# can tort eat leaves treated with Neem oil?



## Yvonne G (Mar 20, 2012)

This subject came up on another thread, and I didn't want to derail that thread with MY question. I'd be interested in hearing from folks like redbeef about the subject.

I bought a bottle of Neem oil because I was told by a friend that it will keep the grape leaf skeletonizer larvae off my grape vines. I pick grape leaves to include in my baby tortoises' greens and wondered how easy is the Neem oil to wash off, or do I even need to wash it off?


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## yagyujubei (Mar 21, 2012)

Toxicity

Studies done when Azadirachtin (the primary active pesticidal ingredient in neem oil) was approved as a pesticide showed that when neem leaves were fed to male albino rats for 11 weeks, 100% (reversible) infertility resulted.

Neem oil and other neem products such as neem leaves and neem tea should not be consumed by pregnant women, women trying to conceive, or children.

There is some evidence that heavy use may be associated with liver damage in children.[2

So, I think washed, and used sparingly, you should be fine.


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## kimber_lee_314 (Mar 21, 2012)

I use Neem Oil on my bonsai - and it can be pretty sticky. I wouldn't allow my tortoises to eat anything it was used on. I'm not sure about the pest you're talking about - but I use Neem for spider mites and aphids. I have found a soapy spray is just as effective for both and rinses off completely. You might try it to see if that works for your pests.


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## ascott (Mar 21, 2012)

Yvonne, I know you google so you likely have the same basic info about neem oil/seeds

Used in male/female during tests of infertility (although after about a year the infertility ceases.

Used in shampoo/conditioners/toothpaste 

Children should never be exposed to the oil or allowed to ingest

It has natural properties used as an insecticide/pesticide

Yvonne, I see it has some positive aspects but the couple that are mentioned as negative are pretty risky to me (especially insecticide/pesticide)...It does not sound like something I would use nor feed food sprayed with it...again, that is just my gut opinion


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## redbeef (Mar 21, 2012)

i just bought some to control the black aphid on my greenhouse habaneros...so i'll copy down the relevant info on the label,
it's green light's NEEMII which has a big sticker/banner on the front that says "use up to day of harvest"...but in reading some of the cautions, I'd shy away from this statement as a good way to go about using it:

"HAZARDS TO HUMANS AND DOMESTIC ANIMALS
CAUTION: Harmful if absorbed through skin. Causes moderate eye irritation. Harmful if inhaled. Avoid breathing spray mist. Avoid contact w/skin, eyes, or clothing. Wash thoroughly w/soap and water after handling and before eating, drinking, chewing gum or using tobacco. Remove and wash contaminated clothing before reuse. Wear: Long-sleeved shirt and long pants, socks, shoes, gloves. Prolonged or frequently repeated skin contact may cause allergic reactions in some individuals."
[...] not for use in food handling areas [...] As w/other products that contain oils, take care in timing applications to early morning/late afternoon/early evening to minimize the potential for leaf burn [...] Do not apply to know spray sensitive plant species such as impatiens flowers, fuchsia flowers, hibiscus flowers, some rose flowers, ornamental olive trees, red maples, some carnation varieties or similar plants w/out prior testing. keep unprotected persons out of treated areas until sprays have dried"
----

and here's what wikipedia has to say "Azadirachtin is biodegradable (it degrades within 100 hours when exposed to light and water) and shows very low toxicity to mammals (the LD50 in rats is > 3,540 mg/kg making it practically non-toxic)"

So, I would feel OK using it, but I'd definitely want to wash it off before using it and I also think I wouldn't use the sprayed leaves for feeding until at least that 100 hour mark had elapsed...

I have to admit that I am actually a lot more careful about what I feed my tortoise and turtle than what I feed myself and my dog...it might sound a little backwards  but then I've heard amphibians are exceptionally sensitive to environmental toxins and I'd rate their metabolism/sensitivity closer to that of chelonians than a mammalian system. Especially when you consider how well chelonians seem to absorb water through their skin...one can only imagine what else they can easily absorb.

So although I do use much stronger stuff than Neem around the house occasionally (Roundup for example) I definitely keep it off of areas where I harvest the weeds for Mr. Specks.

Here's the thing about greenhouse gardening though (as I recall the reason the question initially came up was in relation to growing hibiscus indoors): indoor gardening can be inherently more chemically intensive because you don't have predator insects like wasps and ladybugs and lacewings naturally keeping the pest species in check. My advice to anyone trying to grow hibiscus or something frost sensitive indoors would be to move it outside ASAP when the weather warms up and encourage nature to help do your pest control for you.

Another option is bio control where you would add predator insects in to your indoor setup to keep the levels in check, but this will take some adjustment: my old supervisor said he ran an all organic greenhouse at La Sierra University for several years, but it took him a couple of months to get the scheduling just so so he knew how many weeks he could go w/out reintroducing his bio control species.

Sorry, that's a really long response to a question where I'd basically say: I feel safe using it for my turtle and tortoise, but I would probably wait a week after last application to feel safe about it and I would also wash the leaves off (which I do anyways) before feeding them.

in reading the initial post by emysemys, I'm seeing now that you're worried about a specific pest on your grapeleaves...I'd focus on researching the pest to determine how best to control it: it's probably not active all year long, right? so you wouldn't need to be applying Neem all the time, and you maybe would be able to get by w/only an application or 2 in a month to two month window, right?

here's the UCDAVIS IPM site for this pest...looks like there's a virus that is effective against them...which would be a system that is (probably-please research this for yourself) completely safe for your tortoise feed needs =)
http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/r302301011.html


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