# Frank is Sick!



## Ashmash (Jul 1, 2011)

Frank is a desert tortoise that we got 2 years ago from a local lady. Frank is about 25-30 years old and has had many owners and a bad diet almost his whole life. 

When we got him he seemed healthy until yesterday. I noticed that his neck was sunk back into his shell and he seemed slightly slower than normal, but he ate just fine. Then today I brought his out to graze and he did this weird thing where he stuck his head way out opened his mouth wide and made a strange coughing noise. His nose is clear, his mouth is clear, and his eyes seem fine. Also, today his neck wasn't sunken in but the soft tissue around the top of his legs seem almost swollen. He had peed and it was really white, but very small.

I called a reptile vet and she said it could either be pneumonia or a gallstone. What do you guys think? How can I make poor Frank feel better? I live at least an hour away from any reptile vets, but I am looking for the best one to go to.

Oh, and when he coughed nothing came up. I could look all the way down his throat and didnt see anything.


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## Yvonne G (Jul 1, 2011)

Hi Ashlee:

I don't know about a gall stone (or stone of any kind...do tortoises have a gall bladder?), but the open mouth and cough surely does sound like a respiratory infection. The swelling around the legs is fluid build up. Where are you?


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## Ashmash (Jul 1, 2011)

Springville CA. Do you think it could be from all the weird weather changes lately?


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## Shelly (Jul 1, 2011)

Ashmash said:


> Springville CA. Do you think it could be from all the weird weather changes lately?



Seriously doubt it.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jul 1, 2011)

If I had a tortoise that I really loved get sick I would take him to the Vet right away no matter how far away they were. It sounds like he has developed an upper respiratory infection. If that drops into his lower lobes it's pneumonia. That is very serious stuff. He needs to be on an antibiotic. If he were mine I would be getting him on an antibiotic today. The longer you wait the more serious it becomes. If you take him to a Vet today and he gets put on an antibiotic right away he will have what is basically a cold. Easy to treat and easier to recover. If you wait until next week to take him to the Vet and get him on an antibiotic he is sicker and it takes longer to make him well, if he gets well. 

My point is if you take him now he is easier to treat and has a better chance of recovery. If you wait until next week he is sicker and it takes longer to make him better and maybe he doesn't get better...


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## Ashmash (Jul 1, 2011)

> Seriously doubt it.



Well then would you mind explaining what might have caused his infection? Our temps here went from 106 to 78 within 3 or so days. 

What causes these infections so I can prevent future ones? 

Thanks for the advice.


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## Maggie Cummings (Jul 1, 2011)

You can't. You can't prevent your kids from getting colds, and you can't prevent your tortoises from getting sick. Sometimes they just get sick. Maybe the weather did cause him to feel bad. That's a good drop in the temp. But is he still sick? Was he sick for a while or did he just feel bad for the first day the temperature dropped? Did you take him to the Vet? Did the vet say he has an URTI? Do you know what he is sick with? Is he still sick? How is he acting now?


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## DesertGrandma (Jul 1, 2011)

There is a list on this forum of vets that see tortoises. You can check it out by State and find one near you. Good luck. I hope he will be okay.


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## Torty Mom (Jul 1, 2011)

I love Springville, your town is soooooo cute!!! When we go to the mountains we always stop for a snack there!! 

If you need a name of a vet in Bakersfield I can refer one to you. I know Porterville is closer, I have a friend that lives there I can ask her who she uses if you would like. 

How often do you soak Frank?


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## ascott (Jul 1, 2011)

I know turtles have gall bladders....I wonder if Frank has had any other symptoms that would suggest URTI? you said that you had a significant temp drop where you live that would have been at the time you said he did the stretch yawn? A stretch and a yawn is not a sure fire sign of URTI (I know people will jump me for that statement, but, I believe we do the death watch too much when our little guys stretch, yawn, cough if they have food crammed in their throats while grazing, sleep a little longer, pace a little more, do the dead tortoise sleep pose)...sometimes I think me want to take a day or two and really observe our guys...I think we may notice something today we did not yesterday and take that and fret...when maybe we should watch tomorrow and see what they do....I am an advocate that we can pester our guys too much, stress has also been a HUGE factor in URTI (there are studies from early days of this disease that strongly indicate this) and not simply exposure to other infected tortoise. 

If your guy is truly showing a pattern of illness (likely he has been sick for sometime before we are able to notice the outward symptoms, they "live slow, they die slow" phrase is one that I have seen as a descriptive to point out that there has been illness that is not outward once we take notice....so, if you feel your guy is "sick" and you have to question by your observation, then for goodness sake take him to the vet, but if he just stretched and yawned (did his back legs stretch out too like he was tortoise flying?) I would keep an eye on him for a day or so. Now with this said, this is what I would do and am in no way a vet.  ...


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## Ashmash (Jul 2, 2011)

His back legs did not stretch out like he was flying. Only his head. I observed him for a while later today and no more coughing. I will spend sometime tomorrow and see if he starts again. He is eating fine. He is moving fine. The cough and the sunken, then swollen neck/front leg area kind of freaked me out. I have every intention of taking him to the vet, but I have the same philosophy as Ascott. There are no other tortoises that he could come into contact with, but the temps here have been crazy and Frank's burrow was recently caved in by gophers (a month or 2 ago) so that could possibly be stressing him. He does have other shelter, but Im sure he doesn't like it as much as his burrow. 

Ascott, you mentioned something about food down their throats? When I noticed Frank coughing he had a long piece of grass in his mouth, so I pulled it out, but he continued to cough. Could this affect anything? I just want to look at all the possibilities.


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## ascott (Jul 2, 2011)

My only concern with what you have described is the "sunken in" detail you gave....do you give him soaks from time to time? or, do you have a constant source of water for him that allows him to self soak? 

"swollen neck/leg" area..do you mean like a plump reserve of fat type or do you mean a pressure filled look in those areas...where the skin is stretched totally smooth...like pressure from within?

"coughing", well, when a tortoise is affected with URTI it does not only sit around coughing, what I mean is there are other symptoms that would be present that would be more consistent, white to yellow mucus from the nose area--a crackling sound when they breathe--lethargic ---for periods of time, general loss of appetite----just no "zest for life" type of persona.

"destroyed burrow", well this can really **** off a CDT...really! They can not "relax" if your guy is a burrower then that is what he is, I have two that have dug their own burrows, but one who demands to have one...and does. Once he was finished he is "relaxed". Stress can cause alot of issues, you know. 

Finally, I have a real problem (loath) with a vets office that will (without seeing him in person that is) throw out "things" that are likely wrong with our CDT's....ugh! Vets are a valuable, viable resource when needed and to get a really good rep vet is priceless...

May I please see a pic of Frank, as close up as possible to his yummy little face, a pic of his profile and a top view? May I please see a pic of his "other shelter"....if you don't mind sharing that is


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## Ashmash (Jul 2, 2011)

Frank has a cement mixing pan that's about 8 inches deep, 2' long and 1 1/2' wide. It has rocks on one end to create and entrance and I see him drink from it frequently, plus I put him in it to make sure he gets water. I shower him with the hose aswell. 

The first day Franks skin was sunk back, then yesterday it was puffed out. I haven't checked today, I will in just a bit. 

I will get some picture soon!

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Where-Frank-lives#axzz1QsvHtbuF


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## ascott (Jul 2, 2011)

Awesome space....so very cool ! Hey, in the pic of Frank (and he is handsome by the way) I see some yellow foxtail...I am always trying to pull as much of it out as possible (sometimes I think why bother since there is so much blanketed here in the high desert, but) it is possible that Frank simply had some stuck in his throat...hence the coughing to try to get it up, or down. 

I think that you are providing a great space her, fantastic! What do you feed him to supplement his free grazing? Not that you would have to, but you said it use to be a goat pen, I know from my studies that an area that was used by goats and grazed down can sometime lack the natural weed cover that would be there if no goats had grazed....so I agree with the others, plant, plant, plant  

I think you may have a wee little bit of space for a tree or two or three ......or thirty 

You said that his water source is 8" deep? many inches of that height do you actually fill it to (not over his "half" way point  ?) 

Here is a site that is handy when you are at the nursery purchasing plants for his yard:
www.thetortoisetable.com
I believe it is even here on the forum somewhere, actually used it this am when I was out purchasing two red seedless grapevines and Petunias...ooooo, you could certainly plant lots of grapevines in that beautiful space 

Well dear, I think you have received some advice from some great sources here and enjoy him, Desert Tortoise are truly a fascinating and funny species....

ooops....I did not mean "her" in the start of the second paragraph....I know we are talking about Frank ....LOL


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## Torty Mom (Jul 2, 2011)

Just wondering how Frank is doing today?


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## Ashmash (Jul 2, 2011)

ascott said:


> Awesome space....so very cool ! Hey, in the pic of Frank (and he is handsome by the way) I see some yellow foxtail...I am always trying to pull as much of it out as possible (sometimes I think why bother since there is so much blanketed here in the high desert, but) it is possible that Frank simply had some stuck in his throat...hence the coughing to try to get it up, or down.
> 
> I think that you are providing a great space her, fantastic! What do you feed him to supplement his free grazing? Not that you would have to, but you said it use to be a goat pen, I know from my studies that an area that was used by goats and grazed down can sometime lack the natural weed cover that would be there if no goats had grazed....so I agree with the others, plant, plant, plant
> 
> ...





Yes, it is possible for a fox tail to have caused the coughing. I tried to look and see but didnt see anything. Doesn't mean there wasn't though!

Frank gets squash, grape leaves, grass, and kitchen veggie scraps. I just ordered desert tortoise seed mix and desert grass seed mixes for him. 

I fill the water dish to the top, but with his rocks and bricks he only gets his front feet in and sticks his whold head under what he gets a drink. He also knows how to get in and out by himself. I have watched him quite a few times.

He seems to be feeling a lot better today! No more coughing, he was eating and I got some good pictures!

















That is my,



size 7 women's shoe, foot for size comparison!


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## Torty Mom (Jul 2, 2011)

Well isn't he handsome!!! Cute shoe too!  What part are you talking about that was sunken in? Is he wet in the pictures he looks shiney!


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## Ashmash (Jul 2, 2011)

Yes I was taking pictures while dodging the sprinkler... There was a lot of running around on my part! Haha

I was talking about his neck. Does it look too far back to you? Or have I been over reacting?


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## Torty Mom (Jul 2, 2011)

Are you talking about picture #1?


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## Ashmash (Jul 2, 2011)

Yes. 1, 6, and 7.


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## ascott (Jul 2, 2011)

He is handsome alright! So when I look at the pics what I immediately think of is he is just underweight ....which is a fun thing to fix  

I have attached a pic here of my old man Humphry....I attach it for comparison as Humphry appears to be similar in size to Frank....when Humphry came into my care he was underweight and his front legs/neck area was thin like Franks....

So, my suggestion would be to get him big piles of dandelions...rose petals and other stuff you have noticed he love and let him eat until he can't eat anymore...then give him a grand ole soak after


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## Torty Mom (Jul 3, 2011)

Do you have any Mazuri tortoise food? It will help him put on some weight! I bet that is what it is, he looks skinny, no fat pockets.


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## Ashmash (Jul 3, 2011)

Ok, thank you! I will fatten him up! He loves squash and grape leaves. And grass! So there's nothing sunken in?


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## ascott (Jul 3, 2011)

Sunken in is not what I see, I see thin, but you did say in the beginning that he survived before you on a poor diet, so I would say underweight...

Sounds good! May I suggest that you perhaps plant some dandelion seeds and some herrons bill if it does not come as part of the tortoise seed you have ordered? these are really good "staples" for these guys....and lots of soaks where his entire body sets in the warm water up to his gular horn...

Frank is so cute


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## froghaven5 (Jul 3, 2011)

Great pictures of Frank!


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## ascott (Jul 3, 2011)

Hi....just one more observation if you will. 

In the photos where you show Franks cool hide  I noticed there is a pine tree relatively close, I wonder if you rake up the pine needles often? 

Conifers (pine trees) drop their needles often, which build up layer upon layer...pines needles can have negative health affects as they carry with them some poisonous attributes. All pine trees produce needles and those needles are poisonous if ingested in large quantities. They contain resins, which can produce toxic reactions in animals. Turpentine and Camphor Oil are derived from the pine.

Now, I did not say that so you go and hurt your tree! Pine trees are awesome! Just thought I would mention in the event you don't already rake up the fallen needles. As when a tortoise graze they can ingest alot of things


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## Ashmash (Jul 3, 2011)

I do rake them up, but I didn't know that they were toxic to him. I just raked them because I didn't want him to get poked! Now I have a better reason! 









He here is eating his lunch today.


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## ascott (Jul 3, 2011)

Yummy! He is enjoying


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## Laura (Jul 3, 2011)

his eyes look SO big in those sprinkler pics! forrest tort!


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## ascott (Jul 3, 2011)

to better see you with darling


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