# what other species can live with a tortoise?



## CourtneyAndCarl

I have seen a lot of things on here about people keeping other animals in their tortoise enclosures for one reason or another. 

I think the most common I've seen people talk about is hermit crabs. I've also seen people mention house geckos, and even the occasional chameleon. Has anyone had any luck housing multiple species together? I'm not planning on doing it any time soon, but I was just looking into it more.


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## TortieLuver

Interesting question...I have never done it or even thought about it. I am curious to hear what others say


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## acrantophis

I posed the same question adequate months ago. I saw how san Diego zoo keeps lizards and tortoises together. I have a family of western fence lizards living and breeding in my outdoor sulcata enclosure. I didn't put them there but they are all over it and sleep In the den with her. I would think a few bird species would work too. Most people responded to my post negatively. For the most part tortoises do near by themselves. But many zoos keep large multi species enclosures. Sao paolo brazil keeps radiated tortoises with turtles and caiman! 



acrantophis said:


> I posed the same question adequate months ago. I saw how san Diego zoo keeps lizards and tortoises together. I have a family of western fence lizards living and breeding in my outdoor sulcata enclosure. I didn't put them there but they are all over it and sleep In the den with her. I would think a few bird species would work too. Most people responded to my post negatively. For the most part tortoises do near by themselves. But many zoos keep large multi species enclosures. Sao paolo brazil keeps radiated tortoises with turtles and caiman!



A few months ago! Not adequate months ago! Damn you autocorrect!!!!


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## GeoTerraTestudo

In a large enough enclosure, I wouldn't object to a few small lizards (like fence lizards, whip tails, or anoles) taking up residence. And I guess I wouldn't mind if wild birds or squirrels stopped by every now and then, either. But I don't think I would ever intentionally introduce other animals into my tortoises' outdoor enclosure (when they get one), simply because I'd want to avoid crowding, conflict, and contagion.


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## ErinB

I have found toads in the outdoor enclosure, but never anywhere near the tortoise. Since no one's mentioned those yet, is there any reason to worry about those?


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## GeoTerraTestudo

ErinB said:


> I have found toads in the outdoor enclosure, but never anywhere near the tortoise. Since no one's mentioned those yet, is there any reason to worry about those?



I doubt if visiting toads and frogs would pose a problem to tortoises or box turtles, or to aquatic turtles for that matter.


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## StudentoftheReptile

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> In a large enough enclosure, I wouldn't object to a few small lizards (like fence lizards, whip tails, or anoles) taking up residence. And I guess I wouldn't mind if wild birds or squirrels stopped by every now and then, either. But I don't think I would ever intentionally introduce other animals into my tortoises' outdoor enclosure (when they get one), simply because I'd want to avoid crowding, conflict, and contagion.



I think thats the distinction that most keepers take. You can't really control the small "backyard" fauna (i.e. native birds, lizards, squirrels, etc.) that is going to hang around anything you construct on your property. The main thing is that those animals can always leave the tortoise's enclosure.

Its another scenario entirely when you intentionally place another animal in the pen that does not have the choice of leaving on its own. Whether its another tortoise, another type of reptile, or whatever.




acrantophis said:


> But many zoos keep large multi species enclosures. Sao paolo brazil keeps radiated tortoises with turtles and caiman!



My typical response to such a statement is: just because a zoo does it, does not make it right. There are several threads on this site that criticize the husbandry practices of many zoos, so its known that such facilities are not perfect.
----
That said, some zoos do a good job with mixed species habitats. Major factors in their success are:

large, spacious and well-furnished enclosures
many of these exhibits involve species from a specific geographical area (known as a biotope)
the animals are all carefully monitored, and any unhealthy animals or overly aggressive ones are removed

In contrast, most (not all, _most_) private hobbyists attempt this simply because they feel their tortoise "needs a buddy." They rarely have enough space to do this adequately, nor do they rarely do enough research to evaluate the pros and cons of which species would be most ideal for mixing with their current tortoise (or any pet). They just think "Well, the zoo did it, so can I!" The thing is, the zoo probably has an exhibit larger than your bedroom. Can you REALLY replicate everything the zoo did do accomplish a mixed species habitat successfully?

And another point that was brought up in another thread was that zoos often do this, not for the benefit of the animals, but because exhibits that look empty do not attract visitors. People like to see a LOT of animals in a enclosure.

The bottom line is: there are many reasons NOT to do it. There really is not legitimate reason TO do it.


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## ErinB

Even in a zoo setting, you don't know if those animals are kept together 24/7. They may have holding areas behind the scenes where the animals are housed separately when the zoo is closed, and they are definitely cleaning those exhibits thoroughly every single day.

One other thing I've noticed is that some zoo enclosures will be made to look like they are continuous, but the animals are actually unable to reach each other. I was thinking this could work with arboreal species on top, some kind of hidden floor, then a tortoise or something similar below. With some creativity you could get the same effect of multi-species habitats without actually exposing different species to one another.


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## CourtneyAndCarl

ErinB said:


> I was thinking this could work with arboreal species on top, some kind of hidden floor, then a tortoise or something similar below. With some creativity you could get the same effect of multi-species habitats without actually exposing different species to one another.



That would actually be really cool! And then you could somehow do the same thing with a fish tank and have a whole "rainforest river" setup  Oh no, now I've got ideas! :O

I am not planning on keeping any "buddies" with Carl anytime soon. This question was actually brought on by my sister, who obviously knows nothing about keeping reptiles or any exotics for that matter, asked me "Why can't you just throw them all into one tank together, wouldn't that save so much space?" when talking about my White's Tree Frog, Hermann's Tort, and Leopard Gecko. Obviously, that's a no brainer, but it got my wondering if anything could be safely added into Carl's enclosure.


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## Madkins007

With indoor habitats, I agree with Student, but there are some co-inhabitants that could make sense. We've mentioned hermit crabs, which serve a sort of scavenger role, and small lizards which feed on the flying pests that can show up.

The main concerns are cross-contamination (diseases, parasites, etc.), injuries like bite wounds, injuries or stress caused by interspecies contact, feeding issues, waste control, etc.

Hermit crabs are nice as they are mostly nocturnal and armored. They would certainly scavenge a dead tortoise, but I never saw one bother a living tort. The small lizards are so arboreal that they are not a problem either.

Small lizards would require a pretty tightly-enclosed habitat, but if you can do that, then I really doubt there would be much of an issue with things like tree frogs, or even small arboreal snakes that share similar climate needs. Probably the biggest issue with any arboreal herp would be waste control so the torts don't try to eat too much of it.

You could probably do something fun with small birds as well, but birds are WAY outside my expertise, so I could not even guess the issues involved.

Ground-dwelling herps and bigger arboreal herps are trickier issues. While in theory, you SHOULD be able to house, say, an iguana, a boa, and a red-foot tort together, you will have issues of things eating other animal's wastes, managing the food so everyone gets what they need in the way they need it, dealing with the daily wear and tear the animals will put on the interior, etc.

It is the same basic issue of trying to manage other 'combination' habitats- like a wet/dry riverbank set-up. It looks great, but there are so many hidden issues that keep popping up that it will drive you crazy.


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## Crystal2807

The way my tort eats anything dead she can find laying around the yard, I almost think if she could catch it, she may kill and eat it.


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## CourtneyAndCarl

I would only have a problem keeping tree frogs with a tort because they will soak in any water source they can find, and they secrete toxins that can be dangerous even to other species of tree frog into the water.


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## Madkins007

futureleopardtortoise said:


> I would only have a problem keeping tree frogs with a tort because they will soak in any water source they can find, and they secrete toxins that can be dangerous even to other species of tree frog into the water.



That may be entirely true, and shows some of the more hidden risks of mixing species.


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## alben909

Never heard of that before


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## CourtneyAndCarl

Haha, I only know that because I have a tree frog )


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## acrantophis

I have been poisoned by many amphibians in my life. I have worked with poison dart frogs, Amazonian milk frogs, and all the European fire salamanders of the genus salamandra. At one time or another I have ingested their toxins or rubbed my eye after handling. It is no joke! The worst was a group of tiny fire salamanders. They had just lost their gills and I had brought them to a reptile show to sell. After handling them, I peeled and ate a grapefruit. Minutes later I was lying on my back in a huge pool of sweat. My wife said I was speaking but making no sense. It took me two days to recover. These babies were only 2" long! They knocked me on my butt. And I am 6'1" 225lbs. Toads and frogs should be kept out of watering areas for your tortoise. Bufo toxin from toads can kill a large dog. I love them but they would likely do serious damage to your tortoise.


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## CourtneyAndCarl

I was told that if a dog were to even lick a fire belly toad, it could be deadly. Guess that's why they are more of a "look but don't touch" kind of pet.


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## mctlong

Gnats, crickets, and fence lizards co-habitate with my Russian very well.  

But, seriously, I have no problem with combining species that are from a specific geographical area and that don't generally eat or poison each other. 

If you know what you're doing, you know the different pathogens and toxins that each species carries and you can safegaurd each animal against harm, I see no problem with co-habitating. The problem comes when you don't know what you're doing.



acrantophis said:


> I have been poisoned by many amphibians in my life. I have worked with poison dart frogs, Amazonian milk frogs, and all the European fire salamanders of the genus salamandra. At one time or another I have ingested their toxins or rubbed my eye after handling. It is no joke! The worst was a group of tiny fire salamanders. They had just lost their gills and I had brought them to a reptile show to sell. After handling them, I peeled and ate a grapefruit. Minutes later I was lying on my back in a huge pool of sweat. My wife said I was speaking but making no sense. It took me two days to recover. These babies were only 2" long! They knocked me on my butt. And I am 6'1" 225lbs. Toads and frogs should be kept out of watering areas for your tortoise. Bufo toxin from toads can kill a large dog. I love them but they would likely do serious damage to your tortoise.



Oh my! Thats suonds awful! I'm glad you recovered.



Madkins007 said:


> With indoor habitats, I agree with Student, but there are some co-inhabitants that could make sense. We've mentioned hermit crabs, which serve a sort of scavenger role, and small lizards which feed on the flying pests that can show up.
> 
> The main concerns are cross-contamination (diseases, parasites, etc.), injuries like bite wounds, injuries or stress caused by interspecies contact, feeding issues, waste control, etc.
> 
> Hermit crabs are nice as they are mostly nocturnal and armored. They would certainly scavenge a dead tortoise, but I never saw one bother a living tort. The small lizards are so arboreal that they are not a problem either.
> 
> Small lizards would require a pretty tightly-enclosed habitat, but if you can do that, then I really doubt there would be much of an issue with things like tree frogs, or even small arboreal snakes that share similar climate needs. Probably the biggest issue with any arboreal herp would be waste control so the torts don't try to eat too much of it.
> 
> You could probably do something fun with small birds as well, but birds are WAY outside my expertise, so I could not even guess the issues involved.
> 
> Ground-dwelling herps and bigger arboreal herps are trickier issues. While in theory, you SHOULD be able to house, say, an iguana, a boa, and a red-foot tort together, you will have issues of things eating other animal's wastes, managing the food so everyone gets what they need in the way they need it, dealing with the daily wear and tear the animals will put on the interior, etc.
> 
> It is the same basic issue of trying to manage other 'combination' habitats- like a wet/dry riverbank set-up. It looks great, but there are so many hidden issues that keep popping up that it will drive you crazy.



Well said, Mark.


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## Madkins007

re: amphibian toxins- It would be really interesting to know if these toxins worked against chelonians. I wonder this for two reasons-
a.) Chelonians are notoriously resistant to a lot of toxins that affect other types of animals, and
b.) Most toxins are targeted towards some aspects of biochemistry. A toxin that kills A, B, and C may be completely harmless to X, Y, and Z. I would wonder if amphibian toxins are 'aimed' mostly at mammals and birds, or what.

Does not really affect the original post, just something that I started to wonder reading the comments.


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## CourtneyAndCarl

Madkins007 said:


> re: amphibian toxins- It would be really interesting to know if these toxins worked against chelonians. I wonder this for two reasons-
> a.) Chelonians are notoriously resistant to a lot of toxins that affect other types of animals, and
> b.) Most toxins are targeted towards some aspects of biochemistry. A toxin that kills A, B, and C may be completely harmless to X, Y, and Z. I would wonder if amphibian toxins are 'aimed' mostly at mammals and birds, or what.
> 
> Does not really affect the original post, just something that I started to wonder reading the comments.



All I know is that you have to be careful even with housing different peaceful species of tree frog together because they may be effected by each other's toxins. Although I guess tree frogs would benefit from poisoning mammals, birds, and other amphibians more than they would an herbivorous tortoise, but who knows. Now I'm also curious.


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## Madkins007

Thanks, Future- that helps fill in part of my information gap. If their toxins affect other frogs AND mammals, they probably affect everything in-between. So my first question is still a possibility, but the second is probably pretty well answered.


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## CourtneyAndCarl

Madkins007 said:


> Thanks, Future- that helps fill in part of my information gap. If their toxins affect other frogs AND mammals, they probably affect everything in-between. So my first question is still a possibility, but the second is probably pretty well answered.



I think it really depends on the amphibian. Usually the toxin goes about as far as putting a nasty taste in the predator's mouth that makes them think twice about biting again. Or there's the invasive Cain toad in Australia, where there are dogs that seek out Cain toads in their yard to lick them because of the euphoric sensations the toxins cause


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## wellington

futureleopardtortoise said:


> Madkins007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, Future- that helps fill in part of my information gap. If their toxins affect other frogs AND mammals, they probably affect everything in-between. So my first question is still a possibility, but the second is probably pretty well answered.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it really depends on the amphibian. Usually the toxin goes about as far as putting a nasty taste in the predator's mouth that makes them think twice about biting again. Or there's the invasive Cain toad in Australia, where there are dogs that seek out Cain toads in their yard to lick them because of the euphoric sensations the toxins cause
Click to expand...


Okay, now you did it. That last line, about Cain toads if licked give off a euphoric sensation. Well now the price of them are going to sky rocket, the amount of them sold will now triple and we are going to see a bunch of members posting their pics of their new Cain Toad.   LOL


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## CourtneyAndCarl

wellington said:


> Okay, now you did it. That last line, about Cain toads if licked give off a euphoric sensation. Well now the price of them are going to sky rocket, the amount of them sold will now triple and we are going to see a bunch of members posting their pics of their new Cain Toad.   LOL



Well Cain toads are taking over Australia and are considered the worst of the worst as far as invasive species go... so... if you really want to start an American population, you go right on ahead, but you may have people with torches and pitchforks at your door in a short matter of time


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