# Coco coir; issues with water retention



## KimandKarasi (May 20, 2012)

Put three layers in my enclosure that I think I may have possibly done wrong... Bottom layer is cypress, less than half an inch, second layer is coco husk (the chunkier kind) maybe an inch or a bit more, and the top layer is loose coco fiber I got from the pet store about 2 inches. I planted petunias, Bermuda grass (still seedlings for now), a small hibiscus bush, and some sedum (hens and chicks), and transplanted some clover, which I don't think is doing so well due to my issue. The problem is that coco fiber will not soak in when I water it, the whole top will look watered and when I touch it the top layer flaps off revealing that no water got through. Should I have soaked it all before I put it in? I'm not sure what to do, everything is planted..


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## wellington (May 20, 2012)

I use only coconut coir. I did find that when I used a single hole watering can, the water seem to puddle. When I switched to a watering can that has lots of wholes in the spout, it soaked in right away. Not sure if that will help or not.


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## ascott (May 20, 2012)

I believe you may have air to root issues along with mold if you have a soil type product on bottom then chunky stuff then covered with soil type on top....hmmmm? Hate to say it but I would find a way for the chunky stuff to not be there ..lol...and add the finely process peat moss to the top at about three inches over the other soil type substrate....the peat moss works really well on moisture retention...but have to add water slowly initially....

Wait and see what the others recommend as some options....


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## KimandKarasi (May 20, 2012)

ascott said:


> I believe you may have air to root issues along with mold if you have a soil type product on bottom then chunky stuff then covered with soil type on top....hmmmm? Hate to say it but I would find a way for the chunky stuff to not be there ..lol...and add the finely process peat moss to the top at about three inches over the other soil type substrate....the peat moss works really well on moisture retention...but have to add water slowly initially....
> 
> Wait and see what the others recommend as some options....



I put the chunky stuff on bottom thinking it would soak more of what the top didnt retain, but if I'm wrong I guess I can redo the enclosure somehow... I actually didnt know cyperss mulch was considered a soil type product  excuse my ignorance... The coconut husk was bought as a "soil type substance" i believe, I got it from a hydroponic store... its coco coir, just with bigger pieces of husk mixed in...
Thank you wellington and ascott!


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## EKLC (May 20, 2012)

There won't be enough nutrients for the plants to grow in coir


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## ascott (May 20, 2012)

I was thinking the coco husk is chunky right? And they cypress mulch is kinda stringy ish? . I would just maybe try to take the chunky stuff away....and maybe add in some peat moss? ???

Also...wait around for the others that perhaps use the material you are...they may have alternative solutions to your water retention desires and plant thriving...you know?


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## Tom (May 20, 2012)

Seems to me that you could just pull some of the top layer out of the way and dump some water into the lower level. You get enough water down there and it should wick upward into the coir. That and spraying the top layer should do the trick.


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## KimandKarasi (May 20, 2012)

but is EKLC right? is there not enough nutrients in the coir to sustain plants? My mom said this, but ive heard of sevral people using it before....


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## wellington (May 21, 2012)

EKLC said:


> There won't be enough nutrients for the plants to grow in coir



Actually, I had grass, clover and other weeds growing in my coir. Didn't try any "plants" like flowers, etc, but the above did good.


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## GeoTerraTestudo (May 21, 2012)

KimandKarasi said:


> but is EKLC right? is there not enough nutrients in the coir to sustain plants? My mom said this, but ive heard of sevral people using it before....



That's correct. Plants need true soil to grow in. Coco coir may have a texture similar to soil, and it also holds moisture. However, true soil contains many more nutrients and minerals, as well as more readily usable forms of carbon.

People may add a woody mulch over soil, which is useful because it helps keep the soil moist underneath. However, if you want to grow plants, you still real soil.

For the purposes of having a good substrate, you don't need three different layers (cypress mulch/coco husk/coco coir). I use just 100% coco coir, myself.


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## KimandKarasi (May 21, 2012)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> That's correct. Plants need true soil to grow in. Coco coir may have a texture similar to soil, and it also holds moisture. However, true soil contains many more nutrients and minerals, as well as more readily usable forms of carbon.
> 
> People may add a woody mulch over soil, which is useful because it helps keep the soil moist underneath. However, if you want to grow plants, you still real soil.
> 
> For the purposes of having a good substrate, you don't need three different layers (cypress mulch/coco husk/coco coir). I use just 100% coco coir, myself.



But I take it you don't grow plants in your enclosure? So should I shovel all that back out and refill it with organic soil?


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## Utah Lynn (May 21, 2012)

Would it be feasable to just put your plants in pots of soil?


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## EricIvins (May 21, 2012)

It really needs to be mixed and tumbled a few times to get the coir to rehydrate itself.......Once it rehydrates, any retention issues will go away.......Simply spraying with water really doesn't get the job done.......


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## KimandKarasi (May 21, 2012)

EricIvins said:


> It really needs to be mixed and tumbled a few times to get the coir to rehydrate itself.......Once it rehydrates, any retention issues will go away.......Simply spraying with water really doesn't get the job done.......



I found that, like a person said earlier, using the watering can for some reason got the water to soak right in! And Utah Lynn, I could do that, but I thought the roots of the plants would get too crowded in the pots over time...  if this method is too much of an impossibility, I guess I will resort to pots, but I was really hoping to achieve the natural look..


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## GeoTerraTestudo (May 21, 2012)

KimandKarasi said:


> But I take it you don't grow plants in your enclosure? So should I shovel all that back out and refill it with organic soil?



Last summer, I used soil as the substrate in my tortoises' enclosures and sewed seeds in them. I ran into two problems:

1) Although the plants grew, fungus also grew, which attracted gnats.
2) The tortoises (especially the female) ate the plants rather quickly. Although I did want them to have fresh food, the plants did not last very long.

Ever since then, I have used 100% coco coir as the substrate, because it is soil-like, but much cleaner. Other than a half-log, water dish, and food dish, I keep my tortoises' pens clear. To grow plants, I sew seeds in pots and planters and keep them outside. Once they're mature enough, I will harvest them to feed to the tortoises.

Some people like plants to be in their tortoises' enclosures, not so much as food, but for landscaping. What works for many people is to use a clean substrate (like coco coir), but put potted plants in the pen with the tortoises. That way, the plants get what they need, and the tortoises have what they need, too. This can be problematic, however, since tortoises often like to dig for shelter, and so they may overturn the potted plants, spilling soil into the pen, and even uprooting the plant. It seems like those who use heavier pots, and those who put rocks around the pot, tend to have better luck.


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## KimandKarasi (May 21, 2012)

One person said I could use plant food so long as it's completely organic and such.. Would this be a good food to use in the coir? I'll try to remover all chunks


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## GeoTerraTestudo (May 21, 2012)

KimandKarasi said:


> One person said I could use plant food so long as it's completely organic and such.. Would this be a good food to use in the coir? I'll try to remover all chunks



Plant food added to coco coir is no substitute for good soil. The reason is that, in addition to retaining water, soil also consists of humus and minerals. Even if you add plant food, the substrate would still lack trace elements that plants need for their metabolism. It would be a little like a human subsisting only on a diet of French fries: plenty of the major nutrients, but none of the still-important rare ones.

Besides, I don't know what that stuff would do to a tortoise. I would think that all the nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium might irritate their skin, shell, or eyes. And if they accidentally ingest it, I think that could pose a health hazard, too.


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## KimandKarasi (May 21, 2012)

GeoTerraTestudo said:


> Plant food added to coco coir is no substitute for good soil. The reason is that, in addition to retaining water, soil also consists of humus and minerals. Even if you add plant food, the substrate would still lack trace elements that plants need for their metabolism. It would be a little like a human subsisting only on a diet of French fries: plenty of the major nutrients, but none of the still-important rare ones.
> 
> Besides, I don't know what that stuff would do to a tortoise. I would think that all the nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium might irritate their skin, shell, or eyes. And if they accidentally ingest it, I think that could pose a health hazard, too.



Ok, so I can have organic soil, , but no nutrients whatsoever... I'm just trying to get this straight, I don't want to hurt my turtle I just want to do this right..


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## GeoTerraTestudo (May 21, 2012)

KimandKarasi said:


> Ok, so I can have organic soil, , but no nutrients whatsoever... I'm just trying to get this straight, I don't want to hurt my turtle I just want to do this right..



Yes, you can use potting soil or top soil, since neither one has perlite or vermiculite in it (many a pet turtle or lizard has had gut impaction from ingesting these). I would not add any fertilizers, since they could cause problems for the tortoises if they get into the eyes or nose. Nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium are not poisons per se, since both plants and animals need some amounts of these macronutrients in their diet (including tortoises and humans). However, the concentrations of these fertilizers are probably too high in plant food, and could irritate the skin or membranes of animals if exposed for too long.

Most plants should be able to grow in potting soil or top soil pretty well. Perhaps not as spectacularly as in a pot all by itself or outdoors, but then, this is a tortoise pen, not a garden.

Again, I myself have abandoned using soils as substrates in tortoise pens, due to the pests that can develop in them. However, others here do like soil for substrate, so perhaps it will work for you.


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## KimandKarasi (May 23, 2012)

Again I may have messed up.. I got organic soil, but didnt realize it was garden soil, not potting soil... Would that affect anything? It doesn't have perlite, but I still wasn't sure... She seemed happy when she was in there.  I put moss over it that I bought from the petstore because I was worried.. Here's a few pics, and by the end of today the two enclosures you see should have a ramp going between them to where she has access to all that space!


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## GeoTerraTestudo (May 23, 2012)

As long as it doesn't have perlite or vermiculite, it should be fine.


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