# Galapagos,Aldabra, and Even Sulcatas!



## tortadise (Jan 22, 2013)

Recently I have made numerous visits to owners properties, houses, or facilities to the owners request in relocating their tortoise. My opinion on the matter is these large species of tortoises that I inquire about relinquishment are just not well off. Is it just me being too picky or judgmental in the care of these Giant species. Specifically the 3 species in the title. Naturally they are both grazers. Galapagos, Aldabras, and Sulcatas walk a great deal in the wild. Well this walking and grazing is crucial to their muscle development, cardiovascular system, and over all well being of health to the animals future. I feel that the Giant species of tortoises are somewhat in a threatened future in captive populations. 

Lets take Galapagos, and Aldabras of the 3 biggens. These animals have way more breeding requirements than many would think. Ive talked a lot with Greg(Aldabraman) in his program of Aldabras. He has it on target for what this species requires. Its not only adequate space, but safety, food sources, water sources, and proper previous care to a lot his group so successful. They finally are happy and content. So many zoos fail at Galapagos, and Aldabra breeding. Even a lot of their animals are dying in the years of 30 to 40s which is a fraction of their life span. Does anyone else feel it is not right for these giants to be sold to anyone. I think we underestimate the cognitive behavior of these giants.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 22, 2013)

Kelly, this echoes many concerns for elephants in captivity too. They are unique, both the giant torts and the ellys. Some zoos and private folks got it figured out some don't. Some of the best elly management is not in zoos. It would seem that there are a few private folks that also surpass zoos on the giant torts too.

If you could implement some plan - what would it be?

Will


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## sibi (Jan 22, 2013)

I totally agree with you; however, human nature being what it is, will never ban acquisition of these magnificent creatures. I have been torn by the idea that my sullies don't walk and graze like they were born to do. Not every breeder raise their animals like Greg, and certainly not everyone owning torts raise them in ideal conditions. I guess if a particular species is on the brink of extinction, owning one may be illegal. Barring that, it will only be a desire or wish.


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## tortadise (Jan 22, 2013)

I totally aggree on that realm of species too. Rhinos as well. It just seems to me that zoos even private individuals just think its so easy. I looked at a pair of 18 year olds to come to my facility and the female couldnt even walk, had no grass to graze on. 220 pound male(which is small for 18 years old) and the guy wanted 15k for them. I said look these animals might not even make it under these conditions. For the best of the animal they need proper care. Ive been to 4 peoples places in the past few months for some animals for my large exhibit I built solely for these giant species. I had kinda had enough of the lack in knowledge and proper husbandry, that was sired off greed and selfishness of the keepers.

In the zoo realm. I think when most the animals were obtained 60's-late 80's the lack of knowledge and husbandry requirements were overlooked heavily. I feel just now we as conservationist, scientist, curators, and even hobbyist are now figuring more out about chelonians. Specifically the large species. Tulsa Zoo just sent their male Galapagos to New York, because the female wouldn't lay. Well they are overlooking some major criteria in that species requirements to reproduce and thrive.

In terms of an implementation to address these items. I think its going to be hard to just send all of these torts, elephants, rhinos, etc.. from zoo to zoo. But to initiate a combined effort amongst private and public sectors to organizations that can appropriate such housing requirements needed. I know its very very fare fetched to becoming a reality in doing such. But somehow AZA, AAZ, USFW, and USDA need to create a committee and seek out a way to achieve a positive progress of conservation. Perhaps strict the codes and laws zoos and keepers should abide by. The problem with that though is manpower and finances. 

Behler has shown a good accord to this. Many zoos lacking success in species propagation have been given to Behler and in a much more suitable environment and among more intellectual personnel pertaining to that certain species. So my initial thought would be. More millionaires to help the cause, and staff with a true knowledge and fundamental resources to execute the proper necessities for that species.




sibi said:


> I totally agree with you; however, human nature being what it is, will never ban acquisition of these magnificent creatures. I have been torn by the idea that my sullies don't walk and graze like they were born to do. Not every breeder raise their animals like Greg, and certainly not everyone owning torts raise them in ideal conditions. I guess if a particular species is on the brink of extinction, owning one may be illegal. Barring that, it will only be a desire or wish.



Thats the thing. The directors, curators, keepers I talk to at zoos that are successful have the knowledge and understand the depth of what these giant species need to be "happy". Happiness can unfold into so many different levels with these guys. Im not saying make it illegal by any means. Just more stringent. A heavily pyramided Aldabra or Galapagos will never be able to breed. The design in the concavity of the males plastron needs to fit like a puzzle piece over the females carapace, Which needs to be smooth. All these aldabras that toucan jungle sells, are more than likely going to be seriously ill years to come maybe even dead. IF the buyer is not savvy and cannot provide the necessities it needs. I do think price of these animals being high does help with demand as well.

I am definitely not saying anyone that owns one shouldn't have one. I just keep seeing them in the wrong care and its waaaay more suitable than most CR ads, with knowledgeable tortoise people at that too.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 22, 2013)

Yeah, Rhinos, at the risk of going off species, but in topic, there are more white rhinos in Texas than Africa, cause cattlemen think they are cool and do it well. I don't know the crossover for giant torts, but maybe there is something in able people thinking they are cool, not whoever it is that ended up with those torts you saw on your trip. Will


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## EKLC (Jan 22, 2013)

Most zoos will tell you they are doing the best they can with the little funding they have to work with. Still, I always see simple fixes that never get through the zoo bureaucracy. For instance, most zoos seem to feed all of their tortoises platters of kale, romaine, apples, mazuri, and carrots. Would it really be that much of a stretch to throw some green hay in there?

Zoos usually have rigorous procedures for safety and cleanliness, but they are pretty lackluster on the diet and habitat front IMO. I think there is so much pressure to get everything done each day, that there is no time for anyone to take care of the details. 

In any field, very few people actually go out of their way to learn more about what they do. Most people are perfectly satisfied with whatever information or misinformation they take in while going about their daily business. So if your "reptile expert" is stuck in the 70's, that's going to hurt the zoo.


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## Kapidolo Farms (Jan 23, 2013)

EKLC, I hate that I agree with you on that profusion of work-a-day folks who don't invest themselves. I have had the good opportunity to work with some curators who were very much NOT that. I have worked alongside many who ARE that though. Marketing people and the "amusement" of a zoo have crawled into the main mission of zoos now, they do what they can to get the $$. The not-for-profit has gone from an ideology to a tax dodge, they are all about profit. Not all, but many zoos, have gone on to have a separate associated entity, that runs their conservation and research interest, this way their is less "What the people of this city want" and more of the original zoo as ark and conservation venue. But it's sorta hard, especially in the US where science literacy is low. 

When I toured some zoos in Russia earlier this year, I saw keepers harvesting the grasses and weeds, drying them on A frame racks, for winter feeding. I saw super detailed small things being done for the animals. The enclosures themselves are from the cast iron bars era, but the keepers seemed to be so dedicated. I spoke with several, it's all them, and not support from the bureaucracy in place. 

I did not see any giant torts there, but did see many animals in old horrible enclosures getting great care, go figure? 

There are a few Zoos here in the US like that. It has been several years since I was there, but the Reptile house at Knoxville had seriously dedicated keepers. Others too. But for the most part you are right about the ethic that you describe.

My all time most disliked phrase in any job is "that's the way we always done-it" or "we tried that about 17 years ago, it didn't work". Oh well, what to do?

There are some good ones out there, zoos and privates, so that has to be the focus of the energy put into the future.

Will


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## EKLC (Jan 24, 2013)

Will said:


> EKLC, I hate that I agree with you on that profusion of work-a-day folks who don't invest themselves. I have had the good opportunity to work with some curators who were very much NOT that. I have worked alongside many who ARE that though. Marketing people and the "amusement" of a zoo have crawled into the main mission of zoos now, they do what they can to get the $$. The not-for-profit has gone from an ideology to a tax dodge, they are all about profit. Not all, but many zoos, have gone on to have a separate associated entity, that runs their conservation and research interest, this way their is less "What the people of this city want" and more of the original zoo as ark and conservation venue. But it's sorta hard, especially in the US where science literacy is low.
> 
> When I toured some zoos in Russia earlier this year, I saw keepers harvesting the grasses and weeds, drying them on A frame racks, for winter feeding. I saw super detailed small things being done for the animals. The enclosures themselves are from the cast iron bars era, but the keepers seemed to be so dedicated. I spoke with several, it's all them, and not support from the bureaucracy in place.
> 
> ...



I could see how a russian zoo would be a better place for something as simple as feeding grass. In some ways American zoos are over-regulated, in the sense that little tweaks that could really improve husbandry often don't happen because the keepers don't have sufficient authority. I'd liken it to a school lunch; not healthy, but nothing that will get anyone in trouble. 

Most zoos I have been to have dedicated keepers and claim a focus on education. Unfortunately, dedicated does not mean they have the common sense to learn something about where an animal lives and what it eats. I'm a supporter of zoos though, just hate to see something so simple and stupid that the keepers won't or can't fix.


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