# FRIENDLY discussion on taking turtles from the wild



## Rob1985 (May 29, 2018)

MODERATOR NOTE: These posts were removed from a different thread because it was getting off topic. Rob1985 is not the OP of this thread, I am. Yvonne


I'd really love to see the studies that say the decline in box turtle population is due in large part to people taking one here and there, and _not _because of overdevelopment. It seems on par with saying that climate change is caused by people having too many bonfires in their backyards. The holier-than-thou attitude of those on this forum who can afford to buy overpriced turtles from breeders (*shudder*) is a little disconcerting.


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## Jay Bagley (May 29, 2018)

Took a quick screenshot, last paragraph.


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## TechnoCheese (May 30, 2018)

Rob1985 said:


> I'd really love to see the studies that say the decline in box turtle population is due in large part to people taking one here and there, and _not _because of overdevelopment. It seems on par with saying that climate change is caused by people having too many bonfires in their backyards. The holier-than-thou attitude of those on this forum who can afford to buy overpriced turtles from breeders (*shudder*) is a little disconcerting.



Why are breeders a (*shudder*)? Does it not seem more ideal to get a captive bread animal in stead of stealing one from its natural habitat? Instead of potentially hurting an ecosystem? Instead of potentially harming the turtle that you captured?
What do you mean if they can “afford to buy an overpriced turtle”? If you find a good breeder, it’s not overpriced. I found box turtles for 100 dollars from a breeder once. Is that overpriced? That sounds cheep for an animal to me. When you buy “an overpriced animal from a breeder”, if it’s a good breeder, it’s not overpriced. You’re paying for a Healthy, well started animal.
If someone can not afford to pay even a hundred dollars for an animal, what makes you think they will be able to afford a proper set-up, lighting, vet care, etc? Buying an animal comes with the cost of keeping one.
It’s not a “holier-than-thou attitude”. It’s common sense.


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## daniellenc (May 30, 2018)

Rob1985 said:


> I'd really love to see the studies that say the decline in box turtle population is due in large part to people taking one here and there, and _not _because of overdevelopment. It seems on par with saying that climate change is caused by people having too many bonfires in their backyards. The holier-than-thou attitude of those on this forum who can afford to buy overpriced turtles from breeders (*shudder*) is a little disconcerting.



i actually agree with over development contributing to the decline of box turtles 100%. However, you can't deny the glaring reality wild animals often do not do well in captivity. The change in habitat, temperatures, diet, sounds, and vibrations in a human home cause stress which causes the overproduction of parasites and death. It's not holier than thou to want to prevent unnecessary suffering of an animal. Look at WC importing and death rates for newly imported animals with experienced breeders and keepers. Any experienced keeper will share this reality- many will not make it. Many will not acclimate to their new environment, many will not adjust to the new foods being introduced, and many will not respond to vet care, worming, and antibiotics because the change is just too stressful.

Now take an inexperienced keeper with limited knowledge and sub optimal husbandry practices. Do you think the turtles chances of survival and thriving improve? The OP literally posted a thread help I have a box turtle what do I feed it. He housed it with his CB animal which now undoubtedly has contracted worms and other parasites. I'm not trying to be mean but a new keeper and a WC animal don't go well together. It takes far more experience to work with WC animals and your average genius who "rescues" a turtle crossing the road and thinks it's so cute doesn't have it. If it's holier than thou to expect people to responsibly purchase an "expensive" CB animal what do you call someone who can't afford vet care or proper husbandry for their WC animal? Like if you can't spend $100 on the animal and another few hundred on an enclosure and supplies what does that really say about the quality of that animals life?


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## Rob1985 (May 30, 2018)

I think what this study may have been referring to was unscrupulous, greedy people grabbing every wild turtle they can en masse for the purpose of resale, and I'm not arguing that that has decimated the turtle population. How else would they have collected the data? Surveyed households across the state ("Excuse me sir, did you take a box turtle from the wild in the last year?") I was arguing with the idea that people here and there taking one turtle had decimated their population. I think the OP in this thread was given or found a solitary box turtle.

As for the OP, yeah, he could use a little more research into turtle care. I wasn't arguing that he doesn't. I found out what a crapload of work they were after I got my first one, but instead of neglecting it, I just made a decision to work harder to keep it healthy. But instead of yelling at him to put it back, tell him they need a lot of work and he needs to make a decision if he's ready for that kind of commitment. I think Yvonne's response was on the right track. 

As for breeders, Northeast Reptiles posted about "strange wounds" on his new turtle that he got from a breeder (I'm not attacking you, NE Reptiles, just using an example. I'm glad your turtle got a good home). It looks like a skin infection of some sort, probably from being kept in unsanitary conditions at the breeders. If it was instead, as some people suggested in that thread, from an overeager male, where was the breeder while the that female was being to mounted excessively? Furthermore, apparently this breeder didn't even give the turtle a once-over before packing it up for shipment. I'm sure there are some good breeders, but I'm also sure there are a lot of crappy ones. Just like puppy mills. Let's be honest, what breeders care about is money.


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## Tom (May 30, 2018)

Rob1985 said:


> Let's be honest, what breeders care about is money.



That is not honest or correct. That is a sweeping generalization that lumps a few bad apples in with a very large batch of good apples. I'm a breeder. I lose money every year. I don't care. I do this because I love it. I breed because I love seeing people enjoy raising my babies the same way I enjoyed raising their parents.

Further I find it sad the the people you've run into and the experiences you've had in dealing with Chelonians has led you to the conclusions you've reached and shared here on this thread. My experiences and the majority of the people I've run into in this "business" has left me with a very different perspective than yours.


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## mark1 (May 30, 2018)

the odds of a hatchling turtle surviving to adulthood are infinitesimally small ....... the survival strategy for turtles is their lifespans .... it may take a wood or blanding's turtle surviving 15-18yrs to reach reproductive maturity . they can then produce offspring for the next 50,60-70yrs , that's how a population with such a poor survival rate sustains itself ....... to replace one adult taken out of a population could require hundreds of hatchlings , possibly more , maybe thousands in that turtles lifetime .........

there were studies on north american wood turtles , ended when the entire population being studied was gone from one year to the next , all the other life on the river was unaffected , it is obvious what happened to them ........ something like a guy named larry tregle , who 5-6 yrs ago pled guilty to selling $400,000 in mostly pennsylvania caught N.A. wood turtles , that was a plea deal , they did have bank records ...... can you imagine the real number ? how many turtles you think that is ?


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## Jay Bagley (May 30, 2018)

Rob1985 said:


> I think what this study may have been referring to was unscrupulous, greedy people grabbing every wild turtle they can en masse for the purpose of resale, and I'm not arguing that that has decimated the turtle population. How else would they have collected the data? Surveyed households across the state ("Excuse me sir, did you take a box turtle from the wild in the last year?") I was arguing with the idea that people here and there taking one turtle had decimated their population. I think the OP in this thread was given or found a solitary box turtle.
> 
> As for the OP, yeah, he could use a little more research into turtle care. I wasn't arguing that he doesn't. I found out what a crapload of work they were after I got my first one, but instead of neglecting it, I just made a decision to work harder to keep it healthy. But instead of yelling at him to put it back, tell him they need a lot of work and he needs to make a decision if he's ready for that kind of commitment. I think Yvonne's response was on the right track.
> 
> As for breeders, Northeast Reptiles posted about "strange wounds" on his new turtle that he got from a breeder (I'm not attacking you, NE Reptiles, just using an example. I'm glad your turtle got a good home). It looks like a skin infection of some sort, probably from being kept in unsanitary conditions at the breeders. If it was instead, as some people suggested in that thread, from an overeager male, where was the breeder while the that female was being to mounted excessively? Furthermore, apparently this breeder didn't even give the turtle a once-over before packing it up for shipment. I'm sure there are some good breeders, but I'm also sure there are a lot of crappy ones. Just like puppy mills. Let's be honest, what breeders care about is money.


I agree with you there are some crappy breeders out there. They're usually the ones that you see their babies are being raised on rabbit pellets and giving out horrible misleading information being fed great big handfuls of iceberg lettuce. Most of the bad ones fit the bad breeder stereotype to the letter. I also agree with you that there are a lot of good ones. But as far as all they care about is money, I think only the bad ones that statement applies to. Seems like the vast majority of breeders here on this form tend to put educating the public, taking exceptional care of their babies, conservation of the species, I could go on and on. But in the end they care far more about the tortoises then they do the money. I put that screenshot article up there as a reference from one state just to show how many tortoises are being ripped from the wild. To show why some of the operators are possibly so enthusiastic about not pulling them from the wild. Just an example, but if a thousand people in one state share the same mentality that it's only one or two tortoises that I'm taking, that's a thousand tortoises taken out. It's not just one person taking one tortoise.


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## TechnoCheese (May 30, 2018)

Rob1985 said:


> As for breeders, Northeast Reptiles posted about "strange wounds" on his new turtle that he got from a breeder (I'm not attacking you, NE Reptiles, just using an example. I'm glad your turtle got a good home). It looks like a skin infection of some sort, probably from being kept in unsanitary conditions at the breeders. If it was instead, as some people suggested in that thread, from an overeager male, where was the breeder while the that female was being to mounted excessively? Furthermore, apparently this breeder didn't even give the turtle a once-over before packing it up for shipment. I'm sure there are some good breeders, but I'm also sure there are a lot of crappy ones.


This could also be said about wild turtles. How do you know it doesn’t have parasites? Some disease that can affect the rest of the OP’s pets? It could be sick, it could be laying eggs, looking for a mate, and so on. There is definitely a bigger risk of these things when taking them from the wild, as opposed to using a GOOD breeder. 

And as previous member(s) have pointed out, it doesn’t just effect the one turtle. It prevents many generations, and hundreds of turtles from being born. If everyone shared your mentality, they would be wiped out.


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## vladimir (May 30, 2018)

mark1 said:


> there were studies on north american wood turtles , ended when the entire population being studied was gone from one year to the next , all the other life on the river was unaffected , it is obvious what happened to them ........ something like a guy named larry tregle , who 5-6 yrs ago pled guilty to selling $400,000 in mostly pennsylvania caught N.A. wood turtles , that was a plea deal , they did have bank records ...... can you imagine the real number ? how many turtles you think that is ?



I had not heard of this, but here's an article: http://www.theadvocate.com/new_orleans/news/article_c077dcb5-4856-5408-9d53-014bf09205ce.html

Archived here if that link dies: https://web.archive.org/web/2018053...cle_c077dcb5-4856-5408-9d53-014bf09205ce.html

Edit: oops! Too slow!


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## Toddrickfl1 (May 30, 2018)

Overpriced breeders? Box turtles are like $60. If you can't afford that sorry but you should probably reevaluate whether owning a turtle is for you then.


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## Rob1985 (May 30, 2018)

I apologize for quickly painting turtle breeders with a broad brush. I did not mean to be "dishonest". I've never met a turtle breeder in person, so I should not have generalized.from the captive-bred turtles I've seen, or the other animal breeders I've met. . 

All the sites I've seen selling box turtles are $100+. If that's misinformed, then I apologize for that. But the attitude if you can't afford the purchase price, you can't afford the item is ok for cars, but pretty snobby for pets. I'd much rather spend the money on taking care of the turtle than the turtle itself. 

I just find this forum has _some_ people that are extremely opinionated and make turtle ownership out to be an exclusive club. I've also found some people with high post counts (not in reference to this particular thread, although I have seen some of them comment on this topic) that have said some pure non-sense about turtle care. I actually had some non-chelonian lovers look at some of the threads, and they came away with the same opinion ("turtle snobs" was one quote). You push away new chelonian lovers with that kind of attitude. And then no one will give a crap about running one over on the road, instead of helping it across.


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## wellington (May 30, 2018)

It should be plain and simple. Leave the wild in the wild, period. That's not the way to get a tortoise/turtle. Keeping them is not cheap. So, yes, I have the attitude that if you can't afford to buy one then you probably can't afford to care for one. I'm not going to apologize for that attitude either. It just might save lives of torts/turtles from living in a poorly condition. You don't have to be rich, you just have to be able to afford it. We have kids that do chores to save up their money to BUY the tortoise or turtle along with all the stuff it needs. If it's being a snob to want to educate people on not taking from the wild and why, then I'm a snob and proud of it! I will put animal health and well being over people's feelings every time.
Btw, the title of this thread is quite confusing. You want a friendly discussion but you then call people snobs and all breeders money hungry. Not quite the way to start out a friendly discussion.


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## Toddrickfl1 (May 30, 2018)

" But the attitude if you can't afford the purchase price, you can't afford the item is ok for cars, but pretty snobby for pets."

I'm trying to understand the logic in statement? If anything its the opposite way around. When you take on a pet you are assuming responsibility for that animal and it is fully dependant on you for survival. If your car breaks and you can't afford to fix it you just get a ride. If you can't afford to give your animal the proper care that animal may suffer greatly so I'd have to disagree. The people in here just care greatly about these animals, thats all.

-


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## Redfool (May 30, 2018)

Rob1985 said:


> The holier-than-thou attitude of those on this forum who can afford to buy overpriced turtles from breeders (*shudder*) is a little disconcerting.


From all I’ve read on this is not a forum for the mill breeder. If you rescue a “free” shelter dog you send 75 to 125 dollars to spay/neuter, 25 dollars for pain meds and another 35 for its vet check. Free huh. I for one as a RF breeder watch for nesting, dig eggs, set up and place in incubators and maintain eggs (yes they do need maintaining) for over 120 days (4 months). When they hatch each one is marked and documented for growth, visually eating, drinking along with daily soaks. This usually takes another month. I would never let any questionable tort go as I’m sure all in this forum wouldn’t either. It’s as easy as that. Holier-than-thou moley.


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## ascott (May 30, 2018)

Rob1985 said:


> I think what this study may have been referring to was unscrupulous, greedy people grabbing every wild turtle they can en masse for the purpose of resale, and I'm not arguing that that has decimated the turtle population. How else would they have collected the data? Surveyed households across the state ("Excuse me sir, did you take a box turtle from the wild in the last year?") I was arguing with the idea that people here and there taking one turtle had decimated their population. I think the OP in this thread was given or found a solitary box turtle.
> 
> As for the OP, yeah, he could use a little more research into turtle care. I wasn't arguing that he doesn't. I found out what a crapload of work they were after I got my first one, but instead of neglecting it, I just made a decision to work harder to keep it healthy. But instead of yelling at him to put it back, tell him they need a lot of work and he needs to make a decision if he's ready for that kind of commitment. I think Yvonne's response was on the right track.
> 
> As for breeders, Northeast Reptiles posted about "strange wounds" on his new turtle that he got from a breeder (I'm not attacking you, NE Reptiles, just using an example. I'm glad your turtle got a good home). It looks like a skin infection of some sort, probably from being kept in unsanitary conditions at the breeders. If it was instead, as some people suggested in that thread, from an overeager male, where was the breeder while the that female was being to mounted excessively? Furthermore, apparently this breeder didn't even give the turtle a once-over before packing it up for shipment. I'm sure there are some good breeders, but I'm also sure there are a lot of crappy ones. Just like puppy mills. Let's be honest, what breeders care about is money.



"people taking them here and there"....well, lets use this as comparison...what if all of the people in the world just threw down a single fast food napkin...along it is only a napkin....all together, there is going to be a hella lot of napkins littering around...what a mess...so collectively, yes, it does add up....


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## Rob1985 (May 30, 2018)

Like beating one's head against a wall. But you all must know best. 

I extend an olive branch by apologizing for making sweeping generalizations about breeders, and you all continue to jump on my back. So don't worry, if my turtles have a problem that I don't know about (because I can admit when I don't know about something or don't have the absolute truth, unlike some people on this forum who have read a paperback book on turtle care and think they're gurus), I'll just do my best but let the chips fall where they may. Your exclusive club won't be disturbed anymore and you can sit in your pools of self-adulation and moral condemnation. Don't worry, I will watch silently though as you shoot your mouths off to newcomers and each other, and have a chuckle (so will my turtles). 

My previous dog was free off of craigslist (ad was up for almost a year and no one wanted a 9 year old GSD mix: the owners were about to euthanize him) and my current dog was $100 from the SPCA, which included spaying, all basic vaccinations, and microchipping, as she had languished in various shelters for over a year, because again, no one wanted an older mixed dog. So I don't need a lecture on the costs of dogs vs turtles, or one in general on proper animal care. You can get a perfectly good pet without spending a lot of money, unless you're getting it for the wrong reasons. 

Turtles are all "wild" animals, whether you paid money to a breeder or scooped them up. I've seen plenty of captive-born turtles struggling to get out of their cages. You can pretend they're not wild because you paid for them, if that helps you sleep at night (Budweiser works fine for me though). 
Also, maybe someone could work for a private detective agency, because you're so adept at extrapolating data from and analyzing photos. Incidentally that photo I posted was from a 10 year-old flip phone, because I spend a good chunk of money on my turtles' upkeep and not fancy phones. The only time you'll see me in the fresh produce aisle of a real supermarket is for my turts. But I guess I and others like me don't deserve to have them cause we can't or simply don't want to pay breeder fees, reasonable or not. BTW, my turts started eating again the day after they awoke from brumation. Guess I was very negligent in letting them brumate in straw...
Hmmmmmmm, Chicago. I don't think the air pollutants in the urban/suburban environment are appropriate for chelonian lungs, bred or otherwise. To heck with your people feelings, you should move or re-home your turtles. Get the point yet? (Probably not. I'd search through your posts so I can pick apart _your_ turtle enclosure in more detail, but no one appointed me God or Captain Planet. Apparently that's your department)
And I did not name this thread, it got moved from another thread by a moderator because I ignited a firestorm by challenging the group-think that I observed going on there. After watching this forum for months (had an account for 8 months and a whopping 9 posts. Cheesy saying, but you've got two eyes, two ears, and _one _mouth...), I got tired of reading opinion masquerading as fact and moral imperative, so I stopped restraining my keyboard and responded in a less-than-optimal thread for it.

But regardless, I'll leave you all alone, to your internet and your lousy attitudes. 

Adios, I'll make sure the door doesn't hit me in the vent on the way out.


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## ZEROPILOT (May 31, 2018)

@Rob1985
I'm confused. I just stumbled upon this thread.
Why would you post such a thread and then take offense to the answers?
If you can read between the lines, they mostly say that here at the TFO, we advocate for NOT contributing to the decline of these animals in the wild and to keep only such animals that were born as pets. This is for several reasons including cross contamination from diseases that could wipe out entire wild populations.
A lot of us have had some type of "breeder" situation and we only pass on/sell to individuals that can and will keep our babies correctly. I can say for myself that I have NEVER made money off of any of that. It's usually a loss.
So, while you are correct that a "pet" turtle/tortoise is still a wild animal, you're missing the point. We try very hard to not affect the wild populations of these animals. And that is a HUGE difference.


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## Jay Bagley (May 31, 2018)

Rob1985 said:


> Like beating one's head against a wall. But you all must know best.
> 
> I extend an olive branch by apologizing for making sweeping generalizations about breeders, and you all continue to jump on my back. So don't worry, if my turtles have a problem that I don't know about (because I can admit when I don't know about something or don't have the absolute truth, unlike some people on this forum who have read a paperback book on turtle care and think they're gurus), I'll just do my best but let the chips fall where they may. Your exclusive club won't be disturbed anymore and you can sit in your pools of self-adulation and moral condemnation. Don't worry, I will watch silently though as you shoot your mouths off to newcomers and each other, and have a chuckle (so will my turtles).
> 
> ...


[emoji850]


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## Toddrickfl1 (May 31, 2018)

OP states that $100 for a box turtle is an overpriced breeder fee

Ops current dog was adopted for $100
And OP was ok with that?

That's like rain, on your wedding day
A little bit ironic
Don't ya think?


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## daniellenc (May 31, 2018)

Rob1985 said:


> Like beating one's head against a wall. But you all must know best.
> 
> I extend an olive branch by apologizing for making sweeping generalizations about breeders, and you all continue to jump on my back. So don't worry, if my turtles have a problem that I don't know about (because I can admit when I don't know about something or don't have the absolute truth, unlike some people on this forum who have read a paperback book on turtle care and think they're gurus), I'll just do my best but let the chips fall where they may. Your exclusive club won't be disturbed anymore and you can sit in your pools of self-adulation and moral condemnation. Don't worry, I will watch silently though as you shoot your mouths off to newcomers and each other, and have a chuckle (so will my turtles).
> 
> ...



I don't think I understand the animosity? People all disagree from time to time and that's ok and what builds group dynamics. No one is always right or wrong, and some opinions are honestly neither. Take this forum for example- some advocate different substrates, keeping in groups vs. single, there are a ton of opinions on diet, enclosure size, and plenty of other examples where keepers are doing and sharing what is working well for them; and what hasn't. It is up to the individual tort owner to decide what is best for them.

I'm sorry if you felt attacked because many here agree taking in WC animals is harmful to the population but if you look at laws in States where box turtles are indigenous clearly these States agree after seeing a sharp decline of their native species. It is illegal in most States to keep a wild box turtle and many require permits to purchase a CB animal. It would seem to me you as a long time keeper probably have a lot of experience to share. You also could potentially learn something new here which is a win win to me. I also doubt you'd seriously allow your animals to suffer if you needed advice on something you didn't know. You aren't that stubborn!! I don't think people have had poor attitudes but rather expressed themselves passionately because they are genuinely concerned. And your opinion is welcome here whether the majority agree or not.

One distinction I'd like to make is a wild animal is one that was born in the wild. Purchasing a captive bred and born animal is not the same. And you don't maybe agree that CB animals are healthier, easier to maintain, and do better in captivity just a little bit???? For a new keeper acclimating your CB hatchling is not the same as trying to treat and acclimate a WC animal.


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## wellington (May 31, 2018)

I think this OP just wants to argue. His title and first post prove that. I'm thinking it might be troll season or the heat is effecting people's brains. 
Some people just can't handle getting answers that doesn't justify what they are doing.


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## Toddrickfl1 (May 31, 2018)

I think it's a full moon?


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## Jay Bagley (May 31, 2018)

If I'm really part of an exclusive club, do I get a t-shirt? lol


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## mark1 (May 31, 2018)

Rob1985 said:


> (because I can admit when I don't know about something or don't have the absolute truth, unlike some people on this forum who have read a paperback book on turtle care and think they're gurus)



to me , it seems like it might be you ? i personally don't care what you think of "turtle breeders" the quotation marks being i doubt your definition of a turtle breeder would coincide with mine ............ as far as collecting turtles from the wild for pets , your view is without question wrong and harmful to the long term survival of all species ........ some folks just don't want to hear the truth , they'd rather be right in their own mind ....... if you feel you are correct , debate your point with facts and experience ...... on this one you'll lose , logic trumps illogical with logical people always ......


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## Toddrickfl1 (May 31, 2018)

Turtlesnobs.com

It does kind of have a ring to it......


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## Yvonne G (May 31, 2018)

Let me set something straight. I moved some posts off of a different thread because the posts were getting way off original topic. Rob didn't start the thread, I did. It's just that Rob's post was the first one moved.

I don't think it's being a snob to advocate not taking tortoises from the wild. There are those who advocate not taking tigers from the wild. Snobs? But, to be fair, Rob was talking about OVERDEVELOPMENT being more harmful to the wild populations than people taking them from the wild. Someone made a very good post, but I don't have time to go back and look for it. Basically they said something like it takes a turtle/tortoise a very long time to grow to breeding age. When you take a full grown tortoise out of the wild, you remove a very good part of the tortoise "manufacturing plant." 100 % of baby tortoises don't survive. By removing full grown tortoises from the wild you are limiting the gene pool and causing extinction of that species to come much sooner than it would if we leave the wild tortoises alone.

I think maybe the "snob" portion of the comment referred to us telling people if you can't afford to care for the animal or buy all the supplies needed to keep it healthy, then don't get the animal, or give it to someone who can care for it. I don't think that's snobby at all. Have you not ever watched the Animal Cops type programs? So many people have dogs that are skinny, and tick/flea infested. We have not qualms about telling those types of folks if you can't afford to take care of your dog give it to someone who can. Are we snobs when we say that? Or are we looking out for the health and welfare of the dog.

But I must agree that we have jumped on poor Rob after he apologized. I think that's because most of us tend to reply to a post before reading the whole thread. Don't be put off, Rob. You're an asset to our Forum. We need people with different thoughts than the prevailing thoughts. I'd hate to become known as the cookie cutter forum.


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## Redfool (May 31, 2018)

Jay Bagley said:


> If I'm really part of an exclusive club, do I get a t-shirt? lol



Exclusives like us wear polos, not t-shirts


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## Turtulas-Len (May 31, 2018)

I believe one of the main causes for the demise of the eastern box turtles in the wild is development, Not over development.I saw so many 100s of acres of woodland, marshes and swampy areas destroyed starting in the late 1950s and early 60s with the beginning construction for the US Interstate Highway System. Mainly the Washington Capital Beltway in Maryland, At that time it was interstate 495, now it is mingled with 95, which came later.When the beltway was opened in 1963 new housing developments and shopping centers started popping up everywhere, usually near a beltway interchange to an existing road.There was no regard for what lived there or the future results of the destruction of their habitat. Now when I'm while driving down the road and see a Coming Soon sign (for whatever business it may be) I think about the turtles that are going to be killed when the bulldozers arrive. It would be nice if there was a group that would go and collect the torts and whatever other wildlife they could find to save them. I believe something like this was done a while back concerning the construction of the inter county connector in Montgomery and PG Counties in Md Also last Friday I went out to rt 301 which is 10 miles, On the round trip I saw 2 box turtles one water turtle( either painted or red belly), 2 squirrels and a adult black snake dead on the road.This a country road with no shoulders and the speed limit is 55 so you cant stop to help them across the road and some people can't seem to miss them..


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## Redfool (May 31, 2018)

Turtulas-Len said:


> I believe one of the main causes for the demise of the eastern box turtles in the wild is development, Not over development.I saw so many 100s of acres of woodland, marshes and swampy areas destroyed starting in the late 1950s and early 60s with the beginning construction for the US Interstate Highway System. Mainly the Washington Capital Beltway in Maryland, At that time it was interstate 495, now it is mingled with 95, which came later.When the beltway was opened in 1963 new housing developments and shopping centers started popping up everywhere, usually near a beltway interchange to an existing road.There was no regard for what lived there or the future results of the destruction of their habitat. Now when I'm while driving down the road and see a Coming Soon sign (for whatever business it may be) I think about the turtles that are going to be killed when the bulldozers arrive. It would be nice if there was a group that would go and collect the torts and whatever other wildlife they could find to save them. I believe something like this was done a while back concerning the construction of the inter county connector in Montgomery and PG Counties in Md Also last Friday I went out to rt 301 which is 10 miles, On the round trip I saw 2 box turtles one water turtle( either painted or red belly), 2 squirrels and a adult black snake dead on the road.This a country road with no shoulders and the speed limit is 55 so you cant stop to help them across the road and some people can't seem to miss them..



Been a while since I lived up there but I remember along Rock Creek Park and the C&O canal you could always find box turtles on land and painted turtles along the water. That was a long time ago, I assume it’s all paved and concreted now. 301 was really in the sticks.


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## Kapidolo Farms (May 31, 2018)

There are indeed 'studies' that show collecting box turtles here and there, or even subsidizing box turtle predators (and other turtles species) does in fact impact and reduce, sometime eliminate populations.

I have attended conferences and symposiums off and on for 30 plus years, many of which do not publish proceedings and the authors may be government employees so their work is published as grey literature.

Picking up one or two, here and there - One study correlated the use by native Americans of box turtle shells as 'purses' to the historical traditional tribal area of those people and the dearth of box turtles in that area, which was otherwise perfectly suitable habitat. Another study correlated the opening of a Boy Scout camp with the decline of wood turtles in what had been a long term study site. One biologist lamented at a meeting that well intentioned people picked up and brought to 'rescues' 100's of box turtles in populated areas of Long Island as the wild turtles "must belong to someone".

Subsidized predators - At least one sea turtle researcher has correlated the decline of some nesting beaches successes to TV's. Instead of hunting raccoons as a past time (severe predators of sea turtle babies) the pastime of hunting has been replaced by TV watching. The correlated activity graph was amazing. Sea turtle population in balance with raccoons when raccoon predators were abundant, then people disturb that balance, then hunting raccoons becomes a 'hobby', the sea turtles have a comeback, then hinting as pastime gets put aside for TV's and the sea turtles start declining again. Yeah I know correlation does not prove causation.

In my own quest to find native populations of box turtles I found that sizable undeveloped areas hemmed in by interstates have large populations. A few other conditions need to be met. Why, because animals that prey on box turtle usually have a larger range than the box turtles, which leads them to cross the interstate, and they get run over sooner or later.

Chelonians are on the slow and steady side of the reproduction spectrum, contributing a few surviving off-spring every years over decades. The other end of the spectrum would be animals that spew out many off-spring every year and have short fast lives. So the collection of a few adult females removes many hundred of off-spring over her lifetime, in just one collection event.

These are what make the idea of sustainable harvest a slippery slope for chelonians. It can be done but most collectors don't seem to have the patience for it.

Will, one of the chelonian breeder millionaires (NOT!), Biologist
Kapidolo Farms


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## daniellenc (May 31, 2018)

Redfool said:


> Been a while since I lived up there but I remember along Rock Creek Park and the C&O canal you could always find box turtles on land and painted turtles along the water. That was a long time ago, I assume it’s all paved and concreted now. 301 was really in the sticks.


I live right near the path in rock creek park. Matter of fact I do a lot of foraging there.


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## Turtulas-Len (May 31, 2018)

Redfool said:


> Been a while since I lived up there but I remember along Rock Creek Park and the C&O canal you could always find box turtles on land and painted turtles along the water. That was a long time ago, I assume it’s all paved and concreted now. 301 was really in the sticks.


I haven't been up there in about 50 years so I wouldn't know what it's like now. Are you old enough to remember Glen Echo when it was an amusement park ? Parts or 301 are still in the sticks, but more people heading either north or south are figuring out it's quicker than setting on 95 in backed up traffic. So more traffic especially on holiday weekends.


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## Redfool (May 31, 2018)

I haven’t been in about 45 years. I do remember Glen Echo Amusement Park out by Great Falls and Cabin John. I also used to drag race out off of 301 at Budds Creek Dragway in Mechanicsville.


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## Turtulas-Len (May 31, 2018)

Redfool said:


> I haven’t been in about 45 years. I do remember Glen Echo Amusement Park out by Great Falls and Cabin John. I also used to drag race out off of 301 at Budds Creek Dragway in Mechanicsville.


In 1968 and 69 I raced a 289 ci (it was one of the 289s manufactured before they went to the 302 ci) 68 mustang at Capital Raceway right on 301 around Crofton and Aquasco,and Buds Creek. That's when they were switching to ET brackets instead of just qualifying with what you had under the hood.I ran M stock and won Maryland State for M stock in 1968. I didn't care for the ET racing because i was running against much larger engines like 396 Chevy's. I did win some because they would run faster than what what was allowed for the bracket. In fact I was at one of the tracks (i don't remember which one) the day we landed on the moon.


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## Redfool (May 31, 2018)

Turtulas-Len said:


> In 1968 and 69 I raced a 289 ci (it was one of the 289s manufactured before they went to the 302 ci) 68 mustang at Capital Raceway right on 301 around Crofton and Aquasco,and Buds Creek. That's when they were switching to ET brackets instead of just qualifying with what you had under the hood.I ran M stock and won Maryland State for M stock in 1968. I didn't care for the ET racing because i was running against much larger engines like 396 Chevy's. I did win some because they would run faster than what what was allowed for the bracket. In fact I was at one of the tracks (i don't remember which one) the day we landed on the moon.



Early 70’s ran in 10.01 bracket. Drove a 67 Chevelle 427 Rat motor. Ran high 10s but never did “breakout”.


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## madbad (May 31, 2018)

Toddrickfl1 said:


> Turtlesnobs.com
> 
> It does kind of have a ring to it......




typed it in, saw a tortoise penis


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## ZEROPILOT (Jun 1, 2018)

Redfool said:


> Early 70’s ran in 10.01 bracket. Drove a 67 Chevelle 427 Rat motor. Ran high 10s but never did “breakout”.


I currently have a dragbike. I've been racing since about 1978.
Maybe we should start a drag race thread?
(This one is getting de railed)


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## mark1 (Jun 1, 2018)

Your never going to stop development , the only places for wildlife will be areas set aside for such , where they and the habitat are protected , or wildlife that can survive urban settings ……… I seen a study by new York wildlife on blanding’s turtle population growth rates within the state , all the population growth rates were negative …. There was a 95% certainty that there would be no viable population in the state in 300yrs ……. The populations studied were estimated to be between 1500 and 4500 turtles ……… the annual mortality rate was estimated to be 4% , the road mortality rate estimated to be .55% over a 15 yr period ……. Given an average population of 3000 , that would be 16 adult turtles killed on the roads each year …….. they calculated that in order to have a 95% certainty of having viable populations of blanding’s turtles in new York in 300yrs , road mortality would need reduced by 20% annually ……… there was a guy not to long ago busted in ohio with 50-60 adult poached blandings turtles , based on a 3000 turtle population those 50-60 turtles would reduce that road mortality rate by 20% for the next 16yrs …….. I seen two , without question , poached blandings turtles for sale on fauna within the last 6 months , those two alone would just about fulfill that 20% need ……..


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## madbad (Jun 1, 2018)

mark1 said:


> Your never going to stop development , the only places for wildlife will be areas set aside for such , where they and the habitat are protected , or wildlife that can survive urban settings ……… I seen a study by new York wildlife on blanding’s turtle population growth rates within the state , all the population growth rates were negative …. There was a 95% certainty that there would be no viable population in the state in 300yrs ……. The populations studied were estimated to be between 1500 and 4500 turtles ……… the annual mortality rate was estimated to be 4% , the road mortality rate estimated to be .55% over a 15 yr period ……. Given an average population of 3000 , that would be 16 adult turtles killed on the roads each year …….. they calculated that in order to have a 95% certainty of having viable populations of blanding’s turtles in new York in 300yrs , road mortality would need reduced by 20% annually ……… there was a guy not to long ago busted in ohio with 50-60 adult poached blandings turtles , based on a 3000 turtle population those 50-60 turtles would reduce that road mortality rate by 20% for the next 16yrs …….. I seen two , without question , poached blandings turtles for sale on fauna within the last 6 months , those two alone would just about fulfill that 20% need ……..




Such a good post


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## TechnoCheese (Jun 1, 2018)

madbad said:


> typed it in, saw a tortoise penis



[emoji23]


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## EdMurphy (Jun 5, 2018)

Rob1985 said:


> The holier-than-thou attitude of those on this forum who can afford to buy overpriced turtles from breeders (*shudder*) is a little disconcerting.



If you consider the true cost of taking a turtle from the wild then $100 for a CB seems a very reasonable price to pay.
Here is a posting I found on Youtube.

Great Big Story
Published on Jun 4, 2018

Endemic to the dry southern forests of Madagascar, the radiated tortoise has an incredibly long lifespan—the oldest tortoise on record reached an estimated 188 years of age. They boast highly intricate, dome-shaped shells lined with blood vessels, making them sensitive to the touch. Due to hunting and the illegal pet trade, the species has seen a 50 percent decrease in their population over the past decade. It is estimated that a staggering quarter of a million radiated tortoises are harvested each year. Because of these constant threats, conservationists have estimated that these tortoises could go extinct in less than 20 years.


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## BloodbucketXXL (Jun 6, 2018)

I don't disagree with the idea that taking turtles (or any animal) from the wild should be discouraged, but I sort of have to play devil's advocate here.

1) Someone mentioned above that it's NOT just a case of one person taking one or turtles, but that it's hundreds of thousands of people each taking one or two turtles. And that adds up to A LOT of turtles. While I don't disagree with that, I have to point out that those are isolated incidents that don't have anything to do with each other. If 5,000 people each go out and take two turtles, that's 10,000 turtles gone. Which is a big deal. But if Jack goes out and captures two turtles, that's only 2 out of 10,000. The other 9,998 turtles still would have been gone regardless of what Jack does. Jack's contribution to the turtle crisis is still only 2. Sort of like you can't blame me for the outcome of a presidential election just because I didn't go out and vote. The net effect from all non-voters is huge, but everyone else is going to vote (or not vote) the same way they did regardless of what I do. My contribution is minimal.

2) Someone also posted about turtle's high mortality rates and long lives, which is why taking one turtle isn't really removing one turtle but more like removing _hundreds or thousands of turtles_. The thing is, if Jack goes out and captures one baby just-recently-hatched turtle, that turtle's chances of survival in the wild are very slim. Isn't it likely that that turtle would have probably ended up being one of the many turtles that die before ever reproducing anyway? And yes, I obviously realize that there's no way to tell which turtles would have survived and which would have died. But just going off of their low survival rates, any individual (hatchling) turtle is obviously quite unlikely to contribute to the gene pool regardless of if it is captured or left alone. It probably would have died anyway. And yes, I realize that this obviously only applies to the babies.


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## AllieKat1997 (Aug 30, 2018)

Rob1985 said:


> MODERATOR NOTE: These posts were removed from a different thread because it was getting off topic. Rob1985 is not the OP of this thread, I am. Yvonne
> 
> 
> I'd really love to see the studies that say the decline in box turtle population is due in large part to people taking one here and there, and _not _because of overdevelopment. It seems on par with saying that climate change is caused by people having too many bonfires in their backyards. The holier-than-thou attitude of those on this forum who can afford to buy overpriced turtles from breeders (*shudder*) is a little disconcerting.



I’m in Missouri and when I was a kid (5 years old to about 14) my grandparents would do yard work every day in the summer/spring and would find me box turtles- probably like a dozen. I wouldn’t keep them, but I would play with them, sometimes paint their shells (which I know now was harmful) and then let them go back where we found them. Now I’m twenty, nearly twenty-one, and we never see box turtles anymore, my grandparents didn’t move or anything, everything is the same but the turtles are gone. I don’t know if people keeping them is the problem, or if they got hit by cars, or just moved out. I miss seeing them though.


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## Loohan (Aug 30, 2018)

Every year in my small town in Arkansas, they have a Turtle Race. I have never attended as for one thing it's always on Saturdays when i work. But a friend told me that people come in with boxies they have scrounged up for the event. (How well cared for, fed, watered etc? I bet they just keep them jammed together in a box for a few weeks.)
They often paint numbers etc on them. One turtle i helped across the rd last year had purple paint on him.
At the end of the event, they just set them loose there or nearby IF THAT. He said he has seen people just walk away leaving the box with turtles sitting there.
He lives in town and has seen turtles walk by his house with paint on them.
How much stress and disruption for a brief silly entertainment...

I confess i have taken 2 turtles from the wild, which i won't do no more, but at least i love them to death and don't prod them to sprint faster.


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## turtlesteve (Aug 30, 2018)

Haven't posted in a while but just happened across this thread. When I was a kid, I used to see box turtles all the time and I agree they're certainly less common now. I do not really mind occasional non-commercial collection, and can't help but feel some of the negative attitude is misdirected here. I suspect that many turtle enthusiasts grew up keeping a wild turtle or two and we should be so lucky in future generations - how many kids today could be bothered to put their phones down long enough?

Certainly we all agree that habitat loss, road kills, and (possibly) commercial collection are orders of magnitude more damaging to box turtles. Giving attention to such a minor issue strikes me as a political solution - it gives people (states, regulatory agencies) the outward appearance of taking action, without any effort required or results delivered. I don't intend to argue, but I would hate to see someone get scared off because of such strong opinions being thrown around. 

Steve


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## BloodbucketXXL (Sep 4, 2018)

I'd also like to add that there's a very good chance that seeing wild turtles at all is an indication of a problem. Take where I live and work, for example. The general area where I live has a good amount of forest and wetland areas, but in the last decade it has become increasingly fragmented as a result of development. There are still lots of wild areas around, but a housing development goes up here. A road gets put down there. Sewage lines get added somewhere, etc. All of which results in a big wilderness area turning into lots of small little lots of wilderness that are intercut with roads and parking lots. Possibly as a result of this, I saw LOTS of turtles last year (very few this year, though). About 2 thirds of those turtles were smeared across the road.

Keep in mind that I'm not going out looking for turtles. This is just me walking/driving down neighborhood streets. 

Point being, we can blame people keeping one or two turtles for the decline of turtle populations, but I suspect that in many cases, a lot of those turtles wouldn't be getting seen at all if there wasn't a bigger problem at hand. Last year I was walking along the edge of some woods and saw a large box turtle walking along the edge of the woods. I left it there, but I suspect that turtle is going to have some problems in the future. Because those "woods" that I found the turtle in are really just about a 1 acre lot of undeveloped land located right in the middle of a housing development. With a busy 4 lane highway located about 100 feet from one side of the lot. There's a very good chance that that turtle is either going to end up smeared on the road, or just show up in somebody's yard.

Which brings me to my next point. Even if most people aren't going around looking for turtles to keep, increased development increasing the likelihood that SOMEONE is eventually going to run into that turtle. And then there's the question of what to do with it. Take for example where I work. The place where I work is in the busy downtown district. It's bordered on one side by seawater, bordered on one side by a city port that is inaccessible, and bordered on the other two sides by nothing but developed land. In the past 4 years, I've found 8 turtles show up where I work. Half of them were smeared across the road. Of the other 4, I kept 2 (two baby snapping turtles). And two I relocated to other areas (a large adult yellow bellied slider, and a juvenile box turtle). Here's the thing though...I shouldn't have been seeing those turtles at all, and there are absolutely no good options for what I should do with them once I found them. You're not supposed to keep wild turtles. You're also not supposed to take wild turtles and then relocate them. So if you see a turtle and can't find out where it came from, and if leaving it where it where you found it is essentially a death sentence anyway, then what are the good options here?

I'm not saying that that's always the situation when it comes to people finding wild turtles, but I expect this situation to become a lot more common as their habitats get a lot more fragmented and isolated. I suspect that a decent number of wild turtles that were put in captivity were probably found in places where they shouldn't have been anyway. And that the people who found those turtles had no idea where they came from, and didn't just want to leave them to die. Sure, one can argue that it's best to just leave the turtle there and let it take its chances, even if it's almost certain to get smeared across the road. But in a case like that, I think the biggest issue isn't the person deciding to keep the turtle. I think the bigger issue is the turtle being in a position to get found like that in the first place.


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