# do torts feel stress?security?



## dolfanjack (Jul 29, 2010)

I created another topic about hides and are they needed, most of the answers concerned stress and security as the major reason they should have hides. I believe "stress" is a human condition, and we have stress because we can think of the future and what may happen. I may be stressed because I can't pay my utilities and they may be turned off. I don't believe a tortoise stresses that if he/she goes out to feed it might rain and he might not find a hide to wait out the weather. A tortoise has no concept of the future, they live minute to minute so can't be stressed. What does security mean for a Tortoise? They have instints not feelings. A tortoise isn't going to go 'phew I found a hole, now i'm not going to be eaten'. Am I wrong?


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## spikethebest (Jul 29, 2010)

when tortoises are stressed, or scared, they very much show it. 

they can pee and poop, lots of it, very liquidity too

they move they limbs rapidly when you pick them up and turn them upside to long

they hid in their shell when they are scared

they can pace back and forth nonstop

they can sit in one place for a long time

and this list can go on and on...


i truly believe you need to have happy and secure tortoises, both for your sake and theirs.


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## chadk (Jul 29, 2010)

Pretty much.

Many animals, including torts, are prone to stress. This can be observed in behavior and health changes. For example, parasite blooms can be a problem for a stressed tort that has recently been moved to a new home. Or more common, a tort stops eating for a time while it adjusts to the stressful situation of being moved. Then there is the situation of putting torts together and having one bully the other. Stressful.

Sure, they don't process it like we do. They don't 'worry' like we do. But they are able to be stressed. Do they need psychotheropy? Do we need to call Dr. Phil? No, just some time to adjust and ensure their basic needs are being met (food, shelter, etc).


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## dmmj (Jul 29, 2010)

I firmly believe in stressed torts, I have seen examples of it myself in my 30 years of turtle and tortoise care. And even if you don't believe in it, I would just err (I love that word) on the side of caution. Turtles and torts can't scream " Calgon take me away", so we have to look at their behaviour to see if they can be stressed.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jul 29, 2010)

Stress isn't just an emotion. Stress is also a physiological response of the body. It's why your shoulders hurt, your neck hurts, and you get headaches when you're stressed. The body is reacting to a stimuli and releasing a huge "chemical cocktail" into your body to elicit changes in that individual. This occurs in animals equally as much as in humans.

So, do torts have stress? Yes. Of course they don't worry about bills (and for that matter may not "worry" in the same sense we think) but they do feel stress. Worry is probably what you're trying to ask about since stress is an accepted phenomenon in all animals. To say that they don't feel stress is very much so akin to saying they don't feel hunger. Both are readily verifiable by scientific means.


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## Madkins007 (Jul 29, 2010)

If you need a more scientific definition of stress, Douglas Mader, DVM, in the book "Reptile Medicine and Surgery" defines stress in animals roughly as their dealing with the gap between what they need and what they get. 

A tortoise kept too hot or bright or dry is stressed as it attempts to deal with the issues. It will expend energy on closing or managing the gap when it should be using the energy for other things. The bigger the gap, the worse the stress.

One of our key jobs as keepers is to keep this gap as small as reasonably possible.

I am also not so sure you can write off the idea of reptilian feelings. Most animal researchers feel that reptiles can experience at least the base feelings- fear, pain, pleasure, etc. They are also intelligent and can solve puzzles and mazes, and be trained (although it can be tough to motivate them). If they can think, why not feel?

Obviously, we cannot really think like a tortoise, but I have absolutely no problem with a tort in the open, especially as a very edible baby, getting more and more nervous as they spend more time in the open, then feeling secure when in a shelter.


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## dolfanjack (Jul 29, 2010)

After more research I do agree animals have acute stress. Now my questions are: does acute stress have long term heath consenquences? and do they suffer chronic stress?


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## Homerist (Jul 30, 2010)

All living organism encounter stress and have their own way of managing stress.


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## DoctorCosmonaut (Jul 31, 2010)

Yes they do... I think everything has been said that I would say... lol


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## Madkins007 (Jul 31, 2010)

dolfanjack said:


> After more research I do agree animals have acute stress. Now my questions are: does acute stress have long term heath consenquences? and do they suffer chronic stress?



It would depend largely on the nature of the stress, but common results would probably be poor overall development, metabolic bone diseases (both dietary and non-dietary), stress on organs, dehydration, and probably more generalized, less specific issues.

An article I read pointed out an interesting element. You can raise a Koala on things other than Eucalyptus, but it will not survive for an extended period, and when it dies, it will not really die from anything specific, and the thought was that it is sort of the effect stress has on an organism.


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## Tracy Gould (Aug 31, 2010)

I Just came back off my Holidays and because some else was looking after my Hermann i put her back in her small Viv for the week bad mistake i collected her and she started with the runs after farther research i found out this happens when they get stressed. Every living animal can get stressed, If u put a Tortoise in the open on your floor they will move pretty quick across the floor some people think they are happy and exploring but they are looking for safety and warmth.


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## ElfDa (Aug 31, 2010)

Just like we feel unsafe when we're late on rent (oh no, I'm going to live on the street and get eaten by raccoons), they feel unsafe when they don't have a roof over *their* heads, too. The tank doesn't count; your hand can get them, out there. And if your hand can get in, so could a bear, for all they know. 
They don't have the intelligence to know that they are in a cage/tank, in a house/apartment, with a locked door, far away from predators, but they do understand that they need to have a place to hide. 

...just like cats.
though they seem to have a better grasp of hiding than some domestic cats who live by the "if I can't see you, you can't see me" philosophy.


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## Laura (Aug 31, 2010)

Its a diferent type of Life stress.. Predator vs Prey.. they are, for the most part.. Prey.. They hide to avoid being eaten.. Instinct..


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## dolfanjack (Aug 31, 2010)

So pretty much all of our tortioses are under stress (picking them up constintly for sexing, baths, taking them inside to outside ect.) so its a matter of how comfortable we are in the amount of stress we give them. So when my original post about not providing a hide and our torts can be conditioned not to be stressed without it, I got "tared and feathered" for even suggesting not providing a hide because of the stress that would put on our torts. Yet as pet keepers we may actually be causing so much stress on our torts that it should be unethical for us to even keep them. So how much stress is okay?


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## Laura (Aug 31, 2010)

All are individuals.. some adjust better then others. It depends on the animal AND the keeper.. 
If you were picked up by a 'monster' and turned over and held in the air many times your height,, it would be stressful,, but if you had a good trusting keeper.. you might adjust and aclimate to being in captivity...see??


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## PeanutbuttER (Aug 31, 2010)

Picking a tort up and giving them a bath doesn't take much time at all. The related stress would be brief. 

Not providing a hide for the long term is different. The stress is prolonged, occurring over an extended period of time (years if you just never keep them with a hide).


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## dolfanjack (Aug 31, 2010)

PeanutbuttER said:


> Picking a tort up and giving them a bath doesn't take much time at all. The related stress would be brief.
> 
> Not providing a hide for the long term is different. The stress is prolonged, occurring over an extended period of time (years if you just never keep them with a hide).



We know torts can be conditioned, so long term stress do to no hides is only conjecture. However, brief short term stress every day over years might be more harmful to their health. Yet no one gets upset when we continue to pick up our torts, but people gave me all kinds of heat for asking if no hides might condition our pets from being shy.


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## Madkins007 (Aug 31, 2010)

Maybe we should we separate stress and 'distress'? Picking up or otherwise scaring an animal creates distress, but does this have the same concerns that creating an inadequate habitat would?

For humans, there is actually a stress scale- different events are worth points- loss of a spouse=100pts, going to jail=63 points, etc. When you rack up 100 points, it creates physical illness.

I suspect all animals react similarly. Picking up a tortoise? Call it 1 to 3 points. 'Baking' it- 80 points, dehydrating it past a certain level- 100 points. We should do what we can to keep stress low.

However, a NO STRESS environment would be a practical impossibility for most of us. Heck, we cannot even manage to avoid stress to our children, and of course, tortoises experience some forms of stress in the wild- predation, weather, etc.

I think the thing that got your other thread going hot and heavy is that it seemed to many that you were going to introduce a lot of stress (by removing the hide) to further a personal goal (making the tort more 'friendly').


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## dolfanjack (Aug 31, 2010)

Madkins007 said:


> Maybe we should we separate stress and 'distress'? Picking up or otherwise scaring an animal creates distress, but does this have the same concerns that creating an inadequate habitat would?
> 
> For humans, there is actually a stress scale- different events are worth points- loss of a spouse=100pts, going to jail=63 points, etc. When you rack up 100 points, it creates physical illness.
> 
> ...


zpokji9
My other thread was intended to introduce a theory: one I believe would work but thats beside the point. When people talk about stress or distress, pain, or fear, people anthromorphized their animals and animals just dont feel like we do. Everyone here puts stress on their pets for their own benefits and not the tortioses. You breed any tortiose that isn't endangered and your putting unnessesary stress on your pets. Don't throw stones if you live in glass houses.


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## ElfDa (Sep 1, 2010)

dolfanjack said:


> PeanutbuttER said:
> 
> 
> > Picking a tort up and giving them a bath doesn't take much time at all. The related stress would be brief.
> ...



having worked with feral animals, I can tell you now that the best way to "condition" them, is to let them get used to you from a safe place.
When I got an older guinea pig, she was terrified of humans. I let her have an old shoe box for a hide, and just sat near her and talked quietly. I put little treats in there for her, and got her used to the presence of my hands.

To get an animal comfortable with being handled, you basically have to desensitize them to your presence, and learn that you are not a predator. This can take time. I've met a turtle who had her hide taken away; she's not right in the head. :s I didn't know you could screw up turtles, but apparently you can. Everything is terrifying; she has nowhere to run to except her own shell and she never became friendly. 

My torties have always had a place to retreat to when the big bad world gets a little too intimidating; just like my cats have places to go and unwind. and I never. take. them. out of their "safe zone". Pulling an animal out of their "safe zone" will only confirm their suspicion that you are an inescapable predator.


*so, bottom line: 
give them a hide box.
let them come to you.
be patient.*


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## Madkins007 (Sep 1, 2010)

dolfanjack said:


> zpokji9
> My other thread was intended to introduce a theory: one I believe would work but thats beside the point. When people talk about stress or distress, pain, or fear, people anthromorphized their animals and animals just dont feel like we do. Everyone here puts stress on their pets for their own benefits and not the tortioses. You breed any tortiose that isn't endangered and your putting unnessesary stress on your pets. Don't throw stones if you live in glass houses.



What am I missing here? I pointed out why I thought you got 'tarred and feathered', but did not pass judgement on it myself.

You said "people anthromorphized their animals and animals just dont feel like we do"- but you have also said that they feel stress- are you splitting hairs? 

What exactly is your point? Are you seriously suggesting that all stress is equal- that the minor stress of handling is the same as a major stress?

Are you saying that since we cannot avoid stress, then it is OK to stress them out completely? 

Are you saying that if we cannot avoid stress, we should not raise the stressed animals? (And if so, how would this apply to raising children?)

May I ask you to state you position nice and clearly so we know exactly what we are discussing here?


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