# The Scientific Method



## SteveW (Apr 12, 2018)

Several posts of late have requested information that is free of personal opinion and instead based on scientific research. This viewpoint has my complete sympathy, both because I share it and also because it will go largely unrequited. For most of the issues of prime concern, rigorous research just does not exist. (“Half of these hatchings were soaked daily. The other half were given a placebo”)

This leaves us in the unfortunate position of basing decision making on the anecdotal experiences, both negative and positive, of other “chelonianists” (just coined that, but I like it). This can feel uncomfortably like an echo chamber of self-reinforcing conjecture and opinion and the anonymity of the internet does not help. 

So with all that as preface, I am interested in what you fellow ‘chelonianists’ (it’s going to catch on) consider when considering information, from the forum or elsewhere.


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## Maro2Bear (Apr 12, 2018)

For the most part when it comes to information regarding tortoise care and feeding and lighting and housing, especially for Sulcatas, I trust in the information that @Tom so willingly offers up. Of course, there are a few other trusted and knowledgeable “Cheloniansts” out there @Yvonne G and @wellington easily come to mind, and @zovick for veterinary issues with torts, and of course @Iochroma for all things plants.


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## no one (Apr 12, 2018)

And not to forget @Markw84... 

But also I search for information all over the internet and use my common sence. Do enough research on others experience with Tortoises and you get knowledge. You have to be willing to read, A LOT, I think... And ask questions when you don't know.


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## Bambam1989 (Apr 12, 2018)

For any source of information to be credible in my eyes I look at a number of possible factors.
How old is this "information". There is no doubt that our knowledge of torts has grown over the years and so newer info may be more accurate than older.
Where is this info coming from? A simple "keeper" may have successfully raised a couple of torts but to me that does not make one an expert. I want my info to be from people who have raised and studied these animals for a number of years. They need to have experience with what works AND what doesn't.
Can the source back up their claims? For example, simply stating that humidity plays an important role in preventing pyramiding is not enough. Until you can "back it up" it's nothing more than a theory. @Tom had a theory about humidity and then tested it. He showed us his results and then others were able to reason out WHY with logical reasoning and further studies ( @Markw84 for example) . To me, if you can't explain something in a reasonable way and support your claims, your going to lose credibility.
Does it make sense? One of the things that drove me to join this forum was because I kept finding "care" instructions that just sounded illogical. For example, a sulcata should not be given water because it gets all the water it needs from its food. It rains everywhere, maybe not as frequently in some places. That means that at some point even the driest areas are going to have water standing at some point. Every animal should have the opportunity to be fully hydrated while in captivity. Personally I have yet to hear the cause of death being "it just drank too much water" for any animal. 
The facts and recommended care given here was always backed up with reasonable facts. And a civilized debate on a topic was welcomed.
I hope that makes sense. In my sleep deprived brain it did..


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## Tom (Apr 12, 2018)

SteveW said:


> Several posts of late have requested information that is free of personal opinion and instead based on scientific research. This viewpoint has my complete sympathy, both because I share it and also because it will go largely unrequited. For most of the issues of prime concern, rigorous research just does not exist. (“Half of these hatchings were soaked daily. The other half were given a placebo”)
> 
> This leaves us in the unfortunate position of basing decision making on the anecdotal experiences, both negative and positive, of other “chelonianists” (just coined that, but I like it). This can feel uncomfortably like an echo chamber of self-reinforcing conjecture and opinion and the anonymity of the internet does not help.
> 
> So with all that as preface, I am interested in what you fellow ‘chelonianists’ (it’s going to catch on) consider when considering information, from the forum or elsewhere.



I've pondered this dilemma many times. I think the subject of what makes someone credible is going to vary greatly from person to person. For me, it adds credibility when someone can repeatedly demonstrate with print and pics that their info is correct and valid, and why opposing views are not valid and incorrect. BamBam's example is a good one. Here is what happens with no water, and here is what happens with lots of water. Pics, weights, measurements and explanation "sell" it to me. I've seen the damage caused by dehydration first hand, and I've seen great health encouraged by good hydration, so I also have my own frame of reference to compare to. Thus, a person claiming that hydration was important for baby tortoises would gain credibility with me, while a person claiming they get all their water from food and need dry conditions would lose credibility with me. Repeat this cycle for every assertion made, and a pattern emerges. MarkW knows what he's taking about and Andy Highfield doesn't.

I keep waiting for the formation of a Chelonian Research Institute where large numbers of dedicated chelonianists can get to work solving all the mysteries of hatchling care, incubation temps and details, pyramiding, diet and nutrition, hydration, substrate choices, cfl studies, incandescent bulb desiccation studies, optimal temperatures, and so much more… Anyone here know Bill Gates? Maybe we can get him to donate a billion or two???


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## no one (Apr 12, 2018)

On a site note, a dog can die of drinking to much water. I had a Border Collie and got him a Tortoise shaped little pool when it was very hot. He went nuts cause he loved water. Drinking way to much while playing. That went so wrong!! Luckily I realized just in time what was going on and my husband let him barf out all the water. That was a lot!! Some dogs did die that way, I googled it.


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## Yvonne G (Apr 12, 2018)

I totally trusted Tom's info about keeping babies in very humid conditions. Reason for my trust was he "experimented" with hatchlings and showed his experimentation here on the Forum for all of us to see and learn from.

When I first got interested in turtles and tortoises there was no internet. I joined the Turtle and Tortoise Society International. It was based in Arizona, and leaned heavily towards desert tortoises, as "exotics" were not popular yet. Their articles and first hand experiences were valuable to me as a brand new keeper, and I learned most of my knowledge about chelonians from them. 

Now, some fifty or sixty years later, most (but not all) of what I read has been proved not good. But that's the nature of most things. Nothing stays the same, and it shouldn't. We should all be open to learning new and better ways - about everything, not just turtles and tortoises.


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## Bambam1989 (Apr 12, 2018)

*debora* said:


> On a site note, a dog can die of drinking to much water. I had a Border Collie and got him a Tortoise shaped little pool when it was very hot. He went nuts cause he loved water. Drinking way to much while playing. That went so wrong!! Luckily I realized just in time what was going on and my husband let him barf out all the water. That was a lot!! Some dogs did die that way, I googled it.


Not disagreeing cause I don't have anything to back it up with, but is it possible that in many of these cases the animal was probably over heated and the sudden drop of body temp from ingesting the water to quickly and to much at once is the cause of death. Technically "shock" not "over watered toxicity"(wow I totally made that phrase up)


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## wellington (Apr 12, 2018)

I did my research on the internet when I got my first tortoise. I even listened to the breeder I purchased from. As things weren't going good, pyramiding, I kept searching. I stopped when I found this forum and Tom, who went over and above to help me. I wouldn't waste my time looking anyplace else again. Personally, all the info and help you'll ever need is right here and it's good, up to date, info. 
Btw, the proof is here too.


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## no one (Apr 12, 2018)

In dogs drinking too much causes electrolyte levels to drop and the swelling of the brain and other organs.


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## WithLisa (Apr 12, 2018)

Bambam1989 said:


> Not disagreeing cause I don't have anything to back it up with, but is it possible that in many of these cases the animal was probably over heated and the sudden drop of body temp from ingesting the water to quickly and to much at once is the cause of death. Technically "shock" not "over watered toxicity"(wow I totally made that phrase up)


Water poisoning is not so unusual. My friend's dog also tends to drink too much, no matter if it's hot or cold, she has to be especially alert now that he's getting old. 
And it's not just dogs. An acquaintance of mine even needed an emergency doctor once because of circulatory failure (after deciding to drink lots of water because it's said to be healthy).


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## SteveW (Apr 12, 2018)

Thank you all for your input. I have found it challenging to communicate contrary to Petco care sheets or Camp Keenan without recourse to argument from authority or bandwagon or any other logical fallacies. 
My best answer thus far is the ‘preponderance of evidence’, such as demonstrated success with multiple individuals over a period of time. 
Did no one like my placebo joke? I was kind of proud of it.


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## Bambam1989 (Apr 12, 2018)

WithLisa said:


> Water poisoning is not so unusual. My friend's dog also tends to drink too much, no matter if it's hot or cold, she has to be especially alert now that he's getting old.
> And it's not just dogs. An acquaintance of mine even needed an emergency doctor once because of circulatory failure (after deciding to drink lots of water because it's said to be healthy).


Interesting. Always good to learn something new.


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## Tom (Apr 12, 2018)

SteveW said:


> Thank you all for your input. I have found it challenging to communicate contrary to Petco care sheets or Camp Keenan without recourse to argument from authority or bandwagon or any other logical fallacies.
> My best answer thus far is the ‘preponderance of evidence’, such as demonstrated success with multiple individuals over a period of time.
> Did no one like my placebo joke? I was kind of proud of it.


I liked it Steve. I liked the whole post.


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## SteveW (May 5, 2018)

I wonder, is there a scientific way to determine when you need a larger soaking tub?


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## SteveW (May 5, 2018)

Her stock tank is being moved and she’s not thrilled with sub-par accommodations


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## Anyfoot (May 12, 2018)

I don’t discard anyone’s opinion, I just go away and try and prove it to myself if I think it has credit.


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## Team Gomberg (May 12, 2018)

I look at the results produced by the person giving the information/opinion.

If I like the results produced then I'll follow the advice.


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