# Guarantees



## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 29, 2018)

~ Guarantees in the tortoise community. Almost every customer asked me what kind of guarantee we have on our aldabra tortoise hatchlings. I see that some breeders, sources, etc. offer guarantees of some sort. Besides the guarantee of successful delivery, my question basically is on guaranteeing how long a tortoise that was sold will live. Does anyone offer guarantees on how long a tortoise will live? How long a tortoise will be healthy? We had a shipper that we contracted with and always had the lost/stolen insurance, however the airlines would never guarantee live arrival, just the arrival dead or alive. When a tortoise is delivered dead, what do most of you do? I have talked to many about this subject, on both sides of the transaction. At times it can be an enormous loss for one side or both. We have never had a dead delivery, however in full disclosure we usually avoid shipping. I have simply declined sales at times instead of taking a risk. What do you do if someone gets a hatchling and it dies a few weeks after delivery? 

~ I guess i am interested other opinions and perspectives of guarantees when it comes to hatchlings in the tortoise community. Also would like to hear if any have had issues and how they were resolved. 

~ All opinions, thoughts, perspectives and experiences welcome.


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## KarenSoCal (Sep 29, 2018)

I have no experience with buying a tortoise, but have bought other pets under varying circumstances.

I certainly believe that there should be some recourse for people who have bought any animal only to have it die soon after bringing it home. Even Petco or Petsmart will replace a fish if it dies within, I think, 10 days after purchase.

I once bought a baby skunk from a breeder, who shipped her to me "overnight delivery" on a plane. The breeder did not guarantee live delivery, but offered helpful tips on how to make sure I had a case against the airline if she arrived dead. It was assumed that a live animal was sent to me, and the only way death could occur so quickly was if the transportation was mishandled. Fortunately she was alive and well and a joy to have for 9 years.

For an aldabra, a fair amount of time would have to be determined for a guarantee. We read here on TFO of so many babies of other species dying of "hatchling failure syndrome" or "failure to thrive", which seems to show up 3 months or so after purchase.

Whatever time period decided upon, I would put the burden of proof on the owner. Require the owner to pay for a necropsy. That should determine if the animal was ill long enough for it to have been sick while still with the breeder, or if it was poor care by the owner. If the owner is unwilling to have this done, then maybe he has doubts about his care. Obviously, the breeder would only replace the baby if it was proven to be a longer term illness.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 30, 2018)

KarenSoCal said:


> I once bought a baby skunk



~ We have one, most friendly and sweetest little girl.......


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## wellington (Sep 30, 2018)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> ~ We have one, most friendly and sweetest little girl.......
> 
> View attachment 253009


What happened to the other one you had? My hub wanted a skunk. He's not one to even want a pet. So I jumped at trying to find one for sale just too find out they are not allowed here. Such a bummer.


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## ALDABRAMAN (Sep 30, 2018)

wellington said:


> My hub wanted a skunk. He's not one to even want a pet.



~ We have always had a skunk, truly a awesome pet. They are still available, permit (class III) required.


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## Pearly (Sep 30, 2018)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> ~ Guarantees in the tortoise community. Almost every customer asked me what kind of guarantee we have on our aldabra tortoise hatchlings. I see that some breeders, sources, etc. offer guarantees of some sort. Besides the guarantee of successful delivery, my question basically is on guaranteeing how long a tortoise that was sold will live. Does anyone offer guarantees on how long a tortoise will live? How long a tortoise will be healthy? We had a shipper that we contracted with and always had the lost/stolen insurance, however the airlines would never guarantee live arrival, just the arrival dead or alive. When a tortoise is delivered dead, what do most of you do? I have talked to many about this subject, on both sides of the transaction. At times it can be an enormous loss for one side or both. We have never had a dead delivery, however in full disclosure we usually avoid shipping. I have simply declined sales at times instead of taking a risk. What do you do if someone gets a hatchling and it dies a few weeks after delivery?
> 
> ~ I guess i am interested other opinions and perspectives of guarantees when it comes to hatchlings in the tortoise community. Also would like to hear if any have had issues and how they were resolved.
> 
> ~ All opinions, thoughts, perspectives and experiences welcome.



I think that this maybe something for less known breeders, and don’t believe that someone with your history and reputation should even worry about that. You treat your tortoises and their offspring as family members. What more could a potential buyer want??? I also have mixed feelings about shipping live animals. If I ever wanted to/could take on a baby Aldabran I’d take some time off work and do this RIGHT: travel down to meet with you, tour the facility and take my precious Cargo into previously prepared heated humid travel container to bring her home in. As for the “guarantees” I have seen them for “live delivery”, or even the “first year of life”! I think I did see that one somewhere, but then I’d worry about some under-committed/undereducated/irresponsible new owners who with such guarantees may feel like they can get away with the minimal effort/expense on building the set up, obtaining good chemical free food, bcs “they got the STRONG baby tort”. In short: I don’t really have the answer, but my gut tells me that a breeding and keeping practices such as @ALDABRAMAN, there is no need for additional assurances. Just like if dealing with Tom or Yvonne, I’d feel like no matter what happens there is plenty of integrity on their side to make things RIGHT. You know- the old way of doing business, with honorable people, when handshake was all that’s required. I believe that there is still a bunch of us - Die-Hards - left to try and teach the young kids today how much simpler and easier things can be when you can just be HONEST and stick by few simple values and stop worrying so much about all the popular opinions and trends. It should be good enough to have your own and be faithful to ones beliefs. Again, if I can ever buy a tortoise from @ALDABRAMAN, to me the best guarantee would be right THERE! In the NAME of the breeder.


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## KarenSoCal (Sep 30, 2018)

ALDABRAMAN said:


> ~ We have always had a skunk, truly a awesome pet. They are still available, permit (class III) required.


Back 40 years ago, no permit was required in PA. Don't know about now.
Mine was a sweet girl too, named Peek-a-Boo. My then 3 year old niece named her.


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## KarenSoCal (Sep 30, 2018)

@Pearly wrote

"Just like if dealing with Tom or Yvonne, I’d feel like no matter what happens there is plenty of integrity on their side to make things RIGHT." 

I absolutely agree with you, but that's because we know them. If a buyer is not familiar with the breeder over a period of time like we are, I can't fault the buyer for wanting some assurance.

(for some reason, it wouldn't let me edit Pearly's post, hence the quoted portion.


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## Pearly (Sep 30, 2018)

KarenSoCal said:


> @Pearly wrote
> 
> "Just like if dealing with Tom or Yvonne, I’d feel like no matter what happens there is plenty of integrity on their side to make things RIGHT."
> 
> ...



Good point, and then, another thought: to always check reviews, do some background check on the seller bfr money changes hands. Or, maybe have the seller (@ALDABRAMAN in this case) refer potenti buyer to this forum or parts of it. Encourage them to join and get educated about the species while obtaining very valuable information about the potential source of a future PET, a companionlikely for a lifetime! Which is to me like getting married, you want to be sure you chose wisely, right?


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## KarenSoCal (Sep 30, 2018)

Pearly said:


> Good point, and then, another thought: to always check reviews, do some background check on the seller bfr money changes hands. Or, maybe have the seller (@ALDABRAMAN in this case) refer potenti buyer to this forum or parts of it. Encourage them to join and get educated about the species while obtaining very valuable information about the potential source of a future PET, a companionlikely for a lifetime! Which is to me like getting married, you want to be sure you chose wisely, right?


I completely agree with every bit of this...especially the last sentence! [emoji6]


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## SPILL (Oct 1, 2018)

I would have a problem buying from someone who doesn't guarantee live arrival since it is up to the seller when and how to ship or not to ship at all. Once I see the tortoise move properly, eat, drink, and go to the bathroom it is my tortoise and anything that happens after that is on me.


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## wellington (Oct 1, 2018)

@Will @Markw84 @Tom @allegraf @HermanniChris 
Any breeder/sellers want to add what you do or think?


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 1, 2018)

These are two slightly different statements I am pondering on using. In short many things can happen that are out of my hands, no my fault, or responsibility. In many cases I would suspect I'd offer some measure of resolution where neither of us are made whole, but neither of us are burdened fully for some thing that may happen. I already know some folks will never be happy, so I don't worry about them in the first place.
*
1)Animals Shipped *Live animal arrival is guaranteed. I put a vibrant, alert, well doing tortoise in the shipping container and expect that is what you should find when you open the box. This live arrival guarantee is limited to tortoises I ship via an overnight or same day carrier that will knowingly transport live animals. They will be shipped in accordance to all regulations as far as I am aware of them. You must be present on the first delivery attempt and report any concern right away, but no more than an hour later. I strongly suggest that you consider receiving the tortoise at the local shipping center as that reduces the number of hours in the box, several 'handlings' and at least one more vehicle transport by the carrier.

I grow neonates to no less than 8 weeks of age before I will sell them no matter if it is a in-person pick-up, or shipped. On the occasions where I am selling tortoises bred by a collaborator they too will be held and maintained by me for at least 8 weeks before being sold.

Any aberrant physical appearance will be disclosed in a posted image or noted directly to you. This includes scute count and shape, toes or tail tips that are damaged, etc. All tortoises for sale will have been eating, defecating and showing active growth before being shipped.

*2)LIVE ARRIVAL GUARANTEE.* I guarantee that I am putting a healthy vibrant tortoise in the box to be shipped to you. You must express any concern within a hour of FedEx's declared delivery time. ANY concern should be expressed right away, or no later than one hour after FedEx's declared delivery time. Be prepared to backup concerns with clear, in focus well lighted images.

If you do a pick up at the local FedEx ship center you must pick-up within the first hour that location is open.

All remediation (righting a wrong or correcting a fault) will be negotiated. If I did not do anything wrong or the problem is not my fault I will not have a solution. I offer lifetime support for husbandry and care.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 2, 2018)

wellington said:


> @Will @Markw84 @Tom @allegraf @HermanniChris
> Any breeder/sellers want to add what you do or think?


@TylerStewart 
@Az tortoise compound
@Southernreptiles


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## KarenSoCal (Oct 2, 2018)

Will said:


> These are two slightly different statements I am pondering on using. In short many things can happen that are out of my hands, no my fault, or responsibility. In many cases I would suspect I'd offer some measure of resolution where neither of us are made whole, but neither of us are burdened fully for some thing that may happen. I already know some folks will never be happy, so I don't worry about them in the first place.
> 
> *2)LIVE ARRIVAL GUARANTEE.* I guarantee that I am putting a healthy vibrant tortoise in the box to be shipped to you. You must express any concern within a hour of FedEx's declared delivery time. ANY concern should be expressed right away, or no later than one hour after FedEx's declared delivery time. Be prepared to backup concerns with clear, in focus well lighted images.
> 
> ...



You didn't ask for input, but my opinion is that I prefer the second statement, "Live Arrival Guarantee".
I would add 2 lines to it (in parentheses above.
When I picked up my skunk, I went directly to the airport, where I was told she had actually arrived the previous evening, and I had not been called. The worker had brought her shipping carrier into a warm office, so at least an attempt was made to keep her well. 
On a funny note, she was a 5 week old unweaned baby that fit on the palm of my hand...and her container had stickers all over it that proclaimed "WILD ANIMAL-CAUTION!"


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## Grandpa Turtle 144 (Oct 2, 2018)

Will
I love your last line of this pic


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 2, 2018)

KarenSoCal said:


> You didn't ask for input, but my opinion is that I prefer the second statement, "Live Arrival Guarantee".
> I would add 2 lines to it (in parentheses above.
> When I picked up my skunk, I went directly to the airport, where I was told she had actually arrived the previous evening, and I had not been called. The worker had brought her shipping carrier into a warm office, so at least an attempt was made to keep her well.
> On a funny note, she was a 5 week old unweaned baby that fit on the palm of my hand...and her container had stickers all over it that proclaimed "WILD ANIMAL-CAUTION!"


Thanks Karen.


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## TylerStewart (Oct 3, 2018)

Long story short, we guarantee live arrival and 7 days beyond that_ if the tortoise is set up as described on our website_. We guarantee them through shipping mistakes and delays as well which is out of mine and the customer's control, but I assume that's a risk I take in selling tortoises online, it's my problem to get them to the customer safely. Our website description (on every page that sells baby tortoises) is how we have been raising them, and works well for us and has for years. Perfect, smooth, firm tortoises. I can't rely on what the internet told them was a correct setup because it's usually not. If a tortoise is not eating well or inactive for someone, I will ask for photos of the setup, and there's almost always a correction that can be made that resolves the problem. In the rare case that a tortoise dies in transit, usually only after a delay in hot or cold weather, we immediately replace it at no cost, and no cost for shipping the second time. In the winter, we use the larger 60 hour heat packs so even with the occasional 24 hour delay, it's still warm all the way to the customer. If a tortoise dies within the 7 day window, we will replace it as well. If the customer appears to have the setup dialed in and seems to have their head on straight, we will cover the cost of shipping the second time. If a customer is rude or disrespectful or anything like that, we will refund what they paid for the tortoise and be done with them. I have a pretty short fuse for that stuff. Fortunately it's not common and we only have these issues a few times a year, if that (shipping roughly 400-600 tortoises a year). It's less than 1% that we replace.

We had someone recently get a tortoise that didn't do well, a leopard, and died after a few days. He pretty quickly asked for a replacement which I agreed to, and agreed to at no cost with no new shipping cost for the customer, then in passing he asked me if 15 watts was a hot enough bulb (it isn't unless the tortoise was basically in direct contact with it). I got photos of the setup and suggested changes. The UVB strip bulb was a few years old, he kinda just wasn't ready.... More than once in the past, I have had people send me pictures of their setup that did look good, I replaced a tortoise, and I later found the same image on google (they stole a nice looking setup photo from google and sent it to me as if it was theirs). I love when customers email me and tell me they have the setup ready and warmed up and are now ready for their tortoise (which happened this morning), because so many do not do that.

We never never use a little dumb loophole buried in a lengthy Terms and Conditions page to skip out on our guarantee, and we have never denied someone because UPS screwed up in any way. We are honest and workable and want everyone to be happy with our transactions. We make exceptions to our guarantee occasionally as well, extending it, particularly if someone bought a full setup from us at the same time so we know they are making that effort to set them up right.

There will always be the customers that are never happy as I think someone mentioned above. We try our best, but unfortunately, there's no flag that pops up and tells me that this customer is going to be a headache LOL. Myself and a few other tortoise/turtle vendors used to have an email list we would bounce back and fourth of bad customers that we all wanted to avoid and help each other avoid. It came in handy for them a few times, refunded a sale as soon as it happened, etc.


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## Tim Carlisle (Oct 3, 2018)

TylerStewart said:


> Long story short, we guarantee live arrival and 7 days beyond that_ if the tortoise is set up as described on our website_. We guarantee them through shipping mistakes and delays as well which is out of mine and the customer's control, but I assume that's a risk I take in selling tortoises online, it's my problem to get them to the customer safely. Our website description (on every page that sells baby tortoises) is how we have been raising them, and works well for us and has for years. Perfect, smooth, firm tortoises. I can't rely on what the internet told them was a correct setup because it's usually not. If a tortoise is not eating well or inactive for someone, I will ask for photos of the setup, and there's almost always a correction that can be made that resolves the problem. In the rare case that a tortoise dies in transit, usually only after a delay in hot or cold weather, we immediately replace it at no cost, and no cost for shipping the second time. In the winter, we use the larger 60 hour heat packs so even with the occasional 24 hour delay, it's still warm all the way to the customer. If a tortoise dies within the 7 day window, we will replace it as well. If the customer appears to have the setup dialed in and seems to have their head on straight, we will cover the cost of shipping the second time. If a customer is rude or disrespectful or anything like that, we will refund what they paid for the tortoise and be done with them. I have a pretty short fuse for that stuff. Fortunately it's not common and we only have these issues a few times a year, if that (shipping roughly 400-600 tortoises a year). It's less than 1% that we replace.
> 
> We had someone recently get a tortoise that didn't do well, a leopard, and died after a few days. He pretty quickly asked for a replacement which I agreed to, and agreed to at no cost with no new shipping cost for the customer, then in passing he asked me if 15 watts was a hot enough bulb (it isn't unless the tortoise was basically in direct contact with it). I got photos of the setup and suggested changes. The UVB strip bulb was a few years old, he kinda just wasn't ready.... More than once in the past, I have had people send me pictures of their setup that did look good, I replaced a tortoise, and I later found the same image on google (they stole a nice looking setup photo from google and sent it to me as if it was theirs). I love when customers email me and tell me they have the setup ready and warmed up and are now ready for their tortoise (which happened this morning), because so many do not do that.
> 
> ...


It's always a shame when honest breeders get taken advantage of like that. Always getting stuck between a rock and a hard place when giving good customer service and something like that happens. I'm afforded an onsite inspection in my line of work to ensure warranty work is coverable. I can imagine it's much more difficult for you.


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## xphare (Oct 5, 2018)

TylerStewart said:


> Long story short, we guarantee live arrival and 7 days beyond that_ if the tortoise is set up as described on our website_. We guarantee them through shipping mistakes and delays as well which is out of mine and the customer's control, but I assume that's a risk I take in selling tortoises online, it's my problem to get them to the customer safely. Our website description (on every page that sells baby tortoises) is how we have been raising them, and works well for us and has for years. Perfect, smooth, firm tortoises. I can't rely on what the internet told them was a correct setup because it's usually not. If a tortoise is not eating well or inactive for someone, I will ask for photos of the setup, and there's almost always a correction that can be made that resolves the problem. In the rare case that a tortoise dies in transit, usually only after a delay in hot or cold weather, we immediately replace it at no cost, and no cost for shipping the second time. In the winter, we use the larger 60 hour heat packs so even with the occasional 24 hour delay, it's still warm all the way to the customer. If a tortoise dies within the 7 day window, we will replace it as well. If the customer appears to have the setup dialed in and seems to have their head on straight, we will cover the cost of shipping the second time. If a customer is rude or disrespectful or anything like that, we will refund what they paid for the tortoise and be done with them. I have a pretty short fuse for that stuff. Fortunately it's not common and we only have these issues a few times a year, if that (shipping roughly 400-600 tortoises a year). It's less than 1% that we replace.
> 
> We had someone recently get a tortoise that didn't do well, a leopard, and died after a few days. He pretty quickly asked for a replacement which I agreed to, and agreed to at no cost with no new shipping cost for the customer, then in passing he asked me if 15 watts was a hot enough bulb (it isn't unless the tortoise was basically in direct contact with it). I got photos of the setup and suggested changes. The UVB strip bulb was a few years old, he kinda just wasn't ready.... More than once in the past, I have had people send me pictures of their setup that did look good, I replaced a tortoise, and I later found the same image on google (they stole a nice looking setup photo from google and sent it to me as if it was theirs). I love when customers email me and tell me they have the setup ready and warmed up and are now ready for their tortoise (which happened this morning), because so many do not do that.
> 
> ...



I received my baby leopard tortoise from you in I believe September of 2017 and she (hopefully) is doing great! I have no doubt that there are the very rare cases when a tortoise passes away soon after arrival but if they are anywhere near as active and hungry as my little one was then I find it very hard to believe anyone received a sick tortoise.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 5, 2018)

It may seem outta the range of possible, but I have seen poor husbandry kill a tortoises in one day. Invariably from too much heat and no way to get out of it. In a month by no water or soaks, and about the same time with no heat source at all. 

I had taken many (100's) husbandry call questions when I worked at the Philadelphia Zoo. The interest to get is not matched by the interest to do well.

If ever someone had a reasonable narrative about an animal not doing well, and it's because the animal ended up not being a do'er even after the husbandry vetting they go through with me. I'd help that person out. That is so much the rare exception though. That's why I don't receive and ship neonates from collaborative breeders within a few days. I hold for 8 weeks and see how the tortoise is doing - is there active growth, do the stools (poop) look okay, does the tortoise respond to my presence? That's all critical to the whole of " I guarantee that I am putting a healthy vibrant tortoise in the box to be shipped to you."

On a few occasions shipping has been delayed, yet the tortoise still performs well for the recipient. That too is why I make sure I am putting a vibrant animal in the box.


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## KarenSoCal (Oct 5, 2018)

Will said:


> It may seem outta the range of possible, but I have seen poor husbandry kill a tortoises in one day. Invariably from too much heat and no way to get out of it. In a month by no water or soaks, and about the same time with no heat source at all.



I am speechless (and that doesn't happen often [emoji6]).

I wouldn't call this poor husbandry...I'd call it "gross stupidity".

Anybody ever put one outside for a few hours to "play in the snow"? Wouldn't surprise me now. [emoji22]


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## Pearly (Oct 14, 2018)

KarenSoCal said:


> I am speechless (and that doesn't happen often [emoji6]).
> 
> I wouldn't call this poor husbandry...I'd call it "gross stupidity".
> 
> Anybody ever put one outside for a few hours to "play in the snow"? Wouldn't surprise me now. [emoji22]



Anything is possible! People (some) often just DO NOT THINK past the tip of their own nose. It’s not that they mean to cause harm to the living breathing being, but they are so ... inwardly focussed, that it’s all about meeting THEIR needs and nobody else’s. I hate to sound like the „Cassandra” (the one from Troy) but I see MANY kids nowadays showing those characteristics. And us (the older dudes and dudettes) are watching it with helpless frustration. I know, I’m talking like my Grandma now, but it’s true! Today everything is easier, and gratification is expected to be INSTANT! With no effort, no time leading to it. My kids are avid iphone and macbook users, but they don’t know (rather don’t WANT to know) how to use a broom or rag to sweep or wipe down their mess... and it’s this same battle! Every day! Times have changed! I’m not necessarily saying it’s worse than when I was growing up in the 70’s &80’s. It’s just different! There is a fine line between teaching our kids some timeless values, code of ethics (about courage and honesty, perseverance, respect, kindness, etc) and blocking the Wheel of Progress. These kids’ drive to instant gratification is in big part what unchains their imagination and genious of future invention and progress. It wouldn’t be right to stifle that. I pretty much resign myself to the fact that I’m just getting old and there is already that big genetational divide between myself and my young children. And they are GOOD kids! but watching them I can see how easy it is to lose a baby tortoise... they too often fall victim to their egocentric way of thinking, inability to put needs if someone other than ME before my own. I don’t even blame those kids for letting all those poor baby animals die from their neglect and lack of adequate reasearch of proper husbandry. I think it’s us, the parents who so othen fail to be the Role Model in how to be a responsible pet owner for our new generation. I don’t even nag my daughter anymore about her daily chores in caring for those torts. I do most of the work, but she HAS TO HELP. Day in and day out. The food, the outside for daytime, inside for night, the food, the water, the baths, the heat/humidity, the weight/growth monitoring niw down to every couple of months... i always THANK HER for helping me (caring for HER pets). There was a time that I feared I’d have to put the torts in foster care for a while due to family/health situations, but my kids know how agonizing the decision on that had been, and everyday they watched me look for solutions/possibilities. These kids today have serious problem with things like a COMMITMENT. Getting a tortoise is a good way to learn about it, but again, this is up to us, the older generation to model that to our children. Teach them by example. Sorry about the rant. The thought of „cooking” baby torts in small enclosure where they can’t get away from the heat just got my blood boiling. But i know it does happen! That and other equally horrible things. Torts falling of hights, getting bitten by dogs, ingesting objects that end up blocking their intestines, females dropping eggs on hard floors with no substrate to dig in, babies with bite injuries from other torts living in one small barren enclosure, respiratory infections from cold temps, and vast array of other preventable things. I think that breeders sending weakly baby torts are much less prevelent than brand new, ill prepared keepers who bear responsibility for all those premature deaths. Btw I also HATE the idea of putting a baby tort in the box and shipping across state lines, but if they must ship, using well equipped agency for shipping live animals is much more acceptable. As prospective buyer I’d be willing to pay more in order to provide optimal conditions for my new pet. It is our responsibility to EDUCATE the public everywhere possible about humane and correct ways of handling those transactions. I don’t think professional breeder practices are the problem. It maybe more that “backyard breeders” or “brokers” (who buy in bulk for resale). To them it’s not about the welfare of the animals but just another place where there is money to be made.


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## KarenSoCal (Oct 14, 2018)

Pearly said:


> Anything is possible! People (some) often just DO NOT THINK past the tip of their own nose. It’s not that they mean to cause harm to the living breathing being, but they are so ... inwardly focussed, that it’s all about meeting THEIR needs and nobody else’s. I hate to sound like the „Cassandra” (the one from Troy) but I see MANY kids nowadays showing those characteristics. And us (the older dudes and dudettes) are watching it with helpless frustration. I know, I’m talking like my Grandma now, but it’s true! Today everything is easier, and gratification is expected to be INSTANT! With no effort, no time leading to it. My kids are avid iphone and macbook users, but they don’t know (rather don’t WANT to know) how to use a broom or rag to sweep or wipe down their mess... and it’s this same battle! Every day! Times have changed! I’m not necessarily saying it’s worse than when I was growing up in the 70’s &80’s. It’s just different! There is a fine line between teaching our kids some timeless values, code of ethics (about courage and honesty, perseverance, respect, kindness, etc) and blocking the Wheel of Progress. These kids’ drive to instant gratification is in big part what unchains their imagination and genious of future invention and progress. It wouldn’t be right to stifle that. I pretty much resign myself to the fact that I’m just getting old and there is already that big genetational divide between myself and my young children. And they are GOOD kids! but watching them I can see how easy it is to lose a baby tortoise... they too often fall victim to their egocentric way of thinking, inability to put needs if someone other than ME before my own. I don’t even blame those kids for letting all those poor baby animals die from their neglect and lack of adequate reasearch of proper husbandry. I think it’s us, the parents who so othen fail to be the Role Model in how to be a responsible pet owner for our new generation. I don’t even nag my daughter anymore about her daily chores in caring for those torts. I do most of the work, but she HAS TO HELP. Day in and day out. The food, the outside for daytime, inside for night, the food, the water, the baths, the heat/humidity, the weight/growth monitoring niw down to every couple of months... i always THANK HER for helping me (caring for HER pets). There was a time that I feared I’d have to put the torts in foster care for a while due to family/health situations, but my kids know how agonizing the decision on that had been, and everyday they watched me look for solutions/possibilities. These kids today have serious problem with things like a COMMITMENT. Getting a tortoise is a good way to learn about it, but again, this is up to us, the older generation to model that to our children. Teach them by example. Sorry about the rant. The thought of „cooking” baby torts in small enclosure where they can’t get away from the heat just got my blood boiling. But i know it does happen! That and other equally horrible things. Torts falling of hights, getting bitten by dogs, ingesting objects that end up blocking their intestines, females dropping eggs on hard floors with no substrate to dig in, babies with bite injuries from other torts living in one small barren enclosure, respiratory infections from cold temps, and vast array of other preventable things. I think that breeders sending weakly baby torts are much less prevelent than brand new, ill prepared keepers who bear responsibility for all those premature deaths. Btw I also HATE the idea of putting a baby tort in the box and shipping across state lines, but if they must ship, using well equipped agency for shipping live animals is much more acceptable. As prospective buyer I’d be willing to pay more in order to provide optimal conditions for my new pet. It is our responsibility to EDUCATE the public everywhere possible about humane and correct ways of handling those transactions. I don’t think professional breeder practices are the problem. It maybe more that “backyard breeders” or “brokers” (who buy in bulk for resale). To them it’s not about the welfare of the animals but just another place where there is money to be made.





Pearly said:


> Anything is possible! People (some) often just DO NOT THINK past the tip of their own nose.



Pearly, I think you are correct on every point you made! Some people just don't think at all!

And I have a question for you...when did common sense cease to exist? Now we have to google every simple concept!


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 18, 2018)

I'll help out a little here with others and members who did not see the thread...

http://www.gardenstatetortoise.com/terms--conditions
http://www.arizonatortoisecompound.com/Terms-and-Conditions.html
https://www.tortoisetown.com/7-day-tortoise-health-guarantee/
http://www.turtlesandtortoises.com/Terms-and-Conditions.html
https://www.cbreptile.com/guarantee/
https://www.tortoisesupply.com/pages/Terms-&-Conditions.html
https://myturtlestore.com/terms-and-conditions/
https://www.floridaiguana.com/terms-of-service

There are no doubt more.

I like something Chris has done on his T&C as follows...
_In the event of an issue with your purchase, it is imperative that you contact us first and foremost. We want our customers to be happy and will work with you in a fair manner in the event that you are unhappy about something. However, it should not go without saying that if you take an issue to any of the online forums within this industry/hobby/community and attempt to publish a negative thread and/or post about Garden State Tortoise LLC and/or its affiliates, you will NOT RECEIVE ANY COMPENSATION OF ANY SORT. We MUST be notified first of a potential problem of any kind so that we get the chance to deal with it. Failure in doing so and by sharing our dealings with the public in a negative manner will land you with absolutely nothing. All contact from that point on will be stopped. If you have an issue, get in touch with us, we're very easy to talk to!_

With so many keyboard warriors in the world this makes a great deal of sense to me, Chris is easy to talk to.


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## mark1 (Oct 18, 2018)

I got no response until I posted a negative review , seems something happened to his initial "immediate" response , but after the review his e-mail seemed to work just fine …….……… I've bred dogs for decades , there were/are no terms and conditions , other than you proving to me you were qualified to own one , beyond that my only concern was the pup or dog , but then it wasn't about money to me , it was about finding appropriate good homes for what I didn't want ……. these guys would sell an animal into any and every condition with zero regard for the ability of who's getting them to care for them , but reptiles have always been disposable pets ……...


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## Kapidolo Farms (Oct 18, 2018)

mark1 said:


> I got no response until I posted a negative review , seems something happened to his initial "immediate" response , but after the review his e-mail seemed to work just fine …….……… I've bred dogs for decades , there were/are no terms and conditions , other than you proving to me you were qualified to own one , beyond that my only concern was the pup or dog , but then it wasn't about money to me , it was about finding appropriate good homes for what I didn't want ……. these guys would sell an animal into any and every condition with zero regard for the ability of who's getting them to care for them , but reptiles have always been disposable pets ……...


How many dogs did you ship?


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## mark1 (Oct 18, 2018)

many , never an issue , national or international , to and from …….. I know many breeders that ship all over the world , I can think of none that have had an issue with shipping by air ……shipping problems is not my point , nobody ships a dog 2nd day mail …… my point is , oftentimes social media is the only way to get a result , I've seen it many times ……. every breeder I know of got someone who says they were screwed by them , having placed many pups , some folks deserve screwed , they want to discuss their issues in public , no problem , I assure you folks with common sense will see what's up , nothing to fear , unless just maybe you think there is ??????? as I said reptiles are seen by most as disposable , including most of the folks selling them , the money not so much ........dogs are seen by very few as disposable , shipper kills a dog , probably making the news …….. personally I think many folks sell animals they are having or suspect are having problems , they don't die in 7 days ………..

I've had some awesome dogs , not only looked the part , but for real , animals ……



















































the above dogue I believe the best ddb ***** I have ever seen …. I seen a lot ……….

her daughter 

died at 11 from injuries sustained being stomped by a moose , what an accomplishment she was , beautiful animal …….


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