# Female head-butting?



## otisthetortoise (Sep 15, 2016)

Hi.
Otis is a female tortoise; her egg batch was incubated to be so (slightly higher/colder incubation temperature, I can never remember which ). I know there's probably a chance she is male, but it's a very small chance. I don't know the scientifics but from the incubation, I can say I think she is female and I am fairly sure she is.
She is a year and a bit, and recently she has been displaying behaviour where she head butts certain objects. She is not doing so to get them out of the way (they are usually small and have a clear route around them), merely sniffing them out and head butting. She does it a few times then moves on unfazed.
I did a Google search and it confirmed my suspicion that this was male behaviour, usually shown for dominance or to mate. I found little stories about females, except when they were ready to lay (gravid) which is impossible in this case as Otis is so young and hasn't ever interacted with a male tortoise.
So - my main questions. Could Otis be male (despite the incubation to be female), or is this just behaviour that some females occasionally have? Do you have similar stories with female torts? 
I'd love her either way (male or female) but it would take some getting used to 
Thanks,
Olivia

*note
In hurriedness to post this, I just chose Tortoise Discussion, I don't know if there's a better fitting forum but feel free to, er, move it for me


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## JoesMum (Sep 15, 2016)

Hi

Would you like to post a photo of Otis's underside to show the plastron including the tail. We can have a look then to sex her/him. 

Otis would be far from the first "bred to be" that turned out to be the opposite. 

Females will head butt when being territorial, but it's more common in males.


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## Speedy-1 (Sep 15, 2016)

*She "should" be female , but there are no guarantees !*


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## otisthetortoise (Sep 15, 2016)

JoesMum said:


> Hi
> 
> Would you like to post a photo of Otis's underside to show the plastron including the tail. We can have a look then to sex her/him.
> 
> ...


Hi!
Here's some pictures. Sorry that she's grubby, she was half buried before noticing me and heading over 
It's night here in the UK so the lighting isn't good and she protested to being turned upside down, so I don't know how the quality turned out! Will try and upload better pictures tomorrow if these won't do.


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## otisthetortoise (Sep 15, 2016)

Speedy-1 said:


> *She "should" be female , but there are no guarantees !*


I'd love her either way but I do hope she's a female, it would be weird to imagine her as anything else, hah!


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## JoesMum (Sep 15, 2016)

I'm suspicious that you have a young male, the man who will know is @HermanniChris


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## dmmj (Sep 15, 2016)

unfortunately temperature incubation is far from an exact science it just guarantees a higher percentage of a certain gender but no guarantee that all the eggs will be a certain gender.


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## otisthetortoise (Sep 15, 2016)

@HermanniChris I guess it's in your hands, if you have the time to see this forum 
Also, if you need clearer pictures let me know.
Ooh, this is exciting! It will be weird thinking of Otis as a boy though


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## dmmj (Sep 15, 2016)

to my little eye it looks female but at that age that size they all sorts of do. It does look just too small the sex


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## HermanniChris (Sep 16, 2016)

Understanding temperature sex determination is far from a final verdict unfortunately and this of course means nothing is guaranteed. We also never really know what the eggs are experiencing down to the finest detail so any fluctuation at the right moment can sway the sex in either direction. However, female Testudo tortoises such as Hermann's can be very aggressive, so this ramming (it's not head butting) is normal still for either sex. It's simply a waiting game because the tortoise is still too young to sex.

I hope this helps. 

Chris


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## otisthetortoise (Sep 16, 2016)

HermanniChris said:


> Understanding temperature sex determination is far from a final verdict unfortunately and this of course means nothing is guaranteed. We also never really know what the eggs are experiencing down to the finest detail so any fluctuation at the right moment can sway the sex in either direction. However, female Testudo tortoises such as Hermann's can be very aggressive, so this ramming (it's not head butting) is normal still for either sex. It's simply a waiting game because the tortoise is still too young to sex.
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> Chris


Thank you so very much, Chris.
Sorry about the faulty terminology; thank you for correcting me there. I'm no expert and head-butting sort of fitted in my view, but I shall refer to it as ramming now. 
I suspected as much. I can't wait to see her grow a little more and reveal new things about herself, but for now, I'll take my mind off the whole gender issue as it really doesn't matter too much for me. 
Olivia


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## otisthetortoise (Sep 16, 2016)

Also, as ramming is a territorial response, or, it usually is, I'm thinking that Otis mistook the objects for other tortoises - is this likely?
She's rammed two objects. One was the toe, which is greenish stone, of a garden statue, and the other a bottle cap, a larger one that has a flippy lid, which was in her way. I've heard of tortoises "identifying" their owners' hands as "tortoises", when they are obviously not, so I don't think it is a case of bad eyesight (Otis has never demonstrated bad eyesight), rather her competing for space. I don't know if the whole identification thing is a rumour, though.
Sorry for the ramble, just a musing. She's never been aggressive toward me so at least I know she's comfortable. 
Olivia


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## JoesMum (Sep 16, 2016)

otisthetortoise said:


> Also, as ramming is a territorial response, or, it usually is, I'm thinking that Otis mistook the objects for other tortoises - is this likely?
> She's rammed two objects. One was the toe, which is greenish stone, of a garden statue, and the other a bottle cap, a larger one that has a flippy lid, which was in her way. I've heard of tortoises "identifying" their owners' hands as "tortoises", when they are obviously not, so I don't think it is a case of bad eyesight (Otis has never demonstrated bad eyesight), rather her competing for space. I don't know if the whole identification thing is a rumour, though.
> Sorry for the ramble, just a musing. She's never been aggressive toward me so at least I know she's comfortable.
> Olivia


I don't know about mistaken. Some of the things Joe rams look nothing like a tort. Fir example, our bright orange lawnmower and the wheelie bin )I think he just likes the very loud noise he can make with that  )


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## dmmj (Sep 16, 2016)

They ram dogs and cats & people & rocks if they don't want you in the area they're not shy about telling you


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