# Cleaning tips from a microbiologist



## Talka (Oct 11, 2012)

Asked my professor, based on what microbes typically grow on tortoises, what would be the best way to clean Sheldon's dishes. 
*A 1:1:1 mix of water, vinegar, and rubbing alcohol* will kill any bacteria, apparently. No need for bleach or soap.
Soak dirty dishes in the above mixture at high temp for 15 minutes.

I was interested in this because antibacterial soaps sometimes contain carcinogens, and while they're fine in small doses and won't harm us, I'm paranoid about my tort. Also, vinegar and alcohol are cheap!


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## Jacqui (Oct 11, 2012)

I always wonder (and never can recall the correct answer) is there a difference between which one of the vinegars you use? Does it work, if you don't have the high temps? Another thing I wonder about, since I also take all the tubs outside to wash them out in the yard and the water is only cold out there.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Oct 11, 2012)

Good to know, since I've always used bleach. Not anymore!


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## Talka (Oct 11, 2012)

In the vinegar, what matters is that it's acetic acid (which all vinegar contains), so plain cheap vinegar works. What you're looking for is to lower the pH to kill bacteria. Bleach works in the opposite way, to kill bacteria with high pH.
The alcohol helps penetrate tougher cell walls and denature the proteins inside, basically killing bacteria from the inside out.

Higher temperatures aid alcohol in penetrating cells more quickly, but with a 15 minute soaking the temp isn't critical. If you're doing a quicker cleaning, higher temperature would be advantageous.

Bleach is fine to clean with, it's just more damaging to the environment when you dump it, it's harsher on the skin, and it's not good to breathe in.


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## wellington (Oct 11, 2012)

WOW, very interesting and great info to have. Thank you so much for thinking to ask and for sharing with all us, kuddos


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## Redstrike (Oct 11, 2012)

Thanks for sharing, great to know!


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## mainey34 (Oct 11, 2012)

Thank you for the tip.


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## greyshirt (Oct 11, 2012)

Talka said:


> Higher temperatures aid alcohol in penetrating cells more quickly, but with a 15 minute soaking the temp isn't critical. If you're doing a quicker cleaning, higher temperature would be advantageous.
> 
> Thanks for the info,sounds great. I like like to be as organic a possible, and this formula is great, but can you clarify higher temperature?


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## Jacqui (Oct 12, 2012)

Only major downside I can see is this combination would end up being very costly.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Oct 12, 2012)

I was about to ask...can you mix up this solution and just have it in a jug or bottle always on standby? Or would that render the cleaning properties inert?


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## MichiLove (Oct 12, 2012)

Thanks for sharing!!


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## jtrux (Oct 12, 2012)

From my limited knowlegde of chemistry I think you would be safe mixing it. Since the alcohol is not considered a base it wouldn't nuetralize the vinegar, just shake it up before each use.


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## EricIvins (Oct 12, 2012)

Why not just use Novalsan, which is both a Bactricide and Virucide? 2 Tablespoons in a gallon of water and you are set for weeks......


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## ALDABRAMAN (Oct 12, 2012)

Talka said:


> *1:1:1 mix of water, vinegar, and rubbing alcohol*



Great information!


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## Talka (Oct 12, 2012)

The solution can sit around for weeks no problem. Wal Mart has jugs of alcohol and vinegar for under $2 each. Not sure about Europe. They are fine to mix, don't interact with each other, and can go in a spray bottle too. I guess for my one tortoise it's cheap, but if I had 10 torts I might want to use bleach, since 2 gallons of it often go for $2 here and you end up diluting it to use it anyway.

From what I've found, Nolvasan seems to kill a broad range of bacteria as well as some fungi (though testing on fungi has not been extensive). We had a discussion in class about antibacterials like Nolvasan and others. It's an antiseptic, so it can kill bacteria, but that is not its only function. Antiseptics also prevent growth of existing bacteria. It could possibly be less effective than a straight-up disinfectant, especially since it is designed to work on living tissue. But I don't think anyone has tested it yet on inanimate objects like tortoise plates.

A temperature hot enough to kill any microbe on your tort's enclosure is 45 C. However, warm water will still help the alcohol react faster.


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## llnguyen (Nov 27, 2012)

Thanks for the tips Talka!

After spraying and cleaning with the solution you suggested, is it ok to leave it or it's necessary to rinse off with water?

Thanks!


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## lynnedit (Nov 27, 2012)

As far as rinsing, the rubbing alcohol would likely evaporate. Vinegar is harmless, but won't hurt to rinse it off to get rid of the odor.

The white vinegar comes in gallon containers and is the least expensive.


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## Yellow Turtle (Nov 27, 2012)

Talka said:


> In the vinegar, what matters is that it's acetic acid (which all vinegar contains), so plain cheap vinegar works. What you're looking for is to lower the pH to kill bacteria. Bleach works in the opposite way, to kill bacteria with high pH.
> The alcohol helps penetrate tougher cell walls and denature the proteins inside, basically killing bacteria from the inside out.
> 
> Higher temperatures aid alcohol in penetrating cells more quickly, but with a 15 minute soaking the temp isn't critical. If you're doing a quicker cleaning, higher temperature would be advantageous.
> ...



These are correct information. What matters most to kill germs are concentration, temperature and contact time, higher is better for each item.

Alcohol itself is good enough to sanitize the dish. Adding vinegar might not be necessary, because vinegar only effective if it's got "enough" contact time with the bacteria. Vinegar as mentioned above, only lowering pH thus creating environment which is not suitable for some bacteria and especially not effective against salmonella. If you only rub the dish then use alcohol is enough and I don't like the left over odor from vinegar. I think it might affect my torts' appetite 

When I get time to soak my dish, I still get more preference toward bleach than alcohol. I believe it is more effective and cheaper solution to kill bacteria. Sodium hypo is cheapest bleach and widely used in house. It is basically pretty safe to use and has been used as water treatment and swimming pool disinfectant for ages. It can be a much stronger disinfectant than alcohol if used in higher concentration. Hydrogen peroxide is also bleach type solution, very effective disinfectant and environmental friendly, but it is more expensive than hypo.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Nov 28, 2012)

I'm curious to know what you may say about plain clear ammonia. I use it a great deal, always outside for ventilation.

We used it extensively at one work place on plastic amphibian-enclosures as it would volatilize away, leaving no residue in the plastic. The reason behind its use was so that a novel complex cleaner would not seep into the plastic, then out again onto the frog, or salamander.

Items were first washed to remove gross debris, then thoroughly sprayed with ammonia, the ammonia was allowed to dry on the surface, then rinse again, let air dry.

We experimented with vinegar and hydrogen peroxide in combination as well, but stayed with the ammonia for simplicity of use.

Will


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## greyshirt (Nov 28, 2012)

Yellow Turtle said:


> Talka said:
> 
> 
> > In the vinegar, what matters is that it's acetic acid (which all vinegar contains), so plain cheap vinegar works. What you're looking for is to lower the pH to kill bacteria. Bleach works in the opposite way, to kill bacteria with high pH.
> ...




Bleach (Chlorine) is damaging to the environment as well as deadly to all living things, depending on quantity. So is ammonia. That's why chlorine is used in drinking water and swimming pools, it kills everything in the water. But that doesn't mean it's good for you. If you drink the alcohol it can kill you also, but it is also organic and dissipates rapidly. You should wear a respirator when working with ammonia and chlorine. All of them kill everything, but the water, alcohol, vinegar solution is not nearly as dangerous as the others. And is completely biologically friendly. Just my two cents.


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## Yellow Turtle (Nov 28, 2012)

Chlorine as a gas is dangerous to both environment and all the living. Bleach is formed from chlorine gas and caustic soda by some process usually sold as 12% sodium hypo content in the solution. When sold to household as bleach, it is usually around 5% content.

Water treatment and swimming pool usage is controlled usage of sodium hypo to keep a range of usually 0.1 - 0.5 ppm residual free chlorine inside the water to kill the germs in water. It is not for selective killing thus very effective for both application. The residual free chlorine inside irritates your skin and makes your eyes reddish if you not using goggles, so does that stop you from swimming and drinking from the tap water? Of course in not controlled use, the more ppm than that then the volatile chlorine becomes corrosive to environment and above 1 ppm, it is also more irritant to your skin and soft tissue like eyes. That's why it is a controlled usage.

I talk with microbiologist before and I will keep using ammonia as spray, again under consideration of simplicity, effectiveness and controlled, but I don't have much experience using ammonia as disinfectant compares to bleach and alcohol, as I don't like the odor a lot. I can't stand vinegar odor, and ammonia is worse to me.

So between alcohol and bleach? I personally will use bleach wisely as I know the knowledge and it is much cheaper than others.


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## kathyth (Nov 28, 2012)

Thank you very much for this info!
Who knew?


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## greyshirt (Nov 28, 2012)

Yellow Turtle said:


> Chlorine as a gas is dangerous to both environment and all the living. Bleach is formed from chlorine gas and caustic soda by some process usually sold as 12% sodium hypo content in the solution. When sold to household as bleach, it is usually around 5% content.
> 
> Water treatment and swimming pool usage is controlled usage of sodium hypo to keep a range of usually 0.1 - 0.5 ppm residual free chlorine inside the water to kill the germs in water. It is not for selective killing thus very effective for both application. The residual free chlorine inside irritates your skin and makes your eyes reddish if you not using goggles, so does that stop you from swimming and drinking from the tap water? Of course in not controlled use, the more ppm than that then the volatile chlorine becomes corrosive to environment and above 1 ppm, it is also more irritant to your skin and soft tissue like eyes. That's why it is a controlled usage.
> 
> ...




Yellow Turtle I am not saying that it is wrong to use ammonia or bleach as a disinfectant, and I certainly don't want to argue. I'm just trying to inform. If someone wants to kill germs and be ecologically sound, then the water, alcohol, and vinegar are what they should use. By the way I don't drink tap water, I brush my teeth with baking soda because I don't want any fluoride. I'm extreme in some of my beliefs(I'm an old hippie). I'm not saying you or anyone else has to change the way you do things, because I never want to try to force my beliefs on any one. I just wanted people to know that this has no adverse effects on the environment and that's the difference. That being said if I could only get bleach I would use it, because it would be better than letting my tort get sick. (I use bleach in my laundry). I hope I haven't offended you and if I did I'm very sorry. I guess writing doesn't convey feelings very well, and I know sometimes my words can seem harsh, please believe me that is not my intent.


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## Yellow Turtle (Nov 28, 2012)

Bill, please not to feel offended by my words. I would like to state my opinion because it is still in my field of work for now. That's why I don't direct quote your statement, although in some parts it looks conflicting to your way. For me, it's just as simple as giving others idea or option to do thing in more simpler way. As for me, being an Indonesian, I'm no good in expressing my words in the most convenient ways and I'm just familiar with the technical statement.

Last thing, not even the slightest harsh word at all in your statement, so please cheer up and have a pleasant sleep


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## lynnedit (Nov 29, 2012)

I also find that giving the dish a good scrub with soap and hot water and allowing it to bake dry in the sun (or in winter, under the basking light or near a heat vent) seems to work well.
But the alcohol/vinegar or alcohol suggestion would work too.

Interestingly, rubbing alcohol and acetic acid are the components in one prescription, Vosol, for outer ear infections. So there you are.


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## greyshirt (Nov 29, 2012)

lynnedit said:


> I also find that giving the dish a good scrub with soap and hot water and allowing it to bake dry in the sun (or in winter, under the basking light or near a heat vent) seems to work well.
> But the alcohol/vinegar or alcohol suggestion would work too.
> 
> Interestingly, rubbing alcohol and acetic acid are the components in one prescription, Vosol, for outer ear infections. So there you are.



I have done that many times as well. The sun not only kills a lot of germs but also bleaches the dish so it looks clean.
_____________________________________________________________

Yellow turtle I really appreciate your reply. Looks like we are both trying to do the same thing. Don't worry, Texican (the way people who grew up ing the rural Texas speak)as I like to say, is my only language and I have an unbelievable hard time making my point understood, even face to face. My wife is from upstate New York and after 35 years of marriage sometimes she still doesn't understand what I am saying. So no problems here.


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## RosieRedfoot (Nov 29, 2012)

My virology professor said her disinfectant of choice was bleach followed by air drying. I personally loathe the smell of vinegar so I use dilute bleach in my kitchen, bathroom, and critter cages (followed by a rinsing).


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## Dr. Chompy (Jan 22, 2013)

Thanks for posting, I was just thinking of cleaning Dr Chompy's habitat today.. he's getting bigger and its really starting to smell like a banyard out there, which is unfortunate, since its my front porch...I usually just use water pressure to clean but I will try this on the whole porch area..


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## Mich (Jan 23, 2013)

Nolvasan is great! I was using a bleach/water mix and it would eat away at my spray bottles. I first started using Nolvasan for my iguana, its safe enough that I could spray his enclosure down with it and not have to wait until it dried before he went back in, it doesn't have the harsh terrible smell or that horrible toxic downfalls like bleach. But it is expensive and hard to get where I am (Ontario, Canada). The water/vinger/alcohol solution is MUCH cheaper (and easy on the spray bottles hehe). Here Nolvasan is actually sold as "Chlorhexidine". I called every vet I cound find a # for to ask if they carried Nolvasan and not a single one knew what I was talking about .. then my main vet looked up the active ingredient and immediatly knew what I meant when Chlorhexidine popped up


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## MasterOogway (Jan 23, 2013)

We always used Nolvasan in the Vet. clinic too. Thanks for bringing this old post up.


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## Eloise's mommy (Jan 24, 2013)

Since I purchase a water conditioner to keep Chlorine out of my Little Eloise's water dish I am very Grateful for this 1:1:1 Vinegar:Water:Alcohol solution....the conditoner is expensive and if I'm cleaning with bleach anyways what would be the point!! Thanks so much very helpful.


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## biochemnerd808 (Feb 7, 2013)

My inner nerd rejoices that I'm not the only one on here that likes to know *WHY* and *HOW* these work. 



Talka said:


> In the vinegar, what matters is that it's acetic acid (which all vinegar contains), so plain cheap vinegar works. What you're looking for is to lower the pH to kill bacteria. Bleach works in the opposite way, to kill bacteria with high pH.
> The alcohol helps penetrate tougher cell walls and denature the proteins inside, basically killing bacteria from the inside out.
> 
> Higher temperatures aid alcohol in penetrating cells more quickly, but with a 15 minute soaking the temp isn't critical. If you're doing a quicker cleaning, higher temperature would be advantageous.
> ...


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## sibi (Feb 7, 2013)

This is great for our tort's dishes, but it's also good to know how to sanitized anything if we should ever find ourselves in a survival situation (I always think the thoughts no one thinks of)


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