# Soaking and rehydration- benefit and a recipe



## Madkins007

I have been wrong in my understanding of how and whether reptiles absorb liquids in the cloaca. The sources I initially used that taught that absorption does not occur appear to have been an inadequate sampling of the research.

It seems that most reptiles do absorb something (although there is still debate about what all passes inwardly, etc.), and it is a benefit for stressed or dehydrated tortoises.

So, if your tortoise is stressed, loosing weight, showing signs of dehydration (sunken eyes, dry skin, light body weight, etc.) then a forced soak in water, rehydration or electrolytic solution, and/or thinned fruit or veggie purees (baby foods) probably helps quite a bit more than I had thought or taught.

In partial penance, allow me to offer a recipe for home-made oral rehydration solution, developed by the World Health Organization.

- 1 liter of clean water (H2O)
- 1/2 teaspoon of table salt (NaCl, sodium chloride) 
- 1/2 teaspoon salt substiture (KCl, potassium chloride)
- 1/2 teaspoon baking soda (NaHC02, sodium bicarbonate)
- 2 tablespoons table sugar (C12H22O11, sucrose)

Combine and drink (soak in for reptiles). It will taste very salty to someone who is well-hydrated, and delicious to someone who needs the electrolytes (fancy term for the various salts). 

Tweaks and hacks include:
- Using 1 teaspoon of Morton 'Lite Salt', which is a half-and-half mix of NaCL and KCl, in place of the first two ingredients.
- For humans, especially kids, use no-sugar flavorings, like Crystal Light, to make it more palatable.
- For tortoises, I might consider cutting back on the sugar, and/or replacing it with a simpler sugar, like fructose or glucose (corn syrup), but I would definitely leave some sugar in the formula since sugars have such an important role in the system. Another option would be to leave the sugar out and use some pureed fruits or vegetables instead.
- For tortoises that are not very dehydrated, I would not use this at all, or dilute it. 
- While the jury is still out on WHAT can 'flow' though the cloacal membranes, you may want to add some liquid vitamins to the mix as well!

How often and how long? The most common answers seem to be 2 daily soaks for 15-30 minutes each for very dehydrated tortoises, to once a week or so to help prevent dehydration in healthier tortoises.

So- the sicker the tortoise, the saltier the water (using the above recipe as a guide) and the more often it is soaked.


----------



## Yvonne G

Its one of the very first things I learned, many, many years ago (that tortoises will absorb nutrients/liquid through the thin skin around the cloaca), way back when I learned to use alfalfa pellets as a substrate. Almost everything I've ever brought with me from the olden days has proved to be the wrong thing, but I always saw benefits from the soaking, so I've kept espousing it. 

There was an article once that even said a certain water turtle actually drinks through its cloaca. I think it was an Australian turtle. Don't ask me for the title, because I didn't keep it.


----------



## ascott

This is reason I will soak mine from time to time even if they are hydrated....I soak them like a bucket of beans......LOL


----------



## Yvonne G

LOL! but not overnight, I hope!!


----------



## dmmj

aren't beans soaked in a pot for like 12 hours?


----------



## LaTortue

Just tried it on my torts! They seem a happy bunch!


----------



## ascott

LMAO....actually now that you mention it....one time along time ago when my old man Humphry was impacted (when previous host was "taking care" of him) I had been doing 2-3 soaks a day....well he was in my office where I use to work and he was soaking , well I got a call on the radio that I was needed, so I knew Humphry would be fine while I ran off for a few minutes...weeeelllll....two hours later I get back to my office and check in the soaker and there he laid, head fully extended proped against the tub wall, legs fully extended and limply laying about, eyes closed....I had the space heater near his tub so the water was still warm....all he was missing was the bubble bath and candles..LOL....I actually left him while I did some paperwork until he came to on his own....to this day he is my best soaker


----------



## CtTortoiseMom

Do you think that I should cut the recipe in half for my Leo hatchling? I think this is really great. I don't want to use the recipe for daily soak's but I was thinking about adding it to my weekly routine. I also want to soak the big one's once a week using this recipe. I feel like it could help in keeping their immune system on track throughout their "indoor" season.


----------



## Kristina

Great thread Mark, I am glad that you were able to step up on this one  

Yvonne, softshell turtles can "breathe" (absorb oxygen) through the cloaca. Could that be what you are thinking of?


----------



## LeoCraze

My leos would always poop when I soak them in water.


----------



## Ashliewood

I truly believe that soaking my russian twice a day for 30 min saved his life :-/ he is so healthy and active now! I will definately try this recipe


----------



## LeoCraze

I also have a water dish in the enclosure and sometimes the baby leos will soak themselves.


----------



## Madkins007

CtTortoiseMom said:


> Do you think that I should cut the recipe in half for my Leo hatchling? I think this is really great. I don't want to use the recipe for daily soak's but I was thinking about adding it to my weekly routine. I also want to soak the big one's once a week using this recipe. I feel like it could help in keeping their immune system on track throughout their "indoor" season.



There is no reason I can think of that cutting the recipe, etc. would really affect it. Also, other than the sugar, there is no reason you could not make it up in bulk and just store it for the next use, then add some sugar just before use. 

Or... if you mix up the dry ingredients, you can use a heaped teaspoon (1.1333 teaspoons to be picky) of the mix per full 8oz cup of water. The dry mix should last almost forever if you keep it dry. 

To make this easy- measure how many cups your soak tub holds, and mark the 'fill to' line on the side, then note how much mix you need (remember: 3 teaspoons = 1 tablespoon).


----------



## lynnedit

Wow, great suggestion. I like it as a preventive measure. Even when my torts are outside full time, when the weather is hot and dry, even with access to water, I soak them weekly just to be on the safe side. Might not be necessary, but it sure doesn't hurt them.
This might be a good idea to supplement with your formula.


----------



## fbsmith3

My Box turtle always has access to a hiding spot and a large water bowl (to swim). As an added prevention once a month, I used to bathe her is a sea salt, baking soda solution. I didn't use sugar or table salt. I only stopped because someone I know who raises tortoises told me that it should only be used for dehydrated tortoises and using it on a box turtle is "silly" since Box turtles routinely swim in water.


----------



## Madkins007

If your boxie or tortoise routinely self-soaks, great! Many do not however, and dehydration is one of the most common problems in tortoises seen by vets. Gee, we usually raise them in a heated box... kind of like a food dehydrator. Go figure! 

I don't know if it works for Boxies, but you can use the Donohue Formula to determine if your tort is dehydrated- shell length in centimeters, cubed, times 0.191 gives you the expected minimum weight in grams. (Multiply by 0.113 to use inches and pounds, but it is less accurate). My guys feel OK and eat well in a well-humidified habitat and are almost always a little dehydrated according to this formula, until I started soaking them a couple times a week recently. Early results are promising!

Sea salt is basically expensive table salt with a few trace minerals in it. Using the three kinds of sodiums or chlorides accomplishes the same thing. Sugar takes the bitter edge off the taste, as well as adding important nutrients and minerals- although it seems to work well with less than the formula calls for.


----------



## fbsmith3

Thank you for this formula, although she soaks herself several times a day and loves to bury herself in moist moss. It is still good to know how well she is doing.

I was talking to my wife about some turtles will pee when picked up. Cleo has never peed on me or my family, my wife asked about dehydration. With this formula I will know for sure.

Cleo likes to put her head underwater. I hate when she puts her head underwater. Does anyone else have a Box turtle that like to keep there head underwater?


----------



## foxboysracing

my box turtles all drink by putting their heads completely under the water. It's perfectly normal for them, and nothing to worry about. 
Also, I bathe my boxies as often as I can. Sometimes it is daily for a short time, and other times it is just twice a week. My tortoises even love a good bath once a week. This is just in fresh warm water, but they all seem to love it. It also helps if you want to let them run around your house, because you know that they will almost always potty int eh water, so you know you might be 'safe' for a few hours inside. even in their outside enclosure in the summer, my boxies have a small shallow pond for them to sunbathe in. They love it. My terrapins also have a old boat for a summer home. It's really great. They have plenty of room to swim around and bask on the seats on the ends. the bonus also is that when it is grungy you flip it over, scrub it quickly, and re fill it. As simple as can be....


----------



## nikki0601

I think I am going to use this on my Sully as a preventative measure, thanks for the info!!


----------



## DeanS

Missed this one the first time around...great advice Mark!


----------



## Maggie Cummings

I have an Eastern box turtle who has some sort of a neurological disorder that makes it so she can't bite. So basically she can't eat. So part of my routine with her is to soak her in carrot water daily after I have fed her. I weigh her before and after. It goes like this, before I put her in the water she was 387 grams. For a full 15 minutes she has her head totally under the water and her neck fully extended. Then because *I* can't stand it anymore I pluck her out of the water and... she is 418 grams. That is 31 grams unless I can't subtract (and I can't) and then she vomits until she's back to about 390 grams. Why does she drink so much she vomits? That makes no sense to me, but this is something that happens every other day. She is fed Critical Care daily, but because I don't want her to vomit up the Critical Care every day, I only soak her every other day...This box turtle is making me crazy! But she was about to be euthanized so I am not going to complain. She is a great little turtle with a big funny personality. And I am glad we did not kill her...


----------



## laramie

Thank you Madkins007 for sharing that important infor. You should teach a class on tort health


----------



## ascott

Maggie....instead of letting her sink her head for 15the minutes during one soak..are you able to soak her like two or three times a day and let her sink her head only like 5 minutes then pluck her out and see if she can keep it down????? I don't know and you may have already done this ...but that is what I came up with


----------



## fbsmith3

Maggie I find this so fantastic. The extra effort you have done to keep this beauty alive. Maybe you could start a new threat about what you have done to keep her alive.
It seems impossible to keep an animal alive who can not eat. You have proven it is possible and everything you have done that has worked, worked a little or did not work as expect will help others who have this situation in the future. Maybe there are more with similar situations.


----------



## paper_boy

Maggie do you think this could still work?

1 liter water
.5 teaspoon pan salt (pan salt ingredients listed below)
.5 teaspoon baking soda
No table salt because pan salt already has sodium chloride

The only thing i could get from the super market was pan salt.
The ingridients are: 57% sodium chloride, 28%potasium chloride, 12%magnesium sulfate, 2%lysine hydrichloride, 1%silicon dioxide, .0036% potasium iodine


----------



## conservation

Great post Madkins,

I soak my hatchlings one a day for around 5-10 minutes in luke warm water before I offere them food. I do this every morning. I am talking soaking almost 100 little guys and gals a day. 

I sold a Sulcata hatchling to a local bearded dragon breeder a few monhs ago. At the time, I provided her detailed care instructions and she informed me she was an experienced tortoise keeper. My friend went over to her house two days ago and while he was there noticed the sulcata was in the same cage as bearded dragons! My friend, told me the Sulcata was 1/4 the size of the rest of the clutch that I still have. At the time, he counseled her for the deplorable lconditions she was keeping it in.

I contacted the woman the next day and explained my concerns for the health of her tortoise. I told her I would like the tortoise back so I could nurse it back to health. I told her I would provide her a different tortoise at no charge if she showed me a perfectly correct setup.

The woman seems totaly sadden by the tortoise not doing well. She immediately bought the exact setup that I told her to purchase and showed me pictures to prove it.

The weird thing about this situation is she raises the most beautiful and healthy bearded dragons, which in my opinion as babies are much harder to raise then tortoises.

Long story short, I meet her today, she lives hours away from me. I am going to try your recipe for soaking. I am confidence I can rehab any animal. I have been caring for these guys for 20 plus years but I am still hoping for the tortoise to be in good shape. We will see.


----------



## Connie

Even though I use reverse osmosis water for my redfoot I just got(No chlorine in the water). I also use the Reptisafe because it says it contains "electrolyes". It also states it aids in rehydrating among other things.. Has anyone ever used it??


----------



## Madkins007

The recipe offered in this thread ARE electrolytes, which is just a fancy term for various salts. There is also not a lot of evidence that plain tap water is an issue for turtles or tortoises. If the chlorine bothers you, let an open container of water sit for 24 hours and the chlorine will gas out.

Distilled water is actually a little bad for drinking water for reptiles since it is completely devoid of any dissolved minerals. Bottled spring water is a much better choice, and oddly enough, de-chlorinated HARD water is great since it is chock-full of calcium and other minerals!


----------



## Connie

Madkins007 said:


> The recipe offered in this thread ARE electrolytes, which is just a fancy term for various salts. There is also not a lot of evidence that plain tap water is an issue for turtles or tortoises. If the chlorine bothers you, let an open container of water sit for 24 hours and the chlorine will gas out.
> 
> Distilled water is actually a little bad for drinking water for reptiles since it is completely devoid of any dissolved minerals. Bottled spring water is a much better choice, and oddly enough, de-chlorinated HARD water is great since it is chock-full of calcium and other minerals!



That's why I put in the reptisafe in the water .It says it adds essential electrolytes including calcium and is good for tortoises. 
What about adding "aquarium salt" It says it also adds electrolytes(minerals) to the water??( A little of both maybe??) I don't use Reptisafe to remove chlorine, that is one of the uses, but the bottle states it is good for turtles, tortises and frogs and reptiles in general and contains essential electrolytes for them. I know reverse osmosis removes everything, that is why I am adding back. I am in control as to what is in the water. BTW alot of the time bottled water is reverse osmosis water.You gotta read the label...I also read that bottled water has been known to contain junk ,not just minerals in the water( feces) and we drink it!!! It's natural spring water--right???


----------



## Madkins007

Electrolytes do not include calcium, iron, or other minerals naturally occurring in most water, and that are removed by the osmosis. 

You are absolutely free to use what you wish, but I personally would not use a chemical dechlorinator agent like Reptisafe unless it told me exactly what chemicals it used to do the job. As for as the electrolytes- I see no list of what they include or the dosages. This all worries me quite a bit. The formula offered here is a known dose of known chemicals that has a proven world-wide track record with humans. The formula offered is also cheaper than aquarium salt. 

Quite honestly, I see no value in Reptisafe at all, pretty much ever. (I find that much of the stuff in the pet aisle of the pet stores to be questionable.)

You do not need electrolytes in tortoise drinking water (or turtle swimming water)- the salts in the electrolytes are naturally occurring in foods. (You restore your personal electrolyte balance with the salts in your own foods.) This is for soaking water for dehydrated or possibly dehydrated tortoises. 

Also personally, I just use tap water. Cheap, convenient, and no known health issues. I don't even bother letting mine sit and age.

(Bottled water is indeed often just bottled, filtered tap water but that is why I specifically mentioned 'spring water'.)


----------



## Connie

Well that is not what it says heregot it from the online encyclopedia)
Physiological importance
In physiology, the primary ions of electrolytes are sodium (Na+), potassium (K+), calcium (Ca2+), magnesium (Mg2+), chloride (Clâˆ’), hydrogen phosphate (HPO42âˆ’), and hydrogen carbonate (HCO3âˆ’). The electric charge symbols of plus (+) and minus (âˆ’) indicate that the substance is ionic in nature and has an imbalanced distribution of electrons, the result of chemical dissociation.

All known higher lifeforms require a subtle and complex electrolyte balance between the intracellular and extracellular environment. In particular, the maintenance of precise osmotic gradients of electrolytes is important. Such gradients affect and regulate the hydration of the body as well as blood pH, and are critical for nerve and muscle function. Various mechanisms exist in living species that keep the concentrations of different electrolytes under tight control.

Both muscle tissue and neurons are considered electric tissues of the body. Muscles and neurons are activated by electrolyte activity between the extracellular fluid or interstitial fluid, and intracellular fluid. Electrolytes may enter or leave the cell membrane through specialized protein structures embedded in the plasma membrane called ion channels. For example, muscle contraction is dependent upon the presence of calcium (Ca2+), sodium (Na+), and potassium (K+). Without sufficient levels of these key electrolytes, muscle weakness or severe muscle contractions may occur.

Electrolyte balance is maintained by oral, or in emergencies, intravenous (IV) intake of electrolyte-containing substances, and is regulated by hormones, generally with the kidneys flushing out excess levels. In humans, electrolyte homeostasis is regulated by hormones such as antidiuretic hormone, aldosterone and parathyroid hormone. Serious electrolyte disturbances, such as dehydration and overhydration, may lead to cardiac and neurological complications and, unless they are rapidly resolved, will result in a medical emergency.


----------



## ALDABRAMAN

ascott said:


> This is reason I will soak mine from time to time even if they are hydrated....I soak them like a bucket of beans......LOL


----------



## Connie

Madkins007 said:


> Electrolytes do not include calcium, iron, or other minerals naturally occurring in most water, and that are removed by the osmosis.
> 
> You are absolutely free to use what you wish, but I personally would not use a chemical dechlorinator agent like Reptisafe unless it told me exactly what chemicals it used to do the job. As for as the electrolytes- I see no list of what they include or the dosages. This all worries me quite a bit. The formula offered here is a known dose of known chemicals that has a proven world-wide track record with humans. The formula offered is also cheaper than aquarium salt.
> 
> Quite honestly, I see no value in Reptisafe at all, pretty much ever. (I find that much of the stuff in the pet aisle of the pet stores to be questionable.)
> 
> You do not need electrolytes in tortoise drinking water (or turtle swimming water)- the salts in the electrolytes are naturally occurring in foods. (You restore your personal electrolyte balance with the salts in your own foods.) This is for soaking water for dehydrated or possibly dehydrated tortoises.
> 
> Also personally, I just use tap water. Cheap, convenient, and no known health issues. I don't even bother letting mine sit and age.
> 
> (Bottled water is indeed often just bottled, filtered tap water but that is why I specifically mentioned 'spring water'.)



Excuse me, I read Natural Spring Water(Bottled) contains the Junk (traces of feces). There are basically two types of "Bottled" water --reverse osmosis and Natural Spring water. I don't think there ARE any other kinds of "bottled water" . Is there??? Not that I know of...


----------



## Madkins007

I am not sure how this has become such a long discussion. All I was trying to say is that I don't use Reptisafe or similar products, or do anything special with my water. 

Calcium salts (Na2+) are subtly different than plain calcium (Na) and I cannot find which one is in Reptisafe. Even if it includes all of the necessary electrolytes and minerals an animal needs, I would not bother using Reptisafe as my healthy animals get what they need from their diet, and if I needed an electrolytic formula for theraputic soaks, I can find or make cheaper options.

Bottled water can also be distilled, which makes it pure H2O- no flavors, no dissolved minerals, nothing else. Some bottled waters (spring or filtered) have been tested to be higher in contaminants that tap water is allowed to be, but that does not automatically mean that they are a health risk. 

(Besides, to be perfectly honest, traces of feces in my tortoise's soak water is not an issue to me since they will poop in it themselves within minutes and they eat poop every chance they get.)

Again, you are welcome to use whatever methods and products work for you, as we all are.


----------



## Connie

I only brought up the the word "calcium" because you stated wasn't an electrolyte. Yes it is.. I just said Reptisafe states they add essential electrolyes including Calcium.. 
I am quite confident Zoo Med did their homework as to which Calcium and what amount is required for reptiles. If one in unsure they can always call and find out the exact ingredients and get the amounts of each. I do not need to because I have confidence in ZooMed and their products. The amounts I am sure are based what is needed for reptiles, not humans because our bodies have much different needs than a reptile and I personally wouldn't use a study and ingredients base on humans for Reptiles.... We have a completely different make up and are warm blooded as apposed to cold blooded. 
I love a juicy steak smothered in onions and a glass of wine but is it good for a tortoise or reptile?? How about a a piece of cake for dessert?? Our make up is different and I am not knowledgeable as to what is the right amount of electrolyes or whatever for a reptile. I personally leave it to the companies who spend thousands if not millions on what is best for the reptile. It is their livlihood, their reputation.. Electrolyes can be DANGEROUS and can cause the heart to stop if not in the right proportions .My dog died because she was given too much potassium by a stupid vet--her heart stopped. Elemental potassiium instead of the glucognate potassium which is 8 times stronger. The labeling also on potassium can be very deceiving. It can state glucognate , but in the back in small print it can say elemental--but that is another story.....
Yes there is distilled bottle water (forgot about that) but is the same as reverse osmosis in the end ... 
I was not talking about tortoises when I said I read that traces of feces are in Natural Spring water . I was referring to the fact that WE, humans are drinking it..ICK!! I never said it was a health risk though...


----------



## Madkins007

Distilled water is generally created by evaporation/condensation since reverse osmosis does not remove enough to pass distillation standards. 

Electrolytes can be dangerous, as can an overdose of anything else, but the basic formula for how blood is formed is close enough between animals that the relative proportions are pretty well understood. People have even been using Gatoraid to rehydrate reptiles for years. 

I find it interesting that you trust ZooMed, a company that makes a lot of products of questionable value, but distrust both your vet and the company that makes the meds he used. Many big name pet vitamin products were analysed a few years ago, and almost all were found to be lying about the ingredients and ratios. There is comparatively little regulation or oversight on the pet industry. 

I use some ZooMed products but I don't trust them any more than I trust the bottled water industry- who not only lies about the source of their water often and what is in it, but does it in a way that is destroying the environment (and does it spending a heck of a lot more in research than ZooMed ever could.)


----------

