# Euthanizing a tortoise



## Shelly

OK, not a pleasant topic, but one that I feel should be discussed none the less.
What is the best way to euthanize a badly injured tortoise or turtle if a vet is not an option? Does anybody know of a humane method that does not involve violence and gore?


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## Kadaan

Freeze it? Lower the temps slowly to induce hibernation and let it die while sleeping?

Dunno, it's too sad to think about .


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## mctlong

Taking the animal to the vet is the most humane method. 

When my hatchling got sick, I discussed euthnizing with my vet. He told me about two methods: 1.) injection, 2.) freezer. 

I went with the injection because I didn't have the stomach to go with the second choice. The second method the vet discussed was reducing the animal's body temperature. He said putting the tortoise in the refrigerator slows down the tort's system until the tort cannot feel any pain. When the system is slowed down and the animal is no longer moving, then the animal can be placed in the freezer where it will die. It sounds horrible and morbid, but it could be the most humane aside from the vet injection. I've done a little research on the topic and found this site which advises against the freezer method: http://www.britishcheloniagroup.org.uk/vetscorner/euthanasia.htm

I don't mean to sound too nosey, but whats wrong with your tortoise that it needs to be euthenized?


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## Shelly

Nothing is wrong, they are fine. In the past I had 2 turtles that were victims of raccoon attacks, and had horrific injuries. I did actually freeze them, as both of you had suggested.


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## mctlong

Shelly said:


> Nothing is wrong, they are fine. In the past I had 2 turtles that were victims of raccoon attacks, and had horrific injuries. I did actually freeze them, as both of you had suggested.



I'm sorry to hear about your 2 turtles, but I'm glad that no one is sick now.


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## Meg90

Freezing is inhumane. You'd be better off drowning. I cannot imagine a reptile NOT feeling pain while being frozen, the same way any other living thing would feel if in the same situation. Would you freeze a kitten? No.

Honestly, if something has to be euthanized, bring it to the vet and have it done with CO2 That way the animal literally goes to sleep. But IMO a freezer is a terrible way to die for anything, especially something cold blooded.

The only time I have actually heard of an animal that doesn't feel a gradual temp change is in the case of a frog or toad.


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## Madkins007

The problem is that there is humane in your eyes, and humane to the animal. Rapid decapitation is one of the quickest methods, but rather nasty for the human. Freezing has some concerns, but is relatively easy for the average person. I generally vote for freezing.


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## Shelly

Meg90 said:


> bring it to the vet and have it done with CO2 That way the animal literally goes to sleep.



I worked for a vet for 5 years, and never heard of that method. How do you euthanize something with CO2?


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## Meg90

Its pure carbon dioxide, so basically air without Oxygen. That's what most highschools use on lab frogs before dissections. Layman's term is "gassing" an animal. Its a common practice for smaller animals that cannot have a mask put on them. They are put in a container without ventilation and CO2 is pumped in.


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## Shelly

Meg90 said:


> Its pure carbon dioxide, so basically air without Oxygen. That's what most highschools use on lab frogs before dissections. Layman's term is "gassing" an animal. Its a common practice for smaller animals that cannot have a mask put on them. They are put in a container without ventilation and CO2 is pumped in.



That is asphyxiation, and is horribly cruel! I can't imagine how that can be considered humane!


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## Meg90

How is freezing considered humane? How long does it take to suffocate? Max 2 minutes maybe? How long is a tortoise in the freezer for? Several hours?


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## Shelly

Meg90 said:


> How is freezing considered humane? How long does it take to suffocate? Max 2 minutes maybe? How long is a tortoise in the freezer for? Several hours?



If that is your idea, then why bother going to a vet? Why not just drown it in a bucket of water? Pretty much the EXACT same thing!


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## KQ6AR

You could have the co2 & freezing at the same time by, Putting the tort in a rubbermade with a piece of dry ice. The dry ice off gasses co2/


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## Meg90

You have yet to verify why freezing would be considered at all humane.

I think you have a problem with DEATH. Not euthanasia.


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## Kadaan

Freezing a reptile is quite a bit different from freezing a mammal. You wouldn't hibernate a kitten or a human, yet it's natural for most tortoises. Freezing a hibernating turtle to euthanize it is like gassing a sleeping person. They don't feel pain, they just don't wake up.

After reading that link, it sounds like they advise against freezing because of the possibility of survival even after being frozen (they cite one case of a tortoise surviving for 27 hours in a 100% nitrogen environment.)


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## dmmj

I personally think freezing is inhumane, but not being a medical person I can't say for sure, TBH I have never hard of a vet recommending freezing, when I put my cat down about 7 years ago the vet gave her a shot. She basically just shut down one night and that was it either let her last a few days or a week tops or put her out of her misery I chose to end her suffering, and to be honest if the vet had suggested freezing I prob would have attacked him. In all honesty I can not see how freezing even for a tortoise is humane, if I mysel had to do it I would prob choose decap myself it seems the quickest way but prob very very messy. If you really were forced to choose I would prob choose gassing I know it sounds mean and nasty but it is IMHO the quickest and easiest way for a non vet person to do it, you could prob use your car's exhaust pipe and a large bag, but prepare for some strange looks fromt he neighbors. while the animal does suffocate by the time it happens they are usually knocked out from oxygen depravation. so they don't really feel it. just my 2 cents.


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## Meg90

Freezing is like hibernation? Hibernation doesn't kill. And I have seen documentaries of little painted turtle hatchlings that hatch too late, and freeze solid before they can get back in the ground. In the spring, they thawed like nothing was ever wrong. I watched it with my own eyes on time lapse.

I can't imagine putting any animal in the freezer to kill it. And I don't think its at all humane. The body systems don't "slow" done, they SHUT down. Over several hours. 

How can that not be painful?


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## mctlong

The way my vet explained it was to place the tort in the fridge first so that the animal goes into a hibernation before placing it in the freezer. The theory being that the tort will not feel the pain if its asleep in a hibernation state. That begs the question, does a tort feel pain when its in a hibernation state?

I know it sounds horrible. Any talk of killing an animal, no matter how humane, sounds horrible. This is not a pleasant topic. 

The heated debate on this thread is a clear indication of how much everyone on this thread loves their torts and want to prevent suffering.


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## Kadaan

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding hibernation. I was under the impression that when a tortoise hibernates it slows it's body down to a near-death state where it's in a deep sleep. I assumed if the temperature keeps dropping slowly it will continue to slow down until it ultimately stops. I didn't think they were awake during hibernation.


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## Candy

I'm reading this post in amazement of how anyone would know whether or not a tortoise feels pain or not and when they do. I find both ways unexceptable. I actually think what Madkins said first about the decapitation would be preferable over both of these methods. I'm hoping that Danny or some of the others like perhaps Carl will come in with their insights. I would be very interested to hear what they have to say. Meg that's the exact reason that I would not dissect anything in Science class. I always knew that that wasn't for me.


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## Meg90

What about species that never hibernate? Sulcata, most Greeks? Iguanas? Leopard geckos? A lot of reptile species NEVER hibernate, or encounter cold of any type.

I think your vet was ill informed when it came to reptiles. To die by freezing to death is not painless.


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## galvinkaos

Meg90 said:


> Freezing is inhumane. You'd be better off drowning. I cannot imagine a reptile NOT feeling pain while being frozen, the same way any other living thing would feel if in the same situation. Would you freeze a kitten? No.
> 
> Honestly, if something has to be euthanized, bring it to the vet and have it done with CO2 That way the animal literally goes to sleep. But IMO a freezer is a terrible way to die for anything, especially something cold blooded.



 Not that I want to be ever taken up on it, but I have access to a euthanizing chamber (C02) at work and can use it if needed. If the horrible need comes up, PM or email me. I am in the San Gabriel Valley in CA, USA. I cannot imagine freezing any animal to death as much as I hate cold.

The state of CA requires C02 euthanization for any trapped wild animal (skunks, raccoons, opossums, etc) that is trapped due to being a nuisance - in or under someone's house, etc. It is illegal to relocate them. We have to use live animal traps with food and water , so they don't suffer but then we have to kill them. Weird laws, huh?

Dawna


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## reptylefreek

I'm for freezing if you cant get to a vet in time. If they are on the brink of dying and are most likely feeling pain anyway whats the difference. I also agree with Madkins, if the animal is large enough I would say decapitate. Sounds really gross but what ever puts them outa there misery faster. Just think when some torts die in the wild, they die a slow dehydrated death. Almost anything we do (freezer, Co2, shot) is better then that.


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## Maggie Cummings

It used to be common practice to put a sick or dying turtle in the freezer. The theory being that their system slows down to a state of hibernation then they freeze without realizing they are freezing. Sounds harsh but I know a buncha people who have done it...


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## Sudhira

If something is in extremis, I would want to dispatch them quickly.


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## mctlong

I still think that, if the option is available, taking a tort to a vet and having it euthanized via injection is preferable to all the methods discussed above (both for the tort and the owner). Injection strikes me as the most humane, but I still wonder of the injection causes pain? Can we ever know for sure?


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## moonraser

DE...DE...D.E.C.A.P.I.T.A.T.E !?!?!?! That is scarymake me think of chainsaw massacre 100 time no for me.


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## Madortoise

Very interesting thread...not a pleasant one at all but it makes me think...it is evident from diversity in our responses that we all perceive death and suffering differently for our reptile friends/families. 
I once had a biology major friend from CalTech who said that she only eats clams but not other seafood because mollusks have less developed nervous system and did not suffer from the pain when they were killed. I also had a friend who had to euthanize her cat upon recommendation of her vet and witnessed her cat being terrified at her very last moment from being forcefully being subjected to an injection. She was going to sue the vet afterwards and went through a period of depression/psychotherapy. Some of these answers reflect what people think is just for your little friends. We all have to do what we believe is best for our tort/turtle. 
If I ever have to, with dark and sunken heart, I might choose freezing b/c desert tortoises do hibernate and if one was badly injured, it'll likely not to survive the long hibernation plus I find comfort in thinking that I am allowing mine to sleep (though it may be induced) rather than to inject w/chemicals or suffocate....but that's just me with my value system speaking. What's right and just for one person may not apply to others.


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## Isa

I have to say that I am against decapitation ( a big nono) and I am against the freezing thing! I could never put a live animal or reptile in the freezer. I would hate it if I would be suffering and someone would put me in the freezer, so it is the same thing! IMO Bring the tortoise or turtle to the vet ( euthanasia) is the smarter and the humane thing to do.


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## bettinge

There is still debate as to whether injection is a humane way to kill prisoners on death row! If the debate exists there, then I do not think we can assume its pain free for animals. A fast death seems best! Decapitation does sound fastest, but horible for the owner! I do think I would, now that I know about it, choose the refrigerator/freezer method.

I do agree with the vet seeing the tort first since it seems tortoises can recover from some pretty horible circumstances.

I recently had a chameleon die a slow and natural death, and vowed to never do that again!


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## Shelly

Isa said:


> I have to say that I am against decapitation ( a big nono) and I am against the freezing thing! I could never put a live animal or reptile in the freezer. I would hate it if I would be suffering and someone would put me in the freezer, so it is the same thing! IMO Bring the tortoise or turtle to the vet ( euthanasia) is the smarter and the humane thing to do.



If you found a tort horribly injured from an animal attack or after being run over by a car, waiting several hours for a vet appointment is not a good option.
I once had to decapitate a chicken. It wasn't fun, but I do think that is probably the best way if it needs to be done NOW.


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## Crazy1

Well this topic got me to thinking early this morning. Darn you for making me think so early.

I too find it interesting the views of each of the members who answered and know that each of us care dearly for are animals, regardless of what they are.

First Hibernation:
Torts are not near death during hibernation. Well not my two anyway. They will hiss, or retract a leg if I touch them, they will turn in their burrows and containers. Though I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t think they are totally awake, they are not so deep in sleep that they feel nothing. Their bodies do slow during hibernation, as evidenced by not eating, drinking or defecating. But they donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t totally turn off during hibernation. 
Perhaps if their body temps dropped low enough they would go deeper into a slumber. However I know if a tort is not protected from freezing temperatures the first thing to freeze is his eyes, which would/and do cause blindness if the tort does survive the freeze. 
Though I am not sure about how pain registers in a tort as compared to a human (we often put human feelings on things so we can associate with them easier) . A Dog or cat seems to recover from a horrific injury or surgery much faster than a human. It seems that they donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t feel the pain as long or as extreme as we do (again putting human feelings and time frames on animals). So perhaps putting the same pain meter on them as a human is just not the same. 

Animals no matter what kind respond to threats in many complex ways some will fight when cornered, others stand perfectly still so predators will not see them, many freeze or play dead in hopes that the predator will lose interest. Some can even change color swiftly to camouflage themselves. These responses are triggered by the sympathetic nervous system, but in order to fit the model of fight or flight, the idea of flight must be broadened to include escaping capture in either a physical way or in a sensory way. Thus, flight can be disappearing to another location or just disappearing in place. And often both fight and flight are combined in a given situation.
This response was later recognized as the first stage of a general adaptation syndrome that regulates stress responses among vertebrates and other organisms. So if an animal perceives enough stress they either run away, fight or freeze. Our torts Freeze, like opossums they play dead. Hoping the threat (stressor) leaves it alone and goes away or hurts it less because it thinks its dead. 

Why say all this you ask? Well this is the process I go through when faced with a question like this. Is this a living thinking animal? Does it perceive threats, stress, pain? Perhaps not in the same way as I but none the less I think they do.


So I think what it boils down to the way we view what is humane. To that each one of us will have a slightly different view and feelings. So my first question would be how do you define humane?
Is it caring, kind, gentle, compassionate, benevolent, civilized, charitable, marked by compassion, sympathy, or consideration for humans or animals? these are just some of the dictionary definitions of humane. Think about what you perceive as humane.

Humans in the past have tried what they deemed Ã¢â‚¬Å“humaneÃ¢â‚¬Â ways of killing 
for decades upon decades and have still not come up with a Ã¢â‚¬Å“humaneÃ¢â‚¬Â way, in my opinion. Hanging, decapitation, gassing, electrocution, lethal injections were all considered humane ways to put a person to death at one time or another. Only to be determined at a later time that they all had their faults and perhaps were not so humane.

Again I myself place human feelings in this mix. If I were a tort that was horribly hurt or injured would I want to be put down? And if I do, how would I want to go? The last one is easy, without additional pain or stress of course. Now is there such a thing? I believe the way my vet does it is best. They give a shot that actually puts the animal into a deep sleep, as if they are going to have surgery, before administering it the injection that simply stops its heart. Yep that would be my vote.


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## Isa

Shelly said:


> Isa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have to say that I am against decapitation ( a big nono) and I am against the freezing thing! I could never put a live animal or reptile in the freezer. I would hate it if I would be suffering and someone would put me in the freezer, so it is the same thing! IMO Bring the tortoise or turtle to the vet ( euthanasia) is the smarter and the humane thing to do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you found a tort horribly injured from an animal attack or after being run over by a car, waiting several hours for a vet appointment is not a good option.
> I once had to decapitate a chicken. It wasn't fun, but I do think that is probably the best way if it needs to be done NOW.
Click to expand...


I could never decapitate an animal or reptile, but that is me. I do not think a vet would make me wait if I called and explained them the situation. I am sure mine would not wait to put the tortoise to sleep and I am sure he would make me come to the office right away.
I take my example again, If I would be suffering like crazy, I would not want someone to decapitate me.

Very great post Robyn!
You have added very interesting points


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## Madkins007

Remember that the OP included the line "and the vet is not an option". That rather limits our choices.

Dr. Mader "Reptile Medicine and Surgery" dedicates all of Chapter 33 to this issue, and discusses loss and grief in an earlier chapter. This is a big issue for vets.

His thoughts on the various methods for turtles and tortoises, summarized, are:
- 'Yes' on 'Deep freezing' for smaller reptiles (under 40g), ie. using liquid nitrogen. He mentions that many disagree with 'regular freezing' but that it is widely practiced. 
- 'No' to inhalants. He points out that turtles and crocs can live in a pure CO2 environment for up to 27 hours, so this is not a humane method. (Sorry Meg- his comments, not mine.)
- 'No' to externally administered agents.
- 'Yes' to many chemical methods, like overdose of barbiturates. He points out pros and cons to several meds and methods of injection. he also points out that turtles and tortoises are resistant to many poisons, common drugs, etc. Sadly, this is not an option to most of us away from a vet.
- 'Yes' to 'physical methods', by which he means some combination of 'pithing' or mechanical damage to the brain, and decapitation.

In my post I was not trying to tell people what to do, just pointing out the two main options away from a vet. If you cannot use a vet, decaptitation, especially if you pith the animal as well, is gruesome but is the quickest and surest. But it is emotionally hard on the people involved. 

Freezing has a lot of problems, but it is better than some other options. There may be pain (it is hotly debated in some circles- many feel that the chilling numbs the animal adequately). This is not an option you would use on mammals since their metabolisms will fight the process and cause more suffering. 

I've had to put down a few animals in my life. I have used the vet or animal welfare for several of them, but have also used freezing on a badly injured Russian and a few other small reptiles. It would not be my first choice, but it is often an expedient choice, especially if time (and I hate to say it, but cost as well) is an issue.


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## Yvonne G

Also, as to an inhaled toxin: Tortoises can hold their breath for a very long time. One of my desert tortoises could not be operated on because she would not breathe when they put the mask over her face.


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## Shelly

Madkins007 said:


> Remember that the OP included the line "and the vet is not an option". That rather limits our choices.
> 
> Dr. Mader "Reptile Medicine and Surgery" dedicates all of Chapter 33 to this issue, and discusses loss and grief in an earlier chapter. This is a big issue for vets.
> 
> His thoughts on the various methods for turtles and tortoises, summarized, are:
> - 'Yes' on 'Deep freezing' for smaller reptiles (under 40g), ie. using liquid nitrogen. He mentions that many disagree with 'regular freezing' but that it is widely practiced.
> - 'No' to inhalants. He points out that turtles and crocs can live in a pure CO2 environment for up to 27 hours, so this is not a humane method. (Sorry Meg- his comments, not mine.)
> - 'No' to externally administered agents.
> - 'Yes' to many chemical methods, like overdose of barbiturates. He points out pros and cons to several meds and methods of injection. he also points out that turtles and tortoises are resistant to many poisons, common drugs, etc. Sadly, this is not an option to most of us away from a vet.
> - 'Yes' to 'physical methods', by which he means some combination of 'pithing' or mechanical damage to the brain, and decapitation.
> 
> In my post I was not trying to tell people what to do, just pointing out the two main options away from a vet. If you cannot use a vet, decaptitation, especially if you pith the animal as well, is gruesome but is the quickest and surest. But it is emotionally hard on the people involved.
> 
> Freezing has a lot of problems, but it is better than some other options. There may be pain (it is hotly debated in some circles- many feel that the chilling numbs the animal adequately). This is not an option you would use on mammals since their metabolisms will fight the process and cause more suffering.
> 
> I've had to put down a few animals in my life. I have used the vet or animal welfare for several of them, but have also used freezing on a badly injured Russian and a few other small reptiles. It would not be my first choice, but it is often an expedient choice, especially if time (and I hate to say it, but cost as well) is an issue.



Excellent post.


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## -EJ

This is a cool thread. 

Anyone who has a large collection runs into this relatively frequently.

Many of the 'new' vets believe that freezing is cruel... I don't agree.

Reptiles are poikilotherms. Their metabolism is based on temperature. If you drop the temperature... metabolic functions also drop. This is what causes 'hibernation'. If you take it a step further... they die.

I do need to say that many well respected herp vets think this is wrong and that the herps feel pain. Is this a matter of learning on the vets part or having a feeling for the topic.

I believe that freezing is an option for euthanizing a reptile.


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## Meg90

-EJ said:


> Many of the 'new' vets believe that freezing is cruel... I don't agree.
> 
> I do need to say that many well respected herp vets think this is wrong and that the herps feel pain. Is this a matter of learning on the vets part or having a feeling for the topic.




You said "vets" believe that reptiles feel pain...you don't?


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## -EJ

No... all living critters feel pain... no argument there.

In the case of freezing reptiles... that's open to discussion.



Meg90 said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many of the 'new' vets believe that freezing is cruel... I don't agree.
> 
> I do need to say that many well respected herp vets think this is wrong and that the herps feel pain. Is this a matter of learning on the vets part or having a feeling for the topic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You said "vets" believe that reptiles feel pain...you don't?
Click to expand...


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## dmmj

Immersion in liquid nitrogen is a lot different than just putting a tort in a freezer. LN is about as quick and painless as death can get but most of us do not have ready access to this product,


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## Isa

My question to everyone who is for freezing a tortoise, Why not going to the vet for euthanasia? The tortoise is already in pain, so why freeze it, it must be soooo painful .


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## Shelly

Isa said:


> My question to everyone who is for freezing a tortoise, Why not going to the vet for euthanasia? The tortoise is already in pain, so why freeze it, it must be soooo painful .



Because a vet is not always available.... say like on a country road at 2 AM


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## Isa

I am really lucky here, because there is an emergency vet available 24/7 but it is true that it is not everywhere that a vet is available 24/7.


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## Sudhira

Freezing might be "humane" but how long would it take for the animal's pain to be alleviated by freezing? Seems as though it would take a while?


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## Kymiie

This is the first time I have come across this thread, and gosh was i suprised!Who in the right mind would freeze a tortoise to death? As meg90 said you wouldnt do it to your dog!
I personally dont believe in the injecction but its something that has to be dont.. You dont want to see a loved one in pain do you?
My vet is around 24/7 too!
xx


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## Shelly

Kymiie said:


> My vet is around 24/7 too!



How much would your vet charge you to euthanize an animal at 2 am?


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## Kymiie

and decapping the animal is even worst! Im sorry but how can anybody think of this? Thats worst than freezing!
IMVHO If you dont have a vet around 24/7 well to be honest i dont know what to think. To someone else crush is a tortoise to me he is my human baby.. and I think I could never do this to any1/thing! 
xx



How much would your vet charge you to euthanize an animal at 2 am?
[/quote said:


> My vet yes would probly be alot but a pet is for life which is why I save money for anything like that!
> MY 2 cats and 1 dog are on insurance!
> Crush has a savings bank account by me and i put him 50% of my wages in there a month and the odd bits
> EG i get Ã‚Â£208.25 a month
> Crush gets 50% Ã‚Â£104 + the extra Ã‚Â£4.25
> 
> But thats me .. I know some poeple may not be able to afford it!
> xx


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## Shelly

My vet yes would probly be alot but a pet is for life which 
[/quote]

Where does my original post mention "pet"?
There are numerous instances where a situation might occur where a seriously, badly maimed tortoise might be encountered (note the lack of the word "pet"). On the road, in the wild, etc etc. Many people might have a tortoise or turtle, but might not have an emotional attachment like you do. Or possibly a breeder, etc.
The purpose of this thread was to obtain some real, practical advice for situations when A VET IS NOT AN OPTION, for whatever reason, not to argue about who loves their pet more.


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## Kymiie

Im not trying to argue anything  sorry you think that way it was just my opinion!
Fair enough.. not a pet!
But I still couldnt do it!
Not my thing!
xx


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## Laura

Ive seen many peacfull euth by injection.. and Ive seen animals poked and poked and stressed and scared before the end comes.. Injection isnt always great either.. if they fight it , they struggle and panick and cant breath as they shut down.. it isnt always pretty.. Sedating first is best.. 
I know people who rehab wildlife and to euth a bird, they use Brake Fluid. They put the bird in a small plasitc box and soak a rag with the fluid. they die from lack of good oxygen.. Im sure its not always good either.. 
If the animal is so sick or injured and dying.. and to the point of being almsot comatose.. I would think the freezer would be a good option. People who have died in the snow,, just appear to go to sleep and not wake up..


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## DoctorCosmonaut

Maybe you could find a neighbor who could do the gruesome for you  ... Someone who isn't squirmish or attached... send them away to the guillotine... Hate even thinking about this. My girls are way too young... I hope we can all die together in our sleep when I'm old


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## terryo

Having to put down an animal of any kind...be it a pet, or something found on the road.....is usually hard for anyone. I would keep it warm, and get to a vet. Most will take in emergencies. I know people who feed live pinkies to their torts....they are not my "pets", but I could never do that either.


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## chadk

Those in the snake keeping business have all kinds of ways to put down the live rats before they feed them to their snakes. Live rats could injur the snake, so pre-killed and frozen\thawed rats are usually preferred (and more convienient if you are not set up to keep live rats).

One way is to use plastic bins or coolers and add a chunck of dry ice. The animal falls asleep and then dies. I could look up a detailed post on how they do it if anyone is interested.

I was raised on and around farms. Hunting and fishing are also part of my life. More on the fishing side, less hunting - but mainly just because I don't have time. When it comes to putting down an animal that needs it, I have no issues with doing myself as quickly and humanely as possible. Life and death are just realities we need to learn to face.

And when it comes to pets vs human child... well, until you have your own child, you will never be able to compare. And for me, there really is no comparison. I've known so many people who's dogs or cats have been their 'children', but then when they have their own real child, their perspective drastically changes. Maybe this is not true for everyone, but certainly for everyone I personally know. Then, once they get older and the kids are grown, they get deeply attached to their animals again.


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## dmmj

I am always amused at the variety of different thoughts on this forum. And of course none of them are right or wrong just different opinons. I don't really think most of us could crush our pets heads in, even though I think decap. is the quickest way to end suffering. I mean the gulliotine was invented by a french doctor because he thought it ws the most humane way to kill a person. Now of course if my pet was in pain and suffering I would want to take it to a vet, but my local vet is not 24/7 even though I live in CA there are not a lot of 24 hour vets.


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## Kymiie

Im only 17 so crush is my baby! But i do also understand what you are saying kind of.. but i have a decade maybe more befor i have my own children XD
xx


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## Kadaan

1. Nobody WANTS to euthanize their pet, that's not what this thread is about.
2. I think *everyone* would rather take the tort to a vet to be put to sleep, but again, the OP said "*if a vet is not an option*".
3. Mammals and Reptiles are not the same. Nobody would think of freezing a mammal because mammals don't react to cold the same way reptiles do.
4. It's a rather gruesome thing to do, but decapitation/pithing is the quickest and most painless way without a vet (and even then, some of the articles I read said they inject the tort with something to make it fall asleep then pith it.) The OP's "*that does not involve violence and gore*" rules that out though.


----------



## DoctorCosmonaut

... What is "pithing?" :S


----------



## Kadaan

DoctorCosmonaut said:


> ... What is "pithing?" :S



It's basically inserting something sharp directly into the brain either from the back of the head or roof of the mouth directly into the brain to kill instantly.


From wikipedia:


> Pithing is a slaughtering technique in which the brain of the animal is scrambled with a tool inserted through the hole in the skull created by captive bolt stunning. Pithing further immobilizes the animal after stunning and before exsanguination.
> 
> This method also refers to a procedure used in biology classes to immobilize a specimen, by inserting a needle up through the base of the skull (from the back) and then wiggling the needle around, scrambling the brain. It allows for dissecting the frog, as well as observing its living physiology, such as the beating heart and expansion and contraction of the lungs, without causing unnecessary pain to the animal. The specimen remains living because respiration continues through the skin without cerebral control, but it feels no pain once the spine is initially severed.



Not pretty, but it's very quick for the animal.


----------



## Madkins007

A note on freezing in a regular home freezer: When I have done it, I saw no signs that made me think the animal suffered. I know this is not proof of anything, but it does help me believe that I effectively helped deal with the suffering it was going through earlier.

A note on decapitation- SQUICK AND GORE WARNING!!!!!



Seriously- you may not want to read this if the decapitation thing has you squeamish.


Keep scrolling ONLY if you are interested.






Just FYI, the easiest way to decapitate something like a chelonian is usually with poultry shears. It is actually relatively quick, easy and comparatively goreless (as soon as the heart stops, it stops actively bleeding.) Most authorities would suggest then sticking a needle or probe into the brain to ensure that all brain activity has stopped, but that is not proven to make a difference.



chadk said:


> One way is to use plastic bins or coolers and add a chunck of dry ice. The animal falls asleep and then dies. I could look up a detailed post on how they do it if anyone is interested.



Unfortunately, that is mostly the 'inhaled method' that is not as effective on turtles and tortoises. The dry ice sublimates to CO2 gas and drives out the oxygen. There is some chilling/numbing going on as well, but unless you actually freeze the tortoise, it is not going to do the job by itself safely.

The thing about chelonians is that they are so resistant to so many drugs, toxins and such. A lot of things that will kill a snake or mammal are shrugged off by tortoises and turtles.


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## galvinkaos

I once had a cat that a psycho neighbor fed antifreeze. Unfortunaltely I did not know the symptoms and neither did the emergency vet I went to. The next day my regular vet knew immediately what had happened. She confirmed how far gone he was - organ failure- with a blood test. It was very obvious that george was in extreme pain and distress. The vet gave him an injection and he stopped twitching and seemed to be very peaceful as his eyes closed and he went to sleep. I completely felt it was in his best interest to euthanize him quickly, my (and a vets) ignorance cause him an extra 24 hours of severe neurological issues and pain. I will always put 110% into trying to "fix" them but I also know when I have to recognize the inevitable. I do not have experience with reptiles or tort euthanasia, but I do know that the least amount of pain and suffering for the animal, even when horrible for the human, actually is better in the long run for the human and the animal. You did the best for the animal and although you might feel horrible in the moment, You did what you felt was in the best interest of the animal.

Dawna


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## -EJ

Reptiles are poikilotherms. Their metabolism is based on temperature... you don't just put them in the freezer. You place them in the fridge for a few days... then in the freezer. Dropping the temperature drops the overall body response. It's at this point that they don't actually feel anything. The freezing is the final point. That's how I see it.

As a pet owner with one or two animals... I can see this being an odd conversation.

When you deal in hundreds of reptiles... it's a different story.

I once tried to break a snakes neck... to 'put it out'. That memory will stay with me forever. It didn't work. I was working for a wholesaler at the time.

Freezing is the way to go if you don't have the finances to pay for the drugs.




Kymiie said:


> Im only 17 so crush is my baby! But i do also understand what you are saying kind of.. but i have a decade maybe more befor i have my own children XD
> xx


----------



## Meg90

Why would you take several DAYS to kill an animal?

That is beyond cruel. If it takes DAYS suffocating would be more humane...drowning. That kind of misery is terrible. How can people think that they don't feel pain? They just can't REACT to it. Their body temperature has no effect to how much they feel.


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## -EJ

Do you have a clue as to the physiology of a reptile.

Ok... Ok... hibernation. What do you do? You drop the temperature. Does the tortoise actually hibernate... NOOOOOOO. The temperature is dropped to the point where the metabolism slows down. Metabolic functions are reduced to a minamal level.

Ok... to your post. They are not suffocating. Plenty of air is available... metabolic processes slow down due to the cooler temperatures.

This conversation made me think that not all understand what an amphibian/reptile is. 



Meg90 said:


> Why would you take several DAYS to kill an animal?
> 
> That is beyond cruel. If it takes DAYS suffocating would be more humane...drowning. That kind of misery is terrible. How can people think that they don't feel pain? They just can't REACT to it. Their body temperature has no effect to how much they feel.


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## chadk

Drowning? Have you ever almost drowned? Have you ever watched an animal drown? Not exactly quick and painless. It is very tramatic on both the one drowning and the one watching or doing the drowning to the other.

Not sure how decapitation would work for a turtle or tort as well. It can be hard enough to do something that is supposed to be easy, like killing a chicken, but it can go wrong so fast. If it was a tort, I'd be tempted to use a .22 to the back of the skull. But that is on the violoent side for some. But instant for the critter. 

And not to get even more morbid, but if you head down a path like this (head removal, bullet, neck breaking, etc), be prepared for the spazms or nerves that can seemingly last forever sometimes. If you are not expecting it, and just thinking it will die and then be perfectly still, well, I warned you....

EJ, I think the concern with time is possibly in the scenario that the animal has been severely injured by a dog or something and needs to be put down ASAP. Nobody wants a suffering, bleeding animal to die a slow death in the fridge \ freezer.


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## Meg90

So putting an animal that would NEVER encounter cold into a refrigerator for days and THEN into a freezer is more humane than drowning?

How many species of tortoise actually HIBERNATE?

And Ed, I want you to explain to me how lowering body temperatures effects the way reptiles FEEL pain. Lowering the body temp does not reduce the amount of nerves in the body. And as it has already been stated, reptiles are NOT half way to dead when they are hibernating. Their body functions are slowed, but how does that mean that they don't feel pain??

So I should throw a Greek tort that would never hib in the fridge for a few days to half kill him, and then toss him in the freezer for another 12 hours or so to finish him off? How is that considered more humane than decapitation even?

And to argue that its "traumatic" for the animal to be drowned is ridiculous. How does the animal feel trapped and helpless with no way to escape the cold?

Since people want to start throwing around how "uneducated" others are, I just have to say it. 

Some of this posts make me sick. A good portion of these responses are no less than ridiculous.


----------



## -EJ

As a reptile... not me personally... but if you drop the temperature...the senses are dulled to an extreme.



chadk said:


> EJ, I think the concern with time is possibly in the scenario that the animal has been severely injured by a dog or something and needs to be put down ASAP. Nobody wants a suffering, bleeding animal to die a slow death in the fridge \ freezer.


----------



## Meg90

EJ How is that? I want to know why you think they cannot feel pain. I think what you have been arguing is that their responses are so slowed, they just do not react to it. There has not been two words of explanation as to how you think this phenom occurs.


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## Yvonne G

I don't know from first hand experience, but I've seen a lot of movies where the person is lost in the snow and just wants to go to sleep, then dies. I would imagine it might be the same thing for a turtle or tortoise...they get too cold and just want to go to sleep, lose consciousness, then die. ??



Meg90 said:


> EJ How is that? I want to know why you think they cannot feel pain. I think what you have been arguing is that their responses are so slowed, they just do not react to it. There has not been two words of explanation as to how you think this phenom occurs.



Stay calm, Meg. This is a very educational thread and since none of us is a tortoise, none of us can actually KNOW what the tortoise feels. We all have an opinion, and we're not trying to change anyone's mind or way of thinking. Just expressing our opinions and thoughts. Ed's not trying to change your mind, he's just saying what he thinks.


----------



## dmmj

All I know is when my DT hibernates and I touch his leg once or twice a month to see if he is ok, he hisses and withdraws his leg instantly, it does not seem to me that his senses are dulled.


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## chadk

"And to argue that its "traumatic" for the animal to be drowned is ridiculous."

Meg, have you ever tried to drown an animal? Have you ever almost drowned? It is terrifying.


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## DoctorCosmonaut

I don't think Meg talked about drowining... but I may be wrong. I think she just referred to gassing with CO2... Not that I am advocating either... Nor freezing... Think my TROPICAL tort would not enjoy that... I don't know what I like! Well I don't like any of it... I mean what I think is best...

P.S. Shouldn't this thread be in debatable topics?


----------



## bettinge

While its debatable which method is best, I think they are all better than the death that many wild tortoises suffer! Being a chew toy for minutes or hours is far from stress free or painless.


----------



## Kadaan

DoctorCosmonaut said:


> P.S. Shouldn't this thread be in debatable topics?



The original post was asking a question, but people seem to be disregarding the question and debating everything about it.


Meg, if you were days from the nearest vet and couldn't deal with violence/gore, how would you euthanize a tortoise in severe pain and beyond recovery?


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## Meg90

I would use CO2, and if I couldn't get that, I would drown it in warm water.

People keep saying "OHMYGOD" when you say drown, like I think its a pleasant thing to do. I do not think it would be pleasant. I think it would be horrifying. But it is quick. Tortoises do not swim (well, the majority of species don't) which means that without the knowledge and skill to hold their breath, it would be over quickly. In the case of species that do swim, like RF YF, I would pick CO2 as my first choice.

I cannot understand how anyone could put an animal in the refrigerator and leave them to die a slow, and painful death that would span days before they entered the freezer. How could you stand to listen to them, moving slower and slower scratching at the container trying to get out? For a species that doesn't hibernate, its no less than torturous. 

I would rather live with the trauma of drowning a live animal than live with seeing their body slowly go lifeless as I'm getting milk for my cereal.

IMO the fridge/freezer method is the most inhumane death suggested in these last five pages.


----------



## bettinge

In Vetter's book on Hermanns, page 129, he describes two different situations where a Hermanns tortoise was in or under water for an extended period. The first was a two month old juvenile that was accidentally dropped into a pond. That tortoise was found lifeless floating two weeks later. After that tort warmed up it was walking and eating the next day! 

The second was an adult female that remained at the bottom of a pond at 40 degrees, 30 inches deep. That tort was there for days. For a short while it had mirky eyes and could not see, but weeks later was fine! 

There are thoughts that "the respiratory tract of tortoises might close off completely in an accident of this type, enabling them to survive these long periods without a supply of oxygen!"

Given these documented cases, it may very well be that drowning is indeed the most stressfull and drawn out death imaginable! Based on these facts, I could never do this to my tortoises!


----------



## -EJ

Common sense. Think about it. Cold blooded animals are driven by temperature.

We are not talking mammals.

Ok... reptiles do feel pain... no doubt. That's not what we are talking here.

Another... ok... the drugs slow the synaptic responsis... same thing.

I have explained my point. I'll do it again. Reptiles metabolism is based on temperature. You slow the metabolism... neurosystem included...aka pain path... less pain. If ou freeze them streight forward... painful. Slow the metabolism before freezing... 



emysemys said:


> I don't know from first hand experience, but I've seen a lot of movies where the person is lost in the snow and just wants to go to sleep, then dies. I would imagine it might be the same thing for a turtle or tortoise...they get too cold and just want to go to sleep, lose consciousness, then die. ??
> 
> 
> 
> Meg90 said:
> 
> 
> 
> EJ How is that? I want to know why you think they cannot feel pain. I think what you have been arguing is that their responses are so slowed, they just do not react to it. There has not been two words of explanation as to how you think this phenom occurs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stay calm, Meg. This is a very educational thread and since none of us is a tortoise, none of us can actually KNOW what the tortoise feels. We all have an opinion, and we're not trying to change anyone's mind or way of thinking. Just expressing our opinions and thoughts. Ed's not trying to change your mind, he's just saying what he thinks.
Click to expand...


----------



## Meg90

Metabolism and nervous system are not even remotely connected.


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## Kayti

I am having a hard time understanding why this is even a topic of conversation. When would a vet not be an option? 

Seeing as we could never be 100% certain that any method other than extensively researched and medically approved methods of killing an animal are humane, why would you ever risk it? Especially something as logically flawed as freezing. 

Would you try to euthanize a dog by yourself? How about a human? Hopefully not.

It's a lot more complicated than supposed "common sense" and just assuming a cold blooded animal will react to cold temperatures in a certain way. That's why vets go to school for 8+ years. (And even then some of them seem willing to risk an ill-informed decision, at least when it come to reptiles, I've found.) 

Even if I thought my tortoise was in pain and dying, I would still take them to a vet. That way they would at least have a chance, and if not, access to a painless death. 
Vets aren't that expensive. I doubt euthanizing a tortoise would cost more that $100 at most. 
I think having a bit of savings you are willing to spend on vet bills in case of an emergency qualifies as basic care for any pet.


----------



## Shelly

Kayti said:


> When would a vet not be an option?



Are you serious?


----------



## dmmj

I have to disagre with meg IMHO drowning is horrible, I honestly could not think of a worse way to go myself. Drowning takes at least 6 mins if not longer depending on the temp (I know you said warm water) I like meg but in this instance i have to disagree, decap while grisly is still my prefered method, if no vet was avaiable. Of course I would take mine to a vet but I can imagine cases where a vet was not avaiable.


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## reptylefreek

Not everyone lives in the city and has a vet living practically next door. Not only that but I have family that lives on an island that doesn't even have a gas station on it... vet not an option for them at 2 in the morning. On top of that people need to stop thinking in terms of pet. When you run a business with hundreds of animals around you, you do not get attatched there for its easier to make a quick decision to put the animal out of its misery when you know its too late for them to survive. I thinks it's nieve to think a vet is your only option. If it's your beloved pet and you would spend a years salary to make it better thats your perogative. People on farms make these decisions all day, an animal is sick and would cost you more then its worth to save you put it outa its misery. What if you bred a clutch of torts and half the babies hatched undeveloped and clearly were not gonna make it. Is a vet in order? I would use the freezer method.


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## DoctorCosmonaut

Are there not drugs or something that one can get from their vet to do the job? So that way if u couldn't get to them u could use them yourself?


----------



## stells

Aren't there laws over there where it wouldn't be quite legal to even do this????

Personally i couldn't even consider doing this myself... i know i'm a big wimp... but none of the ways mentioned in this thread i could do... i would never be able to shut the freezer door... drowning... now come on... kittens were mentioned earlier... but you would never drown one of those... would you Meg.... bringing that up doesn't come into it kittens are mammals... warm blooded... decapitation... i would be physically sick... gasing nope couldn't do that either.... so when it comes to it i am doomed lol

I would cool the tortoise off until i could get it to a vet and let them do it.... because its not physically in me to kill anything... well moths maybe....oh and slugs....

Maybe that makes just me very English.....


----------



## Shelly

DoctorCosmonaut said:


> Are there not drugs or something that one can get from their vet to do the job? So that way if u couldn't get to them u could use them yourself?



I'm not sure if Euthanol can be perscribed. Not sure too many Vets would be willing to do that even if it was. Bad for business...


----------



## chadk

DoctorCosmonaut said:


> I don't think Meg talked about drowining... but I may be wrong. I think she just referred to gassing with CO2... Not that I am advocating either... Nor freezing... Think my TROPICAL tort would not enjoy that... I don't know what I like! Well I don't like any of it... I mean what I think is best...
> 
> P.S. Shouldn't this thread be in debatable topics?



Yes, you are wrong 



Meg90 said:


> I would use CO2, and if I couldn't get that, I would drown it in warm water.
> 
> People keep saying "OHMYGOD" when you say drown, like I think its a pleasant thing to do. I do not think it would be pleasant. I think it would be horrifying. But it is quick. Tortoises do not swim (well, the majority of species don't) which means that without the knowledge and skill to hold their breath, it would be over quickly. In the case of species that do swim, like RF YF, I would pick CO2 as my first choice.
> 
> I cannot understand how anyone could put an animal in the refrigerator and leave them to die a slow, and painful death that would span days before they entered the freezer. How could you stand to listen to them, moving slower and slower scratching at the container trying to get out? For a species that doesn't hibernate, its no less than torturous.
> 
> I would rather live with the trauma of drowning a live animal than live with seeing their body slowly go lifeless as I'm getting milk for my cereal.
> 
> IMO the fridge/freezer method is the most inhumane death suggested in these last five pages.



As someone said earlier to my post regarding the use of dry ice - CO2 may not be effective on reptiles. Before experimenting, i'd be sure you KNOW your animal will die quickly as you hope... And in some cases, too much C02 can actually burn the lungs and just cause lots of pain and trauma before the animal dies. So know what you are doing before you start.

And your idea that a tort can't hold it's breath shows your inexperience. As somone noted the extreme cases of torts in swimming pools surviving... does your own tort never stick it's entire head under water to drink? My sullies and russians do that. Clearly they have figured out how not to drown with their face under water 

And even if they did drown, suffocation and drowning are still traumatic to the animal and they will panic and flail and try to get air. I thought the idea was to be instant, pain free, trauma free? .22 to the head does that just fine.

I have put down my own beloved family dog with a gun. It was the best thing I could think of to do for her. She hated the vet. There was no way I was going to bring her to the vet or even invite one over (she is too smart not to recognize a vet when she saw\smelled on....) on her last day. We took one last walk together. The thing she loved most. And in an instant, she was gone. Was traumatic (lots of smasms and convulsions to have to see) for me, but I knew it was best. 

I also have put down a few rabbits who had severe injuries. A smack on the back of the skull with a small club did the job. Then the chickens I have to cull out of my flock each year get decapitated. And believe it or not, that can be easier to mess up than you think. Same for the rabbits. So that is why I stress that you need to have a fool proof plan before you start. I messed up with my plan of a quick kill the first time on the rabbit and with a chicken. It worked fine in my head as I planned it, but reality was not so easy.

I also drowned a wild rabbit by hand once. NOT recommended. I found a rabbit caugt in somebodies leg type trap when I was about 12 in Texas. It was screaming like crazy (yes, rabbits have quite the vocal abililty) and there was a deep puddle right by it. I wanted to put it out of it's misery and stop that crazy screaming at the same time - so why not drown it I thought... I should have just whacked it behind the ears with a big stick or something... Point being, don't go by what sounds like a good idea in your head... You really don't want to find out if you were right or wrong in the heat of the moment....


----------



## -EJ

again... this is a reptile... not a mammal... very big difference.

Ok... You take your animal to the vet... for what ever reason...



Kayti said:


> I am having a hard time understanding why this is even a topic of conversation. When would a vet not be an option?
> 
> Seeing as we could never be 100% certain that any method other than extensively researched and medically approved methods of killing an animal are humane, why would you ever risk it? Especially something as logically flawed as freezing.
> 
> Would you try to euthanize a dog by yourself? How about a human? Hopefully not.
> 
> It's a lot more complicated than supposed "common sense" and just assuming a cold blooded animal will react to cold temperatures in a certain way. That's why vets go to school for 8+ years. (And even then some of them seem willing to risk an ill-informed decision, at least when it come to reptiles, I've found.)
> 
> Even if I thought my tortoise was in pain and dying, I would still take them to a vet. That way they would at least have a chance, and if not, access to a painless death.
> Vets aren't that expensive. I doubt euthanizing a tortoise would cost more that $100 at most.
> I think having a bit of savings you are willing to spend on vet bills in case of an emergency qualifies as basic care for any pet.


----------



## mctlong

reptylefreek said:


> Not everyone lives in the city and has a vet living practically next door. Not only that but I have family that lives on an island that doesn't even have a gas station on it... vet not an option for them at 2 in the morning. On top of that people need to stop thinking in terms of pet. When you run a business with hundreds of animals around you, you do not get attatched there for its easier to make a quick decision to put the animal out of its misery when you know its too late for them to survive. I thinks it's nieve to think a vet is your only option. If it's your beloved pet and you would spend a years salary to make it better thats your perogative. People on farms make these decisions all day, an animal is sick and would cost you more then its worth to save you put it outa its misery. What if you bred a clutch of torts and half the babies hatched undeveloped and clearly were not gonna make it. Is a vet in order? I would use the freezer method.



I can't stop thinking in terms of a pet. My tort _is_ a pet. Perhaps my thoughts would be diffrent if I were a breeder, but I'm not. I'm a pet owner and I would do anything and everything in my power to prevent suffering of my tort.

I agree that sometimes a vet is not an option. Some people live in isolated areas where there are no vets. It difficult to imagine having to put down an animal without a vet, but sadly its sometimes necessary. If my tort was seriously malled by a dog or a raccoon and there was no vet around to put it out of its misery, I'd do it myself. I'd want the animal put out of its misery as soon as possible.

I'm glad I live in an area where there are 24 hour vets.


----------



## Kayti

Shelly - Yes I am serious. I grew up on an island with no vet, but I still took all my animals to one when they needed it. Where I live now, the closest (good) vet is almost an hour away, but I do it. I can barely afford rent, but I still took my rat to the vet when she had a bacterial infection. I realize getting your animals to the vet can be hard, but it's not a choice in my opinion. When I chose to have pets, I chose to pay vet bills and drive long distances. 
I guess it could be entirely impossible in some circumstances- but you can always get medical advice over the phone. 



> People on farms make these decisions all day, an animal is sick and would cost you more then its worth to save you put it outa its misery.



Forgetting for a moment that I don't see serious ethical transgressions in profiting off of an animal without having its best interests in mind, I recognize that someone with a lot of animals, or a breeder looking to make money, might see the necessity of veterinarians differently. 

I have a friend who rescues cats out of her home- she works with a local shelter, and fosters massive amounts of cats and kittens every year. She keeps euthanasia shots at her home. She is not a vet, but she does have years and years of experience working with cats. I'm not sure about the legality of what she does, and I still think she should use qualified veterinarians to make medical decisions, but doing it herself is much cheaper/easier. 
If I lived faraway from society and veterinarians, I would probably do what she does for my pets. 


I think if it were easier to empathize with reptiles, no one would even consider guessing with methods to kill them. 



> I thinks it's nieve to think a vet is your only option. If it's your beloved pet and you would spend a years salary to make it better thats your perogative.



I really don't understand how someone could see valuing life as a just a personal prerogative. *I don't not want my pets to have painful deaths because I love them- I don't want them to have painful deaths because that would be wrong. *
I don't want any animal - or person for that matter - to suffer needlessly!


----------



## Madkins007

Let's please keep this topic on the 'hows' rather than the 'whys', ethics, animal rights, etc. Comparing to what you might or might not do for a human or other sort of animal is not really on topic here. It is also not going to be helpful to debate when one should or should not choose to use a vet- each of us has to make that sort of decision on our own.

This is already a difficult topic to discuss- lets not make it harder.


----------



## Kayti

Madkins007 said:


> Let's please keep this topic on the 'hows' rather than the 'whys', ethics, animal rights, etc. Comparing to what you might or might not do for a human or other sort of animal is not really on topic here. It is also not going to be helpful to debate when one should or should not choose to use a vet- each of us has to make that sort of decision on our own.
> 
> This is already a difficult topic to discuss- lets not make it harder.



But seeing a veterinarian is my "how" of euthanasia, and animal rights are the reasons why.


----------



## mctlong

Kayti said:


> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's please keep this topic on the 'hows' rather than the 'whys', ethics, animal rights, etc. Comparing to what you might or might not do for a human or other sort of animal is not really on topic here. It is also not going to be helpful to debate when one should or should not choose to use a vet- each of us has to make that sort of decision on our own.
> 
> This is already a difficult topic to discuss- lets not make it harder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But seeing a veterinarian is my "how" of euthanasia, and animal rights are the reasons why.
Click to expand...


I agree. Its difficult to separate the two.


----------



## Meg90

Oh whatever. I think shooting the family dog is a helluva lot more traumatic then taking it to the vet. I can't imagine telling a dog to sit, and stay and then backing up and shooting it. You can calm an animal down in the office. They let you pet them and be with them when the injection is done. If the owners are willing to take the time, it can be peaceful for their pet.

I also think half of the people here don't know what freezing DOES. You freeze from the outside in. First your extremeties then the rest of your body. It is PAINFUL. Eventually the tissues farthest away like your toes and hands, and feet turns necrotic, and dead. The blood no longer flows there, and the nerves begin to die. Has anyone here ever had a severe case of frostbite? Ever see what fingers look like when they are frozen? Your body parts actually begin to die, and blood no longer flows there. They are literally black, and dead. It is NOT painless.

Drowning at BEST takes minutes. SO what if tortoises submerge their heads to drink. That does NOT mean that they know how to hold their breath. I don't know how that would make sense to anyone. They drink the way a human does, by pausing for breath.

And Chad, WHAT species survive in a pool of water? If you will notice I said for animals with the capacity to swim, like a REDFOOT, I would use CO2, and not drowning. Your post was to be argumentative and nothing further. I covered both sides of that argument. I think people need to read more carefully.

It all boils down to this: what is 6, 10 minuntes of trauma when compared to a death that would take days? Especially if the animals in "injured" from being a chew toy, or is it bad shape from some other ailment. How did a quick death become less humane than something that would take DAYS?


----------



## Shelly

Kayti said:


> Shelly - Yes I am serious. I grew up on an island with no vet, but I still took all my animals to one when they needed it.



We are not talking about YOUR pets! We are talking about any tortoise or turtle that you may encounter.
So if you find a badly injured turtle in the road at 2 AM, you are going to drop everything, get on a boat, travel for who knows how long, find an emergency Vet, sit in the waiting room for an hour, and pay at least $100 (not counting boat tickets) to euthanize the turtle?
If you would do that, you are nothing short of a saint. I, on the other hand, am not a saint.



Meg90 said:


> Oh whatever. I think shooting the family dog is a helluva lot more traumatic then taking it to the vet. I can't imagine telling a dog to sit, and stay and then backing up and shooting it. You can calm an animal down in the office. They let you pet them and be with them when the injection is done. If the owners are willing to take the time, it can be peaceful for their pet.



You sound like somebody that takes their dog to the vet every time it hiccups. Your dog is probably very comfortable there, and used to car trips, etc.
My old dog is blind, and hasn't been in a car more than 3-4 times in her life, and that was when she was sighted. She hated car trips, and would vomit and urinate over everything.
When the time comes, I will take her to the vet, and it will be hugely traumatic for both of us.
But if I lived in the country, and owned a gun, and had the courage, I would shoot her while she slept.


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## chadk

Meg, I used to work in a vet hospital. I've held dogs while they got injected. I know first hand what it is like for the family dog to look desperately for their owner as they are dragged into the examining room for the shot. Peeing on the floor. Crying out. Trembling the whole time.... And I've seen old dogs come in, like they already know what is coming. Just sit there with a look of tiredness and duty and take the shot without so much as a whimper. But my dog was the kind that hated the vet. Even though she could no longer walk on her own, I carried the german shepherd down a trail in the woods and could see the joy and excitement as she was in her element. And I chose to put her last minutes above my own fears and nerves in doing what I knew would be the qucikest and least traumatic experience for HER. Not everyone has what it takes to do this, for better or worse, but I knew, for her, it was best. (ever read "of mice and men"... I kinda got the idea from that I think)

And my only point in these stories of mine is to share some experiences that may help others. As I have learned the hard way, taking a life is traumatic, and if you mess up, it is 10 times more traumatic for both sides. Do some research and have a plan ahead of time...

Seriously, did you read the other post about the torts in the swimming pools?

How does a tort drink with it's head under for a good minute or 2 and NOT know how to hold it's breath?? I don't drink with my whole head under water... Do you?? And isn't 'pausing' for breath pretty much the same as holding your breath??????? If i put my head under water, and pause for a few seconds, then take it out and breath... I just held my breath!!  And again, 5 minutes, even 5 seconds, if it can be avoided, is really too much. The whole point is to do be instant and painless...


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## Meg90

So you are against the freezer method then Chad? Are you voting for decap or shooting?


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## -EJ

I had a favorite pet put down. It was hurtful but peaceful.

I've dealt with reptiles for over 30 years. Freezing is still the most practical means of euthanisinga reptile.



chadk said:


> Meg, I used to work in a vet hospital. I've held dogs while they got injected. I know first hand what it is like for the family dog to look desperately for their owner as they are dragged into the examining room for the shot. Peeing on the floor. Crying out. Trembling the whole time.... And I've seen old dogs come in, like they already know what is coming. Just sit there with a look of tiredness and duty and take the shot without so much as a whimper. But my dog was the kind that hated the vet. Even though she could no longer walk on her own, I carried the german shepherd down a trail in the woods and could see the joy and excitement as she was in her element. And I chose to put her last minutes above my own fears and nerves in doing what I knew would be the qucikest and least traumatic experience for HER. Not everyone has what it takes to do this, for better or worse, but I knew, for her, it was best. (ever read "of mice and men"... I kinda got the idea from that I think)
> 
> And my only point in these stories of mine is to share some experiences that may help others. As I have learned the hard way, taking a life is traumatic, and if you mess up, it is 10 times more traumatic for both sides. Do some research and have a plan ahead of time...
> 
> Seriously, did you read the other post about the torts in the swimming pools?
> 
> How does a tort drink with it's head under for a good minute or 2 and NOT know how to hold it's breath?? I don't drink with my whole head under water... Do you?? And isn't 'pausing' for breath pretty much the same as holding your breath??????? If i put my head under water, and pause for a few seconds, then take it out and breath... I just held my breath!!  And again, 5 minutes, even 5 seconds, if it can be avoided, is really too much. The whole point is to do be instant and painless...


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## chadk

Like I said, I can't see decapition being easy. It's not like they will stick out their neck willingly and hold it nice and still for you. You'd need a good sharp hatchet and a good chopping block - and a way to keep the neck outstretched. I once had to try to cut the head off a snapping turtle i THOUGHT was already dead. Wasn't going to happen... They have a lot of muscles in their necks. Just using a sharp knife or a good sized tort is going to be harder than you might think. Even on a chicken I found it took a certain technique to be quick and clean. Freezing would be my choice before that, but would need to research more first. But in my circumstances, living where I do and with access to my guns... a bullet would be the closest thing to instant and painless - so I'd do that. But many of you don't have that option or would not want that option.


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## bettinge

If the pain involved with lethal injection is still being debated for humans, were decades away from absolutes when it comes to pets! With that said we all have different opinions, and thats all they are is opinions, why do we argue about the BEST way to put down an animal. Opinions are like as.h...............never mind!

Its hard for me to believe that anything is quicker and less painless than decapation, but I personally don't have the guts to do that to a deer, let alone my pet. Its odd, because that statement alone puts my feelings and pain ahead of the animals!

While decap and drowning are not for me, I do respect that others do see these as viable options.

Now we can add euthanasia methods to D3, aquariams, Mazuri, UVB, water bowls, etc, etc.....to the topics we don't ALL see eye to eye on. But really, isn't that what a forum is all about? If Meg, or Chad, or EJ, or Madkins or Danny or Yvonne.............was always right, we have no forum!


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## terryo

OMG!! I can't believe what I'm reading....I feel like I'm in the twilight zone......In all the years I'm on forums.....I have never read a thread like this one. What a horror...it just gets sicker.....


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## Isa

Really nice post Kayti, I think that a vet is always an option wherever you live. 
Terry, same here. I can't believe what I am reading!!!!


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## Shelly

Isa said:


> Really nice post Kayti, I think that a vet is always an option wherever you live.



Unbelievable.....


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## Isa

Shelly said:


> Isa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really nice post Kayti, I think that a vet is always an option wherever you live.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unbelievable.....
Click to expand...


I think this thread is unbelievable! If you have something to say about what I believe is right, just send me a PM!!!! I do not like trouble maker!


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## Yvonne G

I think this thread has pretty much run its course, don't you all? The original question was, "What is the best way to euthanize a badly injured tortoise or turtle if a vet is not an option? Does anybody know of a humane method that does not involve violence and gore?"

I think we've all given our opinions, strayed away from the original subject and gotten all of our feathers ruffled. Time to step back and either leave the thread or get back on course and offer a quiet suggestion.


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## Kymiie

Yvonne, this is just my opinion but I totally agree with you.. It gets me ad every time I read it and to be honest it has most people, Honestly.. i think this should be deleted if it is possible, but that is only my opinion... I know the TFO is here to help but i dont think this thread has helped any1

xx


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## Madkins007

Meg90 said:


> I also think half of the people here don't know what freezing DOES. You freeze from the outside in. First your extremeties then the rest of your body. It is PAINFUL. Eventually the tissues farthest away like your toes and hands, and feet turns necrotic, and dead. The blood no longer flows there, and the nerves begin to die. Has anyone here ever had a severe case of frostbite? Ever see what fingers look like when they are frozen? Your body parts actually begin to die, and blood no longer flows there. They are literally black, and dead. It is NOT painless.
> 
> Drowning at BEST takes minutes. SO what if tortoises submerge their heads to drink. That does NOT mean that they know how to hold their breath. I don't know how that would make sense to anyone. They drink the way a human does, by pausing for breath.



Meg, please provide some evidence of your claims. The reports of people who have frozen almost solid and revived do not generally include any comments about pain (other than the pain of the thawing and treatment process) [http://outside.away.com/outside/magazine/0197/9701fefreez.html] and almost every report mentions that numbness sets in early in humans- so why not in other mammals and reptiles. 

By the way- GETTING frostbite is rather painless (otherwise, you'd feel it happening to you) in fact, you even mentioned that the part is dead- which means the nerves no longer work. It is the thawing and treatment that HURT. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostbite]

As for drowning, if a tortoise can survive a pure CO2 environment for 27 hours, how are you going to drown it in anything less than that time? Drowning works by blocking oxygen absorption, but turtles need so little oxygen that it takes forever for that to affect them. Remember- water turtles hibernating under the mud are effectively holding their breath for months at a time and tortoises share much of that metabolism. [http://www.tortoisereserve.org/sundry/Hibernate_Body2.html]

They also obviously know how to hold their breath- otherwise they would breathe in as they drank or entered the water. 

I agree that a quick death is preferably to long suffering. We just disagree on the mechanics.



emysemys said:


> I think this thread has pretty much run its course, don't you all? The original question was, "What is the best way to euthanize a badly injured tortoise or turtle if a vet is not an option? Does anybody know of a humane method that does not involve violence and gore?"
> 
> I think we've all given our opinions, strayed away from the original subject and gotten all of our feathers ruffled. Time to step back and either leave the thread or get back on course and offer a quiet suggestion.



I'm sorry, I was posting an earlier reply even as you were posting this. I agree that we've probably answered the OP.


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## stells

I have been searching high and low on SW for a story on their of someones Redfoot that ended up in a very deep pond.... nobody knows how long it was there... but it came out of the situation alive and kicking... i so wish i could find the thread...


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## Yvonne G

stells said:


> I have been searching high and low on SW for a story on their of someones Redfoot that ended up in a very deep pond.... nobody knows how long it was there... but it came out of the situation alive and kicking... i so wish i could find the thread...



I took a female desert tortoise to the vet for an abscess on her nose. The vet wanted to anesthetize her to excise it, however after holding the cone over her nose (head) for over a half hour, he couldn't get her to breathe in the chemical. She was holding her breath.


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## gummybearpoop

I have euthanized a reptile using the freezer method. After research, I chose my option and have no regrets. It was sad, but it was more sad to see my animal suffer.

Sometimes, we have to make important decisions for our pets, ourselves, and others we care about. Sometimes, you have to get to that point and you do what is necessary for the "victim" and yourself.

Everyone's decision is like an opinion and we may not be all on the same page. 

Hopefully, no one else has to make such a decision, but inevitably it will happen. We honestly do not know which is more painful for an animal because us humans all have different measures/penchants for pain. I have had a broken clavicle and the bone pierced my skin. I was fine and I waited 7 hours before I saw a doctor (which I was forced which was good because of the risk of infection). I was actually laughing about it and my friend forced me to stop laughing so much because blood would squirt out of my wound. Some people cry when they get a small laceration or paper cut. Every human is different. I know this is going off track, but pretty much I am saying pain is difficult to measure regardless of who it is.

Pretty much it comes down to if you can live with your decision on your euthanization-method.


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## Yvonne G

gummybearpoop said:


> We honestly do not know which is more painful for an animal because us humans all have different measures/penchants for pain.



And in this same vein: Animals, whether mammal or reptile, can compartmentalize their pain and not feel it like us humans do. I've seen quite a few badly injured turtles that acted normally, trying to get away, running along the ground as if nothing were wrong with them, all the while I could see their heart beating through the hole chewed by a dog. We can't put our human feelings on an animal. They are much better at hiding pain than we are.


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## gummybearpoop

emysemys said:


> gummybearpoop said:
> 
> 
> 
> We honestly do not know which is more painful for an animal because us humans all have different measures/penchants for pain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And in this same vein: Animals, whether mammal or reptile, can compartmentalize their pain and not feel it like us humans do. I've seen quite a few badly injured turtles that acted normally, trying to get away, running along the ground as if nothing were wrong with them, all the while I could see their heart beating through the hole chewed by a dog. We can't put our human feelings on an animal. They are much better at hiding pain than we are.
Click to expand...



Very true. Many times you will see animals in the wild with missing limbs that have healed and the animal is still thriving. Most of us weak humans would probably bleed to death if we lost a limb without medical attention.


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## terryo

By the way- GETTING frostbite is rather painless (otherwise, you'd feel it happening to you) in fact, you even mentioned that the part is dead- which means the nerves no longer work. It is the thawing and treatment that HURT. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostbite]

I don't know about this statement Mark....Before the nerves die ...there is pain...just like when a person gets burned. 
I won't go into detail with this story....Several years ago a rescue Bull Terrier had frost bit (my dog). He almost lost his foot...we were very lucky....He was in terrible pain, and was on a pain drip for days....Was the pain while he was freezing, or when he was warming up?.....BOTH according to our Vet. Wasn't anyone ever out in the snow, and your hands were so cold that they hurt? I was. I'm sure this doesn't apply to tortoises, but.....How would anyone know what a tortoise feels?? They cannot tell us. As far as I'm concerned...We don't know. There are signs to tell how a dog feels pain, a human can tell us if he feels pain, but a tortoise....NO. Sorry, but I can't even read any more of this thread....it's really getting me grossed out.....guess cause I'm a city gal and don't live on a farm, and never had to do the things mentioned here......Thank God!


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## Meg90

That's a bunch of bulljunk about it not hurting to get frostbite. Have you ever been COLD?

In WI right now it is like 22F out and let me tell you walking SIX blocks to class makes my hands hurt like hell. 

If you think it doesn't hurt to be frozen, then I dare you to fill a bucket with ice and put your hands in it. I wanna know how long you can keep them their before you feel pain.


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## gummybearpoop

Meg90 said:


> That's a bunch of bulljunk about it not hurting to get frostbite. Have you ever been COLD?
> 
> In WI right now it is like 22F out and let me tell you walking SIX blocks to class makes my hands hurt like hell.
> 
> If you think it doesn't hurt to be frozen, then I dare you to fill a bucket with ice and put your hands in it. I wanna know how long you can keep them their before you feel pain.



To me the cold doesn't hurt. After a while, my body becomes numb and I don't feel too much. 

I even have pictures of me barbequing without a shirt in the snow. But there is no need to post that. haha 

In addition, I was out in the snow in Germany in just my underwear. It was cold, but not painful.

Do not ask me how I get in these situations.


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## Candy

My sister and brother-in-law love to eat Lobster and we argue about it just like on this thread. I ask them why they would drop something in a boiling hot pot and not expect that it's going to suffer, but they don't want to admit it to themselves because they want to be able to eat this very expensive seafood. To me it's more like the roach that lives and eats everything at the bottom of the ocean. I think it has to do with we're humans so who cares. If we don't understand it than it doesn't exist.


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## bettinge

Ice water is 32F which your body can feel and it does hurt. A -30F wind does not hurt because it kills the layers of skin so fast, and thats what's so dangerous about frostbite. I get frostbite at least once a year snowmobiling. I never know I have frostbite until long after I got it, usually when we are warming up in a resturant. Its not unusual to snowmobile in northern NY in -25F wheather with 60 MPH winds. Very dangerous if your skin is not covered!

This is just my experience with frostbite, it may be different for other!


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## dmmj

Re: lobsters, there is study after study that shows that lobsters don't register pain when that happens, I know everyone talks about the lobster screaming when you boil it but that is just air escaping from it's shell. I am not saying to start eating lobster if you are against it, but they don't register pain like we do, has to do with the way their nervous system is, not as developed and stuff like that. reptiles on the other hand can feel pain, but I have seen turtle (RES) with missing limbs acting like nothing is wrong and healed I know if I lost a limb I would most likely bleed to death without a doctor's help. But remember I am a highlander so the only way to get rid of me is to cut off my head. There can be only one.


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## chadk

I think we need to clear up a few things. Dieing of exposure, like in the movies, is not really the same as "freezing to death". What happens to most people who end up lost in the mountains or fall overboard in the cold water (even here in the Puget Sound) is that they die, not from freezing, but from hypothermia. This kills many people each year. It does not have to be freezing for this to happen. Your core body temp just has to reach a certain level. If you are cold, wet, and have no way to keep your body warm, you are at risk of hypothermia. And yes, you can fall asleep and never wake up if you have, or are getting hypothermia. Now I don't know enough about how this translates to torts... But I can see how EJ's fridge first, then freezer method would work - get the animal into a sleep or near sleeping hypothermic state, then freeze...


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## Candy

dmmj said:


> Re: lobsters, there is study after study that shows that lobsters don't register pain when that happens, I know everyone talks about the lobster screaming when you boil it but that is just air escaping from it's shell. I am not saying to start eating lobster if you are against it, but they don't register pain like we do, has to do with the way their nervous system is, not as developed and stuff like that. reptiles on the other hand can feel pain, but I have seen turtle (RES) with missing limbs acting like nothing is wrong and healed I know if I lost a limb I would most likely bleed to death without a doctor's help. But remember I am a highlander so the only way to get rid of me is to cut off my head. There can be only one.



I would love to read those so called studies. Sounds like humans did them if they were done at all. I mean why would they study whether or not a Lobster feels pain or not? Maybe they put that out there so we humans don't feel bad about it. Plus I know studies have been done on a lot of things and later on they find gee they were wrong. I do not believe that story of air escaping. I think that's probably made up by someone who sells Lobsters. So in these studies do they tell what the Lobster feels at all or do they have a clue? I find it hard to believe that they don't feel any pain. I am having such a hard time believing that you drop something (anything living) in boiling water and it's eyes don't feel anything, it's internal organs don't feel anything, it's shell that probably has a lining which harbor those nerves you were mentioning don't feel anything. That just really seems inpossible to me.


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## dmmj

Ask and you shall recieve candy here is one
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/14/tech/main673989.shtml
Norwegian university and reported by CBS I do not post stuff here without being able to back it up. I hope this helps even if it is totally off topic.
It may not be definitive but I also read more proof if you need it that by putting them in upside down temporaily stuns them enough until they are dead by the water anyways.


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## Madkins007

Meg and Terryo, re: frostbite.

I posted a link for a reason- to back up my statement. Wikipedia says:

"Stage 1
First degree frostbite causes skin to appear yellow or white. There may also be slight burning sensations. This stage of frostbite is relatively mild and can be reversed by the gradual warming of the affected area.

Stage 2
Second degree frostbite develops after continued exposure. This stage is characterized by the disappearance of pain and the reddening and swelling of the skin. Treatment in this stage may result in blisters and it may also peel the skin."

So- some burning or tingling sensations in Stage 1 (rarely described as very painful), and the disappearance of pain in Stage 2. This pattern is discussed in almost all descriptions of frostbite-
- http://www.emedicinehealth.com/frostbite/page3_em.htm#Frostbite Symptoms
- http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000057.htm
- and so on. 

This topic is hard enough to discuss. Let's try to keep things based on facts when possible.


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## terryo

This topic is hard enough to discuss. Let's try to keep things based on facts when possible. 

I DO know how you love "facts", Mark....lol You remind me of my son who is a real research junkie.
I am not a Dr. Mark, and I did NO research...I am only going by what my Vet told me when I brought my dog in. 
My question still remains.....how do we know if a tortoise feels pain...has there ever been any research done on that? When my old Ornate Boxie was sick, and I had to give injections every day, she sure pulled in her leg when she saw me coming.


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## Meg90

How would "burning" not be considered a painful feeling??


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