# CHE vs RHP for Ambient/Night Heating



## CleanRiversDirtRoads (Apr 14, 2020)

Good evening everyone, and thank you in advanced for your consideration in regards to my inquiry. 

I am a new member to tortoise forum, and I am looking for advice/opinions in regards to your experience with Ceramic Heat Emitters or Radiant Heat Panels for ambient/night heat in closed containers for Sulcata and Leopard tortoises. I am leaning toward CHE due to cost effectiveness since I will have multiple enclosures, but I want to make sure that I am meeting all of the needs of the torts!

I do have a little bit of time since they haven't hatched yet, but I just want to make sure that I am fully educated and ready for them when they arrive!

Thank you again for all of your help!


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## Toddrickfl1 (Apr 15, 2020)

I recently switched from CHE's to radiant heat panels. I like the radiant heat panels much better. Much easier to work with when building an enclosure and doesn't create a super intense hot spot underneath it like the CHE's do.


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## Tom (Apr 15, 2020)

Hello and welcome.

Either can work, but I much prefer a RHP in a closed chamber. They really spread the heat out over a greater area and cause less desiccation.

Its great that you already know that you'll need a closed chamber. Most people "research" the species and then make an open topped enclosure where the babies are exposed to room temperature and low humidity.

Where are you, and where are you getting the babies? Feel free to not answer if you feel like I'm being too nosy! I'm in Santa Clarita, near Magic Mountain.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 15, 2020)

I have recently switched to all RHPs in my indoor enclosures. I really prefer them.


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## Maggie3fan (Apr 15, 2020)

Yvonne G said:


> I have recently switched to all RHPs in my indoor enclosures. I really prefer them.


ack! really???After all the black light bulbs I hadda buy over the years??? I recently switched to CHE's in the house. In the tortoise shed outside, are 2 flood lights for basking, and oil filled radiator heater for ambien heat and a pig blanket in the sleeping box...when I got rid of all the black light bulbs and changed to CHE's my electric bill went down abt $25 a month...


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## Maggie3fan (Apr 15, 2020)

Tom said:


> Hello and welcome.
> 
> Either can work, but I much prefer a RHP in a closed chamber. They really spread the heat out over a greater area and cause less desiccation.
> 
> ...


#Tom...what is desiccation?


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## haydog_99 (Apr 15, 2020)

Yvonne G said:


> I have recently switched to all RHPs in my indoor enclosures. I really prefer them.


What vendor/model do you use for your enclosures? I have a 4' x 2' x 2' enclosure and I currently have two 100 watt CHEs, one on each side, connected to thermostats to keep my enclosure warm at night. Thanks


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## Tom (Apr 15, 2020)

maggie18fan said:


> #Tom...what is desiccation?


Desiccation is a state of extreme dryness, or the process of extreme drying.


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## Maggie3fan (Apr 15, 2020)

Tom said:


> Desiccation is a state of extreme dryness, or the process of extreme drying.


thanks...I thought it was something like that...


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## CleanRiversDirtRoads (Apr 15, 2020)

Tom said:


> Hello and welcome.
> 
> Either can work, but I much prefer a RHP in a closed chamber. They really spread the heat out over a greater area and cause less desiccation.
> 
> ...



Thank you, Tom. I actually learned about the closed chamber hatchling enclosures from a care sheet that I was referred to that I believe may have been written by you. If that is the case, thank you for putting that together! 

Sadly, my first Sulcata hatchling died about 6 months after I got it from the reptile shop. Looking back, I never should have bought from there because they had about 20 hatchlings in a tortoise table with one heat source and 1 water bowl. The employee who sold me the tortoise told me I needed to buy a premade tort table to raise it in and I could never get the heat/humidity right regardless of the 4 heat lamps and 2 "humid hides" that I had. By the time I did my own research and decided to put it in a closed chamber, it was too late. The little guy had already lost his appetite and got a respiratory infection. I felt so bad after that I decided to take a break from the reptile hobby, but I feel that over the past few years of educating myself and preparing the right way, I am ready to get back into it. 

To answer your question, I actually got connected to a hobby breeder in Arizona who breeds leopards primarily and raises them right. He recently bred his Sulcatas and I'm hoping to get 3 from him, but may only be able to get my hands on one since he already had people interested in almost the whole group. Do you have any Sulcata hatchlings or yearlings available, Tom? I live in the San Clemente area in Southern California.

Lastly, the enclosures that I am building out are going to be made out of a plastic tote box with the dimensions of 46"x24"x18" if that helps in making decisions for the method of heating...


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## Tom (Apr 15, 2020)

I've got a few hatchlings that aren't sold yet, so I'd be happy to send you some if you want.

Most breeders don't start babies correctly. Read these two threads and you'll know what questions to ask of any breeder. You might also recognize what you saw the first time around:





"Hatchling Failure Syndrome"


I've heard this term for many years and I don't like it. Its a way to excuse our ignorance and failure. I will agree that an occasional hatchling is born that is just not going to make it no matter what anybody does, but MOST of them, if they make it full term and hatch, SHOULD survive and...




tortoiseforum.org









How To Incubate Eggs And Start Hatchlings


I put my eggs in a plastic shoe box with a lid on it and put the shoe box in the incubator. You can drill a couple of very small holes around the top of the container, but not on the lid. I use vermiculite as an incubation media. I mix it in a 1 : 1 ratio with water by weight for Sulcatas and...




tortoiseforum.org


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## CleanRiversDirtRoads (Apr 15, 2020)

Tom said:


> I've got a few hatchlings that aren't sold yet, so I'd be happy to send you some if you want.
> 
> Most breeders don't start babies correctly. Read these two threads and you'll know what questions to ask of any breeder. You might also recognize what you saw the first time around:
> 
> ...



Those articles hit it right on the head! Thank you for sharing. How many do you have available and what is the price of your babies?


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## Tom (Apr 15, 2020)

I've got about 10 that aren't sold yet. I sell them for $60.


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## CleanRiversDirtRoads (Apr 15, 2020)

Tom said:


> I've got about 10 that aren't sold yet. I sell them for $60.


Thank you for letting me know! I will be in touch in the next couple of days. Is it best for you if I reach out over here or would you prefer that I reach out to you directly?


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## Tom (Apr 15, 2020)

CleanRiversDirtRoads said:


> Thank you for letting me know! I will be in touch in the next couple of days. Is it best for you if I reach out over here or would you prefer that I reach out to you directly?


Whatever you prefer is fine. I'm on the forum here several times a day most days.


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## Sa Ga (Apr 16, 2020)

Tom said:


> I've got about 10 that aren't sold yet. I sell them for $60.


$60 for a sulcata? That is amazingly reasonable! Alas, I haven't the space for one.... ?


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## Tom (Apr 16, 2020)

Sa Ga said:


> $60 for a sulcata? That is amazingly reasonable! Alas, I haven't the space for one.... ?


You can find them cheaper, but you can't find them healthier or better started.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 16, 2020)

haydog_99 said:


> What vendor/model do you use for your enclosures? I have a 4' x 2' x 2' enclosure and I currently have two 100 watt CHEs, one on each side, connected to thermostats to keep my enclosure warm at night. Thanks


I don't know, as my tortoise partner, @Kapidolo Farms , set them all up for me.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Apr 16, 2020)

One thing: all heating devices should be controlled with a thermostat. 
RHP NEVER get so hot you should worry about directly touching them, if the touch or lean against something they should not cause a burn or start a fire. The surface temp may get to about 100F to 110F. CHE's even low wattage ones like the nano 25 watt, can burn your skin with prolonged contact.

RHP's can be mounted on the wall of the enclosure allowing the tortoise to have actual contact, or sit a few inches away and still get warmed. I have most experience with the models made by Vivarium Electronics, those have some kind of thermal switch, so in the event the thermostat fails they heat panel will shut itself off. Very safe for your tortoise and your home.


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## Sa Ga (Apr 16, 2020)

Tom said:


> You can find them cheaper, but you can't find them healthier or better started.


Really? Cheaper than $60? That seems darn reasonable as is. That's a lotta tort for just $60!!! 

Lol. Worry not! I believe your babies would be rock solid, steel-toed little beasties! ? Wish you bred Russians!


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## Sue Ann (Jun 1, 2020)

Yvonne G said:


> I have recently switched to all RHPs in my indoor enclosures. I really prefer them.


Yvonne, my son just made me an outdoor night box for Dexter. He found plans here. We have a Kane mat and an RHP. He hung it from chains from the ceiling so it would be adjustable. Is this ok?


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## DJ Kirk (Jun 1, 2020)

I am on team CHE in this debate
RHP's are overly expensive and unnecessary IMHO


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## Srmcclure (Jun 2, 2020)

I have a RHP in mine and i have had it for a couple days now, and I think I like it much better. My tort is also a lot more active with it. I think it was way to hot directly underneath it and he was not amused lol

I'm also no longer accidentally burning myself trying to get or fix something in the back of his enclosure. No, not everyone will burn themselves, im just clumsy lol


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## Erik Elvis (Jun 3, 2020)

I prefer RHP’s. I have 3 animal plastic cages that I keep in the basement stacked on top of one another. The lowest cage has trouble maintaining temps in the winter. I should have went with bigger panels. I can’t remember the brand but I use temp controllers that can handle 2 different enclosures.


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## ErinH (Aug 8, 2020)

Kapidolo Farms said:


> One thing: all heating devices should be controlled with a thermostat.
> RHP NEVER get so hot you should worry about directly touching them, if the touch or lean against something they should not cause a burn or start a fire. The surface temp may get to about 100F to 110F. CHE's even low wattage ones like the nano 25 watt, can burn your skin with prolonged contact.
> 
> RHP's can be mounted on the wall of the enclosure allowing the tortoise to have actual contact, or sit a few inches away and still get warmed. I have most experience with the models made by Vivarium Electronics, those have some kind of thermal switch, so in the event the thermostat fails they heat panel will shut itself off. Very safe for your tortoise and your home.



I saw that @Yvonne G has one sitting on bricks as a roof. Can I do that with the VE? Lens up or down?


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## Maro2Bear (Aug 8, 2020)

Yep,  for Radiant Heat Panels. Easy to install & control via a thermostat. It’s like having a nice good old fashioned hot water radiator gently warming your enclosure. No hot spots.


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## Blackdog1714 (Aug 8, 2020)

DJ Kirk said:


> I am on team CHE in this debate
> RHP's are overly expensive and unnecessary IMHO


Building my new enclosure I was setting up the CHE, but had to go take a phone call. Well it slipped down and landed flat on the plywood floor. 400 degrees plus cooked a hole in the plywood, but luckily the fire retardant insulation I used was. So I am team RHP!


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## Sue Ann (Aug 9, 2020)

CleanRiversDirtRoads said:


> Good evening everyone, and thank you in advanced for your consideration in regards to my inquiry.
> 
> I am a new member to tortoise forum, and I am looking for advice/opinions in regards to your experience with Ceramic Heat Emitters or Radiant Heat Panels for ambient/night heat in closed containers for Sulcata and Leopard tortoises. I am leaning toward CHE due to cost effectiveness since I will have multiple enclosures, but I want to make sure that I am meeting all of the needs of the torts!
> 
> ...


I have. 17 mo Sulcata that I just moved outside full time. While he was inside I used a Che and was very happy. No problems as long it is controlled by a thermostat
In Dexters outdoor night box I have a Kane mat on the floor and an RHP on the ceiling.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 9, 2020)

ErinH said:


> I saw that @Yvonne G has one sitting on bricks as a roof. Can I do that with the VE? Lens up or down?



"Lens Down", make sure the thermostat prob is right there at the face of the RHP.


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## ErinH (Aug 11, 2020)

Kapidolo Farms said:


> "Lens Down", make sure the thermostat prob is right there at the face of the RHP.



Ok, thank you! So hot side sitting on the bricks is ok? Does it need to be a certain distance from the top of the shell?


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 12, 2020)

Both the 'sweeter heater' and 'Vivarium electronics' brands of RHP have a edge or lip that does not have the heat element inside. When I have placed these heaters on bricks they are on that edge. The part of the face where the internal 'heat' element is, does not sit on the brick. Please take a critical look at the videos. I think the placement of the thermostat prob will have a strong influence of the distance question. I place the prob so it is closer to the heat face of the RHP than the tortoises will be able to get to when the RHP is overhead.

I can imagine with a little critical thinking you'll notice I don't use that as a consideration (prob closer than tortoise) when I mount the RHP on a wall. In this case I am not trying to create an ambient temp with the RHP, and fully intend for the tortoise to lean against it for the heat. 

When overhead I am intending to run the RHP at higher temps, to both make a 'basking' spot and heat the enclosure, while when on a wall the RHP is just for the tortoise to directly warm itself.



ErinH said:


> Ok, thank you! So hot side sitting on the bricks is ok? Does it need to be a certain distance from the top of the shell?


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## Minority2 (Aug 12, 2020)

Kapidolo Farms said:


> When overhead I am intending to run the RHP at higher temps, to both make a 'basking' spot and heat the enclosure, while when on a wall the RHP is just for the tortoise to directly warm itself.



Please let us know how that works out if and when you manage to make this happen. Please also include comparison costs of your typical setup vs one that is achievable with only reptile heating panels alone. That's going be some groundbreaking stuff.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 13, 2020)

I have posted both ways of applying RHP's here on TFO, at least once, if not more. Specific research requests cost $20.00/hr cash up front, . Costs are posted by myself, I sell RHP, as well as from Reptile Basics.


Minority2 said:


> Please let us know how that works out if and when you manage to make this happen. Please also include comparison costs of your typical setup vs one that is achievable with only reptile heating panels alone. That's going be some groundbreaking stuff.


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## Minority2 (Aug 13, 2020)

Kapidolo Farms said:


> I have posted both ways of applying RHP's here on TFO, at least once, if not more. Specific research requests cost $20.00/hr cash up front, . Costs are posted by myself, I sell RHP, as well as from Reptile Basics.



Do you have a link of the thread(s)? Googling didn't reveal much results and I don't know if I have the patience to search through all 4900+ of your replies.  I remember @DeanS saying he was going to come out with a detailed guide on how to use only reptile heating panels as the only heating source but I don't kept up with the forum to know if he's completed it or not.


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## ErinH (Aug 14, 2020)

Kapidolo Farms said:


> Both the 'sweeter heater' and 'Vivarium electronics' brands of RHP have a edge or lip that does not have the heat element inside. When I have placed these heaters on bricks they are on that edge. The part of the face where the internal 'heat' element is, does not sit on the brick. Please take a critical look at the videos. I think the placement of the thermostat prob will have a strong influence of the distance question. I place the prob so it is closer to the heat face of the RHP than the tortoises will be able to get to when the RHP is overhead.
> 
> I can imagine with a little critical thinking you'll notice I don't use that as a consideration (prob closer than tortoise) when I mount the RHP on a wall. In this case I am not trying to create an ambient temp with the RHP, and fully intend for the tortoise to lean against it for the heat.
> 
> When overhead I am intending to run the RHP at higher temps, to both make a 'basking' spot and heat the enclosure, while when on a wall the RHP is just for the tortoise to directly warm itself.



Ok thanks! I was thinking maybe the bricks might soak up some heat, but read in the instructions not to touch anything to the lens, so that makes sense.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Aug 17, 2020)

The brick(s) do indeed adsorb heat from the panel and re-radiate it. IR (infra Red) radiation travels through the air and is not visible. Just because the heat panel face is not (and should not) lay on the brick does not mean it does not heat the brick, which then re-radiates that heat.



ErinH said:


> Ok thanks! I was thinking maybe the bricks might soak up some heat, but read in the instructions not to touch anything to the lens, so that makes sense.


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