# Pyramiding in tortoises with Metabolic Bone Disease



## Yvonne G

I thought I would start a new thread on this topic and place some pictures for you all to see.

Don Williams of the Bakersfield chapter of CTTC had two empty shells and he cut them apart to take a look at the effects of pyramiding. Here's the two shells before he cut:







The pyramided shell on the right, shows just a mild form of pyramiding. 
This is that shell with a cut off portion:






If you look closely at the inside of the carapace, you can see that the inside of the bumps goes up into the bump that shows on the outside..

Here's a view of a cut off section of the normal carapace:






My Dudley is now a little over 100lbs and 20 years old. When I first got him at 35lbs his pyramiding was worse than the tortoise shown here in these shots. He shows no ill effects from the pyramiding and the growth since living here has been smooth. I don't think this is going to adversely effect his life. However, if a heavy object were to fall on him, I imagine his carapace wouldn't be as strong as a normal sulcata the same size having that object fall on him. But under normal circumstances and in a normal life, I think he will live a long time.

Yvonne


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## Meg90

*RE: pyramiding*

Really great pictures Yvonne. I am glad you posted this, it helps everyone SEE what really happens when an animal is pyramided. Because, yes, usually it is only cosmetic when caught early, but it has the potential to be detrimental as well.

thanks for posting.


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## Isa

*RE: pyramiding*

Very interesting Yvonne,
Thank you so much for posting this. Someone should stick this thread, it is very important to see what pyramiding can do to a tortoise.


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## micki

*RE: pyramiding*

good post Yvonne, useful pics as well.


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## Tom

*RE: pyramiding*

I'm not clear on this.

General tort question: Scutes are keratinus growth on top of flat bone, right? This is what I've always thought and that's what it looks like in the first pic. You can see the flat, skeletal bone where some scutes have been removed.

Question 2: Pyramiding then, is abnormal, upward growth of the keratinus scutes, right? From the pics it looks like the keratin forming the scute is less dense and has "air" pockets in it, but the bone underneath seems normal.

Do I have this wrong? This is why I think MBD and pyramiding are two totally different things. You can certainly have both problems in the same tort, but they are two independent problems with different causes.

Can anyone recommend a good tortoise anatomy book?


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## allegraf

*RE: pyramiding*

Thanks for the pics! That is fascinating stuff!


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## Yvonne G

*RE: pyramiding*

In the second picture, there is no scute material over the slice of bone. The porous section you see is actually the bone. If there were a scute on the bone, it would look like a lump on the outside, but a cut off side view would look perfectly normal.


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## Stephanie Logan

*RE: pyramiding*

Sorry, but this stuff makes me cringe...the truth hurts!

I'm still hoping Roachman is right and a well-kept pyramided tortoise can still lead a long and comfortable life. The fact that "only time will tell" is my purgatory.


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## -EJ

*RE: pyramiding*

I wonder about people who post information out of context. Dons photos show nothing.

First, the cuts you are showing are in totally different areas. One of those areas is normally porous and one of those areas is normally dense. 

Do you enjoy misinforming the people who are looking for real information?

All I can offer is a sigh and hope the readers of this trash do some research of their own.


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## Yvonne G

*RE: pyramiding*



-EJ said:


> Do you enjoy misinforming the people who are looking for real information?



Thanks for the accusation, Ed. I don't knowingly misinform anyone. Instead of accusing, can't you provide a better picture or explanation?


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## Stephanie Logan

*RE: pyramiding*



-EJ said:


> I wonder about people who post information out of context. Dons photos show nothing.
> First, the cuts you are showing are in totally different areas. One of those areas is normally porous and one of those areas is normally dense.
> Do you enjoy misinforming the people who are looking for real information?
> All I can offer is a sigh and hope the readers of this trash do some research of their own.



I have been a good girl and reported your post instead of typing something to express my feelings about this ABUSE.


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## Tom

*RE: pyramiding*



-EJ said:


> I wonder about people who post information out of context. Dons photos show nothing.
> 
> First, the cuts you are showing are in totally different areas. One of those areas is normally porous and one of those areas is normally dense.
> 
> Do you enjoy misinforming the people who are looking for real information?
> 
> All I can offer is a sigh and hope the readers of this trash do some research of their own.




EJ, please let us know where to go too find "real" info. on this subject. I obviously do want to learn, but I'm limited to magazines, old, out-dated books and reptile shows. I've been researching this topic since the early nineties and haven't gotten very far, until very recently. I learned about this forum a couple of weeks ago and its been a great source of info.

Please share what you know and help erase all the ignorance(especially mine) associated with this subject.


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## -EJ

*RE: pyramiding*

It's not an accusation... it's a fact.

You're posting misinformation... which has been covered at length.

I'll get around to posting a better photo... one day.



emysemys said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you enjoy misinforming the people who are looking for real information?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the accusation, Ed. I don't knowingly misinform anyone. Instead of accusing, can't you provide a better picture or explanation?
Click to expand...


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## Stephanie Logan

*RE: pyramiding*



-EJ said:


> It's not an accusation... it's a fact.
> You're posting misinformation... which has been covered at length.
> *I'll get around to posting a better photo... one day.*



Why wait? You didn't hesitate to offer pointed criticism.

Now it's time to ante up, or apoligize if you've misplaced your proof.


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## Yvonne G

*RE: pyramiding*



-EJ said:


> Do you enjoy misinforming the people who are looking for real information?



Ed: THIS is the accusation part of your post.


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## -EJ

*RE: pyramiding*

If you'd like to read it that way. 

I'm not making an accusation... I'm stating outright.

It is a fact that pyramiding IS NOT a sighn of MBD. 

I'll restate what I usually state... A tortoise with MBD is sometimes pyramided. You can have a perfectly healthy tortoise that has pyramiding.

Would you agree with what I'm stating?




emysemys said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you enjoy misinforming the people who are looking for real information?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ed: THIS is the accusation part of your post.
Click to expand...


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## Yvonne G

*RE: pyramiding*

Ed: You implied that I enjoy posting the wrong information. I would be the first person to admit it if I found out that what I said was wrong. But so far you haven't proved to me that my original post IS wrong.



-EJ said:


> If you'd like to read it that way.
> 
> I'm not making an accusation... I'm stating outright.
> 
> It is a fact that pyramiding IS NOT a sighn of MBD.
> 
> I'll restate what I usually state... A tortoise with MBD is sometimes pyramided. You can have a perfectly healthy tortoise that has pyramiding.
> 
> Would you agree with what I'm stating?



Ok Ed...apples and oranges. Go back and re-read my original post. Did I say anyplace in that post that this is what MBD looks like?


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## bettinge

*RE: pyramiding*



emysemys said:


> Ed: You implied that I enjoy posting the wrong information. I would be the first person to admit it if I found out that what I said was wrong. But so far you haven't proved to me that my original post IS wrong.



Not to mention that I don't feel anyone is knowingly posting misinformation here on the forum, let alone enjoying it. Relax Yvonne, I have been accused of posting misinformation myself! It rubs you the wrong way, dosen't it? It does me!


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## Yvonne G

*RE: pyramiding*



bettinge said:


> Relax Yvonne, I have been accused of posting misinformation myself! It rubs you the wrong way, dosen't it? It does me!



I've been called on posting the wrong information lots of times by Danny. But it never bothered me because he let me know how I was wrong. This one is just way out there. If my pictures are wrong, then I'll certainly apologize, but I don't think they are and I haven't been shown yet how they are wrong.


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## -EJ

*RE: pyramiding*

If you read the original post you will see that the entire post leads one to believe that pyramiding causes the porous bone development... this is wrong... nuf said.


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## Isa

*RE: pyramiding*

Seriously I do not understand what is happening now! Yvonne start a super intersting thread, it is super nice of her and now Ed, you do not share the same opinion, you do not really say why or you do not try to prove your point and you are kind of insulting her!!! Geeezzz, it is starting to be scary to post something on this forum!


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## -EJ

*RE: pyramiding*

If you go into the Debate Section(where I believe this topic belongs) and look up pyramiding and MBD you will find this topic discussed at length. You will then see why this particular thread should not be highlighted as any kind of fact.

My concern is that a new keeper is going to read this highlited topic and panic.

Also... my accusation... was a question.

I'm curious... how many new keepers have tortoises have some form of pyramiding? Does this kind of information cause you any kind of distress?





Isa said:


> Seriously I do not understand what is happening now! Yvonne start a super intersting thread, it is super nice of her and now Ed, you do not share the same opinion, you do not really say why or you do not try to prove your point and you are kind of insulting her!!! Geeezzz, it is starting to be scary to post something on this forum!


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## Isa

*RE: pyramiding*



-EJ said:


> Also... my accusation... was a question.
> 
> I'm curious... how many new keepers have tortoises have some form of pyramiding? Does this kind of information cause you any kind of distress?



It was not a question but an insult the way you said it.
And why would this kind of info would cause any kind of distress to someone? I found the info super informative


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## -EJ

*RE: pyramiding*

THAT's the scary part... you saw it as informative... it is not. It actually shows 2 tortoises with MBD (a 'normal' wild caught DTs shell is about twice that thick at the point at which that photo was taken) One is being use as a 'normal' example and the other is used as an abnormal example. The abnormal example is further being use to demonstrate that the two conditions are related... They are not.




Isa said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also... my accusation... was a question.
> 
> I'm curious... how many new keepers have tortoises have some form of pyramiding? Does this kind of information cause you any kind of distress?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was not a question but an insult the way you said it.
> And why would this kind of info would cause any kind of distress to someone? I found the info super informative
Click to expand...


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## Yvonne G

*RE: pyramiding*



Roachman26 said:


> EJ, please let us know where to go too find "real" info. on this subject. I obviously do want to learn, but I'm limited to magazines, old, out-dated books and reptile shows.



You will have to join the WCT list serv in order to open this album, but here is the link to Don's Desert album where he shows the complete group of pictures. He refers to them as having MBD, so that was my mistake in showing only the pyramided quote. Evidently the pyramided tortoise suffered from MBD.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WCT_O...ic/list?mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc

He says that the cut is at the front of the carapace on both pictures, the healthy and the MBD one.


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## Stephanie Logan

*RE: pyramiding*



-EJ said:


> I'm not making an accusation... I'm stating outright
> Also... my accusation... was a question.



These two statements contradict each other. Which is it, Ed, a statement, a question, or an accusation?

I should think you would know since you posted both, but I'm not sure anyone else does.

I would appreciate a little clarity and a lot more courtesy, please.


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## Yvonne G

*RE: pyramiding*

Ok, I think that's enough on the subject of Ed in this thread. He doesn't think he made a wrong comment and I admit that I didn't think I was showing MBD pictures. I've since gone back to Don's original posted pictures on the WCT list serv and Don says the pictures are of a tortoise with MBD. So these pictures don't show a pyramided tortoise, they show a pyramided tortoise with MBD. I think it would be VERY interesting to see a cut off section of pyramiding with NO MBD.

I'm ok with it and I hope the rest of you are too. An honest mistake on my part. Sorry.


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## -EJ

*RE: pyramiding*

I am sorry if you were insulted by my question. It wasn't intended as an insult but as a sighn of frustration on my part.

This is a topic I feel very strongly about. I also think I explained my point well enough to be understood.

Everyone makes mistakes which is why an open discussion is beneficial.

(A little off topic... does anyone here remember the pop TV show 'The Mob Squad'...? I don't know why I just thought of that.)



emysemys said:


> Ok, I think that's enough on the subject of Ed in this thread. He doesn't think he made a wrong comment and I admit that I didn't think I was showing MBD pictures. I've since gone back to Don's original posted pictures on the WCT list serv and Don says the pictures are of a tortoise with MBD. So these pictures don't show a pyramided tortoise, they show a pyramided tortoise with MBD. I think it would be VERY interesting to see a cut off section of pyramiding with NO MBD.
> 
> I'm ok with it and I hope the rest of you are too. An honest mistake on my part. Sorry.


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## bettinge

*RE: pyramiding*

"Do you *enjoy* misinforming the people who are looking for real information?"

"All I can offer is a sigh and hope the readers of *this trash *do some research of their own."

Its really all about the power of words. I think most people would feel they have to defend themselves with these statements. Funny how people read things different than we thought we wrote them!


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## Stephanie Logan

*RE: pyramiding*



bettinge said:


> "Do you *enjoy* misinforming the people who are looking for real information?"
> "All I can offer is a sigh and hope the readers of *this trash *do some research of their own."
> Its really all about the power of words. I think most people would feel they have to defend themselves with these statements. Funny how people read things different than we thought we wrote them!



Or read them exactly as we meant them.

Powerful, indeed.


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## stells

*RE: pyramiding*

Come on... Ed has apologised... on the public forum...

Maybe a thank you to Ed is more appropriate than discussing his tone... mine has been discussed in the past too and i'm still not sure how to have a tone when it is just typed out...

But thanks to Ed the small mistake has now been rectified and the thread is back on track???


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## Jacqui

*RE: pyramiding*

I agree Kelly, both Ed and Yvonne have apologized and any unplanned misinformation has been cleared up. Time to move on and only talk about what this thread is about.

Ed, yep I remember Mod Squad, a nice TV series with Lincoln, Julie and Bobby. (oops I say back to being on topic and then I answered to something off topic, okay Robyn you can wack my bad mod fingers now.)


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## terracolson

*RE: pyramiding*

Ok I skipped the second pages... seems i stumbled on drama... 

I really want to learn about this but to be honest i would like to see pictures that i can understnad.. i dont get the first pics...

what does it look like when the tortoise is alive- compareing to PERFECT to PYRAMINDed.
then on the inside how does it look...

also how does it differ per species? i hear leopards are common to pyramind? how long does it take? can it be corrected?


where is a book any one?

I found a great link that answer lots of my questins
http://africantortoise.com/pyramiding_in_tortoises.htm


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## terracolson

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

look at this pic of a leopard tortoise









http://www.nhc.ed.ac.uk/index.php?page=24.134.137.142.154


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## Kymiie

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

Thank you, but I do have one question!
How did he get empty shells?
Did the tortoise die, and he left it to decay away to keep the shell?
xx


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## -EJ

*RE: pyramiding*

I love discussing 'pyramiding' but when I get a sense of attitude I can only assume the discussion can go bad.

What you call 'drama' is a very long time discussion between friends that has taken place over about 10 or better years.

Also... your link is administering wrong information(that was covered in the drama section of this thread) right off the bat in the first line. I wouldn't even bother reading the rest if the author does not understand the relationship of MBD and pyramiding.



terracolson said:


> Ok I skipped the second pages... seems i stumbled on drama...
> 
> I really want to learn about this but to be honest i would like to see pictures that i can understnad.. i dont get the first pics...
> 
> what does it look like when the tortoise is alive- compareing to PERFECT to PYRAMINDed.
> then on the inside how does it look...
> 
> also how does it differ per species? i hear leopards are common to pyramind? how long does it take? can it be corrected?
> 
> 
> where is a book any one?
> 
> I found a great link that answer lots of my questins
> http://africantortoise.com/pyramiding_in_tortoises.htm


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## kimmikins

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

Sometimes i think we write things meaning absolutely no malice and the way it gets read mutates into something negative.. I READ HOSTILITY in the last post but i am sure this is not the case.. I can only hope as a new comer to this site that my readings of hostility are unfounded and i am barking up the wrong tree,, I would hate to feel i needed to leave a forum when the essence of it is so fanastic xx


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## Yvonne G

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*



kimmikins said:


> Sometimes i think we write things meaning absolutely no malice and the way it gets read mutates into something negative.. I READ HOSTILITY in the last post but i am sure this is not the case.. I can only hope as a new comer to this site that my readings of hostility are unfounded and i am barking up the wrong tree,, I would hate to feel i needed to leave a forum when the essence of it is so fanastic xx



Please don't even think of leaving the forum! Pyramiding and MBD are topics very close to EJ's heart and he's trying to make people understand what it is and why it is. He might be a little brusque at times, but his heart is in the right place!


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## terracolson

*RE: pyramiding*

Well i am still learning, my point was about the picture.

I was wanting pictures that show perfect and not so perfect shell.

As A newbie, I would like the complete picture..

I see SO many leopard tortoises here in sac but all of them are pyraminded, what does a healthy one look like?

I was trying to find out...


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## Yvonne G

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

The very first picture showed a perfect shell on the left and a not-so-perfect shell on the right.


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## -EJ

*RE: pyramiding*

A smooth shell does not indicate that the tortoise is healthy. This is the same line of thought that a pyramided shell does not indicate an unhealthy tortoise.



terracolson said:


> I see SO many leopard tortoises here in sac but all of them are pyraminded, what does a healthy one look like?


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## Stephanie Logan

*RE: pyramiding*



-EJ said:


> A smooth shell does not indicate that the tortoise is healthy. This is the same line of thought that a pyramided shell does not indicate an unhealthy tortoise.



So, I get that a pyramided tortoise does not necessarily have MBD. Are the conditions that lead to pyramiding similar to those that lead to MBD? Are pyramided tortoises more likely than non-pyramided tortoises to have MBD?

What are the symptoms of MBD, and what does a tortoise afflicted with MBD look like?

I saw a photo on here once of a tortoise with sort of a hunchback shell that someone said may have MBD.

I am assuming that the condition of Metabolic Bone Disease is more serious to the tortoise's health than pyramiding. How is MBD diagnosed and what, if any, are the treatments?


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## -EJ

*RE: pyramiding*

I don't think so because I believe that there are two totally different physical mechanisms involved one is the laying down of the bone and the other is the bone growing... they are not the same. You can have bone growth without calcium... this is what leads to the porous bone. The bone is constantly in flux. 

I believe that it is the keratin layer that is the what causes the pyramiding because it does not allow the bone to grow out.

There is the obvious malformed shell... not necessarily pyramiding. The legs cannot support the animal. Those are the obvious.

What I like to use is a 'tap' test. I lightly tap the shell... if it sounds solid and sharp... it is good... if it sounds hollow and dull... not good.

The best way to hear the difference is to try this with a tortoise that you know has a thin shell and one that you know has a good shell. Once you hear the difference there is no mistaking it.

Keep in mind that there are different levels of MBD.

You got it in that MBD is more serious than pyramiding. If caught early and the joints have not been effected... just add calcium and D3 in whatever form.




Stephanie Logan said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> A smooth shell does not indicate that the tortoise is healthy. This is the same line of thought that a pyramided shell does not indicate an unhealthy tortoise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, I get that a pyramided tortoise does not necessarily have MBD. Are the conditions that lead to pyramiding similar to those that lead to MBD? Are pyramided tortoises more likely than non-pyramided tortoises to have MBD?
> 
> What are the symptoms of MBD, and what does a tortoise afflicted with MBD look like?
> 
> I saw a photo on here once of a tortoise with sort of a hunchback shell that someone said may have MBD.
> 
> I am assuming that the condition of Metabolic Bone Disease is more serious to the tortoise's health than pyramiding. How is MBD diagnosed and what, if any, are the treatments?
Click to expand...


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## Stephanie Logan

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

So, would a herp vet be able to tell me if Taco has pryamiding, MBD, or both?

She is able to support herself when she walks.

She gets regular calcium supplements now, but only sporadically when she having her major bone growth phases.

What happens over the long term to a tortoise with one or both of these conditions?


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## -EJ

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

If it's given a good environment and good nutrition... the new growth should smooth out. That looks like a tortoise that was kept too cool and dry. It doesn't look like it has MBD but I'd have to see the animal to be sure.

This is one of the biggest reasons I push Mazuri so hard... you would have to try and make the animal pyramid. Given good conditions and Mazuri alone = a perfect looking animal. I do recommend feeding some weeds and grasses but the type does not matter with the use of Mazuri.

With MBD it depends on how much damage has been done to the joints. If the tortoise is walking tall and active... there should be no problem.

The pyramiding is there to stay outside of the new growth. Again Temperature is going to be the most important factor.

If you allow the tortoise to burrow the pyramids can eventually wear down.



Stephanie Logan said:


> So, would a herp vet be able to tell me if Taco has pryamiding, MBD, or both?
> 
> She is able to support herself when she walks.
> 
> She gets regular calcium supplements now, but only sporadically when she having her major bone growth phases.
> 
> What happens over the long term to a tortoise with one or both of these conditions?


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## Stephanie Logan

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

Thank you.


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## -EJ

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

You're welcome... hope it helped a little.



Stephanie Logan said:


> Thank you.


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## Annieski

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

Generally, equal amounts of soluble calcium and phosphorus ions are required for balance; ideally, the ratio of calcium to phosphorus should be 2:1. Too much calcium results in a phosphorus deficiency and impaired metabolic function. Too much phosphorus in the diet forms insoluble calcium phosphate which renders the calcium unusable; as the body continues to absorb the phosphorus, hypocalcemiaÃ¢â‚¬â€metabolic bone diseaseÃ¢â‚¬â€results.

I re-read the very first intro I had when I knew I was taking Morty home to NJ. This is an explanation[just part] about MBD, it is from "Melissa Kaplans" writing on Chelonians. Also, from what I read about pryamiding-- I concluded that it has more to do with lack of "Natural" sunlight and perhaps foods that are too "Rich" and therefore causes too rapid growth in captive Sulcata. A hatchling in a dry desert enviornment may not find food readily or be able to provide itself with enough moisture relative to size but there is no escaping the sun in the desert. Just my thoughts.


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## -EJ

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

No... idealy they ratio should be 1:1. 2:1 came about because tortoise keepers figured that plants contain a huge amount of phosphorous so they over compensated by adding more calcium.

While Malissa is a fantastic researcher and writer... her views are severely slanted. What you quoted is her opinion... which I disagree with.



Annieski said:


> Generally, equal amounts of soluble calcium and phosphorus ions are required for balance; ideally, the ratio of calcium to phosphorus should be 2:1. Too much calcium results in a phosphorus deficiency and impaired metabolic function. Too much phosphorus in the diet forms insoluble calcium phosphate which renders the calcium unusable; as the body continues to absorb the phosphorus, hypocalcemiaÃ¢â‚¬â€metabolic bone diseaseÃ¢â‚¬â€results.
> 
> I re-read the very first intro I had when I knew I was taking Morty home to NJ. This is an explanation[just part] about MBD, it is from "Melissa Kaplans" writing on Chelonians. Also, from what I read about pryamiding-- I concluded that it has more to do with lack of "Natural" sunlight and perhaps foods that are too "Rich" and therefore causes too rapid growth in captive Sulcata. A hatchling in a dry desert enviornment may not find food readily or be able to provide itself with enough moisture relative to size but there is no escaping the sun in the desert. Just my thoughts.


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## Yvonne G

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

Also, if you check out the dates of her publications, you will see that none of them have been changed or updated in years.


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## Annieski

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

I know I took this info a bit out of context, but my point in doing so was to confirm what you had said about being able to have pryamiding WITHOUT MBD. From what I've read and been told by my vet that a tortoise can survive with pryamiding and go on to have a "happy" life but that is not the case with MBD.


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## -EJ

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

Good point.



Annieski said:


> I know I took this info a bit out of context, but my point in doing so was to confirm what you had said about being able to have pryamiding WITHOUT MBD. From what I've read and been told by my vet that a tortoise can survive with pryamiding and go on to have a "happy" life but that is not the case with MBD.


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## Annieski

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*



Annieski said:


> I know I took this info a bit out of context, but my point in doing so was to confirm what you had said about being able to have pryamiding WITHOUT MBD. From what I've read and been told by my vet that a tortoise can survive with pryamiding and go on to have a "happy" life but that is not the case with MBD.



And even though years go by, basic anatomy and physiology really doesn't change. She is explaining the differences of soluable and insoluable calcium and the effects they have on the body when not in balance[which is very similar to the effects in humands as well].


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## -EJ

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

You are totally correct.

It's still 1:1. Ca



Annieski said:


> Annieski said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know I took this info a bit out of context, but my point in doing so was to confirm what you had said about being able to have pryamiding WITHOUT MBD. From what I've read and been told by my vet that a tortoise can survive with pryamiding and go on to have a "happy" life but that is not the case with MBD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And even though years go by, basic anatomy and physiology really doesn't change. She is explaining the differences of soluable and insoluable calcium and the effects they have on the body when not in balance[which is very similar to the effects in humands as well].
Click to expand...


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## TortoiseMD

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

interesting, this happens because the pyramidig shell does not have enough calcium during growth to calcify the new forming bone, it is similar to osteopenia in humans.


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## Yvonne G

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*



TortoiseMD said:


> interesting, this happens because the pyramidig shell does not have enough calcium during growth to calcify the new forming bone, it is similar to osteopenia in humans.



I notice that you have answered quite a few posts today. May we know a little bit about you?






to the forum!


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## -EJ

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

One more time... you can have perfectly normal bone density and still have pyramiding. This is an important point that the new keeper needs to understand.



TortoiseMD said:


> interesting, this happens because the pyramidig shell does not have enough calcium during growth to calcify the new forming bone, it is similar to osteopenia in humans.


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## TortoiseMD

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

Thank you Yvonne for welcoming me to the forum.
what would you like to know about me?
I am in southern California, have 20+ Russians and 15+ Hermanns , 6 leopard tortoises 



-EJ said:


> One more time... you can have perfectly normal bone density and still have pyramiding. This is an important point that the new keeper needs to understand.
> 
> 
> 
> TortoiseMD said:
> 
> 
> 
> interesting, this happens because the pyramidig shell does not have enough calcium during growth to calcify the new forming bone, it is similar to osteopenia in humans.
Click to expand...


I doubt that you can have normal bone denisty while still having pyramiding, bone density has to do with calcium content of the bone (like osteoporosis, you diagnose it by measuring bone denisty and seeing that it is lower than normal bone)
in pyramiding as the posted pictures show, the new bone tissue is not of normal structure so it's density is less than a normal bone (or shell), that's why you see gaps and air pockets in the pyramiding shell ( so it's density is much less than a normal shell).


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## Yvonne G

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

Ed's point is that the pictures are NOT of a merely pyramided shell. They show also MBD, which your answer applies to also. A shell with only pyramiding would not show the porous bone underneath, only stacked scutes.

You have quite a nice tortoise family. I'd love to see some pictures of your animals and their habitats.


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## TortoiseMD

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

thanks for the clarification, I will try to post some pictures in the next few days.


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## -EJ

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

So... all those Tent Tortoises, Leopards and Stars that are found in the wild with some from of pyramiding... all... have MBD?

Please... do not say that it is species specific. They all pretty much have the same physiology. What might differ in those species is their habits and available habitat. Not all of those species have pyramiding which has to make you give it a little thought.

Again... if you are referring to the examples given both have a bone deficiency. I would like to thank you for the new word...osteopenia... that is probably the case in the 'normal' looking shell.

The only relationship pyramiding has to MBD is that a good majority of tortoises which have MBD are usually pyramided... not always. Not all pyramided tortoises have MBD. I don't point this out for arguments sake but for the sake of the owners of tortoises that do have some pyramiding to some extent or another.






TortoiseMD said:


> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> One more time... you can have perfectly normal bone density and still have pyramiding. This is an important point that the new keeper needs to understand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt that you can have normal bone denisty while still having pyramiding, bone density has to do with calcium content of the bone (like osteoporosis, you diagnose it by measuring bone denisty and seeing that it is lower than normal bone)
> in pyramiding as the posted pictures show, the new bone tissue is not of normal structure so it's density is less than a normal bone (or shell), that's why you see gaps and air pockets in the pyramiding shell ( so it's density is much less than a normal shell).
Click to expand...


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## TortoiseMD

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*



-EJ said:


> So... all those Tent Tortoises, Leopards and Stars that are found in the wild with some from of pyramiding... all... have MBD?
> 
> Please... do not say that it is species specific. They all pretty much have the same physiology. What might differ in those species is their habits and available habitat. Not all of those species have pyramiding which has to make you give it a little thought.
> 
> Again... if you are referring to the examples given both have a bone deficiency. I would like to thank you for the new word...osteopenia... that is probably the case in the 'normal' looking shell.
> 
> The only relationship pyramiding has to MBD is that a good majority of tortoises which have MBD are usually pyramided... not always. Not all pyramided tortoises have MBD. I don't point this out for arguments sake but for the sake of the owners of tortoises that do have some pyramiding to some extent or another.
> 
> Thanks for your information, I am not trying to argue here, I am just trying to get the correct information out.
> I was not speaking to MBD vs pyramiding, I merely was clarfiying your post that said that in pyramiding you have normal bone density, I simply disagree because both MBD and pyramiding have some abnormal bone formation and that alters the bone chararcteristics and it is no longer of normal denisty.
> I also think you might be right about that pyramiding might not be due to lack of calcium, but again who knows, there is a lot to be learned about tortoises, and there is no clear scientific information available nor any verifiable studies about these diseases and its cause in tortoises.
> 
> I think there is a lot to learn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TortoiseMD said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -EJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> One more time... you can have perfectly normal bone density and still have pyramiding. This is an important point that the new keeper needs to understand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt that you can have normal bone denisty while still having pyramiding, bone density has to do with calcium content of the bone (like osteoporosis, you diagnose it by measuring bone denisty and seeing that it is lower than normal bone)
> in pyramiding as the posted pictures show, the new bone tissue is not of normal structure so it's density is less than a normal bone (or shell), that's why you see gaps and air pockets in the pyramiding shell ( so it's density is much less than a normal shell).
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## -EJ

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

So this is an opinion on your part. You also didn't explane how you can have normal healthy pyramided tortoises in the wild.

This is an argument... sorry. It is a common misconception that all pyramided tortoises have MBD.

As you learn more about tortoises you will see that you can have very healthy bone density in pyramided tortoises.



TortoiseMD said:


> I doubt that you can have normal bone denisty while still having pyramiding, bone density has to do with calcium content of the bone (like osteoporosis, you diagnose it by measuring bone denisty and seeing that it is lower than normal bone)
> in pyramiding as the posted pictures show, the new bone tissue is not of normal structure so it's density is less than a normal bone (or shell), that's why you see gaps and air pockets in the pyramiding shell ( so it's density is much less than a normal shell).


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## TortoiseMD

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

Thanks for your input.


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## -EJ

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

You're welcome.



TortoiseMD said:


> Thanks for your input.


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## Annieski

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

I think there is one more thing that has to be considered here-- To produce healty bone tissue--- calcium is not the only mineral substance that is necessary. But it is the BALANCE of the calcium and the other minerals, and how they work with on another to make healthy new cells. Deficiency in another mineral can make all the calcium in the world ineffective and visa-versa.


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## tjm1302

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

QUESTION... the slider I was given last night > is eight years old and the same size as my 2 year old. Her shell has pyramiding. Will her shell continue to develop now I have her in a proper environment and feeding her what she needs (they only fed her turtle pellets and kept her in a fish bowl in the bathroom!!!!)


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## Stephanie Logan

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

I don't know if this applies to turtles, but with tortoises there is no way to erase the pyramids they have already developed.

However, you can ensure that all remaining growth is healthy and smooth by providing her with a proper diet, and the right temperatures and humidity.


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## TORTOISES2010

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

what can we do to stop ( or fix ) pyramiding on tortoise ? I'm new...please help...


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## Tom

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

Welcome to the forum.

Take a look at this thread. It is still very debatable. The truth is no one knows for sure, but several of us have ideas about it. After a few more years of trial and error, I think we will have a definitive answer.

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-13106.html


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## Annieski

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

There is one more point I would like to throw in--- the scutes we are talking about for the pryamiding is actually equal to "our" skin and fingernails[or horses hooves]. Keratin is the substance which keeps it growing and healthy. Keratin is a PROTEIN. Functional Keratin comes in 2 forms--soft keratin=skin hard keratin=nails or in this case scutes. Too much protein= increased keratin production= pryamiding scutes [not MBD] The two are different, even though you can have both at the same time.


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## -EJ

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

This is extremely false and there is absolutely no evidence to support this. 

Yes... keritin is a type of protein but excess protein (whateverer that is) does not cause the overgrowth of keratin.

You've actually added a third unrelated factor although I've yet to see the evidence to support that 'too much' protein leads to the overproduction of keritin.





Annieski said:


> There is one more point I would like to throw in--- the scutes we are talking about for the pryamiding is actually equal to "our" skin and fingernails[or horses hooves]. Keratin is the substance which keeps it growing and healthy. Keratin is a PROTEIN. Functional Keratin comes in 2 forms--soft keratin=skin hard keratin=nails or in this case scutes. Too much protein= increased keratin production= pryamiding scutes [not MBD] The two are different, even though you can have both at the same time.


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## Annieski

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

Pyramiding, or pyramidal growth syndrome is a condition in which the scutes take on a conical shape. This condition has been associated with feeding excessive protein, inadequate calcium, low fiber, and other dietary excesses or deficiencies. 
Scutes: The shells are covered with a layer of keratin (the same type of material that makes up our fingernails or horses' hooves). The keratin is arranged in patches called scutes, or shields. The carapace usually has 38 scutes, and the plastron, twelve to fourteen. The names and numbers of the scutes roughly correspond to the adjacent bones and body portions. The scutes, however, do not precisely overlap the bones. Instead, they are staggered, which helps give the shell more rigidity. 
This is an extraction from the WCT website:
Information I heard about at the Herpfest states that the captive diet of hatchlings is going to be excessive and cause pyramiding, no matter what. It has has come to light that a hatchling's yolk sac produces nourishment for upwards of 9 months to a YEAR in the wild. A study on desert tortoises was done (I think this'll be presented soon, and I know CTTC had a speaker, a graduate student, who did research on this and the conclusions are amazing). Since protein occurs in both plant and animal matter, the bumpiness would cover all terrestrial species who are fed by attentive keepers, me included, if the yolk is also providing nourishment. 

My herbivore hatchlings are fairly bumpy--perhaps from all those greens and weeds, while my three-toed box turtle hatchlings are perfectly formed because of their primarily-nightcrawler diet; they nibble at veggies, but prefer the live stuff. The general perception is that hatchlings need to eat often to grow to a size that allows them to ossify (harden) and protect themselves from possible predators. But if the yolk sac resorbs where we can't see it and continues to provide nourishment like it seems to do for Desert tortoise hatchlings, is it a regional adaptation, or--and this is more likely--is it applicable to all terrestrial/semi-aquatic animals? 
EJ,
This is some of the info I've been reading. I believe it makes some sense of this question about pryamiding and MBD. You can say something is false-- as long as there is 100% proof. If there was one clearcut answer-- we wouldn't need to ponder it anymore.


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## Madkins007

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

Annieski- there have been studies done on tortoises that indicate that a major contributer to pyramiding is humidity, and protein levels of the foods play a rather small roll. I'll take the studies over the theories.

Fife, Richard. Ã¢â‚¬Å“Pyramiding in TortoisesÃ¢â‚¬Â Reptiles Magazine (Archived at http://www.animalnetwork.com/reptiles/detail.aspx?aid=20864&cid=596&search= I am not sure this link still works)

Weisner, C. S. and Iben, C. "Influence of Environmental Humidity and Dietary Protein on Pyramidal Growth of Carapaces of African Spurred Tortoises (_Geochelone sulcata_)" Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition 87 (2003), p.66-74 (You can often find this on-line as well)

The last one is the most interesting as it was supposed to prove that protein was the problem, but it discovered that it played a very small role.

There are certainly other factors that contribute, but the idea that protein is the primary villain seems rather iffy nowadays.


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## jackrat

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

Skin is not keratin,it is made of living cells.Keratin (fingernails ) are dead cells,just like hair.


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## Annieski

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*



Madkins007 said:


> Annieski- there have been studies done on tortoises that indicate that a major contributer to pyramiding is humidity, and protein levels of the foods play a rather small roll. I'll take the studies over the theories.
> 
> Fife, Richard. Ã¢â‚¬Å“Pyramiding in TortoisesÃ¢â‚¬Â Reptiles Magazine (Archived at http://www.animalnetwork.com/reptiles/detail.aspx?aid=20864&cid=596&search= I am not sure this link still works)
> 
> Weisner, C. S. and Iben, C. "Influence of Environmental Humidity and Dietary Protein on Pyramidal Growth of Carapaces of African Spurred Tortoises (_Geochelone sulcata_)" Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition 87 (2003), p.66-74 (You can often find this on-line as well)
> 
> The last one is the most interesting as it was supposed to prove that protein was the problem, but it discovered that it played a very small role.
> 
> There are certainly other factors that contribute, but the idea that protein is the primary villain seems rather iffy nowadays.



I'm not saying protien is the only problem---but I don't think excessive protien in the diet is given enough value in the cause of the problem.



jackrat said:


> Skin is not keratin,it is made of living cells.Keratin (fingernails ) are dead cells,just like hair.



It is called "functional keratin" while in the "active state" of a living cell. When the cells reach the surface layer, that is when they die and also harden to form the" protective" surface layer such as fingernails or horse hooves. This is why a "just hatched" reptile with a shell is relatively soft.


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## Madkins007

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*



Annieski said:


> I'm not saying protien is the only problem---but I don't think excessive protien in the diet is given enough value in the cause of the problem.





You really should read the reports and studies before you say such a thing. Weisner's article states "The results presented indicate that the level of dietary protein is probably not the main cause of PGS (pyramidal growth syndrome)"

I've been to a bunch of herp talks, been to a bunch of sites, heard a bunch of theories, and so on- but I really prefer to find real research when possible.


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## Annieski

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

I apologise for posting my thoughts on this topic--based on the articles I've read [most of the sites were recommended reading from this forum]. I am relatively new to reptiles and my medical backround is based in Human Anatomy and Physiology. I will continue to read what I can and leave the thinking and research to the more learned. Thank You for your thoughts and info.


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## Yvonne G

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

Annieski: 

Your thoughts are always welcome...no apology required or necessary. Please continue to participate in these debates. 

One thing to remember...most of the findings that come up in web searches are very old and haven't been updated. The humidity/pyramiding thing is quite new and doesn't show up in very many web searches.


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## Annieski

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

Yvonne, I appreciate your response. I think my "skin" needs to get as hard as Mortimer's shell.I haven't been questioning new thinking or research---many things would not be without progress and moving forward. I just don't think you should toss the "old" thinking before the "new" works atleast 95% of the time. Thank you anyway.


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## Madkins007

*RE: pyramiding with MBD*

I also apologize if my tone or anything was harsh. It was not meant to be.


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## ghdfans2010

Wow !Interesting post!I'm new here!Nice to share your post!


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## xseoer

What is the impact of marine pollution on the extent of tortoise?
We know that tortoise in high-level of the food chain.
Prey of contaminated marine.
Whether those pollutants would be deposited in their body?


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## marinano

did'nt know that thanks for posting . . . !!!


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## ALDABRAMAN

Outstanding thread. I struggle with this when I see it and become very sad. I know that alot of my hatchlings turn up years later with extreme pyramiding and it disgust me.


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## Yvonne G

I just read this article and wanted to share it with all of you (it's new):

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html


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## Michiba54

emysemys said:


> I just read this article and wanted to share it with all of you (it's new):
> 
> http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html



My eyes are shot so I didn't read the whole thing, but it look like TT has jumped on the humidity bandwagon, but doesn't want you too believe it?

NOTE: MY TEXT TONE IS SEMI-TIRED/CONFUSED


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## Madkins007

Summarized, the article says that they still feel that early growth is a key factor- that we are not growing them slowly enough with enough bone density, although they admit that we don't have the final answer yet. They do agree that heightened humidity makes a smoother shell, but they feel it is an imperfect solution---- assuming I am reading it right.


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## Michiba54

ahh, I see. Thanks Madkins. 

Hopfully this (Pyramiding) isn't a "missing link" debate where the opponents just keep asking for evidence.


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## firework

Do you guys know which species are most prone to MBD? Many of the example pictures I saw are sulcatas.

I have a Greek, it's my first tortoise, it's been with me since it's only 4 months. It's one year old now, I do not see signs of MBD. What I heard is when you see uneven shell, it's too late to reverse it. This makes me nervous. It's like you never know before it's too late.


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## sanctumbarbosa

In the second picture, there is no scute material over the slice of bone. The porous section you see is actually the bone. If there were a scute on the bone, it would look like a lump on the outside, but a cut off side view would look perfectly normal.


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