# How we breed tortoises here at the AZ Tortoise Compound



## Az tortoise compound

Figured we should get a thread going about tortoise breeding here at the Compound. This thread will be picture heavy and informational to showcase our breeding efforts as well as to help others in theirs. Please keep in mind that these observations, statistics, and results are from our facility which may have regional temperature differences, different means of care/setup and different individual tortoise personalities or localities. Questions and comments are more then welcome on this thread as we continue to update it with all the different species we work with. Arizona Tortoise Compound maintains adult groups of over 30+ different sub species/ species of tortoises. Few turtles species as well.

Some statistics at the Compound...

*Quickest artificial incubation hatch* - 
Eastern Hermann's Tortoise (T. h. boettgeri) - 35 days/ 85-87 degrees



*Longest artificial incubation hatch* -
South African Leopard Tortoise ( Pardalis Pardalis) - 464 days/ diapause 65/66 degrees, incubation 85-87 degrees 



*Species with the high successful hatch average per clutch* -
Russian Tortoises /90%



*Species with the lowest successful hatch average per clutch* -
Redfoot Tortoises/40%



*Largest clutch size* -
Sulcata Tortoise - 58 eggs



*Smallest clutch size* - This could be do to the individual species or young females laying for the first time. Also some second clutches from different species for the season can be lower in numbers then the first.
Russians, Forstens, Spiders, Pancakes and Stars- 1 eggs









*Sulcata Tortoises* are the most produced tortoise species here at the Compound.
This is due to how many individual females we have in the breeding group as well as the large clutch sizes. In Arizona, Sulcata tortoises are able to lay clutches any month of the year. On average our females lay 3 times a year with 25 eggs in a clutch. Their eggs are the size of a golf ball, if hatched naturally the main hatch happens in September, no matter if the eggs were laid in January or April. Artificial incubation typically takes an average of 100 days. A.T.C. does both methods of hatching, in effort to have hatchlings available year round. This also helps with other nesting females not destroying previously laid clutches since they all like to nest in the same area. The smallest plastron measurement of a female including the gular scute to lay a clutch was a 17 inch female. Our observations with the female Sulcata Tortoise egg productivity is young female between 18-20 inches are seemingly more prolific then larger more mature females between 22-25 inches. The catch is, the more mature females have larger clutch sizes, high fertility and better hatch success rate. Further more, the more mature the female the quicker the clutches are laid and no "test" holes are dug. Trends show at our location females that are over 35+ years old start to slow down in production by smaller numbers of clutches per year. The largest female Sulcata to be at the Compound was 28 inches and documented to be fifty to Sixty years old. When Sulcata Tortoises start digging nest sites , they will dig out a depression with their front legs, then turn around and start digging the egg chamber with the hind legs. They are very careful like all other tortoise species to pack in the eggs softly and then pack in the dirt. Once finished a nest site is very easy to be over looked. 






The largest male Sulcata at our facility is 36 inches. (Plastron Measurement) Although the largest tortoise he is the most docile and also the least to care about breeding. Males Sulcata Tortoises ranging from 20-25 inches are the most relentless when it comes to mating. This is also true as to them trying to exert there dominance towards other males. In our herd environment there is a hierarchy that gets established. The larger the tortoise and the heavier they are makes them the winner in every battle. Once males size up each other by pushing and shoving, the larger male becomes the victor. When males are the same size and weight, this is when they tend to not stop fighting until one or the other is hurt. We try to make sure the males in our group are a few inches different in size. This has helped a lot with being able to have multiple males in our group. 






Sulcata Hatchlings generally have the same look and appearance as other hatchlings in the same clutch. Naturally hatched hatchlings are 100% more stout then artificially hatched hatchlings. Meaning Sulcatas that emerge from the ground already have the yolk sacs absorbed, as where hatchlings from the incubator will have a large yolk sac still present and takes a few days if not a week to heal. Also noticed ground hatched specimens are over all stronger, more alert, and active. Natural hatching for our Sulcatas occurs with the monsoon rains in late summer early fall. Sulcatas hatch from their shells and sit in the egg chamber until the rains come, then they all emerge at once. Watering the nesting sites can also cause them to emerge. Some years if the rains are late, and the temperatures are too high, some clutches can cook to death underground while they are waiting to emerge. We create a shade for the nesting sites and try to keep the area some what hydrated by watering. Dry nest sites that were not shaded or kept some what moist produces a higher ratio of naturally mis-scuted animals. 






A.T.C. does maintain a group of Ivory Sulcatas, 100% Hets and a few that are 66% possible Het. This January was the first clutch laid of a possible Het Ivory, maybe in a couple months we will be able to update the thread with Ivory Sulcata hatchling photos and info. We are artificially incubating these to try to ensure a successful hatch. 






*Leopard Tortoises* are the second highest produced species here at the Compound. 
By maintaining a large group of both Pardalis Babcocki and Pardalis Pardalis has let us compare the differences in clutch sizes, incubation duration/temperatures as well as the diapause method. Needed to be stated our Babcocki groups is more mature then the Pardalis group. The largest Babcocki Leopard tortoise at our facility is 19 inches straight plastron measurement and the largest pardalis in our group is 16 inches. The Pardalis Pardalis Leopard tortoises are half the age of the Babcocki's and originally produced by the founder of the G.P.P. in the states - (Randy Limburg) as hatchlings over a decade ago. Our Babcocki's on average lay three clutches with 10-12 eggs during the months of September - January. These clutches hatch out during Spring. Some random clutches are found throughout the year making the number of clutches per female go above the average, but the main lay happens during these months. Pardalis Pardalis follow suit in laying during the same months as the Babcocki's but the Pardalis clutch sizes seem to be smaller in the number of eggs on average (6-10 eggs per cluch) and tend to lay more clutches per year. Naturally hatched Pardalis Pardalis will hatch out the following year with a few months added making the average duration 15 months. Both localities start and finish their nest sites with the hind legs only. Pardalis Pardalis are known for the double dot marking on the carapace of the shell and the Pardalis Babcocki are known for only having single dots. With producing a large number of hatchlings each year here at the compound, some Pardalis hatch with single dots and some Babcocki hatch out with double dots. (So when purchasing Pardalis Pardalis Leopard Tortoises make sure you buy from a reputable breeder that knows the true local of the tortoises. Some buyers could be fooled by purchasing off of the dot pattern only. Speckling on the skin is also a trait that can help tell if they are Pardalis Pardalis.) On average our Babcocki eggs take 150 days to hatch. Both natural and artificial incubation is done, with artificial temperatures between 85-87 degrees. We focused more on the temperatures and incubation time for the Pardalis since the artificial incubation process is fairly unknown. After a Pardalis clutch is laid, the eggs are washed and placed in a container with moist vermiculite as the substrate. Eggs are left at room temperature in a dark place for 2 weeks, from there the container of eggs are placed in a refrigerator at 60-66 degrees for 10-12 weeks. The eggs are pulled out and tempered at room temperature again for 1-2 weeks , then placed in the incubator at 85-87 degrees until they hatch. Incubation times have ranged from 6- 11 months. Further efforts of artificial incubation with the Pardalis Pardalis will lead us to a more exact method. Egg sizes as well as hatchling sizes are very close in size in both localities. The smallest Pardalis Pardalis to lay a clutch here at the compound was 13 inches, with the first clutch being infertile. 
*Pardalis Babcocki's*












*Pardalis Pardalis*






At A.T.C 100% Het for Sunset Hypo Leopard Tortoises are also maintained. At the present time we are currently producing 66% possible het hatchlings with a Het male and a normal female. Our female Het is still too young to breed. We are still on the fence about the Pink and Black Sunset Hypo Leopard Tortoises being a true genetic strain or not. But a few more years, we all will find out hopefully... 





more to come...


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## bouaboua

*RE: Arizona Tortoise Compound*

Nice. Nice, NICE! ! ! ! ! ! !

Thank you so much for sharing! ! ! ! !


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## motero

*RE: Arizona Tortoise Compound*

This is great, I love the location specific info. Great looking torts too.


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## DeanS

*RE: Arizona Tortoise Compound*

Nice show Andy! Great stock...and even greater results. Really curious to see how your ivory project turns out!


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## Tom

*RE: Arizona Tortoise Compound*



Az tortoise compound said:


> Sulcata Hatchlings generally have the same look and appearance as other hatchlings in the same clutch. Naturally hatched hatchlings are 100% more stout then artificially hatched hatchlings. Meaning Sulcatas that emerge from the ground already have the yolk sacs absorbed, as where hatchlings from the incubator will have a large yolk sac still present and takes a few days if not a week to heal. Also noticed ground hatched specimens are over all stronger, more alert, and active.




This is a great post. After all these years, I finally feel like I know a little something more about you guys.

I found your observations quoted above very interesting. I have ground hatched many at my place too. Your observations of heat and dry soil match mine exactly, but our observations of the hatchlings are different. My ground hatched ones are more wary, but I have found my artificially hatched babies to be stronger, more vigorous and better growers. Obviously not counting that first week in the brooder box. Activity levels and appetite have been similar for me. Its not that the ground hatched ones aren't also healthy and fine, but given a choice of which one I would prefer to send out or keep myself, I'd choose the indoor hatched ones. I wonder what the difference is. Our climates are pretty similar, but you have hotter nights in summer and are often just a little hotter than here. Your winters are similar to ours, but again, generally warmer nights. You guys warm up a little sooner in spring too, but otherwise pretty close. Maybe something in our early care routine could account for the difference?

I loved the info on the leopards too. Looking forward to whatever you learn about incubation techniques for the South Africans. I'm still a few years away, but I'll be there soon enough. I tried something with my sulcatas last year that I learned from Neal, and I'm going to try whenever my Gpp start laying eggs. Curious about your thoughts on it. Basically, Neal left all his leopard eggs in the ground, regardless of when they were laid, and then dug them all up and put them in the incubator once it got really hot in June. His hatch rates skyrocketed. I figured (possibly incorrectly) he might have some Gpp genetics mixed in to his herd somewhere, but there is no way to verify or deny that. I thought that maybe the cooler weather for eggs laid early in the year gave them sort of an informal diapuase. I tried this with some sulcata eggs, not thinking it would do much since sulcatas don't need a diapause, and it never really gets cool over there, but my hatch rates went from my normal 60-80% to almost 100% for every clutch. I also got bigger, more stout hatchlings, as if they were already head started a couple of weeks.

Good luck with the Ivories. Please let us know how that one turns out.


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## diamondbp

*RE: Arizona Tortoise Compound*

Thanks for taking the time to make this thread Andy. As a frequent customer of yours it's always nice to see a glimpse of where my tortoises come from. I look forward to additional information and photos of the legendary ATC lol 


BTW I noticed one of my pardalis I got from you in the baby group shot. lol Yes I analyze pictures that much


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## TortsNTurtles

*Arizona Tortoise Compound*

Thanks for sharing I enjoyed getting a glimpse of the compound.


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## cdmay

*RE: Arizona Tortoise Compound*

Neat stuff Andy. Love the G.p.p.
Do you work with any of the Greek tortoises? I got eggs from mine here in Florida but they were never fertile. Yet my hermanni hatched at nearly 100%.


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## wellington

Great pics. Love all the info.


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## T33's Torts

This is so awesome!


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## Team Gomberg

Thank you for sharing this. I found it very interesting.


> Once males size up each other by pushing and shoving, the larger male becomes the victor. When males are the same size and weight, this is when they tend to not stop fighting until one or the other is hurt. We try to make sure the males in our group are a few inches different in size. This has helped a lot with being able to have multiple males in our group.


 

Overall this was a great read. I look forward to more. Thank you


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## Az tortoise compound

Pardalis Pardalis Leopard Hatchling.



Pardalis Babcocki Leopard Hatchling.



Sulcata females nesting... 



....like many other tortoise species they do lay clutches at the entrance of their burrows.



Clutch of Sulcata Eggs.



Large males have a easier time holding down the females during mating. The females will try to move side to side to knock off the male if they are not interested. (Notice the drag marks in the ground behind the male)



Since male Leopard Tortoises are smaller then the females, we keep multiple males in our herds to try to ensure fertility in the females.






Thank you everyone for the kind words..

Cdmay, we do keep a few different sub species of Greek Tortoises and they do very well here in AZ. Greek info will also be added to this thread.

Tom, as to the Sulcata hatchlings with the time, care and detail you put into you hatchlings I can totally understand how your artificially hatched babies could be healthy in your opinion then naturally hatched ones. You have had eyes on them since day one and and have controlled every aspect of how they are coming along during the "brooder duration". Also you have tried many different methods and have came up with the perfect one for your situation, leaving you confident in your artificially hatched hatchlings. So very understandable that we have different opinions and or out comes.

Sulcata hatchlings collected from the enclosure that hatched naturally are are ready for new homes that day. Straight out of the ground, the hatchlings a lot of the time are found eating, sitting in water puddles or hiding in the smallest crevice they can squeeze into. If presented with food they will take to it right away. Before the hatchlings emerge from the ground, they have been hatched out for days if not sometimes weeks. They will hangout in the egg chamber until they are ready to come out, during this time in the chamber the egg sacs get absorbed and the humidity levels are high allowing the tortoises to completely escape the inner membrane of the egg and the scutes can start fusing together correctly. With the rains the hatchlings emerge so continued moisture and hydration happens. The distance they are found from the nest site can be quite far away, letting them get exercise and proving they are strong. Any hatchlings that were weak normally do not make it all the way out of the shell and or egg chamber, so the ones that do hatch are stout. We firmly believe fresh air and sunlight is the best things for tortoises, so if they are able to have that from day one of emerging we would prefer it. 

Sulcata hatchlings that hatch from the incubator emerge from the shell and still have a yolk sac present. They are left in the incubator until the sac is fully absorbed. This normally takes on average a week. Sometimes while the eggs sac is still present we will soak them for 5-10 mins and place them back into the incubator to stay the correct temperature while the sac is absorbing. Once absorption is complete we will again soak the hatchlings and place them into an enclosure, food is offered right away and not all of them starting eating right away. Some will, some dont. Before hatchlings can be shipped out we make sure they are eating and healthy. So more time is needed for artificial hatchings. Also like most others, if we see an egg pipped in the incubator, we might help the hatchling out of the shell a little bit. We try not to do this, reason being we might be helping a weak hatchling emerge that naturally would not be able to. In turn, this is helping along an already weak animal that might have a weak immune system, lack of strength or over all poor health. We are very blessed by being able to offer and let go of our hatchlings at a fast pace. Typically we do not have the hatchlings for longer then a month, but have a constant flow of them being produced so hatchling care is year round at the Compound. We do hold back some different species of hatchling and raise up for our personal stock .


Tom, as to the Leopards... I have also dug up clutches like Neal has and finished hatching them in the incubator. I have done this with Sri Lankan Stars, Sulcatas, Babcockis and Pardalis Pardalis. I didnt document what times of the year I did this and also didnt see or make me think that a higher hatch out was happening because of it. True ground temps are unknown in the egg chambers and the females mature more each year. With these factors I could not say. I can say that our females mature with every passing year and the clutches are over all more successful then the last. ( Tom,I do have a friend that is a firm believer that temperature fluctuation during the incubation process creates a more successful hatch, he has been working on it for awhile and hopefully I can get you that info down the road if you would like.)


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## Benjamin

Great thread! Could you post some pictures of your incubators please? Perhaps discuss your methods of artificial incubation as well?


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## Tom

Great info Andy. Thank you. I would love to hear any info on incubation from you or your friend. This is really a great thread, and I'm sure we'd all love to see more. I know I would.

Interesting that your sulcatas lay near the burrow entrance. Mine never did that. They all seemed to want to get as far away from there as possible. Many times when I'd see them pacing the wall and I knew another clutch was do, I'd put them over the wall and they would walk to the farthest corner of the 5 acre ranch and lay way down there. I know of just one instance of a CDT doing laying near the burrow entrance, but I have not seen it any other time with any other species. How frequently does this happen there?


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## DeanS

Az tortoise compound said:


> The largest male Sulcata at our facility is 36 inches. (Plastron Measurement) Although the largest tortoise he is the most docile and also the least to care about breeding. Males Sulcata Tortoises ranging from 20-25 inches are the most relentless when it comes to mating. This is also true as to them trying to exert there dominance towards other males. In our herd environment there is a hierarchy that gets established. The larger the tortoise and the heavier they are makes them the winner in every battle. Once males size up each other by pushing and shoving, the larger male becomes the victor. When males are the same size and weight, this is when they tend to not stop fighting until one or the other is hurt. We try to make sure the males in our group are a few inches different in size. This has helped a lot with being able to have multiple males in our group.



If you ever decide to part with him...I'd love first crack at him!


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## ALDABRAMAN

*Absolutely a fantastic thread! *


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## skottip

I wish I had the record keeping you do. lol Very impressive! I too am on the fence regarding the "Sunset Hypos"
Have they produced any F-2's yet?


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## Tim/Robin

skottip said:


> I wish I had the record keeping you do. lol Very impressive!



Impossible to keep good records with wild tortoises roaming your backyard Scott!!


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## Tropical Torts

Andrew this is an awesome thread. I have to agree on the lowest hatch rate per clutch with redfoots. Our average is close to 48%.


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## Az tortoise compound

Dean, you got it. I do offer 30 inch males from time to time. I know of two other males larger then my 36 inch. Ive been trying to aquire them, if that happens I will let go of the 36 incher.

John, glad to hear we are not the only ones with this problem. Our adult Redfoots are huge, males are constantly mating, setup and diet is perfect in the enclosure but fertility is so low. Our herd of 20 Redfoots can crush as much food as our Sulcatas and are pretty costly to maintain with such low reproduction.

Scott, we have been producing 66% possible het for Sunset with a 100% het male and a normal Pardalis Pardalis female. (they are actually 50% hets do to a het breeding a normal, a need to amend this on my classified ads) This is as far as we have gotten so far. (Talking about being on the fence, there might be big problems...) http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460141

Team Gomberg, you might also find interesting that some male Sulcatas during battles will try to bite each other. Every tortoise has its own personality and some males are out of control and will continue flipping the other male. Even when a male is upside down, they might get rammed and flip over again and again and again. When introducing new males into the group it can start out rough sometimes but normally ends well with the males mating the females.










Tom, the Sulcata females main nesting sites are away from the burrow but some drop where ever they would like. Ive had two females lay clutches in front of the burrow that I can remember. My Sonoran Desert Tortoises and California Desert Tortoises lay in front of the burrow. Our Texas Tortoises are not proven yet. My Eastern Hermanns do not have a burrow but do lay in front of the entrance to there home as well as inside of it. Ive seen Sri Lankan and Pancakes also lay at the entrance of there home. The Pancake Tortoises do live in a burrow we created for them....













Ben, here are pictures of our incubators. Nothing impressive but very functional. Hovabators are preferred and control the temps and moisture better then our large incubators. Wine chillers are used to cool different tortoise species eggs for diapause. 
























Our methods of artificial incubation.....

When eggs are collected we will normally but not always wash the eggs in preparation to go into the substrate for the incubators. We also prefer vermiculite, but will use perlite if that is the only thing available. Both work fine, but the perlite is a little too dusty for our liking. Sphagnum Moss is used for our tropical tortoise species' eggs. For our large incubator we use small plastic containers to hold the substrate and eggs. We fill the container 3/4 of the way with substrate, then add water while mixing the substrate so it is heavily soaked, make small divots into the substrate and place the eggs into the depressions. Effort is taken to try to keep the water that's added little above room temp. The top of the eggs will get marked with an X or some type of indication where the top is. This helps to ensure we do not rotate the eggs during the incubation process. Sometimes dates will be written on the eggs or just one egg of the clutch. Also an initial for which species the eggs are will be written on the egg with a charcoal pencil. Once everything is in place we will top off the eggs with more moistened substrate to where only the tip of the egg is showing. If they get completely covered that's okay too. The large incubator has different levels and also different temps. The top shell is the hottest at 87-89 degrees, middle stays around 86-87 and the bottom 85-86. Normally when the eggs are first placed into the incubator, they will be placed at the top. About half way through the process we will lower them a shelf and by the time they start hatching they are on the middle or bottom shelf. The very bottom of the incubator has two large shallow pans to hold water for the humidity. When we first started to hatch out babies, some had mis-scutes and makes for a harder sale. So advice from a friend we start them high then finish them a little cooler. This and keeping the humidity levels up has produced nice shelled tortoises for us. We really do not strive for a certain sex when artificially hatching, just looking for perfect shelled hatchlings. Sometimes we will have to add water into the incubator and the containers to increase the humidity. Again we try to match the water temps with the incubator temps when adding. The plastic containers are staggered to help the air flow in the incubator. A spray bottle is sometimes used to spray the doors down. Temp gun is always on hand. Thermometers are on each level, and a flash light is also close for candling. The hovabators are pretty much the same but we use the whole incubator bottom for the substrate. Again the substrate is heavily moistened, dish of water is added to the corner to help with humidity and these stay a constant temperature around 85-87. Warm summer days, the indoor temps increase and the incubators do also. Same goes for winter, the inside temps will lower so the incubator temps will lower a bit. So at least twice a year we will have to adjust the temps a touch. Normally incubators are checked daily, we are always concerned if everything is going okay in there.

















While eggs are cooking in the incubator, we candle them from time to time to see if there is life. This is what we like to see....






This is what we do not like to see....






When we see hatchling start to pip out we will try not to open the doors or the incubator lids for a few days. In the past we would open the doors too often and the inner membrane of the egg would start drying out. If this happens sometimes the hatchlings will get trapped and not make it out of the egg on there own. Hatchlings are left in the incubator on the substrate until their belly buttons are fully healed. Sometimes we might soak the hatchlings in a shallow dish of lukewarm water before their bellies are healed and we do soak them once we take them out of the incubators. 





We will be touching on Russian Tortoises (Testudo horsfieldi) next/soon ........


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## Tom

How do you "wash" the eggs, and why?

This is great info Andy. Thank you. Looking forward to the next installment.


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## motero

Fantastic! This is great.


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## bouaboua

Thank you for sharing all those information. 

I will come to you for my next purchasing of Tortoise. You have couple species that I'm very interested. Specially the one species that you did not mention here.


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## Az tortoise compound

Tom, some clutches of eggs will get washed if they are really dirty or contaminated with something. Cleaner eggs make for a clean incubator.
Sometimes, flies can get into the incubator or other bugs if the eggs don't get washed. 

If you zoom in on the egg chamber in this photo you will see some feces. These eggs got washed.



The eggs in the photos of the demonstration of how we place them in the incubator. Those were not washed but collected as they dropped so they stayed clean.


*Russian Tortoises (Testudo horsfieldi)* 













Here at A.T.C we get a kick out of our Russian Tortoises. They are so active and full of life. Over the years we have raised many 4 inch imported Russians to adulthood and have never seen a female Russian lay a clutch of eggs that was under 5 3/4 inches straight plastron measurment. The larger the female, better the production (larger clutch sizes). Most all of our female Russians have topped out at 8 inches. Russian Tortoise clutch sizes are fairly small compared to other species. Typically the first clutches are laid after hibernation around February, March. This can fluctuate depending on the year and weather. The first clutches are always the largest clutch for the year, normally consisting of four eggs. Most females will lay two to three clutches a year that we have noticed. The second and third clutches are normally always 1 -2 egg. The largest clutch at the Compound from a Russian Tortoise was five eggs. February through June are the months they are most active with nesting and breeding behaviors. Males are always on point and seem to only want to focus on breeding. Many times they will even pass up the choice pieces of food and head straight for the females. Much success with fertility has been noticed with a ratio of one male to every three females. As stated in the beginning of this thread, a ratio of 9 out of 10 Russian eggs hatch out here at the Compound. When female Russians start nesting they will find a nice location and begin by digging out an egg chamber with their back legs. Nests are normally pretty shallow at 2-3 inches under the substrate. Some females will have a pallet or a nitch under some brush where they will escape the heat of the day. Nesting behaviors have been seen in these locations and clutch depth is deeper by a few inches. Some females have been seen with their bodies half way under ground while beginning to start the egg chamber. Artificial incubation time is quite fast averaging 60 days. During the fall months after estivation from late September to early December we notice the last clutches for the year being laid. Clutches left in the ground to hatch naturally will pop up throughout the year depending on when the clutch was laid. Fall clutched hatch in Spring, Spring clutches hatch in Summer and so on. Not every clutch is seen being laid, but it appears that the number of clutches each female Russian lays in a year can fluctuate from 2-3. This might be just our group or lack of observations of our group. (something for us to explore further...) All of our tortoise enclosures have a ''moist'' and ''dry'' side. The "moist" side is where most of the vegetation is grown and this is the side the females normally choose to nest in. 

Example of a Russian hanging out in a "pallet". 



Example of a shallow nest...



Example of a deep nest site...



Example of a male Russian upsetting the nesting female....





Russian Tortoise eggs are small and oblong in shape. Incubation temperatures are maintained at the average of 85-87 degrees normally always resulting in perfect shelled hatchlings. Typically after 3 weeks into the incubation process we will check the eggs to see if they are viable. Veining throughout the eggs will appear a couple weeks after that. Around 8 and half weeks they will start to hatch. Hatchlings are still slightly folded down the length of there body when they emerge from the egg with a slight yolk sac still visible. (When tortoises hatch, their scutes are not technically joined together. Over time the scutes will slowly grow and fuse together.) After a good soak and a couple days the hatchlings will be perfectly round and about the size of a quarter. 










Check of the 2014 Annual Reptiles Magazine for a further in depth look into how we provide Captive Care for this species.


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## Az tortoise compound

One of our Russian Tortoise females decided to set a new record by laying a clutch of six eggs today..... largest clutch so far to be documented at the Compound.


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## jtrux

Very nice. I enjoyed reading it.


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## Az tortoise compound

Forgive us, its been busy around here at the Compound....

Well the first clutch laid from the first female possible het for Ivory Sulcata Tortoise proved out making her a hundred percent het for the Ivory gene. Here is a few pictures of the hatchlings. Six out of 20 eggs hatched as Ivories, 2 eggs were infertile and one is still progressing but has not hatched.




As requested, we will touch on Greek Tortoises next.....

*Greek Tortoises *at A.T.C. are separated by localities and or sub species or just simply colorization. With Greek Tortoises being one of the hardest groups of tortoises to be able to tell true localities by breeders and biologists alike , we have to rely on physical characteristics as well as the region of export (if acquiring farm raised or wild caught specimens) to be able to help determine true locality or sub species. Many times, a region of export for example might be Jordan but many tortoises are collected from outlining regions such as Syria, Iran, Lebanon, Israel, ect and brought to that export location as one locality. Same goes for the different Greek sub species brought into the US from Africa, those could consist of North Africa, South Morocco, North Morocco, ect but are all brought into the country under Ibera Greek Tortoises. Also many people think that "Golden" Greek Tortoises are a separate sub species of there own. That is not true, this is a color classification that could consist of many different localities/sub species. So in the end we fall back on the good old wikipedia for reference and also the market classifications such as "Golden".

As Wikipedia currently has the Spur-Thighed Tortoise defined -
"The division of spur-thighed tortoises into subspecies is difficult and confusing. Given the huge range over three continents, the various terrains, climates, and biotopes have produced a huge number of varieties, with new subspecies constantly being discovered. Currently, at least 20 subspecies are published:

_T. g. graeca_ (North Africa and South Spain)
_T. g. soussensis_ (South Morocco)
_T. g. marokkensis_ (North Morocco)
_T. g. nabeulensis_ - Tunisian spur-thighed tortoise (Tunisia)
_T. g. cyrenaica_ (Libya)
_T. g. ibera_ (Turkey)
_T. g. armeniaca_ - Armenian tortoise (Armenia)
_T. g. buxtoni_ (Caspian Sea)
_T. g. terrestris_ (Israel/Lebanon)
_T. g. zarudnyi_ (Iran/Azerbaijan)
_T. g. whitei_ (Algeria)"
So the way we brake down our personal groups of Greek Tortoises is "Golden" Greeks,
"Ibera" Greeks, "Syrian" Greeks, "Libyan" Greeks, "Buxtoni" Greeks, and "Morocco" Greeks.
Each of our groups could have different localities within them. As the years progress we might brake down the groups further while acquiring more. If the scientific community comes up with a better plan, we will follow suit....

*Golden Greek Tortoises* -












Each year in Spring after hibernation, all the different Greek groups start to emerge. Golden Greek Tortoises are the first to start laying. The clutches normally consist of 5-7 eggs and are laid in late February. Each female will lay multipule clutches through out the year during the Spring and Fall months. The second or third clutches laid before Summer hits are normally smaller in numbers, around 2 eggs in a clutch. Again during the Fall months clutches are larger then the last ones laid before winter. The eggs of all of our different kinds of Greek are on the average the same size and shape. The larger more mature females will lay slightly larger eggs. Clutches that we leave in the ground will hatch naturally here without any problems. Fall clutches hatch in Spring, Spring clutches hatch in the Fall.



During the Spring months is when we will dig up about 2/3rd of all the clutches laid and incubate them artificially. By doing this, it lets us have hatchlings available to the public sooner then if left in the ground. Most of the clutches are found 3-6 inches down in the substrate. Golden Greeks are very sneaking when it comes to laying their clutches. Most are found inside the homes where they sleep. Incubation temps average around 86 degrees across the board and they will start to hatch after 70 days and some could take up to 100 days. Their eggs are rounded and somewhat oblong at times. They are about 1/3 the size of a chicken's egg. Fertility and hatching is at about 50-60% for our group.


*
Ibera Greek Tortoises* -







As to where Golden Greek Tortoises are first to lay, our Ibera Greek group is the last of the different Greeks to begin laying clutches for the year, This normally starts around the middle to end of April. The eggs sizes, incubation times and incubation temperatures are the same as the other Greeks. The only thing we find to be different is the clutch sizes of the Iberas. They normally average 6-12 eggs in a clutch. (which is larger then the other groups). (Pictured below is a female that laid so many her nest was not deep enough to hold them all....)


Our Ibera Greek group consists of tortoises that range in a lot of different colorization. Some are jet "Black", some Blue/Green, some Olive, while others range from brown to almost solid yellow. 
(it will only let us post 20 pictures at a time per post. ill go ahead and post this, then continue on with Iberas and the rest of the different groups of Greek Tortoises at a later time.....)


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## Az tortoise compound

Ibera Greeks continued...





Again, here are a few examples of the different colorization that consist in our adult groups, A couple pictures show how large they become at "full grown" statue. During breeding season, at any given time, at least two if not three males will be following the females around the enclosure.





















Adult Ibera's are normally found laying clutches near or at a base of a shrub or plant, generally a higher humidity or moist area. Being larger then most other Greeks, their nest sites are deposited deeper in the substrate around six inches or more. Hatchlings very much resemble the dam and sire that produced them, meaning black and green adults will not give off yellow or brown offspring. When hatchlings emerge from the ground, if they are covered in mud they can be very hard to locate. On the other hand, if it rained and they are clean shelled, they sparkle and are very easy to spot in the enclosure. Its always nice to find that first hatchling, because you know more are around somewhere....










*Syrian Greek Tortoises* - 

These are the most common Imported Greek Tortoise over the last 7 or so years. People refer to these as a few different names but the most common is either Syrian or Mid-Eastern Greeks. Our adults range in a few different colors and shell pattern design. Some people confuse these with Golden Greeks and sometimes Libyan Greeks. They are a very hardy species that seemingly does very well for being highly imported tortoise. 




























Our Syrian's lay 4-6 eggs with four being more of the average. Most of the nest sites are found inside their homes when we dig through the bedding. Some clutches are also laid around the base of different fountain grasses. Again eggs sizes are consistent with most other sub-species. 





















Libyan Greeks, Moroccan Greeks, Tunisian Greeks and Caspian Sea Greeks Tortoises will be added shortly to this thread....


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## Az tortoise compound

Libyan Greek Tortoises - 

Our Libyan Greek Tortoises are fairly new to our Compound compared to the other Greeks so far listed above. Highly distinguishable and valued, Libyan Greeks Tortoises are very easy to spot out. Their speckled shell pattern are very light to a duller caramel colorization. They are very comparable to Golden Greek Tortoises care,size and temperament. So far we have not incubated or dug up any of their clutches yet. 2015 we will have hatchlings and more insight...





















Moroccan Greeks, Tunisian Greeks and Caspian Sea Greeks are the other sub species that 
we are currently raising up for future bredding purposes...


*Caspian Sea Greeks* -











*Tunisian Greeks -*
*





















Moroccan Greeks -
















*


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## motero

Wow! What Lookers!


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## Anthony P

Love this thread, Andrew! We are all lucky that you've taken the time to share what's taken you years to learn. Not everyone is willing to do that.


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## naturalman91

is there any reason or a theory of yours as why your redfoot rate is lower?


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## Nijia_Tortoise

Thank you so much for sharing!!! I wish I can visit your place some day even though I do not have torts right now. Lol


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

Andrew 
It's great to hear from you again we need to talk again like we did in Nov. at the show . Good luck , and have a great tort day ! 
George


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## Maro2Bear

Really, really great thread with super pictures coupled with solid information. As others have said, thank you for taking the time to capture this info and post it here!


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## puffy137

Brilliant contribution , thank you so much. Its rare to find such generosity of sharing. Amazing. Thanks again


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## Az tortoise compound

Yes, it was awesome meeting you at the TTPG Conference George!

Thank you everyone for the kind words, we will continue to work on this thread and try to bring more insights.

Questions are more then welcome on this thread, so keep em coming.

David, as per your question about our Redfoot viability being low.... I believe it is to be many different reasons.
A majority of our breeding groups we have cycled out the low productive individuals and replaced with better ones as well as keeping 
males around that are sexually aggressive. The Redfoots we have not really done this to yet and the majority of the group are long term captives with only a few captive bred individuals. I believe old mature tortoises that have been established for long term in there environment have an increased production and fertility. Laying of the clutches from the Redfoot are not the problem, but the fertility of the clutches is.


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## Carol S

I really enjoyed all the pictures and information. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SHARING!!


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## turtlemanfla88

Andy, 
Thank you so much. One of these years if I can make it to the TTPG conference I would love to do the tour that they do at your place.
I can not wait to see next about the Russians. I think I might have two species or sub-species. Can i send you pics of them.
The old owner had this pair for 18+ years and just started laying eggs then gave them to me. I live in Florida one thing I learned with keeping Russian here they can take it cold and dry not cold and rainy. I bring them it if it is cold and rainy even though they have houses.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

Turtlemanfla88
It's Dec. now and the TTPG Conf. Is in Nov . Save a little every week and I will get to meet you next year . 
Andy 
Get him to come visit us in Nov .


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## Az tortoise compound

Turtlemanfla88, sure send over the pics. Last year we had members from the California Turtle and Tortoise Club come take a tour after the TTPG Conference. Anyone that can make it to the TTPG meeting is welcome to stop by afterwards. 

We will get another species started on this thread very soon....


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## TortsNTurtles

I am looking forward to the future posts  Pancakes or Box Turtles ?!


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## argus333

this is all great info. publish this into book!


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

Az tortoise compound said:


> Turtlemanfla88, sure send over the pics. Last year we had members from the California Turtle and Tortoise Club come take a tour after the TTPG Conference. Anyone that can make it to the TTPG meeting is welcome to stop by afterwards.
> 
> We will get another species started on this thread very soon....


Yes pancakes and Egypations .


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## Tidgy's Dad

Really great thread, Andy.
But sulking as it's been so long since the last one.
We are greedy for more.


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## Tortiose Guy

Thanks for sharing!!


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## Merrick

What an awesome thread can't wait to see more


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## clintdowns

ATC, which typs of incubators do you use.


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## Sarah_Marie

Such great info. Thanks for posting


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## awesomecs

motero said:


> *RE: Arizona Tortoise Compound*
> 
> This is great, I love the location specific info. Great looking torts too.



um isint that overcrowded dude but nice stock might buy from you when I'm 16


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## awesomecs

RUSSAIN TORTOISE PLEASE DO DA RUSSAINS WOOOOOH MAN WOOOOH GREAT JOB


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## Merrick

awesomecs said:


> RUSSAIN TORTOISE PLEASE DO DA RUSSAINS WOOOOOH MAN WOOOOH GREAT JOB


I thought they already did one


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## awesomecs

Merrick said:


> I thought they already did one




lol I dint see it


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## tink737

Great information.


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## Az tortoise compound

Okay, we will get this going again... thanks for the kind words. We will try to get to all the species you guys listed this year.
So, a bit of an update on the previous species we listed already , then on to the next species.

*Albinos Sulcatas* - We have already covered Sulcata Tortoises and they all are doing awesome by the way. 2015 was our best hatching of Ivories so far! Still two more possible hets to prove out so, each year could be better. Also this past 2015 we attempted to create double heterozygous Ivory/Albino Sulcata hatchlings. (These would be normal looking sulcata hatchlings but would be het for both Ivory and Albino). A good friend sent over a virgin adult female Albino Sulcata to breed with our male Ivory Sulcata. Creating double hets and and raising them to adulthood then breeding them is a long term project but we need our kids and grand kids to be able to have fun with genetics too. So after a few weeks of the virgin Albino being with the male Ivory, she started to nest.... We collect up 18 eggs and rushed them off to the incubators. After a good 100- 110 days or so, we started to have the clutch hatch. Come to find out, all that were hatching were Albinos and no double hets  The virgin female, come to find out was not a virgin and must of been mated with one of our friends male Albinos before she got here. So our attempt at double hets for 2015 was a bust...but we are able to claim we hatched the first Albino Sulcata hatchling that was produced from Albino to Albino and breed in Arizona with eggs laid and hatched at our location This wonderful friend does have a couple more young female Albinos and we will be attempting double hets again in the future. We are now offering Albino Sulcata hatchlings each year to the public through our site.Here are some photos to showcase our efforts... First photos are of the female Albino, then the Ivory male mating and finally the eggs hatching.




[/URL][/IMG]


























*Chaco Tortoises - *We are very luck here at A.T.C. to be able to maintain this species as well as have an environment that works well for the South American Desert Tortoise, aka the Chaco! Living in Arizona and being use to the native Gopherus Tortoises such as the Sonoran and Mojave, keeping the Chaco is very much identical. This species enjoys warm, dry climates with adequate shading and water reserves. While adult Chacos resemble a small yearling Sulcata, this species is much different. Depending on the locality of the Chaco Tortoise most will grow and top out around 6 -10 inches. Our largest proven female here at the Compound is a young animal and measures 7-8 inches and is in it's second year of laying. All the males in our group are right at the 6 inch mark. The size and colorizations of our group of Chacos makes us think they are the _C. chilensis and not the C. petersi, and or C. donosobarrosi. _Here are a few photos of the adults.














The last picture posted above is a female Chaco Tortoise nesting.... for this species we have not dug up any eggs to bring into the incubators as of yet. Being so close to the native Desert Tortoises traits and characteristics, and many Chaco Tortoise Keepers having a hard time incubating their eggs, we just leave them in the ground to hatch naturally. Arizona's seasons create a natural diapause cycle for tortoise eggs left in the ground. So if this species needs it or not it is able to do so. So far we have found hatchlings in the enclosures during September when most of the natural hatches occur here in AZ. Pictures below are some hatchlings and also a picture showing what they look like when you spot them in the enclosure.(right before you jump up and down with excitement).


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## Az tortoise compound

To reply to awesomecs post - "um isint that overcrowded dude but nice stock might buy from you when I'm 16"

Overcrowding can be a huge health risk for tortoises. All tortoises are feces eaters and that is the number one way for them to get each other sick besides basic contact. An over crowed enclosure can also lead to the tortoises water dish getting built up with too much feces and passing along sicknesses. At Arizona Tortoise Compound we maintain a huge variety of tortoise species but most of our groups are manageable numbers. Once some of our tortoises species get setup nicely in a herd or colony setting, we will close that group. Meaning we will not introduce more tortoises into that enclosure, we will start a second enclosure and create a second herd if we need to increase our total number of breeders. Our space limitation is what determines the size of our groups. All species and sub species are housed separately and prevention of cross contamination is always in the fore front of our minds. Even when we purchasing tortoises, from adults to hatchlings, we have to keep them separated from other groups until we are for sure the tortoises are not carrying an hidden pathogens or bacteria's. Most fecal testing is done in house but we do have a close working relationship with a great local veterinarian. Also many of our customers are vet techs, veterinarians, zoos and other organizations that do their own testing once they receive tortoises from us and provide feed back. A lot of the first time tortoise buyers are now taking there tortoises in for a vet once they receive their new tortoise. While tortoises are long lived we always recommend annual vet check ups for your tortoises. Annual preventative care is also done here as well, from fecal testing to de-worming. With most all of our tortoises living outdoors, they go through seasonal and temperature changes. This can play a role on their health depending. We try to be pro-active and think about their needs before they need it. Its always a learning experience and that's what makes tortoise keeping so awesome.

We will touch on the Hermann's Tortoise next and the three sub-species we maintain...


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## hingeback

[/QUOTE]
Hi, great info. What happens when the egg looks like that? Why is it a bad?


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## Az tortoise compound

That eggs does appear to be "bad". There is black speckling that is around the shell and that is bits of mold. Also with the light shining through you can see a clear separation of the inside contents and the air pocket. If the egg was fertile the black part would be see through with flesh tones and or veining. The black coloration is also mold that took over. Further more, at this stage the egg should have some type of a liquid movement inside of it, the eggs appears to be dried up in the photo you provided. Keep up the good work, hopefully the next set of eggs will be viable for you.


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## hingeback

Az tortoise compound said:


> That eggs does appear to be "bad". There is black speckling that is around the shell and that is bits of mold. Also with the light shining through you can see a clear separation of the inside contents and the air pocket. If the egg was fertile the black part would be see through with flesh tones and or veining. The black coloration is also mold that took over. Further more, at this stage the egg should have some type of a liquid movement inside of it, the eggs appears to be dried up in the photo you provided. Keep up the good work, hopefully the next set of eggs will be viable for you.


No, that wasn't my egg. I was quoting your post... Here is the first and third egg of my tort.



This is the second egg, is it okay?



The fourth one should be too early to candle.
1st egg-day 42
2nd egg-day 41
3rd egg-day 38
4th egg-day 3


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## Az tortoise compound

Oh, I'm with ya. We just recently started hatching Home's hatchlings last year. Normally around the 30 day mark we notice veining on the fertile eggs. Also far, once eggs are laid we place them right into the incubators without cooling them down first. Their hatch rate is about average for tortoises roughly 100 days give or take. We will keep track of our hingeback groups incubation duration and temperatures and create a thread on them as well. Here is a couple photos of some of our hatchlings. The last picture is of a couple of ours and a couple from a friends hatch as well.


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## mark109r

Would love to hear about, and see some pics of your spiders! Thanks for starting this thread, it's been very informative.


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

mark109r said:


> Would love to hear about, and see some pics of your spiders! Thanks for starting this thread, it's been very informative.


Andy don't only sell torts but he and his wife love them also !


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## awesomecs

Az tortoise compound said:


> To reply to awesomecs post - "um isint that overcrowded dude but nice stock might buy from you when I'm 16"
> 
> Overcrowding can be a huge health risk for tortoises. All tortoises are feces eaters and that is the number one way for them to get each other sick besides basic contact. An over crowed enclosure can also lead to the tortoises water dish getting built up with too much feces and passing along sicknesses. At Arizona Tortoise Compound we maintain a huge variety of tortoise species but most of our groups are manageable numbers. Once some of our tortoises species get setup nicely in a herd or colony setting, we will close that group. Meaning we will not introduce more tortoises into that enclosure, we will start a second enclosure and create a second herd if we need to increase our total number of breeders. Our space limitation is what determines the size of our groups. All species and sub species are housed separately and prevention of cross contamination is always in the fore front of our minds. Even when we purchasing tortoises, from adults to hatchlings, we have to keep them separated from other groups until we are for sure the tortoises are not carrying an hidden pathogens or bacteria's. Most fecal testing is done in house but we do have a close working relationship with a great local veterinarian. Also many of our customers are vet techs, veterinarians, zoos and other organizations that do their own testing once they receive tortoises from us and provide feed back. A lot of the first time tortoise buyers are now taking there tortoises in for a vet once they receive their new tortoise. While tortoises are long lived we always recommend annual vet check ups for your tortoises. Annual preventative care is also done here as well, from fecal testing to de-worming. With most all of our tortoises living outdoors, they go through seasonal and temperature changes. This can play a role on their health depending. We try to be pro-active and think about their needs before they need it. Its always a learning experience and that's what makes tortoise keeping so awesome.
> 
> We will touch on the Hermann's Tortoise next and the three sub-species we maintain...


Thanks for clearing that up


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## bouaboua

Like! ! ! ! ! !


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## Bre Hopkins

I have a question since I live in az too my female about 22 inches and my male about 16 inches tend to break into each other pens and mate , I didn't think he was mature enough to actually get the job done since he will mount any part of her , but yesterday she laid eggs , I was shocked and so excited at the same time but I have never done the egg thing and really only found out like 8 months ago he was a male so I separated them , my question is , is it safe to just leave the eggs in the ground with a little fence around them ? And if so is there anything I need to do as far as watering the nest site I read you will hose yours down how often do you do that? I don't have the heart to destroy them I have babies I purchased online so I know how to raise torts just not from the beginning , please don't be mean like I said I separated them but they are tanks and break into each others pens , I appreciate any advise


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

Well Bre 
I live in Phx , AZ ! I don't have your tanks but I leave some of my Leopards eggs out side and my Russians , Greeks , and Herrmans and Box turtles . And I water their enclosures everyday . But you must watch for ants cause they will eat all the eggs if they find a nest !


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## Bre Hopkins

Thanks so much for the response, I live in congress so its a little bit cooler then phoenix and am a little worried about cooler nights too


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## Grandpa Turtle 144

Bre Hopkins said:


> Thanks so much for the response, I live in congress so its a little bit cooler then phoenix and am a little worried about cooler nights too


I can't remember if it was @Tom or @ Will that was talking about tort eggs cool and warm hatching eggs ! But you'll have to talk to them . Sorry that I can't help more .


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## wellington

Just got caught back up with this fantastic thread. If there is a way for you to take a big pic of the whole compound, I would love to see it, as I'm sure others would too.


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## seanang168

Hi Thanks for this thread. My 20 year olds Star tortoise has been laying eggs since 2008 but I never have any success with her. The male is rather smaller in size and I am not sure if they mated properly.

Anyway I am from South East Asia and our Temperature is generally between 81F to 89F the whole year and humidity level is high like 90%.

Can you advise on the vermiculite and water ratio? I saw some people propose a 1:1 ratio. Do you think it will be too wet for me? Also do we need to mist the incubation and what is the frequency of misting? I read that we shouldnt get the eggs wet during incubation. I am using a small incubator brinsea octagon 10. I think could only house like 5 eggs. 

My Tortoise just laid an egg on 14 May 2017.


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