium, I'm thinking of you).

And, like, dump out water before it becomes stagnant. Periodically wash stuff to prevent overgrowth of microbial what-have-you. Not rocket science.

No one is stopping animal supply companies from producing/selling appropriate equipment and then providing proper instruction about how to use and maintain said equipment.


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## PSLIMO (Mar 18, 2021)

Hi Tom,

I understand your passion and contribution to this forum and it's always in the best interest of our animals.

The question? Is it better to use water dishes that aren't as porous and can harbor more bacteria and fungi.

If humans don't use unglazed terracotta is there a better alternative?


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## Guts (Mar 18, 2021)

Using human behavior as a determination of what’s safe/unsafe for an animal isn’t really ideal, chimps eat raw monkey flesh/brain, but that wouldn’t be “safe” for a human despite chinos being our closest relative.

I’d definitely be interested in a scientific study on the specific types of bacteria that typically colonize terracotta, but until that exists I’d take Toms vast experience over baseless claims from pet stores any day.


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## Tom (Mar 18, 2021)

PSLIMO said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> I understand your passion and contribution to this forum and it's always in the best interest of our animals.
> 
> ...


Glazed ones are too slippery. I don't trust what the plastic ones are made of. I don't like drinking out of plastic bottles either. I'd have no qualms whatsoever about drinking from my tortoise's terra cotta saucers. Preferably before they've been in them doing their business. 

The goal of my post was to point out that your concerns are unfounded. There is no disease or sanitary risks posed to our tortoises by using regular terra cotta saucers. They are the best of all possible worlds for tortoise drinking bowls. The right depth, the right type of sides, and their untreated surface offers traction to wet tortoise feet which is very important to inspire confidence in the tortoises and make them comfortable with their bowls. Many tortoises ignore slippery bowls, recognizing the danger they pose. None of my 1000s of babies have avoided or ignored their terra cotta saucers with their ample traction and navagatable angles, side heights, and depths.

What you heard at the pet store was akin to: "Sulcatas come from the desert. They need hot dry conditions. Any humidity or moisture will cause them to get shell rot and respiratory infections. Don't even use a water bowl to keep humidity low and desert-like. They get all their water from their food. There is no water bowl in the desert, right?" No joke, I used to tell people non-sense like this because that is what I was taught in the 80s and early 90s. Its what was written in ALL the books. Its what all the breeders and pet stores said. It all sounds so logical, but it is wrong. Dead wrong. Pet stores are literal gold mines of bad info, dangerous products, and poor care advice.

Go back to your local pet store and tell them how I say to raise stars, leopards and sulcatas. Explain the warm humid closed chamber methods and daily soaks to them. Watch what they say. Then tell them that MVBs cause pyramiding and pyramiding has nothing to do with diet. Stand back a few paces when you do this. Their heads may explode.


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## PSLIMO (Mar 18, 2021)

Hi Gut's,

Now that's the voice of reason I was looking for and thank you.

I don't know what I don't know and I'm not afraid to ask reasonable questions not claims.

I only ask the questions in the best interest of my leopard


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## Tom (Mar 18, 2021)

Guts said:


> Using human behavior as a determination of what’s safe/unsafe for an animal isn’t really ideal, chimps eat raw monkey flesh/brain, but that wouldn’t be “safe” for a human despite chinos being our closest relative.
> 
> I’d definitely be interested in a scientific study on the specific types of bacteria that typically colonize terracotta, but until that exists I’d take Toms vast experience over baseless claims from pet stores any day.


Thank you and good points.

No one is disputing that terra cotta saucers can harbor and grow bacteria and other stuff. They can. Many of mine are coated with algae. But as ZenHerper pointed out, even the smooth glass on the inside of an aquarium is a hotbed of bacterial activity and colonization, and thank goodness for that, as those vital nitrifying bacteria keep the water safe and keep our fish healthy.

What I'm trying to say is not that terra cotta saucers are pillars of sterility. I'm saying they they pose no threat and no risk that any other type of bowl doesn't also pose. I dump them out, wipe them out, rinse them and refill. Every day. No problem.


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## Tom (Mar 18, 2021)

PSLIMO said:


> Hi Gut's,
> 
> Now that's the voice of reason I was looking for and thank you.
> 
> ...


This is good. I'm arguing with you, but in a GOOD way. Its good to ask questions and be skeptical. I don't want people to just take my word for things because I said so. Question these things. Its in the questioning, arguing and explaining that so much more is learned. Everyone reading now has a better idea of why terra cotta saucers work better than plastic or glazed water bowls. Everyone reading can relax a little more knowing that their tortoises are safe, even when their water bowl isn't as clean and sterile as the drinking glasses in our cupboards. It was a good question, good thread and good discussion.

What's next???


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## PSLIMO (Mar 18, 2021)

Tom,

Slow down your passion is exhausting.

Once again, that's the voice of reason I was looking for and also the reason I asked it on this forum.

And once again, all in the best interest of my leopard. Who has finally settled into a routine and stop pouting in her new enclosure. It's very rewarding to see these animals thrive in captivity as they are truely remarkable animals.


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## Carol S (Mar 18, 2021)

It seems like the terra cotta saucers they are selling now leak. I fill them up with water and then they are empty in the morning.


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## PSLIMO (Mar 18, 2021)

Ahhhhhh, Tom...

I guess that's what's next, LOL!


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## Tom (Mar 18, 2021)

Carol S said:


> It seems like the terra cotta saucers they are selling now leak. I fill them up with water and then they are empty in the morning.


I get about one out of ten like that. I call them "seepers" and I use those ones for food instead of water. I usually buy stacks of them to have on hand in case one gets dropped and breaks. Some of my tortoises really make a mess, so I swap the bowls out for clean ones and then wash out and sun dry the dirty ones for the next day.


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## KarenSoCal (Mar 19, 2021)

Tom said:


> This is good. I'm arguing with you, but in a GOOD way.
> 
> What's next???



Tom, the entire time I've been reading this thread I've been hearing you say that "everything was fine until one day it wasn't". I realize you use that phrase for entirely different circumstances, but that doesn't make it less appropriate here.

Don't get me wrong. I use terra cotta saucers for Sulafat, and up until now never even thought of replacing them. But now I wonder.

The outbreak of austwickia has frightened me, as well as caused me to look at tort sanitation with a keener eye. I agree with everything you said about the saucers. I also know that contaminated water and food are a huge portion of how diseases spread.

At what point do we give up the old way and change to something new as a precaution, rather than as a reaction when the unthinkable has already happened?


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## Jan A (Mar 19, 2021)

PSLIMO said:


> Hi Jan,
> 
> They weren't trying to sell me anything.
> 
> ...


I know from following threads on the forum that several members have worked at pet stores. Most


KarenSoCal said:


> Tom, the entire time I've been reading this thread I've been hearing you say that "everything was fine until one day it wasn't". I realize you use that phrase for entirely different circumstances, but that doesn't make it less appropriate here.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I use terra cotta saucers for Sulafat, and up until now never even thought of replacing them. But now I wonder.
> 
> ...


@mastershake @Tom & anyone else, is there a consensus that you can't sanitize water dishes & the like via dishwasher on sanitize cycle? 

I've seen some indication that only ammonia might "sterilize" equipment, dishes, enclosures, etc., from the bacteria. The better part of discretion for everything used in connection with the diseased reptile is to throw it out.

If that's the case, then what are exotic vets doing with instruments, etc., they use to examine possibly infected reptiles?


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## KarenSoCal (Mar 19, 2021)

I don't know about the dishwasher. I'm my dishwasher, never run the thing.

I would think a bath in boiling water would sterilize bowls, including terra cotta, but I don't know if terra cotta would survive the boiling. Since it's porous, it might explode.

I believe vets sterilize their instruments like hospitals do...they get autoclaved, which is a type of superheating the instrument. But more and more they are moving toward disposable instrument sets. They are cheaper than the sterilization process, and cut down on biohazard risk.

I'd like to also say that I don't want my post to start a panic re' austwickia. I used it as an example that we are all familiar with by now, but I don't believe ordinary keepers are at risk unless they buy a hatchling from a facility that is infected. Even without austwickia, the selection of a breeder/vendor is a task that must be taken seriously and requires research.


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## Tom (Mar 19, 2021)

KarenSoCal said:


> At what point do we give up the old way and change to something new as a precaution, rather than as a reaction when the unthinkable has already happened?


This is true and totally fair. Also very easy to answer: You make a change when you see a problem. When the old way isn't working, or when you aren't getting the result you want. 

Not the case here in any way. Frankly, I don't remember terra cotta saucers being recommended in the old days either. I used to use reptile shop bowls.

Similarly: "Sulcatas should be fed lots of grass." Another old way that works, and is not a problem in any way. The old ways that need to be changed are the old ways that cause pyramiding, death through dehydration, and malnutrition.


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## Dcatalano (Mar 19, 2021)

I'm no expert but I'll say that I tried the terra cotta saucer for waterl for a couple of months at the recommendation of folks here. The damn thing leaked all over and got very slimy. 
I found a textured plastic saucer when I went back to the store for a glazed terra cotta one (which I cannot find). The plastic one has worked well for me so far and contains the water much better. 
If I ever see a glazed terra cotta saucer, I will give that a try.

With that said, Gabby rarely goes into his water dish. I soak him twice a week and he gets juicy greens. Could that be why?


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## ZenHerper (Mar 19, 2021)

Dcatalano said:


> ...Gabby rarely goes into his water dish. I soak him twice a week and he gets juicy greens. Could that be why?



Depends in part on the species, and then the individual's interest in self-soaking.


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## Michael henry (Mar 19, 2021)

Well I used a plastic hot water pan that I plugged the hole up on. They destroyed the metal ones. Then I went to a 2x4 and 3/4” plywood box almost the size of a palette. It was lined with a shower pan. I had one with tile but it did not take long for that one to get trashed. At the end I lined the box with linoleum and screwed the ends down between wood strips. The linoleum held up the best and it was textured so they could walk in it. It was ez to clean out and never did leak. If I get a big one again the water will be the same except it I’ll have a raised wood floor with the water set level in the floor. With a 3-4 inch open drain to the out side. That’s my 2 cents


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## PSLIMO (Mar 19, 2021)

It's reasonable just suggest that porous surfaces like terracotta have more surface area to harbor more bacteria and fungi. 

Does anyone on this forum know what strains of bacteria or fungi are harmful to tortoises and would more surface area for those to grow cause a concern?


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## KarenSoCal (Mar 19, 2021)

Tom said:


> This is true and totally fair. Also very easy to answer: You make a change when you see a problem. When the old way isn't working, or when you aren't getting the result you want.
> 
> Not the case here in any way. Frankly, I don't remember terra cotta saucers being recommended in the old days either. I used to use reptile shop bowls.
> 
> Similarly: "Sulcatas should be fed lots of grass." Another old way that works, and is not a problem in any way. The old ways that need to be changed are the old ways that cause pyramiding, death through dehydration, and malnutrition.



Absolutely true...all of it. Except this one line bothers me: "You make a change when you see a problem."

Standing on shore, watching the tsunami approach, is not the time to say "I think I'll learn to swim".


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## Tom (Mar 19, 2021)

KarenSoCal said:


> Absolutely true...all of it. Except this one line bothers me: "You make a change when you see a problem."
> 
> Standing on shore, watching the tsunami approach, is not the time to say "I think I'll learn to swim".


There is no tsunami approaching. That is the point. If there were one coming, we'd get early warning from the systems that are in place for that. Also, knowing how to swim won't save you in a tsunami anyway.

Terra cotta saucers are not dangerous to tortoises. Not in any way. Quite the opposite.


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## Snoopy’s mom (Mar 19, 2021)

Carol S said:


> It seems like the terra cotta saucers they are selling now leak. I fill them up with water and then they are empty in the morning.


 Duh, I thought it was just me. Back to Home Depot - again.


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## Marshall77 (Mar 19, 2021)

PSLIMO said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I had very interesting conversation at my local pet store about water dishes and how the terra-cotta ones could pose health issues for our torts. Is it worth looking into to see if there's any merit in the concerns?
> 
> ...


 As a fish keeper I don't believe bacteria care if the surface is smooth, rough a sponge ,glass it grows on all of it. I would say proper sanitation of the dishes is important than what kind of a dish it is.


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## AgataP (Mar 19, 2021)

I put mine in a dishwasher every two days, or every day if needed. Wait for them to dry out and they good to go. If I want a clean one right away pour hot water and they are fine.

I mean how long you are keeping your dishes in the enclosure without cleaning anyways?!

Enclosures are humid warm boxes so I am sure the bacteria either way loves there. However I don’t see a reason not to clean the food dish. Just like dogs bowl. There is no way I don’t wash dishes after Mazuri ??

Also I do not trust bowls from pet stores they are way to deep, shaped in a weird way and I would simply be concerned about my tortoise getting hurt or drowning because of the odd shapes.

I am really glad that they make huge terra cotta dishes for the future. ?


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## Tom (Mar 19, 2021)

AgataP said:


> ...There is no way I don’t wash dishes after Mazuri ??


You reminded me of a good point! I don't feed Mazuri in my terra cotta saucers, and I don't feed Mazuri indoors at all in most cases. Its just too messy. They smear it all over themselves and all over the substrate. I only feed Mazuri in their outdoor enclosures and on plastic butter tub type lids, and then I soak the babies afterwards before going back into their indoor enclosures.


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## AgataP (Mar 19, 2021)

Tom said:


> You reminded me of a good point! I don't feed Mazuri in my terra cotta saucers, and I don't feed Mazuri indoors at all in most cases. Its just too messy. They smear it all over themselves and all over the substrate. I only feed Mazuri in their outdoor enclosures and on plastic butter tub type lids, and then I soak the babies afterwards before going back into their indoor enclosures.



Ha Mazuri in the enclosure is pretty much a no go here to be honest. I feed Herbie outside the enclosure with Mazuri. Bath After. Luckily he eats Mazuri right from hand and all mess is avoided.
Guess who told me not to feed Mazuri in the enclosure - Tom ??
I made that mistake one time. Nope no more!!


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## Yossarian (Mar 19, 2021)

For an animal that regularly defecates on its own food and will still eat it, that regularly defecates where it sleeps, and generally that gets its crap all over itself, I dont think the water dish is too much of an issue.


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## Blackdog1714 (Mar 19, 2021)

My leopard soaks, ?, pees& eats in its Terra Cota saucer. I know cause I clean it out daily. I don't know maybe the bacteria would help what ever sort of stew my leopard is making. Thanks Tom for saying no Mazuri inside, I was concerned that I was just imagining the rotten baby diaper smell!


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## JMM (Mar 19, 2021)

PSLIMO said:


> It's reasonable just suggest that porous surfaces like terracotta have more surface area to harbor more bacteria and fungi.
> 
> Does anyone on this forum know what strains of bacteria or fungi are harmful to tortoises and would more surface area for those to grow cause a concern?


From an infection control standpoint, you are very astute to be questioning terra cotta vs. plastic. While organisms can grown on virtually all surfaces, the porosity of terra cotta does make it a wonderful surface for growth of bacteria and algae and establishment of biofilms. As others have indicated, cleanliness is crucial. To prevent surface biofilms, such dishes should be cleaned daily as others are doing. A gentle scrub with a soft brush would be beneficial. After cleaning, make sure they dry thoroughly. Tom's method of letting them dry in the sun is particularly good--many organisms cannot survive being dried out and the dish gets very warm which is also beneficial. A huge advantage of the terra cotta (beyond the rough texture that provides traction to torts) is that it can be heated in the oven to kill off the vast majority of microbes that might be embedded in the porous clay. It's important to make sure the dish is dry before doing this. Periodically heating your dishes in the oven would be a good practice. While plastic is not porous, as others have pointed out, it lacks traction and may leach nasty substances, especially as the plastic ages. Plastic obviously can't be heated in an oven, so to get it really clean requires 10% bleach or virkon or an activated hydrogen peroxide cleaner--only the activated hydrogen peroxide cleaners are really safe for food dishes and utensils.

While routine use as a food or water bowl is unlikely to result in growth of harmful organisms, organisms that the torts harbor may potentially get onto the dishes and/or grow. The torts that are using the dishes are adapted to these organisms. Introduction of new animals though can cause issues....Routine cleaning and periodic decontamination (i.e. heating terra cotta) is a good practice.


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## AgataP (Mar 20, 2021)

Well my tort is getting soaks and that’s where he does his business. He sits in his dish in the water but no ? till he is out. Potty trained ??


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## Marshall77 (Mar 20, 2021)

JMM said:


> From an infection control standpoint, you are very astute to be questioning terra cotta vs. plastic. While organisms can grown on virtually all surfaces, the porosity of terra cotta does make it a wonderful surface for growth of bacteria and algae and establishment of biofilms. As others have indicated, cleanliness is crucial. To prevent surface biofilms, such dishes should be cleaned daily as others are doing. A gentle scrub with a soft brush would be beneficial. After cleaning, make sure they dry thoroughly. Tom's method of letting them dry in the sun is particularly good--many organisms cannot survive being dried out and the dish gets very warm which is also beneficial. A huge advantage of the terra cotta (beyond the rough texture that provides traction to torts) is that it can be heated in the oven to kill off the vast majority of microbes that might be embedded in the porous clay. It's important to make sure the dish is dry before doing this. Periodically heating your dishes in the oven would be a good practice. While plastic is not porous, as others have pointed out, it lacks traction and may leach nasty substances, especially as the plastic ages. Plastic obviously can't be heated in an oven, so to get it really clean requires 10% bleach or virkon or an activated hydrogen peroxide cleaner--only the activated hydrogen peroxide cleaners are really safe for food dishes and utensils.
> 
> While routine use as a food or water bowl is unlikely to result in growth of harmful organisms, organisms that the torts harbor may potentially get onto the dishes and/or grow. The torts that are using the dishes are adapted to these organisms. Introduction of new animals though can cause issues....Routine cleaning and periodic decontamination (i.e. heating terra cotta) is a good practice.


My favorite reply very thorough. You might break a dish occasionally putting it in the oven but I suspect mostly this would be because it's not completely dry as you say. A large enough air bubble would do it too but those get weeded out at the factory when they go for the firing process. Fortunately terra cotta is easily replaced, so having spares on hand is not only practical but easy.


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## mastershake (Mar 20, 2021)

if the water temp exceeds 175deg then you can sanitize them. steam generally is not enough with terra cotta though as you need it to penetrate deeper into the material. lowes has very large like 2ft thick plastic water dishes in the garden dept we tend to use here for drinking water. and terra cotta is not meant to be water proof as its a porous material and even when glazed sometimes pin holes exists. we swap out dishes daily and they get sanitized in between use.


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## Marshall77 (Mar 20, 2021)

mastershake said:


> if the water temp exceeds 175deg then you can sanitize them. steam generally is not enough with terra cotta though as you need it to penetrate deeper into the material. lowes has very large like 2ft thick plastic water dishes in the garden dept we tend to use here for drinking water. and terra cotta is not meant to be water proof as its a porous material and even when glazed sometimes pin holes exists. we swap out dishes daily and they get sanitized in between use.


Yes terra cotta can let water through some more than others but I wouldn't trust glazed terra-cotta at all. It's been a long time since I was in high school but when I was one of my jobs as the teacher's aide of the art class was to approve the glaze for the project. We had both food safe glaze and not food safe glazes.
Knowing that my concern would be. Why would anyone spend more money for a food safe glaze for the bottom of a terra cotta pot? They may all be made food save now, but until that is a confirmed fact I wouldn't trust them.


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## Sue Ann (Mar 27, 2021)

PSLIMO said:


> Hi Jan,
> 
> They weren't trying to sell me anything.
> 
> ...


My Sulcata would just tip it over. Eat it, etc. Terracotta works great.


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## Mitortuga (Mar 27, 2021)

Jan A said:


> You do understand the concept of soap & water or "sanitize" setting on your dishwasher, don't you? Frankly, I see enough on " Bar Rescue" kitchens to make me rethink ever eating out again.
> 
> Let me guess, the pet store sanitizes all of those rock water dishes before putting them on their shelves. Or maybe their dish sales are off...





PSLIMO said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I had very interesting conversation at my local pet store about water dishes and how the terra-cotta ones could pose health issues for our torts. Is it worth looking into to see if there's any merit in the concerns?
> 
> ...


When you think about it, it makes sense. I have a stone I clean often where I yes toss his meal on he has a store bought one also my daughter gave to me. But I read that the stone helps the beak?
You could also use a shallow bowl or plate.


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