# New "Burrow" Ideas



## Tom (Dec 7, 2010)

I've always liked the idea of burrowing animals being able to burrow in captivity, but there are so many possible "pitfalls" (haha) that we all tend to avoid it. The temperature stability down there to avoid the temperature extremes topside is undeniable. I have two ideas that I'm finishing up and want to run them by y'all before I start diggin'. This is mainly for sulcatas, but also my tegus and Blackthroat monitors as well. It really applies to any fossorial species of reptile, the dimensions just change with the species. These ideas are primarily fostered by RV and her burrow, Bert Langerwerf and his style of "naturalistic" outdoor enclosures, and both Tyler and Neal for their innovative style of doing this sort of thing.

Idea #1. Start a burrow in the right spot in the spring time and let the sulcatas have at it. When it seems like its a good depth and things are right, I want to then put something like "The Mother of all Tortoise Boxes", but with NO floor, over the top of it. So the burrow entrance will be covered by a big 4x8' box with a tortoise door in it. I can build up the dirt all around the outside of the box for more insulation and heat the air inside the box when temps start to get too low in the fall. I don't know how much influence the warm air in the box will have on the air down in the burrow, but I can guarantee it will be warmer down there than it would be with out the box over it. Plus they can come up into the box to get warm, if they wanted to. As they pull up more and more dirt, I can rake it out of the box and spread it around outside some more. This system will keep the rain and freezing temps out and the heat in. The box would just rest right on the ground and they'd push through the vinyl flaps to get inside the box and then walk over to the burrow entrance at the far side, away from the door. I'd build the dirt up all around the outside of the box so that no cold air could sneak in from and gaps between the box and the ground. What do you think? Tell me all the reasons why it won't work and all the problems I'll encounter.

Idea #2. Build a 4 sided box with a lid and sink it in the ground like my "tortoise bunker" for Daisy. Build a covered entry tunnel too, just like Daisy's. Then build a big enough raised "portal" for me to fit through into to lid. Build another, smaller insulated lid to cover the raised portal. Then bury the whole box right up to the portal lid. So the only thing you would see above ground is a 2x2' lid, right at ground level and the little cover over the entrance tunnel. I figure I could get a good foot of dirt on top of the buried box for insulation. Then I could hang an appropriate sized CHE down there from the ceiling, just to keep things a little warmer, if needed in the winter. I think the advantages of this idea over idea #1 is that I don't have to worry about a "natural" burrow collapsing OR flooding in the rain. What do you think of this one? I could also use cinderblock, instead of wood for the walls on this one. Tell me where you see flaws here.

I'm very open to suggestions for improvements or refinements.


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## onarock (Dec 7, 2010)

Why havnt they begun digging their own burrow over the years?


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## Tom (Dec 7, 2010)

onarock said:


> Why havnt they begun digging their own burrow over the years?



Most of them don't dig if you give them shelter, like my heated boxes, for example. Some never try, others try once in a while. One of mine will start to dig a little every six months or so. Its pretty random. Its easy to see and it takes them a long time to get anywhere. I just move them out of the way, drag the dirt back in the hole with my foot, and put a big rock or paving stone in that spot for a while. They just don't try again after that.


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## onarock (Dec 7, 2010)

Tom said:


> onarock said:
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> > Why havnt they begun digging their own burrow over the years?
> ...



Why did RV dig a burrow? Doesnt she have shelter? Do you think that if you just put the mother of all boxes over a spot that they started diggin in that they would continue? If you started a burrow, what makes you think they would continue it. If you dug it, would they use it? It seems to me that I would somehow try to get them to do it naturally. I like the idea of a heated shelter over the hole after its dug. Idea #2 just sounds like a box in the ground. It has to be deep enough so that the temp doesnt fluxuate too much, I think its why burrows turn and are not straight, to trap heat or preserve the cold.


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## TylerStewart (Dec 7, 2010)

The problem I have with naturalistic burrows is the tortoises "stacking up" in them. With multiple tortoises, it'd be a daily problem where one tortoise in the bottom of the burrow is stuck behind one or two or five more between it and the surface. With only one or two tortoises, this isn't really an issue. 

As far as your idea #1, I don't like it mostly because if you're going to build and heat a hide, what's the point of having them burrow below that? The burrow is appealing to me because I wouldn't have to build a box and heat the box. 

Idea #2 is pretty much what I'm doing at the new place. I'm doing the walls with concrete block, with a concrete slab on bottom and concrete lid on top (guess what industry I work in?). It will be bulletproof and long term. Entry can be done with a manhole cover on top (which you can buy rings for and stack them, so you can have the lid 1 or 3 feet down but the manhole on the surface. I am leaning more towards boxes that are 4 to 5' high on the inside, with the lid about 1 foot below the surface (so the entire hole will be something like 6' deep). This way you could get in a few times a year and clean them out a bit. They will have a sloped ramp going down, and a door into the box much like my current on ground boxes do (so you could pretty easily crawl right in the front door). I'll get plenty of pics, it won't be for a few more months.... They're going to be MASSIVE, and there will be multiple of them. 

I was about to do another of my "sprinkler box" hides probably on Saturday. I'll get some pics of the process.


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## Tom (Dec 7, 2010)

TylerStewart said:


> I was about to do another of my "sprinkler box" hides probably on Saturday. I'll get some pics of the process.



Please do.

Are you going to put something on the floor down there in your bunkers?




onarock said:


> Tom said:
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> > onarock said:
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Good lord man! So many questions...

RV dug because they let her and no she didn't really have a shelter. She used to sleep on the back patio and they'd put a light over her on really cold nights.

Yes, I think they would continue after I put the box over it, but I could be wrong...

I'm pretty sure they would continue it, and yes I think they would use it if I dug it.

My other tortoise bunker is only one foot in the ground and the whole top is exposed to all the elements. When it was over 100 everyday for two weeks in the summer that bunker never got over 81. 4-5 feet down with a foot of dirt on top will be plenty deep to prevent temp fluctuations. I am curious about what a 100 watt CHE will do to the air temps down there. I'm guessing, not much.


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## onarock (Dec 7, 2010)

Sorry man its what I do when I'm trying to figure something out. I figured, maybe, learn from what has been done. I think your ideas are o.k. Maybe too much human intervention. I would try and encourage a natural burrow, I think that if we figured out what makes them want to burrow and provide it, they might do it naturally. Would they all share a burrow? Like a super burrow. Or would they get territortal about their burrows. Sorry too many questions. I think that if they would use one that you made that would be cool. My only thing about that is your not a tortoise and you may give them something thats lacking certain aspects like fecal matter and urates LOL. Joking, but you get my point.


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## TylerStewart (Dec 7, 2010)

Tom said:


> Are you going to put something on the floor down there in your bunkers?



Yeah, there will be a 4" concrete slab in them. I don't want them digging down from there, and concrete would be easy to scrape clean.


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## Neal (Dec 7, 2010)

So I had a response and went to edit something and deleted it and I don't want to write it all out again.

Basically - I like #2 better. 1 is cool cause I think a big sulcata burrow would be cool, but too many things to worry about, flooding, collapsing, trapped, etc...

I would use concrete blocks rather than wood, it would be stronger and you wouldn't ever have to replace it. You would have to secure them pretty good so the tortoises don't try to dig under them. The blocks could fall on them and that would be a sad day for Tom.


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## gummybearpoop (Dec 7, 2010)

Tom, 2 sounds cool. Always tinkering with ideas....I like that. 
If the blocks fell on the tortoises....they should be ok. Sulcatas are tough and it happens to my friends' here and there.



"The problem I have with naturalistic burrows is the tortoises "stacking up" in them. With multiple tortoises, it'd be a daily problem where one tortoise in the bottom of the burrow is stuck behind one or two or five more between it and the surface. With only one or two tortoises, this isn't really an issue. "

Tyler, how many adult sulcatas are you housing in how much space? Wonder if it isn't enough yard space. I have seen over 60 adult sulcatas in a few pens and most of the tortoises made their own burrows or a huge burrow that would branch off into several more.


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## TylerStewart (Dec 8, 2010)

gummybearpoop said:


> Tyler, how many adult sulcatas are you housing in how much space? Wonder if it isn't enough yard space. I have seen over 60 adult sulcatas in a few pens and most of the tortoises made their own burrows or a huge burrow that would branch off into several more.



Well, mine don't have underground burrows right now, but I have heard stories of them "stacking up" like that, and I would assume that if multiple were placed into a new area all at once (regardless of the size of the area), one or two burrows would develop initially that they would all use. I guess over time, there would probably be more available as they spread out, but a big part of my motivation for the bunkers is also so that I have easy access to any of them that I need. I would hate to be trying to pull a certain one or two, particularly in the winter, and not being able to get to them. The bunkers would also give me the option of heating them in the future if I wanted to (making them more active in the winter days), where a natural burrow would be very difficult to heat. 

All the block walls I am doing and have done were grouted solid, so they can't "shake loose" or fall, unless the whole wall falls at once, which is pretty much impossible because the corners are staggered, locking them together. I'm not a big believer in stacking blocks loose (not grouted). I'm sure I'd have constant escapes if I tried that with anything big.


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## Yvonne G (Dec 8, 2010)

I used to have a natural burrow for my group of 1.3 desert tortoises. And yes, stacking up did occur. The tortoises down in the burrow that wanted out just had to wait until the doorway blocker moved. It was no big deal. He would move eventually and everyone would get out.


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## Tom (Dec 8, 2010)

Its too cold at night and during the winter where I am for a "natural" burrow to work year round. Outside of the Phoenix area or South FL I don't think its warm enough to just leave them outside with nothing. I could be wrong...






onarock said:


> Sorry man its what I do when I'm trying to figure something out. I figured, maybe, learn from what has been done. I think your ideas are o.k. Maybe too much human intervention. I would try and encourage a natural burrow, I think that if we figured out what makes them want to burrow and provide it, they might do it naturally. Would they all share a burrow? Like a super burrow. Or would they get territortal about their burrows. Sorry too many questions. I think that if they would use one that you made that would be cool. My only thing about that is your not a tortoise and you may give them something thats lacking certain aspects like fecal matter and urates LOL. Joking, but you get my point.


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## Balboa (Dec 8, 2010)

Have to admit I haven't thought much about this topic before, so it took me a bit of thinking to come up with anything possibly constructive to say.

I like the idea of giving them burrows, as they'd have that in nature, but agree that yes, although more natural burrows would be nice, for practicality and safety, constructed seem a better option.

A buried bunker makes for a very efficient structure, the benefits of building homes either fully or partially underground is highly documented.

Heating would seem to me to be a problem. If ground temps do in fact get too cold in winter, that's a lot of mass to try and heat, but it can be done (I seem to recall as a kid that a candle could heat an igloo, but maybe that's one of those silly myths  ).

-The structure could easily be insulated, which would likely help for heating.

-A sump pump could easily be installed in case of flooding as a safety measure. I installed a few in electrical vaults over the years. It seems like water ALWAYS finds its way in to any underground structure eventually.

-This gives me another idea. Run out a water line too. For cleaning time hook up the hose, and spray it down, running the sump pump. Easy cleanin'.

-What about multiple or extra wide access tunnels to deal with stack-up issues?


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## onarock (Dec 8, 2010)

Tom said:


> Its too cold at night and during the winter where I am for a "natural" burrow to work year round. Outside of the Phoenix area or South FL I don't think its warm enough to just leave them outside with nothing. I could be wrong...
> 
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> ...



I just checked night time low in your area compared to phoenix. Your actually a couple degrees warmer. Phoenix gets cold. I dont think Phoenix is quite the tortoise meca you think it is. Its dry, yeah, but thats it. I was checking it out 2 weeks ago and it was in the upper 30s there. Anyway we can save that for another thread. I like the heated house idea. Tyler is talking about putting a Man Hole/Hand Hole in the ground, thats what I do for a living.


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## Balboa (Dec 8, 2010)

(SNIP)



onarock said:


> Tyler is talking about putting a Man Hole/Hand Hole in the ground, thats what I do for a living.



I'm a Sparky. Tyler "works with concrete", Onarock sets manholes, what, is everybody here but Tom a construction worker?
LOL


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## coreyc (Dec 8, 2010)

Balboa said:


> (SNIP)
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I'm a apprentice carpenter poor Tom


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## onarock (Dec 8, 2010)

coreyc said:


> Balboa said:
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> > (SNIP)
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I gues.. Im a commercial electrician but we tend to do alot of underground utility work (duct banks, Handholes)


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## Balboa (Dec 8, 2010)

onarock said:


> coreyc said:
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> > Balboa said:
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Well hello fellow sparky! My sympathies. I did duct bank as well for too many years. Its probably a different story in other parts of the country, but up here we wear hip waders at times in the ditches and vaults. If I never stand in another muddy ditch and mud-up another vault I'll be a happy man.


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## Tom (Dec 8, 2010)

Balboa said:


> -What about multiple or extra wide access tunnels to deal with stack-up issues?



This is what I thought too. I could have an entrance tunnel at either end. 



This is the first time anyone has ever felt sorry for me due to my non-construction type job. You guys are making me laugh.

I'm self taught on all of this stuff and I still have a lot to learn...


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## TylerStewart (Dec 8, 2010)

With the bunker, if you built it in a mostly square shape, for example, and put the door in the center of one of the walls, you won't really have a "stacking" problem. My above ground boxes have the doors in the center of one longer wall, and they don't get stuck in there. The torts almost always go in and put their faces into a corner. I just don't think you'd need 2 access points. Further argument against two entry points is that it's that much more space that cold (or hot) air can get in, and also opens up a huge potential for a breeze to blow _through_ (which doesn't happen with one door). 

I worked as a laborer in concrete starting at 16 (around school), and worked every Las Vegas summer in the sun since, through carpenter ranks, to foreman ranks then a few years ago got pulled into the office as an estimator. I'm supposed to be doing "take-offs" right now. Don't tell nobody I'm on TFO. But I do have a lot of experience in commercial concrete (we don't do houses at all, just big buildings, schools, hospitals and warehouses). It's good to know. I'm currently refining my masonry block laying skills. 1,200 linear feet of 8' wall to go. Help, anyone?


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## Tom (Dec 8, 2010)

TylerStewart said:


> With the bunker, if you built it in a mostly square shape, for example, and put the door in the center of one of the walls, you won't really have a "stacking" problem. My above ground boxes have the doors in the center of one longer wall, and they don't get stuck in there. The torts almost always go in and put their faces into a corner. I just don't think you'd need 2 access points. Further argument against two entry points is that it's that much more space that cold (or hot) air can get in, and also opens up a huge potential for a breeze to blow _through_ (which doesn't happen with one door).



Good points, Tyler. Thanks.


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## Turtulas-Len (Dec 8, 2010)

I like the idea of a man made burrow, a few years ago I built a cave for my tortoises so they could get out of the heat,(mountain torts) the open end was facing to the north so no direct sun would get in to heat the inside, the whole front was open, and 3/4 of it was above ground.I used Box Rib metal, 24 gauge, my only concern was one of the tortoise's walking off the top front and getting hurt (that never happened) it was covered with dirt and chicken wire in layers to keep the dirt from washing away and being removed by the tortoise's walking on it. that actually worked pretty good, got some plants to grow on it.What I liked about the metal was how easy it was to work with, cuts easy, and just screws together, it is strong,and will last for many years -If you weld it can be welded together- Remember I'm from the East Coast and brick and block are expensive. Len


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## Redfoot NERD (Dec 8, 2010)

Sorry Tom.. I'm just a "S. O. F." - mine don't burrow.. they climb -












And being a retired 'door-to-door' salesman.. I don't know anything and have soft hands - not any good on this one.. but you asked!

NERD


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## Criskers (Feb 8, 2011)

TylerStewart said:


> Idea #2 is pretty much what I'm doing at the new place. I'm doing the walls with concrete block, with a concrete slab on bottom and concrete lid on top (guess what industry I work in?). It will be bulletproof and long term. Entry can be done with a manhole cover on top (which you can buy rings for and stack them, so you can have the lid 1 or 3 feet down but the manhole on the surface. I am leaning more towards boxes that are 4 to 5' high on the inside, with the lid about 1 foot below the surface (so the entire hole will be something like 6' deep). This way you could get in a few times a year and clean them out a bit. They will have a sloped ramp going down, and a door into the box much like my current on ground boxes do (so you could pretty easily crawl right in the front door). I'll get plenty of pics, it won't be for a few more months.... They're going to be MASSIVE, and there will be multiple of them.
> 
> I was about to do another of my "sprinkler box" hides probably on Saturday. I'll get some pics of the process.



Wow! Interesting! I'm curious do you think you will have to heat these underground bunkers or will the torts do ok at the approx 58-60 degree ground temps during winter like in a regular burrow? 

How will you plan on doing the ramp will they be concrete also? 

Are these bunkers going to be into the side of a hill or on flat ground?

How big will each pen be and what will the walls be made of? I have to do something for our big guy soon as well.

By the way thanks for posting the cactus photos


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## Criskers (Feb 28, 2011)

Criskers said:


> TylerStewart said:
> 
> 
> > Idea #2 is pretty much what I'm doing at the new place. I'm doing the walls with concrete block, with a concrete slab on bottom and concrete lid on top (guess what industry I work in?). It will be bulletproof and long term. Entry can be done with a manhole cover on top (which you can buy rings for and stack them, so you can have the lid 1 or 3 feet down but the manhole on the surface. I am leaning more towards boxes that are 4 to 5' high on the inside, with the lid about 1 foot below the surface (so the entire hole will be something like 6' deep). This way you could get in a few times a year and clean them out a bit. They will have a sloped ramp going down, and a door into the box much like my current on ground boxes do (so you could pretty easily crawl right in the front door). I'll get plenty of pics, it won't be for a few more months.... They're going to be MASSIVE, and there will be multiple of them.
> ...



Hello Tyler? Are you there?


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## shellysmom (Mar 3, 2011)

Hi Tom, 

I think it's a fantastic idea to offer burrowing animals a chance to actually use a real burrow, even if you have to start it yourself. My Shelly is about 8 years old, and never had a burrow until I started one for him as soon as I got him. I just dug down a couple of feet, and he took it the rest of the way within a few days, about 6 more feet. He LOVES the darn thing; I'm so glad I did it. I don't know how many torts you have housed in the same place, but if it's several, your idea of doing more than one burrow, or having more than one entrance, would probably work out really well. I bet even though your guys don't really dig much, every single one of them will love and use a burrow, and maybe even expand on them once they realize how fun it is to dig!!

I think a box over the burrow for rain and cold would work quite well. That's kind of what I've been doing, although I'm in Florida, so the weatherproofing wasn't as involved.


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