# Tortoise dying of old age?



## ZEROPILOT

I pretty recently acquired two female tortoises from a breeder who had them for eight years and is not sure how old they are, but guessed 16-20 years old. This, for my point, could actually mean 30-35.
One has acted strangely soon after I got them. I have taken her to the vet twice. (Two different vets) No issues found. She just will not eat. She has taken a bite or two out of a mango and a banana, but most days will not eat. She has been treated for worms because she may or may not have had them. About a half dose because of her weakened state. No change. She walks a little and sits in her pool.
Has anyone lost an adult tortoise to what seems like old age?
She has less and less energy each day and I think she is slipping away.
I'm at a loss as to what to do.
P.S. I have already tried every food item I can imagine.


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## Tidgy's Dad

This sad story just keeps going doesn't it?
i can't remember if you tried the carrot baby food soak to get some nutrition into her when she drinks or not.
You may have to force feed her at this point, though hopefully someone else will have a better solution.
Really hoping you girl makes it, I know how concerned you are, heartbreaking.
good luck.


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## ZEROPILOT

Soaking would take a very large bucket of baby food as she is close to 15" long. She does drink. And she eats just enough to not starve. Just enough.
Thanks. Luck is all I still have.


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## mike taylor

What kind of tortoise?


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## ZEROPILOT

Redfoot. Suriname Female.


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## dmmj

Fecal? Blood tests?
Two vets visits, but what did they consist of?


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## ZEROPILOT

X rays blood work no fecal never pooped I sent her a photo of some worms I thought she passed and purchased Panacur. Dosed per her instructions.


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## ZEROPILOT

Rain storm. Misting twice daily in the isolation pen.
Temps stay over 80 and up to 88 in the sun. There's also a house for shade and a pool.
This is a day that she took 2 bites of watermelon.


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## Kapidolo Farms

Tortoises are biological immortal (in an actuarial sense). To have one die of old age is not likely. Something kills them. Just because the vet couldn't figure it does not mean there is not some disease process at work.

The range of diseases know is a subset of the diseases they can/do get/have. Then there is nutritional issues which are not exactly disease. And lastly I think they have a feedback system that leads to physiological depression, not emotional like we might experience, but the same physiology when we are depressed.

Tortoise have a strong mapping capability. That they are long lived would lead me to think that their mapping has some adaptability to it, as their natural environment will change over their life. However a 100% change, like when a tortoise is moved from one collection to another is not likely within that adaptability.

When I acquire a new animal I will most often limit it's area so that it won't wander around looking for the new place to translate from the old place. Sometimes this is not required, as some tortoises do well with 100% change of the map. If that is it though, that the tortoises is 'confused' by their map not working, and they get depressed, you have to help them along. Show them to water, food and warm spot several times.

When I acquire an animal that shows what I consider disorientation. I make the enclosure small, so everything is within view of everything else. I will house them singly so they don't have any con-specific stress. Sometimes these extra measures are the difference.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

ZEROPILOT said:


> I pretty recently acquired two female tortoises from a breeder who had them for eight years and is not sure how old they are, but guessed 16-20 years old. This, for my point, could actually mean 30-35.
> One has acted strangely soon after I got them. I have taken her to the vet twice. (Two different vets) No issues found. She just will not eat. She has taken a bite or two out of a mango and a banana, but most days will not eat. She has been treated for worms because she may or may not have had them. About a half dose because of her weakened state. No change. She walks a little and sits in her pool.
> Has anyone lost an adult tortoise to what seems like old age?
> She has less and less energy each day and I think she is slipping away.
> I'm at a loss as to what to do.
> P.S. I have already tried every food item I can imagine.


Did you ask the " Breeder " what he feed ? Cause it sounds like the tort maybe addicted to dog food .


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## tortadise

How close are you to UFL? I'd do a cloacal swab and get a PCR done. What has the rain been like there too? This spring here in Texas has been incredibly wet. Lots of fungi new and common species I've seen. Could be a poisoning of some sort that won't be yielding on physical examination, or fecal investigation. At this state I'd stop the Protozoa treatment, it's more than likely adding stress on the stomach and overall well being of the animal.


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## DawnH

I really have no idea what I am talking about but as a mom to children I have to ask... Is there something that can be given to her to restore her intestinal flora that has been taken out by antibiotics and stress? I wonder if you could work this from that angle if it might help. I seem to remember you saying you have tried Food Grade Diatomaceous Earth as well. It might take a while but I wonder if that option would be good to put back on the table...?

Regardless, I hope you find your answers. I cannot even imagine how stressful and heartbreaking this is for you. She is lucky to have you!


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## Tom

Will spelled it out much more eloquently than I am capable of, but I agree with him.

There are a lot of tortoise diseases circulating around out there right now and some are not easily diagnosed.

I've spent thousands of dollars and almost two years trying to diagnose what is wrong with an 18" SA leopard that was given to me. After failure to find the issue and a fair amount of desperation, I started trying to "diagnose through treatment". All of my efforts have resulted in failure. Every test shows there is nothing wrong and no bad bugs, but she's clearly got some bad juju going on.


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## mike taylor

I think they get attached to a area or keeper . But I would bump up the temps a little and offer up some protein to boost energy . I know in humans if your gut is off they make pills that have good bacteria in them. Guess what the pills are made of ? That's right human poop, well the bacteria in healthy human poop . I don't know if her good bacteria has been washed out by to much wrong foods ,but you can try and feed her healthy red foot poop . To get good bacteria in her . They love eating poop anyway . I don't see it hurting anything to give it a try .


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## Anyfoot

Hi

I agree with Will. I had a new tort that could not find his way around, disorientated. He would follow other torts out of his home then get lost, I left him once and he was a good hour wondering around, we had to put him close to his home, starting actually putting him on the entrance then further away bit by bit. Weird, we didn't think nothing other than he was getting lost, now I just read @Will post this makes sense. He's now out and about as normal. 
Is the other female OK. Have you isolated her(if so maybe put other female in with her). Can you get in touch with the old owner and find out what she was fed and what sort of environment she was in. Lastly(asking a lot) can you post a list of every food you tried to feed her. 
Sad face for you. Dread the day something like this happens to me.


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## johnsonnboswell

They can become anorexic


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## mikeylazer

Will is right. They, like lobsters, do not have an "old age" per say. They don't really reach a certain age like us and pass peacefully, but can essentially "live forever" (emphasis on "essentially"), so the age here is not the issue. I hope it all works out.


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## Gillian M

Tidgy's Dad said:


> This sad story just keeps going doesn't it?
> i can't remember if you tried the carrot baby food soak to get some nutrition into her when she drinks or not.
> You may have to force feed her at this point, though hopefully someone else will have a better solution.
> Really hoping you girl makes it, I know how concerned you are, heartbreaking.
> good luck.


 Do you (here I mean anyone at the forum) think a tort can be fed by _FORCE_? Personally I don't, and I'm talking after experience. OLI will eat nothing but lettuce. I've tried all sorts of things, but....*NO* *WAY*!

Sorry to have just read your sad story, Zeropilot. *Try* to calm down.....though I know words are easy..


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## ZEROPILOT

The old owner is someone I'm still in touch with. He fed produce being discarded by grocery stores. 
When she does eat she only eats when she's in her house and looking out and I must place the food in front of her. If she's outside she looks but then steps over it.
Today she passed up on her rabbi, banana,cooked plantain and red pepper.
I've got some really soft cantaloupe for tomorrow.
I'd like to put her in with her other "sisters" but I'm still worried about them also getting sick.
At 6.3kg her weight has not changed in ten days. However she weighed 6.9kg when I got her.
Thanks everyone.


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## Tom

Gillian Moore said:


> Do you (here I mean anyone at the forum) think a tort can be fed by _FORCE_? Personally I don't, and I'm talking after experience. OLI will eat nothing but lettuce. I've tried all sorts of things, but....*NO* *WAY*!
> 
> Sorry to have just read your sad story, Zeropilot. *Try* to calm down.....though I know words are easy..



Yes. They can be force fed, but its very stressful and only used as a last resort. Its usually pointless because unless the reason why the tortoise is not eating is discovered and corrected, force feeding won't do any good anyway. In other words, there is always a reason why they aren't eating. Forcing food into them doesn't address this reason.


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## ZEROPILOT

Tom said:


> Yes. They can be force fed, but its very stressful and only used as a last resort. Its usually pointless because unless the reason why the tortoise is not eating is discovered and corrected, force feeding won't do any good anyway. In other words, there is always a reason why they aren't eating. Forcing food into them doesn't address this reason.


Thanks, Tom. Like I said, her weight is steady right now. She nibbles a few times week but then wont eat that food item again. Just enough to remain alive.


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## Anyfoot

mmm. I here what you are saying with putting her in with her sister, I was thinking if your vets couldn't find anything wrong maybe its not a physical health illness, maybe depression. Just guessing. I personally would try some foods that are supposedly bad for them but they cant resist. Any food is better than no food i would have thought. I give mine sweetcorn once a month, they go mad for it, as though they become possessed.


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## ZEROPILOT

Yep. She wouldn't eat corn. 
I'd love to place her with the others.


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## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yep. She wouldn't eat corn.
> I'd love to place her with the others.


How long has she been like this.


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## ZEROPILOT

I've lost track. Maybe a month. Month and a half. She might have stopped eating sooner and I didn't notice. But I removed her over a month ago.


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## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> I've lost track. Maybe a month. Month and a half. She might have stopped eating sooner and I didn't notice. But I removed her over a month ago.


Did you vet do an xray, could she be gravid or egg bound. Just throwing ideas in the pot for you.


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## newCH

Ok, im gonna jump out I to left field & you all might think that im gonna ask a stupid question here, but - Could she be depressed and miss her former 
owner ? 
Maybe not all torts see us owners as just the hand that appears to deliver food. Sure, food is nice but maybe she misses his voice, etc. We love torts and think they are great animals but this could be a big change she might not have been ready for ?
Since you still have contact with him, I would either ask him to visit or
even try taping his voice and play it for her. I guess this might sound crazy
to many of you,, but then again not trying would be a shame also.


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## Anyfoot

newCH said:


> Ok, im gonna jump out I to left field & you all might think that im gonna ask a stupid question here, but - Could she be depressed and miss her former
> owner ?
> Maybe not all torts see us owners as just the hand that appears to deliver food. Sure, food is nice but maybe she misses his voice, etc. We love torts and think they are great animals but this could be a big change she might not have been ready for ?
> Since you still have contact with him, I would either ask him to visit or
> even try taping his voice and play it for her. I guess this might sound crazy
> to many of you,, but then again not trying would be a shame also.


I also have a crazy mind and thought to take the tort back to last owner to see if there is a change. Bit drastic, but not as drastic as loosing her


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## ZEROPILOT

The owner didn't spend any time with them. He had 44 at once.
I did get her xrays. We were looking for eggs or maybe a rock. It showed nothing. Good lungs. Empty gut.
Could she miss the whole pack thing?
She was 1 of 44. Now she is 1 of 4.


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## leigti

Maybe she is just not used to human contact at all. And you are paying more attention to her than he ever did and she's scared. Either that or get 40 more tortoises.


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## leigti

Please don't think I'm making light of this. I would be very worried about this tortoise. But I don't have any other suggestions.


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## DawnH

40 down to 4 has got to be weird for her. If it were me I would put her back with the others. She has been checked out and she sounds a bit depressed (if torts can get depressed!) Regardless, it has got to be strange for her.


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## newCH

Hey we should start a "Tort Psychology 101" class !!! What are they REALLY thinking !


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## newCH

Maybe she needs to be with the other torts, so she can feel part of
the group again.


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## ZEROPILOT

From what I understand the herd has been split up and sold.
There won't be any going back. I checked in on her just now. It's 11 00 pm. She's sitting out in the open looking around.


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## wellington

If it were me, and there are no real reason to keep her by herself, I would put her back with the rest. I think, after looking at a lot of members with RF, that they are more social them most other torts. The Aldabra's seem to also be more social. I think if they are raised single, then they don't want or need others. But , if they are raised in a group, then they seem to do good in a group. Not all torts, but seems to be more in the RF, Aldabras.


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## leigti

Have you tried feeding her live food? Don't read foots eat protein? I'm just throwing this out there because I really don't know but my Boxturtle wouldn't eat much of anything unless it crawled. she liked the hunt, it really energized her. Is tube feeding a tortoise a realistic option or does it cause too much stress?


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## DawnH

ZEROPILOT said:


> From what I understand the herd has been split up and sold.
> There won't be any going back. I checked in on her just now. It's 11 00 pm. She's sitting out in the open looking around.



Sorry - to clarify I meant I would put her back with her sister and the others you have. Maybe that would help her. If she has been vet checked that would be my next step. See if that perks her up.


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## Anyfoot

If she's come out to look around at 11pm when its dark, she's scared. She sounds to me to feel secure with other torts. Like I said your vets have not found anything. The only think is. Did she fall into this state whilst she was with your other torts in the 1st place. I Also think you should try feeding some live stuff. Earthworms. Most of mine will eat them. 2 are actually scared of worms. Haha. They all go mad for waxworms. And a lot don't like this. But all mine turn wild with fuzzys. I have to watch them from biting each other when these are fed. I'm convinced if one gets blood on its leg another will assume the leg to be a fuzzy. I wash torts after fuzzy feed. The fuzzies are not live.


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## ZEROPILOT

Yes l. She became I'll while with the others.
I'm still worrying like Tom and others have suggested that it could be an illness still unditected


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## DawnH

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yes l. She became I'll while with the others.
> I'm still worrying like Tom and others have suggested that it could be an illness still unditected



Well, drat. I can't imagine how frustrating this is for you.


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## Gillian M

newCH said:


> Hey we should start a "Tort Psychology 101" class !!! What are they REALLY thinking !


 I wish we could!!


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## Gillian M

How is your tort today? Hope to hear there's been an improvement, *SOON* . Please keep us updated, and _GOOD_ _LUCK_!


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## cdmay

Zeropilot... sorry that I just now read this thread. 
After reading about your experiences I would confidently say that this girl is simply suffering from the stress of being moved into a new environment. Other keepers and authors have mentioned animals that became stressed and refused to eat--or ate only sparingly--for a very long time after being relocated or separated from 'their group'. 
I've heard of alligator snapping turtles, Galapagos tortoises, Testudo species and other turtles who have gone 'off feed' for long periods of time because (it is assumed anyway) of being moved, relocated and so forth.
Peter Pritchard had a juvenile alligator snapping turtle go a year without eating when he first acquired it 40 years ago. But I saw this very turtle last year and now he is a huge beast that is doing just fine. 

I respect the opinions of everyone else here but I would say to lay off all of the poking and prodding by vets. If the previous owner has kept this tortoise in good health for many years it is doubtful that some disease is at work. And as was mentioned, old age doesn't seem like the problem either since these animals live much longer than what you indicated.

Leave her be. Reduce the stress of handling and just offer her tempting items. I bet she comes around. Remember these animals live a long time, have a very slow metabolism and can go long periods of time with little or no food.

BTW, Tortadise mentioned the IC screening at the University of Florida. The university no longer deals with private keepers and you must first have your vet contact April Childress at UF-- in advance--- regarding the screening. Then the vet has to coordinate with the university and deal directly with them on their schedule.
Apparently, the lab at the University of Florida became overwhelmed with keepers wanting to send samples for screening and so they stopped the program.


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## ZEROPILOT

UF is many hundreds of miles away.
She has gone 4 days again now without a nibble.
If I knew for a fact that it was stress related I'd place her back in the group. But then monitoring if she eats or poops would be very hard.


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## ZEROPILOT

Someone here at work gave me some mushy, soft mangoes.
I'm going to put everyone together. (My male included) and let a Mango orgy of eating take place.
I'll photograph and report on how it goes.
If she wants to eat in a group...I'll know today.


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## Turtlepete

Hundred percent agree with Carl.

Perhaps the "mango orgy" (nice term ) will convince her to eat, if she's surrounded with other torts enjoying it….


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## ZEROPILOT

Everybody ate except Bertha. As I expected.
Pedro came out for some love and my smallest female, still named Julio, chased him back into his igloo.


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## G-stars

ZEROPILOT said:


> Everybody ate except Bertha. As I expected.
> Pedro came out for some love and my smallest female, still named Julio, chased him back into his igloo.



Sorry to hear this Ed, I've been reading most of your posts regarding this issue and it seems as it could be a combination of both stress and an unknown pathogen. 

Similar to why wild caught specimens sometimes don't make it. The pathogen is already in the system but does not do any harm because the immune system is healthy. But then we add high levels of stress and it all goes downhill.


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## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Everybody ate except Bertha. As I expected.
> Pedro came out for some love and my smallest female, still named Julio, chased him back into his igloo.


 Very sorry to have just read that your tort isn't well. What about a vet's visit?


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## ZEROPILOT

The gang together for dinner. The very first time some if them have seen each other and likely the only time I'll risk having Bertha in the mix.
Bertha has a B on her shell. The one with the R is Ruby. The male is in his igloo.
Bertha is off her food again. It's been five days this time.
She is still going down hill.
The small one is my pit bull, Julio. A name she got when I thought she was a he....
This will very likely be the only family photo. Ever.


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## ZEROPILOT

Gillian Moore said:


> Very sorry to have just read that your tort isn't well. What about a vet's visit?


Two vets and two visits. Nothing found.


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## ZEROPILOT

G-stars said:


> Sorry to hear this Ed, I've been reading most of your posts regarding this issue and it seems as it could be a combination of both stress and an unknown pathogen.
> 
> Similar to why wild caught specimens sometimes don't make it. The pathogen is already in the system but does not do any harm because the immune system is healthy. But then we add high levels of stress and it all goes downhill.


I agree. It's all up to her now if she makes it or not.


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## Yvonne G

ZEROPILOT said:


> UF is many hundreds of miles away.
> She has gone 4 days again now without a nibble.
> If I knew for a fact that it was stress related I'd place her back in the group. But then monitoring if she eats or poops would be very hard.



If it were my tortoise, I'd place her back with your group and leave her alone to get used to living in one place. You can put her in front of the food daily, and if she doesn't move throughout the day, put her back in the hiding place in the evening. But otherwise, leave her alone.


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## ZEROPILOT

Yvonne. There's still the unknown illness factor.
I can't risk having all four sick.
If I knew for a fact that it would be ok I would.
She's been in her isolation pen now for about a month.


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## mike taylor

Put a plexiglass divider in and let her see the others . Maybe she will eat thinking the others will munch her food .


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## Turtulas-Len

Have you tried offering something different like elephant ear (colocasia) or christmas cactus? My male red foot and 2 female yellow foots love them, sometimes something new works.


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## leigti

ZEROPILOT said:


> The gang together for dinner. The very first time some if them have seen each other and likely the only time I'll risk having Bertha in the mix.
> Bertha has a B on her shell. The one with the R is Ruby. The male is in his igloo.
> Bertha is off her food again. It's been five days this time.
> She is still going down hill.
> The small one is my pit bull, Julio. A name she got when I thought she was a he....
> This will very likely be the only family photo. Ever.


I am wondering something, if she was with the group at one time and no one else in the group seem sick then would you think that whatever is wrong with her may not be contagious?


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## ZEROPILOT

It's very likely that she is NOT the carrier of some plague. She seems to have gotten ill or at least gotten worse since I've had her. I'm just being cautious. Right now, keeping her alone is the best way I have to monitor her eating or not and my other two girls are very active and even aggressive. They bump each other over the best food and sleeping spots. Bertha is just too weak. 
If she starts to eat again, her options will open up.
The few items she has eaten, she didn't eat again. Yesterdays mango was a bad sign because it smelled very strongly and was very ripe. It should have made her eat. The others went crazy.


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## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Two vets and two visits. Nothing found.


 Very sorry.  Hope to hear better news soon, and good luck.


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## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Two vets and two visits. Nothing found.


 Regret to have 'heard' that there's nothing new.

Don't forget: *'HOPE* is the last thing to die.' So do not give up, ad again....*GOOD* *LUCK*! Please keep us updated.


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## ZEROPILOT

For the sake of writing about nothing or a chronicle of her death, I'll limit my posts to she's eating again or she has died.


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## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> For the sake of writing about nothing or a chronicle of her death, I'll limit my posts to she's eating again or she has died.


 Good luck!


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## newCH

We feel your frustration. Did you happen to try the mango on the
ground, in the pic its in a saucer ? Wish we knew what she was 
thinking.


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## ZEROPILOT

Yes. In fact she slept face down in it overnight.
Thank God the ants are gone!


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## ZEROPILOT

Yesterday I sprayed her with a water hose. Today she pooped. First poop I've EVER seen from her. It looks normal. No worms visible. I'm freezing it after I have a look through my microscope because I'm going to have my vet also check it out.
(She's not eating today either)


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## newCH

Great ! Maybe thats what she needed !


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## leigti

Set her out where she can get under the sprinkler, and put food out with her. St this poont anything is wpth a try.


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## peasinapod

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yesterday I sprayed her with a water hose. Today she pooped. First poop I've EVER seen from her. It looks normal. No worms visible. I'm freezing it after I have a look through my microscope because I'm going to have my vet also check it out.
> (She's not eating today either)


Wouldn't freezing harm the sample? (I am not sure so please correct me if I am wrong). At least she pooped. I hope she pulls through this!


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## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Yesterday I sprayed her with a water hose. Today she pooped. First poop I've EVER seen from her. It looks normal. No worms visible. I'm freezing it after I have a look through my microscope because I'm going to have my vet also check it out.
> (She's not eating today either)


 That's at least one step ahead, so just don't give up.


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## ZEROPILOT

It's hidden in the fridge. Bagged sealed and disguised. (Hidden from my wife)
She has a sprinkler system and a soaking pool. I'm not sure that these are related or just good timing.(the hosing and the poo.)
Today she acts like she doesn't have the energy to walk. She just pivots back and forth very slowly. I left her in the yard while I was cleaning out the ponds and an hour later she was still in the same spot. This is something new, too. And not something good.
This photo shows her rain mist system.
It turns on twice a day during the hottest parts of the day.


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## Anyfoot

I understand what your saying about keeping her separate, but can't you just put her sister back with her. Unless its something new or triggered through stress the sister would already have what ever it is, if there is anything. I agree with carl about stress of new environment. Is she showing any other ill effects like from the mouth or eyes. Have you tried a pinky cut in half so she can smell the blood. That brings out the animal in my reds.


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## ZEROPILOT

I'm afraid that things might be passed that stage.
She can no longer walk. And she no longer eats.
I fully expect her to die at this point.
She moves her head in slow jerky movements and can't seem to lift her own weight.
She is now under 6kg.
It really sucks.
Thanks for letting me vent here. It helps a lot.
She doesn't seem uncomfortable. But I'm not sure I'd be able to tell. I gave her a bath and she wiggled a little when I scrubbed her butt. Then stayed motionless.


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## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'm afraid that things might be passed that stage.
> She can no longer walk. And she no longer eats.
> I fully expect her to die at this point.
> She moves her head in slow jerky movements and can't seem to lift her own weight.
> She is now under 6kg.
> It really sucks.
> Thanks for letting me vent here. It helps a lot.
> She doesn't seem uncomfortable. But I'm not sure I'd be able to tell. I gave her a bath and she wiggled a little when I scrubbed her butt. Then stayed motionless.


Wow. I really feel for you. That's sad.


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## ZEROPILOT

It's the fact that I can't seem to help her that sucks. I'd do about anything for them.


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## Anyfoot

ZEROPILOT said:


> It's the fact that I can't seem to help her that sucks. I'd do about anything for them.


Some things are just out of our hands and no ones fault. You've tried everything that anyone could. It looks bleak but you never know.


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## leigti

ZEROPILOT said:


> It's the fact that I can't seem to help her that sucks. I'd do about anything for them.


Have you thought that it might be more humane to put her down? I know that is a very personal decision and I would never judge you one way or the other. Just a thought. I know it's hard to give up, there's always hope until they are gone. Would you consider getting a necropsy done if she did pass away? I guess probably nothing would really be found if the lab work isn't showing anything. I really feel for you, you're in a very tough spot. I don't know what I would do in your situation.


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## newCH

Sorry to hear she's not doing well. You certainly put in the extra effort !


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## ZEROPILOT

I'd be leery about anything being found from a necropsy.
Remember I've already spent enough money to buy a good used car on vet tests for nothing.
If she continues to slip into this situation I will have to weigh my options. I don't want her to take months to die. I also don't want to sign off on her death warrant if there's any chance she can live.


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## DawnH

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'd be leery about anything being found from a necropsy.
> Remember I've already spent enough money to buy a good used car on vet tests for nothing.
> If she continues to slip into this situation I will have to weigh my options. I don't want her to take months to die. I also don't want to sign off on her death warrant if there's any chance she can live.



I am so sorry. This is just heartbreaking.


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## Momof4

How is she doing today?


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## ZEROPILOT

Thanks. Nothing new. I placed different foods in front of her and she slid forward on it like a kid on a sled and sat there. She is still in the same spot. I'm going to clean her up soon.
I've been trying not to disturb her.


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## Momof4

So sorry you have to go through this and I really hope she pulls through.


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## Maggie Cummings

ZEROPILOT said:


> The old owner is someone I'm still in touch with. He fed produce being discarded by grocery stores.
> When she does eat she only eats when she's in her house and looking out and I must place the food in front of her. If she's outside she looks but then steps over it.
> Today she passed up on her rabbi, banana,cooked plantain and red pepper.
> I've got some really soft cantaloupe for tomorrow.
> I'd like to put her in with her other "sisters" but I'm still worried about them also getting sick.
> At 6.3kg her weight has not changed in ten days. However she weighed 6.9kg when I got her.
> Thanks everyone.



I realize this is different kind of, but I was given a Russian tort who was almost comatose. Vet said she carried a herpies virus, but that she had an URTI. So I started soaking her in the morning in carrots, lunch was clear water and dinner was again soaked in carrots. Strained baby food carrots. In 2 weeks the swelling in her eyes went down, but nothing else was different. I took her to the Vet for "gavage" (tube feeding using a stainless steel tube.) She uses a species specific "Critical Care" product. Again, the soakings, one night I thought for sure she was dying. She'd put her head all the way back touching her own carapace and she'd whine, just like a baby. So I started blowing in her mouth. Why? I don't have a clue, I just did. Every time she gaped I blew. Soon enough, I put a heating pad on my chest to keep her warm and took her to bed with me. After a couple of hours of me blowing in her mouth, she started putting her open mouth against my sleeping one, and wake me up so I'd blow. Impossible to believe, but I lived thru it, and so did she. She no longer gapes, or whines and she's pooped. I had her gavaged again Wednesday. My point of the story, (except the breathing part) was to show you I had a tortoise I thought for sure was going to die, So far she's still alive, she does not eat and I do give her sub q fluids, but somehow, she looks better, more alert, and if I adjust the light wrong and she gets too hot she moves. But she's so weak, she can hardly open her mouth. I think the gavage is an excellent thing. I still do my part and if my will means anything, she'll live. I never give up until the last breath...oh, before the gavage just on the carrot soaks, she'd gained 20 grams...


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## Maggie Cummings

I wish you would consider gavage. At this point what can you lose? And you'll be giving her some groceries. There's no stress with this stainless tube and it takes maybe 3 seconds. I am not talking about a clear hose that is flexible and just pokes around. I think the food and sub q fluids have made a difference in this Russian. I've had her for a month, she hasn't taken a bite, yet I see a weight gain and an improvement. I believe it's the gavage with the Critical Care...

Sorry Tom, I disagree strongly this time. The gavage and Critical Care help, maybe she's not going to die yet. Why condemn her without trying every thing you can? At least, that's my feeling. I had one sick box turtle who was going to be euthanized on Friday. Thursday I said no, I'd fix her and I fed her Critical Care with a spoon. Held her and talked to her and pestered her into living. She's alive healthy and my best box turtle about 3 years later. I'm not doing the same with this Russian, but I do hold her and all those darned soakings. I hope I have helped some...


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## leigti

I agree that some sort of artificial nutrition and hydration should be tried. It's good that she hasn't lost weight but she hasn't gained any lately either. She's not moving enough to burn many calories. I think it's only fair to give it a shot. And I think if it was my tortoise I would at least put her where she can see and smell the other tortoises. If she grew up in a large group it only makes sense that she doesn't know what to do alone. It is very difficult to know what to do. I'm just saying what I would do if it was mine.


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## ZEROPILOT

I took my refrigerated poo sample out to my vet and it seems that there are no worms. No eggs. Nothing at all that is unusual. So the mystery deepens.
She continues to decline. Now she has stopped drinking also.
This is just about over.


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## parrotlady

I am so sorry to hear this. I have been following your thread in case it could provide any insight to future problems that might occur with my tortoises.


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## mike taylor

I would force feed her .What will it hurt ?


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## tortdad

Yeah, I think it's time to syringe feed her.


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## ZEROPILOT

Would this require yet another vet visit?
It's beyond anything I've ever tried to do. I have tube fed large fish. It seems like a breeze next to doing a tortoise.


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## leigti

Yes, probably at least one visit so they can teach you how to do it. But since you have basic experience it shouldn't be too hard. I think it is worth a shot. Otherwise she's going to hit the point of no return and it will be too late to try anything


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## ZEROPILOT

leigti said:


> Yes, probably at least one visit so they can teach you how to do it. But since you have basic experience it shouldn't be too hard. I think it is worth a shot. Otherwise she's going to hit the point of no return and it will be too late to try anything


I'm relatively sure she is beyond that point myself.


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## parrotlady

When I have tube fed I use critical care for herbivores made by oxbow, I get mine from amazon as it is cheaper than a vet. Your vet I am sure can provide a syringe and feeding tube and mark it so you will know how far to insert it. Also, he can provide instructions on how to do it. If he is unable to get her mouth open he may recommend a feeding tube installed thru surgery it runs about $350. I believe Aldbraman has used one with Hopie. Good luck!


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## leigti

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'm relatively sure she is beyond that point myself.


It's amazing how quick animals can come back around when They get nutrition and hydration.


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## Maggie Cummings

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'm relatively sure she is beyond that point myself.



Meaning no disrespect, but that Russian was almost comatose. The stainless tube goes down easy, 
She is not well yet, but she sometimes moves and her eyes are now pen most of the time. And that's different. I see a difference in her. She was not drinking at all, now she's trying. I give her sub q fluids daily. I'm sorry you, too, are going thru this, I just don't give up until they do. I'm stubborn, I guess....


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## Maggie Cummings

parrotlady said:


> When I have tube fed I use critical care for herbivores made by oxbow, I get mine from amazon as it is cheaper than a vet. Your vet I am sure can provide a syringe and feeding tube and mark it so you will know how far to insert it. Also, he can provide instructions on how to do it. If he is unable to get her mouth open he may recommend a feeding tube installed thru surgery it runs about $350. I believe Aldbraman has used one with Hopie. Good luck!


Opening their mouths is the easiest part cuz they are so weak. My Vet gave me a plastic thing she uses to get the mouth open and hold it there. It's easier with 2 people.


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## stojanovski92113

Wow zero, I'm really sorry about all this...I've been reading your threads. I'm really hoping she turns around for you soon!!


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## Maggie Cummings

mike taylor said:


> I would force feed her .What will it hurt ?




Gavage Mike...force feed sounds rather violent. With that stainless tube there's no violence......It slides right down, syringe in some Critical Care, and there ya go.


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## mike taylor

That's what we called it when I breed snakes . The meanings the same . I had to give my reds meds by mouth . They gave me a syringe with a plastic hose on it . Worked fine .


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## teresaf

When you do put food in front of her I would cut it up in bite size pieces. If she does decide to eat she should be able to snatch and gobble fast not work for it...


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## Ashley & Anthony DeGilio

Any change yet? Hoping for the best for her.


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## Maggie Cummings

mike taylor said:


> That's what we called it when I breed snakes . The meanings the same . I had to give my reds meds by mouth . They gave me a syringe with a plastic hose on it . Worked fine .



I also used to use a plastic hose. But then one time I hit the lungs and didn't realize it and gave the whole syringe in the lungs. He was dead in about 3 minutes. I will not force feed anyone now. I really am scared, killing one was more than enough. So I pay the Vet $38 to do it...


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## Gillian M

Any change in your tort's health? Sincerely hope to hear it's better soon. Good luck.


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## ZEROPILOT

Everyone's help has been really appreciated. However, she is no longer moving at all. Just some reflex action from being touched. (very little)
She has had her head pulled in all weekend and hasn't moved an inch in four days.
Before, she would drag herself forward a little bit without raising up on her legs. (Last Thursday and Friday.)
As of this morning, I'm not sure if she's even still alive.
I left her inside her house so that she wont be out in the sun and I'll check on her again when I get back home.
The other three are all doing really well. Luckily none of them were ever sick.


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## Lyn W

ZEROPILOT said:


> Everyone's help has been really appreciated. However, she is no longer moving at all. Just some reflex action from being touched. (very little)
> She has had her head pulled in all weekend and hasn't moved an inch in four days.
> Before, she would drag herself forward a little bit without raising up on her legs. (Last Thursday and Friday.)
> As of this morning, I'm not sure if she's even still alive.
> I left her inside her house so that she wont be out in the sun and I'll check on her again when I get back home.
> The other three are all doing really well. Luckily none of them were ever sick.


 
I am so sorry to hear that maybe she would like to feel some sun on her back.


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## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Everyone's help has been really appreciated. However, she is no longer moving at all. Just some reflex action from being touched. (very little)
> She has had her head pulled in all weekend and hasn't moved an inch in four days.
> Before, she would drag herself forward a little bit without raising up on her legs. (Last Thursday and Friday.)
> As of this morning, I'm not sure if she's even still alive.
> I left her inside her house so that she wont be out in the sun and I'll check on her again when I get back home.
> The other three are all doing really well. Luckily none of them were ever sick.


 So sorry to have heard the above.


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## ZEROPILOT

Still living...


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## Gillian M

ZEROPILOT said:


> Still living...


 Good! Don't forget; 'hope is the last thing to die.' And good luck.


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## Jodie

So sorry for your struggles with this poor girl. It is so frustrating when you can't help them. I have lost 2 leopard hatchlings to fail syndrome. It is heartbreaking and devastating when you do everything you can, and it doesn't help. So sorry. Wish she would snap out of it for you.


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## johnsonnboswell

Keep us updated. It stinks when this happens.


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## Gillian M

Hope to hear good news soon.


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## jcaporaletti

pharyngostomy tube ASAP!!!!!


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## ZEROPILOT

I'm in contact with Broward Avian And Exotic about one last effort to save her or see if it's time to put her down.


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## Tidgy's Dad

Best of luck with that.
One last chance and really rooting for her.


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## stojanovski92113

ZEROPILOT said:


> I'm in contact with Broward Avian And Exotic about one last effort to save her or see if it's time to put her down.


Wow.....that poor tortoise  I'm sorry again that this is happening.


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## ZEROPILOT

Slowly starving to death is not what I want for her.


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## Thirstyscott

I'm so sorry to read of your terrible fight to keep alive your tortoise. I don't have the knowledge to help but I think you can see your tort community are right behind you. I really hope things take a quick change for the better. Live in hope.


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## ZEROPILOT

Update. I just dropped her off at the vet for a Esiphagostamy.
It will insert a feeding tube directly into the stomach.
This Is the last shot.


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## Tidgy's Dad

Once again, fingers crossed.


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## stojanovski92113

I'm thinking of you guys!! This is got to be tough for both of you


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## Jodie

I sure hope this works. Poor thing. Both you and the tortoise.


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## snaofreno

Any updates?


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## Tidgy's Dad

snaofreno said:


> Any updates?


Try http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/big-bertha-is-eating.120735/#post-1117269
for the latest.


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## ZEROPILOT

Yes. This thread got so large...I updated it on the new thread chronicling the latest treatment.


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