# Bubbles in Tortoise Eyes



## susancarol

Here is pictures of my 10 year old redfoot with bubbles in her eye. She is not eating well and is restless. In when a bath her she tried to get out and sticks up her head. I am afraid this is do to respiratory problems.

Here is the history:

We have had three 3 tortoises for 10 years. One sulcata, one Russian, and a redfoot. Then we got another 2 year old healthy sulcata. A few weeks ago our Russian died. I believed at the time it was due to some type of respiratory infection I brought it and the redfoot to the vet along with the diseased Russian. The vet said that the redfoot was healthy and the Russian died of old age. Other vets had said in the past that the Russian was very old. The vet is a specialist for tortoises. 

Today I noticed bubbles around the eyes in the Redfoot. I have seen this in chickens when they get upper respiratory infections. No antibiotics helped the chickens. 

Has anyone every seen this. I am afraid it a mycoplasm or pneumonia.


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## Maggie Cummings

My 12 yr old Sulcata, Bob, gets them all the time. It drives me nuts, but he is eating and active and shows no signs of sickness. I am sorry your animals have died, you are going thru a very hard time right now and you have my sympathy...

Could your Redfoot be needing to nest?


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## susancarol

maggie3fan said:


> My 12 yr old Sulcata, Bob, gets them all the time. It drives me nuts, but he is eating and active and shows no signs of sickness. I am sorry your animals have died, you are going thru a very hard time right now and you have my sympathy...
> 
> Could your Redfoot be needing to nest?





I am worried that it is mycoplasm. My sister says it is normal as well. But if anyone can review the pics, I would appreciate it. In chickens bubbles in the eyes are mycoplams and upper respiratory.


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## Yvonne G

It probably means that you're not keeping the redfoot in a moist-enough habitat. You don't keep them all together do you?

Oh...and, Welcome to the forum!!


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## Scooter

Welcome to the forum. I have been told that one cause for the bubbles could be low humidity. What is your setup for her like, specifically temps and humidity?


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## susancarol

Scooter said:


> Welcome to the forum. I have been told that one cause for the bubbles could be low humidity. What is your setup for her like, specifically temps and humidity?





It is raining out so I am not worried about humity. Also, I just gave her a bath. She has been in the same location for over 10 years. Along with the Russian. It worked out very well. 
The vet tech says it is upper respiratory. My best friend who has had a Sulcata for 25 years told me the first time I took her to the vet to demand an xray.


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## Kristina

The scales of your Redfoot look like she has experienced long term dry conditions. This can really wreak havoc on them.

I do think you need to up your humidity. Now while it is raining may not be an issue, but the only time I have seen bubbles in the eyes of my tortoises is when they are too dry. A good warm soak and a wet down of the habitat clears it right up.


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## susancarol

The scales look dry because of the lense and the flash. It is a macro lense. I just bathed her.


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## Kristina

Well, I am very sorry that you are having this issue. I have Redfoots as well, and the scales on my Redfoots, who are well hydrated, do not look like that. I am afraid I can't help you further if you won't take my advice.

Good luck and I hope you sort everything else.


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## Yvonne G

Hi Susancarol:

Please listen to what we're telling you and stop making explanations and excuses. It sounds like you want us to tell you that yes, it is mycoplasma. But we're telling you that you're keeping the tortoise too dry. Please understand that raining has nothing to do with that. They need to be in a humid environment, which translates to a habitat that's too wet for your Russian. They should be separated. However, if the redfoot IS sick, my vote would be something that it caught from the Russian tortoise. Russians are notoriously "dirty" (meaning full of parasites and pathogens). But I'd be willing to bet that if you put lots of plants in the redfoots habitat and keep it watered...a LOT, you'll see that the bubbles disappear from the eyes.


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## TKCARDANDCOIN

I also think she looks way too dry.I am of the opinion that she needs her own enclosure and high, hot and humid conditions.Good luck.


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## susancarol

I can see how the scales look dry by the macro lense and the flash. The scales don't look dry in person. The humidity is ideal. I don't believe it is a humidity problem and either does the vet when he examined her. I just took a closer look and you can barely see a very tiny amount of fluid coming out the nose area when she breathes out. I think it is mycroplasm, and I am asking if anyone has seen this before or dealt with upper respiratory infections or bubbles in the eye. It is the first we have experienced this at all. I have seen bubbles in noses rarely on tortoises. The meds are always changing. i am hearing all sorts of ways of treating this.


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## Yvonne G

The only way to know for sure if your tortoise has been infected with a mycoplasma is to have a test done. I get a lot of desert tortoise in through my rescue and quite a few of them have the Gopherus mycoplasma. I can truthfully say that I've never seen bubbly eyes with the respiratory symptoms in my desert tortoises.


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## susancarol

Thanks for the input. Can you advise of the treatment. I just reviewed an article. Bubbles in eyes indicated that the nares are plugged and things are backing up. Bathing her does not help. 

Just so everyone knows, i have had this tortoise for 10 year with no problem.


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## Yvonne G

If you think the nares are plugged, you can take a squeeze bottle with saline solution in it and give some squirts up the nostrils. Don't worry about the liquid getting into the lungs, because the nares end up in the roof of the mouth, not down the throat. You can also use a toothpick and gently clean out the nares.

I wouldn't use Baytril unless you knew for sure the tortoise has an infection. Its pretty strong, it burns, and it sometimes causes the tissue at the injection site to die.


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## susancarol

I think you are right, but i tried to uplug them a few hours ago with no avail. I did the same thing with the chickens when they had bubbles in their eyes and their nares were indeed blocked. I thought baytril is bad for their digestive system. I am very worried about her. I wish it was something simple. I don't believe she is able to breathe through both of her nostrils. i know that mycroplasm is very hard to treat and with the chickens they were never cured. It becomes a chronic condition and there is now a vaccine. She is also trying to crawl out of her pen. When i bathe her, she is no sitting in the water. I am worried that this got into her lungs.


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## Yvonne G

You would surely notice it if she couldn't breathe through her nose. Tortoises don't do open mouth breathing. If their nares are plugged, they just hold their breath as long as they can, then they eventually will open their mouth and gasp. You would see that if it were happening.


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## Kristina

Long term dehydration (i.e. 10 years) will cause eye and kidney issues.

At the risk of stating the obvious, tortoises are not chickens, and I am afraid you cannot base either diagnosis or treatment on an illness that took place in a chicken. 

The only time I have personally seen bubbles in the eyes is in cases of dehydration or overheating. What are your temperatures?


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## zzzdanz

That tortoise is dehydrated beyond what a bath will fix.Get the Russian a seperate enclosure and crank up the RF's humidity...If he was mine he'ld get pedialyte as well.


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## susancarol

I have been bathing everyday. The doctor does not believe this animal is dehydrated at all. I believe one nare is blocked. We are at a high humidity right now because it is raining. The Russian died 3 weeks ago. The doctor believed it was old age and yes he was very very old. The person is doing the diagnosis is the expert DVM. I am just stating that i saw the same things in chickens and it concerns me. Incidentally, the chicken's were not breathing though their mouth either when their nare was blocked. I really wish this was just humidity. The tortoise does not have an eye disease. She is eating, but very little. I believe this is upper respiratory. If anyone is an expert, i would appreciate you help.


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## zzzdanz

You need the humidity in his enclosure high..like 80%...Rain will have no effect at all..I'm 99.9% sure he will be fine...Nothing at all to do with chickens


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## susancarol

The humidity was always over 80%. today is it higher because of the rain I have a meter and always has been. I really hope you are right that she will be fine. I believe this is a upper respiratory infection. Tomorrow she is going back to the Vet for another checkup. Just for the record, I have never seen an animal react so severely to another animals death. The two tortoises were inseparable. The picture with the marco lense and the flash makes here look old, but she is really quite beautiful and healthy looking.


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## zzzdanz

I'ld bet money on it being dehydration. If it was respiratory infection,you'ld have bubbley nose (not eyes) and possibly mouth breathing...He's dehydrated


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## susancarol

The doctor gave her an injection of antibiotics and believes that she has an upper respiratory infection and eye infection. The doctor does not believe that the tortoise is dehydrated and believe she looks great. The doctor states that there has been 100% humidity. I am still going to increase the humidity and give her daily baths. I think pedialyte is a good idea so thanks for the suggestion. Does anyone have a recipe for this. I ususally make my own, but not for tortoises. Is there a mix for tortoise that anyone knows about. 

The doctor who is a reptile expert says that he went to a tort symposium and they stated that shots can now be given in the back of the leg. I told him to inject the front. 


Also, I really appreciate everyones help.


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## Shelly

susancarol said:


> the chicken's were not breathing though their mouth either when their nare was blocked.



Were they breathing through their ears?


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## Kristina

susancarol said:


> The doctor states that there has been 100% humidity.



I am very confused by this statement.

Also, I absolutely love welcoming new members and watching our community grow, but there are other things I am confused about. You joined looking for advice. Several members (including myself) gave you advice which you then told us was incorrect, and then went ahead and took your tortoise to the vet, who you say is a "reptile expert."

You say your tortoise looks great, but I am sorry, to me, she does not. I also have a "macro lens" on my camera, and none of my Redfoots have scales that look like that. The only Redfoot that I have had that had scales that looked like that was the horribly dehydrated and pyramided 2 1/2 year old dropped off at my house this past summer.

Also, overheating can cause bubbles in the eyes, as well as dehydration. I asked several posts ago what your temperatures are, and did not get an answer.

Did the veterinarian do any sort of swab or a culture? What was he basing his diagnosis on, other than what he "felt" the problem is? And what does "The doctor states that there has been 100% humidity." mean? Has the doctor tested the humidity levels in your enclosure? What qualifies him as a "reptile expert?" What specifically is his experience with tortoises?

I also need to point out, that just because it is raining does not mean that your tortoise isn't dehydrated. How long has it been raining? Does it rain every day where you are? If it does not, then rain means nothing in terms of hydration, or long term dehydration. If your tortoise does not have access to shade or cooler temps, then that can cause dehydration even if they have water available daily.

I am not trying to pick on you, but I am confused as to what it was that you wanted from us. Instead of taking our advice, you argued, made excuses, and went to the vet anyway.

I really hope that your tortoise recovers. But I also hope that you will take some of the advice we have given, answer some questions, and let us help you.

What is your climate like? What are your temps, where is your enclosure located, and how is it set up? What kind of water source, hide, and lighting does your Redfoot have? Those are the biggest questions I would like answers to.


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## Maggie Cummings

Having just gone thru this I know that there is just one place in the US that tests for mycoplasma and the test runs close to $500. There is no cure for mycoplasma and I am wondering why this poster wishes so hard that it is that. Bob has bubbles in his eyes often and I know it is because he is kept too dry.
But I am thinking because Kristina has now pulled this girls covers she will not be back...and I am going to see if Bob's shed is at 100% humidity yet...I am hoping that the outside rain will work...


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## zzzdanz

An injection of antibiotic?..what antibiotic?..how many more shots do you need to give?


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## susancarol

If anything I have learned from this is that I am going to take my tortoises to the vet once a year. This is the first time I took this animal to the vet. He states that it is mycroplasm and eye infection. I had him swab the eyes and culture it since we have other animals. I have to have my sister give a shot every three days. The tortoise is making a complete turn around. I think i made the right choice in the animals best interest.


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## zzzdanz

I'm confused.


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## Shelly

susancarol said:


> If anything I have learned from this is that I am going to take my tortoises to the vet once a year.



Why?


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## Yvonne G

You have to send of a sample of the tortoise's blood to test for mycoplasma. A vet can't test for it in his office. If I'm remembering correctly, you have to send your sample to Florida for the test. There's just no way in heck your vet "knows" that your tortoise has mycoplasma.


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## zzzdanz

To many things not adding up in this thread.


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## Kristina

Not to be overly harsh, but the #1 thing I have learned from this thread is not to trust your vet.


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## Redfoot NERD

*Macro pics* - is this close enough? -







.. clear nares?

Eyes - ( shown nesting in proper humidity ) -






See any difference susancarol?

NERD

BTW.. ask your Vet. how many "hands-on" years of experience with REDFOOT tortoises does he have? How many raised from hatchlings, bred, hatched and raised again to sub-adults?


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## Tom

I'm still concerned about the mixing of different species from the beginning of this thread. It seems very very very unlikely that a russian died of old age. More likely it died of parasites due to the stress of mixed company or a "bug" it caught from a tort from a different continent. Has your experienced tort vet told you that different species shouldn't be mixed?

BTW, my adult male sulcatas occasionally get the bubbles in the eye too, but I've never been able to figure out why. Its always dry too dry here, it can happen any time of the year, doesn't seem to be related to a particular food item or supplement, doesn't seem related their occasional soaks... The bubbles just appear once in a great while and then go away.





Susan, we all want to help you. We all want to help everyone with a tortoise, really. But I must admit you have seemed a bit evasive. Here are some questions that would really help us to help you:
1. What are your 4 temps? Cool side, warm side, basking spot and night? Or are they outdoors?
2. What is the humidity percentage in the various parts of your enclosure and how are you measuring that?
3. What part of the country do you live in? This will give us an idea of your climate. Advice for Maggie in the PNW might be very different than for me in the CA desert, for example.
4. Who is your vet? We might recognize the name as a well known tortoise vet and that would carry a lot of weight with us.

Glad to hear your tort is doing better, but I'd still like to solve these mysteries AND the mystery of why he got sick in the first place. How about some more pics with different lighting to show us what you mean by how good he looks. How about pics of the enclosure and cagemate? We often find helpful clues in photos.

Hope you stick around. I view this as a learning experience for me, and hopefully you'll be able to learn some stuff here too.


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## Yvonne G

Hi Susancarol:

This is a GREAT opportunity for you to look at the difference between a well-hydrated tortoise that is living in humid conditions (the macro pictures of Terry's tortoises in post #35), then jump back to your picture. You can plainly see the difference between an extremely DRY redfoot head (yours) and a redfoot that has been kept in humid conditions (Terry's).

The people on this forum really know their stuff. Please don't discount them.

After going back and forth between Susancarol's picture and Terry's picture I'm wondering if Susancarol's tortoise really is a redfoot.


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## susancarol

I can only convey what the doctor states because he is the expert and a herpetologist. He treats all the ancients in our state. We are all here just hobbyist. The tortoise was put on antibiotics and it worked. I asked the doctor and he says the samples only get shipped to one place in the usa. He can not say it is conclusively Mycolplasm with out further test, but speculates. He does not believe that the tortoise is dehydrated, but I have the humidity over 90% just to be sure. Just how does the mechanism for bubble formation in the eyes form from dehydration, I don't understand this. It will from from snot and when a nare is blocked. I still believe this one is caused by infection. The doctor called me and states knowing what bug it is, is a mute point. My animal does not have pyramiding either. I take the word of the good doctor. Just so you know, good doctors know exactly what it is without any tests. there is another thread much the same as this one.He also went to the vet and the vet put the animal on baytril due to a bug. Mine also says there is an eye infection. I wish I found this thread. I would have went to the doctor sooner:

Greek wheezing, bubble eye 

So the point is I am really happy that the animal responded to the antibiotic.

Does anyone have any experience with this. The results came back positive. From what I understand it is treatable, but not curable. I am really upset. 

Mycoplasma qPCR
Results
D10120-01 Carol Swab 09-Dec-2010 Positive


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## Redfoot NERD

Yes I do.. in G. elegans.. aka Indian Star tortoises. The only way a tortoise can have Mycoplasma is from contact with another infected animal or transferred by handling an infected animal and then handling another one without proper disinfection.

The infection is similar to HIV in that it can lay dormant for a period of time and then if a slightest change occurs in their environment it can/will take the host down! It can happen in a matter of 2 days.
*
I have never heard of Mycoplasma in the redfoot community. *

Terry K


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## Laura

Could this redfoot have gotten it from the Russian that died? 
Terry, When you say 'I have never heard of Mycoplasma in the redfoot community' do you mean that redfoots just dont get it? Are somehow immune to it? 
Are there different strains? Could a test be a false positive? 
What kind of precautions does the OP need to take now to keep other torts safe?


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## Redfoot NERD

Laura said:


> Could this redfoot have gotten it from the Russian that died?
> Terry, When you say 'I have never heard of Mycoplasma in the redfoot community' do you mean that redfoots just dont get it? Are somehow immune to it?
> Are there different strains? Could a test be a false positive?
> What kind of precautions does the OP need to take now to keep other torts safe?



IF this is in fact myco.. then absolutely! I've just never heard of anyone.. other than "Indian Star" keepers and Mediterranean keepers.. that have had to deal with this type of virus with redfoots! - doesn't mean this could be a first.

ANOTHER example of what can/could/will happen with species from different continents that are mixed or kept within close contact.. *cross-contamination! * Do a Google on Mycoplasma.. it's deadly

Redfoot tortoises are tough "amongst" themselves. One has to really be 'out-of-order' to kill one. Redfoot tortoise needs are about the easiest of most tortoises that are kept today ( they are so tolerant )..... still - like keeping any species - each has their own specific needs. DON'T MIX THEM!!! 

Hope this scares everybody to be more attentive to husbandry practices!!!!

Terry K


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