# Incest breeding opinion...?



## Redfoot NERD (May 27, 2014)

Has anyone here had redfoot tortoise second generation hatchlings? - Father breeding with daughter? This question has been asked on this thread - http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-sounds-of-redfoot-love.93299/

Not really interested in theory or a scientific speculation based on what happens with a flying squirrel.. or an albino bigfoot, etc.!

Does anyone really know?


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## parrotlady (May 27, 2014)

Ok, I thought some one would reply. I am really interested in this topic. Incest or line breeding? We have some gorgeous animals out there with responsible breeders proving that with careful selection one can improve certain characteristics.


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## Telid (May 27, 2014)

I would imagine it is the same as with any species - it increases the chance of recessive genes being displayed. This can cause interesting quirks, but can also cause health problems. This can apply to both line breeding, as well as incest. However, line breeding is slightly better because it can minimize health risks. For example: look a dogs. Purebred lines tend to have significant health issues, but can generate increasingly unique characteristics.


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## leigti (May 27, 2014)

In my opinion just getting interesting characteristics is really not worth purposely producing an animal with an increased risk of health issues. The breeding of dogs should make that very clear why it is not a good idea.


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## Yvonne G (May 27, 2014)

Happens all the time in horses - breeding sire to daughter. Its an acceptable practice.


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## CourtneyG (May 27, 2014)

It is a bit easier to incest breed in reptiles, it actually takes quite some time before you see any cons come out of the breeding. Where's mammals the problems come out very quickly. For healthy breeding to recover from the incest breeding you find some of the more healthier offspring and then you breed with genetically diff animals, go a gen or two, then you mix breed again to to get the pattern out again, sorta repeat and you have a strong genetically wise new morph. They did something very similar with the sphinx cat.


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## tortadise (May 27, 2014)

Well intraspecific breeding is definitely done in morphs. I'd imagine it's done within normals as well. The reptile aspect of it should prove fertile animals. I don't favor it all. Yes it may happen in the wild of course it could. Very unlikely though in the wild. I would think it would be a possibility of many captive lineages that are selective looking specimens. After all it is done highly in snakes, and lizards. I'm sure it's definitely done in tortoises


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## CourtneyG (May 27, 2014)

tortadise said:


> Well intraspecific breeding is definitely done in morphs. I'd imagine it's done within normals as well. The reptile aspect of it should prove fertile animals. I don't favor it all. Yes it may happen in the wild of course it could. Very unlikely though in the wild. I would think it would be a possibility of many captive lineages that are selective looking specimens. After all it is done highly in snakes, and lizards. I'm sure it's definitely done in tortoises


Actually it is done a lot in the wild, any species that has had a loss of their own population numbers, they will interbreed. Tigers, cheetahs, Komodo dragons, and lions to name a few.


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## Redfoot NERD (May 27, 2014)

So then.. I tend to speculate that little or any harm is done with interbreeding Redfoot tortoises - especially considering the small territory they live in. Imagine how small a pond that spotted turtles [ Clemmys guttata ] live in.. with generations of turtles in that small space! 

There doesn't seem to be any documented proof with redfoot tortoises.. and since it took 6 years in captivity for a friend to raise a hatchling of mine [ I raised her mother from a hatchling.. took 6 years to make her ] to breed with his male and create a hatchling - that's 12 years it has taken to make a second generation hatchling. Again we are talking 50% chance also.

So according to this "gene" thing I would need to wait another 6 years minimum and breed a second generation daughter with grandpa! I'm running out of time gang.. and I'm not concerned or intend to go any further! In another 12 years I'll be older than everybody here on this forum... you young'ins better get started quick!

Thanks all for the unrelated theories and speculations - makes for good copy.


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## naturalman91 (May 27, 2014)

Redfoot NERD said:


> So then.. I tend to speculate that little or any harm is done with interbreeding Redfoot tortoises - especially considering the small territory they live in. Imagine how small a pond that spotted turtles [ Clemmys guttata ] live in.. with generations of turtles in that small space!
> 
> There doesn't seem to be any documented proof with redfoot tortoises.. and since it took 6 years in captivity for a friend to raise a hatchling of mine [ I raised her mother from a hatchling.. took 6 years to make her ] to breed with his male and create a hatchling - that's 12 years it has taken to make a second generation hatchling. Again we are talking 50% chance also.
> 
> ...



LOL i am trying to get started quick! but i'm trying to build my own unique herd such as a all black we talked about on the other post a few day's ago


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## Star-of-India (May 27, 2014)

Well, for wild populations it is at least somewhat important to have out crossing from familial groups on occasion, otherwise you do end up with either unhealthy and/or poorly reproducing animals in the long run. Even with seemingly isolated groups there is often new blood migrating in on occasion. And that is why stud books are maintained for some animals, including some species of tortoises, which we keep and breed. 

That said, it doesn't mean that all inbreeding will result in deleterious effects. Even with us humans there are cultures where cousin marrying cousin is preferred. -Usually related to maintaining property in familial lines.


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## ascott (May 27, 2014)

I would personally think that a lineage far separated would be desirable....although close/inline breeding is done--we are dealing with a species that is meant to live a very long time..so time will only tell....again, "simply my opinion"


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## dmmj (May 28, 2014)

I would think since no one has done a study on it, on would not know if it was good or bad. Just because you have not run into any problems yet, does not mean that they won't come. seems kind of short sighted to say oh well 2 generations, no problems yet, lets continue, forget about future breeders I will be dead not my worry. Not a science fact, just my humble opinion, but wouldn't genetic diversity be a good thing?
I seem to recall a show awhile back about cheetahs and their inbreeding problems, something about a large portion of the pop. died out a long time ago, so they are seeing problems now, but hey as long as I get mine I guess it is ok.


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## Saleama (May 28, 2014)

We remove all babies from our Box turtle bale every year and give them away. None will go back into the garden. While I am not sure that inbreeding causes issues, I know that NOT inbreeding does not cause any. I am getting plenty of cute little boxie babies without needing to see if I can breed for the white spotted purple headed three toed. Although I admit, I would LOVE to see those traits come out in the kiddos.


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## Redfoot NERD (May 28, 2014)

You are right parrotlady... there's always those that must demonstrate what we talked about... and they have responsibility???


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## Madkins007 (May 29, 2014)

parrotlady said:


> Ok, I thought some one would reply. I am really interested in this topic. Incest or line breeding? We have some gorgeous animals out there with responsible breeders proving that with careful selection one can improve certain characteristics.



The problem is that tortoise genetics are not well understood since the have so few offspring and take so long to breed. Many species of tortoise are also known to store and mix sperm over at least a 3 year period, which makes it really hard to KNOW who the father of a given egg is.


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## Madkins007 (May 29, 2014)

Redfoot NERD said:


> So then.. I tend to speculate that little or any harm is done with interbreeding Redfoot tortoises - especially considering the small territory they live in. Imagine how small a pond that spotted turtles [ Clemmys guttata ] live in.. with generations of turtles in that small space!
> 
> There doesn't seem to be any documented proof with redfoot tortoises.. and since it took 6 years in captivity for a friend to raise a hatchling of mine [ I raised her mother from a hatchling.. took 6 years to make her ] to breed with his male and create a hatchling - that's 12 years it has taken to make a second generation hatchling. Again we are talking 50% chance also.
> 
> ...



In the thread title, you ask for opinion then state you want facts... which of course, we don't have. Poor record keeping, slow reproduction, and other complications make this really hard to prove one way or another. Someone can SAY that they have not experienced a problem with it, but without a good autopsy and/or gene testing, how would you know?

Reptile DNA is sufficiently primitive and robust that problems are unlikely unless the inbreeding is carried on for too many generations or by too-closely related individuals over time. This is not really a reason to indulge if you can avoid it. Until we have a better grasp of tortoise genetics the smart thing to do would be to work to maintain a reasonable amount of responsibility and avoid crossbreeding and inbreeding.

As for the small range comment... red-footeds are documented as wandering as much as 3 miles in a day, with most ranging over an area of several football fields (per Moscovitz, and Vinke and Vetter.) I would not call that a 'small territory' for a foot-long tortoise. As for the spotted turtles, it is really too bad that they don't have some way to change ponds when they are crowded...

Of course, Wikipedia points out that this is a semi-terrestrial species that often hunts on the land and occupies a territory of 1.2 to 8.6 acres. It also points out that they routinely leave their mating ponds to find nesting sites. Several other sources confirm this as well.


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## LTygress (Jun 1, 2014)

I'm actually a geneticist, although I don't really work with tortoise or turtle genes, so here's what you're looking at.

Yes, there is an increase of health risk. Yes, there is an increase of recessive traits being displayed.

However, inbreeding, line breeding, and "incest" in and of itself does not cause problems. Just as with any selective breeding program, if you come across a negative trait (such as the German Shepherd dog with hip dysplasia) you discontinue breeding that animal, contact anyone who may have adopted offspring, and let them know not to breed theirs either.

But if there are no negative recessive traits anywhere in their lineage, then you're good to go. And if this happens to be your case, it is actually highly recommended that you DO breed back to that animal's relatives, because you actually have a VERY healthy pedigree, and we need more of THOSE types of animals around.

Not to mention, if you want it to be as much like nature as possible, remember that animals breed with their own relatives quite often in the wild, simply because that is what's around them.


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## parrotlady (Jun 1, 2014)

Thank you for your input.


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## N2TORTS (Jun 1, 2014)

LTygress said:


> I'm actually a geneticist, although I don't really work with tortoise or turtle genes, so here's what you're looking at.
> 
> Yes, there is an increase of health risk. Yes, there is an increase of recessive traits being displayed.
> 
> ...


 

BINGO >>>!!!!!!!
Ahhh yes .........finally !.....
THANK YOU FOR YOUR INPUT!
JD


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## Redfoot NERD (Jun 1, 2014)

IS ANYBODY LEARNING ANYTHING FROM THIS THREAD............................ FINALLY????????

It IS amazing how "they" try to make [ what they call ] Herpetology.. a science! It is not possible to make a science out of anything that someone can not control the parameters.

The title of this thread was for an opinion.. because I knew that was what I was going to get.. strictly "opinions"! It's unfortunate that statements made are 'twisted' and taken out of context. General statements always bring out how the responder feels about the author.

Finally someone came along that understood the question... finally! - thank you LTygress.. well said and true.

I can say true because - I know those that HAVE bred tortoises for 5 and 6 generations....... [ those that most have never heard of.. who have no reason to read what most have written.. and certainly have no reason to be a part of any forum ]


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