# Why do people use vivariums?



## Watermelon

I know that outdoor enclosures in sunny weather are best however for indoors I use a tortoise table and I have read on here that some people use vivariums and would just like to know out of interest why really! Has there been any other research other than what Tortoise Trust has done and found different results? Also on the tortoise trust usually if anyone posts saying they use a vivarium for their tortoises they are told straight away to get rid of the tank and to make a tort table and on this forum it doesn't seem to be the same. (Not that I've read so far anyway!) Are people too polite to say get rid of the vivarium or do people on here think vivariums are alright?

On tortoise trust it says:

The first thing to point out is that as a general rule, tortoises of all kinds are not well-suited to indoor, vivarium-style maintenance. If you want an animal that will be happy, and do well, in a vivarium environment â€“ donâ€™t get a tortoise. Get a gecko or other small lizard.

Reasons why:

Poor ventilation. There is a high incidence of tortoises developing â€˜Runny Nose Syndromeâ€™, other respiratory diseases, and shell infections if kept in small fully enclosed type glass or wooden vivarium-style housing. Specifically, the lack of ventilation can result in mould, fungus and similar problems arising. There are ways to improve this situation, including forced-air ventilation, but this does add to complexity and cost.
Lack of temperature gradients. A small enclosed vivarium is likely to be unsuitable for any species that requires a temperature gradient, or differential, to enable self-selection of body temperature. Failure to provide this will have very serious long-term consequences for health. Again, this can be overcome if very large units are employed.
Lack of microclimates. All but the very largest â€˜tankâ€™ systems will have inadequate space and temperature gradients (see above) to permit the tortoise to self-select a suitable microclimate. Again, this has important consequences for long-term health and in addition such deprivation will result in unavoidable stress
Lack of â€œinterestâ€ and boredom. Tortoises that are kept in small enclosed "tanks" tend to exhibit lethargy (inactivity) and other unnatural behaviour patterns. By contrast, tortoises in suitable outdoor enclosures, or suitably large and well-designed indoor enclosures, will be much more alert and active.
Hygiene. Enclosed vivarium-style enclosures tend to be difficult to maintain, and pathogens can build up rapidly. This is one of the reasons we see so many sick animals that have a history of being kept in such accommodation.
Cost. Vivarium and glass â€œfish tankâ€ enclosures are extremely costly per square inch of usable space for a tortoise. Tortoises only need sides that are high enough to prevent escape. Fish tanks in particular are designed to provide maximum cubic capacity, not maximum floor area (which is what really matters to a tortoise). Spend the available budget creating as much FLOOR AREA as possible. Don't waste it on other things.

P.S one thing I've always been told is that tortoises get stressed because of the glass is see through, they think they can walk through it so this makes them stressed and unhappy.

Here is a report on vivariums by tortoise trust:

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/vivreport.html

Does anyone disagree with what the tortoise trust says? what are your opinions. 

Sorry if this has been discussed already!

Thanks!


----------



## jackrat

I use a vivarium because it works. Splendidly so. As for ventilation,there are no problems,as ventilation is built in. The main reason I use it is for maintaining humidity. With a dirt and compost substrate that gets watered daily,along with the plants,humidity stays in the 65-80% range. My little redfoot loves it. As for mold and fungus,there will always be some of both anytime there is decomposing vegetable matter. And worms,too. Lots of the nasty things he loves to eat. I'm pretty sure the Tortoise Trust wouldn't care for my vivarium. LOL


----------



## Tom

This has been discussed here many times. Several things need to be taken into consideration. Species, age/size, where in the world you live, etc...

Some species, like the whole genus of Testudo, which is very prevalent in the UK, seem to grow up fine and smooth in a tortoise table. But if you raise a redfoot, leopard or sulcata in a typical American home in a tortoise table you will get to watch pyramiding develop before your eyes. Most American homes are heated and cooled, both of which dry out the air. This unnatural dryness is a major contributing factor to pyramiding in at least SOME species.

In my experience sulcatas and leopards are NOT prone to any kind of shell rot. I've asked several vets who specialize in torts and out of all of them, there were only two shell rot cases. One was a leopard that had been previously severely chewed on by a dog and the wound area became infected. The other was a sulcata that slept partially submerged due to a broken pipe that was not discovered all winter long with no heat and occasional below freezing temps. I keep mine downright swampy and I never seen the slightest hint of shell rot.

If they are allowed to get cold and damp at the same time respiratory infections ARE a possibility. However, with WARM and humid/wet conditions, I have never seen this happen.

The right substrate will prevent any sort of mold or fungus in an aquarium type set up too.

I use glass tanks specifically FOR the reasons the TT says they are bad. They do restrict air flow. This helps me maintain the warmth and humidity the I am trying to achieve. The higher sides do the same thing. I'm able to use lower wattage bulbs and heating elements to achieve the same temps. In 32 years of using glass tanks for chelonians, I have never had a single problem with stress or any of the other "detriments" listed by the TT.

For the most part, I think that is old, outdated info and we know better now. It IS still appropriate for some species some of the time. For example, if you had a fully grown russian tortoise, I think a tortoise table would be a great way to house him when indoors. If however you have a hatchling sulcata, in a typical American home, I don't think a tortoise table is the way to go at all.


----------



## Watermelon

As I said I'm sorry if its been discussed here before, I haven't been a member here for very long so I haven't seen much on it.

Thanks for your opinions, what the tortoise trust says isn't the be all and end all then.


----------



## October

I use a 20 gallon fish tank, that I had previously used for fish and had sitting around. It's temporary, as as soon these babies are big enough they're getting the boot outside.  

I don't have an issue with ventilation. Because of the lamp in the top, there is a big open hole. The temp in that part of the tank is higher than my ambient house temps, so that air is constantly raising and drawing in fresh air. The substrate I use doesn't mold. 

I also don't have issues maintaining temp gradients. The cool side, in the last 24 hours according to my temp gauge, has fluctuated between 77* and 84*. The basking spot hits about 110*. All 4 burrows maintain different temps between the high and low temps, depending on how close they are to the basking lamp. 

Microclimates and temp gradients are very similar. See above. 

My little guys are always exploring and digging. I change up their tank often and move things around so they stay interested. They get plenty of outdoor exercise too. 

I don't have many issues keeping things clean. Selective spot cleaning and occasional switch outs do wonders.

Cost, well, I think I bought this tank from a friend for like $15. 

They don't seem to get stressed with the glass. In fact, one of their favorite basking spots is a high ledge overlooking the commotion going on in the room. They especially like to watch the dog, it seems.

The main reason I personally use a tank is to maintain humidity. When I take my humidity probe out of the tank to clean or whatnot, the reading bottoms out at 16% which is the lowest reading it will go. It's probably much lower than that. The humidity in the tank in the last 24 hours has been between 99% (probably when I misted it all down) and 81%. That would be flat impossible in a tort table, for me.


----------



## GeoTerraTestudo

Each of my Russians has its own, separate 55-gallon plastic tub for a home (not a terrarium). However, they also get a lot of outdoor time, too.


----------



## Az tortoise compound

"The first thing to point out is that as a general rule, tortoises of all kinds are not well-suited to indoor, vivarium-style maintenance. If you want an animal that will be happy, and do well, in a vivarium environment â€“ donâ€™t get a tortoise. Get a gecko or other small lizard."

Tell that to TerryO.....Pio is the best reason to disregard this outdated advice


----------



## Watermelon

Maybe tortoise trust should update then? I don't mean to offend anyone by the way.... I'm just interested and want to learn.


----------



## stells

The TT.... is just one of many mantra's... Viv's can be used very successful and are of particular benefit... to hatchlings and tropical species... esp when living in colder climates...

I don't use them... i have table tops... but can see the benefit of them in some of the colder draughty houses in the little old UK...


----------



## Watermelon

I wonder if the Tortoise Trust would admit it is outdated now? Or if I posted the same question I would get similar replies!

Thank you for replies, I now know that vivariums are not as bad as Tortoise Trust make out.


----------



## Madkins007

It is mostly an issue of knowledge. Sure, if you try to raise most torts in a tank like most snakes or lizards, you have EXACTLY the issues TT discusses. One key difference between chelonians and (other) reptiles- or even fish- is that chelonians need a lot of horizontal space, while lizards, snakes, fish, etc. can use the vertical space more efficiently. 

However, KNOWING the problems of the typical vivarium, they can all be overcome and many of the negatives become positives for some situations, as discussed earlier.

IS TT wrong or outdated? I would say they are 'over-protective'. Vivariums, plain lettuce or cabbage diets, and other bad practices from the past tend to cause a certain over-reaction in many people. Many of us remember the problems of using nail polish on turtle shells for decoration, and it is easy to get very 'verbal' when someone mentions something that triggers those memories- like someone asking about painting an ID number on the shell or something. It is often hard to carefully dissect the bad elements from the neutral or even good aspects of some issues.


----------



## Tom

Very good point Mick.

Watermelon, no one is at all offended by your question. Personally, I was happy about it as I'm eager to share what I have learned in the past few years and "get the word out". And Kelly (Stells) above is a very knowledgeable and accomplished tortoise keeper from YOUR side of the pond, her advice and opinion ought to carry more weight than ours over here in the states in my opinion. She raises some very attractive tortoises too.


----------



## Jacqui

*reads the thread, then looks up from the laptop at all the glass tanks....*

Why do I use my glass tanks? (and I will say during the winter I had I believe it was 15 glass tanks in use) I use them mainly for my hatchlings. The reason is I can keep humidity up better, have much better fitting lids to keep other animals out, with the sides being glass I can keep a much better eye out on if a hatchling is in trouble (like on it's back) or see just who is eating/how much they are eating/and what they are choosing to eat, I can see how active everybody is, I can see the shape substrate is in among other things I can better visually monitor with clear glass sides.

While I am watching my tortoises, they watch me. Which can be interesting and to often it does lead to spoiling. I mean who can ignore those stares?

I am one of those who does little usage of UV lights/CHE, but rather keep the whole room hot and use the light in rotation on other tanks. Still I do have temps variations within my glass tanks. They may not be big variations, but for me this system has worked. I usually have a couple of different substrates in that same tank.

An advantage I have with a glass tank is I can also use an UTH (under the tank) heater, which is really just a pad that attaches to the glass. I find this can help keep an spot of substrate warmer, which some tortoises seem to like, plus it's a helper with humidity. (and no, I have not had any tortoise hurt by the heat from one)

I always wondered why we think it's less space inside a glass tank, then in a plastic storage box?

As to glass being an issue, sorry with none of my tortoises have I saw this being an issue. I do usually have one side entire side with a background cover, but the other three sides are open.

A glass tank can be good, IF used properly and with the right animals, just like everything else.


----------



## -EJ

The TT 'study' was extremely flawed. He set out to make the project fail to illustrate his position. It wasn't so much as a study as it was an advertisement.

Vivariums are quite acceptable to accommodate any chelonian. In cooler climates vivariums are easier to maintain a good steady climate for the tortoise.

Vivariums are also nicer to observe the little guys/gals inside.

I have raised tortoises like snakes and lizards... no issues what so ever.



Watermelon said:


> I know that outdoor enclosures in sunny weather are best however for...


----------



## terryo

I don't have much to add to this, as everyone has said it all. I only have Cherry Heads, and Box turtles. Both need high humidity and low light. I have been using glass vivariums for over 30 years for my Box turtles, who have to stay in for the Winter for whatever reason, so that is why I started using them for my Cherry Heads. Growing up my Dad had all kinds of turtles..tortoises...in glass vivariums all over the house too. Planted vivariums look pretty, hold humidity well, and are able to mimic most environments. A vivarium can last for a long time with minimal care. All mine are outside for the Summer, and when the Cherries come in for the Winter that's what I keep them in.
"A specimen turtle is an animal in a cage on a shelf in a storage room somewhere. A pet turtle is a turtle you live with. A pet turtle you live with has a much more interesting and enjoyable environment. Watching you is part of their entertainment." (Tom...from Turtle Tails) I love this quote. 
Pio thanks you MIck!
I don't have much to say about TT, Sophie, as I'm not on there much.


----------



## lynnedit

Does it depend a bit on the kind of tortoise and what area of the country they are raised in? Seems a viv would be ideal for the tropical torts/turtles, perhaps a table better for the meds?


----------



## stells

Tom has had some Paracetamol and his fever has now subsided..



Tom said:


> Very good point Mick.
> 
> Watermelon, no one is at all offended by your question. Personally, I was happy about it as I'm eager to share what I have learned in the past few years and "get the word out". And Kelly (Stells) above is a very knowledgeable and accomplished tortoise keeper from YOUR side of the pond, her advice and opinion ought to carry more weight than ours over here in the states in my opinion. She raises some very attractive tortoises too.


----------



## Balboa

Late to the party here, everyone has pretty much covered it, and Ed nailed it.

I'll just add that if you read the fine print even the TT endorses properly built Vivs for "Tropical Forest" species. The table is for testudos. This tends to get applied to all tortoises with broad, brush strokes.

I've seen significant evidence that Leos and Sulcata are more of a "Tropical Forest" species in requirement than the "Desert" species they are usually treated as, hence the huge benefit seen from keeping them in vivs.

As Tom touched on, central heating and cooling (as is common in the US) really dries out a house. Radiative type heating, as is more common in Europe, seems to have less of this effect.


----------



## maggi

i have 2 horsefield russian tortoises and i have never kept them in a glass viv,they live and wander in my home but are outside on nice days in their pen,they have a lamp that they do use at their leisure,a tank is for fish or lizards not tortoises they roam free in the wild and i believe they have survived since time began,prehistoric times i believe.maybe i am doing things wrong,i do soak them in their own bath,and they seem quite happy xxx


----------



## HLogic

Maggi, don't fish & lizards 'roam' free in the wild? I think the overriding point is that depending upon the ambient environment of the keeper and the natural environment of the tortoise, aquaria, terraria, vivaria, tables, plastic storage bins, outside enclosures and other methods can be successfully adapted for the maintenance of tortoises - expense, hoop-jumping and other adjustments notwithstanding. Just as a perspective, most 'authorities' would consider free-roaming in the house among the least desirable methods...

For whatever method used, if it works for you, do so!


----------



## maggi

thank you hlogic,as i said i dont know if what i do is right and if its not i am open to critisism as we are all learners,but i dont want to learn the hard way.my reasons for the way things are is because i dont want a pet that i can only sit and admire from afar,tortoises are very intelligent and noone must tell me they dont understand when you talk to them,i call mine and they instantly show up,but i dont want to make a bad mistake with them and lose them .so any advice will be taken on board love.thanx


----------



## Saloli

i've used terrariums i generally design (not sure if thats is correct as i've said before i'm not a good speller) established system terrariums which use many species to cycle nitrogen and a few other elements like a natural ecosystem does. they can be used for Testudo but because drier enviroments slow down decomposition and cycling they need larger terrariums compared to similar sized forest dwellers. though my use of terrarium would include tortoise tables but only if they contain live plants and fungi. if not they are cages like any other but they wouldn't be established systems unless they cycle atleast some elements/nutrients. also as a side note generally barring a crash established systems don't usually need much cleaning.


----------

