# PetSmart Caresheets



## Kayti (Nov 28, 2009)

I apologize if someone has brought this up before, but recently I was stuck in a Petsmart and got bored enough to pick up a care sheet there. What I read was absolutely horrible! I can't believe they dispense advice to people (usually the parents of much younger pet owners, from what I've seen) that is so obviously wrong.

Here's a link to the Russian tortoise care sheet 
http://www.petsmart.com/uc/petartic...nt/reptile/care/tortoise/RussianTortoise.html

"Vegetables
80% of the diet should be raw and cooked vegetables. Choose romaine or green leaf lettuce, yellow peppers and tomatoes; cooked sweet potatoes, squash and cauliflower.

Fruit
About 20% of the diet should be fruit like apples, melons, grapes, bananas and plums. Offer every third or fourth feeding."

UGH!

Here is a link to all the tortoises and turtles they carry:
http://promotions.petsmart.com/landing/turtle/choosing-the-right-turtle.shtml
Read and rage. 

My question is, does anyone know who I should contact about this? Petsmart online has a contact page, but the only people you can reach is customer service employees. I want to write a letter, and I think it'd be really helpful if a lot of other people wrote letters too- specifically people who know about Greeks, Red Foots, Cherry head red foots, ornate wood turtles, and aquatic turtles. I wouldn't know what to look for in their caresheets, but I'm pretty sure they're just as bad as the Russians'. 

I'm going to keep looking for someone to contact, I'll let you know what I find.


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## Sudhira (Nov 28, 2009)

I went into Petsmart today in Sand City Calif. They had a small Russian for sale $109.00 listed as 6" but was smaller. Had a bowl of water with rim too high IMHO, and a bowl of colored dry pellets for food. I am going to try to email them WTH???


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## Kadaan (Nov 28, 2009)

What specifically do you find wrong with the caresheet?

That diet doesn't sound _that_ bad. The only thing I would change is to remove tomatoes and add grasses/weeds to the list. Although I guess it's better to not put those in case the new owner just picks up any grass/weeds from their yard without checking if it's safe. 80/20 seems a bit high, but once every 5 days isn't much different than once a week. "Cooked vegetables" scared me at first, but cooked squash and sweet potatoes are fine, not sure about cauliflower.

The care sheet also says...
- "Wait 3-4 days for your pet to adjust to his new surroundings. Then try holding him for short amounts of time, and offering food by hand."
- "Russian tortoises need to live in a temperate, moderately humid environment."
- "Provide a shallow dish with water for drinking and soaking and change it daily."
- It says to make the temperature 70-85F with a basking area of 95-100.
- "Line the home with 2"-3" of coconut fiber or bark bedding and change it at least once a month." (no sand or pellets, good!)
(All GREAT instructions for a beginner)

As far as a care guide for beginners, I'd give it a 9/10.


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## Kayti (Nov 28, 2009)

Kadaan said:


> What specifically do you find wrong with the caresheet?
> 
> That diet doesn't sound _that_ bad. The only thing I would change is to remove tomatoes and add grasses/weeds to the list. Although I guess it's better to not put those in case the new owner just picks up any grass/weeds from their yard without checking if it's safe. 80/20 seems a bit high, but once every 5 days isn't much different than once a week. "Cooked vegetables" scared me at first, but cooked squash and sweet potatoes are fine, not sure about cauliflower.
> 
> ...



Did we read the same caresheet?

It says 80% raw or cooked vegetables, and 20% fruit. Romain and lettuce are listed among the vegetables, but the rest are "yellow peppers and tomatoes; cooked sweet potatoes, squash and cauliflower."
The caresheet also says "A diet rich in red and yellow colored foods will help keep your tortoise's shell from fading." What? They put this in specifically to sell tortoise pellets, which are typically brown, red and yellow at petsmart. 
They also recommend a humidity of around 55%, which in coconut fiber (the substrate they recommend in this care sheet) means it would be bone dry at least 90% of the time. 
There is only a passing reference to having water available, and this caresheet fails to make it clear that you must actively soak a tortoise regularly. 
They also recommend keeping a tortoise in a vivarium, probably because they are so expensive. 

I agree that these caresheets are for beginners and I guess I would hope that someone taking home a tortoise f would do their own additional research, but I think if they have done so little research as to buy wild caught reptiles from a place like PetSmart or Petco, I highly doubt they will. The pamphlets in the stores I have observed are handed out to buyers as an afterthought, or as a way to justify pushing ridiculous amounts of useless and expensive products on them that often do more harm than good. 
I think it's just as easy to make a proper beginner's caresheet as a bad one. They are in a position of responsibility to the animals they are profiting off of, and personally I think that a tortoise is never a beginner's reptile, not even a Russian.


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## webskipper (Nov 28, 2009)

Kayti:

You are correct. They should be providing a great experience for every client. If someone keeps going back to another animal because that last one died, what kind of business is that?

I bet if we gave them a caresheet with our Forum name on it, they would take the bait and we can help the newbie take care of the little dinosaur.

A buddy of mine actually had one one those cheesy turtle tanks with the fake palm tree like we had in pre-school on the kitchen island. Then it was moved to the coffee table. Apparently fido got the 2 RES. Same guy was told by PetsnotsoSmart to put the 2 new turtles in a shoe box and hibernate them in the closet. Um. When does it get that cold indoors on the first floor? I told him that those 2 are going to live a painful death. Get them out into at least a 10-15 gallon 1" of water and nurse them to health. Or give them to me for a few months. Next year, they can hibernate in the Fridge.


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## Shelly (Nov 28, 2009)

webskipper said:


> A buddy of mine actually had one one those cheesy turtle tanks with the fake palm tree like we had in pre-school on the kitchen island. Then it was moved to the coffee table. Apparently fido got the 2 RES. Same guy was told by PetsnotsoSmart to put the 2 new turtles in a shoe box and hibernate them in the closet. Um. When does it get that cold indoors on the first floor? I told him that those 2 are going to live a painful death. Get them out into at least a 10-15 gallon 1" of water and nurse them to health. Or give them to me for a few months. Next year, they can hibernate in the Fridge.



Um, Sliders don't hibernate.


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## webskipper (Nov 28, 2009)

[/quote]
Um, Sliders don't hibernate.
[/quote]

I stand corrected. Thanks for the catch. Luckily they are in a tank right now.


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## Yvonne G (Nov 28, 2009)

Shelly said:


> Um, Sliders don't hibernate.



Um, yes they do...or else my 6 large females in the pond have been spending some pretty cold winters for the past few years! and living to tell the tale. Some sliders (or water turtles) like to get out of the water and bury themselves in the leaf litter for the winter, others like to bury in the sludge in the bottom of the pond. Its really not a true hibernation, though, because they do come up on real sunny days and bask.


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## Shelly (Nov 29, 2009)

emysemys said:


> Shelly said:
> 
> 
> > Um, Sliders don't hibernate.
> ...



They are very inactive, but like you said it is not really a true hibernation.

Many years ago I bought a sideneck turtle from Petsmart after they assured me it would thrive year round in my backyard pond. Of course it died that winter. Stupid idiots. I will never spend another dime with those morons.


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## Madkins007 (Nov 29, 2009)

Technically, reptilian 'hibernation' is called 'brumation', but even most zoologiests and herpetologists use 'hibernation' since it is the more familiar term. When sliders and tortoises go into brumation, they change metabolic states and processes on many levels- especially how they process oxygen and calories. This is not just a state of inactivity or sleep. 

The various states of torpor or dormancy in animals can get confusing, but reptiles DO enter a hibernation-like state.

Sources (OK, I did not look it up, I already knew it, but you can read more at):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormancy (Good starting point)
http://lllreptile.com/info/library/care-and-husbandry-articles/-/reptilian-brumation/
http://www.tortoise.org/archives/chrysemy.html (about 2/3rds down)

Katy, I hate to say it, but there are are a lot of Russian Tortoise keepers and breeders who would disagree with some of your statements. Forced soaks are controversial, a dry substrate would be a lot less than 55% humid, and even Dr. Mader ("Reptile Medicine and Surgery") recommends more fruits and veggies in herbivorous tortoise diets than many people suggest.

It is very easy to start thinking that we have the right or perfect answer, but the reality is- we cannot even agree on the perfect HUMAN diet after centuries of research and practice. There is no such thing as a perfect dog care sheet, or even agreement on a way to raise white rats- the animal that has been the MOST studied, and domesticated for the most generations, of any animal on Earth.

I have read a lot of PetSmart's sheets and I can nitpick with the best of them- but overall, for a free product. they are not horrible- just usually too vague and generic. I also do not see that they are very aggressive at hyping their products.


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## Maggie Cummings (Nov 29, 2009)

RES DO hibernate...it's really a brumation of sorts. I was taught that on a sunny day they might wake up and bask, but then they go back into that hi/brumation state...Yvonne as usual offered great advice...very educational...


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## Kadaan (Nov 29, 2009)

Kayti said:


> It says 80% raw or cooked vegetables, and 20% fruit. Romain and lettuce are listed among the vegetables, but the rest are "yellow peppers and tomatoes; cooked sweet potatoes, squash and cauliflower."
> The caresheet also says "A diet rich in red and yellow colored foods will help keep your tortoise's shell from fading." What? They put this in specifically to sell tortoise pellets, which are typically brown, red and yellow at petsmart.
> They also recommend a humidity of around 55%, which in coconut fiber (the substrate they recommend in this care sheet) means it would be bone dry at least 90% of the time.
> There is only a passing reference to having water available, and this caresheet fails to make it clear that you must actively soak a tortoise regularly.
> They also recommend keeping a tortoise in a vivarium, probably because they are so expensive.



I believe I said I don't quite agree with the 80/20 thing, but it's not BAD and it's not going to cause a Russian to be malnourished or anything. For their target audience (people who will probably only buy food for their tort at the grocery store,) those are some of the best commonly available foods. I've never heard the red/yellow foods vs shell color thing, but it sounds plausible. I 100% disagree with you saying that they say that to sell pellets. All their examples of non-green foods (minus cauliflower) were yellow/red. If they say a diet with "lots of green colored foods," I wouldn't think they meant to feed them alfalfa pellets. In fact I'm surprised they don't even mention feeding them pellets at all.

An enclosure kept at 55% humidity, even measured right at surface level, will have substrate quite a bit higher than that (since the measured humidity will be from evaporation in the substrate.)

You don't *have* to actively soak a tortoise regularly. It encourages them to release their old water and drink fresh water, to poo, keeps them clean, and can help with humidity in the enclosure, but it's not going to hurt them if their environment is suitable.

A 40g terrarium is generally around 3' x 1.5' x 1.5' (and they say it must be ventilated.) I wouldn't recommend a vivarium to hold an adult Russian, but it's better than 90% of people who buy one from petsmart and stick it in a 10 or 20g tank. In that same sentence, they also say "or, use a waterproof container, at least 2' x 4', with 1.5'- 2' high sides." Sounds like good advice to me, and they don't even sell containers like that so it's 100% lost sales to give good advice.




If you look at caresheets around the web, it's always possible to disagree with something (there are keepers on the forum with decades of experience who use terrariums, and the breeder I purchased my Greek from *highly* recommended all-weather carpeting instead of substrate.) What really matters though, is will someone with no knowledge of Russian tortoises be able to follow this care sheet and care for a healthy tortoise? I believe so.


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## Kayti (Dec 1, 2009)

Well, I guess it's a debatable topic then. Personally, I think these kind of vague caresheets are setting people (who don't know any better) up for disaster. They see tank, and they think 10 gallon. They see fruits and vegetables, and they don't think greens. From my experience working in pet stores, it's often parents appeasing children who fall in love with these "beginner" pets (conveniently placed at their eye level) who will seek out the bare minimum of care they can get away with. They're busy, and they're not pet people- but they're a very huge part of the pet trade. 
My Sulcata came from such a situation, and she was on the verge of death when I got her. Her sibling had already died. The person taking care of her was the mother of the owner- a little girl in middle school. They followed the advice given to them by a pet store. 

To anyone who disagrees with these caresheets, I found a contact for getting in touch with PetSmart's corporate headquarters:

PetSmart, Inc.
19601 North 27th Avenue
Phoenix, AZ 85027
Phone: (623) 580-6100 

I'm writing a polite letter with plenty of citations as soon as my darn finals are over.

Also, no hard feelings to those who take no issue with these caresheets! I know tortoise care is a complicated and often contradictory world, and there will always be another opinion.


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## Shelly (Dec 1, 2009)

Shelly said:


> Many years ago I bought a sideneck turtle from Petsmart after they assured me it would thrive year round in my backyard pond. Of course it died that winter. Stupid idiots. I will never spend another dime with those morons.



I actually now realized it was Petco, not Petsmart........


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## Stephanie Logan (Dec 1, 2009)

webskipper said:


> Kayti:
> 
> You are correct. They should be providing a great experience for every client. If someone keeps going back to another animal because that last one died, what kind of business is that?
> 
> ...



I think it's a great idea and I hope Kayti tries it while in the pleasant semi-exhausted state (NOT hibernation, nor yet brumation) that college students sink into after finals have concluded.

And, Webskipper, I just noticed your really funny and cool avatar. Is that a rocket propulsion pack? That would make a great Christmas card. Or t-shirt!!

Did you photo shop it, or did your tortie let you use him for a model?


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## webskipper (Dec 1, 2009)

webskipper said:


> I think it's a great idea and I hope Kayti tries it while in the pleasant semi-exhausted state (NOT hibernation, nor yet brumation) that college students sink into after finals have concluded.
> 
> And, Webskipper, I just noticed your really funny and cool avatar. Is that a rocket propulsion pack? That would make a great Christmas card. Or t-shirt!!
> 
> Did you photo shop it, or did your tortie let you use him for a model?



Did not make it. Found it last year while setting up a forum site. There are a bunch of really goofy Turtle/Tort smilies out there. Thanks though. Rocket Tortoise.

With the right logos, we could use a site like c a f e e x p r e s s dot com and have all kinds of stuff to wear or clutter our people cages.


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