# best substrates



## pdrobber (Jan 5, 2011)

I'm trying to figure out what I should use.
I'm considering 
1. amount of moisture it can hold 
2. how quickly it dries
3. if it sticks to torts a lot 
4. problems if ingested
5. can't be dusty

for red foots?
for russians?

coir? some say it holds too much moisture causing shell rot and other fungus/mold problems and it sticks like crazy

sand? some say it's too abrasive and sticks on skin too much.

backyard dirt? dirt can only be dusty and dry or wet mud. 

top soil? does it dry too quickly?

cypress mulch? problems with impaction? i've never used it but can it splinter/harm? does it dry quickly?

reptibark? pine based? 

What is your experience? What have you found works well?


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## Yvonne G (Jan 5, 2011)

Hi Peter:

You are going to do the experiments and find what works for you in your climate. We really can't help you decide...you have to try it and see for yourself. 

This is what my experience has shown me:

alfalfa or oat hay pellets - too dry, can't moisten because it molds
dirt from the back yard - I like this for box turtles because they can dig down into it. If you don't put too much water on it, there is no mud. I mix it with leaf litter and it works very well for the box turtle babies
fine grade orchid bark - This is my very favorite. Its made out of fir bark and is in very small pieces...easy to walk on, doesn't mold or turn sour, doesn't compress, no harm if ingested, but I've never had any tortoise ingest it. Doesn't stick to the tortoise or get tracked over the food.
re-hydrated coco coir - Too many long strings that I would find sticking out of babies' mouths. Particles too fine and sticks to babies and gets tracked into food. Doesn't cause impaction if tort is well-hydrated. Easy to walk on. Doesn't mold or turn sour when wet. Some people mix it with sand or dirt. When I tried it I mixed it with sand. But the long strings made me quit using it.
cypress mulch - Some folks say we shouldn't use it because the cypress trees are in danger of becoming extinct. Hard to find on the west coast (USA). Sometimes comes in too large chunks and is hard to walk on. Doesn't mold or turn sour when wet. This is my second favorite substrate. If the chunks are too big, I pat the floor of the habitat with my hand and try to flatten it down. Doesn't get stuck to the tortoise or tracked into the food.


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## Missy (Jan 5, 2011)

I use cypress mulch for my large Sulcata and dirt for the small one. This works for me and my torts. I mist the dirt so it is not dusty.


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## ChiKat (Jan 5, 2011)

I use plain organic top soil with my Russian and it works great. I think the next time I do a substrate change I'll mix it with coco coir though. I do like coco coir.
I used coco coir/sand for a while but the sand was a little irritating to my little hatchling- stuck to him and irritated his eyes.


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## jackrat (Jan 5, 2011)

I like cypress mulch.It absorbs an incredible amount of water,yet the top layer dries fairly quick.The underlayers act as a resevoire(sp.?).You get the benefit of humidity without the torts staying on a wet substrate.No danger of them becoming extinct anytime soon.They grow in some of the most hard-to-get-to places on Earth.Swamps,flooded riverbottoms etc.I worked logging cypress for a brief period when I was younger.Given all that's involved-mud,water moccasins,wasps,etc,it's something I hope I never have to do again.LOL


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 5, 2011)

Here you go, this is a good list to get started on
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Indoor-enclosure-Substrates?highlight=substrates

That search button can do wonders


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## GBtortoises (Jan 6, 2011)

Everyone has their favorites that work for them. I prefer a mixture of about 60% organic potting or top soil, 30% coconut coir and the remainder shredded leaf litter and sphagnum moss. I use this substrate with hatchling, yearling and very young Northern Mediterranean species and have in the past used it with young Redfoots and Burmese Browns. I like this substrate because it absorbs moisture well and retains it longer. the tortoises can burrow in it and it holds it's form. It doesn't stick to the tortoises eyes and mouth like sand does, easy to clean, inexpensive and can be recycled as potting soil for plants or tilled into the garden in the spring.


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## ChiKat (Jan 6, 2011)

Does anyone NOT like cypress mulch? I've heard such rave reviews about it but I'm skeptical...I currently use plain organic topsoil (sometimes mixed with coir).
It seems like they wouldn't want to burrow in those sticks...and in pictures they always look splintery, like they would poke an eye or something


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## tortoisenerd (Jan 6, 2011)

Yup...try some out to see what you and your tort like. Some other variables are cost and ease of purchase (cypress mulch for example is apparently very hard to find for a reasonable price in some parts of the country). For a Russian, you can go dry or moist. For the redfoot, you need something very moist, and layers may even work better. Most of the moist substrates will dry out at a pretty similar rate under the same conditions...you will need to add water to all of them on a regular basis & mix it up.

For the Russian I'd add shredded aspen to the list. We all love it at my house (nice to burrow in, smells good, non-toxic, easy to clean, and cheap since I buy a 45 lb bag for $20 from the Bean Farm). We tried coir and the moisture and mess just wasn't good for our climate (very hard to keep warm enough, as we're damp & cold here) & household (messy!)...luckily my tort's breed doesn't need the moisture (although yes its more desirable). We have some relatively high ambient humidity, so I just make sure to provide and encourage water, give moist greens, etc. I don't hear too many people using dry substrates any more though, even with the species like Russians/Greeks/Hermanns that are less prone to lack of humidity pyramiding. The kind I like is sold in pet stores in the snake section for a high price for a small bag (shredded, small particles). Or, in the rodent section for cheaper (larger shavings, but beware you don't get "wood mix", only aspen). I only have dust when pouring it in (tort out of the room).

I would highly recommend against any kind of sand (just plain messy and unnecessary and easily ingested), and tell you flat out never use anything pine (toxic, although ok for enclosure walls), cedar (toxic), or pelleted (like alfalfa...will literally suck the moisture form your tort as its so absorbent).

The "Reptibark" made by ZooMed is made from fir wood (not pine, according to the bag) and would be safe if you chose to use that. Pricey though, and pretty similar to cypress mulch? There are some wood mixes sold for reptiles that are made of toxic woods like pine and cedar, so beware (should be labeled a pure type of wood, not unlabeled or labeled as a mix).

All things we are recommending for substrates are fine if ingested in small amounts, but you always want to limit that (such as by feeding on a surface like slate, off the substrate, and by removing a substrate if you find your tort wanting to eat it on purpose besides a test bite or two).


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## tinybit92 (Jan 8, 2011)

I have a Russian and tried coir first. It stuck to him a lot, got in his eyes, and made a general mess. I didn't like it personally, though most people do. I tried Reptibark next and that worked great for a while, but then I had a problem with wood mites. They live in the wood and if it gets warm enough they come out of their hibernation and invade your water dish. I ended up using Lizard Litter, it's made from ground up walnut shells. I made sure to do research first to check that they can't get impactions from ingesting it. My buddy Jude has been living in this stuff for months now and loves it. He likes digging in it and napping in the little holes he digs. It also gives off a very light, pleasant smell.  Everybody likes something different though, so try and figure out what's best for you.


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## datsunissan28 (Jan 11, 2011)

tinybit92 said:


> I ended up using Lizard Litter, it's made from ground up walnut shells. I made sure to do research first to check that they can't get impactions from ingesting it. My buddy Jude has been living in this stuff for months now and loves it. He likes digging in it and napping in the little holes he digs. It also gives off a very light, pleasant smell.  Everybody likes something different though, so try and figure out what's best for you.




I've never heard anything positive about long term use of crushed walnut shells. Under a microscope the edges are very sharp and jagged. Also I have documentation of several autopsies of bearded dragons that impaction from crushed walnut shells was the cause of death.

Here is just one http://mrskingsbioweb.com/beardeddragngrossanatomy.htm
Just to be forewarned it is somewhat graphic for the light of heart.

This is not the best pictures, but I have seen others of adults that are far worse off from walnut shells.


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## tinybit92 (Jan 11, 2011)

datsunissan28 said:


> tinybit92 said:
> 
> 
> > I ended up using Lizard Litter, it's made from ground up walnut shells. I made sure to do research first to check that they can't get impactions from ingesting it. My buddy Jude has been living in this stuff for months now and loves it. He likes digging in it and napping in the little holes he digs. It also gives off a very light, pleasant smell.  Everybody likes something different though, so try and figure out what's best for you.
> ...



Hmm, thanks for letting me know. I'm not going to look at the picture cause I'll probably upchuck my lunch, but I'll definitely keep an eye on Jude and look for another substrate if I see anything worrisome.


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## Yvonne G (Jan 11, 2011)

Not only that, but I've heard that black walnuts shells are toxic.


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## Robert (Jan 11, 2011)

When I setup my enclosure, I put in some calci-sand. I didn't know any better, I read on a website that it was smart, and I thought it would be cool to give Princess Leia a beach. Luckily I found this forum and I was educated about the harm of sand. 

Here's the interesting part: when I went to try and remove the sand it was a real nightmare. I was wearing a hospital mask. I also wear glasses. While removing the sand, my eyes were burning and I couldn't stop coughing. It became clear very quickly that the sand was very irritating and NOT something I wanted around my pet!


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## delpiero (Feb 16, 2011)

What about reptile carpet like the ones from zoo med? Anyone used it before?

Ivan


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## wildponey21 (Feb 17, 2011)

I eco eart or coco coir that you would use for plants. Now i two red foots. I have 7 foot by 6 foot table for them. I don't find that is stinks. I think smeel nice it smell like a green house or warm soil in the summer. I have to wet mine every day because it does dry out. But i love to and for the amout that i need i can get it in 10lbs blocks.


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## tortoises101 (Feb 18, 2011)

delpiero said:


> What about reptile carpet like the ones from zoo med? Anyone used it before?
> 
> Ivan



Reptile carpets don't allow burrowing, are less 'cushioning' than other substrates (not natural), and even a bit of dirt may result in the changing of an entire piece. Not to mention their expensive for multi or large enclosures. I don't recommend them as a substrate.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Feb 18, 2011)

We have tried them all, just like others. We like cypress for the non-hatchlings and we use natural dried up lettuce and weeds for our hatchlings. Here in Florida ours are kept outside always, except at night when the temperatures are low.


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## Radiated Tortoise (Feb 18, 2011)

what should i use for a two year old and a 1 year old radi, i have cypress mulch and repti carpet.


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## jackhill (Feb 20, 2011)

In my experience, I find something similar to the bioactive substrate recipe for my tortoises and box turtles to be best found on the tortoise library page at: http://www.tortoiselibrary.com/indoorhousing.html . 

The main difference between my recipe and that found on the tortoise library is that I use 1 part organic earthworm castings to 4 parts organic soil with a layer of sphagnum moss covering most of the area, leaving some areas open for soil. There are probably between 50-100 redworms and nightcrawlers in my box turtle's enclosure and somewhere between 25-50 in the tortoise enclosures. I have not seen the tortoises consume the worms yet and probably because they are at the lower levels of the substrate. I also have 4 large hermit crabs working well as janitors with my Red Foot Tortoises.

This mixture is super affordable where I live and works well so far for all of my tortoises and turtles (aside from my Red Ear Sliders).


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