# Blockage/Massive Urate Stone- Cause for alarm?



## ScStange891 (Dec 18, 2017)

Hi, All,

Just had a little episode with my Lini today. So he (not sure of gender yet but easier to refer that way) ate some normal breakfast, consisting of spring mix (he likes the dark purple leaves), and probably 2 full small pellets of Mazuri. He then proceeded over to his basking spot and passed a pasty/liquid urate and took a pee.

Usually he passes urates every day, usually just as liquid, so I didn't think dehydration was an issue, but I figured since he peed, maybe he should soak, so I put him in his tub for a half hour.

Usually he poops in there. Sometimes twice, but nothing. When I went to dry him off I noticed his cloaca was enlarged, and on closer inspection was blocked with what seemed to be a MASSIVE urate stone. I put him down, and he was clearly trying to push, but couldn't.

Long story short, I put him back in the soak for an hour with his heat bulb overhead to maintain temperature. About 45 min in, he passed the stone (I was correct that it was a stone, Attached picture), along with what looks like diarrhea (looks like undigested fiber, along with parts of substrate that were accidentally swallowed).




Should a urate this big in comparison to my little guy be cause for worry? 

Also, some background facts: 
-I use a coco coir substrate, sometimes if he pushes his food off the dish, he'll heat off of it
-I make water available daily, but he hasn't touched it once. I have cameras on the enclosure to rewind.
-Diet is usually spring mix supplemented with Mazuri LS and occasionally ZooMed Grassland. I add in collard occasionally.
-He is soaked daily, for at least 30 min. Most of the time it's closer to 45. He always drinks, and passes wet urates regularly, which made me think dehydration wasn't a problem until today...

The immediate drama has passed, but I'd still like to hear people's thoughts... What can I do from a diet side to prevent this?

Thanks!!!


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## wellington (Dec 18, 2017)

Yes, it is a concern. Your diet for him needs improving. Bigger variety, more natural if possible, and less spinach which is usually in spring mix


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## counting (Dec 18, 2017)

NOT an expert.

How long have you had him? Is it possible he was started dry and this stone is a result of early conditions/prior chronic dehydration?


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## ScStange891 (Dec 18, 2017)

I’ve had him for about a month. I got him from Tyler at tortoisesupply who slams his babies daily, so I’m not sure. The only other thing I could think of is maybe it’s a calcification, as he has been going at his cuttlebone a lot.

The spring mix I get doesn’t have spinach but it does have Kale. Should the kale be removed?

I’m going out today to grab a bunch of the greens mentioned in the Russian care sheet on the forum. Pretty sure I misread it the first time and thought that all of those things were partly in mixes, or mazuri, but I’m gonna remedy that asap. 

Thanks for input all!


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## Tom (Dec 18, 2017)

ScStange891 said:


> I got him from Tyler at tortoisesupply who slams his babies daily, so I’m not sure.



@TylerStewart 
Tyler, is this accurate? Was this baby soaked every day?


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## ScStange891 (Dec 18, 2017)

That's what the "current care" on the website says. I'm assuming a big part of this was that I didn't give him a varied enough diet, which I'm remedying now.


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## Bambam1989 (Dec 18, 2017)

Aside from his cuttle bone, is he receiving any other calcium supplement?


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## ScStange891 (Dec 18, 2017)

Yes. Since he barely ever touched the cuttle bone (until maybe a few days ago) I sprinkle a pinch of calcium powder on his food a few times a week.


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## Bambam1989 (Dec 18, 2017)

My theory is that it is a calcium stone. Kale has a large amount of calcium, pair that with the extra from supplements and cuttle bone and it may have just been too much.
I would stop with the calcium supplement, still offer cuttle bone and the kale can still be part of his varied diet... 
Others with more experience may have a different opinion.


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## Markw84 (Dec 18, 2017)

Bambam1989 said:


> My theory is that it is a calcium stone. Kale has a large amount of calcium, pair that with the extra from supplements and cuttle bone and it may have just been too much.
> I would stop with the calcium supplement, still offer cuttle bone and the kale can still be part of his varied diet...
> Others with more experience may have a different opinion.


There is considerable research showing stones in tortoises are not at all calcium based, but purine based. So it is protein that seems to be the culprit. A diet too high in protein would be a more likely cause of stones.


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## Bambam1989 (Dec 18, 2017)

Markw84 said:


> There is considerable research showing stones in tortoises are not at all calcium based, but purine based. So it is protein that seems to be the culprit. A diet too high in protein would be a more likely cause of stones.


Hmm I shall do some reading on this, thank you.


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## Tom (Dec 18, 2017)

Bambam1989 said:


> My theory is that it is a calcium stone. Kale has a large amount of calcium, pair that with the extra from supplements and cuttle bone and it may have just been too much.
> I would stop with the calcium supplement, still offer cuttle bone and the kale can still be part of his varied diet...
> Others with more experience may have a different opinion.



@Will corrected me on this a few months ago. Excess calcium is excreted out and does not form "stones" like this. These urate stones are the result of protein digestion without enough water.

I don't want to jump to false conclusions though, and that is why I invited Tyler to come here and tell us how the baby was started and how often it was soaked.


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## ScStange891 (Dec 18, 2017)

In addition to giving him a more varied diet, is there any “trick” to getting him to drink more water?

I think part of the problem is that I had one of those zoomed “ramp” dishes for water, and to be honest, only filled it a bit because of drowning risk (that thing looks like a death trap for flipping over.)

I remedied that by putting in a terra cotta saucer this evening, but it was after Lini retired for the night, so no time to observe. 

What’s a safe amount of water (height wise) to make sure there’s enough for him to drink, but not too much that he’ll drown should he flip?


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## Moozillion (Dec 18, 2017)

ScStange891 said:


> In addition to giving him a more varied diet, is there any “trick” to getting him to drink more water?
> 
> I think part of the problem is that I had one of those zoomed “ramp” dishes for water, and to be honest, only filled it a bit because of drowning risk (that thing looks like a death trap for flipping over.)
> 
> ...


Cucumber contains LOTS of water- no other nutrition, really, but lots of water. I don't have a Russian tort, though- I have a Hermann's. My tort LOVES cucumber and would eat it all day, every day if I let her!!!!!!


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## Tom (Dec 18, 2017)

ScStange891 said:


> In addition to giving him a more varied diet, is there any “trick” to getting him to drink more water?
> 
> I think part of the problem is that I had one of those zoomed “ramp” dishes for water, and to be honest, only filled it a bit because of drowning risk (that thing looks like a death trap for flipping over.)
> 
> ...


 I use terra cotta saucers that are bigger around than the tortoise and I fill them to the brim.

I would take the ramped bowl back and tell them why. They literally are tortoise death traps. As in, tortoises die in them regularly. They are great for lizards and snakes, but no good for tortoises.


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## ScStange891 (Dec 19, 2017)

Since it's been a day, I figured I'd give a quick update... He acted (basically) normal for the rest of yesterday. Went to bed slightly earlier than usual, but I figured it was a rough day.

Today he's been completely normal. Back to 2 dark poops and a watery urate during his soak, then ravenous for food after. I'm going to try working on his humidity/water consumption today (thankfully this happened when I took the week off from work).

Please keep any commentary/suggestions coming. I'm obviously a newbie and I want to do whatever I can to do right by my little one.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 19, 2017)

On the 'stone', let it dry, then smell it. I don't know what else to suggest less some expensive test by a vet. The protein based stones are common in tortoises, associated with too little hydration. Calcium stones are unknown. 

Too little hydration does not sound right in your situation. But then again. Tortoises loose water through respiration which goes back to how they spend their resting time, underground or with their face on some kind of moist something, grass, soil, etc. 

Undigested fiber is what you should see. That's what makes fiber, "fiber" it helps with movement in the digestive track of small collections of otherwise squishy food. A bolus. 

More than anything else what I have read here from the OP is that they were diligent in observation of their tortoise, and acted appropriately. I have not had Russian tortoises for quite awhile now. With a bunch of little leopards I have then with water access all the time and do a long soak once or twice a week. I just get what I have come to think of as "large green worms" (think about it). No urates at all, and I offer a higher level of protein than most "authorities" would suggest. But young growing tortoises need it. I also have a pretty wet substrate of coco chunks, not Coir. Chucks allow air contact even when it is very wet. and when they let their little faces rest on it they are breathing high moisture content air.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 19, 2017)

Will said:


> On the 'stone', let it dry, then smell it. I don't know what else to suggest less some expensive test by a vet. The protein based stones are common in tortoises, associated with too little hydration. Calcium stones are unknown.
> 
> Too little hydration does not sound right in your situation. But then again. Tortoises loose water through respiration which goes back to how they spend their resting time, underground or with their face on some kind of moist something, grass, soil, etc.
> 
> ...




What are we looking for in the smell?


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## ScStange891 (Dec 19, 2017)

The smell was...chemical? I don’t know how to best describe it. Like, almost like ammonia? Kinda like a cross between ammonia and hand sanitizer? It’s hard to describe but it definitely wasn’t odorless, that’s for sure.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 19, 2017)

I'm just guessing here, but maybe ammonia indicated bladder stone???? @Will


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## Kapidolo Farms (Dec 19, 2017)

Ammonia is a great descriptor indicating urea/urates. So very likely not calcium. 

If I prompted what to 'smell for' I would have tilted the response. 

This is what I have done many times at various meeting of turtle/tortoise clubs when people bring 'stones' to show.


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## TylerStewart (Dec 19, 2017)

Tom said:


> @TylerStewart
> Tyler, is this accurate? Was this baby soaked every day?


Sorry just seeing this, but all our babies are soaked pretty much daily, or 5ish days per week at a minimum. They are kept on an always moist substrate, 3" and 4" PVC pipes cut in half the long way for hides that are halfway buried in the coir substrate, and right now they are under twin Reptisun 10.0 bulbs and a 60W spot bulb (95-105 range directly under those bulbs at tortoise shell height). Ambient room temp about 72 night and day (Russians cool to room temp at night). We mostly use the ZooMed grassland tortoise food for their "commercial" diet, mixed with mostly dandelion and endive with occasional turnip greens or spring mix maybe once a week (we chop everything up in a 5 gallon bucket and feed just about all the babies of all species the same things). 

This stone is very strange, I never really see them with babies, and that baby wasn't all that old.... I don't know what to "blame it on." We don't use water bowls in the cages anymore, as multiple times we have had babies flip over and drown even in very low sided bowls, 1/4" of water. They use their heads to right themselves and end up drowning. We just soak them instead where we can check them every few minutes.


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## ScStange891 (Dec 20, 2017)

Just a quick update again...

Another day with no issues. Found 1 big and 2 normal poops in his enclosure from yesterday, and he made 2 more in his bath just now, as well as another liquid urate.

Appetite is normal (which for him is absolutely voraciously attacking anything in his path), and he's up 3 grams from 9 days ago (not sure how fast is "normal" for weight gain, but I figured I'd include that tidbit).

Based on care sheets and suggestions, I've added other greens to the mix for him, such as endives, mustard, dandelion, and collard, as that was the most available at the local Wegman's. I'll check other places to see what other "Russian-friendly" greens I can find as well.

Today I plan on lightly experimenting with "partially" closing the chamber by putting a glass pane over the grates in the tortoise home, in order to see how it effects humidity. The Reptisun 10.0 tube bulb is not blocked by the glass though, and there's about an inch gap through which the excess humidity/heat can dissipate (I don't want it to be airtight so as to make it a heat box.) I have a couple hygrometers in the enclosure ready to tell me where the humidity is at.

He still didn't touch the water dish yesterday, and given Tyler's drowning concern, I may remove it if he doesn't touch it today (I'm home all day, so I can keep tabs to make sure he doesn't flip).

I'm probably going to give another soak later in the day. While we're not *positive* he was dehydrated, I don't think extra soaking will hurt anything, and if he was, it can only help, right?

I'll keep you all posted.


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