# Are the "old ways" really bad?



## Jacqui (Mar 3, 2012)

This morning a member made a statement that I took exception to, the following is a quote of that statement:

"The conflicting info that is out there can be confusing, but there is a good reason for it. Most of the tortoise keeping world has realized that the old way was wrong. So now we have those who still ignorantly argue for the old way..."

Now I admit, I am from the "old way". Most everything I do today, I was doing in 1989. So let's look at my "old way" of doing things shall we and debate each area...

"Old Way 1." Diet. I have always feed my tortoises fresh foods and tried to mimic what I could find that was natural to them. I have always believed the fresher the better, so grew what I could. I never believed in feeding them commercial food made for other animals.

"Old Way #2." Outside enclosures. I always had my turtles and tortoises out for every bit of time, as possible. I made permanent outside enclosures as large as I could and then kept them planted. When I first came out into the public online mainstream, I remember being made to feel guilty and a bad keeper because I had my outside enclosures with wire sides. I then fixed one with the "mandatory solid sides so as to not stress my poor tortoises". Guess what? My tortoises in a solid wall enclosure did not pace any less then in the wire walled ones. Where is the stress?

"Old way #3." Inside Enclosure. I once more had them as large as I could. I tried to inside also mimic natural as much as possible. I rarely used lights and did not believe in the super high temps or keeping them hot constantly. Lights when used where on for varying amount of time. Substrate was so they could dig down if they wanted and kept damp. Actually once more trying to mimic nature, some times it was allowed to be dry for a day or two, sometimes we had a heavy indoor "rain". I guess you could say inconsistent was a key idea, just as outside weather from day to day is a bit inconsistent. They all had a hide (either a half log or a plant pot) placed on the substrate (actually usually over the spot where I had an (UTH) under the tank heater attached and they all had a water dish. 

Many of my enclosures were aquariums (mainly 40 gal breeders). Once more when I first came back out being more publicly active, folks made me feel guilty about using those tanks. So the "bad tortoisekeeper" kept her mouth shut. These days, with this point and many others, I have become vocal that there is no one way to do anything and nobody should make you feel like it is their way or no way. Each of us need to look at our animals, ourselves, and our own environments and choose our own "right way".

"Old way #4." Hibernation. Now I use to hibernate all my tortoises and turtles that would do so naturally. Since that time, I have decided to only hibernate my native animals, who are outside and choose for themselves when and where to hibernate. My hibernation methods were "the box of shredded newspaper in the unheated closet" for the Desert tortoise and the frig method. 

"Old way #5" Research. The old way was a bit different from today's. I joined clubs all over the country in order to get their newsletters, I went to club meetings, I went to shows and talks, I wrote people and even called them. I went to libraries and bought shelves of books. Today, most of this can be done so much faster and easier thru this marvelous thing called the internet where now I can learn from more people all over the world. I believed then, as I believe now, you never ever stop looking, researching and tweaking your basics.

"Old Ways #6". Mixing species. As I did from the start, I still personally believe we should keep species separate from each other. I did cross that line once. I for several years had a paint turtle in with my red eared sliders.

These are some of my basic "old ways", which Tom thinks show my complete ignorance. Are my "old ways", which are also the "old ways" used by many other folks today, that bad? Tom points out in a later post the "old ways" mean hot lights and no water bowls. Sorry folks, but that is not the old ways, it is just but *one* set of two examples of some ways that folks kept their animals. It is wrong to lump all the "old ways" which include many things each of us are still doing today, under the label "old ways".

Yes some of our past tortoise and turtle keeping practices have been found to be faulty, some have been found to be a little off, and yet many are still valued practices today. However, don't make such blanketed statements. Along with that, keep in mind that each case needs to be looked at as an individual thing.


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## cdmay (Mar 3, 2012)

*I believed then, as I believe now, you never ever stop looking, researching and tweaking your basics.*

Jacqui, that above statement shows me that you possess the key factor in being a great keeper. Although all of us were new keepers at one time or another, not everyone realizes that we should never stop trying to learn more about our animals and improve in the way we care for them. 
I have made changes to how I've kept tortoises in a lot of ways and yet I have found that some things I've always done work really well for me and I won't change them. Some are 'old ways' and some are 'new ways'.
I've also listened to others and tried what they suggest from time to time. Sometimes their ideas work but on occasion their methods don't work for me. Nevertheless, reading about the natural history of an animal, corresponding with other keepers and even learning from others mistakes (and my own) are all ways that we can be better keepers.

But there is nothing more arrogant, pompous, irritating... and frankly stupid, than someone who pretends to have it all figured out and refuses to examine what they are doing every once in a while. Some project the idea that, "I don't do research 'cause I'm already a success'. This makes me crazy. Nobody is perfect and even if you are successful at breeding a certain species and have long term animals it is still likely that you may be able to do so a little better with some input from others or insight from a well documented study of the animals in the wild.

I don't care if you are 'old way' or 'new way'. It matters more to me that you are always wanting to do better.


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## Jacqui (Mar 3, 2012)

Carl, don't you also find trying some of the different ideas to be part of the reason you enjoy tortoise keeping? It's always a challenge, never becomes the boring same ole same ole. Also not just trying something new and if it doesn't work abandoning it altogether, but instead tweaking it, or adding another factor to what your experimenting with, or using it on another group of tortoises. I point to the fact that years ago, when I tried having my hingebacks outside during the summer, it failed miserably. Years later, I went back, did some tweaking and tried it again, this time it worked beautifully. Now I am expanding how many enclosures of them I have outside.Or the fact I spent years trying to locate some fresh figs. I had read how hingebacks loved them. Finally I got some plants to grow my own and then later Mark told me where I could find some. I bought several boxes of them and gave figs to my hingebacks with great anticipation. Would you believe it, not a single one even wanted to taste them.  The redfoots of course loved them.


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## JoesMum (Mar 3, 2012)

It's somewhat ironic such a rough ride that is given to people like you Jacqui, me and many others who have kept their torts very well for decades... Joe's been part of the family since 1970!



cdmay said:


> I don't care if you are 'old way' or 'new way'. It matters more to me that you are always wanting to do better.


Thank you! I couldn't agree more.


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## Tom (Mar 3, 2012)

This is a big load. You know darn well that we are not talking about your "Old Ways 1-6". This quote you used was a direct answer to a newbie who was told to keep her baby sulcata in a dry environment on sand or rabbit pellets. THAT is the old way for sulcatas and leopards and it IS wrong. Look at any sulcata book and they will all tell you that they come from a hot arid climate and that their natural climate should be simulated in captivity. They make no mention and no distinction that babies might need something different. Everyone on this forum KNOWS that is wrong. Even the people who like to argue with me and point out the possible exceptions still keep their babies well hydrated and use humid hide boxes and such. There is no arguing with the success of keeping them in any variation of the "new" way, vs. the total failure for many decades of keeping them the "old" way.

Don't forget that I was an "old way" keeper too for nearly two decades with sulcatas. That is how I know the "old way" is SOOOOO wrong. It is exactly the kind of re-examination of what we are doing here that Carl talks about that led me to this new knowledge. Frankly, my sharing it has helped a lot of people and a lot of tortoises.

I'm not talking about outdoor pens, mixing species, or hibernation, and you KNOW it. YOU KNOW IT!!! I am talking about the old style "beef jerkey makers" and their hot and dry baby dehydrating effect, VS. the new style of keeping them hydrated, warm and with some degree of humidity somewhere in the enclosure. And I'm not talking about forest species or box turtles or Testudo. The original post that started this was about SULCATAS.

Frankly I find it frustrating and irritating that you constantly want to argue over stupid irrelevant exceptions to the rule every time I try to help somebody new understand what is going on. I linked that new person to Kristina's Tortoise Basic Thread, which is fantastic, and to my Sulcata care sheet which many people have told me is working very well for them. Why are you contradicting me? Do you think she SHOULD keep her sulcata dry and on rabbit pellets or calci-sand? Of course you don't, so what is the point of this? Fight the people who are telling keepers to keep them the wrong way, and stop fighting me over irrelevant details and the possible exceptions that exist for EVERY rule.


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## Jacqui (Mar 3, 2012)

Tom it is your constant usage of things like "total failure" or blanket names like "Old Ways" that do cause me to remind folks, there are exceptions. I don't find exceptions to be stupid or irrelevant. I think we need to look at ALL the facts, not just the ones that favor our own approach and beliefs. 

You yourself in a later post on the same thread, brought up the hot lights and no water bowls also as the "old way". So you can add to the items falling under your term as "old Ways", but I am not allowed too?


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## StudentoftheReptile (Mar 3, 2012)

Its all relative. I respective both of you, Jacqui and Tom. I don't know what other thread that started this, and I don't care, honestly. I think it's just a miscommunication and different viewpoints of what "old ways" mean.

My $.02. Someone's "old ways" may not be the same as the next person's. Obviously, just because it was done a certain way 20 yrs ago doesn't mean it's automatically wrong today. I think that's Jacqui's point.

Likewise, it's not any one specific element that is necessarily wrong (Ex: high basking temps, excess protein, etc). Which is Tom's point. What we're finding out is that the combination of certain practices can contribute to unhealthy animals.


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## Tom (Mar 3, 2012)

My problem is that some people like to argue with the good guys, and it serves no useful purpose to point out possible minute exceptions to the rule when it would be nice to just be able to get the general rule (don't dehydrate your babies) across. I'm trying to tell noobs not to use calci-sand and a hot dry desiccating enclosure, and Jacqui, or people like Jacqui want to come along and argue over fine points and my usage of generalities or "blanket statements". There is no point in bombarding a new person with a three page diatribe of what was, what is, and what may be, along with a million technicalities and possible exceptions. Isn't it enough to simply say, "Hey, your old book is wrong. Don't keep your baby sulcata on sand or rabbit pellets and DO give them a friggin' drink of water every day." That is enough for me. Makes sense. Easy to follow. Instead, Jacqui likes to come along and confuse the whole issue for people. In the end, she mostly agrees with what I'm telling people as far as not keeping a pair of adult male russian tortoises together, or don't dehydrate your babies, etc..., but there are people out there, like Jacqui, who are just looking to argue or be offended.

Jacqui and everyone else knows darn well where I stand on the 6 old style points that she listed. Good lord, I have almost 9700 post explaining every aspect of it in great detail. At NO time have I ever come out and said that EVERY single old school method is all wrong. That would be stupid. I don't think that. Everyone knows I don't think that. Why do we have to have an irritating, argumentative thread elaborating that I don't think that. I think it is easy to understand for anyone reading that other thread exactly which old-school method was being shot down. Its the SAME friggin' old school method that I am ALWAYS trying to shoot down. DON'T KEEP YOUR BABY IN A BEEF JERKEY MAKER!!! It has nothing to do with everyone having to do everything MY way. That is insulting and wrong. I constantly compliment other people who are getting good results using any method. I even have complimented my own attackers on their methods and results in the past. I promote the methods of others who show good results, even though their methods differ from mine. I'm sick of being accused of this "Tom's way or no way". It is a blatant lie and my history on this site easily proves it. I'm tired of being attacked, insulted and made fun of, for sharing my findings and research and promoting good tortoise husbandry.

The old way of housing hatchling and baby sulcatas that is listed in EVERY single sulcata book that I have ever read is WRONG. This is a fact. It is a disservice to tortoises to suggest otherwise, or confuse the issue with pointless arguments.


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## wellington (Mar 3, 2012)

May I just say. First, Jacqui, I am not sure your way is consider the "old way". I thought the old way was hot and dry. Also years ago, the only food I remember anyone suggesting, for just about any animal, was lettuce it sounds to me like you have been doing the "new" "right" ( whatever you want to call it)way for a long time.
Second, I'd like to say: This constant every so often, Arguing is very confusing for newbies. The last thing you want to do, is turn newbies to look some place else. What ever you want to call it, there is still a lot of "bad" "old" info out there. My leopard is proof. Because of this forum, and yes "Tom", I was able to turn things around. I do promote "Tom's" way. It works, he has and shows proof, it is easy to do and easy to explain. Other then the original bad advice I had gotten from the breeder, "Tom's" way is the only way I know, and have my own proof of it working for me. If I had come across someone elses thread, with DETAILED info and proof of it working, well I may had done that instead. I had got burnt once, wasn't going to just take advice again without some kind of proof and DETAIL EXPLAINATION IS KEY. Of course now that I have been a 
member for a while. I have learned that there are several ways to accomplish the same results. I think that is great. It is always nice to have choices. I choose to stick with what is working for me and to direct people to read "Tom's" threads and have even caught some slack for doing so. However it is a good way, there is proof, details and even pictures. Why shouldn't members be able to get ALL the good advice on here and then choose what works for them? Everyone is working for the same thing, smooth healthy babies to grow up 
smooth healthy adults. If your(anyone)way works, then share it with everyone and keep sharing it with everyone. I mean no disrespect to anyone on TFO ever. I think this is a great forum of people. I am glad there are such dedicated people, so willing to help and share. Let's stop the arguing and knit picking and keep sharing and educating so all the correct info and "ways" gets out there.


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## cdmay (Mar 3, 2012)

Tom said:


> This is a big load. You know darn well that we are not talking about your "Old Ways 1-6". This quote you used was a direct answer to a newbie who was told to keep her baby sulcata in a dry environment on sand or rabbit pellets. THAT is the old way for sulcatas and leopards and it IS wrong. Look at any sulcata book and they will all tell you that they come from a hot arid climate and that their natural climate should be simulated in captivity. They make no mention and no distinction that babies might need something different. Everyone on this forum KNOWS that is wrong. Even the people who like to argue with me and point out the possible exceptions still keep their babies well hydrated and use humid hide boxes and such. There is no arguing with the success of keeping them in any variation of the "new" way, vs. the total failure for many decades of keeping them the "old" way.
> 
> Don't forget that I was an "old way" keeper too for nearly two decades with sulcatas. That is how I know the "old way" is SOOOOO wrong. It is exactly the kind of re-examination of what we are doing here that Carl talks about that led me to this new knowledge. Frankly, my sharing it has helped a lot of people and a lot of tortoises.
> 
> ...



I think I must have missed something that went on before. I suddenly feel left out...
Anyway, the hot and dry things Tom is talking about is of course, NOT the thing to do. I guess you could say that is an "old way' that was wrong. Same goes for dog food (and I suspect Mazuri too but that is opening a whole other can o worms), super heat lamps and a bunch of other ideas that might have seemed like a good idea at the time but weren't really.
I have tremendous respect for both Tom and Jacqui and I feel that both of them know their subject well. Venturing a guess that maybe this is a case of simple misunderstanding.
Plus, I am just happy it doesn't involve me and _The NERD!_


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## jaizei (Mar 3, 2012)

> So the "bad tortoisekeeper" kept her mouth shut. These days, with this point and many others, I have become vocal that there is no one way to do anything and nobody should make you feel like it is their way or no way. Each of us need to look at our animals, ourselves, and our own environments and choose our own "right way".



Great post Jacqui. 








Tom said:


> My problem is that some people like to argue with the good guys...



This is about where you lose people. So anyone who thinks differently is, by default, the bad guy? 




Tom said:


> I'm tired of being attacked, insulted and made fun of, for sharing my findings and research and promoting good tortoise husbandry.



1. Why do you care?
2. I think you bring a good deal of it on yourself. Stop trying to be *Tom, Tortoise Expert* and work on being Tom, Tortoise Keeper.

A wise (more experienced) man once said: _I'm a tortoise keeper... just like you. I'm guessing the only difference between us is the time kept and the numbers of animals. I always say that if I get to the level that I actually think I'm better than another... slap me._


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## Jacqui (Mar 3, 2012)

Tom said:


> My problem is that some people like to argue with the good guys,



Ummm so sorry Tom, I must have missed your white hat. So does that make all the folks who do things different then you, the "bad" guys??



Tom said:


> and it serves no useful purpose to point out possible minute exceptions to the rule



Sometimes "minute" exceptions are not so small. Plus we don't always agree the same things are indeed small. 




Tom said:


> Isn't it enough to simply say, "Hey, your old book is wrong. Don't keep your baby sulcata on sand or rabbit pellets and DO give them a friggin' drink of water every day."



But you did not make this comment, did you?. This comment is very detailed not so general as saying the "old way", which includes so many more points.



Tom said:


> In the end, she mostly agrees with what I'm telling people as far as not keeping a pair of adult male russian tortoises together



I guess this is another one of those tiny points I keep making in your opinion Tom, but no I do not agree with that blanket comment either. Let me make it clear once more, hopefully this time you will understand what I am saying. I have kept male Russians together myself before. I did not have any trouble with them the several times I have done so. I advise folks they can try it, that sometimes it does work out. I do also add, they should always be ready to separate them IF and when they do decide not to get along. 



Tom said:


> but there are people out there, like Jacqui, who are just looking to argue or be offended.



As compared to you, when you act all godlike and get angered, when folks give an opinion on care the opposite of yours? I am looking to get all points across and allow the people to decide what works best for them, their animals, their environment. I don't preach a do it my way or only my way will work attitude.



Tom said:


> Jacqui and everyone else knows darn well where I stand on the 6 old style points that she listed.



Really, the new person from that post knew that? Wow are you really that amazing and powerful that a brand new to tortoises person knows your thoughts and which of the "old ways" you are only referring too?




Tom said:


> Good lord, I have almost 9700 post explaining every aspect of it in great detail.



Hey me too! As we just pointed out in the above comments about two male Russians living together, it still did not mean you knew where I stood on the subject.


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## Tom (Mar 3, 2012)

Carl, I think you already know that the respect is mutual. You have been doing it for a long time and you are one of the old school keepers that came up with a lot of the new innovation. I've looked up to you since I joined this forum.

Even though Jacqui still feels the need to do this "thing" with me, and I'm complaining about it, I still have tremendous respect for her as a keeper. I think she knows this, but everyone else should know it too. I do not think of you (Jacqui) as one of the perpetrators and current promoters of the "old way" that I spend so much time fighting. I said it in the wordy post above. I do not think ALL of the old ways are bad. Just this one in reference to how the lady on the other thread was told to keep her sulcata baby. You don't show a whole lot about how you keep yours and what methods you use, so I really don't know what you are doing. I know darn well your sulcata babies are not under a hot bulb with no water and rabbit pellets for substrate...


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## Jacqui (Mar 3, 2012)

Tom said:


> I know darn well your sulcata babies are not under a hot bulb with no water and rabbit pellets for substrate...



What, did you peak???   (Just so you all know as much as Tom and I do, I do currently have three sweet little sulcatas with pretty scutes that Tom just recently gave me. I also know, that in the past I was criticized and told I favored Tom because of this. How people believe this, when I publicly will argue against Tom on some of his points has always amazed me, but they did. Which is why, I keep my mouth shut about these guys). As Tom has said about me and I have said about him many times, I actually like and respect Tom on many levels. 





cdmay said:


> . I guess you could say that is an "old way' that was wrong. Same goes for dog food (and I suspect Mazuri too but that is opening a whole other can o worms), super heat lamps and a bunch of other ideas that might have seemed like a good idea at the time but weren't really.



Hey, do not forget the monkey chow, too!  I think it will be extremely interesting to see how tortoise keeping will have evolved in another 20 years. which of our beliefs today, will be found to be outright wrong, slightly off, or completely correct. Mazuri is one area especially I am curious about in the future.

As for the Nerd comment, I so am not gonna go there.


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## Yvonne G (Mar 3, 2012)

I think the old way really depends upon how you choose to use it. I used to keep all my indoor tortoises on alfalfa pellets with no water dish and maybe a soak every couple weeks. I have one of the bumpiest 5 year old leopards (raised from an egg) out there. I think that if I still chose to use the alfalfa pellets, but soaked him every day, he might not have ended up so bumpy. So all of the old ways together = bad, but taken one at a time and used with a new way or two, might not be so bad.

I am raising two SA leopard tortoises. I got them when they were a month or two old. When they're in for the winter, they are on moistened cypress mulch, with a seed warming strip under the substrate and under the hide. They have a MVB over the middle of their habitat and a water dish at one end. They eat like crazy. All of this is the new way, with the exception I don't spray them. They are pretty smooth at almost a year and a half.

And now, with my moderator hat on, may I say that the topic of this debate is, "Are the old ways really bad?" Its not a Jacqui or a Tom topic. Or a Jacqui's way or a Tom's way topic. But a topic about the old ways versus the new ways.


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## dmmj (Mar 3, 2012)

Can't you feel the love and respect?


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## Arizona Sulcata (Mar 3, 2012)

*RE: Are the "old ways" really bad?*

Alright I've read everything and I'm settling this nice and simply. As long as you both raise healthy tortoises who cares? Not everyone has to do the same exact things to raise a healthy tortoise and I'm bot going to get into specifics. Just some constructive criticism, Tom you do come on a little strong and in my opinion do a lot of judging on here BUT I respect you as a breeder. Jacqui I haven't had the pleasure of getting to know you, it seems as though you are a great tortoise caretaker as well! Can't we all just enjoy our same hobby together and accept that we have different ways of doing things? Let's all hold hand and make up now... Haha go torts!


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## Jacqui (Mar 3, 2012)

dmmj said:


> Can't you feel the love and respect?


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## Tom (Mar 3, 2012)

jaizei said:


> > So the "bad tortoisekeeper" kept her mouth shut. These days, with this point and many others, I have become vocal that there is no one way to do anything and nobody should make you feel like it is their way or no way. Each of us need to look at our animals, ourselves, and our own environments and choose our own "right way".
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Exactly my point. Jacqui does NOT think differently. She does NOT advocate beef jerkey makers. And so no, she is NOT a bad guy. The bad guy is the pet store jackass that keeps hatchlings on rabbit pellets with no water bowl and argues with his customers that they get all the water they need from their lettuce that he feeds them every other day.

... and you show me the post where I claim to be an expert. I can show you lots of posts, both new and old, where I claim to be a student, still learning, researching, and looking for info from those who know more than me. You apparently have built me up into something in your own mind. You apparently see me in a way that I do not see myself. And don't think I don't see your jabs all over the forum too. I just choose not to argue with you, for the good of the forum.


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## cdmay (Mar 4, 2012)

Thought about some of the Old Ways that used to seem like a such a great idea, but in time proved to be not so good.
1. *Rabbit pellets as a substrate*.
Much has already been stated about this.
2. *Heat lamps in small places.* 
In addition to being a danger from overheating they tend to create a very dry and unhealthy environment even for species that come from dry climates. 
3. *Feeding dog food (and most cat foods) to get protein to a tortoise*.
Too high in fat, are greasy, messy and probably not at all good for tortoises. Tortoises that have been fed lots of dog food over a period of years are often extremely obese and many develop problems in walking.
4. *Monkey biscuit*.
This stuff was really popular in the late 70's and early 80's. I think it was made by the Zu Preem company that made all kinds of foods for zoo animals. Although tortoises loved it this seems to be one food item that really contributed to pyramiding. Not sure if it was the calcium to phosphorus (or whatever) ratio or what but man did it create some lumpy animals for keepers who previously never had such issues. When the monkey biscuit was removed from the diet normal growth returned.
5. *Dirt floor shelters*.
The idea of a strong permanent outdoor (or indoor) shelter for tortoises seems like a good idea. But unless the entire bedding AND dirt floor gets dug out and replaced from time to time serious fungal/shell rot issues will emerge. This is especially true when several adult tortoises share the same shelter for months on end. What happens is that the ground becomes saturated with feces and urine and this creates a bacterial oven that your animals are sitting in for days at a time. It seems to be worst when the floor material is plain dirt.

There are more things I could probably think of but these came to mind first.


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## dmmj (Mar 4, 2012)

Mmmm monkey biscuits, do they taste like monkeys?


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## Jacqui (Mar 4, 2012)

dmmj said:


> Mmmm monkey biscuits, do they taste like monkeys?



Well what else would they taste like?


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## Tom (Mar 4, 2012)

Carl, Tell me more about #5. Which species is this a problem for? I have found sulcatas to be exceptionally resistant to shell rot, but I am also in the desert. Is this an issue for sulcatas in FL and other humid climates? Logic, based on how they live in the wild, tells me that it really shouldn't be prone to shell rot, however, the sulcata book I've just been reading does mention that they abandon old burrows and excavate new ones from time to time...

I know of CDTs that have used the same self dug burrows for years, likewise with no problems.

Also, "bio-active" substrates have been gaining popularity. I'm wondering if the dirt eventually establishes enough beneficial bacteria to balance out all the waste products. Sort of like a fish tank and its biological filter...

Educate me. Hit me with your knowledge and experience.


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## yagyujubei (Mar 4, 2012)

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."


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## cdmay (Mar 4, 2012)

Tom said:


> Carl, Tell me more about #5. Which species is this a problem for? I have found sulcatas to be exceptionally resistant to shell rot, but I am also in the desert. Is this an issue for sulcatas in FL and other humid climates? Logic, based on how they live in the wild, tells me that it really shouldn't be prone to shell rot, however, the sulcata book I've just been reading does mention that they abandon old burrows and excavate new ones from time to time...
> 
> I know of CDTs that have used the same self dug burrows for years, likewise with no problems.
> 
> ...



Tom,
The species of tortoise that I have seen a lot of fungal issues with after spending long periods of time in communal hides are, elongateds, red-footed, leopards, radiateds, greeks and hermanni. It probably occurs with all species but these are the ones I've seen the problem with myself. The shell rot/fungal problems were in situations where the keeper had built some sort of permanent shelters for their animals to retreat to. In every case though there were several (or more) animals going into the shelter each night for months on end and in most cases, for years. The bedding material in these hides was sometimes hay or cypress mulch but usually after a period of time it would be reduced to just plain dirt. The most commonly seen issue was moderate to heavy fungal infestations with virtually every tortoise sharing the shelter being affected to one degree or another. 
But the problem came, not from building a shelter for the tortoises, but rather from leaving the same substrate in place and never changing it or never moving the shelter. So I build my shelters so that they can be picked up and moved to a 'fresh' location every couple of weeks.
While you may not see shell fungus in sulcatas in California that is not the case in Florida. Sulcatas will get fungus just like any other tortoise here.
Regarding native burrowing species in the U.S., gopher tortoises are prone to fungus depending on the location of their burrow and rainfall. Sometimes wild gopher tortoises are found with fungus all over their carapace and plastron. But don't forget, while gopher and desert tortoises may live in the same burrow for years at a time, there is usually only a single animal inhabiting that burrow. So the commensals living down there with the tortoise can keep up with the waste.

Hit you with my knowledge and experience? Ha!, how about my size 13 shoe?


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## dmmj (Mar 4, 2012)

Could the fungal problems be the result of higher humidity in florida?


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## Tom (Mar 4, 2012)

While I have no personal experience, a tegu breeder in FL told me he couldn't dig down two feet at his place unless he wanted a pond. He told me this when I was telling him about my underground boxes. He also told me how wood will rot there in a very short period of time. Just the opposite of here. Our water table is at 428 feet. Burying wood in the ground here is a good way to preserve it and protect it from the "elements".

I wonder what effect all this will have on tortoise shells in burrows with dirt floors.


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## EKLC (Mar 4, 2012)

Around here the gopher tortoises burrows are pretty much in white sand. I imagine that keeps the fungus at bay a bit


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## StudentoftheReptile (Mar 5, 2012)

EKLC said:


> Around here the gopher tortoises burrows are pretty much in white sand. I imagine that keeps the fungus at bay a bit



Yeah, around here, its mostly dry dirt and sand.


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## Neal (Mar 5, 2012)

Jacqui, I can understand your frustration, and I think the underlying cause of your frustration might be the generalities and blanket statements. It leaves a lot to personal interpretation, and of course, we all don't interpret things the same. So, what is general and normal to one tortoise keeper, might be something totally different to another. But with that said, we all take different approaches on the forum and no one's is better than the other, just some of us would like a little more clarification, which is a matter of personal preference. 

After reading over this thread I feel a lot better as I had also taken exception to bashing of the "old ways". As you know we have raised smooth healthy tortoises on dry substrate which, I guess, is an "old idea". Our dry substrate certainly wasn't rabbit pellets (don't even think I've ever said 'rabbit pellets' until now), and we gave them plenty of water, so they weren't ever given the chance to dehydrate. I'm glad for the clarification here.


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## Jacqui (Mar 5, 2012)

Neal said:


> Jacqui, I can understand your frustration, and I think the underlying cause of your frustration might be the generalities and blanket statements. It leaves a lot to personal interpretation, and of course, we all don't interpret things the same.



That is exactly what I was saying. Blanket statements just do not work well, in my opinion. It's like saying fruit, when I really only mean lemons.


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## Neal (Mar 5, 2012)

Jacqui said:


> Blanket statements just do not work well, in my opinion.



I definitely agree with you on this. If you create rules and draw lines in the sand with broad strokes, so to speak, you may overlap some good principles.

But, I do also understand why people would not want to bombard a newbie with all the specifics, it's just I don't think specifics with good tortoise husbandry are particularly cumbersome to begin with. 

Again, just a matter of personal perspective and is not to say that my perspective is any better.


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## StudentoftheReptile (Mar 5, 2012)

Neal said:


> But, I do also understand why people would not want to bombard a newbie with all the specifics, it's just I don't think specifics with good tortoise husbandry are particularly cumbersome to begin with.



Coming from former experience in a LPS, I think you pretty much HAVE to be specific with newbs, for several reasons. If you only offer advice in broad, vague terms, it will likewise be interpreted in a broad fashion, sometimes incorrectly, with possibly detriment to the animal's health. If the person is assertive enough, they will continue to ask questions and you'll have to be more specific anyway. My experience is to provide them with a buttload of information from the getgo, and they have plenty of data to choose from.


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## dmmj (Mar 5, 2012)

Jacqui said:


> Neal said:
> 
> 
> > Jacqui, I can understand your frustration, and I think the underlying cause of your frustration might be the generalities and blanket statements. It leaves a lot to personal interpretation, and of course, we all don't interpret things the same.
> ...


Aren't lemons fruit?


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## StudentoftheReptile (Mar 5, 2012)

dmmj said:


> Jacqui said:
> 
> 
> > It's like saying fruit, when I really only mean lemons.
> ...



Yes. That's the point Jacqui is trying to make. If we're talking about specifically about lemons, it would be unhelpful and likely inaccurate for her to make a "blanket statement" about all fruit that may not actually be true for all fruit, only lemons.

Likewise, if we're talking about the "old way" of keeping baby sulcatas in hot, dry habitats with alfalfa pellets for substrate and no water, and fed only lettuce...an example of a blanket statement would be that ALL old ways of keeping tortoises is bad. I think we know that's not necessarily true. There are many specific practices that been used for decades and still work well for many keepers and their tortoises. That's Jacqui's point: just because it is a so-called "old way" doesn't mean its obsolete or wrong to do.


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