# Miniature sully or something else....???



## mctlong (Mar 25, 2013)

Hey folks,

I just bought this eensy teensy little guy off Craigslist. 

The person I got him from has had him for more than 4 years. The petstore told her that this sully was two or three months old at the time of purchase. Now, more than 4 years later, he's approx 2.75" SCL and weighs 80 grams. As you can see, he has an unusual color. Some of that can be attributed to the red calcium sand he was kept on, which you can see in the pics, has stained his plastron. 

The obvious question is, why in the world is he so small? Any ideas?

One thought is that he may not be a sully. I considered possibly a chaco, but I assume even a Chaco would be over 3 inches at 4 years old? Of course, I've never owned a Chaco, so please correct me if I'm wrong. Are there any other tortoise species that anyone can think of that has spurred thighs, heavy arm scales, and slow growth?

My next thought is a health issue. He was raised in a dry environment with UV lighting and access to water. He may be partially blind in one eye. His shell is not soft. He had a respiratory infection early on and fearing another one, his owner kept him in a dry indoor enclosure. He was taken out to the yard to graze. His diet, according to the owner, consisted primarily of clovers and dandelion which he grazed out of the yard. 

He appears dehydrated. Could long-term dehydration cause a growth delay this extreme? 

My last resort would be to say that its some sort of genetic issue, but I want to exhaust all ideas before I explain it away as genetic.

Thoughts? Ideas? 

Also, he is un-named. Any ideas on a good name? I've just been calling him "tiny."


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## tortadise (Mar 25, 2013)

looks like either a chaco or common padloper. Could be a desert tort too. You got me stumped. Cool find though. Even of the species mentioned would be much larger than 2.75" at 4 years old. hmmm


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## wellington (Mar 25, 2013)

His legs look to me like he is very underfed. They are so skinny. It sounds,like he was kept fairly well, except for the hot and dry part. Did they give him any calcium or vitamins that you know of? Will be interesting to see how he comes along.


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## mctlong (Mar 25, 2013)

wellington said:


> His legs look to me like he is very underfed. They are so skinny. It sounds,like he was kept fairly well, except for the hot and dry part. Did they give him any calcium or vitamins that you know of? Will be interesting to see how he comes along.



He does look thin.

She had some calcium powder but didn't say how often she gave it to him.




tortadise said:


> looks like either a chaco or common padloper. Could be a desert tort too. You got me stumped. Cool find though. Even of the species mentioned would be much larger than 2.75" at 4 years old. hmmm



Do you know if the padloper has spurs on its thighs?


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## tortadise (Mar 25, 2013)

Do you know where they got it and anymore history?


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## mctlong (Mar 25, 2013)

tortadise said:


> Do you know where they got it and anymore history?




She said she got it from a petstore 4 years ago. She didn't say which one, but she did say that they had no business selling tortoises and gave her very bad care advice. 

They told her it was a sulcata, 2-3 months old.


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## tortadise (Mar 25, 2013)

yeah but usually just one, and a nuchal scute. However no Idea on if sometimes they have lack of nuchal kinda like 5% of aldabras dont have one. Would make sense of its very large beak and tiny size. Im not too certain of the growth rates of homopus femoralis but might be. VERY unlikely to find one in the states let alone craigslist. But sure does show some signs of one. Would be cool.


Well you got me. Looks like a sully no doubt, but so small, with a giant head and huge beak. Cool color. The spurs and gular are very consistent with a sully.


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## mctlong (Mar 25, 2013)

I'm looking at photos of padlopers on google and it looks like my new tort's carapace is a bit more domed than the padlopers. What do you think?


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## Eweezyfosheezy (Mar 25, 2013)

Looks like a sulcata to me, I've seen a few sulcatas that small around the same age but they all had no access to UV. A name suggestion I have for him/her is Sandstone.


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## tortadise (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah thats pretty domed for a padloper even a femoralis. I was just hoping maybe you found one  What an odd find you have there. Pretty cool though. Does it eat good and show to be active? Make sure in weird scenarios(and all new animal additions) to keep quarantine period. Especially with those platynotas in your care


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## mctlong (Mar 25, 2013)

I'll get him hydrated and well fed. If he's starts growing like a sully, then we'll have a clear answer.

By default, I'll be raising him like a sulcata, including the high sully temps. Can Chacos and padlopers thrive under the same high temps as sulllies?




tortadise said:


> Yeah thats pretty domed for a padloper even a femoralis. I was just hoping maybe you found one  What an odd find you have there. Pretty cool though. Does it eat good and show to be active? Make sure in weird scenarios(and all new animal additions) to keep quarantine period. Especially with those platynotas in your care



This guys getting nowhere near my stars! 


He's not active and is dehydrated. I haven't seem him eat, but I've only had him for a couple hours.

If he's a sully, I may be able to put him with my other sully, but only if he grows, and only after _at least_ a 6 months quarantine period. My sully is only 6-months old and already over twice as heavy as this new little guy. If the little guy doesn't grow, he'll live alone indefinitely. I wouldn't want the bigger sully to crush him or push him around.


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## tortadise (Mar 25, 2013)

More than likely its a sullie that held on strong. Yep sure can. Chacos like it hot, at least mine do. and Padlopers can handle heat too.


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## mctlong (Mar 25, 2013)

Eweezyfosheezy said:


> Looks like a sulcata to me, I've seen a few sulcatas that small around the same age but they all had no access to UV. A name suggestion I have for him/her is Sandstone.



Thanks, I like that name.


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## wellington (Mar 25, 2013)

Do you think it could be a mix of the chacos and sully? Possibly a sully and something else? 
Do you think she was telling the truth about its age and not just saying what she did to get rid of it, because she realized she made a mistake buying a sully?


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## mctlong (Mar 25, 2013)

wellington said:


> Do you think she was telling the truth about its age and not just saying what she did to get rid of it, because she realized she made a mistake buying a sully?



I don't think she was lying. She seemed honest and she clearly cared about the animal. There are also some oddities about this little guy that makes him not quite right. His color is unusual for a sully and his head is odd-shaped, looks disproportionately large for his body.



wellington said:


> Do you think it could be a mix of the chacos and sully? Possibly a sully and something else?



That would be AWESOME! But I seriously doubt it. What are the chances? I haven't heard of mixing anything with a sully except a leopard.


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## tortadise (Mar 25, 2013)

HAHA No. Chacos only get 8" max for females and males are a bit smaller. I would love to see a little 6" male chaco trying to breed a 20" female sulcata. That would be a funny picture and highly unlikely. Time will tell on this guy.


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## Laura (Mar 25, 2013)

i think its a chaco.......


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## Yvonne G (Mar 25, 2013)

Your new little tortoise looks similar to the last picture on this page:

http://www.arkive.org/chaco-tortoise/chelonoidis-chilensis/photos.html

I'm so glad you bought him. Please keep us updated with pictures. If you don't mind, I'd like to show your pictures to Danny over on Shelled Warriors.


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## mctlong (Mar 26, 2013)

*Re: RE: Miniature sully or something else....???*



emysemys said:


> Your new little tortoise looks similar to the last picture on this page:
> 
> http://www.arkive.org/chaco-tortoise/chelonoidis-chilensis/photos.html
> 
> I'm so glad you bought him. Please keep us updated with pictures. If you don't mind, I'd like to show your pictures to Danny over on Shelled Warriors.



I don't mind. Let me know what he says.


Thanks Yvonne. He does look alot like the Chaco tortoise in the pic. I wish I could flip that Chaco over and take a look at its plastron. 

I'll keep the forum updated with pictures and weights.




Eweezyfosheezy said:


> Looks like a sulcata to me, I've seen a few sulcatas that small around the same age but they all had no access to UV. A name suggestion I have for him/her is Sandstone.



Elliott, do you know how long those sullies lived?




Laura said:


> i think its a chaco.......



I hope so. If he's a Chaco, then he's only a little small for his age and has a good chance of surviving. If he's a sully then I fear that he may have some severe health issues.


Either way, we'll get him fat and happy and see what happens.


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## Tom (Mar 26, 2013)

I have seen many suer small sulcata. Usually its due to dehydration and a diet of just hay or grass. I think some of the babies that are started with the dry method somehow survive it, but it stunts them. I've seen 6 year old sulcatas this size. The ones I've seen before were living outside mostly, so subjected to temperature extremes, and extreme dryness here in SoCal. Indoors they usually still grow, they just grow very disfigured. Just mentioning some generalities...

The color could be explained by the red reptisand. The beak, well, we all know the contributing factors there. The front leg scales suggest sulcata to me, but I've been wrong before and I'll probably be wrong again.

Looks like a stunted, stained sulcata to me. No way of knowing the life span. It might die tomorrow, or live more than 100 years.


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## DesertGrandma (Mar 26, 2013)

Interesting thread. Sure will be fun to find out just what this tort is. So glad you were able to get it.


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## Shannon and Jason (Mar 26, 2013)

Yes very interested myself to see how this plays out hopefully the lil guy will start growing with proper care


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## CourtneyG (Mar 26, 2013)

Defiantly not a Padlooper. Padloopers prefer high humidity only in their hides, and low levels in the tank.


The shell pattern is even wrong to begin with.


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## Eweezyfosheezy (Mar 26, 2013)

mctlong said:


> emysemys said:
> 
> 
> > Your new little tortoise looks similar to the last picture on this page:
> ...







I know one passed but the rest (to my knowledge) are still living. I'd also give mazuri every day to him/her.


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## mctlong (Mar 26, 2013)

Tom said:


> I have seen many suer small sulcata. Usually its due to dehydration and a diet of just hay or grass. I think some of the babies that are started with the dry method somehow survive it, but it stunts them. I've seen 6 year old sulcatas this size. The ones I've seen before were living outside mostly, so subjected to temperature extremes, and extreme dryness here in SoCal. Indoors they usually still grow, they just grow very disfigured. Just mentioning some generalities...
> 
> The color could be explained by the red reptisand. The beak, well, we all know the contributing factors there. The front leg scales suggest sulcata to me, but I've been wrong before and I'll probably be wrong again.
> 
> Looks like a stunted, stained sulcata to me. No way of knowing the life span. It might die tomorrow, or live more than 100 years.



Thanks Tom -

Its hard to tell in the pic, but the red staining from the red sand is different than the chocolate brown color of the carapace. The staining is primarily on the plastron and legs, and a little around the ridges of the carapace. Its bright red, the color of kool-aid. Its patchy, darker in some areas and lighter in others. The carapace color, on the other hand, is brown in color and uniform throughout. Its not patchy like the red stains. I don't think the red sand caused this brown color, mostly because of the uniformity and color, compared to the plastron stains, and also because the sand was not deep enough to burrow in and likely did not have alot of contact with higher parts of the shell.

With the stunted sullies you've seen, do you remember what sorts of associated health complications they may have had? Is there anything you'd recommend keeping an eye out for? I'm thinking with the dehydration, there's a good chance of liver and kidney issues. I don't see any signs of MBD yet. He seems to get around just fine and walks normally.



Eweezyfosheezy said:


> I know one passed but the rest (to my knowledge) are still living. I'd also give mazuri every day to him/her.



Thanks Elliott- 

I agree. I don't usually feed Mazuri, but I am making an exception in this case. I think it'll be a good way to fatten him up. He's got some on his plate now. He hasn't eaten anything yet, but its still early and he may be a little stressed from all the change.




CourtneyG said:


> Defiantly not a Padlooper. Padloopers prefer high humidity only in their hides, and low levels in the tank.
> 
> 
> The shell pattern is even wrong to begin with.





Thanks Courtney -

I agree, I think we've exhausted that possibility. It would've been cool though. 




Shannon and Jason said:


> Yes very interested myself to see how this plays out hopefully the lil guy will start growing with proper care



Thanks Jason - 

I hope he will start growing too.




DesertGrandma said:


> Interesting thread. Sure will be fun to find out just what this tort is. So glad you were able to get it.



Thanks Joy - 

He looked so small and sickly in the post. I had to get him.


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## Tortoise (Mar 27, 2013)

Good luck with your mystery tortoise-sounds like he or she is lucky to be owned by you.


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## mctlong (Mar 29, 2013)

*Re: RE: Miniature sully or something else....???*



Tortoise said:


> Good luck with your mystery tortoise-sounds like he or she is lucky to be owned by you.



Thanks tortoise!


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## Anjulene (Mar 29, 2013)

You might try feeding him more variety in his diet and perhaps a little more food so
He grows faster. Maybe a little Kale and Greenbeans and some timothy hay. I mist them all together and add some calcium. This is the only way I can get my
Tortoises to eat the hay they need.


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## mctlong (Mar 29, 2013)

*Re: RE: Miniature sully or something else....???*



Anjulene said:


> You might try feeding him more variety in his diet and perhaps a little more food so
> He grows faster. Maybe a little Kale and Greenbeans and some timothy hay. I mist them all together and add some calcium. This is the only way I can get my
> Tortoises to eat the hay they need.



Thanks Anjulene. He's not eating much yet, but in the four days that I've had him, he's been offered a wide assortment of food including dandolion greens, chopped up prickley pear pad, shredded carrot, collards greens, mazuri, and grassland tortoise pellets. Yesterday I transplanted some mature mixed grasses into his enclosure and I planted some seeds. His previous owner indicated that most of his food came from grazing in the backyard, so I'm hoping that the new grass will encourage him to eat. It'll be awhile before the seeds grow, but they contain a good mix of weeds.


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## Anjulene (Mar 30, 2013)

I hate to say it but very young Tortoises can and will eat crickets. This is what happens at the Zoo I frequent. They are supposed to be good for them so you might check into this. Everything else you are feeding sounds spot on.


Oh and when I got my youngest she had a hard time adjusting to the new temp, surroundings, and change in diet. She didn't eat for a while. Maybe yours will perk up as soon as it realizes he/she has a better home!!!


I am partial to giving my animals old folk names. How about Greer?


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## Yvonne G (Mar 30, 2013)

Anjulene: You're preaching to the choir!  MCTLong is not a newbie in tortoise-keeping. She has quite a bit of experience and is sharing with us a rescue she has taken in and trying to rehab.


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## mctlong (Apr 1, 2013)

Anjulene said:


> I hate to say it but very young Tortoises can and will eat crickets. This is what happens at the Zoo I frequent.



Have you observed this behavior yourself? What sort of tortoises were they? Sulcatas don't eat crickets. I wish they did. I've got way too many in my yard and they drive me crazy at night! 



Anjulene said:


> Oh and when I got my youngest she had a hard time adjusting to the new temp, surroundings, and change in diet. She didn't eat for a while. Maybe yours will perk up as soon as it realizes he/she has a better home!!!



Thatâ€™s the hope! 
She did eat a little this weekend, so thatâ€™s encouraging. 



Anjulene said:


> I am partial to giving my animals old folk names. How about Greer?



What type of name is that? Celtic?
I've been going between calling her 'tiny' and 'pinky', but she still has no real name yet.



emysemys said:


> Anjulene: You're preaching to the choir!  MCTLong is not a newbie in tortoise-keeping. She has quite a bit of experience and is sharing with us a rescue she has taken in and trying to rehab.



Thanks Yvonne. 

Anjulene, I couldnâ€™t find your introduction thread. Did you start one? It would be a great place to let people know who you are and introduce your tortoises.


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## EricIvins (Apr 1, 2013)

The color is a result of iron staining......


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## mctlong (Apr 1, 2013)

EricIvins said:


> The color is a result of iron staining......



Iron!!! Yes, great observation! Light bulbs going off â€¦â€¦.

I don't think that the copper color on his carapace was caused by direct contact with iron-rich soil simply because his carapace was not in direct contact with any soil. The dry sand in his aquarium was very shallow, so he was not burrowing. Additionally, his plastron, which was in direct contact with the sand was dyed with bright red patches, very different from the odd brown/copper carapace color. Therefore, the odd color of the carapace was not caused by direct contact with the sand. Howeverâ€¦.I wonder if ingestion (as opposed to direct physical contact) with the red sand could have caused his odd coloration. I donâ€™t know how calcium sand gets its red color. Naturally red sand is high in iron oxide, but the calcium sand may have been dyed with artificial color (something Iâ€™ll need to google and find out). If the calcium sand is high in Iron, then I wonder if eating this iron-rich sand caused his strange coloration. People with haemochromatosis (iron overload) will develop a bronze-skin tone. Can iron overload in tortoises have a similar color-changing effect? Iâ€™ll do some internet research tonight and see if I can find any studies on the effects of iron-overload on reptiles. 

Thinking outloud, the two questions that are floating around in my mind are:

1.) Is the petstore-quality red calcium sand naturally red due to iron oxide or is it dyed with non-iron-containing red dye. If red dye, what is in this red dye and is it toxic?

2.) If the sand is red due to iron, what are the effects of haemochromatosis on tortoises? Can iron overload stunt growth? 

Iâ€™m so glad I posted here, its great to bounce ideas off such insightful people. 

Thank you EricIvins and everyone.


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## mctlong (Apr 4, 2013)

So the little guy had his first vet visit yesterday. I took my chance with a new vet (as opposed to my regular vet) because the new vet supposedely has more specialized experience with tortoises.

I wasn't able to bring in a stool sample. The little guy is not pooping, which has me concerned about potenital compaction. (However, I am keeping him on a dark topsoil, so it possible that he's pooping and I don't see it or that he's pooping and eating it when I'm not looking.) Nonetheless, without a poop sample, we couldn't test for parasites. The vet offered to provide some panacur anyways, but I think its best to wait instead of taking a chance of potentially making him sicker by giving him a medicine he may not require.

The vet noted that the little guy is retaining fluid, not a good sign, which he thinks is caused by liver damage. There's no way to know, at this point, whether the liver damage (if thats the problem) was congenital or environmetnal. However, he did say that liver damage can be caused by poor nutrition, specifically not eating enough protein (which makes me suspect that he's getting his species mixed up - which kinda annoyed me). Liver damage is sometimes reversable, so if this is the problem, he may get better with improved nutrition and hydration. 

Overall, the vet's advise was to keep feeding him a healthy diet and either he'll live or he won't. I didn't find his advise overwhelmingly useful. He didn't recommend any blood work or lab tests (aside from the fecal which we'll get done as soon as we get a sample). 

I may take him in to see another vet and get some labwork done to see if we can really pinopint a problem and find a real solution. If it turns out that he has parasites, then I'd want to know if there's a liver problem before giving him panacur. My common sense is telling me that its not a good idea to give anti-parasitic (essentially toxic) medicine to an animal with a failing liver.

On the upside, his activity level has picked up and he's not as lethargic as he was when I picked him up ten days ago. He hasn't gained any weight, but he hasn't lost any either, so I'm taking that as a good sign.

Anyhoo, just thought I'd update you all and let you know where the little guy was at.


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## Tom (Apr 4, 2013)

I think you are right about the medicine, but the vet might be right about the protein. I had a phone conversation with Richard Fife a couple years ago, and one of the things we discussed was protein deficiency. He was of the opinion that many tortoises are fed a protein deficient diet. Salad mixes, grocery store greens and grass, does not offer a lot of protein. Neither do most of the other things we all recommend to feed. This is where things like alfalfa, legumes, clover and Mazuri are helpful as part of a varied diet.

My guess in this case is going to be organ damage due to chronic dehydration.


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## mctlong (Apr 4, 2013)

Yes, the one thing we can definately say about this guy is that he was dehydrated, so I would not be at all surprised if long term dehydration resulted in liver or kidney damage.


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## EricIvins (Apr 4, 2013)

Just google orange Alligator and you'll find a bunch of new stories and pictures of an iron stained Alligator. Note that the animal has moved to a different water source and the staining is starting to wear off. I'm sure you'll see the similarities......


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## tortoise_man1 (Apr 7, 2013)

mctlong said:


> I'm looking at photos of padlopers on google and it looks like my new tort's carapace is a bit more domed than the padlopers. What do you think?



I agree I have done some research on padloppers and they have very flat shells compared to sullys.


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## mctlong (Apr 8, 2013)

EricIvins said:


> Just google orange Alligator and you'll find a bunch of new stories and pictures of an iron stained Alligator. Note that the animal has moved to a different water source and the staining is starting to wear off. I'm sure you'll see the similarities......



Thats an interesting looking alligator! Thanks for the info. 

I do see similarities in color. Thing is, this little tort is terrestrial. It was raised in a dry environment without regular soaks. It had water available for drinking, but didn't spend considerable time in water like the orange alligator did. Its drinking water came from the city's tap water system. This is the same tap water my torts drink and none of them turned orange. 

I have had some luck scrubbing some of the kool-aid colored stains off the plastron with a toothbrush. Scrubbing makes no difference in the carapace. He may just have a naturally dark-colored carapace. We'll see in time if it fades.



tortoise_man said:


> I agree I have done some research on padloppers and they have very flat shells compared to sullys.



Yep, he's not a padloper. He's either a sulcata or a chaco. I've compared dozens of photos of the two side by side, but can't make a posiive ID. He's just too under-developed to make a definitive call. It'll become clearer if he lives and grows. As he grows, I'll be looking at the development of the scales on his front legs, the nodules/spurs on his thighs, the scutes on his plastron, and his head size to body size ratio. These should give us a good indication of species as the easiest method for differentiating the two, size, is not going to help us in this case.


He's also got a name now, btw. I'm calling him "Rusty" due to his unique coloration.


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## Jacqui (Apr 8, 2013)

I think Rusty is a fine name for him.


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## mctlong (Apr 11, 2013)

He's POOPING!!!!!!! Finally!!!!

And its a whole lot of sand. All sand. A ton of it! This little guy was compacted up the wazoo (_literally_)! I'm soooo glad its coming out! We're finally making some progress.

 Doing my happy dance.


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## LeopardTortLover (Apr 11, 2013)

I'm guessing you'll be removing the sand from the enclosure if you haven't already? Haha


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## mctlong (Apr 11, 2013)

LeopardTortLover said:


> I'm guessing you'll be removing the sand from the enclosure if you haven't already? Haha



I don't use sand. His previous owner had him on a red calcium sand. He must've eaten a whole lot of the stuff. 

I'm very glad its all coming out now. This is a very good sign!


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## LeopardTortLover (Apr 11, 2013)

I imagined that would be the case. Congrats on the sandy poop in that case. Bet he's sore now though


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## mctlong (Apr 12, 2013)

LeopardTortLover said:


> I imagined that would be the case. Congrats on the sandy poop in that case. Bet he's sore now though



His butt may be sore now, but I bet his tummy's feeling better. Hopefully the freed-up space will stimulate his appetite.


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## Laura (Apr 12, 2013)

pumpkin and mineral oil... 
hope he does better...


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## mctlong (Apr 12, 2013)

He started eating on his own today. Not just tasting or nibbling, actually eating. 
This is one resilient little fella.


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## CtTortoiseMom (Apr 12, 2013)

mctlong said:


> He started eating on his own today. Not just tasting or nibbling, actually eating.
> This is one resilient little fella.



How exciting!! Goo Rusty!!


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## Shannon and Jason (Apr 12, 2013)

Glad to hear doing better  you have a fighter on your hands good things to come I'm sure


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## mctlong (Apr 28, 2013)

Its been a month since I picked this guy up, so I thought I'd post a quick update. He weighed in at 98 grams today. Thats a more than 20% increase in overall body mass. He's been doing much better since passing the bulk of that sand compaction (he's still passing sand, but much less than before). With the weight gain, I'm confident that he's eating enough now and so I've stopped the TNT (weed/grass flour) soaks. 

He still retains water. The liver/kidney damage will take time to heal (if it does), but he's on the right track. If I look really really close and squint a little, I can even see some new growth on his shell. 

This guys gonna be fine. 

I still am unsure what species he is, but the more I research, the more I lean towards Chaco. He'll need to grow significantly before he'll get a positive ID. Despite his age, his development still appears very hatchling-like and its hard to distinguish those markers that differentiate chacos from sulcatas at this stage.

I'll keep everyone posted on his progress.

Cheers!


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## sibi (Apr 28, 2013)

If his growth had been stunted because of the conditions be grew up in, than his shell will look like a hatchlings. That would explain why his carapace is smooth looking instead of pyramiding. Also, he looks a lot like a rescue I got from AZ. with the exception of his coloring. For two months, this 3 year old sully didn't gain an ounce. He remained 4 oz for a couple of months. I started to hand feed him, and he started to gain more weight. Now, he's 4 years old and just reached 16 ounces.

If this tort is a sully, it is totally possible that he can be so small and look like a hatchling. Lack of water and adequate food, besides other things, can cause a tort's growth to be severely stunted. It probably wouldn't have lived for much longer if he didn't find his way to you. The one thing your tort and my rescue have in common for sure is a strong will to survive! I believe, among all the species of torts, sullies have a tenacity that is unlike any I've seen or read about. It's amazing how some of them can survive with so little.


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## mctlong (Apr 28, 2013)

sibi said:


> If his growth had been stunted because of the conditions be grew up in, than his shell will look like a hatchlings. That would explain why his carapace is smooth looking instead of pyramiding. Also, he looks a lot like a rescue I got from AZ. with the exception of his coloring. For two months, this 3 year old sully didn't gain an ounce. He remained 4 oz for a couple of months. I started to hand feed him, and he started to gain more weight. Now, he's 4 years old and just reached 16 ounces.
> 
> If this tort is a sully, it is totally possible that he can be so small and look like a hatchling. Lack of water and adequate food, besides other things, can cause a tort's growth to be severely stunted.



I agree completely. Rusty is severely stunted. Regardless of species, he should not look like hatchling at 4+ years old. He should be more than 3 inches long. If he had grown in the last several years, he would probably be a deformed-looking tort, but he didn't grow, so he looks smooth. This smooth shell is misleading and is not a sign of good health. This stunting is a direct result of a poor environment (i.e. inadequate habitat, diet, and hydration) and his resulting health complications (liver/kidney damage & compaction).



sibi said:


> The one thing your tort and my rescue have in common for sure is a strong will to survive! I believe, among all the species of torts, sullies have a tenacity that is unlike any I've seen or read about. It's amazing how some of them can survive with so little.



Yes. On the upside, torts are amazing animals. If any animal could overcome this, a tortoise can. I really do think both our little rescues are going to be okay.


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## mctlong (Jun 10, 2013)

2 month update - 

The little runt weighed in at 116 grams today, almost a 50% increase in overall weight since day 1. Most of the gain appears to be hydration and fattening-up (if you compare the before and after pics, his little legs are much thicker). There doesn't appear to be much growth in length yet, but there are some new growth lines appearing between the scutes. His activity level has increased ten-fold since I first got him and he now grazes outdoors on fresh grass and weed sprouts daily (in addition to his daily feeding). Now that he's more active, I've noticed that the muscle tone in his legs is a little weak, but I anticipate that those legs will stengthen in time. He still tends toward retaining water and gets some swelling. Thats a result of organ damage and will take some time to heal. Overall, I give this little guy an A+ for effort. He has surpassed my expectations. 

Here's some updated pics. 

For scale, thats my hand he's resting on. That'll give you an idea of how small he is. Definately not the norm for a tort his age (4+ year old).






He's developed a very healthy appetite and LOVES danedelions. He can really enjoy them now with his recently-manicured beak. 





We were able to scrub most of the red sand stains off his plastron using a soft toothbrush. Also, his skin started peeling shortly after we got him, revealing a healthy, sulcata-colored tan skin underneath the dry brownish-red skin (see page 1 of this thread for the before pics). Looks like there was a tiny sulcata hiding under all that staining and swelling afterall.


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## LeopardTortLover (Jun 10, 2013)

Nearly brought a tear to my eye! Fantastic job, well done.


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## Kycatfishing90210 (Jul 10, 2013)

Any updates... Pics please


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## mctlong (Jul 11, 2013)

Kycatfishing90210 said:


> Any updates... Pics please



Today - 





Compared to Day 1-






Today, enjoying a treat - 





Compared to Day 1 -


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## ShadowRancher (Jul 11, 2013)

this is really great! yay Rusty! and kudos to you for helping him out. I have a feeling he wouldn't have lasted much longer in his previous conditions.


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